# Multiple Composers Credit



## tboston007 (Sep 29, 2016)

Hello,

I was recently hired by a composer to engineer some sessions for a film he was working on. I met the directors during those sessions and formed a good relationship.

The Directors then asked me to work on the audio for the film, some Sound Design (adding sound elements) Cleaning Dialogue and Final Re-Recording Mix.

It turned out the film needed a bit more music to fill out the soundtrack. When it was all said and done I had composed 3 new cues for the film that were actual cues, not just Sound Design elements. They want to put in credits....

Music by....(original composer)

Sound Design by....(me)

I requested they put
Music by...
(Original Composer)
(Me)

They said they were not comfortable with that based on their relationship with the original composer.

I then asked for them to put Additional Music by...(me)

They declined and said they were comfortable putting Sound Design but not anything to do with Music by. 

Can anyone offer any insights into their own experience with something like this or if there are any specific protocols for multiple composers on a project. I was hired by the directors to do the new cues not the original composer. Thanks!


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## AlexRuger (Sep 29, 2016)

The Music by Him and You is definitely not right, but an Additional Music credit absolutely is. I've always thought that credit is non-negotiable and should simply be an accurate representation of what happened. So, if you're looking to push the matter more, I'd say that you're in the right.

All that said, don't burn a bridge or ruin a relationship over a single credit. Maybe come to a compromise--ask if you can put Additional Music on IMDb, but not in the movie's credits.


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## JohnG (Sep 29, 2016)

It's not always cut and dried who "deserves" an Additional Music By.. credit. Some people look at it based on a number of criteria:

1. What percentage of the total music in the film is yours? Is it more than 10%? 30%?

2. Is it based on themes of someone else? Is it arranging / orchestrating-"plus"?

3. How conspicuous is it? Is it the main titles? The main battle scene? 

4. Is it underscore or is it source cues?

I don't expect you to answer all this in public of course. Just criteria some people would consider. As you may know, on major projects sometimes "orchestrators" end up writing a surprising amount of music. In some situations, music editors arguably create a lot of the score as well; even though it may be a _musique concrete_ of the composer's work, it still has elements of compositional decision-making.

Who gets credit is not cut and dried; in the end, credits are up to the producers unless one has a contract in place. If it's a big project I'd normally focus on cue sheet credit for BMI or ASCAP, since that's worth real money.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Sep 29, 2016)

Aren't credits normally dealt with in the contract? If so then I think they have the right to put down only what was agreed upon then. I've never gotten any onscreen credit or imdb credit for anything I've done even though the composer sent the members of his music team. They simply chose to not put it in as they weren't obliged to.


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## givemenoughrope (Sep 29, 2016)

Just show them examples of 'additional music' in tv/film and how many cues were written by whom in each case. Most directors/producers will do what they've seen others do...they'll see it as the standard and follow suit. Remind them you were under the impression that you'd at least get an 'additional credit'. But don't piss them off.


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## chillbot (Sep 29, 2016)

One credit is not worth it I would let it go.

Make sure you get the cue sheet credit, that's what matters.

The key line here is "I was recently hired by the composer". It is considered bad form and will not get you hired many more times by the composer or any other composers if you are perceived as having gone over the composer's head and made your own relationship with the people who hired the composer, _even if they approached you_ and you did nothing to merit it.


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## chillbot (Sep 29, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> I've always thought that credit is non-negotiable and should simply be an accurate representation of what happened.


I've found this to never be true. Though in principle it sounds lovely!


JohnG said:


> Who gets credit is not cut and dried; in the end, credits are up to the producers unless one has a contract in place.


This.


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## NoamL (Sep 29, 2016)

chillbot said:


> It is considered bad form and will not get you hired many more times by the composer or any other composers if you are perceived as having gone over the composer's head and made your own relationship with the people who hired the composer, _even if they approached you_ and you did nothing to merit it.



I was going to post exactly this.

Even though it's not your fault and IMO it's the director(s) who were in the wrong, your #1 priority moving forward should be considering how the _composer_ would feel if he sees you getting an additional music credit. Willing to hire you again? I wouldn't bet on it.

The composer-director relationship is fraught enough without having your music pitted against someone else's. I have been on both sides of that (had my music replace someone else's on a film, and vice versa on another) and it usually ends the working relationship.

Also no offense but it sounds like an amateur project. It's usually the amateur directors who post ads asking for "someone to handle sound design, sound mix and music composition" as if those are the same job. You may of course have skills in all these areas. What I'm saying is unless this is a big project it's not worth your time, effort and relationships to pursue this.


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## mac (Sep 29, 2016)

Like everyone else says, don't burn your bridges. I don't know how experienced you are so I don't mean to patronise, but I'd put this down to a learning experience. Always sort this kind of thing out in the contract stage, always


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## Smikes77 (Sep 29, 2016)

Would it be a good idea to approach the composer and ask how he feels about you getting that credit?


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## chillbot (Sep 29, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> Would it be a good idea to approach the composer and ask how he feels about you getting that credit?


To me, also a very bad idea. Not trying to beat this to death but sometimes letting it go and taking the high road is the best answer and may help you in the end. At least not hurt you.

Looking at it from the original composer's view: if you come to me and say "hey I wrote three cues is it ok if I ask for credit" what am I supposed to say? It's really hard for the composer to justify saying no in that spot, and it may cause a lot of resentment both ways.

