# Setting up VE PRO



## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 7, 2015)

I am fairly new to VE PRO and I am still not using it. I use Vienna Ensemble to load VSL and everything else is inside Cubase.

But soon, I will be adding a slave. So, I have a few tech questions about setting it up efficiently. It will be great if people who are using it can share how it works best for them.

Here is the plan in short:

** One Master DAW (Cubase on Win 7) with 32 GB RAM. *

** One Slave Win 7 machine with 64 GB RAM. *

I am planning to get RME MADI PCIe 2.0 Card for the Master machine.

Questions:

*1.* How well does Audio over LAN work with VE PRO? I will need at least 64 Channels output as I want to work in surround. Is it better to get a sound card locked with Word Clock or it works fine over the network? There has been some talk of separate 10Gbps network cards. So, I would have to buy two of those on both machines. 

I could either get 2 X RME MADI cards or 2 X 10Gbps LAN cards.

I will also have an Antelope Audio Orion 32 as the AD-DA in between. So, I use RME for the drivers and Orion 32 for the conversion. 

I am still reading up but it seems that with the RME MADI and Orion 32, I should be able to daisy chain all three (2 X RME MADI, Master & Slave + Orion 32) and I/O can be routed anywhere. Apparently, they can work as routers themselves. Alternatively, I might have to get a RME MADI Router if this is not possible but only if I connect the slave via MADI and not on LAN. 

Is _clocking_ going to be an issue? There is no other digital connection in this system as of now. There will be a monitor controller from Dangerous Music ST/SR but that is analogue.

*2.* What do you use for keyboard & mouse switching? Are you using KVM? Or using some kind of remote access software? I could add another monitor for the slave leaving only the Keyboard & Mouse via KVM. What KVM products work well for our use? I have checked out some stuff from Adder and I/O Gear. 

*Scalability:* In the future I may add another machine for hosting some synths and effects via VE PRO if the set-up gets complicated. Will two slave machines still work well over LAN or do you guys still use sound cards for this? If I do use MADI for a second slave, I think I will definitely need a MADI Router. 

Any help will be greatly appreciated. I am mostly concerned about latency and clocking issues. With LAN, I can get even more I/O but will be limited to 64 Channels in the MADI card. I know its a lot of I/O but with surround, things become slightly more complex. The set-up must be rock solid and very dependable as I score movies on a regular basis and obviously, I don't want to compromise on this. So, I am looking hear the best solutions that have worked for you, without cost being a factor - within reason of course  


Thank you!


Tanuj.

[/u]


----------



## Daryl (Mar 7, 2015)

If you are using VEP, why are you getting a soundcard for the slave?

D


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 7, 2015)

Daryl,

That is one of my questions in fact. Is there any evidence to suggest that VEP works better with a sound card compared to LAN?

Will it be more stable with a sound card or it runs just as well over network? 

Also, keeping in mind latency. 

If LAN works really well, I would be very happy as I will save the money on the sound card and get even more I/O and flexibility. 

There has been some talk about dedicated PCIe 10Gbps cards recently suggesting that VEP works really well over such cards. 

I might anyway have to get these if I wanted to add another slave in the future as motherboards only have the one input.


Tanuj.


----------



## Daryl (Mar 7, 2015)

Tanuj Tiku @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> Daryl,
> 
> That is one of my questions in fact. Is there any evidence to suggest that VEP works better with a sound card compared to LAN?
> 
> ...


I think that it will be dependent on circumstance,but it would be very cheap to test and it would be a shame to spend loads of dosh on soundcard you don't need. Regarding latency, it may we add something to this, but it a depends on what sot of latency you're happy with.



Tanuj Tiku @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> There has been some talk about dedicated PCIe 10Gbps cards recently suggesting that VEP works really well over such cards.
> 
> I might anyway have to get these if I wanted to add another slave in the future as motherboards only have the one input.
> 
> Tanuj.


I think Martin had something to say about this, and it wasn't pretty. However, it might be worth doing a search to see if you can find the post in question.

D


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Mar 7, 2015)

Tanuj Tiku @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> Daryl,
> 
> That is one of my questions in fact. Is there any evidence to suggest that VEP works better with a sound card compared to LAN?


Hey Tanuj,

My understanding is VEPro is designed to work over LAN only. If you want to use a soundcard on the slave, you are looking at a different kind of implementation altogether - for example MIDIOverLAN or even Apple's built-in MIDI routing over LAN. If you go down that path, you will definitely need to sync to a master clock and do your own audio routing.

