# Outboard Gear to aid high CPU Meter (Powercore/UAD users jump in!)



## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 9, 2011)

Hi!


I am currently using Intel Core i7 2.93 Ghz with a lot of Vienna Suite plug ins 6 Aethers and 3 Vienna Convolution Reverb plus some plug ins. 

Naturally, my CPU Meter is running quite high. I am not looking to exert more pressure on my CPU. I think it is tricky during offline bouncing when there is very little head room left.

Plus, I recently moved to 64-bit with 24 GB RAM - while it works really well, for some reason my performance has decresed by 25%.

Now while playback, my system is running around 80%. And this is at 1024 Buffer.

This rules out live input most of the times.


I am interested in buying something like UAD or Powercore.

My Primary concern in Reverb. Aether is great but its too CPU hungry and I am fed up on ITB Reverb Processing - it always eats up a lot. I am ready to invest in a dedicated external processor.


I suspect the Powercore has better reverbs than UAD. If that is the case, the winner is clear for me.


Any suggestions or personal reviews are welcome!!!


Thanks.


Best,


Tanuj.


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## JT3_Jon (Jan 9, 2011)

I cant speak for Powercore, but I LOVE the UAD plate reverbs, especially the 250. Great at adding space without being noticeable (until you turn it off!) Very natural sounding. I even use to use Dreamverb for my orchestral work to some good effect; though it seems the modern reverbs like Aether & altiverb do this better, I thought Dreamverb sounded just fine at the time.
 
Here is a link to a score I did a couple of years ago, which used only UAD for reverb (mainly dreamverb; vocals through plate 140). At the time I was on a G5 system and it couldn't handle playing all my samples plus reverb: http://www.fieldsfaraway.com/final.html Granted its old and one of my first film scores, at least you can the UAD in action.  

I hope others with more experience with both will chime in.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 9, 2011)

Hi Tanuj, 

Good questions especially to save on CPU. Love Aether but I see that you're using 6 instances - this is naturally going to cause your CPU usage to be quite high. Before going to a card-based system, you might want to check out the demo trial of 2cAudio's Breeze. Tests indicate that you can run literally hundreds of instances (500 on a Mac G5 for example) before hitting the CPU threshold of pain. Its based on true stereo architecture and although simpler than Aether, Breeze sounds great. Being able to use multiple reverb instances across buss mixes without the CPU limitation is the stuff of dreams. A few guys are using Breeze to do early and loose reflections and using Aether as a final verb glue.

If you're set on getting a processor card solution, there is a rumor that UAD might be in the process of modeling the Lexicon 224XL which would make having the UAD-2 processor card a consideration. Currently the UAD crop of reverb emus are EMT140 and EMT250 which are nice reverbs - both found at Ocean Way. VSS3 from Powercore is based on the TC4000 and is a very clean reverb with some tail chorusing in the algorithm. The problem with card based systems is the cost of the card has to figured in before you even start in with the plug-ins you want. 

Now if Lexicon or Bricasti Designs decided on a processor card system to host their reverb algorithms then all bets are off. Hope this helps!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 9, 2011)

Hey Frederick,

I already picked up Breeze at the special price! 

Its a great sounding reverb but its really only giving me an advantage of a maximum 15% at best over Aether.

Now I am not an expert on Reverbs but Aether does really add some magic! I am sure with some hard work, I can make Breeze sound just like it. 

But here are the numbers:

If I bypass my Reverbs and my Master Plug in chain - I off load 50% processing. 

Thats a huge gain! 


And if I get TC or UAD - Of course, I am getting a lot more than just reverbs for the price. 


Jon,

Good music you have there. Its mixed nicely. Are you still using UAD? Do you have any recent music you have done. That would be more of a naked demo for me.



Thanks for replying guys!



Best,

Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 9, 2011)

I would buy the Bricasti M7 in a heart beat if it was available like the Powercore.


I believe, you can only load one instance per unit at a time, right? Now Buying 4-5 of those, will be a serious hole in the bank balance!!!!!!!!


Tanuj.


