# Is Apple slowly abandoning its Pro Users?



## midphase (Jun 23, 2010)

Please read this article first:

http://www.cringely.com/2010/06/apple-g ... -part-one/


I have to say that I'm dismayed and disappointed by Apple's lack of a new Mac Pro at the recent WWDC. 

According to Mac Rumors buyer's guide: Days Since Mac Pro Update	477 (Avg = 236) That would be twice as much time going by since the last Mac Pro update than the last time!!!

Final Cut Pro has not received a substantial upgrade in a while, Logic Pro's last upgrade was towards 64bits, but not necessarily to improve or add new features. Apps like Shake have been completely dropped.

What is going on? Will Apple simply give up on its pro user base in favor of selling phones and laptops?

I'm sure we can expect a Mac Pro bump soon enough....but it will feel more like throwing an occasional bone towards us than a proper upgrade. I remember when Apple releasing a new tower was big news, it was the main image on the Apple site and everyone buzzed about how Apple was putting supercomputers in the hands of everyday joes. This wasn't a decade or more ago, this was 5-6 years ago. In such a short period of time, Apple's focus seems to have shifted away from the pro market towards cel phones and content.

Perhaps the best thing for Apple to do would be to open up its OS so that it can be installed on the latest and greatest PC without skipping a beat. Although Steve Jobs doesn't seem to be too concerned about us, I do want access to 12-core machines capable of huge amounts of RAM and other bells and whistles.

At this pace, either we'll all be working on laptops in a couple of years, or else we'll all be using PC's. Either way, the future ain't looking too pretty.

Thoughts?


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## dinerdog (Jun 23, 2010)

The Cult of The Amateur is what it comes down to. I think Apple (Steve that is) is feeling that the more power the common man has, the better. We are but a blip on the radar now that every computer comes pre-installed with enough software to make an indie film in your spare bedroom.

I think they see that as progress and the goal. Obviously art/commerce is undergoing seismic shifts on a monthly basis, but that is not a concern of Apple. It's our job to not get lost in the shuffle, not Apples.

I've said in a few posts, I wish Spectrasonics had bought Logic, then we'd be in good shape. Apple is on a different patch than most of us. We are but a tiny cog in their machine. And I do LOVE all that is Apple, but I agree with you that tweak/improvements are quite slow and don't always reflect what I feel we as pros are asking for or need.

In a weird way it's "power to the people" in a extreme way. Power to ALL of the people. Not our small group of high enders anymore. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.


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## Narval (Jun 23, 2010)

And why does it matter what Steve Jobs says? All he's saying is just advertising. As any other businessman, he is after baiting and fishing more and more costumers, resulting in more profits and extending market influence. Then even more profits.

Steve Jobs is no guru. He's just another salesman. And a good one at that, obviously. But no matter what, he'll never be Gandhi or Lennon. There's no magic in the round glasses. Real revolutions and real power come from a big heart, not from big sales of gadgets and tools.

"Think different"? Ha! That's been long forgotten, if ever meant anything.


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## nikolas (Jun 24, 2010)

Can we PC users post now? :D (Ok... I'll go back to hiding).

BTW, if Steve Jobs was a good salesman Macs would be selling more than PCs are... Unless we are to believe Wall-E that is! :D


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## midphase (Jun 24, 2010)

Steve Jobs is a good enough salesman that Apple's market capitalization is now bigger than Microsoft...that's quite a feat!

My issue however is that things are getting to the point where the iMacs will soon surpass Mac Pros performance specs...except there is still the issue of hard drives and FW800 not quite cutting it when it comes to sample streaming (not to mention lack of PCI slots for those needing to run Pro Tools HD).

It's all a bit disconcerting regarding the way things are looking.


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## nikolas (Jun 24, 2010)

Yeah, I see what you meant. I was joking above.

Maybe it's about time we all consider the problem with contemporary music: Write "good" music and your audience will constantly be reduced... Write "Britney" tunes and everything will be fine.

It makes sense to shift focus to the iPod/Pad/Mac etc instead of the pro series, although it does seem rather silly to abandon completely the pro users (who has always been the core client list of apple). Unless the reason is a rather discouraging one: Macs are no longer the 'best' one can get, so there's no reason to keep trying down that route. Once upon a time the ONLY solution for a good computer was Mac, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore!

