# Panagement



## bill5 (Nov 8, 2021)

It seems this is well thought of here by at least some and it's well discounted now...can someone explain in English the fuss? What's so great about it? Lord knows I have plenty of effects plugins, but not closed-minded to something different, which this touts itself to be.


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## dunamisstudio (Nov 8, 2021)

check out the product trailer  
Introducing Panagement 2, binaural VST plugin


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## NekujaK (Nov 8, 2021)

And there's also this...


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## Nico5 (Nov 8, 2021)

bill5 said:


> it's well discounted now


I couldn't find a discount - quite the opposite actually - it seems the price for the paid version has gone up? Now USD 52, while KVR Audio still implies USD 39.


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## bill5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> I couldn't find a discount -











Panagement 2 (VST/AU) by Auburn Sounds - Audio Plugin Deals


Panagement gives you raw power over your stereo tracks.Now only $11.99 instead of $52 for a limited time only, don't miss out!




audioplugin.deals


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## Nico5 (Nov 8, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Panagement 2 (VST/AU) by Auburn Sounds - Audio Plugin Deals
> 
> 
> Panagement gives you raw power over your stereo tracks.Now only $11.99 instead of $52 for a limited time only, don't miss out!
> ...


thanks for that link - great find!


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## bill5 (Nov 8, 2021)

dunamisstudio said:


> check out the product trailer
> Introducing Panagement 2, binaural VST plugin


Thanks but I said in English  What a load of craptacular fluff lol




NekujaK said:


> And there's also this...



And again - thanks but I gave up at about the 2 min mark.

I guess I should have realized this with something advertised as a "binaural plugin"


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## NekujaK (Nov 8, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Thanks but I said in English  What a load of craptacular fluff lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, just after the 2 minute mark, he starts using the plugin and putting it through it's paces. I don't think he's using it in the way that folks on this forum have described, but still, this video gives a quick tour of what it actually does. I recommend watching after 2 mins


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## Nico5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Buzzword marketing isn't exactly a rare experience here at vi-control 



> The PGMT-400 Chip functions are as follows-
> – LED 1 => ring mod between dry and late reflections of the reverb
> – LED 2 => Pan > Delay is much higher, making inter-aural delay more like Haas
> – LED 3 => Invert left and right output channels
> ...


Source: https://audioplugin.deals/blog/lets-talk-panagement-2/

And a demonstration video with a little less breathless marketing:


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## dunamisstudio (Nov 8, 2021)

Yeah this one I'll skip. That is a cheap price but I'll skip it and buy lunch one day.


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## Nico5 (Nov 8, 2021)

dunamisstudio said:


> Yeah this one I'll skip. That is a cheap price but I'll skip it and buy lunch one day.


Fair comparison?


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 8, 2021)

The snarky comments are disappointing, since this plugin is awesome. It does great positioning, the free version is quite full featured, and for the people that aren't doing a binaural mix at the moment, the binaural bits can be turned down.


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## Crowe (Nov 8, 2021)

It positions things in space and it's absolutely brilliant at it.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 8, 2021)

I have a number of spacial placement and movement plugins, DearVR giving the best sounding results of them so far, but the LFO plus the ease of use of this plugin makes it very attractive indeed. If the sound quality is as sharp as it needs to be, this thing is very cheap at full price. I’m looking forward to trying it out.


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## Crowe (Nov 8, 2021)

I have no idea if Mr Snake Oil has anything useful to say these days. I despise everything about his youtube style and have long since blocked his videos.

I cannot advise you to base your impressions on one of his videos.


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## NekujaK (Nov 8, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I've really gone off his review style. It's usually five mins of boring back story, then five mins of him fumbling around the plugin like he's never used it before, and then a really opinionated subjective viewpoint. I much prefer to watch someone who has taken the time to get really familiar with something and find it's strengths and weaknesses and present everything factually with ready prepared examples. And the video titles are just pure clickbait.


I agree that his lack of familiarity with the plugins he reviews and general offhand brevity of his approach can be off-putting and counter-informative, however, he is actually very knowledgable about audio, and I find that when he does like a plugin, his opinion is sound and it's for the right reasons.

