# Composers and ghost writers



## MoonFlare

Hi,

I've heard about 'ghost writers', but how common are these in the film music scene? And, what exactly is a ghost writer? Is the purpose of a ghost writer merely to invent themes that are incorporated in the score by the main composer?


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## Kejero

More the other way around. I guess it's not much different from 'additional music', except that it's not credited. I may be wrong but I think it's more common in tv than in film.


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## Daryl

I think that one of the biggest differences is that with a ghost writer, the "composer" pretends he (or she) wrote the music themselves, by filling in the cue sheet incorrectly (which is also illegal in many countries).

D


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## dgburns

Daryl @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> I think that one of the biggest differences is that with a ghost writer, the "composer" pretends he (or she) wrote the music themselves, by filling in the cue sheet incorrectly (which is also illegal in many countries).
> 
> D



My understanding is that ghosting is more a situation when a composer needs/wants help for a project.If you can imagine you sign a contract to do a job for someone,you are responsible for the work getting done.After the fact,you decide you want/need help,do you ratify the contract? I think not.So ghosting is a practical alternative.Also it's a great proving ground for a staff composer who would not get the chance to show what he/ she can do.As far as cue sheet info,I'm of the impression that the credit goes to the person who wrote the cue,unless that was discussed beforehand.It's not uncommon for films to have quite a number of contributors.At the moment I'm thinking Trevor Morris et all,on alot of Rtec's films,but I'm sure there are alot of other examples.It's a great way to build a resume,but usually you agree to a period of time where you keep your involvement confidential,as far as demo reels etc.
this is my understanding,please correct me if I'm wrong
david


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## RiffWraith

Ghost writing may have slightly different meanings, depending, but basically it's this:

Mr. Composer feels that he will not be able to meet the deadline he has (he might be working on multiple projects), and/or he feels that he may not be able to do a particular scene justice. He hires another composer to score a scene, or maybe a few (generally not the main theme or themes), and pays the composer a small fee (per cue or per minute). That 2nd composer does not get credit - either in the credit roll nor on IMDB - and his name does not wind up on the cue sheets, so if the film makes it to broadcast, that 2nd composer does not recieve any PRO royalties (be it legal or not).

Sometimes you see "additional music by..." - that is not ghosting. That composer does get credit (obviously), and does recieve PRO royalties for the cues he scored. That is not considered "ghost writing" however.

Cheers.


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## gsilbers

RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> Ghost writing may have slightly different meanings, depending, but basically it's this:
> 
> Mr. Composer feels that he will not be able to meet the deadline he has (he might be working on multiple projects), and/or he feels that he may not be able to do a particular scene justice. He hires another composer to score a scene, or maybe a few (generally not the main theme or themes), and pays the composer a small fee (per cue or per minute). That 2nd composer does not get credit - either in the credit roll nor on IMDB - and his name does not wind up on the cue sheets, so if the film makes it to broadcast, that 2nd composer does not recieve any PRO royalties (be it legal or not).
> 
> Sometimes you see "additional music by..." - that is not ghosting. That composer does get credit (obviously), and does recieve PRO royalties for the cues he scored. That is not considered "ghost writing" however.
> 
> Cheers.



interesting. i guess there are different meanings. 

ghost writers in my understanding is that they help with several scenes, yes as addtional music, and do get royalties. but the credits will be buried at the end or not at all. 

the above is what i do. im the electronic guy so i help with scenes that have plenty of sound design or looking for electronic score. . i use the theme from the main composer. i dont care if my name is on the credits. i do get royalties. 

so i wonder if ghost writing doesnt get royalties then they get upfront fees?


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## midphase

Most "ghosts" do get royalties. Sometimes is a 50/50 split with the name composer, sometimes a 30% of the writers, sometimes 100% of the writers depending how generous the main composer feels...and yes, sometimes it's 0% with a rather minimal upfront or more typically a weekly salary that the main composer gives his assistant.

As far as I know, there aren't really any other principals in film or TV who rely on ghosts except possibly some writers, but that's fairly uncommon. Ghosting does seem to be a practice mostly with composers (what a surprise). 

When I do mention the practice of ghosting to directors and other industry friends, they all seem rather puzzled and surprised.


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## RiffWraith

midphase @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> Most "ghosts" do get royalties.



Interesting. My understanding was that was not the norm, but I guess each situation is different.


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## gsilbers

midphase @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> Most "ghosts" do get royalties. Sometimes is a 50/50 split with the name composer, sometimes a 30% of the writers, sometimes 100% of the writers depending how generous the main composer feels...and yes, sometimes it's 0% with a rather minimal upfront or more typically a weekly salary that the main composer gives his assistant.
> 
> As far as I know, there aren't really any other principals in film or TV who rely on ghosts except possibly some writers, but that's fairly uncommon. Ghosting does seem to be a practice mostly with composers (what a surprise).
> 
> When I do mention the practice of ghosting to directors and other industry friends, they all seem rather puzzled and surprised.



i thought ghost writing is how remote control was set up. this way they can churn out a lot more music. still the main composer gets credited. other composers get a bone if they are slow and assistant start their real world learning. 

cue sheets are fill out accordingly, depending on the deal, and the main composer is still like a producer fullfilling his duties as enhancing the movie with emotion.


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## germancomponist

In many areas there are backers who do not want to be recognized. They do their job, get plenty of money for it, and be silent. They do not care whether something is legal or illegal. And there are many different reasons why someone hired a ghostwriter. 

A broad field!


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## José Herring

I think it depends on the deal. 

I've ghosted a few times and in each case I've gotten themes from the composers and I was responsible for 2 or 3 cues. Cue sheet credit depends on how far down the ghost chain your are. I've ghosted for ghost also, and there was no credit for me given. I think that's the worst case.

On the best case ghosting can be really fun. If you do get cuesheet even better. What I've liked about ghosting is that you don't have to worry about pleasing the filmmakers and doing the whole song and dance demoing the score thing. You can just focus on writing the music. And usually I was more adventurous because I had nothing to lose. If I got fired from a ghost job, no big loss. Not like anybody knew I was working on the project anyway.

But, in all honesty, it can feel a little shady. You really do feel like you're doing all this work for somebody else's credit. So at least liking the composer you're working for is a must imo. It needs to be more of a personal friend that you're helping out type of situation.

On the flip side there are a few composer's in town that make a really good living ghosting. They're usually quite technically proficient composers who kind of lack an original sound. Or at least that original sound get's put on hold.

On one film I did, lower budget, I was up against what seemed to me like every major ghost writer/ composer's assistant in town. The director played me all the demos and asked me what I thought of these guys. Not fearing losing the job too much, I told him the truth. I said they sounded like really good composers, but there's some sort of emotional connection missing from the music. Probably because they were always trying to sound like somebody else. The director agreed and I got the job in spite of the fact that these ghost had way bigger credits than I did and were willing to do the job for free because they wanted their first solo credit.

It's a weird undefined thing ghosting. But, like anything else, it's what you're willing to put up with. Some major composers use to be ghost. A great way to get started imo.


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## passenger57

To each their own, but here's my 2 cents...
If I'm on a deadline and need to assign some cues to a composer friend, I give them an 'additional music credit' on the end credits. On the cuesheet they get 100% on the cues they wrote even if they used my theme. I don't nitpick about that stuff, they were helping me out, least I could do. 
In rare occasions if I'm doing multiple gigs and time is short, I'll split my score and share my main screen credit with the other composer. 
As for ghost writing.. the only time I've been involved with it is when I was young and starting out. I wrote a cue for a big name composer and did not get credit or residuals...not my cut of tea. But at least I got to hear my cue played with a live orchestra which was rather thrilling at the time.


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## germancomponist

There are Star hairdressers. They style the hair of famous people. Knowing that these ladies do not call his name in public... .

But they can still enjoy it when it is reported later in the newspapers: "Oh what a beautiful hairstyle this lady had.... ."


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## MoonFlare

Writing music that will not be credited seems strange to me - regardless of the main composer's name. Thanks for your inputs!


