# Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings



## ag75

Well this is exciting.









Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro


Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.



audiobro.com







It has now been released. Follow discussions starting on page 116 of this thread:






Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings


How about... “Never, oh! never, nothing will die; The stream flows, The wind blows, The cloud fleets, The heart beats, Nothing will die.” by Alfred Lord Tennyson. :)




vi-control.net





Great live stream showing off the sound of the library.





Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings


I think you may get that with “spikes” in the CC1 data, little irregularities, perhaps placed around note changes I mean that will benefit the natural feel of the performance. I actually do the same with SCS, although it's less for fingered clarity so much as counteracting the tendency of notes...




vi-control.net


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## Batrawi




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## constaneum

Curious about the crossgrade. would like to hear an announcement trailer made using Modern Scoring Strings.


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## ag75

-Smart and automatic scale runs looks awesome. And octaves!


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## constaneum

cant wait ! can't wait ! looking forward to the crossgrade.


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## CT

Oh no why didn't I wait to spend money....


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## muziksculp

Finally


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## ag75

Mike T said:


> Oh no why didn't I wait to spend money....


My thoughts exactly...


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## bryla

5 gigs of ram for first violins!


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## lettucehat

Man, OT must have known this was coming when they put Special Bows 50% off. This thing's gonna have legato for _sul_ everything! Well 200 bucks went OT's way, oh well.


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## constaneum

actually, i wonder how big is the size of the entire library. 131GB or 191 GB? The expanded legato isn't part of the main library? hmm...


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## zimm83

ag75 said:


> Well this is exciting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com


Polyphonic legatos or not ? Seems so powerful !


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## Fenicks

I'm chiming in just to feel part of the excitement.


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## CT

All right, gotta hear it before I get my hopes even a little up.


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## ag75

zimm83 said:


> Polyphonic legatos or not ? Seems so powerful !


Not sure. Maybe part of the expanded legato:



Modern Scoring Strings Library Size:
About 131GB with lossless compressed audio files (approximately 160GB uncompressed). 140GB required during installation for the entire 130GB library.

Modern Scoring Strings Expanded Legato Library Size:
About 60GB with lossless compressed audio files (approximately 80GB uncompressed). 70GB required during installation for the entire 60GB library.


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## NoamL

The integration of expression maps / articulationID is pretty nice, wish more devs would provide a turnkey solution to that (like UACC). For everything else.. well I have to wait to hear it...


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## lettucehat

Mike T said:


> All right, gotta hear it before I get my hopes even a little up.



Yeah, it's all about that legato, in this age of CSS / Performance Samples. No audio demos until release is pretty rough. I truly am looking to pay for an exhaustive, all-in-one strings platform that's going to sound top-notch for years, but there's a decent chance Vista takes a chunk of that money before this releases. I at least know how that legato sounds, albeit in alpha stages. I've always been higher on LASS than most people so I have faith in them.


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## Raphioli

I hope they actually upload walkthroughs and demos before BF ends.
Or my funds are going to BF.

MSB looked good on paper but the sound wasn't my taste.
So I'll definitely need to hear it.


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## Laddy

This looks really good on paper. Fingers crossed.


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## CT

Yes. Please have more than two demos. And don't upload the walkthroughs in mono.


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## Markus Kohlprath

So the only question that matters until release: How does this beast sound?


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## zimm83

Msb features polylegato in the description...Not Mss....hum...


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## lettucehat

I mean... would they *drop* polyphonic legato after LASS, NI SS, Genesis, and MSB?


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## constaneum

Mike T said:


> Yes. Please have more than two demos. And don't upload the walkthroughs in mono.



make sure the walkthrough is showing out of the box sound too.


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## zimm83

lettucehat said:


> I mean... would they *drop* polyphonic legato after LASS, NI SS, Genesis, and MSB?


It's the Best feature for me...fingers crossed


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## Raphioli

ag75 said:


> Modern Scoring Strings Expanded Legato Library Size:
> About 60GB with lossless compressed audio files (approximately 80GB uncompressed). 70GB required during installation for the entire 60GB library.



I'm wondering if the Expanded Legato Library is a separate purchase from the Full library.
If it is, I'm assuming its going to be a library which costs like $1500 when getting both


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## jcrosby

🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯


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## lettucehat

If the separate Legato Sordino library is any indication, then yeah. I'm guessing under $800 for normal full, 300 for the extended legatos. Loyalty discounts for LASS users spanning 11 years of purchasing (from 1200 down to current 400 BF deal) is going to be controversial. Do you give them MSS for 200? 250? Honestly it suggests the price tag will be higher than 800... it just depends who they want to piss off less


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## ag75

I’m anxious to see what the loyalty discount is going to be. “LASS Full owners will be happy!”


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## constaneum

ag75 said:


> I’m anxious to see what the loyalty discount is going to be. “LASS Full owners will be happy!”



yea. This. I'm guessing $199 for crossgrade.


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## Raphioli

constaneum said:


> yea. This. I'm guessing $199 for crossgrade.


My price guess for the crossgrade is around $399 or $400. Full library probably at $900 to 1000 without intro price.

So, does the person who guesses the closest get the library for free? =D


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## mojamusic

this is exciting! Looking forward to hearing demos!


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## tcb

interested me


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## Vladimir Bulaev

*



Shorts – Martelé, staccato, staccatiossimo, spiccato. Depending on the section (Vlns vs Vlas), with combined divisi playing at the same time, you can have up to 256 round robins for the violins, and 16 for all the other sections. Powerful play-assist, key switching, CC, and host automation options allow for changing these in a way that suits your work style.

Click to expand...

* 256 round robins? What does it mean? A typo?


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## axb312

Awesome feature set. Lets hope it sounds great and is affordable...


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## Zee

bryla said:


> 5 gigs of ram for first violins


I just don't understand that, the whole LASS library in size is about 15GB,did they record new samples ?


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## Minsky

ag75 said:


> Well this is exciting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com


Amazing!


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## Vladimir Bulaev

There doesn't seem to be anything about controlling vibrato.


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## Raphioli

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> There doesn't seem to be anything about controlling vibrato.


If you look at the screenshot, there is a vibrato knob.

But yes, there was no mention of it in text on their page.


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## axb312

One possible issue I see is the intro pricing not being attractive. MSB for eg. had an intro price of 599 USD and is now selling at 399 USD.

I for one am content to wait and watch.


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## Batrawi

_*during MSS recording sessions*_

*Viola lead player:* "I'm so exited to start my solo session"

*Audiobro:* "go home..."


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## alchemist

So pumped to hear how this sounds!


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## Raphioli

Batrawi said:


> _*during MSS recording sessions*_
> 
> *Viola lead player:* "I'm so exited to start my solo session"
> 
> *Audiobro:* "go home..."


Hmm, I wonder if that means that the sound of the strings will be similar to LASS.
Because they remixed the solo viola in LASS to match the sound of MSS right?
If the sound is matchable just by remixing, it means the sound is close enough.


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## Toecutter

This announcement is giving me some weird flashbacks. Let's hope it's not another disappointment like Modern Scoring Brass was. After all the buzz words, hype and promises to revolutionize brass forever, the sound was VERY underwhelming. No surprise MSB faded into oblivion.


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## Raphioli

Toecutter said:


> This announcement is giving me some weird flashbacks. Let's hope it's not another disappointment like Modern Scoring Brass was. After all the buzz words, hype and promises to revolutionize brass forever, the sound was VERY underwhelming. No surprise MSB faded into oblivion.



Thats exactly what crossed my mind, which is why I said it looks good on paper, earlier.
But then again, strings and brass are different and their LASS did have great reputation.


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## constaneum

Raphioli said:


> My price guess for the crossgrade is around $399 or $400. Full library probably at $900 to 1000 without intro price.
> 
> So, does the person who guesses the closest get the library for free? =D



How $399 gonna make us existing owners of LASS Full happy? ahhaa


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## constaneum

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> There doesn't seem to be anything about controlling vibrato.



probably that's where the expanded Legato Libraries comes in with various recorded vibrato levels.


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## Raphioli

constaneum said:


> How $399 gonna make us existing owners of LASS Full happy? ahhaa



Well they did record everything from scratch except the solo viola.
Don't forget, they have real divisi for all sections. Thats like double the effort compared to other regular string libraries.
So $200 might be too low, even for current LASS owners. I'd be worried that Audiobro might go bankrupt if the price was around $200.

But of course LASS owners would be happy, even happier if it was $100 lol


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## constaneum

Raphioli said:


> Hmm, I wonder if that means that the sound of the strings will be similar to LASS.
> Because they remixed the solo viola in LASS to match the sound of MSS right?
> If the sound is matchable just by remixing, it means the sound is close enough.



I'm curious with the sound too. Since it's mentioned 4 mics mixes, how does the existing Solo Viola match into the Stage, Surround and Full Mix. via their smart reverb mix ? hmmm


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## Vladimir Bulaev

There is no love for the viola.


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## Toecutter

Raphioli said:


> Thats exactly what crossed my mind, which is why I said it looks good on paper, earlier.
> But then again, strings and brass are different and their LASS did have great reputation.


You can't survive from reputation alone, there are way many better options at lower prices now. LASS showed its age after a while. Apart from a few die-hard fans, most users moved on. I stopped using LASS a long time ago when I got Berlin Strings. CSS was the final nail in the coffin. Afflatus is very tempting.

From what I can gather, MSS is built up from LASS samples. Thanks but I'm not impressed, no matter how *modern, glorious, velvety smooth, powerful and hair-raising *Audiobro claims to be. MSB was the same deal and we know how that turned out.


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## Jaap

Now this is really something to look forward to! I still love and use LASS for it's own unique sound, quality and setup and reading all these new features, I am really getting excited


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## Batrawi

Toecutter said:


> From what I can gather, MSS is built up from LASS samples.


No. If you go to my previous post, only solo viola samples are common. Otherwise MSS samples are all new.


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## jcrosby

VI-Control - Where people complain before there's even a demo and the price is still unknown.


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## chrisr

Toecutter said:


> From what I can gather, MSS is built up from LASS samples.



That's funny I was reading it as all _new_ samples except for the lead viola.

Owning all the LASS strings, I'm a fan, and I want this to be stellar, but as others have said the main thing that's going to matter when this drops in the coming weeks is the sound. To that end, I hope that Audiobro have put together a decent number of demos/walkthroughs - although I think that many people will get off the fence one way or the other in the first 10-20 seconds.

If Audiobro were to buck the trend such that the first bars of MSS we all heard were a beautiful, soft adagio then I'd be delighted for them.


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## sinkd

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> 256 round robins? What does it mean? A typo?


[4 (edited to correct my mistake)] divisi sections with 4 round robins each yields 256 permutations: 1111, 1112, 1113, 1114, 2111, 2112, 2113, etc.


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## Toecutter

Batrawi said:


> No. If you go to my previous post, only solo viola samples are common. Otherwise MSS samples are all new.








LASS 3 - will there be all new samples?


Hi there, Audiobro is pretty darn good about keeping a lid on things but has anyone heard if LASS 3 will be GUI upgrades or ALL new samples (I have to think they have learned a TON in the decade since the original release)? My gut says it will be GUI improvements only. :( (I haven't looked...




vi-control.net





It reads to me that while it has new content, it's built up from LASS.




jcrosby said:


> VI-Control - Where people complain before there's even a demo and the price is still unknown.



Not complaining, just giving my honest opinion as a LASS owner.


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## Batrawi

Toecutter said:


> LASS 3 - will there be all new samples?
> 
> 
> Hi there, Audiobro is pretty darn good about keeping a lid on things but has anyone heard if LASS 3 will be GUI upgrades or ALL new samples (I have to think they have learned a TON in the decade since the original release)? My gut says it will be GUI improvements only. :( (I haven't looked...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It reads to me that while it has new content, it's built up from LASS.


that may have been the original plan based the old thread you're referencing, but they changed it. Easy proof, just compare the divisi structure between both libraries and you can tell there is no way these could be the same samples


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## Batrawi

sinkd said:


> 3 divisi sections


just for sake of accuracy, it's 1 full section split into 2 divisi


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## Saxer

I bought their Scoring Brass in presale... and I never used it.


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## mjsalam

Do you think purchasing LASS full now would be unwise? I don't want to miss out on BF deals - I've been eying a number of string libraries (CSS, Afflatus etc) ...ugh.

Edit: seeing the comments on their Modern Scoring Brass definitely gives me pause.


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## sinkd

Batrawi said:


> just for sake of accuracy, it's 1 full section split into 2 divisi


Yes, thanks, I was thinking there might be a solo overlay, but I see now it's A/B in each. Edited my other post.


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## jamwerks

That was their first shot at Brass, and the whole concept of using only solists and centered-recording for MSB was a mistake imo. But they delivered lots of arts and was seeming usable (though I didn't buy).

With Strings I don't think they'll get this wrong, and I like center-recording for Strings, as I like to change out the Vl. II's & Celli position wise. The whole-divisi thing is un-necessary imo, but if the sound is good, it'll be great. Lot's of interesting features apparently!


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## zolhof

Toecutter said:


> This announcement is giving me some weird flashbacks. Let's hope it's not another disappointment like Modern Scoring Brass was. After all the buzz words, hype and promises to revolutionize brass forever, the sound was VERY underwhelming. No surprise MSB faded into oblivion.



You forgot to add "in my opinion". Not a disappointment at all to me. MSB is the only brass library I own that gives me the perfect balance of control and playability to dial in all the nuances I need. And that's coming from a hardcore Sample Modeling user.

Here's a rough no-bullshit snippet from a mockup I'm working on. You can't get more exposed than that. If you know the source material, go ahead and have a listen:



MSB sends shivers down my spine every time I play it and that's enough for me. The Intuition patches are fantastic, I hope MSS has something similar. I absolutely appreciate user feedback, especially the negative ones, and hardly if ever call someone out, but what you said is simply not true.


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## mushanga

Saxer said:


> I bought their Scoring Brass in presale... and I never used it.


Would be interested to hear why you have found no use for the library?


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## Toecutter

zolhof said:


> If you know the source material, go ahead and have a listen


What source material?


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## Scamper

zolhof said:


> Here's a rough no-bullshit snippet from a mockup I'm working on. You can't get more exposed than that. If you know the source material, go ahead and have a listen:




I still find it baffling, that they didn't put out more demos for MSB. A demo like that would have given a very different and for my taste better impression of the library.

Hoping for the best with MSS, because the features of the engine do seem pretty neat.


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## Tremendouz

Toecutter said:


> What source material?


It's from Medal of Honor 

That mockup sounds amazing btw


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## Wunderhorn

With Century Strings 2.0 on a great sale as well as Afflatus and some others, it is difficult to decide whether to wait for an attractive "crossgrade" price (I feel the word 'crossgrade' eludes to a more expensive price than if they would have said 'upgrade') or to jump ship and go with one of the current state-of-the-art libraries that are on attractive sales.

It would help if at least the pricing was announced now.

Of course we can wait another year (not that we suddenly cannot make music with an older library) and see them laid out on BF sales altogether.


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## holywilly

Saxer said:


> I bought their Scoring Brass in presale... and I never used it.


+1


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## sinkd

zolhof said:


> You forgot to add "in my opinion". Not a disappointment at all to me. MSB is the only brass library I own that gives me the perfect balance of control and playability to dial in all the nuances I need. And that's coming from a hardcore Sample Modeling user.
> 
> Here's a rough no-bullshit snippet from a mockup I'm working on. You can't get more exposed than that. If you know the source material, go ahead and have a listen:
> 
> 
> 
> MSB sends shivers down my spine every time I play it and that's enough for me. The Intuition patches are fantastic, I hope MSS has something similar. I absolutely appreciate user feedback, especially the negative ones, and hardly if ever call someone out, but what you said is simply not true.



Great mockup. I really like MSB as well, but it does have a learning curve. And a processor hit in VEPro that I am a little bit worried about with MSS. Hoping the cross-grade loyalty pricing is attractive since I was a LASS pre-order customer in 2009.


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## Raphioli

jamwerks said:


> That was their first shot at Brass, and the whole concept of using only solists and centered-recording for MSB was a mistake imo. But they delivered lots of arts and was seeming usable (though I didn't buy).
> 
> With Strings I don't think they'll get this wrong



I have similar feelings.
They have more experience with strings and on top of that, LASS 2.5 has good reputation.

I think there's going to be people torn between spending their budget on blackfriday sales or to just wait and spend on MSS.
Not having any demos, walkthroughs or even a simple trailer is going to make this decision hard for some.


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## Toecutter

Tremendouz said:


> It's from Medal of Honor
> 
> That mockup sounds amazing btw



Thanks. Yeah this is a perfect example of knowing your library and running with it, good job @zolhof 



Scamper said:


> I still find it baffling, that they didn't put out more demos for MSB. A demo like that would have given a very different and for my taste better impression of the library.


The lack of better demos, particularly user demos like the one here, didn't inspire any confidence. Not hating, everything I heard until now sounded bad, my OPINION.


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## Casiquire

I didn't think MSB had a bad reputation, just not much of one. It doesn't seem to spark much interest here for some reason.

Anyway this is quite the announcement! I think i need to lie down 😆


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## jamwerks

Casiquire said:


> I didn't think MSB had a bad reputation, just not much of one. It doesn't seem to spark much interest here for some reason.


Yeah wasn't much talked about here. Not sure what that might mean in terms of total sales though...


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## LamaRose

Why are they waiting to post some demos/examples until the release? And why not list the full price/cross grade prices now?


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## Casiquire

LamaRose said:


> Why are they waiting to post some demos/examples until the release? And why not list the full price/cross grade prices now?


Probably because a lot of things aren't ready or sorted out yet, but they want to let us know it's coming so we don't blow it all on BF sales. Even without demos, we got way more information than we did about CSW's similar "save your BF money" announcement.


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## ism

The Sul Tasto legato is very exciting. I mean, I just picked up the OT special bows. But it's not really something I could ever get enough of.

Especially from the folks who brought us Genesis (which is mind blowing). 

I'm already excited for sul tasto lines with Genesis.


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## Raphioli

Casiquire said:


> but they want to let us know it's coming so we don't blow it all on BF sales.



Pretty hard to not go all in with BF sales lol

Even a simple scale played with a legato patch would be great to listen to, to check if the timbre fits your taste and also to see the quality of the legatos.


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## muziksculp

60 GB Expanded Legato Library. I wonder what this adds to the MSS core library ?


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## NeonMediaKJT

neat.


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## Eptesicus

Toecutter said:


> This announcement is giving me some weird flashbacks. Let's hope it's not another disappointment like Modern Scoring Brass was. After all the buzz words, hype and promises to revolutionize brass forever, the sound was VERY underwhelming. No surprise MSB faded into oblivion.



yeh...the solo viola just being a rehashed version from LASS is ringing some alarm bells.

But i'm open to it being impressive. Genesis is very good so fingers crossed.


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## Raphioli

muziksculp said:


> 60 GB Expanded Legato Library. I wonder what this adds to the MSS core library ?


They have a comprehensive chart on their website which shows what's included in the expansion.
The red dots are what the expansion includes.


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## Garlu

Wow... really looking forward to hearing the demos!!! Exciting times!!!


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## ansthenia

Audiobro giving the finger to my homie solo viola


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## Eptesicus

Raphioli said:


> They have a comprehensive chart on their website which shows what's included in the expansion.
> The red dots are what the expansion includes.



Why only do scales in the extra articulations for just the cello in the solo instruments : / ?


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## ag75

lettucehat said:


> If the separate Legato Sordino library is any indication, then yeah. I'm guessing under $800 for normal full, 300 for the extended legatos. Loyalty discounts for LASS users spanning 11 years of purchasing (from 1200 down to current 400 BF deal) is going to be controversial. Do you give them MSS for 200? 250? Honestly it suggests the price tag will be higher than 800... it just depends who they want to piss ex





Toecutter said:


> You can't survive from reputation alone, there are way many better options at lower prices now. LASS showed its age after a while. Apart from a few die-hard fans, most users moved on. I stopped using LASS a long time ago when I got Berlin Strings. CSS was the final nail in the coffin. Afflatus is very tempting.
> 
> From what I can gather, MSS is built up from LASS samples. Thanks but I'm not impressed, no matter how *modern, glorious, velvety smooth, powerful and hair-raising *Audiobro claims to be. MSB was the same deal and we know how that turned out.


it might not be for you then. LASS and CSS are apples and oranges In my opinion. I own and use them both but in very different situations. You could never get CSS to sound like LASS but you can get LASS to sound very close to CSS. Again this is just an opinion.


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## Tatu

Poor violists.. :(


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## Old Timer

Excuse my ignorance but what is all this about LASS solo viola?


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## Casiquire

Where are all these disgruntled MSB users everyone's suddenly talking about? I don't remember any hate for it at all. Did it just fly under my radar?


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## Casiquire

Old Timer said:


> Excuse my ignorance but what is all this about LASS solo viola?


The solo viola is built from original LASS recordings, not a new MSS recording


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## NoamL

Tatu said:


> Poor violists.. :(



Swing and a Hindemith


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## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> The solo viola is built from original LASS recordings, not a new MSS recording



Why ?


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## Casiquire

Toecutter said:


> You can't survive from reputation alone, there are way many better options at lower prices now. LASS showed its age after a while. Apart from a few die-hard fans, most users moved on. I stopped using LASS a long time ago when I got Berlin Strings. CSS was the final nail in the coffin. Afflatus is very tempting.
> 
> From what I can gather, MSS is built up from LASS samples. Thanks but I'm not impressed, no matter how *modern, glorious, velvety smooth, powerful and hair-raising *Audiobro claims to be. MSB was the same deal and we know how that turned out.


MSS seems to be entirely newly recorded, with the exception of the solo viola


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## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Why ?


Idk, I didn't make it 😆 but knowing the importance of scripting and editing I'm holding out judgment until I hear it. The solo strings had a good sound overall, just a very timid performance.


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## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Idk, I didn't make it 😆 but knowing the importance of accepting and editing I'm holding out judgment until I hear it. The solo strings had a good sound overall, just a very timid performance.



Lol.. I know.  

It's puzzling to me why he would decide to not record a new Solo Viola, maybe he didn't want to deal with a Violist, and thought the old one would do the job ? what other reason can it be ?


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## Toecutter

Casiquire said:


> MSS seems to be entirely newly recorded, with the exception of the solo viola


That's still not clear to me after re-reading this thread from 2018 https://vi-control.net/community/threads/lass-3-will-there-be-all-new-samples.74558/

Things could have changed as pointed by @Batrawi. If it's in fact newly recorded samples, Audiobro has my attention again. I expect more than TWO bad demos this time XD


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## Eptesicus

Toecutter said:


> That's still not clear to me after re-reading this thread from 2018 https://vi-control.net/community/threads/lass-3-will-there-be-all-new-samples.74558/
> 
> Things could have changed as pointed by @Batrawi. If it's in fact newly recorded samples, Audiobro has my attention again. I expect more than TWO bad demos this time XD



To be fair to MSB, i thought the demos sounded amazing....but there were only two of them and they were both quite similar in style....and then everything else i heard from actual users was disappointing.


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## Paul Jelfs

Guy Rowland , who is an active user on here, did a great walkthrough of MSB, and explained how to use the functions properly. 

It seems to be one of those libraries that can deliver incredible results, but you have to put a lot of work in to VARIOUS CCs to get it sounding that good .


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## Wunderhorn

Paul Jelfs said:


> It seems to be one of those libraries that can deliver incredible results, but you have to put a lot of work in to VARIOUS CCs to get it sounding that good .



That's the thing. On such an all new library I would not want only good sound and the articulations I'd wish for but also ease of use and anything that would help speed up the workflow. Having to fiddle a lot with CCs etc. is exactly what we'd like to avoid as much as possible by being well balanced and usable right out of the box.


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## AEF

Intrigued by this to say the least.


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## Vladimir Bulaev

ag75 said:


> it might not be for you then. LASS and CSS are apples and oranges In my opinion. I own and use them both but in very different situations. You could never get CSS to sound like LASS but you can get LASS to sound very close to CSS. Again this is just an opinion.


Then at least help this person. https://vi-control.net/community/th...-the-tone-of-css-to-lass.101408/#post-4693724

And show us this magic.


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## JohannesR

So hard to come up with fresh viola jokes these days, but Audiobro rarely disappoints!


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## Minsky

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> 256 round robins? What does it mean? A typo?


That's a LOT of birds!


----------



## Minsky

Toecutter said:


> This announcement is giving me some weird flashbacks. Let's hope it's not another disappointment like Modern Scoring Brass was. After all the buzz words, hype and promises to revolutionize brass forever, the sound was VERY underwhelming. No surprise MSB faded into oblivion.


What was bad about MSB? Can you be more specific? Thanks!


----------



## Saxer

Saxer said:


> I bought their Scoring Brass in presale... and I never used it.





mushanga said:


> Would be interested to hear why you have found no use for the library?


Good question. I wasn't convinced by the tone and the workflow. Samplemodeling and Performance Samples was easier to play. And I had CPU overloads in Logic (armed track only). But listening to @zolhof I think I should give it a new try.



zolhof said:


> You forgot to add "in my opinion". Not a disappointment at all to me. MSB is the only brass library I own that gives me the perfect balance of control and playability to dial in all the nuances I need. And that's coming from a hardcore Sample Modeling user.
> 
> Here's a rough no-bullshit snippet from a mockup I'm working on. You can't get more exposed than that. If you know the source material, go ahead and have a listen:
> 
> 
> 
> MSB sends shivers down my spine every time I play it and that's enough for me. The Intuition patches are fantastic, I hope MSS has something similar. I absolutely appreciate user feedback, especially the negative ones, and hardly if ever call someone out, but what you said is simply not true.



Sounds really good! Well done!


----------



## Minsky

zolhof said:


> You forgot to add "in my opinion". Not a disappointment at all to me. MSB is the only brass library I own that gives me the perfect balance of control and playability to dial in all the nuances I need. And that's coming from a hardcore Sample Modeling user.
> 
> Here's a rough no-bullshit snippet from a mockup I'm working on. You can't get more exposed than that. If you know the source material, go ahead and have a listen:
> 
> 
> 
> MSB sends shivers down my spine every time I play it and that's enough for me. The Intuition patches are fantastic, I hope MSS has something similar. I absolutely appreciate user feedback, especially the negative ones, and hardly if ever call someone out, but what you said is simply not true.



Thanks for this... because I really want to like it. I'm considering buying it ...and MSS too.


----------



## Casiquire

Minsky said:


> What was bad about MSB? Can you be more specific? Thanks!


Right, I'm not seeing much from actual users. I think just the fact that it takes some tweaking, but a lot of great libraries do. The important thing is knowing that's what it'll take before buying it


----------



## Saxer

Waiting for a mockup of "She was a fair MoSS"!


----------



## Minsky

Old Timer said:


> Excuse my ignorance but what is all this about LASS solo viola?





Old Timer said:


> Excuse my ignorance but what is all this about LASS solo viola?


The solo viola is not a new recording, it's from LASS.


----------



## muziksculp

So.. can a single old Viola ruin a brand new, and fresh Strings Library ?


----------



## AEF

The accompanying articulation sets / expression maps makes the library ten times easier to use. Don’t have to really think about what CC does what and when. Really nice feature. Its all about the sound at this point.


----------



## Toecutter

Minsky said:


> What was bad about MSB? Can you be more specific? Thanks!


I'm listening to the demo tracks again and it's almost giving me a headache. MSB sounds like a swarm of angry bees, can't you hear it? Overly thin, bright and synth-like. Poles apart from the rich, complex tone I heard in @zolhof's mockup, as if two different libraries were used. Have you done any processing or layered the trumpets with other libraries?


----------



## dxmachina

Hi folks! Sebastian from Audiobro here. It's hard to put into words how excited we are for this release and just seeing the VI-C topic. Thought I might help answer a few questions I saw pop up... (sorry in advance - I don't have answers regarding pricing or demos _today_).



> I mean... would they *drop* polyphonic legato after LASS, NI SS, Genesis, and MSB?



We would not. Polyphonic legato (with Auto Divisi) is included and it is enabled in all our main patches. Note-overlap-mono-legato is also a click (or CC/KS) away for those that prefer that or want to work with split sections on separate tracks.

But thank you, we should make this clearer on our site.



> There doesn't seem to be anything about controlling vibrato.


Full manual vibrato control (including senza vibrato) is available for all the instruments in the main library (aside from the remixed LASS Viola) when playing Arco. 

Again, we'll make this clearer on the site.



> MSS seems to be entirely newly recorded, with the exception of the solo viola



That is correct. These are _completely_ new recordings (except for the solo viola, which is a much warmer mix of the LASS Viola). I saw some questions as to why we're including the LASS Solo Viola. It was definitely not the plan going in... but we happened to try layering the LASS Viola with Modern Scoring Strings' Viola section and it was just too good not to include.



> 60 GB Expanded Legato Library. I wonder what this adds to the MSS core library ?



The expanded library adds full legato support (leg, port, gliss - all with speed control) for Sordino, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont articulations. The main library has the sustain version of these articulations. 

Hope I got most of the questions. We know it ultimately comes down to hearing Modern Scoring Strings, but if there are other questions/thoughts I'd be happy to comment in the meantime.

Regards,
Sebastian


----------



## richhickey

dxmachina said:


> Hi folks! Sebastian from Audiobro here.
> 
> Hope I got most of the questions. We know it ultimately comes down to hearing Modern Scoring Strings, but if there are other questions/thoughts I'd be happy to comment in the meantime.
> 
> Regards,
> Sebastian



Very exciting. What are the section sizes?


----------



## molemac

I love the idea of Lass and the autoarranger is so inspiring to play string chords and staccatos with , hearing the seperate intruments rather than a build up of samples like most other libraries but I have always ended up reaching for other libraries because of the sound being a little harsh, eq or not. Is MSS a big step up on the warmth front and were the new strings recorded in the same studio ? Are we going to have access to a completely dry sound as well as room mikes etc... I am very excited as I only just returned to using Lass as one of the first uptakers, having bought every other string library available but still being unsatisfied in reaching the holy grail. Could this be it ??????


----------



## chapbot

Toecutter said:


> This announcement is giving me some weird flashbacks. Let's hope it's not another disappointment like Modern Scoring Brass was. After all the buzz words, hype and promises to revolutionize brass forever, the sound was VERY underwhelming. No surprise MSB faded into oblivion.


My thoughts exactly. And "estimated release by end of 2020" actually means 2022 Q3 🤣


----------



## Raphioli

Thanks for chiming in.



dxmachina said:


> We know it ultimately comes down to hearing Modern Scoring Strings


Glad you're aware of that 



dxmachina said:


> but if there are other questions/thoughts I'd be happy to comment in the meantime.


Thanks and yes.
How many dynamic layers are there for each articulation?
I saw the amount of RRs on your website but nothing about dynamic layers, unless I'm missing something.


----------



## chapbot

Casiquire said:


> I didn't think MSB had a bad reputation, just not much of one. It doesn't seem to spark much interest here for some reason.
> 
> Anyway this is quite the announcement! I think i need to lie down 😆


When I saw Divisi I immediately thought of you ♥️


----------



## chapbot

Casiquire said:


> Where are all these disgruntled MSB users everyone's suddenly talking about? I don't remember any hate for it at all. Did it just fly under my radar?


Personally I remembered all the hype and immediately clicked on demos and thought "yuck." I mean it really seemed shockingly bad at the time.


----------



## chapbot

dxmachina said:


> Hi folks! Sebastian from Audiobro here. It's hard to put into words how excited we are for this release and just seeing the VI-C topic. Thought I might help answer a few questions I saw pop up... (sorry in advance - I don't have answers regarding pricing or demos _today_).
> 
> 
> 
> We would not. Polyphonic legato (with Auto Divisi) is included and it is enabled in all our main patches. Note-overlap-mono-legato is also a click (or CC/KS) away for those that prefer that or want to work with split sections on separate tracks.
> 
> But thank you, we should make this clearer on our site.
> 
> 
> Full manual vibrato control (including senza vibrato) is available for all the instruments in the main library (aside from the remixed LASS Viola) when playing Arco.
> 
> Again, we'll make this clearer on the site.
> 
> 
> 
> That is correct. These are _completely_ new recordings (except for the solo viola, which is a much warmer mix of the LASS Viola). I saw some questions as to why we're including the LASS Solo Viola. It was definitely not the plan going in... but we happened to try layering the LASS Viola with Modern Scoring Strings' Viola section and it was just too good not to include.
> 
> 
> 
> The expanded library adds full legato support (leg, port, gliss - all with speed control) for Sordino, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont articulations. The main library has the sustain version of these articulations.
> 
> Hope I got most of the questions. We know it ultimately comes down to hearing Modern Scoring Strings, but if there are other questions/thoughts I'd be happy to comment in the meantime.
> 
> Regards,
> Sebastian


Thanks so much for chiming in. Wouldn't it be amazing if you accidentally hit a wrong key and accidentally posted a short demo, accidentally 🤣


----------



## Nando Florestan

The spelling on the product description page is exactly as good as the recordings in LASS. I think the same person must have done both!


----------



## Pablocrespo

dxmachina said:


> Hi folks! Sebastian from Audiobro here. It's hard to put into words how excited we are for this release and just seeing the VI-C topic. Thought I might help answer a few questions I saw pop up... (sorry in advance - I don't have answers regarding pricing or demos _today_).
> 
> 
> 
> We would not. Polyphonic legato (with Auto Divisi) is included and it is enabled in all our main patches. Note-overlap-mono-legato is also a click (or CC/KS) away for those that prefer that or want to work with split sections on separate tracks.
> 
> But thank you, we should make this clearer on our site.
> 
> 
> Full manual vibrato control (including senza vibrato) is available for all the instruments in the main library (aside from the remixed LASS Viola) when playing Arco.
> 
> Again, we'll make this clearer on the site.
> 
> 
> 
> That is correct. These are _completely_ new recordings (except for the solo viola, which is a much warmer mix of the LASS Viola). I saw some questions as to why we're including the LASS Solo Viola. It was definitely not the plan going in... but we happened to try layering the LASS Viola with Modern Scoring Strings' Viola section and it was just too good not to include.
> 
> 
> 
> The expanded library adds full legato support (leg, port, gliss - all with speed control) for Sordino, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont articulations. The main library has the sustain version of these articulations.
> 
> Hope I got most of the questions. We know it ultimately comes down to hearing Modern Scoring Strings, but if there are other questions/thoughts I'd be happy to comment in the meantime.
> 
> Regards,
> Sebastian


Hi Sebastian, nice to have you here, I wanted to ask if the ostinato engine works with long(ish) notes, I asked Andrew in the audiobro forum, if there is a way to rock back and forth between connected notes, or have the same note repeating but no only with staccato or spiccato.

I don´t know if I am making myself clear, you could see what I mean with the violas at the beginning of mahler´s 9th


----------



## Raphioli

@dxmachina
I have a few additional questions I'd like to ask. (in addition to my previous questions .)

Does MSS have real rebow samples (sustain pedal triggering a rebow is common)?
Or maybe simulation of it?

Another question is, does MSS have RRs for legatos?
I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, since I've only heard of 2 libraries with it out of so many string libraries out there.
Was just curious.

Thanks!


----------



## dxmachina

> Very exciting. What are the section sizes?



16/14/12/10/8 each split in half and recorded discretely (in situ)...
so: 8+8 / 7+7 / 6+6 / 5+5 / 4+4



> Is MSS a big step up on the warmth front and were the new strings recorded in the same studio ?Are we going to have access to a completely dry sound as well as room mikes etc...



Yes, the out of the box sound is a _significant_ step up in warmth from LASS. But the MSS Close mics can still give you the detailed close/tight sound when you need it. It's not recorded in the same studio that LASS was and does not contain the stridence that often needs reigning in for LASS.



> How many dynamic layers are there for each articulation?


This is difficult to answer succinctly - it varies. For something like Violins legato, each divisi section has something similar to this: 4 layers NV, 4 layers Vib, 4 layers NV (accented), 4 layers Vib Accented, 4 layers Vib with feathered/cresc in. Dynamic layers are generally increased from LASS overall across all articulations.



> Wouldn't it be amazing if you accidentally hit a wrong key and accidentally posted a short demo, accidentally 🤣


My 7-year old is doing her Alfred's Piano practice on the cellos right now. I could hit "record." 



> Hi Sebastian, nice to have you here, I wanted to ask if the ostinato engine works with long(ish) notes, I asked Andrew in the audiobro forum, if there is a way to rock back and forth between connected notes, or have the same note repeating but no only with staccato or spiccato.



Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm 100% following. But if you're asking if they are fluid connected notes (as opposed to stringed together shorts) that is _exactly_ what the ostinato engine is. We recorded decent lengths of these passages as well (including multiple dynamics and takes as RRs). It sounds natural - because it is.



> Does MSS have real rebow samples (sustain pedal triggering a rebow is common)?


Yes, real rebow legato / same-note-legato. You can use pedal or our "Repeat" key, which is shockingly useful for fast shorts as well.



> does MSS have RRs for legatos?


Not really, but since the portamentos (actually all the transitions) are speed-controllable, it's actually pretty trivial to get RR transition variations like this. One wonders if this couldn't be automated in the future for RR legato.


----------



## Raphioli

dxmachina said:


> 16/14/12/10/8 each split in half and recorded discretely (in situ)...
> so: 8+8 / 7+7 / 6+6 / 5+5 / 4+4
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the out of the box sound is a _significant_ step up in warmth from LASS. But the MSS Close mics can still give you the detailed close/tight sound when you need it. It's not recorded in the same studio that LASS was and does not contain the stridence that often needs reigning in for LASS.
> 
> 
> This is difficult to answer succinctly - it varies. For something like Violins legato, each divisi section has something similar to this: 4 layers NV, 4 layers Vib, 4 layers NV (accented), 4 layers Vib Accented, 4 layers Vib with feathered/cresc in. Dynamic layers are generally increased from LASS overall across all articulations.
> 
> 
> My 7-year old is doing her Alfred's Piano practice on the cellos right now. I could hit "record."
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm 100% following. But if you're asking if they are fluid connected notes (as opposed to stringed together shorts) that is _exactly_ what the ostinato engine is. We recorded decent lengths of these passages as well (including multiple dynamics and takes as RRs). It sounds natural - because it is.
> 
> 
> Yes, real rebow legato / same-note-legato. You can use pedal or our "Repeat" key, which is shockingly useful for fast shorts as well.
> 
> 
> Not really, but since the portamentos (actually all the transitions) are speed-controllable, it's actually pretty trivial to get RR transition variations like this. One wonders if this couldn't be automated in the future for RR legato.


Amazing!
Every answer you've provide to my questions only gave me positive impressions.

Thanks for your time!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

muziksculp said:


> 60 GB Expanded Legato Library. I wonder what this adds to the MSS core library ?


I'm guessing...60 GB


----------



## Casiquire

I love the answers here too. My impression regarding MSB is similar to LASS. They both provide this top layer that's a little extreme (the "sizzle" knob, or high dynamics in LASS) which are intended to be used very sparingly, but with the ultra hyped-up cinematic styles we're used to in this particular niche, the instinct is to turn the dynamics up and turn that sizzle on all the time and ignore the lower layers. I'm glad the microphone positions and warmer room act as a way of addressing this, hopefully not at the cost of those extreme dynamics when needed. I'm so excited to learn more!


----------



## RonOrchComp

_Modern Scoring Strings

Full owners there will be a special *LASS Loyalty Cross-Grade Program*.* When MSS is released, you will simply be able to log into our store to see your LASS Loyalty savings… LASS Full owners will be happy!_


That seems like a nice way to take care of your customers. So who's going for the *LASSLCGP*? 

This is all new recordings, right?


----------



## lettucehat

Casiquire said:


> I love the answers here too. My impression regarding MSB is similar to LASS. They both provide this top layer that's a little extreme (the "sizzle" knob, or high dynamics in LASS) which are intended to be used very sparingly, but with the ultra hyped-up cinematic styles we're used to in this particular niche, the instinct is to turn the dynamics up and turn that sizzle on all the time and ignore the lower layers. I'm glad the microphone positions and warmer room act as a way of addressing this, hopefully not at the cost of those extreme dynamics when needed. I'm so excited to learn more!



Agree with all of this. I kind of went with the crowd and ignored MSB after a while. But if this turns out great it might worth taking another look at MSB. Could simply be a case of too few demos, too few people making the leap, and a death spiral it didn't deserve. Maybe some will pick it up at the lower price and give us some demos like the one we saw earlier in the thread.


----------



## Casiquire

RonOrchComp said:


> So who's going for the LASSLCGP?


----------



## artomatic

Haven't used LASS in quite a while.
Really looking forward to the demos!


----------



## Go To 11

In excitement for this I went back to MSB after a year and tried it again, and no matter how many reverbs I throw at it that room just isn't brass friendly and I can't get even close to my Century Brass or CSB which just instantly sound so so much better out the box. It's one of my big library regrets. Here's hoping strings fare better in that space. I so want this to be good, given how extensively they've sampled the strings, and I wish them all the luck with it. Thankfully strings are less about the room than brass is, to my ears.


----------



## zolhof

Toecutter said:


> Have you done any processing or layered the trumpets with other libraries?



No, it's all stock MSB. I purposely disabled everything so you could listen to the raw sound of MSB and the built-in reverb. I've used Tpt 1 in Bb, Tpt 1 in C, Tpt 2 in Bb and Piccolo Tpt 2. The Piccolo is doubling Tpt 1. In the full mockup, I try to match the sound of AIR Lyndhurst with Symphony 3D and a bunch of bx_console N in each channel. It's the closest thing I have for that Neve 88R sound (placebo? hehe). Here's Trumpet 1:







velocity - note accent
CC1 - dynamics (ppp through fff)
CC2 - vibrato
CC4 - connection between legato notes
CC11 - tiny volume adjustments for specific situations, I never use CC11 for dynamics
I also use CC14 (sizzle control, from silky smooth to extreme brassy) and CC15 (tighten knob for shorts) a lot.



Saxer said:


> I had CPU overloads in Logic (armed track only). But listening to @zolhof I think I should give it a new try. ... Sounds really good! Well done!



Hi Saxer, thank you for your kind words. You should definitely give it another shot. The Intuition patches are much smoother and playable out of the box. The only thing I miss is the repetition key, which is one my favorite things in MSB -- also featured in MSS woo-hoo! Try this: load the main patch, put the modwheel all the way up, select the shorts articulation and set Shorts Selection to Inverted Velocity. You can also adjust the slider to your liking. With practice you can play some very convincing fanfares. I love to mix it with BBCSO and Berlin pre-recorded repetitions (MSB always on top) for the extra oomph. They blend quite nicely.

I don't like the full mix and use the Close and Surround microphones instead. I find they help to bring out the body of the instruments that is sorta lost in the full mix. Regarding CPU usage, it got a lot better after patch 1.2, I also run a purged template in VEPro, I think it helps ease the load.






I hope that helps and you find some use out of MSB. If this library is any indication of how the new strings are going to perform and work, we are in for some serious ass kicking. Sorry to hijack the thread, back to MSS.


----------



## Dima Lanski

Go To 11 said:


> In excitement for this I went back to MSB after a year and tried it again, and no matter how many reverbs I throw at it that room just isn't brass friendly and I can't get even close to my Century Brass or CSB which just instantly sound so so much better out the box. It's one of my big library regrets. Here's hoping strings fare better in that space. I so want this to be good, given how extensively they've sampled the strings, and I wish them all the luck with it. Thankfully strings are less about the room than brass is, to my ears.


Do you have Sizzle on? I don't own MSB myself, but this seems to be a common issue with users' mockups. 

Anyway, I'm really conflicted about MSB. There's a demo I really like called Reaching The Summit. And now zolhof's demo, which is great too. Also, full divisi and overall versatility is very attractive. But then there's other users' demos and especially Guy Rowland's walkthrough which seems a bit underwhelming. So, is this because the library requires a lot of tweaking while writing, or is it just some special knowledge of what to tweak once and then it's a smooth ride from there?


----------



## Go To 11

Dima Lanski said:


> Do you have Sizzle on? I don't own MSB myself, but this seems to be a common issue with users' mockups.
> 
> Anyway, I'm really conflicted about MSB. There's a demo I really like called Reaching The Summit. And now zolhof's demo, which is great too. Also, full divisi and overall versatility is very attractive. But then there's other users' demos and especially Guy Rowland's walkthrough which seems a bit underwhelming. So, is this because the library requires a lot of tweaking while writing, or is it just some special knowledge of what to tweak once and then it's a smooth ride from there?





Dima Lanski said:


> Do you have Sizzle on? I don't own MSB myself, but this seems to be a common issue with users' mockups.
> 
> Anyway, I'm really conflicted about MSB. There's a demo I really like called Reaching The Summit. And now zolhof's demo, which is great too. Also, full divisi and overall versatility is very attractive. But then there's other users' demos and especially Guy Rowland's walkthrough which seems a bit underwhelming. So, is this because the library requires a lot of tweaking while writing, or is it just some special knowledge of what to tweak once and then it's a smooth ride from there?


I'm also impressed by those demos. And, it's far more than just the sizzle knob. I wouldn't usually bother, but it was so painful having expected so much, and then being so disappointed by MSB, that I only share this so others look beyond the extensive sampling specs and consider the most important deciding factor of all - the sound of the room. It's this reason that Sample Modeling and any other modelled brass doesn't work and why some do straight out of the box. The room they chose is just not brass friendly, it's that simple. The samples sound technically correct, but completely lifeless.


----------



## haydn12

I have MSB and it currently is my main brass library. Love the trombones and french horns. I do run into some problems with the trumpets not being big enough. They don't seem to cut through enough so I have to layer with another library. MSB seems to be a memory hog for me even with the purging. Another issue I run into is crackling with tempo changes in Cakewalk. No crackling as long as I bounce the tracks.


----------



## eqcollector

Can't wait for MSS! 

Regarding brass, the moment I bought MSB it is the moment I left CSB and Spitfire Brass libraries in general. 
It's my go-to brass library as it's the most flexible and neutral in tone + shorts are the most perfect thing that exists in the sampling world (literally adaptable to basically ANY situation).


----------



## CT

I would really love to hear more demos of MSB from users, and maybe from Audiobro itself, which would be a sensible move in the lead up to MSS.


----------



## Mike Fox

It has a big knob. That's all that matters.


----------



## eqcollector

Here's one of the tracks that I did where 100% of the brass is MSB.


----------



## Old Timer

I really do love the original LASS. These days, I also appreciate how light it is on CPU and RAM. But I'm very much looking forward to hearing the new version.


----------



## Batrawi

@dxmachina is the normal legato slurred/fingered or bow-changing?


----------



## sinkd

Wunderhorn said:


> That's the thing. On such an all new library I would not want only good sound and the articulations I'd wish for but also ease of use and anything that would help speed up the workflow. Having to fiddle a lot with CCs etc. is exactly what we'd like to avoid as much as possible by being well balanced and usable right out of the box.


The thing I find with libraries that are usable "right out of the box" is that I quickly discover that usability to have a fairly specific vector. What I find with MSB (which is probably very similar to what we will have with MSS), is that when I hear a brass library vibe that I like, I can get pretty close if not spot on with MSB, because it has multiple versatilities, which requires multiple controls. 

In Guy's walkthrough, one of the first things he talks about is mapping all of the interface controls (including attack control, filter, "sizzle(!)" and detune--very nice feature) to MIDI and detailing all of the tutti/per player assignments. I wonder how many disappointed MSB users actually did all of that before shelving it? One thing that is noticeable "out of the box" is that MSB is not quite as loud as my other brass libraries, but it is not difficult to balance it.

Modern Scoring Brass is in my opinion the best brass library value you could want at $399 right now. Looking forward to finding out my loyalty pricing for Modern Scoring Strings, but $249 for example, will be a no-brainer if it is as well done and versatile as MSB.

Sorry if these sentences sound like my tone is more intense than it actually is--just trying to be encouraging, especially to all of the "disappointed" MSB users out there. I have likewise found the original LASS libraries to be enormously versatile and expressive, but I may have more time than many working composers to fiddle with knobs and sliders


----------



## sinkd

Go To 11 said:


> In excitement for this I went back to MSB after a year and tried it again, and no matter how many reverbs I throw at it that room just isn't brass friendly and I can't get even close to my Century Brass or CSB which just instantly sound so so much better out the box. It's one of my big library regrets. Here's hoping strings fare better in that space. I so want this to be good, given how extensively they've sampled the strings, and I wish them all the luck with it. Thankfully strings are less about the room than brass is, to my ears.


Why would you think that adding reverb(s) is going to make MSB sound like CSB?


----------



## zolhof

More information about MSS (source: Audiobro forums). Hey jmcken, if you are reading, thanks for asking these questions!



> 1) First and most importantly: One of the MSS UI screenshots shows a whopping 5 GB loaded into RAM for the Violins patch.
> Will the final patches consume less memory? Or will there also be smaller split patches available as in LASS (sustains only, shorts only, aleatoric only, etc.)?
> I dearly hope the library won’t require 20–25 GB of RAM just to load the basic sections, as I wouldn’t be able to use it in that case.



Of course, the final patches will have all sorts of RAM choices... don't worry. Final release patches will have different configurations and options to be loadable with only a couple hundred megs (or less) or full-blown “everything” patches like you saw. What you saw there was a master patch with EVERY single articulation (all the scales, ostinatos, aleatorics, etc etc etc) loaded into memory for instant playback and gapless key switching. The RAM management is very good and highly user-customizable and the patches will reflect as much. In fact, you could probably load the entire library (I mean ALL sections!) with ALL articulations (including all the scales and ostinatos and all the heavy RAM stuff) in about 24GB-ish (I'm not at my workstation now... but I think that's close to it). But most people will probably just load the articulations they need in the patches.



> 2) Possibly my favorite thing about LASS, which makes it great for both large and small ensembles, is its 3 divisi sections for each instrument group, which allows for unparalleled versatility with section sizes – combining Vlns A + C for a 12-player section, using only A/B sections to imitate a chamber group, etc.
> My understanding is MSS was recorded using only half-size sections. Can you confirm there will be no quarter-sized sections?



LASS will still be supported and relevant especially for the reasons you mentioned, but we think that MSS will be the new torchbearer. MSS was recorded with 4 separate violins sections and MSS simply does a lot of articulations LASS couldn’t and has a much more flexible sound with all the mics. They are different tools, but they can be made to blend VERY nicely.



> 3) Speaking of patches, will there be full-section mix patches as in LASS (Violins I full, Violins II full, etc.)? In fact, any breakdown of what patches will be available would be appreciated.



There won’t be “Full Mix” patches… but there are mic "Mix" mixes (meaning where we combined the different mics into a full mix -- but they are still divisi). We did the Full Mixes (non-divisi) for LASS because back then some systems’ HDs couldn’t handle all the divisis. Today, with SSDs and M.2 drives, it’s a non-issue.

Patch breakdowns will be forthcoming upon release (and we’ll also have some very nice Kontakt Snapshots)… We’ll have Low RAM starter patches, Big Stacatto Patches, and Divisi Split-Outs (meaning a different patch for each divisi in case you don’t want to use auto divisi) as well as others.



> 4) You’ve mentioned that the tone of MSS is significantly warmer than LASS, which is great. But should the need arise, how well would the two libraries blend, if need be? Would using LASS colors and MSS’s ambiance presets allow them to get close to one another?



Well, consider that MSS has 3 Mics to choose from plus a mix “Mix”... so you can blend them pretty well. But honestly, I’ve never had issues blending libraries… it’s sort of commonplace in big templates. So, to answer your question, I don’t think it will be a problem. They will feather together very nicely if so desired.



> 5) Speaking of tone: Another great thing about LASS is the ability to use the “sordino-izer” and “sul pont” colors on non-sustain patches, which lets you apply those tones to any articulation. The MSS info page says there are over 50 ambiance presets (nice!), so can we assume some of those will allow us to add sordino, sul pont., sul tasto, etc. tones to shorts and other articulations?



With MSS we actually recorded the real thing for sustains (and leg, port, gliss): Sordino, Sul Tasto, Sul Pont. Having IRs in the future maybe something we can look into, but it won’t be there for the initial release.



> 6) I like the simplicity of the vibrato control knob. To be specific, what is the range of the vibrato? Meaning, if 0% is completely non-vib., will 100% be “regular” vibrato, or will it be extra-heavy vibrato (“molto vib.”), with normal vibrato at around 70% or something?



O% will be per without any vibrato. 100% will be con vibrato (we asked for molto espressivo commensurate to the dynamic), so yes… you can get all degrees of Non-Vib to Vib blending. With the addition of the MSS soloists, you get that extra vibrato that pushes the rest of the section. Of course, blend to taste.



> 7) The articulations chart lists a solo violin, solo viola (from LASS) and solo cello. IIRC, the solo instruments from LASS First Chair are mostly meant to blend in with the full sections, rather than to use as soloists. Will this be the same for the MSS solo instruments, or are they more soloistic/expressive?



The MSS soloists will be more flexible since they also have non-vibrato and vibrato (LASS only had vibrato). So, you can dial in the amount of expressiveness you want the section leader to have. However, MSS’s solo violin’s vibrato when set to 100% vibrato is more akin to a soloist. We already had the LASS solo violin, we wanted to cover more ground with MSS.



> 8) Regarding the solo instruments, too bad there’s no love for the solo bass. Are there any plans for an “expanded” solo library that would include a bass, and also maybe a solo violin II? (The inclusion in LASS FC of both solo violin I and II, as well as both first- and second-chair instruments, was crazy useful.)



It wasn’t so much a "loss of love for the FC Bass", we just felt that we had already covered that in LASS, and also, there was never a huge demand for it. If there was an interest, then, of course, we could always expand in the future. When you turn on the Bass Close mics.... you will probably get that detail you seek. I should also mention though, that even with our solo violin, without auto divisi engine, you can play multiple parts and it sounds VERY good. So, my guess is a Solo II won’t be missed. But maybe I’m wrong.



> 9) The info page mentions MSS will ship with Articulation Sets and Expression Maps for Logic Pro and Cubase. Are there any plans to include (or commission separately) a Sound Set for Sibelius users? I’ve learned how to make my own, but it’s pretty complex and time-consuming for an amateur, and it would be fantastic if they were included with the download. (I know Jonathan Loving provided the Sibelius sound set for LASS, but sadly I don’t think he’s that active anymore.)



That is a good question. I mean our Switcher and expression integration is very feature-complete, so I know (for example) that MSS expression mapping is pretty easy to integrate into Reaticulate (for Reaper). My guess is that it's the same with other forms of mapping and that the user community will probably step up (I hope someone will).



> 10) Last and least, more of a wish than anything, will there be presets that replicate flautando, and col legno tratto (bowed, as opposed to struck)?



Well, we recorded real Sul Tasto sustains legato, port, and gliss. That should get you pretty close. With regards to col legno tratto, we just did regular col legno. They speak very nicely and I think will get a lot of use.

*===================================*

@dxmachina I have a couple more questions, if you don't mind answering. I asked in the forums but didn't get a reply, perhaps you could address them here, considering Black Friday and that everyone is desperate to spend money.


Are you planning any sort of loyalty offer for other Audiobro owners like MSB, Genesis, and LADD? Something similar to what Strezov Sampling does. I ask this because seeing MSB already heavily discounted (intro price $599, now $399), is a bit disappointing.
I believe you are the mind behind the Intuition patches, are those coming to MSS as well?
Is it possible to add the repetition key function and more shorts options to the Intuition patches?
Thank you.


----------



## dxmachina

Good morning.



> is the normal legato slurred/fingered or bow-changing?



The normal legato is fingered.



> Are you planning any sort of loyalty offer for other Audiobro owners like MSB, Genesis, and LADD?



These decisions are still being sorted out, so I'm afraid I don't have a final answer for you today. We've done it in the past, and I do like these sorts of offers myself... FabFilter for instance. TBD.



> I believe you are the mind behind the Intuition patches, are those coming to MSS as well?



Your example sounds great and I'm _thrilled_ you're making use of these instruments. Everything is a team effort here, but the Intuition Engine is about as close to a technology child as I've ever had. Anyway, hold on to that question for a bit longer and sorry for the circuitous response here.



> Is it possible to add the repetition key function and more shorts options to the Intuition patches?



Repetition key can definitely be added.

Short options are also possible. The design principle on those patches is kind of: intense hidden complexity for the sake of simplicity. Sometimes you just want to be able to sit and play a thing with your hands, you know? The trick with short options (and other possible additions) is fitting them in without accidentally veering back into general purpose. But I completely get what you're saying... the short variations could add a lot of possibilities.


----------



## Batrawi

dxmachina said:


> The normal legato is fingered.


*Thank goodness!* bow-change as a main legato would have been a deal breaker to me..


----------



## zimm83

Will there be ART in this new library ? This is a so cool feature for repetitions ???


----------



## Wenlone

First of all, this is my dream strings library on the paper. 60 players, divisi, the long list of articulations, consistency, and all in one patches. I appreciate Audiobro’s approach, individual instruments on the brass, and divisi on the strings. These are invaluable for those who like to write music in a more traditional way.

Here are some questions.

Can we use extended legatos in the main patches? If not, It’s not a huge deal, but it forces you to use more patches. This was one of the things I dislike about MSB muted patches. I would like to use them in one big patch. Maybe you can add extra patches for those who got the full bundle.
Can we blend articulations via that layer button? Like Violins 1A plays arco 1B plays con sordino.
Can we use legato between articulations?
Are the bartok pizzicatos only available in basses?
Solo strings don’t have scale articulations. How good they are with fast runs?
Other than that. There should be more than 2 demos on MSS, and walkthrough videos should show us every articulation and feature. Also, sending some NFR copies to people who make videos is a great idea. It was really hard to get information about MSB.


----------



## Noc

zolhof said:


> More information about MSS (source: Audiobro forums). Hey jmcken, if you are reading, thanks for asking these questions!


No problem. 

@dxmachina (I’ll stick to posting here for now so you have one less forum to keep tabs on …):

The info page mentions MSS will have 52 ambiance presets. This sounds massive, so to clarify, will this be 52 presets per patch, or 52 presets in total split across the patches (so each patch has 5–10 or so on)? Will these presets function like LASS’s colors, replicating the tone of noteworthy recordings and suchlike?


----------



## Go To 11

sinkd said:


> Why would you think that adding reverb(s) is going to make MSB sound like CSB?


The samples arrive almost bone dry, so I disabled the built in reverbs, and added my own, to try and get the brass to sound like it was genuinely in a hall. Personally, I wasn't able to achieve a genuine hall sound again out of MSB as I get with CSB or Century out the box. Just my experience.


----------



## dxmachina

> Will there be ART in this new library ? This is a so cool feature for repetitions ???



Will it ever. In addition to the classic ART mode we have a ton of new stuff (including the often requested ability to dump ART output into your DAW).



> Can we use extended legatos in the main patches? If not, It’s not a huge deal, but it forces you to use more patches.



The non-legato versions of those extended techniques are in the main patches of course, but when adding the transitions there is a separate patch. Believe it or not Kontakt has a per-instrument sample/zone limit that we're running into. I'm a Logic guy and set up the Articulation Sets to basically unify them into a single track when desired.



> Can we blend articulations via that layer button? Like Violins 1A plays arco 1B plays con sordino.



You can definitely blend articulations using the layer button, but if you want a half/half section (which is truly a lovely sound) we have broken out divisi sections for that. 



> Can we use legato between articulations?



Legato is available for Arco strings, tremolo, trills, and with the Expanded Legato library you also have Sordino, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont.



> Are the bartok pizzicatos only available in basses?



Correct, just the basses.



> Solo strings don’t have scale articulations. How good they are with fast runs?



The Solo Cello does have scales included, but in general the solo legato is quite nimble. Legato, port, and gliss articulations also all have unique "speed" settings as well as a "master speed" that affects all of them, which means you can tighten the legato speed quite a ways. I think you'll be pleased - but best to let you hear it and make up your own mind.



> The info page mentions MSS will have 52 ambiance presets. This sounds massive, so to clarify, will this be 52 presets per patch, or 52 presets in total split across the patches (so each patch has 5–10 or so on)? Will these presets function like LASS’s colors, replicating the tone of noteworthy recordings and suchlike?



The presets are available for every patch. They are accessible in two ways. First, you can load them as reverbs in the mixer (as insert or sends). But they are also available in the Stage Simulation which is closer to LASS' color section in that it does room and space simulation in addition to reverb.


----------



## axb312

I would like to thank @dxmachina for taking the time to personally answer so many questions on here. Cheers.


----------



## PJMorgan

@dxmachina

Really looking forward to this one. I already asked this over at the audiobro forum but since you're here.... Will LASS be getting a UI update? it's still my main string library but the only thing that lets it down is the UI & keyswitching is a bit dated compared some of the newer libraries out there. I think I read here somewhere that LASS was giong to get a UI update to be more in line with audiobro's more recent libraries.


----------



## Toecutter

zolhof said:


> considering Black Friday and that everyone is desperate to spend money


That would be me XD

Thanks for sharing the Q&A, just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!

What a roller coaster ride since yesterday's announcement. I was under false impression that MSS was a repackage of old LASS samples, MSB was useless and MSS would follow the same path. I had my mind made up to skip it entirely. From being called out by you and batrawi, hearing your mockup and learning things about MSB that I didn't learn in a whole year, I decided to NOT spend my BF budget on Century Strings 2.0 and Vista, until I hear more about MSS. I hope I don't regret......

If you have the time please consider sharing something with MSS before the introduce price expires. I'm very curious to hear your opinion.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Can i ask about the auto divisi- So it seems , this time, it will allocate a maximum of 2 Voices instead of 3/4 per instrument (Violin 1 , Cellos etc) .

Is there a Combined Violin (1+2) patch that allows you to use polyphonic legato + auto divisi with 4 voices ? 

Maybe I have got this wrong - but it sounds like maximum 2 notes auto divisi per instrument this time ? 

If you could explain the Polyphonic Legato + Auto Divisi a bit more in detail, that would be great, as I love this feature of LASS 2.5


----------



## Toecutter

Wenlone said:


> There should be more than 2 demos on MSS, and walkthrough videos should show us every articulation and feature. Also, sending some NFR copies to people who make videos is a great idea. It was really hard to get information about MSB.


YES! @dxmachina listen to this man! We NEED demos ASAP. Better yet, we need demos from people who know how to use the library. MSB was a huge let down because of that! And I won't bother watching a 4 hour long video of someone banging random keys, we have too much of that already.

Is vibrato real recorded vibrato?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

So...what's timing looking like?


----------



## dxmachina

> I would like to thank @dxmachina for taking the time to personally answer so many questions on here. Cheers.



My pleasure.



> Will LASS be getting a UI update?



Yes... LASS has definitely not been forgotten and this is on our list to do, but it's not going to be for a bit.



> Can i ask about the auto divisi- So it seems , this time, it will allocate a maximum of 2 Voices instead of 3/4 per instrument (Violin 1 , Cellos etc) .



Sure. Our Auto Divisi engine will do up to 8 voices of poly-legato (or any artic) tracking simultaneously.

What happens when you play 3+ note chords on an instrument that has 2 divisi sections? The engine will simply play your part as desired - splitting among the available sections as configured (our defaults alternate new voices between the available sections, but it's user-editable).

Bottom line is that we'll just play your chords and transitions. If you want ultimate realism you can arrange to the number of real splits available... but otherwise we prioritize your voicings and "just working."

I hope that makes sense. Let me know if not!



> Is there a Combined Violin (1+2) patch that allows you to use polyphonic legato + auto divisi with 4 voices ?



You bet. Again, it will do up to 8 voices of poly legato, but up to the 4-way split is what is completely natural if you're going for ultimate realism.



> YES! @dxmachina listen to this man! We NEED demos ASAP. Better yet, we need demos from people who know how to use the library.



We want you to hear MSS and what it's capable of. We're in the very final testing and demo phase and it won't be long. I've re-read every single post in the original MSB thread (after a glass of wine), and I'll be here on VI-C to chat indefinitely. We have every intention of presenting this library honestly and _extensively_. That means a bunch of different things: more than 2 demos , naked video walkthroughs, tutorials, etc.

VI-C really was home to the birth of LASS a decade ago, and I personally regret that we haven't had better outreach here in the last couple years.



> Is vibrato real recorded vibrato?



Yes, real recorded vibrato.



> So...what's timing looking like?



Doing everything we can to have it in your hands this year. MSS is encoded, through QA, and has been in the hands of our testing team for quite a while now. Still lots of work to do... finishing demos, videos, tutorials, but we're about there.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

constaneum said:


> Curious about the crossgrade. would like to hear an announcement trailer made using Modern Scoring Strings.




Is this a replacement for LASS? 
If I cross grade, does Modern simply take the place of LASS?


----------



## dxmachina

@EpicEsquire 

It will definitely be our "state of the art" string package, but if you cross grade it will not replace your LASS license.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

dxmachina said:


> @EpicEsquire
> 
> It will definitely be our "state of the art" string package, but if you cross grade it will not replace your LASS license.




I wish upon a star that I could know the price of this - there are so many Black Friday deals - any chance of a pre-order discount price if we do not own LASS?


----------



## Raphioli

dxmachina said:


> We want you to hear MSS and what it's capable of. We're in the very final testing and demo phase and it won't be long. I've re-read every single post in the original MSB thread (after a glass of wine), and I'll be here on VI-C to chat indefinitely. We have every intention of presenting this library honestly and _extensively_. That means a bunch of different things: more than 2 demos , naked video walkthroughs, tutorials, etc.



I'm receiving "BF is almost ending" e-mails of products that I had on my wishlist and its hard to resist without any demos of MSS...
I'm hoping there would be at least some kind of a sound clip before Sep 1st (not expecting a proper fully composed demo), just to show off its timbre and the quality of the legatos.


----------



## tcb

@*dxmachina*
Hi Audiobro staff.
I'm from China and interested in your librarys.  I know for torrent reasons we can't buy your librarys.But the copyright consciousness has improved a lot these years in China.Acturally many Chinese music producers had buy Audiobro's librarys through their Japanese friends,student studying abroad etc.
And block a whole nation can't stop theif,it just trouble the people who really want to purchase a library..


----------



## Casiquire

sinkd said:


> The thing I find with libraries that are usable "right out of the box" is that I quickly discover that usability to have a fairly specific vector. What I find with MSB (which is probably very similar to what we will have with MSS), is that when I hear a brass library vibe that I like, I can get pretty close if not spot on with MSB, because it has multiple versatilities, which requires multiple controls.
> 
> In Guy's walkthrough, one of the first things he talks about is mapping all of the interface controls (including attack control, filter, "sizzle(!)" and detune--very nice feature) to MIDI and detailing all of the tutti/per player assignments. I wonder how many disappointed MSB users actually did all of that before shelving it? One thing that is noticeable "out of the box" is that MSB is not quite as loud as my other brass libraries, but it is not difficult to balance it.
> 
> Modern Scoring Brass is in my opinion the best brass library value you could want at $399 right now. Looking forward to finding out my loyalty pricing for Modern Scoring Strings, but $249 for example, will be a no-brainer if it is as well done and versatile as MSB.
> 
> Sorry if these sentences sound like my tone is more intense than it actually is--just trying to be encouraging, especially to all of the "disappointed" MSB users out there. I have likewise found the original LASS libraries to be enormously versatile and expressive, but I may have more time than many working composers to fiddle with knobs and sliders





sinkd said:


> Why would you think that adding reverb(s) is going to make MSB sound like CSB?


Isn't the room the single biggest complaint about CSB in the first place?


----------



## transverb

Just stumbled across this thread. Looks amazing. Great to see the dev on here firing off replies. 

If I got this right, best chance at this baby is to go all in on LASS 2.5 Full and hope for a stellar upgrade price?


----------



## dxmachina

> I wish upon a star that I could know the price of this - there are so many Black Friday deals - any chance of a pre-order discount price if we do not own LASS?



Do your inboxes _also_ look like some peculiar 21st century Sears and Roebuck catalog this week? Honestly, I don't have the answers on pricing quite yet (sorry), just because it hasn't be 100% finalized.



> I'm receiving "BF is almost ending" e-mails of products that I had on my wishlist and its hard to resist without any demos of MSS...



Yeah, I get it... I feel the exact same sales pressure this time of year. I'm a composer and programmer(nerd), and when it comes to promotion/sales my instinct is to go hide and feel nauseous somewhere. We of course want you to know there's a new major string library coming in a matter of weeks, but with details still forthcoming I don't blame you for considering what's out and on sale. So no hard feelings either way, ok? There's lots of good stuff out there. Is MSS worth waiting a few weeks for if you're looking for a new string library? It is... but I'm very obviously biased.



> I'm from China and interested in your librarys.  I know for torrent reasons we can't buy your librarys.But the copyright consciousness has improved a lot these years in China.Acturally many Chinese music producers had buy Audiobro's librarys through their Japanese friends,student studying abroad etc.
> And block a whole nation can't stop theif,it just trouble the people who really want to purchase a library..



Ugh... I'm sorry about this. It's not really just torrents or piracy that have made it difficult for us, but I know it might feel like we're accusing a country as a whole. That is not at all our intention and again I apologize for however it's coming off. If you're interested in our libraries, _please_ shoot us an email. I know that's an extra step to go through (and that's also not ideal) but it's how we can try to help at the moment.



> If I got this right, best chance at this baby is to go all in on LASS 2.5 Full and hope for a stellar upgrade price?



We do think LASS Full users will be happy with the cross-grade pricing, and we feel a real loyalty to those who have kept us in business for the last decade. If you want both libraries it should be a nice deal.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

dxmachina said:


> Do your inboxes _also_ look like some peculiar 21st century Sears and Roebuck catalog this week? Honestly, I don't have the answers on pricing quite yet (sorry), just because it hasn't be 100% finalized.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I get it... I feel the exact same sales pressure this time of year. I'm a composer and programmer(nerd), and when it comes to promotion/sales my instinct is to go hide and feel nauseous somewhere. We of course want you to know there's a new major string library coming in a matter of weeks, but with details still forthcoming I don't blame you for considering what's out and on sale. So no hard feelings either way, ok? There's lots of good stuff out there. Is MSS worth waiting a few weeks for if you're looking for a new string library? It is... but I'm very obviously biased.
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh... I'm sorry about this. It's not really just torrents or piracy that have made it difficult for us, but I know it might feel like we're accusing a country as a whole. That is not at all our intention and again I apologize for however it's coming off. If you're interested in our libraries, _please_ shoot us an email. I know that's an extra step to go through (and that's also not ideal) but it's how we can try to help at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> We do think LASS Full users will be happy with the cross-grade pricing, and we feel a real loyalty to those who have kept us in business for the last decade. If you want both libraries it should be a nice deal.




Are the runs going to be similar to CineStrings Runs where you can choose the key and type of run and press one key and the run is performed synced to tempo? Sorry if this is a newbie question


----------



## dxmachina

> Are the runs going to be similar to CineStrings Runs where you can choose the key and type of run and press one key and the run is performed synced to tempo? Sorry if this is a newbie question



You can play them in a bunch of ways including what you mentioned. For instance:

1. Select Key and Tonality (in case you want B# Locrian runs) 
2. Hold your start note
3. Run will continue until you release the key

Or another fun automatic mode

1. Select Key and Tonality
2. Press and release start note
3. Press end note

Then you get a run between your two selected notes (in the key/tonality).
**bonus if you then press a new end note during the run it will change the end note/direction if necessary to keep going

Those are the most automatic modes. There are also other modes that let you play smaller fragments and string them into each other (in a selected key/tonality).


----------



## MusiquedeReve

dxmachina said:


> You can play them in a bunch of ways including what you mentioned. For instance:
> 
> 1. Select Key and Tonality (in case you want B# Locrian runs)
> 2. Hold your start note
> 3. Run will continue until you release the key
> 
> Or another fun automatic mode
> 
> 1. Select Key and Tonality
> 2. Press and release start note
> 3. Press end note
> 
> Then you get a run between your two selected notes (in the key/tonality).
> **bonus if you then press a new end note during the run it will change the end note/direction if necessary to keep going
> 
> Those are the most automatic modes. There are also other modes that let you play smaller fragments and string them into each other (in a selected key/tonality).




That's some news I can use - thank you.


----------



## I like music

Audiobro and EW getting people excited about their strings. What year is this again?

Says something about the quality of what they must have built a decade ago, that people are getting super excited about these. I missed the LASS boat (a tad before my time), but got Genesis. If these are anywhere near the quality of Genesis, then they're going to ruin some wallets, and put some smiles on some ears.


----------



## Raphioli

dxmachina said:


> Then you get a run between your two selected notes (in the key/tonality).
> **bonus if you then press a new end note during the run it will change the end note/direction if necessary to keep going



Does this mean that your runs patch can do a strings run like the one in Harry Potters Hedwig's Theme convincingly?
If that's the case, its really going to make decisions harder (because so far, I haven't heard a library that could pull that off convincingly) ...


----------



## zolhof

"And on the seventh day, @dxmachina rested from all his work which he had made"

Man, you are killing it here! Thank you for the barrage of information, that is very helpful. Developers should take note.



> Your example sounds great and I'm _thrilled_ you're making use of these instruments. Everything is a team effort here, but the Intuition Engine is about as close to a technology child as I've ever had. Anyway, hold on to that question for a bit longer and sorry for the circuitous response here.



Thank you for your kinds words. The Intuition instruments are truly inspiring to me.

For those who don't know, Intuition patches are the equivalent of performance patches but with a small caveat: the augmented control, despite still being pretty much "plug & play". Dynamics, attack, vibrato and connection. Connection is particularly great, quoting the manual: "When all the way to the left the player is stopping the air and re-tonguing. However, the notes still affect each other naturally. This could be considered a detached legato. On the other hand, setting connection all the way to the right creates longer connections and (depending on the instrument) bends".

If you need more control, then you load the main patches, which add things like pitch arc (subtle pitch variation, due to the increase of air being pushed through), transition volume, sizzle, shorts extravaganza, extra vibrato control (per divisi section), repetitions, etc.



> Repetition key can definitely be added.
> 
> Short options are also possible. The design principle on those patches is kind of: intense hidden complexity for the sake of simplicity. Sometimes you just want to be able to sit and play a thing with your hands, you know?



I would definitely appreciate having more short options, maybe not directly accessible via the GUI to not clutter things up, but perhaps under the hood via CC? 

I really like MSB and I think it's criminally underrated. It has a learning curve for sure, but once you "get it", it can add a lot of colors and expression to your brass section, without sounding like a modeled instrument. MSB and MSS share the same engine, and that gets me all giddy and excited.

I gave MSS' patch list a second look, and the variety of articulations there should get anyone covered for all his/her strings needs. I have some mockups in the works that I wish I could put on hold to use MSS, especially considering how I rely so much on MSB already. Can't wait to hear how they sound together!


----------



## Noeticus

How many true dynamics layers in this new MSS? 

Any details about the glissandi?

Also, I own lots of your libraries, and love the "Detune" effect in MSB etc. Can you please say how one could do this with filters/plugins that are on the market so that I can detune non-audiobro libraries etc.?


----------



## Raphioli

Noeticus said:


> How many true dynamics layers in this new MSS?


I'll quote his answer to my question.



dxmachina said:


> This is difficult to answer succinctly - it varies. For something like Violins legato, each divisi section has something similar to this: 4 layers NV, 4 layers Vib, 4 layers NV (accented), 4 layers Vib Accented, 4 layers Vib with feathered/cresc in. Dynamic layers are generally increased from LASS overall across all articulations.


----------



## Dave Connor

dxmachina said:


> You can play them in a bunch of ways including what you mentioned. For instance:
> 
> 1. Select Key and Tonality (in case you want B# Locrian runs)
> 2. Hold your start note
> 3. Run will continue until you release the key
> 
> Or another fun automatic mode
> 
> 1. Select Key and Tonality
> 2. Press and release start note
> 3. Press end note
> 
> Then you get a run between your two selected notes (in the key/tonality).
> **bonus if you then press a new end note during the run it will change the end note/direction if necessary to keep going
> 
> Those are the most automatic modes. There are also other modes that let you play smaller fragments and string them into each other (in a selected key/tonality).


Could you do an entire run in the same key (at the end of a measure for example) and then on the final note on beat one of the next measure land on a note not in the the scale of the run? I often modulate after a run and need just the very last note in a new key.


----------



## Noeticus

Raphioli said:


> I'll quote his answer to my question.


 
Thanks for this!!!


----------



## lettucehat

_Due to high demand, we have run out of LASS Full serial numbers. We will email you your serial number as soon as it comes in (it may take a few days). Thanks for your patience._

Whoa! I guess people are really betting on the upgrade price.


----------



## Raphioli

@zolhof
Intuition patches definitely sounds great if they were to come to MSS.
I wonder if its technically possible.



lettucehat said:


> _Due to high demand, we have run out of LASS Full serial numbers. We will email you your serial number as soon as it comes in (it may take a few days). Thanks for your patience._
> 
> Whoa! I guess people are really betting on the upgrade price.


Looks like the hype train has already left the building...err I mean the station.


----------



## dxmachina

> Does this mean that your runs patch can do a strings run like the one in Harry Potters Hedwig's Theme convincingly?


Perhaps unsurprisingly, Hedwig's theme was the inspiration for the design of that mode. The tools are there to do it, but I'll let you guys be the judge if we managed it.



> I would definitely appreciate having more short options, maybe not directly accessible via the GUI to not clutter things up, but perhaps under the hood via CC?


It's in the board for a future brass update. 



> I really like MSB and I think it's criminally underrated.



Thanks for saying this. I'm gratified to see a lot more composers sharing that sentiment, and hope to win over a few more in the future with some better explanatory material and presets. 



> Could you do an entire run in the same key (at the end of a measure for example) and then on the final note on beat one of the next measure land on a note not in the the scale of the run? I often modulate after a run and need just the very last note in a new key.



Yes, you can, with or without a final added accent on the last note. The logic to do this was considerably more difficult than playing the scales on a piano. 



> Any details about the glissandi?


What would you like to know? Like LASS, they're longer portamento. The transition speed is also controllable in realtime, meaning that you can exaggerate the note transition, or minimize it. You can select which of the transitions (leg/port/gliss) you get with a slider/CC or velocity (with definable ranges).



> Also, I own lots of your libraries, and love the "Detune" effect in MSB etc. Can you please say how one could do this with filters/plugins that are on the market so that I can detune non-audiobro libraries etc.?



Thanks! Hmm... I'm sure it could be done, but am not sure off the top of my head what to recommend. You basically need a smooth pitch modulation with additional pitch LFOs.

But one thing that's also part of the "secret sauce" is the divisi ... the Detune acts as an overall amount, but each divisi section has discrete settings for detune directions, amounts, wobble, and those are even specific per-pitch-per-divisi. So the collective effect of moving the one big knob is that you can create a really smooth controllable chaos within the section, then dial it back to normal.

MSS has all this of course - plus we recorded a bunch of real aleatoric stuff live (again with discrete divisi) which can be layered (or even used simultaneously to the Detune effect). 

Also, if you haven't tried some slight realtime detune on short patterns, it can definitely be a great effect (for the right track/cue).


----------



## Kevperry777

dxmachina said:


> Perhaps unsurprisingly, Hedwig's theme was the inspiration for the design of that mode. The tools are there to do it, but I'll let you guys be the judge if we managed it.
> 
> 
> It's in the board for a future brass update.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for saying this. I'm gratified to see a lot more composers sharing that sentiment, and hope to win over a few more in the future with some better explanatory material and presets.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you can, with or without a final added accent on the last note. The logic to do this was considerably more difficult than playing the scales on a piano.
> 
> 
> What would you like to know? Like LASS, they're longer portamento. The transition speed is also controllable in realtime, meaning that you can exaggerate the note transition, or minimize it. You can select which of the transitions (leg/port/gliss) you get with a slider/CC or velocity (with definable ranges).
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! Hmm... I'm sure it could be done, but am not sure off the top of my head what to recommend. You basically need a smooth pitch modulation with additional pitch LFOs.
> 
> But one thing that's also part of the "secret sauce" is the divisi ... the Detune acts as an overall amount, but each divisi section has discrete settings for detune directions, amounts, wobble, and those are even specific per-pitch-per-divisi. So the collective effect of moving the one big knob is that you can create a really smooth controllable chaos within the section, then dial it back to normal.
> 
> MSS has all this of course - plus we recorded a bunch of real aleatoric stuff live (again with discrete divisi) which can be layered (or even used simultaneously to the Detune effect).
> 
> Also, if you haven't tried some slight realtime detune on short patterns, it can definitely be a great effect (for the right track/cue).



Um. Wow. I’ve been a lass owner a looong time. Looking forward to this.


----------



## Wunderhorn

dxmachina said:


> Perhaps unsurprisingly, Hedwig's theme was the inspiration for the design of that mode. ...



Oh dear, I am afraid now it's _game on!_


----------



## CT

It's probably already been said, but the developer communication happening here is fantastic to see, and I hope the forum can behave itself enough to allow this kind of interaction to continue and (re)grow.


----------



## Beans

As someone who does not own MSB, I'm wondering if the methods used for reducing RAM and CPU usage are new to MSS. From what I see on other forums where Guy has posted, there are still some issues here with MSB after applying the recommendations.

I do love the sound of MSB, even in the limited demos. I don't align with the criticisms there. But I'm hesitant to build the start of a "Master Scoring" template for the same reason I'm hesitant to jump on the Berlin scene for strings.

Happy to see Detune here! Love it in Genesis, which is tied with Eric Whitacre Choir for my favorite choir library (of which I have _many_).


----------



## Casiquire

Curious, is there also a playable runs option? I'm pretty strongly averse to phrases and the like even though they do sound better


----------



## GingerMaestro

I don’t really know much about AudioBro libraries, but this has got me interested...

Does LASS have same rebowing/rearticulation of the same note ? ie up down up down on the same note ? I can’t find any mention of it on the Modern Scoring strings page, or LASS ? There don’t seem to be many libs that do this 

is there likely to be a lite version of this ? Thanks


----------



## Casiquire

GingerMaestro said:


> I don’t really know much about AudioBro libraries, but this has got me interested...
> 
> Does LASS have same rebowing/rearticulation of the same note ? ie up down up down on the same note ? I can’t find any mention of it on the Modern Scoring strings page, or LASS ? There don’t seem to be many libs that do this
> 
> is there likely to be a lite version of this ? Thanks


Correct me if I'm wrong but i don't believe LASS has recorded rebows. It's extremely agile though; if you replay the same note with almost no gap it's pretty convincing. Or what i do is I'll replay the same note on one divisi section but let the other section sustain the note underneath for just a little more blur


----------



## dxmachina

> As someone who does not own MSB, I'm wondering if the methods used for reducing RAM and CPU usage are new to MSS. From what I see on other forums where Guy has posted, there are still some issues here with MSB after applying the recommendations.



All our newer libraries dynamically purge memory for articulations that are not part of your active setup (meaning, if they're in your loaded articulations they are loaded partially into RAM). The other area that tends to use RAM is in the instrument sample layouts themselves... and this gets somewhat compounded when you have divisi sections and multi mic. The way we mitigate this is to offer patches identical to the main patches that are are split by divisi section and/or mic mix. By removing the unused samples it reduces the instrument makeup dramatically and helps save RAM.

That said, if there's a specific question or issue I'd be happy to address that (I remember chatting with Guy a while back about MSB RAM, but I'm a little hazy on the details other than that he uses a completely purged template). I keep the entirety of all our libraries (and others) in my template that loads every day. I'm on an '14 Mac Pro for reference... but also test on a 2013 PC and newish laptop.



> Curious, is there also a playable runs option?



If you're talking about playing each individual note of a run - you'd be leaving that to the fast legato engine to handle. You may remember some early attempts at that with LASS. That said, I think you may like the Scales mode (even if you're phrase adverse). If you use the modes that are only automated in terms of tonality (you can go completely manual if you're a monster  ) I think you'll find it is basically a playable instrument of smaller scalar patterns.



> Does LASS have same rebowing/rearticulation of the same note ?



We call this "same note legato" and it's recorded for every instrument in MSS.



> Correct me if I'm wrong but i don't believe LASS has recorded rebows.



You are correct, LASS does not have dedicated samples but more of a simulated same note re-attack.



> is there likely to be a lite version of this ?



Probably not - mostly due to the fact that we've exhausted all the acronyms in the English language.


----------



## Noeticus

In regards to glissandi, how long time wise will the gliss last, or can the gliss timing be altered?

I want very slow long gliss options, but no library really offers them, as there are so many variables.

Every gliss from every note up to, and down to, an octave at different durations is a lot of recording data.

In regards to your proprietary "Detune effect".... please sell it as a separate vst plugin one day.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

dxmachina said:


> You can play them in a bunch of ways including what you mentioned. For instance:
> 
> 1. Select Key and Tonality (in case you want B# Locrian runs)
> 2. Hold your start note
> 3. Run will continue until you release the key
> 
> Or another fun automatic mode
> 
> 1. Select Key and Tonality
> 2. Press and release start note
> 3. Press end note
> 
> Then you get a run between your two selected notes (in the key/tonality).
> **bonus if you then press a new end note during the run it will change the end note/direction if necessary to keep going
> 
> Those are the most automatic modes. There are also other modes that let you play smaller fragments and string them into each other (in a selected key/tonality).




Does MSB have this same capability?


----------



## Casiquire

dxmachina said:


> All our newer libraries dynamically purge memory for articulations that are not part of your active setup (meaning, if they're in your loaded articulations they are loaded partially into RAM). The other area that tends to use RAM is in the instrument sample layouts themselves... and this gets somewhat compounded when you have divisi sections and multi mic. The way we mitigate this is to offer patches identical to the main patches that are are split by divisi section and/or mic mix. By removing the unused samples it reduces the instrument makeup dramatically and helps save RAM.
> 
> That said, if there's a specific question or issue I'd be happy to address that (I remember chatting with Guy a while back about MSB RAM, but I'm a little hazy on the details other than that he uses a completely purged template). I keep the entirety of all our libraries (and others) in my template that loads every day. I'm on an '14 Mac Pro for reference... but also test on a 2013 PC and newish laptop.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're talking about playing each individual note of a run - you'd be leaving that to the fast legato engine to handle. You may remember some early attempts at that with LASS. That said, I think you may like the Scales mode (even if you're phrase adverse). If you use the modes that are only automated in terms of tonality (you can go completely manual if you're a monster  ) I think you'll find it is basically a playable instrument of smaller scalar patterns.
> 
> 
> 
> We call this "same note legato" and it's recorded for every instrument in MSS.
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct, LASS does not have dedicated samples but more of a simulated same note re-attack.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not - mostly due to the fact that we've exhausted all the acronyms in the English language.


Thanks for answering. I'm probably going to be a monster and just try it in the main patch under the assumption that MSS will have a legato engine at least as good as LASS's, which wasn't perfect with runs but actually holds its own extremely well against the competition to this day


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina It just occurred to me to ask a question I’ve had for years, and which I’ve never found any clear answer on anywhere:

Is the legato in LASS sampled (real recorded transitions between intervals), or simulated (manipulating the note ends/attacks with a script)? It sounds good, but when I compare it to the sampled legato in libraries like Hollywood Strings, CineStrings or CSS, I can’t make out the quick “slide” from one note to another that I can clearly hear in other legato libraries, no matter what interval I play. So it’s always made me wonder if it’s scripted, or whether it’s sampled but just too fast to hear the sliding.

(Sorry if this is a bit OT for a thread about MSS … but then half the thread is about MSB anyway. )


----------



## Soundbed

Very excited, and on the fence about upgrading from LASS Lite to full without hearing anything.

I've never needed the full version. But I frequently recommend LASS Lite esp. for the viola, cello and bass spiccatos.

Even published a YouTube video a few days ago about how I still like LASS after all these years (comparing & contrasting LASS with CSS)!


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> @dxmachina It just occurred to me to ask a question I’ve had for years, and which I’ve never found any clear answer on anywhere:
> 
> Is the legato in LASS sampled (real recorded transitions between intervals), or simulated (manipulating the note ends/attacks with a script)? It sounds good, but when I compare it to the sampled legato in libraries like Hollywood Strings, CineStrings or CSS, I can’t make out the quick “slide” from one note to another that I can clearly hear in other legato libraries, no matter what interval I play. So it’s always made me wonder if it’s scripted, or whether it’s sampled but just too fast to hear the sliding.
> 
> (Sorry if this is a bit OT for a thread about MSS … but then half the thread is about MSB anyway. )


My understanding is it's recorded. A lot of libraries exaggerate transitions. The LASS ones sound a lot more direct than most but that doesn't mean they're fake. If you want to hear more of that glide though, use portamento transitions and then increase the legato speed slider. I love that sound too sometimes


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> My understanding is it's recorded. A lot of libraries exaggerate transitions. The LASS ones sound a lot more direct than most but that doesn't mean they're fake. If you want to hear more of that glide though, use portamento transitions and then increase the legato speed slider. I love that sound too sometimes


Yeah, I like to mix legato and portamenti with variable speeds in more expressive passages, especially for solos. I know some say portamento is overused in sampled music, to which I say nothing that sounds that beautiful can be overused.  (Well, unless it’s exaggerated, anyway.)


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> Yeah, I like to mix legato and portamenti with variable speeds in more expressive passages, especially for solos. I know some say portamento is overused in sampled music, to which I say nothing that sounds that beautiful can be overused.  (Well, unless it’s exaggerated, anyway.)


And to be clear what i mean is to get it to a fast enough speed that it acts like a legato with just the lightest slide. Not to use it at portamento speeds on every transition haha


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> And to be clear what i mean is to get it to a fast enough speed that it acts like a legato with just the lightest slide. Not to use it at portamento speeds on every transition haha


Yeah, that’s what I meant – using quick portamentos to act as more expressive legatos and mixing the two.


----------



## coprhead6

Unless the music specifically calls for it, “portamento” in real orchestral recordings is just a result of the string players playing a certain fingering. It only happens between certain notes in certain positions and is not very intentional. 

It’s so overused because we have the option as an articulation in our libraries and it sounds cool, but it’s not practical or very tasteful between 75% of notes.

I would only expect string players like myself to know where to put the portamentos in a mock-up and explaining where they should go would probably have to be a 30 minute Zoom video call with my instrument in hand!

My most practical advice would be to use them sparingly and in the higher ranges of the instruments.


----------



## zimm83

Tips : You should create MULTIS , orchestrated parts with ostinatos, runs and melodies.
Like Symphobias series and ARK 3/4. 
That would be great... You have everything by sections....but with Multis : Instant ready to score !!!


----------



## stargazer

@dxmachina Would you advice us not owning LASS, to get it while BF lasts to take advantage of the LASS Loyalty Cross-Grade Program?
Also, for how long will the BF pricing last?


----------



## Toecutter

Raphioli said:


> I'm receiving "BF is almost ending" e-mails of products that I had on my wishlist and its hard to resist without any demos of MSS...
> I'm hoping there would be at least some kind of a sound clip before Sep 1st (not expecting a proper fully composed demo), just to show off its timbre and the quality of the legatos.


Don't tell me... Century Strings 2.0 Bundle for $209 ends today and if add something else I get the Artisan Brass bundle for free. I can't buy Century AND Scoring Strings, so I have to choose.

I wish I knew what is preventing Audiobro to show us how MSS sounds. The library is even encoded, AFAIK. I don't care about fully produced demos either, any 20 sec noodling would be enough to get a clear picture of what MSS is all about. Jasper Blunk has been sharing naked improvs of Vista for months, using early alpha patches.

I'm grateful for the information provided here and the website but ultimately it's the sound that matters. All this mystery is seriously giving me weird flashbacks. 



stargazer said:


> @dxmachina Would you advice us not owning LASS, to get it while BF lasts to take advantage of the LASS Loyalty Cross-Grade Program?
> Also, for how long will the BF pricing last?


If your goal is to save money, I don't think buying LASS and the cross-grade offer will be cheaper than buying MSS alone at intro price. Please correct me if I'm wrong @dxmachina


----------



## Casiquire

coprhead6 said:


> Unless the music specifically calls for it, “portamento” in real orchestral recordings is just a result of the string players playing a certain fingering. It only happens between certain notes in certain positions and is not very intentional.
> 
> It’s so overused because we have the option as an articulation in our libraries and it sounds cool, but it’s not practical or very tasteful between 75% of notes.
> 
> I would only expect string players like myself to know where to put the portamentos in a mock-up and explaining where they should go would probably have to be a 30 minute Zoom video call with my instrument in hand!
> 
> My most practical advice would be to use them sparingly and in the higher ranges of the instruments.


Composers should know where they would come up naturally and write to them, or use them as an effect. My style of using them is to favor libraries that come with string or finger position control and let them come naturally from that. Dimension Strings is amazing at this. They're very subtle, natural slurs when forcing a particular string


----------



## dxmachina

> In regards to glissandi, how long time wise will the gliss last, or can the gliss timing be altered?
> 
> I want very slow long gliss options, but no library really offers them, as there are so many variables.



Think go them as expressive transitions more than long effects. Easy to overdo - but critical to have for just the right moments in your legato passages.

If you're looking for more of an effect with long pitch bends we do have some stuff like that in the aleatoric samples. It's definitely meant to be aleatoric though, not like a controllable long glass.



> Does MSB have this same capability?


MSB does not have recorded runs.



> Is the legato in LASS sampled (real recorded transitions between intervals), or simulated (manipulating the note ends/attacks with a script)?



Yes... all real recorded note transitions. You probably know this, but to hear the most exaggerated transitions: (1) open the default FC Violin or Cello patch, (2) hold a note, (3) then play another note overlapped but at a very soft velocity within an octave of the first note. That should yield a big scoop-y glissando. If you're still having an issue hearing that shoot us an email... will be happy to help.



> Would you advice us not owning LASS, to get it while BF lasts to take advantage of the LASS Loyalty Cross-Grade Program?
> Also, for how long will the BF pricing last?



If you want to own both libraries it's probably the best deal we'll offer for some time. Not sure about the sale end date... we'll probably send an email later today. But really, don't stress the timing... shoot us an email if there are any concerns there.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

Toecutter said:


> Don't tell me... Century Strings 2.0 Bundle for $209 ends today and if add something else I get the Artisan Brass bundle for free. I can't buy Century AND Scoring Strings, so I have to choose.
> 
> I wish I knew what is preventing Audiobro to show us how MSS sounds. The library is even encoded, AFAIK. I don't care about fully produced demos either, any 20 sec noodling would be enough to get a clear picture of what MSS is all about. Jasper Blunk has been sharing naked improvs of Vista for months, using early alpha patches.
> 
> I'm grateful for the information provided here and the website but ultimately it's the sound that matters. All this mystery is seriously giving me weird flashbacks.
> 
> 
> If your goal is to save money, I don't think buying LASS and the cross-grade offer will be cheaper than buying MSS alone at intro price. Please correct me if I'm wrong @dxmachina




Is that Century Strings 2.0 bundle a special upgrade price because I do not see that price on their website


----------



## zimm83

Hy .Is it possible to start ART with other than sustain pédal ? Thanks.


----------



## Soundbed

EpicEsquire said:


> Is that Century Strings 2.0 bundle a special upgrade price because I do not see that price on their website


I believe the inference was to add this to your cart and apply coupon code LOVEU55 for 55% off, plus tax and taking into account exchange rates. https://8dio.com/instrument/century-brass-bundle/


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Is there any love for us LASS lite owners wrt upgrade pricing...? This looks intriguing & I'm looking forward to hearing some demos!


----------



## dxmachina

> Hy .Is it possible to start ART with other than sustain pédal ? Thanks.



Sure... any CC can do it (or host automation). We keep the pedal as default for historical reasons (it's how it was done with LASS) but I change it for my own usage.



> Is there any love for us LASS lite owners wrt upgrade pricing...?



TBD - but I think there's a good chance.


----------



## Toecutter

EpicEsquire said:


> Is that Century Strings 2.0 bundle a special upgrade price because I do not see that price on their website


I got 65% off because of V8P loyalty program. 55% is still a great deal if you apply the coupon LOVEU55. With purchases over $298, Artisan Brass bundle is free. Nuts I know


----------



## zimm83

dxmachina said:


> Sure... any CC can do it (or host automation). We keep the pedal as default for historical reasons (it's how it was done with LASS) but I change it for my own usage.
> 
> 
> 
> TBD - but I think there's a good chance.


Thanks a lot. I love librairies that allow 
a maximum of tweaks to adapt the workflow to my needs. Like Audiobro's.


----------



## paulmatthew

I'm guessing there will be a crossgrade to MSS Extended for those that have Legato Sordinos 2.5 and Full 2.5? According to the chart , the expanded Legato library(sordino, sul tasto,sul pont) appears to be a separate add on.


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

Were any glissandos recorded? Still seems to be the Achilles heel of all string libraries. Trying to do cues as in Goldsmith's "The Omen" or a million others leaves us high and dry, and no one seems interested in sampling them so far. 
I wrote Berlin Strings, reply was a ridiculous "Perhaps rent a violin and sample them yourself" from the developer, to Spitfire replying "Well we have to sample what we get the most requests for" ...blah blah. 
Looking forward to this new library in any case!


----------



## Raphioli

tomhartmanmusic said:


> Were any glissandos recorded? Still seems to be the Achilles heel of all string libraries. Trying to do cues as in Goldsmith's "The Omen" or a million others leaves us high and dry, and no one seems interested in sampling them so far.
> I wrote Berlin Strings, reply was a ridiculous "Perhaps rent a violin and sample them yourself" from the developer, to Spitfire replying "Well we have to sample what we get the most requests for" ...blah blah.
> Looking forward to this new library in any case!


Spitfires response does make sense. They do need to make profit. Sampling something that is so niche that only a very few people would buy won't make them any profit. They are a company after all. So I clearly understand Spitfires response.
But that OT's response...I don't know what kind of e-mail you wrote to them, but that reply kind of feels like there's some sarcasm in it lol (in my point of view of course)


----------



## Noeticus

I use "SWAM Strings" for Glissandi, but even that has it's limits.


----------



## Soundbed

LASS has great recorded gliss


----------



## Noeticus

tomhartmanmusic said:


> Were any glissandos recorded? Still seems to be the Achilles heel of all string libraries. Trying to do cues as in Goldsmith's "The Omen" or a million others leaves us high and dry, and no one seems interested in sampling them so far.
> I wrote Berlin Strings, reply was a ridiculous "Perhaps rent a violin and sample them yourself" from the developer, to Spitfire replying "Well we have to sample what we get the most requests for" ...blah blah.
> Looking forward to this new library in any case!



Which track from "The Omen"?


----------



## Noeticus

Soundbed said:


> LASS has great recorded gliss


 Yes, but not for very slow gliss.


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

Noeticus said:


> Which track from "The Omen"?



Forgot the name of the cue....it's this:









GLISS EXAMPLE STRINGS.mp3


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

Raphioli said:


> Spitfires response does make sense. They do need to make profit. Sampling something that is so niche that only a very few people would buy won't make them any profit. They are a company after all. So I clearly understand Spitfires response.
> But that OT's response...I don't know what kind of e-mail you wrote to them, but that reply kind of feels like there's some sarcasm in it lol (in my point of view of course)


 
Yes, but a user request may reflect hundreds or even thousands of users who didn't write. 

Regarding Berlin's response, I don't think he was kidding. Here it is:

"
Hi Tom,

these are harmonics glisses... I'm not aware of any sample library that can do this.
However that is something you can create yourself relatively easily. Just buy a cheap violin and layer yourself "playing". "


----------



## Soundbed

Noeticus said:


> Yes, but not for very slow gliss.
> 
> Forgot the name of the cue....it's this:


Ah sorry, did not realize we were talking about special effects. Time Micro has a "harmonic glissandi" patch in the String Quartet section that could help achieve that high strings glass.

Not like your example, but Angel Strings from Auddict has some sampled "Risers" and "Dives" but they are not harmonics like your example.


----------



## Raphioli

tomhartmanmusic said:


> Yes, but a user request may reflect hundreds or even thousands of users who didn't write.


Yes it *may*, but at the same time it may not.
So its a huge bet/risk the company has to make.
If I were the CEO, definitely would not risk it.

Regarding OT's response, I'm not sure what to think of it.
My initial reaction would be like, "oookkkaayy... lol".
Its not something realistic if you don't play a violin at all, at least to me.
An option that's more realistic would be to search a friend who plays a violin (doesn't have to be a professional) and ask him/her to play it for you and sample it. Buy him/her a beer afterwards!
Or you could go the expensive route, asking companies like Performance Simples to make a custom library for you.

BTW, I've exchanged e-mails many times last year with OT and so far,
they have always been respectful.


----------



## Soundbed

Here is the Orchestral Tools' harmonic gliss patch that they recorded (in the String Quartet patch) for Time Micro:


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

Raphioli said:


> Yes it *may*, but at the same time it may not.
> So its a huge bet/risk the company has to make.
> If I were the CEO, definitely would not risk it.
> 
> Regarding OT's response, I'm not sure what to think of it.
> My initial reaction would be like, "oookkkaayy... lol".
> Its not something realistic if you don't play a violin at all, at least to me.
> An option that's more realistic would be to search a friend who plays a violin (doesn't have to be a professional) and ask him/her to play it for you and sample it. Buy him/her a beer afterwards!
> Or you could go the expensive route, asking companies like Performance Simples to make a custom library for you.
> 
> BTW, I've exchanged e-mails many times last year with OT and so far,
> they have always been respectful.



But it's not like asking a company to do an entire library of special effects. It could easily have been added to virtually any sampling session out there. In fact OT has some add on libraries that utilize seldom used techniques/ bowings, etc. Why not this too? I think they just don't listen to enough scores to know what is actually used in scoring besides melodic traditional writing. It happens a lot. I think I've heard it a dozen times in just Netflix features, etc. Sometimes, in the case of scores like "Marathon Man" by Michael Small even a single viola that slowly slides upward, etc. Those are easier, sure, you can just hire a real player. But a section is another story. For some reason, it seems like somewhere in my memory I remember VSL allowing something like this, I had a demo of something new in their software years back and I seem to remember being able to do LONG slides between notes, it's very vague in my memory but I remember thinking "Wow, at last..."....Unfortunately I'm not a VSL fan, or at least what they offered long ago.

Not to mention for composers who wish to work in modernistic atonal areas like Penderecki (also heard in a many films)...one is REALLY out of luck. Looks like you get to hire your own orchestra


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

Soundbed said:


> Ah sorry, did not realize we were talking about special effects. Time Micro has a "harmonic glissandi" patch in the String Quartet section that could help achieve that high strings glass.
> 
> Not like your example, but Angel Strings from Auddict has some sampled "Risers" and "Dives" but they are not harmonics like your example.



You have to be able to pick a starting and ending note a finite number of bars later for this to work...not just a random up/down sample....


----------



## Soundbed

tomhartmanmusic said:


> You have to be able to pick a starting and ending note a finite number of bars later for this to work...not just a random up/down sample....


Obviously, yes.  You are asking for a very specialist library / articulation / tool. I mentioned an example that could get very close, with a little time and possibly pitch shifting and editing in audio. But it depends on how mission critical the work you're doing is... I write TV cues so if I was going for that effect, I'd use this patch, edit it in audio, and move on. You said you were "Trying to do cues" so I figured this was a good starting point... just trying to be helpful.


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

Oh no I appreciate. Just a very neglected area of sampling, while other seldom used articulations seem to be common as either in libraries already or available as add ons, as with the OT Special Bows....


----------



## Eptesicus

Toecutter said:


> I got 65% off because of V8P loyalty program. 55% is still a great deal if you apply the coupon LOVEU55. With purchases over $298, Artisan Brass bundle is free. Nuts I know



I am in 8VP but didnt get any 65% code? Was it something you were sent directly?


----------



## dxmachina

> I'm guessing there will be a crossgrade to MSS Extended for those that have Legato Sordinos 2.5 and Full 2.5?



A good guess. 



> Were any glissandos recorded? Still seems to be the Achilles heel of all string libraries. Trying to do cues as in Goldsmith's "The Omen" or a million others leaves us high and dry, and no one seems interested in sampling them so far.



Like someone else mentioned, transitional glisses were recorded for both LASS and MSS, but not long harmonic or effect glisses.

The effect you're talking about is (first of all) fantastic. It's closer to the aleatoric stuff we have, which has decent variety along these lines (including) long glisses - again recorded per divisi so you can stack. I think the distinction is that you also really want control over this similar to how a legato transition works. I don't see any reason this isn't technically possible, but obviously a costly endeavor depending on how wide you want to record such intervals.

I think you will like the included aleatoric samples in MSS. But, I also think I might have a way to get at this idea given the existing tools/samples. Will it be as good as the real recorded thing? No, recorded is always better. But if you're interested, remind about this after MSS is launched and I'll throw together a quick example for you of what can be done with pretty minimal effort.


----------



## Soundbed

tomhartmanmusic said:


> Oh no I appreciate. Just a very neglected area of sampling, while other seldom used articulations seem to be common as either in libraries already or available as add ons, as with the OT Special Bows....


Yeah ... what I've found is that once a TV show or movie has a soundtrack that all the music supervisors love, asking for "more of _that_ sound," sample libraries begin popping up with _that_ sound.

So while you mention there's a million others like your example, I can't think of many references I've gotten in the past couple years that featured much more than the kind of aleotoric random up/down horror / creepy sounding harmonic glissandi. Rarely do they seem to be looking for that intentional long harmonic slide from note to note, in time. A soundtrack might need to make everyone's hair stand on end to help create demand for that product.

Anyway, 8Dio might have something half useful in the Time Machine section of Symphonic Shadows, or maybe some non tempo matched ones in CAGE or CASE.

... Back to last minute Black Friday / Cyber Monday purchase decisions!


----------



## Soundbed

Eptesicus said:


> I am in 8VP but didnt get any 65% code? Was it something you were sent directly?


The first rule of 8VP is ... yes, they should have emailed it to you.


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

dxmachina said:


> A good guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Like someone else mentioned, transitional glisses were recorded for both LASS and MSS, but not long harmonic or effect glisses.
> 
> The effect you're talking about is (first of all) fantastic. It's closer to the aleatoric stuff we have, which has decent variety along these lines (including) long glisses - again recorded per divisi so you can stack. I think the distinction is that you also really want control over this similar to how a legato transition works. I don't see any reason this isn't technically possible, but obviously a costly endeavor depending on how wide you want to record such intervals.
> 
> I think you will like the included aleatoric samples in MSS. But, I also think I might have a way to get at this idea given the existing tools/samples. Will it be as good as the real recorded thing? No, recorded is always better. But if you're interested, remind about this after MSS is launched and I'll throw together a quick example for you of what can be done with pretty minimal effort.



Oh that's sounds wonderful thanks so much. And it doesn't always have to be as "big" a gliss as in the example from The Omen...sometimes it's a reasonably small one, the key is to be able to not just have it "take off" on it's own, but to be able to control as you say. Like, I want violas (or single viola) to start on "A" below middle C, and by the downbeat of bar 4 I want it to land on G above middle C" that type of thing. I know, I'm being a pain, but that's the stuff I hear a lot in scores. ....thanks again, can't wait for the library!


----------



## ansthenia

MSS coming possibly within the month but no demos to hear it and Afflatus strings black friday 50% sale ends tomorrow, can only get one. Ahhhhh haaallpppp *tears hair out*

EDIT: Couldn't handle the stress and is pursuing different hobby.


----------



## chapbot

ansthenia said:


> MSS coming possibly within the month but no demos to hear it and Afflatus strings black friday 50% sale ends tomorrow, can only get one. Ahhhhh haaallpppp *tears hair out*


Personally I would go with what is available now. For instance Nashville Scoring Strings was supposed to be out first quarter this year and I waited and waited and finally it only came out a few weeks ago. Of course, if Audiobro would only release even the most simple demo you could get a general idea of what it sounds like. Since they won't at least you can be sure you like the tone of Afflatus.


----------



## Beans

I think there's a very high chance that MSS will turn out quite lovely, but the fact is that it does not yet exist in the market.

Like most libraries, a lot of flaws in editing and CPU/RAM and general workflow may take months to uncover, and even longer to address. If you have money to burn, being an early adopter can be great. But the strings market is highly competitive, and there are already a lot of fantastic libraries out there.


----------



## Wunderhorn

A price announcement would (have been) definitely helpful. Especially Century Strings with the 65% 8VP discount or Afflatus at 50% are temping and if the "crossgrade" price for LASS 2.5 users doesn't come close to that, well... it might cause some people to jump on that first and not getting MSS or it might cause people to wait and then perhaps regretting not jumping on the deals when only a certain budget was available.
All that regardless of the quality of MSS - for which I have a lot of faith in.

On another note, the ostinati look especially interesting to me. It looks like you can do Glass-like interval ostinati?
So far all ostinato libraries out there are only geared for same note ostinati. To have independent interval ostinati lines across divisi would be stellar.


----------



## Soundbed

Beans said:


> I think there's a very high chance that MSS will turn out quite lovely, but the fact is that it does not yet exist in the market.
> 
> Like most libraries, a lot of flaws in editing and CPU/RAM and general workflow may take months to uncover, and even longer to address. If you have money to burn, being an early adopter can be great. But the strings market is highly competitive, and there are already a lot of fantastic libraries out there.


I'm guessing AudioBro learned a lot from the Native Instruments Symphony Series.


----------



## dxmachina

> Like most libraries, a lot of flaws in editing and CPU/RAM and general workflow may take months to uncover, and even longer to address.



We're human... but we have had a unified engine since Genesis Children's Choir. It really helps when you don't re-invent the wheel for every library.



> On another note, the ostinati look especially interesting to me. It looks like you can do Glass-like interval ostinati?



You can definitely do those. They work nicely up front and exposed or as background texture.


----------



## Toecutter

chapbot said:


> Personally I would go with what is available now. For instance Nashville Scoring Strings was supposed to be out first quarter this year and I waited and waited and finally it only came out a few weeks ago. Of course, if Audiobro would only release even the most simple demo you could get a general idea of what it sounds like. Since they won't at least you can be sure you like the tone of Afflatus.


You talk a lot of sense. I don't know what is so hard about loading a patch, pressing record and playing a few crude melodies and arrangements. It's even written in big bold letters *Simple to use, more ppowerful than ever! *

Anne goes over many libraries, including LASS, very helpful


----------



## Douglas Romayne

This is truly exciting news. LASS has been at the core of my string sound since 2009. In fact, I had just started reformatting my template to make even more use of the divisi sections for a record project. I'll probably finish setting up just as MSS is released and I'll have to start over! Especially looking forward to the vibrato control and sul tasto. Knowing how dedicated and talented this company is at making strings I'm sure it will be a great end to a rough year.


----------



## zimm83

What is the record Button in ART ?
À réal time record pattern function ?

Why can't we access MSB or Genesis user manual ? Would like to read manuals before buying....have done it many times before...just to understand all the possibilities of the products...
Thanks.


----------



## dxmachina

> What is the record Button in ART ?
> À réal time record pattern function ?



Yes, it let's you record a pattern (including realtime pattern changes) then drag and drop into your DAW.



> Why can't we access MSB or Genesis user manual ?



Email us and we'll provide you links.


----------



## MusiquedeReve

dxmachina said:


> Yes, it let's you record a pattern (including realtime pattern changes) then drag and drop into your DAW.
> 
> 
> 
> Email us and we'll provide you links.



Do you know yet if you will offer a discounted bundle for MSB and MSS?


----------



## Batrawi

zolhof said:


> Here's a rough no-bullshit snippet from a mockup I'm working on.


@zolhof could you please do me/us a favor and don't forget to upload the rest of this mock-up or at least the brass peak part if you ever got the chance to complete it? MSB features are very tempting to me but still can't make my mind to grab it now based on the available demos... your snippet though gives me a very different impression and makes me want to hurry and grab the library if the remaining brass sections are as expressive and beautiful sounding as the trumpets you showed off here


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina A quick Q: How many intervals are included in the MSS trills? Is it only half- and whole-tone (as in LASS), ore are there more, like minor & major thirds? If not, can other trills be realistically recreated using the ostinato or scales engines (_i.e._, can they move fast enough)?


----------



## dxmachina

> Do you know yet if you will offer a discounted bundle for MSB and MSS?



Not sure yet how bundles are going to shake out.



> How many intervals are included in the MSS trills? Is it only half- and whole-tone (as in LASS), ore are there more, like minor & major thirds? If not, can other trills be realistically recreated using the ostinato or scales engines (_i.e._, can they move fast enough)?



Trills are half/whole with automatic diatonic mode (or not if you prefer manual half/whole switching). You can definitely use Ostinatos to do wider trills, but they'd be measured trills.


----------



## GingerMaestro

dxmachina said:


> Not sure yet how bundles are going to shake out.
> 
> 
> 
> Trills are half/whole with automatic diatonic mode (or not if you prefer manual half/whole switching). You can definitely use Ostinatos to do wider trills, but they'd be measured trills.



Another couple of quick questions if you don't mind. Will the Marcato patch have a variable length and is there a detache articulation ?

Do you have any rough idea when the library will be available, Ive not used your libraries before, but a couple of colleagues are big fans and this might be just what I am looking for.

Good Luck and Many Thanks


----------



## Eptesicus

I realise there is a discount for LASS users, but is there any chance of some sort of loyalty scheme (such as how Cinematic Studio does things) for customers who have bought any of your other libraries (ie MSB or Genesis?)


----------



## dxmachina

> Another couple of quick questions if you don't mind. Will the Marcato patch have a variable length and is there a detache articulation ?



In regards to LA Scoring Strings, or the coming Modern Scoring Strings?

LASS has separate patches for each articulation - and LASS Full does have Marcato patches. In this case the notes can be sustained indefinitely post accent.

Modern Scoring Strings has a unified-articulation patch layout, and also has a _lot_ more in terms of recorded options. For the main sustained notes we have 3 styles (including an accent and feathered crescendo) which can again be sustained indefinitely (so the length is controllable for accented long notes by holding the key as long as desired). If you use neither the accented or crescendo attack you will be getting un-accented notes with separate bowing for each note. We did not mark specifically for detaché bowing in this case, but rather just for a very even bowing. 

In terms of accents again - beyond the accented long sustains we did also record a long-short (oxymoronically) martelé as an option (in addition to staccato, staccatissimo, and spiccato). All the shorts also have the ability to tighten their play speeds up (both manually or automatically based on how fast you're playing). 

Sorry, that's a long answer to a short question. 



> Do you have any rough idea when the library will be available



Our goal is to release this month and I'd say that's still looking realistic. 



> I realise there is a discount for LASS users, but is there any chance of some sort of loyalty scheme



We've done it in the past, and we're definitely considering the option. But I can't say with full certainty yet.


----------



## Eptesicus

dxmachina said:


> We've done it in the past, and we're definitely considering the option. But I can't say with full certainty yet.



Cool, thank you.


----------



## Casiquire

tomhartmanmusic said:


> Oh that's sounds wonderful thanks so much. And it doesn't always have to be as "big" a gliss as in the example from The Omen...sometimes it's a reasonably small one, the key is to be able to not just have it "take off" on it's own, but to be able to control as you say. Like, I want violas (or single viola) to start on "A" below middle C, and by the downbeat of bar 4 I want it to land on G above middle C" that type of thing. I know, I'm being a pain, but that's the stuff I hear a lot in scores. ....thanks again, can't wait for the library!


My suggestion, use a library with a recorded smooth gliss such as LASS, use Melodyne, and stretch it to whatever length you need



tomhartmanmusic said:


> Oh that's sounds wonderful thanks so much. And it doesn't always have to be as "big" a gliss as in the example from The Omen...sometimes it's a reasonably small one, the key is to be able to not just have it "take off" on it's own, but to be able to control as you say. Like, I want violas (or single viola) to start on "A" below middle C, and by the downbeat of bar 4 I want it to land on G above middle C" that type of thing. I know, I'm being a pain, but that's the stuff I hear a lot in scores. ....thanks again, can't wait for the library!


The LASS gliss works like this. It's a standard legato-style transition between whatever notes you'd like, but they perform a glissando between the notes


----------



## GingerMaestro

dxmachina said:


> In regards to LA Scoring Strings, or the coming Modern Scoring Strings?
> 
> LASS has separate patches for each articulation - and LASS Full does have Marcato patches. In this case the notes can be sustained indefinitely post accent.
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings has a unified-articulation patch layout, and also has a _lot_ more in terms of recorded options. For the main sustained notes we have 3 styles (including an accent and feathered crescendo) which can again be sustained indefinitely (so the length is controllable for accented long notes by holding the key as long as desired). If you use neither the accented or crescendo attack you will be getting un-accented notes with separate bowing for each note. We did not mark specifically for detaché bowing in this case, but rather just for a very even bowing.
> 
> In terms of accents again - beyond the accented long sustains we did also record a long-short (oxymoronically) martelé as an option (in addition to staccato, staccatissimo, and spiccato). All the shorts also have the ability to tighten their play speeds up (both manually or automatically based on how fast you're playing).
> 
> Sorry, that's a long answer to a short question.
> 
> 
> 
> Our goal is to release this month and I'd say that's still looking realistic.
> 
> 
> 
> We've done it in the past, and we're definitely considering the option. But I can't say with full certainty yet.


Thanks very much, that helps a lot.


----------



## Noeticus

Very, very soon I'm going to start chanting M S S, M S S, M S S!


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina Thanks for your previous answer. A quick follow-up:



dxmachina said:


> You can definitely use Ostinatos to do wider trills, but they'd be measured trills.


The program I use (Sibelius) allows you to play trills of any interval by simply setting the desired interval in semitones, and the app then plays it back by triggering the notes back and forth at an unmeasured speed. Do you think MSS’s legato engine is agile enough to make this sound like a decent trill, or would the result sound messy/fakey?


----------



## dxmachina

> Do you think MSS’s legato engine is agile enough to make this sound like a decent trill, or would the result sound messy/fakey?



I'm not familiar with what exact MIDI Sibelius is sending in this instance, but I just gave this a quick play test and I think it will be workable for you... but not as good as recorded. Still has a more measured feel to it out of the box. If you separate into Vlns1/Vlns2 patches or even further by divisi (add Sibelius adds some element of variation) it will work the best. Otherwise I think the ostinati are a bit more natural, albeit measured.


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina I understand any live solution will never be as good as recorded, but as long as it sounds better than regular sustains being hammered back and forth (as I’ve had to settle for until now) I’ll be happy. So thanks.


----------



## Noc

Sorry for the double post, but it just occurred to me to ask –

@dxmachina I know there are sul pont. sustains & legatos, and regular tremolos, but are there any kind of tremolo sul ponticello, either recorded or simulated? (Or any trems. & shorts other than naturale?)


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> Sorry for the double post, but it just occurred to me to ask –
> 
> @dxmachina I know there are sul pont. sustains & legatos, and regular tremolos, but are there any kind of tremolo sul ponticello, either recorded or simulated? (Or any trems. & shorts other than naturale?)


LASS handled these with a color profile which i think was a very effective compromise. The sordinos blended well just needed some volume adjustments between articulations. I'd be satisfied with a similar solution but if the Genesis engine could handle those volume differences too, that would be amazing


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> LASS handled these with a color profile which i think was a very effective compromise. The sordinos blended well just needed some volume adjustments between articulations. I'd be satisfied with a similar solution but if the Genesis engine could handle those volume differences too, that would be amazing


I’m happy using filters/colors like in LASS to simulate the effect, and I would have expected MSS (especially since the info page boasts of like 50+ presets) to do the same. But I asked about this very thing previously, and Andrew K said there won’t be such presets in the initial release, though they may be looked into later. Bit disappointing, but not the end of any worlds. (It just seems odd to include sul pont. and tremolos, but not their very popular combination. )

So I’m wondering whether or not trem. sul pont. (or others) might be implemented some other way.


----------



## dxmachina

> are there any kind of tremolo sul ponticello, either recorded or simulated?





> (It just seems odd to include sul pont. and tremolos, but not their very popular combination. )



Yes, there are recorded Sul Pont Trems included (Violins, Viola, Celli). Sul Pont accented sustains are also included (in addition to the normale). There are also a variety of aleatoric effects recorded which utilized Sul ponts - with pitch bending/wavering, trem, etc. But the "bread-and-butter" sul pont trem is included. If that's not in our articulation chart we need to fix it!

In regards specifically to timbral colors like in LASS - those won't be in 1.0 - but that's not to say that there won't be presets included to get at different orchestral sounds with a single click. Given the depth of recorded material here (in addition to the multi mic setup) I think it will remain to be seen what (if anything) you guys will be wishing for in terms of further presets. We tend to be very user-driven in regards to this stuff.


----------



## Daniel

Sticked with old Lass 1.5 here, unless MSS is easier to use.


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina Glad to hear trem. sul pont. will be included! I assumed it wasn’t because I indeed don’t see it listed in the articulations chart on the info page. Will the trem. sul pont. also be available with LPG?

As for presets, my is to be able to simulate as many technique combinations as possible – pizz. sordino, tremolo sul tasto, staccato sul pont., etc. Similar to what the sordino-izer color did in LASS 2.5, but also applied to sul pont. and sul tasto for as many articulations as possible.

Other than that, I’m speculating on what the presets will be like here, but I hope they’re consistent across all articulations equally. For example, in LASS 2.5, I generally use the “Fellowship Ring” color for that beautiful lush sound, but whenever I write in sordino I have to either use the default “dry” sordino tone or one of the sordino-specific colors, which don’t include “Fellowship Ring”, so the tone sounds a bit different. I don’t know what all presets are available with MSS, but if they allow for tonal consistency across the different articulations, that’d be everything on my wishlist.


----------



## Casiquire

Sorry if this has already been covered, but is MSS *in addition to* LASS3.0 or has it overtaken and replaced it?

Edit for the sake of detail, I'm referring to LASS3.0 as a substantive update with new features and articulations as opposed to just a port to the new interface


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Sorry if this has already been covered, but is MSS *in addition to* LASS3.0 or has it overtaken and replaced it?
> 
> Edit for the sake of detail, I'm referring to LASS3.0 as a substantive update with new features and articulations as opposed to just a port to the new interface



I don't think there will be a LASS 3 release, MSS is the new Standard that will replace LASS 2.5 , at least I haven't heard any official mention of LASS 3 being released. That's my conclusion.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> I don't think there will be a LASS 3 release, MSS is the new Standard that will replace LASS 2.5 , at least I haven't heard any official mention of LASS 3 being released. That's my conclusion.


At the very least we know it's getting ported to the new player


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> At the very least we know it's getting ported to the new player



MSS is all new samples, it doesn't share much with LASS. I think only the FC Viola samples are ported to MSS.


----------



## prodigalson

Casiquire said:


> At the very least we know it's getting ported to the new player



Do we? How do we know this isn't their new string library and LASS 2.5 will be abandoned?


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> MSS is all new samples, it doesn't share much with LASS. I think only the FC Viola samples are ported to MSS.





prodigalson said:


> Do we? How do we know this isn't their new string library and LASS 2.5 will be abandoned?


Andrew said that LASS will move to the new player after MSS is released over in the Audiobro forums. The only thing that's not clear to me is whether there will still be a massive update like has been discussed for the last few years


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Andrew said that LASS will move to the new player after MSS is released over in the Audiobro forums. The only thing that's not clear to me is whether there will still be a massive update like has been discussed for the last few years



Hmm.. That's very interesting, I need to visit the AudioBro Forum to check the latest posts.

So LASS 3 is another release we can expect to see in the future. I didn't expect that. 

If LASS 3 is LASS 2.5 but using the new player, that would be very nice, since MSS is all new samples, so more options, and the big thing for me would be the new player for LASS 3. Easier to use, and possibly more features to customize the library, and its sounds to taste. 

Thanks.


----------



## chapbot

Casiquire said:


> Andrew said that LASS will move to the new player after MSS is released over in the Audiobro forums. The only thing that's not clear to me is whether there will still be a massive update like has been discussed for the last few years


This is correct I have also read that LASS will benefit from the new player. One would assume they would have to tweak it to fit the new player so maybe it will be updated somehow.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> The only thing that's not clear to me is whether there will still be a massive update like has been discussed for the last few years



By massive update, you mean more sample contents ? or .. ?


----------



## Batrawi

I'm in deep need for some MSS demos now.


Casiquire said:


> Andrew said that LASS will move to the new player after MSS is released over in the Audiobro forums. The only thing that's not clear to me is whether there will still be a massive update like has been discussed for the last few years


I don't think there will or should be a major update for LASS beyond the migration to the new engine now that MSS will become the new flagship library worthy of more attention from Audiobro to ensure it's properly established/improved with all of its expansions. To my understanding, the talk about LASS major updates in the past was Audiobro's initial idea which however grew bigger and transformed into a completely new product (MSS) with new setup/recording/scripting techniques which cannot logically be adapted to older ways of LASS.


----------



## muziksculp

Anywhere to buy some patience ? I'm running out of it with all the waiting this month


----------



## Beans

muziksculp said:


> Anywhere to buy some patience ? I'm running out of it with all the waiting this month



Easy: spend your budget fast, so that you have no chance of buying anything else. My severe agony over the wait for CSW, for example, is over because I already spent as much as I'll allow. It's a non-issue.


----------



## muziksculp

Beans said:


> Easy: spend your budget fast, so that you have no chance of buying anything else. My severe agony over the wait for CSW, for example, is over because I already spent as much as I'll allow. It's a non-issue.



Haha.. I'm trying to avoid that from happening. But my patience seems to be running thin. 

It feels like all the important/more exciting libraries I'm anticipating are on some odd constipation diet.


----------



## Toecutter

Orchestral Tools will announce something BIG on the 17th, Cinesamples coming up with a new orchestral line, Sonokinetic new strings.... lord help us! Meanwhile, MSS and Vista nowhere to be seen


----------



## Raphioli

Toecutter said:


> Meanwhile, MSS and Vista nowhere to be seen


Not sure about that.

I mean, we don't know any specifics about OTs new "thing".
We also don't know anything about what Cinesamples up to.

But we do have a GUI and all the features explained in detail on Audiobro's website.
We also have lots of demos for Vista.
We don't have any of those for OT and Cinesamples new thing.


----------



## Beans

Toecutter said:


> Cinesamples coming up with a new orchestral line



I'd be happy with just a fix to my CineBrass hanging notes.


----------



## Toecutter

Beans said:


> I'd be happy with just a fix to my CineBrass hanging notes.


1.8? It's very rare but I get hanging notes with the trombones, seems very random. Support can't help me since we can't reproduce it. Same with you?


----------



## Beans

Toecutter said:


> 1.8? It's very rare but I get hanging notes with the trombones, seems very random. Support can't help me since we can't reproduce it. Same with you?



Yes, recent purchase, fresh install. I've read threads here, on other boards, and Twitter that tried and failed to address it.


----------



## novaburst

Since the release of LA Scoring Strings in 2009, we have been asked repeatedly when Audiobro will release a new or updated strings library. We have _always_ said that we would do it only as soon as we *believed that we could push the quality and versatility of strings sampling forward a generation. We think you’ll agree that we have.
Read on to discover a few reasons we think MSS might delight you.*







This is quite the statement because LASS is very good so what they are saying they have a better library,

one word........... WOW


----------



## muziksculp

I'm super excited about the release of the new AudioBro *MSS* Library. 

Finally, No more convoluted Auto-Divisi setup which was a pain in the ... in LASS, MSS will make it so much easier, faster, and better to do this ! 

Auto-Divisi automatically adapts to your player choices. 

Plus easy placement of players on an X/Y Pad, and tweaking of their stage amounts for each mic. Plus, volume, pan, and width per player, and 52 IR Preset Ambiences to choose from.


----------



## artomatic

The tone, overall sound will make or break it for me...
Proud owner off LASS but wasn't quite thrilled with its tone - but loved all the features
and unique options.


----------



## Noc

I agree about the importance of tone. All the features so far sound incredible and I can’t wait to try it out … but whether I end up using it, and how often I do, will all come down to how it sounds. (Rather obviously, I know.) Really wish Audiobro would drop a demo before the release, even just a simple piece of noodling around. Something to give an idea of how it sounds.

Personally, I didn’t mind LASS’s drier tone, as the sheer realism and beauty of it was more than enough for me. (That demo video demonstrating the auto-divisi with the cello damn near made me weep.) And _then_ I started using colors more, and that solved the tone issue altogether.


----------



## Toecutter

Noc said:


> I agree about the importance of tone. All the features so far sound incredible and I can’t wait to try it out … but whether I end up using it, and how often I do, will all come down to how it sounds. (Rather obviously, I know.) Really wish Audiobro would drop a demo before the release, even just a simple piece of noodling around. Something to give an idea of how it sounds.
> 
> Personally, I didn’t mind LASS’s drier tone, as the sheer realism and beauty of it was more than enough for me. (That demo video demonstrating the auto-divisi with the cello damn near made me weep.) And _then_ I started using colors more, and that solved the tone issue altogether.


Same, tone will be the deciding factor no matter how feature packed the library is. I said something along the same lines a week ago...



Toecutter said:


> I don't know what is so hard about loading a patch, pressing record and playing a few crude melodies and arrangements. It's even written in big bold letters *Simple to use, more powerful than ever! *



Throw us a bone here!


----------



## muziksculp

artomatic said:


> The tone, overall sound will make or break it for me...
> Proud owner off LASS but wasn't quite thrilled with its tone - but loved all the features
> and unique options.




I totally agree.

No great tone/timbre, means no MSS for me. I'm sure AudioBro is aware of how important the timbre/tone quality of MSS is for it to be a success in 2020. This imho. was one of the main issues I had with LASS, besides others.


----------



## Batrawi

Assuming the MS Series have been recorded in the same stage, I have a good feeling MSS tone will be good, cause strings are closer to the human voice(Genesis) than brass(MSB) if that's what you're worried about. But actually for me, a good sounding strings library is the one that has a neutral, tight and warm ambiance... like LASS BUT maybe not as harsh. Also imagine if LASS didn't have any tuning issues, or unbalanced legato volume etc, etc... (the kind of issues that should be taken care of in a more modern library such as MSS), I think no one would have complained about LASS in the first place.


----------



## ag75

muziksculp said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> No great tone/timbre, means no MSS for me. I'm sure AudioBro is aware of how important the timbre/tone quality of MSS is for it to be a success in 2020. This imho. was one of the main issues I had with LASS, besides others.


LASS isn’t for everyone. I, for one, am glad LASS doesn’t sound like every other library.


----------



## novaburst

artomatic said:


> The tone, overall sound will make or break it for me...
> Proud owner off LASS but wasn't quite thrilled with its tone - but loved all the features
> and unique options.



I am in love the gritty grine sound of LASS you know you are using LASS when that tone is there 

I just hope they don't go for one of those silky metallic tone, that grit in LASS is what sold me it feels like that's how strings should sound you can almost hear the wood of the strings, plus becuase this sound is very different from the regular sound it becomes a layer delight when used with a different library,


----------



## jules

I just hope both lass and mss will stay available in the store, as a not-yet lass owner...


----------



## zimm83

So many good things to end this year !!!
Can't wait...


----------



## CSNV

I absolutely don't understand the criticism on LASS sound.

The beauty of LASS is the fact that the sound is quite unprocessed, and you hear a lot of details of the strings, bows and wood. This allows you to tailor the sound to your taste, it's very flexible unlike so much libraries (you can even change the number of players thanks to the divisi sections). You find it too harsh ? Use a negative high shelf EQ. Too dry ? Add a tail reverb. Too near ? Add early reflections. Too much bow ? Add a negative bell EQ at the good frequency.

It's way better than the opposite. Too much reverb already on the samples for a more intimate sounding track ? No good solution. Too dark ? Adding highs will also boost the noise floor. Etc. In mixing, removing frequencies and adding reverb always sounds 1000x better than trying to add non-existent frequencies and to remove reverb.

And it's not only a question of mixing, but of recording before all. And LASS is very well recorded, you can hear it was done by competent sound engineers with very good gear. I heard so much libraries who were badly recorded, where they tried to hide this behind too much processing.

Plus the fact that this precise and quite dry sound allowed Audiobro to edit samples very carefully. Thanks to this, the legatos, portamentos and dynamic transitions are very smooth ; so impressive for a 2009 library, and actually still better than 99% of the other libraries (the only stuff not always smooth are the glissandos, but almost all libraries just don't have them, so it's always better than nothing). Also, way too much libraries (especially the wet ones) contain a lot of human and chair noises in the tails, on the opposite LASS is super clean.


----------



## Go To 11

Toecutter said:


> Orchestral Tools will announce something BIG on the 17th, Cinesamples coming up with a new orchestral line, Sonokinetic new strings.... lord help us! Meanwhile, MSS and Vista nowhere to be seen


I'm curious about the Cinesamples line too!


----------



## prodigalson

novaburst said:


> you can almost hear the wood of the strings



no wonder it sounds the way it does if they were playing with wooden strings!!


----------



## Casiquire

CSNV said:


> I absolutely don't understand the criticism on LASS sound.
> 
> The beauty of LASS is the fact that the sound is quite unprocessed, and you hear a lot of details of the strings, bows and wood. This allows you to tailor the sound to your taste, it's very flexible unlike so much libraries (you can even change the number of players thanks to the divisi sections). You find it too harsh ? Use a negative high shelf EQ. Too dry ? Add a tail reverb. Too near ? Add early reflections. Too much bow ? Add a negative bell EQ at the good frequency.
> 
> It's way better than the opposite. Too much reverb already on the samples for a more intimate sounding track ? No good solution. Too dark ? Adding highs will also boost the noise floor. Etc. In mixing, removing frequencies and adding reverb always sounds 1000x better than trying to add non-existent frequencies and to remove reverb.
> 
> And it's not only a question of mixing, but of recording before all. And LASS is very well recorded, you can hear it was done by competent sound engineers with very good gear. I heard so much libraries who were badly recorded, where they tried to hide this behind too much processing.
> 
> Plus the fact that this precise and quite dry sound allowed Audiobro to edit samples very carefully. Thanks to this, the legatos, portamentos and dynamic transitions are very smooth ; so impressive for a 2009 library, and actually still better than 99% of the other libraries (the only stuff not always smooth are the glissandos, but almost all libraries just don't have them, so it's always better than nothing). Also, way too much libraries (especially the wet ones) contain a lot of human and chair noises in the tails, on the opposite LASS is super clean.


That's exactly why I love it so much. Little chameleon library that can do anything


----------



## Batrawi

...and as we're waiting for MSS, did you know that you can edit LASS under the hood to fully stretch its legato transitions?!! sounds absolutely phenomenal and REAL... check out how to do it here (it's a killer secret weapon):






Edit "legato transition" speed in Kontakt?


Is there a way to edit the speed of a true legato transition under the hood within Kontakt? If yes, would appreciate if you can direct me to a step-by-step reference as I'm not so knowledgeable with Kontakt script/editing Thanks




vi-control.net


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> ...and as we're waiting for MSS, did you know that you can edit LASS under the hood to fully stretch its legato transitions?!! sounds absolutely phenomenal and REAL... check out how to do it here (it's a killer secret weapon):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit "legato transition" speed in Kontakt?
> 
> 
> Is there a way to edit the speed of a true legato transition under the hood within Kontakt? If yes, would appreciate if you can direct me to a step-by-step reference as I'm not so knowledgeable with Kontakt script/editing Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



@Batrawi ,

Thanks for the Legato editing tip link for LASS.

I'm going to put more time when I can, to re-evaluate LASS, I might have miss judged them, I'm also hoping that I will also enjoy them more when they are ported to the new Kontakt Engine, which will make setting up auto-divisi a breeze compared to the current system, I find the current system setup too convoluted.

Q. Do you use LASS 2.5 as any other Strings library, i.e. the load patches, and play ? or are you using it via the ARC auto-divisi multi-system ?

I'm very excited about the release of MSS this month.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> Q. Do you use LASS 2.5 as any other Strings library, i.e. the load patches, and play ? or are you using it via the ARC auto-divisi multi-system ?


I don't use ARC, I just load individual patches as needed. For divisi writing I just use this multiscript which is way easier






Multi Divisi Script v6.5


Multi Divisi Script v6.5 This multiscript takes incoming polyphonic midi data and divides it between (up-to) six (monophonic) instruments. v6.5 added: Note Off Delay (NOD) can sometimes help with stuck notes in heavily scripted instruments. User assignable CCs for various controls Many...




vi-control.net


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> I don't use ARC, I just load individual patches as needed. For divisi writing I just use this multiscript which is way easier
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multi Divisi Script v6.5
> 
> 
> Multi Divisi Script v6.5 This multiscript takes incoming polyphonic midi data and divides it between (up-to) six (monophonic) instruments. v6.5 added: Note Off Delay (NOD) can sometimes help with stuck notes in heavily scripted instruments. User assignable CCs for various controls Many...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net



Hi @Batrawi ,

Thanks for your helpful feedback. Hopefully when LASS is ported to the new player, there would be a need to use a multi-script.

I would use *Divisimate by Nextmidi* https://nextmidi.com/, I will also check the divisi multi-script you posted here.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## jaketanner

ag75 said:


> Well this is exciting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com


Seem this is our "LASS 3"?


----------



## muziksculp

jaketanner said:


> Seem this is our "LASS 3"?



Not really, MSS is their new Strings library, all new samples, using their new Kontakt Engine. 

They also mentioned that LASS 3 will be released next year, it will be using their new Kontakt Engine, but the same LASS samples. 

So they are two different libraries. MSS will be released this month. LASS 3 next year.


----------



## jaketanner

muziksculp said:


> Not really, MSS is their new Strings library, all new samples, using their new Kontakt Engine.
> 
> They also mentioned that LASS 3 will be released next year, it will be using their new Kontakt Engine, but the same LASS samples.
> 
> So they are two different libraries. MSS will be released this month. LASS 3 next year.


wow really? That is insane...seems like they're competing with themselves...because they're offering a big loyalty discount for LASS owners...seems odd that they would actually release a LASS 3...but more the merrier...LOL


----------



## muziksculp

jaketanner said:


> wow really? That is insane...seems like they're competing with themselves...because they're offering a big loyalty discount for LASS owners...seems odd that they would actually release a LASS 3...but more the merrier...LOL



Yeah.. I was initially under the impression that they will just be replacing LASS 3 with MSS, but that's not the case.


----------



## Kevinside

Interesting, how many are thinking, LASS is great and hoping the new library MSS will be wonderful...
I am not a fan of VSL Silent Stage and LASS is even more worse...


----------



## Batrawi

Kevinside said:


> Interesting, how many are thinking, LASS is great and hoping the new library MSS will be wonderful...
> I am not a fan of VSL Silent Stage and LASS is even more worse...


LASS is great cause it's the closest thing to real strings as if you were sitting with the players in a tight ambience which I find really well responsive to all kind of mixes. Totally different from the silent stage concept imo which sucks the instruments natural resonnace/interaction with the room


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> LASS is great cause it's the closest thing to real strings as if you were sitting with the players in a tight ambience which I find really well responsive to all kind of mixes. Totally different from the silent stage concept imo which sucks the instruments natural resonnace/interaction with the room



I agree. LASS isn't exactly "dry", it just has a snipped tail.



jaketanner said:


> wow really? That is insane...seems like they're competing with themselves...because they're offering a big loyalty discount for LASS owners...seems odd that they would actually release a LASS 3...but more the merrier...LOL



Yes and no. I think they recognize the value of LASS, but they also recognize some things that people don't like about it. So they're coming out with a new library that fixes those issues and offers new articulations and microphone positions making it even more flexible, but that doesn't mean there's no room for LASS


----------



## jaketanner

Casiquire said:


> Yes and no. I think they recognize the value of LASS, but they also recognize some things that people don't like about it. So they're coming out with a new library that fixes those issues and offers new articulations and microphone positions making it even more flexible, but that doesn't mean there's no room for LASS


glad that they are taking care of the LASS owners then. I don't have it (I have way too many strings as it is), but I do like the concept...


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

It's funny because many like Hollywood Strings (me including). LASS isn't that different, both have this scoring stage sound with a short reverb tail. Indeed LASS has a different colour (grittier and more close miked) than HS. I think they both are rather unprocessed, because I read that Shawn Murphy usually uses minimal EQ. Not sure if this is true for the Hollywood series.

Concerning VSL's Silent Stage: If you know how to use reverb the right way you can make it sound like LASS or Hollywood Orchestra. Because the Silent Stage is a "stage" with a short reverb as any other of these scoring stages, only drastically smaller, with advantages like low noise floor (= "silent") and an overall neutral tone. Don't know why many think that VSL's VI range is dry as a bone. Actually you could use the raw sound, too, and you'll get a classic, dry, but small scoring stage sound (think of Star Wars IV). You only have to pan the instruments.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Batrawi said:


> ...and as we're waiting for MSS, did you know that you can edit LASS under the hood to fully stretch its legato transitions?!! sounds absolutely phenomenal and REAL... check out how to do it here (it's a killer secret weapon):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit "legato transition" speed in Kontakt?
> 
> 
> Is there a way to edit the speed of a true legato transition under the hood within Kontakt? If yes, would appreciate if you can direct me to a step-by-step reference as I'm not so knowledgeable with Kontakt script/editing Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Thrilled. Could you show us the result of the Legato transitions before and after use of the phenomenal weapon?


----------



## Batrawi

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Thrilled. Could you show us the result of the Legato transitions before and after use of the phenomenal weapon?



Here you go. 3 examples A/B'ing between default legato vs edited one. I don't know how Audiobro have cut their LASS' default legato to be that short which really doesn't do just to the library. I hope this won't be the case in MSS & LASS 3 where the 'legato speed' knob should give us control over the full transition.


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> Here you go. 3 examples A/B'ing between default legato vs edited one. I don't know how Audiobro have cut their LASS' default legato to be that short which really doesn't do just to the library. I hope this won't be the case in MSS & LASS 3 where the 'legato speed' knob should give us control over the full transition.



Your Secret Weapon works


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> Your Secret Weapon works


actually that's @Pixelpoet1985 secret weapon. I just had to pull the words out of his mouth to bring it to the public 😄


----------



## FinGael

Batrawi said:


> Here you go. 3 examples A/B'ing between default legato vs edited one. I don't know how Audiobro have cut their LASS' default legato to be that short which really doesn't do just to the library. I hope this won't be the case in MSS & LASS 3 where the 'legato speed' knob should give us control over the full transition.



That is quite a difference.  Thank you for sharing.


----------



## muziksculp

OK. So, Thanks to You, and to @Pixelpoet1985 , and @rottoy . Who have contributed with helpful info. on the link thread. 

Using TM-Pro to time stretch Legato Transitions is one way to deal with improving Legato Transitions. 

But, if I wanted to perform this on another Strings Library, I need to know what are the sample names used by the library developer for their Legato Transition samples.


----------



## Beans

Liar. That's a completely different library. It's gotta be. Completely different. For sure. No way.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Batrawi said:


> Here you go. 3 examples A/B'ing between default legato vs edited one. I don't know how Audiobro have cut their LASS' default legato to be that short which really doesn't do just to the library. I hope this won't be the case in MSS & LASS 3 where the 'legato speed' knob should give us control over the full transition.


That's great! Thank you, the example sounds convincing and this is a real improvement over what was before. I'm not sure how well this trick will work with other libraries that lack Legato control. The first library that affected me properly is "CSS" with its smooth transitions. Now, after it, all the other libraries seem to me to have a bad Legato. "Con Moto" is an exception.


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> Using TM-Pro to time stretch Legato Transitions is one way to deal with improving Legato Transitions.


No no, it's not time stretching at all, it's sample start stretching. just go to pixelpoet's last post in the thread I shared which explains step-by-step


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> But, if I wanted to perform this on another Strings Library, I need to know what are the sample names used by the library developer for their Legato Transition samples.


first the legato patch needs to be unlocked by the developer. when you go in the sample editor, and play a legato note, you can find the relevant sample name/group being momentarily lit during the transition duration. find them and select them. LASS has a sample for each note transition (up and down) so you need to tick them all. other developers has all the legato transitions grouped in a single group which makes things easier in this case.. so it varies from developer to another and sometime may not really work if the legato transitions were originally recorded like $h!t


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Actually, it's not stretching. In case of LASS it only worked because the "original" longer transition had been preserved. The "secret weapon" was to offset the sample start backwards (i.e. to hear more of the original transition).


----------



## muziksculp

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> The "secret weapon" was to offset the sample start backwards (i.e. to hear more of the original transition)



Oh.. I see. So, it's only an offset control. 

Thanks for the helpful feedback.


----------



## ChristianM

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> There is no love for the viola.


Maybe they couldn't record it with the covid?


----------



## ChristianM

jamwerks said:


> That was their first shot at Brass, and the whole concept of using only solists and centered-recording for MSB was a mistake imo. But they delivered lots of arts and was seeming usable (though I didn't buy).
> 
> With Strings I don't think they'll get this wrong, and I like center-recording for Strings, as I like to change out the Vl. II's & Celli position wise. The whole-divisi thing is un-necessary imo, but if the sound is good, it'll be great. Lot's of interesting features apparently!


I like MSB


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. I see. So, it's only an offset control.
> 
> Thanks for the helpful feedback.



You're welcome!

It's not really a weapon. I think it's the same system developers use when they're offering a speed-controllable legato. I'm not sure, of course.

For instance: 
MSB has a legato speed slider. I think it does the steps I described under the hood. The slider sets the maximum transition length (= i.e. how far the sample start is offset backwards). And inside this range, the transition length is dependent on your playing speed.

In my "guide" I described this under the point "optional". If you want this, you could make the transition length dependent on anything you want (e.g. velocity). Pity that Kontakt doesn't have a speed option there, maybe it's very tricky to program.


----------



## muziksculp

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> You're welcome!
> 
> It's not really a weapon. I think it's the same system developers use when they're offering a speed-controllable legato. I'm not sure, of course.
> 
> For instance:
> MSB has a legato speed slider. I think it does the steps I described under the hood. The slider sets the maximum transition length (= i.e. how far the sample start is offset backwards). And inside this range, the transition length is dependent on your playing speed.
> 
> In my "guide" I described this under the point "optional". If you want this, you could make the transition length dependent on anything you want (e.g. velocity). Pity that Kontakt doesn't have a speed option there, maybe it's very tricky to program.



Thanks.

I was trying to use the Time-Machine Pro 2 to edit some samples (not LASS), but I got this message, I wasn't able to use TM.

What does the message mean/indicate ?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Sorry, actually I have no clue and don‘t use Kontakt very often.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Couldn’t you unpurge the samples then?


----------



## muziksculp

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Couldn’t you unpurge the samples then?



This is a commercial library, but not LASS, so I have no idea. I didn't purge any samples, not sure how to unpurge samples I have not purged. Anyways... I'm not editing LASS, it's another library . I'm guessing if the Samples are locked, then the mode can't be switched ? or .... ? Will have to some more research on this detail.


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> What does the message mean/indicate ?


this means that the group(s) you've selected contains either articulations or mic positions that aren't loaded. Make sure to select *only* groups for samples that you've actually loaded.


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> this means that the group(s) you've selected contains either articulations or mic positions that aren't loaded. Make sure to select *only* groups for samples that you've actually loaded.



OK. Thanks for the feedback. I will check carefully.


----------



## jadedsean

Batrawi said:


> Here you go. 3 examples A/B'ing between default legato vs edited one. I don't know how Audiobro have cut their LASS' default legato to be that short which really doesn't do just to the library. I hope this won't be the case in MSS & LASS 3 where the 'legato speed' knob should give us control over the full transition.


That sounds killer, i am a complete idiot when it comes to Kontakt, does it work on only specific patches? I just open up the group editor on Cellos A leg Sustains and don't see legato samples. I am sure its there, i am just not seeing it though. Any chance anyone could make a video of this?


----------



## Batrawi

So the Modern Scoring series only have Auto-Divisi which arranges only between the same instruments (e.g Vln1A&Vln2B) but no Auto-Arranger which arranges between different instruments (e.g Vln&Vla&Cello&Basses)???  If so, then what a bummer cose that was one of LASS' absolute strength points
@dxmachina I hope I'm mistaken? I assumed this based on MSS stage screen shots. I also just got MSB and couldn't yet find any Auto-arranging functionality.... but again, I hope I'm mistaken


----------



## robh

Batrawi said:


> So the Modern Scoring series only have Auto-Divisi which arranges only between the same instruments (e.g Vln1A&Vln2B) but no Auto-Arranger which arranges between different instruments (e.g Vln&Vla&Cello&Basses)???  If so, then what a bummer cose that was one of LASS' absolute strength points
> @dxmachina I hope I'm mistaken? I assumed this based on MSS stage screen shots. I also just got MSB and couldn't yet find any Auto-arranging functionality.... but again, I hope I'm mistaken


I have MSB (and LASS) and you can definitely do Auto-Arranger with Vln & Vla & Cello & Basses. You will need 5 instances of Kontakt (one for each section) on the same channel, and you set up Auto Arranger in each instance as if they were all in one patch.For example, Violins 1 would be voice 1, Violins 2 would be voice 2, etc. The flexibility can get even more complex than that if you wish, like having the Basses play the same voice as the cellos, only an octave below.

Rob


----------



## maestro2be

Batrawi said:


> Here you go. 3 examples A/B'ing between default legato vs edited one. I don't know how Audiobro have cut their LASS' default legato to be that short which really doesn't do just to the library. I hope this won't be the case in MSS & LASS 3 where the 'legato speed' knob should give us control over the full transition.


That is really quite an awesome upgrade to an already great legato. Me likes it a lot 😁.


----------



## Batrawi

jadedsean said:


> I just open up the group editor on Cellos A leg Sustains and don't see legato samples.


Legato samples won't necessarily be named "legato". In the case of LASS they start with the word "Norm" (as normal legato), so select all groups that start with this word. Here again is an illustrated step-by-step:
1-in *Group Editor* select the groups and ONLY those groups that contain legato transitions (make sure to deselect everything else)
2-in *Source*, select "sampler"
3-in *Mod*, select "constant", "invert" and "sample start"
4-move slider all the way to the right for full legato transition (the lesser to the right, the shorter the legato transition)





Edited 1st step for better clarity


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> Legato samples won't necessarily be named "legato". In the case of LASS they start with the word "Norm" (as normal legato), so select all groups that start with this word. Here again is an illustrated step-by-step:
> 1-select all groups and ONLY those groups containing the legato transitions
> 2-in *Source*, select "sampler"
> 3-in *Mod*, select "constant", "invert" and "sample start"
> 4-move slider all the way to the right for full legato transition (the lesser to the right, the shorter the legato transition)


Is that slider CC controllable? I can see a lot of use in that


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> Is that slider CC controllable? I can see a lot of use in that


I really don't know or didn't bother to experiment further as I was already satisfied with what I got 

Edit: just gave it a shot and YES it is CC assignable


----------



## zimm83

robh said:


> I have MSB (and LASS) and you can definitely do Auto-Arranger with Vln & Vla & Cello & Basses. You will need 5 instances of Kontakt (one for each section) on the same channel, and you set up Auto Arranger in each instance as if they were all in one patch.For example, Violins 1 would be voice 1, Violins 2 would be voice 2, etc. The flexibility can get even more complex than that if you wish, like having the Basses play the same voice as the cellos, only an octave below.
> 
> Rob


I'm making that with LAss LS. Really UNIQUE ! Love it.


----------



## Noc

Batrawi said:


> Legato samples won't necessarily be named "legato". In the case of LASS they start with the word "Norm" (as normal legato), so select all groups that start with this word. Here again is an illustrated step-by-step:
> 1-select all groups and ONLY those groups containing the legato transitions
> 2-in *Source*, select "sampler"
> 3-in *Mod*, select "constant", "invert" and "sample start"
> 4-move slider all the way to the right for full legato transition (the lesser to the right, the shorter the legato transition)


This is magnificent and it works perfectly with LASS Full. Thanks for posting it.

However, I tried it on various LASS Legato Sordino patches, and despite repeating the same exact steps, the slider doesn’t seem to have any noticeable effect; the legato transitions sound unchanged to my ears whether it’s at 0% or 100%. Does anyone know if there’s something different about LS? Were its legato transitions just recorded shorter or something, rendering this trick moot?

Update: Doesn’t seem to work with LASS Full’s Legato Tremolo and Legato Trills patches either. As far as I can tell, this trick only works on Legato Sustains. Curious if anyone else hears a difference.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> Is that slider CC controllable? I can see a lot of use in that



Yes, I already answered in one of my previous posts, and in my original post in the other thread. You can use anything you want, e.g. velocity.


----------



## Batrawi

Noc said:


> Were its legato transitions just recorded shorter or something,


this could be the case with LASS LS. A perfect example that this trick won't necessarily work with every library... even if made by the very same developer  (which is admittedly strange)


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noc said:


> This is magnificent and it works perfectly with LASS Full. Thanks for posting it.
> 
> However, I tried it on various LASS Legato Sordino patches, and despite repeating the same exact steps, the slider doesn’t seem to have any noticeable effect; the legato transitions sound unchanged to my ears whether it’s at 0% or 100%. Does anyone know if there’s something different about LS? Were its legato transitions just recorded shorter or something, rendering this trick moot?
> 
> Update: Doesn’t seem to work with LASS Full’s Legato Tremolo and Legato Trills patches either. As far as I can tell, this trick only works on Legato Sustains. Curious if anyone else hears a difference.



I will investigate if I can find the time. 

Have you looked at the wave editor? There you can see if the sample start is treated the same way. If it's cut, you have no chance to offset the sample start.


----------



## Noc

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I will investigate if I can find the time.
> 
> Have you looked at the wave editor? There you can see if the sample start is treated the same way. If it's cut, you have no chance to offset the sample start.


Unfortunately, I’m an absolute amateur with Kontakt and have no idea how to use the Wave Editor to check this. (I only managed the legato trick itself by carefully following the written and visual instructions.) It would great if someone could do it, though. It’s very possible there is a difference – maybe a smaller one – and I’m just not hearing it; my hearing unfortunately isn’t the best.


----------



## jadedsean

Batrawi said:


> Legato samples won't necessarily be named "legato". In the case of LASS they start with the word "Norm" (as normal legato), so select all groups that start with this word. Here again is an illustrated step-by-step:
> 1-select all groups and ONLY those groups containing the legato transitions
> 2-in *Source*, select "sampler"
> 3-in *Mod*, select "constant", "invert" and "sample start"
> 4-move slider all the way to the right for full legato transition (the lesser to the right, the shorter the legato transition)




I keep getting this warning, what am i doing wrong? I am such a noob at anything Kontakt.


----------



## Batrawi

jadedsean said:


> I keep getting this warning, what am i doing wrong? I am such a noob at anything Kontakt.


read carefully the first step "_1-select all groups *and ONLY those groups* containing the legato transitions"_
If you don't know what you're selecting exactly then there is a possibility that you could be blindly selecting samples that aren't by default loaded or available for this patch.

In short, for LASS you only need to select groups with the word "Norm" in it, and deselect everything else.


----------



## Noc

jadedsean said:


> I keep getting this warning, what am i doing wrong? I am such a noob at anything Kontakt.


As @Batrawi said, this happens when you select all groups (which is the default behavior), which includes groups that aren’t loaded. Select only the “Norm” groups (click the first, then shift-click the last), then right-click and click “Select Edit flag for selected group(s)”, which will deselect everything else.


----------



## jadedsean

Thanks guys, works great. I think i missed the right click step and did not deselect everything. Does anyone get the feeling that some samples are out of tune though? I have loaded Cellos A leg-sus and find some samples sound strange.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Sometimes you have tuning issues, please follow the steps I wrote in my original post (in the other thread). It's mentioned in the last paragraph. Maybe this helps!


----------



## dxmachina

> @dxmachina I hope I'm mistaken? I assumed this based on MSS stage screen shots. I also just got MSB and couldn't yet find any Auto-arranging functionality.... but again, I hope I'm mistaken



Sure, doing Auto Divisi arranging is still possible with MSB and MSS. Is it mainly larger ensemble arranging you're interested in, or is there something else specifically?


----------



## muziksculp

A find it a bit puzzling, given that the LASS Legatos sound much nicer after the sample start edit, I wonder why they were not programmed like this as a preset by AudioBro ?


----------



## studioj

Wow. I am shocked by how much this tweak improves the legato sound in LASS. I mean it always had decent legato, especially for an old library, but this brings it into competition with CSS imo. I hadn't opened LASS in years...this might give it some new life. I tried this on the Cello A's first and was reminded how badly out of tune this patch is... I hope they have been more particular with MSS! The full cello patch is much more consistent tuning wise and really benefits from this tweak. Thank you!

@dxmachina - I would encourage you to look at this adjustment when updating the interface in LASS next year if you haven't already planned on it. And very much looking forward to MSS! Thank you for your participation in this thread.


----------



## dxmachina

> @dxmachina - I would encourage you to look at this adjustment when updating the interface in LASS next year if you haven't already planned on it. And very much looking forward to MSS! Thank you for your participation in this thread.



Thanks. Glad to be here...

MSS (and MSB) have legato speed knobs built in to the interface. In the case of MSS you can make this exact kind of adjustment with a friendly automate-able knob (there are technically 4... one each for Legato, Portamento, Glissando, as well as a master knob which scales them all). So no need for any sample editing to get at this kind of tweak.

It's often true that starting the transition earlier will yield a more realistic sound at the expense of how agile the legato feels to play. In our experience there are some folks who have terribly allergic reactions to the feeling of delay that results when doing this... but there are equal numbers of people who prefer the quality of the transition above the playability. This is a tricky balance, and one that we've tried to fully resolve by doing two things: 1. offering a simple and smart way to tweak this setting and 2. having legato that better adapts to the speed of your playing so that a nice balance can be achieved for those who don't really want to automate at this level.

TLDR; Just turn the Speed knob up/down and you'll have this control with MSS/MSB (and all future products/updates that use our unified interface).


----------



## studioj

dxmachina said:


> TLDR; Just turn the Speed knob up/down and you'll have this control with MSS/MSB (and all future products/updates that use our unified interface).


Excellent to hear! Thanks for the details. Yeah I get that balance, and probably especially important for when it was rather new tech to not make it too unfamiliar feeling. I have become accustomed to setting negative track delays to account for slow blooming instruments when necessary at this point. But it is great to have dials... perhaps a fast setting for recording the parts in, and the slower more realistic setting when dialing in the MIDI...


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noc said:


> Unfortunately, I’m an absolute amateur with Kontakt and have no idea how to use the Wave Editor to check this. (I only managed the legato trick itself by carefully following the written and visual instructions.) It would great if someone could do it, though. It’s very possible there is a difference – maybe a smaller one – and I’m just not hearing it; my hearing unfortunately isn’t the best.


You can switch the views/editors where it says INSTRUMENT OPTIONS. There are several buttons at top of the Kontakt window (Group Editor, Mapping Editor, Wave Editor).
You have to select a group first, then a note in the mapping editor, and then you see the sample in the Wave editor.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noc said:


> This is magnificent and it works perfectly with LASS Full. Thanks for posting it.
> 
> However, I tried it on various LASS Legato Sordino patches, and despite repeating the same exact steps, the slider doesn’t seem to have any noticeable effect; the legato transitions sound unchanged to my ears whether it’s at 0% or 100%. Does anyone know if there’s something different about LS? Were its legato transitions just recorded shorter or something, rendering this trick moot?
> 
> Update: Doesn’t seem to work with LASS Full’s Legato Tremolo and Legato Trills patches either. As far as I can tell, this trick only works on Legato Sustains. Curious if anyone else hears a difference.



I looked it up. The sordino samples are cut. No chance to offset the sample start.


----------



## Batrawi

dxmachina said:


> Sure, doing Auto Divisi arranging is still possible with MSB and MSS. Is it mainly larger ensemble arranging you're interested in, or is there something else specifically


@dxmachina what I mean is Auto-arranging between different instrument types of our choice as opposed to pre-made divisi patches that only distribute the voices among the same instrument type. Say for example I want to play 4 voices distributed among a trumpet, trombone, a horn and a tuba and place them as I want in the stage instead of being limited to only 4 horns like in the example below... is there a way to do it? cause I think that kind of flexibility is what we already enjoyed in LASS stage (albeit the cumbersome process) but so far I don't see a way of doing this in the MS series. Again I hope I'm mistaken, but if that's possible then I think we'd need some dedicated video tutorials on how to work with this new setup


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Didn‘t know that Auto-Arranger across sections! 🙈😂👍


----------



## dxmachina

> Say for example I want to play 4 voices distributed among a trumpet, trombone, a horn and a tuba and place them as I want in the stage instead of being limited to only 4 horns like in the example below... is there a way to do it?



Sure, this is possible. You'd load each of those instruments (use the split versions or turn off the extra divisi if you don't want sections). Setup is then very similar to how it was done in LASS... each instrument can have its own set of play rules - which are set in the Ensemble Setup tab of the interface. In terms of stage positioning, that's also now done on each individual instrument (as opposed to the multiscript ARC) - though I'm not sure how much love there was for the ARC workflow. 

I have a running list of topics to cover with bite-sized tutorials and/or example presets from us. I can add this to the list if you'd like an example.


----------



## muziksculp

Some very thorough Video Tutorials for the upcoming Audbro *MSS* when it is released would be very helpful, and appreciated.

Video Tutorials that cover topics such as basics, advanced, tips, customization, performance, divisi, legato, ..etc.


----------



## Batrawi

dxmachina said:


> I have a running list of topics to cover with bite-sized tutorials and/or example presets from us. I can add this to the list if you'd like an example.


Yes please do. It would be a basic concept tutorial yet would definitely clear a lot of confusions for a lot of us. But if that's gonna delay MSS release, then I don't want it


----------



## Batrawi

dxmachina said:


> but there are equal numbers of people who prefer the quality of the transition above the playability.


Naaah if you excuse me Sebastian, there are much MUCH more people who prefer realism over playability. Actually every single human (including those who like playability themselves and the usual end listener who doesn't even know what playability is) only cares about realism at the end of the day which is the very reason why the VI industry exists and the very same goal towards which it keeps growing and evolving. 

Definitely playability is a +, but that's it and nothing more... so if comes at the cost of the main reason/goal we're all gathered around in the first place, then -IMHO- to hell with it.

TLDR, I'm very happy that Audiobro is now embracing the legato transition knob as an industry standard for all its products


----------



## jamwerks

Batrawi said:


> Naaah if you excuse me Sebastian, there are much MUCH more people...


He's the one who is in touch with the tens of thousands of users through support. Don't you think he would know better than you?


----------



## Batrawi

jamwerks said:


> He's the one who is in touch with the tens of thousands of users through support. Don't you think he would know better than you?


Did you really think my post is about "who knows better"?! If yes then please read it again. I was trying to bring the discussion to the bigger picture perspective and not only limit it to users' feedbacks which no matter how many thousands they are, they will remain relatively small compared to the "bigger picture". But to answer your question, yes I believe Sebastian knows better, but not because he's a developer (who may have access to thousands of users feedbacks) but also cause he's an artist/musician who looks beyond that... And that's why I'm happy that Audiobro is now considering both sides/perspectives


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Great Tip with Releasing the Legato Potential of LASS Batrawi. 

I presume for some of the larger patches - Full Range Legato or 4 way divisi, you would need to do this with EVERY Single Player in LASS - Which could take some time - Or can you select all groups on multiple Kontakt instances?


----------



## Batrawi

Paul Jelfs said:


> Great Tip with Releasing the Legato Potential of LASS Batrawi.


Thanks! I pass that credit to Pixelpoet1985 the discoverer of the trick



Paul Jelfs said:


> I presume for some of the larger patches - Full Range Legato or 4 way divisi, you would need to do this with EVERY Single Player in LASS - Which could take some time - Or can you select all groups on multiple Kontakt instances?


Not sure exactly what you mean, but the trick should apply to any legato patch in LASS (divisi or full section) in the same way and would practically take the same time to setup. You only need to do it once for each patch and "save as" the patch with a name of your choice.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Sorry for not making myself clear - For example you can use special multis that have 4 Legato of each section , spread across the keyboard. For example - 






I just wondered if there was a way of EDITTING all 18 legato patches at once, or if the only way to do it was one at a time - Thinking about it , it would have to be one at a time, because of different amount of Norm Legato samples, unless they let you select Multiple within Multiple instances :S 

Just would love to see how the full keyboard Legato patch would play with a Variable legato transition speed


----------



## Batrawi

ah, I got you. Unfortunately I'm not a kontakt expert at all, so I don't know if there is a way to edit multiple instances/patches in one go


----------



## muziksculp

@Batrawi ,

Have you tried the Legato edit on LASS (LS). Legato Sordino Library ?


----------



## dxmachina

> I just wondered if there was a way of EDITTING all 18 legato patches at once, or if the only way to do it was one at a time



If _only_ there was. 

For some things (like setting sample start) you can use Creator Tools (from NI) and write a small custom Lua script to do this. It's still one patch at a time, but you can fly through them much faster (after you have it working). Or wait a bit longer and use a "friendly" UI knob solution.


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> @Batrawi ,
> 
> Have you tried the Legato edit on LASS (LS). Legato Sordino Library ?


I don't have LS. But some already tested it here and the trick doesn't work for it (if you go a page or 2 back)


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina When you say the MSS LPG transition speed knobs are automatable – do they come with preassigned CCs (like CC83 in LASS), or do we have to assign them ourselves first? Being able to change them as needed is great, but it’s super handy and time-saving if we can just use a specific CC right out of the box.


----------



## Batrawi

dxmachina said:


> Sure, this is possible. You'd load each of those instruments (use the split versions or turn off the extra divisi if you don't want sections). Setup is then very similar to how it was done in LASS... each instrument can have its own set of play rules - which are set in the Ensemble Setup tab of the interface. In terms of stage positioning, that's also now done on each individual instrument (as opposed to the multiscript ARC) - though I'm not sure how much love there was for the ARC workflow.
> 
> I have a running list of topics to cover with bite-sized tutorials and/or example presets from us. I can add this to the list if you'd like an example.


Hi Sebastian, I revisited the MSB manual and spent some more time now on how to auto-arrange between different instruments loaded in separate patches, and I think I'm starting to slowly get the grasp of it... However the main difficulty I see in this workflow is when you try to place the instruments in correlation to each other by having to deal with multiple stages with large interface... lots of guess work and photographic memory required here! Perhaps a gridded stage would make things easier?


----------



## dxmachina

> do they come with preassigned CCs (like CC83 in LASS), or do we have to assign them ourselves first? Being able to change them as needed is great, but it’s super handy and time-saving if we can just use a specific CC right out of the box.



We have not pre-assigned these at this point, but we certainly could. It would be interesting to poll this sometime... beyond the "standard" CCs we sometimes worry that we're just making more work for people by pre-assigning too much. IE - do you fix your MIDI CC faders per library - or fix your library for your MIDI CC faders?



> lots of guess work and photographic memory required here! Perhaps a gridded stage would make things easier?



That's interesting... I think some form of readout might be a way to handle this in a future version, but _personally_ I'd still probably go by ear.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

dxmachina said:


> We have not pre-assigned these at this point, but we certainly could. It would be interesting to poll this sometime... beyond the "standard" CCs we sometimes worry that we're just making more work for people by pre-assigning too much. IE - do you fix your MIDI CC faders per library - or fix your library for your MIDI CC faders? !



I personally prefer to fix faders to the library - you have 20 Snapshots on the P1, so that covers a lot of ground/manufacturers. However, some libraries/VSTs come with NOTHING mapped, in that case I usually adjust the library to sensible CCs, and then re save the Kontakt patch with CC after its name.

Though Komplete Kontrol has made things a lot easier , which I am now using.

Ideally, Komplete Kontrol support has been included, and then its so much easier . I personally like a lot of CCs to give me control over the sound - though too many can be a problem , if it is not intergrated in Komplete Kontrol.

I am presuming that MSS will be NKS like your last 2 libraries ? I really wish LASS 2.5 but that was done before NKS was probably even a thing.

The limitations of KK is that they do not have faders - Why?!! So much more space, NI could of included them.

Though there is a way to map your third party controller to the different knobs etc in KK - trying to set it up so I can control things like "SLAM" or "Expression" or others, that are more suited to a Fader.

I think the industry should get together, like they did with Midi and come out with a proper CC Controller standardised list (Beyond what is already listed) and then all developers can use the same CCs for mic positions, legato speed, Vibrato (which is usually CC2 or 3 depending on library!)

Thats my dream, but I don't think it would work in practice in reality - Probably more than 128 types of CC that already out there.

So hopefully MSS is NKS, and has a decent amount of CCs, there are set to appropriate settings - Not much to ask lol ! 

Need a Komplete Kontrol Fader version, with a small screen and pre mapped 60-100mm faders 

Sell them for £200-250 and , providing they are decent, they would make a killing


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Another option - that some Embertone and Chris Hein libraries do - Is include a Folder with Patches with Premapped CC, and another folder with only say CC1, cc11 mapped etc

Not sure if that would increase your workload though.

And because I talked so much in my last reply, will ask again here - Its going to NKS right ? Because things will be mapped in that anyway will they - possibly not by CC.

And whoops - what is the command for finish quote . My last post just looks like a copied reply.


----------



## I like music

Paul Jelfs said:


> My last post just looks like a copied reply.




Quite a handy feature on this forum is that if you select text from someone else's post, it gives you a 'Reply' option which essentially puts the selected text in quotes. You can do this for multiple posts!


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Thank you . That is really useful to know and has fixed my issue !


----------



## Noc

dxmachina said:


> IE - do you fix your MIDI CC faders per library - or fix your library for your MIDI CC faders?



Speaking purely for myself, my preference is to have CCs preassigned in the patches whilst giving users the ability to easily change them. So the “transition speed” knob could be assigned to, say, CC83, but the user could simply reassign it with a right-click. (Though you said there’d be several knobs, so maybe they could each have a preassigned CC?) That way users can hit the ground running without having to edit & resave every patch, whilst those with custom CC setups can just right-click → “Learn MIDI” and create custom assignments in a jiffy.

Of course, this is all a minor detail, but across multiple patches and libraries, my experience is preassigned CCs just save time. At least for me, anyway.

Finally, just because no-one’s asked you in the last half-hour – is MSS still on track to drop before the end of the month?


----------



## GingerMaestro

Just out of interest where was LASS and indeed other Audiobro libraries recorded ? LA or maybe Europe ? Do folks have any particular feelings on the sound of string libraries from around the world?


----------



## Mr Greg G

I’d say LA but they also could have been recorded in Tijuana with 18y old strings players and just put LA on the box. I wouldn’t care much, the sound and playability are what’s more important for me in a String Library. And LASS is king in this regard and really hope this new lib will surpass it. Otherwise I‘m totally ok just using good ol’ LASS since I can mockup almost anything I want and better than with competitors libraries. Props to audiobro.


----------



## GingerMaestro

GingerMaestro said:


> Just out of interest where was LASS and indeed other Audiobro libraries recorded ? LA or maybe Europe ? Do folks have any particular feelings on the sound of string libraries from around the world?


Oh...silly me..of course LA means Los Angeles....whoops...


----------



## Batrawi

GingerMaestro said:


> Oh...silly me..of course LA means Los Angeles....whoops...


Yes. *LA*SS was recorded in Los Angeles and *M*SS was recorded in Modern.


----------



## LHall

Batrawi said:


> Yes. *LA*SS was recorded in Los Angeles and *M*SS was recorded in Modern.


Modern has such a great orchestra and hall!!!


----------



## Noeticus

No, no, no... It was recorded in the town "Contemporary".


----------



## Batrawi

Noeticus said:


> No, no, no... It was recorded in the town "Contemporary".


Contemporary my *A*udiobro *S*coring *S*trings


----------



## dts_marin

More like temporary scoring strings. All libraries will be replaced with some fancier in the future so..


----------



## artomatic

Hmmm... No audio demo(s) yet. 
With the estimated release by the end of of this year, I'm hoping it's any day now.


----------



## dxmachina

> Just out of interest where was LASS and indeed other Audiobro libraries recorded ?



Contracts keep me from answering. Make of that what you will. 

We should have an update on release schedule later this week.


----------



## Toecutter

dxmachina said:


> Contracts keep me from answering. Make of that what you will.
> 
> We should have an update on release schedule later this week.


Demos too? 🙏


----------



## dxmachina

> Its going to NKS right ? Because things will be mapped in that anyway will they - possibly not by CC.



Yes, robust NKS support is included.



> Demos too?



I assure you I am (at least) twice as anxious to have demos/videos available.


----------



## olvra

GingerMaestro said:


> Just out of interest where was LASS [....] recorded ?



budapest


----------



## davidanthony

dxmachina said:


> Contracts keep me from answering. Make of that what you will.



An NDA to record strings? How juicy. Are we talking a place where someone else has exclusivity rights to the name or Area 51?


----------



## Batrawi

davidanthony said:


> An NDA to record strings?



...pssssstt....need some nice place to record strings?





...but seriously though, does it matter if it just sounds good? especially if it's designed to adapt to almost any mix of your liking? (which in that case would actually make sense if treated as on of the developer's "secret recipies")

anyhow, I'm dying for some demos now. I hope they should come out any time soon in the coming few days if everything's going as planned


----------



## Batrawi

zolhof said:


> The Intuition patches are much smoother and playable out of the box. The only thing I miss is the repetition key,


Hey Zolhof, you can use this script which sustains the note/trigers a repetition if you press same note as long as the sustain pedal is pressed down (works pretty much like CSS note sustain/rebow)... I tried it with the intuition patches and it works seamlessly...









The Blake Robinson Synthetic Orchestra - Tutorials » Spitfire Audio » The sustain pedal


Synthetic Orchestra. Now up to 736 pieces of music. That's 26 hours, 11 minutes of listening!




www.syntheticorchestra.com


----------



## ChristianM

dxmachina said:


> Contracts keep me from answering. Make of that what you will.
> 
> We should have an update on release schedule later this week.


LA =? Live Audiobro ?


----------



## GingerMaestro

Batrawi said:


> ...pssssstt....need some nice place to record strings?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...but seriously though, does it matter if it just sounds good? especially if it's designed to adapt to almost any mix of your liking? (which in that case would actually make sense if treated as on of the developer's "secret recipies")
> 
> anyhow, I'm dying for some demos now. I hope they should come out any time soon in the coming few days if everything's going as planned


No, so long as it sounds good, no it doesn’t matter. LA and London musicians are great, but it seems as European film orchestras are looked down upon a bit. There is probably a smaller pool of players who do this kind of work in Budapest, Bulgaria etc...but I‘m sure the top players there can hold their own with their counterparts in LA and London. Eastern Europe has a very rich musical history, especially string players....just interesting...


----------



## Hans-Peter

GingerMaestro said:


> [...] but it seems as European film orchestras are looked down upon a bit.



Which shows just how little people are in the know. From my own experience, strings and woodwinds in the LA area are really underdeveloped in comparison to the standards that I'm used to, here in Europe (that is Austria, Denmark, UK). Yes, there are exceptions - and those get to play at the top gigs (and many times consist of European players as well), but my general observations align with other conductors' opinions. Mind you, these observations mainly apply to classical (and classical contemporary) repertoire. It might not be as epic, but even more demanding ... just my 2 cents (or Groschen?) .


----------



## GingerMaestro

Hans-Peter said:


> Which shows just how little people are in the know. From my own experience, strings and woodwinds in the LA area are really underdeveloped in comparison to the standards that I'm used to, here in Europe (that is Austria, Denmark, UK). Yes, there are exceptions - and those get to play at the top gigs (and many times consist of European players as well), but my general observations align with other conductors' opinions. Mind you, these observations mainly apply to classical (and classical contemporary) repertoire. It might not be as epic, but even more demanding ... just my 2 cents (or Groschen?) .


P.S. I should have included Asia in this as well, the professional musicians ive worked with in South Korea and Japan have been exceptional, again especially string players and pianists.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

I think there needs to be a distinction between Western Europe and Eastern Europe, when it comes to the quality of Orchestras. 

Many use Eastern European, ex Soviet states , as the player prices are a lot cheaper, though recently , they have began to creep up as the standards improve. 

This is just obviously just a generalisation, and I mean no offence to anyone from any of these areas i refer to at all; 

You can obviously get exceptional musicians from some of the Eastern Europe + everywhere else, and mediocre ones from West Europe, US or where ever really. 

The fact is a lot of it is driven by price.


----------



## Batrawi

In my experience, I find that exceptional/top skilled musicians(especially soloists) can often be problematic when their characterful style is too much imposed within the samples and thereby prevail over and limit the diversity I may want to achieve with my own style/compositions... Certainly good, but only for certain scenarios imo, otherwise I think that musicians with just the right amount of talent to play academically without too much or with neutral character may be more ideal for sample libraries that are aimed to cover a wider musical ground as much as possible.


----------



## VivianaSings

It's hit or miss. I have the soundtrack to Total Recall and in the booklet there's a great story about how Jerry Goldsmith thought he was getting the LSO to do the soundtrack but Carolco cheaped out and sent him to Germany instead to use a German orchestra. He said they were a mess and couldn't get through any of his writing and that after 3 days they still didn't have a single good take of the title theme and had resorted to recording in sections to try to splice together a good take.

Finally the director, Paul Verhoeven, was pretty much told by Goldsmith that there would be no soundtrack at this rate so Verhoeven actually ponied up from his own pocket to pay for the LSO. Goldsmith said that in the first day of recording sessions, the LSO got through 45 minutes of his score.

It's always safer to just go with the choice in the end you know can deliver when it matters than to take a chance on a cheaper option. You might get lucky, or you might end up like Goldsmith and spend 3 days trying to get a single take of your title theme.

A lot of orchestras sound great when playing standard classical orchestral repertoire. They should as most members of those orchestras have been playing those pieces for years over and over in various orchestras. It's when you throw something in front of them they're not familiar with or complex like Jerry Goldsmith's writing, that the rubber hits the road and you figure out what's up.


----------



## davidanthony

Batrawi said:


> ...but seriously though, does it matter if it just sounds good? especially if it's designed to adapt to almost any mix of your liking? (which in that case would actually make sense if treated as on of the developer's "secret recipies")



I don't think it matters, generally. In the case of LASS, wouldn't care if they were Pasadena Scoring Strings or whatever, proof is in the pudding.

But getting sounds out of speakers is both an art and a business and I'm always interested in learning more about both!


----------



## Batrawi

davidanthony said:


> But getting sounds out of speakers is both an art and a business and I'm always interested in learning more about both!


valid point


----------



## ShikiSuen

dxmachina said:


> Ugh... I'm sorry about this. It's not really just torrents or piracy that have made it difficult for us, but I know it might feel like we're accusing a country as a whole. That is not at all our intention and again I apologize for however it's coming off. If you're interested in our libraries, _please_ shoot us an email. I know that's an extra step to go through (and that's also not ideal) but it's how we can try to help at the moment.



I'm helping you translate this part of reply to Chinese ('cause I am seeing awfully auto-translated version on Audiobar and I don't feel good with it).

Here's my translation. I know your courtesy, and I made sure the meanings you want to express are translated intact.


> 「呃……这事儿还真对不住。并不是种子盗版之类的问题让我们觉得难以（在中国大陆市场销售），但我晓得这让大家觉得我们在非难一整个国家。这并非我们一开始的想法，却造成这样的事态发展，真的很抱歉。如果你们对我们的音色库感兴趣的话，欢迎电邮垂询。我知道这一个步显然是多出来的（也绝非上策），但这是我们目前能帮助你们（购买音源）的方式。」


----------



## chrisr

ShikiSuen said:


> I'm helping you translate this part of reply to Chinese ('cause I am seeing awfully auto-translated version on Audiobar and I don't feel good with it).
> 
> Here's my translation. I know your courtesy, and I made sure the meanings you want to express are translated intact.



What a kind thing to do @ShikiSuen. Kudos to you!


----------



## ShikiSuen

chrisr said:


> What a kind thing to do @ShikiSuen. Kudos to you!


Nevermind. That bad google translation (or maybe anything else) just made me feel sick.

I hope that one day Audiobro can cooperate with Wallander Instruments.
I am a humble user of the combination of Dorico + NotePerformer.
If Audiobro reinforced their power to Wallander Instruments for improving the string timbre of NotePerformer, then I guess that a midi mockup won't have to be done in DAW anymore.


----------



## artinro

Looks like it's bumped to end of January with demos and vids then.


----------



## muziksculp

artinro said:


> Looks like it's bumped to end of January with demos and vids then.



Yes, I see they posted this update on their site. Not what I was hoping for.

Plus.. End of January, why don't they just pick a day, and stick to it.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

End of January competes with HOPUS release. Pity, I hoped there were some MSS teaser demo tracks. :(


----------



## maestro2be

I think this is where things get fuzzy when trying to give people "estimates" or release dates. It always causes disappointment on both ends.

I feel like Andrew came out of the darkness to give us something to be excited about, perhaps mostly because we pushed him nonstop until he did, and maybe he ran into a snag that he wants resolved before he releases it. If I am not mistaken, I believe he's a musician as well and has to balance that part of his life as well.

I hope that we will be able to maintain a high level of professionalism and appreciation for him and Sebastian coming here and answering pretty much anything we ask, with exception to price(s).

I am happy to wait until January if that's the new release date. I am no less excited than I was before and this news doesn't put a damper on me since I have been waiting years for this and at least at this point, I know it's about to come true. Some of the excitement for me is that most of the sections I love the most sound to be around 6-8 players in size and this one claims to be just that in the divisi sections. I just hope it can do beautiful lush/intimate music as I already have 15 libraries that beat the shit out of my speakers and or sound to small where I have to layer to attempt to get where I want to be.


----------



## Batrawi




----------



## Wunderhorn

It would help if we had any guidelines on the pricing.


----------



## muziksculp

Nothing to prevent us from waiting to end of Feb. 2021


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I see they posted this update on their site. Not what I was hoping for.
> 
> Plus.. End of January, why don't they just pick a day, and stick to it.


This is way more information than Audiobro normally even give in advance. I'm grateful for it 🤷


----------



## muziksculp

Wunderhorn said:


> It would help if we had any guidelines on the pricing.



They probably don't want to shock us this early.


----------



## artinro

Casiquire said:


> This is way more information than Audiobro normally even give in advance. I'm grateful for it 🤷



Absolutely. As I’d expect/hope with any developer, take all the time needed to make the product as good as it can be before release. Polish is always appreciated. I just happened upon the date update so I figured I’d post the info.


----------



## ansthenia

Bummer, but they're doing what they believe is best for their product, can only respect that.


----------



## jamwerks

Genesis came out with something like 6 or 8 in-depth videos on day one!


----------



## Noeticus

I would like them to at least release a short Teaser Video before the end of this year.


----------



## chapbot

"Polish is always appreciated" - true, but years of polish is a bit much. Please, please do not hold your breath for a January release with this company 🤣


----------



## ChristianM

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> End of January competes with HOPUS release. Pity, I hoped there were some MSS teaser demo tracks. :(


No, because same thing for Hopus (probably) !


----------



## Noc

Personally, considering a new Audiobro strings release wasn’t on my radar at all until a few short weeks ago, I don’t mind if they delay it just a bit, especially if it means we get extra features or polish. At least it’s not like in the games industry where delays tend to be along the lines of months to years, rather than just a few weeks. 

@dxmachina The release delay announcement states you plan to “add[] a few more features” to MSS. Can you tell us anything about what these extra features are, and how they differ from what was previously announced on the MSS page? Are they additional presets (tasto/pont./sord. simulation for all articulations ), or articulation/patch types? Any info would be appreciated!

Also, a new question: How pronounced is the maximum attack setting for the attack control slider? Is it emphasized/sharp enough to replicate marcato? I noticed there’s no “marcato” listed in the articulations chart, so that’d be a good way to do it, IMHO.


----------



## John Longley

I understand delays, but this reads more like a marketing delay than a technical one. It would be wise to disclose upgrade/crossgrade pricing on the original timeline and even offer a pre-sale. I don’t understand waiting on some basic videos either, but it’s their product to launch how they want. We’ll see how it turns out now.


----------



## jamwerks

Then there's always the time that NI takes for incoding. That's probably next-to-impossible around x-mas time.


----------



## william81723

I bet that MSS will be released the end of this year.
I don't want to miss the best price for MSS so I bought it four days ago.
Though it is now delayed,I still trust that Audiobro will make the best generational product.


----------



## Kevinside

Where did you bought MSS...
On the Audio Bro Website MMS is not avaible for purchase...
So how could you buy it four days ago?


----------



## John Longley

Kevinside said:


> Where did you bought MSS...
> On the Audio Bro Website MMS is not avaible for purchase...
> So how could you buy it four days ago?


I think he means he bought LASS for the promised crossgrade price?


----------



## Batrawi

What is MMS? Who bought MSS? I think he bought MSB.


----------



## John Longley

Batrawi said:


> What is MMS? Who bought MSS? I think he bought MSB.


Modern Missing Strings, now fitting.


----------



## zimm83

End of january.....apple m1 for me....


----------



## Kevinside

Lass... This was always on sale and i cannot buy it, cause this library sounds awful...
I dont understand, why Lass was so hyped by so many out there...
I think, the old VSL silent stage libraries are better, than LASs..
So why are you all into Lass. What are the benefits with this ultra dry library.... And why is the legato so awful... I don´t understand the hype for Audio Bro... Look at the Symphony Strings by NI... They are unusable and wow awful... So whats so great with Audio Bro?


PS: Apple M1...please wait for the next generation coming with the mbpro16, Imac and more...
I tested my friends arm Mac and for audio and espically sample libraries... Its not worth it, cause of many reasons...


----------



## constaneum

Kevinside said:


> Lass... This was always on sale and i cannot buy it, cause this library sounds awful...
> I dont understand, why Lass was so hyped by so many out there...
> I think, the old VSL silent stage libraries are better, than LASs..
> So why are you all into Lass. What are the benefits with this ultra dry library.... And why is the legato so awful... I don´t understand the hype for Audio Bro... Look at the Symphony Strings by NI... They are unusable and wow awful... So whats so great with Audio Bro?
> 
> 
> PS: Apple M1...please wait for the next generation coming with the mbpro16, Imac and more...
> I tested my friends arm Mac and for audio and espically sample libraries... Its not worth it, cause of many reasons...



LASS isn't too bad, even though it may sound nasal. Its original sound is raw and nasal and requires quite some effort to make it sounds right. The reason i was caught into buying LASS was the beautiful official music demos. Who knows when bought, ended up using, the out of box sounds different from the official music demos which seems more processed and EQ to sound good. Probably i sux in those and was expecting something useable straight out of the box. I've ended up hardly using LASS partly coz of its raw nasal sound and its tedious works in setting up the ARC. I wish Audiobro will have more demos featuring MSS from out of the box sound so that we'll know what to get from the product without any EQ or 3rd party reverb applied. i still use LASS' Spiccato and staccato though as they are still outstanding.


----------



## Casiquire

Kevinside said:


> Lass... This was always on sale and i cannot buy it, cause this library sounds awful...
> I dont understand, why Lass was so hyped by so many out there...
> I think, the old VSL silent stage libraries are better, than LASs..
> So why are you all into Lass. What are the benefits with this ultra dry library.... And why is the legato so awful... I don´t understand the hype for Audio Bro... Look at the Symphony Strings by NI... They are unusable and wow awful... So whats so great with Audio Bro?
> 
> 
> PS: Apple M1...please wait for the next generation coming with the mbpro16, Imac and more...
> I tested my friends arm Mac and for audio and espically sample libraries... Its not worth it, cause of many reasons...


For one thing, it's not ultra dry. I find it more wet than the silent stage. And for another, simple personal preference. You might not like it, but the samples are full of life and movement, sound organic, and are incredibly consistent from one group to the next across twelve distinct groups of players plus first chairs. Last thing, it's probably the most flexible and capable library i own. The sound can be shaped into so many styles, rooms, and colors, and it can handle just about anything you throw at it. 

The NI library is basically irrelevant in a conversation about LASS, but if you're trying to say Audiobro isn't capable of making good libraries, Genesis is probably the most highly regarded children's choir out there.

It's ok if it doesn't appeal to you. We all have our own opinions 😊


----------



## muziksculp

Talking about LASS vs MSS.

Well, I'm hoping MSS is HUGE step forward from LASS, especially in the Timbre dept. , that's the #1 criteria for me when it comes to orchestral instruments, especially Strings. Without a beautiful, and rich timbre, and I mean out of the box, not after hours of DSP-Surgery, a Strings library is useless to me if it doesn't have a great timbre (Out of the Box).

#2 Criteria for me is ease of use, and playability. Hopefully MSS is a breeze to use, when compared with the convoluted setup process for LASS, and is a joy to play.

I'm very excited to see what MSS will offer, and will surely buy it if it sounds wonderful, and is easy to use.

The decision to delay its release to the end of Jan. next year is not what I was hoping for, but I guess they will use this extra time to further improve it before releasing it. Which is a good thing.


----------



## constaneum

of coz it's unfair to compare LASS with the current new releases. LASS serves its purpose back then when it was a fantasic release when no other competitors were able to do it. It was at its glorious days back then. That gave them enough justice to be crowned the strings master back in the glorious days.


----------



## Kent

LASS has both great timbre and great legato 🤷🏻‍♂️ The difference is that _you_ are in control of _it _and not the other way around.


----------



## Jish

constaneum said:


> It was at its glorious days back then. That gave them enough justice to be crowned the strings master back in the glorious days.



Ha, I like this reminds me of the ending of _Dragonheart_ or something: "As I remember now, those were golden years for sample string libraries, warmed by a unworldly light". Cue that sublime 90's theme.

Agreed with previous sentiments saying that articulations and utility of use is top of the list for MSS, but sound/general timbre can't be far behind. I never was able to make original LASS come to life like some others, and I've always kind of noted over the years the (relative) few that really impressed me with the end result of a mockup. But, to those that like it, they _really_ like it which I always respected.

We're a decade out now from the good old 'glorious' years of LASS and Hollywood Strings. Interesting also to note that these years where the strings seem to experience a noticeable 'jump' seem to almost occur in groupings (01'-02 was _Garritan_ Strings/Sonic Implants). With any luck late 2020/2021 will be similar with the combination of MSS/Vista/Nashville/Sonivox/Infinite.

Or, in hindsight to the releases of 2010 up to say, Cinematic Studio Strings, it could also just as likely be a somewhat cruel exercise in the marriage of incrementalism and marketing, where everything sounds a bit different, but no meaningful 'sea change' event takes hold. For me, the four string libraries that really were events in themselves, more or less, were Hollywood/LASS/SCS/Cinematic Studio - no specific order. In the end, one of the only firm opinions I actually have is that at this point I would like to see more dynamic layers (5-7 preferable) at the expense of more mics. I think this was (somewhat) echoed in a recent poll. So that's something kinda concrete to point towards. As for everything else? I just guess that's where the magic either will happen, or perhaps even, won't.


----------



## dxmachina

Delays are frustrating. Sometimes the paperwork takes longer than you hoped (that's all that happened here). SO that's the bad news. The silver lining is that when we realized we'd have to push into January we also saw the opportunity to get everything planned for 1.1 properly tested and into the initial release. Most of this stuff was done, but just needed a few more weeks of proper testing before releasing, so the timing worked out. 

We'll announce pricing for the library before release so anyone planning purchases in January will have enough time to make up their minds. We will also be releasing video/audio content leading up to release with the goal of making sure you really know what MSS will offer you in terms of the sound, playability, scope, unique features, and ease of use. To that end, my hope is that as we release this content I will be able to directly address questions/feedback and take requests for followups to demonstrate. 



> @dxmachina The release delay announcement states you plan to “add[] a few more features” to MSS. Can you tell us anything about what these extra features are, and how they differ from what was previously announced on the MSS page?



Many of them (a couple I'm personally super excited about) are things I've had to "no comment" or "hold that thought" previously in this thread. A couple others I can directly mention: we'll have a full ensemble instrument (which can be split into 2 half-size divisi ensembles as well). We've also added a ton of preset snapshots to allow folks to quickly get at different mixes that are optimized for different styles of writing (with just a single click). A lot of convenience features really. 



> How pronounced is the maximum attack setting for the attack control slider? Is it emphasized/sharp enough to replicate marcato?



Short answer is that it's definitely what you want for marcato sustains. Slightly longer answer is that it makes sense for each dynamic (so accented _ppp _sounds appropriate and not like a sfzp, but accented _ff_ is as sharp as you'd think). Same is true of the feathered attacks... they make sense for each dynamic.


----------



## Noc

dxmachina said:


> Many of them (a couple I'm personally super excited about) are things I've had to "no comment" or "hold that thought" previously in this thread.


Ah man, there’ve been so many questions like that it’s impossible to know what you’re referring to. 

So if I understand your post right, the delay basically means you’ll be skipping v1.0 and jumping straight to releasing what was planned to be v1.1?

Either way, super excite.


----------



## Pablocrespo

I dont know if It’s ok to talk about other products here but when I asked about going back and forth between legato notes it was something similar of the new berlin strings pattern legato, the ability to have repeating alternating legato notes as in C-E-C-E etc. (but not in a pattern machine, just playing them and not sounding machine gun like). 

I wonder ifMSS will handle these kind of lines with it’s legato.


----------



## Living Fossil

kmaster said:


> LASS has both great timbre and great legato 🤷🏻‍♂️ The difference is that _you_ are in control of _it _and not the other way around.



Exactly.
I bought LASS almost ten years ago and allthough i bought lots of other string libraries before and after i still use it a lot. I guess if i would calculate their RoI factor (i.e. the money i paid for the library compared to the money i earned while using this library) it would be almost on top (after the VSL cube).

And i have to say that i struggle to take comments about its "dry sound" or its timbre seriously.
First, LASS came/comes with some a set of great impulse responses (for even bigger flexibility split into early reflections and tails). Sure, it needs a couple of minutes to explore them, but: in order to get results, investment of energy is always necessary.
Second, there are some fantastic tools for spatialisation availabe (like Precedence etc.)
Third, wet libraries have their own huge problems (*all* of them). Just listen closely to the reverberation while legato transitions etc. Honestly, i'm struggling to understand why so many people can't hear those problems. Personally i can't unhear those chorussing artefacts and sudden _collapsing of space_ (during some transitions) problems in most wet libraries.
Finally, with regards to the timbre: working with sampled instruments usually involves the use of equalizers and – in my case even much more often – dynamic EQs. That's a system immanent thing. The huge (and insolvable) problems occur usually only when lots of artificial saturation were applied to a library, but that's not the case here.


----------



## CSNV

Living Fossil said:


> sudden _collapsing of space_



I would not have said this better, I think it's SO obvious.


----------



## Noc

Living Fossil said:


> And i have to say that i struggle to take comments about its "dry sound" or its timbre seriously.
> First, LASS came/comes with some a set of great impulse responses (for even bigger flexibility split into early reflections and tails). Sure, it needs a couple of minutes to explore them, but: in order to get results, investment of energy is always necessary.


This, so hard. I agree the _default_ dry tone can be harsh/overly woody depending on use (though that also makes it excellent for certain applications), but a single click (since the 2.5 update) turns on the Colors on any patch and then the strings can sound as lush and ambient as any “wet” library out there. Switch on the LoTR or Batman colors and tell me that doesn’t sound every bit as grand and sweeping as Hollywood Strings or anything else.


----------



## ned3000

I'm hoping the new UI makes it easier to use all of the features than LASS did. I'm a fan of that library, but the way the multis and instruments worked together with all the different layers of functionality was insanely convoluted.


----------



## muziksculp

*MSS* would be an instant buy for me If it has :

#1. Great Timbre out of the box.
#2. Easy, Divisi-Setup, no convoluted, and time consuming steps/procedure to set this up.
#3. All the articulations are very playable, with great sounding results, not much midi tweaking needed.

Also looking forward to see lots of improvements in LASS 3 , which will run on their new Kontakt Engine. Although it might not be out for some while, since MSS will be released end of Jan. 2021, LASS 3 possible a few months later. 

I have LASS 2.5, but I don't use it, although I'm beginning to experiment with using it without the ARC Divisi-System, just like any other Strings library.


----------



## muk

Living Fossil said:


> First, LASS came/comes with some a set of great impulse responses (for even bigger flexibility split into early reflections and tails). Sure, it needs a couple of minutes to explore them, but: in order to get results, investment of energy is always necessary.



Personally, I struggle to take comments seriously telling you how much you can change the timbre of a recording. Whenever I bought a library that I didn't like the sound out of the box, I have been burned. Telling yourself you can change it is fooling yourself. You can only change it to a small degree. So if you don't love it, don't buy it. Mind you I am not saying LASS sounds bad or anything. I'm saying if you don't like the sound of LASS, don't buy it.



Living Fossil said:


> Second, there are some fantastic tools for spatialisation availabe (like Precedence etc.)
> Third, wet libraries have their own huge problems (*all* of them).





Living Fossil said:


> Personally i can't unhear those chorussing artefacts and sudden _collapsing of space_ (during some transitions) problems in most wet libraries.



Well that sword cuts both ways. I can't unhear the lack of spatial information, only inadequately covered by artificial reverb, and the sound of being close miced in many of the dry libraries. It's not like only wet libraries have their problems. Dry libraries have their own set of problems too.

I have used dry libaries for a long time, but recently transitioned more to libraries with a natural ambience, as the sound of the recordings has become more important for me. Again, I am not saying LASS sounds bad. But I do understand the people who have different personal preferences for sound.


----------



## mcalis

muk said:


> Whenever I bought a library that I didn't like the sound out of the box, I have been burned. Telling yourself you can change it is fooling yourself.


To each their own, and I can certainly understand the sentiment, but I don't quite agree with the last part. The Simple Sam Signature Grand is my main Piano VST at the moment and the presets they included sound _wildly_ different, yet it is still the same set of samples. When you peek under the hood you see it's just a bunch of carefully selected FX. Now I don't personally have the skill (or desire) to try to change very dry libraries into something very different sounding, but it certainly can be done.


----------



## muk

Yes, maybe I overstated my point. You can make changes to the timbre if you are a good mixing engineer. But there are limits to this. In my experience hoping for it has led to wasted money for me, so personally I am cautious. In the end, isn't it always better to record something the way you want it to sound? Instead of trying to change it afterwards to something else?


----------



## wilifordmusic

Pablocrespo said:


> I dont know if It’s ok to talk about other products here but when I asked about going back and forth between legato notes it was something similar of the new berlin strings pattern legato, the ability to have repeating alternating legato notes as in C-E-C-E etc. (but not in a pattern machine, just playing them and not sounding machine gun like).
> 
> I wonder ifMSS will handle these kind of lines with it’s legato.


It looks like the "Smart Automatic Ostinato" is the feature you want.
I think it would just be playing a "c and e" together in a single voice to get the effect you desire. At least that's the way the product page reads.
What is not entirely clear is whether you can change the interval simply by changing your 2 voices, or if it is going to require key-switching or some other cc.


----------



## Pablocrespo

wilifordmusic said:


> It looks like the "Smart Automatic Ostinato" is the feature you want.
> I think it would just be playing a "c and e" together in a single voice to get the effect you desire. At least that's the way the product page reads.
> What is not entirely clear is whether you can change the interval simply by changing your 2 voices, or if it is going to require key-switching or some other cc.


That looks very good and Andrew has explained how it works in the audiobro forum, but I want to be able to play those notes, in any rhythm and be able to sound convincing, LASS is almost there with the AMG Legato, so I figured that MSS would be even better. 

One good example is what the violas are doing from the bar 5 on:


----------



## maestro2be

I really hope this library will be able to successfully pull of what I just heard above in that demo and ostinato patterns that are made with a more legato connected sound instead of a bouncing spicatto or stacatto sound. I want to be able to play nice fast ostinato patterns that might be double note or higher, while maintaining a bow staying on the string connected type sound versus hearing a jarring attack sound like a spicatto.

Any library I own today seems to just completely cancel out the additional notes if I try to use any form of legato or repetition legato as it can't keep up with a good tempo ostinato pattern without changing to a spicatto or stacatto.

Here's basically 2 quick ideas I found in google. I would want a pattern like what you see here played without a bounce, but a bowed smooth back and forth sound that can handle a fast tempo.


----------



## rmak

Oh no MSs coming out in jan? Was hoping i could decide between this or discounted bbcso core as a first string lib =(. I guess I ll wait until jan...


----------



## Casiquire

Pablocrespo said:


> That looks very good and Andrew has explained how it works in the audiobro forum, but I want to be able to play those notes, in any rhythm and be able to sound convincing, LASS is almost there with the AMG Legato, so I figured that MSS would be even better.
> 
> One good example is what the violas are doing from the bar 5 on:



I dislike the AMG legato in LASS. Just alternate legato types with the slider up, seems to do better. AMG and using neighbor notes always comes with tonal shifts in any library I've ever tried


----------



## ChristianM

Kevinside said:


> Lass... This was always on sale and i cannot buy it, cause this library sounds awful...
> I dont understand, why Lass was so hyped by so many out there...
> I think, the old VSL silent stage libraries are better, than LASs..
> So why are you all into Lass. What are the benefits with this ultra dry library.... And why is the legato so awful... I don´t understand the hype for Audio Bro... Look at the Symphony Strings by NI... They are unusable and wow awful... So whats so great with Audio Bro?


Because LASS is beautiful


----------



## Noeticus

LASS is so impressive that I am here on this thread waiting for more...


----------



## dxmachina

> So if I understand your post right, the delay basically means you’ll be skipping v1.0 and jumping straight to releasing what was planned to be v1.1?



Yes, that's correct.



> Oh no MSs coming out in jan?


We're launching towards the end of January. Pricing and videos/audio will be released in advance.



> I think it would just be playing a "c and e" together in a single voice to get the effect you desire.



In regards to Ostinatos, yes that is one way to realize the line. The smart ostinato tool will likely yield very lovely results as it uses real longer fluid recordings in multiple dynamics (for each divisi). And then on top of that we have round robins of the phrases. If you look at it in terms of individual intervals it would be like having 8 RR of each interval in each direction for each dynamic. We've taken pains to make this tool feel playable though and not just like playing back loops. While you can definitely do things completely manually with automation and keyswitches you can also just play the keyboard (which is a lot more fun). 

There are at least 2 other ways you can handle ostinatos though. If we don't get this topic covered well enough for you in a video remind me and I'll make sure it gets demoed. It would actually be an interesting thing to compare the results of a few simple techniques on the same line.


----------



## Wunderhorn

dxmachina said:


> There are at least 2 other ways you can handle ostinatos though. If we don't get this topic covered well enough for you in a video remind me and I'll make sure it gets demoed. It would actually be an interesting thing to compare the results of a few simple techniques on the same line.



I wouldn't mind hearing about the other two methods now...

And yes, I am interested in all the general in-depth information regarding ostinati as well.

Any effort towards supporting ostinati will make this string library look quite sexy.


----------



## Batrawi

*It is now released*

..is what would have been posted by now hadn't it been delayed


----------



## rmak

Batrawi said:


> *It is now released*
> 
> ..is what would have been posted by now hadn't it been delayed


That is mean


----------



## ansthenia

Sorry if you've already answered this, but besides owning LASS Full, does owning LASS Legato Sordino also contribute to the discount off of MSS?


----------



## muziksculp

ansthenia said:


> Sorry if you've already answered this, but besides owning LASS Full, does owning LASS Legato Sordino also contribute to the discount off of MSS?



Good question. I hope it does.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I dislike the AMG legato in LASS



What is AMG legato ?


----------



## Kent

muziksculp said:


> What is AMG legato ?


The smoothness of drive you can get in a top-of-the-line Mercedes


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> What is AMG legato ?


Anti Machine Gun... but as Casiquire mentioned before it's not that efficient


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> Anti Machine Gun... but as Casiquire mentioned before it's not that efficient



OK thanks for the feedback. 

LOL ... That sounds like an armored car feature.


----------



## gussunkri

muziksculp said:


> Good question. I hope it does.


+1, but for First chairs.


----------



## muziksculp

gussunkri said:


> +1, but for First chairs.



Not sure what that means. Isnt' First chairs part of LASS ?


----------



## gussunkri

muziksculp said:


> Not sure what that means. Isnt' First chairs part of LASS ?


I mean, if one only own the lass first chairs, like I do, does one still get a reduced price on MSS.


----------



## muziksculp

gussunkri said:


> I mean, if one only own the lass first chairs, like I do, does one still get a reduced price on MSS.



Oh.. I see. Thanks for clarifying this, I didn't know they sold the LASS First Chairs as a separate library.


----------



## Batrawi

As the website states for now, there is only a loyalty upgrade for the FULL LASS owners. I think it was mentioned somewhere that they may considering loyalty pricing for owners of other libraries (still not confirmed though) but to my understanding it would apply to major libraries (such as MSB, Full LASS, Genesis maybe) I can totally be wrong but that seems to be the direction (if they ever applied loyalty to other libraries)


----------



## NoamL

That's a great improvement @Batrawi .

Kind of halfway between @Living Fossil and @muk - the sound of LASS can be spatialized however you want... but there's no covering up the 1-signal approach in this library. I don't know if it's actually just a tree or a baked-in mix of microphones, but it sounds 1D compared to e.g. Mural where you can cover the whole string section from the outriggers, close ribbons, tree and ambient. Even the "Main" (Tree+Outrigger) signal in HWS sounds more dimensional.


----------



## Vik

So – owning LASS Legato Sordino wouldn't qualify for a reduced price on MSS 'Expanded Legato', which contains the MSS Sordino samples?


----------



## Raphioli

Batrawi said:


> *It is now released*
> 
> ..is what would have been posted by now hadn't it been delayed



Delays do happen, so I understand. 
But they could have at least released something, like the price.

They initially planned to release during the end of this month, so I'm sure they already have a price set in stone.


----------



## rmak

Knowing the price would be nice 🙂


----------



## Paul Jelfs

my only worry is no demo - If its amazing, you would want to shout about it and let people hear.

Maybe they are worried about the reactions to the MSB demos on here and other places, but if thats the case , even more reason to pay a top Audiobro user/ composer to do a brilliant demo and walkthrough .

I just do not understand why no demos, when it is practically finished ? Thoughts ?

Alex released 2 mp3s for CSW and that made the hype train go crazy, up until that point these two threads were about equally active ( well since MSS has been known about) but this one has slowed down - CSW is past 100 and counting (Alex released the demos on page 54 I think a couple of weeks ago)

I really would like a couple of short demos to show the sound etc


----------



## Casiquire

Eh. I'm not about to speculate that there are no demos therefore it must sound awful. They've released amazing libraries before that they didn't go shouting about!


----------



## Pablocrespo

yes, but I think that it would be useful for financial planning to know more about the price (I think it should be decided by now if just some final tweaks delayed it) and some demos.


----------



## sinkd

rmak said:


> Oh no MSs coming out in jan? Was hoping i could decide between this or discounted bbcso core as a first string lib =(. I guess I ll wait until jan...


MSS is going to be way more extensive and versatile than BBSCO CORE, and I expect more expensive. But CORE will give you a lot of other instrument basics, though.


----------



## Batrawi

For developers, to each their own when it comes to how they believe it's the best way to present & release their libraries... some developers prefer teasing with audio demos way ahead before announcing any prices and even waaay ahead before announcing an actual release date (eg. Performance Samples)... others may prefer just coming out of the blue with everything ready, such as audio demos, walkthrough videos, price, release date etc..(eg. Cinematic Studio) in order to give their clients a consistent overall picture of the product at a certain point of time so that they can make up their mind with all given/tangible information... I'm not saying that one method is better than the other, but at the end of the day none of these methods (at least for me) should be worrying or perceived negatively so long as the developer would eventually be fair to give us as much info as possible and enough time to make an informed decision... that said, I'm happy to wait for Audiobro to gradually release the necessary info throughout Jan uptill releasing MSS by end of month hopefully.


----------



## Noeticus

Time for a teaser video.


----------



## John Longley

I’d really just like to know crossgrade pricing.


----------



## rmak

sinkd said:


> MSS is going to be way more extensive and versatile than BBSCO CORE, and I expect more expensive. But CORE will give you a lot of other instrument basics, though.


yea I know. I wish it would come out the same time as SF sales...


----------



## sourcefor

rmak said:


> yea I know. I wish it would come out the same time as SF sales...


Yes I wish the same as I would like to pick up Spitfire chamber strings but am curious about MSS!


----------



## muziksculp

Remember ... You can never have enough Strings Libraries.


----------



## Raphioli

I have a feeling when this was announced to be released by the end of this month, 
there might have been people who decided to pass on Black Friday sales.

IMO, they should at least throw some kind of a "bone" for those people :D
If demos are a no-go, even a price would be great.


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina Just out of curiosity – are any of MSS’s tone presets based on LotR, like the “Fellowship Ring” color in LASS? I’ve really grown partial to that tone in my strings writing, and I hope I can keep it going when MSS comes around …


----------



## zimm83

One more general question about Audiobro's vsts :. does the ART function sustain with the sustain pedal ? would be great . It works in Toc2 but not in Spitfire's Ostinatum. Thanks.


----------



## dxmachina

> Just out of curiosity – are any of MSS’s tone presets based on LotR, like the “Fellowship Ring” color in LASS?



The Fellowship reverb is definitely included (as are all the preset reverbs used for the LASS colors). In terms of timbral color preset (outside of reverb) there isn't a Fellowship preset at this point, but we can definitely take some requests if that's something you're hoping for. The reverb will get you pretty close though...



> does the ART function sustain with the sustain pedal ?



Out of the box the sustain pedal is assigned to the ART on/off button. So you'd hold the pedal and then any notes you want rhythm-ized. If you want the pattern to sustain itself while the pedal is still down (but after you release notes) you would also assign the pedal to the Latch button. 

TLDR; yes, when using "Latch" mode.

--

I know everyone is anxious for some more info on pricing and video/audio. I think you can expect that after the holidays.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Damnnn the smart features are great


----------



## Noc

dxmachina said:


> The Fellowship reverb is definitely included (as are all the preset reverbs used for the LASS colors). In terms of timbral color preset (outside of reverb) there isn't a Fellowship preset at this point, but we can definitely take some requests if that's something you're hoping for. The reverb will get you pretty close though...


Timbre is definitely what I’m thinking about when I’m talking about presets. Reverb-wise, I use my own plugin that I apply to all instruments for a cohesive feel. But I love LASS’s ability to change the timbre of the strings – light & airy (Airy Strings), epic & sweeping (Fellowship), dark & moody (Bat Man), brooding & dramatic (Shawshank), close & classical (Tallis), etc., etc. It instantly gives the library so much versatility by allowing it to fit just right with different styles & moods. Would be fantastic to have something like that with MSS.


----------



## paulmatthew

Does anyone know if having Lass Legato Sordino will cut down the cost of the upgrade price from Lass Full to MSS?


----------



## Casiquire

paulmatthew said:


> Does anyone know if having Lass Legato Sordino will cut down the cost of the upgrade price from Lass Full to MSS?


The entirety of our knowledge of MSS pricing is that owners of LASS Full will get a "good" upgrade price and that we'll learn more soon. That's all we know lol.


----------



## sourcefor

Yeah I passed on spitfires sale for this!


----------



## lettucehat

Have aleatoric and general effects come up yet? Considering Uist at the moment, which I know has brass and winds, but still curious.


----------



## ChristianM

@dxmachina for solo violas?


----------



## Sovereign

I just went over the feature list, and for a comprehensive library I'm really missing something important here. I see there's fingered legato, great. But where's the bow-change 'legato' for detached playing? For many passages that's equally important as slurred.


----------



## muziksculp

Sovereign said:


> I just went over the feature list, and for a comprehensive library I'm really missing something important here. I see there's fingered legato, great. But where's the bow-change 'legato' for detached playing? For many passages that's equally important as slurred.



@Sovereign 

I'm glad you noticed this important detail. (Thanks)

Yes, I would like to hear from AudioBro or beta-testers if MSS offers Bowed-Legatos ? 

It would not make sense not to offer this type of legato in this library.


----------



## Batrawi

Sovereign said:


> I just went over the feature list, and for a comprehensive library I'm really missing something important here. I see there's fingered legato, great. But where's the bow-change 'legato' for detached playing? For many passages that's equally important as slurred.


I think it's not uncommon for most of the comprehensive libraries to have one or the other. In fact, I think there are very few libraries that have both and when that's the case, chances are big to expect quality issues. So I'm personally the kind of guy who prefers when developers focus their attention on 1 legato type instead of being splitted(and likely distracted) over 2. In the MSS case I'm glad they went for fingered legato. Especially that there might be a decent workaround for simulating bow-change legato with the "intuition" patches' disconnected legato (but that if they were ever able to bring the intuition patches to MSS)


----------



## muziksculp

@Batrawi ,

Bowed-Legatos are not easily emulated using fingered legatos. So, I wonder how AudioBro plans to implement Bowed-Leagos if they haven't sampled them.


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> @Batrawi ,
> 
> Bowed-Legatos are not easily emulated using fingered legatos. So, I wonder how AudioBro plans to implement Bowed-Leagos if they haven't sampled them.


1) they may just not implement it
2) they may implement it the CineStrings way (legato transitions with short notes overlay) but in MSS they may even take advantage for more convincing results with the various note attacks which they already recorded. Or...
3) go for scripted bow-change legato with the intuition patches


----------



## Sovereign

Batrawi said:


> I think it's not uncommon for most of the comprehensive libraries to have one or the other.


Which I always considered a major issue. Neither one is a substitute for the other. Players will be often alternating bow strokes when playing.


----------



## dgburns

Kevinside said:


> Lass... This was always on sale and i cannot buy it, cause this library sounds awful...
> I dont understand, why Lass was so hyped by so many out there...
> I think, the old VSL silent stage libraries are better, than LASs..
> So why are you all into Lass. What are the benefits with this ultra dry library.... And why is the legato so awful... I don´t understand the hype for Audio Bro... Look at the Symphony Strings by NI... They are unusable and wow awful... So whats so great with Audio Bro?
> 
> 
> PS: Apple M1...please wait for the next generation coming with the mbpro16, Imac and more...
> I tested my friends arm Mac and for audio and espically sample libraries... Its not worth it, cause of many reasons...



Well, I can’t speak to taste, how we all hear things is ultimately up to us. I am a long time LASS user. I use them all the time. I don’t even eq them much, I just accept the way they sound. Obviously, modest use of modwheel is the key. This has been discussed to death.

Lass can sound ugly, brash, especially that upper mid range on the violins. But so can the real thing. This is what actually impressed me the most when it came out, finally a library with the guts to give you the tools to make things sounds ‘on the other side of pretty’. It does not always work, it is not always the best choice. But it brings life to the mockup, the cellos are especially great. Ok maybe they have been strongly eq’d, they sound really forward in the midrange, but boy can they punch.

In the right hands, with the right arrangement, this is a libray with the capacity to emote very strongly. This appears to be an Audiobro trait, same as their brass. No training wheels or safety belt, you don’t program them with respect, it will suck. So don’t suck.

Your loss is my gain. 

I do hope there is a balance between the rawness of the old, but with some potential for added finess in the new lib. I for one will buy it as a no brainer. As was expressed by a fellow colleague here, my ROI on this lib has been ridiculous, LASS has paid for itself a hundred times over.

Looking forward to the new lib, I’m sure it will be fantastic.


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> 1) they may just not implement it
> 2) they may implement it the CineStrings way (legato transitions with short notes overlay) but in MSS they may even take advantage for more convincing results with the various note attacks which they already recorded. Or...
> 3) go for scripted bow-change legato with the intuition patches



Interesting. (Thanks)

It would also be nice if an AudioBro beta-tester can give us some feedback on this.


----------



## paulmatthew

Casiquire said:


> The entirety of our knowledge of MSS pricing is that owners of LASS Full will get a "good" upgrade price and that we'll learn more soon. That's all we know lol.


I'm guessing that there will be a separate upgrade price for Legato Sordino owners because MSS is showing a separate add on library for extra sordino , sul pont and sul tasto articulations. More info needed please.


----------



## Casiquire

paulmatthew said:


> I'm guessing that there will be a separate upgrade price for Legato Sordino owners because MSS is showing a separate add on library for extra sordino , sul pont and sul tasto articulations. More info needed please.


I sure hope so, for TOTALLY NOT SELFISH reasons


----------



## rmak

Does anyone think spitfire solo strings, mainly just the close mic, will work well with MSS with use of Seventh Heaven reverb? I see that there are solo instruments included in MSS, and it seems like they cover most of the bread and butter articulations. Maybe I should save my money and not purchase spitfire solo?

Or I guess at this point, no one knows much about what's going to work or not work. I have emotional violin and cello from BF, and I am guessing, although difficult to program well, they will do better.


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina If I may make a suggestion for a future update: It’d be great if you could implement Bartok pizz. for all instruments, not just basses. Those may be the most popular, but just like with sul tasto, the fact that Bartok on violins/violas/cellos isn’t as commonly used doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be super useful to have when you need it.


----------



## Noeticus

HAPPY NEW YEAR! To all at Audiobro... oh, and also everyone here at VI-Control.


----------



## axb312

dxmachina said:


> --
> 
> I know everyone is anxious for some more info on pricing and video/audio. I think you can expect that after the holidays.


@dxmachina I would like to know if Audiobro intends to follow the same scheme as Modern Scoring Brass, a high introductory price and better discount later? I believe the intro price should be the best price on a product for at least the first 2-3 years of it's existence...


----------



## lettucehat

I don't think MSB's price dropping to 50% of its list price was really part of the plan...


----------



## axb312

@dxmachina Donno if these have been answered yet or not but wondering:

1. How well does this lib handle playable runs/ fast legato?

2. How many dynamic layers does the lib have?


----------



## Toecutter

axb312 said:


> @dxmachina I would like to know if Audiobro intends to follow the same scheme as Modern Scoring Brass, a high introductory price and better discount later? I believe the intro price should be the best price on a product for at least the first 2-3 years of it's existence...


Yea MSB dropping to $399 so soon when intro price was $599 sounds like a bad joke, I'd be upset. Waiting to see if MSS will have a better pricing scheme.


----------



## dxmachina

Happy New Year, everyone! Hope everyone had a great holiday.

I believe MSS pricing will all be announced this week (including all the various product-to-product pricing). If there are any questions after that let me know.



> Yes, I would like to hear from AudioBro or beta-testers if MSS offers Bowed-Legatos ?


We do have a feature for playing bowed/bow-change legato and it does not use any extra short sample overlays. Recording a huge variety of sustain attacks and dynamics allows us to offer this. It will be accessible in realtime in our unified patch architecture... which means you can change all the legato playing technique through CCs, Velocity, KeySwitches, and/or automation.



> How well does this lib handle playable runs/ fast legato?


I think you'll be pleased, but better to let this get covered in audio/video and let you decide. My opinion is biased by a couple years of intense work. 



> How many dynamic layers does the lib have?


It's not a simple answer... but generally 4 dynamics for each of the 3 sustain-attack-types (and then ag 3/4 more with multiple attacks for non vibrato). In practice (at least in my opinion) it's really like having 12 sustained dynamic techniques with Vibrato control - and offers the best balance of expression/playability and sample-count.


----------



## Casiquire

If you need any more of those beta testers you know where to find me! 😆


----------



## Batrawi

The prices are now announced on the website!!! As LASS Full owner I'm very happy


----------



## LHall

Batrawi said:


> The prices are now announced on the website!!! As LASS Full owner I'm very happy


Agree - more than happy. Can't wait!!


----------



## Beans

Neat that owners of other products get a discount, too.


----------



## Kurosawa

Oh that ostinato feature looks very interesting! Regarding the back and forth legato repetition.


----------



## lettucehat

Surprised (as a non-LASS owner) at the loyalty price, but that regular intro price is very aggressively competitive indeed. Can't wait to hear it in action, looks like things are right on schedule.


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> The prices are now announced on the website!!! As LASS Full owner I'm very happy


Oh.. Thanks for the heads up on this. I will check their website ASAP.


----------



## muziksculp

I also noticed the library sizes are now posted on their website.


*Modern Scoring Strings Library Size:*
About 131GB with lossless compressed audio files (approximately 160GB uncompressed). 140GB required during installation for the entire 130GB library.



*Modern Scoring Strings Expanded Legato Library Size:*
About 60GB with lossless compressed audio files (approximately 80GB uncompressed). 70GB required during installation for the entire 60GB library.


----------



## rmak

Hmm with the discount offered, it might make sense to purchase Genesis and then MSS?


----------



## Casiquire

I don't know why i had my hopes up that it would be dirt cheap for LASS Full owners, but I suppose it's still a very good value for how much you get! I'll definitely buy in


----------



## Noc

muziksculp said:


> I also noticed the library sizes are now posted on their website.


Weren’t the library sizes already included on the site? Pretty sure I remember seeing them there before.

Very nice pricing. Grabbing it as soon as I can.

If I may make another request/suggestion @dxmachina – you’ve mentioned before that trem. sul pont. is included in MSS, yet it’s missing from the articulations list (it just shows trem. as a separate sustain). Would it be possible to update that list to include any articulations (esp. combos, like with trem. + sul pont.) that aren’t included yet in it, just to have a complete picture of the flexibility MSS offers? I know we’ll all find out soon anyway once it’s available, but it’s nice to know in advance.


----------



## John Longley

Casiquire said:


> I don't know why i had my hopes up that it would be dirt cheap for LASS Full owners, but I suppose it's still a very good value for how much you get! I'll definitely buy in


I think it’s as cheap as it was ever going to be.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Casiquire said:


> I don't know why i had my hopes up that it would be dirt cheap for LASS Full owners, but I suppose it's still a very good value for how much you get! I'll definitely buy in


I had the same notion. Of course, when you read through the features and try to grasp the scope of the content you get the idea that this might be on a whole different league than most other string library releases. Now all we need to know is how all that actually sounds...!

Interesting.. if I read the chart on the site correctly, after the introductory period it seems that there will be no discounts for LASS users afterwards.


----------



## Toecutter

Very satisfied with the pricing!

+1 Now all we need to know is how all that actually sounds

Very interested in hearing how the expansion sounds. I can live without the legato transitions if it's possible to get a decent fake sordino sound with the base library. I don't think most could tell the difference in a mix when done right.


----------



## Casiquire

Wunderhorn said:


> I had the same notion. Of course, when you read through the features and try to grasp the scope of the content you get the idea that this might be on a whole different league than most other string library releases. Now all we need to know is how all that actually sounds...!
> 
> Interesting.. if I read the chart on the site correctly, after the introductory period it seems that there will be no discounts for LASS users afterwards.


I agree, the scope is massive. It makes total sense


----------



## muziksculp

Let me predict, Once it's released, Someone will be posting this :

"Oh.. the legatos are bumpy here. I can't use this library." 

Given this has been a pretty popular type of complaint on VI-C for almost every new Strings library released after CSS.


----------



## Raphioli

Raphioli said:


> My price guess for the crossgrade is around $399 or $400. Full library probably at $900 to 1000 without intro price.


Wow, I think I guessed it right! :D


----------



## muziksculp

I'm also curious how the MSS Solo Violin, and Cello will sound compared to LASS First Chairs.

The Solo Viola is recycled from LASS. Not sure why they did that, they mention it is to match MSS Sound, but I don't really understand that reasoning.


----------



## Wunderhorn

I would not have minded if the first chairs would have been made into an optional expansion to bring the base price down another bit.
Personally I would be interested in the legato extension before having solo instruments (already got that covered)


----------



## muziksculp

Noc said:


> Weren’t the library sizes already included on the site? Pretty sure I remember seeing them there before.


I can't recall if I saw this info the last time I visited AudioBro, anyways.. I just saw this today, and imho. it doesn't hurt to post that info. on this thread.


----------



## muziksculp

MSS is due by the end of this month. I wonder if Sonokinetic's new Strings Library will be released around the same time. That should be an interesting String library Combo release  

I'm guessing the Sonokinetic Strings Library will be out during Q1-2021, so maybe Feb, or March. We shall see.


----------



## Rex282

Casiquire said:


> I don't know why i had my hopes up that it would be dirt cheap for LASS Full owners, but I suppose it's still a very good value for how much you get! I'll definitely buy



I'm very dissapointed for all the hype on the great price for AB investors...this would have to be the "the srtring library to replace them all" which I'm positive it isn't..pass


----------



## John Longley

muziksculp said:


> I'm also curious how the MSS Solo Violin, and Cello will sound compared to LASS First Chairs.
> 
> The Solo Viola is recycled from LASS. Not sure why they did that, they mention it is to match MSS Sound, but I don't really understand that reasoning.


= the new Viola had issues. /story


----------



## mcalis

Rex282 said:


> I'm very dissapointed for all the hype on the great price for AB investors...this would have to be the "the srtring library to replace them all" which I'm positive it isn't..pass


Of course it isn't, there is no such string library and I'm not sure if anyone ever claimed it to be. That said, it's pretty baffling to me that you can make a judgement call on the library without having heard a single note. I mean you could think it's too expensive, but then what do you base that on? None of us know what it sounds like our what it can and can't do.
Anyway, by all means pass on it, to each their own, I just don't quite understand how you're able to make that call before having heard a single note from the library.


----------



## muziksculp

John Longley said:


> = the new Viola had issues. /story


Hmmmm..... Issues with The Instrument, the player, both, or .... ?


----------



## John Longley

muziksculp said:


> Hmmmm..... Issues with The Instrument, the player, both, or .... ?


They aren't going to tell us that, but you don't use old content when you have new content unless there is a problem with that content. Else you just wasted resources for no reason.


----------



## muziksculp

John Longley said:


> They aren't going to tell us that, but you don't use old content when you have new content unless there is a problem with that content. Else you just wasted resources for no reason.


Well, I find it very odd. 

If they had problems with the player, they can hire another one, if they had problems with editing the samples, well.. they could take more time to get it right, so.. it's a bit of a mystery, and makes no sense to me that they will use the old LASS solo viola samples for a brand new library, where everything is re-done.


----------



## Kony

It's only the FC though, not the whole section. Who knows, perhaps they preferred the LASS version - it does sound good and malleable.


----------



## muziksculp

Kony said:


> It's only the FC though, not the whole section. Who knows, perhaps they preferred the LASS version - it does sound good and malleable.


Yeah.. I'm glad they didn't decide to keep the whole Viola section from LASS.

I still find it very strange. I guess we will never know why they kept it, because I don't think that's the best sounding viola they could have sampled. It just makes no sense to me.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Why do you keep asking the same questions?



muziksculp said:


> It's puzzling to me why he would decide to not record a new Solo Viola, maybe he didn't want to deal with a Violist, and thought the old one would do the job ? what other reason can it be ?



Sebastian already answered this (after your previous post in November).



dxmachina said:


> I saw some questions as to why we're including the LASS Solo Viola. It was definitely not the plan going in... but we happened to try layering the LASS Viola with Modern Scoring Strings' Viola section and it was just too good not to include.


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Why do you keep asking the same questions?


I ask because I didn't know there was an answer to my question. 

So.. Thanks for letting me know.  

That Solo Viola must be very special.


----------



## dcoscina

muziksculp said:


> Interesting. (Thanks)
> 
> It would also be nice if an AudioBro beta-tester can give us some feedback on this.


That would violate the NDA they signed


----------



## muziksculp

dcoscina said:


> That would violate the NDA they signed


Yes, I understand. 

We will know more details when it's released.


----------



## Casiquire

Best not to jump to conclusions about something we know nothing about.


----------



## Sovereign

So how does this discount thing work if I purchased Audiobro products through NI?


----------



## constaneum

Sovereign said:


> So how does this discount thing work if I purchased Audiobro products through NI?


should be able. i dont see the reason for not being so.


----------



## muziksculp

Any info. on where MSS was recorded, which scoring stage ? and the size/dimensions of the scoring stage ?


----------



## jamwerks

This is pretty much 3 or 4 libraries in one by the latest standards. So the pricing seems very reasonable. There might be a "lite" version in a year or two for those who want to spend less.


----------



## Living Fossil

@dxmachina :
I have a question in regards to the synced articulations (octave runs, scales, ostinati):
When using short scales and runs, how easy will it be to set up the typical late romantic constellations, where instead of using plain 16th or triplets different sections perform different n-toles?
(Like normal 16th against quintoles against triplets against septoles)
Will this be doable in an easy way?
Will there be an easy way to use ostinato intervals in quintoles?

Also, with regards to scales:
Will it be possible to create custom scales (like e.g a major scale with an additional #4 [would be c-d-e-f-f#-g-a-b in C-maj] and similar?

p.s. as a long time LASS and MSB user i'm already really excited about this new release...


----------



## Batrawi

Can someone check my math and let me know if I'm missing something?

Total ibrary size(131GB) ÷ 12 sections(10 divisi+2 solos) ÷ 4 mic positions = 2.7GB only per section.. which seems very very small compared to the huge content per section...right?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

jamwerks said:


> This is pretty much 3 or 4 libraries in one by the latest standards. So the pricing seems very reasonable. There might be a "lite" version in a year or two for those who want to spend less.


I think it's pretty damn close to berlin strings main in terms of size on disc, so I think the pricing is fair. 

I don't think I want to spend another 550$ on string libraries right now though so I might be sitting this one out.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Batrawi said:


> Can someone check my math and let me know if I'm missing something?
> 
> Total ibrary size(131GB) ÷ 12 sections(10 divisi+2 solos) ÷ 4 mic positions = 2.7GB only per section.. which seems very very small compared to the huge content per section...right?


Valid point actually. I think the library I compared it to(berlin strings main) was ~7 GB per instrument using the same formula(off the top of my head it was 160gb/5 instruments/mostly 4 mics(a few patches have a leader mic)

You do get over twice the instruments though, so it's got that going for it.


----------



## mcalis

ProfoundSilence said:


> Valid point actually. I think the library I compared it to(berlin strings main) was ~7 GB per instrument using the same formula(off the top of my head it was 160gb/5 instruments/mostly 4 mics(a few patches have a leader mic)
> 
> You do get over twice the instruments though, so it's got that going for it.


To add another point of comparison: CSS is 32GB of sample content on disk, that is ~6.4GB per section /4 mics = ~1.6GB of *compressed* content per microphone. So MSS with 131GB of compressed sample content amounts to a little over 4x the sample content compared to CSS. Anyway, not sure how much of an indicator size is, but there you go.


----------



## ChristianM

muziksculp said:


> I'm also curious how the MSS Solo Violin, and Cello will sound compared to LASS First Chairs.
> 
> The Solo Viola is recycled from LASS. Not sure why they did that, they mention it is to match MSS Sound, but I don't really understand that reasoning.


I don't understand either and no explanations despite my request.
I would like to know if there will be an update for the violas before buying!


----------



## mcalis

ChristianM said:


> I don't understand either and no explanations despite my request.
> I would like to know if there will be an update for the violas before buying!


Except there is an explanation, @ALittleNightMusic has _just_ repeated the answer a couple of posts up... 





__





Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings


It's only the FC though, not the whole section. Who knows, perhaps they preferred the LASS version - it does sound good and malleable. Yeah.. I'm glad they didn't decide to keep the whole Viola section from LASS. I still find it very strange. I guess we will never know why they kept it...




vi-control.net


----------



## sinkd

Casiquire said:


> Best not to jump to conclusions about something we know nothing about.


This is not the American Way.


----------



## Batrawi

ProfoundSilence said:


> You do get over twice the instruments though, so it's got that going for it.


It doesn't matter though if we're ultimately calculating the size per section, no...? my point eventually is that MSS size per section seems very small compared to (let's say a similarly extensive library) such as Berlin's(7GB) for example.. which looks very strange to me


----------



## ChristianM

mcalis said:


> Except there is an explanation, @ALittleNightMusic has _just_ repeated the answer a couple of posts up...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings
> 
> 
> It's only the FC though, not the whole section. Who knows, perhaps they preferred the LASS version - it does sound good and malleable. Yeah.. I'm glad they didn't decide to keep the whole Viola section from LASS. I still find it very strange. I guess we will never know why they kept it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


It lacks articulations compared to the other solos.
I would like to know if there will be an update for the violas before buying!


----------



## Beans

ChristianM said:


> It lacks articulations compared to the other solos.
> I would like to know if there will be an update for the violas before buying!


Never make a purchase based on something that doesn't exist. If you need an update before buying, wait for an update.


----------



## pawelmorytko

muziksculp said:


> Let me predict, Once it's released, Someone will be posting this :
> 
> "Oh.. the legatos are bumpy here. I can't use this library."
> 
> Given this has been a pretty popular type of complaint on VI-C for almost every new Strings library released after CSS.


Thing is though, doesn't matter how many articulations, mic positions, of GigaBytes of content a string library has. If you don't think it has a nice tone, or don't think it's usable because of its legato then you wouldn't buy it would you? Personally I don't think I was ever impressed by LASS, or MSB, and I doubt MSS is going to wow me either.


----------



## Pablocrespo

@dxmachina 
Has the LASS owner discount a time limit? or I can use it whenever I want? I am very interested but money is tight right now.


----------



## khollister

If I understand the chart correctly, I get no additional discount for owning both LASS Full and LASS LS? I must say $550 seems a bit steep as an upgrade unless you are comparing traditional VSL library pricing. I question the marketing decision to ask this much immediately after the holiday season when everyone has likely blown their budget on sales. The fact they weren't willing to even disclose the upgrade pricing last month when it might have secured their "place in line" in folks library budgeting during the sales is a bit of a warning sign itself.


----------



## william81723

khollister said:


> If I understand the chart correctly, I get no additional discount for owning both LASS Full and LASS LS? I must say $550 seems a bit steep as an upgrade unless you are comparing traditional VSL library pricing. I question the marketing decision to ask this much immediately after the holiday season when everyone has likely blown their budget on sales. The fact they weren't willing to even disclose the upgrade pricing last month when it might have secured their "place in line" in folks library budgeting during the sales is a bit of a warning sign itself.


So I cry.


----------



## lumcas

Pablocrespo said:


> @dxmachina
> Has the LASS owner discount a time limit? or I can use it whenever I want? I am very interested but money is tight right now.


It says it'll run for approx. 1 month which is a bit tight (not only money).


----------



## axb312

lumcas said:


> It says it'll run for approx. 1 month which is a bit tight (not only money).


If previous, recent trends are followed, I expect the lib to be at 399 USD or lower for all within a year of release.

Unless @dxmachina can provide confirmation to the contrary.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Yeah, I believe loyalty discounts should not expire, not complaining but I have bought almost everything from a developer which has this policy. 

I think is both the best way to treat your customers and also a great marketing tool.


----------



## Eptesicus

muziksculp said:


> Let me predict, Once it's released, Someone will be posting this :
> 
> "Oh.. the legatos are bumpy here. I can't use this library."
> 
> Given this has been a pretty popular type of complaint on VI-C for almost every new Strings library released after CSS.


Well, maybe sample developers should spend more time on producing good and convincing legato then .

A library can have the nicest room and all the articulations possible, but if it sounds **** playing an expressive melodic line, its going to be useless for most.


----------



## Batrawi

khollister said:


> I must say $550 seems a bit steep as an upgrade


It's not really an upgrade. They're releasing a completely new library (with 2 years in production) and kindly offering a special/loyalty price for those who bought from them before. They could have just neglected this gesture altogether in the first place and I doubt nobody would have noticed or complained... so why is that an issue now?


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Beans said:


> Neat that owners of other products get a discount, too.


Where do you see this ? I can only see the chart at the top that mentions LASS owners. 

Do you get further discount for owning more Audiobro libraries? If so can some one point me to it !


----------



## stargazer

Is it still not possible to register an account at Audiobro if you bought from somewhere else?
I bought Genesis from Native Instruments, and at that point I wasn’t allowed to start an Audiobro account.
If it’s still that way, there’s no loyalty discount available if you never used the Audiobro store...
Too bad if they are going to loose some customers due to that.



> We are excited to announce the initial promotion pricing of Modern Scoring Strings (MSS) and MSS Expanded Legato as well as the LASS Full Loyalty program. When MSS is available for sale, the prices in the chart below will be for a limited time. You will be able to log into your account and see your updated prices in the store. New customers will not have an account yet (you need an Audiobro purchase to do this):


----------



## yellow_lupine

Do you think will ever be a LASS 3 library now that MSS is about to be released?


----------



## Beans

Paul Jelfs said:


> Where do you see this ? I can only see the chart at the top that mentions LASS owners.
> 
> Do you get further discount for owning more Audiobro libraries? If so can some one point me to it !








"I'm an Audiobro Store customer but don't own LA Scoring Strings Full." 

I take that as, for example, I get a discount because I purchased Genesis directly from the Audiobro store.


----------



## ansthenia

Pablocrespo said:


> Yeah, I believe loyalty discounts should not expire, not complaining but I have bought almost everything from a developer which has this policy.
> 
> I think is both the best way to treat your customers and also a great marketing tool.


I don't believe this is what's going to happen. The prices that it is currently showing, and state will only last approx 1 month, are the loyalty discounts *combined* with the intro price. After 1 month, the price will go up due to the intro price ending, but there will still be a LASS loyalty discount in effect.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Beans said:


> "I'm an Audiobro Store customer but don't own LA Scoring Strings Full."
> 
> I take that as, for example, I get a discount because I purchased Genesis directly from the Audiobro store.


Ahhh i Took that as meaning, you only had Lite version or First chairs ? Could be interpreted either way - though the fact it says FULL , would to me more likely you need to own at least Some LA scoring strings related product? 

....just noticed the Audiobro Store customer, which implies you have another product. 

Now we just need to hear demos !


----------



## Beans

Paul Jelfs said:


> Ahhh i Took that as meaning, you only had Lite version or First chairs ? Could be interpreted either way - though the fact it says FULL , would to me more likely you need to own at least Some LA scoring strings related product?
> 
> ....just noticed the Audiobro Store customer, which implies you have another product.
> 
> Now we just need to hear demos !


Yeah, if it was something like, "You purchased non-Full LASS from Audiobro.com," then it really should say that explicitly. For me, I'm hopeful that this is, "You have made non-LASS Full purchases at Audiobro.com, such as Lite, MSB, or Genesis."


----------



## mushanga

khollister said:


> If I understand the chart correctly, I get no additional discount for owning both LASS Full and LASS LS? I must say $550 seems a bit steep as an upgrade unless you are comparing traditional VSL library pricing. I question the marketing decision to ask this much immediately after the holiday season when everyone has likely blown their budget on sales. The fact they weren't willing to even disclose the upgrade pricing last month when it might have secured their "place in line" in folks library budgeting during the sales is a bit of a warning sign itself.


This is a good point. @dxmachina are you able to confirm if there will be an additional discount for those who own LASS Legato Sordino as well as LASS Full?


----------



## Raphioli

Batrawi said:


> Can someone check my math and let me know if I'm missing something?
> 
> Total ibrary size(131GB) ÷ 12 sections(10 divisi+2 solos) ÷ 4 mic positions = 2.7GB only per section.. which seems very very small compared to the huge content per section...right?



That makes me wonder...

Did they say anything about how they sampled MSS?
Meaning, if they sampled every whole tone or minor 3rd etc.
I'd really like this to be mentioned on their website. (it should be the norm for all sample libraries imo)


----------



## dxmachina

Good morning, folks. Pricing always comes with some indigestion.








> Has the LASS owner discount a time limit? or I can use it whenever I want?


At this point we've committed to a month at this loyalty price... but the intention is to keep a loyalty program.



> are you able to confirm if there will be an additional discount for those who own LASS Legato Sordino as well as LASS Full?


There isn't an _additional_ discount for LASS LS. It's basically three tiers: (1) new customer intro price, (2) bought any version of LASS Full from us loyalty price, (3) bought anything else from us loyalty price. So if you own LASS LS but not LASS Full you do get a discount... but the largest loyalty discount is and will likely always be from LASS Full.

One thing that maybe bears repeating is that this is not truly a LASS upgrade... it's a new string library. But we've been fortunate enough to be in business for a decade now and wanted to provide a substantial discount to the folks that have kept the lights on for us.



> Do you think will ever be a LASS 3 library now that MSS is about to be released?


Yes, later this year. 



> I would like to know if there will be an update for the violas before buying!


Just to be 100% clear.... both Viola sections (2 divisi sections) are _completely_ new recordings and have articulation and feature parity with the rest of the library. So there's nothing to update... it's brand new.

We did not record a new *Solo* Viola, but during development we happened to try layering the LASS First Chair Viola and it was a really fantastic sound. So we re-mixed the original viola and included it for that purpose. Think of it as a bonus, and one that can be extremely useful in the section (at least that's what we found).

Sorry if this has caused any confusion... we just wanted to be 100% transparent about the solo viola. Everything else is new. 



> (Like normal 16th against quintoles against triplets against septoles)
> Will this be doable in an easy way?
> Will there be an easy way to use ostinato intervals in quintoles?


For quintoles/septoles/etc... there isn't a truly simple way in 1.0 (beyond just playing in the parts of course). I can probably offer you relatively quick solutions in a few cases, but something like this could definitely be better done in an update without too much fuss. We're feature-locked for release now, but I'll certainly add it to the ideas list.



> Will it be possible to create custom scales (like e.g a major scale with an additional #4 [would be c-d-e-f-f#-g-a-b in C-maj] and similar?


This will be easier to demo in a video, but right now the options for scales are:

*Select any key and tonality/mode
1. Diatonic Held mode: hold a note and the scale will continue up or down in the key/tonality you've chosen. You can start on non-diatonic chord tones

2. Chromatic Held mode: same as above, just chromatic

3. Start-End note mode: Play the scale start and end notes and the scale will play. Again, you can start and/or end on non-diatonic notes.

4. Fully manual mode: Play scale elements of tuplets or 16ths in various combinations

(there are also octave modes as well as tempo synched full octave Maj/Min runs)

In terms of _completely_ custom scales that fall outside the realm of what that gives you you can either manually combine scale elements (#4) or use playable runs.

--

Hopefully that answers a few questions anyway. For those doing the math here's something fun to think about... LASS Full is around 17GB for 20 sections. MSS is by far the most extensive thing we're ever done. It's taken us the better part of a decade to figure out how to do something with a scope this large. There were no corners cut. Pretty soon you'll take a listen and decide for yourselves.


----------



## axb312

dxmachina said:


> Good morning, folks. Pricing always comes with some indigestion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At this point we've committed to a month at this loyalty price... but the intention is to keep a loyalty program.
> 
> 
> There isn't an _additional_ discount for LASS LS. It's basically three tiers: (1) new customer intro price, (2) bought any version of LASS Full from us loyalty price, (3) bought anything else from us loyalty price. So if you own LASS LS but not LASS Full you do get a discount... but the largest loyalty discount is and will likely always be from LASS Full.
> 
> One thing that maybe bears repeating is that this is not truly a LASS upgrade... it's a new string library. But we've been fortunate enough to be in business for a decade now and wanted to provide a substantial discount to the folks that have kept the lights on for us.
> 
> 
> Yes, later this year.
> 
> 
> Just to be 100% clear.... both Viola sections (2 divisi sections) are _completely_ new recordings and have articulation and feature parity with the rest of the library. So there's nothing to update... it's brand new.
> 
> We did not record a new *Solo* Viola, but during development we happened to try layering the LASS First Chair Viola and it was a really fantastic sound. So we re-mixed the original viola and included it for that purpose. Think of it as a bonus, and one that can be extremely useful in the section (at least that's what we found).
> 
> Sorry if this has caused any confusion... we just wanted to be 100% transparent about the solo viola. Everything else is new.
> 
> 
> For quintoles/septoles/etc... there isn't a truly simple way in 1.0 (beyond just playing in the parts of course). I can probably offer you relatively quick solutions in a few cases, but something like this could definitely be better done in an update without too much fuss. We're feature-locked for release now, but I'll certainly add it to the ideas list.
> 
> 
> This will be easier to demo in a video, but right now the options for scales are:
> 
> *Select any key and tonality/mode
> 1. Diatonic Held mode: hold a note and the scale will continue up or down in the key/tonality you've chosen. You can start on non-diatonic chord tones
> 
> 2. Chromatic Held mode: same as above, just chromatic
> 
> 3. Start-End note mode: Play the scale start and end notes and the scale will play. Again, you can start and/or end on non-diatonic notes.
> 
> 4. Fully manual mode: Play scale elements of tuplets or 16ths in various combinations
> 
> (there are also octave modes as well as tempo synched full octave Maj/Min runs)
> 
> In terms of _completely_ custom scales that fall outside the realm of what that gives you you can either manually combine scale elements (#4) or use playable runs.
> 
> --
> 
> Hopefully that answers a few questions anyway. For those doing the math here's something fun to think about... LASS Full is around 17GB for 20 sections. MSS is by far the most extensive thing we're ever done. It's taken us the better part of a decade to figure out how to do something with a scope this large. There were no corners cut. Pretty soon you'll take a listen and decide for yourselves.


To be honest @dxmachina, I think the pricing is pretty fair. just worried that buying into the loyalty/ first buyer/etc. etc. pricing will not be so fruitful in the long run, looking at what happened (pricing wise) with Modern Scoring Brass.

Excited to hear the library either way.


----------



## Beans

> (3) bought anything else from us loyalty price.


❤️


----------



## Noeticus

Can someone explain how the divisi is different between MSS and LASS 2.5?

I am new to music and keep thinking that LASS has more separation (?) than MSS.


----------



## Raphioli

@dxmachina

Are you able to disclose if MSS was sampled every whole tone/m3rd/M3rd etc?

I'm assuming this will probably differ between a sustain patch or a phrase/run patch.
Or even differ depending on the register.
So I hope you can provide some detailed information regarding this, since this is hard to spot from demos/videos. And especially since sample libraries are nonrefundable. 
I'd like to know as much as possible.

Thx!


----------



## Casiquire

ChristianM said:


> It lacks articulations compared to the other solos.
> I would like to know if there will be an update for the violas before buying!


Given that this is an ensemble library, not a soloist library, and the first chairs are likely only there for the sake of a little more detail like in the original LASS, this seems backwards. It's kind of like saying you aren't a fan of Vista because the harp doesn't come with pres de la table


----------



## dts_marin

Casiquire said:


> Given that this is an ensemble library, not a soloist library, and the first chairs are likely only there for the sake of a little more detail like in the original LASS, this seems backwards. It's kind of like saying you aren't a fan of Vista bec


If the solo viola was complete then the missing solo contrabass would be the problem! It is a never ending cycle.


----------



## cnogradi

Is there any reason to buy LASS full now to get the crossgrade discount which would translate to paying $150 for LASS compared to just buying only MSS full? Seems that the concensus is that LASS is pretty outdated. Maybe doing so would ensure another discount when LASS 3 is released?


----------



## dxmachina

> To be honest @dxmachina, I think the pricing is pretty fair. just worried that buying into the loyalty/ first buyer/etc. etc. pricing will not be so fruitful in the long run


Understood. We're honestly really unhappy at the direction the industry has gone in terms of pricing. It's not so much disappointment that libraries are selling for less money, but that there is such pricing whiplash and it leaves customers and developers (at least us) with a bad taste. What I can tell you is that we do believe these price points are somewhat disruptive for a library of this scope and that the offer we're making for LASS Full owners is unique.



> Are you able to disclose if MSS was sampled every whole tone/m3rd/M3rd etc?
> 
> I'm assuming this will probably differ between a sustain patch or a phrase/run patch.
> Or even differ depending on the register.


Whole tone... but legato/port/gliss are sampled chromatically to an octave from each whole tone for obvious reasons. The only other exception I can think of is the low register of natural harmonics - but that's a physics limitation. 



> Can someone explain how the divisi is different between MSS and LASS 2.5?
> 
> I am new to music and keep thinking that LASS has more separation (?) than MSS.


In LASS each section was split into 3 smaller parts (Violins were 4+4+8 for example). MSS uses 2 splits (so 8+8 on Violins). There's one big additional wrinkle though... LASS had artificial Violins 2 that re-used the Violins 1 samples. MSS has _real_ recorded Violins 2 (again split in half 7+7). So in the case of Violins you can get a completely natural 4-way split with MSS.


----------



## Raphioli

dxmachina said:


> Whole tone... but legato/port/gliss are sampled chromatically to an octave from each whole tone for obvious reasons. The only other exception I can think of is the low register of natural harmonics - but that's a physics limitation.


Amazing! Thank you!


----------



## Kevinside

When will the demos come...?


----------



## ChristianM

Beans said:


> Never make a purchase based on something that doesn't exist. If you need an update before buying, wait for an update.


Let me maintain my question


----------



## ChristianM

Casiquire said:


> Given that this is an ensemble library, not a soloist library, and the first chairs are likely only there for the sake of a little more detail like in the original LASS, this seems backwards. It's kind of like saying you aren't a fan of Vista because the harp doesn't come with pres de la table


I'm not fan of Vista, I's true 
But, the first chair have a sens on real section of strings


----------



## dcoscina

dxmachina said:


> Good morning, folks. Pricing always comes with some indigestion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that maybe bears repeating is that this is not truly a LASS upgrade... it's a new string library. But we've been fortunate enough to be in business for a decade now and wanted to provide a substantial discount to the folks that have kept the lights on for us.


Thanks for clarifying this. As a LASS 2.5 owner, I was curious about how the loyalty pricing was calculated.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

I think to be fair, few other developers offer discounts on a new String Library , if you own one of their older ones - (Think Spitfire, and OT and that is not a criticism of these developers ) .

Audio bro have stated many times that MSS is NOT LASS 3, but almost an entirely different library (Im looking at you First Chair Viola). Lass 3 is coming out later this year. So I think its actually pretty fair , if not generous , overall.

I think after BF and Xmas sales and give aways, we all feel a little Spoiled 

A couple of questions - If i asked this one before I apologise (short term memory problems :( )

So in theory can you get 4-way Divisi with a Master Violin patch (Pretty much what you did when you partner with Native Instruments for Symphony Series) - or is it just two separate patches (V1 ,v2) ?

And lastly, the fact that Whole tone sampling MUST BE good enough to fool even the most Golden ears, fascinates me. I know their is all sorts of tricks you can do with Kontakt, but if recorded with Vibrato, 
would the fact that every other sample is time + pitch stretched in some way not be able to discern if you were very very good at listening for these things ?

And what about the fact that if you used, say G then G# , even if could not hear any difference, the chance of the same Round robin being played with those two notes, could perhaps Sub consciously affect how you perceive the sound quality etc - as it has only been pitched up - or is that alone enough to make it sound like its own RR ?


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Paul Jelfs said:


> I think to be fair, few other developers offer discounts on a new String Library , if you own one of their older ones - (Think Spitfire, and OT and that is not a criticism of these developers ) .
> 
> Audio bro have stated many times that MSS is NOT LASS 3, but almost an entirely different library (Im looking at you First Chair Viola). Lass 3 is coming out later this year. So I think its actually pretty fair , if not generous , overall.



Completely agree. Seems pretty fair to me.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

"_In LASS each section was split into 3 smaller parts (Violins were 4+4+8 for example). MSS uses 2 splits (so 8+8 on Violins). There's one big additional wrinkle though... LASS had artificial Violins 2 that re-used the Violins 1 samples. MSS has real recorded Violins 2 (again split in half 7+7). So in the case of Violins you can get a completely natural 4-way split with MSS_."

IT Would be GREAT if we could also get some clever Ensemble patches , like in LASS 2.5 - The 6 Voice AA Divisi across the entire range etc - I presume these are the sort of things that might come in future updates.


----------



## Beans

Paul Jelfs said:


> I think to be fair, few other developers offer discounts on a new String Library , if you own one of their older ones - (Think Spitfire, and OT and that is not a criticism of these developers ) .


For what it's worth, OT recently had a discount on Berlin Symphonic Strings for owners of Berlin Strings.


----------



## Noeticus

dxmachina said:


> In LASS each section was split into 3 smaller parts (Violins were 4+4+8 for example). MSS uses 2 splits (so 8+8 on Violins). There's one big additional wrinkle though... LASS had artificial Violins 2 that re-used the Violins 1 samples. MSS has _real_ recorded Violins 2 (again split in half 7+7). So in the case of Violins you can get a completely natural 4-way split with MSS.


Thanks! 

I would have preferred more division, as in, say for violins that MSS have 4+4+4+4, and not 8+8. 

I hope that LASS 3.0 has 4+4+4+4.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Beans said:


> For what it's worth, OT recently had a discount on Berlin Symphonic Strings for owners of Berlin Strings.


This is true, but that is an extension of the Berlin Strings series (Unlike MSS from LASS), I agree maybe OT was not a good example as they do not have loads and loads different lines of string libraries.


----------



## khollister

dxmachina said:


> Understood. We're honestly really unhappy at the direction the industry has gone in terms of pricing. It's not so much disappointment that libraries are selling for less money, but that there is such pricing whiplash and it leaves customers and developers (at least us) with a bad taste. What I can tell you is that we do believe these price points are somewhat disruptive for a library of this scope and that the offer we're making for LASS Full owners is unique.


My post probably came across snarkier than I intended. I think I had a slightly different expectation based on the earlier comments made, which goes to show the potential backlash of developers dropping hints about pricing/availability.

I am rather amazed though that given how far along this product must be to release in 3 weeks or so, that some preliminary demos/videos of basic tone/articulations hasn't been released. Of course I'm amazed at only 2 demos being on the MSB website after all this time too.


----------



## davidanthony

khollister said:


> I am rather amazed though that given how far along this product must be to release in 3 weeks or so, that some preliminary demos/videos of basic tone/articulations hasn't been released.


@dxmachina mentioned "paperwork" being the reason for the delay a few weeks ago. I could imagine a few paperwork scenarios that tie everyone's hands until it comes through, and in those scenarios it's also hard to share specifics without either throwing someone under the bus or harming your position if there's 11th hour negotiating going on, so awkward silence remains the best way forward.

Whatever the reason I'm sure they don't want this -- there's already a post rating the performance of the library and we haven't even heard a note!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

dxmachina said:


> Understood. We're honestly really unhappy at the direction the industry has gone in terms of pricing. It's not so much disappointment that libraries are selling for less money, but that there is such pricing whiplash and it leaves customers and developers (at least us) with a bad taste. What I can tell you is that we do believe these price points are somewhat disruptive for a library of this scope and that the offer we're making for LASS Full owners is unique.


I think the crossgrade/loyalty pricing is more than fair. The full price is actually very low, in my opinion. I mean, you get two string libraries (because of divisi a2), separately recorded, with all these articulations. That's huge!

Don't want to make comparisons, but some recent string libaries (with similar price points) don't even have this scope of articulations. Many seem to forget about this!


----------



## artomatic

Very impressive, detailed string library - on paper.
Obviously, the audio demos will be the finally say for me.


----------



## richhickey

Sigh. 90% of the content of this forum is people declaring, at length, why they are _not_ getting or _don't like_ some lib due to demos, pricing expectations w/o any business reality, phase of the moon, upgrades, recent purchases, some long thing about some _other_ lib, dongles, girlfriends etc. 

This lib looks fantastic, unique, and reasonably priced. I hope they knock it out of the park.


----------



## Eptesicus

I think for the content the pricing is good.

Obviously the price is meaningless if it sounds bad though.

If it sounds great, has expressive and convincing legato (on a par or hopefully even better than CSS/con moto/vista) , and is this price it will be really good.


----------



## Kevinside

Yes...I don´t know, how the library sounds... So prices are useless...for me now


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Paul Jelfs said:


> This is true, but that is an extension of the Berlin Strings series (Unlike MSS from LASS), I agree maybe OT was not a good example as they do not have loads and loads different lines of string libraries.


It's no more an extension of berlin strings than Ark 1.


----------



## Pianolando

Very fair upgrade pricing and features looks truly amazing. If the sound is there I will buy this for sure!


----------



## maestro2be

I am perfectly happy that it’s 8+8 and 7+7. Between having SCS and LASS 2.5 which will get an upgrade I have enough string sections that are just a little to small for the majority of my needs. Then all the rest I own are ensemble sized. This library section size is exactly what I want. Impossible to please everyone.

I also think the price is fair. I have spent so much more than this on VSL, SCS and HZS (I can keep going). For me the absolutely last thing I am looking for at this point is walkthroughs and demos. I am very excited at this point.

I just also want to add how impressed I always am with how friendly, honest and professional Sebastian and Andrew are. They are literally taking the hits right between the eyes and uppercuts to the jaw and not shaking one bit and lowering themselves. I have never seen either of them in all my years lose their temper or act like children. I really look forward to supporting this company with my money.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Yeah we really get a bit fired up but sebastian here is really a gentleman and andrew too.


----------



## Lazeez

So if MSS doesn't replace LASS, what will the differences between MSS and LASS 3 be besides the way divisi is broken up and the new recordings for MSS?


----------



## Casiquire

Lazeez said:


> So if MSS doesn't replace LASS, what will the differences between MSS and LASS 3 be besides the way divisi is broken up and the new recordings for MSS?


Well those two things are already a huge difference. But look at the articulation list. There's so much more now


----------



## X-Bassist

Kevinside said:


> Yes...I don´t know, how the library sounds... So prices are useless...for me now


Some people in the past have complained that they don’t have time to save money before the intro is over, so I think this is to give people the opportunity to save.

Yet the library may still be going through tweaks, and it’s difficult to do walkthroughs or even demos if there is still some work to be done. Thankfully he knows his stuff and will get it out asap.


----------



## chapbot

I find this hilariously amusing - detailed, extensive list and explanation of features complete with pricing... and no demos lol


----------



## rmak

The reason developers don’t release all details at once or choose to release them at a certain time is probably to maximize profits. This is capitalism after all.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

chapbot said:


> I find this hilariously amusing - detailed, extensive list and explanation of features complete with pricing... and no demos lol


Finishing the products last mile and giving demo writers the time to actually make demos is a thing


----------



## Kevinside

no demos, no buy... its easy...

I mean, performance samples did it right...Vista wasn´t avaible, but there were first demos to listen, what Vista will be... Then pricing was anounced and at last it was released and everybody knew, what Vista is, cause of the Demos...

MSS is different... I read the whole page, but this is all theory without knowing, how it sounds...
I hope, this library is breaking the walls in comparsion to other libraries...,cause if not...then it was a big marketing gag....


----------



## lettucehat

I understand both approaches. If your company's philosophy is to be very upfront about imperfections and you yourself (JB) are both the company and a composer, you might just upload your doodles to give people an idea of how the library sounds. If you're a company that is racing to the finish line and had a bad experience with demos putting people off a major release, you might be more perfectionist before finally releasing demos. Just chill, they should be on the way soon and I think everybody's made their point about demos. No one's asking you to buy the library without hearing it.


----------



## Lazeez

Casiquire said:


> Well those two things are already a huge difference. But look at the articulation list. There's so much more now


True. So I guess my question is more about why someone would buy LASS 3 (when its available) if they can buy the much more complete package that is MSS. Only reasons I can think of is maybe the tone of LASS is more to their liking and/or it is cheaper. 

Agreed with many others, until we hear demos, walkthroughs etc... its not much of a discussion at this point. I have experience with composing official demos for virtual instrument companies and I can tell you that the demos are usually composed, finalized and locked in very well ahead of the time of release (somewhere between a couple of months to up to a year in some situations). The demos aren't revealed until either just before product release or on the day of release. I actually like how Jasper from Performance Samples showcases alpha demos well ahead of release. But that's his choice. At any rate, we'll be hearing demos and seeing YouTube reviews etc.. in about a month or so so its all good


----------



## Wunderhorn

Lazeez said:


> True. So I guess my question is more about why someone would buy LASS 3 (when its available) if they can buy the much more complete package that is MSS.


The way I understand it is LASS 3 would be a more affordable update for previous LASS users who can't make the leap to MSS but still would like to enjoy a better and streamlined interface.


----------



## Lazeez

Wunderhorn said:


> The way I understand it is LASS 3 would be a more affordable update for previous LASS users who can't make the leap to MSS but still would like to enjoy a better and streamlined interface.


Ah, ok, that makes sense.


----------



## yellow_lupine

I have a wet strings library I'd like to layer with the upcoming MSS. Both have the players recorded in the same position but the room is obviously different. Shall I need to worry about the different reverb/ambient? What strategies would you follow?


----------



## Casiquire

yellow_lupine said:


> I have a wet strings library I'd like to layer with the upcoming MSS. Both have the players recorded in the same position but the room is obviously different. Shall I need to worry about the different reverb/ambient? What strategies would you follow?


I think people here make a much bigger deal of it than they need to. I think sometimes less is more. Get the volumes very well matched, get the expression very well matched (so it sounds like the players were able to hear each other), get the positioning and panning matched. If the tails aren't dramatically different (Spitfire Symphonic versus VSL is dramatically different) then i wouldn't even add reverb to the slightly dryer library, just an overall glue reverb and some saturation should do it. If they are dramatically different then I'd try to get a little closer with reverb, but i wouldn't waste too much precious time on it. Our ears are already completely used to hearing things recorded in different spaces and glued together.


----------



## muziksculp

*LASS 3* will be an instant buy for me, given it will be much easier to use, and setup using the new AudioBro Kontakt Engine, that is also being used for MSS. I'm guessing the price will be super attractive for LASS 2.5 owners.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

muziksculp said:


> *LASS 3* will be an instant buy for me, given it will be much easier to use, and setup using the new AudioBro Kontakt Engine, that is also being used for MSS. I'm guessing the price will be super attractive for LASS 2.5 owners.


You sound and look like a fanatic! I am very proud of your faith! It should be nice, but I won't be part of it until I hear real demonstrations first from users. Glory vi-control!


----------



## muziksculp

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> You sound and look like a fanatic! I am very proud of your faith! It should be nice, but I won't be part of it until I hear real demonstrations first from users. Glory vi-control!


No, not a fanatic, especially when it comes to LASS 2.5, I actually don't use it, so I'm really hoping that I can make this library contribute in my template once LASS 3 is released.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette

pawelmorytko said:


> Thing is though, doesn't matter how many articulations, mic positions, of GigaBytes of content a string library has. If you don't think it has a nice tone, or don't think it's usable because of its legato then you wouldn't buy it would you? Personally I don't think I was ever impressed by LASS, or MSB, and I doubt MSS is going to wow me either.


LASS legato is one of the best out there, just so you know...


----------



## maestro2be

I have read this entire thread but now I can't remember, did Sebastian or Andrew state "where" they recorded these strings? I don't necessarily need them to name the exact venue such as "Air Lyndhurst" as an example if they can't/won't, I am just interested in terms of where and how they recorded LASS, is this library recorded in a different venue such as a scoring hall, concert hall, church etc.?


----------



## Casiquire

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> You sound and look like a fanatic! I am very proud of your faith! It should be nice, but I won't be part of it until I hear real demonstrations first from users. Glory vi-control!


You may have misunderstood, we know what LASS3 will sound like, it's the update to LASS2.5. It's a separate product from MSS


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> You may have misunderstood, we know what LASS3 will sound like, it's the update to LASS2.5. It's a separate product from MSS


Yes, he might have been confused about this. Thanks for pointing this out.

*LASS 3* is the updated version of *LASS 2.5* , same samples. we know how it sounds. 

*MSS* is their new Sample Library due end of this month. We don't know how it sounds until they post some demos.


----------



## Eptesicus

I have to admit i am quite excited by this in terms of content.

It basically has everything i want from a strings library - 

Proper divisi
poly legato
lots of round robins
legato for lots of articulations (in the expansion)

However, all this is for nothing if it doesnt sound good. 

If they nail the sound and the legato/expression is up there with CSS/Performance samples stuff then it will be an instant buy.


----------



## muziksculp

I wish I could fast forward time, so we can hear the demos.


----------



## Noeticus

They will sound good. Why? Because they are real recording of real instruments.


----------



## Wunderhorn

I think the only concern about demos being created very late in the game is that making the demos would give their composers the opportunity to report possible bugs and have a few fixed before the initial release, minimizing the dreaded "version 1.0" syndrome.


----------



## Hanu_H

Wunderhorn said:


> I think the only concern about demos being created very late in the game is that making the demos would give their composers the opportunity to report possible bugs and have a few fixed before the initial release, minimizing the dreaded "version 1.0" syndrome.


The way Audiobro does things is totally different to Spitfire, 8Dio, etc. They don't release a lot of libraries, they focus on the ones they make. Testing is always really well done in the version 1.0. I am also sure that the demos are done already, that is just their policy to release demos on the same day as the library.


----------



## lettucehat

Noeticus said:


> They will sound good. Why? Because they are real recording of real instruments.



And that is why I haven't bought anything since Sonic Implants - I just like coming here for the banter.


----------



## VivianaSings

Hanu_H said:


> The way Audiobro does things is totally different to Spitfire, 8Dio, etc. They don't release a lot of libraries, they focus on the ones they make. Testing is always really well done in the version 1.0. I am also sure that the demos are done already, that is just their policy to release demos on the same day as the library.


Yeah, I bought Genesis over black friday and I was kinda surprised that when I downloaded it, it said it was version 1.0. Not too many who get it right out of the gate.


----------



## jbtproductions

I've watched this for a month. I'd like to thank Audiobro for being a vocal part of the upcoming realease. Bravo for that, abuse requested and received. As well as many great questions by the community and surprisingly fast answers.

If this library is half of what LASS is then most will be happy to have it. Let's be honest. How many of us have S**t libraries that we don't use. And let's also be honest about the AMAZING libraries that we also don't use because it's not in our template or even worse, we forgot we had it.

I'm exited about the library and I'm grateful for the discount. I certainly hope and pray that it is better than LASS, which I have gotten my monies worth over and over and OVER again (even if is just layering).

So, if I bet and lose on this, so be it. Then maybe I won't get their next thing... and they KNOW THIS.

-turn on you rig and work on it every day
jbtproductions


----------



## Noc

Cinematic Studio Woodwinds’s release last night just made me all the more antsy to hear some MSS demos …


----------



## Casiquire

I was messing with a Ravel-influenced string effect where there would be a light tremolo performing a slow controlled glissando downward to a specific note then back up, which has a very cool sound, and realized that LASS is one of very few that I have which can accomplish it right in the box thanks to the aleatoric patches. On the Audiobro site it seems as though the only aleatoric patches in MSS are pre-recorded phrases. Are there more freeform patches where the pitch can be made to drift similar to LASS?


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> I was messing with a Ravel-influenced string effect where there would be a light tremolo performing a slow controlled glissando downward to a specific note then back up, which has a very cool sound, and realized that LASS is one of very few that I have which can accomplish it right in the box thanks to the aleatoric patches. On the Audiobro site it seems as though the only aleatoric patches in MSS are pre-recorded phrases. Are there more freeform patches where the pitch can be made to drift similar to LASS?


It looks like MSS gives you both options either using pre-recorded aleatorics or creating your own ones

*Aleatoric*_ – We recorded different chaotic string phrases that harken to horror and tension. Many articulations were recorded up the entire range of the instrument giving you amazing control of creating your own aleatoric compositions. The articulations can be layered or isolated giving you even more variety._


----------



## Noc

Batrawi said:


> *Aleatoric*_ – We recorded different chaotic string phrases that harken to horror and tension. Many articulations were recorded up the entire range of the instrument giving you amazing control of creating your own aleatoric compositions. The articulations can be layered or isolated giving you even more variety._


To clarify – when they talk about recording “up the entire range of the instrument”, does that mean, for instance, that you could do long, slow glisses up/down through more than just a few tones, such as maybe an octave, or even more? ’Cause I’ve been looking for a library that can actually do that (and not force me to stitch together multiple pitch-bended segments that _never_ sound good in the end) for absolute ages. @dxmachina


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

@dxmachina Don't know if these has been answered. Sorry.

What are the section sizes?
Were was it recorded? (Budapest? Or is it a secret like LASS?)
Violin Range: Does the legatos go above the high C we have in LASS?


----------



## Batrawi

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> @dxmachina Don't know if these has been answered. Sorry.
> 
> What are the section sizes?
> Were was it recorded? (Budapest? Or is it a secret like LASS?)
> Violin Range: Does the legatos go above the high C we have in LASS?


For the first 2 points I'm quoting Sebastian from earlier posts:
_-16/14/12/10/8 each split in half and recorded discretely (in situ)...
so: 8+8 / 7+7 / 6+6 / 5+5 / 4+4
-Contracts keep me from answering. Make of that what you will_


----------



## novaburst

Eptesicus said:


> If they nail the sound and the legato/expression is up there with CSS/Performance samples stuff then it will be an instant buy.


The LASS Legato i think is the one in the lead to me, PS are very good also CSS but the difference is PS and CSS feel like the developer has done a great job in making them sound well this may appeal to many, 

The LASS legato feels like its the player performing well thats why i think this type of legato kills them all


----------



## dxmachina

> Are there more freeform patches where the pitch can be made to drift similar to LASS?


Yes, the aleatoric patches in LASS are now a feature that is included in all our more recent releases (Genesis, MSB, and soon MSS). We just call it "Detune" now, but it has all the same features including the discrete settings per divisi. The HUGE advantage it has over what was in LASS is that it can be applied to every articulation.



> low glisses up/down through more than just a few tones, such as maybe an octave, or even more?


We do have a bunch of included recordings that are like this... big long glisses that stretch up and down. We often sampled these starting on tons of different notes to give a starting/ending point as well as a huge variety of these effects. Not sure if they'll meet your exact use case, but the aleatoric are pretty varied and are going to be extremely useful IMO.



> Violin Range: Does the legatos go above the high C we have in LASS


Yes, for Violins in MSS you can play up to F.

First video/audio content will be dropping imminently.


----------



## Casiquire

dxmachina said:


> Yes, the aleatoric patches in LASS are now a feature that is included in all our more recent releases (Genesis, MSB, and soon MSS). We just call it "Detune" now, but it has all the same features including the discrete settings per divisi. The HUGE advantage it has over what was in LASS is that it can be applied to every articulation.
> 
> 
> We do have a bunch of included recordings that are like this... big long glisses that stretch up and down. We often sampled these starting on tons of different notes to give a starting/ending point as well as a huge variety of these effects. Not sure if they'll meet your exact use case, but the aleatoric are pretty varied and are going to be extremely useful IMO.
> 
> 
> Yes, for Violins in MSS you can play up to F.
> 
> First video/audio content will be dropping imminently.


Amazing news all around. So if I'm understanding correctly, aleatoric isn't a patch of its own, it's an effect that can be added on to any patch and then it works similarly to LASS. Love it! And I'm excited to hear it.


----------



## lettucehat

"Aleatoric" tremolo, sul pont, trills, even marteles? Godsend and possibly saves on having to get some aleatoric/effects libraries...


----------



## muziksculp

Regarding *LASS 3*. Can we expect it during Q1-2021 ? 

Any additional improvements/features added to LASS 3 besides it will be using the new Player ? 

Thanks.


----------



## lettucehat

Major news: audiobro.com is now my first autofill suggestion in Chrome after typing "au". Sorry audiodeluxe.


----------



## Casiquire

lettucehat said:


> Major news: audiobro.com is now my first autofill suggestion in Chrome after typing "au". Sorry audiodeluxe.


The same thing happened to me haha


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> Regarding *LASS 3*. Can we expect it during Q1-2021 ?


If my memory serves me well, Sebast. already mentioned somewhere here that it's expected by end of year.


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> If my memory serves me well, Sebast. already mentioned somewhere here that it's expected by end of year.


Ouch.. End of 2021, why so late ?  

I was hoping it will be released much sooner. I hope that is not the case.


----------



## FKVStudio

Hello everyone. I'm really looking forward to hearing the MSS demos since the rest of the features that @dxmachina has named seem very good to me.

Abusing your presence here a bit, I would like to ask you, beyond this library that you are about to launch, could you tell us about a possible Audiobro roadmap for the future? I mean, beyond LASS 3 at the end of the year, do you plan to launch libraries of Woodwinds, Percussion ..... adult choir, etc.?

A cordial greeting to all.


----------



## Casiquire

FKVStudio said:


> Hello everyone. I'm really looking forward to hearing the MSS demos since the rest of the features that @dxmachina has named seem very good to me.
> 
> Abusing your presence here a bit, I would like to ask you, beyond this library that you are about to launch, could you tell us about a possible Audiobro roadmap for the future? I mean, beyond LASS 3 at the end of the year, do you plan to launch libraries of Woodwinds, Percussion ..... adult choir, etc.?
> 
> A cordial greeting to all.


They like to play things close to the chest but I'd love to know too


----------



## muziksculp

Any specific reason/s why LASS 3 will be released end of this year, and not earlier, given it's not a new library, but rather a re-housing of LASS 2.5 ?


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Any specific reason/s why LASS 3 will be released end of this year, and not earlier, given it's not a new library, but rather a re-housing of LASS 2.5 ?


Because at Audiobro, slow and steady wins the race! And the new player has been out for years at this point, so we could have asked that same question six months ago, and last year, and the year before... I'm sure new libraries are higher priority for them.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Because at Audiobro, slow and steady wins the race! And the new player has been out for years at this point, so we could have asked that same question six months ago, and last year, and the year before... I'm sure new libraries are higher priority for them.


I see. I just wish LASS 3 could have been released much earlier this year. Oh well, I just have to wait. 

I wonder if AudioBro will be relasing any new libraries this year besides MSS, and LASS 3 ? Which might be the reason they are delaying the release of LASS 3.


----------



## lettucehat

michaelscottitshappening.gif


----------



## Marco_D

First video walkthrough now available.









Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro


Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.



audiobro.com


----------



## muziksculp

The Streaming of the video is not that great. Keep stopping every few seconds.

OH. I changed he resolution to 1080, streaming much better now.


----------



## lettucehat

Hmm... ya think they worked on the out-of-the-box sound a bit?  Really impressed. Hope that in a real-life scenario this engine is also pretty good at stringing together several intervals, for example to make Glass-like arpeggios.


----------



## coprhead6

Whelp, this sounds incredible. 
I do need to hear more fast ostinatos and smooth transitions between chords before I'm totally blown away


----------



## muziksculp

Very cool Ostinato Engine, Can the sound of the section playing the ostinato be edited to give a bit more grit if needed, basically change the character of the sound, i.e. attack of the bows on the strings, ..etc. ? is that done via Dynamics Control ?


----------



## Jaap

It's really amazing what they are creating with this engine in Kontakt, a big bravo!

And of course it sounds really really nice!


----------



## muziksculp

Just listening to the Ostinato Video, I can hear that MSS has Great String Timbre ! 

This was my main concern, so I'm very happy. Looking forward to more Videos, and Demos of MSS


----------



## Noeticus

I have had LASS 2.5 for a long time, and it has always been one of my favorites because of tone and divisi. And, now MSS sounds like the wait has been more than worth it. MSS, so far, sounds fantastic! Top notch.

Congratulation to all at AudioBro!!!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Sounds beautiful, and impressed by the very clear interface. Everything just makes sense in this ostinato engine. Waiting for more videos


----------



## Tinesaeriel

...

...Gosh darnit, am I _really_ gonna be getting _another _string library?

Maybe.

We'll see; I'll wait to see how it handles legato in future videos. But I've definitely got my eye on this one now.


----------



## Marco_D

Tinesaeriel said:


> Gosh darnit, am I _really_ gonna be getting _another _string library?


Yeah, in recent weeks/months I resisted Berlin Symphonic, Vista, Nashville Scoring Strings and Synchron Pro (and I feel I'm forgetting something else), all to bet on this one. It'd better be great!


----------



## Sovereign

Way too much verb on that demo.


----------



## borisb2

oh..
my..
god...

just a few seconds of that video - and I'm not even talking about the ostinato engine but just that lush, silky sound - it sold me already. Out of this world silky/lush/realisitic/perfect amount of vibrato/etc. .. Can't wait to listen to more videos.

If legatos, shorts etc. are as good as these first impressions - this library will shoot into my template and kick pretty much every other string-library out. Incredible..


----------



## borisb2

Sovereign said:


> Way too much verb on that demo.


cant wait to listen to a walkthrough where they show the mic positions


----------



## muziksculp

I noticed there is a *Tonality* Parameter showing on the interface. So, I'm guessing it is/possible to change the timbre/character of the strings. Looking forward to know more about this detail in future videos. 

There is also a *Brightness* knob to tweak the timbre to taste.


----------



## José Herring

Sounds great. Another string library going on to my list for 2021.


----------



## muziksculp

Sovereign said:


> Way too much verb on that demo.


Maybe too much of the hall mic in the mix. I don't think it's a verb.


----------



## muziksculp

LASS 3 should be so nice to use with this very nice modern GUI compared to the old LASS 2.5 player.


----------



## borisb2

muziksculp said:


> LASS 3 should be so nice to use with this very nice modern GUI compared to the old LASS 2.5 player.


but what will you be doing with your BSS?


----------



## Eptesicus

It does sound nice. However the ostinato engine is more limited than i thought (unless the video only showed a small bit of it).

As i understand it though, it can only do one interval effectively. Is that right? So just up, down, up, down, up down?

So if i wanted a broken triad ostinato (ie so i play a triad on the leyboard), would it then play all three notes in sequence (up and down)?


----------



## dgburns

Oh ye of little faith!

I did tell ya’ll not to worry so much.


----------



## muziksculp

borisb2 said:


> but what will you be doing with your BSS?


I'm very happy with BSS, MSS will be another String library I have besides many others 

When it comes to String Libraries ... There is no limit to how many you need, use, or buy.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Sounds great. Nice to see some innovation (similar to Spitfire Symphonic Motions). Spitfire, VSL, AudioBros, (and hopefully EastWest) - bringing the heat in 2021 I think. That's where I'll put my money.


----------



## CT

Well, so far, I think I want it. Damn....


----------



## Hanu_H

Sounds really great. And seems like it's Audiobro quality all the way. This might be the one to replace LASS in my template. 😍


----------



## N.Caffrey

Very nice!


----------



## Pianolando

Beautiful sound and very cool and inventive obstinate engine! Really got my hopes up!


----------



## muziksculp

Next Video Please


----------



## Craig Sharmat

muziksculp said:


> Maybe too much of the hall mic in the mix. I don't think it's a verb.


The close mic will work nicely for that or a combo.


----------



## pawelmorytko

I always find it useful to see what you can achieve with the libraries you have already before buying a new one. This only took a couple of minutes and no frustration or fighting with the samples. MSS does sound like it has some cool features, but sometimes you need to check what you've got already to resist the GAS. Looking forward to another video though!


----------



## Beans

pawelmorytko said:


> I always find it useful to see what you can achieve with the libraries you have already before buying a new one. This only took a couple of minutes and no frustration or fighting with the samples. MSS does sound like it has some cool features, but sometimes you need to check what you've got already to resist the GAS. Looking forward to another video though!


Now at double speed! Go!


----------



## node01

Will they discontinue and remove their LASS 2.5 after releasing the MSS?


----------



## Toecutter

It's certainly different than LASS! Good!

Of all features from that long list they had to start by showing the one I was the least hyped about XD Next video please.


----------



## Beans

Hanu_H said:


> Sounds really great. And seems like it's Audiobro quality all the way. This might be the one to replace LASS in my template. 😍


I don't know much about LASS. Isn't it quite different from the this, especially in tone? How would it outright replace it?


----------



## Toecutter

Beans said:


> I don't know much about LASS. Isn't it quite different from the this, especially in tone? How would it outright replace it?


Based on the ostinato demo it's night and day different from LASS! That harsh dry tone that some love and some hate is the exact opposite in MSS. The room is very different and so is the tone. I think LASS and MSS will happily coexist and complement each other.


----------



## VivianaSings

Pianolando said:


> Beautiful sound and very cool and inventive obstinate engine! Really got my hopes up!


So basically you hold a chord and and it refuses to play it?


----------



## lettucehat

VivianaSings said:


> So basically you hold a chord and and it refuses to play it?


This deserves more than a like. bravo.


----------



## jamwerks

New video


----------



## sourcefor

Can’t wait to get this....my new goto!


----------



## NothingToHide

Beans said:


> Now at double speed! Go!


