# Reason to get VST support...?



## Puzzlefactory (Apr 27, 2017)

I always used to like using Reason, would be interesting to see how it would hold up to orchestral work. 

https://www.gearnews.com/rumour-reason-add-vst-support-last/


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 28, 2017)

Well it definitely seems to be happening. 

https://www.propellerheads.se/reaso...ontent=r95_announce&utm_campaign=r95_announce


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## Musicam (Apr 28, 2017)

Great! The partners are here! Hurray!


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## Karsten Vogt (Apr 28, 2017)

About 15 years too late. But hey, better now than never. I loved Rebirth.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 28, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> would be interesting to see how it would hold up to orchestral work.



It's way too convoluted for that.


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## garyhiebner (Apr 28, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> About 15 years too late. But hey, better now than never. I loved Rebirth.


Yeah! I can't believe it's taken this long. I left Reason, cos I had to use Rewire, and you couldn't use audio in it. So they made a big deal when you could add audio like 4 years ago, now they making a big deal about adding VSTs. Way too late.


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## higgs (Apr 28, 2017)

Finally. 

It's pretty awesome how pumped they are to be offering a feature that was available in Cool Edit Pro V 1.0. Kidding aside, I am very excited to work in Reason more frequently now. Combinators with VST, Reason's FX's & instruments, and CV...mmmmm. 

I've never crashed Reason on Mac or PC since I started using it in V2. I hope they stick the landing with this.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2017)

pretty cool!


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 28, 2017)

Just watched the video. They way they've intergrated them (containers) is the way I thought they would.


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## Michael K. Bain (Apr 28, 2017)

higgs said:


> Finally.
> 
> It's pretty awesome how pumped they are to be offering a feature that was available in Cool Edit Pro V 1.0. Kidding aside, I am very excited to work in Reason more frequently now. Combinators with VST, Reason's FX's & instruments, and CV...mmmmm.
> 
> I've never crashed Reason on Mac or PC since I started using it in V2. I hope they stick the landing with this.


They said they've built in something that will detect VST crashes and cut off there instead of letting it crash the DAW entirely.


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## Michael K. Bain (Apr 28, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> It's way too convoluted for that.





Puzzlefactory said:


> I always used to like using Reason, would be interesting to see how it would hold up to orchestral work.
> 
> https://www.gearnews.com/rumour-reason-add-vst-support-last/


Before I switched to Studio One (for orchestral VSTs), I used Reason for complex Orchestra Work all the time, using Miroslav refills. Holds up well.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 28, 2017)

It's not nearly as streamlined as what you can achieve in other DAWs, especially with larger templates.

And boy, is the MIDI editor slow compared to what I have now in Reaper. No support for 14-bit MIDI CCs, no support for sysex... quite limited world in there, Reason.


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## Michael K. Bain (Apr 28, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> It's not nearly as streamlined as what you can achieve in other DAWs, especially with larger templates.
> 
> And boy, is the MIDI editor slow compared to what I have now in Reaper. No support for 14-bit MIDI CCs, no support for sysex... quite limited world in there, Reason.


Maybe my orchestral work isn't as complex as I thought, ha ha.


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## Calazzus (Apr 28, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> It's way too convoluted for that.


Explain please?


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## Calazzus (Apr 28, 2017)

I agree it is kind of too late for me but will be better than using their external midi device to incorporate some of the vsts I use with reason. I believe I was still be using Sonar Platinum to write television film video game music. I have concerns about being able to draw CC information. Besides I've already invested $400 into SPLAT.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2017)

I'm not sure if I see it as a standalone daw for big template orchestral work. but I do imagine it as some sort VEP replacement/ competition (or use both) if its hosted via rewire.
Load kontakt in reason and also any heavy cpu synths. or add cool effects to kontakt instruments as well as cool sequencer tools.


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## stonzthro (Apr 28, 2017)

There are things in Reason you could not easily do elsewhere, up until recently. If you are only using Reason for its sequencing abilities, then yeah, it seems somewhat pointless and behind the times. The magic of reason is that is has had modular synthesis at its core almost since it started. I wish other DAWs would move in that direction (maybe they have - I only use Logic and it hasn't, other than sidechaining). 

