# Imperial March WIP (Hollywood Strings, The Trumpet, The Trombone)



## FireGS

Thanks to everyones help in this thread! I've taken all of your advice, and redone it. Here it is!

EDIT: Took out all the old links. Just the final one. 

[mp3]http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchRC7.mp3[/mp3]

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchRC7.mp3

~FireGS

MIDI for you all! (Just the Brass, though)

http://aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchBrass.mid

Trumpets I used where the Main, #2, and #3.

Tbones were Tenor 1, Tenor 3, and Bass Tbone (on the third/lowest part)

Go nuts!


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## lux

thanks for that, sometimes demos like this one with instruments heard more naked are very useful. I think it sounds nice, expecially at the end. But definitely i think you should scoop the cellos in the mid-low as they sound a bit too rounded for the scope.


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## Danny_Owen

Nice. Really shows how much better the current generation of samples are than those of the old batch! Needs that percussion though, don't suppose you have spitfire? :-P would love to hear that properly in action


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## Justus

Very nice rendition!
What are your tricks to achieve these nice repetitions on "The Trumpet"?


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## handz

Thanks fo that - it is always good to hear well known piece done with sampless. On some places there are some "ugly" notes but overaly brass sounds very good. In the ending it is really nice. Keep going.


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## dcoscina

Are those the shortest string articulations that H-S can get? Sounds a little muddy compared to the original.


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## handz

OH those are HS? I missed that - yeah string are muddy - and mid ones sounds somehow "off"


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## sadatayy

dcoscina @ Sun May 23 said:


> Are those the shortest string articulations that H-S can get? Sounds a little muddy compared to the original.




short arts have always been done best by all libraries that's why even EWQLSO Platinum has decent sounding short arts still while the legatos and such are awful. this demo sounds real good but i wish if people were going to make mockups they would do more difficult things that have legato like the force/yoda theme or something like that. if anything what's more impressive to me in this mockup is the brass from SM. 

firegs did you layer the trumpet and trombone to make a section out of it or what?


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## FireGS

The Strinsg are a combination of Staccato for the accented first note, and Staccatissimo for the faster ones.

The brass was 3x The Trumpets, and 2x Tenor Trombones, 1x Bass Trombone.


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## FireGS

Okay, updated the first post with new link. 

Fixed the String EQ, Fixed Brass phrasing, and added Percussion.

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarch%20Export%203.mp3 (http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMar ... rt%203.mp3)


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## FireGS

sadatayy @ Sun May 23 said:


> if anything what's more impressive to me in this mockup is the brass from SM.
> 
> firegs did you layer the trumpet and trombone to make a section out of it or what?



That was my main goal, to show off the brass. If the brass couldnt pull it off, it wouldnt matter what the strings are doing.


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## sadatayy

FireGS @ Sun May 23 said:


> sadatayy @ Sun May 23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> if anything what's more impressive to me in this mockup is the brass from SM.
> 
> firegs did you layer the trumpet and trombone to make a section out of it or what?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was my main goal, to show off the brass. If the brass couldnt pull it off, it wouldnt matter what the strings are doing.
Click to expand...


the update is extremely good and realistic but I feel it's a tad dry still and the brass in particular feels like it's in a small enclosed room i.e. i hear just early reflection and no tail. i just listened to the real version on youtube and i know in that time period in particular things were much more dry especially williams scores but i think it needs a tiny bit more wetness at least in the brass ...then it will be perfect. 99% of human beings probably wouldn't be able to tell this is sampled, we've breached the event horizon.

-Tarik


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## FireGS

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchRC3.mp3

Changed the IR's, and a few other things. Im done for today! Thanks for the help guys, It came out a LOT better than I figured!


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## Marius Masalar

It's marvelous now. Absolutely frightening.


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## handz

WOW! Now it starting to sound like real thing. There is still some phasing glitch in one moment and brass instruments are maybe too present but WOW!


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## FireGS

Can you get me a time stamp where that phase glitch is?


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## handz

At 00:18 there is something that always cath my ear - not sure if it is phasing but sounds weird.


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## Frederick Russ

Nice mockup effort - these strings sound nice. 

The brass melody seems too close spatially in relation to the strings which tricks the listener into thinking it may sound too loud when it actually isn't. Samplemodeling brass tends to be extremely dry anyway - adding reverb doesn't push them back adequately. You may be able to do so however by adding an early and loose reflection IR (tight reflection) onto the bus that the trumpet & trombone share first before sending to the hall IR. Also, if you have any SAM brass, it may help in a layering role to perceptually give the brass the proper perceptual distance and not sound like the brass players are sitting on the front of the stage instead of their proper position in the orchestral scheme. You may also need to play with volumes on the brass in relation to the strings after you place them in a good IR chain to see if you get it to sit better in the mix.

A hassle I know but you're getting there! Thanks so much for sharing this - the strings are working.


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## FireGS

Frederick,
At first I though, jeez, any more reverb and its just going to sound like hell. But I did it, and I'm so glad I did.

At first, I was just using Fox Studios ER+tail. Then I changed to Todd AO + tail. Now Im using Fox Studios ER + Todd AO + tail. Mmmmm baby.



handz @ Sun May 23 said:


> At 00:18 there is something that always cath my ear - not sure if it is phasing but sounds weird.



Fixed it, I think. Thats just the trumpets.

[mp3]http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchRC4.mp3[/mp3]


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## handz

Much better! Strings truly sounds frighteningly realistic and true to the original!


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## Frederick Russ

brass is now working - good job.


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## hbuus

Man, this sounds frigthening and majestic now - just like the original! Cool stuff.

