# String libraries: Do you prefer having true recordings of violins 1 + 2? (Tokyo Scoring Strings pre-discussion)



## Andrew Aversa (Dec 13, 2020)

A common technique for string libraries is to use offline repitching/EQ and the RR pool to generate a set of second violins samples, which saves a lot of recording time. This time can then be spent on recording other content.

I'm curious to hear opinions on what you value most: taking the time + disk space to record true second violins or putting that toward some other section, soloist, articulation, etc.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume a core of articulations is already being captured: sustains (vib + nonvib), legato, portamento, spiccato, staccato, marcato, pizzicato, tremolo.

Feel free to chime in with an explanation for your opinion!


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## ysnyvz (Dec 13, 2020)

They are equally important imho. My two favourite string libraries are SSP and CSS. Because they both have good amount articulations, dynamic layers and round robins across 5 sections and they are consistently sampled with great sound. So I think you have though competition. Capturing a good sound for basic articulations is not enough anymore, you need to bring something special to the market.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Dec 13, 2020)

That's a tough one. It's nice having real second violins, but section leaders and con sordino samples are also great. I think with the right other content included, lacking real second violins isn't the end of the world.

Other things I like that come to mind that aren't sampled very often are true diminuendos and other real performed note endings (which generally sound better than faking it with automation), or different sets of legato transitions geared toward different types of lines (slower and more romantic, faster and more agile, etc).


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 13, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> A common technique for string libraries is to use offline repitching/EQ and the RR pool to generate a set of second violins samples, which saves a lot of recording time. This time can then be spent on recording other content.
> 
> I'm curious to hear opinions on what you value most: taking the time + disk space to record true second violins or putting that toward some other section, soloist, articulation, etc.
> 
> ...


I just say one word. Authenticity.
You get it.

Anything new comin’ up?


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## RonOrchComp (Dec 13, 2020)

Libraries without true second violins are useless, AFAIC. If I want them playing in octaves, then in unison, I cant do that. Sure, I can pitch 2 steps (sometimes needs to be 3), but do I want to a) muk up the sound - only a little maybe - but still a little, and b) spend the time doing it? No.


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## ansthenia (Dec 13, 2020)

A true 2nd violin section is very important to me. In fact, I typically won't bother looking into any string library that doesn't have one.


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## Scalms (Dec 13, 2020)

Man tough call! can't we get it all, i can't choose, lol

Honestly I would like to see more dynamic layers and round robins, especially more vibrato layers that we can crossfade between with slight variation between them. Maybe with something like 5 dynamic layers with 5 vibrato layers both increasing as you head towards FF. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud now.

But I also can't stand having "fake' recordings, where something is EQ to make a low dynamic layer, for example. But that's just me, and I can live with it.

Whole ensemble recording together isn't a must. All the current libraries I have that have whole ensembles recorded together at one time never sound that great to me. I think it has to be done perfect, with the best engineers to get it sounding better than just orchestrating the parts together.

Simulated sordino I think sounds pretty awful, but maybe that's just because of subconscious bias, but real sordino's are great and less prevalent.

Another thing I would like to see in strings libraries are a huge arrangement of shorts. Great spiccatos are everywhere, but great staccatos are hard to come by, including various lengths. Detache and Portato is fantastic to play in a library, but often very hard to come by too, unless you buy a super expensive library.

Anyway some of my thoughts, but i always add my disclaimer that I am a hobbyist so take my opinion with a grain of salt.


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## Beans (Dec 13, 2020)

If it came between choosing a proper V2 and more techniques, I want more techniques with the same players and hall instead of trying to match them from different libraries. I'm awful at that.


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## CT (Dec 13, 2020)

Considering the amount of extant string libraries and their own set of strengths and weaknesses, I think the biggest priority with anything new for me would be feeling like there aren't any corners cut/compromises made at all, whether in the instruments/sections included, the playing techniques, or the detail of the sampling itself. 

I know that's a useless answer to a question that wouldn't be asked in the first place if it could be avoided, but it's honestly how I feel and I have to imagine I'm not alone. There's a lot of stuff out there. How is something new going to distinguish itself as a truly more powerful set of tools?


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## AllanH (Dec 13, 2020)

My preference would be more dynamic layers at the expense of a recorded V2 section, if I had to make a trade-off. 

But, I would encourage you to do all the pre-processing (EQ, panning, etc.) and include a properly-panned V2-section in the product and not just leave the V1-section "in place" or "centered". My experience with panning sections into their proper place using my DAW is that it somehow does not sound quite right. I think there is more to it that using a common panning power law.


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## jbuhler (Dec 13, 2020)

In terms of recording, I think the full ensemble isn’t needed unless that is the focus of the library. A set of ensemble patches is more useful for writing if some of the sustains at least have poly legato. For the rest, I like having separate second violins, at least in part because it gives a different performance you can draw on if the first violin patch isn’t working for some reason. Libraries recorded in situ are also usually easier for me to work with. But I also like having extended articulations. So that’s a tough call. Real Sordinos are nice and faking them with EQ can also be nice (though I think it’s a very different sound). More dynamic layers, in general. I think you want at least three for longs, more for shorts, unless you are doing something like a sul tasto library. Also round robins for legato intervals and both bowed and fingered transitions. And more short articulations, which have not been sampled with the same variety as is available in the longs. Working through the list you realize why every string library is limited, all-purpose libraries will necessarily involve tradoffs that users will characterize as cutting corners (and they’ll complain about the price if you don’t economize), and why one can never have too many string libraries.


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## ShidoStrife (Dec 13, 2020)

I'll take more techniques over true V2, but it has to be offline processed. Not sure if it's ethical to name, but there was a library I was interested in that has V2 patches but they're really V1 with different impulse response. No repitching or RR tricks at all so you end up with terrible phasing when playing in unison. Very useless.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Dec 13, 2020)

Another place where it'd make sense to skip the usual approach IMO: portamento. Sampled portamento usually sounds horribly fake when the interval is more than a few semitones, because it ends up crossfading awkwardly from the transition played on one string to a sustain played on a different one. Might be a nice place to substitute in some more characterful romantic slur transitions instead?


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## karender (Dec 13, 2020)

All of them! Like Audibro's MSS. There are even more articulations like sul pont trem that didn't listed here. Also as far as i know, there are 4 dynamic layers. We didn't hear anything yet but i think all the new,modern libraries should look like this on the paper. On the other hand sound is very important but it's subjective. That's why we need more libraries in this kind of detail.


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## Kent (Dec 13, 2020)

I’d rather have more of less than less of more.


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## muziksculp (Dec 13, 2020)

Hi Andrew,

If you are planning to develop a Strings Library here are some of my thoughts about it.

Good luck with it. Hope this is helpful.

First, I don't feel good buying a Strings library, that offers any make believe strings articulations or sections, i.e. Emulated 2nd Violins, or Emulated Sordinos, or Emulated Vibratos, or ... etc.

Plus, it is not going to bring anything special to what's already available, so surely no compromises, it's nearly 2021, not 2002.

Second, Here are some of *My priorities/wishes to have in a Strings Library :*

* Beautiful/Great Timbre. Without it, Strings mean nothing to me. This is #1.

* Very smooth, and Expressive Legato functionality, without convoluted workflow with respect to DAW negative delay-track time settings.

* Lots of Short Articulation options, and if possible a way to modulate the sound of the attack portion of the shorts, to make them sound more animated, colorful and realistic.

* Having a handy ADSR control faders on the GUI is something many developers seem to omit, I feel it is a very important detail to have access to.

* Controllable Vibrato. This is a tough one I know, but at least a way to X-fade between vibrato and non-vibrato is a minimum requirement. Vibrato depth, and speed is another story.

* Dynamics, a good amount of Dynamic layers, that make the instruments sound as real as possible, and make them very realistic when played in real time.

* Good, clean and uncluttered GUI design, with flexible articulation switching/customization features. i.e. CSS.

* More emphasis on the core/most used articulations, rather than stuffing it with rarely used exotic articulations, i.e. Bartok Snaps, Rarely used Dynamics i.e. Disco Falls  ...etc.

* Continued Support, and Updates to improve, and add more to a Strings Library is something that encourages me to buy it. i.e. Strezov-Sampling's Afflatus Strings. It makes the library a great investment, and enhances the developer's brand loyalty, and popularity factors.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 13, 2020)

Great thoughts so far! My instinct was that a true second violin section is more useful and I'm glad that appears to be the consensus.

No reason at all for asking about this, of course.


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## Wunderhorn (Dec 13, 2020)

I can't emphasize enough the importance of dynamics. So many libraries I use don't go to all the way to fff or either ppp which is cumbersome because then a lot of patch-working between different libraries has to happen.


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## Jdiggity1 (Dec 13, 2020)

Just don't fall for the prevalent trap of skimping out on the space (and players) to save some bucks. It will end up being unremarkable no matter how much content you record.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 13, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> I can't emphasize enough the importance of dynamics. So many libraries I use don't go to all the way to fff or either ppp which is cumbersome because then a lot of patch-working between different libraries has to happen.



Where do you place that in the priority list above, assuming a baseline of 3 dynamics for sustains and 5 for shorts? For example, not recording second violins as a separate section, but including another dynamic or two for all articulations.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 13, 2020)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Just don't fall for the prevalent trap of skimping out on the space (and players) to save some bucks. It will end up being unremarkable no matter how much content you record.



If I were, hypothetically, planning a library - which I'm totally not - I would settle only for world-class players in a world-class studio and a world-class engineer, that has never been sampled before. Hypothetically.


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## RonOrchComp (Dec 13, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> No reason at all for asking about this, of course.



No, of course not.



Andrew Aversa said:


> If I were, hypothetically, planning a library - which I'm totally not -



Which means, of course, you totally are.


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## Ihnoc (Dec 13, 2020)

I _personally_ never use whole ensemble patches and would rather have second violins over that.

Been pretty convinced in filters for sordino, as long as they are bespoke per section and I like that approach also means you can have _all_ the articulations in sordino. CSS, Hollywood and Berlin do this and I personally think it is fine. I know you do this in Bravura and I think it is quite effective, thought harder with brass than strings.

I certainly have an appetite for legato transitions and different vibrato levels.

But there is one thing that drives me nuts in every library - articulation consistency. Accent sustains on all but the basses, sfz on all but the celli, marcato on all but flute 2 etc. I really value the consistency between articulations across a library when they are physically possible to play and you always end up finding a gap filler. Maybe lose the col legno con tratto and record that marcato for the violas? Two peneth.


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## CT (Dec 13, 2020)

To be more practical with my thoughts....

I can do without stuff like sul tasto, sul pont, flautando... it's just not all that commonly useful enough to me to warrant taking time away from getting more detail in the fundamental techniques. If anything, just integrate a bit of the sul tasto/flautando character into the lower dynamics of your normal sustains. That should really be enough for most purposes and is more representative of how players would actually use those bowings, though I know that's kind of an old fashioned feeling and that many want these articulations in the spotlight. Con sordino should be real and given proper attention though with as many articulations as possible.

Regarding dynamics: more is more, but if it requires heavy pitch correction and phase aligning to get them to crossfade well, then suddenly less is more because those processes sound awful. Also, I implore you... don't do three dynamic sustains and five for shorts as mentioned above. It is such a pain to have different parts of a library exist within different dynamic spectrums. At least ensure that the top and bottom are equivalent if you're gonna do that, instead of having longs up to f and shorts going all the way to fff.

Get the right articulations (sustains, tremolo and trills (the larger the better), harmonics, and shorts (spiccato/staccato/detache/marcato plus pizzicato)), with as much of that duplicated with real muted variants as is reasonable, with at least four dynamics globally (except for harmonics probably), and get it all programmed right and naturally balanced.

That this should all be done for every real section of the string orchestra, with as skilled a group as possible, in a good space with clean and unhyped recordings, is all a given. Divisi capability would be warmly welcome but it has to be secondary I suppose. After these concerns, value drops rapidly.

Oh, regarding vibrato... it's tempting to me but maybe not practical to suggest forgoing non-vibrato samples entirely. If the transition isn't clean though it's almost useless to have them. Not sure about this, and I go back and forth in my own hypothetical string library plans regarding the vibrato problem. I do know that getting the right vibrato character per dynamic is important. As in, your normal vibrato amount should be a bit less intense at pp than it will be at ff, so there is a bit of variation already naturally tied to dynamics.

I'm also not totally convinced legato has to be sampled, or that it can't at least be partly modeled, but I know you disagree on that.

I guess this isn't exactly "practical" though, just a laundry list of how to do my ideal string library....


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 13, 2020)

All great comments above. Can you tell we ALL think deeply about our PERFECT string library?

For me - if the tone/timbre doesn't move me - it won't move me to write the best music. It starts and stops there for me. ONCE and only once someone gets that right then all the comments above for sure apply. Avoid 'me too' - please give us something innovative. Make us look good for our clients and we'll all line up to send our money.


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## Toecutter (Dec 13, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> If I were, hypothetically, planning a library - which I'm totally not - I would settle only for world-class players in a world-class studio and a world-class engineer, that has never been sampled before. Hypothetically.


