# Need help with strings programming (Cubase, LASS, Adagio Violins)



## Arvianth (Jun 27, 2013)

Programming strings have always been my weak point. So after spending a whole day on this piece i give up and beg for help. :( I would appreciate to hear what my mistakes are.
Here's the piece:
https://soundcloud.com/arvianth/a-treas ... red-wip-01

And a project file (Cubase 5):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/130453999/A%20Treasure%20Most%20Desired-15.cpr (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/130 ... red-15.cpr)

Thanks!


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## Hannes_F (Jun 28, 2013)

Hi Arvianth,

I think your programming is not so bad at all. Perhaps the problems can be solved elsewhere.

First thing I notice is that your writing is quite along the idea of "melody in the right hand, chords/accompagnement (sp?) in the left hand". You don't do that totally, but there is a tendency towards it. That is fine for many occasions, but strings writing is thankful for giving little melodies to every part.

Then, your lower parts move very predictable. Basically on the one or when your melody moves a lot. Again, you don't do that totally but there is a tencency. Try to change that a bit - move the bass during a longer note in the melody, let it sit now and then when the melody is busy. Nothing to be overdone but helpful as an idea.

Then, your lower non-pizz strings play thick notes or chords without much animation. Basically you treat them like an organ, therefore it sounds pad-like or organ-like. Let the notes in the celli bounce, dance, develop.

Then, you strive for a big, epic sound, do you? Be careful with the harshness though. Sometimes less @3kHz is more. An animated EQ in that range can work wonders.

Finally, with strings it is often about grace and proportion. Try to carve away what distubs but don't be drastic. You know that already and it shows in your programming, just saying.

Hope that helps
Hannes

EDIT
As an exercise for me I tried what I could do with just mouse programmed samples in the piano roll. I mostly use libraries that are so old that they are not even available any more, so the sound might not be what you are after and your version stands up quite well against it but anyways here it is:

EDIT2: Isn't it funny how different we hear the same thing after a few days. Happens all the time to me. Anyways, here is a better version (I think):

http://strings-on-demand.com/demos/Arvianth-03.mp3


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## MR F (Jun 28, 2013)

> Then, your lower parts move very predictable. Basically on the one or when your melody moves a lot. Again, you don't do that totally but there is a tencency. Try to change that a bit - move the bass during a longer note in the melody, let it sit now and then when the melody is busy. Nothing to be overdone but helpful as an idea.


This is so true. I was making the same mistake for a really long time. Melody played with the right hand and simple triads played by left made my music sound 'dull and unrealistic'. Try to take each chord played by the strings and make it more complicated don't just play simple triads but try adding melodic lines for cellos, basses etc- you have to find what works for you (just like Hannes has said). Good idea is to listen to the scores of your favourite composers and see how they compose for string sections. 
P.S. Hint: I've noticed that reverb is very important if you want your strings to sound realistic but this is a whole new ball game.


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## Arvianth (Jun 28, 2013)

Hannes, thanks a lot! I'll definitely pay more attention to the rest of the strings. Violins are now my main concern though. 
Also, could you please share the midi of your version?

EDIT
MR F, thanks :3 I'm going to find some John Williams scores for that. Also, anything in particular about the reverb?


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## Hannes_F (Jun 28, 2013)

Arvianth @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> Also, could you please share the midi of your version?



Nothing special but here it is:
http://strings-on-demand.com/demos/Arvianth_midi.MID


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## MR F (Jun 28, 2013)

It depends on what sound you want to achieve  It's really trial and error method. You can just use simple cubase reverb to try new ideas. For example: for that warm hollywood sound you may try using church hall reverb preset and eq-ing ( -5 db on 2 khz etc.) but just like with the composition - you have to find out what works for you  btw: Try researching this forum- I've found so much information about using reverb with strings in here. It's a real gold mine


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## Hannes_F (Jun 28, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> Arvianth @ Fri Jun 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, could you please share the midi of your version?
> ...



... however just not to put wool over your eyes here is a screenshot of my DAW in order for you to see how much automation and editing I added after the midi:

http://strings-on-demand.com/demos/Arvianth.jpg

Hope that helps, Hannes


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## Arvianth (Jun 28, 2013)

So there's CC1, Expression, Volume, what else?


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## Daryl (Jun 28, 2013)

Arvianth, I think there are two separate issues here:

1) Your writing
2) Your programming

The problem is that even if your writing was working well, your programming is not of a good enough standard for you to hear that. I would suggest that you approach the two things separately for a while.