Best,
Henrik


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## mjc

Justus @ Sun May 23 said:


> Very nice rendition!
> What are your tricks to achieve these nice repetitions on "The Trumpet"?



+1

Very curious to know also! Sounds fantastic


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## germancomponist

FireGS @ Sun May 23 said:


> EDIT: Took out all the old links. Just the final one.
> 
> [mp3]http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchRC4.mp3[/mp3]
> 
> 
> ~FireGS



Very cool! o=<


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## FireGS

The repetitions arn't nearly as hard to achieve as you'd think. It's simply different CC#11 data for each note, slightly changed - and slightly different velocities. 

What amazed me is how crappy my first take was doing each brass line live with my Mod wheel. Mod wheels simply cant mimic Brass expression - so everything was done by hand. ALL of the brass. I'll post a MIDI in a bit for you all. 

~FireGS


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## FireGS

MIDI for you all! (Just the Brass, though)

http://aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchBrass.mid

Trumpets I used where the Main, #2, and #3.

Tbones were Tenor 1, Tenor 3, and Bass Tbone (on the third/lowest part)

Go nuts!


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## hbuus

Can you make the final rendition of the mp3 downloadable, please?


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## FireGS

Updated the first post for you


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## Polarity

WOW! Amazing!
Well done.


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## hbuus

Thank you! That goes straight into the folder I keep on my hard drive for high quality VI Control stuff that has impressed me


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## FireGS

I'm honestly very flattered! I started off doing this last night as a simple test of TheTrombone as I had just gotten it, and I figured I wouldn't be able to come up with anything decent. Here's an MP3 of my first Trombone only take. 

http://aixsyd.com/music/ImpMarchTboneTest1.mp3

Surprisingly, not the worst Ive ever heard. The tones way off, and the Phrasing is horrid. Thankfully its been fixed.

Ive toyed with the idea of completing the song, but the one part I know I simply couldn't pull off as well is the Horn section.

SAMPLEMODELING GUYS: FRENCH. HORN. GO!

But seriously...


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## handz

FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> MIDI for you all! (Just the Brass, though)
> 
> http://aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchBrass.mid
> 
> Trumpets I used where the Main, #2, and #3.
> 
> Tbones were Tenor 1, Tenor 3, and Bass Tbone (on the third/lowest part)
> 
> Go nuts!



Thanks! Looking forward to liik at it after work.


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## bluejay

Excellent mockup there. Are you doing anything clever to make the trumpets sit nicely together like that. I've often found that when I've tried to use them in ensembles (using all 3 different trumpets) they've just sounded weird together.


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## FireGS

dexterflex @ Mon May 24 said:


> Great Mockup. Are you using any mutes on the Trumpets? Also you mentioned using Fox Studios ER and Todd AO for the tail. Do you tweak the settings in Altiverb and use the stage positioning?



Yes, I used stage positioning for both the Fox Studios ER IR, and the Todd AO ER+Tail IRs. Also fiddled with the length of the tail, and the predelays.



bluejay @ Mon May 24 said:


> Excellent mockup there. Are you doing anything clever to make the trumpets sit nicely together like that. I've often found that when I've tried to use them in ensembles (using all 3 different trumpets) they've just sounded weird together.



Mmm.. nothing more than what's been said about the reverb. I used all 3 trumpets in one instance of K4, with K4 convolution Reverb with the "Warm Room" IR that came with the lib on the send as an early ER (set moderately wet, but still mostly dry. Just took that ABSOLUTE DRY edge off the samples). That routed out to Izotope Alloy for some EQing to make it sound a bit more harsh like the recording. That went into the Fox Studios ER w/ Stage positioning, which then went into the Todd AO ER+Tail w/ same stage positioning. 

By itself, it sounds horribly muddy and weird. In the mix though... mmmm - butter. :D


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## mixolydian

From now on I love The Trombone. =o


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## FireGS

I agree. If The Trombone didn't work, there would have been no way to pull this off. Hat's off the the SampleModeling guys. We just need to start petitioning them to do the French Horn. I want to be able to finish this song!

FRENCH HORN!
FRENCH HORN!
FRENCH HORN!
FRENCH HORN!
FRENCH HORN!
FRENCH HORN!
......CMON EVERYONE!

FRENCH HORN!!!!


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## Guy Bacos

The mockup is well done, balance and mix is very good. but hmm, to me it sounds thin and harsh, especially in the highs.

But still you did a great job.


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## FireGS

Just going after the sound of the original recording. That high end harshness is in the original as well.


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## Guy Bacos

FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> Just going after the sound of the original recording. That high end harshness is in the original as well.



Okay then.


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## FireGS

I've attempted this song a few times before when new libraries came out. Tried it with Symphobia, LASS, etc, but both of those libraries had too much of a contemporary sound. It sounded way too modern, and there wasn't a clear way to mess with it.

When I first started this version, I had everything very very close mic'd and extremely harsh with no air, like the original 1977 Star Wars OST. The second time around in 1980, they gained a bit of quality and changed the way the recording was done, but it was still pretty harsh (as far as Brass goes), but the strings sound more like they were recorded by a decca tree with reverb added, and theres noticeable air in the recording.

Are you referring to the brass specifically, or the mix as a whole?


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## Guy Bacos

I'm not comparing it to anything, just how it sounds to my ears. Sometimes we get very close to a recording in one area but then something is missing in another. It just lacks warmth overall.


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## FireGS

I've learned a lot from this thread. What would you add/change/do to add the final touch of warmth?