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## Waywyn

MoonFlare @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> Writing music that will not be credited seems strange to me - regardless of the main composer's name. Thanks for your inputs!



.. but sometimes in life you can't eat credits!


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## Daryl

As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing wrong with writing without credit, but being on the cue sheet is mandatory. What I don't understand is why a composer would claim that they haven written something that someone else wrote. Apart from the obvious the legal and moral issues, there is a very practical issue. In other professions the person who pays for the creative product also gets to claim the Royalties. Through historical precedent a composer gets paid and gets to claim Royalties as well. Therefore any composer who pays a ghost and then claims the Royalties for him or herself is basically going against that precedent. The logical conclusion to this would mean that a studio could pay a composer and then not allow them any Writer's share of the Publishing at all. It would be very difficult for that composer to argue anything to the contrary, seeing as this is exactly the way they behave themselves. A very slippery slope, IMO, and very dangerous for the survival of the current Royalty system.

D


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## germancomponist

Waywyn @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> MoonFlare @ Fri Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Writing music that will not be credited seems strange to me - regardless of the main composer's name. Thanks for your inputs!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .. but sometimes in life you can't eat credits!
Click to expand...


+1


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## Ed

When I found out Bear McCreary had used a ghost/additional music composer on various of his most famous shows like BSG and Terminator, which sounded exactly like him it blew my mind a bit. It's a talent to be able mimic someone so perfectly, but I think it's probably at the expense of your own voice and I expect the longer you work for the same guy it will probably be harder to shift away from that in the future


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## midphase

Ed @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> It's a talent to be able mimic someone so perfectly,



I guess it kinda depends on how complex the shit you're trying to mimic is...doesn't it?


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## gsilbers

Ed @ Fri Jan 04 said:


> When I found out Bear McCreary had used a ghost/additional music composer on various of his most famous shows like BSG and Terminator, which sounded exactly like him it blew my mind a bit. It's a talent to be able mimic someone so perfectly, but I think it's probably at the expense of your own voice and I expect the longer you work for the same guy it will probably be harder to shift away from that in the future



well, once its created then its easy to mimic. 

isn't there artist nowadays who can just draw the money lisa or similar? but its the original idea thats dificult. 

same deal with cris tilton doing what i thought it was giacinno for fringe


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## passenger57

What!? Now someone is going to tell me Santa Claus doesn't exist! Say it aint so Joe!


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## David Story

The purpose of ghost-writing is to make the producer look good. At the expense of the ghost.

Taking credit for someone else's work is unethical. Desperate people make that deal with the devil, selling all their rights in exchange for money. But the person offering the deal is wrong, no matter how 'common" the practice is.

Work for hire is equally unethical, again taking the rights of another in a desperate take-it-or-leave-it bargain.

These practices can and should be outlawed. In programing and design, arts, inventions.

We ain't going back to Imperial China.

Personally, I give credit to everyone who works on a project. And I make revenue-sharing deals. Teamwork wins over top-down in the long run.


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## Rctec

Dear David,
...all Studio pictures are "work for hire". And, as much as I agree with you morally, I don't think that that can be easily undone...


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## germancomponist

Right. I think this never can be undone! And, ask the ghosts.  If they are not happy with what they do, why they are doing it? As I said, it is a wide field. ...


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## David Story

Rctec @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> Dear David,
> ...all Studio pictures are "work for hire". And, as much as I agree with you morally, I don't think that that can be easily undone...



Dear Hans,

Agree it's not easy, but doable. The work for hire deal made more sense when there was a long term contract and a big support staff from the studio. Now that it's a package deal and we're independent contractors, makes little sense for the artists. 

Independent projects represent a lot of work and those producers are often willing to negotiate in good faith to retain more rights. And even the big studios will usually let you keep the writers share, in my limited experience.

What's your experience with indies? I imagine you can get a very fair deal.


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## mverta

I've never had a problem doing ghost work.

Sometimes you get to shine, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you get ghost royalties, sometimes you forfeit those for the opportunity to get in the room with someone important.

But if you can't handle having lots of people lining up to take credit for your work in all kinds of capacities, stay out of Hollywood. Trust me on that one.


Making a living as a composer, in my experience, means toeing hard lines of principles, and then sometimes looking the other way when they're stepped over. It all comes out in the wash, in time, so long as you don't make a habit of it.


_Mike


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## Daniel James

Having ghosted quite a bit up to this point I agree with most of what has been said above.

In my experience it has always been one of 2 things I was contracted in for. First and the most common to me has been the composer needs help meeting a deadline and the second is that I can do certain 'sounds' quicker than the composer.

I am aware in that second scenario it sounds like I am screwing myself out the job as I have certain skills they don't HOWEVER some of the projects I have ghosted on have been pretty high profile...no-one at that level hires an unknown.

As the ghoster you are in no position to complain about your role as a ghoster, you know what you are getting into when you sign on. Like I said I have done some pretty high profile gigs at this point, each one I took on was such an amazing opportunity for me to really cut my teeth at the highest level and get some personal hands on experience on how, when the time comes, I best approach working on a project of that scale.

tl:dr 'Ghosts' know what they getting themselves into and its a great way to learn.

-DJ


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## David Story

There are better deals and better people than this thread might suggest...Never give up.


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## José Herring

I just don't think you can be so idealistic about it. If you're sitting around doin' notin', and somebody calls you to ghost, it hardly matters the deal. Just another opportunity to write for some money. Then when something better comes along and you're busy. Then get picky. 

But me personally I find it hard to negotiate when I'm staring into the abyss. A bit easier to negotiate when you have stuff going on.


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## gsilbers

josejherring @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> I just don't think you can be so idealistic about it. If you're sitting around doin' notin', and somebody calls you to ghost, it hardly matters the deal. Just another opportunity to write for some money. Then when something better comes along and you're busy. Then get picky.
> 
> But me personally I find it hard to negotiate when I'm staring into the abyss. A bit easier to negotiate when you have stuff going on.



well, you're definitely being in LA for a while  


work is work. if you have to pay rent and bills....


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## dannthr

I feel like ghosting is a personal call.

All the ghosting work I've been offered, I've turned down.

Maybe I'm just an idealist, but my personal feeling is that requesting ghost work is inherently unethical and frequently exploitation.

I think that there is too much ego when it comes to the composer credit--I think the world deserves to know all the hard working people who write music, just as they know every single freaking animator's name or the flippin' personal assistant to the 2nd gaffer or some crap--people deserve to know that sometimes it takes more than one person to write a score.

In my mind, there is no viable reason for not giving people an additional music credit. Plus, how can the ego not LOVE the idea of a "Lead Composer" credit? It's like five times more important that just "Composer."

That said, I've never been offered an obscene amount of money for ghosting either, so who knows how far my ethics draw the line...

This is a personal choice, but even if you take it on, you have to accept that it's total BS that it even happens.


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## bimberl

One other thing to consider: there are established composers out there who have been extremely generous in promoting the careers of younger composers. I would offer up that ghosting for this type of composer can become an avenue towards doing a film with this composer (or another composer) as a shared credit.

A personal example: I co-wrote the score for "Jennifer's Body" with Stephen Barton. Was the fact that he had done some ghost-writing for another composer I respect--who was happy with Stephen's work-- a factor in my selecting him? You bet. And doing "Jennifer's Body" gave Stephen the opportunity to form direct relationships with the people at Fox Music. And I know for a fact that as a result of that gig he was considered as the sole composer for another Fox film.

I certainly respect the position of those who don't wish to take these jobs. But in an industry built on relationships this strikes me as potentially missing the opportunity to build one. For what it's worth...

TS


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## Tanuj Tiku

I ghost write all the time. Working on three films back to back at the moment. Love story, journey of three friends and a horror flick having just finished another one before this.

All for the same composer. We do get credited and promoted generously. The issue of royalties has not come into play in India because the copyright law is still in process. 

It will be in effect in the next 6 months for the first time legally. This might change a few things.

None of the composers I work with 'pretend' to have done the music solo. It is a clear team work kind of scenario. Of course, the composer has the ultimate final vision.


