# How many of you render audio in real time?



## musicalweather (Jun 12, 2018)

Just wondering how many of you bounce your tracks in real time. I myself don't, and try to avoid it at all costs. But I'm curious to hear about those who do, and why they do it.


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## germancomponist (Jun 12, 2018)

I did it many years ago, because a plugin asked for this. I do not remember what it was .... .


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## tmhuud (Jun 12, 2018)

We have to. Outboard gear, bricasti, etc.


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## germancomponist (Jun 12, 2018)

Ah yes, when mastering it is a must ... .


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## tmhuud (Jun 12, 2018)

@germancomponist , I DO seem to remember a handful of plugs that neeeded real-time....I think we had to do it in the birthing stages of EW PLAY for some reason. If we didn’t, we had drop outs.

Anywho. Its actually a good reason to do it just to HEAR your mix again. Sometimes you'll catch something before it heads out of your studio and into someone elses. Its tedious but I think its a necessary evil.


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## pmcrockett (Jun 12, 2018)

I've only ever done realtime bounces when plugins went glitchy for offline bounces. I used to bounce in realtime with EW Hollywood stuff before I moved it to SSD. I also at one point was bridging a 32-bit version of, I think it was Amplitube, that behaved wrong in offline bounces.


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## charlieclouser (Jun 12, 2018)

I still always bounce / render / print in real time, mainly because it's the last time I'll get to hear the thing for QC purposes before it goes out the door. I seem to always catch stuff that makes me cancel the operation and go in and make just "one last" tweak or fix to something that I didn't hear while I was working on the cue. Plus, this is one of the few times when one is forced to just listen to the damn thing all the way through without jumping back and forth between markers, soloing stuff, etc.


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## JohnG (Jun 12, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> mainly because it's the last time I'll get to hear the thing for QC purposes before it goes out the door.



same here


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## StephenForsyth (Jun 12, 2018)

I mean you're going to listen to the rendered file again once it's exported to make sure it works right anyway? seems like you're wasting time by just not rendering it in real time and listening there¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## enyawg (Jun 12, 2018)

Pro Tools HD user here so yeah. However when in Reaper I can render in non-real time.


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## chrisr (Jun 13, 2018)

I print to Reaper from Cubase in real time.


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## charlieclouser (Jun 13, 2018)

I should also mention that on one tv series I was delivering as four stereo stems plus a composite mix - the composite mix was mostly for the picture editors and reference purposes on the stage; the mixers used my stems. Since I wanted to make sure that each stem could be used by itself if needed, or in any combination with other stems, I wanted each stem to sound like a "complete" (if minimal) piece of music. This meant that I was constantly deciding on the fly what elements went into which stem, ignoring the usual rules of piano / strings hi / strings low / synths etc. This meant that I would have spent hours re-assigning each element to whatever stem I thought it "belonged" to for that cue - so in the end it was just quicker to color-code the regions in Logic, then "Select Equal Colored Objects", turn on Object Solo, and just bounce the stereo output. 

Even though this increased my print time 5x over bouncing it all in one pass to the PT rig, I did it this way and it was pretty cool because I could pick elements and assign them to stems on a region-by-region basis - even putting two regions from the same source track onto two different stems, which would have been a huge hassle if I was doing it my normal way. 

The end result was no different sonically, but that process gave me the control I needed, with the added bonus of listening to each stem as it bounced (which never happens!). The resulting stems still added up to equal my composite mix, but the way in which elements were distributed across the stems was pretty different to what I would have gotten normally - and it meant that they could play any weird combination of my stems on the stage, from just one stem to all four, and get something that made musical sense with no awkward moments or weirdly missing elements. Came out pretty cool, and made tracking later episodes and building new cues from recycled stems a breeze.


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## Henu (Jun 13, 2018)

Only when I mix through outboard. Offline bouncing is just so much more convenient, and I always check out the file afterwards anyway.


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## MatFluor (Jun 13, 2018)

I do in real time.

It happened to me too often where some error creeped in (be it a pop or something else) and it was frustrating to proof listen afterwards. With realtime I have more control, I can stop it when there is an error etc.

Sure takes more time, but when you prooflisten anyway afterwards - I do it right in the DAW (especially since I use Sonarworks reference in the DAW for room correction)


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## jononotbono (Jun 13, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I still always bounce / render / print in real time, mainly because it's the last time I'll get to hear the thing for QC purposes before it goes out the door. I seem to always catch stuff that makes me cancel the operation and go in and make just "one last" tweak or fix to something that I didn't hear while I was working on the cue. Plus, this is one of the few times when one is forced to just listen to the damn thing all the way through without jumping back and forth between markers, soloing stuff, etc.



This. 

