# The Last Jedi



## A3D2

Hi everyone!

Did anyone here see The Last Jedi yet? I won't spoil anything for you guys, just wanted to share that I really really really loved it and the soundtrack as well. John did an amazing job as usual, incredible composer . He's a living legend! I can't wait for episode 9 

Has anyone read anything yet about a possible The Last Jedi vinyl release? Because I'd love to own it on vinyl instead of a CD


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## Light and Sound

I was at the midnight release, I loved it. Mr Williams is quite the man! I have a signed vinyl of episode iv, he even doodled the star wars main theme on it for me!


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## Iskra

Light and Sound said:


> I have a signed vinyl of episode iv, he even doodled the star wars main theme on it for me!


Pic or it didn't happened


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## Light and Sound

Iskra said:


> Pic or it didn't happened


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## A3D2

Light and Sound said:


>


@Light and Sound Wow! You are a very lucky man to have met him . That's also really nice of him to sign your vinyl!


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## Iskra

@Light and Sound , Wonderful!!!!!!!


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## Light and Sound

There do seem to be some postings of Vinyl as upcoming for the OST, though nothing solid. I'm sure there will be eventually


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## krops

I absolutely loved it. And a couple of musical throwbacks to the original trilogy really made me grin!


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## Oliver

well i have to hang in here too.
i wrote him in the early 80ies when i was a young boy directly to his agency in hollywood (i think it was William Morris back then) and got this back.
it stucks on my walls since this time and i am very proud of it!
He is my all time musical hero and will ever be!


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## Oliver

well and his signature definitley changed over thirtyfive years! :-D


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## Alex Fraser

Seeing the film to tomorrow and chomping at the bit to hear the soundtrack. It should be available on Apple Music/Spotify on the day of release. TFA was anyhow.

Strange that reviews of TLJ haven't really mentioned the score, only that it's another sterling effort as if there was any question. The track listing is available elsewhere on the interwebs if you go wandering down darker alleyways.

Here's hoping JW closes out the trilogy.


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## synthpunk

Matinee Sunday with my son. Were looking forward to it. We may go back and see it again in the evening


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## John Busby

Friday morning IMAX, cannot wait!


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## Light and Sound

Alex Fraser said:


> Seeing the film to tomorrow and chomping at the bit to hear the soundtrack. It should be available on Apple Music/Spotify on the day of release. TFA was anyhow.
> 
> Strange that reviews of TLJ haven't really mentioned the score, only that it's another sterling effort as if there was any question. The track listing is available elsewhere on the interwebs if you go wandering down darker alleyways.
> 
> Here's hoping JW closes out the trilogy.



I really wanted to try listening to the score closely, but honestly if you're a big star wars fan as I am, you won't be able to on first viewing. Just enjoy the film the first time round (I'll be going back anyway!), I won't go in to details for fear of spoiling but you likely won't want to spare the brain power on first viewing to think about the music in too much depth. The music gets its moments though - and JW doesn't disappoint when he's clearly given freedom to let loose.


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## chillbot

My wife's 40th birthday is opening night (tomorrow) so I rented out a 130-seat theater for us and all of her friends to see it together. Going to be epic.


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## Alex Fraser

Light and Sound said:


> I really wanted to try listening to the score closely, but honestly if you're a big star wars fan as I am, you won't be able to on first viewing. Just enjoy the film the first time round (I'll be going back anyway!), I won't go in to details for fear of spoiling but you likely won't want to spare the brain power on first viewing to think about the music in too much depth. The music gets its moments though - and JW doesn't disappoint when he's clearly given freedom to let loose.


Good advice! Can't wait to see it.
Taking the family tomorrow. I fully expect my first viewing to be full of distractions anyway, as the 2.5 hour runtime won't go down well with my 4 year old. But, I expect the soundtrack to be online by the time I get back. So, that one's for me.

And then I'll go see the movie again (and quite possibly again) by myself.


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## Alex Fraser

chillbot said:


> My wife's 40th birthday is opening night (tomorrow) so I rented out a 130-seat theater for us and all of her friends to see it together. Going to be epic.


Can I come? I'll bring my own popcorn and sit in the corner...


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## A3D2

I also


johnbusbymusic said:


> Friday morning IMAX, cannot wait!


@johnbusbymusic Enjoy!


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## A3D2

synthpunk said:


> Matinee Sunday with my son. Were looking forward to it. We may go back and see it again in the evening


@synthpunk I'm also going to see it a second time on sunday with my sister.  I definitely need to see it a second time, lots of details


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## A3D2

Light and Sound said:


> There do seem to be some postings of Vinyl as upcoming for the OST, though nothing solid. I'm sure there will be eventually


@Light and Sound I hope so  I just love music on vinyl


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## A3D2

Oliver said:


> well i have to hang in here too.
> i wrote him in the early 80ies when i was a young boy directly to his agency in hollywood (i think it was William Morris back then) and got this back.
> it stucks on my walls since this time and i am very proud of it!
> He is my all time musical hero and will ever be!


@Oliver Wow that's so cool. I'd love to send a fan letter myself, but I wouldn't know where to send it to?


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## MichaelM

Can't wait to see and hear it! I remember when they used to release soundtracks way in advance and everyone knew what the movie was going to be about based on the whole track listing of the soundtrack. I specifically remember picking up episode 2 soundtrack at tower records (with like the 4 different covers), a few weeks before the movie came out.


