# Audio Modeling Swam Solo Brass first sight!!



## DANIELE (Dec 19, 2019)

So, here we are, let's the waiting begin:



What do you think? 

The sound seems a bit fake, I hope they can do better than this!


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## RogiervG (Dec 19, 2019)

indeed.. sound weird at moments... also an unclear mix in general.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 19, 2019)

Nope. Don't like it.


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## David Cuny (Dec 19, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> So, here we are, let's the waiting begin...


We're well past that point. 



> What do you think?


I've got the other AM libraries. 

This demo give me with no desire to open my wallet.


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## DANIELE (Dec 19, 2019)

David Cuny said:


> We're well past that point.
> 
> 
> I've got the other AM libraries.
> ...



I also have all the AM libraries and I found weird this demo, from them I was expecting a better quality overall. I don't want to judge too soon and I'll wait for other demos/videos/etc...but this one is a bit strange. 

I know they will do ensembles too but this is useful with strings, with brass it is better to play single instruments instead. So I think this will be a complete suite for brass. I found strange to see them classified as solos.


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## justthere (Dec 19, 2019)

I apologize for the negative post, but not everything is going to be a perfect review. 

It's dismal. I wish they just wouldn't put any kind of teaser demo out if it's going to sound like that. 

I _*really*_ love their strings and a lot of their winds, and use them daily. There is absolutely nothing as agile in the traditional sampling world. I'm writing for animation, and the fact that one can make things funny or sad or whatever, _just by playing_, is absolutely amazing. I just recently bought Spitfire's Studio Winds Professional, and I only use a few instruments in it because I am so disappointed in having to deal with all of the foibles of traditional sample-playback. 

But it should be said that if I went by YouTube videos and demos I never would have bought anything AM makes, because with a few notable exceptions the things they use to represent themselves are awful, in the most ironic way. These are some of the most controllable instruments available, and yet so many of the demos are someone playing them on a keyboard with a little bit expression pedal - or worse, a Roli with a lot of shoulder movement and wrist wiggling to not much effect. These instruments are among the very pinnacle of expressive and dynamic instruments, along with (unsurprisingly) SampleModeling and Aaron Venture's Infinite instruments (though I personally find AM and SM more compelling in many cases), and they ask the most of musicians because they can do the most - in a time where people seem to want libraries to emote for them, these can do what you tell them to do, if you know what you want and how to play it. But other than Rohan De Livera's wonderful work and a very few others, I have often been unmoved by their demos - I spent hours trying to find just a hint of what they could do before I bought, and even then I bought them on more faith than I would ordinarily allow, because I so strongly believe in the approach. 

Honestly, sometimes it feels like someone bought the modeling technology and replaced the software engineers with a bunch of young social media boffins, because whenever I see them it's all Roli synergy and Camelot and here's our new offices and look at this stuff we put out years ago. So much promise in the tech, and I know it's not a huge company, but I sure wish they would improve the body resonance on the strings, come out with their long-promised ensemble versions of them, and maybe even make the non-European-classical winds they have been mentioning for years. (If they made a great duduk that would be unbelievable. And a tin whistle, and some wood flutes from around the world, and a better flute, oboe and English horn.) But maybe they aren't because people mostly don't really want to learn how to control an instrument - maybe most consumers want something that's already there, and don't want to learn how to do a sforzando properly, or are more interested in making a synth do something sweepy than making a violin sound like a violin. Maybe AM are looking at the market and saying to themselves, "people are buying all these new 'alternative controllers' and most of them can't really play a conventional one very well, even, so maybe we shouldn't be focusing on the 'player' category of musician anymore - though that should be our core competency, the market is shrinking."

And a note about the Roli and almost every other new controller I have seen - the problem with these is invariably that the way sound comes from an instrument and is dynamically varied over time, from onset to release, is not best represented by velocity followed by either pressure or movement on the key surface - it's best reproduced by a multi-axis breath controller. Why? For one, it mirrors the way the original instruments are played, and for another, it leaves your left hand free for pitch bending or perhaps another controller. I suppose that rubbery puck thing would work too, though you lose a hand to it, and I haven't seen anyone make bowing on one really _sound_ like bowing, because it seems not to be analogous to the original, and in simulating a real thing, that's actually important.


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## NoamL (Dec 19, 2019)

0:31-0:32 listen to the supporting brass. How can a modeled instrument be out of tune??


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## jamwerks (Dec 19, 2019)

I would think of these as solo instruments to be' used in thoses situations where precise playing style control is more important than tone.


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## dflood (Dec 19, 2019)

NoamL said:


> 0:31-0:32 listen to the supporting brass. How can a modeled instrument be out of tune??


It’s so real, you’ll think you are back in band class? <insert trombone joke here>
I’m a fan of what AM are trying to achieve, but this seems like an odd demo for a solo library.


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## hawpri (Dec 19, 2019)

Honestly the first thing that came to mind was fond memories of The Empire Strikes Back for Super Nintendo. Hopefully the next teaser will sound significantly better.


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## chapbot (Dec 19, 2019)

I'll stick with my Casio for brass.


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## ryans (Dec 19, 2019)

Shirley they can't be serious...


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## Polkasound (Dec 19, 2019)

Audio Modeling is one of my favorite developers, but even a polka musician can tell that teaser was a swing and a miss.


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## Hanu_H (Dec 19, 2019)

Pretty ballsy to do a Star Wars mockup after this...


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## Eptesicus (Dec 19, 2019)

Not smart to poke fun at rivals (ie giga sample libraries etc ), when the actual result sounds like this.

I will take the "giga sample" libraries thanks if the alternative is this sound!


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## ohernie (Dec 19, 2019)

Ouch! Brass kazoo?


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## DANIELE (Dec 20, 2019)

This is a lot better:


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## Polkasound (Dec 20, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> This is a lot better:



I think it's good they put up solo examples, but quality-wise, I'm still disappointed. Audio Modeling is one of my favorite devs and their SWAM libraries are indispensable to me, but their brass sounds unnaturally fuzzy, tonally squashed at higher volumes, and the attacks can sound a little too MIDI-ish.


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## meradium (Dec 20, 2019)

Autsch...


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## ModalRealist (Dec 20, 2019)

Okay so forgive me if everyone in this thread has been joking...

...but isn't it REALLY obvious that the initial "coming soon" video is NOT using the AM instruments? The fake Star Wars crawl literally says: "It *is a period of monster giga libraries*" implying that what we're hearing is quite possibly an old giga library.

I mean there's no way the sound in the instrument teasers is the same library as in the "coming soon" video...

EDIT: holy moly I see at the end of the crawl it does say arranged and performed with SWAM Brass. Ouch!


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## justthere (Dec 20, 2019)

The horn has too much gurgle at every transition, the trombone sounds all overblown and synthy, and the trumpet also has a synthy quality - a metallic pinging sort of flutter-echo thing. The behaviors sound like they might be pretty good in the instruments - but sonically they are not pleasant.


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## dbudimir (Dec 20, 2019)

ryans said:


> Shirley they can't be serious...



I think they are!  And don't call me Shirley!