Write on paper or in a notation program and see how all the instruments work together, until you feel confident with your writing for Strings.

Program some existing pieces of String music from the scores. That way you will be able to do an A/B comparison with a recording to see exactly where the problems lie in your version. Be prepared to put a lot of time into this. It's not easy, and most people fail dismally at it. Persevere. Good luck.  

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 28, 2013)

Daryl @ Fri Jun 28 said:


> Arvianth, I think there are two separate issues here:
> 
> 1) Your writing
> 2) Your programming
> ...



Good advice from a guy who walks the walk, not just talks the talk.


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## Rob (Jun 28, 2013)

As for programming, Hannes' advice is sound as always... 
For the writing, I think the melody has a major issue, that is the Eb note, the tonic, that keeps appearing too often... the melody keeps falling on the Eb and never really tales off, in my opinion. You could try swapping the Eb with other notes to see what happens. Also, you should have a clearer idea of what the harmonies are under the main melody and write an orderly score where each section does its thing... here I attach a pdf of an example of how you might allocate the various voices, just strings, first 8 bars...


www.robertosoggetti.com/Treasure.pdf


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## Arvianth (Jun 28, 2013)

So, reprogrammed violas and celli, fixed excessive E♭'s
https://soundcloud.com/arvianth/a-treas ... red-wip-02
Cpr:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/130453999/A%20Treasure%20Most%20Desired-19.cpr (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/130 ... red-19.cpr)

Also i will appreciate a lot if someone shares some more bits of midi, especially for LASS ^.^"


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## Hannes_F (Jun 28, 2013)

Arviant,

we've confused you ... the new version is not better, it is worse . . . (much worse imo).

You know the problem is - you want a fast fix and you want it all at once. Backgound choir is singing - Queen: I want it all, I want it now (and we are giving you advice about all at once too 8) ). And all that is very natural.

However if you have one 3 m giant step and want to climb on top of it then you either need to be a very experienced climber or you could try hundred years and always fail. However if you divide that into 30 steps à 10 cm then you have a comfortable stair and will be up much earlier than you think.

So - be your own teacher and divide the problem into steps. Daryl is right - do an easy classical strings piece for mockup first. Rob is right too. I'd say come back to this thread now and then and you will find that lots of things have already been said here (without you really noticing it because you are already asking for more advice before digesting what is already there - but that is normal :| ).

Hope this helps
Hannes


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## Arvianth (Jun 29, 2013)

I understand, just wanted to finish that piece before the inspiration runs out ._. Will do some string quartets. 

***** *EDIT*
Argh ... Arvianth, I hit the wrong button and edited your post instead of quoting and answering. I'm very sorry. I tried to restore your post from memory, feel free please to correct your wording. Hannes *****


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## Justin Miller (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't think we should be telling him his writing is wrong here--the tune could be strong if programmed right. 
Try some of these things:

pan those bass pizz more right

watch funny dips in the volume, like at the end of the first phrase

I feel like the reverb is too roomy and short, and should be more lush and long

the cello lines should swell up and down a good bit more

the strings sound like they are playing more detaché (detached) than they would normally

maybe some tempo variation around the ends of phrases

pull the oboe more towards the center

another thing to consider is that you could make this much more dynamic by making use of cc11 more--after looking at the waveform you can see that its pretty much almost the same volume the entire time

side note--if you struggle to set harps and pianos into the mix, focus on their presence being more interesting and more upfront in the mix

I would open up an EQ with an frequency analyzer or download Blue Cat Audio - FreqAnalyst2 (free). This will let you get a decent image of the frequency balance, as it plays an important part in clarity and will keep you from overdoing any EQ adjustments.

Good luck and keep inspired!


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## Hannes_F (Jun 30, 2013)

Arvianth @ Sun Jun 30 said:


> I understand, just wanted to finish that piece before the inspiration runs out ._.



That is a good plan. Snippets and sound studies are well and good but finishing a piece is essential 

All the best, Hannes


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## Arvianth (Jul 14, 2013)

Ok, another try from scratch :3 Legato scripts didn't work in LASS auto-arranger multis for some reason oO I also threw out Adagio for now, can't get them behave properly.

https://soundcloud.com/arvianth/a-treas ... sired-v3-1

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/130453999/A%20Treasure%20Most%20Desired%20V3-16.cpr (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/130 ... 0V3-16.cpr)


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## Arvianth (Jul 20, 2013)

https://soundcloud.com/arvianth/a-treas ... ired-final
That's how it ends up, i suppose. Thanks everyone for help ^_^ There's still a lot to learn.


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