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## FireGS

Actually, to be more precise, how can I get it any closer to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8

?


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## Guy Bacos

Well obviously forget about getting to sound like that, but you could get it closer to that. I'm use to my samples and developed ways to add warmth, you'd have to do the same for your samples. What I do with my VSL samples may have a weird effect on your samples. But if you keep at it, you'll discover ways to add warmth. Trial and error.


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## handz

FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> Actually, to be more precise, how can I get it any closer to this:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8
> 
> ?



Upload it on youtube - that will screw up the sound exactly same way  

(sorry Im weak when it comes to tweaking mix )


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## Guy Bacos

My comments may seem harsh compared to others, but you won't improve if you actually believe your mockup sounds as good as the original. Also when tackling well known pieces by JW, be ready for the critics. :wink: I think people who adventure themselves in JW mockups have lots of courage. However as an exercise it is excellent!


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## FireGS

Oh, I agree - but one can't improve when told "its just not as good, try again, sorry". Ive taken everyones advice, and its helped. I appreciate constructive criticism, not just blatant criticism.


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## Guy Bacos

I didn't mean to be offensive, just trying to help in my own way.

Good luck!


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## FireGS

handz @ Mon May 24 said:


> FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, to be more precise, how can I get it any closer to this:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bzWSJG93P8
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upload it on youtube - that will screw up the sound exactly same way
> 
> (sorry Im weak when it comes to tweaking mix )
Click to expand...


XD

I'm actually using a vinyl pressing of the OST. I have all 3 originals on Vinyl. It just sounds sooo much better.


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## Guy Bacos

FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> Oh, I agree - but one can't improve when told "its just not as good, try again, sorry". Ive taken everyones advice, and its helped. I appreciate constructive criticism, not just blatant criticism.



BTW, I don't think this is a good attitude after I tried helping you.


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## FireGS

Helping would be akin to Fredrick's post. He told me a few issues, what worked - what didn't, and attempted to give actual ways to improve the mix practically, not existentially, or subjectively.


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## Guy Bacos

FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> Helping would be akin to Fredrick's post. He told me a few issues, what worked - what didn't, and attempted to give actual ways to improve the mix practically, not existentially, or subjectively.



I see, so you are expecting instant miracle solutions. Now I understand. Sorry don't have any. Have you ever thought of working to find your own tricks, or did you expect others who spent years developing them to hand them to you on a silver plate?


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## FireGS

Guy Bacos @ Mon May 24 said:


> FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Helping would be akin to Fredrick's post. He told me a few issues, what worked - what didn't, and attempted to give actual ways to improve the mix practically, not existentially, or subjectively.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see, so you are expecting instant miracle solutions. Now I understand. Sorry don't have any. Have you ever thought of working to find your own tricks, or did you expect others who spent years developing them to hand them to you on a silver plate?
Click to expand...


Wow Guy, that's quite an inference..

Never did I expect it. Nor did I ever ask for it. 

"Add Warmth" is not helpful practically when working technically. Its highly subjective. It's akin to telling someone who's upset to "calm down". There's not a lot to go on, and is quite frustrating.


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## dannthr

Sam, you can't expect from those who do not have to give.


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## Guy Bacos

:roll:


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## Guy Bacos

With a better attitude I probably would of shared some tricks through pm, but then from nowhere you insulted me, well that put an end to that!


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## dannthr

You guys are cute, you should have your own situation comedy.


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## FireGS

Funny how you showed no sign of that - said you wouldnt share any secrets ("handing them over on a silver platter"), and what all, yet now - to save face - "oh, I would have helped you if you would have been nice".

Well, to be honest, I asked for help very politely, and never insulted anyone. I'm simply criticizing your criticism. When giving criticism, be prepared for criticism yourself. :wink:


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## Guy Bacos

Oh God, that was a big waste of time!


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## dannthr

See, this is why VI needs a chat.


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## FireGS

Guy - 

Open invitation to see if VSL could perform this section of this work as well or better. Friendly competition. What do you say? I can even supply the MIDI.


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## Guy Bacos

Fine, organize it if you want, but don't include me.

Anyway, to recap, my contribution here was to say your piece lacked warmth. I didn't think it implied an obligation of me to tell you exactly how to achieve this. A kind thank you would of been sufficient.


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## dannthr

No, I think Guy Bacos and his secret bag of tricks threw down the gauntlet, let's see you hit this up, man!

I want to hear what real warmth sounds like :D


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## FireGS

Sweet. I'll PM you a link to the MIDI. 

According to e-mail logs, I bought The Trombone at 12:06 AM EST on the 23rd. My RC4 was done at approx 5PM EST on the 23rd. 17 hours from start to finish. As soon as I see that you got the PM and downloaded the MIDI, the timer starts. I'll give ya one whole day - 24 hours just to be sporting. PM Inbound.


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## Guy Bacos

Are you guys in high school?

Maybe you'd prefer to get into a rumble? :roll:


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## FireGS

Grade school, actually =D

Okay guys, PM sent. Anything not posted by 11PM EST (-5GMT) tomorrow (the 25th) doesnt count. 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND GO! =D


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## Guy Bacos

I received the midi file....Alright cool it with you little contest, I said I'm not taking part of this.


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## Guy Bacos

You're nuts!


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## FireGS

Oh. Looks like he edited his post to now not include himself. Oh well.


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## Guy Bacos

FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> Oh. Looks like he edited his post to now not include himself. Oh well.



I edited right away in case you would understand otherwise, and indeed you did. Calm down man!