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## synthpunk

Just to help everyone get in the mood


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## whinecellar

Light and Sound said:


> I have a signed vinyl of episode iv, he even doodled the star wars main theme on it for me!



Man, I envy the score doodle! While we’re show-and-telling our JW treasures, here’s mine. I sent him a copy of my recent score record back in September after seeing him with the Nashville Symphony, along with a thank you letter for his years of inspiration. I got this back a week later - he signed my liner notes! It's now my favorite studio decoration along with pics from that night. He is a gem of a human being!


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## A3D2

whinecellar said:


> Man, I envy the score doodle! While we’re show-and-telling our JW treasures, here’s mine. I sent him a copy of my recent score record back in September after seeing him with the Nashville Symphony, along with a thank you letter for his years of inspiration. I got this back a week later - he signed my liner notes! It's now my favorite studio decoration along with pics from that night. He is a gem of a human being!


@whinecellar Hi Jim! If I'd like to send JW a letter, do you have any advice on where to send it to? I'd love to join the JW Treasures-group


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Wow, all this signed stuff from John..did I miss something? Man..I am jealous..no, it is great that he does that. Really happy to see that.


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## synthpunk

Very nice of you Mr. Chill.



chillbot said:


> My wife's 40th birthday is opening night (tomorrow) so I rented out a 130-seat theater for us and all of her friends to see it together. Going to be epic.


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## Alex Fraser

Heads up. The soundtrack is now available on Apple Music and presumably other streaming services etc.


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## Tanuj Tiku

I have only heard a few cues fully last night but its a very exciting score. Lots of movement and themes all over.

There is at least one new theme that I picked up.

It is unbelievable to me that John Williams still writes with the virtuosity and heart today at the age of 85 as he did earlier in his career. He is truly inspirational.

One of the things likable immediately is the little twists and turns to all the themes, new and old. Some very nice new cues that I liked.

The only thing I did not like was a fade out from one theme into Leia's theme in the finale track. That is a very bad fade and seems like a sudden kill from full orchestra to piano. Not cool on a John Williams soundtrack. The guys in charge should have done a better job.

Edits are not unusual in some John Williams's works but they have been done rather well in the past.

Anyway, maestro Williams once again delivers a great score. Whether you like the themes and the sound of LA musicians etc is another topic but there is no denying the man's great, thunderous musical talent!


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## AlexRuger

Saw the movie last night. Mostly loved it, and the score was absolutely top-notch, definitely in my top three favorite Star Wars scores. Really made up for The Force Awakens, which was imo a relatively underwhelming score as far as JW goes (that isn't to say it's bad by any means...far better than anything I could ever do, but it just didn't blow me away like usual).


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## Hannes_F

Saw the movie, loved it. Congratulations to everybody involved! I loved the music (but obviously forgot to explicitly listen to it many times). I feel very many excellent and careful decisions have gone into the book and the making of this one.


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## A3D2

Went to see it again on Sunday and this time I could pay more attention to the music and how it interacts with the movie: I also think he delivered amazing work. Williams at his best  Hope he gets well-deserved awards for this score!


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## synthpunk

We saw it Sunday and enjoyed it. Not sure where all these bad Rotten Tomatoes reviews are coming from. Going to see it again Monday.


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## CT

I thought the movie was more enjoyable than the last one. I really like the new "religioso" type music that Luke got!


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## YuHirà

A revealing anecdote about the process, from Rian Johnson in the podcast "Soundtracking with Edith Bowman":

_When we were editing, we had a very talented music editor, Jo[seph] Bonn, who cut a temp score out of John’s previous scores and we basically temped using John Williams music. And then basically we gave that temp score to John and that was our spotting session. You know, a spotting session is usually when you sit down with the composer and talk through what you want. I didn’t do that with John, I just gave him our temp score and said this is generally the shape. And then John took that and sometimes he went with it, sometimes he deviated from it but he just did his thing: and the first time I heard any of the music John had written was when we were on the scoring stage and the hundred-piece orchestra was playing it._​


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## zolhof

Just watched the movie and thought it had some amazing moments. The score was a show-stealer, I'm still pumped by all those horns blasting my ears off!! 

What a legend, 85yo and still delivering one of the most intense and vigorous scores in recent years. Now THAT is epic!


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## synthpunk

Don't forget to stay until the ending credits, the music is great, we were the last one's out


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## dcoscina

YuHirà said:


> A revealing anecdote about the process, from Rian Johnson in the podcast "Soundtracking with Edith Bowman":
> 
> _When we were editing, we had a very talented music editor, Jo[seph] Bonn, who cut a temp score out of John’s previous scores and we basically temped using John Williams music. And then basically we gave that temp score to John and that was our spotting session. You know, a spotting session is usually when you sit down with the composer and talk through what you want. I didn’t do that with John, I just gave him our temp score and said this is generally the shape. And then John took that and sometimes he went with it, sometimes he deviated from it but he just did his thing: and the first time I heard any of the music John had written was when we were on the scoring stage and the hundred-piece orchestra was playing it._​


And therein lies the problem. Williams is old school and probably could have used a good old time to chat with Johnson about the storyline, character development, overall dramatic arc that would have helped him in creating a dynamic and developed score. Due to this frankly lazy move on the part of the director, it left the composer with an amalgam of his own previous work to draw from and that's why, for me, the score sounded like needle dropping or that a music editor basically stitched together the score. I was disappointed with both film and score and this is coming from a lifelong fan (I was 9 when I saw ANH in theatres in 1977). Criticize TFA all you want for its derivative narrative structure from Ep. 4 but I listened to Williams' score to this back to back with TLJ and Force Awakens had a much better constructed score with new themes, and variations that seemed woven into the fabric of the music rather than simply quoted verbatim.


