# Spitfie solo strings problem



## Rossy (May 25, 2020)

I have just downloaded the spitfire solo strings library and I am having issues with long legato notes. I feel that the note is not overly long but I can hear what sounds like the bow coming to the end of its travel and a very short jump in sound as the bow is pulled back. I intend to read the manual but since I'm trying it out now, is there a setting to get a smooth long bow sound?


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## jbuhler (May 25, 2020)

The rebowing is automatic and I don’t think there’s a way to extend it. (No infinite bows for this library.) My recollection is that the high dynamic layer gives a shorter duration than the lower dynamic layers. On the whole I find that the rebowings generally sound musical. You can make a manual rebow earlier if you need to. On the other hand I don’t recall the rebow coming in after a short duration. It feels very much like the duration I’d expect from a real violinist.


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## Rossy (May 25, 2020)

I hope that's not true as it is quite pronounced and I have been listening to classical music for over 40 years and never heard it that obvious. I'll have to contact spitfire as I bought their BBC's core and purchased this based on that quality.


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## jbuhler (May 25, 2020)

Well, it would help if you said what articulation you are hearing this on and what instrument. Or better yet if you posted an example. As I said the rebowing is baked into the samples but I wouldn’t say it ever struck me as overly short or unusable. It feels very much like the amount of time it would take to come to the end of the bow and the bow change sounds like a bow change. And I don’t recall anyone complaining about this before. Lots of complaints about the tone, the bumpy transitions between dynamic layers, and the vibrato, but not about the rendering of the bow changes.


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## Rossy (May 25, 2020)

As I said in my original post, I am trying the legato patches and moving from one note to the other, about 4 or so seconds, I can hear a very pronounced change in the bow direction. It is definitely audible enough to effect the music. I have tried all the instruments using legato and it's there. As I don't know you knowledge on bowing technique and without getting into a heated discussion, most musicians I have heard and met, typical only use that sound when playing aggressively or quickly. I am trying to play a slow solo piece and I feel the sound is overly pronounced, it could be a red Robin thing but I am not familiar enough with this library. I will be emailing them now.
Thanks for replying


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

I got solo strings this morning and this is one of the first things I noticed too. The rebow isn't smooth, it has a distinct attack. I'll see if I can grab the actual patch/note that it's prominent on.


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## wetalkofdreams (May 26, 2020)

There's a long thread on this somewhere but I can't remember what it's called.

The rebowing is a very big prominent feature in this library, and the vibrato I found to be really difficult to get used to as well.

This library really isn't as user friendly as some of their other libraries, but I will say that once you embrace the rebowing and how the vibrato works, this library can really sing (and after a year of owning it, i've grown to adore this library).

But like you, this wasn't what I was expecting the library to function as. I share your frustration.


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## P3TAAL (May 26, 2020)

I have the British Drama toolkit and the same thing happens in that. It's not that it is unexpected but just as Rossy said above it is quite pronounced. I had to overlay it with other string samples to smoothen it out a bit. Im not generally after absolute meticulous realism so I could do without the obvious re-bowing. I just tried Spitfire Chamber strings & Chris Hein Solo Strings which both seem fine or at least do not have an obvious audible re-bow. I do mostly find ways around the issue though.


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## P3TAAL (May 26, 2020)

Maybe some of you more experienced users could give a few tips about how you incorporate the re-bow into your compositions. I have never played a real string instrument but I would assume you would try to re-bow in time with the music. Something I find a little difficult with the baked in re-bow.


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## GNP (May 26, 2020)

Understandable. There should be options for a baked-in rebow, and an artifically extended seamless one.


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## StillLife (May 26, 2020)

I find that the modwheel helps in shaping the arcs (see virtual all ISM's posts on the topic) and keeping the rebow more silent, when you want it to be. Hard to explain (by me, check posts by Ism!).


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

I think this is one of ism's posts that mentions the vibrato https://vi-control.net/community/th...rned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-vibrato.74981/


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

Thanks everyone, and this is why I think demos are important, even if their only 7 days. My funds are tight as this is a hobby for me, passionate though it is, I cant afford to shell out $239 only to have to muck around with the software to do something that real players can do, I know because I have watched them do it. I'll be contacting spitfire today for a refund and hopefully I'll get it as it's been less than 24 hours since my purchase but who knows.
I appreciate everyone's input.


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

I have been trying to re write my parts to fit in with this re bow thing and I gave up as this was not how I envisioned the piece. If I get no love from spitfire as far as replacing it, am i able to sell the library?


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## ism (May 26, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I cant afford to shell out $239 only to have to muck around with the software to do something that real players can do,



I feel for you. I know this feeling of being excited to compose something very specific and very expressive and then realizing that it's just not possible to get there with sample.


But however lamentably, the expectation that a solo string library should simply and effortlessly just do what real players can do is simply not realisitc - or psychologically healthy.

Here’s the diagram I keep sharing. Personally, I love Spitfire Solo Strings, it opens up expressive musical dimensions that I could never reach for without it. But the line between the experience of joy at what it can do and the despair at what it can’t unavoidaly needs to be informed by understanding how the sheer density of all the physics and aesthetic dimensions involved in real string players playing in a quartet, ‘watching eachother’s wrists” reaches into expressive musical spaces that remain light years beyond what the th technology of even the most state of the art sample libraries can do, or are likely to ever be able to do in out lifetimes, if ever.

That said, there is a learning curve to SsS. You don’t get instant gratification, but it really does repay the effort, I feel.


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

That's a great diagram and I agree with what your saying. After some of my own research over the last 3 hours here is what I have come up with,
The piece I wrote with 2 parts for violin and celli have their longest note at 3.3 seconds, the spitfire solo violin and cello rebow at about 2.3 - 2.6 seconds ( I have tried it multiple times) I feel the rebow is overly aggressive and can be heard easily as the parts of the piece are quiet. Below is a link to bowing with the longest sustained note about 5.9 seconds. Spitfire touts that they use the finest musicians and recording and yet when I listen to many of my classical recordings, this harsh rebowing is very sparse as it obviously can take away from the beauty of the sound and tone. I agree that there will be limitations but how hard can it be to record a tip to tip slow bow of a violin?


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

P3TAAL said:


> I have never played a real string instrument but I would assume you would try to re-bow in time with the music. Something I find a little difficult with the baked in re-bow.


Well, in real life, bow speed is variable based on skill and quality of bow. A good player merely "saves bow" for a long note. Keep in mind that a good composer would/should be aware that there is a finite limit to how long a typical violinist can hold a note. Listen to the famous Bach Air (also called "Air on the G String). When done as a quartet for a gig, it's kinda like "Did I have my Wheaties today"? It's almost too long for one bow, but maybe not. It's the ultimate "save a lotta bow here".

For Spitfire, try the first desk legato. Some bow retakes are way more pronounced than others. Some are fairly good. For the record, it's not the bow: it's the vibrato. Listen carefully, the player slows down the vibrato at the end, or starts with no vibrato and speeds it up. On some notes, it's pretty constant and it works well. On others, the player basically stops the vibrato and one can hear it.

How to get around it- well, don't write long notes.  But listen to middle C, that works pretty well. Another thing to do would simply get used to the sound, because it's more real than the opposite. Doesn't bother me one bit. The "infinite" bow bothers me a lot OTOH. I'm always waiting for them to retake. (BTW, "retake" is a far better term than "re-bow." )

One might have some luck using a lower velocity layer than boosting it by 3db or so after it's recorded (bounce to audio). The softer the playing, the longer one can hold a bow. It's probably a more subdued vibrato which will help. 