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## chimuelo (Jan 9, 2011)

DSP cards are great but and I have always used DSP. The only Native needs I have are sample based instruments.
But before you go blowing any cash or using new plugs when you are already use to certain workflows.
Overclock that slow boy and tweak your RAM.
I use a puny i7 930 and also an i3 530 and as long as you are in the 3.5GHz range with decent RAM speed you can see as much as 50% increases using Native stuff.

Why not download this and share your specs.
http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

I bet that CPU & RAM can be jumped at least 600MHz on stock cooling.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 10, 2011)

chimuelo,


I am always concerned about overclocking. In India, electricity is not very clean at times and I dont want any problems with my computer. 

I also have to carry it around for a lot of advertising work. I do carry my own Power Surge Protector but I am not very confident about overclocking anything. I have no experience with it.


You have earlier spoken very highly of DSP cards and I even have some you your demos that you had posted a year back here on Vi Control. They sounded fantastic!

I know this, would be a quick fix - but I am really looking to invest in DSP technology as an alternative for a headache free working environment - plus of course TC Reverbs are world class - I will also get access to MD3 Mastering, Character and the Tap Factory - not a bad thing to have, I would say!

Of course, the ultimate Reverb is Bricasti M7 but I can only use one instance per unit. Thats a huge limitation. Of course, If I am ever a million-dollar composer, I will pick up 5 of those!

Here is my Computer spec nonetheless. Please advice on overclocking. Does it overclock everytime I switch on my computer? Or it just has to do it once and then its permanent?


Thanks.


Regards,

Tanuj.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 10, 2011)

There are a lot of great native verbs coming out now but I love my UAD EMT Plate 14ò    ˜­    ˜    ˜     ˜N    ˜ó    ˜    ˜Y    ˜â    ˜_    ˜·    ˜*@    ˜*    ˜,n    ˜,~    ˜,’    ˜-(    ˜2_    ˜2i    ˜2’    ˜2ë    ˜4     ˜4ƒ    ˜9ö    ˜:F    ˜JX    ˜JŸ    ˜_    ˜_¥    ˜c‘    ˜d


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## chimuelo (Jan 10, 2011)

Brotha' Man you can pm me and I will be happy to link you with some demo's of Kontakt using 64 samples @ .07msec @ 96k in realtime using nothing but DSP processing. Even the 32bit Integer Multitrack recorder I use still sounds better that every DAW I own. Those stems are what I send to PTools engineers for alignments and mastering.
I would have loved to use Reaper, Cubase or Sonar and save tons of money but I get my work based on performance/chops and sound quality.
Even if the difference is small its still noticable I must use that edge to keep my name in the game.
Used cards are incredible bargains. You can get your feet wet for 200 bucks....!!
Once you try that you'll wonder how come you never used it combined with Native.
That's what I do live and for recording. And with a meger i7 930 and 18 x AD21369 DSP chips I automate entire shows or recordings all while providing realtime IEMs or monitoring. 
So both are vital IMHO.
I sent you a realtime live performance recording using the old DSP cards using regular FMR preamps and SM58's w/ a D112 for kick.
Very simple.

EDIT: Well, there's no way to send in the pm's sorry.
You can pm me your email. Hope you don't mind Jazz Fusion ala Dixie Dregs style.
BTW those specs are painfull, but with extra DSP juice they will work fine.
I also love the Mahabharata and Ramayana. I love reading ancient sanskrit texts converted to English.


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 10, 2011)

I have a Powercore X8 and a bunch of hardware reverbs.

I like VSS3 but my hardware definitely trumps it. 

If I had it to do over I'd go with the UAD system. They are much more aggressively developing new software products than TC. 

.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2011)

One thing to be aware of is that not all card-based systems actually offload the processing. I've never worked with a Powercore, but - great as both of them are - I wouldn't include lowered processing as a reason to buy the SSL Duende or UAD-1 (dunno bout the 2). On the other hand, TDM systems definitely do run the processors on the chips.