If you go with VEPro, it handles all sync issues for you (DAW and slaves) and routes the audio seamlessly back over the network. At speeds of 1Gbps, it can handle quite a bit of audio, but I am sure there is eventually a breaking point. I don't know what that is, but 64 channels of audio does not sound frightening.

I remember a previous thread where member Bill Thompson (wst3) actually gave some statistics on how many audio channels could be handled at various bus speeds. I think the conversation was actually about USB / Thunderbolt / etc, but the same could also be applied to LAN. I will see if I can dig up that thread... it might prove useful.

VEPro is a terrific product and I think you will be pleased with it. It is a 'game changer' in every sense of the word - no marketing hype... it's just that useful.

Daryl is right about the 10Gbps network cards... there was a recent thread where Martin Salateg (VSL dev) mentioned some problems with either firmware or motherboards that was making those cards unusable. Of course, it is just a matter of time before those issues are sorted, but it is no fun to be a beta tester in the meantime. :D 

Best,
Marc


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Mar 7, 2015)

Hey Tanuj,

Here is the post I mentioned earlier... I hope it is helpful.

Cheers,
Marc



wst3 said:


> At the risk of annoying many...
> 
> There are literally dozens of factors that play a role in the final latency of an audio path, but the source is not one of them.
> 
> ...


----------



## Daryl (Mar 7, 2015)

marclawsonmusic @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> My understanding is VEPro is designed to work over LAN only.


There is a VEP standalone, which would need MIDI input (something like MOL, as you mention) and a soundcard.

D


----------



## FriFlo (Mar 7, 2015)

Mind that you will probably need one Madi FX on the master machine for using 64 channels of audio for VE pro slave channels. You cannot use two different audio cards within Asio inside Cubase at the same time and where will you take the channels for your converter from? 
It would be possible to use two normal madi cards, but one made FX card has a pretty decent price point for 3 made streams and is less expensive than two normal madi cards. This way you can even run two slaves with a madi card with 64 channels each. Actually, you can get those RME madi cards pretty cheap on eBay. I did have some problems with VEpro, which kept me from work, so I went with this solution about 3 years ago. But then again, this was a Mac master and two windows slaves.
Now I am on PC only, so with the advent of 10be I am also reconsidering, but VSL did not reply to that thread:
http://vsl.co.at/community/posts/t39079 ... post235106
Neither did anyone answer to it, so I guess, most people seem to be pretty fine with the current channel count and latency. IMO it is decent for most kind of work. But with 10GbE, you could reach a channel count, where you don't have to think about reaching any limit, which seems desirable to me ...


----------



## Daryl (Mar 7, 2015)

FriFlo @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> You cannot use two different audio cards within Asio inside Cubase at the same time.......


However, you can use up to 3 RME cards at the same time.

D


----------



## Daryl (Mar 7, 2015)

OK, so here is the thread where Martin had some views:

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ight=10gbe

D


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 7, 2015)

I guess its better to check how everything works over LAN first and then decide if I need a sound card for the slave.

Friflo,
The Orion 32 will not work as a sound card. It will just be used as a stand alone converter. 

The RME MADI or MADI FX will be connected via MADI to Orion 32. Within Orion I can choose which I/O I want to use. Simultaneous analogue and digital I/O can be used.

And as Daryl has mentioned upto 3 RME cards can be used on a single system.

For the latency while playing in the parts, I can still be tolerant but I do not want any timing issues whatsoever while printing of course. That is a problematic area. 

The sound card is not only for latency while triggering MIDI but also during printing. That is why I am investigating whether a Master clock synced with a sound card is a better option. 


Thank you for replying! Its great to hear from people who are using VEP. 


Tanuj.


----------



## reddognoyz (Mar 7, 2015)

I recently purchased a PC slave from VisionDaw and they recommended a 10gig video card which I got and am using with a crossover cable to my mac.


----------



## FriFlo (Mar 10, 2015)

I know. That's why I wrote, it is not possible to use multiple DIFFERENT audio interfaces within asio. I just wanted to be sure, you realize that.
Stuart, what the heck are you talking about? A 10Gb video card? We are talking about network cables here!


----------



## stonzthro (Mar 10, 2015)

holy smokes - a 10 GB video card on a slave!?!


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Mar 10, 2015)

stonzthro @ Tue Mar 10 said:


> holy smokes - a 10 GB video card on a slave!?!


I'm going to wager he's talking about a 10GbE network card, not a 10GB video card.


----------



## JohnG (Mar 10, 2015)

Hi Tanuj,

I don't use the VE Pro network but I do use VE Pro on all my machines. At least a few years ago, you couldn't have more than two or three slaves with VE Pro and still expect the audio and midi to work, plus I already owned all the hardware.