Since we are talking about world-class players, world class studio and world class engineer, don't cut corners that will haunt you later. We are tired of half-assed libraries... true recording of second violins, more dynamics, more RRs, do it right the first time. Hypothetically.


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## dariusofwest (Dec 13, 2020)

I'd prefer 2nd Violins as well. Also, would love to have some pre-recorded crescendos too. :D


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## Wunderhorn (Dec 13, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Where do you place that in the priority list above, assuming a baseline of 3 dynamics for sustains and 5 for shorts? For example, not recording second violins as a separate section, but including another dynamic or two for all articulations.



TBH - I would like to have small section recordings in the strings, so they don't stack up to be too unrealistically in number of players when composing divisi parts (that being short of recording actually divisi like LASS). Then for a thicker unison I layer them if there is another section recorded or then there should be a larger section recording for unison lines.

This can't really be prioritized above or below dynamics because we already have many wonderful string libraries out there. If you want to create another library to compete then it would have to do a lot and effort can't be spared. It will need to have it all I am afraid. Dynamics, different section sizes and much more. Yes, as muziksculp said, this isn't 2002 anymore with only EWQLSO to compete with...

By saying 3 dynamics for sustains I assume you mean dynamic layers - I think this is not enough. For ppp the bowing needs to slowed down as well to the extreme (think about the end of Mahler's 9th) - I don't think that can be contained well enough in 3 layers only.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 13, 2020)

Toecutter said:


> Since we are talking about world-class players, world class studio and world class engineer, don't cut corners that will haunt you later. We are tired of half-assed libraries... true recording of second violins, more dynamics, more RRs, do it right the first time. Hypothetically.



Sure; do keep in mind though that there are practical limits to any project. Given X studio days or Y dollars, you have to decide on a list of priorities. It's not possible to do everything. Spitfire, Realitone, Musical Sampling, Performance Samples; all make their decisions on a per-library basis on what matters more, and what matters less. Sometimes the tradeoff is smaller section sizes or fewer articulations, other times it's no recorded legato, etc.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 13, 2020)

We made it to page two without anyone mentioning chromatic sampling instead of whole tone sampling.


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## CT (Dec 13, 2020)

I was close....


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## Wunderhorn (Dec 13, 2020)

Trash Panda said:


> We made it to page two without anyone mentioning chromatic sampling instead of whole tone sampling.



Make that two versions of the library:

1) Whole tone sampled in 16bit for sketching/composing
2) Chromatically sampled in 24bit for rendering


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## dzilizzi (Dec 13, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> If I were, hypothetically, planning a library - which I'm totally not - I would settle only for world-class players in a world-class studio and a world-class engineer, that has never been sampled before. Hypothetically.


Truthfully, I'm only a hobbyist, and not very good at this orchestral stuff, but what usually gets me to buy is the sound of the space. If you get a great sounding space that hasn't been used by 10 other libraries, I'd probably get it.


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## CT (Dec 13, 2020)

Wunderhorn said:


> Make that two versions of the library:
> 
> 1) Whole tone sampled in 16bit for sketching/composing
> 2) Chromatically sampled in 24bit for rendering



Come on, why not 32bit? Make sure it's futureproof.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 13, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Come on, why not 32bit? Make sure it's futureproof.


Shouldn't it be 96bit then?


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 13, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> If I were, hypothetically, planning a library - which I'm totally not - I would settle only for world-class players in a world-class studio and a world-class engineer, that has never been sampled before. Hypothetically.


Well, in that case I better off with the Berlin Phil, Vienna Phil, Chicago Symphony Orchestra or the Budapest Symphony Orchestra, as of that matter.

I feel better, rather simple, to convince people, than a machine. Well, a software.


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 13, 2020)

But yea, dynamic layers MUST be one of the core factors, when sampling. Oh I haven’t heard anyone mention this yet, but it must be CPU friendly. Not Ram hungry.


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## constaneum (Dec 13, 2020)

I post here instead since the poll doesn't allow more than 1 selection. For me, the main buying factor will be these.

1. True recording of 2nd violin

2. The tone of the strings (i'm referencing from Japanese game and anime music which you always hear that signature strings sound which sounds different from the lush Hollywood strings). A bit near to Berlin Strings sound. I dont need another big or huge epic sounding strings which lots of people are sampling base on such setup.

3. Different types of legato with various agility and at least 2 types of note attacks catered for (slow attack, fast/instance attack). lots of strings libraries are suffering from this note attack. Even though they cater for slow, medium and fast, that's only on the legato note transition. They've forgotten about the start of the note. Imagine writing fast legato transition piece but the start of the note sounds like it's suffering from a bit sluggish build up crescendo effect. at least 2 note attack types. For note attack of normal or fast, i'll prefer the normal to be recorded with non-vibrato to vibrato transition for realistic sounding if vibrato option isn't catered for (if you only provide ON/OFF vibrato without ability to control its intensity). Fast note attack can straight away start with vibrato.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 13, 2020)

Extra, less common Artics in an expansion pack/s is a pretty reasonable route imo. Solves a lot of issues.


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## bozmillar (Dec 13, 2020)

If you can make a single violins section sound like 2, then I see no reason not to do it. It's hard to say without actually hearing it though. I've heard sample libraries that have all the specs and don't sound great, and libraries that don't have all the specs that do sound great.

Really, I just prefer a library that sounds good and doesn't make me feel like I have to fight it. if you can do that with a single sample, I'd take it.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 13, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Sure; do keep in mind though that there are practical limits to any project. Given X studio days or Y dollars, you have to decide on a list of priorities. It's not possible to do everything. Spitfire, Realitone, Musical Sampling, Performance Samples; all make their decisions on a per-library basis on what matters more, and what matters less. Sometimes the tradeoff is smaller section sizes or fewer articulations, other times it's no recorded legato, etc.


In my experience the most successful string libraries rather have smaller sections with SCS on the extreme side and to my taste one of the best. So going with smaller sizes isn't necessary a trade of but might be even an advantage. And cuts costs.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 13, 2020)

Another vote for 2nd Vlns here.

What I don’t understand about most string libraries is the complete lack of detache‘ samples - of various lengths. Staccato and Spiccato seem to be the only short articulations available in most libraries. This cripples the ability for basic expression in string writing. Just the same as if there were no staccatos.

Early libraries such as VSL had them but at some point they seemed vanish from consideration. It’s maddening because they’re just as common as any other articulation in the Classical Literature as well as Films, Records and most everything else.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 14, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Another vote for 2nd Vlns here.
> 
> What I don’t understand about most string libraries is the complete lack of detache‘ samples - of various lengths. Staccato and Spiccato seem to be the only short articulations available in most libraries. This cripples the ability for basic expression in string writing. Just the same as if there were no staccatos.
> 
> Early libraries such as VSL had them but at some point they seemed vanish from consideration. It’s maddening because they’re just as common as any other articulation in the Classical Literature as well as Films, Records and most everything else.


Maddening indeed. The most basic detache/medium note length type line that any beginner could play sounds often incredibly poor on modern samples.

This line sounds really nice but I was lucky that the CSSS sfz was a good length. If that sfz wasn't there I can't imagine how poor the accompaniment pattern would have sounded. I love CSS/S but the lack of medium length notes can be challenging sometimes.


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## constaneum (Dec 14, 2020)

Dave Connor said:


> Another vote for 2nd Vlns here.
> 
> What I don’t understand about most string libraries is the complete lack of detache‘ samples - of various lengths. Staccato and Spiccato seem to be the only short articulations available in most libraries. This cripples the ability for basic expression in string writing. Just the same as if there were no staccatos.
> 
> Early libraries such as VSL had them but at some point they seemed vanish from consideration. It’s maddening because they’re just as common as any other articulation in the Classical Literature as well as Films, Records and most everything else.



with this, i have to say Berlin series captured pretty vast range of arts. They have various blurred, long and short for Portato, staccato, Spiccatissimo , spiccato


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 14, 2020)

constaneum said:


> with this, i have to say Berlin series captured pretty vast range of arts. They have various blurred, long and short for Portato, staccato, Spiccatissimo , spiccato


They are there but the quality across the options imo can range from passable to "What is that strange noise".

Though I do appreciate them trying unlike most other developers


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## Piotrek K. (Dec 14, 2020)

Do you plan to develop all around string library or something for specific use cases?

I'd say I don't need true second violins if this means more in-depth sampling of standard playing styles - molto vibrato, vibrato, non vibrato, at least 3 short types, different attacks, 4-5 velocity layers, a few legato styles etc.

On the other hand if you plan to sacrifice second violins for 5 variations of flautandos, pizzicato performed with a mallet (sounds interesting though) and 30 second diminuendos / additional amount of players (20 instead of 10) than I'd say go for second violins.


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## Ihnoc (Dec 14, 2020)

Also if you could give us a microphone position that is a contact mic on a kitchen sink, that would be lovely...


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## Batrawi (Dec 14, 2020)

To me, a rock solid library that is perfectly scripted and recorded with just the basic articulations (legato & shorts) is more important than either having additional violins2 or additional articulations (especially decorative ones) - cause (to me at least) that's what most conventional compositions rely on by 90%. If a string library can perform and sing as how a human would hum a fairly complex melody (with connected notes i.e legato, manipulating dynamics, vibrato etc...) then that would be the perfect library. I'd imagine that it would need to be capable of the following as a minimum (which is not easy) :
-A legato that has: 
*full dynamic range (pp/mp/mf/f/ff) recorded without and with vibrato(vibrato depth and rate would naturally correspond to the played dynamic)
*same note rebow
*variable note attack (soft/medium/hard) for each dynamic layer
*fingered and portamento transitions (full actual transition must be preserved and we are given the option to control how more/less we want to hear from the transition)

-a good variety of short notes with different lengths (think CSS)

Bottom line, my advice for any developer: If you can't perfect what should accomplish a basic melodic line (which is already tough) then don't go further for what's more secondary or related to embellishment & decorative stuff (since there are already specialised libraries in that area which we can blend as needed with our *basic melodic lines*)


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## dts_marin (Dec 14, 2020)

IMO Strezov hit the nail on the head with those themed articulations in Afflatus. For many those may seem like one-trick ponies but I prefer hundreds of perfectly made one-trick ponies rather than countless discontinued ambitious efforts to sample jacks of all trades but masters of none. It doesn't have to follow the same niche concept but I love the effort they've put into updating the library and adding new content gradually instead of abandoning it. 

Don't try to make the same, perhaps unavoidable, mistake that other developers have done. If you want to innovate just take your time and do things the right way from the beginning. Perhaps even redo some of it along the way. Many of us would repay the whole thing if developers just went back and fixed or added new content to already established products that work moderately well but always have major issues or limitations. 

I understand that this modular process can be hard to effectively advertise it and convince users to buy one-trick ponies but we need more well scripted libraries that do one thing really-really well.

If you nail the harder ones (good flexible legatos, great hall sound etc.). Then it easier to convince people to pay more for expansions with secondary more easily done articulations. 

The old way of doing all things at once and never touch them again is starting to make things a lot harder both for developers and the users IMO.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Dec 14, 2020)

I just hope that one day our old friends the Woodwinds get this attention 
Those poor Woodwinds, I love woodwinds as well, but every developer appears to place them last on the list. I am not sure why, as John Williams used them extensively... such a powerful sound

But I understand, from what I have have heard, that they are hard to Orchestrate as well.


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## dts_marin (Dec 14, 2020)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I just hope that one day our old friends the Woodwinds get this attention
> Those poor Woodwinds, I love woodwinds as well, but every developer appears to place them last on the list. I am not sure why, as John Williams used them extensively... such a powerful sound
> 
> But I understand, from what I have have heard, that they are hard to Orchestrate as well.



There are some high-end WW libraries that are most certainly in the works. Covid may have derailed things but we'll see.. AudioBro's Modern Scoring Woodwinds, VSL Synchron Woodwinds & 8Dio's Century WW. 

Whatever it takes to get rid of Berlin WW. Such a PITA. Great when they came out but the workflow and inconsistencies are too much for a composer in a hurry.


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## MartinH. (Dec 14, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Maddening indeed. The most basic detache/medium note length type line that any beginner could play sounds often incredibly poor on modern samples.
> 
> This line sounds really nice but I was lucky that the CSSS sfz was a good length. If that sfz wasn't there I can't imagine how poor the accompaniment pattern would have sounded. I love CSS/S but the lack of medium length notes can be challenging sometimes.



+1 for more medium note lengths. To me those are more important than dynamic layers.


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## AudioLoco (Dec 14, 2020)

If a full string library will exist, and it will match the level of control and expressiveness found in Joshua Bell Violin, you should be fine with that library you are not planning at all.


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## Tremendouz (Dec 14, 2020)

constaneum said:


> 3. Different types of legato with various agility and at least 2 types of note attacks catered for (slow attack, fast/instance attack). lots of strings libraries are suffering from this note attack. Even though they cater for slow, medium and fast, that's only on the legato note transition. They've forgotten about the start of the note. Imagine writing fast legato transition piece but the start of the note sounds like it's suffering from a bit sluggish build up crescendo effect.


This so much. So many legatos end up feeling disconnected because there's a volume dip right after the transition.


