# Athens burns...



## Niah (Feb 13, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9FLQxMYiI4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6OCIn1QArw


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## nikolas (Feb 13, 2012)

Well... I was wondering if such a thread would come into VI... And here it is...

If you want any first hand news... turn here... 

_________________

It's ugly, not as ugly as they want it to appear (thus yes Athens got scorched last night), but there was a huge gathering of peaceful people around the parliament...

The measures come off so harsh because:
a. There's absolutely no idea for development.
b. It appears that the politicians keep getting richer and there's no plan to catch all those who are getting hugely richer on the backs of the rest of the world.
c. they are fucking harsh... Most people have lost around 40% of their income at the best case scenario, including pensioners and other low income people.

On the other hand... there doesn't seem to be another way to solve the problem: Greece is no longer producing anything and even if we go back to drachmas, we still won't be able to buy anything... I mean how will I be able to buy LASS 3 (Got 2 already) when 1 $ = 10000 drachmas or something like that? For some people this may not be a problem since they either have money abroad, or they don't care to buy from abroad but for many others it is a problem...


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## synergy543 (Feb 13, 2012)

So Nikolas, are you agreeing with the dire analysis in Niah's second link? A Pyrrhic victory?

From the papers here, I was under the impression that a solution was on hand. The video protrays such a different POV.


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## Niah (Feb 13, 2012)

synergy543 @ Mon Feb 13 said:


> From the papers here, I was under the impression that a solution was on hand. The video protrays such a different POV.



Nikolas has pretty much answered your question. These austerityy measures that have been pushed for quite some time in greece and other countries as well (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, etc...) have only showed us that they are not an effective solution, particulary when only the lower classes are affected by these austerity measures. The working class are the only ones who have been forced to pay for the mistakes and reckless behaviour that the few have comitted in the past. This is the main reason why there has been so many riots, strikes and conflicts with the police.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2012)

My daughter is supposed to go on a trip to Greece and Italy at the end of the school year (her high school graduation present). I'm not at all sure about that right now.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2012)

And by the way this is why you can't use instinct when it comes to macroeconomics. Intuitively you'd think that cutting back on government spending would save money, but the exact reverse is what happens. It's failing in all the PIIGS countries, in the UK, and it failed every time it was tried - including when Hoover tried it during the Great Depression.

That's the main reason I keep saying that the Republican party is the biggest problem facing the US. Almost by definition, the people who are most hurt by government cutbacks aren't the richest people. But even if that weren't true, austerity simply doesn't work. The time to cut back is when cuts can be compensated for by lowering interest rates. Right now they can't be lowered any farther, so austerity just hurts the economy.

Unfortunately Greece is in a really bad situation, and the longer it goes on the worse it gets.


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 13, 2012)

I was in Athens a year and a half ago during the riots. We were a mile or so from Syntagma Square. The only effect that I experienced was the sound of some people marching past the hotel for five minutes or so. As long as her hotel isn't right downtown, she should be perfectly safe.

Yes, the currency situation might change, but as long as she has Euros and a plane ticket, people will accept her money and she'll be able to leave on schedule.

Be careful of the cab drivers though. I got ripped off on the way to the airport. I gave the driver a 100E note and he turned around with a 10E note in his hand saying I gave him the wrong amount. When I reacted, it was clear he had a plan if I complained. I paid him off. Now, when I have bags in the trunk, I get my bags and then pay where I can see the driver face to face. Lesson learned.

Overall, I found the Greek people to be friendly in a neutral way. Strangers didn't treat me like a new, best friend, but nobody was unfriendly either. The cab driver was a bit too friendly, but he was just working his confidence game.

That said, I enjoyed Madrid much more than Athens. The history isn't ancient, but the city was really wonderful and clean. The museums are world class. Also, I found the people to be more outgoing and positive. Their riots happened the week after I left...

As always, riots are localized in time and space. Stay away from Parliament at night and it will be no problem.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 13, 2012)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Feb 13 said:


> Be careful of the cab drivers though. I got ripped off on the way to the airport. I gave the driver a 100E note and he turned around with a 10E note in his hand saying I gave him the wrong amount. When I reacted, it was clear he had a plan if I complained. I paid him off. Now, when I have bags in the trunk, I get my bags and then pay where I can see the driver face to face. Lesson learned.



I haven't been to Athens but last summer I went to Rome and learned to get in real cabs next time. From the airport to my hotel cost me 200 euros.


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 13, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Feb 13 said:


> And by the way this is why you can't use instinct when it comes to macroeconomics. Intuitively you'd think that cutting back on government spending would save money, but the exact reverse is what happens.



That's because when a government at any level cuts back, thus creating an unemployment pool, there has to be enough small to large growing businesses who can hire them to compensate for the downsizing.


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## snowleopard (Feb 13, 2012)

Nikolas - Has there been any discussion at all in Greece of a default? I know we touched on this before here at VI, but I think as Niah noted, austerity measures aren't going to work, they're going to guarantee stagnancy for years, and the working poor will suffer the most. 

For those unsure of what I'm saying, I'm suggesting Greece default on their loans/bonds, or agree to some sort of restructuring as such. This isn't as radical as it sounds. Argentina did it rather successfully in the past. It's rough, and many people will get hurt and projects won't get finished. But it leaves a very open door to restructuring and potential growth.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 13, 2012)

Peter - that's right.

Jon, I think the situation in Greece has deteriorated a lot. Also, I think it's different for big strong burly men like you and for a 17-year-old girl and other kids who just graduated high school.

Taxis are the same in many cities. We got taken advantage of when we hired a bootleg cab in New York - and my wife is a savvy native NYer, not some spaced out laid back new age Californian like me.