Andrew: It would seem that a smaller developer would have trouble coping with multiple issues, but for apple? Come on! The last thing I would expect as an excuse for a company THAT size would be to tell me that "I have too much on my plate". I'm on the edge of NOT accepting such an excuse for comanies the size of EW, so Apple has absolutely NO excuse for that! Honor your clients! Especially those who cherish and support you for decades!


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## Waywyn (Jun 24, 2010)

nikolas @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> Maybe it's about time we all consider the problem with contemporary music: Write "good" music and your audience will constantly be reduced... Write "Britney" tunes and everything will be fine.



Only because Apple is probably changing its hardware plans we/you have a problem to write contemporary music??

Do you really think an amateur and hobby guy can easily create Britney style music or producing a well done pop production?!?


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## Thonex (Jun 24, 2010)

nikolas @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> Andrew: It would seem that a smaller developer would have trouble coping with multiple issues, but for apple? Come on! The last thing I would expect as an excuse for a company THAT size would be to tell me that "I have too much on my plate". I'm on the edge of NOT accepting such an excuse for comanies the size of EW, so Apple has absolutely NO excuse for that! Honor your clients! Especially those who cherish and support you for decades!



Well... when you put it that way.... :mrgreen:


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## nikolas (Jun 24, 2010)

Waywyn @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> nikolas @ Thu Jun 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe it's about time we all consider the problem with contemporary music: Write "good" music and your audience will constantly be reduced... Write "Britney" tunes and everything will be fine.
> ...


This was hardly what I meant.

If you go for the very specific and 'difficult stuff' (listening wise) or the 'expensive' stuff, your client base will be small. If on the other hand you go for the very popular, etc, you can't afford to be AMAZING at that, but your client base will be tons larger. Similarly, if you write easy listening music you will dissapoint the few who enjoy your contemporary concert hall music output, but your fans will grow (like the popularity of apple has expanded tremendously with the release of the iPod and then the iPhone)...

And I hardly think PRODUCING and CREATING Britney style music is easy! On the contrary I love my every day does of Lady Gaga, Britney, etc...


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## Ashermusic (Jun 24, 2010)

Are pro users of their software a huge priority for Apple? Of course not. A good year of sales for all the pro apps combined is a bad couple of days for the iPhone.

But Apple still makes significant money with its Mac Pros and Macbook Pros and keeping their software relevant spurs sales of them.

Understand folks, that the Logic developers for instance are not a bunch of guys in Cupertino who came up through the Apple ranks but Germans who became Apple employees when Apple bought Emagic. And I can tell you for a fact that they continue to work very hard on it.


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## Waywyn (Jun 24, 2010)

So now you know, make sure to switch to Cubase ... you never know if there will be a Logic 10 ... :D


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## José Herring (Jun 24, 2010)

I wonder how many of you that are complaining about new Mac Pro's are really using to full potential your current Mac Pro?

Honestly desktops computers have hardly been a priority with Apple since Steve Jobs came back. And, it's not about the sales or the market share or what have you. He has a particular vision and it's leading him to closed system computing devices that serve a dedicated function. He loves gadgets.

But all that being said it all started with the computer and I honestly think that Apple won't abandon that idea. I remember reading that there is a new protocol being developed by intel that will allow you to connect any computer component with the same cable connection. I think when this get's fully flushed out that computers will take a huge leap forward.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 24, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Jun 23 said:


> I have to say that I'm dismayed and disappointed by Apple's lack of a new Mac Pro at the recent WWDC.
> 
> According to Mac Rumors buyer's guide: Days Since Mac Pro Update	477 (Avg = 236) That would be twice as much time going by since the last Mac Pro update than the last time!!!



The last update took 14 months, right now we're at 16. Twice the average update time, but right now just a couple months longer than the last update. And I question how relevant the average update time is since it seems to include the older G5 powermacs and not just the intel boxes.

I'm bummed that the MP update has taken so long, but some of that is due to Intel. They did release new chips a few months back, but they were in extremely short supply at the time. By now they should be available in more quantity and I do think we'll see an update soon.

I do agree that it is not a good sign that FCS has gone so long without an update and especially that it still isn't 64 bit. Soundtrack Pro in particular is in horrible shape, apple should be ashamed that they released such a buggy app, and doubly ashamed that they have let the bugs go unfixed so long.

