# The new MOTU AVB system



## spiralbill (Aug 19, 2014)

You might've seen my other post asking about how to sync Protools with cubase here. I'm sort of finding a solution to make that work in my budget and stumbled across these new 4 devices by MOTU: 1248, 8M, 16A, and AVB switch.

http://www.motu.com/products/avb/1248
http://www.motu.com/products/avb/8m
http://www.motu.com/products/avb/16a
http://www.motu.com/products/avb/avb-switch

I don't know how many of you notice that MOTU just released this new product line for only a month or two. The audio interface part doesn't really get me excited that much considering it's just like an 828mk3. But what got my attention was this new "AVB"(audio video bridging) that, I think, is designed specifically for audio via LAN (you can see the ethernet port in the back). You can connect 2 interfaces together or use their AVB switches to add even more. And here's the thing the number of audio channels you could stream is 512! (I have no idea how to do it though)

According to the website, it says that this thing also transmit its own network-wide time base for better-than-sample-accurate phase lock across all connected devices. I don't quite understand this. Is it gonna be something that we can use to sync up 2 DAWs other than MTC?

Thoughts? Opinions? is this finally an affordable alternative for multiple computers setup other than MADI? I'm curious what do you guys think?


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## jamwerks (Aug 19, 2014)

Think I read here someone saying that these new interfaces would be a big plus for people in your situation...


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## charlieclouser (Aug 19, 2014)

As a long time MOTU user, the AVB series is very interesting to me.

Yes, you can use AVB to link two computers "ass-to-ass" - but both computers need to have at least one AVB interface on them, so it's not an "interface-free" situation like Dante Via is (will be), but it is potentially cheaper than RME MADI on one machine and Avid MADI on another. I believe you can get 128 audio streams going between two AVB nodes at 44/48 sample rate, and half that at higher rates.

With the interfaces costing $1,500 each that's a bit cheaper than a MADI setup - but there may be issues on the ProTools side since I believe PT is limited to 32 i/o when using non-Avid interfaces. With an HD Native and MADI interface you can get 64 i/o via PCIe or Thunderbolt Native solutions.

For streaming audio between two non-Avid DAWs, you should be able to get the full 128 back and forth for $1,500 per computer, and it can be expanded to X computers at the same price - but I can't think of a situation like this where you'd use AVB instead of VEP, except for multiple room setups where you might have one live room and want multiple control rooms to access the mic preamps or whatever. In that case, you'd put mic amps and AVB boxes in the live room, then AVB interfaces in the control rooms, and then multiple control rooms could access the AVB boxes in the live room. Potentially very cool, but similar to what Dante and Focusrite RedNet are doing, although probably cheaper than Dante / RedNet. 

I've been trying to picture what other scenarios an AVB network would be useful, but VEP seems to be a better choice for almost every situation - unless maybe you're running Logic on one machine and Ableton on another and want many channels streaming between them? Maybe some guys who run slaves but don't want to use VEP would use MIDI to trigger the slaves and AVB to get the audio back to the DAW? I know one guy who runs Performer on the main machine, has a bunch of slaves whose audio does NOT return to Performer - that audio runs via MADI to a separate ProTools machine for mixing and printing stems. This is a hardware-internsive setup and does not look attractive to me. His next upgrade is to keep that basic setup but use RedNet to move audio around instead of MADI - but he also has two control rooms that want to access a shared live room, so RedNet is ideal for him.

There doesn't seem to be any provision over AVB for anything other than audio - so when they're talking about sample-accurate lock over AVB they aren't suggesting that MTC or MIDI or anything like that is happening, just that the audio travels over CAT5 cables without needing word clock or whatever. You'll still need to transmit MIDI and MTC as you always have, via hardware MIDI interfaces (or network MIDI if you can get it to work).

Some very cool aspects of the AVB control app is that you can easily mix multiple hardware inputs to feed a single "to computer" feed, so you can feed a single audio track in your DAW from a submit of hardware inputs, and you can easily "mirror" outputs, so a single hardware input or output channel from your DAW can feed multiple hardware outputs on the AVB interface - meaning you can send channels from your DAW to multiple destinations by setting that up in the AVB app instead of doing it inside the DAW. Basically, the AVB mixer has all the capabilities of the old CueMix from MOTU, or RME's TotalMix, but with the addition of network audio streams into the mix, and of course, remote control of the mix from any web browser - so you can fiddle with the AVB mixer from your phone or iPad or whatever.