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## DANIELE (Dec 20, 2019)

justthere said:


> The horn has too much gurgle at every transition, the trombone sounds all overblown and synthy, and the trumpet also has a synthy quality - a metallic pinging sort of flutter-echo thing. The behaviors sound like they might be pretty good in the instruments - but sonically they are not pleasant.



I think that all of this could be adjustable. The good thing with this kind of instruments is that the player matters and not only the sample.


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## brenneisen (Dec 20, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> This is a lot better:



a bit less atrocious


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## David Cuny (Dec 20, 2019)

The solos _are_ better. 

I'd hoped the AM Trumpets would include a cornet. I'm not sure what a C trumpet brings to table, but I'm eager to hear their piccolo trumpet. To my ear, they sound OK. But I've already got the SM trumpets (which are very nice) so this isn't high on my "to get" list.

The AM trombone is disappointing. I wasn't planning on getting trombones, but whenever I listen to the SM trombone demos, it leaves me thinking _maybe I should get this, after all. _That's the sort of thing I want the AM demo to do, and it doesn't.

I've been holding off on getting the SM horns, waiting to see what AM horns would sound like. Plus, I was also sort of hoping that a descant horn (like CineSamples has) might be included. 

To me, the sound is only OK. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and wait, but I'm not holding my breath.

I wonder how many more demos AM will make available for the brass.

While I've got most of the AM instruments, many of these were purchased on faith that they would sound good, because I couldn't find examples of them being played on their website.

Have you wondered what the SWAM alto flute, english horn or oboe sound like? I did, but the only solo double reed they demonstrate on their site is the bassoon. 

There's no product walkthrough or detailed demo explanations of the instruments, just short (under 90 second) videos.

The longer videos on the product pages aren't particularly useful for making purchasing decisions. For example, there's a 20 minute video mis-titled "SWAM Solo Woodwinds in Orchestral Environment", but it shows how to set up SWAM solo _strings _as sections, _not _woodwinds.

I suspect they're understaffed for this. After all, the bottom of their Brass page still references "SWAM Clarinets" instead of "SWAM Brass". I don't even know what mutes (if any) come with the brass.

I hope this time around they provide enough demos that I can make an informed decision.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Dec 20, 2019)

ModalRealist said:


> Okay so forgive me if everyone in this thread has been joking...
> 
> ...but isn't it REALLY obvious that the initial "coming soon" video is NOT using the AM instruments? The fake Star Wars crawl literally says: "It *is a period of monster giga libraries*" implying that what we're hearing is quite possibly an old giga library.
> 
> ...


Haha, yea. It's pretty shocking isn't it? I'm not surprised you thought it's a joke. I also had a shimmer of hope reading your post - till I read the edit.  Yea, sounds like a terribly failed attempt that should never have been released. 
Unfortunately it simply sounds like what it is - a synth. Next time they should better visit Paris Fashion Week and ask some models for advice. They're gonna be better at "modeling".


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## justthere (Dec 20, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> I think that all of this could be adjustable. The good thing with this kind of instruments is that the player matters and not only the sample.


If it’s adjustable then it sure should have been - right now it sounds like a DX-7 patch to me. Agreed that it’s about the player, but if it is, surely they know that too.


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## brunodegazio (Dec 21, 2019)

justthere said:


> - it's best reproduced by a multi-axis breath controller.



What's a multi-axis breath controller?


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## brunodegazio (Dec 21, 2019)

After listening to the three short video demos on their product page here are my observations:

The Trumpet sounds excellent to me - convincing tone, attacks, transitions, lip trills, glisses and fall-off. A winner. 

The Trombone sounds less good, but I think it might just be the choice of music (and style of playing.) The transitions sound pretty good, and the slide trills (though overdone in the quasi-Dixieland style of performance) sound real. The attacks are a bit too much, and which is always a sore point on the trombone because even playing legato they have to (very lightly) attack every note in order to hide the slide movement.

Actually, my first reaction on hearing the trombone was that it was very natural sounding -- and disappointing. It sounded just like when my trombone-player friend blows a few notes in my living room. The sound is there, but its too close and small when its in a room that doesn't give the instrument somewhere to resonate. Needs some distance away in a nice sounding hall.

The Horn was the least convincing to my ear, but I have a hunch it can do better than this demo. The attacks were OK but overdone, and the transitions were convincing. There are a couple of lightly "ripped" transitions which sound good, I would have liked to have heard it do a real ff rip!

Having done some physical modelling software myself, and played the Yamaha VL instruments for many years, I'd say AM has done really well on the software development. I think the musical finesse will come with some further development. And practice.


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## chocobitz825 (Dec 21, 2019)

so is this the part where everyone says they expected better, shit on the library of a company that has been mostly consistent up until now, and then when someone puts up a better demo after the product is out for sale, people jump on the bandwagon and complain about how short the pre-order/intro price window is?

#JustCheckingForAFriend


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## widekeys (Dec 21, 2019)

brunodegazio said:


> What's a multi-axis breath controller?


The TEControl Breath Controller 2. Basically it allows multiple CC streams simultaneously, in the case of TEC BC 2 air pressure, bite, nod and tilt. It helps a lot with AM instruments as they require multiple CCs to be properly controlled.


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## bvaughn0402 (Dec 21, 2019)

chocobitz825 said:


> so is this the part where everyone says they expected better, shit on the library of a company that has been mostly consistent up until now, and then when someone puts up a better demo after the product is out for sale, people jump on the bandwagon and complain about how short the pre-order/intro price window is?
> 
> #JustCheckingForAFriend



As a former trumpet player I applaud it. But ... as all their instruments, they truly are INSTRUMENTS. That take time to master. Other libraries are after instant satisfaction.

I am still debating getting it and probably will. My debate is I’ve spent way too much money this month and that I mostly write for strings and woodwinds.


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## Batrawi (Dec 21, 2019)

bvaughn0402 said:


> they truly are INSTRUMENTS. That take time to master.


..so they may have not yet mastered their own instrument before releasing such demos?


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## justthere (Dec 21, 2019)

That teaser was plain terrible, but the individual instrument videos are really not much better. It’s true that their instruments need time for mastery, and also that they require musicality from the player, but they really need to take that time and get that player before putting out demos this flawed. I really want them to make great things, and so far I’m not hearing that.


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 21, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> This is a lot better:




This sure seems a lot like the SampleModeling instruments (especially the way Horns and Tuba are packaged). Is there no upgrade for owners of the SampleModeling instruments? Seems like it should almost be free to those who bought the previous instruments. Or at least at very low cost. 

I'm still not clear on the politics of the split between SampleModeling and AudioModeling. Was it some kind of internal feud?


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## zadillo (Dec 21, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> This sure seems a lot like the SampleModeling instruments (especially the way Horns and Tuba are packaged). Is there no upgrade for owners of the SampleModeling instruments? Seems like it should almost be free to those who bought the previous instruments. Or at least at very low cost.
> 
> I'm still not clear on the politics of the split between SampleModeling and AudioModeling. Was it some kind of internal feud?



I don’t know what the politics are but clearly SM and AM are developing new and separated products (with Sample Modeling also releasing their own strings)

I don’t think there’s any way that owners of the Sample Modeling Brass would get any sort of privileges or special pricing on the new Audio Modeling package.


