# Anyone decided to buy the new Mac Pro Cylinder ?



## muziksculp (Jul 30, 2013)

Hi,

Anyone already decided to buy the new Mac Pro Cylinder once it is released ?

I'm still undecided. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## José Herring (Jul 30, 2013)

I heard it makes a great latte.


----------



## muziksculp (Jul 30, 2013)

josejherring @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> I heard it makes a great latte.



:lol:


----------



## mark812 (Jul 30, 2013)

Noop, I don't need a $4,000 trash can.


----------



## khollister (Jul 30, 2013)

I am not buying one unless ...

1) the price is substantially lower than folks are expecting, or ...
2) there is a config with at least 8 cores but not dual GPU's, or ...
3) Apple enables Logic X to take advantage of the GPU's. via OpenCL

I rate all of these options as moderate to highly unlikely. I believe the new MP will be justifiable only as a video/3d rendering workstation. 

And frankly, a MBP/Mini/iMac with a PC VEP slave makes a lot more sense for a number of reasons.


----------



## Mike Connelly (Jul 30, 2013)

Considering that pricing and specs haven't been announced, it would seem rash to decide either way at this point.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Jul 30, 2013)

mark812 @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> Noop, I don't need a $4,000 trash can.



Whether you buy it or not, to call it a trash can is silly. It will be a very powerful machine.


----------



## Ron Snijders (Jul 30, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue 30 Jul said:


> mark812 @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Noop, I don't need a $4,000 trash can.
> ...


But one that looks like something I'd put either flowers or trash into (o) 

As for me: it depends on pricing (which will be higher for us Europeans anyway) and specs, I guess. Having to use external expansion seems terrible, but if it all ends up working nicely and at a decent price, why not? I'm planning to get a new machine in the not-too-far future, so I'm keeping this option open, though I have to admit it has become less likely after the announcement of the new design.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jul 30, 2013)

Yep. Definitely. All those thunderbolt ports ...


----------



## pkm (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm considering it, but not until details, specs, and pricing are announced. It's impossible to tell right now.


----------



## jamwerks (Jul 30, 2013)

IMO Apple decided that the only way to make money in the "Pro" market, was to make a "design object". It was either that, or abandon all together the pro market. Too hard to compete with inexpensive custom PC power-horses.

It's going to be expensive, and is going to require expensive satelites, and will sell to folks with a few thousand extra to throw around.

I won't be buying a mac (for the first time in 25 years!).


----------



## Saxer (Jul 30, 2013)

have my macpro for 6 years now... and the only time it's switched off is for updates, vacation or stormy wheather. never had problems with it. it was expensive, but even when the next macpro is 4000$ and i'll use it for five years it's about 2$ per day. heating, coffee or electricity, everything is more expensive per day (don't even ask for sample libraries)!
i'll probably get one when it's out (and the specs are ok).


----------



## dgburns (Jul 30, 2013)

jamwerks @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> IMO Apple decided that the only way to make money in the "Pro" market, was to make a "design object". It was either that, or abandon all together the pro market. Too hard to compete with inexpensive custom PC power-horses.
> 
> It's going to be expensive, and is going to require expensive satelites, and will sell to folks with a few thousand extra to throw around.
> 
> I won't be buying a mac (for the first time in 25 years!).



I think I sorta want it.hate the way it looks,and I will probably give building a hackintosh a serious look at if it is doable.Only reason I even want it is for Logic...

and I think looking back years from now we'll say,remember that black ugly thing Mac tried to pull over on us back in 2013?

Steve Jobs rolling over in his grave right now...."No,I said White you idiots!"


----------



## NYC Composer (Jul 31, 2013)

Obelisks are rarely white.


----------



## FriFlo (Aug 1, 2013)

Here is why I am almost sure, I will not buy the new mac pro (and completely abandon Apple from my Studio when my current Mac pro is outdated):

1) Price: I am almost sure, this new Mac pro is not going to be a bargain. Apple computers never have been. Further, I would need to buy an external chassis for PCIe and external drives.
2) Logic X upgrade is a complete letdown to me. Nothing of importance to me has been improved, except for folder tracks. After 4 years this is really poor and I don't see any reason not to continue with Cubase. Cubase runs better on PCs, so why would I buy a mac then?
3) Performance: Although we don't know it yet, you can see the following problems:
- only 16 GB of Ram max in 2013? Excuse me?
- no PCIe? Thunderbolt is still less bandwidth than PCIe, even Thunderbolt 2
- no space for internal SSDs, again: Thunderbolt 2 is slower

What is left to persuade one to buy this machine? GPU? Surprise me, Apple! But I cannot see where this is going to be something big for a DAW. There are no CPU performance problems with current processors. Ram and SSD are far more important to me.
The OS? Well, I am used to Mac OS X, but the 10.7 - 10.9 I have seen not any improvement for music. I still like it more than Windows 7, but that is not important enough for me to justify buying another mac pro.


----------



## Mike Connelly (Aug 1, 2013)

FriFlo @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> - only 16 GB of Ram max in 2013?



64 now, and probably 128 down the road when those chips become available. It has four ram slots, you really weren't aware that modules over 4 gigs are available?