I priced out the hardware needed to get from Logic on one machine to ProTools on another - this is the basic setup I've been using for years and I love it. I can compose and mix in Logic and only use ProTools as a stem recorder, so I can run a low-juice PT rig like HD Native if I want as I don't use plugins on the PT side, only audio record and playback. The best channels-per-dollar ratio is RME MADI on the Logic machine and Avid MADI on the ProTools machine. (All prices listed below are full-pop list prices and are rounded somewhat, and don't include the HD Native box/card or HDX cards you'll need, but are useful for comparison of i/o costs).

With an RME MADIface XT ($2,650 half-rack usb3 MADI interface that can also use Thunderbolt with a $250 TB>ePCIe box and cable) and an Avid MADI ($5,000) you're looking at around $8,000 list price for interfaces - but you've got only two analog i/o on the RME side. Add an Antelope Orion or a pair of FerroFish units plugged into a spare MADI i/o on the RME and now you've got 32 analog and 32 ADAT i/o on the Logic side - for an additional $2,500 or so. So that's around $10k for that setup (not including HDX or HD Native or whatever you're going to do on the Avid side). This is the sweet spot in terms of high i/o count for minimal $$$.

With MOTU AVB on the Logic machine you'll only have ADAT to get out of Logic and over to ProTools, so you'll need to use HD i/o on the Avid side. This could be a little cheaper if you don't need the full 64 channels that MADI provides, so you could go with one AVB and one Avid HDio (16x16 all digital configuration), and scale it up from there. Each HDio is around $2,500 and each AVB is $1,500 so you're looking at $4k for 16 channels, $8k for 32 channels, $12k for 48 channels, and $16k for the full 64 channels. If you go this route you will have some more flexibility of i/o as the Avid HDio had TDIF, AES, etc. and the AVB boxes have lots of analog - so if you go the full whack you'll have 64 analog on the AVB side as opposed to 32 analog on the RME MADI setup mentioned above. You'll also have some flexibility in terms of physical placement of the interfaces, in case you want to put one AVB in each rack of synths or outboard, but you'll then have ADAT cables running all over the place. Still, this route is the cheapest entry point as you can get 16 channels between the rigs for $4k and scale up from there if needed.

For me, having 64 channels from Logic to ProTools is the thing - and I don't need huge amounts of analog i/o on the Logic side, so the RME and Avid MADI setup looks better. It's a little cheaper, there's way less cabling, and it takes up four rack spaces instead of twelve. If I could deal with 32 or fewer channels between the rigs I'd be tempted to try just using an AVB on each rig connected via an AVB hub for a total cost of $3,300 - this would give 16 analog and 16 ADAT on each rig with 32 channels between them. Not bad, if you can get ProTools to see the incoming AVB network audio streams correctly. In theory it should work, as you'd just use the AVB setup app to route incoming network streams to the "to computer" ports in the AVB software, but this is Avid we're talking about, so…..

The network-ability of the AVB stuff looks pretty cool, and it's an open AES standard, so Avid "could" implement some form of it as they have already sort of done in their live Venue series - but you know they won't do this as that would cut into the sales of their audio interfaces.

Dante Via might be a real game changer in terms of how much hardware you need to go "ass-to-ass" between two rigs, but again, we'll see how it works when an Avid rig is one of the rigs on the network - you might be still limited to 32 i/o if you don't have Avid hardware on that side, so you might need HD Native / HDX cards and at least one Avid interface to access high i/o counts. Dante Via won't ship for a while yet, so the jury is still out….


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## spiralbill (Aug 19, 2014)

charlieclouser @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> With MOTU AVB on the Logic machine you'll only have ADAT to get out of Logic and over to ProTools, so you'll need to use HD i/o on the Avid side. This could be a little cheaper if you don't need the full 64 channels that MADI provides, so you could go with one AVB and one Avid HDio (16x16 all digital configuration), and scale it up from there. Each HDio is around $2,500 and each AVB is $1,500 so you're looking at $4k for 16 channels, $8k for 32 channels, $12k for 48 channels, and $16k for the full 64 channels. If you go this route you will have some more flexibility of i/o as the Avid HDio had TDIF, AES, etc. and the AVB boxes have lots of analog - so if you go the full whack you'll have 64 analog on the AVB side as opposed to 32 analog on the RME MADI setup mentioned above. You'll also have some flexibility in terms of physical placement of the interfaces, in case you want to put one AVB in each rack of synths or outboard, but you'll then have ADAT cables running all over the place. Still, this route is the cheapest entry point as you can get 16 channels between the rigs for $4k and scale up from there if needed.