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## Raphioli (Dec 14, 2020)

Can't really choose because a true 2nd violin and more dynamic layers and RRs.
They're really equivalently important imho.


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 14, 2020)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> In my experience the most successful string libraries rather have smaller sections with SCS on the extreme side and to my taste one of the best. So going with smaller sizes isn't necessary a trade of but might be even an advantage. And cuts costs.


You tell that to the VSL owners & think about what they say.

Well it demands good and bright maneuvers all along the way, not just to bring in their incandescent monument into the world of sample libraries but to comprehend the way forward.


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## muziksculp (Dec 14, 2020)

So...What will be the name of your Strings library ?


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## ysnyvz (Dec 14, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> So...What will be the name of your Strings library ?


Shreddage Strings, obviously.


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## Tremendouz (Dec 14, 2020)

ysnyvz said:


> Shreddage Strings, obviously.


Now I want to write metal riffs using basses and cellos playing power chords. Replace palm mutes with spiccatos.


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## Batrawi (Dec 14, 2020)

ysnyvz said:


> Shreddage Strings, obviously.


...or maybe Bravura Strings, eventhough the acronym won't be in favor of the library


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## ysnyvz (Dec 14, 2020)

Tremendouz said:


> Now I want to write metal riffs using basses and cellos playing power chords. Replace palm mutes with spiccatos.


Yeah, it's fun.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 14, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> So...What will be the name of your Strings library ?



If we were hypothetically doing such a project I'd wait until we had awesome audio & video to share to start _really_ talking about it


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## muziksculp (Dec 14, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> If we were hypothetically doing such a project I'd wait until we had awesome audio & video to share to start _really_ talking about it



Hi Andrew,

Oh.. I see, well you are in the right place to do some preliminary research, and get some direct feedback from potential buyers. A very good, and smart way to proceed, I wish more developers ask us about what they would like, and what we don't really care for. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 14, 2020)

ysnyvz said:


> Shreddage Strings, obviously.


Lol!


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 14, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> If we were hypothetically doing such a project I'd wait until we had awesome audio & video to share to start _really_ talking about it


May I ask how big is this String section’s going to be?

Should we expect a Symphonic size or Chamber size?
Or may be somewhere in between?


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## ToadsworthLP (Dec 15, 2020)

I assume this is for the strings library you hinted at in that Making Music like Sawano thread the other day? If you can really nail that Octopath Traveler sound, I'd be totally fine without a full ensemble or real con sordinos - not that they wouldn't be nice to have (especially true sordino), but I'd be able to make do without them.
As for the name - Square Enix Strings. I realize that their lawyers probaby wouldn't be happy about that name, but at least everyone would know exactly what the library is going to sound like


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## Kristoben (Dec 15, 2020)

Overall I think playable good "core" articulations across all of the instruments is the most important thing. That Japanese strings sound has always been something I've loved! If you are going that for that studio sound I think second violins and sordino are more important than full ensemble. But I don't see any issue with emulating second violins and sordinos if it sounds well enough. I would much rather have emulated seconds and sords than none at all.


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## constaneum (Dec 15, 2020)

Kristoben said:


> Overall I think playable good "core" articulations across all of the instruments is the most important thing. That Japanese strings sound has always been something I've loved! If you are going that for that studio sound I think second violins and sordino are more important than full ensemble. But I don't see any issue with emulating second violins and sordinos if it sounds well enough. I would much rather have emulated seconds and sords than none at all.



If it's the Japanese strings sound you're aiming for, it'll be on my list for sure but if its another hollywood strings or epic sounding strings, a definite pass for me as these are covered pretty well in most strings sample libraries to date


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## muziksculp (Dec 15, 2020)

constaneum said:


> If it's the Japanese strings sound you're aiming for



I'm not sure what 'Japanese Strings' means, maybe you mean Japanese Anime music Strings ? 

Do they get processed in a special way to make them sound different ?


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## ToadsworthLP (Dec 15, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> I'm not sure what 'Japanese Strings' means, maybe you mean Japanese Anime music Strings ?
> 
> Do they get processed in a special way to make them sound different ?



Mostly smaller sections and rooms than what you hear in most typical hollywood-style soundtracks. This also allows non-orchestral instruments to blend in a bit better (the Xenoblade Chronicles DE/2 OSTs are a great example of that)!


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## jaketanner (Dec 15, 2020)

I voted for Something Else...I think having true 2nds is great, but the most important aspect for me, is playability...if that isn't there first, it doesn't matter how many dynamics, articulations or true recordings you have.


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## holywilly (Dec 15, 2020)

One of my favorite Japanese drama OST, strings just sound amazing, super agile.


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## IdealSequenceG (Dec 15, 2020)

That sound


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 15, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> May I ask how big is this String section’s going to be?
> 
> Should we expect a Symphonic size or Chamber size?
> Or may be somewhere in between?



Hypothetically I think 8/6/4/4/3 sounds pretty good, that's comparable to the size used on soundtracks like Octopath Traveler.


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## muziksculp (Dec 15, 2020)

IdealSequenceG said:


> That sound




Not the type of soundtrack music I listen to, it sound good, but not my cup of coffee.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm more a fan of this:


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## dzilizzi (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> I'm more a fan of this:



I like this as well.


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## holywilly (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Hypothetically I think 8/6/4/4/3 sounds pretty good, that's comparable to the size used on soundtracks like Octopath Traveler.


That’s our preferred ensemble size when come to live string recording, it has lush sound with every little detail. I have my dimension strings set to this ensemble for writing as well.


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## muziksculp (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> I'm more a fan of this:




Yes ! 

Much more in-tune with my taste.


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## ToadsworthLP (Dec 15, 2020)

I already can't wait to recreate this little line from Octopath Traveler's "final" boss battle theme and this one from one of the normal boss themes with it. Truly one of the best (and my personal favorite) recent game soundtrack!


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> I'm more a fan of this:



Man, if you get the legato right with this, you'll be on to a winner. Gotta get that CSS/Performance samples level transitions going! Anything that facilitates achieving this sound is something to potentially forgo 2nd violin for.


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## Akarin (Dec 15, 2020)

There are way enough strings libraries on the market to look at one that doesn't have second violins 😊


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## GtrString (Dec 15, 2020)

Signature sound, good selection and playability is top.


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## constaneum (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> I'm more a fan of this:




yes yes. that sound. the strings sound so beautiful. lot of sample libraries didn't capture such sound, especially the violin.


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## constaneum (Dec 15, 2020)

Tom Ferguson said:


> Man, if you get the legato right with this, you'll be on to a winner. Gotta get that CSS/Performance samples level transitions going! Anything that facilitates achieving this sound is something to potentially forgo 2nd violin for.



yes. legato and the sound itself.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 15, 2020)

Indeed. Shoot for the stars, right? 

Well, since I don't want to be _too_ coy, this is something I've been working on since January of this year. As you can imagine there are pretty huge language barriers involved and finding the right people to facilitate the process took a lot of work, but contracts have been signed, money has changed hands, and the wheel of fate is starting to turn.


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## CT (Dec 15, 2020)

Best of luck with it, Andrew! I'm sure we're all eager to witness how it turns out.


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## muziksculp (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Indeed. Shoot for the stars, right?
> 
> Well, since I don't want to be _too_ coy, this is something I've been working on since January of this year. As you can imagine there are pretty huge language barriers involved and finding the right people to facilitate the process took a lot of work, but contracts have been signed, money has changed hands, and the wheel of fate is starting to turn.



Hi Andrew, 

Congratulations in advance. 

I'm sure you are very passionate about this project. (Strings Library I assume). Quite a demanding task, especially in these times. That is proof enough that you have the drive, and passion to get it done without compromises, and with a first-class quality. 

Hope we were able to contribute something useful to your project on this forum. I'm a Strings Library junkie, so I will surely be very interested once you have it ready for release.  

Wishing you all the Best,
Muziksculp


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## Sarah Mancuso (Dec 15, 2020)

Fantastic to hear, I'm very excited for this one!


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## Babe (Dec 15, 2020)

Ihnoc said:


> Also if you could give us a microphone position that is a contact mic on a kitchen sink, that would be lovely...


Will it have to be sampled with different water temperatures?


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 15, 2020)

Thanks for the kind words. Current plan is 8/6/4/4/3. The studio is really nice - SoundCity, just check out these credits - it has a very focused sound. Reverb tail is like 0.8-1.0s or so on the far mics. The lead engineer we're working with is of course going to do everything in the same sort of style he used for projects like Octopath Traveler, FF7 Remake, My Hero Academia, and a million other projects (including many Sawano works.) In checking out stems from the studio & ensemble, the sound works REALLY well with added reverb, especially Bricasti M7 style.

What I basically have is a giant matrix of sections, articulations, dynamics, RR, vibrato (etc) and formulas that calculate, based on those factors & many many others, how much time is needed. Given the time available for all parties that lets us then create a priority list of things we *definitely* can get vs things we *might *get.

Based on this thread we're for sure doing true second violins, which was exactly what I planned to begin with. Also, each section will have the same articulations. None of this frankenstein stuff


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## Trash Panda (Dec 15, 2020)

Get hype!


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## Kristoben (Dec 15, 2020)

Absolutely looking forward to this! Those credits for the studio...WOW!


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## ShidoStrife (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Also, each section will have the same articulations. None of this frankenstein stuff



YES PLEASE!


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## lzcmusic (Dec 15, 2020)

Hi Andrew 
Will Bravura Scoring Brass be updated? For example, support NKS.


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## muziksculp (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm listening to *Octapath Traveler* Soundtrack (2018) by Yasunori Nishiki. 

Awesome Strings, and the entire recording quality, and mix are fabulous. 

If you can emulate the timbre, and character of the strings, you will have an amazing Strings Library ! 

You are on the right path.


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## Batrawi (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> I'm more a fan of this:



That's a gorgeous sound, but please please stay away from bow-change legato (unless of course it's available as an option)


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## Gerbil (Dec 15, 2020)

For what it's worth, lots of varieties of shorts with different attacks and plenty of air in the sound is what I'm after the most. The spicc/stacc/marc choice is far too limited. A performance patch with playable slurs and shorts would be brilliant.

Bartok pizz and col legno are the two things I care least about. That may be because I've got too many string libraries though!


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## Ihnoc (Dec 15, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Thanks for the kind words. Current plan is 8/6/4/4/3. The studio is really nice - SoundCity, just check out these credits - it has a very focused sound. Reverb tail is like 0.8-1.0s or so on the far mics. The lead engineer we're working with is of course going to do everything in the same sort of style he used for projects like Octopath Traveler, FF7 Remake, My Hero Academia, and a million other projects (including many Sawano works.) In checking out stems from the studio & ensemble, the sound works REALLY well with added reverb, especially Bricasti M7 style.



Can always rely on yourself Andrew and Impact Soundworks to _get _this genre of game soundtracks. I know you've got a big background in OC Remix so recording this kind of library in Japan must be pretty exciting for you. Props to you and here's to it all going well!


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 16, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Hypothetically I think 8/6/4/4/3 sounds pretty good, that's comparable to the size used on soundtracks like Octopath Traveler.



Thanks.

That sounds Chamber to me. But to me, it doesn’t matter what it is. Rather how great in its every vein. Oh am always fascinated about the Mic positions it makes magic.

ISW makes reliable products and am sure I can count on it.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 16, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> Thanks.
> 
> That sounds Chamber to me. But to me, it doesn’t matter what it is. Rather how great in its every vein. Oh am always fascinated about the Mic positions it makes magic.
> 
> ISW makes reliable products and am sure I can count on it.



Thanks for the kind words & confidence.

This ensemble size is common in Japanese orchestral recording for scores, albums, etc. I think one reason is that - generally speaking - space is at a premium there in metro areas. Therefore, very big studio or hall spaces are nowhere near as common as they are elsewhere in the world. So I think the standard became ~31-33 string players. This is bigger than most libraries marketed as chamber and similar or identical in size to libraries like Berlin Strings or Albion 2.


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## MSutherlandComp (Dec 16, 2020)

Spoiler



Depends on whether or not the soloist is Koichiro Muroya


 

On a serious note, it depends. For a library like SCS, for example - of course I would prefer true recordings for second violins. On the other hand, for a library like Con Moto, it isn’t very important to me, and spoofing the 2nd violins has yet to result in any phasing issues for me.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 16, 2020)

MSutherlandComp said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler



It is, of course!


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## MSutherlandComp (Dec 16, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It is, of course!





Spoiler



In that case, you’re performing a service to humanity, and I can’t wait to see what comes of it!



Personally, I’m much more interested in the modern anime and video game sound string tone than the “90s” tone (seems like a gimmick).


Spoiler



Since it’s Daisensei Muroya, I’m sure you’ll nail the modern sound!



If it can nail this (once the end-user adds reverb of course), it will be an instant-buy for me:

I’m curious to know the stage if you are at liberty to share?

And finally - THANK YOU for finally filling this niche in the market. You’re my hero.


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 16, 2020)

This entire year has been preproduction. As you can imagine, very time consuming: planning the logistics involving a large group on another continent, plus all the staff needed in terms of engineering, general translation between all parties, bilingual legal documents, all that stuff. Plus with COVID there is a huge wrench being thrown into everything. It may not even be possible for me (or other ISW staff) to be on-site due to travel restrictions. Or maybe the vaccine will be widespread by April. Who knows!