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## justthere (Dec 21, 2019)

Seems like different tech to me. Can’t see an upgrade path possible.


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## David Cuny (Dec 22, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> Is there no upgrade for owners of the SampleModeling instruments? Seems like it should almost be free to those who bought the previous instruments. Or at least at very low cost.


Sort of like how Ford should give me a free (or nearly free) car because my prior car was a Chevy.


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## reutunes (Dec 22, 2019)

I watched the new Star Wars movie last night. If it had opened with this dodgy mockup I would've choked on my popcorn.


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## ch4rles (Dec 22, 2019)

brunodegazio said:


> What's a multi-axis breath controller?



This: https://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-bite-controller-2


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## Lee Blaske (Dec 22, 2019)

zadillo said:


> I don’t know what the politics are but clearly SM and AM are developing new and separated products (with Sample Modeling also releasing their own strings)
> 
> I don’t think there’s any way that owners of the Sample Modeling Brass would get any sort of privileges or special pricing on the new Audio Modeling package.



Well, we're sort of like the kids in the AM/SM divorce. The UI is different, but these instruments (and just the way they're packaged) makes me think there's a lot of similarity. The sound is similar (especially the slotted sounding vibrato). 

Que sera sera, but we know this is a split company, and we previously bought products from them. I would see the new model replacing the old model for all intents and purposes.


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## pmcrockett (Dec 22, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> Well, we're sort of like the kids in the AM/SM divorce. The UI is different, but these instruments (and just the way they're packaged) makes me think there's a lot of similarity. The sound is similar (especially the slotted sounding vibrato).
> 
> Que sera sera, but we know this is a split company, and we previously bought products from them. I would see the new model replacing the old model for all intents and purposes.


Samplemodeling used to _distribute_ Audio Modeling's stuff and the branding wasn't clearly distinguished early on, but the dev teams have always been separate, and as I understand it the tech underlying the instruments is also separate. At this point, any discount that one company would give based on ownership of the other company's products would be a competitive crossgrade, not an upgrade.


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## Hanu_H (Dec 22, 2019)

Lee Blaske said:


> Well, we're sort of like the kids in the AM/SM divorce. The UI is different, but these instruments (and just the way they're packaged) makes me think there's a lot of similarity. The sound is similar (especially the slotted sounding vibrato).
> 
> Que sera sera, but we know this is a split company, and we previously bought products from them. I would see the new model replacing the old model for all intents and purposes.


Totally different libraries and companies. Sample Modelling Brass is sample based and Audio Modelling is modelled. AM Brass is not going to replace SM Brass and it's not upgrade to the library, it a new one.


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## bvaughn0402 (Dec 22, 2019)

Batrawi said:


> ..so they may have not yet mastered their own instrument before releasing such demos?



haha ... good point. Unless they outsourced them.

But at the same time, I would bet folks on here would end up creating better ones because it is their craft?


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## purple (Dec 22, 2019)

woof


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## ag75 (Dec 22, 2019)

ch4rles said:


> This: https://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-bite-controller-2



Yeah the breath controller is the thing your wife rolls her eyes at when she walks in on you using it. 👀


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## widekeys (Dec 23, 2019)

ag75 said:


> Yeah the breath controller is the thing your wife rolls her eyes at when she walks in on you using it. 👀


Can confirm. It also sounds funny when you're blowing it with all your passion.


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## Mattia Chiappa (Dec 23, 2019)

ch4rles said:


>



I'm not sure if using a breath controller for a Viola would be an ideal solution though. It almost sounds like a Sax with a string like instrument timbre. It's a weird\cool sound but I don't think it's the right approach for realism.


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## anjwilson (Dec 23, 2019)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> I'm not sure if using a breath controller for a Viola would be an ideal solution though. It almost sounds like a Sax with a string like instrument timbre. It's a weird\cool sound but I don't think it's the right approach for realism.



If you have an ipad and apple pencil, pen2bow would maybe be more appropriate for the swam strings. The developer posted several videos and comments here when the app was released a year and a half ago.


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## gamma-ut (Dec 23, 2019)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> I'm not sure if using a breath controller for a Viola would be an ideal solution though. It almost sounds like a Sax with a string like instrument timbre. It's a weird\cool sound but I don't think it's the right approach for realism.



If you play it like a sax, then it is going to have that overall envelope. A breath controller doesn't force you to play that way, if you have the patches set up for you, the target instrument and the controller - with something like a Tec it's worth messing with the controller curves and, if you have the bite-sensor version, using the combination to simulate high/low bow pressure and bow-on/bow-off movements. It's like playing guitar on an MPE keyboard: if you play with some attention to how sound is made on the real instrument, things will go better. And it does need practice, like anything.


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## philippe goi (Dec 23, 2019)

We’ll have to wait for more brass demos! ,swam brass will become a reference with time and future updates, these are very innovative instruments, it is necessary to take time to understand them and exploit the enormous potential of expressiveness, these are the new generations virtual instruments


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## justthere (Dec 23, 2019)

philippe goi said:


> swam brass will become a reference with time and future updates



I think we can all want something to be better without this kind of baseless proclamation.


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## justthere (Dec 23, 2019)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> I'm not sure if using a breath controller for a Viola would be an ideal solution though. It almost sounds like a Sax with a string like instrument timbre. It's a weird\cool sound but I don't think it's the right approach for realism.



As has been said, you get from it what you put into it. Maybe you should try playing one rather than theorizing - understandable because we all do it, but there are many people who get great result out of these things, and lots of us don’t make YouTube videos because we are too busy using the instruments professionally.


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## dflood (Dec 23, 2019)

Batrawi said:


> ..so they may have not yet mastered their own instrument before releasing such demos?


Well, some excellent luthiers are not great guitar players.


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## Henu (Dec 23, 2019)

One thing that kind of puzzles me here -not to say that competition wouldn't be good....but - what are the things you would wish Audiomodeling to do _better_ than Samplemodeling already does?

I mean, despite being a bitch to make sound good in a room, I really can't figure out many things, especially playing- and controllingwise- that could actually be drastically improved from the SM instruments.


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## dflood (Dec 23, 2019)

Once again, a downloadable demo would put a lot of this arm-chair criticism to rest. Their online examples so far are clearly inadequate no matter how you judge the listening quality. In Audiomodeling’s case offering a trial version should be dead simple: there are no samples to pirate and it is it’s own plugin. After the trial period you either pay to authorize it or it quits working.


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## gamma-ut (Dec 23, 2019)

dflood said:


> Once again, a downloadable demo would put a lot of this arm-chair criticism to rest. Their online examples so far are clearly inadequate no matter how you judge the listening quality. In Audiomodeling’s case offering a trial version should be dead simple: there are no samples to pirate and it is it’s own plugin. After the trial period you either pay to authorize it or it quits working.



It's on pre-order, presumably because it's not actually finished yet.


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## dflood (Dec 23, 2019)

gamma-ut said:


> It's on pre-order, presumably because it's not actually finished yet.