First of all, thanks for your very good insight! I really appreciate you giving me a very detailed reply! Currently, I'm leaning towards the AVB side because I don't really need 64 channels. Honestly 16 channels (via 2 ADATs) are enough for me. I have a few questions though.

1. Is there a reason that you have to use the HDio instead of just getting another AVB? For instance, getting MOTU 1248 (18 digital outs via 2 ADATs and SPDIF) on the master computer (Cubase/Logic) and get a MOTU 16A (16 digital ins via 2 ADATs) on the Protools computer. Other than the converter's quality, do you lost anything from this setup comparing to HDio? This way the cost will come down to only 3000$ 

2. You mentioned the limitation of protools being 32 channels, so does that mean that if I connect 2 AVB units together via LAN (ass to ass as you said), I will be able to use that maximum 32? Or do i actually have to add another 2 AVB units to have 4 ADATs running?

3. Let's say that we get 32 channels using LAN cable connecting ass to ass, how about using one of the AVB interface (1248 or 16A) on one end and using the AVB switch on the other end? Or does the AVB switch just only acts like a router and can't do anything without the interfaces?

Thanks again Charlie! o-[][]-o


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 19, 2014)

If you don't already have PT HD then when you get it, just get it with the madi interface and then you'd only need an RME madi interface. This would come out cheaper than the Motu.
If you already have PT HD but no PT madi interface then it will be cheaper to get the Motu.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 19, 2014)

spiralbill @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> charlieclouser @ Tue Aug 19 said:
> 
> 
> > With MOTU AVB on the Logic machine you'll only have ADAT to get out of Logic and over to ProTools, so you'll need to use HD i/o on the Avid side. This could be a little cheaper if you don't need the full 64 channels that MADI provides, so you could go with one AVB and one Avid HDio (16x16 all digital configuration), and scale it up from there. Each HDio is around $2,500 and each AVB is $1,500 so you're looking at $4k for 16 channels, $8k for 32 channels, $12k for 48 channels, and $16k for the full 64 channels. If you go this route you will have some more flexibility of i/o as the Avid HDio had TDIF, AES, etc. and the AVB boxes have lots of analog - so if you go the full whack you'll have 64 analog on the AVB side as opposed to 32 analog on the RME MADI setup mentioned above. You'll also have some flexibility in terms of physical placement of the interfaces, in case you want to put one AVB in each rack of synths or outboard, but you'll then have ADAT cables running all over the place. Still, this route is the cheapest entry point as you can get 16 channels between the rigs for $4k and scale up from there if needed.
> ...



2. Non HD PT can only have 32 i/o so it doesn't matter how many interfaces you put on it. You should be able to get 32 with the AVB. In HD you can have up to 192 but I'm not sure if there's a limit per HDX card. 

3. I believe you need 2 interfaces. You can't connect it to a NIC and access the channels.


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## charlieclouser (Aug 19, 2014)

1 - You only need the HD i/o on the PT side if you're going PTHD and need more than 32 i/o. For my needs, non-HD ProTools would not do the trick, so by default I've got to go for either HD-Native or HDX, so I'll have to use either HDi/o units or Avid MADI. My current rig gives me 24 channels between the two machines, but I'd like to raise that number, and raising it to only 32 seems like too small an increase for me to bother. Going all the way to 64 with MADI might be overkill for me, but not by much. In any case, I need the features of the HD software, and I'd rather have the PT software talking to Avid hardware for the smoothest setup - so HD it is.

2 - PT non-HD is limited to 32 i/o only. But if you're using AVB network to get from one rig to another than you don't need multiple AVB interfaces on the PT machine - you only need one so you can light up the AVB network between the two rigs. Put as many on the Logic side as you need for synths and outboard.

3 - Yes, the AVB switch only acts as a router; you still need to have an AVB interface on both machines, with the router in between. So far, there is no way to just ethernet between the two rigs using the ethernet jacks that are on the computer itself. However, it appears that this IS possible with Dante Via, as far as I can tell from their brief video.