Rossy said:


> how hard can it be to record a tip to tip slow bow of a violin?


Hard.  And it's "tip to frog". 

There are so many variables. Physics, acoustics, there are so many bow stroke possibilities. And as I mentioned, the vibrato is the thing. It seems silly, it's not: it's incredibly hard to keep vibrato in the LH and not alter it while retaking with the RH. It just is. BTW, some of the long flautando notes have bow changes that are prettty good. As for any that aren't, I'd give Spitfire credit as the bow change sound is very natural and authentic sounding.


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

Here's an interesting video about bow speed etc. Check out the 2 first fiddles (on the left). The first note is basically inaudible (it shouldn't be). They are saving bow like mad because it's a long note. As you see, everything comes with a price. In this case, the first note of the Melody is inaudible. Personally, I would have the 2 fiddles use 2 bows and stagger the timing. That way, one could actually hear the damn note. Then again, I'm not a baroque player blah blah... but c'mon. It's not enough bow.


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## P3TAAL (May 26, 2020)

Thanks Sears, very interesting, I'm just about to watch the video you have attached here but I went off and watched another performance of Air on a G string, I was only concentrating on the main performer but couldn't spot any re-takes on long notes. I suppose this is deliberate and was interpreted by the performer this way so he would not have to re-take in those places. 

This is the link to the video

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CvglW3KNSsQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

P3TAAL said:


> I was only concentrating on the main performer but couldn't spot any re-takes on long notes.


In real life. It all depends. In that video, he's mic'ed up the wazoo. It all depends on speed, acoustics (reverb-y is good), quality of bow, skill etc. In the baroque video, what I was going for is that long notes come with a price. Spitfire has very intense solo strings, great sound. But with that romantic-sounding intensity, it's going to be harder to get a long note. IMO they weren't going for that sound. The flautandos are a lot better for long notes because they aren't intense and use a lot less pressure. Much easier to hold a long flautando note than a ballsy fortissimo gypsy-type note.


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## wetalkofdreams (May 26, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I have been trying to re write my parts to fit in with this re bow thing and I gave up as this was not how I envisioned the piece. If I get no love from spitfire as far as replacing it, am i able to sell the library?



No - Spitfire don't allow reselling. I really hope you're able to get a refund but I doubt it'll happen. Once a product has been downloaded their FAQ says they won't refund.


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## RonV (May 26, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I have been trying to re write my parts to fit in with this re bow thing and I gave up as this was not how I envisioned the piece. If I get no love from spitfire as far as replacing it, am i able to sell the library?


Cinesamples Solo strings (which I don't have) actually has a non-latching keyswitch that you can use as desired to stop their solo string rebowing. It's called infinite sustain or similar. I guess that Spitfire chose not to implement anything similar.


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

I'm going to double check this tonight to make sure this is true... I have the original Spitfire Solo Strings and I'm pretty sure the cello legato patch doesn't have a harsh stark rebow like the new version does. I'll try and do a quick example to show what I mean or, come back and say that I'm talking rubbish. Whichever proves to be true 

I've yet to write anything with the new strings yet and only had a quick noodle before work where I heard the rebow on the cello and cringed. But maybe it is just a case of accepting this is how it sounds and get on with it. It kinda rules out long emotional cello lines though which was one of my intentions with this library (Tina Guo, you're back in the running...)

Will update later...


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

For the record, here's the Air done with 2 bows, as quartet.


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## Pando (May 26, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> It's not enough bow.



Thankfully all brass/woodwind players have the lungs of an elephant as it's clearly not the instrument.


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

Pando said:


> Thankfully all brass/woodwind players have the lungs of an elephant as it's clearly not the instrument.


I enjoy the colors of a woodwind section. No, not "tone colors", the colors they turn when playing something like Afternoon of a faun. My favorite is "might pass out blue", it goes with the tuxes.


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> In real life. It all depends. In that video, he's mic'ed up the wazoo. It all depends on speed, acoustics (reverb-y is good), quality of bow, skill etc. In the baroque video, what I was going for is that long notes come with a price. Spitfire has very intense solo strings, great sound. But with that romantic-sounding intensity, it's going to be harder to get a long note. IMO they weren't going for that sound. The flautandos are a lot better for long notes because they aren't intense and use a lot less pressure. Much easier to hold a long flautando note than a ballsy fortissimo gypsy-type note.



Good points but still, I have timed the re bow at under 3 seconds, I defy any violinist, cellist or bass player that could not hold a single note for over 3 seconds. That's not realistic as a musician, any competent string player can hold a note longer than that. I should be able to select which note for this kind of money (originally $399). I'm not loaded and so if i'm out $239 because I'm not happy with their techniques and cant return the product (I have had it less that 24 hours) and they still have not gotten back to me, it will definitely be my last purchase with them.


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

Here's the progressive patch....


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I defy any violinist, cellist or bass player that could not hold a single note for over 3 seconds.


I just tried it. I have my electric violin out, not hooked up to an amp etc. 23 seconds.  Of course it was really soft etc. I don't think I've ever timed a note before.


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## ism (May 26, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> But with that romantic-sounding intensity, it's going to be harder to get a long note. IMO they weren't going for that sound. The flautandos are a lot better for long notes because they aren't intense and use a lot less pressure. Much easier to hold a long flautando note than a ballsy fortissimo gypsy-type note.



This is all great stuff, very helpful.




Mornats said:


> I've yet to write anything with the new strings yet and only had a quick noodle before work where I heard the rebow on the cello and cringed. But maybe it is just a case of accepting this is how it sounds and get on with it. It kinda rules out long emotional cello lines though which was one of my intentions with this library (Tina Guo, you're back in the running...)




Three practical suggestion in working with this library.

1. There's an ethos of bumpiness in this library, and at some point you just kind of need to go with it.

There's a kind of musicality of that hinges on pristinely languorous expressiveness in your arcs that just isn't what this library is about. There are libraries that do that - like Tina Guo - but only by recording the arcs. Tina Guo is lovely. But it's literally a single arc. Every single note you play will be a single arc. It's a beautiful arc. And it totally works for the Game of Thones theme. But it's a single arc, over and over and over on *every* *single* note.

My go-to example on this bumpiness is this noodles:



Opinion is sharply divided on how this sounds. If you listen to this with a cognitive hat on, you can absolutely here the bumpiness in the transitions and rebowing. Some people find the bumpiness a deal breaker and go to, for instance, VSL instead.

I can really appreciate the technical virtuosity of the VSL solo cello, it's ability to play pristinely smooth expressive lines, and the incredible skill with which some people create mock ups that really give you a sense of how great it will sound with a real cello. But I would probably never want to listen to in as music.

Wheres when I take my cognitive hat off and list to even this silly little noodle as music - I'm standing in the hall at AIR, feeling the vibrating air of the cello, and I absolutely love the feeling of being immersed in a space with a virtuosic cellist, and really could care less about a bit of bumpiness in the transition.


2. Particularly speaking to this



Sears Poncho said:


> But with that romantic-sounding intensity, it's going to be harder to get a long note. IMO they weren't going for that sound.



I agree that this just isn't a library aiming for an even, pristinely smooth baroque sound.

But neither am I interested in the high-romanic epic film sound that it's, at least in part, marketed to.