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## Prockamanisc

As long as we're sharing JW paraphernalia, here's something from this summer...


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## NoamL

YuHirà said:


> A revealing anecdote about the process, from Rian Johnson in the podcast "Soundtracking with Edith Bowman":
> 
> _When we were editing, we had a very talented music editor, Jo[seph] Bonn, who cut a temp score out of John’s previous scores and we basically temped using John Williams music. And then basically we gave that temp score to John and that was our spotting session. You know, a spotting session is usually when you sit down with the composer and talk through what you want. I didn’t do that with John, I just gave him our temp score and said this is generally the shape. And then John took that and sometimes he went with it, sometimes he deviated from it but he just did his thing: and the first time I heard any of the music John had written was when we were on the scoring stage and the hundred-piece orchestra was playing it._​



I thought this was his best score since the original trilogy*, and now this clarifies why. They left him entirely in charge of the work. This is exactly what I would have done if you let me direct a Star Wars. I certainly wouldn't presume to lecture a gentleman who has scored 50+ Globe/Oscar/Grammy nominated films about the character development in my movie 

*I still like much of the prequel music better as standalone music than the music in the Disney Trilogy, but it's rather cut to pieces in the final edits, especially in Clones and Sith. Often buried under Ben Burtt's editing and sfx.


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## NoamL

My favorite new theme from the movie is the one developed here:



(but also throughout the film)

there are a lot of fun subtle parallels between this and the hero themes from the original trilogy.


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## camerhil

I love the way the major and minor themes weave around each other in that track. There's something wonderfully light about Williams' compositions which I can't put my finger on: they're always full of air and sparkle, and this is a great example of that.

I really appreciate Williams taking the opportunity to flesh out his themes on the soundtrack albums, especially the Imperial March and Yoda's Theme on the Empire soundtrack. The March has such menace, and it's a gorgeous contrast to follow it up immediately with the gentle Yoda's Theme. It really shows off the emotional range that Star Wars is capable of at its best.


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## AlexRuger

camerhil said:


> There's something wonderfully light about Williams' compositions which I can't put my finger on: they're always full of air and sparkle, and this is a great example of that.



Great orchestration, well-designed support/counter-melodies, rhythmic development and structure, and a great conductor (without a click).


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## AlexRuger

dcoscina said:


> And therein lies the problem. Williams is old school and probably could have used a good old time to chat with Johnson about the storyline, character development, overall dramatic arc that would have helped him in creating a dynamic and developed score. Due to this frankly lazy move on the part of the director, it left the composer with an amalgam of his own previous work to draw from and that's why, for me, the score sounded like needle dropping or that a music editor basically stitched together the score. I was disappointed with both film and score and this is coming from a lifelong fan (I was 9 when I saw ANH in theatres in 1977). Criticize TFA all you want for its derivative narrative structure from Ep. 4 but I listened to Williams' score to this back to back with TLJ and Force Awakens had a much better constructed score with new themes, and variations that seemed woven into the fabric of the music rather than simply quoted verbatim.



Man, I really couldn't disagree more. TFA _literally _had a music editor stitching together quite a bit of the score. It felt lifeless and overly-examined, IMO. Whereas TLJ was clearly written all to picture -- it has that standard Williams elegance and nimbleness that TFA sorely lacked.

I applaud Rian Johnson for his hands-off approach, and am super impressed with the depth and raw emotion of the score. Hats off all around.


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## Tatu

I enjoyed the movie, although I have some mixed feelings about it over all.
'Chrome Dome' -scene - Just WOW.. A small and perhaps not the most important segment of the story, but damn that was some epic stuff Williams wrote for it (and nicely synced to picture). Threw Junkie XL's and Zimmers "1000 player tom ensembles" -action music to a trash compactor.


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## dcoscina

AlexRuger said:


> Man, I really couldn't disagree more. TFA _literally _had a music editor stitching together quite a bit of the score. It felt lifeless and overly-examined, IMO. Whereas TLJ was clearly written all to picture -- it has that standard Williams elegance and nimbleness that TFA sorely lacked.
> 
> I applaud Rian Johnson for his hands-off approach, and am super impressed with the depth and raw emotion of the score. Hats off all around.


Different strokes I guess. Found the Force Awakens to be more fluid with exception of a couple action cues. Last Jedi really has abrupt section changes and feels very reactive consequently.


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## J-M

Tatu said:


> I enjoyed the movie, although I have some mixed feelings about it over all.
> 'Chrome Dome' -scene - Just WOW.. A small and perhaps not the most important segment of the story, but damn that was some epic stuff Williams wrote for it (and nicely synced to picture). Threw Junkie XL's and Zimmers "1000 player tom ensembles" -action music to a trash compactor.



Pretty much how I felt. Interested to see where they go with episode 9.