Subtext: you might also consider a $50 XP machine and a basic audio interface as a solution. And if you're running Logic and have an extra Mac (or Hackintosh), you can use Logic Nodes.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you for taking the time to reply everyone!


chimeluo, you can email any examples you may have on [email protected]

Jazz Fusion is just fine! Send it across! I saw Ramayana and Mahabharat TV shows as a kid (It was insanely popular in India and was very accurate). Of course, lots of quotes get used by my parents and other elderly people very often! I am not religious but the texts sure are very rich in history!

I think, I am convinced I need a DSP product so that I can stop worrying about ITB Post Production issues for some time. Plus, I get access to a world of advanced plug ins! I am really bending towards UAD - 2 Quad Omni. 

It has an amazing set of plug ins and its best to buy the top end card because of processing power and value for money on the plug ins. I can off load most of my processing onto this card and use my sequencer for VI's and some basic processing with some other amazing VST's I have.

TC Electronic has great stuff but I think as Jack Weaver mentioned, UAD is really at their game and are coming up with some fantastic plug ins. The plates and Dreamverb seem really nice plug ins. And if Frederick is right, the Lexicon plug in is not a bad thing to have at all!

Nick,

I could use another machine but again its about relying on another computer for processing and something like UAD-2 Quad really will take care of that with minimum space and plus I get access to world class plug ins for use beyond orchestral arrangements.

Jack,

What Hardware Reverb are you using? Can you post something here? Thanks!


Wst3, 

Thank you for your detailed reply. Its really helpful to get a good review from actual users. There is no doubt that UAD plug ins are just great. They have the best stuff on it. I was just concerned about the Reverbs included for Orchestral music.

Ashermusic, 

If I had the money, I would buy the M7 but one instance per unit really is a huge limitation and its not at all cheap! I would be shelling out $15,000 on just reverb! But it does sound really good from whatever little demos I have heard!


I think as of now, UAD-2 seems like the way to go. I checked out Dreamverb and the EMT plates - they sound great!



Best,

Tanuj.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 10, 2011)

Could be really hard to beat UAD-2 in terms of collective versatility and sheer sound quality. Good luck in your final decision Tanuj.

Edit: by the way, Jack has the best of the best for hardware reverbs (Bricasti M7)


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## chimuelo (Jan 10, 2011)

Brotha'Man Vibrato, I sent you a live song, and a sequenced one.
Using the old Scope cards.
Didn't send any of the XITE-1 stuff since I didn't think you wanted to drop 4 large.


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 10, 2011)

Hi Tanuj,

Yes a I do have a couple of M7's and you're right having more than one is useful. I tend to use one on strings and another on brass. However you could use one successfully by printing reverb on your various stems. That's been done for decades in recording studios. It may take a bit longer but your results should be good. 

Also in a part of this thread Frederick mentions the Lexicon software. I have a couple of hardware PCM96's that I use for WW's and Perc. I know that like me you're a long time VSL user. The 96 has allowed me to principally go back to VSL for orchestral percussion. I do use the VSL convo reverb w/ FORTI & SERTI ER's to precondition the sends to the PCM96's for both percussion & WW. These give the impression of more distance to the WW's & perc. It really has extended the life of my VSL samples - since they're recorded in the Silent Stage a bit or ER is really helpful. 

If I didn't have hardware reverbs, personally I would get the Lexicon software. I would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the hardware and the software on a blindfold listening test. Plus you can use multiple instances. That's always a good thing. 

A few months back I did a reasonably exhaustive a/b comparison of both M7 hardware and IR copies of it using LASS & Hollywood Strings as the source material. You can probably find that thread on the forum somewhere. Unfortunately I have taken down the audio files since I did them in 24-bit WAV files and they took up a reasonable amount of space on my server. However there was quite a bit of commentary by several people that could be informative. 

I do have several software reverbs (including Powercore VSS3) that I like - EOS, Altiverb, Aether, VSL, Space Designer and bit of this and that. They all have their appropriate places. 

If I could only have one reverb and couldn't afford hardware then personally I'd get the Lexicon package. (Well, Mir Pro, if it has the right workflow when it comes out will be able to do things that not even the Bricasti hardware will be able to do. But we'll see what is the eventual shape of this product before jumping. If only it could sit in its own computer and we could bus things in and out of it - that would be perfect.) 