But Logic 9 was a big update to the app, lots of fixes and new features. And 64 bit is a major accomplishment, I think there's still only one other audio app that has made the jump. If Apple was going to totally abandon pro users, I don't see why they would have put the work into Logic. Even if Apple hasn't made Logic their highest priority, I'd say it still stacks up pretty well against the competition.



midphase @ Wed Jun 23 said:


> I'm sure we can expect a Mac Pro bump soon enough....but it will feel more like throwing an occasional bone towards us than a proper upgrade. I remember when Apple releasing a new tower was big news, it was the main image on the Apple site and everyone buzzed about how Apple was putting supercomputers in the hands of everyday joes.



What would you like in a tower that you feel they won't deliver? I think the current machines are generally pretty decent in design and features and mainly could use a speed bump to the latest chips and up the other specs. The biggest problem right now is not enough ram slots, especially on the quad, hope that is fixed, but other than that I'd be happy to see the same machine for the most part just faster. And I couldn't care less if a MP update gets a big graphic on the front page of apple's website. It's a niche machine, and "faster" isn't a big surprise for anyone.



midphase @ Wed Jun 23 said:


> Perhaps the best thing for Apple to do would be to open up its OS so that it can be installed on the latest and greatest PC without skipping a beat. Although Steve Jobs doesn't seem to be too concerned about us, I do want access to 12-core machines capable of huge amounts of RAM and other bells and whistles.



Those machines will come, and it should be soon. And while it would be nice for consumers if Apple made the OS available for all hardware, it could potentially put the company out of business (even if everyone bought it, and there's no question that it would be widely pirated). If you really want, I'm sure you're aware that there are ways to run OSX on generic hardware (and it does work well).

As for Cringely, I don't buy much of his post and I generally don't think his track record has been that great. The Jobs video clip is more about businesses running office, I don't think he's talking about audio/video at all. The FCS "dumbing down" thing is just a rumor that I don't believe at all, if anything it's a plan to make the UI more intuitive without losing functionality, which is exactly what they did with Logic 9. The addition of an option to do native AVCHD seems like a great one (stupid that they haven't included that functionality already) and shouldn't be a negative for pros at all. In general, Apple does seem to be making an effort to have their pro apps appeal to semipros as well, but I haven't seen any part of that that makes them worse for pro users.

People have been predicting the death of firewire for years. And apple discontinuing towers? That just seems ridiculous, even though they are a niche part of the product line, it would make no sense since it would drive away so many pro users and kill sales of Logic and FCS. It will be interesting to see what his response is in a month or two when Apple releases an update to the tower and proves his prediction wrong. And in general, while the company has moved into phones and other gadgets, I don't agree that doing so means that they are going to abandon the computer side.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 24, 2010)

midphase @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> My issue however is that things are getting to the point where the iMacs will soon surpass Mac Pros performance specs...



The top iMac is already past the performance of the MP quad. But we're not going to see iMacs catch the current 8 core MPs for a long time, and when they are updated to 12 core in the near future, that gap will widen even more. The current quad has been a terrible deal since the day they released it. On the high end the 8 core is a decent machine, it's just a bummer that they raised the price on it (and not dropped it since then, during the time when faster chips weren't available but the ones they are using got cheaper).



nikolas @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> Unless the reason is a rather discouraging one: Macs are no longer the 'best' one can get, so there's no reason to keep trying down that route. Once upon a time the ONLY solution for a good computer was Mac, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore!



I don't think it's platform specific at all. High end pro machines are just a tiny percentage of sales compared to consumer machines, whether on the mac or PC side. And products that sell more units are going to get more attention than products that sell fewer. Not to mention that many apps that required a "pro" computer a few years ago now can be done pretty easily on a consumer computer, so for many users they can replace their old expensive tower with a cheaper consumer machine (or laptop) and still get a boost in performance. People are buying fewer high end machines because they are less and less necessary, not because vendors are neglecting that part of the market.



josejherring @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> I wonder how many of you that are complaining about new Mac Pro's are really using to full potential your current Mac Pro?



I know I'm not, but ironically it's because Logic itself is unable to take full potential of the hardware. Thankfully, the 64 bit version finally makes it possible to use the ram, but Logic still does an awful job of using all the cores, the app will give CPU errors when only a fraction of the CPU power is being used. I'd be curious if other apps do much better (mac or PC).

If Apple would update Logic to enable it to use all cores, I'd probably have a tough time maxing the machine out. And with what I'm doing, putting my samples on SSD would probably give a bigger boost than going to faster CPUs or more cores.