And again, people assume a high price but we just don't know yet. Apple has had machines that are competitively priced (at least when they are released, although they tend not to keep up with price drops and spec bumps). We also don't know how many cores will be in the low end, if it will be four or six or eight, or only a twelve core version.

I do hope the final design includes multiple SSD/flash slots. Connecting via pcie is a great idea but pro users need the option of more than one drive, and it seems like they should be able to make more than just one fit.


----------



## rgames (Aug 1, 2013)

Apple's business model doesn't support high-performance computing. It never has. Apple's business model is to market to the masses. They've made some powerful machines in the past but not because that's their mission - they've done it because it was necessary for the masses to do what they wanted to do.

Now, though, the processing power required to do what the masses want to do is not much. Because the masses don't need something like a Mac Pro, Apple is not going to waste a lot of time on it.

Let's be real - the number of composers who actually NEED the new Mac Pro (or any current-gen PC for that matter) is extremely small - possibly zero. We've passed the age where you need huge amounts of power to write music on a computer.

The only mainstream apps that really push PC performance these days are those that deal with video editing. And it appears that's exactly where Apple is going to push the new Mac Pro.

rgames


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 1, 2013)

rgames @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> The only mainstream apps that really push PC performance these days are those that deal with video editing. And it appears that's exactly where Apple is going to push the new Mac Pro.
> 
> rgames



That's exactly what I feel about their target market with the new Mac Pro (Cylinder). 

Apple is catering to video/graphic designers, rather than Pro-Music customers.


----------



## MikeH (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm undecided right now. I'm currently running a 2009 Mac Pro with 8 gigs of RAM and am just slightly feeling ready to upgrade. All of my brass and winds are WIVI so I'm wondering if it might just make sense to get a fully decked-out Macbook Pro with external drives instead of another desktop.


----------



## germancomponist (Aug 1, 2013)

rgames @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> Apple's business model doesn't support high-performance computing. It never has. Apple's business model is to market to the masses. They've made some powerful machines in the past but not because that's their mission - they've done it because it was necessary for the masses to do what they wanted to do.
> 
> Now, though, the processing power required to do what the masses want to do is not much. Because the masses don't need something like a Mac Pro, Apple is not going to waste a lot of time on it.
> 
> ...



+1

I would never buy anything from Apple! These slave drivers have no morals!


----------



## FriFlo (Aug 1, 2013)

rgames @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> The only mainstream apps that really push PC performance these days are those that deal with video editing. And it appears that's exactly where Apple is going to push the new Mac Pro.
> 
> rgames



Exactly! When I look at the Logic X upgrade, the way I see it it is all geared towards the average mac book user who runs live and maybe wants to get the kick of another sequencer. That's why I don't see them building any features for studio folks like using the gpu as dsp for ultra low latency or effect dsp - the pro tools killer that was a rumor 4 years ago. It's just a shame, because actually they could do something great like that with selling hardware and software as one package. Overall, I am very disappointed with apple! C'est la vie ...


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 1, 2013)

FriFlo @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> rgames @ Thu Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > The only mainstream apps that really push PC performance these days are those that deal with video editing. And it appears that's exactly where Apple is going to push the new Mac Pro.
> ...



Not totally accurate assessment, FriFlo.

Yes, it has been made easier for newbies and Garageband upgraders but there are features in LP X that long tine pro users like me have wanted for years and a couple we did not know we wanted but will be glad to have.


----------



## kclements (Aug 1, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> ...
> 
> Yes, it has been made easier for newbies and Garageband upgraders but there are features in LP X that long tine pro users like me have wanted for years and a couple we did not know we wanted but will be glad to have.



Yes. I am really loving LPX - 

and as for the new MacPro - I would love to get one - just not in the budget this year. But maybe next. 

cheers - 
kc


----------



## mac4d (Aug 1, 2013)

pkm @ Tue Jul 30 said:


> I'm considering it, but not until details, specs, and pricing are announced. It's impossible to tell right now.


+1


----------



## José Herring (Aug 1, 2013)

mac4d @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> pkm @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm considering it, but not until details, specs, and pricing are announced. It's impossible to tell right now.
> ...



[/img]


----------



## chimuelo (Aug 1, 2013)

muziksculp @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> Apple is catering to video/graphic designers, rather than Pro-Music customers.



They probably read whiners from here and KVR crying about having to pay more than 99 bucks for a great PLAY or Kontakt instrument.. o/~


----------



## chimuelo (Aug 1, 2013)

Mi Estas Matando Jose....... :mrgreen:


----------



## gamalataki (Aug 1, 2013)

Yes, at any price. I'm in the music business baby. Music is just a royalty that keeps on giving and giving. I might get two; one just to keep my shredder company.
Actually, maybe three, my cat needs a new scratching post.


----------



## re-peat (Aug 1, 2013)

No way I’m ever going to upgrade to Logic X (note that I omit the ‘Pro’-bit in there), not while I still have my self-respect and sanity anyway, so while I would love to get my hands on one of these new machines someday, it’ll only happen if they can still run Logic Pro 9.x.x.