If I look into all of my Orchestral Tools string libraries I got multiple options and several different tempi. That is not the problem. But these all sound like 8th notes. You can surely manipulate the timing to triplets or other tuplets, but having experimented with these kinds of articulations quite a lot - it never really sounds like that! Triplets have a different bowing and flow. I don't think this ostinato articulation is very flexible. It surely is nice to have and sound pretty good, but I didn't hear anything there I cannot already do with the things I have.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

pawelmorytko said:


> I always find it useful to see what you can achieve with the libraries you have already before buying a new one. This only took a couple of minutes and no frustration or fighting with the samples. MSS does sound like it has some cool features, but sometimes you need to check what you've got already to resist the GAS. Looking forward to another video though!


This is way more effective at demonstrating the benefits of MSS since this sounds nothing like Ostinatos IMO. More like sustain pads.. 
I think it's gonna take hours to make most libraries come close to the MSS ostinatos.


----------



## Toecutter

NothingToHide said:


> but I didn't here anything there I cannot already do with the things I have.


Ain't that true for almost every new library out there? The only exception I can think of being Birth of the trumpet. I'm still very interested in hearing more from MSS, we barely heard what it can do.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

DarkestShadow said:


> This is way more effective at demonstrating the benefits of MSS since this sounds nothing like Ostinatos IMO. More like sustain pads..
> I think it's gonna take hours to make most libraries come close to the MSS ostinatos.


Yeah I generally think of ostinatos often having shorter notes, that said I can't think of another library that does this, well there are phrase libs but nothing to this depth.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Craig Sharmat said:


> Yeah I generally think of ostinatos often having shorter notes, that said I can't think of another library that does this, well there are phrase libs but nothing to this depth.


Apart from Symphonic Motions from Spitfire, I agree. This one is more flexible though in terms of the options.


----------



## NothingToHide

Toecutter said:


> Ain't that true for almost every new library out there? The only exception I can think of being Birth of the trumpet. I'm still very interested in hearing more from MSS, we barely heard what it can do.


That is true, of course! And I didn't say I am not interested in MSS. It sounds nice! I just don't think the ostinatos are a real revolution. I preferred the BSS playable RR-legato which is more flexible. For this library, I am much more interested in how the legatos and shorts sound.


----------



## Casiquire

Well this sounds amazing to me. Libraries truly do struggle with this. I wonder about some things though: three seem to be phrases, not stitched transitions. As such i imagine that means you can't play it in note for note, which is fine, but if you keyswitch back to standard legato do you get a nice transition between the ostinato and the standard playing? LASS does something similar with the trills and trems. Also I'm hoping this is a more ambient mic?

Anyway I'm eager for more!


----------



## Casiquire

NothingToHide said:


> That is true, of course! And I didn't say I am not interested in MSS. It sounds nice! I just don't think the ostinatos are a real revolution. I preferred the BSS playable RR-legato which is more flexible. For this library, I am much more interested in how the legatos and shorts sound.


The BSS legato sounds vastly inferior to this, I'm sorry to say


----------



## Pablocrespo

I would like sometimes to be able to play those kinds of lines and orchestrate them one by one, and get a realistic sound. This was exactly what I asked Sebastian and Andrew. I do like the ostinato engine, and think it´s ahead of everyone, but would love to be able to play those kinds of moving lines.


----------



## pawelmorytko

DarkestShadow said:


> This is way more effective at demonstrating the benefits of MSS since this sounds nothing like Ostinatos IMO. More like sustain pads..
> I think it's gonna take hours to make most libraries come close to the MSS ostinatos.


I'm sure it is a super handy tool, especially for instantaneous results, but unless my ears are missing something, you could easily recreate this well enough yourself - sure it might not satisfy everyone, but to me it sounds good enough really.


----------



## muziksculp

Craig Sharmat said:


> Yeah I generally think of ostinatos often having shorter notes, that said I can't think of another library that does this, well there are phrase libs but nothing to this depth.


Same here, so the ostinato option in MSS can't produce the fast short articulated with more bow-attack Ostinatos, i.e. the ones we hear in action scenes using spicc. or staccatissimo shorts, but it rather delivers the more fluid/gentler type of Ostinati. I'm just guessing, since the video didn't show the former type.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

pawelmorytko said:


> I'm sure it is a super handy tool, especially for instantaneous results, but unless my ears are missing something, you could easily recreate this well enough yourself - sure it might not satisfy everyone, but to me it sounds good enough really.


Which library are you using?


----------



## Toecutter

pawelmorytko said:


> I'm sure it is a super handy tool, especially for instantaneous results, but unless my ears are missing something, you could easily recreate this well enough yourself - sure it might not satisfy everyone, but to me it sounds good enough really.


I know if you put more work you will achieve a better result but since we are comparing, MSS is far superior in doing the ostinati thing at least to my ears. Pay close attention to the lower dynamics, in MSS you can hear the detail in every single note, no matter how faint they are. Your attempt while great is very muddy compared to MSS' clarity and separation.


----------



## davidanthony

pawelmorytko said:


> I'm sure it is a super handy tool, especially for instantaneous results, but unless my ears are missing something, you could easily recreate this well enough yourself - sure it might not satisfy everyone, but to me it sounds good enough really.


I hear more dynamic movement in the MSS version. (Almost too much at points, e.g. solo violas at 2:56 in the video -- almost like the engine is using some kind of compression to achieve this?)

I don't think features like this are reason _alone_ to buy the library, but there's no harm in trying something out and then programming it a different way if you want to hear it differently. I appreciate the options!


----------



## NothingToHide

Casiquire said:


> The BSS legato sounds vastly inferior to this, I'm sorry to say


Don't be sorry, I am not!  I don't agree with vastly and I'd trade the flexibility you gain for the slight edge in sound.


----------



## Casiquire

NothingToHide said:


> Don't be sorry, I am not!  I don't agree with vastly and I'd trade the flexibility you gain for the slight edge in sound.


You have the ability to just play regular legato notes with MSS too. I see little to no improvement over that old fashioned method with BSS's legato anyway.


----------



## ansthenia

davidanthony said:


> I hear more dynamic movement in the MSS version. (Almost too much at points, e.g. solo violas at 2:56 in the video -- almost like the engine is using some kind of compression to achieve this?)


Just regular modwheel dynamics movement. You can see the dynamics fader moving.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> The BSS legato sounds vastly inferior to this, I'm sorry to say


Did they post MSS Legato demos/videos ? I didn't hear them. 

How are we judging here ? or are you referring to the Ostinatos ?


----------



## pawelmorytko

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Which library are you using?


That one's a weird blend of CSS, CSSS, and CS2 that I have in my template 


Toecutter said:


> I know if you put more work you will achieve a better result but since we are comparing, MSS is far superior in doing the ostinati thing at least to my ears. Pay close attention to the lower dynamics, in MSS you can hear the detail in every single note, no matter how faint they are. Your attempt while great is very muddy compared to MSS' clarity and separation.


Yeah I agree, I also prefer the MSS version at lower dynamics actually 


davidanthony said:


> I hear more dynamic movement in the MSS version. (Almost too much at points, e.g. solo violas at 2:56 in the video -- almost like the engine is using some kind of compression to achieve this?)
> 
> I don't think features like this are reason _alone_ to buy the library, but there's no harm in trying something out and then programming it a different way if you want to hear it differently. I appreciate the options!


I do like the idea of it, I think it will also be a great time saver, I just hope it will also be quite flexible otherwise I'd be worried of overusing the same sound over and over again...

But really, I'm just looking for reasons why not to buy this library and stop spending my money


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Did they post MSS Legato demos/videos ? I didn't hear them.
> 
> How are we judging here ? or are you referring to the Ostinatos ?


Referring to the ostinatos being a trade off with flexibility. There will be standard legato patches as well.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Referring to the ostinatos being a trade off with flexibility. There will be standard legato patches as well.


I see. 

Actually, with Andrew's experience, I'm quite confident that MSS Legatos will be wonderful, very smooth, and realistic. I also think OT-BSS will be updated with some very nice improvements, and possibly new features.


----------



## NothingToHide

Casiquire said:


> You have the ability to just play regular legato notes with MSS too. I see little to no improvement over that old fashioned method with BSS's legato anyway.


You clearly hear the RR legato transitions preventing a machine gun effect when you compare it to regular legatos. Of course I know MSS has got legatos. What I really meant is I prefer a playable ostinato patch over looped intervals.


----------



## Casiquire

NothingToHide said:


> You clearly hear the RR legato transitions preventing a machine gun effect when you compare it to regular legatos. Of course I know MSS has got legatos. What I really meant is I prefer a playable ostinato patch over looped intervals.


If you are that bothered by RRs in a passage like this (keeping in mind that by having divisi sections you can shift timing and dynamics between sections and avoid a lot of machine gun sounds in the first place like I've been doing with LASS for years) but you don't hear how much more natural these recorded phrases sound then I really don't know what to tell you! It's like night and day to me.

I'm a huge OT fan and was very excited about the RR legato feature, until i heard it. It's kind of disappointing.


----------



## NothingToHide

🙄


----------



## muziksculp

Talking about Ostinati, listen to this track titled 'Willpower' , by composer Steve Mazzaro from the movie 'The Rhythm Section', it's a fantastic sounding, high-energy track using lots of short string articulations.

I would love to be able to have these type of shorts in MSS for Ostinati and much more.


----------



## lettucehat

That's Ben Osterhouse String Flow to an absolute T, haha.


----------



## nickhmusic

muziksculp said:


> Talking about Ostinati, listen to this track titled 'Willpower' , by composer Steve Mazzaro from the movie 'The Rhythm Section', it's a fantastic sounding, high-energy track using lots of short string articulations.
> 
> I would love to be able to have these type of shorts in MSS for Ostinati and much more.



thanks for the introduction to this piece, wow.


----------



## maestro2be

Well, there goes my money for sure. I think they sound great. Very different and complimenting sound compared to LASS. Very excited to get my hands on these.


----------



## coprhead6

I used every ounce of willpower to skip Afflatus.... Then I used every ounce of willpower to skip BSS....
This might just be the one 

Those slurred ostinatos will pair nicely with Berlin Woodwinds measured trills.


----------



## Gingerbread

The ostinatos generally sound really nice, but I'm wondering what people think about the violas, when they play by themselves at 2:57? Am I the only one who thinks they sound a little...boxy? Especially as compared to the violins, which were played just prior?


----------



## constaneum

boxy or woody?


----------



## Rctec

muziksculp said:


> Talking about Ostinati, listen to this track titled 'Willpower' , by composer Steve Mazzaro from the movie 'The Rhythm Section', it's a fantastic sounding, high-energy track using lots of short string articulations.
> 
> I would love to be able to have these type of shorts in MSS for Ostinati and much more.



That wasn’t samples! That was our friend Ben Powell, Virtuoso! And he can play in time!



muziksculp said:


> Talking about Ostinati, listen to this track titled 'Willpower' , by composer Steve Mazzaro from the movie 'The Rhythm Section', it's a fantastic sounding, high-energy track using lots of short string articulations.
> 
> I would love to be able to have these type of shorts in MSS for Ostinati and much more.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Rctec said:


> That wasn’t samples! That was our friend Ben Powell, Virtuoso! And he can play in time!



Beautiful piece. Love how it builds


----------



## muziksculp

Rctec said:


> That wasn’t samples! That was our friend Ben Powell, Virtuoso! And he can play in time!



Hi @Rctec,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, it surely didn't sound like samples.  and I Didin't know about Ben Powell, and his Virtuosic Violin playing. Thanks for introducing me to his talent, and this wonderful track. 

It also amazes me how much a very good string soloist can enhance a sampled string track, adding so much more life, expression, and color to a purely sample based track. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## davidanthony

Gingerbread said:


> The ostinatos generally sound really nice, but I'm wondering what people think about the violas, when they play by themselves at 2:57? Am I the only one who thinks they sound a little...boxy? Especially as compared to the violins, which were played just prior?


I mentioned the same time stamp a few posts back. They definitely sound off to me... Someone said it's just the dynamics and you can see the wheel going (I was listening with my eyes closed as I usually do) but to my ears they sounded strange, almost like they were being squashed by a compressor.


----------



## Pianolando

VivianaSings said:


> So basically you hold a chord and and it refuses to play it?



Hahaha, good one! My autocorrect evidently needs to learn more musical words!


----------



## coprhead6

Gingerbread said:


> The ostinatos generally sound really nice, but I'm wondering what people think about the violas, when they play by themselves at 2:57? Am I the only one who thinks they sound a little...boxy? Especially as compared to the violins, which were played just prior?



Friendly neighborhood violist here:
The dynamic crossfade is quite sudden at the top of the crescendo. This brings our attention to something being off, and then the chord change is a bit awkward (the timing feels slightly wrong, or it's the scripting). The decrescendo also has some obvious crossfading. 
The violins and celli seem more polished. I'm sure they can tweak some things and it'll be great. Viola is always an afterthought


----------



## GNP

Gingerbread said:


> The ostinatos generally sound really nice, but I'm wondering what people think about the violas, when they play by themselves at 2:57? Am I the only one who thinks they sound a little...boxy? Especially as compared to the violins, which were played just prior?


Nothing alittle EQ can't fix.


----------



## Batrawi

GNP said:


> Nothing alittle EQ can't fix.


This.
Also sometimes the onboard reverb can be the cause of that "boxy" sound. Switching it off is often a better starting point.


----------



## MrCambiata

First video sounds amazing, exactly what I'm looking for. Can't wait for the rest


----------



## Batrawi

VivianaSings said:


> So basically you hold a chord and and it refuses to play it?


actually you play some chords and it will play Vista's teaser demo😁


----------



## ProfoundSilence

coprhead6 said:


> Those slurred ostinatos will pair nicely with Berlin Woodwinds measured trills.


expansion E for berlin strings also has the measured trills, albiet only for violin I II and celli.


----------



## Sovereign

Just listened again with fresh ears, but I am not liking the example at 8:20, full of artifacts and what seems to be phasing.


----------



## lettucehat

I mean... it seems clear that they are pushing the limits of the engine in that example. It's extremely time-stretched. I'm not sure they should have included it in the demonstration because it obviously doesn't sound 100% right, but to me it's a good sign that it still sounds pretty good when forcing it play unreasonably fast.


----------



## Hanu_H

Beans said:


> I don't know much about LASS. Isn't it quite different from the this, especially in tone? How would it outright replace it?


LASS has been the backbone of my string sound from when it was released. I will always use it for sure, but I think MSS will be easier and faster to work with. There is so many nice features and articulations that LASS don't have, well it is a really old library. But I hope that LASS 3 will be awesome as well. I am pretty sure that MSS will do the heavy lifting for me now on.


----------



## Christof

Rctec said:


> That wasn’t samples! That was our friend Ben Powell, Virtuoso! And he can play in time!



He's playing through a Kemper right?
I just bought myself a NS Design Cello and a Kemper Profiler, discovering new worlds now.
Endless possibilities.


----------



## Batrawi

Sovereign said:


> but I am not liking the example at 8:20


agree. I bet everyone didn't like it as well, but I think they demonstrated this on purpose to give us an idea about the library's limitation (by pushing it over its limits). Still the library seems to manage this abuse better than most other libraries, unless the ostinato was originally played and recorded at a high speed.


----------



## novaburst

Sovereign said:


> Way too much verb on that demo.



one thing about AB is they have the EQ and reverb on as default with there product, wish they would not do that as you can forget that its on.

non the less so far so good


----------



## karender

What if they edit those ostinato transitions and gave us a playable RR legato? Same thing goes for the runs too. Maybe in the future updates? or maybe they already did ?


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

pawelmorytko said:


> I'm sure it is a super handy tool, especially for instantaneous results, but unless my ears are missing something, you could easily recreate this well enough yourself - sure it might not satisfy everyone, but to me it sounds good enough really.


This one is closer, somewhat close.. but it's easier because it's pretty smooth and in and of itself washy low dynamic stuff with lots of notes to cover each other up. 
There were many passages in the video that are much more defined and won't be possible to challenge with samples. 
As always, some passages work nicely with normal samples, others suck.


----------



## Casiquire

coprhead6 said:


> Viola is always an afterthought


Eh, usually not with Audiobro! The viola was a highlight of LASS and the sordino expansion


----------



## novaburst

https://www.dropbox.com/l/AAA-2ih7jRM22_PDg7tUfVd0cXj6dgkapHIHere is a little snippet i did of one of my favourite amines just the intro, no timing or quantize very bare and naked no massage, still i do try my best its kind of laughable but i am not at a great level at this stuff


*Main purpose:*
There is a kind of ostinato in it i know its bad but can you tell me how bad and can you guess what library i used

What i would really like to see in MSS is great playability and i am hoping they left the best demos till last

The tone is there and i like it.


----------



## dgburns

Christof said:


> He's playing through a Kemper right?
> I just bought myself a NS Design Cello and a Kemper Profiler, discovering new worlds now.
> Endless possibilities.



I remember when I bought my Kemper, it was either Kemper or Fractal, and so glad I actually made the right choice. The Kemper has been updated so much, it has really evolved. The Effects are fantastic, you would really have alot of possibilites playing around with the pitchshifting. It is really smooth. I’ve done a fair bit of profiling, and there are also some really great ‘bass’ profiles that might work with cello.

With a cello ( and your skills ) and a kemper, one could compose some pretty spectacular scores just with that alone. I did one series with one strat, one custom fender amp profile, an ebow and a kemper. Trippy stuff.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I ran ark 3 through my darkglass bk7 ultra once, sounded pretty wild


----------



## JTB

Dude says "MSS fixed all that for you by recording beautiful back and forth 8th note legato ostinatos".
He didn't say programmed, he said recorded. As in these are pre recorded phrases. 
1:07


----------



## muziksculp

Christof said:


> He's playing through a Kemper right?
> I just bought myself a NS Design Cello and a Kemper Profiler, discovering new worlds now.
> Endless possibilities.


Hi @Christof,

Interesting. What makes you think he is playing the violin through a Kemper ? 

I'm guessing you mean the electric violin he is playing in the beginning of the video. 

I noticed he is playing an electric Violin, looks like a Yamaha model at the beginning of the video, then switches to an acoustic violin. 

Oh.. and Thanks for mentioning NS Design Cello, these NS Design String Instruments look pretty cool. I don't have a Kemper modeling amp, but hear a lot of great things about it. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## lettucehat

JTB said:


> Dude says "MSS fixed all that for you by recording beautiful back and forth 8th note legato ostinatos".
> He didn't say programmed, he said recorded. As in these are pre recorded phrases.
> 1:07



This seems obvious and uncontroversial...? What else would you expect from holding down keys and why would you prefer stitched-together, programmed phrases instead?


----------



## Christof

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Christof,
> 
> Interesting. What makes you think he is playing the violin through a Kemper ?
> 
> I'm guessing you mean the electric violin he is playing in the beginning of the video.
> 
> I noticed he is playing an electric Violin, looks like a Yamaha model at the beginning of the video, then switches to an acoustic violin.
> 
> Oh.. and Thanks for mentioning NS Design Cello, these NS Design String Instruments look pretty cool. I don't have a Kemper modeling amp, but hear a lot of great things about it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I think at the beginning of the clip I hear that Kemper sound, pretty sure he uses one of those patches, those harmonic things, you can do the craziest sounds with this thing, very deep vast drones, very subtle things as well, love it so far and I am pretty sure that it will find a place in one of my next scores.
The NS Cello is super cool, I have a 5 string model with an additional high E string.
Although i am a professional cellist i still have to learn how to handle this new instrument.
My very first test recording sounds like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t56pbeh3ao2urx3/Kemper_test1.mp3?dl=0
But all this is quite off topic


----------



## muziksculp

Christof said:


> I think at the beginning of the clip I hear that Kemper sound, pretty sure he uses one of those patches, those harmonic things, you can do the craziest sounds with this thing, very deep vast drones, very subtle things as well, love it so far and I am pretty sure that it will find a place in one of my next scores.
> The NS Cello is super cool, I have a 5 string model with an additional high E string.
> Although i am a professional cellist i still have to learn how to handle this new instrument.
> My very first test recording sounds like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t56pbeh3ao2urx3/Kemper_test1.mp3?dl=0
> But all this is quite off topic


Hi @Christof,

Thanks for the feedback, and Kemper test track. Sounds very nice. I don't have a Kemper Modeling Amp, but I'm quite interested to see if it would be useful for my needs. 

Yes, I realize this is off topic. So, back to discussing AudioBro's MSS  

I might PM you if I have more questions about the Kemper or NS Instruments. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Casiquire

lettucehat said:


> This seems obvious and uncontroversial...? What else would you expect from holding down keys and why would you prefer stitched-together, programmed phrases instead?


Right? Lol but i think people want the flexibility and convenience of it


----------



## Raphioli

lettucehat said:


> This seems obvious and uncontroversial...? What else would you expect from holding down keys and why would you prefer stitched-together, programmed phrases instead?


I agree. Not sure what's wrong. Pre-recorded ostinatos have been mentioned on their website since last year.
And like ProfoundSilence has said, Berlin Strings Expansion has it too.

Maybe it wasn't the type of walkthrough some people expected as a first walkthrough, hence the reaction.
It is kind of short and only focuses on one feature though, compared to other sample devs.

I personally was expecting a video showing various articulations (not phrases but multisamples) included in the library, so we could listen to the sound of how each articulation sounds for each section.
I guess Audiobro likes to release it bits by bits.

I'm assuming the next video will be about "Smart Automatic Scale Runs".
But I'm personally hoping they would cover "Variable Attack Control Sustains" next (and legatos of the individual sections within the same video).
I basically want to listen to the multisample part of the library than another phrase part of the library, imho.

I understand they want to promote the playability-features though.


----------



## gjelul

This will be a very nice library, and especially at the intro / loyalty price.
At the moment, I am not sure about the sound - sounds a bit too soft and with no 'bite.'
Too early for an opinion, looking forward to the rest of the walkthroughs.


----------



## Beans

Raphioli said:


> Maybe it wasn't the type of walkthrough some people expected as a first walkthrough, hence the reaction.
> It is kind of short and only focuses on one feature though, compared to other sample devs.
> 
> I personally was expecting a video showing various articulations (not phrases but multisamples) included in the library, so we could listen to the sound of how each articulation sounds for each section.


My gut tells me that you're right. It's a minor issue, but possibly spot on. Individiual artics and dynamics are more important to a lot of people than an ostinato feature, and those people will be vocal.


----------



## Minsky

I'm looking forward to MSS. I bought LASS Full purely so that I could get the 'deep discount' on MSS. Hmmm... maybe I expected too much, it doesn't feel so deep. I'd have been better off not buying LASS and just getting the promo discount.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

I think we should all just wait a little and hear all the demos before determining too much from part of the library


----------



## Beans

Minsky said:


> I'm looking forward to MSS. I bought LASS Full purely so that I could get the 'deep discount' on MSS. Hmmm... maybe I expected too much, it doesn't feel so deep. I'd have been better off not buying LASS and just getting the promo discount.


What makes you think this, at this early point?


----------



## Raphioli

Paul Jelfs said:


> I think we should all just wait a little and hear all the demos before determining too much from part of the library


I agree. Its definitely too early to judge just by an ostinato video.
But I also get it if people are a bit frustrated.

The library was delayed a month, I think it was because of paper work(?).
If it was just paperwork, the walkthroughs probably are already ready, since they initially planned to released it last year. (Unless the delay was also because of demos/walkthrough not being ready in time)

Its already mid-Jan and a single walkthrough makes me a bit worried.
Hope MSS doesn't get pushed back to February or something.

BTW, sorry if my post sounded like complaining.


----------



## Wunderhorn

It looks like sound-wise we are off to a good start.

Now, regarding the ostinati - I love what I see, especially the "as played". Quite frankly I don't care so much about all the automated stuff, I'd rather stay in full control over the voices I am writing.

Now, can we please see/hear those ostinati with spiccato? And please at lowest and then at the highest dynamic so we can hear what scope it covers?


----------



## Noeticus

I can't wait to use the DETUNE knob.


----------



## lettucehat

Yeah the Vista rollout was eye-opening, really highlighted for me that no matter how deliberate you are in explaining to people exactly what you are showing them (early/rough audio, video of one particular feature), they won't see the forest from the trees - "is that it?" I guess Audiobro is rolling things out at a pre-planned one video per day (or so) pace, focusing on the features they think are most interesting, and stretching the rollout to get buzz going. Whether that's better than the CSW "drop the bomb all at once but until then get hourly emails from VI-C users" approach is hard to say.


----------



## Casiquire

Minsky said:


> I'm looking forward to MSS. I bought LASS Full purely so that I could get the 'deep discount' on MSS. Hmmm... maybe I expected too much, it doesn't feel so deep. I'd have been better off not buying LASS and just getting the promo discount.


If you own LASS+LS, you get 550 off of MSS Full, which is literally more than it costs to get LASS+LS. At first glance i was hoping it would be a bigger discount too, but truth be told, they're practically giving away LASS to people who buy both


----------



## chapbot

Beans said:


> My gut tells me that you're right. It's a minor issue, but possibly spot on. Individiual artics and dynamics are more important to a lot of people than an ostinato feature, and those people will be vocal.


Audiobro doesn't release walkthroughs, but when they do, they cover things nobody cares about ♥️


----------



## chapbot

Raphioli said:


> Its already mid-Jan and a single walkthrough makes me a bit worried.
> Hope MSS doesn't get pushed back to February or something.


As I said about 20 pages ago, please don't hold your breath regarding a release date from this company. Also note I'm an Audiobro fanboy, have used LASS for 10 years as my main library and will buy MSS the day of release (hopefully by 2023) unless legato walkthrough sucks.


----------



## Vita Et Musica

Sounds really handy... and like the tip of the iceberg. Seems really nice so far. As a LASS full owner, I'll definitely grab it at a generous discount.


----------



## muziksculp

Looking forward to the next MSS video/s . 

Maybe tomorrow ?


----------



## composingkeys

Is MSS "LASS 3"?


----------



## Vik

I wonder if MSS can do stuff like this.


----------



## wilifordmusic

No. It's a new library with new recorded samples. LASS 3 will be the old LASS 2.5 packaged in the new player/GUI. And don't expect LASS 3 for a while.

Sorry Vik, my post was for composingkeys question.

But, very nice composition and mix. Did you cook up your own string sound, use one of the stage/color presets, or stay with the default sound and stay in the lower velocity/mod wheel range?

Steve


----------



## Vik

wilifordmusic said:


> Did you cook up your own string sound, use one of the stage/color presets, or stay with the default sound and stay in the lower velocity/mod wheel range?


Hi, that YT-clip isn't mine, but one of the tracks I've come across which almost have made buy LASS. The little I've heard of MSS so far is quite wet, which is why I'm curious about how good it is at emulating stuff like this.
Since there's a discount for LASS users who want to buy MSS... has there been mentioned anything anywhere about a similar discount for MSS users who want to buy LASS?


----------



## Kony

According to the YT comments, it's the Private Ryan preset with no added reverb.


----------



## borisb2

Vik said:


> I wonder if MSS can do stuff like this.



sounds lovely!


----------



## muziksculp

composingkeys said:


> Is MSS "LASS 3"?


No, MSS is a new Strings Library, using all new string samples, and a new AudioBro Kontakt Engine. 

LASS 3 will be released later this year, it will use the same samples as LASS 2.5 but run in the new AudioBro Kontakt Engine.


----------



## wilifordmusic

Thanks to both of you for the replies.
Regarding discounts, I don't think anyone has even contemplated this till now.

I think owning both libraries would be a gateway to two different musical universes.
I've owned and used LASS for quite some time now, and used other libraries for different kinds of musical places.

In other words, I don't think they are mutually exclusive.


----------



## Casiquire

wilifordmusic said:


> Thanks to both of you for the replies.
> Regarding discounts, I don't think anyone has even contemplated this till now.
> 
> I think owning both libraries would be a gateway to two different musical universes.
> I've owned and used LASS for quite some time now, and used other libraries for different kinds of musical places.
> 
> In other words, I don't think they are mutually exclusive.


I agree. If the sound of the ostinato video is any indication, they will be a great compliment.


----------



## wilifordmusic

Having more than one library is like owning a Telecaster and an ES-335 for you guitar dudes.


----------



## shawnsingh

wilifordmusic said:


> Having more than one library is like owning a Telecaster and an ES-335 for you guitar dudes.


Only if you can play both at the same time...


----------



## wilifordmusic

That's just crazy.
Or, you're a freak with four arms and a badass computer.


----------



## wilifordmusic

Are we talking about guitars or string libraries?


----------



## shawnsingh

I'm not sure, I got confused...

Now that I joined the thread, I'll at least say I am drawn to the idea of divisi sections being samples. Wish more string libraries would do it.


----------



## Noc

Personally I like the idea of recorded ostinatos. After all, the point of high-quality sample libraries is to get music that sounds as realistic as possible, and what's more realistic than actual recordings? 

(Of course, this assumes that a) the recordings are flexible enough to still sound good at different tempos/dynamic levels, and b) they blend well with non-recorded sampled notes so you don’t immediately hear a difference when the engine switches from one to the other. But I’m certain Audiobro have this all figured out.)


----------



## JTB

Noc said:


> (Of course, this assumes that a) the recordings are flexible enough to still sound good at different tempos/dynamic levels, and b) they blend well with non-recorded sampled notes so you don’t immediately hear a difference when the engine switches from one to the other. But I’m certain Audiobro have this all figured out.)


First impressions are, so I'm told, quite important. AB has basically demonstrated with this video that they are capable of recording a string section with a nice tone, which has been going on now for 60-70 years.


----------



## lettucehat

Again, what's the problem? Is the library worse for having pre-recorded interval phrases you have the option not to use?


----------



## Christof

I like the option to have prerecorded intervals, as shown in the video.
Imagine how hard it would be to do natural intervals with legato or sus patches.It always sounds kind of artificial.
Looking forward to hearing the other patches, especially shorts and legato!


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Christof said:


> I like the option to have prerecorded intervals, as shown in the video.
> Imagine how hard it would be to do natural intervals with legato or sus patches.It always sounds kind of artificial.


It's not clear what's going on with legato yet. If legato can't do such simple things as up-down-up, down-up-down convincingly, then for the best result it will be necessary to switch to special ostinato? In this case, it would be sad, because I would like legato to be more advanced in this regard.


----------



## Christof

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> It's not clear what's going on with legato yet. If legato can't do such simple things as up-down-up, down-up-down convincingly, then for the best result it will be necessary to switch to special ostinato? In this case, it would be sad, because I would like legato to be more advanced in this regard.


we will soon find out


----------



## novaburst

Raphioli said:


> Hope MSS doesn't get pushed back to February or something.


I think developers should learn from what happened to Cyberpunk, 

I think it's better to be frustrated over something that is delayed than something that needs to be fixed


----------



## lettucehat

Do LASS' ART or other libraries' prerecorded repetitions mean you can't put together your own spiccato patterns?


----------



## jononotbono

Saxer said:


> I bought their Scoring Brass in presale... and I never used it.


Why? Just curious


----------



## Saxer

jononotbono said:


> Why? Just curious


I found them a bit to far away and impersonal... and I like to use the TEControl instead of sliders for different attacks etc, so it's a very subjective taste thing. And too many others to choose from.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

coincidently, I had a file on my desktop of berlin strings expansion's measured trills - for the sake of comparison.

I looked the other day cause I know I posted it earlier in the year for something (looks like it was back in march based on when the file was made)

My issue is that i'd rather a patch with round robins so that I can play whatever figuration I want. it's not bad - but I'd rather work with something I control manually.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Nobody told that you couldn't reproduce that by playing your ostinati yourself.
I'd wait for all of the details before asserting something I am not aware of


----------



## ProfoundSilence

yellow_lupine said:


> Nobody told that you couldn't reproduce that by playing your ostinati yourself.
> I'd wait for all of the details before asserting something I am not aware of








There are quite a bit of details out, including the full list of articulations. 

The sampling technique for these recorded intervals for the ostinato is completely different, so different samples - which are tempo synced, and are not simply the sustains + legato. In fact when talked about why that articulation was even created - it was because of how hard it is to simply re-create the effect with a legato patch. 

The details you need to come to this conclusion are readily available.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Until you don't try the library yourself you cannot make suppositions about how hard it can be to recreate any effect


----------



## novaburst

Saxer said:


> I found them a bit to far away and impersonal... and I like to use the TEControl instead of sliders for different attacks etc, so it's a very subjective taste thing. And too many others to choose from.


I think it is a very good brass library considering it's exactly the same engine AB is using for MSS, 

I think there is so much you can do with thier latest player to customize your sound, also making the instruments smaller in size, and placing the instruments in certain areas of the room 

I think AB did a great job with this


----------



## Casiquire

I think the point is that almost no library can sound as good as a recording doing this one task which is simple for live players so they included a pre-recorded version of it. It's that simple, i really don't see the reason for all the fuss here 😆


----------



## zimm83

Great sound so far. Great.


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> I think the point is that almost no library can sound as good as a recording doing this one task which is simple for live players so they included a pre-recorded version of it. It's that simple, i really don't see the reason for all the fuss here 😆


Exactly. It's like someone being utterly frustrated that he's not able to make convincing trills with a regular legato patch, while the library already comes with pre-recorded trills...😒


----------



## ProfoundSilence

yellow_lupine said:


> Until you don't try the library yourself you cannot make suppositions about how hard it can be to recreate any effect



Except many of us own many libraries, and the fact that there are dedicated attempts at solving this problem - coupled with the fact that the developer(who has made 3 string libraries now) painstakingly recorded this articulation for his 3rd library because string libraries struggle with it using standard legato techniques


----------



## Minsky

Beans said:


> What makes you think this, at this early point?


Financially I mean. I was always interested in MSS. I was told to get LASS Full in order to get the discount for MSS..so I did. But actually if I just got the standard promo discount for users of Audiobro (I have LADD) then I'd be a couple of hundred $ up on the deal. That's what I meant.


----------



## JTB

Rather odd IMO to introduce a library by stating (indirectly) that we AB have chucked in the towel on trying to achieve realistic ostinato's with samples so here is the next best thing.


----------



## Beans

It's one video, on one capability. Can we not wait to pass such judgment?


----------



## Beans

Casiquire said:


> i really don't see the reason for all the fuss here 😆


I've actually decided that I'm mad at Audiobro for releasing this as the first video, because it means we have to see all this unnecessary fuss from these fussy people, which has made me into a fussy person for completely different reasons.

Could have been avoided if they started out with a video on their approach for pizzicato.


----------



## Minsky

Casiquire said:


> If you own LASS+LS, you get 550 off of MSS Full, which is literally more than it costs to get LASS+LS. At first glance i was hoping it would be a bigger discount too, but truth be told, they're practically giving away LASS to people who buy both


Yeah I do understand where you're coming from. Tbh I'm not that fussed about LASS. I see MSS as a replacement for it (because it lacks the mics etc). So, as a user of LADD I could've got MSS for the Promo price of $649. Instead I can get it for $549 (half price) ..which is good... but I had to spend $524 to get it... which is the same (or similar) to buying MSS at full price. I'm a bit annoyed that I spent $424 more than I needed to basically ON THEIR SAY SO - they posted I think in this forum, encouraging purchase within he BF Sale period. I understand that I also have LASS (with Sord) but I just don't think I'll ever use it. Audiobro were so cool with me when I got in touch before the release, but they gave people a bit of a bum steer ..and in the current climate that sucks. It wasn't deliberate ..and maybe their focus was on people who had bought LASS long ago and had the use of it rather than people like me purchasing it as a gateway to getting MSS. Anyway, I'm just having a gripe.


----------



## AndyP

Casiquire said:


> I think the point is that almost no library can sound as good as a recording doing this one task which is simple for live players so they included a pre-recorded version of it. It's that simple, i really don't see the reason for all the fuss here 😆


Depends on ...


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Beans said:


> It's one video, on one capability. Can we not wait to pass such judgment?


its a good idea though, since I can think of literally 1 other library that can even do this - it's a nice stand apart feature. 

That said, figured, as someone who OWNS one of the libraries that actually has this - it has it's own drawbacks. I have measured trills for BWW and berlin strings - but I still find myself often times using other patches to recreate the effect so that I have more control over the figurations. Something as simple as deciding if it starts on the top and goes down or bottom and goes up is a big deal.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

AndyP said:


> Depends on ...



bruh why they gotta do prokofiev like that


----------



## jononotbono

From everything I've listened to so far I will definitely be buying MSS. Sounds excellent.


----------



## JTB

Beans said:


> I've actually decided that I'm mad at Audiobro for releasing this as the first video, because it means we have to see all this unnecessary fuss from these fussy people, which has made me into a fussy person for completely different reasons.
> 
> Could have been avoided if they started out with a video on their approach for pizzicato.


The first taste of a new fandangle product is usually designed to wow the consumer?. And now ppl are being called "fussy" because they are not wowed by strings loops.


----------



## Beans

JTB said:


> The first taste of a new fandangle product is usually designed to wow the consumer?. And now ppl are being called "fussy" because they are not wowed by strings loops.


It's more that (some) people have been getting a bit agitated by the lack of videos and audio demos for a product that the developer has said is not yet ready for release. Then, when the first video is trickled out, (some) people are either A) dismissing the entire library or B) saying they already think it's going to replace another full strings library they have.

Aren't both sides a bit... preliminary?


----------



## Casiquire

JTB said:


> The first taste of a new fandangle product is usually designed to wow the consumer?. And now ppl are being called "fussy" because they are not wowed by strings loops.



Yes. The crowd that spends 30 pages analyzing the colors in the background of an information-free Spitfire hype email and that casts judgment on an entire library based on a preview of one single feature--which actually sounds good--is fussy. Hate to break it to you lol. That's why we're here, we're fussy about our instruments and gear

Anyway Audiobro doesn't ever do marketing in the "usual" way


----------



## Batrawi

I think Audiobro could have been making the walk-through videos following the same order of the features list we see on their MSS page (which focuses the light on Ostinatos first).... so I assume he next video(and of course our next fight) will be about "Scale Runs"


----------



## william81723

Minsky said:


> Financially I mean. I was always interested in MSS. I was told to get LASS Full in order to get the discount for MSS..so I did. But actually if I just got the standard promo discount for users of Audiobro (I have LADD) then I'd be a couple of hundred $ up on the deal. That's what I meant.


You are not alone......... me too.


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> I think Audiobro could have been making the walk-through videos following the same order of the features list we see on their MSS page (which focuses the light on Ostinatos first).... so I assume he next video(and of course our next fight) will be about "Scale Runs"


The first on their MSS feature list is "Gorgeous Divisi Sound, and Ease of Use" . This is the most interesting part of the library for me. The Divisi, and the Sound/timbre of the library. This will also give us an idea how LASS 3 divisi system will work when it is released.


----------



## Toecutter

I would like a walkthrough of the microphone options, preferably with longs/legatos and shorts examples.

Ostinati engine is sweet but I think some are overthinking it...


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> The first on their MSS feature list is "Gorgeous Divisi Sound, and Ease of Use" . This is the most interesting part of the library for me. The Divisi, and the Sound/timbre of the library. This will also give us an idea how LASS 3 divisi system will work when it is released.


My entire purchasing decision is based on the sound, legato, and expressive performance.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> My entire purchasing decision is based on the sound, legato, and expressive performance.


Same here, add to that the new Auto-Divisi System in MSS. 

Especially since I never liked using the Auto-Divisi System of LASS 2.5, so having a much easier to use Divisi-System is one of the main new features I'm looking forward to, especially since this will also apply to LASS 3. 

I'm very excited about this library, especially given the tone/timbre of the library I heard in the first video showing the Ostinato engine is very nice, I have a feeling the library sounds wonderful timbre wise. Also looking forward to hear the Sordino Strings of MSS, and First Chairs. 

I also noticed they have a Tonality parameter , Maybe this offers various string timbres to choose from. Looking forward to know more about these details.


----------



## davidanthony

Minsky said:


> I'm a bit annoyed that I spent $424 more than I needed to basically ON THEIR SAY SO - they posted I think in this forum, encouraging purchase within he BF Sale period.


To be fair, this is what @dxmachina said directly on the topic:



> If you want both libraries it should be a nice deal.


The key word there is both, but unfortunately I think a lot of people on here missed that.

The thing that's strange to me is, unless I'm reading the pricing chart wrong, owning the LASS LS expansion doesn't give additional credit off the MSS expanded legatos (which include the sordinos, so it seems like a logical extension)?


----------



## ChristianM

Beans said:


> J'ai en fait décidé que je suis en colère contre Audiobro pour avoir publié ceci comme première vidéo, car cela signifie que nous devons voir toute cette agitation inutile de ces personnes difficiles, ce qui a fait de moi une personne difficile pour des raisons complètement différentes.
> 
> Cela aurait pu être évité s'ils avaient commencé avec une vidéo sur leur approche du pizzicato.


pizzicato legato


----------



## Minsky

davidanthony said:


> To be fair, this is what @dxmachina said directly on the topic:
> 
> 
> The key word there is both, but unfortunately I think a lot of people on here missed that.
> 
> The thing that's strange to me is, unless I'm reading the pricing chart wrong, owning the LASS LS expansion doesn't give additional credit off the MSS expanded legatos (which include the sordinos, so it seems like a logical extension)?


Yeah I don’t want to be hyper critical.. they can’t speak to us all individually after all but I think they haven’t got it quite right overall ...that’s my take on the LS expansion too. I’m going to drop them a line and just tell them what I’m feeling. I don’t expect them to revisit pricing etc .. just I don’t want to just moan here without even talking to them .. which is what I’m doing at the moment .. ha!


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Same here, add to that the new Auto-Divisi System in MSS.
> 
> Especially since I never liked using the Auto-Divisi System of LASS 2.5, so having a much easier to use Divisi-System is one of the main new features I'm looking forward to, especially since this will also apply to LASS 3.
> 
> I'm very excited about this library, especially given the tone/timbre of the library I heard in the first video showing the Ostinato engine is very nice, I have a feeling the library sounds wonderful timbre wise. Also looking forward to hear the Sordino Strings of MSS, and First Chairs.
> 
> I also noticed they have a Tonality parameter , Maybe this offers various string timbres to choose from. Looking forward to know more about these details.


Similar to the LASS colors, i imagine


----------



## Batrawi

Minsky said:


> Yeah I don’t want to be hyper critical.. they can’t speak to us all individually after all but I think they haven’t got it quite right overall ...that’s my take on the LS expansion too. I’m going to drop them a line and just tell them what I’m feeling. I don’t expect them to revisit pricing etc .. just I don’t want to just moan here without even talking to them .. which is what I’m doing at the moment .. ha!


If the release gets delayed any further, we'll all put the blame on you


----------



## VivianaSings

JTB said:


> Rather odd IMO to introduce a library by stating (indirectly) that we AB have chucked in the towel on trying to achieve realistic ostinato's with samples so here is the next best thing.


Or rather they said, "This is the best way with current technology to get realistic ostinatos, but feel free to play the actual samples in note by note if that's what you'd rather do. It'll sound good but a little less smooth". 

Far from chucking in the towel by a long stretch. I give them credit that instead of giving up when it's hard to get realistic ostinatos with current technology, they chose to try different methods and add it additionally to their product.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Really love the sound in the first video!


----------



## Paul Jelfs

They are probably reading these comments, and with all the worry and negative vibes are holding back from putting up the next video, as it probably is not the divisi legato one yet. 

If you like the sound we should be saying - Please sir, Can I have some More ?


----------



## zimm83

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Really love the sound in the first video!


+1000


----------



## filipjonathan

When are they releasing the next video?


----------



## chapbot

filipjonathan said:


> When are they releasing the next video?


Early April.


----------



## filipjonathan

chapbot said:


> Early April.


What? Seriously?


----------



## chapbot

filipjonathan said:


> What? Seriously?


🤣


----------



## Casiquire

chapbot said:


> Early April.


WILL YOU STOP 😆😂


----------



## novaburst

Casiquire said:


> My entire purchasing decision is based on the sound, legato, and expressive performance.


I think when the Ostinato feature gets cold, your statement is what it all boils down too, 

In other words if the Ostinato was bad or not to good but the rest of the library , tone and the Legato, and the rest of the playable articulations are of a high standard i think no body would mind about a bad ostinato and they would just get the library anywayz.

I am not sure if there would be a ticket complaint saying hay AB the ostinato dose not work correctly but there would be lots of tickets complaints if the legato and sustains had issues or wrong notes

using a mechanical ostinato will inevitably fade away but for legato and tone playability will never fade, and this is the reason why we still love HWS, and even LASS, CSS, and of course BS, PS,

The tone and playability Legato great playable articulations will always glue you to those library's


----------



## bvaughn0402

The sound is nice to me. Unless the next few videos contradict that, this will be a purchase for me. More debate for me in purchasing EastWest until some type of demo ...


----------



## Pianolando

filipjonathan said:


> What? Seriously?



No. No one knows. Soon I hope, really looking forward to hearing more.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Come on Audiobro , we need more . Feed us. FEEEEEED USSSSSSSSSSSSS.


----------



## muziksculp

Paul Jelfs said:


> Come on Audiobro , we need more . Feed us. FEEEEEED USSSSSSSSSSSSS.


Yes, please our ears are starving for some more tasty MSS sounds.


----------



## karender




----------



## NeonMediaKJT

karender said:


>


jokes on you i like that song


----------



## Minsky

Batrawi said:


> If the release gets delayed any further, we'll all put the blame on you


Oh man! yeah... I'd better go get that target for my back


----------



## chapbot

karender said:


>


I just had a stroke.


----------



## ChristianM

karender said:


>


BOUHHHHH


----------



## mcalis

karender said:


>


You got me. You got me good...


----------



## Pianolando

karender said:


>



Ban-worthy 😂


----------



## ProfoundSilence

muziksculp said:


> Same here, add to that the new Auto-Divisi System in MSS.
> 
> Especially since I never liked using the Auto-Divisi System of LASS 2.5, so having a much easier to use Divisi-System is one of the main new features I'm looking forward to, especially since this will also apply to LASS 3.
> 
> I'm very excited about this library, especially given the tone/timbre of the library I heard in the first video showing the Ostinato engine is very nice, I have a feeling the library sounds wonderful timbre wise. Also looking forward to hear the Sordino Strings of MSS, and First Chairs.
> 
> I also noticed they have a Tonality parameter , Maybe this offers various string timbres to choose from. Looking forward to know more about these details.


If it's like the brass it's probably just an EQ


----------



## davidanthony

william81723 said:


> However, except their technique and great effort,they give me such a really bad impression to their company...
> They really disappoint me for their marketing policy.



Even though I share a slight disappointment about the pricing implementation myself, their general approach to marketing actually gives me _more_ faith in Audiobro as a company. Seems like a handful of developers who love music and are trying to make a good product and price it fairly enough to put some food on the table. 

Same thing goes for the Ostinatos video. Is it what I wanted to hear? No. But I'm sure they had a reason for it (even if it was just pride in the technology) and I vastly prefer it to some over-produced introductory video selling dreams. At the end of the day I'm happy to deal with some bumbling and fumbling if it means getting quality products without paying for their marketing department.


----------



## Batrawi

MSS Closer Look


----------



## Hanu_H

I really don't understand what people are complaining here. 🤷‍♂️ Audiobro is not Spitfire or Orchestral Tools and does not do overhyped videos. How is this ostinato thing somehow a bad thing? It's a part of this huge library and I am sure they will release videos for all the main features of the library.


----------



## Casiquire

Hanu_H said:


> I really don't understand what people are complaining here. 🤷‍♂️ Audiobro is not Spitfire or Orchestral Tools and does not do overhyped videos. How is this ostinato thing somehow a bad thing? It's a part of this huge library and I am sure they will release videos for all the main features of the library.


I'm scratching my head too.


----------



## FKVStudio

I do not understand the complaint. They are showing part of the product that they are going to launch and there are more demos to come out. Patience. For my part I am still very, very interested in knowing more. I'm already biting my nails so, Audiobro, give me more!  

At the moment the scale is still inclined to buy it, but I prefer it to go well even if it delays a bit than to be taken out in a hurry and it comes out with errors (ejem! Spitfire ....)


----------



## sourcefor

Minsky said:


> Yeah I do understand where you're coming from. Tbh I'm not that fussed about LASS. I see MSS as a replacement for it (because it lacks the mics etc). So, as a user of LADD I could've got MSS for the Promo price of $649. Instead I can get it for $549 (half price) ..which is good... but I had to spend $524 to get it... which is the same (or similar) to buying MSS at full price. I'm a bit annoyed that I spent $424 more than I needed to basically ON THEIR SAY SO - they posted I think in this forum, encouraging purchase within he BF Sale period. I understand that I also have LASS (with Sord) but I just don't think I'll ever use it. Audiobro were so cool with me when I got in touch before the release, but they gave people a bit of a bum steer ..and in the current climate that sucks. It wasn't deliberate ..and maybe their focus was on people who had bought LASS long ago and had the use of it rather than people like me purchasing it as a gateway to getting MSS. Anyway, I'm just having a gripe.


Yeah I got LASS full based on the discount as well and I spent 249 so add that to the 399 discount and I’m up at 649 regular price!


----------



## sourcefor

karender said:


>


That was funny


----------



## sourcefor

sourcefor said:


> Yeah I got LASS full based on the discount as well and I spent 249 so add that to the 399 discount and I’m up at 649 regular price!


Maybe when it goes on sale there will be a better discount when you log in like before, fingers crossed, I really like their products and have used LASS for years!


----------



## rampant

sourcefor said:


> Yeah I got LASS full based on the discount as well and I spent 249 so add that to the 399 discount and I’m up at 649 regular price!


Then, honestly, I would say you got a great deal on what is still a very usable and versatile library, especially for layering with wetter libraries, as I paid $999.00 back when LASS was first released -- and shipped on DVDs, no less!



Gingerbread said:


> The ostinatos generally sound really nice, but I'm wondering what people think about the violas, when they play by themselves at 2:57? Am I the only one who thinks they sound a little...boxy? Especially as compared to the violins, which were played just prior?


Exposed, the violas sound a little thin. This could be audio compression for the video... or maybe it's something that can be adjusted to taste with some fiddling around in the settings/external plugins like EQ. When used in conjunction with violins (or violins and cellos) in the demo video, however, I think the violas sound perfectly fine.

I'm very much looking forward to Modern Scoring Strings. The ostinati sound great. I can't wait to hear more of the library, and I think the crossgrade price for LASS Full owners is quite generous. Time will tell if it has the same level of flexibility as LASS, and whether it complements or replaces it in my template.


----------



## WinterEmerald

Christ, some of the comments here make me think you actually believe Audiobro is just releasing an ostinato library. Have some patience, learn to read and understand more demos are coming...

I felt the ostinato demos sounded fantastic, personally, and it looks so intuitive to use. I am hugely excited about the rest of the demos, hearing this already. I have had massive expectations for this library and so far it's being delivered; let's see how the other demos sound, especially the legato.


----------



## novaburst

WinterEmerald said:


> some of the comments here make me think you actually believe Audiobro is just releasing an ostinato library. Have some patience, learn to read and understand more demos are coming...


try not to get to hung up on comments and statements its only a thought sharing moment, it is all just a little excitement and movement about a new string library soon to be released.

Its a forum and people will say what they want about a product or express their feelings and basically that is that and nothing more,

Why not discuss about the launch of a demo or what you want to hear first in a demo


----------



## WinterEmerald

novaburst said:


> try not to get to hung up on comments and statements its only a thought sharing moment, it is all just a little excitement and movement about a new string library soon to be released.
> 
> Its a forum and people will say what they want about a product or express their feelings and basically that is that and nothing more,
> 
> Why not discuss about the launch of a demo or what you want to hear first in a demo


Thanks for explaining the concept of a forum to me. Mine is also a thought sharing moment.


----------



## novaburst

WinterEmerald said:


> Thanks for explaining the concept of a forum to me. Mine is also a thought sharing moment.


nice,,,,, so what do you think of those ostinatos then.......


----------



## sourcefor

rampant said:


> Then, honestly, I would say you got a great deal on what is still a very usable and versatile library, especially for layering with wetter libraries, as I paid $999.00 back when LASS was first released -- and shipped on DVDs, no less!
> 
> 
> Exposed, the violas sound a little thin. This could be audio compression for the video... or maybe it's something that can be adjusted to taste with some fiddling around in the settings/external plugins like EQ. When used in conjunction with violins (or violins and cellos) in the demo video, however, I think the violas sound perfectly fine.
> 
> I'm very much looking forward to Modern Scoring Strings. The ostinati sound great. I can't wait to hear more of the library, and I think the crossgrade price for LASS Full owners is quite generous. Time will tell if it has the same level of flexibility as LASS, and whether it complements or replaces it in my template.


Yes I did get a great deal on a library I use on every project almost, I’m not that scathed it’s still a great deal!


----------



## WinterEmerald

novaburst said:


> nice,,,,, so what do you think of those ostinatos then.......


My first comment literally said how I felt about them


----------



## Batrawi

WinterEmerald said:


> My first comment literally said how I felt about them


you have to learn not to edit/update your initial comment, but instead keep posting new ones... this will increase the page counts and accordingly increase the release speed of the library!


----------



## novaburst

Batrawi said:


> you have to learn not to edit/update your initial comment, but instead keep posting new ones... this will increase the page counts and accordingly increase the release speed of the library!


I am sure I read somewhere that the library will be released in April .......


----------



## Noeticus

A recall reading somewhere that the earth was flat.


----------



## ChristianM

novaburst said:


> I am sure I read somewhere that the library will be released in April .......


Yes, April first at the end of January


----------



## Noeticus

Dear AudioBro Team,

Your work is exemplary!!!

Bravo.


----------



## novaburst

Noeticus said:


> A recall reading somewhere that the earth was flat.


Bb maj


----------



## FKVStudio

"Estimated release by the end of January"

That is what it says on the official website.


----------



## dcoscina

I have been in the land of listening to so many exceptional recordings of real orchestras, most of my sample libraries sound like s*** by comparison. The ostinato demo is one of the few things that has genuinely perked up my ears. If the rest of this library is like this, I think I found my new go-to string library.


----------



## ansthenia

I really like the sound in the ostinato demo. Looking forward to the next vid!


----------



## Drumdude2112

That DOES sound really great, and is actually bringing something new to the party .
Look forward to hearing more .


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Noeticus said:


> A recall reading somewhere that the earth was flat.


Strange- I heard that it is sharp C#. Fake news everywhere.....


----------



## Eptesicus

Will there be a rebow feature? 

Please say that having gone to all this detailed sampling that this is in there too!


----------



## Batrawi

Eptesicus said:


> Will there be a rebow feature?
> 
> Please say that having gone to all this detailed sampling that this is in there too!


Yes. Quoting Sebsatian in an earlier post:
_Yes, real rebow legato / same-note-legato. You can use pedal or our "Repeat" key, which is shockingly useful for fast shorts as well._


----------



## Eptesicus

Batrawi said:


> Yes. Quoting Sebsatian in an earlier post:
> _Yes, real rebow legato / same-note-legato. You can use pedal or our "Repeat" key, which is shockingly useful for fast shorts as well._



Ah thanks, I missed that. Good to hear.


----------



## yellow_lupine

@dxmachina
Hello, any chance to have one more video next week?


----------



## muziksculp

yellow_lupine said:


> @dxmachina
> Hello, any chance to have one more video next week?


OR Today ?


----------



## Noeticus

Apparently, pressing F5 repeatedly does not cause a video to appear on the MSS page.


----------



## ChristianM

Try F16


----------



## Noeticus

Typing E=mc2 does nothing. 

What's up with that?


----------



## JTB

Casiquire said:


> I think the point is that almost no library can sound as good as a recording doing this one task which is simple for live players so they included a pre-recorded version of it. It's that simple, i really don't see the reason for all the fuss here 😆


The "fuss" is that I always go into a purchasing decision asking whether this library is capable of creating a coherent musical performance with legato, velocity crossfades, vibrato and consistency throughout the library. AB, by releasing this video, is basically knocking out my defences by allowing the sound of this demo to imprint on my mind for a 5 days so when I DO listen to the legato and velocity crossfades, I am fighting against a conflicting imprint of perfect sounding transitions.


----------



## Noeticus

JTB said:


> The "fuss" is that I always go into a purchasing decision asking whether this library is capable of creating a coherent musical performance with legato, velocity crossfades, vibrato and consistency throughout the library. AB, by releasing this video, is basically knocking out my defences by allowing the sound of this demo to imprint on my mind for a 5 days so when I DO listen to the legato and velocity crossfades, I am fighting against a conflicting imprint of perfect sounding transitions.


Oh, the irony... but well said. But, you will buy MSS as the social imprinting has you right in the articulation list.


----------



## Casiquire

JTB said:


> The "fuss" is that I always go into a purchasing decision asking whether this library is capable of creating a coherent musical performance with legato, velocity crossfades, vibrato and consistency throughout the library. AB, by releasing this video, is basically knocking out my defences by allowing the sound of this demo to imprint on my mind for a 5 days so when I DO listen to the legato and velocity crossfades, I am fighting against a conflicting imprint of perfect sounding transitions.


I'm genuinely confused by this. I think most of our opinions on a library change as we're exposed to more of it. I don't believe that the psychological influence you're describing is common or powerful at all. Recent demos have made me question CSS's touted flawless legato smoothness after years of conditioning here and in demos. I think we've all experienced that--the first demo or video sounds amazing, and we start to nitpick as more details emerge


----------



## dxmachina

> Hello, any chance to have one more video next week?


Yep, content releases all the way up to launch (and after launch as well). There's a _ton_ to cover... more than any library we've done. It's just the two of us here... so we appreciate your patience as we remember what our voices sound like when recorded and how to use After Effects to render title cards.


----------



## Noeticus

dxmachina said:


> Yep, content releases all the way up to launch (and after launch as well). There's a _ton_ to cover... more than any library we've done. It's just the two of us here... so we appreciate your patience as we remember what our voices sound like when recorded and how to use After Effects to render title cards.


Both of you deserve an award for the great work you do. Truly.


----------



## Pablocrespo

dxmachina said:


> Yep, content releases all the way up to launch (and after launch as well). There's a _ton_ to cover... more than any library we've done. It's just the two of us here... so we appreciate your patience as we remember what our voices sound like when recorded and how to use After Effects to render title cards.


Ever thought about getting Morgan Freeman to do the narration?


----------



## Noc

Pablocrespo said:


> Ever thought about getting Morgan Freeman to do the narration?


Now I wanna hear Morgan Freeman talking about the dulcet woody tones of the cello and how amazing that divisi is


----------



## Noeticus

I had no idea he was Irish.


----------



## BasariStudios

Here is a confusion story...i bought EWQL HS Diamond a decade ago 
and never turned it on. Read all kinds of comments on the net and 
never really used it and bout another 20 Strings Libraries. A Month
ago i opened a topic on FB who else will retire and delete EWQL HS.
Comments were mixed, few people intimidated me to actually check
the library out, SINCE I HAVE IT. I gave it all my attention for 2 weeks
and composed something. Now is not my GO TO Library but...it is the
ONLY Library i will use and already prepared the money for OPUS.
So there is that...when it comes to Social Media and Decisions.


----------



## muziksculp

BasariStudios said:


> Here is a confusion story...i bought EWQL HS Diamond a decade ago
> and never turned it on. Read all kinds of comments on the net and
> never really used it and bout another 20 Strings Libraries. A Month
> ago i opened a topic on FB who else will retire and delete EWQL HS.
> Comments were mixed, few people intimidated me to actually check
> the library out, SINCE I HAVE IT. I gave it all my attention for 2 weeks
> and composed something. Now is not my GO TO Library but...it is the
> ONLY Library i will use and already prepared the money for OPUS.
> So there is that...when it comes to Social Media and Decisions.


I think you posted in the wrong thread, You probably wanted to post this in the Hoopus thread. 

What does EWQL HS have to do with MSS ?


----------



## BasariStudios

muziksculp said:


> I think you posted in the wrong thread, You probably wanted to post this in the Hoopus thread.
> 
> What does EWQL HS have to do with MSS ?


Read few of the comments above me.


----------



## muziksculp

BasariStudios said:


> Read few of the comments above me.


I don't know which comments you are referring to. Can you post a link to them.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> I don't know which comments you are referring to. Can you post a link to them.


Probably the couple comments about how the MSS Ostinato video conditions us to associate the library with natural sounding transitions so we won't be as critical when the demos start coming out


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Probably the couple comments about how the MSS Ostinato video conditions us to associate the library with natural sounding transitions so we won't be as critical when the demos start coming out


I still don't see the connection of Hoopus, and EWQL HS to those posts.


----------



## Raphioli

muziksculp said:


> I still don't see the connection of Hoopus, and EWQL HS to those posts.


Maybe it means, one should only take comments/posts with a grain of salt and make the final judgement yourself(?). (In this instance, it would refer to those comments about the ostinato video and/or the "fuss")

But I honestly don't understand why you wouldn't use a library you already own/bought.
Especially if you bought it a decade ago, when it use to cost like $1k.
(Unless he/she did actually try to use it but didn't like Play or that complex/huge list of patches)


----------



## Noeticus

Perhaps its an ad for a different library.


----------



## muziksculp

Noeticus said:


> Perhaps its an ad for a different library.


That's how it came across to me when I first read it.


----------



## Minsky

rampant said:


> Then, honestly, I would say you got a great deal on what is still a very usable and versatile library, especially for layering with wetter libraries, as I paid $999.00 back when LASS was first released -- and shipped on DVDs, no less!
> 
> 
> Exposed, the violas sound a little thin. This could be audio compression for the video... or maybe it's something that can be adjusted to taste with some fiddling around in the settings/external plugins like EQ. When used in conjunction with violins (or violins and cellos) in the demo video, however, I think the violas sound perfectly fine.
> 
> I'm very much looking forward to Modern Scoring Strings. The ostinati sound great. I can't wait to hear more of the library, and I think the crossgrade price for LASS Full owners is quite generous. Time will tell if it has the same level of flexibility as LASS, and whether it complements or replaces it in my template.


Yeah sure, of course it’s good value if you wanted that library. I have a lot of libraries I’ve bought at full price on dvd. But.. Let me put it this way.. imagine I’ve got a special motorised spade you want for digging (I don’t know why I came up with that either!).. i tell you that you’ll get it super cheap.. like.. the cheapest if you buy my current range of shades first. Now, you have a load of really good (more modern) spades that you can use but you buy them from me cos you want the motorised one at the best price.
Then I sell the motorised one at a good deal for you but not the best price.. in fact more expensive than if you didn’t buy my older standard spades. You could’ve saved $400 by just buying the motorised one. How do you feel?

my issue is NOT whether LASS is worth the reduced price; or how good a deal the reduction is on MSS. It’s more .. they told me to do something telling me it’d be cheaper but it ended up being way more expensive. I feel a bit misled, well .. because I was. I don't believe set out to do this; I think it is just a bit sloppy but the end result is the same and $400 is a lot right now tbh.

PS. And if you ARE in the market for a motorised spade...


----------



## Casiquire

Minsky said:


> Yeah sure, of course it’s good value if you wanted that library. I have a lot of libraries I’ve bought at full price on dvd. But.. Let me put it this way.. imagine I’ve got a special motorised spade you want for digging (I don’t know why I came up with that either!).. i tell you that you’ll get it super cheap.. like.. the cheapest if you buy my current range of shades first. Now, you have a load of really good (more modern) spades that you can use but you buy them from me cos you want the motorised one at the best price.
> Then I sell the motorised one at a good deal for you but not the best price.. in fact more expensive than if you didn’t buy my older standard spades. You could’ve saved $400 by just buying the motorised one. How do you feel?
> 
> my issue is NOT whether LASS is worth the reduced price; or how good a deal the reduction is on MSS. It’s more .. they told me to do something telling me it’d be cheaper but it ended up being way more expensive. I feel a bit misled, well .. because I was. I don't believe set out to do this; I think it is just a bit sloppy but the end result is the same and $400 is a lot right now tbh.
> 
> PS. And if you ARE in the market for a motorised spade...


I thought they were very clear that the pricing wasn't finalized yet, and getting LASS first *does* make it cheaper to new customers. I think an early lesson to learn in these forums is to never buy sight unseen


----------



## Noeticus

Another way to look at it, is that MSS is worth it, even at full price.


----------



## lettucehat

It's always a gamble buying something for the discount you expect, especially when the new product isn't even really a new version of the original. I decided to do this with Con Moto, but on the strength of CM and not purely because I expected a huge discount on Vista. For this I decided LASS Full (2.5+Legato Sordino?) would be nice but not necessary to have if this library delivers on its promise. One can even buy LASS during the intro period if they like the demos and videos of MSS. But in 2021 I didn't see LASS Full as necessary on its own merits, as good a library as it is.


----------



## Minsky

Casiquire said:


> I thought they were very clear that the pricing wasn't finalized yet, and getting LASS first *does* make it cheaper to new customers. I think an early lesson to learn in these forums is to never buy sight unseen


Yeah agreed.. though it complicates things that I emailed them and they knew the situation but still I got the bum advice. Sight unseen is one thing but should we then not trust developers when they themselves indicate the pricing? Look nobody anything else other than do as they suggested. But.. Anyway, we shall agree to disagree on this. Nice chatting with you.


----------



## Casiquire

Minsky said:


> Yeah agreed.. though it complicates things that I emailed them and they knew the situation but still I got the bum advice. Sight unseen is one thing but should we then not trust developers when they themselves indicate the pricing? Look nobody anything else other than do as they suggested. But.. Anyway, we shall agree to disagree on this. Nice chatting with you.


I didn't realize you emailed them, i thought you just meant this thread. Sorry to misunderstand!


----------



## CinematiX

Minsky said:


> Yeah sure, of course it’s good value if you wanted that library. I have a lot of libraries I’ve bought at full price on dvd. But.. Let me put it this way.. imagine I’ve got a special motorised spade you want for digging (I don’t know why I came up with that either!).. i tell you that you’ll get it super cheap.. like.. the cheapest if you buy my current range of shades first. Now, you have a load of really good (more modern) spades that you can use but you buy them from me cos you want the motorised one at the best price.
> Then I sell the motorised one at a good deal for you but not the best price.. in fact more expensive than if you didn’t buy my older standard spades. You could’ve saved $400 by just buying the motorised one. How do you feel?
> 
> my issue is NOT whether LASS is worth the reduced price; or how good a deal the reduction is on MSS. It’s more .. they told me to do something telling me it’d be cheaper but it ended up being way more expensive. I feel a bit misled, well .. because I was. I don't believe set out to do this; I think it is just a bit sloppy but the end result is the same and $400 is a lot right now tbh.
> 
> PS. And if you ARE in the market for a motorised spade...


Audiobro in fact sells the motorised spade for the _best _price if you buy the older spades first. The fact that the overall expenses won’t become less when buying the old spade first should be very logic, right? Which advantage would a salesman have if he lets you pay less once you bought something else? Then he would basically give away the something else for free. But the old ones are not a voucher, they still have value. So that LASS + MSS is more expensive than just MSS should really be a no-brainer.


----------



## Minsky

Casiquire said:


> I didn't realize you emailed them, i thought you just meant this thread. Sorry to misunderstand!


No problem at all! Actually, for the avoidance of doubt, and to be fair to them.. in the emails they did not instruct me to buy LASS. It was more a combination of the emails and the thread and the fact I saw MSS as replacing LASS (which is not their intention). Anyway, I'm talking to them at the moment in order to pass on how I feel (because it's not right for me to moan here but not actually tell them)...I don't expect any reversal of policy (why should they really?) but they are communicating and that restores some faith right off the bat.


----------



## Minsky

CinematiX said:


> Audiobro in fact sells the motorised spade for the _best _price if you buy the older spades first. The fact that the overall expenses won’t become less when buying the old spade first should be very logic, right? Which advantage would a salesman have if he lets you pay less once you bought something else? Then he would basically give away the something else for free. But the old ones are not a voucher, they still have value. So that LASS + MSS is more expensive than just MSS should really be a no-brainer.


I do understand you. I think I misunderstood what they meant when they were suggesting buying LASS to get the cross grade price (and I know that I'm not the only one to have done this). I didn't see it as 2 useful products but rather as one replacing the other. I understand (having spoken with them) that this is not the case.


----------



## Vik

Vik said:


> I wonder if MSS can do stuff like this.



This is also one of my fav. LASS tracks:



I hope MSS will come with a demo or two similar to these tracks, since I wonder if there will be stuff that LASS can do which MSS can't. Did any of you see anything about what the LASS price will be for MSS owners?


----------



## Minsky

Noeticus said:


> Another way to look at it, is that MSS is worth it, even at full price.


I very much hope that it shall be!


----------



## Noeticus

Minsky said:


> I very much hope that it shall be!


It might just be a state of mind.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

New video up 

Aleatoric Close Look


----------



## Casiquire

Paul Jelfs said:


> New video up
> 
> Aleatoric Close Look


YES that's what I wanna know about!


----------



## borisb2

Paul Jelfs said:


> New video up
> 
> Aleatoric Close Look


Nooooo.. wanna hear legato or shorts


----------



## lettucehat

Aleatoric patches, huh... so once again Audiobro continues to show us everything _but _the bread and butter articulations. I can only imagine how terrible the legatos must be at this point. What are they hiding? 

(sarcasm)


----------



## Evans

Fair warning, this technique *will* keep you from writing more music, because you'll get distracted by how fun it is to play around with it.

Evidence: Genesis detune knob, which has that effect on me. Audiobro seems to excel in these non-standard sounds.


----------



## Eptesicus

Wow the aleatoric stuff/FX is a lot more expansive than i thought it would be.


----------



## Noeticus

MSS is GOLD (aleatorically)!!!


----------



## dcoscina

well they are 2 for 2 in my book so far. I've heard a very authentic tone which is what I liked about LASS. It felt less processed and as a result, not synthy. MSS seems more lush but still organic and real. I'm really looking forward to their legato and short art walkthrus.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Eptesicus said:


> Wow the aleatoric stuff/FX is a lot more expansive than i thought it would be.


True. Could have been a separate FX library; that's really much stuff for the money. And it sounds great.


----------



## lettucehat

Yeah I'm really glad I passed on Uist. Strings are my main aleatoric need and this is way more than the detuning and pre-recorded phrases I was expecting.


----------



## Eptesicus

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> True. Could have been a separate FX library; that's really much stuff for the money. And it sounds great.



Yeh, i thought it was just going to be like an ensemble aleatoric patch. Not loads of different effects, many of which being multisampled etc!

Impressive.


----------



## Noeticus

lettucehat said:


> Yeah I'm really glad I passed on Uist. Strings are my main aleatoric need and this is way more than the detuning and pre-recorded phrases I was expecting.


Spitfire "Uist" was a must buy for me. I love it!


----------



## FKVStudio

They are beating me by leaps and bounds. This is fantastic.


----------



## muziksculp

I suspect we will read a few posts from our forum Legato Expert team, saying " Oh.. I hear a bumpy legato at x:yy in this MSS demo/video". once the legato video is out, given this has been a VI-Control trend lately. 

This might be scaring developers from posting legato demos on this forum. It is much safer to show us the Aleatoric/FX stuff first. Since that is what everyone has been waiting for .. correct ?


----------



## Kevinside

hey css legato is godlike...can mss compete


----------



## muziksculp

Kevinside said:


> hey css legato is godlike...can mss compete


Here we go


----------



## shawnsingh

With divisi sections, I think legato already has the potential to be state of the art even if the individual legato transitions are not a gold standard. Two half sections layered together allows humanizing timings and programming different CC curves for each half of the section.


----------



## muziksculp

shawnsingh said:


> even if the individual legato transitions are not a gold standard


But they could be the *Gold Standard* ! Don't discount that.


----------



## rampant

Kevinside said:


> hey css legato is godlike...can mss compete


Honestly, I feel that CSS is over-hyped. Yes, it _sounds_ wonderful; it's not in my templates, though, because I feel like it fights me every time I enter a note. It seems to work for a lot of people, and that's awesome! But with LASS and Spitfire, I can focus more on the writing, not on lining up notes to play in time.

The aleatoric stuff in MSS sounds very useful and promising! Unless I missed something, or they haven't revealed it yet, I will very much miss the flexibility of LASS' aleatoric patches, which -- for anyone here who may not be aware -- allowed you to individually use a CC to de-tune each of the three divisi sections (e.g., Cellos A, Cellos B, and Cellos C) by, and up to, a discrete interval. So Cellos A, for example, could remain at the same pitch, while Cellos B could go up to a M2, and Cellos C could drop by a m3. It was a very useful patch for having that extra level of control!


----------



## muziksculp

Aleatoric Strings are not high on my priority list, or the main reason I would be purchasing MSS, so their importance is very secondary for me. But it's nice to have them, quite honestly, I would not have requested them to be in MSS if they were not included.


----------



## AEF

This library is turning out to be everything I am looking for. If the legatos are nice, this is an instant buy.


----------



## Evans

Oh, my. I like those stabs. Very stabby.


----------



## Vik

muziksculp said:


> Aleatoric Strings are not high on my priority list


Not on mine either, and the same is true for the obstinate functions as well. But note length control, attack control, enough dynamic layers and of course legato is – and it looks as if MSS could end up doing well in several of these areas.


----------



## artomatic

Hey, we're one day closer to the release date!


----------



## borisb2

artomatic said:


> Hey, we're one day closer to the release date!


Of HOOPUS?


----------



## muziksculp

Now the two MSS videos are on YouTube :


----------



## muziksculp

My guess is they will post the Legato video last, mainly because of this forum.  

The next video they post might be showing their new Smart and Automatic Scale Runs


----------



## Casiquire

I think they're clearly showing off the things that really set the library apart--the extras and unexpected things never really heard before. I agree, they're likely to show off the runs builder next. Hopefully leading up to the best they have to offer with the bread and butter.


----------



## ryanstrong

The aleatoric stuff sounds beautiful but I will definitely miss being able to control the Pitch Tune and Modulation Intensity. I loved those patches. Felt like you had complete control over chaos.


----------



## Casiquire

Are you all sure there isn't controlled detuning? I see a huge Detune knob with a little gear by it, indicating there's a deep level of control behind it, which seems similar to what we have in LASS. Also that seems to be what's being referred to here 



dxmachina said:


> Yes, the aleatoric patches in LASS are now a feature that is included in all our more recent releases (Genesis, MSB, and soon MSS). We just call it "Detune" now, but it has all the same features including the discrete settings per divisi. The HUGE advantage it has over what was in LASS is that it can be applied to every articulation.


----------



## dxmachina

> I will very much miss the flexibility of LASS' aleatoric patches





> The aleatoric stuff sounds beautiful but I will definitely miss being able to control the Pitch Tune and Modulation Intensity. I loved those patches.


You won't miss it... because it's _also _included, just not covered in this video.

In fact, in addition to the what we had in LASS, you can now use the per-divisi tuning and modulation across all the articulations. So fire up those Sul pont trems, Sul tasto sustains, harmonics, shorts... anything we've got.


----------



## Raphioli

muziksculp said:


> My guess is they will post the Legato video last, mainly because of this forum.


I'd like to believe that they're "saving the best for last", instead of them being scarred (unconfident) of posting legato videos... /prays


----------



## Kevinside

Interesting, that there is no legato video...

I mean Vista lives from legato...and it works...and was shown before release...


----------



## ryanstrong

dxmachina said:


> You won't miss it... because it's _also _included, just not covered in this video.
> 
> In fact, in addition to the what we had in LASS, you can now use the per-divisi tuning and modulation across all the articulations. So fire up those Sul pont trems, Sul tasto sustains, harmonics, shorts... anything we've got.


Amazing! Thank you for clarifying.


----------



## Casiquire

Kevinside said:


> Interesting, that there is no legato video...
> 
> I mean Vista lives from legato...and it works...and was shown before release...


That's all Vista has 😆 they have almost nothing else to show. MSS seems to offer so much


----------



## rampant

dxmachina said:


> You won't miss it... because it's _also _included, just not covered in this video.
> 
> In fact, in addition to the what we had in LASS, you can now use the per-divisi tuning and modulation across all the articulations. So fire up those Sul pont trems, Sul tasto sustains, harmonics, shorts... anything we've got.


Ah, that’s great! Thanks — I like a little controlled chaos in my string sections


----------



## lettucehat

actually it's not that interesting they haven't released a legato video yet, glad I could clarify this.


----------



## GNP

Damn, MSS looks like a good one to get. Always the most expensive. Argh.


----------



## zimm83

Oh.Gigantic aleatoric section. Fantastic ! 
I want this ! 
This library seems so deep !


----------



## Batrawi

hmm... So with that kind of pattern, I bet next video must be about noise floor.


----------



## maestro2be

That was a very impressive second video. Very useful stuff. I wonder what other cool stuff there is to show? I can think of Shorts, Longs and legatos. I am hoping they put some effort into making pads and synth sounds as well with this library for soundscapes etc. I find all of that useful at times.

If I were AudioBro, I would have fun with all the complaints about not seeing Legato's and make you wait for the last video on that. Besides being a fun way to poke your grumbly bear button, it will ensure we all get to see all the other features it offers that you might turn your head and say you don't need/care about, only to find you actually just might want/need it. I see things like the Aleatoric demo as validation that it can help consolidate other areas of my template and possibly simplify my workflow.

I have to say though as a chuckle, some of the comments that get made her are just hilarious, although I am sure your intentions are not meant to be. Are we really comparing a single, one shot, legato only library to a complete full sections library with divisi, aleatoric FX, shorts, longs, legatos, Ponts, etc. etc. and god knows what else we haven't even seen yet lol? Also it's not the most expensive. There's definitely other libraries that cost more and from what I am seeing so far, less useful.


----------



## zimm83

maestro2be said:


> That was a very impressive second video. Very useful stuff. I wonder what other cool stuff there is to show? I can think of Shorts, Longs and legatos. I am hoping they put some effort into making pads and synth sounds as well with this library for soundscapes etc. I find all of that useful at times.
> 
> If I were AudioBro, I would have fun with all the complaints about not seeing Legato's and make you wait for the last video on that. Besides being a fun way to poke your grumbly bear button, it will ensure we all get to see all the other features it offers that you might turn your head and say you don't need/care about, only to find you actually just might want/need it. I see things like the Aleatoric demo as validation that it can help consolidate other areas of my template and possibly simplify my workflow.
> 
> I have to say though as a chuckle, some of the comments that get made her are just hilarious, although I am sure your intentions are not meant to be. Are we really comparing a single, one shot, legato only library to a complete full sections library with divisi, aleatoric FX, shorts, longs, legatos, Ponts, etc. etc. and god knows what else we haven't even seen yet lol? Also it's not the most expensive. There's definitely other libraries that cost more and from what I am seeing so far, less useful.


+ full first chairs !


----------



## easyrider

I want this company to change their name to audioperson 😂


----------



## maestro2be

Yes I totally forgot about 1st chairs! Definitely want this to be excellent as well! It sure would be nice if it truly can act as that beautiful soaring section leader that I have longed for and just never felt happy with the results of combining solo string libraries on top of it.

As an added bonus, if it can also do some simple solo sectional string pieces that will be an added bonus.


----------



## FireGS

easyrider said:


> I want this company to change their name to audioperson 😂


Why not AudioBra? >_>


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

easyrider said:


> I want this company to change their name to audioperson


As well as being pointlessly off-topic, this also belies a lack of understanding of the differences between the word 'bro' and the word 'slut'.

Anyway, the aleotoric stuff sounds super useful, but I really want to hear the main bread & butter legato and see how playable it is as an all-in-one patch. Fingers crossed!


----------



## easyrider

Richard Wilkinson said:


> As well as being pointlessly off-topic, this also belies a lack of understanding of the differences between the word 'bro' and the word 'slut'.


I understand completely....I was being sarcastic...Maybe it’s my UK sense of humour....

The meaning of the word doesn’t actually matter....

Are you British? If not don’t worry I understand why you didn’t get it....


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

Very British! Just looked like you were equating one pretty mysoginistic and hurtful word with a relatively harmless one, to make a joke. Don't think it landed as squarely as you might have hoped, but hey - no harm done


----------



## FireGS

FireGS said:


> Why not AudioBra? >_>


AudioManzier? Ill show myself out.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

dxmachina said:


> You won't miss it... because it's _also _included, just not covered in this video.
> 
> In fact, in addition to the what we had in LASS, you can now use the per-divisi tuning and modulation across all the articulations. So fire up those Sul pont trems, Sul tasto sustains, harmonics, shorts... anything we've got.


Hey Dxmachina, (Sorry I do not know your real name  ) 

Are you able to update ups about how the timing is looking for this Library? Still End of January, or has it slipped back due to the COVID situtation ? 

I must say, all that happens when you put up a new video, is you make us want to here more - Its a bit like being a Child getting to shake their Main present on Xmas Eve....... 

Do you have a schedule for the videos ? (It seems 5-6 days currently!) 

What colour are the shoes of the Cello Leaders? ! 

What food does your cat eat? ! We need more information !!!!!! 

In all seriouness, It all sounds so silky and lovely so far ! 

You know you could probably sell those Aleotoric's as its own library ! 

Now doubt you should certainly do a MSS junior in the future, as I can see that being very popular too.


PJ


----------



## mcalis

Repeat after me:

I don't need another string library...

I don't need another string library...

I don't need another string library...

I don't need another string library...


----------



## muziksculp

mcalis said:


> Repeat after me:
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...


Now Repeat it many more times, without the 'don't' part. You will feel much better.


----------



## Laddy

Could this be it? The holy grail?


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

mcalis said:


> Repeat after me:
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...


Well affirmations only go so far... If your subconscious doesn't believe it you are lost


----------



## shawnsingh

mcalis said:


> Repeat after me:
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...
> 
> I don't need another string library...



I don't _need_ another string library.
But, MSS might be one I _want_...


----------



## Evans

I would like another video, please.


----------



## FireGS




----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Noeticus

I can't take it any more, the dripping sound is deafening!!!

MSS looks like GOLD to me!!!


----------



## yellow_lupine

11 days left


----------



## muziksculp

yellow_lupine said:


> 11 days left


They mention it will be available by 'The End of January' they didn't specify Jan. 31st.

So, I'm guessing that 'End of Jan.' could also mean during the last few days of Jan. , so it could possibly be released earlier than 11 days from today.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

ESTIMATED release by the end of January. 😂🙈


----------



## Noeticus

Dear AudioBro Geniuses,

Can you update us as to if MSS will indeed be released (all being well) by the end of January?


----------



## novaburst

Well one thing i can say is this new library is coursing a lot of suspense its almost like a composition with a very interesting build, i think its attracted a lot of attention for an epic ending .......wait i hear the drum roll .........yes the conductor closes his eyes the violin ensembles gets ready .......the drum roll comes to a silent crescendo the star of the piece are getting ready for an epic entrance...wait what is that sound yes i hear strings the players close their eyes and the beautiful Le..............................please tune next week guys for conclusion of this epic piece


----------



## Russell Anderson

Richard Wilkinson said:


> As well as being pointlessly off-topic, this also belies a lack of understanding of the differences between the word 'bro' and the word 'slut'.


What happened here? Who said anything about or related to “slut”? Is this a UK thing?

It made perfect sense to me as a joke with no sideways undertones

On topic, I’m excited to see how te rest of it sounds. Not that I can afford it anyway, but it may be something to save for. I’ve been saving for CSS but, you know, this could be good.


----------



## Casiquire

Russell Anderson said:


> What happened here? Who said anything about or related to “slut”? Is this a UK thing?
> 
> It made perfect sense to me as a joke with no sideways undertones
> 
> On topic, I’m excited to see how te rest of it sounds. Not that I can afford it anyway, but it may be something to save for. I’ve been saving for CSS but, you know, this could be good.


Because of the big controversial thread about renaming gearslutz. The comment read as a reference to that thread


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> Because of the big controversial thread about renaming gearslutz. The comment read as a reference to that thread


OT, but thanks for clarifying this. Hadn’t heard of that kerfuffle, so the reaction to easyrider’s joke seemed quite strange.

Back on-topic … I wonder if the Audiobro crew plans on releasing one video every few days. At this rate they’ll have only covered a fraction of the library’s features before it’s released, assuming it does happen before the end of the month.

(Also: Is it maybe unrealistic to hope they have some setting that replicates a flautando tone? As it is that’s basically the only articulation I’d really like that’s missing from this one.)


----------



## Batrawi

Noc said:


> Is it maybe unrealistic to hope they have some setting that replicates a flautando tone?


They recorded Sul Tasto, which is basically flautando


----------



## Noeticus

Batrawi said:


> They recorded Sul Tasto, which is basically flautando


I concur. 

Hopefully the lower bow pressure from the lower dynamics on the Sul Tasto on MSS will give us the Flautando some of us seek.


----------



## dxmachina

> Can you update us as to if MSS will indeed be released (all being well) by the end of January?


We're doing our best. 



> Do you have a schedule for the videos ? (It seems 5-6 days currently!)


Pretty much as soon as they're ready. We're able to dedicate a lot more time to them now, so I think they'll start to come faster pretty soon. 



> What colour are the shoes of the Cello Leaders? !


We confiscate all shoes for fear of foot tapping.



> What food does your cat eat? ! We need more information !!!!!!


Wife _claims_ to be allergic, so we're a dog house. Dog eats duck, but mostly dreams about peanut butter cookies.



> They recorded Sul Tasto, which is basically flautando


I think between Sul Tasto and harmonics you will be very happy.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

dxmachina said:


> We're doing our best.
> 
> 
> Pretty much as soon as they're ready. We're able to dedicate a lot more time to them now, so I think they'll start to come faster pretty soon.
> 
> 
> We confiscate all shoes for fear of foot tapping.
> 
> 
> Wife _claims_ to be allergic, so we're a dog house. Dog eats duck, but mostly dreams about peanut butter cookies.
> 
> 
> I think between Sul Tasto and harmonics you will be very happy.


I appreciate you taking the time to answer those questions - especially about those naughty Cellists that won't stay still in Class.

Weirdly enough when I wanted a Puppy or Kitten , my wife was allergic. But then she wanted a cat, then a puppy , then another one. And you can guess who got their way and when. 

Being Serious for a minute, is the "Crunch" as they call it in the video game industry (Working silly hours in the weeks leading up to a release) also a thing in the Audio industry? 

I imagine it will be, but because we are talking much smaller teams, It is mainly the owners / bosses that do the crunch as opposed to the much bigger employed staff/ teams at game developers ? 

Or are there more people involved then you would maybe think (for sample releases ) ? 


Cheers

PJ


----------



## yellow_lupine

When you develop your own product and have not any owners/bosses other than yourself, you inevitably end up working all the day and night...


----------



## Paul Jelfs

yellow_lupine said:


> When you develop your own product and have not any owners/bosses other than yourself, you inevitably end up working all the day and night...


Though some of the bigger companies like Native Instruments employ hundreds if not thousands. I wonder if the problem of crunch exists in these types of companies (The largest ones)


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Paul Jelfs said:


> Though some of the bigger companies like Native Instruments employ hundreds if not thousands. I wonder if the problem of crunch exists in these types of companies (The largest ones)




EDIT oh and good old Bergy Ringer. Though they do not do samples. YET.....


----------



## muziksculp

Evans said:


> Hi! I'm ready for another video or two.


Me too. Where are the videos.. or do we need to pay for them ?


----------



## Noeticus

I say here and now that I will be buying MSS as soon as I can.

I already have LASS and MSB.


----------



## Raphioli

Besides the walkthrough videos, I'm curious what's going on with the demos.

They planned to release MSS last year, so I'm assuming the demos are already done.
So it would be greatly appreciated if we could listen to a demo or two, since we only have a week till the end of Jan 

Thx!


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Please can you show us more videos ? We wont tell the rest of the internet  

Your secret is safe with US.


----------



## lettucehat

Yeah that's something I don't get. It must be a conscious choice, unlike the slow trickle of videos, which is the result of it being just two guys doing it as fast as they can. You would think demos get farmed out to a few hand-picked third party composers, so they must be waiting until the actual release. Or maybe they have accompanying videos. I'm dying here but can't complain.


----------



## Noc

The funny thing is I’m working on a piece right now that has an extended sul tasto passage, and I don’t have any string libraries with sul tasto (only thing close is Spitfire Symphonic Strings, which has “super sul tasto”, which is way too soft), so I’m just using LASS con sordino as a placeholder for now, and I’m really hoping MSS will come out soon enough that I can grab it and shove that sul tasto in this piece before I have to finish it with some other alternative.

EDIT: I just noticed – 50 pages in and almost a thousand posts in this thread before MSS is even released! And to think the venerable CSW hype thread had two years to grow to the same length, whilst this one’s only been here a couple months.


----------



## Eptesicus

Noc said:


> The funny thing is I’m working on a piece right now that has an extended sul tasto passage, and I don’t have any string libraries with sul tasto (only thing close is Spitfire Symphonic Strings, which has “super sul tasto”, which is way too soft), so I’m just using LASS con sordino as a placeholder for now, and I’m really hoping MSS will come out soon enough that I can grab it and shove that sul tasto in this piece before I have to finish it with some other alternative.
> 
> EDIT: I just noticed – 50 pages in and almost a thousand posts in this thread before MSS is even released! And to think the venerable CSW hype thread had two years to grow to the same length, whilst this one’s only been here a couple months.



The original CSW thread went well over 100 pages I believe.


----------



## Noc

Eptesicus said:


> The original CSW thread went well over 100 pages I believe.


Yeah, but it was only at page 54 (IIRC) when Alex posted his “coming soon” announcement a couple months back or so. It then exploded with renewed hype, and _then_ CSW came out …


----------



## muziksculp

Any chance we will get to watch another video today ?


----------



## yellow_lupine

muziksculp said:


> Any chance we will get to watch another video today ?


That would be great!


----------



## ChristianM

muziksculp said:


> Any chance we will get to watch another video today ?


As soon as it will be available, you will be able to play for 1000 years with it!


----------



## Kevinside

So january is ending very soon...Will it be released or delayed to februrary...


----------



## WinterEmerald

Kevinside said:


> So january is ending very soon...Will it be released or delayed to februrary...


I would bet money we're going to see this delayed...


----------



## Noeticus

WinterEmerald said:


> I would bet money we're going to see this delayed...


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

I'm fine.


----------



## WinterEmerald

Noeticus said:


> Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
> 
> I'm fine.


Just getting that sneaky feeling, which is a shame but what can you do


----------



## muziksculp

If MSS development is completed, what is taking so long to post a few more videos ? 

Or is MSS still in development ? If it is, I doubt we will see it released end of Jan.


----------



## maestro2be

I am just curious how often do you make videos yourself to show off something or how great you are at something? I don't mean that negatively, just that I feel that videos are a little more difficult to do well and produce something of quality than perhaps some might think. It could just be me though .

I know when I start feeling extremely anxious and cannot stop obsessing over waiting on someone or something my time is much better spent doing something productive and turning my attention away from the thing I am obsessing over wondering why it's not here yet.


----------



## muziksculp

Come on, we are not asking for a blockbuster epic video here, just some short videos showing various features of this library, surely that doesn't take more than a day or two max to make a few videos.


----------



## WinterEmerald

maestro2be said:


> I am just curious how often do you make videos yourself to show off something or how great you are at something? I don't mean that negatively, just that I feel that videos are a little more difficult to do well and produce something of quality than perhaps some might think. It could just be me though .
> 
> I know when I start feeling extremely anxious and cannot stop obsessing over waiting on someone or something my time is much better spent doing something productive and turning my attention away from the thing I am obsessing over wondering why it's not here yet.


So if I'm looking at this situation as optimistically as possible then I am in agreement, I think them taking their time with videos and demos is possibly due to the fact they really want to make sure they are literally PERFECT (based on their standards). We've all been waiting for this library for years, so it makes sense that them releasing actual demos showcases as good as it can be, as we all have super high expectations, and they want to ensure the maximum commercial potential by not showing disappointing demos.

This is my optimistic take on it, but I can't help but be worried!


----------



## Kevinside

No,no and no

@muziksculp

I want a Blockbuster Video showing everything with perfect CGI and big Drama and a lot of Action and Overacting... in Disney Quality 

So where is my dammed Avengers MSS ultra multi universal infinite apocalypse time travel super video?....

MSS does not mean Marvel Super Strings???
damm

@WinterEmerald

Videos are not important, but the release date is...and of course some demos...
Important for me personally, cause i must plan my investments...


----------



## WinterEmerald

Kevinside said:


> No,no and no
> 
> @muziksculp
> 
> I want a Blockbuster Video showing everything with perfect CGI and big Drama and a lot of Action and Overacting... in Disney Quality
> 
> So where is my dammed Avengers MSS ultra multi universal infinite apocalypse time travel super video?....
> 
> MSS does not mean Marvel Super Strings???
> damm
> 
> @WinterEmerald
> 
> Videos are not important, but the release date is...and of course some demos...
> Important for me personally, cause i must plan my investments...


Of course the release date and demos are super important, but the videos *are *demos in themselves, it's giving us pretty straightforward examples of how this is going to sound, though I am anxious to hear their legato and other elements. So far, I am hugely impressed and likewise, I need to plan my purchases. I really hope we get it at the end of this month but yeah, wouldn't be surprised. I didn't really have a lot of optimism in the answer I saw in the forum.


----------



## Kevinside

I agree @WinterEmerald


----------



## muziksculp

dxmachina said:


> Pretty much as soon as they're ready. We're able to dedicate a lot more time to them now, so I think they'll start to come faster pretty soon.


Looking forward to seeing more videos being released, faster


----------



## Evans

*Even* *if *MSB was a big, low key hit, the reactions here on it from *non-users* would warrant caution for a new release.

I'm pleased that they were so up front with the pricing. I'm very interested in a new video. But I don't blame them for taking their sweet time.

(edited for brevity)


----------



## muziksculp

Evans said:


> My assumption is that MSB wasn't a big hit (I'm not entirely sure why... I'm still curious about it, but people don't seem wild about it here despite only a few comments from actual owners), so there's got to be a lot riding on this release. It makes sense that they're being cautious with the rollout of content.
> 
> I'm pleased that they were so up front with the pricing. I'm very interested in a new video. But I don't blame them for taking their sweet time.


Well, I think if MSS is ready for release, and is a fantastic sounding library, it will sell itself, they don't need to make believe anything. The Library is what it is, and they are the developers, not new users, so It should be straight forward for them to showcase what they have, no magic tricks needed.


----------



## WinterEmerald

muziksculp said:


> Looking forward to seeing more videos being released, faster


Yeah that's another point. Them saying they can dedicate more time to them means it must be virtually there, unless they're now only releasing videos as the relative articulations they're showcasing are fully completed programming-wise, which could mean a delay if there's still much to do


----------



## muziksculp

So, is this library not complete as far as development is concerned ? 

Are they still fine-tuning it ? 

Has it been sent to NI for encoding, or not yet. If it is not completed yet, that means they have not yet sent it for NI encoding, which means it won't be out this month, maybe Feb. then ?


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Well, I think if MSS is ready for release, and is a fantastic sounding library, it will sell itself, they don't need to make believe anything. The Library is what it is, and they are the developers, not new users, so It should be straight forward for them to showcase what they have, no magic tricks needed.


I'm not so sure! The users of MSB seem to like it a lot but it didn't get much traction in the forums. Marketing is still important. Of course we can't assume it didn't sell well just because it doesn't get full attention here. I've been surprised by sales figures and polls here in the past. But lucky for them the hype seems to be on their side with this release


----------



## muziksculp

WinterEmerald said:


> Yeah that's another point. Them saying they can dedicate more time to them means it must be virtually there, unless they're now only releasing videos as the relative articulations they're showcasing are fully completed programming-wise, which could mean a delay if there's still much to do


Well... If that's the case, this would surely move the release date to Feb.


----------



## Evans

Are you, like, expecting this for an urgent project?


----------



## yellow_lupine

@dxmachina 
Hello,
could you please tell us if the library will be available in the following week?


----------



## muziksculp

Evans said:


> Are you, like, expecting this for an urgent project?


No, I'm not, and I have many other string libraries, but that's not the point here. 

We are discussing the release of a new Strings Library that has an estimated release date of end of Jan. if it is not on time, then it will be out in Feb. As if I'm the only one here who wants to see MSS released ASAP. I don't get it.


----------



## Vik

Maybe, just maybe, the developers sometimes launch their products in ways which will trigger long threads on forums – maybe over weeks or more; threads which boost the interest in and focus on an upcoming product. And I don't blame them, they need to make money like everyone else, espeifcally nowadays. But as long as the word 'estimated' is in there, I assume that there will be delays. 

If I should choose between 'we always keep a promise about release date' and 'we always wait with releasing a library until we have sorted out all the stuff we need to fix', I'd definitely go for the latter – by large margins. And that goes for demos and walkthroughs too. 

Besides, we have seen libraries that are better demonstrated by user examples than company demos, and also seen demos which sound quite good even with libraries which struggles with some unresolved issues. And since the quality of the demos demos can brake it or make it for sample libraries, I actually hope they take the time they need – because sometimes, when I've heard disappointing demos which are followed up by improved demos later/demos with an improved version of the library, I don't always check those updates. So personally, I guess I – if the estimated release date for the library and demos end of January – kind of expect mid-March (for companies that are serious about fine-tuning and bugfixes).


----------



## maestro2be

I am quite sure everyone here agrees with you and wants it released as well. I would just think that as a library developer, all the comments here are annoying as hell and pestering and would drive me to never give you anything again until the day it's released. It's no wonder some companies do that. It's impossible to keep up with all the negativity that surrounds them the moment they open their mouths.

But on the other side, I see the cause lol. I mean, I really want these strings to be released as well and tempting me with how good they sound so far has me definitely wanting an instant buy. I personally feel that it's sometimes best to just let people focus on what they're doing and let them finish. At the same time, it does sometimes help to know what people want to navigate things accordingly. It's a tough call lol.

I don't know about you, but I run teams of people from US soil to foreign countries and it's incredibly distracting to have management from every team constantly nagging me for updates on things they have already been told 100 times. Yet, they literally want to hear every day before release that yup, we're still good. It's unhealthy and doesn't help productivity. acknowledging the person and giving them what they want only makes it worse because they never stop.

Do you want them here all day answering these nonstop questions and making videos or do you want them to get the library finished? Me, I know I want both lol but, I feel like letting them capitalize on the time they have will ensure they are able to maximize that time and deliver what they are saying/promising. I mean do you think they somehow forgot since the last time they told us? They know what they said and they know what deadline they set. I for one would rather let them have the short time they have left to try to pull through and get it done instead of blasting them with negativity all day every day. Just my opinion for what that's worth.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Whenever it is out, I'll be there to buy it ... I love all the "extras" this can do. I just hope the main string sound lives up to what we've seen so far.


----------



## Evans

Vik said:


> If I should choose between 'we always keep a promise about release date' and 'we always wait with releasing a library until we have sorted out all the stuff we need to fix', I'd definitely go for the latter – by large margins.


I'm with you, except for when there's a push for pre-orders or subscription to a service and a subsequent delay. 

That's not the case here, but it is elsewhere.


----------



## WinterEmerald

muziksculp said:


> So, is this library not complete as far as development is concerned ?
> 
> Are they still fine-tuning it ?
> 
> Has it been sent to NI for encoding, or not yet. If it is not completed yet, that means they have not yet sent it for NI encoding, which means it won't be out this month, maybe Feb. then ?


Looking at their answer which was "We're doing our best", it's either going to be a case of it being done in time for the end of January, or it's going to go into February. Thinking about it further, we can assume it's not 100% done yet, though obviously in excellent shape since they said they can dedicate time to videos.

Also, I obviously want them to release a product they are happy with and I'd personally want to buy the best possible version of it. It's only disappointing for me and I'd gather all of us, because we obviously are just so damn excited.


----------



## novaburst

WinterEmerald said:


> So if I'm looking at this situation as optimistically as possible then I am in agreement, I think them taking their time with videos and demos is possibly due to the fact they really want to make sure they are literally PERFECT (based on their standards). We've all been waiting for this library for years, so it makes sense that them releasing actual demos showcases as good as it can be, as we all have super high expectations, and they want to ensure the maximum commercial potential by not showing disappointing demos.
> 
> This is my optimistic take on it, but I can't help but be worried!


I think library development are like words once released it will come with all the good stuff but also the bad issue's and you cant really take it back

Ok maybe i can apologize if i said a bad word to you but it will still leave a bad taste in your mind but over time you will get over it.

With a library when there are issues weather by mistake or a cant be bothered attitude it is very hard to say sorry as people have spent their hard earned cash and that is very difficult to deal with.

i am guessing a release perhaps the middle of this year giving we are not in normal times and the time we are living in effects every one in different ways


----------



## WinterEmerald

novaburst said:


> I think library development are like words once released it will come with all the good stuff but also the bad issue's and you cant really take it back
> 
> Ok maybe i can apologize if i said a bad word to you but it will still leave a bad taste in your mind but over time you will get over it.
> 
> With a library when there are issues weather by mistake or a cant be bothered attitude it is very hard to say sorry as people have spent their hard earned cash and that is very difficult to deal with.
> 
> i am guessing a release perhaps the middle of this year giving we are not in normal times and the time we are living in effects every one in different ways


I do certainly understand that they wouldn't want to release a library until they're 100% happy with it and neither would I do it any other way if I was a developer. On the same vein, if I'm going to spend money on something, I want it to be worth it. We're all just excited about this.


----------



## Noeticus

If MSS does not already do this, I would like to see the articulation detail name when pressing a key etc. on their aleatoric patches.

When watching the aleatoric video, the voice over tells what some of them are, but I do not see it appear in the MSS GUI. 

If the manual lists these details then that would be nice as well.


----------



## muziksculp

novaburst said:


> i am guessing a release perhaps the middle of this year giving we are not in normal times and the time we are living in effects every one in different ways


----------



## dcoscina

Had another play of their Ostinato video. Damn, this is tasty. I need this.. seriously.


----------



## maestro2be

Noeticus said:


> If MSS does not already do this, I would like to see the articulation detail name when pressing a key etc. on their aleatoric patches.
> 
> When watching the aleatoric video, the voice over tells what some of them are, but I do not see it appear in the MSS GUI.
> 
> If the manual lists these details then that would be nice as well.


I think that's something I would find useful as well.


----------



## shponglefan

muziksculp said:


> Let me predict, Once it's released, Someone will be posting this :
> 
> "Oh.. the legatos are bumpy here. I can't use this library."
> 
> Given this has been a pretty popular type of complaint on VI-C for almost every new Strings library released after CSS.


They could always go the Abbey Road One route...


----------



## muziksculp

shponglefan said:


> They could always go the Abbey ONE route...


Hehe.. Yes, so far no legatos have been shown, We are still in the safety zone, but they will eventually have to show them if they want to sell this library, and then a flood of VI-C Legato comments will follow.

Oooh It's a bit Bumpy here, and a little Bumpy there, No, No, it's Not Bumpy at all, OH.. I heard a Bump here, No it's not, it's as smooth as silk, ...etc. etc.


----------



## Kevinside

So Sample Libraries have found their conclusion in the video game world...
Release Date announced...then delay...then delay...then delay...and then another delay...
EW is the leader of this with HWOpus, which should be released shortly after their absolutely gorgeous presentation at Namm,LOL... And MSS follow this....

Their fault is to present us a release date in the first place...
Better work out everything and then go to the public...but to announce a release date?... In most cases, it never worked in the past...

And don´t blame the people in the forums, who are angry then... Its not their fault...cause if a company does everything in marketing with a release date...People believe it...And if all this promise was a lie, people can get upset...and i understand that....


----------



## maestro2be

Kevinside said:


> So Sample Libraries have found their conclusion in the video game world...
> Release Date announced...then delay...then delay...then delay...and then another delay...
> EW is the leader of this with HWOpus, which should be released shortly after their absolutely gorgeous presentation at Namm,LOL... And MSS follow this....
> 
> Their fault is to present us a release date in the first place...
> Better work out everything and then go to the public...but to announce a release date?... In most cases, it never worked in the past...
> 
> And don´t blame the people in the forums, who are angry then... Its not their fault...cause if a company does everything in marketing with a release date...People believe it...And if all this promise was a lie, people can get upset...and i understand that....


You said MSS follow this. Do you know something we all don’t? Do you have a personal relationship with Andrew and he has told you it’s delayed? Perhaps you’re a family member and have inside information to make once again as you have already time and time again made yourself look like a fool. Do you actually even hear yourself when you type?


----------



## Kevinside

Don´t be rude, but to be honest...end of january won´t happen...If MSS really sees its release in the promised time frame, which was the official announcement: end of january...Then it would be great for me and all the customers, who want that library...So lets count the days?


----------



## Raphioli

When I came back to the forum and saw the page count suddenly growing,
I thought there was another video out or even maybe even was released. I hate you guys lol

Anyways I can see both sides.



Kevinside said:


> Release Date announced...then delay...then delay...then delay...and then another delay...


IF it is delayed, then I can see where Kevin is coming from.
Someone gave Cyberpunk as an example. Yes, its best for something to be release when its ready.
But at the same time, delaying it over and over doesn't really make them look good. (in terms of planning/management)



maestro2be said:


> You said MSS follow this. Do you know something we all don’t? Do you have a personal relationship with Andrew and he has told you it’s delayed?


But then again, like maestro has said, we don't know anything yet.
Maybe a bunch of videos and demos will suddenly be uploaded during the last week of Jan :D
But I did have a hunch that it might be delayed around mid-Jan (page 39).
I'm hoping I'm wrong of course!


Unexpected things can happen during development, so IF they are going to delay it again, I think its better to announce a delay for several months, just in case something goes wrong again.

But if I'm not mistaken, I think I saw that the delay was only due to paperwork and not wanting to cram the release right before holidays. So that certainly gave me the impression that the library was already done in terms of development. And videos and demos were mostly ready.
Or considering the date of initial announcement, maybe they wanted us to hold on to our BF money, so they ended up announcing it a bit too early? (Who knows?)


----------



## maestro2be

Kevinside said:


> Don´t be rude, but to be honest...end of january won´t happen...If MSS really sees its release in the promised time frame, which was the official announcement: end of january...Then it would be great for me and all the customers, who want that library...So lets count the days?


I am hoping that end of January does happen. There's still time of course but there's also still time for them to come say it's delayed. It's just that we don't know that for a fact yet until they say it.

I certainly do wonder what video Andrew plans to show next. I mean they could easily do shorts or other things things before legatos. My only guess is that as I said a few pages ago, perhaps they are wanting to highlight the areas that perhaps people might turn their back on or think they don't want/need them and once we see them, it adds to the whole glory of the library. I myself know it, and I am sure they know that most people here will judge on legato. So that video will be the heavyweight contender video and might be the last one we see lol. Right now we're just getting all the exhibition videos leading up to it.

I really do hope they knock the sustains and legatos out of the park and that the Divisi sounds beautiful alone but also when the sections combine it truly sounds like one larger ensemble. If that happens and then on top of that, the solo instruments are a total knockout of the park, this might become the string library to beat.

I know it may not be everybody's thing but I do hope that the new engine gives incredible soundscapes and pads with the new strings with ease as well. That's not really a requirement out of the gate, but at least at some point that would be really nice. I still use that sort of stuff.


----------



## maestro2be

Raphioli said:


> When I came back to the forum and saw the page count suddenly growing,
> I thought there was another video out or even maybe even was released. I hate you guys lol
> 
> Anyways I can see both sides.
> 
> 
> IF it is delayed, then I can see where Kevin is coming from.
> Someone gave Cyberpunk as an example. Yes, its best for something to be release when its ready.
> But at the same time, delaying it over and over doesn't really make them look good. (in terms of planning/management)
> 
> 
> But then again, like maestro has said, we don't know anything yet.
> Maybe a bunch of videos and demos will suddenly be uploaded during the last week of Jan :D
> But I did have a hunch that it might be delayed around mid-Jan (page 39).
> I'm hoping I'm wrong of course!
> 
> 
> Unexpected things can happen during development, so IF they are going to delay it again, I think its better to announce a delay for several months, just in case something goes wrong again.
> 
> But if I'm not mistaken, I think I saw that the delay was only due to paperwork and not wanting to cram the release right before holidays. So that certainly gave me the impression that the library was already done in terms of development. And videos and demos were mostly ready.
> Or considering the date of initial announcement, maybe they wanted us to hold on to our BF money, so they ended up announcing it a bit too early? (Who knows?)


That's hilarious. I too, constantly watch this thread for growth hoping to see a new uploaded video but unfortunately for now, all you get is us geezers (ok at least I am one) making speculation and nitpicking details of what things might mean and how things might turn out . I think we all can agree on one thing, we are all "impatiently for the most part" awaiting the release of this library and more videos .


----------



## Dopplereffect

Although I'm also pretty excited for this one, I'd prefer them to take their time and pushing the release date, if that means the library is in the best possible shape when it releases.

Most of us probably have had some experience buying a product that was way too buggy upon release and most of us probably didn't like that neither.

If I have to choose between early release but being both a buying costumer and a pseudo-beta-tester at the same time, or a late(r) release date BUT being able to enjoy a product that works fine as is, I choose the latter...


----------



## novaburst

Kevinside said:


> .People believe it...And if all this promise was a lie, people can get upset...and i understand that....


There always is an intended time of release for most things in life, i mean have you ever promised to get to a meeting on time, you started out very early to get there 20 min before the start, but there was an accident a mile ahead of you that made very late or even to cancel your presence at the meeting, 

What we are talking is unforeseen circumstances are not lies they are events that happen out of our control but can have a bad effect on us indirectly but you had nothing to do with it,

Software can be very bewildering sometimes you can get blind sided very often, so a month ago i turned on my machine only to find the elicense was giving me strange messages about my license that the licence was not full or something to that respect and that i did not have full rights i thought WHAAAAAT, i started trying all kinds of things to sort the issue out but to no avail but wasted so much time until i did a reinstall of the dongle license not an update.

It turned out Windows 10 had updated and screwed everything up so who was blindsided here me or the developers, it was not me how could i know that would happen.

It was the developers who got blindsided, and even up until now there has been no update to sort this issue out 

What these things can lead one to do is go around thinking its a driver issue or a program issue and you end up uninstalling reinstalling wasting so much time by then you have screwed up your stable system by changing settings and the list just goes on 

we always blame something or some one when actually it was not the case 

So lets just take this with a pinch of salt because we really don't know anything unless we are there in the developers studio

One thing i would say is the longer it takes for the library to be released the better because it means i can save up some cash to purchase it  

Ok jokes aside the longer the better we all have experienced a library that has been pushed out just to meet a dead line how frustrating and unfair that can make us feel.

I would rather encourage a developer to take as much time as they possibly can to bring out the best development they can possibly do so that creation has a very lasting effect on us.

So deadline not really important, demos ok maybe, but a great library when ever its ready even 10 months after the deadline ya hooo who would not want that, stuff the deadline just give me a great product


----------



## ChristianM

Cool ! Audiobro is still on schedule!


----------



## Noeticus

The AudioBro MSS Aleatoric demo is worth the whole price to me, as I love 
Aleatoric string effects, and it looks like they have chosen the articulations well


----------



## yellow_lupine

I wonder why they did not include a solo bass


----------



## Vik

These threads would be a lot shorter if they called the initial release ‘public beta with free update to the release version’. Some of us would be happy to buy a public beta for the same price as the introductory price.


----------



## Evans

sinkd said:


> Great mockup. I really like MSB as well, but it does have a learning curve. And a processor hit in VEPro that I am a little bit worried about with MSS.


Hi! Can you provide additional detail regarding MSB and VEPro? I'm aware of some general issues with CPU/RAM (and have followed the similar Audiobro topics for Genesis, which I bought and love), but is there additional issue with MSB in VEPro? 

I'm interested in picking it up, but it would definitely be on a secondary server. Thanks!


----------



## muziksculp

OK. Exactly one week left in Jan. , so the countdown to a end of Jan. release begins today, next Sunday is Jan. 31st.


----------



## FireGS

yellow_lupine said:


> I wonder why they did not include a solo bass


It's rarely done. I don't know why. CSSS doesn't, either, and that sucks.


----------



## artomatic

This thread is really starting to sound like the HOOPUS thread!


----------



## novaburst

Evans said:


> Hi! Can you provide additional detail regarding MSB and VEPro? I'm aware of some general issues with CPU/RAM (and have followed the similar Audiobro topics for Genesis, which I bought and love), but is there additional issue with MSB in VEPro?
> 
> I'm interested in picking it up, but it would definitely be on a secondary server. Thanks!


You have two versions of the library to down load, there is a fully mixed version that is very light on ram and cpu, there is also the mic version that can be a little power hungry you can down load all versions then choose what one to use.


----------



## Russell Anderson

So far the library sounds good, I'm excited to hear what the new videos(s) will hold, how the legato sounds (of course) etc. Do not care about release date, take an extra 6 weeks for all I care.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

New video is online: Shorts & Mics


----------



## Dopplereffect

Not that we didn't know this already, but this library seems like it will be VERY comprehensive!


----------



## Igorianych

I seem to be slowpoke, but I just now realized that there are no 1 and 2 violins ...


----------



## turnerofwheels

The new shorts mode video looks nice, kind of like CSS with a CC slider for 4 different lengths. (Also, the articulations page lists Violins 1 and 2, I wonder how that works if the videos only show "violins"..)


----------



## Dopplereffect

Igorianych said:


> I seem to be slowpoke, but I just now realized that there are no 1 and 2 violins ...


As far as I can tell they did indeed record seperate Violins I and Violins II this time (unlike in LASS that is...)


----------



## Dopplereffect

SHANE TURNER said:


> The new shorts mode video looks nice, kind of like CSS with a CC slider for 4 different lengths. (Also, the articulations page lists Violins 1 and 2, I wonder how that works if the videos only show "violins"..)


My guess is that they have (among other combinations) a single patch that combines Violins I (A), Violins I (B), Violins II (A) and Violins II (B).


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

There are dedicated Violins I and Violins II sections, but this seems to be a violin-all patch like in NI Symphony Series Strings. For sure you will be able to choose which divisi sections play. Would be strange if not.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Pacino/Ricky Roma voice: **Give me the legatos!**


----------



## muziksculp

Wow ! Great sounding Shorts 

Shorts are super crucial for me. Nice tools to customize them as well. Also like the multiple options to switch between the various short articulations, i.e. CC, vel, inv. vel., ..etc.

They also sound very nice with no Reverb/IR applied. They must have used some very high-quality Ribbon mics for the close mics. 

Thanks AudioBro. Looking forward to more videos.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Yes, shorts are indeed niiice. They were already great in LASS. I also love the room sound in general, not too small, not too big.

If only SySI/SSP shorts would sound like this, then this would be a better library. Don't like the shorts at all.


----------



## dxmachina

Sorry if I missed some questions... haven't been able to pop my head up for a while. I can't update further on release date beyond what I already mentioned - that we're doing our best and working like _crazy_. One thing I will say is that we can't (or won't, I guess) do videos until the library is finished... and we also prefer demos to use the very last version of the library if possible (so it matches exactly what you get). The fact that videos are coming out should give you an indication where we're at. I promise we're not trying to make you all crazy!

Yes, we did real Violins 1 and Violins 2 (both with divisi). They come as a combined patch (for 1a+1b+2a+2b) as section patches (1a+1b and separately 2a+2b) and also as 4 split divisi patches for those hoping to increase their DAWs track count. 

If I missed a question let me know. More videos coming up!


----------



## Piano Pete

I'm sure this was already asked or will be covered, but is the articulation selector and ostinato feature functionally the same as it would be for hard programming the notes in? For orchestration and prep purposes, although the sound is great, it makes it a little bit more difficult when under the gun with tight deadlines if everything is stored under the hood.

Just with the videos released thusfar, I'm sold.


----------



## FireGS

@dxmachina I noticed something in the shorts video with the violins close mics only. Is it me, or do the violins seems to shift a bit in the stereo field? I ask because this is what actually happens when players are moving around with close mics - they move, but the mics don't. I feel like a lot of developers go out of their way to neuter this phenomenon, but for added realism, I feel like it SHOULD be there.

The real question - was this intentional/deliberate?  Answer wisely.


----------



## lettucehat

Looks really nice. I do wish the demos were a bit drier but I realize that the snapshots and mixes/IRs are a feature and will be explained further. I love my close mics and these sound great.

And WOW the tighten knob was a lot more than I expected. I thought it would be a sample start offset. But it's more like having a time machine patch for every short articulation, except it's all-in-one shorts. Something crucial to realistic phrasing that I constantly pull my hair out wishing for.


----------



## Toecutter

@dxmachina Thanks for the update, no need to rush the release. It's ready when it's ready XD 
Was this library also recorded at Studio 22 in Budapest?


----------



## lumcas

The shorts sound great and I really like all new features and options. Also. it's very refreshing to see just 3 mic positions plus mix. So far so good!


----------



## Noeticus

Great Shorts video.... but why no Legato for the Spiccatos?

I'm just kiddin'.


----------



## Evans

Good showing of the features. I do like that Close mic. 

With libraries like this that have a Rhythm Tool or Arpeggiator, how do people go about them if they're on a VEPro server separate from the DAW? Do you just use Coupled instances so the DAW project stores these attributes?


----------



## ned3000

Close mics seem to sound particularly good in those examples. Looks like the short articulation implementation is pretty well thought out. I'm probably going to get this when it comes out.

Wasn't crazy about the sound of the basses though; seemed a bit midrangey.

Also, learned a new word in that video: "CC-able".


----------



## chapbot

FireGS said:


> It's rarely done. I don't know why. CSSS doesn't, either, and that sucks.


How many solo bass pieces have you heard?


----------



## Igorianych

Goog good good!!!


----------



## muziksculp

Given what @dxmachina wrote above, I'm guessing the videos we are watching are not done using the final-release version of MSS. So, we might have to wait for them to finalize it for release, and also wait for NI to encode it, which takes another few days. 

So... I think we will see it officially released in Feb. but would love to be wrong.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

"One thing I will say is that we can't (or won't, I guess) do videos until the library is finished...The fact that videos are coming out should give you an indication where we're at."

Pretty clear.


----------



## FireGS

chapbot said:


> How many solo bass pieces have you heard?


Stanley Clarke would like to have a word with you...



No, but really, its not about using a solo instrument only as a solo - its a layer. If you're going to have first chairs, you should have a bass - its not only common courtesy to our bass player first chairs out there, but also makes sense from a template standpoint - consistency.


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> "One thing I will say is that we can't (or won't, I guess) do videos until the library is finished...The fact that videos are coming out should give you an indication where we're at."
> 
> Pretty clear.


OK, so did I read it the other way around, the library is completed, and ready for release, that's why they are releasing videos ?


----------



## maestro2be

muziksculp said:


> OK, so did I read it the other way around, the library is completed, and ready for release, that's why they are releasing videos ?


Yes, you completely misread what he was saying. The complete opposite of what he said is what you understood.


----------



## FireGS

maestro2be said:


> Yes, you completely misread what he was saying. The complete opposite of what he said is what you understood.


Rough.


----------



## Lazer42

muziksculp said:


> OK, so did I read it the other way around, the library is completed, and ready for release, that's why they are releasing videos ?


I interpreted it to mean that if a video is released on a certain aspect of the library, then that particular aspect is completed but elements which do not yet have videos are still in progress. The takeaway for me, then, was that the library is mostly completed.


----------



## maestro2be

FireGS said:


> Rough.


Lol sorry it wasn't meant to be. To be honest, I have no idea what native language everyone speaks here so I try to be fair. My wife is from another country than I and it's very easy to do actually. Sorry if it sounded rude . Muzik is a nice dude and really participates nicely on these boards. No harm meant!


----------



## muziksculp

maestro2be said:


> Yes, you completely misread what he was saying. The complete opposite of what he said is what you understood.


I'm glad I got it the opposite way.  

LOL... I initially thought he is saying that they are doing us a favor and rushing the videos out so we can get an idea of how the library sounds, although the library is not completely finalized yet. So, it is easy to read things the other way sometimes.


----------



## maestro2be

Lazer42 said:


> I interpreted it to mean that if a video is released on a certain aspect of the library, then that particular aspect is completed but elements which do not yet have videos are still in progress. The takeaway for me, then, was that the library is mostly completed.


Yours certainly would be the easier one to confuse if you ask me. However, he literally said he won't do ANY videos until the library is totally finished. He's telling you, we're done, or we wouldn't be giving you videos at all period. Because he wants you to see it as a finished product, not Beta.

He said demos would come completely last. I just say give us the library and let us make them lol.


----------



## turnerofwheels

chapbot said:


> How many solo bass pieces have you heard?


Could rephrase that as how many string quintets with bass players have you heard without bass players?

It's absolutely what CSSS is missing the most and I have to substitute with other libraries when using it


----------



## FireGS

maestro2be said:


> Lol sorry it wasn't meant to be. To be honest, I have no idea what native language everyone speaks here so I try to be fair. My wife is from another country than I and it's very easy to do actually. Sorry if it sounded rude . Muzik is a nice dude and really participates nicely on these boards. No harm meant!


I was just playin'


----------



## Raphioli

Just watched the latest video and really like how it sounds.
Especially like the sound which the close mics capture.
And the video was very comprehensive! That tighten knob and slam button will definitely be handy.

Will be looking forward to more


----------



## GingerMaestro

chapbot said:


> How many solo bass pieces have you heard?


One Double Bass Solo is one too many....


----------



## maestro2be

SHANE TURNER said:


> Could rephrase that as how many string quintets with bass players have you heard without bass players?
> 
> It's absolutely what CSSS is missing the most and I have to substitute with other libraries when using it


This is really a good question overall. What is the purpose of not recording a solo bass? I honestly don't know other than financial? Do people just think of string quartets as 2 violins, 1 viola and 1 cello and basses don't matter? I think they are critical for that up front sectional sound when you want that up close intimate solo instrument stacked with your ensemble as well. That 1st chair solo sound. I believe that LASS has FC Solo Basses if I remember correctly.


----------



## dcoscina

Hmm. Shorts walkthru not as jaw dropping as the ostinato and aleatoric videos but I will have another look.


----------



## muziksculp

Given the many features MSS has, I'm guessing we will be watching lots of MSS videos. Which is like watching a new, and very cool Netflix series. So far we have watched three episodes, looking forward to Episode 4


----------



## maestro2be

muziksculp said:


> Given the many features MSS has, I'm guessing we will be watching lots of MSS videos. Which is like watching a new, and very cool Netflix series. So far we have watched three episodes, looking forward to Episode 4


I am not sure if it's an indication of accuracy, but on their page there's now 3 videos, and 3 place holders. So perhaps 3 more videos? There's more unknown information to add to the speculation conversation .


----------



## muziksculp

maestro2be said:


> I am not sure if it's an indication of accuracy, but on their page there's now 3 videos, and 3 place holders. So perhaps 3 more videos? There's more unknown information to add to the speculation conversation .


I doubt three more videos will cover all the features of MSS, especially since they are releasing feature-focused videos, rather than mixed features long videos.


----------



## constaneum

i have a feeling legato will be shown last. haha


----------



## maestro2be

dcoscina said:


> Hmm. Shorts walkthru not as jaw dropping as the ostinato and aleatoric videos but I will have another look.


Curious what you didn't find so great? I thought it was very thorough and has lots of adjustments that don't go getting all phasey and fake sounding to me. That martele is a gorgeous attack for doing that pumping slow rhythm music. Very useful for classical music.


----------



## Casiquire

Nobody else noticed the gentle string demo in the background? 😏

It sounds to me like it has a more subtle vibrato. I hope it comes with a molto layer for those moments but it sounds like it's doing a decent amount of expression without overdoing the vibrato


----------



## dxmachina

> but is the articulation selector and ostinato feature functionally the same as it would be for hard programming the notes in?


For the _recorded_ ostinatos in the first video there would be some MIDI editing to get the parts score-ready if that's the gist of the question. The "Played" mode would be very quick work to turn into a score IMO. Now the _shorts_ Ostinato Tool on the other hand - well stay tuned on that. 



> I feel like a lot of developers go out of their way to neuter this phenomenon, but for added realism, I feel like it SHOULD be there.
> 
> The real question - was this intentional/deliberate?  Answer wisely.


We're big fans of keeping things 99.9% in their natural state - especially for the split mics. 



> I love my close mics and these sound great.
> 
> And WOW the tighten knob was a lot more than I expected.


Thanks. The close mics are killer. Honestly my favorite close mics on any library I've ever used. 



> Was this library also recorded at Studio 22 in Budapest?


Sorry, I'm not able to answer this contractually. It's a great sounding studio though - Genesis was recorded there.



> With libraries like this that have a Rhythm Tool or Arpeggiator, how do people go about them if they're on a VEPro server separate from the DAW? Do you just use Coupled instances so the DAW project stores these attributes?


I'm personally a big fan of working decoupled for my main template. So all the settings are generally made with MIDI CCs or using Key Switching. I'm a Logic guy primarily, so Articulation Sets have basically changed my life.


----------



## Evans

dxmachina said:


> I'm personally a big fan of working decoupled for my main template. So all the settings are generally made with MIDI CCs or using Key Switching. I'm a Logic guy primarily, so Articulation Sets have basically changed my life.


I prefer working Decoupled as well, just wondering how it works with that specific type of feature. Same goes for the phrase builder with Genesis, really. The information has to be saved in-project somehow, I would assume. Decoupled wouldn't work. 

With that said, I'll likely buy this either way and give it a go! Won't hurt if I need one or two of my few dozen libraries saved as Coupled!


----------



## FireGS

dxmachina said:


> We're big fans of keeping things 99.9% in their natural state - especially for the split mics.


----------



## Noeticus

During the MSS "Shorts" video, how many instruments are playing at the same time during the demo?

One Divisi section.... or ?


----------



## muziksculp

For Your Convenience, here is the MSS Shorts & Mics Video on YouTube.


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina Excellent video. Each new one only raises the hype. Those mics sound excellent (even if the Surround mic doesn’t sound quite as distant as I’d hoped, but that’s barely even a nitpick).

One question – how quiet does the library get using the modwheel? One great thing about strings is they can fade in from/fade out to basically complete silence, with almost no apparent jump or drop-off in volume. Some libraries replicate this (EWHS for instance can play extremely softly at very low CC1 levels), but some have a “minimal” volume level that has to be compensated for with CC11. It’s a minor detail, but I hope you can demonstrate MSS’s full dynamic range – from absolute softest to absolute loudest – in a future video.


----------



## borisb2

why is the shorts video gone from their website?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

borisb2 said:


> why is the shorts video gone from their website?


website trying to show off those legs, shorts were getting in the way.


----------



## Batrawi

The shorts sound very good and neat! I'm really glad they don't vibrate as they go longer/louder like CSS.


----------



## Laddy

Ooh, it sounds good. And I really like that the library can be used both in a simple "load and play"-way and a more advanced way with full control over all the little details.
As a (potential) new Audiobro customer, it seems the best move if I want this library, is to buy Genesis Choir or another library first, at least if I want to buy the expansion as well. 
Does anybody have a clue as to how long the sales prices in the store will last?


----------



## FKVStudio

Laddy said:


> Does anybody have a clue as to how long the sales prices in the store will last?


If I have understood correctly, the introductory prices will remain for 1 month after the launch of MSS.


----------



## FKVStudio

With each video that they release, MSS is a more spectacular and complete product. I am practically convinced that this is going to be an instant purchase. More videos please !!

What if. I am a proponent of giving developers the peace of mind and time they need to have the product fully polished upon launch. It's worth the wait.


----------



## Laddy

FKVStudio said:


> If I have understood correctly, the introductory prices will remain for 1 month after the launch of MSS.


Thanks, but I think that just pertains to the MSS prices. The other, older libraries are also for sale (Black Friday- sale), and I kinda worry that they suddenly will go back to full price before I make up my mind about MSS


----------



## FKVStudio

Laddy said:


> Thanks, but I think that just pertains to the MSS prices. The other, older libraries are also for sale (Black Friday- sale), and I kinda worry that they suddenly will go back to full price before I make up my mind about MSS


Oh, okay. I had misunderstood you. The duration of those prices I do not know. Hopefully they last a long time to make it easier for us to get the complete collection.

And saying this I retrieve a question for @dxmachina to answer when he has some time. What can we expect from Audiobro in the future? Beyond LASS 3.

Are you going to work on releasing a possible "Modern Scoring Woodwinds" and maybe a "Modern Scoring percussion"?

A greeting!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Thanks to the shorts video I now have an earworm, especially the second part of the "theme" Andrew played showing the mikes.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

FKVStudio said:


> Are you going to work on releasing a possible "Modern Scoring Woodwinds" and maybe a "Modern Scoring percussion"?


Yes, please!

And if the strings are great (from what I already heard they are), I will also buy MSB. It's still on my wishlist.


----------



## FKVStudio

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> And if the strings are great (from what I already heard they are), I will also buy MSB. It's still on my wishlist.


That is my plan for this year. I don't know whether to buy Genesis prior to MSS and, summer or autum, MSB :D


----------



## sinkd

Evans said:


> Hi! Can you provide additional detail regarding MSB and VEPro? I'm aware of some general issues with CPU/RAM (and have followed the similar Audiobro topics for Genesis, which I bought and love), but is there additional issue with MSB in VEPro?
> 
> I'm interested in picking it up, but it would definitely be on a secondary server. Thanks!


I just find that the MSB VEPro instance is RAM intensive and is the one part of my template most likely to get "hung up" requiring a reload or restart of VEPro.


----------



## novaburst

ProfoundSilence said:


> website trying to show off those legs, shorts were getting in the way.


Yes heard that too, shorts sounded very detailed some good texture going on there, was trying very hard to get a handle on the legato, they did sound very nice but yer they were well in the back ground and I think it got my attention more than the shorts vid


----------



## novaburst

sinkd said:


> I just find that the MSB VEPro instance is RAM intensive and is the one part of my template most likely to get "hung up" requiring a reload or restart of VEPro.


You can use batch resave, for faster I loading times 

Never had any issues with VEpro and MSB


----------



## bvaughn0402

Wow ... after hearing the Shorts ... and the subtle demo playing at the beginning ... I'm quite excited about this library. This just might become my top 2-3 string libraries of use.

I love the resonance, even without the IR. And then all of the extra features?! No brainer.

One question ... is this library automatically panned according to the Divisi setup?







If I had a "wish list" ...

1) Is it possible to add the Ostinato feature to the Brass and Choir libraries?

2) Any chance to allow the LASS samples inside MSS to build massive combos?


----------



## Nils Neumann

Noc said:


> @dxmachina Excellent video. Each new one only raises the hype. Those mics sound excellent (even if the Surround mic doesn’t sound quite as distant as I’d hoped, but that’s barely even a nitpick).
> 
> One question – how quiet does the library get using the modwheel? One great thing about strings is they can fade in from/fade out to basically complete silence, with almost no apparent jump or drop-off in volume. Some libraries replicate this (EWHS for instance can play extremely softly at very low CC1 levels), but some have a “minimal” volume level that has to be compensated for with CC11. It’s a minor detail, but I hope you can demonstrate MSS’s full dynamic range – from absolute softest to absolute loudest – in a future video.


well they are surround mics, not far far away mics


----------



## mushanga

The raw sound may be masked by the (IMO overly) wet reverb used in their videos, but does anyone else think these instruments have a very dark tone? They remind me of CSS.

It would be great to hear different sonic profiles, as I personally prefer a brighter, more present string sound.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nils Neumann said:


> well they are surround mics, not far far away mics


everytime you enter a thread I can't decide if I think of Nils Fjellstrom or this clip


----------



## Nils Neumann

ProfoundSilence said:


> everytime you enter a thread I can't decide if I think of Nils Fjellstrom or this clip



haha this is awesome!^^

Sadly no-one wants too connect me to this one Newman family that has a good run in LA


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Nils Neumann said:


> haha this is awesome!^^
> 
> Sadly no-one wants too connect me to this one Newman family that has a good run in LA


LA, schmell-A. As long as you're not tricked into visiting germany by someone like @OrchestralTools

it's known that teldex is home to one of the largest collections of Neumann mics... infact, they only read your emails because after a late night of cutting samples they thought your name was "Neumann, Mics"

you here looking at the divisi strings boatman?

edit: they've already got you in their sights, I thought you were living somewhere in scandinavia.


----------



## Jish

Nils Neumann said:


> haha this is awesome!^^
> 
> Sadly no-one wants too connect me to this one Newman family that has a good run in LA


I don't know why, but everytime I think of one of the Newman brothers I think back to that one sort of strange interview Randy and David did ( sans Thomas, of course...) where Michael Giachinno rather innocently describes his working relationship with several directors that also happen to be friends of his, and how he prefers it that way- Randy then jumped in from seemingly nowhere, "You're an awfully well adjusted s.o.b., aren't you?!". Later on Trevor Rabin made a quip/comment in relation to a question Re female composers frequency of work in relation to men, saying, 'they're not as good'. Alot of jokes seemed to miss their targets that night, but it was weirdly fun. 

Anyway, I would love for a 1/31 release of MSS but if it's not to be, hey, what can ya do. Like what I'm hearing so far, but as predictably stated previous I'm in the 'Legato's or Bust' camp. We transitioned over from the deflated Bernie movement and focus now on reversing tired/familiar sounding legato inequality in samples.


----------



## dcoscina

maestro2be said:


> Curious what you didn't find so great? I thought it was very thorough and has lots of adjustments that don't go getting all phasey and fake sounding to me. That martele is a gorgeous attack for doing that pumping slow rhythm music. Very useful for classical music.


I listened again on better headphones. I stick with my assessment. The shorts don't sound as authentic as the other two vids from AudioBro, at least not as jaw-dropping as the other elements. They aren't bad by any stretch but the Ostinato and Aleatoric features set the bar incredibly high. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty much sold on this already because of those other two! If the longs/legato are as stunning this is a win. But the sound of the shorts, even with all of the variations, isn't what I would equate with concert hall music. I have a LOT of experience with live strings, and MSS shorts sound more like film scoring strings. This is fine because that is most sample developers' key demographic and customer base. I'm just providing an observation based on the videos. It's possible that I can make them sound the way I want for my purposes.


----------



## Batrawi

bvaughn0402 said:


> is this library automatically panned according to the Divisi setup?


Yes, Sebastian mentioned that Divisi are recorded in situ. (not sure though how the stage feature would be useful here since it might distort the stereo image.. @dxmachina ?)



bvaughn0402 said:


> 2) Any chance to allow the LASS samples inside MSS to build massive combos?


When LASS 3 drops, I think you should be able to stack instruments from both libraries as you want since the goal with the new engine (as I see it) is to unify the workflow as much as possible amongst the different libraries including common mixing/IR profiles etc..


----------



## jamwerks

"Concert hall" string shorts vs "Film scoring" string shorts?


----------



## Evans

It would be amusing in the worst way if there were separate videos on each of the aspects listed near the bottom of the Modern Scoring Strings page, released several days apart:

Legato | Sustains
Shorts (done)
Pizzicato
Col Legno
Octave Runs
Scales
Ostinatos (done)
Aleatoric (done)
Bass Runs
Bartok Pizzicato
Let's get an 11-minute video on Bartok pizz, please.


----------



## I like music

Evans said:


> It would be amusing in the worst way if there were separate videos on each of the aspects listed near the bottom of the Modern Scoring Strings page, released several days apart:
> 
> Legato | Sustains
> Shorts (done)
> Pizzicato
> Col Legno
> Octave Runs
> Scales
> Ostinatos (done)
> Aleatoric (done)
> Bass Runs
> Bartok Pizzicato
> Let's get an 11-minute video on Bartok pizz, please.


That's silly. You know that Bartok pizz needs at least 15 minutes to explain.


----------



## Noeticus

So, please enlighten me, what is the difference between "concert hall strings" and "film scoring strings"?

I am not trying to be rude here. Just want to learn.


----------



## Raphioli

Evans said:


> It would be amusing in the worst way if there were separate videos on each of the aspects listed near the bottom of the Modern Scoring Strings page, released several days apart:
> 
> Legato | Sustains
> Shorts (done)
> Pizzicato
> Col Legno
> Octave Runs
> Scales
> Ostinatos (done)
> Aleatoric (done)
> Bass Runs
> Bartok Pizzicato
> Let's get an 11-minute video on Bartok pizz, please.


If they create Modern Scoring Percussions, I'm sure we'll being seeing a comprehensive 10 min video dedicated to cow bells


----------



## ChristianM

concert = classical, scrore = HZ


----------



## Nils Neumann

ChristianM said:


> concert = classical, scrore = HZ


nah


----------



## maestro2be

ChristianM said:


> concert = classical, scrore = HZ


Doesn't Hans perform "concerts" of his "scores" though? lol!  (ducks)


----------



## Casiquire

I don't exactly understand the statement that the shorts sound like film scoring and are unusable outside of that. But i do want to point out the title of the library as a hint of what style they're going for


----------



## muziksculp

@dcoscina , 

Can you tell us which Sample Library has the classical strings short articulations sound you like ? 

I'm guessing that MSS can offer multiple sonic characteristics/timbres of their strings, this feature has not been shown yet, but it will be shown in an upcoming video, I think Andrew mentioned this in one of the videos. So you might hear what you want, this library is quite flexible, and is not etched in stone as far it's sonic character is concerned.


----------



## dxmachina

> One Divisi section.... or ?


The full section I believe. Auto Divisi is on in this video, so any chords are split appropriately.



> One question – how quiet does the library get using the modwheel? One great thing about strings is they can fade in from/fade out to basically complete silence, with almost no apparent jump or drop-off in volume. Some libraries replicate this (EWHS for instance can play extremely softly at very low CC1 levels), but some have a “minimal” volume level that has to be compensated for with CC11.


This is something we actually put a lot of thought into. The short answer is that it can play either way. The slightly longer answer is:

1.By default the patches have a naturalistic volume range and you would additionally use CC11 if you wanted niente.

2. You can adjust the volume range to be really wide (or shallow) so that CC1 gets to almost completely inaudible.

3. You can further link volume with with Dynamics if you want complete niente on a single CC.

It's a 2-second patch setup if your prefer something custom and we'll cover it in a video.



> What can we expect from Audiobro in the future? Beyond LASS 3.


It's a difficult time to travel and record safely, but we do intend to cover the whole orchestra and hopefully get to an adult choir one of these days once the world gets a little more healthy.



> One question ... is this library automatically panned according to the Divisi setup?


Yes, it was recorded in situ.



> 1) Is it possible to add the Ostinato feature to the Brass and Choir libraries?


In terms of recorded ostinatios it's possible... but not likely in the near future.



> 2) Any chance to allow the LASS samples inside MSS to build massive combos?


LASS will have an update later this year so that it works in the new engine. You'd of course be able to layer. In terms of being in a _single_ patch I suppose it's possible though I suspect we'll leave that to loading two instruments.


----------



## Wunderhorn

dxmachina said:


> 3. You can further link volume with with Dynamics if you want complete niente on a single CC.
> 
> It's a 2-second patch setup if your prefer something custom and we'll cover it in a video.


There, now you did it! That's going to be the next 12 minute video that bumps the legato video back for another week (and the release date)!

To go back on topic, I always wished there was a string library in which the pp layer really displays audibly the gradually slower bowing. I guess this is problematic for cross-fading toward the next velocity layer, but a really good pp isn't just quieter, it feels slower, going further towards niente slows down the bowing even more, just riding CC1 would make it sound fake.
Now THAT to be reflected properly in a sample library would really be something exciting.
(Think of the finale of Mahler's 9nth)


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> But i do want to point out the title of the library as a hint of what style they're going for


curious to know what does the library title imply?
cause to me, Modern Scoring Strings literally means a modern tool for writing music (no specific style) with strings. Even though I reckon that "Modern Scoring" is almost exclusively used in the industry (at least here in this forum) to refer to modern film/cinematic music, which I don't really understand why that is necessarily true...


----------



## muziksculp

Talking about Legato, I wonder if AudioBro implemented a different, more advanced
methodology/technique/scripting for their MSS legatos compared to the way the LASS 2.5 Legatos were implemented ? or they used their standard LASS 2.5 Legato system for MSS ? 

I'm very confident that MSS legatos will sound awesome, but curious if they have changed the LASS legato system for MSS.


----------



## muziksculp

Also looking forward to hearing the Solo Violin, and Solo Cello in MSS.


----------



## Evans

Shoot, that's right, the solo instruments. Even if one video came out each day, it seems that there's enough content here to last us about 30 videos and 30 days.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Will it be possible to crossfade between two different patches? Such as passing from long to tremolo


----------



## dcoscina

muziksculp said:


> @dcoscina ,
> 
> Can you tell us which Sample Library has the classical strings short articulations sound you like ?
> 
> I'm guessing that MSS can offer multiple sonic characteristics/timbres of their strings, this feature has not been shown yet, but it will be shown in an upcoming video, I think Andrew mentioned this in one of the videos. So you might hear what you want, this library is quite flexible, and is not etched in stone as far it's sonic character is concerned.


Fair. I like the sound of the Berlin and BBCSO to be honest. Now keep in mind, I'm primarily doing concert music so I'm not after the same sonic sound as music for media. 

I'd like to underline that MSS is still a mandatory buy for me regardless. There is so much innovation and quality I'm hearing that it's a no brainer for me. The ostinato and aleatoric features alone are ones I cannot achieve as authentically in other libraries. And I'm sure there will be flexibility in the shorts. I don't mean to come off as negative.


----------



## I like music

dxmachina said:


> an adult choir


*Hyperventilates*


----------



## thesteelydane

The legato ostinato feature alone makes this an instant buy for me. It's been my main frustration with string libraries for years that no one sampled round robin legato before. Now if only someone would sample a good detache legato, and I'd be all set.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

@dxmachina;

1. It was mentioned in the shorts/mics video that the Full Mix mic is a combination of stage and room mics. Is this the same for MSB? Or more specifically, does the MSB Full Mix perspective exclude close mics?

2. If I recall correctly, MSB was NOT recorded in situ. Would it be possible to provide proper staging profiles for each brass member down the line? Or is the intention to let staging decisions fall to the composer?


----------



## muziksculp

dcoscina said:


> Fair. I like the sound of the Berlin and BBCSO to be honest. Now keep in mind, I'm primarily doing concert music so I'm not after the same sonic sound as music for media.
> 
> I'd like to underline that MSS is still a mandatory buy for me regardless. There is so much innovation and quality I'm hearing that it's a no brainer for me. The ostinato and aleatoric features alone are ones I cannot achieve as authentically in other libraries. And I'm sure there will be flexibility in the shorts. I don't mean to come off as negative.


I wonder if the classical strings shorts character is more due to the hall than to the playing, because there is no such instruction for string players to play cinematic shorts, vs classical shorts, they are played the same way, using the same bowing techniques.


----------



## muziksculp

thesteelydane said:


> Now if only someone would sample a good detache legato, and I'd be all set


How can detache be played legato ?  

Playing detache is instructing the string player to stop the bow after each note they play, and then play the next note. meaning, the notes have to sound detached from each other. (Not Legato).


----------



## Noeticus

muziksculp said:


> I wonder if the classical strings shorts character is more due to the hall than to the playing, because there is no such instruction for string players to play cinematic shorts, vs classical shorts, they are played the same way, using the same bowing techniques.


Yes, but only if I am right that it is reverb that sets it all apart.

Which is why I like dry libraries like VSL VI.


----------



## muziksculp

Noeticus said:


> Yes, but only if I am right that it is reverb that sets it all apart.
> 
> Which is why I like dry libraries like VSL VI.


MSS close mics sound very dry, and warm at the same time, really wonderful sound I heard in the shorts video. So, there you go, you have the dry sound in MSS.


----------



## Noeticus

muziksculp said:


> MSS close mics sound very dry, and warm at the same time, really wonderful sound I heard in the shorts video. So, there you go, you have the dry sound in MSS.


Yes, I agree, and I often use close mics to give a more dry sound on other, non VSL VI, libraries.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

dcoscina said:


> Fair. I like the sound of the Berlin and BBCSO to be honest. Now keep in mind, I'm primarily doing concert music so I'm not after the same sonic sound as music for media.
> 
> I'd like to underline that MSS is still a mandatory buy for me regardless. There is so much innovation and quality I'm hearing that it's a no brainer for me. The ostinato and aleatoric features alone are ones I cannot achieve as authentically in other libraries. And I'm sure there will be flexibility in the shorts. I don't mean to come off as negative.


Perhaps their mixer snapshots / EQ / etc. will have a more concert / classical type of preset. Hopefully the raw material is relatively flexible tonally.


----------



## thesteelydane

muziksculp said:


> How can detache be played legato ?
> 
> Playing detache is instructing the string player to stop the bow after each note they play, and then play the next note. meaning, the notes have to sound detached from each other. (Not Legato).


No, what you're describing is martele.

Detaché is the mother of all bowings to us string player, and basically just means a separate up or down bow for each note. It also means you don't ease off on the pressure on the bow as you change direction and note, resulting in clearly defined, yet connected notes. It is one of the most fundamental aspects of developing a good bow arm, and something we spend years perfecting on etudes. The end goal is (most of the time, but not in all cases) as smooth a bow change as possible.

Whenever you see longer legato passages, there's actually loads of detaché transitions in there, because a real bow isn't infinitely long, like it is in sample libraries. This is why some developers call it bow change legato, but what it actually is, is a detaché transition. It's an incredibly varied and agile technique, and no one has sampled it convincingly as far as I'm concerned, even though it is literally what string players do most of the time. It's bread and butter, and for some reason almost totally overlooked in sample libraries.


----------



## dcoscina

thesteelydane said:


> The legato ostinato feature alone makes this an instant buy for me. It's been my main frustration with string libraries for years that no one sampled round robin legato before. Now if only someone would sample a good detache legato, and I'd be all set.


Me too. I have used OT Symphonic Sphere for fingered tremolos for ages because I love that quality but MSS sounds like it is going to take it to another level!


----------



## lettucehat

thesteelydane said:


> The legato ostinato feature alone makes this an instant buy for me. It's been my main frustration with string libraries for years that no one sampled round robin legato before. Now if only someone would sample a good detache legato, and I'd be all set.


I hear you on round robin legato, but are Con Moto and Hollywood Strings not pretty impressive "bow change legato"? And on the chamber/solo side, CineStrings Solo is very nice with this.


----------



## thesteelydane

lettucehat said:


> I hear you on round robin legato, but are Con Moto and Hollywood Strings not pretty impressive "bow change legato"? And on the chamber/solo side, CineStrings Solo is very nice with this.


Listening to Con Moto now. That does sound pretty good! I wonder how agile it can be? What we really need is a library that can switch seamlessly from detaché to legato in the same phrase, but also has all the other articulations. I don't want to have a separate library that only excels at bow change legato, when it should be in every string library.


----------



## muziksculp

thesteelydane said:


> Listening to Con Moto now. That does sound pretty good! I wonder how agile it can be? What we really need is a library that can switch seamlessly from detaché to legato in the same phrase, but also has all the other articulations. I don't want to have a separate library that only excels at bow change legato, when it should be in every string library.


Have you checked Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings ?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> How can detache be played legato ?
> 
> Playing detache is instructing the string player to stop the bow after each note they play, and then play the next note. meaning, the notes have to sound detached from each other. (Not Legato).


I think he/she means bow change legato.

Legato isn‘t a bowstroke or articulation, it‘s a musical indication. The underlying concept is detache. Slurred or fingered legato is in one (detache) bow, bow change legato in separate (detache) bows per note, but with a connection.


----------



## Casiquire

Evans said:


> Shoot, that's right, the solo instruments. Even if one video came out each day, it seems that there's enough content here to last us about 30 videos.


That alone should tell us something!



Batrawi said:


> curious to know what does the library title imply?
> cause to me, Modern Scoring Strings literally means a modern tool for writing music (no specific style) with strings. Even though I reckon that "Modern Scoring" is almost exclusively used in the industry (at least here in this forum) to refer to modern film/cinematic music, which I don't really understand why that is necessarily true...


In this industry, "scoring" certainly indicates film scoring.

Again though I'm not hearing a particular playing style that only works for film work when I hear the shorts so I'm not totally following the logic. Especially that martele! It's a very nice classical detache-style sound to my ears.


----------



## muziksculp

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I think he/she means bow change legato.
> 
> Legato isn‘t a bowstroke or articulation, it‘s a musical indication. The underlying concept is detache. Slurred or fingered legato is in one (detache) bow, bow change legato in separate (detache) bows per note, but with a connection.


Yes, it's my mistake, I thought more of a Martele bowing, Detache is changing bow direction on every note, but that change can be done smoothly (Legato Style), to make the notes sound more connected, although there is a bow change disruption that happens physically.


----------



## thesteelydane

muziksculp said:


> Have you checked Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings ?


Yes. They sound horrible to me. Sorry


----------



## lettucehat

thesteelydane said:


> Listening to Con Moto now. That does sound pretty good! I wonder how agile it can be? What we really need is a library that can switch seamlessly from detaché to legato in the same phrase, but also has all the other articulations. I don't want to have a separate library that only excels at bow change legato, when it should be in every string library.


That is indeed an issue, although Hollywood Strings does that actually. It's just a matter of how much you actually like the sound of that. The general issue with Performance Samples is that their libraries are up front about being one thing at a time.


----------



## muziksculp

thesteelydane said:


> Yes. They sound horrible to me. Sorry


How did you evaluate them, which demos did you listen to that gave you that conclusion ? 

I know this is going off topic, so I won't post more about this library, but I think it sounds wonderful, provided you know how to use it. It's not an instant out of the box Wow experience. It takes some work to get this library to sound to your taste. 

Back to topic.


----------



## thesteelydane

muziksculp said:


> How did you evaluate them, which demos did you listen to that gave you that conclusion ?
> 
> I know this is going off topic, so I won't post more about this library, but I think it sounds wonderful, provided you know how to use it. It's not an instant out of the box Wow experience. It takes some work to get this library to sound to your taste.
> 
> Back to topic.


I'd pick out any of the official demos in a blind test instantly. I just went to the website and listened the Heldenleben excerpt in the official video, and had to turn it off after 10 seconds. It just screams fake. Sorry, I know lots of people like them, but I can't fathom why. I haven't heard anything convincing from anyone yet with that library, but I would love to be proven wrong. Their brass is amazing, and probably my next purchase!

But yeah, back to topic!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

thesteelydane said:


> No, what you're describing is martele.
> 
> Detaché is the mother of all bowings to us string player, and basically just means a separate up or down bow for each note. It also means you don't ease off on the pressure on the bow as you change direction and note, resulting in clearly defined, yet connected notes. It is one of the most fundamental aspects of developing a good bow arm, and something we spend years perfecting on etudes. The end goal is (most of the time, but not in all cases) as smooth a bow change as possible.
> 
> Whenever you see longer legato passages, there's actually loads of detaché transitions in there, because a real bow isn't infinitely long, like it is in sample libraries. This is why some developers call it bow change legato, but what it actually is, is a detaché transition. It's an incredibly varied and agile technique, and no one has sampled it convincingly as far as I'm concerned, even though it is literally what string players do most of the time. It's bread and butter, and for some reason almost totally overlooked in sample libraries.



Thanks for clarifying! Took me a long time to figure out the difference between detache and legato. In every book or other media there are different explanations. And also sample libraries use it the wrong way.

Although VSL and Hollywood Strings has detache patches, they are limited by their recorded duration. The power legato in HS is fine, in my opinion. I think it‘s nearly impossible to sample in general, because it‘s a constant mixture of detache, fingered and bow change legato. And the sample would have to know the duration and when you end the detache, in order to play the release instead of going into a sustain patch. And has to know your pressure, bow speed, vibrato and position (tasto/ponticello). So many variables... A sustain patch (as we have) isn‘t the real thing.

Hope I don‘t talk nonsense. I‘m not a string player, but I read much! 😆


----------



## lettucehat

New video up.


----------



## jamwerks

SCS and other SF libraries has a "Bow-change" legato, like the détaché described above.


----------



## jneebz

dxmachina said:


> In terms of recorded ostinatios it's possible... but not likely in the near future.


....and that’s because of the new LADD interface you guys are working on right?


----------



## Noeticus

thesteelydane said:


> Yes. They sound horrible to me. Sorry


Have you seen this done with SWAM? 

I know, it's not the same as "Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings".


----------



## lettucehat

Great video, it's like each new section read my mind and answered each new question I had. I was never too enamored with the automated tool in LASS, because of issues that are now very very thoroughly addressed in MSS, bravo.


----------



## Noeticus

Great new video!!!


----------



## muziksculp

Wow.. The Auto-Rhythm Tools in MSS are quite deep, and sophisticated. I wasn't expecting all of these features to be included in MSS.


----------



## sinkd

novaburst said:


> You can use batch resave, for faster I loading times
> 
> Never had any issues with VEpro and MSB


All patches are batch resaved and purged. I have also had to turn of the Kontakt time synch which did not play nice with DP tempo changes. 

How many MSB instruments do you have loaded in your VEPro instance? I have considered that I should just thin things out to start with just what I use most frequently.


----------



## Noeticus

At this point, and, I have not seen the legato video, I would say MSS is worth way more than even the regular price.

Awesome work, Audio Bro team!!!


----------



## sinkd

muziksculp said:


> How can detache be played legato ?
> 
> Playing detache is instructing the string player to stop the bow after each note they play, and then play the next note. meaning, the notes have to sound detached from each other. (Not Legato).


bow change legato? the bow does not stop it just changes direction.


----------



## sinkd

jamwerks said:


> SCS and other SF libraries has a "Bow-change" legato, like the détaché described above.


Did not see this before replying.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Jezus! It's going to take ages to get to know this library inside out!!!


----------



## chemie262

Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro


Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.



audiobro.com


----------



## yellow_lupine

@dxmachina 
The new video on A.R.T. is amazing. You have done a wonderful and very refined work with this library I'm looking forward to use it myself!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Dopplereffect said:


> Jezus! It's going to take ages to get to know this library inside out!!!


Yeah, and there are so many features and controls on the standard GUI alone.


----------



## dcoscina

yellow_lupine said:


> @dxmachina
> The new video on A.R.T. is amazing. You have done a wonderful and very refined work with this library I'm looking forward to use it myself!


I like the raw sound of the celli with close mics. Digs right in . This library is going to be LEGENDARY


----------



## Noeticus

The record, and then drag and drop is amazing!!!


----------



## Noeticus

Also, in regards to bow strokes...


----------



## lettucehat

Noeticus said:


> The record, and then drag and drop is amazing!!!


Potentially life-altering. The necessary bridge between these automation tools that many developers are enamored of, but which I've pretty much ignored because I need my piano roll to reflect what I'm hearing.


----------



## Evans

Noeticus said:


> The record, and then drag and drop is amazing!!!


Shoot, I hate that it looks good to me. I may have to consider moving Cubase to my machine that has more RAM, because drag-and-drop won't work in VEPro over Windows Remote Desktop. Phooey.


----------



## composingkeys

The Drag and Drop could also in theory let you layer other libraries too!


----------



## borisb2

"and then drag and drop" .. BOOM ..

What the f-word .. AWESOME! .. and they sound soo good


----------



## Vik

Noc said:


> One great thing about strings is they can fade in from/fade out to basically complete silence, with almost no apparent jump or drop-off in volume. Some libraries replicate this (EWHS for instance can play extremely softly at very low CC1 levels), but some have a “minimal” volume level that has to be compensated for with CC11. It’s a minor detail, but I hope you can demonstrate MSS’s full dynamic range – from absolute softest to absolute loudest – in a future video.


Yeah, I'd like to hear that as well, but/and I really hope there isn't any hidden CC7 or CC11 activity baked into the modulation control. When strings go really soft, as soft as they possibly can, they sound very different than when CC7/11 is being used to 'help' CC1 to achieve full silence. For me it's essential that there's an option to use CC1 to fade down to the lowest possible recorded level. and unfortunately some libraries – including some really good ones – can't do that. 
I actually miss the opposite function often: I'd like a have a option which, when CC1 is fading down the the minimum level _boost_ the levels artificially so it's easier to hear those beautiful and almost silent notes at ppp. 

Not that a software created niente function is never wanted, but it should be optional.


----------



## muziksculp

With regards to MSS short articulations, I really like the ability to switch between the various short articulations with ease via a fader, which we can CC-Learn to change the type of shorts a note plays. 

This add a lot to the realism, especially that one can perform the variation of shorts as needed in real time via an assigned fader, instead of inputting/performing using key-switches. That to me is a very smart, and valuable feature that MSS offers. 

Looking forward to watch more videos.


----------



## FireGS

Is it me or is there a very real, audible difference between the shorts played via ART tool(s) and after when the ART MIDI is dragged into the DAW and played back with regular shorts? It sounds like the ART tools are cutting off the release samples - but they're clearly there when playing via MIDI? 

@dxmachina any ideas there?


----------



## Noeticus

FireGS said:


> Is it me or is there a very real, audible difference between the shorts played via ART tool(s) and after when the ART MIDI is dragged into the DAW and played back with regular shorts? It sounds like the ART tools are cutting off the release samples - but they're clearly there when playing via MIDI?
> 
> @dxmachina any ideas there?


Reverb perhaps.


----------



## Raphioli

Just watched the new video, and wow.
So many convenient features built within the library!
I need to go rewatch the video lol


----------



## muziksculp

MSS Auto Rhythm Tools Video on YouTube


----------



## FireGS

Noeticus said:


> Reverb perhaps.


Mmmm... maybe. I just dont think I heard any release samples on the ART tool. Listen to those really fast notes here:



compared to here...



To me, the second example here actually sounds like real players going nuts with a bow on a string, but the first example sounds like a MIDI tool.

Could just be me, I grant that.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Casiquire

FireGS said:


> Mmmm... maybe. I just dont think I heard any release samples on the ART tool. Listen to those really fast notes here:
> 
> 
> 
> compared to here...
> 
> 
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



I haven't had the chance to get into detail and listen for what you're describing, but i wonder if there's some tightness knob being used either during the demonstration or under the hood while using the ART


----------



## Vik

FireGS said:


> To me, the second example here actually sounds like real players going nuts with a bow on a string, but the first example sounds like a MIDI tool.


Re MIDI tool: The humanize function will probably take care of (most of) that.


----------



## FireGS

Casiquire said:


> I haven't had the chance to get into detail and listen for what you're describing, but i wonder if there's some tightness knob being used either during the demonstration or under the hood while using the ART


Also possible. I'm wondering if theres also some sort of scripting going on when just playing back MIDI notes vs ART - or if its the same scripts being fed by ART...



Vik said:


> Re MIDI tool: The humanize function will probably take care of (most of) that.


Maybe. I dislike humanization on sections, though, because unless its written, most professional sections are actually in time with eachother and a recording would be redone for timing issues. I'm cool with it on soloists doing divisi lines - but entire sections (or divisi sections) being out of time is traditionally a bad thing IRL - as should it be in samples. 

Tightness knob is totally fine though.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Mmmm... maybe. I just dont think I heard any release samples on the ART tool. Listen to those really fast notes here:
> 
> 
> 
> compared to here...
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the second example here actually sounds like real players going nuts with a bow on a string, but the first example sounds like a MIDI tool.
> 
> Could just be me, I grant that.
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



I clearly hear release samples when he demonstrates the ART tool in the beginning of the video around 1:54 . So, maybe there was a setting that changed the release tails behaivior in the part of the demo you are hearing them kind of chopped off.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Vik said:


> Yeah, I'd like to hear that as well, but/and I really hope there isn't any hidden CC7 or CC11 activity baked into the modulation control. When strings go really soft, as soft as they possibly can, they sound very different than when CC7/11 is being used to 'help' CC1 to achieve full silence. For me it's essential that there's an option to use CC1 to fade down to the lowest possible recorded level. and unfortunately some libraries – including some really good ones – can't do that.
> I actually miss the opposite function often: I'd like a have a option which, when CC1 is fading down the the minimum level _boost_ the levels artificially so it's easier to hear those beautiful and almost silent notes at ppp.
> 
> Not that a software created niente function is never wanted, but it should be optional.


I hate to spoil your excitement but a real _ppp_ layer also sounds that way because of a slowed down bowing - which would have to be recorded. I have never seen a string library that can do that and I am afraid that (as many, many wonderful features MSS has) this one might not be able to do _true ppp_ either.


----------



## Vik

FireGS said:


> Tightness knob is totally fine though.


Sure, but one cannot 'un-tighten' notes that aren't entered in a human way, like those notes which can be triggered by just holding down some notes on a keyboard. And even among the tightest of all string players, there are some milliseconds of difference which makes it sound more real, so a way to loosen up some experiments with auto-generated notes can be helpful. And since the A in A.R.T. is for 'automatic', we have to live with that the fact that this won't be as perfect (unperfect, actually, in a good way), as that brilliant Asian player who demonstrates bow strokes in a video above.

Well, that's a bad example actually, because I was wondering for a second if he was a robot!  Not all players can play as 'quantised' as him!


----------



## lucor

The one thing that worries me, with all the advanced functions that are in these Kontakt patches, is how resource friendly MSS will be?
I hope they will not end up like the CAPSULE instruments from OT, which also have extremely advanced functionality, but they are also an absolute pain to work with because they bog down the DAW, bloat project file sizes like crazy, multiply project saving times etc., which is why I tend to avoid using them as much as possible.
My hope is that MSS won't be as bad, or at least will contain "Lite" patches that consist of _single _articulations with only the most vital functions activated.


----------



## lettucehat

FireGS said:


> Also possible. I'm wondering if theres also some sort of scripting going on when just playing back MIDI notes vs ART - or if its the same scripts being fed by ART...
> 
> 
> Maybe. I dislike humanization on sections, though, because unless its written, most professional sections are actually in time with eachother and a recording would be redone for timing issues. I'm cool with it on soloists doing divisi lines - but entire sections (or divisi sections) being out of time is traditionally a bad thing IRL - as should it be in samples.
> 
> Tightness knob is totally fine though.


I think what the video shows is that the first example is using staccatissimo and the second is using spiccato for the cello. In general I think these videos involving the shorts are using an articulation one notch too long for many of the contexts, but sometimes they adjust mid-demonstration and it sounds a lot better. Case in point... this!


----------



## FireGS

Vik said:


> Sure, but one cannot 'un-tighten' notes that aren't entered in a human way, like those notes which can be triggered by just holding down some notes on a keyboard. And even among the tightest of all string players, there are some milliseconds of difference which makes it sound more real, so a way to loosen up some experiments with auto-generated notes can be helpful. And since the A in A.R.T. is for 'automatic', we have to live with that the fact that this won't be as perfect (unperfected, actually, in a good way), as that brilliant Asian player who demonstrate strokes bow strokes in a video above.
> 
> Well, that's a bad example actually, because I was wondering for a second if he was a robot!  Not all players can play as 'quantised' as him!


I think I agree with you. I guess my point is that I'm happy to have some imperfections in the samples themselves, and adding "humanization" just moves the already, perhaps, imperfect notes in time, creating a double lag. I'm hoping the milliseconds difference was recorded in the samples and not not something we have to play with to get sounding real (by introducing many milliseconds to whole divisi groups).


----------



## FireGS

Off topic, but somewhat on topic - has there been any mention of Marcato yet? Martele is definitely not marcato - and nor is marcato martele - so I'm happy martele is there - but do we know about Marcato?


----------



## Vik

FireGS said:


> I guess my point is that I'm happy to have some imperfections in the samples themselves, and adding "humanization" just moves the already, perhaps, imperfect notes in time, creating a double lag


The problem with sampled notes that don't start at the same time is that we also add imperfections when we record MIDI into our DAWs and score apps, and if I play a little early, I don't want my libraries to add to that. Even some of the otherwise great libraries have large timing differences between the notes, which can be rather disturbing.

MSS seems to have several versions of the short notes (normal, tight and tightest) which could be a way to address some of this.


----------



## FireGS

Vik said:


> The problem with sampled notes that don't start at the same time is that we also add imperfections when we record MIDI into our DAWs and score apps, and if I play a little early, I don't want my libraries to add to that. Even some of the otherwise great libraries have large timing differences between the notes, which can be rather disturbing.
> 
> MSS seems to have several versions of the short notes (normal, tight and tightest) which could be a way to address some of this.


I mean, yes, if you only ever play your parts in live and never go back to fix timing issues - otherwise those libraries some outstanding realism with those timing differences.


----------



## lettucehat

FireGS said:


> Off topic, but somewhat on topic - has there been any mention of Marcato yet? Martele is definitely not marcato - and nor is marcato martele - so I'm happy martele is there - but do we know about Marcato?


My hope is that the accented longs might be combined with martele releases. But marcato itself doesn't look to be a recorded articulation.


----------



## FireGS

Oh that's interesting...

Accented legato.. Crescendo legato...


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Oh that's interesting...
> 
> Accented legato.. Crescendo legato...


Oh.. I don't see Bumpy Legato in that list


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. I don't see Bumpy Legato in that list


Yes you do. It's the ultimate bump - crescendo!!


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Yes you do. It's the ultimate bump - crescendo!!


No, I'm afraid that crescendo is too smooth to be bumpy. 

They need to add the real bumpy legato articulation. This could delay the release date.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> This could delay the release date.


Better buy the AudioBro Creators Cloud subscription while you can now!


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Better buy the AudioBro Creators Cloud subscription while you can now!


Hehe... Only if it offers the Bumpy Legatos.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Hehe... Only if it offers the Bumpy Legatos.


It will by Fall 2021. If not, NAMM 2022.


----------



## novaburst

sinkd said:


> All patches are batch resaved and purged. I have also had to turn of the Kontakt time synch which did not play nice with DP tempo changes.
> 
> How many MSB instruments do you have loaded in your VEPro instance? I have considered that I should just thin things out to start with just what I use most frequently.








Audiobro Modern Scoring Brass (MSB)


Does anyone know how long the intro price is going on for? Also, does anyone know if Audio Bro offers an Edu Discount on their products? Thinking of getting on Modern Scoring Brass myself. Nearly bought it yesterday for $499 so.. glad I didn't




vi-control.net





i answered hear


----------



## dcoscina

FireGS said:


> Mmmm... maybe. I just dont think I heard any release samples on the ART tool. Listen to those really fast notes here:
> 
> 
> 
> compared to here...
> 
> 
> 
> To me, the second example here actually sounds like real players going nuts with a bow on a string, but the first example sounds like a MIDI tool.
> 
> Could just be me, I grant that.
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Im with you. I hear the releases better on the midi dropped versions.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Wow... just watched the new video with the rhythmic tools. This library is turning out to be quite incredible


----------



## dxmachina

> Is it me or is there a very real, audible difference between the shorts played via ART tool(s) and after when the ART MIDI is dragged into the DAW and played back with regular shorts? It sounds like the ART tools are cutting off the release samples - but they're clearly there when playing via MIDI?


It's the lower volume level and very likely the compression that Vimeo/YT puts on very quiet sounds. We upload in (basically) lossless, but it's a black box from there. At full volume the sound coming out of A.R.T. is identical here. Didn't do a null test, but it's close enough I can't tell the difference blind.

Besides layering other stuff, and having a usable score/piano roll part, you can also use the "Slam" feature once the MIDI is exported. On some kind of material that's a really nice addition.



> I hate to spoil your excitement but a real _ppp_ layer also sounds that way because of a slowed down bowing - which would have to be recorded.



I really don't want to promise you something we don't have, but they definitely used slower bows for the softest dynamic. I'm not sure how else they would do it to be honest. We generally ask for the softest possible dynamic that they can play while maintaining a good and consistent tone.

On top of that, we recorded the cresc. sustains at _every_ dynamic... so doing that on the ppp samples is about as close to as coming from real niente as you can get. That said, string playing is so marvelously nuanced that context really matters, and we get that. So again, don't want to overpromise on something, but we made a concerted effort to get the full dynamic range. Will be curious to see what you think.


----------



## FireGS

dxmachina said:


> It's the lower volume level and very likely the compression that Vimeo/YT puts on very quiet sounds. We upload in (basically) lossless, but it's a black box from there. At full volume the sound coming out of A.R.T. is identical here. Didn't do a null test, but it's close enough I can't tell the difference blind.
> 
> Besides layering other stuff, and having a usable score/piano roll part, you can also use the "Slam" feature once the MIDI is exported. On some kind of material that's a really nice addition.


Just want to be sure - I'm not talking about the ending cello part that's playing while you're talking - which you then bounce to MIDI and it plays without V.O. - I mean specifically the 32nd notes in the Viola section at video mark 6:27 - then comparing that with the 32nd notes played by the cello at video mark 9:50. <3


----------



## dxmachina

> I mean specifically the 32nd notes in the Viola section at video mark 6:27 - then comparing that with the 32nd notes played by the cello at video mark 9:50.


Ok, yeah... I misunderstood. I think my tighten knob got pushed up a bit higher on the Violas in the first example. I'll take a look tomorrow to make sure.


----------



## Vik

FireGS said:


> Oh that's interesting...
> 
> Accented legato.. Crescendo legato...


Yup. I soooo like that they create a library with many options instead of creating many libraries with fewer options. This looks more and more promising.


----------



## muziksculp

Vik said:


> Yup. I soooo like that they create a library with many options instead of creating many libraries with fewer options. This looks more and more promising.


Unfortunately they did not include a Bumpy-Legato articulation option. I might have to check other libraries for that.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Unfortunately they did not include a Bumpy-Legato articulation option. I might have to check other libraries for that.


There's a few 60% off sales still going on (apparently)....

OK, I'll stop.


----------



## rottoy

Damn, I'm in LOVE with the Close mics here.


----------



## Vik

muziksculp said:


> Unfortunately they did not include a Bumpy-Legato articulation option. I might have to check other libraries for that.


You'll easily find bumpy legatos on eBay within not too long. But they may become very pricey of course – vintage pruducts are often that.


----------



## maestro2be

muziksculp said:


> Unfortunately they did not include a Bumpy-Legato articulation option. I might have to check other libraries for that.


I am very disappointed in this. They obviously do not listen to what users want! 🤪. Without it there’s not many things for us to all come here and fill 500 pages up with arguments and bashing the library until they make a fix for us.

I mean everyone loves a good legato with a huge sucking sound legato gap in it. Maybe they will make us a button for that 😁.


----------



## muziksculp

Vik said:


> You'll easily find bumpy legatos on eBay within not too long. But they may become very pricey of course – vintage pruducts are often that.


Don't make fun of Bumpy-Legatos, they are becoming more valuable than you think, they are a collector's item now, totally Vintage, especially the very bumpy ones.


----------



## muziksculp

maestro2be said:


> I mean everyone loves a good legato with a huge sucking sound legato gap in it. Maybe they will make us a button for that


I think there will be an upcoming video showing the Auto-Bump Button for the Legatos. Just press the button when you need some bumps in your legatos.


----------



## borisb2

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. I don't see Bumpy Legato in that list


looks like you worked too long with BSS


----------



## Drundfunk

dxmachina said:


> It's a difficult time to travel and record safely, but we do intend to cover the whole orchestra and *hopefully get to an adult choir* one of these days once the world gets a little more healthy.


YES!!!!


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> Unfortunately they did not include a Bumpy-Legato articulation option. I might have to check other libraries for that.


I can't believe this, I may consider looking else where for a string library, I was so hoping they would do them, 

I wonder if they will sell them as an expansion pack later,


----------



## Eptesicus

All you guys joking about bumpy legato.....don't joke too early. We havent actually heard the legatos yet


----------



## Batrawi

There could be 2 reasons for why the legatos haven't been shown till this stage:
1-they're either incredibly beautiful, so they want to end the walkthrough series with it, as in the "Big Finale" or...
2-they're just ok or not so good, so they're releasing all other cool features first to raise our excitement bar for those features on one hand as well as to absorb our shock about the legatos on the other hand, leaving us with a final impression/subconscience of _"hey... I'm not sad about how the legatos turned out. Not everything is about legatos and there are so many cool features already so I'll buy the library anyways.."_

I really hope we're not in front of scenario #2 cause my obsession with audiobro's stuff will likely force me to buy the library either ways..


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Batrawi said:


> There could be 2 reasons for why the legatos haven't been shown till this stage:
> 1-they're either incredibly beautiful, so they want to end the walkthrough series with it, as in the "Big Finale" or...
> 2-they're just ok or not so good, so they're releasing all other cool features first to raise our excitement bar for those features on one hand as well as to absorb our shock about the legatos on the other hand, leaving us with a final impression/subconscience of _"hey... I'm not sad about how the legatos turned out. Not everything is about legatos and there are so many cool features already so I'll buy the library anyways.."_
> 
> I really hope we're not in front of scenario #2 cause my obsession with audiobro's stuff will likely force me to buy the library either ways..


Scenario #1 all the way.


----------



## Vik

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Scenario #1 all the way.


Sure, most likely. Since Audiobro was a pioneer and released convincing legatos 10-12 years ago, and have spent a lot of time working on MSS, why would they release it with useless legatos? Doesn't really make sense. 
But are the bass pizzicatos long enough? That's an important topic for me, since I already have too many too short bass pizzes.


----------



## Batrawi

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Scenario #1 all the way


If MSS' legatos are as good as LASS' improved legatos(with the Pixelpoet-trick as I call it ) then I'd be more than happy


----------



## Noc

I’d bet on Scenario #3 – the legatos will be great, but that part of the patches is still getting its finishing touches, and @dxmachina already said they basically make and put out videos covering each respective feature the moment it’s complete.

Also, a quick Q for @dxmachina: Will it be possible to morph between sul tasto/nat./sul pont. as a player can (great for smooth transitions), or are they more like an on/off switch? Definitely a reach, but I thought I’d ask.

Keep up the great work, can’t wait to give you all my money.


----------



## Eptesicus

Vik said:


> Sure, most likely. Since Audiobro was a pioneer and released convincing legatos 10-12 years ago, and have spent a lot of time working on MSS, why would they release it with useless legatos? Doesn't really make sense.
> But are the bass pizzicatos long enough? That's an important topic for me, since I already have too many too short bass pizzes.



Well it happened with Synchron Strings and Berlin Symphonic Strings (to a lesser extent) and they are both well renowned developers.

Both have a sterile "dead" sound , especially in the high strings. I dont know what goes wrong, but the end results just ends up not capturing the realism and expression that is so sorely needed.

Fingers crossed Audiobro have nailed it though.


----------



## Vik

True - there are some other companies too, which launched new string libraries with less believable legatos than they had before. And there's no need to speculate, really – we'll all soon know. But I still trust that this will be good, both because Audiobro is a company with few products, and because the other stuff in MSS seems to have been worked properly on. They can't afford send potential users on a bumpy ride.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Batrawi said:


> If MSS' legatos are as good as LASS' improved legatos(with the Pixelpoet-trick as I call it ) then I'd be more than happy


I'm curious.


----------



## Hanu_H

I think you guys are totally off the tracks here. First of all, the library is done. What I can understand it's already at NI. Like @dxmachina told us, there would be no videos if the library wouldn't be ready. 2nd, there is no way they are thinking about this the way you are. They are just two guys excited about the unique features in their upcoming library. Legatos will be killer and I am sure that you will see and hear it soon in a video. Audiobro has always been really upfront with all the videos, demos, etc. No reason why they would need to soften the blow with anything. Btw...loving the short articulations and the close mics sound amazing as well!


----------



## Batrawi

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm curious.


about the trick you mean? in case you missed that, go back to p16 where I posted and audio file and p17 for the "how to" steps


----------



## Casiquire

Eptesicus said:


> All you guys joking about bumpy legato.....don't joke too early. We havent actually heard the legatos yet


I don't think there's a single flaw in LASS's legatos 😁


----------



## Noeticus

I am sure the AudioBro team have been on this forum, and have read over, and over again, about how many people on this forum LOVE the CSS legatos.... so therefore MSS will also have GREAT legatos.


----------



## FireGS

Noeticus said:


> I am sure the AudioBro team have been on this forum, and have read over, and over again, about how many people on this forum LOVE the CSS legatos.... so therefore MSS will also have GREAT legatos.


@dxmachina is part of the team, so yes. :D


----------



## robh

Casiquire said:


> I don't think there's a single flaw in LASS's legatos 😁


It’s possible to make bumpy legatos in LASS 😏


----------



## novaburst

We all are talking legato legato legato but what is a really good legato do we really know, is it a slow build I mean what would you say a very good legato sounds like and can a string library really pull it off.


----------



## FireGS

novaburst said:


> We all are talking legato legato legato but what is a really good legato do we really know, is it a slow build I mean what would you say a very good legato sounds like and can a string library really pull it off.




Here's a decent example off the top of my head.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Eptesicus said:


> Well it happened with Synchron Strings and Berlin Symphonic Strings (to a lesser extent) and they are both well renowned developers.
> 
> Both have a sterile "dead" sound , especially in the high strings. I dont know what goes wrong, but the end results just ends up not capturing the realism and expression that is so sorely needed.
> 
> Fingers crossed Audiobro have nailed it though.


I know what you mean with "dead". It's the vibrato, because with VSL it depends on which library you use. Orchestral and Chamber Strings have indeed less vibrato, whereas Appassionata or Dimension Strings can really go up to espressivo level. I think vibrato is more obvious in either smaller or very big sections. Also the recording is important, as well as how it is performed or how one instructed the players.


----------



## Raphioli

novaburst said:


> We all are talking legato legato legato but what is a really good legato do we really know, is it a slow build I mean what would you say a very good legato sounds like and can a string library really pull it off.


The first paragraph of NoamL's post (which I personally agree with) regarding realistic legatos came in to mind right away, when I read your post.





How do you guys compare OT new string legato with CSS's legato in terms of realism?


Berlin Symphonic Strings (orchestraltools.com) Cinematic Studio Strings – Cinematic Studio Series




vi-control.net


----------



## Russell Anderson

I think spitfire’s approach to legato, with the playable patches seems to be a good one. Executed well? Variably. Some inconsistencies in transition speeds/availability per interval/note and ofc the occasional tuning that must be worked around (thankfully there are 1,000,000 ways to play a note in SCS). I would like to see some more adjustability on legato speed on SCS for something in between the slower legato and the portamento, but the transition speeds and types are good and, organized/playable by velocity, very usable. Haven’t used CSS yet, and only used the Vista demo, so can’t say much there.

Overall with this library, though, I am really excited. I may not even buy CSS depending (can only afford one, and... can only afford it in maybe 10 months).

Great news - I’m now accepting donations! :D


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

novaburst said:


> We all are talking legato legato legato but what is a really good legato do we really know, is it a slow build I mean what would you say a very good legato sounds like and can a string library really pull it off.


Hm... I love both LASS and VSL (Dimension Strings). I thinks they nailed it – the legato is playable at nearly all speeds (with VSL you can even play trills) and has absolutely no delay. I don't have any problems to get the emotion that I want. I don't need an exaggerated, portamento-like transition built-in.

You don't actually need legato speeds. The longer "speeds" we hear in actual recordings are either a finger position change on one string (sul), a portamento or a glissando.


----------



## Batrawi

novaburst said:


> We all are talking legato legato legato but what is a really good legato do we really know, is it a slow build I mean what would you say a very good legato sounds like and can a string library really pull it off.


a very good legato is one that must 1)have audible/true transition(controllable) length 2)volume-consistent with the adjacent sustains(not bumpy) and 3)consistent across the whole instrument range. Which IMO is not too much to ask yet surprisingly very few
developers that gives this the necessary attention (like Cinematic Studio & Musical Sampling and definitely EW's Hollywood Stings')


----------



## Russell Anderson

1) Multiple velocities sampled for each transition
2) With and without vibrato
3) Adjustable transition speed speed
3.5) Multiple forms of legato separated by velocity input (or whatever you want) (with middleground available between porta and non-)

That I think should give one most of the necessary styles to put on a realistic performance, MSS even gives “crescendo legato” so I’m *very* interested to see how it works, as dynamic changes during note transitions are part of what I think separates real strings from samples... I’ll edit this again later or post when my thoughts are a little more organized on exactly what parameters of the performance are hardest to capture and how one might do it anyway


----------



## novaburst

Russell Anderson said:


> think spitfire’s approach to legato, with the playable patches seems to be a good one. Executed well? Variably. Some inconsistencies in transition speeds/availability per interval/note and ofc the occasional tuning that must be worked around (thankfully there are 1,000,000 ways to play a note in SCS). I would like to see some more adjustability on legato speed on SCS for something in between the slower legato and the portamento, but the transition speeds and types are good and, organized/playable by velocity, very usable. Haven’t used CSS yet, and only used the Vista demo, so can’t say much there.


I think this would be the ideal legato a legato you can adjust accordingly to what type of music you are writing,


----------



## zimm83

FireGS said:


> Yep, posted yesterday a few pages back.


Oups...will delete thanks.


----------



## lettucehat

I know all this speculation will seem silly in a few days when we finally see/hear the legato, but yeah I'm not worried about sterility here. I'm not intimately familiar with LASS but I don't think it lacks for expressivity, like, at all. The main complaints, which I know they took to heart over 10+ years, were about sound. I remember _wishing_ (not being upset) that it could handle ostinato patterns better, but what library did that well until recently anyway? It's still a problem that is yet to be solved if you set aside pre-recorded phrases. And then I think OT's adaptive legato was the next solid step forward, though then and now I don't think BS was a huge leap forward in realistic (string) legato, just another top of the line option (and an exhaustively comprehensive one in addition to adaptive legato). CSS' achievement seems to mostly just be a result of meticulous recording, programming, and quality control more than any new breakthrough. So I feel pretty confident in Audiobro if they felt it was time to take a step forward in strings - I know they have the ear for great legato.


----------



## novaburst

Russell Anderson said:


> 1) Multiple velocities sampled for each transition
> 2) With and without vibrato
> 3) Adjustable transition speed speed
> 3.5) Multiple forms of legato separated by velocity input (or whatever you want) (with middleground available between porta and non-)


this the ideal package


----------



## Vik

Russell Anderson said:


> 1) Multiple velocities sampled for each transition
> 2) With and without vibrato
> 3) Adjustable transition speed speed
> 3.5) Multiple forms of legato separated by velocity input (or whatever you want) (with middleground available between porta and non-)


Re. #3 above: IMO we need, and I'm not joking, both 'bumpy' and linear recordings for legato flexibility. Some of the legatos that are described as bumpy work really well for slow lyrical music. The only way to achieve that kind of playing is to ask the players to have a slow fade in/crescendo at the beginning of each note. These samples, when used for other stuff, won't sound good, but they are needed for the kind of expressivity seen in some existing libraries. I don't have Vista, but I've heard some of these gradual increases in demos. IIRR Mural had it too, but it seems that they were more or less edited away in SSS.

And since these notes start with a low dynamic level, the legato transition itself also needs to adjust to that. And since its' impossible for the code to guess which of these two main types to use, they need to be controllable, the same way some libraries trigger portamento on either high or low velocities.
Maybe this (that the notes between the legato transitions can be either linear or crescendo) is exactly what MSS will deliver when selecting 'crescendo', and the the legato transition automatically adjust to whether crescendo is selected or not? That would be awesome.


----------



## Noeticus

5 Days to go!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Casiquire

Noeticus said:


> 5 Days to go!!!!!!!!!!!!


I admire that optimism!


----------



## Noeticus

I'm a gonna buy the hell out of that them thar MSS library!


----------



## FireGS

Noeticus said:


> I'm a gonna buy the hell out of that them thar MSS library!


I reckon'.


----------



## constaneum

And another new video today perhaps? Hehe


----------



## constaneum

i can't recall whether this was mentioned before but i do hope the instruments aren't released in one master patch only for each instrument. Prefer the options of having a master patch and separate articulations like what's offered under LASS. My experience with Genesis was taking longer time to load up the patch even though i've batch resaved it. hmm...


----------



## Mucusman

constaneum said:


> Prefer the options of having a master patch and separate articulations



Agreed. Having a master patch is fine, but individual articulation patches are also really welcome. I have MSB and loading times are longer than I would like loading the patches.


----------



## FireGS

Theres ensemble, section, and divisi patches, I believe I read.


----------



## Mucusman

Right, but do we need to load, for a Violins 1 section, the legato, shorts, recorded ostinatos, etc. articulations all into RAM? Or can these be loaded independently? 

My experience is that in such cases with MSB that yes, all the articulations are loaded in, say, a trombones patch. Maybe I just missed a way to load only a single articulation in MSB (example: trombones shorts).


----------



## Vik

Mucusman said:


> Right, but do we need to load, for a Violins 1 section, the legato, shorts, recorded ostinatos, etc. articulations all into RAM? Or can these be loaded independently?
> 
> My experience is that in such cases with MSB that yes, all the articulations are loaded in, say, a trombones patch. Maybe I just missed a way to load only a single articulation in MSB (example: trombones shorts).


In other libraries, one can unload the artics that aren’t needed, and save this as a new preset. My guess is that this will be possible in MSS too.


----------



## FireGS

Mucusman said:


> Right, but do we need to load, for a Violins 1 section, the legato, shorts, recorded ostinatos, etc. articulations all into RAM? Or can these be loaded independently?
> 
> My experience is that in such cases with MSB that yes, all the articulations are loaded in, say, a trombones patch. Maybe I just missed a way to load only a single articulation in MSB (example: trombones shorts).


What I did with CSB, and maybe is how it is by default in MSS, is that I unloaded everything, saved it as a new patch and it loads wayyy quicker.


----------



## FireGS

Vik said:


> In other libraries, one can unload the artics that aren’t needed, and save this as a new preset. My guess is that this will be possible in MSS too.


Ha, too slow on my part -_-


----------



## Mucusman

Thanks @Vik and @FireGS -- by actually digging in the manual and by trial and error, I learned how to remove articulations and save those as new patches. Learned a new skill today. What do you know -- musicians helping musicians!

It's interesting seeing a number of the features in the MSS videos and realizing, "oh, this same feature exists in MSB!"


----------



## Piano Pete

With the talk about MSB, I'm surprised I have not heard/seen more of it. Is there are reason for this?


----------



## Noc

Piano Pete said:


> With the talk about MSB, I'm surprised I have not heard/seen more of it. Is there are reason for this?


My understanding from reading various MSB discussions is that a combination of factors including lackluster official demos and walkthroughs (too few, too superficial, and not very impressive recording quality), the library not sounding as great out-of-the-box without a certain amount of work (especially compared to competitors like CB or CSB which are much more load-and-play-friendly), and perhaps lack of marketing, all combined so that it kinda landed with a thud upon release. I do personally feel the demos and walkthrough videos don’t really do enough to sell it on their own, and there’s a disappointing lack of third-party videos about it on YT, so it’s hard for people to get a good idea of what it can do without buying it first.

But we’ve seen some users post some amazing demos, so clearly the library has the capability; it’s just that it takes a certain amount of know-how and work to get it sounding its best. Personally I’d love to try it out, maybe some time after I’ve rebuilt some savings since I’m about to spend it all on on MSS.  Also, IIRC, the Audiobro crew acknowledged the demos were kinda lacking and indicated they planned to make some better ones, though that probably won’t be for a while, what with having MSS and then LASS 3 on their plates.

(Any part of this could be wrong, it’s basically just what I recall reading.)


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noc said:


> I do personally feel the demos and walkthrough videos don’t really do enough to sell it on their own, and there’s a disappointing lack of third-party videos about it on YT, so it’s hard for people to get a good idea of what it can do without buying it first.


As far as I know there is only one walkthrough video by Guy Rowland. I wasn't convinced then, also because of the price point. At the moment it's ridiculously low for all the instruments (= 30!) and features you get. To be fair and honest, even the old price was low for the given content.

I think I will buy it anytime after MSS if money allows it. Pity that they don't sell single instruments or sections; I would have pulled the trigger earlier.


----------



## novaburst

Noc said:


> My understanding from reading various MSB discussions is that a combination of factors including lackluster official demos and walkthroughs (too few, too superficial, and not very impressive recording quality), the library not sounding as great out-of-the-box without a certain amount of work (especially compared to competitors like CB or CSB which are much more load-and-play-friendly),


I will never understand this statement about MSB I think this is the brass library I would walk away with if i only had one choice, but I guess we all hear things differently


----------



## Trevor Meier

novaburst said:


> I will never understand this statement about MSB I think this is the brass library I would walk away with if i only had one choice, but I guess we all hear things differently


This makes me curious. Can anyone point to a few great MSB demos?


----------



## Batrawi

Trevor Meier said:


> This makes me curious. Can anyone point to a few great MSB demos?



Not a demo but just a tiny snippet. The library's musicality was enough reason for me to pull the trigger though and I never regretted it especially with the current price.
(I know I referred to this example more than once already whenever MSB gets mention, but I think it's worth spreading to show the library's potential when it's treated carefully/in the right hands)

Post in thread 'Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings' https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-4697697


----------



## novaburst

Trevor Meier said:


> This makes me curious. Can anyone point to a few great MSB demos?


There maybe one or two good demos from users, the intuitive nature of the player and content, tone of the brass was enough for me to grab, the player allows you to go beyond and above. 

But that may not be for every one


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> I admire that optimism!


what about this kind of optimism


----------



## oldbrian

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> As far as I know there is only one walkthrough video by Guy Rowland.


You mean in addition to the total of 80 minutes and 2 seconds of MSB videos released by Audiobro: https://audiobro.com/introduction-to-modern-scoring-brass/ ?


----------



## Batrawi

oldbrian said:


> You mean in addition to the total of 80 minutes and 2 seconds of MSB videos released by Audiobro: https://audiobro.com/introduction-to-modern-scoring-brass/ ?


----------



## Dopplereffect

Trevor Meier said:


> This makes me curious. Can anyone point to a few great MSB demos?


Hi Trevor,

I'm a MSB-user and although I'm not up to the level of most people here, I thought I'd share some stuff. Bear in mind I am a complete amateur and I suck at anything mixing/EQing/reverbing-related so these examples would certainly not fit your "great MSB demos" description. However, it might give some insight as to how the library sounds in the hands of an amateur and so anyone who is any good will make it sound better.

The pieces in this playlist all feature MSB (and only MSB) for brass:






And I thought this one might be interesting (a snippet from a cover song that features brass only (mainly soft) and it makes use of the flugelhorn and the euphonium):


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

oldbrian said:


> You mean in addition to the total of 80 minutes and 2 seconds of MSB videos released by Audiobro: https://audiobro.com/introduction-to-modern-scoring-brass/ ?


Yes. I meant unofficial videos. Link is above. ^


----------



## Evans

Dopplereffect said:


> I'm a MSB-user and although I'm not up to the level of most people here, I thought I'd share some stuff.


Thank you for posting these! It's quite helpful, and there are some very nice moments in these tracks despite your attempt at self degradation.

Outside of the official demos, this might be the only time I've heard MSB used for more than a brief snippet.


----------



## Noeticus

MSB is excellent.


----------



## Evans

How many people have a product with something like A.R.T. and actually use it versus playing everything in (or writing the MIDI by hand)?

I struggle with the idea of not having more "manual" control up front, so I've never bothered to use such features even for libraries in my template that have those capabilities.

The same goes for auto-divisi, really. And any library with polyphonic legato. It feels like a toss-up for me between being more efficient or less efficient.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Never used ART, or similar, nor autodivisi, I input all the notes. A little OCD but composer and OCD go hand in hand


----------



## Piano Pete

Evans said:


> How many people have a product with something like A.R.T. and actually use it versus playing everything in (or writing the MIDI by hand)?
> 
> I struggle with the idea of not having more "manual" control up front, so I've never bothered to use such features even for libraries in my template that have those capabilities.
> 
> The same goes for auto-divisi, really. And any library with polyphonic legato. It feels like a toss-up for me between being more efficient or less efficient.


Depends on the situation. It seems like this gives the best of both worlds, so you can work how you want.

Now, for things like the pre-recorded material, this comes down to whatever sonically sounds the best. If you are purely in the box, this is even truer. In my case, since I deal with a lot of stuff that will end up in front of players, a quick note for music prep and/or an accompanying midi track with the takedown is what I do. Pretty nominal—if you ask me. 

The benefit gained of having something that is sonically convincing (use cases TBD with MSS) without losing much time in the pipeline is a win.

At the end of the day, work how you want. What ultimately matters is the sound. No one cares if you hand wrote it, used loops, or punched each note into a sequencer one at a time.


----------



## Mucusman

I'll admit, I tend not to use tools such as ART (Spitifire has their own tools similar to this, as likely do others), but as I was trying to dive deeper into Modern Scoring Brass last night, I found it quite a helpful tool for some shorts combinations that I would probably struggle with getting right by just trying to play it in. 

I usually keep autodivisi active and like the results in packages that offer it.

As an aside, I A/B'd a dry MSB flugelhorn line out to both EW Spaces II and Liquidsonics Seventh Heaven reverbs (with their settings as similar as I could get them), and found Seventh Heaven provided so much better definition. In the legato lines, the difference was hardly audible. Still learning.


----------



## Noc

Evans said:


> How many people have a product with something like A.R.T. and actually use it versus playing everything in (or writing the MIDI by hand)?
> 
> I struggle with the idea of not having more "manual" control up front, so I've never bothered to use such features even for libraries in my template that have those capabilities.
> 
> The same goes for auto-divisi, really. And any library with polyphonic legato. It feels like a toss-up for me between being more efficient or less efficient.


I’ve never used the ART until now. I may try it out when MSS lands just for the heck of it, but I don’t expect I’ll change how I write to integrate it. I’m too used to writing everything manually (working with a scorewriter rather than a DAW kinda forces you to, not that I mind), and I’ve amassed plenty of tricks and techniques to keep rhythms sounding interesting and nuanced without automated tools.

As for auto-divisi, I don’t use the one in LASS simply because it isn’t very practical with my workflow (requires additional setup I don’t wanna bother with), so I just use separate staves per divisi. But if MSS’s auto-divisi feature is smart and robust enough to do it all automatically within the same patch (one patch for Vln. I A+B, one for Vln. II A+B, etc.) so that playing two or more notes on a staff triggers accurate divisi, I’ll be only too happy to use it.

Man, can’t wait for MSS. I’ll settle for hyping over the next video – hope they do one focused specifically on the auto-divisi …


----------



## Laddy

I'm as curious about the divisi as I am about legato, actually. Wonder if you can get a good chamber sound if you only use half sections. That would sort of mean two libraries in one.


----------



## Casiquire

Evans said:


> How many people have a product with something like A.R.T. and actually use it versus playing everything in (or writing the MIDI by hand)?
> 
> I struggle with the idea of not having more "manual" control up front, so I've never bothered to use such features even for libraries in my template that have those capabilities.
> 
> The same goes for auto-divisi, really. And any library with polyphonic legato. It feels like a toss-up for me between being more efficient or less efficient.


I never use the auto divisi because I write out all my parts, but i do use the ART sometimes for measured tremolo, especially in fast moving lines. Playing or programming each individual hit in such a scenario would be pretty painful by comparison to just holding the sustain pedal and hitting each note once



Laddy said:


> I'm as curious about the divisi as I am about legato, actually. Wonder if you can get a good chamber sound if you only use half sections. That would sort of mean two libraries in one.


Judging by LASS, which is like 18 libraries in one, i think we'll be pleased in this respect too.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Laddy said:


> I'm as curious about the divisi as I am about legato, actually. Wonder if you can get a good chamber sound if you only use half sections. That would sort of mean two libraries in one.


I’m curious about the chamber-sized capabilities of MSS too. The small divisi section sound & soft dynamic layers will be what makes or breaks the purchase decision for me.


----------



## Noc

Trevor Meier said:


> I’m curious about the chamber-sized capabilities of MSS too. The small divisi section sound & soft dynamic layers will be what makes or breaks the purchase decision for me.


I dunno how chamber-like MSS’s divisi will be – the half-sections are 8/7/6/5/4 players, which is quite a bit bigger than some actual chamber strings libraries, like Spitfire Chamber Strings and its 4/3/3/3/3. Maybe a very large chamber ensemble, but closer to a reduced symphonic ensemble at that point. Though of course, tone will be important, too.


----------



## Vik

Laddy said:


> I'm as curious about the divisi as I am about legato, actually. Wonder if you can get a good chamber sound if you only use half sections. That would sort of mean two libraries in one.


Audiobro: "In LASS each section was split into 3 smaller parts (Violins were 4+4+8 for example). MSS uses 2 splits (so 8+8 on Violins)."
So those who wants a chamber sound and the benefits of MSS should probably check out what the price is for both (and if the best way to get a good price is to buy LASS first and then upgrade).


----------



## Vik

Noc said:


> I dunno how chamber-like MSS’s divisi will be – the half-sections are 8/7/6/5/4 players


And Berlin Strings, which doesn't sound like a typical chamber orchestra to me, are 8/6/5/5/4 – MSS' half sections have two more players than full BS. Still, the signal chain and recording technique could maybe help MSS sound more like a chamber orchestra than Berlin does. Btw, PS Vista sounds quite large, and is only 5/4/3/3 (plus a three player overlay) – we can't really count on numbers alone.


----------



## muziksculp

Maybe a new video today ?


----------



## Wunderhorn

Evans said:


> How many people have a product with something like A.R.T. and actually use it versus playing everything in (or writing the MIDI by hand)?


I like writing all parts myself and see the notes and dots in the piano roll editor. Where helpers like the ostinato tool does become useful is when there are recorded ostinati involved that allow for better sounding results than just lining up regular spiccati for example.
In LASS I never used the A.R.T. tool or the Auto Arranger.

However, just lining up things automatically made of regular articulations that are already there does not make a lot of sense to me since most modern sequncers have enough features to write and edit piano roll notes adequately fast. It might be useful for live playing though.


----------



## WinterEmerald

muziksculp said:


> Maybe a new video today ?


Hope so! I think we're going to see legato last in the videos, though.


----------



## ChristianM

Batrawi said:


> what about this kind of optimism


Comic sound 

In french, because in english, it doesn't work : "drôle de son"


----------



## muziksculp

I find it interesting that Auto Rhythm Tools are not popular with many composers.

So, I wonder if AudioBro had sent a survey to LASS 2 users before beginning to develop MSS, asking about how useful is the ART tool for them, they would most likely not bothered with so much new features in MSS related to the ART.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> I find it interesting that Auto Rhythm Tools are not popular with many composers.
> 
> So, I wonder if AudioBro had sent a survey to LASS 2 users before beginning to develop MSS, asking about how useful is the ART tool for them, they would most likely not bothered with so much new features in MSS related to the ART.


I think they're very popular. We're hearing from like five people in this thread out of who knows how many who use the library. It's a mistake to treat these forums as a fair cross section of all composers or all VI users 😊


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I think they're very popular. We're hearing from like five people in this thread out of who knows how many who use the library. It's a mistake to treat these forums as a fair cross section of all composers or all VI users 😊


Maybe, I have not come across one post indicating that they love using the ART tool, or use it frequently. But I agree it's hard to generalize based on a few posts in forums.


----------



## yellow_lupine

If I am not wrong, they said new videos would be available when the corresponding features will be completed.
Now their website still says "end of January" but it seems many videos (and therefore many features) are yet to come...

@dxmachina could you please tell us if that deadline is still valid? Thanks


----------



## muziksculp

I also wonder if we will get to hear a healthy number of Audio Demos of MSS once it is released, or we will have to wait a while for the audio demos even after the release.


----------



## WinterEmerald

yellow_lupine said:


> If I am not wrong, they said new videos would be available when the corresponding features will be completed.
> Now their website still says "end of January" but it seems many videos (and therefore many features) are yet to come...
> 
> @dxmachina could you please tell us if that deadline is still valid? Thanks


It's been "End of January" since the end of December so not much changed, though when asked about keeping to the release date, they said "we're working on it", so whether or not it'll still be this month isn't fully certain yet.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Maybe, I have not come across one post indicating that they love using the ART tool, or use it frequently. But I agree it's hard to generalize based on a few posts in forums.


Except for me! Lol


----------



## WinterEmerald

muziksculp said:


> I also wonder if we will get to hear a healthy number of Audio Demos of MSS once it is released, or we will have to wait a while for the audio demos even after the release.


Pretty sure I remember them saying all demos will be released when the library itself is


----------



## Batrawi

Vik said:


> MSS uses 2 splits (so 8+8 on Violins)


Yeah, that symmetric divisi split for all sections makes think that Audiobro's effort may have been doubled in vain... cause (even with different players) the same number of players would make both divisis sound very similar. I think it would have been much better & added value to the diversity of the library if the splits were uneven, like 10+6 / 9+5 / 8+4 / 7+3 / 5+3 for example


----------



## Noeticus

Or, 4+4+4+4 divisi for the 16 violins.


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> Yeah, that symmetric divisi split for all sections makes think that Audiobro's effort may have been doubled in vain... cause (even with different players) the same number of players would make both divisis sound very similar. I think it would have been much better & added value to the diversity of the library if the splits were uneven, like 10+6 / 9+5 / 8+4 / 7+3 / 5+3 for example


I think i disagree, though we'll see once it's in our hands. The A and B in LASS sound quite different. I'm sure they would have taken players into account like they did back then. One divisi section was intentionally heavier on the vibrato than the other


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I think i disagree, though we'll see once it's in our hands. The A and B in LASS sound quite different. I'm sure they would have taken players into account like they did back then. One divisi section was intentionally heavier on the vibrato than the other


Good Players = A Divisi Group
Bad Players = B Divisi Group

Now you have a great combo and contrast when you need it.


----------



## novaburst

Vik said:


> Audiobro: "In LASS each section was split into 3 smaller parts (Violins were 4+4+8 for example). MSS uses 2 splits (so 8+8 on Violins)."
> So those who wants a chamber sound and the benefits of MSS should probably check out what the price is for both (and if the best way to get a good price is to buy LASS first and then upgrade).


I am guessing the player will have the ex\t features as MSB please observe the ensemble performance Edit


----------



## zimm83

Pablocrespo said:


> Never used ART, or similar, nor autodivisi, I input all the notes. A little OCD but composer and OCD go hand in hand


I dream of using ART and auto divisi with polyphonic legato. One day i will buy Msb and MSS. À dream for me.. everything can be done in realtime....i wanted those features for years and now here they are...Just need a better internet connexion..hummmm


----------



## Noeticus

Perhaps... just 4 days to go!


----------



## WinterEmerald

I refresh their video page like a crack addict


----------



## Wunderhorn

WinterEmerald said:


> I refresh their video page like a crack addict


Not even Spitfire has been able to pump up the levels of anticipation like this one... 

Let's just hope the legatos in the anticipation finale aren't gonna be the ankle biters on the Achilles's heel. No - I have faith. LASS already proved that Audiobro can do legato. I am not worried.


----------



## Raphioli

Noeticus said:


> Perhaps... just 4 days to go!


About the "4 days".

My personal guess was that "by the end of January" meant "by Jan 29th", because 30th and 31st are weekends.
Unless Audiobro is thinking of releasing it on a weekend.
That'll probably mean lots of questions or support tickets to answer on a weekend.

So my final guess would be, if everything is on schedule. Remaining videos they plan to release, all demos and the library itself is going to be released on the 29th.
OR, they're going to announce a delay on the 29th.
(Unless they're thinking about working on weekends)


----------



## WinterEmerald

Wunderhorn said:


> Not even Spitfire has been able to pump up the levels of anticipation like this one...
> 
> Let's just hope the legatos in the anticipation finale aren't gonna be the ankle biters on the Achilles's heel. No - I have faith. LASS already proved that Audiobro can do legato. I am not worried.


Likewise, I of course need to be rational and await to hear their legato (though I am already so so so excited), but everything suggests that their legato will be amazing. The fact LASS' legato still holds up so so well, they know their legato.


----------



## JohannesR

Raphioli said:


> About the "4 days".
> 
> My personal guess was that "by the end of January" meant "by Jan 29th", because 30th and 31st are weekends.
> Unless Audiobro is thinking of releasing it on a weekend.
> That'll probably mean lots of questions or support tickets to answer on a weekend.
> 
> So my final guess would be, if everything is on schedule. Remaining videos they plan to release, all demos and the library itself is going to be released on the 29th.
> OR, they're going to announce a delay on the 29th.
> (Unless they're thinking about working on weekends)


If they've been working on this for years, I'm sure they'd be fine working ONE weekend around the release date


----------



## novaburst

Wunderhorn said:


> Not even Spitfire has been able to pump up the levels of anticipation like this one...


this


----------



## Raphioli

JohannesR said:


> If they've been working on this for years, I'm sure they'd be fine working ONE weekend around the release date


Yeah, that’s a good guess!

But if I’m right (and considering my price guess was right),
I probably should have used that luck/guess in Vegas


----------



## novaburst

Wunderhorn said:


> I am not worried.


Is that sweat i see in your palm


----------



## borisb2

WinterEmerald said:


> I refresh their video page like a crack addict


Whenever I check in here and see, there is another new page after I visited last time, I think “oh well, lets read the latest discussion”.. when I check in and see there are suddenly 4 new pages I know: YES, new video!


----------



## muziksculp

borisb2 said:


> Whenever I check in here and see, there is another new page after I visited last time, I think “oh well, lets read the latest discussion”.. when I check in and see there are suddenly 4 new pages I know: YES, new video!


Sorry, No new Video/s Today. Check back tomorrow


----------



## borisb2

muziksculp said:


> Sorry, No new Video/s Today. Check back tomorrow


Damn, that means I actually have to create music now


----------



## givemenoughrope

legatos?

edit- just teasing btw...eager to hear the more of an already great-sounding library


----------



## Wunderhorn

novaburst said:


> Is that sweat i see in your palm


No, but I admit to feel a little antsy regarding MSS. I got LASS when it came out and it has been my bread-and-butter string workhorse since then. I have resisted other string libraries over the years (Century Strings2, Spitfire, Afflatus, OT etc.) in favor of waiting it out until the new re-work of Audiobro's LASS which as we know now, is MSS. Of course I got countless specialty string libraries over the years but I always thought I'd want to see what Audiobro will do. It has been a long time in the making and it just looks more and more like I made the right decision to hold back. So far the demos are amazing and the extras go above and beyond.

If there's anything I would be concerned of is the famous "Release 1.0" syndrome which is of course hard to control, but whether that turns out to be something that might spoil the joy we won't know until it's in the template.


----------



## novaburst

Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro


Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.



audiobro.com





There is another vid but still no legato


----------



## Eptesicus

novaburst said:


> Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is another vid but still no legato



Still only four as far as I can see.


----------



## FKVStudio

novaburst said:


> Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is another vid but still no legato


I also. I only watch the 4 videos that have been released so far.


----------



## FireGS

novaburst said:


> Modern Scoring Strings - Audiobro
> 
> 
> Modern Scoring Strings is our newest and most recently recorded 60 piece “a2” divisi (2 parts divisi per section) flagship string library.
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is another vid but still no legato


STOP GETTING OUR HOPES UP


----------



## Raphioli

I'm only seeing 4 video as well.

Unless people are starting to see things xD

I mean, if I stare at the MSS page, I think I can start seeing a legato video.
I think I need to focus my force more.


----------



## lettucehat

UPDATE: nothing has changed


----------



## novaburst

I o ly believed there to be 3 vids I must of missed one sorry about that


----------



## novaburst

lettucehat said:


> UPDATE: nothing has changed


I think that is me, no jokes incurring I believed there to be only 3,vids


----------



## constaneum

Raphioli said:


> I'm only seeing 4 video as well.
> 
> Unless people are starting to see things xD
> 
> I mean, if I stare at the MSS page, I think I can start seeing a legato video.
> I think I need to focus my force more.


Started seeing things...gosh...that's a sign of mental illness already. 😅😅😅


----------



## Noeticus

I wonder how many times globally F5 is pressed on a PC in a single day?

Cause.... I just pressed it.


----------



## GingerMaestro

JohannesR said:


> If they've been working on this for years, I'm sure they'd be fine working ONE weekend around the release date


Every professional musician or composer I know works at the weekend. Music is not a 9-5 job, you just do whatever hours your need to get the project finished.

Andrew K has been very transparent on here saying they are doing their best to get this out before the end of January. If it’s a couple of weeks later than anticipated what‘s the big deal ? There’s a lot of content in this and I can’t wait to get my hands on it, I feel they really are doing something new and exciting with this, not yet another boring string library...

First world problems !


----------



## lumcas

Noeticus said:


> I wonder how many times globally F5 is pressed on a PC in a single day?
> 
> Cause.... I just pressed it.


Does Cmd-R count?


----------



## jaketanner

My wish is the the sound they achieved with NI Symphonic Strings but the playability of LASS...or just a better (much better) legato than NI.


----------



## Noeticus

lumcas said:


> Does Cmd-R count?


I assume that is a Mac thing? 

Also, when you really want to see if the page is updated, the old, press 'control F5' does the trick.


----------



## robh

Not only do I refresh the page, I find myself watching the latest two videos repeatedly as well!


----------



## Zedcars

Just got done reading 67 pages. Wake me up when it’s here.


----------



## Kevinside

I watched the shorts video...

Tell me, what is great on the MMS Short articulations... (is there a marcato?)
I admit, i am not a fan of the MMS Shorts...they sound very sterile and artificial...
But this is my personal opinion and maybe i am wrong and the actual release brings more to the table...
What do you think about the shorts with all the limitations...

And, what i don´t like, is the room... The close mics are great, but the room is not my taste...
But this is only a opinion from the videos...
Where is MSS recorded?


----------



## Batrawi

Noeticus said:


> I wonder how many times globally F5 is pressed on a PC in a single day?
> 
> Cause.... I just pressed it.


I just mapped F5 to my sustains pedal


----------



## Eptesicus

Kevinside said:


> I watched the shorts video...
> 
> Tell me, what is great on the MMS Short articulations... (is there a marcato?)
> I admit, i am not a fan of the MMS Shorts...they sound very sterile and artificial...
> But this is my personal opinion and maybe i am wrong and the actual release brings more to the table...
> What do you think about the shorts with all the limitations...
> 
> And, what i don´t like, is the room... The close mics are great, but the room is not my taste...
> But this is only a opinion from the videos...
> Where is MSS recorded?



I thought the shorts were fine. They didn't knock my spots off or sound any better than other shorts from other good libraries but they didn't sound bad either.


----------



## jaketanner

Kevinside said:


> I watched the shorts video...
> 
> Tell me, what is great on the MMS Short articulations... (is there a marcato?)
> I admit, i am not a fan of the MMS Shorts...they sound very sterile and artificial...
> But this is my personal opinion and maybe i am wrong and the actual release brings more to the table...
> What do you think about the shorts with all the limitations...
> 
> And, what i don´t like, is the room... The close mics are great, but the room is not my taste...
> But this is only a opinion from the videos...
> Where is MSS recorded?


I didn't like the tone either...at all. I think it's along the lines of these over processed string sounds like some other libraries have. And what's with all that reverb?..hope that is not baked in.


----------



## muziksculp

Given that we have 3 more days to the end of Jan., and there are a lot of features that need to be shown by Audiobro videos, we could expect a video, or maybe two videos today, but that's just me guessing.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Given that we have 3 more days to the end of Jan., and there are a lot of features that need to be shown by Audiobro videos, we could expect a video, or maybe two videos today, but that's just me guessing.





FireGS said:


> STOP GETTING OUR HOPES UP


----------



## muziksculp

jaketanner said:


> I didn't like the tone either...at all. I think it's along the lines of these over processed string sounds like some other libraries have. And what's with all that reverb?..hope that is not baked in.


Yes, it's a horrible sounding library. Please don't bother buying it, and enjoy the BBCSO.


----------



## Kevinside

So MSS uses their own IRs in Kontakt, cause the room, where everything was recorded is so bad... 
sry sarcasm now off...

What the hell is BBCSO? Is someone really using this?


----------



## Noeticus

The MSS SHORTS sound truly great to my ears, but then I have a top notch sound system, and a little badge that says, "yeah, that's right, damn it!".


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> enjoy the BBCSO.


Shots fired.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Shots fired.


Hehe... They were just blanks  for some fun


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Hehe... They were just blanks  for some fun


Blanks, maybe, but good aim regardless.


----------



## ansthenia

I like mostly everything I've seen and heard about this library so far. My only issue is the room sound is overly boomy, but some EQ can fix that.


----------



## chapbot

jaketanner said:


> I didn't like the tone either...at all. I think it's along the lines of these over processed string sounds like some other libraries have. And what's with all that reverb?..hope that is not baked in.


Where have you been?? Haven't seen you lately!


----------



## WinterEmerald

muziksculp said:


> Given that we have 3 more days to the end of Jan., and there are a lot of features that need to be shown by Audiobro videos, we could expect a video, or maybe two videos today, but that's just me guessing.


Maybe all the following material will be released as they fully release the library


----------



## muziksculp

WinterEmerald said:


> Maybe all the following material will be released as they fully release the library


I hope that's not the case, three more days with no new MSS videos ?!! I need a Doctor.


----------



## sinkd

Batrawi said:


> Yeah, that symmetric divisi split for all sections makes think that Audiobro's effort may have been doubled in vain... cause (even with different players) the same number of players would make both divisis sound very similar. I think it would have been much better & added value to the diversity of the library if the splits were uneven, like 10+6 / 9+5 / 8+4 / 7+3 / 5+3 for example


Possibly, but I think evenly split two-part divisi is what is most typical. I really like the the way the three-part divisis stack up in LASS, though and those are of differing sizes.


----------



## yellow_lupine

muziksculp said:


> I hope that's not the case, three more days with no new MSS videos ?!! I need a Doctor.


And still no sign of responses from dxmachina...


----------



## Evans

I think the next video is the big one we've all been waiting for.

Pizzicato.


----------



## muziksculp

*:emoji_pizza:**o*


----------



## karender

New video is up


----------



## Lazeez

karender said:


> New video is up


Hmmm... the legato sounds a little bumpy


----------



## Zedcars

karender said:


> New video is up


You got me. 🤦‍♂️

(then I started to enjoy it, I ain’t gonna lie!)


----------



## PerryD

muziksculp said:


> *:emoji_pizza:**o*


Not to be confused with a pissy gato. That reminds me, I gotta go clean the litter box...


----------



## Noeticus

3 day to go.........!!!


----------



## Wunderhorn

Noeticus said:


> 3 day to go.........!!!


They obviously need more time for the videos. So in 3 days then, in order to keep the deadline, that's when the _*pre-order*_ starts. Actual delivery at Easter. Unless someone else releases another string library during that time. Then it'll be bumped to summer solstice.


----------



## Zedcars

Um...they don’t say which January...


----------



## Noeticus

3 videos, in 3 days.... sounds good.

Let's watch'em.


----------



## lettucehat

Get an auto-refresh browser extension + dedicated monitor for MSS product page... you absolute noobs!


----------



## Zedcars

lettucehat said:


> Get an auto-refresh browser extension + dedicated monitor for MSS product page... you absolute noobs!


I already did.


----------



## ansthenia

They did say in this thread somewhere that they will be creating promotional and walkthrough material both before and after release. So, I don't think it's out of the question that MSS could release before all the videos are done.


----------



## muziksculp

ansthenia said:


> They did say in this thread somewhere that they will be creating promotional and walkthrough material both before and after release. So, I don't think it's out of the question that MSS could release before all the videos are done.


They also mentioned that we will see videos released faster, but that's not the case.


----------



## Casiquire

ansthenia said:


> They did say in this thread somewhere that they will be creating promotional and walkthrough material both before and after release. So, I don't think it's out of the question that MSS could release before all the videos are done.


If I recall, a lot of the MSB walkthroughs followed the release too. Could be misremembering


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> If I recall, a lot of the MSB walkthroughs followed the release too. Could be misremembering


That’s my memory too, and they came rather slowly. They also never did release many demos for MSB.


----------



## FireGS

karender said:


> New video is up


I......dislike you


----------



## jaketanner

chapbot said:


> Where have you been?? Haven't seen you lately!


So many threads...LOL. Actually I lost a bit of interest in this library since the BBC and then NSS...etc etc...LOL But curiosity brought me back.


----------



## Zedcars

To release a major sample library such as this at any time, let alone during a worldwide pandemic is ruddy marvellous and a testament to just how incredibly dedicated and passionate the people involved in its creation, at every stage, must be. I am not certain whether I will buy this yet, but this bears no reflection on the respect I have for the musicians, recording engineers, audio editors, Kontakt script writers, and everyone else.


----------



## Batrawi

I have a feeling today will be a big day. Either they'll release the library, or release the legato(+remaining) video or release another release date.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Let's hope so, since he haven't been getting any news for days


----------



## borisb2

Batrawi said:


> have a feeling today will be a big day


The day is already over here in NZ


----------



## mcalis

Batrawi said:


> I have a feeling today will be a big day. Either they'll release the library, or release the legato(+remaining) video or release another release date.


I have a feeling today will be a sunny day, or a rainy day, or a snowy day, or a windy day.


----------



## borisb2

mcalis said:


> I have a feeling today will be a sunny day, or a rainy day, or a snowy day, or a windy day.


The day is already over here in NZ

... sorry, couldn’t resist


----------



## Laurin Lenschow

mcalis said:


> I have a feeling today will be a sunny day, or a rainy day, or a snowy day, or a windy day.


What about cloudy though?


----------



## Zedcars

When we’re with her the weather is wetter than Windsor and windier than Winchester which is why we would waiver whenever the weather is warmer than winter we would wish we were with her whether the weather is wonderfully welcome or witheringly wild.


----------



## FireGS

borisb2 said:


> The day is already over here in NZ


I miss NZ :( Fiordland in my profile pic


----------



## GingerMaestro

Eptesicus said:


> I thought the shorts were fine. They didn't knock my spots off or sound any better than other shorts from other good libraries but they didn't sound bad either.


I thought the shorts sounded great. This is one of the things that I am short on in my library (pardon the pun) especially a variety of Martele, variable length marcato articulations.

I‘d be curious to know which libraries are superior to these shorts, especially the martele ?


----------



## Selfinflicted

I'm incredibly excited for this. I'll be pleasantly surprised if this is released in the next few days. It looks like a huge undertaking and he did say 'estimate release.' Have they ever released on their estimated release date? I think it's just the nature of the beast. And when their stuff comes out and everyone sees how amazing it is, does anyone care that it was later than when they estimated? Certain other developers have no problem releasing stuff before the kinks have been worked out. I find that incredibly frustrating. I'd rather wait and have them do it right..... (so long is it's not too too long!).

I'm definitely eager to jump into it, though. Sounds and looks great. I'm sure it'll take a little bit to work it into the workflow and template.


----------



## ChristianM

mcalis said:


> I have a feeling today will be a sunny day, or a rainy day, or a snowy day, or a windy day.


you forgot the earthquakes and the clouds of locusts!


----------



## Noeticus

ChristianM said:


> you forgot the earthquakes and the clouds of locusts!


All accompanied with aleatoric string effects from MSS.


----------



## Batrawi

Batrawi said:


> I have a feeling today will be a big day.


I have a feeling today will not a big day.


----------



## Lazeez

Batrawi said:


> I have a feeling today will not a big day.


At least its Friday. TGIF.


----------



## muziksculp

More MSS Videos Please !


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Officially delayed to 15th February. 😢


----------



## Zedcars

New update on the website:

“Estimated 15th February.”


----------



## muziksculp

Zedcars said:


> New update on the website:
> 
> “Estimated 15th February.”


I was expecting that. Not surprised at all.


----------



## Zedcars

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Officially delayed to 15th February. 😢


Not too long. Just a little over 2 weeks.


----------



## muziksculp

But, I wish they didn't use the word 'Estimated' again. They can easily bump it to March.


----------



## krismiller1982

Well poop... This stimulus cash has been burning a hole in my pocket. Should've invested it in GameStop stock.


----------



## muziksculp

I wonder what happened ? If the library was ready for release. So, could they be editing it again ?


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> But, I wish they didn't use the word 'Estimated' again.


Better not to make it definite in case they need more time. That would probably annoy some people. I would not be annoyed but I’ve seen what happened with other companies. Better just to get it right.


----------



## Raphioli

Zedcars said:


> New update on the website:
> 
> “Estimated 15th February.”


I kinda knew it.


Raphioli said:


> So my final guess would be, if everything is on schedule. Remaining videos they plan to release, all demos and the library itself is going to be released on the 29th.
> OR, they're going to announce a delay on the 29th.
> (Unless they're thinking about working on weekends)



Because they did say the video were going to be release more quicker, but we really didn't see that.

Personally I think they should've announced a delay for like several months just to be sure/safe.
Because you never know what'll go wrong. If it becomes available earlier than that, that's a win for both sides.


----------



## Zedcars

Unforeseen hiccups happen. You think you’re ready to go and then you notice another problem. Everyone has experienced this with something they’ve worked on before I’m sure. Editing takes time, bug fixing takes time. Rushing things out the door when it’s not ready is probably worse than a delay.


----------



## Raphioli

muziksculp said:


> But, I wish they didn't use the word 'Estimated' again. They can easily bump it to March.


I think its ok to use the word "estimated", but I do agree with you about pushing it back more just to be safe.


----------



## Zedcars

Statement:




> Hey everyone, we need a little more time. We are very busy putting the final touches on this library (creating lots of presets, unifying the key-switches for a better user experience, testing the store, and download integrations). We’re also working feverishly on more videos and demos but we think we can make https://vi-control.net/community/x-apple-data-detectors://1 (February 15th.) Sorry for the delay and thank you for your patience.​


----------



## muziksculp

Good news. Looking forward to Feb. 15th.


----------



## Batrawi

Batrawi said:


> I have a feeling today will be a big day. Either they'll release the library, or release the legato(+remaining) video or release another release date.


so I was right  
now SHIT 😡


----------



## amorphosynthesis

Zedcars said:


> Statement:


I feel that we, the vi-controllers, deserve an additional 10% additional discount.....just for reading 71 pages of long hanging threads:emoji_angel:


----------



## Vik

“_Estimated_ 15th February” means that they hope to release it then, but also that they're not sure if they'll make it that date, which is fine by me – and when they say 'estimated' in this context, I find it more likely that it will be later than mid February than not. In threads like these it sometimes seems that those who already have tell us that they have more string libraries than they need are the most eager to a new library, and I also check this thread regularly even if I have several great libraries. Maybe we all need medication? Should we consider injecting some disinfectant or put some light in our bodies in a shared ritual on YouTube in hope that it will cure us all?


----------



## muziksculp

Are MSS Legatos Monophonic, or does it also offer Polyphonic Legatos. My guess it's only Monophonic Legatos, but wanted to double check.


----------



## Dopplereffect

muziksculp said:


> Are MSS Legatos Monophonic, or does it also offer Polyphonic Legatos. My guess it's only Monophonic Legatos, but wanted to double check.


I'd say they'll be offering both, as with all their previously released libs...


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> Are MSS Legatos Monophonic, or does it also offer Polyphonic Legatos. My guess it's only Monophonic Legatos, but wanted to double check.


Of course polyphonic, it’s the concept of the library: Auto-Divisi = Polyphonic Legato

But I think it‘s still monophonic when playing one divisi section. So it‘s not polyphonic as other libraries use the term, because it would contradict the concept.


----------



## Jish

Heh, It would be funny if most of the top 'anticipated' releases for the year got delayed to 2022 (MSS, HOPUS, Sonokinetic Strings, Infinite Strings, ect) and some old-school developer came back from seemingly nowhere and released a new and revolutionary library that just dominated the industry for the rest of the decade: 'Dan Dean Modern Symphonic Motions' 'Westgate Winds on Call'


----------



## Evans

I would imagine they chose this date with great care. Any time you state a specific number - a date, a dollar amount - the buyer will remember that number, for better or worse. Changes to said number(s) - "estimate" or otherwise - reduces buyer confidence.

Audiobro seems like a smart group and I imagine learned a few things from what seemed like a rockier launch with Modern Scoring Brass. I'm glad they're taking their time while expressing some urgency. They don't want to have a poor first showing, but also don't want to get swallowed up among other news and create fussy users with additional delays.

But at some point, you just gotta release some dang software.


----------



## yellow_lupine

muziksculp said:


> But, I wish they didn't use the word 'Estimated' again. They can easily bump it to March.


This. Moreover didn’t they delay it again on last december?? That time also “finishing touches” were missing and now we are here again with another estimated date... if you can’t establish a release date don’t give that, simply tell “on 2021”


----------



## muziksculp

yellow_lupine said:


> This. Moreover didn’t they delay it again on last december?? That time also “finishing touches” were missing and now we are here again with another estimated date... if you can’t establish a release date don’t give that, simply tell “on 2021”


Yes, exactly... let's not forget we are into the second delay here, end of Dec 2020, then end of Jan 2021, and now(estimated) Mid-Feb 2021, ...and then ... March, April, ..etc ?


----------



## Zedcars

A delay in the context of a self-imposed deadline is like saying to all your friends you will run a marathon in under 4 hours but then taking an hour. Still impressive but with slightly less impact.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Yes, exactly... let's not forget we are into the second delay here, end of Dec 2020, then end of Jan 2021, and now(estimated) Mid-Feb 2021, ...and then ... March, April, ..etc ?


Whoa, there, don't be hasty. There's an entire calendar to choose from!


----------



## muziksculp

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Of course polyphonic, it’s the concept of the library: Auto-Divisi = Polyphonic Legato
> 
> But I think it‘s still monophonic when playing one divisi section. So it‘s not polyphonic as other libraries use the term, because it would contradict the concept.


Yes, I see. I would not qualify it as real Polyphonic Legato, but rather, it's Multiple Monophonic Legatos.


----------



## muziksculp

It seems like Delays are the trendy/popular thing this year. 

I better get used to them.


----------



## Dopplereffect

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I see. I would not qualify it as real Polyphonic Legato, but rather, it's Multiple Monophonic Legatos.


Are there libraries that offer "real polyphonic" legato as opposed to "multiple monophonic" legato? And what exactly is the difference?


----------



## Raphioli

Evans said:


> Any time you state a specific number - a date, a dollar amount - the buyer will remember that number, for better or worse.


Exactly.

Thats why I thought they should've just announced a delay for several months to be safe.
I'm sure no ones going to complain about them releasing it earlier than planned if its ready for release.


----------



## chapbot

chapbot said:


> "Polish is always appreciated" - true, but years of polish is a bit much. Please, please do not hold your breath for a January release with this company 🤣


Here's a helpful reminder I posted back in December. Supposedly the library was done then but something something about Native Instruments delaying something something so they thought they would add a few extras or something something. It's beginning to border on ridiculousness.


----------



## chapbot

Zedcars said:


> Better not to make it definite in case they need more time. That would probably annoy some people. I would not be annoyed but I’ve seen what happened with other companies. Better just to get it right.


They shouldn't even have a date, just say "coming 2021."


----------



## muziksculp

Dopplereffect said:


> Are there libraries that offer "real polyphonic" legato as opposed to "multiple monophonic" legato? And what exactly is the difference?


I think what I was initially asking is if one plays let's say a chord progression using MSS, with tutti strings, no divisi function is enabled, all sections of the strings playing the chords, does each note of the chord played gets a legato transition to the next note ? If Yes, then MSS offers Polyphonic Legato.

8Dio Century Strings 2, and Century Brass 2, and Strezov Sampling's Afflatus Strings offer Polyphonic Legato, non of them has Divisi functionality.


----------



## Dopplereffect

The funny thing is that I've read multiple times that the Audiobro guys really REALLY don't like making announcements about release dates, but they are pretty much non-stop asked to do exactly that...


----------



## Noeticus

Weeeeeeeee! 2 days to go!

Just kiddin'.

:(


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Dopplereffect said:


> Are there libraries that offer "real polyphonic" legato as opposed to "multiple monophonic" legato? And what exactly is the difference?


Many claim to have polyphonic legato, the only one which is really playable is in VI Pro and Synchron Player (VSL), as far as I know. I think it‘s also important how the library is scripted.

Polyphonic = play multi-voice with one patch (like you would play a sustain patch)

Multiple monophonic = requires multiple patches, each voice you play triggers another patch (auto-divisi); though every patch stays monophonic


----------



## muziksculp

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Many claim to have polyphonic legato, the only one which is really playable is in VI Pro (VSL), as far as I know. I think it‘s also important how the library is scripted.
> 
> Polyphonic = play multi-voice with one patch (like you would play a sustain patch)
> 
> Multiple monophonic = requires multiple patches, every voice you play triggers another patch (auto-divisi); though every patch stays monophonic


8Dio Century Strings 2, Century Brass 2, and Strezov Sampling's Afflatus Strings offer Polyphonic Legato, non of them has Divisi functionality.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> 8Dio Century Strings 2, and Century Brass 2, and Strezov Sampling's Afflatus Strings offer Polyphonic Legato, non of them has Divisi functionality.


I know, but it‘s not quite as good as VSL. Only have Century.


----------



## Dopplereffect

muziksculp said:


> 8Dio Century Strings 2, Century Brass 2, and Strezov Sampling's Afflatus Strings offer Polyphonic Legato, non of them has Divisi functionality.


If MSS is set up like MSB, I believe they will offer both (but in both cases auto-divisi must be enabled):
1) A single patch consisting of Vlns I A/B and Vlns II A/B which will play 4-part chords of which all notes will be connected legato
2) You can load up patches for Violins, Violas, Celli and Basses and have these set up so that when you play e.g. a 6-part chord the two top notes will be played by Violins I and II, the middle note by violas, and the bottom notes played by celli/basses, all being connected legato.

EDIT: I don't think option 2) will be offered in a single patch , though.

(That is, if I am not mistaking about this and MSS works indeed as MSB)


----------



## muziksculp

I don't know much about MSB. Hopefully when AudioBro releases their MSS Legato Video, they will explain their Legato system in detail, and in all scenarios when using MSS.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

I also don‘t have MSB. But as I said polyphonic legato on one patch contradicts the whole philosophy of Audiobro. It would yield in this "dreaded, fake sounding samples build-up sound."


----------



## Dopplereffect

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I also don‘t have MSB. But as I said polyphonic legato on one patch contradicts the whole philosophy of Audiobro. It would yield in this "dreaded, fake sounding samples build-up sound."


Indeed!

However, in MSB they actually offer the possibility nonetheless. For instance: You can load up a single instrument and play 8-part harmonies. The auto-divisi will connect them all with legato (and in this case the same instrument is used for all 8 parts). You can do the same with e.g. a 4 trumpet patch and go beyond 4-part writing. In that case the auto-divisi engine will automattically re-use instruments already involved. You can also manually set up exactly which instrument you want to be used for the 6th, 7th, 8th part...


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Dopplereffect said:


> Indeed!
> 
> However, in MSB they actually offer the possibility nonetheless. For instance: You can load up a single instrument and play 8-part harmonies. The auto-divisi will connect them all with legato (and in this case the same instrument is used for all 8 parts). You can do the same with e.g. a 4 trumpet patch and go beyond 4-part writing. In that case the auto-divisi engine will automattically re-use instruments already involved. You can also manually set up exactly which instrument you want to be used for the 6th, 7th, 8th part...


Yes, but it‘s not polyphonic on one patch (= instrument). You describe a patch consisting of several instruments.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Yes, but it‘s not polyphonic on one patch (= instrument). You describe a patch consisting of several instruments.


Well no. As I said you can do this with a single instrument (consisting of e.g. a single alto trombone) too...


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Dopplereffect said:


> Well no. As I said you can do this with a single instrument (consisting of e.g. a single alto trombone) too...


Okay, I misread. That‘s interesting! I mean wow, that‘s great.


----------



## rampant

Hey, if audiobro can keep pushing the release date back until I find a stable 9-5 office job and can drop $549 on a new string library, that would be _fantastic_ by me


----------



## dxmachina

Hi folks,

_Sorry_ for the delay. We are really bummed not to hit January as well. There are no major hiccups... just need two more weeks to have videos, manuals, demos, and the store all ready. But we tried like crazy to make January. Anyway, we appreciate your patience and there will be more videos coming very shortly.

In terms of polyphonic legato, auto divisi, mono legato, mono polyrhythmic auto parcheesi... yes it has all those things. I think we need to do a better job explaining how all that works. To be clear, yes you can use a combined patch and have poly legato with auto divisi splits happening at the same time. Just play chords. You can also completely customize your sections (which section plays lead, how sections split, etc). And yes, you can also play poly legato using a single divisi if you want. And of course you can get back to note-overlap-mono-legato as well. But our goal is always to be able to load and play with poly-leg/auto-divisi without needing to worry about the setup.

Anyway, thanks again for being so gracious about the delay (..gulp..). I strongly think this will be worth the extra two weeks wait.


----------



## Noeticus

Hello dxmachina,

Could you please list the names etc. of all the Aleatoric articulations/effects that will come with MSS?


----------



## lettucehat

We love you don't worry. More time to save up. Other deals expiring end of month anyway.


----------



## Wlad

dxmachina said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> _Sorry_ for the delay. We are really bummed not to hit January as well. There are no major hiccups... just need two more weeks to have videos, manuals, demos, and the store all ready. But we tried like crazy to make January. Anyway, we appreciate your patience and there will be more videos coming very shortly.
> 
> In terms of polyphonic legato, auto divisi, mono legato, mono polyrhythmic auto parcheesi... yes it has all those things. I think we need to do a better job explaining how all that works. To be clear, yes you can use a combined patch and have poly legato with auto divisi splits happening at the same time. Just play chords. You can also completely customize your sections (which section plays lead, how sections split, etc). And yes, you can also play poly legato using a single divisi if you want. And of course you can get back to note-overlap-mono-legato as well. But our goal is always to be able to load and play with poly-leg/auto-divisi without needing to worry about the setup.
> 
> Anyway, thanks again for being so gracious about the delay (..gulp..). I strongly think this will be worth the extra two weeks wait.


Now this is a perfect example of how you should communicate with your customers. Unlike disrespectful, lying and arrogant suits from EastWest.

Thank you, sir. Take as long as you need to finish this great product of yours.


----------



## muziksculp

@dxmachina, Thanks for the feedback. No problem waiting could be fun, especially if we get some more MSS videos to watch while we wait. 

Looking forward to Feb. 15th. and the big launch of MSS.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Assuming that MSS offers wonderful strings timbre/sonic character, and you can also choose from various sonic characters/timbres that suit your needs. Also offers great Legatos, easy to use Auto-Divisi, no more complex setup like LASS. 

And, with all the new features that are packed into MSS, I'm curious, what would be a reason/s for not buying MSS given that the price/affordability is not an issue ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Wlad

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Assuming that MSS offers wonderful strings timbre/sonic character, and you can also choose from various sonic characters/timbres that suit your needs. Also offers great Legatos, easy to use Auto-Divisi, no more complex setup like LASS.
> 
> And, with all the new features that are packed into MSS, I'm curious, what would be a reason/s for not buying MSS given that the price/affordability is not an issue ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


In my opinion, there are non. I know we should always be cautious and not speak ahead of time, but I think this aims to be the best string library so far.


----------



## FireGS

dxmachina said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> _Sorry_ for the delay. We are really bummed not to hit January as well. There are no major hiccups... just need two more weeks to have videos, manuals, demos, and the store all ready. But we tried like crazy to make January. Anyway, we appreciate your patience and there will be more videos coming very shortly.
> 
> In terms of polyphonic legato, auto divisi, mono legato, mono polyrhythmic auto parcheesi... yes it has all those things. I think we need to do a better job explaining how all that works. To be clear, yes you can use a combined patch and have poly legato with auto divisi splits happening at the same time. Just play chords. You can also completely customize your sections (which section plays lead, how sections split, etc). And yes, you can also play poly legato using a single divisi if you want. And of course you can get back to note-overlap-mono-legato as well. But our goal is always to be able to load and play with poly-leg/auto-divisi without needing to worry about the setup.
> 
> Anyway, thanks again for being so gracious about the delay (..gulp..). I strongly think this will be worth the extra two weeks wait.


THATS IT. IM DONE WITH THIS COMPANY. SOMETHINGSOMETHINGSOMETHING ABOUT PREORDERS AND DELAYS AND NAMM2021 AND YELLING.


----------



## muziksculp

Wlad said:


> In my opinion, there are non. I know we should always be causes and not speak ahead of time, but I think this aims to be the best string library so far.


I just wanted to check the pulse of the community here regarding MSS, and the expectations we have about it.

I'm just thinking if it has all these features, and sounds wonderful, and can be quite flexible sonically, where one can choose from a big selection of sonic characters, has great legatos, easy to use Auto-Divisi, lots of other options, articuations, sordinos, ..etc. etc. Wouldn't MSS be my Go-To Strings ? I think it might just become, and I have a lot of other Strings libraries that I like a lot.


----------



## bvaughn0402

As someone else mentioned ... I think I'm still recovering from Black Friday.

So you guys take your time! :D

I'd be happy to buy in Feb or March! Trust me, you have a buyer here. But don't feel you have to rush.


----------



## chapbot

You'll be forgiven if the next video is about legato  ❤


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> I just wanted to check the pulse of the community here regarding MSS, and the expectations we have about it.
> 
> I'm just thinking if it has all these features, and sounds wonderful, and can be quite flexible sonically, where one can choose from a big selection of sonic characters, has great legatos, easy to use Auto-Divisi, lots of other options, articuations, sordinos, ..etc. etc. Wouldn't MSS be my Go-To Strings ? I think it might just become, and I have a lot of other Strings libraries that I like a lot.


I don't care about features, all I'm interested in is... legato lol! Specifically I want a hyper-realistic sound. I thought the shorts sounded very realistic so I'm hoping the longs do also. I'm a little worried that it's too roomy, we'll see.


----------



## muziksculp

chapbot said:


> I'm a little worried that it's too roomy, we'll see.


I'm not sure I understand what 'Too Roomy' means.

Do you mean there is too much room early-reflections baked into the samples ? or you don't like the Room characteristics ? or ... ? Also very dry strings, with no room reflections can sound artificial. even after adding reverb. 

I'm guessing they recorded the string players in a medium sized stage/hall. and you have multiple mic options to blend the string sounds to your taste.


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> I'm not sure I understand what 'Too Roomy' means.
> 
> Do you mean there is too much room early-reflections baked into the samples ? or you don't like the Room characteristics ? or ... ? Also very dry strings, with no room reflections can sound artificial. even after adding reverb.
> 
> I'm guessing they recorded the string players in a medium sized stage/hall. and you have multiple mic options to blend the string sounds to your taste.


I love LASS because they are so dry but I am hearing room tail in the close mic MSS shorts. On second listen it isn't as bad as I thought. So far Nashville Scoring Strings is a good compromise for me of dryness and room.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Waiting for the last working day of January to tell the world they won't achieve their January estimated release date is really annoying.
Now they need only two weeks to complete all of the videos... really? With so many (as they said) features to show I expect at least four/five new videos, but if it takes them one week (!) to complete one video (as they did so far actually with the exception of the A.R.T. one) I strongly suspect they will delay it again and wait till February the 15th to announce it to the world.

Now I really think all of the frustration could have been quite avoided if their first video was an intro video showing briefly all of the available features (like the Modern Scoring Brass introduction video) in order to give an idea of how effectively this library sounds, especially regarding the legatos, one of the (if not THE) most important decision factor to evaluate a realistic sounding strings library (at least to me).
Hope they will finally respect this new estimated date.


----------



## Wlad

yellow_lupine said:


> Waiting for the last working day of January to tell the world they won't achieve their January estimated release date is really annoying.
> Now they need only two weeks to complete all of the videos... really? With so many (as they said) features to show I expect at least four/five new videos, but if it takes them one week (!) to complete one video (as they did so far actually with the exception of the A.R.T. one) I strongly suspect they will delay it again and wait till February the 15th to announce it to the world.
> 
> Now I really think all of the frustration could have been quite avoided if their first video was an intro video showing briefly all of the available features (like the Modern Scoring Brass introduction video) in order to give an idea of how effectively this library sounds, especially regarding the legatos, one of the (if not THE) most important decision factor to evaluate a realistic sounding strings library (at least to me).
> Hope they will finally respect this new estimated date.


If you visit the Hollywood Orchestra Opus page, you will all of a sudden realize that it can be a lot worse than a developer delaying a library for two weeks.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I strongly dislike the honesty, just be silent and let this go one for more pages


----------



## FKVStudio

yellow_lupine said:


> Waiting for the last working day of January to tell the world they won't achieve their January estimated release date is really annoying.
> Now they need only two weeks to complete all of the videos... really? With so many (as they said) features to show I expect at least four/five new videos, but if it takes them one week (!) to complete one video (as they did so far actually with the exception of the A.R.T. one) I strongly suspect they will delay it again and wait till February the 15th to announce it to the world.
> 
> Now I really think all of the frustration could have been quite avoided if their first video was an intro video showing briefly all of the available features (like the Modern Scoring Brass introduction video) in order to give an idea of how effectively this library sounds, especially regarding the legatos, one of the (if not THE) most important decision factor to evaluate a realistic sounding strings library (at least to me).
> Hope they will finally respect this new estimated date.


I consider that they have tried to get it out in time until the last breath. They could not, they apologize for the delay both on the website and here and explain the reasons.

For my part, no objection and I thank you for the honesty and hard work you are doing. What does it matter to wait 2 more weeks if, in return, they are going to offer us a better product, with more demonstrations of it before evaluating your purchase. I prefer that, to be published in a hurry and with errors.

Tranquility.


----------



## constaneum

It shall be released once hit 100 pages.


----------



## Vik

As mentioned: When someone postpones a release because there's more work that needs to be done, I applaud it. But this may be a different situation: maybe that don't want to pull the trigger until they have their own demos and videos aren't ready yet – and I don't blame them for that either, because if the only available demos are from people who don't really know the library yet, they'll sound a lot less impressive than what Audiobro can deliver. And there _are_ user demos being posted on YouTube and elsewhere when long V1 sections are shown without any vibrato at all or no dynamic movements, where the violas are demonstrated only in the violin register, and so on.


----------



## Zedcars

Vik said:


> As mentioned: When someone postpones a release because there's more work that needs to be done, I applaud it. But this may be a different situation: maybe that don't want to pull the trigger until they have their own demos and videos aren't ready yet – and I don't blame them for that either, because if the only available demos are from people who don't really know the library yet, they'll sound a lot less impressive than what Audiobro can deliver. And there _are_ demos being posted on YouTube and elsewhere when long V1 sections are shown without any vibrato at all or no dynamic movements, where the violas are demonstrated only in the violin register, and so on.


Why would anyone post a demo/video with those basics missing? I don’t see the point.


----------



## Vik

Zedcars said:


> Why would anyone post a demo/video with those basics missing? I don’t see the point.


I changed the post to ake myself more clear, since I was thinking of random user demos and walkthroughs – or other demos/walkthroughs not made by those who created the library.


----------



## Zedcars

Vik said:


> I changed the post to ake myself more clear, since I was thinking of random user demos and walkthroughs – or other demos/walkthroughs not made by those who created the library.


OK. That is how I understood you.


----------



## Casiquire

"Auto parcheesi" honestly I'm DONE with you 😆


----------



## novaburst

Vik said:


> As mentioned: When someone postpones a release because there's more work that needs to be done, I applaud it.


Well contractions are a sign of end of pregnancy of a mother who is about to give birth to a new child and contribute to labor, or labor pains,

All in all when these things happen it can make you believe the mother is about to give birth but in many cases they can give you false alarms or at least make you think you were ready to have a new born baby at that time.

I am sure when we create a new project or development it can also be seen as bringing some thing new into the world of course it can also be seen as our new creation (baby) or simply something new 
During this time of creation (pregnancy's) there will be at least a few moments when you feel like you are ready to to show your new creation (new child) to the world but actually you you are just having contractions that are sending you false signals or making those around you believe your ready to give birth.

for one you are not going to say to the mother is hurry up, come its about time you had that baby come on already ..... i mean you may course other complications.

i think its best to just give developers the space they need for a healthy new born baby and just let the proper course of time take place.


----------



## Evans

Wat.


----------



## mcalis

Evans said:


> Wat.


My thoughts exactly lol. And I thought people had lost their marbles in the CSW thread xD


----------



## Raphioli

novaburst said:


> Well contractions are a sign of end of pregnancy of a mother who is about to give birth to a new child and contribute to labor, or labor pains,
> 
> All in all when these things happen it can make you believe the mother is about to give birth but in many cases they can give you false alarms or at least make you think you were ready to have a new born baby at that time.
> 
> I am sure when we create a new project or development it can also be seen as bringing some thing new into the world of course it can also be seen as our new creation (baby) or simply something new
> During this time of creation (pregnancy's) there will be at least a few moments when you feel like you are ready to to show your new creation (new child) to the world but actually you you are just having contractions that are sending you false signals or making those around you believe your ready to give birth.
> 
> for one you are not going to say to the mother is hurry up, come its about time you had that baby come on already ..... i mean you may course other complications.
> 
> i think its best to just give developers the space they need for a healthy new born baby and just let the proper course of time take place.


----------



## Raphioli

mcalis said:


> My thoughts exactly lol. And I thought people had lost their marbles in the CSW thread xD


The delay is definitely affecting people in many ways more than I thought.
The 2 week wait sure is going to be very entertaining lol


----------



## Zedcars

novaburst said:


> Well contractions are a sign of end of pregnancy of a mother who is about to give birth to a new child and contribute to labor, or labor pains,
> 
> All in all when these things happen it can make you believe the mother is about to give birth but in many cases they can give you false alarms or at least make you think you were ready to have a new born baby at that time.
> 
> I am sure when we create a new project or development it can also be seen as bringing some thing new into the world of course it can also be seen as our new creation (baby) or simply something new
> During this time of creation (pregnancy's) there will be at least a few moments when you feel like you are ready to to show your new creation (new child) to the world but actually you you are just having contractions that are sending you false signals or making those around you believe your ready to give birth.
> 
> for one you are not going to say to the mother is hurry up, come its about time you had that baby come on already ..... i mean you may course other complications.
> 
> i think its best to just give developers the space they need for a healthy new born baby and just let the proper course of time take place.


Bit of a pregnant pause after that one.


----------



## Casiquire

Dang you're all harsh 😆 i don't think it's that crazy a comparison. It's not an uncommon analogy to compare creativity to childbirth


----------



## Zedcars

I create something every morning after my breakfast. It grows inside me and then I let it go off into the world to live a full and meaningful life. Sometimes I look down at my creation and salut it before it starts its adventure into the unknown...


----------



## ansthenia

I made a sandwich this morning, call it Ben ❤️ I started having contractions before putting the cheese on, scared me shitless.


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> Dang you're all harsh 😆 i don't think it's that crazy a comparison. It's not an uncommon analogy to compare creativity to childbirth


I'm not sure if someone who hasn't gone through childbirth could really say for certain. I've seen it firsthand, however, and it seemed pretty different from kicking off a new project from my Cubase template.


----------



## Casiquire

Evans said:


> I'm not sure if someone who hasn't gone through childbirth could really say for certain. I've seen it firsthand, however, and it seemed pretty different from kicking off a new project from my Cubase template.



Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I don't think they were referring to starting a new Cubase project. I think they're referring to creating MSS which is years of hard work in the making


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but I don't think they were referring to starting a new Cubase project. I think they're referring to creating MSS which is years of hard work in the making


I'm well aware of that. That said, I'm going to bail on this thread until there are more videos.


----------



## clisma

Evans said:


> I'm well aware of that. That said, I'm going to bail on this thread until there are more videos.


Of childbirth?


----------



## amorphosynthesis

novaburst said:


> for one you are not going to say to the mother is hurry up, come its about time you had that baby come on already ..... i mean you may course other complications.
> 
> i think its best to just give developers the space they need for a healthy new born baby and just let the proper course of time take place.


sometimes the labour has to be induced


----------



## Kevinside

The delay is affecting me...
For me, i have to decide between the SDimension Strings Bundle or MSS... Now MSS is delayed and the vsl deal ends tomorrow... So no MSS for me this time, cause of the delay and the missing Legato video...
Its ok...but i have no unlimited money resources... I must plan...So MSS will join my libraries end of the year...but not this time


----------



## Wlad

Kevinside said:


> The delay is affecting me...
> For me, i have to decide between the SDimension Strings Bundle or MSS... Now MSS is delayed and the vsl deal ends tomorrow... So no MSS for me this time, cause of the delay and the missing Legato video...
> Its ok...but i have no unlimited money resources... I must plan...So MSS will join my libraries end of the year...but not this time


Go for it man. SDS is unmached for the level of detail if you get the bundle. It can be used as divisi or chamber strings. Enough time for MMS to iron things out. Maybe patch 1.1 will be introduced at the end of the year.


----------



## maestro2be

Kevinside said:


> The delay is affecting me...
> For me, i have to decide between the SDimension Strings Bundle or MSS... Now MSS is delayed and the vsl deal ends tomorrow... So no MSS for me this time, cause of the delay and the missing Legato video...
> Its ok...but i have no unlimited money resources... I must plan...So MSS will join my libraries end of the year...but not this time


Dimension strings is definitely no slouch. You would be able to use their small size to layer with MSS and bring a closer more in your face sound and quite possibly make the overall size sound a little smaller by adding just 2-4 players on top of MSS would be my guess. I have Dimension and very much plan to layer it with MSS.

I don’t think you can go wrong with that purchase unless you just don’t like the sound of them.


----------



## Toecutter

Dimension Strings current pricing is hard to ignore, if I didn't have it already I wouldn't think twice! It's not like MSS won't be heavily discounted by the end of the year like every other Audiobro library. Think smart


----------



## Batrawi

haha.. so I got a couple of prophecies correct.


Batrawi said:


> or release another release date.


 same day they announced another release date



Batrawi said:


> what about this kind of optimism


 they also delayed it by CSW's famous 2 weeks


----------



## Batrawi

Toecutter said:


> Dimension Strings current pricing is hard to ignore, if I didn't have it already I wouldn't think twice! It's not like MSS won't be heavily discounted by the end of the year like every other Audiobro library. Think smart


yeah don't think twice everyone. If interested, I'm selling my license in the offers sections


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> yeah don't think twice everyone. If interested, I'm selling my license in the offers sections


So, you are very confident that MSS will easily replace/do the job of VSL Dim-Strings ?


----------



## Wlad

muziksculp said:


> So, you are very confident that MSS will easily replace/do the job of VSL Dim-Strings ?


It can't. Two different libraries used for a completely different purpose.


----------



## muziksculp

Wlad said:


> It can't. Two different libraries used for a completely different purpose.


Yes, that's what I think as well. That's why I was asking why he was selling it ? imho. VSL Dim-Strings is an amazing strings library, super flexible, and useful to have.


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> Yes, that's what I think as well. That's why I was asking why he was selling it ? imho. VSL Dim-Strings is an amazing strings library, super flexible, and useful to have.


As Wlad said, the're 2 completely different libraries. Besides, I stopped using DS long time ago already. Actually, I did not get along with it since the day I got it because (weirdly) of the very same reasons why I was attracted to buy it in the first place! As you mentioned, it's super flexible, but that kind of extreme flexibility was too much for me & time consuming that I lost interest to use it anymore...


----------



## krismiller1982

What do you guys think? Wait for MSS or buy Synchron VSL dimension strings full while on sale along w/VSL Synchron Strings PRO full? I’m loving the sound of the demos is MSS, but I want to take advantage of the VSL sale.


----------



## Noeticus

krismiller1982 said:


> What do you guys think? Wait for MSS or buy Synchron VSL dimension strings full while on sale along w/VSL Synchron Strings PRO full? I’m loving the sound of the demos is MSS, but I want to take advantage of the VSL sale.


Yes, buy the VSL libraries now (on sale), and the MSS a bit later.

I have these same VSL libraries and they are great!


----------



## krismiller1982

Noeticus said:


> Yes, buy the VSL libraries now (on sale), and the MSS a bit later.
> 
> I have these same VSL libraries and they are great!


Do the Dimension strings work well as divisi for Synchron Strings Pro?

I’ve been putting off jumping into the VSL world for over a decade. I’m the type of person who’s all in or nothing. I’ve never been able to afford the complete VSL orchestra in a single purchase, but I think it’s time I start acquiring sections one at a time... Really want to get MSS though, the aleatoric demo really impressed me.


----------



## Evans

krismiller1982 said:


> Really want to get MSS though, the aleatoric demo really impressed me.


Depending on your needs... if you're considering Dimension Strings and Synchron Strings Pro, have you looked at VSL's BBO Regulus release (FX Strings)? Regulus is a subset of the Synchron FX Strings 1 release.

That would quite the powerful trio, if you actually have the need for all of them.


----------



## muziksculp

krismiller1982 said:


> Do the Dimension strings work well as divisi for Synchron Strings Pro?
> 
> I’ve been putting off jumping into the VSL world for over a decade. I’m the type of person who’s all in or nothing. I’ve never been able to afford the complete VSL orchestra in a single purchase, but I think it’s time I start acquiring sections one at a time... Really want to get MSS though, the aleatoric demo really impressed me.


Sure, Dim-Strings or the Synchronized Dim-Strings can add a lot of definition when adding them to Synchron Strings Pro to give you more definition, or more upfront sound to Synchron Strings Pro. Dim-Strings is a very useful library to have, and with the discount, it's a fantastic deal. 

The Syncrhornized Dim-Strings bundle, give you Dim-Strings I, II Sordinos, III Sul-Tasto, plus you get the Poniticello articulations as a free bonus. imho. a fantastic strings library package. You can't go wrong with this bundle. 

I would recommend you get the Synchronized Dim-Strings over the older VI version of Dim-Strings, the Synchronized versions are easier to use, and are better organized. Plus they are treated with impulses to fit the Synchron Stage out of the box, but you can turn them off if you want them super dry.


----------



## Noeticus

The Synchron-ized Dimension-Strings bundle is the way to go!!!

Having awesome control of separate players is a friggin' dream!

AND, but MSS as well, of course.


----------



## [email protected]

Piano Pete said:


> With the talk about MSB, I'm surprised I have not heard/seen more of it. Is there are reason for this?


Me too! I knew nothing about _Modern Scoring Brass_ until last year and it is nowhere featured or cherished which is quite a shame! I just got it during the christmas days and used it for the Score Relief Competition after trying to get it right with _Century Brass_, _Cinematic Studio Brass_ and _Junkie XL Brass_. Setting everything up cost some time but the library is very flexible and I love its tone.
You can hear Trumpet, Horn and Tuba solo as well as ensembles and muted trumpets and stopped horns. I suck at mixing and I am not happy with the sound of the "dog-to-the-rescue"-trumpet fanfare but that's not the library's fault. The low brass ensemble at 1:13 and 1:41 is the low _Talos-_Ensemble, the rest of the brass is exclusively _Modern Scoring Brass_.

I wish that _Modern Scoring String_ had appeared earlier so that I could have used it as well here. The two choir bits are Genesis by the way 



I really love how Audiobro is trying to deliver all-in-one-package libraries which are very flexible and offer so many different possibillities. 

It's interesting that 2020/2021 seems to be a "string season" with _Synchron Strings Pro_, _Berlin Symphonic Strings_ and _Modern Scoring Strings_. I am very excited to find out how _Modern Scoring Brass_ will perform in this race!


----------



## Evans

Noeticus said:


> Having awesome control of separate players is a friggin' dream


Not only that, but being able to force a string is very powerful.


----------



## Casiquire

[email protected] said:


> Me too! I knew nothing about _Modern Scoring Brass_ until last year and it is nowhere featured or cherished which is quite a shame! I just got it during the christmas days and used it for the Score Relief Competition after trying to get it right with _Century Brass_, _Cinematic Studio Brass_ and _Junkie XL Brass_. Setting everything up cost some time but the library is very flexible and I love its tone.
> You can hear Trumpet, Horn and Tuba solo as well as ensembles and muted trumpets and stopped horns. I suck at mixing and I am not happy with the sound of the "dog-to-the-rescue"-trumpet fanfare but that's not the library's fault. The low brass ensemble at 1:13 and 1:41 is the low _Talos-_Ensemble, the rest of the brass is exclusively _Modern Scoring Brass_.
> 
> I wish that _Modern Scoring String_ had appeared earlier so that I could have used it as well here. The two choir bits are Genesis by the way
> 
> 
> 
> I really love how Audiobro is trying to deliver all-in-one-package libraries which are very flexible and offer so many different possibillities.
> 
> It's interesting that 2020/2021 seems to be a "string season" with _Synchron Strings Pro_, _Berlin Symphonic Strings_ and _Modern Scoring Strings_. I am very excited to find out how _Modern Scoring Brass_ will perform in this race!



I think the tone, effects, reverb etc are perfectly fine. As far as mixing, i think what could be improved would be levels. A lot of instrument sections sound like they're the same volume where i think they should be a little louder or quieter than one another. But the idea was to show MSB and it does sound good here and in most examples of it that i have seen and heard.



Evans said:


> Not only that, but being able to force a string is very powerful.


I agree and it's one of very few things I think MSS is missing. It's so close to being EVERYTHING. I wish it included string positions


----------



## Evans

[email protected] said:


> Me too! I knew nothing about _Modern Scoring Brass_ until last year and it is nowhere featured or cherished which is quite a shame! I just got it during the christmas days and used it for the Score Relief Competition after trying to get it right with _Century Brass_, _Cinematic Studio Brass_ and _Junkie XL Brass_. Setting everything up cost some time but the library is very flexible and I love its tone.
> You can hear Trumpet, Horn and Tuba solo as well as ensembles and muted trumpets and stopped horns. I suck at mixing and I am not happy with the sound of the "dog-to-the-rescue"-trumpet fanfare but that's not the library's fault. The low brass ensemble at 1:13 and 1:41 is the low _Talos-_Ensemble, the rest of the brass is exclusively _Modern Scoring Brass_.
> 
> I wish that _Modern Scoring String_ had appeared earlier so that I could have used it as well here. The two choir bits are Genesis by the way
> 
> 
> 
> I really love how Audiobro is trying to deliver all-in-one-package libraries which are very flexible and offer so many different possibillities.
> 
> It's interesting that 2020/2021 seems to be a "string season" with _Synchron Strings Pro_, _Berlin Symphonic Strings_ and _Modern Scoring Strings_. I am very excited to find out how _Modern Scoring Brass_ will perform in this race!



Thanks for sharing! I'm happy to see MSB users poking their heads in at VI-C. I just picked it up, though all of my desk time has been tied up with two projects that don't use any brass, and all of my free time has been spent on quality time with the family (thank goodness VI-C is mobile browser friendly).

So far, my TLDR-level takeaways of the library are

I'm struggling with getting a crisp sound out of the horns and trombones (they're a bit _anemic, _but I'm getting close to the sound I want on the horns);
I need to spend a lot of time finding the "best" reverb for it;
It has a lot of powerful controls (dynamics + low sizzle + legato speed + transition volume + detune, golly... and that's not all of it); and
I really like the trumpets!


----------



## [email protected]

Casiquire said:


> I think the tone, effects, reverb etc are perfectly fine. As far as mixing, i think what could be improved would be levels. A lot of instrument sections sound like they're the same volume where i think they should be a little louder or quieter than one another. But the idea was to show MSB and it does sound good here and in most examples of it that i have seen and heard.
> 
> 
> I agree and it's one of very few things I think MSS is missing. It's so close to being EVERYTHING. I wish it included string positions


Thank you very much for your feedback! Mixing-wise I am happy with the latter half but I think that the action stuff could be improved. I really wanted to have a lot going on there to accentuate the disruption, panic and danger of this sequence - and I wanted that these things were still audible through the sound effects. 

What I really like about _Modern Scoring Brass_ is that all the articulations fit perfectly well together and that there is enough of variations on different eypes of articulations that you can always pick the right one and don't have to write _for_ the library. I hate it when accented lines are not possible because staccatos are too long and then it sounds "bounzy" or the marcatos are not strong enough etc.

I have really high hopes for _Modern Scoring Strings_ to offer all these possibillities. And regarding the "roomy" tone I wouldn't be too concerned since _Modern Scoring Brass_ also comes with different sends which can be easily turned off. So if you chose the close mic it still sounds very "roomy" because of the preset-sends but when you have deactivated them you just get the plain natural close sound.

So I can understand @Evans' struggles for the best reverb, I also had trouble to place the trumpets in the orchestra, but I am very happy that I have finally given in. _Century Brass_ also offers a lot of articulations and instruments but is very inconsistent and not as "precise" as _Modern Scoring Brass_ or how the articulations are treated in the _Vienna Symphonic Library _are treated. And the _Junkie XL_ Trumpets just sound horrible - even with the natural mixes and the highest dynamic layer deactivated.

Sorry for derailing this thread into a _Modern Scoring Brass_ thread but maybe Audiobro appreciates some advertisement of their brass library while waiting for their new product


----------



## novaburst

amorphosynthesis said:


> sometimes the labour has to be induced


yes or even a caesarean section but all of that are signs of premature birth normally when a child is born prematurely you will get some signs of underdevelopment and the child needs to stay in hospital until they are well developed then they can be released 

I am sure you all know what happens when a piece of software or library is released when it is not developed correctly or there are issues with development it can course a lot of frustration for the user and a wave of complaints


----------



## FKVStudio

novaburst said:


> I am sure you all know what happens when a piece of software or library is released when it is not developed correctly or there are issues with development it can course a lot of frustration for the user and a wave of complaints


Cyberpunk!! xD


----------



## novaburst

FKVStudio said:


> Cyberpunk!! xD


That launch was hilarious. they are doing well with update and patches but they have very much to do that was the worst management i have seen, all about the money now they have a ton of court cases against them, with that Sony pulling it from their game stores


----------



## turnerofwheels

Evans said:


> Not only that, but being able to force a string is very powerful.


Always how I feel with string libraries. Plus it's a shame to only have one open string available for each instrument


----------



## prodigalson

novaburst said:


> That launch was hilarious. they are doing well with update and patches but they have very much to do that was the worst management i have seen, all about the money now they have a ton of court cases against them, with that Sony pulling it from their game stores


I don't think it was as hilarious for the developers and I suspect the literal death threats from gamers and extreme workloads on the development team may have had something to do with the push to release when they did. 

The whole thing was insane. Such a depressing and sadly unsurprising episode in today's world. They set out to develop a very ambitious and extremely multi-layered video game that was held up due to a global pandemic and they literally felt their lives were in danger. Now they're dealing with lawsuits and all for a VIDEO GAME.

2020, man.


----------



## prodigalson

How long will it be before sample library developers start getting death threats because of development delays?


----------



## Casiquire

prodigalson said:


> How long will it be before sample library developers start getting death threats because of development delays?


Guess we need to normalize some patience in these threads then, don't we 😊


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

prodigalson said:


> How long will it be before sample library developers start getting death threats because of development delays?


Judging by the EW Hollywood Opus thread and some responses there, not long. Truly an embarrassing showing for the Vi-C (and composer) community.


----------



## constaneum

Looking at the bright side, MSS gonna be a true romantic post Valentine gift.


----------



## novaburst

prodigalson said:


> I don't think it was as hilarious for the developers and I suspect the literal death threats from gamers and extreme workloads on the development team may have had something to do with the push to release when they did.
> 
> The whole thing was insane. Such a depressing and sadly unsurprising episode in today's world. They set out to develop a very ambitious and extremely multi-layered video game that was held up due to a global pandemic and they literally felt their lives were in danger. Now they're dealing with lawsuits and all for a VIDEO GAME.
> 
> 2020, man.


Can't really blame the developers one bit for the state of the game, this was unreasonable management, the developers did not want to release the game but managers and leaders were very out of touch with what was needed.

And yes in the game world there is a lot of bullying, unpaid work and a lot of disrespect from management towards developers in general it is two different worlds between management and development almost like gangster attitude. 

And this is happening more and more especially when new management takes over, all they are thinking is cash profit but in a kind of gangster style and even with slave mentality 

I guess the loanch of Cyberpunk was a big joke becuase of that, 

In any case there have been signs of recovery and and stocks on the rise again
Fixes and patches rolling out for all platforms 

But I don't think it can repair the lives of the people involved. 

My feelings are there is a very dark and brutish attitude that is creeping in the gaming industry where profit makers are taking advantage of this world no doubt we can see this attitude through the very depressing actions of scalpers who are only in it for gain and do not care who suffers because of thier actions. 

I wonder is this world wide pandemic giving breed to a new darker attitude in people who only think they are above every one alse and prey on the weak and those who can't fight back.


----------



## Heinigoldstein

novaburst said:


> Can't really blame the developers one bit for the state of the game, this was unreasonable management, the developers did not want to release the game but managers and leaders were very out of touch with what was needed.
> 
> And yes in the game world there is a lot of bullying, unpaid work and a lot of disrespect from management towards developers in general it is two different worlds between management and development almost like gangster attitude.
> 
> And this is happening more and more especially when new management takes over, all they are thinking is cash profit but in a kind of gangster style and even with slave mentality
> 
> I guess the loanch of Cyberpunk was a big joke becuase of that,
> 
> In any case there have been signs of recovery and and stocks on the rise again
> Fixes and patches rolling out for all platforms
> 
> But I don't think it can repair the lives of the people involved.
> 
> My feelings are there is a very dark and brutish attitude that is creeping in the gaming industry where profit makers are taking advantage of this world no doubt we can see this attitude through the very depressing actions of scalpers who are only in it for gain and do not care who suffers because of thier actions.
> 
> I wonder is this world wide pandemic giving breed to a new darker attitude in people who only think they are above every one alse and prey on the weak and those who can't fight back.


As someone who worked for the game industry many years I couldn‘t agree more. Small startups put a lot of work and energy in a new product, but as soon as the company has success, the management gets blown up, becomes bigger and bigger working on business plans to increase their market value, while the actual creative work is more and more done by badly paid students and trainees. 
We should give small companies like Audio Bro all the time they need to make a great product instead of making fast money.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Heinigoldstein said:


> As someone who worked for the game industry many years I couldn‘t agree more. Small startups put a lot of work and energy in a new product, but as soon as the company has success, the management gets blown up, becomes bigger and bigger working on business plans to increase their market value, while the actual creative work is more and more done by badly paid students and trainees.
> We should give small companies like Audio Bro all the time they need to make a great product instead of making fast money.


Even just having worked in IT for many years, it doesn't matter what your plans are--the more complexity you are dealing with, the more unpredictable the obstacles that can and will come up. Estimates are just that-estimates-and delays are a fact of life when developers are doing their jobs properly.

Taking out delays on developers is one of the Eternal Sins in my books.


----------



## Lazer42

SHANE TURNER said:


> Even just having worked in IT for many years, it doesn't matter what your plans are--the more complexity you are dealing with, the more unpredictable the obstacles that can and will come up. Estimates are just that-estimates-and delays are a fact of life when developers are doing their jobs properly.
> 
> Taking out delays on developers is one of the Eternal Sins in my books.


I think both here and with delays in the video game world, people tend to be very understanding about them. What gets developers into trouble with the community/userbase is the way they communicate about delays. I don't have a ton of experience with how it is regarding VIs as I have generally just used ones which are well established as opposed to waiting for the newest release, but in the game world I have seen it happen pretty frequently that (generally) one of two things happen with delayed productions. Either the developers are fairly straightforward about it, in which case people don't really give them too hard a time (unless it's something that's been delayed over and over for a long period) or the developers start being secretive or even just go silent. 

It's the latter that gets people upset, especially if they've spent money on a pre-order or something. Yes, delays happen and when people get upset over the pure fact of a delay that's usually unreasonable. I've always found that in the vast majority of cases, it's rather that people get upset about the way the developers address (or don't address) the delay.


----------



## muziksculp

New Video !

Runs & Scales : https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-strings/


----------



## Eptesicus

muziksculp said:


> New Video !
> 
> Runs & Scales : https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-strings/



The content included in this thing is mind boggling!


----------



## Raphioli

Looks like they're really saving those legato videos for last.
My expectations keeps on rising the more the wait lol

Did you see that in the Runs and scales video around 1:24, he switched to the legato patch,
but switches to the octave runs patch at 1:33? Thats what I call a good tease.
I can imagine him saying "you wanna hear those legatos don't you?" 
But with that said, I'm loving the sound/timbre of those strings/runs!
Back to watching the rest of the video. So far so good.


----------



## artinro

Absolutely stellar content and programming here and (I think) sound. I'm not a huge fan of their built in IRs, but I don't think it will be much of an issue to sculpt the sound and space to one's needs.


----------



## Eptesicus

Are scales synced to tempo too? I could not see a "sync" button on the UI for those (like there was for octave runs)


----------



## Dopplereffect

This library is insane! No wonder these guys needed some time to finish it! o_0


----------



## Raphioli

Eptesicus said:


> Are scales synced to tempo too? I could not see a "sync" button on the UI for those (like there was for octave runs)


Theres an "Auto" and "Sync" button on the right side of the UI when you have runs selected.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Eptesicus said:


> Are scales synced to tempo too? I could not see a "sync" button on the UI for those (like there was for octave runs)


@3.40: "Our engine automatically syncs to tempo".


----------



## Evans

Ah, crap. I think 10:23 sold me. I needed that for a project a few years ago, but didn't have a library on hand for it. Budget isn't as tight, now.


----------



## Eptesicus

Raphioli said:


> Theres an "Auto" and "Sync" button on the right side of the UI when you have runs selected.



That is for runs. I am talking about the scales.

I can see an "auto" button above "speed mode" on that UI so maybe that is it.


----------



## Eptesicus

Dopplereffect said:


> @3.40: "Our engine automatically syncs to tempo".



Ah yes. Thanks.


----------



## Noeticus

DETUNE Video is up.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Love MSS.


----------



## Raphioli

To me, the interesting part of the video was where he showed off the ensemble page 10:53, stacking one section at a time. The solo runs sound so intimate and lively. I really don't have that type of sound in the libraries I own.
And then shows runs in divisi at 11:44.

I really REALLY hope the legatos and crossfade between various dynamics are good, especially since everything else looks very promising.
Its something that would make or break it, at least for me.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Noeticus said:


> DETUNE Video is up.
> 
> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
> 
> Love MSS.


As if aleatoric wasn't enough already...


----------



## Raphioli

Eptesicus said:


> That is for runs. I am talking about the scales.
> 
> I can see an "auto" button above "speed mode" on that UI so maybe that is it.


oh sorry, I think misunderstood you then.


----------



## Noeticus

The MSS videos are like an acid trip without taking any acid.


----------



## muziksculp

Amazing features.

I'm also guessing that one can use the detune tool to have access to custom microtunings i.e. playing non-western scales. By just setting the custom microtuning table, and not animating/moving the Detune knob.


----------



## Woodie1972

Just jumping in, but wow, this sounds promising!


----------



## Dopplereffect

muziksculp said:


> Amazing features.
> 
> I'm also guessing that one can use the detune tool to have access to custom microtunings i.e. playing non-western scales. By just setting the custom microtuning table, and not animating/moving the Detune knob.


Indeed! Just turn off the "Pitch Motion-button" (or rather: don't turn it on.)


----------



## Kevperry777

That runs video....oh my. Divisi runs. Have mercy. This is just brilliantly thought out. Where do I send the check?


----------



## lettucehat

Fantastic feature, would really love to hear the exact same video with dry and close mics (as heard in other videos).


----------



## Laddy

Noeticus said:


> DETUNE Video is up.
> 
> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
> 
> Love MSS.


That intro sounds amazing!


----------



## jamwerks

Incredibly well done. Love the runs and ostinati, this should be a real "do-all" string solution.

Listening back to the mics on the "Shorts and Mics" video, cool that the "mix" mic is only Stage (Tree?) & Surround. Adding Close to the Mix gives great flexibility. But I have to say that I don't care much for the Surround mics sound. Nothing beautiful about the room sound imo. So Stage plus Close and our own reverbs should sound a bit better than most of what we are hearing throughout the videos imo.

Can't wait to hear the legati !!


----------



## muziksculp

Now available on YouTube :


----------



## Theseus07

Oh boy, that "Runs & scales" feature is jaw dropping...

As soon as I heard the first notes, I thought about "La Moldau" from Bedrich Smetana and how it was absolutely impossible to make a (somewhat) convincing pass at it with virtual instruments.



Andrew and Sebastian, bravo. Take all the time you need to make sure everything is up to the standards you set. They're pretty amazing.


----------



## borisb2

Scale + runs video is insane.. soo good and realistic.

If pizzicato ... ehm legato video shows a similar quality I think there is no reason for me to touch any other string library again for some time (except if I need solo or romantic)


----------



## muziksculp

borisb2 said:


> Scale + runs video is insane.. soo good and realistic.
> 
> If pizzicato ... ehm legato video shows a similar quality I think there is no reason for me to touch any other string library again for some time (except if I need solo or romantic)


Are you implying MSS can't be used for romantic sounding strings ?

Given they mention Vibrato control, I would guess they can deliver great sounding Romantic String Sounds.

*Quote from AudioBro's Site : *

"_It should also be mentioned that you have full control over how much *vibrato* you want on the arcos and this can, of course, be controlled in real-time via Continuous Controller automation (CC)_."


----------



## GingerMaestro

@dxmachina These runs are remarkable, amazing job. I have a quick question. Will some of these runs parameter be controllable via the Logic articulation sets as described on your website for other articulations ? There are just so many options, it would really help for constructing these runs at speed.

I can’t wait for the release...amazing !


----------



## Noeticus

Gosh, can we please have Molto Vibrato as well?

Bring it on!


----------



## borisb2

muziksculp said:


> Are you implying MSS can't be used for romantic sounding strings ?
> 
> Given they mention Vibrato control, I would guess they can deliver great sounding Romantic String Sounds.


hehe .. well, I wanted to leave some room for CSS/Vista etc. to still have some use .. if MSS can handle that well as well .. even better ..

Could free up the SSDs drastically here: BS, CSS, CS2, SStPro, CineStrings .. select all these folders and Shift+Delete. Imagine that  ..... ok, that was a joke


----------



## muziksculp

Actually, having a well implemented Vibrato Control in a high-end strings library like MSS is a big deal.

Vibrato is a very important aspect of how you want your strings to sound. The more control we have over Vibrato, the more realism, and expression they will have, more lively, and less sterile, and cold.


----------



## Eptesicus

Its hard to comprehend how much recording time this must have taken what with them sampling all those runs and scales in divisi with each section (on top of everything else).


----------



## muziksculp

The features MSS offers so far, dwarf some of the high-end Strings Libraries currently available.

MSS is imho. the Next Generation Strings library. Nothing I have gets close to offering all these features.


----------



## Dopplereffect

As it turns out, with that many features, they just forgot about recording legatos. That's why they had to delay


----------



## novaburst

i think its going to be a major work horse, i think the library will be difficult to ignore a lot of ear candy going on there dont know what magi they are using. but after hearing that i think the library can be sold with out legatos .........ok maybe thats going to far but i think you get the drift.



muziksculp said:


> MSS is the Next Generation Strings library. Nothing I have gets close to offering all these features.


its hard not to agree


----------



## muziksculp

The Variable Attack Control Sustains feature should be super useful as well. Looking forward to that video showing it in action, and explaining the details. 

Quote From their Site : "These are real variable attack samples – recorded on each note and at each dynamic. Once you try it, you’ll never want to go back."


----------



## Dopplereffect

muziksculp said:


> The Variable Attack Control Sustains feature should be super useful as well. Looking forward to that video showing it in action, and explaining the details.
> 
> Quote From their Site : "These are real variable attack samples – recorded on each note and at each dynamic. Once you try it, you’ll never want to go back."


And I am guessing you can easily layer the shorts under the sustains for added variability, if the recorded ones still aren't to your liking!


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> Once you try it, you’ll never want to go back.


this + 1

i think we can call it innovation


----------



## synergy543

Is it possible to do an octotonic run?

Or would you need to break it down into multiple 3 or 4-note phrases?


----------



## muziksculp

Plus let's not forget that MSS has so much to offer, it was broken up into two sample libraries. 

Looking forward to hear the expanded legatos as well as the standard legatos. 

*Modern Scoring Strings & Modern Scoring Strings Expanded Legato *is an add-on to MSS. 

*Quote* from their Site :

"_Modern Scoring Strings Expanded Legato is an add-on library with 60GB worth of *Sordino, Sul Tasto, Sul Pont, and… legato, portamento, and glissando articulations*. It will be available as a bundle with MSS Full, but will also be available as a separate product. While the main MSS Full library includes Sordino, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont sustains, it does not offer the legato transitions of those articulations. We felt it was better to split out the 60GB of additional legato articulations to a different add-on library to give users the option based on their needs._"


----------



## Jay Panikkar

I like everything I'm hearing so far. This looks like a meticulously crafted library for the absolute professional... which means it's definitely not for me. I've yet to properly utilise the stuff that I already have.


----------



## Robert_G

First post in this thread. I'm concerned that I've gotten my hopes up so much that this may be the holy grail of string libraries. Everything I've seen so far is near perfect. This may be a must buy library.
The amount of content is ridiculous. Everything is here. The sound is amazing. What's missing?

The other reason I'm getting my hopes up easy is because Audiobro made Genesis....and it IS the holy grail of children's choir libraries. Will Modern Scoring Strings achieve the same level?
I'm almost wondering if MSB got overlooked? I don't own it, but I'm starting to wonder....


----------



## Ryan Fultz

I become more and more impressed with each of these videos. So many things in one package, so much less time matching sample libraries to each other, much more ease to do articulations and techniques that in a DAW are usually much more time consuming and usually encourage me to just write something else.

This feels much closer to an actual string section than most of my libraries do and seems really encouraging of writing more to what you hear, and less to what the sample is going to perform best for you if you aren't going to have real strings recorded. I really hope this meets expectations and sets a new standard.


----------



## Noeticus

MSB is also excellent!!!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Amazing job so far. It is obvious that these guys aren't doing a string library for the first time. Everything seems meticulously planned 

Like probably everyone following this thread, I'm now waiting for the sustains & legato video (AND demos )


----------



## muziksculp

AudioBro's Experience, dedication, and drive to develop the next generation Strings Library after their first library (LASS) is very clear. I can see, and hear the difference. 

Was LASS released in 2009 ? or ... ?


----------



## dgburns

The Aleatoric stuff sounded a bit like the Lass stuff, to me. Sonically speaking. I can hear the same ‘ sound ‘. It’s hard to explain, but it has that Audiobro strings sound to it. 

Lass 3 or This ????


----------



## Evans

Noeticus said:


> MSB is also excellent!!!


Got any tips? Here, in the MSB thread, or DM?

I'm slowly making my way through the patches (picked it up last week). I loved the trumpets pretty much immediately. _Quite _a lot, in fact. The horns took some time, but they're really settling in after doing a lot of dialing in and tinkering with the right reverb and EQ. Flugelhorn seems quite usable. I'm fine with the piccolo trumpets.

But the trombones? The trombones and alto trombones are giving me one heck of a time. Let's just say that I'm going to withhold further comment because my current thoughts are pretty nasty.

I haven't gone through the rest, yet. Haven't looked at the mutes at all, hoping to this weekend. With that said, it's an _incredibly_ powerful engine. I'm just really struggling with the actual recordings of the trombones.


----------



## Sean J

StaffPad or no deal.

Great library. I've just moved on from the DAW world. I compose on my iPad. I write more, faster, better, and it sounds better than my Kontakt versions. Easily. I'm not complaining about what this product is. Great stuff. No complaints. I'd just like to see it on a different platform is all.


----------



## Noeticus

Evans said:


> Got any tips? Here, in the MSB thread, or DM?
> 
> I'm slowly making my way through the patches (picked it up last week). I loved the trumpets pretty much immediately. _Quite _a lot, in fact. The horns took some time, but they're really settling in after doing a lot of dialing in and tinkering with the right reverb and EQ. Flugelhorn seems quite usable. I'm fine with the piccolo trumpets.
> 
> But the trombones? The trombones and alto trombones are giving me one heck of a time. Let's just say that I'm going to withhold further comment because my current thoughts are pretty nasty.
> 
> I haven't gone through the rest, yet. Haven't looked at the mutes at all, hoping to this weekend. With that said, it's an _incredibly_ powerful engine. I'm just really struggling with the actual recordings of the trombones.


Sorry, no tips, as I am not qualified, as I am far too new to music. (Well, my two tips are to use the Detune Knob if you want some nice eerie sounds.) (And, use external EQ to shape it, if needed.)

But, I really like MSB particularly because I like the player so much.


----------



## sourcefor

Can’t wait to get MSS...


----------



## feck

It looks as though Audiobro just took a major leap forward in sampling and playback/feature sets with this library. I can't even imagine how much forethought, time and energy went into this product. Needless to say I'll be buying it on day 1.