Also, on the rare occasion there is still a VI triggering articulations (and usually by the final mix stage everything has been turned into audio but every once in a while there is something I have left as midi) in a track, I need to be sure the correct art is being triggered. Weirder things happen in a DAW.


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## Anders Wall (Jun 13, 2018)

tmhuud said:


> We have to. Outboard gear, bricasti, etc.


+1 Outboard...
/Anders


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## JaikumarS (Jun 13, 2018)

Yes. All the time. I'd like to hear it once in Protools before sending to the production.


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## garyhiebner (Jun 13, 2018)

enyawg said:


> Pro Tools HD user here so yeah. However when in Reaper I can render in non-real time.



Does ProTools HD still not have offline bouncing?


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## babylonwaves (Jun 13, 2018)

are you guys aware that most DAWs skip samples when calculating effects and instruments to allow more things to get processed in realtime? in other words, in many situations, online bouncing compromises the sound quality of your instruments. only offline bouncing ensures that everything is calculated as it should.


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## lumcas (Jun 13, 2018)

Pro Tools has this feature implemented for a couple of years already. Couldn't live without it.


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## macmac (Jun 13, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I seem to always catch stuff that makes me cancel the operation and go in and make just "one last" tweak or fix to something that I didn't hear while I was working on the cue.



^^ This. So true, for some reason.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jun 13, 2018)

I like to bounce in realtime for the same reason @charlieclouser explained. But on big projects most of the time it is offline, cause my CPU is in too much pain and has trouble to play everything without cracks and pops


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## chrisr (Jun 13, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> are you guys aware that most DAWs skip samples when calculating effects and instruments to allow more things to get processed in realtime?



I've always thought some quality compromise/trade-off might be happening as off-line renders can take longer than real-time, but I'm happy to go with what I hear when I'm writing.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 13, 2018)

chrisr said:


> but I'm happy to go with what I hear when I'm writing.


that's the idea


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## pz_music (Jun 13, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> are you guys aware that most DAWs skip samples when calculating effects and instruments to allow more things to get processed in realtime? in other words, in many situations, online bouncing compromises the sound quality of your instruments. only offline bouncing ensures that everything is calculated as it should.


Oh really? That's interesting. Do you think there's a noticeable difference? Say, you would bounce the same session online and offline?


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## wst3 (Jun 13, 2018)

I always bounce in real time - call it paranoia, call it I learned to monitor the "product" from an early age, and it is just a habit.

I have heard that real-time vs off-line can be different, but I've yet to demonstrate it to myself. Sonar offers realtime, offline, and even "fast bounce". I've taken the same project (obviously without external effects) and used all three methods. While the checksum differs, a "null test" has yet to show any significant differences. And by significant, I mean the differences are typically 100 dB down (or more). That is, for all intents and purposes, inaudible.

I have never had two mixes cancel completely, but in fact I'd expect some differences, a synth starts a waveform slightly differently, which affects how any processors process that signal, and so on.

If the differences were significant (i.e. audible) then I'd have to listen to both to decide which one I liked better<G>!


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## wst3 (Jun 13, 2018)

chrisr said:


> I've always thought some quality compromise/trade-off might be happening as off-line renders can take longer than real-time, but I'm happy to go with what I hear when I'm writing.


That's really interesting. While I don't watch the clock, I've always thought offline bounces happened in less time. Now I guess I need to check!


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## reddognoyz (Jun 13, 2018)

I record my mixes in real time to do a last listen, then master and bounce out the file. If I have time I'll usually listen to the final audio file output to double for errors, and to gloat and bask in the glory of my composing brilliance.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 13, 2018)

pz_music said:


> Oh really? That's interesting. Do you think there's a noticeable difference? Say, you would bounce the same session online and offline?


it is not so much that you save or loose a lot of time. it is about when the calculating power peaks. the peaks are usually short (that's why you don't hear a drastic difference). i guess if you'd look at the transients of the waveforms you would see a difference though. 
bouncing offline can take longer if you use instruments or effects which allow you to select a better quality when rendering offline. synths do that, some reverbs and other effects as well.


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## enyawg (Jun 14, 2018)

garyhiebner said:


> Does ProTools HD still not have offline bouncing?


The new version does but I have an old v7 TDM rig due to full length PCIe cards and hardware. Sounds great however and use as audio playback, stemming and mastering. All my midi rendering is done in Reaper unless I need to master, then I use PRO Tools HD2 and render in real time.


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## WindcryMusic (Jun 14, 2018)

I always bounce offline and then listen back to check the results, for the reason babylonwaves stated, and particularly because a dozen years ago I worked on developing both a VST host and plugins for an audio company and came to understand firsthand how much easier it is for a plugin to handle an offline render.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 14, 2018)

charlieclouser said:


> I still always bounce / render / print in real time, mainly because it's the last time I'll get to hear the thing for QC purposes before it goes out the door. I seem to always catch stuff that makes me cancel the operation and go in and make just "one last" tweak or fix to something that I didn't hear while I was working on the cue. Plus, this is one of the few times when one is forced to just listen to the damn thing all the way through without jumping back and forth between markers, soloing stuff, etc.