_


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2013)

re-peat @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> No way I’m ever going to upgrade to Logic X (note that I omit the ‘Pro’-bit in there), not while I still have my self-respect and sanity anyway, so while I would love to get my hands on one of these new machines someday, it’ll only happen if they can still run Logic Pro 9.x.x.
> 
> _



Nonsense. Whatever one thinks of it, Logic Pro X is by any empirical standards every bit as "pro" as any other version of Logic or any other DAW.

As it is a 1.0 release, it _is_ however a little buggy at this point, but they will fix it, as was LP9 and especially LP 8, which was the the buggiest version on initial release IMHO.

3 months from now, my perdiction is that most people who use Logic Pro, including professionals, are going to be very happy with this new version.


----------



## dgburns (Aug 2, 2013)

re-peat @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> No way I’m ever going to upgrade to Logic X (note that I omit the ‘Pro’-bit in there), not while I still have my self-respect and sanity anyway, so while I would love to get my hands on one of these new machines someday, it’ll only happen if they can still run Logic Pro 9.x.x.
> 
> _



I feel your pain.I do reluctantly agree with Jay however.It's not that the app isn't a step forward in some ways.
It just seems to me this app was developed without real input from the user base.Or atleast maybe some people were contacted.
I think if more dialog was initiated with the user community,or we were able to see that discussion happen,things would be better.
Little things like allowing us to better customize the look and feel of the app.we don't live or work in a one size fits all world anymore,or atleast alot of us like to get in under the hood and change stuff as we like.Seems to me that was one of the great strong points of the software under it's own leadership.
My vote is for Logic to go it's own way again.I'd pay 1 to 2k for a proper pro app like we used to.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2013)

Here is what an Apple guy told me when I complained that more and more it seems that Apple no longer lets us drive the bus. A large percentage of tech support calls were directly related to people tinkering with things that they had the ability to tinker with but not the requisite knowledge. By giving the user fewer choices (unless they really DO know how to use them), it cuts down on unnecsessary tech support work.


----------



## re-peat (Aug 2, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> Whatever one thinks of it, Logic Pro X is by any empirical standards every bit as "pro" as any other version of Logic or any other DAW..


Taurus droppings, Jay. Besides, I wasn't aware that you are now also certified to determine for all of us what qualifies as 'pro' or not. Maybe Logic X still convinces _you_ as a pro app, and that's fine, but it sure as hell doesn't convince me. And I’m every bit the pro which you are. 
The new software, I feel, lost just about everything which I want and need to see in a professional application, and at the same time, it is now very much on a course, both visually and conceptually, which I find extremely off-putting and infuriatingly insulting. As un-pro as you can get, in fact.
Only to say: you can't measure the 'pro' factor of software empirically.

The moment I heard about "Gavin, The Alternative Drummer", I knew Logic had been fatally mutilated. And fatally mutilated it is. Some poor sod even had to furnish Gavin with a face. Oh, that is very pro indeed. Yes, we've all been waiting for mustachioed Gavin for years, haven't we? Can't get any pro work done without him, can we? Dear me.
And then there's that interface. Jeezesconstipatedchrist, what horror. Inconsistent, inflexible, insulting and idiotic. And I can't recall ever seeing an interface (of a supposedly ‘pro’ app) which wastes so much space, and is at the same time so user-unfriendly in all its pseudo-stylish darkness. 
And any program that thinks it needs to show me a picture of a guitar where it already cleary says 'Guitar' (the mixer channel strips), just makes me want to shut it down permanently. I don't need that. I don’t want that.

A pro app, Jay, is an app which takes its users 100% seriously, and which assumes intelligence, dedication and creativity, but nothing else. A pro app doesn't force a certain way of working on its users, it doesn’t insist on holding the user’s hand, it doesn’t offer wizzards or templates, or any of such pre-fab nonsense, … it expects that the user is smart, willing and creative enough to determine for him/herself what works best, and it simply offers all the options to do that. The way Logic used to, in fact.
A pro app stays in the background as much as it can, it doesn't steer, it doesn't interfere, it obeys. A pro app doesn’t pretend to know what the user wants or needs to do (I hate it when software does that), a pro app simply offers quality choices, possibilities and solutions.
A pro app is designed suchly that the user knows that everything he (or she) wants to do, the software will make possible in whichever way the user wants to accomplish it (within the limits of what the software was designed to do in the first place, of course). 

Logic X, from what I’ve seen of it, is now very much the Sesame Street version of Logic. It had to happen one day, I suppose.

I am aware, going by what can be read on various Logic-related fora, that the vast majority of Logic’s userbase are utter imbeciles and that most users are either too lazy or too thick, or both, to thoroughly master a piece of software. And with that in mind, Apple may well have done the wisest thing with this new version. But there’s no denying that this is a huge disappointment to anyone, like myself, who still associates the word ‘professionalism’ with responsibility, pride, self-respect, creativity, individuality and full commitment.

_


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2013)

Piet, it must be a great burden going through life feeling that you are so much smarter and more talented than the massively more successful people than you who are pleased with it. I am so glad that I do not have to carry that burden, being so much less extraordinary.

BTW, I know that many of you say it is not a factor for you and that is fine, but among the composers I have talked to just this week who are overall pleased with it and are starting to learn the new features are John Frizzell, Reinhold Heil, Steve Porcaro, Wayne Kramer, Bruce Miller, Tom Salta, and Michael Levine. Place as much or little significance as you wish but it is a factual statement.