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## jamwerks

dcoscina said:


> And therein lies the problem. Williams is old school and probably could have used a good old time to chat with Johnson about the storyline, character development, overall dramatic arc that would have helped him in creating a dynamic and developed score. Due to this frankly lazy move on the part of the director, it left the composer with an amalgam of his own previous work to draw from and that's why, for me, the score sounded like needle dropping or that a music editor basically stitched together the score. I was disappointed with both film and score and this is coming from a lifelong fan (I was 9 when I saw ANH in theatres in 1977). Criticize TFA all you want for its derivative narrative structure from Ep. 4 but I listened to Williams' score to this back to back with TLJ and Force Awakens had a much better constructed score with new themes, and variations that seemed woven into the fabric of the music rather than simply quoted verbatim.


I totally agree. It sounded like reheated leftovers of a great composer. But absolutely nothing new or exciting. Sounds like a soundtrack from the 70's. Absolutely no character development. Another case of how music editors ruin movies. Let the friggin' composer do his job!

And I'd like to hear the Atmos version. Just saw it in an old theater (3.1?) and the music was mixed down quite low. That's what they do when they don't think the music adds much to the conversation...


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## NoamL

Woah! I have no idea what you two're talking about. You're misunderstanding the article I think? It is saying that Rian's music editor assembled a TEMP, not that he cut JW's final score to fit a new edit.

I honestly doubt that any composer, JW less than anyone, would understand a temp score of their own music to be instructions to _merely_ arrange or edit their previous work.

I heard no needle drops in TLJ's score. There was one slightly jarring music edit in the credits going from orchestra to piano, but that was to accompany a card dedicating the movie to Carrie Fisher's memory. All of the other reuses of themes were written from scratch with new orchestrations, counterlines etc.

There was a HORRIBLE needle drop in The Force Awakens - I'm almost certain it's the original LSO recording from ANH - just dropped into the scene and then crossfaded into new music with no tonal sense:



I heard nothing like that in TLJ. There were quotes of "Tie Fighter Attack" and "Binary Sunset" but they were actually played by the orchestra with new orchestrations and counterlines, and woven into the larger score:





Dislike the movie if you want (it's a mess) but don't hate on this score, it's some of JW's best work! So strange that his own fans keep on with this "not as good as the old days" narrative when he's turned out scores like Tintin, War Horse, and The Last Jedi in this decade.

By the way speaking of *last jedis*, John Williams is _it_. Almost *nobody* is writing like this anymore, with this level of orchestrational and thematic and tonal complexity, and that includes Desplat and Giacchino.

Can we all, at least, on a composer's forum, be honest enough to admit that, I dunno what number, more than half of us.... aren't writing music like this because "it's so dated" or whatever, but because we can't? That it's practically black magic to most of us?

That if we were called to score a film like this, at least for _most of us_, the scenes of Kylo or Rey looking conflicted would just be synth pulses and buildups of some arbitrarily dissonant cluster, instead of those lithe, complex harmonies and mutations of themes that preserve such perfect emotional ambiguity and tension?

I look at this score and what I've scored recently and I'm so dissatisfied with myself LOL. This score lit a fire under my behind to get back to studying JW's scores in the new year.


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## AlexRuger

Well...not so much can't as not allowed. I'm not saying that I can write as well as JW (not by a million miles), but I'd certainly be flexing my chops more in the JW direction if filmmakers called for it. You know as well as I do that they simply don't want it, and even when they think they do, they always get cold feet and walk it back. This is true in my experience from the tiniest short to the biggest-budget blockbusters. 

But yeah, I'm really not understanding a lot of the negative comments. It's like we're listening to two different scores. Oh well, live and let live.


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## AlexRuger

I should however note that filmmakers not wanting the JW sound is not a bad thing. It just is. I lament it only for the fact that writing music that is detailed in that particular way (ie in terms of orchestration, harmony and counter-melodies, etc) is so enjoyable. I equally enjoy the ways in which music now often needs to be detailed (ie sound design), but I'd love for the scales to be tilted a bit more equally for the fun of it.


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## NoamL

Yes both ways of writing are enjoyable. But I often feel like I've gotten better at "production" music at the expense of really learning orchestration and 20th century tonality.... I need to get back to studying that. Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread.


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## calebfaith

I just saw it and loved every moment of it! I enjoyed it more than the force awakens


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## Sebastianmu

Generally love SW a lot, hated Ep 8 from the bottom of my heart! The story is sooooo messy! And I also agree, handing over a temp-track to John Williams, compiled from his former music, is a freaking _idiot's_ move! Snoke is a joke, his power-ranger personal guards are utterly ridiculous, the throne room looks silly. I don't particularly care for the troubles of any of the characters. And _why on earth _did we have to look at Kylo Ren shirtless?!? The multi-dimensional-hypercube-thingy is gimmicky, since it is not introduced in any meaningful way, and then also quite effortlessly left behind. Developments are not given enough time, because they have to get through too much stuff to bring certain lines to an end. I could go on about this in detail, but I probably shouldn't. SW 8 - not my cup of tea.


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## krops

Sebastianmu said:


> Generally love SW a lot, hated Ep 8 from the bottom of my heart! The story is sooooo messy!


