# Any experiences with ThinkSpace postgraduate courses?



## Sam0311

Hi everyone, I hope you're all well. I wasn't really sure where to post this so apologies if it's in the wrong place.

I would like to ask if any of you have had any experience with ThinkSpace Education's postgraduate courses (or any other postgraduate courses) and if so, how beneficial was it for you in developing your own skills as a composer, and in helping you to make a career for yourself? I am thinking about applying for the MA in Professional Media Composition but since it's such a huge commitment, I thought it would be helpful to have a discussion so I can try to work out if it's the right thing for me.

For a bit of context, my background is more geared towards the pop industry and playing in bands. My main instrument is the bass guitar and I have a degree in Professional Musicianship. I graduated from university 2 years ago and since then have been struggling to find the right direction for myself. I think writing for media is something I've naturally been edging towards for a while now but because my background has been more performance based rather than composition and production, I don't feel I currently have the ability to offer my services out.

I guess what I'm looking to gain from the course would be the necessary skills and confidence to begin to make a career for myself and help push me in the right direction.

I look forward to hearing from you, any input will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers


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## wst3

I can't speak specifically to the post grad courses, although I too am thinking about them.

I have taken a couple of their other courses, and so far I've found them to be well prepared, and overall quite helpful. (The exception is the music theory course, which was a little more of an intro than I had hoped. It would be outstanding for someone that had no music theory training.)

Might I suggest taking one or two of the classes to see if you like their approach?


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## Sam0311

Thanks for the response. That's not a bad idea to be fair, I don't know what's stopped me from doing that. I know this is a hard question to answer since it depends on what you're looking to learn, but are there any of the courses in particular you would recommend?


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## JohnG

Sam0311 said:


> I guess what I'm looking to gain from the course would be the necessary skills and confidence to begin to make a career for myself and help push me in the right direction.



No doubt skills and confidence are indispensable. Of the two, it seems that confidence is the main one...

I think @wst3 's suggestion is a good one. There are quite a few free classes out there that you could sample to see if they are the right level and flavour for you. Guy's approach is, I would think, exactly what you would want as a would-be career composer in media; he's practical, unpretentious, and realistic about the difficulties.

Most people take 10 years to get anywhere near supporting themselves financially from music. It's debatable whether that's because it takes 10 years to develop a network and the requisite skill set, on the one hand or, on the other hand, it simply takes that amount of time to develop one's confidence and personal conviction that one has something unique to offer and 'can get the job done.'

Guy has one other quality that I think is possibly the indispensable key: he's likable. 

So be likable!


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## wst3

My first course was their Blueprint course, it was a ton of fun, and I still revisit it. Be aware, it is about as cliche as you can imagine (think ostinatos and taikos for action) but that's kind of the point. Guy does a fantastic job of analyzing current trends and then presenting them as, well, as blueprints.

I've also sampled both the template in a weekend and orchestration in a weekend classes, and as soon as I can carve out a weekend where I can really focus I will take the template class. I think it is probably good prep for the orchestration class.

As John points out, Guy is an excellent teacher, and his pragmatism strikes me as sincere and well balanced.

If nothing else, the Blueprint course will get you to write short pieces in a variety of styles, which is worth the price of admission.


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## D Halgren

@jononotbono may be able to add something to this discussion.


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## Sam0311

JohnG said:


> No doubt skills and confidence are indispensable. Of the two, it seems that confidence is the main one...
> 
> I think @wst3 's suggestion is a good one. There are quite a few free classes out there that you could sample to see if they are the right level and flavour for you. Guy's approach is, I would think, exactly what you would want as a would-be career composer in media; he's practical, unpretentious, and realistic about the difficulties.
> 
> Most people take 10 years to get anywhere near supporting themselves financially from music. It's debatable whether that's because it takes 10 years to develop a network and the requisite skill set, on the one hand or, on the other hand, it simply takes that amount of time to develop one's confidence and personal conviction that one has something unique to offer and 'can get the job done.'
> 
> Guy has one other quality that I think is possibly the indispensable key: he's likable. So be likable!




I really enjoy watching Guy's YouTube channel, great mix of entertainment and practical information, maybe I will have to look into taking one of his other courses first. It's funny I actually didn't make the connection at first when I discovered ThinkSpace, made it all the more appealing when I realized it was Guys school.

That's an interesting thought, I've come to realise self doubt is perhaps one of the biggest obstacles creatives face.

I try to be likeable 😂


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## dzilizzi

D Halgren said:


> @jononotbono may be able to add something to this discussion.


I was going to say that too. I believe he took their graduate course and is now working in the industry. I do think you need a good basic music education to do the post graduate degree and be able to write basic music or it will overwhelm you. At least that is the impression I got.

Guy has a lot of free training on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/thinkspaceeducation - I really enjoy watching his short trainings on putting music together. 

He does wave his arms around a lot though! (I believe there is a drinking game on that!)


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## Sam0311

wst3 said:


> My first course was their Blueprint course, it was a ton of fun, and I still revisit it. Be aware, it is about as cliche as you can imagine (think ostinatos and taikos for action) but that's kind of the point. Guy does a fantastic job of analyzing current trends and then presenting them as, well, as blueprints.
> 
> I've also sampled both the template in a weekend and orchestration in a weekend classes, and as soon as I can carve out a weekend where I can really focus I will take the template class. I think it is probably good prep for the orchestration class.
> 
> As John points out, Guy is an excellent teacher, and his pragmatism strikes me as sincere and well balanced.
> 
> If nothing else, the Blueprint course will get you to write short pieces in a variety of styles, which is worth the price of admission.



The Blueprint course sounds interesting, will have to take a closer look at it, thank you 🙂


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## Sam0311

dzilizzi said:


> I was going to say that too. I believe he took their graduate course and is now working in the industry. I do think you need a good basic music education to do the post graduate degree and be able to write basic music or it will overwhelm you. At least that is the impression I got.
> 
> Guy has a lot of free training on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/thinkspaceeducation - I really enjoy watching his short trainings on putting music together.
> 
> He does wave his arms around a lot though! (I believe there is a drinking game on that!)



I think I've seen some posts from @jononotbono regarding ThinkSpace when I was first researching the courses but these were from like 2016 when he was studying, would be interesting to hear what he has to say now.

I like to think I have a fairly good understanding of music, I've had some feedback while exchanging emails with ThinkSpace and they didn't say anything to suggest my music was not at a high enough standard for the course, I'm by no means as good as I'd like to be though, I'm quite aware of my limitations. I think one thing I might struggle with is speed. 

I've heard about that drinking game 😂


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## Rory

The first time that I saw a Guy Michelmore video, I thought "Who _is_ this guy?" His Wikipedia entry goes some way to providing an answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Michelmore He's a character, and I enjoy his videos.

There are a couple of his short courses that I would consider taking. Are the discounts shown on the web site time-limited, or are they permanent and just part of how the courses are marketed?


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## ChrisSiuMusic

Guy is definitely the uncle you've always wanted. Upbeat, cheerful, and just overall a positive individual. I think we all want a little Guy in our lives.


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## Akarin

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Guy is definitely the uncle you've always wanted. Upbeat, cheerful, and just overall a positive individual. I think we all want a little Guy in our lives.



Nah. More than this: we all want to BE Guy :-D


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## Sam0311

Babaghanoush said:


> There are some useful insight in this related thread...
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...position-for-masters-mmus.94673/#post-4581428
> 
> Cathbad's post in particular.


Thanks for this 🙂


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## jononotbono

God, I've been tagged so many times. This isn't about Audeze LCDX headphones again is it? 

Jokes(?) aside, I've literally just got back from driving from Florida to Upstate NY so I need a few moments (and beers) to collect my thoughts about this stuff. Been a long day!