One of the things I like to do is adjust the dynamics to make the lowest dynamic layer a lot more prominent. The lowest dynamic layers have just a gorgeous textural quality. But the default dynamic layer is barely audible unless you crank up the volume to that you blow out your ears when you crescendo into the higher dynamics. Which is consistent with the epic romantic sensibility of the Andy Blaney demos.

The script I talk about on the thread linked about (here it is again):






Spitfire Solo Strings: How I learned to stop worrying and love vibrato


So the short version here, is that after a lot of experimenting, and via a "performance vibrato" script that I've developed, I think I've finally managed to get my head around the vibrato in Spitfire solo strings. And found a way to make it much more playable 'out-of-the-box'. Here's my first...




vi-control.net





has a slider to adjust the dynamics such that you can use a lot more of the lower dynamics in your dynamics arcs without going deaf in the higher layers.

Which to me gives this library a much softer feel, suitable for more neo-classical textures, which I really love.


3. The vibrato and crafting the arcs.




Mornats said:


> I've yet to write anything with the new strings yet and only had a quick noodle before work where I heard the rebow on the cello and cringed. But maybe it is just a case of accepting this is how it sounds and get on with it. It kinda rules out long emotional cello lines though which was one of my intentions with this library (Tina Guo, you're back in the running...)



The issues with both bumpiness and the long dynamics are, I won't say solved, but substantially mitigated if you craft your arcs carefully - including in the dimension of vibrato. The above example, and, well here's a noodle across the main 3 instruments (this was before the virtuosic violin came out).



So I'd argue that you absolutely can get long arcs - though obviously not languorously, pristinely smooth arcs - by various combinations of crafting them across vibrato and the dynamics, and using the progressive vibrato longs, the flautandos and so forth. (I'm going to have to start experimenting more with the flautandos I think)

There's never going to be the kind of pristinely smooth languorous arcs of the Tina Guo. But there is simply no existing technology that presently allows you to get both the sound quality of SF and SsS and the control of shaping your arcs in the way you can with SsS at once. VSL gives you the the control, but at the cost of the sonority. Tina Guo gives you the languorous smoothness, but at the cost never being able to craft your arcs.

CSSS, Vir Harmonics Chris Hein, all make different compromises and all have their own completely amazing sweet spots. But none of them are remotely convincing in the same sweet spot as SF.


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## M Abela (May 26, 2020)

They do, both the solo violin and the solo cello. I ended up having to use CSSS instead and now the Spitfire solo string libraries are just sitting there.



Mornats said:


> I'm going to double check this tonight to make sure this is true... I have the original Spitfire Solo Strings and I'm pretty sure the cello legato patch doesn't have a harsh stark rebow like the new version does. I'll try and do a quick example to show what I mean or, come back and say that I'm talking rubbish. Whichever proves to be true
> 
> I've yet to write anything with the new strings yet and only had a quick noodle before work where I heard the rebow on the cello and cringed. But maybe it is just a case of accepting this is how it sounds and get on with it. It kinda rules out long emotional cello lines though which was one of my intentions with this library (Tina Guo, you're back in the running...)
> 
> Will update later...


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## ism (May 26, 2020)

And don't forget SsS can do crazy stuff like this:


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

For the hell of it, since I'm incredibly bored: one bow. About 18 seconds. Almost no vibrato. I could hold it longer if I had a protein bar.  It's an electric violin, which doesn't matter at all. Same bow as my regular fiddle.


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## ism (May 26, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> For the hell of it, since I'm incredibly bored: one bow. About 18 seconds. Almost no vibrato. I could hold it longer if I had a protein bar.  It's an electric violin, which doesn't matter at all. Same bow as my regular fiddle.


would you ever play a note that long in a composition, at least without more idiomatic shaping?


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

ism said:


> would you ever play a note that long in a composition, at least without more idiomatic shaping?


Fratres does.  Second fiddle in the quartet version plays a double-stop for 5 minutes. 

In an orchestra one would. The beginning of Mahler 1. Lots of modern stuff. Players "stagger" bow changes so it sounds like it's all constant. Just a wall of sound. No, there aren't many concertos that ask for that. Even without vibrato and soft, it's a lot harder than it may seem.


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## P3TAAL (May 26, 2020)

Rossy said:


> Good points but still, I have timed the re bow at under 3 seconds, I defy any violinist, cellist or bass player that could not hold a single note for over 3 seconds. That's not realistic as a musician, any competent string player can hold a note longer than that. I should be able to select which note for this kind of money (originally $399). I'm not loaded and so if i'm out $239 because I'm not happy with their techniques and cant return the product (I have had it less that 24 hours) and they still have not gotten back to me, it will definitely be my last purchase with them.



See how they respond first Rossy. They might surprise you


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## jbuhler (May 26, 2020)

Just had another run through the library comparing virtuoso and first desk violin. The rebows vary a lot depending on pitch and dynamic layer. I do not find the rebows in general prominent, though they are more so at higher dynamic levels. In context I rarely have issues with them and more often than not I find them inspired in choice for rebowing. But I also like the vibrato and the general bumpiness of the library.


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

ism said:


> would you ever play a note that long in a composition, at least without more idiomatic shaping?


You should check out some of my earlier "compositions" hehe.

I'll definitely have to share some examples of the rebow that I dislike. None of the examples above come close to what I heard and in fact, the violin reviews do sound musical to me. On the cello it's more like a record jumping than a rebow transition. But again I'll add the disclaimer that I spent 10 minutes noodling so my memory may be biased by reading what others have wrote about it.


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## ism (May 26, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Just had another run through the library comparing virtuoso and first desk violin. The rebows vary a lot depending on pitch and dynamic layer. I do not find the rebows in general prominent, though they are more so at higher dynamic levels. In context I rarely have issues with them and more often than not I find them inspired in choice for rebowing. But I also like the vibrato and the general bumpiness of the library.



I think this may be a much more concise version of what I was trying to say.

One of the things that makes this library have such poor plonkability is that when you're starting out, you're probably just pressing notes to see what they sound like, for there's a bit of learning curve in working out how to work with cc1 and cc11. 


And the different between this library with idiomatically coordinated performance of cc1 and cc11 (see the above link for my take on that) is night and day.

Plonked in statically - with no or minimal variation of either cc1 or cc11, it's harsh and bumpy.

But performed with a basic sense of idiomatic arcs, it becomes a very different libraries.

In the above noodle I shared, nearly every note is transitioning across 6 layers - 3 dynamics x 2 vib/non-vib, sometimes multiple times. There's a cost of a certain bumpiness to this, but it also serves to keep things dynamic, idiomatic, and just by merit of keeping the samples moving you can avoid much of the bumpiness of the rebowings. It's also where the instruments depth of performability comes from.


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## Sears Poncho (May 26, 2020)

Okay, here are 3:

1. CSSS violin 1. Obviously looped.

2. Taylor Davis (Cinesamples)

3. Tina Guo 2

For 2 and 3, I took the "infinity loop" off so one could hear the bow changes...


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## StillLife (May 26, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I'm going to double check this tonight to make sure this is true... I have the original Spitfire Solo Strings and I'm pretty sure the cello legato patch doesn't have a harsh stark rebow like the new version does. I'll try and do a quick example to show what I mean or, come back and say that I'm talking rubbish. Whichever proves to be true
> 
> I've yet to write anything with the new strings yet and only had a quick noodle before work where I heard the rebow on the cello and cringed. But maybe it is just a case of accepting this is how it sounds and get on with it. It kinda rules out long emotional cello lines though which was one of my intentions with this library (Tina Guo, you're back in the running...)
> 
> Will update later...