----------



## muk (Aug 2, 2013)

No need to argue. Either you like the software or you don't. The fact that Piet doesn't like it doesn't make it unuseable (and it isn't). It's great that some composers like it, but neither will that change it's suitability for Piet.
Besides, for all his valuable knowledge, re-peat states his opinion more ferociously than is necessary and wise in my opinion. But that seems to be his way. You should know better than to take it personal Jay.


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 2, 2013)

Forums are places where people come to express their opinion

Re-peat expresses his opinion, which is cool. I love reading peoples opinions.

EW Lurker, as he so often does, plays the Ayatollah telling people how they should think, how they should base their opinions, etc, which imo in total bullshit.

Moderators would do us all a favor by canceling such posts.

This is of course, my opinion


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 2, 2013)

jamwerks @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> Forums are places where people come to express their opinion
> 
> Re-peat expresses his opinion, which is cool. I love reading peoples opinions.
> 
> ...



Not at all, just expressing an alternate point of view.


----------



## mac4d (Aug 2, 2013)

josejherring @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> mac4d @ Thu Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > pkm @ Tue Jul 30 said:
> ...


Wait...all this...

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/

and it makes coffee too! Long as it's $3000 or less, I'm definitely getting one, or two. Just hope it doesn't decide to kill me when it finds out I'm not "the creator."


----------



## chimuelo (Aug 2, 2013)

I have watched Logic since I used Logic Silver back in the Alesis ADAT conquers all days, I have always envied it but still clung to hardware sequencers, and being a cheap skate went to SX2, and now Reaper.
But my son just got Logic and only 2 weeks later on his MacBook Pro coerced him into upgrading to Logic Pro.
I think what this version is Pro at, is getting more than old die hards into using the DAW by appealling to a wider audience.

Anything that caters to a wider audience is good for everyone using Logic, as R & D isn't something Apple seems to invest in very much these days.

My kid likes the idea that he has upgraded to "pro." Seems like Apples marketting
skills might come in handy, maybe even add some goodies for the loyalists down the line.

I am still waiting for PLAY Pro, as I didn't want to buy anymore amatuer products....

Ankyu 0oD


----------



## Arbee (Aug 2, 2013)

Why anyone still drinks the Apple Kool-Aid is totally beyond me. I concede that "way back in the day", Apple was the valid choice for creative computing pursuits, but those days are long, long gone.....

.


----------



## mac4d (Aug 2, 2013)

Not long gone for me.

And I don't care what you drink.


----------



## JFK (Aug 2, 2013)

Is LPX more usable than LP9? 

They took steps forwards and backwards, like any new app. 

It's a matter of weighing the new features vs the new bugs. I'd trade stability for less features, IMO.


----------



## Audio (Aug 2, 2013)

jamwerks @ 8/2/2013 said:


> Forums are places where people come to express their opinion
> 
> Re-peat expresses his opinion, which is cool. I love reading peoples opinions.
> 
> ...



No kidding! This place would be much better off and feel more like "musicians helping musicians" - if you ask me, we're overdue for a "Thanks Re-peat" thread. He's on a short list of posters who make this place feel like less of some sort of twilight zone informercial.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 3, 2013)

JFK @ Fri Aug 02 said:


> Is LPX more usable than LP9?
> 
> They took steps forwards and backwards, like any new app.
> 
> It's a matter of weighing the new features vs the new bugs. I'd trade stability for less features, IMO.



Like most DAW 1.0 major updates, it fixed some bugs, created some others.

Thanks to loosening of Apple's rules for how and when app developers can make updates available through Software Update, i am optimistic that bug fixes for LP X will come more quickly than they did for LP 9.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 3, 2013)

Back to topic.

I wonder if Video/Graphic Design professionals will spend their $ on Apple's new Black Cylinder, given the wide range of PC-Workstations they could buy these days ? 

imho. If the black-Cylinder does not sell well with Pro-Video/Graphics users, I see it becoming a big flop of a product, and eventually put to rest in Apple's R&D trash bin. Since I feel the Pro-Video/Graphics users are the main focus of the Cylinder. 

I guess we have to wait, and see what happens whenever it finally ships later this year. 

Oh... and I wonder what the starting price is going to be. Since Pricing is an important contributing factor that will play into how well it sells. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm kind of amazed that the masses haven't yet understood. Take a good look at the lastest Ma(c)sh-can, take a look the latest Logic-Blow :mrgreen: (sorry, couldn't resist), and remember FCP X

Seems pretty clear where Apple is headed...


----------



## muk (Aug 4, 2013)

Aren't you overestimating pro video/music users influence a bit? Whatever the price, I can see a lot of home consumer folks buying it. Just because it's the latest apple computer.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Aug 4, 2013)

rgames @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> We've passed the age where you need huge amounts of power to write music on a computer.
> 
> 
> rgames



Lol, what? :D 

My current Mac Pro is maxed out pretty often because of the amounts of samples it loads and plays back at the same time. I could definitely use something even more powerful. And I have two PC slaves as well.