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## Rory

Akarin said:


> Nah. More than this: we all want to BE Guy :-D



If you've lived in the UK, maybe not. As much as I sometimes enjoy his videos, Mr. Michelmore comes off as a well-known English "type", a garrulous, slightly eccentric member of the posh, aspiring upper class. His father was a famous BBC journalist and news anchor, honoured by the Queen as a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE). Guy Michelmore went to public school (called private school in the U.S.) and then to Oxford. He lives in a very well-off community, as should be clear from his videos, that has been a Conservative Party stronghold for a century. Indeed, the Conservative Party has won the area in every single election since 1924.

It's a small world. I've spent a fair amount of time on the Isle of Wight, where @jononotbono, who attended Think Space, is from. Wight is a short ferry ride across a body of water called The Solent from where Guy Michelmore lives and has his school. Mr. Michelmore's famous father was himself from the Isle of Wight.

One thing's for sure, when @jononotbono posts about Think Space, you'll be hearing from someone who knows what he's talking about 

P.S. Here's Wikipedia on Pembroke College, from which Michelmore graduated at Oxford. The "Notable People" section has one or two names that one might recognise, certainly Dr. Samuel Johnson and J.R.R. Tolkien: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembroke_College,_Oxford

Turns out that Guy Michelmore and Pete Buttigieg, candidate to be the Democrats' nominee against Donald Trump, are fellow alumni of the same college.


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## jononotbono

Hey Sam,

Hopefully something I type will help or at the very least guide you in a direction that doesn't confuse you anymore than you must already be feeling...



Sam0311 said:


> I am thinking about applying for the MA in Professional Media Composition but since it's such a huge commitment, I thought it would be helpful to have a discussion so I can try to work out if it's the right thing for me.



I first started studying this exact course at TS. I'm actually still studying at TS, and that's because when I got to the end of the PMC (Professional Media Composition) I wasn't quite ready to stop being a student with TS and wanted to carry on. So, instead of doing the Final Major Project (which is essentially a big part of the final grade - scoring to different short films, learning how to score long form - 30 mins etc - there are so many choices for the final major project that's it's gonna be hard to write about everything in detail) I migrated from the PMC to an MFA in Video Game Audio and Music. I'm still studying my MFA because at the time life got in the way, I had to work in a shitty non music job to pay the bills, girlfriend moved out but still wanted to be together (weird situations) and all of a sudden I couldn't really afford to pay it. So I paused the course. This is one thing that initially drew me to TS. Being able to pause the course. And this is vital because, let's say you are studying and then you suddenly get yourself in a position where you are doing REAL work... not ACADEMIC studies, what are you going to say? "Sorry, I can't take this job because I have an assignment to do for my degree?" No. That would be pathetic. Why even bother studying right? Unless you just wanna be a teacher in a school somewhere. You know what they say about teachers... People that can. Can. People that can't... Teach" Harsh but true (I've done quite a few courses and have 3 degrees (and counting - I'll likely do a PHD just purely so everyone will have to refer to me as Dr J from that point  - nothing to do with perhaps learning something) and I realised that most of them were bullshit and taught by people with degrees with no experience whatsoever other than playing Acoustic covers of Brown Eyed Girl or Sex on Fire in a local watering hole... but they have a degree so they are qualified to teach right? 

Of course, you choose to do the real work. So being able to pause the course and then come back to it, was for me vital. I should say, there is only a certain amount of time you can pause the course for which is something I wasn't told and I know this because I've recently had to start my MFA back up again as I've used all of my available time up to have it on pause. So it's definitely not something that lasts forever. The reason I kept my MFA on pause for so long, is because, just like I have described with the example of getting REAL work, that's what happened to me. Suddenly a juggling act of study and real work. It's difficult BUT totally possible. Depends on you, who you are, what you want, what you make happen - if you can...



Sam0311 said:


> how beneficial was it for you in developing your own skills as a composer, and in helping you to make a career for yourself?



It's been totally beneficial for me. I'll get into some specifics in a bit. Stuff like mocking stuff up, learning different genres, collaboration... there's a lot I had no idea about. And still don't. I literally know know nothing and kind of embarrassed I'm even writing this to be fair. I am a nobody. There are so many amazing composers on VI-C you should pay attention to. For example, HZ flirts here sometimes 

As for making a career for myself... a lot of that is down to me and my personal decisions. Sounds vague but the truth is, no course will ever be "Ok, I studied this course, I know everything I need to know. I'm ready for a career. Even packed my lunch for my first day!" And then the sudden realisation happens in the real world. You, on the dole for 3 months, eating less Pot Noodles than usual and weirdly having enough money to buy weed from your neighbour... "Why aren't any fucking A&R, Producers, or Directors knocking on my door?" I've worked so hard getting to where I am! Disgusting!" Then you get desperate and start looking for short films at Film Colleges, Facebook Groups...


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## jononotbono

Not even cheapskate college film makers that are prepared to give you a credit (a credit for you own work FFS) but have Zero budget because there's apparently money... Even though they all eat food, drive cars, have houses usually better than most... but still have no money. This is another topic altogether but you may be getting a hint here that I find this shit to be disrespectful. Best not even mention you've just invested £5k for some String players as will add emotionality to their "masterpiece" and definitely don't mention the £500 sample library you bought just because there's an aleatoric String FX noise that will make their shit Horror short sound perfect. Yes, not even these wonderful people will be knocking on your door because you have a degree. 


Depends what you want a "career" in? I don't like the word Career. Music is my life. It always has been and always will be. Regardless of earning money from music or not. I'm a selfish person. Music is everything. I mean, don't get me wrong. I get taken advantage of all the time because it's how I am. I like to help people. I like to think other people will help me in the future. We're all in it together right? All trying to do the same thing? Being creative and writing music? I always put people before me. I have countless strangers, on a daily basis, messaging me for all sorts of stuff. Free Cubase templates, advice on how to this, what button will do what with what (Clue here - RTFM ) and I usually am always happy to help people. Especially if they are full of fire and hungry. It's the lazy fuckwits that begin to get exhausting.

I guess a career means you earn a living from music and this is a tough one. Am I making a living from music? Yes. Completely. But it's taken such a long time. About 18 months ago I was driving a Taxi on the Isle of Wight. All my time before now has been working in dead end jobs (whilst being in bands - writing my own music - which is why I'm poor ). I was once upon a time even in the British Army. Done all sorts of horrendous work whilst always with the one dream in my sights. Being a successful musician and composer. There's a good reason to suffer the dead end job. To not have responsibility. To not have a wage that suddenly you depend on. And usually, if you have them, your children and family. I've always put music first. Before anything. And because of this, always making myself, "ready for the moment"... If that moment (opportunity - whatever it may be) ever turns up. At least you can drop everything if you have a dead end job. I did say I'm a selfish person right? You know things are fucked up when all you're thinking about is how to edit your CC data for your latest String library because it's so inconsistent between articulations instead of paying attention to your niece's Christening. What is her name again? 
It's Georgia by the way. Took me a few years to remember her name but only took seconds to learn CC21 is Spitfire Vibrato but why the fuck is Cinesamples set to CC2? Anyway, I'm sorry, I'm rambling and drunk now...


Now I live in New York as I took a job working in a studio (I'll put a link to it at the bottom of this novel). The studio specialises in Immersive Mixing and Mastering. Hugely removed from composition. So why did I take it? More importantly, how did I get the opportunity?


