# 7/8 time signature...?



## Puzzlefactory (Jun 19, 2017)

Just been watching a YouTube video tutorial and the guy making it says that 7/8 is a common time signature for writing "action" music.

I've not come across this before. Can anyone offer some insight into why it's the case? (If it is indeed the case)?


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## Daniel Petras (Jun 19, 2017)

I think 4/4 will always be the most common time. It would seem the appeal of 7/8 in action music is that it has a sort of lopsided feel (it's hard to explain) or a feeling of on edge due to the fact that the ear is so used to hearing a perfect 4/4 all the time.


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## ckiraly (Jun 19, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> Just been watching a YouTube video tutorial and the guy making it says that 7/8 is a common time signature for writing "action" music.
> 
> I've not come across this before. Can anyone offer some insight into why it's the case? (If it is indeed the case)?



With 7/8 timing, you can easily (naturally) accent things you can't with 4/4. The odd-timed accenting builds a tension as compared to 4/4.


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## Orchestrata (Jun 19, 2017)

What Sonorityscape said. There's a certain energy / urgency to 7/8 (as it's used in action music). It lends itself to being a little more abstract, too. On a practical level, 4/4 is often a little more comfortable on the viewer's ear, so using something a little more unusual works well with fast, dramatic cuts and the odd emphases / accents one may need to hit. I imagine that's the video's line of reasoning.


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## chillbot (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm a huge fan of writing in 5/8 7/8 9/8 11/8 13/8 15/8 and also 11/16 13/16 15/16 etc I do it probably as often as I use 4/4 just for variety. It's so easy to do in a DAW... not that you couldn't do it with a live orchestra of course you could. But you can make everything nice and tight in a DAW which sells it to the listener as "intentional" whereas if a live orch doesn't perfectly nail it it may come off as a mistake. It's more of a rhythmic thing (no reason to write a slow emotional piece in 15/16) and the rhythm lends itself well to action... marcato and brass and perc all hitting in unison, maybe low piano, bass, guitar, synths as well.

So when you're scoring to picture it's so much easier to hit picture, musically, with so many more hit points. In 4/4 you are basically limited to 4 downbeats and maaaybe 4 off-beats. If you insert even a bar of 3/4 (much less 3/8) in order to hit something, the listener can feel a bit jolted because we are so used to counting in 4/4. If you're hammering eighth-notes in 7/8 or 9/8 for example, you can hit virtually anywhere... and, it's far easier to slip in a bar of 3/8 or 5/8 or even 4/4 and the listener will hardly notice.



ckiraly said:


> With 7/8 timing, you can easily (naturally) accent things you can't with 4/4.



Posted as I was posting, exactly.

I think the trick to selling it to the listener is just repetition. Just pick a pattern and hammer the pattern home. We are pretty used to hearing 5/4 and 7/8 as they've become more common. If you want to write in 13/8 just come up with any old pattern such as *1* 2 3 *4* 5 6 *7* 8 9 *10* 11 *12* 13 and repeat it until it sounds like 4/4.


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## Maxime Luft (Jun 19, 2017)

Well I just released a 7/8 track and the writing has been honestly quite a bit exciting than with a 4/4 time signature.



"United we stand, divided we fall" by TSFH is also in 7/8 time signature, you surely already came across it!


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## DervishCapkiner (Jun 19, 2017)

I wrote this two years ago so my use of samples is not very well balanced or realistic but after the weird, experimental intro this goes into 7/8 with a middle eastern/classical vibe of old. What I like about writing in odd times is how it seems to lend itself to starting a melody half-way through a bar.


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## IvanP (Jun 19, 2017)

Funny, pretty true!

To me 7/8 has something of a stolen pulse feel, like if a 8/8 was suddenly been cut, which adds to the urgency and need of résolution...but you can also do action in other meters

Here's an example using both 4/4 and 7/8 (second half of the piece)


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## gjelul (Jun 19, 2017)

Not sure why the 7/8 is always used in the 2+2+3 form, and not in the 2+3+2, 3+2+2 or even in a sequence combining these variations. End titles for Wonder Woman has a 7/8 section, again in 2+2+3... 
Perfect source for these combined rhythms and how to use them is music from the Balkans (especially Albanian music) -- it's totally normal for them to play and dance to these types of rhythms.


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## Daniel Petras (Jun 19, 2017)

gjelul said:


> Not sure why the 7/8 is always used in the 2+2+3 form, and not in the 2+3+2, 3+2+2 or even in a sequence combining these variations. End titles for Wonder Woman has a 7/8 section, again in 2+2+3...
> Perfect source for these combined rhythms and how to use them is music from the Balkans (especially Albanian music) -- it's totally normal for them to play and dance to these types of rhythms.



