# It's that Time of Year......Brass libraries



## José Herring (Apr 19, 2022)

It's that time of year when I can't stop thinking about Brass libraries. This time specifically I need a library recorded in situ with individual patches for each part. 

So for me it's between, Berlin or VSL Syncrhon. Does anybody have both and can talk a little about year, pros, cons, strengths weeknesses....?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 19, 2022)

Synchron Player >>> SINE 
so just in terms of workflow and avoidance of anger that’s something to consider


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 19, 2022)

What are you looking for over what you have? If I recall, your demo in the Olympic Fanfare thread I started was quite good.

I have both Berlin and VSL if you have specific questions.


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## José Herring (Apr 19, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What are you looking for over what you have? If I recall, your demo in the Olympic Fanfare thread I started was quite good.
> 
> I have both Berlin and VSL if you have specific questions.


I'm looking for a brass library that allows me to think in the same way that I think about brass. If that makes sense. I have a lot of libraries but it is still incredibly hard for me to get individual parts to sound right. I can do it with trickery, reverb, placement, panning ect...but I'm tired of that shit.

I'm thinking that brass libraries with at least two individual patches say trp 1 and trp 2 recorded in the same space with the same mics, ect... Berlin I know is fully individual with VSL having just one and two solo patches, but even that would help me a lot.


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## ryans (Apr 19, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I'm looking for a brass library that allows me to think in the same way that I think about brass. If that makes sense.


That makes complete sense.

I have Berlin brass. Every patch is beautiful, in isolation, but chords still don't work for me. It's not because the sampling or programming is bad. 

I think, when a live brass section plays a chord, the players are in constant adjustment, listening to each other and altering their pitch until the chord sings.

Static samples don't do this, and to my ear, the difference is not subtle, it's massive.


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## GtrString (Apr 20, 2022)

I know, the Christmas cues are coming..


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## Trash Panda (Apr 20, 2022)

Sounds like it’s high time you took the Infinite Brass plunge. 🙂


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Sounds like it’s high time you took the Infinite Brass plunge. 🙂


I've listened a lot. It's just not my type of sound. I want it to be. Looks to be very flexible, but I just can't get use to the tone quality.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 20, 2022)

Did you watch this glowing endorsement?


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## ModalRealist (Apr 20, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I've listened a lot. It's just not my type of sound. I want it to be. Looks to be very flexible, but I just can't get use to the tone quality.


Could you post us a tone example of what you're looking for?


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

ModalRealist said:


> Could you post us a tone example of what you're looking for?


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## Simon Lee (Apr 20, 2022)

I think I was watching a @Blakus YouTube video where he was having the same problem of blending so he used a patch with multiplayers playing the leading tone then filled out the voicing with individual player patches.


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## RogiervG (Apr 20, 2022)

In general:

All mentioned libs are good.. and are bad.. it's in the eye of the beholder which it is.
Soundwise, you might prefer one of the other, player wise it's a workfow thingy, does it suit you or not.
Has it has many bugs or not etc...

We cannot choose for you.. only project our experiences (for whatever they are worth, your workflow might differ from mine, your sonic preference might also be different)

I personally am not so fond of Synchron brass for e.g. more exposed soloistic usage (e.g. the horn 1 and 2 are not that good). i don't have it, but have done a lot of listening from music/walkthroughs made with it. Ensemble usage is good though, not perfect.. but good.
Also there is something with the legato's, not sure what, but they are in lesser quality than the older brass libraries VSL has.. 

I have Berlin Brass Staffpad, and it is a very nice sounding, versatile library as far as i've used it (not that long to be honest, as of yet: just got it a few days now) and listened to the renders done from others. No idea how this reflects the normal library (being Sine or Kontakt), since it's an alternate version of Berlin Brass specifically designed for staffpad.


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## ModalRealist (Apr 20, 2022)

@José Herring good taste! I have no idea how my libraries will sound doing these but I'll mockup a few bars from each later today with those as a reference. If you can keep your credit card in your pocket that long.


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## b_elliott (Apr 20, 2022)

José Herring said:


>



After listening to these lovely brass this idea occurred: have you tried to do a spectral or eq match? 
Until the new brass library comes to view, I would try this:
1. Create a shortened wav clip from either of your above references. 
2. Add the wav as your reference to your eq match app (IKM Master Match for me; others exist).
3. Apply the eq curve of the Mahler or Bruckner horns to your horn tracks using your existing library(s).
4. QC using bypass or A/B (ADPTR Metric A/B in my case). 
5. Tweak based on the golden rule: less is more. 

Worth a shot if you have not already explored that option. 
Cheers, Bill


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## Zanshin (Apr 20, 2022)

I feel like Synchron-ized Dimension Brass should be a consideration for you @José Herring Here's is a walkthough @dcoscina did of the trumpets and horns:


I remember you liking the trombones from JXL Brass, I know it only has solo players for the trumpet, horn, and trombone, but what it makes up for is that it's very internally consistent and the dynamic range is probably unrivaled (the low dynamics are super sweet and don't get enough attention). JXL Brass with the Trumpets from BB is a winning combo IMO.

I like Berlin Brass and Synchron Brass too, but not quite as much the aforementioned two.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 20, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I feel like Synchron-ized Dimension Brass should be a consideration for you @José Herring Here's is a walkthough @dcoscina did of the trumpets and horns:
> 
> 
> I remember you liking the trombones from JXL Brass, I know it only has solo players for the trumpet, horn, and trombone, but what it makes up for is that it's very internally consistent and the dynamic range is probably unrivaled (the low dynamics are super sweet and don't get enough attention). JXL Brass with the Trumpets from BB is a winning combo IMO.
> ...



I was going to mention these but they do not meet the “in situ” criterium.


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## Zanshin (Apr 20, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I was going to mention these but they do not meet the “in situ” criterium.


Yeah I considered that, but I think his main concern is he doesn't want to mess with reverbs and setup for it to work. Syz Dim Brass will work right out of the box, no setup needed.


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## sostenuto (Apr 20, 2022)

Considering all (4) BBO Brass choices _ on sale now for ~ $225. Do these leave major gaps compared to typical Brass orchestral content ?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 20, 2022)

Synchron Brass has more articulations. And BBO brass is just ensemble patches. So your major gap would be solo brass instruments. So for José’s purposes BBO would be out of the question.


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 20, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I feel like Synchron-ized Dimension Brass should be a consideration for you @José Herring Here's is a walkthough @dcoscina did of the trumpets and horns:
> 
> 
> I remember you liking the trombones from JXL Brass, I know it only has solo players for the trumpet, horn, and trombone, but what it makes up for is that it's very internally consistent and the dynamic range is probably unrivaled (the low dynamics are super sweet and don't get enough attention). JXL Brass with the Trumpets from BB is a winning combo IMO.
> ...



You know I love Dimension Brass, but the bleed in the samples do not make for a great solo instrument experience. Synchron or Berlin Brass would be more appropriate if the sound suits him.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 20, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I've listened a lot. It's just not my type of sound. I want it to be. Looks to be very flexible, but I just can't get use to the tone quality.


Have you heard the examples below since the v1.6 update?

The solo trombone is live, but the rest is Infinite.






Maybe we're hearing different things as it relates to tone.


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## sostenuto (Apr 20, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Synchron Brass has more articulations. And BBO brass is just ensemble patches. So your major gap would be solo brass instruments. So for José’s purposes BBO would be out of the question.


THX. Re-read Jose' post.
Hoping for solutions < $400.-$600. 
Kirk Hunter - Kinetic Brass Motion also of interest yet sections of (4) instruments. Oh well.


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## Zanshin (Apr 20, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> You know I love Dimension Brass, but the bleed in the samples do not make for a great solo instrument experience. Synchron or Berlin Brass would be more appropriate if the sound suits him.


That is true, I guess I assumed the individual instrument requirement was more about voicing rather than actual solos. Synchron Brass has the solo instruments, but boy Dim Brass is so much more nimble haha. 

They are all my favorites (BB, JXL, SB, DB, and IB too!) and would not want to part with any of them.


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## holywilly (Apr 20, 2022)

I’m still a fan of VSL VI brass, especially solo brasses. They sound more focus, expressive and versatile in orchestral context, using either MIRx or your own reverbs yields satisfied result.


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 20, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> That is true, I guess I assumed the individual instrument requirement was more about voicing rather than actual solos.


Maybe you're right. Well, at least Jose has the complete picture now


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 20, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I’m still a fan of VSL VI brass, especially solo brasses. They sound more focus, expressive and versatile in orchestral context, using either MIRx or your own reverbs yields satisfied result.


Agreed! I use them to augment Dimension brass and that's a killer combo for me.


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Considering all (4) BBO Brass choices _ on sale now for ~ $225. Do these leave major gaps compared to typical Brass orchestral content ?





Zanshin said:


> That is true, I guess I assumed the individual instrument requirement was more about voicing rather than actual solos. Synchron Brass has the solo instruments, but boy Dim Brass is so much more nimble haha.
> 
> They are all my favorites (BB, JXL, SB, DB, and IB too!) and would not want to part with any of them.


It is about the div. Dim brass, I never ever considered it but it does sound good. Putting it on the list. 

Yes, most all the brass I have excels at ensemble unison. Not a bad thing but I'd like to split it up. Right now if I want to have a triad in the trumpet, I have to either play it on one patch or use the solo trumpet from 3 different libraries. Neither of which is idea for me.


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## Drundfunk (Apr 20, 2022)

José Herring said:


>



Damn. I love this so much! Also massive respect to the entire orchestra for surpressing the urge to check if the conductor is still alive or if they're being conducted by a living corpse... . What a performance! 

Good luck on your search!


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## KEM (Apr 20, 2022)

You already know what I’m gonna say…



JXL Brass!!


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## Fidelity (Apr 20, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I’m still a fan of VSL VI brass, especially solo brasses. They sound more focus, expressive and versatile in orchestral context, using either MIRx or your own reverbs yields satisfied result.


I only have the brass from SE Vol 1 (I have several other VSL libs but all are strings) and still prefer it to HOOPUS. Oh also...polyphonic legato in VI-pro and synchron, ya'll

As for MIRx, it helps, but afaik it doesn't work with synchron does it? Shame VSL doesn't offer an upgrade path to 24.