All the contracts have been signed and we have a fairly concrete sampling plan for our dates in the studio (should be about 15-16 full sessions.) 

*Right now* we're working on creating MIDIs, and then scores, for our first test session, which will be next month. This will help us hone in on exactly how we need to write / orchestrate / conduct in order to get the best performances, and then test those performances in editing & scripting. We'll then continue iterating on that until April when the full sessions take place. At that point we will have one MORE test day with the ensemble & studio to 110% check recordings, mix, and articulations before we go all-in.

Also, in terms of how this will compare to our other orchestral libraries: there is no comparison. FWIW, libraries like Bravura & our two Rhapsody instruments were not personally designed by me. I'm proud of them and I think they are still an excellent value; I still use Bravura and ROP in my own projects. However, they were *partner *projects where we handled scripting/UI but were not involved with the recording *at all*. The approach was completely different.

This time we have the luxury of controlling the entire project start to finish, which is something I have been waiting carefully to do: we needed the opportunity, time, resources, and 10+ years of experience to be confident enough to execute properly. And we're finally here.

Finally, ISW co-founder Wilbert Roget, II is involved as well. 9 years ago he stepped back to pursue in-house audio work, and then full-time composing; since then has has written scores for some of the biggest video game/media franchises ever... Tomb Raider, Star Wars, Call of Duty, Destiny, Guild Wars, Mortal Kombat. He's also godlike at MIDI mockups and has created some incredible private instruments from performance-sourced recordings. His help and consulting on this will be invaluable.


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## axb312 (Dec 16, 2020)

I would personally like a playable library capable of doing extremely agile stuff and the extremely slow emotional stuff with ease, just like real players.

Don't mind a few keyswitches for other essential articulations.


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## Mark Schmieder (Dec 16, 2020)

Andrew, I can't take the time during the work week (I work 11-14 hours a day) to read six pages of a brand-new thread, but based on your original post, I'd say it's not quite as critical to record uniquely different sections of players vs. getting the spatial aspect correct and at least some tricks that you know of to improve how the two sections combine when in unison and how good are the transitions between split section phrases and where they come together.

I frankly don't think it's worth quite as much effort vs. other aspects, to double your work overall when really the bang-for-buck regarding development effort vs. results seems much larger when taking the individually-miked player approach such as in VSL Dimension Series and a few other libraries.

OTOH if the recording time and cost can be managed and the programming and production time deferred for a "Pro Upgrade" later on (that not everyone would want or need), go for it!


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## constaneum (Dec 16, 2020)

VSriHarsha said:


> Thanks.
> 
> That sounds Chamber to me. But to me, it doesn’t matter what it is. Rather how great in its every vein. Oh am always fascinated about the Mic positions it makes magic.
> 
> ISW makes reliable products and am sure I can count on it.



Offering a wide range of MIC position would be great. For me, at least 4 (close, tree, room and ambient/ outrigger) and a full Mix MIC options would be ideal. Having 10-15 mics would be great but can be troublesome when it comes to factoring of storage space required unless you offer things like SINE where by we're allowed to purchase full MIC but download the required at any time you like. Most importantly is capturing the right sound / timbre regardless of how many mics offered.


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 16, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Thanks for the kind words & confidence.
> 
> This ensemble size is common in Japanese orchestral recording for scores, albums, etc. I think one reason is that - generally speaking - space is at a premium there in metro areas. Therefore, very big studio or hall spaces are nowhere near as common as they are elsewhere in the world. So I think the standard became ~31-33 string players. This is bigger than most libraries marketed as chamber and similar or identical in size to libraries like Berlin Strings or Albion 2.


Wow! Are we going to hear Japanese Orchestra?
Now that’s something pretty exciting eh?


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## VSriHarsha (Dec 16, 2020)

constaneum said:


> Offering a wide range of MIC position would be great. For me, at least 4 (close, tree, room and ambient, outrigger) and a full Mix MIC options would be ideal. Having 10-15 mics would be great but can be troublesome when it comes to factoring of storage space required unless you offer things like SINE where by we're allowed to purchase full MIC but download the required at any time you like. Most importantly is capturing the right sound / timbre regardless of how many mics offered.


Yea. That is right!


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## Piano Pete (Dec 17, 2020)

*Wall o' Text inbound.*



Andrew Aversa said:


> Hypothetically I think 8/6/4/4/3 sounds pretty good, that's comparable to the size used on soundtracks like Octopath Traveler.




Honestly, this is effectively the Goldilocks zone for a lot of recording I have been a part of. Although--I would have been perfectly happy if you said it was 8-6-4-4-1, but I'm not going to shy away from having the extra beef. It can go large or small when needed--especially if layered, mic'ed, or mixed accordingly.

There are definitely enough "mega" samples to get the job done at this point, but I am not entirely sold on many of the chamber libraries that have come out as of yet. Maybe it's because I have spent too many hours in sessions, but nothing has yet to catch my ear as something worth the investment. I was hoping Nashville Scoring Strings would be the one to do it, but I ended up passing it by.

The hall choice seems to also be a nice pick, as its sound should easily blend with pretty much whatever you want. That, Oceanway, and a few others seem to have a knack of playing well with other spaces--which I love. There are a few other smaller halls that I have worked in that sound stressed even with a few players, but I dont think that should be the case.

Regarding features I would like to see in a library?

*Mic Positions:* The standard fair of Close, Mid, and Tree are more than enough for me to do what I need to do. Any extra positions are a luxury, but in this scenario, I dont think they are worth the extra hassle or cost (if something has to hit the chopping block). Especially as intimate as the hall is, any extra extravagant setup as one would do for larger halls/stages is probably not going to have the same impact for samples. Most people dont even touch them anyways, and for tweakers, the holy trinity (and maybe an ambient) is more than enough to keep us occupied... That said, a mic on the principles is nice to have, but with samples, the close usually fulfills this anyways.

*Section leader(s)*: For me, this would probably be a nice addition/expansion. For the main library, if you were to say that something else would have to go to obtain them due to the cost analysis, then I'd be hesitant to say yes. Maybe I'd hem and haw over the concertmaster as an in situ soloist, but sampled solo strings aren't exactly the most convincing. 

Furthermore, while I understand that not everyone has access to soloists or live players, strings have usually been the easiest to grab live recordings of. As easy as it is to record a pass or two with a good player(s) that either: a) has easy access to a studio, or b) has a decent home studio, I have not found it difficult to finagle a budget for string soloists. Even for projects that were "all in the box" upon their conception, it's been my experience that directors, producers, and studios appear to be quicker at realizing the difference a live player makes for a pivotal solo/sweetening than a sample trying its hardest to not break.

*Flexibility:* While they usually sound better than programmed midi, I have never been a fan of pre-recorded runs. Especially given the ensemble size, hall choice, and reference to Octopath, it would be fantastic if it can handle both the slow/emotive and fast/agile music (without becoming a laser beam). Given that those two things generally require completely different approaches within Kontakt, I would be happier to see them as separate patches that do their respective rolls well rather than to have it all shoved into a single one that cant cope with either. 

While I tend to like more performance based libraries, if it can handle the prior musical spectrum and must be programmed instead of played in, I am totally game. So long as it can do a given task(s) well, I dont really care what I have to do to achieve it. Even if the library has to have a ridiculous delay to choose the best articulation that will sound the best once printed to audio, I'm fine with that. I'm more than happy to learn a new workflow if the payoff justifies it.

*Articulations:* Someone else mentioned an emphasis on the core and standard articulations, and I'll second that. A nice variety of longs, shorts, staccatissimi--that still hold up at varying tempi--is more valuable to me than a huge net of random articulations. For me, I'd rather see more emphasis on the articulations between Long and staccato. There are enough staccatissimo libraries and patches to sink several battle ships. I'd rather see different characters of longs, tenutos, and staccatos--on the string and off if enough of a difference warrants it--than to be bombarded by staccatissimi. Tenutos need some love as well, haha. 

Even if the articulations were split into different characters or fast and slows, I'd still take that over a wider net of samples--as I can then layer and interchange what I need as necessary.

*Dynamics: *I really like having the full dynamic spectrum at my fingertips, but this is usually impractical to do in commercial libraries. I think the biggest thing is how seamless the transitions are, so if you guys can pull off smooth transitions between a limited number of dynamics, kudos. I'd rather see more focus aimed at the p<f range rather than ff or fff+ range. Usually the trip to ff is more interesting than the ff itself.

*Vibrato: *Technical challenges of sampling this aside, it would be fantastic to see vibrato sampled in a way that sounds like it has some musical context for a given phrase. To clarify: a lot of libraries' vibrato comes across as an indifferent wash of sound that never sounds like it _could_ belong to a given phrase. Accounting for how much musical context vibrato brings to a note's attack and release, a constant molto-esspressivo-vibrato almost becomes background noise at a certain point. Of course, choosing the right style of vibrato and placing it in the right spot is pretty much impossible for samples to do right now, but as long as it sounds like it _could_ belong to a given phrase, I'd be content.

*Ensemble Unison Patches:* Not necessary for me. If I want them to play in unsion, I'll write them in unison 

*Sonic Quality: *I prefer a warmer, smoother, and richer sonic quality to my strings. Of course, this can be achieved with eq after the fact, but a lot of the commercial libraries just seem to get bright and hissy really quickly. Some of this can be chalked up to sampling and some due to recording/production of them, but if you could manage something that either is neutral enough to be pushed bright or dark without much degradation to the original sample, or have something that doesn't sound like nails on glass, that would be amazing.


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## Lambchops (Dec 17, 2020)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> That's a tough one. It's nice having real second violins, but section leaders and con sordino samples are also great. I think with the right other content included, lacking real second violins isn't the end of the world.
> 
> Other things I like that come to mind that aren't sampled very often are true diminuendos and other real performed note endings (which generally sound better than faking it with automation), or different sets of legato transitions geared toward different types of lines (slower and more romantic, faster and more agile, etc).


VSL full libraries have plenty of those and time stretching them in VI Pro makes them flexible time wise. They def sound better and save the bother of editing too


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 17, 2020)

Loving the continued feedback. This is great, keep it coming!

For mic positions, you can expect four distinct ones. Aizawa labels these as Close (spot), Decca, Ambient, and Side (outrigger). We have some photos but as mentioned previously I want to wait until we have audio to share. Using our Console script (which is totally flexible mic mixing + modular FX per channel) we'll have a variety of mixes available out of the box. But we'll probably _also_ have Aizawa's signature mix as a separate sample set, using whatever magic sauce he uses (which I know includes some outboard gear.)

An important component here will be writing music that allows us to gracefully extract single notes _in the context of real playing, _so that they don't sound isolated and without context. This really does make a difference. Will (Roget) showed me some incredible patches he made based on some Star Wars live orchestral recordings, simply taking isolated unison notes from the end of various pieces. And it sounds incredible. 

I'm not talking about just writing interesting melodic phrases, but providing a full backing track that the conductor and the players can use as a basis for the emotion and expression in their playing.


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## Piano Pete (Dec 17, 2020)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Loving the continued feedback. This is great, keep it coming!
> 
> For mic positions, you can expect four distinct ones. Aizawa labels these as Close (spot), Decca, Ambient, and Side (outrigger). We have some photos but as mentioned previously I want to wait until we have audio to share. Using our Console script (which is totally flexible mic mixing + modular FX per channel) we'll have a variety of mixes available out of the box. But we'll probably _also_ have Aizawa's signature mix as a separate sample set, using whatever magic sauce he uses (which I know includes some outboard gear.)
> 
> ...



Sounds great!

It's awesome to see more developers try their hand at this technique and put their spin on it. It works really well, and it definitely keeps the energy in the session much higher than a traditional sampling session.

Based on the quality of your guys' libraries, individual work, and attention to detail, I'm definitely keeping my eyes and ears on this.

Best of luck as you plan your attack.


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## justthere (Dec 17, 2020)

I just wrote this elsewhere after listening to demos of the new OT stuff - I wish that libraries would move away from multiple mics and capturing the room married to the strings, in favor of using good IR’s. Seems like invariably the end result of dragging lots of mics around is audible slush and artifacts most notable in legatos. 

Also, I’d prefer real second violins, lots of other articulations, aleatoric stuff, time-synced dynamics, poly legato on a full ensemble patch as well as the sections, and I’d like for a lot of time and money to be spent on shorts. Most libraries seem to have been in a hurry recording pizz and spiccati, and the solution to more uniform attacks is always something horrible with a ramp in. I would like for the range of acceptable tightness in these instruments to be smaller and not have hear that same Ab3 going by. And if there are those slop notes that couldn’t be redone, just please, for my sanity, don’t refer to your library as “human”. Just make the humans play it again until it’s right or get better humans.

Going back to ambience - it’s funny that people clamor for it so much, maybe it’s the marketing that does it - but to me that’s mostly useful if one isn’t using a lot of dynamics and just wants to press a key and get a sound, and I find that ambience is the first thing that makes a library not work with other things. 

Good luck, ISW.