Some of the things you get doing this kind of work:

1. You get called in to write the kind of music you are known for specifically initially.
2. You are directly interacting with big composers, movie producers, directors and so many musicians, engineers etc.
3. You learn a lot in the process. Not only about music but about the whole industry and the work flow.
4. As an additional composer, I can do a lot more work and move onto to other projects, so its good money.

Here is the important bit - You form relationships with assistant directors and movie producers and the composers as well.

Guess, who is the AD most likely to work with when he/she makes their first film? You.

When the same producer, works on a smaller film, you are more likely to get called in.

I also dont have huge ambitions to become a full time composer immediately because frankly, I want to learn more. You get to learn so much, improve yourself without being the guy who they blame it all on.

I also dont want to lock myself in a studio and not know anything about the industry or meet other musicians, producers etc etc.

Its great to be able to work with the top 5 composers of the country till you improve your skills further, learn the craft and get seasoned.

Having said that I have already done music for a feature film. Guess who recommended me? Another top composer for whom I had worked on 7 films before.

Of course, I am talking about a healthy 'Ghost writing' scenario. Not an evil one where you dont get paid enough, no credit, sneaky composers trying to up their game by 'using' you.

Most of the people I work with are really good guys with good music chops, just less time and perhaps in certain areas they are not as skilled.

But hey, with all the perks that I have mentioned, I am happy to help and learn!


Tanuj.


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## midphase

vibrato @ Sun Jan 06 said:


> I ghost write all the time.
> We do get credited and promoted generously.
> None of the composers I work with 'pretend' to have done the music solo. It is a clear team work kind of scenario.



Hmmm...then you're not "ghosting", you are simply an "additional music by" guy...very different.


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## marclawsonmusic

I once "ghosted" and didn't realize I was doing it... until the credits rolled and someone else's name showed up!

I learned a lesson... I need to do a better job with contracts 

PS - "Work for hire" is very common in the software development field (my industry). But custom software is not as easily re-used as music. Even custom music can find a place in someone else's work - trailers are a good example of this, I think.


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## Kevin Kliesch

dannthr @ Sat Jan 05 said:


> In my mind, there is no viable reason for not giving people an additional music credit.



I've made my living mostly as an orchestrator, but I've also been ghosting for over 16 years. And now, having successfully made the transition to composing for television, I can tell you there is exactly one reason you don't want to do what is suggested above: politics.

Trust me on this one: most studios would drop you like a hot potato if you told them you were using someone else to write what you've been contractually obligated to write yourself. Only in very rare circumstances would I ever think of asking a studio for additional music credit for ghost writers (and I would have to have had a very long and prosperous relationship with that studio).


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## dannthr

Politics doesn't sound viable to me--it's mass ignorance of the complexity and sophistication of what we do.

I'm not saying it's fixable, but politics is not a worthy justification, just an excuse for a broken mindset.


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## MoonFlare

dannthr @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> Politics doesn't sound viable to me--it's mass ignorance of the complexity and sophistication of what we do.
> 
> I'm not saying it's fixable, but politics is not a worthy justification, just an excuse for a broken mindset.



I certainly agree. As most here knows, people producing film have a skewed perspective on film music. They don't recognise the art, skills and effort required to do a proper score - something whish is clear when considering film production budgets. Recently, I have been asked to score diverse media, including a feature film, but I've turned it all down since I've not offered enough money. I feel that the film music industry is not a healty place to be (unless you are at the top). People work for free, and apparently compose without being credited for their work. There is nothing wrong with hiring people to help out on a score, but it is no rational reason why these people should not be credited. And if there is e.g. political reasons, these have emerged as a consequence of an unbalance that should be rectified.


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## Ganvai

Can totally understand why to use a "ghost" without credits. I remember the big discussion about "The Prince of Egypt"-soundtrack. Hans Zimmer was named as composer and some others for additional music. 

But there was one scene done by another composer, based on the themes by Hans Zimmer. I can't remember every detail but this was going public. 

What I can remember is that there have been some press-releases and a really bad (and really unjustified) talking started, blaming the work of Hans Zimmer as fake and so on. A really ugly Hans Zimmer bashing started. Sorry, Rctec, if I'm telling something wrong. It's a long time ago,

So, for the slightly interested in filmmusic it's absolutely normal that you have ghost-writers, or additional composers. But for the fan, the _"Oh, last night I heard something about the one who composed Lion King Soundtrack"-guy_, this is scandalous. 

I'm not big in music buisiness but I have seen enought to know that it's very important for many fans that they can live in their dreamworld. When they would discover that their alltime-favorite lovesong-songwriter didn't wrote the tracks on his album all alone, this would be the end. If done together with patrick some songs for a medieval rockband that got some #1 albums in the last years. I know the fans of this band. If they would have placed our names in the booklet under these songs, this would have destroyed worlds. Oh, never seen it like that, but I think I have done ghosting to ^^.

To be successfull in music you sometimes have to be the one your fans like. If this needs to look like you've done everything alone on a soundtrack, you have to take a ghostwriter. I think the magic word here is : *Image*

Kind regards,
Jan


PS: You can see in this discussion that some people don't accept ghosting and I think they would be very disappointed to see, that their overall loved composer had some ghostwriters on some scores. I think just that justifies some ghosts :mrgreen: 

And if there are no ghosts, these guys would be out of business:


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## Tanuj Tiku

Kays,

I write typically 30 minutes of music in a film. So, it does some what fall into a 'Ghost writing' scenario.

Yes, I am credited as an additional composer and there is not really a plan by any of the composers to hide this fact.

In fact, many times I will play the director the scene I worked on directly and have a one on one conversation about it.

The composer, does come up with all the themes and a vision. It is also very collaborative a lot of times. Both of us will exchange scenes and ideas.

But the seed almost always comes from the composer. A lot of them cannot mock-up as well but have great musical ideas. 

Additional composers also write the kind of music which is not the skin of the score but needs to be done for various scenes.

Its also a matter of a fresh take on certain scenes. Sometimes, the composer is too involved or has gone through too many changes.

For my first film, I too hired two additional composers to write the kind of music I am not very good at. Not as good as them.

Largely the score was what I did but there were a few scenes that required a house, dub-step track with lyrics etc. So, I co-produced with them and had the over all vision. 

And in some of the meetings, I introduced the composers directly to the producers and director. This has led to one of them doing some work with them recently.

I am not insecure about my chops or generally as a person. I like to push the right kind of talent if I am in any position to do so.

Of course, I have faced bad guys in my short journey so far. One of the composers, wanted to pitch for a score based on my demos! Haha!

Of course, I got out of such places immediately. 

A film is a huge responsibility and a lot of work. You will always need a team to help you with it. In the future, if I can I will try and get a score producer on board. Everything gets streamlined and you can focus on composing a lot more.

For now, I have to do most of everything. 

Danny Elfman got different orchestrators on board for Spider man 2 because Sam Raimi was just not happy with a few scenes. Elfman did this to get a different take on the same cue to sort of give more options to Sam and the producers. 

An additional composer works in the same way.

Ghost writing is also part of the game and I dont find anything too wrong with it if its credited and as long as you are not doing the entire score yourself and the composer just takes the phat check and credit.

Once you jump into a film, you sort of forget the money and all the politics. I dont talk to the composer before starting out every new scene - oh well, this is extra so how much are you going to pay for it?

At the end of the day we are just musicians trying to make some good music hopefully and its best not to get too technical about everything. 

I mean, just the other day the producers said that well, we need to get a trailer out to the cinemas but we have no money. Can you adjust it in the fees of the film?

Well, its a small budget film and we want to help as much as we can as well. So we did it. They were really happy.

I dont think of producers and directors as Villains. Nobody wants to deliberately make a really bad film. At least I dont think so. We are all trying to make something good and worthwhile. Sometimes, the movies work, sometimes they dont.

Part and parcel. But, really its a collaborative art. Thats what film music is. Its not one guy with his singular vision banging away on the piano and being too egoistic to hire someone else who can do a better job on a scene to make a film better.