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## Windbag (Apr 20, 2022)

I'm sure this will surprise no one coming from me, but once you go modeled, you won't go back. It's a bit demanding as I pretty much just play in each part these days...but one pass with breath control seems less fiddly to me now than alternating patches, keyswitches, and drawing in CCS... and I never have articulation problems, unnatural phrasing, or writing bias toward what happens to be loaded up:

View attachment SMB_Mahler6b.mp3

(Only have time for one section today)


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## Fidelity (Apr 20, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I'm sure this will surprise no one coming from me, but once you go modeled, you won't go back. It's a bit demanding as I pretty much just play in each part these days...but one pass with breath control seems less fiddly to me now than alternating patches, keyswitches, and drawing in CCS... and I never have articulation problems, unnatural phrasing, or writing bias toward what happens to be loaded up:
> 
> View attachment SMB_Mahler6b.mp3
> 
> (Only have time for one section today)


Sounds good. Which library is that, and how can I CPR my wallet back to life after I buy it?


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## Windbag (Apr 20, 2022)

Samplemodeling Trombones (3 tenor, one bass), tuba from the French Horn & Tuba set, and Audomodelling's contrafa–uh..contrabassoon 

The bad news for your wallet is that the trumpets are at least as good and arguably more useful across other genres (and the worse news is that you're _really_ gonna want a TEControl BBC2 to go along with them)


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## CT (Apr 20, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I'm sure this will surprise no one coming from me, but once you go modeled, you won't go back. It's a bit demanding as I pretty much just play in each part these days...but one pass with breath control seems less fiddly to me now than alternating patches, keyswitches, and drawing in CCS... and I never have articulation problems, unnatural phrasing, or writing bias toward what happens to be loaded up:
> 
> View attachment SMB_Mahler6b.mp3
> 
> (Only have time for one section today)


This is cool. You should do the next few bars, I wonder how well this setup will really open up into a blended _fff_.


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## Jack Weaver (Apr 20, 2022)

Hi,

I have Synchron, JXL, Berlin, CSB, CineBrass, Spitfire, etc... 
But if I was thinking about your sound as you showed in your two demo tracks, I'd look first to VSL Synchronized Dimension Brass. 
It's not something I have currently, but someday I hope to rectify that situation. I only recently became aware of it and am floored by its sound. 

There has been the comment about the mic leakage regarding using it for solo instruments - that seems like a valid argument. However, I'm sure that you already have other libraries to go around that situation. 

HTH.

.


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> This is cool. You should do the next few bars, I wonder how well this setup will really open up into a blended _fff_.


Yes, in the soft and low it's gorgeous though. But would like to hear once it opens up into the upper ranges. That would seal it. 
I do have sample modeling The Trumpet. I'd have to reinstall it though. I kind of gave up on it for all the EQ, reverbs, ect I'd have to use. But for a while it was my secrete weapon.


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

KEM said:


> You already know what I’m gonna say…
> 
> 
> 
> JXL Brass!!


Great low brass sections. Great Horns. not so great trumpets. Kind of just okay on solo instruments. But, I do get a lot of use out of JXL brass.


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

Drundfunk said:


> Damn. I love this so much! Also massive respect to the entire orchestra for surpressing the urge to check if the conductor is still alive or if they're being conducted by a living corpse... . What a performance!
> 
> Good luck on your search!


Bro, that conductor might be on his last leg but he's killin' it! His cues are like spot on tempo, easy to read and he's getting what he needs out of the orchestra. 
And yea, Brunker is a way underrated composer imo. Everytime I hear his stuff the power and symplicity is remarkable.


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Have you heard the examples below since the v1.6 update?
> 
> The solo trombone is live, but the rest is Infinite.
> 
> ...



Dear Trash, I can see the appeal. Everybody has the right to find their own sound and work with what they enjoy working with. I wish I was more fond of these but I just can't get myself there. They are super flexible but the sound just gets in my way. 

I don't in any way want to diminish your affinity for this library though so I tread carefully with my opinion. I have at least a dozen or more libraries that people around these parts find unacceptable yet I use them everyday to good effect. It is important to find that thing that makes your music unique to you. 
If I had money to burn I'd give Infinite Brass a serious try though.


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## KEM (Apr 20, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Great low brass sections. Great Horns. not so great trumpets. Kind of just okay on solo instruments. But, I do get a lot of use out of JXL brass.



Yeah I agree, the trumpets are definitely the weak link, not bad by any means but they’re a bit wonky and not up to the same level of quality as the low brass


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 20, 2022)

Bruckner fucking rules, that's my contribution to this thread.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 20, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I'm looking for a brass library that allows me to think in the same way that I think about brass. If that makes sense. I have a lot of libraries but it is still incredibly hard for me to get individual parts to sound right. I can do it with trickery, reverb, placement, panning ect...but I'm tired of that shit.
> 
> I'm thinking that brass libraries with at least two individual patches say trp 1 and trp 2 recorded in the same space with the same mics, ect... Berlin I know is fully individual with VSL having just one and two solo patches, but even that would help me a lot.


So based on this, here are my thoughts on both - Berlin Brass vs. Synchron Brass:

Synchron Player is a far superior sample player to SINE, in terms of performance, functionality, and stability. It's like having a Ferrari vs. a Corolla IMO. At some point, OT has promised SINE will improve. Who knows when.
Berlin, as you said, has all individual players recorded and it has ensembles. VSL has 2 solo players for trumpets and horns, but only a single solo tenor trombone. VSL does have more ensembles recorded (though is missing an A4 horns patch).
VSL's soloists have pretty deep articulation recordings (deeper than BB). However, the ensembles are not recorded with the same consistent articulations - just a subset.
Both have a lot of flexibility within their mic positions - I would say VSL is better here, especially with the full library.
Timbre Adjust, which is part of Synchron Player, is VERY useful for Brass as it can help avoid the velocity x-fade boundary issues, which are more audible in brass libraries than in strings for example.
Like you, I really wanted BB because I wanted to write each part individually - and it certainly does create a different sound than an ensemble patch. The question is - is that the sound you want or the sound that really represents four individual players playing together (or is an A4 ensemble patch actually a better representation)? Also, if you want individual players, Modern Scoring Brass is another one to look at (I think criminally underrated).

Personally, I use VSL way more and a lot of that has to do with the players. Once SINE gets its act together (if ever), I will look forward to trying to use Berlin Brass more and see if it can displace Synchron.


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So based on this, here are my thoughts on both - Berlin Brass vs. Synchron Brass:
> 
> Synchron Player is a far superior sample player to SINE, in terms of performance, functionality, and stability. It's like having a Ferrari vs. a Corolla IMO. At some point, OT has promised SINE will improve. Who knows when.
> Berlin, as you said, has all individual players recorded and it has ensembles. VSL has 2 solo players for trumpets and horns, but only a single solo tenor trombone. VSL does have more ensembles recorded (though is missing an A4 horns patch).
> ...


I wouldn't necessarily use it as 4 players unison. I'd use the a4 patches for sure. What I do want is if I have 4 individual lines, then using 4 individual players one on each line. That's what I'm after. 
I can't find the post that mentioned MSB. But, it really has everything I'm missing. What has held me back is I'm not a huge fan of the sound of the official demos even though the writing is excellent. Maybe too ambitious for a sample library? Too many notes . 
But..... when I listen to Andrew K's walkthroughs they sound amazing. Lots of bang for the buck. Nice lower dynamics. I'll add them to my list and the price is more in my range that I may just take a chance.


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## Leonaar (Apr 20, 2022)

This is extremely dependent on the genre.
if you go for classical music (not film Hollywood melodramatic smoothies) I really would stay with Spitfire. Also is not clear to what you want, you mentioned soloists and then put 2 videos of doubled brass sections. 
My method: describe what you need - eliminate all that doesn’t serve - see what you like most
(valid for sound libraries and partners)


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## Trash Panda (Apr 20, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Dear Trash, I can see the appeal. Everybody has the right to find their own sound and work with what they enjoy working with. I wish I was more fond of these but I just can't get myself there. They are super flexible but the sound just gets in my way.
> 
> I don't in any way want to diminish your affinity for this library though so I tread carefully with my opinion. I have at least a dozen or more libraries that people around these parts find unacceptable yet I use them everyday to good effect. It is important to find that thing that makes your music unique to you.
> If I had money to burn I'd give Infinite Brass a serious try though.


I appreciate it, but you don’t have to tip toe. The Aaron Venture Army understands it’s not for everyone. One man’s ideal is another man’s clown car of sadness. Hope you find what you’re looking for!


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## doctoremmet (Apr 20, 2022)

Leonaar said:


> you mentioned soloists and then put 2 videos of doubled brass sections.


José wants to build his own ensembles


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## Zanshin (Apr 20, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> clown car of sadness


Shotgun!


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

Leonaar said:


> This is extremely dependent on the genre.
> if you go for classical music (not film Hollywood melodramatic smoothies) I really would stay with Spitfire. Also is not clear to what you want, you mentioned soloists and then put 2 videos of doubled brass sections.
> My method: describe what you need - eliminate all that doesn’t serve - see what you like most
> (valid for sound libraries and partners)


The point being that the ensembles are comprised of sections playing individual parts. So there's harmony within the sections. So then I can use orchestration techniques like interpolation-- for example, I have d minor chord I can put 1 trumpet on the "A" above middle C, 2 hrs on the f below a trumpet on the d below and two horns on the d and oct below that. Just doing something as simple as that which is pretty standard sends me into a frenzy when dealing with samples have to do multiple libraries, different room sizes, positions, ect.. I'm sick of it.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Apr 20, 2022)




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## Futchibon (Apr 20, 2022)

I usually use Berlin Brass and Additional instruments (both Kontakt), with some JXL ala carte low patches and the brass from the Arks (Sine), with Infinite Brass sprinkled over the top. OT just has more 'mojo' to me than VSL.


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## NoamL (Apr 20, 2022)

@José Herring if OT would let me sell you Berlin Brass... I'd be happy to 

*Cinematic Studio Brass* has become ol' reliable for me, mixed with some *CineBrass CORE* where possible (that library is more limited).

Both libs have great attitude & dynamics from the players. They have the "Hollywood Sound."