That said, I am very skeptical about this "no PCI-slots, all TB"-approach. As others pointed out, TB has way less bandwidth compared to PCI. And why should I have a nest of cables now that I didn't need before, just because Apple wanted to make this as small as possible? I need a seriously good reason to buy this and am a bit sad that Apple indeed abandon (big parts of) the pro market with this.


----------



## IFM (Aug 4, 2013)

germancomponist @ Thu Aug 01 said:


> +1
> 
> I would never buy anything from Apple! These slave drivers have no morals!



That's right because MS is the angel of the industry. :roll: 

Anyways I am not buying one either as I went with a 2.6 quad i7 Mini and added an internal drive for projects and have a mini stack for the sample drive. This machine is now more powerful (about 1.5x) than my MP 1,1 8 core 3ghz. 

Chris


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 4, 2013)

I do not own and have never had any Apple computers. I do have their iPhone - its quite good.


I have been told by an expert friend that the major downside of this new machine for music professionals is the expansion problems.

You will need to put it a lot more money to buy external chassis to fit various PCI cards etc and they cost a bomb.

Why did they do this?

Because the new design looks good and is significantly smaller. But who really needs that at the cost of function.

You can simply get a PC which is way cheaper and more powerful than this as of yet not released product.

But I can understand for people who use Apple since years, this will be the only option.

This is the problem I have with Apple. 

Sure, just a few variants help simply its product line but they randomly ditch their customers and overcharge a lot.

Ever buy RAM from Apple? Why were the Cinema displays discontinued? Why is there only ONE 27-inch LED model which is twice the price of many competing displays? Why do they charge more for storage on their iPhones? Why havnt they got SD Cards in them? 

Are you seriously going to charge us more for a small difference between 16 and 32 GB? SD cards cost a lot less and are easier to upgrade etc.

Why cannot you still download a file into your phone? 

These things seem trivial to me as a PC user and I find Apple very arrogant and shut off in their own world.

Fact is that a current generation lesser power PC already beats the benchmarks of this anticipated release or at least gives the same spec.

There are more powerful machines available out there at less cost and they work just fine.

I have nothing against Apple but I find their philosophy very strange. 

Why are they selling dual GPU as standard? We do not need them. At least give the option of choosing your own configuration. 

The Pro market may contain mostly of graphic artists etc but that is not the complete Pro market and for enthusiasts its useless because how many games are actually developed for MAC?

Over all, I find their approach very confusing and suspicious. Thunderbolt is very expensive and PCI is already faster and better than that. So why back this technology?

It is very clear that they want to focus on mass consumption and seem not to care so much about the pro community. I have seen friends move from Apple because of lack of powerful machines and no serious update for Logic for over three years. 

If the same thing happened to PC, I would have to move to Apple. I do not hate Apple. I think they do some things quite good but it seems pointless - this new approach.


Tanuj.


----------



## mark812 (Aug 4, 2013)

There isn't a single reason to choose Apple computer over a PC nowadays. Most audio programs work better on Windows, for $2000 you can build your own killer machine instead of a $4000 Mac. Macs aren't even prettier anymore. So why throw your money on it? Because you're used to working in Logic? There are plenty of great alternatives.


----------



## mac4d (Aug 4, 2013)

There are tons of reasons to choose mac over PC (for me).

There are always alternatives, but I don't need any alternatives.

What I have works. I'm fine with that.


----------



## rgames (Aug 4, 2013)

Apple has never been about performance. They're about mass-market brand image.

Just like Nike, Coca Cola, etc. Do Nike sneakers really perform better than any other sneakers? Of course not. People buy them because they say Nike, not because there's any measurable advantage in performance. And when you get brand loyalty, you can charge a *lot* more for the product.

That was Steve Jobs' genius: he was the first to brand computers (and, eventually, related gadgets). Before Jobs, computers were indistinguishable on the basis of anything except performance. He turned the computer from a commodity to a religious object, just like Nike did for sneakers.

Of course, you still have to make solid products to back up that brand image, and Apple does that. So, the new Mac Pro is, indeed, no better or worse than a lot of other less-expensive options. But the people who will buy it don't care. They'll buy it because it's Apple's version of the product. It's not a rational decision-making process.

It's like sports or religion or politics - there's no rational reason to be a Yankees fan or a Christian or a Democrat. You're either indoctrinated into it or you like the brand image and sign on. Even when the Yankees aren't performing, Yankees fans are still Yankees fans and they'll still pay to watch the Yankees lose.

rgames


----------



## mac4d (Aug 4, 2013)

jamwerks @ Sat Aug 03 said:


> I'm kind of amazed that the masses haven't yet understood. Take a good look at the lastest Ma(c)sh-can, take a look the latest Logic-Blow :mrgreen: (sorry, couldn't resist), and remember FCP X
> 
> Seems pretty clear where Apple is headed...


OK, Logic-Blow is pretty funny :mrgreen: 

Reminds me of Steely Dan song "throw out the jam till jamwerks says when" :mrgreen:


----------



## mark812 (Aug 4, 2013)

mac4d @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> There are tons of reasons to choose mac over PC (for me).



Like...?