Of course ghost writing with bad pay and no credit at all is worthless.

Just my thoughts.

Tanuj.


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## Kejero

vibrato @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> Ghost writing is also part of the game and I dont find anything too wrong with it if its credited



I understand that conditions and reasons for ghost writing may differ. Even whether the ghost is writing entirely new material or working from drafts or even simply ideas, that all doesn't matter: the moment that you get credited for music you wrote, you aren't "ghost writing" anymore. Or are the credits literally saying "_Music ghost written by_"? 

The very definition of ghost writing requires it to be uncredited. It's the same in every field (comics, articles, so-called autobiographies, pop songs...)


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## Tanuj Tiku

agreed!

But I dont understand why one could not even get an additional composer credit.

What's the harm or what is the composer loosing in this?

Daryl made an important point of the cue sheet. Since this system does not exist in India because of copyright loopholes, its not really relevant.

I dont know what could be a problem for big movie studios in adding credits such as additional composer even if they had written from a draft or completely from scratch. This is effectively what I do as well but I do always get credited even if sometimes the money is not as great as the last movie.

Obviously, a $2 million movie is not going to pay as much as a $20 million one.

But I dont understand why cant a guy at least get an additional composer credit even he/she had done half the movie.

Tanuj.


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## Kralc

Really interesting read, this one. But for me it begs the question:
How do you start/get ghosting work?


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## rpaillot

vibrato @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> agreed!
> 
> But I dont understand why one could not even get an additional composer credit.
> 
> What's the harm or what is the composer loosing in this?
> 
> Daryl made an important point of the cue sheet. Since this system does not exist in India because of copyright loopholes, its not really relevant.
> 
> I dont know what could be a problem for big movie studios in adding credits such as additional composer even if they had written from a draft or completely from scratch. This is effectively what I do as well but I do always get credited even if sometimes the money is not as great as the last movie.
> 
> Obviously, a $2 million movie is not going to pay as much as a $20 million one.
> 
> *But I dont understand why cant a guy at least get an additional composer credit even he/she had done half the movie.*
> 
> Tanuj.




In a way , yeah, I dont see why it would be a problem for a lead composer to credit his additional composers. Maybe if you're a A-list composer like Danny Elfman , the studio counts in the high reputation you have to write a score which's you and not anybody else. And that must be written contractually, so you cant credit ghost writers ! But even in that case, I've seen tons of great composers crediting their additional composers.
So what's the problem ? 

It could be several things : Fear of the lead composer that the additional composers could find jobs thanks to the add.music credit ? I've been ghosting and that fear really exists.

Ego of the lead composer? Some thinks it's better for the ego to be the only 
one credited. You wouldnt want a producer to call " you and your team" to write a score but rather "you" . 

It's a complex situation but again , to each his own, if you think the deal is good, then it's good


----------



## Kejero

vibrato @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> agreed!
> 
> But I dont understand why one could not even get an additional composer credit.



Yeah I'm not a fan either


----------



## Kevin Kliesch

dannthr @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> Politics doesn't sound viable to me--it's mass ignorance of the complexity and sophistication of what we do.
> 
> I'm not saying it's fixable, but politics is not a worthy justification, just an excuse for a broken mindset.



Again, Dan, I speak from 16+ years of experience working on over 100 studio films. I've spoken with almost everyone in all of the major studios about this issue, including heads of music, and that's why I offered my opinion. If you choose not to believe me, then I wish you luck if and when you ever find the need to credit someone as a ghostwriter on a project of yours.


----------



## germancomponist

Kevin Kliesch @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> dannthr @ Sat Jan 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my mind, there is no viable reason for not giving people an additional music credit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've made my living mostly as an orchestrator, but I've also been ghosting for over 16 years. And now, having successfully made the transition to composing for television, I can tell you there is exactly one reason you don't want to do what is suggested above: politics.
> 
> Trust me on this one: most studios would drop you like a hot potato if you told them you were using someone else to write what you've been contractually obligated to write yourself. Only in very rare circumstances would I ever think of asking a studio for additional music credit for ghost writers (and I would have to have had a very long and prosperous relationship with that studio).
Click to expand...


+1

This is the reality. o-[][]-o


----------



## midphase

I disagree actually. I think the main reason is that we as composers are a bunch of insecure people!

A good friend has been working pretty closely with Ron Howard and Brian Grazer (look them up if you don't know who they are) and he was telling me how they are all quite aware that when they hire Hans Zimmer to score their films, they're actually hiring a type of "firm" in the same way that one would hire a legal team or an architectural group. They understand fully that Hans is there to not only as the main composer and creative director, but also supervise and guide his team of guys. They are perfectly fine with this since they know that it's the end product that counts. Perhaps Hans might want to chime in here with some thoughts about the way he works with these guys and how much information he discloses to his clients?

Most directors and producers for instance know that Art Directors, Costume Designers, Sound Designers and VFX artists avail themselves of help as needed and they aren't responsible for every single creative decision that ends up on the screen. 

I really believe that composers are fairly unique (ok...some writers are too) in their paranoia. If everyone managed to be more honest about the process perhaps we wouldn't need all this hush hush shit.

One last point -- if we're already juggling a bunch of gigs, perhaps it would be ok if we didn't grab each and every project that comes our way. Seriously...it's totally ok to say "no" every once in a while if you're too busy with other work, other composers could use the work. I don't get this greedy attitude and paranoia that if we turn down a director he'll never ever ever want to work with us again. Seriously, isn't it about time we all grow up about this stuff?


----------



## Kevin Kliesch

midphase @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> A good friend has been working pretty closely with Ron Howard and Brian Grazer (look them up if you don't know who they are) and he was telling me how they are all quite aware that when they hire Hans Zimmer to score their films, they're actually hiring a type of "firm" in the same way that one would hire a legal team or an architectural group.



I applaud Hans for giving credit to his team. But most of us don't have the reputation or influence that Hans does. I've worked with very few composers that were able to give me cue sheet credit. (Asking for screen credit usually gets you laughed at.)


----------



## mverta

So far I can't disagree with Kevin. 

But my prevailing thought is that if people worried about the quality of their music 1/10th as much as they worry about getting credit for their mediocre contributions, the landscape would sound a lot better.

My personal experience is that if your stuff really shines, it's hard to keep it in the dark for too long.


_Mike


----------



## Kevin Kliesch

Thanks Mike. That's precisely the reason I was able to transition from orchestration/ghosting to composing.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Kevin and Mike,

Well said! I think thats really true and I totally get the undercurrents in this situation. Its amazing to see how similar this process is even though we are in totally different countries.


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## RiffWraith

vibrato @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> Kays,
> 
> I write typically 30 minutes of music in a film. So, it does some what fall into a 'Ghost writing' scenario.
> 
> Yes, I am credited as an additional composer and there is not really a plan by any of the composers to hide this fact.
> 
> In fact, many times I will play the director the scene I worked on directly and have a one on one conversation about it.



As someone else said on the previous page, that is not ghosting. Maybe you missed that? 

When you write music, get paid, get credit, and the director/studio people know you are doing it, that is not_ ghost writing_. When you write music, get paid, do not get credit, and the director/studio people do not know you are doing it, that _is_ ghost writing. I think Kevin has offered some good points here.


----------



## Daryl

A quick question; please could someone explain to me, in terms of a composer's writing, what "work for hire" means. Ta.

D


----------



## Kejero

It means that you're writing music specifically for a project, under contract, for a client. The music you write typically becomes the intellectual property of your "employer" (although for budgetary reasons you may negotiate different terms).

This is different from licensing music you wrote and own, to someone for use in one of their projects. Typically such a license will be non-exclusive, meaning that someone else could license and use the same music in other projects too.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Riff,

You are right. I missed that bit. 

Kays also pointed it out. While we were on the topic, I was just presenting possible scenarios.

When I write music for others, it does become their property. I don't own anything.

Definitely, Hans has been very generous and his efforts have spawned many careers. 


Best,

Tanuj.