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## jononotbono

Money... I'm only making enough to live and buy the odd sample library/musical instrument/whatever. I'm not rich or anything like that. And this is probably the most important thing I can say about money. I am NOT making my money in music completely with composition. That's still my dream. Sure I make money from composition. But I also make money by working in a recording studio. By doing all sorts of stuff. All sorts of musical stuff and SHIT LOADS of NON MUSICAL STUFF... Like, being that person that collects clients from airports (45 min drive - so you better have conversation right?), making sure Clients have nice meals (that perk is that I often eat well and get to listen to conversations that are well beyond my pay grade - Stuff on Atmos, Sony360, Speaker design... all sorts of stuff that I hope goes into my brain and will one day help with composition), entertaining the clients when the vocalist, or the producer, or the Horn player/any musician are all tracking/recording/mixing etc. So I guess I'm paid for my personality as well. Sometimes my job is nothing more than an intern job. An intern job that has got nothing to do with music. I guess some people would call it a form of slavery (I don't). You're cool with not having a day off for 4 months straight? Doing 20 hr days? Being a phantom but still having to be full of life? Never seeing your family? Friends? (Trick question, you only have a few friends left and they completely understand. The rest were never friends to begin with). Stress levels can be off the chain. So, A SENSE OF HUMOUR is essential. But other times, I'm responsible for all sorts of musical stuff. I get paid to set up ridiculous set ups using Touch Screens, multiple computers, servers, operating Pro Tools, setting up live equipment, discussing studio builds (I have a construction background as well) and last but not limited or scratching the surface with this being last... MAKING COFFEE! haha! Sorry couldn't resist saying that but it's not a myth, be good at making hot fucking drinks for people. I should say, THINKSPACE never once taught me how to make a cup of Tea and Coffee (that's just life experience right? I often think that should be on a syllabus for a course because it's humorous but absolutely bang on )... You read it hear first if suddenly TS suddenly put it on their syllabus!  


Before the Covid pandemic started, we had two legends in the studio recording for an up-and-coming song writer from Holland. Their names are Doug Wimbish and Will Calhoun. Legendary Bassist and Drummer. Check them out if you don't know of them. At the very least, you'll find some great music they been involved with for decades. It blew their minds that I was English and offered them a Cup of Tea. And Doug had lived in London for many years at one point and said, (in an English accent), "That sounds delightful. I trust they are PG Tips?" I smiled and said, "Of course. None of my wares are from Walmart for goodness sake. Who do you think I am? The Queen herself gave them to me before leaving. Please, take your time, but don't take all fucking day. Do you want a Cup or not?" haha. I'm not saying it's wise to behave like that as you'll probably be sacked but being able to READ A ROOM is another essential skill in my current situation. So many different walks of life, so many egos, so much volatility and there's always that ticket back home if you offend. Bye bye! Knowing how to communicate is vital (in any music work).

None of these skills I learned from TS. That's just me. My life experience. My personality. No degree is going to teach you that. So why did studying at TS help me? How beneficial was studying at TS?



Sam0311 said:


> For a bit of context, my background is more geared towards the pop industry and playing in bands. My main instrument is the bass guitar



I have a very similar background. I come from playing Guitar and being in bands. Although when I was little I played Classical Piano (even got to grade 6 by the age of 14 before finding the dark side and fully turning to it - Electric Guitar) and now I can barely play Fur Elise or The Entertainer. Fuck, playing Chopsticks is quite hard now  I also used to also sing in a church choir. I'm mentioning this because I learned how to read music when I was young but I am in no way some kind of amazing sight reader. Far from it. Could I be? Probably yes. But the further down this Rabbit hole you go, you soon become a master of cramming as much stuff into 24 hours a day and realising there just is hardly any time to master anything. If you're already good at something, it's likely this will forever be your strongpoint, your Forte as many may say, but In my opinion, its vital to become great at as many things as possible. Hence why you wanna do this course? It was definitely one reason why I wanted to do it.

The PMC is designed for people like me and what you describe as yourself. People that have likely learned how to play and write music by ear but have neglected musical study and are, to be frank, completely dire with music theory. Since doing the PMC, I've worked on a few feature films and it was when I went Galaxy Studios in Belgium when I realised that if I want to work with Orchestras, I have to start learning this stuff. How else can you communicate with the players?

I'm conscience that I'm digressing a lot and I apologise if this is the most useless post in the history of the internet but I'm just being completely honest and how I feel about all this stuff. If you study the PMC, you will not learn any of this stuff. That's not it's focus. If you want that, then you will need to study the Orchestration MA (name escapes me at the min) but guess what, you will need a solid musical theory background. And that's no surprise. How else are you going to be able to instantly look at scores, analysis them and do what the course asks?

The PMC is, in my opinion designed for one thing. To show you how you can start making money with music. It doesn't show you HOW to make money with music. But it covers different media such as Film, Games, TV, Commercials. Basically the opposite to being in a band whereby you maybe lucky to get a free pint when playing. The PMC opened my eyes to what is out there and what people look for in music that will result in actual MONEY. No "You'll get a wristband, a free Corn on the Cobb and not forgetting all the exposure you deserve at next months village Garlic Festival".


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## jononotbono

The thing to remember (or know if you don't). If you study a Masters degree at TS, you have access to every course they have. This does include Theory courses, Orchestration courses, Videogame Audio and music Courses, composition courses. All sorts of stuff so there's a lot of value in that. It's also for life. Which kind of feels nice considering when you inevitably start writing Library music, it will be your music you give away in perpetuity for basically nothing. 



Sam0311 said:


> I graduated from university 2 years ago and since then have been struggling to find the right direction for myself. I think writing for media is something I've naturally been edging towards for a while now but because my background has been more performance based rather than composition and production, I don't feel I currently have the ability to offer my services out.
> 
> I guess what I'm looking to gain from the course would be the necessary skills and confidence to begin to make a career for myself and help push me in the right direction.




I guess you just need to ask yourself, "What do I want to do?"

If the answer you have, the honest answer is nothing but that one thing. The one thing that makes you feel sick if you can't achieve it, then you know what you want to do. Otherwise it's just gonna be a Plan B type of thing where you give up and drift to something else. If you are (and it sounds like it) at that point where you realise you aren't going to be financially successful by being in a band and you're looking at ways of earning a living in music then great. But you should think about what it is you wanna do. There's no point in just taking someone's advice and churning out Library/production music that you hate. And there's no point in trying tolerant how to compose music for film if you don't actually love film (as in everything about film and story telling). You have to love what you do.

So back to Thinkspace.

What I learned...

Firstly, I had no idea that people even "mocked up" music using sample libraries. It sounds ridiculous saying that at this point but it's true. I used to just write songs and everything had to be live, one take or it wasn't real kind of shit. I'm so glad I moved on from that. I remember a few assignments where I had to "mock up" Guy's music and then the second part of the assignment was to continue the composition. The aim is to teach collaboration. So, Guy (and by the way, Guy is such a fucking great human being. One of the best I have ever met and no doubt will never meet anyone like him - He's more than just a guy. He's a legend Mr Wayne ) writes some music, for example, something that sounds like a knock off from Harry Potter, and then you have to carry the music on. That is, after you have mocked up his music. I had never done that before. It was a struggle and I loved doing it. I very quickly realised that Pandora's box was opening and I infect knew less than nothing. It started making me realise exactly where my place in the world is. And this is important because if you don't know your place (in my case, absolutely fucking nowhere ) how can you possibly build on anything? Other people found this stuff easy and they could mock up the music but they had shite composition ability. Some were great at both. Not many.

One important thing it taught me, and maybe you will appreciate this coming from a band background, is that what you do is not important. Not in the context of, for example, you playing Bass in a Rock band. No longer are your musical decisions the backbone of the music. I'm not a basset, I'm a Guitarist and it soon made me realise that Guitar in a Rock band is just Guitar. You take that Guitar and put it into a film score, and advert, whatever, then all of a sudden there was infinite possibilities and purposes.

The assignments made me try out different stuff. Made me create different music. Made me think about different approaches. Made me question what the point is with anything in music. I'm being brief here as I could talk all day about this stuff but it opened my eyes.