I think the reason is because, even though we're talking about an unstable time signature here, the 2+2+3 is more stable due to the fact that you have repetition followed by something different for the third grouping. I think the latter two you mentioned are fine to use, just more unstable to our ears.


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## gjelul (Jun 19, 2017)

Sonorityscape said:


> I think the reason is because, even though we're talking about an unstable time signature here, the 2+2+3 is more stable due to the fact that you have repetition followed by something different for the third grouping. I think the latter two you mentioned are fine to use, just more unstable to our ears.



I believe it has to do with just repetition. One simple form, and then repeat the sh... out of it, it will become at some point 'normal.' 2+2+3 is used from Yanni to mostly every film score cue that has the 7/8 as a meter. Nothing wrong with that, but why not use for example 2+3+2 and then repeat the sh.... out of it for the next 5 years?


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## Daniel Petras (Jun 19, 2017)

gjelul said:


> I believe it has to do with just repetition. One simple form, and then repeat the sh... out of it, it will become at some point 'normal.' 2+2+3 is used from Yanni to mostly every film score cue that has the 7/8 as a meter. Nothing wrong with that, but why not use for example 2+3+2 and then repeat the sh.... out of it for the next 5 years?



If you put the strongest accent on beat one for 2+3+2, it's going to sound unstable to the ear when compared to 2+2+3 because of the same, same, different rule (whatever it's called). I was just speaking in terms of a measure at a time, generally it will sound more unstable. I'm sure the ear would get used to it, but I don't think it could ever like it as much as 2+2+3.


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## wbacer (Jun 19, 2017)

Check out Jerry Goldsmith's "Total Recall" score.
The middle section of "8M2 The Big Jump" goes on for 8 pages of 7/8 3/4 7/8 3/4 7/8 3/4 etc.
Try and transcribe that without the score in hand...and where is one?


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## chibear (Jun 19, 2017)

No matter what the pattern, if you write it you should be able to conduct it.


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## afterlight82 (Jun 19, 2017)

Compound meters are really great...so long as they don't sound too "fun" for tense moments, or too contrived...they don't let you settle...and they're really easy to jump in and out of in quick intercutting...


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## afterlight82 (Jun 19, 2017)

simultaneous meters are also very cool...had some action music in a game last year with three time signatures going on at once that interlocked cyclically. The things one can do with sequencers that would be real headaches otherwise...


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## mcalis (Jun 19, 2017)

IvanP said:


> Funny, pretty true!
> 
> To me 7/8 has something of a stolen pulse feel, like if a 8/8 was suddenly been cut, which adds to the urgency and need of résolution...but you can also do action in other meters
> 
> Here's an example using both 4/4 and 7/8 (second half of the piece)



This is an absolutely astounding piece. Very well written! Since your username is IvanP, I am going to guess you're the one who wrote this? If so, great job! This is going straight into my favourites! 

Apologies for going off topic for a second, but I just had to mention how great that piece is!


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## Brian2112 (Jun 19, 2017)

Obviously a prog rock/Rush head here so my heart actually beats in 7. And I am unstable.


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## karelpsota (Jun 19, 2017)

It has some interesting accents. The end of the bar takes you by surprise since it arrives a beat earlier than expected (8/8). There's a sense of unfinished motion and chaos while sill pulsing to a click. Ideal for action.

This whole piece is in 7/8


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## rJames (Jun 19, 2017)

One thing I like about 7/8 is the ability to put accents almost anywhere and they feel like they are meant to be. Take the advice above 2-2-3 or you can do 2-3-2 or 3-2-2 but the rhythm starts to sound the same unless you have a bar accent. 
For that push accent the final 2 then 3 then 4 beats to drive it to the next bar. Then randomly put a big accent anywhere in the bar and it sounds like it belongs there. You can also break up the center beat...accent 3+ for an interesting split.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 20, 2017)

May have a go at writing a Trailer track in 7/8. Does seem an interesting measure. Ostinato's could be fun/tricky and I'm not sure about writing melodies but I'm up for a challenge.


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## jamwerks (Jun 20, 2017)

The Dies Irae of Benjamin Britten's "War Requiem" is mostly in 7/8. Great stuff!


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## fixxer49 (Jun 20, 2017)

afterlight82 said:


> simultaneous meters are also very cool...had some action music in a game last year with three time signatures going on at once that interlocked cyclically. The things one can do with sequencers that would be real headaches otherwise...


is there a DAW that facilitates multiple simultaneous time signatures?