----------



## germancomponist

Daryl @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> A quick question; please could someone explain to me, in terms of a composer's writing, what "work for hire" means. Ta.
> 
> D



http://www.stopworkforhire.com/


----------



## Daryl

germancomponist @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> Daryl @ Tue Jan 08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A quick question; please could someone explain to me, in terms of a composer's writing, what "work for hire" means. Ta.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.stopworkforhire.com/
Click to expand...

Thanks, that's useful to read. However, I'm not clear on one thing; when people accept a work for hire contract, does this mean that they lose the writer's share of Pro Royalties?

D


----------



## Mike Greene

Daryl @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> However, I'm not clear on one thing; when people accept a work for hire contract, does this mean that they lose the writer's share of Pro Royalties?


Yes, except these contracts usually have an additional clause stating that the composer retains the writers share of PRO royalties. It will also often have a clause about retaining royalties for records sold and sheet music and stuff.

I think composer contracts (in the U.S.) are usually "work for hire" because it's easier/shorter than writing a "license" contract where every single instance that the studio might want to use the music for has to be written in. It works out the same in the end, it's just a different angle to get to the same conclusions.


----------



## dannthr

Kevin Kliesch @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> dannthr @ Mon Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Politics doesn't sound viable to me--it's mass ignorance of the complexity and sophistication of what we do.
> 
> I'm not saying it's fixable, but politics is not a worthy justification, just an excuse for a broken mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, Dan, I speak from 16+ years of experience working on over 100 studio films. I've spoken with almost everyone in all of the major studios about this issue, including heads of music, and that's why I offered my opinion. If you choose not to believe me, then I wish you luck if and when you ever find the need to credit someone as a ghostwriter on a project of yours.
Click to expand...


I never said that I did not believe you--I'm saying I don't think it's a justifiable cause. I understand it's the 'way it is,' but I don't think it's okay--and at this stage, that will be a blessing of a problem to have for me.

Most of my clients have been pretty relaxed about credit, but I also don't work in film (work in games), so some things are different there, and some things are not.

I hope that the industry can progress and credit every person for the work they do to create the amazing products we all enjoy, cherish, and remember.

Afterall, if the extended cut of the LotR trilogy can include every name of every person on the freaking LotR fan club, then there's room in that black credit roll to credit all the "little people."


----------



## Rctec

...I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but just some random and incomplete thoughts from the battlefield...(in bad English)

Giving someone a credit on a big movie is always a huge negotiation with the studio. Basically, the studios are trying to keep the end crawl as short as possible, because it actually costs them money in film stock, prints, etc. There is a really awkward 3/4 bar in an endtitle piece in a Disney movie I did, because they had an absolute rule about length of end credits. That extra beat just had to go  There was a mathematical formula about how much they where going to safe a year by keeping their end-crawl on all their movies a certain length. We managed to change that, but it took years...

I try, when ever possible, to give everyone a credit. I try to be fair, but sometimes it's just not possible. The "additional composer" credit inevitably means that someone in some other department needs to give up their credit.

The legal departments are very strict about the type of credit one can get. For example, "producer" means something quite different in the record business then in the film business. ...And yes, I was reminded by an executive once that it's called "show-business", not "show-friends". You are stuck with things like "Music Supervisor". John Williams once said to me that the words "music" and "supervision" should never be uttered in the same sentence. Of course he's right, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a whole bunch of very creative individuals contributing to the score as "music supervisors"...

I never hide my collaborators. But as the composer, I'm the main architect. That means being responsible for the intitial idea, the style, themes, orchestration and instrumentation. The Big Idea. But in a two hour-plus score, especially the way I work, you need a bit of help. Writing with pencil and paper is far more efficent and fast than programming every note and doing complete mock-ups. But a pencil and paper score means that you can never have a truly informed conversation with the director until you get to the orchestra session, and I don't like making changes with a whole orchestra sitting there, twiddling their thumbs. The orchestra sessions for me are about giving the score energy through performance, and you can't do that if the composer and director are arguing about the notes or orchestration. Plus, I like the hybrid sound. Call me crazy... 

And the easiest - and fairest way in my oppinion - is to have everybody present at all the meetings with the director. No ghosts. Ghosts are devoid of souls, egos and oppinons. Ghosts have no emotional investments in their work. But at the end of the day, I have the final responsibility, I take the blame if the score doesn't work out. Financially and creatively. And with 200 mill budgets and impossible deadlines, that's quite a weight on anyone's shoulder, and it takes a while to learn how to think freely and creatively out of the box under that sort of pressure.

I've been a ghost myself (on really big movies). Sometimes, you just have to chip in for no credit, money or royalties. And it's actually quite liberating to not have the big credit and all the exposure to critisism that comes with it. (cue-sheet is far to big, complicated and fraught with pitfalls a subject for my little post right now, so I'm ignoring that part of the discussion on purpose..)

I think there is a certain amount of learning that has to happen before you can solve a big movie's problems - which is what writing a good score ultimately is all about. It's not writing a symphony or concert music. Apples and oranges. By having all the programmers, arrangers, assistants, additional composers - whatever you want to call the team - in the room with the director, the editor and the music editor, they get to be part of the process. They contribute, but - like everyone else there at that moment - they get to learn and explore. Ultimately, that time, that apprenticeship in filmmaking - that hanging out with some of the great directors without the distraction and pressure of carrying the can - is going to be as valuable to advance their craft and their career as a credit.
I could go on, but then i wouldn't get any music written  But, yes, it's a big, complicated subject.

Oh, one more thought...My scores - for better or worse - always sound like "Zimmer" scores, no matter who else works with me. But I really try to be fair and give credit where credit is due...and, like everything to do with this subject, I've just scratched the surface.

...Lastly, to misquote the great Hunter S. Thompson:

"The movie business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

-Hz-


----------



## dannthr

Actually, I think it's admirable that you are open about the collaboration and the true scope of these sorts of productions--I hope that it can encourage progression on recognizing how much work actually goes into a score.


----------



## MoonFlare

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Giving someone a credit on a big movie is always a huge negotiation with the studio. Basically, the studios are trying to keep the end crawl as short as possible, because it actually costs them money in film stock, prints, etc. There is a really awkward 3/4 bar in an endtitle piece in a Disney movie I did, because they had an absolute rule about length of end credits. That extra beat just had to go  There was a mathematical formula about how much they where going to safe a year by keeping their end-crawl on all their movies a certain length. We managed to change that, but it took years...



Are you serious? This sounds completely weird to me. It may be that I misunderstood. You're actually saying that when producing a, e.g. $25+ million film, it's not possible to include all people that deserve a credit because it costs too much to include some lines of text at the end of the film?


----------



## Peter Alexander

Daryl @ Tue Jan 08 said:


> A quick question; please could someone explain to me, in terms of a composer's writing, what "work for hire" means. Ta.
> 
> D



It has to do with taxes. A work for hire means you're not an employee. So if you're brought in as a work-for-hire, that means before Jan 31 of the year following you did the work (2013 for 2012) you receive a form called 1099 IF you earned more than $600USD from that client. 

Work for hire is another phrase for freelancer which is another way of saying what most don't want to hear - entrepreneur which is what composers are. You are running your own business out of which you must calculate your taxes, social security, and being self-employed your own matching employers contribution to your social security (called FICA over here).

Since the majority of composers are not employees (unless they're tenured at a college or work for a game company, etc) you're also required to have your own med ins plan, retirement plan (pensions in British speak) etc.


----------



## Rctec

That is exactly what I'm saying. Think about how many departments there are, how that number has increased with cg...a seven minute end title isn't that unusual. When we hand in our full list of credits, the first thing that happens is, the department at the studio in charge of endtitle credits, plus the legal department, cuts it way down. Some departments have union contracts that guarantee them their credits. thats why catering always does better then music. "Additional Composers" dont have a union to stand up for them. We then have to negotiate, beg - whatever, to get as many credits as possible on. It's not how much the movie cost to make, it's how long the print gets. If we are on IMAX, like TDKR, we have absolute physical limits to how long the film can be, to the second, since the platter that holds the film can only take a very precise amount of wait before it spills off the end, before it gets to heavy. This, of course, doesn't apply to digital. But still - it's seven minutes of music someone has to pay recording costs, royalties, etc. if I had taken just two names off on "Inception", you'd have known if he really still was in a dream. But, alas, we ran out of space on the IMAX reel


----------



## Rctec

I was responding to Moonflare's question...
Hz


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

Fascinating! Always, wondered about the end credits in terms of them going to so much length to cover credits and so much additional music. 