His other non-Snake Oil videos can be very informative. But I can see how he's not everyone's cup of tea. It took me several rounds of dismissing him, then later revisiting him, until I began to appreciate what he has to offer.


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## I like music (Nov 9, 2021)

They very generously offer a pretty broad-featured free version. Download it and try, no?


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## Nico5 (Nov 9, 2021)

I haven't totally given up on SnakeOil guy, but watch him less, since the signal to noise ratio (information vs. fluff) seems to have gotten worse.

But I've also seen this with quite a few other channels, whom I used to enjoy watching much more in the past than recently.

However, much blame must go to YouTube algorithms rewarding click bait titles and longer videos rather than tightly edited information rich videos.

But maybe the real underlying reason is, that there's an ever increasing oversupply of decent to good YouTube video makers, most of whom are working for very little effective hourly money. And I think many of them are wearing out on that hamster wheel.

It's not unlike the music business - most of the money gets made by the very few (Hello Hans! . And the rest are starving or making their real living with other means.


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## Denix (Nov 9, 2021)

Now I have to buy it! Awesome Trailer! 

...and they also used Sandstorm by Darude...


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

Denix said:


> Now I have to buy it! Awesome Trailer!
> 
> ...and they also used Sandstorm by Darude...



I hope that the trailer is satire; because it really works as such!


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

I downloaded the free version this morning and tried it for a while. This excludes the full delay functions of the paid version. The sound quality was perfectly clear; I don't know how accurately the sound transformations are across the different panning positions but I know that I don't great care, since I plan to use this for music and related sound effect, and not for doing audio for films or radio plays (there are much fuller, more expensive suites of software for that). So, after half an hour of play I'd have to say that this is well worth getting. The free version that is. For me, at this price, the paid version is easily worth it too; so I'm going to get that.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

Just to add, DearVR Pro from Dear Reality (on Plugin Alliance) does sound better (to me - better reverb maybe?) but doesn't have the LFO modulation that makes this so easy to get crazy effects from. You can record movements in DearVR by Latching the plugin, but that won't do for a good wobble back and forth across the room. Also - it costs a lot more and hasn't been included in recent sales. I got it second-hand. I can definitely recommend Panagement.


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## Russell Anderson (Nov 9, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Just to add, DearVR Pro from Dear Reality (on Plugin Alliance) does sound better (to me - better reverb maybe?) but doesn't have the LFO modulation that makes this so easy to get crazy effects from. You can record movements in DearVR by Latching the plugin, but that won't do for a good wobble back and forth across the room. Also - it costs a lot more and hasn't been included in recent sales. I got it second-hand. I can definitely recommend Panagement.


I almost bought DearVR Pro when it was accidentally put on $30 sale.

And then I removed it from my cart, deciding I was above GAS that day. 🤦‍♂️


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

Russell Anderson said:


> I almost bought DearVR Pro when it was accidentally put on $30 sale.
> 
> And then I removed it from my cart, deciding I was above GAS that day. 🤦‍♂️


And it is moments like that that have led me to buy so many less useful bargains. The most common case for me is discovering what the new best thing ever is - after the sale has ended.

Oh, to know what I am going to want, or even need, in advance! 

I only just got DearVR, having been keeping a close watch on transfer forums! It's only downside is the RAM and CPU burden if you have a lot of instances.


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## Tralen (Nov 9, 2021)

Just a little cheatsheet the developer posted some time ago, for those concerned about phase issues:


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## Tralen (Nov 9, 2021)

bill5 said:


> It seems this is well thought of here by at least some and it's well discounted now...can someone explain in English the fuss? What's so great about it? Lord knows I have plenty of effects plugins, but not closed-minded to something different, which this touts itself to be.


I really like Panagement because of the amount of control it provides over placement, reverb, width, phase relation and also, because it is very light. Disabling the reverb makes it much lighter if you don't need that.

It is also very cheap (or free), which is amazing for a positioning tool that covers most of what one would need to do with positioning, while still providing an immense amount of control.