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## midphase (Jun 24, 2010)

For guys like me who run everything out of the Mac Pro with no external machines speed and efficiency are being taxed on a daily basis.

Also, the idea of going to Intel was supposed to mean faster and easier upgrades not fewer and farther between than in the PPC days!

I don't know a single FCP user who's not complaining about the long render times in FCP, Motion and Compressor. Those guys are really being impacted hard by the lack of newer faster machines.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2010)

Feh. They don't have a new Mac Pro ready. So BFD.

This talk has been going on for years, and then Apple comes out with a new model and it stops for a couple of weeks...until the next update or model or whatever it is comes out.

If they were going to abandon "pro" users, they wouldn't have bought Logic and FCP in the first place - to say nothing of having come out with several major updates in the interim.

("Pro" in quotes because the real "pro" market is wedding videographers, etc.)


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 24, 2010)

Kays, are you running into CPU errors in Logic? What sorts of things are you running that tax the system the most? When you are maxed out, what does Activity Monitor show for Logic's CPU use (and for the 32 bit bridge if it's running)?

It may depend on specifically what you're running, but I suspect that Logic isn't using the CPUs that well. Meaning that you'd probably see a much bigger boost from an optimized Logic update than from a newer mac.

And at this point, it looks like Logic is limited to using 8 cores, so until the software is updated, running on a 12 core machine may not improve performance at all. Even now, an eight core machine barely outperforms a fast quad i7. Of course, I still want to see a MP update ASAP.

I'd be curious how well FCS is optimized for multiple cores - based on what I've seen in Logic, and the fact that FCS still is only 32 bit, I have low expectations.


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## Narval (Jun 24, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> If they were going to abandon "pro" users, they wouldn't have bought Logic and FCP in the first place - to say nothing of having come out with several major updates in the interim.
> 
> ("Pro" in quotes because the real "pro" market is wedding videographers, etc.)


Next MacPro upgrade: MacWeddingBro.
Slogan: "A logic final cut for everyone."


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 24, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> This talk has been going on for years, and then Apple comes out with a new model and it stops for a couple of weeks...until the next update or model or whatever it is comes out.



Except that right now we're at probably the longest gap between updates ever for this model. And the faster chips have been available for a while. There are definitely people who whine even when Apple is shipping the fastest hardware available, but that's definitely not the case right now.



> If they were going to abandon "pro" users, they wouldn't have bought Logic and FCP in the first place - to say nothing of having come out with several major updates in the interim.



And yet Apple has bought apps like Shake and then discontinued them. Personally I get the impression that Apple wants to keep updating these apps, at least for now, but wants to keep the resources working on them to the minimum they can get away with. Shame since they could probably take a major bite out of avid/digidesign if they made it a priority. It also sounds like the teams working on FCS and Logic tend to get pulled into working on things like GB and iMovie. I will say I'm more optimistic now that they've shipped a 64 bit version of Logic, that's one hurdle they are now past so they can focus on other things.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2010)

To quote myself: feh.

And this is by no means the longest gap in updates! Their laptops were essentially the same for about five years. Same with the PowerPC G5s.

I'm far more concerned about developers catching up with the hardware. My 2-year-old 8 x 2.8GHz still has oodles of power left over not being tapped.

The reason that's significant is that until about five years ago, a 2-year-old computer struggled to keep up with all the current software. I used to upgrade machines every couple of years because of that. This is the first time in the history of the digital revolution that the hardware has been ahead of the music software we use.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 24, 2010)

Look at the dates. The G5 towers never went more than a year without an update, often two updates within a year.

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro

I do agree that the software isn't keeping up with the hardware. Are there any mac audio apps that really use all cores (including potentially using HT cores, which Logic can do)?

And what about on the PC side?


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## José Herring (Jun 24, 2010)

On the PC side the latest Cubase update took a hugh stride in multicore performance. On a benchmark I just read it was claimed that it is 45% more efficient than the previous version. Others have said that's more like 25% or so. But in my experience the same project that was taking about 30% of my computer resources is now down to about 9%. Not as much as either claim but I must say that I'm plenty pleased with this.