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## JohnG (Feb 13, 2012)

snowleopard @ 13th February 2012 said:


> I'm suggesting Greece default on their loans/bonds, or agree to some sort of restructuring as such. This isn't as radical as it sounds. Argentina did it rather successfully in the past....



Greece already IS defaulting (though they are studiously avoiding calling it that because of the credit default swap market). I don't think one can honestly call a 50% haircut on sovereign debt something other than a default, even if it's described as "voluntary." The question is whether the default is orderly (with the austerity measures being put in place and new money coming from the EU) or a total meltdown, which would be a total, unmitigated Armageddon for everyone including poor people and pensioners. An Economist article here:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwo ... one-crisis

I don't think anything is worth a disorderly default, miserable though the austerity measures are. I just hope that they won't end up with a disorderly default after all.

It's true that Argentina defaulted and today is perceived to have been much better off. But the key difference is that Argentina had its own currency that could be devalued. Greece doesn't. Also, people now might overlook the hideous initial impact of the default on average citizens whose salaries and savings were denominated in pesos, not dollars. Because of the currency devaluation the value of savings plummeted 75-80% and the purchasing power for those on pensions or fixed salaries fell by the same proportion. This was worsened because Argentina imported many items whose price shot up; I assume Greece would face the same thing. Today, the default is perceived generally to have worked, though some claims are still being pursued aggressively http://www.economist.com/node/21533453


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## Hannes_F (Feb 14, 2012)

Re the second video: The overall tendency of the people that I am talking to in Germany is that although everybody knows that it costs money we should still try to get over the current crisis. If your brother falls into the water you try to help him into the boat again, right? The problem only is how to help in a sustainable way, that is not very clear.

I tend to mistrust political advice given by investment advisors in this situation because I don't know whether they eventually would personally earn in the case of a clash, so they might have a hidden agenda.


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## Niah (Feb 14, 2012)

And now in typical Alex Jones fashion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR5m-u0nYX4


EDIT: I've changed the term "american" to "Alex Jones" to better illustrate the delivery of Max Keiser in this video.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 14, 2012)

Now I finally understand.

A decade ago or so me and a couple of other scientists tried to get EU funds for a research facility where I live. One imperative condition of it was that at least one third of the budget had to go to an institutional partner in a country like Greece or Portugal. That way incredible sums flowed into those countries. Not credits, real money, and lots and lots of it.

We thought it would help but now I finally understand that we did all of it just for our own benefit and this was all just a plan to establish the 4th reich. Beat zem up, ze dirty Zermans!


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## JohnG (Feb 14, 2012)

First, I am offended at the use of terms from the Holocaust to describe financial machinations.

Second, the guy's logic and manner make him seem unhinged.

Hardly the "American" or any other nation's view, I'd say.


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## Niah (Feb 14, 2012)

JohnG @ Tue Feb 14 said:


> First, I am offended at the use of terms from the Holocaust to describe financial machinations.
> 
> Second, the guy's logic and manner make him seem unhinged.
> 
> Hardly the "American" or any other nation's view, I'd say.



Anyone with a brain but mostly people from germany would be offended by the use of such terms, including that this represents the "IV Reich" and that the greeks are the "new jews". It is true that Angela Merkel has been running the show alongside Nicolas Sarkozy but it's no reason to go that far...

Now when I used the term "American" in my post it wasn't to point out that I think that this represents the "american" perspective or the opinion of a nation. It was basically a reference to what has become the trademark of most of the talking heads, political commentary and news shows in american media. 

Anyway Brian Eno explains it so much better than me: 8) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm36ZxJboUI

Ill edit my post though so others don't get the wrong idea.


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## JohnG (Feb 14, 2012)

ok -- didn't mean to overreact to you Niah. Really hated what the guy said, however.


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## nikolas (Feb 14, 2012)

Ok... Some things to agree:

1. There isn't any real danger if you go in Greece, unless you're idiotic enough to see a mob of 100,000-800,000 (reports of numbers differ greatly) and join them. Or you see a burning building and don't run off. I mean yes, some people have get hurt, but I don't think anyone was 100% innocent, like taking a stroll in Syntagma square while the riots took place...

2. Taxi owners and drivers are kinda scummy... Yes they will steal your money, etc... Airport to central Athens should be 30 euros or something, not 100!!! 

_______________

The sad truth is that, as opposed to Argentina, Greece does NOT produce anything but services (and expensive ones in fact).

If we do default we won't be able to pay the loans. Which is no biggy if you ask me, but no money means that Greek civil workers won't get paid either, so the whole system will soon fall. So we will be forced to return to a different currency with all the devaluation that will follow.

And this would be fine if we could sustain ourselves alone, but we can't! We don't have much to use. We don't have anything technological, we don't have medicine, etc...

So it IS a problem (defaulting). 

The other side of the problem is that simply the austerity measure asked from the Greeks are ridiculous and have not been working for a long time now... Not only because Greece's incompetence to follow orders and rules (from the IMF for example), but because they were too harsh to be applied in such a short time!

_____________________________

On a personal view:

I find that the Greek crisis is NOT the same as the crisis with the other countries. Greeks are not spending, do not have huge loans, or tons of credit cards. UK was far worst than us in that account. 

The same measures cannot work with Greece. we ARE working, VERY hard and get paid very little for the work we do. Reducing salaries and pensions won't do any good, nor will raising VAT and tax. 