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## dannthr

Party pooper... :(


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## Guy Bacos

dannthr @ Mon May 24 said:


> No, I think Guy Bacos and his secret bag of tricks threw down the gauntlet, let's see you hit this up, man!
> 
> I want to hear what real warmth sounds like :D



Just for the record Dan, the only tricks I have is hard work, very hard work.


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## Guy Bacos

You guys are so childish to challenge me to this silly contest. Honestly!


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## dannthr

This was a nice little break from work!


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## Guy Bacos

Right, I'm going to drop everything I'm doing for this.


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## Guy Bacos

Anyway, I was about to post a new demo, feel free to destroy it.


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## FireGS

Guy Bacos @ Mon May 24 said:


> Anyway, I was about to post a new demo, feel free to destroy it.



I wouldnt destroy anyone's demos. If i could offer up words of constructive criticism to help it (if it needed it), I would. 

....I might tell them to make the mix colder. :roll:


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## Guy Bacos

Perhaps you could learn from someone like Mathazzar, I gave him similar type comments and read for yourself how he responded:


http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16612


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## FireGS

I know how he responded. We're good friends.

As you'll notice - I'm not him, though. I replied in a way that i felt was very polite until you began to be offensive.

I'm ready to drop this when you are. If you're done, please stop posting in this thread. No more needs to be said.


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## Guy Bacos

You obviously didn't get the message.


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## FireGS

FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> I'm ready to drop this when you are. If you're done, please stop posting in this thread. No more needs to be said.





Guy Bacos @ Mon May 24 said:


> You obviously didn't get the message.



Neither did you.

Also, Flyers > all. :twisted:


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## Hannes_F

Hi Sam,

good work, good library.

For what it is worth I originally wanted to ask whether the original sound of the libraries had been brightened up for your mockup but thought I should not post such a comment until I saw how Guy got adressed for basically saying the same.

So ... yes, I would try a version that skips the Izotope. The original is not as bright to my ears.

BTW the use of tube mics, high end consoles and tape adds a different sort of brightness than EQ or enhancer plugins. That may sound similar on one set of monitors but usually does not on another (been there, done that).

All that set aside ... now I wait for your original compositions, and I expect the same calibre of writing from you :shock: :D :mrgreen:


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## FireGS

Heya Hannes,

Thanks =)

Yes, EVERYTHING but the percussion was brightened, and EQ'd to more closely match the original. I had no issues with anything Guy had to say until his posts began to be demeaning, utterly unhelpful, and pedantic. 

Try these:

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchRC1.mp3
http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchRC2.mp3
http://www.aixsyd.com/music/ImperialMarchRC3.mp3

Those different versions were all EQ/mix changes.

As for my own stuff, I'm working on something BIG, but I'm under unofficial NDA 

Not long, though!
~Sam


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## michaelv

I'm confused. I thought this was the "Members' Composition Review" , but I find myself listening to, um, John Williams. And not for the first time. Maybe V.I. should create a new category for people posting and demonstrating sample libraries, particularly if they didn't (or couldn't) write the music themselves. Then we could eliminate this distraction about what sample library did what and, perhaps, judge pieces on their compositional merit, and not resort to hijacking works of established writers to enhance one's mockup by putting on the shoes,so to speak, of true talent. Oh,is copyright clearance required to reproduce these published works, BTW? I would imagine it's illegal to otherwise post this for public appraisal.

What I find astonishing is the disproportionate volume of replies this demo has generated: way beyond what I would have imagined reasonable or appropriate for what is, after all, an adequate mockup of a great piece of cinematic theatre. But, I guess that's because the latter half of this has turned into the virtual equivalent of a bar-room brawl. :roll: 

I might have taken this a lot more seriously, if Mr. FireGS had taken the trouble to create his own music to accompany the demo, like the brilliant Mr. Bacos, or Alex Temple's, frankly, extraordinary (and extraordinarily undervalued) recent piece, which really should have eclipsed demo posts such as this, by the sheer talent on display. But, no, vox populi has spoken, and the lowest common denominator prevails, like everything else in the contemporary world of reality shows, et al. But that's another debate. 

Not wishing to detract from the "achievement" of this (very brief) rendition of Mr. FireGS', because there is a certain amount of skill involved, it is true: but zero talent is required achieve such results. Give enough monkeys enough time,etc.....


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## FireGS

Well there's a post thats aimed simply at me, not any work I've done. Thanks bunch. Real classy.

Considering there are scores freely available, I know there's nothing illegal about this. I'm not selling it, or claiming it as my own composition. 

There's a lot in that post that didn't make sense to me. 

I've NEVER claimed to be a composer. I know I'm not. I can arrange, transcribe, program, record, edit, mix. Never said Compose.

Sorry that I'm not as "talented" as the great Mr. Bacos. :roll:


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## michaelv

Actually not aimed at just you (an overinflated sense of self-importance perhaps?). And my query regarding copyright was not designed to inflame, threaten or otherwise antagonise an already tetchy poster. Rather, a genuine query of interest.

But,with respect Mr. FireGS, perhaps this is not the place for you, or your ilk, since it is self-evident that this section is dedicated to er, original compositions. I definitely now feel that V.I. should create a sample library section, when the less original can display their skills, then there would be not conflict of interest, and everyone would be happy. I'm a Utopian at heart, you see: a humanist even. :wink:


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## Frederick Russ

FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> Sorry that I'm not as "talented" as the great Mr. Bacos. :roll:



Actually, I think you're both talented. Therefore respect. Why the competition to prove what's already there? Sometimes a true winner recognizes talent aside from whatever he/she brings to the table too. 