I'll explain why I did the PMC, then some of this may make sense. So, I was in a band and I had just finished writing an album. I got a band together after sending a really basic demo into a Radio 1 "battle of the Bands" type competition and I was really stuck at the time. I didn't have a singer. Didn't have a drummer. My whole life collapsed at the time (laughable now when I think about it but this stuff matters. Why do it otherwise?). So feeling particularly depressed one morning, and my house mate was feeling shit as well, I just opened my fridge and got a Can of Strongbow Cider, walked into my Music Lab and wrote a song using the Piano (instead of reaching for Guitar as I can play that and Piano not so much). After 20 minutes I had the song written. Not finished but the idea, the hook, the main lyrics. Took a few months to finish but the basics were written straight away. Anyway, I ended up submitting this song into this competition. To cut the story short... No band, no anything, just a demo song (oh I forgot to say, I sang on it too - I had no singer and thought "Fuck it!"). To my horror, the song got picked as one of the finalists. I had 3 weeks to get a band together, write another 3songs, and then be ready to play at the battle of the bands. I did. I also won the competition. Which then led to me headlining a festival on the Isle of Wight called The Bestival (Elton John, Kraftwork, Beastie Boys, Bjork - all sorts of people have played it).It was a very ridiculous situation. Especially for someone that has never sung or fronted a band before But it taught me a valuable lesson. Sometimes you have to take a leap of faith. And you always hear someone saying this type of shit. "Take a leap of Faith". Yeah, ok you hippy fuck. I was trying to produce this album for 5 years and with little money it just didn’t happen. So I started looking at other things I love. And I love film. So I started looking at anything that might keep me focussed whilst trying to figure out getting my album finished. That’s when I started thinking about doing a Masters at Thinkspace. Just jump in and see what happens. I instantly caught the bug and realised what I wanted to do. Turns out, jumping into the unknown can really work. It's a crazy place not knowing. I did the same thing just moving to New York. Every day is weird and unknown 

Maybe you should just do the PMC and see what happens? What have you got to lose? Money. Time. Sure. But are you really losing money and time if you give it your all and it changes your life? Maybe it won't change your life and it becomes yet agin another piece of shit course... Unlikely I you throw yourself into it.

You wanna known what the BEST thing that happened to me (other than experiencing how great of cook Guy's wife is - if you go to the open days etc, she cooks the lunches and she's a professional chef. Gobsmacking)... It was MEETING people you will not meet on YOUTUBE 

I'm now friends with so many people that I would likely have never met if I didn't do the PMC. Phenomenal Musicians, players, mixers, engineers, Orchestrators, Sound Designers, Film Producers, game audio and music specialists... The list goes on. I also have met people that weren't really good at anything I've listed but they have become great friends.

Someone I now work with is a film producer. He's a composer but through his own choices has slipped into film production. This turned out to be amazing because I started working with him on a few features and you wanna know what the skill set I had which he needed the most? GUITAR. So, you being a Bass player could be a real ace up your sleeve (if you're any good of course ). I mean come on! Most people pretending to be film composers can't even play an instrument and they have a 5 note keyboard. Ok, so perhaps I'm slightly exaggerating but you get my point. You actually play a musical instrument.

The last point (will this ever end? )...

Did I get my job in New York because of what I learned at TS.

NO.

I essentially got a job because I made a YouTube Video. There's a bit more to it but that's the crux of it. Whilst I was studying the PMC, I decided to look at how to use Touchscreens with Cubase. I spent about 2 years constantly looking at this stuff. I did this mainly because I saw people like HZ using touchscreens to instantly access features and I just wondered why I had never done that previously and again realised I knew nothing. It saves so much time. Anyway, after looking online and being rather depressed that nobody had really shared any of this knowledge, I made a video showing some of that stuff. In a nutshell, someone saw this video, wanted this kind of thing in their studio but didn't have the time to do it themselves and hired me to do it.

Thinkspace actually told me (at the time) that spending so much time learning that stuff was a waste of time and I should concentrate my time on composition. Glad I didn't follow that advice but I don't blame them for saying it. Highly nerdy geeky stuff that has nothing to do with music... Sounds like a music career to be fair!


----------



## jononotbono

If you do decide to do a Masters then the only advice I can offer is what I did. Jump straight into it, Lara Croft Swan Dive into the heart of the unknown and go for it. When I started I instantly bee-lined and shot for that amazing Violinist, the incredible guy with Computers, can't believe she can Orchestrate like that, and he operates a Boom arm on live TV? He's a Film producer? holy shit A jazz Pianist! Man I have no idea about EDM and he is SICK! I have no idea how any of these people do whatever they do, I'm just a fucking Guitarist from the Isle of Wight but they WILL be my friends and somehow this will work! All of a sudden the Bass Guitar becomes a very valuable commodity as you can bet they will look at you in the same way.

And none of this is even touching the course. This is just (hopefully) some of the people you will be surrounded with. You future friends. Consider this a free "networking" lesson 

I know so many people with MA Degrees and they all bitch about how they never learned anything, how the course was shit, the tutors don't know what they are talking about and how DARE they give them a Pass or Merit for their Masterpieces instead of their god given rightful Distinctions.

Basically, they feel like this because they did nothing. They put minimum effort into the course. Left everything to last minute. Had absolutely no connection with anyone or anything to do with the course. At this point, they are doing it for a bit of paper and if that's the reason, fuck that. For the first time ever, their hand wasn't held and they are wondering why they paid so much money to leave empty handed. I know, how positive. 



Anyway, I hope this has been of some help. E-mail Guy. You'll love him straight away I'm sure.

Jono

Here's a link to the studio I work at...

Valhalla Studios New York


----------



## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> No doubt skills and confidence are indispensable. Of the two, it seems that confidence is the main one...
> 
> I think @wst3 's suggestion is a good one. There are quite a few free classes out there that you could sample to see if they are the right level and flavour for you. Guy's approach is, I would think, exactly what you would want as a would-be career composer in media; he's practical, unpretentious, and realistic about the difficulties.
> 
> Most people take 10 years to get anywhere near supporting themselves financially from music. It's debatable whether that's because it takes 10 years to develop a network and the requisite skill set, on the one hand or, on the other hand, it simply takes that amount of time to develop one's confidence and personal conviction that one has something unique to offer and 'can get the job done.'
> 
> Guy has one other quality that I think is possibly the indispensable key: he's likable.
> 
> So be likable!



THIS!

I may have got a little bit carried away 😂


----------



## Sam0311

jononotbono said:


> If you do decide to do a Masters then the only advice I can offer is what I did. Jump straight into it, Lara Croft Swan Dive into the heart of the unknown and go for it. When I started I instantly bee-lined and shot for that amazing Violinist, the incredible guy with Computers, can't believe she can Orchestrate like that, and he operates a Boom arm on live TV? He's a Film producer? holy shit A jazz Pianist! Man I have no idea about EDM and he is SICK! I have no idea how any of these people do whatever they do, I'm just a fucking Guitarist from the Isle of Wight but they WILL be my friends and somehow this will work! All of a sudden the Bass Guitar becomes a very valuable commodity as you can bet they will look at you in the same way.
> 
> And none of this is even touching the course. This is just (hopefully) some of the people you will be surrounded with. You future friends. Consider this a free "networking" lesson
> 
> I know so many people with MA Degrees and they all bitch about how they never learned anything, how the course was shit, the tutors don't know what they are talking about and how DARE they give them a Pass or Merit for their Masterpieces instead of their god given rightful Distinctions.
> 
> Basically, they feel like this because they did nothing. They put minimum effort into the course. Left everything to last minute. Had absolutely no connection with anyone or anything to do with the course. At this point, they are doing it for a bit of paper and if that's the reason, fuck that. For the first time ever, their hand wasn't held and they are wondering why they paid so much money to leave empty handed. I know, how positive.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I hope this has been of some help. E-mail Guy. You'll love him straight away I'm sure.
> 
> Jono
> 
> Here's a link to the studio I work at...
> 
> Valhalla Studios New York



Oh wow dude, thanks so much for this! I'm going to need a minute, I don't want to come back with a half arsed response after you've taken the time to write all that 😬😂


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## JohnG

jononotbono said:


> A SENSE OF HUMOUR is essential.