This cheatsheet from the website gives an overview of everything that is featured:


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Just a little cheatsheet the developer posted some time ago, for those concerned about phase issues:


The cheatsheet is included with the download for both the free and paid version of Panagement. It is nice to know when I am contributing to horrible phasing issues that I barely understand!


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## Tralen (Nov 9, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> The cheatsheet is included with the download for both the free and paid version of Panagement. It is nice to know when I am contributing to horrible phasing issues that I barely understand!


Nice to know! My installation is probably so old that precedes its creation.

About DearVR, you mentioned having performance issues. I found that activating the Performance Mode reduces the CPU usage by half, and the result nulls perfectly with it disabled. It only made a subtle but audible difference when the position was actually automated.

Also, with a large buffer size, I found DearVR to be even lighter than Panagement, but the performance drops heavily as the buffer size is reduced.


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## bill5 (Nov 9, 2021)

Hey greatly appreciate all the replies and info. I have downloaded the free version and will check out! Not sure even at a sales price if it's really worth it for me to buy the full version as my needs are pretty modest.


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## patrick76 (Nov 9, 2021)

Denix said:


> Now I have to buy it! Awesome Trailer!
> 
> ...and they also used Sandstorm by Darude...



Thanks for this! I was feeling pretty lousy this morning and this definitely brightened my day a bit  This whole presentation rivals that of Prestige Worldwide.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Nice to know! My installation is probably so old that precedes its creation.
> 
> About DearVR, you mentioned having performance issues. I found that activating the Performance Mode reduces the CPU usage by half, and the result nulls perfectly with it disabled. It only made a subtle but audible difference when the position was actually automated.
> 
> Also, with a large buffer size, I found DearVR to be even lighter than Panagement, but the performance drops heavily as the buffer size is reduced.


Thanks for this; it really helped! I was running a lowish buffer size for my guitar to decrease latency. Increasing it works wonders. And, of course, I don't this plugin running whilst tracking my guitar.


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## SergeD (Nov 9, 2021)

If their binaural option is effective, could it be an alternative to products like CanOpener or (though no room simulation) Waves Abbey Road or Realphones?

Anyway, I already like how it's easy to pan instruments, the reverb is not bad, and finally other options like pre-delay, delay and decay can be experimented in this little lab for only 12$. Good deal


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## bill5 (Nov 9, 2021)

Can someone give me a brief answer to "binaural" and why that's a thing? I've read some stuff on the web but I'm unsure how/why it is or how useful it could be.


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## zah (Nov 9, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> Fair comparison?


210 Calories for a crispy chicken sandwich with fries and a coke?


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## Trash Panda (Nov 9, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Can someone give me a brief answer to "binaural" and why that's a thing? I've read some stuff on the web but I'm unsure how/why it is or how useful it could be.


Put some headphones on and watch this video. Explains it way better than text can.


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## bill5 (Nov 9, 2021)

Many thanks, but I don't have/use headphones. If that's the only way you can hear a diff, this plugin may not be useful to me after all  Likewise it's more of a cinematic effect kind of thing...


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## Trash Panda (Nov 9, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Many thanks, but I don't have/use headphones. If that's the only way you can hear a diff, this plugin may not be useful to me after all  Likewise it's more of a cinematic effect kind of thing...


It still makes a difference without headphones. Just try the free version.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Many thanks, but I don't have/use headphones. If that's the only way you can hear a diff, this plugin may not be useful to me after all  Likewise it's more of a cinematic effect kind of thing...


Yes, you need headphones for binaural effects because only headphones are binaural. It basically means hearing two things. The signal to the left ear is different to the signal to the right. You don't get that with speakers as both ears hear a some sound from both/all speakers.

When you have different signals in each ear you can create sounds in the brain that don't come from the sounds in the ears. Basically, the brain interprets the bifurcated data in terms of an additional note/beat.

Edited to add: paying special attention to the separation of sounds to left and right can still sound better/interesting with speakers.


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## Tralen (Nov 9, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Many thanks, but I don't have/use headphones. If that's the only way you can hear a diff, this plugin may not be useful to me after all  Likewise it's more of a cinematic effect kind of thing...