Criticism can be with or without an agenda - its a real crap shoot in the real world, at least here you get the bigger picture of what's behind it instead of weeks of silence from a producer you're trying to woo. I wish you two guys would work it out though.


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## michaelv

Sorry, which two? Myself and Mr. FireGS, or Mr. Bacos and Mr. FireGS. Some good points, there, but I really cannot subscribe to assembling samples skillfully as being a talent, in the same sense as an originator of musical thought. It is a very valuable skill nevertheless, and should not be overlooked. I just don't put it in the same category as coming up with something like the Imperial March, for example, and that's why I feel it would be great to honour the exceptionally skilled mockup artist, per se, with their own category.


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## FireGS

Right, I understand your point now, and I never wanted it to sound like I was as talented as John Williams. I know I'm not. I would never think that. 

I come from an IT background, and this has always been a hobby, and I see mixing and sample programming skills a lot like programming. Theres a lot to learn, and to get things to work right. I'm young and always still learning.


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## dannthr

I think if Michael is so bothered and threatened by the placement of an excellent mock-up in the presence of original material on a forum category that is designated for original works, then the forum category should be expanded to include mock-ups.

Afterall, should original works suffer criticism without respect to the skill and talent applied to the production value?

No, of course not. All member review should probably be in one place. I don't think there's enough people doing JUST mock-ups to warrant it and I don't feel that original works should feel threatened by the presence of mock-ups in the review area.

For me, production is 50% of my job, and sometimes it's 80% or more.

Honing ones mock-up skills is actually BEST done when the sound is not inhibited by possibly suspect composition--I always recommend to people studying mock-uppery that they work off of a well known and well written unoriginal work.

John Williams is a GREAT source for this.

But talk about digression!


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## Guy Bacos

dannthr @ Tue May 25 said:


> I think if Michael is so bothered and threatened by the placement of an excellent mock-up in the presence of original material on a forum category that is designated for original works, then the forum category should be expanded to include mock-ups.



Threatened? Quite a strong word! Is that what Michael said, or is that your interpretation?


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## lux

well the reason a mockup like this gets lot of replies is obvious. Imperial March is something we pull on the plate every time we need to test something, new monitors, new headphones, new libraries.

The Empire Strikes Back is still one of the reference recording for a certain "airy" result. Mostly it is London Symphony performing stuff from a great composer and recorded in a very airy and detailed fashion. Simple as that.

In the virtual instruments world actually mockups get almost the same attention as original works as both contribute, in a pretty different way, to the technical research we all do every day to obtain a good and realistic sonic result.

So i see no need for comparisons. Both have a deserved place on this board.


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## mverta

Some pretty unprofessional conduct in here, in my opinion. That being said, without it degenerating into semantics, I can see an argument for putting mock-ups of others' work in the sample library discussion section of board, since it is ultimately a showcase for production, not composition.

I think it is natural to assume that the Members Composition section feature members' compositions exclusively. A simple moderator move could clear this up, I believe.

Nonetheless, I bought The Trumpet myself and have found it most useful as a layer in my brass section. By itself, it seems to have some qualities in abundance, yet is lacking in other ways such that it is hardly a one-stop-shop, to my ears, anyway. And perhaps this is the token statement, or the digg-me-down, but truly, I feel the closer we attempt to get, the more ultimately unsatisfying samples become. Having had a long parallel career in visual effects, I notice the exact same phenomena in our attempts at computer-generated photorealism. The closer we get, the harder the brain works to break it down. It's as though when the brain can't immediately decide if it's real or fake, it subjects it to more scrutiny trying to make a determination. 

I think the Williams' piece is as good as any as a subject for comparison. I'm not sure I agree with the majority opinion, though, on its representation here. In any case, thanks to the OP for giving us a chance to hear for ourselves.


_Mike


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## lux

mverta @ Tue May 25 said:


> Some pretty unprofessional conduct in here, in my opinion.



while i agree about conduct being childish (even if i'm really not the one who can give lessons), in general being "professional" is not a condition for a true membership on Vicontrol which is aimed at musicians in their entirety, professional, non professional, amateur, fun based noodlers and whatever comes to produce art. This is a consideration i often do while reading stuff on this board as many times it looks like a music professionals syndacate cafè, which in my opinion is not.

I like it related generically with art.


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## mverta

"Professional" in this context is synonymous with "respectful," which everyone has equal ability to be.


_Mike


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## re-peat

mverta @ Tue May 25 said:


> (...) but truly, I feel the closer we attempt to get, the more ultimately unsatisfying samples become. (...)


That's the very paradox that's been buggin' me for years: the closer we think we get, the bigger that last gap always seems to be. And from there, obviously: the better the library (or modeled instrument), the more noticeable this phenomenon.

_


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## mverta

People don't like to hear this, because they think it's negative, but I think it's truly joyous: We will not replace musicians, ever. 

I think these tools we have are amazing - I've been doing sample orchestra emulation since my old EMU Emulator II  And they're so useful, and they've given voice and experience to composers who might otherwise have had no chance to feel the rush. But in the end, I think as an attempt to quantify the infinite, beautiful complexity of humanity it is an experiment doomed to fail. And this, to me is equally beautiful, and a reminder of how special the human part of the human equation is. 

Again, I see so many direct parallels between this and CG visuals I almost can't count them. But in that world, we live alongside the reality that two things are happening simultaneously: 1) the public at large is more easily fooled than the visual effects artists, but 2) they're getting more sophisticated every day. They don't "buy" visuals we threw at them 10 years ago anymore. My mom can't tell the difference between the sound of my virtual orchestra and the real ones, but she can damn well feel the difference. That, to me, is the best way to define the discipline as a whole.