----------



## Saxer (Aug 4, 2013)

the reason for my next mac is not apple, no fancy-schmancy brand, not the design, not even the mac itself. 
the reason for my next mac is logic.
logic is my main (or at least my second) instrument. sitting in front of cubase 7 or DP8 is like giving a right-handed man a left-hander guitar: you know exactly what you want and how to do it... but if you do it you do it wrong. 

i really tried to work with cubase but these endless windows opening and closing makes me mad. i have my screen-sets in logic with all editors open throughout. if i play something i can see it in notation, in the edit list and in piano roll while playing. mostly i select notes in the notation window and edit them in the event list. changing midi parameters is so easy to do without opening extra editor windows. i have tons of key commands in logic from which no other daw has ever heard before. i have a lot of presets made over the past 20 years and know where i can find them. a change would really hurt and throw me back for month. logic x is good, far of of the final-cut cut. no functions lost and a lot good new stuff inside! great!
so i'm really looking forward to the macpro!


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2013)

Saxer @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> the reason for my next mac is not apple, no fancy-schmancy brand, not the design, not even the mac itself.
> the reason for my next mac is logic.
> logic is my main (or at least my second) instrument. sitting in front of cubase 7 or DP8 is like giving a right-handed man a left-hander guitar: you know exactly what you want and how to do it... but if you do it you do it wrong.
> 
> ...



+1.


----------



## mac4d (Aug 4, 2013)

rgames @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> Apple has never been about performance. They're about mass-market brand image.
> 
> Just like Nike, Coca Cola, etc. Do Nike sneakers really perform better than any other sneakers? Of course not. People buy them because they say Nike, not because there's any measurable advantage in performance. And when you get brand loyalty, you can charge a *lot* more for the product.
> 
> ...


It's totally a rational decision making process. What you've written here is total nonsense. Apple is about performance, and innovation, they make great products that perform, do what people want, that's why people buy them. And that'll do as I could refute everything in your post, but it would be wasting my time. The 60 or so seconds I just put into this is also kind of a waste of time, but I can give you 60 or so seconds. Cheers.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 5, 2013)

I never understood why people get so touchy. It's just a damn machine.

But anyway, the machine will be killer. Powerful as hell. Lack of PCIe is a concern but I wouldn't be looking at that if I got this machine. I'd be looking at what audio interfaces use the usb3 or thunderbolt standard and how many voices you can stream from a usb3 or thunderbolt external device.


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 5, 2013)

:::scrolls back to check the thread title, wonders how it mutated into yet another imbecilic Mac vs PC thread, shrugs, moves on:::


----------



## muk (Aug 5, 2013)

rgames @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> That was Steve Jobs' genius: he was the first to brand computers (and, eventually, related gadgets).



I think that's spot on. These are facts: Apple products are more expensive than same spec pc versions - you pay for the brand, and the design. Some of Apple's hardware decisions were made for design reasons. Think of the Macbook Air, which left out a cd drive to be slimmer. Now some find this a reasonable approach, others don't. 

For me Apple is not an option simply because it is more expensive. And I always get a little reluctant when there is a cult about sth. I mean, camp in front of an Apple store when a new product is realeased? Come on, not for me. But to each his own.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 5, 2013)

There is another perhaps another factor. When you buy any Mac, you know that the components are good quality and will work together and with the OS well.

When I wanted to build a PC, I had to turn to someone knowledgeable, Jose', to tell me what components I should order that would all work well together. (Which they do, thanks to Jose'.)

In theory, it is possible to spend almost as much money building a PC but ending up with parts that do not work well together and with the OS, correct?


----------



## rgames (Aug 5, 2013)

mac4d @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> Apple is about performance, and innovation


Then why is the new Mac Pro built on a processor that's two years old?

Look - Apple makes great products. The new Mac Pro is sure to be a good performer. But don't kid yourself that the new Mac Pro is innovative. It's not. It's mature technology wrapped in a new image. Again - it's the image that matters to Apple and its fans, not the performance. Yes, the performance is good, but so is the performance from a lot of competing products that cost a *lot* less.

Apple charges more because of the image, not because of the performance.

rgames


----------



## germancomponist (Aug 5, 2013)

rgames @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> Apple charges more because of the image, not because of the performance.
> 
> rgames



+1


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 5, 2013)

And about my point in the post above yours, Richard and Gunther?


----------



## Daryl (Aug 5, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> And about my point in the post above yours, Richard and Gunther?


Yes and no. If you buy a load of random parts then sure you might have problems, but almost any shop bought PC will work pretty OK. The difference is that Windows users usually want better performance than just OK, and that's where the problems might start.

In the "old" days when Apple was using the dual CPU/server model, it would be much harder to replicate a similar good machine, because most ordinary punters don't need servers and therefore fewer builders had the requisite experience in configuring them, but I think that with the release of the new 12 core domestic machines, it will be much easier to replicate a machine that performs at least as well as the new Mac Pro.

Having said all that, if I based my work around using OSX, I'm not sure that I would risk using anything other than a machine bought from Apple.

D


----------



## rgames (Aug 5, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> And about my point in the post above yours, Richard and Gunther?


The point about component compatibility?

I've never had any problems with compatibilty. I've been building PC's for decades and just buy major-name products and they all work together just fine. They have to - they're all built to the same specs (the same specs that Apple uses for the Mac Pro, by the way, because it uses the same parts).