I got shivers the first time I heard a motorcycle coming from behind me listening in binaural. From a music production standpoint I don't know if it is useful, but I imagine it being quite useful for films and games.

And even though Panagement tries to sell itself as a binaural plugin (DearVR is much better for that), its strength lies in positioning instruments in the stereo/distance field, the way we need it in our music, rather than doing binaural effects.

As a test, try placing an instrument upfront in Panagement, then move it backwards gradually. You will notice the sound getting darker and muffled, in a natural way.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

Tralen said:


> I got shivers the first time I heard a motorcycle coming from behind me listening in binaural. From a music production standpoint I don't know if it is useful, but I imagine it being quite useful for films and games.
> 
> And even though Panagement tries to sell itself as a binaural plugin (DearVR is much better for that), its strength lies in positioning instruments in the stereo/distance field, the way we need it in our music, rather than doing binaural effects.
> 
> As a test, try placing an instrument upfront in Panagement, then move it backwards gradually. You will notice the sound getting darker and muffled, in a natural way.


That's a great thing about DearVR. With speakers, it works best with conspicuous effects. With headphones, you can place a vocal whispering in your ear, a drum underground, bass in your chest and guitar in yours head, whilst a brass section plays spread out around you. You can still get a hint of that with speakers, but it can be harder to interpret spatially if it isn't spread in front of you and can seem more like a variation in frequencies and volume (which it largely is).


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## Pier (Nov 9, 2021)

Crowe said:


> I have no idea if Mr Snake Oil has anything useful to say these days. I despise everything about his youtube style and have long since blocked his videos.
> 
> I cannot advise you to base your impressions on one of his videos.


I used to like his videos but I admit I haven't watched any in a long time.

This one is not great. Panagement is obviously not a plugin meant to be used on the master bus.


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## Crowe (Nov 9, 2021)

Pier said:


> I used to like his videos but I admit I haven't watched any in a long time.
> 
> This one is not great. Panagement is obviously not a plugin meant to be used on the master bus.


Huh. No. It's either for Sound Design or to treat a section or instrument. Clearly XD.


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## Loïc D (Nov 9, 2021)

Pier said:


> This one is not great. Panagement is obviously not a plugin meant to be used on the master bus.


 I didn’t watch his vids since I tend to avoid clickbait titles.
But putting panagement on master bus, lol. Now who’s the snake oil ?…


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## rrichard63 (Nov 9, 2021)

Has anybody done a comparison between Panagement and Mir2 and/or Precedence+Breeze and/or Virtual Sound Stage Pro and/or EAReverb and/or Inspirata?


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 9, 2021)

I just bought panagement on the $12 sale, no brainer. it is a handy little tool, even the free version is. That being said, its not in the same league as some of the others that have been mentioned such as MIR. But if I were not using MIR, I would definitely consider using Panagement for stage placement, in combination with something else for ER's and tails, etc. I like the fact that it does that one task in an isolated fashion, then I can create a virtual soundspace however I want using other reverb tools on top off it. I would basically only use it for panning, width and distance. 

EAReverb was kind of cool, but its not compatible with newer versions of MacOS such as Catalina...is it dead-ware? We don't know...but I rather liked it also for creating non-real virtual sound stages though I never really completely figured out its ER generation...but I didn't give it that much time before it stopped working on MacOS.

VSS, I never card for, and the price is too high in my view for what it is. There is a reason its hardly ever mentioned by anyone IMHO.

Precedence+Breeze is also quite a bit more advanced in terms of the reverb side of things, its not my cup of tea, but anyway, its more of a full featured thing, whereas Panagement is really handling one part of the processl. Its a unique tool in this regard. Even the free version does all that you need from it, but for $12 I bought it on sale, why not.


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## Nico5 (Nov 9, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I don't have/use headphones


A significant percentage of listening happens on headphones these days. 

That’s something to remember, if mixing on speakers only, but targeting a very wide audience. 

On headphones extreme panning can be much more startling than on speakers.


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## bill5 (Nov 9, 2021)

Bee_Abney said:


> Yes, you need headphones for binaural effects because only headphones are binaural. It basically means hearing two things. The signal to the left ear is different to the signal to the right. You don't get that with speakers as both ears hear a some sound from both/all speakers.