I don't love _any_ of the mainland European brass libraries including Berlin, JXLB, and Synchron Brass. Teldex and Synchron sound just fine, it's something to do with the instrument makes & the musicianship.

#1 tip for Cinematic Studio Brass is - no close mics on the heavy brass! I also use a carefully programmed instance of Cinematic Rooms Pro on the Cinematic Studio submix. (the Abbey Road 1 library is a great reality check for how brass should sound!!).

#2 tip is - I have 11 tracks ready for 11 brass performances. In my experience the cheapo accordion effect comes from when I try to use 1 modwheel performance across the horn choir or trumpet choir. (Particularly amongst the trumpets, I hear on real life recordings over and over, that they DO NOT play equal dynamics. The principal chair really leads.)

So in theory, Berlin should shine because it gives you a different set of samples for each of the 11 musicians. But in practice I don't think it really is a quantum leap beyond 4 carefully _and separately_ programmed instances of the same solo horn. And it takes me 4x the processing power and unfortunately the dynamics are inconsistent across the 11 players.

(I think this one track _per instrument _approach is half the secret of the better Infinite Brass / Sample Modeling demos too, as the libraries practically force that approach.)


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## Windbag (Apr 20, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> ...You should do the next few bars, I wonder how well this setup will really open up into a blended _fff_.






José Herring said:


> ... But would like to hear once it opens up into the upper ranges. That would seal it.
> I do have sample modeling The Trumpet. I'd have to reinstall it though. I kind of gave up on it for all the EQ, reverbs, ect I'd have to use. But for a while it was my secrete weapon.


Alrighty I had to dig up the score...here's a sketch of the next few crescendo bars with a less-than-perfect space match to that hall...but hopefully a better idea of dynamic range (that last sfortzando about covers it):

View attachment SMB_Mahler6_p2cth.mp3


...also it's a little more obvious in the other example but I forgot to mention another private satisfaction I get playing these modeled parts in; justified major thirds. Particularly goosebump inducing with [french] horns


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## Saxer (Apr 20, 2022)

Might be interesting: Brass comparison made by Daniel Beijbom


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## CT (Apr 20, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Alrighty I had to dig up the score...here's a sketch of the next few crescendo bars with a less-than-perfect space match to that hall...but hopefully a better idea of dynamic range (that last sfortzando about covers it):
> 
> View attachment SMB_Mahler6_p2cth.mp3
> 
> ...


Glad you took the time to do it! This is similar to what I was getting with the WIVI brass some time ago. Range is absolutely there, and I do love the ability to have more natural intonation between parts, but something about the way the actual pressure of the sound converges in the air and hits the mics or your ears is just so tough to duplicate in this way.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 20, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Alrighty I had to dig up the score...here's a sketch of the next few crescendo bars with a less-than-perfect space match to that hall...but hopefully a better idea of dynamic range (that last sfortzando about covers it):
> 
> View attachment SMB_Mahler6_p2cth.mp3
> 
> ...


Might’ve missed it but which library are you using?


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## José Herring (Apr 20, 2022)

Windbag said:


> Alrighty I had to dig up the score...here's a sketch of the next few crescendo bars with a less-than-perfect space match to that hall...but hopefully a better idea of dynamic range (that last sfortzando about covers it):
> 
> View attachment SMB_Mahler6_p2cth.mp3
> 
> ...


I use to use SM The Trumpet to breathe life into ensemble patches. It still would be good for that use. Thanks for reminding me. I've contacted SM to make arrangements to recover my license and will probably look into getting the rest soon. 
This kind of though has me thinking about Infinite Brass again after saying nay. Wondering if Infinite brass can be used with BC as well.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 20, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Like you, I really wanted BB because I wanted to write each part individually - and it certainly does create a different sound than an ensemble patch. The question is - is that the sound you want or the sound that really represents four individual players playing together (or is an A4 ensemble patch actually a better representation)?


IMHO, _yes_, the A4 could in theory sound better than the 4 pieces playing together for unison parts - but only if they could get the bloody dynamics right!!

That's one of my biggest peeves with BB, the fact that most of the dynamics stop at mf or f, and the Horns A4 patch is beautiful but it doesn't even reach a proper f... what a wasted opportunity!

They apparently extended some dynamics in BB but I refuse to move over to SINE to use them.

But that's only in theory anyway - in practice, I don't think it matters that much compared to knowing how to program 4 hns. for a unison part (assuming your dynamics are up to snuff)

My current solution is to augment big 4 horn phrases and crescendi with ARK 1 Rotdorn Horns (a3 patch) via CAPSULE crossfade which I control with a dedicated CC to get the timing right.

Cheers


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 20, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> IMHO, _yes_, the A4 could in theory sound better than the 4 pieces playing together for unison parts - but only if they could get the bloody dynamics right!!
> 
> That's one of my biggest peeves with BB, the fact that most of the dynamics stop at mf or f, and the Horns A4 patch is beautiful but it doesn't even reach a proper f... what a wasted opportunity!
> 
> ...


They did record the FF layer for SINE. It’s in there and nice to have.


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## TonalDynamics (Apr 20, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> They did record the FF layer for SINE. It’s in there and nice to have.


Only ff though, eh?

I mean it's a nice gesture but if they were going to take the time to bring musicians BACK into the studio why not just have them hit a nice fortississimo??

Maybe then noone would need to buy ARK 1 or JXL? 

But man I'll say this for anyone reading, the dynamics might not be quite right in BB but the legato transitions and timing consistency across all the articulations is second to none in my experience, including most notably CSB, which I've just experimented with a bit (great library on its own right, but I use it more for augmentation and BB as my core brass lib.)


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 20, 2022)

TonalDynamics said:


> Only ff though, eh?
> 
> I mean it's a nice gesture but if they were going to take the time to bring musicians BACK into the studio why not just have them hit a nice fortississimo??
> 
> ...


Sorry it is FFF.


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 20, 2022)

Land of Missing Parts said:


>


4/20 bras


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## PaulieDC (Apr 20, 2022)

Here's a question that may sound like I'm trying to be snarky, but I'm really not: no one ever really mentions Spitfire Symphonic Brass. I don't have it but I'm a BB fan. Is SSB just not a contender? I ask because I have SSS, SCS and SSW so naturally I get the Compete Your Collection thing flung at me during sales. Does SSB scratch anyone's itch?


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## doctoremmet (Apr 20, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Wondering if Infinite brass can be used with BC as well.


It definitely can


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## PaulieDC (Apr 20, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I'm sure this will surprise no one coming from me, but once you go modeled, you won't go back. It's a bit demanding as I pretty much just play in each part these days...but one pass with breath control seems less fiddly to me now than alternating patches, keyswitches, and drawing in CCS... and I never have articulation problems, unnatural phrasing, or writing bias toward what happens to be loaded up:
> 
> View attachment SMB_Mahler6b.mp3
> 
> (Only have time for one section today)


What breath controller do you use? (if I read this right)


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 20, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Here's a question that may sound like I'm trying to be snarky, but I'm really not: no one ever really mentions Spitfire Symphonic Brass. I don't have it but I'm a BB fan. Is SSB just not a contender? I ask because I have SSS, SCS and SSW so naturally I get the Compete Your Collection thing flung at me during sales. Does SSB scratch anyone's itch?


Like all libraries, SSB has its particular uses. Nice set of articulations though I found it more suited to lyrical / choral work than bombastic stuff. Lovely tone that you get from AIR.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 21, 2022)

@José Herring I have a suggestion: if you can make available a MIDI file of an 8 or 16 bar mini composition (or something in that ballpark) that uses standard fare brass (so just trumpets, horns, bones, tuba), I think you'll invite more high-quality answers.

Which isn't to say the current answers are bad, it's just that there are a lot of _opinions_ going around and without audio to accompany those opinions it's near impossible to judge their merit. I don't know about you, but I don't have the power of imagination to know how a particular solution might sound when it's just described to me with words.

Audio examples would probably be much more helpful, not just for yourself but for everyone following this thread. If you provide a MIDI file (and a reference if you're feeling fancy), you lower the barrier to entrance for people to share the results they can get with their solutions.

Again, I don't mean this to shit on answers provided so far, it's just that without audio examples it's impossible to tell if JoeSchmoe123's solution is the next best thing since sliced bread or sounds more like an analog synth.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

Project Anvil said:


> @José Herring I have a suggestion: if you can make available a MIDI file of an 8 or 16 bar mini composition (or something in that ballpark) that uses standard fare brass (so just trumpets, horns, bones, tuba), I think you'll invite more high-quality answers.
> 
> Which isn't to say the current answers are bad, it's just that there are a lot of _opinions_ going around and without audio to accompany those opinions it's near impossible to judge their merit. I don't know about you, but I don't have the power of imagination to know how a particular solution might sound when it's just described to me with words.
> 
> ...


I've attached the midi file. If anybody else is game I'd like to compare some of the other libraries mentioned. It doesn't have to be perfect. I know what I'm looking for and that's to do better than what I can do, tone wise, connectivity wise and also getting each line to sit in balance.

Oh, on the midi, some of the channels have keyswitch data. All my keyswitches are around C0 so I hope that doesn't through you. I'm in the middle of redoing all my template so I haven't gotten around to a more sophisticated handling of Keyswitching fully yet.


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I've attached the midi file. If anybody else is game I'd like to compare some of the other libraries mentioned. It doesn't have to be perfect. I know what I'm looking for and that's to do better than what I can do, tone wise, connectivity wise and also getting each line to sit in balance.
> 
> Oh, on the midi, some of the channels have keyswitch data. All my keyswitches are around C0 so I hope that doesn't through you. I'm in the middle of redoing all my template so I haven't gotten around to a more sophisticated handling of Keyswitching fully yet.
> View attachment 75036


which libraries did you blend here? That way we don’t overlap


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## Composer 2021 (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I've listened a lot. It's just not my type of sound. I want it to be. Looks to be very flexible, but I just can't get use to the tone quality.


100 percent agree. The tone of Infinite Brass just doesn't sell me.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

Baronvonheadless said:


> which libraries did you blend here? That way we don’t overlap


hmmm....I don't have Berlin, VSL Synchron, MSB and Cinematic Studio Brass.