Which articulation do you use? I suggest the progressive vibrato. It's what you hear in my little improw Lowdown which I posted in another thread and which as pretty long cello notes.


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

M Abela said:


> They do, both the solo violin and the solo cello. I ended up having to use CSSS instead and now the Spitfire solo string libraries are just sitting there.


That's very upsetting


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

StillLife said:


> Which articulation do you use? I suggest the progressive vibrato. It's what you hear in my little improw Lowdown which I posted in another thread and which as pretty long cello notes.


I'm still minutes into the library so it's just the Cello - legato in the legato folder that I'm listening to. Where's the progressive vibrato cello patch? I've not found that one yet


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

StillLife said:


> Which articulation do you use? I suggest the progressive vibrato. It's what you hear in my little improw Lowdown which I posted in another thread and which as pretty long cello notes.


I'll try that tonight but the goal is to use the legato patch.


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

Here's a few notes played using the Cello - legato patch. Tree mic, vibrato on full, some dynamics used. That rebow sound harsh to me. As a comparison I put the same midi through the original solo strings cello legato patch. Rebow is in the same position it seems but is a bit less prominent (to the point where I may not have been bothered by it).


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## StillLife (May 26, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I'm still minutes into the library so it's just the Cello - legato in the legato folder that I'm listening to. Where's the progressive vibrato cello patch? I've not found that one yet


Its a patch each of the instruments has, you'll find it in the main patches for each instrument and of course in the individual folder. 
Christian mentioned it as his go to patch, in his video about sole + scs.


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## ism (May 26, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I'm still minutes into the library so it's just the Cello - legato in the legato folder that I'm listening to. Where's the progressive vibrato cello patch? I've not found that one yet



It's there on it's own if you look for it. But you can also get it via a specific cc21 value. The latest version of my script has an option to invoke progressive vibrato via the sus pedal or key switch (I assign all keys no in the instrument's range to invoke the progressive vibrato). 

The default cc21 behaviour of the performance legato patches is awfully complex - best to look at the manual. I find there's real benefits to playability to unpack it onto different controllers.


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## StillLife (May 26, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Here's a few notes played using the Cello - legato patch. Tree mic, vibrato on full, some dynamics used. That rebow sound harsh to me. As a comparison I put the same midi through the original solo strings cello legato patch. Rebow is in the same position it seems but is a bit less prominent (to the point where I may not have been bothered by it).


It's an instrument I.learned to play. I love it.


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Here's a few notes played using the Cello - legato patch. Tree mic, vibrato on full, some dynamics used. That rebow sound harsh to me. As a comparison I put the same midi through the original solo strings cello legato patch. Rebow is in the same position it seems but is a bit less prominent (to the point where I may not have been bothered by it).


What a fantastic example and similar melody to my piece. This shouldn't be this hard. Hiw can I write a slow melody with this kind of sound in the middle of the note. I'm sure Christian Henson wouldn't be happy with that. Thanks for posting.


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

Thanks all for showing me where the progressive patch is  Here's the same midi put through the long (progressive) cello patch.


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## jbuhler (May 26, 2020)

The cello is my least favorite of the instruments. I still need to do more experimenting with the mics. I also greatly prefer the first desk violin to the virtuoso though the virtuoso is capable of some amazing passage work. In context I rarely think about rebowing with the first desk violin. I also have a pretty reliable way of handling the vibrato which isn’t great in exposed passages (though it still works way better than it has a right to) but works well in the context of a solo emerging from the orchestra.


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

I'm actually happy with the upgrade overall (despite my disappointment with the rebow on the cello legato). With the sale it only cost me £131 to uograde.

I noticed that the flautando patch has no audible rebow (at least none they stands out), the progressive vibrato has an acceptable/workable amount and the con sord has a similar amount to the legato and longs. I'm sure I can work with it and I knew before getting into this that I'd have to work with the library.

I did of course try the 100% close, 45% tree mix and layered it with SStS cello legato and it's a nice fit even with no extra reverb added.

@ism, is your script freely available? Was it Logic only though? Your demos of it sounded really nice.


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Thanks all for showing me where the progressive patch is  Here's the same midi put through the long (progressive) cello patch.


As soon as I get off work tonight I will try that patch.


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## jbuhler (May 26, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I did of course try the 100% close, 45% tree mix and layered it with SStS cello legato and it's a nice fit even with no extra reverb added.


These libraries work very well as leaders for SCS and SSS too—it's one of my main uses for the solo strings—and the midi translates with minimal tweaking. I haven't tried them with SStS.


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## ism (May 26, 2020)

Mornats said:


> @ism, is your script freely available? Was it Logic only though? Your demos of it sounded really nice.



Yep I'll send it to you. I keep tweaking it though, so the warning is that it's very much beta and likely to change. Though I would never use SsS without it.


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## Mornats (May 26, 2020)

ism said:


> Yep I'll send it to you. I keep tweaking it though, so the warning is that it's very much beta and likely to change. Though I would never use SsS without it.


Amazing, thank you


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## Rossy (May 26, 2020)

What folder is the patch under as I cant find it.


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## Rossy (May 28, 2020)

So I got a reply from spitfire about the rebow issue I was having







*Jack* (Spitfire Audio)
May 28, 2020, 4:43:41 PM GMT+1
Ross,

Thanks for getting in touch.

This is not possible, the bowing is embedded in the samples and there is not a way to modify it.

One option to add a bow change, is to place a V in the dynamics automation. This will trigger a sample change and thus a bow change.

Thanks
Jack

So i was wondering if anyone knew how to do this as I have absolutely no idea what he means. I use reaper as my daw 
Thanks


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## ism (May 28, 2020)

Rossy said:


> So I got a reply from spitfire about the rebow issue I was having
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He means just before the bow change, dip the dynamics (via cc1) down into a lower dynamic layer, even briefly.


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## Rossy (May 28, 2020)

ism said:


> He means just before the bow change, dip the dynamics (via cc1) down into a lower dynamic layer, even briefly.


Thanks


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## Mornats (May 28, 2020)

Rossy said:


> Thanks


Let me know if you have trouble with that. I'm on Reaper and can try and create a sample midi file for you.


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## Rossy (May 29, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Let me know if you have trouble with that. I'm on Reaper and can try and create a sample midi file for you.


That would be fantastic, thank you.


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## Mornats (May 29, 2020)

Rossy said:


> That would be fantastic, thank you.



Ok, so here's a quick test. I recorded a single note using the cello legato patch. I used the modwheel to add the dynamics (CC01) to it, along with a little CC21 to add in the vibrato (although you can ignore the vibrato part of it if you wish).

You can hear the rebow quite clearly on that first note.

Next, I duplicated that same midi piece and edited the dynamics (CC01 - the modwheel) so that it decreased those dynamics just before the part where the rebow would kick in. You can hear that it now triggers the lower dynamics sample instead of triggering the rebow.

Here's an MP3 of the two notes and a screenshot to show the midi for each. It's not the best sounding note I've gotten out of it but it's just a very quick test to show how dropping the dynamics does indeed skip the rebow. I'm sure it can be made to sound much more musical than this too.


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## ism (May 29, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Ok, so here's a quick test. I recorded a single note using the cello legato patch. I used the modwheel to add the dynamics (CC01) to it, along with a little CC21 to add in the vibrato (although you can ignore the vibrato part of it if you wish).
> 
> You can hear the rebow quite clearly on that first note.
> 
> ...