However, most scores just cut paste the main themes or cues from the movie itself which is completely fine of course.

Tanuj.


----------



## Markus S

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Some departments have union contracts that guarantee them their credits. thats why catering always does better then music.



And you have to admit : food IS more important than music.

I was always shocked to see that you can have an instrumental soloist playing all along the movie and not getting a credit for his work at the end. Comparing this to the credit an actor gets, it is quite weird.


----------



## Rctec

Ah! But that is where the agent comes in! I had no problem getting Joshua Bell a credit...


----------



## Kejero

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Some departments have union contracts that guarantee them their credits. thats why catering always does better then music



Hey, I have noticed that! :D Never quite got that. 



> if I had taken just two names off on "Inception", you'd have known if he really still was in a dream. But, alas, we ran out of space on the IMAX reel



I KNEW they should've gotten John Williams instead! 

This whole subject makes me wonder though about what's happened to opening credits? Are they just out of fashion, or is it possibly as simple as budgetary reasons there too?


----------



## MoonFlare

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> That is exactly what I'm saying. Think about how many departments there are, how that number has increased with cg...a seven minute end title isn't that unusual. When we hand in our full list of credits, the first thing that happens is, the department at the studio in charge of endtitle credits, plus the legal department, cuts it way down. Some departments have union contracts that guarantee them their credits. thats why catering always does better then music. "Additional Composers" dont have a union to stand up for them. We then have to negotiate, beg - whatever, to get as many credits as possible on. It's not how much the movie cost to make, it's how long the print gets. If we are on IMAX, like TDKR, we have absolute physical limits to how long the film can be, to the second, since the platter that holds the film can only take a very precise amount of wait before it spills off the end, before it gets to heavy. This, of course, doesn't apply to digital. But still - it's seven minutes of music someone has to pay recording costs, royalties, etc. if I had taken just two names off on "Inception", you'd have known if he really still was in a dream. But, alas, we ran out of space on the IMAX reel



I have never thought of including additional end credits as being that problematic. Will this problem propagate to CD soundtrack releases too? That is, can additional people be credited in the CD booklet for a soundtrack, even though these persons were not credited as part of the respective film?


----------



## Inductance

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> When we hand in our full list of credits, the first thing that happens is, the department at the studio in charge of endtitle credits, plus the legal department, cuts it way down.



Wow, I didn't know that. I suppose there's always the soundtrack album for credits, huh? Or the Hal Leonard sheet music book! 

btw, thank you for your in-the-trenches insight. I always enjoy lurking and reading. Also, I don't think anyone can rightfully accuse you of not giving credit where it's due (eg. Lisa Gerrard in Gladiator), so thanks for that as well.


----------



## mverta

Having one's idealism and naivete slowly drained from one's soul is part of the benefit of working in Hollywood. They get replaced with wiser, more useful stuff.

_Mike


----------



## Markus S

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Ah! But that is where the agent comes in! I had no problem getting Joshua Bell a credit...



Luckily so, this is one of the most beautiful moments when Joshua Bell plays the theme of "demons & angles".

However I have already read all the film credits in some films to know who was playing in vain..


----------



## dgburns

mverta @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Having one's idealism and naivete slowly drained from one's soul is part of the benefit of working in Hollywood. They get replaced with wiser, more useful stuff.
> 
> _Mike



agreed.the business of show.

There have been times when I got bumped even after having a Head Credit clause.

I have to say I've witnessed that Head Credits DO get noticed,and it does help.(even in TV land)


----------



## Rctec

So Mike Verta! I put my cynical Hunter S. Thompson thing in, and he responds with grace and wisdom. But he's profoundly right. You get past the cynicism and end up with these relationships with directors that are very creative, unbelievably encouraging - and best of all - they help you write new and differently, make you dig for something good inside yourself...and, best of all, encourage you to shoot the demons of self-doubt and neurotic criticism dead.
Yes, within reason, you can put all the names on to your cd. I try to credit all the players there. I always put the other composers that work here at RCP in to the "Thank You's" . Most of the time they won't even have seen the film or heard the music, but they are part of our "Band" here, and a credit on a "Thank You" on a successful movie has never hurt anybody.
But who buys CDs? Credits are getting eroded on ITunes and every other form of digital media. I think Chris Nolan actually mentioned Lorne Balfe in the "TDKR" liner notes (I can't quite remember...he mentioned him somewhere)...but I have never heard anybody say anything about it.


----------



## germancomponist

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> ... You get past the cynicism and end up with these relationships with directors that are very creative, unbelievably encouraging - and best of all - they help you write new and differently, make you dig for something good inside yourself...and, best of all, encourage you to shoot the demons of self-doubt and neurotic criticism dead.



I like it to read this!



> Yes, within reason, you can put all the names on to your cd. I try to credit all the players there. I always put the other composers that work here at RCP in to the "Thank You's" . Most of the time they won't even have seen the film or heard the music, but they are part of our "Band" here, and a credit on a "Thank You" on a successful movie has never hurt anybody.
> But who buys CDs? Credits are getting eroded on ITunes and every other form of digital media. I think Chris Nolan actually mentioned Lorne Balfe in the "TDKR" liner notes (I can't quite remember...he mentioned him somewhere)...but I have never heard anybody say anything about it.



+1


----------



## MoonFlare

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Yes, within reason, you can put all the names on to your cd. I try to credit all the players there. I always put the other composers that work here at RCP in to the "Thank You's" . Most of the time they won't even have seen the film or heard the music, but they are part of our "Band" here, and a credit on a "Thank You" on a successful movie has never hurt anybody.
> But who buys CDs? Credits are getting eroded on ITunes and every other form of digital media. I think Chris Nolan actually mentioned Lorne Balfe in the "TDKR" liner notes (I can't quite remember...he mentioned him somewhere)...but I have never heard anybody say anything about it.



Thanks for sharing your insight! Well, the true passionate music listeners do - those who care.


----------



## gsilbers

Rctec @ Wed Jan 09 said:


> ...I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but just some random and incomplete thoughts from the battlefield...(in bad English)
> 
> Giving someone a credit on a big movie is always a huge negotiation with the studio. Basically, the studios are trying to keep the end crawl as short as possible, because it actually costs them money in film stock, prints, etc. There is a really awkward 3/4 bar in an endtitle piece in a Disney movie I did, because they had an absolute rule about length of end credits. That extra beat just had to go  There was a mathematical formula about how much they where going to safe a year by keeping their end-crawl on all their movies a certain length. We managed to change that, but it took years...
> 
> I try, when ever possible, to give everyone a credit. I try to be fair, but sometimes it's just not possible. The "additional composer" credit inevitably means that someone in some other department needs to give up their credit.
> 
> The legal departments are very strict about the type of credit one can get. For example, "producer" means something quite different in the record business then in the film business. ...And yes, I was reminded by an executive once that it's called "show-business", not "show-friends". You are stuck with things like "Music Supervisor". John Williams once said to me that the words "music" and "supervision" should never be uttered in the same sentence. Of course he's right, but that doesn't mean that there aren't a whole bunch of very creative individuals contributing to the score as "music supervisors"...
> 
> I never hide my collaborators. But as the composer, I'm the main architect. That means being responsible for the intitial idea, the style, themes, orchestration and instrumentation. The Big Idea. But in a two hour-plus score, especially the way I work, you need a bit of help. Writing with pencil and paper is far more efficent and fast than programming every note and doing complete mock-ups. But a pencil and paper score means that you can never have a truly informed conversation with the director until you get to the orchestra session, and I don't like making changes with a whole orchestra sitting there, twiddling their thumbs. The orchestra sessions for me are about giving the score energy through performance, and you can't do that if the composer and director are arguing about the notes or orchestration. Plus, I like the hybrid sound. Call me crazy...
> 
> And the easiest - and fairest way in my oppinion - is to have everybody present at all the meetings with the director. No ghosts. Ghosts are devoid of souls, egos and oppinons. Ghosts have no emotional investments in their work. But at the end of the day, I have the final responsibility, I take the blame if the score doesn't work out. Financially and creatively. And with 200 mill budgets and impossible deadlines, that's quite a weight on anyone's shoulder, and it takes a while to learn how to think freely and creatively out of the box under that sort of pressure.
> 
> I've been a ghost myself (on really big movies). Sometimes, you just have to chip in for no credit, money or royalties. And it's actually quite liberating to not have the big credit and all the exposure to critisism that comes with it. (cue-sheet is far to big, complicated and fraught with pitfalls a subject for my little post right now, so I'm ignoring that part of the discussion on purpose..)
> 
> I think there is a certain amount of learning that has to happen before you can solve a big movie's problems - which is what writing a good score ultimately is all about. It's not writing a symphony or concert music. Apples and oranges. By having all the programmers, arrangers, assistants, additional composers - whatever you want to call the team - in the room with the director, the editor and the music editor, they get to be part of the process. They contribute, but - like everyone else there at that moment - they get to learn and explore. Ultimately, that time, that apprenticeship in filmmaking - that hanging out with some of the great directors without the distraction and pressure of carrying the can - is going to be as valuable to advance their craft and their career as a credit.
> I could go on, but then i wouldn't get any music written  But, yes, it's a big, complicated subject.
> 
> Oh, one more thought...My scores - for better or worse - always sound like "Zimmer" scores, no matter who else works with me. But I really try to be fair and give credit where credit is due...and, like everything to do with this subject, I've just scratched the surface.
> 
> ...Lastly, to misquote the great Hunter S. Thompson:
> 
> "The movie business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
> 
> -Hz-



you should see the syndication rules for end credits. 
networks want 30 second end credits. (unreadable - realy fukin fast) 
but there is a legal clauses that says that the big name poeple have to stay for a longer period before the 30 second credits. which each artist negotiate in their contracts.


----------



## MacQ

Lots of great posts here.

For what it's worth, and at risk of sounding like a shill, I personally love ghosting! It's entirely what I've built my new company around. StudioWeapon is a hired-gun operation for other creatives who need a specific sound, or a chameleon to churn out wallpaper cues, or to embellish/rework existing themes so they'll shoehorn into a new, last-minute cut revision, or to add fuel to the creative embers.

I get a lot of pleasure out of collaborative work. Being the magic bullet at the 11th hour is a nice feeling, as is not having to carry the entire weight of a major endeavour (like a feature film) on your back for 6 months. And I love the variety and lack of long-term commitment. It appeals to my short attention span. 

~Stu

Oh, and ... I'm on Cubase, and I'm fast. :wink:


----------



## dgburns

MacQ @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Lots of great posts here.
> 
> Oh, and ... I'm on Cubase, and I'm fast. :wink:



personally I would have gone with-

I can sweep the floors,keep my mouth shut,and make a mean latte....

but hey,that's just me..... :shock: 

(just teasing...)


----------



## Rctec

You can make a mean latte?!?! That's how I started! I could work Stanley Myers' esspresso machine, and he gave me a job!


----------



## FriFlo

Yeah, Hans! That is what you need all those poor bastards in remote control for! 
o-[][]-o 0oD


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## Waywyn

Speaking about end credits, ... on German TV they have become that "unnecessary" at all, that they completely get rid of them and sneak through the most important persons (meaning three of the main actors ) in lightspeed while already blending in a preview for the next spot or simply show ads ... but hey, for sure a new product is so much more important about the crew producing and creating a movie ~o)


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## jeffc

I think looking at ghosting for credit/money/etc. is short sighted. Even if you do get taken advantage of, you pick up so much learning just by osmosis by being part of the 'real' experience that you just couldn't get by not doing it. If you get good money, credit, great, but there is still much to be gained. And honestly, I don't think additional music credits are really that helpful anyway. More important is learning the experience and process without your name on the line. Obviously, if you're ghosting assisting on RC type blockbusters - how the hell else would you get to see how stuff is done at the highest levels like that? They don't just hand those things out to anybody, so to be in that environment is better than any film school or music program. But even if you ghost at a smaller level, the experience is just as valid. I worked for a few guys, got them coffee at 4am, took out trash, oh and got to ghost some cues for full orchestra and see how it worked - from writing, getting to orchestrators, hearing how stuff is different from demo to real, what works what doesn't, and all that was just picked up by being there. When I finally started getting my own gigs, having that stuff in my head was invaluable - and whether I got cue sheet on something or had my name in the end crawl was irrelevant - the experience was much more valuable.

Jeff


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## dgburns

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> You can make a mean latte?!?! That's how I started! I could work Stanley Myers' esspresso machine, and he gave me a job!



funny,it sounds like we're all working at Sbucks....and yes,the wife has me froth the milk for coffee now.I'm whipped


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## Ned Bouhalassa

While watching the 2-hour Jerry Goldsmith interview, I heard him talk with fondness of the days when a bunch of composers would be on contract with a given network, sometimes working in the same building. He says they would regularly listen in on each other (in secret?) from behind a closed door, getting ideas, or at least having an idea of what the 'competition' was up to. But it sounds like it was more like a fraternity, a band of brothers, if you will. And so that can be gained too from working within a composing team framework.

For many of us, though, I suppose this forum and soundcloud is the closest we come to this! :D


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## rgames

Steve Jobs was a ghost inventor. People seem to be OK with that fact.

So why worry about ghost writing of any form?

Here's the bottom line: nobody every had a gun held to his head and was told to ghost write. If the deal is good, take it. If not, don't take it. Simple.

The percentage of people who actually have ownership of their IP is exceedingly small. Pretty much any employee of any business entity gives up his right to his IP when he agrees to employment. So, if you work for Apple, or Microsoft, or Ford, or GE, or whoever, that corporation almost always owns all the ideas you generate as an employee. Furthermore, they almost always own any ideas you generate on your own time if you came up with them as a result of access to the corporation's resources.

That's how it works. Again, if you don't like the deal, nobody is forcing you to take the gig.

rgames


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## Daniel James

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> You can make a mean latte?!?! That's how I started! I could work Stanley Myers' esspresso machine, and he gave me a job!



I can't make coffee for shit. True story 

-DJ


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## Rctec

True, Daniel, True!!!


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## Daniel James

Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> True, Daniel, True!!!



In my defense I can order a mean McDonald's!

-DJ


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## cc64

dgburns @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> I can sweep the floors,keep my mouth shut,and make a mean latte....
> 
> but hey,that's just me..... :shock:
> 
> (just teasing...)



Yeah but can you do this /\~O


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## Kralc

Daniel James @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> In my defense I can order a mean McDonald's!


Damn it Daniel, I wanted a _nice_ McDonald's. 8)


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## Inductance

Waywyn @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Speaking about end credits, ... on German TV they have become that "unnecessary" at all, that they completely get rid of them and sneak through the most important persons (meaning three of the main actors ) in lightspeed while already blending in a preview for the next spot or simply show ads ... but hey, for sure a new product is so much more important about the crew producing and creating a movie ~o)



It's similar here in the US. A few years ago, TV shows started skipping the longer intro, instead going with a title screen that might be only 3 or 4 seconds long (also, too bad for composers and their title themes!). Opening credits are shown after the show has started. And the end credits are as you describe. Sometimes, the show is still on and they're already showing the credits, or they'll just blast through them while giving previews of the next show.


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## dgburns

cc64 @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> dgburns @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can sweep the floors,keep my mouth shut,and make a mean latte....
> 
> but hey,that's just me..... :shock:
> 
> (just teasing...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but can you do this /\~O
Click to expand...