VST plugs are now available in Reason - very cool!


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## EvilDragon (Apr 28, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> I wish other DAWs would move in that direction



Reaper does all that already. MuLAB too. FL Studio too, to an extent - so does Bitwig.


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## EvilDragon (Apr 28, 2017)

gsilbers said:


> Load kontakt in reason and also any heavy cpu synths. or add cool effects to kontakt instruments as well as cool sequencer tools.



You won't be able to do that, because according to Reason's product manager, in ReWire slave mode, Reason 9.5 will NOT be able to load VSTs. Just like Ableton Live.

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6770043#p6770043

The only host that can host VSTs in ReWire slave mode is (AFAIK) Reaper.


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## gsilbers (Apr 28, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> You won't be able to do that, because according to Reason's product manager, in ReWire slave mode, Reason 9.5 will NOT be able to load VSTs. Just like Ableton Live.
> 
> https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6770043#p6770043
> 
> The only host that can host VSTs in ReWire slave mode is (AFAIK) Reaper.



oh :(


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## stonzthro (Apr 28, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Reaper does all that already. MuLAB too. FL Studio too, to an extent - so does Bitwig.


Really? you can cable CV and audio to different places for modulation of synths and plugins? Wow, I had no idea - I'll have to look into it more. Thanks!


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## EvilDragon (Apr 28, 2017)

Well, in Reaper, it's not cables, it's pin matrix, but you can route any in to any out of any plugin on a track, and even over tracks, yes. And there's Parameter modulation, where you can affect any automatable parameter with an envelope follower (for sidechain, say), an LFO, or MIDI link. And you can even do feedback routings (although you lose PDC this way, as PDC is physically not possible in that case).

MuLab is more visual as it has cables in its project "mux", as it is called. FL Studio has Patcher. Etc.


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## manuhz (Apr 28, 2017)

stonzthro said:


> Really? you can cable CV and audio to different places for modulation of synths and plugins? Wow, I had no idea - I'll have to look into it more. Thanks!



If you are on Mac, Five12 Numerology can do that and much more


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## Michael K. Bain (Apr 28, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> It's not nearly as streamlined as what you can achieve in other DAWs, especially with larger templates.
> 
> And boy, is the MIDI editor slow compared to what I have now in Reaper. No support for 14-bit MIDI CCs, no support for sysex... quite limited world in there, Reason.


One thing going for Reason is stability. Most reliable DAW I have ever used - even more so than Studio One.


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## higgs (Apr 28, 2017)

Michael K. Bain said:


> One thing going for Reason is stability. Most reliable DAW I have ever used - even more so than Studio One.


I played in a band circa Reason v2-2.5 and we used it on stage through v4...about the time the band split. Reason was wayyy more stable than the lead singer and drummer.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 28, 2017)

Michael K. Bain said:


> One thing going for Reason is stability. Most reliable DAW I have ever used - even more so than Studio One.



Won't be as great with VST support, even REs caused problems.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 28, 2017)

I don't see it as a game changer getting others to drop their DAWs and switch to Reason. If anything they should have put some of their stuff on the VST market. I always liked it for being unique. Now it isn't. One thing they dropped was auditioning a patch in the browser. No drag and drop midi without opening up the ID8. It's clumsy in many ways.


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## FriFlo (Apr 28, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> ... would be interesting to see how it would hold up to orchestral work.


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## Saxer (Apr 28, 2017)

18 years ago I used Reason1 via Rewire together with Logic3 on a G3 Macbook with 300MHz and 64MB Ram. Never crashed!


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## Michael K. Bain (Apr 28, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> Won't be as great with VST support, even REs caused problems.


of course, because VSTs bring issues to all DAWs, but Reason will handle it very efficiently, I bet.


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## Puzzlefactory (Apr 29, 2017)

Never really thought about it being a replacement for VEPro. Interesting idea. 