Personally I think that a radical new way of doing music on computers should be on the horizon and just a mere update of existing machines will do very little for us. So I'm not worried about new hardware just yet and I do think that Apple will be on the cutting edge of a new type of desktop computing experience for high end users. I mean in real life would you actually pay for more than 8 (16 virtual cores) if that means that you'll be plunking down an additional $5000 for slightly better performance? So I think it will be better for everybody if they just wait it out and come up with a new kind of machine. I mean heck it's possible now to get rid of HD all together and use SSD cards in a pcie slot. Just think if they are able to incorporate that technology into a motherboard and all future MacPro come with 2 terrabytes of permanent storage directly integrated into the motherboard or on a standard Pcie slot. That's something I would pay for.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks for the info. On the PC side, when a session starts giving errors saying it's out of CPU, how much % of total is typically being used? Does it max out at 85% or 40%?

I'm also curious how it is with DP or Cubase on the mac. An 8 core mac (with HT) can go up to 1600% total (which I have seen close to with some other non-audio apps), but Logic only gets up to about 400% meaning only about a quarter of available CPU power is being used. Oddly, on an i7, I've seen higher % numbers out of the maximum 800%.


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## José Herring (Jun 24, 2010)

Can only comment on the PC side. Cubase even older versions is pretty efficient and since switching to my i7 quad core I haven't had any problems running out of CPU even on intense mixes with several tracks and tons of plugins. It just kind of gets to a certain point and then no matter what you through at it it just kind of stays at that point kind of like it has no problems multitasking. 

In my old P4 days I never got a message that it was out of CPU it would just max out and start garbling audio at about 80% cpu usage. Then if I did an offline bounce it would always bounce just perfectly.


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## midphase (Jun 24, 2010)

Guys...all you all who run a Mac Pro alongside a small army of PC's are probably not dealing with CPU stuff as much since your Mac probably does very little relatively speaking.

Try running everything....I mean EVERYTHING out of a single Mac Pro and you might have a different perspective.

(hell...I know guys who ever offload their Quicktime playback to another machine....no shit!)


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## midphase (Jun 24, 2010)

Just to clarify things up a bit....I'm in the market for a new Mac Pro....I was in the market for a new Mac Pro last November...but everyone said wait until Mac World announcements...which came and went with no mention of new Mac Pros (despite Intel having released new chips). Then someone said wait until NAMM...nothing....wait until the end of the month...nothing, wait until NAB...nothing....wait until WWDC....nothing.

So here we are...going into July and still no hint of anything (even from the rumor sites which are generally a couple of weeks ahead of announcements). Kinda stinks a bit.

And no...I'm not suggesting that Apple is abandoning its pro apps and users...but I am suggesting that we have become the least important group for them (with AT&T customers being #1).


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## Mike Greene (Jun 24, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> I'm far more concerned about developers catching up with the hardware. My 2-year-old 8 x 2.8GHz still has oodles of power left over not being tapped.


Exactly. I don't think I need a more powerful computer so much as I (they) need to figure out how to get all the cores and extra memory working, rather than idling.

I have yet to see a "You don't have enough cores!" message. And whenever I see a "You don't have enough memory!" message, it's never because I'm using close to 16 GB. It's always because I'm using close to 3 GB in Logic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 24, 2010)

Kays, there are two things in life that are impossible to predict: the stock market and when Apple is going to come out with a new machine (although you'd do well to watch what I buy and sell and then do the opposite).

I once waited nine months for Apple to come out with new Macs. They did...and the difference was that it was a dual 2.5GHz G5 instead of a dual 2.0.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 25, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Thu Jun 24 said:


> I have yet to see a "You don't have enough cores!" message. And whenever I see a "You don't have enough memory!" message, it's never because I'm using close to 16 GB. It's always because I'm using close to 3 GB in Logic.



Have you tried running Logic in 64 bit? Most of the plugins that use the most memory are 64 bit at this point - vienna, spectrasonics, kontakt. The only one I have that's a real hog that is still 32 bit is PLAY (which does work around the memory limitation to some degree but not completely, and still has memory issues). Totally agree about optimization for cores, once Logic and the plugs went 64 bit, memory can generally be mostly used but entire cores are just sitting there doing nothing.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 25, 2010)

BTW, for those of you who do not know this:

K4's memory server "reserves" your unused RAM to a degree leaving Play 2 little room to breathe so it is advisable to load your Play instances first if you are using them in the same host. 

Logic projects will load the software instruments in the order number of the instrument i.e Instrument 1, then instrument 2, then instrument 3, etc. regardless of where they are in the track list in the Arrange window. I don't know how the other DAWS do it but it would not surprise me if it was similar.