Today, I'm not so sure that's a good idea. As solid as it is (a bit fiddly now and then but it works), I don't like the idea of depending indefinitely on MidiOverLAN, a third party, niche bit of software.

Ok -- now for Total, Unsubstantiated Superstition

Irrationally, and with no evidence whatsoever, I continue to assume that there's a limit to the VE Pro network approach. If you write a giant, no-holds-barred piece, strings all over, winds all over, percussion going crazy and big brass, plus a ton of synths pulsing around, will all those notes and audio push things too far? Will the midi "swim" around a little, or the audio?

Probably not, but...

Over time, I will shrink the number of slaves, since you can fit so much more on one now than you could a while ago, so VE Pro will become viable for the setup I'm accustomed to. But I keep wondering -- right now everything works. Why change?


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 14, 2015)

Thanks for sharing your experience John. 

I have the same doubts about the reliability of such a system. 

For now, I am only going to use one salve. I may add another one in the future if I need it. One slave should be good enough for me right now. 

Another question I have is how are you interfacing with your slaves? 

Are you using a KVM switching system? 

But also, what do you do about the monitor? 

Like I said, Adder has a new solution in which you could simply drag your mouse over to the other computer screen seamlessly with their KVM switch. 

How are you guys doing with the monitor switching etc?


Tanuj.


----------



## antoniopandrade (Mar 14, 2015)

Hi Tanuj,

I handle a similar setup using Cubase on a Mac pro with a Madi fx as the main sound card feeding an Orion32 which is used as converter and as master clock. It clocks the sequencer rig, clocks two PC slaves using rme madi cards and a protools he madi rig perfectly, no issues whatsoever. There's a small amount of latency, but it's just a matter of setting pre-delays on your cubase midi tracks. 100% rock solid for 1 year and a half now.


----------



## wcreed51 (Mar 14, 2015)

> How are you guys doing with the monitor switching etc? 

Access the slave via Remote Desktop or equivalent.


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Mar 14, 2015)

Tanuj Tiku @ Sat Mar 14 said:


> Another question I have is how are you interfacing with your slaves?
> 
> Are you using a KVM switching system?
> 
> But also, what do you do about the monitor?


I use VNC. There is a free version that works on Mac or PC.

https://www.realvnc.com/products/vnc/


----------



## JohnG (Mar 14, 2015)

I use an old KVM switch that can accommodate 8 computers. "Runs good" as they say.

I would guess that software solutions are very solid at this point, so doubt that I would recommend my approach.

(sorry it took so long to answer -- didn't realise the question was there)


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 14, 2015)

antoniopandrade @ Sat Mar 14 said:


> Hi Tanuj,
> 
> I handle a similar setup using Cubase on a Mac pro with a Madi fx as the main sound card feeding an Orion32 which is used as converter and as master clock. It clocks the sequencer rig, clocks two PC slaves using rme madi cards and a protools he madi rig perfectly, no issues whatsoever. There's a small amount of latency, but it's just a matter of setting pre-delays on your cubase midi tracks. 100% rock solid for 1 year and a half now.



Antonio, 

That's great to hear! I am planning on a very similar system but the connections are not so straightforward to me as I am new to this world with MADI.

How are doing so many I/O connections with those cards? What would be the correct way to daisy chain this system? Are you using a MADI Router?

I have attached a flow chart that I think would be the correct signal flow. But, I am a little confused about the MADI daisy chain connections whereby I can freely route all signals.

For example, a MADI out will have to go from Master DAW MADI FX to the Orion 32 but it also needs to go to the Pro Tools rig. Does this mean, you have to send it via Orion 32? 

Also, when you say Pre-delay, do you mean a negative MIDI delay? Is the audio seamless? I am concerned about tracks not lining up when printing audio to the Pro Tools rig.

Any help will be greatly appreciated! 


Thanks!


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 15, 2015)

JohnG @ Sun Mar 15 said:


> I use an old KVM switch that can accommodate 8 computers. "Runs good" as they say.
> 
> I would guess that software solutions are very solid at this point, so doubt that I would recommend my approach.
> 
> (sorry it took so long to answer -- didn't realise the question was there)




Thanks John...yeah software seems to be working for some people. I am however a bit old school in some respects. Physical dedicated connections via a Pro KVM switch might be more reliable. 

But, I have to really look into the facts here.

Still investigating!


Tanuj.


----------



## wcreed51 (Mar 15, 2015)

I've never used a KVM that didn't degrade the video. Maybe things have changed, but I have my doubts.


----------