We need to find ways to:
a. produce something other than services, sweat and working hours.
b. Find ways to battle this corruption which seems to be in our DNA (which is excusable actually. A company will pay around 42% to taxes in Greece whereas it will pay 9% in FYROM (!!!!) This means that the company should either be in FYROM or find ways to crook it's way to paying less in taxes. Otherwise it's ridiculous to run a business in Greece).
c. Get those who are trying to earn from this crisis. The amount of money gone abroad in the past 2 years is HUGE (we're talking about tens of billions of euros here...). Grab that, fine that and you're half out of the debt...
d. Get the tax evaders. It has been calculated that people (in general) owe some 43,000,000,000 euros in taxes. Some people were charged with oweing 5,000,000 euros in VAT (which means that they must've had 25,000,000 in their hands since it's VAT, right?) and never paid.
e. Find a way to make civil workers work honestly for their paycheck. There's a big % of civil workers who are not working and still get paid. And they can't get fired! So each elections each party will promise to hire more civil workers (sure pay for the next 30 years) and their numbers are now enormous (around 1,300,000 civil workers... :D).

Ok... I might be off with the numbers, but you get the idea I trust.


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## Niah (Feb 14, 2012)

JohnG @ Tue Feb 14 said:


> ok -- didn't mean to overreact to you Niah. Really hated what the guy said, however.



No worries JohnG I didn't take it that way at all. In fact I'm glad you posted because on hindsight the use of the term "american" might be taken the wrong way by other members and besides "Alex Jones" is a much better description for this guy's style 8)...


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## George Caplan (Feb 15, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Mon Feb 13 said:


> I haven't been to Athens but last summer I went to Rome and learned to get in real cabs next time. From the airport to my hotel cost me 200 euros.



:lol: :lol: :lol: thats fantastic. and thats the type of shit they're in btw.

all this is obvious from day one to anybody that can think and walk at the same time. what will happen will be a communist government and that is probably the best way for them to go. the whole deal will now topple very soon. the bond traders will pull. the other countries will default and the euro will come to an end. this could of and should of been dealt with over 2 years ago. if you were working in the industry you would know. the issues that will follow on from this are almost too horrendous to talk about. for instance - how many oil producers are going to want drachmas? or punts? or escudos? how they going to pay pensions? and on and on.

the two people that are totally at fault run germany and france. the french banks will take enormous losses on this. the us exposure is very low. the german exposure is bad and the uk exposure i think is about 9 billion. france is about 41 billion. go figure. there is no such place as europe. if europe was an ariel photo of a golf course someone would have drawn a big white line round the perimeter and written GUR in the middle of it. anyone thinking they can just go somewhere else and get benefits and bailouts is in for a serious awakening. anyone that have already gone somewhere else in the so called european union maybe in for a shock if the whole deal folds.

:lol: 200 euros is about $263. my whole point months ago about the euro and the comparative value country to country in the euro mess. but i told you all this over a year ago. :lol: :lol: :lol:


this british politician understood what was happening 5 years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq_6e1A7gzA


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## rayinstirling (Feb 15, 2012)

It's fairly straightforward.
None of us particularly want to pay our taxes and complain about it being too much.
In Greece nobody pays tax other than a brown envelope here and there to the appropriate tax office employee.
The really rich in all countries have off-shore accounts to salt the money away to.

It's not rocket science is it?

Those responsible for devising and conducting these scams and obviously including their clients should be lined up and..............you know what.
It's truly ridiculous that multi millionaires can end up with personal tax bills of less than their house maids.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 15, 2012)

Seems like Honduras isn't content with being left out of all the burning..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17038259


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 15, 2012)

Ray, actually what happened is not that straightforward.

The big issue is the Euro. People thought investments in any Eurozone country would be equally sound just because they were all on the Euro. All the money stopped flowing in when the world collapsed, and you're seeing the results.


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## snowleopard (Feb 15, 2012)

No, not that straight forward, but he does bring up a good point about taxes, and who gets away with not paying them. He just left out the part of plutocracy, akin to the good ol' US of A today. Unless of course you think otherwise and are a "liberal". :wink: 



George Caplan @ Wed Feb 15 said:


> What will happen will be a communist government and that is probably the best way for them to go. the whole deal will now topple very soon. the bond traders will pull. the other countries will default and the euro will come to an end. this could of and should of been dealt with over 2 years ago.


There's so much in your post, it's hard to tell where you're being cynical, and not. I think there's definitely an argument to be made that there is so much kleptocracy that's happened in Greece that if they detach from the Euro, the bonds default and we see a real collapse that some form of collectivist government could take hold. I really doubt they'd call it communism, but it's a fascinating thought, to say the least.


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## JohnG (Feb 15, 2012)

It will be communism all right, of a sort anyway; the kind where everyone is equally poor and starving and freezing in winter.


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## jleckie (Feb 16, 2012)

Its all crumb;ing. ALL of it. Take hold people. Prepare yourselves.


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## George Caplan (Feb 16, 2012)

snowleopard @ Wed Feb 15 said:


> There's so much in your post, it's hard to tell where you're being cynical, and not.



theres nothing in my post you haven't heard a thousand times already either on the news or the papers. when youve worked for GS for over 25 years and then become a private client broker/trader you can trust me on one thing. you become cynical. when you retire you can say what you like. people out there have no idea and i cant stress to you enough that the whole deal was about lehmans. i dont think most people still get that. the lehmans crash was everything. an immense shock even to people in the trade. should never have been allowed to happen. you can get pretty cynical about that.

the trouble with europe is its become de personalized. all the talk is about countries and its easy to forget actual people walking the streets. real people with real problems that trusted their respective governments and didnt or dont understand properly whats happened. that is an emotive point and generally in the financial districts of the world emotional means nothing. they get emotive about good or bad trades. not people and theres a reason for that which you can easily work out of you think about it. financial positions are not moral ones. they happen whether you get into a position or not.

on the other side there are quite few people out there in these badly affected countries that welcome this for the benefit of their particular politics. usually if not always the left side. they are just as bad if not worse than the politicians that let down the ordinary people and if they took power you would end up with mass destruction and civil war. once youve known a reasonable standard of living and that gets taken away then all hell can break loose.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 16, 2012)

Governments?