Sorry for derailing this thread. Someday we need to write new forum software that allows for "branching" like this. Again thanks to the OP for saving us a ton of work 


_Mike


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## FireGS




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## dannthr

mverta @ Tue May 25 said:


> People don't like to hear this, because they think it's negative, but I think it's truly joyous: We will not replace musicians, ever.
> 
> I think these tools we have are amazing - I've been doing sample orchestra emulation since my old EMU Emulator II  And they're so useful, and they've given voice and experience to composers who might otherwise have had no chance to feel the rush. But in the end, I think as an attempt to quantify the infinite, beautiful complexity of humanity it is an experiment doomed to fail. And this, to me is equally beautiful, and a reminder of how special the human part of the human equation is.
> 
> Again, I see so many direct parallels between this and CG visuals I almost can't count them. But in that world, we live alongside the reality that two things are happening simultaneously: 1) the public at large is more easily fooled than the visual effects artists, but 2) they're getting more sophisticated every day. They don't "buy" visuals we threw at them 10 years ago anymore. My mom can't tell the difference between the sound of my virtual orchestra and the real ones, but she can damn well feel the difference. That, to me, is the best way to define the discipline as a whole.
> 
> Sorry for derailing this thread. Someday we need to write new forum software that allows for "branching" like this. Again thanks to the OP for saving us a ton of work
> 
> 
> _Mike



Still, sometimes I watch Jurassic Park and am easily impressed at how it compares to CG today.

Freaking 1993!!!


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## handz

What happened here overnight??! 
calm down guys, there is a bit cold here now - we need warmth  

mverta / michaelv - seems like you two are those pedantic ortodox guys that never accept anything other than strict topic in forums (I hate that, but this is not northernsounds) 

"What I find astonishing is the disproportionate volume of replies this demo has generated:" do I smell jealousy? Yeah there - were (until it catalysed to chat) many new posts - because it IS always interesting to hear so famous piece remade with some new samples - it tells me much more than listening to some demos written FOR the samples. And even it is NO his composition it is work he made - his mockup, production, time spend... and I appreciate this. 
I would say it is much better than listen to someone who just downloaded symphobia from torrent and made unlistenable crap from it. (not saying that this is happening here on VI)

I dont care in which forum is what if it is interesting and it is about what is this forum about. 
And of course you simply cant have forum section for everything - Like MEMBERS JOHN WILLIAMS MOCKUPS FORUM and so on..
 
Even if you post your OWN stuff you have 50 / 50 comments for Composition itself and than for how "realistic" it sounds. 

dannthr said it very well.


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## mverta

dannthr @ Tue May 25 said:


> Still, sometimes I watch Jurassic Park and am easily impressed at how it compares to CG today.
> 
> Freaking 1993!!!



Yes, well we have similar parallels in virtual instrument stuff, too, I feel, though I think technology-wise, NOW is about 1993, for us. There have been some great accomplishments in VI mock-ups in the last couple years, especially. 

Even the OP's mock-up here, a few years ago, would've been game-changing, let's not forget that.

_Mike


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## dannthr

Whew, yeah, I can certainly agree with that--it's been a struggle in music, eh, but we're coming around nicely.

Mike, I know you work in a lot of film, but I work in games and in games the music budget is lucky to be 1% of the total project budget. We often are expected to deliver John Williams and LSO quality with just samples--like I said before, production is at minimum 50% of my job.

Sometimes it's 100% of my job, as I'll get contracted by bigger composers who are also struggling with whisp-like budgets and want great mock-up services rather than hiring an 80 person choir.

I also feel like good mock-up skills, while being practically a requirement these days for success in composing, do not compare to GREAT mock-up skills, which require generous amounts of elbow-grease and a talented ear.

You, of all people, highly respected for your mock-up skills can appreciate how long it took to reach that perfect template, or how hard it was to locate and tweak that one parameter to get it to sound just right. It's a special skill that not everyone who posted in this thread can do.

I think Sam has come a LONG, LONG way since he first started posting on these boards and I believe it's mostly because of these boards. I can certainly appreciate his frustration with a minimal and minimizing response for his hard work and his dedication to iteration and the learning process in general.

I certainly do believe that GREAT mock-up skills are far more art than craft and often require some serious out-of-the-box thinking and I see no lesser effort on Sam's part in his quest to become a great mock-up artist than anyone else's quest to become a great composer.

I don't know if Sam wants to be a composer. I've communicated with him for a long while now on IM, and we've discussed his mock-ups, and I've heard some extremely engaging and original arrangements from him (which I don't think he's ever posted on these forums), but I've never heard a totally original composition from him.

I respect that choice, if it is his choice.

Like I said before, great mock-up skills are certainly beyond most composers and good mock-up skills are arguably what separates a successful composer and an unsuccessful composer.

It's something to be respected, in my opinion, and worthy of this forum category's purview.


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## mverta

The money's there; it just isn't spent on music, because music is barely respected - a fact that is made worse by the prevalence of sub-standard music which abounds today. Many composers are confirming the disrespectful beliefs of producers who think music is "something you have to have," but don't understand its true power and value in the hands of a master.