I agree that the story is messy, but I still loved the film as a whole. The problem is, in my view, that there are way too many big and biggish characters at this point, and the result is that in their hurry to complete the arcs of the old characters, they neglect new ones. I don't want to spoil too much here, but out of the new characters, only Rey and Kylo had any development in Last Jedi. Don't get me started on that completely meaningless aside with the master code breaker. But I'm actually really warning up to Kylo at this point. He is delightfully capricious, troubled and ambiguous. He is everything young Anakin should have been in the prequels.


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## dcoscina

NoamL said:


> Woah! I have no idea what you two're talking about. You're misunderstanding the article I think? It is saying that Rian's music editor assembled a TEMP, not that he cut JW's final score to fit a new edit.
> 
> I honestly doubt that any composer, JW less than anyone, would understand a temp score of their own music to be instructions to _merely_ arrange or edit their previous work.
> 
> Dislike the movie if you want (it's a mess) but don't hate on this score, it's some of JW's best work! So strange that his own fans keep on with this "not as good as the old days" narrative when he's turned out scores like Tintin, War Horse, and The Last Jedi in this decade.
> 
> By the way speaking of *last jedis*, John Williams is _it_. Almost *nobody* is writing like this anymore, with this level of orchestrational and thematic and tonal complexity, and that includes Desplat and Giacchino.
> 
> Can we all, at least, on a composer's forum, be honest enough to admit that, I dunno what number, more than half of us.... aren't writing music like this because "it's so dated" or whatever, but because we can't? That it's practically black magic to most of us?
> 
> That if we were called to score a film like this, at least for _most of us_, the scenes of Kylo or Rey looking conflicted would just be synth pulses and buildups of some arbitrarily dissonant cluster, instead of those lithe, complex harmonies and mutations of themes that preserve such perfect emotional ambiguity and tension?
> 
> I look at this score and what I've scored recently and I'm so dissatisfied with myself LOL. This score lit a fire under my behind to get back to studying JW's scores in the new year.



1. I do understand the article. A proper spotting session is NOT a dictate from the director to the composer but a dialogue that helps the composer understand the sub-text, the characters' development, the narrative arc. Giving Williams an edit compiled by a music editor can only give the guy a sense of what Johnson was after. A discussion would have aided Williams as that process is from the era he came up in. 

2. I did not realize we have to like a score based on the composer or his abilities. I am a huge Williams fan and have been since 1977 when I first saw Star Wars as a kid. I've met him twice in my life and he's been gracious and terrific on both occasions. I love his musical approach and his scores have inspired me to write better music myself. But that doesn't mean I have to blindly love every note he's written. And because film music is tied to a film, and how human beings associative powers are very prevalent, it's hard to gush over music that feels very choppy where quotes of major themes and motives are placed in a knee jerk manner because the film runs the gamut of great to awful moments with a very inconsistent pace. 

3. As for how we would score a Star Wars film, speak for yourself. some of us don't write in the modern fashion at all. I dislike current stylistic tendencies because I came up composing in the '80s when there were no sample libraries, no Finale or Sibelius, and we had to write everything out by hand (more challenging for us lefties when inking our scores too!). But regardless of this, the logic behind your post is that if we cannot write at that level, we shouldn't be allow to decide whether we like the work or not? That's a little odd don't you think? This is a forum where people can articulate their opinions, hopefully respectfully. No one said "Last Jedi sucks" because that would be a shortcut to thinking. All criticisms of the score clearly outline what about it did not resonate with the listener. But no one is being disrespectful.


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## Living Fossil

ok, i don't want to upset anybody with my very personal view, but this movie was amongst the worst movies i ever saw. I would even hesitate to call it a "movie", but rather speak of an "opportunity to suck out money from the consumers".
The story is a mess. i guess a usual ego-shooter game has more substance (i don't play video games, so it's a guess).
The 3D technique is half baken. There were almost no scenes, where the space that you see appears to be realistic.
It was like sitting in a theater play. Only: in a theater play the non-realism creates the illusion of a hyper-reality.
Here, a ridiculous 3D setup creates headache.
The characters are shallow. Lea and Luke have scripts as i would imagine the 15th part of the movie Hang Over, that takes place in 2045, when the guys are old and enjoy another night on roofies.
And then those pets that Disney put on the island. They know: among 7,6 billion people on this earth there are lots of children, and if they force their parents to buy replica of them, it's gonna be a huge success.

But since this thread is about the soundtrack, some words to the soundtrack:
I didn't like it. I explicitely disliked it.
My musical upbringing was based to a big part on the orchestral music of the last 200 years. No matter, if it's Beethoven or Bruckner or Bartok or Ravel: in the masterpieces of the orchestral tradition there uses to be a perfect balance between form and function, between substance and the vocabulary to transport this substance.
If a modulation takes place, it has a very substantial meaning. If Wagner is meandering through pantonal landscapes in Tristan, it has meaning. If Strawinsky or Ravel use tons of supporting voices, it's extremely related to what they intended to express in that specifiic situation.
And i'm really sorry to say this, but to me, in this score there was a huge gap between an inflational use of notes, instrumental textures, modulations, etc. etc. and the emotional impact of them.
It was a similar experience like i had when i visited some cathedrals in neo-gothic style: everything was bigger than in the original, but it had lost its meaning.
So, the most interesting thing for me in this movie was observing, how much i disliked it.

The older i get, the more i tend to love simplicity that is not banality, but just perfectly captures the quintessence of what has to be said. Hindemith once said that he "had to get rather old to get rid of the superfluous notes in his music". In this movie, i sometimes really wished 2 very loud "epic taiko hits"™ instead of 300 modulating brass notes...

p.s. of course, this isn't meant to be disrespectful towards JW's work in this movie etc.