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## alexballmusic (Jun 20, 2017)

1'11" - 1'16"


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## rJames (Jun 20, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> May have a go at writing a Trailer track in 7/8. Does seem an interesting measure. Ostinato's could be fun/tricky and I'm not sure about writing melodies but I'm up for a challenge.


Make sure you have a thru-line. Push through the 7 with continuity. More than continuity ; with purpose.


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## rJames (Jun 20, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> May have a go at writing a Trailer track in 7/8. Does seem an interesting measure. Ostinato's could be fun/tricky and I'm not sure about writing melodies but I'm up for a challenge.


I should have added...you can play 7/8 like 4/4 and 3/4 by using a through line of 2 bars of 7/8. Or you can think of it as 4/8, 4/8, 6/8. When you start to think of 7/8 in those terms, it becomes a lot easier to write within.


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## Fab (Jun 20, 2017)

IvanP said:


> Funny, pretty true!
> 
> To me 7/8 has something of a stolen pulse feel, like if a 8/8 was suddenly been cut, which adds to the urgency and need of résolution...but you can also do action in other meters
> 
> Here's an example using both 4/4 and 7/8 (second half of the piece)




Performance seems really tight too. Did you mess with the audio much or where the band just doing it like that on the day?


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## mikeh-375 (Jun 20, 2017)

jamwerks said:


> The Dies Irae of Benjamin Britten's "War Requiem" is mostly in 7/8. Great stuff!



Actually Jamwerks, it is in 7/4, says the chairman of the pedants association...
Bernsteins' Chichester Psalms, 1st mvt. is in 7/8 I think, divided as 4+3.


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## alexballmusic (Jun 20, 2017)

Good example of 7/8 in film as a reference:


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## fixxer49 (Jun 21, 2017)

fixxer49 said:


> is there a DAW that facilitates multiple simultaneous time signatures?


Bump. is this possible in any current DAW? (not counting the sibelius workaround of entering additional time signatures in as text)


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 21, 2017)

Ableton may be able to do it in session mode. Maschine also may be able to do it.


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## Marcin M (Jun 21, 2017)

There's something with that 7/8 time signature and action music, for example it works perfectly in "I am the Doctor" by Murray Gold can't imagine it in another time signature


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## IvanP (Jun 21, 2017)

Fab said:


> Performance seems really tight too. Did you mess with the audio much or where the band just doing it like that on the day?



No editing done on tightness. They did a great performance that day...we recorded it in less than 25 minutes


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## IvanP (Jun 21, 2017)

mcalis said:


> This is an absolutely astounding piece. Very well written! Since your username is IvanP, I am going to guess you're the one who wrote this? If so, great job! This is going straight into my favourites!
> 
> Apologies for going off topic for a second, but I just had to mention how great that piece is!


 
Thanks!! Yes, that's my piece and me conducting it,

Thks a lot for your kind words!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2017)

Time signatures certainly don't have to stay in the same odd or even meter throughout! You can add or subtract beats organically, in fact that should be water under the bridge for film scoring, no?

A cool technique I learned for over-the-bar phrases in, say, 4/4 - I think it might have been at a Joe Porcaro drum clinic when I studied at Cal State Northridge in 1975? - is to subdivide them into odd meters. So your 16 beats (4 x 4/4) could be 7/4 + 7/4 + 2/4, or 5/4 + 5/4 + 3/4 + 3/4, etc.

Anything to get away from tedious emphasis on downbeats - a tendency to be hyper-aware of with odd meters especially.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2017)

^ It was Joe Porcaro, the more I think of it, and he was every bit as awesome as his late son.

He was talking about jazz drum solos, but it's not limited to that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 21, 2017)

The real fun is with polyrhythms.


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## Rohann (Jun 21, 2017)

It's funny, I remember thinking a few times while watching films that 7/8 has almost become cliche for action scenes and yet can't think of an example.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Time signatures certainly don't have to stay in the same odd or even meter throughout! You can add or subtract beats organically, in fact that should be water under the bridge for film scoring, no?
> 
> A cool technique I learned for over-the-bar phrases in, say, 4/4 - I think it might have been at a Joe Porcaro drum clinic when I studied at Cal State Northridge in 1975? - is to subdivide them into odd meters. So your 16 beats (4 x 4/4) could be 7/4 + 7/4 + 2/4, or 5/4 + 5/4 + 3/4 + 3/4, etc.
> 
> Anything to get away from tedious emphasis on downbeats - a tendency to be hyper-aware of with odd meters especially.


Speaking of messing with downbeats, I have to say that my prior experience with playing metal and progressive rock guitar has made my understanding of this far easier, fantastic world to learn from:
Re: messing with downbeats:


Or, fun subdivisions that are (secretly) in 4:


Or just messing around with time signatures in general (like _really_ messing with time signatures):


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