By the way, the reason I have more experience recording my stuff with the A-call players in Los Angeles than most people with similar credits is because I realized very early that I was getting paid 10x more for a visual effects shot than I was getting for music. So I opened a post-production house, and handled all the post myself - visuals, music, editing, mix, everything - for a ton of commercials and trailers and industrials, which meant getting a big influx of cash, which _I_ could then decide how best to spend. I knew perfectly well it didn't take 10x the money to produce the visuals they were looking for, so I allocated the money for proper recordings instead. There was no drop in quality for the visuals, but the music took a huge giant leap up, obviously, and all the producers and exec's got to feel like Hollywood big shots at Todd-AO or whatever, while 92 players blew their socks off. They would stand there in the room, all proud of themselves and the landscape. My hope was that it was an investment - that the experience alone would motivate them to value music in the future without my having to _trick_ them into seeing the value in it. It didn't work.



Maybe in an alternate universe, composers are banding together, and telling producers to go f themselves until they pony up for proper music. Those producers are forced to go with generic instead of name-brand snacks at the craft services tables, but there are actual orchestras delivering actual music regularly. 


My last film was done entirely virtually, and it was maddeningly frustrating and unfair. I've turned down two jobs I really could've used since then because I just can't deal with doing that again, yet. It's hard enough trying to write well without feeling handicapped. It's a personal protest, I guess.


_Mike


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## dannthr

See, this is why VI needs a chat room--totally inappropriate way off topic digression that is interesting, eh?


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## mverta

I was going to mention the LSO recording that inspired the OP's comparison, as a way of re-threading it, but I figured that would be transparent and forced. So instead, I'm just hoping the OP is enjoying watching the growth of his thread, and realizing that it is, in fact, relevant. From a certain point of view.

_Mike


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## OB.one

I completely agree with you Mike with the Top Class Orchestra ! ...

... But perhaps today samples can be used with success in certain cases where the orchestra is not musically optimum,lack of musicians, amateurish band or during bad recording performances.

What would you prefere in that non perfect world ?

An amateurish orchestra playing live or the best samples at your disposal ?

I made my military service in the music of the army.
I can tell you i've heard sounds coming from certain trumpet players sounding like "synthy alien instruments" or also in certain music schools o=< 

Best 

Olivier


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## mverta

Yes, I'll take the best sample orchestra over the worst real one. But none of the scores that inspire me were performed by bad orchestras...


_Mike


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## OB.one

so we both agree together ... :wink: 

LSO at Air Studio ! 

Best

Olivier


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## Guy Bacos

For the record, this argument isn't about anything else but the manner in which some of the comments were said, and it all started after I had politely said the piece lacked warmth. When FireGS realized I didn't have a recipe on hand for this he responded like this:




FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:


> Oh, I agree - but one can't improve when told "its just not as good, try again, sorry". Ive taken everyones advice, and its helped. I appreciate constructive criticism, not just blatant criticism.



I thought this was disrespectful.


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## handz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9ebSCZ ... r_embedded

one of the cases where the samples would be definitely better


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## Guy Bacos

handz @ Tue May 25 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9ebSCZr1I&feature=player_embedded
> 
> one of the cases where the samples would be definitely better



lol

This is when when really appreciate samples!


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## hbuus

Guy Bacos @ Tue May 25 said:


> For the record, this argument isn't about anything else but the manner in which some of the comments were said, and it all started after I had politely said the piece lacked warmth. When FireGS realized I didn't have a recipe on hand for this he responded like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FireGS @ Mon May 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I agree - but one can't improve when told "its just not as good, try again, sorry". Ive taken everyones advice, and its helped. I appreciate constructive criticism, not just blatant criticism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought this was disrespectful.
Click to expand...


Looking back at how this started between the two of you, IMO it's fair to say that FireGS, you did seem a little oversensitive when presented with Guy's criticism, which was in fact rather politely put by him. Quoting off the top of my head Guy expressed his respect for the way the mix sounded overall; he even said you did a good job with the mockup. However, he also mentioned some brightness in the high register, which unfortunately seemed to be all you paid attention to in his otherwise positive comment. After this, it quickly becomes annoying, at least for me, to follow the dialogue between you guys. But all is not FireGS' fault, I think. Guy, would it really kill you to offer some kind of advice on how to achieve a better sense of warmth in a mix? If FireGS seem a little oversensitive to criticism here, you certainly seem a little overprotective of your mixing knowledge.

Best,
Henrik


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## Guy Bacos

After his "blatant" remark, that put a cold on the conversation. I do give advice now and then. Perhaps the next day, I might of thought of something to say, but he got impatient. 

Synergy has recently asked me questions on a thread and I responded, he was happy with my answers, but his manners were different.


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## Justus

handz @ Tue May 25 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9ebSCZr1I&feature=player_embedded
> 
> one of the cases where the samples would be definitely better



LOL, reminds me of this little nugget:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9gBGaB5bwI


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## handz

Justus @ Tue May 25 said:


> handz @ Tue May 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9ebSCZr1I&feature=player_embedded
> 
> one of the cases where the samples would be definitely better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, reminds me of this little nugget:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9gBGaB5bwI
Click to expand...


Muhehe what the !? Maybe cat walked on kebyord?


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## Guy Bacos

handz @ Tue May 25 said:


> Justus @ Tue May 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> handz @ Tue May 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9ebSCZr1I&feature=player_embedded
> 
> one of the cases where the samples would be definitely better
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, reminds me of this little nugget:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9gBGaB5bwI
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Muhehe what the !? Maybe cat walked on kebyord?
Click to expand...


As an once organist for a church, while playing you can accidentally touch buttons while playing, I'm thinking the mechanism is electronically triggered, and so perhaps what happened is he hit the transposing button.


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## Hannes_F

dannthr @ Tue May 25 said:


> in games the music budget is lucky to be 1% of the total project budget. We often are expected to deliver John Williams and LSO quality with just samples



Wash my coat but don't make me wet, said the bear to the rabbit.