----------



## Russell Anderson




----------



## Laddy

First thing first, but I hope Audiobro someday will make a woodwind library with these features (auto-divisi, poly-legato, scales/runs, ostinatos, detune etc).


----------



## jamwerks

He doesn't mention it in the video, but it looks like by combining various 3 & 4 note run cells, that even whole-tone & diminished runs will be possible.


----------



## soulofsound

Evans said:


> Got any tips? Here, in the MSB thread, or DM?
> 
> I'm slowly making my way through the patches (picked it up last week). I loved the trumpets pretty much immediately. _Quite _a lot, in fact. The horns took some time, but they're really settling in after doing a lot of dialing in and tinkering with the right reverb and EQ. Flugelhorn seems quite usable. I'm fine with the piccolo trumpets.
> 
> But the trombones? The trombones and alto trombones are giving me one heck of a time. Let's just say that I'm going to withhold further comment because my current thoughts are pretty nasty.
> 
> I haven't gone through the rest, yet. Haven't looked at the mutes at all, hoping to this weekend. With that said, it's an _incredibly_ powerful engine. I'm just really struggling with the actual recordings of the trombones.


To improve the sound, i turn off "Mix" and use "Decca" (and sometimes "Close" mics) instead. Every brass track also gets a tape plugin on it or something to make it a little thicker. In case of the trombones there's also a exciter (Softube's Harmonic Processor but you can use any saturation really) i use to get a lot more presence and body. Alternatively you can use the bass trombones which have more body and sound better to my ears.
Also check if the legato isn't locked in smooth, where it needs accent or marcato. And check the "sizzle" knob and whether it is dialed down too much for edge, or dialed up too much for intimate.
Lastly, turn off the eq (if there is any) in the mixer and any reverbs and use a nice reverb. And if the divisi sound a little out of tune, set "Humanization" to "small" instead of "medium" or "large".

Many libraries these days go for a huge contemporary Hollywood sound. This library sounds more natural perhaps. I don't know. I find it useful in a lot of situations.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Evans said:


> Got any tips? Here, in the MSB thread, or DM?
> 
> I'm slowly making my way through the patches (picked it up last week). I loved the trumpets pretty much immediately. _Quite _a lot, in fact. The horns took some time, but they're really settling in after doing a lot of dialing in and tinkering with the right reverb and EQ. Flugelhorn seems quite usable. I'm fine with the piccolo trumpets.
> 
> But the trombones? The trombones and alto trombones are giving me one heck of a time. Let's just say that I'm going to withhold further comment because my current thoughts are pretty nasty.
> 
> I haven't gone through the rest, yet. Haven't looked at the mutes at all, hoping to this weekend. With that said, it's an _incredibly_ powerful engine. I'm just really struggling with the actual recordings of the trombones.


I cannot add much to what soulofsound said except perhaps for this:

1) To my ears the trombones benefit the most from using the tighten-nob for the shorts. It really helps giving them a little more bite in my opinion.

2) I tend to use 2 trombones and 1 bass trombone. In my opinion there are two trombones that have a slightly more "nasal" quality and two that have a slightly more "gritty" quality (but I cannot remember which were which but logically 1-2 are the more nasal ones and 3-4 the grittier) so depending on which sound you prefer you might combine the two "nasal" ones, the two "grittier" ones or choose one of both (which is what I ended up doing - using the more nasal one for top lines and the grittier one for bottom lines if they are to be seperated). (Of course if you always use all four of them this isn't really helpful...)


----------



## Batrawi

soulofsound said:


> To improve the sound, i turn off "Mix" and use "Decca" (and sometimes "Close" mics) instead. Every brass track also gets a tape plugin on it or something to make it a little thicker. In case of the trombones there's also a exciter (Softube's Harmonic Processor but you can use any saturation really) i use to get a lot more presence and body. Alternatively you can use the bass trombones which have more body and sound better to my ears.
> Also check if the legato isn't locked in smooth, where it needs accent or marcato. And check the "sizzle" knob and whether it is dialed down too much for edge, or dialed up too much for intimate.
> Lastly, turn off the eq (if there is any) in the mixer and any reverbs and use a nice reverb. And if the divisi sound a little out of tune, set "Humanization" to "small" instead of "medium" or "large".
> 
> Many libraries these days go for a huge contemporary Hollywood sound. This library sounds more natural perhaps. I don't know. I find it useful in a lot of situations.


+1 to everything you've said. I'd like to stress how the sizzle knob is actually effective while it's commonly believed by people here that it's the source of all evil(overbuzzy sound). It is not. I actually tie it to the same CC for dynamics. It actually makes the sound mellower as you go down and brighter/more piercing as you go up, all while sounding smooth and natural which gives the instrument an even wider range of expression.


----------



## Evans

Batrawi said:


> I'd like to stress how the sizzle knob is actually effective while it's commonly believed by people here that it's the source of all evil(overbuzzy sound). It is not. I actually tie it to the same CC for dynamics. It actually makes the sound mellower as you go down and brighter/more piercing as you go up, all while sounding smooth and natural which gives the instrument an even wider range of expression.


Yes! Once I learned that it's really a Mellow/Sizzle knob and not just a "varying levels of sizzle" knob, the powerful engine got even more powerful.


----------



## jamwerks

Still thinking about the runs, had they also done a 4-note cell (H m3 H), that would have made possible any and all of the other 14-odd modes based on Harmonic minor and Harmonic major...


----------



## manuhz

Great features and playability for sure, but I still don´t like that room tone at all  Hope to be wrong!


----------



## Dopplereffect

jamwerks said:


> Still thinking about the runs, had they also done a 4-note cell (H m3 H), that would have made possible any and all of the other 14-odd modes based on Harmonic minor and Harmonic major...


Wouldn't you be able to do this with all the options they provide already? e.g. a harmonic minor: play "a" (with the 3-note pattern W-h), then "d" (also with the 3-note pattern W-h), then play "g#" with chromatic hold function and release it immediately when the run hits the a again (i.e. the second note of the run). Or start with the diatonic minor with the hold until the run hits f and then play g# with the chromatic hold.


----------



## krismiller1982

I'm still going to get MSS later this year.... But I decided this morning to pull the trigger on Synchron Dimension Strings Full + free Ponticello & Synchron Strings Pro Full. Hopefully I've made the right choice.


----------



## jamwerks

Dopplereffect said:


> Wouldn't you be able to do this with all the options they provide already? e.g. a harmonic minor: play "a" (with the 3-note pattern W-h), then "d" (also with the 3-note pattern W-h), then play "g#" with chromatic hold function and release it immediately when the run hits the a again (i.e. the second note of the run). Or start with the diatonic minor with the hold until the run hits f and then play g# with the chromatic hold.


Yeah that might work!


----------



## chapbot

krismiller1982 said:


> I'm still going to get MSS later this year.... But I decided this morning to pull the trigger on Synchron Dimension Strings Full + free Ponticello & Synchron Strings Pro Full. Hopefully I've made the right choice.


I always say go with what you know. You know you like those libraries and we still haven't heard MSS legato.


----------



## Batrawi

krismiller1982 said:


> Hopefully I've made the right choice.


you can always try and refund it if you didn't like it as per their policy.


----------



## axb312

Some parts of the runs vid sounded like there was an odd filter/ resonance on the strings (to me).

Not a fan of runs done like this, wish they'd just given us a super-fast legato or something playable like that....

Shorts sound pretty good...

Also not a fan of the numerous controls. Not sure if:
1. Keyswitches are uniform across sections.
2. Different types of shorts can be selected via keyswitch (or the velocity of the keyswitch itself).


----------



## ag75

Robert_G said:


> First post in this thread. I'm concerned that I've gotten my hopes up so much that this may be the holy grail of string libraries. Everything I've seen so far is near perfect. This may be a must buy library.
> The amount of content is ridiculous. Everything is here. The sound is amazing. What's missing?
> 
> The other reason I'm getting my hopes up easy is because Audiobro made Genesis....and it IS the holy grail of children's choir libraries. Will Modern Scoring Strings achieve the same level?
> I'm almost wondering if MSB got overlooked? I don't own it, but I'm starting to wonder....


I agree with Genesis being one of the best Libraries. The legato is hands down the best scripting I’ve ever heard.


----------



## Evans

krismiller1982 said:


> I'm still going to get MSS later this year.... But I decided this morning to pull the trigger on Synchron Dimension Strings Full + free Ponticello & Synchron Strings Pro Full. Hopefully I've made the right choice.


Those are very good purchases, and both are powerful libraries. Synchron Player is way up there in regard to ability to shape your sounds. Sometimes, the extreme cleanliness and clarity of Synchron Strings Pro can make it sound a bit sterile, but it can definitely be dressed up.


----------



## rampant

Detune/custom aleatoric is good stuff! Definitely would be my go-to horror/tension strings library. And I love that it can be used with any articulation -- no more shall I have to edit Kontakt patches to add a limited-range pitch-bend


----------



## Dopplereffect

axb312 said:


> Some parts of the runs vid sounded like there was an odd filter/ resonance on the strings (to me).
> 
> Not a fan of runs done like this, wish they'd just given us a super-fast legato or something playable like that....
> 
> Shorts sound pretty good...
> 
> Also not a fan of the numerous controls. Not sure if:
> 1. Keyswitches are uniform across sections.
> 2. Different types of shorts can be selected via keyswitch (or the velocity of the keyswitch itself).


1. I think sections will have (almost) identical keyswitches, but you will be able to set them up the way you want anyway... (I say almost because SOME articulations might be missing: e.g. Double bass glissandi). It's done that way in MSB and it seems that they are very consistent even across libraries now.
2. Yes, both and more...


----------



## novaburst

axb312 said:


> Not a fan of runs done like this, wish they'd just given us a super-fast legato or something playable like that....


i think can still work on your own runs scales i guess in any string library by adding staccato or any harsh short layered on a legato if have good dexterity you shouldn't have a problem.

i think the demo is encouraging time saving plus it looks like you can delete and add notes to change the scale name or mode so there is that too


----------



## Batrawi

novaburst said:


> i think can still work on your own runs scales i guess in any string library by adding staccato or any harsh short layered on a legato


another alternative which I find more convincing is just playing with portamento.


----------



## dxmachina

> Will some of these runs parameter be controllable via the Logic articulation sets as described on your website for other articulations ?


You bet. I'm going to do a video on Artic Sets and Expression Maps.



> Is it possible to do an octotonic run?
> 
> Or would you need to break it down into multiple 3 or 4-note phrases?


We don't have a built in preset for octotonic runs (at least in 1.0). It also depends on the run you want to do in particular.



> 1) To my ears the trombones benefit the most from using the tighten-nob for the shorts. It really helps giving them a little more bite in my opinion.


Don't forget the cimbassi (aka the "weird trombones" according to my daughter).



> Not a fan of runs done like this, wish they'd just given us a super-fast legato or something playable like that....


Having one option does not exclude the other. There's a bit more to add to the runs equation with MSS that's not yet announced.



> 1. Keyswitches are uniform across sections.


Yes as much as the different ranges will allow for.



> 2. Different types of shorts can be selected via keyswitch (or the velocity of the keyswitch itself).


Either/both.

The video most are waiting for is in the works. There's still a lot more to demo after that of course.


----------



## dcoscina

Looks like a very deep library. Something that can address many different genres and styles.


----------



## yellow_lupine

dxmachina said:


> The video most are waiting for is in the works. There's still a lot more to demo after that of course.


Has anyone told legato???


----------



## Batrawi

dxmachina said:


> There's a bit more to add to the runs equation with MSS that's not yet announced.


am I smelling "intuition"?


----------



## muziksculp

I don't use Cubase, or Logic Pro (I'm on PC), I use Studio One Pro 5. Anything planned for MSS in the future as far as articulation Keyswitch presets support for S1Pro 5 ?


----------



## lettucehat

dxmachina said:


> The video most are waiting for is in the works.


Built-in effects page??


----------



## Batrawi

dxmachina said:


> The video most are waiting for is in the works.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Batrawi said:


>


Silky smooth?


----------



## Noeticus

LEGATO, LEGATO, LEGATO!


----------



## Jack Weaver

Maybe an hour long ‘Quick Start’ video that shows a bit of everything in context?

There seems to be a lot of moving parts. 

.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Jack Weaver said:


> Maybe an hour long ‘Quick Start’ video that shows a bit of everything in context?
> 
> There seems to be a lot of moving parts.
> 
> .


I would love them to do this. Writing a string part/song incorporating most of the techniques and flow.


----------



## maestro2be

Jack Weaver said:


> Maybe an hour long ‘Quick Start’ video that shows a bit of everything in context?
> 
> There seems to be a lot of moving parts.
> 
> .


As long as it doesn't delay release date  lol!


----------



## Lazer42

bvaughn0402 said:


> I would love them to do this. Writing a string part/song incorporating most of the techniques and flow.


This would be okay as long as they also let us hear individual lines out of a mix. I always find it very hard to judge libraries when all the demos are full compositions that go in and out of different articulations and mix everything together.


----------



## prodigalson

Sean J said:


> StaffPad or no deal.
> 
> Great library. I've just moved on from the DAW world. I compose on my iPad. I write more, faster, better, and it sounds better than my Kontakt versions. Easily. I'm not complaining about what this product is. Great stuff. No complaints. I'd just like to see it on a different platform is all.


I'm not going to buy a new car ever again unless it's a plane. It just gets me there faster. No problem with cars, I'd just like them to be aeroplanes.


----------



## feck

Sean J said:


> I compose on my iPad. I write more, faster, better, and it sounds better than my Kontakt versions.


Because the iPad is well regarded for its superior DAC.


----------



## JEPA

Only threads with 100 pages are worth the reading...


----------



## muziksculp

With a few posters commenting about their dislike for the Room sound of MSS, maybe a video that focuses on the room sound, and the way the various articulations sound via the close mics, and then combination of mics, ..etc. Just to clear thing up for those who seem to be critical of the room ambience of MSS.


----------



## jamwerks

Listening to the short clip of the Surround only seems not ugly, but nothing beautiful. I do like the size (it sounds medium) of the room.

I wouldn't mind hearing Stage plus half-Close going through 7th Heaven or Cinematic Rooms.


----------



## N.Caffrey

what is the reason behind the contractual secret of the room? not sure I understand it


----------



## jamwerks

Don't know but may be AB doesn't want too much discussion about the room or players, concentrating on the library?


----------



## N.Caffrey

jamwerks said:


> Don't know but may be AB doesn't want too much discussion about the room or players, concentrating on the library?


Well he mentioned he can't say anything about it because of a contract, so I think there might be more to it..


----------



## Batrawi

N.Caffrey said:


> Well he mentioned he can't say anything about it because of a contract, so I think there might be more to it..


let's say it's just a condition put by the other party AB is dealing with. So regardless what its logic is, AB simply can't do anything about it.


----------



## N.Caffrey

Batrawi said:


> let's say it's just a condition put by the other party AB is dealing with. So regardless what its logic is, AB simply can't do anything about it.


Sure, I wasn't accusing anybody, just found it curious and was trying to understand why a studio wouldn't want anybody to know that a library was recorded there.. unless maybe AB doesn't want other sample developers to record there so they don't say where it was recorded? that could make sense


----------



## jamwerks

N.Caffrey said:


> Well he mentioned he can't say anything about it because of a contract, so I think there might be more to it..


Not all truths are good to be said to all the world...


----------



## Evans

There could be many reasons, both good and bad for the consumer. Only thing we can do is to trust our ears.


----------



## Raphioli

Theres also a chance that the reason itself is also included in the NDA.


----------



## shawnsingh

N.Caffrey said:


> what is the reason behind the contractual secret of the room? not sure I understand it


My guess is that the venue or the performers would be worried that they may lose business of real gigs if people knew that a good virtual version of themselves was available.


----------



## Casiquire

It could be as simple as the studio not wanting the library to compete against live strings recorded there, or believing samples are inferior and not wanting them associated with their name.

Or maybe they produce their own samples as well, or there's a competitor who records samples there and THEY are the ones who locked in an agreement that they can advertise the name of the room and nobody else can


----------



## Raphioli

shawnsingh said:


> My guess is that the venue or the performers would be worried that they may lose business of real gigs if people knew that a good virtual version of themselves was available.


So basically the studio and players were afraid of how high quality the library is.
Thats a good sign


----------



## jamwerks

Air Studios, Abby Road, Sony, none of them wanted their names to be known?

My guess is that AB doesn't want to talk about eastern European studios and players. If that's what it is. But the final sound is really all that matters (to us). But AB is thinking about business, which is totally cool.


----------



## Batrawi

My guess is that once you put two company names together, people automatically link their reputations to each other and companies don't want to be tied to that. VI industry is no exception since it's growing more and more and becoming even more appealing to big name composers. Stage owners wouldn't want to leave a bitter taste in composers' mouth who may be turned off by poor developers scripting/bad recording etc... which can eventually turn into a blame on the stage itself that composers may possibly never want to visit for live recording... Am I exaggerating? probably yes, but reputational risk is likely there.


----------



## N.Caffrey

great answers


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

feck said:


> Because the iPad is well regarded for its superior DAC.


Maybe it's not the DAC, but the best performance and programming of samples? I've noticed that the Berlin Strings in StaffPad Legato perform better than the version of the capsule in Native Instruments Kontakt. It sounds more realistic. As it turned out, StaffPad has a different developer, other scripts and completely different methods that differ from the rest of the DAW.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Well if it was Abbey Road, they may now be contracted with Spitfire in terms of naming. So could be any mention would cause conflicts or fees. So keeping it hidden avoids that. Just a guess though ...


----------



## Noeticus

Since I sometimes use Audioease's Altiverb, I do not worry so much about the room.

Altiverb with the close mics can work wonders, and EQ if need be.


----------



## Pianolando

If the studio is not one of the few very well known, that many big scores have been recorded in, Audiobro has nothing to gain by telling where it’s recorded. If it was a Eastern European studio with musicians from there, this thread would be spammed for weeks with people talking about imagined problems with the sound of the room.


----------



## manuhz

tbh, the only thing that would worry me about this library is just the overall room sound. We´ll see...


----------



## muziksculp

manuhz said:


> tbh, the only thing that would worry me about this library is just the overall room sound. We´ll see...


@dxmachina ,

See, here you go, another potential customer worried, about the *room sound*.

That's why I'm suggesting that you make a video highlighting, and showing this important detail, where we can hear the room sound with various articulations, and mic mixes, so you can put the Room Sound question/issue to rest.

Thanks.


----------



## Evans

Pianolando said:


> If the studio is not one of the few very well known, that many big scores have been recorded in, Audiobro has nothing to gain by telling where it’s recorded. If it was a Eastern European studio with musicians from there, this thread would be spammed for weeks with people talking about imagined problems with the sound of the room.


I'm not sure these are "imagined problems." Some developers have access to some of the actual best rooms in the world, which are considered the best due to (among other reasons beyond my knowledge) both their physical structure and the recording techniques for that specific space that have been refined over decades.

I'm not saying that anyone with a library of any significant cost is recording in a high school gym in Texas. I'm also not saying that a room is _the _reason to acquire or ignore a library.

With that said, I _love_ several libraries from a developer I won't name here, but their recording space (and techniques, or what have you) do bring their libraries down a bit when exposed too much or when attempting to blend with "the best in the world."


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

What‘s the problem with the room, may I ask? It‘s a good compromise between small and large, at least from what I heard. I‘m happy that it‘s not à la Spitfire wetness.


----------



## Batrawi




----------



## Evans

Oh, by the way, I'm not complaining about the MSS room. Just saying that, in general, it's not something to be dismissed as a factor in VIs.


----------



## BasariStudios

So...are this yet the Best Strings that there ever is or what?


----------



## Evans

BasariStudios said:


> So...are this yet the Best Strings that there ever is or what?


Depends on the pizzicatos.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Can’t wait to see the onboard effects tab.


----------



## BasariStudios

Evans said:


> Depends on the pizzicatos.


Let's wait and see...if they are bUrtok or hOOpus


----------



## Casiquire

Make fun all you want, I'm very happy to see a video about each piece of what makes the library special. And it's literally what we asked for after their previous libraries.


----------



## Leo

Pianolando said:


> If the studio is not one of the few very well known, that many big scores have been recorded in, Audiobro has nothing to gain by telling where it’s recorded. If it was a Eastern European studio with musicians from there, this thread would be spammed for weeks with people talking about imagined problems with the sound of the room.


Do you doubt about this recording studio?





'Eastern European' studio in Bratislava (Slovakia)


----------



## dxmachina

> I don't use Cubase, or Logic Pro (I'm on PC), I use Studio One Pro 5. Anything planned for MSS in the future as far as articulation Keyswitch presets support for S1Pro 5 ?


Nothing is planned for Studio One at this point. How is the articulation management feature? I think I last tried v4 and there wasn't anything as far as I could tell.



> That's why I'm suggesting that you make a video highlighting, and showing this important detail, where we can hear the room sound with various articulations, and mic mixes, so you can put the Room Sound question/issue to rest.


You'll definitely be hearing a lot more of the library between coming videos and audio demos. If anyone is still worried after that it's something we can look at showing in a dedicated video. I _think_ most would rather hear legatos and audio demos first at this point and we're on our way to getting those out.

One thing I'll mention (for whatever it's worth) is that we frequently ask our primary beta team (around 15 prickly-and-way-too-honest-if-you-ask-me professional composers) to rank our beta features based on their preferences. I think universally the sound of the library/room ranked as a favorite feature. Now _everyone_ is of course entitled to their own preferences, so past that I'll let the audio speak for itself and let everyone make up their own minds. Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings. 😭


----------



## mussnig

Pianolando said:


> If the studio is not one of the few very well known, that many big scores have been recorded in, Audiobro has nothing to gain by telling where it’s recorded. If it was a Eastern European studio with musicians from there, this thread would be spammed for weeks with people talking about imagined problems with the sound of the room.


If I remember correctly, the Strezov Choirs (and probably their other libraries as well) were recorded in Eastern Europe (Bulgaria) and I think they also recorded some choral music for the soundtrack of Solo: A Star Wars Story there. I don't see people complaining about this here ...


----------



## Russell Anderson

Casiquire said:


> Make fun all you want, I'm very happy to see a video about each piece of what makes the library special. And it's literally what we asked for after their previous libraries.


We can make fun, and appreciate everything having been released at the same time! I’m not taking any of these memes to be serious suggestions that the videos aren’t covering anything of value. I agree with you these videos are great and useful and do an excellent job whetting the palette for the grand finale(s) which are currently underway. Of course everyone wants to hear legato. But we are just having a good time.


----------



## Kony

I've said this before - my brother played oboe on some of the LOTR sessions and some of those sessions were recorded in town halls around Greater London. Did anyone notice?


----------



## soulofsound

Leo said:


> Do you doubt about this recording studio?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Eastern European' studio in Bratislava (Slovakia)


I was in Prague in the summer of 1990, months after the fall of the Berlin wall. You could buy Smetana or Bartok cds for next to nothing that i still play today because of the good recording quality. I don't know what people dislike about Eastern Europe, but classical music can't be it.


----------



## FireGS

Kony said:


> I've said this before - my brother played oboe on some of the LOTR sessions and some of those sessions were recorded in town halls around Greater London. Did anyone notice?


I did. It was glorious.


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> With a few posters commenting about their dislike for the Room sound of MSS, maybe a video that focuses on the room sound, and the way the various articulations sound via the close mics, and then combination of mics, ..etc. Just to clear thing up for those who seem to be critical of the room ambience of MSS.


You ask the best questions!


----------



## Robert_G

muziksculp said:


> With a few posters commenting about their dislike for the Room sound of MSS, maybe a video that focuses on the room sound, and the way the various articulations sound via the close mics, and then combination of mics, ..etc. Just to clear thing up for those who seem to be critical of the room ambience of MSS.


If the room issue is anything like Genesis, then I wouldn't be worried. I didn't like rooms that came with Genesis, but the library adapted very well when I shut off the rooms that came with it and shaped my own with the reverbs I have. It was never an issue and all my other libs seem to blend nicely with it. I expect the same with MSS and I'm not concerned.


----------



## ansthenia

dxmachina said:


> Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings. 😭


That's what you think!!


----------



## muziksculp

dxmachina said:


> Nothing is planned for Studio One at this point. How is the articulation management feature? I think I last tried v4 and there wasn't anything as far as I could tell.


Studio One Pro 5 has an articulation switching feature, it is straight forward, and basic. Easy to setup. It might be getting more sophisticated features to switch via CC, and other variables in the future, but for now, it offers keyswitch lane in the key-editor, so you can assign notes the articulation you want by name once you have assigned these articulations to keyswitches. So, I don't see why you can't offer Studio One Pro 5 users an MSS ready keyswitches. It should be easy to implement.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> So, I don't see why you can't offer Studio One Pro 5 users an MSS ready keyswitches. It should be easy to implement.


Time. It takes additional time.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Time. It takes additional time.


Well.. creating keyswitches in S1Pro 5 is super fast, and easy, not convoluted like Cubase Expression-Maps, so it will be something they can do in a matter of a few hours, maybe two hrs max, we are not talking days.


----------



## Russell Anderson

FireGS said:


> Time. It takes additional time.


That’s something could implement after release without ruckus from the crowd. That would certainly fall more in “upgrade” versus “fixing broken features in a rushed release”.


----------



## muziksculp

Anyways.. It's not a big deal if they don't offer S1Pro 5 Keyswitches for MSS, I can create them myself if I end up buying MSS. 

AudioBro can also add them later as an update to MSS. Studio One Pro 5 is becoming a very popular DAW with media composers, so I urge sample developers not to just focus on Cubase, and Logic, and ignore S1.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Nobody can remotely compare Studio One 5 keyswitches with Cubase Expression Maps or, even with his limitations, Logic Art sets. In Cubase you can combine everything you want (notes, CC, velocity, program changes...) in an unlimited manner. Studio One 5 only sends out one single note.


----------



## yellow_lupine

dxmachina said:


> One thing I'll mention (for whatever it's worth) is that we frequently ask our primary beta team (around 15 prickly-and-way-too-honest-if-you-ask-me professional composers) to rank our beta features based on their preferences. I think universally the sound of the library/room ranked as a favorite feature. Now _everyone_ is of course entitled to their own preferences, so past that I'll let the audio speak for itself and let everyone make up their own minds. Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings. 😭


Don't worry @dxmachina, people always find out how to complain.
If someone doesn't like the room sounds can always use the close mics only and apply his preferred reverb, just in case.
To me the room sound is excellent, specially because it has not that horrible issue like the one in Berlin Series where the room simply disappears in fast passages (legatos particularly) revealing the dry sound only but on the last played note... completely unrealistic.

Keep going Audio Bro, I'm looking forward to listen to legatos


----------



## novaburst

yellow_lupine said:


> Don't worry @dxmachina, people always find out how to complain.
> If someone doesn't like the room sounds can always use the close mics only and apply his preferred reverb, just in case.


+1

I think it's clear that an exceptional library is about to come out, as of now it has created a lot of excitement, you will get those who will try to make nothing into something and then try to snow ball it
To take attention away from a very welcomed product. 

I think the idea of every thing must match what I have and if it does not then the sound or room is bad, I think that idea is not founded, 

There is such thing as working around or with a product (library) if the library is the main attraction then find things to enhance it. Work with it. 

Not every thing is going to sound like yesterdays things


----------



## Batrawi

For those still scratching their heads about the room, this is just an assumption... but my observation of how AB got things rolling in the recent years starting by Genesis then MSB and now MSS (all fairly close to one another & with similar Engine) makes me think that they were all setup in the same room to match perfectly together. That said here is a link to AB website for some pictures taken from Genesis Children Choir ssessions where you can also see the stage.






Genesis Session Pictures







audiobro.com





...another conspiracy theory suggests that those children are also MSS' strings players when they grew up


----------



## Piotrek K.

Batrawi said:


> For those still scratching their heads about the room, this is just an assumption... but my observation of how AB got things rolling in the recent years starting by Genesis then MSB and now MSS (all fairly close to one another & with similar Engine) makes me think that they were all setup in the same room to match perfectly together. That said here is a link to AB website for some pictures taken from Genesis Children Choir ssessions where you can also see the stage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Genesis Session Pictures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...another conspiracy theory suggests that those children are also MSS' strings players when they grew up


https://www.budapestscoring.com/


----------



## Batrawi

Piotrek K. said:


> https://www.budapestscoring.com/


NICE CATCH!

No wonder why I immediately related the sound to SESS (which also sounds wonderful) once I heard MSS


----------



## Pianolando

Leo said:


> Do you doubt about this recording studio?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Eastern European' studio in Bratislava (Slovakia)



That is beautiful and I have no doubt the studio sounds amazing, I hope to record there or in Prague some day. I do believe that (some) people would whine about it if they found it that MSS was recorded there instead of one of the more famous scoring studios, therefore I think it’s smart not to tell where it is and let the sound speak for itself instead.

Btw, so far I think MSS sounds amazing and I will certainly buy it the day it comes out.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Batrawi said:


> For those still scratching their heads about the room, this is just an assumption... but my observation of how AB got things rolling in the recent years starting by Genesis then MSB and now MSS (all fairly close to one another & with similar Engine) makes me think that they were all setup in the same room to match perfectly together. That said here is a link to AB website for some pictures taken from Genesis Children Choir ssessions where you can also see the stage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Genesis Session Pictures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...another conspiracy theory suggests that those children are also MSS' strings players when they grew up


Yeah, I know these photos of Studio 22. And I also though that it would be nice to have all libraries recorded in the same room. At least it would make sense.

But why then make it a secret? Back then with Genesis they openly talked about it.


----------



## Batrawi

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> But why then make it a secret? Back then with Genesis they openly talked about it.


what is a "rule" today may have not been a rule yesterday...
Let's pretend we're developers and contact budapest scoring to ask them if we can record a library at their end and let's see what T&C's they will send back


----------



## Aldunate

I need Divisi Strings, there's Audiobro , Native Instruments, Spitfire Studio Strings Pro and an upcoming release from Sonokinetic.
Does anyone knows about a good Divisi String library?


----------



## N.Caffrey

Aldunate said:


> I need Divisi Strings, there's Audiobro , Native Instruments, Spitfire Studio Strings Pro and an upcoming release from Sonokinetic.
> Does anyone knows about a good Divisi String library?


Hans Zimmer Strings. You've got 60 violins, or 20+20+20


----------



## ScoringFilm

Aldunate said:


> Does anyone knows about a good Divisi String library?


Any Kontakt String library with this script:!






Multi Divisi Script v6.5


Multi Divisi Script v6.5 This multiscript takes incoming polyphonic midi data and divides it between (up-to) six (monophonic) instruments. v6.5 added: Note Off Delay (NOD) can sometimes help with stuck notes in heavily scripted instruments. User assignable CCs for various controls Many...




vi-control.net


----------



## maestro2be

Kony said:


> I've said this before - my brother played oboe on some of the LOTR sessions and some of those sessions were recorded in town halls around Greater London. Did anyone notice?


We simply must demand that you expose the locations of such madness! Only then can we begin to dissect it and find flaws that weren't there before!  lol (duck)


----------



## Evans

Kony said:


> I've said this before - my brother played oboe on some of the LOTR sessions and some of those sessions were recorded in town halls around Greater London. Did anyone notice?


Isn't this a stretchy or at least confusing statement for the London-area recordings? 

By all means correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that, yes, some of the trilogy was recorded at Watford town hall / Watford assembly hall, but that's really just a confusing naming of this place, depending on where you're from and the connotation of "town hall":


Trafalgar Theatres



They claim to house "the best live music and entertainment outside London." It was formerly known as The Town Hall.

Now, as an American idiot, what I believe many of us think about as a "town hall outside of a larger city," so to speak, is more like this puny affair:


----------



## ScoringFilm

maestro2be said:


> We simply must demand that you expose the locations of such madness! Only then can we begin to dissect it and find flaws that weren't there before!  lol (duck)


There are lots of these halls all around the UK, designed in the classic box shape, renowned for their acoustic properties (like Vienna Grosser Musikvereinsaal, Amsterdam Concertgebouw and Boston Symphony Hall). Unfortunately many have succumbed to 'progress' and are now hotels or been completely demolished.

I believe that the hall for LOTR (and some of the old Star Wars recordings) was the Colosseum (formerly the Watford assembly hall).

Kingsway Hall and Walthamstow Town Hall were also used by Decca, HMV, RCA & EMI for many orchestral recordings in the mid/late 1900s.


----------



## manuhz

Batrawi said:


>


Be careful, we know who we are and what we do!


----------



## manuhz

Batrawi said:


> For those still scratching their heads about the room, this is just an assumption... but my observation of how AB got things rolling in the recent years starting by Genesis then MSB and now MSS (all fairly close to one another & with similar Engine) makes me think that they were all setup in the same room to match perfectly together. That said here is a link to AB website for some pictures taken from Genesis Children Choir ssessions where you can also see the stage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Genesis Session Pictures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...another conspiracy theory suggests that those children are also MSS' strings players when they grew up


No conspiracy theory, only well-founded opinions.

As a former LASS user I have reasonable doubts about well known "problematic" sound profiles. And like Genesis, MSB and now MSS are supposed to be recorded in te same location. So for sure they will share most of the sound attributes where the room plays a primary role but it also depends on other important factors, right?

An instrument is more than its sound, and I really adore the playability and the innovative options from every AB instrument, but until now I dislike those raw, resonant, "oppressed" and uninspirational sound attributes from every AB library. Will MSS changes all those things? I wish it soooo much!!!


----------



## Evans

manuhz said:


> And like Genesis, MSB and now MSS are supposed to be recorded in te same location.


I saw that Genesis was recorded in the same space, but also MSB? I hadn't seen that. Might've missed it.


----------



## manuhz

Evans said:


> I saw that Genesis was recorded in the same space, but also MSB? I hadn't seen that. Might've missed it.


They are supposed to be recorded in the same location.... but unfortunately we are only speculating because AB keeps hiding this information.


----------



## Aldunate

N.Caffrey said:


> Hans Zimmer Strings. You've got 60 violins, or 20+20+20


Jajajaj over the top, I mean some traditional orchestra and positions.


----------



## Batrawi

manuhz said:


> but until now I dislike those raw, resonant, "oppressed" and uninspirational sound attributes from every AB library.


Now there is a large population (to which I belong myself) who love the sound of every AB library for the exact same reasons why you dislike it. This is rather a matter of company's philosophy (trying to make the instrument sound as neutral/natural/flexible as much as possible) more than it being simply about a matter of "taste".... But that's not to degrade at all of the other team's philosophy (those who like their instrument to be more coloured with the character of the space in which it was recorded)... unfortunately though this is where it's impossible to please everyone. Here is also an unforgettable post by dgburns in regards to this matter. I could not put it in better words...


dgburns said:


> Well, I can’t speak to taste, how we all hear things is ultimately up to us. I am a long time LASS user. I use them all the time. I don’t even eq them much, I just accept the way they sound. Obviously, modest use of modwheel is the key. This has been discussed to death.
> 
> Lass can sound ugly, brash, especially that upper mid range on the violins. But so can the real thing. This is what actually impressed me the most when it came out, finally a library with the guts to give you the tools to make things sounds ‘on the other side of pretty’. It does not always work, it is not always the best choice. But it brings life to the mockup, the cellos are especially great. Ok maybe they have been strongly eq’d, they sound really forward in the midrange, but boy can they punch.
> 
> In the right hands, with the right arrangement, this is a libray with the capacity to emote very strongly. This appears to be an Audiobro trait, same as their brass. No training wheels or safety belt, you don’t program them with respect, it will suck. So don’t suck.
> 
> Your loss is my gain.
> 
> I do hope there is a balance between the rawness of the old, but with some potential for added finess in the new lib. I for one will buy it as a no brainer. As was expressed by a fellow colleague here, my ROI on this lib has been ridiculous, LASS has paid for itself a hundred times over.
> 
> Looking forward to the new lib, I’m sure it will be fantastic.


----------



## LynxUK

muziksculp said:


> Anyways.. It's not a big deal if they don't offer S1Pro 5 Keyswitches for MSS, I can create them myself if I end up buying MSS.
> 
> AudioBro can also add them later as an update to MSS. Studio One Pro 5 is becoming a very popular DAW with media composers, so I urge sample developers not to just focus on Cubase, and Logic, and ignore S1.


Yeh, agreed. The keyswitch file in S1 is a basic xml file. What I now do is have a "template" file with placeholders and have semi automated the process wiith an advanced text editor (Niotepad++ will do), and can knock out a new keyswitch file in seconds. I think Spitfires Symphonic Library (Strings, Brass and Woods) took about 10 mins to create for all the multis.


----------



## Kony

Evans said:


> Isn't this a stretchy or at least confusing statement for the London-area recordings?
> 
> By all means correct me if I'm wrong


I don't think either of us is wrong. I can only go off what my bro said - and not sure we're going to see lesser-known venues "advertised" anyway. His exact words were that they'd sometimes have to use ad-hoc arrangements with a town hall if Air or Abbey Rd were unavailable, since those two are in high demand naturally.

Henry Wood Hall, Watford Town Hall, Air and Abbey Road are listed for London, along with Aigle Studios (Dublin), and Wellington Town Hall (NZ) - and Walthamstow Town Hall is also a regular recording venue for the LPO. The point still is that different venues were used - does anyone really notice?


----------



## ChristianM

N.Caffrey said:


> Hans Zimmer Strings. You've got 60 violins, or 20+20+20


or HZ (20+20+20) and divB (20+20+20) + detune


----------



## Casiquire

Aldunate said:


> I need Divisi Strings, there's Audiobro , Native Instruments, Spitfire Studio Strings Pro and an upcoming release from Sonokinetic.
> Does anyone knows about a good Divisi String library?


Dimension Strings and Hollywood Strings are the other two not mentioned


----------



## artmanjam

Casiquire said:


> Dimension Strings and Hollywood Strings are the other two not mentioned


But no 2nd violins in DS...


----------



## muziksculp

artmanjam said:


> But no 2nd violins in DS...


The VSL Synchronized Dimension Strings have 2nd Violins. Which is another good reason to get the Synchronized Dim-Strings instead of the older VI version. 

From the Synchronized Dim-Strings VSL site page:

Five Flexible String Ensembles, perfectly SYNCHRON-ized​
5 String sections:
8 First Violins • 8 Second Violins • 6 Violas • 6 Cellos • 4 Double Basses


----------



## Zedcars

I missed the videos posted the other day so have only just caught up. When I watched the runs and scales video I sat here listening with an amazed but delighted smile. Then I watched the Detune Tool video and my smile turned into a big wide cheesy grin of astonishment. I'm so excited by this library. When you introduce live detuning one a per note level you really are getting much closer to the kind a variation that moves closer to a real string section. Of course, this is not per violin, but still it is really incredible they have implemented this. I know VSL have the 'Humanizer' feature in VI Pro which has similar live detuning and it works really well. I don't really understand why most library developers do not do this, but maybe it is just really hard to get right without it sounding artificial. Judging from the video it seems AudioBro have cracked it. Looking forward to playing with this once its released.


----------



## chapbot

I still haven't forgiven audiobro for not meeting their January release but if they put out that legato video today my heart may soften 🤣


----------



## LamaRose

So far, this looks and sounds like a _true_ Game Changer... everything just sounds "WOW."


----------



## Zedcars

chapbot said:


> I still haven't forgiven audiobro for not meeting their January release but if they put out that legato video today my heart may soften 🤣


January Smanuary. I'd much rather a restaurant serves my lobster thermidor a bit late but tastes magnifique rather than on time but the lobster starts winking at me then jumps off the plate and scuttles away!🦞


----------



## muziksculp

*MSS* is going to be quite a challenge for other Sample Developers to beat, given all of its advanced features. It is surely setting a new level of sophistication, and excellence for Strings Libraries. 

A true next generation strings library in 2021. 

Now.. Let's have some more MSS videos please.


----------



## Noeticus

muziksculp said:


> The VSL Synchronized Dimension Strings have 2nd Violins. Which is another good reason to get the Synchronized Dim-Strings instead of the older VI version.
> 
> From the Synchronized Dim-Strings VSL site page:
> 
> Five Flexible String Ensembles, perfectly SYNCHRON-ized​
> 5 String sections:
> 8 First Violins • 8 Second Violins • 6 Violas • 6 Cellos • 4 Double Basses


Yes, indeed... however, the 2nd violins are not separate recordings, but rather the 1st violins made into the 2nd via the "transposition trick".


----------



## muziksculp

Noeticus said:


> Yes, indeed... however, the 2nd violins are the not separate recordings, but rather the 1st violins made into the 2nd via the "transposition trick".


Yes, that's correct, but they still sound good, and provide you with the 2nd violins functionality that is missing in the older VI version.


----------



## karender

Casiquire said:


> Dimension Strings and Hollywood Strings are the other two not mentioned


Correct me if i'm wrong. As far as i know, they are not real recorded divisis. Just divisi mics.


ScoringFilm said:


> Any Kontakt String library with this script:!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multi Divisi Script v6.5
> 
> 
> Multi Divisi Script v6.5 This multiscript takes incoming polyphonic midi data and divides it between (up-to) six (monophonic) instruments. v6.5 added: Note Off Delay (NOD) can sometimes help with stuck notes in heavily scripted instruments. User assignable CCs for various controls Many...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


We are not talking about Auto-Divisi, we are talking about real recorded divisi sections. Like 8+8 1st Violins. You can fake it with various techniques but you can't really achieve real divisi. For example; if you play two notes with any 16Violins patch you'll get sample buildup with 32Violins. You can use smaller sections like 8Vlns but than you can't do unison because it'll be phase.

There are no real competitors for MSS when it comes to divisi. Only their previous libraries


----------



## FireGS

karender said:


> There are no real competitors for MSS when it comes to divisi. Only their previous libraries


Its like some sample developers don't write for strings and don't see the need for divisi. I just don't get how that's still acceptable in 2021. Glad AudioBro is continuing the divisi tradition.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Its like some sample developers don't write for strings and don't see the need for divisi. I just don't get how that's still acceptable in 2021. Glad AudioBro is continuing the divisi tradition.


Sonokinetic's upcoming new Strings Library Due this April will have Divisi features, but not sure if they are implementing Auto-Divisi functionality, like MSS.


----------



## mcalis

@muziksculp 
Not sure they got the message. Maybe ask again?


----------



## Casiquire

karender said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong. As far as i know, they are not real recorded divisis. Just divisi mics.
> 
> We are not talking about Auto-Divisi, we are talking about real recorded divisi sections. Like 8+8 1st Violins. You can fake it with various techniques but you can't really achieve real divisi. For example; if you play two notes with any 16Violins patch you'll get sample buildup with 32Violins. You can use smaller sections like 8Vlns but than you can't do unison because it'll be phase.
> 
> There are no real competitors for MSS when it comes to divisi. Only their previous libraries


For my purposes, it makes no difference whether it's a pair of divisi mics or a separately recorded section. The result is the same. I have two sections i can split or play unison however I wish.


artmanjam said:


> But no 2nd violins in DS...


With the amount of content included, it's not even necessary. Put one section on Vibrato and the other on Progressive Vibrato and voila. Same goes for all the articulations. There's so, so much variety. But the transposition trick is great as well and the Synchron version does it for us! It's an incredible library, but it does very different things from MSS and neither seems like it can take the other's place.


----------



## lettucehat

mcalis said:


> @muziksculp
> Not sure they got the message. Maybe ask again?


Hey watch it, you're talking about the guy who singlehandedly got Alex to post an update in the CSW thread by asking for an update over and over again, thus saving the thread from annoying people asking for updates!


----------



## Batrawi

mcalis said:


> @muziksculp
> Not sure they got the message. Maybe ask again?


I actually love how presistent @muziksculp is... I think he'll keep asking for videos even after they release the library


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> I actually love how presistent @muziksculp is... I think he'll keep asking for videos even after they release the library


Yes, I will.


----------



## borisb2

Maybe if we all ask often enough we will get MSW?.. or MSP?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

artmanjam said:


> But no 2nd violins in DS...


Dimension Strings is my go-to library. I only use 4 (!) players for each section, thus I can have separate players for 2nd violins.

Took me a long time to figure out what players sound good together and which articulations and controllers need to be combined. VSL‘s presets aren‘t very good, in my opinion, sorry to say. You really have to invest time and try things, but it‘s worth it. My setting can sound like a bigger Hollywood Strings section. Dimension Strings already sound bigger, because of the microphone bleed of the other players.


----------



## Casiquire

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Dimension Strings is my go-to library. I only use 4 (!) players for each section, thus I can have separate players for 2nd violins.
> 
> Took me a long time to figure out what players sound good together and which articulations and controllers need to be combined. VSL‘s presets aren‘t very good, in my opinion, sorry to say. You really have to invest time and try things, but it‘s worth it. My setting can sound like a bigger Hollywood Strings section. Dimension Strings already sound bigger, because of the microphone bleed of the other players.


Funny you say that, i usually only use 4 violinists too, or sometimes I'll do like 6/4. Only three basses at most. And it sounds larger than chamber sized. To my ears it sounds closer to Berlin Strings-size


----------



## ScoringFilm

karender said:


> We are not talking about Auto-Divisi, we are talking about real recorded divisi sections. Like 8+8 1st Violins. You can fake it with various techniques but you can't really achieve real divisi. For example; if you play two notes with any 16Violins patch you'll get sample buildup with 32Violins. You can use smaller sections like 8Vlns but than you can't do unison because it'll be phase.


If you use string libs with smaller sections sizes, either by mixing libs, or using the transpose trick you can get true divisi without phasing. e.g. 4+4 playing a unison note, or for a 2 note 'chord', 4 playing one note and 4 playing the other.

I agree that it is not the same as a true recorded divisi, however I have not heard any sample based recording that has convinced me that it makes any difference.

All personal preference I guess!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> Funny you say that, i usually only use 4 violinists too, or sometimes I'll do like 6/4. Only three basses at most. And it sounds larger than chamber sized. To my ears it sounds closer to Berlin Strings-size


Yes, funny! Exactly what I experienced. Comparing to VSL Chamber Strings, for example, these sound smaller to only 4 Dimension Strings players, too.


----------



## Dopplereffect

ScoringFilm said:


> If you use string libs with smaller sections sizes, either by mixing libs, or using the transpose trick you can get true divisi without phasing. e.g. 4+4 playing a unison note, or for a 2 note 'chord', 4 playing one note and 4 playing the other.
> 
> I agree that it is not the same as a true recorded divisi, however I have not heard any sample based recording that has convinced me that it makes any difference.
> 
> All personal preference I guess!


Personally I find that you do hear the difference. Not so much when playing harmonies but unisons and octaves clearly sound thinner and "colder" than when two different sections play unisons or octaves. That's why I'm glad Audiobro recorded both 1st and 2nd violins for MSS (as it was one of only a very few things I found lacking in LASS)


----------



## Noeticus

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Dimension Strings is my go-to library. I only use 4 (!) players for each section, thus I can have separate players for 2nd violins.
> 
> Took me a long time to figure out what players sound good together and which articulations and controllers need to be combined. VSL‘s presets aren‘t very good, in my opinion, sorry to say. You really have to invest time and try things, but it‘s worth it. My setting can sound like a bigger Hollywood Strings section. Dimension Strings already sound bigger, because of the microphone bleed of the other players.


Your ears are better than mine, as I do not hear the minimal microphone bleed of the other players.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noeticus said:


> Your ears are better than mine, as I do not hear the minimal microphone bleed of the other players.


Never said I can hear it! 😂 At least this is the concept of Dimension Strings. Otherwise you wouldn‘t achieve this cohesive sound out of single players.

But it‘s audible. You can‘t really use them as soloists.


----------



## Noeticus

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Never said I can hear it! 😂 At least this is the concept of Dimension Strings. Otherwise you wouldn‘t achieve this cohesive sound out of single players.
> 
> But it‘s audible. You can‘t really use them as soloists.


But..... if you cannot hear it, then why is it not solo worthy?


----------



## TintoL

I just finished watching all the videos. This thing is insane. It's going to be really hard to beat this monster...

I am soo happy I own lass full........ 

The string runs and recorded ostinatos are an awesome feature.


----------



## TintoL

THE "" DETUNE TOOL "" holy crap, that's why you read the whole thread...

I almost missed it.


----------



## constaneum

I think we can create a new thread for "AudioBro Modern Scoring Woodwinds" to create the hype as soon as MSS is released, just like what we did with CSW.


----------



## CT

Kony said:


> I've said this before - my brother played oboe on some of the LOTR sessions and some of those sessions were recorded in town halls around Greater London. Did anyone notice?


Well, John Kurlander and his team went to great lengths to make sure the sound was unified despite having to record in a handful of different venues on different continents.

I don't know what the overarching point of this conversation is, just wanted to note how integral those people were to the successful sound of those scores.


----------



## Raphioli

constaneum said:


> I think we can create a new thread for "AudioBro Modern Scoring Woodwinds" to create the hype as soon as MSS is released, just like what we did with CSW.


I'll make sure to be the first one to ask for legato videos.
But I feel like @muziksculp will beat me to it...


----------



## ChristianM

Raphioli said:


> Je m'assurerai d'être le premier à demander des vidéos legato.
> Mais j'ai l'impression que [USER = 189] @muziksculp [/ USER] va me battre pour ça ...


@muziksculp remembers the promises of VSL for Synchron Strings 1


----------



## Noeticus

10 days to go!!!

(maybe)


----------



## muziksculp

ChristianM said:


> @muziksculp remembers the promises of VSL for Synchron Strings 1


You have a good memory.


----------



## Zedcars

Noeticus said:


> 10 days to go!!!
> 
> (maybe)


If you don't think about it and keep busy, it goes much quicker...akin to the "watched pot" proverb.


----------



## Noeticus

According to Einstein, if you press F5 repeatedly, time slows down.


----------



## muziksculp

Zedcars said:


> If you don't think about it and keep busy, it goes much quicker...akin to the "watched pot" proverb.


And if they post some new videos the 10 days will go even faster, and be more fun.


----------



## novaburst

mcalis said:


> @muziksculp
> Not sure they got the message. Maybe ask again?


I think you missed one


----------



## maestro2be

muziksculp said:


> And if they post some new videos the 10 days will go even faster, and be more fun.


This is true!


----------



## Noeticus

I would like to see more videos about people posting more videos.


----------



## Evans

Video post dates (on YouTube):

Jan 13, 2021

Jan 19, 2021

Jan 24, 2021

Jan 25, 2021

Feb 1, 2021 (x2)
I anticipate another video sometime between today and the end of 2021.


----------



## Fidelity

Coming Feb 15th - that's no good...for my wallet. Who needs a car when you can have string libraries?


----------



## muziksculp

Fidelity said:


> Coming Feb 15th


It's still 'Estimated' to be out Feb. 15th


----------



## Luka

Well damn! I'm so impressed with all the things it can do! But is it just me or the general sound of the library is a bit synthy?


----------



## Danno

NoamL said:


> The integration of expression maps / articulationID is pretty nice, wish more devs would provide a turnkey solution to that (like UACC). For everything else.. well I have to wait to hear it...


As a Cubase user, this is VERY interesting.


----------



## Casiquire

Luka said:


> Well damn! I'm so impressed with all the things it can do! But is it just me or the general sound of the library is a bit synthy?


Too soon to tell. All we've heard so far has been prerecorded phrases and shorts, so really just the raw sound of actual recorded strings. Once we hear sustains and legatos i think we'll be able to say.


----------



## Noeticus

Luka said:


> Well damn! I'm so impressed with all the things it can do! But is it just me or the general sound of the library is a bit synthy?


No, I do not hear any synthy-ness at all.

What are you listening to it on?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Noeticus said:


> No, I do not hear any synthy-ness at all.
> 
> What are you listening to it on?


Probably listening to a magical synth from the future that actually just plays back waveforms played by trained musicians and recorded in a multi-million dollar hall. That next Serum update is crazy!

I do wonder if some people have ever actually used a synth to create a string patch.


----------



## Zedcars

Noeticus said:


> No, I do not hear any synthy-ness at all.
> 
> What are you listening to it on?


Through these


----------



## artinro

Luka said:


> Well damn! I'm so impressed with all the things it can do! But is it just me or the general sound of the library is a bit synthy?


Some moments definitely had that feel to me as well, to be honest. I suspect, though, that it has more to do with their IRs (which I've never loved) than the library itself. If I purchase this, I'll plan to turn all their processing off and run it through my own reverbs etc...


----------



## Noeticus

Next up will be the L____o video.


----------



## maestro2be

artinro said:


> Some moments definitely had that feel to me as well, to be honest. I suspect, though, that it has more to do with their IRs (which I've never loved) than the library itself. If I purchase this, I'll plan to turn all their processing off and run it through my own reverbs etc...


I don’t really hear much synthiness but the moment I seen people saying that here I thought perhaps they didn’t like a usage of reverb against the samples. I don’t really hear it being synthy as much as I hear a possible IR as stated above that perhaps some don’t like. That’s not saying others don’t though.

I am happy overall with what I hear and not making any judgements about the sound until I see more videos and options to turn off any coloring/adjust microphone percentages. Certainly longs and legatos could give us a great impression of the room sound. I would be surprised if they didn’t give us raw examples at some point as well.


----------



## shawnsingh

Noeticus said:


> Next up will be the L____o video.


wow, a Leggiero articulation?


----------



## lettucehat

maestro2be said:


> I don’t really hear much synthiness but the moment I seen people saying that here I thought perhaps they didn’t like a usage of reverb against the samples. I don’t really hear it being synthy as much as I hear a possible IR as stated above that perhaps some don’t like. That’s not saying others don’t though.
> 
> I am happy overall with what I hear and not making any judgements about the sound until I see more videos and options to turn off any coloring/adjust microphone percentages. Certainly longs and legatos could give us a great impression of the room sound. I would be surprised if they didn’t give us raw examples at some point as well.


I think it's just a disagreement over word choice - especially since a synth can sound like, well, anything. Synthy is not the word I'd use to describe it, but I also think he's referring to the sound resulting from possible use of IRs and/or excessive onboard reverb. We know the close mics sound good and I have a hard time believing they didn't set up the room mics right. Perhaps the combination used in one or two of the videos isn't sitting right with everybody, but they appear to be demonstrate multiple configurations among the various videos. I know that as much as I like LASS and this library so far, the provided out-of-the-box options aren't always to my taste, which isn't a big deal overall. Plenty of libraries like that. These just tend to skew a little boxy sounding to my ears, depending on the preset. Again the close mics sound amazing so I'm not worried a bit.


----------



## constaneum

Noeticus said:


> Next up will be the L____o video.


Legato !! Are we there yet ????????    Hype.....hype.....


----------



## Zedcars

constaneum said:


> Legato !! Are we there yet ????????    Hype.....hype.....


I think he means the next one will be the _Libido_ video...focusing on the longs, repetitions and a new Finger Position Tool™️

I apologise unreservedly.


----------



## PerryD

Zedcars said:


> I think he means the next one will be the _Libido_ video...focusing on the longs, repetitions and a new Finger Position Tool™️
> 
> I apologise unreservedly.


You must be thinking of Appassionata strings...


----------



## novaburst

Luka said:


> Well damn! I'm so impressed with all the things it can do! But is it just me or the general sound of the library is a bit synthy?


I think they are using the Prophet or the korg XD there maybe a yamaha synth in there somewhere


----------



## yellow_lupine

Luka said:


> Well damn! I'm so impressed with all the things it can do! But is it just me or the general sound of the library is a bit synthy?


Pre-recorded phrases synthy? That's absurd


----------



## Russell Anderson

If the timbre of SCS is likened to that of a nose, perhaps the room of MSS is comparable then to a mouth.

Listening to the cellos, I am reminded of when I am brushing my teeth, and adjusting the size of my mouth cavity in order to play a song with the overtones. There is a “mouth sound” to that room.

Even so, I look forward to owning this fantastic library at some point hopefully soon. A full ensemble to compliment my chamber ensemble, a mouth for my nose. I will write face music.


----------



## Noeticus

If I listen to violin music really, really closely, and hyper-focus on the sound, it sounds like perhaps horsehair rubbing against something like catgut or nylon, but am I imagining this?


----------



## eli0s

Luka said:


> Well damn! I'm so impressed with all the things it can do! But is it just me or the general sound of the library is a bit synthy?


I also find something weird to the sound. I would describe it like it has a bit of chorus or somewhat phase-y...
But at one point in one of the videos, they displayed the mices on their own without reverb, and the undesired effect disappeared!
The raw sound is much much better!!!
So, I also think that the internal reverb they use is responsible for this...


----------



## TintoL

I am sure that what you guys are calling synthy is more "overly wet with IR". Lass 2 has this massively raw sound where you can even hear the bows. 

Audiobro should do a video with raw sound. I did hear the runs at the beginning soo wet that felt weird. But, then you hear the smaller divici and the raw sound is there. 

Honestly, they should concentrate on the raw sound and avoid adding reverb in the videos.


----------



## Raphioli

eli0s said:


> But at one point in one of the videos, they displayed the mices on their own without reverb, and the undesired effect disappeared!


It would be great if Audiobro released demos with and without their IRs, imho. (considering there are people who don't like the sound with the IRs)

Or maybe they could provide a video of simple strings quartet playing something simple while switching through various IRs (going back and forth from RAW to IR processed)
But don't do it if you'll need to delay the release date again


----------



## ansthenia

I wish they did a pre-order pricing, like if you pre-order it now you get it for $5


----------



## Dopplereffect

ansthenia said:


> I wish they did a pre-order pricing, like if you pre-order it now you get it for $5


Totally reasonalble if you ask me!


----------



## Zedcars

No mention of muted strings unless I haven’t looked hard enough. If the strings weren’t recorded with mutes I wonder if they plan to add it artificially with a filter? 🤔


----------



## Dopplereffect

Zedcars said:


> No mention of muted strings unless I haven’t looked hard enough. If the strings weren’t recorded with mutes I wonder if they plan to add it artificially with a filter? 🤔


Euhm... Con sordino=mutes. The legato mutes are in the add-on library though.


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## chemie262

Zedcars said:


> No mention of muted strings unless I haven’t looked hard enough. If the strings weren’t recorded with mutes I wonder if they plan to add it artificially with a filter? 🤔


Sordino is included:

While the main MSS Full library includes *Sordino*, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont sustains, it does not offer the legato transitions of those articulations.


----------



## Zedcars

chemie262 said:


> Sordino is included:
> 
> While the main MSS Full library includes *Sordino*, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont sustains, it does not offer the legato transitions of those articulations.





muziksculp said:


>


Thank you. My bad. I’m glad to see it included.


----------



## Zedcars

Dopplereffect said:


> Euhm... Con sordino=mutes. The legato mutes are in the add-on library though.


👍


----------



## maestro2be

Zedcars said:


> No mention of muted strings unless I haven’t looked hard enough. If the strings weren’t recorded with mutes I wonder if they plan to add it artificially with a filter? 🤔


You didn’t look hard enough. Go back to the site and scroll down to the articulations. They are there.

*sorry should have refreshed before responding this was already handled* 😁


----------



## Zedcars

maestro2be said:


> You didn’t look hard enough. Go back to the site and scroll down to the articulations. They are there.
> 
> *sorry should have refreshed before responding this was already handled* 😁


I lazily searched the page for mutes, but forgot to search for sordino. 

It does indeed seem to cover almost everything. Only things missing would seem to be scordatura (even that can be simulated with detune, although not quite the same) and multiple stops. The former rarely used in an orchestral setting, and the latter would demand an incredible amount of extra recording time and programming effort. Have there been any string libraries that have multiple stops? Divisi does not sound the same.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Zedcars said:


> I lazily searched the page for mutes, but forgot to search for sordino.
> 
> It does indeed seem to cover almost everything. Only things missing would seem to be scordatura (even that can be simulated with detune, although not quite the same) and multiple stops. The former rarely used in an orchestral setting, and the latter would demand an incredible amount of extra recording time and programming effort. Have there been any string libraries that have multiple stops? Divisi does not sound the same.


Couldn't you just turn the auto-divisi off, turn down the vibrato and use the sustain patch (or the different shorts) and than play two, three or four note chords (slightly arpeggiated for three or four note chords) and have it sound rather closely to actual double (triple/quadrupel) stops?


----------



## Zedcars

Dopplereffect said:


> Couldn't you just turn the auto-divisi off, turn down the vibrato and use the sustain patch and than play two, three or four note chords (slightly arpeggiated for three or four note chords) and have it sound rather closely to actual double (triple/quadrupel) stops?


I suppose you could do that to approximate the sound. I'm sure others have tried to simulate multiple stops when doing mockups, but it's something I have never tried myself. I will have to get my experiment hat on. 

The way the 2/3/4 strings vibrate inside the body of the instrument to produce that specific sound is not something that can really be simulated exactly though I don't think. In a tutti it would probably go largely unnoticed.


----------



## Noeticus

I'm going to hold my breath, and stamp my feet, until I get the mighty MSS Legato video!!!


----------



## Zedcars

Evans said:


> Video post dates (on YouTube):
> 
> Jan 13, 2021
> Jan 19, 2021
> Jan 24, 2021
> Jan 25, 2021
> Feb 1, 2021 (x2)
> I anticipate another video sometime between today and the end of 2021.


Sooo, taking the number of days between each video release and averaging we can estimate when the next one will be...

6 Days
5 Days
1 Day
7 Days

Median average = 5.5

Mean average = 4.75

Range average = 6

Given the last videos were posted on 1st Feb, the median average would suggest a new video today...but nothing yet. The mean average would suggest a new video should have arrived yesterday (nope). And the range average suggests a new video is coming tomorrow (7th Feb).

Keep your eyes peeled everybody!


----------



## muziksculp

While we wait for more videos, and for Feb. 15th.

Here is a question for you seasoned string library users. the question is Not specific to MSS. 

Q. You wrote a nice sounding chord progression for Piano, at slow tempo. Now you would like to orchestrate it for Strings. 

Do you tend to use String Sustains, or Legato Patches to start fleshing out the string orchestration ? 

Thanks.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

muziksculp said:


> While we wait for more videos, and for Feb. 15th.
> 
> Here is a question for you seasoned string library users. the question is Not specific to MSS.
> 
> Q. You wrote a nice sounding chord progression for Piano, at slow tempo. Now you would like to orchestrate it for Strings.
> 
> Do you tend to use String Sustains, or Legato Patches to start fleshing out the string orchestration ?
> 
> Thanks.


I personally stick to sustains (allowing polyphony) until I'm sure who plays what. No legato until the voice leading is solid 

Edit : Of course, polyphonic legato solves this ^^


----------



## muziksculp

whitewasteland said:


> I personally stick to sustains (allowing polyphony) until I'm sure who plays what. No legato until the voice leading is solid
> 
> Edit : Of course, polyphonic legato solves this ^^


Hi @whitewasteland ,

Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for your valuable feedback.

OK, one more question.

So, once you have the voices all figured out, do you assign only the melodic, or let's say more exposed voices to legato patches, or do you switch all of the Sustain Voices to Legato ?


----------



## yellow_lupine

@dxmachina
Hello,
could you please tell us how is going on the release?
One week has left from your last estimated delivery and you told only keyswitches unification, store testing and download integrations were missing.
Last week you released two new videos and we all are awaiting for the first audio demos and legato video. How about that?
Shall we expect another delay? From what you said videos and demos should not defer the release, in which case I hope you will announce it long before February the 15th. 

Please keep us informed 
Many thanks.


----------



## lettucehat

Oh we’ve reached that point in this thread now, have we


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> While we wait for more videos, and for Feb. 15th.
> 
> Here is a question for you seasoned string library users. the question is Not specific to MSS.
> 
> Q. You wrote a nice sounding chord progression for Piano, at slow tempo. Now you would like to orchestrate it for Strings.
> 
> Do you tend to use String Sustains, or Legato Patches to start fleshing out the string orchestration ?
> 
> Thanks.


Very interesting questions I think a beautiful piano piece/progression is best left alone, 

And that is the issue with using piano to map out music in general, there is always a struggle should I or shouldn't I change this piece of progression to strings,


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

muziksculp said:


> Hi @whitewasteland ,
> 
> Makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for your valuable feedback.
> 
> OK, one more question.
> 
> So, once you have the voices all figured out, do you assign only the melodic, or let's say more exposed voices to legato patches, or do you switch all of the Sustain Voices to Legato ?


You're very welcome, just my opinion 

I guess it really depends on the library and style. For instance, if we're talking Brass chords, the players have to breathe so I won't always need those legato transitions and can save some ram. But chords and harmony don't have to be static and boring either, sometimes you can add a lot of life and beauty by adding passing notes and other spices. Then the legato transitions would help a lot even if it's not the main melodic line.

There are also cases where the legato patches and sustain patches are different in their sampling approach. For instance, in Nashville Scoring Strings the legato patch has 3 dynamic, and the Sustain has 4. Therefore if I don't need to hear those transitions, it will make more sense to use the sustains and get an additional dynamic layer.

Decisions! I guess everything always depends on the situation. That's how I see it anyway


----------



## muziksculp

whitewasteland said:


> You're very welcome, just my opinion
> 
> I guess it really depends on the library and style. For instance, if we're talking Brass chords, the players have to breathe so I won't always need those legato transitions and can save some ram. But chords and harmony don't have to be static and boring either, sometimes you can add a lot of life and beauty by adding passing notes and other spices. Then the legato transitions would help a lot even if it's not the main melodic line.
> 
> There are also cases where the legato patches and sustain patches are different in their sampling approach. For instance, in Nashville Scoring Strings the legato patch has 3 dynamic, and the Sustain has 4. Therefore if I don't need to hear those transitions, it will make more sense to use the sustains and get an additional dynamic layer.
> 
> Decisions! I guess everything always depends on the situation. That's how I see it anyway


Thanks for your insight, and opinion on this quite deep topic. 

I find experimenting is the key, which takes time. 

I don't know if you have tried using Divisimate ? I sometimes use it to speed up distributing the chord voices to the various string sections in real time, it is another helpful tool we have at our disposal.


----------



## muziksculp

novaburst said:


> Very interesting questions I think a beautiful piano piece/progression is best left alone,
> 
> And that is the issue with using piano to map out music in general, there is always a struggle should I or shouldn't I change this piece of progression to strings,


I mentioned Piano piece/Progression just as a generic example, it could have been written using a Strings Ensemble patch, or a Synth Pad patch, or ... anything else that can be played polyphonically to create a chord progression.


----------



## davidanthony

yellow_lupine said:


> Please keep us informed


FYI Audiobro is a 2 person operation, so every second they spend providing updates is a second they can't be working toward the release of the library. 

It seems like you're anxious for the library to be released, so my suggestion would be to let them work as fast as they can and check in on the 15th if it's still not available..


----------



## haydn12

I think most people don't realize how small most of the sample developer companies are. Most are just a few people. There are very few companies the size of Spitfire. I used to be a beta tester for many years. The majority of the libraries I tested were programmed by one person. They may have had help from 1 or 2 other people doing the sample editing and tuning. We would have multiple runs of testing to help find flaws and fine tune the library. With the size of MSS, this has to be a monumental task. So just relax at let them complete the library properly. 

Jim


----------



## Noeticus

But, what if we're too immature to be patient?


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> I mentioned Piano piece/Progression just as a generic example, it could have been written using a Strings Ensemble patch, or a Synth Pad patch, or ... anything else that can be played polyphonically to create a chord progression.


I see I was thinking changing a piano progression into a string progressing, I think the issue will still be there, a kind of first come first serve, 

I think weather being piano or synth or indeed strings the instruments have a tendency to make you take different approaches and feel differently about the piece, so many times the very first instrument used turns out to be the best but that's between you and the instrument if no one else hears it while the piece was being created its neither hear nor there, 

But I do hear a lot of string programmes and melody that feel it should be played by a piano, but I know that's another subject


----------



## Russell Anderson

muziksculp said:


> While we wait for more videos, and for Feb. 15th.
> 
> Here is a question for you seasoned string library users. the question is Not specific to MSS.
> 
> Q. You wrote a nice sounding chord progression for Piano, at slow tempo. Now you would like to orchestrate it for Strings.
> 
> Do you tend to use String Sustains, or Legato Patches to start fleshing out the string orchestration ?
> 
> Thanks.


I think JunkieXL had a good method of moving straight into orchestration based off of the “main idea”. You can see it in this video.


----------



## muziksculp

Russell Anderson said:


> I think JunkieXL had a good method of moving straight into orchestration based off of the “main idea”. You can see it in this video.



Hi @Russell Anderson ,

Thank You. I will check it out.


----------



## Saxer

muziksculp said:


> Do you tend to use String Sustains, or Legato Patches to start fleshing out the string orchestration ?


I stay with the piano until the orchestration is done. Then I copy the notes to the single string tracks or play it in while reading from the score editor window (in Logic).


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> Do you tend to use String Sustains, or Legato Patches to start fleshing out the string orchestration ?


For me I used to use string stutains or piano patches for sketching, but with @ScoringFilm brilliant script, now I can both sketch with legato patches and accurately hear the end result of the orchestarted sections without overlapping with each other (like they do in the sustains patch).



ScoringFilm said:


> Any Kontakt String library with this script:!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Multi Divisi Script v6.5
> 
> 
> Multi Divisi Script v6.5 This multiscript takes incoming polyphonic midi data and divides it between (up-to) six (monophonic) instruments. v6.5 added: Note Off Delay (NOD) can sometimes help with stuck notes in heavily scripted instruments. User assignable CCs for various controls Many...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


----------



## Casiquire

Zedcars said:


> I lazily searched the page for mutes, but forgot to search for sordino.
> 
> It does indeed seem to cover almost everything. Only things missing would seem to be scordatura (even that can be simulated with detune, although not quite the same) and multiple stops. The former rarely used in an orchestral setting, and the latter would demand an incredible amount of extra recording time and programming effort. Have there been any string libraries that have multiple stops? Divisi does not sound the same.


The only things i think it's missing are forced strings and bow change legato. I've never seen such a complete package though.


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> The only things i think it's missing are forced strings and bow change legato.


bow change legato isn't exactly missing, is it? Real transitions were not actually recorded, but I understood from Sebastian that they can be emulated thanks to the true various note attacks they recorded for each dynamic layer


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> bow change legato isn't exactly missing, is it? Real transitions were not actually recorded, but I understood from Sebastian that they can be emulated thanks to the true various note attacks they recorded for each dynamic layer


Sure, it's not the same though! Haha


----------



## Noeticus

I think the good news is that because we have not seen a video so far this weekend, it probably means that the February 15th release is going to happen, because they are spending time on the release, and not videos.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Anybody discern how are they calculating 256 RRs / 16 RRs for the shorts?


----------



## Dopplereffect

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody discern how are they calculating 256 RRs / 16 RRs for the shorts?


In my opinion that's only when you combine Violins I (A/B) with Violins II (A/B) because if everything has 16 then this combined patch (when set to random RR's) has a possible 256 combinations (16x16)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Dopplereffect said:


> In my opinion that's only when you combine Violins I (A/B) with Violins II (A/B) because if everything has 16 then this combined patch (when set to random RR's) has a possible 256 combinations (16x16)


So 8 per divisi section (A, B)? Does that mean per short articulation or across all 4 shorts (which would be 2 per short)?


----------



## Dopplereffect

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So 8 per divisi section (A, B)? Does that mean per short articulation or across all 4 shorts (which would be 2 per short)?


I'm only guessing but I think it's 4 RR per divisi section. So The whole Violins I patch has 4x4=16 possible combinations. This would be the same for all the other sections. The only exception would be if you'd load the complete Violins I + II (with the divisis) which would result in 4x4x4x4=256


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Dopplereffect said:


> I'm only guessing but I think it's 4 RR per divisi section. So The whole Violins I patch has 4x4=16 possible combinations. This would be the same for all the other sections. The only exception would be if you'd load the complete Violins I + II (with the divisis) which would result in 4x4x4x4=256


My guess was 4 RR for each of the 4 short articulations with 4 dynamic layers each for 4 violin divisi sections, which would 256. But that same pattern doesn't seem to work for violas, cellos, and basses, since their site says those only have 16 RR (which would imply then either fewer RRs per short or fewer dynamic layers - even with 2 divisi groups per instrument section).


----------



## Dopplereffect

ALittleNightMusic said:


> My guess was 4 RR for each of the 4 short articulations with 4 dynamic layers each for 4 violin divisi sections, which would 256. But that same pattern doesn't seem to work for violas, cellos, and basses, since their site says those only have 16 RR (which would imply then either fewer RRs per short or fewer dynamic layers - even with 2 divisi groups per instrument section).


I don't think they would count RR's for different dynamic layers seperately, but again, I'm only guessing.


----------



## shawnsingh

The way the description is worded on their website, I interpret it as: every individual dynamic layer for each short articulation had 4 RR samples. So when playing all four violin sections, there are 256 combinations of four sections each choosing from 4 RRs. Doesn't require crossing articulations or anything.


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> For me I used to use string stutains or piano patches for sketching, but with @ScoringFilm brilliant script, now I can both sketch with legato patches and accurately hear the end result of the orchestarted sections without overlapping with each other (like they do in the sustains patch).


Divisimate gives me the same functionality. But it doesn't restrict me to Kontakt.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

muziksculp said:


> Thanks for your insight, and opinion on this quite deep topic.
> 
> I find experimenting is the key, which takes time.
> 
> I don't know if you have tried using Divisimate ? I sometimes use it to speed up distributing the chord voices to the various string sections in real time, it is another helpful tool we have at our disposal.


Divisimate looks like a fantastic tool ! The only reason I haven’t tried it so far is because I’m afraid it changes my workflow too much...


----------



## bvaughn0402

Is there a "dummies" video on Divisimate? I think I get it, but I find their tutorial videos too complicated and not just a "here's the long way, and here is the short way with Divisimate".

I'm sure in essence, you play a chord and it divides that up in an intelligent way ... like if you have a 16 violin patch and play a three note chord then it splits that up somehow?

I guess in a way it never has made sense to me ... if a patch is recorded as 16 players, then nothing can magically sound like less players.

If it was a single player patch, then I could see it could double/triple the patch to make it sound like multiple players perhaps.

Guess I just don't understand ... :(


----------



## ansthenia

bvaughn0402 said:


> Is there a "dummies" video on Divisimate? I think I get it, but I find their tutorial videos too complicated and not just a "here's the long way, and here is the short way with Divisimate".
> 
> I'm sure in essence, you play a chord and it divides that up in an intelligent way ... like if you have a 16 violin patch and play a three note chord then it splits that up somehow?
> 
> I guess in a way it never has made sense to me ... if a patch is recorded as 16 players, then nothing can magically sound like less players.
> 
> If it was a single player patch, then I could see it could double/triple the patch to make it sound like multiple players perhaps.
> 
> Guess I just don't understand ... :(


Nah it doesn't work that way. It works like this; with your 16 violins patch example, if you set up the patch twice and have them both currently playing on your keyboard, then when you play two notes at the same time on your keyboard you will be getting the sound of 64 players (each patch having 32 players sounding from the two notes) With divisimate however, you could set it up so that when you play two notes, one of the patches will play the upper note and one will play the lower note, so you will have the sound of 32 players.

I don't think it would have too much practical use for your example of a 16 violins patch really, but this is how it would work. You're playing multiple patches simultaneously, and with divismate you set which patch plays which notes of the chord, rather than all patches playing all notes.


----------



## robgb

ansthenia said:


> With divisimate however, you could set it up so that when you play two notes, one of the patches will play the upper note and one will play the lower note, so you will have the sound of 32 players.


You can do this, basically, with a Kontakt multiscript called JM Multi Divisi, which I believe is available for free on this forum.


----------



## Batrawi

robgb said:


> You can do this, basically, with a Kontakt multiscript





muziksculp said:


> Divisimate gives me the same functionality. But it doesn't restrict me to Kontakt.





Batrawi said:


> with @ScoringFilm brilliant script, now I can both sketch with legato patches and accurately hear the end result of the orchestarted sections





ansthenia said:


> With divisimate however, you could set it up so that when you play two notes, one of the patches will play the upper note and one will play the lower note,





robgb said:


> You can do this, basically, with a Kontakt multiscript





muziksculp said:


> Divisimate gives me the same functionality. But it doesn't restrict me to Kontakt.





Batrawi said:


> with @ScoringFilm brilliant script, now I can both sketch with legato patches and accurately hear the end result of the orchestarted sections



We're stuck in an endless loop


----------



## muziksculp

@Batrawi ,

And you are pretty good at Copy-Pasting forum posts to have more fun while we wait for the big event.


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> @Batrawi ,
> 
> And you are pretty good at Copy-Pasting forum posts to have more fun while we wait for the big event.


haha. Remember, we have to make it to page 100 for the library to get released, so some cheating (copy/paste) wouldn't hurt


----------



## ChristianM

Batrawi said:


> haha. N'oubliez pas que nous devons aller à la page 100 pour que la bibliothèque soit publiée, donc une tricherie (copier / coller) ne ferait pas de mal


mes 2 cents:


----------



## Toecutter

Luka said:


> Well damn! I'm so impressed with all the things it can do! But is it just me or the general sound of the library is a bit synthy?


I had the same impression but won't make any hasty conclusions until I hear MSS in a musical context, preferable by someone who knows how to drive this complex engine. I was very critical of MSB until I heard a mockup here that changed my entire perception of the library. The official demos are very underwhelming and sound like they were put together in a hurry (talking about the brass, not the music) so I will wait for MSS user demos in case the official ones don't cut it again.


----------



## giwro

Toecutter said:


> I had the same impression but won't make any hasty conclusions until I hear MSS in a musical context, preferable by someone who knows how to drive this complex engine. I was very critical of MSB until I heard a mockup here that changed my entire perception of the library. The official demos are very underwhelming and sound like they were put together in a hurry (talking about the brass, not the music) so I will wait for MSS user demos in case the official ones don't cut it again.


I’m gonna weigh in here with a word of support for small sample producers re: demos, production time, release dates....

Admittedly, I don’t do orchestral samples, (I sample pipe organs) but there is a lot of the workflow that is the same - record, de-noise, edit, write code, GUI... ETC ETC

I have 2 main team members (including myself) as well as a couple other folks for specialized stuff (3D console mock-ups and esoteric code-writing).

We all have other “real” full-time jobs, so it takes time to get the work done - life interferes...

The 2 main team members make demos, but we are too close to the work, and as excited as we are about each set we do, by the time we’re done massaging tens of thousands of samples, we are ready to be done with it... and, we don’t have the time to do it if we want to get the samples done, either.

That’s the challenge of being a small producer - early on you have to work like a dog to get stuff out... and there’s not enough money in it to support oneself, let alone two households. In our case, add to the fact that pipe organ samples are admittedly a niche market 

So, I have a lot of compassion for a small outfit doing VI work... and tons of respect, since I have a good idea what kind of work it takes!


----------



## sourcefor

Wow 90 pages on a library that isn’t even out yet!


----------



## Noeticus

Wow, 90 pages on this thread, and the Legato Video isn't even out yet!


----------



## FireGS

sourcefor said:


> Wow 90 pages on a library that isn’t even out yet!


Where ya been? That's becoming super common these days.


----------



## ag75

This thread is far more exciting than the “Super” Bowl was tonight.


----------



## Russell Anderson

ag75 said:


> This thread is far more exciting than the “Super” Bowl was tonight.


What is a super bowl?


----------



## Evans

Russell Anderson said:


> What is a super bowl?


He meant "superb owl."


----------



## WinterEmerald

Wonder when we'll get another demo


----------



## Noeticus

At this point I've pressed F5 more times than I've had hot dinners.


----------



## ChristianM

When a library is eagerly awaited, we could say that it is of class F5


----------



## FireGS

ChristianM said:


> When a library is eagerly awaited, we could say that it is of class F5


Especially when it's this big, and this all-enveloping..


----------



## Casiquire

I'm sure we've all had libraries that are Alt-F4 class


----------



## jamwerks

If they're still aiming for next Monday, it must already be at NI for encoding?


----------



## Evans

jamwerks said:


> If they've still aiming for next Monday, it must already be at NI for encoding?


Well, it does say "Estimated February 15th" and not "On or by February 15th."

That would be a heck of a lot of new content coming. I imagine they wouldn't want to release without at least a couple of in context audio demos and a legato video.


----------



## WinterEmerald

We know at this stage that the library itself is actually done, which is great news, it's more all the other logistical things they want to do. You have to assume that at this stage, the 15th is possible.


----------



## muziksculp

I'm guessing they are trying to get all the support documentation, and other logistics completed this week. That must be their priority at this time, especially since they didn't release any videos over the weekend, or today so far. 

Once we see the next video released, I think we could possibly assume that they are done with all the misc. prepping work, and will be releasing more videos.

So, if a new video/s are released this week, I think we can feel comfortable that they have everything under control, and they will be able to release it on Feb. 15th.


----------



## WinterEmerald

muziksculp said:


> I'm guessing they are trying to get all the support documentation, and other logistics completed this week. That must be their priority at this time, especially since they didn't release any videos over the weekend, or today so far.
> 
> Once we see the next video released, I think we could possibly assume that they are done with all the misc. prepping work, and will be releasing more videos.
> 
> So, if a new video/s are released this week, I think we can feel comfortable that they have everything under control, and they will be able to release it on Feb. 15th.


Yeah very possible, and I think they may also just keep teasing until the last second with their final video like the day before the 15th


----------



## Ryan Fultz

I'm gonna go ahead and assume the 20th.


----------



## Evans

I think it will be Wednesday of this week, because I got a guitar for my kid and it's arriving on Wednesday. I'd have to spend the entire evening acclimating her to it, instead of focusing on MSS.

You can thank me if it actually comes out on Wednesday.


----------



## chapbot

What would you do if, hypothetically, they say on February 15th they are very sorry but they encountered some snags and Native Instruments is dragging their feet and they decided they wanted to implement a few more features... and the library unfortunately will not be out now until March?


----------



## lettucehat

I would be relieve that I have some more time to set money aside during a pandemic in order to purchase during the intro sale period... but regardless of the actual release date, I am no less eager to see/hear demos.


----------



## artomatic

chapbot said:


> What would you do if, hypothetically, they say on February 15th they are very sorry but they encountered some snags and Native Instruments is dragging their feet and they decided they wanted to implement a few more features... and the library unfortunately will not be out now until March?




I won't have any choice but to wait...
Have been since Dec. 2020! So actually, the delay gave me more time to save $.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Leave Audiobro alone! ©


----------



## Dopplereffect

I don't know about you guys, but I'm ready for a new episode of my favorite series of the last couple of weeks...


----------



## robh

I just got my U.S. stimulus cheque!


----------



## ChristianM

robh said:


> I just got my U.S. stimulus cheque!


audiobro cheque


----------



## Casiquire

robh said:


> I just got my U.S. stimulus cheque!


A US "cheque"? I'm highly suspicious 😆


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Casiquire said:


> A US "cheque"? I'm highly suspicious 😆


hmmm

canadians shouldn't be getting US stimulus checks


----------



## Evans

Immigrant with recent citizenship?


----------



## Casiquire

I didn't mean anything inappropriate of course, I'm an immigrant myself. Just joking that we're talking about American stimulus using Canadian terminology. Much love to everyone no matter their background


----------



## Batrawi




----------



## Luka

Batrawi said:


>


Almost got me 😜


----------



## Evans

Delete your account.


----------



## FireGS

Batrawi said:


>


You made me hit F5 once more than I had planned. I now despise you. Better watch it..


----------



## Zedcars

Batrawi said:


>


On the plus side at least there’s a new video to watch tonight. The legatos sound amazing.


----------



## Casiquire

Zedcars said:


> On the plus side at least there’s a new video to watch tonight. The legatos sound amazing.


----------



## ChristianM

Batrawi said:


> : triste:


2025 !


----------



## robh

Evans said:


> Immigrant with recent citizenship?





ProfoundSilence said:


> hmmm
> 
> canadians shouldn't be getting US stimulus checks





Casiquire said:


> A US "cheque"? I'm highly suspicious 😆


A dual U.S. /Canadian citizen living in Canada for the last 45 years. So, the U.S. part has been almost beaten out of me completely. 
(By the way, it’s “Zed”. 😁)
Rob


----------



## ProfoundSilence

robh said:


> A dual U.S. /Canadian citizen living in Canada for the last 45 years. So, the U.S. part has been almost beaten out of me completely.
> (By the way, it’s “Zed”. 😁)
> Rob


And this folks is why we shouldn't let the government be responsible for anything important. 

At least it'll be spent at an american company in theory?


----------



## muziksculp

I'm estimating that they have estimated a reasonably realistic estimate of the estimated release, given the estimated release will be released on the recently estimated announcement, especially if their estimated projections have been estimated properly.


----------



## Noeticus

ChristianM said:


> audiobro cheque



Wasn't this library made in the "Cheque" Republic?


----------



## Noeticus

Also, my dear AudioBro brothers, can you add Aleatoric effects to MSB at some point.

No rush.


----------



## artomatic

muziksculp said:


> I'm estimating that they have estimated a reasonably realistic estimate of the estimated release, given the estimated release will be released on the recently estimated announcement, especially if their estimated projections have been estimated properly.




I agree with your estimation of the estimated estimation!


----------



## shawnsingh

Hype level 1: excitedly talking about library announcement and prospective features of the library

Hype level 2: comparing it to similar libraries they already have

Hype level 3: asking the developers directly for updates and more information about the library before release so they can make informed purchasing decisions.

Hype level 4: evaluating the developer's PR and salesmanship practices

Hype level 5: asking developers for more features or to have the new library features ported to past libraries

Hype level 6: everyone gets Rick-rolled with a few post that fake that there's new news about the library.

Hype level 7: people artificially pumping the thread's size to reach 100 pages

----> YOU ARE HERE <----
Hype level 8: hilarious puns and digressions

Hype level 9: 20 more pages of discussion after the legato video gets released

HYPE LEVEL 10: CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE: 
- to see what happens when legato is a disappointment, refer to the "Pre-release disappointment levels" hierarchy and start at Level 3.
- to see what happens when the legato is a smash hit, refer to <INFORMATION UNAVAILABLE SCENARIO IS RARE AND UNDOCUMENTED>


----------



## maestro2be

Batrawi said:


>


That’s not nice lol!!


----------



## Casiquire

robh said:


> (By the way, it’s “Zed”. 😁)


Isn't that a Marvel villain?


----------



## LynxUK

Evans said:


> Immigrant with recent citizenship?


Dont need citizanship...just Permanent Resident Status will do


----------



## borisb2

Wow.. haven‘t checked the thread for 1-2 days. That took off quickly 😋


----------



## ag75

How many people still use LASS 2? I still love that library. No other library sounds like it. Having said that, I’m VERY excited for MSS!


----------



## Noc

ag75 said:


> How many people still use LASS 2? I still love that library. No other library sounds like it. Having said that, I’m VERY excited for MSS!


LASS 2.5 (Full + Legato Sordino) is my workhorse. Great sound quality, good variety of articulations, three-part divisi allows you to build ensembles of virtually any size, and the colors let you achieve any tone from super dry to super lush and everything in between (and the sordino-izer and sul pont. colors in particular allow you to apply those tones to any articulation – whether you want staccato sul pont. or tremolo sordino, you’re covered).

I’m super eager for MSS, but it has a very high bar to clear before it supplants LASS in my template. That said, the info and videos so far have me very hyped, so we’ll see.


----------



## novaburst

Noc said:


> I’m super eager for MSS, but it has a very high bar to clear before it supplants LASS


This


----------



## WinterEmerald

What do you guys reckon the reasoning is that they've released 6 videos fairly consistently but suddenly not releasing any? Could very much be them just waiting until the last second to max the hype but it's a bit peculiar maybe?


----------



## muziksculp

WinterEmerald said:


> What do you guys reckon the reasoning is that they've released 6 videos fairly consistently but suddenly not releasing any? Could very much be them just waiting until the last second to max the hype but it's a bit peculiar maybe?


I mentioned what I think is the reason on an earlier post. 

I will repeat it. I think they are giving priority to finish all the misc. details, documentations, or other library related details that need to be completed before it is ready for an official release. Which also means they are not working on releasing any videos until they are done with the library completion preps. 

imho. if they release a video/s before Feb. 15th, that's a sign they are ready for release on Feb. 15th. If not, maybe they will push the Estimated Release date forward again.


----------



## Raphioli

WinterEmerald said:


> What do you guys reckon the reasoning is that they've released 6 videos fairly consistently but suddenly not releasing any? Could very much be them just waiting until the last second to max the hype but it's a bit peculiar maybe?


They might just be scarred of announcing another delay (might cause havoc)


----------



## Jish

WinterEmerald said:


> What do you guys reckon the reasoning is that they've released 6 videos fairly consistently but suddenly not releasing any? Could very much be them just waiting until the last second to max the hype but it's a bit peculiar maybe?


Real talk? The moment they pushed it from late December onward, it was all over.

Heh, seriously it could be many things- however, for just 2 people those demos either way are certainly a time-killer, and honestly I too would be very interested to know the reasons it got pushed back from it's original estimated date to mid-February (I mean, we know the reasons given_,_ but who knows...). I don't think it's unreasonable at all to think late February at this point is a definite possibility, if not likelihood.

Frankly, If the library speaks for itself in distinct/meaningful ways that others currently do not, the official demos can wait until early March for me- but that's speaking only for myself, and I understand why anyone else would like to hear as much as possible before clicking 'add to cart'.


----------



## muziksculp

If MSS gets released on Feb. 15, but no legato or any other new videos/audio demos were posted, would you still buy it on Feb. 15th ? or wait for more videos ?

I would still wait until they have more videos, and audio demos.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> If MSS gets released on Feb. 15, but no legato or any other new videos/audio demos were posted, would you still buy it on Feb. 15th ? or wait for more videos ?
> 
> I would still wait until they have more videos, and audio demos.


I'd wait, personally


----------



## FKVStudio

Taking into account that, according to the Audiobro website, the introductory prices will be available 1 month from the launch date, I will wait to calmly evaluate the purchase of MSS with as much information as possible available.


----------



## Noeticus

They had me a "Aleatoric".


----------



## Eptesicus

WinterEmerald said:


> What do you guys reckon the reasoning is that they've released 6 videos fairly consistently but suddenly not releasing any? Could very much be them just waiting until the last second to max the hype but it's a bit peculiar maybe?



Bit odd, especially as they mentioned that they were doing the video everyone wanted about a week ago now. They are 10 min videos with someone doing a bit of noodling with a patch, so I wouldn't have thought they take that long to produce.

Maybe a bug came up which they had to prioritise over more videos etc.


----------



## muziksculp

Could they have encountered some Bumpy-Legatos ?


----------



## Casiquire

Eptesicus said:


> Bit odd, especially as they mentioned that they were doing the video everyone wanted about a week ago now. They are 10 min videos with someone doing a bit of noodling with a patch, so I wouldn't have thought they take that long to produce.
> 
> Maybe a bug came up which they had to prioritise over more videos etc.


"Take that long" is subjective. There are like two people working there. If they're scrambling to tie up loose ends, just a few hours of making a video knocks out almost a full day of work. I can see how that could take over a week to find the time to do it.


----------



## Batrawi

WinterEmerald said:


> What do you guys reckon the reasoning is that they've released 6 videos fairly consistently but suddenly not releasing any?








...and even if that's the case, no one can blame them. As mentioned they're basically 2 guys killing themselves.


----------



## Eptesicus

Casiquire said:


> "Take that long" is subjective. There are like two people working there. If they're scrambling to tie up loose ends, just a few hours of making a video knocks out almost a full day of work. I can see how that could take over a week to find the time to do it.



Well yes, thats what I said. If something else more pressing came up (like a bug), then they would have likely had to switch to/devote those few hours to fixing that


----------



## muziksculp

Eptesicus said:


> Well yes, thats what I said. If something else more pressing came up (like a bug), then they would have likely had to switch to/devote those few hours to fixing that


Bugs ? aren't these supposed to be fixed during their beta-testing phase ? I hope we are not still in beta phase.


----------



## Raphioli

muziksculp said:


> Bugs ? aren't these supposed to be fixed during their beta-testing phase ? I hope we are not still in beta phase.


Its pretty common for bugs to slip through beta.
Many other sample libraries release bug fixes after their release. Even Cinematic Studio series.
Besides samples libraries, Microsoft also recently patched a critical RCE bug several days ago. (OS is way more complex than a sample library of course)


----------



## muziksculp

Raphioli said:


> Its pretty common for bugs to slip through beta.
> Many other sample libraries release bug fixes after their release. Even Cinematic Studio series.
> Besides samples libraries, Microsoft also recently patched a critical RCE bug several days ago. (OS is way more complex than a sample library of course)


So, if they found an issue/bugs we most likely won't see it released on Feb. 15th. 

They mentioned on their site that they need more time to streamline the presets, add documentation, and prep the Store. they didn't mention anything about re-testing the library. 

Anyways.. all we can do is patiently wait.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Any comments from them would be appreciated, something like “all is going well” or “some problem occurs” or either “we are almost there”. That would clear every supposition on what’s going on.


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> So, if they found an issue/bugs we most likely won't see it released on Feb. 15th.
> 
> They mentioned on their site that they need more time to streamline the presets, add documentation, and prep the Store. they didn't mention anything about re-testing the library.
> 
> Anyways.. all we can do is patiently wait.


Why is everybody having this conversation LOL. The library was supposedly done back in December! If I remember correctly there was some snag with Native Instruments so they decided to add more features. These features were going to be implemented with a future update but instead they decided to release everything at once. I think that's the problem - they should have just gone ahead and released the first version of the library. They are probably finding snags with all these extra features.


----------



## Evans

yellow_lupine said:


> Any comments from them would be appreciated, something like “all is going well” or “some problem occurs” or either “we are almost there”. That would clear every supposition on what’s going on.


I feel like the "we need more time" paragraph on the web site served this purpose. What more do we need to know?


----------



## Noeticus

RELEASE MSS!!! Free it from its constraints.


----------



## Raphioli

Evans said:


> I feel like the "we need more time" paragraph on the web site served this purpose. What more do we need to know?


I think someone already said this a while back, but the problem with the announcements is them giving a specific timeframe every time they delay it.

Your obviously going to run in to unexpected things while developing something.
So it wouldn't hurt to just say "TBA" or maybe "during the 1st half of 2021".


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> Could they have encountered some Bumpy-Legatos ?


Or some encounter of the third kind. If both got abducted, no one left to inform us. 😅


----------



## muziksculp

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Or some encounter of the third kind. If both got abducted, no one left to inform us. 😅


Any UFO sightings lately ?


----------



## yellow_lupine

Evans said:


> I feel like the "we need more time" paragraph on the web site served this purpose. What more do we need to know?


Communication is all. If you remain silent for days obviously people start to think something is happening. Even a single line of text of reply is sufficient.


----------



## Casiquire

Raphioli said:


> I think someone already said this a while back, but the problem with the announcements is them giving a specific timeframe every time they delay it.
> 
> Your obviously going to run in to unexpected things while developing something.
> So it wouldn't hurt to just say "TBA" or maybe "during the 1st half of 2021".


They said "we think we can make it" though, not "guaranteed release date"



yellow_lupine said:


> Communication is all. If you remain silent for days obviously people start to think something is happening. Even a single line of text of reply is sufficient.


They're allowed to go quiet and wrap things up. They gave us a whole paragraph. 

We need to chill and let them do their thing


----------



## Raphioli

Casiquire said:


> They said "we think we can make it" though, not "guaranteed release date"


Yes I know. I've heard that several times.
Thats why I said they should give themselves a bit more breathing room.
It looks to me as if they're rushing themselves by setting a really hard deadline themselves.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Casiquire said:


> They said "we think we can make it" though, not "guaranteed release date"
> 
> 
> They're allowed to go quiet and wrap things up. They gave us a whole paragraph.
> 
> We need to chill and let them do their thing


I don’t think anyone is hot here. We are all patiently awaiting and anyone can say he suppose bugs are coming out or that would appreciate more communication.


----------



## Casiquire

Raphioli said:


> Yes I know. I've heard that several times.
> Thats why I said they should give themselves a bit more breathing room.
> It looks to me as if they're rushing themselves by setting a really hard deadline themselves.


There's no winning if you're a developer. People complain either way. Their last deadline was "sometime in January"and we turned it into January 31. They will have a hard deadline regardless.

"TBA" doesn't work either because then they get hounded by constant "i need to know because I'm holding off on purchasing BlahBlah and i don't understand why they can't just tell us if it'll be a month or a year." We just watched that play out


----------



## Raphioli

I honestly don't know why people would complain about "TBA",
but if I were the devs, I'd probably ignore the people who are complaining about "TBA" lol


----------



## WinterEmerald

Batrawi said:


> ...and even if that's the case, no one can blame them. As mentioned they're basically 2 guys killing themselves.


Wait, is it literally just two guys? I thought that was an exaggeration. That's incredible when you look at what they've produced.


----------



## FireGS

WinterEmerald said:


> Wait, is it literally just two guys? I thought that was an exaggeration. That's incredible when you look at what they've produced.


Its Andrew K and @dxmachina


----------



## WinterEmerald

FireGS said:


> Its Andrew K and @dxmachina


Rather incredible that it's just two people doing all of this.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> Any UFO sightings lately ?


Me? No, but I‘m interested in the topic.

Only wanted to find an excuse. 😄 Maybe everyone should post some until we hit page 100. Could be funny!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Too much? You never know what people find funny. Of course, I meant a major third (kind).


----------



## robh

muziksculp said:


> Bugs ? aren't these supposed to be fixed during their beta-testing phase ? I hope we are not still in beta phase.


A user reported a bug in a couple of LASS patches as recent as December 2020. After all these years, no one noticed until now!


----------



## Hanu_H

Guys. Why are you so nuts? Haven't you read anything that @dxmachina has written here? He said that there would be no videos if the library is not ready. They don't make videos on a unfinished product. So how I see it, the delay is not about a bug or has anything to do with the library but everything else involved in the release.


----------



## muziksculp

Hanu_H said:


> Guys. Why are you so nuts? Haven't you read anything that @dxmachina has written here? He said that there would be no videos if the library is not ready. They don't make videos on a unfinished product. So how I see it, the delay is not about a bug or has anything to do with the library but everything else involved in the release.


But they already released some videos.


----------



## lettucehat

yellow_lupine said:


> Communication is all. If you remain silent for days obviously people start to think something is happening. Even a single line of text of reply is sufficient.



If I’ve learned one thing from threads like these it’s that no, nothing is ever sufficient, and the “people” you refer to are just a small and vocal minority with zero patience and impulse control. And I’m saying that as someone with the MSS page on auto-refresh on its own monitor.


----------



## Hanu_H

muziksculp said:


> But they already released some videos.


Yeah. So the library has been ready since the first video was released...


----------



## ChristianM

Friends, we can imagine a lot of things, but we hurt ourselves for nothing ...


----------



## muziksculp

6 more Pages to go.


----------



## Noeticus

5 days to go!!!


----------



## muziksculp

OK.. 5 Pages to go now. So.. one page per day should get us there.


----------



## Pianolando

Hanu_H said:


> Guys. Why are you so nuts? Haven't you read anything that @dxmachina has written here? He said that there would be no videos if the library is not ready. They don't make videos on a unfinished product. So how I see it, the delay is not about a bug or has anything to do with the library but everything else involved in the release.



My guess is that the content that the released videos are about is finished, but not necessarily the whole library.


----------



## LynxUK

In all fairness, bugs can knock you side ways without warning. I only recently encountered a bug, that under specific scenerios would render the software unusable. In this case it was an incompatabilty with 11th Gen Intel chipsets and the way they processed SSL certs. Obviously a bug like that can go totally unnoticed...until they decide to purchase a brand new machine.


----------



## FireGS

Onto page 96!! >_>

EDIT: damn, too early.


----------



## artomatic

Just passin' by, killin' time!


----------



## lumcas

Couldn't we just finally merge this thread with HOOpus thread and call it a day? Would be fun, and besides, it's basically the same thing, over and over


----------



## BasariStudios

lumcas said:


> Couldn't we just finally merge this thread with HOOpus thread and call it a day? Would be fun, and besides, it's basically the same thing, over and over


That would save me a lot of time between flipping the two...i am FOR IT!


----------



## BasariStudios

LynxUK said:


> until they decide to purchase a brand new machine.


Only if they are stoopid, we buy the new Machines and Beta Test.


----------



## constaneum

Yawn.....


----------



## chemie262

it might be, that Audiobro has 23 employees:





Audiobro - Overview, News & Competitors | ZoomInfo.com


View Audiobro (audiobro.com) location in Maryland, United States , revenue, industry and description. Find related and similar companies as well as employees by title and much more.




www.zoominfo.com


----------



## tonaliszt

chemie262 said:


> it might be, that Audiobro has 23 employees:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Audiobro - Overview, News & Competitors | ZoomInfo.com
> 
> 
> View Audiobro (audiobro.com) location in Maryland, United States , revenue, industry and description. Find related and similar companies as well as employees by title and much more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.zoominfo.com


I like how the same website suggests that Orchestral Tools has but 1 employee! Somebody give that guy a raise!


----------



## Craig Sharmat

Sometimes life beyond running a library gets in the way....


----------



## Noeticus

Onward to 100 pages.


----------



## Raphioli

muziksculp said:


> 6 more Pages to go.


They actually might be finished with the library and all of the other stuff and just waiting for this thread to reach 100 pages


----------



## LynxUK

BasariStudios said:


> Only if they are stoopid, we buy the new Machines and Beta Test.


Agreed. In a perfect world that would be the case.


----------



## Hanu_H

Pianolando said:


> My guess is that the content that the released videos are about is finished, but not necessarily the whole library.


Nah. It doesn't work like that. They have to send the whole library to NI, not some parts. And when they delayed it to Feb 15th they said they need more time to work with the shop, videos, etc, not to work on the library.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I wonder about the regular legatos, how many different variations? Can it compete with CSS or surpass it?


----------



## ProfoundSilence

tonaliszt said:


> Orchestral Tools has but 1 employee! Somebody give that guy a raise!


poor tobias.

it's probably just hendrik listed as king of teldex, and poor tobias is left as target practice for unhappy customers.

Also says cinesamples is 2 employees with a revenue of 384k.


----------



## novaburst

Hanu_H said:


> Guys. Why are you so nuts? Haven't you read anything that @dxmachina has written here? He said that there would be no videos if the library is not ready. They don't make videos on a unfinished product. So how I see it, the delay is not about a bug or has anything to do with the library but everything else involved in the release.


This deserves a very classic answer........


muziksculp said:


> But they already released some videos


It doesn't get any more prodictible than that answer, it just never gets old 

Warning don't read this thread with a mouth full of coffee


----------



## Luka

I feel like I'll be so tempted to pull the trigger on Modern Scoring Strings, but I'm also curious to hear what Infinite Strings will sound like… And my wallet probably cannot handle two new string libraries.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Personally I'm happy to hold on. My bread and butter string libraries are SF's very reverberant libraries, so I've been waiting to find that small stage or dry string library for a while now, an extra week, month? All good. (Of course, SF Studio Strings Pro is just over $200 today with my discount. Eep).

Part of what I'm really hoping for is more control over portamento than SF's outings, and I hear LASS 2 had that. Plus just the controls here look designed to save hours of time.


----------



## Noeticus




----------



## rottoy

SHANE TURNER said:


> Personally I'm happy to hold on. My only bread and butter string libraries are SF's very reverberant libraries and Cinestrings, which just doesn't work for me. I've been holding off on getting a proper library in a smaller hall/room for a while now.. (Of course, SF Studio Strings Pro is just over $200 today with my discount. Eep).
> Still waiting. Part of what I'm really hoping for is more control over portamento than SF's outings, and I hear LASS 2 had that. Plus just the controls here look designed to save hours of time


Before succumbing to GAS, I would definitely suggest trying to really get to know Cinestrings Core if you are looking to work with a smaller, more dry sound. 
The "Spot" mics effectively makes the library sound like a smaller string section in a smaller room. 
I'd wager that there's nothing about MSS when it comes to bread-and-butter articulations that Cinestrings can't pull off.


----------



## Noc

New video today? 🙏🥺


----------



## jbuhler

Raphioli said:


> I think someone already said this a while back, but the problem with the announcements is them giving a specific timeframe every time they delay it.
> 
> Your obviously going to run in to unexpected things while developing something.
> So it wouldn't hurt to just say "TBA" or maybe "during the 1st half of 2021".


People would yell about that too. Anything short of a perfect library delivered on time, people will yell about, and even then they’d probably complain about why it wasn’t delivered sooner.


----------



## Evans

Luka said:


> I feel like I'll be so tempted to pull the trigger on Modern Scoring Strings, but I'm also curious to hear what Infinite Strings will sound like… And my wallet probably cannot handle two new string libraries.


This is my struggle. I don't necessarily want the auto-divisi (divisi, yes; auto-divisi, no), and even though some of the MSS tricks in its bag (such as the Runs) are super cool, it's not really a part of how I write or the jobs I pick up. It would be fun on the hobbyist side of me.

With Infinite Strings, I could see the playability a la Infinite Brass being a huge part of my end-to-end workflow. I very much love the brass (I still don't get along with the woodwind tone; I'm too picky, perhaps).


----------



## turnerofwheels

rottoy said:


> Before succumbing to GAS, I would definitely suggest trying to really get to know Cinestrings Core if you are looking to work with a smaller, more dry sound.
> The "Spot" mics effectively makes the library sound like a smaller string section in a smaller room.
> I'd wager that there's nothing about MSS when it comes to bread-and-butter articulations that Cinestrings can't pull off.



In some ways SSSP, with divisi down to 4 player sections, and spot mics on FC's is close to being a better fit for what I do. The close mic on the full section in Cinestrings doesn't really come close to that. It's also missing articulations I use regularly like sordinos, and the lack of portamento is a problem. Basically, CS was one of the first libraries I bought. It has a nice sound but it doesn't match anything I do.

Spitfire Chamber Strings is my go to, but it has issues. MSS looks like it solves most of them so far, though we will see about the legato.


----------



## Noeticus

Yes, we WILL see about them, you know......

Drum Roll.... LEGATOS!!! .... Cymbal Crash!


----------



## ansthenia

MSS looks kinda cool, but just looked at the articulations list....no cymbal crashes is pretty weak.


----------



## muziksculp

Only 4 more days to go. (If they don't post another estimated release date).


----------



## Vik

I just saw that "Mac OS X 10.12, macOS 10.13 or 10.14 (latest update)" are listed as Mac minimum requirements. Has anything been posted about Catalina or Big Sur?


----------



## BasariStudios

novaburst said:


> Warning don't read this thread with a mouth full of coffee


That warning was too late. Off to cleaning.


----------



## Zedcars




----------



## lumcas

Vik said:


> I just saw that "Mac OS X 10.12, macOS 10.13 or 10.14 (latest update)" are listed as Mac minimum requirements. Has anything been posted about Catalina or Big Sur?


That’s a question for Native Instruments.


----------



## lumcas

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I wonder about the regular legatos, how many different variations? Can it compete with CSS or surpass it?


Wanna hear facts or just a speculation?


----------



## Casiquire

The cryptic comment about waiting for the legato video, in my opinion, hints at some form of adaptive legato or various speeds. That's about as much as we know


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

lumcas said:


> Wanna hear facts or just a speculation?


Facts. Seems like we have enough speculations as it is in this thread.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> The cryptic comment about waiting for the legato video, in my opinion, hints at some form of adaptive legato or various speeds. That's about as much as we know


What cryptic comment? Where? Thanks.


----------



## chapbot

Casiquire said:


> The cryptic comment about waiting for the legato video, in my opinion, hints at some form of adaptive legato or various speeds. That's about as much as we know


I heard it was a new A.I. legato that unfortunately had a bug where it hacks into your bank account during the final mixdown. That would probably account for the delay in releasing the library.


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> What cryptic comment? Where? Thanks.



This was the comment:



axb312 said:


> Not a fan of runs done like this, wish they'd just given us a super-fast legato or something playable like that....



And this was the response:



dxmachina said:


> Having one option does not exclude the other. There's a bit more to add to the runs equation with MSS that's not yet announced.
> 
> ...
> 
> The video most are waiting for is in the works. There's still a lot more to demo after that of course.


----------



## Evans

Sneaky of Spitfire Audio to put several of their strings (or strings-heavy) libraries on sale while we wait for new MSS info, shortly after Sonokinetic's announcement, and among the SOUPUS delay.

I'm not saying it's a bad move; but it is a smart one. As impressive as MSS looks in several ways, a _very _brief sale on a well reviewed library like Chamber Strings (among others) is drawing eyes (mine, for sure).


----------



## [email protected]

Since I already collected the two Spitfire String Libraries I wanted (Studio and Chamber) in the pro versions last year, I still have money burning my pocket - so bring it on, Audiobro!


----------



## molemac

First one to post that there is a new video or post the 1st 100 pg post wins a free copy


----------



## Evans

molemac said:


> First one to post that there is a new video or post the 1st 100 pg post wins a free copy


There is a new video.

(You didn't say it had to be true.)


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

muziksculp said:


> Any UFO sightings lately ?


I correct. Yes, Noeticus. 😂

I stick to my guess, maybe it wasn‘t a major third, but a minor third. And the first demo will be called "A.B. Phone Home" or something like this.


----------



## mushanga

[email protected] said:


> Since I already collected the two Spitfire String Libraries I wanted (Studio and Chamber) in the pro versions last year, I still have money burning my pocket - so bring it on, Audiobro!


Owning both of these Spitfire string libraries, what do you feel MSS will bring to the table that the SF ones are lacking? Currently eyeing Chamber Strings or Studio Strings Pro before the sale is up, but hesitant to pull the trigger with MSS’s release just days away..

Looking for a workhorse string library to largely replace LASS 2.


----------



## Vik

lumcas said:


> That’s a question for Native Instruments.


Sure, but the reason I asked is that the way the requirements were listed at Audiobro’s site are somehow confusing. Is Kontakt 6 generally OK with Catalina?


----------



## Zedcars

Vik said:


> Sure, but the reason I asked is that the way the requirements were listed at Audiobro’s site are somehow confusing. Is Kontakt 6 generally OK with Catalina?


I have no problems using it under Catalina. That’s not to say there aren’t any, but not for me.

I miss Mojave though, as it was much less naggy (Catalina seems to need permission for so many more things it becomes annoying!)


----------



## Noeticus

What do UFOs, my avatar, and Barry Gray have in common?

Hint:





Barry Gray - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




and...


Welcome


----------



## TintoL

mushanga said:


> Owning both of these Spitfire string libraries, what do you feel MSS will bring to the table that the SF ones are lacking? Currently eyeing Chamber Strings or Studio Strings Pro before the sale is up, but hesitant to pull the trigger with MSS’s release just days away..
> 
> Looking for a workhorse string library to largely replace LASS 2.


Chamber string has the best fast legatos of the SF bunch. But, you still have to write note by note those runs. This runs builder looks better and more solid than the berlin string legacy one.

The aleatoric and detuning capabilities are quite something that you only get with the SF grid evolutions, and honestly is not the same.

And the ostinatos, look like a quicker solution than programming chamber strings and symphonic strings.

At least those are my main reasons why I would buy it.

BTW, I own chamber strings, symphonic strings and also LASS 2 FULL. Even with chamber strings which is the most capable, the ostinatos are not an easy thing to pull of. At least to me.

Studio strings, I don't own it, and can't comment on that.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I've watched all the videos and it looks good so far, but can MSS hold up to SRIIIINS? I guess we'll see... 
edited: No one took the bait huh. I thought i was gonna get a laugh out of this one.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noeticus said:


> What do UFOs, my avatar, and Barry Gray have in common?
> 
> Hint:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barry Gray - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and...
> 
> 
> Welcome


Barry Gray (or his Doppelgänger) was also abducted. 😅


----------



## [email protected]

mushanga said:


> Owning both of these Spitfire string libraries, what do you feel MSS will bring to the table that the SF ones are lacking? Currently eyeing Chamber Strings or Studio Strings Pro before the sale is up, but hesitant to pull the trigger with MSS’s release just days away..
> 
> Looking for a workhorse string library to largely replace LASS 2.


Well, my first reason is that I like to have options and I want to have enough timbres so that even if I write always orchestral stuff it does not always sound the same.

With _Modern Scoring Strings_ I hope to get a comprehensive package of symphonic strings - something which neither _Spitfire Studio Strings_ nor _Spitfire Chamber Strings_ are. Also I like that the articulations are consistent throughout all divisi groups whereas the divisi in _Sptifire Studio Strings_ have less articulations than the tutti sections.

So I would compare it more to the other big Symphonic String libraries which were lately released: VSL _Synchron Strings Pro_ and Orchestral Tool's _Berlin Symphonic Strings_.

I got the _Synchron Strings Pro_ because I trust VSL and their crucial recording and programming. _Berlin Symphonic Strings _I bought to have a more versatile string library which fits the _Berlin Series_ since the strings in the Arks are recorded with different sections at once.

_Synchron Strings Pro_ already covers the ground of a workhorse library quite well but since I often write with different runs the run tool in _Modern Scoring Strings_ looks very promising to me. I was a bit disappointed by _Berlin Symphonic Strings_ so there is still room for another string library.

But this will be the last one for a long time except if Sonokinetic bring something really interesting to the table.


----------



## mushanga

[email protected] said:


> Well, my first reason is that I like to have options and I want to have enough timbres so that even if I write always orchestral stuff it does not always sound the same.
> 
> With _Modern Scoring Strings_ I hope to get a comprehensive package of symphonic strings - something which neither _Spitfire Studio Strings_ nor _Spitfire Chamber Strings_ are. Also I like that the articulations are consistent throughout all divisi groups whereas the divisi in _Sptifire Studio Strings_ have less articulations than the tutti sections.
> 
> So I would compare it more to the other big Symphonic String libraries which were lately released: VSL _Synchron Strings Pro_ and Orchestral Tool's _Berlin Symphonic Strings_.
> 
> I got the _Synchron Strings Pro_ because I trust VSL and their crucial recording and programming. _Berlin Symphonic Strings _I bought to have a more versatile string library which fits the _Berlin Series_ since the strings in the Arks are recorded with different sections at once.
> 
> _Synchron Strings Pro_ already covers the ground of a workhorse library quite well but since I often write with different runs the run tool in _Modern Scoring Strings_ looks very promising to me. I was a bit disappointed by _Berlin Symphonic Strings_ so there is still room for another string library.
> 
> But this will be the last one for a long time except if Sonokinetic bring something really interesting to the table.


You certainly have a lot of options in your palette...thanks for the insight.

I prefer that smaller chamber sound for library and tv work, which I’m sure MSS will be capable of achieving what with its divisi.

Chamber Strings vs Studio Strings Pro is such a difficult call...


----------



## muziksculp

mushanga said:


> Chamber Strings vs Studio Strings Pro is such a difficult call...


That was very easy for me, *Chamber Strings*.

I can't believe they didn't even bother including an essential articulation like Staccatto in Studio Strings /Pro. imho. Chamber Strings is a much more useful strings library, and it sound wonderful. (just my 2 Cents).


----------



## Casiquire

I also strongly prefer the sound of Chamber Strings. It feels like a no brainer between the sound, articulations, and more mixed opinions on SSSP


----------



## Noeticus

I too love "Spitfire Chamber Strings".

And, as a special bonus it has some fantastic Aleatoric or Effects type articulations that are very, very nice!!!


----------



## Evans

Don't make me buy SCS tonight, y'all.


----------



## lettucehat

They'll be 40% off again soon enough. If you're in this thread waiting for MSS and you have any kind of budget, springing for this Spitfire move is a recipe for instant regret. You've gotten this far without SCS/SSSP/etc, you'll live to see another sale.


----------



## Noeticus

SCS is the best string library that Spitfire sells.... in my opinion.


----------



## dxmachina

Wait... are we supposed to be working on a string library over here?


----------



## Ryan Fultz

dxmachina said:


> Wait... are we supposed to be working on a string library over here?


Please don't give an update and just leave it at this comedy gold.


----------



## TintoL

Noeticus said:


> SCS is the best string library that Spitfire sells.... in my opinion.


Agree, it's their best string library to this date. 

And I think I am not even expecting Abbey road 1 legatos to be at the level of SCS.


----------



## Leo

dxmachina said:


> Wait... are we supposed to be working on a string library over here?


yep btw, what's new?


----------



## Casiquire

lettucehat said:


> They'll be 40% off again soon enough. If you're in this thread waiting for MSS and you have any kind of budget, springing for this Spitfire move is a recipe for instant regret. You've gotten this far without SCS/SSSP/etc, you'll live to see another sale.


Agreed. Skip the newest all inclusive library before hearing it for the eight year old one? Interesting strategy!


----------



## Lazer42

muziksculp said:


> That was very easy for me, *Chamber Strings*.
> 
> I can't believe they didn't even bother including an essential articulation like Staccatto in Studio Strings /Pro. imho. Chamber Strings is a much more useful strings library, and it sound wonderful. (just my 2 Cents).


This is something I am trying to figure out right now with that sale. I see the relatively mixed response to SStS and the overwhelmingly positive response to SCS, but when I watch videos of the two libraries SCS sometimes has an artificial sort of sound to me whereas SStS tends to sound much better to my ears. Unfortunately, it really is hard to judge from videos and demos sometimes. I wish I could actually try them out.


----------



## muziksculp

Lazer42 said:


> This is something I am trying to figure out right now with that sale. I see the relatively mixed response to SStS and the overwhelmingly positive response to SCS, but when I watch videos of the two libraries SCS sometimes has an artificial sort of sound to me whereas SStS tends to sound much better to my ears. Unfortunately, it really is hard to judge from videos and demos sometimes. I wish I could actually try them out.


Since this is not the topic of this thread, you might want to post your questions about these Spitfire Libraries on Spitfire related threads, or maybe you could consider AudioBro's upcoming MSS library instead.


----------



## GingerMaestro

I have SCS...even just from listening to the demos of MSS, it’s going to be a far superior library than SCS...SCS has a lot of issues that still haven’t been resolved after all these years...I’d give it a miss and wait until next week...I’m sure your patience will be worth it..


----------



## ProfoundSilence

dxmachina said:


> Wait... are we supposed to be working on a string library over here?


dont let them distract you, this was always about bassoons. 

16 bassoon ensemble lets goooo


----------



## Lazer42

GingerMaestro said:


> I have SCS...even just from listening to the demos of MSS, it’s going to be a far superior library than SCS...SCS has a lot of issues that still haven’t been resolved after all these years...I’d give it a miss and wait until next week...I’m sure your patience will be worth it..


Personally, I'm very interested in MSS. I can't say it sounds better to me than anything so far because to me shorts - which is all we have thus far heard - sound more or less just as good from one library to another. The string libraries I think sound the worst has shorts which to me don't sound all that different from the libraries I think sound the best. It's in longs and legato scripting where I think libraries differentiate themselves, so I am enthusiastically, but patiently, awaiting a showcase of MSS's longs/legatos.


----------



## Casiquire

Lazer42 said:


> Personally, I'm very interested in MSS. I can't say it sounds better to me than anything so far because to me shorts - which is all we have thus far heard - sound more or less just as good from one library to another. The string libraries I think sound the worst has shorts which to me don't sound all that different from the libraries I think sound the best. It's in longs and legato scripting where I think libraries differentiate themselves, so I am enthusiastically, but patiently, awaiting a showcase of MSS's longs/legatos.


I agree regarding shorts, but i think we've heard enough from the runs, scales, and ostinatos to understand the tone of the library as well which is important


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

lettucehat said:


> They'll be 40% off again soon enough. If you're in this thread waiting for MSS and you have any kind of budget, springing for this Spitfire move is a recipe for instant regret. You've gotten this far without SCS/SSSP/etc, you'll live to see another sale.


I was wondering wen someone was gonna point the obvious. Coincidentally, i bought L&S Chamber Strings 1 day before i heard about MSS coming out. Ironically, i don't really regret buying it cause it seem to have something special going. But i would have waited had i know about MSS.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Lazer42 said:


> Personally, I'm very interested in MSS. I can't say it sounds better to me than anything so far because to me shorts - which is all we have thus far heard - sound more or less just as good from one library to another. The string libraries I think sound the worst has shorts which to me don't sound all that different from the libraries I think sound the best. It's in longs and legato scripting where I think libraries differentiate themselves, so I am enthusiastically, but patiently, awaiting a showcase of MSS's longs/legatos.


One Chamber Strings you want to look into is Light & Sound Chamber Strings. There's a guy who made a few demos here and totally sold me. I can't guarantee it's the library that made the difference and not the guy who made/mix the demo but I'm pretty sure it has to do with the audio engineering at L&S and the various mic positions they've recorded. Just listen to his demos like this one:








Du fragsch was i möcht singe Light and Sound.mp3 | Powered by Box







app.box.com





https://vi-control.net/community/th...rison-swiss-folk-songs-set-for-strings.72961/ 

It's also on sale $150 and i strongly suspect it'll be there for a while longer.


----------



## Ryan Fultz

ProfoundSilence said:


> dont let them distract you, this was always about bassoons.
> 
> 16 bassoon ensemble lets goooo


Add 8 contrabassoons and now you’ve got a soup goin’.


----------



## Robert_G

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> . Coincidentally, i bought L&S Chamber Strings 1 day before i heard about MSS coming out. Ironically, i don't really regret buying it cause it seem to have something special going.


There is nothing to regret about buying Light & Sound Chamber Strings. I've had the library for almost a year and a half now. A hidden gem....and a steal for what they cost.


----------



## muziksculp

Two more pages to go ! 

Wow... This thread is bulking up pretty fast. at this rate we might hit 100 pages before the release of MSS, or any new videos


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Two more pages to go !
> 
> Wow... This thread is bulking up pretty fast. at this rate we might hit 100 pages before the release of MSS, or any new videos


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


>


----------



## molemac

By the time you wake up it will be 100, the advantage of being in NZ while you are all sleeping. Well there are quite a few advantages whilst I think of it: The first to see the sun rise, no Covid, Manuka honey , MSS Maori scoring strings, including violins with no strings attached and therefore no need for 
Legato.


----------



## FireGS

molemac said:


> ...the advantage of being in NZ while you are all sleeping. Well there are quite a few advantages whilst I think of it: The first to see the sun rise, no Covid, Manuka honey...


Kia ora! Love that Manuka honey!


----------



## molemac

New update available . MSS 2.0 
(even the violin is pissed off there is no legato video)


----------



## yellow_lupine

East West too has started a promotional sale till 2/22.
Hollywood strings diamond is half the price


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> That was very easy for me, *Chamber Strings*.
> 
> I can't believe they didn't even bother including an essential articulation like Staccatto in Studio Strings /Pro. imho. Chamber Strings is a much more useful strings library, and it sound wonderful. (just my 2 Cents).


That was easy for me, Studio Strings 

I have Chamber and NEVER use them - too wet!

I have a million dry staccattos from other libraries that work fine with them.


----------



## chapbot

dxmachina said:


> Wait... are we supposed to be working on a string library over here?


You better hurry up with MSS - this is devolving into a Spitfire thread real quick lol!


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> By the time you wake up it will be 100, the advantage of being in NZ while you are all sleeping. Well there are quite a few advantages whilst I think of it: The first to see the sun rise, no Covid, Manuka honey , MSS Maori scoring strings, including violins with no strings attached and therefore no need for
> Legato.







Greetings from Wellington - live (almost)


----------



## borisb2

How many more posts until we reach page 100?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

borisb2 said:


> How many more posts until we reach page 100?


here,





let 








me....





help






you.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Is this the children section of the forum? Did i miss something?


----------



## borisb2

No, we‘re all grown ups .. as far as I know


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

borisb2 said:


> No, we‘re all grown ups .. as far as I know


I said earlier i wonder about the legatos but now i wonder about the solo instrument too? And if they're as good or close to CSSS and they put as much efforts in the legatos as they did in what we've seen so far, buying it is gonna be a no brainer for me at intro/lass owner price.
Also, i was thinking, what if the legatos are so good that they allow you to play realistic arpeggios? As realistic as their ostinatos intervals. That would be too good to be true and possibly the string library to end all string library. One can dream...


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> Greetings from Wellington - live (almost)


Ha was just there yesterday on the ferry with staffpad


----------



## Raphioli

I'll help with the journey to 100


----------



## Lassi Tani

I wish they made the runs video with less reverb


----------



## constaneum

Almost there. Ahah


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> Ha was just there yesterday on the ferry with staffpad


nice .. is that the 12.9" with paperlike? .. using StaffPad 11" here

@dxmachina : too much to ask to also release a StaffPad version on sunday?


----------



## constaneum

The legato video which they're in progress of making seems to be taking up quite a long time to produce compared to previous videos. I guess it's gonna be extremely flexible but potentially complex with lots of tweakable functions to program in terms of performance? Can't wait to see.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> nice .. is that the 12.9" with paperlike? .. using StaffPad 11" here
> 
> @dxmachina : too much to ask to also release a StaffPad version on sunday?


Yes 12.9 haven’t gout paper like is it good ? +1 for MSS version


----------



## molemac

molemac said:


> Yes 12.9 haven’t gout paper like is it good ? +1 for MSS version


Sorry its now dark in NZ cant see the keyboard (haven’t got paperlike)


----------



## FireGS

100


----------



## Zedcars

The birth of Audiobro’s auto-divisi feature?...





__





Polyphonic Script ala Wallander Instruments?


Hi Everyone, Has anyone yet attempted to do a K2 script that works like the polyphonic mode in the Wallander Instruments player? For those who don't know, WIVI allows you to distribute notes in a played chord between different instruments (or combinations thereof) very intuitively...




vi-control.net





Over 12 years of refinements and hard work and now look at the features this thing is going to have. If this kind of sophisticated sample engine is possible with two guys behind it, you wonder why other much bigger companies are not leaps and bounds ahead of them. Yet it seems to be the reverse from where I’m sitting.


----------



## Raphioli

Zedcars said:


> The birth of Audiobro’s auto-divisi feature?...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polyphonic Script ala Wallander Instruments?
> 
> 
> Hi Everyone, Has anyone yet attempted to do a K2 script that works like the polyphonic mode in the Wallander Instruments player? For those who don't know, WIVI allows you to distribute notes in a played chord between different instruments (or combinations thereof) very intuitively...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over 12 years of refinements and hard work and now look at the features this thing is going to have. If this kind of sophisticated sample engine is possible with two guys behind it, you wonder why other much bigger companies are not leaps and bounds ahead of them. Yet it seems to be the reverse from where I’m sitting.


Makes me wonder how many people are involved in developing CSS.
Because the legato in that library is still one of the best.

P.S. Congrats to this thread for reaching 100


----------



## Luka

I'm on my third time watching the 6 available videos, waiting for the next ones


----------



## Zedcars

Luka said:


> I'm on my third time watching the 6 available videos, waiting for the next ones


I’d encourage you to watch the 7th. It’s the best one.


----------



## Evans

I think everyone (but me) misunderstood this post earlier:


> Wait... are we supposed to be working on a string library over here?


It's a real question, not a joke. They won the lottery and are shutting down business. Sorry, everyone.


----------



## WinterEmerald

Zedcars said:


> The birth of Audiobro’s auto-divisi feature?...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polyphonic Script ala Wallander Instruments?
> 
> 
> Hi Everyone, Has anyone yet attempted to do a K2 script that works like the polyphonic mode in the Wallander Instruments player? For those who don't know, WIVI allows you to distribute notes in a played chord between different instruments (or combinations thereof) very intuitively...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Over 12 years of refinements and hard work and now look at the features this thing is going to have. If this kind of sophisticated sample engine is possible with two guys behind it, you wonder why other much bigger companies are not leaps and bounds ahead of them. Yet it seems to be the reverse from where I’m sitting.


I think someone found info showing it was considerably more than just two people, though not a gigantic team.


----------



## Noeticus

With 100 pages you get a free Legato video, but no ice cream.


----------



## dxmachina

Now that it's hit 100 pages I can _finally_ answer the tough questions...

Yes, it's really just the two of us here. It sometimes feels like we're doing the jobs of 23 people though. Boo hoo, poor sample developers. 😿

We couldn't record _any_ bassoons for Modern Scoring Strings... they were all too busy whittling their reeds.

At this point I'm pretty, pretty, pretty sure we'll hit our Monday launch. We're leaving "Estimated" up just in case but I'll buy protective equipment before coming back here if we don't make it.


----------



## Zedcars

^That's fantastic. Thanks for all your hard work. 

Who else tried clicking on the underlined "finally" hoping it was a link to a secret video?


----------



## ansthenia

dxmachina said:


> We couldn't record _any_ bassoons for Modern Scoring Strings... they were all too busy whittling their reeds.


Tired of the excuses man, delay the library until you can get the bassoons in.


----------



## TintoL

Yeiii, we reached page 100... 

At this stage, I doubt this thing is released on Monday 15th. 

I am hitting F5 almost every hour...... I am an idiot.


----------



## Noeticus

Tell me why I don't like Mondays? (Well, I do now!!!)


----------



## Raphioli

dxmachina said:


> but I'll buy protective equipment before coming back here if we don't make it.


----------



## shawnsingh

I'm confused. I thought bassoon was an unpitched percussion instrument... So doesn't that mean it should have been part of MSB already?


----------



## PerryD

ProfoundSilence said:


> dont let them distract you, this was always about bassoons.
> 
> 16 bassoon ensemble lets goooo


Ah. I thought MSNBC (Modern Scoring Nordic Bassoon Choir) was a well kept secret. :/


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Do you think we will get a Legato Video before or after Monday ? Place your bets!


----------



## Luka

Paul Jelfs said:


> Do you think we will get a Legato Video before or after Monday ? Place your bets!


Well I certainly hope before… like… today? In a couple hours? Please?


----------



## robh

Paul Jelfs said:


> Do you think we will get a Legato Video before or after Monday ? Place your bets!


I think we will get the legato video, and maybe a few others, on release.


----------



## Zedcars

Paul Jelfs said:


> Do you think we will get a Legato Video before or after Monday ? Place your bets!


It’s in there right now, haven’t you seen it??!


----------



## robh

Zedcars said:


> It’s in there right now, haven’t you seen it??!


Never have I been more tempted than right now to put a VI-Control forum member on "ignore".


----------



## Zedcars

robh said:


> Never have I been more tempted than right now to put a VI-Control forum member on "ignore".


I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself.


----------



## Luka

We're on page 101 now. Where are the videos?


----------



## Noeticus




----------



## Zedcars

Luka said:


> We're on page 101 now. Where are the videos?


Have you tried pressing F5?


----------



## ChristianM

dxmachina said:


> Now that it's hit 100 pages I can _finally_ answer the tough questions...
> 
> Yes, it's really just the two of us here. It sometimes feels like we're doing the jobs of 23 people though. Boo hoo, poor sample developers. 😿
> 
> We couldn't record _any_ bassoons for Modern Scoring Strings... they were all too busy whittling their reeds.
> 
> At this point I'm pretty, pretty, pretty sure we'll hit our Monday launch. We're leaving "Estimated" up just in case but I'll buy protective equipment before coming back here if we don't make it.


we "love" you


----------



## ChristianM

PerryD said:


> Ah. I thought MSNBC (Modern Scoring Nordic Bassoon Choir) was a well kept secret. :/


no for bowed version


----------



## novaburst

Paul Jelfs said:


> Do you think we will get a Legato Video before or after Monday ? Place your bets!


*I was thinking more on if we can get another 100 pages before Monday. 

OOK I will start....... Those legatos are so good I can hear them without the player........ 

OOK your turn*


----------



## ChristianM

a legato that lasts so long, it's unheard of!


novaburst said:


> *I was thinking more on if we can get another 100 pages before Monday.
> 
> OOK I will start....... Those legatos are so good I can hear them without the player........
> 
> OOK your turn*


a legato that lasts so long, it's unheard of!


----------



## LHall

shawnsingh said:


> I'm confused. I thought bassoon was an unpitched percussion instrument... So doesn't that mean it should have been part of MSB already?


It's not unpitched. They get pitched into the dumpster all the time.

Just kidding folks! It's just a joke. I love bassoon.


----------



## Eptesicus

Wait, there is no bassoon included?

I'm out.


----------



## Luka

Eptesicus said:


> Wait, there is no bassoon included?


Speaking of woods, if they then release Modern Scoring Woodwinds, it'll be great to have the same runs & scales to double the strings with the same midi data…


----------



## Wlad

Luka said:


> Speaking of woods, if they then release Modern Scoring Woodwinds, it'll be great to have the same runs & scales to double the strings with the same midi data…


I don't think there will ever be Modern Scoring Woodwinds. Audiobro dudes will get filthy rich with the release of MSS, they will invest in Bitcoin and move away from sample library business.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Wlad said:


> I don't think there will ever be Modern Scoring Woodwinds. Audiobro dudes will get filthy rich with the release of MSS, they will invest in Bitcoin and move away from sample library business.


In that case they just might release a "100-piece Epic Kazoo Orchestra" library, just for the fun of it, though... (With 100-fold divisi of course)


----------



## Luka

Dopplereffect said:


> 100-piece Epic Kazoo Orchestra


----------



## Dopplereffect

Luka said:


>



I knew there was a need for it!!


----------



## Noeticus

Microtonal Polyphonic Kazoo Clusters... yes, please.


----------



## shawnsingh

Apparently the need for 100 Kazoos also exists in western classical repertoire - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_100_Kazoos

Did you know that the kazoo is used as a backup instrument by oboe players when their reeds break mid-concert?


----------



## BasariStudios

Dopplereffect said:


> In that case they just might release a "100-piece Epic Kazoo Orchestra" library, just for the fun of it, though... (With 100-fold divisi of course)


WTF would we do we Kazoo Divisi? Better off Cowbell Divisi.


----------



## Zedcars

The SonicCouture one seems not to be available any more: 






Kazoo library?


I have Tonehammer's 'ensemble' but really need a single one. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance for the help.




vi-control.net


----------



## Dopplereffect

I just realised that, in hindsight, whenever someone would be looking for actual useful information on MSS in this thread, they will have to scroll through pages and pages of idiocy... (Sorry about that, Audiobro).


----------



## Evans

It is a little goofy. The latest video hit on page 76.


----------



## Kevinside

will this library come on feb 15?...


----------



## Evans

Kevinside said:


> will this library come on feb 15?...


I think you'll find out on the 15th of February.


----------



## Zedcars

Dopplereffect said:


> I just realised that, in hindsight, whenever someone would be looking for actual useful information on MSS in this thread, they will have to scroll through pages and pages of idiocy... (Sorry about that, Audiobro).


@ag75 could maybe edit his first post to point to the page where the actual discussions about the library start once people have started using it and report back. Just an idea. (Or start a new thread)


----------



## Casiquire

Dopplereffect said:


> I just realised that, in hindsight, whenever someone would be looking for actual useful information on MSS in this thread, they will have to scroll through pages and pages of idiocy... (Sorry about that, Audiobro).


Yeah it's really devolved. They need to release something quick lol


----------



## lettucehat

Kevinside said:


> will this library come on feb 15?...


he just posted that they think they'll make the Monday release.


----------



## muziksculp

A fresh *AudioBro MSS Released !* topic on Feb. 15th, Starting at Page One, would make sense.


----------



## shawnsingh

Well sorry for my part in devolving this thread. Here's an actual meaningful thought I've had recently:

The ostinato, aleatoric, runs builder features are all very fantastic and exciting, but I'm trying to assess whether they are going to be easy or burdensome in terms of workflow. If they require opening up the Kontakt window instead of doing it straight from keyboard and MIDI editor window, then I'd be far less likely to use them. Huge kudos for making so many of the options MIDI controllable, but for me personally it's hard to manage (or even remember) how to work with more than 3 CC's on an instrument. Does anyone else have an idea how they'll try to use these features from a keyboard / midi editor without having to open the Kontakt instance that's buried deep in a template?

That said, even if there is a workflow issue for these features, I can imagine it being completely worthwhile to open a one-off non-template Kontakt instance for aleatorics, and I'm imagining that the rest of the articulations provided would still be possible to set up with a more traditional workflow.


----------



## Casiquire

shawnsingh said:


> Well sorry for my part in devolving this thread. Here's an actual meaningful thought I've had recently:
> 
> The ostinato, aleatoric, runs builder features are all very fantastic and exciting, but I'm trying to assess whether they are going to be easy or burdensome in terms of workflow. If they require opening up the Kontakt window instead of doing it straight from keyboard and MIDI editor window, then I'd be far less likely to use them. Huge kudos for making so many of the options MIDI controllable, but for me personally it's hard to manage (or even remember) how to work with more than 3 CC's on an instrument. Does anyone else have an idea how they'll try to use these features from a keyboard / midi editor without having to open the Kontakt instance that's buried deep in a template?
> 
> That said, even if there is a workflow issue for these features, I can imagine it being completely worthwhile to open a one-off non-template Kontakt instance for aleatorics, and I'm imagining that the rest of the articulations provided would still be possible to set up with a more traditional workflow.


This is why i find TouchOSC indispensable for complex libraries like this, Hein instruments, SampleModeling, etc. I don't need to remember anything, i can just hit a labeled button. 

I agree lol i never know where any keyswitches are in individual libraries


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> This is why i find TouchOSC indispensable for complex libraries like this, Hein instruments, SampleModeling, etc. I don't need to remember anything, i can just hit a labeled button.
> 
> I agree lol i never know where any keyswitches are in individual libraries


Metagrid is another good option for key-switches. I also use Lemur with Virtual Midi Ports, not OSC. 

But all of this requires prep. work, so it takes more time, but worth the effort once it is setup.


----------



## CinematiX

mushanga said:


> Owning both of these Spitfire string libraries, what do you feel MSS will bring to the table that the SF ones are lacking? Currently eyeing Chamber Strings or Studio Strings Pro before the sale is up, but hesitant to pull the trigger with MSS’s release just days away..
> 
> Looking for a workhorse string library to largely replace LASS 2.


I know there have been quite a few replies to this already but one thing hasn't been mentioned, yet:
SCS has lots of articulations but as far as I know transitions (portamento, glissando) are only provided for the normal legato/arco patch and not f.e. for sordino, sul tasto/flautando and sul pont which will be provided in the MSS Expanded legato. Correct me if I'm wrong about SCS' capabilities but for now this is a huge selling point of MSS for me.


----------



## Fry777

muziksculp said:


> A fresh *AudioBro MSS Released !* topic on Feb. 15th, Starting at Page One, would make sense.


I barely started reading your post and I clicked on that, full of excitement.



Thanks


----------



## Luka

Fry777 said:


> I barely started reading your post and I clicked on that, full of excitement.


Same hahaha


----------



## karender

shawnsingh said:


> Well sorry for my part in devolving this thread. Here's an actual meaningful thought I've had recently:
> 
> The ostinato, aleatoric, runs builder features are all very fantastic and exciting, but I'm trying to assess whether they are going to be easy or burdensome in terms of workflow. If they require opening up the Kontakt window instead of doing it straight from keyboard and MIDI editor window, then I'd be far less likely to use them. Huge kudos for making so many of the options MIDI controllable, but for me personally it's hard to manage (or even remember) how to work with more than 3 CC's on an instrument. Does anyone else have an idea how they'll try to use these features from a keyboard / midi editor without having to open the Kontakt instance that's buried deep in a template?
> 
> That said, even if there is a workflow issue for these features, I can imagine it being completely worthwhile to open a one-off non-template Kontakt instance for aleatorics, and I'm imagining that the rest of the articulations provided would still be possible to set up with a more traditional workflow.


I don't know any non-expression map way. Expression maps are the only choice for me. I'd probably go with lots of attribute articulations. Examples; UpScales16thSmooth0, DownScales16thSmooth0, UpOstinatosSmartAuto, Aleotoric1, Aleotoric2, etc.


----------



## Casiquire

CinematiX said:


> I know there have been quite a few replies to this already but one thing hasn't been mentioned, yet:
> SCS has lots of articulations but as far as I know transitions (portamento, glissando) are only provided for the normal legato/arco patch and not f.e. for sordino, sul tasto/flautando and sul pont which will be provided in the MSS Expanded legato. Correct me if I'm wrong about SCS' capabilities but for now this is a huge selling point of MSS for me.


Enormous selling point for me too. There are very few libraries that have all of those.


----------



## maestro2be

Dopplereffect said:


> I just realised that, in hindsight, whenever someone would be looking for actual useful information on MSS in this thread, they will have to scroll through pages and pages of idiocy... (Sorry about that, Audiobro).


Well since it's not an official paid release advertisement from them we are free to be idiots until they release it and put up their own paid post about it. I would think they appreciate that we're all here talking about their product in such high anticipation prior to release. Maybe the real idiocy is just not understanding that?

Jump in, the waters warm!


----------



## Robert_G

Casiquire said:


> Enormous selling point for me too. There are very few libraries that have all of those.


At this point...I'm almost for sure sold on the main library, but for the amount that I use sul tasto, sordino, etc.....I already have 8dio sordino which is gorgeous for those types of needs.
And when I do use sul pont, etc...I almost would rather it be from a solo instrument to let it stand out.
Not sure if I need the extended.....


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I can understand why people are so exited cause i haven't been exited about a string lib. release like that in a long time. BTW, what's the word on Sonokinetic up coming strings? Any date or what ever?


----------



## muziksculp

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> BTW, what's the word on Sonokinetic up coming strings? Any date or what ever?


April, 2021. It's on my radar. 

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/sonokinetic-announces-orchestral-strings.105121/


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

muziksculp said:


> April, 2021. It's on my radar.
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/sonokinetic-announces-orchestral-strings.105121/


How did i miss that? Thanks.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> How did i miss that? Thanks.


Same. Thanks.


----------



## CinematiX

Robert_G said:


> At this point...I'm almost for sure sold on the main library, but for the amount that I use sul tasto, sordino, etc.....I already have 8dio sordino which is gorgeous for those types of needs.
> And when I do use sul pont, etc...I almost would rather it be from a solo instrument to let it stand out.
> Not sure if I need the extended.....


Well, speaking of SCS again, I just bought it recently and haven't figured out its capabilities to 100%, yet (it's great but I don't have the time for music I wish to have), but I started a composition using the flautando articulation, which is wonderful, but then ended up having big trouble making it sound realistic without proper transitions. So I'm generally having a hard time using any other long articulation than legato for realistic note/chord changes, which basically happen all the time. Of course I can mask this with a cluttered arrangement with various instruments, but I'd prefer a reduced, realistic sounding one using different long articulations and not just one.
I'm just a hobbyist, so I'm seriously interested in how you guys use all these long articulations when no proper transitions are provided.  So, MSS will solve this problem at least for me I guess.


----------



## Robert_G

CinematiX said:


> Well, speaking of SCS again, I just bought it recently and haven't figured it out to 100%, yet


Spitfire libraries aren't meant to be figured out.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

So, when this legato video finally gets released, will one of you guys post a "FIRST COMMENT!!!" or something? 

This thread has turned into an ode to hysterical consumerism...


----------



## novaburst

I don't mean to be harsh or anything to that respect, I just find it quite amusing how you can find a very deep viewing of other string library's that are not the topic of the of the thread. 


It's like me going to a a studio 1 DAW thread to find out as much about Cubase as possible hmmmmm

I really don't know what the thought is behind it all or what makes people do that but hay I guess we are all having fun

I was wondering does anyone know about that patch in the new library Vista I mean I am sure to find the answer on an Audiobro thread................ I think this is the best place to find out


----------



## borisb2

novaburst said:


> I don't mean to be harsh or anything to that respect, I just find it quite amusing how you can find a very deep viewing of other string library's that are not the topic of the of the thread.


I think we should show a bit sympathy here - especially in these days. Everybody gets a bit nervous (and desperate because there are no new videos for MSS), so they make the best out of their time, while waiting.

All whats happening here is NOTHING compared to when Spitfire announces another fart and VI-C goes mental after that.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

novaburst said:


> I don't mean to be harsh or anything to that respect, I just find it quite amusing how you can find a very deep viewing of other string library's that are not the topic of the of the thread.
> 
> 
> It's like me going to a a studio 1 DAW thread to find out as much about Cubase as possible hmmmmm
> 
> I really don't know what the thought is behind it all or what makes people do that but hay I guess we are all having fun
> 
> I was wondering does anyone know about that patch in the new library Vista I mean I am sure to find the answer on an Audiobro thread................ I think this is the best place to find out


I think this only reflect the excitement around this release. They keep coming back for new info(like me) and find nothing so they make jokes. Or they're just having fun. Which can be a bit frustrating when you actually come back to find out what new and all you see is jokes. I'm in the middle on this one.


----------



## FireGS

whitewasteland said:


> This thread has turned into an ode to hysterical consumerism...


Or just having a bit of fun. Don't ruin it for the rest of us!


----------



## novaburst

It all in good spirit,............


----------



## Lazer42

I think at least part of it, especially the past few days, is people trying make a decision about other potential purchases. For example, I have 2 hours to decide whether to take advantage of the Spitfire sale or wait for MSS, and the one thing I absolutely, no way around it require in order to make that decision is the one thing that has yet to be revealed with MSS. That doesn't necessarily get resolved by discussing it here, but it does lead to the discussion taking place.


----------



## borisb2

Lazer42 said:


> For example, I have 2 hours to decide whether to take advantage of the Spitfire sale or wait for MSS


what library were you going to buy from SA?

but my answer is already: wait! .. there are always Spitfire sales


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> April, 2021. It's on my radar.
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/sonokinetic-announces-orchestral-strings.105121/


Me too!


----------



## chapbot

novaburst said:


> I don't mean to be harsh or anything to that respect, I just find it quite amusing how you can find a very deep viewing of other string library's that are not the topic of the of the thread.
> 
> 
> It's like me going to a a studio 1 DAW thread to find out as much about Cubase as possible hmmmmm
> 
> I really don't know what the thought is behind it all or what makes people do that but hay I guess we are all having fun
> 
> I was wondering does anyone know about that patch in the new library Vista I mean I am sure to find the answer on an Audiobro thread................ I think this is the best place to find out


Since Audiobro are not telling us anything we are left to conjure up information on our own. Thus, conspiracy theories are born.


----------



## chapbot

Lazer42 said:


> I think at least part of it, especially the past few days, is people trying make a decision about other potential purchases. For example, I have 2 hours to decide whether to take advantage of the Spitfire sale or wait for MSS, and the one thing I absolutely, no way around it require in order to make that decision is the one thing that has yet to be revealed with MSS. That doesn't necessarily get resolved by discussing it here, but it does lead to the discussion taking place.


Now wouldn't you hate it if, once you hear the legato video sometime in the far-flung future, you find you don't like it and wish you had taken advantage of the Spitfire sale!


----------



## jazzman7

whitewasteland said:


> So, when this legato video finally gets released, will one of you guys post a "FIRST COMMENT!!!" or something?
> 
> This thread has turned into an ode to hysterical consumerism...


ode to hysterical consumerism... could be a great title for a new piece. I copyright it!


----------



## TintoL

Regarding the question asked in the thread about NOT wanting to have the runs controlled with CCs and Ui controls instead of keyswitches.

I believe both should be covered judging only by the UI shown in the video.







I personally would like to rather have ccs rather than this gazillion of switches that take forever to map even with cubase expression map.

However, I still only have two master expression maps only. The names are standard going from slot 01 to 10. One expression map is based on key C0 and up. The other is based on midi channels so I can simply add patches in the kontakt instance.

This second option is what I find the most efficient, but doesn't work when you get a single patch with a gazilion of keyswitches.

Of course, this only works if your workflow is based on an empty shell template.

In the case of MSS, I welcome the Ccs and UI controllers.


----------



## borisb2

By the way, who is saying that legato video would be next? Maybe its Sul Tasto/Ponticello


----------



## FireGS

borisb2 said:


> By the way, who is saying that legato video would be next? Maybe its Sul Tasto/Ponticello


Considering that's part of the expanded legato library, I doubt it. There's still trills, trems, col legno, pizz (maybe?), and longs (non-legato), also.


----------



## Dopplereffect

I want to see a video about col legno first to be honest!


----------



## mojamusic

I'd like to see a video on the Bartok Pitz feature. That's my deal or no deal feature. They have to be really hard-hitting!


----------



## Dopplereffect

Or a dedicated video to the solo-viola, perhaps?


----------



## jneebz

Hi.


----------



## Zedcars

Dopplereffect said:


> I want to see a video about col legno first to be honest!


----------



## Noeticus

How about a "rest" articulation video?

This way we can check the "signal to noise ratio" of the samples.


----------



## Zedcars

Noeticus said:


> How about a "rest" articulation video?
> 
> This way we can check the "signal to noise ratio" of the samples.


Man, will you give it a rest?!

I know...really bad...yours was way better.


----------



## FireGS

Noeticus said:


> How about a "rest" articulation video?
> 
> This way we can check the "signal to noise ratio" of the samples.


anything over -90LUFS is an instant pass from me, dawg.


----------



## Noeticus

Zedcars said:


>



Lets ask "Ling Ling" what he thinks about Col Legno?


----------



## Dopplereffect

Noeticus said:


> Lets ask "Ling Ling" what he thinks about Col Legno?


Go practice (playing col legno)!!!


----------



## borisb2

jneebz said:


> Hi.


Youre too late.. we hit already the 100 pages mark.. could have used your help yesterday though


----------



## Zedcars

Noeticus said:


> Lets ask "Ling Ling" what he thinks about Col Legno?


I’ll be honest...I had to research that. I only discovered them 1/2 hour ago. Might check more of their stuff out.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

borisb2 said:


> Youre too late.. we hit already the 100 pages mark.. could have used your help yesterday though


That is the most relevant post of this thread.


----------



## Noeticus

Zedcars said:


> I’ll be honest...I had to research that. I only discovered them 1/2 hour ago. Might check more of their stuff out.


If I am correct, Ling Ling is an imaginary person slightly modeled on Lang Lang.


----------



## FireGS

borisb2 said:


> Youre too late.. we hit already the 100 pages mark.. could have used your help yesterday though


Onto 200, then?


----------



## jneebz

borisb2 said:


> Youre too late.. we hit already the 100 pages mark.. could have used your help yesterday though


Just felt obligated to contribute _something_ to this thread.


----------



## Trevor Meier

CinematiX said:


> I know there have been quite a few replies to this already but one thing hasn't been mentioned, yet:
> SCS has lots of articulations but as far as I know transitions (portamento, glissando) are only provided for the normal legato/arco patch and not f.e. for sordino, sul tasto/flautando and sul pont which will be provided in the MSS Expanded legato. Correct me if I'm wrong about SCS' capabilities but for now this is a huge selling point of MSS for me.


There are also legato patches in SCS for flautando, CS and several other articulations


----------



## ism

Berlin Strings Special bows expansion also has (very good) legatos for Sul Tasto and Sul Pont.


----------



## Casiquire

And Dimension Strings, and SampleModeling


----------



## molemac

My money is on no new videos or demos until Monday when the whole Shabang gets revealed in one go, w-arts an all. ( wonderful Articulations )


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> Onto 200, then?


prolonged banners are very efficient for that purpose


----------



## novaburst

Batrawi said:


> prolonged banners are very efficient for that purpose


Audiobro has changed their Web page wow nar I prefer the existing page even those this one not to shabby,


----------



## Luka

molemac said:


> My money is on no new videos or demos until Monday when the whole Shabang gets revealed in one go, w-arts an all. ( wonderful Articulations )


I was hoping for a video a day, the last one being on the release date


----------



## novaburst

Silenc silence in the dark as every one awaits the dawn of day what is that lurking in the shadows 

It MSS on the Prawle.......... Hahahaha


----------



## novaburst

Come on guys this silence is to sudden


----------



## Noeticus

In an effort to wake up this thread, it's time to add a bit of chocolate to your morning tea.


----------



## robh




----------



## Dopplereffect

robh said:


>


Jezus, now I'm even pressing F5 to see if the ball is going in or not!!


----------



## Raphioli

robh said:


>


To add some info to that photo,
those players with the red shirt belong to "Team Legato". 
That mark on their chest isn't a "Nike" logo, its a "Legato" symbol


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina I don’t remember if this has been mentioned before, but is there a way to disable & purge unneeded articulations from the main patches, similar to how libraries like the Cinematic Studio Series do it? I seem to recall there will be single-articulation split patches for when you only need (or want) a single articulation per track, but it’d be nice to be able to use a single patch for all the articulations you need to save on MIDI channels & Kontakt instances, whilst also freeing up RAM by disabling articulations you don’t need.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Noc said:


> @dxmachina I don’t remember if this has been mentioned before, but is there a way to disable & purge unneeded articulations from the main patches, similar to how libraries like the Cinematic Studio Series do it? I seem to recall there will be single-articulation split patches for when you only need (or want) a single articulation per track, but it’d be nice to be able to use a single patch for all the articulations you need to save on MIDI channels & Kontakt instances, whilst also freeing up RAM by disabling articulations you don’t need.


I am guessing, yes, since they use the same-exact engine/lay-out as in MSB and there it's a piece of cake...
(Don't know if they'll have a single patch per articulation, though...)


----------



## borisb2

Dopplereffect said:


> Jezus, now I'm even pressing F5 to see if the ball is going in or not!!


I think we should warm up with the thought that there will be not more videos until release... which is ok


----------



## AudioLoco

Zedcars said:


>



I love these two!


----------



## Noeticus

This Thread is digressing into pure normalcy.

I really just don't get it.


----------



## molemac

Again being in nz means it is the 15 th in only 12 hours. Probably going to have to wait for the 16 th then 😩


----------



## handshaker

probably won’t be delayed till 1st March.


----------



## dxmachina

> I don’t remember if this has been mentioned before, but is there a way to disable & purge unneeded articulations from the main patches


Yep... any articulation not set up in a switch (key or otherwise) is automatically removed from RAM (unless you are playing it).


----------



## Noeticus

Deus ex machina = God from the machine. 









Deus ex machina - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## FireGS

dxmachina said:


> Yep... any articulation not set up in a switch (key or otherwise) is automatically removed from RAM (unless you are playing it).


Erm....

....ahem...






I'm kidding, I love you. <3


----------



## Noc

dxmachina said:


> Yep... any articulation not set up in a switch (key or otherwise) is automatically removed from RAM (unless you are playing it).


Excellent, thanks.

Since the release sale lasts a month, I think I’m gonna wait until March to buy it just to go easier on the ol’ pocketbook. Will also give me a couple weeks of seeing people react to it and point out its strengths (and any potential weaknesses) as they try it out, so I’ll have an even better idea of what to expect.


----------



## Frederick

This thread sure created an appetite for MSS, but I have so many strings libraries already and I think I have everything covered already. I really shouldn't. However it did bring MSB to my attention and that one has many features I don't have yet, despite the fact I have so many other brass libraries as well. At the current price in Euros (330) I couldn't resist.


----------



## Luka

Frederick said:


> However it did bring MSB to my attention and that one has many features I don't have yet


What features are you talking about?


----------



## Frederick

Luka said:


> What features are you talking about?


The ones that come to mind are:

1) Solo instruments combined into sections. I only have the special edition of VSL Dimension Brass, so that lacks many articulations. Berlin brass gives you also four trumpets - not sure if that is designed to make your own ensemble - but I don't have it.
2) I don't think I have a brass library that has both stopped and muted horns.
3) The intuition series patches that combine modeling with samples. I have no modeled or hybrid instruments. 

There may be more unique features. 

(I have EWHO Brass Diamond, CineSamples Brass (inc Pro), SSB, SStB, BBCSO, Century Brass complete, BBO brass, VSL S.E. 6, maybe more)


----------



## Noeticus

Even if you already own ALL of the String libraries out there, you still have to get MSS because otherwise how do you prove you are addicted to String libraries.


----------



## Willowtree

Noeticus said:


> Even if you already own ALL of the String libraries out there, you still have to get MSS because otherwise how do you prove you are addicted to String libraries.


This is me. So me. It's on my "to buy" list simply because if I don't get it ... I'm not whole as a person.


----------



## Casiquire

Frederick said:


> The ones that come to mind are:
> 
> 1) Solo instruments combined into sections. I only have the special edition of VSL Dimension Brass, so that lacks many articulations. Berlin brass gives you also four trumpets - not sure if that is designed to make your own ensemble - but I don't have it.
> 2) I don't think I have a brass library that has both stopped and muted horns.
> 3) The intuition series patches that combine modeling with samples. I have no modeled or hybrid instruments.
> 
> There may be more unique features.
> 
> (I have EWHO Brass Diamond, CineSamples Brass (inc Pro), SSB, SStB, BBCSO, Century Brass complete, BBO brass, VSL S.E. 6, maybe more)


Berlin Brass combines into a section but also has recorded sections. There's a fairly inexpensive expansion for mutes and it's extra-comprehensive, true-recorded mutes.

Chris Hein also has individual brass players to combine into ensembles and i was actually impressed with Hein brass. I believe the mutes are modeled though.

Each of the three libraries is in its own little universe though. Just look at MSB's list of patch features about halfway down. The library is DEEP


----------



## GingerMaestro

Is there a sweepstake for who can guess the time that the library will be released ?

Also who will actually manage to download the library as we are all going to crash their server....

My predictions are around 2pm Pacific Time....


----------



## Zedcars

GingerMaestro said:


> Is there a sweepstake for who can guess the time that the library will be released ?
> 
> Also who will actually manage to download the library as we are all going to crash their server....
> 
> My predictions are around 2pm Pacific Time....


Could be...but...


----------



## Zedcars

Whatever time it is, it’s bound to be when I’m asleep. 😴


----------



## Noeticus

One day to go............!!!


----------



## Dopplereffect

I think we can expect at least 4 new video's soon (probably at the time of release).


----------



## Dopplereffect




----------



## chapbot

Dopplereffect said:


>


Excellent detective work! I really doubted the library would be released tomorrow but after this info I'm not so sure.


----------



## FireGS

Dopplereffect said:


>


Nice find, bruv! That'd explain the radio silence on the vid releases.


----------



## Noeticus

Ahhhhhhh... Agent Doppler, can I have the password for the legato video?


----------



## AudioLoco

Noeticus said:


> Ahhhhhhh... Agent Doppler, can I have the password for the legato video?


----------



## Eptesicus

Noeticus said:


> Ahhhhhhh... Agent Doppler, can I have the password for the legato video?




Yes it is:

OH****It5buMpy


----------



## Noeticus

Damn, that worked!


----------



## Noc

Dopplereffect said:


>


😩 But I wanna see ’em _noooow_


----------



## Zedcars

I’m not sure I’m going to rush into buying this on release. Makes more sense to wait until I’ve heard a few more demos and read others’ views. Plus the servers usually jam up at first so there’s that. I think I’d mainly like to hear how this blends with other libraries and how it works with faster lines rather than the slow stuff which is usually easier to create. I’m looking forward to hearing Guy Michelmore and Daniel James et al talk about it. Should be interesting.


----------



## muziksculp

I'm ready to watch a 6+ hrs. D.James walkthrough/playthrough. video next week.


----------



## ChristianM

5 new videos in waiting 
(private)


----------



## FireGS

ChristianM said:


> 5 new videos in waiting
> (private)


Whoa baby...


----------



## ChristianM

FireGS said:


> Whoa baby...


no !


----------



## Hanu_H

ChristianM said:


> 5 new videos in waiting
> (private)


There might be some demo walkthroughs included in the videos. So maybe 2-3 videos and 2-3 demos?


----------



## FireGS

Juuuust saying, but its the 15th here in Switzerland.


----------



## Luka

FireGS said:


> Juuuust saying, but its the 15th here in Switzerland.


You live in Switzerland! 😍😭


----------



## FireGS

Luka said:


> You live in Switzerland! 😍😭


Not a bad place to be. Got me out of Pennsylvania. 

Fun fact, Andrew Keresztes from AudioBro grew up in Geneva :D


----------



## Luka

Zedcars said:


> I’m looking forward to hearing Guy Michelmore and Daniel James et al talk about it. Should be interesting.


Maybe Dirk Ehlert will do a live review too accompanied by the usual giveaway? 😅


----------



## FireGS

So, I don't know if this has been brought up before, but the MSS page basically omits any mention of the "legato" system, which is interesting, but based on the fact that I found the legatos share the same attack types as the sustains, the following is pretty interesting.






EDIT: Proof of claim, if anyone missed it:


----------



## Batrawi

I really hope for a review by @Cory Pelizzari before the intro price sale ends. I think this will be unlikely though as it might conflict with his machine upgrade plans/budget at the time being. Besides, I doubt I can resist the temptation to insta-buy in the meantime...


----------



## FireGS

Batrawi said:


> I really hope for a review by @Cory Pelizzari before the intro price sale ends. I think this will be unlikely though as it might conflict with his machine upgrade plans/budget at the time being. Besides, I doubt I can resist the temptation to insta-buy in the meantime...


He said very specifically on Youtube community that he wouldn't be unless given an NFR copy, which was unlikey to happen in his words.


----------



## turnerofwheels

FireGS said:


> He said very specifically on Youtube community that he wouldn't be unless given an NFR copy, which was unlikey to happen in his words.


A missed opportunity to hear his opening quips on reviewing yet another string library? Say it ain't so!


----------



## molemac

FireGS said:


> Juuuust saying, but its the 15th here in Switzerland.


it’s almost the 16 th here and deathly silence .I have a bad feeling...


----------



## shawnsingh

FireGS said:


> So, I don't know if this has been brought up before, but the MSS page basically omits any mention of the "legato" system, which is interesting, but based on the fact that I found the legatos share the same attack types as the sustains, the following is pretty interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Proof of claim, if anyone missed it:


Yes this is one thing that always disappointed me with strings libraries, excited to see this.


----------



## prodigalson

I’m in Australia and it’s still 1pm on the 15th. They’ll be on PST. Relax.


----------



## coprhead6

PST night watch reporting in; still nothing. 
I’ll be diligently F5-ing for at least the next few hours.


----------



## shawnsingh

Dopplereffect said:


> I think we can expect at least 4 new video's soon (probably at the time of release).


There now seems to be 11 items on the playlist... but nothing new is viewable yet.

(EDIT - already noticed earlier in the thread, whoops)


----------



## Zedcars

coprhead6 said:


> PST night watch reporting in; still nothing.
> I’ll be diligently F5-ing for at least the next few hours.


----------



## ChristianM

molemac said:


> it’s almost the 16 th here and deathly silence .I have a bad feeling...


No, only 15 here, end of morning


----------



## Vik

They're still sleeping in LA. Save your F5 buttons, guys.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Vik said:


> They're still sleeping in LA. Save your F5 buttons, guys.


By the way, nice avatar!


----------



## amadeus1

Looking forward to today's release, or will we be strung along until March 1?, no pun intended


----------



## Noeticus

It's "Control F5" for those who doubt the power of F5.


----------



## BasariStudios

Its only 7am in Cali.


----------



## FireGS

BasariStudios said:


> Its only 7am in Cali.


And there's 16:59:59 to go in the 15th..


----------



## Batrawi

by the way @amadeus1 are you planning to get it & review within the intro sale period?


----------



## Vik

amadeus1 said:


> Looking forward to today's release, or will we be strung along until March 1?, no pun intended


My feeling is that there's no need to be high strung about this.  It will probably be released today, most likely become a library in in the same league as Berlin Strings, CSS and SCS – and, like these others, be seen as a library with some benefits the others don't have.


----------



## Noeticus

I am not high strung!
I am not high strung!
I am not high strung!
I am not high strung!
I am not high strung!


----------



## muziksculp

I'm guessing AudioBro will post the official release, and availability of MSS in the Commercial Section of this forum, in addition to on their site. Maybe 9:00 AM Pacific time. Which is a few minutes away.


----------



## TintoL

Absolutely nothing in the website yet...

Quite a mystery.......


----------



## Casiquire

TintoL said:


> Absolutely nothing in the website yet...
> 
> Quite a mystery.......


It's not even nine am there 😆 I'll at least give them until the afternoon before i start asking questions


----------



## coprhead6

I haven’t even brewed my coffee yet! 
Also, it’s a federal holiday in the US today...


----------



## amadeus1

coprhead6 said:


> I haven’t even brewed my coffee yet!
> Also, it’s a federal holiday in the US today...


They didn't say anything about Federal Holidays in their Feb 15 deadline, lol


----------



## amadeus1

Casiquire said:


> It's not even nine am there 😆 I'll at least give them until the afternoon before i start asking questions


9s fair..


----------



## amadeus1

Maybe 5 p.m. today for the 23 employees to finish?


----------



## amadeus1

Batrawi said:


> by the way @amadeus1 are you planning to get it & review within the intro sale period?


Depends on how long the delay is. Also want to see some videos on the legato.


----------



## Casiquire

amadeus1 said:


> Depends on how long the delay is. Also want to see some videos on the legato.


How long the WHAT is?!


----------



## TintoL

coprhead6 said:


> I haven’t even brewed my coffee yet!
> Also, it’s a federal holiday in the US today...


It's also a holiday here in Canada...... But, like you said, they didn't say anything about that in their website.. haha


----------



## TintoL

"F5" in hesteroids HERE WE GO.......


----------



## Luka

TintoL said:


> It's also a holiday here in Canada


Uh? What holiday is that? In Québec we don't seem to have it haha


----------



## Casiquire

First, Canadians get our stimulus checks, now they get our President's Day too?! The Canadians are taking over!


----------



## amadeus1

Casiquire said:


> How long the WHAT is?!


The delay on the supposed release of Feb 15, today!


----------



## amadeus1

TintoL said:


> "F5" in hesteroids HERE WE GO.......


I'm not getting the F5 reference. What operating software and program?


----------



## maestro2be

amadeus1 said:


> Depends on how long the delay is. Also want to see some videos on the legato.





amadeus1 said:


> I'm not getting the F5 reference. What operating software and program?


It’s now been changed to ALT+F4.


----------



## FireGS

amadeus1 said:


> I'm not getting the F5 reference. What operating software and program?


Browsers. All of them.


----------



## amadeus1

maestro2be said:


> It’s now been changed to ALT+F4.


Again, what os and what program?


----------



## Trevor Meier

amadeus1 said:


> Again, what os and what program?


Windows-based browsers primarily


----------



## muziksculp

Maybe they are editing their website, to put MSS on the front main product page of their site, for the big announcement today.


----------



## Luka

Personally it's Cmd+R to refresh a page…


----------



## Zedcars

Where are they based? LA?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Forget F5 I'm sending F16s unless we hear those legatos right now!


----------



## TintoL

Luka said:


> Uh? What holiday is that? In Québec we don't seem to have it haha


Wow, I am the worst. I didn't know the "Family day" is an Ontario ONLY holiday. 

Sorry Luka...


----------



## robh

Casiquire said:


> The Canadians are taking over!


Yep. Then you all will be sorry.


----------



## TintoL

amadeus1 said:


> I'm not getting the F5 reference. What operating software and program?


"F5" is the "refresh page" hotkey in Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge.


----------



## Luka

TintoL said:


> Wow, I am the worst. I didn't know the "Family day" is an Ontario ONLY holiday.
> 
> Sorry Luka...


I guess we don't care about family here then 😆


----------



## Noeticus

F5 is a refresh command in Windows.


----------



## amadeus1

Noeticus said:


> F5 is a refresh command in Windows.


It's cmd R on the mac. Switched to macs about 10 years ago from PCs. Used and built PCs for years before that. Saved myself a lot of frustration with windows continual updates after switching.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Luka said:


> I guess we don't care about family here then 😆


Who needs family when you have the internet.


----------



## Luka

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Who needs family when you have the internet.


Who needs family when you have MSS… oh wait.


----------



## mohsohsenshi

109pages already...
I've broken my F5.


----------



## artomatic

Uhmm... What are we waiting for again?


----------



## FireGS

artomatic said:


> Uhmm... What are we waiting for again?


Sanity.


----------



## Zedcars

mohsohsenshi said:


> 109pages already...
> I've broken my F5.


Don't worry, there's a new one bundled with MSS.


----------



## jneebz

WAIT...This isn’t the CSW thread???


----------



## muziksculp

I think AudioBro is testing our patience


----------



## Zedcars

If this was the old days, we’d all be camped out overnight waiting in line for the store to open to buy our sealed box of 48 DVDs.


----------



## smoothielova

Zedcars said:


> If this was the old days, we’d all be camped out overnight waiting in line for the store to open to buy our sealed box of 48 DVDs.


I kind of miss those days at times.


----------



## Zedcars

I was bored, so made the MSS Aleatoric video demo even more creepy...


----------



## Noeticus

Zedcars said:


> I was bored, so made the MSS Aleatoric video demo even more creepy...



This reminds me of...


----------



## Wlad

8 more minutes!


----------



## Seycara

Threads like these confirm my theory that the vast majority of this forum is made up of vst consumers instead of working composers.


----------



## Fidelity

Seycara said:


> Threads like these confirm my theory that the vast majority of this forum is made up of vst consumers instead of working composers.


Your comment confirms that you're an insecure troll


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

MODERATOR COMMENT:

Hey kids, please don't fight.


----------



## amorphosynthesis




----------



## Luka

Wlad said:


> 8 more minutes!


Better luck next time!


----------



## Fidelity

Luka said:


> Better luck next time!


Next time being another 8 minutes?


----------



## TintoL

Seycara said:


> Threads like these confirm my theory that the vast majority of this forum is made up of vst consumers instead of working composers.


If you are a full time working composer, you should be lucky we "vst consumers" exist. Because we are basically keeping the industry moving as a business. There is a limit to available full time composers to keep selling new libraries to.


----------



## WinterEmerald

Seycara said:


> Threads like these confirm my theory that the vast majority of this forum is made up of vst consumers instead of working composers.


Besides the fact it doesn't even matter whether the people buying these libraries are professionals or hobbyists, all working composers are VST consumers...? Not all project budgets even allow live recordings and let's say, for argument's sake, your project's budget does, you'll still need solid midi examples for the edit and to showcase your ideas to your director(s)/client(s)/producer(s). 

I must agree with someone else here that you're just trying to troll, because there's no way you genuinely think what you said is logical.


----------



## Trevor Meier

I reaaaaaally love vi-control's ignore function... 👍


----------



## lettucehat

sorry not all of us are fancy enough to work at a gen-u-ine sOuNdTrAcK sTuDiO


----------



## mohsohsenshi

Zedcars said:


> Don't worry, there's a new one bundled with MSS.


I'm no Audiobro existent customer nor a Lass 2.5 full owner, that results in a $99 cost in price for a F5!
I can buy it somewhere else , I don't know , maybe at Pacific mall or Amazon for $5.
But wait...Why the heck I concern about F5?!
Audiobro! Be a man ! Do the right thing!


----------



## Ryan Fultz

amadeus1 said:


> It's cmd R on the mac. Switched to macs about 10 years ago from PCs. Used and built PCs for years before that. Saved myself a lot of frustration with windows continual updates after switching.


Its just the internet slang meaning refreshing a page a ton in anticipation. 

The actual command function isn't important, if you start staying "cmd+R" a lot of people will just be confused. 

Similarly, giving a website a "hug of death" means you crashing the site from everyone repeatedly visiting and refreshing the page.


----------



## muziksculp

I wonder what's delaying the release now ?


----------



## Zedcars

Off Topic: Just watching DJ review Amazonic AMA and it’s funny AF. Some of the sounds are really unusual and sound amazing. But some are just really funny.

Sorry for the irrelevancy...


----------



## Zedcars

Ryan Fultz said:


> Similarly, giving a website a "hug of death" means you crashing the site from everyone repeatedly visiting and refreshing the page.


Wow, didn’t know about that last bit. Maybe I better stop refreshing. It does seem slower than normal so maybe that’s why.


----------



## BasariStudios

So...when will be Opus releasd?


----------



## Zedcars

If they’re in LA I guess it could be anytime within the next 8 hours or so. I feel like if it’s delayed further it won’t be much longer though.


----------



## Wlad

BasariStudios said:


> So...when will be Opus releasd?


When EW sees how good MSS is, OPUS will probably be released this time next year.


----------



## robh




----------



## borisb2

Exciting news

But in what time zone it could possibly still be the 15th?


----------



## artomatic

Well, there you have it! 
Today's _the_ day!!


----------



## lettucehat

borisb2 said:


> Exciting news
> 
> But in what time zone it could possibly still be the 15th?


The one where Audiobro and many customers are, PST.


----------



## Noeticus

It's D-Day for MSS. I just wish it was H-Hour.


----------



## borisb2

Oh dang


lettucehat said:


> The one where Audiobro and many customers are, PST.


Oh dang, of course.. forgot the americas..

Here in NZ its already 16th .. we’re too far ahead


----------



## maestro2be

Maybe Audiobro has a time machine and they will send us all back to the beginning of this thread?


----------



## artomatic

borisb2 said:


> Oh dang
> Oh dang, of course.. forgot the americas..
> 
> Here in NZ its already 16th .. we’re too far ahead




What's it like to live in the future?!


----------



## Dopplereffect

borisb2 said:


> Oh dang
> Oh dang, of course.. forgot the americas..
> 
> Here in NZ its already 16th .. we’re too far ahead


IN LA it's still the 15th for about 8 hours 

EDIT: 10 hours actually...


----------



## AndyP

Perhaps someone has also instead of pressing F5 in the console accidentally enter rm * -r. However, this could massively delay the release ...

Please do not do!!!!!


----------



## Zedcars

maestro2be said:


> Maybe Audiobro has a time machine and they will send us all back to the beginning of this thread?


Please don't make me read all that again! 🙏😟


----------



## BL

https://audiobro.com/mss-pricing-tests/
Guess the password?


----------



## Dopplereffect

This just appeared on the forum.
It's happening people!


----------



## Luka

Dopplereffect said:


> This just appeared on the forum.
> It's happening people!


Where is that?


----------



## Zedcars

Luka said:


> Where is that?







__





AudioBro.com • Login






audiobro.com


----------



## Zedcars

But...it's my bedtime now.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Luka said:


> Where is that?


On their forum (for which you need to register)


----------



## Luka

Zedcars said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AudioBro.com • Login
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> audiobro.com


Oh I see! Never bought an Audiobro product before so I can't register for now… Might change in a couple days


----------



## filipjonathan

Alright, I'm going to bed. Whoever gets it first, post some demos (legatos, runs, the usual stuff) and I'll see you guys tomorrow 😘


----------



## Fidelity

I know I have debts to pay but if there's an intro price with an upgrade path from LASS lite, I don't think I can resist...

Dangit, audiobro, hurry up and take my money!


----------



## Ty Gary

robh said:


>


Oh hey, it's me. Hi, me.
And sorry Andrew, I couldn't help myself.


----------



## chapbot

robh said:


>


I simultaneously felt faint and then noticed I had soiled myself.


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> I wonder what's delaying the release now ?


They will try one of Audio Imperias tricks - Areia didn't show up on their website for me until something like 11:50pm day of release lol


----------



## Marlon Brown

borisb2 said:


> Exciting news
> 
> But in what time zone it could possibly still be t





borisb2 said:


> Exciting news
> 
> But in what time zone it could possibly still be the 15th?


In Toronto... Eastern Standard Time.....


----------



## muziksculp

It's already Feb. 16th in some parts of the globe.


----------



## prodigalson

muziksculp said:


> It's already Feb. 16th in some parts of the globe.


Not the part of the globe that counts


----------



## Luka

muziksculp said:


> It's already Feb. 16th in some parts of the globe.


I think in Australia it'll be the 17th soon


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> It's already Feb. 16th in some parts of the globe.


It's only 11:48am on the Midway Islands.


----------



## Marlon Brown

Luka said:


> I think in Australia it'll be the 17th soon


Damn how many hours apart is Australia from the rest of the world?


----------



## Luka

Marlon Brown said:


> Damn how many hours apart is Australia from the rest of the world?


New Zealand is +18hrs from where I am (Montreal). That's 21 hours difference with LA! 😮


----------



## muziksculp

I'm still happy if they release it later today, at least I will not have to bother looking for a new series to watch on TV. The new videos will keep me very entertained, especially the Legato Episode.


----------



## Leo

in 6 minutes there will be a new day in middle Europe...


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> I'm still happy if they release it later today, at least I will not have to bother looking for a new series to watch on TV. The new videos will keep me very entertained, especially the Legato Episode.


Honestly, if they were released at the cinema I’d probably pay to go see them on the big screen.


----------



## davidanthony

Anywhere on Earth - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Hey , I built my self a Time Machine and am from the Future. 

But no one cares about that development . The one that matters is - 

They did release MSS on the 15 th of Feb , as promised. In 2023.........


----------



## muziksculp

They are busy, they added a MSS section to their forum.

Looks like they are making sure everything is ready before the big launch today.


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> They are busy, they added a MSS section to their forum.


Deja vous


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> They are busy, they added a MSS section to their forum.
> 
> Looks like they are making sure everything is ready before the big launch today.


Something else to refresh now lol


----------



## mcalis

Zedcars said:


> Deja vous


I have that whenever muziksculp posts xD

No offense @muziksculp, all in good fun


----------



## muziksculp

mcalis said:


> I have that whenever muziksculp posts xD
> 
> No offense @muziksculp, all in good fun


Haha... Sorry, didn't mean to cause any dejavu feelings here. I didn't see that someone else posted this earlier on the thread.


----------



## Zedcars

I think I’m going turn in now. I’ll take a look tomorrow and read through the next 15 pages. Hopefully there’ll be some early impressions. 🙂


----------



## mcalis

muziksculp said:


> Haha... Sorry, didn't mean to cause any dejavu feelings here. I didn't see that someone else posted this earlier on the thread.


No worries at all.


Random fact of the day (you might as well learn something after 113 pages): there is also Deja reve, which is a phenomenon where a person believes to have dreamt something before. 

Might be applicable here too


----------



## molemac

artomatic said:


> What's it like to live in the future?!


Normally it’s a good thing but in this instance it’s a disaster as we are now effectively living in the past. MSS will be released on the 17th so we are 2 days behind you. Had God created MSS we would have been the first to get it but there is no such thing as Divine legato, not yet anyway ......


----------



## borisb2

artomatic said:


> What's it like to live in the future?!


Already downloading 😋


----------



## Evans

It's _possible _that they'll adjust the prices of other libraries back above "Black Friday" prices, so if you were thinking of jumping on MSB or Genesis, well, jump on it!


----------



## ChristianM

Zedcars said:


> Deja vous


Now, You can type F5 or CMD-R on their forum


----------



## BasariStudios

Are we getting the 4K version too?


----------



## chapbot

POLL: Who is getting extended legato? I ain't because I don't ever use sordino


----------



## Robert_G

chapbot said:


> POLL: Who is getting extended legato? I ain't because I don't ever use sordino


Agree. I think the main lib will do the trick. 8Dio Century Sordino is very good....I'll keep using that.


----------



## Noc

chapbot said:


> POLL: Who is getting extended legato? I ain't because I don't ever use sordino


Getting the full MSS+EL bundle. Only fitting, since I also got LASS+LS. Mostly just so I won’t be limited when I want, well, sordino legato and so on.


----------



## Casiquire

chapbot said:


> POLL: Who is getting extended legato? I ain't because I don't ever use sordino


There's actually a chance (depending on the demos) that i start off with ONLY the extended legato. It fills a much bigger gap than the standard library and will help me decide what the rest can do for me


----------



## chapbot

Noc said:


> Getting the full MSS+EL bundle. Only fitting, since I also got LASS+LS. Mostly just so I won’t be limited when I want, well, sordino legato and so on.


Oh no! What happens if I love the sordino and decide I wish I had gotten the legato extension??


----------



## muziksculp

chapbot said:


> POLL: Who is getting extended legato? I ain't because I don't ever use sordino


But Sordino Strings are so wonderful, and mysterious sounding. 

imho. You are missing a lot by not using Sordino Strings  You can also mix Sordino, with Normal Strings to get a more sophisticated sounding strings ensemble sound.


----------



## Casiquire

chapbot said:


> Oh no! What happens if I love the sordino and decide I wish I had gotten the legato extension??


The LASS sordinos are unbelievably, painfully beautiful in my opinion so... Good luck!


----------



## muziksculp

It looks like AudioBro want to keep us up late tonight.


----------



## jaketanner

Are there no legato demos? I see everything but.


----------



## mcalis

You missed them @jaketanner , they are a couple pages back, but I am not sure which one out of the 114. I guess you'll have to go through them all.


Good luck!


----------



## Noc

jaketanner said:


> Are there no legato demos? I see everything but.


Not yet – the MSS YouTube playlist currently lists five private videos, so chances are the remaining feature walkthroughs, including legato, will be posted publicly once the library is released.


----------



## jaketanner

mcalis said:


> You missed them @jaketanner , they are a couple pages back, but I am not sure which one out of the 114. I guess you'll have to go through them all.
> 
> 
> Good luck!


ok will do. thanks.


----------



## Noeticus

"I want my MTV"... ah, I mean, I want my MSS.

We are in "Dire Straits".... if MSS is not released soon.


----------



## turnerofwheels

I suppose you'd have to get the full package in one shot for the Sordino legatos to be discounted to basically an extra $150 on top of the base MSS? As opposed to getting MSS now and the extended legatos in a few weeks or something.
Definitely thinking about it.


----------



## feck

It’s out.


----------



## chapbot

jaketanner said:


> Are there no legato demos? I see everything but.


Bruh u late to da party 🤣


----------



## turnerofwheels

feck said:


> It’s out.


The home page says it's out but the string page isn't quite updated yet... getting there!


----------



## Noc

feck said:


> It’s out.


So soon, Audiobro’s only had time to update the main page but not the MSS page itself.


----------



## lettucehat

Videos still private too.


----------



## PerryD

Zedcars said:


> Where are they based? LA?





feck said:


> It’s out.


Well put it back in. We're waiting for strings here.


----------



## BasariStudios

Dear God!!! And we wonder why Aliens will never visit us.
Jut read this thread and the Hoopus one.


----------



## Noeticus

Oh, my God it's happening!!!


----------



## chapbot

SHANE TURNER said:


> The home page says it's out but the string page isn't quite updated yet... getting there!


Baby steps!!!!!


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Noeticus

The Gods of the Machine are bringing the sacred MSS!!!


----------



## artomatic

Teased to the last minute(s)!!


----------



## Noeticus

This music works VERY well for the MSS gradual release...

Ligeti: Requiem II Kyrie​


----------



## BasariStudios

Ok...that was it...now what?
It will be the same with Hoopus.


----------



## Kony

Casiquire said:


> The LASS sordinos are unbelievably, painfully beautiful in my opinion so... Good luck!


Do you mean the dedicated Sordino library or the sordino artic in LASS 2.5?


----------



## turnerofwheels

BasariStudios said:


> Dear God!!! And we wonder why Aliens will never visit us.
> Jut read this thread and the Hoopus one.


Someday a linguist will write a term paper on how sample library nerds communicated in acronyms nearly incomprehensible to outsiders like CS, CSS, CSSS, MSS and Hoopus.


----------



## ned3000

What does that mean, it's "out"? Still can't buy it. Also now I'm wondering how I'm going to prove that I have full LASS that I bought like 30 years ago when it came out.


----------



## Noeticus

ned3000 said:


> What does that mean, it's "out"? Still can't buy it. Also now I'm wondering how I'm going to prove that I have full LASS that I bought like 30 years ago when it came out.


The AudioBro Machine Gods will help you.


----------



## chapbot

ned3000 said:


> What does that mean, it's "out"? Still can't buy it. Also now I'm wondering how I'm going to prove that I have full LASS that I bought like 30 years ago when it came out.


That's hilarious because I literally was just thinking the same thing LOL, I think I was on AOL when I first bought it


----------



## BasariStudios

SHANE TURNER said:


> Someday a linguist will write a term paper on how sample library nerds communicated in acronyms nearly incomprehensible to outsiders like CS, CSS, CSSS, MSS and Hoopus.


I have yet to figure out all the ABC BBC CSS XYZ ASS SBC CNN NBC FOX ABD Abbreviations mean.


----------



## Luka

Noeticus said:


> Oh, my God it's happening!!!





muziksculp said:


>


----------



## Casiquire

Kony said:


> Do you mean the dedicated Sordino library or the sordino artic in LASS 2.5?


Both, despite the different timbre between the two.



Here we go!


----------



## Kevperry777

It’s as if the entire Audiobro website is on dial-up trying to refresh.


----------



## Casiquire

Kevperry777 said:


> It’s as if the entire Audiobro website is on dial-up trying to refresh.


Well maybe if a CERTAIN GROUP would quit hitting refresh for three seconds lol!


----------



## Leo

My sweet memories: I have five years and today is Christmas day...


----------



## Leo

Leo said:


> My sweet memories: I have five years and today is Christmas day...


will it be an amazing toy that I have been impatiently waiting for all year?


----------



## BasariStudios

Casiquire said:


> Well maybe if a CERTAIN GROUP would quit hitting refresh for three seconds lol!


I keep refreshing this Thread.


----------



## molemac

MSS is out ! Of stock, there is no one here to answer your call please try again later


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> I have yet to figure out all the ABC BBC CSS XYZ ASS SBC CNN NBC FOX ABD Abbreviations mean.


So glad this is happening during a pandemic with little work around and so time to waste hours of my life on this thread. Way more entertaining than Netflix. It’s pure Beckett , Waiting for GODOT.


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> So glad this is happening during a pandemic with little work around and so time to waste hours of my life on this thread. Way more entertaining than Netflix. It’s pure Beckett , Waiting for GODOT.


Well at least this one is over...wait until all of us get back 
to the Hoopus Thread tomorrow...no entertainment in this one anymore.


----------



## Casiquire

BasariStudios said:


> Well at least this one is over...wait until all of us get back
> to the Hoopus Thread tomorrow...no entertainment in this one anymore.


Not over yet, I don't see any demos!


----------



## ism

Noeticus said:


> Oh, my God it's happening!!!



Apropos of nothing in particular, perhaps this the sort of person who would follow 116 pages of this thread might also enjoy a little e e cummings right now::


i thank You God for most this amazing
day:for the leaping greenly spirits of trees
and a blue true dream of sky;and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes

(i who have died am alive again today,
and this is the sun’s birthday;this is the birth
day of life and of love and wings:and of the gay
great happening illimitably earth)

how should tasting touching hearing seeing
breathing any—lifted from the no
of all nothing—human merely being
doubt unimaginable You?

(now the ears of my ears awake and
now the eyes of my eyes are opened)


----------



## Noeticus

How about...

“Never, oh! never, nothing will die;​The stream flows,​The wind blows,​The cloud fleets,​The heart beats,​Nothing will die.”​
by Alfred Lord Tennyson.


----------



## Geoff Grace

ned3000 said:


> What does that mean, it's "out"? Still can't buy it. Also now I'm wondering how I'm going to prove that I have full LASS that I bought like 30 years ago when it came out.


I'm trying to wrap my head around LASS appearing in 1991. It would have obliterated the competition, that's for sure. You would have needed a fleet of Akai S1000s—maxed out at 16 MB each—to run it! Even a final generation Synclavier would have been underpowered.

Can you imagine trying to run it on Windows 3 or System 7? How many SCSI drives would you have needed? Even a 1 GB one would have cost a small fortune!

We are _so_ lucky today!

Best,

Geoff


----------



## sourcefor

I hope this is out soon , looking for a library I do not have to delay! It gets messed up when trying to layer libraries!


----------



## molemac

“Nothing happens. Nobody comes, nobody goes. It's awful

“Let's go." "We can't." "Why not?" "We're waiting for MSS.”
― Samuel Beckett, Waiting for Godot


----------



## borisb2

Geoff Grace said:


> I'm trying to wrap my head around LASS appearing in 1991. It would have obliterated the competition, that's for sure. You would have needed a fleet of Akai S1000s—maxed out at 16 MB each—to run it! Even a final generation Synclavier would have been underpowered.
> 
> Can you imagine trying to run it on Windows 3 or System 7? How many SCSI drives would you have needed? Even a 1 GB one would have cost a small fortune!
> 
> We are _so_ lucky today!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


Woa woa.. slow down young padawan. You’re throwing around a lot of tech terms that many here have never heard (I assume 😋).. SCSI??

And who needed an S1000 anyway if you could live with 2 S950


----------



## molemac

Geoff Grace said:


> I'm trying to wrap my head around LASS appearing in 1991. It would have obliterated the competition, that's for sure. You would have needed a fleet of Akai S1000s—maxed out at 16 MB each—to run it! Even a final generation Synclavier would have been underpowered.
> 
> Can you imagine trying to run it on Windows 3 or System 7? How many SCSI drives would you have needed? Even a 1 GB one would have cost a small fortune!
> 
> We are _so_ lucky today!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


Scsi drives ? You lucky bastard, we had to lick road clean wit tongue


----------



## Luka

6 hours left maximum 😅🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## mcalis

molemac said:


> Scsi drives ? You lucky bastard, we had to lick road clean wit tongue



Ha, you had it easy! I used to live in a cardboard box in the middle of the road!


----------



## turnerofwheels

Geoff Grace said:


> I'm trying to wrap my head around LASS appearing in 1991. It would have obliterated the competition, that's for sure. You would have needed a fleet of Akai S1000s—maxed out at 16 MB each—to run it! Even a final generation Synclavier would have been underpowered.
> 
> Can you imagine trying to run it on Windows 3 or System 7? How many SCSI drives would you have needed? Even a 1 GB one would have cost a small fortune!
> 
> We are _so_ lucky today!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


A massive server farm of 486s each with just enough ram to handle a few notes per computer as disks are too slow for disk streaming.. so a central server takes incoming midi requests and sends out say one octave of one articulation to a computer, and so forth... with network technology that probably didn't exist in Windows 3, however. 

Sorry, no legato.


----------



## lettucehat

Luka said:


> 6 hours left maximum 😅🤷🏻‍♂️


Not true! According to what Andrew K wrote in their forum, we might have to wait until midnight in the very last time zone, not just PST.


----------



## artomatic

It's up!!


----------



## BasariStudios

SHANE TURNER said:


> A massive server farm of 486s each with just enough ram to handle a few notes per computer as disks are too slow for disk streaming.. so a central server takes incoming midi requests and sends out say one octave of one articulation to a computer, and so forth... with network technology that probably didn't exist in Windows 3, however.
> 
> Sorry, no legato.


So basically...if you played a Note in 1991 on the Keyboard you would hear it in 2003?


----------



## lettucehat

Ok it's up


----------



## turnerofwheels

Oh look, legato videos too


----------



## Noeticus

CONGRATULATIONS AudioBro Gods!!!

Now, I will watch the new videos.

THANKS!!!


----------



## Marlon Brown

It's out and downloadable!


----------



## feck

Good job on the servers, guys...download speeds are FAST. Psyched to have some fun with these.


Aaaand...Intuition Series? Awesome.


----------



## dxmachina

I really wanted to come over here about an hour ago and just post "April Fools."

Seriously though... _thanks_ for the patience and all the words of support.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Downloading now !


----------



## Toecutter

Demos are too focused on shorts and aleatoric stuff. The one thing I was most excited about is my biggest letdown: not impressed by the legato examples, still think it sounds synthy... congrats on the release anyway, will wait for user examples!!


----------



## ism

Noeticus said:


> How about...
> 
> “Never, oh! never, nothing will die;​The stream flows,​The wind blows,​The cloud fleets,​The heart beats,​Nothing will die.”​
> by Alfred Lord Tennyson.




A lingering longing
I'm longing the quiet, the sturdy gushing,
I'm longing the everlasting joy,
I'm longing the soft embrace of pain,
I'm longing a peace injected chaos,
I'm longing the flamboyance of hope,
I'm longing the screams of voiceless voids,
I'm longing a ruin that grew with time
— Chandrima banerjee


----------



## ism

Skimming through the demos, I’m hearing some absolutely gorgeous legato, quite unlike anything else out there.


----------



## Noeticus

ism said:


> A lingering longing
> I'm longing the quiet, the sturdy gushing,
> I'm longing the everlasting joy,
> I'm longing the soft embrace of pain,
> I'm longing a peace injected chaos,
> I'm longing the flamboyance of hope,
> I'm longing the screams of voiceless voids,
> I'm longing a ruin that grew with time
> — Chandrima banerjee


“I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas.”​


----------



## turnerofwheels

ism said:


> Skimming through the demos, I’m hearing some absolutely gorgeous legato, quite unlike anything else out there.


The intuition stuff is pretty impressive.


----------



## mojamusic

I’m excited! We’re stuck inside (even more so) because of the snow storm... so this is perfect timing. I hope and pray no one loses power before the download completes


----------



## Tinesaeriel

So, I was a little worried at first - the legato in the Demo Video didn't sound too hot at first, and I was all like, "Darn! Another developer bungles legato after getting so close..."

But then I started listening to the Demos. Cameron Moody's and Nathan Furst's demos especially made the legato sound much, much better. It's especially apparent in Furst's Strings Only versions of his demos. It even sounds like the Solo Strings in this library stack up as true soloists, too, which is really super impressive.

...Gosh darnit, I think I just might bite the bullet on this one. Blast it. My poor credit card. XD


----------



## BasariStudios

God! I haven"t heard anything like this yet! Another Strings
Library, WTF am i gonna do with all these?


----------



## lettucehat

Super impressed with all the videos but I would really love it if the demo composers could upload dry versions. I can hear what the library can do between all of the demos and videos, but by god it's all covered up like a MIR demo lol.


----------



## Lazer42

Tinesaeriel said:


> So, I was a little worried at first - the legato in the Demo Video didn't sound too hot at first, and I was all like, "Darn! Another developer bungles legato after getting so close..."
> 
> But then I started listening to the Demos. Cameron Moody's and Nathan Furst's demos especially made the legato sound much, much better. It's especially apparent in Furst's Strings Only versions of his demos. It even sounds like the Solo Strings in this library stack up as true soloists, too, which is really super impressive.
> 
> ...Gosh darnit, I think I just might bite the bullet on this one. Blast it. My poor credit card. XD


I really can't tell. In that legato overview video, some parts literally remind me of the "synth strings" general MIDI patch in an old Casio keyboard of mine. Then other parts of that video sound better. Then some portions of the demo tracks really do sound quite good. Then other portions of the demo tracks (particularly the high pitches) make me skeptical again. Then the Intuition video sounds pretty good.

One thing I wonder about is whether or not whatever reverb is being used in that legato video (as it does sound like there is one) is spoiling the sound a bit. In particular on the solo cello, it sounds like the pre-delay is turned up to 11 and - whether or not that's what's actually going on or not - it's really messing with the sound.

I am looking forward to hearing some examples of what people do with this library to get a wider spectrum on which to judge.


----------



## Kevperry777

I’d highly recommend watching the intuition video. The legatos sound amazing there....and there are some more mind blowing features not present in any other library I’m aware of. 

Congrats on the release!


----------



## TintoL

Finally out...... soo much waiting... 

It's hard to tell honestly. The videos and ALL demos are swimming in too much Reverb and the room has this sterile feel. 

I don't understand why taking the RAW library sound out of the marketing.


----------



## borisb2

lettucehat said:


> Super impressed with all the videos but I would really love it if the demo composers could upload dry versions. I can hear what the library can do between all of the demos and videos, but by god it's all covered up like a MIR demo lol.


totally agree .. the sound of the strings overall seems pretty impressive - but I dont like that hall sound throughout

whenever MSS is allowed to be more upfront (like in some of the Shorts demos) the library really shows its strength


----------



## lettucehat

give it to us dry Audiobro!

edit: I say that with love for what I'm hearing from the library


----------



## borisb2

by the way .. some really good brass sounds in the demos .. wonder if thats all MSB?


----------



## BasariStudios

Still listening...it is just too much Reverb uugghhh.


----------



## Leo

I definitely love ostinatos, runs, shorts, aleatoric that's all great peace of art, 
but legatos, maybe??
Anyways maybe this ostinatos, runs, shorts worth alone for that price.


----------



## muziksculp

Lazer42 said:


> I really can't tell. In that legato overview video, some parts literally remind me of the "synth strings" general MIDI patch in an old Casio keyboard of mine.


----------



## Toecutter

Leo said:


> I definitely love ostinatos, runs, shorts, aleatoric that's all great peace of art,
> but legatos, maybe??
> Anyways maybe this ostinatos, runs, shorts worth alone for that price.


My impressions exactly. I don't like the room... I think it's the same they recorded Genesis and NI Strings. I don't think it's flattering to strings.


----------



## zolhof

Audiobro delivers a professional library with a feature set and price unmatched by anything else in existence and the basement-dwelling, all-day pajama wearing, armchair activists still gotta find things to complain about. EIGHT different demo tracks isn't good enough... it's synthy... legatos are not impressive... the room sucks. Some people won't be happy unless you hand them a piece of alien technology that summons the best session players, alive or dead (keyswitchable leaders: Paganini, Sarasate, Hindemith, Stamitz, Boccherini) in every conceivable stage option and even then I have a feeling that we would read complaints about shortcomings that lie within the user, not the library.


----------



## Lazer42

zolhof said:


> Audiobro delivers a professional library with a feature set and price unmatched by anything else in existence and the basement-dwelling, all-day pajama wearing, armchair activists still gotta find things to complain about. EIGHT different demo tracks isn't good enough... it's synthy... legatos are not impressive... the room sucks. Some people won't be happy unless you hand them a piece of alien technology that summons the best session players, alive or dead (keyswitchable leaders: Paganini, Sarasate, Hindemith, Stamitz, Boccherini) in every conceivable stage option and even then I have a feeling that we would read complaints about shortcomings that lie within the user, not the library.


Why are people not allowed to dislike the sound of a sample library without having to qualify as matching various derogatory adjectives? Are there no libraries which you have ever disliked the sound of?


----------



## BasariStudios

zolhof said:


> Audiobro delivers a professional library with a feature set and price unmatched by anything else in existence and the basement-dwelling, all-day pajama wearing, armchair activists still gotta find things to complain about. EIGHT different demo tracks isn't good enough... it's synthy... legatos are not impressive... the room sucks. Some people won't be happy unless you hand them a piece of alien technology that summons the best session players, alive or dead (keyswitchable leaders: Paganini, Sarasate, Hindemith, Stamitz, Boccherini) in every conceivable stage option and even then I have a feeling that we would read complaints about shortcomings that lie within the user, not the library.


You know no hell yet. Wait for Hoopus. That's when the Gates will open.


----------



## Toecutter

zolhof said:


> Audiobro delivers a professional library with a feature set and price unmatched by anything else in existence and the basement-dwelling, all-day pajama wearing, armchair activists still gotta find things to complain about. EIGHT different demo tracks isn't good enough... it's synthy... legatos are not impressive... the room sucks. Some people won't be happy unless you hand them a piece of alien technology that summons the best session players, alive or dead (keyswitchable leaders: Paganini, Sarasate, Hindemith, Stamitz, Boccherini) in every conceivable stage option and even then I have a feeling that we would read complaints about shortcomings that lie within the user, not the library.


You can't say I didn't try to put it nicely XD I know I nitpick sometimes but it's just frustrating after all those years disliking the bone dry sound of LASS to have the opposite problem with MSS. I may be jumping the gun of course, it's hard to judge without playing myself but based on the naked examples in the walkthroughs, I think Audiobro picked the wrong room for strings. I'd love to be proven wrong... that MSB track you posted would be a great test for strings too!! Up for the challenge? XD


----------



## constaneum

I wish for more videos too to cover the following
1. The expanded legato library
2. a slightly more in depth video coverage on the mic (without the convolution reverb applied)
3. a more quick play through kind of video covering the sound of each articulation for each instrument (you can skip all the aleatoric, ostinatos, scales & runs).


----------



## mojamusic

zolhof said:


> Audiobro delivers a professional library with a feature set and price unmatched by anything else in existence and the basement-dwelling, all-day pajama wearing, armchair activists still gotta find things to complain about. EIGHT different demo tracks isn't good enough... it's synthy... legatos are not impressive... the room sucks. Some people won't be happy unless you hand them a piece of alien technology that summons the best session players, alive or dead (keyswitchable leaders: Paganini, Sarasate, Hindemith, Stamitz, Boccherini) in every conceivable stage option and even then I have a feeling that we would read complaints about shortcomings that lie within the user, not the library.


What’s that about alien tech? Has there been a release date set? OOOh baby, I can’t wait to get my hands on THAT!


----------



## Ryan Fultz

I can hear this library doing amazingly well for 90's-style scores, for slow and lush modern sounds, scores in the HTTYD realm, Austin Wintory's Journey/Abzu writing, and it seems suited very well for horror scores of both the golden-age and modern variety. But it looks like I'm gonna have to buy it to see if this can also be pushed into that hyper-real style as well and find out just how aggressive this library can actually get.

I'm not crazy about the tone of the room in its natural state, but between all those demos its pretty clear that the tone and sound of the library is very flexible, which is a big plus to me. The demos are great and some of them showcased writing I would say a lot of other sample libraries do not typically enjoy a lot of success performing as well as this does, but definitely missing a good chunk of modern punch-you-in-the-face writing/production that I would of loved to have heard as well.

From just the audio and video I'm impressed enough that I may have to put down my money and see if this library can really suite the vast majority of my needs. From a creative standpoint this definitely seems to be a top tier library in terms of writing much closer to how an actual string section can perform.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Congratulations, Audiobro!

This looks like a string library that pushes the bar on so many levels.

Now, @dxmachina - could we please see a video that covers *mics, room sound and reverb*?
Especially I would like to have some demonstration on some different presets for the room sound and what characteristics and suggested uses they have. Just as a jumping off point of course. That's what I already missed in the manual for LASS.
It might also be a chance for those who commented that they are not happy with the room sound. It did not stick out to me as a negative but I would like to see what coloring options there are within the library and what your recommendations are.

​


----------



## novaburst

Legato


----------



## novaburst




----------



## borisb2

Wunderhorn said:


> Congratulations, Audiobro!
> 
> This looks like a string library that pushes the bar on so many levels.
> 
> Now, @dxmachina - could we please see a video that covers *mics, room sound and reverb*?


there is the shorts video that also goes over the mics .. in that video audiobro is mentioning there will be a video about thes room presets .. waiting for that

But listening to the close mic shorts I realized that room-"problem" is probably a non existing problem - one can bring the sound as much forward as needed (and add your own room)


----------



## zolhof

Lazer42 said:


> Why are people not allowed to dislike the sound of a sample library without having to qualify as matching various derogatory adjectives? Are there no libraries which you have ever disliked the sound of?


If you follow this forum long enough, you will notice that some here are just compulsive complainers. That's how I picture them when I read such comments.  In my opinion, it's noise and doesn't help anyone to make an informed decision. Some of us are actual working professionals who just want to get the job done, and whatever helps us get it done most effectively will get our money. Based on my previous experience with LASS, Genesis and MSB, I trust that the Audiobro folks know their stuff. The tools are there, how they are used it's a completely subjective matter.

I's also a firm believer that tech demos don't paint the full picture, I always prefer to judge a library from a musical context and, having done just that, I can't hear any room or legato issues in the tracks I heard so far (Lullaby for the Planet, Breach, and Chose One).


----------



## zolhof

Toecutter said:


> You can't say I didn't try to put it nicely XD I know I nitpick sometimes but it's just frustrating after all those years disliking the bone dry sound of LASS to have the opposite problem with MSS. I may be jumping the gun of course, it's hard to judge without playing myself but based on the naked examples in the walkthroughs, I think Audiobro picked the wrong room for strings.


I'm glad that you can laugh at yourself, it's a rare thing these days!  Yes, I think you are jumping the gun, the library has been out for a couple of hours... too soon to condemn it. Did you hear the audio demos on the website? 



Toecutter said:


> I'd love to be proven wrong... that MSB track you posted would be a great test for strings too!! Up for the challenge? XD


I have so many strings libraries already, I'm still exploring Vista and that's one legato patch hehehe


----------



## borisb2

just listened again to "at long last" .. such a gorgeous string sound.. wow

maybe a tiny bit CSS or BS under the sound to thicken it up and you're in heaven


----------



## lettucehat

borisb2 said:


> But listening to the close mic shorts I realized that room-"problem" is probably a non existing problem - one can bring the sound as much forward as needed (and add your own room)


Exactly, and I think what you're seeing aren't complaints at all but reflecting a desire to hear things more naturally. I'm not shy about calling out synthy legato when I hear it (won't name names, positivity love and light, etc), but this already seems to be the best symphonic size legato. I think too much reverb, especially an unflattering one, can make any library sound beneath its own potential. I'm getting this because I already know the close mics sound great and the comprehensiveness of the library is on a different level.


----------



## chapbot

Great demos. Those shorts are impressive.

Intuition Engine = LASS 3.0  I have a feeling those patches will be all I'll be using.

I think it's a ground-breaking library.

Developers, please stop drenching your tutorial videos in reverb.

I guess I won't know how detailed it can sound until I buy it and get those close mics loaded up.


----------



## hendyb

All the features are jaw dropping, but unfortunately i have yet to hear any example of great sounding legato transitions, especially compared to newer strings libraries after LASS 2.5

intuition looks great, although i'm still a bit puzzled, are they just simplified string patches?
it seems to indicate they are a hybrid samples/synth in a way, but i just can't hear it, which might not be a bad thing.. 
maybe this intuition patches can be sold separately in the future rather than just being there as bonus patches? I'm sure quite few ppl would be interested if the price is right


----------



## amorphosynthesis

I really like what I am hearing!!!
congrats!!!!Audiobro @dxmachina ....so how long is the discounted price gonna last?
till 3/16,isn't it?
​


----------



## Toecutter

zolhof said:


> Did you hear the audio demos on the website?


I hadn't listened to all tracks yet but yeap I missed some good ones. Cameron Moody and Nathan First demos sound a lot better than anything I heard in the walkthroughs. I guess you are right, context helps.



chapbot said:


> Great demos. Those shorts are impressive.
> 
> Intuition Engine = LASS 3.0  I have a feeling those patches will be all I'll be using.


Shorts and aleatoric articulations are MSS highlights so far. Anyone finished the download and can compare the legato to CSS, Vista and Hollywood Strings?


----------



## DID CHOI

Feature wise it looks too good to be true! So excited to hear third party reviews! Also curious how it sounds if you only use one of each divisi section and whether it gives a good chamber sound, comparable to Spitfire Chamber Strings or Vista. 



Toecutter said:


> I hadn't listened to all tracks yet but yeap I missed some good ones. Cameron Moody and Nathan First demos sound a lot better than anything I heard in the walkthroughs. I guess you are right, context helps.
> 
> 
> Shorts and aleatoric articulations are MSS highlights so far. Anyone finished the download and can compare the legato to CSS, Vista and Hollywood Strings?


YES, curious how it stands against CSS and Vista!


----------



## borisb2

damn it .. I'm downloading


----------



## Frederick

I don't need it, but I found my excuse in the intuition series so I bought it anyway. Downloading now...


----------



## Christof

The legato sound in the video isn't convincing to me, sounds a bit synthy and artificial.
Is this only me?
What do you think?


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Christof said:


> The legato sound in the video isn't convincing to me, sounds a bit synthy and artificial.
> Is this only me?
> What do you think?


Unfortunately I'm afraid it's not just you. Judging from a very short first impression.


----------



## molemac

I’m waiting for others to try out and report back . I will probably buy regardless because of all the features . The portamento legato like the one in Lass does not sound convincing Which worries me a little.


----------



## mussnig

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Unfortunately I'm afraid it's not just you. Judging from a very short first impression.


I am by no means an expert for Legatos but I found it a bit strange that Audiobro's Legato Video doesn't really show slow, exposed transitions (there are slower ones here and there but it wasn't featured that much). That being said, I would of course be happy to be positively surprised by initial impressions and reviews of other members here.

After all, this library seems a bit like something that can do it all. In German one might say "eierlegende Wollmilchsau".


----------



## muziksculp

I think my prediction about what to expect from VI-Control Legato experts about MSS Legatos is right on the money. Oh.. no one mentioned the word 'Bumpy' yet ?


----------



## FireGS

molemac said:


> I’m waiting for others to try out and report back . I will probably buy regardless because of all the features . The portamento legato like the one in Lass does not sound convincing Which worries me a little.


Portamento and gliss is an effect. It should be used SPARINGLY, and only for effect. When its placed in a weird spot, it'll always sound fake, no matter the library.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. no one mentioned the word 'Bumpy' yet ?


One thing it is not, is bumpy.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> One thing it is not, is bumpy.


Hehe.. but I saw the word 'Synthy' mentioned.


----------



## constaneum

i really have a 50/50 decision on this. I felt LASS has better demos. the official demos of MSS all sound too mushy for my taste as well. heavily drown with reverbs. Is that the out of the box wetness sound or is it caused by too many reverbs applied here ? just curious how dry can this gem be.


----------



## muziksculp

Christof said:


> The legato sound in the video isn't convincing to me, sounds a bit synthy and artificial.
> Is this only me?
> What do you think?


There you go.


----------



## Trax

Add another to the sound synthy. :(


----------



## Pianolando

Congratulations to Audiobro for an amazing release! I bought the complete version instantly when hearing the legato video, hope to get a lot of mileage out of MSS and hopefully replacing Berlin strings as my main string library after 7 years of heavy use.


----------



## Christof

I mean I would love to give the legato a try, but this is too risky for that price.


----------



## muziksculp

I look forward to watch, and listen to some independent video reviews, and detailed walkthroughs of MSS in the coming days.

A bit too tired tonight to watch the AudioBro videos, but will have fresh ears, and more energy tomorrow morning.

_*** Congratulations to AudioBro for finally releasing Modern Scoring Strings ! ***_


----------



## FireGS

I think there's a mixing issue happening here. I just dragged the audio from the Legato video into a DAW to check out the phase correlation. 

This is a part of the opening piece:






This is from the first example of Violins:










Now, by comparison, the solo violin:






Notice a whole lot less phase? Also notice how that sounds much drier than the section? And now solo violin + ensemble:






Phase is back.

I think their onboard reverb is causing a LOT of phase issues and is a major factor to the issue with the sound we don't like. I'll provide some more screenshots.


----------



## Batrawi

Christof said:


> The legato sound in the video isn't convincing to me, sounds a bit synthy and artificial.
> Is this only me?
> What do you think?


my thoughts as well. I wouldn't say it sounds exactly "synthy" but it's rather "functional"... just something there to connect the sustains with each other but lacks any movement or musicality. I'd say that's because Andrew just left the auto speed on the whole video which never hit the slowest transition possible. That said, whomever is downloading the library may I ask you to please post a simple melodic example while 1)turning off the legato auto-speed and 2)turn the speed knob all the way down to the solwest transition... that way we can get a real idea about how musical the legato is in this library

edit: oh and don't forget to turn off all onboard reverb/fx that could be causing mixing issues as FireGS noted


----------



## FireGS

FireGS said:


> I think there's a mixing issue happening here. I just dragged the audio from the Legato video into a DAW to check out the phase correlation.
> 
> This is a part of the opening piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is from the first example of Violins:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, by comparison, the solo violin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice a whole lot less phase? Also notice how that sounds much drier than the section? And now solo violin + ensemble:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phase is back.
> 
> I think their onboard reverb is causing a LOT of phase issues and is a major factor to the issue with the sound we don't like. I'll provide some more screenshots.








Again, violins. 

One accented fortissimo note:






Violas, not so bad, considering they're recorded center, but the reverb is still causing some phase issues on the attacks:






Celli:






Basses:


----------



## Jish

zolhof said:


> Audiobro delivers a professional library with a feature set and price unmatched by anything else in existence and the basement-dwelling, all-day pajama wearing, armchair activists still gotta find things to complain about. EIGHT different demo tracks isn't good enough... it's synthy... legatos are not impressive... the room sucks. Some people won't be happy unless you hand them a piece of alien technology that summons the best session players, alive or dead (keyswitchable leaders: Paganini, Sarasate, Hindemith, Stamitz, Boccherini) in every conceivable stage option and even then I have a feeling that we would read complaints about shortcomings that lie within the user, not the library.


Honestly, I'm still waiting on the release of germancomponist's next-gen modeled multi-faceted flatulence library he promised to us weeks ago in that other thread. All hype, I tell ya.

Gonna have to wait for the user walkthroughs on this one, as what it seems to feature (like it's predecessor) hasn't really been done before. My initial response after the new videos, is that...at this point, it feels as though this library further confirms a growing half-decade suspicion I've felt that further big 'a-ha!' moment's in string libraries are only going to get more difficult to capture given what's already come before- boring (if somewhat unsatisfying) statement, of course. On the other hand, just reading the damn feature list almost set's the bar *too* high for any current developer, let alone one the size of Audiobro.


----------



## lettucehat

muziksculp said:


> I look forward to watch, and listen to some independent video reviews, and detailed walkthroughs of MSS in the coming days.
> 
> A bit too tired tonight to watch the AudioBro videos, but will have fresh ears, and more energy tomorrow morning.
> 
> _*** Congratulations to AudioBro for finally releasing Modern Scoring Strings ! ***_


lol you didn't have the time to watch the actual videos because you spent that time patting yourself on the back for your Nostradamus-esque prediction. Here's a thought - maybe people are saying it sounds synthy for a reason?

And I'm with FireGS, though I didn't do any analysis. It seemed a couple weeks ago that the use of reverbs and/or hall mics is interfering with the tone. So I don't consider it a knock against the library at all to say some of the tones coming out are synthy. The legatos sound nice themselves. And the Intuition patches, with how impressively they handle those *rapid* passages, would be far more hyped coming from a different developer!


----------



## FireGS

*JUST AS I SUSPECTED.

Close mics? NO PHASE.*

Celli, close mics short video:


----------



## FireGS

Close mic + mix celli, no reverb:






SURROUND mic only: 






Phase city. Due to the nature of surround mics. I think an issue lies in that the mix mic uses Stage and Surround mics, which may be more naturally phasey. Add convolution reverb, which doesn't look like it's been high passed at all, and you get a lot of low end build up, which sounds like mud.


----------



## borisb2

anybody have an idea what is happening here? download got stuck twice at 4 out of 37 packages. I waited a long time before I canceled. Now I can only request (by email???) a new install. WTH?


----------



## lettucehat

FireGS said:


> Portamento and gliss is an effect. It should be used SPARINGLY, and only for effect. When its placed in a weird spot, it'll always sound fake, no matter the library.


Yeah and I might add I think we're hearing too many ports/glisses in these videos (compared with how often they occur in your average cue). I think the fingered _and_ _bow change_ switchability is the star of the show here and people have barely mentioned it. So many developers have just thrown the distinction in the trash.


----------



## muziksculp

lettucehat said:


> lol you didn't have the time to watch the actual videos because you spent that time patting yourself on the back for your Nostradamus-esque prediction.


No, I spent it mostly reading comments about MSS on this forum, and patting myself was a little fun bonus for you.


----------



## FireGS

Violins mix:






Violins close:






Violins stage:






Violins surround:


----------



## Wlad

I'm not too concern with the legato as I am with the baked-in reverb. To my ears, it is really unpleasant. It sounds like the room was too small for strings to develop properly. For me personally, everything but the close mics would be unusable. Again, just my taste, don't hate me, it is just constructive criticism.


----------



## FireGS

Wlad said:


> I'm not too concern with the legato as I am with the baked-in reverb. To my ears, it is really unpleasant. It sounds like the room was too small for strings to develop properly. For me personally, everything but the close mics would be unusable. Again, just my taste, don't hate me, it is just constructive criticism.


I think close mics with stage -6db and some tail only external reverb and the sound would be *chef kiss*.


----------



## Batrawi

borisb2 said:


> anybody have an idea what is happening here? download got stuck twice at 4 out of 37 packages. I waited a long time before I canceled. Now I can only request (by email???) a new install. WTH?


I had a similar message when I downloaded MSB. I didn't of course request a full reinstall but as I recall I just ignored it and the library was already downloaded. just to be sure, check the forum support, I think there is a troubleshoot for this issue


----------



## molemac

FireGS said:


> Portamento and gliss is an effect. It should be used SPARINGLY, and only for effect. When its placed in a weird spot, it'll always sound fake, no matter the library.


Sure but in the legato vid it appears too much in unmusical places which is off putting. When you really need it though can it cut it ?


----------



## FireGS

molemac said:


> Sure but in the legato vid it appears too much in unmusical places which is off putting. When you really need it though can it cut it ?


Maybe. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I dont know yet. I'm broke.


----------



## Wlad

FireGS said:


> I think close mics with stage -6db and some tail only external reverb and the sound would be *chef kiss*.


Most of the time I use only close mics for strings with the addition of external reverb, but I'm a little disappointed that other mic positions are not usable for me personaly. I'm waiting for some close mics demos before I pull the trigger.


----------



## lettucehat

muziksculp said:


> No, I spent it mostly reading comments about MSS on this forum, and patting myself was a little fun bonus for you.


Yeah, either way, after all of this wait you didn't even watch the videos everyone's been waiting for - incredible!


----------



## borisb2

Batrawi said:


> I had a similar message when I downloaded MSB. I didn't of course request a full reinstall but as I recall I just ignored it and the library was already downloaded. just to be sure, check the forum support, I think there is a troubleshoot for this issue


wrote audiobro and got reply from Andrew within 5 minutes. Fingers crossed that its working/downloading now


----------



## FireGS

lettucehat said:


> I'm not sure we've ever heard the full mix or stage or surround without plenty of reverb sends on top. So yeah we'll have to wait and .. hear...


We have. The shorts video has all of the mics without reverb (towards the end).


----------



## lettucehat

FireGS said:


> We have. The shorts video has all of the mics without reverb (towards the end).


Yep, deleted my comment woops.


----------



## Alex Niedt

Batrawi said:


> That said, whomever is downloading the library may I ask you to please post a simple melodic example while 1)turning off the legato auto-speed and 2)turn the speed knob all the way down to the solwest transition... that way we can get a real idea about how musical the legato is in this library


This is what I'd like to hear, as well. After so much promise in other areas, I'm really underwhelmed by the legato video and the legato-focused official demos, but I'm trying to convince myself there's a way to get a really musical sound out of this. But if not, I guess I'll save a bunch of money.


----------



## molemac

Regardless of reverb and room sound ( easily got round with the close mikes ) and lack of slow legato examples it’s an extraordinary achievement and probably is going to be everyone’s go to string library for a long while . Congratulations Andrew and Sebastian . Looking forward to playing with it soon.


----------



## Wlad

molemac said:


> Regardless of reverb and room sound ( easily got round with the close mikes ) and lack of slow legato examples it’s an extraordinary achievement and probably is going to be everyone’s go to string library for a long while . Congratulations Andrew and Sebastian . Looking forward to playing with it soon.


I absolutely agree. It is amazing what they managed to pack in one library and what users are able to achieve with it.


----------



## Zedcars

I feel like, even if the legatos aren't the best, which I think the jury is still out on, the rest of the library has so much to offer it more than makes up for it and would still be immensely useful and save a ton of time and effort in many areas of composition/mockup creation. I'm still making up my mind and haven't watched all the videos yet.


----------



## lettucehat

And even based on what we've heard with the reverb and all, I think it has the best all around legato sound and system for a symphonic ensemble size. All of the others have had their fair share of criticism.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I suspect the legatos will sound fine exposed with the close mic. I just wish they'd recorded 2 speed/variation of regular legatos and dropped the glissando. But I'm very glad they recorded accented legatos and the 3 attack variations.

Have mad respect for the Audio Bro team taking on huge project like.

And please, someone send a copy of Ozone to the Audio Bro team asap.


----------



## Raphioli

Christof said:


> The legato sound in the video isn't convincing to me, sounds a bit synthy and artificial.
> Is this only me?
> What do you think?


Unfortunately, that's how I felt too.

It did sound good during a few parts, so I'm going to wait till hopefully someone makes a simple comparison with legatos, without the builtin reverb (IR). And maybe even with the close mics only.

So I'm not going to make any conclusions yet. Since I really like the other features...


----------



## Raphioli

FireGS said:


> Violins mix:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Violins close:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Violins stage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Violins surround:


So its not just the builtin reverb(IR) but the RAW stage and surround mic samples as well?
hmm...



Alex Niedt said:


> This is what I'd like to hear, as well. After so much promise in other areas, I'm really underwhelmed by the legato video and the legato-focused official demos, but I'm trying to convince myself there's a way to get a really musical sound out of this. But if not, I guess I'll save a bunch of money.


I'm feeling exactly the same.


----------



## constaneum

Raphioli said:


> So its not just the builtin reverb(IR) but the RAW stage and surround mic samples as well?
> hmm...


now...this is worrying.


----------



## FireGS

Raphioli said:


> So its not just the builtin reverb(IR) but the RAW stage and surround mic samples as well?
> hmm...


Well, one has to understand that stereo width is what's at odds here. Those close mics are very directional, and has little (but not none) room bleed. The further back, and wider you get, the more phase will be introduced, no matter what.

I think the main issue here is the added on IR's dont look to have been highpassed by default, or at least in the videos, and its a known thing that reverb from 600mhz and lower adds a lot of mud, and bass phase. Add into account that the mix mic is a combination of the two most phase-likely combinations (stage + surround), and there's a recipe for phase.

How do I know this? I've been experimenting a lot with MIR Pro, and I noticed what happens to the sound of the reverb when things get too wide, or too much low frequency, and the sound becomes thin, and turns great samples (and even recordings) into thin, synthy-sounding yick -- because the bottom end drops out due to phase.

I'm most curious about the "RAW UNPROCESSED" snapshots as seen in the "Getting Started" video. There's a lot more snapshots shown in that video than the others.


----------



## FireGS

constaneum said:


> now...this is worrying.


I wouldn't say its worrying, I would say it's something to be aware of - from any sample library or recording. Phase is a natural part of the recording process - it's what you choose to do as a mixer/programmer with this phase that will determine a lot of your sound.

Frankly, and this may just be me, but I prefer that the natural phase is there so that I can control how I want it to sound. 

Example, I would likely want to route the 3 mics to different channels, and the further back the mics are, the more I may EQ the sound, or use some sort of multi-band stereo narrowing on the sound. That way I can get the tone of the stage and surround mics, but maybe not have them be so wide as to phase as much. I also believe that having each mic at a relative volume to each other would help greatly in the phase department. Having granular control over these things is such a nice featureset - but I can completely understand how 90% of people don't want to fuss with this and spend more time focusing on writing/producing.

That said, when I do get this library, I'm going to spend the first ~week or so dialing in a sound and template, and routing, and reverb. Then set it and forget it.


----------



## FireGS

Doing some pre/post on a few of the demos, and I hear an immediate difference when doing some multi-band stereo narrowing in the <600mhz range. Here's a before and after, I wont say which one, and of course putting this at the end of the chain, there's still going to be dips. Would be much better to do it section-at-a-time, but the difference is immediate and noticeable.






I will say that one of the audio demos, Highway of Death Strings Only has absolutely no phase issues, until the ending. Sounds like the close mics for the majority of the song (shorts).


----------



## molemac

FireGS said:


> Doing some pre/post on a few of the demos, and I hear an immediate difference when doing some multi-band stereo narrowing in the <600mhz range. Here's a before and after, I wont say which one, and of course putting this at the end of the chain, there's still going to be dips. Would be much better to do it section-at-a-time, but the difference is immediate and noticeable.


An immediate difference. Ie a lot better ? Can you post it


----------



## FireGS

molemac said:


> An immediate difference. Ie a lot better ? Can you post it


I'd say its "better". The problem is that it should be done per-section, and just high passing the reverb could help wonders and there'd be no need to stereo narrow. But it's impossible to know without the library, and without stems of the demo. Just download the audio, throw it into any multi-band stereo imaging plugin, and fiddle a bit. You'll hear it. Not comfortable posting remixed versions of anyones work or demos.

This is just a matter of reverb and mic balancing. Again, I think the main issue here is that the mix mic, which is 90% of what we've heard in the videos, is a combination of stage and surround, not close and stage, and there was added, non-highpassed reverb, which will make things phase. If anyone is unsure, wait for some demos of the close mics, close+stage, and either with a combination of external reverb.

I seriously think this library is a massive achievement, and I can already hear how it can potentially be used, it's just a matter of mixing.


----------



## molemac

FireGS said:


> I'd say its "better". The problem is that it should be done per-section, and just high passing the reverb could help wonders and there'd be no need to stereo narrow. But it's impossible to know without the library, and without stems of the demo. Just download the audio, throw it into any multi-band stereo imaging plugin, and fiddle a bit. You'll hear it. Not comfortable posting remixed versions of anyones work or demos.


Of course , I realised that as soon as I wrote it


----------



## Laddy

This truly seems like the #1 string library on the market now, even if other libraries might be more fitting for specific scenarios. As much as we want the "holy grail", i.e. a library that is best at *everything*, this is maybe as close as we well get for a good while. As a hobbyist, I can't really justify buying this since I already own a string library or two, but on the other hand, I can afford it... Hm..


----------



## FireGS

Anyone want to donate a copy to me? 😇 😇 😇 😇


----------



## Jaap

Just played with it for one hour and I really love it to be honest. I love the sound and with Cinematic Rooms I can make it work for myself. The amount of options with the library are amazing to be honest. I love that they integrated the expression maps.

I bought the main package and not the extended legato as I don't know if I have use for that, but so far I am really really pleased with what I am hearing.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Laddy said:


> This truly seems like the #1 string library on the market now,


There's like 0 'in the wild' examples and a handful of demos that tend to lean towards a few sounds. 

When people make statements like this I can't help but chuckle. When the dust settles and a year or two from now everyone's slowly replaced the strings in their template with this we can have that discussion. 

Personally I'm not thinking I'm going to pick this one up right now... Which is a shame because I get the feeling the loyalty discount only covers the intro period.


----------



## Eptesicus

Still in two minds. 

The features it offers are fantastic and above and beyond any other string library I can think of. 

I'm still not 100% convinced on the sound compared to what I already own which is obviously the most important aspect. 

Will wait on more user demos and thoughts before deciding whether to jump in I think.

If I didn't have any other string libraries this would probably be a no brainer for the content/price ratio.


----------



## molemac

FireGS said:


> Anyone want to donate a copy to me? 😇 😇 😇 😇


Looks like Laddy is your best bet , he can afford it and doesn’t need it. None of us really need it but it’s a must have my precious.


----------



## molemac

Jaap said:


> Just played with it for one hour and I really love it to be honest. I love the sound and with Cinematic Rooms I can make it work for myself. The amount of options with the library are amazing to be honest. I love that they integrated the expression maps.
> 
> I bought the main package and not the extended legato as I don't know if I have use for that, but so far I am really really pleased with what I am hearing.


How about being the first to post a user demo then , a nice slow romantic violin melody along the lines of Schindler’s list . Close mikes only and some abbey rd IR altiverb and a tad of lexicon 2.3 secs


----------



## Laddy

ProfoundSilence said:


> There's like 0 'in the wild' examples and a handful of demos that tend to lean towards a few sounds.
> 
> When people make statements like this I can't help but chuckle. When the dust settles and a year or two from now everyone's slowly replaced the strings in their template with this we can have that discussion.


Hm, I think the demos and videos show a good variety of uses. 
But anyway, it's probably a good idea to evaluate even more before bying. 

But just admit it, you want this


----------



## N.Caffrey

It sounds gorgeous!


----------



## molemac

A few more details please 


N.Caffrey said:


> It sounds gorgeous!


----------



## N.Caffrey

molemac said:


> A few more details please


I don't have it, just listening to the demos


----------



## molemac

Ok


N.Caffrey said:


> I don't have it, just listening to the demos


ok gotcha


----------



## mcalis

I would really love to hear a legato demo with their default reverb/IR enabled vs disabled. Personally I think their default IR/reverb is muddying up the sound (I have genesis and I disable all their built-in FX there too, I feel it works much better that way). To my ears the examples of the close mics sound the best which would point in the direction that the sound is mostly negatively affected by the standard FX.

Just for clarity @Wlad the IR/reverb is not baked in, unless Audiobro changed their process, going by what I know from Genesis here.


I don't necessarily think the room is the issue. If it is indeed Sofia, then that should be the same place Afflatus was recorded, afaik, which everyone (except me) seems to love the sound of. Again, all examples of close mics sound quite good to me.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Laddy said:


> But just admit it, you want this


it's safe to say most "want" this library, but whether someone wants to spent $300-800 on something when they already own possibly multiple string libraries is something that often takes a lot of evaluation (it certainly does for me and I'd assume the same for many others). Unless you've got a hair trigger or plenty of money for this kind of thing. For me, I'll be purchasing a new computer in some months and probably one or both of CSS/Vista sooner than MSS, but I'll look forward to the user demos to make clearer whether this is something I should put money into; I'd be more than happy to change my mind, there is a whole lot going for MSS that I'm excited about, but I share some of the reservations of some of the others when I hear legatos that sound sort of like adjacent sustains - but that very well may be how they were written and automated. It'll be really helpful hearing how people can work with MSS over the next few weeks/months, putting in the time to juice MSS' realism for all it can handle with thorough automation and very careful mixing (the exciter + Gulfoss on CSS for example was a wow moment on how the timbre of a finished library could change with good processing)

Thanks to @FireGS for making light of some of the phase concerns; the room sound seems to be not my favorite, but hearing it without the IRs and some different mixing may quickly turn me on that part of it. I'd have no qualms about spending a few days exploring it and writing with it, if I could.

There's nothing like sitting down in front of the library yourself for figuring out how it works. It's a shame more companies don't do demos like Vista. I am poor as dirt right now, so when I buy something expensive like a sample library, I want to know as much as possible what I'm getting into. Thankfully I have many months before I'm in a position to afford anything, plenty of time for folks to get their hands dirty. 

My favorite parts about this library are the warmth of the close mics, the flexibility with number of players and layering, the overall expressiveness (I say 'overall' as I've not had the fortune of taking a deep dive into how the vibrato and legato timing work yet) ...and those extended techniques sound incredibly good. I _love_ extended techniques. Related to my love of Padshop/Harmor/Granular. Very exciting library.


----------



## Eptesicus

Russell Anderson said:


> it's safe to say most "want" this library, but whether someone wants to spent $300-800 on something when they already own possibly multiple string libraries is something that takes a lot of evaluation. Unless you've got a hair trigger or plenty of money for this kind of thing. For me, I'll be purchasing a new computer and probably one or both of CSS/Vista sooner than MSS, but I'll look forward to the user demos to make clearer whether this is something I should put money into, I'd be more than happy to change my mind. Aleatoric and detune? Awesome. Musicality? A good amount, but I share some of the reservations of some of the others when I hear legatos that sound sort of like adjacent sustains. Thanks to @FireGS for making light of some of the phase concerns; the room sound is not my favorite, but hearing it without the IRs and some different mixing may make a fan out of me yet. There is a lot to like about this library and I'd have no qualms about spending a few days exploring it and writing with it, if I could.
> 
> There's nothing like sitting down in front of the library yourself for figuring out how it works. It's a shame more companies don't do demos like Vista. I am poor as dirt right now, so when I buy something expensive like a sample library, I want to know as much as possible what I'm getting into.



Agreed. I really dont know why demos are not more common. 

Its only a win for the consumer, but I guess for developers though it is a double edge sword...(ie for everyone who likes the demo, there might be more who get put off).

I think that when there is a demo, it speaks for the confidence the developer has in their product though.


----------



## Laddy

Russell Anderson said:


> it's safe to say most "want" this library, but whether someone wants to spent $300-800 on something when they already own possibly multiple string libraries is something that often takes a lot of evaluation (it certainly does for me and I'd assume the same for many others). Unless you've got a hair trigger or plenty of money for this kind of thing. For me, I'll be purchasing a new computer and probably one or both of CSS/Vista sooner than MSS, but I'll look forward to the user demos to make clearer whether this is something I should put money into, I'd be more than happy to change my mind. Aleatoric and detune? Awesome. And a host of other interesting/maybe super useful features. Musicality? A good amount, but I share some of the reservations of some of the others when I hear legatos that sound sort of like adjacent sustains - but that may be how they were written. Realism tends to be the goal for most it seems, of course, so I'll be curious to see what some of the experienced users here can make with what otherwise seems to be a very capable library.
> 
> Thanks to @FireGS for making light of some of the phase concerns; the room sound is not my favorite, but hearing it without the IRs and some different mixing may make a fan out of me yet. There is a lot to like about this library and I'd have no qualms about spending a few days exploring it and writing with it, if I could.
> 
> There's nothing like sitting down in front of the library yourself for figuring out how it works. It's a shame more companies don't do demos like Vista. I am poor as dirt right now, so when I buy something expensive like a sample library, I want to know as much as possible what I'm getting into.


Of course, I agree. It's not pocket money..


----------



## Russell Anderson

Eptesicus said:


> Agreed. I really dont know why demos are not more common.
> 
> Its only a win for the consumer, but I guess for developers though it is a double edge sword...(ie for everyone who likes the demo, there might be more who get put off).
> 
> I think that when there is a demo, it speaks for the confidence the developer has in their product though.


Notably, PS' developer goes as far as to post what he perceives to be the weaknesses of the library in clear words on the sales page. He sets the bar for transparency in my opinion, something I'd like to see out of every string developer. Not to mention how good those libraries sound.

In the end, samples are samples - so if I thought I had something that didn't just sound like the rest, I'd want everyone to try it. It does speak to confidence of the developer, but one would hope that's pretty standard for developers.


----------



## Batrawi

Batrawi said:


> There could be 2 reasons for why the legatos haven't been shown till this stage:
> 1-they're either incredibly beautiful, so they want to end the walkthrough series with it, as in the "Big Finale" or...
> 2-they're just ok or not so good, so they're releasing all other cool features first to raise our excitement bar for those features on one hand as well as to absorb our shock about the legatos on the other hand, leaving us with a final impression/subconscience of _"hey... I'm not sad about how the legatos turned out. Not everything is about legatos and there are so many cool features already so I'll buy the library anyways.."_



.....aaaaand here we go LOL🤣




Zedcars said:


> I feel like, even if the legatos aren't the best, which I think the jury is still out on, the rest of the library has so much to offer it more than makes up for it and would still be immensely useful and save a ton of time and effort in many areas of composition/mockup creation. I'm still making up my mind and haven't watched all the videos yet.


----------



## turnerofwheels

When this downloads later today I'm going to make some blind AB legato comparisons with other libraries.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Interesting thought- I loaded up my Symphony Series Strings, to play along with the Legato Demo - 
which got me thinking. 

*That library has 4 way Divisi Violins - including 2 x Violins 1 + 2 Divisi .
It has the same Divisi for the Rest of the patches - 2 way Divisi. 

Also the sustain pedal Legato feature works the same. *

The sound is very similar at certain settings - which makes me wonder. Do you think this Library is BUILT on the recordings from NI SSS ? 

That could also be why there is an agreement in place about where it was recorded. 

The NI SSS Audio Bro cross over was recorded in *Budapest*. Did we ever find out where this one was recorded? 

Regardless, I really love what I am hearing - but I really love the Symphony Series strings sound too, and I know it divides a lot of people. 

Probably I am barking up the wrong tree here, but it could make sense to start with that product, which was an Audiobro / NI crossover, and built on the way they wanted it to be. 

Someone with better ears, and better tech skills will be able to confirm or disregard this - Sorry if i am totally wrong.


----------



## Sovereign

Listened to the demos, decided I won't be buying it as I find the legatos rather underwhelming.


----------



## WinterEmerald

I also don't mind doing some dry legato examples of the sections for you guys, I could do some scales or whatever. I've not yet downloaded it but I've got the expanded legato as well.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Overall a good sound, but I'm waiting for a legato demo or video which focusses on more melodic lines in unisono.

This "phasiness" oder "synthiness" reminds me a bit of VSL strings, which isn't a bad thing (to me).


----------



## Vik

It would be interesting to hear how the A and B sections sound alone. There's 8 violin players in each violin section, so maybe they would be usable the same way we use other libraries with 8 V1s (Berlin Strings, Spitfire Studio Strings, Con Moto, Albion 2 and VSL Dimension Strings all have 8 v1s). Just some scales with medium vibrato would be helpful – ideally, for each of the instruments.


----------



## Batrawi

WinterEmerald said:


> I also don't mind doing some dry legato examples of the sections for you guys, I could do some scales or whatever. I've not yet downloaded it but I've got the expanded legato as well.



YES YES PLease... if you got the chance could you consider this:



Batrawi said:


> That said, whomever is downloading the library may I ask you to please post a simple melodic example while 1)turning off the legato auto-speed and 2)turn the speed knob all the way down to the solwest transition... that way we can get a real idea about how musical the legato is in this library
> 
> edit: oh and don't forget to turn off all onboard reverb/fx that could be causing mixing issues as FireGS noted


----------



## Russell Anderson

SHANE TURNER said:


> When this downloads later today I'm going to make some blind AB legato comparisons with other libraries.











Robert Redford Nod GIF - Robert Redford Nod Yes - Discover & Share GIFs


Click to view the GIF




tenor.com


----------



## WinterEmerald

Batrawi said:


> YES YES PLease... if you got the chance could you consider this:


Sure thing, I'll do that.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Overall a good sound, but I'm waiting for a legato demo or video which focusses on more melodic lines in unisono.
> 
> This "phasiness" oder "synthiness" reminds me a bit of VSL strings, which isn't a bad thing (to me).


I hope you've seen @FireGS comments in the thread about phase.

Starting from here:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-4764882



WinterEmerald said:


> Sure thing, I'll do that.


I don't want to make homework for new users... I think a simple line with some automation of the speed of the legato, like say a rubato "question mark" line at the end of some imaginary phrase where the legato speed slows down over time would be a really interesting thing to see. And the reverse, and yeah... Yeah. You do what you want. I will be here to Shaggy-Doo-inhale the coming exploratory content.


----------



## novaburst

N.Caffrey said:


> It sounds gorgeous!


I think also from a vidio perspective it seems like you can make the library more gorgeous by using the many functions on the player think I saw legato speed, transitions speed so much you can do to tailer you sound or to scolp you sound. 

Looking at the vids it seems you can do so much and use different combos for different affects


----------



## holywilly

How is the playability on MSS comparing with VSL’s strings? To me VSL is the best in terms of playability.


----------



## novaburst

Eptesicus said:


> Agreed. I really dont know why demos are not more common.


I think when you consider the amount of work, to get the library launched which is where the most energy is spent, then on top of that having to knock out demos I think it's is asking a lot

But Audiobro still got the legatos out and gave a intuitive understanding of of how the player works with the legato or how the legato works with the player, I think if any of us was to purchase this library I think this would be my first impression 
After checking out the vids

That the library can be tailored to your liking and sculptured and bent to your will


----------



## mushanga

Their site's down for me at the moment..






EDIT: It's back up now


----------



## FireGS

mushanga said:


> Their site's down for me at the moment..


Seems OK here. Could have been a temporary Wordpress Database connection failure.¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Russell Anderson

Yes @novaburst but, for the consumer nothing beats being able to actually feel how all those things work with a limited demo mode. Vista offering a little over one octave of the violins was really helpful for getting a feel for what the library was going to “be about”.

*In other exciting news however:*

I must agree about the legato controls - I don’t trust that the demo tracks made full use of those legato parameters. Those parameters, if honest and well-programmed, could be a _really big deal._

Between
-bowing ON/OFF
-transition volume
-transition speed (and the intuition patches!)
-and whatever degree of realistic control offered by the vibrato control

I have to say, I am really confident this library can punch up there with the best, if not better.

Really: the walkthrough showed bowed legato with transition volume boosted, which sounded like a good transition but the boosted volume gave it an unappealing attack; lower the transition volume all the way however and I think that particular bowed legato might be actually some of the best legato, from things I’ve heard in sample libraries, when everything’s all massaged right. Can’t know yet obviously! But detache is what it’s all about, and if they get that, and get it consistently... I wait with bated breath for user examples!

I am actually getting my hopes up mightily after revisiting the walkthrough and seeing what was left for us to find out with those parameters. Not to mention the intuition patches being a seemingly good answer to Legato Performance/Performance Legato on SCS.


----------



## FireGS

Still wondering what intervals are available for trills. How about tremolo speed?

Pizz?


----------



## peladio

Fidelity said:


> Your comment confirms that you're an insecure troll


Why? He's not wrong..probably 95% of sample library buyers are hobbyists and this thread is a good indicator..

Nothing wrong with that so why act insulted?


----------



## novaburst

Russell Anderson said:


> Between
> -bowing ON/OFF
> -transition volume
> -transition speed (and the intuition patches!)
> -and whatever degree of realistic control offered by the vibrato control


In this respect I think you will find quite a few different variations to get a favourite legato line, 

So the difference would be comparing with a kind of....... A and B comparison the other library being used would only have a limited playability on the legato that would perhaps be the best for that library 

But when and if compared to Audiobro the new library is offering quite a few ways to play legato and quite a few variations of legato plus your own tailored legato I think from viewing the vids it can get pretty deep. 

So the standard legato is not necessarily the best one to use,


----------



## Casiquire

I tried to give it a pretty careful listen before commenting and gave it a whole night to sleep on it. I think i really will need to pick this one up. I think people say "legato" when they mean "expression" particularly when referring to CSS, and in that light, i think some of the legato comments make sense. This library doesn't seem to have a full molto vibrato sound but a subtler one so the expression is a little gentler, but the legato itself sounds great to my ears particularly in "Lullaby for a Dying Planet" where it's slower.

I agree with the comments that the demos may not have used all the expressive possibilities. I'm thinking specifically about the way LASS has an expressive swell which lends itself well to emotional playing styles, and MSS has a legato with a swell also.

The sound itself is extremely pretty and seems to get better the closer it gets. I'm not hearing any VSL whatsoever and i listened to MSS demos side by side with VSL. If a comparison had to be made I'd say it's closer to Nashville SS with that tight modern sound but a killer feature set.

One other highlight for me is the way that the library gets this massive sound from playing FF and doing runs or short stabs. These moments seem to electrify the room. Maybe the room is better suited for that style, like Alley and Toric

Idk people, I'm hearing something pretty great.


----------



## peladio

muziksculp said:


> There you go.


I agree with @Christof..it does sound synthy and the tone reminds me of NISS which isn't good thing at all

Also with all due respect..he's a professional cellist so I'd be more inclined to trust his judgement than of a self-proclaimed 'strings library addict'..

But I'll keep and open mind for future walkthroughs by unbiased guys like Cory Pelizzari and Daniel James..and I'd be very curious to hear @re-peat's thoughts..


----------



## Noc

Unbelievable – I go to bed and wake up to find five whole new pages of posts, and _not one person_ has yet posted any demos or A/B comparisons with other libraries? By comparison, when CSW was launched the thread almost instantly filled up with demos within a couple hours. Is everyone who has MSS too wowed (or horrified) by the sound?


----------



## Lazer42

Casiquire said:


> I tried to give it a pretty careful listen before commenting and gave it a whole night to sleep on it. I think i really will need to pick this one up. I think people say "legato" when they mean "expression" particularly when referring to CSS, and in that light, i think some of the legato comments make sense. This library doesn't seem to have a full molto vibrato sound but a subtler one so the expression is a little gentler, but the legato itself sounds great to my ears particularly in "Lullaby for a Dying Planet" where it's slower.
> 
> I agree with the comments that the demos may not have used all the expressive possibilities. I'm thinking specifically about the way LASS has an expressive swell which lends itself well to emotional playing styles, and MSS has a legato with a swell also.
> 
> The sound itself is extremely pretty and seems to get better the closer it gets. I'm not hearing any VSL whatsoever and i listened to MSS demos side by side with VSL. If a comparison had to be made I'd say it's closer to Nashville SS with that tight modern sound but a killer feature set.
> 
> One other highlight for me is the way that the library gets this massive sound from playing FF and doing runs or short stabs. These moments seem to electrify the room. Maybe the room is better suited for that style, like Alley and Toric
> 
> Idk people, I'm hearing something pretty great.


I can't speak for everybody, but when I talk about legato patches, I'm not even necessarily referring to the transitions between notes but rather to what might collectively be called "non-shorts/FX" in general. In other words, any kind of patches used for any kind of slow, medium, or fast-but-not-too-fast lines, including longs, sustains, patches with legato transitions, etc. Put differently still, any patches where you can or will hear a single continuous note for ~1 second or longer. 

To me, these do sound "synthy" in (some, but not all) the demos and overview videos for MSS - but I would NOT say they sound like they are lacking expression. I think the expressiveness sounds fine to good/great; I just think it also sounds fake - at least from what I've heard so far.


----------



## Casiquire

peladio said:


> I agree with @Christof..it does sound synthy and the tone reminds me of NISS which isn't good thing at all
> 
> Also with all due respect..he's a professional cellist so I'd be more inclined to trust his judgement than of a self-proclaimed 'strings library addict'..
> 
> But I'll keep and open mind for future walkthroughs by unbiased guys like Cory Pelizzari and Daniel James..and I'd be very curious to hear @re-peat's thoughts..


I do love to hear opinions from people who play the instrument, but it's worth note that they pay attention to very different things than the rest of listeners do. I always ask myself, am i trying to convince a string player or am i trying to achieve just the right sound? Those two goals may be at odds. I've seen professional players of particular instruments praise really awful sounding libraries in the past because they have a particular set of features that only a professional player would notice, so it stands out to them as very authentic from where they're sitting, but sometimes that comes at the expense of the bigger picture. And I'm absolutely not referring to any particular person or anyone in this thread when I say that. Just offering perspective.


----------



## dzilizzi

zolhof said:


> Audiobro delivers a professional library with a feature set and price unmatched by anything else in existence and the basement-dwelling, all-day pajama wearing, armchair activists still gotta find things to complain about. EIGHT different demo tracks isn't good enough... it's synthy... legatos are not impressive... the room sucks. Some people won't be happy unless you hand them a piece of alien technology that summons the best session players, alive or dead (keyswitchable leaders: Paganini, Sarasate, Hindemith, Stamitz, Boccherini) in every conceivable stage option and even then I have a feeling that we would read complaints about shortcomings that lie within the user, not the library.


We have to find reasons to not want to buy it. If it does everything and sounds great, we have no choice and have to buy. 

But I have 5  10 15 oh heck, a lot of string libraries and this is pricey. So I need a reason to feel good about saying "No, I don't need this one" even if part of me wants it.....


----------



## FireGS

Casiquire said:


> am i trying to convince a string player or am i trying to achieve just the right sound? Those two goals may be at odds.


Not usually, and I think you'd find that if it sounds good to a string player, it'll sound right otherwise. There are exceptions, though


----------



## Casiquire

FireGS said:


> Not usually, and I think you'd find that if it sounds good to a string player, it'll sound right otherwise. There are exceptions, though


That has not necessarily been my experience


----------



## soulofsound

Lazer42 said:


> To me, these do sound "synthy" in (some, but not all) the demos and overview videos for MSS - but I would NOT say they sound like they are lacking expression. I think the expressiveness sounds fine to good/great; I just think it also sounds fake - at least from what I've heard so far.


Imo that's the eq in Kontakt which you can turn off.


----------



## richhickey

String players: must spend > 10 years learning to be able to play legato transitions you can't hear

VI-C: can't spend 10 seconds waiting to "hear the legatos"

🤷‍♂️

Whenever someone has this downloaded and tried it, *please, please start a new thread* for actual experience reports, this demo cork sniffing is unbearable.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Casiquire said:


> I tried to give it a pretty careful listen before commenting and gave it a whole night to sleep on it. I think i really will need to pick this one up. I think people say "legato" when they mean "expression" particularly when referring to CSS, and in that light, i think some of the legato comments make sense. This library doesn't seem to have a full molto vibrato sound but a subtler one so the expression is a little gentler, but the legato itself sounds great to my ears particularly in "Lullaby for a Dying Planet" where it's slower.
> 
> I agree with the comments that the demos may not have used all the expressive possibilities. I'm thinking specifically about the way LASS has an expressive swell which lends itself well to emotional playing styles, and MSS has a legato with a swell also.
> 
> The sound itself is extremely pretty and seems to get better the closer it gets. I'm not hearing any VSL whatsoever and i listened to MSS demos side by side with VSL. If a comparison had to be made I'd say it's closer to Nashville SS with that tight modern sound but a killer feature set.
> 
> One other highlight for me is the way that the library gets this massive sound from playing FF and doing runs or short stabs. These moments seem to electrify the room. Maybe the room is better suited for that style, like Alley and Toric
> 
> Idk people, I'm hearing something pretty great.


I am finding “At Long Last” to be a good sounding demo as well, aside from the stately FEFGG at 1:15 which I think needed a different attack (should be doable). I really think people are hearing some of these parts of writing and thinking, “the legato isn’t good” when they’re hearing areas which were either artistic disagreement or not-as-thoroughly-programmed midi.

I’m actually expecting great things from this library, folks. I’m changing my tune. I may actually go for it during Black Friday. And assuming I have money, maybe Vista for the molto and in your face expressive sound it seems to share with CSS albeit to my ear a bit more pronounced. Between SCS, AROne(+aperture) and possibly MSS I should be set for everything non-legato. Or else, here we go down the slope of being yet another library addict lol


----------



## BasariStudios

Can we all for the Love of God just get back to the Hoopus Thread now?


----------



## jonnybutter

MSS is a no brainer for me. Love it. Nice job Audiobro.


----------



## ism

Casiquire said:


> I think people say "legato" when they mean "expression" particularly when referring to CSS, and in that light, i think some of the legato comments make sense. This library doesn't seem to have a full molto vibrato sound but a subtler one so the expression is a little gentler, but the legato itself sounds great to my ears particularly in "Lullaby for a Dying Planet" where it's slower.




Exactly this. 

I was never going to buy this library, too dry, too “LA”. But I also think that I genuinely hear something new it what it can do. That it’s definitely not CSS is to be celebrated. 

I don’t like the room tone, or the built in reverb, but same with Genesis. But a couple of days working out how to add my own reverb and Genesis became one of my favorite libraries of all time. I’d love to know what this would sound like with more or less the same kind of external reverb I use with Genesis. 

I’m thinking seriously of the legato expansions though, at some point. The demo with sordino legatos has some breath taking moments. Expressiveness I’ve never heard in sample libraries before. And I’m dying to hear the sul tasto.


----------



## FireGS

OK. Wife said yes. Downloading now. Will report.


----------



## Zedcars

FireGS said:


> OK. Wife said yes. Downloading now. Will report.


What persuaded her? Flowers, chocolates...something else?


----------



## FireGS

Zedcars said:


> What persuaded her? Flowers, chocolates...something else?


A gentleman never kisses and tells..........or do they?


----------



## Russell Anderson

I know what people are saying about synthiness, I think. For me it came down to two things:

1) Note transitions
2) Room sound and clarity

With fixes for phase (i.e. careful mic mixing + not using their... unfortunate reverbs, and using some reverb hygeine) as well as what appears to be an enormous bank of controls for expressiveness of the legatos, I think the power is in your hands. The demos don’t all show it, but some do.

One concession is that the sound isn’t very clear, it’s true it’s not a piece of glass like SCS. But two things on that as well - for one, the demos clearly make great use of that as a feature, not a bug. And for two, for what of it that IS undesired, fixing phase related to mic + reverb mixing (as you would normally do) as pointed out by FireGS a few pages back will likely go a good ways to making what you hear more to your liking. Additionally, soloists are included in the library and further processing has before improved the sound and even clarity of libraries like CSS rather dramatically. I can find the example thread if anyone wants to press for it. 

Can’t wait to hear user music demos/comparisons. Please _dig all the way in for awhiiiile_ on those legato controls: bowing, transition volume + speed, and even vibrato. It all matters.


----------



## Russell Anderson

FireGS said:


> OK. Wife said yes. Downloading now. Will report.


I’m following this thread now with heightened determination

Also, congratulations.


----------



## dzilizzi

Noc said:


> Unbelievable – I go to bed and wake up to find five whole new pages of posts, and _not one person_ has yet posted any demos or A/B comparisons with other libraries? By comparison, when CSW was launched the thread almost instantly filled up with demos within a couple hours. Is everyone who has MSS too wowed (or horrified) by the sound?


probably still downloading....


----------



## FireGS

Russell Anderson said:


> I’m following this thread now with heightened determination
> 
> Also, congratulations.


Thank you! We'll see! I already have a piece I'm working on that has a soli viola part, and I have it going with a few different libraries. I'll probably do a blind test on that line, and see the reactions.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> I'm not hearing any VSL whatsoever and i listened to MSS demos side by side with VSL.


Are you referring to my comment? I didn't mean it that way, but I'm so not sure what I really meant anyway.

I think your comment on the lighter side of the vibrato might go into this direction. And "synthy" might be the wrong term, it's more like "VSL-style-sterile". But of course, it's a totally different sound.

And I totally agree with your point on legato and expression.


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> look forward to watch, and listen to some independent video reviews, and detailed walkthroughs of MSS in the coming days.


And there I was waiting on you to share some demos of how it should be done, oh I guess it will need to be someone else's


----------



## Eptesicus

From what I'm hearing intially I think it does a better job than vsl synchron/Berlin Symphonic. 

I dont think its quite up there with CSS or PS stuff for realism/expressiveness but I'm open to my mind changing on that if someone can blow me away with a user demo!

If I didn't have CSS or HS I would buy this in an instant simply for the content.


----------



## N.Caffrey

honestly, not hearing this synth-y sound some are talking about. genuinely impressed by how comprehensive this library is, must have been so difficult to put everything together.


----------



## Trevor Meier

I'd really like to hear more of single divisi sections, to hear how MSS sounds closer to chamber-sized


----------



## Russell Anderson

Eptesicus said:


> From what I'm hearing intially I think it does a better job than vsl synchron/Berlin Symphonic.
> 
> I dont think its quite up there with CSS or PS stuff for realism/expressiveness but I'm open to my mind changing on that if someone can blow me away with a user demo!
> 
> If I didn't have CSS or HS I would buy this in an instant simply for the content.


I know what you mean, on all accounts. Because of the walkthrough having left Transition Volume high and speed set to auto, and a few listens on the demo tracks (notably for me “At Long Last”; comparing with a few demos from Vista/CSS and a yt vid comparing the two) I’m actually thinking it might be playing on the same level of realism as CSS when the library is massaged. It comes down to the realism of the bowed legato and the accompanying legato parameters for me, namely (especially for the bowed) transvolume + speed.

I think @Casiquire made a good point in mentioning the lack of molto vibrato; it doesn’t mean it automatically can’t be as real as a result (not saying that’s the sole deciding factor for you, but assuming what I said above about legato actually proves to hold up) but just that the library will have a different set of strengths but be equally capable of those. Namely, ...probably everything besides molto, depending on your opinion of the shorts/else.


----------



## novaburst

dzilizzi said:


> We have to find reasons to not want to buy it. If it does everything and sounds great, we have no choice and have to buy.


I think this is a very true comment but I think the word we should be removed, 

I think especially the price its your cash and only you can make the choice at the end of the day, 

But I think these arguments are so so common in forums these days in the end some will miss out and some will gain, some will say wow some will say nar not for me and I have often said if we all are barking up the same tree then some thing is very wrong

We all have very different taste in how we want our music to sound and I think it's called variety, mixture variation, 

And I guess that's it but we can all learn from each other, but we want all agree with each other


----------



## FireGS

Casiquire said:


> I think people say "legato" when they mean "expression" particularly when referring to CSS, and in that light, i think some of the legato comments make sense. This library doesn't seem to have a full molto vibrato sound but a subtler one so the expression is a little gentler, but the legato itself sounds great to my ears particularly in "Lullaby for a Dying Planet" where it's slower.


Yeah, I'm not even a string player and this bothers me a lot. Legato is a purposeful connection of notes in a passage. Similar to gliss and port, legato SHALL BE USED ON PURPOSE. Expression has **ZERO** to do with legato. Expression/dynamics have nothing to do with bow direction, bow changes, or legato.

You can legato at ppp, or FFF. Either way, eventually, the bow has to change directions, or the note has to change. Either way, that change can happen at any dynamic level (or expression level?)

If you find yourself putting legato transitions between every note, you just don't know how strings (or any instrument really) plays. I'll die on this hill, idgaf.


----------



## muziksculp

lettucehat said:


> Yeah, either way, after all of this wait you didn't even watch the videos everyone's been waiting for - incredible!


LOL.. That's what I will be doing today.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> OK. Wife said yes. Downloading now. Will report.


_*Congratulations ! *_

Please post some feedback on the Mics, Legatos, shorts, sordinos, ..etc.

Thanks.


----------



## chapbot

FireGS said:


> I think there's a mixing issue happening here. I just dragged the audio from the Legato video into a DAW to check out the phase correlation.
> 
> This is a part of the opening piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is from the first example of Violins:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, by comparison, the solo violin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice a whole lot less phase? Also notice how that sounds much drier than the section? And now solo violin + ensemble:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phase is back.
> 
> I think their onboard reverb is causing a LOT of phase issues and is a major factor to the issue with the sound we don't like. I'll provide some more screenshots.


Excellent forensics! Why on Earth would anybody use the built-in reverb on a expensive library anyway?


----------



## EspenH

Hey! I was wondering if someone could help me out. I'm trying to use the expression maps like in the video, but it doesn't change articulation.
Anyone have the same issue? I'm new to expression maps so maybe I'm doing something wrong, although I did do exactly like he does in the video.
Loading the expression map also creates intense lag for me in Cubase :/
I am loving this library though, sounds great!!


----------



## TintoL

Christof said:


> The legato sound in the video isn't convincing to me, sounds a bit synthy and artificial.
> Is this only me?
> What do you think?


You are not the only one. I am not convinced by the legato fast specifically. The intuition patches show extensive use of the fast legato and I find it doesn't hold well. IMHO.

Nevertheless, all the rest of the features are amazing.


----------



## ChristianM

FireGS said:


> Again, violins.
> 
> One accented fortissimo note:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Violas, not so bad, considering they're recorded center, but the reverb is still causing some phase issues on the attacks:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Celli:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basses:


OK…
Can you try with a real violin now ?


----------



## FireGS

ChristianM said:


> OK…
> Can you try with a real violin now ?


Sure!






View attachment RealViolin.mp3


----------



## Paul Jelfs

I think threads like this and the CSW or whatever thread about the tone /legatos shows is that what is synthy to one is not synthy to others.

And I don’t think it’s anything to do with ability , or experience - There are so many different factors at play with a string ensemble , that what is the ultimate for one , will not be the ultimate for another composer.

Hell , people spend thousands on a single guitar for the tone , Disagreeing on which is best - imagine buying 60 guitars , with 60 different players , with a different hall to the ones used last time , to different mics , to different preamps ; 

It’s easy to see why there will never be a single string library that blows everyone away - besides if sample libraries were like that , we would end up with 1 library for each instrument.

now saying this there are libraries that most agree are just bad and do not sound convincing at all .

And until we find a better way to translate real players to a midi keyboard there will be all the phasing , bumpy transitions etc that need to be a compromise.

It’s clear is a very capable library - and for me personally sounds great , although close to what I already have with NI SSS .

like others have said it will be much easier to get a full understanding when someone who knows what they are doing does a full walkthrough , with a better Reverb.

Finally , it’s worth considering how much you enjoy working on crafting the sound as this library has an insane amount of CC controls .

If you are someone that likes really quick results , then the library probably is not for you regardless of what you think of the sound .

Basically it feels like the debate over Modern Brass again ! In the right hands it will sound stunning I bet .


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> _*Congratulations ! *_
> 
> Please post some feedback one the Mics, Legatos, shorts, sordinos, ..etc.
> 
> Thanks.








#notbad


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I agree that people use legato 100% of the time for some odd reason, I'd like to assume out of laziness - but at that point, sustains are my lazy legato /shrug


----------



## FireGS

ProfoundSilence said:


> I agree that people use legato 100% of the time for some odd reason, I'd like to assume out of laziness - but at that point, sustains are my lazy legato /shrug


I think its the same trap I fell into. My trap was, OK, this is a recorded transition, therefore it must sound more real than a sustain patch. It isn't. Simple as that.


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> Yeah, I'm not even a string player and this bothers me a lot. Legato is a purposeful connection of notes in a passage. Similar to gliss and port, legato SHALL BE USED ON PURPOSE. Expression has **ZERO** to do with legato. Expression/dynamics have nothing to do with bow direction, bow changes, or legato.
> 
> You can legato at ppp, or FFF. Either way, eventually, the bow has to change directions, or the note has to change. Either way, that change can happen at any dynamic level (or expression level?)
> 
> If you find yourself putting legato transitions between every note, you just don't know how strings (or any instrument really) plays. I'll die on this hill, idgaf.


@FireGS and @Casiquire... your perceptions & underestimation of legato really disappoints me... both of you... you're grounded here https://vi-control.net/community/threads/legato-is-overrated-poll-added.100097/


----------



## JohannesR

Bought, downloaded and gave it a very brief 5 minutes (under a deadline so no time for noodling).

Be aware that this library is recorded dry which surprised me (admittedly, I didn’t watch all the videos).The hall sound is artificial reverb.

I could be wrong of course, but I get an instant Eastern Europe vibe from the library without any effects; Budapest, Prague etc. Not a bad thing by any stretch, but it’s good to know what you’re buying into.


----------



## jaketanner

Always so hard to judge a library simply by the demos...however, I believe developers know this, and it's up to them to make the demos show the library at its best, but for some reason most of them always miss the mark...the library usually sounds either better or worse. So far I much prefer the sound of BSS, and for the price for a new customer, may not be worth it to be the guinea pig...LOL


----------



## FireGS

Batrawi said:


> @FireGS and @Casiquire... your perceptions & underestimation of legato really disappoints me... both of you... you're grounded here https://vi-control.net/community/threads/legato-is-overrated-poll-added.100097/


Cant tell if kidding or not. Kidding? Cause I'll go OFF on this...


----------



## muziksculp

peladio said:


> Also with all due respect..he's a professional cellist so I'd be more inclined to trust his judgement than of a self-proclaimed 'strings library addict'..


----------



## Casiquire

ProfoundSilence said:


> I agree that people use legato 100% of the time for some odd reason, I'd like to assume out of laziness - but at that point, sustains are my lazy legato /shrug


I occasionally do it out of laziness if it's simple lines lol



jaketanner said:


> Always so hard to judge a library simply by the demos...however, I believe developers know this, and it's up to them to make the demos show the library at its best, but for some reason most of them always miss the mark...the library usually sounds either better or worse. So far I much prefer the sound of BSS, and for the price for a new customer, may not be worth it to be the guinea pig...LOL


Interesting, i MUCH prefer this sound over BSS, though i did like the sound of BSS too. This is much more focused but still warm.



JohannesR said:


> Be aware that this library is recorded dry which surprised me (admittedly, I didn’t watch all the videos).The hall sound is artificial reverb.


That's actually what i WANTED to hear!


----------



## FireGS

Casiquire said:


> Interesting, i MUCH prefer this sound over BSS, though i did like the sound of BSS too. This is much more focused but still warm.


I'm with you. I think I'm just "over" the huge player section size thing. More players tend to lack definition, and unless it's REALLY well sampled (to the likes which I've yet to hear), the big player counts just have a wall-o-sound effect.


----------



## Evans

Paul Jelfs said:


> Basically it feels like the debate over Modern Brass again ! In the right hands it will sound stunning I bet .


Disclaimer: I am not "the right hands." I play guitar, a little bit of piano (not daily for almost 20 years), and have had limited, professional use for brass and brass ensemble VIs. Still, I picked up Modern Scoring Brass for curiosity/hobby/potential.

I have not incorporated MSB into a project mixed with other libraries, but have spent a few evenings learning the tools and getting all my controls reassigned, my reverb and EQ set up, etc. Some instruments clicked right away. Some, I _*quite *_disliked at first. Even those that I disliked at first have grown on me, to an extent.

There are still many things that I don't like about MSB, but there are far more things I _do_ like than I would have said in my first hour with it.

*The moral of the story *is that first impressions - mine, at least - are unfortunately impactful to long-term perceptions despite how incredibly brief they can be.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

It's crazy how many string libraries some people own. I haven't touched a new string library since CSS. Not that I wouldn't, though lol


----------



## Toecutter

FireGS said:


> Well, one has to understand that stereo width is what's at odds here. Those close mics are very directional, and has little (but not none) room bleed. The further back, and wider you get, the more phase will be introduced, no matter what.


Thanks for the ozone readings but isn't that true with every library that blends room sound with IR? That's why I turn all that crap off and think the walkthroughs should have been done without additional reverb. I don't hear the issue in some of the demos, probably because the composers came to the same conclusion.


----------



## jamwerks

Pretty awesome: Standard library + Extended arts library + Solo's library + Run library + Ostinato library + Aleatoric library + Intuition library, great deal imo.

Wasn't crazy about the sound of the surround mic's on the tutorial video, not flattering imo and seemed to have a strange kind of direct signal mixed in. Not an engineer, but those mic's are probably close to the Main's but facing other direction. Anyway not a problem imo, just use Main's + close as wanted.


----------



## FireGS

Toecutter said:


> Thanks for the ozone readings but isn't that true with every library that blends room sound with IR? That's why I turn all that crap off and think the walkthroughs should have been done without additional reverb. I don't hear the issue in some of the demos, probably because the composers came to the same conclusion.


100%, man. I didn't post those readings as a knock to the library, but perhaps to help people understand the main issue (i feel) with the demo videos. Room sound + IR with ER = bad. Disable and do to your liking = good! The ability to have either? Best.

Ninja edit: wow, this batch resave is taking a while.


----------



## Toecutter

mcalis said:


> I don't necessarily think the room is the issue. If it is indeed Sofia, then that should be the same place Afflatus was recorded, afaik, which everyone (except me) seems to love the sound of. Again, all examples of close mics sound quite good to me.


I thought it was recorded in the same place as Genesis? And Genesis is in the same room as NI Audiobro strings. I forgot the name of the place and need to search the posts again but I'm quite sure it's not Sofia. Where you got that?


----------



## dxmachina

Tried to sleep for a couple hours.

Did I miss anything?


----------



## Lazer42

FireGS said:


> Cant tell if kidding or not. Kidding? Cause I'll go OFF on this...


Without intending to ask for a full on thesis on the topic, I am curious as to what your opinion is on this. 

I would agree with the view that using legatos _100% of the time_ is not quite right or realistic, of course. I'd also agree that sometimes a sustain patch without any legato transitions can work well or sound better than a legato patch even in cases where a legato transition is what real players would be employing for a given passage. 

Where I'd strongly disagree is with the view (and I don't intend to ascribe this to you if you don't in fact believe it) that legato transitions are not at times extremely important, and with the view that playing with some kind of legato transitions is not used much of the time in real performances - even most of the time for certain sorts of music. 

On the former point, consider for instance the french horn melodic line from the Star Trek First Contact theme. Trying to produce that line with a regular sustain patch vs. a legato transition patch sounds completely different and to me it's a clear case where one really cannot substitute for the other.

On the latter, we just need to go through some orchestral scores and see all the slurs. Are there examples without too many of them? Sure - but it's of course not hard to find them in abundance, either. Is it possible to do some of this music justice using only sustain patches? Absolutely - but at the same time a good legato patch is going to more faithfully produce the sound called for by the composer. So given the choice between a good sustain patch and a bad legato patch, I'd take the good sustain patch - but I'd also rather have the good legato patch, and at times one really cannot substitute.


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> Cant tell if kidding or not. Kidding? Cause I'll go OFF on this...


of course not kidding. I use legatos in every inch in my music... even between pauses, I use legato (but turn the volume all down)

kidding aside, I 100% agree with you that legato should NOT be overused and one SHOULD know when and how to use it. However that's no excuse that it MUST sound excellent when used


----------



## Frederick

I was very impressed by FireGS' use of Ozone Advanced that I finally got the iZotope Tone Balance bundle today (upgrade from Music Maker bundle).


----------



## FireGS

Frederick said:


> I was very impressed by FireGS' use of Ozone Advanced that I finally got the iZotope Tone Balance bundle today (upgrade from Music Maker bundle).


Finder's fee? Commission? No...? I'll see myself out.


----------



## jazzman7

FireGS said:


> I think there's a mixing issue happening here. I just dragged the audio from the Legato video into a DAW to check out the phase correlation.
> 
> This is a part of the opening piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is from the first example of Violins:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, by comparison, the solo violin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice a whole lot less phase? Also notice how that sounds much drier than the section? And now solo violin + ensemble:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phase is back.
> 
> I think their onboard reverb is causing a LOT of phase issues and is a major factor to the issue with the sound we don't like. I'll provide some more screenshots.


Excellent work! Before seeing this, I noticed that the solo violin had really sounded like the best of what I heard. Interesting to see this


----------



## muziksculp

dxmachina said:


> Tried to sleep for a couple hours.
> 
> Did I miss anything?


Thanks, and Congratulations !

Will you be posting more MSS videos ?


----------



## FireGS

Lazer42 said:


> I would agree with the view that using legatos _100% of the time_ is not quite right or realistic, of course. I'd also agree that sometimes a sustain patch without any legato transitions can work well or sound better than a legato patch even in cases where a legato transition is what real players would be employing for a given passage.


Yes. Think of how the player is actually bowing whatever you're writing. Does a sustain patch work? Are there slow passages with a new bow stroke for every note? Sustain patch will work fine.


Lazer42 said:


> Where I'd strongly disagree is with the view (and I don't intend to ascribe this to you if you don't in fact believe it) that legato transitions are not at times extremely important, and with the view that playing with some kind of legato transitions is not used much of the time in real performances - even most of the time for certain sorts of music.


No, they are extremely important, but they should be used on absolute purpose. They give movement to a passage, but if overused (thats the key), the "effect" of the connected notes is lost, and any semblance of direction of the passage is lost - its all the same articulation. The only instance where this mayyy be OK is if you have truely sampled bow change legato that can be interchanged with slurred legato and maybe port/gliss. Also important is repeated notes/bowchange - the only reason I'm not still using HS Diamond is the lack of rebowed technique.


Lazer42 said:


> On the former point, consider for instance the french horn melodic line from the Star Trek First Contact theme. Trying to produce that line with a regular sustain patch vs. a legato transition patch sounds completely different and to me it's a clear case where one really cannot substitute for the other.


Ideally, i'd use a legato patch with precise care taken for breaths, and retonguing notes. Taking a small (SMALL) pause for a breath, or a purposeful retongue breaking the legato line is both realistic, and I'm SURE how the original is/was played. Careful listening will tell.



Lazer42 said:


> On the latter, we just need to go through some orchestral scores and see all the slurs.


If you're mocking up an existing work? 100000% yes, this, do this. Or at least consult with the reference track and A/B the hell out of it and take notes where bow changes are, retongues, etc.

Ninja edit #2: I think this batch resave is taking longer than the download. Lawwdy!


----------



## BasariStudios

Ok...can someone please come up with a justification 
for me to buy this? I am struggling the whole morning
to come up with something but not so creative today.


----------



## mojamusic

Let’s go with the user demos!


----------



## FireGS

BasariStudios said:


> Ok...can someone please come up with a justification
> for me to buy this? I am struggling the whole morning
> to come up with something but not so creative today.


Nope. That's for you. <3


----------



## ned3000

Just played through some of the patches in MSS and my first impression is pretty positive. Really liking the sound of the violins/violas/cellos; not 100% on the basses though. Playability is good; tone is good. All the various options seem to make meaningful and useful changes (haven't delved fully into all that yet though). Legato seems to work very well; the portamento is nice (kind of reminds me of LASS).

It's a bit on the wet side (even the close mics have some room in them), but generally I prefer that to super dry samples. Overall I like the sound of the room, even if it's not quite as engaging as something like the Spitfire Air recording.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Dx Machina ; Are you allowed to say if this library was built on the foundations of String Ensemble Symphony Series with Native Instruments ? 

Totally understandable if either you cannot, or will not and I am not trying to stir anything up - as I personally Love the library, and will no doubt be buying it! 

Even if not, The library you did with Native Instruments is still one of my favourites - and I love the control over so many variables. 

Either way, all the best with the new release and good luck ; Though I think the fact this thread is over 100+ pages long is already like you have earned a PLATINUM ALBUM. 

Can we make that an official thing on VI Control ? 

Silver 50 pages, Gold 75, Platinum 100 + !!!


----------



## FireGS

Paul Jelfs said:


> Can we make that an official thing on VI Control ?
> 
> Silver 50 pages, Gold 75, Platinum 100 + !!!


Only if we all get points for contributing to the thread.


----------



## feck

Wow, VI Control is starting to resemble a metal guitar forum these days - dozens of pages about people fawning over the release as if it's an oxygen tank to a scuba diver. 

Then once it's released, dozens more posts about legato and room sounds based on someone else's demos and performances. I can tell you that for the hundreds of commercial cues I've sold, not ONE client has ever come to me and said "you know, we'd use your cue if it just weren't for the less-than-perfect room sound....and those legato transitions, they've GOTTA go". 

If you can't get a realistic, beautiful sounding performance out of these samples, then the samples aren't your problem.


----------



## BasariStudios

FireGS said:


> Nope. That's for you. <3


Did your download finish yet? Come on record something.


----------



## FireGS

BasariStudios said:


> Did your download finish yet? Come on record something.


Man, I'm dying to try it out. The download finished an hour ago. The batch resave? On-going, but almost done:


----------



## Zedcars

FireGS said:


> Man, I'm dying to try it out. The download finished an hour ago. The batch resave? On-going, but almost done:


Batch resave? But that’s your priority, not ours! It still plays without that...Some people are so selfish!


----------



## muziksculp

@FireGS ,

Did you buy the Full package ? MSS with Expanded Legato library ? 

AudioBro has not posted any videos yet showing the Exp. Legato libary, maybe they will, but if you have some time once you get acquainted with the library, some feedback on the expansion would be helpful. 

Thanks.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> @FireGS ,
> 
> Did you buy the Full package ? MSS with Expanded Legato library ?
> 
> AudioBro has not posted any videos yet showing the Exp. Legato libary, maybe they will, but if you have some time once you get acquainted with the library, some feedback on the expansion would be helpful.
> 
> Thanks.


Wife only OK'd Main library for now :(


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Wife only OK'd Main library for now :(


OK. So, just feedback on the main library will be great. 

Thanks.


----------



## TintoL

FireGS said:


> Wife only OK'd Main library for now :(


You are a lucky guy. I am not even trying convincing my wife. I don't want her to fire me...


----------



## FireGS

TintoL said:


> You are a lucky guy. I am not even trying convincing my wife. I don't want her to fire me...


I can tell shes not thrilled about it, generally speaking, but hey, what is love?


----------



## Alex Niedt

Lazer42 said:


> Where I'd strongly disagree is with the view (and I don't intend to ascribe this to you if you don't in fact believe it) that legato transitions are not at times extremely important, and with the view that playing with some kind of legato transitions is not used much of the time in real performances - even most of the time for certain sorts of music.


Agree 100%. Legato is the first place most mock-ups absolutely crumble in lyrical work, either because of poor implementation in libraries or the user's lack of understanding of how bowings, slurs, etc. work. Often an issue of both. The downplaying of legato is really strange, to me. I understand a lot of people aren't making melodic/lyrical work, but there is nothing more important in that context than the way the notes connect. Imagine trying to make something like the Andantino doucement expressif from Debussy's String Quartet in G major with a sustains patch, LOL


----------



## dxmachina

> Will you be posting more MSS videos ?


Yes, and we do read the feedback. But probably will be a few days before we can stomach opening the screen capture again.



> Dx Machina ; Are you allowed to say if this library was built on the foundations of String Ensemble Symphony Series with Native Instruments ?



This one is easy... absolutely not. This is a brand new library (aside from that pesky LASS solo viola).


----------



## muziksculp

For those who are getting, or already purchased MSS, and have LASS 2.5, maybe some feedback on how they compare sonically would be interesting. Especially MSS used via Close Mics, and High-Quality Reverb. 

Also curious if MSS will replace LASS 2.5 in your template ?


----------



## FireGS

Alex Niedt said:


> Agree 100%. Legato is the first place most mock-ups absolutely crumble in lyrical work, either because of poor implementation in libraries or the user's lack of understanding of how bowings, slurs, etc. work. Often an issue of both. The downplaying of legato is really strange, to me. I understand a lot of people aren't making melodic/lyrical work, but there is nothing more important in that context than the way the notes connect. Imagine trying to make something like the Andantino doucement expressif from Debussy's String Quartet in G major with a sustains patch, LOL


Can't "like" this enough. I think its important to note that not ALL notes should connect via legato. It depends wholly on the music at hand, how its notated, etc. It has its use, and should be used when appropriately. Not just everywhere. And not nowhere.


----------



## maestro2be

FireGS said:


> Can't "like" this enough. I think its important to note that not ALL notes should connect via legato. It depends wholly on the music at hand, how its notated, etc. It has its use, and should be used when appropriately. Not just everywhere. And not nowhere.


How can you type and create demos at the same time? I need this skill set 😁


----------



## Pablocrespo

dxmachina said:


> Yes, and we do read the feedback. But probably will be a few days before we can stomach opening the screen capture again.
> 
> 
> 
> This one is easy... absolutely not. This is a brand new library (aside from that pesky LASS solo viola).


Just some melodies in soundcloud would work..jeje

again congrats...a monumental piece of work!


----------



## FireGS

maestro2be said:


> How can you type and create demos at the same time? I need this skill set 😁


This resave.... I have nothing else to do..


----------



## BasariStudios

TintoL said:


> You are a lucky guy. I am not even trying convincing my wife. I don't want her to fire me...


People need to ask their wives?


----------



## FireGS

BasariStudios said:


> People need to ask their wives?


If you value their opinion on large financial decisions, yes


----------



## Batrawi

Alex Niedt said:


> I understand a lot of people aren't making melodic/lyrical work, but there is nothing more important in that context than the way the notes connect.


Exactly! We need letters(sustains) to create a word, but we also absolutely need syllables(quality legatos) to pronounce the word..


----------



## BasariStudios

FireGS said:


> If you value their opinion on large financial decisions, yes


Well maybe i worded wrong. My wife is a Musician, she was the one
who pushed me to buy the ARP 2600 last year and every other 
purchase i've made but...that is mostly Pro Opinion of hers and
not financial one. I confused that with a Pro Opinion from a wife
who for example is not a musician...financial is a different story.


----------



## TintoL

BasariStudios said:


> People need to ask their wives?


Absolutely. full transparency. Specially if we are both investors....


----------



## Lazer42

feck said:


> Wow, VI Control is starting to resemble a metal guitar forum these days - dozens of pages about people fawning over the release as if it's an oxygen tank to a scuba diver.
> 
> Then once it's released, dozens more posts about legato and room sounds based on someone else's demos and performances. I can tell you that for the hundreds of commercial cues I've sold, not ONE client has ever come to me and said "you know, we'd use your cue if it just weren't for the less-than-perfect room sound....and those legato transitions, they've GOTTA go".
> 
> If you can't get a realistic, beautiful sounding performance out of these samples, then the samples aren't your problem.


I think there's an important distinction to be made here. You very correctly hit on the fact that the bottom line is whether one can get a realistic and appealing sound from the library and obsessing over the details of reverb or how _exactly_ the legato transitions sound misses the point; no client is going to care about that stuff.

However, I think it would be wrong to say that people are reacting to this release by discussing that stuff because they care about reverb/legato transitions as a good or a goal in and of themselves. Rather, people are starting with the impression that what they've heard of the library so far _doesn't sound realistic and/or appealing _to them and _then _they are starting to discuss this stuff as a means to try to diagnose _why_. 

In other words, I don't think people went into these demos and videos saying, "let me listen carefully to the way the reverb sounds." Rather, they went in saying, "let me see if this sounds good," and then when they found that (to them) it did not, they started saying, "I wonder if it is the reverb causing it to sound less realistic than I expected?"


----------



## Stanoli

BasariStudios said:


> People need to ask their wives?


In heaven there are 2 entrances for men: 
One says <for the henpecked man> the other <for the free man>.
St. Peter is desperate: There is always a long row in front of the henpecked man entrance, noone ever stands in front of the free man entrance. 

Then finally one day the free man entrance bell rings. 
St. Peter runs to the door only to see there is a little bald guy with glasses standing there. 
St. Peter asks: Why do you ring here?
The little man says: I am a professor of psychology and my wife told me to ring here....