True -- you had better get one, Jono...


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## D Halgren

@jononotbono You're a prince, dude! Right up there with Charlie! Cheers!


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## agarner32

Well there isn’t much I can add from Jono’s novel on TS, bit I went through the MFA in Composition and Orchestration. Overall I think it is a strong program and can recommend it. It certain’t isn’t without areas that could be improved, but what program isn’t? In my opinion they offer a lot and especially if you are serious and put in the work.

One nice thing about being in one of the degree programs is that you have access for life to all the other courses. I still go back and view them and they are constantly improving and adding courses. I don’t know any other academic program that has this perk.

I had a different motivation for doing the degree than most others. I never intended to be a media composer Or the next HZ, although I had a strong interest in the field. I already have a successful career as a full-time college professor and professional jazz musician. I did the program mostly because having a second graduate degree bumped my salary up significantly thus bumping retirement up as well. Having said this, I took the work very seriously and learned a ton.

By the way, I don’t agree with Jono’s statement about teachers, “Those who can do and those who can’t teach.” I made an extremely good living as a professional musician before I even had a degree or taught. And I can give you a very long list of world-class professional artists in almost every genre that teach. After all Mozart taught and he was pretty decent!

In a nutshell, I had a great experience at TS and highly recommend it. Part of my job is developing curriculum which has to align with state-wide standards in California so I understand the game - TS has those same types of guidelines. I can say with confidence that TS has done a great job in this area. I think they have struck a good balance between the obligatory academia requirements set by admin and practical applications that apply in the real world. Plus it’s a fun program in my opinion.


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## Sam0311

Hey Jono,



jononotbono said:


> As for making a career for myself... a lot of that is down to me and my personal decisions. Sounds vague but the truth is, no course will ever be "Ok, I studied this course, I know everything I need to know. I'm ready for a career. Even packed my lunch for my first day!" And then the sudden realisation happens in the real world. You, on the dole for 3 months, eating less Pot Noodles than usual and weirdly having enough money to buy weed from your neighbour... "Why aren't any fucking A&R, Producers, or Directors knocking on my door?" I've worked so hard getting to where I am! Disgusting!" Then you get desperate and start looking for short films at Film Colleges, Facebook Groups...




I get what you’re saying here for sure. There was kind of this running thing when I was at uni of ‘This uni's shit because I’m not famous yet’, there seems to be a common thing that people feel that just by attending they are destined for greatness. The people that seemed to take the most from their time there are the ones that really applied themselves in the real world, often even ignoring the actual studying and just using the course as a way to network. When the course finishes the momentum will still be there and you won’t be starting from the bottom trying to get work.




jononotbono said:


> Depends what you want a "career" in? I don't like the word Career. Music is my life. It always has been and always will be. Regardless of earning money from music or not.




Over the course of the lockdown I’ve had a lot of time to think about what I want from life, and I guess what it all comes down to is I just want to make music. I’ll try not to go into too much detail but when I left uni I thought I was doing the responsible thing by trying to support myself financially and stupidly entered into a job that ended up being pretty all consuming. It became clear pretty quickly that I struggled to be happy if I wasn't connected to music in some way. I toyed with the idea of ‘giving up’ on music and just pursuing this other line of work as maybe it seemed easier to follow a path that’s a bit more black and white than having the constant feeling of not achieving in what I love but clearly that wasn’t going to work (and of course the further away I got from music the bigger the feeling of not achieving got). I was at this job for the best part of a year, I left over a year ago and I feel I’ve only just began recovering in terms of my creativity and drive in the last few months. I agree ‘career’ maybe isn’t the best choice of word, music is something more than just a ‘career’, there is no real particular end goal, just the need to make music.


I guess what I’m hoping the course will help me with is giving me necessary practical skills I need, finding the right ventures that might help me make a living from music/finding the path that suits me best, and to keep my dream in sight instead of getting bogged down with life.




jononotbono said:


> The thing to remember (or know if you don't). If you study a Masters degree at TS, you have access to every course they have. This does include Theory courses, Orchestration courses, Videogame Audio and music Courses, composition courses. All sorts of stuff so there's a lot of value in that. It's also for life. Which kind of feels nice considering when you inevitably start writing Library music, it will be your music you give away in perpetuity for basically nothing.



I think form what you’re saying, PMC is probably the right course to go for, I think it’s probably the one I’d be least likely to have my head completely under the water with. I like to think my understanding of music theory isn’t awful but I can’t sight read to save my life and not coming from a classical background would for sure leave huge holes in my knowledge. I really like the idea that all of the course material becomes available to you as I agree the more things you can get good at the better. I’m quite intrigued about sound design and music for games, but I don’t think it would be the right choice for me right now to do a full course on them. 



jononotbono said:


> I guess you just need to ask yourself, "What do I want to do?"



This is a hard one for me to answer specifically. Like I said earlier I guess it all comes down to just wanting to make music. My first love was the bass guitar and currently it’s what I’m best at (although I’m a little rusty), but thinking about it, I’ve always been more interested in writing music than just focussing on bass and going the session style of route. Whilst at uni, I began to really develop my interest in writing, production and ‘the bigger picture’. I think my interests began to sway to media composition partly just down to the way I write, I’ve never been so good at writing songs as such, more creating a sound or a feeling? The reaction to my music has never been ‘thats a cool song’ always ‘I can picture this on…’. As time goes on the more my interests in music for media grows. I don’t know I think media composition just feels like it’s what’s right for me and I’m hoping the course will help push me in the right direction.



jononotbono said:


> I very quickly realised that Pandora's box was opening and I infect knew less than nothing.



Funny that isn’t it? I think it’s called the Dunning-Kruger effect? The more you know, the less you know.



jononotbono said:


> I also won the competition. Which then led to me headlining a festival on the Isle of Wight called The Bestival



Mate, that must have been such a crazy experience!



jononotbono said:


> Maybe you should just do the PMC and see what happens? What have you got to lose? Money. Time. Sure. But are you really losing money and time if you give it your all and it changes your life? Maybe it won't change your life and it becomes yet agin another piece of shit course... Unlikely I you throw yourself into it.



Maybe I should just go for it? I’m the sort of person that likes to have time to ponder on things before making a decision, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing but it means I can take a long time to make big decisions, throw in a healthy dose of self doubt and I can avoid doing things that end up being good for me for a long time.



jononotbono said:


> Someone I now work with is a film producer. He's a composer but through his own choices has slipped into film production. This turned out to be amazing because I started working with him on a few features and you wanna know what the skill set I had which he needed the most? GUITAR. So, you being a Bass player could be a real ace up your sleeve (if you're any good of course ). I mean come on! Most people pretending to be film composers can't even play an instrument and they have a 5 note keyboard. Ok, so perhaps I'm slightly exaggerating but you get my point. You actually play a musical instrument.



This is quite encouraging, I often find myself thinking ‘I wish I could do that’ or ‘I wish I’d have learnt piano instead of bass’ for example, it’s quite easy to lose sight of the skills that you do have and what’s unique about you.



jononotbono said:


> Here's a link to the studio I work at...



Looks sick man, seems like you’re on a crazy ride that you’ve no doubt worked extremely hard for. I’ve really enjoyed your response, it’s really interesting hearing from someone that’s ‘been there, done that’. Also been good for helping me to gather my own thoughts, thank so much for this.