> I think Sam has come a LONG, LONG way since he first started posting on these boards and I believe it's mostly because of these boards.



Definetely.


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## dannthr

I love you guys!


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## Hannes_F

mverta @ Tue May 25 said:


> I knew perfectly well it didn't take 10x the money to produce the visuals they were looking for, so I allocated the money for proper recordings instead. There was no drop in quality for the visuals, but the music took a huge giant leap up, obviously, and all the producers and exec's got to feel like Hollywood big shots at Todd-AO or whatever, while 92 players blew their socks off. They would stand there in the room, all proud of themselves and the landscape. My hope was that it was an investment - that the experience alone would motivate them to value music in the future without my having to _trick_ them into seeing the value in it.



Kudos to you, Mike. If this is true you are a hero.



> It didn't work.



Too bad.



> go with generic instead of name-brand snacks at the craft services tables, but there are actual orchestras delivering actual music regularly.



One can dream, right? 



> I've turned down two jobs I really could've used since then because I just can't deal with doing that again, yet. It's hard enough trying to write well without feeling handicapped. It's a personal protest, I guess.



Man, I feel with you.


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## dannthr

Yep, though, I'll sometimes trim some of my own budget for a couple of soloists.

If 99 players turn the in-game music off, I'm happy that 1 did not.


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## michaelv

Guy Bacos @ Mon May 24 said:


> dannthr @ Tue May 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think if Michael is so bothered and threatened by the placement of an excellent mock-up in the presence of original material on a forum category that is designated for original works, then the forum category should be expanded to include mock-ups.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Threatened? Quite a strong word! Is that what Michael said, or is that your interpretation?
Click to expand...


Threatened? Lol, not a chance. I know my work is of a consistently high standard, and I never,ever get any complaints from clients: only praise. That includes Discovery,Nat. Geo.BBC, US network shows, and now feature films, and I've had award nominations to substantiate that. Shall I go on?

It was a good demo, but in the wrong category, and I simply don't subscribe to Mr. Verta's assertion that we are dealing with semantics. JW is not a forum member, to my knowledge..... :?

There is only one John Williams, despite many attempts at plagiaristic flattery from certain members on this and other forums. I wouldn't dream of being arrogant enough to dispense advice to other would-be film composers, or otherwise, but my advice is: don't bother copying JW. Forget it. Be original (if that's possible), and follow in the example of people like Thomas Newman, who reinvented what a film score could be.


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## michaelv

....


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## michaelv

.....


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## handz

michaelv you are sooooooooooooo great!

seriously - you meant this post reiously? 
Im working in graphic design and one thing I assure you (and it works in music as well) Your clients dont kno ANYTHING about midi mockuping and music!  And tehy like stuff that proffesionals dont. And awards... 

I never heard anything from you, so I cant tell, but maybe a little bit of modesty would be nice.


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## Hannes_F

Eh eh ...

guys, this is about The Trombone. Would be suited better in the Samples Discussion but so what. When discussion gets too personal this is not good (but I am guilty of that too from time to time, hehe).

Sam, I think your variations are still a bit on the bright side. Which OST recording are you referring to?


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## FireGS

The original Vinyl pressing of the 1980 soundtrack. Not any of the remixed/remastered versions. I'm not at my studio today. perhaps tomorrow I'll rip a copy of it and post it here.


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## michaelv

handz @ Tue May 25 said:


> michaelv you are sooooooooooooo great!
> 
> seriously - you meant this post reiously?
> Im working in graphic design and one thing I assure you (and it works in music as well) Your clients dont kno ANYTHING about midi mockuping and music!  And tehy like stuff that proffesionals dont. And awards...
> 
> I never heard anything from you, so I cant tell, but maybe a little bit of modesty would be nice.



..and I thought the english invented sarcasm,lol. I didn't quite understand the first line :? If you carefully reread my post I made no claims to greatness, merely, stated a matter of fact. My clients are happy, full stop. They keep coming back, that's enough. If one is not delivering the goods, they don't come back, That's the business. Modesty has absolutely nothing to do with this.Anyone that knows me will tell you,that, if anything, I'm too self-effacing, so I take your unfounded sideswipe as an unjustifiable insult.

I have worked my proverbial butt off for years in TV and now feature films, and if for one moment I didn't have a modicum of self-belief, that I hadn't got what it takes to do this, then I would have given up and relegated this to a hobby. You are confusing that self-belief with arrogance: but that's your problem. I'm very comfortable in the knowledge of who I am and of what I'm capable. That does not mean that I'm arrogant. Please: get it right and don't insult others with sweeping assumptions about people you do not know at all.

Appreciated.


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## handz

Yes, your post was very arrogant in my opinion, (as other your posts in this thread from start to end) so i have to react.

Again I know so much bad designers / musicians that still have many clients, and clients are very happy with them, that this really can´t amaze me, it proves nothing, sorry but not. again modesty would be nice. I also think that Im pretty good in what I do but I would not use it in case like this. END


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## Angel

FireGS: This is a very jaw-dropping mockup. Well done. I enjoyed listening to it a lot!!!


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## FireGS

Thanks much!

=)


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## Hannes_F

double post


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## Hannes_F

FireGS @ Tue May 25 said:


> The original Vinyl pressing of the 1980 soundtrack. Not any of the remixed/remastered versions. I'm not at my studio today. perhaps tomorrow I'll rip a copy of it and post it here.



That would be cool, thank you. I have a version of it that is on a John Williams sampler and am not sure how authentic that is in regards of mastering.


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