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## ctsai89

The themes (Rey and kylo) that John Williams made in the new SW movies no longer has that iconic, magical and emotional touch he used to have in the older SW movies anymore...

And the movie also really sucked. Nothing but toddler's play. 

Don't be offended, it's my opinion.


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## jonathanparham

Just saw it last night and had been listening to the soundtrack for a few days now. I even listened to the new score on the way to the theater (Imax). My friend commented as we exited our car with the music, 'Wow. It's like I'm in the film already.' My favorite moment was my wife being jolted by the 'opening' cue with the now infamous title card scroll. She was really surprisingly overwhelmed! The music really stood out for me. All the brassy stabs for the fight scenes and the cocktail music for the gambling club was cool.


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## sluggo

Was this already pointed out? JW 'scored' the film before it was shot. I suppose they used this music and then he came back to score it again? I don't think ay composer would enjoy that process. Especially a composer with numerous Oscars for having scored movies in the proper process.


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## Alex Fraser

NoamL said:


> By the way speaking of *last jedis*, John Williams is _it_. Almost *nobody* is writing like this anymore, with this level of orchestrational and thematic and tonal complexity, and that includes Desplat and Giacchino.
> 
> Can we all, at least, on a composer's forum, be honest enough to admit that, I dunno what number, more than half of us.... aren't writing music like this because "it's so dated" or whatever, but because we can't? That it's practically black magic to most of us?



This. That said, the level of skill sometimes on display around here is astronomical.

I’ve often thought that JW’s composing setup (piano, paper and no DAW) is part of the secret to his great work. Allowing his brain to go full-on creative free flow without worrying about clicks, VI’s etc.

Does anyone know how he works out the sync to picture? Stopwatch? Black magic?


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## Kent

I’m not sure I saw the same movie as many of you. I thought it was the best SW film since ESB and the best score since the OT. I know everybody is entitled to different opinions but it really astounds me how divisive this one movie has proven to be! Crazy


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## RRBE Sound

I did like TLJ, very much! Also the music. However, I've seen it several times now and I do get a ''Harry Potter'' music kind of feeling. I think John Williams did a great job, but maybe too many similarities in the style.. ? 

This being said, then the thing I did not like in this movie is the two characters, Rose and Holdo.
Holdo is none necessary and Rose should be the one to stop the huge cannon and die. - This is only my opinion.


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## calebfaith

kmaster said:


> I’m not sure I saw the same movie as many of you. I thought it was the best SW film since ESB and the best score since the OT. I know everybody is entitled to different opinions but it really astounds me how divisive this one movie has proven to be! Crazy



I feel the same!


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## dcoscina

calebfaith said:


> I feel the same!


Funny I feel the same thing but with the opposite result. When people laud the film I wonder if I saw a rough cut or work in progress? It's such a schizoid experience for me. Some of its demystification of the SW lord was refreshing but other parts of the film I found disrepectful to what Lucas had originally envisioned. But hey, that's what makes this world interesting. If we all had the same POv it would be boring.


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## Sebastianmu

Alex Fraser said:


> Does anyone know how he works out the sync to picture? Stopwatch? Black magic?


Watch here:


and


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## A3D2

kmaster said:


> I’m not sure I saw the same movie as many of you. I thought it was the best SW film since ESB and the best score since the OT. I know everybody is entitled to different opinions but it really astounds me how divisive this one movie has proven to be! Crazy


idem


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## Jeremy Spencer

Saw it last night....absolutely loved it. It was a great escape from reality....just watch it and forget about everything else. I found it a LOT like the original episode IV plot in many ways, but really well done. The music? Well, JW is the master. Also really enjoyed the sharp witted, slapstick humor...such as Luke nonchalantly wiping the dust from his shoulder after being pummelled by a epic onslaught of laser cannons. Classic!


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## kitekrazy

Alex Fraser said:


> This. That said, the level of skill sometimes on display around here is astronomical.
> 
> *I’ve often thought that JW’s composing setup (piano, paper and no DAW) is part of the secret to his great work. Allowing his brain to go full-on creative free flow without worrying about clicks, VI’s etc.*
> 
> Does anyone know how he works out the sync to picture? Stopwatch? Black magic?



We do have members here who still like to do it old school.


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## kitekrazy

Wolfie2112 said:


> Saw it last night....absolutely loved it. It was a great escape from reality....just watch it and forget about everything else. I found it a LOT like the original episode IV plot in many ways, but really well done. The music? Well, JW is the master. Also really enjoyed the sharp witted, slapstick humor...such as Luke nonchalantly wiping the dust from his shoulder after being pummelled by a epic onslaught of laser cannons. Classic!



When he is standing before the walkers fire would be a great screenshot.


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## kitekrazy

A Star Wars movie is the only thing that will bring me to a theater.


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## Alex Fraser

kitekrazy said:


> We do have members here who still like to do it old school.


Then I salute them!


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## Andrajas

I saw it today. John Williams music was absolutely amazing. Felt fresh to me and I particularly liked how he scored under dialog.

The film itself was good, but I just have this feeling that they play to "safe" with the story line and its just building on the same things as previous movies. Like the fights in space, its always : we need to infiltrate enemy ship and destroy something within or turn something off/on to have a chance to win. And some dialog is very predictable in the way they present it.