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## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2020)

By the way, I think Andrew Aversa is the first, and only sample developer that is developing a sample library, while posting about it as it is being developed on this forum, and getting direct feedback, suggestions, and advice, from forum members here, and also updating us on its progress, which makes a lot of sense.

I would like to give a big Salute to Mr. Andrew Aversa for taking this very wise, and novel approach. It is hard to go wrong the way he is approaching the development of his new Strings Library.

Exciting times ahead.


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## constaneum (Jan 5, 2021)

if able to capture Muroya Strings' sounds, that'll be great too. hehe


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## molemac (Feb 24, 2021)

@Andrew Aversa


Andrew Aversa said:


> Loving the continued feedback. This is great, keep it coming!
> 
> For mic positions, you can expect four distinct ones. Aizawa labels these as Close (spot), Decca, Ambient, and Side (outrigger). We have some photos but as mentioned previously I want to wait until we have audio to share. Using our Console script (which is totally flexible mic mixing + modular FX per channel) we'll have a variety of mixes available out of the box. But we'll probably _also_ have Aizawa's signature mix as a separate sample set, using whatever magic sauce he uses (which I know includes some outboard gear.)
> 
> ...


Hi Andrew, 

My advice and desires for a string library would be to be able to capture the emotion and detail of a small section whilst keeping the warmth of a larger one. Some smaller libraries can sound a little harsh. In my experience, it's all about the players and the room and of course the engineer. if you have the right players a small number can sound just as if not more emotional. Obviously the performance is crucial too and players playing a musical line together cannot be beat which is hard to achieve in samples. Perhaps I would go for the highest number of dynamics in the legatos and also the highest possible vibrato changes to be able to really sculpt the emotion. Here is an example of a cue I recorded in 2008 in a very small studio (Hear no evil in London )which used to belong to Hans Zimmer, recorded by Steve Parr who used to own it. I had to go back to my emails to check the lineup and was pretty surprised even myself. It was 4 violins 2 violas and 2 cellos. It gives lots of good examples of real legatos fairly exposed. If you can achieve this, Bob's your uncle or maybe Itzhac was your uncle.
View attachment Anne Frank End credits ©bucksmusic ltd.mp3


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## constaneum (Feb 24, 2021)

The liveliness of the strings sound compared to sampled strings. Most sample libraries are kinda loveless. Even though CSS is great with all its awesomeness in terms of legato scripting but it still end up with the fate of being a strings sample library with the common problem, which is the liveliness of the sound. It's not about riding on CC1 or CC11. It's just that sampled strings in general feel dull, expressionless , liveless...hopefully this can be nailed. To date, I think performance samples is near there, though not perfect


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## Evans (Feb 24, 2021)

I know I'm late on this, but I have always been able to work around not having a proper V2. I have often removed a library from a project, however, because the limited dynamic layers were too exposed the or limited artics just weren't cutting it.


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## dariusofwest (Feb 24, 2021)

molemac said:


> @Andrew Aversa
> 
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> ...


Really great track!


----------



## Rob Elliott (Feb 24, 2021)

molemac said:


> @Andrew Aversa
> 
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> ...


Very much agree with these thoughts!


----------



## Jish (Feb 24, 2021)

In the spirit of what molemac has said (and yes, a fine example to back up those suggestions) for me, I always thought the oft bereft-cited score to _The Crow _by Graeme Revell had several absolutely magical string cues, and you can clearly tell they are of a smaller, perhaps even medium section- the charm however (outside of inspired writing) is the damn inescapable quality that these few musicians are playing, and the engineering as well. Will use this opportunity as well to channel Robert Stack, and say: "If anyone has any additional information on the details of those recording sessions, please don't hesitate to reach out".

Really though, if 'hell' is in the details, than the good stuff must be as well- generous (and natural) sounding dynamic layers as well as varied vibrato intensity/type, there's just no getting around this stuff at the end of the day, IMO- I can easily do without the v2 violins's and 3 extra mic positions if we had more libraries that went all out on this type of approach.


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## molemac (Feb 24, 2021)

dariusofwest said:


> Really great track!


Thanks , helps having a great orchestrator too, detail also created in the score and conducting, thank you Alastair King


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## CT (Feb 24, 2021)

I may have already said this, but I think if there is to be only one violin section, I'd prefer to have the sections recorded tastefully centered (enough air and space to breathe, not enough wall reflections to make it feel like you're moving the whole room when you pan; hard balance to achieve) so things can be positioned freely. It always feels awkward to try slipping in a 2nd section when things were recorded in situ without any real room for such a section.


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 24, 2021)

Regarding legatos, based on test sessions, our final sessions should yield the following:

* 3 legato dynamics
* 4 legato transition types (downbow w/o bow change, upbow w/o bow change, downbow to up bow, upbow to downbow), plus at least 4x RR of rebowing
* 2 or 3 portamento dynamics, with user-adjustable speed

For sustains, 5x dynamics from pp to ff should be easily doable. Shorts will match this.

We will have two violin sections (8+6), placed as they would be w/ the full string section.


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2021)

Hi @Andrew Aversa ,

Thanks for the feedback, and update news on your Strings Library. 

I'm glad to know you plan on having two violin sections, and a healthy number of Dynamics, and RRs. 

Do you have a name for the library, or not yet ?  

Please keep us updated on the progress of your Strings library. Wishing you all the Best. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Bman70 (Feb 24, 2021)

I have a "something other" concern, I prefer libraries that don't use open string samples to pitch up or down to make what should be a fingered note. Only the E, A, D, or G strings on a violin should have that brassy, ringing open sound, yet I hear many libraries that have an inappropriate amount of open string sound.

I know whole tone sampling is common, but don't pitch the open E on violin down to make D#, or up to make F. It sounds horrible. Likewise, don't use open A to make B-flat, or G#. Lol Ok rant over.


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 24, 2021)

To me more important than having 2 same sized (larger) violin sections is to have smaller divisi sections.

Also, if anyone is still setting out to create yet another string library with the basic articulations at their core I would wish for 5 or more dynamic layers at a minimum for most articulations. Most libraries omit true ppp layers and in the face of so much competition today this is what a future product cannot afford to omit anymore.
I want to hear the extremely slowed down bowing on a ppp layer as well as getting close to breaking the instruments on fff. The in-between spaces have been adequately covered IMO in all sorts of sound flavors.


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## Vik (Feb 24, 2021)

I voted for "Something Else". I really appreciate having true recordings of both violin 1 and 2, but I also like the Con Moto solution with Violins A and Violins B, which both are good but somewhat different. I'm not so happy with true V1s and V2s if they the recordings makes it hard to make them sound more centred when that is desired.

Having 4, or ideally 5 dynamic layers is also high priority for me, but regarding the v1/v2 thing: I wish more libraries would come with more than two violin options, not (only) in terms of more articulations (eg Con Sordino legatos etc), but just different violins (and cellos, violas...). Modern Scoring Strings have two violins, and they sound a little different (one of them has a generally higher vibrato leven than the other IIRR). 

Even with libraries that have unique V1 and V2 recordings, I think it would be brilliant if they also came with at least two variations of each, especially of the V1. Those bonus instruments wouldn't have to be part of the core package, but could be an offer to existing users – my guess is that many feel the same way, and rather would buy some additional instruments for a library we already use and really like than having to buy something from another company just to get more expressivity, a less dark sound, more dynamic layers, more 'soar', more 'rach', or more lush/silk/warmth etc.

Another 'Something Else': A high priority, should I continue to buy more libraries, would be the ability to buy only one section at a time – at least for one of the sections (so we could buy to section check that library out).

Edit: the alternative violin (etc) sections wouldn't always have to have the same number of players – sometimes it would be essential that they offered the same sound/room etc, but with fewer/more players.


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## BL (Feb 24, 2021)

I find same note repetition important (with RR).

ppp-fff dyn.

Polyphonic legato and octave patches for the violins.


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## constaneum (Feb 24, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Regarding legatos, based on test sessions, our final sessions should yield the following:
> 
> * 3 legato dynamics
> * 4 legato transition types (downbow w/o bow change, upbow w/o bow change, downbow to up bow, upbow to downbow), plus at least 4x RR of rebowing
> ...


Listening to the Japanese composers' works, the slur transition sound is normally very prominent and sounds beautiful. This is what i found lacking or not that convincing in most strings libraries (except Chris Heins' Strings)


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## IdealSequenceG (Feb 24, 2021)

The start and end of the legato sample should never be cut.

Bravura Scoring Brass
Straight Ahead Jazz Horns

These two libraries are sad to lose potential for that reason.


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## TinderC (Feb 25, 2021)

If your going to provide a true violin 2 please make it perceptually distinct from violin 1, by which I mean give us the delay, panning or other parameters so that the sound does not fuse with violin 1. Dimension strings gives you this sort of control, if violin 1 and violin 2 are both playing longs they can be tweaked to sound like a true chamber recording with two separate violin sections instead of largeer washed out string section playing a chord.


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 25, 2021)

IdealSequenceG said:


> The start and end of the legato sample should never be cut.
> 
> Bravura Scoring Brass
> Straight Ahead Jazz Horns
> ...



I'm not sure what you mean by that first part.

I will say that with both of those libraries, while I'm very happy with the end product we released in both sound and value, ISW did not record either of them. SAJH was recorded & edited by Straight Ahead Samples, while Bravura was recorded & edited and licensed to us by a 3rd party. The library I've discussed in this thread is being designed, recorded, and edited in-house.


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## Casiquire (Feb 25, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Regarding legatos, based on test sessions, our final sessions should yield the following:
> 
> * 3 legato dynamics
> * 4 legato transition types (downbow w/o bow change, upbow w/o bow change, downbow to up bow, upbow to downbow), plus at least 4x RR of rebowing
> ...


This sounds amazing


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## constaneum (Feb 25, 2021)

Looking forward to the strings library.


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## IdealSequenceG (Feb 26, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by that first part.
> 
> I will say that with both of those libraries, while I'm very happy with the end product we released in both sound and value, ISW did not record either of them. SAJH was recorded & edited by Straight Ahead Samples, while Bravura was recorded & edited and licensed to us by a 3rd party. The library I've discussed in this thread is being designed, recorded, and edited in-house.


The length of the legato sample source is too short.

Despite actually recording legato, the edited version is an super short sound of 0.1 second. (Hear a little bit of the release sound)

Same problematic libraries.

Fable Sounds - Broadway Big Band
Sonuscore - The Orchestra Complete 2
Chris Hein – Ensemble Strings
Sonokinetic - Da Capo
Westgate Studios - Woodwinds Series
Native Instruments - Session Strings 2

Therefore, I was curious. Why do they need to record legato to change it to such a short edited sound?

Fortunately, it was a problem with third-party libraries, and I'm glad to know that there was no problem with the library by ISW.


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## mybadmemory (Feb 27, 2021)

Is this planned to be a string library only, or eventually a full range of Japanese studio sized orchestra? 😬


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## Klesk (Feb 28, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> I have a "something other" concern, I prefer libraries that don't use open string samples to pitch up or down to make what should be a fingered note. Only the E, A, D, or G strings on a violin should have that brassy, ringing open sound, yet I hear many libraries that have an inappropriate amount of open string sound.
> 
> I know whole tone sampling is common, but don't pitch the open E on violin down to make D#, or up to make F. It sounds horrible. Likewise, don't use open A to make B-flat, or G#. Lol Ok rant over.


This is actually an important detail. But of course chromatic sampling is always preferrable.

Another thing I like is having the option to disable specific RRs in short notes. And an option to enable neighbour RRs in short notes (another possible benefit of chromatic sampling).


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## constaneum (Feb 28, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Is this planned to be a string library only, or eventually a full range of Japanese studio sized orchestra? 😬


Even the brass. Ahah


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 28, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Is this planned to be a string library only, or eventually a full range of Japanese studio sized orchestra? 😬



Time will tell! If this library is successful we will absolutely record the rest of the orchestra with the same personnel. 

By the way, currently, our articulation list looks like... 

Sustains (vib, non-vib)
Legato (upbow fingered, downbow fingered, upbow bow change, downbow bowchange)
Portamento (several variations)
Staccato
"Action" staccato
Staccatissimo
Spiccato
Tremolo
Pizzicato
Sforzando dotted eighth
Sforzando dotted quarter
Decrescendo dotted eighth
Decrescendo dotted quarter
Sordino* (likely done via offline processing)

I feel like this should allow a wide range of mockup types, and will be the most useful in giving you the tools needed to create that nimble, agile string sound used in many Japanese soundtracks.


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2021)

@ISW,

Thanks for the Articulation List info. 

Have you decided on how many Mics the library will offer ? 

Thanks


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 28, 2021)

The engineer, who has recorded many instantly recognizable anime & game soundtracks, typically uses 2-4 close mics per section (we will mix these into one "Close" position), a 3-mic decca tree (to be mixed into a "Decca" perspective), two distant mics ("Ambient"), and two outrigger mics ("Rear" or "Side"). Finally, I would like to include a "Board Mix" which will be ALL mics carefully pre-mixed on the console and condensed to a stereo track.


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## mybadmemory (Feb 28, 2021)

This sounds so promising! Multiple portamento speeds. Can’t wait. 😍


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## GNP (Feb 28, 2021)

If I was working in market where I could constantly hire live players, then yes, I'd prefer to have true recordings of 1st and 2nd violins, which directly translates to how I can make use of live players.