In Greece maybe. But Spain had a budget surplus before the crash.


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## snowleopard (Feb 23, 2012)

George Caplan @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> I cant stress to you enough that the whole deal was about Lehman. I dont think most people still get that. the Lehmans crash was everything. an immense shock even to people in the trade. should never have been allowed to happen. You can get pretty cynical about that.


Criticize him for his moral lapses, but Eliot Spitzer completely nails it here, and makes a reference to Lehman that you're talking about. 


Personally I think Spitzer is absolutely brilliant, and I wish he would get back into the political fray. Enough time has passed, and his _mea culpa_ held, that I think he could get elected to quite a few offices about now. If Marion Barry could come back...

As to Greece, I do believe it's quite possible these latest measures will fail, as I see nothing to indicate it will address the layers of corruption mentioned here and elsewhere. It's quite possible they will drop out of the Euro, the whole Eurozone will shrink, and Greece elects a hard-line socialist government merging the Panhellenic and the SEK (which has quietly grown to the 2nd largest European IST next to that in Britian), this could lead to something akin to what Venezuela did for example. But where as Venezuela has oil, and as kooky as he is Chavez is he is a leader, Greece has no oil, and no Chavez (that I know of) to step up. But total Soviet-style communism? I don't see that. 

I'm honestly not enlightened enough to know if this will truly come to fruition. But from what I can study, it seems like it's definitely possible.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 24, 2012)

Hmm ... I must live in a different europe than some of you observe. Visited Rome three weeks ago with my wife and used a preordered shuttle service from the airport that was EUR 25 per person. There would also have been the possibility of pre-buying a taxi voucher for 60 EUR.

Food was excellent and prices moderate at the places that we visited, something like 8 EUR for really good pizza or pasta.

As I already said I don't trust any (ex)bankers if they offer political opinion. Some of them have vested interests which is only natural. If it fits their purpose they create a culture of fear. But what we need is to stay reasonable in order to see and use our chances.

Since corruption seems to be a major problem of Greece that does more harm to them than benefit it can only be targeted with pressure from two sides - from outside by other EU governments and from inside by the people, or else the evading will go on for ever. It should be noted that the effort of Greece has been enormous in the last two years and there is also first success. What we witness could evolve into an ethical self-purification process and if they make that happen then kudos to Greece.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 24, 2012)

snowleopard @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> George Caplan @ Thu Feb 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I cant stress to you enough that the whole deal was about Lehman. I dont think most people still get that. the Lehmans crash was everything. an immense shock even to people in the trade. should never have been allowed to happen. You can get pretty cynical about that.
> ...




I live in New York State (obviously) and I voted for Elliot Spitzer. I agree that he's brilliant. That said, I hope he never darkens my political door again. 

When a pol is so brilliant he thinks he's above the law, he takes stupid risks in his arrogance-that's nothing new. The sin is getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar, and as a former prosecutor, Elliot shouldn't have been availing himself of the services of prostitutes, as most of prostitution is controlled by organized crime. He shouldn't have been violating the Mann act. He shouldn't have been swinging his dick around and using the resources of his office in questionable ways to
go after a political enemy, Joe Bruno. All in all, he was fortunate to be allowed to crawl away with his tail between his legs, dragging his hubris behind him.

I'm happy enough to enjoy his incisive punditry, but I wouldn't want him for dogcatcher. He violated the trust of hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers who eagerly voted him into office.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 24, 2012)

jleckie @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> Its all crumb;ing. ALL of it. Take hold people. Prepare yourselves.



Wait-didn't it all crumble in the U.S 4 years ago? What is it, the snake without a head still writhing as it goes through its death throes?

Someone is always screaming that the sky is falling. Watch CNBC on any given day, you'll see some dude moaning about DOW 6,000 within a year.Yes, Europe is bad, but were already seeing that the inter-connectivity of global markets make it necessary for everyone to weigh in and prop up others. Sadly though, I do agree it's probably too late for Greece, mostly for the reasons that Nikolas has described.They would have to find huge gold reserves in the Aegean to have a chance,


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## George Caplan (Feb 24, 2012)

snowleopard @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> George Caplan @ Thu Feb 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I cant stress to you enough that the whole deal was about Lehman. I dont think most people still get that. the Lehmans crash was everything. an immense shock even to people in the trade. should never have been allowed to happen. You can get pretty cynical about that.
> ...



yes eliot is extremely articulate albeit that was 3 years ago and its a slightly different landscape today. incidentally i dont worry about personal lives and problems unless its mass homicide so good luck to eliot.

im not absolutely convinced however or i havent convinced myself that lehmans was allowed to fail simply to show the world that a government will let you fail as a lesson to others. 80 billion to aig because they messed around with credit default swaps and then what? thats slightly ridiculous and i dont think gs take that view either.

this thing about greece and corruption is a side show. all of that is just blurring the real issue today. the real issue yesterday may well have been corruption and taxation therein. but today the issue is 130 billion euros on a bail. when do they come back for more? will they default? when they default will there be mass contagion? which countries will then use the default as an excuse to exit? 

you see where this keeps going? you ask questions about euro leaders in particular germany and france. how many more summits do you think youre gonna need to make this work? that would be my first question.

yes gold and gold reserves. thats a moot point at the moment. why? theoretically because should the europeans get a mass walkout or contagion then there could be a huge gold sell off. brings the price per ounce down rapidly. just recently over the few years gold and gold investments (blackrock g&g immediately springs to mind) have been doing well on the back of yes you guessed it....the fact that theres a problem in euroland and stocks seem risky.


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## rayinstirling (Feb 24, 2012)

George Caplan @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> this thing about greece and corruption is a side show. all of that is just blurring the real issue today.