That's a good demo / proof of concept. But note that your cc21 causes the vibrato to shift twice, and c11 is cause the dynamics to about 4 times within rough the middle third of the note. So you've avoided the rebow, but at the cost of other bumpiness, which isn't quite idiomatic. 

My script should help in a couple of ways (it also rebalances some volumes to give smoother transitions for a particular type of idiomatic arc). But I won't have time to try it out before monday.


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## Mornats (May 29, 2020)

ism said:


> That's a good demo / proof of concept. But note that your cc21 causes the vibrato to shift twice, and c11 is cause the dynamics to about 4 times within rough the middle third of the note. So you've avoided the rebow, but at the cost of other bumpiness, which isn't quite idiomatic.
> 
> My script should help in a couple of ways (it also rebalances some volumes to give smoother transitions for a particular type of idiomatic arc). But I won't have time to try it out before monday.



Yes indeed, there's a lot lost there to avoid the rebow. With more playing around I may be able to make it sound a bit more natural but it would be a lot of messing around to solve the problem. But at the very least it does prove the concept that triggering a new sample via dynamics can skip the rebow sample. The more I play with it, the more I think that it would simply be better if Spitfire removed most of the attack on that rebow.


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## jbuhler (May 29, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Yes indeed, there's a lot lost there to avoid the rebow. With more playing around I may be able to make it sound a bit more natural but it would be a lot of messing around to solve the problem. But at the very least it does prove the concept that triggering a new sample via dynamics can skip the rebow sample. The more I play with it, the more I think that it would simply be better if Spitfire removed most of the attack on that rebow.


Yeah, I see no real technical issue to creating an infinite bow, at least on the regular legato, which just involves finding a loop point before the rebow. They could also rescript it so that a legato note repetition triggers the rebow sample. IIRC the performance legato patch uses the progressive vibrato long samples, so that would be more difficult to loop in this fashion.


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 29, 2020)

Well that's the issue right there. You bought from the dodgy knockoff "Spitfie", when you should have gone with a more established developer like "Spitfire". 🤣


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## ism (May 29, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Yeah, I see no real technical issue to creating an infinite bow, at least on the regular legato, which just involves finding a loop point before the rebow. They could also rescript it so that a legato note repetition triggers the rebow sample. IIRC the performance legato patch uses the progressive vibrato long samples, so that would be more difficult to loop in this fashion.



Yes, it should be entirely doable as an enhancement, and would be very nice to have. (Unless there's some technical complexity that hasn't occurred to me).

As I recall though, the performance patch only used the progressive vibrato samples for the first note of a line. So I'm trying to remember how it handles rebowing (not in my studio at the moment).


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## Rossy (May 29, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Well that's the issue right there. You bought from the dodgy knockoff "Spitfie", when you should have gone with a more established developer like "Spitfire". 🤣


I couldn't stop laughing


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## Rossy (May 29, 2020)

I can't thank everyone enough for trying to help me sort this out. I just don't understand that a company that touts itself as the premier sample library producers can produce a sample with this problem!?
I am still scouring through my classical recordings and can't find one recording that has a slow legato sound with that kind of rebow sound. I've said it before and I'll say it again, these companies need to find a way to allow us to try demos. Maybe 7 days and deactivate. I am not wealthy so I have to save for this library and watched tons of videos on YouTube about this library and I NEVER heard that sound.
I'm so glad you guys are here.
I think this is my last spitfire library I will be purchasing.


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## ism (May 29, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I think this is my last spitfire library I will be purchasing.



That's a great pity. Sorry it didn't work out for you.


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## CT (May 29, 2020)

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, or if it's totally irrelevant to the actual issue, but it's maybe worth noting that the total performance patches use Time Machine to increase the speed of the vibrato as you push the vibrato control to the top. This in turn seems to make the re-bows appear faster as well.


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## Rossy (May 29, 2020)

miket said:


> Sorry if this has already been mentioned, or if it's totally irrelevant to the actual issue, but it's maybe worth noting that the total performance patches use Time Machine to increase the speed of the vibrato as you push the vibrato control to the top. This in turn seems to make the re-bows appear faster as well.


I have tried to lower the vibrato and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I will post my problem this Sunday with the actual composition so people can hear what I think the issue does to the music. I'm not trying to be a diva, I just had this idea in my head on how these lines should sound and thought the spitfire solo strings would help me produce it.


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## CT (May 29, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I have tried to lower the vibrato and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I will post my problem this Sunday with the actual composition so people can hear what I think the issue does to the music. I'm not trying to be a diva, I just had this idea in my head on how these lines should sound and thought the spitfire solo strings would help me produce it.



Fair enough. I don't think you're being a diva at all, but this is one of those frustrating compromises that virtual instruments force us to make. I'm as puzzled as anyone else as to why all developers don't loop solo string samples to exclude the bow changes, making them available on demand via keyswitch or something.


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## jbuhler (May 29, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I have tried to lower the vibrato and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I will post my problem this Sunday with the actual composition so people can hear what I think the issue does to the music. I'm not trying to be a diva, I just had this idea in my head on how these lines should sound and thought the spitfire solo strings would help me produce it.


I agree that there seems to be no good reason SF didn't include an infinite bow as an option. And I did have a situation recently where I ran out of bow at an inopportune moment and it would have been nice to have two more beats before the rebow occurred (and at the tempo and dynamic level would not be difficult for a player to do). That said, it is an instrument that is designed for a certain kind of expression. It has its sweet spots that other solo string libraries don't have. @ism's diagram that shows the impossibly small sweet spot of each of the solo string libraries does a great job of illustrating the stakes: solo strings right now don't really have the luxury of being generalists. And if the rebow seems a bit of an oversight (this limitation does not seem the product of solving some other problem), many of the limitations and peculiarities of the instrument are products of design choices that allowing some things at the cost of limiting others. I'll also say that I don't run into the rebow issue very often, though this is likely because I've learned to compose to the instruments and so tend to gravitate toward other solo strings in situations where rebowing might pose an issue.


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## Mornats (May 29, 2020)

I'm disappointed in the rebow issue too @Rossy. Why such a hard attack on the cello? I don't get it. So I'm now still looking for a solo cello to compliment my Joshua Bell violin. Let's hope Embertone got some time with Yo Yo Ma before lockdown...

This is not to say I won't get value out of them. I spent some time late last night layering them on top of Tundra and boy do they shine in that situation.


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## Marco_D (May 30, 2020)

ism said:


> And don't forget SsS can do crazy stuff like this:




Which articulation are you using for the initial arpeggio?


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## Mornats (May 30, 2020)

Mornats said:


> This is not to say I won't get value out of them. I spent some time late last night layering them on top of Tundra and boy do they shine in that situation.



Speaking of which, they're layered over Tundra with some Orchestral Swarm here:


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## Rossy (May 31, 2020)

As strange as this sounds, I am not a big fan of sharing my work as I do this for my own pleasure. Since everyone has been so helpful and gone out of their way to try to help me, I think its only fair to let you listen to the context that I am having this problem with. I have listened to many of my classical cd's and there are countless examples of longer bowing by cello and violins than my piece so I am comfortable that I am not asking the sample to do something that is done in regular music. You can hear the rebowing on the cello but very prominently on the violin.