Sorry to report that I don't have any personal experience with the UAD - but if I did more studio recording than VI's these days I'd definitely pick one up. Although I've started to really get back into hardware compressors (VCA and discrete - not tubes) these days. A couple of years ago I got rid my Pro Tools rig and tube outboard gear and concentrated on Logic. The nice thing about UAD is that they have nice emulation of many of these things - some of the Neve and SSL stuff. 

A nice piece of kit that I'm currently intrigued with is Cytomic's The Glue. A great software emulation of the the SSL XL G384 bus compressor (from the 80's 4000 console) that has some extended rendering capabilities (offline) that make it sound incredibly like the hardware. It also has built-in side chain EQ (real helpful) and a Dry/Wet ratio knob that effectively recreates parallel processing with one knob instead of taking the time to create another AUX setup within Logic. It only costs $99 and you can try it out first for free. 



.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 11, 2011)

Jack,

What you say makes sense. 

However, the key problem here is no more load on the CPU. I want to be able to run everything at 256 buffer with most of my processing off a DSP card. Right now I am at 1024 buffer with 80% CPU meter.


This is very important. While Lexicon Reverbs might be great (I have Aether and Breeze which are a least closely comparable to the Lexicon Verbs) - If I am going to spend $1600 on another set of VST Reverbs - I might as well, think of investing in a DSP technology.


UAD 2 Quad looks good and very tempting but I am still worried about the use of EMT Plates and Dream Verb on orchestral music. Naturally, since this kind of music is my parimary area, I would like to think I am covered.

While the TC Powercore 6000 may not have the great emulations, it does have very good reverbs - so I can host my Reverbs and Mastering on this.


Its a really tough decision. 


And of course UAD 2 Quad Omni is not cheap. 


Bricasti M7 is clearly the best but if I could even load two instances off a single device, it would be worth it!!! I mean its still worth it I am sure.

I dont even know how I would use Bricasti in my set up. I am currently using Fireface 800. 

But I am setting up a pro Control Room by July. So I will have Lynx AD/DA and Audient ASP 2802 DAW/Analogue mixer/summing. This will allow me to use M7 much easily I suppose.

But I am new to this area and I am not sure how I would use Bricasti. It would mean, I am running different Reverbs in my template but at the time of printing, I would use M7 - this will be quite different. I am not sure I want to do that.



So ideal case scenario:

1. DSP Processing so that I dont tax my CPU anymore and can run a buffer size of at least 256.

2. Multiple Reverb Instances so that I can be Virtual right till the end.

3. A solution that can fit in my work flow without tooo many changes. It should be portable so that I can carry it with me to studios when I am working on commercials. Another computer just for reverbs will be too bulky a system. Its an option but not my ideal wish.


I am slightly confused right now!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Jack Weaver (Jan 11, 2011)

Wow, 1024? Really?

What a drag. I'm at 512 and it's really a hassle. 

What do you think the main culprit is causing this?

.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 11, 2011)

I recently moved to 64-bit Cubase. And for some reason Aether is more demanding in 64-bit. 


So I lost 30% of performance. It wasnt great to start with in 32-bit. I was still at 512 and as you said, its a drag.


If I remove Aether and use Breeze, I get my 30% back. But if you see, over all I would like my DAW to be more responsive in MIDI and have room for other VST's like Omnisphere etc when I am working on a hybrid track.


Aether is clearly the heaviest thing I have used till now. This is all on the most basic settings. I cant even do an offline bounce with it running. But it does sound stunning. I am afraid I will have to let go of Aether for now. 

If I was still on Cubase 32-bit, I could have used both Aether and Breeze to get good results.


Tanuj.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 11, 2011)

vibrato @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> UAD 2 Quad looks good and very tempting but I am still worried about the use of EMT Plates and Dream Verb on orchestral music. Naturally, since this kind of music is my parimary area, I would like to think I am covered.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Tanuj.