It appears that with Dante Via you don't need ANY interfaces on ANY machine in order to get audio flowing in high channel counts right from the ethernet jacks on the back of the computer - but I may be gravely mistaken on this point as I've only seen a short video describing the Via system. It appears that you could have whatever interfaces you want on one machine, and no interfaces on a second machine, and flow audio between the two machines with no restrictions on whether that audio is coming from the software on either machine, or directly accessing the interface on machine B from a DAW running on machine A.

https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-via


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 19, 2014)

You're correct about Dante Via not needing any hardware. I'd hold off making any big purchases for this until Via comes out.


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## spiralbill (Aug 19, 2014)

It seems like Dante via is really gonna be a game changer if it does what we're expecting. I thought that audio via ethernet has been a thing as it seems just so easy with VEP that I'm currently enjoying so much. Apparently, it's not that easy after all. 

Charlie, I now see your point of getting the HD. Thanks again for a very good insight (I love your interview with pensado's place a while back btw). Thanks Gerhard as well for making it clear about this! Appreciate it!


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## charlieclouser (Aug 20, 2014)

I just had an interesting conversation with MOTU - it seems that Apple already implements AVB right from the built-in ethernet jacks on recent computers, although in a limited fashion. MOTU are working feverishly with Apple to get full implementation to market asap, possibly with Yosemite and possibly to beat Dante Via to market. So, what I said above about needing AVB interfaces on every machine would be a lie, if Apple and MOTU can get Apple's AVB implementation up to speed.

This would mean that Apple's OS would basically do what Dante Via does, free of charge, with no additional software or drivers to install. Any number of computers could access each other, or a shared pool of AVB audio interfaces, freely across an ethernet network, with a minimum of 128 channels at each node. The only requirement is that the ethernet switches be AVB compatible, which I'm not entirely clear on, but I heard the phrase "level one" mentioned. The MOTU AVB Switch does this, as do many other network switches… but probably not the $99 one I've had sitting in my rack for six years.

So…. yeah. That's heavy. MOTU is really hitting this AVB thing hard, and it's all open-spec, not proprietary at all. I'll be holding off on Dante Via until we see how AVB shakes out in terms of Yosemite. With dual ethernet ports on the new Mac Pro you can maybe use one for normal network and one for the audio network? Could be very cool. If only Avid would light up AVB at the OS level then we're talking about having one audio interface connected to speakers and hardware, with multiple computers connected via ethernet - no more "ass-to-ass" setups where you've got 8x ADAT cables linking a Logic machine to a ProTools machine. This saves a LOT of money and rack space.

Of course, if you've got Windows machines in the mix, perhaps Dante Via will be your only choice… but for an all-Mac shop the AVB stuff might kick some serious butt.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Aug 20, 2014)

If apple implements the AVB does this mean that you don't need a Motu AVB interface? Could you just have 2 macs and then a regular interface using an aggregate driver with the AVB?


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## spiralbill (Aug 20, 2014)

Gerhard Westphalen @ Wed Aug 20 said:


> If apple implements the AVB does this mean that you don't need a Motu AVB interface? Could you just have 2 macs and then a regular interface using an aggregate driver with the AVB?



I think that's what Charlie is basically saying.
If that does happen and it's stable and reliable enough, as Charlie already said, it will save a ton of cost and everybody probably have to re-design all their setup again. Even if this AVB technology will ONLY come out with the new(unreleased) macs, it will still be worth it to buy one of these AVB interfaces(to use with older macs) and a new mac. It would still be a lot cheaper than a 2 x MADI (128 channels) setup.

It's really interesting to see. If, like charlie said, Dante via comes out on December and Apple is rushing to make this happen as soon as possible, that means that in this period of 3 months something is really gonna happen!

Thanks for the info Charlie!


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## dadek (Aug 20, 2014)

Anybody compared this against Wave's Digigrid? I'm looking at it to get all three of my macs connected to a shared interface via ethernet plus the onboard Waves DSP...


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## charlieclouser (Aug 20, 2014)

Yeah, the info I got from MOTU was "not official", but what I gathered was that at least Apple knows about how important "networked audio" is and is on the case, with MOTU being the first pro audio company to have product in the marketplace that supports the AVB standard. At the upcoming AES trade show the BIG topic everyone's talking about and having seminars on is "networked audio" - so it's clearly coming, and coming fast.