I can't thank everyone enough for sharing their opinions and advice to help me achieve what is floating around in my head and heart, Spitfire however did not put in much of a effort in.

All input on bowing fixing is welcome, by the way, this piece is nowhere finished so I apologize for it messy condition.


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## ism (May 31, 2020)

Rossy said:


> As strange as this sounds, I am not a big fan of sharing my work as I do this for my own pleasure. Since everyone has been so helpful and gone out of their way to try to help me, I think its only fair to let you listen to the context that I am having this problem with. I have listened to many of my classical cd's and there are countless examples of longer bowing by cello and violins than my piece so I am comfortable that I am not asking the sample to do something that is done in regular music. You can hear the rebowing on the cello but very prominently on the violin.
> 
> I can't thank everyone enough for sharing their opinions and advice to help me achieve what is floating around in my head and heart, Spitfire however did not put in much of a effort in.
> 
> All input on bowing fixing is welcome, by the way, this piece is nowhere finished so I apologize for it messy condition.



My suggestion is to craft the arcs in the vibrato. I think this might solve both your issue with the rebow and soften the motto vibrato at the same time.

its quite a lovely composition by the way. I can certainly hear what you’re going for.


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## Rossy (May 31, 2020)

ism said:


> My suggestion is to craft the arcs in the vibrato. I think this might solve both your issue with the rebow and soften the motto vibrato at the same time.
> 
> its quite a lovely composition by the way. I can certainly hear what you’re going for.


That's very kind, I will give it a try.


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## jbuhler (May 31, 2020)

I agree with @ism, both that it is a lovely composition and that you might try working the vibrato a bit. In particular dip CC21 below 50 at the start of the low notes and then bring it up so it crosses the vibrato-on mark (which I recall being about 55) a beat or two into the long notes (basically when if it was being played with progressive vibrato, the vibrato would intensify to be noticed). Unless this is the performance legato patch, in which case, I might also try it with the ordinary legato patch and see if you get better results. I'll also say that the only rebow I thought terribly problematic was the first one in the cello. The others might not be what you want, but I didn't find them disruptive of the musicality of the passage.

One final suggestion. You might try reducing the volume of the pizz just a bit. They seem a bit too forward to me.


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## Sears Poncho (May 31, 2020)

Rossy said:


> All input on bowing fixing is welcome, by the way, this piece is nowhere finished so I apologize for it messy condition.


It's very nice! Sounds lovely. The cello is a bit "late" or behind at times, due to latency. You can probably nudge the whole track a bit to the left. For me, that sticks out more than the bowing. The fiddle too but it's not as noticable.


ism said:


> My suggestion is to craft the arcs in the vibrato


This is good. Also, lower the volume a bit. Long notes naturally taper off, ride the mod wheel and take the volume down a bit like a bow would.

Lastly- don't worry about it that much. We're of course warned in advance and thinking "I gotta listen for the bow change". If it bothers you a lot put something there- a turn, a trill, a lil ornament. Nice job!


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## Rossy (May 31, 2020)

Thanks everyone, as I mentioned, this is by no means a finished product but I will consider all comments. The violin rebow to me ruins the voice I am trying to achieve but the vibrato is a good call so I will fix it. I am trying to move away from the " on beat" melody with the celly and that's why it sounds a little behind, it's intentional. 

I'm going to look at other solo libraries as I am not very happy with the spitfire solo strings I bought.

Thanks again for the input.


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## P3TAAL (Jun 1, 2020)

Rossy said:


> As strange as this sounds, I am not a big fan of sharing my work as I do this for my own pleasure. Since everyone has been so helpful and gone out of their way to try to help me, I think its only fair to let you listen to the context that I am having this problem with. I have listened to many of my classical cd's and there are countless examples of longer bowing by cello and violins than my piece so I am comfortable that I am not asking the sample to do something that is done in regular music. You can hear the rebowing on the cello but very prominently on the violin.
> 
> I can't thank everyone enough for sharing their opinions and advice to help me achieve what is floating around in my head and heart, Spitfire however did not put in much of a effort in.
> 
> All input on bowing fixing is welcome, by the way, this piece is nowhere finished so I apologize for it messy condition.



Really nice piece of music Rossy. Definitely worth sharing  

It is very strange why they would have a re-bow so early in the Bow's travel. I don't quite understand why they chose to do this. 

By the way they have just started the first of hopefully many Q&A sessions on YouTube called the 'Probe'. 
I watched the first one yesterday which was very interesting with some great insights into the people behind the company. They do seem like genuinely good people.

Might be a good place to ask the question about this issue.

All the best


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## Rossy (Jun 1, 2020)

P3TAAL said:


> Really nice piece of music Rossy. Definitely worth sharing
> 
> It is very strange why they would have a re-bow so early in the Bow's travel. I don't quite understand why they chose to do this.
> 
> ...


Thank you, i did contact them a couple of times, here is their response 

*Jack* (Spitfire Audio)

May 28, 2020, 4:43:41 PM GMT+1

Ross,

Thanks for getting in touch.

This is not possible, the bowing is embedded in the samples and there is not a way to modify it.

One option to add a bow change, is to place a V in the dynamics automation. This will trigger a sample change and thus a bow change.

Thanks
Jack

Not what I expected for a $400 piece of software. I'll keep searching other companies. I appreciate the feedback.


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## ism (Jun 1, 2020)

Rossy said:


> As strange as this sounds, I am not a big fan of sharing my work as I do this for my own pleasure. Since everyone has been so helpful and gone out of their way to try to help me, I think its only fair to let you listen to the context that I am having this problem with. I have listened to many of my classical cd's and there are countless examples of longer bowing by cello and violins than my piece so I am comfortable that I am not asking the sample to do something that is done in regular music. You can hear the rebowing on the cello but very prominently on the violin.
> 
> I can't thank everyone enough for sharing their opinions and advice to help me achieve what is floating around in my head and heart, Spitfire however did not put in much of a effort in.
> 
> All input on bowing fixing is welcome, by the way, this piece is nowhere finished so I apologize for it messy conditi



if you’de like to send me the midi (or logic) file I can have a look at how the arcs might be massaged a bit.

there’s no question the crafting the arcs is the sin quo non of this library, and vibrato the hardest part.


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## Rossy (Jun 1, 2020)

ism said:


> if you’de like to send me the midi (or logic) file I can have a look at how the arcs might be massaged a bit.
> 
> there’s no question the crafting the arcs is the sin quo non of this library, and vibrato the hardest part.


I appreciate your offer but I would like to try to overcome this myself. How would I "craft the arcs"


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## Mornats (Jun 1, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I appreciate your offer but I would like to try to overcome this myself. How would I "craft the arcs"



I've tried to do a little example that might help with this, or at least give more knowledgeable people a reference to help you.

I used the Cello long patch for this and recorded a G with the modwheel set to around halfway. I copied this three times so there are four notes in total.

(The mp3 is at the end of this post.)

Modwheel controls the dynamics.

1st note: Modwheel halfway. No modwheel movement. Vibrato on full.





2nd note: Modwheel on a steady arc from zero to halfway then back to zero. Vibrato on full.





Note 3: Modwheel on a steady arc from zero to halfway with vibrato on a steady arc from zero to halfway - following the same arc as the modwheel (well, almost).





Note 4: Modwheel on a steady arc from zero to halfway with vibrato on an arc from zero to full then quickly back to zero, this time it's slightly behind the modwheel dynamics arc.