Now let me think, a person of what nationality would make a comment like this?


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## germancomponist (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm very sorry for the Greek people. They are victims of the speculators. 

The European rescue packages are nothing more than bailouts for the banks. The banks are the winners! And the banks long reign over Europe!

Very sadly!


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## snowleopard (Feb 24, 2012)

NY may not want Spitzer, but I'll take him in DC where he can trade punches with the crooks. Foolish of him to screw a hooker, but I'll take that over someone trying to screw me out of everything.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 24, 2012)

I have no idea whatsoever whether or not NY wants Spitzer. What I know is that *I* don't want Spitzer, and if you get him in DC, beware- because hubris forgiven is generally hubris retained. 

I don't want John Edwards either. What doth it profit a man to gain the world and lose his shit? More to the point, what doth it profit us?


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 24, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> Hmm ... I must live in a different europe than some of you observe. Visited Rome three weeks ago with my wife and used a preordered shuttle service from the airport that was EUR 25 per person. There would also have been the possibility of pre-buying a taxi voucher for 60 EUR...



I've traveled by taxi many times in Europe, Japan, the US and a couple of times in Australia - and even Sao Paulo - without problems. The first time I ever got conned by a cab driver was to the airport in Athens. It was an early morning flight. The (nice, business) hotel near the Parthenon called the cab that picked me up at 4am. First, the meter must have been rigged. He charged me what the device said - and took another 90 Euros with his bill-swap trick. The scariest thing was when I hesitated. He made a gleefully evil smile and said a long, "Yessss?" It was clear that he knew exactly what he would do if I questioned him - and he was looking forward to doing it.

It was a different Europe than I know as well!

Everybody else I met in Athens was neutral to positive. The biggest problem that I saw was the trash and decay. The Olympic area was heartbreaking. While taking mid-day photos a security guard told me to leave. Madrid was the exact opposite - it's a spotless, beautifully maintained city. They might also pay a lot to government workers, but the government workers in Madrid provide an excellent, tangible service.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 24, 2012)

This cab driver thing flummoxes me a bit. Maybe it's my suspicious nature. 

Whenever I take a taxi, I ask in advance how much it will cost. If the driver say's "it depends" I ask him to approximate. If the fee at the end is substantially more than the estimate, I refuse to pay it, or a tip, until an accomodation is reached. If someone is going to threaten me to get their fee, I say have at it or I suggest we call a cop in.


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## Niah (Feb 24, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg1PBRwbpXE


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 24, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> ...If someone is going to threaten me to get their fee, I say have at it or I suggest we call a cop in.



Don't forget that you live in the land of the taxi and are on your home turf. I only take cabs a few times a year when I travel, and was in a foreign country with jetlag at 4am. Having never, ever had a problem, I wasn't expecting to get scammed.

You make a good point though - I need to ask how much I should expect to pay. 

But no way I would have challenged him. I'd rather lose the money than miss my flight home. And the last thing I'd want to do is play the he-said/he-said game with him telling his brother-in-law cop to arrest me for shorting him! 

I lost the 90E, but made the flight, and the rest was reimbursed from the expense report. But I left Athens with a bad taste.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm sure you're right from a practical standpoint, and yes, we have many taxis here, but I was talking about being traveling.. I find it a good rule of thumb to ask the price in advance.

The other part-i guess after 34 years in Manhattan, my DNA couldn't bear being cheated like that without a dust-up :wink:


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 24, 2012)

I know what you mean about Manhattan. I'll never forget when a young woman was crossing the street with a stroller and an aggressive taxi driver came to the intersection and got too close for her comfort. They stayed there for a good minute cussing each other out with language that would make a sailor blush. Even women with strollers act that way? 

By contrast, there's a joke about a traffic study where a car would sit at a green light in different cities and time how long it took for people to honk. They had to abandon the study in Portland because after a couple of cycles with no honking, people would walk up to the driver to see if they needed assistance.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 24, 2012)

JonFairhurst @ Sat Feb 25 said:


> I know what you mean about Manhattan. I'll never forget when a young woman was crossing the street with a stroller and an aggressive taxi driver came to the intersection and got too close for her comfort. They stayed there for a good minute cussing each other out with language that would make a sailor blush. Even women with strollers act that way?
> 
> By contrast, there's a joke about a traffic study where a car would sit at a green light in different cities and time how long it took for people to honk. They had to abandon the study in Portland because after a couple of cycles with no honking, people would walk up to the driver to see if they needed assistance.



I grew up in Binghamton, NY, which is a lot more like Portland than New York City, i'd reckon-so I've seen both sides.

What is often perceived as rudeness in Manhattan is the reaction of locals when visitors clog up the general movement of the city. When you put two million people in 5 miles, anything that clogs up the works tends to be frustrating to people trying to get to work or through traffic or onto public transportation.

That said, I've seen 50 people stop to help someone who's fallen. This is anything but a one dimensional town. I love the people of New York. I'm sure Portland is lovely. Apples, oranges.


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## chimuelo (Feb 24, 2012)

They don't use their brakes in Manhattan they use their horns... :mrgreen:


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 25, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Fri Feb 24 said:


> What is often perceived as rudeness in Manhattan is the reaction of locals when visitors clog up the general movement of the city.



I don't think the woman with the stroller was a visitor. She was toe to toe with the taxi driver. At that moment, traffic was light. 

One "interesting" taxi moment was in about 1990 when there were four of us in a cab on the way to ABC during morning rush hour. We were in suits. A young woman bumps into the side of the cab and falls to the ground. A stranger walks up and says he "saw the whole thing." The woman gets up and demands the driver's license. Traffic clears and the driver floors it. Us visitors had eyes the size of saucers. 