Looking at it from the additional music composer's view: I would want the reputation of doing whatever needed to be done to make the project work... it is one thing to be asked (presumably by the composer) to help with the music and then be rewarded with screen credit, it is entirely another to have music inserted into the film without the composer's knowledge and _asking_ for screen credit. The end result of screen credit is the same but if you think the latter won't affect your reputation you haven't worked in LA for very long (for better or for worse). Just my .02 cents.


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## Smikes77 (Sep 29, 2016)

chillbot said:


> To me, also a very bad idea. Not trying to beat this to death but sometimes letting it go and taking the high road is the best answer and may help you in the end. At least not hurt you.
> 
> Looking at it from the original composer's view: if you come to me and say "hey I wrote three cues is it ok if I ask for credit" what am I supposed to say? It's really hard for the composer to justify saying no in that spot, and it may cause a lot of resentment both ways.
> 
> Looking at it from the additional music composer's view: I would want the reputation of doing whatever needed to be done to make the project work... it is one thing to be asked (presumably by the composer) to help with the music and then be rewarded with screen credit, it is entirely another to have music inserted into the film without the composer's knowledge and _asking_ for screen credit. The end result of screen credit is the same but if you think the latter won't affect your reputation you haven't worked in LA for very long (for better or for worse). Just my .02 cents.



If I was the composer, and someone had written some cues and came to me and asked if it was ok to get 'additional music by...' then I would gladly give it. I certainly wouldn't go over the composers head.

But I see your point sir, and duly noted for myself.


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## JohnG (Sep 29, 2016)

Put differently, it's a land mine. No need to step on it deliberately. Pursue the cue sheet credit instead.


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## chillbot (Sep 29, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> If I was the composer, and someone had written some cues and came to me and asked if it was ok to get 'additional music by...' then I would gladly give it. I certainly wouldn't go over the composers head.



I don't know the background. The composer may have been working on this film for 6 months or 6 years (it happens). There might be 100+ minutes of music in it. The composer may be pissed that you got any music in there at all. To put one "additional music by" credit in the film can invalidate the composer's entire work, for all the viewers know it was really 60/40, not 95/5. More importantly, they don't know which tracks were written by whom. There is a certain pride of ownership that happens after a certain amount of time.

All this is entirely hypothetical... as John said context is important.

I'm glad you would give credit. I would too, if asked.... probably. I'm passionate about this topic because I've seen a bunch of very similar real-life examples that didn't end well. I would post some stories but I think even without names it wouldn't be a good idea.


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## Smikes77 (Sep 29, 2016)

chillbot said:


> I don't know the background. The composer may have been working on this film for 6 months or 6 years (it happens). There might be 100+ minutes of music in it. The composer may be pissed that you got any music in there at all. To put one "additional music by" credit in the film can invalidate the composer's entire work, for all the viewers know it was really 60/40, not 95/5. More importantly, they don't know which tracks were written by whom. There is a certain pride of ownership that happens after a certain amount of time.
> 
> All this is entirely hypothetical... as John said context is important.
> 
> I'm glad you would give credit. I would too, if asked.... probably. I'm passionate about this topic because I've seen a bunch of very similar real-life examples that didn't end well. I would post some stories but I think even without names it wouldn't be a good idea.



Fair enough, I understand.


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## tboston007 (Sep 29, 2016)

Thank you everyone for such thoughtful responses. The relationships are very important especially my relationship with the composer. All the advice was really helpful, I can see the land mines that can be set off inadvertently by going over or around the lead composer. 

Is it possible to put additional music or added composer credit on IMDB?


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## AlexRuger (Sep 30, 2016)

chillbot said:


> I've found this to never be true. Though in principle it sounds lovely!



I guess I should have said "felt" instead of "thought," as yeah it's never quite that simple. But it is, I think, at least a useful mindset as a starting point.



tboston007 said:


> Is it possible to put additional music or added composer credit on IMDB?



Totally, you just need an IMDb account. But, again, in this particular case I would make sure that everyone involved is cool with you doing that.


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## gsilbers (Sep 30, 2016)

chillbot said:


> I don't know the background. The composer may have been working on this film for 6 months or 6 years (it happens). There might be 100+ minutes of music in it. The composer may be pissed that you got any music in there at all. To put one "additional music by" credit in the film can invalidate the composer's entire work, for all the viewers know it was really 60/40, not 95/5. More importantly, they don't know which tracks were written by whom. There is a certain pride of ownership that happens after a certain amount of time.
> 
> All this is entirely hypothetical... as John said context is important.
> 
> I'm glad you would give credit. I would too, if asked.... probably. I'm passionate about this topic because I've seen a bunch of very similar real-life examples that didn't end well. I would post some stories but I think even without names it wouldn't be a good idea.



I am wondering if its a cultural thing. Here in LA, for those who have worked on several shows/films its more like work while outside ive noticed post that seem more about "art" and the "way it should be". we know how easy is to burn bridges. something like "credit" in most movies and tv (most movies is NOT those blockbusters or high end tv shows) is not that important as keeping those connections and making new ones. you can easily go to imdb or put up info on your website/facebook etc. but pushing for credit or other minor things might leave a sour taste on producers/directors.
with that said, obviously if you create the whole score but the producers license one min of a hanz zimmer track and they put composer credit hans zimmer then yes.. there is an issue. 
a lot of times those things are in the contract. the contract normally says the producers are the ones who ultimately choose the credits, the order of the credit etc just because its a thing with diva actors.


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