There were however many cool things in it and some scenes were absolutely killer. But I sort of have mixed feelings with it.

But damn, John Williams is good...


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## dcoscina

Andrajas said:


> I saw it today. John Williams music was absolutely amazing. Felt fresh to me and I particularly liked how he scored under dialog.
> 
> The film itself was good, but I just have this feeling that they play to "safe" with the story line and its just building on the same things as previous movies. Like the fights in space, its always : we need to infiltrate enemy ship and destroy something within or turn something off/on to have a chance to win. And some dialog is very predictable in the way they present it.
> 
> There were however many cool things in it and some scenes were absolutely killer. But I sort of have mixed feelings with it.
> 
> But damn, John Williams is good...


If you liked the score as presented on the official release I think you will love the FYC version that Disney put up a couple days ago. 



kitekrazy said:


> We do have members here who still like to do it old school.


I doubt it. By old school I'm assuming you mean a Click Book. I used that in the early 90s. From the sketches I've seen of Williams' short scores, it looks like times are included in the pages so he's clearly working the old school way.


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## NoamL

> Does anyone know how he works out the sync to picture? Stopwatch? Black magic?



in JW's sketches he writes in the timecode and descriptions of hit points. These come off the timing sheet created by the music editor (as seen in the above documentary).

As for actually calculating the bars between hitpoints, from what I understand, there used to be big lookup-tables published for composers that contained pre-calculated correspondences between BPM and 24fps film lengths. Rather similar to the trigonometry tables that were published before calculators. With these tables you could figure out that if you need to score 8 bars of 4/4 in exactly 15 seconds and 2 frames, that's 127.3 bpm, etc. That's easy to do in DAWs now.

For conducting JW uses a big sweep-hand clock inside the studio. Instead of a click track (which he almost NEVER uses, as discussed plenty on this forum) he uses a really old piece of tech called *Auricle*. It places streamers and punches into the film electronically. Like the yellow and red lights on a traffic stop, the streamers warn that a hitpoint is coming and the punches mark it exactly. and these are the only guides he needs to keep the orchestra together. As I understand it the Auricle replaced the even _more_ ancient process of creating streamers, by physically cutting them into a 3 or 4 ft length of film with a razor blade, which was used by composers in 50s and 60s.


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## Kony

Alex Fraser said:


> Seeing the film to tomorrow and chomping at the bit to hear the soundtrack.


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## Jeremy Spencer

NoamL said:


> It places streamers and punches into the film electronically. Like the yellow and red lights on a traffic stop, the streamers warn that a hitpoint is coming and the punches mark it exactly.



DP has a feature that does this...I wish Logic and Cubase would implement this as well.


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## dcoscina

Wolfie2112 said:


> DP has a feature that does this...I wish Logic and Cubase would implement this as well.


I’m an ardent Cubase 9 user except when doing anything for media. Then it’s all DP every time time.


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## Grim_Universe

To be honest, I like JW much more in slow, dramatic and deep music. Speaking of SW, it feels like he became a hostage of his own style. When I listen to the new score, I can't stop imagining JW at his work: "Ok, I do not want to compose anything, but what would I have written if I wanted to?".. Something like that. Maybe it is just me, but it feels like he is tired of this franchise. Original OST is great, prequels OST is different but I love it even more (f*cking newfag), and I actually liked TFA OST, it was different too but really fresh is some ways. But The Last Jedi OST is a strange thing. I don't like it at all.


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## FriFlo

dcoscina said:


> I’m an ardent Cubase 9 user except when doing anything for media. Then it’s all DP every time time.


Does that mean, you do all the midi work on another sequencer program, as soon as you write to picture? It would drive me mad to have to switch between two different programs all the time ... I would really appreciate to have some of those features (especially punchers and streamers) available in Cubase, but there is some functionality in almost any sequencer I would like under one roof. E.g.: I'd love to have Max for Live, but I'd like to have it in Cubase, because I couldn't stand using Live apart from that great tool ... switching back and forth between different programs would make work even more miserable to me.


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## dcoscina

FriFlo said:


> Does that mean, you do all the midi work on another sequencer program, as soon as you write to picture? It would drive me mad to have to switch between two different programs all the time ... I would really appreciate to have some of those features (especially punchers and streamers) available in Cubase, but there is some functionality in almost any sequencer I would like under one roof. E.g.: I'd love to have Max for Live, but I'd like to have it in Cubase, because I couldn't stand using Live apart from that great tool ... switching back and forth between different programs would make work even more miserable to me.



I don't do a lot of media work any longer and find Cubase much more efficient with VSTs so I don't have to use VEPRO whereas DP demands it. Plus its GUI is terrible for visually challenged folks like me whereas Cubase is delightful. 

But I've gone through various DAWs over the years. I worked with Pro Tools 7 thru 9 for a while even for MIDI work. Then I began getting a lot more scoring work and after working with Bill Stromberg on a documentary, I became quite fond of working with DP and will still use it because it just seems the best suited to film/tv work.


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## Alex Fraser

Spent way too much time reading this..