I used> HOOPUS Brass, CineBrass, Adventure Brass, Caspian, Century Brass and BBCSO Core (Tuba)
edit: And JXL Tbone


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 21, 2022)

Updated version here.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> This is a quicky with VSL Dimension Brass + VI bass trombone. The trumpets don't behave themselves properly, but I don't have the time to fix that. VelFX on CC1 is used for dynamics as provided by José.
> 
> My template is a lot dryer than this, but I tried to get close to what your example sounds like with the time I have. No articulation switching, everything is sustains non-vib. You get the idea from this I think.
> 
> ...


I like the tone of the brass. Lots of parts missing. I hope it wasn't my midi files. I'll check that.


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I like the tone of the brass. Lots of parts missing. I hope it wasn't my midi files. I'll check that.


I didn't quite understand your midi file, lot of double parts it seems. Could be just me not paying enough attention.


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## aileero (Apr 21, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Here's a question that may sound like I'm trying to be snarky, but I'm really not: no one ever really mentions Spitfire Symphonic Brass. I don't have it but I'm a BB fan. Is SSB just not a contender? I ask because I have SSS, SCS and SSW so naturally I get the Compete Your Collection thing flung at me during sales. Does SSB scratch anyone's itch?


I have used Spitfire Symphonic Brass before and even though it has a lot of potential in sound, it seriously lacks in both dynamics and solo brass legato. I find that the brass doesn't get loud enough and the soft dynamics don't have the tone I am looking for. Maybe I'm just spoiled by Cinematic Studio Brass. 
If you have the other Spitfire Symphonic libraries then I would say go for it, if I had all of them I would definitely use them as their tone overall sounds good. My dream template would be having both Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra and the Cinematic Studio Series in one project file, and blend the two libraries together.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I didn't quite understand your midi file, lot of double parts it seems. Could be just me not paying enough attention.


it's the trickery that I was talking about earlier in the thread. Constantly having to swith back and forth between libraries, solo patches, ensemble patches, and sometimes both. Basically there are 3 solo trumpets, 3 a2 trumpets, 3 solo trombones, 1 bass trb, tuba and french horn section. This is basically my problem but in doing this I don't think any one library can solve it but having a bunch of solo instruments might help.
Looking hard at MSB. Lots of instruments. Ensembles aren't great at unison but I'd be looking at using it on distinct lines.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 21, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> One man’s ideal is another man’s clown car of sadness.


Ok we can shut down the forum now.


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> it's the trickery that I was talking about earlier in the thread. Constantly having to swith back and forth between libraries, solo patches, ensemble patches, and sometimes both. Basically there are 3 solo trumpets, 3 a2 trumpets, 3 solo trombones, 1 bass trb, tuba and french horn section.


Ah, that explains a lot! Let me revise my entry.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Ah, that explains a lot! Let me revise my entry.


I appreciate your efforts. It doesn't have to be perfect so please don't spend too much time. Lots of people on VI get their undies all in a bunch over translating the same midi to a different library. I don't. I'm experienced enough to tell when it's CC data that doesn't translate well vs. the tone, connection and expressiveness of a library. If the cc bumps a bit I don't really care. I'm not judging the mockup just the patches.

So far, Dimension Brass is a lot better than what I remember it being when it was released.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 21, 2022)

As a reminder, lot of comparisons in this thread too https://vi-control.net/community/th...-programming-exercise-olympic-fanfare.118064/

I might give your MIDI a go with Berlin, Synchron, and MSB later if I can find some time.


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 21, 2022)

New version added to my previous post.

@José Herring : your MIDI file has some weird pitch data in Tp 1,2 a2 [HB] which makes that sound pretty bad.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> As a reminder, lot of comparisons in this thread too https://vi-control.net/community/th...-programming-exercise-olympic-fanfare.118064/
> 
> I might give your MIDI a go with Berlin, Synchron, and MSB later if I can find some time.


Please do. 
And, yes I rmember, I'm looking here though for a very specific thing as apart from that fanfare which used almost exclusively the famous JW full section unison. I'm kind of looking for a library now that can handle more of the JW Harry Potter divisi brass.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> New version added to my previous post.
> 
> @José Herring : your MIDI file has some weird pitch data in Tp 1,2 a2 [HB] which makes that sound pretty bad.


Oh, delete it. Yes, the pitch data on that patch is because HOOPUS can make really subtle changes to pitch. Most libraries will make drastic changes. I'll soon replace it the midi file with a newer one w/o pitch bend data.


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## Zanshin (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> ... I'm kind of looking for a library now that can handle more of the JW Harry Potter divisi brass.


A JW brass library yes please


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

I've replaced the midi file and tried to remove the pitch data. I know that won't translate well so I hope I got it all if not, then please just deleted pitch bend. 






It's that Time of Year......Brass libraries


Only ff though, eh? I mean it's a nice gesture but if they were going to take the time to bring musicians BACK into the studio why not just have them hit a nice fortississimo?? Maybe then noone would need to buy ARK 1 or JXL? :2thumbs: But man I'll say this for anyone reading, the dynamics...



vi-control.net


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 21, 2022)

What do you think of this?
It's mostly BBC PRO brass, with some double articulations chosen to beef it up, and mostly a mix of tree, spill and balcony mics. A little close sometimes.
With the exception of
JXL tuba, one trumpet ensemble is cinebrass core, and other is cinebrass sonore. The solo trumpets are BBCSO Pro and some ark 4 muted.
(I don't really have any solo horns except for that of BBCSO, maybe like two solo horns from jxl) 

But I thought this would be a slight variation combination of some of what u have and some of what you don't. Mic signals help. Sorry no berlin or msb here.


View attachment Mahler.mp3


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 21, 2022)

Baronvonheadless said:


> What do you think of this?
> It's mostly BBC PRO brass, with some double articulations chosen to beef it up, and mostly a mix of tree, spill and balcony mics. A little close sometimes.
> With the exception of
> JXL tuba, one trumpet ensemble is cinebrass core, and other is cinebrass sonore. The solo trumpets are BBCSO Pro and some ark 4 muted.
> ...


That does not sound good to me…

I think it’s more the programming though than the libraries. The attacks are really strange on many notes.


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## Baronvonheadless (Apr 21, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That does not sound good to me…
> 
> I think it’s more the programming though than the libraries. The attacks are really strange on many notes.


Yeah I'm not sure why, I didn't touch his midi. Should just be normal note starts.
I don't have time to finesse it tho.
However, I like the tone overall.

I don't like the tone of VSL example around 45 seconds when the trumpets come in, they sound like kazoos to me.


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## Steve Hicks (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Please do.
> And, yes I rmember, I'm looking here though for a very specific thing as apart from that fanfare which used almost exclusively the famous JW full section unison. I'm kind of looking for a library now that can handle more of the JW Harry Potter divisi brass.


The closest I've got (yet...) to a JW sound is a combo of Synchron and Cinebrass
I've posted this before, so feel free to ignore!
View attachment Nimbus.mp3


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

Steve Hicks said:


> The closest I've got (yet...) to a JW sound is a combo of Synchron and Cinebrass
> I've posted this before, so feel free to ignore!
> View attachment Nimbus.mp3


Yep. That's the sound. I'm curious what did you use mostly on the trumpets how much of that was Syncrhon vs. Cinebrass. What's on the top lines?


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## Steve Hicks (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Yep. That's the sound. I'm curious what did you use mostly on the trumpets how much of that was Syncrhon vs. Cinebrass. What's on the top lines?


Solo hrn CB
Other horn chords/lines - Synchron 
Tutti Hrn - CB (a6)
Trumpet chords/lines - Synchron 
Trump tutti - CB
Bone chords/lines - Synchron 
Bone Tutti - CB
B Bone - Synchron 
Tuba - CB (although I could have used Synchron!) 

Hope that helps!


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## Steve Hicks (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Yep. That's the sound. I'm curious what did you use mostly on the trumpets how much of that was Syncrhon vs. Cinebrass. What's on the top lines?


The triaddy trumpet stuff is particularly good on Synchron - as close as I've got to the LSO (in all but name), AR, JW sound


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## ZeeCount (Apr 21, 2022)

Here's Modern Scoring Brass. All internal processing turned off (including sizzle) and dynamics mapped to volume. Mix is -2db on Tree, 0db on Room and -9db on Close. Berlin Pecussion Timpani and Berlin Strings Pizz and the CineSamples Room tone. Fabfilter Pro C2 and Pro L2 on master bus and using Relab LX480 Random Hall for tail


View attachment Mahler Brass Choral msb.mp3


EDIT: Btw great taste in Music! Always loved the Mahler 2.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

ZeeCount said:


> Here's Modern Scoring Brass. All internal processing turned off (including sizzle) and dynamics mapped to volume. Mix is -2db on Tree, 0db on Room and -9db on Close. Berlin Pecussion Timpani and Berlin Strings Pizz and the CineSamples Room tone. Fabfilter Pro C2 and Pro L2 on master bus and using Relab LX480 Random Hall for tail
> 
> 
> View attachment Mahler Brass Choral msb.mp3
> ...


Okay, waaay better than this library gets credit for. Why is this thing not talked about more? Maybe just a tad below the quality of synchron stage but the instruments themselves are fantastic and the Lexicon reverb makes up for a lot of the room.


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## CT (Apr 21, 2022)

BBCSO does _not_ have to sound like that in this passage. I tried it last year during a similar conversation. It can do better.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 21, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Okay, waaay better than this library gets credit for. Why is this thing not talked about more? Maybe just a tad below the quality of synchron stage but the instruments themselves are fantastic and the Lexicon reverb makes up for a lot of the room.


I asked the same question (before buying it anyway). I think lack of a lot of demos and there was like one or two people crapping on it when it first came out that seems to have turned people off. Unfairly I believe. Audiobro is also a developer that most definitely listens to customers in terms of improvements (as demonstrated with MSS).


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

Baronvonheadless said:


> What do you think of this?
> It's mostly BBC PRO brass, with some double articulations chosen to beef it up, and mostly a mix of tree, spill and balcony mics. A little close sometimes.
> With the exception of
> JXL tuba, one trumpet ensemble is cinebrass core, and other is cinebrass sonore. The solo trumpets are BBCSO Pro and some ark 4 muted.
> ...