I do remember the "rack" could get very cluttered and disorganised in larger projects, so I would imagine that would get bad with a large template.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Apr 29, 2017)

I would upgrade in a second if they followed Korg's lead with Gadget, and made all the Reason virtual instruments (and effects) available as VSTs in other DAWs. 

I realize Propps would never do that, but it would be nice.


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## Syneast (May 23, 2017)

Saw the announcement tonight, and I actually shed some nerd tears. I have dreamt about this for 13+ years, since Reason 3. I had to leave it at version 4 in favor of Play and Kontakt.

I have been jumping between different DAWs trying to find something as fun as Reason. Most of this time has been spent setting up technically convoluted templates that I never use. The other DAWs just never fit my brain's way of working, I guess. When I open Reason, I make music. When I open Reaper or Ableton, I make templates.

On Monday it seems I can finally come back home. Back to making music again.



Damn them if there is a catch somewhere.


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## pmcrockett (May 23, 2017)

Syneast said:


> Damn them if there is a catch somewhere.


No VST3 – it's 2.4 only.


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## nulautre (May 24, 2017)

I've been using Reason since v1 and have always loved it. I switched to Reaper once i got into the orchestral side of things. I was very excited to finally be able to move back to Reason now that they have added vst support... HOWEVER I was recently given beta access and the performance on the non-logging Release Candidate version is very WEAK... 

On my Laptop (Windows), I am able to run Reaper at a buffer of 256 and get around 50 tracks of Kontakt and Izotope Neutron... On the RC version of Reason the audio would stutter around 8 tracks. 

Hopefully they will address and fix this, but at this point i can't see it being viable.


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## Syneast (May 24, 2017)

pmcrockett said:


> No VST3 – it's 2.4 only.


As long as this doesn't affect everyday use of Kontakt, Play or Spaces, I don't mind.



nulautre said:


> On the RC version of Reason the audio would stutter around 8 tracks.


This is a problem however. It's probably just meant to spruce up your mostly Reason tracks with a VST here and there.


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## nulautre (May 24, 2017)

Syneast said:


> This is a problem however. It's probably just meant to spruce up your mostly Reason tracks with a VST here and there.



They have stated on the beta forums that performance is one of the top things they will be working on after release. So hopefully it will get there eventually. But the version that will be out on Monday will most likely be the RC that i'm currently using.


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## kitekrazy (May 24, 2017)

Beta crashed a lot on me. I'll wait for the official release. If that is broken, I have no issues using Reason without VST support.


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## Puzzlefactory (May 30, 2017)

So? Anyone used the realesed version yet (as opposed to the beta)? 

Any good?


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## Michael K. Bain (May 30, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> So? Anyone used the realesed version yet (as opposed to the beta)?
> 
> Any good?


I downloaded the trial and only worked lightly with EastWest, EzDrummer and Kontakt, but stability seems good. However, a BIG drawback is that I have found no method for MIDI multi-out per instrument instance. I don't know if that makes clear what I'm referring to.


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## kitekrazy (May 30, 2017)

Michael K. Bain said:


> I downloaded the trial and only worked lightly with EastWest, EzDrummer and Kontakt, but stability seems good. *However, a BIG drawback is that I have found no method for MIDI multi-out per instrument instance.* I don't know if that makes clear what I'm referring to.



They are working on that next. Reason never had multi out sample instruments.


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## rvb (May 30, 2017)

I am demoing right now and actually really enjoying this vst update haha! 
I feel 14 again; I was an obsessed reason user when I was a kid! 
I am missing a freeze button though! Seems pretty stable so far


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## Michael K. Bain (May 30, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> They are working on that next. Reason never had multi out sample instruments.


They're working on that now? Cool, did they give an estimate of when it might be available? Thanks for the info.


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## EvilDragon (May 30, 2017)

Probably in a minimum of 5 or so years, haha.


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## Michael K. Bain (May 30, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Probably in a minimum of 5 or so years, haha.