----------



## Batrawi

BasariStudios said:


> People need to ask their wives?


in my case it's even worse. I also have to ask her to buy me the library!


----------



## dzilizzi

Lazer42 said:


> I think there's an important distinction to be made here. You very correctly hit on the fact that the bottom line is whether one can get a realistic and appealing sound from the library and obsessing over the details of reverb or how _exactly_ the legato transitions sound misses the point; no client is going to care about that stuff.
> 
> However, I think it would be wrong to say that people are reacting to this release by discussing that stuff because they care about reverb/legato transitions as a good or a goal in and of themselves. Rather, people are starting with the impression that what they've heard of the library so far _doesn't sound realistic and/or appealing _to them and _then _they are starting to discuss this stuff as a means to try to diagnose _why_.
> 
> In other words, I don't think people went into these demos and videos saying, "let me listen carefully to the way the reverb sounds." Rather, they went in saying, "let me see if this sounds good," and then when they found that (to them) it did not, they started saying, "I wonder if it is the reverb causing it to sound less realistic than I expected?"


This! It's a "Is what I don't like about this library sound fixable by me or is it something baked in that can't be fixed and so makes me want to stick with what I already have " sort of thing.


----------



## Casiquire

Well sure, but i still don't hear anything wrong about the legatos


----------



## FireGS

JohannesR said:


> Bought, downloaded and gave it a very brief 5 minutes (under a deadline so no time for noodling).
> 
> Be aware that this library is recorded dry which surprised me (admittedly, I didn’t watch all the videos).The hall sound is artificial reverb.
> 
> I could be wrong of course, but I get an instant Eastern Europe vibe from the library without any effects; Budapest, Prague etc. Not a bad thing by any stretch, but it’s good to know what you’re buying into.


ok WOW, You're not kidding. Holy heck, this IS dry!!! The close mic is like, MONO dry!

And holy CRAP can it get LOUD!!

OK, sonic testing ONLY:

I turned off the reverb, and the EQ settings. Playing Viola, the surround is definitely too wide, and that's causing the phase issue. Some delicate stereo narrowing on the lower frequencies ~600hz and lower, and the phase issue on the surround mic literally disappears. I'm actually not as big a fan of the close mics as I expected, because they're super directional and sound REALLY dry. I revise my initial thought, -6db on the close, stage at 0, surrounds at -12db.






It's gonna be a while till I show anything I'm happy with - not a knock on the library, but I just want to get my head around this before I throw something up.

Initial impressions are EXTREMELY good - at least on Violas.

Ninja edit 3: I think the width can be changed in the ensemble page, and turning it down from 100% to about 75% also removed the phase issues.





Onto celli! Small petition, @dxmachina can ya'll rename "Cellos" to "Celli" in the next update? My inner italian is screaming. <3


----------



## ansthenia

Sounds awful. Just bought it downloading now.






Lol, I kid. Sounds great imo. Not super amazing omg best ever, but very good.


----------



## Zedcars

FireGS said:


> ok WOW, You're not kidding. Holy heck, this IS dry!!! The close mic is like, MONO dry!
> 
> And holy CRAP can it get LOUD!!
> 
> OK, sonic testing ONLY:
> 
> I turned off the reverb, and the EQ settings. Playing Viola, the surround is definitely too wide, and that's causing the phase issue. Some delicate stereo narrowing on the lower frequencies ~600hz and lower, and the phase issue on the surround mic literally disappears. I'm actually not as big a fan of the close mics as I expected, because they're super directional and sound REALLY dry. I revise my initial thought, -6db on the close, stage at 0, surrounds at -12db.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's gonna be a while till I show anything I'm happy with - not a knock on the library, but I just want to get my head around this before I throw something up.
> 
> Initial impressions are EXTREMELY good - at least on Violas.
> 
> Ninja edit 3: I think the width can be changed in the ensemble page, and turning it down from 100% to about 75% also removed the phase issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Onto celli! Small petition, @dxmachina can ya'll rename "Cellos" to "Celli" in the next update? My inner italian is screaming. <3


Bookmarked your really helpful post for if/when I buy it. I'm not so good at this sort of thing so I'm extremely grateful for your input.


----------



## dxmachina

> @dxmachina can ya'll rename "Cellos" to "Celli" in the next update? My inner italian is screaming.


😶


----------



## Ryan Fultz

dxmachina said:


> Yes, and we do read the feedback. But probably will be a few days before we can stomach opening the screen capture again.
> 
> 
> 
> This one is easy... absolutely not. This is a brand new library (aside from that pesky LASS solo viola).


I know you were saying the sale would last about a month, do you have a firm or rough end-date yet? Didn't see that in the store.


----------



## jneebz

FireGS said:


> before I throw something up


You're gonna puke? Not a good sign.


----------



## ism

Lazer42 said:


> I think there's an important distinction to be made here. You very correctly hit on the fact that the bottom line is whether one can get a realistic and appealing sound from the library and obsessing over the details of reverb or how _exactly_ the legato transitions sound misses the point; no client is going to care about that stuff.
> 
> However, I think it would be wrong to say that people are reacting to this release by discussing that stuff because they care about reverb/legato transitions as a good or a goal in and of themselves. Rather, people are starting with the impression that what they've heard of the library so far _doesn't sound realistic and/or appealing _to them and _then _they are starting to discuss this stuff as a means to try to diagnose _why_.
> 
> In other words, I don't think people went into these demos and videos saying, "let me listen carefully to the way the reverb sounds." Rather, they went in saying, "let me see if this sounds good," and then when they found that (to them) it did not, they started saying, "I wonder if it is the reverb causing it to sound less realistic than I expected?


Also, the sound is integral to the emotional effect of the music. It's profoundly irrelevant if listeners are never going to care about the details of reverb and mic. This doesn't change the fact they will feel very different emotions depending on whether you use a close mic vs a tree. Or a cathedral reverb vs a a small chamber.

You'll never get the embodied expansiveness of an AIR lyndursy library with this one, no matter how much engineering jiggery pokery you apply in production. And you'd never get the delicate crunchiness of this one if it were recored in AIR.

My experience with Genesis is that this is not trying to be an uber-plonkable instant-gratification css or soaring strings-like library. It's for people who value nuance and are willing to invest the time to craft it in their sound, as well as in their music.

And I'm really loving the ability to craft nuance in the legatos in this lib.


----------



## dxmachina

> I know you were saying the sale would last about a month, do you have a firm or rough end-date yet?


It's not firm, but definitely until March 16


----------



## FireGS

jneebz said:


> You're gonna puke? Not a good sign.


I DIDNT SAY THAT


----------



## Dopplereffect

Lazer42 said:


> I think there's an important distinction to be made here. You very correctly hit on the fact that the bottom line is whether one can get a realistic and appealing sound from the library and obsessing over the details of reverb or how _exactly_ the legato transitions sound misses the point; no client is going to care about that stuff.
> 
> However, I think it would be wrong to say that people are reacting to this release by discussing that stuff because they care about reverb/legato transitions as a good or a goal in and of themselves. Rather, people are starting with the impression that what they've heard of the library so far _doesn't sound realistic and/or appealing _to them and _then _they are starting to discuss this stuff as a means to try to diagnose _why_.
> 
> In other words, I don't think people went into these demos and videos saying, "let me listen carefully to the way the reverb sounds." Rather, they went in saying, "let me see if this sounds good," and then when they found that (to them) it did not, they started saying, "I wonder if it is the reverb causing it to sound less realistic than I expected?"


Good point and fair enough.

However, I've read somewhere (so maybe a grain of salt is in order) that some listening-testings with VI-users yielded results where they judged some examples to sound synthy, fake, bad-room-sound etc... not realising that they were listening to actual orchestras...

Not sure if this is actually true, but I do think that when you are scrutinising something for flaws, you'll always find them...


----------



## bvaughn0402

Dopplereffect said:


> Good point and fair enough.
> 
> However, I've read somewhere (so maybe a grain of salt is in order) that some listening-testings with VI-users yielded results where they judged some examples to sound synthy, fake, bad-room-sound etc... not realising that they were listening to actual orchestras...
> 
> Not sure if this is actually true, but I do think that when you are scrutinising something for flaws, you'll always find them...


I remember that! Anyone remember the thread? Someone posted an actual orchestra like a demo, and people shredded it for sounding fake and synthy.


----------



## muziksculp

Maybe I missed this detail. So.. What's the story with Vibrato, i.e. Vibrato amount, and speed in this library ? 

How much control do we have over Vibrato ? how is it implemented in MSS ? 

Thanks.


----------



## JEPA

it is there a video for legato?


----------



## AndyP

Mmm, I'm in a similar situation to BSS when it was released. MSS doesn't sound bad, but somehow I'm not at the point that I absolutely have to have it.
I'm waiting for Voyage and if there is a good sale I might jump on the MSS train.

Too many string libraries in the last few months and I have enough choice on my hard drives to give me plenty of time.

And I'm with Alex, Legato is never overrated!


----------



## Casiquire

Dopplereffect said:


> Good point and fair enough.
> 
> However, I've read somewhere (so maybe a grain of salt is in order) that some listening-testings with VI-users yielded results where they judged some examples to sound synthy, fake, bad-room-sound etc... not realising that they were listening to actual orchestras...
> 
> Not sure if this is actually true, but I do think that when you are scrutinising something for flaws, you'll always find them...


Exactly. I also recall a thread where we were told to guess which library was which, and only one demo was an actual mock-up. The rest were live. Truth is actual strings sound a little synthy sometimes.


----------



## Lazeez

JEPA said:


> it is there a video for legato?


Yup, along with videos on other subjects on their website: https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-strings/


----------



## jneebz

bvaughn0402 said:


> Someone posted an actual orchestra like a demo, and people shredded it for sounding fake and synthy


This doesn't prove anyone right or wrong, good or bad, skilled or not skilled...it just points to the subjectivity of how we listen and process what we hear based on our own auditory experiences (and the physiological state of our hearing mechanism!). 

It's very possible a live recorded orchestra could sound "synthy."

It's also very possible that really cheap samples in the hands of a skilled mock-up composer can sound like a real orchestra.

In the end, I can't help but be grateful for the wonder of modern technology that affords us endless creative potential. I probably won't add MSS to my arsenal, but man, what a wonder of technology it is!


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Maybe I missed this detail. So.. What's the story with Vibrato, i.e. Vibrato amount, and speed in this library ?
> 
> How much control do we have over Vibrato ? how is it implemented in MSS ?
> 
> Thanks.


There's a slider. There isnt really MV, i'd say regular vibrato with a slider/knob down to NV. The NV is really NV.


----------



## muziksculp

I watched the MSS Legato video 3 times in a row, I can easily say all I heard was awesome sounding legato quality. Super smooth, and very realistic sounding.


----------



## turnerofwheels

bvaughn0402 said:


> I remember that! Anyone remember the thread? Someone posted an actual orchestra like a demo, and people shredded it for sounding fake and synthy.



This is why I like randomized blind tests.. can't say how often I've seen this kind of back and forth overlap or fallen for it myself.


----------



## Toecutter

FireGS said:


> ok WOW, You're not kidding. Holy heck, this IS dry!!! The close mic is like, MONO dry!
> 
> And holy CRAP can it get LOUD!!
> 
> OK, sonic testing ONLY:
> 
> I turned off the reverb, and the EQ settings. Playing Viola, the surround is definitely too wide, and that's causing the phase issue. Some delicate stereo narrowing on the lower frequencies ~600hz and lower, and the phase issue on the surround mic literally disappears. I'm actually not as big a fan of the close mics as I expected, because they're super directional and sound REALLY dry. I revise my initial thought, -6db on the close, stage at 0, surrounds at -12db.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's gonna be a while till I show anything I'm happy with - not a knock on the library, but I just want to get my head around this before I throw something up.
> 
> Initial impressions are EXTREMELY good - at least on Violas.
> 
> Ninja edit 3: I think the width can be changed in the ensemble page, and turning it down from 100% to about 75% also removed the phase issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Onto celli! Small petition, @dxmachina can ya'll rename "Cellos" to "Celli" in the next update? My inner italian is screaming. <3


Ugh having issues listening to the screenshots XD

Please FGS, post a few audio clips without the reverb... 5 second melodies with and without reverb will do, even twinkle twinkle star.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

So the library sounds drier than the dry examples in the video? Now I'm confused. Plus I'm now having an existential crisis, to legato or to not legato?


----------



## JEPA

Lazeez said:


> Yup, along with videos on other subjects on their website: https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-strings/


which video? no labels..

Edit: I'm so lazy to find the spot where it appears...


----------



## Zedcars

JEPA said:


> which video? no labels..
> 
> Edit: I'm so lazy to find the spot where it appears...


----------



## muziksculp

Can the Ostinato engine be used with the Short Articulations ? 

The Ostinato engine Video only shows it using the Arcos.


----------



## Marlon Brown

FireGS said:


> A gentleman never kisses and tells..........or do they?


don't be selfish, we all want this library! Some of us need to still convince the lady!


----------



## FireGS

I dont like that I havent spent a lot of time on this, but here's the Violas.

[DELETED] See https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-4765431

No reverb, no EQ. -9db close, 0db stage, -12db surround. 75% width.


----------



## novaburst

Dopplereffect said:


> Not sure if this is actually true, but I do think that when you are scrutinising something for flaws, you'll always find them...


This the word of the day. no its the word of the year,


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> I dont like that I havent spent a lot of time on this, but here's the Violas.
> 
> View attachment 44984
> 
> 
> No reverb, no EQ. -9db close, 0db stage, -12db surround. 75% width.


really sounds very close to NI Symphony Strings. Is that with legato auto-speed on?


----------



## TintoL

FireGS said:


> I dont like that I havent spent a lot of time on this, but here's the Violas.
> 
> View attachment 44984
> 
> 
> No reverb, no EQ. -9db close, 0db stage, -12db surround. 75% width.


That is such a massive difference. That reverb was killing it.


----------



## FireGS

Batrawi said:


> really sounds very close to NI Symphony Strings. Is that with legato auto-speed on?


No, programmed.


----------



## FireGS

FireGS said:


> I dont like that I havent spent a lot of time on this, but here's the Violas.
> 
> View attachment 44984
> 
> 
> No reverb, no EQ. -9db close, 0db stage, -12db surround. 75% width.


Here's the same thing in context, with a slurry of other libraries. The ONLY MSS is the Viola, and this has added reverb. This is not mixed really, so, it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[removed] see https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-4765431


----------



## NoamL

Developers: please model your videos on what Cinematic Studio does!  Show the library in isolation, with _no added reverb_, performing quick and varied passages of the _most challenging_ thing the developer thinks the library can _achieve with musicality & realism_. If you have highly produced demos, each one should have a track with the library soloed ("naked" demo). Quickly show the different instrument sections solo'd. Talk about features only when you have to, and use text on screen most of the time. Keep in mind what your competitors' products are capable of and emphasize what your library excels at that _most people_ probably don't have a good solution for yet.

i mean there are some basic questions not answered by quickly watching the demos and videos like - how is the fast accented legato? Can I play arpeggios? How about rebowed passages? What sets this apart from CSS, HWS, SSS, CS2 or for that matter LASS?


----------



## Robert_G

FireGS said:


> I dont like that I havent spent a lot of time on this, but here's the Violas.
> 
> View attachment 44984
> 
> 
> No reverb, no EQ. -9db close, 0db stage, -12db surround. 75% width.



Sounds exactly as I expected it to. I'm not sure why there are so many complaints. I do agree that would have been nice to hear this in the walkthrough though.


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> No, programmed.


 umm.. not sure we got each other, but wat were your settings here?


----------



## Denkii

BasariStudios said:


> People need to ask their wives?


People still get married?


----------



## Evans

For libraries with such a deep level of control, I'd love a video like this:

Load an example instrument.
Turn everything off.
Lay down a basic line, with no CC changes.
Start assigning some controls to the different knobs and sliders, illustrating the difference they make as you iterate on the original line.
Illustrate the various mics.
_Then _add back in the Sends.
I swear I've seen this before, somewhere...


----------



## Casiquire

FireGS said:


> I dont like that I havent spent a lot of time on this, but here's the Violas.
> 
> View attachment 44984
> 
> 
> No reverb, no EQ. -9db close, 0db stage, -12db surround. 75% width.


I'm not at my computer with the Good Sound right now, but am i hearing same note rebows? They sound convincing?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

FireGS said:


> I dont like that I havent spent a lot of time on this, but here's the Violas.
> 
> View attachment 44984
> 
> 
> No reverb, no EQ. -9db close, 0db stage, -12db surround. 75% width.


I personally don't understand why they bother to record what seems to be strait legatos like that with no expression. These just don't seem to be that useful and a sustain might as well give the same result. Was that 1 legato variation only? Luckily, they have more legato variations. But the sounds is good here.

edited: The fact that what we hear seems to be mostly lower velocities probably doesn't help here.
edited: Seems i got the wrong impression from this example.


----------



## FireGS

Batrawi said:


> umm.. not sure we got each other, but wat were your settings here?


Speed turned off auto. Trans volume -6db. Trans speed also lowest. I did transition and note start via velocity.


----------



## Marlon Brown

So now that some of you have the library, what are your first thoughts? How does it compare to LASS at first glance?


----------



## FireGS

Casiquire said:


> I'm not at my computer with the Good Sound right now, but am i hearing same note rebows? They sound convincing?


You are, and they are. Tip, I think, the rebow button has to be on before the first note of the two notes to rebow. I assigned it to CC64.


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I personally don't understand why they bother to record what seems to be strait legatos like that with no expression. These just don't seem to be that useful and a sustain might as well give the same result. Was that 1 legato variation only? luckly, they have more legato variations. But the sounds is good here.


Sure there's accented and slow also, then intuition for really fast stuff. And intuition sounds really good to my ears.

This type of legato is good for some things too. Not everything needs to be dripping with extra feeling, because when everything is too passionate then nothing is passionate. We need balance. Straight, plain, even legato is good for baroque music or modern orchestral music too


----------



## FireGS

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I personally don't understand why they bother to record what seems to be strait legatos like that with no expression. These just don't seem to be that useful and a sustain might as well give the same result. Was that 1 legato variation only? luckly, they have more legato variations. But the sounds is good here.


I stayed with Legato transition (no port or gliss), and used both crescendo, normal, and accented note starts.

There seems to be some speed variance with the legato transitions. At the lowest slider setting, its as slow as it'll go, and the closer to port, without triggering port, the faster it gets (I think, im seriously sleep deprived).


----------



## FireGS

Marlon Brown said:


> So now that some of you have the library, what are your first thoughts? How does it compare to LASS at first glance?


Totally different tone to LASS, IMO. Closer to CSS in terms of tone than many here think. There's so much to dive into with this, we're all going to need a while. This is a good thing.


----------



## Batrawi

they do sound gorgeous with all onboard fx disabled, but how the notes connect... is not what I hoped for, especially knowing that trans. spd were set at lowest which was my last hope...


----------



## FireGS

Batrawi said:


> they do sound gorgeous with all onboard fx disabled, but how the notes connect... is not what I hoped for, especially knowing that trans. spd were set at lowest which was my last hope...


Seriously, I think we need some time with the library. I really don't know what I'm doing yet, and I don't think you should use my demo as any sort of justification. Wait for others. I think this library deserves it.


----------



## soulofsound

Evans said:


> For libraries with such a deep level of control, I'd love a video like this:
> 
> Load an example instrument.
> Turn everything off.
> Lay down a basic line, with no CC changes.
> Start assigning some controls to the different knobs and sliders, illustrating the difference they make as you iterate on the original line.
> Illustrate the various mics.
> _Then _add back in the Sends.
> I swear I've seen this before, somewhere...


Sounds like a good idea, but laying down a line without CC will not give you a truthful picture of the library. I think this is what some of the people here instinctively complain about in the first legato video, the lack of dynamics (the opening melody has most of the parts playing at constant CC1). This is also ironic because it's the best proof there are no bumpy legatos here.


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> Seriously, I think we need some time with the library. I really don't know what I'm doing yet, and I don't think you should use my demo as any sort of justification. Wait for others. I think this library deserves it.


definitely it does deserve it. I do appreciate the amount of effort that went into it and I'm sure that it's very capable of doing all other sorts of crazy things, but.... for me & for the kind of music I do, lyricism is the #1 factor that outweighs any other🙁


----------



## lettucehat

feck said:


> Then once it's released, dozens more posts about legato and room sounds based on someone else's demos and performances. I can tell you that for the hundreds of commercial cues I've sold, not ONE client has ever come to me and said "you know, we'd use your cue if it just weren't for the less-than-perfect room sound....and those legato transitions, they've GOTTA go".
> 
> If you can't get a realistic, beautiful sounding performance out of these samples, then the samples aren't your problem.


... and then inevitably someone posts this tired old handwave line. Congrats, you just came up with a justification to ignore every library flaw ever.

Of course this exact, weird situation never occurs. But what does ultra-specific and articulate feedback from non-musician clients have to do with what a composer is listening to right now?


----------



## sourcefor

FireGS said:


> Totally different tone to LASS, IMO. Closer to CSS in terms of tone than many here think. There's so much to dive into with this, we're all going to need a while. This is a good thing.


Yes I love the tone of MSS and it will be replacing LASS in my template!


----------



## borisb2

download finished and installed - played with it for a while (didnt have too much time today unfortunately)

Started with ensembles to get a feel for the sound (first thing was turning off IR). So far I absolutely love that warm sound, not too thick, not too thin. Perfect! Volume-wise the violins are default a bit quiet compared to the lower register. Can be changed I suppose/hope. Then I tried violins (Full) patch to test legato. Yes I think that needs some tweaking from my side (volume, speed, automating rebow), but its so cool that all the controls are there. With rebow the legato transition is quite obvious, with rebow off its quite subtle .. need to play with the settings.

Overall first impressions: sound is gorgeous out of the box, tons of control .. need to tweak the legato a bit - but it wont be CSS I suppose

can post some examples later today


----------



## Supremo

FireGS said:


> Here's the same thing in context, with a slurry of other libraries. The ONLY MSS is the Viola, and this has added reverb. This is not mixed really, so, it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> View attachment 44985



I may be terribly wrong but my first impression from the viola demo is that the legato sounds more like a static fade-out of each previously played note's release sample. A bit hard to explain but it doesn't quite sound like a sample of a true legato transition. 

Again, this might be just my false initial impression...


----------



## Casiquire

Psst. Reminder to everyone, i don't *want* this to be CSS, because CSS is readily available. I'm glad it's something new. I hear very smooth legatos doing a different playing and recording style which is exactly what it should be


----------



## FireGS

Supremo said:


> I may be terribly wrong but my first impression from the viola demo is that the legato sounds more like a static fade-out of each previously played note's release sample. A bit hard to explain but it doesn't quite sound like a sample of a true legato transition.
> 
> Again, this might be just my false initial impression...


Could be. Again, I just tried to turn it into what I know, and this may not be the intended use. Please, as I said, wait for people who have more time than 30 minutes to try to figure out what's all going on. Also, I turned the transition volume way down.


----------



## feck

lettucehat said:


> ... and then inevitably someone posts this tired old handwave line. Congrats, you just came up with a justification to ignore every library flaw ever.
> 
> Of course this exact, weird situation never occurs. But what does ultra-specific and articulate feedback from non-musician clients have to do with what a composer is listening to right now?


No, every sideline spectator who hasn’t even bought or used it is making uneducated snap judgments based on extremely limited data. In what way is that supposed to be a good thing?


----------



## FireGS

OK, I hope no one's upset (   ), but I'm actually removing my demos, as I said previously, I dont like posting very fresh demos. That said, I think enough of you here have heard that the sound/tone of the room is 100% tamable, and that this library can be VERY dry. I'm sure other demos will come along and be way more musical than mine, and they can stand the test of time, I don't want my shitty attempt being the first user demo people see. POOF!


----------



## muziksculp

borisb2 said:


> but it wont be CSS I suppose


Can we leave CSS out of this please.


----------



## FireGS

Alex Niedt said:


> Just played this with a handful of my current libraries and found their transitions markedly more natural and musical without even programming anything. You may have saved me a bunch of money, haha


To be fair, I more or less removed the transitions by turning the transition volume down to 0.


----------



## lettucehat

feck said:


> No, every sideline spectator who hasn’t even bought or used it is making uneducated snap judgments based on extremely limited data. In what way is that supposed to be a good thing?


Where did I disagree?


----------



## zolhof

muziksculp said:


> Maybe I missed this detail. So.. What's the story with Vibrato, i.e. Vibrato amount, and speed in this library ?
> 
> How much control do we have over Vibrato ? how is it implemented in MSS ?
> 
> Thanks.


If it's anything like MSB, there's a ton of control. In MSB, I have control over each individual instrument and also sectional vibrato, where just the first chair plays vibrato (like the real thing). I often enable the vibrato for the 3rd player as well, to add a bit of movement. It's very subtle in isolation but makes a big difference to the overall sound of the ensemble. Pitch Arc also influences how the vibrato is perceived, since it controls how much air a brass player pushes through the instrument, so the more Pitch Arc you add, you will get a very subtle pitch variation. You can go from none to big and broad vibrato. The detune script is one my favorite things and, used in small increments, can inject more character to a static performance. I automate the heck out of it!

I would love to read the MSS manual (@dxmachina is it possible?), but from what I could gather watching the videos, the engines are very similar and MSS should offer a lot of humanization options, including vibrato.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> To be fair, I more or less removed the transitions by turning the transition volume down to 0.


Turning the transitions volume down to zero, means you have no audible legato transitions, it won't sound good, but rather strange. I think that's what I'm hearing.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Turning the transitions volume down to zero, means you have no audible legato transitions, it won't sound good, but rather strange. I think that's what I'm hearing.


Sorry, I meant CC value 0 on the knob, which corresponds to -6db.


----------



## Supremo

FireGS said:


> To be fair, I more or less removed the transitions by turning the transition volume down to 0.


Ah, that explains exactly what I heard. Good to know they didn’t omit real transitions. But why would you do that to us, poor people striving to hear a couple of dry legato samples? )


----------



## borisb2

muziksculp said:


> Can we leave CSS out of this please.


sorry .. youre right


----------



## coprhead6

To my violist ears, the boosted legato transition volume in the video sounded the best to me - and the reduced volume sounded the least realistic.
Also the bow change legato sounds awesome! I haven’t heard anything like this before.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> Sorry, I meant CC value 0 on the knob, which corresponds to -6db.


Oh.. OK, I see. 

I think a library as deep as MSS needs a few days of experimentation, learning, and getting a good handle on crafting it to your taste. I would recommend you spend some quality time with MSS, and then post more feedback, demos, ..etc. It's very easy to confuse, or give the wrong impressions of such as deep library without having enough experience using it.


----------



## FireGS

coprhead6 said:


> To my violist ears, the boosted legato transition volume in the video sounded the best to me - and the reduced volume sounded the least realistic


I'll have to try this.



Supremo said:


> Ah, that explains exactly what I heard. Good to know they didn’t omit real transitions. But why would you do that to us, poor people striving to hear a couple of dry legato samples? )


Because I'm evil. Or I suck? Or I'm sleep deprived and don't know what I'm doing yet with the library. Choose.... two.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> Oh.. OK, I see.
> 
> I think a library as deep as MSS needs a few days of experimentation, learning, and getting a good handle on crafting it to your taste. I would recommend you spend some quality time with MSS, and then post more feedback, demos, ..etc. It's very easy to confuse, or give the wrong impressions of such as deep library without having enough experience using it.


And that's why I deleted the demos <3


----------



## muziksculp

coprhead6 said:


> To my violist ears, the boosted legato transition volume in the video sounded the best to me - and the reduced volume sounded the least realistic.
> Also the bow change legato sounds awesome! I haven’t heard anything like this before.


I agree. I had the same impression.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> Sure there's accented and slow also, then intuition for really fast stuff. And intuition sounds really good to my ears.
> 
> This type of legato is good for some things too. Not everything needs to be dripping with extra feeling, because when everything is too passionate then nothing is passionate. We need balance. Straight, plain, even legato is good for baroque music or modern orchestral music too


Sure i understand that, but how useful is it really? It's basically a nv sustain with a very small barely audible tradition. At least what we heard in this example. I'm not bashing the library and this is mean to be constructive criticism. My grip is with this specific articulation. I think they did the same with ni sss and i had the same reaction then. i just think they be better of spending time and hd space on something with more expression. But I'll wait to hear more to pass a final judgment on that. edited: OK transition was set to zero so i guess that was a bad example.


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Sure i understand that, but how useful is it really? It's basically a nv sustain with a very small barely audible tradition. At least what we heard in this example. I'm not bashing the library and this is mean to be constructive cristism. My grip is with this specific articulation. I think they did the same with ni sss and i had the same reaction then. i just think they be better of spending time and hd space on something with more expression. But I'll wait to hear more to pass a final judgment on that.


Well, it's realistic lol. And i gave you two examples of types of music that benefit from it 😁


----------



## muziksculp

Looking forward to watch some videos showing the MSS Legato Expansion, also the Sordino, Sul-Tasto, and Sul-Pont articulations in the main MSS library.


----------



## FireGS

Just opining here, and this isnt anything for or against MSS, my demo, or you all, but how does a string player play a note transition louder than the notes they connect? Why would raising the transition volume SIX DB (!!!) sound realistic? Legato transitions (in sample world) are not crescendos into the next note. So... what am I missing here? How, in reality, is there any time to actually play something louder in between the notes you're already playing?

I'm not talking about port, or gliss, which may be louder, I guess, but strictly a notated legato transition between notes. And I'm also not talking about notated expression, like a < into a note.


----------



## jamwerks

FireGS said:


> Just opining here, and this isnt anything for or against MSS, my demo, or you all, but how does a string player play a note transition louder than the notes they connect? Why would raising the transition volume SIX DB (!!!) sound realistic? Legato transitions (in sample world) are not crescendos into the next note. So... what am I missing here? How, in reality, is there any time to actually play something louder in between the notes you're already playing?
> 
> I'm not talking about port, or gliss, which may be louder, I guess, but strictly a notated legato transition between notes.


When playing really fast legato, hearing more transition and less static note seems to give a sound closer to the real world.


----------



## novaburst

Casiquire said:


> Psst. Reminder to everyone, i don't *want* this to be CSS, because CSS is readily available. I'm glad it's something new. I hear very smooth legatos doing a different playing and recording style which is exactly what it should be


This is so so needed to be said to remind us ...... you cant expect every thing to play and sound like CSS what is the point of that it really isn't making sense.

And because it want play like CSS its bad .... where did that come from.

New Library's will respond different they will sound different but anything can be broken in or you can get a liking to that which is new as long as you can accept change and undo what you are used to and embrace the new 

because something works differently does not mean it is worse or the underdog, it just simply means you need a different approach and a better understanding of what you are using so you are able to get the best out of it,


----------



## FireGS

jamwerks said:


> When playing really fast legato, hearing more transition and less static note seems to give a sound closer to the real world.


OK. I dunno if you heard my demo, but it was a really slow melody line. Basically, every note was supposed to be a bow change, and adding 6db of already loud transitions seems ludicrous to me. I can see your point in that case, and I'd argue that more times than not, dynamics are also changing with said fast legato.


----------



## chapbot

FireGS said:


> OK, I hope no one's upset (   ), but I'm actually removing my demos, as I said previously, I dont like posting very fresh demos. That said, I think enough of you here have heard that the sound/tone of the room is 100% tamable, and that this library can be VERY dry. I'm sure other demos will come along and be way more musical than mine, and they can stand the test of time, I don't want my shitty attempt being the first user demo people see. POOF!


I didn't get to hear your demo before you removed it. In the shorts video with the close mic you can hear a little bit of the room. But you are saying the close mics are totally dry? can you hear a little bit of the room or are they bone dry?


----------



## Evans

novaburst said:


> you cant expect every thing to play and sound like CSS what is the point of that it really isn't making sense.


This is precisely why I think I'll have some use out of MSB. It's quite specifically *not *CSB or CineBrass.


----------



## FireGS

novaburst said:


> because something works differently does not mean it is worse or the underdog, it just simply means you need a different approach and a better understanding of what you are using so you are able to get the best out of it,


Yeah! And good luck to the poor sap who posts the first user dem--

.......oh.


----------



## FireGS

chapbot said:


> I didn't get to hear your demo before you removed it. In the shorts video with the close mic you can hear a little bit of the room. But you are saying the close mics are totally dry? can you hear a little bit of the room or are they bone dry?


Close mics you can definitely hear the room slap back a bit. It's less that it seemed on the demos. The close mics are VERY close sounding, and that's why I said that I actually don't prefer them as "main" mics - they're too close, and by themselves aren't a good representation of a string section. Mixing them into the stage mics seems best to me (between -6 and -9db). (kInDa LiKe cSs cLoSe MiCs!! )


----------



## Evans

muziksculp said:


> I think a library as deep as MSS needs a few days of experimentation, learning, and getting a good handle on crafting it to your taste. I would recommend you spend some quality time with MSS, and then post more feedback, demos, ..etc. It's very easy to confuse, or give the wrong impressions of such as deep library without having enough experience using it.


I agree, to an extent. It might not yet be time to post some melodic demonstrations, but more technical, surgical examples could be valuable. "Here are some repeated shorts with a gradually increasing dynamic with each mic option" is still useful.


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> how does a string player play a note transition louder than the notes they connect? Why would raising the transition volume SIX DB (!!!) sound realistic?


I think (not sure) in sample world, legato transitions are usually recorded for only 1 dynamic layer, so they will not always sound naturally balanced against the sustained dynamics (especially louder ones) between which they are played.... so boosting the transition volume often may give a more satisfying result.... eventhough all this virtual manipulations are not accurately simulating what happens in the real world


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

borisb2 said:


> sorry .. youre right


Actually, it's relevant for me cause it's MSS or CSS and i welcome the comparison from those that own both.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

FireGS said:


> Just opining here, and this isnt anything for or against MSS, my demo, or you all, but how does a string player play a note transition louder than the notes they connect? Why would raising the transition volume SIX DB (!!!) sound realistic? Legato transitions (in sample world) are not crescendos into the next note. So... what am I missing here? How, in reality, is there any time to actually play something louder in between the notes you're already playing?
> 
> I'm not talking about port, or gliss, which may be louder, I guess, but strictly a notated legato transition between notes. And I'm also not talking about notated expression, like a < into a note.


It's context dependent. Just play with it and evetually I'm sure you'll find a use for what is an other cool feature in mss.


----------



## muziksculp

Given I already have a big selection of Strings Libraries, I'm having a hard time trying to decide if I still need more Strings Libraries.  

What would MSS & the Legato Exp. provide that I don't have ? do I really need it ? or is it a pure luxury item ? I don't know how many of you are trying to decide if you need MSS, and you already have other String libraries, but it's getting tougher to decide. We also have a few upcoming String libraries that will be out this year, so not an easy decision. 

I'm going to wait, carefully evaluate, and re-evaluate MSS as more videos, demos, walkthroughs surface on the web. No rush this time around, although I would still want to get it at the loyalty discount offer before March 16th if I decide to go for it. 

My last Strings library purchase was OT-BSS, I love the way it sounds. Surely not as deep as MSS with Exp.Legato. But, it was an instant buy for me.


----------



## coprhead6

FireGS said:


> OK. I dunno if you heard my demo, but it was a really slow melody line. Basically, every note was supposed to be a bow change, and adding 6db of already loud transitions seems ludicrous to me. I can see your point in that case, and I'd argue that more times than not, dynamics are also changing with said fast legato.


There are so many variables involved, but I can jump on your point here.
If every note was supposed to be a bow change, it would make sense to have louder transitions. This is because the bow physically stops the vibration of the string and reverses it - and there would be associated bow noise. If the player was supposed to use a "fingered" transition (the bow going in one direction while changing notes), the transitions would be softer. In this case, there would be some noise from the finger, but that's all.

It seems to me that the +6db gives a very realistic bow change, while 0db gives a realistic fingered change. -6db sounds more like a case-specific effect for very soft passages or something.

If you boost the the transition in faster passages, it would sound like separate bow strokes for each note, or more "detache".

I guess with the legato volume we're talking about emulating these real techniques, so it won't be perfect.


----------



## Robert_G

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Actually, it's relevant for me cause it's MSS or CSS and i welcome the comparison from those that own both.


Honestly, I'm not sure you can choose between these 2 libraries. If you only care about Legato, other basic articulations, and the actual sound....then maybe you could do a fair comparison, but CSS doesn't even have a fraction of the content that MSS has.

Edit: To be fair...I should note that I own CSS and love it.


----------



## borisb2

muziksculp said:


> What would MSS & the Legato Exp. provide that I don't have ? do I really need it ? or is it a pure luxury item ? I don't know how many of you are trying to decide if you need MSS, and you already have other String libraries, but it's getting tougher to decide. We also have a few upcoming String libraries that will be out this year, so not an easy decision.
> ...
> 
> My last Strings library purchase was OT-BSS, I love the way it sounds. Surely not as deep as MSS with Exp.Legato. But, it was an instant buy for me.


But thats the thing for me. I did not buy into BSS, probably wont upgrade to HOOPUS (HWS is good enough) and successfully resisted on buying SCS in the last sale.

So there was instant green light for MSS. Very happy with it so far


----------



## bvaughn0402

jneebz said:


> This doesn't prove anyone right or wrong, good or bad, skilled or not skilled...it just points to the subjectivity of how we listen and process what we hear based on our own auditory experiences (and the physiological state of our hearing mechanism!).
> 
> It's very possible a live recorded orchestra could sound "synthy."
> 
> It's also very possible that really cheap samples in the hands of a skilled mock-up composer can sound like a real orchestra.
> 
> In the end, I can't help but be grateful for the wonder of modern technology that affords us endless creative potential. I probably won't add MSS to my arsenal, but man, what a wonder of technology it is!


Exactly my point. It is all subjective. Just because it sounds “synthy” doesn’t mean it isn’t good or realistic. It is all in the realm of the person using it. If we excuse something away as synthy, much more a factor of our own laziness or lack of imagination.


----------



## FireGS

coprhead6 said:


> This is because the bow physically stops the vibration of the string and reverses it





coprhead6 said:


> it would make sense to have louder transitions


This doesn't make a ton of sense to me, from a physics point of view. How can the bow both stop the vibrations of the string, and at the same time make noise, and loud noise at that? Seems to me like its the second note's attack thats making the noise and not the transition between them. The transition is stopping the first note and starting the second.


----------



## Batrawi

coprhead6 said:


> In this case, there would be some noise from the finger, but that's all.


+a dampening in the note/tune I guess, no?... otherwise they wouldn't have needed to record each transition if it's just an atonal finger noise


----------



## Dopplereffect

FireGS said:


> This doesn't make a ton of sense to me, from a physics point of view. How can the bow both stop the vibrations of the string, and at the same time make noise, and loud noise at that? Seems to me like its the second note's attack thats making the noise and not the transition between them.


The sound of the transition (stringplayers, correct me if I'm wrong about this) is actually the culmination of all the different stringplayers hitting that second note at just a slightly different time. So, one individual player will have a slight accent when (s)he plays the second note because of the inertia of the string. But every other player will have this accent at a slightly different time, resulting in a "blur" of note 1, 2 and all the different accents at slightly different timings... This "blur" is your transition sample.

EDIT: I'm talking about rebowing here, but the reasoning is pretty much the same for fingered legato if you take away the part about "light accent due to inertia"


----------



## coprhead6

FireGS said:


> This doesn't make a ton of sense to me, from a physics point of view. How can the bow both stop the vibrations of the string, and at the same time make noise, and loud noise at that? Seems to me like its the second note's attack thats making the noise and not the transition between them.


Compared to a fingered transition there is definitely more noise associated with a bow change. I think it's that initial attack of the 2nd note combined with a pause in the previous note. I'd love to see what exactly they're including in the transition sample.

And yeah Doppler added a lot more


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> How can the bow both stop the vibrations of the string, and at the same time make noise, and loud noise at that?


like a car that stops... but due to crashing at a wall, it will definitely make noise😄


----------



## FireGS

coprhead6 said:


> I think it's that initial attack of the 2nd note combined with a pause in the previous note.


OK, so exactly what I wrote, then? 

The problem here is that MSS, I dont think, sampled actual bow change legato. Just "legato", port, and gliss. The rebow samples aren't the same thing. So how should one emulate the stopping of one note, briefly, and accent the second one? Turn up the volume on a fingered legato?


----------



## Dopplereffect

FireGS said:


> OK, so exactly what I wrote, then?
> 
> The problem here is that MSS, I dont think, sampled actual bow change legato. Just "legato", port, and gliss. The rebow samples aren't the same thing. So how should one emulate the stopping of one note, briefly, and accent the second one? Turn up the volume on a fingered legato?


I think they combined it with a martelé attack


----------



## coprhead6

FireGS said:


> So how should one emulate the stopping of one note, briefly, and accent the second one? Turn up the volume on a fingered legato?


Yeah basically - haha. All I’m saying is that to my ears, boosting the volume sounds more like a bow change, 0db sounds more fingered, and -6db doesn’t sound real and is probably for very soft passages in very high registers or some other special cases.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Dopplereffect said:


> I think they combined it with a martelé attack


----------



## borisb2

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Actually, it's relevant for me cause it's MSS or CSS and i welcome the comparison from those that own both.


will try to squeeze out some quick examples in the evening


----------



## Batrawi

FireGS said:


> OK, so exactly what I wrote, then?
> 
> The problem here is that MSS, I dont think, sampled actual bow change legato. Just "legato", port, and gliss. The rebow samples aren't the same thing. So how should one emulate the stopping of one note, briefly, and accent the second one? Turn up the volume on a fingered legato?


I recall Sebastian mentioned somewhere that you can overlay the various note attacks (of the sustains notes) over the legato transition to simulate bow-change effect. think it was also briefly mentioned in the legato video as well not sure


----------



## FireGS

coprhead6 said:


> Yeah basically - haha. All I’m saying is that to my ears, boosting the volume sounds more like a bow change, 0db sounds more fingered, and -6db doesn’t sound real and is probably for very soft passages in very high registers or some other special cases.


FWIW, it was violas in their lower register.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Robert_G said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure you can choose between these 2 libraries. If you only care about Legato, other basic articulations, and the actual sound....then maybe you could do a fair comparison, but CSS doesn't even have a fraction of the content that MSS has.
> 
> Edit: To be fair...I should note that I own CSS and love it.


No i don't just care about legato. In fact I'm rethinking that a bit. Only legatos with no life at all would be a problem. Sometimes i forget that i love strings with lots of expression but that's not exactly what i actually need right now. I need something that will give me the most realistic results and i think MSS might be it with all the variations, instr. sections and tweakability it offers. Plus it clearly offers the most bang for you bucks that sure. Thanks for you feedback.


----------



## FireGS

Dopplereffect said:


>


I don't see this functionality anywhere, not in the manual, either...


----------



## coprhead6

FireGS said:


> FWIW, it was violas in their lower register.


There would be more bow change and finger noise here because the strings are thicker. It takes more pressure to grab the string with the bow and more finger pressure to depress the note


----------



## Lazer42

bvaughn0402 said:


> I remember that! Anyone remember the thread? Someone posted an actual orchestra like a demo, and people shredded it for sounding fake and synthy.


This is a fair point as far as it goes, but at the same time I do think it's important to remember that one can (almost) always find an exception. For example, I was recently watching some videos where a person was testing "life hacks" from a site known to produce a lot of falsified content and everything they tested was working, but the things they chose to test were all things which were on the much more plausible and reasonable side.

This isn't to say that whoever made that post about the "synthy orchestra" went out of their way to cherry pick - although if they did, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing since there is a point to be made there. It's just that a single or small number of examples don't always give the most comprehensive or representative impression. 

This is a big reason, by the way, that it's important for one to wait for more samples of user produced work before making a decision on how to feel about MSS. I am a bit surprised, for what it's worth, that we haven't seen more examples to this point.


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> Given I already have a big selection of Strings Libraries, I'm having a hard time trying to decide if I still need more Strings Libraries.
> 
> What would MSS & the Legato Exp. provide that I don't have ? do I really need it ? or is it a pure luxury item ? I don't know how many of you are trying to decide if you need MSS, and you already have other String libraries, but it's getting tougher to decide. We also have a few upcoming String libraries that will be out this year, so not an easy decision.
> 
> I'm going to wait, carefully evaluate, and re-evaluate MSS as more videos, demos, walkthroughs surface on the web. No rush this time around, although I would still want to get it at the loyalty discount offer before March 16th if I decide to go for it.
> 
> My last Strings library purchase was OT-BSS, I love the way it sounds. Surely not as deep as MSS with Exp.Legato. But, it was an instant buy for me.


Which string libraries are you waiting for? I'm anticipating Sonokinetic and the Hollywood revamp. Am I missing anything else? MSS was one of the big three (along with Nashville and Vista) that I had been waiting for. I had been kind of dragging my feet on some projects waiting for these libraries so I think that's why I will go ahead and get MSS. I'll just never be happy until I have it under my fingers and try it out for myself. I've also completely changed my mind and will get the full legato package since if you buy everything together you get a further $50 discount. I don't want to kick myself a year from now wishing that I had bought it.


----------



## lettucehat

Hm... it's as though some sort of compromise between the two extremes would likely sound ideal...


----------



## coprhead6

FireGS said:


> OK. I guess I'm crazy then...
> 
> Same MIDI, only difference is one is -6 legato transitions, one is +6 as ya'll recommend. This is an exploding comment and will be deleted shortly, so listen up.
> 
> -6:
> 
> View attachment MSS_Viola_-6.mp3
> 
> 
> +6:
> 
> View attachment MSS_Viola_+6.mp3
> 
> 
> +6 sounds really bad in this context, and I think ya'lls ears need to be checked.


0db is probably a nice balance in this context haha.


----------



## chapbot

FireGS said:


> Close mics you can definitely hear the room slap back a bit. It's less that it seemed on the demos. The close mics are VERY close sounding, and that's why I said that I actually don't prefer them as "main" mics - they're too close, and by themselves aren't a good representation of a string section. Mixing them into the stage mics seems best to me (between -6 and -9db). (kInDa LiKe cSs cLoSe MiCs!! )


Thanks for the feedback. I am guessing that because the short close mic sounded so real and in your face, the close divisi section will also sound very realistic. To me that means you hear more of an individual player.


----------



## FireGS

lettucehat said:


> Hm... it's as though some sort of compromise between the two extremes would likely sound ideal...





coprhead6 said:


> 0db is probably a nice balance in this context haha.



The problem is that neither extremes, nor the middle, sound like bow changes. So, not really. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## lettucehat

FireGS said:


> The problem is that neither extremes, nor the middle, sound like bow changes. So, not really. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Oh I wasn't evaluating them as bow change per se, just general 'goodness'


----------



## FireGS

lettucehat said:


> Oh I wasn't evaluating them as bow change per se, just general 'goodness'


Well that's important to know. If you think a player would just finger legato all of those notes, you're crazy (not saying YOU, specifically). That's the point. I dont know if anyone was actually listening to the line, or just listening "FOR" note transitions, but it's silly to think all of these notes would be slurred legato. Or worse, port. 

Doesn't matter, you do you (not you, specifically, @lettucehat ).


----------



## coprhead6

FireGS said:


> The problem is that neither extremes, nor the middle, sound like bow changes. So, not really. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


FWIW, if I was playing that I would slur the first notes in groups of two, so there would be a bow change every two notes. Maybe you can mess around with CCing the legato volume. 

But yeah I’m going to extricate myself from this since I can’t mess with it myself haha


----------



## FireGS

coprhead6 said:


> FWIW, if I was playing that


Ah! But what it it was notated to bow change? Where's your messiah now! 

No but really, it doesn't matter how *you* would play it, per se, if its notated in the score to bow change, and you slur, you're gonna get singled out by the conductor...maybe. At least Stokowski would be happy..


----------



## chemie262

I used the the same setting as FireGS. No internal reverb. Just a little reverb from Cinematic Rooms.


----------



## Casiquire

Lazer42 said:


> This is a fair point as far as it goes, but at the same time I do think it's important to remember that one can (almost) always find an exception. For example, I was recently watching some videos where a person was testing "life hacks" from a site known to produce a lot of falsified content and everything they tested was working, but the things they chose to test were all things which were on the much more plausible and reasonable side.
> 
> This isn't to say that whoever made that post about the "synthy orchestra" went out of their way to cherry pick - although if they did, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing since there is a point to be made there. It's just that a single or small number of examples don't always give the most comprehensive or representative impression.
> 
> This is a big reason, by the way, that it's important for one to wait for more samples of user produced work before making a decision on how to feel about MSS. I am a bit surprised, for what it's worth, that we haven't seen more examples to this point.


I think the point is that when we're scrutinizing and being critical like this, we're not actually listening for the right things and we're missing the wood for the trees. Which i absolutely think is happening right now.


----------



## Zedcars

I was told it's best to leave it up to the string section to decide where to bow change, unless you have a very good idea of what you want and you know what you are doing. Most string sections will just ignore bowing indications set by the composer anyway. No idea if that's true though.


----------



## Casiquire

FireGS said:


> The problem is that neither extremes, nor the middle, sound like bow changes. So, not really. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Isn't there a bow change articulation? I swear i saw and heard one. How does that sound?


----------



## FireGS

Zedcars said:


> I was told it's best to leave it up to the string section to decide where to bow change, unless you have a very good idea of what you want and you know what you are doing. Most string sections will just ignore bowing indications set by the composer anyway. No idea if that's true though.










Casiquire said:


> Isn't there a bow change articulation? I swear i saw and heard one. How does that sound?


There's rebow, not the same as bow change. There's a bit of a misnomer in the articulations - unless I've completely missed the point, and @dxmachina please help us out here - theres a "bow change" articulation, but it seems that it only triggers the "rebow" button. Can/should "rebow" be used also as a bow change between notes? FWIW, I searched the manual for "bow change" and had zero results.


----------



## Casiquire

FireGS said:


> There's rebow, not the same as bow change. There's a bit of a misnomer in the articulations - unless I've completely missed the point, and @dxmachina please help us out here - theres a "bow change" articulation, but it seems that it only triggers the "rebow" button. Can/should "rebow" be used also as a bow change between notes? FWIW, I searched the manual for "bow change" and had zero results.


I thought it was demonstrated in one of the videos. I'll try and find the time stamp


----------



## FireGS

Casiquire said:


> I thought it was demonstrated in one of the videos. I'll try and find the time stamp


See if you can, I'd love to know how its done.


----------



## dxmachina

Hi guys... yes there is a "Rebow" button that is intended to be used for bow change legato. For those that own the library I would _suggest_ trying this to get a feel:

Open Violins 1 or whatever (I like the split violins so it's a little less dense to start)

1. Ensemble page: Turn Off Auto Divisi so you can do mono overlap-legato
2. Mixer: Turn off our reverb in the mixer
3. Fix the transitions to use legato only (so you don't have to worry about your velocity)... change to slider mode.

Ok now here's a few sounds:

(a) As is... fingered legato at default volume
(b) Push Transition volume to around 3dB
(c) Now turn _on_ "Rebow" (with more room in the interface it would have been named more verbosely)

You can of course adjust to taste further - especially depending on your mic mix.

See what you think. There's a silly amount of legato control available if you want it.


----------



## Frederick

Is there anyone else that didn't get their confirmation e-mail with the serial numbers? MSS nor the expansion showed up in my product downloader either. Initially I had my payment confirmation screen still open and I could add my products on a special user account forum page and only then I could download. When the downloads were finished and I was about to enter the full serial numbers in the NI installer, I noticed I didn't have the confirmation e-mail. My payment confirmation screen was long closed, so I e-mailed them for the serial numbers, but more than 12 hours later I still haven't got a reply from them.

In the meantime I was able to retrieve my serial numbers by going into the history of my browser and then use the back button a couple of times. I didn't know the whole session for that tab was saved. Pfew!

I think the library in itself is great and that the main problem so far is that with all the settings it's easy to get into trouble - apparently even for the development team: From what I've gathered in this thread the width setting at 100% in the ensemble screen seems to be an unfortunate default value as it resulted in doubts about legato and the sound of the room and ten pages of phasing analysis. Personally I don't care, for me the tweakability is the star of the show. And when you can't get it to work with the main patch you can try with the intuition patch. What other library does offer that?

By the way, to make space for the MSS expansion I deleted NI Symphonic Strings.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> I thought it was demonstrated in one of the videos. I'll try and find the time stamp


You'll find it at 7:10 of the legato video.


----------



## dxmachina

@Frederick Don't want to use this for support, but we have been trying to respond within minutes to each email. I'm wondering if all the emails are in your spam folder? Either way - PM me and I'll make sure you get your stuff


----------



## Hanu_H

chemie262 said:


> I used the the same setting as FireGS. No internal reverb. Just a little reverb from Cinematic Rooms.


This sounds really good. Not synthy at all, just strings in a really nice hall.


----------



## FKVStudio

I'm about to pull the trigger. I'm going to check it out with my pillow today and we'll see tomorrow.

The sound is spectacular for me, so for that part, I at least, do not put any problem.

Congratulations to the guys at Audiobro.


----------



## Alex Niedt

Hanu_H said:


> This sounds really good. Not synthy at all, just strings in a really nice hall.


Maybe I'm confused about what people mean by "synthy", but some of this literally sounds like someone playing chords on a synth, to me. I'd never, ever mistake that for a real string performance. Not saying that's necessarily the library's fault, though.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> You'll find it at 7:10 of the legato video.


i got to say the legato(with rebow off) works really well in this demonstration. Going from normal legato to accented legato and back. With rebow on works well enough to be usable in this example as well.

Also, one thing i really like is the 3 attack variations on all 4 velocities. That kind of the detail really gets my attention.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Alex Niedt said:


> Maybe I'm confused about what people mean by "synthy", but some of this literally sounds like someone playing chords on a synth, to me. I'd never, ever mistake that for a real string performance. Not saying that's necessarily the library's fault, though.


De coloribus, gustibus et sonoribus non disputandum est.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Alex Niedt said:


> Maybe I'm confused about what people mean by "synthy", but some of this literally sounds like someone playing chords on a synth, to me. I'd never, ever mistake that for a real string performance. Not saying that's necessarily the library's fault, though.


i think people are referring more to the sound of the strings here no so much mock up skills. imo.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Alex Niedt said:


> Maybe I'm confused about what people mean by "synthy", but some of this literally sounds like someone playing chords on a synth, to me. I'd never, ever mistake that for a real string performance. Not saying that's necessarily the library's fault, though.


I'm probably confused too, but I'd love to know which synth you use that sounds like this.

The term synthy gets thrown around this forum quite frequently as of late. Perhaps synths are starting to sound more "samply".


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Does anyone else think the (wonderful) Lullaby For The Planet demo sounds massively like Cinematic Studio Strings?

Just confusing because I'm very good at spotting libraries and use CSS since years... so it's odd that my ears are so convinced that it's CSS. I don't have the impression when listening to the other demos.


----------



## prodigalson

Has anyone done a demo of anything yet that just shows the strings totally dry without any of their built-in reverbs? Like, not ”out of the box” but as dry as the strings can sound? 

Can anyone do that?


----------



## borisb2

Here's a quick phrase I just improvised:
(quickly fixed some dynamic bumps in CC1 curve but that definitly would need more love)







1. Dry Mic
2. Dry + Mix Mic
3. Mix Mic
4. Dry + Mix Mic + added Lexicon Reverb
5. gave that line some harmonic context

I tried a bit automating the Rebow on some notes - needs some massage I guess

@dxmachina, is it correct to say that the volume knob on the legato does not change the volume on the rebow-legato transitions? .. which would be too bad, I find them a bit too in your face .. but I do like th overall sound


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

borisb2 said:


> Here's a quick phrase I just improvised:
> 
> 
> 1. Dry Mic
> 2. Dry + Mix Mic
> 3. Mix Mic
> 4. Dry + Mix Mic + added Lexicon Reverb
> 
> I tried a bit automating the Rebow on some notes - needs some massage I guess
> 
> @dxmachina, is it correct to say that the volume knob on the legato does not change the volume on the rebow-legato transitions? .. whcih would be too bad, I find them a bit too in your face .. but I do like th overall sound


Thos Soundcloud examples want to load but then they stop some how?


----------



## borisb2

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Thos Soundcloud examples want to load but then they stop some how?


fixed .. sorry, had wrong link


----------



## Russell Anderson

coprhead6 said:


> To my violist ears, the boosted legato transition volume in the video sounded the best to me - and the reduced volume sounded the least realistic.
> Also the bow change legato sounds awesome! I haven’t heard anything like this before.


To my oboist ears I felt the opposite about the boosted volume, but this is something where sitting in front of the library hitting notes for 10 minutes and moving the knob around would easily allow us both to get the desired result, it sounds like. It also probably depends on what each of us was imagining doing with that transition. I was one who early on suggested lowering the transvolume to -6 on the bowed legato, but I tend to go with big moves first and adjust after, especially when I have no idea what I’m doing yet.


----------



## clisma

DarkestShadow said:


> Does anyone else think the (wonderful) Lullaby For The Planet demo sounds massively like Cinematic Studio Strings?
> 
> Just confusing because I'm very good at spotting libraries and use CSS since years... so it's odd that my ears are so convinced that it's CSS. I don't have the impression when listening to the other demos.


Not really for me, CSS user too. The vibrato is nowhere near.

Edit: When the Violins come in, I can hear more similarity in tone, yes.


----------



## lettucehat

borisb2 said:


> Here's a quick phrase I just improvised:


Thought it would fall apart at the high register but it actually got better! Nice material for prospective buyers to hear.


----------



## Smikes77

FireGS said:


> Close mics you can definitely hear the room slap back a bit. It's less that it seemed on the demos. The close mics are VERY close sounding, and that's why I said that I actually don't prefer them as "main" mics - they're too close, and by themselves aren't a good representation of a string section. Mixing them into the stage mics seems best to me (between -6 and -9db). (kInDa LiKe cSs cLoSe MiCs!! )


Could they do this? The gritty up close sound...


----------



## jonnybutter

dxmachina said:


> @Frederick Don't want to use this for support, but we have been trying to respond within minutes to each email. I'm wondering if all the emails are in your spam folder? Either way - PM me and I'll make sure you get your stuff


I would just note too, that I had a problem with the ADL, mentioned it on the forum, and Sebastian fixed it and responded within about 5 minutes (or less). I’m sure everyone is tired, but they are on the case


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

borisb2 said:


> fixed .. sorry, had wrong link


Thanks for taking the time. The sounds is good imo. I especially like the close mic. Sounds like you used the normal and acc. legato and i think these tow articulation can do a lot. But i think a slower/smoother legato might have been useful here. Hard to tell. I wonder if, with divisi turned off, and one section playing portamento(fast)mixed with other sections playing normal legatos might smooth those not so smooth transition? That's what cool about divisi in that it offers one more layer of tweakability. Not sure if it would work. Thanks again. Got to get something to eat now. Cheers.


----------



## muziksculp

Alex Niedt said:


> Maybe I'm confused about what people mean by "synthy", but some of this literally sounds like someone playing chords on a synth, to me. I'd never, ever mistake that for a real string performance. Not saying that's necessarily the library's fault, though.


Are you hearing the Synthy sound in that short demo's String Timbre, or in the way it is performed, imho. they are two different things.


----------



## lettucehat

Now that a few people have the library up and running, would anyone be willing to sketch something out with the first chairs on top of the sections, or on top of a divisi section? I'm curious to see how much detail we can hear when approaching smaller ensemble sizes that some other libraries use.


----------



## artomatic

chapbot said:


> Which string libraries are you waiting for?




I might pull the trigger on MSS eventually. 
But I'm waiting for Jasper's "Voyage". That's an instant buy for me.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Alex Niedt said:


> Maybe I'm confused about what people mean by "synthy", but some of this literally sounds like someone playing chords on a synth, to me. I'd never, ever mistake that for a real string performance. Not saying that's necessarily the library's fault, though.


That is interesting ... I get confused when people use that term, like the strings sound like a Moog or Oberheim. But, maybe to your point, they mean more like block chords in an ensemble like patch.


----------



## muziksculp

bvaughn0402 said:


> That is interesting ... I get confused when people use that term, like the strings sound like a Moog or Oberheim. But, maybe to your point, they mean more like block chords in an ensemble like patch.


That's why I asked if he hears the Synthy sound in the Timbre of the Strings, or in the Performance, since it is easy to play a great sounding string patch from a high-quality sample library in the wrong fashion, and make it sound like a Korg M1 Combination String patch


----------



## soulofsound

muziksculp said:


> That's why I asked if he hears the Synthy sound in the Timbre of the Strings, or in the Performance, since it is easy to play a great sounding string patch from a high-quality sample library in the wrong fashion, and make it sound like a Korg M1 Combination String patch


Very true


----------



## Alex Niedt

muziksculp said:


> Are you hearing the Synthy sound in that short demo's String Timbre, or in the way it is performed, imho. they are two different things.


I'd say it's down to the performance, but it's hard to separate the two, because one gives a skewed impression of the other. You can easily make a library with a generally beautiful tone sound atrocious, which is why it's so important to have demos from people who really understand how real instruments play and sound (like Andy Blaney for Spitfire or Sascha Knorr for Orchestral Tools). If one of those guys made a convincing legato-heavy, lyrical demo for MSS, I'd buy the library in a heartbeat. I know I could grab the base library without the expanded legatos, but they're such an important aspect of the music I want to make that it makes no sense for me to do so. For a cheaper library, I'd just buy it anyway and hope I can do better than the stuff I'm hearing, but this is a lot of money, haha


----------



## muziksculp

Alex Niedt said:


> I'd say it's down to the performance, but it's hard to separate the two, because one gives a skewed impression of the other. You can easily make a library with a generally beautiful tone sound atrocious, which is why it's so important to have demos from people who really understand how real instruments play and sound (like Andy Blaney for Spitfire or Sascha Knorr for Orchestral Tools). If one of those guys made a convincing legato-heavy, lyrical demo for MSS, I'd buy the library in a heartbeat. I know I could grab the base library without the expanded legatos, but they're such an important aspect of the music I want to make that it makes no sense for me to do so. For a cheaper library, I'd just buy it anyway and hope I can do better than the stuff I'm hearing, but this is a lot of money, haha


Yes, it's hard to pinpoint the cause, but given this is not a synth library, and has been in development for a long time, and carefully constructed to deliver realistic results, by a very experienced team, I would say it is most likely the performance that's causing the synthyness. 

I know it is quite a costly library, I'm in the same boat, trying to evaluate it carefully, and not rushing to buy, given all the rich feature sets it offers. This is surely not a bare-bone simple strings library, but rather a super-high-quality-sophisticated strings library.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> Here's a quick phrase I just improvised:
> (quickly fixed some dynamic bumps in CC1 curve but that definitly would need more love)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Dry Mic
> 2. Dry + Mix Mic
> 3. Mix Mic
> 4. Dry + Mix Mic + added Lexicon Reverb
> 
> I tried a bit automating the Rebow on some notes - needs some massage I guess
> 
> @dxmachina, is it correct to say that the volume knob on the legato does not change the volume on the rebow-legato transitions? .. which would be too bad, I find them a bit too in your face .. but I do like th overall sound



As a comparison here are 4 alt string libs playing same line with just their respective mix mikes.
BBC is core mix1. Could be wrong but closest sound to me is BBC . Not much in it overall though and the legato is not a game changer in the above example. I think we are still a way off replacing the real thing , musicians playing live together. Maybe someone could do the same but really massaging the rebow controls etc to see if Mss can be improved in the leg department.


----------



## artomatic

Just curious:
For those of you who already purchased this library, did you buy just the MSS core or did you buy it with MSS Expanded Legato?
Thanks.


----------



## BasariStudios

Ok, i own HollyWood Strings Diamond, Synchron Strings Pro and BBC SO PRO
as full Strings Libraries but then i own VSL Appasionatta Standard, VSL Ochestra
Standard, VSL Smart Orchestra XP, Jaeger, Spitfire Originals, Epic and Intimate Strings,
Spitfire Abbey Road One, Orchestral Tools MA 1 High and Low Strings and few others.
By my list on top it looks like only 3 of them are Full Blown Strings Libraries.
Is that a lot? Do i need MSS? I am just trying to justify or unjustify, please help?
It looks like a lot but i do not really own any awesome Library except Synchron Strings Pro.


----------



## Evans

molemac said:


> As a comparison here are 4 alt string libs playing same line with just their respective mix mikes.
> BBC is core mix1. Could be wrong but closest sound to me is BBC . Not much in it overall though and the legato is not a game changer in the above example. I think we are still a way off replacing the real thing , musicians playing live together. Maybe someone could do the same but really massaging the rebow controls etc to see if Mss can be improved in the leg department.


Instructions unclear. Bought Spitfire Chamber Strings and, somehow, Nashville Scoring Strings.


----------



## Evans

BasariStudios said:


> It looks like a lot but i do not really own any awesome Library except Synchron Strings Pro.


... like, no. You own a lot of awesome libraries, in my opinion.

So, yeah, no.


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> As a comparison here are 4 alt string libs playing same line with just their respective mix mikes.
> BBC is core mix1. Could be wrong but closest sound to me is BBC . Not much in it overall though and the legato is not a game changer in the above example. I think we are still a way off replacing the real thing , musicians playing live together. Maybe someone could do the same but really massaging the rebow controls etc to see if Mss can be improved in the leg department.


great comparision! NZ power 

gave that example some harmonic context (cheesy I know  - and for sure no motivic mastery here, just a quick legato example to bring MSS into context)


I also started to tweak what notes get crescendo, normal sustain or accented .. so cool to have all that so easily accessible
CC1 controls dynamics, velocity control sustain type and extra CC controls rebow


----------



## BasariStudios

Evans said:


> ... like, no. You own a lot of awesome libraries, in my opinion.
> 
> So, yeah, no.


I feel Hollywood Strings is too old already, BBC SO PRO it has its own Space
and Synchron Strings Pro is the King of all of them. Now the rest of them i
don't even count as full Strings Libraries, its all pieces here and there except
Jaeger, which has ok Strings. MSS looks like another level, i am not sure.


----------



## muziksculp

BasariStudios said:


> Ok, i own HollyWood Strings Diamond, Synchron Strings Pro and BBC SO PRO
> as full Strings Libraries but then i own VSL Appasionatta Standard, VSL Ochestra
> Standard, VSL Smart Orchestra XP, Jaeger, Spitfire Originals, Epic and Intimate Strings,
> Spitfire Abbey Road One, Orchestral Tools MA 1 High and Low Strings and few others.
> By my list on top it looks like only 3 of them are Full Blown Strings Libraries.
> Is that a lot? Do i need MSS? I am just trying to justify or unjustify, please help?
> It looks like a lot but i do not really own any awesome Library except Synchron Strings Pro.


@BasariStudios ,

I'm sorry to inform you that you can't have enough String Libraries 

i.e. MSS offers features that are not in any of the libraries you mentioned, and there will be newer Strings libraries that will offer more features, and different sonic characteristics.

GAS is a very real thing when it comes to String libraries.


----------



## BasariStudios

muziksculp said:


> @BasariStudios ,
> 
> I'm sorry to inform you that you can't have enough String Libraries
> 
> i.e. MSS offers features that are not in any of the libraries you mentioned, and there will be newer Strings libraries that will offer more features, and different sonic characteristics.
> 
> GAS is a very real thing when it comes to String libraries.


Who should i start Cursing out first?


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> Ok, i own HollyWood Strings Diamond, Synchron Strings Pro and BBC SO PRO
> as full Strings Libraries but then i own VSL Appasionatta Standard, VSL Ochestra
> Standard, VSL Smart Orchestra XP, Jaeger, Spitfire Originals, Epic and Intimate Strings,
> Spitfire Abbey Road One, Orchestral Tools MA 1 High and Low Strings and few others.
> By my list on top it looks like only 3 of them are Full Blown Strings Libraries.
> Is that a lot? Do i need MSS? I am just trying to justify or unjustify, please help?
> It looks like a lot but i do not really own any awesome Library except Synchron Strings Pro.


in the same boat. I have DSS, Appassionata, CSS , CS1 and 2, All Spitfire (albions etc), BBCo, Abbeyr1, SCS, Lass 2 , Lass sordino, Berlin strings I could go on.
I never really am happy with any of them as far as getting close to the real thing which I get to use reasonably often and was hoping that MSS would put an end to the madness of which ones to chose when writing my string parts . It may still be the case but I am just waiting for more user demos before pulling the plug.


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> in the same boat. I have DSS, Appassionata, CSS , CS1 and 2, All Spitfire (albions etc), BBCo, Abbeyr1, SCS, Lass 2 , Lass sordino, Berlin strings I could go on.
> I never really am happy with any of them as far as getting close to the real thing which I get to use reasonably often and was hoping that MSS would put an end to the madness of which ones to chose when writing my string parts . It may still be the case but I am just waiting for more user demos before pulling the plug.


Since last October i have not composed a note yet, i am just buying 
Libraries and fixing Templates...for what? I could've finished an album 
or a whole Movie score by now with what i have. What a sick game.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

So I wasn't going to post this at first, but since @FireGS pulled his demos down, I decided to upload these so you can hear the strings more exposed. This was originally made for CSB, and then CSS, and now MSS, so keep this in mind. I didn't muck with the MIDI, but I did muck with the MSS settings to make the responsiveness closer to CSS.

There are files without verb, and with external verb. There are also files for the standard legato, con sort legato, sul tasto legato, and sul ponticello legato.









MSS Demos


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Edit: This is the Mix mic only for all, FYI. The external verb is Spaces II, Davies Violins-Celli FR TS

Edit 2 (9/17): Original files have been replaced with revised versions.


----------



## BasariStudios

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I wasn't going to post this at first, but since @FireGS pulled his demos down, I decided to upload these so you can hear the strings more exposed. This was originally made for CSB, and then CSS, and now MSS, so keep this in mind. I didn't muck with the MIDI, but I did muck with the MSS settings to make the responsiveness closer to CSS.
> 
> There are files without verb, and with external verb. There are also files for the standard legato, con sort legato, sul tasto legato, and sul ponticello legato.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: This is the Mix mic only for all, FYI. The external verb is Spaces II, Davies Violins-Celli FR tS


Thanks for your effort and time Duncan, will check right now.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> great comparision! NZ power
> 
> gave that example some harmonic context (cheesy I know )



Nothing wrong with the harmonies but the string top line playing/programming needs a lot of attention . Go kiwi you can do it


----------



## Evans

BasariStudios said:


> Since last October i have not composed a note yet, i am just buying
> Libraries and fixing Templates...for what? I could've finished an album
> or a whole Movie score by now with what i have. What a sick game.


Ooh, this is an easy one! Don't come to VI-Control unless

You are multi-tasking on your phone while hanging out with the family; or
You are multi-tasking on your phone while you are on the toilet.
Even just the second option gives me a good, few hours per day at the forums.


----------



## muziksculp

Not having enjoyed using LASS & LS, (I know, I know.. I'm in a very small minority here, given they are very popular libraries). But, I rarely used them. 

So, I see MSS & Exp. Legatos as an opportunity to reverse that, given all the new features, and improved timbre I'm hearing in the library, also the hugely improved GUI, and Auto-Divisi System, compared to LASS 2.5. But, I'm being super cautious this time around. 

I will most likely delete LASS 2.5 & LS, if I end up buying MSS & Exp. Legatos, and also hope that LASS 3 with it's new GUI later this year will be the real replacement for LASS 2.5 

Meanwhile, more demos, videos, from AudioBro, and MSS users would be the best way to further evaluate it.


----------



## BasariStudios

muziksculp said:


> Not having enjoyed using LASS & LS, (I know, I know.. I'm in a very small minority here, given they are very popular libraries). But, I rarely used them.
> 
> So, I see MSS & Exp. Legatos as an opportunity to reverse that, given all the new features, and improved timbre I'm hearing in the library, also the hugely improved GUI, and Auto-Divisi System, compared to LASS 2.5. But, I'm being super cautious this time around.
> 
> I will most likely delete LASS 2.5 & LS, if I end up buying MSS & Exp. Legatos, and also hope that LASS 3 with it's new GUI later this year will be the real replacement for LASS 2.5
> 
> Meanwhile, more demos, videos, from AudioBro, and MSS users would be the best way to further evaluate it.


I hope we have time for the Discount, if i get it i will get it Full.


----------



## muziksculp

BasariStudios said:


> I hope we have time for the Discount, if i get it i will get it Full.


Same here.


----------



## BasariStudios

muziksculp said:


> Same here.


I think this Library makes no sense to not get it full, if it is as good 
as it seems and as i expected to be then Full is the only sense it
makes and replace a lot of my other stuff.


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> Nothing wrong with the harmonies but the string top line playing/programming needs a lot of attention . Go kiwi you can do it


I know .. maybe later I find some time.. it was a quick legato test - no motivic mastery involved for sure


----------



## Denkii

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I wasn't going to post this at first, but since @FireGS pulled his demos down, I decided to upload these so you can hear the strings more exposed. This was originally made for CSB, and then CSS, and now MSS, so keep this in mind. I didn't muck with the MIDI, but I did muck with the MSS settings to make the responsiveness closer to CSS.
> 
> There are files without verb, and with external verb. There are also files for the standard legato, con sort legato, sul tasto legato, and sul ponticello legato.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: This is the Mix mic only for all, FYI. The external verb is Spaces II, Davies Violins-Celli FR TS


You would have been the boss of this thread if you had left the CSS demos in there for reference.
Any chance on getting you to add them?

Edit: Just wanted to add that I remember this demo from another thread but I could not find it again even if I tried. I think it is a very lovely little thing though.


----------



## BasariStudios

Are you f-ing serous? WTF is my PC trying to tell me?
I just saw this now and MSS Full is 190GB. What?


----------



## constaneum

borisb2 said:


> Here's a quick phrase I just improvised:
> (quickly fixed some dynamic bumps in CC1 curve but that definitly would need more love)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Dry Mic
> 2. Dry + Mix Mic
> 3. Mix Mic
> 4. Dry + Mix Mic + added Lexicon Reverb
> 5. gave that line some harmonic context
> 
> I tried a bit automating the Rebow on some notes - needs some massage I guess
> 
> @dxmachina, is it correct to say that the volume knob on the legato does not change the volume on the rebow-legato transitions? .. which would be too bad, I find them a bit too in your face .. but I do like th overall sound




not bad. quite a clean silky sound without the mushy madness from the reverb as heard by default. curious on the legato....is it the legato not having smooth note connection ? is that that really caused by the rebow-legato transition volume which makes it sound like each note has the "accent" initial attack like sound ? Have you tried opting for "norm"? can it be done that way in terms of control ?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I have owned LASS Full for many years - and never use it. Not because it doesn't have enough functionality (it has plenty) but because of the tone and that generally bone dry sound being less inspiring to work with, even through a reverb, than libraries recorded in great spaces. That's what I've generally learned about myself - functionality is important, but unless the tone inspires you, the library will inevitably be destined for the sample graveyard. A couple of MSS demos sound quite good, but not sure they capture my imagination quite the same way as something like Spitfire demos (they're great at showing off their libraries) or Hollywood Orchestra or VSL (love Synchron Strings Pro's demos personally). Perhaps because the market is relatively saturated now too - a new library and the demos really need to showcase something blatantly new or better.

MSS has no shortage of functionality and advanced control, but it'll come down to the sound for me. I look forward to hearing more user demos and walkthroughs in the coming weeks.


----------



## constaneum

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I wasn't going to post this at first, but since @FireGS pulled his demos down, I decided to upload these so you can hear the strings more exposed. This was originally made for CSB, and then CSS, and now MSS, so keep this in mind. I didn't muck with the MIDI, but I did muck with the MSS settings to make the responsiveness closer to CSS.
> 
> There are files without verb, and with external verb. There are also files for the standard legato, con sort legato, sul tasto legato, and sul ponticello legato.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: This is the Mix mic only for all, FYI. The external verb is Spaces II, Davies Violins-Celli FR TS



ooooo...the con sord is lovely.


----------



## BasariStudios

So it has started, i think this is the first one:


----------



## chapbot

artomatic said:


> Just curious:
> For those of you who already purchased this library, did you buy just the MSS core or did you buy it with MSS Expanded Legato?
> Thanks.


I wasn't going to, but then decided I might as well get it with the extra $50 discount if you buy both.


----------



## Denkii

BasariStudios said:


> So it has started, i think this is the first one:



This is one of the official demos


----------



## TintoL

borisb2 said:


> Here's a quick phrase I just improvised:
> (quickly fixed some dynamic bumps in CC1 curve but that definitly would need more love)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Dry Mic
> 2. Dry + Mix Mic
> 3. Mix Mic
> 4. Dry + Mix Mic + added Lexicon Reverb
> 5. gave that line some harmonic context
> 
> I tried a bit automating the Rebow on some notes - needs some massage I guess
> 
> @dxmachina, is it correct to say that the volume knob on the legato does not change the volume on the rebow-legato transitions? .. which would be too bad, I find them a bit too in your face .. but I do like th overall sound



You earned a little place in heaven for doing this sir.

These examples are 100% more useful than the audio information in the audiobro page. 

Such a big difference. Thanks for doing this.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Denkii said:


> You would have been the boss of this thread if you had left the CSS demos in there for reference.
> Any chance on getting you to add them?
> 
> Edit: Just wanted to add that I remember this demo from another thread but I could not find it again even if I tried. I think it is a very lovely little thing though.


Good point! I've added them back to the dropbox folder. Again, this is here:









MSS Demos


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





If I remember correctly these also have Spaces II on them, but I believe it's the Berlin Church. Well, one of those anyways.

Edit (9/17): Original files have been replaced with revised versions.


----------



## Toecutter

Alex Niedt said:


> Maybe I'm confused about what people mean by "synthy", but some of this literally sounds like someone playing chords on a synth, to me. I'd never, ever mistake that for a real string performance. Not saying that's necessarily the library's fault, though.


I'm very thankful for the clips posted so far, you guys are awesome!! I agree with you Alex, I'm hearing Roland synth from the 90s XD My gut feeling tells me I'm dodging a very expensive bullet... I heard too many issues and I don't want to sound like I'm on a witch hunt since I already have a strong opinion about LASS. Unless I hear something that blows my mind, I guess it's a pass and wait for HOOPUS, Abbey modular, Cinesamples, Sonokinetic strings or whatever library gives me a better first impression. It shouldn't be this hard for me to like this library, you know?


----------



## TintoL

molemac said:


> As a comparison here are 4 alt string libs playing same line with just their respective mix mikes.
> BBC is core mix1. Could be wrong but closest sound to me is BBC . Not much in it overall though and the legato is not a game changer in the above example. I think we are still a way off replacing the real thing , musicians playing live together. Maybe someone could do the same but really massaging the rebow controls etc to see if Mss can be improved in the leg department.


Love the SCS......Thanks for doing this.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Duncan Krummel said:


> Good point! I've added them back to the dropbox folder. Again, this is here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly these also have Spaces II on them, but I believe it's the Berlin Church. Well, one of those anyways.


CSS does sound very good - as you would expect since you wrote it / programmed the MIDI with that in mind. MSS with verb is ok, but doesn't come across as warm and lush. Also, the faster notes sounded better with CSS to me, so maybe MSS needs some custom legato tweaking there. MSS also slips into portamento it seems at times, which is distracting.


----------



## TintoL

Duncan Krummel said:


> Good point! I've added them back to the dropbox folder. Again, this is here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly these also have Spaces II on them, but I believe it's the Berlin Church. Well, one of those anyways.


You also earned a place in heaven for these examples. The piece sounds great. 

I will choose the CSS version over the MSS by a large gap. 

I can hear in the fast passages of the notes how MSS struggles. Just like It shows in the audiobro videos. However, your versions sounds a lot better than the examples in the website. IMHO.


----------



## molemac

Duncan Krummel said:


> Good point! I've added them back to the dropbox folder. Again, this is here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly these also have Spaces II on them, but I believe it's the Berlin Church. Well, one of those anyways.


To my ears listening to this example ( but just listening on an iPad Pro) css is much clearer in detail but I dont want to start a CSS love in again , sorry. To be clear though , this was programmed for and with CSS so slightly unfair to just import the midi into MSS but still ....


----------



## molemac

Saxer said:


> I stay with the piano until the orchestration is done. Then I copy the notes to the single string tracks or play it in while reading from the score editor window (in Logic).


Hi Saxer, just wondering if you are following any of this and your initial thoughts on MSS . Always value your opinion hugely.


----------



## muziksculp

Regarding the MSS stage sound, Listen to how full, rich, and gritty the Celli shorts sound without the built-in MSS IR sounds, especially the close Mic. They sound awesome to me. Hope to hear more demos showing the Short articulations of MSS in action.


----------



## soulofsound

molemac said:


> To my ears listening to this example ( but just listening on an iPad Pro) css is much clearer in detail but I dont want to start a CSS love in again , sorry. To be clear though , this was programmed for and with CSS so slightly unfair to just import the midi into MSS but still ....


Yes, i have never heard an example of a midi file written for one library, sound even remotely ok when played back with another. Some people seem to derive all kinds of conclusions from those examples, which to me seems impossible.


----------



## ism

BasariStudios said:


> So it has started, i think this is the first one:





I generally prefer wet libraries, but there really is a quality in this - “delicate crunchyness” I think I’m going to call it.

And the sordinos really are great. But still nothing on the sut tastos though ... the suspense is killing me...


----------



## Vik

Duncan Krummel said:


> Good point! I've added them back to the dropbox folder.


These examples give a very unfavorable impression of MSS, and sound very different from any of the MSS examples I’ve heard so far. Looking forward to user examples that originally are made for MSS!


----------



## Russell Anderson

As we speak, I’m trying to write the Vista main demo in SCS as a way of getting to know the library more deeply and clarify whether I “need” to buy anything to fill any “gaps” I have (later, Prokofiev Piano Concerto No. 3 is a project when I upgrade ram)... The midi matters. A lot. In the case of SCS, so does patch selection. Maybe it’s not the same for CSS, but many libraries are capable of being very emotive when you massage them for a part, (not always) regardless of the part. I’m not a user of HS, but I’m sure anyone who is (or any anyone who’s listened to enough experienced user demos) can affirm this.


----------



## dzilizzi

Casiquire said:


> I think the point is that when we're scrutinizing and being critical like this, we're not actually listening for the right things and we're missing the wood for the trees. Which i absolutely think is happening right now.


I think the wood is in the instruments. 

I'm waiting for the user demos. I can wait.


----------



## turnerofwheels

OK I finally had a chance to bang out an abx comparison, as close as it gets...

Four libraries, 30s each. Only close mics used, no fx, no EQ, all built in panning. Each section is around -15 LUFS. Where possible, I used rebowing, different attacks and the odd portamento. No fast legato this time though






Spoiler: Answers



1. Con Moto
2. Spitfire Chamber Strings
3. MSS
4. Cinestrings


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Vik said:


> These examples give a very unfavorable impression of MSS, and sound very different from any of the MSS examples I’ve heard so far. Looking forward to user examples that originally are made for MSS!


Completely fair point. I’m also not particularly in love with MSS’ performance on this very unfair test. With that said, I’m very fond of the results of the extended legato library.

For the record, since MSS’ handling of fast lines in my demo were a weaker part of it, I think it’s worth mentioning that the playability of fast lines with MSS’ default legato is actually significantly better than CSS. I played a couple of fast passages and arpeggios on my keyboard and they sounded a cut above any other string library I own.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK I finally had a chance to bang out an abx comparison, as close as it gets...
> 
> Four libraries, 30s each. Only close mics used, no fx, no EQ, all built in panning. Each section is around -15 LUFS. Where possible, I used rebowing, different attacks and the odd portamento. No fast legato this time though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Answers
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Con Moto
> 2. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 3. MSS
> 4. Cinestrings



Damn i was pretty close. Did you have any issue with the normal legato? Did you have to tweak it a lot? Seems like some of the legato examples we hear before were not smooth. Thanks.


----------



## jazzman7

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Damn i was pretty close. Did you have any issue with the normal legato? Did you have to tweak it a lot? Seems like some of the legato examples we hear before were not smooth. Thanks.


Thanks for putting this together, Shane! I'd give my reaction but I don't want to skew anyone's listening experience


----------



## turnerofwheels

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Damn i was pretty close. Did you have any issue with the normal legato? Did you have to tweak it a lot? Seems like some of the legato examples we hear before were not smooth. Thanks.


The violins especially. There's even more controls than the other obvious contender on that list, so tweaking is the name of the game I suspect... the interface does make it easy to access those things, though. I could see it getting a lot faster once I've used this a few times.

There's little details like for the V1's I found dynamics much more reactive to CC1 than other libraries around the mp-f range, a tiny jump in the wrong place and you'd really notice. Also the vibrato is more restrained--but the solo violin is a bit more expressive, so that could work with the layering.


----------



## tebling

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK I finally had a chance to bang out an abx comparison, as close as it gets...


Who doesn't like guessing games? This was fun.

#1 I guessed this one right because I've been using it a ton lately.
#2 My least favorite. I was a bit surprised as I own this one, but never used the close mics in isolation.
#3 A big relief after #2, so it seems like a bit of a set up! I guessed Afflatus Lush Strings but was wrong.
#4 Had no idea.

Interesting test, but I wouldn't base a purchase on close mics alone.


----------



## jazzman7

I actually like 2 and 3 the most. The violins on MSS seem to be the most problematic for me. A bit thin


----------



## bvaughn0402

When I listened, I liked #2 because it sounded more real to me. #1 and #3 I had a hard time picking as my #2. They sounded very similar to me. #4 was my least favorite.


----------



## turnerofwheels

tebling said:


> Who doesn't like guessing games? This was fun.
> 
> #1 I guessed this one right because I've been using it a ton lately.
> #2 My least favorite. I was a bit surprised as I own this one, but never used the close mics in isolation.
> #3 A big relief after #2, so it seems like a bit of a set up! I guessed Afflatus Lush Strings but was wrong.
> #4 Had no idea.
> 
> Interesting test, but I wouldn't base a purchase on close mics alone.


I almost added in that exact patch you thought was #3, even had it loaded up but I guess time constraints..

Yes, I wouldn't either. But I figured that since others have been saying that the close mics are the most useable part of MSS, I'd compare those to a few other common libraries.


----------



## Russell Anderson

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK I finally had a chance to bang out an abx comparison, as close as it gets...
> 
> Four libraries, 30s each. Only close mics used, no fx, no EQ, all built in panning. Each section is around -15 LUFS. Where possible, I used rebowing, different attacks and the odd portamento.





Spoiler: My answers



1) Vista
2) SCS
3) MSS or CSS (but I think brighter and also less clear than CSS, so I’m leaning MSS though this is not a flattering example for me; also the super upfront sound of the close mics in this one having been described about MSS is another clue for me)
4) MSS or... I mean maybe CSS? One of these 4 is a mystery library to me, but I’m confident in the molto of 1 being Vista, the delicate grand and slightly nasal sound of SCS as 2, and from there I don’t know enough. I’m unaware of what the close mics of CSS sound like, 4 could be that, but the mix sounds less flattering than I’m used to for CSS (could be just the close mics



For Shane: would you be willing to upload a quick MP4 demonstrating the automations you used for the legato controls on the MSS example? Even just an mp4 of the interface itself so we can see each of the knobs moving would be enough for me. 

Personally I wouldn’t mind setting up the mic mixes to be as flattering as you could for each library, per the music and your own personal taste. Naked close is not often used by many is my guess. But this is all up to you; your time, your library, and I appreciate what you’ve done for everyone with this test. I came really close! Wish I was more confident in some of my guesses; wishywashiness doesn’t earn points.


----------



## chapbot

SHANE TURNER said:


> I almost added in that exact patch you thought was #3, even had it loaded up but I guess time constraints..
> 
> Yes, I wouldn't either. But I figured that since others have been saying that the close mics are the most useable part of MSS, I'd compare those to a few other common libraries.


I was surprised at 3, I didn't think it could be that dry?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

SHANE TURNER said:


> The violins especially. There's even more controls than the other obvious contender on that list, so tweaking is the name of the game I suspect... the interface does make it easy to access those things, though. I could see it getting a lot faster once I've used this a few times.
> 
> There's little details like for the V1's I found dynamics much more reactive to CC1 than other libraries around the mp-f range, a tiny jump in the wrong place and you'd really notice. Also the vibrato is more restrained--but the solo violin is a bit more expressive, so that could work with the layering.


My i ask what you did to smooth out the legato violins in MSS? Was it the use off CCs in the midi editor or di you raise the transition volume? I mean i can still hear that it has some kind accent like it want meant to do fast legato mostly but it worked ok in your demo. I got to say the normal legato is what is holding me back. Smooth leg. violins is a must. Thanks.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> My i ask what you did to smooth out the legato violins in MSS? Was it the use off CCs in the midi editor or di you raise the transition volume? I mean i can still hear that it has some kind accent like it want meant to do fast legato mostly but it worked ok in your demo. I got to say the normal legato is what is holding me back. Smooth leg. violins is a must. Thanks.


Lots of variation (those sliders come in handy) and paying attention to CC1 because sometimes moving it around too much during legato seemed to introduce those accents you are talking about. A few times I just basically dipped it a touch during problematic legatos. Oh also I lowered the transition volume for the violins by about 2db.

Will see if spending more time manually adjusting legato speed parameters fixes some of these things


----------



## lettucehat

Really nice comparison! It's funny, CSS is so ubiquitous I just assumed it was in there. #1 was my favorite (no surprise as an owner), but it's clear that out-of-the-box dry/close mics can still vary widely. #1 is lush and wide for being close mics, while #4 is pretty brutally panned and each section is narrow, probably affecting reactions. I think MSS holds up pretty nicely and look forward to hearing more.


----------



## dzilizzi

BasariStudios said:


> Ok, i own HollyWood Strings Diamond, Synchron Strings Pro and BBC SO PRO
> as full Strings Libraries but then i own VSL Appasionatta Standard, VSL Ochestra
> Standard, VSL Smart Orchestra XP, Jaeger, Spitfire Originals, Epic and Intimate Strings,
> Spitfire Abbey Road One, Orchestral Tools MA 1 High and Low Strings and few others.
> By my list on top it looks like only 3 of them are Full Blown Strings Libraries.
> Is that a lot? Do i need MSS? I am just trying to justify or unjustify, please help?
> It looks like a lot but i do not really own any awesome Library except Synchron Strings Pro.


Yes, you need at least 2 more string libraries to be a proper VI-Control member. 

But seriously, do you need it? No. Will it be useful? Probably.


----------



## BasariStudios

dzilizzi said:


> Yes, you need at least 2 more string libraries to be a proper VI-Control member.
> 
> But seriously, do you need it? No. Will it be useful? Probably.


Ok, so 2 more. ok.


----------



## blender505

SHANE TURNER said:


> Lots of variation (those sliders come in handy) and paying attention to CC1 because sometimes moving it around too much during legato seemed to introduce those accents you are talking about. A few times I just basically dipped it a touch during problematic legatos. Oh also I lowered the transition volume for the violins by about 2db.
> 
> Will see if spending more time manually adjusting legato speed parameters fixes some of these things


Do the different attacks (the accent, normal, and crescendo) affect the smoothness of the transition? I've been noticing a lot of these accents as well.


----------



## dzilizzi

BasariStudios said:


> Are you f-ing serous? WTF is my PC trying to tell me?
> I just saw this now and MSS Full is 190GB. What?


You can pretty much fill your SSD without a problem. I would DL it to an external drive because the DL may need a bit more room to unpack. Otherwise you are fine.


----------



## Tinesaeriel

Duncan Krummel said:


> Good point! I've added them back to the dropbox folder. Again, this is here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly these also have Spaces II on them, but I believe it's the Berlin Church. Well, one of those anyways.


Mmmmmm.... Okay, 

After listening to all the user demos now of exposed, naked demos of legato lines, especially yours, and _especially _in comparison to CSS...

I'm having 2nd thoughts. That legato really doesn't sound as up-to-snuff as I was hoping. I don't know what some of those demo-makers did to make their strings sound so much better, but listening to these exposed legato lines is giving me many doubts. 

It's such a shame, too, because I really loved the Aleatoric and runs stuff in the library. 

I'll wait a little while longer to see what more people can do with the library, but I definitely am not so sure about diving in on this one now.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

blender505 said:


> Do the different attacks (the accent, normal, and crescendo) affect the smoothness of the transition? I've been noticing a lot of these accents as well.


As far as i know the attacks only relate to the sustain.

edited: not so sure after watching Shane's video. But the legato video clearly talks about sustains.


----------



## Russell Anderson

lettucehat said:


> Really nice comparison! It's funny, CSS is so ubiquitous I just assumed it was in there. #1 was my favorite (no surprise as an owner), but it's clear that out-of-the-box dry/close mics can still vary widely. #1 is lush and wide for being close mics, while #4 is pretty brutally panned and each section is narrow, probably affecting reactions. I think MSS holds up pretty nicely and look forward to hearing more.



I made the same assumption! Without even questioning it, until the end when I checked. 

Agreed, #4 is brutally panned. #1’s panning of the close mics is extremely flattering... I find myself very happy with their string libraries generally speaking. Between ARone and SCS I hardly need anything else besides some thick legato glue and extended techniques; MSS clearly seems to provide the latter in spades and the former is something I'm keenly observing. 

CSS, MSS, PSamples and, depending on extended content of the former purchase, maybe an OT (or 8Dio?) extended technique library -- all are contenders for what should be my last string library for years. Right? Yes. Yes... except maybe Orchestral Swarm _at some point_, unless I can satisfactorily granulize something similar. 

Sorry to take it offtopic for a moment. Looking forward to hearing more MSS. I'm surprised that the more I listen to it, the more I tend to like it - listening to string libraries in back-to-back comparisons tends to emphasize their characteristics in such a way that often, none of them sound truly amazing until your ear adapts to their character. But I'm not sure if I'm entirely unbiased; I do _want_ to like MSS, so I may be being more generous than perhaps I should be for the sake of my wallet, which right now, is somewhere up there, watching down over all of us. I'll never forget you, wallet.



Tinesaeriel said:


> After listening to all the user demos now of exposed, naked demos of legato lines, especially yours, and _especially _in comparison to CSS...



Not to insert more doubt into your doubt; skepticism is healthy. But the samples provided were reportedly programmed specifically for CSS after having been programmed specifically for other libraries, and that example was mostly a copypaste of midi and thus very unflattering almost by default, according to the poster in a recent mention. Given all of these examples posted thus far are only the first few haphazardly hurled into cyberspace, it's' not unreasonable to assume some others are taking some time to get to know it first and comb out a perhaps very impressive example of what MSS is actually capable of. I don't really believe anyone is actually making full use of the numerous parameters yet, until I start seeing MP4s/videos of the interface and them working through the software and seeing firsthand how it tends to behave and whether certain kinds of musicality can be pulled out of it or if it has a definite slant.

That you were wondering how the writers of their demos were able to get their strings sounding so good is reason enough to hold out on ignoring any further developments on MSS (though I don't suppose you would); looking at the parameters, and hearing some of those audio demos, I think we have yet to hear a piece that's had its programming snugly fit to MSS' capabilities/tendencies besides perhaps our favorite audio demos off of their website. 

There's a month to go before the introductory sale ends, and then also 8 months to go until it likely goes on sale for Black Friday. Plenty of time for people to keep getting their hands dirty, so you don't have to jump the gun and do anything you regret. I have to say it's not my favorite of the market's offerings either at the moment given everything I've heard, but I don't know if I really get it fully yet (and I do really like some of those official demo pieces). And the feature set is incredibly flexible, meaning I _may_ be able to do more with it despite preferring the sonic characteristics of others in hard-A/B examples (again, only those we've heard _so far_, in a library with a ton of parameters and some great standalone audio demos). Context is king. But of course, we'll see, and we have time to.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Russell Anderson said:


> For Shane: would you be willing to upload a quick MP4 demonstrating the automations you used for the legato controls on the MSS example? Even just an mp4 of the interface itself so we can see each of the knobs moving would be enough for me.


Sure. Well, here's the violin anyway. The 5 lanes top to bottom: modwheel dynamics, vibrato, legato type, attack type, and rebow. Could have probably organized the screen better but hey, it's late.. 

-edit-- One thing I should have mentioned earlier and forgot: _This is a CPU beast_. Running 4 legatos like this uses about 25% of my cpu meter in Nuendo. I have an i7 6900k 8-core, a few years old but no slouch. None of the other libraries came close to that.


----------



## turnerofwheels

blender505 said:


> Do the different attacks (the accent, normal, and crescendo) affect the smoothness of the transition? I've been noticing a lot of these accents as well.


I haven't quite figured that out yet, so far it seems more to affect the start of the phrases. Same for the portamento speeds--not hearing a lot of difference. Rebowing really jumps out sometimes.

I'm going to have a proper go through the manual tomorrow I think.


----------



## Lazer42

On the question of "what do people mean by 'synthy'," at least when I see people use it what I take from it is to mean that something sounds like - or at least has a hint or a "taste" of the sound of - older keyboard synthesizers, either ROMPLERS or genuine synths.

For example, here is a brief phrase. Part of it is played by MSS, and part of it by a Roland ROMPLER from over 10 years ago. The only processing done was to add a small amount of (low quality) reverb to help put the two sounds in the same room and to normalize the volume.

Can you tell where MSS stops and the rompler begins, or vice versa? I think most people on this board probably can, but that the sound is nevertheless a lot close than one might expect and that the average person who doesn't spend a lot of time listening to sample libraries probably could not.



Spoiler: What's what



From 0 to about 10 or so seconds and 14 seconds until the end is a Roland RD700GX. In between is MSS.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

I definitely don’t want to lead people astray with the demo I posted before. I’ll try my best to create a demo specifically for MSS, work schedule willing.

I’d like to share my early impressions, in any case.

• The legato transitions need some prior setting up to be most effective. Consider it a matter of personal taste, for which MSS gives you more control than any library I’ve seen yet (with one exception: MSB).

• Each patch has unique default settings. This frustrates me a bit, since now I need to re-save each patch with a true default. Flip side of this is that I tend to do this anyways once I’ve set up each patch to perform how I’d like it to by default. Still, the basses were the only group to have the mix mic AND the close mic engaged by default after installation, and some patches had EQs where others had none. This, more than anything, makes me doubt that returning all patches to a true default is going to result in a homogenous sound. Time will tell, so for now it’s c’est la vie.

• As I mentioned before, the default legatos are VERY nimble. Neither CSS nor HWS can perform fast legatos this well without changing to a patch specifically designed for runs, and maybe not even then. I’m very pleased with how effective this is. Recorded runs are an unnecessary, but appreciated, bonus at this point.

• No harmonic legatos. Pity. Harmonics are part of the standard repertoire, and I’m always disappointed when developers ignore recording legato transitions for them. On the plus side, they sound divine.

• The trills, trems, and aleatoric effects are some of the most organic, vivid sounding recordings of these articulations I’ve heard in a library. The ostinatos are worth the price of entry alone, in my opinion.

• The balance out of the box is a bit bass heavy. I’m not sure if AudioBro kept the volume levels accurate, and in any case this is not too much of an issue if you’re writing FOR the library. It’s worth pointing out, however.

• Finally, while I do not own LASS, I do know it’s raw sound has often been both praised and critiqued. MSS is certainly a raw library compared to most current releases. The biggest hurdle to cross with this, IMO, is finding a reverb that it’ll take to well. I’m convinced this will be pretty simple once I figure it out, but it’s a hurdle nonetheless.

All in all, I’m very pleased with MSS. I bought it to fill some specific niches regarding bow styles and articulations, so I’m less concerned about the default legato and short articulations. Ymmv, and all that.


----------



## dzilizzi

BasariStudios said:


> Ok, so 2 more. ok.


At least.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Lazer42 said:


> On the question of "what do people mean by 'synthy'," at least when I see people use it what I take from it is to mean that something sounds like - or at least has a hint or a "taste" of the sound of - older keyboard synthesizers, either ROMPLERS or genuine synths.
> 
> For example, here is a brief phrase. Part of it is played by MSS, and part of it by a Roland ROMPLER from over 10 years ago. The only processing done was to add a small amount of (low quality) reverb to help put the two sounds in the same room and to normalize the volume.
> 
> Can you tell where MSS stops and the rompler begins, or vice versa? I think most people on this board probably can, but that the sound is nevertheless a lot close than one might expect and that the average person who doesn't spend a lot of time listening to sample libraries probably could not.


MSS is in the middle. More or less the middle i mean.


----------



## Russell Anderson

SHANE TURNER said:


> Sure. Well, here's the violin anyway. The 5 lanes top to bottom: modwheel dynamics, vibrato, legato type, attack type, and rebow. Could have probably organized the screen better but hey, it's late..


Thanks, that's super helpful, even just the violins at that screen arrangement haha. I wonder how it would sound with revisited dynamics automation later on and automation of the legato transition volume, which at times (to my ear) seemed a little loud. But I'm not exactly sure how it impacts the flow of the line when turned down, it might not influence it in the way that I have in my head (the way I'm hoping). I'm also curious about the legato speed automation, as it was set to auto in your example. 

I'm not sure how. _exactly_, any of these parameters affect the sound. I think videos showing the interface alongside the audio examples are going to be really important for this library, considering the way that the parameters work seems to, I'm hoping, be a very important part of the ways in which the library can be expressive.

Thank you again. Really helpful video. Looking forward to more examples, from you or anyone - and thanks for putting many of those parameters to use.


----------



## davidanthony

Lazer42 said:


> For example, here is a brief phrase. Part of it is played by MSS, and part of it by a Roland ROMPLER from over 10 years ago



Rompler kicks in around :5 and then MSS comes back around :14?

Kind of hoping I'm wrong because that means I can't tell the difference and you just saved me $500!


----------



## Russell Anderson

Duncan Krummel said:


> The balance out of the box is a bit bass heavy.


Thanks for noting that - I've been hearing the same thing as well. I wonder if it's turned up to compensate for phase cancellation of the bass resulting from certain mic combinations/reverb? (which would be a tragic solution)

But it is notable that the soundcloud demo posted earlier seems like it could have been cleaned up mightily if the panning of the close mics were changed and the balance with the bass was also adjusted.



Duncan Krummel said:


> • No harmonic legatos. Pity. Harmonics are part of the standard repertoire, and I’m always disappointed when developers ignore recording legato transitions for them. On the plus side, they sound divine.
> 
> • The trills, trems, and aleatoric effects are some of the most organic, vivid sounding recordings of these articulations I’ve heard in a library. The ostinatos are worth the price of entry alone, in my opinion.



Agreed and agreed. Perhaps the harmonics legatos could be released later as an update to the library a la Spitfire Cimbasso + Legato update released recently for BBCSO. But the aleatoric, detune, and more and more the ostenato patches are really impressing me. I'm not in your boat of having most bases covered, so the bread and butter of the library matters a lot for me. Income permitting however, I may end up buying MSS within the next year or two regardless as some of the aforementioned techniques sound _really_ good. I just don't have $550 to drop on those patches alone right now; far, far from it.... really far...


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Lazer42 said:


> On the question of "what do people mean by 'synthy'," at least when I see people use it what I take from it is to mean that something sounds like - or at least has a hint or a "taste" of the sound of - older keyboard synthesizers, either ROMPLERS or genuine synths.
> 
> For example, here is a brief phrase. Part of it is played by MSS, and part of it by a Roland ROMPLER from over 10 years ago. The only processing done was to add a small amount of (low quality) reverb to help put the two sounds in the same room and to normalize the volume.
> 
> Can you tell where MSS stops and the rompler begins, or vice versa? I think most people on this board probably can, but that the sound is nevertheless a lot close than one might expect and that the average person who doesn't spend a lot of time listening to sample libraries probably could not.


But is it a fair test? That MMS legato is not that far from the sustain patch from Roland. And put that against string library with expression like PS or CSS and i think people will notice. Just saiyng. But the fact reminds that this Roland library is still pretty good.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Lazer42 said:


> On the question of "what do people mean by 'synthy'," at least when I see people use it what I take from it is to mean that something sounds like - or at least has a hint or a "taste" of the sound of - older keyboard synthesizers, either ROMPLERS or genuine synths.
> 
> For example, here is a brief phrase. Part of it is played by MSS, and part of it by a Roland ROMPLER from over 10 years ago. The only processing done was to add a small amount of (low quality) reverb to help put the two sounds in the same room and to normalize the volume.
> 
> Can you tell where MSS stops and the rompler begins, or vice versa? I think most people on this board probably can, but that the sound is nevertheless a lot close than one might expect and that the average person who doesn't spend a lot of time listening to sample libraries probably could not.


That’s fair. But wouldn’t that test hold with any string library vs the Roland? I’m sure we could also use a Mellotron and beat most libraries in term of realism as well.


----------



## Lazer42

davidanthony said:


> Rompler kicks in around :5 and then MSS comes back around :14?
> 
> Kind of hoping I'm wrong because that means I can't tell the difference and you just saved me $500!


Right on one but not the other.


----------



## turnerofwheels

TBH--with pretty much any string library with a senza vibrato patch, if you hit a few notes with no dynamic changes, plus add on some verb, it will sound like a rompler.

Though in my case I've played back straight up long samples, unaltered, con sordinos and aleatoric sounds and even fellow musicians thought they sounded synthy. Probably because they were unaccustomed to hearing orchestras make sounds like that.


----------



## Lazer42

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> But is it a fair test? That MMS legato is not that far from the sustain patch from Roland. And put that against string library with expression like PS or CSS and i think people will notice. Just saiyng. But the fact reminds that this Roland library is still pretty good.


Well to be clear, I wasn't intending to pass any judgment on the ultimate question of quality here. I am still forming an opinion, for one thing.


----------



## Lazer42

bvaughn0402 said:


> That’s fair. But wouldn’t that test hold with any string library vs the Roland? I’m sure we could also use a Mellotron and beat most libraries in term of realism as well.


I'm not sure. I suspect that if I did this with, say Hollywood Strings, it wouldn't be at all close. FWIW, I don't say that because I am a huge fan of HS or anything. I have actually been primarily using HW for years but am looking to move on, or at least to add something else to the toolbox, because some of it's imperfections are starting to grate on me. Still, I think it would stand out from the Roland much, much more easily, in a good way.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Lazer42 said:


> Right on one but not the other.


So you're saying the first 4 notes were MSS? :-/


----------



## Jish

Duncan Krummel said:


> All in all, I’m very pleased with MSS. I bought it to fill some specific niches regarding bow styles and articulations, so I’m less concerned about the default legato and short articulations. Ymmv, and all that.


From what I've only been able to listen to/gleen in the last five hours or so, I agree with this conclusion- as a broader 'filler' to other libraries it seems like it can be very effective, if not unique- however, if you would have told me at this point that these areas are where it would shine/excel as opposed, to well, _other stuff_, when thy hallowed features page was unveiled, I actually would have sincerely been surprised.

The night is young- more sacrifice of live examples, moderately inputed human midi data is required...


----------



## Lazer42

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> So you're saying the first 4 notes were MSS? :-/


I have added a spoiler tag to the post with the times.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Lazer42 said:


> I have added a spoiler tag to the post with the times.


Thanks.


----------



## Marlon Brown

Duncan Krummel said:


> So I wasn't going to post this at first, but since @FireGS pulled his demos down, I decided to upload these so you can hear the strings more exposed. This was originally made for CSB, and then CSS, and now MSS, so keep this in mind. I didn't muck with the MIDI, but I did muck with the MSS settings to make the responsiveness closer to CSS.
> 
> There are files without verb, and with external verb. There are also files for the standard legato, con sort legato, sul tasto legato, and sul ponticello legato.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: This is the Mix mic only for all, FYI. The external verb is Spaces II, Davies Violins-Celli FR TS


Beautiful music! CSS sounds much better than MSS in these demos. There's this natural air about CSS that is indescribable.


----------



## Batrawi

DarkestShadow said:


> Does anyone else think the (wonderful) Lullaby For The Planet demo sounds massively like Cinematic Studio Strings?
> 
> Just confusing because I'm very good at spotting libraries and use CSS since years... so it's odd that my ears are so convinced that it's CSS. I don't have the impression when listening to the other demos.


sounds nothing like CSS to me. very different tone, clarity & vibrato.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Duncan Krummel said:


> I’ll try my best to create a demo specifically for MSS, work schedule willing.


Honestly, just a revisitation of the midi of that example you posted would be helpful - especially if you were willing to post it as an MP4 to look at what you're doing with the parameters. 

The dynamics specifically seem out of place. CSS (and CSSS, wow) sounds wonderful with those dynamics but I don't feel from the performance that MSS' dynamic mapping is similar enough for the performance to be at all similar. I'm curious how it would sound with just some time spent on the dynamics alone (and maybe some more time with the other parameters? I'm still very unsure of how/how much they affect the sound, but It's your time, so whatever you feel is doable for you). Thanks for the post.


----------



## chapbot

Just downloaded and am playing around. First impression: Not too thrilled (keep in mind my thoughts here are coming from more of a pop/commercial point of view.)

For me, this is not a library you load up and get goosebumps. It takes work to get it where you want to go (and that's probably why we aren't hearing demos on the next day of release.)

I had kinda expected to load up a patch and be wowed... like maybe this will be a next-gen type thing... you press a key and it sings. I'm not feeling that.

I pulled up a violin patch and was not happy AT ALL with what I heard (yep, synthy.) So I immediately turned off the reverbs (are there really 3 convos on when you load a patch LOL???) and switched to the dry mic. Felt >slightly< better. It sounds like a warmer LASS this way. In fact, I A/Bd it with LASS Vlns A Leg Sus and it sounds very similar (but warmer.)

Oddly, though, you can hear the room tail with the shorts - I don't hear a tail with the legato.

Solo strings are first chairs, I'd never use them by themselves.

The Intuition patch, as I expected, would be more to my liking. I didn't hear much tonal difference, if any, as I A/Bd the Violins 1A Intuition with the normal Violins 1A. Didn't the tutorial video say something like it's got some kind of hybrid thing going on that would sacrifice a little realism for increased playability? I'm not hearing that.

What I DID notice is how much easier it is to play, and how it has more of that "wow" factor I was expecting from the library (not much "wow," but after my initial disappointment I'll take what I can get.) After an hour of playing around and adjusting parameters I just can't get the regular Violins A to sound "right" - something is wonky with the releases/transitions and it just doesn't feel right under my fingers. Can it be that Audiobro has included so many tweakable features that a dummy like me will never be able to program it correctly? I guess the Intuition patches will be my MSS For Dummies 

I'll post again with more observations if I come up with any after I sleep on it and play around with it more. Of course I won't really know if I'll use MSS until I stick it in a track (I've had that happen in the past - don't like a library by itself but love it in a track.) But for now, my advice is to NOT BUY THIS until you hear walkthroughs by other composers.

I would have waited for said walkthroughs myself, but I've looked forward to this library for years and know I would not have been happy until I had tested it personally, even if it means risking $549.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound harsh here, but I feel that if you're going to spend money on something you cannot resell or get a refund for (especially in these uncertain economic times) you had better be sure you know what you're getting.


----------



## Saxer

molemac said:


> Hi Saxer, just wondering if you are following any of this and your initial thoughts on MSS . Always value your opinion hugely.


Thanks for asking... I'm following but I'm in a stringless project right now and try to avoid too much distraction. MSS looks like a very complete solution for a lot of possible applications and workflows. I'm not a fan of the IRs but the dry sound seems to be good. Still missing an intimate and heartwarming romantic demo. As I have much too much string libraries and a Covid related smaller income I'll probably wait until very convincing demos come along.


----------



## jonnybutter

artomatic said:


> Just curious:
> For those of you who already purchased this library, did you buy just the MSS core or did you buy it with MSS Expanded Legato?
> Thanks.


I got both because I already had LASS full and it’s only $150 more for LASS owners if you buy the package. I don’t need it today, but I do a wide variety of music, and it seemed worth doing.


----------



## Vik

To those of you who have posted examples – have you been using the Intuition presets? Based on what I've seen and read so far, these seems to be closer to behaving like Berlin Strings adaptive legato and Spitfire's Performance legatos than the regular MSS presets are... unless I'm mistaken here?


----------



## molemac

Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


----------



## molemac

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


----------



## borisb2

quick update:
started to implement MSS into my template. Oh man, the controls in this library are really insane. No other string library I own comes even close to the amount of control and tweakability with MSS. This is nearly perfect!


----------



## molemac

Saxer said:


> Thanks for asking... I'm following but I'm in a stringless project right now and try to avoid too much distraction. MSS looks like a very complete solution for a lot of possible applications and workflows. I'm not a fan of the IRs but the dry sound seems to be good. Still missing an intimate and heartwarming romantic demo. As I have much too much string libraries and a Covid related smaller income I'll probably wait until very convincing demos come along.


Always wise words , and ditto to all of it thanks


----------



## Zedcars

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


I like elements of all. I like the first half of DSS but then it seems to lose it and sounds a bit uneven. Is DSS Dimension SYNCHRON-ized Strings? I couldn't find it in the abbreviation list.

Overall I think I prefer Berlin, closely followed by CSS. BBCSO isn't bad, but I think that can be improved by removing some of the overlaid staccato sounds using a low velocity, which sound a bit unnatural in places. Surprisingly I was least impressed by SCS.

Thanks for posting these.

I've yet to be wowed by the legatos in MSS, but am still very tempted to buy it for the detuning, aleatoric, ostinatos, scales and level of control it offers. I'm a bit worried about the level of user tweaking involved to get this road worthy, which is a pain. But I'm hoping a few updates might make this easier.


----------



## molemac

Zedcars said:


> I like elements of all. I like the first half of DSS but then it seems to lose it and sounds a bit uneven. Is DSS Dimension SYNCHRON-ized Strings? I couldn't find it in the abbreviation list.
> 
> Overall I think I prefer Berlin, closely followed by CSS. BBCSO isn't bad, but I think that can be improved by removing some of the overlaid staccato sounds using a low velocity, which sound a bit unnatural in places. Surprisingly I was least impressed by SCS.
> 
> Thanks for posting these.
> 
> I've yet to be wowed by the legatos in MSS, but am still very tempted to buy it for the detuning, aleatoric, ostinatos, scales and level of control it offers. I'm a bit worried about the level of user tweaking involved to get this road worthy, which is a pain. But I'm hoping a few updates might make this easier.


Yes DSS is Synchronized dimension strings , thanks for the bbc tip I didn’t realise that the velocity added staccato. BBC was my least favourite because it sounds a bit too distant and unintimate but I only have core so that might be different with pro mikes. Regardless of how good they all sound if you listen to a real recording after this its not even comparable.


----------



## Jorgakis

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


I feel CSS does pretty well for that imo, also the solo version. Sorry for rubato


----------



## Maximvs

Does it make sense for someone who has LASS 2.5 Full to purchase MSS, also knowing that by the end of 2021 a major update for LASS will be released?

Cheers,

Max


----------



## Lassi Tani

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.



View attachment schindler_berlin_layered.mp3


Made a test with Berlin Main and Berlin Exp B, just the violins.


----------



## Raphioli

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


CSS sounds the most musical to me. I wonder how MSS would sound if you use those ostinato repetitions for those repetitive intervals and then use a regular legato patch for the rest of the melody.




Zedcars said:


> I've yet to be wowed by the legatos in MSS, but am still very tempted to buy it for the detuning, aleatoric, ostinatos, scales and level of control it offers.


I think that's its strength. The aleatoric demo and the sound design demo sounds really good.
Which is unfortunate at the same time, since they have a separate expansion just for legatos.
I'm hoping they could tweak it in future updates though. 
Like you, I really like those features you mentioned.


----------



## Eptesicus

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.



I think this perfectly illustrates why CSS gets the praise that it does....

It is so much better/more musical than the others.


----------



## I like music

Does every single strings library thread end up with CSS getting a lot of praise a long the way? I swear, I enter a strings thread, and I leave thinking "I'm glad I bought CSS."

Not saying that its because the library which the thread is about is bad, but its just a handy reminder that CSS ends up sounding good in a lot of contexts (within its limits of course, as people probably post demos of CSS in other string threads when they know they can post something good, so there's probably a bias towards it only being brought up in its strongest context)

Anyhow, MSS actually feels a bit too daunting for me. The aleatoric stuff, detuning etc actually looks really good. But I'm not a pro and don't _need_ more expensive libraries, so will probably pass.


----------



## molemac

sekkosiki said:


> View attachment schindler_berlin_layered.mp3
> 
> 
> Made a test with Berlin Main and Berlin Exp B, just the violins.


Sounds good , what’s Berlin Main and Exp B ?


----------



## molemac

Eptesicus said:


> I think this perfectly illustrates why CSS gets the praise that it does....
> 
> It is so much better/more musical than the others.


I expected that but the idea is for someone to see if they can surpass it with MSS , with all the tools at its disposal including as Raphioli said using the ostinato combined with legato and Rebow etc...


----------



## Lassi Tani

molemac said:


> Sounds good , what’s Berlin Main and Exp B ?


Thanks a lot. Berlin Strings Main (I used Violin 1 legato), and Berlin Strings Special Bows 1 (I used the violin 1 sul tasto patch).


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


here is a first MSS attempt. Took your LASS track, massaged the dynamic and added rebow automation.. not very happy with the dynamics so far .. it's work


----------



## JohannesR

I like music said:


> Does every single strings library thread end up with CSS getting a lot of praise a long the way?


It doesn't make any sense at all to me! These are all tools, and every library brings something new to the table. Why compare? CSS is great, but I don't need that "colour" - I already have it!

What should be the focus (at least in my humble opinion) is what MSS brings to the table, and the answer is A WHOLE LOT!! Try to make a two note ostinato with CSS. Try to do aleatoric.

These are all tools. The question should be; can I benefit from buying this? To me the answer is a loud and clear yes. The ostinato articulation is worth the price of the library alone.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> here is a first MSS attempt. Took your LASS track, massaged the dynamic and added rebow automation.. not very happy with the dynamics so far .. it's work


Yikes , havent listened properly , on the iPad and watching Nadal but 1st impressions are not good. Tone and legato Sounds the most unreal so far , did you try using the ostinato ?


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> Yikes , havent listened properly , on the iPad and watching Nadal but 1st impressions are not good. Tone and legato Sounds the most unreal so far , did you try using the ostinato ?


no, as said, not happy yet .. didnt try ostinato yet. Wanted to do first attempt only with CC and rebow .. need to massage further


----------



## Russell Anderson

I second (third?) the request for ostenato for the John Williams piece. It seems like it could be an opportunity for it - though it is also possible for ostenato passages to be lyrical and, well then it's also time to be curious about how lyrical MSS' ostenatos can sound. But, I agree it's important to hear the legato on its own. 

I am not an experienced programmer of orchestral midi but I'm wondering - is it normal to intersperse sustains and legato to achieve detache and legato? I've been trying to follow along a few pieces (namely the 'main' Vista audio demo) with SCS and I've found it a pretty demanding task, as the legato in SCS certainly has its own idea of how to do things lol

all part of saying, that may be something to worry about in trying to accomplish realism, although I think it's probably more convenient and hopefully more common to just throw everything into a legato patch and have it sort out its own sustains and legatos depending on how the midi is input. I know that wouldn't work with poly legato as the MSS video mentions how anything less than a 40ms gap between midi inputs results in polylegato, so you'd need to not be using polylegato for that kind of writing more than likely which makes working with the divisis somewhat more cumbersome (though probably just another Wednesday for some users here)


----------



## Casiquire

Tinesaeriel said:


> Mmmmmm.... Okay,
> 
> After listening to all the user demos now of exposed, naked demos of legato lines, especially yours, and _especially _in comparison to CSS...
> 
> I'm having 2nd thoughts. That legato really doesn't sound as up-to-snuff as I was hoping. I don't know what some of those demo-makers did to make their strings sound so much better, but listening to these exposed legato lines is giving me many doubts.
> 
> It's such a shame, too, because I really loved the Aleatoric and runs stuff in the library.
> 
> I'll wait a little while longer to see what more people can do with the library, but I definitely am not so sure about diving in on this one now.


Well one thing the demo makers did different was...spend some time getting to know the library 😁


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> Well one thing the demo makers did different was...spend some time getting to know the library 😁


no time for that .. too busy  ..
jokes aside, I think I spent enough time to get a feeling of the legato controls

layered the Solo Violin on top - helps a bit, but not enough (so far):


----------



## Trevor Meier

borisb2 said:


> no time for that .. too busy  ..
> jokes aside, I think I spent enough time to get a feeling of the legato controls
> 
> layered the Solo Violin on top - helps a bit, but not enough (so far):


That sounds better to my ears too.

Could you try a version with just a single divisi? I’m curious if a smaller section size will help with realism.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> no time for that .. too busy  ..
> jokes aside, I think I spent enough time to get a feeling of the legato controls
> 
> layered the Solo Violin on top - helps a bit, but not enough (so far):


Getting better , but still a long way , is there a reason why the second note of each of each phrase seems to die off rather than sustain into the next one. It should almost be a 4 note legato bow each phrase . Maybe try increasing the legato transition knob ?


----------



## borisb2

Trevor Meier said:


> That sounds better to my ears too.
> 
> Could you try a version with just a single divisi? I’m curious if a smaller section size will help with realism.


Will do tomorrow (late here in NZ). So far I took molemacs track (LASS-version) and spent about 1 hour massaging the CCs - with mixed results. I mixed the A section of violins1 100% and lowered thr B-section already about 50% to make the sound a bit thinner.
Tomorrow I can try playing in the parts completely new, but I doubt this will sound drastically different.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> Will do tomorrow (late here in NZ). So far I took molemacs track (LASS-version) and spent about 1 hour massaging the CCs - with mixed results. I mixed the A section of violins1 100% and lowered thr B-section already about 50% to make the sound a bit thinner.
> Tomorrow I can try playing in the parts completely new, but I doubt this will sound drastically different.


Go to bed , I should too but tennis keeping me up . Lockdown over tomorrow yay.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Sadly, I am still not decided with what I am hearing. 
Sebastian, please take this in a constructive manner but I think you should revisit you demos policy, I think that we need more simple demos, to show how the library can handle simple melodies, not drowned in reverb.

You are leaving that task to users that, even though they are well intentioned, have used the library for a couple of hours. I think something similar may have happened with MSB?


----------



## Supremo

Judging from the demos posted here thus far I would say MSS legato sounds bad. Like real bad.
I was seriously considering buying this library and was really excited with its ostinato features and stuff, but my ears are bleeding when I hear those sloppy note transitions (can't name them 'legato' as I don't hear any) combined with a lifeless tone of MSS. 
Disappointing...


----------



## Eptesicus

borisb2 said:


> no time for that .. too busy  ..
> jokes aside, I think I spent enough time to get a feeling of the legato controls
> 
> layered the Solo Violin on top - helps a bit, but not enough (so far):



Not too bad. Still sounds "dead" to me compared to the CSS example. The CSS example actually sounds like the notes flow in and out of each other. This sounds very distinctly like separate notes stitched together.

It is a really hard phenomenon to put into words, but musicality comes from how a musical passage ebbs and flows and in the MSS (and others) example, you can hear a "stop/start" effect. The CSS example, whilst obviously not as good as a live recording, manages to connect the notes together in a much more natural and musical way.

I just wish more sample developers would explore and expand on what makes CSS so realistic instead of churning out libraries that, whilst good, still dont make any further strives towards realism and musicality.

MSS is a good library and stands up there with some other very good libraries. From a content to price ration perspective it is amazing. However it is disappointing that it hasn't moved things forward in other areas.


----------



## Raphioli

Eptesicus said:


> This sounds very distinctly like separate notes stitched together.


This is what my impressions were as well.

Maybe it needs more MIDI massaging or tweaking of the legato speed/length knob.
Or maybe it just isn't doable and legato isn't the strength of the library, but the aleatoric, sound design, ostinato, scale runs, etc are.
I can't tell because I don't own it.

I really wish it had a demo legato patch to see if its possible to tweak the hell out of those parameters to make the legato lines flow musically. (especially since its nonrefundable.)
Then I could just test it out myself, come to a conclusion and move on.


----------



## molemac

Eptesicus said:


> Not too bad. Still sounds "dead" to me compared to the CSS example. The CSS example actually sounds like the notes flow in and out of each other. This sounds very distinctly like separate notes stitched together.
> 
> It is a really hard phenomenon to put into words, but musicality comes from how a musical passage ebbs and flows and in the MSS (and others) example, you can hear a "stop/start" effect. The CSS example, whilst obviously not as good as a live recording, manages to connect the notes together in a much more natural and musical way.
> 
> I just wish more sample developers would explore and expand on what makes CSS so realistic instead of churning out libraries that, whilst good, still dont make any further strives towards realism and musicality.
> 
> MSS is a good library and stands up there with some other very good libraries. From a content to price ration perspective it is amazing. However it is disappointing that it hasn't moved things forward in other areas.


I am tending to agree . I think we can all say Mss is an amazing library and value for money especially as Lass owners but it’s strengths are in the areas that it has innovated on. The slightly disappointing thing is that it had the potential to be the holy grail of libraries but the lack of good legato and the general tone do not make it a replace all. With all their amazing technical ideas and implementations it is a shame the source material/ string sound is a little disappointing. I will probably still buy it though for all that it can do and hope that I may be proved wrong. Looking forward to hearing some more demos.


----------



## Evans

Yes, I'm bringing CSS into this thread again. What I would love to hear is how to best mimic these factors with MSS's highly capable controls. I know MSB to be highly flexible, even when some of the base recordings are a bit off.

Quote starts at 1m15s.


----------



## Willowtree

molemac said:


> I am tending to agree . I think we can all say Mss is an amazing library and value for money especially as Lass owners but it’s strengths are in the areas that it has innovated on. The slightly disappointing thing is that it had the potential to be the holy grail of libraries but the lack of good legato and the general tone do not make it a replace all. With all their amazing technical ideas and implementations it is a shame the source material/ string sound is a little disappointing. I will probably still buy it though for all that it can do and hope that I may be proved wrong. Looking forward to hearing some more demos.


I can't say it's amazing, it sounds mediocre to me at best.

If others disagree, that's fine, there's no accounting for taste.


----------



## Vik

I'm considering the legato expansion. Does the legato library also have the Intuition presets, anyone? And: which presets allow vibrato crossfade? What I miss in some of the examples is a more 'soaring'/espessivo playing style, and wonder if that can be added to the legato/sustain/Intuition-presets by increasing the vibrato level.


----------



## Lazer42

borisb2 said:


> here is a first MSS attempt. Took your LASS track, massaged the dynamic and added rebow automation.. not very happy with the dynamics so far .. it's work


I wouldn't say it beats the CSS version, but I would say that it's better to my ears than the vast majority of other MSS stuff that has been presented so far.


----------



## richhickey

These Schindler's theme demos highlight the dangers of audible "expressive legato". The worst of them, and there are several truly bad ones, are a rollercoaster ride, as if played on a Minimoog with the glide turned up. Even a HS band director would be telling the students to sober up if they played like that.

So, be careful what you wish for, and if you are given an expressive legato option (along with "normal" legato), be careful how often you use it. 'Almost never' seems about right.


----------



## Lazer42

borisb2 said:


> no time for that .. too busy  ..
> jokes aside, I think I spent enough time to get a feeling of the legato controls
> 
> layered the Solo Violin on top - helps a bit, but not enough (so far):


This result reminds me a bit of Hollywood Strings, for what it's worth.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Raphioli said:


> I really wish it had a demo legato patch to see if its possible to tweak the hell out of those parameters to make the legato lines flow musically. (especially since its nonrefundable.)
> Then I could just test it out myself, come to a conclusion and move on.


This, for every developer, for every premiere library. You just can't _know_ until you actually use the things more often than not. 

Will be curious to hear if the workflow involves a lot of using the ostenatos + Intuition patches and just generally works differently than other libraries in this regard, or if the legato just takes a _lot_ of massaging. It may just end up not being used as often? The rest of the library seems to cover quite a lot of ground, and the intuition patches seem to rival Performance Legato/Legato Perf. (and probably surpass in terms of intonation :D) in terms of dexterity. With that and the ostenatos, and the runs, you know, we could just be going about a lot of this A/B testing wrong, but... I'm really curious how and if the legato can be (consistently) brought to the level of quality I'm expecting after hearing the official demos.

It took me like 10 hours to get a comfortable feel for working with SCS, and I still have more to learn, so, take your time, folks.


----------



## FireGS

Not legatos, but shorts only. Figured I'd start somewhere a bit simpler.

Full mix:

View attachment Ocean_MSS_Fullmix.mp3


MSS only:

View attachment Ocean_MSS_Only.mp3


----------



## Casiquire

borisb2 said:


> here is a first MSS attempt. Took your LASS track, massaged the dynamic and added rebow automation.. not very happy with the dynamics so far .. it's work


I think it sounds fine, but the dynamic feels way too loud. Both how loud they're mixed and the dynamic layer being used


----------



## FireGS

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


OK, I'll be that guy.

Why are we trying to get a sampled section to play and sound like Itzhak Perlman? This is a really impossible bar to set. There's a difference between a soloist, and a section, and samples. Not all section players are at the virtuosity level of a soloist. Like...


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> I think it sounds fine, but the dynamic feels way too loud. Both how loud they're mixed *and the dynamic layer being used*


I'm hearing that in a lot of what's being posted.


----------



## Russell Anderson

richhickey said:


> The worst of them, and there are several truly bad ones, are a rollercoaster ride, as if played on a Minimoog with the glide turned up. Even a HS band director would be telling the students to sober up if they played like that.


You're coming dangerously close to describing my experience trying to copy a Vista audio demo in SCS today. Lots of midi-forcing was done in order to get some of those legato transitions in tune... I wish I could say it wasn't a common circumstance. At least it's for the most part possible to get around. But sheesh.


Vik said:


> What I miss in some of the examples is a more 'soaring'/espessivo playing style,


From what I gather, that's not what the library is for. It's for a lot of other things, though. You may want to turn to Vista/CSS for "soaring/espressivo" style. Or wait for Voyage. MSS seems to be more about wamrth, ostenatos and runs, aleatoric patches/really good detune and dextrous Intuition legato patches, with some cool shorts to boot. If it could handle 'soaring espressivo' it'd be... well, on another level. We have yet to see if that's possible - come on MSS users! Dig in deep!


----------



## william81723

I have to say....after working with MSS in hours.The legato really makes me regret buying it....
Really sticky between each notes.
The previous notes' release time are too long and then make the transtitions blurry..OMG
My money's gone.......


----------



## Zedcars

william81723 said:


> I have to say....after working with MSS in hours.The legato really makes me regret buying it....
> Really sticky between each notes.
> The previous notes' release time are too long and then make the transtitions blurry..OMG
> My money's gone.......


Not really, there's a ton of other stuff within the library.


----------



## Evans

FireGS said:


> Not legatos, but shorts only. Figured I'd start somewhere a bit simpler.
> 
> Full mix:
> 
> View attachment Ocean_MSS_Fullmix.mp3
> 
> 
> MSS only:
> 
> View attachment Ocean_MSS_Only.mp3


Okay, I'm curious, what other libraries were used here?


----------



## FireGS

Evans said:


> Okay, I'm curious, what other libraries were used here?


Bits and bobs <3


----------



## Batrawi

Evans said:


> Okay, I'm curious, what other libraries were used here?


The brass is obviously Infinite Brass


----------



## Evans

The snares seem nice and delicate.


----------



## Russell Anderson

william81723 said:


> I have to say....after working with MSS in hours.The legato really makes me regret buying it....
> Really sticky between each notes.
> The previous notes' release time are too long and then make the transtitions blurry..OMG
> My money's gone.......


Try the Intuition patches. It honestly seems to be a better legato. Also, wherever you can make use of ostenato and runs, try that. There’s a lot under the hood of that library.

I think you’re feeling how I was feeling using SCS for the first few hours. Plenty of issues there, too, like tuning and transition speed irregularities, dynamics swells. Would I trade it all for Voyage?

Well... ...well, yeah. But it’s not even out yet, and these are all different libraries. There is a whole lot you’re probably not looking at yet. Try stepping away from the legato for a bit and finding things in the library you DO like. First thing I’d probably be loading up is Aleatoric or playing with the detune, but that’s because I love that stuff. CSS can’t do any of that. But if you want CSS’ style of legato and don’t have it yet, buy it later! Or get Vista or save for Voyage. And try Intuition first, of course, seriously.

Post some of what you’re working on, or even what you’re not liking. Take a screencapture of what you’re working on and describe what you’re running into that you’re having trouble getting past. If it comes down to it, send a message to Audiobro talking about your concerns. BSS got an update, and if enough people really can’t find *any* way to get done what they’re trying to do, you may even be surprised by an update, too. But between the ostenatos, runs and Intuition I’m not ready by day 2 to give up hope that the library can be very expressive. If you do post, I hope you’ll include some of the Intuition patch in addition to legato work. Intuition may just be the better engine entirely, and it only makes sense from a tech standpoint. As time moves on, I don’t think sampling is going to get much better, but hybrid/modeled instruments are. CSS did something great with their scripting and recording, and Performance Samples seems to be doing the rest of what sampling/scripting alone can do. After that, I really think modelled instruments are an inevitable future (besides live obviously - or... well.... how far into the future are we talking here)


----------



## Batrawi

william81723 said:


> The previous notes' release time are too long and then make the transtitions blurry..


I don't have the library (yet) but I see a Custom Envelope knob beside the other legato control knobs... would that allow shortening the curve of the previous note's release? if not maybe it allows increasing the fade-in time of the legato transition itself


----------



## yellow_lupine

Thanks you all for your testing with MSS.
How would you compare that to LASS in terms of legato?


----------



## dxmachina

Hi guys... I haven't gone through all the examples here, but read a few posts and wanted to bring something up in case it hasn't been mentioned. For anyone just getting started with MSS legato, I want to make doubly sure you understand that the main patches load with poly legato turned on, which requires a different play style from a traditional legato patch. 

If you want to get to traditional mono legato with note overlaps hit the Ensemble page and turn "Auto Divisi" off. The split divisi do load in mono/overlap mode by default however.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Vik said:


> To those of you who have posted examples – have you been using the Intuition presets? Based on what I've seen and read so far, these seems to be closer to behaving like Berlin Strings adaptive legato and Spitfire's Performance legatos than the regular MSS presets are... unless I'm mistaken here?


That's kind of the idea but they do more than legato and have some neat shorts features built in. The legato parts I'm still trying to figure out how to operate more smoothly.



william81723 said:


> I have to say....after working with MSS in hours.The legato really makes me regret buying it....
> Really sticky between each notes.
> The previous notes' release time are too long and then make the transtitions blurry..OMG
> My money's gone.......


I do hear you (more regarding the legato expansion that I got). I am going to carefully go through the manual and legato vids again, but there is an argument to be made that it shouldn't take lots of work for it to maybe barely pass. Oh, and to be sure, I did in my own examples turn off auto-divisi to do overlapping legato as mentioned in the instructions. I think I find it more inconsistent when you just try to play it. It will work for one transition but not the next one. So I'm hoping I can figure out the trick for the latter cases.

I don't have LASS but I know the devs have supported it for years so my hope is that they will address some of the legato issues in upcoming patches...

To be fair, the other featuers of this library I am really happy with, they are immediately going into my present projects


----------



## TintoL

Lazer42 said:


> On the question of "what do people mean by 'synthy'," at least when I see people use it what I take from it is to mean that something sounds like - or at least has a hint or a "taste" of the sound of - older keyboard synthesizers, either ROMPLERS or genuine synths.
> 
> For example, here is a brief phrase. Part of it is played by MSS, and part of it by a Roland ROMPLER from over 10 years ago. The only processing done was to add a small amount of (low quality) reverb to help put the two sounds in the same room and to normalize the volume.
> 
> Can you tell where MSS stops and the rompler begins, or vice versa? I think most people on this board probably can, but that the sound is nevertheless a lot close than one might expect and that the average person who doesn't spend a lot of time listening to sample libraries probably could not.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: What's what
> 
> 
> 
> From 0 to about 10 or so seconds and 14 seconds until the end is a Roland RD700GX. In between is MSS.


Well, Honestly the test only proves the opposite. 

If you put the synth and MSS in one line, and you can not tell the difference, then it's clear that it DOES SOUND LIKE A SYNTH.

You will have to add a third line with a different library that is as wet to see if there is a true contrast. Like, what if you put a third line with SSS. That is mega wet, and I think it has decent legatos. Not awesome but decent. If you can tell the difference, then we could also be training our ears. 

Thanks for putting together the test btw.


----------



## richhickey

dxmachina said:


> Hi guys... I haven't gone through all the examples here, but read a few posts and wanted to bring something up in case it hasn't been mentioned. For anyone just getting started with MSS legato, I want to make doubly sure you understand that the main patches load with poly legato turned on, which requires a different play style from a traditional legato patch.
> 
> If you want to get to traditional mono legato with note overlaps hit the Ensemble page and turn "Auto Divisi" off. The split divisi do load in mono/overlap mode by default however.


This is super-important. I don't have MSS yet, but I had a bear of a time with MSB until I figured out what auto-divisi was doing to me. In the end, I don't use the auto-divisi anymore, but am much happier with MSB.


----------



## novaburst

Can any one tell me what wrong with this piece, sounds very good so what's the deal


----------



## Raphioli

SHANE TURNER said:


> I don't have LASS but I know the devs have supported it for years so my hope is that they will address some of the legato issues in upcoming patches...


This is my hopes as well. Some other developers have improved their legato via updates.
So if that's the case, I hope Audiobro does the same.


Or maybe doing what dxmachina says, and disabling auto divisi would make the legatos musical. 
I'd appreciate if someone could test this out if it improves the legato.


dxmachina said:


> If you want to get to traditional mono legato with note overlaps hit the Ensemble page and turn "Auto Divisi" off. The split divisi do load in mono/overlap mode by default however.


----------



## constaneum

dxmachina said:


> Hi guys... I haven't gone through all the examples here, but read a few posts and wanted to bring something up in case it hasn't been mentioned. For anyone just getting started with MSS legato, I want to make doubly sure you understand that the main patches load with poly legato turned on, which requires a different play style from a traditional legato patch.
> 
> If you want to get to traditional mono legato with note overlaps hit the Ensemble page and turn "Auto Divisi" off. The split divisi do load in mono/overlap mode by default however.


As MSS is quite a massive library with lots of tweakable parameters, I think more videos will need to explain so that customers won't end up bashing the products coz they might not know/ understand the way the library works. A suggestion. Consider having more in depth videos so that customers will understand the products better.😉


----------



## FireGS

novaburst said:


> Can any one tell me what wrong with this piece, sounds very good so what's the deal



Nothing, but theres a LOT less legato going on in here than people think.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Raphioli said:


> This is my hopes as well. Some other developers have improved their legato via updates.
> So if that's the case, I hope Audiobro does the same.
> 
> 
> Or maybe doing what dxmachina says, and disabling auto divisi would make the legatos musical.
> I'd appreciate if someone could test this out if it improves the legato.


My examples were with auto divisi disabled (it's a valid question to ask of course--but I did put a lot of time into trying to follow the instructions provided!)


----------



## Russell Anderson

constaneum said:


> As MSS is quite a massive library with lots of tweakable parameters, I think more videos will need to explain so that customers won't end up bashing the products coz they might not know/ understand the way the library works. A suggestion. Consider having more in depth videos so that customers will understand the products better.😉


Well, the part about the autosivisi was mentioned in the video, but perhaps it should have been at the front... attention spans have been a tragic casualty of our time. But I personally wouldn’t mind a few videos in the style of other developers - less techy, more “in-action”; or in fact more techy even, going over every parameter with multiple examples in excrutiating hour-long videos complete with timestamps.

The former would probably be more informative for most, though. For all else, manual/video manual.


----------



## Zedcars

I also love the Chosen One demo by Nathan Furst. You can hear the strings only demo on AB's website and they really do sound lovely to me.


----------



## novaburst

FireGS said:


> Nothing, but theres a LOT less legato going on in here than people think.


But the strings sound very expressive and enhance the piece, so I am not sure why the bad vibes with the legatos


----------



## FireGS

novaburst said:


> But the strings sound very expressive and enhance the piece, so I am not sure why the bad vibes with the legatos


Because I still don't think half the people here know what "legato" even means, or what sampled legato is attempting to provide. I wish some big name developer, or big time writer would come in here and tell people how legato is actually used. I keep feeling like I'm taking crazy pills.


----------



## Casiquire

novaburst said:


> Can any one tell me what wrong with this piece, sounds very good so what's the deal



Nothing's wrong with it. It sounds great.


----------



## turnerofwheels

novaburst said:


> But the strings sound very expressive and enhance the piece, so I am not sure why the bad vibes with the legatos


Oh, I have no issues with the longs. Especially the sul tasto, ponts and sordinos. They're fabulous. Lots of dynamic range and great for doing swells.

But legatos are a different beast. If something is off or the person doesn't know what they are doing, the lushest passage becomes instant Mario 64.


----------



## Evans

Russell Anderson said:


> Well, the part about the autosivisi was mentioned in the video, but perhaps it should have been at the front. But I personally wouldn’t mind a few videos in the style of other developers - less techy, more “in-action”; or in fact more techy even, going over every parameter with multiple examples in excrutiating hour-long videos complete with timestamps.
> 
> The former would probably be more informative for most, though. For all else, manual/video manual.


Yes. Walkthrough/auditioning-style videos are crucial, as Audiobro sort of did with Modern Scoring Brass (still not to the extent of Spitfire, Strezov, Cinematic Studio Series, VSL, and others).

MSS has so many _features_, that it seems as if the content covering the engine's capabilities smothered a simple, extended playthrough of the patches using various mics. Sure, use all the knobs and such, but I want to hear the library as much (or more) than I need an explanation of how the ostinato builder works. 

Spitfire's "drama toolkit" or VSL's Synchron libraries are good examples of the mix of "tech and playing" that I personally like in a video.

There's still a lot of time left in the intro period, so I'm not concerned.


----------



## Lazer42

Russell Anderson said:


> Try the Intuition patches. It honestly seems to be a better legato. Also, wherever you can make use of ostenato and runs, try that. There’s a lot under the hood of that library.
> 
> I think you’re feeling how I was feeling using SCS for the first few hours. Plenty of issues there, too, like tuning and transition speed irregularities, dynamics swells. Would I trade it all for Voyage?
> 
> Well... ...well, yeah. But it’s not even out yet, and these are all different libraries. There is a whole lot you’re probably not looking at yet. Try stepping away from the legato for a bit and finding things in the library you DO like. First thing I’d probably be loading up is Aleatoric or playing with the detune, but that’s because I love that stuff. CSS can’t do any of that. But if you want CSS’ style of legato and don’t have it yet, buy it later! Or get Vista or save for Voyage. And try Intuition first, of course, seriously.
> 
> Post some of what you’re working on, or even what you’re not liking. Take a screencapture of what you’re working on and describe what you’re running into that you’re having trouble getting past. If it comes down to it, send a message to Audiobro talking about your concerns. BSS got an update, and if enough people really can’t find *any* way to get done what they’re trying to do, you may even be surprised by an update, too. But between the ostenatos, runs and Intuition I’m not ready by day 2 to give up hope that the library can be very expressive. If you do post, I hope you’ll include some of the Intuition patch in addition to legato work. Intuition may just be the better engine entirely, and it only makes sense from a tech standpoint. As time moves on, I don’t think sampling is going to get much better, but hybrid/modeled instruments are. CSS did something great with their scripting and recording, and Performance Samples seems to be doing the rest of what sampling/scripting alone can do. After that, I really think modelled instruments are an inevitable future (besides live obviously - or... well.... how far into the future are we talking here)


Good advice, but one thing for a lot of folks to to keep in mind as they try to understand the reactions of some (and please note that this is intended much more as a general comment than one directed particularly at you) is that for some people, none of that other stuff is ultimately all that important. 

For example, I cannot see myself ever using an automated ostinato tool. It just isn't something I'm interested in, it doesn't fit into my workflow, etc. 

For others, the idea of mixing and matching different libraries for their string sounds is something they aren't interested in. I'm not talking about layering here, but about taking the shorts (and/or ostinatos) from one library while using legatos from another. It would just sound too disjointed to some.

Etc.

None of this is to belittle or say those who _do _like or use these things/methods/etc. are wrong. If someone gets great use out of the ostinato tool, for instance, then good for them, regardless of what I think. The point is simply that while for some one major element of the library being disappointing doesn't mean there aren't still other things to make it worth it, folks should also try to remember or to realize that for some people having the legatos/sustains not to their liking really does ruin the entire thing.


----------



## Zedcars

Well, I've bought it. I feel it offers enough value to me personally, and the _legato-gate_ may not even be a problem for me once I've got stuck in. Download speed is good, but it won't finish until tonight so I'll have play tomorrow.


----------



## Raphioli

Zedcars said:


> Well, I've bought it. I feel it offers enough value to me personally, and the _legato-gate_ may not even be a problem for me once I've got stuck in. Download speed is good, but *it won't finish until tonight so I'll have play tomorrow.*


Use your DeLorian Doc (your avatar)


----------



## Russell Anderson

novaburst said:


> But the strings sound very expressive and enhance the piece, so I am not sure why the bad vibes with the legatos


What FireGS means to say is that when notes change, it is not often a legato transition. Sustain patches, provided their attacks are appropriate for the setting, are often sufficient or even preferable for bowed/fingered note changes (or seem to be; I’m relatively new to orchestral programming)

Only portamento really “sounds legato-y” by what seems to be the definition most are going by. Fingered and bowed transitions are variably doable with sustains patches with possibly layered shorts. But when a library makes those easily and usefully, functionally available from an adaptive legato patch, that’s pretty handy.


----------



## Evans

Lazer42 said:


> Good advice, but one thing for a lot of folks to to keep in mind as they try to understand the reactions of some (and please note that this is intended much more as a general comment than one directed particularly at you) is that for some people, none of that other stuff is ultimately all that important.


My slight spin on this is that many of MSS's elements are important to me (though I don't care for auto-divisi), but I'm not equipped to buy yet another strings library unless it replaces an older one.

The "basics" (such as legato and shorts variations) therefore have to be right on the money in order for it to be a consideration. I'm not looking for another strings library to have to blend with other strings libraries, for example, matching the octave runs of MSS with the legato of Library-X.

Genesis is lightning in a bottle. Instant inspiration that is a joy to play while being very flexible. MSB fell a bit from that, but its extreme flexibility could save it (the legato speed and volume knobs work wonders). I'd be interested if the same can be shown for MSS.


----------



## FireGS

Russell Anderson said:


> What FireGS means to say is that when notes change, it is not often a legato transition. Sustain patches, provided their attacks are appropriate for the setting, are often sufficient or even preferable for bowed/fingered note changes (or seem to be; I’m relatively new to orchestral programming)
> 
> Only portamento really “sounds legato-y” by what seems to be the definition most are going by. Fingered and bowed transitions are variably doable with sustains patches with possibly layered shorts. But when a library makes those easily and usefully, functionally available from an adaptive legato patch, that’s pretty handy.


We should be friends.


----------



## Russell Anderson

FireGS said:


> We should be friends.


 I come with the unfair advantage in this conversation of playing oboe. So... I don’t know that much about strings, but I know what legato means and I understand “the trap” of library “legato”. And I can hear that trap in some most of these demos, even the CSS demos (though they still sound pretty, it’s still... not how a player would have played it).


----------



## Sovereign

Russell Anderson said:


> Fingered and bowed transitions are variably doable with sustains patches with possibly layered shorts.


Lol, no.


----------



## FireGS

Sovereign said:


> Lol, no.


lol, yes.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Lazer42 said:


> none of that other stuff is ultimately all that important.


I agree completely, I have only 2 things to say:
1) Intuition seems to basically be Performance Legato, all of the “it’s a hybrid engine” talk kind of gets in the way of what it does, dextrous playability, which is probably useful for most (I won’t say anything about aleatoric/detune; it’s all up to user preference, I agree, but IMO, Intuition == Performance Legato essentially)
2) I also had 0 interest in an ostenato engine, but after comparing some legato/sustain ostenatos to Vista, I can respect performed ostenatos more now. Especially if the legato is struggling, having a _recorded_ ostenato engine ends up being a complete boon. For those reasons, I went from “could not care less, has nothing to so with my workflow” to “that’s actually pretty great”. I would use it now.

A big informant on that ostenato engine was trying to recreate this example in SCS: 









Vista - Strings & Harp (no ext. verb / decca mic only / rough, no legato bal) - by Jasper Blunk


Using a very early version of the library.




soundcloud.app.goo.gl





I thought, “no problem!” Heh... Performance sampling can be a great thing.

So now I’m looking forward to hearing some demos including the ostenato engine + intuition patches, where I wasn’t as much before.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Russell Anderson said:


> I come with the unfair advantage in this conversation of playing oboe. So... I don’t know that much about strings, but I know what legato means and I understand “the trap” of library “legato”. And I can hear that trap in some most of these demos, even the CSS demos (though they still sound pretty, it’s still... not how a player would have played it).


For starters, I can't say I've ever seen many pieces of music with a slur going from bar 1 to the end...


----------



## Russell Anderson

Sovereign said:


> Lol, no.


I’ll give you the fingered transitions, those pretty much need to be recorded (I know nothing about scripting, anyway). But bowed transitions? Why not? 

Hmm, now you have me thinking. Perhaps because of the note releases, you’re saying.


----------



## Sovereign

FireGS said:


> lol, yes.


If you seriously believe fingered legato (which is what we find in libraries such as CSS, or Vista) can be imitated "with sustains patches with possibly layered shorts" you are not being serious. Sorry.


----------



## Casiquire

At this point, I'm settled with the perfectly predictable conclusion that a library this deep isn't instantly plonkable. In that light, as much as I appreciate the early adopters showing us their early plonkings, i think I'm really interested in hearing what people come up with after having given it some time and thought.


----------



## novaburst

SHANE TURNER said:


> But legatos are a different beast. If something is off or the person doesn't know what they are doing, the lushest passage becomes instant


I hear you I think let's hope this guy who done the piece sticks around becuase he is making very good music,


----------



## mojamusic

Casiquire said:


> At this point, I'm settled with the perfectly predictable conclusion that a library this deep isn't instantly plonkable. In that light, as much as I appreciate the early adopters showing us their early plonkings, i think I'm really interested in hearing what people come up with after having given it some time and thought.


Every once in a while... wisdom pokes her head into the forum and says "hello." Thanks for posting this


----------



## Sovereign

Russell Anderson said:


> I’ll give you the fingered transitions, those pretty much need to be recorded (I know nothing about scripting, anyway). But bowed transitions? Why not?
> 
> Hmm, now you have me thinking. Perhaps because of the note releases, you’re saying.


Bowed, to a degree perhaps, but am not sure MSS does this convincingly. I am really no fan of imitating articulations at all. Real bowed transitions, which you can find in a small select amount of libraries (Con Moto, Nashville), still have plenty of nuances which IMO you just can't fake.


----------



## Zedcars

Casiquire said:


> At this point, I'm settled with the perfectly predictable conclusion that a library this deep isn't instantly plonkable. In that light, as much as I appreciate the early adopters showing us their early plonkings, i think I'm really interested in hearing what people come up with after having given it some time and thought.


So what you're saying is, when it comes to MSS, don't be a plonker (Rodney*)!

*Only fans of British TV shows from the 80s will get this reference!


----------



## FireGS

Sovereign said:


> If you seriously believe fingered legato (which is what we find in libraries such as CSS, or Vista) can be imitated "with sustains patches with possibly layered shorts" you are not being serious. Sorry.


Oh, okay, so all note transitions done with a finger are defacto legato now. I understand.


----------



## dzilizzi

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


This is the first time I've heard CSS exposed that I've liked it. I normally don't get all the love for it as most demos, including the ones in this thread, sound bad to me. Fortunately, I recently bought BS and thought that sounded good as well. SCS didn't sound so good, which is surprising to me.


----------



## Casiquire

dzilizzi said:


> This is the first time I've heard CSS exposed that I've liked it. I normally don't get all the love for it as most demos, including the ones in this thread, sound bad to me. Fortunately, I recently bought BS and thought that sounded good as well. SCS didn't sound so good, which is surprising to me.


Not to highjack the thread but I'd like to hear your thoughts on BS sometime


----------



## Russell Anderson

Sovereign said:


> Bowed, to a degree perhaps, but am not sure MSS does this convincingly. I am really no fan of imitating articulations at all. Real bowed transitions, which you can find in a small select amount of libraries (Con Moto, Nashville), still have plenty of nuances which IMO you just can't fake.


I am curious then whether you use sustains patches at any point, and where, when you do. As soon as I got a library capable of legato, I ended up shelving sustains patches almost entirely but have begun taking them out again as round robins in adaptive legato patches (SCS) seem to be... well, lacking. Not to mention there are things like tuning problems to be worked around... 

I honestly have only heard NSS one time. It’s probably time to check in again, before I forget and Voyage is released and no one ever hears from me again.


----------



## TintoL

borisb2 said:


> no time for that .. too busy  ..
> jokes aside, I think I spent enough time to get a feeling of the legato controls
> 
> layered the Solo Violin on top - helps a bit, but not enough (so far):


Much better than your first attempt.

Thanks for doing it.


----------



## Russell Anderson

dzilizzi said:


> SCS didn't sound so good, which is surprising to me.


SCS is more of a... fast library. Unless you like flautando. It has flautando.

Granted, I wasn’g able to isolate all of the notes being played by each instrument in the Vista example I talked about above while listening in my horrible listening environment, but suffice it to say every library has its strengths and weaknesses. I would say romantic, expressive molto vibrato _molto espressivo!_ playing is something you’re going to be sad about if you’re using SCS. That’s a job for another library. (But we’ll see! If I get the notes right in the lower voices, you know, it may end up sounding ok. Still a lot harder to do than with other libraries that were built for it)

SCS does sound wonderful, though. Its sound in faster passages is incredibly good, and some of its bleak/droney/magical slow-moving poco espressivo and flautando is so gorgeous. 

If you don’t already own SCS (you might, lol)...

...save for Voyage.


----------



## TintoL

FireGS said:


> Not legatos, but shorts only. Figured I'd start somewhere a bit simpler.
> 
> Full mix:
> 
> View attachment Ocean_MSS_Fullmix.mp3
> 
> 
> MSS only:
> 
> View attachment Ocean_MSS_Only.mp3


Sounds great.... like a japanese game score. I am referring to the style...... 

Here MSS holds well.


----------



## ism

Eptesicus said:


> I just wish more sample developers would explore and expand on what makes CSS so realistic instead of churning out libraries that, whilst good, still dont make any further strives towards realism and musicality.


My belief is this:

CSS' realism is amazing because it bakes in the expressiveness of a single uber-drippingly high romantic idiom. Soaring strings is an even more extreme example - you can't playing anything with Soaring Strings within getting the instance gratification of it sounding absolutely wonderful - so long as you playing within the single, narrow drippingly high-romanticidiom of expressiveness for which it is optimized in all things. But attempt any kind of subtlety outside of the very narrowly drippingly high-romantic idiom and it makes you want to slam your head in a door - not only is it unrealistic, it's horrendous inexpressive.


CSS is slightly more general purpose that the extreme hyper-focus of Soaring strings, but only slightly. It's optimized at all levels for more or less a single idiom. In between Soaring Strings and CSS is Vista - which is very transparently and deeply unapologetically optimized for a *single* idiom, which is baked into the artistic vision, the performance, the samples, the legatos, the scripting and the sound at even level.

Of course, in a large swathes of media music, "strings" are simply synonymous with this single, Hollywood drippingly high romantic idiom.

But outside this single, narrow, Hollywood/ high romantic lens, there's all kind of wonderful things that strings can do, but are obliteratingly washed out when you try to expresses them in a library so single-mindedly optimized for the drippingly Hollywood high-romantic idiom.


So no disrespect whatever for the idiom or technical excellence of Vista, Soaring Strings CSS and their ilk, but the exciting think about MSS is that it's really innovating very hard to open expressive spaces, and not just retread the baked-in-drippily-high-romantic idiom. Which, in any event, it market niche that is very, very well served already.


----------



## Lazer42

SHANE TURNER said:


> For starters, I can't say I've ever seen many pieces of music with a slur going from bar 1 to the end...


That's true, but it seems to me a pretty important point being... missed? neglected? overlooked? is that in no legato patch I am aware of in any library are transitions played all the time. Rather, they only play when you overlap notes or have CC64 turned up or keep the notes within a certain short time window of one another. 

In other words, yes, you absolutely can use a single legato patch for all sustain/legato lines in just about every library I know of, because the legato patch literally _is the sustain patch _with transitions played instead of sustain only _when the correct conditions are met. _


----------



## Supremo

ism said:


> My belief is this:
> 
> CSS' realism is amazing because it bakes in the expressiveness of a single uber-drippingly high romantic idiom. Soaring strings is an even more extreme example - you can't playing anything with Soaring Strings within getting the instance gratification of it sounding absolutely wonderful - so long as you playing within the single, narrow drippingly high-romanticidiom of expressiveness for which it is optimized in all things. But attempt any kind of subtlety outside of the very narrowly drippingly high-romantic idiom and it makes you want to slam your head in a door - not only is it unrealistic, it's horrendous inexpressive.
> 
> 
> CSS is slightly more general purpose that the extreme hyper-focus of Soaring strings, but only slightly. It's optimized at all levels for more or less a single idiom. In between Soaring Strings and CSS is Vista - which is very transparently and deeply unapologetically optimized for a *single* idiom, which is baked into the artistic vision, the performance, the samples, the legatos, the scripting and the sound at even level.
> 
> Of course, in a large swather of media composition, "strings" are simply synonymous with this single, Hollywood drippingly high romantic idiom.
> 
> But outside this single, narrow, Hollywood/ high romantic lens, there's all kind of wonderful things that strings can do, but are obliteratingly washed out when you try to expresses them in a library only so single-mindedly optimized for the drippingly Hollywood high-romantic idiom.
> 
> 
> So no disrespect whatever for the idiom or technical excellence of Vista, Soaring Strings CSS and their ilk, but the exciting think about MSS is that it's really innovating very hard to open expressive spaces, and not just retread the baked-in-drippily-high-romantic idiom. Which, in any event, it market niche that is very, very well served already.


For the purpose of getting un-Romantic un-molto vibrato idiom there is Areia Lite for 80 bucks, having much more convincing legato sound than that of MSS.


----------



## ism

Supremo said:


> For the purpose of getting un-Romantic un-molto vibrato idiom there is Areia Lite for 80 bucks, having much more convincing legato sound than that of MSS.



Areia is an even narrower idiom, which I think of as the “high-modern, hyper-Daniel-James-y agressiveness” sound.

I’ve thought of picking it up, as it does what it says on the tin really well. 

But I don’t know what it has to do with MSS, which aspires to vastly larger, richer expressive spaces.


----------



## Russell Anderson

FireGS said:


> Oh, okay, so all note transitions done with a finger are defacto legato now. I understand.


I’m wanting to agree with Lazer above me: I would like, for ease of use, to use just one loaded patch instance for most if not all of an instrument. MSS seems to be pretty good about this layering of functionalities and as a bonus Intuition uses next to no extra memory when loaded up with the library.

But I’d definitely rather load up one inclusive adaptive legato/instrument patch that can be used easily for getting the transitions I want (incl. sustains alone as well as bowed/fingered when I choose) than having to load up a sustain patch separately. Imo it should include all of the sustain, including the round robins.

Is it normal to have round robins for legato transitions, as well? Because some of these tuning issues that happen _every time_ in some SCS transitions are real... eyebrow raisers.


----------



## Casiquire

Supremo said:


> For the purpose of getting un-Romantic un-molto vibrato idiom there is Areia Lite for 80 bucks, having much more convincing legato sound than that of MSS.


I've heard some of their legatos, and... agree to disagree. Also their Ostinato engine, runs builder, divisi, etc don't hold up 😉


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Casiquire said:


> I've heard some of their legatos, and... agree to disagree. Also their Ostinato engine, runs builder, divisi, etc don't hold up 😉


Areia has a runs builder?


----------



## soulofsound

Casiquire said:


> I've heard some of their legatos, and... agree to disagree. Also their Ostinato engine, runs builder, divisi, etc don't hold up 😉


Also it is impossible to judge the MSS legato by what's been posted here in the forum.


----------



## Eptesicus

ism said:


> My belief is this:
> 
> CSS' realism is amazing because it bakes in the expressiveness of a single uber-drippingly high romantic idiom. Soaring strings is an even more extreme example - you can't playing anything with Soaring Strings within getting the instance gratification of it sounding absolutely wonderful - so long as you playing within the single, narrow drippingly high-romanticidiom of expressiveness for which it is optimized in all things. But attempt any kind of subtlety outside of the very narrowly drippingly high-romantic idiom and it makes you want to slam your head in a door - not only is it unrealistic, it's horrendous inexpressive.
> 
> 
> CSS is slightly more general purpose that the extreme hyper-focus of Soaring strings, but only slightly. It's optimized at all levels for more or less a single idiom. In between Soaring Strings and CSS is Vista - which is very transparently and deeply unapologetically optimized for a *single* idiom, which is baked into the artistic vision, the performance, the samples, the legatos, the scripting and the sound at even level.
> 
> Of course, in a large swathes of media music, "strings" are simply synonymous with this single, Hollywood drippingly high romantic idiom.
> 
> But outside this single, narrow, Hollywood/ high romantic lens, there's all kind of wonderful things that strings can do, but are obliteratingly washed out when you try to expresses them in a library so single-mindedly optimized for the drippingly Hollywood high-romantic idiom.
> 
> 
> So no disrespect whatever for the idiom or technical excellence of Vista, Soaring Strings CSS and their ilk, but the exciting think about MSS is that it's really innovating very hard to open expressive spaces, and not just retread the baked-in-drippily-high-romantic idiom. Which, in any event, it market niche that is very, very well served already.



But the trouble is, it doesnt sound that realistic doing what the others can't do so its a bit of a moot point.

The other main issue is that when you do need something to deliver realism/expression and musicality you have to switch libraries.

The space is pining for something that can do it all. So far CSS is one of the closest to that.


----------



## Casiquire

NeonMediaKJT said:


> Areia has a runs builder?


That's my point lol


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Casiquire said:


> That's my point lol


Ohhh now I understand


----------



## ism

Eptesicus said:


> But the trouble is, it doesnt sound that realistic doing what the others can't do so its a bit of a moot point.
> 
> The other main issue is that when you do need something to deliver realism/expression and musicality you have to switch libraries.
> 
> The space is pining for something that can do it all. So far CSS is one of the closest to that.



But my point is that, for what I want to do, CSS does almost nothing. 

It captures that romantic ‘individual swell of emotion’ beautifully. But there are other subjectivities and nuances that I feel it might be nice to express with strings also.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Lazer42 said:


> in no legato patch I am aware of in any library are transitions played all the time.


I don't know if it's overlooked--after all if you write a brief legato phrase and have no choice but to play transitions long after the last note stopped, the library probably has a stuck notes bug or another error...

I believe the problem that was being brought up was people treating legato like something you just turn on and forget about, not so much the library.


----------



## chapbot

william81723 said:


> I have to say....after working with MSS in hours.The legato really makes me regret buying it....
> Really sticky between each notes.
> The previous notes' release time are too long and then make the transtitions blurry..OMG
> My money's gone.......


My feelings exactly. It just doesn't feel right under my fingers.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Audio Waveform Player with Playlist



Listening to this violin/cello legato in #7: “At Long Last” in comparison to the legato towards the middle of Chosen One - Strings Only (+ user demos thus far), it’s hard to believe they’re part of the same legato scripting. To my ear, At Long Last sounds really wonderful, but the legato cello in the middle of Chosen One, aside from the ostenatos, seems to be suffering that described “synthiness” / lack of much clarity/dynamic.

I wonder if Intuition is at play on At Long Last...? Whatever it is, it sounds really good.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Eptesicus said:


> But the trouble is, it doesnt sound that realistic doing what the others can't do so its a bit of a moot point.
> 
> The other main issue is that when you do need something to deliver realism/expression and musicality you have to switch libraries.
> 
> The space is pining for something that can do it all. So far CSS is one of the closest to that.


I wish it did. I'm one of these people with a day job who takes occasional contracts and the ones that I do tend to be surreal, horror, sci fi. That means I'm using sul ponts, flautandos and sordinos on the reg. Emulated mutes meant CSS wasn't workable for me. It's too bad because otherwise it is pretty brilliant.

One of the reasons I got MSS is because there aren't a lot of libraries out there that provide legato transitions for these styles. So my fingers are crossed I can figure out this legato... otherwise I'll be using MSS for longs much like I use say, SF LCO strings


----------



## gst98

ism said:


> Areia is an even narrower idiom, which I think of as the “high-modern, hyper-Daniel-James-y agressiveness” sound.
> 
> I’ve thought of picking it up, as it does what it says on the tin really well.
> 
> But I don’t know what it has to do with MSS, which aspires to vastly larger, richer expressive spaces.


Does this sound like Daniel james to you?

I agree with you about something like soaring strings having "a sound", because it is only molto vibrato at a loud dynamic. But the AI samples, much like CSS, have plenty of dynamic layers, vib and non-vib (as well as different mics and mixes).
So I don't really understand why they would be pigeon-holed into a certain genre. Did they get out their epic violins for this recording? or their epic mics?


----------



## chapbot

Raphioli said:


> This is my hopes as well. Some other developers have improved their legato via updates.
> So if that's the case, I hope Audiobro does the same.
> 
> 
> Or maybe doing what dxmachina says, and disabling auto divisi would make the legatos musical.
> I'd appreciate if someone could test this out if it improves the legato.


It does not improve the legato, I have auto divisi turned off.


----------



## Raphioli

I think I get what both @ism and @Eptesicus are saying.
Maybe it all ends up what you're prioritizing.

For example, novaburst posted an official demo of MSS. If that's the type of music you mostly compose, I don't think legatos are crucial.
For people who mostly compose lyrical stuff, then the quality of the legatos will probably be something that will make or break a library for them.

Legatos are very important for me, but I also can see a lot of the pros of MSS (as @ism and others have said),
so I'm going to hold on to my MSS budget and hope they come up with an update before the intro sale ends.



chapbot said:


> It does not improve the legato, I have auto divisi turned off.


Thanks, @SHANE TURNER informed me of that as well. So I'm hoping for an update.
Other developers have improved their legato scripting in the past, so there's no reason why Audiobro can't


----------



## Russell Anderson

So how about Intuition? Despite “excelling at faster lines and runs”, I’m curious how far you can stretch it in the other direction. And I’m also wondering, for those with the extended legato, does Intuition include those extended legato patches? (Or is it even a matter of “including” them?)


----------



## chapbot

Casiquire said:


> At this point, I'm settled with the perfectly predictable conclusion that a library this deep isn't instantly plonkable. In that light, as much as I appreciate the early adopters showing us their early plonkings, i think I'm really interested in hearing what people come up with after having given it some time and thought.


You are correct, sir.


----------



## Soundbed

For those who have it, have you found a way to legato transition OUT of the ostinatos?

What I've tried:

I have loaded them both into a "tile" so I can keyswitch. I can get the transition into the ostinato sounding pretty smooth.

Transitioning out of the ostinato back into the arco legato seems very tricky. Well, nearly impossible

I'm using Violins 1A.

The engine wants to either keep playing an "extra" overlapping ostinato –or– the recorded ostinato ends a bit "early" ... so that there's quick "gap" before the keyswitch changes articulations and the new sustained note can begin making sound. Again they are both already loaded into RAM and in the same "tile" ... it's about the way the engine is trying to either *finish* or *stop* the ostinato.

I've tried many, many timings of the 3 relevant MIDI notes: (1) the ostinato note end time (2) the keyswitch note back to standard (arco) Legato start time (3) the legato note start time. Meaning: butting them right up to one another, overlapping, and various gaps between all three.

I've tried using both up and down ostinato to create what would have been notated the same (so the final note is either the final down or the final up of the ostinato), Smart, Played and Interval ostinato version, auto sync on and off.

If there's no way other than to *not use keyswitches* and simply put ostinato parts on separate tracks instead, that is fine with me. I thought it would be a neat trick to be able to keyswitch OUT of the ostinato back into legato.

But again if I need to "transition" out of an ostinato smoothly I could probably do it with a separate track / instrument instantiation too (rather than trying to keyswitch from ostinato to legato/sustains).


----------



## soulofsound

Russell Anderson said:


> I wonder if Intuition is at play on At Long Last...? Whatever it is, it sounds really good.


It's the legato con sordino out of the box, not intuition. With cello line played with ostinato keyswitch and solo violin is just legato, no sordino.


----------



## ism

gst98 said:


> Does this sound like Daniel james to you?
> 
> I agree with you about something like soaring strings having "a sound", because it is only molto vibrato at a loud dynamic. But the AI samples, much like CSS, have plenty of dynamic layers, vib and non-vib (as well as different mics and mixes).
> So I don't really understand why they would be pigeon-holed into a certain genre. Did they get out their epic violins for this recording? or their epic mics?



Yes, absolutely, in that it’s a very modern sound, full of aggressiveness and the potential for aggressiveness, even if this particular composition does hit the aggressiveness as hard as it might. 

And everything about AI promises this - there’s a modern, aggressive edge in the company name, the product name, in the dynamics, the graphic design, the mics, the marketing, the demos, the Daniel James walkthroughs, and so on.

So if Daniel-James-y is maybe a bit tongue in cheek, I also think it’s perfectly apt, and perfectly descriptive.

(And in no way pejorative, just to be clear).


----------



## Russell Anderson

Wow. I didn’t know mutes had such a dramatic impact on legato transitions.

... really, why is there such a huge difference in legato quality? Or is there a huge difference, and I’m just mistaken? I mean, I suppose I would also understand charging another $2-300 for legato, considering what’s in the library, but I wouldn’t guess they’d sell “nerfed” legato in the standard library.

I must be hearing things or something, I don’t know.

**EDIT: *to be clear, I’m talking mostly of the violin/upper voices


----------



## Evans

I just want something to pull off 1:05 through 1:55 at least 50% convincingly. Is that too much to ask? Yes? Well, never mind 2:07, then.



Just kidding, I don't write like this. I strum my guitars and play a few chords with Ben Osterhouse libraries and call it a day.


----------



## Russell Anderson

soulofsound said:


> With cello line played with ostinato keyswitch and solo violin is just legato, no sordino.


Thanks, you edited yours before I edited mine to ask what you just answered. 

To me, that violin legato sounds good. I wonder why there’s such a wide gap in example quality. Or whether it’s just me?


----------



## gst98

ism said:


> Yes, absolutely, in that it’s a very modern sound, full of aggressiveness and the potential for aggressiveness, even if this particular composition does hit the aggressiveness as hard as it might.
> 
> And everything about AI promises this - there’s a modern, aggressive edge in the company name, the product name, in the dynamics, the graphic design, the mics, the marketing, the demos, the Daniel James walkthroughs, and so on.
> 
> So if Daniel-James-y is maybe a bit tongue in cheek, I also think it’s perfectly apt, and perfectly descriptive.
> 
> (And in no way pejorative, just to be clear).


Yes, I wasn't meaning it wasn't modern sounding, but was about you saying daniel james-y, which to me meant like you were saying it was only ff and heavy vibrato. The video was just to show that strings with a modern and dry sound can still do various kinds of music. The writing is more important, and he didn't even go to any lengths to change mics to get it to sound more classical.


----------



## jbuhler

I really wasn’t in the market for another string library, and I’m not sure MSS is my sound (I’m still not sold on the room which also kept me from getting MSB) but I am hearing a lot to like in this library and it has, I think, a distinct profile compared to other string libraries on the market. That’s very much s good thing, and I’m far more intrigued by MSS than I am by CSS or Vista.


----------



## soulofsound

Russell Anderson said:


> Thanks, you edited yours before I edited mine to ask what you just answered.
> 
> To me, that violin legato sounds good. I wonder why there’s such a wide gap in example quality. Or whether it’s just me?


Which example quality do you mean?


----------



## ism

gst98 said:


> Yes, I wasn't meaning it wasn't modern sounding, but was about you saying daniel james-y, which to me meant like you were saying it was only ff and heavy vibrato. The video was just to show that strings with a modern and dry sound can still do various kinds of music. The writing is more important, and he didn't even go to any lengths to change mics to get it to sound more classical.



I guess I feel very acutely the nuances of sound and expressivenss, which is why i genuinely like to have so many string libraries, and don’t consider it GAS at all. 

This is a lovely composition. Where it to be re-done with, say, OT Special Bows Sul Tastos, or Tundra, or Vista, it wouldn’t just sound a bit differently, it would *mean* completely something different. 

Even in the lyricality of the composition, the latent aggressiveness in the crispy, modern (Daniel-James-y) sound contributes to its meaning.



This is becoming actually quite an interesting thread. Clearly (and unsurprisingly) MSS doesn’t pander to the instant-plonkability demands of market logic. It’s designed for really crafting expressiveness, and some of the bleeding edge early adopter friction aside, I’m excited to see all the spaces that this will open.


----------



## Ryan Fultz

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK I finally had a chance to bang out an abx comparison, as close as it gets...
> 
> Four libraries, 30s each. Only close mics used, no fx, no EQ, all built in panning. Each section is around -15 LUFS. Where possible, I used rebowing, different attacks and the odd portamento. No fast legato this time though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Answers
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Con Moto
> 2. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 3. MSS
> 4. Cinestrings



That was a massively interesting listen for me.

Guess I'll kick the hornet's nest and say #3 had by far the most emotion and detail. #4 was the only other one I actually liked and would think to purchase if this was the only way the libraries present and #1 sounded straight hideous to me.

Though this isn't all that relevant of a test since I would likely only in very, very rare cases use just a close mic, its still pretty interesting to me to hear what I like, and what my ear picks up on, versus others.



Casiquire said:


> At this point, I'm settled with the perfectly predictable conclusion that a library this deep isn't instantly plonkable. In that light, as much as I appreciate the early adopters showing us their early plonkings, i think I'm really interested in hearing what people come up with after having given it some time and thought.


Gotta agree, there seems to be way too much detail and adjustability going on to expect anyone to be making much out of this library for a bit. I'm usually of the opinion that it takes me a solid year with an orchestral library to really wring out all the ability it truly has to offer and to be honest the legato needs to be as good as most other libraries to make this a buy, I'm here for the detune, the divisi, the deep digging that this library seems to offer. The "all-in-one" package of this library is a big selling point to me and I've listened to enough music now to know the tone is pretty moldable which is all that really matters to me. If I can turn off the IR, use my own prefered reverb, and eq a smidge to change the tone to what I want, then I'm sold. I bought NSS purely for the tone, it instantly had a sound that I love and am willing to work around some of the workflow issues I don't like about it, MSS's big selling point to me right now is as something significantly closer to one set of patches that can get really close to writing a real string section that can have a much easier time creating what is easy to notate on paper and painstaking (if even possible to make passible) to do with samples.

If someone hadn't stolen my debit card and pin at the store a couple days ago and drained out $500 before I caught it I would of already purchased this and been testing it out on some radically different music than what people seem focused on right now. But now MSS has to compete with another library I was planning on getting so I'll keep watching and listening for the next couple weeks as I make up my mind where to put my money.

What I'm saying is, guys, someone give me some action cues, use those detunes and aleatoric patches, hit me with the runs and ostinatos and then throw a very lyrical line over the top of the whole thing with with a very hyper-produced sound, its clear to me I can get a great natural sound out of this library, someone show me I can get something UNnatural.


----------



## jbuhler

dzilizzi said:


> This is the first time I've heard CSS exposed that I've liked it. I normally don't get all the love for it as most demos, including the ones in this thread, sound bad to me. Fortunately, I recently bought BS and thought that sounded good as well. SCS didn't sound so good, which is surprising to me.


SCS has a pronounced nasal quality I think that you either like or you don’t. Personally I like it and it generally suits my music. BS is a great sound but I find the Capsule implementation hard to use. I’m really looking forward to the port to Sine. I also dislike the sound of CSS. I appreciate what others can do with it but it’s really not for me. So far I’m mixed on the sound of MSS, but I remain intrigued.


----------



## Vik

I miss more demos which are strings only – which demonstrate that MSS can do what LASS can do – with a different 'sound' (because it's a larger ensemble). I'll (again) post two of my fav. LASS YouTube-clips only because I, like several others, want to find out if MSS handles this kind of legato playing as well as LASS can.

And BTW, when mentioning 'legato playing', I'm not particularly focusing on the actual legato transitions, but on whether MSS is suitable for melodic (romantic stuff, 12-tone melodies or something else).

Are there any strings only demos of the MSS Legato Expansions out there? I haven't seen any yet.


----------



## ism

dzilizzi said:


> SCS didn't sound so good, which is surprising to me.


I agree - but I wonder if this isn't about the close mic. SCS isn't meant to be used with the close mic only. Unlike a dry library like MSS, close mics recorded this way are to add detail too the tree, not a substitute for a dry-ish recording.

Close mic only on any AIR Lynduhurst libraries sounds bad. Really bad, kind of an uncanny in-your-face quality. Mixing them with the tree is where the magic happens, and the whole point of recording in AIR.

(Yet another pitfall in comparing sample libraries)


----------



## william81723

chapbot said:


> It does not improve the legato, I have auto divisi turned off.


+1


----------



## Russell Anderson

soulofsound said:


> Which example quality do you mean?


Most user demos + the cello legatos in the middle of te Chosen One audio demo from the audiobro website.


----------



## Raphioli

Vik said:


> I miss more demos which are strings only – which demonstrate that MSS can do what LASS can do – with a different 'sound' (because it's a larger ensemble). I'll (again) post two of my fav. LASS YouTube-clips only because I, like several others, want to find out if MSS handles this kind of legato playing as well as LASS can.
> 
> And BTW, when mentioning 'legato playing', I'm not particularly focusing on the actual legato transitions, but on whether MSS is suitable for melodic (romanti 12-tone melodies or something else).
> 
> Are there any strings only demos of the MSS Legato Expansions out there? I haven't seen any yet.



I'd really like to hear how these 2 compositions would sound with MSS.


----------



## Vik

Raphioli said:


> I'd really like to hear how these 2 compositions would sound with MSS.


Sure, and they should sound as good or better*, because ABs knowledge and technology/code has developed since LASS was created back in ...2008? 2009?

(* except that some details disappear with larger ensembles, also when using close mics)


----------



## Russell Anderson

@dzilizzi
To clarify what I said before; I wouldn’t _just_ say SCSis “fast”; I’d also say it’s very classical. It lends itself very well to classical and very... “tempered” music. And also very quick music. Super believable for runs and fingered legato on playable patches. Not as romantic, no molto vib/espressivo. For all the troubles I have with tuning (especially as a non-Kontakt owner who can’t yet fix the scripting if I wanted to), there is generally a workaround, like using Runs/Fast legato or sneaking in a sustain patch. Also, I second what was just mentioned about the mics - the sound becomes much more flattering when you add some Tree. Even just a bit.

Voyage strings are likely to cost at least $1000, with WW/Brass similarly priced. So, bear that in mind as well. Not that anyone but me made any mention of it, but since I did, note the price gap. Spitfire regularly sells SCS standard for $400, PS sales... I don’t know.

I also remain intrigued about MSS; much for the same reasons as I believe:


Ryan Fultz said:


> What I'm saying is, guys, someone give me some action cues, use those detunes and aleatoric patches, hit me with the runs and ostinatos and then throw a very lyrical line over the top of the whole thing with with a very hyper-produced sound, its clear to me I can get a great natural sound out of this library, someone show me I can get something UNnatural.


I’m with this guy. Padshop, Harmor, granular synths and resonators... and aleatoric and detune? Let’s GO baby!

But I also want to use some of that warmth for pretty stuff, so I will stay here on the fence until I have more confidence about said pretty stuff. Really great library. Highly unsure about the legato transitions, despite my excitement for the parameters/Intuition.


----------



## soulofsound

Russell Anderson said:


> Most user demos + the cello legatos in the middle of te Chosen One audio demo from the audiobro website.


I don't know really. The user demos seem to have been recorded quickly by users who had just downloaded. To me that doesn't tell much. But i don't want to belittle people's experience if they think otherwise, only say that it's not my experience.


----------



## mojamusic

dzilizzi said:


> This is the first time I've heard CSS exposed that I've liked it. I normally don't get all the love for it as most demos, including the ones in this thread, sound bad to me. Fortunately, I recently bought BS and thought that sounded good as well. SCS didn't sound so good, which is surprising to me.


to be fair this is not the best demo to showcase CSS. it is an amazing tool.


----------



## dzilizzi

Russell Anderson said:


> SCS is more of a... fast library. Unless you like flautando. It has flautando.
> 
> Granted, I wasn’g able to isolate all of the notes being played by each instrument in the Vista example I talked about above while listening in my horrible listening environment, but suffice it to say every library has its strengths and weaknesses. I would say romantic, expressive molto vibrato _molto espressivo!_ playing is something you’re going to be sad about if you’re using SCS. That’s a job for another library. (But we’ll see! If I get the notes right in the lower voices, you know, it may end up sounding ok. Still a lot harder to do than with other libraries that were built for it)
> 
> SCS does sound wonderful, though. Its sound in faster passages is incredibly good, and some of its bleak/droney/magical slow-moving poco espressivo and flautando is so gorgeous.
> 
> If you don’t already own SCS (you might, lol)...
> 
> ...save for Voyage.


I use SSS more than SCS. And I am still a beginner and learning this stuff. Truthfully, I am more of a pop/rock writer who started getting into orchestral VI's because string machine sounds were not quite doing it. Then I started having fun learning how to add music to pictures/short films. Then the collecting started. 



I've been slowly listening to the videos on this. The ostinato/ART is rather interesting to me - especially being able to drag and drop the articulations. That gives the option of layering other instruments. Just not sure it is worth the full price of admission for a string library I really don't need. (I don't have LASS)


----------



## gst98

ism said:


> I guess I feel very acutely the nuances of sound and expressivenss, which is why i genuinely like to have so many string libraries, and don’t consider it GAS at all.
> 
> This is a lovely composition. Where it to be re-done with, say, OT Special Bows Sul Tastos, or Tundra, or Vista, it wouldn’t just sound a bit differently, it would *mean* completely something different.
> 
> Even in the lyricality of the composition, the latent aggressiveness in the crispy, modern (Daniel-James-y) sound contributes to its meaning.
> 
> 
> 
> This is becoming actually quite an interesting thread. Clearly (and unsurprisingly) MSS doesn’t pander to the instant-plonkability demands of market logic. It’s designed for really crafting expressiveness, and some of the bleeding edge early adopter friction aside, I’m excited to see all the spaces that this will open.


I get where you're coming from, but the example you gave I think are whole worlds apart rather than just nuances (other than OT Special bows which sound very similar). If we are to guess where MSS was recorded based off of other Audiobro samples, then AI and Audiobro are recording very similar orchestras in the same part of the world in similar studios with a dry sound. They even come with the same common mic positions. Now, if the epic sound is in the top dynamics mostly, then what is going to different about an mf spiccato, for example, in MSS compared to Areia? Putting aside the AI modern mic mix, shouldn't we expect them to be very similar? after all the players trained in claisscal music the same way London or Berlin players did.

Worth bearing in mind that Jasper is a (mostly) a trailer composer, who made samples for his trailer composer friends, and recently clarified that voyage wouldn't just be for trailer composers, but will be classically inspired. The only thing trailer-y about Jaspers samples is that most companies don't sample FFF legato. Hence why people in all genres are loving Vista.


----------



## Russell Anderson

soulofsound said:


> I don't know really. The user demos seem to have been recorded quickly by users who had just downloaded. To me that doesn't tell much. But i don't want to belittle people's experience if they think otherwise, only say that it's not my experience.


I want to be with you on that and for the most part I am, but it’s really the background instruments in *some* of the official demos that are giving me the most pause, as they are sounding similar to some of these user demos in their dynamic... displeasure, and their crossfadey legato sounds. Not all demos; as mentioned some sound really good, and I want to know if it was just composer-related? Only some of them knew how to work MSS? It could also just be another matter of taste...

It’s no matter to me now. I have months to wait for people to learn, as I won’t be buying *anything* until Black Friday at the absolute earliest. Hopefully this learning process with MSS is not at Audiobro’s expense, unless it winds up being largely unanimous that they ought to release a legato/phase update, and hopefully such complaints are sufficiently grounded. I have my doubts both ways at the moment. But I am finding that even barring legato entirely that there is a lot of very interesting stuff in this library, and the sound is growing on me. 

Or I should say, there are moments when I love the warmth and moments when I don’t appreciate the sloshy Fruity Limiter bassed-out phasey room sound. The latter is largely fixable with width/mics and either EQ or volume reduction of the bass; the instruments and legato techniques, just going to have to wait and see. I both like them and don’t, but love the other techniques and tools.


----------



## feck

Casiquire said:


> Not to highjack the thread but I'd like to hear your thoughts on BS sometime


Plenty of people in this thread are giving thoughts on BS


----------



## turnerofwheels

Ryan Fultz said:


> That was a massively interesting listen for me.
> 
> Guess I'll kick the hornet's nest and say #3 had by far the most emotion and detail. #4 was the only other one I actually liked and would think to purchase if this was the only way the libraries present and #1 sounded straight hideous to me.
> 
> Though this isn't all that relevant of a test since I would likely only in very, very rare cases use just a close mic, its still pretty interesting to me to hear what I like, and what my ear picks up on, versus others.


OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.

There's also a secret fifth contender





Spoiler: Answers



1. Cinestrings
2. MSS Sul Tasto (extended)
3. Con Moto
4. Spitfire Chamber Strings
5. MSS standard legato articulation

For the Sul Tasto, I tried to replicate the settings as much as possible, though I think the legato times are a bit different. Also, there's no vibration knob in the extended legato. Once again, auto divisi is disabled.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Hi guys,

So I bought MSS and tried tinckering a bit with it today. Jeezes, this is one comprehensive library!

I couldn't resist to try my hand at a snippet of Schindler's List.

Please, please bear in mind I'm just an amateur.


----------



## ism

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.
> 
> There's also a secret fifth contender
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Answers
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Cinestrings
> 2. MSS Sul Tasto (extended)
> 3. Con Moto
> 4. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 5. MSS standard legato articulation
> 
> For the Sul Tasto, I tried to replicate the settings as much as possible, though I think the legato times are a bit different. Also, there's no vibration knob in the extended legato. Once again, auto divisi is disabled.



Very nice. This makes me want SCS, Cinestrings, and Con Moto, in addition to MSS. They all have very real strengths.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

I'll edit my prior posts to reflect this, but here are the same demos I posted before with new MIDI CC data and settings, as well as Intuition patch versions:









MSS Demos


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





I decided to use close and stage mics now (close and decca on intuition), and I actually lowered the legato transition volume, speed, and then shaved about 3-5% off of the brightness dial.


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> I think it sounds fine, but the dynamic feels way too loud. Both how loud they're mixed and the dynamic layer being used







that's the dynamics I used that I found pleasing with MSS yesterday (second line is rebow automation) .. ok, a bit high, I agree - it was late.



new attempt below with lower dynamics (but still same notes - will replay all later if I find time) .. by the way, Auto-Divisi is of course always OFF


----------



## dzilizzi

mojamusic said:


> to be fair this is not the best demo to showcase CSS. it is an amazing tool.


I'm trying not to laugh at this. The demos that everyone usually loves, I just am nope. Not my sound. Just don't like it at all.


----------



## TintoL

Duncan Krummel said:


> I'll edit my prior posts to reflect this, but here are the same demos I posted before with new MIDI CC data and settings, as well as Intuition patch versions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I decided to use close and stage mics now (close and decca on intuition), and I actually lowered the legato transition volume, speed, and then shaved about 3-5% off of the brightness dial.


These versions are much more improved IMHO. Now I can hear a much smaller difference between CSS and MSS.

What do you find did the most difference at improving the slow and fast legatos, the mic change or the legato transitions volume?

IMO, the weakest of all is surprisingly the "intuition patch".

Thanks for doing all this work.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I do wonder if the fact that many demos are focused on aleatoric indicates what Audiobro believed were the strengths and differentiating factors for MSS (even the first demo listed is focused on detune, which seems so strange for a flagship string library). While, if you listen to CSS demos or Spitfire, they tend to be more focused on the bread and butter. I think if demos are to go by maybe MSS is a more of a specialized use case type of library. And if you aren't looking for that use case, the demos won't capture you (while for example, even the pre-alpha demos of Voyage have blown me away https://www.performancesamples.com/voyage/ and I am no PS fan boy, don't own anything by them).


----------



## ism

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I do wonder if the fact that many demos are focused on aleatoric indicates what Audiobro believed were the strengths and differentiating factors for MSS (even the first demo listed is focused on detune, which seems so strange for a flagship string library). While, if you listen to CSS demos or Spitfire, they tend to be more focused on the bread and butter. I think if demos are to go by maybe MSS is a more of a specialized use case type of library. And if you aren't looking for that use case, the demos won't capture you (while for example, even the pre-alpha demos of Voyage have blown me away https://www.performancesamples.com/voyage/ and I am no PS fan boy, don't own anything by them).


I kind of feel the same way about the genesis demos - they're not really what sold me on the library. But then the Library is unbeatable bread and butter, even without it's deepest features.


----------



## turnerofwheels

ism said:


> Very nice. This makes me want SCS, Cinestrings, and Con Moto, in addition to MSS. They all have very real strengths.


Thanks. I also did rework each example for each library to try to show that.

Despite my initial legato hangups, MSS clearly has it's own feel to it. It will be a while before I know for sure, but there's a few moments where I feel I am matching up with how the library works and I can hear a lushness when moving through the dynamics. I get the sense that the legatos in this library will require adding in a lot of motion that is built in to other libraries by default.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Also worth mentioning, but there's already an update out in ADC.


TintoL said:


> These versions are much more improved IMHO. Now I can hear a much smaller difference between CSS and MSS.
> 
> What do you find did the most difference at improving the slow and fast legatos, the mic change or the legato transitions volume?
> 
> IMO, the weakest of all is surprisingly the "intuition patch".
> 
> Thanks for doing all this work.


Agreed. Though I still think it's important to realize that this is probably just not the type of sound where MSS will really shine. This is definitely CSS territory, and I'm glad to have both options available.

As for the bigger difference, I'd chalk the legato improvements to be the settings themselves and the revised CC data. The change in mic positions - as well as dimming the brightness - was a matter of tone. Too much space, and then too much high frequency content created what was to my ears an unpleasant tone, so I adjusted accordingly.


----------



## dzilizzi

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.
> 
> There's also a secret fifth contender
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Answers
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Cinestrings
> 2. MSS Sul Tasto (extended)
> 3. Con Moto
> 4. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 5. MSS standard legato articulation
> 
> For the Sul Tasto, I tried to replicate the settings as much as possible, though I think the legato times are a bit different. Also, there's no vibration knob in the extended legato. Once again, auto divisi is disabled.



Listening on my not so great computer speakers, they actually sound very similar. As in with these settings, you could swap them out if needed. The EQ and Seventh Heaven really helps I think.


----------



## WinterEmerald

Sorry guys, I know I promised some dry legato demos but right now I'm struggling to even download the expanded legato parts, not because of Audiobro, but my Mac is giving me this purgeable space rubbish! Desperately trying to make space.


----------



## dzilizzi

WinterEmerald said:


> Sorry guys, I know I promised some dry demos but right now I'm struggling to even download the expanded legato parts, not because of Audiobro, but my Mac is giving me this purgeable space rubbish! Desperately trying to make space.


This is where you have an external drive for downloads. Just any old external drive. And it will double as a backup drive.


----------



## TintoL

Duncan Krummel said:


> Also worth mentioning, but there's already an update out in ADC.
> 
> Agreed. Though I still think it's important to realize that this is probably just not the type of sound where MSS will really shine. This is definitely CSS territory, and I'm glad to have both options available.
> 
> As for the bigger difference, I'd chalk the legato improvements to be the settings themselves and the revised CC data. The change in mic positions - as well as dimming the brightness - was a matter of tone. Too much space, and then too much high frequency content created what was to my ears an unpleasant tone, so I adjusted accordingly.


I also agree that the style in the example is more in the CSS territory. However, your tweaks show that MSS can give more solid results. I have been very exceptical up to know. Nevertheless, sounds like the library does need important message to get liric lines working. 

Thanks again.


----------



## ansthenia

From everything I've heard I'm getting this - at lower dynamics it sounds very lovely and the legato transitions are nice. At higher dynamics sounds rather synthy and has a kinda muddled legato transition sound.


----------



## Batrawi

ok guys, guys, guys, GUAAAAYZZ...... *LISTEN TO ME!!* 

Legatos!

In a desperate hope for a last chance that might likely improve the legato sound for this library, I would kindly ask all of you who own the library to please try the following and report back to us what your final thoughts are (coupled with any simple examples would be highly appreciate):

1-Load only 1 divisi section (say for ex. Violins 1A)
2-turn off Auto-Divisi
3-turn off all onboard Fx/ERs/IRs/Reverb or what so ever...
4-turn off the "Auto" button above "LegSpeed-Mode"
5-dial the "LegSpeed-Mode" knob all the way down
6-dial the "Trans Spd" knob all the way down
7-(optional/warning: only for freaks who can get their hands dirty any time!) in addition to all of the above click on the patch wrench icon to go under the hood and apply the "Pixelpoet trick" posted *here*
...this might look like a duplication of some of the steps you already applied on the GUI above, but trust me, sometimes it might give you an extra degree of control, so it's worth the try

Now, off to work if you want to help the poor guys here like me who can't yet make their decision because how skeptical they are regarding the legato of this library.

Thanks in advance. Awaiting your contributions


----------



## dxmachina

@Duncan Krummel 

Really lovely writing! Was curious if you'd tried gently layering in the solo violin as a first chair?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Batrawi said:


> ok guys, guys, guys, GUAAAAYZZ...... *LISTEN TO ME!!*
> 
> Legatos!
> 
> In a desperate hope for a last chance that might likely improve the legato sound for this library, I would kindly ask all of you who own the library to please try the following and report back to us what your final thoughts are (coupled with any simple examples would be highly appreciate):
> 
> 1-Load only 1 divisi section (say for ex. Violins 1A)
> 2-turn off Auto-Divisi
> 3-turn off all onboard Fx/ERs/IRs/Reverb or what so ever...
> 4-turn off the "Auto" button above "LegSpeed-Mode"
> 5-dial the "LegSpeed-Mode" knob all the way down
> 6-dial the "Trans Spd" knob all the way down
> 7-(optional/warning: only for freaks who can get their hands dirty any time!) in addition to all of the above click on the patch wrench icon to go under the hood and apply the "Pixelpoet trick" posted *here*
> ...this might look like a duplication of some of the steps you already applied on the GUI above, but trust me, sometimes it might give you an extra degree of control, so it's worth the try
> 
> Now, off to work if you want to help the poor guys here like me who can't yet make their decision because how skeptical they are regarding the legato of this library.
> 
> Thanks in advance. Awaiting your contributions



To point 5, 6 and 7:
Thanks for letting people know of my "trick". But I think you don't need it anymore, because the speed sliders should do it. I guess that if the slider is "all the way up" (not down) it's the same as my trick. Up = longer???

By the way, if I remember correctly the speed slider defines the "maximum amount". And the playing-speed-dependent recognition, which is under the hood, alters the transitions inside this range. It's similar to Cinestrings, I guess. Maybe @dxmachina could go more into detail here.


----------



## chapbot

Batrawi said:


> ok guys, guys, guys, GUAAAAYZZ...... *LISTEN TO ME!!*
> 
> Legatos!
> 
> In a desperate hope for a last chance that might likely improve the legato sound for this library, I would kindly ask all of you who own the library to please try the following and report back to us what your final thoughts are (coupled with any simple examples would be highly appreciate):
> 
> 1-Load only 1 divisi section (say for ex. Violins 1A)
> 2-turn off Auto-Divisi
> 3-turn off all onboard Fx/ERs/IRs/Reverb or what so ever...
> 4-turn off the "Auto" button above "LegSpeed-Mode"
> 5-dial the "LegSpeed-Mode" knob all the way down
> 6-dial the "Trans Spd" knob all the way down
> 7-(optional/warning: only for freaks who can get their hands dirty any time!) in addition to all of the above click on the patch wrench icon to go under the hood and apply the "Pixelpoet trick" posted *here*
> ...this might look like a duplication of some of the steps you already applied on the GUI above, but trust me, sometimes it might give you an extra degree of control, so it's worth the try
> 
> Now, off to work if you want to help the poor guys here like me who can't yet make their decision because how skeptical they are regarding the legato of this library.
> 
> Thanks in advance. Awaiting your contributions


LOL I actually thought about this and wondered if it would help my new purchase sound any better. Problem is I don't really feel like reprogramming something I've just paid $549 for.


----------



## Batrawi

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> To point 5, 6 and 7:
> Thanks for letting people know of my "trick". But I think you don't need it anymore, because the speed sliders should do it. I guess that if the slider is "all the way up" (not down) it's the same as my trick.
> 
> By the way, if I remember correctly the speed slider defines the "maximal amount". And the playing-speed-dependent recognition, which is under the hood, alters the transitions in this range. It's similar to Cinestrings, I guess. Maybe @dxmachina could go more into detail here.


shhhhh🤫 just let people try and report back. by the way as I mentioned in step 7, this trick might grant an extra control even if the GUI already provides an easy solution.. I tried it on some libraries that has this on their GUI and your trick still made a differnce!


----------



## Vik

dzilizzi said:


> The demos that everyone usually loves, I just am nope. Not my sound. Just don't like it at all.


I know what you mean, I've had to go back to the Audiobro site and compare the sound quality in their demo videos with some of the examples here. Right now I checked the Shorts and Mics video, and the sound quality is generally very good, but some of the examples here may have been converted several times, or been uploaded in a format that came out of the Soundcloud conversion with very reduced quality... even the newly uploaded files from Shane (thanks, Shane!!) sound surprsingly unconvincing – I am familiar with several of these libraries and own a couple of them, and know they are capable of sounding much better than this. Regarding these files there's also the fact that two of these libraries have no vibrato control, so just by listening to the first long, high note, they sound very different from each other; one is rather soaring and the other has no vibrato. 

String libraries contain so many nuances, and there's a difference between bouncing at 44.1 vs 48, and if one is uploading something to Soundcloud that already is converted/compressed once, and Soundcloud processes these files, the end result can be quite awful. Should we trust that these libraries actually sound this way, they wouldn't have all the customers they have. Something is wrong somewhere, but there are so many things that affect the end result, like eg the setting for the summing engine (which in Logic should be at 64-bit), so it's hard to find out what it is that has reduced the sound quality in several of these examples.


----------



## Batrawi

chapbot said:


> I don't really feel like reprogramming something I've just paid $549 for


you REALLY need to reprogram something* you've just paid $549 for*


----------



## novaburst

Dopplereffect said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> So I bought MSS and tried tinckering a bit with it today. Jeezes, this is one comprehensive library!
> 
> I couldn't resist to try my hand at a snippet of Schindler's List.
> 
> Please, please bear in mind I'm just an amateur.



Nice piece, thanks for posting , that was nice to listen to


----------



## Evans

Vik said:


> String libraries contain so many nuances, and there's a difference between bouncing at 44.1 vs 48, and if one is uploading something to Soundcloud that already is converted/compressed once, and Soundcloud processes these files, the end result can be quite awful. Should we trust that these libraries actually sound this way, they wouldn't have all the customers they have.


This is fair, but it's likely that many of the other libraries we're hearing in direct comparison are similarly undergoing the same ugly processes. In the least, there's (likely) equal footing.


----------



## lettucehat

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.
> 
> 
> [/SPOILER]


Thank you, your posts are the most helpful so far. Much like the BSS thread after its release, there's a lot of words being thrown around about different styles, expressivity, some people hate molto vibrato or accuse others of only liking legato if it's hyper-romantic like Con Moto or CSS... this comparison shows that there is already plenty of variation in character between libraries, and people's issues with this library, or BSS, are not simply reducible to different strokes for different folks. CineStrings and SCS are of the 'flatter' variety and do really nicely here.



Evans said:


> This is fair, but it's likely that many of the other libraries we're hearing in direct comparison are similarly undergoing the same ugly processes. In the least, there's (likely) equal footing.


It's funny, the BSS thread went through this little discussion too! "It's the audio player / internet compression" Cmon people. The user demos are getting better as we go, it's simply programming and a lack of familiarity.


----------



## dzilizzi

Vik said:


> I know what you mean, I've had to go back to the Audiobro site and compare the sound quality in their demo videos with some of the examples here. Right now I checked the Shorts and Mics video, and the sound quality is generally very good, but some of the examples here may have been converted several times, or been uploaded in a format that came out of the Soundcloud conversion with very reduced quality... even the newly uploaded files from Shane (thanks, Shane!!) sound surprsingly unconvincing – I am familiar with several of these libraries and own a couple of them, and know they are capable of sounding much better than this. Regarding these files there's also the fact that two of these libraries have no vibrato control, so just by listening to the first long, high note, they sound very different from each other; one is rather soaring and the other has no vibrato.
> 
> String libraries contain so many nuances, and there's a difference between bouncing at 44.1 vs 48, and if one is uploading something to Soundcloud that already is converted/compressed once, and Soundcloud processes these files, the end result can be quite awful. Should we trust that these libraries actually sound this way, they wouldn't have all the customers they have. Something is wrong somewhere, but there are so many things that affect the end result, like eg the setting for the summing engine (which in Logic should be at 64-bit), so it's hard to find out what it is that has reduced the sound quality in several of these examples.


Sorry, I was talking about CSS. Just not a fan. 


Back to MSS, some of these demos get a little buzzy to me. I'm wondering if that is from layered close mic vibrato? I rarely hear it in SSS demos, but they are rarely close mic'd. Is there any way to fix this? I should add the caveat that I am listening computer speakers and not fancy monitors or good headphones.


----------



## biomuse

dxmachina said:


> @Duncan Krummel
> 
> Really lovely writing! Was curious if you'd tried gently layering in the solo violin as a first chair?


Lovely sequencing! But definitely not Duncan's composition...


----------



## rampant

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.
> 
> There's also a secret fifth contender



Hm, I would say #2 was probably my favourite. #3 really surprised me: it sounded very bumpy and stop-start. #4 I thought sounded like Finale's old General MIDI violin -- it had that same sort of super exaggerated molto vibrato. Which also surprised me, because I have and love that library. #5 sounded like LASS, but a few note transitions seemed a little bumpy.



Spoiler



I wonder if the crossfades on MSS need a little finessing from Audiobro to make the transitions a little smoother across dynamic layers? Or perhaps some under-the-hood user editing so to limit the range of CC-1 so it doesn't reach the fortissimo, and could allow for a little more granular control over dynamics?



We can discuss for days or multiple pages -- and apparently have done -- about what constitutes 'a' legato, or the 'right' legato, or the 'best' legato, or if we should be using legato as much as we do... Well, I'm not a string player. The directors I work with are not string players. I would hazard a guess that most film-going audiences are not string players, either. I am not good enough, or experienced enough, or working on large enough projects to be concerned about recording real ensembles. So to me, all of this legato discussion is largely, and somewhat pointlessly, academic.

My concerns are much more rooted in the real world constraints of time and, dare I say, composer laziness. Does a library give me a good sound that I -- and, arguably more importantly, the director and/or producers -- like and find to be appropriate and suitable to the cue? Do I have to spend ten times longer tickling the MIDI CC data to get a good sound than I do actually writing notes?

If the answer to the first is yes, and the answer to the second is no; then, to me, that would be a good sample library!


----------



## Russell Anderson

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.
> 
> There's also a secret fifth contender




Wow, really nice test. You got me hard with this one. My preferences were, in order, for various reasons not including the modwheel (room sound and instrument tone and playing style): 

3 1 4 2 5. 

First, because it's most relevant to this thread, I wanted to say that MSS actually made a great showing in this example. The only example I thought fell flat was #5 for lack of nearly enough vibrato for my taste. The differences in my preference were pretty small, each library brought points of clear pleasure and some things I wasn't as fond of - that's samples for you. The legato in MSS is a little unclear compared to the others still but I was able to hear the kind of character I was wanting to hear from it, and in context with itself it sounded really quite good and the dynamics work was great - this was a great sounding example to my ears. Congrats and thank you for bringing it out. Great test. 

I was most surprised by #1 and #4; the fact that they came so close when I was so biased versus #1, by name, really surprised me here, but they were close for me and it took many listens to decide my preference; and the fact that you did... what you did, with that secret 5th library... You fooled me wonderfully.



Spoiler: My Answers, with some spoilers



1. SCS (lmao...)
2. MSS (I honestly was stuck between this and #5 for MSS vs. what I thought was Cinesamples, but ended up preferring the sound of #2 and honestly half of the reason I guessed MSS for this slot was because I wanted it to be better than Cinesamples /bias -- but this example sounds quite good
3. Con Moto - unmistakable balls. Although I did have Con Moto as 4 for a bit in the very beginning. So mostly unmistakable.
4. Afflatus. Afflatus wasn't even in this TEST YOU FOOLED ME so much.
5. Cinesamples.


Very fun! Thanks again!


----------



## biomuse

@SHANE TURNER and @Duncan Krummel - Thank you for these comparisons, which provide a great sense of the tones available.

But here's the thing: although this thread has been focused recently on legato patches, I hear places in these pieces where MSS has tools which were not used but which would potentially add a great deal to the results.

For example, MSS' Ostinato tool could be used to assemble nearly all of the middle line in Shane's piece; First chair or Intuition patch added to the melody line would add definition; the mix could be more Close mic heavy, which might flatter in a way similar to Spitfire.

I realize the comparison is not, then, apples to apples in the sense of process, but it may be that apples is not what we're comparing - or really trying to compare - here.

P.S. I haven't purchased MSS yet or I'd give it a go myself. LASS2 owner.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

dxmachina said:


> @Duncan Krummel
> 
> Really lovely writing! Was curious if you'd tried gently layering in the solo violin as a first chair?


Thank you!

I hadn’t yet, but I had played with them on their own and they have a gorgeous tone to them. And, I mean, if YOU’RE suggesting I layer them for this example, I guess that’s gospel 

I’ll add a FC version when I have a moment!

@biomuse, not sure if you mean this per se, but it's definitely my own.

Edit:

For consistency, here's the link again. I've added solos as first chairs, lowered the transition speed again (50% of default roughly), and opted for only Section A in each part. This, to my ears, is quite a nice chamber strings option.









MSS Demos


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


----------



## Batrawi

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I guess that if the slider is "all the way up" (not down) it's the same as my trick. Up = longer???


it says legato _"speed". _So logically speaking (i could be wrong), you increase the speed when driving the knob up and decrease the speed when driving the knob down


----------



## RonV

Duncan Krummel said:


> I'll edit my prior posts to reflect this, but here are the same demos I posted before with new MIDI CC data and settings, as well as Intuition patch versions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I decided to use close and stage mics now (close and decca on intuition), and I actually lowered the legato transition volume, speed, and then shaved about 3-5% off of the brightness dial.


Some of these sound really nice on my Sennheiser phones! The con sord with verb is lush. But of course, the writing of that little segment is very nice, and shows again that the part writing is the number one ingredient of sound.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Duncan Krummel said:


> I'll edit my prior posts to reflect this, but here are the same demos I posted before with new MIDI CC data and settings, as well as Intuition patch versions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I decided to use close and stage mics now (close and decca on intuition), and I actually lowered the legato transition volume, speed, and then shaved about 3-5% off of the brightness dial.


Sorry for the long post.

Wonderful job. MSS is starting to come home here, the dynamics work here really, really improved the sound. I'm really not so displeased by the violin and cello in the intuition patch example, but the way the room sound/instrument resonance just dies after the notes stop is part of what makes it sound strange. The timbres are also different from the legato samples, for better and worse, depending on the notes. There's maybe some flexibility for you, there. Specifically on the little quick flourishes in the... cellos? Violas? Towards the end of the phrases I mean, like at 00:05, those transitions seem like a good spot for Intuition to shine, but there the timbre seems to suffer in the Intuition patch and vibrato seems to fall off. Maybe there's something that can be done about it; for one thing the dynamics may be kind of loud in the example of that patch - if they were lowered and volume was boosted instead, specifically for the middle voices I'm hearing mostly, they may achieve a nice, darker sound. The Legato samples' timbre was more pleasurable at that spot at 0:05 but the quick note transitions leading into the end of the phrase weren't as clear.

Especially with the reverb imo, MSS sounds pretty nice here overall. Still not [yet!?] quite my favorite library for this setting, but it actually makes a good showing here, I'd even say, at some points, very strong, especially in the beginning (I'm thinking mostly of Standard) and a great improvement over post-release user demos. I bet it can get even better with more time spent working with the library, of course. 

The one thing that keeps it from really shining fantastically is that the legato transitions are still tending to sound crossfaded to me, they're just too smooth to be realistic fingered or bowed legato, which _is_ possible to get with samples - *perhaps* with these samples even as they are. I'm wondering, if you keep the transition volume as it is, but boost the transition speed at times, even dramatically, how it sounds to you? For spots like at 0:28, that's a fingering spot and it needs to be instantaneous like fingers coming down on a string. You can try + share if you want, I'd be more than down to hear the result. But with the dynamic control here and the way the library is _sounding_, minus those transitions, it's really growing on me. Very warm, pretty string sound. I'd personally experiment with kicking down the brightness even further on the violin as it's approaching the high A (I think) after the middle as that is the only other part that's sticking out to me as unnatural. The whole sound itself is quite lush - just the standard patch, none of the sul tasto/sul pont are my favorite, that standard patch is soft and smooth. I just need some more abrupt legato.

Not all of the legato transitions sound bad this way, but some show more than others. In spots where I should be hearing fingers falling on the fingerboard I'm getting something between bowed transitions and crossfades, and I think if anything contributes to people talking about "synth-like", that alone is the culprit right there. Figure that part out and this library really sounds lovely.



RonV said:


> But of course, the writing of that little segment is very nice, and shows again that the part writing is the number one ingredient of sound.


Agreed. Very nice bit of music, very homey. Kudos to you Duncan, and thanks again for the post.


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> At this point, I'm settled with the perfectly predictable conclusion that a library this deep isn't instantly plonkable. In that light, as much as I appreciate the early adopters showing us their early plonkings, i think I'm really interested in hearing what people come up with after having given it some time and thought.


Thanks for the feedback. Wish you good luck with how the legato improves over time. Maybe it needs some time like good wine


----------



## biomuse

Duncan Krummel said:


> @biomuse, not sure if you mean this per se, but it's definitely my own.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


My astonished apologies, Duncan. You so utterly embodied Williams lyricism there that I actually fooled myself into feeling nostalgic for a short piece I'd never heard before.


----------



## Denkii

I don't understand a lot of the negativity. Sounds good to me, including legato. Con sord is really nice, too.
There are a ton of bad demos for every other library that we compare this one to as well, including CSS and we can all agree that no single demo is the benchmark for an entire library or every genre/play style etc.

Also I can't stop thinking that there seem to be a lot of people who say legato when they are thinking of portamento ONLY and they just use it synonymously.

This is not a library for someone who loves the usual Air over the top baked in room so of course that crowd is understandably displeased.
In my opinion this library gets less credits in here than it deserves. There's a ton of content in it that no one talks about and that you couldn't (or would not want to) compare to other all-in-one-strings-libraries.

I don't know...just seems strange to me. It feels extremely selective to me. If it were a different dev/library then we would hear "it's just a different color and I love adding it to my pallette" more often. The price argument doesn't count if you compare the content with regards to what you had to buy in order to substitute something like CSS to reach the same amount of content.

Even without counting those who prefer wet libraries, there seem to be some who had disproportionate expectations that couldn't be met (by this and probably any other Library) and now take it out on a product that is very good and offers way more than what is discussed in here.


----------



## molemac

Casiquire said:


> I think it sounds fine, but the dynamic feels way too loud. Both how loud they're mixed and the dynamic layer being used


FYI The dynamics on all my examples and the one that Boris used were below 50 (out of 127) . The overal loud relative volume was to be able to hear the detail of the strings


----------



## borisb2

ansthenia said:


> From everything I've heard I'm getting this - at lower dynamics it sounds very lovely and the legato transitions are nice. At higher dynamics sounds rather synthy and has a kinda muddled legato transition sound.


yep .. thats my conclusion as well - 

and I suppose that wont change after givng it some thought and time


----------



## Ryan Fultz

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.
> 
> There's also a secret fifth contender
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Answers
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Cinestrings
> 2. MSS Sul Tasto (extended)
> 3. Con Moto
> 4. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 5. MSS standard legato articulation
> 
> For the Sul Tasto, I tried to replicate the settings as much as possible, though I think the legato times are a bit different. Also, there's no vibration knob in the extended legato. Once again, auto divisi is disabled.



Damn, for me it wasn't even close how much I prefered 5 over everything else. Followed by 4,2,3,1 where 1 was an instant "I don't think anything will sound worse than this" and the middle 3 being very close shades of each other in what I would look for.

Thanks a ton for the follow up, this was extremely helpful.



Spoiler: Spoiler



This makes my purchasing decisions much more difficult in the coming week or two. I had no need for MSS to be good for this sound, but this really puts it in competition with some other stuff I wasn't really looking at it for.

Interesting to see Con Moto jump up a bit and and SCS also feel much better to my ears, goes to show what a good hall can add and how important each mic can be for the overall tone.

Also interesting with the cinesamples one, I typically love the cinesamples sound whenever I hear a friend of mine use the brass or the strings in stuff, but this kind of exposure shows how much context really matters.


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> FYI The dynamics on all my examples and the one that Boris used were below 50 (out of 127) . The overal loud relative volume was to be able to hear the detail of the strings


true .. although I have to agree, lowering the dynamics further (as in my second version) it does improve the overall intimate character (as its meant to be for that piece anyway)


----------



## Hans Adamson

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


Any chance you could post the violin chart with slurs drawn in to show where the bow changes are meant to be?


----------



## jamwerks

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples...


Thanks for this! I'd say #5, #4, #3, #1, #2.
Imo the First Violins are about 3 db too soft, and Contrabasses 3 db too loud, and all needed some more CC massaging. Is #1 SCS? There's not enough vibrato here and SCS can easily sound bad if you don't dial in the vibrato.

What are the different libraries used?


----------



## Russell Anderson

@Duncan Krummel , I just got your updated link - it sounds even better. The legato on the melody line, I suppose predictably with the first chair, was more defined, and the piece sounded lovely. I'm curious how it'll sound after a few more passes over - honestly it takes hours to get a feel for how libraries behave with the modwheel and this one has even more parameters to worry about; I mentioned earlier it took me at least 10 hours with SCS to start feeling really good about things, I'd expect even longer for MSS. Your chamber-sized ensemble with first-chairs sounds gorgeous, really, I'm wowed by the sound here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2yh70erx...=MSS+Standard+Section+A+Only+++FC+w:+Verb.wav

That is a fantastic sound. The legato is much improved by the recent changes. Nicely done, to you and also to Audiobro. I'm going to be that stickler still! and say, can we get the fingered legato _even more_ fingery? I still hear room for improvement in tighter transitions. Some are probably rolling their eyes, but come on - fingered legato is fingered legato. SCS and Voyage are _slaying_ the fingered legato. MSS is sounding LOVELY, don't get me wrong!

_taps hood of the library_
That's a great cat, right there. Takes a petting like no problem.



Denkii said:


> I don't understand a lot of the negativity.


I hear what you're saying, and I don't disagree there are plenty of bad demos for every library. I'm trying to be careful about $550-800 is all. To my ears, the legato has been too slow for a believable fingered legato and I think the real thing sounds better. Not like I'm trying to compare samples to a live player, overall, but the parts of the live player that can be sampled - that's what I'm wanting. Fingered legato sounds good, and so does everything else, that's why live players practice. When it doesn't capture that reality it's just not as pleasing, similar to why live players practice. I think there's a majority of forthcomingly patient, good-willed curiosity and criticism about this library, and plenty of open-armed early-adopterss. I'm one of the people on the fence about it, but I don't think I'm in the minority about wanting to like it because there _is_ so much to like.


----------



## Casiquire

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.
> 
> There's also a secret fifth contender
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Answers
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Cinestrings
> 2. MSS Sul Tasto (extended)
> 3. Con Moto
> 4. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 5. MSS standard legato articulation
> 
> For the Sul Tasto, I tried to replicate the settings as much as possible, though I think the legato times are a bit different. Also, there's no vibration knob in the extended legato. Once again, auto divisi is disabled.



MSS holds up really well here, wow. Cinestrings holds its own well here too. Actually SCS was the only real disappointment to my ears. The MSS sul tasto is gorgeous. Are those portamentos controllable?


----------



## biomuse

Casiquire said:


> MSS holds up really well here, wow. Cinestrings holds its own well here too. Actually SCS was the only real disappointment to my ears. The MSS sul tasto is gorgeous. Are those portamentos controllable?


LOL SCS was my runaway favorite, and I want to see how much MSS can be made to sound like SCS (my suspicion is: quite a bit more than it does here).


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

SHANE TURNER said:


> OK. I redid my examples, in different order. This time in every example, the room (or tree) is set to 0db and close mics are set down a few db. I added a touch of a gentle sloped high shelf centered at 20k (maag air) and a bit of Seventh Heaven at -7db on the master.
> 
> There's also a secret fifth contender
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Answers
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Cinestrings
> 2. MSS Sul Tasto (extended)
> 3. Con Moto
> 4. Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 5. MSS standard legato articulation
> 
> For the Sul Tasto, I tried to replicate the settings as much as possible, though I think the legato times are a bit different. Also, there's no vibration knob in the extended legato. Once again, auto divisi is disabled.



Got 4 out of 5. :emoji_astonished: Had no idea what was the second so i guess CSS. Con Moto is easy and that has to do with expression as you know. So is MSS with that not so legato legato(does sound better after massaging thou). Recognized SCS from the pervious post cause it sounded like this one handled the arp. better than others(nice find). Similar scenario with Cinestrings that i heard before(nice chamber sound i thought). So i guess these test are useful after all. Thanks for that.
Shane, what's your take on the expanded legatos? Do they suffer from the same problem as the main library? That i would really like to know. I didn't hear any problem here mind you. Also, do they offer the same variations? Gliss, portamento, normal and accent? Thanks.


----------



## molemac

dzilizzi said:


> This is the first time I've heard CSS exposed that I've liked it. I normally don't get all the love for it as most demos, including the ones in this thread, sound bad to me. Fortunately, I recently bought BS and thought that sounded good as well. SCS didn't sound so good, which is surprising to me.


It’s funny I love the idea of SCS and for somethings its great but I can never get it to work that well . I like smaller string sections because that is what I am vlucky to use in recording sessions (abbey rd, the old Angel, Air , British Grove) (rarely more than 20 players these days) so it gives you a much better idea of what you are aiming for and creates more detail. It just occasionally sounds like they play too much on the string that the note is written on rather than going up the fretboard (nice option in DSS) and so there is a harshness. More players hides that on other libraries but you sacrifice detail and it creates a more Hollywood sound that restricts emotion and intimacy and isn’t what I am going for. DSS is another good option but the legatos cant cut it either. As for CSS , I agree I don’t like it exposed but it is definitely the best we have at legato. By the way I am a violin player so please no comments about fingered legato and not slurring a bar etc . Call it what you want but at the moment we dont have a string sample library that can replicate playing a tune like this. Here is an example of the real thing as a comparison . Listen to the violins at 1:10 and 2:25 on .



Not having arealistic legato also restricts the kind of string writing we do in a daw Because the idea in your head is hard to achieve. Started using staffpad which is great for liberating worrying about legato and articulations and enables more use of melodic imagination. I dont think JW would have been able to write this without a pen and paper, can you imagine him presenting a CSS version and saying dont worry it will sound much better with the real thing.I am waiting to be proved wrong however that is why I am pushing this.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I hadn’t yet, but I had played with them on their own and they have a gorgeous tone to them. And, I mean, if YOU’RE suggesting I layer them for this example, I guess that’s gospel
> 
> I’ll add a FC version when I have a moment!
> 
> @biomuse, not sure if you mean this per se, but it's definitely my own.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> For consistency, here's the link again. I've added solos as first chairs, lowered the transition speed again (50% of default roughly), and opted for only Section A in each part. This, to my ears, is quite a nice chamber strings option.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


Thank you, wonderful demo! MSS sounds really good here. I prefer the version with the smaller divisi section. And I think this makes it a "fairer" comparison, because CSS also has smaller sections.

Would it be possible to share the score (just for making comparisons)?


----------



## Casiquire

borisb2 said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Wish you good luck with how the legato improves over time. Maybe it needs some time like good wine


The legatos don't need to improve, the users do. I thought I was pretty clear in that point, and given how one user has already shown how much of a huge improvement comfort with the library can yield, i think i can return your sass back to you because i have more than enough of my own lmao the legato sounds great to me in a growing number of examples with the tastos turning into a real standout


----------



## Raphioli

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I hadn’t yet, but I had played with them on their own and they have a gorgeous tone to them. And, I mean, if YOU’RE suggesting I layer them for this example, I guess that’s gospel
> 
> I’ll add a FC version when I have a moment!
> 
> @biomuse, not sure if you mean this per se, but it's definitely my own.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> For consistency, here's the link again. I've added solos as first chairs, lowered the transition speed again (50% of default roughly), and opted for only Section A in each part. This, to my ears, is quite a nice chamber strings option.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


I definitely prefer the Section A only version over any other versions of MSS.
Thanks for this!


----------



## Russell Anderson

I'm a little biased as I prefer chamber stuff, to larger ensembles - and the recent divisi + firstchair sample by @Duncan Krummel sounds wonderful in this regard - but the note transitions are so silky, I want to hear them a little more and a little more quickly. I'm hoping it's a matter of taste, and that I just want faster note transitions (assuming folks are slowing them down) and possibly also to increase the transition volume a little bit. I'm actually sort of with @Casiquire here; I'm still thinking there's a ways to go for my own satisfaction, and that that distance between me and contentment with MSS' sound is already built into the library, it's just up to the users who are currently submitting demos who may be settling into their own preferences. Which, if true, speaks to the awesomeness of this library. If people are still going to continue being unsatisfied and they're going after the same thing I am and have made the changes that I've been observing in recent demos and I'm also sometimes asking for (assuming they're not already being done and I've just misunderstood), well, then darn, but this really is ultimately a good sound. Plus there's all of that stuff in this library that isn't legato... A whole bunch of it.

The dry sound is also very nice. I'm still solidly on the fence about this library. I've been back and forth about it, but I think the solution to my issues is pretty much the same as always: I just need to make more money. I really do like this library. CSS and Voyage are also awesome, but having to pick between them seems kind of... pointless, besides the obvious financial burden. They do different things. Ensemble size, dryness, extended technique, realism, fingered legato clarity, it all matters, and none of them bring it all, although they each come really close. I'm fanboying for Voyage pretty hard right now but I have yet to see that it's actually the "end-all-be-all library" (even putting aside my bias for chamber ensembles)

The other, also reasonable side of me says that none of them is going to make me a better musician and to want after each of them is nothing but gluttony for libraries; and with that, I'd probably better just get rid of my computer entirely or something... :D Nothing is a hard right or wrong in this regard, I think, and there are merits to either moral position. I need to make a lot more money anyway. Maybe this is a good goal to set.


----------



## ansthenia

I'm starting to feel like the biggest problem with this release is simply the default values of the legato settings.


----------



## dts_marin

Excessive CSS loyalty and bad premature demos deserve a price hike. You should post demos only after the promotion has ended.


----------



## Denkii




----------



## turnerofwheels

jamwerks said:


> Thanks for this! I'd say #5, #4, #3, #1, #2.
> Imo the First Violins are about 3 db too soft, and Contrabasses 3 db too loud, and all needed some more CC massaging. Is #1 SCS? There's not enough vibrato here and SCS can easily sound bad if you don't dial in the vibrato.
> 
> What are the different libraries used?


Check the spoiler button on that post! It's got all the details.


----------



## Eptesicus

dts_marin said:


> Excessive CSS loyalty and bad premature demos deserve a price hike. You should post demos only after the promotion has ended.



I don't really understand the animosity towards CSS being so favoured. It has nothing to do with loyalty.

It is simply because it is really good and most other string libraries cannot match it for legato/lyrical lines

We arent all getting paid by Alex . It is just damn good and we want other libraries to beat it to push things forward in the sample world.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

I have been a bit remiss to post here being a demo maker, but I thought maybe my insight having had the beta library for a while might be of some help.

First just to get the conversation started, well maybe not started being we are at 150 pages now, I thought I would add a piece which is a bit more cinematic than some other demos since some members were asking about that. This is not an official demo! This was mostly done with version 8 beta patches, not sure what the final number was but I don't have the final version yet. BTW doing a demo with beta V.1 and then moving each additional version is a PITA, I stopped at V.8 with this. Considering how hard Andrew and Sebastion work I would presume it quite a bit better now, but you still should be able to get the idea.









MSS XMAS edit 2.mp3


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





So lets talk about legato, I really like MSS legato but is it my go to, nope, I like quite a few others as well. I live on Afflatus and love Jasper's Vista, OT's stuff is terrific across the board and I will continue to use their stuff on a regular basis as well as many other libs (NSS, CSS, Century, LASS, VSL etc) so I have no plans to leave them behind for MSS. That said the tools in MSS are top notch and it does many things no other library can do. If the legato was poor I'd still love the lib but that is far from the case and maybe more important is having "continuity" between all it's articulations. Only recently I received an early version of The Intuition patches and they feel more kinetic than the main library patches so for certain things I will go there. Monophonic legato etc. Being able to do ostinato and runs and go to a good legato that was recorded at the same time is a big deal. Other times I may wish to use other libs just to lose continuity, it works for me both ways.

The killer thing about the library is it can work on a very basic level but you can really go deep if you want to get lost in it. I am still learning things every time I work with it. I learn stuff every time I watch a video. I likened this library as ordering from a menu, or like having a whole bunch of custom libraries available but in one cohesive package. If you had eight different string libraries suddenly available to you how long would it take to get to know them?

One other piece of info, you can agree or not agree with, I try to find the good in a library when picking it or buying it. Taking the time to find fault in a library is spending time finding things you won't use as opposed to finding stuff you will use. Some libraries have issues you can't overcome, thin sound, uneven programming etc (that is harder to discern from demos). Anyway I'll leave this here...

Cheers

Craig


----------



## chapbot

Question for those who also own MSS: how should I adjust legato settings to be more similar to the Intuition patches?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

biomuse said:


> My astonished apologies, Duncan. You so utterly embodied Williams lyricism there that I actually fooled myself into feeling nostalgic for a short piece I'd never heard before.


Not a problem in the slightest! If anything, I'm grateful, though I'm sure there's always the possibility that I've mistakenly gotten very close to quoting something I've never actually heard before.


----------



## Eptesicus

Craig Sharmat said:


> I have been a bit remiss to post here being a demo maker, but I thought maybe my insight having had the beta library for a while might be of some help.
> 
> First just to get the conversation started, well maybe not started being we are at 150 pages now, I thought I would add a piece which is a bit more cinematic than some other demos since some members were asking about that. This is not an official demo! This was mostly done with version 8 beta patches, not sure what the final number was but I don't have the final version yet. BTW doing a demo with beta V1 and then moving each additional version is a PITA, I stopped at V8 with this. Considering how hard Andrew and Sebastion work I would presume it quite a bit better now, but you still should be able to get the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS XMAS edit 2.mp3
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So lets talk about legato, I really like MSS legato but is it my go to, nope, I like quite a few others as well. I live on Afflatus and love Jasper's Vista, OT's stuff is terrific across the board and I will continue to use their stuff on a regular basis as well as many other libs (CSS, Century, LASS, VSL etc) so I have no plans to leave them behind for MSS. That said the tools in MSS are top notch and it does many things no other library can do. If the legato was poor I'd still love the lib but that is far from the case and maybe more important is having "continuity" between all it's articulations. Only recently I received an early version of The Intuition patches and they feel more kinetic than the main library patches so for certain things I will go there. Monophonic legato etc. Being able to do ostinato and runs and go to a good legato that was recorded at the same time is a big deal. Other times I may wish to use other libs just to lose continuity, it works for me both ways.
> 
> The killer thing about the library is it can work on a very basic level but you can really go deep if you want to get lost in it. I am still learning things every time I work with it. I learn stuff every time I watch a video. I likened this library as ordering from a menu, or like having a whole bunch of custom libraries available but in one cohesive package. If you had eight different string libraries suddenly available to you how long would it take to get to know them?
> 
> One other piece of info, you can agree or not agree with, I try to find the good in a library when picking it or buying it. Taking the time to find fault in a library is spending time finding things you won't use as opposed to finding stuff you will use. Some libraries have issues you can't overcome, thin sound, uneven programming etc (that is harder to discern from demos). Anyway I'll leave this here...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Craig



It is certainly one of the most comprehensive string libraries (if not the most?). The amount of content included is crazy.

I think we are all looking for that holy grail library that is the absolute best at everything . We might all be waiting a long time.


----------



## molemac

Hans Adamson said:


> Any chance you could post the violin chart with slurs drawn in to show where the bow changes are meant to be?


Basically every 4 note phrase is slurred (which I couldn’t achieve with the legato samples btw and had to cheat using different arts except for CSS)


----------



## bvaughn0402

Eptesicus said:


> It is certainly one of the most comprehensive string libraries (if not the most?). The amount of content included is crazy.
> 
> I think we are all looking for that holy grail library that is the absolute best at everything . We might all be waiting a long time.


I was thinking about this today ... and I'm sure this analogy has been used before ...

But if I bought a guitar, why would I be upset if a Les Paul didn't sound like a Tele? It's not supposed to. I keep wanting the "holy grail" string library, but each has its own approach, sound, strengths, AND weaknesses. That just makes it an instrument.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Sounds like the Intuition legato is smoother, am i dreaming this? I'm too tired now...


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Russell Anderson said:


> I bet it can get even better with more time spent working with the library, of course.


I want to point out, as well, that I've only been making quick edits (5-10 minutes) with a mouse to draw in new curves. Work is keeping me very busy, so I'm only able to make quick touch ups. Possibly, probably, unfair to MSS on the whole, but for many of us quick edits are sometimes all we can afford. I think it's valuable to hear it this way, and more so to hear how it's evolved with some quick edits here and there.


----------



## Raphioli

Eptesicus said:


> We arent all getting paid by Alex . It is just damn good and we want other libraries to beat it to push things forward in the sample world.


+100
This is the only reason I personally bring up CSS. And also PS.

If "N" beat the hell out of CSS in lyrical musical lines, I'd bring up "N" in every strings thread


----------



## Russell Anderson

Eptesicus said:


> I think we are all looking for that holy grail library that is the absolute best at everything . We might all be waiting a long time.




I'm kidding! 

Half kidding.

To the point, MSS does a whole load of things. and it does them very well. And what a pricepoint for it; the prize package is really in the standard MSS by itself, and how much you're getting for it - as a newcomer onto the scene buying your first library or someone looking to fill out their collection, MSS seems to have something(s) for everyone and makes, I think at this point, a solid contender with the "current meta" that really ought to be on everyone's radar. I do still hope for maybe an edit of the defaults, at the very least; no "3 IRs active at once" or any of the other struggles that have been overcome so far like phase from low-end stereo width and whatnot.

Also, I'm still wanting to hear some faster fingered-legato transitions. Or maybe with some increased volume. That's my one gripe with this library, and I'm still mostly satisfied with it at this point as simply part of its character. My hope, and suspicion, is that this is possible and just hasn't been done yet because of user taste.

Part of me hopes there is never a library that's the best at everything. We all have our colors to bring, I think it would be a lot less... wonderful if some did just release 'the best', everyone agreed, and that was that. At least then there'd be some more inspired competition to knock them off their pedastal.

@Duncan Krummel 5-10 minute edits, lol. Well, that's heartening. It's sounding amazing, man. I hope you're enjoying the bits of time you're getting to spend using the library, as in, not feeling the dread of regret. It's seeming less and less like that's the response to have about it, although in the beginning, I was thinking that may be a pretty common response.


----------



## Eptesicus

bvaughn0402 said:


> I was thinking about this today ... and I'm sure this analogy has been used before ...
> 
> But if I bought a guitar, why would I be upset if a Les Paul didn't sound like a Tele? It's not supposed to. I keep wanting the "holy grail" string library, but each has its own approach, sound, strengths, AND weaknesses. That just makes it an instrument.



Indeed.

That is what makes it a tricky decision when you already have a few string libraries already.

If i was completely starting out, i would seriously consider MSS as it covers so much content and still sounds pretty good even from its weakest parts (comparatively).


----------



## turnerofwheels

Since people are wondering more about the extended, sordinos etc here's a cue I working on. it is a loopfest aka minimalism.. which IMO makes a person just focus more on anything that changes, especially transitions..

lots of portamento and changing legato times. Also uses the built in room simulator for each section and the full dynamic range of the library.


----------



## dzilizzi

molemac said:


> It’s funny I love the idea of SCS and for somethings its great but I can never get it to work that well . I like smaller string sections because that is what I am vlucky to use in recording sessions (abbey rd, the old Angel, Air , British Grove) (rarely more than 20 players these days) so it gives you a much better idea of what you are aiming for and creates more detail. It just occasionally sounds like they play too much on the string that the note is written on rather than going up the fretboard (nice option in DSS) and so there is a harshness. More players hides that on other libraries but you sacrifice detail and it creates a more Hollywood sound that restricts emotion and intimacy and isn’t what I am going for. DSS is another good option but the legatos cant cut it either. As for CSS , I agree I don’t like it exposed but it is definitely the best we have at legato. By the way I am a violin player so please no comments about fingered legato and not slurring a bar etc . Call it what you want but at the moment we dont have a string sample library that can replicate playing a tune like this. Here is an example of the real thing as a comparison . Listen to the violins at 1:10 and 2:25 on .
> 
> 
> 
> Not having arealistic legato also restricts the kind of string writing we do in a daw Because the idea in your head is hard to achieve. Started using staffpad which is great for liberating worrying about legato and articulations and enables more use of melodic imagination. I dont think JW would have been able to write this without a pen and paper, can you imagine him presenting a CSS version and saying dont worry it will sound much better with the real thing.I am waiting to be proved wrong however that is why I am pushing this.



no buzziness in the real violin. Sounds like a soloist though.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Shane, what's your take on the expanded legatos? Do they suffer from the same problem as the main library? That i would really like to know. I didn't hear any problem here mind you. Also, do they offer the same variations? Gliss, portamento, normal and accent? Thanks.


The only difference I can see is that there is no vibrato control, it basically comes in automatically. Which is interesting, makes it feel slightly more lyrical than the regular library.
Everything else is identical for attacks, etc.


----------



## ChristianM

download full version.


----------



## TintoL

Russell Anderson said:


> I'm kidding!
> 
> Half kidding.
> 
> To the point, MSS does a whole load of things. and it does them very well. And what a pricepoint for it; the prize package is really in the standard MSS by itself, and how much you're getting for it - as a newcomer onto the scene buying your first library or someone looking to fill out their collection, MSS seems to have something(s) for everyone and makes, I think at this point, a solid contender with the "current meta" that really ought to be on everyone's radar. I do still hope for maybe an edit of the defaults, at the very least; no "3 IRs active at once" or any of the other struggles that have been overcome so far like phase from low-end stereo width and whatnot.
> 
> Also, I'm still wanting to hear some faster fingered-legato transitions. Or maybe with some increased volume. That's my one gripe with this library, and I'm still mostly satisfied with it at this point as simply part of its character. My hope, and suspicion, is that this is possible and just hasn't been done yet because of user taste.
> 
> Part of me hopes there is never a library that's the best at everything. We all have our colors to bring, I think it would be a lot less... wonderful if some did just release 'the best', everyone agreed, and that was that. At least then there'd be some more inspired competition to knock them off their pedastal.
> 
> @Duncan Krummel 5-10 minute edits, lol. Well, that's heartening. It's sounding amazing, man. I hope you're enjoying the bits of time you're getting to spend using the library, as in, not feeling the dread of regret. It's seeming less and less like that's the response to have about it, although in the beginning, I was thinking that may be a pretty common response.



Just checking this out. I didn't know this was coming. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I was thinking yesterday this string library can do just about anything except Fx like Stringacche. Coincedently, Stringache went on sale yesterday... This damn internet can read my mind guys! Guess what I'm thinking now Mr.Internet!


----------



## jonnybutter

Denkii said:


> I don't understand a lot of the negativity. Sounds good to me, including legato. Con sord is really nice, too.
> There are a ton of bad demos for every other library that we compare this one to as well, including CSS and we can all agree that no single demo is the benchmark for an entire library or every genre/play style etc.
> 
> Also I can't stop thinking that there seem to be a lot of people who say legato when they are thinking of portamento ONLY and they just use it synonymously.
> 
> This is not a library for someone who loves the usual Air over the top baked in room so of course that crowd is understandably displeased.
> In my opinion this library gets less credits in here than it deserves. There's a ton of content in it that no one talks about and that you couldn't (or would not want to) compare to other all-in-one-strings-libraries.
> 
> I don't know...just seems strange to me. It feels extremely selective to me. If it were a different dev/library then we would hear "it's just a different color and I love adding it to my pallette" more often. The price argument doesn't count if you compare the content with regards to what you had to buy in order to substitute something like CSS to reach the same amount of content.
> 
> Even without counting those who prefer wet libraries, there seem to be some who had disproportionate expectations that couldn't be met (by this and probably any other Library) and now take it out on a product that is very good and offers way more than what is discussed in here.


Agree with this, and would add that all those controls are there for a reason. You need to work to make it do what you want - but the whole point is that you *can* get it to do what you want. This is a very different library to LASS, but it’s a little similar in this way: if you put in the time, you can reap the rewards.


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> The legatos don't need to improve, the users do. ... the legato sounds great to me in a growing number of examples with the tastos turning into a real standout


point taken.. but agree to disagree.

Glad that demos of string sections sound increasingly great with MSS. Well, I just bought that library, this is good news.  (Sorry for sassing 😀) But that doesnt change the fact that with that exposed solo line from Schindlers list MSS struggles a bit. I'm happy to take on notes for improvements, but so far tweaking all settings incl. custom envelope, tweaking vel. dynamic curve, different combos of legato speed (auto off) and legato volume, tweaking rebow etc. I didnt see the overall character changing a lot. In the legato transition the first note tend to release too long for my liking, resulting in a bit blurry sound when exposed. It seems you can't change that (and that behaviour seems to be different in the intuition patches as far as I can see). Playing the same line live with Berlin Strings sounded already more realistic/expressive. Just my opinion.

Not a problem for me. Comprehensivness of MSS is outstanding. For intimate exposed solo lines it probably won't be my go-to - at this point.



Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Sounds like the Intuition legato is smoother, am i dreaming this? I'm too tired now...


have the same feeling



chapbot said:


> Question for those who also own MSS: how should I adjust legato settings to be more similar to the Intuition patches?



would like the answer to that as well



Casiquire said:


> Are those portamentos controllable?


yes (speed is adjustable)


----------



## smoothielova

I just got MSS up and running. After several minutes of noodling, I feel like its the holy grail of strings for me. Everything is just gorgeous that I'm playing through. Outstanding job Audiobro! I'm waiting on the Expanded Legato download and I can't wait!


----------



## Trevor Meier

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I hadn’t yet, but I had played with them on their own and they have a gorgeous tone to them. And, I mean, if YOU’RE suggesting I layer them for this example, I guess that’s gospel
> 
> I’ll add a FC version when I have a moment!
> 
> @biomuse, not sure if you mean this per se, but it's definitely my own.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> For consistency, here's the link again. I've added solos as first chairs, lowered the transition speed again (50% of default roughly), and opted for only Section A in each part. This, to my ears, is quite a nice chamber strings option.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


I really like how this turned out. It’s a nice, detailed sound.

Have you tried with just the soloists? Curious how well they stand up on their own.


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> Ok so here is a sacrligious test , destroying a beautiful piece of music I know , Sorry John W, but if any sample library developpers are watching , this is what we would all like to be able to do with a string library. Play a beautiful solo melody line on violins and make people cry and not reach for the FAKE button. The idea behind this is not to show off any library above another (they all sound unreal and unable to produce the proper real player emotion despite efforts to tweak each one) but to see where MSS can sit in this role. So I have included the midi so someone can do a MSS pass. If anyone can better these with MSS I'm buying. ps I can guess which one people will prefer , no surprises there.


I cannot make it sound exactly like Itzhak Perlman.



There are some challenges in the MSS solo violin to recreating this passage.

Here's some things I noticed / worked around:


A little phasing on a couple notes, almost like I hear two violins instead of one.
Fairly abrupt velocity shifts (big timbral / color changes for each of the four velocities) so I mostly stayed in the lowest of the four and cranked the volume.
A couple notes are "characterful" as they say.
The "Accent" attack sounds nothing like Mr. Perlman's hard fingers changing notes. So I used the "Norm" legato or a new note with norm attack instead.
Around bar 3 I flipped to a short quickly to try to simulate Itzhak's bow change a touch early that almost sounded like a re-attack, so if you see the MSS screen "blink" around 0:24 that's what's happening.

Backing strings are the Ensemble patch from MSS, on the simulated sordino but with the brightness knob turned up quite a bit. The harps are from OT Ark 2 (six harps but who's counting?).

Mics were Close only, with a little of the Perdition convolution. I adjusted the built in high and low EQ levels to warm up the violin a bit.

I did start by trying the Intuition Solo Violin but it didn't offer enough control for me. Lots of "volume jumps" even though I was trying to play evenly, so I quickly moved on to the main interface.


----------



## wilifordmusic

Craig Sharmat said:


> I have been a bit remiss to post here being a demo maker, but I thought maybe my insight having had the beta library for a while might be of some help.
> 
> First just to get the conversation started, well maybe not started being we are at 150 pages now, I thought I would add a piece which is a bit more cinematic than some other demos since some members were asking about that. This is not an official demo! This was mostly done with version 8 beta patches, not sure what the final number was but I don't have the final version yet. BTW doing a demo with beta V.1 and then moving each additional version is a PITA, I stopped at V.8 with this. Considering how hard Andrew and Sebastion work I would presume it quite a bit better now, but you still should be able to get the idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS XMAS edit 2.mp3
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So lets talk about legato, I really like MSS legato but is it my go to, nope, I like quite a few others as well. I live on Afflatus and love Jasper's Vista, OT's stuff is terrific across the board and I will continue to use their stuff on a regular basis as well as many other libs (CSS, Century, LASS, VSL etc) so I have no plans to leave them behind for MSS. That said the tools in MSS are top notch and it does many things no other library can do. If the legato was poor I'd still love the lib but that is far from the case and maybe more important is having "continuity" between all it's articulations. Only recently I received an early version of The Intuition patches and they feel more kinetic than the main library patches so for certain things I will go there. Monophonic legato etc. Being able to do ostinato and runs and go to a good legato that was recorded at the same time is a big deal. Other times I may wish to use other libs just to lose continuity, it works for me both ways.
> 
> The killer thing about the library is it can work on a very basic level but you can really go deep if you want to get lost in it. I am still learning things every time I work with it. I learn stuff every time I watch a video. I likened this library as ordering from a menu, or like having a whole bunch of custom libraries available but in one cohesive package. If you had eight different string libraries suddenly available to you how long would it take to get to know them?
> 
> One other piece of info, you can agree or not agree with, I try to find the good in a library when picking it or buying it. Taking the time to find fault in a library is spending time finding things you won't use as opposed to finding stuff you will use. Some libraries have issues you can't overcome, thin sound, uneven programming etc (that is harder to discern from demos). Anyway I'll leave this here...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Craig


Craig, like what I've heard. One thing I haven't seen in the last 150-ish pages.
What kind of CPU hit are you seeing running MSS as a full section?
Does legato to ostinato to scales etc.. vary on the CPU usage? Are we talking computer killer?
I've always liked the performance versus sound with LASS 2.5 compared to some of my other strings.
--edit, and yes I use the ARC with a pretty full load__

thanks, Steve


----------



## Russell Anderson

Soundbed said:


> I cannot make it sound exactly like Itzhak Perlman.
> 
> 
> 
> There are some challenges in the MSS solo violin to recreating this passage.
> 
> Here's some things I noticed / worked around:
> 
> 
> A little phasing on a couple notes, almost like I hear two violins instead of one.
> Fairly abrupt velocity shifts (big timbral / color changes for each of the four velocities) so I mostly stayed in the lowest of the four and cranked the volume.
> A couple notes are "characterful" as they say.
> The "Accent" attack sounds nothing like Mr. Perlman's hard fingers changing notes. So I used the "Norm" legato or a new note with no attack instead.
> Around bar 3 I flipped to a short quickly to try to simulate Itzhak's bow change a touch early that almost sounded like a re-attack, so if you see the MSS screen "blink" around 0:24 that's what's happening.
> 
> Backing strings are the Ensemble patch from MSS, on the simulated sordino but with the brightness knob turned up quite a bit. The harps are from OT Ark 2 (six harps but who's counting?).
> 
> Mics were Close only, with a little of the Perdition convolution. I adjusted the built in high and low EQ levels to warm up the violin a bit.
> 
> I did start by trying the Intuition Solo Violin but it didn't offer enough control for me. Lots of "volume jumps" even though I was trying to play evenly, so I quickly moved on to the main interface.



Admittedly I was immediately floored by the sample, and realized very quickly that that was because it was Itzhak Perlman. ... anyway

..So I braced myself for what was to come, but despite the problems you mentioned with velocity/phase/duplication, that sound was actually gorgeous. The ultra-delicate exhale of violin sound was really pretty. Yes, I can hear how the library is struggling quite a bit to play such a ludicrously expressive passage, but the tone quality was, to me, shockingly good; you could hear the sound of the horsehair rubbing on the string as if you were right there next to it. God, awesome. That's a really impressive quality that I was not expecting to be even possible out of MSS.

So maybe (like most libraries) not best-suited for that line because of the programming difficulties you faced - to be expected when trying to emulate an actual master on a live instrument, obviously. Let's bring up CSS again - sure, it'd do a good job with the legato transitions probably, but in the end, no library is not going to sound fake trying to emulate a passage played like that with the huge organic gradient of bow speed and vibrato and dynamics. Importantly, the sounds you just pulled out of MSS were gorgeous, and those sounds I don't think you're going to hear out of CSS. Obviously not trying to bash CSS here, but no library is the king of _everything_, and this quiet, delicate, horsehair-on-the-string-2-feet-away sound is something really special. Wow.

Still with the fingered legato, I'm liking your terminology: "hard fingers". Indeed. I don't want to say "snappy", but it's a _very_ clear transition being demonstrated, a "hard" but still smooth and warm transition, and I think @borisb2 is making an agreeable observation about sample release times from the first half of a legato transition. Would like to see something explored with this. And importantly, not to sacrifice the way the library is capable of sounding now, if possible, but just to increase scope of possible legato release tightness achievable from parameters @dxmachina . Even an entirely new parameter dedicated to legato release. I'm completely ignorant about scripting so the amount of work it would take to implement something like that is totally lost on me, I'll just assume a lot. But I think making an adjustment on that specific part of the legato transitions would make a huge difference for all the people like me making comments about the "fuzzy legato".

I want to point out that my maybe endless critiquing of the fingered legato sound is not my only criticism of any string library ever, and in no way do I think this fingered legato bleed makes MSS "not worth buying" - far from it. I wouldn't have purchased probably any string libraries yet if I was so stringent as there are IMO far greater problems with other libraries that are basically ubiquitous. But I think it is an important criticism worth making in MSS' official thread, because for such a good library, this seems like something doable and that would make a really big difference for my ear. The library has so much going for it, and this one little tendency of what is, for many, a very important aspect of the sound, is one of the only things I am hearing that gives me pause about it; and I am rather hard-pressed to find another. That is saying something very good about this library. You mentioned volume jumps in the Intuition patches, @Soundbed, that is one other such thing that may deserve some attention then, but it's still important to hear whether others are facing similar problems. Or whether they're trying to emulate Itzhak Perlman when they do


----------



## Noeticus

Soundbed said:


> I cannot make it sound exactly like Itzhak Perlman.
> 
> 
> 
> There are some challenges in the MSS solo violin to recreating this passage.
> 
> Here's some things I noticed / worked around:
> 
> 
> A little phasing on a couple notes, almost like I hear two violins instead of one.
> Fairly abrupt velocity shifts (big timbral / color changes for each of the four velocities) so I mostly stayed in the lowest of the four and cranked the volume.
> A couple notes are "characterful" as they say.
> The "Accent" attack sounds nothing like Mr. Perlman's hard fingers changing notes. So I used the "Norm" legato or a new note with no attack instead.
> Around bar 3 I flipped to a short quickly to try to simulate Itzhak's bow change a touch early that almost sounded like a re-attack, so if you see the MSS screen "blink" around 0:24 that's what's happening.
> 
> Backing strings are the Ensemble patch from MSS, on the simulated sordino but with the brightness knob turned up quite a bit. The harps are from OT Ark 2 (six harps but who's counting?).
> 
> Mics were Close only, with a little of the Perdition convolution. I adjusted the built in high and low EQ levels to warm up the violin a bit.
> 
> I did start by trying the Intuition Solo Violin but it didn't offer enough control for me. Lots of "volume jumps" even though I was trying to play evenly, so I quickly moved on to the main interface.



I am very, very impressed by this.

So.... How did you do the "molto vibrato" (if I am saying it right) at the end (last note?) of the MSS piece?


----------



## Soundbed

Noeticus said:


> I am very, very impressed by this.
> 
> So.... How did you do the "molto vibrato" (if I am saying it right) at the end (last note?) of the MSS piece?


The final note has that baked into that recorded sample. “Characterful.”


----------



## Craig Sharmat

wilifordmusic said:


> Craig, like what I've heard. One thing I haven't seen in the last 150-ish pages.
> What kind of CPU hit are you seeing running MSS as a full section?
> Does legato to ostinato to scales etc.. vary on the CPU usage? Are we talking computer killer?
> I've always liked the performance versus sound with LASS 2.5 compared to some of my other strings.
> --edit, and yes I use the ARC with a pretty full load__
> 
> thanks, Steve


Hi Steve,

On that piece it is hitting about 25% with a spike to 50%. That said that is a full orch template. The strings on this averages at about 10%. There was a momentary 50% spike. My computer is a 16 core Rack Mount Mac Pro 2019.


----------



## Noeticus

Soundbed said:


> The final note has that baked into that recorded sample. “Characterful.”


Thanks, but I own MSS and I still do not know what that means?

Can you elaborate? Where you using the vibrato control?


----------



## Soundbed

Russell Anderson said:


> Admittedly I was immediately floored by the sample, and realized very quickly that that was because it was Itzhak Perlman. ... uh
> 
> ..So I braced myself for what was to come, but despite the problems you mentioned with velocity/phase/duplication, that sound was actually gorgeous. The ultra-delicate exhale of violin sound was really pretty.
> 
> Maybe not best-suited for that line because of the programming difficulties you faced - to be expected when trying to emulate an actual master on a live instrument, obviously - but that is a really beautiful sound nonetheless that you pulled out of MSS there. Kind of shocking actually even despite some of the user demos that have been posted thus far, despite your mentioned struggles. I'd actually be surprised to hear any other string library sound like that moment right there that MSS just achieved - I know CSS, if treated with the same level of care, would probably sound fantastic in its own way as well, as it's built for the molto that takes place in that sample (but is it built for everything around the molto and the gradient of expressive vibrato? probably no sample library is, anyway, so whatever), but that was by itself also fantastic and I was actually sad the sample stopped when it did, I wanted to hear more of what you were doing with MSS.
> 
> Still with the fingered legato, I'm liking your terminology: "hard fingers". Indeed. I don't want to say "snappy", but it's a _very_ clear transition being demonstrated, a "hard" but still smooth and warm transition, and I think @borisb2 is making an agreeable observation about sample release times from the first half of a legato transition. Would like to see something explored with this. And importantly, not to sacrifice the way the library is capable of sounding now, if possible, but just to increase scope of possible legato release tightness achievable from parameters @dxmachina . Even an entirely new parameter dedicated to legato release. I'm completely ignorant about scripting so the amount of work it would take to implement something like that is totally lost on me, I'll just assume a lot. But I think making an adjustment on that specific part of the legato transitions would make a huge difference for all the people like me making comments about the "fuzzy legato".
> 
> I want to point out that my maybe endless critiquing of the fingered legato sound is not my only criticism of any string library ever, and in no way do I think this fingered legato bleed makes MSS "not worth buying" - far from it. I wouldn't have purchased probably any string libraries yet if I was so stringent as there are IMO far greater problems with other libraries that are hugely popular and have been for a long time. But I think it is a criticism worth making in MSS' official thread, because for such a good library, this seems like something doable and that would make a really big difference for my ear. The library has so much and this one little tendency of the sound is one of the only things I am hearing that gives me pause, and I am rather hard-pressed to find another concern of similar strength about it - that is saying something very good about this library. You mentioned volume jumps in the Intuition patches, @Soundbed, that is one other such thing that may deserve some attention then.


The volume jumps might be limited to the solo violin, not sure. The 4 velocity layers sound pretty distinct.


----------



## Noeticus

I see now that the A note already has this baked in as you say. (I just tested it).


----------



## Soundbed

Noeticus said:


> Thanks, but I own MSS and I still do not know what that means?
> 
> Can you elaborate? Where you using the vibrato control?


Sorry I’m cooking dinner for the fam so apologies for being brief. If you play that note at that velocity you will hear that vibrato. I did nothing to alter it.


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> I cannot make it sound exactly like Itzhak Perlman.
> 
> 
> 
> There are some challenges in the MSS solo violin to recreating this passage.
> 
> Here's some things I noticed / worked around:
> 
> 
> A little phasing on a couple notes, almost like I hear two violins instead of one.
> Fairly abrupt velocity shifts (big timbral / color changes for each of the four velocities) so I mostly stayed in the lowest of the four and cranked the volume.
> A couple notes are "characterful" as they say.
> The "Accent" attack sounds nothing like Mr. Perlman's hard fingers changing notes. So I used the "Norm" legato or a new note with no attack instead.
> Around bar 3 I flipped to a short quickly to try to simulate Itzhak's bow change a touch early that almost sounded like a re-attack, so if you see the MSS screen "blink" around 0:24 that's what's happening.
> 
> Backing strings are the Ensemble patch from MSS, on the simulated sordino but with the brightness knob turned up quite a bit. The harps are from OT Ark 2 (six harps but who's counting?).
> 
> Mics were Close only, with a little of the Perdition convolution. I adjusted the built in high and low EQ levels to warm up the violin a bit.
> 
> I did start by trying the Intuition Solo Violin but it didn't offer enough control for me. Lots of "volume jumps" even though I was trying to play evenly, so I quickly moved on to the main interface.



This sounds fantastic


----------



## Noeticus

Casiquire said:


> This sounds fantastic


I agree!!!


----------



## Russell Anderson

Craig Sharmat said:


> One other piece of info, you can agree or not agree with, I try to find the good in a library when picking it or buying it. Taking the time to find fault in a library is spending time finding things you won't use as opposed to finding stuff you will use. Some libraries have issues you can't overcome, thin sound, uneven programming etc (that is harder to discern from demos). Anyway I'll leave this here...


Had I the money to do so, I would easily now be an owner of MSS after the user demo developments from the past 24 hours. I am in complete agreement with almost everything you said in your post about finding things you do like, about bread and butter and continuity; the main sliver in my mind with MSS, one which is important to me, is one I think *can* be solved, reasonably: realizing Fingered Legato by adjusting or adding adjustability to legato release times into the note they're transitioning into. I would love this library _even more_ if there was some way to adjust it to my own liking without breaking it for other users. It doesn't break the library for me, but it does, like you say, encourage a certain breaking of continuity if I feel encouraged to reach for something else for a legato passage when I could keep working inside of the MSS sound while enjoying the plethora of tools it has available. I've been stoked since Aleatoric + Detune and I've also since learned to be excited about the ostenatos; thanks Performance Samples and my attempts to duplicate them with SCS for teaching me how important recorded round-robin'd transitions were for realism. MSS is a beast. I just... you know. Sorry to be that guy. But _I believe_ in the legato release tightening, on a spiritual level, man.

Anyway, this might be a weird 180, but didn't somebody point out earlier that there was an Envelope graph pertaining to the Legato?

Has anybody messed with that? Because that might be my own personal holy grail when it comes to this library. @Soundbed sorry to ping you especially since you're making dinner, but if you have any idea about that, that may be relevant to your Perlman emulation and to the rest of pretty much everyone who's got MSS on the mind.


----------



## borisb2

Soundbed said:


> I cannot make it sound exactly like Itzhak Perlman.
> 
> 
> 
> There are some challenges in the MSS solo violin to recreating this passage.
> 
> Here's some things I noticed / worked around:
> 
> 
> A little phasing on a couple notes, almost like I hear two violins instead of one.
> Fairly abrupt velocity shifts (big timbral / color changes for each of the four velocities) so I mostly stayed in the lowest of the four and cranked the volume.
> A couple notes are "characterful" as they say.
> The "Accent" attack sounds nothing like Mr. Perlman's hard fingers changing notes. So I used the "Norm" legato or a new note with no attack instead.
> Around bar 3 I flipped to a short quickly to try to simulate Itzhak's bow change a touch early that almost sounded like a re-attack, so if you see the MSS screen "blink" around 0:24 that's what's happening.
> 
> Backing strings are the Ensemble patch from MSS, on the simulated sordino but with the brightness knob turned up quite a bit. The harps are from OT Ark 2 (six harps but who's counting?).
> 
> Mics were Close only, with a little of the Perdition convolution. I adjusted the built in high and low EQ levels to warm up the violin a bit.
> 
> I did start by trying the Intuition Solo Violin but it didn't offer enough control for me. Lots of "volume jumps" even though I was trying to play evenly, so I quickly moved on to the main interface.



sounds great, indeed!


----------



## Craig Sharmat

Russell Anderson said:


> Had I the money to do so, I would easily now be an owner of MSS after the user demo developments from the past 24 hours. I am in complete agreement with almost everything you said in your post about finding things you do like, about bread and butter and continuity; the main sliver in my mind with MSS, one which is important to me, is one I think *can* be solved, reasonably: Legato releases. I would love this library _even more_ if there was some way to adjust it to my own liking without breaking it for other users. It doesn't break the library for me, but it does, like you say, encourage a certain breaking of continuity if I feel encouraged to reach for something else for a legato passage when I could keep working inside of the MSS sound while enjoying the plethora of tools it has available. I've been stoked since Aleatoric + Detune and I've also since learned to be excited about the ostenatos; thanks Performance Samples and my attempts to duplicate them with SCS for teaching me how important recorded round-robin'd transitions were for realism. MSS is a beast. I just... you know. Sorry to be that guy. But _I believe_ in the legato release tightening, on a spiritual level, man.


I am not sure I am following but does this solve it for you?


----------



## Russell Anderson

Craig Sharmat said:


> I am not sure I am following but does this solve it for you?


That's definitely the part of the UI I was thinking of.

Man, I could have just gone and looked it up, it's literally right there. Sorry.

But it would be really good to hear how much control that part of the interface offers over the legato sound - you were one of the demo producers and have used MSS since beta so I assume any qualms you have about the realism of the legato, you've probably already combed through it and reached the extent of the realism that the library allows... _I assume_.

EDIT: Soundbed posted the response I was looking for below. Here's hoping maybe something happens with regard to release times. Beautiful library, and congratulations.


----------



## Soundbed

Russell Anderson said:


> Anyway, this might be a weird 180, but didn't somebody point out earlier that there was an Envelope graph pertaining to the Legato?
> 
> Has anybody messed with that? Because that might be my own personal holy grail when it comes to this library. @Soundbed sorry to ping you especially since you're making dinner, but if you have any idea about that, that may be relevant to your Perlman emulation and to the rest of pretty much everyone who's got MSS on the mind.


Yes I looked at the custom envelope quickly to see if I could get the "hard fingers" Perlman fingered transition sound but all the envelopes looked like they made the transition more gradual, not more instantaneous. I may have missed how to do it if there's a way. Here's a pic from the manual:


----------



## Russell Anderson

Soundbed said:


> Yes I looked at the custom envelope quickly to see if I could get the "hard fingers" Perlman fingered transition sound but all the envelopes looked like they made the transition more gradual, not more instantaneous. I may have missed how to do it if there's a way. Here's a pic from the manual:


Ah, indeed, so it's already set to the minimum then probably and only extends from there. I trust you've already played around with the transition speed of course as well. Yep. I hope something can be done. Sorry for everyone who loves this library as-is, I don't want to get in your way, but I'm not the only one who feels this way and I'm certainly not the only one who does so while really liking this library more and more. If it's possible to tighten up those release times, I would love to see it and I'm not alone.


----------



## soulofsound

Soundbed said:


> Yes I looked at the custom envelope quickly to see if I could get the "hard fingers" Perlman fingered transition sound but all the envelopes looked like they made the transition more gradual, not more instantaneous. I may have missed how to do it if there's a way. Here's a pic from the manual:


I think you may get that with “spikes” in the CC1 data, little irregularities, perhaps placed around note changes I mean that will benefit the natural feel of the performance.


----------



## Craig Sharmat

Russell Anderson said:


> That's definitely the part of the UI I was thinking of.
> 
> Man, I could have just gone and looked it up, it's literally right there. Sorry.
> 
> But it would be really good to hear how much control that part of the interface offers over the legato sound - you were one of the demo producers and have used MSS since beta so I assume any qualms you have about the realism of the legato, you've probably already combed through it and reached the extent of the realism that the library allows... _I assume_.
> 
> I'm very curious to hear your thoughts about that envelope editor, and your thoughts about release times, or the legato in general. Rest assured I'm not trying to justify any preconceptions I have as much as focus some discussion on something I think could make a big difference for the library. Because I like it a lot. Again, I know nothing of scripting, so what lies within the realm of possibility and outside of it is not something I know for sure, but I am guessing that this is something that could actually be improved without huge expenses from the team for labor.


I did not use the envelope editor, though I played with it because, well why not, it did what one might expect. RT's editing is useful depending on speed of passage and it worked but I did not need to use it much, I really am comfortable for most stuff playing or drawing in CC's...If I use RT's to edit I only want to do it once, more is a PITA and not the way I wish to work.

As far as working with the library knowing the extent of what it can do, I am not there yet and I may never be. I learned some new stuff just today so my guess is this can be on an ongoing basis if I want it to be. Most of the time I want to just write and not get into fine editing of controls. Set it and forget it. Others may want to be more technical.


----------



## borisb2

Craig Sharmat said:


> I am not sure I am following but does this solve it for you?





Russell Anderson said:


> But it would be really good to hear how much control that part of the interface offers over the legato sound


I tested these. Unfortunately - unless I did something wrong - it does not affect the legato transition but the actual release of the sound after you released the note. Setting Release to 0 for example resulted in exactly the same (a bit blurred) legato transition, but once you released the last note it instantly would cut off.


----------



## Russell Anderson

soulofsound said:


> I think you may get that with “spikes” in the CC1 data, little irregularities, perhaps placed around note changes I mean that will benefit the natural feel of the performance.


I actually do the same with SCS, although it's less for fingered clarity so much as counteracting the tendency of notes to swell from their attack, as in, they don't have a realistic attack transition volume. So I'm often leaving headroom for pushing the modwheel during transitionsso so there's real momentum in a moving legato line instead of nOTE bY nOTE grOWTHS anD swELLS thAT arENT reALISTIC phrASING aT aLL



Craig Sharmat said:


> Set it and forget it


I think in the end, this is what we want, anyway. I wouldn't want to adjust release times either, but I'd like to be able to set them short enough that we could get those fingered-hits in the legato transitions, like picking a stem from a cherry, and proceed to leave it there. The fades are likely what is causing the uneasiness me and some other folks are feeling hearing the legato transitions (which sound really pretty darn good - but yeah, CSS and the rest of the Legato Gang, there's always going to be that tendency to reach for them)



borisb2 said:


> Setting Release to 0 for example resulted in exactly the same (a bit blurred) legato transition, but once you released the last note it instantly would cut off.


Yeah, that's a bummer. Hopefully will hear something back from dxmachina about the release times. I don't want to double-ping him since I already pinged him in a 4-paragraph post, he doesn't need me wasting more of his time for fingered legato today.


----------



## dxmachina

The custom envelopes won't affect the legato... the speed controls have an enormous influence however.

But (and you'll have to forgive me because it's been an intense week and I'm a little blurry-eyed)... is what you're hoping to do mostly in regards to the connective tissue (that _exact_ moment the finger depresses the string) or the subsequent new note? It's hard to sometimes put into words since it's all part of the same thing... but trying to see if I can offer a suggestion or just make a note here.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

borisb2 said:


> I tested these. Unfortunately - unless I did something wrong - it does not affect the legato transition but the actual release of the sound after you released the note. Setting Release to 0 for example resulted in exactly the same (a bit blurred) legato transition, but once you released the last note it instantly would cut off.


That makes more sense. These usually affect sustains and it should be there. But the legato transition/envelope etc has to be lock or else things are gonna get ugly fast i think. Meaning you'd have even more complaint about legatos!!! hehe!


----------



## dxmachina

@Duncan Krummel What do you think? Do you like the soloist in there? It's fun to have divisi for the realism and for the layering, but it's SO nice to hear this in a smaller string context too. The other thing that I hope people will explore when using the individual sections is the personality each has. I would venture that using Violins 1B will yield a different sound in your example, and you may like it more or less.

But just enjoyable writing. Made me feel nostalgic for my years playing in orchestras (even though I was just a dumb brass player keeping time).


----------



## Russell Anderson

dxmachina said:


> The custom envelopes won't affect the legato... the speed controls have an enormous influence however.
> 
> But (and you'll have to forgive me because it's been an intense week and I'm a little blurry-eyed)... is what you're hoping to do mostly in regards to the connective tissue (that _exact_ moment the finger depresses the string) or the subsequent new note? It's hard to sometimes put into words since it's all part of the same thing... but trying to see if I can offer a suggestion or just make a note here.


It's definitely challenging to put into words so I'll do my best.

In some instances where I'm expecting specifically a quick fingered legato/transition sound, it's sounding like there's a bit of a gap or delay or crossfade between the two notes, pretty consistently. That style of transition I'm hearing most of the time, with the soft silky connection between the notes is really pretty and I don't want that to get changed or removed by any means, but for fingered transitions specifically, yeah, RIGHT as the finger comes down like you are saying, it's something I feel either isn't there or isn't as realistically snappy so a lot of the legato lines are consistently flowing together and losing some of the realism from what would normally be a player fingering the notes with the resulting instantaneous note changes and that little "finger sound" (totally micro). I'm missing that hard/defined attack on the fingerboard and instant pitch change on the string for commonplace "fingered legato" - and I'm sure you know what I mean about the attack of the finger, that there would be no resulting accent of the note being transitioned to, just that the finger coming down on the fingerboard would be very articulated or just generally clear, and the resulting note change would be as swift as the attack of the finger. I just want to be sure I'm not screwing up the words. Sorry for the verbosity.

In the first 5 seconds when you can hear Itzhak playing the A-D A-D repeated pattern (and forgive me for linking the one of the world's best violinists, but, it's an example...) https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-4766718

There is an instantaneous note change for the fingered legato without breaking the vibration of the string, and in some fingerings he attacks the fingerboard with the finger in such a way that there's almost an attack sound to the finger itself coming down onto the board that you can hear, but the note change is instantaneous; some of the other fingerings are softer and don't have that attack sound, but the note changes are still instant, and the notes, uninterrupted, remain very connected, despite the very swift attack of the finger and changing of notes. That's something I would love to hear being possible with some adjustable parameter, or just based on input velocity or something (forgive me, I still have some learning to do about your library especially given I don't own it, so I'm not sure how it would best fit into the workflow you've setup but I'm sure you'd have a solution in case this is something you'd be able to bring - that is, assuming you don't have a suggestion already that would make possible this kind of snappy but still smooth fingered transition - which if you do, hallelujah!).

Also, I don't imagine release week (or the weeks preceeding!) could ever be smooth. Congratulations (and thank you!) on getting it out and on releasing such a great product, there's a wealth of content to digest and enjoy and I hope I'm not coming across the wrong way by making this comment about the sound of the legato. I think this library is something special, the user demos keep getting better and better and I am more and more liking the sound. One of these months, I'll probably own it. Thanks for your time!


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> I cannot make it sound exactly like Itzhak Perlman.
> 
> 
> 
> There are some challenges in the MSS solo violin to recreating this passage.
> 
> Here's some things I noticed / worked around:
> 
> 
> A little phasing on a couple notes, almost like I hear two violins instead of one.
> Fairly abrupt velocity shifts (big timbral / color changes for each of the four velocities) so I mostly stayed in the lowest of the four and cranked the volume.
> A couple notes are "characterful" as they say.
> The "Accent" attack sounds nothing like Mr. Perlman's hard fingers changing notes. So I used the "Norm" legato or a new note with no attack instead.
> Around bar 3 I flipped to a short quickly to try to simulate Itzhak's bow change a touch early that almost sounded like a re-attack, so if you see the MSS screen "blink" around 0:24 that's what's happening.
> 
> Backing strings are the Ensemble patch from MSS, on the simulated sordino but with the brightness knob turned up quite a bit. The harps are from OT Ark 2 (six harps but who's counting?).
> 
> Mics were Close only, with a little of the Perdition convolution. I adjusted the built in high and low EQ levels to warm up the violin a bit.
> 
> I did start by trying the Intuition Solo Violin but it didn't offer enough control for me. Lots of "volume jumps" even though I was trying to play evenly, so I quickly moved on to the main interface.



Well done , sounds very good ,you passed that challenge with flying colours . Can you now try and do the same with a section of 8 ( or more) mss violins playing the tune like on the version I posted earlier .


----------



## Vik

Russell Anderson said:


> There is an instantaneous note change for the fingered legato without breaking the vibration of the string


Pardon my ignorance – I'm not a string player, but are you talking about the two first notes? I imagine that what we hear there is an octave glide between two notes which are not on the same string, and that this is why it sounds the way it does.


----------



## molemac

This 


molemac said:


> Well done , sounds very good ,you passed that challenge with flying colours . Can you now try and do the same with a section of 8 ( or more) mss violins playing the tune like on the version I posted earlier .


This one 1:10. Or even better 2:26

2https://open.spotify.com/track/7jtYdNH9DUseQjLHQ8y2I6?si=D6e6AfDATqSESgicefenCw


----------



## Russell Anderson

I have no idea what to expect going forward with this library, I'm assuming there'll be updates but I don't suppose setting sights on Itzhak Perlman's solo playing as a goal for "playability and tweakability" regadless of first-chair or any-sized ensemble is within the realm of reason for any developer, haha... But boy, that solo violin attempt at that line was really something, and I can't help but admit it left me craving more. Really, that close-up intimate sound was very special, I'm actually pretty freaking excited about this library. The fact that MSS can just do that with a solo player/chamber sized-ensembles is _too cool, man._ Really, very exciting.




Vik said:


> Pardon my ignorance – I'm not a string player, but are you talking about the two first notes? I imagine that what we hear there is an octave glide between two notes which are not on the same string, and that this is why it sounds the way it does.



No, the A-D-A-D that follow the first two notes were what I was referring to. But, I mean... You could still be right, maybe? I'm not a string player either, just an oboist. But even if those are all rebowed, there's an instantaneous transition between pitches that's generally mostly missing from the legato repertoire of MSS it seems. It's something I'm definitely going to be missing if I come to own it, which I'd like to. Especially given the Intuition patch adds a good level of dexterity to the whole library, quick note transitions instead of the more smoothed-out, hazy ones currently present are going to rob it of a lot of the realism that would otherwise be within its reach. Intuition or not, really, it would be a boon for the whole library IMO to have it. Just, of course, not on every transition - what there is now is good, but just not on every single legato transition, then it stops sounding as much like reality.


----------



## borisb2

dxmachina said:


> is what you're hoping to do mostly in regards to the connective tissue (that _exact_ moment the finger depresses the string) or the subsequent new note?


yeah .. sometimes hard to describe in words - best to do an example: When playing a legato from C to E (auto divisi OFF, overlapping notes), at the moment you're hitting the E the C obviously should fade off (being overlayed by the legato transition and the new note E). In case of MSS that fading off C is still audible for some ms, resulting in a bit hally blurred sound (E is already on its way, but C still audible). The intuition patches dont show that behaviour. .. hope that explanation makes sense?


----------



## dxmachina

@borisb2 Which instrument?

Intuition legato runs with an entirely different paradigm so hard to compare.

Itzhak isn't returning my calls.


----------



## borisb2

dxmachina said:


> @borisb2 Which instrument?
> 
> Intuition legato runs with an entirely different paradigm so hard to compare.
> 
> Itzhak isn't returning my calls.


I tested with Violins1 A and B patch .. Can post an example later if needed


----------



## Russell Anderson

@dxmachina That MSS firstchair legato on the Itzhak video sounded really good to me. I think the legato fuzziness is a lot more prevalent in this (wonderful) example from @Duncan Krummel :









MSS Demos


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





I'm noticing it a lot of the time in the violas and below, less often but sometimes in violin, where the note transitions are hard to hear and the notes seem to fade together. Duncan, I know you're also busy, but I'm curious how it sounds when you turn the transition volume up and increase the speed (whether that means lowering or increasing the knob, lol). I'm definitely not hearing the lack of clarity as much in the solo example, and the one who posted the Itzhak comparison was one who most clearly demonstrated they'd gone to what appeared to be the extent of legato transition clarity - again, theirs didn't seem to be as problematic, so I'm wondering if this is still something solvable within the library right now.



borisb2 said:


> Can post an example later if needed


I would personally like to hear it, for sure. If you're doing everything you can with fast transition speed, and variably the transition volume as well. These aren't things I'd want to leave on all the time so I'd hope the automatic/adaptive legato speed could parse the inputs into something predictable and desirable, but I remember hearing a lot of the demos having the same fuzzy legato sound in a majority of the transitions, so that's... some of what's giving me pause.


----------



## borisb2

Russell Anderson said:


> Duncan, I know you're also busy, but I'm curious how it sounds when you turn the transition volume up and increase the speed (whether that means lowering or increasing the knob, lol)


thats something I tried as well .. it seems - again, unless I'm doing something wrong - all these changes in the legato settings do not whatsoever affect the actual release fade of the previous note, that seems to be a fixed setting.

At this point I have to admit this is really nitpicking of a small detail in that already amazing library - its less of an issue in ensemble/section playing as we already heard, but more in exposed (lyrical) lines in one section - but if this discussion helps pushing the library even further, even better ...


----------



## Russell Anderson

Honestly, I've been listening to this for hours and I am myself quite sleep deprived. 

I'm just going to give everything a listen later and see if I've just started to go a little crazy. Congratulations everyone on your purchases / release, MSS sounds awesome, everyone's user demos are getting way better, fast. Listening again tomorrow we'll see if I'm starting to get a little lost after all these hours today of thinking back and forth about tiny stuff like legato transitions 

^ @borisb2 I agree. exactly, the library sounds great, and this is pretty small stuff. Time to hang it up for now.


----------



## molemac

IN CASE YOU NEEDED SOME MORE TIPS ON HOW TO SOUND MORE LIKE ITZHAC, PLEASE WATCH THIS :
Apparently its all in the lips 🤪


----------



## Soundbed

soulofsound said:


> I think you may get that with “spikes” in the CC1 data, little irregularities, perhaps placed around note changes I mean that will benefit the natural feel of the performance.


Hmm.. I don’t think that will sound the same as those hard finger legato transitions, but it’s a pretty specialized sound. More like a hammer on in the guitar world. The emotion of the piece (Schindler’s) can be communicated without recreating Perlman’s performance of course. But I think I’d want a sample of the finger hitting the fretboard as hard and intentionally as he did to get that sound. Like a “hammer on” overlay lol.


----------



## constaneum




----------



## muziksculp

Interesting to see the MSS Discussion here become more focused on Solo Violin performance.


----------



## constaneum

i wonder what about the Solo Cello and the good old LASS' Solo Viola.


----------



## muziksculp

Yes, please.. let's hear the good old LASS Solo Viola


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> This
> 
> This one 1:10. Or even better 2:26



Well I’m not feeling particularly masochistic 😂 but I could see if I have time tomorrow. Not at the DAW right now — Do you know if the MIDI you previously provided has all those parts? The 8 violins playing the melody an octave up will be easy enough but context helps sell it ... and at 2:26 there’s a couple things going on that would take me a while to figure out by ear.


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> Well I’m not feeling particularly masochistic 😂 but I could see if I have time tomorrow. Not at the DAW right now — Do you know if the MIDI you previously provided has all those parts? The 8 violins playing the melody an octave up will be easy enough but context helps sell it ... and at 2:26 there’s a couple things going on that would take me a while to figure out by ear.


It just has the piano and harp and violin tune , which is a better way of exposing the violins ie not having a string backing . It’s just to see if you can get a violin section playing the tune with some emotion, not to sound like 8 Itzahcs , but to see if MSS section can sound ok doing the top line


----------



## molemac

molemac said:


> It just has the piano and harp and violin tune , which is a better way of exposing the violins ie not having a string backing . It’s just to see if you can get a violin section playing the tune with some emotion, not to sound like 8 Itzahcs , but to see if MSS section can sound ok doing the top line


Ps I posted the sheet music to the tune earlier


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

constaneum said:


>



Woohoo, since he started playing the violins, it's all I wanted to hear. The legato sounds great! 

Thanks for posting. Still have to watch the entire video though.


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> Interesting to see the MSS Discussion here become more focused on Solo Violin performance.


In the Audiobro legato vidio Audiobro was encouraging to use the solo violin with the ensemble to get more detail so I'm sure they noticed something special there, 

From what I am hearing from some of these demos from say those who understand how to apply the new library 

I hear a very complete library that is well thought out and works if you understand what to do it may not be for everyone but it is now the library that stands above the rest,


----------



## Evans

constaneum said:


>



This is the sort of video I want to see. Would have loved to see a bit more fiddling with the controls, but this is helpful.


----------



## constaneum

it's still pretty new so we may need to wait for few more days for those product reviewers to have their comments.


----------



## Batrawi

ansthenia said:


> I'm starting to feel like the biggest problem with this release is simply the default values of the legato settings.


That's great to know! 
How do you prefer setting it then? If you have the time, care to share any simple melodic line with the improved settings?

Also have you tried *THIS* (sufficiently till step 6)? and if you did how do you like the result?


----------



## soulofsound

Evans said:


> This is the sort of video I want to see. Would have loved to see a bit more fiddling with the controls, but this is helpful.


Very talented guy. He's struggling there with the celli because he pushes the CC1 above 70-80 up to 127. Where using the full the dynamic range, which is huge and very pronounced between 50-60 would have given him a much more realistic performance in the context of his intimate piece, i think. But i would have to try it to know for sure, but it seems obvious 70-127 is too much there.


----------



## chrisphan

Is MSS supposed to replace LASS, or in other word is it LASS 3? I haven't been following this closely.


----------



## Evans

soulofsound said:


> Very talented guy. He's struggling there with the celli because he pushes the CC1 above 70-80 up to 127. Where using the full the dynamic range, which is huge and very pronounced between 50-60 would have given him a much more realistic performance, i think. But i would have to try it to know for sure.


Yes, he's quite obviously what people would refer to as "legit," and I'm by no means going to judge his first couple of hours with the library with any real seriousness.

He got carried away a bit - as he called out - with composing rather than digging deep into the library! I believe he said he's considering a video covering blending with other strings, perhaps some EQ, etc.

Good stuff, either way. I just really wish he had taken a few moments to turn a couple of knobs for the legato speed/volume and even brightness, to aid in the cello tone that he didn't seem to like. I'm hoping I didn't simply miss it.