Yikes!
I don't even wanna know >8o


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## dgburns

Daniel James @ Thu Jan 10 said:


> Rctec @ Thu Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> True, Daniel, True!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my defense I can order a mean McDonald's!
> 
> -DJ
Click to expand...


latte shmatte

Latte's are overrated anyway

( but the trick is to get the water/steam HOT,and hit the beans fast,or the result can get bitter..er....i mean,if yer askin that is...)


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## Markus S

In my experience credits are overrated anyway. What brings the work in, is "having worked with people". People that have good experience working with you will work again with you. 

I say on purpose not "knowing people" brings the work in, because it often doesn't help to just know people and have a good time with them. I have worked many times without credit and couldn't care less. Sometimes I get the credit with 2 or 3 other composers or alone and it didn't help in any way finding new jobs, only to keep the precious ones.

Also there is a phenomena that when you have a few credits, who cares if you have 10, 30 or 50?

So why not "ghost" write (without credit) from time to time? I don't see this as a problem, but it's everyones personal choice.


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## Tanuj Tiku

I still like to believe that its mostly do to with how good your music is. In the end, its always the ideas, the hard work and just plain good music.

Probably, in the next 15 years, I will finally be able to write good film music. Till then, I have lots of years to make mistakes and learn. Or it could take forever to get it right!


Tanuj.


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## germancomponist

rgames @ Fri Jan 11 said:


> Steve Jobs was a ghost inventor. People seem to be OK with that fact.
> 
> So why worry about ghost writing of any form?
> 
> Here's the bottom line: nobody every had a gun held to his head and was told to ghost write. If the deal is good, take it. If not, don't take it. Simple.
> 
> The percentage of people who actually have ownership of their IP is exceedingly small. Pretty much any employee of any business entity gives up his right to his IP when he agrees to employment. So, if you work for Apple, or Microsoft, or Ford, or GE, or whoever, that corporation almost always owns all the ideas you generate as an employee. Furthermore, they almost always own any ideas you generate on your own time if you came up with them as a result of access to the corporation's resources.
> 
> That's how it works. Again, if you don't like the deal, nobody is forcing you to take the gig.
> 
> rgames



+1

So simple...


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## mverta

Okay, I'll throw this in: 

For a guy who's never done an "A" feature, I've had an awful lot of time having my own music performed with 80-plus-piece orchestras, in top rooms, with Shawn Murphy at the console. Ghosting is the reason. 

Here's the story: I had opened my own post-production studio, and made a deal with the Devil, who in this case, happened to be a good friend who'd just gotten hired by a major studio to run its "in-house" post-production facility as a cost-cutting measure. But when he got on the lot, he discovered his employees were largely union guys with marginal talent. So he said, basically, if his crew could take the credit, I could do the work at my place, and get the money; this being studio money, it was going to be a lot of money.

I had overhead, and ambition, so I took the deal, but I also had a plan.

For the better part of the next 7 years, I was doing major theatrical trailers for A features almost single-handedly. I would do the edit, write the copy, engineer the voice-over sessions for Don LaFontaine or whomever, do the motion graphics, write the music, and supervise the mix (usually at SSI Hollywood). I was competing against - and often stealing the work from - major facilities, and would be doing the work of entire teams all by myself. It burned through my first marriage and gave me chronic health issues for awhile, but it also meant that I had more money to work with than any composer would ever have been given for advertising work. A composer for a trailer (in that day, at least) might get 3-10k for the trailer cue. But the total budget for these trailers was much, much higher. Since it was all coming into my place, and I was doing all the work, I could allocate it however I wanted. So I would spend the money on orchestras.

The experience was invaluable, to say the least. But every day I had to face the fact that entire teams of people were taking credit for what I did. They'd give themselves "award breakfasts," they'd get write-ups in trade papers; I have a room in my house filled with all these stupid advertising awards with my name at the bottom of a list of strangers who had nothing to do with the project. I never got to go to one advertising show and be recognized for having actually done all the work.

When I would go over to the studio for meetings, I had to pretend to be either, "the graphics guy," "the music guy," "an engineer," "the editor," or someone else, depending on which executive was going to be in the meeting. The idea there was that if the head of the studio or the creative director knew it was just one outside guy doing their entire marquee film trailer they 1) probably wouldn't have believed it, or 2) freaked out and fired both me and my friend.


At the end of my run there, having failed to keep in mind how grateful I should have been for the trade-off; feeling mostly taken for granted and abused - in a deal _I_ agreed to(!) - I eventually snapped and pulled the curtain back.

It was when another team tried to take credit for the logo for _Superman Returns_, which I had done overnight in an emergency session with a friend; work which had not only been embraced by Bryan Singer, who was notoriously hard to please, but had saved a bunch of shit from going down at the 11th hour, and would soon be plastered all over the planet. I had let my ghosting work get the better of me, had become too self-righteous and entitled, and couldn't take it anymore. As soon as I made moves to tell the studio who I really was, I was quickly shut down.

My friend left the studio shortly thereafter, and I've never worked on the lot since. There's no political animosity or reputation problem there, but there are no contacts there, either. Nobody ever knew who I was or what I'd done. And I never gave myself the chance to parlay that into something else, gracefully, either.



So the moral of the story is that being willing to let credit and recognition take a back seat to experience and opportunity can be priceless. But you have to keep it in balance, and you have to keep in mind the benefit of what you're doing, otherwise your ego, too long suppressed, will rise up with a fury and bury you in your own sense of entitlement. 


For the guys who have the amazing opportunity to work with Hans at RC, for example, the situation is nearly ideal; not only do they get the experience, but they're working for a guy who really _does_ try to give them credit, and is up-front about the situation. It's extremely rare; an ethical heart in the often soulless body of Hollywood. And it's part of why he and his team are so successful. 

Being a ghost is fun; you get to pass through solid walls. Just be sure to live a little, too, and you'll be alright.


_Mike


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## reddognoyz

Mike's story is sort of similar to my own, in that I started writing for a music producer, Tom, who built quite a reputation as a composer/producer. He was a very good blues guitarist/bass player but his musical expertise didn't extend much beyond 12 bar blues and folk music, so he hired other composers to do the writing, he gave notes, got revisions and passed the work off essentially as his own. I was okay with it for a few years, and also burned through a first marriage working ALL the time. 
It was a fair deal, I was making good dough, I was getting afm and ascap on the work. I left when I had grown beyond being comfortable with being the "behind the curtain" guy. The breaking point for me was having to address in-house notes before the client had seen my work. I felt I had as much or more insight as Tom, and I needed to move on. 

When I quit, I had a meeting with Tom,who was a VERY stand-up guy, and he recommended I call all his clients and see if any of them would work with me directly. One did, a big one, still it was tough when I wasn't being spoon fed work anymore. I can't overemphasize that part of our deal. He HAD the work. I meet so many young composers and their attitude is; "I've studied and woodshed, I got a bitchin' studio, all I need is the work. Well that's the whole deal, the other stuff is a minor detail, inconsequential compared to having clients and work.

Anyway it's a great way to jumpstart your music career IMHO, but you need to be prepared that you will probably feel abused at some point.


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## dgburns

to Mike-
I read your post almost with sadness.You're obviously a very talented guy to have taken on so many roles successfully.

Also,sounds like you want in to RC,if so,godspeed my friend....

but you might need to write some "rubba dub wub step" and possibly learn to run that damn espresso machine they keep under lock and key...you know,the one they got from poor ol Stanley way back in the day....

you wouldn't be making ghost coffee for long I suspect! :?


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## mverta

I have zero regrets; way too grateful for the lessons learned to wish it had gone differently. 

And as for RC, I am 100% certain that if Hans wants me, he knows where to find me. I love him either way. 

_Mike


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## dgburns

mverta @ Tue Jan 15 said:


> I have zero regrets; way too grateful for the lessons learned to wish it had gone differently.
> 
> And as for RC, I am 100% certain that if Hans wants me, he knows where to find me. I love him either way.
> 
> _Mike



good on ya for that-peace

and I also like" die große minimalistischen",but don't tell 'em I said it,might get to his head!...luckily he doesn't know where to find ME :mrgreen:


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