And the preorder price is quite attractive. However, it comes with quite a risk: “Download sales are final. Audio Modeling does not issue product refunds once a download transaction has begun.”
This is software, like any other software. With authorization licensing, it’s pretty common to offer trial versions and/or money back guarantees. So I’m puzzled how so many VI developers have gotten away without doing this for so long. Is business that good?


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## I like music (Dec 23, 2019)

dflood said:


> And the preorder price is quite attractive. However, it comes with quite a risk: “Download sales are final. Audio Modeling does not issue product refunds once a download transaction has begun.”
> This is software, like any other software. With authorization licensing, it’s pretty common to offer trial versions and/or money back guarantees. So I’m puzzled how so many VI developers have gotten away without doing this for so long. Is business that good?



They do however allow license transfers, which is still ahead of a the big devs


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## dflood (Dec 23, 2019)

I like music said:


> They do however allow license transfers, which is still ahead of a the big devs


Please don’t get me wrong, I own the SWAM strings and I like them a lot. No complaints about the products or the company. This is ground breaking stuff. Just a general complaint about buying pigs in pokes!


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## I like music (Dec 23, 2019)

dflood said:


> Please don’t get me wrong, I own the SWAM strings and I like them a lot. No complaints about the products or the company. This is ground breaking stuff. Just a general complaint about buying pigs in pokes!



Oh yeah. 100% agreed on that point. I've wasted an unholy amount on products that weren't as described, and with basic cock ups that should have entitled me to a refund. In non sample land I'd have got my money back on half the stuff.


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## gamma-ut (Dec 23, 2019)

dflood said:


> And the preorder price is quite attractive. However, it comes with quite a risk: “Download sales are final. Audio Modeling does not issue product refunds once a download transaction has begun.”
> This is software, like any other software. With authorization licensing, it’s pretty common to offer trial versions and/or money back guarantees. So I’m puzzled how so many VI developers have gotten away without doing this for so long. Is business that good?



Yeah, there is quite a risk with this. IK has been using preorders for a while. With the Modo products it worked out reasonably well so far. Sampletank 4 (which on paper was a safer option), not so well. Good sample collection but a bit of a dog from a usability perspective.


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## artomatic (Dec 23, 2019)

Wow! Really? A 2020 Solo Brass library should not sound like this.
I have a few or their excellent modeled instruments but this is shocking!


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## Polkasound (Dec 23, 2019)

gamma-ut said:


> Yeah, there is quite a risk with this.



And there's another risk which hasn't been stated yet: no one yet knows what the tuba sounds like, because it's not in the demo. (I'm definitely not going to spend over $100 for a VI I've never heard.)

Personally, pre-ordering doesn't fit my purchasing style. When it comes to high-end (expensive) libraries, I'm the kind of person who spends days if not weeks researching and studying everything about the library before I buy it. I need to know the library's strengths and weaknesses _before_ I part with my money. I need demos. I need walk-throughs. I need reviews.



artomatic said:


> I have a few or their excellent modeled instruments but this is shocking!



I can't help but wonder if Audio Modeling was working around the clock on this library, so when it got time to making some demos and advertising a pre-launch sale, their ears were too fatigued to hear how much the sound of their modeled brass had slipped from whatever recorded sources they were using as a guide.

I have no doubt Audio Modeling's SWAM brass libraries are going to be much more fluidly expressive than sample libraries in general, but they'll still need to be able to compete with the best of those libraries sound-wise, too. Judging by Audio Modeling's past successes and proven standard of excellence, I have faith in them to absorb all of the feedback they're receiving and re-work their brass over the coming months until it equals or surpasses Sample Modeling.


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## VivianaSings (Dec 23, 2019)

None of these demos are really doing it for me. Sample Modeling Brass hit it out of the park for me right from the onset. I do love SWAM saxes though and use them all the time, but I think these, from just what I heard, can't touch SM Brass at the moment, which is crazy since SM Brass is older tech. 

Just for reference though, I record my wind parts with a Yamaha WX Wind Controller and so how the instruments react to a wind controller also helps with the realism. These might be good though to fill out a horn section mixed with the SM Brass so I'm not writing them off yet, but just from audio demos so far, I still prefer the sound of SM Brass.

I have a feeling though that modelling is sort of like black magic and just because one thing works, others might not. For example I adore SWAM saxes yet when I heard the winds (flute and oboe) I was taken aback with how artificial they sound. The flute especially sounds like a synth to me. I didn't expect this considering how they hit it out of the park with the saxes! But then I wonder if some timbres are easier to model than others.


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## dflood (Dec 23, 2019)

VivianaSings said:


> But then I wonder if some timbres are easier to model than others.


Good point. I would imagine that pianos and percussive instruments are easier to model than string or wind instruments due to all the expressive articulations. We may also be more naturally critical of some instrument sounds than others. We all have internally referenced notions of what any given instrument _should_ sound like. We may not be able to describe it, but we know it when we hear it. Likewise, we are pretty adept at noticing when it’s even just a tiny bit off from our internal model. I think we are particularly critical of modelled sounds because we know for sure it’s not ‘real’.


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## Batrawi (Dec 23, 2019)

dflood said:


> Well, some excellent luthiers are not great guitar players.


unless they have some basic keyboard skills to make them sound like one at least...
and remember...in the VI world, guitarists are the luthiers in most cases


----------



## lelepar (Dec 24, 2019)

Hi Everybody,

we are reading all your posts with interest. Any constructive feedback is highly appreciated. Any offensive or destructive feedback is simply ignored 

Just to clarify:
- we DO offer evaluation versions of our current products. Just ask for it at [email protected] or open a ticket request at https://support.audiomodeling.com
- it's not our aim enter in competition with this or that library. We just want to complete our collection of instruments, offer a new palette of sounds and, above all, provide expressive instruments that can be both played in realtime and programmed in detail through a DAW. Of course we are working every day to improve the timbre: for modeled instruments is the hard part. In addition, we have to model the right ambience, as a modeled instrument is completely dry... We don't give up 
- we are starting a BETA PROGRAM to test Solo Brass. If you are interested in participating, just drop a request to [email protected] or open a ticket request at https://support.audiomodeling.com

As for what SWAM Solo Brass offers in terms of features:

12 Brass instruments, from the Bass Tuba to the Piccolo Trumpet.

Any SWAM Solo Brass product can be set to emulate both Valves and Slide (i.e. Coulisse) instruments.
Have you ever played a French Horn with a slide? With Physical Modeling that's possible!
Of course, the default settings at startup set the instrument in the typical configuration.

In addition to standard SWAM control like staccato / legato (with velocity or CC controlled portamento time) note-on, expression (dynamic) and vibrato amount, there are several parameters to control the instrument behavior.

There are four types of Mutes: Straight Mute, Harmon Mute, Cup Mute and Hand Mute.
For Straight Mute and Harmon Mute you can change size and tone, building your own Mute timbre.
Harmon Mute, Cup Mute and Hand Mute can be controlled in realtime, creating the usual "Wah" effect.

Flutter and Growl available and controllable in realtime.

Any instrument can play Pedal Notes with an additional Valve.

Falldown and Doit key-switches available.