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## robgb

A3D2 said:


> Did anyone here see The Last Jedi


Truly terrible movie. And I didn't dislike it because it screwed with sacred Star Wars mythology (except the fact that Luke Skywalker would never go into exile because of some punk kid--he defeated and turned Vader for godsakes). I disliked it because it was shoddy, lazy storytelling full of plot holes so large the Death Star could fit through. I won't go into detail. If you loved it and can forgive the bad writing, more power to you. I couldn't wait for it to be over.


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## dcoscina

robgb said:


> Truly terrible movie. And I didn't dislike it because it screwed with sacred Star Wars mythology (except the fact that Luke Skywalker would never go into exile because of some punk kid--he defeated and turned Vader for godsakes). I disliked it because it was shoddy, lazy storytelling full of plot holes so large the Death Star could fit through. I won't go into detail. If you loved it and can forgive the bad writing, more power to you. I couldn't wait for it to be over.


Couldn't have said it better.


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## Zhao Shen

robgb said:


> Truly terrible movie. And I didn't dislike it because it screwed with sacred Star Wars mythology (except the fact that Luke Skywalker would never go into exile because of some punk kid--he defeated and turned Vader for godsakes). I disliked it because it was shoddy, lazy storytelling full of plot holes so large the Death Star could fit through. I won't go into detail. If you loved it and can forgive the bad writing, more power to you. I couldn't wait for it to be over.



Agreed. A lot of the criticism directed against Episode 8 is about the Marvel humor, the cheesy moments, the unsatisfying resolutions, and more, but while those criticisms are valid, I wouldn't have been so turned off if the plot had been serviceable.

I think it's funny that The Last Jedi and Rogue One have completely opposite issues. RO had an interesting and relatively cohesive plot that was so thoughtful that it retroactively improved the original trilogy, but unfortunately the main cast of characters was pretty dull.

On the other hand, TLJ was set up with really interesting characters that audiences had grown an attachment to from TFA, but the plot was a heaping mess.


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## FriFlo

I hated the film - even while watching it at some times yesterday! With Starwars films, I keep wondering whether this is primarily due to the fact that I am not that innocent teenager anymore. Maybe that's has a lot to do with it, since the younger generation seems to enjoy the new films (including prequels) equally. Yet, there are some objective points to the art of film and story telling that can be found. Recently, I found this interesting analysis of Empire Strikes Back on YT. While some findings may be a little over the top and Empire Strikes Back is not in fact a Kubrick film, I found it quite persuasive in showing reasons, why parts of the original saga is so much deeper and more effective in pulling the audience into this other world.


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## Alex Fraser

I absolutely adored the film - and I'm a longtime SW fan of nearly 40 years.
FWIW, it's better on the second viewing. The first time I watched it, there was a clash between my expectations of what should happen and what actually happened. Unburdened by this on the second viewing, I enjoyed it a lot more.

Plot holes have always been part of Star Wars. That's what you get when you try to write a story that spans the galaxy, multiple light years, involves planet sized super weapons and space wizards.

My 2c.


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## robgb

Alex Fraser said:


> Plot holes have always been part of Star Wars.


Yes. Very true. But the plot holes in Last Jedi were too big to ignore. They were complete lapses in storytelling logic that caused things to happen that never would have happened if proper logic had been followed. In other words they were excuses to move the plot along, when the plot should have arisen out of character, not convenience.


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## Levitanus

I am pretty calm about the film as it is. It's not too bad)
But i feel some pubertal criticism at absolutely unexpected points... Why Yoda so terrible? I came back and looked at all the implementations of him, and they are breathing of life. Even the very old dall from ESB.
I'm really upset of Chue... Made forbidden robotic dall from very close friend... Yep, Luke's motivation and tidings also discussable, but they are not so terrible, as first two points.
And yep.. too much of water is here. We were at the night reel, but i bored not because of it, i think...

But also there're good points, i think. Unexpected for myself i loved the casino scene all through. May be it was unnecessary, but very powerful, as far as soundtrack


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## Pier

It was a 4/10 for me. I liked some aspects (acting, production, music) and I thought the direction was really good, but the script ruined the movie for me. Too many plot holes, forced jokes, and moments that didn't make much sense.

Apparently Solo is being released in May. John Williams will write the theme and John Powell the score. We'll see how that goes.


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## robgb

Pier Bover said:


> Apparently Solo is being released in May. John Williams will write the theme and John Powell the score. We'll see how that goes.


Word on the street is that it's a mess and that the lead can't act... so there's that.


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## Dr Sabs

We got into a bit of a rabbit hole analysis on the Last Jedi on my youtube podcast if anyone is interested in checking it out: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWzOQTySVQ3NDcWaM3jurHQ?view_as=subscriber


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## robertGL

I haven't even watched the movie and I dislike it.
The franchise needs an overhaul. Kathleen Kennedy seems to have let bad ideas creep into the franchise at Disney.


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## thevisi0nary

I did not like the movie, the soundtrack however was fantastic!


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## Zhao Shen

robertGL said:


> I haven't even watched the movie and I dislike it.
> The franchise needs an overhaul. Kathleen Kennedy seems to have let bad ideas creep into the franchise at Disney.



Sorry, what? I'm pretty negative about the film, but judging it without seeing it is frankly preposterous.


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## Consona

thevisi0nary said:


> I did not like the movie, the soundtrack however was fantastic!


I'm just listening to it, it's so fricking jaw-droppingly amazing, haven't heard anything that good in a long time. More so when you consider it was composed to such a messy narrative.


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