I disagree. I can hear things distinctly in the L or R speaker with some recordings (presumably due largely to hard panning, although something like this might also be used).


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## Pier (Nov 9, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> A significant percentage of listening happens on headphones these days.


I'd bet the majority of music (+50%) is listened on headphones.


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## Tralen (Nov 9, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> On headphones extreme panning can be much more startling than on speakers.


This is a very good point about headphones: there is no crossfeed. They present a very different experience from stereo (speakers in a room), where each ear still listens to the signal from the other side, but delayed and filtered by your head.

In headphones, a hard panned signal is simply absent from the opposite channel, creating an unnatural listening experience.


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## Pier (Nov 9, 2021)

Tralen said:


> This is a very good point about headphones: there is no crossfeed. They present a very different experience from stereo (speakers in a room), where each ear still listens to the signal from the other side, but delayed and filtered by your head.











CanOpener Studio, by Goodhertz


Conjure speakers from your headphones.




goodhertz.co


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## bill5 (Nov 9, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> A significant percentage of listening happens on headphones these days.
> 
> That’s something to remember, if mixing on speakers only, but targeting a very wide audience.
> 
> On headphones extreme panning can be much more startling than on speakers.


Thanks and I hear you but I'm not really targeting any audience  Still, it can't hurt to try it out, I'm curious.


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## Tralen (Nov 9, 2021)

Pier said:


> CanOpener Studio, by Goodhertz
> 
> 
> Conjure speakers from your headphones.
> ...


Oh, I moved from Canopener to Airwindows Monitoring, I think it emulates crossfeed much better.

In any case, my point was actually the opposite: if you use something like Canopener while mixing, you might not notice how it will be perceived on headphones by listeners. This was the point @Nico5 was making about listening only through speakers.


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## Pier (Nov 9, 2021)

Tralen said:


> my point was actually the opposite: if you use something like Canopener while mixing, you might not notice how it will be perceived on headphones by listeners


Ah I missed that!

And yeah I agree.


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## Bee_Abney (Nov 9, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I disagree. I can hear things distinctly in the L or R speaker with some recordings (presumably due largely to hard panning, although something like this might also be used).


Yes. You can hear them with both ears, louder and more distinctly in one, depending on which way you are facing. That's stereo. Binaural is when each ear cannot hear what the other ear hears. Panning a sound increases the volume in one headphone and decreases it in the other. Mono is not literally mono, but means that each headphone is playing the same qualitative sounds. But the two signals reaching the individual ears from the individual headphones are separate and neither ear receives the same signal as the other. Those signals are numerically distinct, and can vary in quality up to the capacity of the equipment. (For simplicity's sake I'm ignoring background sounds and unnocieable bleeding of sound from each headphone.)

That is why headphones are binaural rather than stereo, strictly speaking. 

Hearing that one sound is only coming from one loud speaker is not the same as only receivng that sound wave in one ear.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 9, 2021)

I don't remember the source, but they said 80% of music is listened to in headphones today. I am certainly going to experiment with offering a binaural mix beside a stereo mix. See if it's worth it.


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## Nico5 (Nov 9, 2021)

Headphones (and other listening environments) have shaped music for a very long time:






How Headphones are Changing Music Production — Sage Audio


The use of headphones instead of traditional speakers is drastically changing how music is being listened to, recorded, mixed and mastered.




www.sageaudio.com


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## dunamisstudio (Nov 9, 2021)

Nico5 said:


> Fair comparison?


that meal is actually three dollars less in my area.


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## Nico5 (Nov 9, 2021)

dunamisstudio said:


> that meal is actually three dollars less in my area.


that price was listed online *with home delivery* in downtown Seattle


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## bigcatJC (Nov 9, 2021)

Does anyone have suggestions for positioning orchestral instruments or just sections? Especially far settings - Strings, winds, brass, perc?


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## Tralen (Nov 9, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> Does anyone have suggestions for positioning orchestral instruments or just sections? Especially far settings - Strings, winds, brass, perc?