It's possible to control Half Valve or play Half Valve completely.

It's possible to control Breath, "Dirtiness", Attack Tongue, timbre variation in relation to the input Expression, Bell Resonance, and much more...

Any realtime controllable parameter can be mapped to any CC, HI-RES CC, NRPN, AfterTouch, and the remapping law (i.e. curve) is completely configurable.

Formats available: Standalone, Audio Units, VST2, VST3, AAX, NKS on Desktop; Standalone, AUv3, IAA on iOS.

More demos are coming.

BTW: instead of making funny suppositions about our technology, company, business, why don't you simply ask? We are available and open to reply to all our doubts. Just write at [email protected]

Merry Christmas to everybody!


----------



## ch4rles (Dec 24, 2019)

gamma-ut said:


> If you play it like a sax, then it is going to have that overall envelope. A breath controller doesn't force you to play that way, if you have the patches set up for you, the target instrument and the controller - with something like a Tec it's worth messing with the controller curves and, if you have the bite-sensor version, using the combination to simulate high/low bow pressure and bow-on/bow-off movements. It's like playing guitar on an MPE keyboard: if you play with some attention to how sound is made on the real instrument, things will go better. And it does need practice, like anything.



Spot on. The great thing about breath controllers is they leave both your hands and feet free. Practice is necessary and you need to keep in mind what you're playing. It took me some time to master the bite/nod/tilt sensors on the TEControl BBC2 but it was well worth the effort. It's quite tricky initially to decouple bite/blow but I think this is no different from learning to play a reed instrument. Don't forget to experiment with the attack/decay filters, this can be really useful.


----------



## DANIELE (Dec 25, 2019)

lelepar said:


> Hi Everybody,
> 
> we are reading all your posts with interest. Any constructive feedback is highly appreciated. Any offensive or destructive feedback is simply ignored
> 
> ...



Thank you for this post.

I have three questions for now, I would like to write them here so that this can be useful to other users, if I have to write to your e-mail let me know, I'll do it.

So...

1) Could every instrument be duplicated to have for example 12 horns? Are there some parameters to tweak to add the necessary diversity? Like your strings body impulse responses for example.

2) Are you planning some walkthrough of your solo brass before the early sale period ends? Just to see live how the library works.

3) To partecipate to beta testing do I have to send you some feedback mandatorily or I have the freedom to try the library even if I don't have any feedback?

BTW I have all your woodwinds and strings already.

Thank you.

Merry Christmas!


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## lelepar (Dec 25, 2019)

DANIELE said:


> 1) Could every instrument be duplicated to have for example 12 horns? Are there some parameters to tweak to add the necessary diversity? Like your strings body impulse responses for example.



Firstly, it should be clear that we are releasing "Solo Brass". The main purpose of such instruments is for Solo lines.
ANYWAY, each instrument has a parameter called "Unison Anti-phase" that allows to layer up to 5 instrument of the same type minimizing the phasing effects. Of course, it is not the only tweak to perform to obtain a good ensemble.



DANIELE said:


> 2) Are you planning some walkthrough of your solo brass before the early sale period ends? Just to see live how the library works.



Yes



DANIELE said:


> 3) To partecipate to beta testing do I have to send you some feedback mandatorily or I have the freedom to try the library even if I don't have any feedback?



We started the Beta Program contacting a few selected people that expressed interest in beta testing in the past. We are going to select additional people. If you are interested in participating, just drop a request to [email protected] or open a ticket request at https://support.audiomodeling.com .

Here are some directions about the Beta program, and our goals. We want to be on the same page with you, so there will be no misunderstanding and wrong expectations. We are looking for passionated musicians that can help us improve the quality of our products.

To apply and receive the beta, you should fill an application form. If you do not complete your application, you will be not eligible for the Beta Testing. We are selecting many candidates on many countries and with different skills and background.

If you apply to the Beta Program you are not allowed to post videos, screenshots, audio renders or any related material before the official release date and without the written permission from Audio Modeling.

The beta testing license will be active until the public release date. Audio Modeling will be glad to offer a lifetime license to the most active beta testers.

Audio Modeling can revoke any beta license anytime without notice.

If you will be selected, you are going to receive a Beta version. It must be clear that:
- products are still under development; they can be buggy; 
- features can be added, removed or modified.
- compatibility with future releases is not guaranteed
- products are provided for testing purpose only. Use Beta products on real productions at your own risk;
- if your goal is having fun with a free SWAM instrument, this is not for you, beta versions will be deactivated if we do not receive any feedback or bug reports, and in any case as soon as the public release will be available

Best!
Emanuele


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## lelepar (Jan 2, 2020)

Hi Everybody,

We are going to NAMM Show 2020 and we will demonstrate our instruments, including the new *SWAM Solo Brass* with an exclusive NAMM Show Preview.

*We have up to 4 NAMM badges that we are glad to offer to this forum users,* who apply to this form. If you will be selected, you have the chance to attend the NAMM Show, join us, try the instruments and tell your feedbacks to Stefano Lucato and the Team members.

If you are around LA from January 16 to 19, please apply here to win a badge and meet us at booth #10616.

*Applications close January 4th* and if you are selected you will receive an email for confirmation (deadline for Free Badge registration is January 6th).
Apply only if you are 100% sure that you can come.

In the meanwhile, we wish you a wonderful 2020 with this demo made by Luigi Zaccheo using SWAM Piccolo Trumpet (ALPHA release) and SWAM Solo Strings:




Cheers
Audio Modeling Team

*Application form*
https://forms.gle/S29nBXVXCnmb6EsXA


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## artomatic (Feb 25, 2020)

@lelepar Tomorrow, Feb. 26, is the scheduled release date. Is this happening?


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

artomatic said:


> @lelepar Tomorrow, Feb. 26, is the scheduled release date. Is this happening?


OF COURSE!!! Just a few hours and they will be available


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## mohsohsenshi (Feb 25, 2020)

lelepar said:


> OF COURSE!!! Just a few hours and they will be available



Just can't wait to see them come out and look for more details. I wonder how you guys modify the all in one bundle pricing, I'd like to pick them up although I've already got the sax.


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## Cinebient (Feb 25, 2020)

Looks to be wonderful, especially combined with Divisimate.
Will the iOS version come later and is it really the same full editing with all bells and whistles?


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

Cinebient said:


> Looks to be wonderful, especially combined with Divisimate.
> Will the iOS version come later and is it really the same full editing with all bells and whistles?



For ones have pre-ordered SWAM Solo Brass, they are NOW available in their account on Audio Modeling Customer Portal https://my.audiomodeling.com

As for iOS version, they will come in a few weeks. They will be (almost) complete as the Desktop version. We will remove just super-advanced options, and add a proper control surface to be used effectively with the iPad.


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

mohsohsenshi said:


> Just can't wait to see them come out and look for more details. I wonder how you guys modify the all in one bundle pricing, I'd like to pick them up although I've already got the sax.



As for the prices:
SWAM Trumpets: $250
SWAM Trombones: $250
SWAM Horns & Tubas: $250
SWAM Solo Brass bundle: $600

SWAM ALL-IN bundle (Solo Woodwinds + Solo Strings+ Solo Brass): $1400 (value of $2150)

Will provide convenient upgrade paths from any bundle to SWAM ALL-IN bundle.