You needn't worry if you buy the UAD. If you have the 2 plates and a convolution reverb, you have it covered for orchestral music. I never use Dreamverb, however. 

Did you listen to the trailer I posted in the thread about "scoring libraries" and continuing to compose in that style, etc. ? That is a combo of mostly the UAD Plate 140 and a little of Logic's Space Designer.

The only disadvantage is that using plugin on a DSP card means dealing with latency, so when I play parts in I use Logic's Low Latency Mode which temporarily bypasses latency inducing plugs.


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## futur2 (Jan 11, 2011)

vibrato @ Tue Jan 11 said:


> I recently moved to 64-bit Cubase. And for some reason Aether is more demanding in 64-bit.
> 
> 
> So I lost 30% of performance. It wasnt great to start with in 32-bit. I was still at 512 and as you said, its a drag.
> ...



sounds like aether and 64-bit cubase are the main culprits. i would suggest testing a different reverb like the lex and eventually going back to 32-bit cubase. you can use the ram heavy stuff like kontakt or spectrasonics with jbridge and of course ve pro for vsl. no problem, it works... and even if this all ain't no option for you i think it's always better to spec up your pc than buy cards from whatever manufacturer...


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## JohnG (Jan 11, 2011)

1024 is almost unplayable for anything rhythmic -- gotta fix that!

I bought a fabulous UAD card for my year-end treat; my first plug-ins ever. However, I'm pretty sure that I read it automatically increases latency and if you use a lot of FX in succession it does more -- is that right?

For years I've been using outboard (digital) reverb so that I'd be immune to software updates. For composing -- by contrast with final mixes with separate reverbs on stems -- this has been fine at every level I've seen.

Which leads me to ask you, Tanuj, whether you could skip having so many reverbs? I know it might sound heretical but I'm not even sure why you have so many already, unless you are delivering final stems for a TV show or movie mixed on your own personal rig. (Now that I re-read that, I realise there could be other reasons, but still...)

And even so, perhaps you could "stage" your use of reverb to lower latency. Could you add to your mixing board a send that goes to a single stereo reverb for composing, only turning on the other reverbs for stems at the very last stage?


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## chimuelo (Jan 11, 2011)

FWIW I have seen guys using 4-8 cheap ass, used MPX reverbs from Lexicon, and as long as you dont need any motion in the effect they sound fine.
Of course higher end would be a better choice, but Jeez for 1000 USD you can have 4 x real effects that dont gag your DAW or need constant updating.
FOH engineers call this array a poor mans 480L.

At the end of the day, they are just DSP cards, but they use their own RAM instead of system RAM. Hence no gagging CPU's or latency issues.
All hardware reverbs are made with DSP chips, except for real Plate, Spring and Disc based units.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 11, 2011)

John,


I think you are right. I must find a more economical solution to my problem. I have been experimenting and I may have figured out a way to reduce CPU usage by shifting to Breeze and just run one Master Aether.


Plus I can switch off my Mastering plug ins while I compose.


Most of the time, I give my files pretty much mixed because engineers either dont have time or the expertise to handle orchestral music. I am not aware of any specialist in Orchestral music stage positioning in Mumbai at the moment. 

And I cannot leave such things in the hands of people who dont know what they are doing.


For now, I am going to re-do my template. I already have a lot of good plug ins. I must work hard to make them work to my advantage. 

And finally, I think I will save up some more money and get the Bricasti M7 or something later for a final touch on my mixes and for other non-orchestral stuff as well. It sounds fantastic! 

I want to thank you all for your time and efforts. This problem isnt over fully. This will still not give me really good performance on my PC but I can make do for sometime, until I spend enough time to think about what to buy.


Thank you all!!!!!


Regards,

Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 17, 2011)

As an immediate solution I am thinking of using another computer to off load processing.


I have a Core 2 Quad lying around with 8 GB RAM.


I am running Cubase 5.5 64-bit. 

How can I host my reverbs on a second machine? 


I will have to send outputs to the second machine and bring them back in. But how do I do sends and stuff like that?

Anyone else here doing the same?


Thanks.

Best,

Tanuj.


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