Sam


----------



## Rory

agarner32 said:


> In a nutshell, I had a great experience at TS and highly recommend it. Part of my job is developing curriculum which has to align with state-wide standards in California so I understand the game - TS has those same types of guidelines. I can say with confidence that TS has done a great job in this area. I think they have struck a good balance between the obligatory academia requirements set by admin and practical applications that apply in the real world. Plus it’s a fun program in my opinion.



Did you do the MFA long distance or did you go to Chichester?


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## wst3

jononotbono said:


> Here's a link to the studio I work at...
> 
> Valhalla Studios New York


Thoroughly enjoyed your post(s) about the MA/MFA programs at Thinkspace! 

But I need to turn on geek mode - Valhalla??? I believe you recently took delivery of one of Paul Wolff's FIX consoles. That's gotta be utterly fun!


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## agarner32

Rory said:


> Did you do the MFA long distance or did you go to Chichester?


I did the course remotely which was my only option. I have a full-time tenured position at a college in California so it fit perfectly. Although face to face instruction has it's advantages over distance education, I think they covered all the necessary protocols that are usually mandated with DE - things like regular effective contact, accessibility to instructors, fast response times etc.

Edit: I'd also add that if having a degree be fully accredited is important (and it may not be), TS degrees have that covered. I had no problems here in the US getting the UK grades converted to US grades and being recognized as a legitimate degree. This means that (heaven forbid) you decide to enter academia, the graduate degrees will be valid.


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## jononotbono

agarner32 said:


> By the way, I don’t agree with Jono’s statement about teachers, “Those who can do and those who can’t teach.” I made an extremely good living as a professional musician before I even had a degree or taught. And I can give you a very long list of world-class professional artists in almost every genre that teach. After all Mozart taught and he was pretty decent!



Admittedly this is a blanket statement and not always true but there are plenty of people with teaching jobs that have no business teaching anything. You teach music theory. You’re a Great Jazz player. You know your theory. Regardless of how many bits of paper you have and letters to your name, You’re completely qualified (and then some) to teach music theory. This is a great example of someone that can teach. If I had you as a tutor for music theory I would probably be godlike by now! 

But let’s say you took a job at a university with your new fan-dangled MFA certificate and you started teaching a module called “Scoring to Picture” like so many people do! Are you qualified to teach composition for film? Have you worked on any feature films? What credits do you have? If the answer is “I did some modules on my MFA that involved scoring to videos. I also did some short films a while back” etc then you absolutely are not qualified to teach that despite having a nice certificate. It’s all such total bullshit and too many colleges get away with taking people’s money and teaching them a massive load of nonsense. Then you have a cycle of people teaching people just to get degrees and it becomes even more incestuous when that same college that “awarded them” their certificate gives them a job. So all of a sudden you have colleges that have ex students, now teaching the new students essentially how to get bits of paper. And so on. My BTEC, Foundation Degree AMD BA HONS Degree was exactly like this and I swore to myself I’d never fall victim to this shit again. I’m convinced there’s more money being made by colleges and schools than most other areas of the music industry. I’m also not saying that all ex students that get hired by their colleges and Universities aren’t good enough or qualified to teach but no doubt there will be someone that gets very self defensive about all of this. There are exceptions but I’m just saying, do your research before rushing out to pay the charlatans your hard earned money!

I guess people can argue “what makes someone qualified?” all day long so to the OP, something that was very important to me before committing to a Masters degree was to look at the tutors and see what experience they have, what credits they have and then looking at the syllabus And see if it’s something I want to learn.

Man, I’m hungover. Getting older sucks 😂


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## jononotbono

wst3 said:


> Thoroughly enjoyed your post(s) about the MA/MFA programs at Thinkspace!
> 
> But I need to turn on geek mode - Valhalla??? I believe you recently took delivery of one of Paul Wolff's FIX consoles. That's gotta be utterly fun!



You are absolutely correct. Have you heard of Ronald Prent? He is the resident mixing engineer. He moved from Europe (former worked at Galaxy and then Wisseloord Studios) with his wife Darcy Proper (she's a mastering engineer) to work at Valhalla. He designed the Fix Console with Paul Wolff that they have in the main mixing studi. It's amazing. It's basically the world's first analogue Immersive console and you can essentially pan anything (discrete and objects) in any position on all formats (Atmos, Auro3D, Sony 360, Surround, Stereo etc). There is a custom switching system to change formats. All switches are built on relays so audio does not go through unnecessary components. The thing is a work of art and it actually had to arrive on pallets because it was going to cost over $50k just to deliver it if pre built so the great thing (for me) that happened is I actually helped put it all together when it arrived in parts. Something I have never done before! I'm not sure if Paul has given it an official name yet but it's working name was "The Immersive Mothership"  

Paul Wolff is amazing. Total genius and also hilarious. I got on with him as soon as I met him. I also told him he needs to make the Slate Raven better (he also designed that) which went down well!


----------



## agarner32

jononotbono said:


> Getting older sucks 😂


Haha! You ain't seen nothing yet - and you know how old I am.

I agree with everything you said by the way. In my field there are professors in jazz who can barely play a blues and they are trying to teach jazz improv of coach a jazz ensemble or heaven forbid teach jazz theory - whatever that is. I get it. I just started thinking about the hundreds of great players with long professional careers that also teach. Presumably because it's so tough these days to make a living in music as a performer - especially in jazz and classical arenas

By the way, you could be a great teacher if you wanted to although you'd have to tone down that language of yours - as if I'm any better.

Back to the TS thread. You're right about doing research about instructors and their involvement or success in the area they are teaching. As you know, this is where TS shines for the most part.


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## jononotbono

agarner32 said:


> By the way, you could be a great teacher if you wanted to although you'd have to tone down that language of yours - as if I'm any better.



I don't even know how you have a job to be fair and it's nothing to do with your musical ability. Fiend.


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## agarner32

jononotbono said:


> I don't even know how you have a job to be fair and it's nothing to do with your musical ability. Fiend.


Well it's because there were about 50 people applying for my position who had PhDs in music theory/composition who didn't speak the English language during the interviews. I'm guessing those candidates were too smart for a community college. I on the other hand ain't that smart so I probably could relate.


----------



## jononotbono

agarner32 said:


> Well it's because there were about 50 people applying for my position who had PhDs in music theory/composition who didn't speak the English language during the interviews. I'm guessing those candidates were too smart for a community college. I on the other hand ain't that smart so I probably could relate.



Well there you go.

Do I need a music degree to get a job? No. But a drinking habit probably helps.


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## JohnG

jononotbono said:


> Do I need a music degree to get a job? No. But a drinking habit probably helps.



Of course you don't need the piece of paper; nobody ever asks me about my nifty degrees. 

And having a few drinks with someone is a great way to get acquainted, no doubt.

Nevertheless, the training that came along with those degrees has helped me survive the hideous deadlines that you face.

Specifically, apart from the exposure to lots of cool compositions I'd otherwise never have encountered, the learning that comes with degrees helps with two indispensable skills:

*1. Speed* -- You can't be looking up the range of every instrument if it's 10 o'clock at night and you have a 10 AM downbeat. You can't be waiting for the muse to alight on your shoulder if you have 20-30 minutes a week to write; you have to be able to crank it out and knowledge does help.

*2. Extending a good idea* -- a lot of people can dream up / improvise a great 40 seconds of music. But then what? If you listen to posts by would-be composers, often after the first bit it either repeats or they just add layers (over a drone) and -- it kind of gets boring in some way or other. Learning how to analyse your material in several ways (traditional and non-traditional) can save the day. Moreover, if you learn a few of those tricks, it helps keep the overall score coherent -- you can set a tone and then evolve it so that the picture / piece feels like a single body of work, instead of a committee effort.