----------



## Evans

chrisphan said:


> Is MSS supposed to replace LASS


I think that depends on how you specifically use LASS.



chrisphan said:


> or in other word is it LASS 3?


No, I believe the understanding is that there is going to be an eventual LASS conversion to the new engine, but MSS is a different library with some overlap yet also significantly different capabilities and techniques that you won't see with LASS.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Is anyone experiencing disk and/or cpu spikes while using this library ? I’m on Logic Pro x and have stripped quite a lot of the patches down to just a handful of articulations but still having some issues. Don’t want to keep bothering the audiobro guys, anyone got an idea how to fix this ?


----------



## Evans

GingerMaestro said:


> Is anyone experiencing disk and/or cpu spikes while using this library ? I’m on Logic Pro x and have stripped quite a lot of the patches down to just a handful of articulations but still having some issues. Don’t want to keep bothering the audiobro guys, anyone got an idea how to fix this ?


How frequent? In the video posted a page or two back, the streamer had at least one very high spike of note (from ~8% to ~90% and then back down). I believe it's a common enough issue for modern Audiobro libraries that they've put together videos and forum posts (their own board) addressing them.


----------



## Wunderhorn

I wonder if anyone has had hanging notes yet on legato patches? That is something that occurred every once in a while with LASS (Logic).


----------



## soulofsound

Wunderhorn said:


> I wonder if anyone has had hanging notes yet on legato patches? That is something that occurred every once in a while with LASS (Logic).


I haven’t nor in any other Kontakt library for years. Maybe a thing of the past now?


----------



## Wunderhorn

soulofsound said:


> I haven’t nor in any other Kontakt library for years. Maybe a thing of the past now?


It still happens constantly with Cinebrass and LASS occasionally as well as some OT Capsule instruments.


----------



## Evans

I still get hanging notes *all the time* in CineBrass (I'm fully up-to-date on the library and Kontakt), and here and there with Berlin Strings sustains.


----------



## Casiquire

Well, I jumped! I'm getting the expanded legatos because they fill a gap and we'll see if that convinces me to get the rest!


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Well, I jumped! I'm getting the expanded legatos because they fill a gap and we'll see if that convinces me to get the rest!


_*Congratulations !*_

I'm still in observation mode.


----------



## ag75

constaneum said:


>



Great video! Really shows off the sound, and what a GREAT sounding library. I am still saving up to upgrade from my LASS 2.5 library, but this video has me convinced this is a stellar library worth getting.


----------



## Wunderhorn

A walkthrough with the expanded legato patches has appeared:


----------



## amorphosynthesis




----------



## Wunderhorn

Wunderhorn said:


> A walkthrough with the expanded legato patches has appeared:


Unfortunnately, it is a pretty useless video. He's riding the mod wheel almost constantly and immediately to the max. Something that you would only do in rare moments with these articulations like sord, sul tasto and sul pont.
Therefore it does not really represent the actual sound character of the extended legatos at all.


----------



## Evans

I think it's a little harsh to call it useless, but it is something to call out. Additionally, there's use of auto-divisi even when playing "mono legato" style, which doesn't present the transitions in the best light.

I'm hearing the same modwheel intensity in other posted examples, too, when something more like "Lullaby For The Planet" is more appropriate for those patches. Might be a good idea for anyone testing out the library to boost the Kontakt master volume knob up a bit, to see if that wards off the desire to ride high on modwheel.


----------



## BasariStudios

Wunderhorn said:


> Unfortunnately, it is a pretty useless video. He's riding the mod wheel almost constantly and immediately to the max. Something that you would only do in rare moments with these articulations like sord, sul tasto and sul pont.
> Therefore it does not really represent the actual sound character of the extended legatos at all.


I think the same, most of the video is chords.


----------



## dzilizzi

Wunderhorn said:


> Unfortunnately, it is a pretty useless video. He's riding the mod wheel almost constantly and immediately to the max. Something that you would only do in rare moments with these articulations like sord, sul tasto and sul pont.
> Therefore it does not really represent the actual sound character of the extended legatos at all.


I was thinking it was starting to sound a little synthy. Then I noticed the mod wheel was all the way over. When the mod wheel was halfway or less, it was a beautiful sound. 

Are the sordinos fake or real? I can't find anything that mentions it.


----------



## Evans

dzilizzi said:


> Are the sordinos fake or real? I can't find anything that mentions it.


Real.

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/page-8#post-4699685



> With MSS we actually recorded the real thing for sustains (and leg, port, gliss): Sordino, Sul Tasto, Sul Pont.


----------



## turnerofwheels

GingerMaestro said:


> Is anyone experiencing disk and/or cpu spikes while using this library ? I’m on Logic Pro x and have stripped quite a lot of the patches down to just a handful of articulations but still having some issues. Don’t want to keep bothering the audiobro guys, anyone got an idea how to fix this ?



Five, six instances of legato (the sections plus a couple solo instruments) easily uses 30% of my CPU steadily, plus spikes, and I've an 8-core i7. I may have to rely more on freezing with this one when I get into larger templates, will see.

I've yet to figure out all the options to shave off CPU usage.


----------



## Lazer42

dzilizzi said:


> I was thinking it was starting to sound a little synthy. Then I noticed the mod wheel was all the way over. When the mod wheel was halfway or less, it was a beautiful sound.
> 
> Are the sordinos fake or real? I can't find anything that mentions it.


This might seem like it may be a bit of an issue with the library, doesn't it? I realize that in the particular case of this video the discussion concerns whether the mod wheel should be so high with these particular articulations, but more generally several people have made a comment to the effect that using higher mod wheel values seems to produce that "synthy" or otherwise less desirable sound. In other words, based on the various examples and reactions so far it does seem like there may be a question of whether the library doesn't sound that great at higher dynamics?


----------



## Living Fossil

Wunderhorn said:


> I wonder if anyone has had hanging notes yet on legato patches? That is something that occurred every once in a while with LASS (Logic).


With LASS the solution was to work with Midi channel 16 to prevent the ARC engine of confusion (which could result in hanging notes).

With MSS i haven't encountered hanging notes.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Lazer42 said:


> In other words, based on the various examples and reactions so far it does seem like there may be a question of whether the library doesn't sound that great at higher dynamics?


Wow, LASS at higher dynamics sounds harsh and MSS sounds sinthy... that’s not encouraging


----------



## Wunderhorn

Living Fossil said:


> With LASS the solution was to work with Midi channel 16 to prevent the ARC engine of confusion (which could result in hanging notes).
> 
> With MSS i haven't encountered hanging notes.


Hanging notes with LASS are happening also without using the ARC which I ditched already years ago, I went on using just a setup consisting of individual patches.


----------



## Living Fossil

Wunderhorn said:


> Hanging notes with LASS are happening also without using the ARC which I ditched already years ago, I went on using just a setup consisting of individual patches.


For me, working with midi channel 16 (as suggested in the AB forum) solved all the hanging notes.


----------



## muziksculp

Wunderhorn said:


> Hanging notes with LASS are happening also without using the ARC which I ditched already years ago, I went on using just a setup consisting of individual patches.


Looking forward to LASS 3 . I wish it would be out soon, but unfortunately it is more likely to be out around the end of 2021. I wonder why so late ?


----------



## Wunderhorn

Lazer42 said:


> This might seem like it may be a bit of an issue with the library, doesn't it? I realize that in the particular case of this video the discussion concerns whether the mod wheel should be so high with these particular articulations, but more generally several people have made a comment to the effect that using higher mod wheel values seems to produce that "synthy" or otherwise less desirable sound. In other words, based on the various examples and reactions so far it does seem like there may be a question of whether the library doesn't sound that great at higher dynamics?


I would argue that in the terms of the 80/20 rule this is 80% a user problem. Where in orchestral concert music do you find extended passages of sordino, sul tasto or sul pont in _*fff*_? And of course that would sound strained. Just because the option is there on the mod wheel range it does not necessarily mean you have to use it. These articulations are much more interesting on lower dynamics by nature.


----------



## Casiquire

yellow_lupine said:


> Wow, LASS at higher dynamics sounds harsh and MSS sounds sinthy... that’s not encouraging


In LASS's defense, that's very realistic


----------



## Evans

Living Fossil said:


> With LASS the solution was to work with Midi channel 16 to prevent the ARC engine of confusion (which could result in hanging notes).
> 
> With MSS i haven't encountered hanging notes.


Thank you. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on MSS, once you have time and feel comfortable doing so.


----------



## Evans

Wunderhorn said:


> Just because the option is there on the mod wheel range it does not necessarily mean you have to use it


Right on. I'm a guitarist, for the most part, but when using my orchestral VIs what I try to emulate most often is when I hear _restraint_ in a piece. It's easy to attempt to use high dynamics where _richness_ in orchestration is really what your ears are looking for.


----------



## Living Fossil

Evans said:


> Thank you. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on MSS, once you have time and feel comfortable doing so.


I will do so... (i'm just finishing a project right now, so i'm short of time...)
First impression is very good, however (as also with MSB) it's a library that needs some knowhow.
And before i pressed the first note, i disabled all convo reverbs and autodivisi.

The legato sounds good to my ears (very first impression), but i think it's not made for melodies that are played permanently in fff. 

(but i just spent really few time with it so far...)


----------



## Lazer42

Wunderhorn said:


> I would argue that in the terms of the 80/20 rule this is 80% a user problem. Where in orchestral concert music do you find extended passages of sordino, sul tasto or sul pont in _*fff*_? And of course that would sound strained. Just because the option is there on the mod wheel range it does not necessarily mean you have to use it. These articulations are much more interesting on lower dynamics by nature.


If speaking in particular about those articulations, that makes sense. My comment was about a number of people having reported higher mod values with more standard articulations.


----------



## ism

Living Fossil said:


> I will do so... (i'm just finishing a project right now, so i'm short of time...)
> First impression is very good, however (as also with MSB) it's a library that needs some knowhow.
> And before i pressed the first note, i disabled all convo reverbs and autodivisi.
> 
> The legato sounds good to my ears (very first impression), but i think it's not made for melodies that are played permanently in fff.
> 
> (but i just spent really few time with it so far...)


I'd be very interested in your take on this also.


----------



## turnerofwheels

It's definitely clicking more for me today.

You know the drill with sample libraries. You get to know its sound, responsiveness and feel, then you write for that rather than against it. The demos I had problems with now sound like they were trying to force it rather than working with it.

Still have yet to really dig into the fast legato though, one thing at a time.


----------



## clisma

Casiquire said:


> Well, I jumped! I'm getting the expanded legatos because they fill a gap and we'll see if that convinces me to get the rest!


Congrats! Please report back your findings when ready. Your calmer, wiser demeanor and approach to evaluating this behemoth will be highly appreciated.


----------



## GingerMaestro

GingerMaestro said:


> Is anyone experiencing disk and/or cpu spikes while using this library ? I’m on Logic Pro x and have stripped quite a lot of the patches down to just a handful of articulations but still having some issues. Don’t want to keep bothering the audiobro guys, anyone got an idea how to fix this ?


Unfortunately it’s happening quite often, even when I’m just playing one instrument that doesn’t have many articulations loaded...I hope this isn’t going to mean the library is unusable as I am really enjoying it and in the middle of trying to mock some important stuff up...

any suggestions would be very helpful...I’ll check out the audio bro forum


----------



## dzilizzi

Evans said:


> Real.
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/page-8#post-4699685


Thanks! Not that I could really tell the difference, I'm sure.


----------



## ism

dzilizzi said:


> Thanks! Not that I could really tell the difference, I'm sure.


You could probably *feel* the difference though.


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> Looking forward to LASS 3 . I wish it would be out soon, but unfortunately it is more likely to be out around the end of 2021. I wonder why so late ?


I hate to say it, but A/Bing MSS with LASS, I like LASS better ☹️ more clarity.


----------



## muziksculp

chapbot said:


> I hate to say it, but A/Bing MSS with LASS, I like LASS better ☹️ more clarity.


LASS 3 should sound equal to LASS 2.5, but running in their new GUI/Engine. and much easier to use. 

I'm still not sure what to think about MSS, for now I'm just observing the developments as far as user feedback, more videos, demos. I have until March 15 th or 16th to decide before the loyalty discount ends. Maybe they can extend it, but that's up to AudioBro.


----------



## muziksculp

chapbot said:


> I hate to say it, but A/Bing MSS with LASS, I like LASS better ☹️ more clarity.


Is it mostly the clarity ? How does MSS lack clarity, not sure I understand what Clarity means here.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Is it mostly the clarity ? How does MSS lack clarity, not sure I understand what Clarity means here.


I'm with you. I think the MSS sound is much clearer. LASS has a lot of baked-in room and sounds much less focused


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> Is it mostly the clarity ? How does MSS lack clarity, not sure I understand what Clarity means here.


I guess I'd say clarity=realism, crispness, definition. MSS is of course more refined but when I A/Bd my heart sank because I felt more realism from LASS.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

chapbot said:


> I hate to say it, but A/Bing MSS with LASS, I like LASS better ☹️ more clarity.


Could if be just a matter of mics/reverb settings?


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I'm with you. I think the MSS sound is much clearer. LASS has a lot of baked-in room and sounds much less focused


I can't easily judge this detail, since I don't have MSS, and I find it hard to evaluate something like this via the videos, and demos that are already posted. 

Meanwhile, I'm still sitting tight, observing, and trying to decide if I will or won't buy MSS + Leg. Expansions. 

Hopefully AudioBro will post more videos, and more users videos, and feedback will help me decide. 

Oh.. do you know why LASS 3 is not going to be released earlier this year, but rather around the end of the year ? 

Thanks.


----------



## Trevor Meier

I've really been eyeing the ostinato feature since the first MSS video came out. Decided to give it a go with SCS to see how close I could get (with the new AR1 Legendary Low strings as a low-end bonus). I think SCS does a decent job. It took a little finessing, but by changing up legato type and finessing CC it started to sound fairly natural to my ears. 

Curious what you owners think compared to what MSS can do.

 Unfin 2021-02-18.mp3 4 MB


----------



## muziksculp

OH.. I should also add that I'm also very interested, and excited about the upcoming Sonokinetic Strings Library, which also offers divisi feature. So.. It's becoming harder to rush buying MSS, given the Sonokinetic library will be out in April, but that would also mean I have to decide before April since I will lose my loyalty discount for MSS.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Trevor Meier said:


> I've really been eyeing the ostinato feature since the first MSS video came out. Decided to give it a go with SCS to see how close I could get (with the new AR1 Legendary Low strings as a low-end bonus). I think SCS does a decent job. It took a little finessing, but by changing up legato type and finessing CC it started to sound fairly natural to my ears.
> 
> Curious what you owners think compared to what MSS can do.
> 
> Unfin 2021-02-18.mp3  4 MB


I was hopping someone would do that but didn't dear to ask. Thanks a lot.


----------



## chapbot

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Could if be just a matter of mics/reverb settings?


Nope, had close mic and turned off all 39 reverbs 🤣


----------



## muziksculp

Trevor Meier said:


> I've really been eyeing the ostinato feature since the first MSS video came out. Decided to give it a go with SCS to see how close I could get (with the new AR1 Legendary Low strings as a low-end bonus). I think SCS does a decent job. It took a little finessing, but by changing up legato type and finessing CC it started to sound fairly natural to my ears.
> 
> Curious what you owners think compared to what MSS can do.
> 
> Unfin 2021-02-18.mp3 4 MB


I don't own MSS, but I think MSS Ostinatos sound much more realistic, and smoother than your demo.

I'm surprised no one is posting some videos, or demos using it so far. But mostly discussing legato, and solo violin.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

chapbot said:


> I guess I'd say clarity=realism, crispness, definition. MSS is of course more refined but when I A/Bd my heart sank because I felt more realism from LASS.


Do you have any comparisons you could share to illustrate this?


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> I can't easily judge this detail, since I don't have MSS, and I find it hard to evaluate something like this via the videos, and demos that are already posted.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm still sitting tight, observing, and trying to decide if I will or won't buy MSS + Leg. Expansions.
> 
> Hopefully AudioBro will post more videos, and more users videos, and feedback will help me decide.
> 
> Oh.. do you know why LASS 3 is not going to be released earlier this year, but rather around the end of the year ?
> 
> Thanks.


Totally! I'm reading comments of people who are just blown away by this library and I'm thinking are we actually playing the same samples LOL! Maybe I'm missing something... maybe my mod wheel is too high... I don't know, I keep playing with it trying to find something I love. I do like the shorts and I had hoped the legato sound would be as realistic as the shorts but I can't find that realism.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

muziksculp said:


> I don't own MSS, but I think MSS Ostinatos sound much more realistic, and smoother than your demo.
> 
> I'm surprised no one is posting some videos, or demos using it so far. But mostly discussing legato, and solo violin.



Probably because legatos and longs are the single most used/important articulation in a string library.

Personally, i think CSS did well enough for my needs. I was starting to think i would get MSS mostly for those otinatos abd other extra but now I'm pretty sure i won't get it. Great valu for most people here i sure but not for me. i can't help wonder is adding CSSS on top CSS would add a bit more definition. Just curious.


----------



## muziksculp

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> i can't help wonder is adding CSSS on top CSS would add a bit more definition. Just curious.


Layering a solo string instrument with the ensemble of that instrument, i.e. Solo Violin with VLS 1 Ens. Adds more detail, and definition to the ensemble sound, depending on how you mix the two.

I think MSS has so much more feature wise compared to CSS, and sounds very different. I wouldn't compare them.


----------



## FireGS

Anyone else play a lot with the shorts? I'm having a difficult time getting them to sit in a mix. I've been listening to the same piece for literally hours now trying to massage 10 divisi sections, mics, reverbs, and I don't even know what sounds real or not anymore @[email protected]

Anyone for a beer?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

muziksculp said:


> Layering a solo string instrument with the ensemble of that instrument, i.e. Solo Violin with VLS 1 Ens. Adds more detail, and definition to the ensemble sound, depending on how you mix the two.
> 
> I think MSS has so much more feature wise compared to CSS, and sounds very different. I wouldn't compare them.


It depends what you're looking for. If one's concerns is the bread and butter part of the library then it makes sense to compare the longs, shorts and what ever they have in commons.


----------



## amadeus1

Ryan Fultz said:


> Its just the internet slang meaning refreshing a page a ton in anticipation.
> 
> The actual command function isn't important, if you start staying "cmd+R" a lot of people will just be confused.
> 
> Similarly, giving a website a "hug of death" means you crashing the site from everyone repeatedly visiting and refreshing the page.


Mac users will be confused if you mention F5 for refreshing a browser page. Doesn't work on macs, its cmd r for mac users.


----------



## muziksculp

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> It depends what you're looking for. If one's concerns is the bread and butter part of the library then it makes sense to compare the longs, shorts and what ever they have in commons.


If you prefer the sound of CSS to MSS, then there is no point in buying MSS. 

Just add CSSS, and you will be set. 

MSS is a very different level of Strings Library. Yes, they share the basics, but they sound very different. So, comparing them makes no sense to me. They are both pro level libraries, that deliver, but very different sonically.


----------



## borisb2

chapbot said:


> I hate to say it, but A/Bing MSS with LASS, I like LASS better ☹️ more clarity.


I think that blends well with my comment/observation of the transitions being too blurred


----------



## Evans

FireGS said:


> Anyone else play a lot with the shorts? I'm having a difficult time getting them to sit in a mix. I've been listening to the same piece for literally hours now trying to massage 10 divisi sections, mics, reverbs, and I don't even know what sounds real or not anymore @[email protected]


I do that with every library.


----------



## muziksculp

The more I follow the posts on this thread, the less I'm encouraged to buy MSS & Legato Exp.


----------



## Evans

muziksculp said:


> The more I follow the posts on this thread, the less I'm encouraged to buy MSS & Legato Exp.


Opposite.


----------



## Lazer42

chapbot said:


> Totally! I'm reading comments of people who are just blown away by this library and I'm thinking are we actually playing the same samples LOL! Maybe I'm missing something... maybe my mod will is too high... I don't know, I keep playing with it trying to find something I love. I do like the shorts and I had hoped the legato sound would be as realistic as the shorts but I can't find that realism.


I understand this perspective. I feel the same thing whenever I read through a thread about a lot of the VSL string libraries: people will post examples which just sound so fake to me and yet a good number of people praise them as fantastic. 

In a similar way, I am listening to the demos people are putting up of MSS and thinking they just sound very fake to me, in spite of the praise they are getting. Now make no mistake: the compositional and/or programming work that members are putting into these demos is very strong; it just sounds to me like the library is letting them down - and the thing is, I am not even talking about stuff which programming would (I'd think) make a difference on. E.g., the transition between notes in a legato phrase or whatever. It's rather just the _sound _itself which doesn't sound right to my ears. 

I mean if you just take a single long note and just sortof ignore the attack and decay, the basic sustain sounds are sometimes sounding okay to me but other times they are making me think of the sound of the old FM synths or OPL3 sounds from old computer games or MIDI sequencing. I don't want to be taken the wrong way: I am NOT saying they sound the same. Clearly a premier product like MSS would sound better and more realistic than that. It's just that there's something about the sound which _reminds me_ of those kinds of sounds and which doesn't come across to me as realistic.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

muziksculp said:


> If you prefer the sound of CSS to MSS, then there is no point in buying MSS.
> 
> Just add CSSS, and you will be set.
> 
> MSS is a very different level of Strings Library. Yes, they share the basics, but they sound very different. So, comparing them makes no sense to me. They are both pro level libraries, that deliver, but very different sonically.


I didn't say anything about the sound. It's about being more effective at doing the basics for me.


----------



## Evans

What about the Curtis Schweitzer video? That put a new spin on it for me.


----------



## Raphioli

borisb2 said:


> I think that blends well with my comment/observation of the transitions being too blurred


I think I get what you're saying. Its like the first note is bleeding in(?) to the transition samples.
I don't hear it in every user demo though. The solo violin sounded nice and someone uploaded the demo using only section A and I think I didn't hear that there either.

Edit:
If its scripting, I'm sure AudioBro could get it sorted out.


----------



## muziksculp

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I didn't say anything about the sound. It's about being more effective at doing the basics for me.


Great, so you seem to know what works for you.


----------



## Raphioli

Evans said:


> What about the Curtis Schweitzer video? That put a new spin on it for me.


Was it Sul tastos he was using? I loved the timbre.


----------



## Zedcars

Sorry to focus on the solo violin again, but in the Expanded Legato patch I'm hearing weirdness on note E4 (C4=Middle C). If you sustain the note past the first loop point and wait for the next loop to come round, about 1/2 second before it loops again it sounds like 2 note samples are overlapping. It happens at any dynamic. That can't be right can it?

Anyone confirm this?

I know you would not normally play it like this, but it may come up if you are at the end of a phrase or in a slow piece.

You can hear it at 5s, 10s, 14s and 18s.

View attachment MSS Solo Violin Exp Legato-Double Note Bug.mp3


NB This is not meant to sound nice, just to show the problem!


----------



## Evans

Zedcars said:


> That can't be right can it?


Nope.



Zedcars said:


> I know you would not normally play it like this


Yep.

Also, I would never use these as exposed, solo instruments. Only for layering in some detail. Maybe I'm being silly.


----------



## muziksculp

Evans said:


> Opposite.


Well.... I'm reading more (-) than (+) posts about it. Maybe this will change at some point.


----------



## borisb2

Raphioli said:


> I think I get what you're saying. Its like the first note is bleeding in(?) to the transition samples.
> I don't hear it in every user demo though. The solo violin sounded nice and someone uploaded the demo using only section A and I think I didn't hear that there either.
> 
> Edit:
> If its scripting, I'm sure AudioBro could get it sorted out.


I'm sure AudiorBro can sort that out, it's not dealbraker anyway - but worth mentioning for sure .. and it sounds like they are listening which is great.. The Solo Violin example sounded really good - I tested the Solo-violin myself - it sounds perfectly fine


----------



## muziksculp

Isn't the MSS Solo Violin meant to work as a first chair, rather than a full blown Solo Violin Library ?


----------



## borisb2

muziksculp said:


> Well.... I'm reading more (-) than (+) posts about it. Maybe this will change at some point.


yeah .. although thats a bit misleading really. There are 99 positive things about MSS and 1 a bit mixed .. unfortunately that 1 thing is an important one for so many people ..

And the nature of human beings usually is to focus one 1 negative thing anyway (rather than 99 positive)


----------



## chapbot

Zedcars said:


> Sorry to focus on the solo violin again, but in the Expanded Legato patch I'm hearing weirdness on note E4 (C4=Middle C). If you sustain the note past the first loop point and wait for the next loop to come round, about 1/2 second before it loops again it sounds like 2 note samples are overlapping. It happens at any dynamic. That can't be right can it?
> 
> Anyone confirm this?
> 
> I know you would not normally play it like this, but it may come up if you are at the end of a phrase or in a slow piece.
> 
> You can hear it at 5s, 10s, 14s and 18s.
> 
> View attachment MSS Solo Violin Exp Legato-Double Note Bug.mp3
> 
> 
> NB This is not meant to sound nice, just to show the problem!


Thank goodness this is a first chair patch and not a solo violin, nobody will hear it 🤣😭


----------



## muziksculp

borisb2 said:


> There are 99 positive things about MSS and 1 a bit mixed .. unfortunately that 1 thing is an important one for so many people


Is that one thing the LEGATO ?


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> Isn't the MSS Solo Violin meant to work as a first chair, rather than a full blown Solo Violin Library ?


I mean, I get that isn't the focus of the library. But it stuck out at me while I was playing.


----------



## borisb2

muziksculp said:


> Is that one thing the LEGATO ?


bingoooo .. its ok though - perfectly playable .. somebody mentioned it reminded him/her to HWS-legato .. I could live with that comparision


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> Is that one thing the LEGATO ?


Yep actually I like everything about the library except the core legato sound LOL


----------



## Evans

It's important to me to understand *who *is saying what about which features. People whose opinions I trust far more than my own.


----------



## muziksculp

Zedcars said:


> I mean, I get that isn't the focus of the library. But it stuck out at me while I was playing.


Come on guys.. Why don't you post more feedback about MSS Ostinatos, Shorts, Aleatoric, Sordinos, Expanded Legatos, Sul-Pont, Sul-Tasto, Auto-Divisi, the various Mics, ....etc. etc.


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> Come on guys.. Why don't you post more feedback about MSS Ostinatos, Shorts, Aleatoric, Sordinos, Expanded Legatos, Sul-Pont, Sul-Tasto, Auto-Divisi, the various Mics, ....etc. etc.


I'm methodical I'm afraid and like to comb through gradually.


----------



## muziksculp

Zedcars said:


> I'm methodical I'm afraid and like to comb through gradually.


That might require a few months given the feature MSS offers


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> That might require a few months given the feature MSS offers


Probably. I haven't fully explored VSL Symphonic Cube yet and I bought that about 15 years ago or something lol


----------



## Lazer42

Zedcars said:


> Sorry to focus on the solo violin again, but in the Expanded Legato patch I'm hearing weirdness on note E4 (C4=Middle C). If you sustain the note past the first loop point and wait for the next loop to come round, about 1/2 second before it loops again it sounds like 2 note samples are overlapping. It happens at any dynamic. That can't be right can it?
> 
> Anyone confirm this?
> 
> I know you would not normally play it like this, but it may come up if you are at the end of a phrase or in a slow piece.
> 
> You can hear it at 5s, 10s, 14s and 18s.
> 
> View attachment MSS Solo Violin Exp Legato-Double Note Bug.mp3
> 
> 
> NB This is not meant to sound nice, just to show the problem!


It definitely sounds wrong, but this strikes me as one of the little issues that any library has. For example, there are a few notes in some of the HW Brass horn patch that have noticeable issues at loop points.


----------



## Zedcars

Lazer42 said:


> It definitely sounds wrong, but this strikes me as one of the little issues that any library has. For example, there are a few notes in some of the HW Brass horn patch that have noticeable issues at loop points.


Ah ok. Probably not an issue for most if anyone then.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> yeah .. although thats a bit misleading really. There are 99 positive things about MSS and 1 a bit mixed .. unfortunately that 1 thing is an important one for so many people ..
> 
> And the nature of human beings usually is to focus one 1 negative thing anyway (rather than 99 positive)


I agree with this . I would add that there are 2 negatives and 99 positives. The negs are obviously legato and also the overall sound just not being something to get inspired by. Lass had a certain realism despite its harshness but MSS sustains seem to be as others have said and for want of another word a bit synthy. There seems to be a lack of detail when everyone is playing and then when exposed it’s not that great a sound. Apart from the Shindler’s solo violin and one or two of the AUdiobro demos nothing has made me go wow I must have this. I will wait to see if any user demos that focus on sustained emotion and or lyrical melody come out to change that opinion but I think sadly as I was so looking forward to it, I am out.


----------



## chapbot

molemac said:


> I agree with this . I would add that there are 2 negatives and 99 positives. The negs are obviously legato and also the overall sound just not being something to get inspired by. Lass had a certain realism despite its harshness but MSS sustains seem to be as others have said and for want of another word a bit synthy. There seems to be a lack of detail when everyone is playing and then when exposed it’s not that great a sound. Apart from the Shindler’s solo violin and one or two of the AUdiobro demos nothing has made me go wow I must have this. I will wait to see if any user demos that focus on sustained emotion and or lyrical melody come out to change that opinion but I think sadly as I was so looking forward to it, I am out.


Yep, yep, yep. This 100%, sums it up for me. I just bought MSS and have used LASS for a decade.


----------



## muziksculp

molemac said:


> The negs are obviously legato and also the overall sound just not being something to get inspired by


Your (-) comments here makes me stay far away from MSS.


----------



## Batrawi

borisb2 said:


> somebody mentioned it reminded him/her to HWS-legato


If it's anything like HWS legato I'd buy it in a heart beat. And by the way, people complaining about that 1 bad thing and leaving the other 99 good things, is that because that 1 thing occupies 99% of their music while the 99 good things occupy 1%... well I'm exaggerating, but... you get the idea😏


----------



## muziksculp

Batrawi said:


> If it's anything like HWS legato I'd buy it in a heart beat. And by the way, people complaining about that 1 bad thing and leaving the other 99 good things, is that because that 1 thing occupies 99% of their music while the 99 good things occupy 1%... well I'm exaggerating, but... you get the idea😏


@Batrawi,

I'm guessing you are still evaluating if you will be buying MSS. 

So.. What's your gut feeling about it so far ?


----------



## Lazer42

Batrawi said:


> If it's anything like HWS legato I'd buy it in a heart beat. And by the way, people complaining about that 1 bad thing and leaving the other 99 good things, is that because that 1 thing occupies 99% of their music while the 99 good things occupy 1%... well I'm exaggerating, but... you get the idea😏


I'm not sure whether my comment is the one that inspired this comment, but I did say about one of the user demos earlier in the thread that after a given tweak to some setting (I don't remember which) it sortof reminded me a bit of HWS. However, it's important to keep in mind (as far as my previous comment goes) that while I do think HWS sounds pretty good in many contexts, there are a few issues I've been having with specific aspects of HWS's sound lately and it may have been those particular nuances which prompted my comparison.

To be a bit more clear about my view on HWS, I think in a mix it can sound pretty darn good, but when exposed some of the instruments can sound a bit odd or not quite right in certain ranges. I don't know if I'd say the same about MSS at this point as it is so new and so it's hard to make that judgment.


----------



## borisb2

quick update on memory:

added MSS now to the template. Loading all 5 patches as they come with the library results in about 11GB memory for 1 mic (Mix), about 18GB (not 22?) using close+stage. But I dont like using only 1 patch per section. Normally I would have liked for each section a split into 3 patches (legato + longs + shorts), but that boosted up the memory to 27GB for 2 mics (using roughly the same articulations), also saving times took a lot longer when using multiple instances of the GUI. So I settled for 2 patches each (longs incl legato and shorts), using about 17GB for stage mics only .. confusing numbers, have to dig deeper what is going on under the hood.

What are your findings?


----------



## turnerofwheels

GingerMaestro said:


> Unfortunately it’s happening quite often, even when I’m just playing one instrument that doesn’t have many articulations loaded...I hope this isn’t going to mean the library is unusable as I am really enjoying it and in the middle of trying to mock some important stuff up...
> 
> any suggestions would be very helpful...I’ll check out the audio bro forum


If you haven't already, try a batch resave. That cut my cpu usage by almost a third. You can also turn off all the built in effects etc.

Aside from that I do find it difficult to totally troubleshoot cpu spikes as I switched to Nuendo a few months ago, and despite combing the manual, disabling everything, and making offerings to the gods of CPU latency it is easily the most CPU-spiky DAW I've used in my 20 years of DAW usage.


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> @Batrawi,
> 
> I'm guessing you are still evaluating if you will be buying MSS.
> 
> So.. What's your gut feeling about it so far ?


Still undecided. I do like a lot of things (those 99 good things if you wanna say) including the sound, but the legato☹... it's like that 1 brick that ruins the whole building if you take it out, and that's what I feel about the library right now. Still I'm hoping for people to get used more to the library and prove me wrong... in fact, I did suggest some tweaks which I believe could be the only way to improve the legato but people seems to have neglected it or just feel too lazy to try it (yes looking at you @chapbot 😡... kiddin😝)


----------



## Zedcars

borisb2 said:


> quick update on memory:
> 
> added MSS now to the template. Loading all 5 patches as they come with the library results in about 11GB memory for 1 mic (Mix), about 18GB (not 22?) using close+stage. But I dont like using only 1 patch per section. Normally I would have liked for each section a split into 3 patches (legato + longs + shorts), but that boosted up the memory to 27GB for 2 mics (using roughly the same articulations), also saving times took a lot longer when using multiple instances of the GUI. So I settled for 2 patches each (longs incl legato and shorts), using about 17GB for stage mics only .. confusing numbers, have to dig deeper what is going on under the hood.
> 
> What are your findings?


I actually completely forgot about keeping tabs on the memory and loaded everything full throttle. Got to 96GB on a 64GB system and Cubase wasn't very happy with me at all. Had a nice colourful spinning beachball for my carelessness.


----------



## molemac

Batrawi said:


> If it's anything like HWS legato I'd buy it in a heart beat. And by the way, people complaining about that 1 bad thing and leaving the other 99 good things, is that because that 1 thing occupies 99% of their music while the 99 good things occupy 1%... well I'm exaggerating, but... you get the idea😏


Yes the sound is 99%


----------



## molemac

Also to clarify an earlier comment when I said I am not wowed by the sound I am 100% wowed by everything else it can do.


----------



## FireGS

Here's my opinion on the sound: it REALLY wants to be a Howard Shore/Lord of the Rings string section.


----------



## Sovereign

FireGS said:


> Here's my opinion on the sound: it REALLY wants to be a Howard Shore/Lord of the Rings string section.


Do the one ring theme as a brief mock-up. Personally I'm not hearing the Shore vibe in any demo I listened to.


----------



## Zedcars

FireGS said:


> Here's my opinion on the sound: it REALLY wants to be a Howard Shore/Lord of the Rings string section.


I want to be a rich playboy but it ain't gonna happen unless I win the lottery and get a body transplant.


----------



## FireGS

Sovereign said:


> Do the one ring theme as a brief mock-up. Personally I'm not hearing the Shore vibe in any demo I listened to.


I mean in terms of the overall quality of the tone. Rings is a very dark, tonally, soundtrack. Hobbit less so.


----------



## molemac

FireGS said:


> Here's my opinion on the sound: it REALLY wants to be a Howard Shore/Lord of the Rings string section.


Would be useful then for whoever gets the gig of writing the new Amazon Lord of the rings series being filmed here in NZ 😊, only the biggest budget show ever made


----------



## muziksculp

Maybe @dxmachina can provide some tips, or more insight regarding MSS Legatos, and what could be done to improve them. 

Is there a demo of MSS that show the legato issue that many here are talking about ?


----------



## dgburns

Well......

I didn’t buy. I don’t own it. But....

Me no likey the demos. Sure they are well composed, that’s not the issue.

This library sounds very Cinematic specific. I did not really dig that first demo cut, those shorts sounded MUSHY!!!

I really dug the softer sounding demo cut, it really nails what this lib will do, more soft strings in a cinematic style.

it all sounds like it has Lass DNA, it’s got more room baked in, like EWHO but this is not what I wanted. I have that sound already.

Sorry fellas, me looking elsewhere at the moment. Lass 3 it will be for this dude.


----------



## muziksculp

FireGS said:


> I mean in terms of the overall quality of the tone. Rings is a very dark, tonally, soundtrack. Hobbit less so.


Here is *Sample Modeling Strings* doing Howard Shore's Lord of The Rings theme.


----------



## borisb2

FireGS said:


> Hobbit less so.


Worked on that one.. unfortunately not the music 😋


----------



## FireGS

borisb2 said:


> Worked on that one.. unfortunately not the music 😋


Kia ora! I love you! <3


----------



## borisb2

FireGS said:


> Kia ora! I love you! <3


Sure 😋.. Remember though when the score was being recorded here with NZSO


----------



## Bollen

muziksculp said:


> Here is *Sample Modeling Strings* doing Howard Shore's Lord of The Rings theme.



But that's samplemodelling strings, right?


----------



## muziksculp

Bollen said:


> But that's samplemodelling strings, right?


Yes. they sound awesome, and their legato's are smooth as silk.


----------



## Bollen

muziksculp said:


> Yes. they sound awesome, and their legato's are smooth as silk.


Yeah I have them, although I haven't really played with them much yet. If I could pair them up with MSS's intuition and aleatorics I would have everything I would ever need! Wish they sold them separate...


----------



## Trevor Meier

@dxmachina are there videos scheduled for the expanded legatos and sound of the individual divisi? Especially the latter... the sound of the smaller single sections is a buy-or-not decision factor for me.


----------



## FireGS

OK, there's something really weird going on here.

Loaded up V1 combined patch. No settings touched. Does anyone else hear a lot of low-end harmonics on this? between 500hz and around 1200hz? It sounds like a bass ocarina and a flute doubling. Am I on crazy pills again?

NOTE: THIS IS UNFINISHED. THIS IS NOT AN MSS "DEMO". NO DYNAMICS PROGRAMMED. ONLY STRAIGHT NOTES PLAYED INTO IT. (can't believe I have to say this...)

[removed]

EDIT: I thought this might have something to do with the phasing, and it IS phasing, but even summed to mono, those overtones (undertones?) are still there.


----------



## muziksculp

Bollen said:


> Yeah I have them, although I haven't really played with them much yet


I'm working on customizing Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings to my taste, I'm not done yet, but once I feel that I got what I want to hear, I will post some audio clips on the topic's thread. My advice is don't ignore SM strings, they are amazing, but require some work to get them to your taste.

Their Legato is super smooth, and responsive to your playing, also the portamento is very expressive.

I don't want to discuss it here, since this is the MSS thread. But, wanted to post the demo, to show how beautiful, the timbre, and legato sound. By the way I don't think they use legato transition samples, but rather some type of modeling to do their legato transitions. Which imho. is a big advantage over traditional sampling of legatos. I'm guessing that AudioBro has used something of this nature in their MSS 'Intuition' patches. That's why they sound much smoother, and more agile than the main library's legatos. Just a guess. Since I don't have MSS, and I'm still undecided if I should buy it.


----------



## Living Fossil

Ok, some "very first impressions":

- it's striking that a lot of effort has gone into this library to provide some extraordinary features..
The Ostinato and the scale engine are extremely capable. I have yet to figure it out, in which way to set it up according to a most intuitive workflow. Since you can do really fantastic stuff with these, as long as you're in control over what's going in (means for me: disabling all "auto"-features and assigning info as "time division", speed etc).

- the legato can indeed sound very good and emotional, but it depends on lots of dynamic details (i.e. CC1 work), legato speed and general articulation [crescendo, Accent, normal]. But switching between different dynamic layers seems to be quite important; they give a different emotional flavor and thereby can be useful to set an emotional melodical message. I wish there would be the possibility to choose the articulation [crescendo, Accent, normal] via Keyswitch velocity.

- the shorts sound very good and i like the ability to switch between different lengths (mart., stacc, staccatissimo, spiccato) via keyswitch velocity (as known from CSS).
However, if you compare them to LASS, i think LASS can be edgier; more aggressive and in the face.
Then again, i think the staccato articulation seems to be useful to build fluent fast passages (which would remind fingered legato).

Now the downside:

- I really don't like the sound the library comes with. First of all, i turned down all convolution verbs and the EQ. (I will think about the EQ separately with fresh ears and depending on the context)
Then: i don't think the "Mix" version sounds appealing. I think it sounds quite "synthy" (sorry).
I guess it relates to the problem with spatial information that gets crossfaded.
What i did so far (and i like the direction) is the following: a mix with the close and the stage signal (the latter at a lower level), not panned but with narrowed width. This goes to an instance of Precedence, and the signal is routed to Cinematic Rooms Pro (with only a decent amount of wet signal).
The direction seems promising - but i have to explore further with fresh ears...


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

FireGS said:


> OK, there's something really weird going on here.
> 
> Loaded up V1 combined patch. No settings touched. Does anyone else hear a lot of low-end harmonics on this? between 500hz and around 1200hz? It sounds like a bass ocarina and a flute doubling. Am I on crazy pills again?
> 
> NOTE: THIS IS UNFINISHED. THIS IS NOT AN MSS "DEMO". NO DYNAMICS PROGRAMMED. ONLY STRAIGHT NOTES PLAYED INTO IT. (can't believe I have to say this...)
> 
> View attachment 45134
> 
> 
> EDIT: I thought this might have something to do with the phasing, and it IS phasing, but even summed to mono, those overtones (undertones?) are still there.


You mean no CC involve? Also, is that a sordino patch?


----------



## Bollen

muziksculp said:


> I'm working on customizing Sample Modeling Solo & Ensemble Strings to my taste, I'm not done yet, but once I feel thatI got what I want to hear, I will post some audio clips on the topic's thread. My advice is don't ignore SM strings, they are amazing, but require some work to get them to your taste.
> 
> Their Legato is super smooth, and responsive to your playing, also the portamento is very expressive.
> 
> I don't want to discuss it here, since this is the MSS thread. But, wanted to post the demo, to show how beautiful, the timbre, and legato sound. By the way I don't think they use legato transition samples, but rather some type of modeling to do their legato transitions. Which imho. is a big advantage over traditional sampling of legatos. I'm guessing that AudioBro has used something of this nature in their MSS 'Intuition' patches. That's why they sound much smoother, and more agile than the main library's legatos. Just a guess. Since I don't have MSS, and I'm still undecided if I should buy it.


Yeah let's not discuss it here, I won't buy these since I feel I have enough with SM and VSL DS. But if they break down the packages I will consider it...


----------



## FireGS

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> You mean no CC involve? Also, is that a sordino patch?


No, regular patch. And yes, *0* CC involved.

Here's another example at maximum dynamics, using the "unprocessed" snapshot, mix mic. The harmonics come and go in the various registers. Its like this in the close mics, stage, and surround. And at least on both Violin sections, divisi sections, and Intuition patches. Narrowing the mix doesn't affect this.

I really hope the answer to this isnt, "well that's the natural response of the section".

[removed]


----------



## dzilizzi

These should be on sale again Black Friday maybe? I may try Sample Modeling instead right now since they still have their Covid sale going and who knows how long that will last. I also want to see what the Opus player does. Well, if it does. Who knows with EW whether they will actually finish it. 

The problem with MSS is I own too many libraries already that are similar or cover the basics. But I do like their ART, Ostinato and runs features. But that is really it. I would love it if I could buy their player for some of my other libraries. The aleatoric stuff doesn't really interest me right now. I have all of 8Dios and really don't use it. 

But I will keep watching to see if users get it to sound really good.


----------



## Zedcars

FireGS said:


> OK, there's something really weird going on here.
> 
> Loaded up V1 combined patch. No settings touched. Does anyone else hear a lot of low-end harmonics on this? between 500hz and around 1200hz? It sounds like a bass ocarina and a flute doubling. Am I on crazy pills again?
> 
> NOTE: THIS IS UNFINISHED. THIS IS NOT AN MSS "DEMO". NO DYNAMICS PROGRAMMED. ONLY STRAIGHT NOTES PLAYED INTO IT. (can't believe I have to say this...)
> 
> View attachment 45134
> 
> 
> EDIT: I thought this might have something to do with the phasing, and it IS phasing, but even summed to mono, those overtones (undertones?) are still there.


After about the fifth listen on headphones and concentrating very hard I think I can hear what you’re referring too. Some kind of subharmonics but I don’t think that’s it. I don’t know what that is. I’ll see if I can reproduce it tomorrow (powered down now).

Now I’ve heard it I cannot unhear it.


----------



## FireGS

Zedcars said:


> After about the fifth listen on headphones and concentrating very hard I think I can hear what you’re referring too. Some kind of subharmonics but I don’t think that’s it. I don’t know what that is. I’ll see if I can reproduce it tomorrow (powered down now).
> 
> Now I’ve heard it I cannot unhear it.


Thats exactly what's happened to me. I cannot unhear this.


----------



## FireGS

It's subharmonics. That peak at 500hz.

Edit: Wait, I'm playing B4, so that peak is actually the fundamental tone... but....? Why does it sound like this?

EDIT2: OK, every single Violin from every library I own is doing this. I've ruined myself. It's not the library's fault.

EDIT3: I just checked a bunch of libraries, and indeed, this one's fundamentals are a bit louder than others. I could probably EQ that via shelf under a certain frequency, but man, I'm really sensitive to that now..


----------



## Zedcars

At this rate it’s be easier if I just learn to play the flipping thing!


----------



## Zedcars

FireGS said:


> It's subharmonics. That peak at 500hz.
> 
> Edit: Wait, I'm playing B4, so that peak is actually the fundamental tone... but....? Why does it sound like this?
> 
> EDIT2: OK, every single Violin from every library I own is doing this. I've ruined myself. It's not the library's fault.


You probably just need a break. Lol


----------



## Noeticus

Apparently listening closely is the problem. (not that there aren't real problems.)

Hyper-focusing etc. has become a sport on Vi-Control.


----------



## artomatic

So okay, I've listened to just about every demos of this library, including the ones from the users, etc.
I've had very high hopes since the first time I heard about MSS.
I've read the whole 159 pages since November of 2020. I do love Genesis and Lass 2.5. 
I also own most of the major string libraries so I'm mostly covered...
But alas, because of particular glaring negatives I've read and _listened_ to, I will pass. 
I mean $549 is a chunk of change.
But I'm now ready to take on another "Voyage".
Good luck, you guys!


----------



## Evans

artomatic said:


> So okay, I've listened to just about every demos of this library, including the ones from the users, etc.
> I've had very high hopes since the first time I heard about MSS.
> I've read the whole 159 pages since November of 2020. I do love Genesis and Lass 2.5.
> I also own most of the major string libraries so I'm mostly covered...
> But alas, because of particular glaring negatives I've read and _listened_ to, I will pass.
> I mean $549 is a chunk of change.
> But I'm now ready to take on another "Voyage".
> Good luck, you guys!


Okay thanks


----------



## biomuse

artomatic said:


> So okay, I've listened to just about every demos of this library, including the ones from the users, etc.
> I've had very high hopes since the first time I heard about MSS.
> I've read the whole 159 pages since November of 2020. I do love Genesis and Lass 2.5.
> I also own most of the major string libraries so I'm mostly covered...
> But alas, because of particular glaring negatives I've read and _listened_ to, I will pass.
> I mean $549 is a chunk of change.
> But I'm now ready to take on another "Voyage".
> Good luck, you guys!


I’m generally in the same boat, but this conclusion seems strikingly premature.
Most of these 159 pages were written before the library was even released.
Audiobro always targets flexibility as a top priority, and that often means that more technique is needed to get a particular desired sound; but it does not mean that the sound is unachievable. This thing has been out for a few days. People are still figuring it out.

I‘m also swooning over the Vista & Voyage demos, but trying to exercise a little restraint; you know as well as I do that if you aren’t doing MAX EMOTION TO 11, those libraries may not fit the bill.


----------



## Noeticus

Just a reminder. 

Acquiring all the String Libraries in the world is the goal, not using them.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

My


Wunderhorn said:


> It still happens constantly with Cinebrass and LASS occasionally as well as some OT Capsule instruments.


I've never had hanging notes with any of those 3 libraries

I will say literally every person I see complain about hanging notes is on logic though


----------



## Ryan Fultz

amadeus1 said:


> Mac users will be confused if you mention F5 for refreshing a browser page. Doesn't work on macs, its cmd r for mac users.


Its just slang you aren't familiar with, younger mac users (such as myself and those younger than me) understand what is meant. No one who is 18 and exclusively been a mac user their entire life will be confused.

I haven't used a PC in about 17 years, I never used F5 to refresh a page when I did have a PC, I understand what people mean because its just the vernacular of the times.

When someone says "that sounds cool" we don't think it to mean it has something to do with temperature, this is the same kind of thing.

This is just a worldwide, culturally understood term that has no relation to the actual function of an F5 key vs. Cmd+R. Just a common saying that's been in use for over 10 years at this point.


----------



## Evans

Ryan Fultz said:


> When someone says "that sounds cool" we don't think it to mean it has something to do with temperature, this is the same kind of thing.


Love it. 

Also see: disk icon to represent Save. It's just in our collective culture.


----------



## Denkii

Ryan Fultz said:


> Its just slang you aren't familiar with, younger mac users (such as myself and those younger than me) understand what is meant. No one who is 18 and exclusively been a mac user their entire life will be confused.
> 
> I haven't used a PC in about 17 years, I never used F5 to refresh a page when I did have a PC, I understand what people mean because its just the vernacular of the times.
> 
> When someone says "that sounds cool" we don't think it to mean it has something to do with temperature, this is the same kind of thing.
> 
> This is just a worldwide, culturally understood term that has no relation to the actual function of an F5 key vs. Cmd+R. Just a common saying that's been in use for over 10 years at this point.


I can attest that it does not work both ways however. I grew up with PCs and used a Mac occasionally but I would not know what anyone means if they told me to to CMD+R.

However I am glad that on Windows, ALT+Q does not close the active window.

What about alt+f4? That a thing on MacOS or is that literally CMD+Q?
Do Mac users still say alt f4?
CMD Q does not flow well...


----------



## Bollen

Evans said:


> Love it.
> 
> Also see: disk icon to represent Save. It's just in our collective culture.


Or worst yet, a floppy disk!!!


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

FireGS said:


> It's subharmonics. That peak at 500hz.
> 
> Edit: Wait, I'm playing B4, so that peak is actually the fundamental tone... but....? Why does it sound like this?
> 
> EDIT2: OK, every single Violin from every library I own is doing this. I've ruined myself. It's not the library's fault.
> 
> EDIT3: I just checked a bunch of libraries, and indeed, this one's fundamentals are a bit louder than others. I could probably EQ that via shelf under a certain frequency, but man, I'm really sensitive to that now..


Ok i feel better now cause i couln't hear any wrong. lol


----------



## FireGS

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Ok i feel better now cause i couln't hear any wrong. lol


Im starting suspect that my hearing may be damaged worse than I thought. That, or I should go to bed.


----------



## Denkii

FireGS said:


> Im starting suspect that my hearing may be damaged worse than I thought. That, or I should go to bed.


Why not both?


----------



## Soundbed

muziksculp said:


> I don't own MSS, but I think MSS Ostinatos sound much more realistic, and smoother than your demo.
> 
> I'm surprised no one is posting some videos, or demos using it so far. But mostly discussing legato, and solo violin.



I've been working on an ostinatos video this whole time, but got distracted with the Schindler's challenge...


----------



## artomatic

biomuse said:


> I’m generally in the same boat, but this conclusion seems strikingly premature.
> Most of these 159 pages were written before the library was even released.
> Audiobro always targets flexibility as a top priority, and that often means that more technique is needed to get a particular desired sound; but it does not mean that the sound is unachievable. This thing has been out for a few days. People are still figuring it out.
> 
> I‘m also swooning over the Vista & Voyage demos, but trying to exercise a little restraint; you know as well as I do that if you aren’t doing MAX EMOTION TO 11, those libraries may not fit the bill.



Perhaps it is for you or 99% of the folks here.
But that is my personal decision, not at all generalized.
I am in awe of how detailed Audiobros is, providing users with countless editing abilities and options.
However, with all of that, it still comes to the overall sound for me - texture, tone, etc.
I was just hoping for something that isn't there, for me.
I'm no way bashing Audiobro or its users. It's a personal pref.
... It just doesn't fit my bill, no pun.


----------



## dzilizzi

Noeticus said:


> Just a reminder.
> 
> Acquiring all the String Libraries in the world is the goal, not using them.


I'm trying, I'm trying.....


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

FireGS said:


> Im starting suspect that my hearing may be damaged worse than I thought. That, or I should go to bed.


I'm guessing you're tired like i am...


----------



## dxmachina

> @dxmachina are there videos scheduled for the expanded legatos and sound of the individual divisi? Especially the latter... the sound of the smaller single sections is a buy-or-not decision factor for me.


@Trevor Meier Expanded Legato video is definitely planned as are a couple other things. But we're also taking stock of what reactions we're seeing/hearing to figure out what more folks want to see/hear. Right now things are expectedly crazy but I do hear you regarding individual divisi, and also those who would like a demo video with a dryer sound. Both make sense.

I haven't gotten into the scotch yet, but I might send a bottle to @FireGS so that he doesn't see Ozone when he closes his eyes.


----------



## muziksculp

dxmachina said:


> @Trevor Meier Expanded Legato video is definitely planned as are a couple other things. But we're also taking stock of what reactions we're seeing/hearing to figure out what more folks want to see/hear. Right now things are expectedly crazy but I do hear you regarding individual divisi, and also those who would like a demo video with a dryer sound. Both make sense.
> 
> I haven't gotten into the scotch yet, but I might send a bottle to @FireGS so that he doesn't see Ozone when he closes his eyes.


Hi @dxmachina ,

Given some MSS users, and potential users are criticizing the legatos of the main library, maybe you can shed some light on the legato functionality, and how best to go about using it in MSS. 

This is one of the details that is holding me back from buying the library. So, I think it will be useful for a dedicated video about the legatos in MSS. 

Looking forward to watch the new videos.  

Thanks.


----------



## method1

Just had a quick play through after installing, took me a few minutes to get my bearings 
Wow, really unique library, lots of cool details and I really like the sound of the stage mics.
Switching to mono legato helped me get used to the feel of the legato, I quite like it!

One small suggestion, being able to click on the names instead of having to use the slider to select things would be welcome, eg in the shorts section, having to use the slider slows things down unnecessarily.


----------



## Russell Anderson

FireGS said:


> EDIT3: I just checked a bunch of libraries, and indeed, this one's fundamentals are a bit louder than others. I could probably EQ that via shelf under a certain frequency, but man, I'm really sensitive to that now..


There are ways you can create midi-input modulation for an EQ filter to EQ out the fundamental frequency of whatever note you're inputting via MIDI. Once you get it setup, it's done forever, just load it in conjunction with MSS.

That is, if it's still bothering you in the morning, lol.


----------



## Soundbed

method1 said:


> One small suggestion, being able to click on the names instead of having to use the slider to select things would be welcome, eg in the shorts section, having to use the slider slows things down unnecessarily.


Being able to click on the name instead of dragging the sliders is my #1 usability request!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Okay, it's been several pages since, and maybe we're over this demo, but I decided to flesh out as many options as I cared to explore. It's not exhaustive, but there are now 47 different versions of this SAME SHORT SNIPPET. I haven't even listened to them all, but I've included FCs, A and B sections separately, with and without reverb. I'm probably forgetting something but I've just been sitting here exporting audio for the past hour so I'll let someone else listen and decide what any of it means.

Oh, and I decided to revisit the original CSS/S files and include Con Sord, FC, and verbless versions. Cheers!









MSS Demos


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





Also, @dxmachina, I DO love the solo strings! I can hear the intention behind them as first chairs, and this is a point I want to make separately: too often in chamber libraries, I hear a small string section + a very obvious section leader. This is such a distracting sound. You hear a great chamber sound AND a very distracting soloist's vibrato. What I appreciate about this library, and the FC's in particular, is that it blends seamlessly. CSS/S are the only other libraries that do this for me. So thank you!

Sidenote: if you look at the list of files and squint, it resembles HWS' patch list. Double the fun! I need sleep.


----------



## Bollen

Duncan Krummel said:


> Okay, it's been several pages since, and maybe we're over this demo, but I decided to flesh out as many options as I cared to explore. It's not exhaustive, but there are now 47 different versions of this SAME SHORT SNIPPET. I haven't even listened to them all, but I've included FCs, A and B sections separately, with and without reverb. I'm probably forgetting something but I've just been sitting here exporting audio for the past hour so I'll let someone else listen and decide what any of it means.
> 
> Oh, and I decided to revisit the original CSS/S files and include Con Sord, FC, and verbless versions. Cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, @dxmachina, I DO love the solo strings! I can hear the intention behind them as first chairs, and this is a point I want to make separately: too often in chamber libraries, I hear a small string section + a very obvious section leader. This is such a distracting sound. You hear a great chamber sound AND a very distracting soloist's vibrato. What I appreciate about this library, and the FC's in particular, is that it blends seamlessly. CSS/S are the only other libraries that do this for me. So thank you!
> 
> Sidenote: if you look at the list of files and squint, it resembles HWS' patch list. Double the fun! I need sleep.


Oh dear! As a string player I have to say I find the FCs (both intuition and standard) offensive... 😜. The rest is not bad.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Bollen said:


> Oh dear! As a string player I have to say I find the FCs (both intuition and standard) offensive... 😜. The rest is not bad.


What is about them that bugs you? The playing style? It'd be good to hear whether you think they need to be more soloistic to contrast what Duncan was saying, or the timbre/room sound, or if you think the cc1 could have been smoother or something


----------



## molemac

Noeticus said:


> Just a reminder.
> 
> Acquiring all the String Libraries in the world is the goal, not using them.


Or suddenly remembering that you have them, having not used them for years and thinking, oh yea that one might be good for this cue and after trying it for 5 mins, going nah, it’s a no good. If only Spitfire and Audiobro and Alex and Jasper could join forces then we might have a library that was recorded in the best studios with the best players (spitfire) with the best innovation MSS) best legato (CSS) and apparently the best programming (Performance samples). Sorry for any I left out but you get the gist.


----------



## Bollen

Russell Anderson said:


> What is about them that bugs you? The playing style? It'd be good to hear whether you think they need to be more soloistic to contrast what Duncan was saying or what it is exactly you're thinking, or if you think the cc1 could have been smoother or something


It's really difficult to put my finger on it, but I will say this: the main body of the sustain is beautiful, the rest is terrible and sounds like a sample library from 10-15 years ago. The legato of the Intuition really stands out as fake-ass, sounds scripted. Vibrato also sounds too perfect and mechanical. As for the standard: they have different problems, one thing that really bums me is the unrealistic dynamic, strings just don't sound like that. The vibrato also doesn't seem to change as they go down. I'm also not hearing any rebow, but that may be down to the programming... The legato is very sketchy on this one, sometimes sounds OK, others sounds bizarre, can't explain why.


----------



## FireGS

Russell Anderson said:


> There are ways you can create midi-input modulation for an EQ filter to EQ out the fundamental frequency of whatever note you're inputting via MIDI. Once you get it setup, it's done forever, just load it in conjunction with MSS.
> 
> That is, if it's still bothering you in the morning, lol.


In Kontakt? Or?


----------



## Soundbed

Here's some explorations of the ostinatos in various instruments in various ranges. I don't want to say too much on the sound itself yet, although I have my own impressions. What are yours?



Oh! And I was changing tempo while the ostinatos played. Almost forgot that was one of the main things I wanted to explore. Could not get certain tempo changes to "work" at all; if the pattern goes on too long across some tempo map changes there was sort of a re-start of the pattern at some point even with auto and sync options off. So I simply chose tempo changes that didn't have that issue.

I started with the out of box reverbs, turned them off, them move to close mics with no EQ (mostly ... I accidentally found some exceptions while editing the video ... taking care of every detail takes time and you're an eager bunch).

Mod wheel was in the middle two velocity layers; probably mp<mf>mp or so in most cases.

The Basses don't have ostinato so I wrote notes.

I haven't fully figured out how the "Smart" ostinato tool chooses pitches ... might have to rewatch the video... I had Smart on for Violins, Violas, Cellos but wasn't understanding how it was choosing notes. So I wrote the woodwind and bass notes to match (not the other way around).

Ideally I would have taken time to write Violins A going UP (or down) and Violins B going the opposite direction and so on but I was having some sort of challenge, can't remember what, so I started over letting the engine decide which notes to pick and assign to which divisi etc.

As I mentioned many pages back, getting OUT OF the ostinatos presents a bit of a challenge. I dovetailed short chords using the Ensemble patch to help sew the transitions together a bit... the CSW woodwinds help a lot more, though, I think. I'd like a way to easily "continue" an ostinato phrase. As I mentioned in my previous post I cannot find a way to key switch over to sustains / legato without either cutting off the end of the ostinato or having an audible "gap" (more details in previous post).

Of course these notes represent more of an "exercise" rather than "a piece".

Got to take a break but the video is uploading now...

I have some overall impressions recorded in a notepad and I'll share them eventually. The bottom line is you get out what you put in, to some extent. I wouldn't say it's an instant gratification type of thing. It seems like more of a "workhorse," for lack of a better word, in the sense that it will work for you but you need to work with it to get good results.

Another thing I've been exploring is the A.R.T. and the record MIDI output to drag to your track, which I think is a really cool feature. More on that soon!


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> Here's some explorations of the ostinatos in various instruments in various ranges. I don't want to say too much on the sound itself yet, although I have my own impressions. What are yours?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! And I was changing tempo while the ostinatos played. Almost forgot that was one of the main things I wanted to explore. Could not get certain tempo changes to "work" at all; if the pattern goes on to long across some tempo map changes there was sort of a re-start of the pattern at some point even with auto and sync options off. So I simply chose tempo changes that didn't have that issue.
> 
> I started with the out of box reverbs, turned them off, them move to close mics with no EQ (mostly ... I accidentally found some exceptions while editing the video ... taking care of every detail takes time and you're an eager bunch).
> 
> Mod wheel was in the middle two velocity layers; probably mp<mf>mp or so in most cases.
> 
> The Basses don't have ostinato so I wrote notes.
> 
> I haven't fully figured out how the "Smart" ostinato tool chooses pitches ... might have to rewatch the video... I had Smart on for Violins, Violas, Cellos but wasn't understanding how it was choosing notes. So I wrote the woodwind and bass notes to match (not the other way around).
> 
> Ideally I would have taken time to write Violins A going UP (or down) and Violins B going the opposite direction and so on but I was having some sort of challenge, can't remember what, so I started over letting the engine decide which notes to pick and assign to which divisi etc.
> 
> As I mentioned many pages back, getting OUT OF the ostinatos presents a bit of a challenge. I dovetailed short chords using the Ensemble patch to help sew the transitions together a bit... the CSW woodwinds help a lot more, though, I think. I'd like a way to easily "continue" an ostinato phrase. As I mentioned in my previous post I cannot find a way to key switch over to sustains / legato without either cutting off the end of the ostinato or having an audible "gap" (more details in previous post).
> 
> Of course these notes represent more of an "exercise" rather than "a piece".
> 
> Got to take a break but the video is uploading now...
> 
> I have some overall impressions recorded in a notepad and I'll share them eventually. The bottom line is you get out what you put in, to some extent. I wouldn't say it's an instant gratification type of thing. It seems like more of a "workhorse," for lack of a better word, in the sense that it will work for you but you need to work with it to get good results.
> 
> Another thing I've been exploring is the A.R.T. and the record MIDI output to drag to your track, which I think is a really cool feature. More on that soon!



You’re doing a mighty fine job for us thank you. When you have had a rest dont forget the Schindler’s challenge and the juju lips setting.


----------



## BasariStudios

Imagine if all of use wasted all of this Energy to learn to play
the Violin, Viola, Cello and Basess...then met somewhere in a Hall.


----------



## dzilizzi

Soundbed said:


> Here's some explorations of the ostinatos in various instruments in various ranges. I don't want to say too much on the sound itself yet, although I have my own impressions. What are yours?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! And I was changing tempo while the ostinatos played. Almost forgot that was one of the main things I wanted to explore. Could not get certain tempo changes to "work" at all; if the pattern goes on to long across some tempo map changes there was sort of a re-start of the pattern at some point even with auto and sync options off. So I simply chose tempo changes that didn't have that issue.
> 
> I started with the out of box reverbs, turned them off, them move to close mics with no EQ (mostly ... I accidentally found some exceptions while editing the video ... taking care of every detail takes time and you're an eager bunch).
> 
> Mod wheel was in the middle two velocity layers; probably mp<mf>mp or so in most cases.
> 
> The Basses don't have ostinato so I wrote notes.
> 
> I haven't fully figured out how the "Smart" ostinato tool chooses pitches ... might have to rewatch the video... I had Smart on for Violins, Violas, Cellos but wasn't understanding how it was choosing notes. So I wrote the woodwind and bass notes to match (not the other way around).
> 
> Ideally I would have taken time to write Violins A going UP (or down) and Violins B going the opposite direction and so on but I was having some sort of challenge, can't remember what, so I started over letting the engine decide which notes to pick and assign to which divisi etc.
> 
> As I mentioned many pages back, getting OUT OF the ostinatos presents a bit of a challenge. I dovetailed short chords using the Ensemble patch to help sew the transitions together a bit... the CSW woodwinds help a lot more, though, I think. I'd like a way to easily "continue" an ostinato phrase. As I mentioned in my previous post I cannot find a way to key switch over to sustains / legato without either cutting off the end of the ostinato or having an audible "gap" (more details in previous post).
> 
> Of course these notes represent more of an "exercise" rather than "a piece".
> 
> Got to take a break but the video is uploading now...
> 
> I have some overall impressions recorded in a notepad and I'll share them eventually. The bottom line is you get out what you put in, to some extent. I wouldn't say it's an instant gratification type of thing. It seems like more of a "workhorse," for lack of a better word, in the sense that it will work for you but you need to work with it to get good results.
> 
> Another thing I've been exploring is the A.R.T. and the record MIDI output to drag to your track, which I think is a really cool feature. More on that soon!



Thank you. This sounds good to me. Well, except maybe that last note. May need to use a different articulation or even track if you can't change from Ostinatos to sustain. 

From what I understand with the Smart tool, it will assign one note to the V1s and 2 to the V2s if you play a triad?


----------



## FireGS

I know I'm not crazy. Cello DivA. No CCs. Here's the settings, see if anyone can reproduce this:

View attachment LOTR Edit 2 Export 2.mp3












I'm playing pairs of C to C#, etc. I distinctly hear three samples play. The first note, the transition, and then it stops while another sample starts playing. Something is stopping the transition.

Bedtime.


----------



## dxmachina

@muziksculp Yes, I'm definitely seeing the comments. I've been holding off responding a little bit just because I think that (a) VI-C is a VERY good place to leave your ego at the door, and (b) it's okay that there are different opinions out there. All I would strongly caution against is making up your mind too quickly. This is a deep library, intended for the "long haul" and we may even still have a surprise or two. 
That said, I would urge anyone with concerns or strong opinions to send us an email. We take this stuff seriously... like all day every day seriously.

Speaking _just_ for myself, my strong preference is still for split divisi playing mono legato on separate tracks. Auto Divisi is kind of a fun inspiration tool, but I prefer the separate control. I mess with transition volume a fair amount, but not as much with legato speed (I find a value I like and generally stick with). Setting the Transition Speed to be slower is more or less what a few people in this thread have done with LASS... it pushes back earlier into the transition, which results in a little laggier a response, but more exposed transition. Pushing the value up higher does the opposite. Somewhat counterintuitively it can _sometimes_ help to make the transition "slower" when doing faster parts.

For those using the larger patches with multiple divisi, one thing to think about is the humanization settings that are going on. Usually this means adding some delay with randomization to the timing and/or pitch of one or more divisi sections. This can blur the transitions a bit, but if that's not desired just turn it off or find the spread that you like. I don't use it at all since I'm using separate MIDI tracks. 

I use the separate mics, turn off all processing and mix outside of Kontakt - leaning quite heavily on the Stage/Decca Tree. For artic switching, I'm pretty addicted to Articulation Sets in Logic.

Past that it's just getting a feel for the instruments, which I find to be true of any library.

Again, those are just my personal startup preferences for getting the sound I like. If there are any specific questions I am always happy to do my best to help. 



> One small suggestion, being able to click on the names instead of having to use the slider to select things would be welcome, eg in the shorts section, having to use the slider slows things down unnecessarily.





> Being able to click on the name instead of dragging the sliders is my #1 usability request!


Ok, this is noted for sure. I think we just felt like people were going to automate these anyway with CCs, host automation, key switches, or artic sets/expression maps. But I can definitely see the merits. I'll get our crack team of programmers on it... oh wait.


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> Imagine if all of use wasted all of this Energy to learn to play
> the Violin, Viola, Cello and Basess...then met somewhere in a Hall.


True but quite a few of us do already but like many of my sample libraries my violin only gets dusted off occasionally.


----------



## Russell Anderson

FireGS said:


> In Kontakt? Or?


After doing (a little bit of) research, checking Kilohearts snapins (MIDI follower modulation type to affect a filter), and the keyboard-mapping plugins within my own DAW (which seem to only affect a single octave, but I'm sure there are ways to work around it).... I'd recommend seeing if there's a way to do it in Kontakt, and if not, what DAW do you use? /Try making a post on the forums of your DAW's developer/here and asking about MIDI tracking modulation for a filter to lower the fundamental frequency.

I feel like this should be totally doable, but the easiest way I can think to do it otherwise is inside of spectral editing plugins which I just think is not going to be the solution you're after lol

I want to say you can just create a custom mapping wherein every note input is individually assigned to a freq value on an EQ via a mapping plugin, that's assuming that a logarithmic/Kontakt-based solution just doesn't end up working


----------



## dzilizzi

BasariStudios said:


> Imagine if all of use wasted all of this Energy to learn to play
> the Violin, Viola, Cello and Basess...then met somewhere in a Hall.


Unfortunately, I've inherited my mother's arthritis gene. Playing most instruments is getting painful. But I do have a cheap Chinese violin that may be children's size that I picked up from Goodwill. I mostly planned on recording noise I make with it and creating some sort of instrument with it in Kontakt just for the learning experience. But who knows. I could be a world famous violinist with it! 

Yeah, I will stick to collecting using VI's.


----------



## Soundbed

FireGS said:


> In Kontakt? Or?


Yes I think you can have a midi pitch drive an EQ frequency and then let the EQ pull down that freq. in Kontakt.


----------



## william81723

Though there are many different opinions in VI-control,MSS legato's script is "Crossfady" obviously compared to those heavy hitters in the market(CSS,Vista,NSS...).
I've already let "auto divisi" and all the room mics and IRs turned off.
The only close mic shows how blurry the transition is.


----------



## Soundbed

dzilizzi said:


> Thank you. This sounds good to me. Well, except maybe that last note. May need to use a different articulation or even track if you can't change from Ostinatos to sustain.
> 
> From what I understand with the Smart tool, it will assign one note to the V1s and 2 to the V2s if you play a triad?


It’s picking notes I’m not playing.

And you’re welcome, I hope it’s helpful. 

Yes I am thinking the workflow will need to be to use ostinatos and legatos in different tracks, always (no keyswitching between them).


----------



## dxmachina

> It’s picking notes I’m not playing.



If you use the "played" mode it will limit to your exact notes. Smart mode will play any chord. If your notes are available as destinations in the chosen direction it will play your notes... if not it will play in the direction chosen based on your key/tonality.


----------



## sourcefor

Does anybody know how I could get the articulations sets for Logic they didn’t seem to be included in the download, thanks!


----------



## Soundbed

> Ok, this is noted for sure. I think we just felt like people were going to automate these anyway with CCs, host automation, key switches, or artic sets/expression maps. But I can definitely see the merits. I'll get our crack team of programmers on it... oh wait.


Thanks!
Anything that will save me a mouse move is welcome. I’m almost always changing the legato control to slider. Because light velocities keep triggering unexpected gliss or port transitions. It’s easier than dragging both gliss and port velocity values to 1 and 2. Essentially I want to turn ON gliss (and port?) only when I want them. As mentioned the shorts is another example when I assumed clicking would be the quickest way to select a short (not dragging).


----------



## Soundbed

dxmachina said:


> If you use the "played" mode it will limit to your exact notes. Smart mode will play any chord. If your notes are available as destinations in the chosen direction it will play your notes... if not it will play in the direction chosen based on your key/tonality.


I think what was confusing was the notes it choose when the tonality switcher was off, and the key in the drop down was C maj, and the interval drop down was maj 2nd. 

Not playing chords only single notes. 

I recall it was choosing to move up a minor third to Eb when I played a C (single note). Or maybe E but still, why E? I would have thought it would move to D. Because maj 2nd. It was unaffected by the drop down for interval. And if I changed the interval drop down to minor 2nd I would have thought it would play a Db even though that’s not in Cmaj. In other words I would have thought Smart would follow the keys and intervals selected. Because they were “illuminated” and not “dimmed” I guess. 

This continued when I did play chords; I was wondering how it was picking the notes because with tonality off and C Maj or C min and 2nds in the drop downs what I played made me feel like it must be smarter than me. Even when I played Fm7. It might be that something will “click” when I understand it better.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @dxmachina,

Thanks for your helpful feedback, and tips. I didn't buy the library yet, trying to digest all the features, info., and feedback from the various videos, and user feedback, before I jump into this very deep strings library.



dxmachina said:


> This is a deep library, intended for the "long haul" and we may even still have a surprise or two.


I wasn't expecting this, so you have more magic tricks to share with us. 



dxmachina said:


> Speaking _just_ for myself, my strong preference is still for split divisi playing mono legato on separate tracks. Auto Divisi is kind of a fun inspiration tool, but I prefer the separate control.


Interesting. So, you use it more as a traditional legato section library that has no auto-divisi, but offers smaller divisi-sections, Sure, that gives you more control. It's like using LASS without the Auto-Divisi Feature.



dxmachina said:


> For those using the larger patches with multiple divisi, one thing to think about is the humanization settings that are going on. Usually this means adding some delay with randomization to the timing and/or pitch of one or more divisi sections. This can blur the transitions a bit, but if that's not desired just turn it off or find the spread that you like. I don't use it at all since I'm using separate MIDI tracks.


That's a valuable tip. Thanks.



dxmachina said:


> I use the separate mics, turn off all processing and mix outside of Kontakt - leaning quite heavily on the Stage/Decca Tree


Why not the Close Mics ?

Q. I know you will be releasing LASS 3 later this year, is that because it will take that long to complete it, or are you working on other projects that require your more immediate attention, hence delaying LASS 3 ? Oh .. No pressure to answer this question. I was just curious.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## dxmachina

> I think what was confusing was the notes it choose when the tonality switcher was off, and the key in the drop down was C maj, and the interval drop down was maj 2nd.


That menu is completely inactive when using the Played/Smart modes. It only becomes active when using the manual (menu) mode... so you can choose the exact interval if you want to do everything from scratch. Otherwise the Smart mode is usually prioritizing 3rds in general over seconds - but always obeying your chosen key tonality. It's definitely the most "Assisted" mode, but you can do some pretty fun things with it. The Played mode is a nice compromise since it will only play the notes you're using. It's just more limited in terms of the chords it can resolve.



> Why not the Close Mics ?


I like them around -8dB on the Vlns mixed with Decca, but that's really all to taste of course.



> I know you will be releasing LASS 3 later this year, is that because it will take that long to complete it,


Right now we're still concentrating on MSS launch and probably an update or two. MSB will be updated with some fixes and newer engine features. And then LASS3 after that. It's a fair bit of work to port that whole library, so I would guess later on in the year. Past that my lips are sealed.


----------



## curtisschweitzer

Wunderhorn said:


> Unfortunnately, it is a pretty useless video. He's riding the mod wheel almost constantly and immediately to the max. Something that you would only do in rare moments with these articulations like sord, sul tasto and sul pont.
> Therefore it does not really represent the actual sound character of the extended legatos at all.


I think this is a useful critique! A couple of notes on it:

I'd point out that I was finding the upper (120-127) layer of dynamics more tonally rich and detailed and wanted to bring that out. Stilll, looking at the project file right now, you're right-- spending way too much time up there for a real good look at the full range. Will try to keep that in mind for next time-- as well as the fact that my stuff can end up here on VIC (which I was *not* expecting!).

AudioBro reached out to me for some feedback, which I thought was just so nice of them. I am totally excited to see them integrating all sorts of useful critiques from lots of people-- especially here on VIC. I think the library is really great, and has a lot to offer that you just don't get anywhere else.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Yes, their continued engagement in this discussion (which can't be easy at times) has me won over even more ... so much so I'll be pulling the trigger on this tonight.


----------



## Soundbed

Soundbed said:


> I think what was confusing was ...


Had to go back to the studio to figure this out.

So, it seems that *this is the formula for the ostinato tools*. (This might already be documented elsewhere, but I needed to play with a clear head to figure it out for myself.)

Menu: ignores the key and tonality drop-downs. obeys the interval drop-down. If you play a single note, out of key/tonality, the engine will chose an oscillating / alternating note in the key/tonality in the direction selected.

@dxmachina I'd suggest "dimming" the key and tonality words and drop down values when this slider value is selected, if feasible. Having them "illuminated" confuses my GUI sensibilities.

2nd and 3rd: both selections ignore the interval drop down. both obey the key and tonality drop downs. If you play a single note, out of key/tonality, the engine will chose the note in the key/tonality in the direction selected. I'd suggest "dimming" the interval word and drop down values when this slider is selected, if feasible.

Played: requires at least two notes. ignores key, tonality and interval drop downs. I'd suggest "dimming" all three words and drop downs, because they are not applicable in this mode.

Smart: ignores the interval drop down. obeys the key and tonality drop downs, and with no additional information the engine plays a 3rd in the key/tonality in the direction selected ("if available"). I'd suggest "dimming" the interval word and drop down menu if feasible.






[EDIT] of course I read this too late! 



> That menu is completely inactive when using the Played/Smart modes. It only becomes active when using the manual (menu) mode... so you can choose the exact interval if you want to do everything from scratch. Otherwise the Smart mode is usually prioritizing 3rds in general over seconds - but always obeying your chosen key tonality. It's definitely the most "Assisted" mode, but you can do some pretty fun things with it. The Played mode is a nice compromise since it will only play the notes you're using. It's just more limited in terms of the chords it can resolve.


----------



## Noc

muziksculp said:


> Q. I know you will be releasing LASS 3 later this year, is that because it will take that long to complete it, or are you working on other projects that require your more immediate attention, hence delaying LASS 3


True story, I was gonna offer my guess that the Audiobro team were probably dedicating the first part of the year to MSS post-launch patches and updates and would then start the huge job of porting LASS over to the new engine later, but then I dropped something on the keyboard and the page refreshed, and @dxmachina had already posted pretty much that exact answer. Sniped!

More seriously, I wanna take a moment to doff my hat to @dxmachina for being a gentleman and a scholar in keeping this crazy thread constantly updated throughout all this and addressing people’s questions and concerns with the utmost tact and cool, even with all the mixed feelings so far.  That kind of responsiveness is one reason I plan to buy the library soon – even if it’s a little rough around the edges right now, I have no doubt (especially knowing from experience with LASS) it’ll only be improved as time goes on.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I still feel like I keep hearing people not turn off auto divisi and they aren't getting legato transitions because they don't understand the script. 

I don't own MSS, but it's been stated - and mss wants the OPPOSITE of most libraries when it comes to overlap


----------



## muziksculp

The Professionalism, and contribution of @dxmachina on this forum is impressive, and has made me have more faith in this library, I think it is just a matter of time, and I will end up buying it. 

Also the fact that LASS 3 will be out later this year, is another exciting event for me, especially since I own LASS & LS. But have not used them. I'm also curious how much will the upgrade from LASS 2.5 & LS to LASS 3 cost ? 

They are also planning on updating MSS, maybe with even more features, or improvements, which is very encouraging.


----------



## Zedcars

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Ok i feel better now cause i couln't hear any wrong. lol


I feel worse now cause I couldn’t hear anything wrong until I forced myself to hear something wrong after multiple listens after being told something was wrong and now it seems the only thing wrong is me! It’s all wrong!


----------



## muziksculp

ProfoundSilence said:


> I don't own MSS, but it's been stated - and mss wants the OPPOSITE of most libraries when it comes to overlap


I think that is true only when Auto-Divisi in enabled.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Zedcars said:


> I feel worse now cause I couldn’t hear anything wrong until I forced myself to hear something wrong after multiple listens after being told something was wrong and now it seems the only thing wrong is me! It’s all wrong!


The placebo effect is real. It can happen to anyone. 
I thought couldn't hear anything because i was tired...


----------



## william81723

Here is a simiple comparison of two similar script libraries——MSS & Chris hein.(MSS close mic VS dry CH)
Both of them are based on sampling and can change the transition's speed.
MSS's legato is relatively crossfady all the way.


----------



## Soundbed

william81723 said:


> Here is a simiple comparison of two similar script libraries——MSS & Chris hein.(MSS close mic VS dry CH)
> Both of them are based on sampling and can change the transition's speed.
> MSS's legato is relatively crossfady all the way.


Well, if you have those settings ... here's the same notes in MSS with different settings:


----------



## Russell Anderson

Soundbed said:


> Well, if you have those settings ... here's the same notes in MSS with different settings:


Did you do the counterintuitive thing dxmachina suggested and lower the transition speed? because the difference was very noticable

although now I'm a little wigged out by the identical vibrato "envelopes" lol, but I'd be curious to see if there's a violin sample that wouldn't behave that way. Chris Hein's was sample-obvious as well... I don't envy library developers


----------



## Soundbed

Russell Anderson said:


> Did you do the counterintuitive thing dxmachina suggested and lower the transition speed? because the difference was very noticable


No, I didn't touch the transition speed.


----------



## Soundbed

I just realized there's EQ presets.


----------



## dhowarthmusic

For those of you who don’t own the library yet I just discovered this walkthrough video on YouTube for the extended library.


----------



## Zedcars

dhowarthmusic said:


> For those of you who don’t own the library yet I just discovered this walkthrough video on YouTube for the extended library.



Thank you. It was mentioned a couple of times on page 154. Unfortunately it looks like he made the same mistake as others and left AD on while playing mono legato style. Also mod wheel left mostly high.


----------



## Soundbed

I can get the MSS Cello Spiccatos sounding almost like LASS with some internal EQ changes, but so far I still prefer LASS -- it's my favorite for cello Spiccato and I guess it will remain that way. For tonight. 

@dxmachina feature request: could the default position for EQ gain be 0dB ? (i.e., CTRL+Click on Mac) It's going to -18dB and the "clean" presets go to the lowest values for all EQs also.


----------



## Zedcars

I keep double clicking the mixer volume amount to change it but it does nothing. Mentioned before so hopefully this will get addressed. Very tedious using the slider when setting up multiple patches.

Also, I’ve noticed an EQ remains on even when you turn them all off in the main UI. I clicked on the spanner and saw one still activated in the Kontakt edit screen. Anyone else confirm this?


----------



## dhowarthmusic

Zedcars said:


> Thank you. It was mentioned a couple of times on page 154. Unfortunately it looks like he made the same mistake as others and left AD on while playing mono legato style. Also mod wheel left mostly high


What happens when you leave the AD on compared to turning it off for mono playing? Is it smoother when it is turned off?


----------



## Batrawi

dhowarthmusic said:


> What happens when you leave the AD on compared to turning it off for mono playing? Is it smoother when it is turned off?


when ON and you intend to play a mono line faster than a certain ms window, the script will be confused and translate that you want to play chords/multiple notes instead.


----------



## Zedcars

dhowarthmusic said:


> What happens when you leave the AD on compared to turning it off for mono playing? Is it smoother when it is turned off?


It depends on the playing style. If it’s on then you should not overlap notes. If off then you can overlap notes as you would in a normal legato playing style. I don’t think you get the transition samples triggered in the correct way if you overlap notes in AD mode. Not 100% on the ramifications but it sounds better if you adhere to the appropriate playing style with each mode.

EDIT: ^ Not quite correct: Overlapping notes in AD mode is ok, but it shouldn’t be used as if it is a normal legato patch. More of a sketching tool I think.


----------



## Ritchie

Does anyone know what the _recommended _system requirements are? The minimum requirements seem, well, low for something like this.

I’m running a 3.2ghz quad-core i5 with 32gb RAM and a SSD, but given the features of MSS, I’m not convinced my system will run it smoothly, particularly once I start adding in additional instruments.


----------



## dhowarthmusic

Does anyone know if you get full ensemble patches for the Sordino, Sul Tasto, Sul Pont and normal patches for sketching? I don’t see any mention of them on the Audiobro website as it only lists the separate sections.

Also does the ostinato feature work for Sordino, Sul tasto and Sul pont as well as the normal articulation?


----------



## Soundbed

Zedcars said:


> I keep double clicking the mixer volume amount to change it but it does nothing. Mentioned before so hopefully this will get addressed. Very tedious using the slider when setting up multiple patches.


If you're trying to reset it, try CMD or CTRL clicking it instead of double clicking it.



dhowarthmusic said:


> Does anyone know if you get full ensemble patches for the Sordino, Sul Tasto, Sul Pont and normal patches for sketching?
> 
> Also does the ostinato feature work for Sordino, Sul tasto and Sul pont as well as the normal articulation?


No there is no "Ensemble" in the Expanded Legato.
No the ostinatos all have one bow technique.


----------



## dhowarthmusic

Soundbed said:


> If you're trying to reset it, try CMD or CTRL clicking it instead of double clicking it.
> 
> 
> No there is no "Ensemble" in the Expanded Legato.
> No the ostinatos all have one bow technique.


Are there any ensemble patches in the full library for the normal, Sul tasto and Sordino Sustains?


----------



## Zedcars

Soundbed said:


> If you're trying to reset it, try CMD or CTRL clicking it instead of double clicking it.


Thanks, but not trying to reset it just edit the value. In Cubase and most other interfaces I know of you can usually double click on a value to edit it so it’s kind of ingrained in me to do that.


----------



## Soundbed

Zedcars said:


> Thanks, but not trying to reset it just edit the value. In Cubase and most other interfaces I know of you can usually double click on a value to edit it so it’s kind of ingrained in me to do that.


Yes I’d like to be able to text edit all numerical values as well. Sorry I misunderstood what you wanted to accomplish.


----------



## Soundbed

dhowarthmusic said:


> Are there any ensemble patches in the full library for the normal, Sul tasto and Sordino Sustains?


Yes but I think they are simulated (EQ etc.). Someone else should confirm but I think I remember that from one of the videos.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

dxmachina said:


> @muziksculp Yes, I'm definitely seeing the comments. I've been holding off responding a little bit just because I think that (a) VI-C is a VERY good place to leave your ego at the door, and (b) it's okay that there are different opinions out there. All I would strongly caution against is making up your mind too quickly. This is a deep library, intended for the "long haul" and we may even still have a surprise or two.
> That said, I would urge anyone with concerns or strong opinions to send us an email. We take this stuff seriously... like all day every day seriously.
> 
> Speaking _just_ for myself, my strong preference is still for split divisi playing mono legato on separate tracks. Auto Divisi is kind of a fun inspiration tool, but I prefer the separate control. I mess with transition volume a fair amount, but not as much with legato speed (I find a value I like and generally stick with). Setting the Transition Speed to be slower is more or less what a few people in this thread have done with LASS... it pushes back earlier into the transition, which results in a little laggier a response, but more exposed transition. Pushing the value up higher does the opposite. Somewhat counterintuitively it can _sometimes_ help to make the transition "slower" when doing faster parts.
> 
> For those using the larger patches with multiple divisi, one thing to think about is the humanization settings that are going on. Usually this means adding some delay with randomization to the timing and/or pitch of one or more divisi sections. This can blur the transitions a bit, but if that's not desired just turn it off or find the spread that you like. I don't use it at all since I'm using separate MIDI tracks.
> 
> I use the separate mics, turn off all processing and mix outside of Kontakt - leaning quite heavily on the Stage/Decca Tree. For artic switching, I'm pretty addicted to Articulation Sets in Logic.
> 
> Past that it's just getting a feel for the instruments, which I find to be true of any library.
> 
> Again, those are just my personal startup preferences for getting the sound I like. If there are any specific questions I am always happy to do my best to help.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, this is noted for sure. I think we just felt like people were going to automate these anyway with CCs, host automation, key switches, or artic sets/expression maps. But I can definitely see the merits. I'll get our crack team of programmers on it... oh wait.


Thank you very much for answering! This is important information (e.g. playing split divisi), and needs another video on your website. I think the majority will probably never use auto-divisi, because it’s a different playing style/approach; even if this is the killer feature of the library.

I know you wanted to show auto-divisi in action. An in-depth-video on monophonic legato would be welcome, especially with all the editing possibilities.


----------



## Raphioli

william81723 said:


> Here is a simiple comparison of two similar script libraries——MSS & Chris hein.(MSS close mic VS dry CH)
> Both of them are based on sampling and can change the transition's speed.
> MSS's legato is relatively crossfady all the way.


I get what your saying and thx for the comparison.

@dxmachina 
I hope you can release an update that fixes this (improving legato scripting)
This is probably making the legato patch sound close to a sustain patch.


----------



## yellow_lupine

Duncan Krummel said:


> Okay, it's been several pages since, and maybe we're over this demo, but I decided to flesh out as many options as I cared to explore. It's not exhaustive, but there are now 47 different versions of this SAME SHORT SNIPPET. I haven't even listened to them all, but I've included FCs, A and B sections separately, with and without reverb. I'm probably forgetting something but I've just been sitting here exporting audio for the past hour so I'll let someone else listen and decide what any of it means.
> 
> Oh, and I decided to revisit the original CSS/S files and include Con Sord, FC, and verbless versions. Cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, @dxmachina, I DO love the solo strings! I can hear the intention behind them as first chairs, and this is a point I want to make separately: too often in chamber libraries, I hear a small string section + a very obvious section leader. This is such a distracting sound. You hear a great chamber sound AND a very distracting soloist's vibrato. What I appreciate about this library, and the FC's in particular, is that it blends seamlessly. CSS/S are the only other libraries that do this for me. So thank you!
> 
> Sidenote: if you look at the list of files and squint, it resembles HWS' patch list. Double the fun! I need sleep.


Many thanks for the great work you did with that.

Comparing the various files I must say I prefer CSS + FC. It's more emotional while MSS is more sterile, without life. Yes, it is kind of more detailed, but it doesn't "sing", at least to me and for this kind of music.


----------



## novaburst

Bollen said:


> It's really difficult to put my finger on it, but I


This is the normal answer for those that really don't have a reason to put something down but hay


----------



## jamwerks

Soundbed said:


> Here's some explorations of the ostinatos in various instruments in various ranges. I don't want to say too much on the sound itself yet, although I have my own impressions. What are yours?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! And I was changing tempo while the ostinatos played. Almost forgot that was one of the main things I wanted to explore. Could not get certain tempo changes to "work" at all; if the pattern goes on too long across some tempo map changes there was sort of a re-start of the pattern at some point even with auto and sync options off. So I simply chose tempo changes that didn't have that issue.
> 
> I started with the out of box reverbs, turned them off, them move to close mics with no EQ (mostly ... I accidentally found some exceptions while editing the video ... taking care of every detail takes time and you're an eager bunch).
> 
> Mod wheel was in the middle two velocity layers; probably mp<mf>mp or so in most cases.
> 
> The Basses don't have ostinato so I wrote notes.
> 
> I haven't fully figured out how the "Smart" ostinato tool chooses pitches ... might have to rewatch the video... I had Smart on for Violins, Violas, Cellos but wasn't understanding how it was choosing notes. So I wrote the woodwind and bass notes to match (not the other way around).
> 
> Ideally I would have taken time to write Violins A going UP (or down) and Violins B going the opposite direction and so on but I was having some sort of challenge, can't remember what, so I started over letting the engine decide which notes to pick and assign to which divisi etc.
> 
> As I mentioned many pages back, getting OUT OF the ostinatos presents a bit of a challenge. I dovetailed short chords using the Ensemble patch to help sew the transitions together a bit... the CSW woodwinds help a lot more, though, I think. I'd like a way to easily "continue" an ostinato phrase. As I mentioned in my previous post I cannot find a way to key switch over to sustains / legato without either cutting off the end of the ostinato or having an audible "gap" (more details in previous post).
> 
> Of course these notes represent more of an "exercise" rather than "a piece".
> 
> Got to take a break but the video is uploading now...
> 
> I have some overall impressions recorded in a notepad and I'll share them eventually. The bottom line is you get out what you put in, to some extent. I wouldn't say it's an instant gratification type of thing. It seems like more of a "workhorse," for lack of a better word, in the sense that it will work for you but you need to work with it to get good results.
> 
> Another thing I've been exploring is the A.R.T. and the record MIDI output to drag to your track, which I think is a really cool feature. More on that soon!



Thanks for that. Strings too FFF to my ears for this passage. Too much close mic on Basses. Overall sounds great. Beautiful with CSWW.


----------



## star.keys

This library sounds fantastic. Not for keyboard warriors who want to bang the keys to expect a strings symphony to happen. this library will force people to learn proper strings writing.

I also like their no-nonsense marketing and demonstration approach which focuses on the product than the presenter or the brand. Also, their demonstrations are so much musical and inspiring.


----------



## Casiquire

Edit for anyone going back through and reading this thread: so many of my thoughts have changed since the library updated that most of this post is no longer valid. The library takes way less work to get a good performance now. I left my original thoughts below, but read further to see how things have changed.

--

I'm starting to gather a lot of thoughts on the Extended Legato library, and getting an impression of what this library is and what it isn't supposed to be. This will be a long one. I'm really leaning into that reputation for being a know-it-all who doesn't know when to stop talking

First, it is not Audiobro's version of CSS. LASS is Audiobro's version of CSS (or vice versa, I suppose). LASS is heavy vibrato, lots of expression, the default legato holds up today and if you use the Pixelpoet legato trick it's still one of the best legatos on the market. If you're looking for the Audiobro version of CSS, get LASS. Last point about CSS: Audiobro tried their best to warn us that this library isn't trying to be that one. They literally named it Modern Scoring Strings. If you read "MODERN Scoring Strings" and your mind goes to "CSS", well I don't know what more to tell you.

MSS is more of a well-coordinated clean group of players for when you need technical proficiency and a tighter sound and you don't mind having to work a bit to get the results you want.

I noticed a handful of similarities to LASS. For example, the carefully chosen divisi groups offer different sounds, just like with LASS. It seems like with most sections, the A divisi is heavier on vibrato and more unpredictable. You can hear individual players in detail. That's the divisi I used for most of the sections you hear in the snippet linked below. The exceptions are the first violin and the violas where the B divisi is the heavier vibrato one. I wish they'd flip those just for the sake of consistency. The other divisi by comparison is a lot less clear and sounds washed out with less noticeable vibrato. That might be the one I reach for if the strings need to sit back a bit in the mix. Another similarity with LASS is the smoothness of crossfades. I have no idea how many layers there are because I can't hear them. And yet another similarity is how much care is taken to get violas, cellos, and sordinos exactly right. The violas are such a highlight. Listen to them come in at about :09-:12 and again at :17. They nailed it. They're dark and sassy, like me. Another LASS comparison is the way you can ride the modwheel to get an expressive performance

I love the tone and overall sound of these strings. They really do have a warmth when the whole ensemble is playing, see the example linked below. I went back and listened to my mockup of that same bit of string writing with other libraries like Hollywood Strings and Dimension Strings and MSS sul tasto handled it the best by a wide margin.

Are there downsides to the library? Of course. For one, the Extended Legato library is ONLY a legato patch for sordino, sul tasto, and sul pont. No shorts, no aleatoric patches, no runs, only legato. The legato in its default state is very direct. Sort of like Dimension Strings, the players are focused on hitting the next note perfectly and in time, so it takes a little bit of finessing to dial in your own (softer) legato sound, and that's not just for the legatos, that applies to the whole library itself. You absolutely can't just open it and get instant gratification. Tweaking it to taste is essential and I'm certain that the little snippet I mocked up here is far from the best I'll be able to do once I get very comfortable with the way the library reacts to each setting. To achieve this sound, I:

- Turned off all effects and reverb (each patch has a "No EQ No FX" setting but sometimes some of the stubborn reverb will get sneaky and stay activated anyway. Off with all their heads!)
- Turned the legato speed to the slowest possible setting
- Adjusted the legato volume for each section (different sections seem to react differently in this respect. Some sounded better with louder transitions and some needed to take a step back)
- Tested which divisi sang its part better (as previously mentioned I wound up going with the more vibrato-heavy one for each section)
- Adjusted the levels for each section (basses are way too prominent and left unchecked they would give everything a very boomy sound; violins are too quiet to carry the main melody)
- Disabled the Mix mic and used a combination of the Close and Stage instead, favoring the Stage
- Went into the Dynamics settings--why aren't more people talking about this feature?!--and turned on Smoothing to its default 7%, and narrowed down the dynamic range to 17dB.

That's a whole lot of tweaking to get it to work under my fingers but the results sound good. That's my experience with LASS as well.

Once that tweaking was done though, I didn't have to micro-edit anything at all. I played in the parts live and adjusted their timing, and that's it. The only tweaks I chose to make to the midi were to get particular notes to stand out in context, and had nothing to do with fighting against the library itself. Everything just worked. There is also no EQ, reverb, compression (aside from the in-the-box dynamic range adjustment I made), or anything other than a limiter. I like being minimalist when it comes to effects on my sample libraries and this one holds up well with that philosophy.

My ears hear absolutely no difference between the different sustain variations. My ears also hear no difference between the Rebow and Fingered legato. Are those not included with the Extended Legato set?

There's very little in the way of bugs or unexpected behavior. The B divisi viola sustain does lag from about middle C down to the G below but I'm sure bugs like that will get ironed out.

Conclusion? I'm tempted to get the full library. I can see this being a go-to for modern-sounding studio strings. The legato is in no way disappointing to me because of how well it responds to adjustment. And the great thing is that when I dialed in my legato settings to where it sounded smooth, it still sounded smooth even when I played in different ranges and at different dynamics. (I did hear some bumps when switching to sordino, so legato settings may vary by patch). If the full library can respond the same way the Extended Legato version does, it can be an extremely expressive instrument. And if that's the case, this is the most flexible and feature rich string library available


----------



## Raphioli

Casiquire said:


> LASS is heavy vibrato, lots of expression, the default legato holds up today and if you use the Pixelpoet legato trick it's still one of the best legatos on the market.


I've listened to the results of that trick (I think last year) and it did sound good.
Thats one of the reasons my expectations were high for MSS's legato.
But damn, I was hoping to hear "guys I found a way to make the legato sound great like LASS" or something along the lines of that lol

I'm still hoping AudioBro would improve the scripting.
The less vibrato doesn't bother me. As for timbre, I can consider it as a different color to my palette. I'm not sure "harsh" is the word for it, but I hear this type of timbre in various asian TV/game/anime soundtracks and I think its nice to have. 
But unfortunately, unimpressive legato is not something I can look past. So I'm hoping for script improvements. Hopefully before intro sale ends.


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> The legato is in no way disappointing to me because of how well it responds to adjustment


I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs .. I'm actually quite impressed how much I could push MSS so far with all the controls towards an expressive sound:
Full sections (Stage Mic, no reverb):


Divisi (Stage Mic, no reverb):

Will do a second round tomorrow .. hearing several bumps in the divisi version (used A for all sections)

I guess @Casiquire was right, this library just needs a bit more time to get comfortable with 

Here's the original:


----------



## Raphioli

borisb2 said:


> I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs .. I'm actually quite impressed how much I could push MSS so far with all the controls towards an expressive sound:
> Full sections:
> 
> 
> Divisi:
> 
> Will do a second round tomorrow .. hearing aseveral bumps in the divisi version (used A for all sections)
> 
> Here's the original:



I've only listen to the original track(CSS), since I have things to do. Listen to them after I'm done.
But just wanted to say, love that track!


----------



## FireGS

FireGS said:


> I know I'm not crazy. Cello DivA. No CCs. Here's the settings, see if anyone can reproduce this:
> 
> View attachment LOTR Edit 2 Export 2.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm playing pairs of C to C#, etc. I distinctly hear three samples play. The first note, the transition, and then it stops while another sample starts playing. Something is stopping the transition.
> 
> Bedtime.


No one hears this? Ok...


----------



## borisb2

FireGS said:


> No one hears this? Ok...


will have a look


----------



## Evans

curtisschweitzer said:


> I think this is a useful critique! A couple of notes on it:
> 
> I'd point out that I was finding the upper (120-127) layer of dynamics more tonally rich and detailed and wanted to bring that out. Stilll, looking at the project file right now, you're right-- spending way too much time up there for a real good look at the full range. Will try to keep that in mind for next time-- as well as the fact that my stuff can end up here on VIC (which I was *not* expecting!).
> 
> AudioBro reached out to me for some feedback, which I thought was just so nice of them. I am totally excited to see them integrating all sorts of useful critiques from lots of people-- especially here on VIC. I think the library is really great, and has a lot to offer that you just don't get anywhere else.


For what it's worth, I don't believe the comment you quoted was in reference to _your _video, but rather Bill's.


----------



## yellow_lupine

FireGS said:


> No one hears this? Ok...


Yes, I can hear it and it's pretty annoying


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> I'm starting to gather a lot of thoughts on the Extended Legato library, and getting an impression of what this library is and what it isn't supposed to be. This will be a long one. I'm really leaning into that reputation for being a know-it-all who doesn't know when to stop talking
> 
> First, it is not Audiobro's version of CSS. LASS is Audiobro's version of CSS (or vice versa, I suppose). LASS is heavy vibrato, lots of expression, the default legato holds up today and if you use the Pixelpoet legato trick it's still one of the best legatos on the market. If you're looking for the Audiobro version of CSS, get LASS. Last point about CSS: Audiobro tried their best to warn us that this library isn't trying to be that one. They literally named it Modern Scoring Strings. If you read "MODERN Scoring Strings" and your mind goes to "CSS", well I don't know what more to tell you.
> 
> MSS is more of a well-coordinated clean group of players for when you need technical proficiency and a tighter sound and you don't mind having to work a bit to get the results you want.
> 
> I noticed a handful of similarities to LASS. For example, the carefully chosen divisi groups offer different sounds, just like with LASS. It seems like with most sections, the A divisi is heavier on vibrato and more unpredictable. You can hear individual players in detail. That's the divisi I used for most of the sections you hear in the snippet linked below. The exceptions are the first violin and the violas where the B divisi is the heavier vibrato one. I wish they'd flip those just for the sake of consistency. The other divisi by comparison is a lot less clear and sounds washed out with less noticeable vibrato. That might be the one I reach for if the strings need to sit back a bit in the mix. Another similarity with LASS is the smoothness of crossfades. I have no idea how many layers there are because I can't hear them. And yet another similarity is how much care is taken to get violas, cellos, and sordinos exactly right. The violas are such a highlight. Listen to them come in at about :09-:12 and again at :17. They nailed it. They're dark and sassy, like me. Another LASS comparison is the way you can ride the modwheel to get an expressive performance
> 
> I love the tone and overall sound of these strings. They really do have a warmth when the whole ensemble is playing, see the example linked below. I went back and listened to my mockup of that same bit of string writing with other libraries like Hollywood Strings and Dimension Strings and MSS sul tasto handled it the best by a wide margin.
> 
> Are there downsides to the library? Of course. For one, the Extended Legato library is ONLY a legato patch for sordino, sul tasto, and sul pont. No shorts, no aleatoric patches, no runs, only legato. The legato in its default state is very direct. Sort of like Dimension Strings, the players are focused on hitting the next note perfectly and in time, so it takes a little bit of finessing to dial in your own (softer) legato sound, and that's not just for the legatos, that applies to the whole library itself. You absolutely can't just open it and get instant gratification. Tweaking it to taste is essential and I'm certain that the little snippet I mocked up here is far from the best I'll be able to do once I get very comfortable with the way the library reacts to each setting. To achieve this sound, I:
> 
> - Turned off all effects and reverb (each patch has a "No EQ No FX" setting but sometimes some of the stubborn reverb will get sneaky and stay activated anyway. Off with all their heads!)
> - Turned the legato speed to the slowest possible setting
> - Adjusted the legato volume for each section (different sections seem to react differently in this respect. Some sounded better with louder transitions and some needed to take a step back)
> - Tested which divisi sang its part better (as previously mentioned I wound up going with the more vibrato-heavy one for each section)
> - Adjusted the levels for each section (basses are way too prominent and left unchecked they would give everything a very boomy sound; violins are too quiet to carry the main melody)
> - Disabled the Mix mic and used a combination of the Close and Stage instead, favoring the Stage
> - Went into the Dynamics settings--why aren't more people talking about this feature?!--and turned on Smoothing to its default 7%, and narrowed down the dynamic range to 17dB.
> 
> That's a whole lot of tweaking to get it to work under my fingers but the results sound good. That's my experience with LASS as well.
> 
> Once that tweaking was done though, I didn't have to micro-edit anything at all. I played in the parts live and adjusted their timing, and that's it. The only tweaks I chose to make to the midi were to get particular notes to stand out in context, and had nothing to do with fighting against the library itself. Everything just worked. There is also no EQ, reverb, compression (aside from the in-the-box dynamic range adjustment I made), or anything other than a limiter. I like being minimalist when it comes to effects on my sample libraries and this one holds up well with that philosophy.
> 
> My ears hear absolutely no difference between the different sustain variations. My ears also hear no difference between the Rebow and Fingered legato. Are those not included with the Extended Legato set?
> 
> There's very little in the way of bugs or unexpected behavior. The B divisi viola sustain does lag from about middle C down to the G below but I'm sure bugs like that will get ironed out.
> 
> Conclusion? I'm tempted to get the full library. I can see this being a go-to for modern-sounding studio strings. The legato is in no way disappointing to me because of how well it responds to adjustment. And the great thing is that when I dialed in my legato settings to where it sounded smooth, it still sounded smooth even when I played in different ranges and at different dynamics. (I did hear some bumps when switching to sordino, so legato settings may vary by patch). If the full library can respond the same way the Extended Legato version does, it can be an extremely expressive instrument. And if that's the case, this is the most flexible and feature rich string library available



That was some good insight Casiquire, thanks! I see you have already applied a lot of legato tweaks as available on the GUI itself (still the legato sounded a bit direct/immediate in your example to my ears) but have you still tried to apply the Pixelpoet trick? I know it may seem useless now that you applied the tweaks on the GUI itself but as I mentioned here before, the trick might still go a little bit further as the GUI faders may still be limited to certain threshold as designed by the developer... so it is worth the try


----------



## Sovereign

borisb2 said:


> I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs .. I'm actually quite impressed how much I could push MSS so far with all the controls towards an expressive sound:
> Full sections (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> 
> Divisi (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> Will do a second round tomorrow .. hearing several bumps in the divisi version (used A for all sections)
> 
> I guess @Casiquire was right, this library just needs a bit more time to get comfortable with
> 
> Here's the original:



Good attempt, but IMO the CSS version is miles ahead and could fool me. The MSS version would never convince me it's a real orchestra playing. This cements my decision not to get MSS definitely.


----------



## AndyP

Sovereign said:


> Good attempt, but IMO the CSS version is miles ahead and could fool me. The MSS version would never convince me it's a real orchestra playing. This cements my decision not to get MSS definitely.


Agree. I can't warm up to MSS, even though there are a few features that I find useful. Unfortunately, it does not convince me sonically.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

borisb2 said:


> I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs .. I'm actually quite impressed how much I could push MSS so far with all the controls towards an expressive sound:
> Full sections (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> 
> Divisi (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> Will do a second round tomorrow .. hearing several bumps in the divisi version (used A for all sections)
> 
> I guess @Casiquire was right, this library just needs a bit more time to get comfortable with
> 
> Here's the original:



The CSS version sings and sings beautifully! MSS is lifeless.
It should be noted that this is also a great composition for strings!


----------



## Batrawi

Sovereign said:


> Good attempt, but IMO the CSS version is miles ahead and could fool me. The MSS version would never convince me it's a real orchestra playing.


Agree. I still hear that MSS gives a clearer and a more gentle vibrato in its tone (which I personally find better than CSS) but the way the notes connect is completely killing any sense of musicality. Still hoping this might be fixed with the 'Pixelpoet trick' if anyone cared to try


----------



## Soundbed

jamwerks said:


> Thanks for that. Strings too FFF to my ears for this passage. Too much close mic on Basses. Overall sounds great. Beautiful with CSWW.


Interesting that you wrote fff and not f based on the mod wheel positions. The volume is gained up for the video but the velocity layers “should” be in the f range at most, based solely on where the mod wheel was... I’d think.

(I’m not assuming you were exaggerating.)


----------



## Tinesaeriel

Batrawi said:


> Agree. I still hear that MSS gives a clearer and a more gentle vibrato in its tone (which I personally find better than CSS) but the way the notes connect is completely killing any sense of musicality. Still hoping this might be fixed with the 'Pixelpoet trick' if anyone cared to try


What _is _this Pixelpoet trick I keep hearing about? Would somebody be able to point me to where I can find more info on it? Looking to mess about with the legatos on different string libraries in Kontakt


----------



## FireGS

borisb2 said:


> will have a look


What did you think? The issue is here:






Granted, the trans volume is set to max, but there isn't a fade between the end of the legato transition sample and the next note. You can hear each sample play, and there's an audible difference between all three samples. 

Here's the same MIDI with -0db trans volume, aka default, and its still there:

View attachment LOTR Edit 2 Export 3.mp3


Interestingly enough, if I turn on rebow, its still BARELY there, but its 99% better.

View attachment LOTR Edit 2 Export 4.mp3


So.... everyone turn on rebow all the time?


----------



## Living Fossil

Batrawi said:


> Agree. I still hear that MSS gives a clearer and a more gentle vibrato in its tone (which I personally find better than CSS) but the way the notes connect is completely killing any sense of musicality. Still hoping this might be fixed with the 'Pixelpoet trick' if anyone cared to try



That's not my experience so far. You have four interacting parameters in Legato besides from CC1 which you have to adjust to the musical phrase. In short: it's not the easiest to use library so far


----------



## Raphioli

Batrawi said:


> the way the notes connect is completely killing any sense of musicality.


I've taken a listen as well, and thats how I feel as well.
I may change my mind if I'm proven wrong of course.


----------



## Batrawi

Tinesaeriel said:


> What _is _this Pixelpoet trick I keep hearing about? Would somebody be able to point me to where I can find more info on it? Looking to mess about with the legatos on different string libraries in Kontakt


I've posted it on page 16 or 17 in this thread (sorry my mobile browser is not allowing me to embed a hyperlink)... But keep in mind it doesn't necessarily work for all libraries


----------



## Raphioli

Tinesaeriel said:


> What _is _this Pixelpoet trick I keep hearing about? Would somebody be able to point me to where I can find more info on it? Looking to mess about with the legatos on different string libraries in Kontakt





Batrawi said:


> I've posted it on page 16 or 17 in this thread (sorry my mobile browser is not allowing me to embed a hyperlink)... But keep in mind it doesn't necessarily work for all libraries


I'll post a link to it.





Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings


There is no love for the viola. :sad: Maybe they couldn't record it with the covid?




vi-control.net





As Batrawi says, it doesn't work on some libraries, like Spitfires legato patches, since they're locked.


----------



## Batrawi

Living Fossil said:


> That's not my experience so far. You have four interacting parameters in Legato besides from CC1 which you have to adjust to the musical phrase. In short: it's not the easiest to use library so far


believe me, "not being the easiest to use library" is not what worries me at all, but it is the fact that none of the users so far (and there are talented ones) couldn't yet use those parameters to post examples with improved results/legatos


----------



## novaburst

borisb2 said:


> I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs .. I'm actually quite impressed how much I could push MSS so far with all the controls towards an expressive sound:
> Full sections (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> 
> Divisi (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> Will do a second round tomorrow .. hearing several bumps in the divisi version (used A for all sections)
> 
> I guess @Casiquire was right, this library just needs a bit more time to get comfortable with
> 
> Here's the original:



While this is a great demo not sure what happened to the volume on MSS becuase from what I hear they can get quite loud, CSS volume was way louder but I could be mistaken


----------



## Lazer42

Sovereign said:


> Good attempt, but IMO the CSS version is miles ahead and could fool me. The MSS version would never convince me it's a real orchestra playing. This cements my decision not to get MSS definitely.


I agree with this and the others who have expressed the same sentiment.

The work Boris put in is very good, but the sound itself reminds me - at times - of something that came out of my Soundblaster MIDI player in the late 90s. I know that sounds pretty harsh, but I don't know of a better way to describe it. At other times it sounds better - though still not to my liking - and perhaps this sound is just the result of some EQs or reverb settings or something and the library itself can do better once it's figured out. We'll see. 

One other thing I'm starting to notice as I read comments from two different points of view on this library - and as I think about similar back and forths in VSL threads - I wonder if when some people describe the sound as "synthy" and others describe it as "warm" they are both talking about the same aspect of the sound but describing it differently through the lens of whether they like it or not.


----------



## Evans

How about something gets written to MSS's strengths and adapt that to CSS, Vista, etc.?

I agree that the standard legato is severely "lacking" if you're trying like hell to write like you're using CSS or Vista, but what about Berlin Strings? It's an incredible library, and these transitions don't sound far off from that, if memory serves me.


----------



## Lazer42

Evans said:


> How about something gets written to MSS's strengths and adapt that to CSS, Vista, etc.?
> 
> I agree that the standard legato is severely "lacking" if you're trying like hell to write like you're using CSS or Vista, but what about Berlin Strings? It's an incredible library, and these transitions don't sound far off from that, if memory serves me.


Actually, this comment (and others which talk about writing to a library's strengths) make me wonder whether there isn't a significant dichotomy between two kinds of users lying behind a lot of the sorts of disagreements over the quality of any library.

To me - and I'm sure to many others - the idea of "writing to a library's strengths" is something that, ideally, a user shouldn't have to worry about. I want to write music _as though I were writing for live players_ and get something from the playback that sounds as real as possible. There are of course limitations to the technology and so obviously it's never (at least not in 2021) going to sound perfect, but the point is that when I sit down to write I want to think about the music and not the programming. In fact, I even much prefer to write in a notation program which has some kind of ruleset system to interact with samples rather than in a DAW. The latter is admittedly going to produce better results, but what I'm getting at here is the way I think about writing: as notes and musical symbols on a page which could be given to a performer the same way a script could be given to an actor.

To another large group, writing seems to be more about treating libraries like instruments themselves. Writing a certain kind of line for string library X instead of string library Y would be to these users almost like it would have been for Beethoven to write a given line for the cellos instead of the oboes - it just wouldn't make musical sense because they're different instruments which do completely different things.

Put more concisely, I think some users view sample libraries _as the instruments_, while other users view the libraries as _a way to hear _the instruments but not as the instruments themselves - almost like one might regard a PA or speaker system. The latter group wants their sample libraries to be as transparent as possible, just like you usually want speakers which do not color the sound, while the former want in their writing to consider the qualities of different libraries like one might consider the qualities of any different kinds of instruments.

This is a very general point here - not one that is only about MSS - and it's not to say that either group is right or wrong. I do wonder if this is a dynamic at play in different reactions to this library.


----------



## Evans

Lazer42 said:


> To me - and I'm sure to many others - the idea of "writing to a library's strengths" is something that, ideally, a user shouldn't have to worry about.


My _personal _opinion is that for this to be a non-concern, we need to give sample modeling another ten years of evolution.



Lazer42 said:


> Writing a certain kind of line for string library X instead of string library Y would be to these users almost like it would have been for Beethoven to write a given line for the cellos instead of the oboes


❤️ I have "way too many" electric guitars. *Each one of them is, yes, an electric guitar*. But if I'm playing a blues lead, I'm not going to pick one up that I'm most comfortable with for rhythm work.


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> That was some good insight Casiquire, thanks! I see you have already applied a lot of legato tweaks as available on the GUI itself (still the legato sounded a bit direct/immediate in your example to my ears but have you still tried to apply the Pixelpoet trick? I know it may seem useless now that you applied the tweaks on the GUI itself but as I mentioned here before, the trick might still go a little bit further as the GUI faders may still be limited to certain threshold as designed by the developer... so it is worth the try


I think they're SUPPOSED to sound direct. That's how the players played it, so trickery won't change it much. I can't try the trick because I'm still on Kontakt 5, so I'm using the Player for this library. But i wasn't trying to fight the nature of how the players were playing in the studio, just tweak it to my tastes.

I listened to the original recording of this music after i finished and the live strings' legato was far, far MORE direct than MSS. What you hear in my example is smoother than the live players.

Again. This isn't trying to be CSS. It's doing its own thing.


----------



## william81723

Raphioli said:


> I get what your saying and thx for the comparison.
> 
> @dxmachina
> I hope you can release an update that fixes this (improving legato scripting)
> This is probably making the legato patch sound close to a sustain patch.



The same thing happens in ensemble patch.


----------



## Lazer42

Evans said:


> My _personal _opinion is that for this to be a non-concern, we need to give sample modeling another ten years of evolution.


I agree that more development is the ultimate "solution" to this concern. In the current state of technology, it's not possible for a library to just "be a violin" (or whatever) in the same way that a real violin is just a violin. 

I suspect the dynamic between different sorts of users is nevertheless at play in that some users are more forgiving of libraries which have more obvious strengths and weaknesses while others prefer libraries which are more balanced. 

So, one library may be outstanding as far as X goes but is mediocre or poor with Y. Meanwhile, another library might only be pretty good at X - not as good as the first - but will also be pretty good at Y. 

I think some users would prefer to have a bunch of different libraries of the first sort and so to use one library when they need X, another when they use Y, another when they use Z, etc. Meanwhile others don't want to deal with that and want a smaller number of libraries which can do all they are looking for even if the highs are not as high as using a bunch of different ones.

The thing is, I think that in my opinion technology has progressed to the point where the differences between libraries are more about their weaknesses than their strengths.


----------



## ism

biomuse said:


> and that often means that more technique is needed to get a particular desired sound; but it does not mean that the sound is unachievable. This thing has been out for a few days. People are still figuring it out.





Casiquire said:


> I'm starting to gather a lot of thoughts on the Extended Legato library, and getting an impression of what this library is and what it isn't supposed to be. This will be a long one. I'm really leaning into that reputation for being a know-it-all who doesn't know when to stop talking
> 
> First, it is not Audiobro's version of CSS. LASS is Audiobro's version of CSS (or vice versa, I suppose). LASS is heavy vibrato, lots of expression, the default legato holds up today and if you use the Pixelpoet legato trick it's still one of the best legatos on the market. If you're looking for the Audiobro version of CSS, get LASS. Last point about CSS: Audiobro tried their best to warn us that this library isn't trying to be that one. They literally named it Modern Scoring Strings. If you read "MODERN Scoring Strings" and your mind goes to "CSS", well I don't know what more to tell you.
> 
> MSS is more of a well-coordinated clean group of players for when you need technical proficiency and a tighter sound and you don't mind having to work a bit to get the results you want.
> 
> I noticed a handful of similarities to LASS. For example, the carefully chosen divisi groups offer different sounds, just like with LASS. It seems like with most sections, the A divisi is heavier on vibrato and more unpredictable. You can hear individual players in detail. That's the divisi I used for most of the sections you hear in the snippet linked below. The exceptions are the first violin and the violas where the B divisi is the heavier vibrato one. I wish they'd flip those just for the sake of consistency. The other divisi by comparison is a lot less clear and sounds washed out with less noticeable vibrato. That might be the one I reach for if the strings need to sit back a bit in the mix. Another similarity with LASS is the smoothness of crossfades. I have no idea how many layers there are because I can't hear them. And yet another similarity is how much care is taken to get violas, cellos, and sordinos exactly right. The violas are such a highlight. Listen to them come in at about :09-:12 and again at :17. They nailed it. They're dark and sassy, like me. Another LASS comparison is the way you can ride the modwheel to get an expressive performance
> 
> I love the tone and overall sound of these strings. They really do have a warmth when the whole ensemble is playing, see the example linked below. I went back and listened to my mockup of that same bit of string writing with other libraries like Hollywood Strings and Dimension Strings and MSS sul tasto handled it the best by a wide margin.
> 
> Are there downsides to the library? Of course. For one, the Extended Legato library is ONLY a legato patch for sordino, sul tasto, and sul pont. No shorts, no aleatoric patches, no runs, only legato. The legato in its default state is very direct. Sort of like Dimension Strings, the players are focused on hitting the next note perfectly and in time, so it takes a little bit of finessing to dial in your own (softer) legato sound, and that's not just for the legatos, that applies to the whole library itself. You absolutely can't just open it and get instant gratification. Tweaking it to taste is essential and I'm certain that the little snippet I mocked up here is far from the best I'll be able to do once I get very comfortable with the way the library reacts to each setting. To achieve this sound, I:
> 
> - Turned off all effects and reverb (each patch has a "No EQ No FX" setting but sometimes some of the stubborn reverb will get sneaky and stay activated anyway. Off with all their heads!)
> - Turned the legato speed to the slowest possible setting
> - Adjusted the legato volume for each section (different sections seem to react differently in this respect. Some sounded better with louder transitions and some needed to take a step back)
> - Tested which divisi sang its part better (as previously mentioned I wound up going with the more vibrato-heavy one for each section)
> - Adjusted the levels for each section (basses are way too prominent and left unchecked they would give everything a very boomy sound; violins are too quiet to carry the main melody)
> - Disabled the Mix mic and used a combination of the Close and Stage instead, favoring the Stage
> - Went into the Dynamics settings--why aren't more people talking about this feature?!--and turned on Smoothing to its default 7%, and narrowed down the dynamic range to 17dB.
> 
> That's a whole lot of tweaking to get it to work under my fingers but the results sound good. That's my experience with LASS as well.
> 
> Once that tweaking was done though, I didn't have to micro-edit anything at all. I played in the parts live and adjusted their timing, and that's it. The only tweaks I chose to make to the midi were to get particular notes to stand out in context, and had nothing to do with fighting against the library itself. Everything just worked. There is also no EQ, reverb, compression (aside from the in-the-box dynamic range adjustment I made), or anything other than a limiter. I like being minimalist when it comes to effects on my sample libraries and this one holds up well with that philosophy.
> 
> My ears hear absolutely no difference between the different sustain variations. My ears also hear no difference between the Rebow and Fingered legato. Are those not included with the Extended Legato set?
> 
> There's very little in the way of bugs or unexpected behavior. The B divisi viola sustain does lag from about middle C down to the G below but I'm sure bugs like that will get ironed out.
> 
> Conclusion? I'm tempted to get the full library. I can see this being a go-to for modern-sounding studio strings. The legato is in no way disappointing to me because of how well it responds to adjustment. And the great thing is that when I dialed in my legato settings to where it sounded smooth, it still sounded smooth even when I played in different ranges and at different dynamics. (I did hear some bumps when switching to sordino, so legato settings may vary by patch). If the full library can respond the same way the Extended Legato version does, it can be an extremely expressive instrument. And if that's the case, this is the most flexible and feature rich string library available



This is nice. There's a, I guess I'd call it a "sweetness", in it. Though somehow build on the crunchiness of the dryness that's really starting to come out here. I'm still feeling the need for more reverb, or something. But I can see the strengths of this library beginning to come out in earnest.


Definitely not CSS. And this is to be celebrated.


----------



## Eptesicus

borisb2 said:


> I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs .. I'm actually quite impressed how much I could push MSS so far with all the controls towards an expressive sound:
> Full sections (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> 
> Divisi (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> Will do a second round tomorrow .. hearing several bumps in the divisi version (used A for all sections)
> 
> I guess @Casiquire was right, this library just needs a bit more time to get comfortable with
> 
> Here's the original:




Not even a contest there really..

(nice bit of music by the way)


----------



## Raphioli

Lazer42 said:


> I suspect the dynamic between different sorts of users is nevertheless at play in that some users are more forgiving of libraries which have more obvious strengths and weaknesses while others prefer libraries which are more balanced.


I agree that it might come down to personal preference.
I've mentioned it in another thread, but some users might be ok with a mediocre legato if a library has a bunch of articulations/features, while others might consider how musically each note can connect a priority over other things.

I don't hate the timbre. (I'm aware some people think its synthy)
Its just the musical flow in lyrical lines that's lacking.
I'm really hoping Audiobro can improve the scripting.


----------



## BasariStudios

Soundbed said:


> Here's some explorations of the ostinatos in various instruments in various ranges. I don't want to say too much on the sound itself yet, although I have my own impressions. What are yours?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! And I was changing tempo while the ostinatos played. Almost forgot that was one of the main things I wanted to explore. Could not get certain tempo changes to "work" at all; if the pattern goes on too long across some tempo map changes there was sort of a re-start of the pattern at some point even with auto and sync options off. So I simply chose tempo changes that didn't have that issue.
> 
> I started with the out of box reverbs, turned them off, them move to close mics with no EQ (mostly ... I accidentally found some exceptions while editing the video ... taking care of every detail takes time and you're an eager bunch).
> 
> Mod wheel was in the middle two velocity layers; probably mp<mf>mp or so in most cases.



I don't know if its my PC or no but this video is horrible,
there is so much clicks and pops, i hope its not MSS.


----------



## BasariStudios

FireGS said:


> I know I'm not crazy. Cello DivA. No CCs. Here's the settings, see if anyone can reproduce this:
> 
> View attachment LOTR Edit 2 Export 2.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm playing pairs of C to C#, etc. I distinctly hear three samples play. The first note, the transition, and then it stops while another sample starts playing. Something is stopping the transition.
> 
> Bedtime.


Sounds like the problem with Areia and Jaeger Strings.


----------



## Vik

Lazer42 said:


> I wonder if when some people describe the sound as "synthy" and others describe it as "warm" they are both talking about the same aspect of the sound but describing it differently through the lens of whether they like it or not.


I doubt that. 'Synthy' may refer more to 'synthetic' (as in unnatural) than to 'synthesizer like' – while warm isn't about synthetic/natural, but but about a sound color, probably referring to a quality it seems that most people think that MSS has more of than LASS (less harsh without processing, no exaggerated high frequencies etc).


----------



## Evans

BasariStudios said:


> I don't know if its my PC or no but this video is horrible,
> there is so much clicks and pops, i hope its not MSS.


There could be many reasons, but those could apply to any library. It's not something unique to MSS.


----------



## Lazer42

Vik said:


> I doubt that – 'synthy' may refer more to 'synthetic' (as in unnatural) than to 'synthesizer like' – while warm isn't about synthetic/natural, but but about a sound color, probably referring to a quality it seems that most people think that MSS has more of than LASS (less harsh without processing, no exaggerated high frequencies etc).


The reason I raise the question is because I have noticed in this discussion as well as in discussions of other libraries which have been met with such a sharp split in reaction that often when one group describes an example as fake or synthetic sounding, the other says it's warm. 

Moreover, as someone who thinks most of the MSS examples so far do sound a bit (and sometimes a lot) synthetic, I can also see how a person might describe as warm that same aspect of the sound which makes me call it "synthy."


----------



## Eptesicus

Soundbed said:


> Here's some explorations of the ostinatos in various instruments in various ranges. I don't want to say too much on the sound itself yet, although I have my own impressions. What are yours?



I do like the sounds of the ostinatos here.


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> I think they're SUPPOSED to sound direct. That's how the players played it,


😬 can't really agree on this, coz no matter how players intend to play directly, they just can't defy the laws of nature which necessitate some good amount of milliseconds to allow the transitioning from one note to another... let alone it's fingered legato (as opposed to bow change which can sound a bit direct) and let alone it's a full divis/ensemble where the players can never play in sync... no matter how disciplined/uniform they try to be, they just can't sound as direct as I'm hearing here... unless that must be a very rare playing style that I've never heard in live music before..🤨


----------



## Evans

Almost any library can sound "synthy." Go play some emulated sordino triads with CSS. It will sound like you had Omnisphere loaded up.


----------



## ism

Eptesicus said:


> Not even a contest there really..
> 
> (nice bit of music by the way)


There's no reverb though. No tail. Dry strings with no reverb naturally have an uncomfortable, uncanny quality. 

It doesn't locate you, as a listener, in a music space. It's evokes the claustrophobia of, I don't know, being stuffed into a filing cabinet with a string orchestra or something like that.

A different, but similarly unpleasant and uncanny effect, from using SCS with close mic only.


----------



## Casiquire

ism said:


> This is nice. There's a, I guess I'd call it a "sweetness", in it. Though somehow build on the crunchiness of the dryness that's really starting to come out here. I'm still feeling the need for more reverb, or something. But I can see the strengths of this library beginning to come out in earnest.
> 
> 
> Definitely not CSS. And this is to be celebrated.


It should definitely have some reverb eventually but i wanted to show it completely dry and natural. I think it sounds pretty great for being so dry


----------



## Vik

"Almost any library can sound "synthy."

...or try to play any major triad, in root position, on any newly tuned acoustic piano. It is tempered, and therefore 'synthetic'; it sounds out-of-tune because the tuning is a compromis made to allow playing the piano in all keys, and major triads in root positions sounds particularly wrong. 

In a thread about an early version of Synchron Strings I even heard a recording of a live orchestra that sounded what was described as 'synthy' (in an early critique of that library, I think things have approved a lot since then - many users like it now): it was the actual playing style that sounded wrong, because a portamento sounded exaggerated and too loud even if everything as played manually. So 'synthy' can be a rather vague term.


----------



## Lazer42

Evans said:


> Almost any library can sound "synthy." Go play some emulated sordino triads with CSS. It will sound like you had Omnisphere loaded up.


It is possible for many libraries to sound synthy if one plays them "incorrectly." Notice the example you gave: playing triads with a string library. Yes, that might sound synthy because it's not how strings typically play. 

I can't speak for everyone, but at least for me that's not what I'm talking about with MSS. I'm talking about single melodic lines - even single sustained notes without worrying about the transitions. There is just this sortof... ethereal, yes "warm" sound which I don't recall ever hearing from a real string section but which is characteristic of what I think of when I think of simulated string sections.


----------



## Raphioli

Batrawi said:


> 😬 can't really agree on this, coz no matter how players intend to play directly, they just can't defy the laws of nature which necessitate some good amount of milliseconds to allow the transitioning from one note to another... let alone it's fingered legato (as opposed to bow change which can sound a bit direct) and let alone it's a full divis/ensemble where the players can never play in sync... no matter how disciplined/uniform they try to be, they just can't sound as direct as I'm hearing here... unless that must be a very rare playing style that I've never heard in live music before..🤨


I get what you're saying. Its not about the timbre or the amount of vibrato, but the connection between notes.
I'm hoping its just a scripting thing which they can fix, because I like the other features/articulation this library offers.


----------



## dzilizzi

Evans said:


> Almost any library can sound "synthy." Go play some emulated sordino triads with CSS. It will sound like you had Omnisphere loaded up.


This.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> It should definitely have some reverb eventually but i wanted to show it completely dry and natural. I think it sounds pretty great for being so dry


Thanks for sharing your impressions!

Which microphones did you use? Is this the mix without reverb? I like the (dry) sound in your demo.

Also, the legato sounds good to me. Maybe it's not molto vibrato, but it's definitely more than a "regular" vibrato. If I remember correctly, Sebastian (or Andrew) mentioned that the vibrato is dependent on the microphones. Would like to hear how the vibrato sound changes when prioritising certain microphones.


----------



## dxmachina

I mentioned this before - but if you are in this thread, own MSS, and are not enjoying legato so far _please _reach out directly (PM, email). I am trying to read every post here, but my time is limited and I'd like your thoughts/feedback directly if you're interested/willing.

@Soundbed Thank you for those usability thoughts. Within the bounds of Kontakt we'll definitely see what we can do!



> could the default position for EQ gain be 0dB ?


Yes, this will be included for sure.



> I can get the MSS Cello Spiccatos sounding almost like LASS with some internal EQ changes


Not sure you need any help, but in addition to EQ to pop out the edginess if you push the close mics through some compression and mix the rest to taste you can get shockingly close.

@dhowarthmusic Full ensemble patch is included in the main library and it does have sord/Sul Tasto/Sul Pont sustains in it. No ensemble in the Expanded library. Ostinato does not have sordino/sul's.


----------



## rampant

borisb2 said:


> I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs .. I'm actually quite impressed how much I could push MSS so far with all the controls towards an expressive sound:
> Full sections (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> 
> Divisi (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> Will do a second round tomorrow .. hearing several bumps in the divisi version (used A for all sections)
> 
> I guess @Casiquire was right, this library just needs a bit more time to get comfortable with
> 
> Here's the original:



The CSS version also sounded somewhat synth-y to me this morning, in parts. Now, it doesn't sound quite so fake. It doesn't sound markedly better than MSS, to me, just _different_. And that's not to say that MSS is, or will be, the be-all-and-end-all of string libraries, but I do generally quite like the tone. Then again, I love LASS -- and that sound has also been somewhat divisive over the years.

In particular, from your example, the violas in MSS stood out as sounding much fuller to me than the CSS ones. Maybe they're just louder in the mix. Could just be that playing auditory tricks on my ears, haha.

I think some high quality external reverb would narrow any perceived gap between the two considerably. (Out of curiosity, what mics were you using for CSS? The standard mix?)

However, some of the commenters in this thread, I suspect, might not really be happy until there's a sample library that has a professional string ensemble in a professional studio with professional recording engineers on call 24/7 to record, in real time, every note that they draw or play into their DAW  That, or every instrument in the ensemble recorded separately, and given a little bit of randomization, ranging in the milliseconds, to legato transition speed and note attack... oh, and the instruments must all slowly fall out of tuning with each other the longer your project/cue is!


----------



## Casiquire

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Thanks for sharing your impressions!
> 
> Which microphones did you use? Is this the mix without reverb? I like the (dry) sound in your demo.
> 
> Also, the legato sounds good to me. Maybe it's not molto vibrato, but it's definitely more than a "regular" vibrato. If I remember correctly, Sebastian (or Andrew) mentioned that the vibrato is dependent on the microphones. Would like to hear how the vibrato sound changes when prioritising certain microphones.


Just the Close and Stage. The Close does catch more detail but i planned to post a completely dry and zero-FX example so i needed some room. You're hearing more Stage than Close

The vibrato is more pronounced because i picked the highest vibrato divisi sections. I thought they'd be more expressive, and yeah, I'd say it turned out sounding pretty expressive!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> Just the Close and Stage. The Close does catch more detail but i planned to post a completely dry and zero-FX example so i needed some room. You're hearing more Stage than Close
> 
> The vibrato is more pronounced because i picked the highest vibrato divisi sections. I thought they'd be more expressive, and yeah, I'd say it turned out sounding pretty expressive!


Thanks! And this actually confirms what I heard by myself. I prefer the stage + close combination in general and don't go with the ambient/surround microphones very often, no matter what library I use.


----------



## biomuse

Eptesicus said:


> Not even a contest there really..
> 
> (nice bit of music by the way)





borisb2 said:


> I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs .. I'm actually quite impressed how much I could push MSS so far with all the controls towards an expressive sound:
> Full sections (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> 
> Divisi (Stage Mic, no reverb):
> 
> Will do a second round tomorrow .. hearing several bumps in the divisi version (used A for all sections)
> 
> I guess @Casiquire was right, this library just needs a bit more time to get comfortable with
> 
> Here's the original:



Yeah this really disturbed me, actually - pushed me back from "About ready to pull the trigger on MSS" to "Ok - I need to investigate other options seriously, at minimum." 

@borisb2, you're probably too close to this (very charming) piece to hear this, but the CSS blows both MSS examples clean out of the water. It's embarrassing for MSS. I'm very solid in that opinion. The CSS example sounds like a plausible performance in a way that the MSS examples simply do not.

Trying to get my bearings here, as are we all. 

I'm guessing that if there's anything that will showcase MSS in a lyrical piece such as this:

1. An existing file cannot be dropped on MSS. The piece needs to be, if not written to, at least performed into MSS afresh. This is because:

2. Recorded note performances in MSS are pretty plainly intended as raw material for the moulding, in the sense that they are mannered and consistent above all else, with little emotion or movement baked into the samples themselves - the Anti-Blunk Approach, if you will. This implies that:

3. Any successful outing for MSS in a highly espressivo passage or piece will need A LOT of parameter movement in more than one CC channel. @Living Fossil seems to get this and perhaps can rescue MSS' apparent capacity here...

4. For more restrained pieces, MSS will be a more natural fit. Question remains: can it do espressivo satisfactorily?


----------



## Bollen

novaburst said:


> This is the normal answer for those that really don't have a reason to put something down but hay


To be frank, I find your comment terribly unfair. It is extremely difficult to explain music things in words, there's just no vocabulary for it. I did my best to explain what I'm hearing from the point of view of a string player and my issue is exclusively for the FCs, the rest of the library is fabulous! A Rolls Royce of string libraries!

On a separate point: synthy is an artificial quality to an otherwise acoustic sound. It is produced by an electronic or mechanical device and it's perfection and symmetry stands out as impossibly human in its generation, at least to those who are familiar with the real thing. Think of text to voice generators, they hardly fool anyone.


----------



## Casiquire

biomuse said:


> Yeah this really disturbed me, actually - pushed me back from "About ready to pull the trigger on MSS" to "Ok - I need to investigate other options seriously, at minimum."
> 
> @borisb2, you're probably too close to this (very charming) piece to hear this, but the CSS blows both MSS examples clean out of the water. It's embarrassing for MSS. I'm very solid in that opinion. The CSS example sounds like a plausible performance in a way that the MSS examples simply do not.
> 
> Trying to get my bearings here, as are we all.
> 
> I'm guessing that if there's anything that will showcase MSS in a lyrical piece such as this:
> 
> 1. An existing file cannot be dropped on MSS. The piece needs to be, if not written to, at least performed into MSS afresh. This is because:
> 
> 2. Recorded note performances in MSS are pretty plainly intended as raw material for the moulding, in the sense that they are mannered and consistent above all else, with little emotion or movement baked into the samples themselves - the Anti-Blunk Approach, if you will. This implies that:
> 
> 3. Any successful outing for MSS in a highly espressivo passage or piece will need A LOT of parameter movement in more than one CC channel. @Living Fossil seems to get this and perhaps can rescue MSS' apparent capacity here...
> 
> 4. For more restrained pieces, MSS will be a more natural fit. Question remains: can it do espressivo satisfactorily?


For what it's worth, my example only has CC1 movement. I'm hoping that the library works with all my other tweaks as "set it and forget it", only needing to use keyswitches or CCs when i need to change an articulation


----------



## Laddy

biomuse said:


> 2. Recorded note performances in MSS are pretty plainly intended as raw material for the moulding, in the sense that they are mannered and consistent above all else, with little emotion or movement baked into the samples themselves - the Anti-Blunk Approach, if you will. This implies that:
> 
> 3. Any successful outing for MSS in a highly espressivo passage or piece will need A LOT of parameter movement in more than one CC channel. @Living Fossil seems to get this and perhaps can rescue MSS' apparent capacity here...


I think this is a very important point.


----------



## biomuse

Casiquire said:


> For what it's worth, my example only has CC1 movement. I'm hoping that the library works with all my other tweaks as "set it and forget it", only needing to use keyswitches or CCs when i need to change an articulation


I felt like it wanted more and deeper dynamics movement, and perhaps tweaking of transition speed and amount. Good attempt, however.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

@Casiquire 
You have the legato expansion only, right? Is the bundle price reduced if you want to upgrade?
I'm asking, because maybe I go the same way first and decide to upgrade later.


----------



## Casiquire

biomuse said:


> I felt like it wanted more and deeper dynamics movement, and perhaps tweaking of transition speed and amount. Good attempt, however.


That's to taste. The piece is intentionally pretty restrained. Much more movement would be inappropriate, which is why I'm glad tools like this exist.



Pixelpoet1985 said:


> @Casiquire
> You have the legato expansion only, right? Is the bundle price reduced if you want to upgrade?
> I'm asking, because maybe I go the same way first and decide to upgrade later.



Correct. It's slightly more expensive to do it this way though. I had LASS Full plus Legato Sordino, so my price for MSS full is 549, versus buying the Extended Legato for 199 and then later buying the main library for 399. But with the mixed reactions i thought it was a lower risk way of feeling things out, since i already adored the sound of the tastos


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Casiquire said:


> Again. This isn't trying to be CSS. It's doing its own thing.


Absolutely, and of course I’m guilty of using a CSS (well, actually CSB) demo to test it. That said, I’d sooner compare this - both sonically and feature wise - to HWS.

In this regard, MSS takes the cake in terms of ease of use, resource management, and features. HWS has a similarly dry approach, not quite as raw sound, and detailed parameters, but it’s nowhere near the level of control that MSS gives you. Yes, I’m comparing a beautiful dinosaur to the shiny new kid on the block, but this is the more relevant comparison for me. I just don’t write much with HWS because it doesn’t fit the bill often.

Now one thing I DO want to try, is layering a divisi section of MSS with CSS to add some air and crispness to the sound. Might sound terrible and it’ll be a while before I can try it, but just a thought.

*Full disclosure, I don’t buy a lot of libraries. I just don’t care about them, and if I can’t work and get paid using what I have, I’m not working hard enough. So I can only compare MSS, personally, to CSS, HWS, and EWQLSO.


----------



## novaburst

Bollen said:


> To be frank, I find your comment terribly unfair. It is extremely difficult to explain music things in words, there's just no vocabulary for it. I did my best to explain what I'm hearing from the point of view of a string player and my issue is exclusively for the FCs, the rest of the library is fabulous! A Rolls Royce of string libraries!
> 
> On a separate point: synthy is an artificial quality to an otherwise acoustic sound. It is produced by an electronic or mechanical device and it's perfection and symmetry stands out as impossibly human in its generation, at least to those who are familiar with the real thing. Think of text to voice generators, they hardly fool anyone.


It's OK, I hear you, hope all is ok, _I think from where I am coming from is these guys Audiobro have been in this game for years and have given us the best of the best in sample library's but some of the comments make them seem like they don't know what they are doing, 

IIt is a big library and a lot to learn, it just kind of seems like people know that there are mistakes in a few of the demos or mockups and they are just riding it to slam the library 

Anyway hope there is no hard feeling I guess at the end of the day we can show our dislike to library's in what way we choose, I guess it's just the way it is. _


----------



## Soundbed

BasariStudios said:


> I don't know if its my PC or no but this video is horrible,
> there is so much clicks and pops, i hope its not MSS.


Hmm, well the audio in the video doesn't have "horrible" clicks and pops as far as I can tell. Might be something on your machine temporarily? If it's really an issue, I could open the video project and export an MP3 of the audio track at some point.

That said, I have been experiencing a few of the "CPU spikes" that create clicks when I'm playing back live, that others have mentioned. They are new to using MSS for me. I did not include those (or certainly not too many of them) in this video however. I've been trying to keep them out of the videos so that technical glitches can be separated from the overall sounds (timbres / colors) one can expect from the library.




Lazer42 said:


> the idea of "writing to a library's strengths" is something that, ideally, a user shouldn't have to worry about.
> 
> 
> Lazer42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> To another large group, writing seems to be more about treating libraries like instruments themselves.
Click to expand...


This triggered me,  because I've *completely* given up hope on this notion, at least for the next few years. I try to focus on pulling out the strengths of each recording and sample engine supporting it. Along the way I notice things I can't do (or cannot do well) with each library and try not to get too distracted.

Sample libraries are not live orchestral players. They are recordings. Searchable within a tool that provides many clever ways to access and manipulate those recordings.

I can't ask them to re-record. Either a [string library] has recorded what I want, I can get close using manipulation tricks, I can find inspiration to change directions, or I move to a different recording (i.e., a different sample library).

The way I treat orchestral sample libraries is nearly identical to the way I treat synthesizers; expect little unless I invest time in "programming" them. Occasionally I'm delighted when I barely have to do any work to get something halfway decent sounding coming out the speakers.

Even when I talk about sample libraries as instruments (and I do), I think the way you've framed the difference could be refined a bit more; I think of them more like "useful for different styles" which is a bit like treating each library as a unique session musician (contradicting myself when I said they are not players; they are "like" players, with different specialties). So I wouldn't call in my session player who is best at jazz for a hard rock session. I don't know how far I can stretch the simile, but you get the idea.

I'll go back to making music now.


----------



## muk

Modern Scoring Strings is so rich in content and features, and that makes it a very interesting library. Hats off to Audiobro. Clearly, a lot of thought, planning, and know-how have gone into the creation of it.

The choice of post-production effects seems to be heavy handed. Applying eq as default, I am not a fan of that. And adding three reverbs on a library that has been recorded with room mics, that's certainly unexpected. These are signs that the aesthetical choices that have been made in engineering don't align with my personal preferences.
I don't know where these strings have been recorded. Nor who the recording engineer was. But the resulting sound tells me that they were chosen with an aesthetic ideal in mind that is different from mine.

From my limited experience with recording strings, if you don't like the recording venue, and if you are not on the same wavelenght with the recording engineer, you will not be pleased with the outcome. No matter how good the players are. Coming from a classical background, I am looking for an unprocessed concert hall sound. And MSS definitely isn't that.

I think that's what happened with this library for me. I love the features and concept of this library. I admire Audiobro's hard work. Yet their tastes in strings recordings seem to be quite different from mine.

And that tells me that I personally probably would not be happy with this library, no matter how tempting the concept is. Tastes differ, so I am sure there is a large userbase that is looking for this particular sound. And I wish Audiobro all the best with this release. It's great for us to have such fantastic developers around. It's thanks to them that we have all the choices that we have today.


----------



## biomuse

Duncan Krummel said:


> Absolutely, and of course I’m guilty of using a CSS (well, actually CSB) demo to test it. That said, I’d sooner compare this - both sonically and feature wise - to HWS.
> 
> In this regard, MSS takes the cake in terms of ease of use, resource management, and features. HWS has a similarly dry approach, not quite as raw sound, and detailed parameters, but it’s nowhere near the level of control that MSS gives you. Yes, I’m comparing a beautiful dinosaur to the shiny new kid on the block, but this is the more relevant comparison for me. I just don’t write much with HWS because it doesn’t fit the bill often.
> 
> Now one thing I DO want to try, is layering a divisi section of MSS with CSS to add some air and crispness to the sound. Might sound terrible and it’ll be a while before I can try it, but just a thought.
> 
> *Full disclosure, I don’t buy a lot of libraries. I just don’t care about them, and if I can’t work and get paid using what I have, I’m not working hard enough. So I can only compare MSS, personally, to CSS, HWS, and EWQLSO.


I have to say that your MSS examples, particularly the con sordinos, definitely constitute an affirmative answer to my question about whether MSS can "do espressivo satisfactorily." 

But even there, with the CSS examples, I get the tears rising in the throat reaction by the end of the second phrase; doesn't quite happen with even the best MSS versions. 

Different instruments for different purposes I suppose, as always. Game of inches, this music thing.


----------



## muziksculp

One thing that I find super important to consider in a Strings Library, is the instant out of the box usability & gratification. Without any major tweaking, or performing any under the hood surgery.

From the comments, and feedback from MSS users here, I'm noticing that out of the box usability, and gratification doesn't get high grades. Given the price point of this library, I think that's something to consider in evaluating it. I'm still undecided about MSS.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> That's to taste. The piece is intentionally pretty restrained. Much more movement would be inappropriate, which is why I'm glad tools like this exist.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct. It's slightly more expensive to do it this way though. I had LASS Full plus Legato Sordino, so my price for MSS full is 549, versus buying the Extended Legato for 199 and then later buying the main library for 399. But with the mixed reactions i thought it was a lower risk way of feeling things out, since i already adored the sound of the tastos


Yes, my bundle price is also 549. But I thought if you buy the bundle now instead of the main library, there will be an even further reduced price for the bundle (549 minus something considering you already have the expansion). But this isn't the case?


----------



## Casiquire

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Yes, my bundle price is also 549. But I thought if you buy the bundle now instead of the main library, there will be an even further reduced price for the bundle (549 minus something considering you already have the expansion). But this isn't the case?


I'm not sure I follow. The bundle price is the cost of both the main library and the extended, already including a discount for opening LASS


----------



## Soundbed

muk said:


> Applying eq as default, I am not a fan of that. And adding three reverbs on a library that has been recorded with room mics, that's certainly unexpected.


The EQ seems to bring the recordings closer to what most users expect. The recordings without the EQ seem to be unlike most libraries out there. In other words when I buy a Spitfire library, I expect the EQ to be part of the samples I receive. In the case of MSS, I think less has been done prior to me receiving the samples. Maybe some de-noise or minimally invasive editing but not much EQ. And the EQ in Kontakt is an approximation of what an engineer would have done before releasing the audio on a recorded album (etc.).

There are not 3 reverbs "added" by default. There are 3 convolution slots enabled, but nothing is sent to two of them.

Not trying to be critical because you articulated your views perfectly, but I think it's worth clarifying what MSS delivers.

I consider it more of a blank slate type of tool.

In the video world, many are familiar with color correction and color grading. Spitfire is often delivering the corrected, graded version of the recording -- like in their new Legendary Strings. MSS is delivering the "RAW" recording and one can color correct it first, as needed (a little EQ) and then grade it for a style/aesthetic afterwards.

None of this is meant to contradict what you are saying about the library not being aesthetically attractive to you ... you very well might not be happy with this library even if you did want the "RAW" recordings. Maybe you want different "RAW" recordings.


----------



## Evans

I think the poet was thinking more of a discount like the Orchestral Tools Soloists pack on SINE. Each, individually, has a discount right now, with an_ even further_ discount if you buy them both at once.

Not the case here, which I think it is fine.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> I'm not sure I follow. The bundle price is the cost of both the main library and the extended, already including a discount for opening LASS


Correct, but I thought the bundle price would be reduced even more if you already bought a part of it (i.e. in your case the expanded legato). Hope it's clear now. 

What does the store show you now? Is the bundle still 549?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Lazer42 said:


> One other thing I'm starting to notice as I read comments from two different points of view on this library - and as I think about similar back and forths in VSL threads - I wonder if when some people describe the sound as "synthy" and others describe it as "warm" they are both talking about the same aspect of the sound but describing it differently through the lens of whether they like it or not.


I wonder if they are taking about attack or the legtato transition. It's a very vague way describe that could be interpreted in many ways imo.


----------



## Casiquire

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Correct, but I thought the bundle price would be reduced even more if you already bought a part of it (i.e. in your case the expanded legato). Hope it's clear now.
> 
> What does the store show you now? Is the bundle still 549?


I think I'm following now haha I'm not very bright, you'll have to spell it out for me 😂 the bundle is so 549, and the remaining section is still 399


----------



## biomuse

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I wonder if they are taking about attack or the legtato transition. It's a very vague way describe that could be interpreted in many ways imo.


I think it's the sustains, where there can occasionally be a hornlike quality. Often resolvable by more consistent dynamic variation.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> I think I'm following now haha I'm not very bright, you'll have to spell it out for me 😂 the bundle is so 549, and the remaining section is still 399


D-o-n-t-s-a-y-t-h-i-s! English isn't my first tongue. Let's blame it for this.😂


----------



## Saxer

muziksculp said:


> One thing that I find super important to consider in a Strings Library, is the instant out of the box usability & gratification. Without any major tweaking, or performing any under the hood surgery.


I never used an orchestral library "out of the box". It never worked. It's like a new pair of shoes. I have to walk for a couple of days to feel really comfortable.


----------



## Toecutter

Watching this 

Is it me or sul pont is totally out of tune?! 1:46  
Even if the main library didn't do it for me I was at least hoping the expansion pack would be a good addition to my other libraries but what Im hearing in this video is even less impressive.


----------



## Soundbed

Legato. I turned off "fancy" things so these are basically all "Leg" transitions with Leg-Speed set to Auto. Meaning no Gliss or Port from MSS.

This experiment: I pulled up a short cue I wrote for Ark 2 but it's not particularly "emotive" ... you won't cry.

What do you think of the sound of MSS?

This is typically the B side(s) of the divisi only, and the violins 2 only, and uses extended sordino for the cellos and bass. Cellos have some brightness dialed up (on the front panel) ... Ark 2 has the low strings "half sordino" as I recall (?) so i was going for that type of intention. I started dialing up a touch of "detune" to match the Ark 2 as well (but "humanization" was off). The video tries to whip through every screen for every instrument.

Hope this is helpful to at least 2 people?



The mic balances were particularly tricky because the OT Ark 2 dynamics levels / ranges simply did not match what I was getting from MSS and it would take eons to automate everything to make one library with divisi sections mimic another library with lightly "orchestrated" sections like "high strings" "mid strings" and "low strings" in octaves... but it's ... sort of close.

My overall impression of the tone of MSS so far is that it's a bit boxy (hey I used a word that's not synthy) in the sense that -- especially contrasted with Ark 2 -- it doesn't have as much "breath" and "life" from what I can tell, out of the box, with/without EQ, convolution, mic positions, yadda yadda, all ways I've tried.

Another way of saying it: I'm not feeling like I'm in the room with the players quite as much. That said, these Ark 2 low strings only come in octaves legato. I cannot choose violins 1 and 2 with Ark 2. So it's all trade-offs, right? (I have all the Arks but no Berlin strings.)

*This boxiness goes away a bit when I start using one divisi at a time*.

But I will be looking for ways to create more "air" and "space" without unnatural EQ. It's very tricky. There are some resonant frequencies that might need to be removed, I think, and some ... well "air" that needs to be brought out a bit I think but I haven't quite figured it all out yet. Like I said in my previous post, it's sort of like starting with RAW video and color correcting it (yourself if you don't like the default EQ) and then color grading it (yourself, or testing out the Stage and Depth controls, which haven't helped me so far).

Not instant gratification. Out of the box I can pull up LASS and get a sound I embrace quickly (dry or with the provided reverb presets). Same with Ark 2 legato strings. MSS is a bit of a tougher nut to crack so to speak, and will take some time to "dial in" for me.


----------



## Batrawi

Toecutter said:


> Watching this
> 
> Is it me or sul pont is totally out of tune?! 1:46
> Even if the main library didn't do it for me I was at least hoping the expansion pack would be a good addition to my other libraries but what Im hearing in this video is even less impressive.



just the E note which is a bit out of tune (nothing that the "detuning" function can't fix I guess)... Otherwise, it's sul pont you know... not perfectly tuned by nature


----------



## muk

Soundbed said:


> There are not 3 reverbs "added" by default. There are 3 convolution slots enabled, but nothing is sent to two of them.


Thanks for clarifying, I misinterpreted an earlier comment to mean that three reverbs are active on default.



Soundbed said:


> The EQ seems to bring the recordings closer to what most users expect. The recordings without the EQ seem to be unlike most libraries out there. In other words when I buy a Spitfire library, I expect the EQ to be part of the samples I receive. In the case of MSS, I think less has been done prior to me receiving the samples. Maybe some de-noise or minimally invasive editing but not much EQ. And the EQ in Kontakt is an approximation of what an engineer would have done before releasing the audio on a recorded album (etc.).


I don't think that most samples have eq baked in, and it definitely isn't what I am looking for. The classical concert hall sound I am looking for is achieved either completely without, or with very little post-processing. It's the interaction of a great hall and recording techniques. MSS has been recorded with a very different intent obviously. Its raw sound - as far as I could glimpse it from the shorts video and user demos - isn't what I am looking for either.


----------



## FireGS

muk said:


> The classical concert hall sound I am looking for is achieved either completely without, or with very little post-processing.


Really? I'd bet a lot of engineers would disagree on that...


----------



## Casiquire

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> D-o-n-t-s-a-y-t-h-i-s! English isn't my first tongue. Let's blame it for this.😂


I didn't even notice. Your English is fantastic.


----------



## AndyP

muziksculp said:


> One thing that I find super important to consider in a Strings Library, is the instant out of the box usability & gratification. Without any major tweaking, or performing any under the hood surgery.
> 
> From the comments, and feedback from MSS users here, I'm noticing that out of the box usability, and gratification doesn't get high grades. Given the price point of this library, I think that's something to consider in evaluating it. I'm still undecided about MSS.


This is exactly the point why I already thought when watching the videos: great idea, but I got slight stress attacks just watching how many parameters you can or have to change to be able to use the variability.
And the reports of those who have purchased MSS do not give me more hope.

With a lot of training and patience, I'm sure you can get great results, but I'm leaning more towards easy to play libraries like those from performance samples.

And if the sound doesn't blow me away, it's just not my library, even if I find some things good. In the end, the price also plays a role. But for all those who have no problems with the complexity and need or want this sound, it is then just the right thing.

If I didn't have Synchron Strings Pro, BBO and more I might consider MSS, especially because of the Aleatoric features. 

From this point of view there are no right or wrong opinions, but different opinions and tastes. And that is good.


----------



## Evans

If sample modeling stresses you out, consider MSS. If MSS stresses you out, try Synchron Strings. If Synchron Strings stresses you out, try some pre-made loops.


----------



## Casiquire

I


AndyP said:


> This is exactly the point why I already thought when watching the videos: great idea, but I got slight stress attacks just watching how many parameters you can or have to change to be able to use the variability.
> And the reports of those who have purchased MSS do not give me more hope.
> 
> With a lot of training and patience, I'm sure you can get great results, but I'm leaning more towards easy to play libraries like those from performance samples.
> 
> And if the sound doesn't blow me away, it's just not my library, even if I find some things good. In the end, the price also plays a role. But for all those who have no problems with the complexity and need or want this sound, it is then just the right thing.
> 
> If I didn't have Synchron Strings Pro, BBO and more I might consider MSS, especially because of the Aleatoric features.
> 
> From this point of view there are no right or wrong opinions, but different opinions and tastes. And that is good.


Think this is the takeaway. If you don't like the sound itself, it's not for you, and that's fine!


----------



## CT

FireGS said:


> Really? I'd bet a lot of engineers would disagree on that...


It very much depends on which school of classical recording we're talking about. But there's certainly also "a lot" who would completely agree with a minimally processed approach.


----------



## Bollen

novaburst said:


> have given us the best of the best in sample library's


I couldn't agree more, hence my surprise at the FCs. Like I said before, Audiobro is like the Rolls Royce of sample libraries. No hard feelings at all...


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


>



which legato is this please? Sul Tasto?


----------



## Lazer42

novaburst said:


> It's OK, I hear you, hope all is ok, _I think from where I am coming from is these guys Audiobro have been in this game for years and have given us the best of the best in sample library's but some of the comments make them seem like they don't know what they are doing,
> 
> IIt is a big library and a lot to learn, it just kind of seems like people know that there are mistakes in a few of the demos or mockups and they are just riding it to slam the library
> 
> Anyway hope there is no hard feeling I guess at the end of the day we can show our dislike to library's in what way we choose, I guess it's just the way it is. _


The desire to "stick up for" the developers is very admirable. I think all too often we forget the people who are behind things that we criticize.

I also think that on the other side, we have to try to keep in mind that it's possible for someone to be critical of a thing even while respecting and giving credit to those who made it. Nobody hits a home run every time or even just succeeds at every 100% of the things they do. Even Mozart has a piece or two which are not quite as good as one might ordinarily expect from him, and in saying so nobody would be saying that Mozart wasn't a master.

I'm undecided on MSS, though lean in favor of disliking it, and I can certainly appreciate that some people like it and some dislike it. I don't think someone saying that the library isn't very good has to be saying that Audiobro don't know what they're doing. They may just consider this a miss from a strong developer - or, like another person said above, simply have different tastes in sound than what the library was created to suit.


----------



## muziksculp

Saxer said:


> I never used an orchestral library "out of the box". It never worked. It's like a new pair of shoes. I have to walk for a couple of days to feel really comfortable.


Very True. But it also depends on how much work is needed to make sound to taste.


----------



## Lazer42

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I wonder if they are taking about attack or the legtato transition. It's a very vague way describe that could be interpreted in many ways imo.


I am a person who does think it sounds a bit synthy, but at least in my case I am not thinking of the attack or legato. It's something about the overall character of the sound. I previously described it as saying that if you took a long sustain and ignored the attack or legato that it's something that can be heard in _that _portion of the sound which sounds artificial to me. 

It's very difficult to describe other than to say that it reminds me a bit of the strings in an old FM synthesizer from a Soundblaster or something. It's _not _the entire sound_. _The MSS samples do sound like a recording of real strings in a way that the FM synthesizer never did, but there is some aspect of the sound which reminds me of it, almost like somebody took some range of frequencies from an OPL3 string section and overlaid it onto a recording of real strings.


----------



## muk

FireGS said:


> Really? I'd bet a lot of engineers would disagree on that...



Yes. I've witnessed quite a few classical recordings (I work for an opera orchestra). Post-production is minimal. Currently, due to Covid, there are a lot of broadcasts. I've talked to our audio engineer at lenght. They don't use eq at all, nor reverb. It's all done through mic placement and choice of microphones. I know other classical recordings where a very light touch of reverb was added. But if that can be avoided, it is. In any case you would never use eq or similar to change the timbre or the character of the sound. Conductor and orchestra would never agree to that.

Edit: @Mike T was faster than I was. There are different schools, and different aesthetic ideals. Audiobro's approach doesn't match my personal preference. That doesn't make their approach wrong of course. But it makes the library the wrong choice for me.


----------



## Lazer42

biomuse said:


> I think it's the sustains, where there can occasionally be a hornlike quality. Often resolvable by more consistent dynamic variation.


Yes, I agree it is the sustains - not sustains as in sustain patches, but as in attack/decay/sustain/release. I don't know if I'd personally describe it as a hornlike quality, but it's not the attacks or the transitions that are bothering me. The transitions are fine to my ear at transitioning between the sustains the way they are. It's the sustains themselves which are triggering my "fake detector."


----------



## Soundbed

muk said:


> I don't think that most samples have eq baked in


It's a matter of degree of course, but I'd wager "most" orchestral sample libraries that we've all purchased have some EQ baked in. 🤷🏻‍♂️ I might be wrong.



muk said:


> The classical concert hall sound I am looking for is achieved either completely without, or with very little post-processing. It's the interaction of a great hall and recording techniques.


Definitely agree that great players in a great space with great mics and pres and recording equipment and mic placement and levels balancing and (what did I leave out?) are the key to a certain sound. The level of post processing applied is certainly a matter of debate. The harp "noise" in a recent Performance Samples release comes to mind  ... I don't own that one it but goes to show, diff'rent strokes.


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> which legato is this please? Sul Tasto?


Correct! With some modifications. The sordino is really great too


----------



## Soundbed

muk said:


> Yes. I've witnessed quite a few classical recordings (I work for an opera orchestra). Post-production is minimal. Currently, due to Covid, there are a lot of broadcasts. I've talked to our audio engineer at lenght. They don't use eq at all, nor reverb. It's all done through mic placement and choice of microphones. I know other classical recordings where a very light touch of reverb was added. But if that can be avoided, it is. In any case you would never use eq or similar to change the timbre or the character of the sound. Conductor and orchestra would never agree to that.


So you're buying Abbey Road Legendary Low Strings then, I take it? 

I kid, I kid. 😆


----------



## muk

Soundbed said:


> So you're buying Abbey Road Legendary Low Strings then, I take it?
> 
> I kid, I kid. 😆



If only it had a synth or two layered with the celli and basses, I totally would


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Soundbed said:


> Legato. I turned off "fancy" things so these are basically all "Leg" transitions with Leg-Speed set to Auto. Meaning no Gliss or Port from MSS.
> 
> This experiment: I pulled up a short cue I wrote for Ark 2 but it's not particularly "emotive" ... you won't cry.
> 
> What do you think of the sound of MSS?
> 
> This is typically the B side(s) of the divisi only, and the violins 2 only, and uses extended sordino for the cellos and bass. Cellos have some brightness dialed up (on the front panel) ... Ark 2 has the low strings "half sordino" as I recall (?) so i was going for that type of intention. I started dialing up a touch of "detune" to match the Ark 2 as well (but "humanization" was off). The video tries to whip through every screen for every instrument.
> 
> Hope this is helpful to at least 2 people?
> 
> 
> 
> The mic balances were particularly tricky because the OT Ark 2 dynamics levels / ranges simply did not match what I was getting from MSS and it would take eons to automate everything to make one library with divisi sections mimic another library with lightly "orchestrated" sections like "high strings" "mid strings" and "low strings" in octaves... but it's ... sort of close.
> 
> My overall impression of the tone of MSS so far is that it's a bit boxy (hey I used a word that's not synthy) in the sense that -- especially contrasted with Ark 2 -- it doesn't have as much "breath" and "life" from what I can tell, out of the box, with/without EQ, convolution, mic positions, yadda yadda, all ways I've tried.
> 
> Another way of saying it: I'm not feeling like I'm in the room with the players quite as much. That said, these Ark 2 low strings only come in octaves legato. I cannot choose violins 1 and 2 with Ark 2. So it's all trade-offs, right? (I have all the Arks but no Berlin strings.)
> 
> *This boxiness goes away a bit when I start using one divisi at a time*.
> 
> But I will be looking for ways to create more "air" and "space" without unnatural EQ. It's very tricky. There are some resonant frequencies that might need to be removed, I think, and some ... well "air" that needs to be brought out a bit I think but I haven't quite figured it all out yet. Like I said in my previous post, it's sort of like starting with RAW video and color correcting it (yourself if you don't like the default EQ) and then color grading it (yourself, or testing out the Stage and Depth controls, which haven't helped me so far).
> 
> Not instant gratification. Out of the box I can pull up LASS and get a sound I embrace quickly (dry or with the provided reverb presets). Same with Ark 2 legato strings. MSS is a bit of a tougher nut to crack so to speak, and will take some time to "dial in" for me.



1st i think that was a great miss-opportunity to use those ostinatos.  But seriously, what it shows is what we heard before when we use a midi file program with other libraries like CSS and have MSS play it and that the "normal" legato doesn't work very well at doing real legato lines. I'm talking about the transition here. It's not so much that MSS legato is bad but that it's actually a fast legato with a small accent I'd say. Now there's nothing wrong with this articulation and it seems to work pretty good on fast passage. But if you try to play line like you did where a smooth/slower legato is needed it falls short. Whis leads me to think that the logato present in MSS are not bad but it's that there's one missing in the middle. If you consider gliss and portamento as legatos, MSS has 2 very slow legatos and then it jumps right to fast legatos with the normal and then the accent legato(which is very good imo). So fixing that would help this library a lot. now hopefully I'm not gonna offend the fanboys and that this will be seen as constructive criticism.

Also, people say it's not fair to use a midi file programmed with an other string libraries and i think it's mostly BS(sure you can optimize it for a particular library of course). But a legato is a legato like a hammer is a hammer. A legato in the proper sense of the word is a note that is meant to be continuous with no bumbs or hick ups and that includes during note transitions. And if you use midi file with legatos from 1 lib. and use that with other libary it should sound pretty similar provided both library offers legatos. Now if you guys can prove me wrong and that there's a control that can turn that rather fast legato into a smooth legato then great. But i don't think it's very realistic if it was recorded that way. Also, these things should pretty much work out of the box. I think those midi file done with other library were very revealing.

P.S. I don't own the libary so i can only judge from what I'm hearing hear in the user demos so it's not like i have it here and it's difficult to be a 100% sure but that's what I'm hearing.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> Correct! With some modifications. The sordino is really great too


Yea that's what i though. That legatos is the smoothest of the bunch. Thanks.


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Yea that's what i though. That legatos is the smoothest of the bunch. Thanks.


I think so too, but it's difficult to tell how much of it is the recording and how much of it is my tweaking. Wish i could test out the main library before making the call whether to go all in or not


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

AndyP said:


> This is exactly the point why I already thought when watching the videos: great idea, but I got slight stress attacks just watching how many parameters you can or have to change to be able to use the variability.
> And the reports of those who have purchased MSS do not give me more hope.
> 
> With a lot of training and patience, I'm sure you can get great results, but I'm leaning more towards easy to play libraries like those from performance samples.
> 
> And if the sound doesn't blow me away, it's just not my library, even if I find some things good. In the end, the price also plays a role. But for all those who have no problems with the complexity and need or want this sound, it is then just the right thing.
> 
> If I didn't have Synchron Strings Pro, BBO and more I might consider MSS, especially because of the Aleatoric features.
> 
> From this point of view there are no right or wrong opinions, but different opinions and tastes. And that is good.


Feeling very similarly. MSS seems to be full of impressive technical achievements and expansive flexibility, but that comes at the possible cost of workflow / writing quickly. Unless of course, you can really tune the parameters once and save the patch based on that. But it's like testing out a matrix of combinations to find the needle in the haystack. Which is totally fine and will appeal to some people I imagine.

But as I mentioned earlier, like you, for me sample libraries ultimately come down to tone and if you vibe with that tone. Lot of modeling instruments out there with unparalleled playability and flexibility, but personally, their tones fall well short in most cases (I own some).

That's why I chuckle when I see some comments like "I don't care about the room or who mixed it". There's a reason why things sound the way they do.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Also, i can't help to point out the ironi here when people say this libary doesn't work out of the box and you can't just pluck chords etc.. considering the whole divisi concept is to just play chords and the script will do the rest for you  (Which it seems to do pretty well). But i know what you mean guys.

I'm keeping a close eye on this library and i'm confident the guys @ AB will improve it just like they improved ALSS.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> I think so too, but it's difficult to tell how much of it is the recording and how much of it is my tweaking. Wish i could test out the main library before making the call whether to go all in or not


I noticed it from other demos so I'm pretty sure it's backed in. plus i think it might be the nature of that playing technique. Not a violist so i could be wrong about that.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Casiquire said:


> I think so too, but it's difficult to tell how much of it is the recording and how much of it is my tweaking. Wish i could test out the main library before making the call whether to go all in or not


Yes, would be really great to have something like Best Service with their "try-sound engine" or VSL's "audition credit". Pity that there isn't anything else. Maybe there is a tool which enables you to remotely play the library from a computer of someone who have purchased the library. 😜


----------



## Raphioli

Casiquire said:


> Wish i could test out the main library before making the call whether to go all in or not


This.
If I was able to demo it, I would just test it out (tweak those parameters and see if it can achieve a musical legato) and move on.
I wouldn't need to keep on debating here lol

As much as I hate their dongle policy, being able to get a refund if you don't like it is a huge plus on VSL's part.


----------



## Lazer42

Raphioli said:


> This.
> If I was able to demo it, I would just test it out (tweak those parameters and see if it can achieve a musical legato) and move on.
> I wouldn't need to keep on debating here lol
> 
> As much as I hate their dongle policy, being able to get a refund if you don't like it is a huge plus on VSL's part.


If more developers had some kind of demo or something like VSL or Best Service, I would likely have purchased far more libraries.


----------



## biomuse

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Also, people say it's not fair to use a midi file programmed with an other string libraries and i think it's mostly BS(sure you can optimize it for a particular library of course). But a legato is a legato like a hammer is a hammer. A legato in the proper sense of the word is a note that is meant to be continuous with no bumbs or hick ups and that includes during note transitions. And if you use midi file with legatos from 1 lib. and use that with other libary it should sound pretty similar provided both library offers legatos.


No. This underestimates the breadth of different approaches to reconstructing legato from sampled material. It‘s not just, or even mostly, the transitions themselves that are the issue with a convincing expressive part. It’s the sculpting of the notes leading into and out of those transitions, as well as the selection of the speed and loudness of the transitions. Some libraries such as, to take extreme examples, Performance Samples libs or the Tina Guo series from Cinesamples, bake in a great deal of the overall expressive contour, and even place the crossover points before the “transitions” begin. Some, like Audiobro, want to allow for more flexibility, allowing both chilly and expressive writing, and try to separate expression from the samples themselves, and the transitions from the sustain in an intentionally more modular way, such that CC variation must do more of the work for certain styles. You absolutely can’t expect that the same file will sound great across these approaches.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

biomuse said:


> No. This underestimates the breadth of different approaches to reconstructing legato from sampled material. It‘s not just, or even mostly, the transitions themselves that are the issue with a convincing expressive part. It’s the sculpting of the notes leading into and out of those transitions, as well as the selection of the speed and loudness of the transitions. Some libraries such as, to take extreme examples, Performance Samples libs or the Tina Guo series from Cinesamples, bake in a great deal of the overall expressive contour, and even place the crossover points before the “transitions” begin. Some, like Audiobro, want to allow for more flexibility, allowing both chilly and expressive writing, and try to separate expression from the samples themselves, and the transitions from the sustain in an intentionally more modular way, such that CC variation must do more of the work for certain styles. You absolutely can’t expect that the same file will sound great across these approaches.


i don't dissagree. But my focus was precisely on the transition part. That's what stood out the most wen MSS was played with those midi files.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Lazer42 said:


> If more developers had some kind of demo or something like VSL or Best Service, I would likely have purchased far more libraries.


Interesting cause I'm pretty sure i would have bought far less. If you know what i mean...


----------



## Vik

Lazer42 said:


> If more developers had some kind of demo or something like VSL or Best Service, I would likely have purchased far more libraries.


The ideal solution for some of us would be if one could buy one section at a time. If that instrument is really good, many of us would buy the others as well. Some developers already have that option.

EDIT: they could even release one instrument at a time, gather feedback from customers and potential customers before they create or release the next instrument. It could be a lot of money saved right there (both for users and the developers).
Some of them probably don't record all the sections in one go anyway, and it seems that some of them recorded the V1 first, and then the V2, based on the experiences they got from the V1 recording (because the V2 sounds more believable than the V1). Starting with the V2 would IMHO been a better idea.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I should say i haven't listen yet to all Dunken's files so maybe my opinion wil chnage. I almost forgot about those. BTW thank you very much Dunken.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Vik said:


> The ideal solution for some of us would be if one could buy one section at a time. If that instruments is really good, many of us would by the others as well. Some developers already have that option.


Those certain developers are getting small purchases from me more frequently now, and will continue to as they offer more libraries in this format, when I would likely have never bought the full libraries


----------



## Raphioli

Vik said:


> The ideal solution for some of us would be if one could buy one section at a time. If that instruments is really good, many of us would by the others as well. Some developers already have that option.


Subscription also works too. (e.g. EW)
I don't like subscriptions if I want to obtain a product, I'd like to purchase once.
But for demoing purposes, while some may not want to pay just to demo, I'd personally gladly sub for a month to demo.
Its far less than buying an expensive library, so you don't have to take a huge risk.


----------



## ChristianM

novaburst said:


> It's OK, I hear you, hope all is ok, _I think from where I am coming from is these guys Audiobro have been in this game for years and have given us the best of the best in sample library's but some of the comments make them seem like they don't know what they are doing,
> 
> IIt is a big library and a lot to learn, it just kind of seems like people know that there are mistakes in a few of the demos or mockups and they are just riding it to slam the library
> 
> Anyway hope there is no hard feeling I guess at the end of the day we can show our dislike to library's in what way we choose, I guess it's just the way it is. _


MSS is great !! The best by far!


----------



## Vik

SHANE TURNER said:


> Those certain developers are getting small purchases from me more frequently now, and will continue to as they offer more libraries in this format, when I would likely have never bought the full libraries


Yeah, that's it. I recently tried to buy the OT Symphonic Strings cello, and probably wouldn't have bought the whole package anyway, so they wouldn't lose any money on me buying that one (the sale failed since my BS purchase didn't show up when I tried to buy that cello and when I was told I had to reregister my serial numbers, the sale was over - and my discount expired). 

And, Raphioli, subscriptions may be useful for some people, even if they'll probably turn out very expensive if you'll use the library for 10 years. But why not offer both: a subscription for people who want to try it for a week or a month, and free choice between purchase and subscription after that?


----------



## Raphioli

Vik said:


> And, Raphioli, subscriptions may be useful for some people, even if they'll probably turn out very expensive if you'll use the library for 10 years. But why not offer both: a subscription for people who want to try it for a week or a month, and free choice between purchase and subscription after that?


Yes that's what I meant. 
I'd sub to demo it and buy it if I end up liking it.
Sorry if my post was confusing.


----------



## borisb2

Sorry for putting out that CSS-piece - I thought the MSS version sounded not too bad.



Living Fossil said:


> You have four interacting parameters in Legato besides from CC1 which you have to adjust to the musical phrase. In short: it's not the easiest to use library so far





biomuse said:


> 1. An existing file cannot be dropped on MSS. The piece needs to be, if not written to, at least performed into MSS afresh. This is because:


I did spend about 2 hours to get CC1, rebow automation, sustain articulations (cresc/normal/accented) and vibrato in line .. but there's still a lot of room for improvement (as mentioned I will have another go if time allows - heck, its weekend!) .. so yes, it is really work to shape the lines but I hope at the end its worth it ..



Evans said:


> But if I'm playing a blues lead, I'm not going to pick one up that I'm most comfortable with for rhythm work.


Thats fine. But when you bought that rhythm-guitar, I'm sure you played 1 or 2 solos on it to see how it performs - and thats whats happening here. Kind of a stress test. Again, I think MSS sounds good enough, it doesnt need to sound intimate like CSS, I have CSS. But its good to see what are the limits (I could imagine HWS struggles a lot more to get an intimate sound like in that CSS-piece). I also agree to @Batrawi that I do like the more subtle vibrato in MSS. If Alex Wallbank would have given us a vibrato control in CSS (incl. legato transitions).. well I dont want to imagine that.. but one can dream 




Casiquire said:


> Wish i could test out the main library before making the call


come to wellington - covid free ;p


----------



## Soundbed

Here's some more legato playing, both fast and slow, directly into MSS.



Main package's arco, plus the Expanded Legato con sord, sul tasto and sul pont.

Cellos (only), played directly into MSS with fairly straightforward legato settings.

I turned the gliss way down to velocity 1-2 and the port down to 3-28 so most of the transitions are the "Leg" with the Auto mode sometimes adjusting the Leg Speed dial.

Again these were played FOR the MSS Arco cellos with no "post" editing of the MIDI.

Then, re-played that MIDI from the DAW for the Sordino, Sul Tasto and Sul Pont flavors.

PS - The Sul Tasto should have had the slider moved to Cresc during the slow parts, but most of the transitions were legato so it shouldn't make a huge difference because that slider only changes the "start" portion of a phrase, I believe.


----------



## Sovereign

borisb2 said:


> If Alex Wallbank would have given us an vibrato control in CSS (incl legato transitions).. well I dont want to imagine that.. but one can dream


Just a brief comment on this, but there is vibrato control in CSS, though there is an issue with it. While you can dial back the vib (my personal preference hovers around cc 70) the amount of vibrato on the two seconds of any interval playing is not reduced. Alex could fix this by simply recording and adding NV intervals, it's one of the biggest omissions of CSS IMO.


----------



## borisb2

Soundbed said:


> Cellos (only), played directly into MSS with fairly straightforward legato settings.


fancy to do the same for violins?



Sovereign said:


> the amount of vibrato on the two seconds of any interval playing is not reduced. Alex could fix this by simply recording NV intervals, it's one of the biggest omissions of CSS IMO.


exactly!

The moment Alex would put up these recordings on the server I would buy and download .001s later


----------



## Soundbed

fwiw here's the default EQ settings in the Extended Legato cellos:




and the only reverb send (by default) for those cellos is -12.8dB:




also, there are Kontakt snapshots to load sections unprocessed:


----------



## Noc

Question for folks who have MSS: Is there any visual indicator in the GUI when legato/port./gliss. transitions are triggered vs. when they aren’t (playing détaché)? LASS and CSS both show you when transition samples are triggered vs. when they aren’t (LASS even shows you the specific interval, which is a fun little bonus), which is very useful to me.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noc said:


> Question for folks who have MSS: Is there any visual indicator in the GUI when legato/port./gliss. transitions are triggered vs. when they aren’t (playing détaché)? LASS and CSS both show you when transition samples are triggered vs. when they aren’t (LASS even shows you the specific interval, which is a fun little bonus), which is very useful to me.


I don't have it, but it's clearly visible.


----------



## Noc

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I don't have it, but it's clearly visible.


I’m aware of that section, but from what I can tell, those are just legato controls, rather than indicators telling you when legato is actually triggered.

Take this video, for instance:


Here, when legatos are played, there’s no movement or indication around the LPG slider, and though see the “Leg Speed” knob fidget, it’s just following the automation. I’m not really seeing any unmistakable on/off indicator. Of course, I could very well just be missing something.

It isn’t a big issue or anything, but it’s an extra touch I like to see in legato libraries, especially since I’m still working on my ear training to recognize legato vs. non-legato transitions.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Noc said:


> I’m aware of that section, but from what I can tell, those are just legato controls, rather than indicators telling you when legato is actually triggered.
> 
> Take this video, for instance:
> 
> 
> Here, when legatos are played, there’s no movement or indication around the LPG slider, and though see the “Leg Speed” knob fidget, it’s just following the automation. I’m not really seeing any unmistakable on/off indicator. Of course, I could very well just be missing something.
> 
> It isn’t a big issue or anything, but it’s an extra touch I like to see in legato libraries, especially since I’m still working on my ear training to recognize legato vs. non-legato transitions.



Legato is on, becasue the corresponding button is highlighted in yellow. Don't know. But you can see that there are _no_ separation bars. I think @Soundbed disabled the ports and glisses here, or chose a different trigger mode. I think the later is true, also for the attacks. In my screenshot you can clearly see the thresholds (which are definable), like in LASS. I think you only see these when selecting certain trigger modes, e.g. velocity.


----------



## Evans

Noc said:


> I’m aware of that section, but from what I can tell, those are just legato controls, rather than indicators telling you when legato is actually triggered.


In the screenshot, it is on "Inverted Velocity" mode.

Look at the two little arrow heads just barely to the top-left of the "Leg" text, one pointing down (from above the horizontal line) and one pointing up (from below the horizontal line). Those arrows indicate the type of the _current_ note (Gliss/Port/Leg).

In that same screenshot, the vertical dividers - separating the bar into three segments - determine the velocity ranges that control which type gets called. You can drag these around. The general idea is that softer key presses trigger Gliss, then Port a little harder, and finally Leg.

In that screenshot, the double arrows are in the part of the bar that's been assigned for a vanilla legato transition, not port or gliss.

In the video, another mode was chosen: "Slider." You can set a CC assignment to control the slider, or just drag it somewhere and leave it be, if you only want one type for that patch.

"Velocity" is another mode, which flip-flops the order to Leg/Port/Gliss.


----------



## ansthenia

I'd really, really love a legato speed in between portamento and normal. I feel like normal is too fast and portamento is too slow for lots of stuff I'm trying to play with it, even adjusting the legato transition speed knob.


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> Here's some more legato playing, both fast and slow, directly into MSS.
> 
> 
> 
> Main package's arco, plus the Expanded Legato con sord, sul tasto and sul pont.
> 
> Cellos (only), played directly into MSS with fairly straightforward legato settings.
> 
> I turned the gliss way down to velocity 1-2 and the port down to 3-28 so most of the transitions are the "Leg" with the Auto mode sometimes adjusting the Leg Speed dial.
> 
> Again these were played FOR the MSS Arco cellos with no "post" editing of the MIDI.
> 
> Then, re-played that MIDI from the DAW for the Sordino, Sul Tasto and Sul Pont flavors.
> 
> PS - The Sul Tasto should have had the slider moved to Cresc during the slow parts, but most of the transitions were legato so it shouldn't make a huge difference because that slider only changes the "start" portion of a phrase, I believe.



Do you actually hear a difference with the Cresc slider in the sul tasto? They sound mechanically identical to me


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

What is HWS? I tried but can't figure it out. thank in advance.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

ansthenia said:


> I'd really, really love a legato speed in between portamento and normal. I feel like normal is too fast and portamento is too slow for lots of stuff I'm trying to play with it, even adjusting the legato transition speed knob.


And what about increasing the portamento speed? 🤷‍♂️ I think you already tried?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> What is HWS? I tried but can't figure it out. thank in advance.


Hollywood Strings ... isn't it? We have too many acronyms.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Hollywood Strings ... isn't it? We have too many acronyms.


You bet we have.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Hollywood Strings ... isn't it? We have too many acronyms.


Hollywood Strings acronym is usually EWHS i think.


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Hollywood Strings acronym is usually EWHS i think.


No, four letters is too much for the TRULY lazy like me, let's get it down to three


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> No, four letters is too much for the TRULY lazy like me, let's get it down to three


Wow i found my mach. A guy lazier than me...


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

ansthenia said:


> I'd really, really love a legato speed in between portamento and normal. I feel like normal is too fast and portamento is too slow for lots of stuff I'm trying to play with it, even adjusting the legato transition speed knob.


You should email them. In the mean time i guess you could try to lower the volume transition and ride that CC1 as much as you can.


----------



## dzilizzi

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> You bet we have.


I vote for more acronyms. And multiple ones for each library! 

Hollywood Strings is sometimes EWHS and sometimes HWS - which actually makes no sense because Hollywood is a single word.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> You should email them.


Haha, first I thought "What the ..., emailing transitions?“ Ok. Time for bed! 😂


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> Do you actually hear a difference with the Cresc slider in the sul tasto? They sound mechanically identical to me


haha! I just assumed it would sound different lol. I'll check laters.


----------



## Soundbed

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I think @Soundbed disabled the ports and glisses here, or chose a different trigger mode.


Yes I didn't want to hear the gliss or port at all so I chose "slider" mode which obeys the slider, which I did not change.


----------



## Soundbed

Evans said:


> In that same screenshot, the vertical dividers - separating the bar into thirds - determine the velocity ranges that control which type gets called. You can drag these around. The general idea is that softer key presses trigger Gliss, then Port a little harder, and finally Leg.


Exactly and I have been dragging the Gliss to around 1-1 and the port to 2-10 or so, that way most of my transitions are the "Leg."

But yes (to anyone asking) the interface shows you which transition it selected for you in those velocity trigger modes.


----------



## Soundbed

Violin noodling, by request from @borisb2 

0:00 Arco
2:36 Sul Pont
3:19 Sul Tasto
4:28 Con Sord
5:49 Flipping around (played using Arco)



I was really impressed with the extremely high range. During one of the highest sections I'd switched to Sul Pont during video recording, so ... what I originally heard might not translate (although it's still impressive I think) ... but that arco was really nice up in the stratosphere (well, I thought). I probably spent too much time in the highest registers but they were calling to me for some reason. The lowest and middle ranges did not have my number this afternoon.

All these were played using Arco. During the playback, I switched to different bowing techniques and the con sord from the Expanded pack.


----------



## Batrawi

dzilizzi said:


> Hollywood Strings is sometimes EWHS and sometimes HWS - which actually makes no sense because Hollywood is a single word


well EastWest is also a single word so it makes no sense of saying EW either. I'd vote for an even shorter acronym HS, but since that's not fancy enough nor matching the usual 3-letters acronym rule, I see why HWS is commonly used as a middle ground (non-sense) solution 😉


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Batrawi said:


> well EastWest is also a single word so it makes no sense of saying EW either. I'd vote for an even shorter acronym HS, but since that's not fancy enough nor matching the usual 3-letters acronym rule, I see why HWS is commonly used as a middle ground (non-sense) solution 😉


And what about Holly Wood Strings? Holly Wood are two words. 😁


----------



## Batrawi

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> And what about Holly Wood Strings? Holly Wood are two words. 😁


that's why I said HWS is the mid-ground (non-sense) solution often used by many here, which in all cases sound better than the too long (non-sense) EWHS😄


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> well EastWest is also a single word so it makes no sense of saying EW either. I'd vote for an even shorter acronym HS, but since that's not fancy enough nor matching the usual 3-letters acronym rule, I see why HWS is commonly used as a middle ground (non-sense) solution 😉


I say HS if I've already mentioned the library by name earlier in the post


----------



## Vik

Soundbed said:


> 3:19 Sul Tasto
> 4:28 Con Sord


Hi, and thanks for providing demos! Out of sheer curiosity: Why are Sul Tastos and Con Sordinos, which already sound more mellow than normal legatos/sustains, mainly played in the lower third of the dynamic range?


----------



## Soundbed

Vik said:


> Hi, and thanks for providing demos! Out of sheer curiosity: Why are Sul Tastos and Con Sordinos, which already sound more mellow than normal legatos/sustains, mainly played in the lower third of the dynamic range?


What would you have preferred / expected?


----------



## Wunderhorn

Vik said:


> Hi, and thanks for providing demos! Out of sheer curiosity: Why are Sul Tastos and Con Sordinos, which already sound more mellow than normal legatos/sustains, mainly played in the lower third of the dynamic range?


Because that dynamic range is the most applicable for these articulations... You don't write phrases with sordino or sul tasto in _fff_. In most cases that would be just not very realistic. The result would be that it sounds strained and someone would pipe up again and call it "synthy".


----------



## bvaughn0402

I've been testing it out today, and started writing music with it (always a great indication that it is good). Mostly dealing with the ostinatos.

Most of what I do is combine it with other things. So I can see me combining this with BS or CSS. 

It sounds great thus far!


----------



## muziksculp

bvaughn0402 said:


> I've been testing it out today, and started writing music with it (always a great indication that it is good). Mostly dealing with the ostinatos.
> 
> Most of what I do is combine it with other things. So I can see me combining this with BS or CSS.
> 
> It sounds great thus far!


*Congratulatons !*

Did you get the Legato Exp. library as well ?


----------



## bvaughn0402

muziksculp said:


> *Congratulatons !*
> 
> Did you get the Legato Exp. library as well ?


I did. I haven't even tried those yet.

I like it, but again, I approach it like a guitar. I don't want "one guitar". Because they all sound different. I have to remind myself that strings (and pianos) are like that.

That instead of the "holy grail" of one library that is all I use ... instead, combine them together to create complex sounds.

I think BSS are the closest to "one library" for me. Which is funny ... because when I play them by themselves, I don't usually like them. But they seem to mix good on my songs, more than CSS.

So I doubt I use MSS exclusively (except for FX and Ostinatos maybe).


----------



## borisb2

Batrawi said:


> that's why I said HWS is the mid-ground (non-sense) solution often used by many here, which in all cases sound better than the too long (non-sense) EWHS😄


I can live with HS, HWS or EW Gold (as Guy usually calls it).. I can not live with AROOF 😂😂.. this will keep being AR1 for me


----------



## Vik

Soundbed said:


> What would you have preferred / expected?


I would have preferred to hear the already muted/'mellowed' recordings without any modifications – and then hear what happens if the dynamic levels are lowered. Or vice versa. The beauty of flautandos, con sords and sul tastos is that they sound mellow/soft/'fragile' in a natural way, so I don't want to change that unless the situation calls for it. If I would sample a singer with a mellow voice, because I wanted the sound of a mellow voice, I wouldn't use those samples in the lower third of their dynamic range either – that wouldn't make sense to me at all. Now, since I don't know if the sul tastos and con words are sampled with multiple dynamic layers, I don't really know what happens if you play them back with with reduced dynamics... but if I want something soft/mellow/lyrical from 'normale' across, I usually user the lower two or three dynamic layers (if there are 4 or 5), that works quite well even with Soaring Strings. With Berlin Strings one can also disable one ore more dynamic layers and use the remaining layers across the whole dynamic range, if you understand what I mean.
With CSS it's different, both the vibrato and the dynamics are so intense, that in order to achieve I want, I generally avoid the upper third og the dynamic (and vibrato) range. But I can't understand why I would do that with con sords or sul tastos: I'd rather do the opposite, and avoid the lower range.
With some of Spitfires 'mellow' presets (and there are lots of them, flautandos, sul tastos, super sul tastos' there are usually only one or maybe two dynamic layers, and usually one wouldn't want to lower them with CCS – om the contrary, one would increase the overall volume of some of these artics, to hear the 'mellowness' properly, or even layer con sords with sul tastos or super sul tastos with flautandos.

Again, with CSS, often it's important to avoid the most intense vibrato and dyn range – with Afflatus, the oppose is true – one won't get full 'soar' the way one can achieve with Berlin Strings or SSS (or CSS) even if all the faders are set to max level. From Audibros demos, it seems that many of the presets sound best at close to full dynamics, while others may sound best at lower levels. But mellowized mellowness is something I never look for. 




Wunderhorn said:


> Because that dynamic range is the most applicable for these articulations... You don't write phrases with sordino or sul tasto in _fff_.


Maybe there's a misunderstanding here: sul tastos would never sound like normal fff even if the dyn range was set to maximum – I'm only talking about presets that are dedicated to con sords and sul tastos (I don't remember if MSS has flautandos).

With the sul pants, which often are used to achieve more intensity, it's also necessary to play in the top dynamic range, since it's the the near-harshness and 'more power' one often wants to achieve with sul ponts.


----------



## Bollen

Wunderhorn said:


> Because that dynamic range is the most applicable for these articulations... You don't write phrases with sordino or sul tasto in _fff_. In most cases that would be just not very realistic. The result would be that it sounds strained and someone would pipe up again and call it "synthy".


Clearly you've never heard of the Psycho Suite... All played con sordino...


----------



## Vik

Bollen said:


> Clearly you've never heard of the Psycho Suite... All played con sordino...


True, and Mahler also used con sordinos for some of his most passionate sections. To have loud enough con sordinos is an important tool – and not something one would want to avoid by lowering the already muted strings.


----------



## Evans

Second look from Curtis


----------



## curtisschweitzer

Evans said:


> Second look from Curtis



This might be a little hard to judge as I was mixing up some other string libraries throughout. But MSS is in almost every phrase, sometimes layered with BSS or CSS or BBCSO depending on the situation.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Okay, a more fair expressive test here, with fairly dense divisi writing. I had a bit more time for this, and I was writing with MSS in mind. A bit tired here, so if I've missed some glaring feature or if the mix is whack I apologize, and that's why.

Also featuring Genesis.



To my ears, this has worked much better, however I'm also not getting the kinds of note transitions I'd like. I'm sure there's quite a bit more to learn.


----------



## jneebz

dxmachina said:


> And then LASS3 after that.


...and then.......LADD GUI!! Pleeeeeeease.


----------



## Evans

curtisschweitzer said:


> This might be a little hard to judge as I was mixing up some other string libraries throughout. But MSS is in almost every phrase, sometimes layered with BSS or CSS or BBCSO depending on the situation.


Sounds like how it'd actually be used in practice. Thank you for uploading it.


----------



## dzilizzi

bvaughn0402 said:


> I did. I haven't even tried those yet.
> 
> I like it, but again, I approach it like a guitar. I don't want "one guitar". Because they all sound different. I have to remind myself that strings (and pianos) are like that.
> 
> That instead of the "holy grail" of one library that is all I use ... instead, combine them together to create complex sounds.
> 
> I think BSS are the closest to "one library" for me. Which is funny ... because when I play them by themselves, I don't usually like them. But they seem to mix good on my songs, more than CSS.
> 
> So I doubt I use MSS exclusively (except for FX and Ostinatos maybe).


Not sure about the "holy grail" analogy. If I remember my Indiana Jones correctly, the grail is pretty ugly. 

Maybe the "one ring to rule them all" instead?

MSS is sounding much better as everyone is figuring it out.


----------



## Trax

borisb2 said:


> I can live with HS, HWS or EW Gold (as Guy usually calls it).. I can not live with AROOF 😂😂.. this will keep being AR1 for me


A day will come when a new generation will know it as PUSS.


----------



## BasariStudios

ok, i am Dizzy from all this...so which one is best of these
LASS, CSS, CSSS, CSSSSS, MSN, NBC, FOX, ABC, CBS, ASS???


----------



## chemie262

Casiquire said:


> No, four letters is too much for the TRULY lazy like me, let's get it down to three


in the glossary I find this:
HS: Hollywood Strings (EastWest)


----------



## Soundbed

Vik said:


> since I don't know if the sul tastos and con words are sampled with multiple dynamic layers, I don't really know what happens if you play them back with with reduced dynamics...


Thanks for clarifying. For Sul Tasto, I only find one dynamic layer when I comb through the samples in Kontakt. I only hear one layer, at every mod wheel level. The manual also indicates they only expect it to be performed around _mp_.

Here's a snippet duplicated in both PDF manuals:

Sul Tasto | The note is played with the bow over the fingerboard giving a delicate, warm sound. This is typically only really played at one dynamic (the dynamic which elicits the best sound) being *mp*-ish. Performed as a Normal sustain. 

I played around a bit and it basically sounds louder or softer (like a volume gain / attenuation) but I'm guessing the Sul Tasto has only one dynamic layer of samples recorded in MSS. And therefore having the mod wheel wherever affects the way the phrase sounds, but it's probably only behaving like a volume knob.

~

The sordinos look to be recorded in two dynamic layers. They sound pretty similar to me at the first, and crossfading seems very smooth so far, which may have been why I didn't take care to demonstrate them previously. But I see file names with Sord_...Dyn_1 and Sord_...Dyn_2 so I'm guessing there are two layers. I'll play around a bit to see if I can demonstrate the differences clearly and audibly in short musical phrases. The biggest audible difference I hear right now is actually the Accented note starts vs Crescendo and Norm note starts. They're in Sordino but not in Sul Tasto.


Sordino Performed with a mute and played from *ppp *to *fff *with both vibrato and non-vibrato real-time control. Performed as Normal, Accented, and Crescendo sustains. 

~

Ah! This gives me an opportunity to explore the Dynamics Smoothing feature someone mentioned earlier. If you reduce the range to zero it's easier to hear the crossfade between the two layers but it's -- I'd say -- a relatively subtle shift in timbre. I'm listening to all violins at once. There may be places in the range or in different instrument sections where the different Sordino dynamic layers have a bigger contrast than I'm hearing initially.


----------



## Soundbed

by request (sort of) from @Vik, more violin legato noodling but this time at the louder dynamic level using the mute (con sordino)



... got a little angular this time, threw in some whole tone stuff and random note runs ... I'm already regretting the "human mashing keyboard" [fake] sound that isn't "writing strings parts" -- but ... it's late.

hope this is informative for someone.

say what you will, but I'd say the Expanded Legato patches take what you throw at them.

I'm more impressed with the violins sound than I was with the cellos (personally).

I'm more of a violas and cello type but these violins do sound more "contemporary" (less romantic) than other packages I own.

They really sing in the highest registers without getting overly screechy or "monochromatic" like some of my others.

The lower registers sound a bit more mellow (even with the mute off) and ... maybe neutral is a word for it?

[EDIT] The vibrato quality is more subtle than some of my other libraries. The room sort of "stays out of the way" rather than presenting a distinctive characteristic, maybe?

I might not use the cellos as much as these violins, and I might start getting into the sordino sound more than I've ever thought I'd want to, in the past. We will see.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Anyone else feels like the timber change going from the standard to the extended library are not as obvious as you'd expect? I'm use to hear sul pont played what seems to be closer to the bridge. And there's no confusing 8Dio Centuary sordinos with their regular strings ens... I'm not saying that as a negative and have no real opinion about that. I'm just a bit puzzled and wondering if it's just me?

edited: I'm thinking with the right EQ, one can probably put more emphasis or exaggerate that typical sul pont sound. ...hum i guess we could say the same about the sordinos. Anyone tried the eq presets with those?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

BasariStudios said:


> ok, i am Dizzy from all this...so which one is best of these
> LASS, CSS, CSSS, CSSSSS, MSN, NBC, FOX, ABC, CBS, ASS???


Fake News! 😄


----------



## yellow_lupine

Soundbed said:


> by request (sort of) from @Vik, more violin legato noodling but this time at the louder dynamic level using the mute (con sordino)
> 
> 
> 
> ... got a little angular this time, threw in some whole tone stuff and random note runs ... I'm already regretting the "human mashing keyboard" [fake] sound that isn't "writing strings parts" -- but ... it's late.
> 
> hope this is informative for someone.
> 
> say what you will, but I'd say the Expanded Legato patches take what you throw at them.
> 
> I'm more impressed with the violins sound than I was with the cellos (personally).
> 
> I'm more of a violas and cello type but these violins do sound more "contemporary" (less romantic) than other packages I own.
> 
> They really sing in the highest registers without getting overly screechy or "monochromatic" like some of my others.
> 
> The lower registers sound a bit more mellow (even with the mute off) and ... maybe neutral is a word for it?
> 
> [EDIT] The vibrato quality is more subtle than some of my other libraries. The room sort of "stays out of the way" rather than presenting a distinctive characteristic, maybe?
> 
> I might not use the cellos as much as these violins, and I might start getting into the sordino sound more than I've ever thought I'd want to, in the past. We will see.



Thanks Soundbed for your videos, they are very useful to me.
Unfortunately I must say I don't like the library sound, particularly the violins, where I can clearly hear the hated synth effect, more than the cellos. I think that's not a library for romantic music. Also I don't get so much difference in timbre between regular arco and sul tasto.


----------



## Laddy

The patch chart on audiobro site shows real legato available for trills and tremolo. How do these sound?


----------



## Vadium

borisb2 said:


> I did a test with an older CSS-track to see how well MSS performs


These examples sounds without vibrato - did you use vibrato here?


----------



## Soundbed

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Anyone else feels like the timber change going from the standard to the extended library are not as obvious as you'd expect? I'm use to hear sul pont played what seems to be closer to the bridge. And there's no confusing 8Dio Centuary sordinos with their regular strings ens... I'm not saying that as a negative and have no real opinion about that. I'm just a bit puzzled and wondering if it's just me?
> 
> edited: I'm thinking with the right EQ, one can probably put more emphasis or exaggerate that typical sul pont sound. ...hum i guess we could say the same about the sordinos. Anyone tried the eq presets with those?


Yes that a good point! I think they do sound more similar than I’d have expected. And yes I think it could be emphasized with EQ. This may have been intentional. I am beginning to think of MSS as more of a neutral starting point for contemporary composers. A springboard designed to be stretched in different directions.


yellow_lupine said:


> Thanks Soundbed for your videos, they are very useful to me.
> Unfortunately I must say I don't like the library sound, particularly the violins, where I can clearly hear the hated synth effect, more than the cellos. I think that's not a library for romantic music. Also I don't get so much difference in timbre between regular arco and sul tasto.


I’m so sorry if my playing in that video particularly made them sound like synths. I don’t know what people are calling synthy exactly but I’d chalk it up to the player more than the library. I’m sure I can make your favorite libraries sound synthy too, late on a Friday night.

And YES I agree this might not be a library designed for overly romantic styles. I think the word modern might be appropriate, but contemporary could be even more accurate.


----------



## novaburst

Soundbed said:


> by request (sort of) from @Vik, more violin legato noodling but this time at the louder dynamic level using the mute (con sordino)
> 
> 
> 
> ... got a little angular this time, threw in some whole tone stuff and random note runs ... I'm already regretting the "human mashing keyboard" [fake] sound that isn't "writing strings parts" -- but ... it's late.
> 
> hope this is informative for someone.
> 
> say what you will, but I'd say the Expanded Legato patches take what you throw at them.
> 
> I'm more impressed with the violins sound than I was with the cellos (personally).
> 
> I'm more of a violas and cello type but these violins do sound more "contemporary" (less romantic) than other packages I own.
> 
> They really sing in the highest registers without getting overly screechy or "monochromatic" like some of my others.
> 
> The lower registers sound a bit more mellow (even with the mute off) and ... maybe neutral is a word for it?
> 
> [EDIT] The vibrato quality is more subtle than some of my other libraries. The room sort of "stays out of the way" rather than presenting a distinctive characteristic, maybe?
> 
> I might not use the cellos as much as these violins, and I might start getting into the sordino sound more than I've ever thought I'd want to, in the past. We will see.



Hi @Soundbed try using Custom and adjust attack , release you can custom legato to any way you want it to feel but you must use custom


----------



## Casiquire

I notice an enormous difference with the sordinos. The sul pont is more subtle


----------



## Russell Anderson

Has anyone written anything that remains mostly in the very lowest dynamic range? I liked MSS’ sound down there in a couple of examples, would be good to hear more


----------



## novaburst

Casiquire said:


> I notice an enormous difference with the sordinos. The sul pont is more subtle


I think this library has one issue and it is you can get so many types of legatos it almost can be called a legato dictionary


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Can someone post more demos/videos of the legatos with more close and stage microphones involved (without reverb)?


----------



## Evans

novaburst said:


> I think this library has one issue and it is you can get so many types of legatos it almost can be called a legato dictionary


It does seem to have some flexibility in being able to add nuance to the transitions, but people should likely not expect the style you get from CSS, Vista, or NSS.

It's more like Berlin Strings, Afflatus Chapter 1, Dimension Strings, Synchron Strings Pro, or BBCSO. You know, many of the most popular and favored releases available today, but with true sordino, scales, octave runs, and the ostinato engine (I care not for ART nor auto-divisi, and personally wish they'd focus time, UI, and processing power elsewhere).

If I'm wrong on my first statement and the CSS-style transitions can be effectively mimicked, then someone please correct me.


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> Hi @Soundbed try using Custom and adjust attack , release you can custom legato to any way you want it to feel but you must use custom


Hi thanks for the comment. I'm not sure why you're letting me know this ... I don't really have questions about those controls at this time (personally). 


Casiquire said:


> I notice an enormous difference with the sordinos. The sul pont is more subtle


Fair point! I actually don't use sardines too often myself. I prefer kippers. (Saw the auto-correct and had to make the joke!)


----------



## dxmachina

> Fair point! I actually don't use sardines too often myself. I prefer kippers. (Saw the auto-correct and had to make the joke!)


You have no idea how many times I've been emailed about sardines!


----------



## novaburst

Soundbed said:


> Hi thanks for the comment. I'm not sure why you're letting me know this ... I don't really have questions about those controls at this time (personally).
> 
> Fair point! I actually don't use sardines too often myself. I prefer kippers. (Saw the auto-correct and had to make the joke!)


I saw on your vid custom was not on I think the automatic settings can tend to restrict anyone playing while custom settings is off


----------



## Noeticus

NOTE: Con Sardino = Sardines as an extra, particularly during lunch or dinner.


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> I saw on your vid custom was not on I think the automatic settings can tend to restrict anyone playing while custom settings is off





novaburst said:


> Hi @Soundbed try using Custom and adjust attack , release you can custom legato to any way you want it to feel but you must use custom


I might be misunderstanding you, sorry. The Custom Envelope does not affect legato, which is what that video was mostly attempting to demonstrate (via "noodling") ... here's a screenshot from the manual -- it says, "will not affect notes played in a legato fashion when the Legato button is ON."


----------



## Mr Greg G

As a cello player, when I hear these legato demos, I visualize a player violently hammering the fingerboard. This is not subtle. Unfortunately this is not a problem specific to MSS but most of the libraries have these types of recordings.

Some other users mentioned that it sounds a bit synthy. I tend to agree, and I can tell you why. I one word: reverb (like in most libraries).

I also noticed that many if not all strings libraries have badly programmed release samples. So when you play 2 notes successively with a leg or sus patch, you can hear 2 instruments playing at the same time. And that sounds awful.


----------



## jononotbono

I've just finished watched all the videos on MSS. Holy shit. Man, this is one hell of a String library. I need it in my life and I said to myself no more libraries for a long time. 😂


----------



## Noeticus

If there is a String Library at Location A, and you are at Location B, then physics dictates that you must transfer the Location A Strings to your B Location.

Here is the formula. St Loc A + $ = St B Loc -$

This is part of "Conservation of Articulations."


----------



## Soundbed

Mr Pringles said:


> As a cello player, when I hear these legato demos, I visualize a player violently hammering the fingerboard. This is not subtle. Unfortunately this is not a problem specific to MSS but most of the libraries have these types of recordings.
> 
> Some other users mentioned that it sounds a bit synthy. I tend to agree, and I can tell you why. I one word: reverb (like in most libraries).
> 
> I also noticed that many if not all strings library have badly programmed release samples. So when you play 2 notes successively with a leg or sus patch, you can hear 2 instruments playing at the same time. And that sounds awful.


Not trying to change your mind, but just to make sure you're hearing the softest dynamic layer with the least amount of EQ and Reverb, here's Cellos A and B playing a legato figure at the lowest dynamic level. No EQ, No Reverb, Close mics, and "basic" legato settings including Leg Speed Mode set to "Auto".










more audio examples of CSS, SCS, EWHO, Con Moto here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-4769404

Plus LASS here: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-4769465


----------



## dzilizzi

jononotbono said:


> I've just finished watched all the videos on MSS. Holy shit. Man, this is one hell of a String library. I need it in my life and I said to myself no more libraries for a long time. 😂


Didn't you say this right before paying full price for Berlin Strings?


----------



## novaburst

Evans said:


> It does seem to have some flexibility in being able to add nuance to the transitions, but people should likely not expect the style from CSS, Vista, or NSS.


Maybe not like vista and CSS but you might fluke or accidentally do a setting similar, by tweaking or messing with controls

I think it's more of the setting you want to play in a piece you want to do on a personal side and not trying to sound like other string library's


Soundbed said:


> I might be misunderstanding you, sorry. The Custom Envelope does not affect legato, which is what that video was mostly attempting to demonstrate (via "noodling") ... here's a screenshot from the manual -- it says, "will not affect notes played in a legato fashion when the Legato button is ON."


try it it want effect legato type yes true but it will effect legato feel


----------



## novaburst

Also remember place your strings where they need to be and experiment

Also look at the Room type and size and your mic volumes depth influence


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> try it it want effect legato type yes true but it will effect legato feel


I tried it. It affects how a legato phrase begins -- the first note played -- and how a legato phrase ends -- the last note played. It does not change how legato sounds or feels in the middle notes, during legato transitions.


----------



## Mr Greg G

Soundbed said:


> Not trying to change your mind, but just to make sure you're hearing the softest dynamic layer with the least amount of EQ and Reverb, here's Cellos A and B playing a legato figure at the lowest dynamic level. No EQ, No Reverb, Close mics, and "basic" legato settings including Leg Speed Mode set to "Auto".


Thank you for posting these. You can hear the wrong transitions in your example as if the players were so bad they can't play in sync and some are way too late to transition to the next note, especially in the mid-high register like at 00:12-13 and your last notes at 00:17. This seemed fine in the lowest register though.

Anyway, it's hard to create a string library that can sound "right". Personally, LASS is my go to library. Even though it's not perfect, it's the closest library I could find to this string sound I hear when playing live with string players.


----------



## novaburst

On some vids it appeared the beginning of the legato note was jumping in to soon and not being played where the user wanted it to be, turn off all your autos put custom on and use it after you set up your playing style then use transition volume and speed 

Also turn off all Eq


----------



## Batrawi

novaburst said:


> Also remember place your strings where they need to be and experiment
> 
> Also look at the Room type and size and your mic volumes depth influence


that's one of the things I don't understand in this library. It has been recorded in-stu, so wouldn't moving around the sections in a virtual stage cause a distortion in the stereo image?


----------



## Soundbed

Mr Pringles said:


> Thank you for posting these. You can hear the wrong transitions in your example as if the players were so bad they can't play in sync and some are way too late to transition to the next note, especially in the mid-high register like at 00:12-13 and your last notes at 00:17. This seemed fine in the lowest register though.
> 
> Anyway, it's hard to create a string library that can sound "right". Personally, LASS is my go to library. Even though it's not perfect, it's the closest library I could find to this string sound I hear when playing live with string players.


I love the LASS cellos too. They are my favorite (still today).


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Soundbed said:


> Not trying to change your mind, but just to make sure you're hearing the softest dynamic layer with the least amount of EQ and Reverb, here's Cellos A and B playing a legato figure at the lowest dynamic level. No EQ, No Reverb, Close mics, and "basic" legato settings including Leg Speed Mode set to "Auto".


It sounds unnatural. String players won't perform like that. I can only hear the sustain, but I can't hear the transition at all intervals between notes. There is no gluing. Listen to more live performances. It's probably not your fault, but a library that just isn't equipped to make a convincing legato.


----------



## jononotbono

dzilizzi said:


> Didn't you say this right before paying full price for Berlin Strings?


Actually, I got it for 25% off. And that was about a year a go. Which in sample library buying terms, is basically an eternity!


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I don't understand why people say it sounds synthy. I too think it likely has to do with the reverb and the mix mic. Not crazy about the mix mic at all. Anyway, i guess we hear things differently and have different refrence as to what a good string sound is and have all different tast.


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> On some vids it appeared the beginning of the legato note was jumping in to soon and not being played where the user wanted it to be, turn off all your autos put custom on and use it after you set up your playing style then use transition volume and speed
> 
> Also turn off all Eq


Thanks for your comments.

I sometimes record the audio separately to WAV and then (try to) sync them up during the DAWcast so people can see the settings used. This way the audio goes through the least number of conversions on the way to YouTube.

To be clear, none of the legato transitions are starting before I want them to start (I don't really understand how that would happen). I am simply playing -- exploring -- the library with fairly basic settings so that people can hear how it might sound if they owned it. I was specifically not trying to customize legato settings too much in the video you mentioned.

Even if I was to customize things more, I don't want Custom Envelope on (personally) most of the time (I did demonstrate it to extend the tail of a chord in a previous video, and it was automated). 

But I don't want to use Custom Envelope to change the starting notes of legato phrases, and here's why: I prefer using the pre-recorded Cresc, Norm and Accent controls for that (not volume envelopes for Attach Curve and Attack Length). The manual points out that "*these aren’t Frankenstein sample edits or synthetic envelopes*" and that's exactly why I don't want Custom Envelopes in most cases.

If you like Custom Envelopes, cool. They will be a useful tool, when required.

I don't want to mess with transition volume and speed too much (personally) just yet and here's why: I want to hear what the engine is doing. I write TV music and speed of workflow is important. If I adjust every transition speed and transition volume it will impact my ability to get things done. Others have commented on their preferences for those settings. And while I'm interested in hearing other perspectives I am hoping "set it and forget it" controls will get me 80% of the way. Of course I'll get into those controls on an as needed basis. But the video you were quoting was more about playing with the non-customized settings.

On EQ -- that video was about differences between Arco, sort, Sul Tasto etc. and it made more sense to leave the default settings where they were. Sorry if you wanted to hear them entirely unprocessed. I think this library was intended to be EQ'd. If I turn off EQ it sounds pretty "flat" relative to almost any other library I own. LASS also ships with EQ enabled on the default patches and when I demo LASS (in other videos) I don't turn off EQ. I do have some other MSS videos with EQ off and will do more with MSS EQ off, but only to demonstrate something about the "Raw" sound. Furthermore the Extended Legato library has different EQ settings than the main Arco et al library for the same instrument sections, and I assume that is intentional and that's part of the reason I left it on for that video.

Thanks for your suggestions! I don't want to discourage you but on the other hand it seems like you are making suggestions that I have thought about and decided not to do for the reasons above. I hope I don't sound "defensive" other than to explain my intentions and decision making process for sharing the videos. I am glad they are helpful and welcome additional input, requests and suggestions because I want the videos to be useful and helpful. That said I don't expect to please all the VI-Controllers all the time.

Cheers!


----------



## Raphioli

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I don't understand why people say it sounds synthy. I too think it likely has to do with the reverb and the mix mic. Not crazy about the mix mic at all. Anyway, i guess we hear things differently and have different refrence as to what a good string sound is and have all different tast.


I don't think the sound/timbre sounds synthy either.

But the legatos aren't good. I heard a clip on a page (can't remember the page, too many pages lol), it started with a long sustain note with a nice sound, but then as soon as a motif was played (meaning as soon as the transitions came in), it was an instant give away.(sounded synthy)

BTW, thanks @Soundbed for creating lots of audio and video examples.


----------



## novaburst

Batrawi said:


> that's one of the things I don't understand in this library. It has been recorded in-stu, so wouldn't moving around the sections in a virtual stage cause a distortion in the stereo image?


I think its more of where you want things to be place and where you want the sound coming from it does not distort the sound but rather give the user more flexibility over the library and the instrument sound or otherwise


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Batrawi said:


> that's one of the things I don't understand in this library. It has been recorded in-stu, so wouldn't moving around the sections in a virtual stage cause a distortion in the stereo image?





novaburst said:


> I think its more of where you want things to be place and where you want the sound coming from it does not distort the sound but rather give the user more flexibility over the library and the instrument sound or otherwise


There are definitely more videos on several stuff needed! 
But as it's all in their new orchestral engine, I watched the Genesis "Stage" video again to get a better understanding. Don't know if this exactly the same concept though. Genesis, by the way, has the most in-depth videos. There are some features discussed which are omnipresent in all their libraries.


----------



## Noc

Kinda off-topic to MSS, but – @dxmachina Will the LASS 3 conversion including creating all-in-one master keyswitch patches, or will the patches remain split, just with a new GUI? I’m guessing the former, but I thought I’d ask.

Additionally, will LASS 3 just bring the existing samples & articulations into the new engine, or will there also be tweaks made to the scripting, new articulations added (like how 2.5 added marcato patches), etc.?


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I don't understand why people say it sounds synthy. I too think it likely has to do with the reverb and the mix mic. Not crazy about the mix mic at all. Anyway, i guess we hear things differently and have different refrence as to what a good string sound is and have all different tast.



And I do not understand the surprise of those who can not sing why MSS sounds synthy. It is necessary to compare the real performances of the players and compare first of all with them. The problem with MSS is not the sound, but the lack of a working spinal cord-legato.

I'M MORE THAN SURE THAT IF WE LISTENED TO A PERFORMANCE OF REAL STRING MUSICIANS RIGHT NOW, RECORDED WITH THE SAME MICROPHONES AND IN THE SAME ROOM, OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE WOULD BE SATISFIED.


----------



## Zedcars

Hello,

Just finished a short excerpt from The Planets Suite, Venus the Bringer of Peace by Gustav Holst.

I used BBCSO for the woodwind and horns and all strings are MSS.

I mixed the solo viola with the Viola section, and the solo violin with the Violins 1 & 2 patch. I used divisi violins 1A, 1B and 2A for bar 79 (the crescendo into the forte tune).

All Kontakt effects disabled. Just Seventh Heaven Pro reverb with subtle compression on output.

Not happy with the solo cello, but then I don't think it is designed to be exposed like that. Ordinarily I would replace it with a better one.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ss37rvx4rs0hbe/MSS%20-%20Holst%20-%20The%20Planets%2C%20Venus%20Excerpt-01.wav?dl=0


----------



## Soundbed

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> It sounds unnatural. String players won't perform like that. I can only hear the sustain, but I can't hear the transition at all intervals between notes. There is no gluing. Listen to more live performances. It's probably not your fault, but a library that just isn't equipped to make a convincing legato.


I posted them mainly because I wasn't hearing "a player violently hammering the fingerboard" that @Mr Pringles mentioned. I agree that the transitions sound like audio mixes more than players changing notes on instruments.

For others interested in hearing (non-bowed) legato transitions from different libraries, here's both CSS and Spitfire Chamber (SCS) Performance Legato playing the same notes. I had to change the velocities for CSS so they'd all trigger the same "Medium" legato speed in Advanced mode. (Of course the first note of CSS will sound "late" because I did not move the start time early for the CSS legato engine.)

I reached for Con Moto too but quickly remembered that uses bowed transitions every time. Hell, I might as well include it since I recorded it. 

*sigh* I predict someone will ask me to do the same with Hollywood (EWHO) and I will not.

... just kidding! From the Diamond "Powerful System" folder here's the 'Celli Leg Slur Ni' patch (I think that's the best for this example, right?) too.

All examples with close mics.


----------



## novaburst

Soundbed said:


> I don't want Custom Envelope on (personally)


Its rather turning on Custom, and turning off auto if you dont then you will miss out on legatos full range of speed if the library is in auto mode yes you will get some nice things out of it but will start to go astray because not everything you do will be in harmony with the auto settings 

but i guess at the end of the day you use it how ever you want


----------



## BasariStudios

Why do i think that EW HS beats all other in the Legato Department?


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> Its rather turning on Custom, and turning off auto if you dont then you will miss out on legatos full range of speed if the library is in auto mode yes you will get some nice things out of it but will start to go astray because not everything you do will be in harmony with the auto settings


Custom Envelope does not change legato speed in any way, shape or form.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And I do not understand the surprise of those who can not sing why MSS sounds synthy. It is necessary to compare the real performances of the players and compare first of all with them. The problem with MSS is not the sound, but the lack of a working spinal cord-legato.
> 
> I'M MORE THAN SURE THAT IF WE LISTENED TO A PERFORMANCE OF REAL STRING MUSICIANS RIGHT NOW, RECORDED WITH THE SAME MICROPHONES AND IN THE SAME ROOM, OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE WOULD BE SATISFIED.


Oh I'm with you on that. Been talking about this problem since many pages ago. I think i might have been to 1st to bring it up. edited: Was talking about the sound.


----------



## novaburst

Soundbed said:


> Custom Envelope does not change legato speed in any way, shape or form.


Trying to help but obviously its getting a little confusing


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> Hi @Soundbed try using Custom and adjust attack , release you can custom legato to any way you want it to feel but you must use custom





novaburst said:


> Trying to help but obviously its getting a little confusing


Yes you might have been confused because the Custom Envelope controls appear directly above where the Legato Speed and its Auto button show up after the "Trans Spd" controls are expanded.

You posted a picture of the 3 Custom Envelopes enabled and suggested changing attack and release to affect legato (which they don't).

If you're talking about Leg-Speed and it's Auto mode that's a different conversation.


----------



## novaburst

Soundbed said:


> Yes you might have been confused because the Custom Envelope controls appear directly above where the Legato Speed and its Auto button show up after the "Trans Spd" controls are expanded.
> 
> You posted a picture of the 3 Custom Envelopes enabled and suggested changing attack and release to affect legato (which they don't).
> 
> If you're talking about Leg-Speed and it's Auto mode that's a different conversation.


A combination of both really 

Good luck


----------



## Soundbed

Mr Pringles said:


> Anyway, it's hard to create a string library that can sound "right". Personally, LASS is my go to library. Even though it's not perfect, it's the closest library I could find to this string sound I hear when playing live with string players.


For good measure, here's LASS playing the same MIDI.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> For good measure, here's LASS playing the same MIDI.


Here's hoping LASS 3.0 comes out this year.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Soundbed said:


> For good measure, here's LASS playing the same MIDI.



Have you tried applying the trick to MSS or LASS yet? "Pixelpoet trick" posted *here*


----------



## Evans

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Have you tried applying the trick to MSS or LASS yet? "Pixelpoet trick" posted *here*


I gave it a super quick go earlier with MSS. It technically works, but gets tricky when there are so many other legato-related controls. I didn't have the interest at the time to find the ideal dial-in for all parameters. 

Maybe next week, if someone else doesn't get to it first. It's not why I bought MSS.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Have you tried applying the trick to MSS or LASS yet? "Pixelpoet trick" posted *here*


Man, I should have sold my "trick" instead of simply posting it. 😂


----------



## Soundbed

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Have you tried applying the trick to MSS or LASS yet? "Pixelpoet trick" posted *here*


No, I don't know which of the 1184 Groups in the MSS Cellos to select in step 1, or how to find them. 

I see a new thread has been started for MSS Legato.


----------



## molemac

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Here's hoping LASS 3.0 comes out this year.


Seems to be a lot of love returning for Lass. Looking forward to finding out more about LASS 3 and when its released. Just listening to the old Lass Audiobro demos, do they have more variety and emotional detail than the MSs demos? Perhaps it would be worth Audiobro getting some of those demos redone with MSS to compare ? Or is the “holy grail “ to buy both and use MSS for ostinatos, runs etc and Lass for legato.


----------



## ag75

Mr Pringles said:


> Thank you for posting these. You can hear the wrong transitions in your example as if the players were so bad they can't play in sync and some are way too late to transition to the next note, especially in the mid-high register like at 00:12-13 and your last notes at 00:17. This seemed fine in the lowest register though.
> 
> Anyway, it's hard to create a string library that can sound "right". Personally, LASS is my go to library. Even though it's not perfect, it's the closest library I could find to this string sound I hear when playing live with string players.


Totally agree. When I hear a lass sample I hear a string player sitting in front of me. Love the sound of LASS


----------



## muziksculp

I have decided to pass on MSS, and its Legato Expansion, but still looking forward to LASS 3. Hopefully it will sound great, and be much easier, and quicker to setup, and use than LASS 2.5.

I'm also curious if LASS 3 will include LS (Legato Sordino) library as well.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

The early adopters of this library could've landed a rover on Mars it seems - incredible Perseverance.

I prefer that my $1000 libraries not require a PhD to operate though.


----------



## AEF

Can't seem to get the Logic Art sets to work. So this is just a static performance where I would like to have changed the rebow and attacks etc etc. This is just noodling on a customized V1 legato patch.


----------



## novaburst

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The early adopters of this library could've landed a rover on Mars it seems - incredible Perseverance.
> 
> I prefer that my $1000 libraries not require a PhD to operate though.


I think its not as it appears, to unlock the library you just need to turn off all auto settings and then set the library up the way you prefer and there are variations of how you can do that.


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The early adopters of this library could've landed a rover on Mars it seems - incredible Perseverance.
> 
> I prefer that my $1000 libraries not require a PhD to operate though.


You should see how much more setting up Dimension Strings and Hollywood Strings took me


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> You should see how much more setting up Dimension Strings and Hollywood Strings took me


I suppose we'll have to wait for MSS OPUS then.


----------



## BasariStudios

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I suppose we'll have to wait for MSS OPUS then.


This should turn into a good Meme...i can not wait for that release.


----------



## biomuse

Mr Pringles said:


> As a cello player, when I hear these legato demos, I visualize a player violently hammering the fingerboard. This is not subtle. Unfortunately this is not a problem specific to MSS but most of the libraries have these types of recordings.


I think this might be a problem with a one-knob solution - simply turning the Transition Volume down to taste. Take a look again at that segment of the Legato video on the Audiobro site to get a feel for it.


----------



## biomuse

AEF said:


> Can't seem to get the Logic Art sets to work. So this is just a static performance where I would like to have changed the rebow and attacks etc etc. This is just noodling on a customized V1 legato patch.


Customized how, if I may ask?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

HA! I just knew it; MSS is certainly not going to replace CSS as my main workhorse strings library, _however_, it is most certainly going to augment it. Here are some demos of MSS, CSS/S, and then layered. One of CSS/S' biggest points of controversy - other than varying delay offsets - is its dark tone. I love the tone of CSS, but I'll also fully admit that it isn't appropriate for every piece. EQ can help, but it's not the same as a brighter source material. MSS is perfect for brightening, thickening, and turning CSS into a symphonic string section.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmj21ifuo9ajgo0/AAA5xXGTojL_aFkmpoTtu9iaa?dl=0
Note: CSS/S examples are the mix mic, whereas CSS/S + MSS examples are only close and main. MSS tracks are NOT default patches, and for the combined examples they are -5.6db.

Finally, in honor of @ALittleNightMusic, here's a fully mixed and mastered (by me, so no judgement) version, similar to my previous version, again featuring Genesis.


----------



## molemac

Duncan Krummel said:


> HA! I just knew it; MSS is certainly not going to replace CSS as my main workhorse strings library, _however_, it is most certainly going to augment it. Here are some demos of MSS, CSS/S, and then layered. One of CSS/S' biggest points of controversy - other than varying delay offsets - is its dark tone. I love the tone of CSS, but I'll also fully admit that it isn't appropriate for every piece. EQ can help, but it's not the same as a brighter source material. MSS is perfect for brightening, thickening, and turning CSS into a symphonic string section.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmj21ifuo9ajgo0/AAA5xXGTojL_aFkmpoTtu9iaa?dl=0
> Note: CSS/S examples are the mix mic, whereas CSS/S + MSS examples are only close and main. MSS tracks are NOT default patches, and for the combined examples they are -5.6db.
> 
> Finally, in honor of @ALittleNightMusic, here's a fully mixed and mastered (by me, so no judgement) version, similar to my previous version, again featuring Genesis.



If symphonic section is what you’re after what about BSS? Would save the hassle of combining two libraries.


----------



## biomuse

Duncan Krummel said:


> HA! I just knew it; MSS is certainly not going to replace CSS as my main workhorse strings library, _however_, it is most certainly going to augment it. Here are some demos of MSS, CSS/S, and then layered. One of CSS/S' biggest points of controversy - other than varying delay offsets - is its dark tone. I love the tone of CSS, but I'll also fully admit that it isn't appropriate for every piece. EQ can help, but it's not the same as a brighter source material. MSS is perfect for brightening, thickening, and turning CSS into a symphonic string section.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmj21ifuo9ajgo0/AAA5xXGTojL_aFkmpoTtu9iaa?dl=0
> Note: CSS/S examples are the mix mic, whereas CSS/S + MSS examples are only close and main. MSS tracks are NOT default patches, and for the combined examples they are -5.6db.
> 
> Finally, in honor of @ALittleNightMusic, here's a fully mixed and mastered (by me, so no judgement) version, similar to my previous version, again featuring Genesis.



Wonder if we can get an MSS + CSS bundle.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Duncan Krummel said:


> HA! I just knew it; MSS is certainly not going to replace CSS as my main workhorse strings library, _however_, it is most certainly going to augment it. Here are some demos of MSS, CSS/S, and then layered. One of CSS/S' biggest points of controversy - other than varying delay offsets - is its dark tone. I love the tone of CSS, but I'll also fully admit that it isn't appropriate for every piece. EQ can help, but it's not the same as a brighter source material. MSS is perfect for brightening, thickening, and turning CSS into a symphonic string section.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmj21ifuo9ajgo0/AAA5xXGTojL_aFkmpoTtu9iaa?dl=0
> Note: CSS/S examples are the mix mic, whereas CSS/S + MSS examples are only close and main. MSS tracks are NOT default patches, and for the combined examples they are -5.6db.
> 
> Finally, in honor of @ALittleNightMusic, here's a fully mixed and mastered (by me, so no judgement) version, similar to my previous version, again featuring Genesis.



Yea it works. I don't suppose you had time to play with MSS shorts? If so, what's your opinion compare to CSS?


----------



## Sean J

feck said:


> Because the iPad is well regarded for its superior DAC.


Not what I meant. StaffPad versions get better performances on an iPad than my Kontakt versions. Sound quality wasn't my point as much as mock-up quality. Thus...

I'd buy a StaffPad version of this.


----------



## Sean J

prodigalson said:


> I'm not going to buy a new car ever again unless it's a plane. It just gets me there faster. No problem with cars, I'd just like them to be aeroplanes.


Not exactly. Replace airplane with "flying car". But we may as well be debating on whether the car would eventually render the horse useless as a primary means of transportation. StaffPad is the future for me... and for an orchestral library, it makes sense to put one's libraries in StaffPad...especially as the app owner is the one doing the leg work to get the sounds to work well. It's just a matter of whether people are willing to discount a library that doesn't come with extra mics and only works on one platform. There's no reason AudioBro shouldn't get on board IMHO.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Tried posting these comments before, but it didn't take for some reason.


molemac said:


> If symphonic section is what you’re after what about BSS? Would save the hassle of combining two libraries.


I think one _could_ just opt for BSS instead, but they'd be sacrificing all of the additional features of MSS, as well as the flexibility of timbre once you dig into changing mic perspectives, and the balance of MSS against CSS. Personally, I don't mind the process of combining libraries if it achieves what I need it to, and BSS' legato is not my personal cup of tea.



Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Yea it works. I don't suppose you had time to play with MSS shorts? If so, what's your opinion compare to CSS?


Not yet! I'll try to tackle that next, but I'm guessing it'll add a lot of bite to CSS. MSS is _deep_.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I would be interested to hear how MSS mic positions could allow it to sound like BSS. I just rewatched through BSS walkthrough and the MSS legato videos and they do not sounds that close. BSS’s default tin does sound better to me personally.



Sean J said:


> There's no reason AudioBro shouldn't get on board IMHO.


There’s still work for AudioBro. And every time they want to update the library, there’s additional work to support a platform that relatively has very few customers for them. You may love it but you are in a minority in terms of how people make music and utilize sample libraries. In fact, you’re likely in a _dwindling_ monitory given how many people make music these days without any ability to read notation, let alone write it. I imagine supporting Staffpad will take some time, if ever, given they are just two guys doing all this.


----------



## Wunderhorn

It is very interesting to watch this thread. More than ever it becomes apparent that with the increasing sophistication of string libraries it is also increasingly impossible to cover _all_ basic needs.
As mentioned here it looks like libraries are drifting towards being members of one of two groups.
One group led by emotion baked into the recordings first and the other to be more neutral but precise and flexible.

MSS is clearly in the latter camp. When I was checking out what the fuss was about Performance Sample's Voyage I got struck by their sales blurb leading not with mentioning features but _emotion_. The first audio demo I clicked on immediately got my attention like _*none*_ of the MSS demos did by far! (read that sentence again.)

Now, for the trailer music composer it might just stop there. My needs are more varied and I value immediate attention just as much as restraint and something that I can work and control to fit my composition instead of fitting my composition to the library in too much of a degree.

My conclusion to this is that - because libraries are getting more sophisticated, more realistic, more detailed, if you will, that ideally you need to have something from both camps.

In my case I have been using LASS as my workhorse, I have held off buying any other bread-and-butter string libraries since except specialty libraries (though a good number of them) ever since I knew that Audiobro was working on a follow-up.

Now, I do feel very good picking up MSS to be my LASS replacement. For certain moments however, I feel that perhaps Voyage could potentially (if it turnes out as advertised) be the perfect complimentary color in the palette. One reason I have not pulled the trigger is that I am unsure if I want the MSS expansion. One gripe I have about the expansion is that it does not come with any shorts for sordino, sul pont and sul tasto, not even martele. I have LASS sordino legatos and I have great sounding flautandos thanks to Spitfire (Tundra etc). It is a tough call but in the end a question worth a mere $150. It's still a question especially before the introductory pricing runs out.


----------



## molemac

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I would be interested to hear how MSS mic positions could allow it to sound like BSS. I just rewatched through BSS walkthrough and the MSS legato videos and they do not sounds that close. BSS’s default tin does sound better to me personally.
> 
> 
> There’s still work for AudioBro. And every time they want to update the library, there’s additional work to support a platform that relatively has very few customers for them. You may love it but you are in a minority in terms of how people make music and utilize sample libraries. In fact, you’re likely in a _dwindling_ monitory given how many people make music these days without any ability to read notation, let alone write it. So no, Staffpad is not the future in the general sense of music composition. And that’s likely enough reason for AudioBro not to rush to support it.


Yes I revisited their demos today and was a little more impressed with the overall timbre if Big strings is what your’e after. Not personally what I’m after though. More string detail rather than mushing two libraries together from different spaces. Solo sections perhaps I think Audio bro could post a few more demos. Re Staffpad , I love it too, a lot less faffing around as you cant do anything other than write music and do a bit of an expression ride But for orchestral music mockups sounds damn fine. Be great when going between staffpad and Daw is seamless . Ie Staffpad might have audio one day and exporting stems to logic will be a bit better.


----------



## Zedcars

Casiquire said:


> You should see how much more setting up Dimension Strings and Hollywood Strings took me


Do you have any tips about setting either library up? I’m in the process of creating my template which I’ve been meaning to do for years but kept putting it off.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Duncan Krummel said:


> HA! I just knew it; MSS is certainly not going to replace CSS as my main workhorse strings library, _however_, it is most certainly going to augment it. Here are some demos of MSS, CSS/S, and then layered. One of CSS/S' biggest points of controversy - other than varying delay offsets - is its dark tone. I love the tone of CSS, but I'll also fully admit that it isn't appropriate for every piece. EQ can help, but it's not the same as a brighter source material. MSS is perfect for brightening, thickening, and turning CSS into a symphonic string section.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmj21ifuo9ajgo0/AAA5xXGTojL_aFkmpoTtu9iaa?dl=0
> Note: CSS/S examples are the mix mic, whereas CSS/S + MSS examples are only close and main. MSS tracks are NOT default patches, and for the combined examples they are -5.6db.


Wonderful piece again! I like and prefer MSS here, the legato also sounds good. The timbre is more "modern", clear and open. I think this is also dependent on the microphone combination. I don't know how the mix in CSS is set up, or if we can manage to get a similar result with MSS.

Would there be a difference if you combined MSS with the first chair, or used only one divisi section? I presume you used both divisis?

What did you change in the patches? And may I ask what reverb that is?


----------



## FKVStudio

It seems to me that some opinions regarding MSS are being extremely negative. I'm still in the process of evaluating your purchase or not, but the bookstore doesn't sound bad at all to me. It gives me the feeling that it is a versatile library and that, with work, you can get the sound you need at all times.

That said, I'm still seeing demos and I may rush to the end of the introductory price (March 16 according to @dxmachina) but I have a question. What is the "Brightness" control of the main interface for?


----------



## Sovereign

Duncan Krummel said:


> HA! I just knew it; MSS is certainly not going to replace CSS as my main workhorse strings library, _however_, it is most certainly going to augment it. Here are some demos of MSS, CSS/S, and then layered. One of CSS/S' biggest points of controversy - other than varying delay offsets - is its dark tone. I love the tone of CSS, but I'll also fully admit that it isn't appropriate for every piece. EQ can help, but it's not the same as a brighter source material. MSS is perfect for brightening, thickening, and turning CSS into a symphonic string section.


Which basically defeats the purpose of MSS being by itself a "main workhorse" library. I doubt anyone looking at this product is thinking of it as a layering tool only, poor selling point IMO. 
And the nice new demo you made did nothing to convince me in the slightest MSS was a real string ensemble playing, even for a moment. Every interval I hear screams 'fake strings' to me. And the MSS timbre, it just sounds a lot like Synchron strings to me (which I think has better legato compared to what I am hearing here from MSS). I can see why Synchron enthusiasts would perhaps like it. I'm also not sure why these rather sterile strings would necessarily be considered a "modern scoring" sound, as some insist.


----------



## Mr Greg G

This sounds like a very good library and all its features should have made it the ultimate strings library.

Unfortunately it seems (from all the media posted online) to have all the flaws other strings libraries have: 
- A drooling reverb that makes the sound synthy (fortunately you can disable it)
- Release samples are not stopped if a new note is pressed when they're triggered. It's even more obvious with Solo legato instruments libraries when you can often hear 2 solo instruments playing at the same time. But this is the same thing with ensembles, it's like 2 distinct ensembles with one taking over the other. 
- In higher dynamics leg there's a confusion between hammering the fingerboard and bow pressure


----------



## dxmachina

I mentioned this in the other thread, but expect an update prior to end of intro-period.


----------



## FKVStudio

dxmachina said:


> I mentioned this in the other thread, but expect an update prior to end of intro-period.


It is appreciated that you are aware of customers, existing and potential. I need more debate with my pillow but it is looking like a spectacular library and that, surely, with future updates, the details that can be improved will be refined. You will most likely buy it before the end of the introductory period.

As the Joker would say, I think I just need a little "push" xD


----------



## BasariStudios

biomuse said:


> Wonder if we can get an MSS + CSS bundle.


I am working on it.


----------



## BasariStudios

dxmachina said:


> I mentioned this in the other thread, but expect an update prior to end of intro-period.


Thank you Sir, this is really appreciated. At that point i would
buy it just for the fact that you are being Fair, update before 
special price ends and give people another shot. That is how
businesses should be run. You deserve every Penny.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Wonderful piece again! I like and prefer MSS here, the legato also sounds good. The timbre is more "modern", clear and open. I think this is also dependent on the microphone combination. I don't know how the mix in CSS is set up, or if we can manage to get a similar result with MSS.
> 
> Would there be a difference if you combined MSS with the first chair, or used only one divisi section? I presume you used both divisis?
> 
> What did you change in the patches? And may I ask what reverb that is?


Thank you! Here are the default changes I'm making to MSS at the moment (so my default):

• All internal FX processing off.
• Stage and Close mic active, Mix mic inactive (each mic is just set to 0.0db).
• For previous examples, I've turned Vibrato Control on and left it at max (this is not a _molto_ vib library)
• Auto Divisi is turned off.
• Transition speed is turned all the way down.

And that's it for this demo! In the previous demo I had mucked with a few other settings, but these were small things such as turning the brightness knob on and to ~95% or opting to automate the vibrato.

Reverb is Spaces II Reynolds Hall. I used the M-S instrument specific patches as an insert on each stack.

As for the first question, I've added files with MSS + CSSS only, and then a version with a CSSS Chamber Ensemble setup I frequently use (the classic transposition trick). As for the divisi question, both divisis are being used, but that's because this demo is 8 part harmony at one point. I used split tracks for these and really wanted to test how well it kept a balanced sound as the divisis were taken advantage of.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmj21ifuo9ajgo0/AAA5xXGTojL_aFkmpoTtu9iaa?dl=0


----------



## samplin

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thank you! Here are the default changes I'm making to MSS at the moment (so my default):
> 
> • All internal FX processing off.
> • Stage and Close mic active, Mix mic inactive (each mic is just set to 0.0db).
> • For previous examples, I've turned Vibrato Control on and left it at max (this is not a _molto_ vib library)
> • Auto Divisi is turned off.
> • Transition speed is turned all the way down.
> 
> And that's it for this demo! In the previous demo I had mucked with a few other settings, but these were small things such as turning the brightness knob on and to ~95% or opting to automate the vibrato.
> 
> Reverb is Spaces II Reynolds Hall. I used the M-S instrument specific patches as an insert on each stack.
> 
> As for the first question, I've added files with MSS + CSSS only, and then a version with a CSSS Chamber Ensemble setup I frequently use (the classic transposition trick). As for the divisi question, both divisis are being used, but that's because this demo is 8 part harmony at one point. I used split tracks for these and really wanted to test how well it kept a balanced sound as the divisis were taken advantage of.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmj21ifuo9ajgo0/AAA5xXGTojL_aFkmpoTtu9iaa?dl=0


This works well!


----------



## novaburst

Sovereign said:


> I can see why Synchron enthusiasts would perhaps like it. I'm also not sure why these rather sterile strings would necessarily be considered a "modern scoring" sound, as some insist.


So you dont think people would have jumped because of Audiobros line of development and i think its the reason why we go for other development too because of good history and so you just naturally think that their next product will be better, so yer slam dick tom and harry but i think you can try to be more constructive like some of the others,


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Sovereign said:


> Which basically defeats the purpose of MSS being by itself a "main workhorse" library. I doubt anyone looking at this product is thinking of it as a layering tool only, poor selling point IMO.
> And the nice new demo you made did nothing to convince me in the slightest MSS was a real string ensemble playing, even for a moment. Every interval I hear screams 'fake strings' to me. And the MSS timbre, it just sounds a lot like Synchron strings to me (which I think has better legato compared to what I am hearing here from MSS). I can see why Synchron enthusiasts would perhaps like it. I'm also not sure why these rather sterile strings would necessarily be considered a "modern scoring" sound, as some insist.


Yes, the legatos weren't super great, but for me, MSS sounded definitely like real strings in the demo. 

And yes, it's similar to Synchron, but that's not bad. Never like the timbre of CSS; but there's something about the samples that makes them extremely "real", no question, this airyness (in lack of a better term). That's also dependent on the room. CSS sound more like a hall to me, MSS like a studio.

Some prefer the darker, vintage vibe of CSS, others prefer the clearer, more brighter sound (that's what I called "modern" opposed to "vintage").


----------



## Laddy

Has anyone tried to mimic a hall sound with high quality IRs?


----------



## richhickey

Laddy said:


> Has anyone tried to mimic a hall sound with high quality IRs?



I posted some demos with different reverbs here:






Audiobro MSS experience reports


Let me take another weird shot at this: For over a decade i am a secret Lover of CSS, even CSS the Original. I never bought them or own them...should i just buy THEM at this point?




vi-control.net


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Sovereign said:


> And the MSS timbre, it just sounds a lot like Synchron strings to me (which I think has better legato compared to what I am hearing here from MSS). I can see why Synchron enthusiasts would perhaps like it.


I personally prefer Synchron Strings Pro - tonally and legato-wise. Could be that MSS just needs better demos.

SSP

MSS


----------



## BasariStudios

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I personally prefer Synchron Strings Pro - tonally and legato-wise. Could be that MSS just needs better demos.


SS PRO are my King Strings!


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> Thank you Sir, this is really appreciated. At that point i would
> buy it just for the fact that you are being Fair, update before
> special price ends and give people another shot. That is how
> businesses should be run. You deserve every Penny.


Keeps me in the loop too, if we can hear an improvement in that department and positive feedback here before the intro price , I’m in.


----------



## novaburst

Bashing some notes together, 1st V not synhy to me all naked all process off. all auto off just going up and down the keyboard random notes riding mod wheel


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

novaburst said:


> Bashing some notes together, 1st V not synhy to me all naked all process off. all auto off just going up and down the keyboard random notes riding mod wheel



Won't comment on the playing! Joking aside. I like it, not synthy at all, you can hear the transitions. And for me it sounds there is molto vibrato (at around 1:00).

Is this the mix mic?


----------



## novaburst

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Won't comment on the playing! Joking aside. I like it, not synthy at all, you can hear the transitions. And for me it sounds there is molto vibrato (at around 1:00).
> 
> Is this the mix mic?


Close mic and stage mix mic turned off i did move the A and B to the left


----------



## kaipiranha

I wonder how many people have actually listened to Duncan's newest examples before continuing with posting negative comments. _This_, ladies and gentlemen, is pure heaven to my ears:

CSS:S + MSS w: Verb.wav (found in Duncan's Dropbox folder)

Thank you for your excellent work! 

And why not combine CSS with MSS in order to achieve a wonderful sound? Looks like most participants own CSS already anyway.

Additional remark, because this also came up: As much as I'm a fan of OT: BSS sounds very, very different.


----------



## BasariStudios

Wake up People!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Yea it works. I don't suppose you had time to play with MSS shorts? If so, what's your opinion compare to CSS?


Just wanted to get back to this, because I _did_ get to play with the shorts today. Put another little demo together (and just _had_ to keep including CSS at this point, for consistency and also just because I am personally really loving layering them):









MSS Demo #3 Shorts


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Duncan Krummel said:


> Just wanted to get back to this, because I _did_ get to play with the shorts today. Put another little demo together (and just _had_ to keep including CSS at this point, for consistency and also just because I am personally really loving layering them):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demo #3 Shorts
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


Comparing both dry versions i like MSS better here. Could be that the MSS room is much more audible than CSS and possibly better? CSS shorts never really wowed me to begin with. But they're good and I'm sure they get the job done mind you and i bet they benefit from adding CSSS a lot.

Thanks for your input here again, and to hear it in a musical context is even better.


----------



## molemac

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Comparing both dry versions i like MSS better here. Could be that the MSS room is much more audible than CSS and possibly better? CSS shorts never really wowed me to begin with. But they're good and I'm sure they get the job done mind you and i bet they benefit from adding CSSS a lot.
> 
> Thanks for your input here again, and to hear it in a musical context is even better.


This is a great demo , I wish audio bro would put more like this up on their site. Obviously shorts are much easier to sound realistic with in samples and all these sound vgood , possibly MSS has an even more polished (modern scoring😊) sound. In the real world of Tv recording sessions shorts and pizz are often left as samples anyway as they sound convincing. The hard part is the sustains and legatos and that’s why we still record live strings because it sounds more expensive,expressive etc..


----------



## molemac

molemac said:


> This is a great demo , I wish audio bro would put more like this up on their site. Obviously shorts are much easier to sound realistic with in samples and all these sound vgood , possibly MSS has an even more polished (modern scoring😊) sound. In the real world of Tv recording sessions shorts and pizz are often left as samples anyway as they sound convincing. The hard part is the sustains and legatos and that’s why we still record live strings because it sounds more expensive,expressive etc..


Not as expensive as this though. This would be a good way to introduce a new string library and God knows we need one, there just aren’t enough to chose from.


----------



## soulofsound

molemac said:


> Not as expensive as this though. This would be a good way to introduce a new string library and God knows we need one, there just aren’t enough to chose from.



The myth of progress. 300 years later: "sorry we don't know how to make a violin to sound this good."


----------



## Toecutter

Sovereign said:


> And the nice new demo you made did nothing to convince me in the slightest MSS was a real string ensemble playing, even for a moment. Every interval I hear screams 'fake strings' to me.


It's bad isnt it? I'm very thankful for the user input so far but I thought that one week in we would be hearing some great user demos and my first impression would be proven wrong. MSS on paper is the "ideal" strings library like MSB was supposed to be the new brass standard yet after two years all I heard was ONE good user demo I really wanted to like MSS and gave it an honest chance but it's turning to be worse than I thought at first. At least my money is safe for the moment XD


----------



## Raphioli

They've announced that they're working on an update, so I'm personally going to wait for that update.
I'm assuming they'll release videos with the update applied, so I'll check those and possible user demos uploaded here with the update.
Then make my final decisions and move on.

Still wish there was a demo like the one Performance Samples provided for Vista.
8dio also provides a "Try pack".

Edit:
Even if the update doesn't turn out as what I expect, I still will be checking back during future sales.
Since I know Audiobro takes care of their sample libraries/userbase very well (more updates/enhancements), by looking at their communication here.


----------



## FKVStudio

Can someone please explain to me what this control does here? Maybe I have missed an explanation but I just don't see it.

Thank you.


----------



## karender

FKVStudio said:


> Can someone please explain to me what this control does here? Maybe I have missed an explanation but I just don't see it.
> 
> Thank you.


As far as I know. It's just a high shelf eq.


----------



## Mr Greg G

karender said:


> As far as I know. It's just a high shelf eq.


That's disappointing, I thought this was to get brighter inspiration.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Amidst the not entirely positive reaction to MSS here, I just wanted to shout out to @dxmachina (Andrew & Sebastian) to say what amazing developers I think they are.

Whilst every aspect of MSS is not quite where we wanted it to be at this stage, I have no doubt that their humbleness and openness to suggestions will get us there in the end. I own the library and whilst the legato isn’t the best (and hey, if it isn‘t your cup of tea, just use that other one, for now, we all own it !) there are so many other great elements to enjoy whilst that gets fixed...

Great Shorts, inspirational Ostinatos, the scales and runs are the best that I have found and just last night I started to explore the intuition patches. They sound great and are incredibly playable, so I’m sure with this being a demo of their programming skills, they will get there, hopefully in the not too distant future with the update they have mentioned.

Anyway, thanks guys, keep going, we are all in this journey together !

Oh and P.S. your customer service and speedy response to emails is simply THE BEST !


----------



## Casiquire

I'm actually having some really good results from the old LASS trick of speeding up portamentos instead of trying to slow down legatos. If i have a moment i might throw together an example later tonight, but until then, I'm throwing it out there for other owners to try their hand as well. To my ears, the sustains after a portamento also have a bit more movement and swell to them.

For anyone who's trying, here's a good starting point: expand the port range that way it's easier to play it consistently, increase the transition knob nearly all the way, AND increase the port transition knob almost all the way as well. Lastly take the transition volume down to about -3 to -5db until you hear something you like. The wrong transition volume might give you a weird bump about a second after the transition, probably as a result of the time stretching


----------



## dxmachina

@GingerMaestro Appreciate the warm comments!

I'll be very curious to see your thoughts after the coming update.


----------



## LHall

Mr Pringles said:


> That's disappointing, I thought this was to get brighter inspiration.


I could use that control on my brain!


----------



## Jish

GingerMaestro said:


> I own the library and whilst the legato isn’t the best (and hey, if it isn‘t your cup of tea, just use that other one, for now, we all own it !) there are so many other great elements to enjoy whilst that gets fixed...


Agreed with everything except this part- sorry, but it just comes off a little as rationalizing to me. The library has strengths and weaknesses, as do all other string lib's out there to varying degree- and if you are implying LASS by the other one 'we all own', I would actually wager to guess a fair amount of people on sample V.I. actually don't own it, for various reasons (or CSS/HWS ect).

However, hoping on a 'fix' is never the way to go about this specific part- to avoid an otherwise (potentially) costly purchase, though not perfect, listening to _user_ demos/walkthroughs is still about as good as it get's, sadly. Some actually really seem to like the legato's for what they do- I would only caution more against wish fulfillment in the form of possible future 'fixes', and more on what currently exists out there, both good and bad.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Jish said:


> Agreed with everything except this part- sorry, but it just comes off a little as rationalizing to me. The library has strengths and weaknesses, as do all other string lib's out there to varying degree- and if you are implying LASS by the other one 'we all own', I would actually wager to guess a fair amount of people on sample V.I. actually don't own it, for various reasons (or CSS/HWS ect).
> 
> However, hoping on a 'fix' is never the way to go about this specific part- to avoid an otherwise (potentially) costly purchase, though not perfect, listening to _user_ demos/walkthroughs is still about as good as it get's, sadly. Some actually really seem to like the legato's for what they do- I would only caution more against wish fulfillment in the form of possible future 'fixes', and more on what currently exists out there, both good and bad.


I wasn’t referring to LASS..its the other, other one with the great legatos we all love...


----------



## biomuse

Jish said:


> Agreed with everything except this part- sorry, but it just comes off a little as rationalizing to me. The library has strengths and weaknesses, as do all other string lib's out there to varying degree- and if you are implying LASS by the other one 'we all own', I would actually wager to guess a fair amount of people on sample V.I. actually don't own it, for various reasons (or CSS/HWS ect).
> 
> However, hoping on a 'fix' is never the way to go about this specific part- to avoid an otherwise (potentially) costly purchase, though not perfect, listening to _user_ demos/walkthroughs is still about as good as it get's, sadly. Some actually really seem to like the legato's for what they do- I would only caution more against wish fulfillment in the form of possible future 'fixes', and more on what currently exists out there, both good and bad.


Maybe. Or maybe not. Audiobro intends an update on this issue before the intro period ends. That means it’s a priority to them.


----------



## Evans

GingerMaestro said:


> I wasn’t referring to LASS..its the other, other one with the great legatos we all love...


Audio Imperia Areia, duh.


----------



## WinterEmerald

Sorry that I've taken ages to make a dry demo, but it seems loads of demos are available now so I guess loads for people to hear, so best to stick with those.
Personally, I'm right now struggling to get a nice legato sound and it's a bit of a disappointing experience. However, the solace to take is Audiobro, when responding to some criticism about the legato, have said:

"Without going into too much detail, stay tuned. We're on it.




V1.1 will have an additional legato and Espressivo mode addressing what we believe people are requesting.

In test mode now. You will be happy."


----------



## novaburst

Casiquire said:


> I'm actually having some really good results from the old LASS trick of speeding up portamentos instead of trying to slow down legatos. If i have a moment i might throw together an example later tonight, but until then, I'm throwing it out there for other owners to try their hand as well. To my ears, the sustains after a portamento also have a bit more movement and swell to them.
> 
> For anyone who's trying, here's a good starting point: expand the port range that way it's easier to play it consistently, increase the transition knob nearly all the way, AND increase the port transition knob almost all the way as well. Lastly take the transition volume down to about -3 to -5db until you hear something you like. The wrong transition volume might give you a weird bump about a second after the transition, probably as a result of the time stretching


Sorry @Casiquire i lost the demo you posted but it really sounded good, do you think you can post again


----------



## biomuse

Duncan Krummel said:


> Just wanted to get back to this, because I _did_ get to play with the shorts today. Put another little demo together (and just _had_ to keep including CSS at this point, for consistency and also just because I am personally really loving layering them):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS Demo #3 Shorts
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


Thrilling writing as usual. There's a "synthiness" - audible across both libraries - at around :32, which i wonder whether could be improved by decrescendo to a softer dynamic during the climb? 
This issue is related to tone only, obviously.


----------



## Wunderhorn

dxmachina said:


> @GingerMaestro Appreciate the warm comments!
> 
> I'll be very curious to see your thoughts after the coming update.


Does the update affect only the (legato) articulations in the main library or also the ones in the expansion pack?


----------



## Casiquire

novaburst said:


> Sorry @Casiquire i lost the demo you posted but it really sounded good, do you think you can post again


Thanks! This was not made with sped up ports


----------



## turnerofwheels

Casiquire said:


> I'm actually having some really good results from the old LASS trick of speeding up portamentos instead of trying to slow down legatos. If i have a moment i might throw together an example later tonight, but until then, I'm throwing it out there for other owners to try their hand as well. To my ears, the sustains after a portamento also have a bit more movement and swell to them.


Huh. That's exactly what I've found works better on my end also. I don't have LASS so I didn't realize this was a thing there too.


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> Thanks! This was not made with sped up ports



nice tweak @Casiquire. Works convincingly in some parts but in other moments not so great. That Sul Tasto (correct?) though affirms the library has a wonderful tone/space baked in those sustains (neglecting the legato parts for a moment)


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> nice tweak @Casiquire. Works convincingly in some parts but in other moments not so great. That Sul Tasto (correct?) though affirms the library has a wonderful tone/space baked in those sustains (neglecting the legato parts for a moment)


That example is not using that tweak, just the slowed legato. It's the same example i posted earlier on the very first day I got the library. Yes, this is sul tasto, and i agree with you I love the tone! Only one dynamic layer for the tastos but i still feel some movement just with volume control.

With the sped up ports, I really like the sound and feel of the sordino. It almost reminds me of Hollywood Strings. The sordino has more than one dynamic layer too, so do expect me to post some of my noodling with it


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> Only one dynamic layer for the tastos but i still feel some movement just with volume control.


ouch 😬 I was actually thinking if there is one single reason to make me grab the extension then it would be the sul tastos... thanks for pointing this out


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> ouch 😬 I was actually thinking if there is one single reason to make me grab the extension then it would be the sul tastos... thanks for pointing this out


I still feel it's worth it. You can't play a sul tasto too loudly anyway. Trust your ears, not some numbers on a page 😁 plus you're missing out on the gorgeous sordino!


----------



## Wunderhorn

Casiquire said:


> I still feel it's worth it. You can't play a sul tasto too loudly anyway. Trust your ears, not some numbers on a page 😁 plus you're missing out on the gorgeous sordino!


Seriously, for someone who has LASS sordinos (LS) as well as the legato flautando in Albion V Tundra - how much do you think does it make sense to go for the MSS extension?


----------



## Trevor Meier

Casiquire said:


> I still feel it's worth it. You can't play a sul tasto too loudly anyway. Trust your ears, not some numbers on a page 😁 plus you're missing out on the gorgeous sordino!


Oof yeah one dynamic layer is pretty thin. I'm sure it sounds good but it means there's just the one tone from that patch. Is there any RR?

Is the number of RR & dynamic layers listed anywhere? It's not on the main library page as far as I can see.


----------



## Casiquire

Wunderhorn said:


> Seriously, for someone who has LASS sordinos (LS) as well as the legato flautando in Albion V Tundra - how much do you think does it make sense to go for the MSS extension?


The sordino is a different flavor. Later tonight I'm expecting to post an example of it. It sounds nothing like the LASS sordino to me so maybe listen to it and see how it makes you feel.

I'm always doing little things to affect the sound though so my sordino example will have some adjustments made with the volume levels of individual divisi sections etc to get the sound I'm after, but just like the example above, i won't add any reverb, EQ, compression, or any other effects at all. The library holds up well dry in my opinion


----------



## Casiquire

Trevor Meier said:


> Oof yeah one dynamic layer is pretty thin. I'm sure it sounds good but it means there's just the one tone from that patch. Is there any RR?
> 
> Is the number of RR & dynamic layers listed anywhere? It's not on the main library page as far as I can see.


As far as I'm concerned, if it sounds good it sounds good. And you do get a different flavor: two divisi sections, one with more vibrato than the other. I didn't even use half the library to put that snippet together and I'm imagining how the other section could soften the sound in certain moments


----------



## ism

Wunderhorn said:


> Seriously, for someone who has LASS sordinos (LS) as well as the legato flautando in Albion V Tundra - how much do you think does it make sense to go for the MSS extension?



Another Sul tasto patch always makes sense (is my stock, knee-jerk answer to this question, every single time).

Much as I love Tundra, this is a completely different take on Sul tasto. And completely different again from the OT Special bows Sul tasto (which, incidentally, has 3 dynamic layers, to great effect).

So while technically they're they're all "Sul tasto", I still want *this* sul tasto. It's such a completely different envisioning and performance of what Sul tasto even means. It feels like a genuinely new space on the palette that this library is open up.


----------



## Noc

Wow, this thread just up and died all of a sudden. 

Can’t wait for the legato update. Really curious to see how much it’ll change the sound.


----------



## turnerofwheels

I started watching Wandavision and the opening of the ending credits struck me as somewhat close in tone to MSS so here it is...

View attachment wandavision.mp3


Some regular+rebowing legatos, plus figuring out how to match the vibratos. The shorts were tricky--a length right in between the staccatos and staccatissimos, couldn't exactly match. Time machine would come in handy for things like this.

(percussion cameo: also Audiobro)


----------



## Wunderhorn

Another user's first impression/demo surfaced on YouTube (though he seems to be struggling with an aging machine):


----------



## Raphioli

Noc said:


> Wow, this thread just up and died all of a sudden.


You make it sound like waiting patiently is a bad thing lol


----------



## FKVStudio

I suppose that many are doing tests, others waiting for them to continue publishing demos, ...

Since the guys at Audiobro publish the promised update, this thread is on fire again :D


----------



## Ritchie

Wunderhorn said:


> Another user's first impression/demo surfaced on YouTube (though he seems to be struggling with an aging machine):



On this subject, can you tell us @dxmachina whether there are there recommended system requirements for smooth performance?

I’m running a 2015 iMac with a 3.2ghz i5, 32gb RAM and a SSD. Not ‘high end’ and now a few years old, but definitely not a slow machine.


----------



## Wunderhorn

FKVStudio said:


> I suppose that many are doing tests, others waiting for them to continue publishing demos, ...


Maybe after the frantic groping for instant gratification everyone is now finally immersed in the manual...


----------



## novaburst

Wunderhorn said:


> Maybe after the frantic groping for instant gratification everyone is now finally immersed in the manual...


Haha maybe but the library will require you to set it up, I think this is what sets it apart as when you hear it from different users you can tell they are using a thier own setup to get there sound and sounds different from user to user, 

The more you stay with the library the more it offers


----------



## Casiquire

novaburst said:


> Haha maybe but the library will require you to set it up, I think this is what sets it apart as when you hear it from different users you can tell they are using a thier own setup to get there sound and sounds different from user to user,
> 
> The more you stay with the library the more it offers


So much like LASS in that way. It sounds different in everyone's hands but doesn't please many right out of the box


----------



## novaburst

Casiquire said:


> So much like LASS in that way. It sounds different in everyone's hands but doesn't please many right out of the box


Yes it does put a few people off, when you need to dig in and find the gold, but really brings interest to the library, and I would add beautiful legato, and tone, 

If I had an issue it would be turning off all the processing and FX and autos when ever you load a patch 

But I can live with that, the library certainly does not come across as a push over.


----------



## Batrawi

will put this here as we wait for the update
https://vi-control.net/community/th...-discussion-contributions.106014/post-4773377


----------



## biomuse

Batrawi said:


> will put this here as we wait for the update
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...-discussion-contributions.106014/post-4773377


Shared this to the “bEsT LeGaTo??!???” thread, hope that’s ok.


----------



## Batrawi

biomuse said:


> Shared this to the “bEsT LeGaTo??!???” thread, hope that’s ok.


be my guest


----------



## turnerofwheels

Great (musical) detective work in this thread


----------



## prodigalson

Can someone speak to (or better yet SHOW) what the *Solo* instruments sound like? Specifically how well the Intuition instruments work. That would be a big part of why I would buy but I can find zero info on what they sound like.


----------



## Noc

prodigalson said:


> Can someone speak to (or better yet SHOW) what the *Solo* instruments sound like? Specifically how well the Intuition instruments work. That would be a big part of why I would buy but I can find zero info on what they sound like.


This is short, but a good little demo of the MSS solo violin (first part is the soundtrack recording, second part is the MSS violin):


----------



## prodigalson

Noc said:


> This is short, but a good little demo of the MSS solo violin (first part is the soundtrack recording, second part is the MSS violin):



Thanks, yeah I saw that. It sounds promising but too short. I’m hoping to get more of a sense of how the intuition instruments sound too


----------



## Soundbed

prodigalson said:


> Thanks, yeah I saw that. It sounds promising but too short. I’m hoping to get more of a sense of how the intuition instruments sound too


I haven’t spent much time with the Intuition patches yet, and also not the soloists / first chairs yet.


----------



## Soundbed

Here’s a walkthrough of some of the other articulations, in a few ranges for most instruments. Also includes the new A.R.T. and goodies like octave runs for all the violins so you can hear the in situ placement in the sound stage. 

Should be good for falling asleep to....


----------



## berto

sorry, very late on this one. Is this the expected LASS 3?


----------



## FKVStudio

berto said:


> sorry, very late on this one. Is this the expected LASS 3?


No. This is a new library. LASS 3 will arrive by the end of the year, if there are no delays, according to Audiobro.


----------



## berto

FKVStudio said:


> No. This is a new library. LASS 3 will arrive by the end of the year, if there are no delays, according to Audiobro.


what's the point of doing so many strings library? does it mean that this one is not good enough? (no offense intended)


----------



## ism

berto said:


> what's the point of doing so many strings library


For a more comprehensive answer to this question, I'd refer you to, well, pretty much any vi-c thread, ever. 

Seriously, swing a dead cat on this site and more likely than not you'll hit a thread full of justifications for more strings libraries, and then more string libraries on top of those string libraries


----------



## novaburst

berto said:


> what's the point of doing so many strings library? does it mean that this one is not good enough? (no offense intended)


What's the point of so many colours,


----------



## Casiquire

berto said:


> what's the point of doing so many strings library? does it mean that this one is not good enough? (no offense intended)


Two? Two is less than half the number of string libraries most of the big players have made lol


----------



## BasariStudios

Soundbed said:


> Here’s a walkthrough of some of the other articulations, in a few ranges for most instruments. Also includes the new A.R.T. and goodies like octave runs for all the violins so you can hear the in situ placement in the sound stage.
> 
> Should be good for falling asleep to....



Thanks Man!


----------



## Noeticus

novaburst said:


> What's the point of so many colours,


Why, why, why so many friggin' electrons. AND there basically all the same!

What up with that?


----------



## bvaughn0402

Again to me so easy to explain with guitars ... why so many? Because a Les Paul is not a Tele is not a Strat is not a ....

You ONLY need ONE good one.
But there can be justification for needing multiple ones ...


----------



## Evans

berto said:


> what's the point of doing so many strings library? does it mean that this one is not good enough? (no offense intended)


A real bowed string instrument can offer a wide variety of sounds. Combine that with the difference in sound based on the number of players, recording space, and mic'ing techniques, and it's unreasonable to expect one library to cover the full range of sonic possibilities.

Sometimes, these options are crucial to a project. Sometimes, hearing something new can break you out of the creative doldrums.

Yes, it can get a bit silly. Does anyone really need CSS, Vista, and Con Moto? Probably not.

Unfortunately, an alternate library can also be nice to have around because of goofs in another. Maybe a bad take or sloppy transition can stick out too much if exposed, so you might need to sub something else in. It sucks, but it happens.


----------



## berto

well my question was merely why so many strings libraries from the same developer in such a short time. I just got the news of Modern scoring strings and they already announced LASS 3... i wonder what will be so different. Modern scoring strings seems already a big beast!

Well, i am going back to my old Roland s-330 Symphonic Strings CD...


----------



## Soundbed

berto said:


> what's the point of doing so many strings library? does it mean that this one is not good enough? (no offense intended)


My guesses, based on limited information but simply thinking through the question a bit...:

I think in AudioBro's case (not trying to speak for them) they wanted to have a library that introduced some of the new features like recorded scales, runs, ostinatos, new shorts like martelé and aleatoric effects ... but they could not go back and "re-record" LASS with those additions a decade later.

So making a whole new and consistent library with all the new material made sense.

I presume for LASS 3 (and I don't really know) the updates will at least include GUI and engine changes. Given their experience working directly with Native Instruments on the Symphony Series and now the Modern Scoring Brass and Genesis engines, LASS might even get a new look and feel and even more controls than it had before. But I'd guess AB would be primarily refreshing / re-using the original LASS recordings in 3.x ... maybe (a little) like Spitfire did, when they re-released Albion One.


----------



## Casiquire

berto said:


> well my question was merely why so many strings libraries from the same developer in such a short time. I just got the news of Modern scoring strings and they already announced LASS 3... i wonder what will be so different. Modern scoring strings seems already a big beast!
> 
> Well, i am going back to my old Roland s-330 Symphonic Strings CD...


LASS 3 isn't a new library. It's taking LASS and putting it into their new interface. That's two string libraries, ten years apart. Not very many 😁

It's justified though. They have very different sounds and styles so I'll be reaching for one when i work on some projects, and the other for different sounding projects


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Here’s a walkthrough of some of the other articulations, in a few ranges for most instruments. Also includes the new A.R.T. and goodies like octave runs for all the violins so you can hear the in situ placement in the sound stage.
> 
> Should be good for falling asleep to....



Sounds quite good. I have high hopes for the 1.1 update.


----------



## BasariStudios

berto said:


> well my question was merely why so many strings libraries from the same developer in such a short time. I just got the news of Modern scoring strings and they already announced LASS 3... i wonder what will be so different. Modern scoring strings seems already a big beast!
> 
> Well, i am going back to my old Roland s-330 Symphonic Strings CD...


As other people said, there is not many, its only 1 SINGLE Library
from AudioBro...MSS. Where did you hear about the other???
LASS is as old as my Grandma...it will be a nice make over for it.


----------



## ansthenia

berto said:


> well my question was merely why so many strings libraries from the same developer in such a short time. I just got the news of Modern scoring strings and they already announced LASS 3... i wonder what will be so different. Modern scoring strings seems already a big beast!
> 
> Well, i am going back to my old Roland s-330 Symphonic Strings CD...


LASS 3 is not a new library.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi, 

MSS users, how do you like the timbre of these strings so far ? 

Are you spending a lot of time tweaking to get them to sound to your taste ? or are they satisfying your taste, with just a bit of reverb, EQ, and mic level/combination selection ?

Thanks.


----------



## Evans

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> MSS users, how do you like the timbre of these strings so far ?
> 
> Are you spending a lot of time tweaking to get them to sound to your taste ? or are they satisfying your taste, with just a bit of reverb, EQ, and mic level/combination selection ?
> 
> Thanks.


I hope to take some time this upcoming week to put them in a satisfactory space. They sound a bit boxed in (but not _nearly_ as bad as MSB). 

I heard a lovely example in another thread in which someone used Afflatus for a mockup from the movie Contact. It had some lovely air to it that I'd like to mimic. I see future use of MSS much like I do Afflatus, with its unique, textural possibilities. 

It will also give me a good excuse to get comfortable with Cinematic Rooms, which I picked up last week. 

If I achieve any level of satisfaction, I'll post examples. If not, well, I'll come asking for help.


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> MSS users, how do you like the timbre of these strings so far ?


i am loving this library to bits


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> LASS 3 isn't a new library. It's taking LASS and putting it into their new interface. That's two string libraries, ten years apart. Not very many


Yeah, I'm not going to complain about quality of life improvements, even if I gotta pay for them. Besides, it's like asking why does Spitfire have SSS and SCS and Tundra and Hans Zimmer Strings. They each offer something different that people are obviously willing to pay for.


----------



## Casiquire

Evans said:


> Yeah, I'm not going to complain about quality of life improvements, even if I gotta pay for them. Besides, it's like asking why does Spitfire have SSS and SCS and Tundra and Hans Zimmer Strings. They each offer something different that people are obviously willing to pay for.


Oh I'm not complaining lol! I'm excited for the upgrade myself


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> Oh I'm not complaining lol! I'm excited for the upgrade myself


_You _weren't, nope.


----------



## muziksculp

novaburst said:


> i am loving this library to bits


That's great. Thanks for the feedback. 

Beautiful String Timbre is a crucial part of Strings, and what makes them special, I'm hoping that if I get MSS, I would not have to waste a lot of my time wearing a sound engineer's hat to make them sound to my taste. 

A bit Off Topic, but I'm currently tempted to buy Performance Samples Con Moto Strings, mainly for their Wonderful, and expressive timbre, and legatos. Just splash a little bit of reverb on them, and they sound great. 

I'm still not sure about the general out of the box sound/timbre of MSS. 

But I will stay optimistic, and also wait for 1.1 update.


----------



## dzilizzi

Evans said:


> I hope to take some time this upcoming week to put them in a satisfactory space. They sound a bit boxed in (but not _nearly_ as bad as MSB).
> 
> I heard a lovely example in another thread in which someone used Afflatus for a mockup from the movie Contact. It had some lovely air to it that I'd like to mimic. I see future use of MSS much like I do Afflatus, with its unique, textural possibilities.
> 
> It will also give me a good excuse to get comfortable with Cinematic Rooms, which I picked up last week.
> 
> If I achieve any level of satisfaction, I'll post examples. If not, well, I'll come asking for help.


Part of me that likes all the options that come with MSS hopes you find a way to make it less boxy or whatever that tone is I'm not crazy about. The part of me that thinks it's above my budget Hope's you can't find the sound so I don't feel the need to buy it. 

Okay, there's no "need" involved. I need another string library like I need another hole in my head. 

Anyway, thanks for trying. Is it weird every time I see the word "contact" now, I think it's misspelled?


----------



## Casiquire

Contact is an amazing movie and book too, off topic lol


----------



## muziksculp

novaburst said:


> i am loving this library to bits


What part of the library you like the most so far ?


----------



## soulofsound

muziksculp said:


> That's great. Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Beautiful String Timbre is a crucial part of Strings, and what makes them special, I'm hoping that if I get MSS, I would not have to waste a lot of my time wearing a sound engineer's hat to make them sound to my taste.
> 
> A bit Off Topic, but I'm currently tempted to buy Performance Samples Con Moto Strings, mainly for their Wonderful, and expressive timbre, and legatos. Just splash a little bit of reverb on them, and they sound great.
> 
> I'm still not sure about the general out of the box sound/timbre of MSS.
> 
> But I will stay optimistic, and also wait for 1.1 update.


I'm also tempted. It looks like a great deal.


----------



## Batrawi

muziksculp said:


> MSS users, how do you like the timbre of these strings so far ?


It's really subjective.. but to me, if LASS is the definition of "gritty" then MSS is the definition of "fluffy"... I also find the sound in MSS a bit suffocated (with a pillow maybe because it sounds fluffy ) even with the close mics (my preferred mic position) but found that the default EQ helps it gain more "presence", so I tend to leave it always on from now on, which makes me want to explore the other eq presets more to see what they may offer but still don't have the time for that. In all cases, it still sounds brighter to me than something like CSS and its gentle/non-intrusive vibrato definitely lends itself to a much wider applications...


----------



## ChristianM

Soundbed said:


> My guesses, based on limited information but simply thinking through the question a bit...:
> 
> I think in AudioBro's case (not trying to speak for them) they wanted to have a library that introduced some of the new features like recorded scales, runs, ostinatos, new shorts like martelé and aleatoric effects ... but they could not go back and "re-record" LASS with those additions a decade later.
> 
> So making a whole new and consistent library with all the new material made sense.
> 
> I presume for LASS 3 (and I don't really know) the updates will at least include GUI and engine changes. Given their experience working directly with Native Instruments on the Symphony Series and now the Modern Scoring Brass and Genesis engines, LASS might even get a new look and feel and even more controls than it had before. But I'd guess AB would be primarily refreshing / re-using the original LASS recordings in 3.x ... maybe (a little) like Spitfire did, when they re-released Albion One.


Spitfire reuses a lot the credulity of its customers


----------



## BasariStudios

F IT! I am pulling the Plug, my BDay tomorrow, my Wife's
Gift, i was thinking of what but i really want this with a hope
that the update will fix few things.


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> F IT! I am pulling the Plug, my BDay tomorrow, my Wife's
> Gift, i was thinking of what but i really want this with a hope
> that the update will fix few things.


Congratulations. Wise decision by your Mrs. Legato is obviously no longer an issue as proved by recent Pix trick example, just post some demos that make it sound good please.


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> Congratulations. Wise decision by your Mrs. Legato is obviously no longer an issue as proved by recent Pix trick example, just post some demos that make it sound good please.


----------



## BasariStudios

Ok, spent about 15 minutes on this...did not do Batch Resave yet
but like this takes long time to Load the Patch. I love the Sound and
the Features, its Amazing but...there is definitely something wrong 
with the Transitions, the first moment you turn it on you know there
is something wrong...its just not there. Lets see...I have tons of Strings
Libraries to compare the Transitions to and this did not have any WOW
effect Transitions wise, but Sound and Features is a different story.


----------



## Evans

BasariStudios said:


> Ok, spent about 15 minutes on this...did not do Batch Resave yet
> but like this takes long time to Load the Patch. I love the Sound and
> the Features, its Amazing but...there is definitely something wrong
> with the Transitions, the first moment you turn it on you know there
> is something wrong...its just not there. Lets see...I have tons of Strings
> Libraries to compare the Transitions to and this did not have any WOW
> effect Transitions wise, but Sound and Features is a different story.


1. Batch resave is a must, for pretty much any Kontakt library

2. Did you turn off auto divisi? If you're not playing for poly legato, it needs to be turned off (unless you are using a Split patch).


----------



## YaniDee

I keep ignoring this post, as I don't want to be tempted by more string libraries..but geez 233k views has piqued my curiosity..
Anyone care to summarize the last 4k posts on this subject? Good library to get??


----------



## Casiquire

Stupid question, what does batch resave even *do*? And if it's so critical why doesn't Native Access just do it automatically? Lol!


----------



## YaniDee

Casiquire said:


> Stupid question, what does batch resave even *do*? And if it's so critical why doesn't Native Access just do it automatically? Lol!











Pro Tip #1: Run a Kontakt Batch Resave on your libraries to speed up i


By Mike Peaslee Here's a great tip for speeding up the load time on sample libraries within Kontakt. This can be especially helpful for larger and more ram-intensive instrument presets. Kontakt has the ability to store sample path information for a library specifically for your machine and hard...




soundiron.com


----------



## molemac

YaniDee said:


> I keep ignoring this post, as I don't want to be tempted by more string libraries..but geez 233k views has piqued my curiosity..
> Anyone care to summarize the last 4k posts on this subject? Good library to get??


MSS is the updated version of Lass with new recordings and a ridiculous amount of features which make it so hotly anticipated. The first demos and user feedback were mixed and threw up a problem with the legatos. This has been pretty much fixed by users under the hood and also hopefully/more than likely by Audio bro with a new v1.1. There is still a debate raging about the actual sound of the library but users are split. The choice for Lass owners is tricky as Lass3 promises to update the features (not the recordings) but some people like the sound a Lass a lot as it has a realism that’s Mss doesn’t yet seem to have but is nevertheless possibly a very useable but different sounding library. Where Lass is a little rough but emotive , Mss is smoother but less immediately real. Hopefully on release of 1.1 new demos will emerge that convince people like me on the fence to jump ship. Quite possibly it is still worth getting even if you dont use the sustain or legato patches which is what I am thinking at the moment. There are plenty of other string libraries that sound better out of the box but none can do as much as this does.

Good library to get??




I dont have it but I think so


----------



## BasariStudios

Batch Resave took about 12-13 minutes now works like a Clock.


----------



## YaniDee

molemac said:


> MSS is the updated version of Lass with new recordings and a ridiculous amount of features which make it so hotly anticipated.


Thank you for your clear and informative summary...are you a professional writer / reviewer? You sound like you've done this before. Cheers..


----------



## molemac

YaniDee said:


> Thank you for your clear and informative summary...are you a professional writer / reviewer? You sound like you've done this before. Cheers..


Not a reviewer but a professional film/tv composer and songwriter of 35 years with a little more time on my hands recently to spend too much time here. String libraries are addictive and should come with a health warning.


----------



## YaniDee

molemac said:


> String libraries are addictive and should come with a health warning.


But, on occasion, they make you happy and satisfied..


----------



## Evans

molemac said:


> MSS is the updated version of Lass


I feel like this first statement is already off and potentially confusing to people not familiar with what's actually going on.


----------



## YaniDee

Oh-oh..the plot thickens..


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> MSS is the updated version of Lass


I wouldn’t say MSS has anything to do with LASS, other than being a different strings library from the same developer.