True, and Reaper might implement things quicker, but it would take me the same amount of time to figure out how to use it, ha ha.


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## Puzzlefactory (May 30, 2017)

Anyone tried VePro in it yet?

(That could also be a way round the mitlitimbral problem too).


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## EvilDragon (May 30, 2017)

Michael K. Bain said:


> True, and Reaper might implement things quicker, but it would take me the same amount of time to figure out how to use it, ha ha.



Well for starters multi-out instruments are a two click deal in Reaper. Load a plugin, you get asked if you want additional tracks for multiouts created, click Yes. Done.

Also there are tons of tuts on getting up to speed with Reaper, so it'd take you much less than 5 years to figure out how to use it/shape it to how you want to work.


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## Michael K. Bain (May 30, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> Well for starters multi-out instruments are a two click deal in Reaper. Load a plugin, you get asked if you want additional tracks for multiouts created, click Yes. Done.


Is that a new addition? I think I remember it being much harder when I tried out Reaper a few years ago.


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## EvilDragon (May 30, 2017)

It's been there for quite some time now. So instead of adding a plugin directly on a track, you just drag it in the track area. Then you get asked about building routing.


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## EvilDragon (May 30, 2017)

OR... if you already added Kontakt on a track, in Reaper's FX window you go Options->Build multichannel routing for output of selected FX. There's also an option to autocreate 16 tracks for MIDI channels going into the track. All very simple to set up, and then save as a track template for later use - so you do it all once, then replicate simply by loading the template. Super easy.


But I don't want to be a drag in thread about Reason.


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## Michael K. Bain (May 30, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> It's been there for quite some time now. So instead of adding a plugin directly on a track, you just drag it in the track area. Then you get asked about building routing.


Oh man, that does seem much easier than other DAWs. Darn, that might've made the difference for me had it been there when I left reason to go to a DAW with VST capability.


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## EvilDragon (May 30, 2017)

It still could make a difference for you... you never know.


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## Michael K. Bain (May 30, 2017)

EvilDragon said:


> It still could make a difference for you... you never know.


Naw, I'm through DAW-hopping. S1 has been my choice for years; it was the closest to Reason's workflow that could find.
Truth is, if I could go back in time, I would have stuck with Reason and saved myself tons of money spent on VSTs. Some of the orchestral refills they have now are pretty good. Not as realistic as EastWest and others but still pretty good.


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## nulautre (May 30, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> So? Anyone used the realesed version yet (as opposed to the beta)?
> 
> Any good?


Getting the same performance here... (8 tracks of kontakt and neutron or 20 tracks of kontakt alone -- Reaper get's me 50/80) So the performance still needs work... but according to Props they are working on it...


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## Puzzlefactory (May 31, 2017)

I've just noticed, it's actually a bit cheaper buying some of the VSTs from the Reason store. For instance Zebra 2 seems to be €20 cheaper from them than from Uh-He and I think Analog Strings is too...


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## kitekrazy (Jun 2, 2017)

Never thought I would see a fanboy debate between Reaper and Reason. That's like debating a Corvette and Chevette. Can't drag and drop a midi or audition it and audition a synth in Reason. Oddly enough some don't like the idea of no VST support when Reason is in Rewire. I wonder if those are the type of people who buy a Mac Book Pro and use Bootcamp to run Windows and never use OSX.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 2, 2017)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I've just noticed, it's actually a bit cheaper buying some of the VSTs from the Reason store. For instance Zebra 2 seems to be €20 cheaper from them than from Uh-He and I think Analog Strings is too...



If you buy Synapse The Legend as an RE they also give you the VST.


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## Syneast (Jun 4, 2017)

nulautre said:


> Getting the same performance here... (8 tracks of kontakt and neutron or 20 tracks of kontakt alone -- Reaper get's me 50/80) So the performance still needs work... but according to Props they are working on it...


Yeah, less than about 8 tracks of Kontakt for me. Couldn't even get a simple orchestral percussion section going. Oh, and using three instances of QL Spaces as send effects seems to make things stutter and crack at odd times.


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