But the reality is that the other 999 people on the block were minding their own business. We remember the outliers.

Of course, there isn't a day in NYC when you *don't* see an outlier.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 25, 2012)

Street theater rocks. 24/7/365. I'm never bored.


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## chimuelo (Feb 25, 2012)

The truth is so dilluted now and so many fingers pointing that I no longer believe any of the " authorities " until I see a Published book or document.
Publishers fear lawsuits, this is why the Authors have editors, fact checkers and then the, publishers still won't take somebodys' word on a product and do their own investigating journalism ( a thing of the past ).
So these talking heads and bloggers can do all of the Youtube and blogging they want, as we know for a fact that the Internet is the largest source of information/disinformation ever created.
Even Wiki is a joke, but taken as the truth.
A Bassist I work with on occasion is a famous Rock God of the '80's and we get a kick out of how Wiki has him recording on one label with a group, at the same time he was under contract at Capital Records.
Which I am quite sure would have sued him as back then Labels were quite powerful as their private security was the RIAA.
But we have a good laugh over their incorrect information. Plus these days he is signed with a Label from Italy, and Wiki hasn;t even updated their " accurate " accumulation of data.
So until a Book comes out where there's some accountability, you can pick the usual 2 choices of the left/right arm of our elite protectors, but at the end of the day there's a Brain that tells which arm to move and when...


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## NYC Composer (Feb 25, 2012)

It's frightening, this targeted dissemination of false information about Italian-signed 80's bass players. I think it's a plot, hatched by an evil consortium of fanatics who are influenced by Saul Alinsky and Ayn Rand, plotting together from the grave.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 25, 2012)

Nikolas-if you're still reading this thread, how are things going at present?


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## chimuelo (Feb 25, 2012)

Yes and Margeret Sanger too while were at it..... :mrgreen: 
But even better was the photoshop of a once great band turned into another conspiracy theory.... /\~O


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## Hannes_F (Feb 27, 2012)

Germany's parliament has accredited the second payment to Greece today with 496 vs. 96 voices.

Friends, don't let the professional alarmists and naysayers impress you too much. Culture of fear is a good business for some people that would not have anything else to do if it did not exist.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 27, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Mon Feb 27 said:


> Germany's parliament has accredited the second payment to Greece today with 496 vs. 96 voices.
> 
> Friends, don't let the professional alarmists and naysayers impress you too much. Culture of fear is a good business for some people that would not have anything else to do if it did not exist.



Outstanding point. Too many people make a living declaring daily that the sky is falling.


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 27, 2012)

In 2008, a friends of mine proudly told me he had been predicting the crash for 20 years.

On an annual basis he were wrong 95% of the time. Monthly, he was wrong 99.4% of the time!

Nothing worse than a gleeful pessimist.


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## Nostradamus (Feb 27, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Mon Feb 27 said:


> Germany's parliament has accredited the second payment to Greece today with 496 vs. 96 voices.
> 
> Friends, don't let the professional alarmists and naysayers impress you too much. Culture of fear is a good business for some people that would not have anything else to do if it did not exist.



So what? Greece will fall because the new payment won't resolve their crisis. Neither the Greek general public nor the Greek economy will see any of this money. Due to the forced austerity policy the economy is breaking down. If you see the realities you'll admit that the European policy, leaded by Merkel, will end up in a disaster.

I'd even go further and claim that the whole system of capitalism and our economical system as a whole has some serious problems. Even Germany, with its AAA rating, is not able to repay its debts. A growing part of our BIP has to be used to pay interest (NOT debts!) while our mountain of debt is still growing.

It's just a matter of time when this shit flies apart.


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## Niah (Feb 27, 2012)

Hannes_F @ Mon Feb 27 said:


> Germany's parliament has accredited the second payment to Greece today with 496 vs. 96 voices.
> 
> Friends, don't let the professional alarmists and naysayers impress you too much. Culture of fear is a good business for some people that would not have anything else to do if it did not exist.



I'm sorry Hannes but I fail to see this as good news. It seems like everything we have seen as far, more ways to sink an already sinking ship.


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 27, 2012)

I disagree Niah.

A sinking ship vanishes from the horizon and then it's over. Greece and the Greek people will not vanish.

I don't know if this will turn into a long-term series of bailouts, if the Greek economy will slowly turn around, if Greece will exit the EU - or if the Turkey will invade and take over the debt(!)

In the US in late 2008, the banks were failing, the auto industry was doomed, and jobs were being lost at record rates. Yes, it looked bleak. We haven't yet recovered, but the worst predictions didn't come close to true.

The one thing we can predict: things will change.


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## chimuelo (Feb 27, 2012)

Why not just give them the entire promised amount...?
It's almost af if Father is giving son a partial allowance based on his recent behavior....
Then again I could be reading this wrong.
But one thing is certain, the people always suffer when the elites gamble and lose.
We see it in Greece, and we see it here at home.
If they would only mange our money as well as they do their own personal insider tips....................ooops........I meant accounts.


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## germancomponist (Feb 27, 2012)

Sorry, this is only in german, but maybe someone can translate this sadly truth?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvT5PAwWNK8&feature=uploademail


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## NYC Composer (Feb 27, 2012)

Nostradamus @ Mon Feb 27 said:


> Hannes_F @ Mon Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Germany's parliament has accredited the second payment to Greece today with 496 vs. 96 voices.
> ...



If I understand you correctly, you're saying that both socialism and capitalism are failed economic models. We already know that Soviet-style Communism is a disaster. I would volunteer as Emperor, but it's so hard to find good slaves these days.

Anyway-so....what do you propose, or are you simply enlightening us about the conflagration to come?


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## Niah (Feb 27, 2012)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Feb 27 said:


> I disagree Niah.
> 
> A sinking ship vanishes from the horizon and then it's over. Greece and the Greek people will not vanish.
> 
> ...