Edit - not trying to come off as confrontational — I don’t see a connection or any ”update” relationship between the two.


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> MSS is the updated version of Lass with new recordings and a ridiculous amount of features which make it so hotly anticipated.


I don't think they have to do anything with each other 
at all except the same Developer LOGO on their stuff.
There is actually an official LASS 3 upgrade coming up.


----------



## Casiquire

YaniDee said:


> Pro Tip #1: Run a Kontakt Batch Resave on your libraries to speed up i
> 
> 
> By Mike Peaslee Here's a great tip for speeding up the load time on sample libraries within Kontakt. This can be especially helpful for larger and more ram-intensive instrument presets. Kontakt has the ability to store sample path information for a library specifically for your machine and hard...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soundiron.com


I still don't quite understand why that isn't part of the installation process. The whole thing doesn't exactly make sense to me


----------



## molemac

Evans said:


> I feel like this first statement is already off and potentially confusing to people not familiar with what's actually going on.


Well thankfully it looks like he read the rest. And be fair, MSS has been developed on the experience of Lass and has some of its features, Auto divisi, Auto rhythm, moveable Aleatorics etc and let’s not forget even some of the same samples. ( why is the poor viola always forgotten )
Ps was just trying to be helpful.


----------



## molemac

Casiquire said:


> I still don't quite understand why that isn't part of the installation process. The whole thing doesn't exactly make sense to me


I think its because Kontakt cant know before you install a library exactly where you are installing so it needs you to specify in the batch resave which speeds up the loading. Key sentence :. Kontakt has the ability to store sample path information for a library specifically for your machine and hard drive configuration


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> I still don't quite understand why that isn't part of the installation process. The whole thing doesn't exactly make sense to me





molemac said:


> I think its because Kontakt cant know before you install a library exactly where you are installing so it needs you to specify in the batch resave which speeds up the loading. Key sentence :. Kontakt has the ability to store sample path information for a library specifically for your machine and hard drive configuration


My semi-educated, shot-in-the-dark-so-someone-more-knowledgeable-let-me-know-if-I’m-totally-wrong guess: Since Kontakt can’t know how your system is organized and where in it you install your libraries, it uses relative directory paths by default to find samples, which guarantees compatibility across different systems at the cost of having to cross-check those relative paths with your system to find each file it loads, which slows it down. Batch-resaving hardcodes the actual, absolute file paths into the patches instead, so it can then find the samples directly, massively speeding up loading, though loading will instantly break if you move the library folder afterwards (prompting a new batch resave).


----------



## PJMorgan

molemac said:


> MSS is the updated version of Lass with new recordings and a ridiculous amount of features which make it so hotly anticipated. The first demos and user feedback were mixed and threw up a problem with the legatos. This has been pretty much fixed by users under the hood and also hopefully/more than likely by Audio bro with a new v1.1. There is still a debate raging about the actual sound of the library but users are split. The choice for Lass owners is tricky as Lass3 promises to update the features (not the recordings) but some people like the sound a Lass a lot as it has a realism that’s Mss doesn’t yet seem to have but is nevertheless possibly a very useable but different sounding library. Where Lass is a little rough but emotive , Mss is smoother but less immediately real. Hopefully on release of 1.1 new demos will emerge that convince people like me on the fence to jump ship. Quite possibly it is still worth getting even if you dont use the sustain or legato patches which is what I am thinking at the moment. There are plenty of other string libraries that sound better out of the box but none can do as much as this does.
> 
> Good library to get??
> 
> 
> 
> I dont have it but I think so


Just incase any Lass full owners been waiting on Lass 3 (like myself) & is thinking this is it, it's not. This is a completely new & separate string library to Lass. Lass 3 is supposed to be coming later this year, which is really going to be the current Lass but updated with the UI & keyswitching features of MSS.

As a Lass owner I'm in 2 minds about this one, as I think MSS really is amazing especially at the great crossgrade offer. But Lass is still my main string library & I've been able to get by with it for what i do up until now. I also have SStS & BBCSO Core & definitely intend to upgrade to Lass 3 when it comes out but as much as I want to add MSS to the collection I recently got a new audio interface & I'm not sure i can stretch the budget for it ........ we'll see.....


----------



## BasariStudios

For some odd reason or i might be wrong but i find the
Solos (First Chairs) to have really good Transitions.


----------



## turnerofwheels

Casiquire said:


> I still don't quite understand why that isn't part of the installation process. The whole thing doesn't exactly make sense to me


Since it makes your library incompatible with previous versions of kontakt, maybe it shouldn't happen by default, but still be an option during installation... It's pretty odd. It took at least a minute for my machine to load an MSS patch before batch resave and maybe two seconds to load a patch after...


----------



## turnerofwheels

molemac said:


> I think its because Kontakt cant know before you install a library exactly where you are installing so it needs you to specify in the batch resave which speeds up the loading. Key sentence :. Kontakt has the ability to store sample path information for a library specifically for your machine and hard drive configuration


That's the user friendly answer, but for a techie, it doesn't answer much. When you set a location for your library say e:\audiobro\etc or what not, that already tells Kontakt where to look on your machine when you load it from the library gui.

I found this link courtesy this useful thread which goes more into detail. It turns out it has less to do with your specific computer, and more as to whether or not your computer and the developer's computer was a Mac or PC (I wonder if this is why my Spitfire libraries open so blazing fast out of the box on my PC without batch resaving)_: "The problem arises when you take an instrument saved on a Mac and open it on the opposite PC platform (or vice versa). Because the sample references inside the instrument differ slightly from the opposite platform, Kontakt can't utilise on the *NKC* cache and has to use the long-winded process of searching the drive and files every time you load the NKI."_

If I can glean anything from it, it sounds like there is potential risk involved (easily mitigated by backing up your instrument files before saving) so maybe this is why it isn't done automatically.









The Blake Robinson Synthetic Orchestra - Tutorials » Batch Re-saving


Synthetic Orchestra. Now up to 736 pieces of music. That's 26 hours, 11 minutes of listening!




www.syntheticorchestra.com


----------



## prodigalson

BasariStudios said:


> For some odd reason or i might be wrong but i find the
> Solos (First Chairs) to have really good Transitions.


Care to provide an example?? There's virtually no information or examples of the solos AT ALL and that would be a big draw for me..


----------



## prodigalson

SHANE TURNER said:


> I wonder if this is why my Spitfire libraries open so blazing fast out of the box on my PC without batch resaving


Spitfire seems to almost universally use macs though so it's actually a pretty safe bet that the download versions of the patches were saved on a Mac.


----------



## BasariStudios

prodigalson said:


> Care to provide an example?? There's virtually no information or examples of the solos AT ALL and that would be a big draw for me..


Actually i stand corrected...i was wrong...i tried the CELLO only which
actually is good but every other Solo Sucks. Violin 1 Worst i think.
Holly hell the CPU Mark on this, a lot worse than u-He Diva.


----------



## prodigalson

BasariStudios said:


> Actually i stand corrected...i was wrong...i tried the CELLO only which
> actually is good but every other Solo Sucks. Violin 1 Worst i think.
> Holly hell the CPU Mark on this, a lot worse than u-He Diva.


oy. how about the intuition patches? Is the playability/tone any better?


----------



## turnerofwheels

prodigalson said:


> Spitfire seems to almost universally use macs though so it's actually a pretty safe bet that the download versions of the patches were saved on a Mac.


The contained link says they were saved for PC and is written by someone who works on SF libraries.


----------



## Casiquire

SHANE TURNER said:


> That's the user friendly answer, but for a techie, it doesn't answer much. When you set a location for your library say e:\audiobro\etc or what not, that already tells Kontakt where to look on your machine when you load it from the library gui.
> 
> I found this link courtesy this useful thread which goes more into detail. It turns out it has less to do with your specific computer, and more as to whether or not your computer and the developer's computer was a Mac or PC (I wonder if this is why my Spitfire libraries open so blazing fast out of the box on my PC without batch resaving)_: "The problem arises when you take an instrument saved on a Mac and open it on the opposite PC platform (or vice versa). Because the sample references inside the instrument differ slightly from the opposite platform, Kontakt can't utilise on the *NKC* cache and has to use the long-winded process of searching the drive and files every time you load the NKI."_
> 
> If I can glean anything from it, it sounds like there is potential risk involved (easily mitigated by backing up your instrument files before saving) so maybe this is why it isn't done automatically.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Blake Robinson Synthetic Orchestra - Tutorials » Batch Re-saving
> 
> 
> Synthetic Orchestra. Now up to 736 pieces of music. That's 26 hours, 11 minutes of listening!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.syntheticorchestra.com


Ah that might have my answers. Thanks!


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> Actually i stand corrected...i was wrong...i tried the CELLO only which
> actually is good but every other Solo Sucks. Violin 1 Worst i think.
> Holly hell the CPU Mark on this, a lot worse than u-He Diva.


Happy birthday, are you not liking your wife’s new present ?


----------



## Wunderhorn

For those who already have MSS - and since it seems to be established that it does not sound very similar to LASS, to what other string libraries would you compare the sound?


----------



## Casiquire

Wunderhorn said:


> For those who already have MSS - and since it seems to be established that it does not sound very similar to LASS, to what other string libraries would you compare the sound?


From the demos, to me it kind of sounds like NSS. I seem to be the only one who feels this way lol but that's ok. Some people compare it to Hollywood Strings but i only hear that comparison in the sordino (i only own the expanded legato)


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> Happy birthday, are you not liking your wife’s new present ?


The Legatos not yet...waiting for the Updates.


----------



## BasariStudios

Wunderhorn said:


> For those who already have MSS - and since it seems to be established that it does not sound very similar to LASS, to what other string libraries would you compare the sound?


I own a lot of Strings Libraries and tried to Compare. 
To me the Closest is coming is BBC SO PRO. Its ROUND,
warm, you do not hear each player separately like in
EW HS or Synchron Strings Pro or even LASS.
I can not explain, it sound more like 1 unified Instrument
then 15-20-30 Players. It is more Soft and Mellow but also
it can get very aggressive. It has huge Dynamic Range.


----------



## Wunderhorn

BasariStudios said:


> ... It is more Soft and Mellow but also
> it can get very aggressive. It has huge Dynamic Range.


I'd love to hear some more demos that focus on dynamic range. How soft, how aggressive. Not just by mod wheel position but in your writing how aggressive can you get it to sound (think some Shostakovich) and at the same how delicate can it get? Showcasing maybe more of an emotional range than the purely technical pre-requisites that the libraries might fill based just on numbers alone.


----------



## FKVStudio

I just found this on Youtube. They sound spectacular to me.


----------



## dzilizzi

FKVStudio said:


> I just found this on Youtube. They sound spectacular to me.



Wow, that sounds really good. I like the tone in that. Rethinking my not now maybe later stance.....


----------



## soulofsound

The example shows the limits of technical tests, which have use and merit, but only tell you so much. I think MSS is one of the best sounding libraries with huge potential for shaping the sound.


----------



## FKVStudio

dzilizzi said:


> Wow, that sounds really good. I like the tone in that. Rethinking my not now maybe later stance.....


I have asked the creator and he answers that all the strings that sound are Modern Scoring Strings. He has not layering with other libraries and the only "external" that he has included is the French Horns from Audio Imperia's Jaeger.


----------



## dzilizzi

FKVStudio said:


> I have asked the creator and he answers that all the strings that sound are Modern Scoring Strings. He has not layering with other libraries and the only "external" that he has included is the French Horns from Audio Imperia's Jaeger.


I think it's the settings he is using. MSS allows for a lot of shaping. I'm not so good at shaping sound. Though sometimes it it fun to try and I shouldn't get horrible loud sine waves playing with this as I would playing with a synth - normally what you use to learn about shaping sound.


----------



## Lazer42

That new video does sound pretty good, but it's worth keeping in mind (for those still trying to evaluate whether or not to purchase this library) that the piece being played there is a very specific style or sound. I think the strings sound good in that context, but they also sound thin. I don't mean "thin" in a bad or derogatory way here, because I think that thinner sound is what the piece calls for. The issue is if somebody is looking to do something that calls for a fuller sound and has been disappointed in previous demos, I don't think this one changes that.


----------



## FKVStudio

Is that as I have always read around here complaints about the sound, the legato, that it sounds muddy, that it sounds thin, ..... The video gives me to understand that this library offers all the possibilities. Of course, you have to work in each case to get the sound you are looking for. I do not see a defect, but each one with his opinion


----------



## Casiquire

FKVStudio said:


> I just found this on Youtube. They sound spectacular to me.



I love the tone of it as expected, but it sounds like they're drunk. I think they are playing the entire thing with sped up legatos like I've been doing, but they overshot and now the transitions are TOO slow. The sound itself is great though. I just would've sped that port up even more


----------



## biomuse

Are those port or gliss?

It sounds great. I’m of the opinion that v1.1 will kill it, because I’d bet my left arm that the raw material for fully displayed transitions is there in the sample pool and it’s simply a matter of bringing it out. To play devil’s advocate though, the gesture throughout the piece is: single note crescendo—>gliss down—>repeat, for the entire piece. While entrancing, it’s not a reasonable way to assess a sustained legato line as yet. The first chair solo strings peppered throughout sound fantastic in this piece.

On tone, I’m bemused by the debate, because this sampling session was triple miked, the close mics are very detailed indeed, and that means it’s just a matter of EQ and maybe some character (via preamp, tape, compressors etc.) to taste. It really is. The raw material’s there.

There were all sorts of complaints about e.g., VSL solo strings when they came out; how they were “cold” in tone, “sterile,” etc. etc., people then readily composed pieces with them that showed that the warmth, wood & rosin was all in there just waiting to be brought out with processing to one’s own preference.


----------



## AEF

the portamento transitions are fine. the legato transitions are of issue, and there are volume inconsistencies when switching between the two. 

still cant get the provided articulations sets to work either. 

the cresendo-normal-accented feels cumbersome to use, particularly with legato on.

the section shorts are somewhat mechanical sounding to me, although the soloists shorts are great.

the trems, trills, scales, and ostinatos are great. 

was so excited for this library but it has already been moved to my spare HDD.


----------



## dzilizzi

biomuse said:


> Are those port or gliss?
> 
> It sounds great. I’m of the opinion that v1.1 will kill it, because I’d bet my left arm that the raw material for fully displayed transitions is there in the sample pool and it’s simply a matter of bringing it out. To play devil’s advocate though, the gesture throughout the piece is: single note crescendo—>gliss down—>repeat, for the entire piece. While entrancing, it’s not a reasonable way to assess a sustained legato line as yet. The first chair solo strings peppered throughout sound fantastic in this piece.
> 
> On tone, I’m bemused by the debate, because this sampling session was triple miked, the close mics are very detailed indeed, and that means it’s just a matter of EQ and maybe some character (via preamp, tape, compressors etc.) to taste. It really is. The raw material’s there.
> 
> There were all sorts of complaints about e.g., VSL solo strings when they came out; how they were “cold” in tone, “sterile,” etc. etc., people then readily composed pieces with them that showed that the warmth, wood & rosin was all in there just waiting to be brought out with processing to one’s own preference.


For me, it is the tone. I wasn't really paying attention to the legato so much. It's one of those thing that I can't explain because I don't know whether it is boxy or woody or thin. I just know when I like the sound. The things I've heard so far have been a bit mixed, which leads me to believe the sound is there, but I'm not sure how much work it is to get it.


----------



## Raphioli

I really appreciate the diverse(pros&cons) opinions/reviews of the library by users so far.

I haven't been posting frequently as I was previously, but still have been reading through the posts
and just wanted to say thx.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

2 quick pieces of advice that may help some of the problems I’m seeing people have:

1. Be aware that the mix mic ONLY mixes the stage and room mics. AudioBro mentions that this is because everyone has a different preference for amount of close mic. So I keep both on and dial the close mic to taste (currently that’s -4.5db).

2. For using the included articulation sets/expression maps, you MUST select the DAW Integration snapshot from the snapshot list. It won’t work otherwise.

Hope that helps a few people!


----------



## biomuse

AEF said:


> the portamento transitions are fine. the legato transitions are of issue, and there are volume inconsistencies when switching between the two.


Good to know. Hit Andrew & Sebastian up on the Audiobro forum? - this is the kind of thing that they can correct by putting the time in.



AEF said:


> still cant get the provided articulations sets to work either.


In Logic you mean?



AEF said:


> the cresendo-normal-accented feels cumbersome to use, particularly with legato on.


Is this velocity by default or CC? Can it be changed to match your preference? I feel as though Velocity—>attack type would be the way I’d want things, with transition triggered with another CC.



AEF said:


> the section shorts are somewhat mechanical sounding to me, although the soloists shorts are great.


Cranking up humanization on the sections doesn’t help with this?



AEF said:


> the trems, trills, scales, and ostinatos are great.


----------



## DarthSouls

Hi there, I'm new here. I made the video a page back that was posted this afternoon.

A few pointers:
- Yes, I put the transition speed of the glissando all the way down (the rest is on auto)
- I used some patches from the expanded legatos.
(The piece was a real quick one, primarily trying/demonstrating the legato strings, don't look too critically at the composition itself)

The library as a whole sounds pretty great.
However, I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of the approach they seem to be taking, where in some cases algorithms decide which articulations (in shorts) or even which notes are being played (ostinatos). As a long time user of LASS, I feel less in control (but that may change the more I use MSS).

As someone said, crescendo & glissando are linked in legato, which is one of those decisions I'm trying to wrap my head around. Technically you can unlink them, but the default settings seem (generally) really targeted to production speed at the cost of control.

Some major positives:
- the solo violin sounds way more lyrical than the FCs in LASS, I like it a lot
- a less harsh sound in general, particular the legato celli


----------



## Noeticus

DarthSouls said:


> Hi there, I'm new here. I made the video a page back that was posted this afternoon.
> 
> A few pointers:
> - Yes, I put the transition speed of the glissando all the way down (the rest is on auto)
> - I used some patches from the expanded legatos.
> (The piece was a real quick one, primarily trying/demonstrating the legato strings, don't look too critically at the composition itself)
> 
> The library as a whole sounds pretty great.
> However, I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of the approach they seem te be taking, where in some cases algorithms decide which articulations (in shorts) or even which notes are being played (ostinatos). As a long time user of LASS, I feel less in control (but that may change the more I use MSS).
> 
> As someone said, crescendo & glissando are linked in legato, which is one of those decisions I'm trying to wrap my head around. Technically you can unlink them, but the default settings seem (generally) really targeted to production speed at the cost of control.
> 
> Some major positives:
> - the solo violin sounds way more lyrical than the FCs in LASS, I like it a lot
> - a less harsh sound in general, particular the legato celli


THANKS!!! for posting here.


----------



## ansthenia

DarthSouls said:


> Hi there, I'm new here. I made the video a page back that was posted this afternoon.
> 
> A few pointers:
> - Yes, I put the transition speed of the glissando all the way down (the rest is on auto)
> - I used some patches from the expanded legatos.
> (The piece was a real quick one, primarily trying/demonstrating the legato strings, don't look too critically at the composition itself)
> 
> The library as a whole sounds pretty great.
> However, I'm not sure if I'm a big fan of the approach they seem te be taking, where in some cases algorithms decide which articulations (in shorts) or even which notes are being played (ostinatos). As a long time user of LASS, I feel less in control (but that may change the more I use MSS).
> 
> As someone said, crescendo & glissando are linked in legato, which is one of those decisions I'm trying to wrap my head around. Technically you can unlink them, but the default settings seem (generally) really targeted to production speed at the cost of control.
> 
> Some major positives:
> - the solo violin sounds way more lyrical than the FCs in LASS, I like it a lot
> - a less harsh sound in general, particular the legato celli


Welcome! Thanks for sharing your feelings on this library.


----------



## molemac

FKVStudio said:


> I just found this on Youtube. They sound spectacular to me.



The use of the 1st chair is helping making it sound more real and less synthy for sure (possibly a little too loud but listening on iPad) . The overuse of portamento though is unconvincing. The last section from 1:00 sounds better. Is there a way to reduce the volume of the portamento or make it more subtle?


----------



## Casiquire

molemac said:


> The use of the 1st chair is helping making it sound more real and less synthy for sure (possibly a little too loud but listening on iPad) . The overuse of portamento though is unconvincing. The last section from 1:00 sounds better. Is there a way to reduce the volume of the portamento or make it more subtle?


Both, yes. It can be made quieter and it can be sped up


----------



## DarthSouls

> Both, yes. It can be made quieter and it can be sped up


Note that this is true for 'standard' legato, not for expanded legato. It's one of those points I was talking about, where I feel MSS gives less control than LASS.
I used the default settings on the portamento and, as you all noticed, they are a bit problematic.

(But also: the library is maybe too fresh to pass judgement on, it took me about a year to be able to really 'swim' in LASS)


----------



## soulofsound

DarthSouls said:


> Note that this is true for 'standard' legato, not for expanded legato. It's one of those points I was talking about, where I feel MSS gives less control than LASS.
> I used the default settings on the portamento and, as you all noticed, they are a bit problematic.
> 
> (But also: the library is maybe too fresh to pass judgement on, it took me about a year to be able to really 'swim' in LASS)


I use the portamento differently from LASS. With MSS i think it's better to use the portamento only for portamento transitions and not as a second legato at fast setting. There's a lot of expression in using the normal-accented-crescendo with legato transitions. Then I leave the portamento/glissando for when I really need sliding between notes (which works really well for that).


----------



## Casiquire

DarthSouls said:


> Note that this is true for 'standard' legato, not for expanded legato. It's one of those points I was talking about, where I feel MSS gives less control than LASS.
> I used the default settings on the portamento and, as you all noticed, they are a bit problematic.
> 
> (But also: the library is maybe too fresh to pass judgement on, it took me about a year to be able to really 'swim' in LASS)


I'm not sure i follow what you mean. Which legato can't you control? I only have the Expanded Legato set and i can affect the transitions here


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Looks like current ETA for 1.1 is another ~2 weeks.


----------



## borisb2

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Looks like current ETA for 1.1 is another ~2 weeks.


I'd rather wait 3 weeks if its going to be a game changer


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> I'm not sure i follow what you mean. Which legato can't you control? I only have the Expanded Legato set and i can affect the transitions here


not at the computer at the moment - but I think in standard MSS one can only change the speed of portamento and Gliss, not the volume. Only for legato we have more control .. Am I wrong? will check later


----------



## Casiquire

borisb2 said:


> not at the computer at the moment - but I think in standard MSS one can only change the speed of portamento and Gliss, not the volume. Only for legato we have more control .. Am I wrong? will check later


I can change the volume as well in the extended


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> I can change the volume as well in the extended


oh dang .. can you make a screenshot for proof? 

Didnt plan to buy the extended edition .. oh well ...


----------



## dzilizzi

borisb2 said:


> I'd rather wait 3 weeks if its going to be a game changer


But the intro price is over on the 16th. Unless they extend it. 

What kind of sales do they usually have around Black Friday. I bought Genesis a couple years ago on sale, but don't normally pay attention because their prices are a little higher than I've felt comfortable spending as a hobbyist. Just wondering if it gets close to intro prices or lower?


----------



## borisb2

dzilizzi said:


> But the intro price is over on the 16th. Unless they extend it.


I'm sure they extend it when needed. They announced 1.1 would be released before the intro period ends.

I think it can get back to (or close to) intro pricing during BF


----------



## dzilizzi

borisb2 said:


> I'm sure they extend it when needed. They announced 1.1 would be released before the intro period ends.
> 
> I think it can get back to (or close to) intro pricing during BF


That would be better for me. I can plan for it. Thanks!


----------



## novaburst

muziksculp said:


> What part of the library you like the most so far ?


The whole approach of the player gives you the ability to make the library sound and do what you want, with a bit of work, 

I did think AB was only going fo the sequence part of the library and leave the manual part for second best but I was very wrong they have put as much energy in making the library sound great as well as the osta, and runs and so on, 

It's a very rounded library but only if you dig in and that may not be for everyone,


----------



## novaburst

Batrawi said:


> It's really subjective.. but to me, if LASS is the definition of "gritty" then MSS is the definition of "fluffy"... I also find the sound in MSS a bit suffocated (with a pillow maybe because it sounds fluffy ) even with the close mics (my preferred mic position) but found that the default EQ helps it gain more "presence", so I tend to leave it always on from now on, which makes me want to explore the other eq presets more to see what they may offer but still don't have the time for that. In all cases, it still sounds brighter to me than something like CSS and its gentle/non-intrusive vibrato definitely lends itself to a much wider applications...


I think MSS has its own grittyness but I might be mistaken for what fluffy means, 

As MSS can be very aggressive if you want


----------



## Batrawi

novaburst said:


> I think MSS has its own grittyness but I might be mistaken for what fluffy means,


yes it has its own grittyness but it rather sounds like fizz/sparkles in the room as opposed to harsh/cutting knife as LASS can be.


----------



## Soundbed

Wunderhorn said:


> For those who already have MSS - and since it seems to be established that it does not sound very similar to LASS, to what other string libraries would you compare the sound?


For me it's turning into a bit of a chameleon.

MSS can't sound like every other library of course.

But as a toolbox it's turning out to be more versatile than I thought at first.

For instance, if you like "more vibrato" you could try playing with the soloists a bit.

The MSS soloists / first chair patches tend to have a more pronounced vibrato than the full sections. Of course they can play polyphonic legato (as mini ensembles) during the sketching process. (You can load them into the same instance on same MIDI channel, and play a MIDI keyboard.)

... I'm not sure how close these soloists can get to creating the effect of a whole library that has more vibrato; YMMV.

The Brightness control is pretty spot on for making MSS sound like brighter libraries in a snap.

The Detune and Humanization controls can help "spread" the intonation wider per divisi section, which makes MSS sound even more "lush" when desired, or conversely, less "straight" (i.e., when humanization is off, MSS sounds pretty "straight" so I'm learning to appreciate the humanization tuning controls).

Again this isn't to say that MSS can do everything for everyone in all cases ... only re-iterating that it's a deep library with lots of controls and flexibility.


----------



## Evans

Soundbed said:


> The Brightness control is pretty spot on for making MSS sound like brighter libraries in a snap.


Does Brightness actually make it sound "brighter" when turned up? Granted, I only ran through MSS for a short while, but my fading memory is telling me that Brightness all the way up was the same as it turned off.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Evans said:


> Does Brightness actually make it sound "brighter" when turned up? Granted, I only ran through MSS for a short while, but my fading memory is telling me that Brightness all the way up was the same as it turned off.


I can’t say for certain, but I wonder if this was addressed in the first update that rolled out (almost didn’t notice it, but it rolled out a day or so after release).

When first using the library, I was under this same impression. The demos I posted, then, used the brightness at ~5 o’clock to turn _down_ the brightness.

Well, opening it up yesterday for the briefest of moments, I discovered the behavior changed. Now it operates like one might initially think it would, where 12-noon is the default (off state).

That’s been my experience with it.


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina Out of curiosity, will the 1.1 update focus exclusively on legato, or will it also make other tweaks to the library, such as maybe the tone, default config/effects, presets, etc.?


----------



## BasariStudios

This Library amazes me more and more every day.


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> @dxmachina Out of curiosity, will the 1.1 update focus exclusively on legato, or will it also make other tweaks to the library, such as maybe the tone, default config/effects, presets, etc.?


I strongly suspect it will be a major update all around.


----------



## karender

I have some questions for those who own MSS, or the developers of course. I know these are not essentials and a lot of people don't care about these features but still, I wanted to ask. 

QUESTION 1:
Does MSS capable of legato transitions between articulations? 

Orchestral Tools' kontakt engine and SINE player can do this. I don't know how many people are using it, but I like that feature.

QUESTION 2:
Can we set the sample start delays of legatos, shorts, etc. to the same value? Maybe that look ahead button does this? I can't find any information about that.

Audio Imperia does this very well with a single knob to control sample start. I'm not sure this is useful for live playing, but it's really useful for programming midi.

QUESTION 3:
Is the dynamic range of tremolos and trills detailed enough for accented or shorts? Not the most used articulations, but I use them a lot with Berlin Strings.


If these are not possible with the current version you can take the first two questions as feature requests, together with Con Sordino emulation for the whole library.


----------



## novaburst

Batrawi said:


> but it rather sounds like fizz/sparkles


with out the sugar maybe  

I see what your saying


----------



## Soundbed

Evans said:


> Does Brightness actually make it sound "brighter" when turned up? Granted, I only ran through MSS for a short while, but my fading memory is telling me that Brightness all the way up was the same as it turned off.


Absolutely it makes it brighter. And darker when turned down. 


Duncan Krummel said:


> I can’t say for certain, but I wonder if this was addressed in the first update that rolled out (almost didn’t notice it, but it rolled out a day or so after release).
> 
> When first using the library, I was under this same impression. The demos I posted, then, used the brightness at ~5 o’clock to turn _down_ the brightness.
> 
> Well, opening it up yesterday for the briefest of moments, I discovered the behavior changed. Now it operates like one might initially think it would, where 12-noon is the default (off state).
> 
> That’s been my experience with it.


I only bought and downloaded after it had been out a couple days so I may have gotten the version where brightness starts at noon and changes the sound darker counterclockwise and brighter clockwise from the get go.


----------



## Soundbed

batwari said:


> but it rather sounds like fizz/sparkles





novaburst said:


> with out the sugar maybe
> 
> I see what your saying



I have no idea what he’s saying


----------



## Soundbed

borisb2 said:


> not at the computer at the moment - but I think in standard MSS one can only change the speed of portamento and Gliss, not the volume. Only for legato we have more control .. Am I wrong? will check later


The MSS transition *volume* dial affects the volume of all transition types: Leg, Port and Gliss.


borisb2 said:


> oh dang .. can you make a screenshot for proof?


Well the screenshot doesn't prove how it functions, haha


----------



## Casiquire

borisb2 said:


> oh dang .. can you make a screenshot for proof?
> 
> Didnt plan to buy the extended edition .. oh well ...


I'd love to but I'm actually having issues with the library. I hope to solve them tonight and if i do, I'll post something about them


----------



## dxmachina

> @dxmachina Out of curiosity, will the 1.1 update focus exclusively on legato, or will it also make other tweaks to the library, such as maybe the tone, default config/effects, presets, etc.?


Legato has been a large focus for sure, but 1.1 is not exclusively about legato. We have a number of other additions/changes/fixes as well. We are considering default state and presets as well.


----------



## Casiquire

dxmachina said:


> Legato has been a large focus for sure, but 1.1 is not exclusively about legato. We have a number of other additions/changes/fixes as well. We are considering default state and presets as well.


One quick note, the No Reverb No Effects option often seems to still leave some effects loaded, just disabled, and some convolution still active, but not audible. For the sake of extremely particular people like myself, is there a way to have those just remove absolutely everything? Lots of love, thanks!


----------



## dxmachina

@Casiquire Are you loading the "unprocessed" snapshots? Those should clear out the whole mixer in one shot.


----------



## Casiquire

dxmachina said:


> @Casiquire Are you loading the "unprocessed" snapshots? Those should clear out the whole mixer in one shot.


I'll take a look once i get my issues fixed up and let you know. Thanks!


----------



## dxmachina

You bet... actually it might make sense to have that available as a mixer preset as well since Snapshots overwrite all the instrument settings. I like going into my DAW completely dry as well, so I tend to load those snapshots first after loading a patch.


----------



## [email protected]

I am very excited about the update. Got both MSS-libraries on the first day but didn't have time to explore them much.

@DarthSouls One question: How do you make the pitch and the expression map articulation visible in the notes in the key editor? That's pretty neat!


----------



## Soundbed

I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" ... 



PS - I know I left the sound a little too bright for the 2nd half of this video, I would automate much much more if I was making a final version.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Soundbed said:


> I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" ...
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I know I left the sound a little too bright for the 2nd half of this video, I would automate much much more if I was making a final version.



Sounds great! A nice demo of where MSS can get to before getting into detailed programming. Thanks for sharing 👍


----------



## borisb2

Soundbed said:


> I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" ...
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I know I left the sound a little too bright for the 2nd half of this video, I would automate much much more if I was making a final version.



too "shushy" .. word of the day for me .. awesome video/tutorial


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" ...
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I know I left the sound a little too bright for the 2nd half of this video, I would automate much much more if I was making a final version.



You’re doing such a great job, you should be on a percentage for zhuzing up Mss. Thanks to you we can really start hearing what `MSS sounds like. Love the ott Zhuzy fx too.


----------



## BasariStudios

Soundbed said:


> I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" ...
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I know I left the sound a little too bright for the 2nd half of this video, I would automate much much more if I was making a final version.



Thanks Man! Sounds Epic!


----------



## Noeticus

Soundbed said:


> I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" ...
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I know I left the sound a little too bright for the 2nd half of this video, I would automate much much more if I was making a final version.



Thanks for showing again how great MSS is, and can be!


----------



## samplin

Soundbed said:


> I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" ...
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I know I left the sound a little too bright for the 2nd half of this video, I would automate much much more if I was making a final version.



Nice job! I've been playing with it for a few days and its great, I love it. I am able to get a good sounding arrangement out of the box. It's a good companion to LASS, and between the 2 I'll be set for a while. You're treatments/fxs work really well too.
I'm going to add mss to some older arrangements soon , and I'll post results when done.

m

Yes, I know about the Legato


----------



## novaburst

Hear is a little snippet i put together using all MSS called Sign of the times


----------



## Eptesicus

Soundbed said:


> I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" ...
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I know I left the sound a little too bright for the 2nd half of this video, I would automate much much more if I was making a final version.




Love the sound/tone that you are getting out of this. The string section sounds really nice and cohesive and pretty expressive too.

The transitions do still spoil it for me a little bit. It sounds fine with brass and percussion in the mix too to mask it, but the strings when exposed are let down a bit by the transitions in my opinion. Will be really interested to see what the upcoming update does for them.


----------



## stevenson-again

Soundbed said:


> I didn't take time to "perfect" this (and might not leave it up) but I wanted to share this so people could hear more of the library "in context" .


That's a great little video. Lovely music and great to hear some context for MSS.


----------



## molemac

Quick question, can you get a good close chamber sound just using smaller divisi with Mss ? Something like light L&Scs? Or is buy both ?


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> Quick question, can you get a good close chamber sound just using smaller divisi with Mss ? Something like light L&Scs? Or is buy both ?


I think you can get a close, "chamber" -like vibe from single divisi MSS sections. Especially with an MSS soloist helping provide detail for the section.

But I'm not sure what "light L&Scs" means. You mean LASS Lite and / or LASS Legato Sordino?


----------



## dzilizzi

Soundbed said:


> I think you can get a close, "chamber" -like vibe from single divisi MSS sections. Especially with an MSS soloist helping provide detail for the section.
> 
> But I'm not sure what "light L&Scs" means. You mean LASS Lite and / or LASS Legato Sordino?


Probably Light & Sound Chamber Strings?


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> I think you can get a close, "chamber" -like vibe from single divisi MSS sections. Especially with an MSS soloist helping provide detail for the section.
> 
> But I'm not sure what "light L&Scs" means. You mean LASS Lite and / or LASS Legato Sordino?


Sorry I meant light and sound chamber strings as opposed to Spitfire chamber strings which is too wet for me .


----------



## Evans

Was this mic test for MSS posted yet?


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> Sorry I meant light and sound chamber strings as opposed to Spitfire chamber strings which is too wet for me .


Ok I listened to some demos of Light and Sound (and I own Spitfire Chamber).

Well I danced around this when the same question came up in a Facebook group on Virtual Orchestration, so I'll dance around here a bit too, but with a few more days to articulate my thoughts.

_Preface: if anyone wants to "prove me wrong" on any of the below I'd be happy to hear it ... I'm going a bit out on a limb here with lots of words but these are just impressions, and I don't want to get in an argument. There might be an interesting discussion that evolves (or not) but I'm not trying to argue ... simply trying to put impressions and sensations and memories of sounds to words._

Here goes...

===

Personally I think of "chamber strings" as an aesthetic as much (or more than) a section size.

I might be in the minority, or I might be overthinking it.

But "Chamber Strings" to me connote a bit of elegance, there is also a bit of nostalgia implied, and there is a bit of romance attached. Even contemporary and 20th Century works for Chamber Orchestra (and Chamber Strings) that I know have tended to evolve compositionally, whilst keeping the aesthetic of the core artics of the string sounds themselves relatively unchanged (possibly introducing new techniques of course).

MSS can do Chamber _sizes_. MSS has a soloist to help with some vibrato and clarity. You can probably write for MSS with a Chamber aesthetic in mind.

But it comes back to the vibrato, for me. *There is not a "progressive" vibrato.* And there is not a molto vibrato. The vibrato controls don't really change what was recorded.

And the vibrato is still relatively minimal. To me, I don't get away from feeling like *MSS sounds like a divisi section instructed to play so they would blend well with a larger symphonic group*, playing with an understated vibrato.

~~~
When I add Spitfire's Solo Violin using the Progressive patch to MSS Violins 1a divisi, it sounds more like a "chamber" aesthetic to me.
~~~

When I then switch back to the MSS Solo Violin on top, I get thrown into what sounds more like ... I'm going say more of an earlier period ... not medieval technically, but I picture it sounding more like "early music". I recall the times of simpler monophonies and monks and earlier strings and I sort of want to hear a viola da gamba.

*OR I envision newer film scores!*

Stuff that is meant to blend in and disappear into the picture and immerse you in a comfortable world of cozy chords.

Many film scores these days use pretty simplistic harmonic shifts and tried-and-true progressions, and MSS is going to work really well for those, I think, in large part because it doesn't exactly call attention to itself. MSS doesn't say, "hey you! relax your mind and listen to me, I am hundreds of years of instrument craft and technique oozing character out of every drop of rosin!" No, it's going to be a scoring toolkit.

So yes it can definitely play Chamber _sized_ works. But if you are looking to create the romanticized type of "Chamber Strings" works I am describing -- whether I'm right or wrong or whatever they should be called instead -- then I'd say you should look to a product that advertises itself as a Chamber Strings sample set.

(PS - I'm telling myself it took less time to write all this out versus simply demonstrating it convincingly. Because I would have spent waaaay too much time trying to "prove" what I was saying for all the instrument groups and leveraging all my many strings packages and so on. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Maybe one day I'll make a video.)


----------



## Noeticus

Dear AudoBro,

Please add the option for heavy molto vibrato, and progressive vibrato to MSS at some point, please.


----------



## ism

Soundbed said:


> MSS doesn't say, "hey you! relax your mind and listen to me, I am hundreds of years of instrument craft and technique oozing character out of every drop of rosin!" No, it's going to be a scoring toolkit.


 Eloquently put. And I'd add that more conventional scoring string libraries address (interpellate if anyone's in to French philosophy) a listener even more actively, like saying: "hey you, this is how you're supposed to be feeling as the kind of modern romantic individual who experiences constant swells and denouements of emotion". 

Soaring strings (and to a lesser extend CSS) are so thoroughly optimized for this individualistic swell of individual emotion that it reminds me nothing so much as a basketball team. All about scoring the next point - always either soaring to the next emotional swell or preparing for it. Even the soft moments are brief denouements on the defensive before the next drive towards the basket.


----------



## Soundbed

ism said:


> Eloquently put. And I'd add that more conventional scoring string libraries address (interpellate if anyone's in to French philosophy) a listener even more actively, like saying: "hey you, this is how you're supposed to be feeling as the kind of modern romantic individual who experiences constant swells and denouements of emotion".
> 
> Soaring strings (and to a lesser extend CSS) are so thoroughly optimized for this individualistic swell of individual emotion that it reminds me nothing so much as a basketball team. All about scoring the next point - always either soaring to the next emotional swell or preparing for it. Even the soft moments are brief denouements on the defensive before the next drive towards the basket.


yes yes yes there's this whole other thing where there's swells of emotion in scoring. to some extent I think MSS does that as well (but in a slightly different and less romantic way?) but not while keeping what I'm calling the "chamber strings" aesthetic ... more of a "post Zimmer" scoring aesthetic? is that a thing? I am really going on a limb here, lol ...


----------



## ism

Soundbed said:


> yes yes yes there's this whole other thing where there's swells of emotion in scoring. to some extent I think MSS does that as well (but in a slightly different and less romantic way?) but not while keeping what I'm calling the "chamber strings" aesthetic ... more of a "post Zimmer" scoring aesthetic? is that a thing? I am really going on a limb here, lol ...


Yes - it's hard to talk about film music without some kind of romanticism, of course, but it's exactly right that different string libraries don't just have a different tone, they address the listener, ask the listener to be a different kind of listener depending on the style, with all the weight and resources of entire traditions of music, and the modes of human existence they were created to speak to.

I'm not sure I understand just exactly what the "modern" interpelative effect of MSS is (which is partly why it's so interesting). But one corner of it is that Sul tasto demos work well for a kind of "John Luthor Adams" feel - that is subjective response to experience of natural phenomena - but not a particularly intersubjective feeling. wheres the Sul tastos in OT Special Bows have different arcs and textures and dynamics that create a very, very different feeling, and the Sul tastos in Tundra a very different one again. I think there might be a post-romantic Zimmeresque corner also, though I can't say I understand that aesthetic at all (again, which is part of why MSS is so interesting, even though I'm probably not going to buy it anytime soon).

I'd argue that presence of your "chamber aesthetic" in SCS is a mix of a healthy sensibility of conventional filmic romanticism, but with just enough of a (very British one might say) restraint from the brashness of (CSS-like) high romanticism and toward a nuance of that evokes just a touch of classicism of the tradition of British Chamber music. Or perhaps more accurately, given the samples captured in SCS, it's possible to capture this aesthetic if that's what you're going for. You can try to force it to to and un-reconstructed CSS-esque high romanticism also, if that's your shtick.

All of which just goes to show that you really can't have too many string libraries. I really do love all of these aesthetics (if used in appropriate proportion).

And again, that MSS isn't trying to be CSS or LASS is to be celebrated.


----------



## Soundbed

ism said:


> Yes - it's hard to talk about film music without some kind of romanticism, of course, but it's exactly right that different string libraries don't just have a different tone, they address the listener, ask the listener to be a different kind of listener depending on the style, with all the weight and resources of entire traditions of music, and the modes of human existence they were created to speak to.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand just exactly what the "modern" interpelative effect of MSS is (which is partly why it's so interesting). But one corner of it is that Sul tasto demos work will for a kind of "John Luthor Adams" feel - that is subjective response to experience of natural phenomena. But not a particularly intersubjective feeling. wheres the Sul tastes in OT Special Bows have different arcs and textures and dynamics that create a very, very different feeling, and the Sul tastes in Tundra a very different one again. I think there might be a post-romantic Zimmeresque corner also, though I can't say I understand that aesthetic at all (again, which is part of why MSS is so interesting, even though I'm probably not going to buy it anytime soon).
> 
> I'd argue that presence of your "chamber aesthetic" in SCS is a mix a healthy sensibility of conventional filmic romanticism, but with just enough of a (very British one might say) restraint from the brashness of CSS' high romanticism and toward a nuance of that evokes just a touch of classicism of the tradition of British Chamber music. Or perhaps more accurately, given the samples captured in SCS, it's possible to capture this aesthetic if that's what you're going for. You can try to force it to to and un-reconstructed CSS-esque high romanticism also, if that's your shtick.
> 
> All of which just goes to show that you really can't have too many string libraries. I really do love all of these aesthetics (if used in appropriate proportion).
> 
> And again, that MSS isn't trying to be CSS or LASS is to be celebrated.


I love what you're saying here. And yes I'm glad you mentioned the British-ness of SCS because I agree it's an important point. (Tundra doesn't have the same.)

It's difficult to put our finger on it, possibly because we don't have the benefit of history yet, and possibly due to the whole "Why is Marvel music so forgettable?" phenomenon aka the temp score watering down the next score after the next until we get into a Clear Channel-like lowest common denominator aesthetic; one that no one finds offensive. (There's a lot to unpack there, sorry.)

I don't think this is a "bad" thing per se. I am a media composer.

~

What I've been avoiding saying in this thread, but I think I will say now, is that Trailer Strings by Musical Sampling -- with it's lack of strong vibrato and relatively "static" sustained tone, can sound comparable to MSS as well. I think some on this group would see that as a negative. But in my comparisons I can get them sounding remarkably similar at certain dynamic levels. (Out of the boxes, Trailer Strings really dives into more ffff's than MSS, but MSS might get closer with some saturation or harmonic excitation, to get MSS sounding like Trailer Strings at max.)


----------



## Soundbed

Decided to make a quick video after all. I edited it in Quicktime, lol.

Caveats: Some won't like the balance of soloists with ensemble, some won't like the idea of blending Lyndhurst AIR with the MSS room. Some won't like my mod wheel moves. Oh well. Because...

The purpose of the demo (in my mind) was to put sounds to words about the vibrato differences between Spitfire Soloists and MSS Soloists.

Secondarily, the instrument "definition" and "character" plays a part too. MSS is more understated relative to Spitfire Soloists, I think.

I'll add chapter marks later but basically its:


Violins (Spitfire Progressive Solo first over MSS, then MSS Solo)
Cellos (again Spitfire Solo first over MSS, then MSS Solo)
Violins & Cellos together, mix and match: watch the screen to see what was muted if it's not obvious by listening


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> Decided to make a quick video after all. I edited it in Quicktime, lol.
> 
> Caveats: Some won't like the balance of soloists with ensemble, some won't like the idea of blending Lyndhurst AIR with the MSS room. Some won't like my mod wheel moves. Oh well. Because...
> 
> The purpose of the demo (in my mind) was to put sounds to words about the vibrato differences between Spitfire Soloists and MSS Soloists.
> 
> Secondarily, the instrument "definition" and "character" plays a part too. MSS is more understated relative to Spitfire Soloists, I think.
> 
> I'll add chapter marks later but basically its:
> 
> 
> Violins (Spitfire Progressive Solo first over MSS, then MSS Solo)
> Cellos (again Spitfire Solo first over MSS, then MSS Solo)
> Violins & Cellos together, mix and match: watch the screen to see what was muted if it's not obvious by listening



Thanks for the experiment. If layering is the way to go then there are so many options its a bit of a minefield. It’s like creating your own string library. I sometimes layer 8 solo strings from different dry libraries like DSS does to create a more real sound as they all react differently to ccs etc to get a less synthy uniform sound. I think maybe we should just think of MSS as a more underscore paddy string base and add colour to taste from elsewhere ? It’s probably not ideal for smaller arrangements. Was that your conclusion ? Am tempted by Light and sound as its on 1/2 price sale only $150 but do I need it ? not really. So much string temptation around at the moment. You could easily spend over $1000 to add bits and pieces like con Motto, Mss,Tokyo etc or do you wait for Voyage and spend the $1000 in one go. I was always hoping MSS might put an end to endless library buying but I guess that’s wishfulthinking. ps thanks again for the ott and décapitator tip.


----------



## Minsky

Soundbed said:


> I wouldn’t say MSS has anything to do with LASS, other than being a different strings library from the same developer.
> 
> Edit - not trying to come off as confrontational — I don’t see a connection or any ”update” relationship between the two.


I spoke with andrew at audiobro. He was clear that MSS is a separate product to LASS, and that LASS3 is coming. So, you’re right.


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> Thanks for the experiment. If layering is the way to go then there are so many options its a bit of a minefield. It’s like creating your own string library. I sometimes layer 8 solo strings from different dry libraries like DSS does to create a more real sound as they all react differently to ccs etc to get a less synthy uniform sound. I think maybe we should just think of MSS as a more underscore paddy string base and add colour to taste from elsewhere ? It’s probably not ideal for smaller arrangements. Was that your conclusion ? Am tempted by Light and sound as its on 1/2 price sale only $150 but do I need it ? not really. So much string temptation around at the moment. You could easily spend over $1000 to add bits and pieces like con Motto, Mss,Tokyo etc or do you wait for Voyage and spend the $1000 in one go. I was always hoping MSS might put an end to endless library buying but I guess that’s wishfulthinking. ps thanks again for the ott and décapitator tip.


If you really want characterful chamber strings then I say get chamber strings.

There's also Insanity's NEO string quartet right now for 99 GPB. It's a bright (piercing even) collection of many articulations with a lot of "character".

~
np on the tips -- I usually use Sonnox Inflator but Decapitator works too, both add a bit of tape saturation feel.
~

I think MSS is fine as is, for what it is.

I am transcribing a segment of a cue from LUPIN right now, the French Netflix show. It's very chromatic writing. But the strings have minimal vibrato. That is the sound.

For that piece, MSS sounds much closer than CSS (for instance).

CSS sounds shaky and trembly ... MSS sounds more like the score they used in the Netflix show, and the strings in the show sound great. It's near the very end of episode 2, starting around 48:08 when the longer sustained strings come in.



Noeticus said:


> Dear AudoBro,
> 
> Please add the option for heavy molto vibrato, and progressive vibrato to MSS at some point, please.


I understand why you're asking this, but I don't think it's super "necessary" per se ... as I watch TV and movies these days it's not super typical to have molto vibrato or even progressive vibrato except in pieces that are emphatically ... vintage sounding, maybe? A lot of scored strings in shows and movies being made today are fairly straightforward-sounding, in terms of vibrato. Not all, but enough to make MSS just right, for a lot of real world applications.


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> If layering is the way to go then there are so many options its a bit of a minefield. It’s like creating your own string library.


So far, my all time favorite Violin 1 Legato patch is a layered Berlin Strings V1 Sul Tasto on top of SStS Pro Violin 2 Legato .. dont ask, but this sounds reeally nice, soft but agile, with enough detail 
For more lush I love the combo CSS V1, CS2 V1 and a bit of CSSS .. hard to beat as well
and a third contender would be L&SCS V1 on top of CSS V1

So yeah, layering is definitely the way to go .. at least for me



molemac said:


> I was always hoping MSS might put an end to endless library buying but I guess that’s wishfulthinking.


After MSS I decided to put an end to this myself - having enough string libraries now.. (yes, one can say that!  ) ... Voyage, Opus or whatever will come around the corner have to wait


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> If you really want characterful chamber strings then I say get chamber strings.
> 
> There's also Insanity's NEO string quartet right now for 99 GPB. It's a bright (piercing even) collection of many articulations with a lot of "character".
> 
> ~
> np on the tips -- I usually use Sonnox Inflator but Decapitator works too, both add a bit of tape saturation feel.
> ~
> 
> I think MSS is fine as is, for what it is.
> 
> I am transcribing a segment of a cue from LUPIN right now, the French Netflix show. It's very chromatic writing. But the strings have minimal vibrato. That is the sound.
> 
> For that piece, MSS sounds much closer than CSS (for instance).
> 
> CSS sounds shaky and trembly ... MSS sounds more like the score they used in the Netflix show, and the strings in the show sound great. It's near the very end of episode 2, starting around 48:08 when the longer sustained strings come in.
> 
> 
> I understand why you're asking this, but I don't think it's super "necessary" per se ... as I watch TV and movies these days it's not super typical to have molto vibrato or even progressive vibrato except in pieces that are emphatically ... vintage sounding, maybe? A lot of scored strings in shows and movies being made today are fairly straightforward-sounding, in terms of vibrato. Not all, but enough to make MSS just right, for a lot of real world applications.


I can see both sides of this. It would be great to have the option of molto vibrato. I think it would add a layer of ability to the library as a whole. But on the other hand i see your point too and i think the whole reception to this library has been a case of everyone missing the point


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> and i think the whole reception to this library has been a case of everyone missing the point



Yep.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Evans said:


> Yep.


Why the update then?

It's sounds much better in these last user demos btw.


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Why the update then?
> 
> It's sounds much better in these last user demos btw.


Because it's good business to cater to your market, even if they don't get what you're trying to do


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> Because it's good business to cater to your market, even if they don't get what you're trying to do


Or maybe there are things that needed to be fix.


----------



## ism

Casiquire said:


> I can see both sides of this. It would be great to have the option of molto vibrato. I think it would add a layer of ability to the library as a whole. But on the other hand i see your point too and i think the whole reception to this library has been a case of everyone missing the point



I mean seriously though, if it’s not CSS. Then why bother?


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Or maybe there are things that needed to be fix.


Playing with lower vibrato isn't a bug that needs fixing. It's a style of playing. If we were talking about a hiss or noisy samples I'd agree with you, though my impression is that such issues of quality are much less of a concern in these forums than a library recorded outside of a very narrow range of playing styles.


----------



## Soundbed

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Why the update then?
> 
> It's sounds much better in these last user demos btw.


The update is for the legato (mostly) I think.

The vibrato is a different topic.


Casiquire said:


> I can see both sides of this. It would be great to have the option of molto vibrato. I think it would add a layer of ability to the library as a whole.


You're right of course.

~

I've got another demo cooking of that LUPIN cue excerpt I was mentioning, and it's another context (in addition to what I shared with the Silvestri Avengers cue excerpt before) where this amount of vibrato is "enough" IMHO.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> So far, my all time favorite Violin 1 Legato patch is a layered Berlin Strings V1 Sul Tasto on top of SStS Pro Violin 2 Legato .. dont ask, but this sounds reeally nice, soft but agile, with enough detail
> For more lush I love the combo CSS V1, CS2 V1 and a bit of CSSS .. hard to beat as well
> and a third contender would be L&SCS V1 on top of CSS V1
> 
> So yeah, layering is definitely the way to go .. at least for me


Any chance of a quick demo


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> Any chance of a quick demo


hmm .. sure .. hold the line please


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Casiquire said:


> Playing with lower vibrato isn't a bug that needs fixing. It's a style of playing. If we were talking about a hiss or noisy samples I'd agree with you, though my impression is that such issues of quality are much less of a concern in these forums than a library recorded outside of a very narrow range of playing styles.


I'm not sure why you're telling me this since i have no issue with the vibrato. In fact i think it works perfectly in the example posted by Batrawi on the page below. It crossfade very smoothly from NV to vibrato and is very effective. Plus he improved the legato transition a lot. 





__





MSS: LEGATO ONLY Discussion/Contributions


I convinced her that I'm buying a ring... That sure does look like "that ring". I think I'm being drawn towards it...




vi-control.net


----------



## Casiquire

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> I'm not sure why you're telling me this since i have no issue with the vibrato. In fact i think it works perfectly in the example posted by Batrawi on the page below. It crossfade very smoothly from NV to vibrato and is very effective. Plus he improved the legato transition a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS: LEGATO ONLY Discussion/Contributions
> 
> 
> I convinced her that I'm buying a ring... That sure does look like "that ring". I think I'm being drawn towards it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Because all my comments were in the context of the vibrato, but i do agree with you that there are improvements that can be made to the legato.


----------



## mojamusic

Casiquire said:


> I love the tone of it as expected, but it sounds like they're drunk. I think they are playing the entire thing with sped up legatos like I've been doing, but they overshot and now the transitions are TOO slow. The sound itself is great though. I just would've sped that port up even more


Beautiful composition. MSS is sounding very natural (not synthetic) in this demo


----------



## al_net77

Sorry to ask but I'm been busy and I lost the thread, that is quite long... Could you make a summary of the state/opinions of MSS? Thanks!


----------



## Noc

al_net77 said:


> Sorry to ask but I'm been busy and I lost the thread, that is quite long... Could you make a summary of the state/opinions of MSS? Thanks!


Opinions are divided. There’s universal applause for the size and scope of the library and its list of features, level of control, and plethora of articulations, but many aren’t happy with the tone (sounds kinda boxy/stuffy, like it was recorded in a small room, which is somewhat improved by removing the default reverbs/IRs) and the legato transitions (notes seem to fade into each other rather than flow). However, Audiobro have been admirably responsive and a major update is in the works, said to address the legatos especially but other things as well, and is expected in maybe a week or two (no hard date). Audiobro have also said they’d extend the current intro pricing to accommodate the update.


----------



## al_net77

Noc said:


> Opinions are divided. There’s universal applause for the size and scope of the library and its list of features, level of control, and plethora of articulations, but many aren’t happy with the tone (sounds kinda boxy/stuffy, like it was recorded in a small room, which is somewhat improved by removing the default reverbs/IRs) and the legato transitions (notes seem to fade into each other rather than flow). However, Audiobro have been admirably responsive and a major update is in the works, said to address the legatos especially but other things as well, and is expected in maybe a week or two (no hard date). Audiobro have also said they’d extend the current intro pricing to accommodate the update.


Thank you very much, this is what I needed.


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> Any chance of a quick demo


here you go - improvised and recorded a quick phrase. Tweaked then all notes and CC-curve for every version/library - raw sound, no reverb - just a bit piano for harmonic context
1. Berlin Strings Sul Tasto + SStS Pro Violin2 (6) (Tree + Close1 for SStS)
I really like that combo - also prefer Violin 2 in SStS as it has a bit more edge, giving the smooth BS Sul Tasto a lot of detail
2. Berlin Strings Main Adaptive Legato (Tree + ConcertMaster)
3. CSS (+ CSSS) (Tree + a bit Close)
4. CSS + CS2 (+ CSSS) (Tree + a bit Close)
5. BBC SO (Core)
6. MSS (incl PP-trick) (Stage + a bit Close)

maybe the melody is a bit sad


----------



## Soundbed

borisb2 said:


> here you go - improvised and recorded a quick phrase. Tweaked then all notes and CC-curve for every version/library - raw sound, no reverb - just a bit piano for harmonic context
> 1. Berlin Strings Sul Tasto + SStS Pro Violin 2 (V2 has more edge than V1 in SStS)
> 2. Berlin Strings Main Adaptive Legato
> 3. CSS (+ CSSS)
> 4. CSS + CS2 (+ CSSS)
> 5. BBC SO (Core)
> 6. MSS (incl PP-trick)
> 
> maybe the melody is a bit sad


I like #1 the best, fwiw


----------



## Soundbed

Ok I'm not sure what people will think of this....

I approached it as a way how MSS vibrato would sound in context of a 'modern scoring' piece airing in 2021.

Because when I heard the cue on my TV I thought it sounded like relatively little vibrato was used. I got more than I bargained for when I tried to recreate it, and I'm not 100% delighted with my results ... including but not limited to: my attempts at transcribing a piece that has some slightly tricky chromatic shifts.



0:00 Talking
3:49 My attempt with MSS & external FX 
5:27 TV Version (no spoilers intended) 
6:38 Soundtrack version with Solo Violin 
8:55 Explanation of my attempt & FX 
17:31 No melody (bottom 3 voices) 
20:18 My attempt w/MSS again (w/EQ and FX) 
21:43 My attempt w/MSS - Reverb only


----------



## Evans

borisb2 said:


> here you go - improvised and recorded a quick phrase. Tweaked then all notes and CC-curve for every version/library - raw sound, no reverb - just a bit piano for harmonic context
> 1. Berlin Strings Sul Tasto + SStS Pro Violin 2 (V2 has more edge than V1 in SStS)
> 2. Berlin Strings Main Adaptive Legato
> 3. CSS (+ CSSS)
> 4. CSS + CS2 (+ CSSS)
> 5. BBC SO (Core)
> 6. MSS (incl PP-trick)
> 
> maybe the melody is a bit sad


Tough one, but I think #2 is my favorite. It very well could be that I already know that #1 uses two separate libraries, but my ears are telling me that I hear two different libraries.

I like #2 because it feels more alive without getting into the occasional extreme that something like CSS or Vista can hit ("press key for emotion").

With that said, there's _no way _I'd pick such a "layered library" thing out were this on my TV's soundbar or my earbuds I wear when exercising. Not a chance. This is a case of extreme nitpicking.

Thank you for posting this. MSS shows some potential. Good stuff!


----------



## borisb2

Evans said:


> Thank you for posting this. MSS shows some potential. Good stuff!


I also like MSS here - a bit darker but shows potential .. I'm sure embedded in a propper string arrangement it could sound really nice


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> here you go - improvised and recorded a quick phrase. Tweaked then all notes and CC-curve for every version/library - raw sound, no reverb - just a bit piano for harmonic context
> 1. Berlin Strings Sul Tasto + SStS Pro Violin2 (6) (Tree + Close1 for SStS)
> I really like that combo - also prefer Violin 2 in SStS as it has a bit more edge, giving the smooth BS Sul Tasto a lot of detail
> 2. Berlin Strings Main Adaptive Legato (Tree + ConcertMaster)
> 3. CSS (+ CSSS) (Tree + a bit Close)
> 4. CSS + CS2 (+ CSSS) (Tree + a bit Close)
> 5. BBC SO (Core)
> 6. MSS (incl PP-trick) (Stage + a bit Close)
> 
> maybe the melody is a bit sad


Thanks. I think I prefer 1 too but actually MSS sounded pretty good too. Might send you back a version with a made up section of solo violins if I think it sounds better.(or different in a chamber way anyway)


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> Ok I'm not sure what people will think of this....
> 
> I approached it as a way how MSS vibrato would sound in context of a 'modern scoring' piece airing in 2021.
> 
> Because when I heard the cue on my TV I thought it sounded like relatively little vibrato was used. I got more than I bargained for when I tried to recreate it, and I'm not 100% delighted with my results ... including but not limited to: my attempts at transcribing a piece that has some slightly tricky chromatic shifts.
> 
> 
> 
> 0:00 Talking
> 3:49 My attempt with MSS & external FX
> 5:27 TV Version (no spoilers intended)
> 6:38 Soundtrack version with Solo Violin
> 8:55 Explanation of my attempt & FX
> 17:31 No melody (bottom 3 voices)
> 20:18 My attempt w/MSS again (w/EQ and FX)
> 21:43 My attempt w/MSS - Reverb only



Good work , I think I prefer the very last version without any saturation fx etc. Just listening on IPad though, the previous versions sounded a little harsh , like it needed more vib.


----------



## SquirrelMan

Bought it the day it came out and I'm pretty happy both with the library and the sound. I also have CSS and SCS. They all have their uses. Been using it for underscore and pop songs and having success with both. Maybe people overthink things? I just buy stuff, buckle down and get back to work because I don't have a lot of time to play around - just deadlines to meet.

I just got tapped to score a psychological thriller and I'm really excited to dig in more into the detuning and all the aleatoric stuff. I have a feeling I'm gonna be very grateful with the timing of the release this library and landing this gig.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Ok I'm not sure what people will think of this....
> 
> I approached it as a way how MSS vibrato would sound in context of a 'modern scoring' piece airing in 2021.
> 
> Because when I heard the cue on my TV I thought it sounded like relatively little vibrato was used. I got more than I bargained for when I tried to recreate it, and I'm not 100% delighted with my results ... including but not limited to: my attempts at transcribing a piece that has some slightly tricky chromatic shifts.
> 
> 
> 
> 0:00 Talking
> 3:49 My attempt with MSS & external FX
> 5:27 TV Version (no spoilers intended)
> 6:38 Soundtrack version with Solo Violin
> 8:55 Explanation of my attempt & FX
> 17:31 No melody (bottom 3 voices)
> 20:18 My attempt w/MSS again (w/EQ and FX)
> 21:43 My attempt w/MSS - Reverb only



Well done. I personally think the TV version sounds the best though, tonally. For some reason, MSS's tone is not quite clicking with me here, even with your EQ attempts. There's this overly strident quality that exists in LASS as well.


----------



## molemac

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well done. I personally think the TV version sounds the best though, tonally. For some reason, MSS's tone is not quite clicking with me here, even with your EQ attempts. There's this overly strident quality that exists in LASS as well.


+ sounds like it could benefit from some missing harmonies so the bass doesnt sound so exposed and strident ?


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> here you go - improvised and recorded a quick phrase. Tweaked then all notes and CC-curve for every version/library - raw sound, no reverb - just a bit piano for harmonic context
> 1. Berlin Strings Sul Tasto + SStS Pro Violin2 (6) (Tree + Close1 for SStS)
> I really like that combo - also prefer Violin 2 in SStS as it has a bit more edge, giving the smooth BS Sul Tasto a lot of detail
> 2. Berlin Strings Main Adaptive Legato (Tree + ConcertMaster)
> 3. CSS (+ CSSS) (Tree + a bit Close)
> 4. CSS + CS2 (+ CSSS) (Tree + a bit Close)
> 5. BBC SO (Core)
> 6. MSS (incl PP-trick) (Stage + a bit Close)
> 
> maybe the melody is a bit sad



I had a go at emulating your test. Be prepared for a surprise at the end.
The idea is to show what you can do with creating your own sections with solo libraries which I hope helps create more definition and less synthy sounding, (more variation of tone) particularly in divisi writing. In the hope of sounding more realistic.

1. SCS close mikes as chamber comparison using a chamber library (IMo not very nice) 
2. My Unify solo 5 violins patch ( performance sea violin, Spitfire artisan, sarconni , berlin chair 2nd violin and joshua bell.(dry no eq or anything )
3. Your Berlin Strings Sul Tasto + SStS Pro Violin2 
4. CSS +my solo violins 
5. your tune arranged for chamber strings.( using solo violins patch, DSS for 2nds , Dss violas , Lass cello, and CSS for high strings. +bit of altiverb and lex.

View attachment Legato test solovioloins.mp3


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> I had a go at emulating your test. Be prepared for a surprise at the end.
> The idea is to show what you can do with creating your own sections with solo libraries which I hope helps create more definition and less synthy sounding, (more variation of tone) particularly in divisi writing. In the hope of sounding more realistic.
> 
> 1. SCS close mikes as chamber comparison using a chamber library (IMo not very nice)
> 2. My Unify solo 5 violins patch ( performance sea violin, Spitfire artisan, sarconni , berlin chair 2nd violin and joshua bell.(dry no eq or anything )
> 3. Your Berlin Strings Sul Tasto + SStS Pro Violin2
> 4. CSS +my solo violins
> 5. your tune arranged for chamber strings.( using solo violins patch, DSS for 2nds , Dss violas , Lass cello, and CSS for high strings. +bit of altiverb and lex.
> 
> View attachment Legato test solovioloins.mp3


Very interesting tests. Thanks for that. I really like the tone in the version with CSS and solo violins.. what exactly means “your solo violins”?

Also like the idea of arranging that for chamber strings 👍👍 nice to hear that. Maybe I should try that with MSS


----------



## Alex Niedt

Evans said:


> Tough one, but I think #2 is my favorite. It very well could be that I already know that #1 uses two separate libraries, but my ears are telling me that I hear two different libraries.


Agreed. #1 took me right out of the music, and #2 felt so natural and musical in contrast afterward.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> Very interesting tests. Thanks for that. I really like the tone in the version with CSS and solo violins.. what exactly means “your solo violins”?
> 
> Also like the idea of arranging that for chamber strings 👍👍 nice to hear that. Maybe I should try that with MSS


The solo violins is just the combination of 5 solo violins from different libraries all on one midi track in Unify. Be good to hear the MSS version . If I buy it I will add the first chair to the 5 violions , I think it might work well, or use it with one of the divisi section to create a 2nd violin patch


----------



## FKVStudio

Another demo that I have found out there.


----------



## onfireee

Apologies if this has been asked already given the length of this thread... Has anyone done any MSS vs LASS direct video comparisons? Audiobro told me that the upcoming LASS 3 will only be a UI and Engine update, which i am totally stoked on... But do I need MSS too? haha.


----------



## DarthSouls

[email protected] said:


> I am very excited about the update. Got both MSS-libraries on the first day but didn't have time to explore them much.
> 
> @DarthSouls One question: How do you make the pitch and the expression map articulation visible in the notes in the key editor? That's pretty neat!


If your *Attribute* Expression Map has a description for the articulation, it automatically becomes the 'text'. And then it's simply a matter of zooming out. (You may need to fiddle a bit in the settings to get that right for your your screen setup).


----------



## dxmachina

Any Studio One 5.2 users here who own MSS?


----------



## Denkii

dxmachina said:


> Any Studio One 5.2 users here who own MSS?


yes. How may I be of your service?


----------



## dxmachina

@Denkii We'll be supporting the new Sound Varations feature and hoping to have a few people test drive. If interested shoot me a PM.


----------



## Noeticus

dxmachina said:


> Any Studio One 5.2 users here who own MSS?


Yes, indeed.... but I really don't know what I am doing compared to those who are well versed in 5.2 etc.


----------



## Denkii

@dxmachina for the best feedback, you will probably also want to hit up @Soundbed


----------



## molemac

@dxmachina 
How’s 1.1 coming along. I would like to buy MSS but might as well wait for the update so I dont need to install twice.


----------



## dxmachina

Thanks folks!

@molemac Very well, thanks! We've been testing and refining, testing and refining. Not sure the actual release date yet, but getting close now.


----------



## ChristianM

dxmachina said:


> Thanks folks!
> 
> @molemac Very well, thanks! We've been testing and refining, testing and refining. Not sure the actual release date yet, but getting close now.


courage


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well done. I personally think the TV version sounds the best though, tonally. For some reason, MSS's tone is not quite clicking with me here, even with your EQ attempts. There's this overly strident quality that exists in LASS as well.


I like the tv version best too, it “sings” without being too trebly.


molemac said:


> + sounds like it could benefit from some missing harmonies so the bass doesnt sound so exposed and strident ?


I added a couple extra octaves I wasn’t hearing, to fill in a couple middle harmony places but I was trying to find those middle harmonies for sure. I wonder what the true sordino bass would sound like. The exposed bass esp in the opening was pretty difficult to tame while keeping the sub and deep low end big ... I might try Ark 2 low strings for this particular part someday.


----------



## Soundbed

Denkii said:


> @dxmachina for the best feedback, you will probably also want to hit up @Soundbed


The earliest I could install 5.2 will be this weekend. Need to deliver ten tracks for an album on Friday using S1 v4.x


----------



## BasariStudios

Hello?


----------



## soulofsound

BasariStudios said:


> Hello?


----------



## borisb2

BasariStudios said:


> Hello?


Is it me you’re looking for?


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> Is it me you’re looking for?


Are you somewhere feeling lonely ?


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Just gonna pile on some thoughts since I think some of the other reviews here are kind of overly negative. These are just impressions from playing with it (with their reverb off) and thinking ahead to server integration. I've yet to mock anything up but:

Sat with this library for the first time tonight and I have to say I am really impressed by the thought and detail that has gone into EVERYTHING.

From the degree of sampling to the articulation switching and controls for those of us who hate looking at UIs.

Well done Andrew and Sebastian. I personally feel justified in the expense. So thank you.

There are some scripting growing pains here, but I'm sure they'll be overcome. Libraries release updates and patches, this always happens with a big release (with software in general) where users find things the coders and testers didn't. People seem to take it personally like they were cheated out of their cash but it's like... that's how it has always worked. BBCSO release already forgotten? Hell I think SF is STILL releasing fixes for chamber strings! Anyway...

The divisi can get wonky-- I've experienced some phasing here and there, as well the engine not playing a note because it seems to not know which voice to release? Not something that can't be overcome with programming vs playing. And I'm personally getting enough hanging notes forcing me to hit the panic button in Kontakt that I'm a little nervous about how this is going to perform on a real mock-up, however that's me hamfisting a patch on a keyboard in a way I would never write with it.

I recall some people mentioning the vibrato elsewhere, I'm kind of glad it doesn't go as hard as CSS, that vib gets a little dramatic for me at times.

***I would also almost prefer the attack mods (Cres/Norm/Acc) were on switches personally but not a big deal.*** EDIT: Just to say that they actually DID put these on switches. I'm telling you guys, they thought of everything. 

The Ostinatos are potentially cool, I kind of wish they worked like the ostinato tool for the shorts so you could get more interesting phrases; I think with some clever programming between the up and down patters it's possible to get cooler patterns sounding smoother so just a first impression there.

One of the main reasons I bought it was the scales patches and while it's a little more programming than I anticipated to get it sounding nice for my current use case, it's still promising and useful. The scale patch can be used to create some pretty quick easy ostinati as well, especially if you can switch off between Vlns 1 and 2 for the pattern to get less obvious reptition.

I don't see myself using the upper range of these Cellos, but the low and middle of the staff is great, good tone and playability overall. The ostinato patch sounds particularly good on these IMO. The tail is a taaaad weak but with something else just to fill in the gap, real nice. like *really* nice. if someone other than a few pro mockup artists i know could program something in another library that sounded even close to these i'd be pretty blown away.

The solo cello is a little more tolerable in the upper range but I'm not sure it does something CSSS doesn't already do for me-- except for the scales patches which is great, and on some articulations the samples themselves might actually sound better once programmed. if you don't own CSSS then this could be a nice bonus coverage for you.

I'll lastly also say since this is my first AudioBro library-- I just never wanted LASS-- the customer service here is above and beyond. Been getting questions/issues answered by Andrew via email all weekend. So while I'm not surprised to see certain people in this thread I've seen elsewhere always talking sh*t, I think some of the harshness is kind of unwarranted and since an update is coming to at least be a little patient and see how that plays out. This thing is pretty deep and there's plenty of great bits that work very well to keep you at bay for now if you own even one other popular string library.


----------



## BasariStudios

borisb2 said:


> Is it me you’re looking for?


No. To my self. Actually i should listen to the song.


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> Are you somewhere feeling lonely ?


Smoking in my car.


----------



## samplin

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> Just gonna pile on some thoughts since I think some of the other reviews here are kind of overly negative. These are just impressions from playing with it (with their reverb off) and thinking ahead to server integration. I've yet to mock anything up but:
> 
> Sat with this library for the first time tonight and I have to say I am really impressed by the thought and detail that has gone into EVERYTHING.
> 
> From the degree of sampling to the articulation switching and controls for those of us who hate looking at UIs.
> 
> Well done Andrew and Sebastian. I personally feel justified in the expense. So thank you.
> 
> There are some scripting growing pains here, but I'm sure they'll be overcome. Libraries release updates and patches, this always happens with a big release (with software in general) where users find things the coders and testers didn't. People seem to take it personally like they were cheated out of their cash but it's like... that's how it has always worked. BBCSO release already forgotten? Hell I think SF is STILL releasing fixes for chamber strings! Anyway...
> 
> The divisi can get wonky-- I've experienced some phasing here and there, as well the engine not playing a note because it seems to not know which voice to release? Not something that can't be overcome with programming vs playing. And I'm personally getting enough hanging notes forcing me to hit the panic button in Kontakt that I'm a little nervous about how this is going to perform on a real mock-up, however that's me hamfisting a patch on a keyboard in a way I would never write with it.
> 
> I recall some people mentioning the vibrato elsewhere, I'm kind of glad it doesn't go as hard as CSS, that vib gets a little dramatic for me at times.
> 
> I would also almost prefer the attack mods (Cres/Norm/Acc) were on switches personally but not a big deal.
> 
> The Ostinatos are potentially cool, I kind of wish they worked like the ostinato tool for the shorts so you could get more interesting phrases; I think with some clever programming between the up and down patters it's possible to get cooler patterns sounding smoother so just a first impression there.
> 
> One of the main reasons I bought it was the scales patches and while it's a little more programming than I anticipated to get it sounding nice for my current use case, it's still promising and useful. The scale patch can be used to create some pretty quick easy ostinati as well, especially if you can switch off between Vlns 1 and 2 for the pattern to get less obvious reptition.
> 
> I don't see myself using the upper range of these Cellos, but the low and middle of the staff is great, good tone and playability overall. The ostinato patch sounds particularly good on these IMO. The tail is a taaaad weak but with something else just to fill in the gap, real nice. like *really* nice. if someone other than a few pro mockup artists i know could program something in another library that sounded even close to these i'd be pretty blown away.
> 
> The solo cello is a little more tolerable in the upper range but I'm not sure it does something CSSS doesn't already do for me-- except for the scales patches which is great, and on some articulations the samples themselves might actually sound better once programmed. if you don't own CSSS then this could be a nice bonus coverage for you.
> 
> I'll lastly also say since this is my first AudioBro library-- I just never wanted LASS-- the customer service here is above and beyond. Been getting questions/issues answered by Andrew via email all weekend. So while I'm not surprised to see certain people in this thread I've seen elsewhere always talking sh*t, I think some of the harshness is kind of unwarranted and since an update is coming to at least be a little patient and see how that plays out. This thing is pretty deep and there's plenty of great bits that work very well to keep you at bay for now if you own even one other popular string library.


Good all round assessment, Thankyou. I've also owned it for a week or so , but haven't yet delved into it beyond setting it up in my template and playing through the sounds and settings. I have had LASS for many years and is still my "go to" string library an I think MSS will compliment it really well. I think most of the negative comments are by people who want it to be a certain way, or want the one string library to do everything. I don't think this is possible , certainly with tech where it is ay the moment, because strings (solo or ensemble) have such a range of sound, articulations and colors, that to get all of that out of the box isn't realistic. It is called Modern Scoring strings and so I believe it is meant for contemporary film scoring. This it does very well and also offers much more. I'm looking forward to the update.


----------



## Casiquire

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> Just gonna pile on some thoughts since I think some of the other reviews here are kind of overly negative. These are just impressions from playing with it (with their reverb off) and thinking ahead to server integration. I've yet to mock anything up but:
> 
> Sat with this library for the first time tonight and I have to say I am really impressed by the thought and detail that has gone into EVERYTHING.
> 
> From the degree of sampling to the articulation switching and controls for those of us who hate looking at UIs.
> 
> Well done Andrew and Sebastian. I personally feel justified in the expense. So thank you.
> 
> There are some scripting growing pains here, but I'm sure they'll be overcome. Libraries release updates and patches, this always happens with a big release (with software in general) where users find things the coders and testers didn't. People seem to take it personally like they were cheated out of their cash but it's like... that's how it has always worked. BBCSO release already forgotten? Hell I think SF is STILL releasing fixes for chamber strings! Anyway...
> 
> The divisi can get wonky-- I've experienced some phasing here and there, as well the engine not playing a note because it seems to not know which voice to release? Not something that can't be overcome with programming vs playing. And I'm personally getting enough hanging notes forcing me to hit the panic button in Kontakt that I'm a little nervous about how this is going to perform on a real mock-up, however that's me hamfisting a patch on a keyboard in a way I would never write with it.
> 
> I recall some people mentioning the vibrato elsewhere, I'm kind of glad it doesn't go as hard as CSS, that vib gets a little dramatic for me at times.
> 
> I would also almost prefer the attack mods (Cres/Norm/Acc) were on switches personally but not a big deal.
> 
> The Ostinatos are potentially cool, I kind of wish they worked like the ostinato tool for the shorts so you could get more interesting phrases; I think with some clever programming between the up and down patters it's possible to get cooler patterns sounding smoother so just a first impression there.
> 
> One of the main reasons I bought it was the scales patches and while it's a little more programming than I anticipated to get it sounding nice for my current use case, it's still promising and useful. The scale patch can be used to create some pretty quick easy ostinati as well, especially if you can switch off between Vlns 1 and 2 for the pattern to get less obvious reptition.
> 
> I don't see myself using the upper range of these Cellos, but the low and middle of the staff is great, good tone and playability overall. The ostinato patch sounds particularly good on these IMO. The tail is a taaaad weak but with something else just to fill in the gap, real nice. like *really* nice. if someone other than a few pro mockup artists i know could program something in another library that sounded even close to these i'd be pretty blown away.
> 
> The solo cello is a little more tolerable in the upper range but I'm not sure it does something CSSS doesn't already do for me-- except for the scales patches which is great, and on some articulations the samples themselves might actually sound better once programmed. if you don't own CSSS then this could be a nice bonus coverage for you.
> 
> I'll lastly also say since this is my first AudioBro library-- I just never wanted LASS-- the customer service here is above and beyond. Been getting questions/issues answered by Andrew via email all weekend. So while I'm not surprised to see certain people in this thread I've seen elsewhere always talking sh*t, I think some of the harshness is kind of unwarranted and since an update is coming to at least be a little patient and see how that plays out. This thing is pretty deep and there's plenty of great bits that work very well to keep you at bay for now if you own even one other popular string library.


I have to agree. The support offered for LASS for so long, going through multiple major updates and now about to be two huge UI overhauls, should in itself be a good sign of what they're capable of, what their standards are, and their respect for their customers


----------



## molemac

H


BasariStudios said:


> Smoking in my car.


Hiding from the wife again I see, did she find your MSS receipt?


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> H
> 
> Hiding from the wife again I see, did she find your MSS receipt?


Actually she bought it for me for my birthday.
She knew it was 550 and she agreed...she did 
not wanna be bothered with purchasing and 
stuff so she gave me her card...and i wend on full.
Now i need to find a way what to say when she
sees the statement of what went on.


----------



## BasariStudios

I wonder if we can already start putting MSS into our Templates
or wait for the Update? Is it gonna be the same Patches we have
updated so the DAW can recognize them or all brand new Patches?
I don't wanna end up building now and then rebuilding again.


----------



## dzilizzi

BasariStudios said:


> I wonder if we can already start putting MSS into our Templates
> or wait for the Update? Is it gonna be the same Patches we have
> updated so the DAW can recognize them or all brand new Patches?
> I don't wanna end up building now and then rebuilding again.


If you put it in your template, the patches will be all new. If you don't put it in your template, there will only be changes to the programming that won't affect the patches. 

This is Murphy's Law. Or at least a corollary of it.


----------



## GingerMaestro

dzilizzi said:


> If you put it in your template, the patches will be all new. If you don't put it in your template, there will only be changes to the programming that won't affect the patches.
> 
> This is Murphy's Law. Or at least a corollary of it.


Hopefully not to long now...they were estimating two weeks or so, two weeks ago..although these things often have unexpected delays It seems...


----------



## dzilizzi

GingerMaestro said:


> Hopefully not to long now...they were estimating two weeks or so, two weeks ago..although these things often have unexpected delays It seems...


I'm hoping for another week. I may buy it then.


----------



## molemac

dzilizzi said:


> I'm hoping for another week. I may buy it then.


Just asked the question on audiobro forum, so we might know soon.


----------



## dzilizzi

molemac said:


> Just asked the question on audiobro forum, so we might know soon.


The guy said they were beta testing it last week. So it should be done soon.


----------



## molemac

dzilizzi said:


> The guy said they were beta testing it last week. So it should be done soon.


Got a next week reply ( but dont hold me or them to it)


----------



## dzilizzi

molemac said:


> Got a next week reply ( but dont hold me or them to it)


Next week or so works for me as long as they keep the discounted price.


----------



## dhowarthmusic

Anybody out there who is wondering how expressive Modern Scoring Strings can be I made a mockup of some Rachmaninov using just the intuition patches which I think are very smooth compared to the out of the box legatos. This is using just the mix mics and a bit of my own reverb.


----------



## cnogradi

For those still eyeing getting MSS at intro price:



> Thanks for your interest in Modern Scoring Strings.
> 
> We haven’t yet announced an end date for the introductory pricing. Right now we’re working on wrapping up the first update (1.1) to Modern Scoring Strings and will definitely keep pricing in place for a couple weeks after that comes out. So I’d guess we’ll be at the current pricing into early April, but we’ll definitely announce the end date once it has been decided.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Sebastian Katz


----------



## dzilizzi

cnogradi said:


> For those still eyeing getting MSS at intro price:


They said here that they would keep it open for a brief time after the update since the update is supposed to fix the legato issue.


----------



## alcorey

Wow, things have gotten really quiet on all MSS threads....I've read them all. I'm a new member on VI but have been with Audiobro since day 1.
I've been waiting for the 1.1 update to purchase the full pack - I have Lass 2.5 and Legato Sordino also, along with LADD. I have a block of free time available right now and am wondering if I should purchase and install now, and then update when 1.1 is out - or would it be wiser to wait and do it only once.
What will be involved in updating?
Sebastion?


----------



## Noeticus

If you have the time and the money now, then get it now!

I already have it, but do not know what will be involved to update it.


----------



## Batrawi

alcorey said:


> am wondering if I should purchase and install now, and then update when 1.1 is out - or would it be wiser to wait and do it only once.


they mentioned they'll extend the intro price post the 1.1 release so that potential buyers can evaluate. so you have nothing to lose if you wait. unless you like the library for what it offers already and you're gonna buy it anyway.


----------



## alcorey

Thank you both for your input - I do plan to buy it anyway. I know if I get it now I will be digging right in and devouring it immediately, as I said I have an open block of time available right now - although I could find something else to do if Sebastian were to advise me to just wait a little longer (for whatever reasons).... and I question if I could be wasting time learning things that might possibly change with the update. I remember Sebastian mentioning that this is more than just an update for "Legato only" and not to go too deep into anything just yet.


----------



## molemac

alcorey said:


> Thank you both for your input - I do plan to buy it anyway. I know if I get it now I will be digging right in and devouring it immediately, as I said I have an open block of time available right now - although I could find something else to do if Sebastian were to advise me to just wait a little longer (for whatever reasons).... and I question if I could be wasting time learning things that might possibly change with the update. I remember Sebastian mentioning that this is more than just an update for "Legato only" and not to go too deep into anything just yet.


In the same boat. I am waiting for 1.1 cos it’s only a matter of days now according to Sébastien


----------



## alcorey

molemac, are you waiting just because you want to evaluate the legato before buying? or are there other reasons. I know come Wednesday or Thursday of this coming week I will be quite busy again for a spell and would prefer to load this up while I have some free time available to swim with it - was hoping Sebastian could give me a nudge one way or the other as he is the one who knows what is coming


----------



## CoffeeLover

i was not even slightly curious about this thread when it started last year
so never really bothered to check it out but the thought of getting LASS at some point in my life always appeared in my mind when the thread popped up.

it was in the end of February when i was browsing youtube for some chillout lounge music 
that i like to put on when cleaning the house,there was an introduction video on MSS Ostinatos and some more videos and i bothered to take a look while drinking my extreemly bitter bulletproof coffee before doing house chores 
but the next thing i knew,i was downloading MSS+Legato from audiobro download manager.
i bought it on a whim
i also glued myself to this thread. 
3 videos on damn you tube was all it took,how gullible can one get?
i was gonna buy UREI 1178 a vintage analog stereo compressor but not a library.
i dont regret this and i think this will become a good library.
and i am already on a small project with it. 

anyway
thanks for all the info on this thread 
all of you troubleshooters a real help
and i am sorry for not being much of a team player and chime in.
it takes me forever to express myself in english and let alone expressing technical details
so i usually remain silent cos i am very clumsy in my writing english.

but im happy with MSS and probably gonna be even happyer after next update. 

Cheers <3


----------



## molemac

alcorey said:


> molemac, are you waiting just because you want to evaluate the legato before buying? or are there other reasons. I know come Wednesday or Thursday of this coming week I will be quite busy again for a spell and would prefer to load this up while I have some free time available to swim with it - was hoping Sebastian could give me a nudge one way or the other as he is the one who knows what is coming


Hi , I am waiting because I don’t want to deal with updating . For the sake of a few days I’d rather just have one install . I will buy regardless of the update because a/ I am sure it will be a lot better as proved by pixel trick and b/ I own lass so at £300 it’s a bargain even without legato and even if the sound isn’t à replace all , it has enough useful stuff.


----------



## muziksculp

Looking forward to LASS 3 , I'm most likely going to pass on MSS, sorry, but I don't have too much hope in the 1.1 update of MSS.

I'm Actually super excited about *Sonokinetic*'s Upcoming Strings Library. Will mostl likely end up buying it.


----------



## alcorey

CoffeeLover said:


> i was browsing youtube for some chillout lounge music that i like to put on when cleaning the house, there was an introduction video on MSS Ostinatos and some more videos and i bothered to take a look while drinking my extreemly bitter bulletproof coffee before doing house chores
> but the next thing i knew, i was downloading MSS+Legato from audiobro download manager.
> i bought it on a whim


Cool story CoffeeLover! - moral of story...do not drink extremely bitter bulletproof coffee and watch Ferrari videos on you tube before doing house chores 

molemac - my thoughts exactly..... but I rarely have a whole week open (completely uninterrupted) to do as I please - so installing now and digging in with lots of time to explore would fit the bill - but it's looking more like waiting is smarter

Musiksculp - throughout all of this thread it seems like you've been on and off getting MSS a few times now........ what's now driving the decision to not get it?
Also, I've been trying to get more info on Sono's new and upcoming strings library, but I'm not having much success - can you point me to any videos, teasers or tutorials that are giving you this confidence in it please


----------



## muziksculp

alcorey said:


> can you point me to any videos, teasers or tutorials that are giving you this confidence in it please


No, I can't . 

I'm still waiting just as you are to hear Sonokinetic's Strings library. So it's still a lot of speculation. 

But, I'm also not sure that MSS 1.1 update will be the silver bullet.


----------



## alcorey

Silver bullet (The Lone Ranger..........The masked man decided to use *bullets* forged from the precious metal as a symbol of justice, law and order, and to remind himself and others that life *has* value and the decision to shoot someone is not to be taken lightly.)

MSS won't be one...........I can't even imagine a library that could. 
But they all do add their own unique value to your toolchest, so we choose the ones that make our work (and pleasure) the most rewarding - there is no wrong answer.


----------



## BasariStudios

alcorey said:


> Cool story CoffeeLover! - moral of story...do not drink extremely bitter bulletproof coffee and watch Ferrari videos on you tube before doing house chores


Like this?


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Hoping in the update we also get a CC slot for the Osintatos speed? Seems like an oversight and there's a dash for it... 

especially since the auto and timing tiles have CC assignment slots?


----------



## muziksculp

Not MSS related, but LASS 2.5.1 related.

How can I fix the ARC GUI issue, I'm using Kontakt 6. I tried downloading the update without samples from their downloader, but that didn't fix the GUI issue.

Any tips, or instructions on how to fix this ?

Looking forward to LASS 3.

Thanks.

EDIT/Update : OK, fixed it. 

Now, getting to use the ARC is another challenge for me. One of the main reasons I'm looking forward to use LASS 3 instead.


----------



## CoffeeLover

BasariStudios said:


> Like this?


mmmmm yummy
good ten drops left there!!


----------



## BasariStudios

CoffeeLover said:


> mmmmm yummy
> good ten drops left there!!


It was 6 Espressos in there (my usual morning fix).
And then people wonder why are my posts all over
the place and why am i so easy to start an argument.


----------



## Trevor Meier

BasariStudios said:


> It was 6 Espressos in there (my usual morning fix).
> And then people wonder why are my posts all over
> the place and why am i so easy to start an argument.


Hahahaha this explains so much!


----------



## CoffeeLover

BasariStudios said:


> It was 6 Espressos in there (my usual morning fix).
> And then people wonder why are my posts all over
> the place and why am i so easy to start an argument.


hahahaha 😄
thats great!
you have beaten me by one 
i usually take 5 in my mug"once a day in my espresso"
but lately ive been doing only double .
i bough some serious beans from the Huehuetenango region in Gvatemala. 
were talking serious black satanic water ,
makes you really get things done. 
i was careless of my dosage,bought MSS 
remember it faintly
it happened so fast.


----------



## BasariStudios

Countdown...?


----------



## sourcefor

Yeah I bought MSS and am not that blown away by it yet! I wanted something that was great out of the box without too much tweaking! And I’m not sure if it’s Logics fault or not but sometimes the midi does not even trigger unless I hit the mod wheel! I wish I could sell it and get something else as lass was fine for me!


----------



## paulwr

sourcefor said:


> Yeah I bought MSS and am not that blown away by it yet! I wanted something that was great out of the box without too much tweaking! And I’m not sure if it’s Logics fault or not but sometimes the midi does not even trigger unless I hit the mod wheel! I wish I could sell it and get something else as lass was fine for me!


I've had LASS since near the beginning and I wouldn't say it doesn't need tweaking. I love it and use it more than any other, but it is work. This one might be worth the work, I don't have it yet. Waiting for the update.


----------



## alcorey

May I share a perspective? 
I haven't purchased MSS yet but I own LASS + Legs-Sords + LADD - I paid full price at the time of release for all of them. MSS price for me now with the Expanded Legatos is $549.

I am primarily a guitarist but I also play drums, bass and keys. Can I buy the Holy Grail guitar (in my opinion) for $549? NO 
Drum set? NO
Bass Guitar? NO
Keyboard? NO. etc....etc.... I'm sure you're all in the same camp here
I'd spend at least 5 times that - minimum - to get a top notch instrument

Will I need to have a skillset to use and play any of them? Bet your A$$

Is MSS a good deal for anyone interested in what it offers? I think so yes - but you decide
Will I need skills to use it? I think so yes....and the better I get at it, the better it will serve me....just as my guitars

Peace


----------



## WinterEmerald

Everything I've been reading from Audiobro themselves suggests this update is going to be massive in regards to solving a lot of the problems/gripes people had with the initial release, especially on the legato but apparently with extra features for the ostinato function too (though we may see even more, who knows). They also said that assuming the latest beta went well, it would be out this week.


----------



## sourcefor

WinterEmerald said:


> Everything I've been reading from Audiobro themselves suggests this update is going to be massive in regards to solving a lot of the problems/gripes people had with the initial release, especially on the legato but apparently with extra features for the ostinato function too (though we may see even more, who knows). They also said that assuming the latest beta went well, it would be out this week.


That sounds great I hope so as I do LOVE their products and I do Like MSS and LASS and use them all the time, I just want more ease of use out of the box is all, and Legato would be nice too as I love the LASS Legato, but I got a GREAT deal on LASS 2.5 and then purchased MSS at a discount so its way cheaper than if I got it before NOW!


----------



## WinterEmerald

sourcefor said:


> That sounds great I hope so as I do LOVE their products and I do Like MSS and LASS and use them all the time, I just want more ease of use out of the box is all, and Legato would be nice too as I love the LASS Legato, but I got a GREAT deal on LASS 2.5 and then purchased MSS at a discount so its way cheaper than if I got it before NOW!


They heard the message pretty clearly that it needs more out of the box ease of use so it looks like the update is really going to address that. I feel this is also alongside the fact that, in my opinion, the legato was quite disappointing to start off with. However, I trust the company to be able to really make it sound fantastic, they've proven they can make great legato.


----------



## Evans

WinterEmerald said:


> They heard the message pretty clearly that it needs more out of the box ease of use so it looks like the update is really going to address that. I feel this is also alongside the fact that, in my opinion, the legato was quite disappointing to start off with. However, I trust the company to be able to really make it sound fantastic, they've proven they can make great legato.


At the same time, isn't this sort of Modern Scoring Brass all over again?


----------



## John Longley

Evans said:


> At the same time, isn't this sort of Modern Scoring Brass all over again?


Maybe I’m a freak, but I think MSB is a very good library unless you want FFF bombast.


----------



## Evans

John Longley said:


> Maybe I’m a freak, but I think MSB is a very good library unless you want FFF bombast.


I think MSS is a good library, but I also think we could see the most common complaints coming from a mile away.


----------



## WinterEmerald

Evans said:


> At the same time, isn't this sort of Modern Scoring Brass all over again?


Ah I don't have Modern Scoring Brass though it's one of my considerations. What happened?


----------



## biomuse

WinterEmerald said:


> Ah I don't have Modern Scoring Brass though it's one of my considerations. What happened?


I’m not sure there’s a simple or straightforward connection between the release rough patches of MSS and the issue with MSB - I passed on MSB (in favor of 8DIO Century Ensemble + Artisan, on a really good deal) solely because of the sound. It was a very close decision and not an easy one; I loved the features and flexibility of MSB. My problem with MSB was that, in the end, I thought the approach of recording every instrument solo was fundamentally mistaken and that it could be heard in the tone. 

Very much unlike strings, brass instruments are relatively physically ideal resonating tubes (which is why they are among the most amenable instruments to good physical modeling). When played ensemble, they cross-modulate and affect each others’ sound significantly. All acoustic instruments do this of course, but with brass the effect is pronounced enough to make a real difference.

So while I absolutely adored the concept and customizable nature of MSB, I always felt that, unless drowned in reverb, the singleness of each instrument came through. Again: close call, and others felt and heard differently.

With MSS, I don’t hear a similar issue, although there are other hiccups to be ironed out.


----------



## Evans

Briefly on the "cons" side:

Boxy sound
Vibrato isn't natural and/or heavy enough in places
Can be very CPU heavy
Default Sends are best to turn off immediately
Am I describing MSS? MSB? Both?

I'm not saying either library is bad, but you can find comments on both libraries that cover the same bullet points here and on other forums.

A lot of people say *VSL's Synchron* libraries are "sterile." But, VSL's QA is exhaustive.
People say that the *Cinematic Studio* series is "too dark." But, their legato patches are highly favored.
Well, the *Modern Scoring* series is "boxy." But, the UI/engine offers a lot of flexibility.


----------



## novaburst

Evans said:


> I'm not saying either library is bad, but you can find comments on both libraries


I think this can be said about every library in existence, 

You can find a million wrongs, and you can also find a million rights, in any given library 

You will not get a library that hits all the spots, and I think that is why we have many libraries from different developers, and for the most part combine the library together, 

Some times it is a bit of a hit and miss, but what one lacks in another will gain, 

I think for the most part like it or not we are beta testers weather this is directly or indirectly then its a long road of hope or disappointment as to weather the developers can improve what they have created, 

I think this is the reality of software and software instruments. 

But hay it keeps us chatting on the forum


----------



## Evans

novaburst said:


> I think this can be said about every library in existence,
> 
> You can find a million wrongs, and you can also find a million rights, in any given library
> 
> You will not get a library that hits all the spots, and I think that is why we have many libraries from different developers, and for the most part combine the library together,
> 
> Some times it is a bit of a hit and miss, but what one lacks in another will gain,
> 
> I think for the most part like it or not we are beta testers weather this is directly or indirectly then its a long road of hope or disappointment as to weather the developers can improve what they have created,
> 
> I think this is the reality of software and software instruments.
> 
> But hay it keeps us chatting on the forum


I'm not sure why you cut my quote off where you did. My point that you cut out was that you can find comments on both libraries that quite specifically *share the same criticisms*.

Yes, pretty much every library has its own user complaints (except maybe JB Violin, gosh people love that one), but the post you were quoting was my follow-up to the fact I don't think the reaction to MSS is a wild surprise, given the same reactions to MSB.

I have both MSS and MSB. There are some parts of each I really like. I don't regret the money spent. I'm quite fond of the MSB trumpets, actually. But, I do have trouble fighting the boxy sound. It's not about EQ, because I'm not trying to cut something out, but rather wish something was there in the first place.


----------



## biomuse

On the ‘boxiness’ of Audiobro: it’s also true of LASS, and my recollection from AB’s discussion of it is that the goal is to provide physical placement of the instruments relative to each other by ER. In other words, as is stated in the videos, “use your own favorite reverb,” because none of Audiobro’s products are intended to feature the room as an end-state sound. They’re ”dry-plus,” so that the user can choose the ambience tails appropriate to the project.


----------



## alcorey

Evans said:


> (except maybe JB Violin, gosh people love that one)


https://www.jbviolin.com. Am I missing the boat here??


----------



## biomuse

alcorey said:


> https://www.jbviolin.com. Am I missing the boat here??








Joshua Bell Violin







www.embertone.com


----------



## biomuse

biomuse said:


> Joshua Bell Violin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.embertone.com


Although I’m sure JB is a great shop as well. 😉


----------



## novaburst

Evans said:


> JB Violin, gosh people love that one),


Yes I guess you can't go wrong when you put all your effort in one instrument, I love the Emotional Cello, 

I think more or less developers can have a hard time with full String or brass, and what makes things worse is when they try to get every thing done before a certain date, 

Sorry for wrong quote


----------



## ansthenia

biomuse said:


> On the ‘boxiness’ of Audiobro: it’s also true of LASS, and my recollection from AB’s discussion of it is that the goal is to provide physical placement of the instruments relative to each other by ER. In other words, as is stated in the videos, “use your own favorite reverb,” because none of Audiobro’s products are intended to feature the room as an end-state sound. They’re ”dry-plus,” so that the user can choose the ambience tails appropriate to the project.


I don't think this is what people are referring to when they say it's boxy. I have many extremely dry libraries but I don't think they sound boxy. I don't think VSL recorded in their silent stage sound boxy. The boxy sound seems to come from the fact that you can most definitely feel the room in the samples, but it feels like a very tiny room. Whether this is the case or not, it's what it sounds like.


----------



## Evans

ansthenia said:


> I don't think this is what people are referring to when they say it's boxy. I have many extremely dry libraries but I don't think they sound boxy. I don't think VSL recorded in their silent stage sound boxy. The boxy sound seems to come from the fact that you most can definitely feel the room in the samples, but it feels like a very tiny room. Whether this is the case or not, it's what it sounds like.


Yes. "Stifled" is another way I'd describe "boxy."


----------



## BasariStudios

I took the main Ensemble Patch, turned of the Legato since i do not
need it when playing just Chords and i left Auto Divisi since it does
not actually bother me as i have heard from others. Then i tried to
take MSS OUT of the Box at least for me...since people mention Boxy.
I used Spaces 1 for Space/Stage and CR for Tail. There is actually
another Plugin in there that opens and brightens the sound which
at this point i will not reveal yet. That is the Out of the Box File.
The Second File i shut off Spaces 1 and THAT plugin and i left only
CRs tail on it for at least some release after.
The Patch stayed the same for both files. All EQs and Sends were off.
Nevermind my playing nor i was after the Legato but i wanted to see
if i can bring the sound to a point where i actually like it and now i do.
Let me know what you think.

Thanks


----------



## Trevor Meier

BasariStudios said:


> I took the main Ensemble Patch, turned of the Legato since i do not
> need it when playing just Chords and i left Auto Divisi since it does
> not actually bother me as i have heard from others. Then i tried to
> take MSS OUT of the Box at least for me...since people mention Boxy.
> I used Spaces 1 for Space/Stage and CR for Tail. There is actually
> another Plugin in there that opens and brightens the sound which
> at this point i will not reveal yet. That is the Out of the Box File.
> The Second File i shut off Spaces 1 and THAT plugin and i left only
> CRs tail on it for at least some release after.
> The Patch stayed the same for both files. All EQs and Sends were off.
> Nevermind my playing nor i was after the Legato but i wanted to see
> if i can bring the sound to a point where i actually like it and now i do.
> Let me know what you think.
> 
> Thanks


Definitely a big difference. I’d be interested to hear with *that plugin* + CR (ie without Spaces) to isolate what each plug-in is doing to the sound.


----------



## BasariStudios

And just for the hell of it this is the same Out of the Box
file but Layered with Synchron Strings Pro Ensemble.


----------



## BasariStudios

Trevor Meier said:


> Definitely a big difference. I’d be interested to hear with *that plugin* + CR (ie without Spaces) to isolate what each plug-in is doing to the sound.


Here it is with just THAT Plugin. No Spaces but with CR on,
everything else the same, same Patch as before.
Full Close Mics, little lower Stage Mics, everything else off.
If i am listening correctly i think Spaces is not doing much
of a change except some small Spacial placement...the
difference i think comes from THAT Plugin.


----------



## Casiquire

What plugin are we talking about?


----------



## biomuse

ansthenia said:


> I don't think this is what people are referring to when they say it's boxy. I have many extremely dry libraries but I don't think they sound boxy. I don't think VSL recorded in their silent stage sound boxy. The boxy sound seems to come from the fact that you can most definitely feel the room in the samples, but it feels like a very tiny room. Whether this is the case or not, it's what it sounds like.


Of course you hear no early reflections from VI instruments: the whole point of the Silent Stage is that it’s as close as they could get to a giant anechoic chamber. They record that way so that you can arbitrarily orient and position the instruments or sections in space as you choose. In fact, they came up with a whole multi-impulse convolution system for exactly that purpose; it’s called MIR!

Audiobro has specified since the original LASS that that’s not the approach they use. They record close in a smallish and not particularly live room to give spatial dimension to the sound but the “room sound” is not the point; you’re meant to add late reflections yourself. Ever shut off the late reflections on an algo verb or a good convolution verb? You’ll get a sound that could be called boxy; it’s spatial, but tight. That’s the idea.

You can take issue with whether it’s an effective approach or not, but saying that it doesn’t sound like Vienna is both obvious and irrelevant. Moreover, @BasariStudios’ examples above (and many others besides) demonstrate that it does in fact work as intended.


----------



## molemac

Casiquire said:


> What plugin are we talking about?


Judging how fizzy it sounds Ott ? Just listening on iPhone though.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

biomuse said:


> Of course you hear no early reflections from VI instruments: the whole point of the Silent Stage is that it’s as close as they could get to a giant anechoic chamber. They record that way so that you can arbitrarily orient and position the instruments or sections in space as you choose. In fact, they came up with a whole multi-impulse convolution system for exactly that purpose; it’s called MIR!


Wrong! It’s in no way anechoic. It’s one of those urban legends. You have a lot of reflections, but no long tail. The point of the silent stage is to have a controlled and most neutral sounding environment with a low noise floor and no bothering sounds from the outside (= i.e. silent). Actually it‘s a tiny scoring stage with centered positioning.






SILENT STAGE - Vienna Symphonic Library


Vienna Symphonic Library's recording facility, the specially built Silent Stage




www.vsl.co.at


----------



## biomuse

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Wrong! It’s in no way anechoic. It’s one of those urban legends. You have a lot of reflections, but no long tail. The point of the silent stage is to have a controlled and most neutral sounding environment with a low noise floor and no bothering sounds from the outside (= i.e. silent). Actually it‘s a tiny scoring stage with centered positioning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SILENT STAGE - Vienna Symphonic Library
> 
> 
> Vienna Symphonic Library's recording facility, the specially built Silent Stage
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vsl.co.at
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I own Solo


Everyone who loves their instruments, myself included, has scoured their website. But now use your ears. The goal is: dry as a bone.

I have Solo Strings I & II. If you do as well, then take a listen and you will hear no perceptible room in it at all. There are limitations on having a space be truly anechoic when asking someone(s) to perform in it, but they obviously get as close to dry as they can. Remember all the complaints about ”sterility?”


----------



## BasariStudios

biomuse said:


> Everyone who loves their instruments, myself included, has scoured their website. But now use your ears. The goal is: dry as a bone.
> 
> I have Solo Strings I & II. If you do as well, then take a listen and you will hear no perceptible room in it at all. There are limitations on having a space be truly anechoic when asking someone(s) to perform in it, but they obviously get as close to dry as they can. Remember all the complaints about ”sterility?”


Appasionatta is bone dry too.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

biomuse said:


> Everyone who loves their instruments, myself included, has scoured their website. But now use your ears. The goal is: dry as a bone.
> 
> I have Solo Strings I & II. If you do as well, then take a listen and you will hear no perceptible room in it at all. There are limitations on having a space be truly anechoic when asking someone(s) to perform in it, but they obviously get as close to dry as they can. Remember all the complaints about ”sterility?”


I'm very familiar with VSL, I have nearly all of the VI instruments and use them as my go-to libraries in MIR Pro Synchron Stage. 

The goal is not to be as dry as possible, maybe we are talking about different things. They are recorded close, that's why you have less room information, but it's far away from bone dry (and this hasn't been the concept of it at all). The silent stage has a lot of early reflections, but no long tail. It's similar to Hollywood Orchestra (about 0.8 seconds). Of course, the room is dramatically smaller than EastWest. As I said, it's a very small scoring stage sound.

In my opinion, Appassionata Strings are their string library with the "best" out-of-the-box sound. You could use them without much reverb added. For me, VSL isn't sterile, too. I prefer the sound to any other "polished" libraries out there.


----------



## ism

biomuse said:


> Everyone who loves their instruments, myself included, has scoured their website. But now use your ears. The goal is: dry as a bone.
> 
> I have Solo Strings I & II. If you do as well, then take a listen and you will hear no perceptible room in it at all. There are limitations on having a space be truly anechoic when asking someone(s) to perform in it, but they obviously get as close to dry as they can. Remember all the complaints about ”sterility?”



VSL is bone dry. But I hater that there’s bone dry and anechoic dry. I’ve heard that being in an actually anechoic chamber is so uncanny that it can freak you out. It not just dry, it’s like the sound is so devoid of embodiment that your mind loose connection with any sesne being in the actual world of time and space. 

There are cafes I can think on in London that are a bit like that. There’s something about a conversation in too small a space that can feel unnatural to the point of uncanny.


----------



## BasariStudios

ism said:


> VSL is bone dry. But I hater that there’s bone dry and anechoic dry. I’ve heard that being in an actually anechoic chamber is so uncanny that it can freak you out. It not just dry, it’s like the sound is so devoid of embodiment that your mind loose connection with any sesne being in the actual world of time and space.
> 
> There are cafes I can think on in London that are a bit like that. There’s something about a conversation in too small a space that can feel unnatural to the point of uncanny.


Years ago after i treated my studio walls...when my wife entered for the first time and spoke she freaked out. There was no ambience or early or anything. It sounded so weird and she ran out.


----------



## Noeticus

I ounce had a very dry martini when using Appassionata Strings, and it really wet my whistle.


----------



## Laddy

BasariStudios said:


> Years ago after i treated my studio walls...when my wife entered for the first time and spoke she freaked out. There was no ambience or early or anything. It sounded so weird and she ran out.


Thanks for the tip!

(joking..)


----------



## muziksculp

My Studio is Acoustically treated, and has that bone-dry acoustic character. No acoustics. 

The minute I step our of the studio, everything sounds better


----------



## muziksculp

Years ago, I visited a room in a monastery in Portugal, I don't remember the name, or the city it was in, they had a room built of real human skulls, it was a very eerie place to be in, the thing that got my attention as well, was how dead sounding that room was, with all acoustic reflections being absorbed, and deflected by spherical shape of the skulls, that formed the walls, and ceiling. I don't think I've experienced a more dead acoustical space than that room in the monastery.


----------



## FireGS

muziksculp said:


> a room built of real human skulls





muziksculp said:


> the thing that got my attention as well, was how dead sounding that room was





muziksculp said:


> I don't think I've experienced a more dead acoustical space



So, it was dead. Got it!


----------



## John Longley

Can anybody post an example, or at least provide their input, on how MSS handles fast legato passages? Not the runs patch, but nimble passages played in. I.e the agile legato from SSP. Still completely unsure if I want this. I own MSB and am largely happy with it, but the examples don’t really cover enough of the ground I care about. Thanks!


----------



## biomuse

John Longley said:


> Can anybody post an example, or at least provide their input, on how MSS handles fast legato passages? Not the runs patch, but nimble passages played in. I.e the agile legato from SSP. Still completely unsure if I want this. I own MSB and am largely happy with it, but the examples don’t really cover enough of the ground I care about. Thanks!


I assume you’ve already taken a look at the Intuition Patches video on the Audiobro site? Focuses on fast passages nearly exclusively.


----------



## John Longley

biomuse said:


> I assume you’ve already taken a look at the Intuition Patches video on the Audiobro site? Focuses on fast passages nearly exclusively.


Yes, but I’m not counting on liking the tone. It’ll depend on the case. In MSB I really don’t like the sound of the intuition patches. I agree they’re useful, but I’m wondering about the agility of the regular legato.


----------



## dzilizzi

You might want to wait until the update is done. For me, the initial tone has been so-so, but the sound some are getting from this library is very good. It needs a lot of adjustment- or a little- really depends upon what you want it to sound like. And there's been issues with the legato. But I'm hearing they are happy with the fix, and it is in testing mode right now.


----------



## John Longley

dzilizzi said:


> You might want to wait until the update is done. For me, the initial tone has been so-so, but the sound some are getting from this library is very good. It needs a lot of adjustment- or a little- really depends upon what you want it to sound like. And there's been issues with the legato. But I'm hearing they are happy with the fix, and it is in testing mode right now.


Yes, I have been following the update and my final decision will be based on what I hear from that. Any comment on the agility of the existing legato. I understand the main complaint was the transitions were too minimal as is, but nothing regarding their speed.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Hoping the update is released this week so we can get some user reactions. Feels a bit like the wind has been let out of the sails for MSS at the moment. A pity given the potential. A lot of competition out there, so a quick update is needed to capitalize on the remaining excitement.


----------



## molemac

dxmachina said:


> Thanks folks!
> 
> @molemac Very well, thanks! We've been testing and refining, testing and refining. Not sure the actual release date yet, but getting close now.


Hi @dxmachina How’s it going , it’s passed into week 2 of the last tease. Are we close to 1.1?


----------



## dxmachina

Yes, I do think MSS 1.1 will be released this week. We're working on packaging it up now, updating the manual, etc. I'm not sure that we'll also have time to get a new video (or set of videos out this week), but at the very least we'll have to completely redo the legato video we have up. There are some folks on this forum who have been testing for a couple weeks and I'm sure will share their experiences.


----------



## karender

dxmachina said:


> Yes, I do think MSS 1.1 will be released this week. We're working on packaging it up now, updating the manual, etc. I'm not sure that we'll also have time to get a new video (or set of videos out this week), but at the very least we'll have to completely redo the legato video we have up. There are some folks on this forum who have been testing for a couple weeks and I'm sure will share their experiences.


I'm excited to see the update!

Also, not that I know the business, but why don't you guys hire someone for making videos? A lot of companies already doing this. Or, at least send NFR copies to reviewers so they can make their own videos.


----------



## BasariStudios

karender said:


> I'm excited to see the update!
> 
> Also, not that I know the business, but why don't you guys hire someone for making videos? A lot of companies already doing this. Or, at least send NFR copies to reviewers so they can make their own videos.


The problem with NFR is that most stuff is 400-500-600 bucks
And most of the people will not do a video for that much money
Especially on the requirements sometimes developers ask.
So in reality sometimes they have to give an NFR plus pay money on top.


----------



## dzilizzi

I'd do it for an NFR copy. It will be a crap video because not only do I not have a lot of experience with videos, I'm also not that great at writing orchestral music


----------



## CT

dzilizzi said:


> I'd do it for an NFR copy. It will be a crap video because not only do I not have a lot of experience with videos, I'm also not that great at writing orchestral music


Yes! I'm definitely a little skeptical of people and their YouTube channels, but maybe I just haven't had the right motivation from developers to $hill out yet!


----------



## molemac

dxmachina said:


> Yes, I do think MSS 1.1 will be released this week. We're working on packaging it up now, updating the manual, etc. I'm not sure that we'll also have time to get a new video (or set of videos out this week), but at the very least we'll have to completely redo the legato video we have up. There are some folks on this forum who have been testing for a couple weeks and I'm sure will share their experiences.


Thanks for update , does that mean you will just release it with a quick changelog? Or a couple of audio demos too ?


----------



## amorphosynthesis

dxmachina said:


> Yes, I do think MSS 1.1 will be released this week. We're working on packaging it up now, updating the manual, etc.


Quick question:Is the update a patch on top of v1.0 or you should redownload the whole thing once is out?


----------



## dxmachina

molemac said:


> Thanks for update , does that mean you will just release it with a quick changelog? Or a couple of audio demos too ?


We'll definitely add a video or two with new examples to hear, it's just a question of timing. The update will likely come out before those are done.



amorphosynthesis said:


> Quick question:Is the update a patch on top of v1.0 or you should redownload the whole thing once is out?


Yes, it will be a patch and will not require a complete new download. Previously saved projects will not be altered, but the instruments will need to be reloaded to take advantage of all the new features.


----------



## borisb2

dxmachina said:


> ... to take advantage of all the new features.


wow, that sounds exciting


----------



## Noc

Today’s the day dxmachina reveals the 1.1 update was a prank all along 

j/k don’t hurt me


----------



## robh

Noc said:


> Today’s the day dxmachina reveals the 1.1 update was a prank all along
> 
> j/k don’t hurt me


I heard they went back and re-recorded everything because of our feedback.
😉


----------



## ChristianM

They added woodwinds of what I saw ...


----------



## WinterEmerald

I'm curious actually, will we get an email or is it just a case of one of us checking the download centre then alerting people here?


----------



## Dopplereffect

WinterEmerald said:


> I'm curious actually, will we get an email or is it just a case of one of us checking the download centre then alerting people here?


----------



## paulwr

Pulled The Trigger. What the hell, the fixes are as a patch. Enough here to like as is and have a project to use it on over the next couple of days, I like jumping into it, I tend to learn faster that way. Had LASS since the beginning and it remains my workhorse today even with having many others. This seems like a wonderful complimentary library to LASS, I'll comment again after the first project, which will be mixed in Atmos 7.1.4 and Binaural 3D.


----------



## BasariStudios

Its almost here i guess...


----------



## GingerMaestro

Perhaps today might be the big day when we see if our (quite big) investment pays out !


----------



## Evans

GingerMaestro said:


> Perhaps today might be the big day when we see if our (quite big) investment pays out !


I would *love *to have the opportunity to take a strong look at an update over this weekend (when I actually have time), but I understand if it's not quite ready.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Evans said:


> I would *love *to have the opportunity to take a strong look at an update over this weekend (when I actually have time), but I understand if it's not quite ready.


Same here. I have a new project starting Monday for which I'd love to integrate MSS for real.


----------



## molemac

Unless they work over Easter looks like next week now. Let’s hope its a case of Modern Secular Strings.


----------



## WinterEmerald

molemac said:


> Unless they work over Easter looks like next week now. Let’s hope its a case of Modern Secular Strings.


It looks like the update itself is done as the last post by them on here stated they were just all packaging it up now. It may be a case where it's just about timing, maybe they want an Easter weekend release? I'm keeping my fingers crossed as I am so keen for this update.


----------



## ChristianM

Will we have Easter chocolates with the update?


----------



## FireGS

There's no way it drops before Monday, IMO.


----------



## dzilizzi

ChristianM said:


> Will we have Easter chocolates with the update?


Marshmallow Bunnies!


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

wow. pretty annoyed to find out that the Expanded legato is ONLY a separate Kontakt patch. The language on the product page makes it sound like it is OPTIONAL to load it separately. 

so you basically *need* to load up a separate instrument on a separate midi channel just to use three patches. I really don't find that helpful or efficient. I know some people work on machines with limited power so the options is useful, but then again, some of us have invested in machines that can handle that sort of thing; to not have the option kind of, well, sucks. To Spitfire's credit even though I generally dislike what they've been doing recently, their Kontakt libraries usually gave you a lot of wiggle room. 

Would really love a FULL .nki in the update. The only options right now that I can see to keep each instrument to one DAW track are: make a Kontakt bank (hate these because you can't tweak once it's in there), do a KSP translator, or use OSCulator/BOME (my preferred method and how I solved an issue mentioned below). I know a lot of people are hype on the articulation per track workflow so this wouldn't apply but that just doesn't SEEM to be the vibe of this library (if anyone is doing it that way would love to hear about your setup just for edification), it feels entirely aimed at the articulation switcher types (I mean my god you would have to load SO MANY instances of this library to get all the articulations). 

To update some of my review, there are some minor inefficiencies I've discovered in the patch organization, such as some patches being redundant in the CC Stack at the expense of certain scale patches. The intervallic scales like 3-H-H are not present in the CC Stack, but Sul Tasto is definitely there twice with no difference. The first few are kind of redundant as well, EXCEPT you don't have a Legato: Accent switch, so the first Legato switch, while redundant in itself should really be a value (placed elsewhere) for Legato: Accent. The Sustain, Sordino, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont, however are definitely redundant, especially since if you hit one of those switches and your bow accent is on the wrong kind for what you want, you're going to have to go and pick the bow specific switch/CC value anyway. Pizzicato, Col Legno, and Bartok Pizz also appear twice. When you add those redundancies up you have all the room for the missing patches. (I've already brought this up to AB). 

I'm still really happy with this library, so far, I just used it to do the majority of the strings on mockups for a major up-coming horror release and everyone was pretty happy with it. The sound is there (the staccatos need to be layered with CSS for me though, not quite enough snap in the recording), but there are just some things that are worth addressing in the way the .nki's are put together.


----------



## Noeticus

I too would love to see a ... "FULL .nki in the update."


----------



## gst98

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> wow. pretty annoyed to find out that the Expanded legato is ONLY a separate Kontakt patch. The language on the product page makes it sound like it is OPTIONAL to load it separately.
> 
> so you basically *need* to load up a separate instrument on a separate midi channel just to use three patches. I really don't find that helpful or efficient. I know some people work on machines with limited power so the options is useful, but then again, some of us have invested in machines that can handle that sort of thing; to not have the option kind of, well, sucks. To Spitfire's credit even though I generally dislike what they've been doing recently, their Kontakt libraries usually gave you a lot of wiggle room.
> 
> Would really love a FULL .nki in the update. The only options right now that I can see to keep each instrument to one DAW track are: make a Kontakt bank (hate these because you can't tweak once it's in there), do a KSP translator, or use OSCulator/BOME (my preferred method and how I solved an issue mentioned below). I know a lot of people are hype on the articulation per track workflow so this wouldn't apply but that just doesn't SEEM to be the vibe of this library (if anyone is doing it that way would love to hear about your setup just for edification), it feels entirely aimed at the articulation switcher types (I mean my god you would have to load SO MANY instances of this library to get all the articulations).
> 
> To update some of my review, there are some minor inefficiencies I've discovered in the patch organization, such as some patches being redundant in the CC Stack at the expense of certain scale patches. The intervallic scales like 3-H-H are not present in the CC Stack, but Sul Tasto is definitely there twice with no difference. The first few are kind of redundant as well, EXCEPT you don't have a Legato: Accent switch, so the first Legato switch, while redundant in itself should really be a value (placed elsewhere) for Legato: Accent. The Sustain, Sordino, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont, however are definitely redundant, especially since if you hit one of those switches and your bow accent is on the wrong kind for what you want, you're going to have to go and pick the bow specific switch/CC value anyway. Pizzicato, Col Legno, and Bartok Pizz also appear twice. When you add those redundancies up you have all the room for the missing patches. (I've already brought this up to AB).
> 
> I'm still really happy with this library, so far, I just used it to do the majority of the strings on mockups for a major up-coming horror release and everyone was pretty happy with it. The sound is there (the staccatos need to be layered with CSS for me though, not quite enough snap in the recording), but there are just some things that are worth addressing in the way the .nki's are put together.




There is a limit to how many samples an nki can hold.


----------



## Noeticus

gst98 said:


> There is a limit to how many samples an nki can hold.


In that case I would also like to see an nki be able to hold more than it currently can.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

gst98 said:


> There is a limit to how many samples an nki can hold.


the limit is pretty damn high, around 131,000 zones

doing a word count on occurrences of "V l n s _ 1 A _" (and 1 B, 2 A, 2 B etc...) in the NKC files for all the violins samples, just trying to get a rough sense of the number of samples, they are not close to that limit (and I concede this is a very rough way to get a number but it's something). Maybe like 10,000 sample files (zones) assuming some margin of error in the word count function. 

Plus reading the language from the product page it seems like this was done by choice not necessity.


----------



## DennyB

Noeticus said:


> I too would love to see a ... "FULL .nki in the update."


Just to be clear, the main concern here is that there are no nki instruments with full articulation sets? You need to have separate tracks (or a multi?) to write with both legato and other articulations?

sorry for the clearly newbie question.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

DennyB said:


> Just to be clear, the main concern here is that there are no nki instruments with full articulation sets? You need to have separate tracks (or a multi?) to have legato on the same track as other articulations?
> 
> sorry for the clearly newbie question.


only for the expanded sul tasto, sul pont, and con sord legatos


----------



## DennyB

Ok, so ‘normal’ legato (sorry, I’m a brass player, still learning all the articulations) are a part of the core library and contained in a single instrument with other more bread and butter articulations like pizz and such?


----------



## gst98

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> the limit is pretty damn high, around 131,000 zones
> 
> doing a word count on occurrences of "V l n s _ 1 A _" (and 1 B, 2 A, 2 B etc...) in the NKC files for all the violins samples, just trying to get a rough sense of the number of samples, they are not close to that limit (and I concede this is a very rough way to get a number but it's something). Maybe like 10,000 sample files (zones) assuming some margin of error in the word count function.
> 
> Plus reading the language from the product page it seems like this was done by choice not necessity.


I don't have MSS so I can't say, but off the top of my head, I struggle to think of many libraries that have more than one legato. It then multiplies if you have portamento and glissando, and by how many dynamic layers are recorded. From what I understand this is the reason Play exists.


----------



## karender

gst98 said:


> There is a limit to how many samples an nki can hold.


Let's say the sample limit is the problem. There is a master Violins patch, which consists of 4 divisis. So, this one should be the one using max samples. They can split it into Vln I and Vln II, so there will be more room for expanded legato.  

There is no need for a master violins patch. Even though they are the same instruments, they are different sections. They can still make a master violins patch without legato for sketch purposes, like the ensemble patch.


----------



## dzilizzi

gst98 said:


> There is a limit to how many samples an nki can hold.


This is actually why Spitfire initially went with their own sample player. They still do Kontakt, but they can use multi mic instruments now, which they had trouble with in Kontakt. OT may have done it partially for the same reason.


----------



## gst98

dzilizzi said:


> This is actually why Spitfire initially went with their own sample player. They still do Kontakt, but they can use multi mic instruments now, which they had trouble with in Kontakt. OT may have done it partially for the same reason.


Yes and presumably why they break out legato patches in their own nki.


----------



## BasariStudios

DennyB said:


> Ok, so ‘normal’ legato (sorry, I’m a brass player, still learning all the articulations) are a part of the core library and contained in a single instrument with other more bread and butter articulations like pizz and such?


Exactly like you described. The Legatos for
Sul Tasto and the others are just an expansion
Which you can opt out, it is not included.


----------



## DennyB

BasariStudios said:


> Exactly like you described. The Legatos for
> Sul Tasto and the others are just an expansion
> Which you can opt out, it is not included.


thank you. Sorry for being dense. Probably a result of being a lifelong low brass player.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

@gst the limitation was previously much smaller (37k), so maybe on older libraries 

either way, now you would need to occupy 128 zones with 1024 separate samples to hit the current 131072 sample limit. Obviously no string instrument has to occupy all 128 zones because strings don't play across the whole keyboard, so violins for example only require 44 zones which means you can have 2,978 samples per zone. that's a lot! idk man. 

just going off the word count to estimate the number of samples, they don't seem to be close.

for the full mics nkc files for the violins (Full_10 - Full_15) it's pointing to about 21,011 samples. multiplied by the 4 mic positions, that's 84,044 samples. being lazy with the math, that's like 673 samples per patch (using the 125 CC Stack patches even though some are redundant), so the 3 legatos add 2,018 samples? So 86,044 total? You'd still have 45,028 available for the full violins nki where it's 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B in one instrument. 

i'm sure i'm wrong somehow but i'm just going off the information I can find and my (poor) math skills.


----------



## Evans

I understand delay and I am pleased with my original purchase, but I sure wish there was an understanding of any improvements to the Expanded Legato patches before Berlin Special Bows goes off sale tomorrow.


----------



## ansthenia

Audiobro are pretty bad at predicting their own release dates


----------



## lettucehat

Evans said:


> I understand delay and I am pleased with my original purchase, but I sure wish there was an understanding of any improvements to the Expanded Legato patches before Berlin Special Bows goes off sale tomorrow.


Does MSS have sul tasto/pont shorts? My impression was that special bows had more articulations going for it.


----------



## Evans

lettucehat said:


> Does MSS have sul tasto/pont shorts? My impression was that special bows had more articulations going for it.


It does not, but the extreme majority of my use here (which itself is infrequent) would be for sustains.


----------



## BasariStudios

???


----------



## WinterEmerald

BasariStudios said:


> ???


Yeah I want it badly too...


----------



## BasariStudios

WinterEmerald said:


> Yeah I want it badly too...


It will be all good. Patience.


----------



## WinterEmerald

BasariStudios said:


> It will be all good. Patience.


Tbh for their sake it really needs to be as I'm not even bothering with their legato right now


----------



## Zedcars

Oh my Lord, I was reading these posts and seriously thought I was in the Opus thread. I couldn’t believe people wanted it that badly any more.


----------



## krismiller1982

What exactly is being fixed in this 1.1 update?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

krismiller1982 said:


> What exactly is being fixed in this 1.1 update?


Legato and other stuff - TBD what exactly.

The delay does seem to imply the initial release was rushed out. Seems like a lot of tweaks were still pending, which I imagine will be in the 1.1 update.


----------



## WinterEmerald

krismiller1982 said:


> What exactly is being fixed in this 1.1 update?


In terms of fixes, primarily the legato and making it far more accessible and effective right out of the box, including other adjustments to make it just better and flow in a nicer way. They're also adding more legato modes, including an 'espressivo' mode and another mode too (less detail on this one but linked with ease of use). They did say they were also adding features (including for the ostinato tool) but no solid detail.


ALittleNightMusic said:


> Legato and other stuff - TBD what exactly.
> 
> The delay does seem to imply the initial release was rushed out. Seems like a lot of tweaks were still pending, which I imagine will be in the 1.1 update.


Yeah I agree about the original seeming rushed, very possible that 1.1 will be what they wanted 1.0 to be from the beginning.


----------



## olilo

krismiller1982 said:


> *What exactly is being fixed in this 1.1 update?*


*See release notes just published **https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-strings-update-and-release-notes/*


----------



## ansthenia

1.1 Released!!


----------



## ChristianM

update update let's go !


----------



## molemac

olilo said:


> *See release notes just published **https://audiobro.com/modern-scoring-strings-update-and-release-notes/*


Bloomin 'ell


----------



## paulwr

god, I just watched half the video for the 1.1 update. Sounding pretty damn good to me, now to download the update. I just purchased two days ago with the extension and though its just a movie trailer piece for an Atmos studio that I started using it on that is not dependent on too many nuanced string performance features, so far, so good!


----------



## ansthenia

Just from noodling around for 20 minutes, this update rocks. The legato is waaay better, the library now feels much more expressive under your fingers, not as static as it was.


----------



## molemac

John is liking this


----------



## John Longley

samplin said:


> HI, I downloaded the update to my folder and it looks like its there, but kontakt can't find the samples... any ideas?


Try clicking Update in the downloader, and just ensure it picks the install location before you download it.


----------



## samplin

do I enter serial number in native access like the full version?


----------



## borisb2

Update is ready?? Noooo, I’m on easter holiday-trip


----------



## Noeticus

Wow! Congratulations again AudioBro team!

The v1.1 improvements are awesome!

However, I would like to see BLOOM, when set to 100%, be twice as strong as it is now.


----------



## Nimrod7

Just purchased. 
Does the update requires 1.0 to be installed? 
Or 1.1 downloads the whole thing, and that's all?


----------



## Evans

The new Ostinato controls are legit.


----------



## jamesavery

Nimrod7 said:


> Just purchased.
> Does the update requires 1.0 to be installed?
> Or 1.1 downloads the whole thing, and that's all?


It requires 1.0 to be installed.


----------



## Evans

If you've just purchased, it looks like the Audiobro Download Center app will give you 1.1 for a completely new install.

So, for new users: download "Modern Scoring Strings 1.1." For existing users, download only the 1.1 update under "Updates available."


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

What I am really looking forward to are reviews from the folks that absolutely hated the 1.0 release. Have AudioBros saved the library from the bin for you?


----------



## Noeticus

This library is now MONUMENTAL!!!!

:emoji_fire: :emoji_fire: :emoji_fire: :emoji_fire: :emoji_fire: :emoji_fire:


----------



## Trevor Meier

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What I am really looking forward to are reviews from the folks that absolutely hated the 1.0 release. Have AudioBros saved the library from the bin for you?


Me too! Let's hear it!

I’m especially interested to hear some divisi impressions & samples with the new legato.


----------



## samplin

John Longley said:


> got it downloaded.... just took 4 attempts at doing the same thing.... probably my connection and alot of people downloading right now...


----------



## dts_marin

Noeticus said:


> Wow! Congratulations again AudioBro team!
> 
> The v1.1 improvements are awesome!
> 
> However, I would like to see BLOOM, when set to 100%, be twice as strong as it is now.


I heard setting it at 200% and enabling the Chopper from the mixer will make it Goldbloom.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> Update is ready?? Noooo, I’m on easter holiday-trip


Nooo, I'm back in England in quarantine.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I hope AudioBro (or more likely, this community) posts new demos that utilize the new updates - and less aleatoric focused ones.


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina Well done on the update! If you don’t mind the first of probably a million questions, do you have any info on how much longer the intro pricing will last exactly? I’d still like to wait to hear a few more comprehensive demos (on the AB site & in this thread) before pulling the trigger, but I don’t wanna cut it too close.


----------



## borisb2

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What I am really looking forward to are reviews from the folks that absolutely hated the 1.0 release. Have AudioBros saved the library from the bin for you?


1.0 user here...

After playing only a few minutes with new 1.1 update I can already say that the violins feel one-galaxy-better than the old ones..


----------



## Tinesaeriel

Ah, darn it.

After listening to the legatos in the new update video, I might have to get this again, now.

Darn it! I don't have the money to spend on it right now aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


----------



## chrisr

Wow that's a huge 1.1, and looks like it's beautifully implemented.


----------



## Simon Ravn

The update sounds great! But I am still on the fence because of the tone I hear in the demos. Anyone who could do just something smalle with the new update and make it sing? Or someone who has secretely done something with V1 but not posted it yet

I bought the sordino/sul tasto part of the library and believe I have made that work, sonically. Just not sure the same thing can be done to the main library.


----------



## Nimrod7

Hey,

I am not familiar at all with AudioBro interface (MSS is my first product). 
I am wondering how I can get rid some articulations from the Grid or the Tile Switcher (like the last slot which is empty).
I did a quick scan on the manual, but still no clue.

What I am looking to archive is consistency with my template by customise the articulations per instance of MSS to avoid unnecessarily having articulations loaded, or keyswitching by accident.


----------



## Nimrod7

Ok, apparently the first slot when you're selecting Articulations is empty (but not highly visible), and that's how you get rid of them in keyswitching. 

They remain in the grid tho, not sure if loaded or waiting to be loaded. Leaving my previous message if anyone runs into this issue.


----------



## [email protected]

I just installed the new update, now I have to reload all patches before I can use the new features...

That made me consider using the expression maps designed by Audiobro. Does anyone know here if there are also new expression maps available with the new update?


----------



## samplin

[email protected] said:


> I just installed the new update, now I have to reload all patches before I can use the new features...
> 
> That made me consider using the expression maps designed by Audiobro. Does anyone know here if there are also new expression maps available with the new update?


I love them, yes the update has new maps just drag them over


----------



## Soundbed

BasariStudios said:


> Here it is with just THAT Plugin. No Spaces but with CR on,
> everything else the same, same Patch as before.
> Full Close Mics, little lower Stage Mics, everything else off.
> If i am listening correctly i think Spaces is not doing much
> of a change except some small Spacial placement...the
> difference i think comes from THAT Plugin.


What’s the purpose of keeping the plugin secret?

Gulfoss, Soothe2 or iZotope Sculptor could all be used to open up the tone a bit, I suppose.


----------



## FKVStudio

Noc said:


> @dxmachina Well done on the update! If you don’t mind the first of probably a million questions, do you have any info on how much longer the intro pricing will last exactly? I’d still like to wait to hear a few more comprehensive demos (on the AB site & in this thread) before pulling the trigger, but I don’t wanna cut it too close.


I join the question. How long will the introductory prices hold now that update 1.1 has been released? @dxmachina


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Depending on how long Audio bro continue the intro offer, this is now a library that we DESPERATELY need a decent demo and some pieces of work with 1.1 to help potential buyers decide.

It seems the hype train is back on - It went sky high, then fell flat, and it seems to be building again - for me personally I want to find out if this is just initial excitement or if these latest changes with 1.1 REALLY have made it in to an all around , fully useable string work horse.


----------



## Evans

Am I the only one (I know I'm not, I'm being silly) who rarely pays attention to demos and mostly cares about walkthroughs? 

When Orchestral Tools releases a new library, for example, I don't usually jump to the "Audio demos" section. I primarily listen to the clips under the "Instruments" tab.

Full demo songs do a better job of showing me how skilled the writer is with orchestration and mixing than it does detailing the nuance of the library itself.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Hmmm. Keep BBC core and grab MSS? Or update to BBC pro. What would you do?


----------



## dzilizzi

Baronvonheadless said:


> Hmmm. Keep BBC core and grab MSS? Or update to BBC pro. What would you do?


Do you like the sound of the strings? If so, it might be worth getting them. The problem is, you are talking strings only vs a full orchestra. So if you need horns, winds, and brass, MSS won't help. 

If you like the sound and you need strings, I'd say go for it. You get a lot for your money with this.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Can someone with the 1.1 update try entering & exiting an ostinato with a legato phrase?

legato > ostinato > legato

In v1 it didn’t seem possible to get a smooth transition.


----------



## dxmachina

Noc said:


> If you don’t mind the first of probably a million questions, do you have any info on how much longer the intro pricing will last exactly?





FKVStudio said:


> I join the question. How long will the introductory prices hold now that update 1.1 has been released?


We still have two big things currently our queue for release... the 1.1 Update for Expanded Legato and a video covering the Expanded Legato library (the Expression Maps, Articulation Sets, and S1 Sound Variations are also getting a complete overhaul for Expanded).

At this point we're just going to freeze (and not end) the intro period until those two are out (next week as an estimate). At that point we'll start the "clock" on the intro period, update the intro dates on the site, and email everyone on our list. So realistically there are _weeks_ left that this point for anyone on the fence.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

dzilizzi said:


> Do you like the sound of the strings? If so, it might be worth getting them. The problem is, you are talking strings only vs a full orchestra. So if you need horns, winds, and brass, MSS won't help.
> 
> If you like the sound and you need strings, I'd say go for it. You get a lot for your money with this.


I think they do sound good and options are nice for creating unique stuff. I’m just wondering how it will all blend with what I have. At the moment I use bbc core and blend it with abbey road one depending on what I’m going for. I also have cinebrass Sonore and junkie xl for brass that I blend with bbc core or abbey road. I was thinking of getting bbc pro for the mic positions and more control because I do love that sound...but the ostinatos and string runs from this mss are making me think trying to replicate anything like that in bbc would be a headache. Hmmmm.


----------



## Evans

This is a great showing by Audiobro, and I hope far more people beyond the few posters at VI-Control are taking note.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

dxmachina, can I ask - do you not send out NFR copies to reviewers as a policy? I just think a library of this scope, with so much under the hood, really deserves a good walkthrough, really showing of its potential, as well as educating , in one deep dive video. 

I am definitely excited for this again, and cannot wait to hear 1.1 in a real world scenario. I can only imagine how much sleep, family time and health you and your team have sacrificed to get this out to the community, so a massive thanks and a well done are truly in order here.


----------



## Mucusman

Baronvonheadless said:


> Hmmm. Keep BBC core and grab MSS? Or update to BBC pro. What would you do?


The reality is that with going from BBC Core to Pro, you're mostly getting just more of the same. More mics. A couple more instruments, and string leaders. If the greater depth of mixing (mic) options is really what you want, go that way. I have Core, and am on the fence with MSS. For me, it's an easy choice... except that jumping to MSS is 2x the money. With MSS, you get an entirely new set of strings with lots of new functionality. In my view, you're getting "string leaders" as well with MSS, though admittedly, not recorded in the same room as BBCSO. Of course, only you know what you want or what holes you have to fill... personally, I'd put the money I would have used for BBCSO Pro towards MSS.


----------



## dzilizzi

Baronvonheadless said:


> I think they do sound good and options are nice for creating unique stuff. I’m just wondering how it will all blend with what I have. At the moment I use bbc core and blend it with abbey road one depending on what I’m going for. I also have cinebrass Sonore and junkie xl for brass that I blend with bbc core or abbey road. I was thinking of getting bbc pro for the mic positions and more control because I do love that sound...but the ostinatos and string runs from this mss are making me think trying to replicate anything like that in bbc would be a headache. Hmmmm.


This library is on the dry side. Not totally dry, but dry enough, which should allow it to blend well with other libraries, once you add a similar reverb. 

I would wait to update to the pro version of BBCSO until the Christmas sale where it will be 40% off the upgrade price. It will be much more affordable then. 

I am also on the fence about this library and tipping due to the sound of the update. I have a hard time with the close/dry libraries - on one hand, they are much better in terms of ease blending, but on the other, they don't sound as good to me in walkthroughs because, no reverb. But this is kind of what I was hoping to get from EW's new HOOPUS/orchestrator. And I'm worried AudioBro is doing it much better than EW will. (I already have HO Diamond. So I just need the orchestrator) It sounds like I will have time to decide.


----------



## Soundbed

John Longley said:


> Can anybody post an example, or at least provide their input, on how MSS handles fast legato passages? Not the runs patch, but nimble passages played in. I.e the agile legato from SSP. Still completely unsure if I want this. I own MSB and am largely happy with it, but the examples don’t really cover enough of the ground I care about. Thanks!


Take any demos you hear with a grain of salt because AudioBro admirably allows the tables under the hood to be user adjustable. Meaning you can define how you'd like the transitions to behave and save those as the new "Auto" settings, using the tables in the scripts area of Kontakt.

Changes here (pictured) will change the way "fast" and "slow" transitions sound and whatever you hear from someone else could conceivably sound different if you simply adjust the curves on the tables.

Not saying this is everyone's "speed" (see what I did there? ) ... to adjust tables, but, anyone who wants to tweak the legato "auto" settings can do so and conceivably get whatever they want out of the source samples in terms of legato offset, transition volume and transition speed (independently, per note-to-note timing change).

Pretty rad, I'd say.


----------



## dzilizzi

Soundbed said:


> Take any demos you hear with a grain of salt because AudioBro admirably allows the tables under the hood to be user adjustable. Meaning you can define how you'd like the transitions to behave and save those as the new "Auto" settings, using the tables in the scripts area of Kontakt.
> 
> Changes here (pictured) will change the way "fast" and "slow" transitions sound and whatever you hear from someone else could conceivably sound different if you simply adjust the curves on the tables.
> 
> Not saying this is everyone's "speed" (see what I did there? ) ... to adjust tables, but, anyone who wants to tweak the legato "auto" settings can do so and conceivably get whatever they want out of the source samples in terms of legato offset, transition volume and transition speed (independently, per note-to-note timing change).
> 
> Pretty rad, I'd say.


I can see an option for sharing adjustments between users.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Evans said:


> Am I the only one (I know I'm not, I'm being silly) who rarely pays attention to demos and mostly cares about walkthroughs?
> 
> When Orchestral Tools releases a new library, for example, I don't usually jump to the "Audio demos" section. I primarily listen to the clips under the "Instruments" tab.
> 
> Full demo songs do a better job of showing me how skilled the writer is with orchestration and mixing than it does detailing the nuance of the library itself.



Well, I want to know how this library can sound with some EQ + proper placement/reverb treatment. Out of the box the sound is not quite there. So yeah, here I really think a demo would help much more than a walkthrough. I have seen the walkthroughs.


----------



## Soundbed

Trevor Meier said:


> Can someone with the 1.1 update try entering & exiting an ostinato with a legato phrase?
> 
> legato > ostinato > legato
> 
> In v1 it didn’t seem possible to get a smooth transition.


I was able to do it much more convincingly with the new 1.1 update.

I am working on a video demonstrating.

"pro tip" lol – one thing that I found (unique to my system? maybe?) was that rendering / bouncing / freezing (whatever your DAW calls it) the best attempt using the NEW ostinato release shaping controls (Release Timing and Release Extension) sounded even better than playing back "live."

again this result may be specific to my setup and maybe my audio driver latency settings etc. ... I have not taken the time yet to explore WHY yet.

but suffice it to say the *bounced audio* of ~legato > ostinato > legato~ sounded nearly perfect, even better than when I hit play and listened back in "realtime".


----------



## dxmachina

Paul Jelfs said:


> dxmachina, can I ask - do you not send out NFR copies to reviewers as a policy?


We don't have any official policy in that regard except that we do care (a lot) about the person doing such reviews. So it's just a case-by-base sort of evaluation with reviews.


----------



## CT

Paul Jelfs said:


> dxmachina, can I ask - do you not send out NFR copies to reviewers as a policy? I just think a library of this scope, with so much under the hood, really deserves a good walkthrough, really showing of its potential, as well as educating , in one deep dive video.


Yeah I agree. I still wonder if there's some massive untapped potential in MSB, because there just isn't that much to go on. Those official walkthroughs are in mono, seriously! MSS is better documented so far, but still feels like there should be even more demos, particularly where the strings are out in the open. Ah well.


----------



## Soundbed

Simon Ravn said:


> Well, I want to know how this library can sound with some EQ + proper placement/reverb treatment. Out of the box the sound is not quite there. So yeah, here I really think a demo would help much more than a walkthrough. I have seen the walkthroughs.


I have been able to make MSS sound similar to nearly any other stings library I own (approaching two dozen). It's very flexible. I know that does not help you exactly. But MSS is built for flexibility. So my opinion is that "some EQ + proper placement/reverb treatment" is a bit of a personal taste type of thing... I wish I could share all my experiments but when my brain is going for sound matching I tend to play garbage notes, and then people don't like the music, and when I work on making nice music I want to license it exclusively with a publisher so I don't want to release it publicly ... but I will see if I can share a couple more examples with some "treatment" and notes that sound "emotional enough" for those (many, including myself) who want to hear beautiful music and beautiful tone at the same time.


----------



## lettucehat

Evans said:


> Am I the only one (I know I'm not, I'm being silly) who rarely pays attention to demos and mostly cares about walkthroughs?
> 
> When Orchestral Tools releases a new library, for example, I don't usually jump to the "Audio demos" section. I primarily listen to the clips under the "Instruments" tab.
> 
> Full demo songs do a better job of showing me how skilled the writer is with orchestration and mixing than it does detailing the nuance of the library itself.


Sure, isolated demonstrations of patches are generally superior when that's an option, but right now we have about 3 seconds of the slowest, most promising legato setting. So as of now I think people are generally starved of any kind of "demonstration", whether that be a full orchestral arrangement or walkthrough putting the new features on display. I understand the most recent video is a quick overview of many many new settings but I would still hope some demo writers are at work right now on pieces showing off the new legato.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> I have been able to make MSS sound similar to nearly any other stings library I own (approaching two dozen). It's very flexible. I know that does not help you exactly. But MSS is built for flexibility. So my opinion is that "some EQ + proper placement/reverb treatment" is a bit of a personal taste type of thing... I wish I could share all my experiments but when my brain is going for sound matching I tend to play garbage notes, and then people don't like the music, and when I work on making nice music I want to license it exclusively with a publisher so I don't want to release it publicly ... but I will see if I can share a couple more examples with some "treatment" and notes that sound "emotional enough" for those (many, including myself) who want to hear beautiful music and beautiful tone at the same time.


Is MSS built for flexibility or is it built for tinkerers...? I would hope more than anything it is built for people that just want a great string library to play out of the box. I would wager most buyers want something that works out of the box, without a lot of fuss - both in terms of tone and in terms of realism. I'm glad AB decided to add "Auto" settings for all the new power user features (I mean modifying tables is cool but 99% of customers aren't going to want to mess with that).

Looking forward to some "out of the box" demos vs. ones that want to tweak every setting under the hood to try and get MSS to sound like another library. It is clear that MSS is powerful, but how easy is it to harness that power quickly? And of course, in the end, everything comes down to how it sounds (without needing to do a lot of processing - I'm paying for an engineered library, it should already sound amazing).


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> I have been able to make MSS sound similar to nearly any other stings library I own (approaching two dozen). It's very flexible. I know that does not help you exactly. But MSS is built for flexibility. So my opinion is that "some EQ + proper placement/reverb treatment" is a bit of a personal taste type of thing... I wish I could share all my experiments but when my brain is going for sound matching I tend to play garbage notes, and then people don't like the music, and when I work on making nice music I want to license it exclusively with a publisher so I don't want to release it publicly ... but I will see if I can share a couple more examples with some "treatment" and notes that sound "emotional enough" for those (many, including myself) who want to hear beautiful music and beautiful tone at the same time.


I agree , It's Bloomin great ( repeat joke I know) . It's so flexible you can do anything with it.


----------



## Evans

lettucehat said:


> Sure, isolated demonstrations of patches are generally superior when that's an option, but right now we have about 3 seconds of the slowest, most promising legato setting. So as of now I think people are generally starved of any kind of "demonstration", whether that be a full orchestral arrangement or walkthrough putting the new features on display. I understand the most recent video is a quick overview of many many new settings but I would still hope some demo writers are at work right now on pieces showing off the new legato.


I don't disagree that _more_ would be helpful. Just that "more" for me in such scenarios is closer to the side of "a few bars using different mics" than "Andy Blaney shows everyone up."

Perfect for me would be what OT does for their instruments but showing a couple of different mics.

And again, I said that's what I'm always looking for, not commandeering any developer's plans on putting out whatever they want for their different users.


----------



## lettucehat

Evans said:


> I don't disagree that _more_ would be helpful. Just that "more" for me in such scenarios is closer to the side of "a few bars using different mics" than "Andy Blaney shows everyone up."
> 
> Perfect for me would be what OT does for their instruments but showing a couple of different mics.
> 
> And again, I said that's what I'm always looking for, not commandeering any developer's plans on putting out whatever they want for their different users.


I agree. Performance Samples also does a good job with very quick contextual demos showing certain libraries and features being used in an appropriate way, and they've never misled me yet. Haven't bought a lot of OT libraries that had individual instrument demos, but obviously they do a very thorough job with both full track demonstrations and walkthroughs so it's not always an issue.


----------



## Evans

lettucehat said:


> I agree. Performance Samples also does a good job with very quick contextual demos showing certain libraries and features being used in an appropriate way, and they've never misled me yet. Haven't bought a lot of OT libraries that had individual instrument demos, but obviously they do a very thorough job with both full track demonstrations and walkthroughs so it's not always an issue.


I have admittedly rare use (a handful of times per year) for strings libraries and I don't get along well with the 8dio purchases I've made in the past (it's me, not them), but their Century Strings 2.0 page handles this in an interesting way.






Similar to PF, but a little more structured.


----------



## John Longley

Soundbed said:


> Take any demos you hear with a grain of salt because AudioBro admirably allows the tables under the hood to be user adjustable. Meaning you can define how you'd like the transitions to behave and save those as the new "Auto" settings, using the tables in the scripts area of Kontakt.
> 
> Changes here (pictured) will change the way "fast" and "slow" transitions sound and whatever you hear from someone else could conceivably sound different if you simply adjust the curves on the tables.
> 
> Not saying this is everyone's "speed" (see what I did there? ) ... to adjust tables, but, anyone who wants to tweak the legato "auto" settings can do so and conceivably get whatever they want out of the source samples in terms of legato offset, transition volume and transition speed (independently, per note-to-note timing change).
> 
> Pretty rad, I'd say.


I ended up buying it a few days ago. I actually thought it was a solid library as it was, but this new update is fantastic. Will take some time to master the new options, but it’s been great thus far.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Is MSS built for flexibility or is it built for tinkerers...?


This is an interesting question. I may have a bit of "sunk cost" into MSS already but here is a set of thoughts....

If one wants to simply play MSS without tinkering, one can start by using the Intuition patches.

Certainly not _trying_ to argue, but I would suggest that the premise of the distinction between a flexible library and one that invites "tinkering" might not be as useful as it might seem... because if a library is not flexible then the user has limited options to make it sound great.

For instance, I cannot make the Spitfire Solo Strings have an "infinite bow" legato, and the rebow crossfades seem to inevitably interrupt my melodies at the most inconvenient times. Flexible? Not as much as I'd like. Do I want to "tinker" with it? Not really... but I want to legato transition into a sustain for a couple seconds, without a crossfaded rebow interruption right when my phrase is about to finish. And I can't.

So I get what you're saying, but ... if the only choices were flexibility or tinkering then it might be a false dichotomy.

Because in that sense MSS (non- Intuition patches) is probably no different than all the other heavy hitters. Synchron Strings Pro has a bazillion articulations (and VSL has tons of string libraries). EWQL Hollywood Strings has a bazillion patches. 8Dio libraries tend to have multiple legatos / arcs etc. The list goes on.

CSS is maybe less "flexible" than some, I guess, but it takes a bit of "tinkering" to sound great (and on time) – or at least there's a learning curve such as knowing to use the marcato patch for quick runs and knowing there's only crossfade vibrato not "continuous" vibrato and velocity affects the shorts overlay (but it doesn't for CSW) and teaching yourself to play "ahead of the beat" so on... is learning and committing all that to memory also part of "tinkering"?

Again if one wants what MSS offers but also wants to start "simple," the Intuition patches are a great taste test. Maybe they will be offered separately someday. (...?) And when one decides they are interested in more "flexibility" to "tinker" with then the rest of the library opens up a lot of possibilities. Soloists, divisi and smaller sections, recorded XYZ stuff, (now) great legato, and so on.

I'll add to my list some comparisons with other major libs to see how many clicks it takes to make MSS sound like OT, Spitfire, Hollywood, CSS and so on. But might not be this week.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Certainly not _trying_ to argue, but I would suggest that the premise of the distinction between a flexible library and one that invites "tinkering" might not be as useful as it might seem... because if a library is not flexible then the user has limited options to make it sound great.


That is one way to look at it. The other way is that flexibility and sounding great are mutually exclusive aspects of a library, while tinkering is trying to change either of those because neither are good enough. Solo Spitfire Strings has a lot of flexibility in terms of articulations (and IMO sound great), but you want to modify the sustain loop point / crossfade it. That to me is tinkering. Modifying Kontakt script tables or legato offsets is tinkering.

A number of libraries have some flexibility (by way of articulations) and sound great out of the box. Some have less flexibility, but still sound great out to the box. Some have a lot of flexibility, and sound like sh*t out of the box. Where does MSS land?



Soundbed said:


> I'll add to my list some comparisons with other major libs to see how many clicks it takes to make MSS sound like OT, Spitfire, Hollywood, CSS and so on. But might not be this week.


See, this to me makes no sense. Do we aspire to make Spitfire sound like CSS or OT sound like Spitfire? No, they stand on their own. So why try to make MSS sound like other libraries? It should have enough merit to stand on its own and be a shining example amongst the crowd. If not, what's the point?


----------



## dzilizzi

ALittleNightMusic said:


> See, this to me makes no sense. Do we aspire to make Spitfire sound like CSS or OT sound like Spitfire? No, they stand on their own. So why try to make MSS sound like other libraries? It should have enough merit to stand on its own and be a shining example amongst the crowd. If not, what's the point?


Not necessarily to sound exactly alike but to be able to blend them. I personally like when I can easily blend libraries so I don't have to think about it. Truthfully, I don't like how MSS sounds right out of the box. But then I remember the reason I love SSS out of the box is the room. And I also realize the reason I don't really like the sound of MSS is because it is too close/dry. So to have a library that plays like MSS but that sounds like SSS would make me very happy. 

Oh wait, I wasn't going to buy anymore string libraries.*

*Does not include Sonokinetic's string library as I planned on that 2 years ago when I first knew about it


----------



## Wunderhorn

ALittleNightMusic said:


> See, this to me makes no sense. Do we aspire to make Spitfire sound like CSS or OT sound like Spitfire? No, they stand on their own. So why try to make MSS sound like other libraries? It should have enough merit to stand on its own and be a shining example amongst the crowd. If not, what's the point?



Blending, as dzilizzi said, but also to make it your own. It allows you to shape it to your own style, it won't be the "Audiobro sound" or "CSS sound" any more in the end, but merely serving _your_ composition.

Some libraries sound absolutely great out of the box, but you end up composing more for them instead of with them. With a workhorse string library like MSS I rather like the flexibility to shape it even if that means that at the core, out of the box, the instrument may seem a bit generic.

I am certain the more we get to know the instrument, the better we get at utilizing it, and be able to effectively craft expressive lines. The tools are there. And especially with this 1.1 update I feel empowered to do just about anything with it.


----------



## Vik

ALittleNightMusic said:


> See, this to me makes no sense. Do we aspire to make Spitfire sound like CSS or OT sound like Spitfire? No, they stand on their own. So why try to make MSS sound like other libraries? It should have enough merit to stand on its own and be a shining example amongst the crowd. If not, what's the point?


It seems to me, someone who (for now) still haven't been using any Audiobro libraries, that Audiobro just set a new standard in terms of listening to customer response and launching major improvements after some weeks. But Soundbed raises, IMO, a valid point, and it's probably not mainly about trying to make MSS sound like any other library. Having that option would be brilliant of course, and save VI-buyers some money.

But even if MSS now may be 'tinkered' to sound like a brilliant version of MSS 1.0, and maybe also make MSS get close to what some of the others do, another question lurks in the background: If [insert fav. string lib. here] offer great legatos without any tweaking, why should someone buy a library that sounds well *with* some tweaking?

At the moment, MSS is possibly the most tweakable string library (in terms of legato). It also does a lot of other stuff well. But does it sound as convincing, legato-vice, as eg. CSS/BS/SCS? And – whether it does or not – can it sounds as convincing as these, with some parameter tweaks? If the answer to this is yes, it potentially offers more than the competition, both due to the others stuff that MSS does which the others don't (weighed against what the others offer which MSS doesn't), because it sounds as good as the competition – and have all these built in ways to fine-tune and tweak stuff. 

If I wouldn't already have had several great string libraries, I would probably have bought MSS, for the reasons above. Not to emulate what what Orchestral Tools, Spitfire or others do well, but to get a library which both sounds great and is more tweakable than most others (in areas that are important to me), should I need it.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Here is an example of "out of the box", all the legato parameters are on auto, molto is on, and I am using Bloom (I realize that is not the best for all the articulation of the piece but, in general it works best to my ears for this kind of material). I turned off the conv in the mixer page.

I still can get some of the fast phrases sound good (I will tinker some more), and I think the close mics are far better to my ears than the mix, maybe some close+stage, but twice the ram.

There is some mild eq in the tracks to get rid of the mud and some spaces rev sends

close mics
View attachment Mahler 3rd - Close Mics.mp3

mix
View attachment Mahler 3rd - Mix.mp3


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Agree that "blending" would be useful - but I'm also interested in the standalone sound, because like @dzilizzi, at least with the current demos, it didn't wow me like something like Spitfire's sound does (or even the VSL demos - though I know not everybody agrees with me there).

And I do understand the idea that some, like you @Wunderhorn, want a library to serve as a blank canvas of sorts, where you can mould the sound precisely to how you want it to be (though I think this where you can spiral into tinkering - with EQs, and reverbs, etc). Honestly, LASS was like this and I think it turned off enough people that AB ended up adding those sound and stage presets. My hope was MSS might've taken a slightly different approach in terms of immediate out-of-the-box sound vs. relying on those "filters" to place upon the dry foundation.

And definitely, AudioBro has really impressed with how much attention they've paid to feedback, how extensive the update is in terms of functionality, and how quickly they've been able to turnaround such a large update.


----------



## Noc

Pablocrespo said:


> Here is an example of "out of the box", all the legato parameters are on auto, molto is on, and I am using Bloom (I realize that is not the best for all the articulation of the piece but, in general it works best to my ears for this kind of material). I turned off the conv in the mixer page.
> 
> I still can get some of the fast phrases sound good (I will tinker some more), and I think the close mics are far better to my ears than the mix, maybe some close+stage, but twice the ram.
> 
> There is some mild eq in the tracks to get rid of the mud and some spaces rev sends
> 
> close mics
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Close Mics.mp3
> 
> mix
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Mix.mp3


Fantastic work. The mix especially sounds so lovely here – not ashamed to say I got lost in it for a bit and had to remind myself it’s a VST, not an actual strings recording. I swear it could’ve been ripped straight from the score to some schmaltzy romantic movie and I wouldn’t have known the difference.


----------



## Soundbed

Here is completely "out of the box" legato. The video description says more about what I did. Dinner time at our house. I'll be back laters!

EDIT - the last pass seems "easier to watch" than the first pass, FWIW


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Here is completely "out of the box" legato. The video description says more about what I did. Dinner time at our house. I'll be back laters!
> 
> EDIT - the last pass seems "easier to watch" than the first pass, FWIW



Which legato type were you using? Bloom, normal, or bowed?


----------



## paulwr

LASS has been my workhorse since it came out. Here in Nashville, they want the smaller sizes and to not sound necessarily like a giant concert hall when doing song arrangements. The divisi is wonderful for that in particular. And for tv work, if there is a note about ambience, it is always about getting it less wet, not more. I love my Spitfire libraries and will blend them with LASS, but seldom on their own. I've had MSS for a few days now using it on a project and it is now beyond "so far, so good". This is smelling like a workhorse to me, I'm VERY happy with this purchase. I do have the extension and the update.


----------



## novaburst

Nice work from AB @dxmachina


----------



## mojamusic

paulwr said:


> LASS has been my workhorse since it came out. Here in Nashville, they want the smaller sizes and to not sound necessarily like a giant concert hall when doing song arrangements. The divisi is wonderful for that in particular. And for tv work, if there is a note about ambience, it is always about getting it less wet, not more. I love my Spitfire libraries and will blend them with LASS, but seldom on their own. I've had MSS for a few days now using it on a project and it is now beyond "so far, so good". This is smelling like a workhorse to me, I'm VERY happy with this purchase. I do have the extension and the update.


may we hear some examples of how you use the library?


----------



## Hans Adamson

Pablocrespo said:


> Here is an example of "out of the box", all the legato parameters are on auto, molto is on, and I am using Bloom (I realize that is not the best for all the articulation of the piece but, in general it works best to my ears for this kind of material). I turned off the conv in the mixer page.
> 
> I still can get some of the fast phrases sound good (I will tinker some more), and I think the close mics are far better to my ears than the mix, maybe some close+stage, but twice the ram.
> 
> There is some mild eq in the tracks to get rid of the mud and some spaces rev sends
> 
> close mics
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Close Mics.mp3
> 
> mix
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Mix.mp3


Beautiful piece.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Which legato type were you using? Bloom, normal, or bowed?


Normal only. A couple transitions might have two notes because I held the previous too long but didn’t turn divisi off.


----------



## Soundbed

Pablocrespo said:


> Here is an example of "out of the box", all the legato parameters are on auto, molto is on, and I am using Bloom (I realize that is not the best for all the articulation of the piece but, in general it works best to my ears for this kind of material). I turned off the conv in the mixer page.
> 
> I still can get some of the fast phrases sound good (I will tinker some more), and I think the close mics are far better to my ears than the mix, maybe some close+stage, but twice the ram.
> 
> There is some mild eq in the tracks to get rid of the mud and some spaces rev sends
> 
> close mics
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Close Mics.mp3
> 
> mix
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Mix.mp3


Great piece! A lot of bloom for sure...


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Normal only. A couple transitions might have two notes because I held the previous too long but didn’t turn divisi off.


Interesting - what was the legato transition speed set to? Was the molto vibrato on? Think the transitions weren't as smooth as the other example posted above. Quite abrupt in some places.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Pablocrespo said:


> Here is an example of "out of the box"
> 
> close mics
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Close Mics.mp3
> 
> mix
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Mix.mp3


I see, someone has been studying Mahler. Nice!
Yes, I think the "Bloom" is exactly what we were missing in 1.0
This changes - well, perhaps not everything - but a lot in terms of expressiveness. Now being able to switch easily between Bloom, Normal and Rebow is a very welcome feature which I will see myself using regularly.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Agree that "blending" would be useful - but I'm also interested in the standalone sound, because like @dzilizzi, at least with the current demos, it didn't wow me like something like Spitfire's sound does (or even the VSL demos - though I know not everybody agrees with me there).
> 
> And I do understand the idea that some, like you @Wunderhorn, want a library to serve as a blank canvas of sorts, where you can mould the sound precisely to how you want it to be (though I think this where you can spiral into tinkering - with EQs, and reverbs, etc). Honestly, LASS was like this and I think it turned off enough people that AB ended up adding those sound and stage presets. My hope was MSS might've taken a slightly different approach in terms of immediate out-of-the-box sound vs. relying on those "filters" to place upon the dry foundation.
> 
> And definitely, AudioBro has really impressed with how much attention they've paid to feedback, how extensive the update is in terms of functionality, and how quickly they've been able to turnaround such a large update.


Hmm. Yes, I see your points in this and your previous posts. 

I guess the out of the box MSS sound is (ultimately) refreshing for me, for underscore in particular. Except the cellos, which have some resonant frequencies that I like to dynamically cut (which is easy to do imho).

Bottom line for me is no piece leaves my studio without “mixing” and no matter how good they sound out of the box I always “mix” strings incl eq. So mixing MSS will be no different, for me. 

E.g., I use Soothe2 on LASS cellos and I’ll use Soothe2 on MSS cellos, so the workflow is unchanged for me. I use external reverb gently on LASS and I’ll use external reverb gently on MSS.

True, I do less EQ and don’t need external reverb on OT Teldex stuff. But those still go to my saturation buss and so forth, and MSS will too.

I also use dynamic EQ like Soothe2 on Spitfire in many cases.

As mentioned above getting drier versions requested is common in tv and media so my use cases push me away from overly wet libraries even if they sound great at first.

It sort of becomes a Pepsi taste test scenario, where it seems great at first but ultimately can be too sweet, and over time people want Coke even if it’s a little more dry.

I totally see how the out of the box sound is less impressive though. I did a bunch of fast runs today with MSS against the usual suspects and it’s got a clear simple tone esp in the violins. For fast runs it was “beating” Berlin Special Bows and Spitfire because it could “handle” the runs and not trip over itself or get bumpy. It was more like CSS in terms of agility but without the CSS vibrato. So, another tool in the toolbox, for me. The MSS violins need very little tweaking sonically other than some (saturation maybe, and) reverb.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Interesting - what was the legato transition speed set to? Was the molto vibrato on? Think the transitions weren't as smooth as the other example posted above. Quite abrupt in some places.


Auto was on by default, Molto was on by default, everything was default. The big difference was the other piece was all “Bloom” transitions, which was a little too bloomy for my taste after a while.

Any abrupt transitions could be automated slower, of course.


----------



## zolhof

I can't thank Audiobro enough for improving a library that I thought was excellent already. This is a solid update and the new legato options are really useful! I work for a control freak and this is right up our alley hehehe "It's in the details, man"

@dxmachina any plans for MSB? I'd think the newly acquired knowledge from this update could improve things in brass land as well.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Soundbed said:


> Any abrupt transitions could be automated slower, of course.


But you see, this is exactly that. With MSS you *can*. If you run into a situation like this where you feel the need to tweak a transition with another string library, you most likely can *not*. That's what I call not having to write _for_ the library.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Here, to keep things consistent with my previous posts:









MSS 1.1 Update Demos


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





This has versions of 1.0 and 1.1 to compare. The 1.0 versions were all made using the Norm legato type, but I included Bloom and Bowed to compare. Additionally, the Section A/B Only's were sans FC for the 1.1 update, because the solos are a bit louder in the viola and especially the cello, and I didn't have enough time to balance them. The differences between A and B are shown very nicely here, however!

Ozone 9's Maximizer has, since the beginning, been used to gain stage things quickly, but I noticed Kontakt defaulted each patch to 0.0db, and I reset each to -6.0db. This required a tinkering with the maximizer, so the volume of these files are comparably quieter than the comparisons. Oh well.

Settings are as follows:
• Molto turned on.
• Vibrato control turned on.
• Transition speed set to lowest, with auto turned off.
• Mics are Close and Stage, each set to 0.0db.
• Dynamic control is set to CC, with the dynamic smoothing turned on at the default 7%.
• All internal EQ and Sends are turned off.
• Auto divisi is turned off.

I have to say, with this update MSS has changed from a library I was excited to use, but for the slower, more adagio type writing, was intending to use primarily as a layer with CSS, to now an extremely usable and evocative library all on its own. Of course, I will definitely still experiment with layering (especially those sul tasto legatos!) with CSS, but it's really wonderful to know how well MSS can stand on its own.

For the record, MSB has fantastic legatos, and this is - if anything - an update that keeps MSS in line with that same quality.


----------



## mojamusic

This update sounds fantastic! Are there any demos of the solo instruments?


----------



## Simon Ravn

I agree that for playability, tweakability and flexibility MSS is groundbreaking! This is also why I really, really would love to use this! I am just still not convinced about a rather important element: The sound. Anxiously awaiting someone to do a contextual demo with full orchestra using MSS for the strings. Or just a really "cinematic" strings only snippet.


----------



## novaburst

zolhof said:


> can't thank Audiobro enough for improving a library that I thought was excellent already.


My thoughts exactly they certainly do strive for excellence


----------



## novaburst

Duncan Krummel said:


> MSS can stand on its own.


+ 1


----------



## Soundbed

Simon Ravn said:


> I agree that for playability, tweakability and flexibility MSS is groundbreaking! This is also why I really, really would love to use this! I am just still not convinced about a rather important element: The sound. Anxiously awaiting someone to do a contextual demo with full orchestra using MSS for the strings. Or just a really "cinematic" strings only snippet.


This was made before the 1.1 legato update, not sure if it helps? 
AudioBro MSS test: Avengers "One Way Trip" (Quick Test)


And this was before the molto update, does it help?


----------



## novaburst

Pablocrespo said:


> Here is an example of "out of the box", all the legato parameters are on auto, molto is on, and I am using Bloom (I realize that is not the best for all the articulation of the piece but, in general it works best to my ears for this kind of material). I turned off the conv in the mixer page.
> 
> I still can get some of the fast phrases sound good (I will tinker some more), and I think the close mics are far better to my ears than the mix, maybe some close+stage, but twice the ram.
> 
> There is some mild eq in the tracks to get rid of the mud and some spaces rev sends
> 
> close mics
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Close Mics.mp3
> 
> mix
> View attachment Mahler 3rd - Mix.mp3


Nice work I got very into this


----------



## dxmachina

Thanks for all the kind words here! Thrilled that you guys are enjoying this update. 



zolhof said:


> @dxmachina any plans for MSB? I'd think the newly acquired knowledge from this update could improve things in brass land as well.


Yes, we already have an early alpha of MSB running here with the latest engine changes. It will take quite a bit of work to update that library due to the somewhat insane number of individual instruments. That said, it will be well worth the effort. Right now we have to finish and release the 1.1 Expanded update which should see an equally seismic change to legato as the main library.


----------



## Toecutter

Simon Ravn said:


> I agree that for playability, tweakability and flexibility MSS is groundbreaking! This is also why I really, really would love to use this! I am just still not convinced about a rather important element: The sound. Anxiously awaiting someone to do a contextual demo with full orchestra using MSS for the strings. Or just a really "cinematic" strings only snippet.


My thoughts exactly. Still underwhelmed by the sound, which is the most important thing for me. I understand why some here are so emotionally invested, on paper this was the most exciting thing since CS2 came out but unlike CS2, I believe MSS lacks the body and character that a good strings section is instantly recognized for. I'm very thankful for the demos posted so far but I believe this is as good as it gets? The brass counterpart has been out for 2 years and other than ONE really impressive demo of the trumpets that could be a glitch in the Matrix, everything else I heard was very disappointing. CSS and CSB releases were pouring with great sounding demos. 2 months, 2 years, it shouldn't take this long for MSS and MSB?


----------



## Simon Ravn

Soundbed said:


> This was made before the 1.1 legato update, not sure if it helps?
> AudioBro MSS test: Avengers "One Way Trip" (Quick Test)
> 
> 
> And this was before the molto update, does it help?



Thanks a lot, that is actually very helpful and sounds quite promising, at least for this kind of music (Avengers cue). Struggles a bit more in the Lupin territory where it is more exposed.

That free OTT isn't half bad either. Thanks a lot - I missed this in this huge thread!


----------



## biomuse

Duncan Krummel said:


> Here, to keep things consistent with my previous posts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS 1.1 Update Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has versions of 1.0 and 1.1 to compare. The 1.0 versions were all made using the Norm legato type, but I included Bloom and Bowed to compare. Additionally, the Section A/B Only's were sans FC for the 1.1 update, because the solos are a bit louder in the viola and especially the cello, and I didn't have enough time to balance them. The differences between A and B are shown very nicely here, however!
> 
> Ozone 9's Maximizer has, since the beginning, been used to gain stage things quickly, but I noticed Kontakt defaulted each patch to 0.0db, and I reset each to -6.0db. This required a tinkering with the maximizer, so the volume of these files are comparably quieter than the comparisons. Oh well.
> 
> Settings are as follows:
> • Molto turned on.
> • Vibrato control turned on.
> • Transition speed set to lowest, with auto turned off.
> • Mics are Close and Stage, each set to 0.0db.
> • Dynamic control is set to CC, with the dynamic smoothing turned on at the default 7%.
> • All internal EQ and Sends are turned off.
> • Auto divisi is turned off.
> 
> I have to say, with this update MSS has changed from a library I was excited to use, but for the slower, more adagio type writing, was intending to use primarily as a layer with CSS, to now an extremely usable and evocative library all on its own. Of course, I will definitely still experiment with layering (especially those sul tasto legatos!) with CSS, but it's really wonderful to know how well MSS can stand on its own.
> 
> For the record, MSB has fantastic legatos, and this is - if anything - an update that keeps MSS in line with that same quality.


MSS 1.1 section B only Bloom + verb = game over. Hit out the dang park. I can’t hear much of any remaining appreciable advantage to CSS even for this genre.

@Duncan Krummel IF you have the time, could you engage switching of attack types to be phrase-appropriate, and EQ for a midrange-forward/mellow top in a CSS-like style? Because I think that would put the nail in the coffin for a great many doubters here. Not your job, but it seems like low-hanging fruit given what you’ve posted already.


----------



## [email protected]

samplin said:


> I love them, yes the update has new maps just drag them over


Hi, thanks, it seems that the old expression maps where replaced by the new ones.

By the way, I just wanted to reload the patches and now got this information:




And now the instruments looks like this.



What did I do wrong? :(


----------



## biomuse

Toecutter said:


> My thoughts exactly. Still underwhelmed by the sound, which is the most important thing for me. I understand why some here are so emotionally invested, on paper this was the most exciting thing since CS2 came out but unlike CS2, I believe MSS lacks the body and character that a good strings section is instantly recognized for. I'm very thankful for the demos posted so far but I believe this is as good as it gets? The brass counterpart has been out for 2 years and other than ONE really impressive demo of the trumpets that could be a glitch in the Matrix, everything else I heard was very disappointing. CSS and CSB releases were pouring with great sounding demos. 2 months, 2 years, it shouldn't take this long for MSS and MSB?


I‘ll admit to a certain degree of “investment” because I’m in the camp that admires and wants flexible, malleable tools, although I understand that’s not the only way of thinking about VIs (see: Goober Grape & The Need For Speed). Such flexibility is challenging to produce and it’s a bit harder to learn as a user, but in my experience the rewards are outsized over time, at least artistically.

From Duncan’s demos I’m hearing the sound I’d want right there for the EQing at least in some of the sections, and the sections do vary. A sounds chillier and more “cinematic,” B warmer and “artsier.”


----------



## samplin

Heres a very short example of MSS for those asking for out of box sounds... playng live no quantize etc.

Out Of the Box. default sends. default mix. added a little reverb (miracle)

3 phrases repeated ... Norm then Bloom

V1 Divisi Norm
V1. Divisi Bloom
Cello Legato Norm
Cello legato Bloom
V2 Legato Norm
V2 Legato Bloom


----------



## paulwr

Duncan Krummel said:


> Here, to keep things consistent with my previous posts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSS 1.1 Update Demos
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has versions of 1.0 and 1.1 to compare. The 1.0 versions were all made using the Norm legato type, but I included Bloom and Bowed to compare. Additionally, the Section A/B Only's were sans FC for the 1.1 update, because the solos are a bit louder in the viola and especially the cello, and I didn't have enough time to balance them. The differences between A and B are shown very nicely here, however!
> 
> Ozone 9's Maximizer has, since the beginning, been used to gain stage things quickly, but I noticed Kontakt defaulted each patch to 0.0db, and I reset each to -6.0db. This required a tinkering with the maximizer, so the volume of these files are comparably quieter than the comparisons. Oh well.
> 
> Settings are as follows:
> • Molto turned on.
> • Vibrato control turned on.
> • Transition speed set to lowest, with auto turned off.
> • Mics are Close and Stage, each set to 0.0db.
> • Dynamic control is set to CC, with the dynamic smoothing turned on at the default 7%.
> • All internal EQ and Sends are turned off.
> • Auto divisi is turned off.
> 
> I have to say, with this update MSS has changed from a library I was excited to use, but for the slower, more adagio type writing, was intending to use primarily as a layer with CSS, to now an extremely usable and evocative library all on its own. Of course, I will definitely still experiment with layering (especially those sul tasto legatos!) with CSS, but it's really wonderful to know how well MSS can stand on its own.
> 
> For the record, MSB has fantastic legatos, and this is - if anything - an update that keeps MSS in line with that same quality.


You know, while I do like the basic tone of the CSS a lot, the beautiful airy-ness to it, I feel if I did much with this the vibrato would begin to stand out too much. Even in this short of an example it does for me. The sound with the more subdued vibrato in MSS is indeed more modern. I feel as though I can nudge the MSS sound towards emulating the CSS sound more successfully than the reverse. And to put it in a blunt way, I think I can earn more money with MSS than with CSS. At least for string arrangements here in Nashville (not even that much country music, by the way) and for tv work. I have much more work to do with MSS before I would state this emphatically with raised fist.


----------



## Soundbed

paulwr said:


> You know, while I do like the basic tone of the CSS a lot, the beautiful airy-ness to it, I feel if I did much with this the vibrato would begin to stand out too much. Even in this short of an example it does for me. The sound with the more subdued vibrato in MSS is indeed more modern. I feel as though I can nudge the MSS sound towards emulating the CSS sound more successfully than the reverse. And to put it in a blunt way, I think I can earn more money with MSS than with CSS. At least for string arrangements here in Nashville (not even that much country music, by the way) and for tv work. I have much more work to do with MSS before I would state this emphatically with raised fist.


On the vibrato: Turning up the "Detune" knob on the front panel of MSS helps add even more lushness which sort of sounds like "more" vibrato when dialed in. Also some specialized tools like Soothe2 can actually bring out the vibrato more from MSS as well, strange as that may sound.



biomuse said:


> MSS 1.1 section B only Bloom + verb = game over. Hit out the dang park. I can’t hear much of any remaining appreciable advantage to CSS even for this genre. [...] could you engage switching of attack types to be phrase-appropriate [...]


Interesting to me that this group likes the sound of Bloom as a "style" ... I get a little seasick when it's used a lot but it might not be my bag of tea. I would have thought to use it sparingly but the couple examples people posted with it used exclusively have been received quite well. I find that interesting.


Simon Ravn said:


> Thanks a lot, that is actually very helpful and sounds quite promising, at least for this kind of music (Avengers cue). Struggles a bit more in the Lupin territory where it is more exposed.
> 
> That free OTT isn't half bad either. Thanks a lot - I missed this in this huge thread!


Agree it sounded remarkably close on the Avengers piece, and yes I was a little more challenged on the Lupin cue (esp the "strident" basses) ... I wonder if it sounds much different now with the 1.1 update, but I won't have time to try again "soon".


----------



## Soundbed

Uploaded a quick "fast run" example with Violins 1 for CSS, MSS, SSS and BS (but I only have sul tasto from the Special Bows aka Exp A) and their first chair / solo violin equivalents. I was a little surprised at the "boxy" sound of CSSS when I moved to the soloists.


----------



## FireGS

Soundbed said:


> Uploaded a quick "fast runs" example with Violins 1 for CSS, MSS, SSS and BS (but I only have sul tasto from the Special Bows aka Exp A) and their first chair / solo violin equivalents. I was a little surprised at the "boxy" sound of CSSS when I moved to the soloists.



Can I be honest and say literally **none** of those sounded good? It's not a knock against you, your playing, or methodology... Just... none of them sounded really good.


----------



## Soundbed

FireGS said:


> Can I be honest and say literally **none** of those sounded good? It's not a knock against you, your playing, or methodology... Just... none of them sounded really good.


Definitely! I was pretty curious about this particular use case and started the test for myself ... I think I was pretty critical at first (also) and then took a step back and started re-evaluating things more relatively and giving them better ratings.

So, I started rating them relative to each other.

I think CSS and MSS were consistently the best in group. And yet they sounded different to each other.

Interested in more opinions.

*EDIT - Of course the glaring omission* is that this run can also be performed by MSS using the recorded Scales feature! (But I need to move on to something else at the moment.)


----------



## FireGS

Soundbed said:


> Definitely! I was pretty curious about this particular use case and started the test for myself ... I think I was pretty critical at first (also) and then took a step back and started re-evaluating things more relatively and giving them better ratings.
> 
> So, I started rating them relative to each other.
> 
> I think CSS and MSS were consistently the best in group. And yet they sounded different to each other.
> 
> Interested in more opinions.


Considering how highly touted Spitfire Strings, and OT Strings tend to be, they sound like they're from a generation ago.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

FireGS said:


> Considering how highly touted Spitfire Strings, and OT Strings tend to be, they sound like they're from a generation ago.


Being new to this all, who do you think has the most current/contemporary/realistic sounding samples?


----------



## CT

Not really sure how Spitfire/OT string libraries sound like they're from a generation ago. They're well-recorded, and I expect we will see programming refinements/modernizations as both developers explore the potential of their own players in the future.

I think Spitfire and OT are also the two developers with the most consistently musical and realistic sounding orchestral samples, to the above question.


----------



## biomuse

Soundbed said:


> Interesting to me that this group likes the sound of Bloom as a "style" ... I get a little seasick when it's used a lot but it might not be my bag of tea. I would have thought to use it sparingly but the couple examples people posted with it used exclusively have been received quite well. I find that interesting.


It is indeed overused in the examples posted so far, but I think these were intended as technical demos of the articulation itself, at least in Duncan's case. Hopefully no one thinks that it's ok to use one attack type 100% of the time in a finished piece. What I took away from the examples was that, as one color on the palette, it's a nice color.


----------



## Soundbed

Mike T said:


> Not really sure how Spitfire/OT string libraries sound like they're from a generation ago. They're well-recorded, and I expect we will see programming refinements/modernizations as both developers explore the potential of their own players in the future.
> 
> I think Spitfire and OT are also the two developers with the most consistently musical and realistic sounding orchestral samples, to the above question.


The Berlin Strings examples used the latest release in the most updated SINE player. But the recordings were from 2014 and 2016 respectively IIRC. It might be unfair to use the Sul Tasto; I'm not sure if the Normale bowing is more agile.


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> The Berlin Strings examples used the latest release in the most updated SINE player. But the recordings were from 2014 and 2016 respectively IIRC. It might be unfair to use the Sul Tasto; I'm not sure if the Normale bowing is more agile.


Recordings don't age though, that's my point. At least good, modern recordings don't. The raw content is there for the libraries to get even better. But when something isn't recorded strongly, there's only so much one can do.


----------



## Evans

Mike T said:


> Recordings don't age though, that's my point. At least good, modern recordings don't. The raw content is there for the libraries to get even better. But when something isn't recorded strongly, there's only so much one can do.


Recordings don't age, but what was (or wasn't) recorded is important. See: Performance Samples using "performances derived from phrases," which wasn't always common for older releases.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Uploaded a quick "fast run" example with Violins 1 for CSS, MSS, SSS and BS (but I only have sul tasto from the Special Bows aka Exp A) and their first chair / solo violin equivalents. I was a little surprised at the "boxy" sound of CSSS when I moved to the soloists.



Thank you for doing this. For the sections, I thought the Intuition patches sounded quite bad - and the normal MSS tone wasn't much better (quite thin). CSS I think was the best. MSS (normal patch) fared much better with the solo violin IMO (along with Spitfire).


----------



## FireGS

Mike T said:


> Not really sure how Spitfire/OT string libraries sound like they're from a generation ago. They're well-recorded, and I expect we will see programming refinements/modernizations as both developers explore the potential of their own players in the future.
> 
> I think Spitfire and OT are also the two developers with the most consistently musical and realistic sounding orchestral samples, to the above question.


I'll rephrase - the performances possible from these libraries, as currently offered, sound last generation. There's a stiffness to those libraries, and unless you're playing slow, emotive lines that cater to the libraries strengths (as programmed, as offered), they dont sound that convincing, or like how a real section sounds.



Evans said:


> Recordings don't age, but what was (or wasn't) recorded is important. See: Performance Samples using "performances derived from phrases," which wasn't always common for older releases.


Kinda this. There's only so much that reprogramming existing content will do. If you want new functionality, it has to be recorded with that intent.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I wonder if SSS and Berlin would've sounded more convincing with slightly different MIDI programming? Programming for the library (vs. copying over an existing part).


----------



## Evans

FireGS said:


> There's only so much that reprogramming existing content will do. If you want new functionality, it has to be recorded with that intent.


Yep. Also see: ye olde "simulated legato."


----------



## karender

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I wonder if SSS and Berlin would've sounded more convincing with slightly different MIDI programming? Programming for the library (vs. copying over an existing part).


As far as i know, SSS has runs legato. He didn't show in the video. Also, Berlin Strings example was an expansion. Main library has faster legato options and blurred shorts, which is works great for runs.


----------



## AEF

biomuse said:


> MSS 1.1 section B only Bloom + verb = game over. Hit out the dang park. I can’t hear much of any remaining appreciable advantage to CSS even for this genre.
> 
> @Duncan Krummel IF you have the time, could you engage switching of attack types to be phrase-appropriate, and EQ for a midrange-forward/mellow top in a CSS-like style? Because I think that would put the nail in the coffin for a great many doubters here. Not your job, but it seems like low-hanging fruit given what you’ve posted already.


try comparing the shorts. CSS vastly superior.


----------



## dzilizzi

samplin said:


> Heres a very short example of MSS for those asking for out of box sounds... playng live no quantize etc.
> 
> Out Of the Box. default sends. default mix. added a little reverb (miracle)
> 
> 3 phrases repeated ... Norm then Bloom
> 
> V1 Divisi Norm
> V1. Divisi Bloom
> Cello Legato Norm
> Cello legato Bloom
> V2 Legato Norm
> V2 Legato Bloom


Well this is bad. I'm really liking this sound. 

Damn, the fence is getting really wobbly right now! If I break something falling off, it is going to get expensive.


----------



## dzilizzi

Soundbed said:


> Definitely! I was pretty curious about this particular use case and started the test for myself ... I think I was pretty critical at first (also) and then took a step back and started re-evaluating things more relatively and giving them better ratings.
> 
> So, I started rating them relative to each other.
> 
> I think CSS and MSS were consistently the best in group. And yet they sounded different to each other.
> 
> Interested in more opinions.
> 
> *EDIT - Of course the glaring omission* is that this run can also be performed by MSS using the recorded Scales feature! (But I need to move on to something else at the moment.)


I'm not sure about Spitfire, but Berlin does have a runs library and I want to say they may have runs in the extended articulations. 

I was actually impressed with the sound of CSS and I normally don't like its sound.


----------



## Soundbed

karender said:


> As far as i know, SSS has runs legato. He didn't show in the video. Also, Berlin Strings example was an expansion. Main library has faster legato options and blurred shorts, which is works great for runs.


The SSS runs for this MIDI was hilariously weird sounding, not worth showing. It doesn't seem to work when the direction changes. I put a tiny little note in the video. Attached them here. Also the "Performance Legato" did not sound better, to my ears.

I would be interested in hearing the Berlin Strings main library perform the phrase!


----------



## Soundbed

AEF said:


> try comparing the shorts. CSS vastly superior.


You don't like the MSS shorts?


----------



## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> I just wanted to reload the patches and now got this information:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And now the instruments looks like this.
> 
> 
> 
> What did I do wrong? :(


Do some of you have the same issue after updating the library? I checked with _Native Access_ but it seems that the problem lies elsewhere.


----------



## robgb

Mike T said:


> Recordings don't age though, that's my point. At least good, modern recordings don't


Which is exactly why my Kontakt version of Opus 1 VSL Orchestra still sounds excellent. And my Sonivox strings/brass/woodwinds. The advances made have not really been in the quality of the recordings but in the scripting that manipulates them.


----------



## geronimo

@ [email protected]
I think this situation is similar to yours; she should solve your problem. 









White GUI in Kontakt


If you find you are getting strange warping of the Spitfire user interface, or the GUI has disappeared as per the screenshot below: Go into the library folder in question and in there you will see ...




spitfireaudio.zendesk.com


----------



## Duncan Krummel

biomuse said:


> MSS 1.1 section B only Bloom + verb = game over. Hit out the dang park. I can’t hear much of any remaining appreciable advantage to CSS even for this genre.
> 
> @Duncan Krummel IF you have the time, could you engage switching of attack types to be phrase-appropriate, and EQ for a midrange-forward/mellow top in a CSS-like style? Because I think that would put the nail in the coffin for a great many doubters here. Not your job, but it seems like low-hanging fruit given what you’ve posted already.


Here's a go at this:









Request - CSS Matching


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





There's CSS, a version with MSS Section B, and a mixed version where some are A and others are B. This is a version mixed to my own personal preference given what I can do with this library in the box.

Section B Only has been changed to a Mix Mic + Close, with the Close mic at -5.0db, and the Brightness dial on each section down to 9 o'clock.

The mixed sections have the close back at 0.0db, but again with the Mix mic now (which combines Stage and Surround). I've also enabled the default, built in EQs for each of these mic signals, and again brought the Brightness down to 9 o'clock.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> The SSS runs for this MIDI was hilariously weird sounding, not worth showing. It doesn't seem to work when the direction changes. I put a tiny little note in the video. Attached them here. Also the "Performance Legato" did not sound better, to my ears.
> 
> I would be interested in hearing the Berlin Strings main library perform the phrase!


This is what performance legato for violins 1 in SSS sounds like for me. Not too weird IMO.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I wonder if SSS and Berlin would've sounded more convincing with slightly different MIDI programming? Programming for the library (vs. copying over an existing part).


I did change the MIDI when I thought it could help. Here are some other attempts with Spitfire Symphonic and different MIDI to change between bowed / fingered / port on the bottom notes of the pattern.

View attachment SSS runs attempts.mp4


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> This is what performance legato for violins 1 in SSS sounds like for me. Not too weird IMO.


Are you separating the notes at the end (i.e., not legato "connected")?

EDIT

The "weird" comment was for the runs patch (which I posted above here).

The Performance legato was simply "not better" than the legacy that I'd posted.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Are you separating the notes at the end (i.e., not legato "connected")?
> 
> The "weird" comment was for the runs patch.
> 
> The Performance legato was simply "not better" than the legacy that I'd posted.


Should be legato throughout, but I might've forgotten to overlap all of them on the last run up.


----------



## dzilizzi

Didn't Christian once say he used tremolo for runs? It could have been for another library that didn't have legato.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Should be legato throughout, but I might've forgotten to overlap all of them on the last run up.


If they're separated, that might be the trick to making them more convincing, thanks!


----------



## Soundbed

dzilizzi said:


> Didn't Christian once say he used tremolo for runs? It could have been for another library that didn't have legato.


I remember doing that once and a collaborator laughed at me, lol!


----------



## FireGS

ALittleNightMusic said:


> This is what performance legato for violins 1 in SSS sounds like for me. Not too weird IMO.


That sounds nothing like legato. That sounds like every note is a very fast bow change, like they're trying to saw wood


----------



## paulwr

Appreciate all the work being done here showing examples and comparisons. What I like to do.... ha, and have little time for.... is to take a section of music, and do my absolute best using everything a library has to offer and do the same with another library. That way I don't bump into the problem of the midi response being different in each library. And then, of course, to carry this through you'd want to treat it with possible eq and your best space/reverb plugins if we're going to get to the bottom line. And finally factor in the time it took to get there with each library and then I guess it would be time for the end of the semester final grade!


----------



## novaburst

paulwr said:


> the midi response being different in each library.


I still cant believe people are still doing this, its so obvious, i no its a pain but each example needs to be played in live, and not to use the same midi file for all examples


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> I still cant believe people are still doing this, its so obvious, i no its a pain but each example needs to be played in live, and not to use the same midi file for all examples


Depends on what you're trying to accomplish and what you expect to learn.


----------



## Vik

novaburst said:


> I still cant believe people are still doing this, its so obvious, i no its a pain but each example needs to be played in live, and not to use the same midi file for all examples


I think what he meant was was that one was editing the original MIDI data (CC1, vibrato etc) in order to avoid the problem with using the same MIDI file for all examples. Sometimes, editing a MIDI file with CC data ends up sounding more believable then trusting one's ability to play in all these data in real time.


----------



## karender

Soundbed said:


> The SSS runs for this MIDI was hilariously weird sounding, not worth showing. It doesn't seem to work when the direction changes. I put a tiny little note in the video. Attached them here. Also the "Performance Legato" did not sound better, to my ears.
> 
> I would be interested in hearing the Berlin Strings main library perform the phrase!


Here are some quick runs with Berlin Strings. Better than nothing. Might be better with additional work.
Agile legato;
View attachment BS agile legato.mp3

fast runs legato;
View attachment BS fast runs legato.mp3

blurred spiccato + fast runs legato;
View attachment BS Blurred spicc+runs.mp3


I never saw a library that can handle playable runs yet. None. I'm glad MSS has recorded runs for individual sections. Other run libraries are usually full ensemble recordings or violins+viola combined recordings.

I would like to hear these with MSS scale and runs articulations.


----------



## Vik

Soundbed said:


>



String libraries are generally very different from each other. Berlin Stings (full) has espressivo (+ a vibrato level which is very intense at full setting for the regular, non-espressivo instruments), Performance Samples has con moto ('with movement'), SSS has 'Rach', and even CSS has some degree of con moto... so, comparing phrases which don't rely on the same articulation, or the degree of it (or even vibrato), or the same artic but done in a different way, will make things sound quite different wether it's fast runs or not. Mic position differences also mean a lot. So comparisons like these may, IMHO, potentially give a false negative impression of some of the libraries.

ETA: I made a fast run comparison (a 'bloody fast runs' comparison, actually!) a while ago, trying hard to give the different libraries identical 'conditions', but I still couldn't offer justice to all the libraries, and for a couple of the libraries, I certainly needed more time to make things sound OK than with the others. Being scientific about about creating such comparison ain't easy, it's rather impossible. 

The last note in the last example suffers the most from this:


----------



## Soundbed

karender said:


> Here are some quick runs with Berlin Strings. Better than nothing. Might be better with additional work.
> Agile legato;
> View attachment BS agile legato.mp3
> 
> fast runs legato;
> View attachment BS fast runs legato.mp3
> 
> blurred spiccato + fast runs legato;
> View attachment BS Blurred spicc+runs.mp3
> 
> 
> I never saw a library that can handle playable runs yet. None. I'm glad MSS has recorded runs for individual sections. Other run libraries are usually full ensemble recordings or violins+viola combined recordings.
> 
> I would like to hear these with MSS scale and runs articulations.


Great, thanks!

Here's MSS Recorded Scales with the Smooth dial near default, then all the way counterclockwise (more definition) and clockwise (blurry).

View attachment MSS Recorded Runs.mp4


I also played with layering shorts and those help too – but then, we are expanding the playing field (meaning: any of the libraries could layer shorts, if desired).

BTW the recorded octaves runs sound very good in MSS, IMHO ... here's my quick demo of them:


----------



## Soundbed

Vik said:


> String libraries are generally very different from each other. Berlin Stings (full) has espressivo (+ a vibrato level which is very intense at full setting for the regular, non-espressivo instruments)), Performance Samples has con moto ('with movement'), SSS has 'Rach', and even CSS has some degree of con moto... so, comparing phrases which don't rely on the same articulation, or the degree of it (or even vibrato), or the same artic but done in a different way, will make things sound quite different wether it's fast runs or not. Mic position differences also mean a lot. So comparisons like these may, IMHO, potentially give a false negative impression of some of the libraries.


Yep of course, good to point that out, thanks!

So the intent of this 'shootout' was to help me answer the question: "if this was the type of figure one wanted to write, which library would spring to mind as the most capable, and sound the best, with the least amount of fiddling?"

I didn't include Con Moto because it didn't have a first chair, but I'll bet it sounds really good for this run.

My intent wasn't to give a negative impression, but to gain a little perspective when evaluating ... and help others as well, if possible. I like having all these choices, and making these examples / comparisons helps me explore my tools and I enjoy discussing the products with y'all. I know some people don't love isolated examples or 'shoutouts' as much as demos (it's a good thing @Duncan Krummel is carrying along) and I personally treat these experiment with a dash of salt, too.

For the mic positions, I was riding the line between the discussion in the previous pages for "out of the box sound" versus ... twiddling? tweaking? what was it? fiddling? can't remember. Anyway I mostly started with out of the box default settings, and only made minor adjustments when it seemed necessary. I was probably unfair to Berlin using the Sul Tastos, and to some extent Symphonic Strings although I still "struggle" with them on fast parts, I guess.


----------



## AEF

Soundbed said:


> You don't like the MSS shorts?


Not particularly. They seem pretty mechanical, not very dynamic, harsh yet undefined.

Compared to CSS they are seriously lacking in realism.


----------



## Noeticus

AEF said:


> Not particularly. They seem pretty mechanical, not very dynamic, harsh yet undefined.
> 
> Compared to CSS they are seriously lacking in realism.


Not to be a contrarian, but MSS are actual recordings of real instruments.


----------



## SquirrelMan

The shorts also have a tightness setting so you can loosen them up if you think they're so tight that they sound artificial.


----------



## BasariStudios

Has anyone tried just Loading a Patch and without touching anything
switch to Bowed Legato...then play. The first note has so much Attack
and Volume and then everything Drops down pretty bad.
Another things...what about the Attack Modes in this version?


----------



## AEF

SquirrelMan said:


> The shorts also have a tightness setting so you can loosen them up if you think they're so tight that they sound artificial.


Makes little to no difference. Loosest setting, still really mediocre compared to other offerings.


----------



## AEF

Noeticus said:


> Not to be a contrarian, but MSS are actual recordings of real instruments.


so are hundreds of other libraries that dont sound good. the included kontakt ancient vsl strings are real recordings, and they sound terrible.


----------



## lettucehat

AEF said:


> so are hundreds of other libraries that dont sound good. the included kontakt ancient vsl strings are real recordings, and they sound terrible.


I think you meant to say "and that's why all libraries sound amazing!"


----------



## robh

BasariStudios said:


> Has anyone tried just Loading a Patch and without touching anything
> switch to Bowed Legato...then play. The first note has so much Attack
> and Volume and then everything Drops down pretty bad.
> Another things...what about the Attack Modes in this version?


Yes. It disappears when you toggle Molto off though. Best if we both report to Audiobro, I think.

Edit: Hm. The more I play the less I hear the jarring attack. I wonder if we are victims of samples not fully loaded yet?


----------



## BasariStudios

robh said:


> Yes. It disappears when you toggle Molto off though. Best if we both report to Audiobro, I think.
> 
> Edit: Hm. The more I play the less I hear the jarring attack. I wonder if we are victims of samples not fully loaded yet?


I will do some more resea4xh tonight. Let's see.
Unless as you said...redownloading.
I will record some demo too.


----------



## BasariStudios

This is what mine sounds like...i tried few things, even turning MOLTO off.
Remember, everything you hear is Legato Overlaped.


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> I still cant believe people are still doing this, its so obvious, i no its a pain but each example needs to be played in live, and not to use the same midi file for all examples


It's 98% off topic but I wanted to share these AKD videos where she clicked everything in, copied MIDI across strings libraries, and made some mockups of LOTR.

Myths were dispelled IMHO.


Click it in? Sure.
Blend libraries and sound convincing? Sure.
Drag copy MIDI across strings libraries? Sure.

She has previous videos where she shows how her template is set up.

Here is one place where she mentions WHY she was clicking things in...



And here's the exact moment in the second one where she says "and then copy > pasted them" for the strings parts.


----------



## Evans

BasariStudios said:


> This is what mine sounds like...i tried few things, even turning MOLTO off.
> Remember, everything you hear is Legato Overlaped.


I am unfortunately on just a phone with not even ear buds at the moment, but I think I heard something similar when testing Violins 1, bow change, with speed alllll the way down. Not realistic for long lines.


----------



## Soundbed

BasariStudios said:


> This is what mine sounds like...i tried few things, even turning MOLTO off.
> Remember, everything you hear is Legato Overlaped.


Yes I mentioned this – in different words – to AudioBro ... it can "work" as a bowed transition in context but it's more like an accent. Doesn't sound like a defined "bow change". Con Moto pretty much set the standard for bow changes, for me. But this still works if you pay less attention to the label "bowed" and listen to how to use it (at least that's what I'll be doing).


----------



## Soundbed

Vik said:


> ETA: I made a fast run comparison (a 'bloody fast runs' comparison, actually!) a while ago, trying hard to give the different libraries identical 'conditions', but I still couldn't offer justice to all the libraries, and for a couple of the libraries, I certainly needed more time to make things sound OK than with the others. Being scientific about about creating such comparison ain't easy, it's rather impossible.
> 
> The last note in the last example suffers the most from this:



Looks like you may have edited your post, so I missed your Soundcloud examples at first. No worries, I edit my posts all the time. Something about hitting "Post reply" makes me think of "one more thing" to say.

Yes I agree runs are difficult to pull off. Because MSS has the octave runs and the scales runs, the figures I'm most interested in NOW are like the one I tried and @ALittleNightMusic played, where the direction changes (up up up down up up up down or more complicated). I have a couple runs packages now, and I still almost always find myself wanting figures they cannot do. Either it's whole tones I want (which MSS has recorded) or some weird scale / pattern that isn't major or minor and like you (or someone else) said isn't "high strings" etc.

I do have some Harry Potter scores lying around, some day I'll try to see what the MSS strings sound like performing them VS CSS and Con Moto, but I sort of dread the tedium of it all, haha!


----------



## CT

Evans said:


> Recordings don't age, but what was (or wasn't) recorded is important. See: Performance Samples using "performances derived from phrases," which wasn't always common for older releases.


Yeah, but don't underestimate what's been recorded, or rather, overestimate what needs to have been recorded to get things to a more modern standard. Look at what was possible with some simple transition tweaking in LASS, or what another community member is doing with Adagio... there is incredible, well-recorded content in some of these older collections and I think we're going to see a lot of it take on a new shine in the near future, whether at the hands of the developers themselves or committed users.

In fact, barring a couple upcoming new things, it's in this refining of older tools that most of my current VI excitement is centered.


----------



## John Longley

Mike T said:


> Yeah, but don't underestimate what's been recorded, or rather, overestimate what needs to have been recorded to get things to a more modern standard. Look at what was possible with some simple transition tweaking in LASS, or what another community member is doing with Adagio... there is incredible, well-recorded content in some of these older collections and I think we're going to see a lot of it take on a new shine in the near future, whether at the hands of the developers themselves or committed users.
> 
> In fact, barring a couple upcoming new things, it's in this refining of older tools that most of my current VI excitement is centered.


I really want you to be right, but it’s not really the way people do business anymore. At least not as a model. New, shorter product cycles keep the lights on. I hope I’m wrong. I’d love to see a bunch of amazing stuff showing it’s age get a refresh.


----------



## Soundbed

Mike T said:


> Yeah, but don't underestimate what's been recorded, or rather, overestimate what needs to have been recorded to get things to a more modern standard. Look at what was possible with some simple transition tweaking in LASS, or what another community member is doing with Adagio... there is incredible, well-recorded content in some of these older collections and I think we're going to see a lot of it take on a new shine in the near future, whether at the hands of the developers themselves or committed users.
> 
> In fact, barring a couple upcoming new things, it's in this refining of older tools that most of my current VI excitement is centered.


Can you link the Adagio thread? I have them all (incl the updates that look like Anthology) and try to use them occasionally but I always think of them as "scratchy" and/or "woozy" ... but I know there are some nice things done with them, by others. I feel like maybe I don't know how to take best advantage of them.


----------



## robh

BasariStudios said:


> This is what mine sounds like...i tried few things, even turning MOLTO off.
> Remember, everything you hear is Legato Overlaped.


Did you turn off Auto Arranger? It's on by default and can give weird results if you play 'normally'.


----------



## BasariStudios

robh said:


> Did you turn off Auto Arranger? It's on by default and can give weird results if you play 'normally'.


If you mean AutoDivisi yes, i tried both ways, same.


----------



## novaburst

Vik said:


> I think what he meant was was that one was editing the original MIDI data (CC1, vibrato etc) in order to avoid the problem with using the same MIDI file for all examples. Sometimes, editing a MIDI file with CC data ends up sounding more believable then trusting one's ability to play in all these data in real time.





Soundbed said:


> Depends on what you're trying to accomplish and what you expect to learn.


I think it would be OK if the note was moved to the correct trigger point but that in it self could be more time consuming, 

The issue with putting a different library on the exact same MIDI file is the notes are not being played at the preferred trigger point, 

So it just feels like the note is jumping in to soon or the note could have been played later, especially on slow legato lines the swell or ramp feels like it started a few milliseconds late or early 

Where as if the melody line was being played in live the player can adjust for the trigger point bringing about a better feel for any library being used, 

The midi file may go very well with a certain library but sounds bad with another


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> I do have some Harry Potter scores lying around, some day I'll try to see what the MSS strings sound like performing them VS CSS and Con Moto, but I sort of dread the tedium of it all, haha!


Btw, I noticed you're a fellow Studio One user and I just learned a MIDI editor trick that might be helpful in case you didn't know it, especially for programming runs. If you hold Opt+Cmd down you can drag out the mouse and it'll keep inputting notes based on the quantization value. Coupled this with the scale lock feature, I found it very easy to quickly throw down a run pattern.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Simon Ravn said:


> I agree that for playability, tweakability and flexibility MSS is groundbreaking! This is also why I really, really would love to use this! I am just still not convinced about a rather important element: The sound. Anxiously awaiting someone to do a contextual demo with full orchestra using MSS for the strings. Or just a really "cinematic" strings only snippet.


Hey, so since no one's posted a contextual user demo yet, I spent a portion of today dropping MSS into a previous demo for a documentary I worked on. Originally CSS (surprise), I spent some time massaging MSS and the MIDI data, so this should be a much fairer comparison. I've also included a strings only file. Hope this helps!









Request - Contextual


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


----------



## robh

BasariStudios said:


> If you mean AutoDivisi yes, i tried both ways, same.


Haha! Yes I meant AutoDivisi. Blame it on Covid-fog-brain.
Although I can get something similar to your audio file, something sounds off in yours that's better (not perfect) on my end.

I'll have to test some more tomorrow.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Btw, I noticed you're a fellow Studio One user and I just learned a MIDI editor trick that might be helpful in case you didn't know it, especially for programming runs. If you hold Opt+Cmd down you can drag out the mouse and it'll keep inputting notes based on the quantization value. Coupled this with the scale lock feature, I found it very easy to quickly throw down a run pattern.


holy bovine that’s an awesome trick thank you! Can’t wait to try it tomorrow!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> holy bovine that’s an awesome trick thank you! Can’t wait to try it tomorrow!


Studio One is full of golden nuggets like that


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Duncan Krummel said:


> Hey, so since no one's posted a contextual user demo yet, I spent a portion of today dropping MSS into a previous demo for a documentary I worked on. Originally CSS (surprise), I spent some time massaging MSS and the MIDI data, so this should be a much fairer comparison. I've also included a strings only file. Hope this helps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Request - Contextual
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


Honestly, better than their official demos.


----------



## Soundbed

Duncan Krummel said:


> Hey, so since no one's posted a contextual user demo yet, I spent a portion of today dropping MSS into a previous demo for a documentary I worked on. Originally CSS (surprise), I spent some time massaging MSS and the MIDI data, so this should be a much fairer comparison. I've also included a strings only file. Hope this helps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Request - Contextual
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


Fantastic


----------



## novaburst

Duncan Krummel said:


> Hey, so since no one's posted a contextual user demo yet, I spent a portion of today dropping MSS into a previous demo for a documentary I worked on. Originally CSS (surprise), I spent some time massaging MSS and the MIDI data, so this should be a much fairer comparison. I've also included a strings only file. Hope this helps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Request - Contextual
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


crazy good,some good writing too


----------



## Simon Ravn

I think what I am hearing both in some of the examples coming out here and also the Expanded Legato library that I bought that troubles me the most is a sometimes stale, metallic, almost phasing sound going on. And also quite a few notes have very bad attacks, where the players "scoop" into the note and it just ruins it. Without offending anyone I just think the main problem with these recordings might be musicians not being top notch. And I know when you do these things you probably don't know how the ensemble works together before you get them together and start recording!

I am not writing off the library - I might end up buying the main library as well, because there are a lot of possibilities in it, also regarding layering. But out in their own, exposed, it sometimes sounds a bit like a student string section with too much of a stale playing style and intonation not quite being there.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Duncan Krummel said:


> Hey, so since no one's posted a contextual user demo yet, I spent a portion of today dropping MSS into a previous demo for a documentary I worked on. Originally CSS (surprise), I spent some time massaging MSS and the MIDI data, so this should be a much fairer comparison. I've also included a strings only file. Hope this helps!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Request - Contextual
> 
> 
> Shared with Dropbox
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dropbox.com


That's very nice! A bit too much verb for my liking especially on the shorts but a pretty nice and full sound otherwise! A few of the problems with "bad playing" stick out towards the end though with a pretty stale, metallic sound in the sustains.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Simon Ravn said:


> That's very nice! A bit too much verb for my liking especially on the shorts but a pretty nice and full sound otherwise! A few of the problems with "bad playing" stick out towards the end though with a pretty stale, metallic sound in the sustains.


Thanks! Should be noted that part of that metallic sound in the final chord is because it moves to senza vib. That'll of course just sound more metallic. CSS responded similarly in the original version, but decrescendoed out of the foreground before it got in the way. MSS has more presence overall - so it was more pronounced during this decrescendo - and less vibrato - so it moved from vib. to senza vib. more quickly.

It could also have been the particular reverb choice! I didn't change any of that around from the original, though I did take off the exciter that had been used on CSS for some top end sheen. MSS doesn't need it here.


----------



## AEF

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thanks! Should be noted that part of that metallic sound in the final chord is because it moves to senza vib. That'll of course just sound more metallic. CSS responded similarly in the original version, but decrescendoed out of the foreground before it got in the way. MSS has more presence overall - so it was more pronounced during this decrescendo - and less vibrato - so it moved from vib. to senza vib. more quickly.
> 
> It could also have been the particular reverb choice! I didn't change any of that around from the original, though I did take off the exciter that had been used on CSS for some top end sheen. MSS doesn't need it here.


Could you send the CSS version?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

AEF said:


> Could you send the CSS version?


Don’t want to add the file, since it’s streamable, so here’s a link!


----------



## Eptesicus

Duncan Krummel said:


> Don’t want to add the file, since it’s streamable, so here’s a link!




I think both versions are good. Not much in it really with the rest of the instrumentation there.

Cool bit of music by the way! Really enjoyed it.


----------



## Soundbed

Simon Ravn said:


> I think what I am hearing both in some of the examples coming out here and also the Expanded Legato library that I bought that troubles me the most is a sometimes stale, metallic, almost phasing sound going on. And also quite a few notes have very bad attacks, where the players "scoop" into the note and it just ruins it. Without offending anyone I just think the main problem with these recordings might be musicians not being top notch. And I know when you do these things you probably don't know how the ensemble works together before you get them together and start recording!
> 
> I am not writing off the library - I might end up buying the main library as well, because there are a lot of possibilities in it, also regarding layering. But out in their own, exposed, it sometimes sounds a bit like a student string section with too much of a stale playing style and intonation not quite being there.


I'm not 100% certain, but I think Soothe2 is what helps me (personally) with what you're calling the metallic sound. I bought it originally for use with LASS (which I mentioned before, not trying to repeat myself).

Again I know it pains people who dish out a lot for a library to then feel conflicted, paying for expensive magic tools to help mix those libraries. But I chalk it up to learning some mixing tricks from top mixers and getting the tools they are using to make their jobs quicker and adding them to my studio. In other words I don't *always* expect to pay for libraries that were recorded / mixed by Simon Rhodes or Shawn Murphy or Dennis Sands.

About the playing specifically, I think MSS works best as the sections come together and brass and other instrument groups start getting added. There are some articulations and sections that sound great isolated but I agree some exposed individual parts don't have the "wow" factor, until you start building things up. Every time I've gotten more parts added and brass in there things really start springing to life, and MSS starts living up to its name as a scoring tool.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Getting away from the Legato argument / opinions for a second. 

Do users who have bought this feel it ADDS something to their tool box. Does the library do things either better, or completely new , that other libraries do not for example. 

Does it help you get across in your music, things you maybe could not do before? 

I realise the ostinato feature is pretty cool - How about the other features - Putting aside the legato for a second, do all the features add up , usefulness , that you are glad you invested in this library regardless of if you are disappointed or not with the sound/ legato. 

Those that have bought it - Would you buy it again , now you have had it for a few weeks ?


----------



## Paul Jelfs

One more thing. Due you feel the expanded legato is worth getting, or can wait ?


----------



## Simon Ravn

Soundbed said:


> I'm not 100% certain, but I think Soothe2 is what helps me (personally) with what you're calling the metallic sound. I bought it originally for use with LASS (which I mentioned before, not trying to repeat myself).
> 
> Again I know it pains people who dish out a lot for a library to then feel conflicted, paying for expensive magic tools to help mix those libraries. But I chalk it up to learning some mixing tricks from top mixers and getting the tools they are using to make their jobs quicker and adding them to my studio. In other words I don't *always* expect to pay for libraries that were recorded / mixed by Simon Rhodes or Shawn Murphy or Dennis Sands.
> 
> About the playing specifically, I think MSS works best as the sections come together and brass and other instrument groups start getting added. There are some articulations and sections that sound great isolated but I agree some exposed individual parts don't have the "wow" factor, until you start building things up. Every time I've gotten more parts added and brass in there things really start springing to life, and MSS starts living up to its name as a scoring tool.


I do use soothe on the MSS sordinos, it cant really remove the problems completely. Help, yes, but still. Also intonation/attack problems etc wont be solved by any plug-in....


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I should've bought Soothe 2 at the recent Easter sale...but there's also something to be said about why use a plugin to get the strings to sound the way you want them to sound. I don't really do that with CSS, SSS, or Synchron Strings.

The new Opus demo string stem also sounds, to me, much nicer than MSS. Not to mention those BSS demos I've been revisiting. Lot of competition to choose from.


----------



## Evans

There was a damn Easter sale? Ah, Christ.


----------



## Soundbed

Paul Jelfs said:


> Getting away from the Legato argument / opinions for a second.
> 
> Do users who have bought this feel it ADDS something to their tool box. Does the library do things either better, or completely new , that other libraries do not for example.
> 
> Does it help you get across in your music, things you maybe could not do before?
> 
> I realise the ostinato feature is pretty cool - How about the other features - Putting aside the legato for a second, do all the features add up , usefulness , that you are glad you invested in this library regardless of if you are disappointed or not with the sound/ legato.
> 
> Those that have bought it - Would you buy it again , now you have had it for a few weeks ?


*Adds to my toolbox?* Yes.

*Do things better?* Yes:

divisi sections recorded octaves, scales, and ostinatos for the first time in my collection.
Also I really like the violins better than most of my other violins, and I'm not usually a violin fan. 
Not necessarily "better" but "different: MSS does almost everything CSS does for me, about as well as CSS, but without the extra vibrato that sometimes just makes me feel too "trembling" when I want a less "quivering" emotional delivery.
Also I've never been able to play large chords and have them auto divisi with poly legato and sound good with a single mod wheel pass on everything like I can with MSS. I have tried with many others and they've never sounded as "finished" on the first pass as MSS does.
*Things I could not do before? *I have tons of strings libraries already so I probably could do most of what MSS can do with what I already had. But MSS feels like more of a "workhorse" and I know I'll be able to use it for virtually any situation, whereas before I always felt I needed to choose strings libraries for their strengths. With MSS, I can simply choose it and get to work without worrying if I'm going to run into a place where it cannot accomplish something.

*Am I glad I invested [...] regardless of [...] sound/ legato?* Well I didn't really need it. I don't get glad by spending money; I get glad by making money. So ask me in a couple years when my royalties start coming in from pieces I wrote with MSS. =)

*Do I feel the expanded legato is worth getting? *All my answers above were predicated on the fact that I got the bundle with the expanded legato; that is part of what I meant by being able to do whatever I wanted – with the whole package.

That said I will still use Tundra and the Westsood Untamed series and some of the aleatoric/weird arts in SCS and LCO, even BDT, and I still will use LASS Cello shorts and Ark 1 low strings shorts because they're awesome, Ark 2 for it's uber smooth and warm tone, Josh Bell and so on.



Simon Ravn said:


> I do use soothe on the MSS sordinos, it cant really remove the problems completely. Help, yes, but still. Also intonation/attack problems etc wont be solved by any plug-in....


I think I hear intonation / attack problems on every strings library I have ... except maybe CSS. MSS seems the 2nd most consistent I own (with legato). ARO Foundations strings are very consistent but no legato (across the board, if you include Legendary Low Strings). Trailer Strings are very consistent but not legato. I don't own Synchron Strings Pro or 8Dio Century Strings -- I've heard they are both pretty consistent....


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I should've bought Soothe 2 at the recent Easter sale...but there's also something to be said about why use a plugin to get the strings to sound the way you want them to sound. I don't really do that with CSS, SSS, or Synchron Strings.
> 
> The new Opus demo string stem also sounds, to me, much nicer than MSS. Not to mention those BSS demos I've been revisiting. Lot of competition to choose from.


The first thing my mixing engineer did when hearing the CSS strings in a recent piece I sent was apply Soothe2.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Soundbed said:


> The first thing my mixing engineer did when hearing the CSS strings in a recent piece I sent was apply Soothe2.


The possibility of buying CSS in 2021-2022 is a large driver behind me being very into saturation/Dolby A trick after hearing this exciter+gulfoss-ified CSS demo https://vi-control.net/community/threads/mockup-of-the-starkiller-by-jw-css.103152/

I'd be curious to hear what Soothe/Gulfoss would do to MSS though, given the issues people have with its room are different from those of CSS.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> The first thing my mixing engineer did when hearing the CSS strings in a recent piece I sent was apply Soothe2.


Might say more about your mixing engineer than CSS though


----------



## Soundbed

Russell Anderson said:


> The possibility of buying CSS in 2021-2022 is a large driver behind me being very into saturation/Dolby A trick after hearing this exciter+gulfoss-ified CSS demo https://vi-control.net/community/threads/mockup-of-the-starkiller-by-jw-css.103152/
> 
> I'd be curious to hear what Soothe/Gulfoss would do to MSS though, given the issues people have with its room are different from those of CSS.


very nice mockup.

you might already know this but for others reading, soothe2 is a resonance suppressor. i think every default EQ settings audiobro has on MSS is subtractive EQ. but it's static (of course). i said earlier in the thread that MSS feels like a strings library you send of to engineer to help "mix" it – and someone replied that well recorded strings don't need to be mixed, and I disagreed, and then they started talking about techniques to record live concerts, which I think is a different exercise than delivering a sample product ... but anyway. i think the recordings in MSS are quite "raw" and unprocessed and the default EQs are named things like "smooth" because they are shipping EQ for a "smooth" aesthetic. and i remember in the videos they also comment on the tone, I think they call it smooth there as well.

not everyone is interested in smooth.

so anyway sooth2 can remove resonances dynamically and instruments can have different resonances on different pitches of course. the CSSS solo violin clip i posted has HUGE resonances only on a couple notes, esp on the marcato patch. (that's the solo violin -- the section sounded a little different with fewer resonances.)

anyway i'm rambling because i'm caffeinated.

soothe2 can help a relatively raw, dry strings sound – like MSS – because it will dynamically suppress resonances. and Soothe2 can even bring out vibrato.

Gullfoss is quite different and can add or subtract frequencies to help your brain find a sound more pleasant or exciting or mellow etc. it can help a sound "feel" more appealing and works well even on a master buss, analyzing the entire input of all instruments and making them sound ... better.

you might have known ALL this already but I felt like rambling and i've had way too much caffeine, sorry.

btw an alternative to Gullfoss is iZotope Sculptor which most people agree is better suited to tracks than the master (although I've used it on the master) and it's using AI to help dynamically shape incoming input to fit an EQ curve the machine has been taught might be "how an engineer might have mixed" that instrument section to make it sound better in a mix.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Might say more about your mixing engineer than CSS though


true! it was a stylized approach and it was a hybrid orchestral piece. that engineer worked with CLA for years and Dave Pensado and was more aggressive with the mix than I would have been, but I learned a lot.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> true! it was a stylized approach and it was a hybrid orchestral piece. that engineer worked with CLA for years and Dave Pensado and was more aggressive with the mix than I would have been, but I learned a lot.


That's cool. I had Ryan West mix a jazzy RnB song for me once back in the day - and he was kind enough to walk me through his mixing choices through the phone and sent me screenshots of the settings too. Very helpful and a super nice guy.

Re. Soothe 2, given it is a fairly new plugin and a lot of people don't own it, I think it does say something about MSS though if it _needs_ that level of alteration to get it to appeal to most people's ears. Some can call it "malleable" but others could say "P.I.T.A.".


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That's cool. I had Ryan West mix a jazzy RnB song for me once back in the day - and he was kind enough to walk me through his mixing choices through the phone and sent me screenshots of the settings too. Very helpful and a super nice guy.
> 
> Re. Soothe 2, given it is a fairly new plugin and a lot of people don't own it, I think it does say something about MSS though if it _needs_ that level of alteration to get it to appeal to most people's ears. Some can call it "malleable" but others could say "P.I.T.A.".


right.

some days i wish everyone on gearslutz (sorry – gearspace) was also on VI-Control or vice-versa, because so many small studio owners are also producer / composer hyphenates.

b/c people who expect to mix EVERYTHING don't necessarily find it a PITA.

here a quote on one of my YT videos from an internet friend: 






oh by the way, when you did the Spitfire runs, did you change the speed slider? someone on YT told me I was supposed to slide it all the way one direction, which I seem to have forgotten about entirely when i was making the runs video yesterday.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> right.
> 
> some days i wish everyone on gearslutz (sorry – gearspace) was also on VI-Control or vice-versa, because so many small studio owners are also producer / composer hyphenates.
> 
> b/c people who expect to mix EVERYTHING don't necessarily find it a PITA.
> 
> here a quote on one of my YT videos from an internet friend:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh by the way, when you did the Spitfire runs, did you change the speed slider? someone on YT told me I was supposed to slide it all the way one direction, which I seem to have forgotten about entirely when i was making the runs video yesterday.


For me, mixing everything (as I expect to do) does not mean I want to work harder to get a mix to sit right. It's the same thing with recording techniques - better to get it sounding how you want it at the source rather than trying to fix a bad recording later. This is also why the rooms and engineers matter for these libraries.

For SSS, I was using the performance legato patch, which doesn't have a speed slider.


----------



## soulofsound

Soundbed said:


> i think the recordings in MSS are quite "raw" and unprocessed and the default EQs are named things like "smooth" because they are shipping EQ for a "smooth" aesthetic. and i remember in the videos they also comment on the tone, I think they call it smooth there as well.


The Kontakt eq is really bad, i think. I think the MSS samples sound very rich. It is a much fuller sound than CSS (which i also have and love).
So to me it seems essential to sculpt the MSS sound with other eq's than the built-in Kontakt eq. I am quite certain the people complaining about a synthy sound, are deceived by the Kontakt eq. The MSS sound is not sythy at all. The demo Duncan Krummel posted here shows that.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> For me, mixing everything (as I expect to do) does not mean I want to work harder to get a mix to sit right. It's the same thing with recording techniques - better to get it sounding how you want it at the source rather than trying to fix a bad recording later. This is also why the rooms and engineers matter for these libraries.
> 
> For SSS, I was using the performance legato patch, which doesn't have a speed slider.


ah, okay on the performance patch, got it thanks.

so I took another look at the CSS and there are pronounced resonances that (some would say) "need" to be tamed in the mix, not just for stylistic reasons, but also to simply get CSS to be more even and not bouncing all over the place -- particularly in the violins, particularly where the samples have been edited (crossover points).

this is the same mixing work Soothe2 can do for CSS on one "problem" (such as instrument and / or crossover editing caused resonances) or a totally different "problem" for MSS (such as room / mic / recording / instrument concerns).

i was contrasting CSS with EW hollywood and MSS and looking for resonances that I'd "tame" in the mix and actually CSS had the most obvious ones that seemed to be from edit points between the attacks and the sustains. MSS needed "momentary" resonances tamed much less although the overall sound was more "muted" and needed some boost / gain to get some "air" and some low mids reduced to clear up what some call "mud" and others call "boom" ... hollywood was overall pretty even but a tad "bright". i was using sustains (not legato) and out of the box sound (mains mics for hollywood, mix mic for CSS and mixed mics for MSS except the basses load with some close mic, and MSS default EQ). the violas were most even throughout.


----------



## Soundbed

soulofsound said:


> The Kontakt eq is really bad, i think. I think the MSS samples sound very rich. It is a much fuller sound than CSS (which i also have and love).
> So to me it seems essential to sculpt the MSS sound with other eq's than the built-in Kontakt eq. I am quite certain the people complaining about a synthy sound, are deceived by the Kontakt eq. The MSS sound is not sythy at all. The demo Duncan Krummel posted here shows that.


thanks I think we agree for the most part, although i think the eq applied was to achieve an effect i don't prefer .. not sure if that makes it "bad" b/c i try to keep an open mind about such things

"it seems essential to sculpt the MSS sound with other eq's"

I am no longer a fan of static EQ for middle bands. i use fabfilter proq3 for almost everything and it has dynamic EQs i use on almost everything.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I don't quite understand why there aren't more demos with MSS, especially official demos. Definitely with the 1.1 update. You contrast that with somebody like Spitfire or OT or EW or VSL or even Audio Imperia. Same problem occurred with MSB - but for some reason, AB still doesn't seem to regard demos as absolutely critical to purchase decisions.


----------



## karender

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I don't quite understand why there aren't more demos with MSS, especially official demos. Definitely with the 1.1 update. You contrast that with somebody like Spitfire or OT or EW or VSL or even Audio Imperia. Same problem occurred with MSB - but for some reason, AB still doesn't seem to regard demos as absolutely critical to purchase decisions.


Also, their videos focuses on features and how they work, while we just want to hear the library. Those videos seem more useful for people who already purchased the library, not potential customers.


----------



## soulofsound

Soundbed said:


> not sure if that makes it "bad" b/c i try to keep an open mind about such things


I understand your point here, and surely it is useful to have a smooth eq. 
But yes about the Kontakt eq quality, i mean objectively bad. I think it makes the sound worse, probably by inducing phase distortion.
Turning it off gives you the real quality of the recordings which i think is great.


----------



## Soundbed

soulofsound said:


> I understand your point here, and surely it is useful to have a smooth eq.
> But yes about the Kontakt eq quality, i mean objectively bad. I think it makes the sound worse, probably by inducing phase distortion.
> Turning it off gives you the real quality of the recordings which i think is great.


interesting, i hadn't thought that it was objectively bad but i have moved away from all NI eq and compression products (even standalone in Komplete) when I can avoid them. Kontakt has that solid state eq they also sell separately but SSL does not endorse it and i don't think i even have it installed 

... hmm ...

I wonder if the SSL EQs sound "better"?

well what do you know?

LAMP (LA Modern Percussion) uses the SSL style EQ in Kontakt and the SSL style compressor as well, when you start loading presets. LAMP was made in partnership with Alan Meyerson. The Legacy EQ is only used for the Lowpass or Hipass controls, which are bypassed by default.

So, if it's required to EQ within Kontakt, maybe the SSL "solid state" EQs might be a better choice? I don't know.


----------



## soulofsound

Soundbed said:


> interesting, i hadn't thought that it was objectively bad but i have moved away from all NI eq and compression products (even standalone in Komplete) when I can avoid them. Kontakt has that solid state eq they also sell separately but SSL does not endorse it and i don't think i even have it installed
> 
> ... hmm ...
> 
> I wonder if the SSL EQs sound "better"?
> 
> well what do you know?
> 
> LAMP (LA Modern Percussion) uses the SSL style EQ in Kontakt and the SSL style compressor as well, when you start loading presets. LAMP was made in partnership with Alan Meyerson. The Legacy EQ is only used for the Lowpass or Hipass controls, which are bypassed by default.
> 
> So, if it's required to EQ within Kontakt, maybe the SSL "solid state" EQs might be a better choice? I don't know.


I don't know either and I certainly don't think the NI plugins are bad. I like pretty much anything NI makes. But i tested the Kontakt eq and compared to some high quality plugins, and my assessment is the strings sound so present and upfront, it would be best to process them with good quality plugins and not with the Kontakt eq. I hear phase smearing with it, which can be useful as an effect. So i understand the smooth setting in that regard. But if you want the real sound of the strings, that eq is far from ideal.


----------



## Soundbed

soulofsound said:


> I don't know either and I certainly don't think the NI plugins are bad. I like pretty much anything NI makes. But i tested the Kontakt eq and compared to some high quality plugins, and my assessment is the strings sound so present and upfront, it would be best to process them with good quality plugins and not with the Kontakt eq. I hear phase smearing with it, which can be useful as an effect. So i understand the smooth setting in that regard. But if you want the real sound of the strings, that eq is far from ideal.


I think you are right to start with the EQ off. I tried it (again, but this time in an ABC test) and they sound so much closer to Hollywood and CSS with the EQ off.

( I also take the close mic off the basses, and make a few mic adjustments so the section balance is a bit different than default.)


----------



## Trevor Meier

karender said:


> Also, their videos focuses on features and how they work, while we just want to hear the library. Those videos seem more useful for people who already purchased the library, not potential customers.


Agreed. I’m eagerly waiting to hear more from the library (rather than talk _about _the library).


----------



## molemac

Trevor Meier said:


> Agreed. I’m eagerly waiting to hear more from the library (rather than talk _about _the library).


Herre's my 1st stab at MSS trying to go for a lush sound or is it still synthy?


----------



## alcorey

molemac said:


> Herre's my 1st stab at MSS trying to go for a lush sound or is it still synthy?


Beautiful piece, thanks for that . I do envision fingers pressing keys for the chords when I close my eyes though - not that I can do any better, I'm still on the fence .


----------



## ism

molemac said:


> Herre's my 1st stab at MSS trying to go for a lush sound or is it still synthy?


There's a very lovely and soft quality that this piece speaks to. The "modern" quality - read: lack of drippingly romantic vibrato - emotional realized via a "less is more" effect.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

So I feel so far i’m seeing a lot of comparison between MSS and CSS, but hard to tell the general consensus. Do these MSS really offer so much control as opposed to CSS? Do ppl like the sound better? I’m looking for a more agile/flexible library to blend with bbc core basically. Cinematic studio strings are $399 vs Modern scoring strings/plus legato $798.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

molemac said:


> Herre's my 1st stab at MSS trying to go for a lush sound or is it still synthy?


Would you be willing to share your settings?


----------



## Evans

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I feel so far i’m seeing a lot of comparison between MSS and CSS, but hard to tell the general consensus. Do these MSS really offer so much control as opposed to CSS? Do ppl like the sound better? I’m looking for a more agile/flexible library to blend with bbc core basically. Cinematic studio strings are $399 vs Modern scoring strings/plus legato $798.


Well, they're both strings libraries. And people _want_ the legato to sound like CSS's, and they sure as heck have tried.

If you get along with the sound of MSS, it's significantly more broad in capabilities in areas that CSS doesn't even try to touch. Recorded scales, octave runs, ostinato, aleatoric/detune.

With that said, CSS is famed not only for its legato, but also for its _very_ consistent shorts. Some people are not getting along with the MSS shorts. I haven't bothered with them, because I was mostly interested in the octave runs, scales, and ostinato.


----------



## molemac

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Would you be willing to share your settings?



Sure, What do you mean by settings


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

molemac said:


> Sure, What do you mean by settings


The patch settings for each of the sections? Did you adjust the default patches? Which legato and vibrato style did you use? Did you modify the transition length? Thanks!


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> Herre's my 1st stab at MSS trying to go for a lush sound or is it still synthy?


Wouldn’t call it synthy - but also wouldn’t call it really lush - more delicate 👍 .. lovely piece


----------



## molemac

ism said:


> There's a very lovely and soft quality that this piece speaks to. The "modern" quality - read: lack of drippingly romantic vibrato - emotional realized via a "less is more" effect.


Yes, I found it easier to work with than CSS because of not needing to tame that vibrato which is either off at a low setting or on (it doesn't progressively get louder) I could post a css version if anyone wants to compare. Mss actually has a nice soft tone in comparison, I just used 1 divisi section multi for the paddy strings and overdubbed a Bass and 2nd violins and solo violin on top.


----------



## molemac

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The patch settings for each of the sections? Did you adjust the default patches? Which legato and vibrato style did you use? Did you modify the transition length? Thanks!


Pad is all sustains no legato Violin 1a , violin1b, viola a(doubled with solo viola, cello a doubled with solo cello using Kontakt divisi multiscript as I couldn't figure out how to get 4 separate parts with MSS divisi( I am sure its easy but I lost patience) no inbuilt for eq close and stage a little quieter. Did some panning in ensemble settings and used dry small.Performance settings , vib on and ridden ( quite subtle ) molto on ,crest normal and accent on cc4, in logic I have a direction mixer 1.50 spread and a sample delay of 10 ms on one side.
Solo violin is legato , close and stage, with Bloom normal and bowed on velocity otherwise everything as it comes.
High violins, Violins 2 same settings and basses A same settings too..
all sent to string bus in logic with low cut fab filter,puigteck eq small valve. brightness,Kramer tape trick from Wonderwoman engineer, and trialing Gulfoss gentle settings and small amount of Ott .Not really sure what I am doing with all those as not an engineer but hey I am trying to learn things from this thread.Maybe I'll post a version without all that it might sound better who knows. Room is altiverb Abbey rd and lexicon random hall 2.2secs


----------



## molemac

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I feel so far i’m seeing a lot of comparison between MSS and CSS, but hard to tell the general consensus. Do these MSS really offer so much control as opposed to CSS? Do ppl like the sound better? I’m looking for a more agile/flexible library to blend with bbc core basically. Cinematic studio strings are $399 vs Modern scoring strings/plus legato $798.


Here are some more versions 1/MSS with fx 2/MSS out of box no external or internal fx (no eq or Gulfoss,Kramer tape. OTT)
3/ CSS 4/ CSS with MSS solo violin as the CSSS one sounds nasty so easier to compare. Be interested to see which version is preferred.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I feel so far i’m seeing a lot of comparison between MSS and CSS, but hard to tell the general consensus. Do these MSS really offer so much control as opposed to CSS? Do ppl like the sound better? I’m looking for a more agile/flexible library to blend with bbc core basically. Cinematic studio strings are $399 vs Modern scoring strings/plus legato $798.


I also may not have helped with that, comparing MSS to CSS quite a bit in demos. That's simply because the Cinematic Studio Series is my workhorse for 95% of things, and it was meant as primarily a comparison for _me_. Sorry to any folks that may have obfuscated the discussion for!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

molemac said:


> Here are some more versions 1/MSS with fx 2/MSS out of box no external or internal fx (no eq or Gulfoss,Kramer tape. OTT)
> 3/ CSS 4/ CSS with MSS solo violin as the CSSS one sounds nasty so easier to compare. Be interested to see which version is preferred.


Thanks for doing this! My thoughts are that CSS is warmer in tone (less strident) and has those slowly building transitions that suit this piece well. Perhaps using bloom with MSS would be more comparable in that regard. MSS has a brighter sound, which especially when layered can be too much for me personally. I think towards the back half of the piece though MSS's transitions seem better (or better programmed at least).

If that brightness for MSS can be tamed, I think it could make for a very pleasing sound for me.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

molemac said:


> Be interested to see which version is preferred.


For me, MSS with the additional processing is the clear winner. As much as I love CSS, it comes across as too dark, with too small of an ensemble. MSS' less strident vibrato works better for this, I think.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> Wouldn’t call it synthy - but alao wouldn’t call it really lush - more delicate 👍 .. lovely piece


Ya Dein English is besser als Mein, I meant Shusshy Chamber


----------



## Noeticus

NICE Video, Nathan!


----------



## molemac

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Thanks for doing this! My thoughts are that CSS is warmer in tone (less strident) and has those slowly building transitions that suit this piece well. Perhaps using bloom with MSS would be more comparable in that regard. MSS has a brighter sound, which especially when layered can be too much for me personally. I think towards the back half of the piece though MSS's transitions seem better (or better programmed at least).
> 
> If that brightness for MSS can be tamed, I think it could make for a very pleasing sound for me.


Yes the brightness is probably easily tamed and Mss is more delicate and easier to program,, sorry CSS I didn't give you a fair crack. MSS I think is going to be great for underscore paddy stuff. Looking forward to trying my 4 section divisi patch with the keyswitches which will add even more variety and realism. Basically program the chords with sustains and then just change the articulations in the piano roll to suit (so many options like switching to Sul taste , legato Bloom , etc


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I feel so far i’m seeing a lot of comparison between MSS and CSS, but hard to tell the general consensus. Do these MSS really offer so much control as opposed to CSS? Do ppl like the sound better? I’m looking for a more agile/flexible library to blend with bbc core basically. Cinematic studio strings are $399 vs Modern scoring strings/plus legato $798.


MSS can be CSS without the vibrato, plus runs and stuff.

(There's a soundbyte.)

Both CSS and MSS need "mixing" or "processing in the mix" if you ask me, but for different reasons.

The "sound" of MSS, to me, can easily be more like EW Hollywood and SF Abbey Road -- both more cinematic libs -- with ALL internal Kontakt EQ and convo OFF and a wide gentle boost around 3kHz and little dip around 200Hz (and some low shelf cut on the cellos, because they can be pretty boomy relative to Hollywood cellos and don't create the same "unit" as SF Abbey Road Foundation non-Legendary "Low Strings" mix out of the MSS box). OH! And move the basses back in space by using the Surround mics -- to blend with those mentioned.

re: BBCSO - I have not tried MSS against BBC Discover ... that whole BBC lib sounds more "British" and "concert setting" than I have been pursuing... but based on what I've played with so far, MSS can blend with virtually any other library, with simple EQ treatment and maybe an external verb. I can even accentuate MSS vibrato with dynamic EQ (as I've mentioned elsewhere). I will give BBC Discover + MSS a try, when I have a sec.

Added a couple videos to my MSS playlist this afternoon:

Can MSS sound like Hollywood?​and
MSS Portamento Demo​

...the mod wheel is probz too high on the port demo, but I was listening for the port speeds lol


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> MSS can be CSS without the vibrato, plus runs and stuff.
> 
> (There's a soundbyte.)
> 
> Both CSS and MSS need "mixing" or "processing in the mix" if you ask me, but for different reasons.
> 
> The "sound" of MSS, to me, can easily be more like EW Hollywood and SF Abbey Road -- both more cinematic libs -- with ALL internal Kontakt EQ and convo OFF and a wide gentle boost around 3kHz and little dip around 200Hz (and some low shelf cut on the cellos, because they can be pretty boomy relative to Hollywood cellos and don't create the same "unit" as SF Abbey Road Foundation non-Legendary "Low Strings" mix out of the MSS box). OH! And move the basses back in space by using the Surround mics -- to blend with those mentioned.
> 
> re: BBCSO - I have not tried MSS against BBC Discover ... that whole BBC lib sounds more "British" and "concert setting" than I have been pursuing... but based on what I've played with so far, MSS can blend with virtually any other library, with simple EQ treatment and maybe an external verb. I can even accentuate MSS vibrato with dynamic EQ (as I've mentioned elsewhere). I will give BBC Discover + MSS a try, when I have a sec.
> 
> Added a couple videos to my MSS playlist this afternoon:
> 
> Can MSS sound like Hollywood?​and
> MSS Portamento Demo​
> ...the mod wheel is probz too high on this, but I was listening for the port speeds lol



Right on, appreciate the in-depth response. So it seems MSS is more malleable and can be chameleon’d (is that a word) easily into other libraries. Personally I do love the sound of bbc core/abbey road one...they’re just limited in articulations and I’m looking for a workhorse to blend. It seems MSS might be really good to blend for fast runs and experimental stuff, plus the blooms sound beautiful. A lot of demos sound like Howard shores strings. It might be nicer to use in psychedelic rock/pop/baroque pop than bbc but I haven’t tried yet. 

However bbc discover is trash (I mean I got it for free and for a week or so I thought it was amazing and became addicted, thus starting me down this dark path or library addictions, I bought core and it sounds so much better and had so many more options) bbc core is amazing. I’ve been considering going pro, but I think core plus abbey road ones mic positions will have me covered for orchestral elements and percussion and I have some junkie xl brass and some more string playability/versatility might be exactly what I need to top it all off.
I do have spitfire motions which has some great ostinatos etc and that zimmer feel but this engine seems to be a little different and the runs really grab my eye


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Duncan Krummel said:


> I also may not have helped with that, comparing MSS to CSS quite a bit in demos. That's simply because the Cinematic Studio Series is my workhorse for 95% of things, and it was meant as primarily a comparison for _me_. Sorry to any folks that may have obfuscated the discussion for!


No worries at all, and no I feel like I’ve seen a lot of comparisons and heard a lot about both. I have a few libraries from different developers, especially for solo strings, but as far as orchestral libraries/strings I only have spitfire. So I’m just searching for an ultimate, malleable workhorse to fill in some gaps for me. The price is just very high so I’m doing my homework before I make a decision. I’m more than a hobbies, but I’m just starting down this path so I don’t have any work yet! Just building a body of work. So I don’t want to regret a decision Haha. Cheers!


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Evans said:


> Well, they're both strings libraries. And people _want_ the legato to sound like CSS's, and they sure as heck have tried.
> 
> If you get along with the sound of MSS, it's significantly more broad in capabilities in areas that CSS doesn't even try to touch. Recorded scales, octave runs, ostinato, aleatoric/detune.
> 
> With that said, CSS is famed not only for its legato, but also for its _very_ consistent shorts. Some people are not getting along with the MSS shorts. I haven't bothered with them, because I was mostly interested in the octave runs, scales, and ostinato.


Right on, thank you. Yes tho are my interests in it as well. Although as far as shorts go I still really do love bbc core and abbey road ones shorts. It’s really id like different legato types/options of runs etc and the ostinatos engine seems rad. Although spitfire motions helps with that kind of stuff which I also have haha.


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> Right on, appreciate the in-depth response. So it seems MSS is more malleable and can be chameleon’d (is that a word) easily into other libraries. Personally I do love the sound of bbc core/abbey road one...they’re just limited in articulations and I’m looking for a workhorse to blend. It seems MSS might be really good to blend for fast runs and experimental stuff, plus the blooms sound beautiful. A lot of demos sound like Howard shores strings. It might be nicer to use in psychedelic rock/pop/baroque pop than bbc but I haven’t tried yet.
> 
> However bbc discover is trash (I mean I got it for free and for a week or so I thought it was amazing and became addicted, thus starting me down this dark path or library addictions, I bought core and it sounds so much better and had so many more options) bbc core is amazing. I’ve been considering going pro, but I think core plus abbey road ones mic positions will have me covered for orchestral elements and percussion and I have some junkie xl brass and some more string playability/versatility might be exactly what I need to top it all off.
> I do have spitfire motions which has some great ostinatos etc and that zimmer feel but this engine seems to be a little different and the runs really grab my eye


Howard Shore – probably good general reference for MSS, I think.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Noeticus said:


> NICE Video, Nathan!



This is great @Soundbed ! Makes me particularly excited about OPUS in fact...those HO Strings sounded great, as did AROOF (and I personally like SSS, but it does sound quite washy / undefined in comparison - also that vibrato is pretty intense).

Your MSS sound tweaks do make it more appealing to my ears!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

GingerMaestro said:


> Here's my offering...Jurassic Park main theme. Took longer than expected, but quite a lot of that was learning the library. Not Perfect, could go on tinkering with this all night, but might be useful for someone for another perspective.
> 
> By way of comparison below is Anne-Kathrin Dern's mockup with CSS
> 
> Would be interested in any thoughts or comments



You may want to post a louder version of your's btw.

AKD is very talented at mockups, so you've set yourself a high bar in terms of comparison. Plus, she layers multiple libraries, which adds to the thickness and richness of the sound. MSS by itself sounds quite thin. I think there are some transitions that could use a bit more programming finesse - right now, they sound rather disjointed or abrupt in places.


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> Howard Shore – probably good general reference for MSS, I think.


Hmm....


----------



## John Longley

Mike T said:


> Hmm....


“Hmm....”- Mike T (2021)


----------



## CT

John Longley said:


> “Hmm....”- Mike T (2021)


I'm told it's one of the things I say most. Guess it's seeping in to forum life now....


----------



## CT

molemac said:


> Here are some more versions 1/MSS with fx 2/MSS out of box no external or internal fx (no eq or Gulfoss,Kramer tape. OTT)
> 3/ CSS 4/ CSS with MSS solo violin as the CSSS one sounds nasty so easier to compare. Be interested to see which version is preferred.


Definitely prefer the raw MSS sound here, thanks for this. Neither solo violin works for me at all though....


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Because I have more money than cents, I went ahead and purchased this. I only had two items on my recent purchase list - OPUS and Modern Scoring Strings. And while I still await to fall in love with the MSS tone, I can't ignore the amazing amount of features it contains. If all I get out of it are the ostinatos, runs, and aleatoric sounds, it won't be a total waste. I also qualified for the full discount thanks to owning LASS full - and AudioBro has demonstrated an urgent willingness to take feedback and update the library.


----------



## CT

Interested to hear what you make of it, particularly regarding the recording quality of the lower strings.


----------



## Noc

Finally pulled the trigger and bought MSS+ExpLeg. Though in all honesty, it’s more to invest in the library’s future to use it right away, since I don’t really have the free time to test and configure it to my liking at the moment. 

I did wanna ask – @dxmachina I know y’all are busy right now with ExpLeg 1.1, but after that, are there plans for an update that focuses specifically on the tone? MSS doesn’t quite have that lush, spacious sound I’m looking for just yet, at least not without a lot of fiddling with plugins and EQ. However, I remember that whilst LASS had its own tonal issue (dryness/harshness), the Color IRs were added that completely solved it, and I’ve been perfectly happy with LASS ever since. Anything similar in the pipeline for MSS? Any notes on what to expect in the future would be really appreciated.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Here is a revised version of "Jurassic Park Maim Theme" This by no way meant to be a comparison of Ann-Kathrin Dern's Mockup, but is a good reference in terms of sound. I wanted to see how easy it was to do this. With CSS for example, it's easy to copy midi between instruments and it's very consistent. This needed a lot more work and took longer than anticipated.

It is not with out it's quirks :-
Some of the Legato's are a little inconsistent, even within the sections (ie between Vlins 1a & 1b) notes randomly stick out here and there and there is a bit of a swelling thing on long notes. I think I need to play with the dynamic smoothing.

The shorts seem a little bumpy, ie different round robins start at very slightly different times at different dynamics etc.

Anyhow, was an interesting exercise.

P.S. My eq skills suck, so I'm sure in the right hands this could sound better.


----------



## BasariStudios

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Because I have more money than cents, I went ahead and purchased this. I only had two items on my recent purchase list - OPUS and Modern Scoring Strings. And while I still await to fall in love with the MSS tone, I can't ignore the amazing amount of features it contains. If all I get out of it are the ostinatos, runs, and aleatoric sounds, it won't be a total waste. I also qualified for the full discount thanks to owning LASS full - and AudioBro has demonstrated an urgent willingness to take feedback and update the library.


At the end...you will love it.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Still getting to grips with the library, but since nobody had shared a Synchron Strings Pro comparison, here it is vs. MSS (exact order written below). Only using legato. Out of the box, default patch sound for both. MIDI tweaked a bit to work with each.

I'll say this - out of the box sound for MSS is not as bad as some of the demos made it seem IMO. Could be due to riding the mod wheel too high in those. However, it does seem somewhat finicky to program with all of its settings. Like the different legato starts are interesting in concept, but they lead to some really strange transitions that I had trouble overcoming. I'm not entirely sure the "Auto" settings are as good as they need to be (especially if you don't want to be adjusting some parameters for every note). Synchron Strings also has different note start options, but they just seem to work as they should.

SSP is first and MSS is second


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Synchron Strings Pro comparison vs. MSS (I'll withhold the order though)



It's so obvious!


----------



## paulwr

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Still getting to grips with the library, but since nobody had shared a Synchron Strings Pro comparison, here it is vs. MSS (I'll withhold the order though). Only using legato. Out of the box, default patch sound for both. MIDI tweaked a bit to work with each.
> 
> I'll say this - out of the box sound for MSS is not as bad as some of the demos made it seem IMO. Could be due to riding the mod wheel too high in those. However, it does seem somewhat finicky to program with all of its settings. Like the different legato starts are interesting in concept, but they lead to some really strange transitions that I had trouble overcoming. I'm not entirely sure the "Auto" settings are as good as they need to be (especially if you don't want to be adjusting some parameters for every note). Synchron Strings also has different note start options, but they just seem to work as they should.


Now that you have done that, I'd wonder now about how much you can make one sound like the other using your mixing tools. I don't have time right now for doing tests, but I will try later to do a short section of some music using two libraries to the best of my ability to make each work for the same cue. But totally from scratch for each, none of this sharing automation, that doesn't begin to tell the full story.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

paulwr said:


> Now that you have done that, I'd wonder now about how much you can make one sound like the other using your mixing tools. I don't have time right now for doing tests, but I will try later to do a short section of some music using two libraries to the best of my ability to make each work for the same cue. But totally from scratch for each, none of this sharing automation, that doesn't begin to tell the full story.


As I've mentioned before, I have no interest in trying to make them sound the same. Blending to me involves taking the best, tonally, of each library and using that - some tones blend, some don't. Don't force it.


----------



## paulwr

ALittleNightMusic said:


> As I've mentioned before, I have no interest in trying to make them sound the same. Blending to me involves taking the best, tonally, of each library and using that - some tones blend, some don't. Don't force it.


I understand, but that isn't the idea exactly. The idea is seeing just how versatile a library is, which for some can be very important. So if one library can sound very close to another, and the other doesn't come close to imitating the first one.... there can be some value for a lot of users trying to choose one over the other. Make sense? And again, I can see this doesn't perhaps apply to you as much as to some.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Just wondered how anyone else is dealing with the legato delay. Are you having legato on one track and the shorts on another ? I’ve been using them all on the same track and then moving stuff around. Interestingly making the shorts later rather than legatos earlier. The stuff I’ve been doing is legato based, with the odd bit of shorts. If it were vice-versa, id probably do it the other way around..


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Here's a quick comparison between MSS, Synchron Strings Pro, CSS, and Spitfire Symphonic Strings (not in that order necessarily). Default patches / tone for all. MIDI adjusted per library.

Edit: While there are some niggles, I can also admit some user error. I'll withhold further thoughts for now - though there is still a question on whether MSS is a clear must buy over the other libraries.

At the moment, I'm not sure I would recommend somebody buy MSS over the other three - primarily due to issues with MSS's scripting it would seem. There are inconsistent attacks (even with the same legato type), CPU issues (my viola patch jumped to 30% but then I reloaded it and it was down to 4% with the same MIDI), strange legato / hanging note behavior, hard to control crescendos and decrescendos, bugs within the articulation maps they provide (with no way it seems to fix it within the tile switcher), etc. No matter how flexible a library is, if it is a pain in the butt to work with / program, it won't be of much use to me as it sucks to joy out of writing when you have to fiddle with it so much.

I'm really hoping Audiobro can address these things ASAP because it _does_ have the *potential* to be a one stop shop of sorts for strings.

Order is MSS, SSS, SSP, CSS


----------



## soulofsound

GingerMaestro said:


> Just wondered how anyone else is dealing with the legato delay. Are you having legato on one track and the shorts on another ? I’ve been using them all on the same track and then moving stuff around. Interestingly making the shorts later rather than legatos earlier. The stuff I’ve been doing is legato based, with the odd bit of shorts. If it were vice-versa, id probably do it the other way around..


In Logic there is also a delay setting per region, so not just per track. I use that. I assume your DAW must have something similar.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

GingerMaestro said:


> Just wondered how anyone else is dealing with the legato delay. Are you having legato on one track and the shorts on another ? I’ve been using them all on the same track and then moving stuff around. Interestingly making the shorts later rather than legatos earlier. The stuff I’ve been doing is legato based, with the odd bit of shorts. If it were vice-versa, id probably do it the other way around..


How much delay does legato have? I know there's a 40ms lookahead but the manual doesn't seem to indicate when it is applied (maybe just during auto-divisi?) and the manual also says it isn't the exact amount (aka you have to effectively go by ear).


----------



## Baronvonheadless

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Still getting to grips with the library, but since nobody had shared a Synchron Strings Pro comparison, here it is vs. MSS (I'll withhold the order though). Only using legato. Out of the box, default patch sound for both. MIDI tweaked a bit to work with each.
> 
> I'll say this - out of the box sound for MSS is not as bad as some of the demos made it seem IMO. Could be due to riding the mod wheel too high in those. However, it does seem somewhat finicky to program with all of its settings. Like the different legato starts are interesting in concept, but they lead to some really strange transitions that I had trouble overcoming. I'm not entirely sure the "Auto" settings are as good as they need to be (especially if you don't want to be adjusting some parameters for every note). Synchron Strings also has different note start options, but they just seem to work as they should.





ALittleNightMusic said:


> Here's a quick comparison between MSS, Synchron Strings Pro, CSS, and Spitfire Symphonic Strings (not in that order necessarily). Default patches / tone for all. MIDI adjusted per library.
> 
> At the moment, I'm not sure I would recommend somebody buy MSS over the other three - primarily due to issues with MSS's scripting it would seem. There are inconsistent attacks (even with the same legato type), CPU issues (my viola patch jumped to 30% but then I reloaded it and it was down to 4% with the same MIDI), strange legato / hanging note behavior, hard to control crescendos and decrescendos, bugs within the articulation maps they provide (with no way it seems to fix it within the tile switcher), etc. No matter how flexible a library is, if it is a pain in the butt to work with / program, it won't be of much use to me as it sucks to joy out of writing when you have to fiddle with it so much.
> 
> I'm really hoping Audiobro can address these things ASAP because it _does_ have the *potential* to be a one stop shop of sorts for strings.
> 
> Order is MSS, SSS, SSP, CSS


What is the order here? I think I prefer the 2nd and the 3rd with perhaps the 3rd being the winner?
The ending tail sounds a bit abrupt/synthy in the 1st and 4th...


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Baronvonheadless said:


> What is the order here? I think I prefer the 2nd and the 3rd with perhaps the 3rd being the winner?
> The ending tail sounds a bit abrupt/synthy in the 1st and 4th...


I've added the orders for both posts behind the spoiler tag. Click the blurred area and it'll reveal itself.


----------



## Vik

Don't get this wrong, but with a few user-made differences in dynamic layers, mic position use (wet/dry), panning, timing etc, one may possibly make each and one of them sound better than the others. I'm not saying than anyone have tried to make make one of them sound better, but I'm familiar enough with these libraries to know that some of the differences I hear could have been dealt with by eg. altering some CC levels / chosen more similar mic positions / adjust for the different wetness and so on. Some short example files like those sometimes shared here are simply too different from each other, IMO, to serve as valid comparisons. I know, because I have fooled my self unintentionally (with self made comparisons) by liking the loudest clip, the brightest clip, the one which is slightly more – or more likeable – reverb than the others and so on.
They are still interesting!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Vik said:


> Don't get this wrong, but with a few user-made differences in dynamic layers, mic position use (wet/dry), panning, timing etc, one may possibly make each and one of them sound better than the others. I'm not saying than anyone have tried to make make one of them sound better, but I'm familiar enough with these libraries to know that some of the differences I hear could have been dealt with by eg. altering some CC levels / chosen more similar mic positions / adjust for the different wetness and so on. Some short example files like those sometimes shared here are simply too different from each other, IMO, to serve as valid comparisons. I know, because I have fooled my self unintentionally (with self made comparisons) by liking the loudest clip, the brightest clip, the one which is slightly more – or more likeable – reverb than the others and so on.
> They are still interesting!


You're welcome to share a more valid comparison for our benefit. As I stated, this is the out of the box sound for the default patches. If one is inherently brighter or verb-y than the other, I'm not trying to compensate for that. If one has some non-linear ramp in dynamic layers for the same modulation value, I'm not fussing about too much there (though I did adjust a bit). In general, they're pretty close to the same volume level.


----------



## GingerMaestro

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How much delay does legato have? I know there's a 40ms lookahead but the manual doesn't seem to indicate when it is applied (maybe just during auto-divisi?) and the manual also says it isn't the exact amount (aka you have to effectively go by ear).


I‘m sure you read this already, but the legato delay, is by design in the 1.1 update, so we can hear the transitions better, make it sound more “leagatoey” I’m really happy with that and I think it’s a huge improvement. As with other libraries, I think the delay depends on how fast you are playing. I’m simply moving the midi around to line up, or not line up depending on the situation. 

It was more a question regarding if folks were running the articulations On different tracks, or using the articulation sets etc....


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

GingerMaestro said:


> I‘m sure you read this already, but the legato delay, is by design in the 1.1 update, so we can hear the transitions better, make it sound more “leagatoey” I’m really happy with that and I think it’s a huge improvement. As with other libraries, I think the delay depends on how fast you are playing. I’m simply moving the midi around to line up, or not line up depending on the situation.
> 
> It was more a question regarding if folks were running the articulations On different tracks, or using the articulation sets etc....


Hmm from what I've read / seen, the legato delay should only apply to the bloom legato attack - but TBD what it is exactly (or perhaps it is variable depending on the transition speed knob). Or are you finding something else in use?

I'm trying to use just single tracks since I prefer that - but as I mentioned, the included articulation maps have some issues.


----------



## paulwr

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Here's a quick comparison between MSS, Synchron Strings Pro, CSS, and Spitfire Symphonic Strings (not in that order necessarily). Default patches / tone for all. MIDI adjusted per library.


My impression after two listens was they are all lovely. While I couldn't pick a favorite, I was able to choose my least favorite, which turned out to be CSS. Sometimes I sit back in my chair, shake my head, and think how amazing it is any of these things work.


----------



## dzilizzi

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Here's a quick comparison between MSS, Synchron Strings Pro, CSS, and Spitfire Symphonic Strings (not in that order necessarily). Default patches / tone for all. MIDI adjusted per library.
> 
> At the moment, I'm not sure I would recommend somebody buy MSS over the other three - primarily due to issues with MSS's scripting it would seem. There are inconsistent attacks (even with the same legato type), CPU issues (my viola patch jumped to 30% but then I reloaded it and it was down to 4% with the same MIDI), strange legato / hanging note behavior, hard to control crescendos and decrescendos, bugs within the articulation maps they provide (with no way it seems to fix it within the tile switcher), etc. No matter how flexible a library is, if it is a pain in the butt to work with / program, it won't be of much use to me as it sucks to joy out of writing when you have to fiddle with it so much.
> 
> I'm really hoping Audiobro can address these things ASAP because it _does_ have the *potential* to be a one stop shop of sorts for strings.
> 
> Order is MSS, SSS, SSP, CSS


I'm kind of surprised. The one I like the best is the one I own. I have the caveat that I'm listening on my phone and the wind is blowing so the notification for my doorbell camera keeps going off.


----------



## CT

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Here's a quick comparison between MSS, Synchron Strings Pro, CSS, and Spitfire Symphonic Strings (not in that order necessarily). Default patches / tone for all. MIDI adjusted per library.
> 
> At the moment, I'm not sure I would recommend somebody buy MSS over the other three - primarily due to issues with MSS's scripting it would seem. There are inconsistent attacks (even with the same legato type), CPU issues (my viola patch jumped to 30% but then I reloaded it and it was down to 4% with the same MIDI), strange legato / hanging note behavior, hard to control crescendos and decrescendos, bugs within the articulation maps they provide (with no way it seems to fix it within the tile switcher), etc. No matter how flexible a library is, if it is a pain in the butt to work with / program, it won't be of much use to me as it sucks to joy out of writing when you have to fiddle with it so much.
> 
> I'm really hoping Audiobro can address these things ASAP because it _does_ have the *potential* to be a one stop shop of sorts for strings.
> 
> Order is MSS, SSS, SSP, CSS


Interesting little comparison. I knew the first two but flipped the third and fourth, which surprised me, though listening again on headphones, it's obvious. I think two sounds the best and three flows the best. Could be closer by tweaking the transition speed on the former, most likely.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

paulwr said:


> My impression after two listens was they are all lovely. While I couldn't pick a favorite, I was able to choose my least favorite, which turned out to be CSS. Sometimes I sit back in my chair, shake my head, and think how amazing it is any of these things work.


I will say compared to the others, CSS is a pain in the ass to work with due to the variable legato delay. Just making sure each note lands where it needs to in relation to other sections takes longer than it should (I had to re-post the file 3 times because I had to keep correcting the CSS version).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

dzilizzi said:


> I'm kind of surprised. The one I like the best is the one I own. I have the caveat that I'm listening on my phone and the wind is blowing so the notification for my doorbell camera keeps going off.


Which one was that?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Mike T said:


> Interesting little comparison. I knew the first two but flipped the third and fourth, which surprised me, though listening again on headphones, it's obvious. I think two sounds the best and three flows the best. Could be closer by tweaking the transition speed on the former, most likely.


I agree with your assessment. I’m a big fan of Synchron Strings Pro anyway. They always seem to come out well for me.

For SSS, I was using the “recommended” performance legato patches but they are highly limited in terms of control. I may switch back to the legato performance ones.


----------



## CT

It makes me a bit sad how little I seem to like CSS whenever someone sticks it next to others like this.


----------



## dzilizzi

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Which one was that?


SSS. There was one run that really stuck out - viola? cello? That the first totally missed, the third was okay, and the 4th almost as good. SSS just hit it. And, it may be different with real speakers.


----------



## borisb2

ALittleNightMusic said:


> No matter how flexible a library is, if it is a pain in the butt to work with / program, it won't be of much use to me as it sucks to joy out of writing when you have to fiddle with it so much.


It is definitly work to iron out all these little bumps when working with MSS (at least for me so far) ..but I do like the tone when the ironing (and drying  ) is done.

Here's a little waltz-idea I worked on over the weekend (for upcoming library album):


----------



## Soundbed

borisb2 said:


> It is definitly work to iron out all these little bumps when working with MSS (at least for me so far) ..but I do like the tone when the ironing (and drying  ) is done.
> 
> Here's a little waltz-idea I worked on over the weekend (for upcoming library album):


Wow that’s really great!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

borisb2 said:


> It is definitly work to iron out all these little bumps when working with MSS (at least for me so far) ..but I do like the tone when the ironing (and drying  ) is done.
> 
> Here's a little waltz-idea I worked on over the weekend (for upcoming library album):


That's wonderful! Nice piece most of all! Did you use any of the MSS unique articulations or just the standard ones?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I thought I'd try to share something that played to MSS's strengths - ostinatos and runs. MSS has these recorded, while the other libraries don't. I don't know what MSS is doing specifically for the diatonic run so I couldn't replicate it exactly in MIDI with the others. Order is as before - MSS, SSS, SSP, CSS. For ostinatos, I added a second CSS one at the end that used the marcato legato instead of the advanced legato (which skips the second note for some reason).

I think MSS has recorded 3 or 4 note ostinatos - connecting them to each other though is not as smooth (which you can hear in the gaps).


----------



## TonalDynamics

FireGS said:


> I'll rephrase - the performances possible from these libraries, as currently offered, sound last generation. There's a stiffness to those libraries, and unless you're playing slow, emotive lines that cater to the libraries strengths (as programmed, as offered), they dont sound that convincing, or like how a real section sounds.


Disagree completely. That's likely more due to one's individual programming or writing skills and not the samples themselves.

Spitfire and OT have the best libraries in general (with OT coming out on top by a fair margin in my book) when compared to ANYTHING else on the commercial sample market today.

In fact, anything else newer than the OT stuff I've got _mostly_ sounds worse, and not up to any kind of snuff in particular.

The real area that OT shines in is in their programming expertise - the patches just WORK, blend flawlessly, are leveled, balanced and transition incredibly well. Also their legato is the most dependably consistent in the whole industry IME

In summary, and in the words of a wise man, there are two kinds of fool:

One says "This is old; therefore, it is good' The other *says* 'This is new; therefore, it is better."

Some products just WORK, like you expect them to. OT is king in this regard and SF as well to a lesser degree


----------



## borisb2

Soundbed said:


> Wow that’s really great!





ALittleNightMusic said:


> That's wonderful! Nice piece most of all! Did you use any of the MSS unique articulations or just the standard ones?


thanks. .. its still WIP. The most unique articulation used so far is tremolo, haha .. there is definitely room for some runs - maybe not aleatoric 

I did spend some time ironing out the legato-lines (automating bowed/normal and bloom - still could be better) as well as working on getting more punch with the bass-pizz to get that waltz feeling


----------



## TonalDynamics

Toecutter said:


> My thoughts exactly. Still underwhelmed by the sound, which is the most important thing for me. I understand why some here are so emotionally invested, on paper this was the most exciting thing since CS2 came out but unlike CS2, I believe MSS lacks the body and character that a good strings section is instantly recognized for. I'm very thankful for the demos posted so far but I believe this is as good as it gets? The brass counterpart has been out for 2 years and other than ONE really impressive demo of the trumpets that could be a glitch in the Matrix, everything else I heard was very disappointing. CSS and CSB releases were pouring with great sounding demos. 2 months, 2 years, it shouldn't take this long for MSS and MSB?


I have to echo these sentiments, having a bagillion features doesn't interest me nearly as much as a product with impeccable sound and programming/scripting, and the dozen or so demos I've listened to on this thread, most notably Nochte Musik's blind shootout comparisons suggest to me that MSS is lacking in both these areas


----------



## John Longley

Here is a 16 bar test I played in quickly (violins are a little messy) with just a touch of CC1 movement. No processing other than a a hint of EW Spaces. All internal eq and reverb is turned off and the legato is on auto speed, molto on, legato and normal (static). 

I think it holds up well given the nature of the figure played in the violins. I still haven't spent much time with this library and need to learn it better. 

I used the individual patches, not poly legato. 

Excuse the balance, it's 1AM and I'm on headphones.


----------



## molemac

borisb2 said:


> thanks. .. its still WIP. The most unique articulation used so far is tremolo, haha .. there is definitely room for some runs - maybe not aleatoric
> 
> I did spend some time ironing out the legato-lines (automating bowed/normal and bloom - still could be better) as well as working on getting more punch with the bass-pizz to get that waltz feeling


Nice piece Boris. Only listening on iPad but the legato violins seem to sound quite strident/harsh (not as romantic as the tune) as if there is no vib ?specifically 0:36 almost like an open E string ? They dont sing like you would want them too. Have you tried Soothing2 them ?


----------



## borisb2

molemac said:


> Nice piece Boris. Only listening on iPad but the legato violins seem to sound quite strident/harsh (not as romantic as the tune) as if there is no vib ?specifically 0:36 almost like an open E string ? They dont sing like you would want them too. Have you tried Soothing2 them ?


Yeah, noticed that of course.. did cut around 2-3kHz quite a bit but apparantly not enough.. need to consider Soothe2 for that I think

Edit: I updated the above track with a better EQed version


----------



## Russell Anderson

@Soundbed your youtube videos make a great showing for MSS. Your use of the room mics for bass and the 300/2k (I think) adjustments are doing some nice work for the sound. The CSS at the end of the EWHO video sounded still deliciously fat to my ears (iirc thanks in part to your processing on the basses) and there was some room sneaking into the MSS samples but you brought the sound into a much better space. I forget whether MSS takes to reverb very well as I've not really been following this thread (my gut says no, as the ERs have already defined the sound of the space, but Duncan appears to have done a nice job regardless below)



Duncan Krummel said:


>



Very nice work, exciting piece! The flitty excited woodwind bits around 0:12 especially, that sort of thing just tickles me in the best way. On MSS, that version also sounded really pretty good. Silkier sounding, like... water?, while the CSS blended with the brass a bit more with a drier edgier quality. Whatever you're doing for processing is doing a really good job at hiding the room tone of MSS, which I'm still not fond of very much, but it's only showing up in places like the swells at 0:33 in https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gq3v3qdf43grlu7/AACdksl0BzWcFfedyXnAbFcPa?dl=0&preview=MSS+Strings.wav where elsewhere you've done a good job of making the sound a lot more expansive. Great stuff, man, nice writing and processing!


----------



## BasariStudios

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I agree with your assessment. I’m a big fan of Synchron Strings Pro anyway. They always seem to come out well for me.
> 
> For SSS, I was using the “recommended” performance legato patches but they are highly limited in terms of control. I may switch back to the legato performance ones.


I own most of the Libraries you also own, Synchron String Pro is the King of them all lately but...do you share the same feeling? Its Best workflow and ease of use i have seen made me not care so much about its sound.


----------



## Toecutter

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Here's a quick comparison between MSS, Synchron Strings Pro, CSS, and Spitfire Symphonic Strings (not in that order necessarily). Default patches / tone for all. MIDI adjusted per library.
> 
> At the moment, I'm not sure I would recommend somebody buy MSS over the other three - primarily due to issues with MSS's scripting it would seem. There are inconsistent attacks (even with the same legato type), CPU issues (my viola patch jumped to 30% but then I reloaded it and it was down to 4% with the same MIDI), strange legato / hanging note behavior, hard to control crescendos and decrescendos, bugs within the articulation maps they provide (with no way it seems to fix it within the tile switcher), etc. No matter how flexible a library is, if it is a pain in the butt to work with / program, it won't be of much use to me as it sucks to joy out of writing when you have to fiddle with it so much.
> 
> I'm really hoping Audiobro can address these things ASAP because it _does_ have the *potential* to be a one stop shop of sorts for strings.
> 
> Order is MSS, SSS, SSP, CSS


Thanks for doing this. CSS blows everything else out of the water and SSP a close second to my surprise!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Russell Anderson said:


> On MSS, that version also sounded really pretty good. Silkier sounding, like... water?, while the CSS blended with the brass a bit more with a drier edgier quality. Whatever you're doing for processing is doing a really good job at hiding the room tone of MSS, which I'm still not fond of very much [...]


Thanks for the kind words! Processing wise, all I’ve truly done is added some reverb with Spaces 2, and perhaps darkened it through the brightness knob (I’m not even sure I did this). Oh, and I did eek in the close mics to the mix mic. I’m not sure everyone caught that the mix mic is Stage and Surround only, as AudioBro have explicitly stated that everyone likes a different amount of close mic.

MSS is much closer to HWS in terms of dryness, so it make since that it should take to Spaces 2 much better than CSS, and this has been true in all of my testing. Whereas I quite like Trackdown for strings (contrary to most on here, it would seem), it has enough baked in ER that Spaces 2 often creates too much bloom in the sound. MSS, on the other hand, takes to it _very_ cleanly, and it can really help warm up the sound.

I’d also like to ask, since a few others’ posts suggested it, that if anyone is listening to examples to find where MSS sounds the worst... why? Poor programming will expose just that, poor programming. Why not listen for where it sounds the best to hear what MSS _can_ achieve?


----------



## BasariStudios

I just pulled the plug on Synchron Elite...
i wonder how they would meld with MSS.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thanks for the kind words! Processing wise, all I’ve truly done is added some reverb with Spaces 2, and perhaps darkened it through the brightness knob (I’m not even sure I did this). Oh, and I did eek in the close mics to the mix mic. I’m not sure everyone caught that the mix mic is Stage and Surround only, as AudioBro have explicitly stated that everyone likes a different amount of close mic.
> 
> MSS is much closer to HWS in terms of dryness, so it make since that it should take to Spaces 2 much better than CSS, and this has been true in all of my testing. Whereas I quite like Trackdown for strings (contrary to most on here, it would seem), it has enough baked in ER that Spaces 2 often creates too much bloom in the sound. MSS, on the other hand, takes to it _very_ cleanly, and it can really help warm up the sound.
> 
> I’d also like to ask, since a few others’ posts suggested it, that if anyone is listening to examples to find where MSS sounds the worst... why? Poor programming will expose just that, poor programming. Why not listen for where it sounds the best to hear what MSS _can_ achieve?


Poor programming or poor scripting? Owners all want to get the best out of MSS but it needs to be easy to work with.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Poor programming or poor scripting? Owners all want to get the best out of MSS but it needs to be easy to work with.


Like all things, ease of use may or may not take prior work. I, like many others, thought the high patch count of EWHO, or even EWQLSO, was impossible to work with at first. Then I worked with it, and now it’s fine. Even fast, I’d say. Ease of use and intuitiveness aren’t the same. Notation software is another great example of this.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Poor programming or poor scripting? Owners all want to get the best out of MSS but it needs to be easy to work with.





Duncan Krummel said:


> Like all things, ease of use may or may not take prior work. I, like many others, thought the high patch count of EWHO, or even EWQLSO, was impossible to work with at first. Then I worked with it, and now it’s fine. Even fast, I’d say. Ease of use and intuitiveness aren’t the same. Notation software is another great example of this.


I agree with Duncan. I find MSS easier and easier the more I work with it.


BasariStudios said:


> I just pulled the plug on Synchron Elite...
> i wonder how they would meld with MSS.


I wonder too. They have a different aesthetic in the demos. Elite sounds more obviously "elegant" and crisp in most of the demos, and I think it may be the individual players (and maybe their instruments). It's a very interesting offering and despite the "high" price(s) I am considering them also.

As a side topic, I think I prefer the MSS GUI paradigm of the main controls for attacks and transitions on the screen all at the same time, versus the Synchron player's columns of articulations. I like to see all my choices at once rather than having them hidden away behind a click, or my brain forgets about them. That said, I recognise that I should probably look at my screen less!



Russell Anderson said:


> @Soundbed your youtube videos make a great showing for MSS. Your use of the room mics for bass and the 300/2k (I think) adjustments are doing some nice work for the sound. The CSS at the end of the EWHO video sounded still deliciously fat to my ears (iirc thanks in part to your processing on the basses) and there was some room sneaking into the MSS samples but you brought the sound into a much better space. I forget whether MSS takes to reverb very well as I've not really been following this thread (my gut says no, as the ERs have already defined the sound of the space, but Duncan appears to have done a nice job regardless below)


Thanks @Russell Anderson - The EQ I am using more and more: Gentle Bass cuts are around 200Hz and gentle, wide high boosts around 3kHz. Resonance suppression via Soothe2 occasionally or FabFilter ProQ3 occasionally. I didn't "process" CSS other than pull down the basses dynamic level and turn up their volume. I usually use Exponential R4 algo reverb with tweaks to the Fat Vintage Hall 2 (Wide) preset but I'm not a big fan of tons of reverb.


ALittleNightMusic said:


> bugs within the articulation maps they provide


I have tried the Studio One Sound Variation maps provided by AudioBro for MSS but I was getting confused about which ones to load for which instrument. I think I'll write a question on their forum at some point. I don't understand how to use them correctly yet. Or as you say they might need edits.


ALittleNightMusic said:


> Hmm from what I've read / seen, the legato delay should only apply to the bloom legato attack - but TBD what it is exactly (or perhaps it is variable depending on the transition speed knob). Or are you finding something else in use?
> 
> I'm trying to use just single tracks since I prefer that - but as I mentioned, the included articulation maps have some issues.


In my experience, Legato delay is for all "attack" (transition) types. The first note needs to be moved closer to the first transition (later in time) to compensate for the delay of all subsequent Bloom/Norm/Bowed transitions in the connected phrase. I believe Cinesamples has a "quantize" mode that accommodates the first note "delayed offset" automagically when the track has predelay, but that enhancement is not in MSS (yet?  ).

Speaking of predelay, I think I have settled on -160ms for now. That seemed to be keeping my slowest quantized transitions on the beat last I was playing around with it. But I am not certain if faster passages would sound early ... at least -160ms gives me the right amount of "wiggle room" to adjust things, like that first note in the phrase which I have been moving later (to the right).


----------



## Soundbed

Question ... this is Con Moto then MSS with the "bowed" transition.

16 players for all Con Moto Violins A & B
vs
15 players MSS Violins 1A & 2A

In the MSS: I hear what I'd call an accent, not really a "bowed" transition and yet I don't know if string players would achieve this with an "accented, fingered" note transition ... would they? Does it sound like a "bowed" transition that is simply less obvious of a bow direction change than Con Moto? Or does it not sound like a bow CHANGE transition?

I'm interested in learning what others are hearing.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Duncan Krummel said:


> Like all things, ease of use may or may not take prior work. I, like many others, thought the high patch count of EWHO, or even EWQLSO, was impossible to work with at first. Then I worked with it, and now it’s fine. Even fast, I’d say. Ease of use and intuitiveness aren’t the same. Notation software is another great example of this.


Perhaps, but on some level if the instrument requires me to tweak it ad nauseam just to make it sound decent, I feel like I am doing less music things and more like I'm doing the developer's job 🤷‍♂️

Nice demo btw!


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> Question ... this is Con Moto then MSS with the "bowed" transition.
> 
> 16 players for all Con Moto Violins A & B
> vs
> 15 players MSS Violins 1A & 2A
> 
> In the MSS: I hear what I'd call an accent, not really a "bowed" transition and yet I don't know if string players would achieve this with an "accented, fingered" note transition ... would they? Does it sound like a "bowed" transition that is simply less obvious of a bow direction change than Con Moto? Or does it not sound like a bow CHANGE transition?
> 
> I'm interested in learning what others are hearing.


They sound quite similar but you are right about the accent, con moto sounds smoother like the players have a better right hand bowing action . It’s all in the wrist and the thumb . Are you able to lengthen the transitions ? Actually not sure you can call the MSS bowed legato , there is too much of a pause between notes.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Duncan Krummel said:


> Ease of use and intuitiveness aren’t the same.


Agreed.



Soundbed said:


> I have tried the Studio One Sound Variation maps provided by AudioBro for MSS but I was getting confused about which ones to load for which instrument. I think I'll write a question on their forum at some point. I don't understand how to use them correctly yet. Or as you say they might need edits.
> 
> In my experience, Legato delay is for all "attack" (transition) types. The first note needs to be moved closer to the first transition (later in time) to compensate for the delay of all subsequent Bloom/Norm/Bowed transitions in the connected phrase. I believe Cinesamples has a "quantize" mode that accommodates the first note "delayed offset" automagically when the track has predelay, but that enhancement is not in MSS (yet?  ).
> 
> Speaking of predelay, I think I have settled on -160ms for now. That seemed to be keeping my slowest quantized transitions on the beat last I was playing around with it. But I am not certain if faster passages would sound early ... at least -160ms gives me the right amount of "wiggle room" to adjust things, like that first note in the phrase which I have been moving later (to the right).


For any of the articulation maps, I just chose one that was in the lowest range so as not to interfere with the instrument and used it for all patches. Seems to work.

Interesting you are setting your track delay so high. I will have to play around with that.


----------



## BasariStudios

Soundbed said:


> I wonder too. They have a different aesthetic in the demos. Elite sounds more obviously "elegant" and crisp in most of the demos, and I think it may be the individual players (and maybe their instruments). It's a very interesting offering and despite the "high" price(s) I am considering them also.


This is a must have Library, i haven't seen or heard anything like this,
the sounds, ease of use, versatility...uuuggghh i have no words.
Playing with MSS and Elite now, it makes MSS pop out a bit.
I got the Standard and even that...i don't feel like it is missing anything.


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> This is a must have Library, i haven't seen or heard anything like this,
> the sounds, ease of use, versatility...uuuggghh i have no words.
> Playing with MSS and Elite not, it makes MSS pop out a bit.
> I got the Standard and even that...i don't feel like it is missing anything.


Playing with MSS and Elite not, it makes MSS pop out a bit.

Do you mind explaining this sentence a little?

ps very restrained of you not to get the full


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Question ... this is Con Moto then MSS with the "bowed" transition.
> 
> 16 players for all Con Moto Violins A & B
> vs
> 15 players MSS Violins 1A & 2A
> 
> In the MSS: I hear what I'd call an accent, not really a "bowed" transition and yet I don't know if string players would achieve this with an "accented, fingered" note transition ... would they? Does it sound like a "bowed" transition that is simply less obvious of a bow direction change than Con Moto? Or does it not sound like a bow CHANGE transition?
> 
> I'm interested in learning what others are hearing.


I have thus far personally found the bow change attack in MSS to be somewhat aggressive, more an accent as you said. The original patches had Rebow AND an accent attack as two separate options, but now there seems to be only one, so I wonder why that is.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

@Soundbed Looks like you are right about the -160ms delay - works well for legato. I'm finding something around -50 or -60ms works for shorts. Need to figure out the right way to do this all on a single track.