----------



## jononotbono

JohnG said:


> Of course you don't need the piece of paper; nobody ever asks me about my nifty degrees.
> 
> And having a few drinks with someone is a great way to get acquainted, no doubt.
> 
> Nevertheless, the training that came along with those degrees has helped me survive the hideous deadlines that you face.
> 
> Specifically, apart from the exposure to lots of cool compositions I'd otherwise never have encountered, the learning that comes with degrees helps with two indispensable skills:
> 
> *1. Speed* -- You can't be looking up the range of every instrument if it's 10 o'clock at night and you have a 10 AM downbeat. You can't be waiting for the muse to alight on your shoulder if you have 20-30 minutes a week to write; you have to be able to crank it out and knowledge does help.
> 
> *2. Extending a good idea* -- a lot of people can dream up / improvise a great 40 seconds of music. But then what? If you listen to posts by would-be composers, often after the first bit it either repeats or they just add layers (over a drone) and -- it kind of gets boring in some way or other. Learning how to analyse your material in several ways (traditional and non-traditional) can save the day. Moreover, if you learn a few of those tricks, it helps keep the overall score coherent -- you can set a tone and then evolve it so that the picture / piece feels like a single body of work, instead of a committee effort.



I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from studying a degree. Of course, I agree with Everything you have just said!


----------



## JohnG

jononotbono said:


> I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from studying a degree. Of course, I agree with Everything you have just said!



But I worked _hard_ for those pieces of paper! And nobody ever asks me!! [whimper, sniffle; kicks rock, holds foot in agony...]


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## Rory

Seems like I can't press play on a YouTube video without seeing Spike Lee's ad for Masterclass, which starts "I would never tell anyone that they have to go to film school to be a filmmaker".

This undoubtedly plays well, the prevailing view on YouTube being that film school is a waste of money and time.

Guess who's a Professor in the film programme at New York University's Tisch School of the Arts, having previously earned a Masters degree from Tisch in filmmaking.

Of course, New York isn't the main centre when it comes to film. More commonly, major players in the American film industry are graduates of UCLA's School of Theatre, Film and Television.

As Francis Ford Coppola, M.F.A. '67, puts it:

_"When you go to the UCLA School of Theater, Film & Television, you become a lifelong member and participate in a very unique tradition. Family. One that proudly claims some of the world’s most legendary storytellers, scholars, industry leaders, mavericks and creative minds. I remember well the influences on me as a student, greats like Arthur Ripley, Dorothy Arzner and Alexander Mackendrick. Upon graduation you will join this great heritage as you pursue your career. Being part of our remarkable Alumni community is an exciting experience.”_


----------



## dzilizzi

JohnG said:


> But I worked _hard_ for those pieces of paper! And nobody ever asks me!! [whimper, sniffle; kicks rock, holds foot in agony...]


I think in some ways Jono is right. It depends a lot on your teachers and you whether those pieces of paper are worth anything. A good teacher can make you think and try new stuff. A bad one just throws out stuff from the book that they don't always quite understand and then wonder why so few students don't love their classes. And if, as the student, you barely do the required reading or homework, you won't remember or really understand what you learned. However, if you do have teachers that engage you and you put in the effort, the paper is definitely worth it. 

I also find that people who love what they do and have a natural talent for it find it much easier to put in the work needed.


----------



## jbuhler

jononotbono said:


> If you do decide to do a Masters then the only advice I can offer is what I did. Jump straight into it, Lara Croft Swan Dive into the heart of the unknown and go for it. When I started I instantly bee-lined and shot for that amazing Violinist, the incredible guy with Computers, can't believe she can Orchestrate like that, and he operates a Boom arm on live TV? He's a Film producer? holy shit A jazz Pianist! Man I have no idea about EDM and he is SICK! I have no idea how any of these people do whatever they do, I'm just a fucking Guitarist from the Isle of Wight but they WILL be my friends and somehow this will work! All of a sudden the Bass Guitar becomes a very valuable commodity as you can bet they will look at you in the same way.
> 
> And none of this is even touching the course. This is just (hopefully) some of the people you will be surrounded with. You future friends. Consider this a free "networking" lesson
> 
> I know so many people with MA Degrees and they all bitch about how they never learned anything, how the course was shit, the tutors don't know what they are talking about and how DARE they give them a Pass or Merit for their Masterpieces instead of their god given rightful Distinctions.
> 
> Basically, they feel like this because they did nothing. They put minimum effort into the course. Left everything to last minute. Had absolutely no connection with anyone or anything to do with the course. At this point, they are doing it for a bit of paper and if that's the reason, fuck that. For the first time ever, their hand wasn't held and they are wondering why they paid so much money to leave empty handed. I know, how positive.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I hope this has been of some help. E-mail Guy. You'll love him straight away I'm sure.
> 
> Jono
> 
> Here's a link to the studio I work at...
> 
> Valhalla Studios New York


One awesome thread. And quite the tale!


----------



## robcs

Great thread. I’ve been thinking of doing the TS MA (or even MFA) but worried that at 52 it’s just a vanity project for me lol.


----------



## jononotbono

robcs said:


> Great thread. I’ve been thinking of doing the TS MA (or even MFA) but worried that at 52 it’s just a vanity project for me lol.



103 is old. You have a long way to go! Man, you should check the courses out. Perhaps you will love it. If you don’t though, I guess you can hold me responsible 😂


----------



## Thor

Hey everybody, I’m a graduate of the program that Luke is in. No education is perfect. You will have some amount of issues with any form of education you ever receive. You cannot ever possibly get all the information you need to be a professional in anything in an academic setting.

OK. Now that I got that out-of-the-way, I fucking love ThinkSpace. It was perfect for me. I’m a working adult, married, mortgage, etc. I was able to get and pay off the degree while getting it. It’s flexible, where realistically the only time constraints are just meeting your project deadlines. As it’s been said before, TS is geared towards preparing you for professional work. If you live in LA or some other hub where industry exists, that’s awesome! I live in the Chicago area, where there isn’t a ton of game audio happening. There is some, but I would not necessarily consider it a game audio hub. All of my work that I have gotten so far is remote.

So for me TS is perfect. It prepared me more or less for what I was going to do, given all of the previous caveats. They hire working professionals, and are really interested in keeping their content up to date, within reason. They take criticism seriously, and are staffed with wonderful people.


----------



## Mornats

I'm sold on their music theory course after reading all the comments here. I like Guy's videos a lot, he's certainly very watchable and comes across as a nice guy. Half price at the moment too


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## jononotbono

wst3 said:


> Thoroughly enjoyed your post(s) about the MA/MFA programs at Thinkspace!
> 
> But I need to turn on geek mode - Valhalla??? I believe you recently took delivery of one of Paul Wolff's FIX consoles. That's gotta be utterly fun!



Now I’m back at the studio...


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## JohnG

too bad you have to work with such piddly little equipment.


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## wst3

A thing of beauty!! I am just a tad envious<G>.

I spent part of my career assisting a friend rehab API and API-like consoles (Demedio, Aengus). It was a ton of fun, but the market for such consoles dried up rather suddenly.

Have fun with that thing! (Love the monitors too!)



jononotbono said:


> Now I’m back at the studio...


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## Marko Zirkovich

JohnG said:


> too bad you have to work with such piddly little equipment.


Well, for a little home studio it's not too bad. It should do for small projects.


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## Loïc D

jononotbono said:


> Now I’m back at the studio...



Only 1 thing to remember : don’t push the red button.


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## jononotbono

wst3 said:


> Love the monitors too!)



Those monitors are PMC QB1 XBDA

Only studio in the world with 5 of them (2 for Left, 2 for Right and 1 Centre). The freq range is something like 12hz.