If I was not, then I really don't care. I just load 'em as I need 'em, violins or not.


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2021)

Regarding Vibrato. Which is a very important detail when it comes to strings. 

For the Sustains, will there be a way to control vibrato amount via CC ?

What about Vibrato Control for Legatos ?


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## muk (Feb 28, 2021)

This looks fantastic, Andrew. Clearly it's a work of love, and great care went into the planning. If there is one thing I would wish for on the articulations list it is two or three lengths of portato. Portato short, portato medium(, and long). They can be very important for certain phrases. Can't be faked with staccato, nor with sustains. And most libraries don't include these.


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## jbuhler (Feb 28, 2021)

muk said:


> This looks fantastic, Andrew. Clearly it's a work of love, and great care went into the planning. If there is one thing I would wish for on the articulations list it is two or three lenghts of portato. Portato short, portato medium(, and long). They can be very important for certain phrases. Can't be faked with staccato, nor with sustains. And most libraries don't include these.


+1 on portato.


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## constaneum (Feb 28, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Time will tell! If this library is successful we will absolutely record the rest of the orchestra with the same personnel.
> 
> By the way, currently, our articulation list looks like...
> 
> ...


oh....no love for trills ? haha


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2021)

... And no 'Flautando' ?


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 28, 2021)

Trills just barely did not make the cut. We have budget for 10 days in the studio - not counting a day of tests & setup, that's 18 sessions, or 3 per section plus some extra in case we need redos. We've already done tests of our scores in Bulgaria and I'm pretty confident we can nail the list above with great dynamic & RR detail.

If by the 2nd session for a given section we feel like things are going well, trills would be the next thing to be added.

Portato is an interesting one. Our observation of the playing style of Japanese string players is that they almost tend to do this naturally when playing legato anyway...


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## molemac (Feb 28, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Trills just barely did not make the cut. We have budget for 10 days in the studio - not counting a day of tests & setup, that's 18 sessions, or 3 per section plus some extra in case we need redos. We've already done tests of our scores in Bulgaria and I'm pretty confident we can nail the list above with great dynamic & RR detail.
> 
> If by the 2nd session for a given section we feel like things are going well, trills would be the next thing to be added.
> 
> Portato is an interesting one. Our observation of the playing style of Japanese string players is that they almost tend to do this naturally when playing legato anyway...


Wow that’s a lot of sessions. 3 per section, what’s the 6th section ?


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## constaneum (Feb 28, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Trills just barely did not make the cut. We have budget for 10 days in the studio - not counting a day of tests & setup, that's 18 sessions, or 3 per section plus some extra in case we need redos. We've already done tests of our scores in Bulgaria and I'm pretty confident we can nail the list above with great dynamic & RR detail.
> 
> If by the 2nd session for a given section we feel like things are going well, trills would be the next thing to be added.
> 
> Portato is an interesting one. Our observation of the playing style of Japanese string players is that they almost tend to do this naturally when playing legato anyway...


I don't mind coming as future upgrades. Great to hear. Hoping release by this year. I'm bored with COVID and wanna play new gears. Ahhaha


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## Andrew Aversa (Feb 28, 2021)

molemac said:


> Wow that’s a lot of sessions. 3 per section, what’s the 6th section ?


Sorry, let me clarify. Violins 1, 2, Viola, Cello, Bass: 3 each = 15. Then, there are 3 more sessions booked if we need to re-record anything (or just for bonus material, if things are going fast.) I might be able to snag one more day as well. 

There are just a ton of moving parts here: two Japanese companies are involved, plus all 30+ musicians, the studio, and the engineer, not to mention the chance that any ISW staff can go there is basically 0% due to COVID restrictions... so we'll be remote monitoring. Of course even *that *is going to be insane due to the 14 hour time difference, so it'll be graveyard shifts for over a week here!!


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## constaneum (Feb 28, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Sorry, let me clarify. Violins 1, 2, Viola, Cello, Bass: 3 each = 15. Then, there are 3 more sessions booked if we need to re-record anything (or just for bonus material, if things are going fast.) I might be able to snag one more day as well.
> 
> There are just a ton of moving parts here: two Japanese companies are involved, plus all 30+ musicians, the studio, and the engineer, not to mention the chance that any ISW staff can go there is basically 0% due to COVID restrictions... so we'll be remote monitoring. Of course even *that *is going to be insane due to the 14 hour time difference, so it'll be graveyard shifts for over a week here!!


any anticipation on the ETA?


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## molemac (Mar 1, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Sorry, let me clarify. Violins 1, 2, Viola, Cello, Bass: 3 each = 15. Then, there are 3 more sessions booked if we need to re-record anything (or just for bonus material, if things are going fast.) I might be able to snag one more day as well.
> 
> There are just a ton of moving parts here: two Japanese companies are involved, plus all 30+ musicians, the studio, and the engineer, not to mention the chance that any ISW staff can go there is basically 0% due to COVID restrictions... so we'll be remote monitoring. Of course even *that *is going to be insane due to the 14 hour time difference, so it'll be graveyard shifts for over a week here!!


Good luck , what’s the library going to be called so we can give birth to the acronym in vi control and keep an eye out for it ?


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## constaneum (Mar 1, 2021)

molemac said:


> Good luck , what’s the library going to be called so we can give birth to the acronym in vi control and keep an eye out for it ?


will it be having a Japanese name to make it sound cool ? ehehe


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## constaneum (Mar 1, 2021)

constaneum said:


> will it be having a Japanese name to make it sound cool ? ehehe








this ???


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## chrisav (Mar 1, 2021)

Sonething JRPG-inspired maybe? Crystal Warrior Strings? Or just Crystal Strings? 😅


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## molemac (Mar 1, 2021)

constaneum said:


> will it be having a Japanese name to make it sound cool ? ehehe


Samurai Strings


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## Tremendouz (Mar 1, 2021)

I just keep getting more and more excited about the library when reading everything revealed so far. I only have one string library with the choice between bow change and slur so far (Hollywood Strings) and that is pain to use because no proper keyswitches within PLAY

EDIT: The name should obviously be Octobass Traveler Strings even if it doesn't have said instrument


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## Andrew Aversa (Mar 1, 2021)

constaneum said:


> any anticipation on the ETA?


By end of year is the goal. It will be all hands on deck once we have the recordings. I'll definitely keep people posted, of course.

As for the name - my frontrunner is *Tokyo Scoring Strings*. 

I don't think it will necessarily need a Japanese translation, as my understanding is that even people who only speak Japanese are very used to reading English when it comes to commercial goods (particularly international goods.) In fact it can be kind of weird to see something _over-translated _when parts of it should just stay in English. For example if you check out the *Sonicwire website* (one of our distributors), only the JP-produced Hatsune Miku line has a translated name. And even then, there's plenty of English on there too


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## molemac (Mar 1, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> By end of year is the goal. It will be all hands on deck once we have the recordings. I'll definitely keep people posted, of course.
> 
> As for the name - my frontrunner is *Tokyo Scoring Strings*.
> 
> I don't think it will necessarily need a Japanese translation, as my understanding is that even people who only speak Japanese are very used to reading English when it comes to commercial goods (particularly international goods.) In fact it can be kind of weird to see something _over-translated _when parts of it should just stay in English. For example if you check out the *Sonicwire website* (one of our distributors), only the JP-produced Hatsune Miku line has a translated name. And even then, there's plenty of English on there too


Like it TSS it is


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## mybadmemory (Mar 1, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> By end of year is the goal. It will be all hands on deck once we have the recordings. I'll definitely keep people posted, of course.
> 
> As for the name - my frontrunner is *Tokyo Scoring Strings*.
> 
> I don't think it will necessarily need a Japanese translation, as my understanding is that even people who only speak Japanese are very used to reading English when it comes to commercial goods (particularly international goods.) In fact it can be kind of weird to see something _over-translated _when parts of it should just stay in English. For example if you check out the *Sonicwire website* (one of our distributors), only the JP-produced Hatsune Miku line has a translated name. And even then, there's plenty of English on there too


I humble vote for Japanese Scoring Strings here! :D 

Not sure if this was already mentioned, but how will the section sizes look?


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## bill45 (Mar 2, 2021)

Many cello library high notes are harsh.If you could make sure the cello
high notes are warm.That would be awesome.


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## Andrew Aversa (Mar 2, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> I humble vote for Japanese Scoring Strings here! :D
> 
> Not sure if this was already mentioned, but how will the section sizes look?


8/6/4/4/3  Most Japanese soundtracks do not get much bigger than that. It's similar to Octopath Traveler, too.


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## AndyP (Mar 2, 2021)

You can never have enough string libraries. I'm curious to see what ISW will come up with. If the timbre is right and the legatos can convince, then I am a potential buyer.


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## oofjelly (Mar 2, 2021)

Been lurking/following this thread for a while. I hope all works out for you and the people involved. I would love to support this project and I can't wait to see how it turns out. Cheers!


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## constaneum (Mar 2, 2021)

oofjelly said:


> Been lurking/following this thread for a while. I hope all works out for you and the people involved. I would love to support this project and I can't wait to see how it turns out. Cheers!


yes. i'm very excited when this is announced. hopefully it'll be the holy grail for something which i've been looking for all these years.


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## mybadmemory (Mar 3, 2021)

On the topic of playing techniques. Most libraries pull off fast ostianatos or slow legatos well, but there are few libraries that can convincingly play faster accented melodies like this. Which to me feels like an almost ubiquitous part of Japanese scoring.


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## dzilizzi (Mar 3, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> On the topic of playing techniques. Most libraries pull off fast ostianatos or slow legatos well, but there are few libraries that can convincingly play faster accented melodies like this. Which to me feels like an almost ubiquitous part of Japanese scoring.



That sounds more like fiddle style playing than violin playing. Not a lot of libraries can do that, as far as I know.


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## Denkii (Mar 3, 2021)

Strings of Mana.
Do it.
We both know you want to.


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## jeremyr (Mar 3, 2021)

Red Strings of Fate


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## constaneum (Mar 6, 2021)

Interesting. Octopath Traveler, Xenoblade 2 and Xenobalde X all hired the Muroya strings group and the first 2 were recorded at Victor Studio. so it this "Tokyo Scoring Strings" gonna be the same group at same recording venue ? hehe


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## Andrew Aversa (Mar 7, 2021)

Yes, Muroya Strings has also recorded for:


Attack on Titan
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
Super Mario Odyssey
Mobile Suit Gundam (various series)
Final Fantasy VII Remake
Seven Deadly Sins
Final Fantasy IV (official OST/arrange)
Chrono Trigger (official OST/arrange)
Kill la Kill
Kingdom Hearts III, II.8, Unchained, Union
The [email protected]
Phantasy Star Online 2
R∃/MEMBER by Hiroyuki Sawano
Darling in the Franxx
My Hero Academia
And about 600 other soundtracks :D

We are indeed working with them along with the engineer who has recorded/mixed such soundtracks, plus many many many others.

We're not recording at Victor because it doesn't have the best sound isolation; instead we'll be recording at SoundCity which is very comparable in size & tone (in blind tests, most of our staff preferred SoundCity!) and has superior isolation, which is ideal for sampling.

Here's an abbreviated list of soundtracks and works recorded at SoundCity:

Lupin the 3rd
Mobile Fighter G Gundam
Alundra
Final Fantasy VII Reunion
Ergheiz
Chocobo Mystery Dungeon
Sakura Wars 2
Cowboy Bebop
Cardcaptor Sakura
Final Fantasy VIII
Legend of Mana
Final Fantasy IX
Phantasy Star Online
Super Robot Wars
Dead or Alive series
Onimusha 2
Azumanga Daioh
Ghost of Tsushima
Granblue Fantasy
Star Ocean
Final Fantasy X-2
Wolf's Rain
Mobile Suit Gundam Seed
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
One Piece
Xenosaga II & III
Kill la Kill
Ghost in the Shell 2
Naruto Shippuden
Street Fighter V
Attack on Titan
Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker
Final Fantasy X Remaster
Final Fantasy VII Remake

... and about 1800 others.


----------



## Tom Ferguson (Mar 7, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Yes, Muroya Strings has also recorded for:
> 
> 
> Attack on Titan
> ...


Damn dude, that's a seriously awesome list of credits to the studio/musicians. I really hope this comes out as great as it's potential appears to be!


----------



## mybadmemory (Mar 7, 2021)

This is gearing up to become the string library of dreams. Already hoping for Tokyo Scoring Woodwinds as a follow up! 😬


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## muziksculp (Mar 7, 2021)

I Love Ghost of Tsushima soundtrack . 

Looking forward to TSS.


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## hylionbi (Mar 7, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Yes, Muroya Strings has also recorded for:
> 
> 
> Attack on Titan
> ...


When this is released it will definitely be an instabuy from me. I have quite a (un)healthy amount of string libraries and none of them are really able to emulate the _Japanese _string sound that I hear in a lot of my favorite anime/video games.

I am really looking forward to hearing more about this project and wish you the best of luck!!