I don't tweak anything, either, other than overclocking a bit. Buy the hardware. Put it together. Install the OS. Install the drivers. Start writing music. It really is that easy. There's no magic in selecting components for a PC - pretty much anything will work with just about anything else as long as it's a major brand.

Building a PC is not like building a car. You can screw up building a car. You can't screw up building a PC. Prove it to yourself: go to a few of your home-town OEM PC stores and I guarantee you'll see the owner's kids in the back throwing the things together. It doesn't require any special skill to assemble a PC.

Think about it - that's why they're so cheap!

rgames


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 5, 2013)

rgames @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> Buy the hardware. Put it together. Install the OS. Install the drivers. Start writing music. It really is that easy. There's no magic in selecting components.
> 
> rgames



I don't disagree. But this discussion became about why people buy Macs for music. You buy a Mac you don't have to do ANY of that.

And I have heard lots of horror stories from people who bought PCs from Dell, HP, etc. and tried to do music on them, and they weren't pretty. So clearly, it is not as simple as a Mac, as there is no Mac that would happen with.

Mind you, having both now i will not be a candidate for this new MacPro. because for what will probably be less than half the cost I could get a newer more powerful version of my Mac Mini and upgrade my PC.


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 5, 2013)

And no need to build one if you're not into that. Just call a custom shop, select the parts, and wait for it to be delivered. All for about half the price of a Mac. And 5 years later, just switch-out the MB, cpu & memory, and voila, another new computer.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 5, 2013)

Oh yeah, just image, Richard. My 2010 Mac Pro that I use almost every day has gone down on me so many times...: 0, as in zero.

Go start a PC thread already, and leave us to our cult.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 5, 2013)

jamwerks @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> And no need to build one if you're not into that. Just call a custom shop, select the parts, and wait for it to be delivered. All for about half the price of a Mac. And 5 years later, just switch-out the MB, cpu & memory, and voila, another new computer.



Agreed. Truth be told, if Logic were cross platform, I might well have 2 PCs.


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 5, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> if Logic were cross platform, I might well have 2 PCs.



And I bet a lot of DP users will be be moving to pc.


----------



## Saxer (Aug 5, 2013)

how do you pc users are connected to the net? are there problems with viruses and worms?
it's a serious question without mac/pc fight... maybe i will have a pc as a side computer and i just don't know. is your pc in the net while working? do you have antivirus software on your work pc?


----------



## Daryl (Aug 5, 2013)

Saxer @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> how do you pc users are connected to the net? are there problems with viruses and worms?
> it's a serious question without mac/pc fight... maybe i will have a pc as a side computer and i just don't know. is your pc in the net while working? do you have antivirus software on your work pc?


There are a few solutions:

1) Don't connect your studio to the Internet
2) Have a Virus checker, but disable it whilst working
3) Don't download porn in your studio.

D


----------



## germancomponist (Aug 5, 2013)

Daryl @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> 1) Don't connect your studio to the Internet
> 
> D



+1

I have an extra PC only for the internet. Works perfect!


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 5, 2013)

Saxer @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> how do you pc users are connected to the net? are there problems with viruses and worms?
> it's a serious question without mac/pc fight... maybe i will have a pc as a side computer and i just don't know. is your pc in the net while working? do you have antivirus software on your work pc?



No antivirus software on my DAW-PCs. I only use the net to download updates, or install new software. Had no issues for 3 years now. All PCs are connected to the net 24/7. 

For browsing I use my 6 year old Mac Pro. 

You could also download/browse on a Mac, then move the files to PCs easily if they are networked together. I guess you could also move files you downloaded from Mac to PC via a USB Flash-Drive. 

Hope this is helpful. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Aug 5, 2013)

I have to say this that in the last 6 years, I have never had a virus on my PC.

Just lucky may be? I use the internet on my machine and everything works fine.

Of course, I do not surf the net where malicious content may be found. I have also never needed to re-install windows except when I have upgraded to a new machine for many years now. Vista was a disaster but I was using XP 64 back then. Windows 7 is amazing.

I no longer use a specific anti-virus. The default free one from microsoft is pretty good and I have not encountered any problems with performance even while leaving it on.

I use to use ESET Nod 32, that was pretty good too but Microsoft Essentials works as well.

Its ok to use a PC or a MAC - whatever you need to get the music done. 

For my needs, I will never look at Apple at least until PC's are as good as they are right now. 

But, I do understand that for a person who has been using Logic and Apple products for years, there may be little reason to move specially if they are already a professional and do not have the time or patience to learn a new environment - specially a new DAW.

A lot of my friends use Logic and they write some really good music. I dont think they will be writing better if they had Cubase like me - the best Machine/DAW is the one you are comfortable with and something that delivers with stability.


Tanuj.


----------



## Saxer (Aug 8, 2013)

thanks for all the answers!

not connecting my daw to the net would be nothing for me as i work a lot as co-composer/arranger and have to share files. somtimes every few minutes.

but i think the main thing in pc net behaviour is staying away from bad websites.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 8, 2013)

Saxer @ Thu Aug 08 said:


> thanks for all the answers!
> 
> not connecting my daw to the net would be nothing for me as i work a lot as co-composer/arranger and have to share files. somtimes every few minutes.
> 
> but i think the main thing in pc net behaviour is staying away from bad websites.