Of course Greece and the Greek people will not vanish, I was talking about the greek economy that has been on a downward spiral for several years and these austerity measures as well as bailouts haven't worked and will most likely do more harm than good and create more debt.

Turkey will not enter the EU as long as they still have the death penalty.

And you just cannot compare the US to Greece, the US can easily recover from the crisis while Greece, which is a country that doesn't produce much or anything at all (tourism isn't enough), I seriously have my doubts that will recover if other alternatives are not pursued.

Plus much like with other euro countries such as Spain and Portugal a whole generation of highly-qualified youngters with master-degrees are not finding work and therefor are leaving their home countries in search of the conditions they need to have a decent life and build a family.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.


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## Niah (Feb 28, 2012)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/25/us-eurozone-germany-greece-idUSTRE81O0F120120225 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/ ... F120120225)


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## Nostradamus (Feb 28, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon Feb 27 said:


> If I understand you correctly, you're saying that both socialism and capitalism are failed economic models. We already know that Soviet-style Communism is a disaster. I would volunteer as Emperor, but it's so hard to find good slaves these days.
> 
> Anyway-so....what do you propose, or are you simply enlightening us about the conflagration to come?



Oh, I didn't talk about socialism. But our western form of predatory capitalism has some systematic failures. These failures (e.g. the compound interest, creation of financial bubbles ...) leads to a huge concentration of richness and, simultaneously, to a growing mass poverty. At the same time the national debt is growing and growing. No developed country is now able to repay their national debts.Never. It's impossible. Due to the compound interest the financial burden to pay only for the interest is growing also. We are caught into a spiraling dept.

The result is that this system will crash sooner or later. There are some possible solutions after a crash:

- a currency reform
- high taxes for the rich (a famous example is the American new deal (1933 - 1936). It's also a good example why crashes like that will repeat)
- a significant hair cut to lower the burden caused by debts

The important question is whether or not this inevitable crash is accompanied by riots and violance. Greece could be a foretaste. The riots in Birmingham could be a foretaste as well as the violence around Paris a few years ago. Every rich person needs somebody to be poor (considered the huge richness in the hands of a few they actually need much more than one to be poor) . And when there's no perspective and no chances left for the poors they will fight back. It might depend on how long this system will live until a crash. The longer, the more dangerous it could become.


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## nikolas (Feb 28, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat Feb 25 said:


> Nikolas-if you're still reading this thread, how are things going at present?


hey Larry,

Things are currently not too bad really. I mean once the voting took place and the greek parliament accepted the new deal it was all over. There's no reason to complain about something already done and agreed on.

And this is mid year... I mean the summer will come and I do think that everything will once again, go to a halt. Summer is completely slow in Greece and there's no reason that this summer will be different! Believe me! We're that idiotic some times! (perhaps not so idiotic?).

At this moment it feels that we're taking the medication to battle the virus that will kill us very soon, but fail to see the virus that started all this! And our politicians are not helping either. They are all despicable! Awful! There's not a single soul in the Greek parliament that's worth something... :( And it seems that there's nobody to take their place if we dump these 300 bastards! :(


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## chimuelo (Feb 28, 2012)

If the pass of Thermopylae fell into Communist hands the 300 and Leonidas would roll in their graves. Xerces would have succeeded 2500 years later............ >8o


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## Niah (Feb 28, 2012)

nikolas @ Tue Feb 28 said:


> At this moment it feels that we're taking the medication to battle the virus that will kill us very soon, but fail to see the virus that started all this! And our politicians are not helping either. They are all despicable! Awful! There's not a single soul in the Greek parliament that's worth something... :( And it seems that there's nobody to take their place if we dump these 300 bastards! :(



Yup, it's not really the system that is the problem but rather the people in the system. 

Anywho remember when Iceland went bankrupt? What did they do? 

http://netrightdaily.com/2011/05/icelan ... es-global/


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 28, 2012)

Iceland isn't on the Euro.

And it's hard to believe they're even thinking about joining it.


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## chimuelo (Feb 28, 2012)

The Tea Party here are all racists even though several are Black and Hispanic.... :mrgreen: 
There's actually a group of 6 freshmen Congressmen who had 1.4 Million left over in their budget and tried to have those funds applied to the deficit, but it's not allowed under current " laws " as it must go somehwere and languish for 2 years, most likely a Liberal or Conservative Bank that sponsors someone, they can invest it for 2 years and profit before it's then applied towards the deficit.

This is what drives Americans nuts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHflFFKoaNM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHflFFKo ... re=related)

Here's one of the DNCs Messengers Of God who is allowed to be a racist.
Oddly enough I couldn't find the un edited version where he used the " N " word in reference to our President.
But God works in mysterious ways.

Kudos to Icelands people. Especially from turning down Rothschilds.....sorry......I meant Barclays cash, and the Queen from the Netherlands Bank.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 28, 2012)

nikolas @ Tue Feb 28 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Nikolas-if you're still reading this thread, how are things going at present?
> ...



Good luck to you all, Nikolas-our thoughts are with you.

P.S.-I don't know of any countries who love their politicians, whether democratically elected or despots.