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## Ben H (Feb 25, 2020)

Still waiting for the downloads to show up in my account. :'(


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

Ben H said:


> Still waiting for the downloads to show up in my account. :'(


How can I check your account? I don't know neither your email, nor your username...


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

Ben H said:


> Still waiting for the downloads to show up in my account. :'(


I found a "BenH" user, but I do not see any SWAM Brass registered to that account...


----------



## Saxer (Feb 25, 2020)

Nothing here too...


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## Virtuoso (Feb 25, 2020)

Login from the plugins and standalone versions isn't working for me. After hitting the 'Login' button, the text above shifts up a few pixels but nothing happens. I've tried resetting my password but no joy - I can't get further than the welcome screen.


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## Ben H (Feb 25, 2020)

lelepar said:


> I found a "BenH" user, but I do not see any SWAM Brass registered to that account...



Yep. That is the issue. I purchased the pre-order 8th Jan and it's not showing in my account.

I also raised a ticket earlier today through the Audio Modeling website and got no confirmation.


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

Ben H said:


> Yep. That is the issue. I purchased the pre-order 8th Jan and it's not showing in my account.
> 
> I also raised a ticket through the Audio Modeling ticket earlier and got no confirmation.


Weird, we have replied to all requests. I suspect that our emails are going to SPAM or get somehow filtered out. Could you please tell me what email address did you use for the purchase?

Same for @Virtuoso


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## Virtuoso (Feb 25, 2020)

@lelepar - I just sent you a video clip showing what I'm seeing at login.


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## artomatic (Feb 25, 2020)

Nothing here as well. My account is not showing that I preordered this - not in "Purchase History" as well...


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

artomatic said:


> Nothing here as well. My account is not showing that I preordered this - not in "Purchase History" as well...


Please PM me with your username and email used for the purchase


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

artomatic said:


> Nothing here as well. My account is not showing that I preordered this - not in "Purchase History" as well...


Found your purchase: it seem you have never registered any license key received after the purchase to your Customer Portal account


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

artomatic said:


> Nothing here as well. My account is not showing that I preordered this - not in "Purchase History" as well...


I've just done it on your behalf. Please check your account now.

Best!


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## lelepar (Feb 25, 2020)

Saxer said:


> Nothing here too...


Guys, I don't know your user accounts, so I cannot help you. If you need support, please PM me - or write to [email protected], providing your user account and email used for the purchase.

Please be extremely sure that you have registered the License Key(s) received just after the purchase to your user account on the Audio Modeling Customer Portal.

Best!


----------



## rlundv (Feb 26, 2020)




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## widekeys (Feb 26, 2020)

Everything worked fine on my end. No problem downloading after registering the licenses. I had a quick test-run with it and the playability of these instruments is great as expected. The fact that I can connect my TEControl BBC2 and retongue notes and control vibrato depth and speed simultaneously is not possible with any other Horn I own apart from SM. There is also quite a lot of control over the sound. For the attached French Horn demo I set a more muffled sound (the amount of hand-muting and cuivre is controllable), but a more bright sound (or even more soft) is also possible. I also chose to have less pronounced attacks and transitions (controllable via velocity speed and some parameters). I did shape the vanilla sound with some frequency eq and ERs outside the plugin. Everything runs stable and smooth. Strings in the Background are BBCSO Long patches.

Compared to sampled instruments, this Horn is obviously a lot more fun to play and as usual with AM insturments hard to get sounding right. The SM Horn has a rounder tone out of the box.


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## DANIELE (Feb 26, 2020)

I have the same problem, I have the email with the keys but I cannot download them from my account. I'll write to the support.


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## DANIELE (Feb 26, 2020)

lelepar said:


> Guys, I don't know your user accounts, so I cannot help you. If you need support, please PM me - or write to [email protected], providing your user account and email used for the purchase.
> 
> Please be extremely sure that you have registered the License Key(s) received just after the purchase to your user account on the Audio Modeling Customer Portal.
> 
> Best!



Maybe I didn't registered the keys, I don't remember now but I don't remember I received instructions about this. If I click on Pre-order info & faq. in my e-mail it relinks me to the audiomodeling home page.

I emailed you at support with my order code and my emails, I hope you can solve it.

Thank you.

EDIT

Nevermind, I solved it.


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## mohsohsenshi (Feb 26, 2020)

I guess it would be better and more useful to have some in depth/in action official tutorials like this than a crappy Star War mock up.

And I found some demo videos made by Mituzi Tachibana sound much more convincing than those on top of AM's page, in the case of SWAM strings.


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## lelepar (Feb 26, 2020)

mohsohsenshi said:


> I guess it would be better and more useful to have some in depth/in action official tutorials like this than a crappy Star War mock up.
> 
> And I found some demo videos made by Mituzi Tachibana sound much more convincing than those on top of AM's page, in the case of SWAM strings.




Nobody is perfect


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## lelepar (Feb 26, 2020)

DANIELE said:


> Maybe I didn't registered the keys, I don't remember now but I don't remember I received instructions about this. If I click on Pre-order info & faq. in my e-mail it relinks me to the audiomodeling home page.
> 
> I emailed you at support with my order code and my emails, I hope you can solve it.
> 
> ...



I've just replied.

Best!


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## mohsohsenshi (Feb 26, 2020)

lelepar said:


> Nobody is perfect



I agree. So I wait until it's out, I don't think that one shows the real potential of SWAM instruments.
I'm planning to buy more your stuff now


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## mdjohnson (Feb 26, 2020)

I got Trumpets and Trombones downloaded and installed - no problems after registering the keys. They sound great to my (unprofessional) ears! So much fun to play. I expect I will get horns & tubas later this year. I love the new interface as well! @lelpar - Any chance your older products will get retro-fitted with this style of interface in a future update?


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## I like music (Feb 26, 2020)

mdjohnson said:


> I got Trumpets and Trombones downloaded and installed - no problems after registering the keys. They sound great to my (unprofessional) ears! So much fun to play. I expect I will get horns & tubas later this year. I love the new interface as well! @lelpar - Any chance your older products will get retro-fitted with this style of interface in a future update?



Would love to hear any demos you might have! Even some basic noodling would be amazing


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## mdjohnson (Feb 26, 2020)

I like music said:


> Would love to hear any demos you might have! Even some basic noodling would be amazing


I'd love to provide that, but did I mention I'm not professional? I'd be worried about giving the wrong impression since my skill level is not stellar. Audio Modeling really needs to commission some professionals to create high-end demo audio files like everyone else does.

I'm in jazz mode at the moment, and am excited to have a full big band of SWAM horns. Will be working on an arrangement tonight, but I'm slow.


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## I like music (Feb 26, 2020)

mdjohnson said:


> I'd love to provide that, but did I mention I'm not professional? I'd be worried about giving the wrong impression since my skill level is not stellar. Audio Modeling really needs to commission some professionals to create high-end demo audio files like everyone else does.
> 
> I'm in jazz mode at the moment, and am excited to have a full big band of SWAM horns. Will be working on an arrangement tonight, but I'm slow.