----------



## CT

Soundbed said:


> Question ... this is Con Moto then MSS with the "bowed" transition.
> 
> 16 players for all Con Moto Violins A & B
> vs
> 15 players MSS Violins 1A & 2A
> 
> In the MSS: I hear what I'd call an accent, not really a "bowed" transition and yet I don't know if string players would achieve this with an "accented, fingered" note transition ... would they? Does it sound like a "bowed" transition that is simply less obvious of a bow direction change than Con Moto? Or does it not sound like a bow CHANGE transition?
> 
> I'm interested in learning what others are hearing.


Ah yes, another aspect of real performance that sample libraries have totally muddled....

Con Moto sounds like a finger changing position and a bow changing direction simultaneously, which is what it is. MSS sounds more like the bow slows down before each direction change, which I guess is what you describe as feeling like it's more accented. Not to say that this is what was recorded or intended though; isn't the sampled legato in this library of the "fingered" variety, with the "bowed" option as some kind of scripted thing? I'd guess that's why it doesn't work totally smoothly.


----------



## novaburst

ALittleNightMusic said:


> t


i think reading the manual will help, i think the library does offer a concideral amount more than the avarage string library so i would say the manaul is going to be your best friend


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> Playing with MSS and Elite not, it makes MSS pop out a bit.
> 
> Do you mind explaining this sentence a little?
> 
> ps very restrained of you not to get the full


I meant playing NOW. It is an amazing Library. What i meant is
it brings MSS up Front a BIT and when you you turn Molto Vibrato
on Elite Strings together with MSS the whole thing sounds amazing.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Duncan Krummel said:


> Thanks for the kind words! Processing wise, all I’ve truly done is added some reverb with Spaces 2, and perhaps darkened it through the brightness knob (I’m not even sure I did this). Oh, and I did eek in the close mics to the mix mic. I’m not sure everyone caught that the mix mic is Stage and Surround only, as AudioBro have explicitly stated that everyone likes a different amount of close mic.
> 
> MSS is much closer to HWS in terms of dryness, so it make since that it should take to Spaces 2 much better than CSS, and this has been true in all of my testing. Whereas I quite like Trackdown for strings (contrary to most on here, it would seem), it has enough baked in ER that Spaces 2 often creates too much bloom in the sound. MSS, on the other hand, takes to it _very_ cleanly, and it can really help warm up the sound.
> 
> I’d also like to ask, since a few others’ posts suggested it, that if anyone is listening to examples to find where MSS sounds the worst... why? Poor programming will expose just that, poor programming. Why not listen for where it sounds the best to hear what MSS _can_ achieve?


It's really too bad these libraries can't be demo'd. The reason I'm even posting here at all is because there's enough good going on that I can't help but stay at least a little bit interested in MSS, not only for its feature set but for the sound I hear from it sometimes. If I could only demo it, there'd be a lot less talking about it to do (for me), as I have a laundry list of things I'd like to try especially after hearing yours / @Soundbed 's examples and what you're doing to the sounds (and the legato scripting changes done by the user whose name I can't immediately remember). Its room isn't often something I'm very fond of but there are a ton of options to play with for mics/brightness etc.; and that MSS example sounded largely really nice.

If I was making more money right now, I'd like not to be thinking very much about this kind of thing. MSS sounds clearly usable and very useful at the very least, but often much better. Until $, though, nothing beats trying it yourself beforehand to see if you can get the sounds you're wanting out of it. I can't experiment with someone else's hand on the modwheel from 300 miles away, nor would anyone ever want to do something like that... try as we might here in the forum 



TonalDynamics said:


> I feel like I am doing less music things and more like I'm doing the developer's job


There is some truth to this, but at the same time this often comes at the cost of not ending up with a great result only achievable through just that kind of tweaking. It just depends on whether something should have shipped one way or another; if MSS' settings as they are are conducive to something or whether they just simply need to be adjusted.


----------



## Wunderhorn

ALittleNightMusic said:


> @Soundbed Looks like you are right about the -160ms delay - works well for legato. I'm finding something around -50 or -60ms works for shorts. Need to figure out the right way to do this all on a single track.


That.

How to go about that? I wonder if that is something that can be implemented in an instrument patch or if that has to happen in the DAW.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I'm going to expose my inexperience with this question, but what does adding predelay in the DAW influence with regard to legato/shorts? A sense of realism while playing on the keyboard? If not that, then I'm not sure what it is unless somehow it affects the way the scripting of the library works. Which would surprise me quite a bit


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> I meant playing NOW. It is an amazing Library. What i meant is
> it brings MSS up Front a BIT and when you you turn Molto Vibrato
> on Elite Strings together with MSS the whole thing sounds amazing.


Let’s hear some amazing please


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> Let’s hear some amazing please


So i can embarrass my self?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

novaburst said:


> i think reading the manual will help, i think the library does offer a concideral amount more than the avarage string library so i would say the manaul is going to be your best friend


First thing I did - read the manual front to back. It is very comprehensive but that doesn't mean there aren't still unanswered questions.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Wunderhorn said:


> That.
> 
> How to go about that? I wonder if that is something that can be implemented in an instrument patch or if that has to happen in the DAW.


I was contemplating trying to write a KSP script that allowed me to set a delay per articulation, similar to how the CSS script works. Otherwise, I guess I will have to select individual notes and move them back appropriately (say using the Logical Editor in Cubase).



Russell Anderson said:


> I'm going to expose my inexperience with this question, but what does adding predelay in the DAW influence with regard to legato/shorts? A sense of realism while playing on the keyboard? If not that, then I'm not sure what it is unless somehow it affects the way the scripting of the library works. Which would surprise me quite a bit


It's more so that each note plays in time with the click / other tracks as you intended.


----------



## Wunderhorn

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I was contemplating trying to write a KSP script that allowed me to set a delay per articulation, similar to how the CSS script works. Otherwise, I guess I will have to select individual notes and move them back appropriately (say using the Logical Editor in Cubase).


I wonder if we could ask @dxmachina for an official solution?


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> So i can embarrass my self?


No ,just to hear a simple phrase of the 2 together


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I have thus far personally found the bow change attack in MSS to be somewhat aggressive, more an accent as you said. The original patches had Rebow AND an accent attack as two separate options, but now there seems to be only one, so I wonder why that is.


Thanks (for confirming / offering your opinion).

Rebow is the same note, which is sort of a "note swap" if I understand things correctly.

(Usually MIDI pitch A-1.)

So you hold any note, then when you press A-1 and it rebows the pitch you'd been holding and holding A-1 is now the sustain of the rebow'd note.

Bowed / Accent seems like it's for different pitches.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> @Soundbed Looks like you are right about the -160ms delay - works well for legato. I'm finding something around -50 or -60ms works for shorts. Need to figure out the right way to do this all on a single track.


I keep shorts and longs on separate tracks when sending to others (see below).

But there are external tools to do the delay calc for you, (you probably know that) ... and there used to be scripts for it in S1 but I think the underlying code got deprecated. Boy this is an unhelpful reply so far. Sorry. Monday evening and my brain already fried. Anyhoo ... I know there are ways to accomplish it but I have typically been someone who puts shorts in a separate track.

Reasons:

• if you send your MIDI to copyists / orchestrators I believe they generally prefer shorts on separate tracks VS longs; it helps them with the notation etc.

• if you send your audio to mixing engineers or for (e.g., trailer music) libraries for mixing, they prefer shorts on a different track because they tend to process them differently VS longs




Mike T said:


> Ah yes, another aspect of real performance that sample libraries have totally muddled....
> 
> Con Moto sounds like a finger changing position and a bow changing direction simultaneously, which is what it is. MSS sounds more like the bow slows down before each direction change, which I guess is what you describe as feeling like it's more accented. Not to say that this is what was recorded or intended though; isn't the sampled legato in this library of the "fingered" variety, with the "bowed" option as some kind of scripted thing? I'd guess that's why it doesn't work totally smoothly.


Great summary thank you. Yes the "bowed" is (I believe) the accent note attack getting leveraged for a legato (connected) transition, so, scripted as you say. Yes I think muddled is probably a good word for it with sampled libraries in general.


BasariStudios said:


> I meant playing NOW. It is an amazing Library. What i meant is
> it brings MSS up Front a BIT and when you you turn Molto Vibrato
> on Elite Strings together with MSS the whole thing sounds amazing.


@BasariStudios means that layering VSL Elite Strings on MSS makes MSS "pop" – I had to read it a few times myself.

I find that very encouraging and it goes back to something I said many, many pages ago, before Synchron Elite strings was even announced as an upcoming product (I think) ... MSS is going to be great for adding what I like to call "body" to a strings section, and I always assumed I'd layer it with "something" that had a touch more detail and clarity ....

So...

... if something like VSL Elite gives it that added sheen and detail and clarity then ... well ... the best of all worlds, right? MSS can sound grand and majestic and sweeping and "contemporary" (not necessarily 'modernist') especially for scoring for media -- while VSL Elite as the sprinkle on top or during the lightest, gentlest moments can add that "air" of elegance and sophistication. Maybe. That's an idea at least.


Russell Anderson said:


> It's really too bad these libraries can't be demo'd. [...] I can't experiment with someone else's hand on the modwheel from 300 miles away, nor would anyone ever want to do something like that... try as we might here in the forum


Well I have toyed with the idea of doing a live stream where I try ideas recommended by the viewers or load MIDI but I'm not positive it would sound "hi fi" / "hi rez" although I know it does some of the time, it seems occasionally my WiFi / Internet slows down (?) and the signal gets garbly. Something I'm looking to solve, possibly by installing hard wired ethernet. Also getting some nice lights in my studio so I can use camera etc. and "put on a show" lol. I'd need to schedule something and have some participation to try it out with a small group. Not like being able to demo yourself, for sure but somewhere in the middle of listening and "hands on" ... sort of a "remote demo"-ish situation.



TonalDynamics said:


> Perhaps, but on some level if the instrument requires me to tweak it ad nauseam just to make it sound decent, I feel like I am doing less music things and more like I'm doing the developer's job 🤷‍♂️
> 
> Nice demo btw!


What strings libraries don't you tweak ad nauseum?


TonalDynamics said:


> Spitfire and OT have the best libraries in general (with OT coming out on top by a fair margin in my book) when compared to ANYTHING else on the commercial sample market today.
> 
> In fact, anything else newer than the OT stuff I've got _mostly_ sounds worse, and not up to any kind of snuff in particular.
> 
> The real area that OT shines in is in their programming expertise - the patches just WORK, blend flawlessly, are leveled, balanced and transition incredibly well. Also their legato is the most dependably consistent in the whole industry IME


I'll admit, for the stuff I've got, OT have patches that blend well and are leveled and balanced and have good or great transitions.

But I have not bought their flagship libraries. I've only purchased the less expensive, around the edges stuff, like the TIMEs and the ARKs during recent sales.

So I don't know that I've experienced their best legato (?).

And I've found their shorts and other stuff DOES have inconsistencies and bobbles and things to work around that are not easily fix-able without great effort.

So ... with respect to OT, are you talking about Berlin Strings, Woodwinds, Brass specifically? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really want to understand.

~

I will say that each time I've had a "challenge" with MSS, I've been able to get around it because of all the options, so ... I'm thankful that I finally have something where *if I don't like what I hear at first I at least have options to futz with it*  and get what I want out of it – to a great extent, vs what I'm used to being able to accomplish. b/c most of my strings libraries either sound good or don't and I feel very limited trying to get them to do anything other than what they already do.



BasariStudios said:


> I own most of the Libraries you also own, Synchron String Pro is the King of them all lately but...do you share the same feeling? Its Best workflow and ease of use i have seen made me not care so much about its sound.


What is the workflow, for you? I'm still learning how to make use of the Synchron player in my day to day work. I could explain its basic functions to someone else, I think. But using it myself, I don't have a good sense of "flow" with it yet. How do you "automate" the selection of the articulations in all the columns? I suppose typing it out my question has some obvious answers... I'll leave it here in case I can learn from you.


Toecutter said:


> Thanks for doing this. CSS blows everything else out of the water and SSP a close second to my surprise!


I've listened to it a few times on different speakers and in different settings and VSL is the winner by a slim margin, for me.

CSS has some great phrasing and gesture, but the sound itself is oddly ... muffly? You know how when you bend a piece of old colored plastic and it turns white? Sounds a bit like that looks. (random, I know...) There are weird resonances that I'd tame in the mix and it would sound fine though. It does have musical playing, until the last note feels which slightly truncated relative to the others.

But if there were no changes, VSL would be my pick *for that phrase *and given only those recordings to choose from. I'm thinking they could all execute it adequately in context.

MSS is fine and Spitfire is fine. VSL is best as the "exposed" example, and CSS would sound fine with some foley and dialog over it


----------



## Soundbed

Russell Anderson said:


> I'm going to expose my inexperience with this question, but what does adding predelay in the DAW influence with regard to legato/shorts? A sense of realism while playing on the keyboard? If not that, then I'm not sure what it is unless somehow it affects the way the scripting of the library works. Which would surprise me quite a bit


You start the notes early.

This way, the DAW has a chance to PREPARE for the note transition.

It lets the DAW "think" like a player reading ahead on the score.

You start the MIDI a few dozen milliseconds ahead of time.

The DAW signals to the instrument that a note transition is coming up.

The instrument prepares the correct legato transition and starts it early, to prepare, and...

...LAND on the beat ("in the pocket") right when the transition is peaking and then crossfade quickly into the next sustain.



Wunderhorn said:


> I wonder if we could ask @dxmachina for an official solution?


My guess (and I could be wrong) is the answer will be to use one of the many tools that were developed for CSS... I mean, wasn't the request for delayed legato based on the VI-Control exposure to the "laggy" CSS legato that sounds convincing? I have mentioned some of the tools available in my CSS "tips" videos but I'm blanking on the names at the moment (and solutions can be DAW dependent).

~

Okay. Mega-reply complete.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Thanks (for confirming / offering your opinion).
> 
> Rebow is the same note, which is sort of a "note swap" if I understand things correctly.
> 
> (Usually MIDI pitch A-1.)
> 
> So you hold any note, then when you press A-1 and it rebows the pitch you'd been holding and holding A-1 is now the sustain of the rebow'd note.
> 
> Bowed / Accent seems like it's for different pitches.


Right, that's what I thought, but their original UI had all three - repeat key, Rebow, and Accent. So where did Rebow go if it was different than the other two? Or Accent if Bowed is the new Rebow?








Soundbed said:


> I keep shorts and longs on separate tracks when sending to others (see below).
> 
> But there are external tools to do the delay calc for you, (you probably know that) ... and there used to be scripts for it in S1 but I think the underlying code got deprecated. Boy this is an unhelpful reply so far. Sorry. Monday evening and my brain already fried. Anyhoo ... I know there are ways to accomplish it but I have typically been someone who puts shorts in a separate track.
> 
> Reasons:
> 
> • if you send your MIDI to copyists / orchestrators I believe they generally prefer shorts on separate tracks VS longs; it helps them with the notation etc.
> 
> • if you send your audio to mixing engineers or for (e.g., trailer music) libraries for mixing, they prefer shorts on a different track because they tend to process them differently VS longs


Yeah, but I really don't enjoy working with multiple tracks for the same instrument (and don't send my music to either of those groups). Articulation maps are a Godsend IMO...which are then somewhat pointless if you end up splitting up your track anyway. I haven't seen any generic delay KSP scripts or anything - just the CSS one which only works for CSS.



Soundbed said:


> I've listened to it a few times on different speakers and in different settings and VSL is the winner by a slim margin, for me.
> 
> CSS has some great phrasing and gesture, but the sound itself is oddly ... muffly? You know how when you bend a piece of old colored plastic and it turns white? Sounds a bit like that looks. (random, I know...) There are weird resonances that I'd tame in the mix and it would sound fine though. It does have musical playing, until the last note feels which slightly truncated relative to the others.
> 
> But if there were no changes, VSL would be my pick *for that phrase *and given only those recordings to choose from. I'm thinking they could all execute it adequately in context.
> 
> MSS is fine and Spitfire is fine. VSL is best as the "exposed" example, and CSS would sound fine with some foley and dialog over it


I really love VSL Synchron Strings Pro. Whether it is this phrase or another, it always seems to work well. I don't plan on getting Elite Strings though. CSS does always sound muffled to me in these comparisons - but of course is probably the most recommended string library available right now.

I wonder if layering the solo instruments from MSS would be more beneficial than layering Elite (certainly would be cheaper if you already have MSS). I tried that and have added another comparison but with the solo violin playing alongside violins 1 for MSS.

Order is MSS, SSS, SSP, CSS


----------



## dxmachina

Wunderhorn said:


> I wonder if we could ask @dxmachina for an official solution?


This is something we've thought about. Not sure if you're familiar what we did with "Lookahead" in Genesis and Modern Scoring Brass? We have a similar interest here.

This is a remarkably complex thing to make work for legato universally, but mostly due to poly legato being part of the equation. I can't 100% say yet what we'll be doing in this area because the scope may extend to some things that haven't (to my knowledge) been done before, but lookahead has been a staple feature for our last 2 releases. It would be simplest to achieve if limited to mono-legato mode (meaning mono legato _and_ all other artics). Let me just get our crack programming team on it...

oh wait...

In any case, I hope it's (somewhat) clear now that we have every intention of making this a library that will continue to develop and grow. There are at least 2 or 3 other top-line features that we plan to introduce in the future. Obviously legato had to take priority for 1.1, but we have no intention of stopping there.


----------



## Noc

dxmachina said:


> There are at least 2 or 3 other top-line features that we plan to introduce in the future.


Certainly appreciate the work you’ve done so far and already thankful for all you intend to add in the future. If you don’t mind, can you give us a little hint of what updates are coming next? Do any of them perhaps involve the tone/room sound (as much as than even can be tweaked) of the library?


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> No ,just to hear a simple phrase of the 2 together


Ok, i did it for you...whatever it is...
THIS is layered MSS Violins and Elite Violins 1.
Shut Reverbs on both, Elite Classic Room Mix
and riding the same Modulation on both.
First Part both on Longs, Elite Molto Vibrato
and MSS No Legato in Divisi. Second Part both
in Legato, Elite in Speed Controlled and MSS
no Divisi in Legato Mode...I don't know, sound
is very subjective but with Elite i like MSS even more.
This recording took me 3 minutes.
I could only imagine sitting on both and doing magic.


----------



## BasariStudios

Soundbed said:


> What is the workflow, for you? I'm still learning how to make use of the Synchron player in my day to day work. I could explain its basic functions to someone else, I think. But using it myself, I don't have a good sense of "flow" with it yet. How do you "automate" the selection of the articulations in all the columns? I suppose typing it out my question has some obvious answers... I'll leave it here in case I can learn from you.


What i learnt to do and found it way easier was to split the 
Articulations per Track but by what i call Bundle, how they
are bundled in the Dimension Tree in Synchron.
So, open Synchron, Delete everything except Shorts and 
you lose one Branch Depth which becomes easier to deal
with the Short Articulations. Now if you go INSIDE the Shorts
you can clean it further. Same thing with other Articulations.
I also create a MIDI Track and assign it to the same Instance
of Synchron just for the Key Switches, its easier and i don't mess up.
Than...i also have a Novation SL MK3 and a Novation Zero SL MK2.
On the MK 2 i have all the Buttons assigned to key switches for
many Libraries, just Load a Template and all of them follow the same
order. Zero SL MK2 has a nice Buttons Layout and has 10s of them.
When using SS PRO with it its a charm, better than any MIDI Controller,
i can access any Art in SS PRO while playing on the fly.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Soundbed said:


> What strings libraries don't you tweak ad nauseum?


Well in all fairness probably not many, haha.

But my point isn't so much that 'they don't need tweaking to sound their best', more like 'if it doesn't sound good and play well out of the box, the developer still has some work to do'.

It's like someone who saves up and buys a new Ferrari, but when you pick it up at the shop they tell you it comes without traction control, broken air-conditioning and has a rev limiter that stops it from going over 80 MPH...

I could certainly go mod the car at the shop to 'unlock' its full potential, but why the hell pay a premium if you have to spend precious time to 'tweak' it just so that it works as advertised? Assuming the quality samples and recordings are there, this is just plain laziness on the part of the developer. Or admittedly, as if often the case, tight deadlines where they end up shipping an unpolished product.

I am curious actually as another person asked earlier in this thread, to hear it directly from an owner of the product who has played with the update: How much of a different beast/more improved is MSS after 1.1 compared to release (which most of the demos seem to come from)? Like which features in particular do you find to be most fixed/improved?



Soundbed said:


> I'll admit, for the stuff I've got, OT have patches that blend well and are leveled and balanced and have good or great transitions.
> 
> But I have not bought their flagship libraries. I've only purchased the less expensive, around the edges stuff, like the TIMEs and the ARKs during recent sales.
> 
> So I don't know that I've experienced their best legato (?).
> 
> And I've found their shorts and other stuff DOES have inconsistencies and bobbles and things to work around that are not easily fix-able without great effort.
> 
> So ... with respect to OT, are you talking about Berlin Strings, Woodwinds, Brass specifically? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really want to understand.


Pretty much all 3 of those libraries yeah.

And don't get me wrong, OT isn't 'perfect', and I don't believe there is any such thing as a 'perfect' sample library, only that some get a lot closer than others.

It's just that on the whole, OT to me has the most immediately playable/recordable orchestral instruments which are _consistently_ programmed and scripted well.

To be clear I'm coming from a writing/composition perspective, as opposed to say strictly programming which you could probably judge by different metrics.

When I'm writing, I want something that can reliably deliever a decent approximation of a sound I am imagining - you take 10 minutes to tweak all that and get something close to what you want and suddenly you've lost the "moment", or the train of thought you were in, and have to regain a new one.

OT have obviously got this sort of 'unified approach' going with the way they script their libraries to make the timing, dynamic crossfades, balance, etc. consistently good and 'tight'.

Whereas a lot of developer's products can sound great on one project and then have loads of issues on another (Cinesamples comes to mind in this department), so I think there is something to be said for that degree of continuity across different releases.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

TonalDynamics said:


> It's like someone who saves up and buys a new Ferrari, but when you pick it up at the shop they tell you it comes without traction control, broken air-conditioning and has a rev limiter that stops it from going over 80 MPH...


That’s not really a fair comparison, though. In this example you’re unable to use the product effectively because the manufacturer either left something out or put an arbitrary restriction on it. Something developers DO do. A better metaphor for MSS is that your brand new Ferrari is a stick shift, which you’ve no experience with. You have to learn how to use it, and set up the seat and mirrors the way that works best for you. After that, you’re golden.

I’m not done setting up MSS the way I use it, but - from having done this with at least a few patches - it’s now load and play. This is my broader point, libraries that offer such deep flexibility require you to set them up the way you’d like to use them. I’d liken it to instructing performers on specific performance techniques or practices you’d like them to employ. Once you’ve done this, though, the prep work is done more or less. You can get on with working with it. MSS’ out of the box nature is by design, not in spite of it.


----------



## Soundbed

TonalDynamics said:


> Well in all fairness probably not many, haha.
> 
> But my point isn't so much that 'they don't need tweaking to sound their best', more like 'if it doesn't sound good and play well out of the box, the developer still has some work to do'.
> 
> It's like someone who saves up and buys a new Ferrari, but when you pick it up at the shop they tell you it comes without traction control, broken air-conditioning and has a rev limiter that stops it from going over 80 MPH...
> 
> I could certainly go mod the car at the shop to 'unlock' its full potential, but why the hell pay a premium if you have to spend precious time to 'tweak' it just so that it works as advertised? Assuming the quality samples and recordings are there, this is just plain laziness on the part of the developer. Or admittedly, as if often the case, tight deadlines where they end up shipping an unpolished product.
> 
> I am curious actually as another person asked earlier in this thread, to hear it directly from an owner of the product who has played with the update: How much of a different beast/more improved is MSS after 1.1 compared to release (which most of the demos seem to come from)? Like which features in particular do you find to be most fixed/improved?
> 
> 
> Pretty much all 3 of those libraries yeah.
> 
> And don't get me wrong OT isn't 'perfect', and I don't believe there is any such thing as a 'perfect' sample library.
> 
> It's just that on the whole, OT to me has the most immediately playable/recordable orchestral instruments which are _consistently_ programmed and scripted well.
> 
> OT have obviously got a this unified approach going with the way they script their libraries to make the timing consistently good and 'tight'.
> 
> Whereas a lot of developer's products can sound great on one project and then have loads of issues on another (Cinesamples comes to mind in this department), so I think there is something to be said for that degree of continuity across different releases.


I get the car mod analogy. In practice I don't have any strings libraries I don't have to tweak "a lot" if I'm trying to get them to write a part I have in mind.

They sound great until they don't, and then I usually cannot make them do what I want them to do.

So I end up writing for the library.

If Berlin Strings doesn't do that (or maybe Synchron Pro or Elite) then I have yet to experience what you're describing. It's an analogy only; a hypothetical to me, not a real life practical experience of mine.

I try not to blame the developers anymore... sometimes they programmed something that is obviously "wrong" or inconsistent but often they had to make a choice, a compromise. And their compromise isn't what I wanted to hear, and I have no choice other than to use their compromise or like I said, write with their solution as the result.

The difference with MSS (so far) is I _usually_ can find a way with what they've provided do make it "do" what I want, for the most part.

re: MSS v1.1 improvements -- The main things they improved were the legato and the ostinatos. I am working on a longer more edited / semi scripted video to demonstrate from my perspective.

The addition of the custom tables is nice -- for instance some of the slowest solo violin transitions seem too loud for very gentle sections even with Bloom, so I can make my own automation or table to turn them down.

The ability to automate whatever I want in terms of transition volume, speed and offset are pretty great – does any other library let you change all three? (I'm really not sure.)

And while others might think it's a hassle, computers only do what you tell them to do and they cannot read your mind. Every *strings* product I've tried that claims to "play what you intended" doesn't live up to the hype, for me.

The exception for me might be Josh Bell violin, which is a little more like you gave Josh some instructions and he interpreted them in a way that was difficult to question. This may be what you're describing with OT. Maybe it doesn't play it the way you thought but it's still an "unquestionably good" interpretation of the input you provided.

@Duncan Krummel said it well above. MSS is providing me with a few more places to "instruct the virtual instrument" to "perform" what I had in mind than most of my other packages. Although I don't own Berlin Strings or Synchron ... and I never really dove super deep into Hollywood, so I'm not saying it's the only one. But I do think it's "not a hassle" to have all these options; I think it's a blessing.


----------



## Soundbed

If someone says SWAM I'm going to say there's a point of diminishing returns and that's a bridge too far, for me. MSS is closer to the sweet spot, for my sensibilities, in 2021.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

It's important to differentiate between flexibility and usability. LASS was very flexible for example, but one of the things that it struggled with IMO was usability. Of course, if you were committed enough, you could set up the whole ARC thing and Sound & Stage and configure everything just the way you wanted (not to mention ART, which I think most owners didn't touch). Then there is something like Albion 1 - not too flexible, but great usability. Plug and play pretty much - as long as you want what it does when you plug it in.

With MSS, I think AudioBro has improved on LASS's usability, while pushing the flexibility even further (which is very impressive). I think (as a new user) there are probably a couple of more tweaks they could make to make the out of box usability even more pleasant. VSL I think strikes this balance pretty well. Synchron Player is incredibly deep, but the libraries don't ask for or expect the user to change much of anything out of the box. You could never dive into any of the advanced features and still be quite happy. I think MSS is not too far from that honestly - there's a couple of default on options that I would maybe turn off or bring to the front on the Performance page, since it could trip up a new user coming from another library / paradigm (as it did to me - which was frustrating), but in general it is quite good. The more I play with it or play back my example above, the more I like the tone as well (and I haven't even touched the default sound). Like I said, my preference is while the option to modify is there, I want the developer to present such a great out of the box experience and sound that I could never need to dive under the hood and still be happy. After all, I'm paying them for that - just like I'm paying Spitfire for the space and Jake Jackson's engineering / mixing (and yeah, it makes a difference).


----------



## Wunderhorn

MSS: When you use section patches - e.g. Violins, or Violin 1 with auto divisi on, how do you (per cc?) switch quickly to an isolated divisi sound and then go back?
I am trying to stay within one track, with auto divisi on by default. Hitting one note triggers all divisi sections, if I switch auto divisi off (the on/off I think can be automated via MIDI Learn), does one note play one divisi section?
To me this part of the ensemble builder in the manual wasn't quite clear.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Soundbed said:


> The exception for me might be Josh Bell violin, which is a little more like you gave Josh some instructions and he interpreted them in a way that was difficult to question. This may be what you're describing with OT. Maybe it doesn't play it the way you thought but it's still an "unquestionably good" interpretation of the input you provided.


Pretty much exactly this, yes.

I would say OT generally is as close to _most_ other sample instruments in terms of playability as JBV is to 99% of solo instrument VSTi - probably not quite as substantial of a lead as JBV has over the others but still in that same relative position.

If only every sample library was as deftly performed, recorded, produced, programmed, scripted, ETC. as JBV... but alas, if wishes were horses then beggars would ride.

I also probably wouldn't spend nearly as much time on this forum asking people's opinions and experiences with certain libraries and do a lot more actual recording instead, which would be a real tragedy.

I swear Embertone got the assistance of some aliens who traveled back through time just to show us all how to create a proper sample instrument when they put that thing together.




Soundbed said:


> @Duncan Krummel said it well above. MSS is providing me with a few more places to "instruct the virtual instrument" to "perform" what I had in mind than most of my other packages. Although I don't own Berlin Strings or Synchron ... and I never really dove super deep into Hollywood, so I'm not saying it's the only one. But I do think it's "not a hassle" to have all these options; I think it's a blessing.


Honestly I feel like the demos I've heard from VSL Synchron are the best commercial strings I've heard to date, and they are definitely on my shortlist of things to impulse buy, but with all the other crap that I've got I just can't justify the price tag atm. Anyone want to sell it on the cheap?


----------



## molemac

BasariStudios said:


> Ok, i did it for you...whatever it is...
> THIS is layered MSS Violins and Elite Violins 1.
> Shut Reverbs on both, Elite Classic Room Mix
> and riding the same Modulation on both.
> First Part both on Longs, Elite Molto Vibrato
> and MSS No Legato in Divisi. Second Part both
> in Legato, Elite in Speed Controlled and MSS
> no Divisi in Legato Mode...I don't know, sound
> is very subjective but with Elite i like MSS even more.
> This recording took me 3 minutes.
> I could only imagine sitting on both and doing magic.


Obviously hard to tell like that but I could see Elite adding some extra expression to MSS using the molto vibs . And the cellos seem to sound much nicer than MSS so a combo could be the way to go.


----------



## novaburst

ALittleNightMusic said:


> First thing I did - read the manual front to back. It is very comprehensive but that doesn't mean there aren't still unanswered questions.


I see what you mean I like the adventure of unlocking this perticular library and finding hacks if you like, I think its already been said the more you use it the more you will like it and I am certainly liking it both sound, tone and player, and also like the new update the library has a very hard upper cut punch, and I think it's hear to stay.


----------



## BasariStudios

molemac said:


> Obviously hard to tell like that but I could see Elite adding some extra expression to MSS using the molto vibs . And the cellos seem to sound much nicer than MSS so a combo could be the way to go.


I will do tonight with and without Elite, I forgot about that.


----------



## paulwr

I'm curious if anyone yet has gotten fluent enough with MSS to commit to building a template and control surface settings with it running on a server rather that than the DAW. I've been using MSS on every cue I have done since purchasing ten days ago. Not a lot of time experimenting yet, just 'get the job done' which it has been great for. I'm hoping to get a lot of the capability into my control surface and have the main instances running on my strings server and then run from my DAW only when necessary to access deeper control a little more quickly as needed. There is so much to control that I may label buttons and faders just for MSS since all indications are it will be the main strings library, taking most of LASS' duties. I have a good amount of Spitfire, Hollywood Strings and some others but they usually wind up being used for blending occasionally. When I'm doing string arrangements for songs, LASS is pretty much always the one I use. When I stick something else in, it doesn't sound like a small string section in a studio. Even SF Chamber strings small size sounds too big due to the lush and beautiful acoustics in Lyndhurst Hall, Air Studios. SF Studio Strings are drier, though. Don't use them too much as their divisi target was severely missed by not having slides for the smaller divisi sections, just the one big one in each string group. Who wants divisi without the ability to have any divisi part slide when wanted? They told me they would be adding it and never did.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Lot of recent buyer's regret regarding MSS on this thread, even after the 1.1 update https://vi-control.net/community/threads/what-samples-have-you-regretted-buying.89510/ - wonder if those owners would chime in here with what issues they were still having since AudioBro *is* listening.


----------



## dhowarthmusic

Not sure if anyone here has tried to combine MSS with LASS yet so I'm reposting my Rachmaninov example I posted on page 189 that I did with the Intuition patches. I've redone it with the new 1.1 patches and also a version combined with LASS using LASS as a close mic when combined with the MSS Mix mics. It suddenly becomes richer and more full when adding LASS playing the same midi.


----------



## CoffeeLover

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lot of recent buyer's regret regarding MSS on this thread, even after the 1.1 update https://vi-control.net/community/threads/what-samples-have-you-regretted-buying.89510/ - wonder if those owners would chime in here with what issues they were still having since AudioBro *is* listening.


i remember Spitfire Hans Zimmer strings took a massive beating,i couldnt stand the negativity it felt like i was eating shit reading that thread. but today its one of the unique gems out there in my opinion although it took awhile. MMS is definitly and immediatly moving there too.


----------



## Pablocrespo

If you want my opinion, I can gel with the sound yet, the mix mic doesn´t work for me, I am using just the close mic and trying to see if I can work with them. early days still


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

CoffeeLover said:


> i remember Spitfire Hans Zimmer strings took a massive beating,i couldnt stand the negativity it felt like i was eating shit reading that thread. but today its one of the unique gems out there in my opinion although it took awhile. MMS is definitly and immediatly moving there too.


True, but Spitfire also added 60GB of new content for HZ Strings. I wonder if that is what would be required for MSS or if it is just a learning curve thing.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Pablocrespo said:


> If you want my opinion, I can gel with the sound yet, the mix mic doesn´t work for me, I am using just the close mic and trying to see if I can work with them. early days still


What are you comparing it against that you prefer the tone of?


----------



## Pablocrespo

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What are you comparing it against that you prefer the tone of?


CSS, LASS (dry, no stage and color), Holywood strings, albion, 
And general strings sound I tend to gravitate to...it´s just my taste, no matter how I try to eq it I just don´t like it.

I am using just the close mics now, with better results. but it will be almost always doubled with something else.


----------



## turnerofwheels

ALittleNightMusic said:


> True, but Spitfire also added 60GB of new content for HZ Strings. I wonder if that is what would be required for MSS or if it is just a learning curve thing.


Regarding that new content, I find that it's hard to go back once you've worked with 20 dynamic layers (I'd take that over 20 mic positions anyday).

MSS is an odd one. I couldn't get remotely close to delicate textures in the longs like this with anything else in my library (SSS, SCS, LCO, cinestrings) because it needs "thin" divisi sections and restrained vibrato to work.

But then the legato at times.. hm. (This is version 1. I won't have time to crack into V1.1 for probably another week or so..)

I think this will be more of a shimmery divisi sound design texture library for me. Also, in other tests of mine it seems to get closer to the MCU TV sound than other libraries I've tried. But for straight up plonking in ye olde 4,5 part string harmony and tweaking attacks+CC1, not so sure yet


----------



## Soundbed

Wunderhorn said:


> MSS: When you use section patches - e.g. Violins, or Violin 1 with auto divisi on, how do you (per cc?) switch quickly to an isolated divisi sound and then go back?
> I am trying to stay within one track, with auto divisi on by default. Hitting one note triggers all divisi sections, if I switch auto divisi off (the on/off I think can be automated via MIDI Learn), does one note play one divisi section?
> To me this part of the ensemble builder in the manual wasn't quite clear.


"how do you switch quickly to an isolated divisi sound and then go back?"

I haven't tried it but from memory you'd:
1 - Save each ensemble "build" with a different name in the open slots.
2 - Assign each build a slot in the Switcher tool for the ensembles
3 - specify the control to switch between them in the switcher

"Hitting one note triggers all divisi sections, if I switch [...] does one note play one divisi section?"

Not exactly what you asked, but, to get one section to play one note with divisi ON, change to "per note" from the default of "Tutti".


----------



## biomuse

SHANE TURNER said:


> Regarding that new content, I find that it's hard to go back once you've worked with 20 dynamic layers (I'd take that over 20 mic positions anyday).
> 
> MSS is an odd one. I couldn't get remotely close to delicate textures in the longs like this with anything else in my library (SSS, SCS, LCO, cinestrings) because it needs "thin" divisi sections and restrained vibrato to work.
> 
> But then the legato at times.. hm. (This is version 1. I won't have time to crack into V1.1 for probably another week or so..)
> 
> I think this will be more of a shimmery divisi sound design texture library for me. Also, in other tests of mine it seems to get closer to the MCU TV sound than other libraries I've tried. But for straight up plonking in ye olde 4,5 part string harmony and tweaking attacks+CC1, not so sure yet


That's just good music.


----------



## Soundbed

Here's a few chords I'm working on for a piece. First with a quiet Berlin First Chair viola and CSW, then MSS only.

What do you think? Of the sound, the legato, anything.

EDIT - I'll add the CSW woodwind and Berlin solo (FC) viola parts so you can hear what they are contributing quietly during the first pass...


----------



## Wunderhorn

Soundbed said:


> "how do you switch quickly to an isolated divisi sound and then go back?"
> 
> I haven't tried it but from memory you'd:
> 1 - Save each ensemble "build" with a different name in the open slots.
> 2 - Assign each build a slot in the Switcher tool for the ensembles
> 3 - specify the control to switch between them in the switcher
> 
> "Hitting one note triggers all divisi sections, if I switch [...] does one note play one divisi section?"
> 
> Not exactly what you asked, but, to get one section to play one note with divisi ON, change to "per note" from the default of "Tutti".


Thanks. I'll have to experiment with the ensemble builder, but for a quick fix switching between tutti and "per note" does the trick. Assigned a CC and done.


----------



## borisb2

Soundbed said:


> Here's a few chords I'm working on for a piece. First with a quiet Berlin First Chair viola and CSW, then MSS only.
> 
> What do you think? Of the sound, the legato, anything.


sounds awesome! .. I guess you meant CSS?


----------



## Soundbed

borisb2 said:


> sounds awesome! .. I guess you meant CSS?


no, CSW

(there's Clarinets, Alto Flute and English Horn playing the melody as I recall. they are pretty quiet)


----------



## biomuse

Soundbed said:


> Here's a few chords I'm working on for a piece. First with a quiet Berlin First Chair viola and CSW, then MSS only.
> 
> What do you think? Of the sound, the legato, anything.


Weighty. Nice changes.


----------



## Soundbed

SHANE TURNER said:


> it seems to get closer to the MCU TV sound than other libraries I've tried


this ^^^

great piece by the way


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Here's a few chords I'm working on for a piece. First with a quiet Berlin First Chair viola and CSW, then MSS only.
> 
> What do you think? Of the sound, the legato, anything.


Very nicely done! Quite a nice warm tone - was the default patch adjusted? I've found the default mix to be pretty warm (Surprisingly given some previous examples), but I think that also requires not riding the dynamics too high.


----------



## paulwr

Soundbed said:


> Here's a few chords I'm working on for a piece. First with a quiet Berlin First Chair viola and CSW, then MSS only.
> 
> What do you think? Of the sound, the legato, anything.


Both sound beautiful. And for me, just more evidence that MSS may very well become my strings workhorse. Not yet ready to declare it from the mountain tops, I need much more time. As I create templates and assign things from the control surface, and work with that, it should all become crystal clear. Thanks for all the demos by the way!


----------



## turnerofwheels

Soundbed said:


> this ^^^
> 
> great piece by the way


Thanks! Same to yours. It's also all MSS (other than the spitfire swarm flute and hz piano)

Well, I figured who needs sleep anyway.. and found myself messing about with the 1.1 update after all. I still encountered some bumps with slow legato transitions, but so far, easier to work with than 1.0 for sure.


----------



## CoffeeLover

ALittleNightMusic said:


> True, but Spitfire also added 60GB of new content for HZ Strings. I wonder if that is what would be required for MSS or if it is just a learning curve thing.


This Library is a big project and they wont simply just abandon that project.
thats for sure.
i think Audiobro will do what is needed to reach the best possible state for their products.


----------



## Soundbed

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Very nicely done! Quite a nice warm tone - was the default patch adjusted? I've found the default mix to be pretty warm (Surprisingly given some previous examples), but I think that also requires not riding the dynamics too high.


yes I made adjustments, these are not default patches. but nothing crazy imho, only simply stuff I do to most strings parts in my mixes.

actually i started with the result of my EWHO comparison video and made minor adjustments from there


----------



## Soundbed

added the CSW winds and Berlin FC Viola audio in separate files so anyone can hear what they were contributing to the previous post https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-4803563


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Curious what the CSS/MSS users think of the tone of this string example. How would you compare the timbre/recording/room quality vs that of MSS or CSS (I know they're different, but probably the most talked about libraries on this forum)

Can you guess which library this is?


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Also @Soundbed curious what you think of this run/library?
I was watching your YouTube video and took a stab at a similar run!


----------



## paulwr

SHANE TURNER said:


> Well, I figured who needs sleep anyway.. and found myself messing about with the 1.1 update after all. I still encountered some bumps with slow legato transitions, but so far, easier to work with than 1.0 for sure.


So warm and good, this just feels so great. Excellent man, writing and the strings sound wonderful, your post is appreciated.


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> Also @Soundbed curious what you think of this run/library?
> I was watching your YouTube video and took a stab at a similar run!


I don’t know which library it is. Difficult to guess from my iPad sorry.


----------



## dxmachina

Wow. So nice to visit and hear all these lovely bits of music!



Noc said:


> If you don’t mind, can you give us a little hint of what updates are coming next? Do any of them perhaps involve the tone/room sound (as much as than even can be tweaked) of the library?



Yes, possibly. We're first finishing the Expanded Legato update (probably for early next week) and working on some usability features to make some common repeated tasks easier. For instance (as referenced a few pages back) intelligent lookahead that can keep quantized legato MIDI in time, getting a button on the ends of ostinato passages, codifying some common performance layerings, etc. But a timbral color solution is definitely possible. It's really a question of how much value it would add OOTB vs what can be done with superior DSP (and often performance) using external processing. 

Any users with feedback should _always_ feel free to email, post in our forums, or just PM me.


----------



## paulwr

dxmachina said:


> We're first finishing the Expanded Legato update (probably for early next week) and working on some usability features to make some common repeated tasks easier. For instance (as referenced a few pages back) intelligent lookahead that can keep quantized legato MIDI in time, getting a button on the ends of ostinato passages, codifying some common performance layerings, etc.


VERY nice!


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina Sounds like some cool new features coming soon, very nice.

Regarding the timbral thing, speaking only for myself, I very much prefer solutions that are as close to OOTB as possible. If I have two libraries that can produce a target sound, but one requires a lot more finagling than the other, I’m far more likely to use the latter in the end. That’s kinda where I am with MSS right now; going back to LASS, the Colors dropdown right on the front of the GUI is basically the ideal – if you don’t like the tone, or want something in particular, just select the preset you want, bam, done. A dozen different-sounding rooms (so to speak) at a click of a button; no setting up sends and dialing in EQs and reverbs and trial-and-error-ing different plugins and so on. Really, I feel like simply setting up a similar IR system in MSS might be the most straightforward and effective solution, but that’s just my guess and I don’t know how applicable it may be to MSS.

As for adding value, in all honesty my only remaining issue with MSS (from hearing all the demos and playing around with it a little) is with its kinda stuffy/boxy tone, but it is a big one – the depth and feature set is extraordinary, but having to spend a longer time getting it to sound the way I want compared to other libraries is a bit of an achilles’ heel. So I really think if we can just open up that room some, and make it quick & easy to do so from scratch, it’ll give the library the push it needs to land on top of the competition.


----------



## GingerMaestro

Noc said:


> @dxmachina Sounds like some cool new features coming soon, very nice.
> 
> Regarding the timbral thing, speaking only for myself, I very much prefer solutions that are as close to OOTB as possible. If I have two libraries that can produce a target sound, but one requires a lot more finagling than the other, I’m far more likely to use the latter in the end. That’s kinda where I am with MSS right now; going back to LASS, the Colors dropdown right on the front of the GUI is basically the ideal – if you don’t like the tone, or want something in particular, just select the preset you want, bam, done. A dozen different-sounding rooms (so to speak) at a click of a button; no setting up sends and dialing in EQs and reverbs and trial-and-error-ing different plugins and so on. Really, I feel like simply setting up a similar IR system in MSS might be the most straightforward and effective solution, but that’s just my guess and I don’t know how applicable it may be to MSS.
> 
> As for adding value, in all honesty my only remaining issue with MSS (from hearing all the demos and playing around with it a little) is with its kinda stuffy/boxy tone, but it is a big one – the depth and feature set is extraordinary, but having to spend a longer time getting it to sound the way I want compared to other libraries is a bit of an achilles’ heel. So I really think if we can just open up that room some, and make it quick & easy to do so from scratch, it’ll give the library the push it needs to land on top of the competition.


In the meantime, would any other users care to share some eq and processing settings that they are enjoying. eq and processing aren’t my forte, so would love to see what plugins etc others are using...


----------



## BasariStudios

How the people from Audio Bro are handling all this
and their response and cooperation i would buy it
even if it was the worst product on the Planet...
(i bought it and it almost the Best product with little tweaks).


----------



## Soundbed

GingerMaestro said:


> In the meantime, would any other users care to share some eq and processing settings that they are enjoying. eq and processing aren’t my forte, so would love to see what plugins etc others are using...


If you have iZotope Neutron Sculptor, try choosing High Strings (for all of MSS) and pull the window up to around 120Hz so nothing below that band is affected. Dial down the main intensity to around 25 from the default of 50.

(Start by removing all Kontakt EQ and Reverb.)







And/or try Xfer OTT (it's free) with the time to 1000% and the Depth to around 5-25%.


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> If you have iZotope Neutron Sculptor, try choosing High Strings (for all of MSS) and pull the window up to around 120Hz so nothing below that band is affected. Dial down the main intensity to around 25 from the default of 50.
> 
> (Start by removing all Kontakt EQ and Reverb.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And/or try Xfer OTT (it's free) with the time to 1000% and the Depth to around 20%.


Do you mind adding your fab filter dynamic eq settings? 20% on ott seems like quite a lot of xtra fizz/ shushiness


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> Do you mind adding your fab filter dynamic eq settings? 20% on ott seems like quite a lot of xtra fizz/ shushiness


Sorry you're right, I was regretting posting that. 5-25% on OTT Depth ... it's like salt. 

I'll make a video on the others.


----------



## paulwr

Noc said:


> If I have two libraries that can produce a target sound, but one requires a lot more finagling than the other, I’m far more likely to use the latter in the end. That’s kinda where I am with MSS right now; going back to LASS, the Colors dropdown right on the front of the GUI is basically the ideal – if you don’t like the tone, or want something in particular, just select the preset you want, bam, done.


Honestly, if you take some time upfront to dial in a few very good versions of the sound using your own mixing tools and save as a track preset in you DAW, it ought to be of greater quality than Audiobro doing some from within Kontakt. Your own tools for that are superior. I'm not sure what you may do in music, but templates are pretty great if you take the time to do them well. My first big orchestral template was spread across four computers and handled about 1500 sounds (small by Hollywood standard at the time). It was primarily a giant key switching template to make composing faster for TV stuff. Took me about six weeks six hours a day (would never take me that long now), BUT the point: That template lasted me close to eight years, with some updates with new libraries along the way.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

dhowarthmusic said:


> Not sure if anyone here has tried to combine MSS with LASS yet so I'm reposting my Rachmaninov example I posted on page 189 that I did with the Intuition patches. I've redone it with the new 1.1 patches and also a version combined with LASS using LASS as a close mic when combined with the MSS Mix mics. It suddenly becomes richer and more full when adding LASS playing the same midi.


Damn, this right here, plus the Ostinato system may have completely sold me on MSS now. 
I bet it will blend nicely with BBC core and Cinebrass Sonore too...


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Baronvonheadless said:


> Curious what the CSS/MSS users think of the tone of this string example. How would you compare the timbre/recording/room quality vs that of MSS or CSS (I know they're different, but probably the most talked about libraries on this forum)
> 
> Can you guess which library this is?


Is that HS?


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

molemac said:


> After setting up a Streamdeck with Keyswitches for all the DSS and MSS arts I had my 1st play. Pizz is DSS and shorts and legatos and runs MSS.
> Fun to have so much at your fingertips but MSS still not quite doing it in the upper sustains for me. However its well worth it for everything else it does. I agree that its a great blending additional tool.


What is DSS?


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> Is that HS?


So this improvised chord sequence was actually the high strings of Abbey Road one, it doesn't have legato so the transitions were alittle odd.

& 
The fast run demo I posted was BBC Core violin 1 legato.


----------



## novaburst

Soundbed said:


> (Start by removing all Kontakt EQ and Reverb.)


This +1

Then as you would with any other library slap your favourite room on it, job done


----------



## molemac

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> What is DSS?


Vsl Dimension strings


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

molemac said:


> Vsl Dimension strings


That's what i thought. Although advertised as SDS Syncronized Dimension Strings body  .


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Baronvonheadless said:


> So this improvised chord sequence was actually the high strings of Abbey Road one, it doesn't have legato so the transitions were alittle odd.
> 
> &
> The fast run demo I posted was BBC Core violin 1 legato.


That was my second guess. Few library of this recording quality out there imo.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Fuck it.
Just pulled the trigger on MSS full package!


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Baronvonheadless said:


> Fuck it.
> Just pulled the trigger on MSS full package!


Ok so far the installation process is very annoying. I made sure my computer would not go to sleep when the display goes off and turned the display to 'never' in the energy saving settings...

& I came home after being out for 4 hours, legato downloaded no problem but the main package was stuck with 80 gb left to install and I hit pause and resume multiple times to no avail so I had to stop it and restart...wtf?
Starting over again, do I really have to sit at my computer for 3 hours while this installs?


----------



## paulwr

Baronvonheadless said:


> Ok so far the installation process is very annoying. I made sure my computer would not go to sleep when the display goes off and turned the display to 'never' in the energy saving settings...
> 
> & I came home after being out for 4 hours, legato downloaded no problem but the main package was stuck with 80 gb left to install and I hit pause and resume multiple times to no avail so I had to stop it and restart...wtf?
> Starting over again, do I really have to sit at my computer for 3 hours while this installs?


I didn't have to babysit the download. Its big, though, good luck.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

paulwr said:


> I didn't have to babysit the download. Its big, though, good luck.


Yeah really weird, not sure why that happened. Oh well. I'm a bottle of wine deep so a bit moody on it all hahahaha


----------



## Wunderhorn

Baronvonheadless said:


> Ok so far the installation process is very annoying. I made sure my computer would not go to sleep when the display goes off and turned the display to 'never' in the energy saving settings...
> 
> & I came home after being out for 4 hours, legato downloaded no problem but the main package was stuck with 80 gb left to install and I hit pause and resume multiple times to no avail so I had to stop it and restart...wtf?
> Starting over again, do I really have to sit at my computer for 3 hours while this installs?


That's why I always voice the general opinion that all these proprietary downloaders are stupid. If we just got normal download links which we can feed into a standard (and free) download manager (e.g. jdownloader) there wouldn't be all this cursing left and right, because those things have been developed over years to work and they do and have features that those proprietary things can only dream of.

Although, that said, I have to note that my MSS download went smooth even on a relatively slow internet connection.

Pour another glass! Life's too short even during a long download. It's gonna to be all right in the end.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Wunderhorn said:


> That's why I always voice the general opinion that all these proprietary downloaders are stupid. If we just got normal download links which we can feed into a standard (and free) download manager (e.g. jdownloader) there wouldn't be all this cursing left and right, because those things have been developed over years to work and they do and have features that those proprietary things can only dream of.
> 
> Although, that said, I have to note that my MSS download went smooth even on a relatively slow internet connection.
> 
> Pour another glass! Life's too short even during a long download. It's gonna to be all right in the end.


yup, all good tho! Got it, now figuring my way thru it without watching videos because I like to dive in dirty!

It's very different at first compared to any other string library I own. A lot of control options here!
I'll watch the videos later once I hit a wall haha


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Baronvonheadless said:


> yup, all good tho! Got it, now figuring my way thru it without watching videos because I like to dive in dirty!
> 
> It's very different at first compared to any other string library I own. A lot of control options here!
> I'll watch the videos later once I hit a wall haha (I've already watched a few before I bought it but I wasn't listening to all the control info, more so just the sounds)


----------



## Simon Ravn

Soundbed said:


> yes I made adjustments, these are not default patches. but nothing crazy imho, only simply stuff I do to most strings parts in my mixes.
> 
> actually i started with the result of my EWHO comparison video and made minor adjustments from there


Do you use the built in placement possibilities, or do you think it ruins audio quality too much? I am still undecided on that (having only the Extended Legato library for now).


----------



## novaburst

Wunderhorn said:


> Although, that said, I have to note that my MSS download went smooth even on a relatively slow internet connection.


I think the download was the trickiest part of the library, when I finally got through after the 4th attempt I awarded my self a medal, the download king


----------



## molemac

Simon Ravn said:


> Do you use the built in placement possibilities, or do you think it ruins audio quality too much? I am still undecided on that (having only the Extended Legato library for now).


WOuld like to know the answer to this too. I prefer a dryish sound and the positioning seems ok as is , so , probably best not to use the additional placement ?


----------



## Paul Jelfs

So how about the Expanded Legato as it stands - Is the Sordino convincing, especially in terms of legato.

As I understand it that is getting updated pretty soon. How much extra/value does the Expanded Legatos add to this ?


----------



## Eptesicus

BasariStudios said:


> How the people from Audio Bro are handling all this
> and their response and cooperation i would buy it
> even if it was the worst product on the Planet...
> (i bought it and it almost the Best product with little tweaks).



Yeh , the interaction on here and taking on board criticism/comments and rolling out relatively quick updates is really good to see.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Paul Jelfs said:


> So how about the Expanded Legato as it stands - Is the Sordino convincing, especially in terms of legato.
> 
> As I understand it that is getting updated pretty soon. How much extra/value does the Expanded Legatos add to this ?


personally, not so much. the sul pont are underwhelming at least, wish they kind of dug in more it's only audibly sul pont to my ears on certain RRs/notes, to the point where I feel like I need send those on a separate stem labeled sul pont so the orchestrator knows to write that.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

First Attempt to piece something together with it. Playing with the Viola and Violin ostinatos and Viola Rhythm shorts... I've only had a few hours to explore MSS but so far I'm loving it. Paired it here with Abbey Road Ones drums/sparkling winds and OT's Dagu Drum/Junkie XL horns!


----------



## samplin

sounds great! Im liking it too... ive found the less tinkering the better for me at the moment.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

samplin said:


> sounds great! Im liking it too... ive found the less tinkering the better for me at the moment.


Thank you! Yeah I've added a little extra of the internal reverb on the ostinatos so they don't cut out so short and man do they really flow/sound real....But mostly I haven't tweaked too too much


----------



## Soundbed

Simon Ravn said:


> Do you use the built in placement possibilities, or do you think it ruins audio quality too much? I am still undecided on that (having only the Extended Legato library for now).





molemac said:


> WOuld like to know the answer to this too. I prefer a dryish sound and the positioning seems ok as is , so , probably best not to use the additional placement ?


I played with them. But haven't used them "in a project" yet. tbh I wasn't in love with the convolution options. so I went back to standard panning and external reverb.



Paul Jelfs said:


> So how about the Expanded Legato as it stands - Is the Sordino convincing, especially in terms of legato.
> 
> As I understand it that is getting updated pretty soon. How much extra/value does the Expanded Legatos add to this ?





donnyluvd2bowl said:


> personally, not so much. the sul pont are underwhelming at least, wish they kind of dug in more it's only audibly sul pont to my ears on certain RRs/notes, to the point where I feel like I need send those on a separate stem labeled sul pont so the orchestrator knows to write that.


You know, I have confused myself a bit on this topic ... what I mean:

I thought at first they sounded "too similar".

*and then I played them again later and realized, ONCE AGAIN, this is a scoring library* and one that has a relatively _conservative_ approach.

So, having "all the options" but without going way out into left field on certain arts is sort of refreshing.

I mean, some of my sul pont from other libraries are fairly brittle and really ... uhm ... annoying. or at least, I'm like, "if I was writing for a scandi drama maybe I'll use these ... someday"

If you're writing for media you want to keep your audience interested without alienating them with annoying sounds.

I mean, for instance ... metal scrapes are great, but there's a craft to making metal scrapes sound "interesting" and "Scary" and "exciting" without being ... "annoying".

~

Similar with sul pont, it _can_ be a little nails on a chalkboard sound, but, AudioBro have presented a sul pont that is near the bridge without falling off a bridge.

So, I understand that they are not as extreme as some might prefer, but, it goes back to having a library that has so many options without having any of them be "unusable" because they are so "out there" and if I keep "using quotes" I'm going to "go crazy" ... it's been a long week.

:D

I realize this is a bit of a "hypothetical" reply about how the extended legatos could be used but I'd encourage people to think of the situations when the sul pont, sordino and sul tasto might be used ...

is it a subtle texture shift from arco that you want?

then they work!

are you going for a different mood or emotion with the same / similar notes or theme but staying in the same aesthetic?

then they work!

are you going for dramatic contrast that sound like a totally different world? ...then, maybe, you want to try MSS first but if they don't work then try a different library.


----------



## Casiquire

Paul Jelfs said:


> So how about the Expanded Legato as it stands - Is the Sordino convincing, especially in terms of legato.
> 
> As I understand it that is getting updated pretty soon. How much extra/value does the Expanded Legatos add to this ?


I only have the Expanded. It's more limited than the main library since it's legato/port/gliss only, but they sound lovely. The sul pont is far too mild for my liking, but the sordino and tasto sound great to my ears. Audiobro has a good track record with sordinos so these don't disappoint. The tasto is one dynamic but has plenty of movement. I think they're worth the discounted price especially given that they're one of only two options that offer those articulations with divisi


----------



## Duncan Krummel

I think with the Expanded Legato library it’s good to take into consideration what these real techniques actually sound like in average use. That is, I’m lead to believe AudioBro gave the performers instructions to play “sul tasto,” not “molto hyper mega sul tasto.” These bow techniques have a gradient, and I agree with what others have hinted at (maybe?) that most libraries actually take them TOO far.

In most libraries I’ve heard, sul ponts, if they even give you a non-trem option, are brittle to the point of being piercing. Sul pont can be _gorgeous_, but many libraries treat it as some kind of add on for horror. Same with sul tasto, which can be a gentle roll off of upper partials, all the way to a thick, dull muted tone. MSS is the only library I’ve heard that treats these articulations as gently as they do, and I think many have had their impressions of these techniques colored by the extremes that other developers push them.

I’d post an example comparing them, but I’m running into an issue that I can’t pin down with pops between each transition and stuck notes at the ends of phrases. Perhaps the update will fix this.


----------



## Soundbed

Duncan Krummel said:


> I think with the Expanded Legato library it’s good to take into consideration what these real techniques actually sound like in average use. That is, I’m lead to believe AudioBro gave the performers instructions to play “sul tasto,” not “molto hyper mega sul tasto.” These bow techniques have a gradient, and I agree with what others have hinted at (maybe?) that most libraries actually take them TOO far.
> 
> In most libraries I’ve heard, sul ponts, if they even give you a non-trem option, are brittle to the point of being piercing. Sul pont can be _gorgeous_, but many libraries treat it as some kind of add on for horror. Same with sul tasto, which can be a gentle roll off of upper partials, all the way to a thick, dull muted tone. MSS is the only library I’ve heard that treats these articulations as gently as they do, and I think many have had their impressions of these techniques colored by the extremes that other developers push them.
> 
> I’d post an example comparing them, but I’m running into an issue that I can’t pin down with pops between each transition and stuck notes at the ends of phrases. Perhaps the update will fix this.


Well put.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Ok, expanded my first idea into a fuller piece. Really putting those octave slides and scales to use at the end. Really fun stuff! Maybe a little over the top but you gotta go big before you can dial it back no?
I’ll have to practice more with mixing it in I think but it’s not too bad. (When u guys mention shutting off the kontakt reverbs and eq, you’re referring to the mixer grid within mss right?

Any constructive criticism on how these sounds gel together? Mixing bbc core, abbey road one, mss, junkie xl and I think that’s it. Put it thru my plugin alliance master desk and bettermake plugins on the stereo out. Cheers! 









The Long March To Freedom


An Original Composition by Michael Oliva




soundcloud.app.goo.gl


----------



## novaburst

Baronvonheadless said:


> Ok, expanded my first idea into a fuller piece. Really putting those octave slides and scales to use at the end. Really fun stuff! Maybe a little over the top but you gotta go big before you can dial it back no?
> I’ll have to practice more with mixing it in I think but it’s not too bad. (When u guys mention shutting off the kontakt reverbs and eq, you’re referring to the mixer grid within mss right?
> 
> Any constructive criticism on how these sounds gel together? Mixing bbc core, abbey road one, mss, junkie xl and I think that’s it. Put it thru my plugin alliance master desk and bettermake plugins on the stereo out. Cheers!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Long March To Freedom
> 
> 
> An Original Composition by Michael Oliva
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soundcloud.app.goo.gl


Very creative sound you have i would have perhaps liked to to hear a more manual approach with the strings or more dominant strings but that just in view of the library it self I feel the library has a lot to say,


----------



## Baronvonheadless

novaburst said:


> Very creative sound you have i would have perhaps liked to to hear a more manual approach with the strings or more dominant strings but that just in view of the library it self I feel the library has a lot to say,


Thank u very much! Yeah def especially the second half I was just experimenting with the ostinatos/scale runs/rhythm sequencer haha. Generally I’ve been so used to playing everything out one at a time with bbc core so I was practicing with the MSS automated stuff more here. I’m sure in the future I’d use them more sparingly or creatively and not so robotically. It’s hard not to throw big horns over all my stuff I love that power, I’ll try to experiment with the MSS legatos now I think and more sweeping string lines! Thanks for your words and feedback🙏🏼


----------



## Zedcars

Soundbed said:


> I'm not 100% certain, but I think Soothe2 is what helps me (personally) with what you're calling the metallic sound. I bought it originally for use with LASS (which I mentioned before, not trying to repeat myself).
> 
> Again I know it pains people who dish out a lot for a library to then feel conflicted, paying for expensive magic tools to help mix those libraries. But I chalk it up to learning some mixing tricks from top mixers and getting the tools they are using to make their jobs quicker and adding them to my studio. In other words I don't *always* expect to pay for libraries that were recorded / mixed by Simon Rhodes or Shawn Murphy or Dennis Sands.
> 
> About the playing specifically, I think MSS works best as the sections come together and brass and other instrument groups start getting added. There are some articulations and sections that sound great isolated but I agree some exposed individual parts don't have the "wow" factor, until you start building things up. Every time I've gotten more parts added and brass in there things really start springing to life, and MSS starts living up to its name as a scoring tool.


If you have time, please could you give me a rough idea of how you are using Soothe2 with MMS? Do you apply a preset and tweak it? Is it on all the sections together, or different settings per section or patch? I’m not too great with mixing and sometimes end up making things worse. Even just a screenshot would help point me in the right direction.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Alright was up all night, couldn't sleep.
Here I paired the Violin ensemble and the Cello ensemble, bass strings on one brief part. Layering a few variety of the shorts. All strings here are MSS mixed with BBC core timpani and flute/piccolos, sonore French horn and I think that's it...not sure, haven't slept.
Once again played with the Ostinato and Scales briefly this time!


I think the strings are sounding good, they definitely need to be tweaked and I have to be careful how I master them compared to my other string libraries...I noticed they can be awfully hot/sharp if I'm not careful....


----------



## Evans

Baronvonheadless said:


> I noticed they can be awfully hot/sharp if I'm not careful


I feel like this same caution could be also expressed for Modern Scoring Brass, once you start piling up the tracks.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Evans said:


> I feel like this same caution could be also expressed for Modern Scoring Brass, once you start piling up the tracks.


^^How do those sound above to you? I'm getting serious ear fatigue haha


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Any MSS users have trouble with Learn CC function? I'm trying to change some stuff around and make some custom switches. For Instance I'm trying to route the up/down slider to a specific knob but for some reason it just keeps assigning it to my mod wheel/dynamic controller regardless of which knob I turn when I select learn CC...
I'm using Logic 
Any help would be great!


----------



## Dopplereffect

Baronvonheadless said:


> Any MSS users have trouble with Learn CC function? I'm trying to change some stuff around and make some custom switches. For Instance I'm trying to route the up/down slider to a specific knob but for some reason it just keeps assigning it to my mod wheel/dynamic controller regardless of which knob I turn when I select learn CC...
> I'm using Logic
> Any help would be great!


I'm not at my music PC right now and I'm also not using logic, but sometimes I assign CC's as following (even when I don't have a keyboard at hand or a keyboard without modwheel).:
- I manually write a complete up and down curve (0 to 127 and back to 0) on the CC lane I wish to assign something to.
- I put the cursor right in front of this curve
- I go to the GUI, assign the controller lane, push MIDI learn and then just play (the cursor then goes over the CC curve and the learning is being done)

Not sure if this helps you, though...


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Dopplereffect said:


> I'm not at my music PC right now and I'm also not using logic, but sometimes I assign CC's as following (even when I don't have a keyboard at hand or a keyboard without modwheel).:
> - I manually write a complete up and down curve (0 to 127 and back to 0) on the CC lane I wish to assign something to.
> - I put the cursor right in front of this curve
> - I go to the GUI, assign the controller lane, push MIDI learn and then just play (the cursor then goes over the CC curve and the learning is being done)
> 
> Not sure if this helps you, though...


I'm still pretty new to midi, haha I'm not quite sure I follow that. (teaching myself)

However, I just used latch automation and moved the bloom/normal/bow slider with my mouse and it reads that, so that's one way to do it. However the bloom amount knob does not seem to read by using latch automation in the same way. weird!


----------



## Dopplereffect

Baronvonheadless said:


> I'm still pretty new to midi, haha I'm not quite sure I follow that. (teaching myself)
> 
> However, I just used latch automation and moved the bloom/normal/bow slider with my mouse and it reads that, so that's one way to do it. However the bloom amount knob does not seem to read by using latch automation in the same way. weird!


Yeah, I'm also not a native English speaker so I'm probably not saying it right neither... (Sorry!)

Is there a specific reason why you want the Bloom (or the up/down) function to be assigned to something else than CC4 (which is the default - if I remember that correctly)?

EDIT: And I'm defenitely no MIDI wizard neither


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Dopplereffect said:


> Yeah, I'm also not a native English speaker so I'm probably not saying it right neither... (Sorry!)
> 
> Is there a specific reason why you want the Bloom (or the up/down) function to be assigned to something else than CC4 (which is the default - if I remember that correctly)?
> 
> EDIT: And I'm defenitely no MIDI wizard neither


Oh no worries! Well I use an m audio keystation for my main controller but its limited with knobs so I also use an Akai mpk225 and also touchosc app thru my iPhone for sliders...so I really just can't seem to find them on my controller and wanted to have it somewhere I'd remember. Maybe there's another way to go about this that I'm not sure of yet?


----------



## Dopplereffect

Baronvonheadless said:


> Oh no worries! Well I use an m audio keystation for my main controller but its limited with knobs so I also use an Akai mpk225 and also touchosc app thru my iPhone for sliders...so I really just can't seem to find them on my controller and wanted to have it somewhere I'd remember. Maybe there's another way to go about this that I'm not sure of yet?


I have no decent experience with external controllers/sliders etc... but my guess is that the knobs/sliders in question should be made to send out data to the specific CC that you want them to.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Dopplereffect said:


> I have no decent experience with external controllers/sliders etc... but my guess is that the knobs/sliders in question should be made to send out data to the specific CC that you want them to.


So this is very bizarre but now it's working just fine with TouchOSC? Weird haha


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Duncan Krummel said:


> I think with the Expanded Legato library it’s good to take into consideration what these real techniques actually sound like in average use.... I think many have had their impressions of these techniques colored by the extremes that other developers push them.


respectfully, no, my impression of this technique is colored by writing sul pont on a piece of paper and handing it to live players to record. generally-- at least in hollywood-- when you write sul pont, they're gonna play it audibly by default unless given a note/context not to do so. 

i hear what you're saying, and subtlety can be nice, but in the context of scoring/underscore (the name of the library) a pretty good rule of thumb is, if you can't really hear it don't write it. recording is expensive and trying to nail something subtle that won't be hear is a waste of time (with bowings or mutes or anything like that). So in this context where it's a subtle difference in the sound of the two patches, it's nice to have since you don't have to stop and say "no no just a little sul pont", but kind of not what I would consider useful for an effect that will be mixed down under dialog in most cases. This is probably why most libraries aimed at scoring may "take it too far" as you put it.


----------



## Wunderhorn

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> i hear what you're saying, and subtlety can be nice, but in the context of scoring/underscore (the name of the library) a pretty good rule of thumb is, if you can't really hear it don't write it.


My take on this is that when creating mockups it is helpful when the sounds of libraries is distinguishable. When _sul pont_ is too subtle, the effect tends to disappear quickly. If it is too strong you can always layer it or tame it with other methods.

I did not go for the extension exactly for the reason that it does not sound distinguished enough and I have other libraries' versions of that which cover my needs for the time being (I also have the LASS sordino legatos.). The other reason is that if I pay extra for _sul pont_ etc I would want some short articulations that match it. But they don't exist neither in the main library nor the extension. (Even this is not really a complaint, because I am delighted with the plethora of material in the main library.)

And, I may add, there is classical concert music out there that makes most library articulations and dynamic layers sound completely toothless. No, I don't think that sample developers go too much to the extremes. I think they are not doing it enough! Hardly anyone (does actually anyone?) have true _ppp_ layers. Then there are _fff_ possible at a level of brutality that I have not heard in sample libraries. But I did hear it with real recordings.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> respectfully, no, my impression of this technique is colored by writing sul pont on a piece of paper and handing it to live players to record. generally-- at least in hollywood-- when you write sul pont, they're gonna play it audibly by default unless given a note/context not to do so.
> 
> i hear what you're saying, and subtlety can be nice, but in the context of scoring/underscore (the name of the library) a pretty good rule of thumb is, if you can't really hear it don't write it. recording is expensive and trying to nail something subtle that won't be hear is a waste of time (with bowings or mutes or anything like that). So in this context where it's a subtle difference in the sound of the two patches, it's nice to have since you don't have to stop and say "no no just a little sul pont", but kind of not what I would consider useful for an effect that will be mixed down under dialog in most cases. This is probably why most libraries aimed at scoring may "take it too far" as you put it.


I think, then, that perhaps the subtlety is simply less so to my ears. I can hear a very audible difference between each technique, which - by the way - can be exaggerated with the brightness dial if you'd like more or less. Of course, I also hear what you're saying, and if something simply isn't noticeable, it may not be meaningful (although... I'd also argue against this from a creative and pedagogical perspective).

Maybe this is just me, but my primary background is concert music, and I've lost track of the number of times I've had to dial back or forth the amount of sul pont . But I also don't consider these techniques effects in the way many libraries seem to treat them. It's a coloristic choice, imo. Again, though, I hear a _very_ clear difference between each technique as MSS presents them, and appreciate that they were as reserved with it as they were.


----------



## Casiquire

I definitely hear the difference too. Especially with the sordino and sul tasto. I don't really get the comments that the expanded library's sonic differences are inaudible.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Casiquire said:


> I definitely hear the difference too. Especially with the sordino and sul tasto. I don't really get the comments that the expanded library's sonic differences are inaudible.


?

you literally just wrote "The sul pont is far too mild for my liking"


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

I wonder if these tehnique can be accentuated with EQ and how much?


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Duncan Krummel said:


> Of course, I also hear what you're saying, and if something simply isn't noticeable, it may not be meaningful (although... I'd also argue against this from a creative and pedagogical perspective).


for sure, but creative in what sense? in film scoring it's just a matter of practicality, if you want an effect to be heard you gotta make it heard. from a purely musical standpoint and in the context of concert music (as you mention is your background) yeah absolutely.



Duncan Krummel said:


> Maybe this is just me, but my primary background is concert music, and I've lost track of the number of times I've had to dial back or forth the amount of sul pont . But I also don't consider these techniques effects in the way many libraries seem to treat them. It's a coloristic choice, imo. Again, though, I hear a _very_ clear difference between each technique as MSS presents them, and appreciate that they were as reserved with it as they were.


effect* seems subjective, but no we're in agreement it is a color, but i don't find it audible enough here to be useful. I'm just saying that I tried it and know in the back of my mind that I should make a note to the orchestrator that this is meant to be sul pont. not a big deal but would like it to be more obvious. at least the option. if this were meant to be the final product I would need to grab a different library, and since someone was asking about how useful it is, I would just contextualize it then as a very subtle sul pont, and not the type one expects in a dramatic context.

____________
edited for typo


----------



## Duncan Krummel

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> for sure, but creative in what sense? in film scoring it's just a matter of practicality, if you want an effect to be heard you gotta make it heard. from a purely musical standpoint and in the context of concert music (as you mention is your background) yeah absolutely.


Much of the time, sure, but I have been in many situations where practicality played second fiddle to artistry. I'd much rather the latter in any case (I'm not sure anyone would disagree, but still felt I should mention it).



donnyluvd2bowl said:


> effect* seems subjective, but no we're in agreement it is a color, but i don't find it audible enough here to be useful. I'm just saying that I tried it and know in the back of my mind that I should make a note to the orchestrator that this is meant to be sul pont. not a big deal but would like it to be more obvious. at least the option. if this were meant to be the final product I would need to grab a different library, and since someone was asking about how useful it is, I would just contextualize it then as a very subtle sul pont, and not the type one expects in a dramatic context.


Totally subjective, as is the effectiveness of these articulations in use as they are presented here. So, I 100% don't disagree with your own self-assessment on the usability of these recordings. I just find, for my own use case, that they are a welcome breath of fresh, non-molto air. Much more useable than other libraries I own, especially the sul ponts.


----------



## Casiquire

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> ?
> 
> you literally just wrote "The sul pont is far too mild for my liking"


Sure. But still audible. Not everything is black and white


----------



## Noc

No posts in almost 36 hours? Getting lonely in here. D:

@dxmachina If you don’t mind me being the hundredth person to ask you this, can you give us a rough ETA on the Expanded Legato 1.1 update?


----------



## dxmachina

@Noc Taking a little longer than expected (as these things always seem to ). It's a _silly_ (in the best way possible) amount of legato in the Expanded library: Leg, Port, Gliss, Norm, Bloom, Bowed, Sord, SulT, Sul P -- all * 12 sections/soloists. We're closing in on it, but I think it's looking more like next week at this point.


----------



## Noc

dxmachina said:


> @Noc Taking a little longer than expected (as these things always seem to ). It's a _silly_ (in the best way possible) amount of legato in the Expanded library: Leg, Port, Gliss, Norm, Bloom, Bowed, Sord, SulT, Sul P -- all * 12 sections/soloists. We're closing in on it, but I think it's looking more like next week at this point.


Quite all right! Delays are fine, it means there’s no rushing, which is always good.


----------



## Soundbed

Zedcars said:


> If you have time, please could you give me a rough idea of how you are using Soothe2 with MMS? Do you apply a preset and tweak it? Is it on all the sections together, or different settings per section or patch? I’m not too great with mixing and sometimes end up making things worse. Even just a screenshot would help point me in the right direction.


mostly the cellos. I remove the body resonance, starting with the 'contain the low orchestra' preset and speed up the attack and release, narrow the frequency bands, and extend it further down in frequency (described by my memory). click the delta button to hear what your removing ... it sounds sort of like removing "rubber". i sometimes switch to the more aggressive mode and dial it forward or back depending how much "thinner" i want the cellos, because they have a lot of resonant "body" without a little dynamic eq. this extreme editing is not required but i will make a video someday with my ideas


----------



## Soundbed

finally uploaded my MSS 1.1 walkthrough video ... includes at least one new or two demo music snippets I don't think I'd shared yet...

0:00 Welcome Ostinatos w/CSW 
0:44 NEW Legato: Norm & Bloom 
3:07 Clarification 
3:22 NEW Offset Control 
4:26 NEW User Editable Legato Tables 
5:01 Gliss & Port Caveats 
6:11 Bloom in Detail (+VSL Comment) 
7:49 NEW Bowed +tips (+Con Moto Demos) 
11:01 NEW Independent Dynamics per note 
11:14 Rebows / Repeat Notes 
12:04 NEW Molto Vibrato & Espressivo 
14:22 NEW Ostinatos 
16:15 NEW Sustain Pedal Legato 
16:41 NEW S1 Sound Variations 
17:12 Snapshots 
17:36 Longer Bloom Music Demo 
20:10 Aleatoric Outro


----------



## Zedcars

Soundbed said:


> mostly the cellos. I remove the body resonance, starting with the 'contain the low orchestra' preset and speed up the attack and release, narrow the frequency bands, and extend it further down in frequency (described by my memory). click the delta button to hear what your removing ... it sounds sort of like removing "rubber". i sometimes switch to the more aggressive mode and dial it forward or back depending how much "thinner" i want the cellos, because they have a lot of resonant "body" without a little dynamic eq. this extreme editing is not required but i will make a video someday with my ideas


Thanks so much. I will definitely give it a go. I’ll also check out your video above when time allows. You’re a great asset to this community and I think many people appreciate what you do!


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> finally uploaded my MSS 1.1 walkthrough video ... includes at least one new or two demo music snippets I don't think I'd shared yet...
> 
> 0:00 Welcome Ostinatos w/CSW
> 0:44 NEW Legato: Norm & Bloom
> 3:07 Clarification
> 3:22 NEW Offset Control
> 4:26 NEW User Editable Legato Tables
> 5:01 Gliss & Port Caveats
> 6:11 Bloom in Detail (+VSL Comment)
> 7:49 NEW Bowed +tips (+Con Moto Demos)
> 11:01 NEW Independent Dynamics per note
> 11:14 Rebows / Repeat Notes
> 12:04 NEW Molto Vibrato & Espressivo
> 14:22 NEW Ostinatos
> 16:15 NEW Sustain Pedal Legato
> 16:41 NEW S1 Sound Variations
> 17:12 Snapshots
> 17:36 Longer Bloom Music Demo
> 20:10 Aleatoric Outro



Never mind MSS , how great do you sound?


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> finally uploaded my MSS 1.1 walkthrough video ... includes at least one new or two demo music snippets I don't think I'd shared yet...
> 
> 0:00 Welcome Ostinatos w/CSW
> 0:44 NEW Legato: Norm & Bloom
> 3:07 Clarification
> 3:22 NEW Offset Control
> 4:26 NEW User Editable Legato Tables
> 5:01 Gliss & Port Caveats
> 6:11 Bloom in Detail (+VSL Comment)
> 7:49 NEW Bowed +tips (+Con Moto Demos)
> 11:01 NEW Independent Dynamics per note
> 11:14 Rebows / Repeat Notes
> 12:04 NEW Molto Vibrato & Espressivo
> 14:22 NEW Ostinatos
> 16:15 NEW Sustain Pedal Legato
> 16:41 NEW S1 Sound Variations
> 17:12 Snapshots
> 17:36 Longer Bloom Music Demo
> 20:10 Aleatoric Outro



Thanks for the video. Quick question, do you know why I don't have the wrench to get to the edit menu the way you do? Mine looks more like a gear and when I click on it I get this.


----------



## Evans

Baronvonheadless said:


> Thanks for the video. Quick question, do you know why I don't have the wrench to get to the edit menu the way you do? Mine looks more like a gear and when I click on it I get this.


1. You may wish to remove that screenshot with your serial number.

2. Are you using Kontakt Player, or Kontakt full? I don't believe the Player edition has the wrench.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Evans said:


> 1. You may wish to remove that screenshot with your serial number.
> 
> 2. Are you using Kontakt Player, or Kontakt full? I don't believe the Player edition has the wrench.


Done, thank you! Yes Kontakt player, I guess that's why.


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> finally uploaded my MSS 1.1 walkthrough video ... includes at least one new or two demo music snippets I don't think I'd shared yet...
> 
> 0:00 Welcome Ostinatos w/CSW
> 0:44 NEW Legato: Norm & Bloom
> 3:07 Clarification
> 3:22 NEW Offset Control
> 4:26 NEW User Editable Legato Tables
> 5:01 Gliss & Port Caveats
> 6:11 Bloom in Detail (+VSL Comment)
> 7:49 NEW Bowed +tips (+Con Moto Demos)
> 11:01 NEW Independent Dynamics per note
> 11:14 Rebows / Repeat Notes
> 12:04 NEW Molto Vibrato & Espressivo
> 14:22 NEW Ostinatos
> 16:15 NEW Sustain Pedal Legato
> 16:41 NEW S1 Sound Variations
> 17:12 Snapshots
> 17:36 Longer Bloom Music Demo
> 20:10 Aleatoric Outro



Can you post a link to your MSS ensemble builder video , I cant find it . Thanks


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> Can you post a link to your MSS ensemble builder video , I cant find it . Thanks


Click this timestamp for the link: 1:12 - Ensemble Builder & Auto Divisi


Zedcars said:


> Thanks so much. I will definitely give it a go. I’ll also check out your video above when time allows. You’re a great asset to this community and I think many people appreciate what you do!


thank you!

here's some notes I had on Soothe2 from a while back when it was fresh in my mind ...

For Soothe2, on the cellos, I start with "Contain the low mid orchestra" and speed things up to attack 2.5 or so, release maybe 5.3 or so, switch to Hard from Soft, depth to taste. (Sharpness around 3.8? Selectivity around 3.6? Not as confident in these right now, I'm only listening to cellos.) I also mess with band 1 Q and position ... it'll be easier with a short video. [at this point i stopped typing but haven't made the video yet]

What these settings do for MSS cellos is remove a lot of "rubbery low room boom" thickness. You can hear the difference using the Delta switch. A cut on a low shelf will do similar things but these speed settings also emphasize the vibrato a bit (if you want that). While thinning out the cellos a bit to leave space for the basses in the mix.


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> Never mind MSS , how great do you sound?


lolol ... thank you! I've been getting a lot of practice, making videos for VST Buzz lately:


----------



## molemac

Soundbed said:


> lolol ... thank you! I've been getting a lot of practice, making videos for VST Buzz lately:



I knew you had some magic going on , you were practically in my studio.

And you 've just made me spend more money . I presume it's good for normalizing tracks as well?


----------



## novaburst

Soundbed said:


> on the cellos, I start with "Contain the low mid orchestra"


Since the update I have been addicted to the cellos not sure what vodoo AB used but they are sounding so thick and warm, 

I do turn all automatic off and not using any processor apart from my favourite verb, 
Also not using using device 

All through the range they are sounding so good,


----------



## Soundbed

molemac said:


> I knew you had some magic going on , you were practically in my studio.
> 
> And you 've just made me spend more money . I presume it's good for normalizing tracks as well?


Bute is indeed a loudness normalizer


----------



## BasariStudios

Lets bring this back up.


----------



## Casiquire

I'd really like to see and hear more examples after the update.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

New video by somebody - though MSS sounds rather "blurred" in this one. I wonder if that has to do with programming (maybe not using a fast enough transition speed) or potentially mic mixes. It's the kind of piece that I think something like VSL would excel at.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

ALittleNightMusic said:


> New video by somebody - though MSS sounds rather "blurred" in this one. I wonder if that has to do with programming (maybe not using a fast enough transition speed) or potentially mic mixes. It's the kind of piece that I think something like VSL would excel at.



That’s also v1.0, so I imagine the overall programming would become less blurry in the transitions with v1.1 (listening on my phone, but that’s what jumps out to me as the primary culprit).



Casiquire said:


> I'd really like to see and hear more examples after the update.


I’m hoping to work on a more extended demo once the expanded library update is out. I will say, after a brief test with the shorts comparing MSS with CSS and HWS (non opus), MSS absolutely dominates when it comes to the big, bright, widescreen sound. It also layers extremely well with HWS. MSB also layers well with CSB and HWB. I only mention that since I’d like to include MSB with MSS in the demo to see how they work together. Nice to have options.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Duncan Krummel said:


> That’s also v1.0, so I imagine the overall programming would become less blurry in the transitions with v1.1 (listening on my phone, but that’s what jumps out to me as the primary culprit).


Wasn't the transition speed in 1.0 the fastest setting in 1.1 though?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Wasn't the transition speed in 1.0 the fastest setting in 1.1 though?


I’m not sure it’s exactly that clean cut; I think the legato was adjusted for all speeds for 1.1. I’m also not convinced that the fastest transition speed would be the most useful for the video’s music. I sometimes find that a slower, more pronounced transition can work better for moderately quick lines.


----------



## Soundbed

This popped up in my feed but I have not watched it.


----------



## RonV

I think he demonstrates that if nothing else, MSS is a great utility for runs and ostinati. The scale function can even play scales in octaves, thirds, fifths, triads, etc., if that serves a use for you. I don't know other tools that do that, but certainly haven't tried them all. Seems like a lot of flexibility, IF you are reasonably happy with the sound, of course.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

This library is so huge, I discovered the intuition patches just now. Just messing with them for the first time! 

I'm trying to figure out the difference between the legato in the regular patches vs the expanded legato patches? There is no Arco in expanded and they sound a bit different. I bought in after the update so I'm still figuring this all out.

It's pretty overwhelming, especially someone who's only 5 months deep into string sampling/orchestrating!

Still very impressed.

MSS users, what are your favorite patches so far?

Here's a little string idea using:

Violins 1 & 2, Solo Violin, Violas, Celli, Two basses (one on harmonics, the other Sul Tasto), Two Viola Ostinatos and the Intuition Violin A.


----------



## samplin

Here's my first outing with MSS. Im using the various competition videos to give some focus.... Its only the first minute and last 30 seconds or so with MSS but I like how it works in this context.


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> This library is so huge, I discovered the intuition patches just now. Just messing with them for the first time!
> 
> I'm trying to figure out the difference between the legato in the regular patches vs the expanded legato patches? There is no Arco in expanded and they sound a bit different.


The Expanded Legato has real sampled bowing techniques. E.g., near the bridge or near the fingerboard or with a mute (sul pont, sul tasto and con sordino respectively).

The recorded Arco in the "Main" package is the only place Arco exists.

The sul tasto/pont and sordino options under Arco in the "Main" patches [EDIT —] do not have legato.

So, buying the expanded legao gives you the real recorded legato versions whereas non-legato versions are in the "Main" patches.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> The Expanded Legato has real sampled bowing techniques. E.g., near the bridge or near the fingerboard or with a mute (sul pont, sul tasto and con sordino respectively).
> 
> The recorded Arco in the "Main" package is the only place Arco exists.
> 
> The sul tasto/pont and sordino options under Arco in the "Main" patches are EQ or otherwise simulated, not recorded, IIRC.
> 
> So, buying the expanded legao gives you the real recorded versions whereas the "simulated" versions are in the "Main" patches.


Oh wow ok thank you!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Soundbed said:


> The sul tasto/pont and sordino options under Arco in the "Main" patches are EQ or otherwise simulated, not recorded, IIRC.
> 
> So, buying the expanded legao gives you the real recorded versions whereas the "simulated" versions are in the "Main" patches.


Just a correction, but the Main patches are also real recordings, just without legato! The only simulated bowing techniques are in the intuition patches.


----------



## paulwr

After a couple of weeks using MSS for all strings duties across multiple styles of music including si-fi, typical full orchestral, funk, and even an older Motown vibe, I am finding this to be the most versatile string library I have by far. I'm impressed, VERY impressed. I don't find myself even thinking of reaching for another library at this point even though I do have some kinks to work out, and much more studying to do of especially the Ostinato functions and the runs. The manual runs with this are outstanding anyway. 

Now that I have started on my full template that incorporates a lot of connections with my controller, I have found a quirk: *(note: solved* by Audiobro, just save the patch in the upper right-ish corner, and can overwrite default in the switcher, too) My custom velocity settings for controlling gliss, portamento, etc... get wiped out if I accidentally trigger the switcher. I need to find the best ways to keep full functionality and still protect certain settings. I had my default setting of divisi and humanization stuff change also. 

However, every bit of time I put into learning this deep tool feels like a valuable investment. Well done, Audiobro, and keep the updates and future features coming!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

paulwr said:


> After a couple of weeks using MSS for all strings duties across multiple styles of music including si-fi, typical full orchestral, funk, and even an older Motown vibe, I am finding this to be the most versatile string library I have by far. I'm impressed, VERY impressed. I don't find myself even thinking of reaching for another library at this point even though I do have some kinks to work out, and much more studying to do of especially the Ostinato functions and the runs. The manual runs with this are outstanding anyway.
> 
> Now that I have started on my full template that incorporates a lot of connections with my controller, I have found a quirk: My custom velocity settings for controlling gliss, portamento, etc... get wiped out if I accidentally trigger the switcher. I need to find the best ways to keep full functionality and still protect certain settings. I had my default setting of divisi and humanization stuff change also.
> 
> However, every bit of time I put into learning this deep tool feels like a valuable investment. Well done, Audiobro, and keep the updates and future features coming!


Would love to hear some of your music utilizing it if possible!


----------



## Wunderhorn

paulwr said:


> Now that I have started on my full template that incorporates a lot of connections with my controller, I have found a quirk: My custom velocity settings for controlling gliss, portamento, etc... get wiped out if I accidentally trigger the switcher. I need to find the best ways to keep full functionality and still protect certain settings. I had my default setting of divisi and humanization stuff change also.


Interesting, I found the same issues.
Some settings from the performance window don't always get saved with the custom setting (via upper right corner in the GUI). Especially the break points for velocity based slider movement.
Saving any custom CC seems a shot in the dark and the next time I open up the project (or if I activate a key switch that touches an articulation that has custom CCs) the settings are screwed (at least sometimes, there is no consistency to it that I can see). So far the only "safe" usage is to use the big master articulation set (Logic) and avoid CC wherever possible.

Does anybody else have this observation?


----------



## Soundbed

Duncan Krummel said:


> Just a correction, but the Main patches are also real recordings, just without legato! The only simulated bowing techniques are in the intuition patches.


I was wondering why they sounded so good, I’ll edit my post!


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> Oh wow ok thank you!


I was wrong and edited my post with the correction.


----------



## Soundbed

paulwr said:


> [...] My custom velocity settings for controlling gliss, portamento, etc... get wiped out if I accidentally trigger the switcher. I need to find the best ways to keep full functionality and still protect certain settings. I had my default setting of divisi and humanization stuff change also.





Wunderhorn said:


> Interesting, I found the same issues.
> Some settings from the performance window don't always get saved with the custom setting (via upper right corner in the GUI). Especially the break points for velocity based slider movement.
> Saving any custom CC seems a shot in the dark and the next time I open up the project (or if I activate a key switch that touches an articulation that has custom CCs) the settings are screwed (at least sometimes, there is no consistency to it that I can see). So far the only "safe" usage is to use the big master articulation set (Logic) and avoid CC wherever possible.


@dxmachina might want to check these reports. I have not tested yet myself.


----------



## dxmachina

@paulwr @Wunderhorn

_Definitely_ shoot me an email or PM if you're having an issue. We're about to push an update so if there is something to fix it would get in pretty quick.

I just tried to save two presets with different velocity ranges for both the Attack and Transition sliders and they recalled as expected when loading the presets. I also tried a restart and reload and the values still looked ok. So I'm wondering if I'm missing a step. The upper-right menu presets should store the values in _every_ single preset you save. That said, if you use the "Tile" switcher (which is the default), you don't even have to bother to save a preset - just set these values up where you want them once and they won't be touched.

Regarding custom MIDI CCs, are you talking about using Kontakt MIDI automation (right click assigning or dragging-dropping from the MIDI automation pane)? Or the custom CC menus that are in a few places in our interface? The former is not something that is scripted or controlled by third party devs. The latter are not stored in the presets but _should_ persist in the instrument. If not, there's a bug.

Since there are a bunch of menus at play, it might also be worth mentioning that Kontakt UIs are not always fully functional if the audio engine gets turned off. If Logic is (temporarily) disabling the plugin and the plugin window is open it's possible that it could cause such an issue. If you play a quick note through it the engine will be woken back up. This is not ideal but the way Kontakt has always worked. Similar issues happen when trying to set up instruments in Vienna Ensemble Server before the host is connected.

In any case - definitely let us know! We haven't had a report of this yet and would be eager to fix any such things.


----------



## paulwr

dxmachina said:


> I just tried to save two presets with different velocity ranges for both the Attack and Transition sliders and they recalled as expected when loading the presets.


I will look more closely today, I suspected it was just me not fully understanding MSS yet. So... I would save presets to the list on the gui in the upper right drop down list, then I can use them in the switcher too, correct? I was pretty sure what happened is there are some key switches setup out of the box, and I unknowingly triggered some.... sound like a probability to you?

LASS has been my strings workhorse for over ten years and I do have a lot of other libraries. I think you guys created another decade strings workhorse. I'm sure LASS will still see duties for more intimate divisi writing and I'm sure even more. I heard LASS itself will be getting a big update/upgrade and is coming soon.... true? 

Thanks for responding, your customer support is always appreciated and you are known for it.


----------



## paulwr

dxmachina said:


> Regarding custom MIDI CCs, are you talking about using Kontakt MIDI automation (right click assigning or dragging-dropping from the MIDI automation pane)? Or the custom CC menus that are in a few places in our interface? The former is not something that is scripted or controlled by third party devs. The latter are not stored in the presets but _should_ persist in the instrument. If not, there's a bug.


So far I have only been right click/assigning cc automation to my controller since it is so handy.


----------



## dxmachina

@paulwr Thanks for the kind words.



> So... I would save presets to the list on the gui in the upper right drop down list, then I can use them in the switcher too, correct? I was pretty sure what happened is there are some key switches setup out of the box, and I unknowingly triggered some.... sound like a probability to you?


That's possible. The switcher banks use "Tiles" as the default which is just our huge list of possible key switches. If you change the Switcher to "Preset" mode (or use another switcher bank in addition to our defaults) you can then keyswitch your custom settings that are saved in the menu. There are some potential conflicts to be aware of which might be a cause for confusion.

Our "Tile" modes begin with the most basic articulation tiles (meaning just changing the active articulation and nothing else). This would not disturb your settings for something like velocity splits. However, under the main "Tiles" we have the more detailed tiles. So take something like "Legato: Bloom." In that case we DO have to change to the bloom setting and are taking the instrument out of velocity-split mode to do so. But presumably if you want to use the velocity splits you would want to change to just "Legato" and let the velocity do the rest.

Loading an Articulation Preset (as opposed to the built in tiles) will restore your settings just as you saved them, and as I mentioned they can work in addition to the preset tile system if you like. 



> So far I have only been right click/assigning cc automation to my controller since it is so handy.


This is just the built-in Kontakt automation system which we have no control over. Still if something is going wrong let us know and we can try to repro and pass on to NI.


----------



## paulwr

dxmachina said:


> That's possible. The switcher banks use "Tiles" as the default which is just our huge list of possible key switches. If you change the Switcher to "Preset" mode (or use another switcher bank in addition to our defaults) you can then keyswitch your custom settings that are saved in the menu


I don't see a way to save, say, a Tile Switcher setup so that I can easily apply to other strings without having to make the same one over and over. Am I missing something?


----------



## dxmachina

paulwr said:


> I don't see a way to save, say, a Tile Switcher setup so that I can easily apply to other strings without having to make the same one over and over. Am I missing something?


Open the Full Switcher editor, then hit the "cog" at the top next to the words "Switcher Editor." Choose "Save as..." - then on another patch use the same menu and choose "Load default..."

Basically a copy-paste between patches.


----------



## Wunderhorn

dxmachina said:


> Open the Full Switcher editor, then hit the "cog" at the top next to the words "Switcher Editor." Choose "Save as..." - then on another patch use the same menu and choose "Load default..."
> 
> Basically a copy-paste between patches.


I would really appreciate an in-depth tutorial video or a more elaborate, scenario-driven (to achieve this, i do this) section in the manual about the switcher editor. I have not quite yet understood how to use it and how it is linked to the articulation sets (Logic).
So far I am using the provided articulation set and DAW integration snapshot and trying to add designated CCs via MIDI learn on practically everything that does not have already a keyswitch - though as I have outlined in my PM this is not reliably successful.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Hey guys - the Main MSS library is awesome, its going to take some time to fully digest. 

I only went with the Main MSS, as there is a lot less info about the Expanded legato patches, ESPECIALLY since the 1.1 update that changed and improved legato. 

I do realise that is because 1.1 Expanded legato has not been official released yet - Just eager to see how it fairs as I am conscious of the intro pricing, which has already been on probably 6 weeks or more. 

Is anyone on here planning to do a video on ExL 1.1 when it lands ?  

Cheers 

PJ


----------



## Noeticus

FireGS said:


> I think there's a mixing issue happening here. I just dragged the audio from the Legato video into a DAW to check out the phase correlation.
> 
> This is a part of the opening piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is from the first example of Violins:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, by comparison, the solo violin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice a whole lot less phase? Also notice how that sounds much drier than the section? And now solo violin + ensemble:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phase is back.
> 
> I think their onboard reverb is causing a LOT of phase issues and is a major factor to the issue with the sound we don't like. I'll provide some more screenshots.


Does anyone else think they hear phasing issues when using MSS?

I think I hear some odd sounds in the high violins for example, but I'm not sure if it is actually a phase issue, as it might be resonance.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Paul Jelfs said:


> Is anyone on here planning to do a video on ExL 1.1 when it lands ?


Hi Paul,

I'm sure @Soundbed will make a fantastic video, but if there's anything you'd like to hear or see in particular once the update lands, let me know. Work is crazy, but I sometimes have extra time and could put something together for you.


Noeticus said:


> Does anyone else think they hear phasing issues when using MSS?
> 
> I think I hear some odd sounds in the high violins for example, but I'm not sure if it is actually a phase issue, as it might be resonance.


Not hearing it here, but try playing with the brightness setting, that can sometimes pull down resonances on certain notes. Also try without the Molto setting. Since this is an additional layer, it _could _be introducing phasing at certain frequencies.


----------



## paulwr

Noeticus said:


> Does anyone else think they hear phasing issues when using MSS?
> 
> I think I hear some odd sounds in the high violins for example, but I'm not sure if it is actually a phase issue, as it might be resonance.


I haven't noticed it here. I have all the convolution/verbs in MSS turned off, I prefer my own always.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

^^speaking of which. Are there any specific reverbs/rooms you guys like for strings/orchestral stuff? At the moment I either use MSS’s or just the logic reverb. I have a few waves audio abbey road Reverb’s/tape sat but I use that more for my band and I think the abbey road chamber reverb just doesn’t work for orchestrations. Also I see some people use soothe2.
Thanks in advance for any feedback!


----------



## Vik

Baronvonheadless said:


> Are there any specific reverbs/rooms you guys like for strings/orchestral stuff?


Maybe this is interesting for you:


----------



## Pianolando

Baronvonheadless said:


> ^^speaking of which. Are there any specific reverbs/rooms you guys like for strings/orchestral stuff? At the moment I either use MSS’s or just the logic reverb. I have a few waves audio abbey road Reverb’s/tape sat but I use that more for my band and I think the abbey road chamber reverb just doesn’t work for orchestrations. Also I see some people use soothe2.
> Thanks in advance for any feedback!



7th heaven is really good. Nimbus (which can sometimes be found dirt cheap) is excellent as well. VSS3 is also amazing, but a bit pricier. All of them beats the Logic stock reverbs with quite a big margin IMO. This is the golden age for ITB reverbs, ten years ago there were nothing with this quality!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

With these being drier strings (compared to others, certainly they aren’t the _driest_), I’m really preferring a convolution reverb for at least the ER, if not completely. EW Spaces’ scoring stages + Pro-R works really well, as do the wetter concert halls in Spaces.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Pianolando said:


> 7th heaven is really good. Nimbus (which can sometimes be found dirt cheap) is excellent as well. VSS3 is also amazing, but a bit pricier. All of them beats the Logic stock reverbs with quite a big margin IMO. This is the golden age for ITB reverbs, ten years ago there were nothing with this quality!


Thank you, I’ve heard of vss3 and seen it mentioned here or somewhere recently. Looks like nimbus is the same price? Do you prefer one over the other? However, 7th heaven is def a bit more in my budget. I’m not able to listen to examples until later today. But curious how 7th heaven is compared to Valhalla room? Similar price range and I’ve seen ppl mention Valhalla room on the spitfire board.
Thanks for your thoughts!


----------



## Noeticus

Valhalla Room is fantastic!!!


----------



## Ryan Fultz

Baronvonheadless said:


> Thank you, I’ve heard of vss3 and seen it mentioned here or somewhere recently. Looks like nimbus is the same price? Do you prefer one over the other? However, 7th heaven is def a bit more in my budget. I’m not able to listen to examples until later today. But curious how 7th heaven is compared to Valhalla room? Similar price range and I’ve seen ppl mention Valhalla room on the spitfire board.
> Thanks for your thoughts!


7th Heaven is my reverb of choice for a natural hall for my orchestra. 

I personally hate Valhalla and am jealous of every person that seems to make it work for them so well.

I also have lexicon verbs, R4, soundtoys plate, blackhole, and pro-r that I use consistently for anything that isn't a hall.

R4 is my preferred reverb for featured solo instruments in a mix, blackhole for creative verb uses, and the others all get use when I need a plate or a room.

I'm not a huge fan of 7th for plates and smaller verbs, but that big hall sound just hits like magic for me the second I turn it on.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Ryan Fultz said:


> 7th Heaven is my reverb of choice for a natural hall for my orchestra.
> 
> I personally hate Valhalla and am jealous of every person that seems to make it work for them so well.
> 
> I also have lexicon verbs, R4, soundtoys plate, blackhole, and pro-r that I use consistently for anything that isn't a hall.
> 
> R4 is my preferred reverb for featured solo instruments in a mix, blackhole for creative verb uses, and the others all get use when I need a plate or a room.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of 7th for plates and smaller verbs, but that big hall sound just hits like magic for me the second I turn it on.


Nice! That’s good to hear since it’s a bit cheaper out of the 3. Can it do subtle well too? I’d like to be able to add a smidge of room to dry. Or to also be able to make lush when needed. My libraries include MSS, BBC core, & Bernard Herrmann for strings.


----------



## Ryan Fultz

Baronvonheadless said:


> Nice! That’s good to hear since it’s a bit cheaper out of the 3. Can it do subtle well too? I’d like to be able to add a smidge of room to dry. Or to also be able to make lush when needed. My libraries include MSS, BBC core, & Bernard Herrmann for strings.


It would be very well suited for those libraries. 

It definitely can add a bit of life and space without getting in the way.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Ryan Fultz said:


> It would be very well suited for those libraries.
> 
> It definitely can add a bit of life and space without getting in the way.


btw, is the $69 7th heaven worth it or are you referring to the professional?


----------



## Pianolando

Baronvonheadless said:


> Thank you, I’ve heard of vss3 and seen it mentioned here or somewhere recently. Looks like nimbus is the same price? Do you prefer one over the other? However, 7th heaven is def a bit more in my budget. I’m not able to listen to examples until later today. But curious how 7th heaven is compared to Valhalla room? Similar price range and I’ve seen ppl mention Valhalla room on the spitfire board.
> Thanks for your thoughts!


I would definitely go for 7th heaven, the Sandors Hall preset in the cheaper version is what you are looking for. Then pick up Nimbus sometime when it's on sale since it (and R4 from the same developer) are extraordinary as well. I prefer all of these over Valhalla reverbs, but some people love them and make them work perfectly so YMMV.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Right on! Just grabbed the $79 7th heaven. 

For Nimbus/R2/R4 do you need a physical ilok or is the cloud enough?

Thanks y'all!


----------



## Pianolando

Baronvonheadless said:


> Right on! Just grabbed the $79 7th heaven.
> 
> For Nimbus/R2/R4 do you need a physical ilok or is the cloud enough?
> 
> Thanks y'all!


Physical or machine licence I think. Grab any Exponential Audio reverb when on sale, or used, they are all exceptional.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Anyone ever get this crackle from MSS? It’s the only time I’ve noticed an issue. I’m in the scales category and was running around the keyboard and starting noticing this buzz now and then so I shut off the reverb to hear it better.
There’s no cpu spiking going on. It says it’s only at 10% in kontakt. It’s when I’m playing lower notes not in the higher register.

EDIT: It's also only when the smooth knob is turned up past 50%, when I take it to 50 and lower I don't hear it. It is also on the violins, not just violas, and regardless of the scale itself 










string buzz.m4a


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com


----------



## Ryan Fultz

Baronvonheadless said:


> btw, is the $69 7th heaven worth it or are you referring to the professional?


The professional is worth it for me because I like to tweak settings, but you can probably wait for a Black Friday sale to upgrade.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Here's another example of that weird buzz/pop sound. When the smooth knob is between 55-100% this happens. Which is a bummer because I love the smooth scale runs...

Anyone know why this is happening?

It's with or without reverb or mastering, and especially on the lower to mid register of the strings


----------



## robh

I hear that on my end too, but it only happens with Violin2A and / or 2B activated.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

robh said:


> I hear that on my end too, but it only happens with Violin2A and / or 2B activated.


Weird, I had it on viola and violins 1 and it's doing it...


----------



## robh

Baronvonheadless said:


> Weird, I had it on viola and violins 1 and it's doing it...


I had assumed you were only using the violins patch.


----------



## Noeticus

Noeticus said:


> Does anyone else think they hear phasing issues when using MSS?
> 
> I think I hear some odd sounds in the high violins for example, but I'm not sure if it is actually a phase issue, as it might be resonance.


I see now my mistake in thinking that there was something wrong with the MSS violin high notes.

I have had a listen to other string libraries, and the violins all basically have the same "irritating" sound in the highest notes.

So perhaps I do not care for these upper harmonics.


----------



## Obi-Wan Spaghetti

Pianolando said:


> 7th heaven is really good. Nimbus (which can sometimes be found dirt cheap) is excellent as well. VSS3 is also amazing, but a bit pricier. All of them beats the Logic stock reverbs with quite a big margin IMO. This is the golden age for ITB reverbs, ten years ago there were nothing with this quality!


And there's VSS4 HD Native now which is true stereo. Just $50 more than VSS3.


----------



## Soundbed

For reverbs I use R4 with a wide vintage hall preset tweaked a bit. Nimbus has something similar. 

Will probably try the new kid on the block, Cinematic Rooms, made by Liquid Sonics who also make 7th Heaven this Black Friday.


----------



## paulwr

Soundbed said:


> For reverbs I use R4 with a wide vintage hall preset tweaked a bit. Nimbus has something similar.
> 
> Will probably try the new kid on the block, Cinematic Rooms, made by Liquid Sonics who also make 7th Heaven this Black Friday.


I think you'll also be happy with Cinematic Rooms. I have most of the Exponential Audio verbs and am mixing my work mostly in Atmos 7.1.4 now. I and numerous others are relying in Stratus 3D from Exponential + Cinematic rooms for this setup. In Nuendo I can create a 7.0.4 group bus that is not possible in Pro Tools. AMAZING how well it creates a 3D environment that responds extremely well to source placement. I tried assigning MSS mic locations to different speaker sets in 7.1.4 for a 3D effect and much prefer the Stratus or Stratus + Cinematic rooms solution and its much simpler that way as well.


----------



## Per Boysen

Baronvonheadless said:


> MSS users, what are your favorite patches so far?
> 
> Here's a little string idea using:
> 
> Violins 1 & 2, Solo Violin, Violas, Celli, Two basses (one on harmonics, the other Sul Tasto), Two Viola Ostinatos and the Intuition Violin A.


Interesting! I really like the Ostinato functionality and my "fav patch" is to combine several instrument patches into a kind of mega patches similar to an orchestrator function. To do this I use Cubase's Expression Maps, the same map for Violins, Viola, and Celli. Then I also have to modify the MSS patches to have complementary articulations at the same Switcher spot, as well as complimentary "transform instrument" settings in the Kontakt patches. This way you can then set up a number of instrument groups that listen to the same MIDI channel and instantly switch articulations to orchestrate on-the-fly. With the Ostinatos, I make sure that the timings, within such a "Big Shebang patch", are different so a poly-rhythm that I like is heard between the combined instrument groups. 

I had initially some problems making my 32 GB RAM computer host everything inside VEPro, but since I got rid of the Spitfire Player stuff, real-time streaming has been working like a charm between Kontakt patches, saved in the Global Purge mode, and my SSD samples drives. BTW, does someone know if there is a way to do the "save patch as globally purged" trick with the SF Player?

My computer has 8 cores, so it makes sense to use 4 VPE instruments in Cubase. In VEP I organize them into these 4 mixer channels (to distribute CPU work equally over the cores) that come back through Cubase group tracks that include bus mix treatments: 

- Harp, Piano, Percussion,
- Strings, 
- Winds, 
- Brass. 

The more I fiddle around with MSS (and MSB too), the more I start thinking about these libraries as "a modular music-making facility", that can be used in so many different ways.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Per Boysen said:


> Interesting! I really like the Ostinato functionality and my "fav patch" is to combine several instrument patches into a kind of mega patches similar to an orchestrator function. To do this I use Cubase's Expression Maps, the same map for Violins, Viola, and Celli. Then I also have to modify the MSS patches to have complementary articulations at the same Switcher spot, as well as complimentary "transform instrument" settings in the Kontakt patches. This way you can then set up a number of instrument groups that listen to the same MIDI channel and instantly switch articulations to orchestrate on-the-fly. With the Ostinatos, I make sure that the timings, within such a "Big Shebang patch", are different so a poly-rhythm that I like is heard between the combined instrument groups.
> 
> I had initially some problems making my 32 GB RAM computer host everything inside VEPro, but since I got rid of the Spitfire Player stuff, real-time streaming has been working like a charm between Kontakt patches, saved in the Global Purge mode, and my SSD samples drives. BTW, does someone know if there is a way to do the "save patch as globally purged" trick with the SF Player?
> 
> My computer has 8 cores, so it makes sense to use 4 VPE instruments in Cubase. In VEP I organize them into these 4 mixer channels (to distribute CPU work equally over the cores) that come back through Cubase group tracks that include bus mix treatments:
> 
> - Harp, Piano, Percussion,
> - Strings,
> - Winds,
> - Brass.
> 
> The more I fiddle around with MSS (and MSB too), the more I start thinking about these libraries as "a modular music-making facility", that can be used in so many different ways.


Whoa this sounds awesome. I’d love to hear an example. It sounds daunting to my midi experience/lack of expertise at the moment but I’m still learning. I use logic but I’m sure there’s a way to do this too. I’m still new to midi.
Just to clarify, you’re loading several patches into the same kontakt player right? So all in one midi track right? For some reason with MSS, (I have the free kontakt player) I haven’t been able to do this like I can with my other kontakt libraries. I also use an older midi keyboard (maudio key station 61) and when the kontakt libraries are chosen (default to all midi channels) usually in kontakt I switch it to Omni and then my keyboard can trigger the midi. Otherwise it’s not connected. When I use the sine player I have to just go to the actual logic channel and switch it from All to channel 1 and it works. With MSS in kontakt there is no option to change the midi channel from all to Omni so I have to do it the same way I do in sine player and choose channel 1.
I wonder if this is why I can’t seem to layer different mss instruments in the same kontakt player?
Sorry if this is confusing might be different in different daws.


----------



## Per Boysen

Baronvonheadless said:


> Just to clarify, you’re loading several patches into the same kontakt player right? So all in one midi track right? For some reason with MSS, (I have the free kontakt player) I haven’t been able to do this like I can with my other kontakt libraries. I also use an older midi keyboard (maudio key station 61) and when the kontakt libraries are chosen (default to all midi channels) usually in kontakt I switch it to Omni and then my keyboard can trigger the midi. Otherwise it’s not connected. When I use the sine player I have to just go to the actual logic channel and switch it from All to channel 1 and it works. With MSS in kontakt there is no option to change the midi channel from all to Omni so I have to do it the same way I do in sine player and choose channel 1.
> I wonder if this is why I can’t seem to layer different mss instruments in the same kontakt player?
> Sorry if this is confusing might be different in different daws.


Well, along those lines but not exactly so. Here's the setup:

One instrument track runs the VEPro Instrument, which is sending through MIDI ch 1, followed by 15 MIDI tracks sending through MIDI ch 2-16. Now, on the receiving end, VEPro server streaming software is running on the same computer. It receivers that MIDI, all 16 channels of MIDI and transmits it into Kontakt. It is in the VEPro Server that I am opening the Kontakt instance. But from there it is like you said; I keep up to 16 instrument patches in each Kontakt instance. I'm pretty new to using VEPro but it is the best change I've ever done! I can't understand why I have not moved into this earlier, as it allows me to run ten times bigger projects without the dreadful Low CPU Creepshow. When keeping all the Kontakt instances purged nothing is loaded into RAM until I play a note, then VEPro loads the instrument instantly by streaming and sends the resulting audio back into the DAW. If I should use the same number of Kontakt instruments just in Logic/Cubase (or whatever DAW) the computer would need more RAM than can physically fit into the machine  

Two good things with Kontakt, for this workflow scenario, is that (1) if you load several copies of the same instrument, but with different playback settings, Kontakt will still only load one set of the samples used and (2) the possibility to do Global Purge on all Kontakt instances so no samples have to be loaded into RAM until you start playing them.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Per Boysen said:


> Well, along those lines but not exactly so. Here's the setup:
> 
> One instrument track runs the VEPro Instrument, which is sending through MIDI ch 1, followed by 15 MIDI tracks sending through MIDI ch 2-16. Now, on the receiving end, VEPro server streaming software is running on the same computer. It receivers that MIDI, all 16 channels of MIDI and transmits it into Kontakt. It is in the VEPro Server that I am opening the Kontakt instance. But from there it is like you said; I keep up to 16 instrument patches in each Kontakt instance. I'm pretty new to using VEPro but it is the best change I've ever done! I can't understand why I have not moved into this earlier, as it allows me to run ten times bigger projects without the dreadful Low CPU Creepshow. When keeping all the Kontakt instances purged nothing is loaded into RAM until I play a note, then VEPro loads the instrument instantly by streaming and sends the resulting audio back into the DAW. If I should use the same number of Kontakt instruments just in Logic/Cubase (or whatever DAW) the computer would need more RAM than can physically fit into the machine
> 
> Two good things with Kontakt, for this workflow scenario, is that (1) if you load several copies of the same instrument, but with different playback settings, Kontakt will still only load one set of the samples used and (2) the possibility to do Global Purge on all Kontakt instances so no samples have to be loaded into RAM until you start playing them.


Oh ok wow! That’s crazy. Vienna ensemble pro yea? I’ve never really looked into it or anything like that yet. Probably wise down the line!


----------



## dzilizzi

If you are in Logic, make sure you are using the VST3 version of Kontakt and not the AU version. The AU version doesn't allow multi outs. At least this is what I have been hearing the EW thread.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

dzilizzi said:


> If you are in Logic, make sure you are using the VST3 version of Kontakt and not the AU version. The AU version doesn't allow multi outs. At least this is what I have been hearing the EW thread.


Not to derail the thread too much, but how does one differentiate/do that?

For example, see the difference between these two VST's in Kontakt? There is nowhere to choose midi channel in MSS for me.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

dzilizzi said:


> If you are in Logic, make sure you are using the VST3 version of Kontakt and not the AU version. The AU version doesn't allow multi outs. At least this is what I have been hearing the EW thread.


No problem here! Logic doesn’t support VST natively, instead requiring wrappers to use VST plugins. With that said, I’m not having any issue with multi-outs using Kontakt that isn’t simply a Kontakt (or me) issue. I just finished exporting separate mic stems from MSS for a demo, and the only issues I had were with how Kontakt itself handles outputs. I really loathe Kontakt


----------



## Peros

Baronvonheadless said:


> Not to derail the thread too much, but how does one differentiate/do that?
> 
> For example, see the difference between these two VST's in Kontakt? There is nowhere to choose midi channel in MSS for me.


You click on the little ”i” icon above where it’s written purge and you will see the midi in and output option


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Peros said:


> You click on the little ”i” icon above where it’s written purge and you will see the midi in and output option


DUDE. lmao. Thank you so much!


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Cross-posting here. Worked on a demo showcasing MSS, MSB, and Genesis:






Combining MSS, MSB, and Genesis - Stems Included


Hey all, Thought I'd put this in its own post for its own discussion. I put together a track using MSS, MSB, and Genesis to showcase how the libraries interact with each other (+ a bit of percussion from HWP non-opus): I also thought it would be interesting, and potentially useful, if...




vi-control.net





Feedback welcome!


----------



## Noeticus

Any update from AudioBro?


----------



## Pianolando

Baronvonheadless said:


> Right on! Just grabbed the $79 7th heaven.
> 
> For Nimbus/R2/R4 do you need a physical ilok or is the cloud enough?
> 
> Thanks y'all!



Now they are super discounted (92% off or something) at AudioDeluxe, no brainers at this price IMO.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Pianolando said:


> Now they are super discounted (92% off or something) at AudioDeluxe, no brainers at this price IMO.


So I just went ahead and grabbed the bundle cuz that's a DEAL!

However, I've only been emailed the license and got them activated in ilok but I haven't received a serial number to download thru izotope...how am I supposed to download the actual plugins?


----------



## Casiquire

Pianolando said:


> Now they are super discounted (92% off or something) at AudioDeluxe, no brainers at this price IMO.


They're very good? How do they compare to 7th Heaven?

I don't mean to derail. Everyone's been so quiet since the update and I'm waiting to see more demos and reviews of how people feel about the updated sound!


----------



## dzilizzi

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I just went ahead and grabbed the bundle cuz that's a DEAL!
> 
> However, I've only been emailed the license and got them activated in ilok but I haven't received a serial number to download thru izotope...how am I supposed to download the actual plugins?


The iLok serial number is the same as the Izotope one or at least it should be. They have a product downloader. Or you can see if there is a trial you can download. But you probably want to register with them.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

dzilizzi said:


> The iLok serial number is the same as the Izotope one or at least it should be. They have a product downloader. Or you can see if there is a trial you can download. But you probably want to register with them.


Ok so I just figured out that they have individual product downloaders and do not use the Product Portal so I didn't need a serial number. 

However, I just installed/downloaded all three and for some reason R2 is the only one showing up in Logic, neither Nimbus or R4 is showing up...

LOL what the fuck is happening? Is my brain turned off or something tonight?


----------



## dzilizzi

Baronvonheadless said:


> Ok so I just figured out that they have individual product downloaders and do not use the Product Portal so I didn't need a serial number.
> 
> However, I just installed/downloaded all three and for some reason R2 is the only one showing up in Logic, neither Nimbus or R4 is showing up...
> 
> LOL what the fuck is happening? Is my brain turned off or something tonight?


I bought them a few years ago when they were still Exponential Audio. Izotope knows I own them, but my downloads weren't from them. Are you looking at AU or VSTs? I'm a PC, I don't really know why they aren't showing up. It is S.H.I.T. day, so maybe that's it (So Happy It's Thursday!)


----------



## Baronvonheadless

dzilizzi said:


> I bought them a few years ago when they were still Exponential Audio. Izotope knows I own them, but my downloads weren't from them. Are you looking at AU or VSTs? I'm a PC, I don't really know why they aren't showing up. It is S.H.I.T. day, so maybe that's it (So Happy It's Thursday!)


I'm on a Mac so I need the AU, which should be downloading...so weird that only R2 is showing up...downloaded all 3 the exact same way...


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Baronvonheadless said:


> I'm on a Mac so I need the AU, which should be downloading...so weird that only R2 is showing up...downloaded all 3 the exact same way...


Did you restart your computer? Logic is notorious for not always recognizing newly installed plugins without a restart.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Casiquire said:


> They're very good? How do they compare to 7th Heaven?
> 
> I don't mean to derail. Everyone's been so quiet since the update and I'm waiting to see more demos and reviews of how people feel about the updated sound!


If the expanded legato update is in the same vein as the core library update, I think you’re _really_ going to like it. Andrew and Sebastian really nailed the legatos, and the flexibility.


----------



## Casiquire

Duncan Krummel said:


> If the expanded legato update is in the same vein as the core library update, I think you’re _really_ going to like it. Andrew and Sebastian really nailed the legatos, and the flexibility.


That just improves the odds of me getting the Main even more

I have to wonder whether they sightly rushed the release and the update is closer to what was actually planned. At least from the outside, there's a certain level of polish and a sense of things being in their proper place when i look at the update


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Duncan Krummel said:


> Did you restart your computer? Logic is notorious for not always recognizing newly installed plugins without a restart.


Yes that fixed it! Thanks mate. First time that was ever an issue with logic for me so didn't even think about that! Cheers.

Anyways, MSS rules! Back on Topic


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> For reverbs I use R4 with a wide vintage hall preset tweaked a bit. Nimbus has something similar.
> 
> Will probably try the new kid on the block, Cinematic Rooms, made by Liquid Sonics who also make 7th Heaven this Black Friday.


Hey brother, you mind sharing your tweak/set up for R4? Just picked it up and it’s a daunting one! A lot to choose/mess with. I’m a master of spring reverb with my guitar, this type of reverb is another world for me tho.


----------



## Pianolando

Casiquire said:


> They're very good? How do they compare to 7th Heaven?



They are very very good, world class reverbs. Nimbus is super clean and invisible, built for natural/realistic rooms, R2 and R4 are more inspired by vintage lexicons, so a more colored sound. I use them both but I also use 7th heaven which I love as well.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Been a little quite here lately, thought I'd share this. Modern Scoring Strings throughout mixed in with Abbey Road One and Junkie XL. Bits of BBC here and there, mainly winds. And Talin's choir in the intro. A lot of instruments running through seventh heaven reverb to blend together, with a slight chamber setting.

Think they blend well together, really loving MSS as my main string library. Can also do very similar things to SCS on the close mic only run thru a chamber reverb...been thinking of getting SCS but I think MSS will suffice to be honest...


----------



## samplin

Baronvonheadless said:


> Been a little quite here lately, thought I'd share this. Modern Scoring Strings throughout mixed in with Abbey Road One and Junkie XL. Bits of BBC here and there, mainly winds. And Talin's choir in the intro. A lot of instruments running through seventh heaven reverb to blend together, with a slight chamber setting.
> 
> Think they blend well together, really loving MSS as my main string library. Can also do very similar things to SCS on the close mic only run thru a chamber reverb...been thinking of getting SCS but I think MSS will suffice to be honest...



sounds great!, I like the blend with abbey road. I haven't tried blending yet, but will soon. did you use close mics or the MSS mics? Im still playing around with options.


----------



## SquirrelMan

I've been enjoying MSS so much since the day it was released that I'm gonna pick up MSB. I like how AudioBro does things.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

samplin said:


> sounds great!, I like the blend with abbey road. I haven't tried blending yet, but will soon. did you use close mics or the MSS mics? Im still playing around with options.


Thank you! For MSS sometimes I’ll use their mix and turn off eq and reverb and do my own. Or depending on how big I want it to sound I’ll do my own blend of the close/stage/surround, leaning heavier on the close mic!


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> Hey brother, you mind sharing your tweak/set up for R4? Just picked it up and it’s a daunting one! A lot to choose/mess with. I’m a master of spring reverb with my guitar, this type of reverb is another world for me tho.


Here is a screenshot, I don’t know what I changed exactly:  skip to the 6 minute mark


----------



## Noc

@dxmachina Could we bother you for a quick progress report? Were there unexpected delays with the Expanded Legato update?


----------



## Noeticus

Sorry that this is off topic... but can someone tell me what instrument is doing the glissando in this old film music from the "Night of Dark Shadows" (1971) film?

The gliss that I am unsure of starts at 12 seconds in on this video...




Is it a clarinet? or ???

The music is called.. "Nightmare in the Past".


----------



## Soundbed

Noeticus said:


> Sorry that this is off topic... but can someone tell me what instrument is doing the glissando in this old film music from the "Night of Dark Shadows" (1971) film?
> 
> The gliss that I am unsure of starts at 12 seconds in on this video...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it a clarinet? or ???
> 
> The music is called.. "Nightmare in the Past".



sounds like an alto flute drenched in reverb & delay


----------



## Noeticus

Soundbed said:


> sounds like an alto flute drenched in reverb & delay


Thanks!!!, but can an Alto Flute do a gliss like this? I am unsure? Perhaps it's not even a gliss?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Noeticus said:


> Thanks, but can an Alto Flute do a gliss like this? I am unsure? Perhaps it's not even a gliss?


For sure an alto flute. The reverb/delay is obscuring it, but I hear distinct pitches there, so it's a flute glissando.

Here's a quick video describing the technique:




If you were ever after a smooth slide, you can bend notes on the flute by adjusting tilt and embouchure, or with a glissando head joint, though those are pretty rare.


----------



## Nimrod7

Duncan Krummel said:


> Did you restart your computer? Logic is notorious for not always recognizing newly installed plugins without a restart.


A log-off log in again after installing will do. 
Saves some time over restart.


----------



## Noeticus

Duncan Krummel said:


> For sure an alto flute. The reverb/delay is obscuring it, but I hear distinct pitches there, so it's a flute glissando.
> 
> Here's a quick video describing the technique:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you were ever after a smooth slide, you can bend notes on the flute by adjusting tilt and embouchure, or with a glissando head joint, though those are pretty rare.



Thank you!!! Yes, I hear now that it is not a smooth gliss, but has some steps in it. 

What VST VI library is best for this?


----------



## turnerofwheels

Noc said:


> @dxmachina Could we bother you for a quick progress report? Were there unexpected delays with the Expanded Legato update?


I saw them mention "in the next few days" exactly one week ago on the audiobro forums so I assume it's gotta be real soon... I'm looking forward to it

That aside, @Noeticus I do love that classic vintage delay and woodwind sound. I imagine you'd want a fairly dry and present patch for that, maybe something like the alto flute from Orchestral Tools Woodwinds Soloists 1 (I only have their regular WW library, just guessing by the sound).


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Did this today to practice with the new Abbey Road winds and ended up throwing MSS and Junkie XL all over this one...I really like how they blend. Using a combo of R4 and Seventh Heaven reverb on different string patches by MSS for different reasons...


----------



## Per Boysen

Baronvonheadless said:


> Whoa this sounds awesome. I’d love to hear an example.


Here's an example. In the middle of the piece, you can hear the ostinato violins behind the vocals. I made a new patch throwing three violin instruments (I, II, and Solo Violine) into the same Kontakt instance, all set to the same MIDI channel. Ostinatos set to different patterns, so the full patch will create a moving texture and one instrument transposed one octave. I also edited the Switcher note numbers so that complementary ostinatos (and other alterations) get simultaneously recalled by the same Cubase Expression Map (using one map to control them all).


----------



## SquirrelMan

According to my girlfriend who's full time flutist - "It's a simple downward chromatic finger gliss on Alto. The flutist is moving their head at the beginning to bend the note because moving your head fucks up your intonation". 

Just add delay and reverb.


----------



## Soundbed

SquirrelMan said:


> moving your head fucks up your intonation".


couldn’t have said it better


----------



## Noeticus

Okay, so is the falling chromatic gliss I hear in this wonderful old "Black Magic" Chocolates TV commercial, directed by Adrian Lyne, also done with an Alto Flute?




StackPath




also...


----------



## Soundbed

Yep, sounds like it from my phone.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Noeticus said:


> Okay, so is the falling chromatic gliss I hear in this wonderful old "Black Magic" Chocolates TV commercial, directed by Adrian Lyne, also done with an Alto Flute?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StackPath
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also...



Yep! But listen to the glissandi, I hear two alto flutes in unison (imperfectly on the gliss.), which is probably a big part of why we hear such a warm, almost chorusing like effect.


----------



## Soundbed

Duncan Krummel said:


> Yep! But listen to the glissandi, I hear two alto flutes in unison (imperfectly on the gliss.), which is probably a big part of why we hear such a warm, almost chorusing like effect.


Agreed.


----------



## alcorey

Noeticus said:


> Okay, so is the falling chromatic gliss I hear in this wonderful old "Black Magic" Chocolates TV commercial, directed by Adrian Lyne, also done with an Alto Flute?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StackPath
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also...



Very pleasant piece to listen to.....I can almost taste the chocolates


----------



## soulofsound

Alto flutes are a very peculiar sound.


----------



## alcorey

I'm wanting to perform 1/8 note staccato/spicatto rebows on two strings (up, down, up, down, up, down.......etc.)
Is this possible in MSS or any library?
Please forgive me, I'm not a string player.



The above was done by manipulating midi velocities high then low on every other note - but I'm hoping to achieve the same end result with rebowing....am I asking to do something that is not possible?


----------



## SquirrelMan

Duncan Krummel said:


> Yep! But listen to the glissandi, I hear two alto flutes in unison (imperfectly on the gliss.), which is probably a big part of why we hear such a warm, almost chorusing like effect.


There's actually a discussion in the comments about how many flutes and who it was:


----------



## Per Boysen

Noeticus said:


> Sorry that this is off topic... but can someone tell me what instrument is doing the glissando in this old film music from the "Night of Dark Shadows" (1971) film?
> 
> The gliss that I am unsure of starts at 12 seconds in on this video...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it a clarinet? or ???
> 
> The music is called.. "Nightmare in the Past".



I first thought it was made by a violinist (through a delay unit) by bowing very close to the bridge and only slightly touching a string with a left-hand finger, thus producing only overtone harmonies by sliding along the string. Then I remembered a flute-playing colleague that owns a unique flute mouthpiece, that has been customized with a kind of kazoo-like vibrator inside the tube. Something like that might have been used for in this clip, the sound is quite alike as I remember it.


----------



## Soundbed

SquirrelMan said:


> There's actually a discussion in the comments about how many flutes and who it was:


Darn it my first guess was bass flute but I didn’t trust myself enough.


----------



## Noeticus

Any update on the MSS update?


----------



## samplin

Noeticus said:


> Any update on the MSS update?


Audiobro support page earlier. 

Hi Guys,

Deepest applogies.

we're working on 2 things at the same time. Exp Leg as well as another overall update. Lookahead will (IMO) be a big deal. You will be able to 100% quantize your MIDI and all the articulations (Leg, Port, Gliss, Martele, Spic, Pizz, etc etc...) will all play back in time without the need for tedious MIDI editing. THAT is what is taking us so long. Because we have to make sure the LPG in Exp Leg also play nicely with it.

But we are hoping next week barring any show stoppers.

Thanks for your patience.

Cheers,

Andrew K


----------



## Casiquire

samplin said:


> Audiobro support page earlier.
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> Deepest applogies.
> 
> we're working on 2 things at the same time. Exp Leg as well as another overall update. Lookahead will (IMO) be a big deal. You will be able to 100% quantize your MIDI and all the articulations (Leg, Port, Gliss, Martele, Spic, Pizz, etc etc...) will all play back in time without the need for tedious MIDI editing. THAT is what is taking us so long. Because we have to make sure the LPG in Exp Leg also play nicely with it.
> 
> But we are hoping next week barring any show stoppers.
> 
> Thanks for your patience.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew K


Wow wow wow. I love this company


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> Wow wow wow. I love this company








Sorry, but I’m sure we can all agree this was necessary.

I do agree though. Audiobro have a way of making delays acceptable considering what we get for them.


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> Sorry, but I’m sure we can all agree this was necessary.
> 
> I do agree though. Audiobro have a way of making delays acceptable considering what we get for them.


That's literally what i heard in my head when i typed it! But it felt right


----------



## Trevor Meier

samplin said:


> Audiobro support page earlier.
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> Deepest applogies.
> 
> we're working on 2 things at the same time. Exp Leg as well as another overall update. Lookahead will (IMO) be a big deal. You will be able to 100% quantize your MIDI and all the articulations (Leg, Port, Gliss, Martele, Spic, Pizz, etc etc...) will all play back in time without the need for tedious MIDI editing. THAT is what is taking us so long. Because we have to make sure the LPG in Exp Leg also play nicely with it.
> 
> But we are hoping next week barring any show stoppers.
> 
> Thanks for your patience.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew K


So this is a delay delay (delay… delay… delay…) 

Dammit, I told y’all to turn down the feedback!


----------



## [email protected]

Quick question: I re-installed the update to make sure everything will work - but I still run into some issues. I want to load all divisi sections separately to root them easily to individual channels and outputs. I now have two different "split"-folders. Am I right that the one with the space in front of the name is the new/updated one?






I can't really make sure because the UI is still broken.





I tried to use the repair-method suggested by Spitfire here, but I can't find a "script" folder in my _Modern-Scoring-Strings_-folder: https://spitfireaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204908126-White-GUI-in-Kontakt

So what can I do to get the UI right and finally use this stuff?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

[email protected] said:


> Quick question: I re-installed the update to make sure everything will work - but I still run into some issues. I want to load all divisi sections separately to root them easily to individual channels and outputs. I now have two different "split"-folders. Am I right that the one with the space in front of the name is the new/updated one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't really make sure because the UI is still broken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tried to use the repair-method suggested by Spitfire here, but I can't find a "script" folder in my _Modern-Scoring-Strings_-folder: https://spitfireaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204908126-White-GUI-in-Kontakt
> 
> So what can I do to get the UI right and finally use this stuff?


Did you post in the AB forums or email support already? They probably would know best.


----------



## Altauria

I hope one of their updates will include separate patches per articulation. Duplicating the patches to isolate them causes enormous up-charges with memory usage. Can't figure why as many other libraries don't really do that, and if they do it's negligible.


----------



## ljtaylor80

Can anyone help me figure out why MSS makes Cubase 11 take forever to save and even longer to actually close down? Projects with MSS loaded save and close quickly. The more instances I have of MSS, the longer it takes for these processes. Am I missing something?


----------



## Soundbed

samplin said:


> You will be able to 100% quantize your MIDI and all the articulations (Leg, Port, Gliss, Martele, Spic, Pizz, etc etc...) will all play back in time without the need for tedious MIDI editing. THAT is what is taking us so long


Holy cow I missed this! Wow that’s really great, I am definitely going to enjoy that!


----------



## Casiquire

From the Audiobro forums a couple days ago, sorry if it's already been posted:


Well, we have one new feature that was a HUGE amount of work... but we wanted v1.2 to be a coordinated release for MSS Main and MSS Exp Leg. But the video I'm working on now is "just" the Exp Leg walkthrough comparing the different tones and Leg/Port/Gliss with the Sordino, Sul Tasto, and Sul Pont with the 1.2 engine.

The new Legato modes in Exp Leg are going to be the same as the Main 1.1. But to integrate Sord/Sul Tosto/Sul Pont with the new legato features was not trivial to say the least.

Thank you for your patience.

Cheers,

Andrew K


----------



## novaburst

have you batched re saved the library


----------



## Casiquire

Today's update from Sebastian:


It's possible it would slip to early next week, but feeling optimistic for this week.


----------



## Evans




----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Looks like 1.2 is out too!

The lookahead feature is revolutionary!


----------



## Evans

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The lookahead feature is revolutionary!


We need something like this for people's driving!


----------



## Soundbed

Evans said:


>



one of the better demonstration videos from a sample dev I've seen. sounds great, guys!


----------



## lettucehat




----------



## Casiquire

This sounds great to me. I'd love to hear more user demos but I'm excited to try the expanded updates myself. The legato and bloom sound good and i already know how expressive and perfectly portioned the swell was with LASS. Having control over that now is even better.

If i had to nitpick, the bowed articulations still kind of just sound like an accented attack more than an actual performed bowed legato, but i can live with that


----------



## ansthenia

Anyone else feel like the Violins I legato seems less smooth and bumpier than the other sections?


----------



## Architekton

Wow, that look ahead will be such a time saver! Great job, AudioBro!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> This sounds great to me. I'd love to hear more user demos but I'm excited to try the expanded updates myself. The legato and bloom sound good and i already know how expressive and perfectly portioned the swell was with LASS. Having control over that now is even better.
> 
> If i had to nitpick, the bowed articulations still kind of just sound like an accented attack more than an actual performed bowed legato, but i can live with that


Yeah it'd be nice if they considered another knob to control the accent volume on the bowed legato @dxmachina


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Yeah it'd be nice if they considered another knob to control the accent volume on the bowed legato @dxmachina


I question whether it's a recorded bow change or not. If not, i don't even think a controllable knob would do the trick.


----------



## Wenlone

Casiquire said:


> I question whether it's a recorded bow change or not. If not, i don't even think a controllable knob would do the trick.


There is no bowed legato. It's just accented sustain. They changed its name with an update.


----------



## lettucehat

I don't think they've claimed they're recorded bow changes, pretty sure it's layered articulations.


----------



## Casiquire

Wenlone said:


> There is no bowed legato. It's just accented sustain. They changed its name with an update.


The old name was better. Wish there was an actual bow change


----------



## Soundbed

lettucehat said:


>



omg i can finally quantize and use tempo maps AND articulation switch without "hassle" 

"modern" (by which I mean contemporary) scoring, here i come


----------



## John Longley

Thanks for this @dxmachina and team, it's fantastic.


----------



## Nimrod7

I have the basic library (which I love) but hearing the demo above, I am considering getting the extended legato addon. 

I have OT Special Bows, but I am wondering if anyone that has both can comment.


----------



## Soundbed

Nimrod7 said:


> I have the basic library (which I love) but hearing the demo above, I am considering getting the extended legato addon.
> 
> I have OT Special Bows, but I am wondering if anyone that has both can comment.


I have both. What comments are you looking for?


----------



## Nimrod7

Soundbed said:


> I have both. What comments are you looking for?


Thanks @Soundbed, mostly caring about mixing MSS with Berlin Special Bows. Do you find them working well together or you feel there are significant benefits getting MSS Extended Legatos? 
This is something that is hard to judge from the demos.


----------



## Soundbed

Nimrod7 said:


> Thanks @Soundbed, mostly caring about mixing MSS with Berlin Special Bows. Do you find them working well together or you feel there are significant benefits getting MSS Extended Legatos?
> This is something that is hard to judge from the demos.



I suppose in practice the way you’d use them “together” means you’d play some of the piece with MSS and then switch to Berlin Special Bows for some sections, right? 

Workflow considerations aside, MSS is more flexible from a mixing standpoint so the trick would be to make MSS sound more like Teldex … bad news is haven’t tried this yet. 

Good news is I haven’t met a sample library MSS doesn’t “play well with” yet.


----------



## turnerofwheels

I don't have special bows but I do have BWW and JXL, er I gotta call this holkenbrass now right? Anyway, it should easy enough to try this with the Teldex preset in Altiverb.


----------



## ism

I only have the Special Bows, but it's sounds to me that MSS and SB are completely different visions of the Sul Tasto, just at the basic level of the sound.

Additionally, the SBs have 3 dynamic layers, which makes a huge different, and capture a very different sense of of texture and arc. Whereas your typical high romantic CSS-like library has a progressive vibrato baked in that always drives to the next note like a basketball team always needing to go on the offence to score the next point, the SBs have textural dimensions in the performance that allow notes to inhabit different space within the constantly repeated point scoring drive. This is enhanced by the multiple arcs, portato, soft attack etc and the releases samples on the violins. The highest dynamic layer, however does restore some of the possibility for lines with something of a high romantic drive, albeit still with more subtly and texture that a conventional high romantic line. The 3 dynamic layers are crucial here, as is the nuance of the performance, as is keeping the mix clear enough so that you can actually hear these nuances, otherwise it's just another library with an unusually soft timbre (albeit an extremely beautiful one). 

MSS (which I don't have) sounds very lovely also, but with a very different, more ethereal conception of sul tasto. It's also, I believe, a single dynamic layer, so for this and many other reasons, it opens a completely different expressive space that the SBs. 

The ultimate point being here that you can never have too many Sul Tasto libraries.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

ism said:


> I only have the Special Bows, but it's sounds to me that MSS and SB are completely different visions of the Sul Tasto, just at the basic level of the sound.
> 
> Additionally, the SBs have 3 dynamic layers, which makes a huge different, and capture a very different sense of of texture and arc. Whereas your typical high romantic CSS-like library has a progressive vibrato baked in that always drives to the next note like a basketball team always needing to go on the offence to score the next point, the SBs have textural dimensions in the performance that allow notes to inhabit different space within the constantly repeated point scoring drive. This is enhanced by the multiple arcs, portato, soft attack etc and the releases samples on the violins. The highest dynamic layer, however does restore some of the possibility for lines with something of a high romantic drive, albeit still with more subtly and texture that a conventional high romantic line. The 3 dynamic layers are crucial here, as is the nuance of the performance, as is keeping the mix clear enough so that you can actually hear these nuances, otherwise it's just another library with an unusually soft timbre (albeit an extremely beautiful one).
> 
> MSS (which I don't have) sounds very lovely also, but with a very different, more ethereal conception of sul tasto. It's also, I believe, a single dynamic layer, so for this and many other reasons, it opens a completely different expressive space that the SBs.
> 
> The ultimate point being here that you can never have too many Sul Tasto libraries.


I thought MSS expanded has 4 dynamic layers (where appropriate), same as MSS main library?


----------



## turnerofwheels

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I thought MSS expanded has 4 dynamic layers (where appropriate), same as MSS main library?








They don't say how many, but it's clearly more than one for the Sordino and Sul Pont, along with the bloom/crescendo recordings. 

(FWIW: My ears pick out two clear layers for the sordino and sul pont articulations each)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

turnerofwheels said:


> They don't say how many, but it's clearly more than one for the Sordino and Sul Pont, along with the bloom/crescendo recordings.
> 
> (FWIW: My ears pick out two clear layers for the sordino and sul pont articulations each)


I imagine Sordino and Sul Pont are 4 layers then, similar to the main library which is also ppp to fff. Sul Tasto based on their note then is likely just one though maybe they did a few more round robins.


----------



## karender

Con sordino and Sul Pont have 2 layers. Sul tasto only has 1 layer.

Violins, Celli - 4 Dyn Sustains, 3 Dyn Shorts
Violas, Basses - 3 Dyn Sustains, 3 Dyn Shorts

They don't sound like ppp to fff. Sounds more like pp to f-ff ish. (Normal bowing and shorts without layer)


----------



## Nimrod7

Soundbed said:


> I suppose in practice the way you’d use them “together” means you’d play some of the piece with MSS and then switch to Berlin Special Bows for some sections, right?


Thanks for the input!

Same time mostly, e.g. some low strings Basses & Celli with MSS with a Special Bows Sul Tasto Legato Violin on top.
The different rooms recorded is my concern, and if they "fit" and sound good together.


----------



## Pablocrespo

For those updating the main library, Alex has posted instructions to do it without losing cc mappings etc. 



AudioBro.com • Login


----------



## Soundbed

Nimrod7 said:


> Thanks for the input!
> 
> Same time mostly, e.g. some low strings Basses & Celli with MSS with a Special Bows Sul Tasto Legato Violin on top.
> The different rooms recorded is my concern, and if they "fit" and sound good together.


ah! okay well I will make another video then lol. i just made this but it's violins 1 only.

first MSS 1A
then MSS 1B
then MSS 1A + 1B

Mod wheel was at 50% for all examples, and all examples use legato

all basically out of the box, with minimal volume matching that goes out the window when MSS 1A+1B play together

thoughts on the sound:

the MSS Arco out of the box is already EQ'd and reverb'd to sound quite similar to BSB sul tasto out of the box, imho. this can change with different EQ, verb, dynamic levels
BSB sul pont sounds very distinct, and as discussed before MSS sul pont is more of a subtle shift toward the bridge.
MSS violin section 1B does sound different than 1A, but both have 8 players i believe, same as BSB violins 1
keep in mind the mics "by default" in my examples are a little different. this is only the decca mics in BSB but the "Stage + Surround" mics in the MSS, plus their default reverb. no close mics in this example.
MSS sul tasto has a little "bloom" naturally and tends to sound a little more resonant and full at this dynamic settings, even compared to Arco (I boosted the sound of MSS Arco and the Sul Tasto MSS still sounds a bit fuller and "louder")
the legato on the BSB sul pont ... I guess I chose an interval where there's a little "overlap" that we hear over and over sorry
the legato on the BSB sul tasto is much more "separated" than MSS, so the transitions are a bit more "hidden" by default. this can of course be compensated with mod wheel movement on either instrument to make them more simpatico i'm sure.


----------



## Soundbed

Nimrod7 said:


> some low strings Basses & Celli with MSS with a Special Bows Sul Tasto Legato Violin on top


here's a quick phrase with unrealistically long legato.

mss bass on bloom, playing 1 octave below mss cellos, otherwise completely out of the box
bsb violins 1 + 2 + violas playing together, sul tasto, completely out of the box

someone who knows better would recognise these as different string packages,

but at first "glance" there's not much to do to make mss sound like it can fit with bsb in a context like this, right?

View attachment mss in teldex cellos basses.mp3


----------



## Soundbed

video of the above for good measure, PLUS MSS playing the same part of BSB.

so:

comparing and contrasting MSS extended legato sul tasto to Berlin Special Bows legato sul tasto using violins and violas, while MSS arco plays the cellos and basses (an octave below, on "bloom")


----------



## Soundbed

So in short @Nimrod7 if you already own MSS main and Berlin Special Bows, the MSS Extended legato is only going to sound slightly different in the Sul Tasto for violins and violas. I’m a little surprised because I usually love Teldex and orchestral tools but I think I prefer the MSS slightly in these examples. There’s something about it that feels more expressive. ymmv

The workflow is easy enough for both (together), but if you are already writing with MSS and decide to add the Extended Legato to the template then the workflow should be extremely easy — and with the v1.2 legato updates things should gel quite nicely.


----------



## Vik

Here's how the Sul Tasto cellos sound (old portato demo) in Berlin Strings EXP B.



Is there a demo of similar stuff in MSS somewhere?


----------



## Nimrod7

Soundbed said:


> if you already own MSS main and Berlin Special Bows, the MSS Extended legato is only going to sound slightly different in the Sul Tasto for violins and violas. I’m a little surprised because I usually love Teldex and orchestral tools but I think I prefer the MSS slightly in these examples.


Hey Soundbed, thanks for all the effort recording the videos, and doing the comparisons! You have my gratitude (my wallet's also!).

It gave me a very good idea what to expect! I hope I can get my GAS under control since extended legato is showing $200 in my AudioBro account, which is not bad at all.

Again many thanks!


----------



## GNP

lettucehat said:


>



This Lookahead feature should be implemented by NATIVE INSTRUMENTS KONTAKT ITSELF, so it can work for ALL libraries lol


----------



## Casiquire

GNP said:


> This Lookahead feature should be implemented by NATIVE INSTRUMENTS KONTAKT ITSELF, so it can work for ALL libraries lol


I think the big issue is different libraries will have different speeds for different articulations 😔 so the dev really needs to be the one to do it. But i do dream of a future where lookahead is built into just about everything seamlessly


----------



## Soundbed

Vik said:


> Here's how the Sul Tasto cellos sound (old portato demo) in Berlin Strings EXP B.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a demo of similar stuff in MSS somewhere?



by request, here you go!





Note: I labeled the track cellos "A" although most of the time this was recorded with both A and B except for the section around measure 30. It might look confusing because I edited the screencast ... until measure 30 both Cellos A and B should have been playing. And then after that one section I turn Cellos B back on again for the remainder.


----------



## Soundbed

For the above video;

In the lower register, they are pretty close.

The MSS Release Triggers (RT button) are a little longer than the BSB short Portato though.

For most of this experiment I turned OFF RT and turned ON the Custom Envelope with a Release Length of about 685ms to resemble the Berlin Special Bows video.

In the higher register, MSS Arco sounds a little more like the BSB Portato shorts.

But the MSS Sul Tasto is nice and wispy / breathy / soft.

Some folks might want to "denoise" MSS a bit esp Cellos B in the higher register because it seems to have been recording very soft sounds.

You can also play with the attacks (Cresc, Norm, Accent) — they each sound slightly different.

Note Molto Vibrato was on the whole time as well.


----------



## Vik

That’s very helpful, Soundbed! 🙏


----------



## fantasy sound

hmm...I updated MSS to v1.2 and loaded several patches from my Logic templates I created before, but the look ahead button didn't show up on the panel, while loading patches directly from Kontakt patch browser just works fine (the button appears where it should). 
Am I missing something?


----------



## samplin

fantasy sound said:


> hmm...I updated MSS to v1.2 and loaded several patches from my Logic templates I created before, but the look ahead button didn't show up on the panel, while loading patches directly from Kontakt patch browser just works fine (the button appears where it should).
> Am I missing something?


This happened to me… I just restarted logic and vepro


----------



## fantasy sound

samplin said:


> This happened to me… I just restarted logic and vepro


Did that fix the issue on your side? I restarted mac and logic too but failed to fix it...


----------



## Living Fossil

@fantasy sound : you will have to reassign the new version (1.2) in Kontakt. 
The issue is described and explained in the audiobro forum.


----------



## fantasy sound

Living Fossil said:


> @fantasy sound : you will have to reassign the new version (1.2) in Kontakt.
> The issue is described and explained in the audiobro forum.


So, I have to open Kontakt and change each saved patch from 1.1 to 1.2 one by one. I'll do it later, thanks for the info


----------



## novaburst

Don't know if I am mistaken, but some times even in cubase I get things missing from the interface but when it's assigned to its midi channel in the DAW it all appears and comes alive if that makes sense


----------



## novaburst

fantasy sound said:


> So, I have to open Kontakt and change each saved patch from 1.1 to 1.2 one by one. I'll do it later, thanks for the info


The new update will automatically find your existing installation and path in the download center and will update the old files or over write, no need to open one by one .


----------



## fantasy sound

novaburst said:


> The new update will automatically find your existing installation and path in the download center and will update the old files or over write, no need to open one by one .


Oh that's good news for me, thanks! Then I'll wait for it.


----------



## VSriHarsha

[email protected] said:


> Quick question: I re-installed the update to make sure everything will work - but I still run into some issues. I want to load all divisi sections separately to root them easily to individual channels and outputs. I now have two different "split"-folders. Am I right that the one with the space in front of the name is the new/updated one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't really make sure because the UI is still broken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tried to use the repair-method suggested by Spitfire here, but I can't find a "script" folder in my _Modern-Scoring-Strings_-folder: https://spitfireaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204908126-White-GUI-in-Kontakt
> 
> So what can I do to get the UI right and finally use this stuff?


I think it can be solved if get outt session & log back in. I mean delete the instrument from Kontakt, close your DAW, get back in & load the instrument back that works.


----------



## RonV

Update 1.2.1 is now available for MSS. Minor fix for ostinati sync, I believe.


----------



## MusicalWhiskey

ljtaylor80 said:


> Can anyone help me figure out why MSS makes Cubase 11 take forever to save and even longer to actually close down? Projects with MSS loaded save and close quickly. The more instances I have of MSS, the longer it takes for these processes. Am I missing something?


Same with logic. I really don’t mind though.


----------



## Casiquire

I finally got to play with the Extended Legato update and I'm really liking it a lot actually. Set a negative delay of 400ms, pencil in the notes, and it just sounds great when played back. I think the legato sounds fantastic and natural when using slower, less "cut-in" settings. 

I've already settled on getting Berlin Strings next time they're on sale so i have a very tough decision ahead on whether to grab MSS before the crossgrade price ends!


----------



## MusicalWhiskey

Has anybody else noticed that, apart from the Extended Legatos, this string library often needs way less mod wheel data to sound convincing? I use the DAW integration and it has totally changed my workflow. I often use so many different custom articulations that any mod wheel data is either unnecessary or possibly even damaging to the performance that the engine is attempting to piece together (with all the different transitions between articulations)....


----------



## Soundbed

MusicalWhiskey said:


> Has anybody else noticing that, apart from the Extended Legatos, this string library often needs way less mod wheel data to sound convincing? I use the DAW integration and it has totally changed my workflow. I often use so many different custom articulations that any mod wheel data is either unnecessary or possibly even damaging to the performance that the engine is attempting to piece together (with all the different transitions between articulations)....


I feel like it makes more sense. Years of watching videos of people ride the mod wheel for every transition never made much sense to me.


----------



## Casiquire

MusicalWhiskey said:


> Has anybody else noticing that, apart from the Extended Legatos, this string library often needs way less mod wheel data to sound convincing? I use the DAW integration and it has totally changed my workflow. I often use so many different custom articulations that any mod wheel data is either unnecessary or possibly even damaging to the performance that the engine is attempting to piece together (with all the different transitions between articulations)....


That's one reason i was specific to mention "pencil in" when i made my comment because i don't feel the need to play in extra expression. I think you're exactly right. Especially with a library this complex and with this many features and articulations, while the library is "playable" for sure, i think taking full advantage of all of has to offer makes playing everything in impossible


----------



## biomuse

Casiquire said:


> That's one reason i was specific to mention "pencil in" when i made my comment because i don't feel the need to play in extra expression. I think you're exactly right. Especially with a library this complex and with this many features and articulations, while the library is "playable" for sure, i think taking full advantage of all of has to offer makes playing everything in impossible


Question: Do you feel this is so about the sustiains of notes specifically, as opposed to their attacks/releases?

It‘s definitely so with LASS but, even with a more recent library such as e.g., Elite, with the new attack/release variety options, I still feel as though the center of the notes require CC contouring or they sound unrealistically static. Which is not a complaint, since I think it’s this sensitivity to CC changes that allows expressive contouring and therefore flexibility. 

I’m also in an almighty struggle over whether to get MSS before the full LASS owner discount expires. I adore the Audiobro approach overall, love the features and Andrew and Sebastian’s dev attitudes. Just not sure whether the “Big Zimmer” ensemble sound fits where I’m going, vs. solo, small or smallish ensembles such as Elite or an upcoming LASS 3 revamp. 

Were the full suite of MSS features available for its solo instruments (i.e., ostinatos, extended legato, aleatoric etc.) I’d have already purchased it long ago.


----------



## Casiquire

biomuse said:


> Question: Do you feel this is so about the sustiains of notes specifically, as opposed to their attacks/releases?
> 
> It‘s definitely so with LASS but, even with a more recent library such as e.g., Elite, with the new attack/release variety options, I still feel as though the center of the notes require CC contouring or they sound unrealistically static. Which is not a complaint, since I think it’s this sensitivity to CC changes that allows expressive contouring and therefore flexibility.
> 
> I’m also in an almighty struggle over whether to get MSS before the full LASS owner discount expires. I adore the Audiobro approach overall, love the features and Andrew and Sebastian’s dev attitudes. Just not sure whether the “Big Zimmer” ensemble sound fits where I’m going, vs. solo, small or smallish ensembles such as Elite or an upcoming LASS 3 revamp.
> 
> Were the full suite of MSS features available for its solo instruments (i.e., ostinatos, extended legato, aleatoric etc.) I’d have already purchased it long ago.



That's up to you. With bloom, there's a little too much movement actually, i need to dial the bloom level back a lot before i feel like it's no longer dramatically shifting the dynamics. Fortunately that's a super easy CC dial or you can set it and forget it in the interface. 

The bloom seems to affect the legato as well. I think the legato with bloom is much more flowing and natural even when the bloom effect is dialed back a bit. The standard legato is a little more strident and takes some CC movement if you want it to sound more in motion. And as much as I've nit picked about the rebow, it actually does ring true in context.

Curious if anyone knows whether same-note rebow was sampled for the extended library because when i hit the key the sound drops to almost nothing and then starts up again. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.


----------



## dzilizzi

I'm wondering if I should wait for the next sale. My FOMO/GAS really wants this now, but I really don't need it. I don't have LASS, so it is just the intro price. But I would hate if it went lower in a sale in the next 2 years. But I really like what they've done with it and how responsive they have been. 

Plus I think we may need to replace the A/C soon. It is not handling this 110° F heat too well. (43° C) It's a little old, so not unexpected.


----------



## Soundbed

biomuse said:


> Elite, with the new attack/release variety options, I still feel as though the center of the notes require CC contouring or they sound unrealistically static


Elite still needs mod wheel to feel alive imho. 

MSS does too but for phrase arcs more than every. little. transition.


----------



## Casiquire

Sigh. I did it. We knew it was likely to happen. But the thing that finally pushed me over the edge was how similar the sound was to some string scores I've heard on TV shows, and the fact that these seem perfect for hybrid, synth, rock, pop, etc and i need something that will blend in those situations but will also stand out in the mix. My experience with the Extended Legato update was very positive.

I'm not a strong man


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> Sigh. I did it. We knew it was likely to happen. But the thing that finally pushed me over the edge was how similar the sound was to some string scores I've heard on TV shows, and the fact that these seem perfect for hybrid, synth, rock, pop, etc and i need something that will blend in those situations but will also stand out in the mix. My experience with the Extended Legato update was very positive.
> 
> I'm not a strong man


Welcome to the club and congratulations.


----------



## doctoremmet

Casiquire said:


> Sigh. I did it. We knew it was likely to happen. But the thing that finally pushed me over the edge was how similar the sound was to some string scores I've heard on TV shows, and the fact that these seem perfect for hybrid, synth, rock, pop, etc and i need something that will blend in those situations but will also stand out in the mix. My experience with the Extended Legato update was very positive.
> 
> I'm not a strong man


You are a weak man. Unfortunately for another weak man I know, he has grown very confident about how your taste seems very congruent to his own... I hear he now seems very interested in this package himself too...


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> Welcome to the club and congratulations.


Your videos were very helpful. I could tell how well the sound would blend into the kind of work i do which is NOT film scoring, and libraries like CSS can get swallowed up whole.


----------



## Casiquire

doctoremmet said:


> You are a weak man. Unfortunately for another weak man I know, he has grown very confident about how your taste seems very congruent to his own... I hear he now seems very interested in this package himself too...


I'm so sorry!


----------



## doctoremmet

Casiquire said:


> I'm so sorry!


Don’t be. It’s cool to have certain trusted members on here, whose opinions you know matter


----------



## Evans

doctoremmet said:


> Don’t be. It’s cool to have certain trusted members on here, whose opinions you know matter


Yep! I've got mine. Maybe a few people, actually, but there's one person in particular for me. If that person _really _favors a library, I'm going to end up very happy with it despite wildly different backgrounds and different usage.


----------



## Casiquire

Truth be told i was VERY nervous about this purchase. Now that it's in my hands i wonder if it's one of the more underrated libraries out there? Granted i think the release was rushed, and as far as i know it's entirely possible that it wasn't quite up to the VI-police standards upon release, but this thing is glorious right now. Cut out the close mics and it sounds almost symphonic even without reverb. 

There are some caveats so far. The performances really shine when Lookahead is enabled. When they're not, there are a few questionable legatos (looking at you, Violin 1 section B). But with Lookahead the library is like silk. I'm ready to take the heat for this comment: this is the first library to handle a long delay well...so much so that it one-ups CSS in that respect. I know, shock and horror that someone would say such a thing, but it's absolutely true. When you turn on Lookahead and just play on the keyboard, there is *little to no* delay and we get those questionable legatos occasionally (though most still sound good). But then once you begin playback, the software recognizes that it's playback, and adjusts everything to the same delay with great true to life legato and in-time shorts, at least in reaper. This is how it's done! Play on the keyboard with no delay and then play back better quality without having to hit any buttons.

The quality of the sound is very good too. I have resaved all the patches with no EQ or effects and with Bloom turned almost all the way down. This gets some nice results. i do think there's light noise around 3.2-3.5khz or somewhere thereabouts. A light dynamic eq cut in that range seems to result in a very good sound.

With bloom and molto vibrato, the library is plenty expressive in a way that i haven't seen reflected in the demos. I assume they were written using older versions. From what I'm seeing this library took a roller coaster ride from overhyped to underdelivered to underrated. I can see this replacing LASS and i may change my mind about grabbing BS. i just don't think I'm missing anything anymore


----------



## Alex Sopala

Casiquire said:


> Truth be told i was VERY nervous about this purchase. Now that it's in my hands i wonder if it's one of the more underrated libraries out there? Granted i think the release was rushed, and as far as i know it's entirely possible that it wasn't quite up to the VI-police standards upon release, but this thing is glorious right now. Cut out the close mics and it sounds almost symphonic even without reverb.
> 
> There are some caveats so far. The performances really shine when Lookahead is enabled. When they're not, there are a few questionable legatos (looking at you, Violin 1 section B). But with Lookahead the library is like silk. I'm ready to take the heat for this comment: this is the first library to handle a long delay well...so much so that it one-ups CSS in that respect. I know, shock and horror that someone would say such a thing, but it's absolutely true. When you turn on Lookahead and just play on the keyboard, there is *little to no* delay and we get those questionable legatos occasionally (though most still sound good). But then once you begin playback, the software recognizes that it's playback, and adjusts everything to the same delay with great true to life legato and in-time shorts, at least in reaper. This is how it's done! Play on the keyboard with no delay and then play back better quality without having to hit any buttons.
> 
> The quality of the sound is very good too. I have resaved all the patches with no EQ or effects and with Bloom turned almost all the way down. This gets some nice results. i do think there's light noise around 3.2-3.5khz or somewhere thereabouts. A light dynamic eq cut in that range seems to result in a very good sound.
> 
> With bloom and molto vibrato, the library is plenty expressive in a way that i haven't seen reflected in the demos. I assume they were written using older versions. From what I'm seeing this library took a roller coaster ride from overhyped to underdelivered to underrated. I can see this replacing LASS and i may change my mind about grabbing BS. i just don't think I'm missing anything anymore


Out of curiosity (and because 225 pages is a lot to go through), how would you say it compares to LASS? The functionality of MSS looks really appealing, but LASS just has that "bite" I love about it being really crisp. I know that's down to the close micing, but is that a sound you find possible to achieve in MSS? Not to mention if it has that dryness (I tend to do symphonic metal as my thing, and being able to manipulate the reverbs and blending together different libraries is HUGE for me).


----------



## Wunderhorn

Alex Sopala said:


> Out of curiosity (and because 225 pages is a lot to go through), how would you say it compares to LASS? The functionality of MSS looks really appealing, but LASS just has that "bite" I love about it being really crisp. I know that's down to the close micing, but is that a sound you find possible to achieve in MSS? Not to mention if it has that dryness (I tend to do symphonic metal as my thing, and being able to manipulate the reverbs and blending together different libraries is HUGE for me).


It comes down to what sound you prefer. LASS definitely is on the crisper side and if you like that, there is LASS 3.0 coming supposedly later this year.
MSS has more articulations and options to shape and control the sound (e.g. ostinati and runs). I personally like MSS and it replaces LASS for me in the majority of situations but I still keep certain LASS articulations close at hand.


----------



## Casiquire

Alex Sopala said:


> Out of curiosity (and because 225 pages is a lot to go through), how would you say it compares to LASS? The functionality of MSS looks really appealing, but LASS just has that "bite" I love about it being really crisp. I know that's down to the close micing, but is that a sound you find possible to achieve in MSS? Not to mention if it has that dryness (I tend to do symphonic metal as my thing, and being able to manipulate the reverbs and blending together different libraries is HUGE for me).


It's not going to be quite as bright as LASS, but nothing ever will be lol! But i don't anticipate any trouble fitting them in a mix, even a busy one. I'm liking the softer sound of the more distant mics right now but the close has more of that detail


----------



## novaburst

Casiquire said:


> i think the release was rushed,


Perhaps this was the case as the update has changed the library's vibe completely, the library has become one of the most capable library's to date,

With so much tweaking also available to the user,
You can easily tell that string library's are ABs strong point, and they come through when delivering such a library the library really excels 
The more you use it the more it offers .


----------



## Casiquire

novaburst said:


> Perhaps this was the case as the update has changed the library's vibe completely, the library has become one of the most capable library's to date,
> 
> With so much tweaking also available to the user,
> You can easily tell that string library's are ABs strong point, and they come through when delivering such a library the library really excels
> The more you use it the more it offers .


Did you have the original release version? It used to be very different? That's the impression I'm getting


----------



## novaburst

Casiquire said:


> Did you have the original release version? It used to be very different? That's the impression I'm getting


The original release was fine but as you said I think deep down in your gut you had a sense it was born a little immature, and needed some nutrition,

So if you like the first release had good teeth but now it has long sharp fangs after the update

The library has a completness about it or a great sense of satisfaction and appreciation,

So what AB has developed in the update both expanded and the main library course you to have a different approach or not use the library in the same manner as before but in a very positive way


----------



## clonewar

Casiquire said:


> With bloom and molto vibrato, the library is plenty expressive in a way that i haven't seen reflected in the demos.


Are there any demos or walkthroughs out there that showcase the more expressive sound with heavier bloom and vibrato?


----------



## biomuse

Casiquire said:


> It's not going to be quite as bright as LASS, but nothing ever will be lol! But i don't anticipate any trouble fitting them in a mix, even a busy one. I'm liking the softer sound of the more distant mics right now but the close has more of that detail


Just to ask you to clarify - you find you prefer the far mics artistically; but you're not repulsed or pushed away from the close mic signal by any perceived defect? (I'm asking b/c it's the close mics I'm likely to lean most heavily on.)


----------



## Dopplereffect

clonewar said:


> Are there any demos or walkthroughs out there that showcase the more expressive sound with heavier bloom and vibrato?


----------



## Casiquire

biomuse said:


> Just to ask you to clarify - you find you prefer the far mics artistically; but you're not repulsed or pushed away from the close mic signal by any perceived defect? (I'm asking b/c it's the close mics I'm likely to lean most heavily on.)


Correct, I'm trying to see how well it can blend with my Berlin wind and brass tree mics and the balance is pretty good using the more distant mics. I haven't heard anything bad whatsoever from the close mics though.



clonewar said:


> Are there any demos or walkthroughs out there that showcase the more expressive sound with heavier bloom and vibrato?


Really just what we see in the updated legato video on YouTube and a couple other posts such as Sounbed's reviews. There's not much of that content out there.

Another thing i found was that the basses sound too loud sometimes but in other passages they sound fine. I noticed that the dynamic range for the basses is set much lower than the rest of the library by default. Maybe basses have a natural dB range difference, but I've found that matching their dynamic range to the rest of the library sounds really good and natural


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> the dynamic range for the basses is set much lower than the rest of the library by default


you're right! I hadn't noticed that. no wonder they seem louder sometimes. for others; to adjust this click the gear / cog below and to the right of the main mod wheel control; adjust the "Volume Range" amount to a higher dB value.

yes, there are several interesting choices "under the hood" with the defaults.

the basses also have the close mics enabled by default (which is unusual relative to the other presets).

psa: it's worth trying the other snapshots and/or saving your own as soon as you learn enough features ... the defaults are not always what everyone would choose. but the engine is so flexible, you can customize it really easily.



clonewar said:


> Are there any demos or walkthroughs out there that showcase the more expressive sound with heavier bloom and vibrato?


not sure if you've already seen these two — they are cued up with this link to go directly to the 1.1 legato using Molto (before the 1.2 lookahead update) and then immediately goes into a mostly Bloom example. the 2nd one also has some re-bows (the lowest notes in the piano roll).




they are short because I write them knowing I cannot very well sign them to my publishers (because most of my pubs prefer exclusive work rather than stuff I've made public on YouTube)


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> you're right! I hadn't noticed that. no wonder they seem louder sometimes. for others; to adjust this click the gear / cog below and to the right of the main mod wheel control; adjust the "Volume Range" amount to a higher dB value.
> 
> yes, there are several interesting choices "under the hood" with the defaults.
> 
> the basses also have the close mics enabled by default (which is unusual relative to the other presets).
> 
> psa: it's worth trying the other snapshots and/or saving your own as soon as you learn enough features ... the defaults are not always what everyone would choose. but the engine is so flexible, you can customize it really easily.
> 
> 
> not sure if you've already seen these two — they are cued up with this link to go directly to the 1.1 legato using Molto (before the 1.2 lookahead update) and then immediately goes into a mostly Bloom example. the 2nd one also has some re-bows (the lowest notes in the piano roll).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they are short because I write them knowing I cannot very well sign them to my publishers (because most of my pubs prefer exclusive work rather than stuff I've made public on YouTube)



I wonder if these discrepancies with the basses are related to some of the criticisms the library received for its sound. I could see how having an unusually loud and close sounding bass could contribute to a strange impression of the room. I think all the defaults are wrong and when i pare everything down to the raw sound and settings consistent for everyone across the board, the sound is much better.


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> when i pare everything down to the raw sound and settings consistent for everyone across the board, the sound is much better.


yes I generally like switching almost everything off and starting from the stage mics.


----------



## samplin

Soundbed said:


> yes I generally like switching almost everything off and starting from the stage mics.


I use Mir pro ( not everyones cup of tea I know) but I have all my libraries in it to blend and it works for me. I'm using MSS on my first project with the close mics only with a little Mir room and its sounding pretty good so far. I also turned off the auto legato and that seems to help at the moment too. It's quite a delicate piece and classical and the divisi and norm/bowed arts sound amazing for phrasing.


----------



## Soundbed

samplin said:


> I use Mir pro ( not everyones cup of tea I know) but I have all my libraries in it to blend and it works for me. I'm using MSS on my first project with the close mics only with a little Mir room and its sounding pretty good so far. I also turned off the auto legato and that seems to help at the moment too. It's quite a delicate piece and classical and the divisi and norm/bowed arts sound amazing for phrasing.


That’s great to hear! Yeah Mir and Cinematic Rooms are two products I’ve heard great things about and haven’t explored yet. I currently use R4.


----------



## JM Composer

Given that there are 2 days left for the loyalty discount on MSS, and I'm right on the fence about purchasing, just wanted to ask: 

What's your opinion on the sound of rebowing on the same note when you hold down the sustain pedal? 

None of my current libraries do this convincingly. I'd be writing this lyrical melody and all sounds good until I have a point where I want adjacent notes to be the same note, and I want them legato. There'd be a gap in the sound between the two notes, even when I make the notes touch one another in the piano roll. The note to note (same note) should sound quite continuous, even as you hear the "attack" in the change of bow.


----------



## Casiquire

JM Composer said:


> Given that there are 2 days left for the loyalty discount on MSS, and I'm right on the fence about purchasing, just wanted to ask:
> 
> What's your opinion on the sound of rebowing on the same note when you hold down the sustain pedal?
> 
> None of my current libraries do this convincingly. I'd be writing this lyrical melody and all sounds good until I have a point where I want adjacent notes to be the same note, and I want them legato. There'd be a gap in the sound between the two notes, even when I make the notes touch one another in the piano roll. The note to note (same note) should sound quite continuous, even as you hear the "attack" in the change of bow.


I'm not sure about when holding the pedal, but it uses a Repeat key A-1 which is used for same note and to me it sounds pretty good, subtle (as it should be), and pretty natural to me. Definitely subtle though


----------



## Soundbed

JM Composer said:


> What's your opinion on the sound of rebowing on the same note when you hold down the sustain pedal?


This stuff is a bit subjective... but here is a video where I played some parts with repeating notes. So you can decide.



I also added a bunch of shorts by request.

(The video will finish uploading in about 20 minutes...)


----------



## Noc

Soundbed said:


> (The video will finish uploading in about 20 minutes...)


Yegads, is this video 6 hours long? I’ve been periodically checking in to watch it since you posted that link and it’s still “processing” almost four hours later. 

EDIT: All right, it finally finished. Weirdly long wait for just a 20-minute video, but that’s technology for ya.


----------



## Soundbed

Noc said:


> Yegads, is this video 6 hours long? I’ve been periodically checking in to watch it since you posted that link and it’s still “processing” almost four hours later.
> 
> EDIT: All right, it finally finished. Weirdly long wait for just a 20-minute video, but that’s technology for ya.


Weird, it said it would only be 20 minutes. Not sure why it took so long.


----------



## Noc

Soundbed said:


> Weird, it said it would only be 20 minutes. Not sure why it took so long.


In fairness, I forgot to check for a couple hours after posting that, and only just realized it was now available.


----------



## Soundbed

Here's the chapter listing and my summary:

In this video we demonstrate some Repeated Notes and put the Short Notes through their paces. Modern Scoring Strings by AudioBro. This video was not sponsored. I made this video to explore the library myself. Hope this helps others in some small way.

For the repeated notes, I left Release Triggers on, in case that makes a difference. I detected some timing differences between divisi A and B especially in the violins. You can decide if they sound natural or "realistic" to you. 

There are so many ways to explore the short notes. In general I found Slam adds definition and accent, Marcato smoothes out the dynamics. Slam and Marcato together almost nullify each other (not really, but together they seem to add more accent with a reduced, smoothed out dynamic range). The combination of Tighten with Auto on or manually adjusted, with the mic positions and the divisi means there's tons of shorts to choose from, and adding Humanization (especially for tuning) really makes the variations quite usable in my opinion. You may have different opinions. 

0:00 Repeating notes (rebows) 
2:00 Shorts Viola 
6:23 Shorts Cellos 
10:26 Shorts Violins 2 
12:49 Shorts Violins 1 
14:12 Shorts Cellos (again) 
19:15 Shorts Basses 
20:24 Shorts All


----------



## JM Composer

Soundbed said:


> Here's the chapter listing and my summary:
> 
> In this video we demonstrate some Repeated Notes and put the Short Notes through their paces. Modern Scoring Strings by AudioBro. This video was not sponsored. I made this video to explore the library myself. Hope this helps others in some small way.
> 
> For the repeated notes, I left Release Triggers on, in case that makes a difference. I detected some timing differences between divisi A and B especially in the violins. You can decide if they sound natural or "realistic" to you.
> 
> There are so many ways to explore the short notes. In general I found Slam adds definition and accent, Marcato smoothes out the dynamics. Slam and Marcato together almost nullify each other (not really, but together they seem to add more accent with a reduced, smoothed out dynamic range). The combination of Tighten with Auto on or manually adjusted, with the mic positions and the divisi means there's tons of shorts to choose from, and adding Humanization (especially for tuning) really makes the variations quite usable in my opinion. You may have different opinions.
> 
> 0:00 Repeating notes (rebows)
> 2:00 Shorts Viola
> 6:23 Shorts Cellos
> 10:26 Shorts Violins 2
> 12:49 Shorts Violins 1
> 14:12 Shorts Cellos (again)
> 19:15 Shorts Basses
> 20:24 Shorts All


Thanks Casiquire and Soundbed. Your answers were helpful. Also thanks alot for taking the time to make the video. I'm now planning to purchase this library.


----------



## dzilizzi

My FOMO/GAS is getting bad. @Soundbed is like one of those drug dealers with his great videos of this. "See how good you will feel after getting this?????" There's a part of me that really wants this.

I think my big concern is that I heard that MSB went to half off on sale about a year after. I know me, I probably won't really use this for at least a year, after the initial play. Plus LASS full is on sale for $399, which is very tempting too. I'm not sure if I need to be talked into or out of.....


----------



## Casiquire

dzilizzi said:


> My FOMO/GAS is getting bad. @Soundbed is like one of those drug dealers with his great videos of this. "See how good you will feel after getting this?????" There's a part of me that really wants this.
> 
> I think my big concern is that I heard that MSB went to half off on sale about a year after. I know me, I probably won't really use this for at least a year, after the initial play. Plus LASS full is on sale for $399, which is very tempting too. I'm not sure if I need to be talked into or out of.....


While LASS is one of my favorites, MSS is both more versatile and has a better sound. If you had to go with one or the other, there's little that LASS delivers on but MSS doesn't. Much of the overlap is delivered better in MSS


----------



## dzilizzi

Casiquire said:


> While LASS is one of my favorites, MSS is both more versatile and has a better sound. If you had to go with one or the other, there's little that LASS delivers on but MSS doesn't. Much of the overlap is delivered better in MSS


Thank you, that helps.


----------



## Thonex

Regarding the Dynamic Range differences since v1.0, that would have been my doing  You know how it is... with anything in life really... perspective is a great test. I found some of the dynamics needed a little tweaking to sing better... and not hide the lower dynamics so much. I think I will be doing a video on the Dynamics editor (cog) since I think it's REALLY important. I'm a CC1 + CC11 kind of guy, but I know a lot of people want everything on 1 CC (even to niente), so maybe a video is a good thing to do.

Also, thanks to everyone for the kind and warm words. We work hard to raise the standards of everything we do.

Cheers,

Andrew K


----------



## TeamLeader

Thonex said:


> Regarding the Dynamic Range differences since v1.0, that would have been my doing  You know how it is... with anything in life really... perspective is a great test. I found some of the dynamics needed a little tweaking to sing better... and not hide the lower dynamics so much. I think I will be doing a video on the Dynamics editor (cog) since I think it's REALLY important. I'm a CC1 + CC11 kind of guy, but I know a lot of people want everything on 1 CC (even to niente), so maybe a video is a good thing to do.
> 
> Also, thanks to everyone for the kind and warm words. We work hard to raise the standards of everything we do.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andrew K


Thank you Andrew. I very much love your video idea. Just like you did with LASS, MSS is cutting soooo much new ground for those of us in the trenches. You and Sebastion and hugely appreciated.


----------



## PeterMaze

Hey All,

first of all, it's great to be here, and thanks for the opportunity to be part of this great community!

Here is my short MSS test session. As you'll hear, shorts are sounding ok, but I struggle with the legato phrases for the 1st violins at the end. They sound rather 'sticky' and unrealistic (i'm doubling the normal 1st violins with the Intuition Series, and Solo Violins already, as on their own they sounded even worse).
Any advice on how to make them sound more realistic? Also... any other advice on programming MSS?


----------



## samplin

Sounds very good! Well done…
In the last section the phrase repeats the same note which is always a little problematic with all string libraries… how are you doing this? Are you using the repeat key? Or programming it ?


----------



## Casiquire

PeterMaze said:


> Hey All,
> 
> first of all, it's great to be here, and thanks for the opportunity to be part of this great community!
> 
> Here is my short MSS test session. As you'll hear, shorts are sounding ok, but I struggle with the legato phrases for the 1st violins at the end. They sound rather 'sticky' and unrealistic (i'm doubling the normal 1st violins with the Intuition Series, and Solo Violins already, as on their own they sounded even worse).
> Any advice on how to make them sound more realistic? Also... any other advice on programming MSS?


I'm sorry I'm not at my computer and can't get into a ton of detail, but i like the whole first part and can hear what you mean at the end. My first thought is, I'm not sure I'd use a legato at all at the end. Maybe a marcato mixed with sustains. Has anyone played around with the old LASS trick of shortening a portamento transition down to nothing? I've found it useful for getting rid of the swell at the start of legato notes and think it could be useful for an immediate transition that's still very smooth and connected


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> the old LASS trick of shortening a portamento transition down to nothing


I think I had a video with that a while back (?) but it always sounded like a port in MSS if I’m not mistaken.


----------



## [email protected]

Hi, all, I've got a short question: Are the Scale-parts also available without the accented target note? Because if I want to stitch those parts together to get an individual run, there is also a heavy "weight" when the target note and the start note of the following scale overlap.


----------



## PeterMaze

Casiquire said:


> I'm sorry I'm not at my computer and can't get into a ton of detail, but i like the whole first part and can hear what you mean at the end. My first thought is, I'm not sure I'd use a legato at all at the end. Maybe a marcato mixed with sustains. Has anyone played around with the old LASS trick of shortening a portamento transition down to nothing? I've found it useful for getting rid of the swell at the start of legato notes and think it could be useful for an immediate transition that's still very smooth and connected


Hey Casiquire,
I've redone the second (legato) part which sounded odd before. I'm still using legato, but using the 'bowed' technique with molto. Changed the dynamics around a bit and I think it helped. But what I think helped the most is that I layered up (quietly) the 2nd chair violins from LASS (Xtra Vln 2nd Chair Leg Sus). It helped to gel notes together --- probably a bit too much 

Thoughts?


----------



## PeterMaze

samplin said:


> Sounds very good! Well done…
> In the last section the phrase repeats the same note which is always a little problematic with all string libraries… how are you doing this? Are you using the repeat key? Or programming it ?


Thanks Samplin,
I was using a lot of programming (switching between shorts and legato). Probably too many, and/or bad choices. Now I'm sticking with legato (bowed) on the 1st violins, and trying to add detail using the solo violin from MSS, and a bit of gel from LASS 2nd chair Xtra violins -- please check the updated version


----------



## Soundbed

[email protected] said:


> Hi, all, I've got a short question: Are the Scale-parts also available without the accented target note? Because if I want to stitch those parts together to get an individual run, there is also a heavy "weight" when the target note and the start note of the following scale overlap.


Yes you can stitch them together as I recall. Not at the computer at the moment.


----------



## Dopplereffect

[email protected] said:


> Hi, all, I've got a short question: Are the Scale-parts also available without the accented target note? Because if I want to stitch those parts together to get an individual run, there is also a heavy "weight" when the target note and the start note of the following scale overlap.


You can reduce the accent with the "smooth"-button:

EDIT: Soundbed rightfully added below that you must uncheck the "accent"-button to the right to achieve this. So if you uncheck that button and dial the "smooth"-button all the way up you can string scale parts together quite convincingly.

And also: Where it says "16th Diatonic" there's a drop down menu which allows you to choose different "behaviors" for the scales a couple of which doing the stringing together of the scale parts for you (e.g. "octave runs", "start-end", the "diatonic hold" and the "chromatic hold"


----------



## Soundbed

Dopplereffect said:


> You can reduce the accent with the "smooth"-button:


You can also uncheck the Accent button right ?


----------



## Casiquire

PeterMaze said:


> Hey Casiquire,
> I've redone the second (legato) part which sounded odd before. I'm still using legato, but using the 'bowed' technique with molto. Changed the dynamics around a bit and I think it helped. But what I think helped the most is that I layered up (quietly) the 2nd chair violins from LASS (Xtra Vln 2nd Chair Leg Sus). It helped to gel notes together --- probably a bit too much
> 
> Thoughts?


Actually i think that's a pretty good sound. If i had to use a legato patch, the bowed would've been my choice too. I have a hard time telling how much of what I'm hearing is LASS so that's a good sign. It does seem to brighten up right at that point but it sounds like a louder dynamic so it should brighten up a bit. I still might tame it slightly but that's personal preference.


----------



## Dopplereffect

Soundbed said:


> You can also uncheck the Accent button right ?


Yep!


----------



## prodigalson

Just wanted to write a note that I find the lookahead feature to be a genuine game changer and changes this library from being pretty good to basically best in class. 

Im working on a project where I have a string quartet that's well recorded but recorded in a fairly close, dry set up. I've been trying all of my libraries to find the best match to enhance the sound and had issues with everything until I tried MSS. As soon as I turned off all the default processing (in addition to a silky verb, it comes with an EQ profile called "smoothing") I was shocked at just how dry and detailed the sound became and how it instantly blended with the live quartet to the extent that I generally coulnd't even tell when the live strings were present or not. 

I recorded in all the parts, and generally the legato held up well on performance. Then turned on lookahead, set the track delay and holy shit, my jaw hit the floor. what they've done is incredible. The engine just dealt with every legato speed and transition flawlessly and honestly playing back the MIDI along with the live strings, I genuinely couldnt tell what was real and what was live. 

This will be the library I use for all detailed, dry-stage string needs that I have. It's not the most stunning tone in the world but boy is it flexible and shockingly well-programmed and edited. 

The lookahead is like CSS but where you can turn on and off the legato delay as you please and don't have to deal with the extreme vibrato and baked in trackdown sound if you don't like it.


----------



## [email protected]

Dopplereffect said:


> You can reduce the accent with the "smooth"-button:
> 
> EDIT: Soundbed rightfully added below that you must uncheck the "accent"-button to the right to achieve this. So if you uncheck that button and dial the "smooth"-button all the way up you can string scale parts together quite convincingly.
> 
> And also: Where it says "16th Diatonic" there's a drop down menu which allows you to choose different "behaviors" for the scales a couple of which doing the stringing together of the scale parts for you (e.g. "octave runs", "start-end", the "diatonic hold" and the "chromatic hold"


Thank you very much! Also to @Soundbed! I already played around with the settings and was searching for a version that doesn't have the last note repeated but I think I will have to work around this with the accent then.

I guess that the "Octave Runs" and "Start-End" features are "prestitched" versions of the scales fragments, right?


----------



## Dopplereffect

[email protected] said:


> Thank you very much! Also to @Soundbed! I already played around with the settings and was searching for a version that doesn't have the last note repeated but I think I will have to work around this with the accent then.
> 
> I guess that the "Octave Runs" and "Start-End" features are "prestitched" versions of the scales fragments, right?


That's right, but there's also the actual octave-runs patch and that is an actual octave run which was recorded in its entirety.


----------



## Soundbed

Ok I finally had a chance to play with the "Scales"...



[email protected] said:


> was searching for a version that doesn't have the last note repeated



I think the last repeated note depends on which rhythm / pattern / type of Scale you select.

Even when it repeats, you can get around it.

Starting with Smooth all the way up, or holding down the note beyond the length of the scale's recording:

If you use Scales: Start - End, then the last note won't repeat, if Accent is off and Destination Volume is all the way down.

If you use some other Scales — like Tuplet Diatonic — then the last note does not seem repeated to me, even if Accent is on and the Destination Volume is all the way up.

When the last note does repeat, such as with 16th diatonic, and you don't have Accent on, and turn the Destination Volume knob all the way down, the last repeated note is much less emphasized. This is likely due to the convention in rhythms like 16ths to end a little run like that on a "strong" beat, hence the last note repeating makes sense (to me).

~

However if you turn Smooth a bit less than halfway "up" and let go of the note early, the selected "Scale" pattern fades out quickly. You'd have to dial in the Smooth knob and your MIDI note lengths to string them together without the last note repeated I think.

Try letting go of the MIDI note immediately and having Smooth all the way down. You hear one, two or two and a half notes as the scale fades away quickly (depending on tempo / speed).

Around 1/3 of the way through the Smooth knob more notes start to play through even with a tiny MIDI note length. By around 1/2 of the knob most of the "scale" pattern will play, but much quieter than if you hold down the MIDI note.


----------



## ansthenia

PeterMaze said:


> Here is my short MSS test session. As you'll hear, shorts are sounding ok, but I struggle with the legato phrases for the 1st violins at the end. They sound rather 'sticky' and unrealistic


I'm finding 1st Violins to have very sticky and bumpy legato too. I love all the other sections, but find 1st Violins hard to work with - the legato for that section really doesn't seem on par with the rest of the library imo.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

ansthenia said:


> I'm finding 1st Violins to have very sticky and bumpy legato too. I love all the other sections, but find 1st Violins hard to work with - the legato for that section really doesn't seem on par with the rest of the library imo.


I’m not finding this - do you have an example to post along with the MIDI?


----------



## Noeticus

This thread must thrive!!!

Why? Ahh... cause MSS is sooooo good! 

Great, even!


----------



## lettucehat

Been waiting a long time to start hearing this library in actual composition context rather than tests and demonstrations... anything? I think I've watched everything that comes up on Youtube when you search for the library.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

lettucehat said:


> Been waiting a long time to start hearing this library in actual composition context rather than tests and demonstrations... anything? I think I've watched everything that comes up on Youtube when you search for the library.


I use it all over my stuff now since I got it.
www.SoundCloud.com/michaeloliva

particularly on ‘thee headless rider’, ‘a midnight stroll’ & ‘seven horses’.
You can tell I love the runs/ostinatos engine


----------



## paulwr

With the v1.2 update and using the new feature of playback in Look Ahead, but turning it off when performing the notes and quantizing once done and switching back to Look Ahead... I'm still having trouble getting the shorts to lay in correctly sound-wise. On the project I was working on, I was using velocity to choose the type of short (nice actually) but what happens is the very beginning of the audio of a note lines up, but the weight of the note comes a little later. I'm using the midi negative offset for the look ahead feature so I'm back to sliding stuff around, though MUCH more consistent now with this new feature. Anyone else experiencing this? I need more time to mess with it but am just too busy right now. If I could just get some additional negative note placement built into the process, I might be in a lot better shape. Hopefully I'm just overlooking something.


----------



## Casiquire

paulwr said:


> With the v1.2 update and using the new feature of playback in Look Ahead, but turning it off when performing the notes and quantizing once done and switching back to Look Ahead... I'm still having trouble getting the shorts to lay in correctly sound-wise. On the project I was working on, I was using velocity to choose the type of short (nice actually) but what happens is the very beginning of the audio of a note lines up, but the weight of the note comes a little later. I'm using the midi negative offset for the look ahead feature so I'm back to sliding stuff around, though MUCH more consistent now with this new feature. Anyone else experiencing this? I need more time to mess with it but am just too busy right now. If I could just get some additional negative note placement built into the process, I might be in a lot better shape. Hopefully I'm just overlooking something.


I haven't been experiencing that here. The shorts sound pretty well lined up with the longs in the projects I've worked on. I do believe the shorts are too loud but there's a convenient volume knob on each articulation to fix that.

Have you brought it up in the forums? They're very responsive


----------



## paulwr

Casiquire said:


> I haven't been experiencing that here. The shorts sound pretty well lined up with the longs in the projects I've worked on. I do believe the shorts are too loud but there's a convenient volume knob on each articulation to fix that.
> 
> Have you brought it up in the forums? They're very responsive


Thanks. I think I'll play around with it a bit more first. Yes, they are very responsive overall. I've been with them since LASS was first released and good friend did a lot of music editing for Andrew years before Audiobro. A generally great guy and company.


----------



## Wedge

paulwr said:


> With the v1.2 update and using the new feature of playback in Look Ahead, but turning it off when performing the notes and quantizing once done and switching back to Look Ahead... I'm still having trouble getting the shorts to lay in correctly sound-wise. On the project I was working on, I was using velocity to choose the type of short (nice actually) but what happens is the very beginning of the audio of a note lines up, but the weight of the note comes a little later. I'm using the midi negative offset for the look ahead feature so I'm back to sliding stuff around, though MUCH more consistent now with this new feature. Anyone else experiencing this? I need more time to mess with it but am just too busy right now. If I could just get some additional negative note placement built into the process, I might be in a lot better shape. Hopefully I'm just overlooking something.


I don't have that problem. Studio One's playback gets weird with higher negative offsets so I went the other direction, I submitted a bug report. Instead of negative 420ms I have positive 580ms on everything else. Since doing that, everything has lined up quite nicely.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

So I just discovered something weird I somehow never noticed before?

I was trying to play along to the gut motors chords in Albion solstice, using the cello from MSS and noticed the tuning is way off. Figured that maybe since solstice stuff is maybe tuned a bit weird or Celtic or has different intonation?

But then I was playing the same melody line with BBC Pro Cello and noticed that BBC strings and MSS's strings are also off from eachtother. It seems like Spitfires strings are a half-step down from MSS.

Is this normal? How have I never noticed this before....seems kinda weird that they'd be that far off...

Also not only is it a half step off, but I noticed while playing along to Howard shore's prologue ring theme, that MSS is on pitch but BBC Pro violins are out of tune slightly....like the intonation is fucked up.


EDIT: Ok also I just noticed, when I load MSS its in tune for anywhere between 5-30 seconds, then I noticed while playing it literally changed pitched permanently (you can hear it bend and then its not only a half step down from then on out, it's also slightly off tune.) wtf is going on? Anyone experience this? The actually tune knob is remaining 0.00 so nothing is happening there. If I change it to -1.00 it goes back to the right key but it's then slightly out of tune form there on out....


----------



## Casiquire

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I just discovered something weird I somehow never noticed before?
> 
> I was trying to play along to the gut motors chords in Albion solstice, using the cello from MSS and noticed the tuning is way off. Figured that maybe since solstice stuff is maybe tuned a bit weird or Celtic or has different intonation?
> 
> But then I was playing the same melody line with BBC Pro Cello and noticed that BBC strings and MSS's strings are also off from eachtother. It seems like Spitfires strings are a half-step down from MSS.
> 
> Is this normal? How have I never noticed this before....seems kinda weird that they'd be that far off...
> 
> Also not only is it a half step off, but I noticed while playing along to Howard shore's prologue ring theme, that MSS is on pitch but BBC Pro violins are out of tune slightly....like the intonation is fucked up.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Ok also I just noticed, when I load MSS its in tune for anywhere between 5-30 seconds, then I noticed while playing it literally changed pitched permanently (you can hear it bend and then its not only a half step down from then on out, it's also slightly off tune.) wtf is going on? Anyone experience this? The actually tune knob is remaining 0.00 so nothing is happening there. If I change it to -1.00 it goes back to the right key but it's then slightly out of tune form there on out....


I haven't experienced anything like that at all. Very odd! Check the detune knob and settings, and of course the pitch wheel, and if that fails I'd bring it up in their forums


----------



## samplin

Baronvonheadless said:


> So I just discovered something weird I somehow never noticed before?
> 
> I was trying to play along to the gut motors chords in Albion solstice, using the cello from MSS and noticed the tuning is way off. Figured that maybe since solstice stuff is maybe tuned a bit weird or Celtic or has different intonation?
> 
> But then I was playing the same melody line with BBC Pro Cello and noticed that BBC strings and MSS's strings are also off from eachtother. It seems like Spitfires strings are a half-step down from MSS.
> 
> Is this normal? How have I never noticed this before....seems kinda weird that they'd be that far off...





Baronvonheadless said:


> So I just discovered something weird I somehow never noticed before?
> 
> I was trying to play along to the gut motors chords in Albion solstice, using the cello from MSS and noticed the tuning is way off. Figured that maybe since solstice stuff is maybe tuned a bit weird or Celtic or has different intonation?
> 
> But then I was playing the same melody line with BBC Pro Cello and noticed that BBC strings and MSS's strings are also off from eachtother. It seems like Spitfires strings are a half-step down from MSS.
> 
> Is this normal? How have I never noticed this before....seems kinda weird that they'd be that far off...
> 
> Also not only is it a half step off, but I noticed while playing along to Howard shore's prologue ring theme, that MSS is on pitch but BBC Pro violins are out of tune slightly....like the intonation is fucked up.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Ok also I just noticed, when I load MSS its in tune for anywhere between 5-30 seconds, then I noticed while playing it literally changed pitched permanently (you can hear it bend and then its not only a half step down from then on out, it's also slightly off tune.) wtf is going on? Anyone experience this? The actually tune knob is remaining 0.00 so nothing is happening there. If I change it to -1.00 it goes back to the right key but it's then slightly out of tune form there on out....


Not sure if this is the same thing… but once in a while I will notice it being out of time but moving the pitch bend to the middle sets it right… I have a second small keyboard for jet switching and that mod wheel moves sometimes too. Good luck!


----------



## Baronvonheadless

PROBLEM SOLVED:

So I use an M-Audio Keystation 61 and an Akai mpk225.

I unplugged the akai and the problem is no longer happening.

I plugged in only the akai and the problem wasn't happening either.

The problem happens when I change the midi channel from ALL to Omni, as the keystation keyboard does not work unless it's in omni for some reason.

Once omni is engaged the pitch bend shit happens. Not sure why, this has never been an issue until now. So it doesn't seem the akai is broken...at least in it's regular mode, but if the akai is plugged in now with omni selected it is reacting funny to it. New issue, but really I rarely use the akai so now I will just leave it unplugged while using the keystation and if I need the akai to do drum parts etc I will leave it in ALL mode.


----------



## MusicalWhiskey

Just wanted to chime in and say that this is still my favorite string library 😁.


----------



## ChristianM

MusicalWhiskey said:


> Je voulais juste intervenir et dire que c'est toujours ma bibliothèque de cordes préférée 😁.


too me


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Loving the flexibility and sound.


----------



## Pablocrespo

I still can´t gel with the sound, tried lots of settings but can´t seem to like it yet


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Pablocrespo said:


> I still can´t gel with the sound, tried lots of settings but can´t seem to like it yet


Which string library's sound do you love?


----------



## Casiquire

Pablocrespo said:


> I still can´t gel with the sound, tried lots of settings but can´t seem to like it yet


My suggestion is to strip all of the processing it comes with. So in the mixer, use the presets "empty mixer" and...i think the other preset is "empty sends?" But I'm going from memory. Then make all the mic positions consistent and set the bass dynamic range to be consistent with the rest of the instruments. I went ahead and resaved all the patches this way, so that right when i open it I'm getting the raw, consistent sound.

Personally i prefer the room and surround mics without the close at all. I could see myself using just those raw settings without much processing, but for my taste there's just a little bit of something that i like to gently EQ out just above 3k, maybe 3.2khz. 

So for me it's not that i need to DO much, i need to UNDO. The raw, unmessed-with sound can be stunning


----------



## Pablocrespo

I did all that, there is something in the room I don´t like, so it is not the processing but the raw sounds.

For example, I love LASS shorts, but this shorts have some resonance or something that put me off.
I love almost everything about it, I have to work harder to make it sound good, won´t give up yet


----------



## Casiquire

Pablocrespo said:


> I did all that, there is something in the room I don´t like, so it is not the processing but the raw sounds.
> 
> For example, I love LASS shorts, but this shorts have some resonance or something that put me off.
> I love almost everything about it, I have to work harder to make it sound good, won´t give up yet


I don't remember much resonance with the shorts, but i do question whether the shorts are balanced properly. I'd try using volume to adjust the balance just right so that you're not using, for example, a CC value of 60 on the longs but a velocity of 30 when the real problem is volume balance, but if that doesn't help, maybe post an example here? I haven't noticed any strange resonance here


----------



## Wedge

Pablocrespo said:


> I did all that, there is something in the room I don´t like, so it is not the processing but the raw sounds.
> 
> For example, I love LASS shorts, but this shorts have some resonance or something that put me off.
> I love almost everything about it, I have to work harder to make it sound good, won´t give up yet


I know what you're talking about. I use a ton of string shorts, the variety is part of why I picked this library up. Some of the shorts just don't sound great on their own. I too have disabled all the processing and mainly use the stage mic, the close mic isn't my favorite. But it's weird if I mix in a slight reverb on top and push them back to 50 with precedence they sound great when mixed in with other stuff. I'm currently using it with CSB slightly widened 110 and at around 75 and CSW around 65 (I'm going off memory so I could be off.) So depending on what you have you might want to try something like that.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I know some folks like to disable the default EQs, but I've personally found they nicely warm the tone up in a way I really like as the default sound. I do turn off the included reverbs though.

Comparing today against Synchron Strings Pro and Spitfire Symphonic Strings, both of which I like, and I just really loved the sound (and workflow) from MSS. Warm, grand, excellent workflow with automatic latency compensation, no weird noises / editing issues like SSS, not as piercingly bright as SySP.

Any owners of MSS also own Berlin Symphonic Strings? If so, how do you find BSS?


----------



## Soundbed

I use Soothe2 to remove resonances dynamically. There’s a cheaper plugin that does a similar thing I haven’t tried. Smooth Operator, currently $39 at Plugin Boutique. I got Soothe2 for taming resonances in previous strings packages including CSS, before MSS came out.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I'm still not convinced that MSS is a suitable strings library for me. I'm planning to wait for LASS 3 to be released by the end of the year, and see if that is a better choice for me.

i.e. I feel MSS has too many parameters/option to tweak, which might make it a bit complicated to use, or I should say, not the easiest strings library to use, when compared to other competing string library options.

Maybe I should ask MSS users, if it has become your go-to Strings library ? and what would you say are the aspects of MSS that impress you the most when using it ? Are there any demos that will impress me on YT ?

I also came across many comments regarding not liking the sound of the room it was recorded in, the hall resonances, reflections.. etc. that are not very flattering, how true is this ? and what are your thoughts about it ?

It's not going to be easy to convince me that MSS is another Strings library I need. So, if you are up to the challenge, go for it.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

muziksculp said:


> i.e. I feel MSS has too many parameters/option to tweak, which might make it a bit complicated to use, or I should say, not the easiest strings library to use, when compared to other competing string library options.


When I use it, I rarely touch any parameters. Their out of box settings are quite good. But what’s great is unlike other libraries, IF you do need to adjust those to suit a piece better, you can. Not the case with most libraries. Also, one of the only libraries with individual desks recorded for proper divisi writing. This makes it a library that can span lots of different scenarios.


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> When I use it


This sentence tells me MSS is not your Go-To Strings library.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

muziksculp said:


> This sentence tells me MSS is not your Go-To Strings library.


Well I’ve been trying to use the project colossal template recently given I just got it. However, it has shed light on some of the annoying aspects of using the CS instruments. Now I’ve been back to my main template and focused on using MSS - and compared to CSS, it has put a smile on my face.


----------



## FKVStudio

Hi all! After some time without being able to work, I have finally been able to do some work with Audiobro MSS. I have used them together with other libraries like Action Strikes and Damage from NI and a few more extras.

Hope you like. Soon I will upload more works with other libraries that I own, some older and some newer. I am a newbie so I accept any constructive criticism that you want to make me.

Bye!

​


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well I’ve been trying to use the project colossal template recently given I just got it. However, it has shed light on some of the annoying aspects of using the CS instruments. Now I’ve been back to my main template and focused on using MSS - and compared to CSS, it has put a smile on my face.


That's been my exact experience too.


----------



## Casiquire

FKVStudio said:


> Hi all! After some time without being able to work, I have finally been able to do some work with Audiobro MSS. I have used them together with other libraries like Action Strikes and Damage from NI and a few more extras.
> 
> Hope you like. Soon I will upload more works with other libraries that I own, some older and some newer. I am a newbie so I accept any constructive criticism that you want to make me.
> 
> Bye!
> 
> ​



I like the sound here but I'm listening on my phone so I'm not giving any advice right now. They do seem to cut through the mix nicely at the beginning and then duck back behind louder instruments as needed


----------



## muziksculp

Has there been any news about LASS 3 lately ?


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Has there been any news about LASS 3 lately ?


Check their forums 😁 there's a decent amount of new detail about what to expect with LASS 3. I was poking around and asking questions about the solo viola in MSS and how that compares with what LASS3 looks like. Quick summary, they aren't doing anything to directly change the sound right now (sort of....more on that in a second) so there won't be new mics or anything like that. It should be compatible with existing projects without issue. It will all be in their new interface though and will also be compatible with the MSS/Genesis/MSB workflow. It will also have an option to push the legato sample back just like the Pixelpoet trick. At the moment i don't believe it will have an auto speed option like MSS but honestly i think that's fine, as long as everything is optimized to match that delay like MSS's lookahead I'm perfectly fine with a fixed longer legato speed. That legato delay option will affect the sound of course.

It sounds to me like they're also trying to get all the stages and colors translated into the new interface. Their comments make it clear that this update will integrate well with previous projects, just with a new face and a couple features added as extra options that legacy users could just ignore.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Check their forums 😁 there's a decent amount of new detail about what to expect with LASS 3. I was poking around and asking questions about the solo viola in MSS and how that compares with what LASS3 looks like. Quick summary, they aren't doing anything to directly change the sound right now (sort of....more on that in a second) so there won't be new mics or anything like that. It should be compatible with existing projects without issue. It will all be in their new interface though and will also be compatible with the MSS/Genesis/MSB workflow. It will also have an option to push the legato sample back just like the Pixelpoet trick. At the moment i don't believe it will have an auto speed option like MSS but honestly i think that's fine, as long as everything is optimized to match that delay like MSS's lookahead I'm perfectly fine with a fixed longer legato speed. That legato delay option will affect the sound of course.
> 
> It sounds to me like they're also trying to get all the stages and colors translated into the new interface. Their comments make it clear that this update will integrate well with previous projects, just with a new face and a couple features added as extra options that legacy users could just ignore.


Sounds good. 

Thanks for the feedback on LASS 3. I will also visit the AudioBro Forums to keep myself updated.


----------



## Noeticus

MSS and LASS 3... now that sounds like a truly great combination!


----------



## Zanshin

Noeticus said:


> MSS and LASS 3... now that sounds like a truly great combination!


I'm not terribly familiar with LASS, it's a much drier library than MSS? Like Dimension Strings dry even?


----------



## Noeticus

Ah... but with software like Altiverb by Audioease you will be in 7th heaven even if you don't use 7th heaven.

Plus there's always Valhalla.


----------



## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> I'm not terribly familiar with LASS, it's a much drier library than MSS? Like Dimension Strings dry even?


It's not as dry as Dimension. I wouldn't even say it's as dry as something like Hollywood Strings. But it is very dry and recorded pretty close-sounding with some bow noise. It needs reverb and works best at low dynamics because it hits forte QUICK


----------



## muziksculp

@Casiquire,

Do you have LASS 2.5 ? 

If you do, are you liking MSS much better than LASS 2.5 in general ? 

I'm hoping that LASS 3 with the new GUI, and some new features will be a big step up from LASS 2.5. 

With regards to MSS, I'm still unsold on this library, so far I haven't heard anything done with MSS that impressed enough to buy it. I'm waiting for a few other Strings libraries to be released maybe next month, so that's one more reason I have not purchased MSS.


----------



## Noeticus

String Theory predicts that String Libraries will be released.... foreverrrrr!!!


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> @Casiquire,
> 
> Do you have LASS 2.5 ?
> 
> If you do, are you liking MSS much better than LASS 2.5 in general ?
> 
> I'm hoping that LASS 3 with the new GUI, and some new features will be a big step up from LASS 2.5.
> 
> With regards to MSS, I'm still unsold on this library, so far I haven't heard anything done with MSS that impressed enough to buy it. I'm waiting for a few other Strings libraries to be released maybe next month, so that's one more reason I have not purchased MSS.


I like MSS far better. It's somehow even more comprehensive than LASS and can nail even more playing styles, plus it just sounds so convincing. There's not much LASS does that MSS doesn't do better.

LASS 3 doesn't seem like it will have many new features, if any, aside from the longer transitions. If ya want more features, that's what MSS is for 😁


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I like MSS far better. It's somehow even more comprehensive than LASS and can nail even more playing styles, plus it just sounds so convincing. There's not much LASS does that MSS doesn't do better.
> 
> LASS 3 doesn't seem like it will have many new features, if any, aside from the longer transitions. If ya want more features, that's what MSS is for 😁


Thanks. 

I have LASS 2.5, and the LASS LS 2.5 Libraries, but I don't use them that much these days, and I never got the hang of using the Auto-Divisi system in Kontakt, I found it too complicated, and time consuming to deal with. 

That's why MSS, and LASS 3 are more attractive to me. But as I said, there are a few string libraries that might better suite my taste that are going to be released in the near future, so I decided to wait for LASS 3 instead of buying MSS, but you never know. I might end up with MSS instead of LASS 3, although I think it will be much more affordable for me to upgrade to LASS 3, rather than buying MSS.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I have owned LASS for many years but never really used it for two reasons - one because I found ARC annoying to set up and two because even with the stage and color presets, it never sounded very good to me.

LASS 3.0 will address 1 but unlikely to change 2. MSS addressed both for me.


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> LASS 3.0 will address 1 but unlikely to change 2


Yes, that might be the case. But what if Audio Bro improve the sound of LASS 3 via new Impulses that are much better than the older Sound and Color. We shall see. 

One of the areas that scares me a bit about MSS, is that is offers too many things to tweak, which could be counter intuitive if one needs a more streamlined workflow. Do you find this an issue ?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

muziksculp said:


> Yes, that might be the case. But what if Audio Bro improve the sound of LASS 3 via new Impulses that are much better than the older Sound and Color. We shall see.
> 
> One of the areas that scares me a bit about MSS, is that is offers too many things to tweak, which could be counter intuitive if one needs a more streamlined workflow. Do you find this an issue ?


I answered your question about that on the previous page of this thread - but I don't think you particularly liked my answer


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I answered your question about that on the previous page of this thread - but I don't think you particularly liked my answer


Hehe.. No I didn't dislike your answer. I just forgot you answered my question.  

THANKS !


----------



## Batrawi

Casiquire said:


> Check their forums 😁 there's a decent amount of new detail about what to expect with LASS 3. I was poking around and asking questions about the solo viola in MSS and how that compares with what LASS3 looks like. Quick summary, they aren't doing anything to directly change the sound right now (sort of....more on that in a second) so there won't be new mics or anything like that. It should be compatible with existing projects without issue. It will all be in their new interface though and will also be compatible with the MSS/Genesis/MSB workflow. It will also have an option to push the legato sample back just like the Pixelpoet trick. At the moment i don't believe it will have an auto speed option like MSS but honestly i think that's fine, as long as everything is optimized to match that delay like MSS's lookahead I'm perfectly fine with a fixed longer legato speed. That legato delay option will affect the sound of course.
> 
> It sounds to me like they're also trying to get all the stages and colors translated into the new interface. Their comments make it clear that this update will integrate well with previous projects, just with a new face and a couple features added as extra options that legacy users could just ignore.


Nothing mentioned on having another pass over the out of tune samples from what you've gathered so far? that would have been a really big one!


----------



## Casiquire

Batrawi said:


> Nothing mentioned on having another pass over the out of tune samples from what you've gathered so far? that would have been a really big one!


Most of my comment is made of answers to my specific questions, and i didn't ask about that because it hasn't been much of a concern in my projects. It's a good question though!


----------



## novaburst

Just want to remind all that are a little perplexed with the comprehensiveness in MSS its a good idea to spend a little time dialling in the tone/sound/playability that you want then rename the instrument in Kontakt and (*save as) *it will automatically be added to your MSS drop down menu in Kontakt and can be re called any time,

So for instance Violin 1 Can be renamed *Violin aggressive 1 *or* Violin soft 1*
You can move on to other instruments the cello, bass violas as many (*saves as)* you want 

Then recall any one or any twenty, with all the settings you did both in the MSS library and in Kontakt 

It also provides a good foundation point for more tweaking if needed


----------



## Casiquire

novaburst said:


> Just want to remind all that are a little perplexed with the comprehensiveness in MSS its a good idea to spend a little time dialling in the tone/sound/playability that you want then rename the instrument in Kontakt and (*save as) *it will automatically be added to your MSS drop down menu in Kontakt and can be re called any time,
> 
> So for instance Violin 1 Can be renamed *Violin aggressive 1 *or* Violin soft 1*
> You can move on to other instruments the cello, bass violas as many (*saves as)* you want
> 
> Then recall any one or any twenty, with all the settings you did both in the MSS library and in Kontakt
> 
> It also provides a good foundation point for more tweaking if needed


That's a good idea. There are a ton of hidden little features you don't really need to concern yourself with and that don't even have a dedicated keyswitch or slider but that can open up new sounds, such as the marcato overlay which I've sent to CC9 for my patches. You can also save some useful things as keyswitches


----------



## novaburst

I think the save button is our best friend especially if you want to dial up something from another project. 

from eq, reverbs, or any plugin, library, have that friendly save button i need to kick myself sometimes for forgetting to use, as it can get annoying when your trying to remember a setting that you used before that really sounded good


----------



## samplin

novaburst said:


> Just want to remind all that are a little perplexed with the comprehensiveness in MSS its a good idea to spend a little time dialling in the tone/sound/playability that you want then rename the instrument in Kontakt and (*save as) *it will automatically be added to your MSS drop down menu in Kontakt and can be re called any time,
> 
> So for instance Violin 1 Can be renamed *Violin aggressive 1 *or* Violin soft 1*
> You can move on to other instruments the cello, bass violas as many (*saves as)* you want
> 
> Then recall any one or any twenty, with all the settings you did both in the MSS library and in Kontakt
> 
> It also provides a good foundation point for more tweaking if needed


THis is a good reminder. I personally enjoy using it as is and have gotten good results straight away. I've also tweaked and played around to try different results and somehow get lost in the fray. i think saving something you like and loading that up is the best way forward. m


----------



## ChristianM

Noeticus said:


> La théorie des cordes prédit que les bibliothèques de cordes seront publiées....foreverrrrr!!!


Yes, but in this multivvers ?


----------



## dts_marin

This library sounds *phenomenal* in more modern settings but IMO the violins are lacking that rich & soft sound we often need. I wish AB did some additional legato recordings played sul tasto with lots & lots of vibrato. Something akin to the Scene d'Amour Violins from Afflatus but without mutes. 

I find many sampled violins sound really harsh in the mid-high range when played in the ordinary position maybe because of the crossfades. (not an MSS exclusive issue). The other sections don't seem to suffer from this issue. 

Of course MSS isn't meant to do everything but it does almost anything else really well except from this thing at least IMO.


----------



## Fibigero

I'm not really a fan of the sound to be frank. I like the sound of CSS a lot more. More warmth. MSS kind of sounds more "clean", lifeless to me. Would love to see a comparison of the same piece mocked up with CSS and MSS


----------



## Casiquire

Fibigero said:


> I'm not really a fan of the sound to be frank. I like the sound of CSS a lot more. More warmth. MSS kind of sounds more "clean", lifeless to me. Would love to see a comparison of the same piece mocked up with CSS and MSS


I don't think there's a single major library out there that's warmer and less clean than CSS aside from maybe Vista, so I'm not sure that's a totally fair comparison. Do you own MSS?


----------



## Fibigero

Casiquire said:


> I don't think there's a single major library out there that's warmer and less clean than CSS aside from maybe Vista, so I'm not sure that's a totally fair comparison. Do you own MSS?



No, I don't own it. Only watched a lot of videos demonstrating it on youtube.


----------



## Pablocrespo

I for one don´t like the sound, I love LASS sound, but couldn´t get to like MSS sound, I have tried a lot of things but there is something there I don´t like...maybe something to do with the room?
It´s a matter of taste, but I left only the ostinatos in my template, though I wish I could sell it


----------



## Evans

I see it this way: I'm not a pro golfer, but I enjoy having a full set of clubs for different use cases.

It's the same reason why I have both MSS and CSS. If I want something clean and malleable? MSS. If I want a swarm of angry bees mic'd up inside a tin can, CSS.

(kidding... sort of)

EDIT: People who are better overall humans than me can do wonderful things with CSS. I have not the skill, talent, or patience.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Fibigero said:


> I'm not really a fan of the sound to be frank. I like the sound of CSS a lot more. More warmth. MSS kind of sounds more "clean", lifeless to me. Would love to see a comparison of the same piece mocked up with CSS and MSS


Not with the most recent update (yet!) but you can here comparisons I did here:






Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings


Here is completely "out of the box" legato. The video description says more about what I did. Dinner time at our house. I'll be back laters! EDIT - the last pass seems "easier to watch" than the first pass, FWIW




vi-control.net


----------



## AEF

There are endless demos and screencasts of CSS based music.

I find it curious that MSS’s champions dont seem to have much to show. 

Don’t believe the fluffers on this one—its an overpriced dog of a library.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Pablocrespo said:


> I for one don´t like the sound, I love LASS sound, but couldn´t get to like MSS sound, I have tried a lot of things but there is something there I don´t like...maybe something to do with the room?
> It´s a matter of taste, but I left only the ostinatos in my template, though I wish I could sell it


Have you tried a short ER heavy IR? I tried the scoring stages in EW Spaces II and it warmed it up quite a lot in my tests.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

AEF said:


> There are endless demos and screencasts of CSS based music.
> 
> I find it curious that MSS’s champions dont seem to have much to show.
> 
> Don’t believe the fluffers on this one—its an overpriced dog of a library.


Well we'll have to agree to disagree. I've tried to post many examples in this thread, and @Soundbed has offered many video demonstrations, so I'm not sure how much more you'd like to see without being able to demo it. For what it's worth, MSS and MSB are workhorses for me. Easily.


----------



## AEF

i iw


Duncan Krummel said:


> Well we'll have to agree to disagree. I've tried to post many examples in this thread, and @Soundbed has offered many video demonstrations, so I'm not sure how much more you'd like to see without being able to demo it. For what it's worth, MSS and MSB are workhorses for me. Easily.


i own it.

it is god awful.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

AEF said:


> i iw
> 
> i own it.
> 
> it is god awful.


Well then like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I find it endlessly flexible and absolutely worth every cent. But ymmv.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Duncan Krummel said:


> Well then like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I find it endlessly flexible and absolutely worth every cent. But ymmv.


I also own it.

I think it's great. 

& I use the strings more than the strings in BBC Pro.

If I play a long to, lets say, the Lord of the Rings theme it sounds dead on tone/timbre and that's the style I love. The legato connection and vibrato sounds way more like the live recordings than when I use the strings in BBC Pro.

(Both seem to be controversial libraries here, but they are the big ones that I own. I don't own anything by cinematic studio series)


----------



## Fibigero

Duncan Krummel said:


> Not with the most recent update (yet!) but you can here comparisons I did here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Audiobro Modern Scoring Strings
> 
> 
> Here is completely "out of the box" legato. The video description says more about what I did. Dinner time at our house. I'll be back laters! EDIT - the last pass seems "easier to watch" than the first pass, FWIW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Was just checking out the demos. Do you have the midi of that short composition?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Fibigero said:


> Was just checking out the demos. Do you have the midi of that short composition?


Attached! Also added to the dropbox folder.

Edit: Added a quick score, because I felt spicy.


----------



## Casiquire

I've been working on a mock-up of a piece from a video game to stress test MSS and i have to say MSS is warmer than both live performances of the piece on YouTube and the original studio recording for the game. I plan to post it in the next day or so. We shouldn't compare everything to the warmth of CSS because live strings almost never sound like that.

I feel like that one comment is just trying to get a rise out of people. I've posted a handful of examples that people have responded positively to, and so have a handful of others. I plan to post more and more going forward too with a pretty lengthy review in the works.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I recently did a comparison of shorts and MSS was easily my favorite of 5 different libraries. MSS continues to be one of the most consistently programmed and edited libraries I have - and I actually prefer the tone of it to CSS (even with the project colossal template). And agree - it has a super warm tone (I actually leave the default EQ on for that reason).


----------



## Soundbed

novaburst said:


> Just want to remind all that are a little perplexed with the comprehensiveness in MSS its a good idea to spend a little time dialling in the tone/sound/playability that you want then rename the instrument in Kontakt and (*save as) *it will automatically be added to your MSS drop down menu in Kontakt and can be re called any time,
> 
> So for instance Violin 1 Can be renamed *Violin aggressive 1 *or* Violin soft 1*
> You can move on to other instruments the cello, bass violas as many (*saves as)* you want
> 
> Then recall any one or any twenty, with all the settings you did both in the MSS library and in Kontakt
> 
> It also provides a good foundation point for more tweaking if needed


I think Snapshots are good for this as well.


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> I think Snapshots are good for this as well.


Snapshots? Tell me more!



ALittleNightMusic said:


> I recently did a comparison of shorts and MSS was easily my favorite of 5 different libraries. MSS continues to be one of the most consistently programmed and edited libraries I have - and I actually prefer the tone of it to CSS (even with the project colossal template). And agree - it has a super warm tone (I actually leave the default EQ on for that reason).


I'm not crazy about any of the defaults. I think the raw samples are near perfect so i tend to exercise my usual less-is-more approach. But even with the arrangement i mentioned above, which has the violins in chords at the top of their ranges and the loudest they go, I'm not finding it too harsh. Just well balanced


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> Snapshots? Tell me more!


The little camera in Kontakt, next to the i for info.

There are a couple factory snapshots provided by AudioBro.

I sometimes make my own when I find myself changing the same things all the time.






(fwiw I also save presets, sometimes with external effects, as instruments in Studio One and drag those onto the DAW instead of Kontakt itself.)


----------



## Soundbed

AEF said:


> Don’t believe the fluffers on this one—its an overpriced dog of a library.


aw  and just a few days ago, you were almost ready to re-install it!



AEF said:


> Casiquire: you have done such justice to a library that to be frank I truly hated, it makes me really reconsider reinstalling MSS. bravo.



https://vi-control.net/community/th...ings-anyone-up-for-a-duel.113010/post-4888673


----------



## Living Fossil

MSS for sure isn't the easiest library to handle and it comes with a learning curve.
And i'm sure it simply isn't made for everyone.
Personally, i find myself using it a lot in the past months. And somehow, with knowing this library better, i start to miss lots of things it offers in other libraries (like the lookahead feature; which made me buy a stream deck to have immediate control over it).

Here's a (quite simple) track i did last week (only woodwinds, MSS strings, harp, celesta, timp. and triangle) which shows a side of the expression of MSS that i quite like.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Living Fossil said:


> MSS for sure isn't the easiest library to handle and it comes with a learning curve.
> And i'm sure it simply isn't made for everyone.
> Personally, i find myself using it a lot in the past months. And somehow, with knowing this library better, i start to miss lots of things it offers in other libraries (like the lookahead feature; which made me buy a stream deck to have immediate control over it).
> 
> Here's a (quite simple) track i did last week (only woodwinds, MSS strings, harp, celesta, timp. and triangle) which shows a side of the expression of MSS that i quite like.



Nice track man, what articulations are you using in MSS? Keyswitching between a few to get that initial line?


----------



## Baronvonheadless

So today after reading some more comments I decided to do a quick string test to showcase MSS and little by little I kept adding to it, not really thinking of structure and just kept writing bit by bit haha.

Came up with this, it's a little messy as it was just a test really, but it's kind of grown on me.

MSS are the only strings, mixed with Abbey Road One's Percussion, brass and wondrous flutes.

BBC Contrabassoon and English horn in the mix, as well as HAMMERS. 

Ended up with a weird ass hybrid score that I think showcases MSS quite a bit.


----------



## borisb2

Baronvonheadless said:


> Ended up with a weird ass hybrid score


nice! - I like the subtle (slightly unexpected) change at 2:00


----------



## Baronvonheadless

borisb2 said:


> nice! - I like the subtle (slightly unexpected) change at 2:00


Yes extremely subtle  

haha I had so many layers that my project was overloading so I never went back to work on transitions. Just worked on one part after the other and bounced/called it a day. Sort of like improv haha.


----------



## borisb2

finally downloaded and installed the 1.2 update as well. I have to say I'm quite impressed with the improvements

This is me noodeling around for 30 min and comparing to Berlin Strings:

MSS - Berlin Strings - both layered
View attachment MSS_BS.mp3


10 min speed-noodeling to test out exposed legato line  :

MSS - Berlin Strings
View attachment MSS02b.mp3


I'm quite happy with the settings for MSS .. I think BS would need some more work here


----------



## william81723

Living Fossil said:


> MSS for sure isn't the easiest library to handle and it comes with a learning curve.
> And i'm sure it simply isn't made for everyone.
> Personally, i find myself using it a lot in the past months. And somehow, with knowing this library better, i start to miss lots of things it offers in other libraries (like the lookahead feature; which made me buy a stream deck to have immediate control over it).
> 
> Here's a (quite simple) track i did last week (only woodwinds, MSS strings, harp, celesta, timp. and triangle) which shows a side of the expression of MSS that i quite like.



In my opinion,MSS's sound and tone are fine but the transitions are always blurred and xfady even after updated.(Also happen in your demo) It sounds really fake...
Compare to my other strings libraries,I really regret buying MSS... There are so many better choices in the market(and more cheaper).


----------



## Baronvonheadless

william81723 said:


> In my opinion,MSS's sound and tone are fine but the transitions are always blurred and xfady even after updated.(Also happen in your demo) It sounds really fake...
> Compare to my other strings libraries,I really regret buying MSS... There are so many better choices in the market(and more cheaper).


What is your top? What else in the market can handle the ostinatos/short rhythm tools/scales with such control and ease? Just genuinely curious not being a dick. It’s a lot of $$ to throw down for sure.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

For example, I love everything about abbey road one except for the strings honestly. To me, they sound synthy. Although I love the strings in bbc pro I find mss to be way silkier/better vibrato and legato transitions. More real sounding than bbc.


----------



## Robert_G

I haven't been in this thread for quite a few weeks. Did MSS end up being everything it promised to be after all the fixes?


----------



## william81723

Baronvonheadless said:


> What is your top? What else in the market can handle the ostinatos/short rhythm tools/scales with such control and ease? Just genuinely curious not being a dick. It’s a lot of $$ to throw down for sure.


SM strings,CSS,Vista,Elite Strings
I didn't complain about other parts of MSS. But the transitions are really important points to make midi mock-up realistic. I rarely compose my works with only "Short" articulations.
If I combine MSS with other libraries...The consistency of the timbre will be reduced and why do I need two libraries to bother myself and my CPU? CSS and Elite strings's shorts are already good enough and they can handle good sustains with good transitions.
MSS is really expensive.I would rather hold that money for Pacific than MSS...


----------



## Casiquire

Robert_G said:


> I haven't been in this thread for quite a few weeks. Did MSS end up being everything it promised to be after all the fixes?


Depends who you ask. I find it to be one of the most capable libraries i have. Others disagree.


----------



## Soundbed

william81723 said:


> SM strings,CSS,Vista,Elite Strings
> I didn't complain about other parts of MSS. But the transitions are really important points to make midi mock-up realistic. I rarely compose my works with only "Short" articulations.
> If I combine MSS with other libraries...The consistency of the timbre will be reduced and why do I need two libraries to bother myself and my CPU? CSS and Elite strings's shorts are already good enough and they can handle good sustains with good transitions.
> MSS is really expensive.I would rather hold that money for Pacific than MSS...


I too look forward to Pacific!

I've been playing with Elite strings and MSS today and I still (definitely, by far) prefer MSS legato transitions at the moment, so maybe it is a preference thing. (?)

Of course, I always like to clarify that I go for "convincing" instead of "realistic". I find the MSS sound great for scoring, and a "cinematic" sound. 

Elite sounds the way it does, and it does what it does well (so does Vista and CSS). If SM = Sample Modeling, I don't have them. But Elite in particular has a kind of flavor that takes me out of the mood a bit ... I like it for detail in certain places, but it's more likely to pull me out of a "mood" rather than put me in one. I'm usually writing cues for libraries, with picture in mind. Vista is great but obv has a dedicated (limited) purpose. CSS has a vibrato that sort of rattles me, some of the time, and doesn't fit my references from publishers all the time (but MSS does, more often).

While I like the Synchron Player and I think a lot of Elite is very good, I would actually use Tableau (Orchestral Tools) more than Elite 80% of the time, and only use Elite when I need that "Viennese" sound.

At least, that's where I'm at this month. Things change over time, of course.

/rambling


----------



## Casiquire

william81723 said:


> SM strings,CSS,Vista,Elite Strings
> I didn't complain about other parts of MSS. But the transitions are really important points to make midi mock-up realistic. I rarely compose my works with only "Short" articulations.
> If I combine MSS with other libraries...The consistency of the timbre will be reduced and why do I need two libraries to bother myself and my CPU? CSS and Elite strings's shorts are already good enough and they can handle good sustains with good transitions.
> MSS is really expensive.I would rather hold that money for Pacific than MSS...


I think the MSS transitions are far better and more expressive than Elite.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

You have almost no control over transitions in Elite / Synchron Pro Strings (and I really like SSP). You have total control in MSS after the update. Nothing wrong with the transitions - supremely flexible.


----------



## william81723

Casiquire said:


> I think the MSS transitions are far better and more expressive than Elite.


I did think so too.
However, I have found a secret skill to change SES's default blurred legato.
These are SES and SM Stings's samples I posted in Vi-control before.
I have triggered my MSS with so many ways but it is till fake.. I don't think MSS can have this result.


----------



## william81723

Soundbed said:


> At least, that's where I'm at this month. Things change over time, of course.
> 
> /rambling


Honestly,I truly appreciate all your video tests!!!! Those help me research more MSS potential!!


----------



## Casiquire

william81723 said:


> I did think so too.
> However, I have found a secret skill to change SES's default blurred legato.
> These are SES and SM Stings's samples I posted in Vi-control before.
> I have triggered my MSS with so many ways but it is till fake.. I don't think MSS can have this result.


I'm always down to try things out! Is there a midi file?


----------



## william81723

Casiquire said:


> I'm always down to try things out! Is there a midi file?


In fact, I really hope your mock up can convince me,because that will let my money worth.
Here you are!!! (and I forgot my CSS one.So add here)


----------



## Living Fossil

Baronvonheadless said:


> Nice track man, what articulations are you using in MSS? Keyswitching between a few to get that initial line?


Thanks for your comment. In this, i mostly used Legato (cc18 switching between bowed-norm-exp, cc16 trans. speed), shorts (cc2 tighten; velocity sens. keyswitch for marc,stac-spic) sul tasto (expanded lib) as well as trem. and pizz.


----------



## Noeticus

Living Fossil said:


> MSS for sure isn't the easiest library to handle and it comes with a learning curve.
> And i'm sure it simply isn't made for everyone.
> Personally, i find myself using it a lot in the past months. And somehow, with knowing this library better, i start to miss lots of things it offers in other libraries (like the lookahead feature; which made me buy a stream deck to have immediate control over it).
> 
> Here's a (quite simple) track i did last week (only woodwinds, MSS strings, harp, celesta, timp. and triangle) which shows a side of the expression of MSS that i quite like.



How does using Stream Deck give you immediate control over the MSS lookahead feature?


----------



## Soundbed

william81723 said:


> transitions are always blurred and xfady


I'm seeing some portamento transitions (not legato) and possibly auto divisi "diads" when I load your MIDI and use all the default MSS patches. Could that be the reason you're hearing at least some transitions as blurred and crossfady?



william81723 said:


> In fact, I really hope your mock up can convince me,because that will let my money worth.
> Here you are!!! (and I forgot my CSS one.So add here)


Did you change the default patch?

Because in order for all of your MIDI transitions to sound "cleaner" you'd probably want/need to change a couple instrument settings, OR change the MIDI you posted.

1. Auto Divisi is on by default. Depending on the tempo of your MIDI, the note overlaps might trigger the divisi "split" and treat your melodic lines more like a quick "diad" of overlapping notes. The timings are default at 75ms at the slowest Auto Divisi. You _might_ have overlaps lasting more than that in your MIDI, again depending on tempo. Rather than change your MIDI, you could simply turn off auto divisi. Or if your DAW has an auto legato feature, you can select the MIDI notes and apply it and they can all overlap at a predefined number of ms (like 15 ms).

2. By default, the transitions change by key velocities with two crossover points from legato to port to gliss. Some of your note velocities were below the default threshold for legato and were instead switching to the portamento. You can do a few things: change the velocity crossover point to switch to port at an even lower velocity (or invert it and make port / gliss at the high end of velocities), or change the transition switcher mode from velocity to a different continuous controller, or change the MIDI velocities to trigger the default "Legato" transition instead of the Port transition.

Not sure if you already tried these things and still don't like the sound?

I'd send you my audio but I think the timing of the MIDI you uploaded may have been for another library. Because it doesn't match the audio examples you posted when MSS plays it out of the box (in terms of note timing).


----------



## Living Fossil

Noeticus said:


> How does using Stream Deck give you immediate control over the MSS lookahead feature?


I've assigned cc103 (default by Audiobro) to two buttons (values 127 and 0) to switch it on and off.
(Legato - non leg. and trem sul pont. - trem. normal are also assigned in my MSS page)
I will also add "molto vibrato" as soon as i'll need it...


----------



## Oxytoxine

Casiquire said:


> I think the MSS transitions are far better and more expressive than Elite.


Casiquire, if you don’t mind: how would you compare Elite Strings to MSS?

I very recently picked up both but consider giving Elite Strings back. It is my first „big“ VSL lib, and rarely have I been that torn. On the one hand, I am blown away by the consistency, the articulations and also the Synchron Player - fantastic! On the other hand, I also hear / feel the somewhat „sterile“ nature that I have often read about regarding VSL strings - probably one has to really make use of many many CCs to make the long articulations expressive and lively. The shorts, agile legato etc. sound fantastic and are very playable to me. I don’t know whether I am doing something wrong, but the lower registers are so anemic and weak. Not enough bass for me.

MSS is a complex beast, but I like it a lot - it’s by far the most advanced / feature rich lib I own (besides VSL), and I love love love the lookahead feature, the different section sizes and how adjustable / malleable everything is. The sound I also like, even if it can be somewhat „generic“ and not automagically expressive.

I have no clue whether this is MSS or not, but rather often I get strange behaviors in the DAW and wonder whether this could be due to the fact that MMS calculates so much under the hood. For example I am not sure whether it is a Studio One or a MMS problem, but when having several tracks with playhead enabled and using negative track delays, weird things can start to happen - stuttering, no sound at all, sometimes it also simply seems to loose the timing etc. This does not happen always, but just sometimes, and this leads me to my main question that I can not yet answer by myself because I was just playing around with it and did not yet make a whole project with MSS: does it hold up in larger projects for you?

And - with your experience - would you say that MSS, if using the small division sections, can also perform as an intimate Chamber Strings substitute? Or will you still take the Elite Strings out of the drawer for this stuff?

Sorry I don’t want to bother you with time-consuming questions, just in case you find a minute  I have learnt so much from your replies here and, without knowing you in person, kind of trust you. Thanks a lot!


----------



## william81723

Soundbed said:


> I'm seeing some portamento transitions (not legato) and possibly auto divisi "diads" when I load your MIDI and use all the default MSS patches. Could that be the reason you're hearing at least some transitions as blurred and crossfady?
> 
> 
> Did you change the default patch?
> 
> Because in order for all of your MIDI transitions to sound "cleaner" you'd probably want/need to change a couple instrument settings, OR change the MIDI you posted.
> 
> 1. Auto Divisi is on by default. Depending on the tempo of your MIDI, the note overlaps might trigger the divisi "split" and treat your melodic lines more like a quick "diad" of overlapping notes. The timings are default at 75ms at the slowest Auto Divisi. You _might_ have overlaps lasting more than that in your MIDI, again depending on tempo. Rather than change your MIDI, you could simply turn off auto divisi. Or if your DAW has an auto legato feature, you can select the MIDI notes and apply it and they can all overlap at a predefined number of ms (like 15 ms).
> 
> 2. By default, the transitions change by key velocities with two crossover points from legato to port to gliss. Some of your note velocities were below the default threshold for legato and were instead switching to the portamento. You can do a few things: change the velocity crossover point to switch to port at an even lower velocity (or invert it and make port / gliss at the high end of velocities), or change the transition switcher mode from velocity to a different continuous controller, or change the MIDI velocities to trigger the default "Legato" transition instead of the Port transition.
> 
> Not sure if you already tried these things and still don't like the sound?
> 
> I'd send you my audio but I think the timing of the MIDI you uploaded may have been for another library. Because it doesn't match the audio examples you posted when MSS plays it out of the box (in terms of note timing).


Of course I tried everything I could adjust.
We need some evidences to prove my point.
It's simple~ just listen to my DEMO audio(MSS Cello result).
You can try this setting by yourself.
No matter if "look ahead" is on or not, the result sucks either...
The transitions are really unstable....
You think the result can really convince people?


----------



## Oxytoxine

William, did you also fiddle with the transition speed knob? It looks like you have it on automatic? Also, for faster passages like this, it might help to choose a faster attack curve (Custom -> Envelope)? Finally, for me, bowed legato often works better for faster passages (just in the sense of "reacting faster / more fluid"). Sorry if all this is self-evident or completely misses the target - you probably know MSS better than I do


----------



## Living Fossil

william81723 said:


> Of course I tried everything I could adjust.


Your picture "Mss. Cello" shows a rather slow transition time (it's at the right edge of your picture). Maybe it's set to auto?
However, with the fastest transition time you'll get a good result, i've just tried it.
p.s. i would also switch to "bowed" on the 1st and 4th note.


----------



## william81723

Oxytoxine said:


> William, did you also fiddle with the transition speed knob? It looks like you have it on automatic? Also, for faster passages like this, it might help to choose a faster attack curve (Custom -> Envelope)? Finally, for me, bowed legato often works better for faster passages (just in the sense of "reacting faster / more fluid"). Sorry if all this is self-evident or completely misses the target - you probably know MSS better than I do


OK, Here is the slower one.
Same Velocity ,Same note's time intervals ,Same setting. Just only let the BPM down.
You can clearly hear the transitions have some annoying sound effects and unstable transients.


----------



## william81723

Living Fossil said:


> Your picture "Mss. Cello" shows a rather slow transition time (it's at the right edge of your picture). Maybe it's set to auto?
> However, with the fastest transition time you'll get a good result, i've just tried it.
> p.s. i would also switch to "bowed" on the 1st and 4th note.


I'm not showing a musical phrase. I just want to show how the legatos' inconsistency annoy me.
If you heard my mock-up,I believe that you can trust my mock-up skill.I really know how strings players play their instrument. I often go to studios and record my music.
I will be really happy if you can successfully refute me,because MSS is so expensive T___T


----------



## Soundbed

william81723 said:


> Of course I tried everything I could adjust.
> We need some evidences to prove my point.
> It's simple~ just listen to my DEMO audio(MSS Cello result).
> You can try this setting by yourself.
> No matter if "look ahead" is on or not, the result sucks either...
> The transitions are really unstable....
> You think the result can really convince people?


Yes I think MSS can do that line convincingly, but I needed to change a setting that isn't pictured in your screenshots.

I am still learning to work with VSL Elite and there is a lot to learn. I don't think MSS is different. There is a lot to learn and explore.

For that particular scale, I would recommend playing with the Leg Offset mode (already NOT on Auto by default). I turned it counterclockwise for this "performance" and it gets cleaner. Here's the A, B and both together examples:

B Cellos alone (I like these often more than A, not always)...
View attachment MSS Cello B scale.mp3


A Cellos alone:
View attachment MSS Cello A scale.mp3


A & B Together (10 players):
View attachment MSS Cello A+B scale.mp3


For even more definition, here is ALL the notes with the "Bowed" setting... both A&B divisi again:

View attachment MSS Cello A+B scale BOWED.mp3


These (above) were all close mics only, mod wheel in the middle except a spot around B2 and C3 where I dipped the mod wheel slightly; dynamics controlled by CC only (not the default which is CC+Vel).



Living Fossil said:


> p.s. i would also switch to "bowed" on the 1st and 4th note.


Good suggestion! Yes breaking up the phrase with a couple "Bowed" and others "Norm" keeps things interesting.



Oxytoxine said:


> William, did you also fiddle with the transition speed knob? It looks like you have it on automatic? Also, for faster passages like this, it might help to choose a faster attack curve (Custom -> Envelope)? Finally, for me, bowed legato often works better for faster passages (just in the sense of "reacting faster / more fluid"). Sorry if all this is self-evident or completely misses the target - you probably know MSS better than I do


I kept trans speed to auto for my test, but taking it off auto and moving it can also change the transitions. Of course we can also make our own custom mappings to speed for transitions in the script editor if we desire.


----------



## Living Fossil

william81723 said:


> I'm not showing a musical phrase. I just want to show how the legatos' inconsistency annoy me.


What i've told you is that you should disable "auto" for transition speed and choose a faster one.
That's the culprit.

Your image shows that it's on:






And scales over that range are in almost every case played on different strings, you will know that if you're familiar with them. That's why i'd advice to use the "bowed" articulation in between.
Even if you play a scale on one bow, when changing the string you will have the sound that occurs when a string is set to motion.

And maybe you should turn humanize off. (I'd rather assign "detune" to a controller and enable ita bit in very fast passages.


----------



## william81723

Living Fossil said:


> What i've told you is that you should disable "auto" for transition speed and choose a faster one.
> That's the culprit.
> 
> Your image shows that it's on:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And maybe you should turn humanize off. (I'd rather assign "detune" to a controller and enable ita bit in very fast passages.


It doesn't solve my problem.
Straightly say：B2->C3 , D2->E2 , B1->C1 these three transitions' volumes are way bigger than other transitions. (I don't know if there is same issue in another transition)


----------



## Living Fossil

william81723 said:


> It doesn't solve my problem.
> Straightly say：B2->C3 , D2->E2 , B1->C1 these three transitions' volumes are way bigger than other transitions. (I don't know if there is same issue in another transition)


You're aware that you can also set the transition volume?


----------



## Noeticus

Living Fossil said:


> I've assigned cc103 (default by Audiobro) to two buttons (values 127 and 0) to switch it on and off.
> (Legato - non leg. and trem sul pont. - trem. normal are also assigned in my MSS page)
> I will also add "molto vibrato" as soon as i'll need it...


Thanks for this!!!

Is there a software only version of "Stream Deck" or similiar that works on Windows?


----------



## Soundbed

william81723 said:


> OK, Here is the slower one.
> Same Velocity ,Same note's time intervals ,Same setting. Just only let the BPM down.
> You can clearly hear the transitions have some annoying sound effects and unstable transients.


here's with my settings (described above) using NORM bowing, both A+B, at a slower tempo too:

View attachment MSS Cello A+B scale slower NORM.mp3









william81723 said:


> It doesn't solve my problem.
> Straightly say：B2->C3 , D2->E2 , B1->C1 these three transitions' volumes are way bigger than other transitions. (I don't know if there is same issue in another transition)


As @Living Fossil mentioned those can be automated as transitions.

I only changed two notes, described in my previous post, it was three clicks to dip the mod wheel lane:



Soundbed said:


> mod wheel in the middle except a spot around B2 and C3 where I dipped the mod wheel slightly


Contrasted with all the mod wheel moves I "need" to do with Elite to make it feel expressive, this little volume jump was easy for me to adjust.

I hope this helps, at least a little?


----------



## Living Fossil

Noeticus said:


> Is there a software only version of "Stream Deck" or similiar that works on Windows?


No idea, I'm on Mac... (but i did buy stream deck indeed for MSS...  )


----------



## william81723

Living Fossil said:


> You're aware that you can also set the transition volume?


Yes I know it but that means every time I meet these "bigger volume" transitions,I have to turn down the volume by myself. Why cannot Audiobro just tweak these transitions more evenly? That's my sad place.


----------



## william81723

Soundbed said:


> here's with my settings (described above) using NORM bowing, both A+B, at a slower tempo too:
> 
> View attachment MSS Cello A+B scale slower NORM.mp3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As @Living Fossil mentioned those can be automated as transitions.
> 
> I only changed two notes, described in my previous post, it was three clicks to dip the mod wheel lane:
> 
> 
> Contrasted with all the mod wheel moves I "need" to do with Elite to make it feel expressive, this little volume jump was easy for me to adjust.
> 
> I hope this helps, at least a little?


Thank Soundbed you spent so much time to help me.
Your results are not bad.
I need some more time to research it again. ha... I hope I can really tame it.


----------



## Soundbed

william81723 said:


> Yes I know it but that means every time I meet these "bigger volume" transitions,I have turn down the volume by myself. Why cannot Audiobro just tweak these transitions more evenly? That's my sad place.


For me, it's a better compromise than Elite most of the time. My Elite mod wheel moves need to be pretty ... continuous. (pun intended)  

...with MSS I only did this for the example above to address that volume jump I mentioned: 







william81723 said:


> Thank Soundbed you spent so much time to help me.
> Your results are not bad.
> I need some more time to research it again. ha... I hope I can really tame it.


I hope you can enjoy your purchase. I enjoy it the more I use it.


----------



## Living Fossil

william81723 said:


> Yes I know it but that means every time I meet these "bigger volume" transitions,I have to turn down the volume by myself. Why cannot Audiobro just tweak these transitions more evenly? That's my sad place.


In any case you should should turn "auto" off if the slow transitions bother you.
And if the transition volumes bother you, write to the support or in the audiobro forum.
If there are inconsistencies they will sure address it in an update.


----------



## william81723

Living Fossil said:


> In any case you should should turn "auto" off if the slow transitions bother you.
> And if the transition volumes bother you, write to the support or in the audiobro forum.
> If there are inconsistencies they will sure address it in an update.


Thanks for good suggestions.


----------



## soulofsound

william81723 said:


> It doesn't solve my problem.
> Straightly say：B2->C3 , D2->E2 , B1->C1 these three transitions' volumes are way bigger than other transitions. (I don't know if there is same issue in another transition)


Is Auto Arranger off?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Soundbed said:


> Yes I think MSS can do that line convincingly, but I needed to change a setting that isn't pictured in your screenshots.
> 
> I am still learning to work with VSL Elite and there is a lot to learn. I don't think MSS is different. There is a lot to learn and explore.
> 
> For that particular scale, I would recommend playing with the Leg Offset mode (already NOT on Auto by default). I turned it counterclockwise for this "performance" and it gets cleaner. Here's the A, B and both together examples:
> 
> B Cellos alone (I like these often more than A, not always)...
> View attachment MSS Cello B scale.mp3
> 
> 
> A Cellos alone:
> View attachment MSS Cello A scale.mp3
> 
> 
> A & B Together (10 players):
> View attachment MSS Cello A+B scale.mp3
> 
> 
> For even more definition, here is ALL the notes with the "Bowed" setting... both A&B divisi again:
> 
> View attachment MSS Cello A+B scale BOWED.mp3
> 
> 
> These (above) were all close mics only, mod wheel in the middle except a spot around B2 and C3 where I dipped the mod wheel slightly; dynamics controlled by CC only (not the default which is CC+Vel).
> 
> 
> Good suggestion! Yes breaking up the phrase with a couple "Bowed" and others "Norm" keeps things interesting.
> 
> 
> I kept trans speed to auto for my test, but taking it off auto and moving it can also change the transitions. Of course we can also make our own custom mappings to speed for transitions in the script editor if we desire.


I think MSS sounds great here personally.


----------



## Noeticus

MSS sounds GREAT!!!


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Upgraded to SoundCloud pro, which means I was finally able to revisit this piece of mine/reupload without losing plays. Original mix was a bit whack and my reverb send made everything pan hard to left. This new mix is very very improved IMO, and MSS has never sounded so good. I mean, IMO, you cannot fuck with this sound. And I’m pretty proud of this piece 









Seven Horses


An Original Composition by Michael Oliva




soundcloud.app.goo.gl


----------



## Soundbed

Noc said:


> I dunno how chamber-like MSS’s divisi will be – the half-sections are 8/7/6/5/4 players, which is quite a bit bigger than some actual chamber strings libraries, like Spitfire Chamber Strings and its 4/3/3/3/3. Maybe a very large chamber ensemble, but closer to a reduced symphonic ensemble at that point. Though of course, tone will be important, too.





molemac said:


> Quick question, can you get a good close chamber sound just using smaller divisi with Mss ? Something like light L&Scs?





Trevor Meier said:


> I'd really like to hear more of single divisi sections, to hear how MSS sounds closer to chamber-sized





DID CHOI said:


> Also curious how it sounds if you only use one of each divisi section and whether it gives a good chamber sound


I tagged a few people who were asking about "chamber sound" in MSS with only one of the divisi sections.

Clicked in these notes late last night. Adjusted the mod wheel / automation during my lunch break:

Divisi A or B only (but still vln 1 plus vln 2, mostly playing same notes) ...:
View attachment sweetly 3 - MSS romantic chamber.mp3


BOTH A&B combined...:
View attachment sweetly 3 - MSS romantic FULL.mp3


• No external or internal reverbs applied
• Kontakt Reverb & EQ was OFF for all instruments.
• All Mix mics (no close) except Basses which are a blend of the 3 mic positions (Surround @0dB, Mix @-5dB and Close @-7dB) 
• Violins are B divisi desks in the "large chamber sized" clip; Vla, VC and CB are A divisi sections.
• _Subtle_ sweetening on buss with FabFilter ProMB > Drawmer S73 > J37 > Limiter @-0.3dB — nothing I wouldn't potentially do with any other strings library.
• Everything is 100% quantized, with a tempo map


----------



## Casiquire

Oxytoxine said:


> Casiquire, if you don’t mind: how would you compare Elite Strings to MSS?
> 
> I very recently picked up both but consider giving Elite Strings back. It is my first „big“ VSL lib, and rarely have I been that torn. On the one hand, I am blown away by the consistency, the articulations and also the Synchron Player - fantastic! On the other hand, I also hear / feel the somewhat „sterile“ nature that I have often read about regarding VSL strings - probably one has to really make use of many many CCs to make the long articulations expressive and lively. The shorts, agile legato etc. sound fantastic and are very playable to me. I don’t know whether I am doing something wrong, but the lower registers are so anemic and weak. Not enough bass for me.
> 
> MSS is a complex beast, but I like it a lot - it’s by far the most advanced / feature rich lib I own (besides VSL), and I love love love the lookahead feature, the different section sizes and how adjustable / malleable everything is. The sound I also like, even if it can be somewhat „generic“ and not automagically expressive.
> 
> I have no clue whether this is MSS or not, but rather often I get strange behaviors in the DAW and wonder whether this could be due to the fact that MMS calculates so much under the hood. For example I am not sure whether it is a Studio One or a MMS problem, but when having several tracks with playhead enabled and using negative track delays, weird things can start to happen - stuttering, no sound at all, sometimes it also simply seems to loose the timing etc. This does not happen always, but just sometimes, and this leads me to my main question that I can not yet answer by myself because I was just playing around with it and did not yet make a whole project with MSS: does it hold up in larger projects for you?
> 
> And - with your experience - would you say that MSS, if using the small division sections, can also perform as an intimate Chamber Strings substitute? Or will you still take the Elite Strings out of the drawer for this stuff?
> 
> Sorry I don’t want to bother you with time-consuming questions, just in case you find a minute  I have learnt so much from your replies here and, without knowing you in person, kind of trust you. Thanks a lot!


I don't own Elite, so if you like the sound then I'd stick with it, but if you're not finding it easy enough to get the results you want and the sound you want then it might not be for you. I know it's not for me but that's just my taste. It seems like a fantastic library for a certain group of people who like a certain sound and workflow. It's just a question of, am I part of that group?

As for MSS, there IS an interesting bug that they're working on right now where quicker legato passages with Lookahead do have an occasional glitch. On my end, the glitch is...inconsistenly consistent? It's hard to describe. It will happen at the exact same place within the music every time, but it doesn't happen to every note and it doesn't happen often. Maybe just once throughout a long line that switches back and forth between legato and non-legato multiple times. It's been very easy for me to work around for now, but they are aware of it and I would expect them to get it sorted out in time. The team at Audiobro is obsessive and their quality control is fantastic--the same can be said for VSL. Also when it comes to the library being expressive enough, my suggestion is to lean on bloom and carefully-placed Accent attacks (sometimes turning the modwheel down a bit on accented notes) during passages that need to be very expressive and lean on standard legato when you want precision. 

As far as the chamber question...I don't really want to answer it because it depends on your style of music. It sounds as though you already own the library so maybe try to write a brief sketch of the style of chamber music you can see yourself writing and just see if it's satisfying to your ears. I think it can nail a more modern-sounding chamber section but it probably can't nail every historic period. And it's no bother at all, thank you, that's very kind of you to say!


----------



## Casiquire

william81723 said:


> Of course I tried everything I could adjust.
> We need some evidences to prove my point.
> It's simple~ just listen to my DEMO audio(MSS Cello result).
> You can try this setting by yourself.
> No matter if "look ahead" is on or not, the result sucks either...
> The transitions are really unstable....
> You think the result can really convince people?


I really have no idea what's going on here. That's not my experience at all. I left the legato options including both speed and volume on their default settings and this is the result I'm getting, using my standard setup which favors the room and surround mics, first using the accented transitions, then standard, then bloom:


View attachment Test 3.mp3


One big thing I'm noticing is the way that in my example, the first note starts right on time, and in your example it does not. There must be something more going on here. I try to be fair and honest so I'm including an example of the transitions at their very worst: this is the same example using only close mics. It's not pretty, but the main issue seems to be about two thirds of the way up, there's a big bump in volume. As previously mentioned there's a good chance that his is due to players changing strings. Another point in favor of that theory is the fact that the waveform shows the volume has not changed at all. In fact the loudest moments are just before the middle point. That means the perceived change of volume is actually a change of color. It can be tamed with the modwheel, but here it is raw:

View attachment Test 3-001.mp3


But we don't have to leave it at that. Strangely enough, counterintuitively, _slowing down _the transition speed sounds a bit better. My theory is that a slower speed lets you hear more of the transition and more of the preparation for the new note can be heard before the transition even starts, and that gives the transition more definition, clarity, and less crossfading right at the crucial moment. I've found that in almost every instance where I'm not loving the transitions I'm hearing in context, slowing them down leads to improvement. With Lookahead everything lands on the beat anyway so by slowing them down all you're really doing is hearing more organic playing.

View attachment Test 3-002.mp3


My last example here is the same as the one just above, but for the last four notes I have switched to the next softest transition style. Of course that means the third example, which is Bloom, has not changed since that's the softest style available.

View attachment Test 3-003.mp3


If you're not hearing similar results I would try to bring it up in the forums. They really do listen and take feedback seriously and they might know just by listening what it is that's causing your transitions to sound so off. I hope this was at least a little helpful!


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> I really have no idea what's going on here. That's not my experience at all. I left the legato options including both speed and volume on their default settings and this is the result I'm getting, using my standard setup which favors the room and surround mics, first using the accented transitions, then standard, then bloom:
> 
> 
> View attachment Test 3.mp3
> 
> 
> One big thing I'm noticing is the way that in my example, the first note starts right on time, and in your example it does not. There must be something more going on here. I try to be fair and honest so I'm including an example of the transitions at their very worst: this is the same example using only close mics. It's not pretty, but the main issue seems to be about two thirds of the way up, there's a big bump in volume. As previously mentioned there's a good chance that his is due to players changing strings. Another point in favor of that theory is the fact that the waveform shows the volume has not changed at all. In fact the loudest moments are just before the middle point. That means the perceived change of volume is actually a change of color. It can be tamed with the modwheel, but here it is raw:
> 
> View attachment Test 3-001.mp3
> 
> 
> But we don't have to leave it at that. Strangely enough, counterintuitively, _slowing down _the transition speed sounds a bit better. My theory is that a slower speed lets you hear more of the transition and more of the preparation for the new note can be heard before the transition even starts, and that gives the transition more definition, clarity, and less crossfading right at the crucial moment. I've found that in almost every instance where I'm not loving the transitions I'm hearing in context, slowing them down leads to improvement. With Lookahead everything lands on the beat anyway so by slowing them down all you're really doing is hearing more organic playing.
> 
> View attachment Test 3-002.mp3
> 
> 
> My last example here is the same as the one just above, but for the last four notes I have switched to the next softest transition style. Of course that means the third example, which is Bloom, has not changed since that's the softest style available.
> 
> View attachment Test 3-003.mp3
> 
> 
> If you're not hearing similar results I would try to bring it up in the forums. They really do listen and take feedback seriously and they might know just by listening what it is that's causing your transitions to sound so off. I hope this was at least a little helpful!


He was using the close mics iirc. That’s why I had a simple mod wheel dip (three clicks) when the string changed timbre and got brighter. Agreed it’s less of an issue when the mics are mix or surround.

~on mobile, late, wanted to interact


----------



## borisb2

oh oh .. found somethng. Not sure if it has already been discussed:

It looks like the settings for Trans-Vol (legato setting) is not saved with the instrument in Cubase, which is quite annoying. I turned Auto off, setting it to about +5dB, enjoy the legato transition and leave it like that. When disabling the instrument in Cubase and enabling it again, the knob sits still at +5 of course but I can clearly hear the actual volume of the transition is back to 0. Just touching the knob is already enough so the volume-setting gets updated.

I'm on version 1.2 with MSS .. or is that maybe a Cubase (9.5) bug? Who can guarantee that there are not other settings that look correct in the UI but are not updated propperly?






after loading the instrument in Cubase:
View attachment mssdebug01.mp3


after "touching" the Trans Vol Setting (visually not changing any setting):
View attachment mssdebug02.mp3

legato-transition is clearly louder (my guess 5dB as that was the setting)

... that is honestly a bit concerning


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> He was using the close mics iirc. That’s why I had a simple mod wheel dip (three clicks) when the string changed timbre and got brighter. Agreed it’s less of an issue when the mics are mix or surround.
> 
> ~on mobile, late, wanted to interact


Right, but even my close mics sound significantly better. Very odd.


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> But we don't have to leave it at that. Strangely enough, counterintuitively, _slowing down _the transition speed sounds a bit better. My theory is that a slower speed lets you hear more of the transition ...


thats my experience as well .. I have Trans Speed set to 9 o clock (and Trans Volume up quite high - all Auto off) - additionally I have trans speed mapped to a CC-controller so I can tweak for fast passages or if needed


----------



## Soundbed

borisb2 said:


> oh oh .. found somethng. Not sure if it has already been discussed:
> 
> It looks like the settings for Trans-Vol (legato setting) is not saved with the instrument in Cubase, which is quite annoying. I turned Auto off, setting it to about +5dB, enjoy the legato transition and leave it like that. When disabling the instrument in Cubase and enabling it again, the knob sits still at +5 of course but I can clearly hear the actual volume of the transition is back to 0. Just touching the knob is already enough so the volume-setting gets updated.
> 
> I'm on version 1.2 with MSS .. or is that maybe a Cubase (9.5) bug? Who can guarantee that there are not other settings that look correct in the UI but are not updated propperly?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> after loading the instrument in Cubase:
> View attachment mssdebug01.mp3
> 
> 
> after "touching" the Trans Vol Setting (visually not changing any setting):
> View attachment mssdebug02.mp3
> 
> legato-transition is clearly louder (my guess 5dB as that was the setting)
> 
> ... that is honestly a bit concerning


Oh interesting … I am using Studio One and haven’t experienced that …


----------



## borisb2

Soundbed said:


> Oh interesting … I am using Studio One and haven’t experienced that …


oh dang .. so its a Cubase thing? ...

can anybody check that with Logic?

maybe I should upgrade to Cubase 11 and cross my fingers


----------



## william81723

Casiquire said:


> I really have no idea what's going on here. That's not my experience at all. I left the legato options including both speed and volume on their default settings and this is the result I'm getting, using my standard setup which favors the room and surround mics, first using the accented transitions, then standard, then bloom:
> 
> 
> View attachment Test 3.mp3
> 
> 
> One big thing I'm noticing is the way that in my example, the first note starts right on time, and in your example it does not. There must be something more going on here. I try to be fair and honest so I'm including an example of the transitions at their very worst: this is the same example using only close mics. It's not pretty, but the main issue seems to be about two thirds of the way up, there's a big bump in volume. As previously mentioned there's a good chance that his is due to players changing strings. Another point in favor of that theory is the fact that the waveform shows the volume has not changed at all. In fact the loudest moments are just before the middle point. That means the perceived change of volume is actually a change of color. It can be tamed with the modwheel, but here it is raw:
> 
> View attachment Test 3-001.mp3
> 
> 
> But we don't have to leave it at that. Strangely enough, counterintuitively, _slowing down _the transition speed sounds a bit better. My theory is that a slower speed lets you hear more of the transition and more of the preparation for the new note can be heard before the transition even starts, and that gives the transition more definition, clarity, and less crossfading right at the crucial moment. I've found that in almost every instance where I'm not loving the transitions I'm hearing in context, slowing them down leads to improvement. With Lookahead everything lands on the beat anyway so by slowing them down all you're really doing is hearing more organic playing.
> 
> View attachment Test 3-002.mp3
> 
> 
> My last example here is the same as the one just above, but for the last four notes I have switched to the next softest transition style. Of course that means the third example, which is Bloom, has not changed since that's the softest style available.
> 
> View attachment Test 3-003.mp3
> 
> 
> If you're not hearing similar results I would try to bring it up in the forums. They really do listen and take feedback seriously and they might know just by listening what it is that's causing your transitions to sound so off. I hope this was at least a little helpful!





Soundbed said:


> He was using the close mics iirc. That’s why I had a simple mod wheel dip (three clicks) when the string changed timbre and got brighter. Agreed it’s less of an issue when the mics are mix or surround.
> 
> ~on mobile, late, wanted to interact


Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Maybe I should add some stage or surround mic to give some more try.
After reading all your replies in this thread, I rethinked the point of what I complaint.
I have to say sorry for my words.
MSS's legatos are not really blurred,but what I can't satisfied with is its inconsistency I think.
And... It's very expansive. I would like to spend these money on other libraries rather than MSS.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Casiquire said:


> I don't own Elite, so if you like the sound then I'd stick with it, but if you're not finding it easy enough to get the results you want and the sound you want then it might not be for you. I know it's not for me but that's just my taste. It seems like a fantastic library for a certain group of people who like a certain sound and workflow. It's just a question of, am I part of that group?
> 
> As for MSS, there IS an interesting bug that they're working on right now where quicker legato passages with Lookahead do have an occasional glitch. On my end, the glitch is...inconsistenly consistent? It's hard to describe. It will happen at the exact same place within the music every time, but it doesn't happen to every note and it doesn't happen often. Maybe just once throughout a long line that switches back and forth between legato and non-legato multiple times. It's been very easy for me to work around for now, but they are aware of it and I would expect them to get it sorted out in time. The team at Audiobro is obsessive and their quality control is fantastic--the same can be said for VSL. Also when it comes to the library being expressive enough, my suggestion is to lean on bloom and carefully-placed Accent attacks (sometimes turning the modwheel down a bit on accented notes) during passages that need to be very expressive and lean on standard legato when you want precision.
> 
> As far as the chamber question...I don't really want to answer it because it depends on your style of music. It sounds as though you already own the library so maybe try to write a brief sketch of the style of chamber music you can see yourself writing and just see if it's satisfying to your ears. I think it can nail a more modern-sounding chamber section but it probably can't nail every historic period. And it's no bother at all, thank you, that's very kind of you to say!


Thank you so much for taking the time to share your impression and experiences! Very helpful 

Interesting, I will join their forum to read about this bug. This glitch is also for me, as you say, inconsistently consistent. But as you wrote: they are extremely dedicated and I am sure that a fix will be out as soon as possible. I am very impressed with their attitude and customer support. Thanks again and happy music making. Best, Oxy


----------



## Oxytoxine

I am sorry to spam this thread, but I would like to thank all the great contributors: 

@Casiquire, @Soundbed

and all the others. Your videos and efforts are highly appreciated and tremendously helpful for newbies like me.


----------



## Oxytoxine

borisb2 said:


> oh dang .. so its a Cubase thing? ...
> 
> can anybody check that with Logic?
> 
> maybe I should upgrade to Cubase 11 and cross my fingers


Unfortunately I don't have Cubase 11 and can not test it for you. But I just tried with Cubase 10.5 - does not seem to happen here. But who knows - I do not always check whether the visuals always really represent the underlying settings - maybe this is even related to the glitches some (including me) are experiencing. Good luck!


----------



## borisb2

Oxytoxine said:


> Unfortunately I don't have Cubase 11 and can not test it for you. But I just tried with Cubase 10.5 - does not seem to happen here. But who knows - I do not always check whether the visuals always really represent the underlying settings - maybe this is even related to the glitches some (including me) are experiencing. Good luck!


hmm, that would be a good reason to upgrade - I'm on Cubase 9.5 ..

to reproduce the bug:
- start on empty project, load MSS Violins 1 in Kontakt, disable auto divisi, disable Auto for legato transitions, turn Trans Speed to a slow setting (like 9 o clock) and Trans-Vol all the way up to +6dB and play 2 notes while listening carefully to the legato transition - sounds great!
- disable the instrument in Cubase, enable the instrument again, open the UI: the Trans Vol Knob will still be at +6 but the legato transition will be a lot quieter (assuming back to +0dB), resulting in a sucking effect
-seems to happen only with Violins1 which is unfortunate as its the most important one 

And turning Auto on on Trans-Vol doesnt work for me as I think around 0dB (which the Auto sets it to mostly) its just too quiet and transitions sound not as convincing.. with these louder legato volume setting (and slower speed) I think the violins sounds really, really good

bummmeeer ...

@dxmachina fyi


----------



## Zanshin

borisb2 said:


> hmm, that would be a good reason to upgrade - I'm on Cubase 9.5 ..



I'd download another daw to try it in, like Reaper maybe - before you upgrade Cubase.


----------



## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> I'd download another daw to try it in, like Reaper maybe - before you upgrade Cubase.


I do believe you can use Reaper for free. It's a smart move on their part to offer free and very cheap options because i wound up liking it and haven't even considered any other DAWs since trying it out


----------



## borisb2

Zanshin said:


> I'd download another daw to try it in, like Reaper maybe - before you upgrade Cubase.


hmm .. me not liking another DAW

unless its Emagic Logic Audio on Windows 

but when Oxytoxine already got different behaviour in 10.5 it must be a Cubase 9.5 thing .. @Oxytoxine , you did test it the way I described it above, correct? My life now depends on you .. kidding, at some point I need to upgrade anyway

.. but I will have a look at Reaper as well


----------



## Zanshin

I am saying to try and test on YOUR computer. It could be a YOUR computer thing lol.

EDIT: For example, if it works in Reaper, sure, upgrade Cubase. If it has the same problem in Reaper, then it's something local, like your download/install of MSS, or your Kontakt install etc.


----------



## dxmachina

@borisb2 Don't want to use VI-C as Audiobro support, so feel free to follow up elsewhere, but I couldn't reproduce this here (yet), albeit without Cubase 9.5. I'll see if I still have a running install for that version somewhere tomorrow. What version of Kontakt?

That said, something doesn't quite add up when you mentioned only happening with Violins 1. All the instruments use a unified engine architecture, so generally behaviors should be identical across instruments.

What I can say with certainty is that order of operations might have an enormous impact here. Kontakt engine runs quite a bit in the audio thread that you don't always expect. So if the instrument is disabled and you move UI elements (mouse, switch, automation, or CC) in some cases it will appear that things are functional when in fact none of the gears are actually turning behind the scenes. Not saying that's what happened here... but if you (for instance) disabled an instrument prior to turning the transition volume, those actions would not register properly.


----------



## borisb2

dxmachina said:


> That said, something doesn't quite add up when you mentioned only happening with Violins 1. All the instruments use a unified engine architecture, so generally behaviors should be identical across instruments.


thank for replying .. I can doublecheck again but I'm pretty sure I didnt hear that behaviour on the other patches .. will report .. and yes, of course can email support as well

Kontakt 6.6.0 by the way .. disabled VST3 though (for other reasons)


----------



## borisb2

dxmachina said:


> That said, something doesn't quite add up when you mentioned only happening with Violins 1. All the instruments use a unified engine architecture, so generally behaviors should be identical across instruments.


you're right - I was wrong.. looks like I overlooked the other instruments.

So I can confirm: all instruments show the same behaviour (as in: the setting for Legato Trans-Vol doesnt get saved with Cubase 9.5 (Kontakt 6.6.0) )



dxmachina said:


> but if you (for instance) disabled an instrument prior to turning the transition volume, those actions would not register properly.



to clarify: there is no tweak after disabling the instrument. I only tweaked the settings within the UI (with the instrument active of course), then after that closing the UI, disabled the instrument and enabling it again (to replicate the saving procedure)

EDIT: updated to Cubase 11 .. can reproduce same effect easily. damn!

Must be a "my computer thing" then .. at least I'm now on Cubase 11 ..hooray


----------



## Oxytoxine

borisb2 said:


> hmm .. me not liking another DAW
> 
> unless its Emagic Logic Audio on Windows
> 
> but when Oxytoxine already got different behaviour in 10.5 it must be a Cubase 9.5 thing .. @Oxytoxine , you did test it the way I described it above, correct? My life now depends on you .. kidding, at some point I need to upgrade anyway
> 
> .. but I will have a look at Reaper as well


Hey Boris! Sorry, I am out of the house and away from the DAW until tomorrow (work) - will test further tomorrow. Hopefully, the other guys / replies could already help you out - nice that dxmachina is on the problem. Good luck in the meanwhile!


----------



## paulwr

borisb2 said:


> you're right - I was wrong.. looks like I overlooked the other instruments.
> 
> So I can confirm: all instruments show the same behaviour (as in: the setting for Legato Trans-Vol doesnt get saved with Cubase 9.5 (Kontakt 6.6.0) )


As a work around, add automation lanes for those controls and have them set there the way you want them. Put it in your template that way and you should be fine.


----------



## dxmachina

@borisb2 I took a look again this morning with fresh eyes and do see what you're running into. It's already fixed internally and should hopefully go out officially next week (depends on the NI schedule) in a small update.

As @paulwr mentioned, if you want to disable the "Auto" volume button and set a static value, doing so with automation or chased CC should do it. 

There's also another thing that you can do right now which I wanted to mention since it's kind of a hidden easter-egg feature anyway. If you own Kontakt Full you can open the instrument, then the script editor, and then switch to the first script slot. You'll find the speed curves that control the "Auto" modes, including one for Transition Volume. You can customize this _exactly_ to your liking if you desire (including just a flat static value)... and then if you keep the "Auto" mode turned on it should play exactly as you like even after disabling/enabling. 

That said, we'll of course have an official (and transparent) solution shortly.


----------



## Soundbed

Did someone say AudioBro is obsessive about these sorts of things? :D


----------



## borisb2

dxmachina said:


> You'll find the speed curves that control the "Auto" modes, including one for Transition Volume. You can customize this _exactly_ to your liking if you desire


Thats awesome.. thanks so much for this!!


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi

AudioBro's Modern libraries need PDF manuals really bad.


----------



## Casiquire

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> AudioBro's Modern libraries need PDF manuals really bad.


Which one? MSS has a very detailed one accessible right in Kontakt


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi

Casiquire said:


> Which one? MSS has a very detailed one accessible right in Kontakt


Brass. I don't have any of their libraries yet, but I'm considering to but their choir, modern strings and brass. Before buying something I'm always checking out manuals as there's much more details and you can be sure about what you're buying.

I tried to find those manuals in the web, but found only one - for their old string library. Not even for Modern Strings, which is weird as you say that there's one.

Btw, if it won't bother you, could you please upload it somewhere and share the link here?


----------



## Casiquire

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> Brass. I don't have any of their libraries yet, but I'm considering to but their choir, modern strings and brass. Before buying something I'm always checking out manuals as there's much more details and you can be sure about what you're buying.
> 
> I tried to find those manuals in the web, but found only one - for their old string library. Not even for Modern Strings, which is weird as you say that there's one.
> 
> Btw, if it won't bother you, could you please upload it somewhere and share the link here?


It wouldn't bother me any, but if they didn't post manuals publicly I would want to respect that. Maybe reach out to their support?


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi

Casiquire said:


> It wouldn't bother me any, but if they didn't post manuals publicly I would want to respect that. Maybe reach out to their support?


Maybe they just didn't bother 😄

I don't think they didn't put manuals on their website due to "privacy" reasons. Manuals are just manuals, they can help a user and/or potential buyer, but I can't see how they can have something worth hiding.

Ok, maybe they'll share it here...

Upd: somebody already sent me those manuals. Thank you, stranger 💋


----------



## Noc

Slightly OT, but since it was brought up, this is a pet peeve of mine that’s been brewing for a while …

It always bugs me when a sample library dev doesn’t post their manuals publicly and instead requires you to buy & download their libraries first. Manuals don’t just tell you how to use the libraries you already have, they’re also a great way to help you determine whether a library is right for you before you purchase it – what all patches are included, their detailed functionality, etc. It’s the next best thing to “try before you buy”, and more than once I’ve made the decision to buy or not buy a library (especially more expensive ones) based on the info found in publicly available manuals, usually when I’m looking to see whether a particular instrument or articulation is included. So whenever a dev doesn’t make their manuals available, it just feels like a way to force people to buy their libraries first, which doesn’t really inspire trust.

I’m not saying that’s the intent or anything, and certainly not with Audiobro. But that is how it comes across sometimes. It just makes no sense to me not to give potential customers all the info you possibly can about your product to help them make up their minds.

(The only argument I can think of in favor of not making this documentation publicly available is as a deterrent to piracy … but then, if someone’s downloading things for free anyway, it’s an entirely moot point. All it really does is frustrate potential paying customers.)

Anyway, apologies for the sorta-rant. Just a moderate grievance I wanted to air out. Make your manuals available on your sites for prospective clients, devs! Trust me, they’ll appreciate it, and you might get a few more sales to boot.


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> Slightly OT, but since it was brought up, this is a pet peeve of mine that’s been brewing for a while …
> 
> It always bugs me when a sample library dev doesn’t post their manuals publicly and instead requires you to buy & download their libraries first. Manuals don’t just tell you how to use the libraries you already have, they’re also a great way to help you determine whether a library is right for you before you purchase it – what all patches are included, their detailed functionality, etc. It’s the next best thing to “try before you buy”, and more than once I’ve made the decision to buy or not buy a library (especially more expensive ones) based on the info found in publicly available manuals, usually when I’m looking to see whether a particular instrument or articulation is included. So whenever a dev doesn’t make their manuals available, it just feels like a way to force people to buy their libraries first, which doesn’t really inspire trust.
> 
> I’m not saying that’s the intent or anything, and certainly not with Audiobro. But that is how it comes across sometimes. It just makes no sense to me not to give potential customers all the info you possibly can about your product to help them make up their minds.
> 
> (The only argument I can think of in favor of not making this documentation publicly available is as a deterrent to piracy … but then, if someone’s downloading things for free anyway, it’s an entirely moot point. All it really does is frustrate potential paying customers.)
> 
> Anyway, apologies for the sorta-rant. Just a moderate grievance I wanted to air out. Make your manuals available on your sites for prospective clients, devs! Trust me, they’ll appreciate it, and you might get a few more sales to boot.


While i totally agree, i just didn't think it was my place to make that call. But yes everyone should absolutely have them public


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> While i totally agree, i just didn't think it was my place to make that can. But yes everyone should absolutely have them public


Oh, my post wasn’t at all meant as a critique of your decision not to send another user the manuals yourself or anything! Sorry if it came across that way; I was just speaking generally.


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi

While we are here, does AudioBro have any plans on making Woodwinds library?


----------



## ChristianM

Faruh Al-Baghdadi said:


> Pendant que nous sommes ici, AudioBro a-t-il l'intention de créer une bibliothèque Woodwinds?


It seems yes


----------



## Noeticus

The MSS 1.2.2 Update is out!


----------



## Casiquire

Looks to me like the update didn't yet fix the fast-note-legato glitch I've intermittently seen here, and I'm waiting for that fix before I upload a bunch of what I've been working on. The update was smooth and fast at least.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Noeticus said:


> The MSS 1.2.2 Update is out!


Any Changelog information yet somewhere?


----------



## Noc

Wunderhorn said:


> Any Changelog information yet somewhere?


This is from the MSS v1.2.2 announcement email I got earlier:


----------



## Soundbed

solo cello fun tonight... not sure which version I'm on, I think it's 1.2


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> solo cello fun tonight... not sure which version I'm on, I think it's 1.2



That sounds fantastic! Much more in line with my experience with the library than what we heard in the solo cello thread.

I'm not sure which update did it, but one recent update shows you the current version numbers when you hit the logo at the bottom


----------



## b_elliott

Noeticus said:


> What do UFOs, my avatar, and Barry Gray have in common?
> 
> Hint:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barry Gray - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and...
> 
> 
> Welcome


How's this for a reply to an ancient posting of yours? Look waaaaaaaaay back to tab #35 of 235!

I couldn't resist responding since an old TV series I watched as a child (Thunderbirds and Joe 90) just flashed in my mind as I was looking for a theme for a Zappa-Stravinsky-metal song currently underway. 

I recalled the puppet tv sci-fi show Thunderbirds which I loved but not who the composer was; @55 years later I discover it's Barry Gray and you were the soul to give him a shout-out on vi. So hello! 

Maybe in short order I'll have my _Firebirds Are Go_ posted. It may not be Barry Gray-ish but it'll be fun. 
Cheers, Bill


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> solo cello fun tonight... not sure which version I'm on, I think it's 1.2



Nice! Which mix settings are u on in mss/mic blend? Which R4 setting? When I did the close mic blended with a bit of the stage and had it on bloom, it came out way wonkier than this.


----------



## Noeticus

b_elliott said:


> How's this for a reply to an ancient posting of yours? Look waaaaaaaaay back to tab #35 of 235!
> 
> I couldn't resist responding since an old TV series I watched as a child (Thunderbirds and Joe 90) just flashed in my mind as I was looking for a theme for a Zappa-Stravinsky-metal song currently underway.
> 
> I recalled the puppet tv sci-fi show Thunderbirds which I loved but not who the composer was; @55 years later I discover it's Barry Gray and you were the soul to give him a shout-out on vi. So hello!
> 
> Maybe in short order I'll have my _Firebirds Are Go_ posted. It may not be Barry Gray-ish but it'll be fun.
> Cheers, Bill


Hello. 

My favorite Barry Gray music is from "Journey to the Far Side of the Sun" (in the UK - "Doppelgänger") (1969) and the UFO TV Series (1970 -1971).

Cheers!


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> Nice! Which mix settings are u on in mss/mic blend? Which R4 setting? When I did the close mic blended with a bit of the stage and had it on bloom, it came out way wonkier than this.


MSS Mix mics at Unity, Close mic at -6dB in Kontakt.
No Kontakt effects or reverb.
Norm (not Bloom).
(Sent to R4 on an effects buss at 100% and the buss was at -6dB in the mixer.)
R4 was on ‘Complex Large Hall 2 (Wide)’

But … I don’t think it was the reverb that makes it sound so good, any decent reverb probably sounds fine. The cello itself sounds pretty good to me. I was compare / contrasting with Tina Guo, Spitfire Solo, CSSS, Solo, BDT, Berlin First Chairs.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> MSS Mix mics at Unity, Close mic at -6dB in Kontakt.
> No Kontakt effects or reverb.
> Norm (not Bloom).
> (Sent to R4 on an effects buss at 100% and the buss was at -6dB in the mixer.)
> R4 was on ‘Complex Large Hall 2 (Wide)’
> 
> But … I don’t think it was the reverb that makes it sound so good, any decent reverb probably sounds fine. The cello itself sounds pretty good to me. I was compare / contrasting with Tina Guo, Spitfire Solo, CSSS, Solo, BDT, Berlin First Chairs.


Thanks brother, always coming in with the quick replies! MSS is definitely a great library.


----------



## Living Fossil

Soundbed said:


> R4 was on ‘Complex Large Hall 2 (Wide)’
> 
> But … I don’t think it was the reverb that makes it sound so good, any decent reverb probably sounds fine.


Couldn't it be that the R4 reverb with its modulated notch EQ could be a good thing in this case, considering the fact that there are always resonant buildups with sampled strings?
(I had an EQ automation orgy on a track featuring MSS [lots of sul tasto - from the Expansion] where i did indeed lots of manual cuts of resonances)


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> MSS Mix mics at Unity, Close mic at -6dB in Kontakt.
> No Kontakt effects or reverb.
> Norm (not Bloom).
> (Sent to R4 on an effects buss at 100% and the buss was at -6dB in the mixer.)
> R4 was on ‘Complex Large Hall 2 (Wide)’
> 
> But … I don’t think it was the reverb that makes it sound so good, any decent reverb probably sounds fine. The cello itself sounds pretty good to me. I was compare / contrasting with Tina Guo, Spitfire Solo, CSSS, Solo, BDT, Berlin First Chairs.


oh btw, mix mics at unity just means 0 I assume ya?

So you have the mix & close mics on, but no stage or surround?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Baronvonheadless said:


> oh btw, mix mics at unity just means 0 I assume ya?
> 
> So you have the mix & close mics on, but no stage or surround?


Not @Soundbed, but work is slow right now so I'm bored 

Correct about unity! And for the mic selections, the Mix mic is a pre-mix of stage and surround. AudioBro states that, since everyone prefers a different amount of close mic, they built it this way to strike the balance between saving resources and allowing flexibility. I suppose if one wants more stage or surround than what's offered in the mix, it could be dialed up with that respective mic; but, at that point, you may as well just opt for using the three mic positions on their own instead of the mix.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Here is a similar set up as Soundbeds MSS settings, except I used Seventh Heaven's Boston Hall at nearly all the way wet, bus'd to the same -6db setting.

Yeah, I think it sounds very good with the mix mic on, I suppose my example in the solo cello thread was weird cuz it was the close mic with a bit of the stage & it was on bloom so it was doing weird dips on the transitions.

However, I tested bloom with the mix mic and close and it was no longer doing that.

Anyways, here's this for people who want to hear more of MSS

Points if u know the rough theme I hammered out 
View attachment MSS Solo Cello Test .mp3


----------



## b_elliott

Noeticus said:


> ,,,My favorite Barry Gray music is from "Journey to the Far Side of the Sun" (in the UK - "Doppelgänger") (1969) and the UFO TV Series (1970 -1971).