BTW, in the interests of full disclosure, I have entered into a non-official relationship with East West. I promise you all however, that I will never write anything about them or their libraries that I do not believe to be 100% true and fair.


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## Narval (Jun 25, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Fri Jun 25 said:


> BTW, for those of you who do not know this:
> 
> K4's memory server "reserves" your unused RAM to a degree leaving Play 2 little room to breathe so it is advisable to load your Play instances first if you are using them in the same host.


Nice tip. Tipping my hat to you Sir!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2010)

So is Kontakt 3.5 a better one to use from that standpoint, Jay?

That sounds like a predatory memory management system, actually. I'm surprised OS X allows it.


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## JohnG (Jun 25, 2010)

Hi guys,

Apple's 3Q 2010 Revenue Breakdown in billions, and percent of total revenues:

iPads: $1.9 13%

iPods: $1.6 10%

Computers: $3.9 25%

iPhone: $5.6 36%

iTunes: $1.2 8%

Peripherals: $0.5 3%

Software: $0.6 4%

It looks as though computers continue to be mighty important for Apple, with 25% of revenue coming from them. Even though computer hardware margins are not what, say, iTunes margins probably are, they no doubt remain an important contributor. Plus, Apple has steadfastly resisted the temptation to play in the ultra-bargain computer region, which makes me doubt that they are abandoning pro users.

On a slightly different note it is tempting, judging by this information alone, to speculate that a niche product like pro music software would be fairly minimal in terms of priority for Apple. I'd hasten to say, however, that the frequency lately of Logic updates and improvements offers a pretty robust rebuttal to that hypothesis, so hopefully they are here to stay and won't strand anyone.

Source: http://bullcross.blogspot.com/2010/06/a ... up-to.html


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2010)

Well, if you wanted to take the position that I disagree with, you could break down the computer revenue further. My hunch is that iMacs and laptops sell at a much faster clip, especially now that the Mac Pros are priced in the stratosphere because of those really expensive chips they're using.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2010)

Also, I'm not sure that iTunes has a high profit margin. My understanding is that its sole purpose is to sell iPods (and now iPhones and iPads).


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## rgames (Jun 25, 2010)

Confused here...

Apple doesn't make hardware - they re-brand hardware from others. Nowadays that's the same hardware the PC world uses.

So you should be able to just get the hardware and install the Mac OS, IF it supports the newer hardware.

So the issue seems to be whether or not the Mac OS supports the newer hardware - that's a software update issue, not a hardware issue.

rgames


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 25, 2010)

There's no question that the mac pros are a tiny fraction of their computer sales compared with laptops and imac. But the MP is the mac that requires the least amount of R&D - they keep using the same tower design for the most part, and they can usually go through a couple CPU upgrades without having to change the motherboard.

The OS needs to be there for all the other machines, and the basic mac specific hardware stuff as well. So the amount of additional work they have to do to sell a tower is relatively low. With a high profit margin, they don't need to sell that many to make it worth continuing the model. Not to mention that someone who runs a MP to do their work is probably more likely to get a mac for at home, family members, etc. There's a halo effect, people often like to stick with the same platform when they can instead of having different ones for work and home.

Now if Apple would finally get a clue and dump the mini for an affordable, basic tower (iMac minus the screen)...



rgames @ Fri Jun 25 said:


> Apple doesn't make hardware - they re-brand hardware from others. Nowadays that's the same hardware the PC world uses.



While Apple farms out much of their manufacturing, they do the designs themselves and you can't buy that same hardware from anywhere else. And while most of the components are the same, there are some minor differences such that you can't install OSX on a PC without hacking it a bit.

I would guess that the latest release of OSX supports the new chips just fine (and I bet there are hackintoshes doing it already), probably not a software issue unless the next hardware update adds unexpected new features.


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## rgames (Jun 25, 2010)

The only part they might have a hand in is the motherboard - but why? Since they're using standard components, they can't be that different. There's no way it makes business sense to develop their own motherboard - they must be buying it from someone (my guess is Intel) like they buy all their other hardware components.

Even if it is a proprietary motherboard design, it still seems like you should be able to buy some components and get the Mac OS running on it without much trouble. Unless Apple specifically mods the motherboard and OS to prevent folks from doing that. Dunno - just thinking out loud...

rgames


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## rgames (Jun 25, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 25 said:


> Also, I'm not sure that iTunes has a high profit margin. My understanding is that its sole purpose is to sell iPods (and now iPhones and iPads).