Really beefy sound. BBCSO to me is sonically is one of the better libraries. I also secretly really like the trumpets. Thx.


----------



## ZeeCount (Apr 21, 2022)

Here's Berlin Brass SINE with Berlin Strings and Berlin Timpani and CineSamples Room tone. Mix is Tree 0db, Surround -5db. Pro C2 and Pro L2 on master, no reverb added. Horns are the a4 patch, rest are individual instruments.


View attachment Mahler Brass Choral BB.mp3


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## ZeeCount (Apr 21, 2022)

One more: Infinite Brass, Berlin Strings, Berlin Timpani, and CineSamples Room tone. All Brass set to mic mix 5, Mozateum. Fabfilter Pro C2 and Pro L2 on the master bus, no external reverb.






Some minor tweaking done to the midi to drop note velocities and reduce CC1 so they don't hit the FF layers too quickly. Much more editing could be done to fine tune the performance.


View attachment Mahler Brass Choral IB.mp3


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

ZeeCount said:


> Here's Berlin Brass SINE with Berlin Strings and Berlin Timpani and CineSamples Room tone. Mix is Tree 0db, Surround -5db. Pro C2 and Pro L2 on master, no reverb added. Horns are the a4 patch, rest are individual instruments.
> 
> 
> View attachment Mahler Brass Choral BB.mp3


This is almost exactly the tone I'm looking for. Would love to hear it without the limiters.


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## JDK88 (Apr 21, 2022)

I'm in the mood for a small brass ensemble recorded with vintage equipment.


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## CT (Apr 21, 2022)

ZeeCount said:


> Here's Berlin Brass SINE with Berlin Strings and Berlin Timpani and CineSamples Room tone. Mix is Tree 0db, Surround -5db. Pro C2 and Pro L2 on master, no reverb added. Horns are the a4 patch, rest are individual instruments.
> 
> 
> View attachment Mahler Brass Choral BB.mp3


Is that as hushed as BB can get? That's... quite harsh if so.


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## ZeeCount (Apr 21, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Is that as hushed as BB can get? That's... quite harsh if so.


Nope. It goes quieter. I didn't edit the dynamics at all.


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## sound team apk (Apr 21, 2022)

ZeeCount said:


> Nope. It goes quieter. I didn't edit the dynamics at all.


Yes, this is not at all what it sounded like when I pasted Jose's midi into BB Kontakt, where the same dynamics mostly hit lower dynamic layers.


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## ZeeCount (Apr 21, 2022)

sound team apk said:


> Yes, this is not at all what it sounded like when I pasted Jose's midi into BB Kontakt, where the same dynamics mostly hit lower dynamic layers.


That's because the SINE version has the additional FF layers on top. It means that it will go to the MF/F layers more quickly than the kontakt one does.


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## sound team apk (Apr 21, 2022)

ZeeCount said:


> That's because the SINE version has the additional FF layers on top. It means that it will go to the MF/F layers more quickly than the kontakt one does.


Yes, exactly. Thanks for clarifying for me. There's so much talk about the differences between the Sine and Kontakt versions that I didn't want to go into that again, but rereading my post I definitely didn't explain. 

(I guess I decided to mention the Kontakt version because I was impressed by how decent it sounded when I hadn't changed the MIDI at all.)


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## sound team apk (Apr 21, 2022)

Since I claimed that I pasted some MIDI into Berlin Brass and thought it worked better than I expected, here it is. Since this version is from Kontakt, it focuses a bit more on the lower dynamics than @ZeeCount's rendering and lacks the full power of the top layers for the climax (which are of course there in the Sine version):

View attachment Mahler - 2nd Symphony Brass Chorale (BB).mp3


I only did the brass section. I think Jose's MIDI is more or less exactly as provided, except I changed the velocity and dynamics of one bass trombone note near the beginning so that it didn't hit the accented attack on the legato patch. Hopefully I merged the trumpet parts mostly correctly.

4 solo trumpets (trumpets 1-3 plus another trumpet 1 transposed), 3 solo trombones (1-2 plus another 1 transposed), the bass trombone, and the tuba. The horns are just the a4 bells up immediate sustain patch. All tree mics. No processing at all.


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## José Herring (Apr 21, 2022)

sound team apk said:


> Since I claimed that I pasted some MIDI into Berlin Brass and thought it worked better than I expected, here it is. Since this version is from Kontakt, it focuses a bit more on the lower dynamics than @ZeeCount's rendering and lacks the full power of the top layers for the climax (which are of course there in the Sine version):
> 
> View attachment Mahler - 2nd Symphony Brass Chorale (BB).mp3
> 
> ...


Damn that's good. It goes loud enough. I have plenty of FFF brass.


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## Ricgus3 (Apr 21, 2022)

Windbag said:


> I'm sure this will surprise no one coming from me, but once you go modeled, you won't go back. It's a bit demanding as I pretty much just play in each part these days...but one pass with breath control seems less fiddly to me now than alternating patches, keyswitches, and drawing in CCS... and I never have articulation problems, unnatural phrasing, or writing bias toward what happens to be loaded up:
> 
> View attachment SMB_Mahler6b.mp3
> 
> (Only have time for one section today)


What brass is this? What breath controller do you use?


----------



## CT (Apr 21, 2022)

sound team apk said:


> Since I claimed that I pasted some MIDI into Berlin Brass and thought it worked better than I expected, here it is. Since this version is from Kontakt, it focuses a bit more on the lower dynamics than @ZeeCount's rendering and lacks the full power of the top layers for the climax (which are of course there in the Sine version):
> 
> View attachment Mahler - 2nd Symphony Brass Chorale (BB).mp3
> 
> ...


This still doesn't have quite the "hushed" quality I feel like the start of the passage needs, interesting. I think in part it is the result of something I've heard others complain about, which is that with individual players being sampled, you can quickly run into some real performance inconsistencies without very tight control of the sessions. 

The apparent discrepancies in dynamic performance between the separate players is something that's put me off of Berlin Brass, and the extent to which you can hear way too much of certain lines here seems to bear that concern out. Compared to the kind of blend and intonation achieved in that SM brass example, it's just in a way less effective league.


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## Windbag (Apr 22, 2022)

Ricgus3 said:


> What brass is this? What breath controller do you use?


Samplemodeling (and SWAM double reeds' contrabassoon - an orchestration move I have filed away for future use), played via TEControl BBC2


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 22, 2022)

I've done a revision of my VSL Dimension brass version where I corrected some timing and dynamics issues my first attempt had. I've also added trumpet desks 1+2 and 3+4 for the parts that in José's original had them. Also forgone the processing. It's more balanced now.

View attachment Mahler Dim Brass v3.mp3


You're listening to:

4x trumpets (4x solo, desks 1+2 and 3+4 and 4 players ensemble)
4x horns
4x trombones
1x bass trombone (VI brass)
1x bass tuba (VI brass)
1x timpani (VI percussion)

MIRPro Synchron Stage (wide)


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## Zanshin (Apr 22, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I've done a revision of my VSL Dimension brass version where I corrected some timing and dynamics issues my first attempt had. I've also added trumpet desks 1+2 and 3+4 for the parts that in José's original had them. Also forgone the processing. It's more balanced now.


I like this new version. I had a play with the midi last night, but couldn't do the bass trombone and tuba properly with just DB because of the bleed. I woke up this morning and VI Brass II is in my account now, I don't know how that happened!!

I like the BB renditions and MSB rendition too.


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 22, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I woke up this morning and VI Brass II is in my account now, I don't know how that happened!!


Uhu 

Yeah, Dim brass low brass isn't too useful in this case.


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## sound team apk (Apr 22, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> This still doesn't have quite the "hushed" quality I feel like the start of the passage needs, interesting. I think in part it is the result of something I've heard others complain about, which is that with individual players being sampled, you can quickly run into some real performance inconsistencies without very tight control of the sessions.


Sure. The library does go softer than this. Berlin Brass has a lot of soft attacks, portatos, and swells that I would definitely have used had I been trying to compete with @Windbag's version.



Michaelt said:


> The apparent discrepancies in dynamic performance between the separate players is something that's put me off of Berlin Brass, and the extent to which you can hear way too much of certain lines here seems to bear that concern out.


No, I would say you shouldn't draw such a conclusion from this example. As I said above, all I did was copy Jose's MIDI to provide a Berlin Brass example, and it showed enough of the potential of the library that I decided to upload it. 

Each of Jose's original lines used a totally different library, with its own dynamic curve. Half of each solo trumpet line actually came from two different lines / libraries in Jose's. Even if the dynamic curves on the BB soloists were exactly the same, I would still have had to reprogram everything for BB to get each line in its right place.

I think OT intended the different dynamic performances to be a feature. Clearly nobody sees it that way, and I don't either. But if I really want to get lines to sound (close to) the way I want, I have to carefully program each separately anyway. At that point, for my own workflow the differences in the curves aren't much more of an annoyance than any number of other issues in every sample library I try to use.

Of course I would prefer more consistent dynamic curves and performances for the core of my template. This is one of the reasons I find myself gravitating towards modeled instruments and VSL as time goes on.



Michaelt said:


> Compared to the kind of blend and intonation achieved in that SM brass example, it's just in a way less effective league.


My point was not to claim Berlin Brass is better than SM Brass. It's not. I happen to agree with @Windbag that there's no going back 

I do prefer Berlin Brass to the many other traditional libraries I've used consistently for the last few years. I typically start with traditional libraries to avoid obsessing over modeled instruments as much as I can. Berlin Brass is the library that I replace with modeled instruments the least. CSB and Cinebrass, in contrast, rarely survive to the end of a project (Cinebrass literally never has, sadly). They're clearly excellent libraries for others, but the intonation usually isn't what I want for my own music. (I recently bought Dimension Brass -- thanks to "helpful" members like @Zanshin  -- but haven't had a chance to use it in a project yet.)


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 22, 2022)

For those that have both, which do you prefer - SM Brass or Infinite Brass?


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## CT (Apr 22, 2022)

sound team apk said:


> No, I would say you shouldn't draw such a conclusion from this example.