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## George Caplan (Feb 29, 2012)

chimuelo @ Tue Feb 28 said:


> If the pass of Thermopylae fell into Communist hands the 300 and Leonidas would roll in their graves. Xerces would have succeeded 2500 years later............ >8o



:lol: :lol: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2mjas_LID0

i think the waiter did this deliberately. if he didnt he should have.

s&p declared greece below junk bond status yesterday. cant remember the last time i saw that anywhere. now going into a loosely termed orderly default. :lol:


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## George Caplan (Feb 29, 2012)

Niah @ Mon Feb 27 said:


> And you just cannot compare the US to Greece, the US can easily recover from the crisis while Greece, which is a country that doesn't produce much or anything at all (tourism isn't enough), I seriously have my doubts that will recover if other alternatives are not pursued.



that is completely correct but only in the sense that the us has an internal market that cannot be compared to anywhere else on earth. when you hear people talking about india and china what they always forget is that 99.++++% of their population are peasants. these people are not consumers. they have no internal market to fall back on. in years to come that may happen but everyone here will be dead and buried.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 29, 2012)

I don't understand that. China has 300 million people in first-world living conditions. How is that not an internal market?

And what you're calling the internal market is the economy! The US is the world's largest economy, at least for now. Our exports aren't the biggest piece of it, but they're still pretty formidable.


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## Nostradamus (Feb 29, 2012)

George Caplan @ Wed Feb 29 said:


> Niah @ Mon Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > And you just cannot compare the US to Greece, the US can easily recover from the crisis while Greece, which is a country that doesn't produce much or anything at all (tourism isn't enough), I seriously have my doubts that will recover if other alternatives are not pursued.
> ...



Right, but you shouldn't forget that the US internal market was based on debts. There's a saying I recently read in a newspaper: the Americans were paying their Master Card debts with their Visa card. But this doesn't work anymore so it's questionable that the consume can pull the cart out. Like here in Germany the poverty in the is growing, but in the US everything is a bit more extreme.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 29, 2012)

"the US internal market was based on debts"

Yet the goods and services produced by our economy were real. The crisis is financial and financial alone. We have the resources and skill to have a booming economy; it's just a matter of putting them back to work.

And that's why I keep saying that the government should be investing like mad in order to achieve that. It doesn't matter if we go farther into debt if the economy grows faster than the deficits, i.e. if the denominator grows faster than the numerator (or keeps pace with it).

Meanwhile the poverty is partly because all the wealth is getting sucked up to the top .1%.


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## Nostradamus (Feb 29, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Feb 29 said:


> And that's why I keep saying that the government should be investing like mad in order to achieve that. It doesn't matter if we go farther into debt if the economy grows faster than the deficits, i.e. if the denominator grows faster than the numerator (or keeps pace with it).



That's an important point and the reason why Greece suffer from the German "leadership". It seems that Merkel doesn't know the simplest economical connections. For Merkel, the only solution to solve the Greece problems is to lower incomes and to save government spendings drastically. But this means to push Greece into an even deeper recession. When an economy is down you first and foremost need investments.


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## George Caplan (Feb 29, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Feb 29 said:


> I don't understand that. China has 300 million people in first-world living conditions. How is that not an internal market?



who on earth told you that? any of them with any money go to hong kong to do their shopping. china is not a consumer society. it is a manufacturing one and if that dries then youll get chaos. you cant compare china with the us in terms of a self serving consumer market.

lets see whos right about issuing more government debt. my money and its a considerable amount is still on romney.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 29, 2012)

http://www.bing.com/search?q=chinese+mi ... &sp=-1&sk=

Pick a link.

I'm sure you're right they shop in Hong Kong, but it's not like nobody there consumes anything. Did you see the riots at the Apple Store opening?


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## JonFairhurst (Feb 29, 2012)

China is a big country. They don't all travel to Hong Kong to shop.


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## chimuelo (Feb 29, 2012)

FWIW I will be going to Macau for an evil 1%'r to perform for more money than we get here.
My Travel Agent is setting up various odd day activites for me to see Hong Kong ( home of my childhood hero Bruce Lee ), and also Shanghai.
Being a retired Concrete worker and up keeper of the Hoover Dam ( where hard hats were first used and became law back in '33 ) I want to see 3 Gorges Dam on the Yangtzee, so I finally get to see our Landlord and how great that country must be.

Afterall our elites are heavily vested there, and built most of China so I feel obligated to enjoy it.
My brother has been there many times but goes to some armpit coal burning province and hates it.
I shall see first hand the NYC and Vegas of China and I am stoked.

I heard that Chinese girls that are finding new freedoms over there are asking for 600 USD per month instead of the 300 USD per month they are now paid.
China needs the AFL-CIO over there to corrupt their politicians. THey already have the Banks from Wall Street investing, so that means someone needs to ensure the profits for investment are smaller and the workers standard of living increases. We once had that trend but, well you know the rest.

Europe and the USA should take notes on their evolvement, as if they use what's best from our collective, we are sure to see the success of a progressive state, but that is all a pipe dream as the paranoid Military always wants the biggest piece of the pie.

The money that was to finsish these 5 big multi billion dollar jobs here in Vegas from former Obama supporters has gone aboroad, just like GE.
Let's face it when a Cabinet member who leads the " Jobs Council " sends an entire XRay division to CHina, that pretty much opened the doors for others to follow, even Canadas pipeline.

They love Obama in China, seriously, there are posters of him and I am told in Hong Kong the kids spray paint Graffitti images of our President and keep local inmates busy by painting over them.
Very interesting stuff.

If what I read is correct they have the 4% unemployment we use to have....
If the dollar is worth very much over there I might reture there. Mexico was the original ides, then Belize, but China is 24/7 like Vegas and over there the idea of westerners, especially the Brotha's, entertaining their upcoming class of citizens is considered a priveledge and they show it.

Jeez over here I get heckled by drunk scoundrels yelling Freebird, Merle Haggard during the Rodeo season, etc.
I am weary of Vegas. 27 years finally has gotten to me.
Before my options were dirtbag pay in Foxwood and AC, or worse yet Biloxi and Shreveport.
I like Macau.... _-)

I shall share my hypocritic experience.
Who knows, maybe they'll actually pay better for composers in film.
Hans can't run the whole world......Can he.?


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