Needless to say, a sub is not needed 😂


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## wst3

I recognized them as PMC, which is one of my favorite monitors - sadly I only get to hear them when I visit a studio that uses them, couldn't fit them in my personal studio if I could afford them, which, oddly enough, I can't. They are really great monitors for a variety of musical styles, I've not heard sample library based music played through them, but I imagine they are quite good at revealing any shortcomings, as well as sounding glorious anyway<G>.


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## MikeK

robcs said:


> Great thread. I’ve been thinking of doing the TS MA (or even MFA) but worried that at 52 it’s just a vanity project for me lol.



I just registered this account and before I even fill out my profile, I wanted to reply to your note because it resonates with me. 

I’m 53 and I probably won’t do the MA or MFA because, honestly, I think it’s too late to do something “professional” with it. In my head, I know that’s not true, but I don’t fully believe it in my heart. Still wrestling with that. 

It’s OK not to do something professional with a degree, but that strikes me as a lot of money to not pursue it professionally to _some_ degree when one is done. Could be wrong on that, though.

_However_, I’m going all-in with the individual courses and then I’ll see where things stand. I reserve the right to change my mind on the MA/MFA later on. For now, I’m jumping in for “soul satisfying” reasons. If that’s as far as it goes, that’s fine. If it leads to a more serious pursuit, that’s fine, too. 

I finally just decided that I needed to commit to a path and not be so concerned about the ultimate destination or what I perceived as a valid age for that destination. 

As one person in his early 50s to another, go for it if you’ll commit to it. Don’t worry about age. We worry about things that are far off and that can prevent us from taking action today that can be life-changing in just a couple of years.

I realize I should listen to my own advice, and to a different degree I have... jumping into the individual courses and soaking a lot of stuff in. (Today, I made my first sample after seeing Christian’s video from Make Music Day. Pretty proud of myself, even if it is simple.)

Those of us in our 50s are in an odd spot. There’s still plenty of life left, but there can be a lingering feeling that we missed out by starting “late”. Or maybe that’s just me.

Anyway, I rambled... just want to encourage you to go for it if you feel there’s any sort of value for you. Investing in yourself is never a vanity project.


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## jononotbono

MikeK said:


> I just registered this account and before I even fill out my profile, I wanted to reply to your note because it resonates with me.
> 
> I’m 53 and I probably won’t do the MA or MFA because, honestly, I think it’s too late to do something “professional” with it. In my head, I know that’s not true, but I don’t fully believe it in my heart. Still wrestling with that.
> 
> It’s OK not to do something professional with a degree, but that strikes me as a lot of money to not pursue it professionally to _some_ degree when one is done. Could be wrong on that, though.
> 
> _However_, I’m going all-in with the individual courses and then I’ll see where things stand. I reserve the right to change my mind on the MA/MFA later on. For now, I’m jumping in for “soul satisfying” reasons. If that’s as far as it goes, that’s fine. If it leads to a more serious pursuit, that’s fine, too.
> 
> I finally just decided that I needed to commit to a path and not be so concerned about the ultimate destination or what I perceived as a valid age for that destination.
> 
> As one person in his early 50s to another, go for it if you’ll commit to it. Don’t worry about age. We worry about things that are far off and that can prevent us from taking action today that can be life-changing in just a couple of years.
> 
> I realize I should listen to my own advice, and to a different degree I have... jumping into the individual courses and soaking a lot of stuff in. (Today, I made my first sample after seeing Christian’s video from Make Music Day. Pretty proud of myself, even if it is simple.)
> 
> Those of us in our 50s are in an odd spot. There’s still plenty of life left, but there can be a lingering feeling that we missed out by starting “late”. Or maybe that’s just me.
> 
> Anyway, I rambled... just want to encourage you to go for it if you feel there’s any sort of value for you. Investing in yourself is never a vanity project.



Hey man, age means nothing. It’s just a number. Do whatever your heart tells you!

Unless you want to be in an English Boyband. Then you’ll need to lie and say you’re 16 and definitely single.


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## MikeK

jononotbono said:


> Hey man, age means nothing. It’s just a number. Do whatever your heart tells you!
> 
> Unless you want to be in an English Boyband. Then you’ll need to lie and say you’re 16 and definitely single.



I gave up my Boyband membership ambitions when I hit 45. I was starting to get odd looks during the auditions and got the sense I stood out ever-so-slightly.


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## MarcHedenberg

I'm grateful for all the comments and I'm considering ThinkSpace myself for my masters.

On a somewhat unrelated, possibly related note: how SOL am I for future opportunities and ThinkSpace events and in-person workshops if I'm banned from the U.S for life (I'm a Swede living in London - it's a long, long story)?


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## Smikes77

@jononotbono 

Did you like the course then? I didn`t get it.


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## jononotbono

Smikes77 said:


> @jononotbono
> 
> Did you like the course then? I didn`t get it.



I’ll let you know when I finish the MFA 😂


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## robcs

MarcHedenberg said:


> I'm grateful for all the comments and I'm considering ThinkSpace myself for my masters.
> 
> On a somewhat unrelated, possibly related note: how SOL am I for future opportunities and ThinkSpace events and in-person workshops if I'm banned from the U.S for life (I'm a Swede living in London - it's a long, long story)?



I suggest you contact them through the website, but as they’re UK-based and often use European cities for their orchestral sessions rather than US (I remember seeing a post about it or a video by Guy) it shouldn’t be a problem


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## jononotbono

It's not really a Thinkspace related post but I do have a habit of derailing and digressing on this forum. Shouldn't have tagged me so much should ya!

This kind of happened today. Took it from the Studio Graveyard and decided my "portable" New York Music Lab could do with a bit more 12 Core power!


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## jbuhler

jononotbono said:


> It's not really a Thinkspace related post but I do have a habit of derailing and digressing on this forum. Shouldn't have tagged me so much should ya!
> 
> This kind of happened today. Took it from the Studio Graveyard and decided my "portable" New York Music Lab could do with a bit more 12 Core power!


So what’s your total count now in terms of computers and RAM?


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## jononotbono

jbuhler said:


> So what’s your total count now in terms of computers and RAM?



128 satellite 
128 satellite 
64 satellite 
24 main computer IMac

344gb

When I have the money I’m going to have a rethink about my set up but Firstly I want to replace the iMac I’m using for at least a Trashcan or build a PC.


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## styledelk

I've been looking at the MA program for a couple of years now and finally submitted an application this week. Fingers crossed that my RPL request was sufficient. Also that my music is halfway decent.


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## jononotbono

styledelk said:


> I've been looking at the MA program for a couple of years now and finally submitted an application this week. Fingers crossed that my RPL request was sufficient. Also that my music is halfway decent.



Good luck an I'm sure you'll be great!


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## styledelk

jononotbono said:


> Good luck an I'm sure you'll be great!


Thank you, sir! Loved your Westworld entry.


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## jononotbono

styledelk said:


> Thank you, sir! Loved your Westworld entry.



Ah man, thank you!


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## linguisticat

jononotbono said:


> I’ll let you know when I finish the MFA 😂


Hi Jono,

Sorry to bother you. I've been watching Guy Michelmore's YT videos and really enjoy watching and learning from him. Consequently, I'm seriously contemplating applying for the MFA program at ThinkSpace Education in Video Game Composition & Orchestration, but the $20,000+ price tag is very hard to swallow, especially since I'm currently unemployed (even though I actually have two Bachelor's degrees... go figure!). I realize that with programs such as these, you get out of it what you put into it, so I know that if I want to be successful, I will need to put in the time and effort. I was just curious to know your experience, and if you would still take the leap and attend the program. In your experience are there any jobs for composers that you can actually make a living doing? and if so, how did/do you find them? and are they mostly grinders (lots of tedious work)?

Any info/advice/battle stories would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much!


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