Yeah, but like I said it's more that it seems to be a recurring thing some users describe, or which is evident from demos, not just this one. Of course one can try to perform each line in a way that best blends with others, but I worry that with large enough differences there will be limits to how well that can be done, especially at the extremes of dynamics.


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## sound team apk (Apr 22, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Yeah, but like I said it's more that it seems to be a recurring thing some users describe, or which is evident from demos, not just this one. Of course one can try to perform each line in a way that best blends with others, but I worry that with large enough differences there will be limits to how well that can be done, especially at the extremes of dynamics.


I agree with NoamL that the different players aren't nearly as big a difference-maker in creating a cohesive ensemble sound as OT advertises, and you're right that it could actually create additional challenges. Typically when I know I'll care about intonation and voicing that specifically, I just jump to modeled instruments (not that I'm so amazing with those...), so I can't even anecdotally claim I haven't experienced the limitation in practice.

But there's nothing stopping you from using only one of the 3 or 4 performers like you would any other library that only offers a single performer for each solo instrument. Given that I like the sound and the relatively-solid articulation set (the most important factor for sure), it's a strict positive for me personally to have several variations of the same instruments sampled in the same space, with the same microphones, and with all the same articulations. This makes it my kind of library, but it's definitely not everyone's kind of library, especially given the price. And the Sine player.


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## Rob (Apr 22, 2022)

here's a try with Hein's orchestral brass, with some help in the tbone and tuba departments from Cinebrass
View attachment Mahler-BrassChorale.mp3


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## Project Anvil (Apr 22, 2022)

@José Herring Only had a little time to work on this so it's just a few bars. Second half needs some more love still.



Sample Modeling + Hollywood Brass for tenor bones. CSB Bass Bone and CSB Tuba for the low end.


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

Project Anvil said:


> @José Herring Only had a little time to work on this so it's just a few bars. Second half needs some more love still.
> 
> 
> 
> Sample Modeling + Hollywood Brass for tenor bones. CSB Bass Bone and CSB Tuba for the low end.



The Tbones are perfect. Good low end as well.


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 22, 2022)

Rob said:


> here's a try with Hein's orchestral brass, with some help in the tbone and tuba departments from Cinebrass
> View attachment Mahler-BrassChorale.mp3


I like the pace of your piece. It does seem like you have some kind of phasing in the trumpets at the end.


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## Rob (Apr 22, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> I like the pace of your piece. It does seem like you have some kind of phasing in the trumpets at the end.


thanks Marcus, I always have some phasing when playing two or more solo trumpets in unison, even though they are different instruments... I play each part in realtime, no quantization, so I don't really know what to do. Is it possible that real trumpets get a bit phasy too, when playing unisons?


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## Marcus Millfield (Apr 22, 2022)

Rob said:


> thanks Marcus, I always have some phasing when playing two or more solo trumpets in unison, even though they are different instruments... I play each part in realtime, no quantization, so I don't really know what to do. Is it possible that real trumpets get a bit phasy too, when playing unisons?


Nasty yes, especially if one is off pitch or dynamics aren't balanced, but no phasing. Phasing is really a VI thing.


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## Rob (Apr 22, 2022)

must be the lack of air between the instruments in the digital world...


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## Casiquire (Apr 22, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Damn that's good. It goes loud enough. I have plenty of FFF brass.


Not only that, Berlin Brass (Kontakt) is underrated in its loud dynamics in the first place. The sustains might cap out around forte, but that's just the sustains. The marcatos and shorts have always hit a satisfying FF for me, and you can use those with legato anyway. I was surprised how well it handled loud playing, after all I had read here


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

Thank you all for your input. It comes down to sound quality vs. playability which is our eternal battle. 

I will be getting soon MSB, then shortly there after Synchron. Before I try and get Synchron though I'm going to buy the BB Trumpets a la carte and see if I can get them to work. Tp 1 and 2 to start if I can get them to work I'll finish the collection.

SM will be great for solo detailed work. Chris Hein another great choice for this. So I'll be upgrading my SM trumpet for sure as well as getting the rest. Chris Hein would be a luxury purchase after that not sure I'll do it but it definitely has that detail.

I'll use the rest of my brass then for the ensemble work which all my brass libraries at the moment seem to excel at.

This should keep me busy until next year


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## dts_marin (Apr 22, 2022)

I like MSB but it has a few issues. VEP doesn't like it and it freezes when closing projects. Takes forever to unload when it doesn't freeze that is. Also the legato seems outdated nowadays compared to their newer releases (MSS and LASS3). Hopefully an update will fix those things.

The samples are really well edited. I've only found a single tuba note where the performance is bad. But everything else really clean and well made.

Tone-wise I wish they would record again the tenor trombones. They are fine when used in tutti because of their thin tone but exposed they are wimpy at best. In certain scenarios I prefer using the Bass Trombones and Cimbassi but even those don't help in some cases.

I wish they'd also release an expansion with more prerecorded mordents, fast slurred figures, trills and such. I don't care a lot about aleatoric fx because those are already well covered by other libraries. But mordents are super hard to fake and are really missing from sampled brass.

But I don't think we'll ever see additional recordings on an AudioBro product.

Sadly I don't have much time right now to make a demo that I feel does justice to the library.


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

dts_marin said:


> I like MSB but it has a few issues. VEP doesn't like it and it freezes when closing projects. Takes forever to unload when it doesn't freeze that is. Also the legato seems outdated nowadays compared to their newer releases (MSS and LASS3). Hopefully an update will fix those things.
> 
> The samples are really well edited. I've only found a single tuba note where the performance is bad. But everything else really clean and well made.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Good thing I ditched VEPro. 
I don't plan on using the library in Tutti. I have so many Tutti libraries. What impressed me the most is the sheer volume of cimbassi, euphoniums, ect...stuff that I really don't have much of.


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## Zanshin (Apr 22, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I'm going to buy the BB Trumpets a la carte and see if I can get them to work. Tp 1 and 2 to start if I can get them to work I'll finish the collection.


The BB Trumpets a la carte are a slippery slope! That's where I started too 

When you get MSB let us know how you get on, I'd love to know more about your experience with it. It doesn't get a lot of talk around here and I've been very curious.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 22, 2022)

José Herring said:


> The Tbones are perfect. Good low end as well.


Thanks, I think I can do better but like I said, this was fairly quickly done.

So now that you've heard the result, here's the breakdown, some of the things might surprise you:


Complete disregard for solo trombones vs sections. Don't care about the notation, don't care if there's technically a gazillion instruments playing, if it sounds right, it's right. In my example, there are multiple 2 and 3 trombones patches playing on top of SM Trombones. 
Traditional libs for room, modelling libs for attack/release, note duration & overall expression. Can't stress this enough because what traditional libs are good at is room & tone while modelling libs are good at attack/release and expression. Catering to strength of both gives you the best of both worlds.
Almost no EQ on SM. People tend to think SM needs to be EQ'd into oblivion, but it doesn't have to be because SM is not there to provide a nice tone. It's there to provide attacks, expression, proper note duration, gnarly growly little details, I kind of think of it as the close mic that has all the gritty details.
Massively boosted low end on the Hollywood Brass bones, like well over 6db+. Again, sound is leading, not the visuals on the EQ.
I'm very happyto have Spat v3 to help me but I know it's near impossible to get. However, you absolutely position SM without it. SM's built-in ER's kinda suck, set them to zero and replace with the Cinematic Rooms ones, those are much, much better and the various distances in CR can have a profound effect on how SM is perceived.

If you're interested I may be able to do a more detailed breakdown with all plugin settings involved. It may take me a while to get to though because I don't currently have a lot of time available.


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> The BB Trumpets a la carte are a slippery slope! That's where I started too
> 
> When you get MSB let us know how you get on, I'd love to know more about your experience with it. It doesn't get a lot of talk around here and I've been very curious.


Yes, MSB will be a risky purchase but I have to go with it. If it doesn't work out then I'm only out $400 clams and considering this is our life's work, well worth the risk, but I'm very sure just the euphoniums alone would be worth it for me.


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

Project Anvil said:


> Thanks, I think I can do better but like I said, this was fairly quickly done.
> 
> So now that you've heard the result, here's the breakdown, some of the things might surprise you:
> 
> ...


Always interested. I ditched The Trumpet V 2.52 because of the amount of EQ I needed to get it to sit with other stuff. But, I've requested an additional license because I lost it and SM were happy to let me know that I can get V3 at a discount. So I'll start with that again. It was my secret weapon for years so I don't understand how I lost it.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 22, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Always interested. I ditched The Trumpet V 2.52 because of the amount of EQ I needed to get it to sit with other stuff. But, I've requested an additional license because I lost it and SM were happy to let me know that I can get V3 at a discount. So I'll start with that again. It was my secret weapon for years so I don't understand how I lost it.


That's the thing though, I don't think it needs much EQ. 

If you have:
- Pro Q3
- Cinematic Rooms Pro
- 2C Precedence

Try this:
- SM Trumpet set the Early Reflections on the Virtual Sound Stage settings page to zero.
- Insert 1: Pro Q3.
- Insert 2: Cinematic Rooms (the ER preset)
- Insert 3: 2c Precedence
- Insert 4 (or on aux bus): Cinematic Rooms (the tail preset).

Preset files are in the zip attach. I think it sounds decent by itself but it will really shine when layered with another traditional lib (in my case typically HWB).

Slight pitchbends on the attack of notes also helps as does a tiny bit of growl (CC21 I believe) here and there.

EDIT: here is a tiny example of brass that's only SM+HWB. It's the only stem I had at hand so it's a bit short, but should demonstrate the possibilities at least:


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

Project Anvil said:


> That's the thing though, I don't think it needs much EQ.
> 
> If you have:
> - Pro Q3
> ...



Thanks! 
You basically described my brass sound from 2010 to 2020.


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## Project Anvil (Apr 22, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Thanks!
> You basically described my brass sound from 2010 to 2020.


Just to be clear, I know you've been around here and other MIDI forums a lot longer than me so I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm saying that either already knew or had already tried. If that's the case it might actually be a bit annoying to you and I apologize. I don't mean to lecture you or anyone on how I think things should be done.

Rather, I've discovered for myself that I kept falling into a trap of buying libraries thinking this time it would be the one that solved all problems. The honeymoon phase only lasts so long however, and then it's on to the next one.