Just to throw my 2 cents in a list of priorities based off your list:

1. More Dynamic Layers/RR
2. Something else - {I would like to see a really solid implementation of articulations commonly seen in Japanese string writing so composers have the ability to make really convincing mockups in that style. I feel like that and the overall sound is going to be the main selling point of the library compared to the competition.}
3. True Recordings of Second Violins
4. Runs
5. Sordino
6. Section leader(s) {I would like to see this as a potential future expansion for the library personally}
7. Full unison string section {I feel like a lot of string libraries add this in but would rather they spent more time/resources on fine tuning the other aspects of a library. I personally almost never use these patches except for quick sketching. Unless if there is a divisi feature, I don't want to play 3 notes and have it sound like I have a 90 piece orchestra (for example)}
​Thanks again for doing this!


----------



## Tom Ferguson (Mar 7, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Regarding legatos, based on test sessions, our final sessions should yield the following:
> 
> * 3 legato dynamics
> * 4 legato transition types (downbow w/o bow change, upbow w/o bow change, downbow to up bow, upbow to downbow), plus at least 4x RR of rebowing
> ...





Andrew Aversa said:


> Time will tell! If this library is successful we will absolutely record the rest of the orchestra with the same personnel.
> 
> By the way, currently, our articulation list looks like...
> 
> ...





hylionbi said:


> When this is released it will definitely be an instabuy from me. I have quite a (un)healthy amount of string libraries and none of them are really able to emulate the _Japanese _string sound that I hear in a lot of my favorite anime/video games.
> 
> I am really looking forward to hearing more about this project and wish you the best of luck!!
> 
> ...


FYI you can comment on the actual intended specs instead as Andrew has already mentioned some of the specs you are talking about in previous posts.


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## hylionbi (Mar 7, 2021)

Tom Ferguson said:


> FYI you can comment on the actual intended specs instead as Andrew has already mentioned some of the specs you are talking about in previous posts.


Oh thanks!! I actually missed these earlier. I think that's a pretty solid list


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## constaneum (Mar 7, 2021)

looking forward to the release. i dont mind having 2nd expansion as long as the first release is great. =)


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## Tom Ferguson (Mar 8, 2021)

constaneum said:


> looking forward to the release. i dont mind having 2nd expansion as long as the first release is great. =)


Agreed! I'd rather just have super detailed 6x dyn layers w/ 10 transitions etc. legato only first (with certainly of the rest) rather than with lots of articulations but a skimped on legato (for ex.) personally.


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## Piotrek K. (Mar 16, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> By the way, currently, our articulation list looks like...
> 
> Sustains (vib, non-vib)
> Legato (upbow fingered, downbow fingered, upbow bow change, downbow bowchange)
> Portamento (several variations)


I would consider also 2-3 layers (even 2 dynamics will work) of molto vibrato. I feel this is a bit of a gap in a market, smaller, neutral ensemble with clear, detailed molto vibrato for those "in your face statements".


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 8, 2021)

Just a few days until the recording session!

With the amount of legato recording we're doing, it looks like we will have time for 3 dynamics there.

What 3 dynamics would you prioritize, and why?

I'm thinking:ff, mf, p.

My reasoning is that it's generally easier to make strings sound softer via filter/EQ (i.e. to add more granular detail based on modwheel/CC position) so this gets you just about the full range.

But I'm eager to hear your thoughts!


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## Vik (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> My reasoning is that it's generally easier to make strings sound softer via filter/EQ (i.e. to add more granular detail based on modwheel/CC position)


I have yet to hear a string library which can emulate the sound of soft playing with EQ or other tools. The sound of bowed strings instruments playing at a very low volume is very different from the the sound of someone who plays louder, but have had it's level reduced with CC11, CC7, equalising or something else.


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## mybadmemory (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Just a few days until the recording session!
> 
> With the amount of legato recording we're doing, it looks like we will have time for 3 dynamics there.
> 
> ...


Just a happy hobbyists opinion, but:

I feel that we already have many libraries covering the slower, softer, side of things? What's much harder to find are ones that can actually do faster agile, but at the same time soaring and romantic, playing that is quite common in Japanese melodies and soundtracks. I don't know, but perhaps this would mean leaning towards prioritising the upper range of the dynamics, rather than the lower if you have to choose? Less flautando and more molto-vibrato? Not sure if this is actually related to dynamics though, excuse my ignorance.


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## hylionbi (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Just a few days until the recording session!
> 
> With the amount of legato recording we're doing, it looks like we will have time for 3 dynamics there.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I believe that ff, mf, and p will cover most use cases and be the best ones to prioritize. I think specifically for legato, pp and lower is not necessary (but nice to have). As for the upper range, I think anything louder than ff is covered by a lot of libraries out there and kinda overkill.. I would rather have super soft legato instead of super loud legato (personally).


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## muziksculp (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> What 3 dynamics would you prioritize, and why?
> 
> I'm thinking:ff, mf, p.


Hi Andrew,

I think those 3 dyamics should be good enough.

If I could add a comment about Sustained/Legato articulations.

I find that having the players, especially the Violin Sections play the sustained notes with some emotion, and a nice amount of Vibrato to provide motion, and a nice rich colorful timbre is something I find important to capture in the recording sessions. This is also true for the Violas, and Celli, but I notice that it's more challenging to get the Violins to sound more emotional sounding when playing sustains/legatos.

This is an issue I'm experiencing with Orchestral Tools Berlin Symph. Strings VLNS 1 & 2, and also in quite a few of the VSL Strings Libraries. Especially their older ones.

I hope this helps.

Good Luck with the recording sessions.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Andrew Aversa (Apr 8, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi Andrew,
> 
> I think those 3 dyamics should be good enough.
> 
> ...


Indeed. In our test sessions I feel like we were able to get pretty good emotion (this was not in Japan), in part because we used backing tracks to help set the context for the pieces.


----------



## Tremendouz (Apr 8, 2021)

I'd say EQ/processing could be used to further soften the very low dynamics but that could be more of an enhancement to the p layer when using very low modwheel values (0-20?) rather than a replacement for the soft layer.


----------



## Tom Ferguson (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Just a few days until the recording session!
> 
> With the amount of legato recording we're doing, it looks like we will have time for 3 dynamics there.
> 
> ...


I'm unreasonably ridiculously excited about this library! Those dynamics sound good to me, really it's just whatever is going to facilitate playing most idiomatic to that japanese sound (since that is the whole MO with this library), and I think you and/or the musicians/technicians are going to have the best idea of what that entails. 

I guess one thing is I'd prefer 3 closer dynamics that smoothly transition between each other rather than 3 distant dynamics that have lots of weird no-mans land between them. It would maybe be better to get 3 closer dynamics that work perfectly and then potentially extend them out with proper PP/FFF layers later in further recording sessions (if that makes any sense? I'm haven't done sampling so I don't know if that kind of thing is easier said than done). I'm pretty sure what you are talking about should be fine though, probably!

Anyway, good luck! I'm genuinely more excited about this library than anything else at all haha


----------



## CT (Apr 8, 2021)

If you're talking about the dynamics of recorded intervals to be spliced between the more dynamic sustains, and not totally separate recordings for the legatos (in which case the range you mention is probably fine), then I think the most important consideration is that the quieter sustain dynamics have intervals that can blend well with them. So often you can tell when interval dynamics have been skimped on because the transitions jump out when playing quietly.


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 8, 2021)

Sustains have 5 dynamics, so the legato dynamics will be adjusted with volume & EQ to match sustains of the same level.


----------



## Vik (Apr 8, 2021)

Tom Ferguson said:


> I guess one thing is I'd prefer 3 closer dynamics that smoothly transition between each other rather than 3 distant dynamics that have lots of weird no-mans land between them. It would maybe be better to get 3 closer dynamics that work perfectly and then potentially extend them out with proper PP/FFF layers later in further recording sessions (if that makes any sense?).


....and: there are loads of libraries out there with three dyn layers already. My guess is that most of the soon 150 string libraries out there don't sell much, because too many of them more or less try to do the same thing. Many of them also suffer from the same short comings (too few round robins, not enough dynamic layers in the legatos, non-believable (legato, portamentos etc) transitions and so forth. So, any advice for decision making for a new string library would, I guess, need to relate to the big question: why is this library being created?

Some of the relatively new string libraries are somehow self-explaining (in terms if why they were made): Soaring Strings, for instance, was created at a point where not so many of the deeper and more expensive libraries covered 'passionate' playing. It's good in several ways, and has 5 dyn layers, so it can be very useful for even more quiet stuff but the legatos only has three dyn. layers, so – limited use, especially compared with I believe we'll see in upcoming string libraries. 

Maybe three closely related dyn. levels for legato would make more sense than the other solution, but again: that depends on the reason for making a new lib. One thing I personally miss, is a library which have great legatos etc in the quiet area – Spitfire, for instance have all the these con sardines, flautandos and sul tastos – but the legatos, to the degree they exist for such articulations in SF and other companies. are often limited. And those who aren't (Orchestral Tools Sul Tastos in EBPA/EXP B and in their new Sine based remake) have received a lot of good response. And I think your idea, Tom, makes sense, because I thing many rather would buy a library like the above mentioned OT Sul Tastos and buy more dyn. layers later, than investing in yet another standard string library unless it clearly offers something the others don't have.


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 8, 2021)

The "why" has to do with the players, studio, and engineer, none of whom have ever been sampled - plus some (hopefully) innovative techniques to produce a very musical result from the sessions.


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## ism (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Just a few days until the recording session!
> 
> With the amount of legato recording we're doing, it looks like we will have time for 3 dynamics there.
> 
> ...



Here's my thoughts - though absent any actual experience in sample string orchestras in Japan, this is inevitably a touch conjectural. 

But my experience with a lot of libraries is that the soft dynamics seem to be there to support the louder dynamics. Even if you have a nice p layer, you might struggle to find squeeze any significantly nuanced expression out of it at soft dynamics because the sampling, for whatever reason, is geared always towards that swell to the higher dynamics.

For instance, the Sound Iron choirs (Venus, Mercury) have nice soft layers on their own, but - exagurating for effect here - I just always feel it's as if they're only there just to have an excuse to swell to the higher dynamics, and that this is fundamentally the use case that motivates the entire library. Mostly I just experienced this as an angst that I couldn't put my finger on until I started using other libraries like for instance, Eric Whitacre Choir, or the Time Macro choirs - libraries in which nuance and expressiveness at soft dynamics are first class citizens.

Similarly with string libraries. The extreme contrast is Soaring Strings and the OT special bows Sul Tastos. Soaring strings is, just like it says on the tin, all about that soaring swell. The different sections feel like they're a basketball team, always collaborating towards scoring that next big climactic point. Even with 5 dynamic layers, the soft layers still only feel like the team is going on defence for a moment, but always looking an opening to make a break for it and score the next point.

This contrasts most strikingly to the OT Special Bows Sul Tastos. They have 3 dynamic layers, up to mf, and can be surprisingly loud and powerful for Sul tasto.

But the emotional effect of these strings isn't just the timbre and softness of the Sul Tasto articulation. It's a library designed for nuanced musicality. And the result is that I can write music in which the Violins and Violas and Cellos feel like they're, somehow, in empathy with each other, rather than merely trying to score the next point in a drive to (or retreat from) the f dynamic.

Again, no actual experience in sampling string orchestras in Japan to back this up ... but in that you're looking to produce something that isn't another CSS clone, but rather a library offering a unique and distinctive emotional quality ... how about something like p - mp - f , to really create the space for expressive nuance in the lower dynamics?

Particular if the p and mp layers contain very different nuances of performance (like OT Special Bows, or even Spitfire Studio Strings). This, in my estimation, is how my favourite string libraries get away with only having 3 dynamic layers. Honestly, strings crossfade pretty well, and I don't think I'm miss that mf layer nearly as much as I'd miss the mp layer. And I really think that a lot hinges on the p to mp crossfading.

And schematically at least, this is also what I love about the way the Eric Whitacre choir dynamics have been designed. I always crank the volume up to use mostly the two soft dynamic layers, and just dip into the loud layer occasionally. Which gives you dynamic range, and very nice power and volume when you need it, but also lots of space of real dynamic nuance to work with in the soft layers.

So what makes a Japanese orchestra special, and not yet another would-be CSS clone ... I'm thinking textural nuance in the softer layers? Anyone with me on this?


(Though I won't be offended it anything suggest that I really don't know anything about sampling string orchestras in Japan).


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## Sarah Mancuso (Apr 8, 2021)

It's worth noting that Andrew has clarified on Discord that the sustains will have five dynamics, and the three dynamics are solely for the legato transitions themselves, which will be processed (in-engine, I assume) to better match the additional sustains.


----------



## Tom Ferguson (Apr 8, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> It's worth noting that Andrew has clarified on Discord that the sustains will have five dynamics, and the three dynamics are solely for the legato transitions themselves, which will be processed (in-engine, I assume) to better match the additional sustains.


Yep, 5 dynamics sustains + 3 dynamics for the legato transitions sounds great to me!