Except that the printed file can always have issues. To QC, you should always listen to all final files before they go out. I always do offline because I don't want to have to sit there listening and then sit there listening yet again. When I'm creating masters in different formats, I'll normally just listen to the most processed formats because any issues in the other files will carry through to those. 

The other thing to keep in mind is that if you do it offline you don't have to worry about any clicks or pops that you might get from any instruments. People who have systems that sometimes have clicks and pops (like with a busy cue) will have to sit there all day trying to get it to print cleanly.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Jun 14, 2018)

wst3 said:


> I always bounce in real time - call it paranoia, call it I learned to monitor the "product" from an early age, and it is just a habit.
> 
> I have heard that real-time vs off-line can be different, but I've yet to demonstrate it to myself. Sonar offers realtime, offline, and even "fast bounce". I've taken the same project (obviously without external effects) and used all three methods. While the checksum differs, a "null test" has yet to show any significant differences. And by significant, I mean the differences are typically 100 dB down (or more). That is, for all intents and purposes, inaudible.
> 
> ...


I've heard that Pro Tools used to be horrible for printing anything so I know several people who still use a digital out to a hard disk recorded just to print their mixes. I think nowadays it's not an issue.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 14, 2018)

Always in real-time. If I don't, there occasionally artifacts (pops, clicks) that are a direct result off offline rendering.


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## dariusofwest (Jun 14, 2018)

Almost always in realtime, expect for game music.


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## robgb (Jun 14, 2018)

I render mine in fake time. My whole life is rendered in fake time.


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## ken c (Jun 14, 2018)

I also do offline because of speed and that most of the time it works just fine, but I've never thought of using the real-time as a last listen. I think I may try this in the future.


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## whinecellar (Jun 14, 2018)

Interesting how people have experienced issues with both realtime and offline bounces. One school of thought is to listen during a real time bounce – but it doesn’t seem likely you are hearing the actual resulting file. Either way, I’m in the camp of those who listen to every resulting mix for QC issues. I have also experienced many plug-ins that have errors in offline bounces – some Play libraries still have problems with this for me, as do some Kontakt-based. So for anything that really counts, I tend to do realtime bounces...


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## pmcrockett (Jun 14, 2018)

I prefer to listen to the final render in a run-of-the-mill media player rather than the DAW because I find that the change of scenery helps give me a bit of mental distance from the mixing process which changes the way I listen. I don't know if it _actually_ improves my error-checking abilities, but it sure feels like it does.


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## ThomasL (Jun 16, 2018)

Totally depends. If I'm using outboard and hardware synths it's realtime, if not it's offline. Never noticed a difference really. Final files need to be listened to anyway.


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## Anders Wall (Jun 16, 2018)

babylonwaves said:


> ...only offline bouncing ensures that everything is calculated as it should.


Isn’t ”what you hear is what you get” the most important thing?
As ProTools user I always commit my tracks before the final mixdown.
And I always record the mixbus live to new tracks, that way I can do final adjustments whilst listening to the material.
Best,
/Anders


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## Tod (Jun 17, 2018)

I've run into occasional problems rendering midi using "offline render", so for insurance, I use "real time" for rendering projects with midi in them. If the project or tracks I want to render are all audio, I've never had a problem using "offline" for that.


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## Divico (Jun 18, 2018)

Ive had problems with Spaces in the past giving me glitchy sounds in offline rendering. 
Imo It is also worth noting that offline rendering can mean different things. In Reaper f.e. it may be : 
realtime offline rendering (like online but without playing sound). 
Full speed offline which in less complex projects is way faster.


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## Akarin (Jun 18, 2018)

I have to, or most of the EWQL Hollywood orchestra will pop and click. When using Kontakt libraries only, I don't.


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## musicalweather (Jun 24, 2018)

I must say, it's been interesting to read all these responses. Thanks for all of those! Looks like a good percentage of you render in real time! Makes me think that I shouldn't be so grumpy about having to do that. (I _have_ to do it with PLAY -- both 5 and 6. I posted about this problem here.)

I'm surprised to hear that off-line rendering can be as slow or slower than real-time rendering. In my experience, off-line has _always_ been faster than real-time, though sometimes it isn't as fast as I've expected it to be. 

Anyway, I prefer my method of doing off-line bouncing, then listening to the tracks before they go out. So I'm going to see if I can downgrade to PLAY 4. I'll add that EastWest support did their best to help me resolve this problem in PLAY 5/6, but ultimately couldn't solve it. Their advice was to do a real-time render.


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