The reason I hopped in this thread is because I sometimes feel this forum pushes buying new things over helping people get the most out of things they might already own. I thought you already had HWB and the SM stuff, hence my reply.


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## ZeeCount (Apr 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> For those that have both, which do you prefer - SM Brass or Infinite Brass?


SM has a more realistic tone, but I find Infinite works much better as a cohesive whole.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 22, 2022)

Project Anvil said:


> Try this:
> - SM Trumpet set the Early Reflections on the Virtual Sound Stage settings page to zero.
> - Insert 1: Pro Q3.
> - Insert 2: Cinematic Rooms (the ER preset)
> ...


Cool approach! Never even thought about throwing in ERs in front of Precedence. We need to get a thread or forum dedicated to your tips and tricks, because they are solid gold.


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## shawnsingh (Apr 22, 2022)

What do you think of this tone, say, at 1:20ish or 3:15 or 3:30?

Going back to #11 about the examples you're referencing... I think we need to rethink our ideas of what really contributes to "tone". Case in point is exactly the difference in sound of the two examples you posted. I feel they do differ a lot in reverb and recording style and maybe even the balance of levels of different instruments in the orchestra. Instead, a lot of what makes these examples feel similar in "tone" is the orchestration and sustained nature of the chords on those excerpts.

People on this forum are already producing/composing at a high level, at that point "tone" is unavoidably more than just the sound of the room and recording/mixing style. After those aspects are "good enough", then performance nuances, orchestration, and even the composition itself can deeply affect our perception of "tone". Same for "realism" as well.

So from that perspective, I think it's becoming really important to look for libraries that have the ability to control performance and expression very deeply. Problem is, so far deep expression control has been at odds with finding libraries that have great pre-mixed in situ qualities, and both of those qualities have been at odds with finding libraries that have an easy workflow. Personally I want the future of sample libraries to consider ways to solve all three of these things together, rather than just continuing the "deep sampled articulation in a famous studio" approach.


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## sound team apk (Apr 22, 2022)

ZeeCount said:


> SM has a more realistic tone, but I find Infinite works much better as a cohesive whole.


@ALittleNightMusic I have an IB mock of the Silverado Main Titles using only IB that I've been working on, to see what it could handle. You inspired me to toss SM into it to see what would happen. Again, not a fair comparison, but some of it was more interesting than I expected. If you'd like to hear the result, PM me. (I'm happy to share with others too, but I don't want to take this thread in yet another direction.)


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 22, 2022)

sound team apk said:


> @ALittleNightMusic I have an IB mock of the Silverado Main Titles using only IB that I've been working on, to see what it could handle. You inspired me to toss SM into it to see what would happen. Again, not a fair comparison, but some of it was more interesting than I expected. If you'd like to hear the result, PM me. (I'm happy to share with others too, but I don't want to take this thread in yet another direction.)


I'm sure folks would love to hear it here!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Apr 22, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Cool approach! Never even thought about throwing in ERs in front of Precedence. We need to get a thread or forum dedicated to your tips and tricks, because they are solid gold.


Adding ERs as an insert on The Trumpet was literally the first thing I did after purchasing it and loading it on a track. Pretty obvious move tbh.


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

shawnsingh said:


> What do you think of this tone, say, at 1:20ish or 3:15 or 3:30?
> 
> Going back to #11 about the examples you're referencing... I think we need to rethink our ideas of what really contributes to "tone". Case in point is exactly the difference in sound of the two examples you posted. I feel they do differ a lot in reverb and recording style and maybe even the balance of levels of different instruments in the orchestra. Instead, a lot of what makes these examples feel similar in "tone" is the orchestration and sustained nature of the chords on those excerpts.
> 
> ...



It's a great sound. It really has an older film sound to it. I like it.


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

@Trash Panda Why the started emoji. Is it Infinite brass or something? I like the sound, maybe not my kind of sound but it's good.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 22, 2022)

Take my thoughts with a grain of salt as the creator of Hollywood Orchestra. I like some of the big fat low brass in Metropolis. I like all the Junkie XL Brass. The 12 horns are cool. More grand than aggressive though. Berlin Brass is very good. I still like the Hollywood Orchestra 6 horns more than anything else out there. Huge dynamics and the best legato. 6 horns is the magical number. Hollywood 3 trumpets and new 2 trumpets are also as good or better than everything out there. The 3 bones were limited and more on the aggressive side, but we added the new 2 bones which are more grand. Im not sure who has the best bones. Probably not HO. But don’t forget we used top Hollywood players and Sean Murphy was the engineer. Thomas and I directed the players. I wouldn’t assume that newer stuff is better. Anyway some of HO is new as well.


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## José Herring (Apr 22, 2022)

Quantum Leap said:


> Take my thoughts with a grain of salt as the creator of Hollywood Orchestra. I like some of the big fat low brass in Metropolis. I like all the Junkie XL Brass. The 12 horns are cool. More grand than aggressive though. Berlin Brass is very good. I still like the Hollywood Orchestra 6 horns more than anything else out there. Huge dynamics and the best legato. 6 horns is the magical number. Hollywood 3 trumpets and new 2 trumpets are also as good or better than everything out there. The 3 bones were limited and more on the aggressive side, but we added the new 2 bones which are more grand. Im not sure who has the best bones. Probably not HO. But don’t forget we used top Hollywood players and Sean Murphy was the engineer. Thomas and I directed the players. I wouldn’t assume that newer stuff is better. Anyway some of HO is new as well.


Nick! Cool to hear from you. Yeah, you don't have to sell me on HOOPUS formerly HO. 
Brother they'll have to pry HO and now HOOPUS from my cold dead hands. I have no plan on moving on to newer pastures. HOOPUS is the center piece of my template! I seriously have arranged everything else underneath HOOPUS in my template. Yeah, I know I'm gushing but I've used it for so long.

Hint, if EW added one more solo instrument to HB for each instrument, I wouldn't have started this thread.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 23, 2022)

My go to brass libs are HB and SM. (I also have Ark 1, Adventure Brass and others but rarely use them.)

I’m considering CSB. No love here?


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## José Herring (Apr 23, 2022)

NYC Composer said:


> My go to brass libs are HB and SM. (I also have Ark 1, Adventure Brass and others but rarely use them.)
> 
> I’m considering CSB. No love here?


The thread kind of veered into a brass library comparison, but my original intention was that I was looking for a library that had soloist at least first and 2nd chairs so I can more easily do divisi brass writting w/o have to mix and blend multiple libraries. CSB is great I'm sure but I feel like it'd be more of what I already have. 
So, I'm looking at MSB, VSL and BB as divisi brass libraries. With MSB kind of winning the $+quality debate and VSL kind of winning the sonically badass debate and BB topping off the yeah it's quality but it cost debate.


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## Quantum Leap (Apr 23, 2022)

I think Berlin is the way to go for that.


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## sound team apk (Apr 24, 2022)

NYC Composer said:


> My go to brass libs are HB and SM. (I also have Ark 1, Adventure Brass and others but rarely use them.)
> 
> I’m considering CSB. No love here?


Since I made a comment earlier about how I replace CSB "more often" than BB with modeled instruments, I want to clarify that it was a statement of preference rather than a quality judgment:

1. Someone much more skilled at this than I am (@NoamL) uses CSB for practically everything, and he shows quite a bit of love for it in this comment: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/its-that-time-of-year-brass-libraries.124064/post-5089480

2. Alex Wallbank's libraries are excellent. One can debate whether the sound is to one's taste or whatever, but one can't debate the quality and consistency of what's on offer. If anything I'm disappointed that (so far) I find the intonation not quite right for me, because otherwise it's the kind of library I'd love use. For a more studio sound, I intend to keep trying (in combination with HB).


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## tonio_ (Apr 25, 2022)

I've learned to love Berlin Brass, but it took some tweaking. If you are prepared to spend a few hours adjusting volume levels between different instruments and activating things like Soft Low Layer and/or Niente depending on the instrument or articulation. But once you do that, honestly, it's an amazing library. And you can do all that in SINE so it doesn't require any additional processing. 

Some things that I did:
- Balanced volume of the 4 lengths of shorts within each instrument (mostly minor adjustments on 1 articulation of the 4 on 2 or 3 instruments in total). From memory, I believe that Marcato Longs were a bit loud on Horn 1 and Staccatissimo on one of the Bones was a bit too quiet. 
- Separated the newly recorded ff layer from the normal sustains/legato patches. Read the bottom of the post for more info. I only did this on the Trumpets and the Trombones, the Tuba and Horns were perfect out of the box.

Does it suck to do these things? I kinda had fun doing it, not gonna lie, but was also angry that I had to. But I know each instrument inside out, so it was beneficial for the most part in my eyes.

The sound is definitely there and I think that once SINE evolves and BBR bugs are fixed (thus removing the need for tinkering), it will be a no brainer. Plus John Powell uses it so, yeah.


For those interested in the tinkering I did to the longs:
The way the longs are set up are: Sustains with an immediate attack, sustains with a soft attack, sustains with an accented attack (sforzando basically) and sustains bold (fff or ff depending on the instrument). The latter 2 are fine the way they are. The others are a bit bumpy on crossfades and volume jumps on the higher dynamics on the Trombones and Trumpets. I deactivated the newly recorded ff layer on Bones and Trumpets on Sustains and Sustains soft, then re-imported those same articulations and only enabled the top layer. So you essentially end up with the same dynamic layers as in the Kontakt version in one articulation and then the ff on another (I actually also added the f layer, just to have a bit of room for modwheeling, doesn't use extra RAM). Once I did that change, everything was smooth as butter on both ends. It also has the side effect of giving you more modwheel room for the lower, more noble and refined dynamics.

Now obviously, depending on your DAW and the way you set up your artics (one track per artic vs keyswitches), this may be annoying. I'm personally on Cubase 11 Pro, and I've split each instrument into 3 tracks: Legato (all sustains and marcatos with legato), Bread & Butter (all sustains without legato, marcatos, staccatos, reps, trills, runs), Dynamics (swells, crescendos). And then I use Expression maps to switch between the artics on each track. Works quite well with the mods I did and I don't feel that it hinders my workflow: generally, I know when I want loud stuff and I rarely crossfade up to it from soft dynamics, I just use Crescendos for that, sounds better anyway.