I see where you're coming from, especially given how much work can go into SWAM instruments. But would love to hear it nonetheless  No pressure however. Enjoy the jazz!


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## lelepar (Feb 26, 2020)

mdjohnson said:


> I got Trumpets and Trombones downloaded and installed - no problems after registering the keys. They sound great to my (unprofessional) ears! So much fun to play. I expect I will get horns & tubas later this year. I love the new interface as well! @lelpar - Any chance your older products will get retro-fitted with this style of interface in a future update?



Of course, in a two/three months we will release an updated version of all other SWAM products.
Check out our roadmap: https://community.audiomodeling.com/index.php?u=/topic/24/a-rough-roadmap

Best!


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## Virtuoso (Feb 26, 2020)

lelepar said:


> Of course, in a two/three months we will release an updated version of all other SWAM products.


Great news! I really like the new look.


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## widekeys (Feb 26, 2020)

I like music said:


> I see where you're coming from, especially given how much work can go into SWAM instruments. But would love to hear it nonetheless  No pressure however. Enjoy the jazz!



What better way to test a trumpet than Mahlers 5th? The example was played in live with TEControl BBC2. The precision one can achive on multi-tongues is very satisfying. I also like the timbre of the trumpet, which can be customized. The one I chose was less bright with harder attacks.

I also tried a quick French Horn ensemble with 4 horns using the different anti-phasing instrument versions, playing each one in seperatly.


----------



## pmcrockett (Feb 26, 2020)

Ensemble of three trumpets playing a passage from Copland's _Fanfare for the Common Man_. Includes EQ, reverb (Spat + Spaces), and some sweetening. Ensemble MIDI is auto-generated from a single input with a Reaper plug-in I'm working on.


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## mdjohnson (Feb 26, 2020)

widekeys said:


> What better way to test a trumpet than Mahlers 5th? The example was played in live with TEControl BBC2. The precision one can achive on multi-tongues is very satisfying. I also like the timbre of the trumpet, which can be customized. The one I chose was less bright with harder attacks.
> 
> I also tried a quick French Horn ensemble with 4 horns using the different anti-phasing instrument versions, playing each one in seperatly.


How do you do the multi-tongues? I couldn't find anything in the manual. I can edit the MIDI notes to be very short, but found it impossible to perform a quick succession of short notes.


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## widekeys (Feb 26, 2020)

mdjohnson said:


> How do you do the multi-tongues? I couldn't find anything in the manual. I can edit the MIDI notes to be very short, but found it impossible to perform a quick succession of short notes.


If you have a breath controller, you can perform the typical "k-t-k-t" to disrupt the breath flow. In the advanced options of the instruments is a breath trigger and breath attack sensitivity option that will trigger note on and off messages and attacks based on the hardness of your breath. If you don't have a breath controller you can still use CC11 to draw in multi tongues. Without the advanced option, you're of course able to do normal Midi notes.

This procedure works with any of audio modelings instruments.


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## DANIELE (Feb 27, 2020)

lelepar said:


> I've just replied.
> 
> Best!



Yeah I saw it, thank you Emanuele.

Yesterday I was in a rush and I didn't take time to look at this simple operation.

I'll try them this evening after work.


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## lelepar (Feb 28, 2020)

DANIELE said:


> Yeah I saw it, thank you Emanuele.
> 
> Yesterday I was in a rush and I didn't take time to look at this simple operation.
> 
> I'll try them this evening after work.



Daniele, did you succeed?


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## DANIELE (Feb 28, 2020)

lelepar said:


> Daniele, did you succeed?



Yes I did. 

Now I need to practice the instruments.

Thank you for asking.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 29, 2020)

anyone have a roli seaboard that wants to show off the roli glissando with the trombone?


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## nordicguy (Feb 29, 2020)

nvm


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## trumpoz (Feb 29, 2020)

widekeys said:


> What better way to test a trumpet than Mahlers 5th? The example was played in live with TEControl BBC2. The precision one can achive on multi-tongues is very satisfying. I also like the timbre of the trumpet, which can be customized. The one I chose was less bright with harder attacks.
> 
> I also tried a quick French Horn ensemble with 4 horns using the different anti-phasing instrument versions, playing each one in seperatly.


Can you re-post the trumpet passage with a brighter trumpet please? I'm interested if this can indeed imitate the sound of a C trumpet.


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## widekeys (Mar 1, 2020)

trumpoz said:


> Can you re-post the trumpet passage with a brighter trumpet please? I'm interested if this can indeed imitate the sound of a C trumpet.


Sure. I attached three versions. One simply "Bright" and then the "Brightest" I could achieve with my current understanding of the settings utilizing different levels of dirtiness without touching EQ settings. I did not change the attacks from the original, so some attacks may seem over exaggerated which could be fixed.
There is no single slider "Brightness" but rather sliders called "Dynamic Sensitivity", "Dynamic Resonance", "Reactivity", "Bell Resonance" and "Bell Angle" and of course EQ which all influence the perceived brightness in different ways. Then there is "Dirtiness" which seems to control the quality of the bright bite amongst other timbral parameters.
While the timbrals sound similar at lower dynamic legato, the attacks and higher dynamics show the difference between the brightness settings.
There are far too many parameters to give insights into all possible combinations. For exampe: "Pipe Gesture" with "Half Valve Amount", "Reactivity" and "Valve Speed" together alter the way a legato transition sounds in many different aspects. Then there is control over the attack etc.

If you would like to hear another example, feel free to ask. Changing the parameters and rendering a new audio file is done in a matter of seconds.


----------



## widekeys (Mar 1, 2020)

The French Horn in F is interesting. Please listen to the two demos with and without EQ (less bright sound, more hand muting). To me it sounds like Audio Modeling accidentally released a weird sounding alpha version, please confirm if this is not just my personal taste in French Horn sounds. They commented on their community forum, that potentially filters could be implemented to change the amplitude of different overtones - just like Sample Modeling does for their brass. In my personal opinion this would greatly add to the value of their brass (and other instruments) since I often times find myself doing surgical EQ on overtones with their strings and winds aswell. The problem with simple overtone-EQing is of course that you need different EQ settings for each register the instrument plays in.

A sidenote to the French Horn in F: I have the feeling that legato passages like the one demonstrated are it's weakness. I'm currently working on a more short-noted and accent driven passage where the Horn feels pretty good. Very agile and precise, just like the trumpet.


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## re-peat (Mar 1, 2020)

‘Weird sounding’ is right, Widekeys. It’s not just the timbre, it’s the attacks too. Well, everything really. Things just don’t sound good. Actually, I don’t think _anything_ posted in this thread is convincing (quite the contrary, in fact), and I wasn’t impressed in the least with that mock-up trumpet concerto from a few weeks ago either. It seems to me that for every 1% of believability that these instruments generate, 4% of distinctly synthetic flavours and characteristics are being added to the timbre too.

And am I wrong or do things get exponentially worse, sound- and timbre-wise, the more of these instruments one brings together? All the ensemble examples thus far sound *very* weak and problematic.