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## Rossy (Jun 1, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I've tried to do a little example that might help with this, or at least give more knowledgeable people a reference to help you.
> 
> I used the Cello long patch for this and recorded a G with the modwheel set to around halfway. I copied this three times so there are four notes in total.
> 
> ...


Thats very helpfull, thanks


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## Banquet (Jun 2, 2020)

I have this lib and would love to hear more from ism re. crafting the arcs. I love the sound of SSS but have encountered the rebowing issue occasionally. (Usually they are not so exposed so I get away with it).
It’s not just Spitfire, I was surprised how loud the rebowing in Sospiro strings are as well.


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## Zero&One (Jun 2, 2020)

Rossy said:


> Not what I expected for a $400 piece of software. I'll keep searching other companies.



Didn’t you request a refund? What happened there?

I've had no issues with the library after I deleted it.


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## Rossy (Jun 2, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> Didn’t you request a refund? What happened there?
> 
> I've had no issues with the library after I deleted it.


I did and they said absolutely no refunds, then offered me a 15% discount off my next purchase. I have blocked any further emails from them. 

I know people may get tired of me saying this but, these companies need to offer demos of these products, I certainly wouldn't buy a car after watching a bunch of people driving it on YouTube, I would test drive it myself. Some dealerships even offer up to 30 days to try a car out before you commit? 

I am certainly not in a position to drop $1000s of dollars looking for a library that suits my needs when all they have to do is offer 7, 14 of 30 day trial with no save if that makes them feel better. These products are way too expensive to "try out" and I would be more than willing to purchase them after a trial.

I am now looking for a solo strings library and will do my due diligence this time but spitfire will neve get another penny from me again. Bitter, yes.


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## Rossy (Jun 2, 2020)

"I've had no issues with the library after I deleted it"

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## ism (Jun 2, 2020)

Rossy said:


> I am now looking for a solo strings library and will do my due diligence this time but spitfire will neve get another penny from me again. Bitter, yes.



I had a the same kind of issue when I bought the Embertone Intimate solo strings. The cello and the violin, it turns out, only have a single dynamic layer. But for the way I like to use solo strings, this just doesn't work. I find simulated dynamics has an uncanny quality that I just can't stand. I had to give up on using them the way I had thought I would, and learned to use the for what they are instead.

But if I had boycotted Embertone, I would never have bought the Joshua Bell violin. Which is a joy.




Rossy said:


> I appreciate your offer but I would like to try to overcome this myself. How would I "craft the arcs"



Crafting the arcs is about finding an idiomatic flow to the phrasing, and for sure this is easily the most difficult part of this library. Deeply un-plonkable. 

To be sure, SsS has a sweet spot for a particular type of phrasing, it's defiantly not a generalist in the way that Chris Hein would be (at the expense of modelling techniques that greatly impact the sound).

I'd need to experiment a bit, but I think that there might be a way to craft the phrasing of your composition to get it closer to one of the library's sweet spots.

I can offer to experiment to see what kind of idiomatic phrasing can be crafted - but I'd need at least to replicate a phrase from your composition. Which I can do if you don't mind me reverse engineering it like this.


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## harmaes (Jun 2, 2020)

ism said:


> I can offer to experiment to see what kind of idiomatic phrasing can be crafted - but I'd need at least to replicate a phrase from your composition. Which I can do if you don't mind me reverse engineering it like this.



It’s a generous offer from @ism to help you improve the phrasing. Because you don’t have the option to return the library it could be a good idea to take his offer and see what can be improved? Nothing to loose right?

I’ve used this library in situations that I wouldn’t expect it to work but it did. The spiccato and first chairs are great and I like combining the library with altSS and the alder cello and violin. It’s always good to try or re-evaluate a library in different contexts. It might be more useable then you think. 

Here are 2 examples of ostinatos using solo strings and altSS:






The first one also uses the first desk violin around 2:42


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## Mornats (Jun 2, 2020)

Love those tracks Harry.


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## StillLife (Jun 2, 2020)

I can understand your frustration, Rossy, I went through the same with a couple of libraries. My advice: when the dust of anger and frustration settles down, keep remembering you have this one in your arsenal, in particular when you don't have tons to spend on libraries. It might still come in handy at unexpected times, in unexpected ways.


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## Mornats (Jun 2, 2020)

StillLife said:


> I can understand your frustration, Rossy, I went through the same with a couple of libraries. My advice: when the dust of anger and frustration settles down, keep remembering you have this one in your arsenal, in particular when you don't have tons to spend on libraries. It might still come in handy at unexpected times, in unexpected ways.



Indeed, although I share Rossy's disappointment with the rebows I'm still finding uses for the solo strings. Harry's tracks above show them in a very good light and there was another track somewhere on this forum that really sold me on them. They have their good points too.


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## StillLife (Jun 2, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Indeed, although I share Rossy's disappointment with the rebows I'm still finding uses for the solo strings. Harry's tracks above show them in a very good light and there was another track somewhere on this forum that really sold me on them. They have their good points too.


I love them and do not have many issues with the rebow, if it happens I take it as if I have an ideosyncratic player in the band. But we all want something different from our libraries, and I can understand disappointment in general, when you've just paid a considerable amount of money for something that turns out not to be what you expected. 
For me, a demo by Alex Niedt sold them to me. Its on youtube.


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## Mornats (Jun 2, 2020)

This one?


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## StillLife (Jun 2, 2020)

Mornats said:


> This one?



Yep. Brilliant. I hope Alex will show us the midi one day. Could be very educational.


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## BlackDorito (Jun 5, 2020)

Hi @ism, is your script still available? Is it installed as a Kontakt script? Just picked up the SsS library and want to give it a try. Thx.


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## Mornats (Jun 6, 2020)

So, I've had a chance to play to the strengths of the library (or more accurately, I did one of my quirky things in it). I like it this library. A lot.

I went with ism's 100% close, 45% tree mic mix but I added in around 75% of the ambient mic which gives a nice luscious reverby sound to add to the detail.


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## Fry777 (Jun 6, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I went with ism's 100% close, 45% tree mic mix but I added in around 75% of the ambient mic which gives a nice luscious reverby sound to add to the detail.




Would you have any advice to handle the CCs similarly to your track?


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## Mornats (Jun 6, 2020)

Fry777 said:


> Would you have any advice to handle the CCs similarly to your track?


I learnt everything from ism and others on here but hopefully this helps.

I usually record strings in three passes.

The first pass is to record the tune and an initial stab at the dynamics (CC1) as these form part of the tune. Vibrato is left as default, usually on full.

The second pass is to tweak or fine tune the dynamics. I try and swell 50 - 80% into the note. Getting it right really takes practice and listening and I still have a way to go.

The third pass is to add in vibrato. The advice I read from ism was to start at zero as players don't start with vibrato, it develops. Then aim for a beat or two after the peak of the swell. That's what I did in this piece.

I don't touch expression like the Spitfire crew do as I find it makes it sound like an on/off switch when I do it.

That's it and it's just stuff I picked up on here.


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## jbuhler (Jun 6, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I don't touch expression like the Spitfire crew do as I find it makes it sound like an on/off switch when I do it.


Try adding expression to shape the overall phrase, mimicking the basic shape of CC1 but with less resolution.


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## Mornats (Jun 6, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Try adding expression to shape the overall phrase, mimicking the basic shape of CC1 but with less resolution.



Would you typically keep it near the top end of the scale and move it down and up from there? Or does it just depend on the way you want to phrase it? I may have another bash at that last track I did.