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## Zanshin (Apr 25, 2022)

I appreciate your overview of how you are working with BB @tonio_ !

I've done some of that, but I'm going to try your idea of splitting out the new FF layers out into additional keyswitches. It's frustrating though.


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## Casiquire (Apr 25, 2022)

NoamL said:


> [(Particularly amongst the trumpets, I hear on real life recordings over and over, that they DO NOT play equal dynamics. The principal chair really leads.)


That right there is why i never minded the fact you couldn't copy the same midi data from one BB instrument to the next and expect an identical performance. They were designed to play differently on purpose. The result is best when used as intended.

I'm still in favor of suggesting the kontakt versions of the Berlin series. I never felt i needed a FF layer in the sustains since the redundancy in the library takes care of that issue. Between Berlin, MSB, and Dimension Brass, i don't think you can go wrong. All three are great at ensemble building and/or serving as your main brass library. You could go the modeling route as well, but that's a polarizing option.


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## tonio_ (Apr 25, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I appreciate your overview of how you are working with BB @tonio_ !
> 
> I've done some of that, but I'm going to try your idea of splitting out the new FF layers out into additional keyswitches. It's frustrating though.


No worries, happy to share my findings and save others the frustration of searching around for workarounds! Yeah for sure it's not okay that we have to come up with workarounds for a 800 euro library. And the most annoying part is that, it's simply sloppy programming that should have been fixed by now.

Just to clear up something, don't take off the top layer on the 2nd trumpet, that one doesn't have an "integrated" top layer, it was put into "Sustains bold" instead. That being said, I feel like the Bones suffered the most from the buggy crossfades and volume inconsistencies, so you could try leaving the trumpets alone and seeing whether you like them.

Another solution which I've thought of recently, was to edit the dynamic curves and push back the top layer to the last few CC1 values (like from 120 to 127) to prolong the really rich "f" layer.



Casiquire said:


> That right there is why i never minded the fact you couldn't copy the same midi data from one BB instrument to the next and expect an identical performance. They were designed to play differently on purpose. The result is best when used as intended.
> 
> I'm still in favor of suggesting the kontakt versions of the Berlin series. I never felt i needed a FF layer in the sustains since the redundancy in the library takes care of that issue. Between Berlin, MSB, and Dimension Brass, i don't think you can go wrong. All three are great at ensemble building and/or serving as your main brass library. You could go the modeling route as well, but that's a polarizing option.


The thing is, the instruments are already different enough by themselves, so the sound would change even if you copy-paste things. For example, Horn 1 and 3 are very different and you can perfectly well copy-paste lines between them with minimal editing and they will always sound good (pretty much). Same for Horns 2 and 4 (excluding Staccatissimo, Horn 4 is unreasonably loud at p and strangely quiet at ff). Trumpets work quite well too in that regard. But the Bones are a bit of a mess, one Bone's "mf" is another's "p", I personally feel like that's a bit too much variance that isn't due to the sound but to the programming.

Also, volume levels... Those should at least be consistent between the instruments, otherwise what even is the point of putting those labels there?

I agree that I would have preferred to get the Kontakt version over the SINE however. It would have saved me many headaches!


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## Steve W. (Apr 25, 2022)

I did a version of the following excerpt from Bruckner's Symphony no 8 some time ago using Berlin Brass (kontakt) and Junkie XL Brass.


Haven't found the time yet to sculpt a performance so it's just notes and dynamics markings from the score.
The instrument numbers are like in the score (a solo horn line is played by 1 horn ,...)
If a note is played by 3 or 4 instruments I used the horns a4 and trombones a3
horns a4 : jxl horn a4
horn 1-4 : bb
horn 5-6 : jxl solo horn
trumpet 1-3 : jxl solo trumpet and bb solo trumpet 2
trombones a3 : jxl trombones a3
trombone 1-3 : jxl solo trombone
tuba : jxl tuba

Strings, woodwinds and timpani are vsl synchron


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## Steve W. (Apr 25, 2022)

Here is a version with all Berlin Brass (Kontakt version so no sine fff layers )


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## Steve W. (Apr 25, 2022)

And as you wrote that you have the JXL solo trombone here a Berlin Brass version where I exchanged the 3 solo trombones from Berlin brass with the JXL solo trombone.


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## RogiervG (Apr 26, 2022)

Steve W. said:


> Here is a version with all Berlin Brass (Kontakt version so no sine fff layers )


I prefer this one, in the context of the orchestra.. (sounds more cohesive)


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2022)

Great stuff @Steve W. Thank you for posting your excellent work.

I also prefer the Berlin Brass version compared with the others, though the brass in all of them sounds very good.

@José Herring Have you tried out any of Spitfire's brass? I find it's quite good at the "intimate" sound. I also like Hollywood Brass (and JXL and BB) so I'm not a partisan about it. However, I feel the purity test of using only one library is mostly an emotional, intellectual predilection, not really so much a musical one. 

Naturally, you have to try to match like with like somewhat (in other words, one doesn't want to use Close mics on one and Hall on another). That said, especially for a big segment like this Bruckner 8th, whether Tpt 1 and Tpt 2 were recorded in different halls doesn't make a meaningful difference to the overall sound.

I also ordered the Dover score for the Bruckner 8th. That is a wonderful sound!

[note: I have received free products from Spitfire and East West]


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## José Herring (Apr 26, 2022)

tonio_ said:


> I've learned to love Berlin Brass, but it took some tweaking. If you are prepared to spend a few hours adjusting volume levels between different instruments and activating things like Soft Low Layer and/or Niente depending on the instrument or articulation. But once you do that, honestly, it's an amazing library. And you can do all that in SINE so it doesn't require any additional processing.
> 
> Some things that I did:
> - Balanced volume of the 4 lengths of shorts within each instrument (mostly minor adjustments on 1 articulation of the 4 on 2 or 3 instruments in total). From memory, I believe that Marcato Longs were a bit loud on Horn 1 and Staccatissimo on one of the Bones was a bit too quiet.
> ...


Yes, I studied John Powell's template a lot. He doesn't use anything but Kontakt libraries it seems and I can understand why. So I think he's not using the Sine version unless he upgraded which I wouldn't have any information about. 
Seeing that OT is moving away from Kontakt worries me a little. Not too much though. 
Thank you for the tips.



Steve W. said:


> I did a version of the following excerpt from Bruckner's Symphony no 8 some time ago using Berlin Brass (kontakt) and Junkie XL Brass.
> 
> 
> Haven't found the time yet to sculpt a performance so it's just notes and dynamics markings from the score.
> ...



First use of JXL solo trumpet that didn't make me cringe. Good work. 
Yes, I do have JXL. I bought quite a bit ala carte. But never considered getting the trumpets. 


JohnG said:


> Great stuff @Steve W. Thank you for posting your excellent work.
> 
> I also prefer the Berlin Brass version compared with the others, though the brass in all of them sounds very good.
> 
> ...


I liked SSB but held out on getting it because I wanted to see what they are going to do with Abbey Road. 
I have a wicked terrible time dealing with patches in multiple libraries. I'm starting to see that it's because each patch is programmed differently so the phrasing that I did for one patch practically has to be figured out again on another patch from a different library. I've done it for years so I'm not complaining too much, but given what @tonio_ wrote concerning getting BB to work, I'm starting to realize that the problem isn't really solved by just getting solo instruments from the same library.


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2022)

José Herring said:


> the phrasing that I did for one patch practically has to be figured out again on another patch from a different library.


100% true. 

And on top of that, as you know, even within the same library, copying from one instrument family to another can go awry. A solo trombone copied straight (8vb) from trumpet 1 often requires meaningful rework (although DP has some new features that at least solve the articulation changes -- I can't remember if you even have DP anymore?).



José Herring said:


> given what @tonio_ wrote concerning getting BB to work, I'm starting to realize that the problem isn't really solved by just getting solo instruments from the same library.


Also, no doubt, true.


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## Casiquire (Apr 26, 2022)

Steve W. said:


> Here is a version with all Berlin Brass (Kontakt version so no sine fff layers )


Fantastic work there. I agree that the Berlin version is better overall but it's clear that your ability to use the libraries means more.


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## José Herring (Apr 26, 2022)

JohnG said:


> 100% true.
> 
> And on top of that, as you know, even within the same library, copying from one instrument family to another can go awry. A solo trombone copied straight (8vb) from trumpet 1 often requires meaningful rework (although DP has some new features that at least solve the articulation changes -- I can't remember if you even have DP anymore?).
> 
> ...


I flirt with going back to DP because I've been so frustrated with the direction that Cubase had been going in but this latest version of Cubase is actually really good so I'm sticking with Cbase for a while now.


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## tonio_ (Apr 27, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Yes, I studied John Powell's template a lot. He doesn't use anything but Kontakt libraries it seems and I can understand why. So I think he's not using the Sine version unless he upgraded which I wouldn't have any information about.
> Seeing that OT is moving away from Kontakt worries me a little. Not too much though.
> Thank you for the tips.
> 
> ...


Well to be honest, I really didn't do much aside from adjusting the articulation volumes and separating the top layer. You only have to do that once and now that you know what to do, it won't take you as much time as it took me, then save the patch and all will be gucci. That top layer is the real issue, so I'd recommend going for the Kontakt version and just waiting for SINE to get fixed. That being said, the Kontakt version has some volume inconsistencies between the Horns, which are absent in SINE. The Horns in SINE are actually very very good. Or just get both versions for an extra 100 euros, which is what I wish I had done.

Also I'd recommend getting Trumpets 2 and 3 from the SINE version, rather than the 1st one. The first one has a great sound (like really great), but it's got a few bugs unlike the other 2. Bumpy crossfades, bugged legato once you deactivate the top layer and Marcato Long and Shorts share the same samples for some reason. So to save yourself the trouble just grab the other 2. I particularly like Trumpet 3, it's got a very "clean" tone.

I have the Trombone from JXL and I actually find that it doesn't have as much overlap with BBR as I had thought, as in, it isn't a direct replacement. Once the top dynamic layer is removed and articulation volumes adjusted, the BBR Trombones are very good. They are a bit more "loose" in the shorts and have a very rich (and different) tone in the longs.


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