That's my understanding, too. I've always heard that iTunes is barely break-even for them.

So when musicians complain about the fact that they sell a $10 CD and get less than $1 for it, Apple seems to bring that statement up.

PS - accidentally hit "report" instead of "quote" when responding. Hope it doesn't get you in too much trouble 

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2010)

> Apple doesn't make hardware - they re-brand hardware from others. Nowadays that's the same hardware the PC world uses



Sure they make hardware. They don't manufacture the individual boards and don't own all the individual component manufacturers for everything in a Mac Pro, but they order custom parts just like a car company does.

And the whole design of the Mac Pro is 100% theirs, to say nothing of the firmware to control the hardware. They don't use BIOS, for example.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 25, 2010)

rgames @ Fri Jun 25 said:


> The only part they might have a hand in is the motherboard - but why? Since they're using standard components, they can't be that different. There's no way it makes business sense to develop their own motherboard - they must be buying it from someone (my guess is Intel) like they buy all their other hardware components.



I'm sure the differences in the mobo are probably minor, but they are different. In the case of a desktop, I wouldn't be surprised if they start with a standard design from intel and tweak it. In the case of a laptop or iMac they design the motherboard so they can optimize miniaturization. When apple is selling close to four billion dollars worth of computers in a quarter, having custom mobo designs isn't that big a cost.



> Even if it is a proprietary motherboard design, it still seems like you should be able to buy some components and get the Mac OS running on it without much trouble. Unless Apple specifically mods the motherboard and OS to prevent folks from doing that. Dunno - just thinking out loud...



That's exactly what Apple does, some of the things that make the hardware unique are custom bios type things that basically tell the OS that it's Apple hardware. People have hacked around that with software mods so trying to replicate the exact apple hardware isn't necessary.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 25, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Fri Jun 25 said:


> Have you tried running Logic in 64 bit?


I'd like to, but I've been under the (possibly mistaken) impression that if I'm 64 bit, then in order to use the stuff that's still 32 bit, I'd have to do some extra stuff, like some sort of bridge or something.

My experience with bridges or workarounds have always been bad. Once bitten, twice shy. No make that twice bitten . . . no, thrice bitten . . . no, four . . . anyway, I've had lots of bad experiences. So I'm waiting until all my plugs are 64 bit and it's no muss - no fuss.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 25, 2010)

There is a 32 bit bridge, but it doesn't require doing anything extra on the part of the user. And you can switch sessions back and forth between 64 and 32 without any compatibility issues, so there's no risk in trying it out. You do have to click an extra time to show 32 bit plugin windows which is annoying, but I'm willing to deal with a bit of annoying if it allows me to use a lot more ram.

I'd definitely recommend trying out a session or two running 64 bit, it requires nothing more than clicking one box and restarting Logic. And if the bridge gives you problems you just click the box back and restart again and you're right back in 32 bit.

It may not improve anything for you, but it's quick and simple enough to try that I'd definitely recommend firing it up to see if it makes anything better. Especially if you are using any plugs that have 64 bit versions available (which at this point includes Kontakt 4.1, vienna, and all the spectrasonics stuff).

More info here: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3989


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm not a huge fan of the 32-bit bridge. It crashes too much, and opening the windows is an extra step.

VE Pro for me.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 25, 2010)

Thanks Mike. That does sound painless enough to try, so I'll give it a shot. It's Omnisphere and Trillian that are my main problems, by the way, and those are 64 bit (I think,) so here's hoping it works.

Nick's crashes do worry me, though. But we'll see. Heck, maybe I'll try out VE Pro. About time I did, I suppose.


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## rgames (Jun 25, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 25 said:


> Sure they make hardware. They don't manufacture the individual boards and don't own all the individual component manufacturers for everything in a Mac Pro, but they order custom parts just like a car company does.
> 
> And the whole design of the Mac Pro is 100% theirs, to say nothing of the firmware to control the hardware. They don't use BIOS, for example.



But that's exactly what Dell and Gateway and hundreds of other PC manufacturers do. They just collect components from hardware designers and assemble them into an OEM product. The Apple OS uses BIOS, they just call it a part of the OS.

Again, it seems the upgrade issue one of software, not hardware.

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 26, 2010)

Interesting. Thanks C M.


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