Thanks. I am lining up my weekend playlist now. I will add these along with _Thunderbirds are Go _plus the newer _Team America World Police_ which my old college buddy informs me has naughtier puppets. 
Should be a blast. 
Cheers from Canada.


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> nearly all the way wet,


Why nearly?

If the dry signals are in one channel (of your mixer) generally the fully wet channels are in another channel. The dry are sent to the fx buss. There’s no need to have the effects buss also have some dry. Generally. 

If the mixed result is “too wet” then either turn down the send to the effects buss (the reverb’s input) or turn down the buss fader on the mixer (the reverb’s output). 

At least, this is the typical way a reverb send is configured (when it’s not an insert).


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> Why nearly?
> 
> If the dry signals are in one channel (of your mixer) generally the fully wet channels are in another channel. The dry are sent to the fx buss. There’s no need to have the effects buss also have some dry. Generally.
> 
> If the mixed result is “too wet” then either turn down the send to the effects buss (the reverb’s input) or turn down the buss fader on the mixer (the reverb’s output).
> 
> At least, this is the typical way a reverb send is configured (when it’s not an insert).


I just liked how it effected the tone. Didn’t smooth it out all the way. No reason other than that.


----------



## paulwr

Baronvonheadless said:


> I just liked how it effected the tone. Didn’t smooth it out all the way. No reason other than that.


I have a long time friend who is both and excellent mixer and now concentrates on mastering. (35+ yrs) He likes to run the fx at about 50% and send to that, he swears it sounds better. I've always done it 100% wet at the fx but have lately been trying his way. I won't swear to either way, they've both worked for me. Anyway, you are in good company with your method!


----------



## Baronvonheadless

paulwr said:


> I have a long time friend who is both and excellent mixer and now concentrates on mastering. (35+ yrs) He likes to run the fx at about 50% and send to that, he swears it sounds better. I've always done it 100% wet at the fx but have lately been trying his way. I won't swear to either way, they've both worked for me. Anyway, you are in good company with your method!


Yeah for sure, I don't believe in hard rules. It just depends on the effect you're going for. Sometimes I like how the send boosts the volume, like parallel compression (even if its not compressed) it is just another way of experimenting with volume I find.

I turned the volume knob on mss down, put it thru a bus send, had the reverb on 85-90%, and used the volume boost of the bus send to increase the volume back up. 

It's all about experimenting with the chain of effects sometimes too...but sometimes you'll quickly learn or remember why some things are standard as well.

I won't say there isn't a WRONG way to do something, but there can be alternative methods or right ways to do something slightly off kilter. No hard rules


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> Here is a similar set up as Soundbeds MSS settings, except I used Seventh Heaven's Boston Hall at nearly all the way wet, bus'd to the same -6db setting.
> 
> Yeah, I think it sounds very good with the mix mic on [...]
> 
> Anyways, here's this for people who want to hear more of MSS
> 
> Points if u know the rough theme I hammered out
> View attachment MSS Solo Cello Test .mp3


Yes sounds good. Not sure what the theme is though.


----------



## Nimrod7

Soundbed said:


> solo cello fun tonight... not sure which version I'm on, I think it's 1.2


That was great! Love this library.
It will be lovely to see a tutorial on how to (properly) use soothe in orchestral music.


----------



## Soundbed

Nimrod7 said:


> That was great! Love this library.
> It will be lovely to see a tutorial on how to (properly) use soothe in orchestral music.


Thank you! I don't know if everyone could agree on "properly" but for low string resonances I usually start with the preset in the Orchestral group called "Contain the low mid orchestra" and play with the mix and depth a bit.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Sorry to reanimate this thread, but I have a burning question and did not want to open a new one. 

Do you also perceive MSS as laggy? 

I have finally found the time to explore MSS further and like so many things about it (it is in many ways the most comprehensive lib I own) , but I experience a huge hindering block: extreme lagginess. The whole lib seems to react sooo slow to keyboard input that I wonder whether I somehow changed some settings or whether this is the normal behavior. 

I do not mean the legato delay (which is nicely dealt with the look ahead feature) only. 


*1 - short articulations delay*

I am not able to play in e.g. some regular patterns / ostinati at 100 BPM or so to the grid without messing up the timing completely. Of course I realize that this has to do with the fact that the samples have been cut in this way to provide more realistic attacks and can be easily corrected after the fact with the genius look ahead feature / corresponding track delays. 

I am just wondering whether I do something wrong or whether this is also your experience? It is really so severe that I can not play in the most basic stuff I regularly do with most other libs (which partly also have this „predelay“ but I can „play to the grid“ in most cases after a short training period) without heavy quantizing. 

So, do you also experience this, and is there somewhere a setting where I can tighten the samples during the recording process? I tried all the „usual suspects“ settings, but to no avail. 

*2 - legato for faster passages*

I am not able to perform faster legato lines. Not ultrafast runs, just regular lines - for example with Chris Hein Ensemble Strings, Afflatus, CS2, and even some of Spitfire etc. I can play way faster legato lines, with MSS I can not achieve this, even with legato transition speed set to the max value. It’s the same with both bowed and regular legato (that this does not work with bloom, which is meant for slow, emotional lines, makes sense). So I think my question is twofold: 

a) How do you adjust the settings for regular to fast legato lines? I tried all the transition speed settings, a stronger attack setting etc., to no avail. 

b) Or is this lib simply not meant for „life playing“ and is better suited for mouse input? 

It is important for me to say that I in no way want to inject negativity - it’s a great lib; the sound is growing on me and seems to be very malleable; it’s extremely powerful and in many ways a joy to use. I wan’t to tame this wonderful beast! I would just like to make sure that I do not do something stupidly wrong. As it is, I really can not make the music I would like with it and would appreciate some input just in case I have overseen some obvious settings. 

I did not see „lagginess“ mentioned as a negative, so I wonder whether you simply do not experience this or if yes how you deal with it? 

Thanks a lot!


----------



## Soundbed

Oxytoxine said:


> Sorry to reanimate this thread, but I have a burning question and did not want to open a new one.
> 
> Do you also perceive MSS as laggy?
> 
> I have finally found the time to explore MSS further and like so many things about it (it is in many ways the most comprehensive lib I own) , but I experience a huge hindering block: extreme lagginess. The whole lib seems to react sooo slow to keyboard input that I wonder whether I somehow changed some settings or whether this is the normal behavior.
> 
> I do not mean the legato delay (which is nicely dealt with the look ahead feature) only.
> 
> 
> *1 - short articulations delay*
> 
> I am not able to play in e.g. some regular patterns / ostinati at 100 BPM or so to the grid without messing up the timing completely. Of course I realize that this has to do with the fact that the samples have been cut in this way to provide more realistic attacks and can be easily corrected after the fact with the genius look ahead feature / corresponding track delays.
> 
> I am just wondering whether I do something wrong or whether this is also your experience? It is really so severe that I can not play in the most basic stuff I regularly do with most other libs (which partly also have this „predelay“ but I can „play to the grid“ in most cases after a short training period) without heavy quantizing.
> 
> So, do you also experience this, and is there somewhere a setting where I can tighten the samples during the recording process? I tried all the „usual suspects“ settings, but to no avail.
> 
> *2 - legato for faster passages*
> 
> I am not able to perform faster legato lines. Not ultrafast runs, just regular lines - for example with Chris Hein Ensemble Strings, Afflatus, CS2, and even some of Spitfire etc. I can play way faster legato lines, with MSS I can not achieve this, even with legato transition speed set to the max value. It’s the same with both bowed and regular legato (that this does not work with bloom, which is meant for slow, emotional lines, makes sense). So I think my question is twofold:
> 
> a) How do you adjust the settings for regular to fast legato lines? I tried all the transition speed settings, a stronger attack setting etc., to no avail.
> 
> b) Or is this lib simply not meant for „life playing“ and is better suited for mouse input?
> 
> It is important for me to say that I in no way want to inject negativity - it’s a great lib; the sound is growing on me and seems to be very malleable; it’s extremely powerful and in many ways a joy to use. I wan’t to tame this wonderful beast! I would just like to make sure that I do not do something stupidly wrong. As it is, I really can not make the music I would like with it and would appreciate some input just in case I have overseen some obvious settings.
> 
> I did not see „lagginess“ mentioned as a negative, so I wonder whether you simply do not experience this or if yes how you deal with it?
> 
> Thanks a lot!


I'm not in the studio, but do you have the lookahead function "off" when playing live?

(It's the dot in the lower left.)


----------



## Oxytoxine

Soundbed said:


> I'm not in the studio, but do you have the lookahead function "off" when playing live?
> 
> (It's the dot in the lower left.)


Thanks for chiming in Soundbed! Yes, it's turned off - otherwise it would really be unplayable


----------



## Soundbed

Oxytoxine said:


> Thanks for chiming in Soundbed! Yes, it's turned off - otherwise it would really be unplayable


Ok I see what you mean. I launched in standalone Kontakt (to avoid any additional lags from a DAW buffer) and these two settings will make shorts and legato snappy and responsive again:

Legato - turn off Auto and dial "up" the Trans Spd knob (clockwise) to the fastest:

(I think I mention this in one of my videos but I'd forgotten it lol)

PS - switching to "bowed" will also give each note a bit of a stronger "attack" during Legato:








Shorts - turn off Auto and dial "up" the Tighten knob (clockwise) to the fastest:


----------



## Casiquire

Yes! I was going to mention that tighten knob as well.

The library seems very well optimized for penciling in so i never have issues there. That's the main strength of the library which put it right on the top of my go-to strings. If you're playing live, Soundbed has great advice above. I would add to that, if you want to play polyphonic legato or auto divisi, there is more delay. There isn't really a way around it. If not, make sure auto divisi is switched off


----------



## Living Fossil

paulwr said:


> He likes to run the fx at about 50% and send to that, he swears it sounds better.


It does not sound better. It just makes the original signal louder and thereby triggers the louder->better button.
If you like the "effect", just raise the volume of your original signal, since there is no other voodoo involved.
Other than that, with sending a portion of the original signal through the bus, you risk ugly phasing effects once you insert other effects to that bus.


----------



## paulwr

Never had the phasing since the dry sound it identical, but I personally have been trying both ways am not hearing a different tone, so I've reverted to 100% on the fx itself.


----------



## Living Fossil

paulwr said:


> Never had the phasing since the dry sound it identical, but I personally have been trying both ways am not hearing a different tone, so I've reverted to 100% on the fx itself.


As long as there is no further processing involved, there are of course no phasing issues, since it's simply an addition of the signal. 
However, there are three possible sources for unwanted phasings:
1) the send channel has inserts (e.g. an EQ) after the non-100%wet-effect.
2) the send channel is routed to a bus (e.g. an effect bus) that has additional processing
3) the instrument channel itself is routed to a bus that has additional processing.

So, you have nothing to gain (besides some gain), but 3 possible ways to get problems.


----------



## Casiquire

Living Fossil said:


> So, you have nothing to gain (besides some gain), but 3 possible ways to get problems.


That was my impression too. I'm no pro mixer by any stretch, but it sounded like more chances to mess things up and in digital mixing absolutely no benefit


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Living Fossil said:


> As long as there is no further processing involved, there are of course no phasing issues, since it's simply an addition of the signal.
> However, there are three possible sources for unwanted phasings:
> 1) the send channel has inserts (e.g. an EQ) after the non-100%wet-effect.
> 2) the send channel is routed to a bus (e.g. an effect bus) that has additional processing
> 3) the instrument channel itself is routed to a bus that has additional processing.
> 
> So, you have nothing to gain (besides some gain), but 3 possible ways to get problems.


Interesting. Good to know ✌🏼


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Btw I’ve not noticed any real lag with legato once transition speed is set off auto and turned all the way up. However I usually leave it on auto unless I’m trying to do very fast lines and play to it. It’s like riding a horse. Gotta become one with it and the results are so realistic imo. 

With the shorts the tightness knob is your friend. But if neither of those is helping you I wonder what’s going on.


----------



## samplin

Oxytoxine said:


> Sorry to reanimate this thread, but I have a burning question and did not want to open a new one.
> 
> Do you also perceive MSS as laggy?
> 
> I have finally found the time to explore MSS further and like so many things about it (it is in many ways the most comprehensive lib I own) , but I experience a huge hindering block: extreme lagginess. The whole lib seems to react sooo slow to keyboard input that I wonder whether I somehow changed some settings or whether this is the normal behavior.
> 
> I do not mean the legato delay (which is nicely dealt with the look ahead feature) only.
> 
> 
> *1 - short articulations delay*
> 
> I am not able to play in e.g. some regular patterns / ostinati at 100 BPM or so to the grid without messing up the timing completely. Of course I realize that this has to do with the fact that the samples have been cut in this way to provide more realistic attacks and can be easily corrected after the fact with the genius look ahead feature / corresponding track delays.
> 
> I am just wondering whether I do something wrong or whether this is also your experience? It is really so severe that I can not play in the most basic stuff I regularly do with most other libs (which partly also have this „predelay“ but I can „play to the grid“ in most cases after a short training period) without heavy quantizing.
> 
> So, do you also experience this, and is there somewhere a setting where I can tighten the samples during the recording process? I tried all the „usual suspects“ settings, but to no avail.
> 
> *2 - legato for faster passages*
> 
> I am not able to perform faster legato lines. Not ultrafast runs, just regular lines - for example with Chris Hein Ensemble Strings, Afflatus, CS2, and even some of Spitfire etc. I can play way faster legato lines, with MSS I can not achieve this, even with legato transition speed set to the max value. It’s the same with both bowed and regular legato (that this does not work with bloom, which is meant for slow, emotional lines, makes sense). So I think my question is twofold:
> 
> a) How do you adjust the settings for regular to fast legato lines? I tried all the transition speed settings, a stronger attack setting etc., to no avail.
> 
> b) Or is this lib simply not meant for „life playing“ and is better suited for mouse input?
> 
> It is important for me to say that I in no way want to inject negativity - it’s a great lib; the sound is growing on me and seems to be very malleable; it’s extremely powerful and in many ways a joy to use. I wan’t to tame this wonderful beast! I would just like to make sure that I do not do something stupidly wrong. As it is, I really can not make the music I would like with it and would appreciate some input just in case I have overseen some obvious settings.
> 
> I did not see „lagginess“ mentioned as a negative, so I wonder whether you simply do not experience this or if yes how you deal with it?
> 
> Thanks a lot!


Second the turn off auto and maybe use bowed… I actually turned the legato up to the fastest for note entry and forgot , and it sounded great a few days later so i left it there.


----------



## Oxytoxine

Thank you all for trying to help, much appreciated!

Short version: I am dumb, it was user error / conflicting automation 

Longer version:

Yes, I was aware of the tighten knob (CC15) and worded yesterdays question poorly because I had no clue what it might be. Part of my confusion was that it (the tighten knob) seemed to behave strangely despite me manually engaging it.

What I did not realize until this morning is that I had conflicting automation (CC15 already assigned to another function in another lib that I was trying out) and had already recorded some automation with it that then, depending on where in the project I tried to add MSS, randomly interfered with the CCs), so no wonder the timing behaved extremely funky. Same story for the transition speed etc.

I feel so dumb now and want to sink into the earth out of shame 🙈 Thanks for bearing with me! I will delete my above post to not cause any confusion in case someone stumbles over it.

*So: clear user error on my side - everything is behaving as it should now, and MSS feels buttery smooth!* Hooray, I am so happy 

Thanks again and sorry for the confusion! Now I have to get my trophy for the most embarrassing basic user error (I feel like someone that calls the hotline to complain that the TV is not working, and then the Helpdesk asks: Is the power cable plugged in? Eeeehm….)

Best

Oxy


----------



## Oxytoxine

Soundbed said:


> Ok I see what you mean. I launched in standalone Kontakt (to avoid any additional lags from a DAW buffer) and these two settings will make shorts and legato snappy and responsive again:
> 
> Legato - turn off Auto and dial "up" the Trans Spd knob (clockwise) to the fastest:
> 
> (I think I mention this in one of my videos but I'd forgotten it lol)
> 
> PS - switching to "bowed" will also give each note a bit of a stronger "attack" during Legato:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shorts - turn off Auto and dial "up" the Tighten knob (clockwise) to the fastest:


Thank you so much Soundbed for taking the time to even illustrate with pictures! I am so sorry that I stole your time with a simple mistake of mine.


----------



## Casiquire

Oxytoxine said:


> Thank you all for trying to help, much appreciated!
> 
> Short version: I am dumb, it was user error / conflicting automation
> 
> Longer version:
> 
> Yes, I was aware of the tighten knob (CC15) and worded yesterdays question poorly because I had no clue what it might be. Part of my confusion was that it (the tighten knob) seemed to behave strangely despite me manually engaging it.
> 
> What I did not realize until this morning is that I had conflicting automation (CC15 already assigned to another function in another lib that I was trying out) and had already recorded some automation with it that then, depending on where in the project I tried to add MSS, randomly interfered with the CCs), so no wonder the timing behaved extremely funky. Same story for the transition speed etc.
> 
> I feel so dumb now and want to sink into the earth out of shame 🙈 Thanks for bearing with me! I will delete my above post to not cause any confusion in case someone stumbles over it.
> 
> *So: clear user error on my side - everything is behaving as it should now, and MSS feels buttery smooth!* Hooray, I am so happy
> 
> Thanks again and sorry for the confusion! Now I have to get my trophy for the most embarrassing basic user error (I feel like someone that calls the hotline to complain that the TV is not working, and then the Helpdesk asks: Is the power cable plugged in? Eeeehm….)
> 
> Best
> 
> Oxy


I'm glad it's working for you!!

On my end penciling in works really well for most of the library, but I'm not totally sure how to pencil in the prerecorded phrases to get a smooth consistent result. How are you all doing it? The scales come out with some odd overlaps. Should i pencil them in overlapping "legato" style?


----------



## Oxytoxine

Casiquire said:


> I'm glad it's working for you!!
> 
> On my end penciling in works really well for most of the library, but I'm not totally sure how to pencil in the prerecorded phrases to get a smooth consistent result. How are you all doing it? The scales come out with some odd overlaps. Should i pencil them in overlapping "legato" style?


Hi Casiquire

I play all scales live at 200 BPM 😁

No, seriously: I don’t think that I can be of much help here, as I am new to the lib and only messed around a bit with the scale mode (which seems to be enormously powerful, but also complex - at least for people like me with no formal training in music theory).

If I understand your question correctly: no, it seems to be important to NOT overlap the notes if you would like to stitch scales fluently together. Also, depending on the desired outcome, turning off the „accent“ button might of course be a good idea if you don’t want to have an accent on the destination note. 

I suspect that the solution might be in the various *playback modes*. Did you already mess with them? If I understand correctly, using the *hold modes* (chromatic, diatonic etc.) should result in scales only playing during the length of the midi note and no overlaps. 

A further possibility might be the smooth knob, which seems to influence the phrasing of the scale but also seems to somehow influence the endings of the scales (but I have not yet tested it enough to have a clear picture of what is actually happening). Maybe it's just this what you are hearing?

Sorry if all of this does not address your question and was stating the obvious - just a shot in the dark 

Hope you can make it work!


----------



## Casiquire

Oxytoxine said:


> Hi Casiquire
> 
> I play all scales live at 200 BPM 😁
> 
> No, seriously: I don’t think that I can be of much help here, as I am new to the lib and only messed around a bit with the scale mode (which seems to be enormously powerful, but also complex - at least for people like me with no formal training in music theory).
> 
> If I understand your question correctly: no, it seems to be important to NOT overlap the notes if you would like to stitch scales fluently together. Also, depending on the desired outcome, turning off the „accent“ button might of course be a good idea if you don’t want to have an accent on the destination note.
> 
> I suspect that the solution might be in the various *playback modes*. Did you already mess with them? If I understand correctly, using the *hold modes* (chromatic, diatonic etc.) should result in scales only playing during the length of the midi note and no overlaps.
> 
> A further possibility might be the smooth knob, which seems to influence the phrasing of the scale but also seems to somehow influence the endings of the scales (but I have not yet tested it enough to have a clear picture of what is actually happening). Maybe it's just this what you are hearing?
> 
> Sorry if all of this does not address your question and was stating the obvious - just a shot in the dark
> 
> Hope you can make it work!


I've done very, very little messing around with the scales and octaves so far, so I'm just as fresh as you are! Thanks. My first impression was no overlaps also, until i penciled it in and none of the options got me the result i wanted, and until i watched the scales and runs video on the Audiobro YouTube channel where it looked like he was playing the scales by hand. I have to imagine it's easier to play things like that in legato style, and the playback sounded flawless. I'll keep messing with it.

I have tried the smooth knob and to my ears it creates more of a smear and softness to the run but doesn't seem to affect the timing. I have similar questions about the timing of the ostinatos which have a built in note-off logic i haven't quite figured out yet. I may ask for more info in their forums


----------



## samplin

Oxytoxine said:


> Thank you all for trying to help, much appreciated!
> 
> Short version: I am dumb, it was user error / conflicting automation
> 
> Longer version:
> 
> Yes, I was aware of the tighten knob (CC15) and worded yesterdays question poorly because I had no clue what it might be. Part of my confusion was that it (the tighten knob) seemed to behave strangely despite me manually engaging it.
> 
> What I did not realize until this morning is that I had conflicting automation (CC15 already assigned to another function in another lib that I was trying out) and had already recorded some automation with it that then, depending on where in the project I tried to add MSS, randomly interfered with the CCs), so no wonder the timing behaved extremely funky. Same story for the transition speed etc.
> 
> I feel so dumb now and want to sink into the earth out of shame 🙈 Thanks for bearing with me! I will delete my above post to not cause any confusion in case someone stumbles over it.
> 
> *So: clear user error on my side - everything is behaving as it should now, and MSS feels buttery smooth!* Hooray, I am so happy
> 
> Thanks again and sorry for the confusion! Now I have to get my trophy for the most embarrassing basic user error (I feel like someone that calls the hotline to complain that the TV is not working, and then the Helpdesk asks: Is the power cable plugged in? Eeeehm….)
> 
> Best
> 
> Oxy


No problem... Mss has so many options that it's easy to do something like this...


----------



## [email protected]

Despite the fact that I bought _Modern Scoring Strings_ right after they have been released I never got the time to set them up in a profound way. While creating one "Matsre Expression Map" with all the articulations I need and want I wonder:

Does it really make sense to have _bowed_ portamento and glissando? How das this actually work?
I guess it's only about how to connect the first note to the preceding articulation and then continuing with "normal" portamento, right?
And I have another question about the short notes: Are the different version of "tightness" also real recordings or emulations?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Casiquire

[email protected] said:


> Despite the fact that I bought _Modern Scoring Strings_ right after they have been released I never got the time to set them up in a profound way. While creating one "Matsre Expression Map" with all the articulations I need and want I wonder:
> 
> Does it really make sense to have _bowed_ portamento and glissando? How das this actually work?
> I guess it's only about how to connect the first note to the preceding articulation and then continuing with "normal" portamento, right?
> And I have another question about the short notes: Are the different version of "tightness" also real recordings or emulations?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I could be wrong, but port and gliss may override the rebow. Also I'm not too keen on their wording. The bowed is less an actual recorded rebow and more of just an accent (i think it used to be called "accent"). I'm not at my computer now but if there actually is a difference in sound, I'd bet that it's just splicing in accented sustains.

As for the tightness knob, no, the samples are just trimmed. They're trimmed very well though; i always have the knob on "auto", unlike the Legato which i think sounds best at longer settings


----------



## Soundbed

What @Casiquire said


----------



## lettucehat

With holiday sales just around the corner (I'm not counting the days, I promise..) I was wondering if anyone's come across, or made themselves, some more lyrical tracks with MSS? I could not quite part with the cash during the intro period but with the considerable improvements since release I'm still very interested. I've just seen a lot of technical demos, effects, lots of demonstrations of the shorts for sure.. the couple of examples on the product page are nice but I'm always looking for more.


----------



## Casiquire

lettucehat said:


> With holiday sales just around the corner (I'm not counting the days, I promise..) I was wondering if anyone's come across, or made themselves, some more lyrical tracks with MSS? I could not quite part with the cash during the intro period but with the considerable improvements since release I'm still very interested. I've just seen a lot of technical demos, effects, lots of demonstrations of the shorts for sure.. the couple of examples on the product page are nice but I'm always looking for more.


I'll pm you with something I've been working on


----------



## novaburst

lettucehat said:


> With holiday sales just around the corner (I'm not counting the days, I promise..) I was wondering if anyone's come across, or made themselves, some more lyrical tracks with MSS? I could not quite part with the cash during the intro period but with the considerable improvements since release I'm still very interested. I've just seen a lot of technical demos, effects, lots of demonstrations of the shorts for sure.. the couple of examples on the product page are nice but I'm always looking for more.


I have heard some very good music from Hollywood strings and Hollywood brass and many more library's, I went and purchased Hollywood strings and brass but still can't make it sound no where near what I have heard .

Then I just realized some users of sample library's are just more skillful and dedicated than others, I remember hearing I very good performance of an orchestra library and was about to purchase it then I found out they used kontakts own orchestra and realized I already have it but still can't make it sound as good as I heard it in that track,

While it's nice and gives a lot of inspiration when hearing a muckup from a certain library there is no guarantee that when we get ahold of that library that we can make it sound the same.

In fact we may even hate the library, but that does not make the library bad because we can't handle it.


----------



## John Longley

novaburst said:


> I have heard some very good music from Hollywood strings and Hollywood brass and many more library's, I went and purchased Hollywood strings and brass but still can't make it sound no where near what I have heard .
> 
> Then I just realized some users of sample library's are just more skillful and dedicated than others, I remember hearing I very good performance of an orchestra library and was about to purchase it then I found out they used kontakts own orchestra and realized I already have it but still can't make it sound as good as I heard it in that track,
> 
> While it's nice and gives a lot of inspiration when hearing a muckup from a certain library there is no guarantee that when we get ahold of that library that we can make it sound the same.
> 
> In fact we may even hate the library, but that does not make the library bad because we can't handle it.


Truth bomb.


----------



## Casiquire

novaburst said:


> I have heard some very good music from Hollywood strings and Hollywood brass and many more library's, I went and purchased Hollywood strings and brass but still can't make it sound no where near what I have heard .
> 
> Then I just realized some users of sample library's are just more skillful and dedicated than others, I remember hearing I very good performance of an orchestra library and was about to purchase it then I found out they used kontakts own orchestra and realized I already have it but still can't make it sound as good as I heard it in that track,
> 
> While it's nice and gives a lot of inspiration when hearing a muckup from a certain library there is no guarantee that when we get ahold of that library that we can make it sound the same.
> 
> In fact we may even hate the library, but that does not make the library bad because we can't handle it.


Such a great point. I do think they're light on more expressive and lyrical examples though so it's a fair request, but dang you're so right, i open Hollywood Strings and nothing ever lands on the beat or responds the way I'd like


----------



## Futchibon

I just found out the legato extension for MSS is available standalone. It's currently 299 with loyalty discount (I have Genesis) but is it likely to come down further during BF?

I really like the sound of the regular MSS but won't have enough as I want to get Afflatus and Pacific, but the legato extension looks pretty great.

I don't suppose anyone has any con sord examples? I've fallen in love with the cond sord from Pacific but it doesn't have legato and was wondering if the CS from MSS would pair nicely:


----------



## lettucehat

Casiquire said:


> I'll pm you with something I've been working on


Thanks!


novaburst said:


> I have heard some very good music from Hollywood strings and Hollywood brass and many more library's, I went and purchased Hollywood strings and brass but still can't make it sound no where near what I have heard .
> 
> Then I just realized some users of sample library's are just more skillful and dedicated than others, I remember hearing I very good performance of an orchestra library and was about to purchase it then I found out they used kontakts own orchestra and realized I already have it but still can't make it sound as good as I heard it in that track,
> 
> While it's nice and gives a lot of inspiration when hearing a muckup from a certain library there is no guarantee that when we get ahold of that library that we can make it sound the same.
> 
> In fact we may even hate the library, but that does not make the library bad because we can't handle it.


This is all true of course, but I look at demos more as a way to assess a library's ceiling rather than its its floor, if that makes sense. Like there are a lot of libraries that are great on paper or in technical walkthroughs, but never quite convince me in musical context. I'm hoping to hear more of MSS in lyrical contexts because I'm not worried about how good its shorts, runs, etc. sound.


----------



## Casiquire

Futchibon said:


> I just found out the legato extension for MSS is available standalone. It's currently 299 with loyalty discount (I have Genesis) but is it likely to come down further during BF?
> 
> I really like the sound of the regular MSS but won't have enough as I want to get Afflatus and Pacific, but the legato extension looks pretty great.
> 
> I don't suppose anyone has any con sord examples? I've fallen in love with the cond sord from Pacific but it doesn't have legato and was wondering if the CS from MSS would pair nicely:



It's a very different sound. It still sounds pretty and emotive but also very tight and with a lot less vibrato


----------



## [email protected]

@Casiquire and @Soundbed Thank you very much for your answers! I am quite caught up in my day job at the moment so it may take some time go get back to comments and answers but I try to anwser them.


----------



## soulofsound

Casiquire said:


> It's a very different sound. It still sounds pretty and emotive but also very tight and with a lot less vibrato


I think it would work well with the Pacific sordinos in the example @Futchibon posted.


----------



## Noc

Hey y’all,

I’ve finally gotten around to exploring MSS recently after having bought it months ago. As part of my testing, I mocked up a little 50-second section from the Lord of the Rings OST and ran it through LASS, EWHS, and MSS using the same automation. I also recorded versions with MSS at 0%, 50% and 75% brightness. (Would’ve included the 100% brightness one too but I can only attach 5 files, whoops.)

Note that I didn’t put a whole lot of effort into automation and timing and mixing and all that (LASS is poorly balanced, EWHS’s legatos have weird rhythms, MSS’s violins get way too loud partway through, etc.); this was just a quick & dirty test to see how MSS sounded compared to other libraries playing the exact same thing. But folks have asked for more demos, so hopefully this will help a little.

LASS (separate A/B/C patches, Pixelpoet legato trick, “Fellowship/Ring” color, +4 dB high shelf around 12 KHz in Pro-Q3):
View attachment LASS.mp3


EWHS (Play, not HOOPUS; “Powerful System” Sus & Leg Slur patches, all default settings):
View attachment EWHS.mp3


MSS (A/B split patches, max vibrato + molto, mostly norm. + a few cresc. attacks, Trans Spd at 0, Close [-3.0 dB] and Stage [0 dB] mics):
(0% brightness)
View attachment MSS (0% brightness).mp3

(50% brightness)
View attachment MSS (50% brightness).mp3

(75% brightness)
View attachment MSS (75% brightness).mp3


Overall, between this and other tests, I’m _very_ happy with MSS. Sounds amazingly fluid and smooth, especially with the controllable attacks. And once you’ve turned off the reverbs and the Mix mic (the Surround mic kinda muddies up the sound IMO), the tone is just great. The transition speed knob also really brings out that “connectedness” in the legato, easily on par with LASS with the Pixelpoet trick. MSS has just officially kicked LASS out of my template (with the sole exception of LASS’s solo double bass).

Now if we can just convince Audiobro to include LASS-like “colors” for sordino/sul tasto/sul pont. to all articulations in MSS …


----------



## Batrawi

Noc said:


> Hey y’all,
> 
> I’ve finally gotten around to exploring MSS recently after having bought it months ago. As part of my testing, I mocked up a little 50-second section from the Lord of the Rings OST and ran it through LASS, EWHS, and MSS using the same automation. I also recorded versions with MSS at 0%, 50% and 75% brightness. (Would’ve included the 100% brightness one too but I can only attach 5 files, whoops.)
> 
> Note that I didn’t put a whole lot of effort into automation and timing and mixing and all that (for instance, EWHS’s legatos have weird rhythms, and MSS’s violins get way too loud halfway through); this was just a quick & dirty test to see how MSS sounded compared to other libraries playing the exact same thing. But folks have asked for more demos, so hopefully this will help a little.
> 
> LASS (separate A/B/C patches, Pixelpoet legato trick, “Fellowship/Ring” color, +4 dB high shelf around 12 KHz in Pro-Q3):
> View attachment LASS.mp3
> 
> 
> EWHS (Play, not HOOPUS; “Powerful System” Sus & Leg Slur patches, all default settings):
> View attachment EWHS.mp3
> 
> 
> MSS (A/B split patches, max vibrato + molto, mostly norm. + a few cresc. attacks, Trans Spd at 0, Close [-3.0 dB] and Stage [0 dB] mics):
> (0% brightness)
> View attachment MSS (0% brightness).mp3
> 
> (50% brightness)
> View attachment MSS (50% brightness).mp3
> 
> (75% brightness)
> View attachment MSS (75% brightness).mp3
> 
> 
> Overall, between this and other tests, I’m _very_ happy with MSS. Sounds amazingly fluid and smooth, especially with the controllable attacks. And once you’ve turned off the reverbs and the Mix mic (the Surround mic kinda muddies up the sound IMO), the tone is just great. The transition speed knob also really brings out that “connectedness” in the legato, easily on par with LASS with the Pixelpoet trick. MSS has just officially kicked LASS out of my template (with the sole exception of LASS’s solo double bass).
> 
> Now if we can just convince Audiobro to include LASS-like “colors” for sordino/sul tasto/sul pont. to all articulations in MSS …


I have a feeling that something could have went wrong when you rendered these audios?... as if notes overlaps (legatos) have been totally ignored or something coz everything sounds like straight sustains! I also have all 3 libs and I'm sure none of their legatos sound like this


----------



## Noc

Batrawi said:


> I have a feeling that something could have went wrong when you rendered these audios?... as if notes overlaps (legatos) have been totally ignored or something coz everything sounds like straight sustains! I also have all 3 libs and I'm sure none of their legatos sound like this


What you’re hearing is indeed mostly sustains; I transcribed the score straight without adding any extra legato, since this was mostly a tonal comparison:


----------



## Batrawi

Noc said:


> What you’re hearing is indeed mostly sustains; I transcribed the score straight without adding any extra legato, since this was mostly a tonal comparison:



aha thanks for clarifying 👍


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> Hey y’all,
> 
> I’ve finally gotten around to exploring MSS recently after having bought it months ago. As part of my testing, I mocked up a little 50-second section from the Lord of the Rings OST and ran it through LASS, EWHS, and MSS using the same automation. I also recorded versions with MSS at 0%, 50% and 75% brightness. (Would’ve included the 100% brightness one too but I can only attach 5 files, whoops.)
> 
> Note that I didn’t put a whole lot of effort into automation and timing and mixing and all that (LASS is poorly balanced, EWHS’s legatos have weird rhythms, MSS’s violins get way too loud partway through, etc.); this was just a quick & dirty test to see how MSS sounded compared to other libraries playing the exact same thing. But folks have asked for more demos, so hopefully this will help a little.
> 
> LASS (separate A/B/C patches, Pixelpoet legato trick, “Fellowship/Ring” color, +4 dB high shelf around 12 KHz in Pro-Q3):
> View attachment LASS.mp3
> 
> 
> EWHS (Play, not HOOPUS; “Powerful System” Sus & Leg Slur patches, all default settings):
> View attachment EWHS.mp3
> 
> 
> MSS (A/B split patches, max vibrato + molto, mostly norm. + a few cresc. attacks, Trans Spd at 0, Close [-3.0 dB] and Stage [0 dB] mics):
> (0% brightness)
> View attachment MSS (0% brightness).mp3
> 
> (50% brightness)
> View attachment MSS (50% brightness).mp3
> 
> (75% brightness)
> View attachment MSS (75% brightness).mp3
> 
> 
> Overall, between this and other tests, I’m _very_ happy with MSS. Sounds amazingly fluid and smooth, especially with the controllable attacks. And once you’ve turned off the reverbs and the Mix mic (the Surround mic kinda muddies up the sound IMO), the tone is just great. The transition speed knob also really brings out that “connectedness” in the legato, easily on par with LASS with the Pixelpoet trick. MSS has just officially kicked LASS out of my template (with the sole exception of LASS’s solo double bass).
> 
> Now if we can just convince Audiobro to include LASS-like “colors” for sordino/sul tasto/sul pont. to all articulations in MSS …


@Batrawi beat me to it! But for just a tonal comparison, all three libraries seem to have their place, even all these years later. Switch on the legatos and lookahead though and i think MSS would easily win. Even just the sustains have some pretty convincing moments here


----------



## Noc

I’m thinking of taking one of my recent pieces that uses LASS and re-recording it with MSS (this time taking the time to finesse the automation and mixing properly, unlike with the above examples). It has lots of legato and dynamic range, too, so it would be a better A/B between the two libraries. We’ll see how long that takes me …


----------



## ansthenia

I'm struggling a lot with volume inconsistencies with this library. They seem to plague Violins 2 more than any other section, where sometimes one note to the next can seem like a whole dynamic step up. I'm spending much more time than I'd like to fixing all the randomly loud notes.

The updated look-ahead feature is a godsend though, my goodness, completely removes the hassle of correcting note/legato timings and delays. This term gets thrown around a lot in sample library marketing, but I consider this feature to be a game changer.


----------



## Noc

ansthenia said:


> The updated look-ahead feature is a godsend though, my goodness, completely removes the hassle of correcting note/legato timings and delays.


This calls up a question I wanted to ask, for anyone who uses Look-Ahead: Does it take into account the Trans Spd knob setting for y’all, especially when it’s at 0 (slowest)? I tried it briefly, not exhaustively I’ll admit, and it didn’t really seem to work well for me. I might have done something wrong though.


----------



## Casiquire

ansthenia said:


> I'm struggling a lot with volume inconsistencies with this library. They seem to plague Violins 2 more than any other section, where sometimes one note to the next can seem like a whole dynamic step up. I'm spending much more time than I'd like to fixing all the randomly loud notes.
> 
> The updated look-ahead feature is a godsend though, my goodness, completely removes the hassle of correcting note/legato timings and delays. This term gets thrown around a lot in sample library marketing, but I consider this feature to be a game changer.


Hmm i don't have the same experience. What i did notice though, the shorts overall seem to be louder than i think they should. According to Audiobro nobody has reported this, but to my ears it's significant. I turned the shorts level down on all my instruments and resaved the patches that way, so I never have to deal with it again. The nice thing? You can do that with this library with any articulation.


----------



## Soundbed

ansthenia said:


> I'm struggling a lot with volume inconsistencies with this library. They seem to plague Violins 2 more than any other section, where sometimes one note to the next can seem like a whole dynamic step up. I'm spending much more time than I'd like to fixing all the randomly loud notes


Seems like something you could point out to AudioBro. They are active on their own forum. Or an email to their support with specific examples. I hadn’t noticed it.

I tend to adjust the dynamic ranges though; click the gear icon to the lower right of the main mod wheel control on the GUI.


----------



## Soundbed

Noc said:


> This calls up a question I wanted to ask, for anyone who uses Look-Ahead: Does it take into account the Trans Spd knob setting for y’all, especially when it’s at 0 (slowest)? I tried it briefly, not exhaustively I’ll admit, and it didn’t really seem to work well for me. I might have done something wrong though.


If you have an example you could post it here or send to AudioBro on their forum or email their support. I have been keeping things on Auto more and more (not 0=slowest).


----------



## Noc

Soundbed said:


> If you have an example you could post it here or send to AudioBro on their forum or email their support. I have been keeping things on Auto more and more (not 0=slowest).


Thanks, but I ended up figuring out the problem – it seems to be with Sibelius, not MSS. Using Look-Ahead resulted in weird dynamic/volume swings and other hiccups, as if the dynamics were programmed way later relative to the notes. I realized in the end that although I set the notation on a negative delay to compensate for Look-Ahead’s 400 ms latency, for some reason the dynamics and other automation weren’t pushed back too, so effectively they were badly desynced from the notes – _i.e._, the dynamics were triggering 0.4s later than the notes themselves, wreaking all kinds of havoc. I can’t find a solution for this other than to literally write the dynamics at positions that are 400 ms early as well, which would be hell to write and to make look good, so in the end I gave up. Call it a limitation with Sibelius, I guess.

Not a biggie though; I’ve been manually editing note starts to compensate for various libraries’ latency for ages anyway, including for LASS; I just have to do it for MSS too. Oh well. It still sounds awesome when the work is done, which is all I really care about. 

In other news, I’m still working on creating some more finessed LASS/MSS comparisons for this thread. Planning to test various case uses – fast shorts, slow quiet legato, emotional soloists, etc. Taking a while, as I’m still tweaking MSS as I go to fit it in with my workflow (even with batch resave those massive patches take ages to load & unload, especially in bulk), but it’s going well.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Honestly checking out some of the 1.1 stuff, MSS sounds good, at least comparable if not sometimes preferable to Pacific for instance, to my ear. Time to re-acquaint myself with this library; Black Friday is coming, there a few flavors of strings I’m trying to scoop and I think this one’s worth another look.


----------



## Noc

I previously mentioned I was mocking up some comparison videos to contrast the tone and handling of MSS with LASS, and finally, here they are:

One comparing soft legato:





Spoiler: “Soft Legato” video description



This video features a soft, flowing legato passage from “Inhuman Suite”. One thing that jumps out to me is how MSS has much smoother “flow” than LASS, especially (but not exclusively) at low dynamics. You can hear audible volume dips between slurred notes with LASS, whereas the volume is much more level in MSS. MSS (with all effects/sends/processing off) also has a cleaner, more neutral tone to my ears. Additionally, MSS’s increased dynamic volume range means diminuendos to silence are now more reliable without requiring extra smoothing with CC11 (I found LASS’s violins in particular had this issue).

————————————

SECTIONS —

0:00 – Intro
0:04 – LASS only
0:56 – LASS + full orchestra
1:51 – MSS only
2:46 – MSS + full orchestra

————————————

LASS SETTINGS —
» Patches: Violins I A/B/C, Violins II A/B/C, Violas A/B/C, Cellos A/B/C
» Combination of legato and portamento
» Pixelpoet legato trick (https://is.gd/JVTHww)
» “Fellowship Ring” color

MSS SETTINGS —
» Patches: Violins I A/B, Violins II A/B, Violas A/B, Cellos A/B
» Combination of legato and portamento
» Transition speed knob set to 0
» Brightness: 50%
» Mics: Close = -3.0 dB, Stage = 0 dB

ADDITIONAL PROCESSING —
» Parallel compression in Pro-C2
» EQ & mastering in Ozone 9

————————————

Listen to the original “Inhuman Suite” here:





One comparing sordino solo cello and flautando (SSS)/sul tasto (MSS) backing strings:





Spoiler: “Legato Sordino Solo Cello + Flaut./Sul Tasto Strings” video description



This excerpt from “Sunken Horizons (Main Theme)” (from the Sunken Horizons audiobook OST) features a sordino solo cello playing the melody with lots of legato over backing strings playing flautando. I used LASS for the solo cello and Spitfire Symphonic Strings (SSS) for the flautando ensemble strings. MSS doesn’t have flautando, so I used used sul tasto (from the MSS Expanded Legato expansion) with the Brightness at 75% in an attempt to match the tone of SSS’s flautando.

One thing I noticed is MSS’s solo cello has something of a harsh, scratchy tone at some dynamics and registers that is absent in LASS’s solo cello(s), though this isn’t heard much in this piece.

————————————

SECTIONS —

0:00 – Intro
0:04 – LASS/SSS + guitar
0:54 – MSS + guitar

————————————

LASS SETTINGS —
» Patches: Solo cello (×2)
» Combination of legato and portamento
» “Sordino-izer” color

SSS SETTINGS —
» Patches: Violins I/Violins II/Violas/Cellos/Basses “Core Techniques”
» Release & Tightness at 50%
» Mics: Tree only

MSS SETTINGS —
» Patches: Solo Cello (×2), Violins I A/B, Violins II A/B, Violas A/B, Cellos A/B, Basses A/B (all Expanded Legato)
» Combination of legato and portamento
» Transition speed knob set to 0
» Brightness: 50% for solo cellos, 75% for sul tasto backing strings
» Mics: Close = -3.0 dB, Stage = 0 dB

ADDITIONAL PROCESSING —
» EQ & mastering in Ozone 9

————————————

Listen to the original “Sunken Horizons (Main Theme)” here:





And one featuring a whole lotta shorts, namely staccatos and bass pizz.:





Spoiler: “Rhythmic Shorts” video description



This is a shorts demonstration taken from “The Chosen (The Crystal Empire Pt. 1)” (from the Sunken Horizons audiobook OST), with a whole bunch of bouncy staccatos from the strings and with the basses grooving along with pizzicatos. The original LASS strings use the “Bat Man” color for a nice dark tone (fitting with the rest of the soundtrack), so I turned the Brightness down to 0 in MSS to try and match it as close as possible.

I think the MSS shorts sound great, but it’s immediately clear they lack the aggressiveness of LASS’s shorts (which are rather famous for their bite), even with the close mic blended in at unity with the stage mic. A bigger issue is with MSS’s bass pizzicatos; they don’t just lack the sharpness of their LASS counterparts, they sound outright washed-out and muddled. I’m not sure whether this is more or less accurate to real-life bass pizzicatos when compared to LASS’s, but it makes it hard to achieve the same bouncy feel that you get effortlessly with LASS.

————————————

SECTIONS —

0:00 – Intro
0:04 – LASS only
1:07 – LASS + full orchestra
2:16 – MSS only
3:20 – MSS + full orchestra

————————————

LASS SETTINGS —
» Patches: Violins I Full Leg, Violins I Full Stacc., Violins II A/B/C Leg, Violins II A/B/C Stacc., Violas Full Stacc., Cellos Full Stacc., Basses Full Leg, Basses A/B/C Pizz.
» “Bat Man” color

MSS SETTINGS —
» Patches: Violins I A/B, Violins II A/B, Violas A/B, Cellos A/B, Basses A/B
» Varying Tightness values for staccatos
» Brightness: 0%
» Mics: Close = 0 dB, Stage = 0 dB

ADDITIONAL PROCESSING —
» Parallel compression in Pro-C2
» EQ & mastering in Ozone 9

————————————

Listen to the original “The Chosen (The Crystal Empire Pt. 1)” here:





I’ve included details about patches used, settings and other info in each video’s descriptions, but here are some quick takeaways (in the next post due to character count limits):


----------



## Noc

Noc said:


> I’ve included details about patches used, settings and other info in each video’s descriptions, but here are some quick takeaways (in the next post due to character count limits):



» MSS’s legato and portamento (and glissando, though this one isn’t used in these videos) are excellent, especially with the transition speed knob turned all the way down. Easily as good as, if not superior to, LASS with the Pixelpoet legato trick. They especially shine when you take a solo instrument for a spin with quick legato passages – you can practically hear the player’s hand sliding around the fingerboard.

» MSS is remarkably smooth and more flowing, both with regular sustains and legato, than LASS. In particular, LASS had these noticeable volume “dips” between connected notes that always somewhat annoyed me; in some pieces I’ve had to disable legato to prevent the instrument from sounding like it was repeatedly dropping out of the mix with every new note. Not the case with MSS.

» I think MSS’s tone, once you load the “unprocessed” snapshots or else manually remove all the reverbs/sends/etc. and use only the Close and Stage mics (the Surround mic, which is included in the Mix mic, adds a bit of muddiness I’m not a fan of), is perfectly lovely and relatively neutral. It’s maybe not as flat as SSS or EWHS, but these tweaks eliminate all the “stuffiness” and other tonal issues that I can hear.

» MSS handles dynamic changes much more smoothly. When riding CC1 in LASS, especially with softer and more gradual crescendos/diminuendos, the volume would sometimes “catch” and then jolt up/down noticeably, requiring extra CC11 automation to smooth over. This is eliminated in MSS.

» This isn’t really particular to MSS as many other modern libraries are the same way, but I just wanna mention how much nicer it is to have all articulations in one patch rather than having to load a dozen single-articulation split patches per instrument to get everything you need.

» The only slight weakness on MSS’s part so far, in my testing at least, is the shorts, which indeed lack the edge that LASS’s shorts are famous for. This is improved slightly by bringing up the Close mic, but it’s still far from the bite of LASS’s shorts. They’re still perfectly good shorts on their own, but if you want something more aggressive you may need to blend in some LASS.

» My biggest issue so far would be with MSS’s bass pizzicatos, which sound really washed out to me, especially compared to their LASS counterparts. I had to massively increase their volume in the third video to make them audible in the mix, and even then they aren’t nearly as defined as LASS’s.

Overall – MSS is fantastic and endlessly tweakable, and as I mentioned before, it’s already replaced LASS in my template. I’ll probably be using or blending in some LASS now and again if I want to add some edge to the shorts, or if I just _really_ want that 3-part divisi for a particular project, but otherwise I’m very happy switching over to MSS.

Now I hope Audiobro doesn’t update MSS anytime soon cuz I spent _so many hours_ customizing my patches and I don’t wanna have to do it all over again


----------



## Casiquire

Thanks for the comparison! It's nice to hear the tonal differences and how much more easily MSS blends with the rest of the orchestra. My only gripe is about calling it soft legato while not playing it legato (edit, i misread, legato was used in the examples)! But yeah it's remarkable how well MSS can just absorb into a work.

I really appreciate you involving the solo strings too. That cello similarly just sounded natural in the rest of the production


----------



## Noc

Agreed on how well MSS blends in. It’s a joy to work with so far.



Casiquire said:


> My only gripe is about calling it soft legato while not playing it legato!


What do you mean? Both libraries definitely play the slurred passages with legato, even if it’s not the most pronounced at _*pp*_ in the first vid.


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> Agreed on how well MSS blends in. It’s a joy to work with so far.
> 
> 
> What do you mean? Both libraries definitely play the slurred passages with legato, even if it’s not the most pronounced at _*pp*_ in the first vid.


Oh i misread your post, you were just saying glissando wasn't used. I was very confused, thanks for clearing that up!


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> Oh i misread your post, you were just saying glissando wasn't used. I was very confused, thanks for clearing that up!


Ah, no worries! Indeed, the first video uses legato, the second video uses a both legato and portamento for some extra expressiveness, and neither use glissando. Maybe I should rephrase that line for clarity …


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> Ah, no worries! Indeed, the first video uses legato, the second video uses a both legato and portamento for some extra expressiveness, and neither use glissando. Maybe I should rephrase that line for clarity …


Nah that was my bad, i think it's pretty clear. I'm still watching my way through all of them too but the shorts video seems like MSS might have slightly less scratchiness, but it does still have some bite, and just sits in the mix so nicely


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> Nah that was my bad, i think it's pretty clear. I'm still watching my way through all of them too but the shorts video seems like MSS might have slightly less scratchiness, but it does still have some bite, and just sits in the mix so nicely


That shorts piece (the original, I mean) was the first time I used an all-staccato passage like that, and I was amazed at how well they cut through the full mix, even with everything else going on. The way all the rhythms and counterpoints jump out just makes me really happy. MSS definitely loses out a bit in that department, though again, it certainly doesn’t sound bad! Just different. Depends what you’re going for with a particular piece.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I wish there were more examples featuring the molto. This is one library where a demo patch would be huge, like the Vista 5 violins. I want so badly to like this library, but I have to make sure I can get the mics and of course the legato how I want. I’m going to have to do some sleuthing in this thread :S


----------



## Casiquire

Russell Anderson said:


> I wish there were more examples featuring the molto. This is one library where a demo patch would be huge, like the Vista 5 violins. I want so badly to like this library, but I have to make sure I can get the mics and of course the legato how I want. I’m going to have to do some sleuthing in this thread :S


The molto is pretty subtle. I'd gladly take an extra layer of vibrato for those heavier moments. You've probably heard the molto plenty of times already; it doesn't reach schmaltzy levels


----------



## Noeticus

Looking forward to LASS 3.0

And, "Modern Scoring Winds"... one far off day.


----------



## youngpokie

Is there anyone in this thread who has both Berlin Strings and MSS? I would be grateful for a comparison of dynamic range. 

There is a slider in Berlin Strings that allows to rescale the dynamics and make the _p_ and _pp_ dynamics more quiet. In pizzicato, as an example, this is super useful - the top volume is then close to regular _mf_ and the _ppp_ is nearly niente. 

I am wondering if something similar exists in MSS? From what I've heard so far I can't tell if the dynamic range is too narrow for these pizzicatos. Perhaps there's a similar slider there?

Many thanks.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

youngpokie said:


> Is there anyone in this thread who has both Berlin Strings and MSS? I would be grateful for a comparison of dynamic range.
> 
> There is a slider in Berlin Strings that allows to rescale the dynamics and make the _p_ and _pp_ dynamics more quiet. In pizzicato, as an example, this is super useful - the top volume is then close to regular _mf_ and the _ppp_ is nearly niente.
> 
> I am wondering if something similar exists in MSS? From what I've heard so far I can't tell if the dynamic range is too narrow for these pizzicatos. Perhaps there's a similar slider there?
> 
> Many thanks.


Yes for sure, the dynamic range in MSS is extremely customizable


----------



## Casiquire

youngpokie said:


> Is there anyone in this thread who has both Berlin Strings and MSS? I would be grateful for a comparison of dynamic range.
> 
> There is a slider in Berlin Strings that allows to rescale the dynamics and make the _p_ and _pp_ dynamics more quiet. In pizzicato, as an example, this is super useful - the top volume is then close to regular _mf_ and the _ppp_ is nearly niente.
> 
> I am wondering if something similar exists in MSS? From what I've heard so far I can't tell if the dynamic range is too narrow for these pizzicatos. Perhaps there's a similar slider there?
> 
> Many thanks.


I don't have BS just yet, contrary to what my friends might tell you, but MSS does have dynamic range sliders and an option to link it with modwheel movement, which gives you niente


----------



## youngpokie

Baronvonheadless said:


> Yes for sure, the dynamic range in MSS is extremely customizable





Casiquire said:


> I don't have BS just yet, contrary to what my friends might tell you, but MSS does have dynamic range sliders and an option to link it with modwheel movement, which gives you niente


Thank you both. Reading the manual for the second time, I am wondering if this is the equivalent to the old Berlin function. 






If so, it does indeed make MSS very flexible, and a way to link together CC1 and CC11 is a very nice additional tool.

Thanks!


----------



## Noc

@youngpokie There are two ways to control MSS’s dynamic range to get true niente:

a) In the Dynamics editor → Smoothing, you can increase the “Volume Range” knob from its default, which makes softer dynamics quieter until the softest dynamic becomes entirely silent at 60 dB:






b) Under the Volume knob, you can click the little arrow and then turn on “Dyn Sync”, which will link the volume (C11 by default) to dynamics (C1), whilst the little Dyn Sync Range knob next to it controls how much effect the Volume knob will have:






Keep in mind that the Dyn. Curve and Vel. Curve tables let you control how you fade between dynamic layers within the currently set dynamic range, not change the dynamic range itself. _I.e._, if the Volume Range knob and Volume Dyn Sync buttons are at their defaults, playing the softest dynamics won’t be anywhere near niente no matter what kind of curve you program into those tables, because only Volume Range or Volume Dyn Sync allow you to actually stretch the dynamic range’s lower end to get quieter than the default lowest volume.

Personally, I prefer to control dynamics entirely through CC1, thus freeing CC11 for extra control where needed, so I’ve just cranked the Volume Range knob to the max (as pictured above) and then programmed these custom Vel. & Dyn. Curves so that dynamics behave how I want them to (otherwise moderately soft dynamics are _too_ quiet for my taste):






Between the curve editors, volume range knob, and volume sync (and volume sync range) knobs, you can mix and match settings pretty much any way you can imagine to get the exact dynamic behavior you want. MSS’s versatility and customizability really is on the next level.


----------



## youngpokie

Noc said:


> @youngpokie There are two ways to control MSS’s dynamic range to get true niente:


Thank you so much for this guide, @Noc ! 

I'm actively researching MSS right now but doing it completely from the manual/videos is not so easy... I'm still not completely clear on the reasons to distinguish between tiles and artics and con's and pro's of each... Anyway, thank you!


----------



## Noc

youngpokie said:


> Thank you so much for this guide, @Noc !
> 
> I'm actively researching MSS right now but doing it completely from the manual/videos is not so easy... I'm still not completely clear on the reasons to distinguish between tiles and artics and con's and pro's of each... Anyway, thank you!


No problemo. Lemme know if you got any more questions. I’m by no means an expert, but I might be able to answer some things.

As for tiles vs. articulations, can you clarify what you mean? Tiles are the squares in the interface you can click on to switch between different articulations; you can switch between them either manually (by clicking, obviously not great if you’re playing something back), via keyswitches or CC as designated in the Switcher (though keep in mind any articulations enabled in the Switcher is loaded into RAM, and these patches are _huge_ when fully loaded; disabling articulations in the Switcher then prevents you from switching between them), or by assigning your own CC to each tile, so that you can switch between them even if they’re unloaded in the Switcher Editor.

This brings to mind a suggestion for @dxmachina – it would be great if we could unload an articulation’s samples from within the Switcher without disabling the ability to switch to that articulation using the assigned keyswitch/CC. I understand this may raise concerns during playback, but for folks with fast enough drives (or who otherwise accept the risks and know what they’re doing), being able to pick and choose which articulations you want loaded without having to completely reconfigure your Switcher banks, all the while preserving the ability to switch between unloaded articulations, would be really nice.


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> No problemo. Lemme know if you got any more questions. I’m by no means an expert, but I might be able to answer some things.
> 
> As for tiles vs. articulations, can you clarify what you mean? Tiles are the squares in the interface you can click on to switch between different articulations; you can switch between them either manually (by clicking, obviously not great if you’re playing something back), via keyswitches or CC as designated in the Switcher (though keep in mind any articulations enabled in the Switcher is loaded into RAM, and these patches are _huge_ when fully loaded; disabling articulations in the Switcher then prevents you from switching between them), or by assigning your own CC to each tile, so that you can switch between them even if they’re unloaded in the Switcher Editor.
> 
> This brings to mind a suggestion for @dxmachina – it would be great if we could unload an articulation’s samples from within the Switcher without disabling the ability to switch to that articulation using the assigned keyswitch/CC. I understand this may raise concerns during playback, but for folks with fast enough drives (or who otherwise accept the risks and know what they’re doing), being able to pick and choose which articulations you want loaded without having to completely reconfigure your Switcher banks, all the while preserving the ability to switch between unloaded articulations, would be really nice.


I also find it interesting how many articulations can be unloaded from the Switcher without any impact on RAM. You're telling me that sul pont, sordino, AND sul tasto sustains don't even add up to ten megabytes combined? I feel like I'm missing something and they're somehow purged.



youngpokie said:


> Thank you so much for this guide, @Noc !
> 
> I'm actively researching MSS right now but doing it completely from the manual/videos is not so easy... I'm still not completely clear on the reasons to distinguish between tiles and artics and con's and pro's of each... Anyway, thank you!


The tiles are super useful for quick access to whatever articulation you're trying to modify, plus you can press one and then press the "layer" key to blend articulations. It's way easier to just hit a tile and make edits versus trying to figure out which keyswitch you're on and then hitting the right one


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> I also find it interesting how many articulations can be unloaded from the Switcher without any impact on RAM. You're telling me that sul pont, sordino, AND sul tasto sustains don't even add up to ten megabytes combined? I feel like I'm missing something and they're somehow purged.


I’ve definitely noticed that. My understanding is that you can only load/unload articulation samples _per tile_, rather than actually per-articulation. So when several articulations use the same tile, enabling that tile loads all those articulations, and disabling that tile unloads them all. This is why, for instance, switching to the Tremolo tile and turning sul pont. on and off doesn’t change the Tremolo tile’s RAM allocation – the trem. sul pont. samples are loaded (or unloaded) alongside the trem. norm. samples.


----------



## youngpokie

Noc said:


> As for tiles vs. articulations, can you clarify what you mean?


Oh I only meant there's the tile and there's also the switcher that at first glance seem to be two tools that are supposed to do the same exact thing, so I was a little unclear why...

I'm considering MSS actually for use with Dorico and VEPro, which brings me to another potential question mark. 

Using it with Dorico means I need to be reasonably confident I will be able to volume balance each articulation (which I am now clear I'll be able to do, thanks to your outline!). But it also means I don't have negative track delay. From what I've read so far, MSS legato can be _really_ out of time. Could you confirm that? And also, do you see a way to work with it without a negative track delay? I suppose manually moving the notes in the editor?

Thanks again!


----------



## Casiquire

youngpokie said:


> Oh I only meant there's the tile and there's also the switcher that at first glance seem to be two tools that are supposed to do the same exact thing, so I was a little unclear why...
> 
> I'm considering MSS actually for use with Dorico and VEPro, which brings me to another potential question mark.
> 
> Using it with Dorico means I need to be reasonably confident I will be able to volume balance each articulation (which I am now clear I'll be able to do, thanks to your outline!). But it also means I don't have negative track delay. From what I've read so far, MSS legato can be _really_ out of time. Could you confirm that? And also, do you see a way to work with it without a negative track delay? I suppose manually moving the notes in the editor?
> 
> Thanks again!


I haven't had any timing issues with the legato, especially with lookahead. You can just set the legato speed to whatever you want while playing too so you can make it pretty fast or slow, but it'll be consistent.


----------



## Noc

youngpokie said:


> I'm considering MSS actually for use with Dorico


I use Sibelius, so my use case is probably somewhat similar to yours. 



youngpokie said:


> Using it with Dorico means I need to be reasonably confident I will be able to volume balance each articulation (which I am now clear I'll be able to do, thanks to your outline!).


To be clear, what I outlined previously is for extending the dynamic range globally per instrument, which affects all tiles/articulations equally. However, MSS also has separate per-articulation volume knobs that can be set individually on each tile for exactly that purpose, because it’s great like that:






I’m still tweaking mine to my liking, but right off the bat I suggest turning the Shorts, Pizz. and Harm. volumes down by maybe -6 dB (adjust to taste) relative to the sustains, otherwise they really tend to stick out when switching to and from, at least in my experience.



youngpokie said:


> But it also means I don't have negative track delay. From what I've read so far, MSS legato can be _really_ out of time. Could you confirm that? And also, do you see a way to work with it without a negative track delay? I suppose manually moving the notes in the editor?


I’m not that familiar with Dorico, so I can’t comment on how track delays work there. At least in Sibelius, you can easily use the Inspector to manually set notes to start (or end) earlier or later than written, which – when applied to all notes on a staff – essentially acts as a track delay.

However – and this may be particular to Sibelius – changing the notes’ start times does _not_ change the automation’s (dynamics, manually typed MIDI/CC messages, etc.) timing, which then creates chaos during playback with larger note delays (notes that suddenly jump in volume, hairpins that trigger way too early or late, etc.). This sadly makes it impossible for me to use Look-Ahead with its massive delay of 400 ms. (That said, I understand Dorico has much more powerful playback & automation tools than Sibelius, so you might be able to completely solve this issue with just a few tweaks to the automation timing.)

That said, you don’t really _need_ Look-Ahead if you don’t mind manually editing your note delays. Legato playback seems to have minimal delay in MSS, even with the legato transition speed knob turned to 0, at least on my end. I set all MSS notes to start a _teensy_ bit early (maybe 20—50 ms, depending on tempo, which usually isn’t enough to cause any noticeable discrepancies with dynamics) just so the attacks line up nicely with the beats, and usually I don’t need to add any extra tweaking to the legato notes.

That said, this is just how it works for me with my customized settings and software environment, so I can’t promise that you might not have to configure things differently. But it should hopefully be a starting point.


----------



## youngpokie

Noc said:


> ...At least in Sibelius, you can easily use the Inspector to manually set notes to start (or end) earlier or later than written, which – when applied to all notes on a staff – essentially acts as a track delay.


Yes, it's basically the same. In Dorico you select a couple of notes, then use a shortcut to select all remaining notes on staff, and then apply the "playback start offset". It works - but I've never had a library that had uniform delays per articulation. The legatos are always late, but sometimes the shorts can be all over the place too... On occasion, I give up and explain it away as "humanization" 

Also, your observation about shorts volume relative to sustain is spot on! I don't have very many libraries, but pizzicato (to keep beating that same horse) is only properly balanced in Berlin Strings.

@Noc and @Casiquire you guys are amazing! Thank you!


----------



## Casiquire

youngpokie said:


> Yes, it's basically the same. In Dorico you select a couple of notes, then use a shortcut to select all remaining notes on staff, and then apply the "playback start offset". It works - but I've never had a library that had uniform delays per articulation. The legatos are always late, but sometimes the shorts can be all over the place too... On occasion, I give up and explain it away as "humanization"
> 
> Also, your observation about shorts volume relative to sustain is spot on! I don't have very many libraries, but pizzicato (to keep beating that same horse) is only properly balanced in Berlin Strings.
> 
> @Noc and @Casiquire you guys are amazing! Thank you!


As i reread this, i might have missed that Dorico might work differently from other DAWs so don't quote me on it, but i still find it unlikely that you need to do a note-by-note nudge instead of moving everything forward by 400ms after writing notes and back again before writing them just as a solid block


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

boy every day i find something that makes me realize this is the most comprehensive string library out there. call me stupid but i only just discovered the smooth knob will tighten up the release of the pattern scales. goddam what flexibility!

the only thing missing for me still from this library are super slow glisses. i've tried the transition speed and it's not quite doing it. anybody wanna tell me i'm dumb and this exists somewhere? (i haven't yet had a chance to dig into the updated expanded legatos)


----------



## Casiquire

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> boy every day i find something that makes me realize this is the most comprehensive string library out there. call me stupid but i only just discovered the smooth knob will tighten up the release of the pattern scales. goddam what flexibility!
> 
> the only thing missing for me still from this library are super slow glisses. i've tried the transition speed and it's not quite doing it. anybody wanna tell me i'm dumb and this exists somewhere? (i haven't yet had a chance to dig into the updated expanded legatos)


Not *exactly* but there are options. I've used the detune feature to good effect for slow gliss within a certain range. Otherwise, I've always said Melodyne is indispensable in a writer's toolkit. You can use a normal gliss and just stretch the transition in Melodyne to fit whatever length you need, and the result is really natural


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

Casiquire said:


> Not *exactly* but there are options. I've used the detune feature to good effect for slow gliss within a certain range. Otherwise, I've always said Melodyne is indispensable in a writer's toolkit. You can use a normal gliss and just stretch the transition in Melodyne to fit whatever length you need, and the result is really natural


yeah! totally. i have the pitch n' time algo in pro tools and it's definitely nice but you know, when you're plowing along and you just want to sequence everything it's nice to not have to come back to it... would be cool if they recorded some down the road for an update!

but definitely a smart way to go. how is melodyne on artifacts?


----------



## Casiquire

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> yeah! totally. i have the pitch n' time algo in pro tools and it's definitely nice but you know, when you're plowing along and you just want to sequence everything it's nice to not have to come back to it... would be cool if they recorded some down the road for an update!
> 
> but definitely a smart way to go. how is melodyne on artifacts?


For something like that, flawless. If you're trying to stretch a vocal an octave or two you're going to run into problems, but just stretching a transition that's authentically recorded, there shouldn't be any issues at all


----------



## Noeticus

donnyluvd2bowl said:


> boy every day i find something that makes me realize this is the most comprehensive string library out there. call me stupid but i only just discovered the smooth knob will tighten up the release of the pattern scales. goddam what flexibility!
> 
> the only thing missing for me still from this library are super slow glisses. i've tried the transition speed and it's not quite doing it. anybody wanna tell me i'm dumb and this exists somewhere? (i haven't yet had a chance to dig into the updated expanded legatos)


MSS is truly great, but for glissandi I suggest SWAM Strings v3 by Audiomodeling.

With SWAM you can create almost any gliss imaginable.


----------



## donnyluvd2bowl

One more thing I love about this library, the legato engine isn't constructed in such a way where you need to overlap notes or anything, so when I'm printing stems and ready to send stuff out to the orchestrator, my string MIDI parts are just ready to go immediately**. Well done AB.





Noeticus said:


> MSS is truly great, but for glissandi I suggest SWAM Strings v3 by Audiomodeling.
> 
> With SWAM you can create almost any gliss imaginable.


oh I'll check it out-- I like their solo trumpet, but have been waiting for Aaron to finish up Infinite Strings to go the modeling route


**Edit to say except if you use the osti and scale patches... but it's fine.


----------



## curry36

One question about the auto divisi. Not sure if I saw that right, but I remember that a guy had a MIDI block full of chords (I think it was the ensemble patch) and I could hear legato transitions inbetween every voice. Could be wrong, I don't remember the exact video. 

But let's say I have 1st Vlns opened and play Octaves doubled divisi, would the algorythm only detect that I'm playing divisi and split the voices or would it also apply Legato to BOTH voices?


----------



## Casiquire

curry36 said:


> One question about the auto divisi. Not sure if I saw that right, but I remember that a guy had a MIDI block full of chords (I think it was the ensemble patch) and I could hear legato transitions inbetween every voice. Could be wrong, I don't remember the exact video.
> 
> But let's say I have 1st Vlns opened and play Octaves doubled divisi, would the algorythm only detect that I'm playing divisi and split the voices or would it also apply Legato to BOTH voices?


It applies legato to all voices.


----------



## curry36

Wow thats really a selling Point. I could finally start Composing for Strings instead as for Pads 😅


----------



## Noeticus

It looks like LASS 3.0 is almost here...









LA Scoring Strings 3 - Audiobro


LA Scoring Strings 3 is our classic string library, integrating it seamlessly into our new orchestral engine with a host of new features.



www.audiobro.com


----------



## Noc

Noeticus said:


> It looks like LASS 3.0 is almost here...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA Scoring Strings 3 - Audiobro
> 
> 
> LA Scoring Strings 3 is our classic string library, integrating it seamlessly into our new orchestral engine with a host of new features.
> 
> 
> 
> www.audiobro.com


Good find! Definitely early, since the page is still under construction with bits missing -- note the TBA pricing and MSS placeholders, heh. Were you just continually trying that URL to see when it would lead somewhere? 😋

We also have a nice little preview of what's next for MSS on the MSS/LASS 3 comparison page, which states that MSS "sonic profiles" are "TBA soon". Noice.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

What are these sonic profiles that are coming soon?


----------



## Casiquire

Baronvonheadless said:


> What are these sonic profiles that are coming soon?


Who knows! My guess is tailored presets but i don't expect them to be exactly the same as the LASS ones. I'm not even sure if they'll be related to specific movies at all


----------



## Evans

In parallel to any product updates, I hope Audiobro becomes more focused on audio demos. I really like what Jasper posts for his libraries - a lot "noodling around," I'd call it. Lots of short sketches.

I think Nathan David Carlton and Curtis Schweitzer showed us a bit of what MSS can do in long format videos, but sometimes just 15-30 seconds of a sketch can really build excitement around the content of a library. I don't think we've seen enough clips explore just how much people can shape the sound.


----------



## Noeticus

Noc said:


> Good find! Definitely early, since the page is still under construction with bits missing -- note the TBA pricing and MSS placeholders, heh. Were you just continually trying that URL to see when it would lead somewhere? 😋
> 
> We also have a nice little preview of what's next for MSS on the MSS/LASS 3 comparison page, which states that MSS "sonic profiles" are "TBA soon". Noice.


Credit for the find goes to Markrs on this forum...






LA Scoring Strings 3


EDIT: This was posted by Andrew K. of AudioBro on their forum. "That web page was a "placeholder" for when we release it and was not finalized. Sorry for any confusion. It's been taken down. We will announce its release when it's ready for download. I don't want to give an ETA just yet as it's...




vi-control.net


----------



## Russell Anderson

Evans said:


> sometimes just 15-30 seconds of a sketch can really build excitement around the content of a library. I don't think we've seen enough clips explore just how much people can shape the sound.


Absolutely 300,000 times this. Feature what the tweaks sound like, the mics, the molto, the runs on a continuously changing host tempo... Jasper gets it right. AND YOU GET A PLAYABLE DEMOOooo

I’m so close to being sold on MSS, if I could just understand it on a more granular level that’d be it. Noodle demos/sketchs, if not a demo instrument to play, are the very small bridge I’d need.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Russell Anderson said:


> Absolutely 300,000 times this. Feature what the tweaks sound like, the mics, the molto, the runs on a continuously changing host tempo... Jasper gets it right. AND YOU GET A PLAYABLE DEMOOooo
> 
> I’m so close to being sold on MSS, if I could just understand it on a more granular level that’d be it. Noodle demos/sketchs, if not a demo instrument to play, are the very small bridge I’d need.


I feel like this thread has been full of owners posting examples of MSS and demos/sketches/full pieces featuring it. (myself included) but it is definitely easy to get lost. Here are some string heavy examples using MSS and some shameless self promotion.




Big orchestral piece, featuring MSS legatos/Ostinatos etc


Hybrid Orchestral piece featuring MSS legatos, Divisi, Ostinato engine, and short rhythm engine


All MSS, featuring tons of shorts and scales


Once again featuring my favorite (ostinato engine), the short rhythm section, and scales etc



Romantic string arrangement combining multiple MSS string sections and mixing them with MSS's Solo strings as well to really get the most out of the vibrato









Mulholland Drive Ending/Love Theme


This is an orchestral mock up/cover of Angelo Badalamenti's End theme to Mulholland Drive. A great inspiration to my writing.




soundcloud.com




The theme from Mulholland Drive, mainly MSS but layered slightly with Vista (not the purest example but MSS is still higher in the mix here)


----------



## Futchibon

Baronvonheadless said:


> I feel like this thread has been full of owners posting examples of MSS and demos/sketches/full pieces featuring it. (myself included) but it is definitely easy to get lost. Here are some string heavy examples using MSS and some shameless self promotion.


THanks for sharing!


----------



## Russell Anderson

Baronvonheadless said:


> I feel like this thread has been full of owners posting examples of MSS and demos/sketches/full pieces featuring it. (myself included) but it is definitely easy to get lost. Here are some string heavy examples using MSS and some shameless self promotion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big orchestral piece, featuring MSS legatos/Ostinatos etc
> 
> 
> Hybrid Orchestral piece featuring MSS legatos, Divisi, Ostinato engine, and short rhythm engine
> 
> 
> All MSS, featuring tons of shorts and scales
> 
> 
> Once again featuring my favorite (ostinato engine), the short rhythm section, and scales etc
> 
> 
> 
> Romantic string arrangement combining multiple MSS string sections and mixing them with MSS's Solo strings as well to really get the most out of the vibrato
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mulholland Drive Ending/Love Theme
> 
> 
> This is an orchestral mock up/cover of Angelo Badalamenti's End theme to Mulholland Drive. A great inspiration to my writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soundcloud.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The theme from Mulholland Drive, mainly MSS but layered slightly with Vista (not the purest example but MSS is still higher in the mix here)



Thank you for this. What I feel to be lacking from the demos in this thread is naked violin lines, naked cello lines, naked molto lines, plenty of them all with different settings to affect legato transition speed, offset, bloom, etc. 

This is what you get from Jasper, in addition to the playable patch(es!), and the music. The video demos do an excellent job demonstrating the rest of the features, but not legato and frankly not the mics either in my opinion (unless it’s time for me to revisit @Soundbed ‘s channel for the Part 1 walkthrough.

For legatos though, I hardly know what it sounds like in 1.1. Especially when modified by multiple parameters. The demo content showcasing it thus far is too little for me to decide.


----------



## Soundbed

Russell Anderson said:


> Thank you for this. What I feel to be lacking from the demos in this thread is naked violin lines, naked cello lines, naked molto lines, plenty of them all with different settings to affect legato transition speed, offset, bloom, etc.
> 
> This is what you get from Jasper, in addition to the playable patch(es!), and the music. The video demos do an excellent job demonstrating the rest of the features, but not legato and frankly not the mics either in my opinion (unless it’s time for me to revisit @Soundbed ‘s channel for the Part 1 walkthrough.
> 
> For legatos though, I hardly know what it sounds like in 1.1. Especially when modified by multiple parameters. The demo content showcasing it thus far is too little for me to decide.


I didn't do too much to compare and contrast mics. I basically used different mics at different times in different videos, which would make for a frustrating viewing experience if you were looking for only mic differences. I can try to throw something together since it's right in front of me.

EDIT: ugh I take it back, sorry! I started on this and realized I've got too many other things on my plate right now. Basically I always start with the Mix mics now, with the violins 1 and 2 turned down -2dB for balance. All others with Mix mics at unity (0dB). I don't start with any close mics or fancy mix combinations. All internal effects and reverbs are off.

I change the dynamics settings to 20% dynamic smoothing and a 25dB Volume Range for all instruments. My personal cellos preset had the "Upper Register Dyn Realism" amount set to 50% while the the others were at 100% ... I don't recall if that was intentional or an oversight.

I know this doesn't help if you don't have a demo. But there are so many customization things for balance and dynamics across the range and so on ... demos are impacted by volume and volume is adjusted by settings.

Mod wheel plays an important part as well, because of the various dynamics recorded.

And ... I'm no Jasper.



And ... (not that anyone really cares, but ...) everything I publish is signed exclusively and I don't have the rights to "distribute" it, and I've mostly stopped sharing new stuff in my portfolio the last couple years. The one publisher I know who has given me permission to share my exclusively signed content; I haven't written anything for them with MSS yet (only other genres that didn't need strings). So ... maybe I can noodle around with it more someday, but I've got to get back to paid work and fall chores and spending time with my family at the moment.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Here's some very quick improv's since I have like a half hour haha.

I showcase the close mic and stage mic mixed (don't have time to do more than that atm). But it's my favorite combo anyway. Close mic at -5db and stage mic at 0db taking the lead. No mix mic's or surround.
Dry with no eq or reverb, and then wet bus'd to seventh heaven reverb, but with no eq.
In some demos I switch through multiple articulations etc. in ensemble/divisi mode and then in some I just showcase legato transitions and turning the Molto vibrato off and on.



MSS VIOLIN 1 legato dry 
View attachment MSS violins 1 legato improv dry.mp3


MSS VIOLIN 1 legato w/seventh heaven 
View attachment MSS violins 1 legato improv wet.mp3

MSS VIOLIN 1 articulation divisi improv dry
View attachment MSS violins 1 improv dry .mp3

MSS VIOLIN 1 articulation divisi improv w/ seventh heaven

View attachment MSS violins 1 improv wet.mp3


----------



## Soundbed

Baronvonheadless said:


> Here's some very quick improv's since I have like a half hour haha.
> 
> I showcase the close mic and stage mic mixed (don't have time to do more than that atm). But it's my favorite combo anyway. Close mic at -5db and stage mic at 0db taking the lead. No mix mic's or surround.
> 
> Dry with no eq or reverb, and then wet bus'd to seventh heaven reverb, but with no eq.
> In some demos I switch through multiple articulations etc. in ensemble/divisi mode and then in some I just showcase legato transitions and turning the Molto vibrato off and on.
> 
> Violins 1 patch btw.


did you attach it? or link it?


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Soundbed said:


> did you attach it? or link it?


Weird internet issues. They're all there now! Cheers


----------



## Russell Anderson

Baronvonheadless said:


> Here's some very quick improv's since I have like a half hour haha.
> 
> I showcase the close mic and stage mic mixed (don't have time to do more than that atm). But it's my favorite combo anyway. Close mic at -5db and stage mic at 0db taking the lead. No mix mic's or surround.
> Dry with no eq or reverb, and then wet bus'd to seventh heaven reverb, but with no eq.
> In some demos I switch through multiple articulations etc. in ensemble/divisi mode and then in some I just showcase legato transitions and turning the Molto vibrato off and on.
> 
> 
> 
> MSS VIOLIN 1 legato dry
> View attachment MSS violins 1 legato improv dry.mp3
> 
> 
> MSS VIOLIN 1 legato w/seventh heaven
> View attachment MSS violins 1 legato improv wet.mp3
> 
> MSS VIOLIN 1 articulation divisi improv dry
> View attachment MSS violins 1 improv dry .mp3
> 
> MSS VIOLIN 1 articulation divisi improv w/ seventh heaven
> 
> View attachment MSS violins 1 improv wet.mp3


This was immensely revealing in a very good way, thank you for your time doing this! Indeed the legato actually does sound quite good, the molto usefully molto-y. The 1.1 update did some good things for the sound it seems, and with lookahead, too. Hmmmm…

@Soundbed you’ve done plenty already, and even if that wasn’t so I completely respect the reservation. I can relate on the busyness though unfortunately for me it is not in music.


----------



## ansthenia

I feel bad ignoring people who ask for some simple little user demos for a library I have, but my midi programming is so bad and amateur that I worry I'd only make the library look bad due to my own errors and ignorance. So I gotta skip on posting anything unfortunately.


----------



## Casiquire

Baronvonheadless said:


> Here's some very quick improv's since I have like a half hour haha.
> 
> I showcase the close mic and stage mic mixed (don't have time to do more than that atm). But it's my favorite combo anyway. Close mic at -5db and stage mic at 0db taking the lead. No mix mic's or surround.
> Dry with no eq or reverb, and then wet bus'd to seventh heaven reverb, but with no eq.
> In some demos I switch through multiple articulations etc. in ensemble/divisi mode and then in some I just showcase legato transitions and turning the Molto vibrato off and on.
> 
> 
> 
> MSS VIOLIN 1 legato dry
> View attachment MSS violins 1 legato improv dry.mp3
> 
> 
> MSS VIOLIN 1 legato w/seventh heaven
> View attachment MSS violins 1 legato improv wet.mp3
> 
> MSS VIOLIN 1 articulation divisi improv dry
> View attachment MSS violins 1 improv dry .mp3
> 
> MSS VIOLIN 1 articulation divisi improv w/ seventh heaven
> 
> View attachment MSS violins 1 improv wet.mp3


Do you favor a sped up portamento over the standard legato transitions? I feel like that's what I'm hearing fairly often here. Thanks for posting. I think it's a good demonstration that the library can be expressive and that the legatos are dang near flawless.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Casiquire said:


> Do you favor a sped up portamento over the standard legato transitions? I feel like that's what I'm hearing fairly often here. Thanks for posting. I think it's a good demonstration that the library can be expressive and that the legatos are dang near flawless.


I tried to do a mix of both here. Usually I leave it on normal because I don’t do super rapid lines, but on some lines sped up is nice. Like lotr theme etc but not all the time on that either


----------



## Russell Anderson

Well, here we are. If Audiobro do a sizeable enough sale, MSS is going to do more for me than Pacific. I'm actually happy with my strings as they are, but a full-size ensemble with scales, ostenatos and _custom aleatorics? _all in divisi and situated easily is a pretty hefty upgrade to my bread and butter libraries. Yeah, Pacific shorts are fucking incredible, but in the end, $500 godlike shorts and crunchy marcatos are mostly what I'd be buying, compared to the sonic playground MSS provides. NSS does a lot of what I like about Pacific, albeit with a slightly trimmed dynamic range in some cases (most notably the shorts) which some layering helps to enrich.

The lack of vibrato (but with the available molto option) is also turning out to be a boon, as presently my 3 chamber/half-sized strings are tastefully heavy-handed and something more neutral would be a large palette extension.

Infinite Strings IMO is the only theoretical competitor to MSS' features. I hope I am blessed such that I am able to make a decision between the two, given that Aaron would soon have to have by then released some kind of preview and that MSS sale would not be over by the time my mind is made up. And I do hope MSS goes on sale. I do think this library is very underrated, as verbose of a legato detractor as I was back in the good ole' release days


----------



## Futchibon

Russell Anderson said:


> Well, here we are. If Audiobro do a sizeable enough sale, MSS is going to do more for me than Pacific.


As it was only released this year, I'm not holding out on a massive discount, but here's hoping!


Russell Anderson said:


> Infinite Strings IMO is the only theoretical competitor to MSS' features.


Looking forward to IS as much as the next person, but Audiobro have been doing this for years, so I wouldn't expect IS to come anywhere near close to MSS is terms of functionality. And as much as I like IB and IW, there are still problems with sonority which may well be present with IS.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Futchibon said:


> As it was only released this year, I'm not holding out on a massive discount, but here's hoping!
> 
> Looking forward to IS as much as the next person, but Audiobro have been doing this for years, so I wouldn't expect IS to come anywhere near close to MSS is terms of functionality. And as much as I like IB and IW, there are still problems with sonority which may well be present with IS.


I expect as much, on both accounts. The IS sound I don’t expect to be convincing off the bat, but in terms of fluidity of runs and legato transitions, and aleatorics, I expect it will probably be quite good and of course there will be updates, and on that front MSS is already ready to ship IMO. Whether it will be as easy to setup as MSS is doubtful. As is the possibility of a ~$400-450 price tag on MSS at which point I could be swayed. Doubtful that will happen, lol


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Hello.
A quick question about Audiobro in general:
Am I correct in understanding that Audiobro only sells their products direct, via PayPal?
Thank you and sorry for going off topic.


----------



## alcorey

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Hello.
> A quick question about Audiobro in general:
> Am I correct in understanding that Audiobro only sells their products direct, via PayPal?
> Thank you and sorry for going off topic.


Yes, direct only - you can use a credit card in paypal


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

alcorey said:


> you can use a credit card in paypal


Unfortunately, not easy in my country. Thank you for a quick reply.


----------



## Casiquire

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Unfortunately, not easy in my country. Thank you for a quick reply.


Try to reach out to their support. It's worth a try!


----------



## alcorey

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Unfortunately, not easy in my country. Thank you for a quick reply.


Try contacting them directly and explain any issues preventing you from doing that - I'm sure they will try to figure out a solution that works for both of you

Edit: Casiquire was much quicker than me!


----------



## ScrltPumpernickel

Thank you Casiquire and alcorey for the advice, but short of changing their processing provider or partnering with some online reseller, I don't see what they could do; and I don't think it's reasonable to ask them for that.
Also, as much as I appreciate your kind advice (I really do), I wouldn't want to pollute this thread any further.


----------



## Russell Anderson

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Thank you Casiquire and alcorey for the advice, but short of changing their processing provider or partnering with some online reseller, I don't see what they could do; and I don't think it's reasonable to ask them for that.
> Also, as much as I appreciate your kind advice (I really do), I wouldn't want to pollute this thread any further.


What else is this thread for?  I would 100% ask them to see if they can help. It is not at all unreasonable, that’s why they have support!


----------



## Russell Anderson

ScrltPumpernickel said:


> Thank you Casiquire and alcorey for the advice, but short of changing their processing provider or partnering with some online reseller, I don't see what they could do; and I don't think it's reasonable to ask them for that.
> Also, as much as I appreciate your kind advice (I really do), I wouldn't want to pollute this thread any further.


You can, by the way, attempt to pay with a service such as Zip, or ask Audiobro if they would take a payment from you using Zelle or Transferwise (now called Wise). They are a couple of guys, as far as I know, and also as far as I know they’ll just be wanting to help you be able to use their product if you want to. They already put a lot of work into its development, what’s a little more to make sure everyone can use it?


----------



## Russell Anderson

Is there not a mailing list for Audiobro? If not I’ll just keep checking their website daily to see if a sale is posted.


----------



## Noc

Russell Anderson said:


> Is there not a mailing list for Audiobro? If not I’ll just keep checking their website daily to see if a sale is posted.


I occasionally get emails from Audiobro, but I think it’s only because I purchased some of their libraries. Dunno of any other way to get on their mailing list – @dxmachina?


----------



## Futchibon

The wheels are in motion...


----------



## Futchibon




----------



## dzilizzi

I guess it depends on how much. 

I'm not in a hurry.


----------



## coprhead6

oh my godddddd

I’m glad I didn’t pull the trigger on Berlin Strings yet…. Or am I? Do I really need another week do wringing my hands?


----------



## alcorey

dzilizzi said:


> I guess it depends on how much.
> 
> I'm not in a hurry.


LASS pricing info


----------



## dzilizzi

alcorey said:


> LASS pricing info


Sorry. I'm looking at MSS, not LASS at this point. Though I'm glad I didn't buy old LASS like I was thinking of doing a few weeks ago. I wouldn't have saved much. Thanks.


----------



## Casiquire

Exciting news! No mention of cost though


----------



## muziksculp

The audiobro site is down. I can't reach it. 

Anyone having this issue ?


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> The audiobro site is down.


It's unstable as they roll out the updates keep refreshing lol i had a few errors too but eventually got to see it


----------



## dzilizzi

muziksculp said:


> The audiobro site is down. I can't reach it.
> 
> Anyone having this issue ?


Getting ready....


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> It's unstable as they roll out the updates keep refreshing lol i had a few errors too but eventually got to see it


THANKS 

Finally LASS 3 is coming alive. 

$99. is very reasonable to upgrade to LASS 3.


----------



## Frederick

As far as I can tell there's no crossgrade for MSS owners. It would be $399 when purchased during the BF sale, but there doesn't seem to be a mention of the regular prices. I must say I like the espressivo sustains. I also like the option to split into 1/4, 1/4 and 1/2. MSS has way more features though. I'll probably skip this one as I already have tons of string libraries and none of my orchestral templates really needs this.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> THANKS
> 
> Finally LASS 3 is coming alive.
> 
> $99. is very reasonable to upgrade to LASS 3.


Yay we got pricing info! I'll pay it


----------



## muziksculp

LASS 3 Videos would be awesome to watch, and hear. OH.. wait they have videos already


----------



## jadedsean

Correct me if I’m wrong but, isn’t this pricing a little on the steep side? When you think about the samples are 10 years old and they basically took Lass 2.5 and wrapped it up in Scoring Strings engine.


----------



## alcorey

Casiquire said:


> Yay we got pricing info! I'll pay it


The pricing was posted before in #4826

And videos are up at the site - https://www.audiobro.com/lass-3-videos-introduction-to-lass-3/

it may take a minute to get in, moving slowly


----------



## muziksculp

Paging @Batrawi, *LASS 3* action happening now.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Need to watch the videos, but $99 is very fair IMO. Maybe this will resurrect LASS after years of not using it - but do I need it if I have MSS...

If anything, after the whole SINE rollout of Berlin Series that I bought, MSB is still interesting to me.


----------



## alcorey

Frederick said:


> As far as I can tell there's no crossgrade for MSS owners. It would be $399 when purchased during the BF sale, but there doesn't seem to be a mention of the regular prices. I must say I like the espressivo sustains. I also like the option to split into 1/4, 1/4 and 1/2. MSS has way more features though. I'll probably skip this one as I already have tons of string libraries and none of my orchestral templates really needs this.


They state that there is Customer loyalty pricing - you'll have to log in to your Audiobro account to see it though - and probably won't be able to access that until Friday at noon


----------



## jadedsean

alcorey said:


> The pricing was posted before in #4826
> 
> And videos are up at the site - https://www.audiobro.com/lass-3-videos-introduction-to-lass-3/
> 
> it may take a minute to get in, moving slowly


It’s just the introduction video, the rest are the old scoring strings videos.


----------



## dzilizzi

jadedsean said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong but, isn’t this pricing a little on the steep side? When you think about the samples are 10 years old and they basically took Lass 2.5 and wrapped it up in Scoring Strings engine.


Actually, it looks like the same price as LASS 2.5 was prior to the upgrade. And they recently permanently put it on sale from the original $1k+ price. I think it is reasonable if you like the sound.


----------



## Futchibon

dzilizzi said:


> I guess it depends on how much.
> 
> I'm not in a hurry.


I'm guessing if LASS3 is $399, they won't bring MSS down to that level as it's their top-tier strings library? Or are they considered equal? $399 would be amazing for MSS but I'm guessing maybe $499?


----------



## Drumdude2112

Wow 399 is a pretty sweet deal.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

jadedsean said:


> It’s just the introduction video, the rest are the old scoring strings videos.


The stage & timbral video is updated for LASS 3.0 and looks like a great implementation. Can't wait for them to bring that to MSS too.


----------



## dzilizzi

Futchibon said:


> I'm guessing if LASS3 is $399, they won't bring MSS down to that level as it's their top-tier strings library? Or are they considered equal? $399 would be amazing for MSS but I'm guessing maybe $499?


I was good at 50% off.


----------



## Drumdude2112

MSS seems to have way more articulations so i’m guessing its priced higher then MSS


----------



## muziksculp

The audiobro site must be overloaded with traffic. I can't access it, I guess I will re-visit it later this evening, or tomorrow. I watched two of the videos, but it's becoming harder to access the site now. 

I wonder how many LASS 2.5 users are trying to access their site now.


----------



## Futchibon

Drumdude2112 said:


> MSS seems to have way more articulations so i’m guessing its priced higher then MSS


Than LASS3 you mean? Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, it won't be as cheap as LASS3, but one can hope!


----------



## Casiquire

jadedsean said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong but, isn’t this pricing a little on the steep side? When you think about the samples are 10 years old and they basically took Lass 2.5 and wrapped it up in Scoring Strings engine.


The age of the samples means almost nothing; the age of the programming means way more. It's not like there are dozens of similar libraries that are sold for that same price range and including as many features. It stands on its own


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> The age of the samples means almost nothing;


Well, sort of. It's not that the age of each individual file matters, but what was sampled in the first place is pretty important. For the most part, developers these days are being much more careful about things like selection of dynamic layers and performance-based sampling (see: Performance Samples).


----------



## Casiquire

Evans said:


> Well, sort of. It's not that the age of each individual file matters, but what was sampled in the first place is pretty important. For the most part, developers these days are being much more careful about things like selection of dynamic layers and performance-based sampling (see: Performance Samples).


On the outer fringes, sure. Broadly though almost nothing has changed, and performance based sampling doesn't necessarily always lead to better results. Without putting anyone else down, I'll just say that there have been a couple libraries out there that mentioned performance sampling with results that didn't really seem revolutionary to me, and even PS comes with downsides like the initial pluck sound or ambient pre-noise. In the case of LASS, the original recordings already have plenty of baked in expression. The library is just really well done all around


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> On the outer fringes, sure.


No. I refuse to buy anything that isn't performance sampled these days.

_>Looks at recent Zebra 2 purchase. Gently hides the receipt._


----------



## wilifordmusic

I've bought a lot of sample libraries over the past century. We're talking down payment on a nice house and a couple of cars.

Oh, the libraries mentioned above also paid for said house and cars.

I'm also one of the guys who has used LASS over the past decades and loved it.

This is an insta-buy.


----------



## dhmusic

Casiquire said:


> The age of the samples means almost nothing; the age of the programming means way more. It's not like there are dozens of similar libraries that are sold for that same price range and including as many features. It stands on its own


Do you use the Genesis choir? (Slightly off topic)


----------



## Casiquire

dhmusic said:


> Do you use the Genesis choir? (Slightly off topic)


I do not! Though I've heard some really amazing things


----------



## Grizzlymv

dzilizzi said:


> Actually, it looks like the same price as LASS 2.5 was prior to the upgrade. And they recently permanently put it on sale from the original $1k+ price. I think it is reasonable if you like the sound.


Actually, LASS 3 comes in cheaper as being LASS Full 2.5 + LASS LS 2.5 together, for the price of LASS Full 2.5 alone. nice deal. REALLY tempted. I was eyeing Genesis for this BF, but now, I'm reconsidering my options...  

below from the google cache web site (no longer listed in their store page)


----------



## jadedsean

Casiquire said:


> The age of the samples means almost nothing; the age of the programming means way more. It's not like there are dozens of similar libraries that are sold for that same price range and including as many features. It stands on its own


Yeah I suppose your right, but on the other hand. I usually see updates as quite cheap, for example cinesamples will update there there orchestral libraries GUI‘s and it will be free to existing customers, as far as I know there are some new features in the works. 

Then there is 8dio, they changed there whole Century line and added different options to create a better sound stage, I’m sure that was not cheap for them, however I believe they only charged 30€ at the time.

Of course we couldn’t forget Orchestral tools, they created a whole new player and if you originally owned some of there Kontakt products they where ported into the Sine player when available, and I believe that was also free of charge.

I‘m not debating that this should not be a paid update I just think it’s a little steep for a GUI update. A lot of the new features are definitely cool but, they are practically the same as what’s in Scoring Strings bar one or two maybe.


Whilst I kinda agree with your statement, there are some issues that where made while sampling this library, im not going to mention them as most of us know what they are, an update improving these problems would have been invaluable to Lass users and surely worth the current price or if not more. 

Also when you say samples don’t age I think this comes with a caveat, let’s take Damage for example, those samples are on so many productions that have become synonymous in the industry and recognizable to most of us, so I do think there is a shelf life to older samples otherwise developers would not continue to keep pushing boundaries and improving on each library.


----------



## Casiquire

jadedsean said:


> Yeah I suppose your right, but on the other hand. I usually see updates as quite cheap, for example cinesamples will update there there orchestral libraries GUI‘s and it will be free to existing customers, as far as I know there are some new features in the works.
> 
> Then there is 8dio, they changed there whole Century line and added different options to create a better sound stage, I’m sure that was not cheap for them, however I believe they only charged 30€ at the time.
> 
> Of course we couldn’t forget Orchestral tools, they created a whole new player and if you originally owned some of there Kontakt products they where ported into the Sine player when available, and I believe that was also free of charge.
> 
> I‘m not debating that this should not be a paid update I just think it’s a little steep for a GUI update. A lot of the new features are definitely cool but, they are practically the same as what’s in Scoring Strings bar one or two maybe.
> 
> 
> Whilst I kinda agree with your statement, there are some issues that where made while sampling this library, im not going to mention them as most of us know what they are, an update improving these problems would have been invaluable to Lass users and surely worth the current price or if not more.
> 
> Also when you say samples don’t age I think this comes with a caveat, let’s take Damage for example, those samples are on so many productions that have become synonymous in the industry and recognizable to most of us, so I do think there is a shelf life to older samples otherwise developers would not continue to keep pushing boundaries and improving on each library.


Definitely good points all around. It would've been cool for the update to be free. I don't think LASS has reached that level of recognition, and that only matters to people in the industry anyway, but yeah it's definitely not unheard of for updates like that to be free, but there are other factors involved even in the examples you mentioned which make it less black and white for me. 

I won't harp on it if you were trying to avoid getting sidetracked, but are you referring to intonation issues? That's really the only thing i can think of that's gone unaddressed


----------



## jadedsean

Casiquire said:


> Definitely good points all around. It would've been cool for the update to be free. I don't think LASS has reached that level of recognition, and that only matters to people in the industry anyway, but yeah it's definitely not unheard of for updates like that to be free, but there are other factors involved even in the examples you mentioned which make it less black and white for me.
> 
> I won't harp on it if you were trying to avoid getting sidetracked, but are you referring to intonation issues? That's really the only thing i can think of that's gone unaddressed


Yes that and the nasal harsh sound when riding the modwheel to high. I really hoped they would re–tune the samples. Some of them are unusable. I know we can EQ the harshness out though. I really like Lass but the 2.5 version was hard to use, now with this new player it seems that’s a thing of the past which is great but the intonation on some samples are just awful.


----------



## Casiquire

jadedsean said:


> Yes that and the nasal harsh sound when riding the modwheel to high. I really hoped they would re–tune the samples. Some of them are unusable. I know we can EQ the harshness out though. I really like Lass but the 2.5 version was hard to use, now with this new player it seems that’s a thing of the past which is great but the intonation on some samples are just awful.


Well the harshness has definitely been addressed, but i think the intonation is in the recordings and can't be taken care of so easily. At least we can just pick another section


----------



## jadedsean

Casiquire said:


> Well the harshness has definitely been addressed, but i think the intonation is in the recordings and can't be taken care of so easily. At least we can just pick another section


Yeah true but kinda defeats the purpose of having a divisi section. I just read that customers get also loyality discount as well. I just logged in and don't see it. Anyone know where to find this?


----------



## Noc

jadedsean said:


> I just read that customers get also loyality discount as well. I just logged in and don't see it. Anyone know where to find this?


Here:


----------



## Casiquire

jadedsean said:


> Yeah true but kinda defeats the purpose of having a divisi section. I just read that customers get also loyality discount as well. I just logged in and don't see it. Anyone know where to find this?


Nah when you blend the sections the issues largely melt anyway. I tend to only hear it in very excited lines


----------



## jadedsean

Noc said:


> Here:


I thought, not just Lass libraries, what about Genesis?


----------



## Futchibon

jadedsean said:


> I thought, not just Lass libraries, what about Genesis?


You may have to wait til noon on Friday to see if it gives you a discount. MSS is currently 649 and when I log in it knocks $50 off for owning Genesis, so may be similar for LASS3?


----------



## Futchibon

dhmusic said:


> Do you use the Genesis choir? (Slightly off topic)





Casiquire said:


> I do not! Though I've heard some really amazing things


Love Genesis  While the samples per se may not be better than Arva, the programming is so clever and well thought out that it's just a joy to play. Only downside is a children's choir is fairly niche, so having a strings library like MSS with similar functions like detune but also a lot more makes getting MSS irresistable!


----------



## Casiquire

Futchibon said:


> Love Genesis  While the samples per se may not be better than Arva, the programming is so clever and well thought out that it's just a joy to play. Only downside is a children's choir is fairly niche, so having a strings library like MSS with similar functions like detune but also a lot more makes getting MSS irresistable!


That's sort of my big problem: children's choirs are fairly niche, and yet I have too many options that would come first. I already have boys with full word builder in Symphonic Choirs, I prefer the sound of Arva and already have WoFrey so that's a logical choice, i already own the men's and women's choirs from Ark 2 and most of my template is in Teldex so adding the children's choir from Ark 2 makes sense, and then of course Genesis is in the same room as MSS which i use often. For something so niche, there are way too many good choices, and I've never written a single note for them.


----------



## Futchibon

Casiquire said:


> For something so niche, there are way too many good choices, and I've never written a single note for them.


The great thing about Genesis is that it inspires you to play and compose - and try and work in a children's choir to compositions that wouldn't ordinarily have them!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Genesis is the most beautiful, inspiring choir library I own (and I own Eric Whitacre, Strezov, and Hollywood Choirs too - so that's saying something).


----------



## Mr Greg G

I don't know if I'm starting to have audio glitches all around or if I'm just going crazy but I'm also (just discovered my Symphobia Ensemble patch has glitches) experiencing glitches in MSS with the Ensemble patch when playingF1. 

View attachment F1 glitch.mp3


Are you also experiencing this or should I schedule a session with a psychiatrist right away??


----------



## Futchibon




----------



## Futchibon




----------



## Futchibon

MSS = $549 or $499 if you own another AB product
Genesis = $199
LADD = $199
MSB = $399


----------



## Zanshin

Umm are those not the same prices from yesterday? Full MSS is def the same lol.


----------



## jbuhler

Zanshin said:


> Umm are those not the same prices from yesterday? Full MSS is def the same lol.


Genesis is $100 lower. Don’t know about the rest.


----------



## Zanshin

I guess full MSS is $1 cheaper! @Futchibon you need to get your boys in line, this milk toast sale will not do!


----------



## Futchibon

Zanshin said:


> I guess full MSS is $1 cheaper! @Futchibon you need to get your boys in line, this milk toast sale will not do!


Lol, I don't know what you're sprinkling on your milktoast, but I want some!  

MSS was 649/599 yesterday, now it's 549/499. Maybe maths works differently in the Northern hrmisphere, but that's $100 off  I'm talking about the regular version, do you mean the complete with the expanded legato? I'll post the screenshots of before and after I login.


----------



## Futchibon

Before logging in:


----------



## Futchibon

After logging in, owning Genesis:


----------



## Evans

I believe they said to wait until after noon Pacific to see all the loyalty price updates. That's about two hours from now (EDIT: err, more than that I was thinking Eastern time... I'm tired)


----------



## Zanshin

Futchibon said:


> Lol, I don't know what you're sprinkling on your milktoast, but I want some!
> 
> MSS was 649/599 yesterday, now it's 549/499. Maybe maths works differently in the Northern hrmisphere, but that's $100 off  I'm talking about the regular version, do you mean the complete with the expanded legato? I'll post the screenshots of before and after I login.


Yes, complete, the full monty is $1 off what it was yesterday. $799 vs $798. That milk toast is cold and curdled.


----------



## Futchibon

Evans said:


> I believe they said to wait until after noon Pacific to see all the loyalty price updates. That's about two hours from now.


They did indeed, but have gone early:


----------



## Evans

Futchibon said:


> They did indeed, but have gone early:


Didn't they say there was going to be at least some minor loyalty price on LASS 3 for owners of MSS? I have MSS (and MSB and Genesis), but only see the full LASS intro price while logged in.

Either I misread or it's not functioning or it's simply not all updated despite what that text says.


----------



## Futchibon

Zanshin said:


> Yes, complete, the full monty is $1 off what it was yesterday. $799 vs $798. That milk toast is cold and curdled.


The conplete is showing $649 for me, from 749. I guess they're rewarding their loyal customers and treating those who can't tell their milk from their toast with the contempt they deserve   

In any case I'm interested in the main version, 499 is same as Pacific loyalty intro


----------



## Futchibon

Evans said:


> Didn't they say there was going to be at least some minor loyalty price on LASS 3 for owners of MSS? I have MSS (and MSB and Genesis), but only see the full LASS intro price while logged in.
> 
> Either I misread or it's not functioning or it's simply not all updated despite what that text says.


I think so, yes. It may not be functioning til midday, not sure. Have you tried logging in and see if it affects the price?


----------



## Evans

Futchibon said:


> I think so, yes. It may not be functioning til midday, not sure. Have you tried logging in and see if it affects the price?


Yes, as noted above, I am logged in (100% positive I am, because if I click on the Login link it tells me that I'm already logged in). And I am also positive that I have only one set of credentials there.

My point is, it's very possible that despite what that text says that not all prices will be in until noon Pacific. Lots of people picking already in various threads on small discounts or no discounts, so let's just wait.


----------



## awaey

Evans said:


> Yes, as noted above, I am logged in (100% positive I am, because if I click on the Login link it tells me that I'm already logged in). And I am also positive that I have only one set of credentials there.
> 
> My point is, it's very possible that despite what that text says that not all prices will be in until noon Pacific. Lots of people picking already in various threads on small discounts or no discounts, so let's just wait.


*** NEW PRICES WILL BE UPDATED IN THE STORE AT NOON (LA TIME) ON BLACK FRIDAY 11/26/2021 ***


----------



## Zanshin

Yeah I guess I'm just not in at these prices. I don't want or have a pedo choir to get me a better deal 

But seriously, if I was going to get MSS I'd want to pair it with MSB, and at $949 for the two... that dog won't hunt (for me anyway). Not when Pacific is around the corner, and Berlin is priced where it is. Not complaining really, I respect they gotta make a buck or two  Maybe next year for me haha (that milk toast is gonna be really cold!!!)


----------



## Evans

awaey said:


> *** NEW PRICES WILL BE UPDATED IN THE STORE AT NOON (LA TIME) ON BLACK FRIDAY 11/26/2021 ***


Yes, that's what I've been saying. Yet others are pointing out banner changes elsewhere that say prices are now live. Which I don't think they are, per my testing.


----------



## Futchibon

Zanshin said:


> Yeah I guess I'm just not in at these prices. I don't want or have a pedo choir to get me a better deal
> 
> But seriously, if I was going to get MSS I'd want to pair it with MSB, and at $949 for the two... that dog won't hunt (for me anyway). Not when Pacific is around the corner, and Berlin is priced where it is. Not complaining really, I respect they gotta make a buck or two  Maybe next year for me haha (that milk toast is gonna be really cold!!!)


Lol, I haven't heard Genesis described in quite those terms before! 

Yeah MSB is tenpting, it's dropped $100, but Pacific and Chorus are essentials for me and I don't think I'll have the cash. I haven't looked into MSB too much, it doesn't seem to have as many featjres as MSS?
I trust Chorus is OK with you as it seems to be a 'pedoless' choir?


----------



## Zanshin

Futchibon said:


> Lol, I haven't heard Genesis described in quite those terms before!
> 
> Yeah MSB is tenpting, it's dropped $100, but Pacific and Chorus are essentials for me and I don't think I'll have the cash. I haven't looked into MSB too much, it doesn't seem to have as many featjres as MSS?
> I trust Chorus is OK with you as it seems to be a 'pedoless' choir?


LOL! As long as no children were diddled in the making of, I'm OK with whatever choir


----------



## Nando Florestan

Watch out! The loyalty pricing does not appear for me on Firefox/Windows, it did appear on Chromium/Windows though!

On Firefox the login "succeeds" but the prices don't change and there's nothing on the website to tell you whether you are logged in... The Login menu item does not change to Welcome or to Logout...

The only differences that tell you whether your login succeeded are the prices and near them. The Store page must contain text like "Upgrade from" and "Customer loyalty pricing".

EDIT: Login worked in Firefox/Windows after I deleted all cookies for that domain.


----------



## Noeticus

I had to use Chrome to login as Firefox did not work.


----------



## sostenuto

No crossgrade luv for LADD loyalists ? 💔


----------



## muziksculp

My Loyalty Prices for MSS, and Expansion. I own LASS 2.5, and LS.

But I'm not crazy about the tone of MSS. Waiting for PS Pacific Strings.


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## Noeticus

I upgraded to LASS 3 earlier today for $99.

Wow! Having the old LASS 2.5 in the new engine is FANTASTIC!


----------



## AndyP

I have send an email to the support, so far no feedback. Or is it normal for new customers that it takes longer to get information or to download the library? It is a bit unusual.

Downloader Login works fine, but that's it.

Or can it be because of my email address? Some people have problems with GMX addresses, at least that was the case here in the forum.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

AndyP said:


> I have send an email to the support, so far no feedback. Or is it normal for new customers that it takes longer to get information or to download the library? It is a bit unusual.
> 
> Downloader Login works fine, but that's it.
> 
> Or can it be because of my email address? Some people have problems with GMX addresses, at least that was the case here in the forum.


I do know the website snafu that happened recently generated an enormous number of emails for the two of them to work through, so as far as the support response goes, I’ll bet they’re a bit slogged. Wish I could offer advice for the download manager!


----------



## dxmachina

AndyP said:


> I have send an email to the support, so far no feedback. Or is it normal for new customers that it takes longer to get information or to download the library? It is a bit unusual.
> 
> Downloader Login works fine, but that's it.
> 
> Or can it be because of my email address? Some people have problems with GMX addresses, at least that was the case here in the forum.


Sorry for the delay... @gmx is returning all emails to us. We're looking for a solution, but in the meantime we will write you from another account. Won't be long.


----------



## AndyP

dxmachina said:


> Sorry for the delay... @gmx is returning all emails to us. We're looking for a solution, but in the meantime we will write you from another account. Won't be long.


Great, thank you very much! There my guess was not so much off.


----------



## Evans

Is there a general Audiobro loyalty discount for LASS 3 for those who do not own any version of LASS but have made other Audiobro purchases (MSS Full, MSB, Genesis in my case)?

I'm logged in but only see the full (intro period) pricing.


----------



## ZeeCount

Evans said:


> Is there a general Audiobro loyalty discount for LASS 3 for those who do not own any version of LASS but have made other Audiobro purchases (MSS, MSB, Genesis in my case)?


The website implies their is one, but I'm not seeing one in the store. I own Genesis and MSB and the price for LASS 3 is appearing as $399.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Grabbed LASS 3 and Modern Scoring Brass. I wish MSB had been $50 cheaper like a couple of months ago, but either way, I think it'll be worth it based on what I've seen and heard. @dxmachina any plans to bring the great lookahead feature from MSS and LASS 3 to MSB?


----------



## Futchibon




----------



## chrisphan

Noeticus said:


> I upgraded to LASS 3 earlier today for $99.
> 
> Wow! Having the old LASS 2.5 in the new engine is FANTASTIC!


Do you find any significant sonic difference between them? What about the tuning issue of some divisi sections?


----------



## alcorey

Nando Florestan said:


> Watch out! The loyalty pricing does not appear for me on Firefox/Windows, it did appear on Chromium/Windows though!
> 
> On Firefox the login "succeeds" but the prices don't change and there's nothing on the website to tell you whether you are logged in... The Login menu item does not change to Welcome or to Logout...
> 
> The only differences that tell you whether your login succeeded are the prices and near them. The Store page must contain text like "Upgrade from" and "Customer loyalty pricing".
> 
> EDIT: Login worked in Firefox/Windows after I deleted all cookies for that domain.


 Mostly I try to keep my mouth shut and not get involved with troublemakers..... but Seriously, why are you even visiting their site? After leaving the following remark in the LASS 3 thread, if I were Audiobro I would sell you nothing

"MSS sounds uninteresting, civilized, with very little vibrato.

LASS, having been recorded by 16-year-old engineers with 12-year-old violinists, sounds acid, noisy, barbaric, in your face, and you can abandon any hope of making it sound like the demos. I can almost honestly say it's a scam. But like anything else in this world, there will be people defending it. Oh and if you play ~Andante there's a sucking sound in the legatos because each note has a slight crescendo at the start. MSS suffers from none of these problems as far as I can tell not owning it but having seen all the videos possible.

Do a search for "Scoring Strings" in Soundcloud and you'll find tens of horrible mockups done with LASS. Good mockups will be one or two, plus the official demos.

At least MSS can be used rather than fought."


----------



## Nando Florestan

alcorey said:


> Mostly I try to keep my mouth shut and not get involved with troublemakers..... but Seriously, why are you even visiting their site? After leaving the following remark in the LASS 3 thread, if I were Audiobro I would sell you nothing


My answer to you would be that I am not a troublemaker, I was answering a question in that thread -- someone wanted to know the difference between MSS and LASS. The difference! There's a world of difference, the sound has nothing in common! However you see how LASS demos make it appear civilized when the civilized one is MSS -- people actually ask what the difference is!

The word "scam" and the "12 year old" remark, which were meant as almost-jokes or colorful phrasing, were taken personally by many people, which tells me users do not identify only with their DAWs, they also identify with the samples they use, and will feel threatened and offended by an accurate description of the strong acidity of some violin samples. AudioBro themselves have produced 2 string libraries after LASS and none of them has such an untamed sound, and I believe this is because they learned something.

I bought MSS yesterday because the features are awesome, the legato sounds solid, I have high hopes for the Intuition patches and there's a chance I can make the sound more interesting, in which case its blandness would be an asset, not a problem. I have nothing against Audiobro, but the way LASS is marketed is misleading at best -- the actual character of the sound is misrepresented, hidden, not acknowledged, and I would sell my license to LASS if I could. Call me "hard ears" if you want, but there are noises in the LASS samples that will not be silenced by any amount of EQ. (I'll give you an example if you ask.) And people are asking what the difference to MSS is!?

I know you don't agree with anything I said but hopefully you'll at least realize I didn't mean to be a troublemaker -- rather, in my mind, I am being responsible by warning users that mixing LASS is not for the meek.

It's also a character trait. A good friend tells me, "you make enemies way too easily" -- it's happened before. From my point of view, most people just aren't strong enough to hear a bit of truth. Also, because I say what I want, I let people say what they want to me -- no double standard there.

I can't apologize to you for expressing my feelings about a product that cost me $700 plus MONTHS of hair pulling. If I was too harsh in my words, well, so was LASS in its sound.

If you respond to this, please do it in a new thread. There's an actual Drama section in the forum for this kind of thing. I doubt I'll have anything new to say.


----------



## alcorey

Nando Florestan said:


> My answer to you would be that I am not a troublemaker, I am answering a question in that thread -- someone wanted to know the difference between MSS and LASS. The difference! There's a world of difference, the sound has nothing in common! However you see how LASS demos make it appear civilized when the civilized one is MSS -- people actually ask what the difference is!
> 
> The word "scam" and the "12 year old" thing, which were meant as almost-jokes or colorful phrasing, was taken personally by many people, which tells me users do not identify only with their DAWs, they also identify with the samples they use, and will feel threatened and offended by an accurate description of the strong acidity of some violin samples.
> 
> I bought MSS yesterday because the features are awesome, the legato sounds solid, I have high hopes for the Intuition patches and there's a chance I can make the sound more interesting, in which case its blandness would be an asset, not a problem. I have nothing against Audiobro, but the way LASS is marketed is misleading at best -- the actual character of the sound is misrepresented, hidden, not acknowledged, and I would sell my license to LASS if I could.
> 
> I know you don't agree with anything I said but hopefully you'll at least realize I didn't mean to be a troublemaker -- rather, in my mind, I am being responsible by warning users that mixing LASS is not for the meek.
> 
> It's also a character trait. A good friend tells me, "you make enemies way too easily". From my point of view, most people just aren't strong enough to hear a bit of truth. Also, because I say what I want, I let people say what they want to me -- no double standard there.


Obviously your friend knows you very well! I would not take pride in that or even try to justify it, rather I would be saddened by it and do my utmost to better myself. 

You gain nothing in this life by childish mockery of something that is not to your particular liking - rather, you show yourself as not quite up to the standards of those 12 and 16 year olds you used as a defamation of Audiobros product.

You are also a hypocrite for purchasing MSS as this was your opening statement in your defamatory post:
MSS sounds uninteresting, civilized, with very little vibrato.

Baffling - you support Audiobro with your money yet try to rip them with your words.

I hope you will come back with some kinder words for them once you have realized that MSS was actually something worth purchasing - as you just did


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Nando Florestan said:


> My answer to you would be that I am not a troublemaker, I was answering a question in that thread -- someone wanted to know the difference between MSS and LASS. The difference! There's a world of difference, the sound has nothing in common! However you see how LASS demos make it appear civilized when the civilized one is MSS -- people actually ask what the difference is!
> 
> The word "scam" and the "12 year old" remark, which were meant as almost-jokes or colorful phrasing, were taken personally by many people, which tells me users do not identify only with their DAWs, they also identify with the samples they use, and will feel threatened and offended by an accurate description of the strong acidity of some violin samples. AudioBro themselves have produced 2 string libraries after LASS and none of them has such an untamed sound, and I believe this is because they learned something.
> 
> I bought MSS yesterday because the features are awesome, the legato sounds solid, I have high hopes for the Intuition patches and there's a chance I can make the sound more interesting, in which case its blandness would be an asset, not a problem. I have nothing against Audiobro, but the way LASS is marketed is misleading at best -- the actual character of the sound is misrepresented, hidden, not acknowledged, and I would sell my license to LASS if I could. Call me "hard ears" if you want, but there are noises in the LASS samples that will not be silenced by any amount of EQ. (I'll give you an example if you ask.) And people are asking what the difference to MSS is!?
> 
> I know you don't agree with anything I said but hopefully you'll at least realize I didn't mean to be a troublemaker -- rather, in my mind, I am being responsible by warning users that mixing LASS is not for the meek.
> 
> It's also a character trait. A good friend tells me, "you make enemies way too easily" -- it's happened before. From my point of view, most people just aren't strong enough to hear a bit of truth. Also, because I say what I want, I let people say what they want to me -- no double standard there.
> 
> I can't apologize to you for expressing my feelings about a product that cost me $700 plus MONTHS of hair pulling. If I was too harsh in my words, well, so was LASS in its sound.
> 
> If you respond to this, please do it in a new thread. There's an actual Drama section in the forum for this kind of thing. I doubt I'll have anything new to say.


I understand that you're frustrated with LASS, but when you make claims like LASS's marketing is "misleading" and that's the "truth" that people aren't strong enough to hear, perhaps you may want to step back and consider that maybe your mixing abilities need work and the library is perfectly useable in skilled hands?


----------



## Nando Florestan

The marketing is totally misleading, sorry. Yesterday I discovered that they have a page about the difference between LASS and MSS. It talks about features. No verbal description of the sound is attempted, is it. Yet the main difference is the sound, LASS is in yer face with all the noises and MSS is the opposite.

Times have changed, nobody needs to go through the incredible hassle of EQing LASS, only to find that certain noises cannot be removed, they can only be hidden by 6 french horns, or by replacing the entire treble with synthy saturation, or by drenching it in reverb, which I may not want. But yes, I am not a good mixer.

Again, my choice of words was not the best, but there's nothing defamatory in the specific sentence "MSS sounds uninteresting, civilized, with very little vibrato." That's more or less common sense, isn't it. I bought it knowing what it sounds like, but that's thanks to Nathan Carlton's youtube channel -- no thanks to the official demos full of choirs and drums, just when we are trying to hear the strings... Buying MSS doesn't make me a hypocrite, it sounds unremarkable but it's full of features and I honestly have high hopes for it, since unremarkable is not necessarily a minus.

For instance, Adventure Strings is incapable of tender words too, but somehow you go in knowing that. But Audiobro, instead of owning the actual sound of LASS, just confuses customers, intentionally or not.

Sorry, AudioBro can be much more honest and direct in the way they market their stuff. Hopefully in this post I gave some pointers how to do that. If not, just contrast with Performance Samples. Enough said? Can this thread go back to normal now? Thanks.


----------



## alcorey

Nando Florestan said:


> The marketing is totally misleading, sorry. Yesterday I discovered that they have a page about the difference between LASS and MSS. It talks about features. No verbal description of the sound is attempted, is it. Yet the main difference is the sound, LASS is in yer face with all the noises and MSS is the opposite.
> 
> Times have changed, nobody needs to go through the incredible hassle of EQing LASS, only to find that certain noises cannot be removed, they can only be hidden by 6 french horns, or by removing the entire treble and putting it back with synthy saturation, or by drenching it in reverb, which I may not want. But yes, I am not a good mixer.
> 
> Again, my choice of words was not the best, but there's nothing defamatory in the specific sentence "MSS sounds uninteresting, civilized, with very little vibrato." That's more or less common sense, isn't it. I bought it knowing what it sounds like, but that's thanks to Nathan Carlton's youtube channel -- no thanks to the official demos full of choirs and drums, just when we are trying to hear the strings... Buying MSS doesn't make me a hypocrite, it sounds unremarkable but it's full of features and I honestly have high hopes for it, since unremarkable is not necessarily a minus.
> 
> Sorry, AudioBro can be much more honest and direct in the way they market their stuff. Hopefully in this post I gave some pointers how to do that. If not, just contrast with Performance Samples. Enough said? Can this thread go back to normal now? Thanks.


I actually tried to be patient and as kind as I could be with you and your awkward philosophy towards Audiobro and now realize - you don't really listen to anyones opinion except your own. 
So it's the ignore button for me and good luck in taming your ego


----------



## Nando Florestan

I don't change my opinion to be nice to anyone, I change my opinion proportionately to the strength of the arguments. By the way, only now do I realize, you are the guy who made the near-racist comment "What happens in Brazil should stay in Brazil". I shouldn't have answered anything to you and I certainly won't take moral advice from you after the prejudice you demonstrated. Please go ahead and ignore me, before I start following your example and quoting YOUR missteps in any thread you go to.






MSS vs LASS 3







www.audiobro.com





They say LASS is more "intimate" and more "chamber"-like. It sure is intimate in the sense of "in yer face", couldn't get nearer. But intimate in the sense of ability to whisper, kiss, confess a feeling? I beg to differ!


----------



## AndyP

@Nando, I think we get your point. I respect your opinion, just as I respect the opinion of others. 
Maybe it makes more sense to ask experienced users of LASS for tips and tricks on how to soften the sound to your taste. That would be constructive and maybe help others who have problems with the sound. What do you think?


----------



## Nando Florestan

I worked under the illusion that I could "fix" LASS for years. The sound can be softened, yes, but it cannot be fixed where it's out of tune, noisy, or where the EQ would have to vary per note. Times have changed, the number of libraries is now huge, so insisting on LASS even further would not be a great use of my time.

And you know what is also constructive? To let customers know that the product doesn't sound like the demos unless you also buy a mixing course and spend years training and then months actually EQing it in excruciating detail -- none of which is necessary for contemporary libraries.

I won't respond to this any further, by ganging up on me you managed to get me tired.


----------



## alcorey

AndyP said:


> @Nando, I think we get your point. I respect your opinion, just as I respect the opinion of others.
> Maybe it makes more sense to ask experienced users of LASS for tips and tricks on how to soften the sound to your taste. That would be constructive and maybe help others who have problems with the sound. What do you think?


Very valiant post Andy - and I hope it is effective. I just feel that he doesn't understand how much damage he can (or has) done to a small hard working team - Audiobro - with his ridiculous rant about LASS - two guys who would bend over backwards for any one of their customers (including him)........and what has he gained, against what they may have lost???
And I put him on ignore so that my boiling blood may return to a simmer


----------



## Laddy

Is there any aprox. date for the next MSS update? Curious about those "colour presets"..


----------



## Noc

Laddy said:


> Is there any aprox. date for the next MSS update? Curious about those "colour presets"..


I’m looking forward to that sonic presets update like you wouldn’t believe. I’ve long championed LASS thanks in part to the color profiles that added such fantastic versatility to it, so adding that to MSS – in addition to the existing Brightness knob – would be fantastic.


----------



## Limeopolis

@dxmachina made a purchase and it said there was a paypal error but it looks like it went through, but i haven't received anything


----------



## alcorey

Limeopolis said:


> @dxmachina made a purchase and it said there was a paypal error but it looks like it went through, but i haven't received anything


Same thing happened to me - I kept refreshing that page and finally it worked


----------



## dxmachina

Limeopolis said:


> @dxmachina made a purchase and it said there was a paypal error but it looks like it went through, but i haven't received anything


Send us an email ([email protected]) -- we'll get right back to you. We managed to catch up to emails finally so unless you catch us in the middle of the night we'll get back right away.


----------



## Limeopolis

dxmachina said:


> Send us an email ([email protected]) -- we'll get right back to you. We managed to catch up to emails finally so unless you catch us in the middle of the night we'll get back right away.


Thanks! Just sent an email.


----------



## dxmachina

@Limeopolis Check your inbox.


----------



## Limeopolis

Thanks for the very quick reply!


----------



## jadedsean

Just bought the update, sorry if this was already asked but should i do a full install or Reinstall library folder without samples?


----------



## Noc

jadedsean said:


> Just bought the update, sorry if this was already asked but should i do a full install or Reinstall library folder without samples?


You need to download the LASS 3 samples. LASS 3 is not compatible with LASS 2.5/earlier samples.


----------



## Casiquire

jadedsean said:


> Just bought the update, sorry if this was already asked but should i do a full install or Reinstall library folder without samples?


You're referring to LASS?


----------



## jadedsean

Casiquire said:


> You're referring to LASS?


Yes, i have Lass 2.5 and wondered if it is a complete new install or what? Heard some people had issues and thought i would ask before i mess things up.


----------



## Casiquire

jadedsean said:


> Yes, i have Lass 2.5 and wondered if it is a complete new install or what? Heard some people had issues and thought i would ask before i mess things up.


Yeah it's a new install. There's probably more information about it in the LASS thread.


----------



## jadedsean

Noc said:


> You need to download the LASS 3 samples. LASS 3 is not compatible with LASS 2.5/earlier samples.





Casiquire said:


> Yeah it's a new install. There's probably more information about it in the LASS thread.


Ah cheers lads much appreciated.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi MSS users,

Can you post some links to some of the MSS demos that you think have a wonderful, and rich timbre, with a lot of expressive phrasing of this library. 

I'm still undecided about buying it, mainly because of this detail. I might change my mind if I hear some convincing demos. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Noeticus

muziksculp said:


> Hi MSS users,
> 
> Can you post some links to some of the MSS demos that you think have a wonderful, and rich timbre, with a lot of expressive phrasing of this library.
> 
> I'm still undecided about buying it, mainly because of this detail. I might change my mind if I hear some convincing demos.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


Dear Muziksculp,

I have a strong feeling that you are going to buy MSS.

I base this statement on reading many of your posts.

MSS is far too good to pass on at the sale price. (or wait perhaps for Christmas sale)

When I combine MSS and LASS 3 together it's like having a super LASS 4 (or a super MSS 2).


----------



## muziksculp

Noeticus said:


> Dear Muziksculp,
> 
> I have a strong feeling that you are going to buy MSS.
> 
> I base this statement on reading many of your posts.
> 
> MSS is far too good to pass on at the sale price. (or wait perhaps for Christmas sale)
> 
> When I combine MSS and LASS 3 together it's like having a super LASS 4 (or a super MSS 2).


Will there be a better discount during their Christmas Sale ?

My MSS loyalty price is $399.

Listening to some wonderful sounding MSS demos, with a beautiful timbre, and expressive movement would build up my GAS levels to the purchasing point. The price alone is not enough to make me purchase MSS.


----------



## coprhead6

How dry is MSS for scoring stage reverb purposes? Would it take a Teldex IR well to blend with Berlin, or would that become early-reflection soup? 

I guess there’s another implied question there: 
How do you MSS owners like to blend it with wetter libraries like Spitfire and Berlin?


----------



## Casiquire

coprhead6 said:


> How dry is MSS for scoring stage reverb purposes? Would it take a Teldex IR well to blend with Berlin, or would that become early-reflection soup?
> 
> I guess there’s another implied question there:
> How do you MSS owners like to blend it with wetter libraries like Spitfire and Berlin?


It's very dry. You can hear the room and the room tone is nice, but it's short and light.

I would worry less about a Teldex IR specifically, though it's not a bad place to start. Any kind of clear tail that's about the same length would get you in the ballpark


----------



## Russell Anderson

I hope the sale goes past tonight and tomorrow, as I have some relatively intensive listening tests to put MSS through before pulling any triggers, and I’ll be gone at work for the next 14 hours.

I’m going to see if I can achieve blending between it and LAMP/Cineperc, AROOF/Century/Infinite brass and ww, and NSS/SCS/Vista.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi MSS users, 

Do you find the MSS Intuition Series Instruments that are included in MSS useful ? do you use them frequently ? 

Any feedback on these additional instruments would be interesting. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## chapbot

muziksculp said:


> Hi MSS users,
> 
> Do you find the MSS Intuition Series Instruments that are included in MSS useful ? do you use them frequently ?
> 
> Any feedback on these additional instruments would be interesting.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp



Great question! I thought this was the coolest thing about the library and should be developed further.


----------



## Nando Florestan

The Intuition patches are certainly useful for playing live. Since most users aren't doing that and actually prefer deliberate articulation choice when making mockups, I don't think the Intuition patches are being used a lot.

The Intuition patches are a way for you not to spend money, SSD and RAM on the special legatos (sordino, sul tasto and sul ponticello). They are the only place in MSS where you find these sounds faked, and they sound good.

On the other hand, there's too much missing from Intuition -- trills, for example. I believe this means there are no sul tasto trills in MSS. If you are mocking something up, you can start by playing it on Intuition, but at some point you'll have to complement it with the main patches. This Fear of Missing Out made me go directly to the main patches and I haven't used Intuition a lot in a week with the library, although I plan to.


----------



## muziksculp

Nando Florestan said:


> The Intuition patches are certainly useful for playing live. Since most users aren't doing that and actually prefer deliberate articulation choice when making mockups, I don't think the Intuition patches are being used a lot.
> 
> The Intuition patches are a way for you not to spend money, SSD and RAM on the special legatos (sordino, sul tasto and sul ponticello). They are the only place in MSS where you find these sounds faked, and they sound good.
> 
> On the other hand, there's too much missing from Intuition -- trills, for example. I believe this means there are no sul tasto trills in MSS. If you are mocking something up, you can start by playing it on Intuition, but at some point you'll have to complement it with the main patches. This Fear of Missing Out made me go directly to the main patches and I haven't used Intuition a lot in a week with the library, although I plan to.


Thanks for the helpful feedback


----------



## robh

Here's a video link to a mock up I did using Modern Scoring Strings, Modern Scoring Brass, L.A. Drama Drums, and the discontinued WIVI.



It's Gustav Holst: Mars, The Bringer Of War

Rob


----------



## youngpokie

I'm struggling to set up MSS main and expanded in a way that only one of them sounds when triggered. The two patches a loaded in the same Kontakt instance and assigned to the same MIDI channel. 

For some reason I can't find a way to silence the previous articulation following the switch between these two instruments - the intended articulation is triggered correctly but it is always on top of the prior one. There must be a way to create a "blank" articulation but how?

Appreciate any help!


----------



## Casiquire

youngpokie said:


> I'm struggling to set up MSS main and expanded in a way that only one of them sounds when triggered. The two patches a loaded in the same Kontakt instance and assigned to the same MIDI channel.
> 
> For some reason I can't find a way to silence the previous articulation following the switch between these two instruments - the intended articulation is triggered correctly but it is always on top of the prior one. There must be a way to create a "blank" articulation but how?
> 
> Appreciate any help!


Next to the Switcher label on the main page there's a little gear button. Hit that and you'll discover a wonderful world of customizability! Took me a while to find that too, the library is just so deep


----------



## youngpokie

Casiquire said:


> Hit that and you'll discover a wonderful world of customizability!


Thanks for this. Yes, I've found it and already used it to program articulations. It's indeed very useful! The problem is that any articulation in Expanded Legato does not mute the articulation in the Main patch (I have both loaded at once).

EDIT: I should mention that I'm using MIDI CC to cycle between Tile configurations in the Switcher, not a KeySwitch.


----------



## Casiquire

youngpokie said:


> Thanks for this. Yes, I've found it and already used it to program articulations. It's indeed very useful! The problem is that any articulation in Expanded Legato does not mute the articulation in the Main patch (I have both loaded at once).
> 
> EDIT: I should mention that I'm using MIDI CC to cycle between Tile configurations in the Switcher, not a KeySwitch.


Oh how odd, i thought it did silence them. Maybe as a workaround, set for example C#1 to "sul tasto sustain" and then in the performance window turn the volume all the way down (not the global volume control in the middle, the smaller articulation one toward the left). Technically the articulation would be playing in the background, but it's going to be loaded into RAM regardless so at least it doesn't increase that load

Edit, i only use keyswitches but I'm sure that option is still analogous in your situation using CC controls


----------



## robh

youngpokie said:


> I'm struggling to set up MSS main and expanded in a way that only one of them sounds when triggered. The two patches a loaded in the same Kontakt instance and assigned to the same MIDI channel.
> 
> For some reason I can't find a way to silence the previous articulation following the switch between these two instruments - the intended articulation is triggered correctly but it is always on top of the prior one. There must be a way to create a "blank" articulation but how?
> 
> Appreciate any help!


Someone asked about something similar to this on the Audiobro forum. Sebastian said an update early in the new year would make this possible.

In the meantime you will probably have to separate by MIDI channel for now.

Rob


----------



## Vik

youngpokie said:


> For some reason I can't find a way to silence the previous articulation following the switch between these two instruments - the intended articulation is triggered correctly but it is always on top of the prior one. There must be a way to create a "blank" articulation but how?


Berlin Strings have had something similar for years: we can allow the level of one of the Kontakt instances to be altered, positively, by eg. CC4, and the other to be altered, negatively, by the same CC. This way you don't only get a cross-switch between two Kontakt instances, you get a crossfade. Maybe there's a cross-switch option in there too – not sure. Hopefully all libraries will get such options, because this would let us crossfade or -switch between libraries from different companies.


----------



## studioj

youngpokie said:


> I'm struggling to set up MSS main and expanded in a way that only one of them sounds when triggered. The two patches a loaded in the same Kontakt instance and assigned to the same MIDI channel.
> 
> For some reason I can't find a way to silence the previous articulation following the switch between these two instruments - the intended articulation is triggered correctly but it is always on top of the prior one. There must be a way to create a "blank" articulation but how?
> 
> Appreciate any help!


I got around this shortcoming by using the free KSP script “Flex Router”… you can search for it here on the forum. It lets you key switch between different kontakt patches on different midi channels (I’m using cc also). It’s working well for this use case but I do hope they add exclusive switching groups a la UACC.


----------



## youngpokie

Thanks for these suggestions! For now, I'm trying out the approach suggested by @Casiquire, creating a "dummy" tile in which the volume is turned down and which is triggered simultaneously with the desired tile in the other patch, all the while using MIDI CC. 

Seems to work (have done it only one-way so far): I guess this is because an articulation can be re-used in more than one Tile in the Switcher and its controls are independent from other tiles. Hopefully this solution will be enough until the update comes out, but I have to finish programming it first.


----------



## richhickey

While the separate legato expansion might serve Audiobro from a Kontakt licensing perspective, it does not serve the users _at all_ IMO. I want these legatos in place, switched as are the primary legatos. It's simple maddening to be in the main interface and switch from arco to sordino/sul tasto/sul pont and have the legato button go dead. I've paid for the expansion but never use it due to the hassle.


----------



## dzilizzi

richhickey said:


> While the separate legato expansion might serve Audiobro from a Kontakt licensing perspective, it does not serve the users _at all_ IMO. I want these legatos in place, switched as are the primary legatos. It's simple maddening to be in the main interface and switch from arco to sordino/sul tasto/sul pont and have the legato button go dead. I've paid for the expansion but never use it due to the hassle.


I think it is not so much licensing but Kontakt limits the number of samples in a library. All I know is both Embertone and Spitfire have mentioned it being a problem if they have more than a limited number of mic positions. Each mic in The Walker is a separate instrument, which is kind of a pain. You can make a multi with it though. And it was the initial reason Spitfire created their own player and the SSO extra mics are a separate instrument.


----------



## Wunderhorn

dzilizzi said:


> I think it is not so much licensing but Kontakt limits the number of samples in a library. All I know is both Embertone and Spitfire have mentioned it being a problem if they have more than a limited number of mic positions. Each mic in The Walker is a separate instrument, which is kind of a pain. You can make a multi with it though. And it was the initial reason Spitfire created their own player and the SSO extra mics are a separate instrument.


I'd rather have separate instruments for mic positions than having to deal with that clunky Spitfire Player...


----------



## Living Fossil

richhickey said:


> I've paid for the expansion but never use it due to the hassle.


I have the expansion on midi channel 2 (and the main patch on channel 1)
Works perfectly fine.


----------



## Casiquire

I don't find it annoying enough not to use them and they're so beautiful, but there probably could be a smoother implementation. Like maybe Audiobro can have the default keyswitches match up so that they make room for one another and are smart enough to disable when the other is selected


----------



## Baronvonheadless

^^So, I'm still only a year or so into midi on my own findings and research. This is one angle I still haven't quite learned in Logic yet, do any of you use Logic or know any good video tutorials of setting these kind of things up? I've still not been able to find any, but I probably don't even know specifically what to search for.

This is regarding setting up articulations in logic etc and routing midi to different channels.

AS of now I just load a patch in one track for legatos, a patch in one track for shorts etc.
Or just load the main patch in one track and use key switches.


The thing is, I wonder if some of my confusion/problem is that I use the M-Audio Keystation 61. Which is an older midi keyboard.

Previously I had a small MPK225. When using that, any vst I loaded played fine.

With my bigger, but older m-audio one, nothing plays in the default setting. Except for the Spitfire Player and Felt Instruments vsts

With Kontakt lnstruments I have to go in and switch it from a1 to omni and then the keyboard will trigger the library.

With SINE player I have to change the actual logic track to Channel 1 instead of All. 

So would this mess up routing to different midi channels?
I'm getting pretty good at composing but as far as (what seems to me as) complex midi arranging and modification, I'm still as noob as can be and rather lost.

Appreciate any good beginner tutorials for these kinds of routing questions. Thanks y'all!


----------



## youngpokie

Baronvonheadless said:


> So would this mess up routing to different midi channels?


That's my thinking too, although for completely different reason: I need to have both main and expanded in the same Kontakt instance and on the same MIDI channel in order to have it work properly in Dorico. 

And unfortunately, what I thought of as a solution earlier ended up not working for now. I got all excited with Tiles switching because most (all?) articulations were pre-programmed. It would have made my Expression Maps a piece of cake with one parameter only in each. And I could spare an entry to turn it into a dummy switch.

But setting up all 4 switchers as Tiles doesn't seem to work, MSS stays on the first active one (unless I'm doing it wrong as always). So I had to go back to Artic Switching and my Legato con sordino problem is back to "unresolved" status. This is setting up to be a lost weekend...


----------



## alcorey

Baronvonheadless said:


> ^^So, I'm still only a year or so into midi on my own findings and research. This is one angle I still haven't quite learned in Logic yet, do any of you use Logic or know any good video tutorials of setting these kind of things up? I've still not been able to find any, but I probably don't even know specifically what to search for.
> 
> This is regarding setting up articulations in logic etc and routing midi to different channels.
> 
> AS of now I just load a patch in one track for legatos, a patch in one track for shorts etc.
> Or just load the main patch in one track and use key switches.
> 
> 
> The thing is, I wonder if some of my confusion/problem is that I use the M-Audio Keystation 61. Which is an older midi keyboard.
> 
> Previously I had a small MPK225. When using that, any vst I loaded played fine.
> 
> With my bigger, but older m-audio one, nothing plays in the default setting. Except for the Spitfire Player and Felt Instruments vsts
> 
> With Kontakt lnstruments I have to go in and switch it from a1 to omni and then the keyboard will trigger the library.
> 
> With SINE player I have to change the actual logic track to Channel 1 instead of All.
> 
> So would this mess up routing to different midi channels?
> I'm getting pretty good at composing but as far as (what seems to me as) complex midi arranging and modification, I'm still as noob as can be and rather lost.
> 
> Appreciate any good beginner tutorials for these kinds of routing questions. Thanks y'all!



Here are a couple of sites that you may find helpful - I use Babylon Waves articulation sets for Logic









Buy Logic Articulation Sets


Buy 9000 Professional Articulation Maps for Apple Logic - support for all major orchestra libraries.




www.babylonwaves.com










Logic Pro GEM - Resources for Logic Pro X


LogicProGEM provides valuable resources for Logic Pro X, especially the in-depth, graphically enhanced tutorials about various topics. Find all the links to the Logic Pro X books, available from the best-selling Graphically Enhanced Manuals series (GEM).




logicprogem.com













Free Logic Pro Video Tutorials - Watch Them Now


We have a huge collection of Logic Pro X videos from respected Logic Pro trainers around the world, many of them free.




www.pro-tools-expert.com


----------



## Casiquire

youngpokie said:


> That's my thinking too, although for completely different reason: I need to have both main and expanded in the same Kontakt instance and on the same MIDI channel in order to have it work properly in Dorico.
> 
> And unfortunately, what I thought of as a solution earlier ended up not working for now. I got all excited with Tiles switching because most (all?) articulations were pre-programmed. It would have made my Expression Maps a piece of cake with one parameter only in each. And I could spare an entry to turn it into a dummy switch.
> 
> But setting up all 4 switchers as Tiles doesn't seem to work, MSS stays on the first active one (unless I'm doing it wrong as always). So I had to go back to Artic Switching and my Legato con sordino problem is back to "unresolved" status. This is setting up to be a lost weekend...


As much as I'm trying to help, my workflow is so different that my insight is super limited, but the team at Audiobro is wonderfully obsessive about their babies and I'd bring it up in their forums. It sounds like they're working on an update that might help, but they may have suggestions for you. Have you tried asking there yet?


----------



## olilo

youngpokie said:


> That's my thinking too, although for completely different reason: I need to have both main and expanded in the same Kontakt instance and on the same MIDI channel in order to have it work properly in Dorico.


Good news: You don't need to have main and expanded on the same MIDI channel. Here's how it works perfectly fine for me in Dorico:

All MSS patches are in the same Kontakt instance as follows 






Please note the following:
For each instrument the main and expanded legato patches are on consecutive channels, but output to the same stem.
Your patch names will look different. I made changes to some of the settings in each patch and saved them under a new name.


In the corresponding expression map in Dorico you will need to add a "Relative Channel Change Action" on top of the list of the actions you define for your articulation switch:






You also need to add a relative channel change at the bottom of the actions in the "Off events" to switch back.





Hope this helps you to get your set-up running. MSS and Dorico play together very nicely, so it's definitely worth some initial hassle.


----------



## youngpokie

olilo said:


> For each instrument the main and expanded legato patches are on consecutive channels, but output to the same stem.


@olilo Thank you so much for this. I'm going to try it out this afternoon.

One thing that gives me pause is the divisi. Dorico handles divisi by allocating the splits to consecutive MIDI channels. In my case, for example, I have "unis" playing at Channel 1 and then for divisi the Div A goes to Channel 2, Div B goes to Channel 3. 

How do you handle that? Thanks!


----------



## olilo

youngpokie said:


> @olilo Thank you so much for this. I'm going to try it out this afternoon.
> 
> One thing that gives me pause is the divisi. Dorico handles divisi by allocating the splits to consecutive MIDI channels. In my case, for example, I have "unis" playing at Channel 1 and then for divisi the Div A goes to Channel 2, Div B goes to Channel 3.
> 
> How do you handle that? Thanks!


Short answer: I don't. That's because for my divisi writing MSS's autodivisi is sufficient, i.e. my Violin 1 patch uses both Violin 1a and Violin 1b and I let MSS take care of divisi. 

This works well as long as the two divisi use the same articulation. If, however for example, Div A were to use legato and Div B pizzicato then you would need to route the divisi in Dorico. But you can overwrite Dorico's suggestion of consecutive channels and choose channels that match your set-up in Kontakt.


----------



## richhickey

dzilizzi said:


> I think it is not so much licensing but Kontakt limits the number of samples in a library.


Have audiobro actually said that was the problem? If so there are alternatives that would keep all the sordinos/tastos etc together for instance which would also be better than what we've got. Since this directly co-aligns with the expansion pricing model, I'll continue to presume that's what's driving it.


----------



## Trevor Meier

richhickey said:


> Have audiobro actually said that was the problem? If so there are alternatives that would keep all the sordinos/tastos etc together for instance which would also be better than what we've got. Since this directly co-aligns with the expansion pricing model, I'll continue to presume that's what's driving it.


Yes, I have a direct reply from Sebastien stating that Kontakt isn’t able to handle all of the samples in one instance. The next release will have a workaround for this specific problem, so they’re on it


----------



## Lilwing

Hello everyone!
I'm shy to ask but could someone enlighten me a little on MSS please?

This thread has a lot of pages already and I can't read it all, I'm sorry if the answer is in it already.
But does MSS has all the articulations for everyday use? Am I right if I say it doesn't have stacatos for example?
I like the sound a lot, very much. But I can't buy it right now if it doesn't have many articulations, I have no other strings library.
If it has all the articulations I need I will go for it, it sounds gorgeous.
Thank you


----------



## Wenlone

Lilwing said:


> Hello everyone!
> I'm shy to ask but could someone enlighten me a little on MSS please?
> 
> This thread has a lot of pages already and I can't read it all, I'm sorry if the answer is in it already.
> But does MSS has all the articulations for everyday use? Am I right if I say it doesn't have stacatos for example?
> I like the sound a lot, very much. But I can't buy it right now if it doesn't have many articulations, I have no other strings library.
> If it has all the articulations I need I will go for it, it sounds gorgeous.
> Thank you


----------



## Noc

Lilwing said:


> Hello everyone!
> I'm shy to ask but could someone enlighten me a little on MSS please?
> 
> This thread has a lot of pages already and I can't read it all, I'm sorry if the answer is in it already.
> But does MSS has all the articulations for everyday use? Am I right if I say it doesn't have stacatos for example?
> I like the sound a lot, very much. But I can't buy it right now if it doesn't have many articulations, I have no other strings library.
> If it has all the articulations I need I will go for it, it sounds gorgeous.
> Thank you


Heya Lilwing, and welcome to the forum!

MSS absolutely has staccatos, and several shorts in fact, including spiccatos, staccatissimos and more. You can find a very handy chart on all the articulations MSS has, along with a lot more general information about the library, right here on Audiobro’s site. (Edit: Naturally, as I was typing this out, someone went and posted the chart itself right above me. So there you go.




) But basically, it has all the standard articulations you’d expect a workhorse strings library to have (and a few extras, such as sampled sordinos, sul tasto and sul ponticello). It doesn’t have some more esoteric things, such as legato harmonics or sordino shorts, but it’ll still get you 95% of the way there, and is perfect for general use.


----------



## Evans

Lilwing said:


> Hello everyone!
> I'm shy to ask but could someone enlighten me a little on MSS please?
> 
> This thread has a lot of pages already and I can't read it all, I'm sorry if the answer is in it already.
> But does MSS has all the articulations for everyday use? Am I right if I say it doesn't have stacatos for example?
> I like the sound a lot, very much. But I can't buy it right now if it doesn't have many articulations, I have no other strings library.
> If it has all the articulations I need I will go for it, it sounds gorgeous.
> Thank you


Hi! In addition to the graphic posted above, I recommend you watch most of the videos here:
Audiobro MSS Playlist on YouTube

You can possibly skip the "DAW Integrations" videos for now, but for such a large purchase it would benefit you by giving the others a look!


----------



## dzilizzi

This is one of those libraries that is very complicated and can sound really lovely but may take some work getting dialed in. I don't have it yet myself, partially because I don't have the time to learn it. It is on my list to get. 

You may want to skim through a bit of this thread and check out @Soundbed's posts and YouTube channel if you get the library. Lots of great tips.


----------



## Soundbed

dzilizzi said:


> check out @Soundbed's posts and YouTube channel if you get the library. Lots of great tips.


Thanks for the mention!



Lilwing said:


> Am I right if I say it doesn't have stacatos for example?


Here's a video on MSS shorts (and repeated notes)




The links below should take you directly to the section in the video.

0:00 Repeating notes (rebows)
2:00 Shorts Viola
6:23 Shorts Cellos
10:26 Shorts Violins 2
12:49 Shorts Violins 1
14:12 Shorts Cellos (again)
19:15 Shorts Basses
20:24 Shorts All

***

(This video was not sponsored. I made this video to explore the library myself. Hope this helps others in some small way.)

For the repeated notes, I left Release Triggers on, in case that makes a difference. I detected some timing differences between divisi A and B especially in the violins. You can decide if they sound natural or "realistic" to you.

There are so many ways to explore the short notes. In general I found Slam adds definition and accent, Marcato smoothes out the dynamics.

Slam and Marcato together almost nullify each other (not really, but together they seem to add more accent with a reduced, smoothed out dynamic range).

The combination of Tighten with Auto on or manually adjusted, with the mic positions and the divisi means there's tons of shorts to choose from, and adding Humanization (especially for tuning) really makes the variations quite usable in my opinion. You may have different opinions.


----------



## Futchibon

dzilizzi said:


> This is one of those libraries that is very complicated and can sound really lovely but may take some work getting dialed in. I don't have it yet myself, partially because I don't have the time to learn it. It is on my list to get.


The great thing about MSS is it can be very simple and you can start straight away, and then learn the new features if and when you need them.


----------



## dzilizzi

Futchibon said:


> The great thing about MSS is it can be very simple and you can start straight away, and then learn the new features if and when you need them.


I don't really like the sound out of the box, personally. It wasn't until users started playing with it that it sounded good to me.


----------



## Noc

dzilizzi said:


> I don't really like the sound out of the box, personally. It wasn't until users started playing with it that it sounded good to me.


Same. Turning off those default sends/reverbs/IRs/etc. – and the Mix mic IMO – goes a long way.


----------



## Russell Anderson

dzilizzi said:


> I don't really like the sound out of the box, personally. It wasn't until users started playing with it that it sounded good to me.


Try playing your libraries over the top of the demos. Also, listen to the Star Trek: Picard series soundtrack.

…



Futchibon said:


> you can start straight away


In the past week I’ve been thinking about it really hard, and I’m strongly leaning towards, tonight, a dietary change.


----------



## muziksculp

Russell Anderson said:


> Also, listen to the Star Trek: Picard series soundtrack.


@Russell Anderson 

That's a great soundtrack by Jeff Russo. 

Are you saying MSS strings sound similar/have the character of to those I hear in the Picard soundtrack ? 

Do you use MSS, or are you thinking about buying it ? 

Still trying to make up my mind about MSS. 

Thanks.


----------



## Russell Anderson

muziksculp said:


> @Russell Anderson
> 
> That's a great soundtrack by Jeff Russo.
> 
> Are you saying MSS strings sound similar/have the character of to those I hear in the Picard soundtrack ?
> 
> Do you use MSS, or are you thinking about buying it ?
> 
> Still trying to make up my mind about MSS.
> 
> Thanks.


They do, I mean, you can listen yourself and see if you agree. 

They actually sound remarkably similar to a lot of soundtracks I enjoy. I don’t own MSS, but… let’s just say milk and toast are highly fortifying foods.


----------



## Lilwing

Wow, thank you so very much to you all for your help!
I'm overwhelmed by all this kindness to help me get started, I didn't expect so much.
Thank you for all the links and infos, I'm checking out all of this right now.
It's amazing!
All the videos sound really beautiful, and @Sounbed your work is awesome.

I'm glad to learn it in fact has all of the articulations I need.
I'm very new to sample libraries. I have Berlin Woodwinds, Andea and Berlin Percussions for now.
I think I would like MSS because it seems to have a very "filmic" kind of sound, without being too dark, or too boxy. Also having divisis seems amazing.

I'm also looking at Spitfire, Berlin and CSS, but even if I really love the Spitfire sound in SSS and SCS, they represent a lot of money if you want the two.
The same for Berlin, + the VAT.
CSS + CS2 sound really fantastic layered together, like in Anne-Kathrin Dern's video on YouTube.
But I'm not so sure I really love the sound of CSS alone , I can't decide, I have trouble knowing it.
At the same time, CSS's demos completely blew me away, I love them more than any demo I've heard.
But MSS seems to really fit the kind of music I aim to be writing, plus you can I believe create whatever section size you want.
I just fear it's a too big/advanced library compared to my current skills. But I rather would not want to invest in a starter kit, I would prefer to have a really advanced library already.


----------



## dzilizzi

Lilwing said:


> Wow, thank you so very much to you all for your help!
> I'm overwhelmed by all this kindness to help me get started, I didn't expect so much.
> Thank you for all the links and infos, I'm checking out all of this right now.
> It's amazing!
> All the videos sound really beautiful, and @Sounbed your work is awesome.
> 
> I'm glad to learn it in fact has all of the articulations I need.
> I'm very new to sample libraries. I have Berlin Woodwinds, Andea and Berlin Percussions for now.
> I think I would like MSS because it seems to have a very "filmic" kind of sound, without being too dark, or too boxy. Also having divisis seems amazing.
> 
> I'm also looking at Spitfire, Berlin and CSS, but even if I really love the Spitfire sound in SSS and SCS, they represent a lot of money if you want the two.
> The same for Berlin, + the VAT.
> CSS + CS2 sound really fantastic layered together, like in Anne-Kathrin Dern's video on YouTube.
> But I'm not so sure I really love the sound of CSS alone , I can't decide, I have trouble knowing it.
> At the same time, CSS's demos completely blew me away, I love them more than any demo I've heard.
> But MSS seems to really fit the kind of music I aim to be writing, plus you can I believe create whatever section size you want.
> I just fear it's a too big/advanced library compared to my current skills. But I rather would not want to invest in a starter kit, I would prefer to have a really advanced library already.


Much as I love SSS and SCS, if you have Berlin percussion and winds, you may want to stick to a similar sounding soundstage to make matching easier. MSS should work. Actually Teldex seems to go well with most places without much adjustment except Air Lyndhurst. Another option is EW Hollywood OPUS. It will give you all 4 parts, though their winds are just okay, so you will want to use BWW. They have regular good sales. But go with what you like the sound of.


----------



## Russell Anderson

^ HW Opus is excellent, too. Doesn't really do divisi besides spot mics, but it's still one of the best of the heavy-hitter libraries 10+ years after release and it was even just revamped so that should tell you something. I'd say MSS is a more fully-featured string section, but Opus is also the literal entire orchestra and almost as deep, and the woodwind legatos are not good. Everything else is.



Lilwing said:


> But I'm not so sure I really love the sound of CSS alone , I can't decide, I have trouble knowing it.
> At the same time, CSS's demos completely blew me away, I love them more than any demo I've heard.
> But MSS seems to really fit the kind of music I aim to be writing, plus you can I believe create whatever section size you want.
> I just fear it's a too big/advanced library compared to my current skills. But I rather would not want to invest in a starter kit, I would prefer to have a really advanced library already.


Bear with me...






Mockup of The Starkiller by JW - CSS (Now with Spitfire Appassionata)


This post from @sIR dORT : https://vi-control.net/community/threads/hws-divisi-test.102464/ inspired me to try a mockup of this stunning string cue from John Williams. All CSS, with a single CSSS violin on the violin1 part for a little detail. some EQ and color flavors from Gulfoss and VSL...




vi-control.net





The above thread shows a very capably used CSS and MSS and BSS. The uploader has years more practice with CSS and that MSS mockup on page 2 I believe was within the first few days of using MSS. They're both amazing libraries for film. MSS is definitely more feature-rich and the price reflects that. Listen closely to film/TV/game scores that you like and compare with the libraries' sounds and features, the MSS room for some is (as with the CSS room) disagreeable, but more and more I find it's actually very filmic and traditional and heard often; CSS is smaller, more vintage and emotional. But you can stretch either library either way tonally and adjust how "big" it is using EQ, saturation and some creative spatialization (that's a can of worms you can ask about later! Or look it up here)

Also to consider is that MSS has the rough equivalent of CSSS built right in, a solo instrument of every section besides bass and of course the divisis. Also to consider is that if you find a desire for a lot more heavy-handed vibrato and emotion, you can always layer in a second string library that specializes in that later on. Vista or Soaring Strings for the sweeping emotion, and Nashville Scoring Strings for a little bit more between emotional and curled-lip trailer strings because of the playing style, the bowed legato emphasis and their tone. All of these sound fantastic and layer excellently (and NSS is a whole library not confined to legatos, with excellent shorts and low strings). Vista and SS just sound sublime.

Finally, I own SCS, I like SCS... I'd say tread with caution. As a first library, it has a lot of hurdles to overcome in intonation/crossfading in legato transitions. Keep in mind it's a chamber library so it's like 25% of an orchestra (and thus voice multiplication is less concerning and the sound [and mistakes] is more detailed), CSS is halfsized and MSS in some ways covers all bases from soloist to symphonic orchestra. If you like the first half of the Last Walk CSS demo, or British romcoms lol, or the spitfire demos, SCS is good at that. Basically everything but the soaring emotional long-note legato stuff which you'll have a much easier time with using CSS/Vista/Soaring Strings, unless you want to go ham with the transposition trick and layering articulations in SCS (which can render great results and give out-of-character muscular performances, but takes a lot of work, some people even go under the hood to fix some stuff). MSS is a bit more down-the-middle, it's not trying to wow you with the supple and lugubrious "musical intent" you'd find in the CSS/Vista realm as much as _be scoring strings_ and do basically everything that entails, really well, offering you the tools to do those things easily (ostenatos, runs, detune and aleatorics, solo instruments for clarity and "leading", divisi for realistic ensemble playing and control), in a hall that sounds like scoring strings and an overall playing style that sounds like scoring strings. It does it well, and I'm like, 2 inches from buying it as the backbone to my SCS+NSS+Vista frankenstein.

Your other consideration might be Sonkinetic Orchestral Strings. Check them out, too, it's a new library and shares many of the functions of MSS at roughly half the price, sounds amazing and the playable runs with the slurred shorts are really excellent, as well as the patch-crossfading which I'm sure could be done with any library in a DAW with some creative routing + macros. On the subject of playable runs, SCS does those really well as well, but I think Sonokinetic probably did them better. They just don't have the flautandos and sul tastos and 8 types of shorts and stuff.


----------



## Russell Anderson

How do you folks tackle playable runs in MSS? Is there a combination of shorts and glissandos that does it for you, when you're trying to do something that doesn't fall under ostenatos/scales? Say, scale degrees 1-2-4-5 or 1-m3-5-m6? Or can the engines support that, like two-note ostenato segments, or arpeggios?


----------



## Casiquire

Russell Anderson said:


> How do you folks tackle playable runs in MSS? Is there a combination of shorts and glissandos that does it for you, when you're trying to do something that doesn't fall under ostenatos/scales? Say, scale degrees 1-2-4-5 or 1-m3-5-m6? Or can the engines support that, like two-note ostenato segments, or arpeggios?


In another thread i was posting about how well the bowed legato handles runs. Maybe a blend between that one and a standard legato, or if it's very fast and you need more blur I'd probably blend it with a port or something to give it that smear


----------



## Futchibon

muziksculp said:


> Still trying to make up my mind about MSS.


I highly recommend it. It has about half a dozen unique features not found in other string libraries. The somewhat 'vanilla' tone as described by some can be eqed out, but aso makes blending with a more 'characterful' library, such as Afflatus, Vista, Pacific etc, into a powerhouse combo.



Russell Anderson said:


> They actually sound remarkably similar to a lot of soundtracks I enjoy. I don’t own MSS, but… let’s just say milk and toast are highly fortifying foods.


You can't blame AB for misleading info: MSS sounds 'modern' and has a 'scoring' sound. So perhaps a little on the 'milk toast' side for some. But you already have some great libs to blend with it, and PAcific will be here soon....


----------



## Zanshin

How many times can I apologize for the milk toast comment!!!?111

(I stand by it)

If I didn't have SSI/SSP/SES I'd be a MSS owner I think. It feels like with MSS it's VSL level of quality, attention to detail, and it is feature full. I agree that it being a bit milk-toasty helps in it's blend-ability. It's one of the top workhorse string libraries IMO.


----------



## Russell Anderson

All I can really say is






milk and toast fed armies for centuries. And vinegar water... ...

Basically made up my mind after playing my libraries over the demos and a lot of weeks of lots of reviewing… But it’s done! Plenty of words to say about what I like about it but I’ll save it, you pretty much already know. Yay!

P.S. if anyone sees me commenting about wanting any other string libraries within the next 2 years, please ban me


----------



## muziksculp

Futchibon said:


> I highly recommend it. It has about half a dozen unique features not found in other string libraries. The somewhat 'vanilla' tone as described by some can be eqed out, but aso makes blending with a more 'characterful' library, such as Afflatus, Vista, Pacific etc, into a powerhouse combo.


I didn't want to read this, but Thanks for elevating my GAS pressure.  

Do I need more String libraries ? The answer is always, Yes.


----------



## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> How many times can I apologize for the milk toast comment!!!?111
> 
> (I stand by it)
> 
> If I didn't have SSI/SSP/SES I'd be a MSS owner I think. It feels like with MSS it's VSL level of quality, attention to detail, and it is feature full. I agree that it being a bit milk-toasty helps in it's blend-ability. It's one of the top workhorse string libraries IMO.


I prefer calling it "neutral" in tone because that's a more positive connotation lol though i agree it doesn't immediately make you say WOW. It makes it a fantastic glue between other libraries or instruments. Plus it won't draw attention to the fact that they're samples. Compared to say Vista which gives you an identical slide between two intervals every time, MSS just melts right into the music.


----------



## muziksculp

Q. I noticed that there is mention of turning OFF the Space Impulses of MSS , and any other processing applied in the library, is that done by disabling the Sends in the mixer, or is this something else ?


----------



## Duncan Krummel

muziksculp said:


> Q. I noticed that there is mention of turning OFF the Space Impulses of MSS , and any other processing applied in the library, is that done by disabling the Sends in the mixer, or is this something else ?


Yep, turn off the sends in the mixer. To the top right of the Mix mic channel is a little preset browser that’s easy to miss. By default it’s usually set to Smooth, I believe. You can quickly turn off all of the processing from the preset selection here.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I've been stuck on this for hours X_X I paused and resumed to try to breathe some life into my internet, but alas...


----------



## Futchibon

Russell Anderson said:


> P.S. if anyone sees me commenting about wanting any other string libraries within the next 2 years, please ban me


Was there a (s)Pacfic string library you had in mind? 😉


----------



## Futchibon

Zanshin said:


> How many times can I apologize for the milk toast comment!!!?111
> 
> (I stand by it)


Write that in a larger font size. Go on, I dare ya! 😛


Zanshin said:


> If I didn't have SSI/SSP/SES I'd be a MSS owner I think. It feels like with MSS it's VSL level of quality, attention to detail, and it is feature full. I agree that it being a bit milk-toasty helps in it's blend-ability. It's one of the top workhorse string libraries IMO.


Yeah I wouldn's use it on its own for some things, but while they say there's no perfect string library, I find MSS blended with Afflatus is pretty close!

Interesting about VSL. I'm fairly new to them and only have SSP and about 2/3rds of the BBO which I love, yet some criticize some VSL libs for sounding 'sterile'. Is that worse than 'milk toast'? 😉


Russell Anderson said:


> I've been stuck on this for hours X_X I paused and resumed to try to breathe some life into my internet, but alas...


Yeah shoot them a message, that happened to me with Genesis and they had to reset it on their end. I find their downloader very frustrating but the end result is well worth it.

EDIT: WHen you say paused and resumed, did you pause and then close the app, then reopen it and resume? 'Cause if you haven't done that try it first.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Futchibon said:


> WHen you say paused and resumed, did you pause and then close the app, then reopen it and resume? 'Cause if you haven't done that try it first.


Heeeey, we're onto part 4 now! Thanks! No, I didn't close the app, just paused and resumed. Let's hope I get to like 25% during this 12 hour shift tonight.

My wifi connection from back here is terrible :| I should drop this SSD off at a friend's place, download it there and go and pick it up tomorrow lol


----------



## Russell Anderson

T minus 24 hours to completion ayayaya 

Pretty much after I wake up tomorrow after getting home from work tonight I can start going through it. Woo!


----------



## Futchibon

Russell Anderson said:


> T minus 24 hours to completion ayayaya
> 
> Pretty much after I wake up tomorrow after getting home from work tonight I can start going through it. Woo!


Welcome to the club!


----------



## Russell Anderson

Futchibon said:


> Welcome to the club!


No

I have had to restart the app 5x and have missed like 20+ hours of download time

At 10pm it had 5.5 hours left
At 2am it had 5 hours left
At 4:30 am it now has 4 hours left after the third restart in the past 3 hours

I am going to wake back up in 4 hours and be greeted by 3 hours left and another frozen downloader I bet

I wanted to use the past 20 hours to try the library, I'll just have to make due with 1-2 hours before bed tonight after Christmas festivities and then we're back to another 65+ hour workweek


----------



## Futchibon

Russell Anderson said:


> No
> 
> I have had to restart the app 5x and have missed like 20+ hours of download time
> 
> At 10pm it had 5.5 hours left
> At 2am it had 5 hours left
> At 4:30 am it now has 4 hours left after the third restart in the past 3 hours
> 
> I am going to wake back up in 4 hours and be greeted by 3 hours left and another frozen downloader I bet
> 
> I wanted to use the past 20 hours to try the library, I'll just have to make due with 1-2 hours before bed tonight after Christmas festivities and then we're back to another 65+ hour workweek


Sorry to hear that. AB downloader is the worst I've ever experienced by far. But it's worth the wait.


----------



## bdev

Futchibon said:


> Sorry to hear that. AB downloader is the worst I've ever experienced by far. But it's worth the wait.


I am not sure that Audiobro Downloader is the cause as I downloaded Mss and later one week after Lass 3 at around 500 megabits/sec.


----------



## Noc

bdev said:


> I am not sure that Audiobro Downloader is the cause as I downloaded Mss and later one week after Lass 3 at around 500 megabits/sec.


The Audiobro downloader worked fine for me too. Download speeds were decent, and MSS took me only a few hours – I forget how long exactly, but not unreasonably long for a library that size. The only hiccup was when my download was blocked due to my VPN (really wish Audiobro would stop doing that; what does it matter if someone is using a VPN, so long as they paid for the library?), but a quick email & reply (and disconnecting the VPN) later, that was fixed.


----------



## Futchibon

Yeah it seems to work fine for some and a nightmare for others. I've downloaded 3 of their products and followed the instructions but I've had to constantly pause, close, reopen and restart the downloads. All other downloads from other devs haven't had any issues, except once in an early version of Sine although the later version seems fine.


----------



## Trevor Meier

Same experience. AudioBro downloader is a major weak point.


----------



## gst98

Mike said AB didn't want to pay for AWS so they set up their own download server, so I imagine that's because if you're near to the server it will be fine, but if you're on the other side of the world you're SOL.


----------



## muziksculp

The PULSE downloader is pretty good. They should look into using it.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

gst98 said:


> Mike said AB didn't want to pay for AWS so they set up their own download server, so I imagine that's because if you're near to the server it will be fine, but if you're on the other side of the world you're SOL.


That was his guess - not necessarily true. I think he retracted that later too?

I have 4 of their products and the downloaded has been smooth and fast every time. Worth the wait in any case.


----------



## novaburst

If I can remember I had 3 attempts on MSS but when it finally worked it was quite fast, 

In the UK


----------



## gst98

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That was his guess - not necessarily true. I think he retracted that later too?
> 
> I have 4 of their products and the downloaded has been smooth and fast every time. Worth the wait in any case.


hmm... don't recall him saying it was a guess, and seemed like he had spoken about it him. Probably retracted it because AB doesn't necessarily want people knowing that. 

Some people having fast downloads and others having very slow fits that explanation though. 100gb downloads from a big CDN should never take days to comeplete.


----------



## Russell Anderson

I should say again that my wifi sucks. Like sucks sucks. The internet is good, but my download speed is .5mb/sec. It should be >5mb/sec. So I’m losing 90% to a wifi-related bottleneck over here, having to restart the app randomly is icing on the cake. 

The download is done now and I’m knee deep in MSS atm


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

gst98 said:


> hmm... don't recall him saying it was a guess, and seemed like he had spoken about it him. Probably retracted it because AB doesn't necessarily want people knowing that.
> 
> Some people having fast downloads and others having very slow fits that explanation though. 100gb downloads from a big CDN should never take days to comeplete.



Seems like it was his guess and he retracted it based on his own feelings. Who knows though.



> The more I think about it, the less likely it seems they would actually host the downloads themselves. They would need to have enough capacity to handle Black Friday and major release dates, and that would be really expensive to set up and maintain ... but that large capacity would be totally wasted for the other 11 months of the year.
> 
> At least that's my guess, recognizing that I'm way out of my depth with you guys in the room.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Lilwing said:


> Wow, thank you so very much to you all for your help!
> I'm overwhelmed by all this kindness to help me get started, I didn't expect so much.
> Thank you for all the links and infos, I'm checking out all of this right now.
> It's amazing!
> All the videos sound really beautiful, and @Sounbed your work is awesome.
> 
> I'm glad to learn it in fact has all of the articulations I need.
> I'm very new to sample libraries. I have Berlin Woodwinds, Andea and Berlin Percussions for now.
> I think I would like MSS because it seems to have a very "filmic" kind of sound, without being too dark, or too boxy. Also having divisis seems amazing.
> 
> I'm also looking at Spitfire, Berlin and CSS, but even if I really love the Spitfire sound in SSS and SCS, they represent a lot of money if you want the two.
> The same for Berlin, + the VAT.
> CSS + CS2 sound really fantastic layered together, like in Anne-Kathrin Dern's video on YouTube.
> But I'm not so sure I really love the sound of CSS alone , I can't decide, I have trouble knowing it.
> At the same time, CSS's demos completely blew me away, I love them more than any demo I've heard.
> But MSS seems to really fit the kind of music I aim to be writing, plus you can I believe create whatever section size you want.
> I just fear it's a too big/advanced library compared to my current skills. But I rather would not want to invest in a starter kit, I would prefer to have a really advanced library already.


It was a bit overwhelming for me with my skillset when I got it, due to only using midi for about less than a year when I dove in. But that's how you should do it. Grab it, jump into the fire, and learn with a nice deep dive. I got a lot better, and through research in this forum and through YouTube videos I have slowly started to master it and understand both composition and midi finessing a lot more!

It's a masterclass of a library, IMO.


----------



## muziksculp

Russell Anderson said:


> The download is done now and I’m knee deep in MSS atm


Congratulations. 

Let us know your thoughts about MSS once you get acquainted with the library.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Everything's going great, though there are some weird... I'm restarting my current project because I'm getting hanging notes at the end of every legato phrase like clockwork (every time), and something weird has gone on with the RAM usage lol






This happened as soon as I started switching microphone outputs.

Also, my system can't find the stage samples, and I just batch resaved, so... I'm probably going to have to refer to a backup if I ever run into any problems. :| I should say, though, that I’ve not run into any problems. And the RAM/hanging notes problem was a one-off, that’s not been a problem either.

edited to say: so far so good mang


----------



## Futchibon

Interesting that Ark 5 has runs, shepherd tones and ostinato chords, perhaps as a response to MSS? I love it when one developer throws down the gauntlet and another repsonds, we're spoilt for choice in many ways.


muziksculp said:


> The PULSE downloader is pretty good. They should look into using it.


Yep, never had an issue with Pulse @pulsedownloader , always fast and reliable.


ALittleNightMusic said:


> Seems like it was his guess and he retracted it based on his own feelings. Who knows though.





> The more I think about it, the less likely it seems they would actually host the downloads themselves. They would need to have enough capacity to handle Black Friday and major release dates, and that would be really expensive to set up and maintain ... but that large capacity would be totally wasted for the other 11 months of the year.


Didn't the AB website crash for a day over BF?


Baronvonheadless said:


> It's a masterclass of a library, IMO.


+1


----------



## Russell Anderson

Casiquire said:


> In another thread i was posting about how well the bowed legato handles runs. Maybe a blend between that one and a standard legato, or if it's very fast and you need more blur I'd probably blend it with a port or something to give it that smear


actually turning transition speed all the way up and using bowed legato with the solo violin and violin sections layered, it sounds pretty darn good for runs. The "Trans Volume" knob becomes really useful here, too, and probably little adjustments to the Trans Speed also. Cool! This is even better than earlier today. Also I guess even though I knew about the release trigger button being there, and swearing I checked it, I guess I was wrong earlier, as I’m hearing plenty of release samples.

I'm actually just going to go ahead and delete my previous comment because it's too early for me to be giving any cursory thoughts apparently. But I still doubt I'm ever going to use the Intuition series. Is anyone using it? Or is it just a novelty to poke at on occasion thus far for most users?


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

My MSS Loyalty Price is $399. Does anyone know if this will change when the sale ends, or it stays the same ? 

Thanks.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> My MSS Loyalty Price is $399. Does anyone know if this will change when the sale ends, or it stays the same ?
> 
> Thanks.


I'd ask the team, maybe right in their forums. I expect the LASS upgrade price will go up, but i think the 399 crossgrade was valid even before the holidays


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I'd ask the team, maybe right in their forums. I expect the LASS upgrade price will go up, but i think the 399 crossgrade was valid even before the holidays


Yes, I think 399 was the loyalty price at all times. You are right.


----------



## dzilizzi

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I think 399 was the loyalty price at all times. You are right.


I'm not sure, only because MSS has been at the intro price since it came out. But the way it is written, it may be the permanent price.


----------



## muziksculp

I'm trying to carefully evaluate MSS, to decide if I will buy it.

Watching this YT videos showing how the various mic options sound in MSS. I noticed that all the Sends are disabled, so this is a good example of how the library sounds without the builtin IR reverb applied to the instruments. So far I like what I'm hearing.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> I'm trying to carefully evaluate MSS, to decide if I will buy it.
> 
> Watching this YT videos showing how the various mic options sound in MSS. I noticed that all the Sends are disabled, so this is a good example of how the library sounds without the builtin IR reverb applied to the instruments. So far I like what I'm hearing.



In case you're curious the example i sent you in pm a month or two ago was just stage and surround mics with all external processing off and not much else as far as processing.



Russell Anderson said:


> actually turning transition speed all the way up and using bowed legato with the solo violin and violin sections layered, it sounds pretty darn good for runs. The "Trans Volume" knob becomes really useful here, too, and probably little adjustments to the Trans Speed also. Cool! This is even better than earlier today. Also I guess even though I knew about the release trigger button being there, and swearing I checked it, I guess I was wrong earlier, as I’m hearing plenty of release samples.
> 
> I'm actually just going to go ahead and delete my previous comment because it's too early for me to be giving any cursory thoughts apparently. But I still doubt I'm ever going to use the Intuition series. Is anyone using it? Or is it just a novelty to poke at on occasion thus far for most users?


Are you up and running for good? I've had trouble batch resaving both the main library and the extended legato, three times now. I gave up trying to resave at all. I've since saved over all the original instrument files anyway, I'm hoping that's good enough.

This isn't the only time I've had issues with batch resave. I'm starting to question...again...why everyone in this forum is so insistent on it. I've never experienced an issue where batch resave would've fixed the problem; I've experienced issues many times trying to execute it


----------



## muziksculp

@Casiquire ,

Yes, I recall that. Thanks for the feedback. 

I think you also have the expanded MSS Legato library, for the sord., Tasto, Pont. articulations, I was checking it out, and these sound very nice. How useful do you find this expansion library of MSS ?

Thanks.


----------



## jcrosby

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> My MSS Loyalty Price is $399. Does anyone know if this will change when the sale ends, or it stays the same ?
> 
> Thanks.


I emailed them about the loyalty price before buying MSS and they confirmed it will probably go back to 499 after the sale.

_"We do keep a cross grade / loyalty price going for MSS — but the price is currently at its lowest. All the upgrade/crossgrade paths will continue to exist, but pricing may go up once the sale ends."_


----------



## muziksculp

When enabling MSS Legato mode, does that automatically allow for polyphonic legato playing, in addition to monophonic playing ?


----------



## Trevor Meier

muziksculp said:


> When enabling MSS Legato mode, does that automatically allow for polyphonic legato playing, in addition to monophonic playing ?


Poly or mono legato is based on the auto-divisi switch, which is also mapped to CC30 I believe.


----------



## Trevor Meier

muziksculp said:


> @Casiquire ,
> 
> Yes, I recall that. Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> I think you also have the expanded MSS Legato library, for the sord., Tasto, Pont. articulations, I was checking it out, and these sound very nice. How useful do you find this expansion library of MSS ?
> 
> Thanks.


I find the expanded legatos exceptional when I need that tone. It’s a PITA that they can’t be loaded as a multi with the main library, but a fix for that is coming in the new year. For now they need their own dedicated Kontakt instance


----------



## muziksculp

@Trevor Meier ,

Thank You for the feedback.

I'm tempted to go for both MSS and the Expanded Legato library. I agree with you, the Expnaded legatos sound really nice, and have they add a nice flavor and emotion when needed. 

It would be nice if they were integrated into the Main MSS library, LASS 3 has the Sordino integrated. Which is very handy, instead of a separate library. I guess they will be doing something of this nature in the next update of MSS. next year. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

OK, I finally purchased the MSS + Expanded Legato Upgrade bundle. for *$549*.


----------



## Trevor Meier

muziksculp said:


> @Trevor Meier ,
> 
> Thank You for the feedback.
> 
> I'm tempted to go for both MSS and the Expanded Legato library. I agree with you, the Expnaded legatos sound really nice, and have they add a nice flavor and emotion when needed.
> 
> It would be nice if they were integrated into the Main MSS library, LASS 3 has the Sordino integrated. Which is very handy, instead of a separate library. I guess they will be doing something of this nature in the next update of MSS. next year.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Yes, the limitation is because they’ve hit the Kontakt limit for number of samples. But a solution is coming. They’re very responsive to issues like this - they’re a small developer so updates take time, but user feedback is all over every update. And it’s been remarkably bug-free for me, more than any other recent library purchase. A feat given how complex of a library it is.


----------



## Trevor Meier

muziksculp said:


> OK, I finally purchased the MSS + Expanded Legato Upgrade. for *$549*.


Welcome to the club!! We can hang out here while we wait for Abbey Road Modular 👍😂


----------



## muziksculp

Trevor Meier said:


> Welcome to the club!! We can hang out here while we wait for Abbey Road Modular 👍😂


AR1 Modular is my main focus for 2022.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> @Casiquire ,
> 
> Yes, I recall that. Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> I think you also have the expanded MSS Legato library, for the sord., Tasto, Pont. articulations, I was checking it out, and these sound very nice. How useful do you find this expansion library of MSS ?
> 
> Thanks.


I love it, i switch to the sul tasto from time to time. Comparing to something like Berlin Strings, I'm noticing that the soft notes in MSS are already really good but adding that tasto really nails the low end of dynamics. I think the longs (with the exception of the accented notes or marcato) shine in lower dynamics and the tasto is like a really nice expansion of that. The vibrato especially stands out because of how low the dynamic is.

The Sordino is great but different from what you hear out of most sordino libraries. I haven't heard another one like it. Contrary to what i said about the tasto, the sordino is much lower on the vibrato than most other libraries i have and it gives an interesting, clean spin on sordinos. It's the most reserved sordino i have heard in a library but it is a really useful sound, especially since sordino by its very nature sounds veiled and reserved. They're played to take full advantage of that veiled sound and studio-playing vibe.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> OK, I finally purchased the MSS + Expanded Legato Upgrade bundle. for *$549*.


As the prophecy foretold, the day has arrived!! You probably won't find smoother playing out there. Enjoy!


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> As the prophecy foretold, the day has arrived!! You probably won't find smoother playing out there. Enjoy!


@Casiquire Thanks.

I spent a very long time evaluating, thinking, and re-evaluating MSS, basically since it was released, , not sure why, but listening to the library demos, and videos today, gave me enough GAS to finally buy the full Bundle.

I initially added MSS, and Expansion separately, to the cart, which would have costed $50 more than the Bundle, then I saw the Bundle, so deleted them, and added the bundle. I'm glad I didn't rush checking out. It was easy to miss the Bundle Option.

So, I'm very happy I finally purchased the bundle.

Actually, I was thinking that the neutral timbre of MSS, which to my ears sounds more realistic, and less hyped, is what I think I like about this library. It just sounds very natural, of course one can layer it if they want to add more character, but that doesn't always imho translate to more realism, it's just a new sonic color if that is what is desired.

Also having LASS 3 that works in a similar GUI system to MSS, and the Expanded library is very cool. i.e.LASS 3 can add a lot of flavor to MSS if that is needed, including the LASS 3 Sordino, which I like a lot. So, ample features, and options having these AudioBro Strings to work with.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> @Casiquire Thanks.
> 
> I spent the a very long time evaluating, thinking, and re-evaluating MSS, basically since it was released, , not sure why, but listening to the library demos, and videos today, gave me enough GAS to finally buy the full Bundle.
> 
> I initially added MSS, and Expansion separately, to the cart, which would have costed $50 more than the Bundle, then I saw the Bundle, so deleted them, and added the bundle. I'm glad I didn't rush checking out. It was easy to miss the Bundle Option.
> 
> So, I'm very happy I finally purchased the bundle.
> 
> Actually, I was thinking that the neutral timbre of MSS, which to my ears sounds more realistic, and less hyped, is what I think I like about this library. It just sounds very natural, of course one can layer it if they want to add more character, but that doesn't always imho translate to more realism, it's just a new sonic color if that is what is desired.
> 
> Also having LASS 3 that works in a similar GUI system to MSS, and the Expanded library is a very cool. i.e.LASS 3 can add a lot of flavor to MSS if that is needed, including the LASS 3 Sordino, which I like a lot. So, ample features, and options having these AudioBro Strings to work with.


I think layering it is huge. I like the sound of it on its own especially in context where it just fits into everything, but layering it to add fullness and richness, or to smooth out a more wild library, is useful too.

I might be the only person bothered by this, but the basses load up with a different dynamic range than the rest of the library. Play around on your own, but if you think something in the low end sounds a little off, maybe kind of boxy, check that dynamic range. I don't always feel that way but when i do, matching the bass dynamic range with the rest of the library fixes it.

Other than that, this library gives you more control than anything else on the market that's not modeled.


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> I might be the only person bothered by this, but the basses load up with a different dynamic range than the rest of the library. Play around on your own, but if you think something in the low end sounds a little off, maybe kind of boxy, check that dynamic range. I don't always feel that way but when i do, matching the bass dynamic range with the rest of the library fixes it.


Only semi-related, but your mention of the basses reminds me of one of the only issues I have with MSS: the bass pizzicatos. They sound very washed out to me, is if someone put a reverb on and then turned the dry signal way down. Compare that to the cello pizzicatos, note for note, which sound far more crisp. I haven’t noticed anyone else comment on this; does anyone else feel the same way? Or is this how bass pizzicatos are actually supposed to sound, and the much sharper bass pizz. in LASS (which I got used to before switching to MSS) is actually an aberration?

Other than that, I did want to mention again how great MSS’s tone is. It does feel a _little_ too neutral and flat at times, especially in parts with lots of exposed strings, but as you’ve said, it just kinda fits with everything, no matter what other libraries are used. If only the molto vib. feature were actually a bit more molto on the vib., then it would be perfect IMO. But of course, that’s trivial to fix with layering.


----------



## Casiquire

Noc said:


> Only semi-related, but your mention of the basses reminds me of one of the only issues I have with MSS: the bass pizzicatos. They sound very washed out to me, is if someone put a reverb on and then turned the dry signal way down. Compare that to the cello pizzicatos, note for note, which sound far more crisp. I haven’t noticed anyone else comment on this; does anyone else feel the same way? Or is this how bass pizzicatos are actually supposed to sound, and the much sharper bass pizz. in LASS (which I got used to before switching to MSS) is actually an aberration?
> 
> Other than that, I did want to mention again how great MSS’s tone is. It does feel a _little_ too neutral and flat at times, especially in parts with lots of exposed strings, but as you’ve said, it just kinda fits with everything, no matter what other libraries are used. If only the molto vib. feature were actually a bit more molto on the vib., then it would be perfect IMO. But of course, that’s trivial to fix with layering.


I agree, a true molto would make a lot of libraries obsolete


----------



## muziksculp

Noc said:


> If only the molto vib. feature were actually a bit more molto on the vib., then it would be perfect IMO. But of course, that’s trivial to fix with layering.


What would be a library that has very audible, and well performed Molto Vibrato, especially for the Violins ? Maybe CSS ? 

I had a similar complaint about OT Berlin Symphonic Strings Violins, which are symphonic sized sections, but lack Molto Vibrato. Which is sad, since they sound so good, and could be more expressive/passoionate sounding if they only could do Molto Vibrato.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> What would be a library that has very audible, and well performed Molto Vibrato, especially for the Violins ? Maybe CSS ?
> 
> I had a similar complaint about OT Berlin Symphonic Strings Violins, which are symphonic sized sections, but lack Molto Vibrato. Which is sad, since they sound so good, and could be more expressive/passoionate sounding if they only could do Molto Vibrato.


The original Berlin Strings has some fantastic molto vibrato imo


----------



## Russell Anderson

Personally I think the molto is actually good, it’s the connectivity of the notes that prevents you from doing the soaring/sweeping thing. It wants to be understated. Any of Vista, CSS, Soaring Strings, SCS or NSS would be good. Or Berlin. Vista and SS would do the soaring thing.


----------



## muziksculp

Russell Anderson said:


> Personally I think the molto is actually good, it’s the connectivity of the notes that prevents you from doing the soaring/sweeping thing. It wants to be understated.


What would the connectivity of the notes have to do with playing Molto Vibrato, I don't see the connection.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> The original Berlin Strings has some fantastic molto vibrato imo


Do you have them ?


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Do you have them ?


Yes!


----------



## Noeticus

muziksculp said:


> OK, I finally purchased the MSS + Expanded Legato Upgrade bundle. for *$549*.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! I knew it would happen!


----------



## Zanshin

Noeticus said:


> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! I knew it would happen!


I think this is one of the last signs of the apocalypse.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Andrew of AudioBro posted this nice tip on my post at their forum today :

*Quote :
*
" _Tip: try layering LASS 3's Violins B (in the Split Ensembles Folder) with MSS... sounds beautiful! "_

So, If you have LASS 3 and MSS, you might want to give this a try.


----------



## Russell Anderson

muziksculp said:


> What would the connectivity of the notes have to do with playing Molto Vibrato, I don't see the connection.





muziksculp said:


> more expressive/passoionate sounding


----------



## muziksculp

The amount, and Style of Vibrato is also very much related to how expressive, and passionate strings sound, be it solo or section. Having more control over vibrato amount, and speed is one of the important details that I find missing in many traditionally sampled libraries, on the other hand, modeled, or hybrid (sampled + Modeled) strings offer more control over vibrato, which is a more accurate emulation of how strings are played.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Ah, yeah. No disagreements here. There are a lot of things that go into more impassioned phrasing… it’s a lot to ask for when programming a library that wasn’t necessarily designed around that playing style, or using a modelled one. MSS certainly isn’t at modelled levels of vibrato control, though the intuition series seems like it’s getting there. 

The playability of the intuition series… hasn’t sunk in with me yet, mostly because of the velocity responsiveness. There’s probably a curve I can adjust or something. Also a velocity link to connectivity (which might also be there)


----------



## Trevor Meier

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Andrew of AudioBro posted this nice tip on my post at their forum today :
> 
> *Quote :*
> 
> " _Tip: try layering LASS 3's Violins B (in the Split Ensembles Folder) with MSS... sounds beautiful! "_
> 
> So, If you have LASS 3 and MSS, you might want to give this a try.


I love the sound of LASS, and having them in the same interface is very attractive workflow-wise. For me the upgrade price is much too steep having already bought in to MSS + expanded legatos (+ Genesis). LASS feels more like an expansion for MSS than an independent library, so as an existing owner I think it’s overpriced (IMO).


----------



## Casiquire

Trevor Meier said:


> I love the sound of LASS, and having them in the same interface is very attractive workflow-wise. For me the upgrade price is much too steep having already bought in to MSS + expanded legatos (+ Genesis). LASS feels more like an expansion for MSS than an independent library, so as an existing owner I think it’s overpriced (IMO).


I don't really agree. LASS is its own library with its own sound and niche and still offers more than most other full string libraries


----------



## muziksculp

For me upgrading to LASS 3 at $99. was a no brainer, and I don't think that it's a high price for all the new improvements you get in LASS 3. Yes, the samples are the same, but the functionality is totally different, and highly improved. Worth every penny.


----------



## Evans

Trevor Meier said:


> For me the upgrade price is much too steep having already bought in to MSS + expanded legatos (+ Genesis)


I was hoping for an Audiobro loyalty discount (_without _having owned LASS 2.5) like we saw with MSS. I have MSS (full), Genesis, and MSB.

That said, of course Audiobro can offer what they want. I'm just saying that a more generalized loyalty discount would probably have enticed me, but $399 is a bit much. Gotta draw the line somewhere.


----------



## Casiquire

Evans said:


> I was hoping for an Audiobro loyalty discount (_without _having owned LASS 2.5) like we saw with MSS. I have MSS (full), Genesis, and MSB.
> 
> That said, of course Audiobro can offer what they want. I'm just saying that a more generalized loyalty discount would probably have enticed me, but $399 is a bit much. Gotta draw the line somewhere.


Out of curiosity, please feel free to share any examples of MSS+MSB. I'm curious how they sound together in the same room. Genesis too but I've found it's easier to blend outside choirs into a mix than orchestral instruments, i assume because our ears are used to choirs being recorded separately or standing in strange arrangements or in a separate part of the room from the orchestra, etc. And it's hard enough to find a lot of examples of MSB in practice, let alone MSB+MSS


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Casiquire said:


> And it's hard enough to find a lot of examples of MSB in practice, let alone MSB+MSS


Not sure if you ever saw a thread I started with this in mind, but I included stems so you could get a feel for putting them in place yourself:






Combining MSS, MSB, and Genesis - Stems Included


Hey all, Thought I'd put this in its own post for its own discussion. I put together a track using MSS, MSB, and Genesis to showcase how the libraries interact with each other (+ a bit of percussion from HWP non-opus): I also thought it would be interesting, and potentially useful, if...




vi-control.net


----------



## Casiquire

Duncan Krummel said:


> Not sure if you ever saw a thread I started with this in mind, but I included stems so you could get a feel for putting them in place yourself:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Combining MSS, MSB, and Genesis - Stems Included
> 
> 
> Hey all, Thought I'd put this in its own post for its own discussion. I put together a track using MSS, MSB, and Genesis to showcase how the libraries interact with each other (+ a bit of percussion from HWP non-opus): I also thought it would be interesting, and potentially useful, if...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Oh wow, perfect! Thanks man, Hero Mode activated


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I'm downloading MSS via the AB downloader, but It is stuck at part 24/37 , I tried pausing and continuing the download, but that didn't help. What do you recommend I do to get it continue the download ? 

And if I stop the Install, would I be able to pick up from that point to continue downloading the remaining parts 25-37. which is around 40 GB not installed yet. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Futchibon

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm downloading MSS via the AB downloader, but It is stuck at part 24/37 , I tried pausing and continuing the download, but that didn't help. What do you recommend I do to get it continue the download ?
> 
> And if I stop the Install, would I be able to pick up from that point to continue downloading the remaining parts 25-37. which is around 40 GB not installed yet.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


Don't stop the download, pause it then close the app and open it again. Hopefully that will work.


----------



## muziksculp

Futchibon said:


> Don't stop the download, pause it then close the app and open it again. Hopefully that will work.


Thanks, yes that did it, got the same instructions from AB Forum Support. Downloads moving forward now.


----------



## muziksculp

OK, continued the install of MSS, and when I thought all was done, I get (Install Failed) message.

Now I need to request a fresh full install from AudioBro. I really wish they move to PULSE downloader, this is not fun.

And why do I need to request a new download for the library I purchased, and I have a license via Native Access ? Their downloader already wasted a lot of my time, not being reliable to download their library, and now I have to wait for them to reset my download for the library that failed to download. Not good. Sorry they need to change to a better download system. I highly recommend they move to the PULSE downloader.

I'm still waiting for a full library download reset form AB. and there is no guarantee the next full download will be successful. Not happy about this


----------



## Futchibon

muziksculp said:


> I'm still waiting for a full library download reset form AB. and there is no guarantee the next full download will be successful. No happy about this


Yeah their downloader sux, I had to request a new download for 1 of the libraries and the other 2 paused all the time. On the plus side they're responisve to support emails and it's worth it in the end!


----------



## muziksculp

Futchibon said:


> Yeah their downloader sux, I had to request a new download for 1 of the libraries and the other 2 paused all the time. On the plus side they're responisve to support emails and it's worth it in the end!


How long did it take them to reset the download ? 

I reached them via PM on their forum, so far no reply for an hour now.


----------



## muziksculp

While I wait for them to reset the MSS download, I was able to successfully download the MSS Expanded Sord, Sul Tasto, Sul Pont. Library, so hopefully I will have no issues the next time I begin downloading MSS, But, I'm still waiting for a reset from AB, so I can begin the full download.


----------



## Noc

muziksculp said:


> How long did it take them to reset the download ?
> 
> I reached them via PM on their forum, so far no reply for an hour now.


When my account was disabled in the downloader (due to changing VPN servers mid-download – stupid thing to do, I knew better but forgot in the moment), I sent them an email at [email protected] and they unblocked my account just a few minutes later, which seems to be par for the course. I do recommend sending an email rather than a PM; I don’t know how often they check those, whereas they always respond to emails pretty promptly.


----------



## Futchibon

muziksculp said:


> How long did it take them to reset the download ?
> 
> I reached them via PM on their forum, so far no reply for an hour now.


I emailed them, [email protected], took a few hours but I think it was after hours so it was good service.


----------



## muziksculp

Noc said:


> When my account was disabled in the downloader (due to changing VPN servers mid-download – stupid thing to do, I knew better but forgot in the moment), I sent then an email at [email protected] and they unblocked my account just a few minutes later, which seems to be par for the course. I do recommend sending an email rather than a PM; I don’t know how often they check those, whereas they always respond to emails pretty promptly.


Thanks, that's very helpful.  

I didn't know that. I will use the email you used to reach them.


----------



## muziksculp

Futchibon said:


> I emailed them, [email protected], took a few hours but I think it was after hours so it was good service.


Thanks. 

e-mailed them.


----------



## muziksculp

I also think that dealing with issues like this, with developers during the Holidays requires that we be patient. Maybe it's better not to install libraries during the holidays


----------



## Noc

muziksculp said:


> I also think that dealing with issues like this, with developers during the Holidays requires that we be patient. Maybe it's better not to install libraries during the holidays


And yet the holidays is precisely when everything goes on sale and library purchases are at their highest. CONSPIRACY?


----------



## muziksculp

Noc said:


> And yet the holidays is precisely when everything goes on sale and library purchases are at their highest. CONSPIRACY?


That's right.


----------



## muziksculp

Got the reset from AB, so trying to download MSS once again, hopefully all goes well this time around


----------



## Zedcars

Holidays are also exactly when many people who have day jobs finally get time to download and play with their new toys!


----------



## muziksculp

Zedcars said:


> Holidays are also exactly when many people who have day jobs finally get time to download and play with their new toys!


That's true, that's why I was thinking that installing software, libraries, ..etc. during the holidays can be a bit of a pain if all doesn't go well with something, especially installing, since support staff might be enjoying their new toys


----------



## muziksculp

Q. Could not having added a Windows Security (Virus Defender) exception for a Drive interrupt downloads ?


----------



## muziksculp

Finally ! Success


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> Finally ! Success


I think it should say:

“_Congratulations, you’ve successfully downloaded yet another string library. You can now open a new thread on VI-C asking which string library you should buy next which would best compliment your other 20 string libraries. We all know the more string libraries you own, the more respect you will earn amongst your fellow composers and the more complete you will feel as a human being._”


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

How are folks utilizing the pre-recorded ostinatos / scales usually? I think there was some release challenges in the initial version, but in true AB fashion, they've not only fixed it but have added some advanced controls regarding those as well (these guys are killer developers!).


MSS Ostinatos - I find are great if you need somewhat robotic arpeggios.

View attachment MSSOstinatos.mp3


MSS Legato - Works well if you want a little feeling to your arpeggios / are leaving things unquantized.

View attachment MSSLegato.mp3


BSS Pattern Legato - Interesting to hear how these compare to Berlin Symphonic String's pattern legato which was supposedly made specifically for these types of patterns. Sounds a bit washed out in places compared to MSS.

View attachment BSSPattern.mp3


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> How are folks utilizing the pre-recorded ostinatos / scales usually? I think there was some release challenges in the initial version, but in true AB fashion, they've not only fixed it but have added some advanced controls regarding those as well (these guys are killer developers!).
> 
> 
> MSS Ostinatos - I find are great if you need somewhat robotic arpeggios.
> 
> View attachment MSSOstinatos.mp3
> 
> 
> MSS Legato - Works well if you want a little feeling to your arpeggios / are leaving things unquantized.
> 
> View attachment MSSLegato.mp3
> 
> 
> BSS Pattern Legato - Interesting to hear how these compare to Berlin Symphonic String's pattern legato which was supposedly made specifically for these types of patterns. Sounds a bit washed out in places compared to MSS.
> 
> View attachment BSSPattern.mp3


The BSS ones do sound a little washed out, but also a little disconnected. I've never used strings as smooth as MSS. Those examples both sound really good, though i might play with articulations, dynamics, and legato speeds if i were to use the legato patch to make sure I'm not hearing a machine gun effect



muziksculp said:


> Finally ! Success


Had a chance to take it out for a spin yet?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> The BSS ones do sound a little washed out, but also a little disconnected.


Yeah - could be my programming but OT doesn’t have proper manuals for any of their libraries anyway in terms of the right approach to use them. It’s all trial and error. MSS on the other hand comes with a great manual with specific programming and usage instructions.


----------



## wilifordmusic

Zedcars said:


> I think it should say:
> 
> “_Congratulations, you’ve successfully downloaded yet another string library. You can now open a new thread on VI-C asking which string library you should buy next which would best compliment your other 20 string libraries. We all know the more string libraries you own, the more respect you will earn amongst your fellow composers and the more complete you will feel as a human being._”


addendum: It will also make you smarter, more creative, and desirable to those you desire.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Had a chance to take it out for a spin yet?


Not yet, I haven't even authorized them via Native Access. But will get to them in the next few days. Just dealing with a pounding headache from a toothache since yesterday, seeing the dentist tomorrow. 

I'm enjoying the forum to get my mind off the pain


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> Not yet, I haven't even authorized them via Native Access. But will get to them in the next few days. Just dealing with a pounding headache from a toothache since yesterday, seeing the dentist tomorrow.
> 
> I'm enjoying the forum to get my mind off the pain


Sorry to hear that. It’s one of the worst pains. I hope they sort you out.

I wonder if your dentist will try having a chat while you have your mouth wide open? Mine always does.

She’s like “how’s your week been?”

Me: “Aah aah aah aah aah aaah!”

Her: “Oh really? Are you up to much this weekend?”

Me: “Aah aah aah aaah! Ooh?”

Her: “No, not much.”


----------



## muziksculp

OK, got my root canal done today, cost $1800. I could have bought many strings libraries with that budget, but it was invested on one tooth.  and it wasn't a fun experience.

I look forward to finally test, and use MSS, and the Expansion library very soon. I also have LASS 3 which I haven't spent much time with.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

And ... To top it off, I had vocal cords surgery back in July to remove part of my vocal cords that had cancerous cells. 

I visited the doctor around mid October, and after examining my vocal cords, he ordered that I do not talk until I see him again on Jan 20th, so the vocal cords don't move, and heal properly. 

So, I have been mute since Mid Oct. , using my iPhone with a text to voice app to communicate, plus the voice of the phone app is of a woman. It has been one crazy experience for me, not talking for over two months now, and will be three months by the time I see the Doctor, hopefully he will allow me to talk once again. Some people asked me, can you hear ? 

Life is full of ups and downs, but I'm riding the wave. 

I wish you all a Happy, and Healthy 2022. 😎🧡

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## mussnig

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> And ... To top it off, I had vocal cords surgery back in July to remove part of my vocal cords that had cancerous cells.
> 
> I visited the doctor around mid October, and after examining my vocal cords, he ordered that I do not talk until I see him again on Jan 20th, so the vocal cords don't move, and heal properly.
> 
> So, I have been mute since Mid Oct. , using my iPhone with a text to voice app to communicate, plus the voice of the phone app is of a woman. It has been one crazy experience for me, not talking for over two months now, and will be three months by the time I see the Doctor, hopefully he will allow me to talk once again. Some people asked me, can you hear ?
> 
> Life is full of ups and downs, but I'm riding the wave.
> 
> I wish you all a Happy, and Healthy 2022. 😎🧡
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Sorry to hear that! I really hope that everything will turn out well for you!


----------



## muziksculp

mussnig said:


> Sorry to hear that! I really hope that everything will turn out well for you!


Thanks


----------



## Noeticus

Best Wishes, and a Happy New Year to Muziksculp!


----------



## muziksculp

Noeticus said:


> Best Wishes, and a Happy New Year to Muziksculp!


Thanks, and same to you @Noeticus


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> And ... To top it off, I had vocal cords surgery back in July to remove part of my vocal cords that had cancerous cells.
> 
> I visited the doctor around mid October, and after examining my vocal cords, he ordered that I do not talk until I see him again on Jan 20th, so the vocal cords don't move, and heal properly.
> 
> So, I have been mute since Mid Oct. , using my iPhone with a text to voice app to communicate, plus the voice of the phone app is of a woman. It has been one crazy experience for me, not talking for over two months now, and will be three months by the time I see the Doctor, hopefully he will allow me to talk once again. Some people asked me, can you hear ?
> 
> Life is full of ups and downs, but I'm riding the wave.
> 
> I wish you all a Happy, and Healthy 2022. 😎🧡
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I'm so sorry to read that but I'm glad you seem to have a handle on it! I hope they give you good news next month


----------



## Zedcars

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> And ... To top it off, I had vocal cords surgery back in July to remove part of my vocal cords that had cancerous cells.
> 
> I visited the doctor around mid October, and after examining my vocal cords, he ordered that I do not talk until I see him again on Jan 20th, so the vocal cords don't move, and heal properly.
> 
> So, I have been mute since Mid Oct. , using my iPhone with a text to voice app to communicate, plus the voice of the phone app is of a woman. It has been one crazy experience for me, not talking for over two months now, and will be three months by the time I see the Doctor, hopefully he will allow me to talk once again. Some people asked me, can you hear ?
> 
> Life is full of ups and downs, but I'm riding the wave.
> 
> I wish you all a Happy, and Healthy 2022. 😎🧡
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Wow, I guess none of us really know what’s on on the other side of the avatar and what troubles people are going through.

Sounds like you have a ton of crap on your plate! Wishing you the very best treatment and a speedy recovery going into 2022 good fellow. 🍻


----------



## Noeticus

🍻 🍺 🍻 🍺 🍻 🍻 🍻 🍻 🍺 🍺 🍺

Thanks to @Zedcars I now know you can drink for free on VI-Control.


----------



## Noeticus

🍷 🍷 🍷 🍷 🍷 🍷 🍷 🍷 🍷 🍷

Line em up!


----------



## dzilizzi

muziksculp said:


> OK, got my root canal done today, cost $1800. I could have bought many strings libraries with that budget, but it was invested on one tooth.  and it wasn't a fun experience.
> 
> I look forward to finally test, and use MSS, and the Expansion library very soon. I also have LASS 3 which I haven't spent much time with.


Sorry to hear you had to have a root canal. Those aren't fun. And so expensive.


----------



## kevinh

dzilizzi said:


> Sorry to hear you had to have a root canal. Those aren't fun. And so expensive.


At least it wasn’t an inverted canal…..I’ll be here all night haha


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> OK, got my root canal done today, cost $1800. I could have bought many strings libraries with that budget, but it was invested on one tooth.  and it wasn't a fun experience


Geez, how could you go for the root canal over more string libraries. I mean, did your tooth hurt that much? You know those string libraries aren’t going to buy themselves! 

Seriously, I hope your mouth is feeling better now that you have several string libraries worth of work on it!


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> Geez, how could you go for the root canal over more string libraries. I mean, did your tooth hurt that much? You know those string libraries aren’t going to buy themselves!


LOL... I was feeling more pain when I was paying for the root canal with my Credit Card. 

Kidding aside, I'm glad it's over, just mild pain now. should be gone in the next 48 hrs. I'm just anxious, and looking forward to be able to talk again. It has been very difficult to stay mute for 2 months, and waiting for the third one to pass.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

muziksculp said:


> That's right.


Coincidentally, Noc has disappeared and hasn’t been heard from since.


----------



## muziksculp

Baronvonheadless said:


> Coincidentally, Noc has disappeared and hasn’t been heard from since.


Maybe UFO Abduction ?


----------



## Noc

Baronvonheadless said:


> Coincidentally, Noc has disappeared and hasn’t been heard from since.


Just chillin’ with my libraries here in my cardboard box where I live after going bankrupt from buying all my libraries


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## alcorey

muziksculp said:


>


Pretty! A lot to absorb


----------



## muziksculp

alcorey said:


> Pretty! A lot to absorb


Yup. I have a lot of library diving to deal with ahead of me. I got a good collection of libraries during BF, and this month. It's going to take some time to digest all the new stuff, no more libraries for me. 

Until AR-1 Modular begins releasing.


----------



## kevinh

muziksculp said:


> no more libraries for me


I’ve said this so many times that even my cat rolls his eyes now haha


----------



## clonewar

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> And ... To top it off, I had vocal cords surgery back in July to remove part of my vocal cords that had cancerous cells.
> 
> I visited the doctor around mid October, and after examining my vocal cords, he ordered that I do not talk until I see him again on Jan 20th, so the vocal cords don't move, and heal properly.
> 
> So, I have been mute since Mid Oct. , using my iPhone with a text to voice app to communicate, plus the voice of the phone app is of a woman. It has been one crazy experience for me, not talking for over two months now, and will be three months by the time I see the Doctor, hopefully he will allow me to talk once again. Some people asked me, can you hear ?
> 
> Life is full of ups and downs, but I'm riding the wave.
> 
> I wish you all a Happy, and Healthy 2022. 😎🧡
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Wow man, wishing you a full recovery and a happy and healthy 2022!


----------



## molemac

muziksculp said:


> LOL... I was feeling more pain when I was paying for the root canal with my Credit Card.
> 
> Kidding aside, I'm glad it's over, just mild pain now. should be gone in the next 48 hrs. I'm just anxious, and looking forward to be able to talk again. It has been very difficult to stay mute for 2 months, and waiting for the third one to pass.


Sorry to hear about your issues . Just be careful when you try out Mss ostinatos for the first time you might be tempted to yell out loud


----------



## Noeticus

I really like MSS. 

The legato controls are very, very nice indeed!


----------



## soulofsound

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> And ... To top it off, I had vocal cords surgery back in July to remove part of my vocal cords that had cancerous cells.
> 
> I visited the doctor around mid October, and after examining my vocal cords, he ordered that I do not talk until I see him again on Jan 20th, so the vocal cords don't move, and heal properly.
> 
> So, I have been mute since Mid Oct. , using my iPhone with a text to voice app to communicate, plus the voice of the phone app is of a woman. It has been one crazy experience for me, not talking for over two months now, and will be three months by the time I see the Doctor, hopefully he will allow me to talk once again. Some people asked me, can you hear ?
> 
> Life is full of ups and downs, but I'm riding the wave.
> 
> I wish you all a Happy, and Healthy 2022. 😎🧡
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I hope your voice gets welll soon, mate.


----------



## Lilwing

@muziksculp I hope you are doing better now, what a terrible year for you!
I wish you a very quick healing process and a I hope 2021 will be free from pain for you.

Happy new year to all!
And thank you everyone, thanks to your help I finally decided to buy MSS. I think the sound suits me well and it's a very complete library that will get me running for several years probably before I need to buy a new one.
@Russell Anderson I think the mockups you posted actually soled me on it. They are amazing!
Also I'm very amazed at how the person managed to make CSS so bright.


----------



## muziksculp

Lilwing said:


> @muziksculp I hope you are doing better now, what a terrible year for you!
> I wish you a very quick healing process and a I hope 2021 will be free from pain for you.


Hi @Lilwing 

Thank you so much for your kind words, and get well wishes. 2021 has been a very difficult year for me, hopefully 2022 will be a much better year. 

I'm doing much better, I started to talk just three days ago, after being mute for two and a half months. I visit my Doctor again on the 20th, for an exam, so hopefully I'm able to continue talking, and continue to move forward with my musical ambitions, and enjoy my daily life. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

soulofsound said:


> I hope your voice gets welll soon, mate.


@soulofsound ,

Thanks You So Much. I appreciate it.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

I visited my Doctor this morning, and had my Vocal Cords exam, six months after my surgery, and I'm very happy that the results are very good, healing is going very well, and every thing looks normal.

My Vocal Cords need to continue the healing process. At least I'm able to talk now, after two and half months of being mute, but I still need to limit the amount of talking, as to not stress my vocal cords.

This has been a big relief for me, both psychologically, and physically, since I can talk now, and not bother using a phone app. to communicate, and knowing that all is going well.

Thank You Very Much for all your get well wishes here on VI-Control. I wish you all very good health, success, and the enjoyment of the amazing world of Music.

🧡 & Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## doctoremmet

Lovely to hear that Tarek! ❤️


----------



## muziksculp

doctoremmet said:


> Lovely to hear that Tarek! ❤️


Thank You So Much Temme. 🧡


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I visited my Doctor this morning, and had my Vocal Cords exam, six months after my surgery, and I'm very happy that the results are very good, healing is going very well, and every thing looks normal.
> 
> My Vocal Cords need to continue the healing process. At least I'm able to talk now, after two and half months of being mute, but I still need to limit the amount of talking, as to not stress my vocal cords.
> 
> This has been a big relief for me, both psychologically, and physically, since I can talk now, and not bother using a phone app. to communicate, and knowing that all is going well.
> 
> Thank You Very Much for all your get well wishes here on VI-Control. I wish you all very good health, success, and the enjoyment of the amazing world of Music.
> 
> 🧡 & Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I was going to check in on you today. I'm glad you're getting better! I imagine you still want to be careful and gentle with it for a while? But hey, improvement is better than no improvement! Yay!


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I was going to check in on you today. I'm glad you're getting better! I imagine you still want to be careful and gentle with it for a while? But hey, improvement is better than no improvement! Yay!


Thank You Very Much @Casiquire 🧡

Yes, our Vocal Cords are very delicate, so I have to take it easy on them. When we speak they vibrate, and the left and right Vocal Cords rub against each other, which impedes the healing process, especially if there is any type of scarring that needs to be static, and not in motion, and nothing to touch it in order to heal properly.

I'm so happy that I can talk again though, something we usually take for granted most of our lives. It's like I got a new feature via a software update.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Thank You Very Much @Casiquire 🧡
> 
> Yes, our Vocal Cords are very delicate, so I have to take it easy on them. When we speak they vibrate, and the left and right Vocal Cords rub against each other, which impedes the healing process if there is any type of scarring that needs to be static, and not in motion, and nothing to touch it in order to heal properly.
> 
> I'm so happy that I can talk again though, something we usually take for granted most of our lives. It's like I got a new feature via a software update.


The update took a while to download but I'm glad it's running smoothly now


----------



## muziksculp

I recorded my voice the morning before the surgery using my DAW. I'm going to record my voice now, six months after the surgery to keep a log of how different it sounds, and I will record my voice again periodically to see how it's changing over time. Although it wasn't perfect the morning of the surgery, but that's the best reference point I have.


----------



## muziksculp

OK. Back to topic. 

I haven't used *MSS* and the Expanded Library yet.  

I need to do that this week. I feel I'm really missing out on enjoying it. I also haven't used *LASS 3*. 

A lot of strings libraries I have to digest this year.


----------



## mussnig

muziksculp said:


> OK. Back to topic.
> 
> I haven't used *MSS* and the Expanded Library yet.
> 
> I need to do that this week. I feel I'm really missing out on enjoying it. I also haven't used *LASS 3*.
> 
> A lot of strings libraries I have to digest this year.


If I have major libraries sitting around for more than 1-2 months without ever having really used them, I get some kind of anxiety. Do you have the same feeling?

Usually, I then end up writing some track where I really force the libraries into it. Let's say most of the times the results are "interesting" 😅


----------



## Baronvonheadless

mussnig said:


> If I have major libraries sitting around for more than 1-2 months without ever having really used them, I get some kind of anxiety. Do you have the same feeling?
> 
> Usually, I then end up writing some track where I really force the libraries into it. Let's say most of the times the results are "interesting" 😅


Haha, yes that can happen sometimes. I try not to worry about it too much and just let the pieces fall into place naturally. 

Give the natural time to see which libraries you use the most for most contexts, and then slowly start filling in/swapping out with others etc. 

Symphonic motions was like that for me, felt unused for a long time. Then when I got hammers I decided to do some tests since they both have pre-recorded patterns etc. and fell in love with how they both mix together, tonally too.

For MSS I love how it mixes with Junkie XL Brass and Abbey Road One Brass. 

Cinebrass fits in with everything of course IMO.

Don't let the anxiety take hold too much or freeze you from creating, just don't try to fit a square peg in a round hole. Or whatever the expression is haha!


----------



## mussnig

Baronvonheadless said:


> Symphonic motions was like that for me, felt unused for a long time. Then when I got hammers I decided to do some tests since they both have pre-recorded patterns etc. and fell in love with how they both mix together, tonally too.


Oh wow. I have both (and actually haven't used them too much - but at least I have) and also love the sound and features of both. I will try as you suggested.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

mussnig said:


> Oh wow. I have both (and actually haven't used them too much - but at least I have) and also love the sound and features of both. I will try as you suggested.


It's instant hybrid score vibes in a good way.


----------



## Trevor Meier

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I visited my Doctor this morning, and had my Vocal Cords exam, six months after my surgery, and I'm very happy that the results are very good, healing is going very well, and every thing looks normal.
> 
> My Vocal Cords need to continue the healing process. At least I'm able to talk now, after two and half months of being mute, but I still need to limit the amount of talking, as to not stress my vocal cords.
> 
> This has been a big relief for me, both psychologically, and physically, since I can talk now, and not bother using a phone app. to communicate, and knowing that all is going well.
> 
> Thank You Very Much for all your get well wishes here on VI-Control. I wish you all very good health, success, and the enjoyment of the amazing world of Music.
> 
> 🧡 & Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Fantastic news!! Thanks for sharing 👍


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I visited my Doctor this morning, and had my Vocal Cords exam, six months after my surgery, and I'm very happy that the results are very good, healing is going very well, and every thing looks normal.
> 
> My Vocal Cords need to continue the healing process. At least I'm able to talk now, after two and half months of being mute, but I still need to limit the amount of talking, as to not stress my vocal cords.
> 
> This has been a big relief for me, both psychologically, and physically, since I can talk now, and not bother using a phone app. to communicate, and knowing that all is going well.
> 
> Thank You Very Much for all your get well wishes here on VI-Control. I wish you all very good health, success, and the enjoyment of the amazing world of Music.
> 
> 🧡 & Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Glad to hear your vocal cords are on the mend!


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> Glad to hear your vocal cords are on the mend!


Thank You Very Much.


----------



## BasariStudios

mussnig said:


> If I have major libraries sitting around for more than 1-2 months without ever having really used them, I get some kind of anxiety. Do you have the same feeling?
> 
> Usually, I then end up writing some track where I really force the libraries into it. Let's say most of the times the results are "interesting" 😅


Most of my major Libraries including MSS, Opus, all VSL 
and many more sat for over a year doing nothing, lol.


----------



## [email protected]

I have a question regarding the normal Cello and Basses patches: Have these been updated as well? I started digging heavily into this library again this weekend and loaded all split instances and it seems that the Celli and Basses from the core library still have the old layout without "bloom" etc. in the legatos




The _expanded lagto_ library patches of the Celli and Basses are updated. So did I miss something?


----------



## Noc

[email protected] said:


> I have a question regarding the normal Cello and Basses patches: Have these been updated as well? I started digging heavily into this library again this weekend and loaded all split instances and it seems that the Celli and Basses from the core library still have the old layout without "bloom" etc. in the legatos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The _expanded lagto_ library patches of the Celli and Basses are updated. So did I miss something?


The normal, non-ExpLeg library has definitely been updated. Have you checked that your copy is up-to-date? If you click the “Audiobro” logo in the bottom-right corner you should see the version v1.2.2. Below is a pic of the Cellos A (split divisi) patch from my own copy of MSS taken just now:


----------



## Casiquire

[email protected] said:


> I have a question regarding the normal Cello and Basses patches: Have these been updated as well? I started digging heavily into this library again this weekend and loaded all split instances and it seems that the Celli and Basses from the core library still have the old layout without "bloom" etc. in the legatos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The _expanded lagto_ library patches of the Celli and Basses are updated. So did I miss something?


They've been updated for sure. Maybe try the instrument redownload in the downloader? If that doesn't work, you may need to get in touch with them to download updated samples. I'd ask in their own forums too; it's crazy but i get faster answers there. The devs are on top of it


----------



## soulofsound

[email protected] said:


> I have a question regarding the normal Cello and Basses patches: Have these been updated as well? I started digging heavily into this library again this weekend and loaded all split instances and it seems that the Celli and Basses from the core library still have the old layout without "bloom" etc. in the legatos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The _expanded lagto_ library patches of the Celli and Basses are updated. So did I miss something?


Did you load them again or were these saved with a previous project?


----------



## [email protected]

Hi, I installed the latest library update and now it works!! Thank you very much - I have no idea why on the first run only violins and violas have been updated...


----------



## Russell Anderson

I think I'm going to need to redownload at least a portion, also, as I am constantly getting prompts to locate the Stage mics, which largely appear to be there and working properly... but no amount of batch resaving nor locating the files will ever actually seem to tell Kontakt where they are. eugh


----------



## Noc

Russell Anderson said:


> I think I'm going to need to redownload at least a portion, also, as I am constantly getting prompts to locate the Stage mics, which largely appear to be there and working properly... but no amount of batch resaving nor locating the files will ever actually seem to tell Kontakt where they are. eugh


This is probably a dumb question, but I have to ask: Are you loading the patches from scratch in Kontakt, or recalling a previously saved instance in a DAW? I once had this same (well, similar) issue when loading a saved Kontakt instance with LASS 2.5 from an older project, due to having moved some sound library directories around in the meantime, and no matter how often I located the samples or batch-resaved the patches and then saved the new working instance, it never worked the next time I opened it. Only throwing it out altogether, opening a brand-new instance and loading the patches from scratch worked.


----------



## Russell Anderson

Noc said:


> This is probably a dumb question, but I have to ask: Are you loading the patches from scratch in Kontakt, or recalling a previously saved instance in a DAW? I once had this same (well, similar) issue when loading a saved Kontakt instance with LASS 2.5 from an older project, due to having moved some sound library directories around in the meantime, and no matter how often I located the samples or batch-resaved the patches and then saved the new working instance, it never worked the next time I opened it. Only throwing it out altogether, opening a brand-new instance and loading the patches from scratch worked.


It just doesn't locate them period, it doesn't even find them when I point them at the folder or the samples. Just searches, comes back empty handed, I click "ignore" and go on using it... including all of the stage samples. I haven't yet found any missing stage samples. But Kontakt has apparently, lol


----------



## Noc

Russell Anderson said:


> It just doesn't locate them period, it doesn't even find them when I point them at the folder or the samples. Just searches, comes back empty handed, I click "ignore" and go on using it... including all of the stage samples. I haven't yet found any missing stage samples. But Kontakt has apparently, lol


How very odd. I can’t remember, but I _seem_ to recall there’s a way to redownload the instrument patches and “reconnect” them to the samples without having to download all the 120 GB of sample data? I suggest contacting Audiobro by email, they’ve always been very helpful and quick enough to respond. (At the very least they might allow you to redownload the library without an additional-download fee.)


----------



## Russell Anderson

Noc said:


> How very odd. I can’t remember, but I _seem_ to recall there’s a way to redownload the instrument patches and “reconnect” them to the samples without having to download all the 120 GB of sample data? I suggest contacting Audiobro by email, they’ve always been very helpful and quick enough to respond. (At the very least they might allow you to redownload the library without an additional-download fee.)


Yeah, that’s why I haven’t been terribly concerned about it, I know in the end Audiobro is really good when it comes to support so ultimately it’s going to work out in a way I’m happy with (I mean I’m also pretty easy going). I’ll probably contact them and see what we can do. Thanks for the suggestions!


----------



## Vik

Vik said:


> I doubt that. 'Synthy' may refer more to 'synthetic' (as in unnatural) than to 'synthesizer like' – while warm isn't about synthetic/natural, but but about a sound color, probably referring to a quality it seems that most people think that MSS has more of than LASS (less harsh without processing, no exaggerated high frequencies etc).


I guess I need to re-evaulate my use of terms like natural sounding and synthetic, since this NASA video (if legitimate) apparently contains a recording of sound coming from a black hole:



Having said that – how happy are Modern Scoring Users with MSS – a year or two after it was released?


----------



## DennyB

I love it, but I’ve been distracted by staffpad for a year. So I’m just getting back into it. But something about it resonates with me. Considering getting msb even though I don’t need another brass library.


----------



## Denkii

Vik said:


> I guess I need to re-evaulate my use of terms like natural sounding and synthetic, since this NASA video (if legitimate) apparently contains a recording of sound coming from a black hole:
> 
> 
> 
> Having said that – how happy are Modern Scoring Users with MSS – a year or two after it was released?



I didn't like it that much at first.
Then it really, really grew on me (especially the solo instruments as well as the expanded legato library).

Eventually it became the reason I felt comfortable enough to uninstall CSS&CSSS. To keep it fair I have to mention that I have never been as big of a fan of the latter which is pretty sacrilegious around here. Mainly due to it's workflow.

I will say: I found MSS to be a library that is a lot better when I just used only the close mics and used my own reverbs rather than trying to make it's wet signal work with whatever I was using at the time.

I still use the solo strings and the expanded legato library often. The sections...not so much. Again mainly for workflow reasons.
Edit: yes, i know the solo strings have the same workflow but as section leaders, I prefer them over the BBCSO leaders or Spitfire solo strings which would be the alternatives at my disposal.
If i need something that is very exposed, i will use something else anyway. But for adding definition to simple passages they are great.


----------



## Casiquire

Denkii said:


> I didn't like it that much at first.
> Then it really, really grew on me (especially the solo instruments as well as the expanded legato library).
> 
> Eventually it became the reason I felt comfortable enough to uninstall CSS&CSSS. To keep it fair I have to mention that I have never been as big of a fan of the latter which is pretty sacrilegious around here. Mainly due to it's workflow.
> 
> I will say: I found MSS to be a library that is a lot better when I just used only the close mics and used my own reverbs rather than trying to make it's wet signal work with whatever I was using at the time.
> 
> I still use the solo strings and the expanded legato library often. The sections...not so much. Again mainly for workflow reasons.
> Edit: yes, i know the solo strings have the same workflow but as section leaders, I prefer them over the BBCSO leaders or Spitfire solo strings which would be the alternatives at my disposal.
> If i need something that is very exposed, i will use something else anyway. But for adding definition to simple passages they are great.


Different strokes--I tend to mute only the close and leave the other two! 

I initially really loved it but briefly put it aside to put Berlin Strings (and the rest of the strings from OT) through its paces. With the Berlin Series being so complete and having basically my ideal sound, it's likely MSS will end up playing second fiddle *slaps knee...twice*--not because it's a worse string library than Berlin, but specifically because there are so many things it still does better. The library's strengths are such that it's going to have a permanent place in my workflow. Runs and ostinati, precision, lots of tight emotion hiding under a subdued vibrato, a very neutral tone I can seamlessly work into any project or blend with other strings yet bright and clear enough to cut through, and last but not least are the built in time savers. For example I can import my midi from my notation, draw in some curves and add a few keyswitches, turn on the lookahead, and the result will be much closer to "there" than almost any library I can think of.


----------



## jazzman7

Vik said:


> I guess I need to re-evaulate my use of terms like natural sounding and synthetic, since this NASA video (if legitimate) apparently contains a recording of sound coming from a black hole:
> 
> 
> 
> Having said that – how happy are Modern Scoring Users with MSS – a year or two after it was released?



This is extrapolated from data and pitched upward 57-58 octaves! Not exactly a "natural" sound


----------



## Casiquire

jazzman7 said:


> This is extrapolated from data and pitched upward 57-58 octaves! Not exactly a "natural" sound


It must be a fascinating job determining how to bring astronomical or atomic-level concepts that are outside our perception into our sensory range. You can never get it "right" and everyone will interpret it too literally, but it must be fun nonetheless. And they alter and color a whole lot of the sights and sounds we get from them.


----------



## jazzman7

Casiquire said:


> It must be a fascinating job determining how to bring astronomical or atomic-level concepts that are outside our perception into our sensory range. You can never get it "right" and everyone will interpret it too literally, but it must be fun nonetheless. And they alter and color a whole lot of the sights and sounds we get from them.


Actually, I Agree. It's pretty damn cool! So much of our language and experience can't prepare us for "real" reality!


----------



## Noc

Vik said:


> I guess I need to re-evaulate my use of terms like natural sounding and synthetic, since this NASA video (if legitimate) apparently contains a recording of sound coming from a black hole:
> 
> 
> 
> Having said that – how happy are Modern Scoring Users with MSS – a year or two after it was released?



It remains my workhorse strings library (after switching from LASS), and I’ve never looked back. Gorgeous tone (at least when tweaked properly – I use the Close & Stage mics at unity with Surround disabled since I feel it adds some unwanted muddiness to the tone), extremely usable and versatile, very consistent and user-friendly once you summit the learning curve, and overall produces glorious results.

Only thing I’d like tweaked is adding certain technique/articulation combinations, such as sordino shorts, tremolo sul tasto, etc. (I know it’s possible to simulate these with the Intuition patches, but I’ve found there’s a difference in tone between the default and Intuition patches that can clash a bit when one follows the other back-to-back).


----------



## novaburst

MSS was a must purchase then, and today I would say they are still a must buy, they certainly are not a library that will sit on the shelf, 

And perhaps the most customizable library on the market, so for instance I don't think I have seen a tighten knob for staccato (shorts) on any string library.


----------



## Russell Anderson

NSS provides envelopes for amp/filter (ao is really into sound design) @novaburst


----------



## mussnig

novaburst said:


> And perhaps the most customizable library on the market, so for instance I don't think I have seen a tighten knob for staccato (shorts) on any string library.


I'm not completely sure what that knob does but e.g. with Spitfire's string libraries for Kontakt you usually have a tightness slider for all shorts (cuts in the sample start) as well as the possibility to stretch the samples via TMPro (these are usually separate patches, though).

That being said, MSS has of course many other great and probably unique features - I was deeply impressed by the aleatoric stuff.


----------



## Noc

mussnig said:


> I'm not completely sure what that knob does but e.g. with Spitfire's string libraries for Kontakt you usually have a tightness slider for all shorts (cuts in the sample start)


MSS’s Tighten knob works similarly, though instead of cutting into the sample start, it controls the sample duration and release, which helps prevent janky-sounding note overlaps. Between the four different shorts types and the Tighten knob available for each, you can pretty much have shorts of any duration.

From the MSS manual (p.29):


> *Tighten—* Control the duration and release of the shorts. The *Auto Mode* will automatically adjust the release time based on your playing.


----------



## mussnig

Noc said:


> MSS’s Tighten knob works similarly, though instead of cutting into the sample start, it controls the sample duration and release, which helps prevent janky-sounding note overlaps. Between the four different shorts types and the Tighten knob available for each, you can pretty much have shorts of any duration.


But then I guess it's similar to the TMPro patches that come with Spitfire's Kontakt libs. Although I find it quite unconvenient that they didn't include the TMPro option in the "main" patches.


----------



## Noc

mussnig said:


> But then I guess it's similar to the TMPro patches that come with Spitfire's Kontakt libs. Although I find it quite unconvenient that they didn't include the TMPro option in the "main" patches.


I’ve never used TMPro in any capacity, so I couldn’t say how it compares. I don’t think the MSS Tighten knob can stretch samples though; it only shortens them, if desired.


----------



## mussnig

Noc said:


> I’ve never used TMPro in any capacity, so I couldn’t say how it compares. I don’t think the MSS Tighten knob can stretch samples though; it only shortens them, if desired.


You mean it cuts off the end?


----------



## Noc

mussnig said:


> You mean it cuts off the end?


Basically. Though of course it does so in a well-scripted way; the notes still sound natural to my ear, just shorter. Of course, you can leave the Tighten knob at 100%, which gives you the full uncut sample, which is where I leave it by default unless I string a bunch of shorts together in rapid succession.


----------



## mussnig

Noc said:


> Basically. Though of course it does so in a well-scripted way; the notes still sound natural to my ear, just shorter. Of course, you can leave the Tighten knob at 100%, which gives you the full uncut sample, which is where I leave it by default unless I string a bunch of shorts together in rapid succession.


So this is for sure not using any TMPro trickery? If so, then this is a very cool approach in my opinion - saves resources!


----------



## Noc

mussnig said:


> So this is for sure not using any TMPro trickery? If so, then this is a very cool approach in my opinion - saves resources!


Really couldn’t tell you either way, so I don’t wanna make any false claims.  I just know the knob controls the sample durations. If you’re curious you could definitely ask Audiobro for details on how it works, either by email or on their forum; they’re happy to talk about the nitty-gritty of their libraries.


----------



## novaburst

mussnig said:


> I'm not completely sure what that knob does but e.g. with Spitfire's string libraries for Kontakt you usually have a tightness slider for all shorts (cuts in the sample start) as well as the possibility to stretch the samples via TMPro (these are usually separate patches, though).
> 
> That being said, MSS has of course many other great and probably unique features - I was deeply impressed by the aleatoric stuff.


Haha would you believe I do not have any SF library's on kontakt developers who use Kontakt 
Can squeeze a lot of customizable edits out of the sampler


----------



## Markrs

MSS totally passed me by originally probably due to the price but I have been watching an all the Audiobro videos along with those by @Soundbed and I am totally blown away by it. There is so much depth to this much more than I was expecting.

It is currently on sale at a very good price, I’m my case probably too good a price to turn down.





The only issue is if do I have enough time before the sale ends too deep dive into MSB and will I want to buy that instead of Infinite Brass?


----------



## Grizzlymv

Markrs said:


> MSS totally passed me by originally probably due to the price but I have been watching an all the Audiobro videos along with those by @Soundbed and I am totally blown away by it. There is so much depth to this much more than I was expecting.
> 
> It is currently on sale at a very good price, I’m my case probably too good a price to turn down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only issue is if do I have enough time before the sale ends too deep dive into MSB and will I want to buy that instead of Infinite Brass?



If you want great sound and the same amount of flexibility that MSS is offering, then don't hesitate too much!  I decided to get MSB shortly after I got MSS as I was quite please by MSS. Still going through all the content, but I'd say I'm still comparing them against my previous go to (CSS/CSSS/CSB) and as I mentioned in other posts, those have different sounds, but I'm really considering switching to MSS/MSB as my go to, as the sound is there for me, but then you get all that extra control and arts. I was hesitant at first due to the many feedbacks I've read about the tone and room, but to me at least, those aren't a concern. If you like what MSS brings on the strings, chances are high that you'll like what MSB brings on the brass. 

My only issue with MSS so far is the fact that the MIDI Drag doesn't work for me. I mean it does bring midi to the track, but only the first note. not the pattern. wierd.


----------



## Markrs

Grizzlymv said:


> If you want great sound and the same amount of flexibility that MSS is offering, then don't hesitate too much!  I decided to get MSB shortly after I got MSS as I was quite please by MSS. Still going through all the content, but I'd say I'm still comparing them against my previous go to (CSS/CSSS/CSB) and as I mentioned in other posts, those have different sounds, but I'm really considering switching to MSS/MSB as my go to, as the sound is there for me, but then you get all that extra control and arts. I was hesitant at first due to the many feedbacks I've read about the tone and room, but to me at least, those aren't a concern. If you like what MSS brings on the strings, chances are high that you'll like what MSB brings on the brass.
> 
> My only issue with MSS so far is the fact that the MIDI Drag doesn't work for me. I mean it does bring midi to the track, but only the first note. not the pattern. wierd.


Really appreciate your thoughts on this. It is a big decision as I have wanted Infinite Brass for a long time.


----------



## robgb

I have enough strings libraries already, but if someone wants to buy this for me, I won't say no.

Just thought I'd put that out there.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Markrs said:


> The only issue is if do I have enough time before the sale ends too deep dive into MSB and will I want to buy that instead of Infinite Brass?


Two entirely different workflows and approaches IMO (owning both). The tone is also quite different as you would expect given one is modeled and the other is traditionally sampled.

I posted a demo of the James Bond theme done with MSB in another thread. I believe somebody has done the same for Infinite Brass at some point here.


----------



## Markrs

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Two entirely different workflows and approaches IMO (owning both). The tone is also quite different as you would expect given one is modeled and the other is traditionally sampled.
> 
> I posted a demo of the James Bond theme done with MSB in another thread. I believe somebody has done the same for Infinite Brass at some point here.


My instinct is to go with Infinite Brass as I really liked modelled libraries. I will have a look for those mock-ups you mentioned 👍


----------



## shawnsingh

Demo - The Name's Bond — Aaron Venture







www.aaronventure.com


----------



## Mark Steven

Markrs said:


> MSS totally passed me by originally probably due to the price but I have been watching an all the Audiobro videos along with those by @Soundbed and I am totally blown away by it. There is so much depth to this much more than I was expecting.
> 
> It is currently on sale at a very good price, I’m my case probably too good a price to turn down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only issue is if do I have enough time before the sale ends too deep dive into MSB and will I want to buy that instead of Infinite Brass?



I have been using Modern Scoring Strings and LASS, LASS 3, for quite awhile and there is plenty on this forum and YouTube (as you may have seen) to take advantage of the deal they are offering. The Aaron Venture products are IMHO still being developed and much more great things will be coming from them in the future. Audiobro on the other hand, is a mature company with well thought out products and SUPERIOR service when you need it. I picked up MSB and Children's choir this time around AND it also included an additional discount for buying 2 products. Great Deal!


----------



## sostenuto

Markrs said:


> My instinct is to go with Infinite Brass as I really liked modelled libraries. I will have a look for those mock-ups you mentioned 👍


Samples PLZ ! 
Only modeling, currently watching, sounds like _ _Bundchen_


----------



## samplin

Markrs said:


> My instinct is to go with Infinite Brass as I really liked modelled libraries. I will have a look for those mock-ups you mentioned 👍


I have the brass.... I use it to sketch out ideas and then replace with my other brass libraries... I've learned to not replace them until Ive added the other instruments as many times they sit really well in the mix and sound great in context... another use is for orchestral pop tracks.... I had a simple brass line that needed "pop" phrasing and infinate succeeded where the others didnt. hope that helps.


----------



## Mark Steven

sostenuto said:


> Samples PLZ !
> Only modeling, currently watching, sounds like _ _Bundchen_


I just read your reply and tried to find 
"Bundchen" thinking it was a VSTi developer...is that a modeling company or could you be referring to:
Gisele Bündchen And Tom Brady’s Divorce?!​Seriously, would like to know about other quality orchestral modeling options if you know of any....


----------



## Wenlone




----------



## novaburst

This is very good thanks for posting,


----------



## Chocolino

A pity that they have already returned to their "normal" price. It's time to save for when they go on sale again


----------



## d4vec4rter

Wenlone said:


>



I think this demonstrates just HOW good this library is when one puts the time and effort into the programming. Such a wonderfully refined sound... when you want it (quite different to LASS 3).


----------



## novaburst

Chocolino said:


> A pity that they have already returned to their "normal" price. It's time to save for when they go on sale again


They are still on the sale price, that goes for all the products


----------



## Markrs

novaburst said:


> They are still on the sale price, that goes for all the products


It is a sale price but it is quite a bit more expensive that the BF price for MSS which was $329 instead of the current price of $449


----------



## novaburst

I think the high price is for the full version with the additional packs but the lower price is still £300 or so


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Shit I bought MSS + the expansion full price. 

Get it!


----------



## Chocolino

novaburst said:


> I think the high price is for the full version with the additional packs but the lower price is still £300 or so


They have gone up after Black Friday. MSS + Expanded Legato appeared to me at $429 (I own Genesis) while now it appears at $599

Maybe @dxmachina can shed some light on us in a more official way.


----------



## Markrs

novaburst said:


> I think the high price is for the full version with the additional packs but the lower price is still £300 or so


Definitely gone up in price from BF prices. At BF It was $489 for MSS Complete, $329 for MSS and $199 for Expanded Legato.


----------



## dzilizzi

Looks like it is back to the pre-BF sales prices


----------



## awaey

No Christmas or New Years sale ?
I was waiting for my wage to upgrade from lass...


----------



## novaburst

Markrs said:


> Definitely gone up in price from BF prices. At BF It was $489 for MSS Complete, $329 for MSS and $199 for Expanded Legato.


Yes i stand corrected they slapped another 100 on top of the MSS


----------



## Chocolino

awaey said:


> No Christmas or New Years sale ?
> I was waiting for my wage to upgrade from lass...


I agree with the question. @dxmachina I invoke you!


----------



## dxmachina

@Chocolino I was feeling a tingle at the base of my neck... it could only be VI-C invocation.

More holiday sales incoming very soon...


----------



## Markrs

I got MSS in the BF sale, they price was spot on for being the right side of very tempting 😂 It is a really impressive library that is crazy feature packed. It is easily the most complete string library I own and I am really looking forward to getting to work with it.

For anyone tempted with this it is very much worthwhile watching Audiobro’s videos on it and those by @Soundbed.

I was tempted with the extended legato but for the extra features that felt a bit too much money. It is hard to put a price on something (everyone is different in how they value something based on their needs) but the extended legato just didn’t offer enough for $199 even with the discount for owning MSS. If it had been around $100 after the discount for owning MSS, that would have been much more tempting.

Of course, I felt good about resisting Extended Legato only to be seduced by the very nice price on Genesis Choir after the MSS crossgrade (It came in at $120). Which in the end proved too tempting to say no to, even though it meant getting something that wasn’t on my list.

The only thing is I wish there were more video on Genesis choir, as even Audiobro don’t have any videos on it covering it’s features. It was only due to lots of positive reviews/comments on here that I felt it was okay to take a risk on it. I think some videos would have helped.


----------



## galaxy

Are you planning an update with the new gui for LADD ?
Would be awesome !!!
And a CHOIR library "men women" also..... Haha..
And you could also create a mix only little lib of MSS ....
Those libs are gigantic....

Thanks a lot.


----------



## dxmachina

@Markrs Thanks for those very nice words. Did you see these videos: Genesis Videos ? 

@galaxy Keep an ear/eye out...


----------



## Markrs

dxmachina said:


> @Markrs Thanks for those very nice words. Did you see these videos: Genesis Videos ?


I have no idea how I missed those, I think I just looked on your YouTube channel and as I couldn’t find any there I just assumed there wasn’t any. I will have an explore as that will help me using the library 👍



dxmachina said:


> @galaxy Keep an ear/eye out...


 that sounds very promising 😁


----------



## Grizzlymv

Hmm. Was looking at LADD after a few post in this forums (I initially overlooked it as I thought it was a FX rhythm / loops tool only to realize it's an actual full orchestral percs with single hits as well... damn me! ahah), but I do realize that the price is actually identical whether I'm logged or not. Not sure if that's to be expected. I thought as a owner of MSS full, MSB and Genesis there would be a slight advantage over a newcomer, but maybe the price is already discounted enough at 199 that everyone gets the same?


----------



## Grizzlymv

Actually, all prices are the same whether I'm logged or not. 

As anymous:






As me:





It's says the the prices have been updated to reflect my personal discount, but doesn't seem so since the prices are no different. Not sure if it's the same for everyone else?


----------



## Markrs

Grizzlymv said:


> Actually, all prices are the same whether I'm logged or not.
> 
> As anymous:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's says the the prices have been updated to reflect my personal discount, but doesn't seem so since the prices are no different. Not sure if it's the same for everyone else?


My only changed when they were added to my cart if I recall


----------



## Grizzlymv

Markrs said:


> My only changed when they were added to my cart if I recall


hmmm. just tried it but it doesn't seem to make a difference:


----------



## Markrs

Grizzlymv said:


> hmmm. just tried it but it doesn't seem to make a difference:


I just tried as well and no discount for me. What is interesting is I tried MSB as well and I didn’t get a discount for that, even though during BF when adding it into the cart with MSS I did get a discount. Looks like something might be broken with the personal discount.


----------



## Grizzlymv

Markrs said:


> I just tried as well and no discount for me. What is interesting is I tried MSB as well and I didn’t get a discount for that, even though during BF when adding it into the cart with MSS I did get a discount. Looks like something might be broken with the personal discount.


Maybe something for @dxmachina to have a look at or chime in?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Wenlone said:


>



Damn, saw this video on the last day of the sale (during the last four hours). It made me buy both MSB and MSS (Core), because I like Sebastian (@dxmachina) and Andrew‘s dedication and the quality of LASS.

Opening the Violins 1 patch, I was very disappointed with everything and couldn‘t believe that this library was from the same masterminds…

My problems and fixes:

Reverb/processing: Turn it off
Divisi: Turn it off
Humanization: Turn it off (Have to experiment to find the right settings)
Mic mix: Turn it off
Legato Auto: Turn it off (I watched all of the older 1.0 videos and prefer the original shorter legato, but still haven‘t found a good setting on my own; never use auto-speed, it’s very unpredictable and makes the library no favour)
Molto Vibrato: Turn it off (the original vibrato already has beautiful molto vibrato, why these synthetic one? it‘s too much)

Apart from that: I like the tone, it‘s still a classic scoring stage sound which I really prefer to a hall.

All of the time I thought there is something wrong with the violins, let it be phasing, artifacts, resonances, I don‘t know. We don’t know where the library was recorded, but having watched several scoring sessions in Studio 22 on YouTube I can really hear the same artifacts. So maybe it‘s this room, but I like this room a lot.

Haven‘t gone through both libraries, but the beautiful interface, the feature set, the overall tone and quality has to be awarded. The legatos need some mending. For me, it‘s a shame having bought the libraries so inexpensive. They deserve a higher price and better marketing!


----------



## Noc

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Damn, saw this video on the last day of the sale (during the last four hours). It made me buy both MSB and MSS (Core), because I like Sebastian (@dxmachina) and Andrew‘s dedication and the quality of LASS.
> 
> Opening the Violins 1 patch, I was very disappointed with everything and couldn‘t believe that this library was from the same masterminds…
> 
> My problems and fixes:
> 
> Reverb/processing: Turn it off
> Divisi: Turn it off
> Humanization: Turn it off (Have to experiment to find the right settings)
> Mic mix: Turn it off
> Legato Auto: Turn it off (I watched all of the older 1.0 videos and prefer the original shorter legato, but still haven‘t found a good setting on my own; never use auto-speed, it’s very unpredictable and makes the library no favour)
> Molto Vibrato: Turn it off (the original vibrato already has beautiful molto vibrato, why these synthetic one? it‘s too much)
> 
> Apart from that: I like the tone, it‘s still a classic scoring stage sound which I really prefer to a hall.
> 
> All of the time I thought there is something wrong with the violins, let it be phasing, artifacts, resonances, I don‘t know. We don’t know where the library was recorded, but having watched several scoring sessions in Studio 22 on YouTube I can really hear the same artifacts. So maybe it‘s this room, but I like this room a lot.
> 
> Haven‘t gone through both libraries, but the beautiful interface, the feature set, the overall tone and quality has to be awarded. The legatos need some mending. For me, it‘s a shame having bought the libraries so inexpensive. They deserve a higher price and better marketing!


My advice to anyone using MSS for the first time is always to start off by disabling the Mix mic and to use only the Close & Stage mics (mixing those two however preferred). The Surround mic (whose samples are used in the Mix mic) adds some muddiness to the sound that ruins it, IMO; turning it off really cleans the sound up. EDIT: Oh, and also turn all EQs off. The raw sound is perfectly lovely on its own.

I also set the legato speed knob down all the way, which creates a longer delay but produces really lovely results, IMO. I only turn it up manually if I need to for fast passages. I use split patches exclusively for maximum control, with humanization disabled on all of them.

Finally, I keep molto vibrato on; I actually find it’s reasonably subtle, certainly far more so than the extra-schmaltzy vibrato in CSS. I treat turning molto vib. off as “poco vib.” in my scores.

All that put together, I find the library has a really lovely tone, lush and silky, with beautiful legatos. But of course, that’s just my subjective experience.


----------



## dxmachina

@Markrs That's normal - not everything has a loyalty discount (mostly it's the string libraries depending on what is already owned). That said, sale pricing is still incoming again.

@Pixelpoet1985 I relate to almost all of this in fact (and probably posted nearly an identical list in another thread). The only exception is the molto vibrato (depending on intent). Just want to clarify that this isn't a simulation... but we're pushing harder on the first chair to get a more pronounced vibrato.

As for the rest, it's pretty much where I start as well (there's a snapshot for each instrument that loads discrete mics out separate Kontakt outs and disables the rest of the mixer). Beyond that I disable the EQs in the mixer as well and also prefer to do some further stereo imaging (for instance, I often tighten up the violins and push a little further to the left). Bottom line - it's always a bit of a compromise as to how these things ship out of the box.


----------



## Chocolino

Grizzlymv said:


> Maybe something for @dxmachina to have a look at or chime in?





Grizzlymv said:


> Maybe something for @dxmachina to have a look at or chime in?


They recently launched the new website. They may not have it fully tuned yet. That said, they have spectacular support so they won't take long to fix it.


----------



## dxmachina

@Noc - yep, I like slowest legato as well, but it's not for everyone. I found 11' is usually a nice balance when you don't want to hear as much latency.


----------



## Casiquire

Lookahead is great for those slower legatos. I tend to have the speed somewhere around like 9:00 and the offset around 10-11, lookahead on. I actually like the stage and surround mics personally but maybe I'll experiment more with the close since everyone really seems to like them. I haven't tried them in months so maybe my opinion will be different now


----------



## Noc

Casiquire said:


> Lookahead is great for those slower legatos. I tend to have the speed somewhere around like 9:00 and the offset around 10-11, lookahead on. I actually like the stage and surround mics personally but maybe I'll experiment more with the close since everyone really seems to like them. I haven't tried them in months so maybe my opinion will be different now


Personally I like my strings to sound a bit closer, since they’re at the front of the ensemble from the audience’s perspective, but with careful mixing with the Stage mic they don’t sound shoved up in your face either. Really nicely balanced, IMO.


----------



## Grizzlymv

dxmachina said:


> @Markrs That's normal - not everything has a loyalty discount (mostly it's the string libraries depending on what is already owned). That said, sale pricing is still incoming again.


Ah. that explains it. However, as showed in my screen shots (https://vi-control.net/community/threads/audiobro-modern-scoring-strings.101913/post-5249060), all libraries shows the same for me whether I'm logged or not, and I do own MSS full, MSB and Genesis. So I don't know if that's correct or if there should be a difference on some libs. But anyway, more of a FYI in case there's a problem with the site. 

Cheers.


----------



## prodigalson

dxmachina said:


> @Noc - yep, I like slowest legato as well, but it's not for everyone. I found 11' is usually a nice balance when you don't want to hear as much latency.


I love MSS but I'm struggling to get adequate results with the lookahead. My main issue is that when using it the first note in a legato phrase always plays earlier than it should and no matter what I do I can't get the 1st note to play in time. Shifting it back 400ms doesn't work, it still plays back 400ms ahead of where I want it (ostensibly now 800ms ahead of where it's placed in the piano roll). I've tried using sustain articulation for the 1st note but of course I won't get a legato transition in this case. Im used to this issue in other libraries but shifting the 1st note back by the offset usually does the trick but in MSS no matter where I put the 1st note, with lookahead active, it always plays back in the same place but too early. Any advice?


----------



## jneebz

dxmachina said:


> @galaxy Keep an ear/eye out...


@dxmachina ….If in fact you are referring to a GUI update for LADD, which I have been begging for since I bought it years ago, I will literally throw a party in your honor.

[Edit] …and possibly post pictures…


----------



## Markrs

dxmachina said:


> @Markrs That's normal - not everything has a loyalty discount (mostly it's the string libraries depending on what is already owned). That said, sale pricing is still incoming again.


Thanks @dxmachina though it does lead to a bit of confusion when buying. If I had bough MSB with MSS I would have got a discount (which seemed to be pretty decent) but as I bought MSS first and then would like to add MSB later, then there is no loyalty discount. However if I had bought MSB first then bought MSS I would have got a discount.

This is never explained anywhere, that there isn’t a customer loyalty but only a discount on MSS if you own it but with other libraries. 

I think a loyalty discount is great to reward loyal customers and it should be a universal discount as other companies do. So that, if I wanted to buy MSB I would get the same discount, as I got offered when I was buying with MSS. As the current system works I would get no discount.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

^^ yeah it’s kind of fucked up compared to companies like cinematic studios. 

I bought MSS + expanded legato bundle for $800 full price when it came out (maybe that was introduction can’t remember). 

& I don’t have a loyalty discount. You only have to drop $400 at cinematic studios to qualify for loyalty towards anything else make. Which is amazing. 

I love both products for sure and do not regret. It was the one time I had money to burn. 

However, just putting it into perspective.


----------



## Casiquire

Why are we holding Audiobro to the standards of other companies who are the exception, not the norm? I do wish the pricing structure was clearer, but I don't see where any part of it is unfair or "fucked up". With most devs, you buy the library for the price on the label, and that's it


----------



## Grizzlymv

Casiquire said:


> Why are we holding Audiobro to the standards of other companies who are the exception, not the norm? I do wish the pricing structure was clearer, but I don't see where any part of it is unfair or "fucked up". With most devs, you buy the library for the price on the label, and that's it


I don't think anyone blame Audiobro or said it was unfair. At least that's not how I felt it. But more that the wording could be a bit misleading on their site. They shouldn't need to have to explain it in a forum thread. The wording should just make it clear from the get go, ie: If the loyalty is only from LASS to MSS, then instead of "log in to see your loyalty price" could just be a note on MSS discounted price saying "as a owner of LASS, here's your discounted price for MSS" and that's it. If you don't own LASS, then you don't see it. On my end, what I wanted to highlight is more the fact that the price is identical for any given product whether you're an existing customer or not. Might just be a bug (or not) of their new site. Only them know for sure. But when prices are identical in both situation, then the "log in to see your loyalty price" kind of not make sense and should probably just be removed if that's intended. 

Anyway, nothing against their process. Each company do their own thing. In the end, I still ended up picking up LADD last night and quite happy about it so far. The funny part is that I was always looking at Audiobro as I was really looking and planning to get LASS for so long...and now once I started to dive into their products, I'm in a position where I do own everything Audiobro did do...except for LASS.. ahah..


----------



## Markrs

Casiquire said:


> Why are we holding Audiobro to the standards of other companies who are the exception, not the norm? I do wish the pricing structure was clearer, but I don't see where any part of it is unfair or "fucked up". With most devs, you buy the library for the price on the label, and that's it


I think loyalty discounts can be a good way to reward those that buy your products. However my main point was that if I had know the discounts I got were only because of buying MSS, then I might have though whether to buy other options to secure that discount.

I assumed that the discounts were due to customer loyalty which is implied in the messaging, not due to only getting a discount when buying MSS and if you buy later there is no discount. I think it is fair for them to be much clearer in this than the current messaging.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Companies can do whatever they want. 

Consumers can think whatever they want. 

I’m not boycotting anyone.


----------



## Soundbed

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Damn, saw this video on the last day of the sale (during the last four hours). It made me buy both MSB and MSS (Core), because I like Sebastian (@dxmachina) and Andrew‘s dedication and the quality of LASS.
> 
> Opening the Violins 1 patch, I was very disappointed with everything and couldn‘t believe that this library was from the same masterminds…
> 
> My problems and fixes:
> 
> Reverb/processing: Turn it off
> Divisi: Turn it off
> Humanization: Turn it off (Have to experiment to find the right settings)
> Mic mix: Turn it off
> Legato Auto: Turn it off (I watched all of the older 1.0 videos and prefer the original shorter legato, but still haven‘t found a good setting on my own; never use auto-speed, it’s very unpredictable and makes the library no favour)
> Molto Vibrato: Turn it off (the original vibrato already has beautiful molto vibrato, why these synthetic one? it‘s too much)
> 
> Apart from that: I like the tone, it‘s still a classic scoring stage sound which I really prefer to a hall.
> 
> All of the time I thought there is something wrong with the violins, let it be phasing, artifacts, resonances, I don‘t know. We don’t know where the library was recorded, but having watched several scoring sessions in Studio 22 on YouTube I can really hear the same artifacts. So maybe it‘s this room, but I like this room a lot.
> 
> Haven‘t gone through both libraries, but the beautiful interface, the feature set, the overall tone and quality has to be awarded. The legatos need some mending. For me, it‘s a shame having bought the libraries so inexpensive. They deserve a higher price and better marketing!


Welcome to the club! 

As @dxmachina pointed out, there are snapshots for most of these suggestions! It's where I tend to start out as well, turning off most of that stuff. As I've mentioned elsewhere, this is one of the only libraries where I save my own "customized" settings for every instrument section and start there.

The only difference is: I do use molto vib. most of the time. And it's not synthetic, which @dxmachina also mentioned.

The other thing I wonder is whether you like the sound of "auto" legato, on "Normal," when playing back vs when playing live? This is one of those libraries that I tend to like better on playback versus live playing, which is fine for me because my keyboard skills have not improved since I was in 4th grade.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> The only difference is: I do use molto vib. most of the time. And it's not synthetic, which @dxmachina also mentioned.


I didn‘t know that before, I always thought it would be some kind of trickery, because the original before the update already was molto vibrato. 

I correct my statement: I use molto vibrato on higher dynamics now.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> The other thing I wonder is whether you like the sound of "auto" legato, on "Normal," when playing back vs when playing live? This is one of those libraries that I tend to like better on playback versus live playing, which is fine for me because my keyboard skills have not improved since I was in 4th grade.


Auto legato is so slow. I like the responsiveness of MSB, but haven‘t yet found a good setting to achieve the same fluidity with MSS. Maybe it‘s not possible. 

I see some usage for 'bloom', but tend to prefer 'normal' and 'bowed'. Pity that we can‘t choose only these two and let them trigger by playing speed. I would like to have 'bowed' on slower phrases and 'normal' on faster ones (similar to HS bowchange + slur legato). 

I also would love to be able to make, let‘s say, two fixed legato speeds (e.g. slow and runs) I could choose from instead of auto speed, and let them trigger by playing speed.

For your other question I haven‘t an answer yet, need more investigation.


----------



## Duncan Krummel

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I see some usage for 'bloom', but tend to prefer 'normal' and 'bowed'. Pity that we can‘t choose only these two and let them trigger by playing speed. I would like to have 'bowed' on slower phrases and 'normal' on faster ones (similar to HS bowchange + slur legato).


You _could _either set the note attack slider to correspond to velocity like CSS, or connect it to a separate CC and use this in an articulation set/expression map. Then you can just select which notes you want to have which attack type. If I’m not mistaken, that’s what the provided sets/maps do, and it’s very intuitive.

Likewise, you could set the legato speed to a CC and do the same, thereby having 2 legato speeds to choose from.


----------



## TimCox

After tweaking with things a bit, I love MSS and am super happy to have it.

Things I changed:

- divisi off on every patch with it's on/off set to a button of my choice.
- All patches set to "per voice" for divisi and set to dual, when I switch it on I want the section to be smaller right away.
- Detune on/off set to a button and the knob set to one of my midi sliders.
- Ostinatos added to every patch.
- Depth control positioning for every section, I just wanted a SLIGHTLY bigger stereo space for them.

Currently still using the mix mic and standard EQ's but planning on screwing around with those soon!


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Could someone point me to examples where specifically the "short" articulations of the solo / first chair strings are being showed and even more specifically the CLOSE mic option on those or maybe someone can be bothered to make an example? Would be very difficult to sift through every showcase to find such a specific part.


----------



## Vik

TimCox said:


> - divisi off on every patch with it's on/off set to a button of my choice.
> - All patches set to "per voice" for divisi and set to dual, when I switch it on I want the section to be smaller right away.
> - Detune on/off set to a button and the knob set to one of my midi sliders.
> - Ostinatos added to every patch.
> - Depth control positioning for every section, I just wanted a SLIGHTLY bigger stereo space for them.


That's interesting info for a MSS noob like myself, but: I also look for a way to set up a default with divisi off but which never gives me a slow portamento transition unless I play a note with very high velocity. Is that easy to set up?

Also – when it comes to MSS, I still confused about the difference between glissando and portamento. I tend to end up in situations where a note being faded in slowly from a very low level happens in the midst of a phrase (without me 'asking for it'). Any advice would be welcome.


----------



## MelodicAdagio

I've been wanting to pick up Modern Scoring Strings for awhile. I finally did recently with the holiday sale. I haven't had a chance to play around with it too much yet, but I'm liking what I hear. It's a very lush sound and a nice room. I may have to tweak things a little and get used to certain things, but that's not a big deal. I'm pretty impressed with it so far.


----------



## Soundbed

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Auto legato is so slow.


That’s why I asked if you like it when playing back. It seems you don’t like it when playing live, right? If so, I think I have a “fix” but I need to understand if auto is too slow when playing back or when playing live. (Or both.)


Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I see some usage for 'bloom', but tend to prefer 'normal' and 'bowed'. Pity that we can‘t choose only these two and let them trigger by playing speed. I would like to have 'bowed' on slower phrases and 'normal' on faster ones (similar to HS bowchange + slur legato).


hmm… my 1st thought was along the lines of @Duncan Krummel ’s response. I.e., use a cc or controller or articulation picker to choose those two transitions.

But you want it to play a normal transition unless a new note doesn’t come in for X ms, then play a bowed transition on the new note after those X ms? How many ms? Because that would mean a delay as well. (I’m not sure how the EWHW does this.)


Vik said:


> a way to set up a default with divisi off but which never gives me a slow portamento transition unless I play a note with very high velocity. Is that easy to set up?


Are you planning to ever use gliss? You can drag both sliders near the top, and avoid the section for gliss. So, obv., there are two sliders for leg, port and gliss. Gliss is at the extreme. You can set it at the bottom of velocity or top. Set it for top velocity, and port to start wherever you want it as a “high” velocity. If you never want gliss set it to 127 and limit your incoming midi to bring the velocities from controllers down -1 or to stop at 126.

(Maybe there are other ways.)


----------



## Soundbed

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Could someone point me to examples where specifically the "short" articulations of the solo / first chair strings are being showed and even more specifically the CLOSE mic option on those or maybe someone can be bothered to make an example? Would be very difficult to sift through every showcase to find such a specific part.


I haven’t made examples for this yet, but I could (maybe tomorrow). Is this part of your exploration of solo instruments (cello, specifically?) that have a sense of stereo “space” but also sound close mic’d? (Trying to recall what you were looking for, in that other thread.)


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Soundbed said:


> I haven’t made examples for this yet, but I could (maybe tomorrow). Is this part of your exploration of solo instruments (cello, specifically?) that have a sense of stereo “space” but also sound close mic’d? (Trying to recall what you were looking for, in that other thread.)


Many thanks!
Yea indeed. I got the expanded legatos now and the solos and their mics in there sound promising, but of course it's just legato.


----------



## Soundbed

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Many thanks!
> Yea indeed. I got the expanded legatos now and the solos and their mics in there sound promising, but of course it's just legato.


Oh, you _only_ bought expanded legato? Ok I’ll make something with the main product’s solo shorts tomorrow unless there’s some emergency around here.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Soundbed said:


> That’s why I asked if you like it when playing back. It seems you don’t like it when playing live, right? If so, I think I have a “fix” but I need to understand if auto is too slow when playing back or when playing live. (Or both.)


Thanks. I already asked in the Audiobro forum. Didn‘t know that you can go in the Kontakt backend and draw your own curve for the auto legato. My curve is now rather steep and very quick.

For me there is no difference between live and playback.  Or do I something wrong? I always adapt my playing. Each library is different.


----------



## RyanRhea

I got suckered by the sale. Man, what a disappointing library! I don't even know if I really like the sound, just an insanely expensive impulse purchase based on the LASS rep... which I am discovering that I likely wouldn't like very much either, if I had it. I play everything in and even though I have a few other latency-heavy libraries that I am happy to mentally compensate for when playing them, MSS is quite literally _broken_ out of the box in terms of sound and playability. Why? After nearly three years of complaints, confusion and openly expressed instant regret by customers, they still ship it configured this way? I know most of us eventually get it all figured it out (as some of those same regrets are later amended, etc.), but why give it to us ass first like this causing people to feel like they just shat hundreds of dollars out the window for nothing? Not a good first impression.

It takes considerable research and effort to learn what to turn off/on and where it all is. The manual and website only complicate matters because the authors of the product believe it works fine the way it is, I assume  so you just get led further down the wrong path. I have put together a mongrel template with some non-look ahead "dumb" libraries like ABR1, Symphobia, PS Free Orch, Appassionata and a bunch of other weird combos of things and it just smokes MSS/MSB in both playability and sound. I got the latency part of MSS mostly figured out, but now I can't get the synthy-ness out of the long string patches (which seems to be a result of turning off some of the auto stuff). The tails make the strings sound like an Arturia string patch, lol. There is a super harsh high end in them I am having a hard time taming. The violas and cellos sometimes sound more like a horn.

I had the exact same default settings issue with Tokyo Scoring Strings (now one of my all time favs!). That thing was unusable out of the box as a player. I had it for weeks thinking it was only ever going to be a mouse-clicker until I cracked it open again and finally figured out how to get rid of the latency and other unnecessary bullshit that was on by default. 

Deep features made for programming are more than welcome... just not all on by default (like a MySpace page with 10 videos all running at the same time. With sound. lol Just because you can, blah blah blah....) Devs have to keep in mind that this is like late '90s website design trends, where any old thing the designer wanted was done with no thought given to a standard (there were none until the W3C came along). Just like the vst design of today... no such thing as a standard file, edit, view menu... or any common structures or design patterns we can learn once and know how to use from then on, no matter who made it.

Not sure this library stuff will have the critical mass to ever have it's own kind of consortium... by then the AIs will be doing all the writing anyhow.


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## novaburst

RyanRhea said:


> by then the AIs will be doing all the writing anyhow.


That's the day i move to a different planet


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## Symfoniq

RyanRhea said:


> I got suckered by the sale. Man, what a disappointing library! I don't even know if I really like the sound, just an insanely expensive impulse purchase based on the LASS rep... which I am discovering that I likely wouldn't like very much either, if I had it. I play everything in and even though I have a few other latency-heavy libraries that I am happy to mentally compensate for when playing them, MSS is quite literally _broken_ out of the box in terms of sound and playability. Why? After nearly three years of complaints, confusion and openly expressed instant regret by customers, they still ship it configured this way? I know most of us eventually get it all figured it out (as some of those same regrets are later amended, etc.), but why give it to us ass first like this causing people to feel like they just shat hundreds of dollars out the window for nothing? Not a good first impression.
> 
> It takes considerable research and effort to learn what to turn off/on and where it all is. The manual and website only complicate matters because the authors of the product believe it works fine the way it is, I assume  so you just get led further down the wrong path. I have put together a mongrel template with some non-look ahead "dumb" libraries like ABR1, Symphobia, PS Free Orch, Appassionata and a bunch of other weird combos of things and it just smokes MSS/MSB in both playability and sound. I got the latency part of MSS mostly figured out, but now I can't get the synthy-ness out of the long string patches (which seems to be a result of turning off some of the auto stuff). The tails make the strings sound like an Arturia string patch, lol. There is a super harsh high end in them I am having a hard time taming. The violas and cellos sometimes sound more like a horn.
> 
> I had the exact same default settings issue with Tokyo Scoring Strings (now one of my all time favs!). That thing was unusable out of the box as a player. I had it for weeks thinking it was only ever going to be a mouse-clicker until I cracked it open again and finally figured out how to get rid of the latency and other unnecessary bullshit that was on by default.
> 
> Deep features made for programming are more than welcome... just not all on by default (like a MySpace page with 10 videos all running at the same time. With sound. lol Just because you can, blah blah blah....) Devs have to keep in mind that this is like late '90s website design trends, where any old thing the designer wanted was done with no thought given to a standard (there were none until the W3C came along). Just like the vst design of today... no such thing as a standard file, edit, view menu... or any common structures or design patterns we can learn once and know how to use from then on, no matter who made it.
> 
> Not sure this library stuff will have the critical mass to ever have it's own kind of consortium... by then the AIs will be doing all the writing anyhow.


I can’t really agree, but I spent many years with VSL libraries that took far more effort and tweaking to make them sound somewhat convincing. MSS seems pretty easy in comparison.


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## Soundbed

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Many thanks!
> Yea indeed. I got the expanded legatos now and the solos and their mics in there sound promising, but of course it's just legato.


Ok, here are a few examples. Is this what you were hoping to hear?


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## alcorey

Soundbed said:


> Ok, here are a few examples. Is this what you were hoping to hear?
> 
> ... uploading ... uploading ... uploading (got to put the kids to bed now)



Just a quick comment Nathan - If I listen to your video at my normal listening level I can barely hear anything


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## Soundbed

alcorey said:


> Just a quick comment Nathan - If I listen to your video at my normal listening level I can barely hear anything


I’m sorry! I should have known better, and turned up Kontakt. My fault. If it’s unusable I could upload a version with some gain.


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## John Longley

Soundbed said:


> I’m sorry! I should have known better, and turned up Kontakt. My fault. If it’s unusable I could upload a version with some gain.


I’m just on my phone and it’s not an issue.


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## Soundbed

RyanRhea said:


> I got suckered by the sale. Man, what a disappointing library! I don't even know if I really like the sound, just an insanely expensive impulse purchase based on the LASS rep... which I am discovering that I likely wouldn't like very much either, if I had it. I play everything in and even though I have a few other latency-heavy libraries that I am happy to mentally compensate for when playing them, MSS is quite literally _broken_ out of the box in terms of sound and playability. Why? After nearly three years of complaints, confusion and openly expressed instant regret by customers, they still ship it configured this way? I know most of us eventually get it all figured it out (as some of those same regrets are later amended, etc.), but why give it to us ass first like this causing people to feel like they just shat hundreds of dollars out the window for nothing? Not a good first impression.
> 
> It takes considerable research and effort to learn what to turn off/on and where it all is. The manual and website only complicate matters because the authors of the product believe it works fine the way it is, I assume  so you just get led further down the wrong path. I have put together a mongrel template with some non-look ahead "dumb" libraries like ABR1, Symphobia, PS Free Orch, Appassionata and a bunch of other weird combos of things and it just smokes MSS/MSB in both playability and sound. I got the latency part of MSS mostly figured out, but now I can't get the synthy-ness out of the long string patches (which seems to be a result of turning off some of the auto stuff). The tails make the strings sound like an Arturia string patch, lol. There is a super harsh high end in them I am having a hard time taming. The violas and cellos sometimes sound more like a horn.
> 
> I had the exact same default settings issue with Tokyo Scoring Strings (now one of my all time favs!). That thing was unusable out of the box as a player. I had it for weeks thinking it was only ever going to be a mouse-clicker until I cracked it open again and finally figured out how to get rid of the latency and other unnecessary bullshit that was on by default.
> 
> Deep features made for programming are more than welcome... just not all on by default (like a MySpace page with 10 videos all running at the same time. With sound. lol Just because you can, blah blah blah....) Devs have to keep in mind that this is like late '90s website design trends, where any old thing the designer wanted was done with no thought given to a standard (there were none until the W3C came along). Just like the vst design of today... no such thing as a standard file, edit, view menu... or any common structures or design patterns we can learn once and know how to use from then on, no matter who made it.
> 
> Not sure this library stuff will have the critical mass to ever have it's own kind of consortium... by then the AIs will be doing all the writing anyhow.


How about — I’ll share my MSS presets if you share you TSS ones?  

(I still haven’t gotten used to TSS.)


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## alcorey

Soundbed said:


> I’m sorry! I should have known better, and turned up Kontakt. My fault. If it’s unusable I could upload a version with some gain.


Not unusable by any means - one can turn up the volume easily. It's just that when I listen to most videos on my desktop system they fall within a good listening level at the volume I have my monitors set at - (80 to 85 db for mixing purposes) - when I have to turn them up substantially because I can't hear them as well, I often forget to turn the volume down after viewing - and then when viewing or listening to something else I get a "wake up call" because my volume is now too loud


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## Lionel Schmitt

Soundbed said:


> Ok, here are a few examples. Is this what you were hoping to hear?



Many thanks! Right on.
The samples however seem to be as usual on the narrow side...


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## Chocolino

With respect to MSS, I am very much on the fence, although I look out of the corner of my eye at LASS 3. Which they think can be more adapted to other genres, not television or cinematographic, such as Pop, ballads or even Mexican music that tends to use violins a lot?

All the best.


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## Casiquire

Chocolino said:


> With respect to MSS, I am very much on the fence, although I look out of the corner of my eye at LASS 3. Which they think can be more adapted to other genres, not television or cinematographic, such as Pop, ballads or even Mexican music that tends to use violins a lot?
> 
> All the best.


MSS is actually much more neutral in tone in my opinion, and even more feature packed. LASS is still great though!


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## RyanRhea

Soundbed said:


> How about — I’ll share my MSS presets if you share you TSS ones?
> 
> (I still haven’t gotten used to TSS.)


Happy to do that!  I got a lot of great info from you on using MSS... got it somewhat tightened up speed-wise, but still way too synthy/fake of a sound for my tastes overall (_especially_ the close mic), and the dynamics are just horrible for I how play in (which I _guarantee_ none of you have ever seen anything like before, lol). The sus patches are the real issue... just too artificial sounding and slow... the sus dynamics kick in so unpredictably that by the time I want a swell/cresc to come in it's either way too late (or too fast), even with all the advanced crap we paid for in this library turned off (oh, the irony! lol). I appreciate the idea of all that control over dymncs, but all my other libs have a simple, no fuss cc1 control and it just works every time.... no need for the NASA rocket stuff. By contrast, with all those options, I _still_ can't get cc1 dyn working to my taste in MSS.

It's a real shame because I didn't have the money for this right now (again totally my fault), but with no refund option I am beginning to feel the same way as a lot of other folks here about these libraries in general. It's just soooo much money for zero guarantee that you'll even like it or use it (sample sales policies are a joke... I would NEVER buy a guitar sight unseen based only on how someone else played it, for example). But these sample folks are expecting us to do just that very thing (and we do!)... but it's crazy, honestly. Making me rethink who I patronize moving forward. 🧐


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## Soundbed

RyanRhea said:


> It takes considerable research and effort to learn what to turn off/on and where it all is.



For MSS, my thoughts ...

1. The first thing most people from VI-C should turn off is Auto Divisi, imho. Because we simply aren't used to packages with it, and it makes "legato" noodling confusing, at first. I think AB leaves it that way because it shows off one of the most important features of the product. But, it can be confusing if one hasn't used it before (or isn't expecting it, because it's not on the main page).

2. Then, adjust the Legato triggers for Leg, Gliss and Port — to taste, for their controller. Because they trigger port too easily for people with "soft" controllers (favors low velocities).

3. I also start usually with the Snapshot called Unprocessed. This was added later, because there was user feedback. Some people using Kontakt aren't even familiar with Snapshots and might miss this for that reason. Or they might think "Default" is the same as unprocessed when in fact default has more processing.


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## Soundbed

RyanRhea said:


> still way too synthy/fake of a sound for my tastes overall (especially the close mic), and the dynamics are just horrible for I how play in (which I guarantee none of you have ever seen anything like before, lol). The sus patches are the real issue... just too artificial sounding and slow... the sus dynamics kick in so unpredictably that by the time I want a swell/cresc to come in it's either way too late (or too fast), even with all the advanced crap we paid for in this library turned off (oh, the irony! lol). I appreciate the idea of all that control over dymncs, but all my other libs have a simple, no fuss cc1 control and it just works every time.... no need for the NASA rocket stuff. By contrast, with all those options, I still can't get cc1 dyn working to my taste in MSS.


Interesting. Okay I can take these one buy one.

You may have already discovered ALL of this already, but I'll type it out anyway.

So, for the "delay" or lateness, a lot of us turn on / off the Look Ahead while we are playing live vs playing back.

One person (cannot remember who) set up buttons on an external controller. I set it up with an "unused" fader on my keyboard controller. Right click the yellow light, and assign it to something so you can flip it off whenever you play live. If auto divisi is on, there will still be a (much shorter) delay, to account for the time it takes to wait to see if it should play a (single) note transition or a (new) chord by 20, 30 or 40ms (or custom) depending on your setting. Yes, it's complicated but it's also the nature of a computer trying to figure out what you want it to do, in real time.

These "should" make the mod wheel feel more responsive. But there are more controls.

In the main window, the gear under the dynamics opens controls for "dynamic smoothing" which can be turned OFF. Volume range and upper dyn realism are also worth checking out. And of course changing to CC vs CC+Vel might make the mod wheel feel more predictable.

For the synthy/fake sound, I do like the Unprocessed snapshots (removes Kontakt EQ and Kontakt Reverbs, even maybe some IR convolution verbs) and turning OFF "Humanization". 

For the close mics, I "only" use them a bit, when desired, to add detail to a section. And I usually use the soloists for that "instead" of the section's close mics a lot of the time; in other words the soloist fill in the part of the close mic. You can even put them in the same instance of Kontakt, responding to the same midi channel, so the soloist does exactly what the section does — no need for another DAW track. And if they sound "synthy" alone, they might not sound so synthy when all playing as an ensemble (that's what I've found, at least).


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## RyanRhea

Soundbed said:


> Interesting. Okay I can take these one buy one.
> 
> You may have already discovered ALL of this already, but I'll type it out anyway.
> 
> So, for the "delay" or lateness, a lot of us turn on / off the Look Ahead while we are playing live vs playing back.
> 
> One person (cannot remember who) set up buttons on an external controller. I set it up with an "unused" fader on my keyboard controller. Right click the yellow light, and assign it to something so you can flip it off whenever you play live. If auto divisi is on, there will still be a (much shorter) delay, to account for the time it takes to wait to see if it should play a (single) note transition or a (new) chord by 20, 30 or 40ms (or custom) depending on your setting. Yes, it's complicated but it's also the nature of a computer trying to figure out what you want it to do, in real time.
> 
> These "should" make the mod wheel feel more responsive. But there are more controls.
> 
> In the main window, the gear under the dynamics opens controls for "dynamic smoothing" which can be turned OFF. Volume range and upper dyn realism are also worth checking out. And of course changing to CC vs CC+Vel might make the mod wheel feel more predictable.
> 
> For the synthy/fake sound, I do like the Unprocessed snapshots (removes Kontakt EQ and Kontakt Reverbs, even maybe some IR convolution verbs) and turning OFF "Humanization".
> 
> For the close mics, I "only" use them a bit, when desired, to add detail to a section. And I usually use the soloists for that "instead" of the section's close mics a lot of the time; in other words the soloist fill in the part of the close mic. You can even put them in the same instance of Kontakt, responding to the same midi channel, so the soloist does exactly what the section does — no need for another DAW track. And if they sound "synthy" alone, they might not sound so synthy when all playing as an ensemble (that's what I've found, at least).


Ah, thank you kind sir! This has all been a _huge_ help, you have no idea. I feel like I understand the whole thing pretty well, but obviously I do not yet have any deep experience programming with it. There is a whole plethora of things to learn when going there... but that will be for another day.  I really wanted this to be an inspiring, fast, powerful and responsive _player's_ library, but for my style/needs it falls _well_ short of that mark. 

This one's going to be a clicker for me, and I didn't really need another ProjectSAM sweetener type lib, but MSS will do at least that just fine. I love the filter and detune features for sound design and with the natural sound of the library already being so synthy and phasey it makes it a better choice for me than a "real" synth patch (is that an oxymoron?) when I need that sound (particularly with the filter and detune). I tend to prefer stuff that sounds more like acoustic instruments and less synth-heavy (for example, I always choose the Steam-band synths in Albion ONE that sound closest to a natural string patch to begin with).

Some of the ProjectSAM-like stuff MSS has such as the FX, aleatoric patches, etc are quite lovely and will be useful, too. 

Trying to find the silver!!! 🤟🏻‼️


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## Soundbed

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Auto legato is so slow





Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Didn‘t know that you can go in the Kontakt backend and draw your own curve for the auto legato. My curve is now rather steep and very quick.


Ok, awesome! Yeah I was playing around with something tonight and all of a sudden I understood what you meant. Yeah, it's great that you can go into the back end and change the "auto" curves for speed, volume and offset, to make your own "auto" flavor.


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## Chocolino

Chocolino said:


> With respect to MSS, I am very much on the fence, although I look out of the corner of my eye at LASS 3. Which they think can be more adapted to other genres, not television or cinematographic, such as Pop, ballads or even Mexican music that tends to use violins a lot?
> 
> All the best.


Well, in the end, I have jumped the fence and I just bought MSS and Expanded Legato. Now it's time to study the bookstore, get the best out of it and hide my wallet


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## Soundbed

Here is an MSS mockup using the midi and audio @Dan provided in the Pacific User Demos thread for Rachmaninoff. Mix mics, no panning, started with the "unprocessed" snapshots. I changed some of Dan's MIDI for MSS. I also made my own custom "auto" settings for the legato transitions (for better or worse). Threw in a couple portamento transitions, esp when I heard them in the live performances of the piece by live players.

With EQ and tape emulation, to make it a little more "syrup-y" ... :
View attachment Rachmaninoff MSS TAPE EQ.mp3


With no EQ or any effects at all (slightly earlier rendition, so the legato will sound a little different too)... this version is MUCH brighter, to the point of being a tad brittle sounding, at times ... I think there might be a happy medium between this and the above version, over which I may have poured too much "syrup"  ...:
View attachment Rachmaninoff MSS No EQ Louder Legato.mp3


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## John Longley

Soundbed said:


> Here is an MSS mockup using the midi and audio @Dan provided in the Pacific User Demos thread for Rachmaninoff. Mix mics, no panning, started with the "unprocessed" snapshots. I changed some of Dan's MIDI for MSS. I also made my own custom "auto" settings for the legato transitions (for better or worse). Threw in a couple portamento transitions, esp when I heard them in the live performances of the piece by live players.
> 
> With EQ and tape emulation, to make it a little more "syrup-y" ... :
> View attachment Rachmaninoff MSS TAPE EQ.mp3
> 
> 
> With no EQ or any effects at all (slightly earlier rendition, so the legato will sound a little different too)... this version is MUCH brighter, to the point of being a tad brittle sounding, at times ... I think there might be a happy medium between this and the above version, over which I may have poured too much "syrup"  ...:
> View attachment Rachmaninoff MSS No EQ Louder Legato.mp3


I like the brighter one a lot more.


----------