To my ears, the closest to suggesting any potential in these Audio Modeling brass instruments is the Doctor Mix video posted on the previous page. If that had been all I had heard, I might actually consider a purchase, but then you hear everything else and that makes a pass a very easy decision.

For the time being anyway.

Because, to end on a more optimistic note: there’s certainly enough promise in this first version to know that they’ll get it right in one of the next updates. (At least the trumpet anyway, I'm slightly more doubtful about the trombone and the horn. Both of which instruments happen to be, and I don't think it's a coincidence, also the weaker releases — in my opinion anyway — of the Sample Modeling brass collection.)

_


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## widekeys (Mar 1, 2020)

re-peat said:


> ‘Weird sounding’ is right, Widekeys. It’s not just the timbre, it’s the attacks too. Well, everything really. Things just don’t sound good. Actually, I don’t think _anything_ posted in this thread is convincing (quite the contrary, in fact), and I wasn’t impressed in the least with that mock-up trumpet concerto from a few weeks ago either. It seems to me that for every 1% of believability that these instruments generate, 4% of distinctly synthetic flavours and characteristics are being added to the timbre too.
> 
> And am I wrong or do things get exponentially worse, sound- and timbre-wise, the more of these instruments one brings together? All the ensemble examples thus far sound *very* weak and problematic.
> 
> ...


Yes, ensembles are very hard if not impossible with any of their instruments. It remains to be seen how I can integrate the brass instruments into my workflow. But regarding their other instruments - they replaced my sampled instruments when it comes to solo passages. Expressiveness above timbre is what I always go for. And sampled instruments (at least the ones I own) are just too limited in this regard.


----------



## ZeeCount (Mar 22, 2020)

I picked up the bundle as I am eligible for a educational discount. Haven't had a huge amount of time to play with it, but so far there are somethings it does really well, and some others that it doesn't. It's very similar to the Sample Modeling Brass in that you have to use judicial application of EQ and spatilisation if you want to get a convincing orchestral sound out of it. It has a lot more control over the sound than SM does: e.g on the horns you can adjust the angle of the bell (effectively make the players stand up) as well as the position of the hand mute. Similarly to SM, the trumpets need the least amount of work and the horns the most.

Here's a little mockup from Jurassic Park I threw together this morning:








Dropbox - File Deleted


Dropbox is a free service that lets you bring your photos, docs, and videos anywhere and share them easily. Never email yourself a file again!




www.dropbox.com


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## widekeys (Apr 1, 2020)

For any late term lurkers, forum searchers or audio modeling enthusiasts. How does an audio modeling french horn brass ensemble sound compared to other options? After updating some audio modeling violin section mix, I was interested how far I could get with their french horns since a first test did not quite do the required mixing work justice. Attached are the Audio Modeling, Sample Modeling, East West Hollywood Brass and Sptifire BBCSO Horns playing a short 3 part harmony followed by a tutti melodic line.

Results:
AM Horns out of the box have a strange way of blending the "bite" sound, it feels almost linear and sounds too clean. To counter the linear issue, you can use a multi band expander to dampen the high frequencies until louder dynamics are reached. This will favor a more rounded sound, however it does not change the all too clean biting sound. Distorting higher frequencies or adding to the "Dirtiness" slider in AM Horns does not yield satisfying results either.
The choices of overtone levels from AM are odd. They require some surgical EQ in the range of the first overtone and the fundamental below 200Hz.

My personal opinion:
The amount of fine tuning and mixing is *almost not worth the outcome*.
I personally find the sound convincing enough that, after further tweaking, AM Horns may get used in full-orchestra context. Since they are very clean, they also *offer great potential for doubling sampled horns*. I like the pp-mf dynamics. Compared to SM, AM does not sound as boxy on the ff dynamics. Follow my youtube channel if you are interested in a walkthrough. Once I am confident that I've reached a desired sound, I may post a "how-to-mix AM Horn sections".
Is AM brass "worht it"? Yes. For the playability and fun-factor!


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## justthere (Apr 1, 2020)

I love listening to these kinds of things. Thanks for putting it up.

Did you do a version of the passage the other three are playing with the AM horns?


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## widekeys (Apr 1, 2020)

justthere said:


> I love listening to these kinds of things. Thanks for putting it up.
> 
> Did you do a version of the passage the other three are playing with the AM horns?


Yes, the first post was an error, sorry. It is corrected now. Thank you for pointing it out!


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## justthere (Apr 1, 2020)

I have all of this but BBC, and not much is inclining me in that direction - to my mind it’s the sort of thing one would get now if one didn’t have much else that’s great, and it’s a monumental achievement to be sure but in the interest of covering lots of bases, it lacks some detail, and some available nuance, and perhaps some programming. My two cents. 

I will say that although there is a lovely hero-tone in the EastWest, one really does have to write for that library. It’s because of the playability of modeling instruments that I have not bought more conventional brass libraries in recent times. There’s a time and place for the traditional sample library, and I often use them for quick stunts, but in the animation stuff I write, nothing - nothing - is as agile and flexible and capable of musical effect as the modeled instruments. So easy to write funny with bones etc. I am still tweaking ensembles on these - it’s my belief that the next big innovation in these instruments will be the emulation of group behaviors in real time based on a core performance gesture. That’s one best to be designed with machine learning, I think. But until then, randomizers will have to do.

And I’m thinking that folks who are using ambient sample-based libraries because “you can’t simulate the space” may be using the wrong reverbs.


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## widekeys (Apr 1, 2020)

This is also the opinion that I share. I got BBCSO for the raw recorded sound, EW HO for the bread and butter. Since then, I went Audio Modeling (and SM) all the way. I can recommend every instrument of AM - with enough time and practice you can pull off amazing performances and reasonable sound. My non-virtual-instrument friends were blown away by the "realism" when I showed off AM instruments, so the "you can't simulate the space" people probably listen all too long. There is a flaw in everything if you look hard enough.

My french horn demo above showed me that it was (for me personally) worth the money I've spent on AM Brass.


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## NeonMediaKJT (Apr 9, 2020)

ZeeCount said:


> I picked up the bundle as I am eligible for a educational discount. Haven't had a huge amount of time to play with it, but so far there are somethings it does really well, and some others that it doesn't. It's very similar to the Sample Modeling Brass in that you have to use judicial application of EQ and spatilisation if you want to get a convincing orchestral sound out of it. It has a lot more control over the sound than SM does: e.g on the horns you can adjust the angle of the bell (effectively make the players stand up) as well as the position of the hand mute. Similarly to SM, the trumpets need the least amount of work and the horns the most.
> 
> Here's a little mockup from Jurassic Park I threw together this morning:
> 
> ...


I love the Jurassic Park theme. Made me smile hearing your clip!


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## youngpokie (Nov 14, 2022)

widekeys said:


> Once I am confident that I've reached a desired sound, I may post a "how-to-mix AM Horn sections".


Hi @widekeys I'm sorry for resurrecting this but I wanted to ask you if you're still planning a walkthrough on how to work with AM Brass. Based on your comment from this past April, it seems you're still using it and I, for one, would very much appreciate a walkthrough! Thanks


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