MOTU clearly has some great brainpower in their hardware and software engineering teams, and they are definitely taking this AVB stuff VERY seriously - they want very much to be the industry leader in the studio implementation of this stuff. Kudos to them for being first out of the gate - I can go down to Guitar Center and buy an AVB interface today. Amazing.

MOTU did suggest that ideally, if Apple fully implements AVB via built-in ethernet, then nobody would complain about the AVB interfaces having only have a single Thunderbolt port because serious users would all be accessing the interface via CAT5 right from the back of the computer via an AVB switch, and only the folks with smaller setups would actually use the USB or TB connections. Having the TB port is a great safeguard in case ethernet connections are more prone to latency or whatever - we know the TB setup is as fast as it's going to get.

It does appear that if Apple fully implements AVB from built-in ethernet then that could seriously cut down on the number of hardware audio interfaces that are needed in a multi-rig setup. I've watched the demo video for Dante Via and it sounds like everything MOTU was talking about regarding built-in ethernet implementation of AVB was basically the same as what Dante Via is doing. 

At first, you'd think MOTU would be upset about the fact that this might reduce the number of AVB interfaces they'll sell, but let's remember - they are NOT Avid. They seem to share the motto of sheriff Ed Tom Bell in "No Country For Old Men" - i.e. "You can't stop what's a'comin'." If they can position themselves as the trailblazers of AVB for studio applications, they'll have the biggest slice of whatever smaller pie remains. Smart.

Oh, and they are definitely considering another interface for the AVB series with lots of digital connections - like MADI and/or 16 AES pairs, so the AVB hardware rollout might not be totally over yet. In terms of analog boxes, the current lineup is probably what we'll be working with for a while, but an all-digital interface "might" come at some point. MOTU recognize that big rooms like dub stages love MADI and if they've got things like Euphonix System 5 consoles, multiple HDX rigs, etc. that they aren't going to tear all that gear out and replace it with AVB stuff, so an AVB>MADI box makes a lot of sense. I would not be a bit surprised if that happens.

How the various systems will compare vis-a-vis latency, etc. remains to be seen - but I have a good feeling about Apple AVB in that if it's implemented right at the OS + CoreAudio level, perhaps the system will be able to ping the network, calculate system latency, and allow for correcting it right in the DAW, just as it does with VEP or plugins. Fingers crossed!

I'm not clear on how much overlap there is with all the pro sound hardware for live concert venues that supports audio-over-cat5, and whether that stuff is using AVB, Dante, or some other protocol. I don't know if AES50 is the same as AVB, different but compatible, or something totally incompatible - but AES50 seems to be widely implemented in live sound, all the way down to things like the Behringer X-32 mixers ($2,800), which have AES50 (two ports) right on the back and not even on an optional card. I know there are lots of cue mix systems that use AES50 to distribute multichannel audio to remote headphone boxes that allow each player to dial in their own mix from a multichannel feed, so clearly the whole "multichannel audio over CAT5" deal is not bleeding-edge tech anymore.

Fun times ahead!


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## jamwerks (Aug 20, 2014)

Interesting info! I'd imagine that maybe VSL might have some new features for the next version of VEP.


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## chimuelo (Aug 21, 2014)

X32 Racks have AES50 as standard kit also.
We haven't seen the protocol anywhere in action yet, so we opted for ADAT and MADI
using ADA8200s and a Ferrofish MADI/ADAT so we can keep our crappy
PCM70 and DEP-5 reverbs as they don't suffer from that behind the cone
sound of Native and DSP FX. 
X32s are excellent mixers for connectivity but there's no replacing old hardware
based reverbs, or the XITE-1/XITE-1d for high quality FX for real time needs.
The Midas mic pres Behringer has now is a huge step up in quality from their older consumer gear. 
The ADA8200 was 250 USD and it sounds fine live, but for recording
the Ferrofish MADI/ADAT is still King.
This might be a great IEM monitor board in the future too.
I use a QUNexus for automating the vocal FX and the drummer loves his iPad
for the X32 Racks. Very little clutter in the racks these days.




images upload


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## pablo1980 (Nov 24, 2014)

So, apart from the avb system, has anybody tried the new motu line? 

I am thinking about the 24ao for extra outputs and wanted to know how it performs conversion wise against an orion32.


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