Panagement?

Edit: I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean specific settings?


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## antret (Nov 9, 2021)

I have both Panagement 2 and Precedence as my 'positioners'. Generally speaking, I would give precedence the nod over Panagement as I like how precedence sounds. Gives a bit of '3d-ness' to most sounds. The down side of Precedence is that a small movement of the position can result in something akin to 'ripping' the sound into a left and right component (I'm exaggerating a bit, but I think you get what I'm driving at) and I think that's where the phase issue complaint about Precedence comes in...

I cant really speak to the 'binaural-ality' of Panagement because I cant really tell.  It does place things in stereo space in a pleasing way though... different than Precedence. I'm not sure if the reverbs or the delay are 'world beaters/top of class' effects, but I do like them (the reverbs a bit more than the delay) and for many situations they work great! If anything, this all in one approach is seen as plus for panagement.... in my book at least. Lots of tweakability (if subtle), the fact that you can morph the position SMOOTHLY with automation/on board LFO is a huge plus over Precedence (in all fairness the the Precedence Devs did say that it was not designed for that).

Maybe worth noting .... I did not consider the purchase at full price, but used the very generous free version for a long while. This is a no brainer price for the tool.


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## bigcatJC (Nov 9, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Panagement?
> 
> Edit: I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean specific settings?


Yes, settings for positioning orchestral instruments in Panagement. I've been playing with the free version and enjoy it. I was wondering - Figuring, actually - that someone had better knowledge than I did for setting up instruments like a standard orchestra stage. How far back is too far back? Of course I know that generally, strings closest to the front, winds behind that, brass behind winds, percussion in the rear. Does anyone have guesses or settings they like?


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 9, 2021)

The answer would depend on the samples you have and how they were mic'd. This is why I use that free Proximity VST effect a lot. With it you can add distance to a sample in only the aspects that sample needs. I find, for instance, that certain VIs need a lot of proximity effect (EQ removing the low end), but not so much air absorption (EQ removing the high end). The reverse might be true for others. Panagement probably does both, but with the Proximity VST you can do both separately. And you can separately do the other distance things too, such as stereo narrowing and gain reduction.

This makes me think that I could use Panagement first for positioning, then sometimes add a Proximity before it just to fine-tune one parameter (e. g. reduce the proximity effect).

Proximity has early reflections but I don't think it's prominent enough. Too subtle, so I turn to other plugins for ER.

Anyway, when messing around with orchestral instruments and Panagement, one of the things I find myself doing all the time is reducing the stereo width of woodwinds to ~50%. One thing that could improve in Panagement is that usually I don't want gain reduction, so I always have to compensate for it manually after positioning.

It's very easy to lose perspective when doing these things, so going back to a reference recording to check your settings is very important.


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## Tralen (Nov 10, 2021)

bigcatJC said:


> Yes, settings for positioning orchestral instruments in Panagement. I've been playing with the free version and enjoy it. I was wondering - Figuring, actually - that someone had better knowledge than I did for setting up instruments like a standard orchestra stage. How far back is too far back? Of course I know that generally, strings closest to the front, winds behind that, brass behind winds, percussion in the rear. Does anyone have guesses or settings they like?


I would start from back to front: add the furthermost instrument first and set it up so that it sounds how you like. Copy the Panagement instance to the next instrument and adjust the position and settings. You will probably need to adjust the output slider for each instrument.

I find Panagement works better with sparse arrangements, as there is considerable buildup from the reverb, so I would watch for the "LATE" little knob if your arrangement is denser. If the buildup is too muddy, you could also reduce the "Size" of the reverb or the "Tail" (or disable it altogether).

As @Nando Florestan explained, depending on the stereo information of your samples, you might need to adjust the width, specially if the instrument is distant. The "WIDE" little knob controls the relationship between the width and the distance, and it will reduce the width of distant instruments, failing that, you also have the "Width" big knob.

The "Tilt" big knob is very useful to sit instruments from different libraries at the same distance. You can use it to darken/brighten the sound.


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## gordinho (Nov 15, 2021)

Hopefully it'll hit $12 again


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