I have two PC's networked. My main daw PC stays off the internet. The other PC has internet connection. I download files on the internet PC and transfer them pretty easily over a shared file system I set up. I keep my shared files on a different drive other than my main OS drive. If a virus ever did attack it would attack your main drive while leaving other drives untouched.

Others I know keep a mac around for PT and Internet activity and use that in a network with their main PC.

My internet PC has virus protection. My Daw does not. My internet PC does have to block a virus now and again. The truth is that there are some land minds out there and it's hard to avoid all sites that have viruses. Some sites just get hacked. But, no virus has actually landed on my PC in about 5 years. Though I do get a warning that my antivirus has blocked something about 3 or 4 times a year.

Both PC's are used for music. There are some risk using a music PC for internet stuff. But, I take them and haven't been sorry about it in years.


----------



## gsilbers (Aug 9, 2013)

those new mac really look cool. those problable will smoke the current ones. 
ram spec in osx maverick is 128gb so who knows the real ram spec. ill be looking at owc to see since the apple spec usually lists the conservatie amount. 
no pcie expansion - no sweat. not sure why its important in this day in age and in the audio world. 20 gb per second tb2 can unsure tons of audo io tracks and fast transfers. and probably VEP will be using it instead of ethernet. (hopeful 
only thing im not fond off is the hard drive space. will have to get external drives which i prefer internal but oh well, maybe a cylinder of same size filled drived will come out so it looks like twin engines


----------



## dinerdog (Aug 9, 2013)

gsilbers - the round storage is a brilliant idea. You said it first, but I'll be anything there will be TB housing's in the round.

I can't wait to get one. I just hope the cost is close to the current ones, but absolutely want.


----------



## Andreas Moisa (Aug 10, 2013)

I won't bother with virus protection on the PC, although it will be connected to the internet 24/7. For all non music related stuff I use my Macbook Pro and I will never use anything else. DAW=PC, everything else=Mac. So to answer the initial question: I decided to not buy the new Mac Pro. There is nothing Pro about this machine, IMHO.

I just got a new windows machine and the performance of Nuendo is just outstanding. I finished building a new template with about 400 Kontakt Instruments and everything runs smooth!


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 10, 2013)

Interesting : http://www.macrumors.com/2013/08/09/steve-jobs-once-considered-killing-apples-pro-products/


----------



## AlexRuger (Aug 12, 2013)

Daryl @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> 1) Don't connect your studio to the Internet



That's hardly a reasonable solution nowadays. Nearly everything is moving towards a download-only purchase.

Instead, just turn the internet off most of the time. Problem solved.


----------



## muziksculp (Aug 17, 2013)

New Mac Pro Teaser video :


----------



## jleckie (Aug 17, 2013)

There's a new movie theater teaser which now says release is this fall.

The teaser is well done. Interesting marketing though. A movie audience? Eh-why not.


----------



## sluggo (Aug 17, 2013)

muziksculp @ Sat Aug 17 said:


> New Mac Pro Teaser video :




Is it me or does the audio in that youtube video sound insanely over compressed (pumping).


----------



## gsilbers (Aug 17, 2013)

sluggo @ Sat Aug 17 said:


> muziksculp @ Sat Aug 17 said:
> 
> 
> > New Mac Pro Teaser video :
> ...




audio recorded through the camera mic?


----------



## Rv5 (Aug 17, 2013)

We'll all be in a queue like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3OSoUhy9RI

I've always loved PCs, always built them but have been very happy with upgrading to a mac pro - just for stability. It worked for me - my whole system and workflow became more stable than what I'd previously experienced with PC.

I think Windows 7 is great, and Windows 8 is basically Windows 7 with a front end and works great. That's the first OS Iv'e found since XP to really run reliably.

I think the problem with PCs is the vast range of components coming together and the cheap components at that. If our only option was a PC that cost £2000 upwards that had all tested hardware for compatibility, then you'd have yourself something very stable (with W7+).

The new system is intriguing from a geek-perspective, a whole new hardware design for a computer. The sheek market Apple has captivated will soak it up; they do make 'good-looking' products.

As for practicality, my guess is you could add another two slave PCs that your existing MacPro will deal with via VEP. This could triple your memory, storage space and processor power for the same price.


----------



## Adrian Myers (Aug 19, 2013)

Just a quick note on the PC security issue:

It's not a problem, especially now with Windows 8 having rolled quite a few features into Defender and with frequent updates (make sure you let Windows Update do its thing, preventative maintenance is necessary). I use Chrome as my browser, gmail for email, and Skype for messaging, and everything has been grand for a long time.

I work full-time on a Windows PC, as a game engine programmer. Everything I do requires connectivity, and this has been true since I started doing this stuff in 1998. I've had irritating virus episodes that required reformatting in that time, but my reformatting pace is pretty leisurely (about once every three years). I build all of my machines... they are rock solid and very inexpensive. There's no way being on a PC is a hinderance or undue vulnerability. Just be smart.


----------