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## constaneum (Apr 8, 2021)

The 3 dynamic layers for legato is fine with me. Most importantly is to have the legato, slur and timbre done right. Oh yeah, a rather clean samples plz. No coughing, whispering, ground stomping effects...I know some companies mentioned the liveness of things being added but imaging playing the same pizzicato notes and you keep hearing people coughing or stomping when doing an exposed lines. That's rather annoying. 😄


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## VSriHarsha (Apr 8, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> It's worth noting that Andrew has clarified on Discord that the sustains will have five dynamics, and the three dynamics are solely for the legato transitions themselves, which will be processed (in-engine, I assume) to better match the additional sustains.


What’s Discord? Another forum of VI Control ? I didn’t know that. I’ll check, in the meanwhile.


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## VSriHarsha (Apr 8, 2021)

Well, it’ll be more flexible, if every articulation has 4 dynamic levels (pp, p, mf & f). I think that would really cover almost all kinds of passages, with just minimal amount of tweaking.


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## Wunderhorn (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> I'm thinking:ff, mf, p.
> 
> My reasoning is that it's generally easier to make strings sound softer via filter/EQ (i.e. to add more granular detail based on modwheel/CC position) so this gets you just about the full range.


I beg to differ.

No, you can't simulate _ppp_ with volume/EQ/filters. Absolutely not.
This is one of my biggest gripes with string libraries - they almost all ignore a proper _ppp_ layer. And by that I mean not just low velocity/volume, but also s-l-o-o-o-w bowing to the point of the sound becoming unstable and a bit scratchy. Of course that is probably a challenge to cross-fade into the next dynamic layer. But please do yourself a favor and listen to the very end of Mahler's 9th symphony. Then you know what the low end of the dynamic range should look (sound) like.


----------



## CT (Apr 8, 2021)

Wunderhorn said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> No, you can't simulate _ppp_ with volume/EQ/filters. Absolutely not.
> This is one of my biggest gripes with string libraries - they almost all ignore a proper _ppp_ layer. And by that I mean not just low velocity/volume, but also s-l-o-o-o-w bowing to the point of the sound becoming unstable and a bit scratchy. Of course that is probably a challenge to cross-fade into the next dynamic layer. But please do yourself a favor and listen to the very end of Mahler's 9th symphony. Then you know what the low end of the dynamic range should look (sound) like.


Agreed. Unfortunately, developers don't have unlimited time and money to make these libraries, so concessions are inevitably made, which are possibly not the concessions we'd opt for if we were in the driver's seat. Oh well!


----------



## Raphioli (Apr 8, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Agreed. Unfortunately, developers don't have unlimited time and money to make these libraries, so concessions are inevitably made, which are possibly not the concessions we'd opt for if we were in the driver's seat. Oh well!


I agree. You have to considering what this library aims for.
Its aiming for that Japanese anime/game/film strings sound.
In that regard, the choice of dynamics make sense.


----------



## constaneum (Apr 8, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> I agree. You have to considering what this library aims for.
> Its aiming for that Japanese anime/game/film strings sound.
> In that regard, the choice of dynamics make sense.


Yes. That's why to me as long as the sound is captured right, I don't mind. If i need to go for something else which is softer or louder dynamics, I don't mind opting for something else. I just want and wish the sound of the infamous Japanese strings is done right.


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## Raphioli (Apr 8, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> I'm thinking:ff, mf, p.


I think the choice of dynamics is right, considering this library is for getting that strings sound we hear in many Japanese soundtracks.

When reading some other posts/requests regarding dynamics, I felt like some people weren't really talking about this library having what this library aims for in mind.
This library isn't aiming to be the next SSS or BS or MSS.
Its a library which is going to be tailored for that Japanese soundtrack sound.
In other words, this isn't a library which aims for a classical or Hollywood film score-ish sound.

When having Japanese soundtracks in mind, I can't imagine myself using a legato transition in ppp. I'd probably be fine with a regular sustain patch for ppp.
For people who want ppp legato transitions, I'm curious which specific Japanese soundtrack you have in mind.


----------



## Wunderhorn (Apr 8, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Agreed. Unfortunately, developers don't have unlimited time and money to make these libraries, so concessions are inevitably made, which are possibly not the concessions we'd opt for if we were in the driver's seat. Oh well!


If any company wants to do another workhorse string library then they will have to add a considerable amount of extra time and money to go the extra mile to give us something that hasn't been done a 100 times before. After I went from LASS to MSS (yes, I like it) I am set for a while and I am able to cover a lot of ground. And MSS did give us some novelties, some of that extra-mile stuff. Whoever comes next will have to put out far beyond that in order to get me interested in spending money again.

BTW. I wasn't aware that this one discussed here had a specific aim for anime soundtracks, OK, then I won't keep on banging that drum here (except for the fact that you can't filter a regular _p_ layer into _ppp_, no way, maybe the only fake way is to use something like Paulstretch, but I haven't tried this out on strings and either way you'd loose quality)


----------



## CT (Apr 8, 2021)

Wunderhorn said:


> If any company wants to do another workhorse string library then they will have to add a considerable amount of extra time and money to go the extra mile to give us something that hasn't been done a 100 times before.


Well, I agree with this too... but I'm really trying to be open to whatever new stuff is on the horizon, and to not completely hate virtual instruments as a whole... though I'm failing at that right now.


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## Ihnoc (Apr 9, 2021)

Sarah Mancuso said:


> It's worth noting that Andrew has clarified on Discord that the sustains will have five dynamics, and the three dynamics are solely for the legato transitions themselves, which will be processed (in-engine, I assume) to better match the additional sustains.


This library sounds right up my street! Is there a name/link to said Discord? Sounds like fun!


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 9, 2021)

Sarah is referring to the VI-Control Discord which you can access here:









Join the VI Composers Discord Server!


Composers and sample library enthusiasts of all persuasions | 1,517 members




discord.gg





Regarding the intent and sound of the library, I wouldn't say it is _exclusively_ meant for anime-style scores, but the goal is certainly to allow for agile, spirited, and emotional playing. 

@Wunderhorn - I appreciate your feedback. I realize of course that in a perfect world you record every dynamic layer and do not use any filtering at all to simulate ones you don't have. 

My point is only that, based on my experience, if you have any given dynamic layer (say... mf), it is generally more convincing to reduce its perceived dynamic by way of EQ/filter/volume attenuation. So mf -> pp for example, while not perfect, will likely sound more accurate than mf somehow boosted to -> ff.

Simulating more aggressive dynamics is quite difficult and also presents noise problems. You have to add brightness and harmonics at a minimum, but that will accentuate the noise floor as well.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 9, 2021)

Scalms said:


> Man tough call! can't we get it all, i can't choose, lol
> 
> Honestly I would like to see more dynamic layers and round robins, especially more vibrato layers that we can crossfade between with slight variation between them. Maybe with something like 5 dynamic layers with 5 vibrato layers both increasing as you head towards FF. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud now.
> 
> ...


I rarely ever use full ensemble patches when orchestrating anything, it's pretty much the antithesis of 'movement' in composition.

I suppose they are quite useful for more generic trailer type pieces, but to be frank I feel like we already have enough of that in the world


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## muk (Apr 10, 2021)

Wunderhorn said:


> This is one of my biggest gripes with string libraries - they almost all ignore a proper _ppp_ layer. And by that I mean not just low velocity/volume, but also s-l-o-o-o-w bowing to the point of the sound becoming unstable and a bit scratchy. Of course that is probably a challenge to cross-fade into the next dynamic layer.



It is also very difficult to record because of the noise floor. You need a good signal chain, and even then noises are an issue. Someone shuffling their will be almost as loud as the signal you try to capture. The studio needs to be extremely well isolated to block any external noises like police/fire siren etc. That's why VSL built their Silent Stage so they could capture even very quiet signals efficiently.
Then comes post processing, which is more difficult as well. The signal to noise ratio will be very low due to quiet signal. If you boost the signal, you will also boost the noise floor accordingly. 

To me, a true pp layer is important too. And I agree that emulating it with eq/filters does not sound the same as real recordings. It is a compromise that isn't ideal. But I do understand why most developers take that route. The benefit of having true pianissimo samples probably doesn't justify the cost of recording and post processing them in most cases.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 10, 2021)

muk said:


> The benefit of having true pianissimo samples probably doesn't justify the cost of recording and post processing them in most cases.


Unless you're Hans Zimmer 

I also count myself among the 'quiet is beautiful' crowd and am very fond of cranking pp/ppp sounds to 11, and I do agree that the technical reasons you outlined are a major reason we don't have many of them in commercial offerings.

Hell, most of Cinesample's older libraries have noise issues even at mp/mf levels in the maner you described.

Spitfire in particular seem quite good at quiet samples when they want to be, with the Albion V low-level dynamics being a shining example.

It's interesting that AIR lyndhurst is right beside a road in London, but you'd never know it to listen to those pp/ppp samples in that library - it must be remarkably well sound-proofed.


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## ism (Apr 10, 2021)

Well, a jump between p to mf is certainly a popular and valid design choice.

But it fundamentally makes for a completely different expressivity of an instrument, and I really don't believe that any amount of eq or other technical jiggery pokery to fake pp or mp is going to change that fundamental musicality of the instrument. 

I guess I don't really understand the Japanese anime ethos - intuitively I would have guesses there would me a softer focus. 

But still - very much looking forward to learning more about what this ethos is when this library appears.


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## Sarah Mancuso (Apr 10, 2021)

ism said:


> I guess I don't really understand the Japanese anime ethos - intuitively I would have guesses there would me a softer focus.


Agile, emotive, and melody-focused is the aim here, I believe. I recall the Octopath Traveler OST being cited as an inspiration for it. I wouldn't expect Tokyo Scoring Strings to be a soft textural library.


----------



## ism (Apr 10, 2021)

Will check that one out. 

(I’m quite fascinated by the possibilities here, I just don’t know much about them  )


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## Hannes_F (Apr 10, 2021)

"Do you prefer having true recordings of violins 1 + 2"

And for one moment I thought this thread would be about having really true recordings of violins 1 + 2.
Like, real recordings. Live strings. Ha!


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 11, 2021)

Recording begins tonight. Wish us all luck!


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## muziksculp (Apr 11, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Recording begins tonight. Wish us all luck!


Hi Andrew,

Awesome ! 

Wish You, the players, and the production team lots of good luck, and a great time developing this Strings library, please keep updating us here. 

Love your concept of keeping us informed, and involved in the process.  

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Sarah Mancuso (Apr 11, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Recording begins tonight. Wish us all luck!


Exciting! I hope everything goes smoothly.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Apr 11, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Recording begins tonight. Wish us all luck!


Good luck. Maybe post some photos, if possible?


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## mybadmemory (Apr 11, 2021)

Best wishes! Can't wait to hear some results, and potentially get my hands on it later!


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## ism (Apr 11, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Recording begins tonight. Wish us all luck!


Excited for this! 


And hey, just saying, but just in case you find yourselves with some extra time to kill, how's about a few of extra dynamic layers in the ppp - p range?


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## Thorgod10 (Apr 18, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Recording begins tonight. Wish us all luck!


You are the chosen one.
The bringer of the most STUDIO of strings to ever be sampled!


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 18, 2021)

ism said:


> Excited for this!
> 
> 
> And hey, just saying, but just in case you find yourselves with some extra time to kill, how's about a few of extra dynamic layers in the ppp - p range?


Sustains and shorts bottom out at pianissimo, that's not bad right?


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## Toecutter (Apr 18, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Recording begins tonight. Wish us all luck!


hey Andrew, this is very exciting! Any details you could share about the recordings?


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## muziksculp (Apr 18, 2021)

Hi Andrew,

I always find it very useful to have a Niente option for the Dynamics Control. 

It would be great if you can make this option available in the library. 

Thanks.


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## ism (Apr 18, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Sustains and shorts bottom out at pianissimo, that's not bad right?


I'll take it!


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 18, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> hey Andrew, this is very exciting! Any details you could share about the recordings?


Just two sessions left to go and we are on track to record everything we set out to do. We might even get some ht/wt trills in there too.


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## rottoy (Apr 18, 2021)




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## MatthewHarnage (Apr 18, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Just two sessions left to go and we are on track to record everything we set out to do. We might even get some ht/wt trills in there too.


Ah can't wait to hear it!!


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## Toecutter (Apr 19, 2021)

Andrew Aversa said:


> Just two sessions left to go and we are on track to record everything we set out to do. We might even get some ht/wt trills in there too.


Thanks! ISW libraries are so playable and natural sounding, especially Ventus and the guitars, use them all the time. I can't wait to hear what you have cooking


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## Andrew Aversa (Apr 19, 2021)

ht/wt f/p trills, confirmed. Finishing tonight and then it's a wrap!


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## Sarah Mancuso (Apr 19, 2021)

Congrats! Great to hear things are going so well.


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## jason3.14 (Apr 23, 2021)

So PUMPED for this!


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## jason3.14 (Apr 23, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm listening to *Octapath Traveler* Soundtrack (2018) by Yasunori Nishiki.
> 
> Awesome Strings, and the entire recording quality, and mix are fabulous.
> 
> ...


on the right OCTOpath


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## platixzhang (Apr 24, 2021)

I am so eager for it. Will there be TSB, TSW too? I'd love to create mockups like octopath traveler. The tight and dense sound is just so beautiful.


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