Expression control should be easy as I've got an expression pedal. I've also got a Maschine Jam with the expression strips mapped to CC1, CC11 (if that's expression), CC21 for vibrato and then whichever the variation slider in Orchestral Swarm is mapped to. So I could play those live when recording if I need to but it's a lot to move around at once hence my multi-pass approach. Speaking of it, I found out recently from Guy Mitchelmore that the step sequencer buttons happen to line up with Spitfire keyswitches so I'm loving that controller right now.


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## jbuhler (Jun 6, 2020)

If CC1 is in a sense rendering the bowing, then you might take the expression to be rendering the phrasing. (Though in some contexts, I actually end up reversing the two functions and CC1 is more broad and CC11 more detailed.) But, say, the shape of CC1 for a short phrase is up a lot, down some, up again and down a lot. Then maybe the CC11 is just doing a big up-down arc over the phrase. It depends on context, of course, but I'd say I typically move expression between about 1/3 and fully open, whereas with CC1 I use more of the full range, but rarely take it all the way to 127. For the SF Solo Strings, I also attend to the vibrato, and usually dip in and out of vibrato for legato long notes in a way that tries to mimic progressive vibrato.


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## Mornats (Jun 6, 2020)

Nice, that's a good explanation of how to use expression. I can see how I'd use that now thanks!


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## ism (Jun 6, 2020)

This is very much an experiment in all the hassles in making youtube videos. But it's very rough first pass proof of concept (still have some technical issues, the glitching is the screen capture, not the library). But let me know if this is helpful, and maybe it would be worth doing properly.


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## ism (Jun 6, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I've tried to do a little example that might help with this, or at least give more knowledgeable people a reference to help you.
> 
> I used the Cello long patch for this and recorded a G with the modwheel set to around halfway. I copied this three times so there are four notes in total.
> 
> ...



I guess the suggestion I'd make here is that you might start with a simpler vibrato shape - just a simple step. Turn it on when you're ready for the progressive vibrato to kick in - it's not as smooth as the baked in progressive, so it has more of a rhythmic signature, so it's good to be in control over where it kicks in. But also, think about where the vibrato starts in in relation to the dynamics. You can get a smoother, more progressive vibrato by starting the vibrato when the dynamics are at a lot level, where the vibrato is less molto. 

And in your dynamics, I've found that SsS isn't as well suited to simple "swell" shapes as ensemble strings. You can do lot lot lovely, swelling dynamics, but if you can, think about adding a little bit of a "U" shape at the beginning of the note can give it a bit of attack before settling onto the p layer, and then swelling upwards of it from there. 

No hard and fast rules of course. But I've found that with SsS you need to do a lot more of the crafting of the arcs yourself than with even something like SStS, which has a certain sense of attack, and even a "swell" in the vibrato baked.


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## Mornats (Jun 7, 2020)

So rather than create an arc with the vibrato we should simply step it up into the next level of vibrato and the samples will take it from there? I was watching the vibrato slider in the Kontakt window in your video and that seems to be what the script was doing too. Looks like a really nice script.


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## yiph2 (Jun 7, 2020)

Mornats said:


> Nice, that's a good explanation of how to use expression. I can see how I'd use that now thanks!


If you look at some of Christian's videos, you can see he records modulation and expression at the same time, but notice how on the expression, although it is the same shape, the faders on the expression are a bit higher than modulation


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## ism (Jun 7, 2020)

Mornats said:


> So rather than create an arc with the vibrato we should simply step it up into the next level of vibrato and the samples will take it from there? I was watching the vibrato slider in the Kontakt window in your video and that seems to be what the script was doing too. Looks like a really nice script.





If you're using one of the performance patches, then the functionality packed onto cc21 is very complex, and you arc with give you a lot of crazy effects. 


If you look at the cc1 curves in the video, the basic shape of most of the arcs is a "U"-shape. And the key point is that I use the mod wheel to craft the U-shape such that it is at inflection - the bottom of the "U" - happens where I want the vibrato to kick in. 


The caveat here is that I always turn off the time machine effect of intensify vibrato. It's nice for occasional intensification effects, but I really don't have the resources to use it very often. And more to the point, the key thing in figuring out he expressiveness of this library lies is your basic crafting of dynamics and progressive vibrato. The time machine vibrato intensification is something that can be added later, rather than as a fundamental part of capturing the performances. 


Well send you the script shorty ... one more tweak 

@BlackDorito - it's a Logic script, but if that help, happy to send it to yourself also.


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## Theodor Andrews (Jun 7, 2020)

Sorry to sound a bit harsh here...but in my opinion the bow changes in spitfire solo strings are a big fail. It's useless, completely useless for my writing. The sound is nice though (although not very good, there are better solo strings out there). I'm a huge fan of spitfire audio but this is really a mess.


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## ism (Jun 7, 2020)

Theodor Andrews said:


> Sorry to sound a bit harsh here...but in my opinion the bow changes in spitfire solo strings are a big fail. It's useless, completely useless for my writing. The sound is nice though (although not very good, there are better solo strings out there). I'm a huge fan of spitfire audio but this is really a mess.




Not harsh. Just that your writing doesn't fall into the particular sweet spot of this library. Not all of my writing does either. The title of my above diagram refers to the most "psychologyically healthy" way to approach string libraries. Which is to realize that there is no single library on which all your string writing dreams are going to come true.


For a certain type of writing, the SF rebowings are at worst a minor annoyance, and at best kind of a pleasant texture. For other type of wiring, I would just reach for Joshua Bell and not even attempt to use SF. For for other types of writing the JB's lack of dynamics makes me want to slam my head in a door and so I would always reach for SF.


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## jbuhler (Jun 7, 2020)

Theodor Andrews said:


> Sorry to sound a bit harsh here...but in my opinion the bow changes in spitfire solo strings are a big fail. It's useless, completely useless for my writing. The sound is nice though (although not very good, there are better solo strings out there). I'm a huge fan of spitfire audio but this is really a mess.


And they suit my writing very well. I have a lot of solo strings, and I use the SF ones the most. For me they fit inside the way I write for orchestra really well. The bow changes are rarely an issue, though I don’t understand why SF didn’t make a version of each long with an infinite bow. Except maybe for the progressive vibrato, it shouldn’t be hard to program a different loop point... But I don’t find it a mess at all. Just occasionally inconvenient.


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## Mornats (Jun 7, 2020)

ism said:


> Well send you the script shorty ... one more tweak
> 
> @BlackDorito - it's a Logic script, but if that help, happy to send it to yourself also.


If it's a Logic script it's worth noting that I'm on Windows and Reaper


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## BlackDorito (Jun 7, 2020)

I'm Windows/Reaper as well .. but if the scripting is easy to read, and if essentially reads MIDI commands and writes out other MIDI commands, I could likely just code it into my own little Windows MIDI app without much difficulty. Thx,


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## Rossy (Jun 7, 2020)

ism said:


> I had a the same kind of issue when I bought the Embertone Intimate solo strings. The cello and the violin, it turns out, only have a single dynamic layer. But for the way I like to use solo strings, this just doesn't work. I find simulated dynamics has an uncanny quality that I just can't stand. I had to give up on using them the way I had thought I would, and learned to use the for what they are instead.
> 
> But if I had boycotted Embertone, I would never have bought the Joshua Bell violin. Which is a joy.
> 
> ...


Absolutley, I can send you the stem if you need it


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