# How to achieve ambiance setting of an orchestral hall



## constaneum (Jan 14, 2016)

I've been looking for a way to achieve the ambiance as well as the hall sound of an orchestral hall like those soundtracks recorded for film scores such as John Williams' music. Let's say I have the virtual orchestral instrument sets but I can't seem to achieve hall i've wanted. What would you recommend? I have VSS2 and QL Spaces. Do they suffice? I wanna achieve those traditional orchestral setup kind of sound instead of the current famous "blast at your face" kind of sound. I want the samples to sound like it's placed in a big hall but not too much reverb applied that will cause it to sound muddy. Any good guide on achieving the hall ambiance which i'm looking for ? Thanks !


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## kunst91 (Jan 14, 2016)

Given what you have I think the simplest way would be to send each orchestral section to its respective "So. Cal" preset in spaces (strings, brass, choir, woodwinds, etc). You can also filter out the low end of the verb to avoid mud


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## muk (Jan 15, 2016)

VSS2 and QL Spaces are definitely fine for what you want to do. There are many different ways you can approach it. Here's but one suggestion:

I would use VSS2 to place your instruments on stage, but without it's ERs. I don't particularly like them, and would prefer Spaces for that. VSS2 would function as an easy to use 3D-panner, Spaces provides the actual reverb.


Step 1 only applies for libraries that have been recorded 'center stage'. Skip step 1 for libraries that are recorded in place (meaning the instruments were recorded playing from their normal orchestral position on stage). Companies that record center stage are VSL and 8dio, for example. Spitfire and Orchestral Tools do record in place, meaning their libraries are already pre-panned.

Step 2 only applies for libraries that were recorded (fairly) dry, like VSL. Libraries that have some ambience baked in will most probably need no additional ERs at all. If you overdo it you'll color the sound and/or create mud.

Step 3 can apply to dry and wet libraries alike. If you are blending different libraries together, applying the same tail to all libraries can make them sit together. It will approximate the different reverbs of the libraries and make the different room informations less prominent. Experiment with different tail lengths for different libraries, always using the same IR for the tail. Also experiment with different mic mixes if a library offers several mic positions.

1. insert an instance of VSS2 on each instrument. Place each instrument on stage. Turn off the ERs, and check whether you want the air absorption or not according to personal preference.

2. Create 4 group tracks, one for strings, one for woodwinds, one for brass, and finally one for percussion. Route the instruments to the according group bus. On each group bus, insert an instance of Spaces. Choose a sufficiently short IR (ACME Storage for example), this one is only to provide some sense of space and depth, not for the tail. Adjust the wet level: the nearer the section the lower the wet level. So, strings will be driest, then winds, brass, and finally percussion. You can adjust the predelay for each group as well if you like (general wisdom: the closer the instrument group is to the listener, the higher predelay. The further away, the shorter. Though personally I have some question marks with that approach). Experiment until you think you have created a good sense of depth with a nice, spacious sound. But it should be relatively dry still.

3. Create a new group track, name it 'Orchestra'. Route all four group tracks to this new group. Here, insert another instance of Spaces. This one will provide the tail, which is the same for all instruments. Use SoCall-Hall, or the Hamburg Cathedral, or anything you like really. Again, if you like, you can experiment with the predelay, so that the tail comes in only after the ERs are fading away.

These are some quick pointers that should get you in the right ballpark. Experiment with the settings. Try different IRs to find the ones you want to use for a specific project. If you are not happy with the width you get with this procedure, experiment with inserting a stereo delay for certain (or all) instruments and delaying one channel a bit. Do whatever sounds best for you.


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## Paul T McGraw (Jan 15, 2016)

I know almost nothing about reverb and mastering so I really thank muk for taking the time to explain. I have been searching for information about how to use reverb and that was the clearest set of directions I have yet seen. Thank you muk!


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## kunst91 (Jan 15, 2016)

muk said:


> VSS2 and QL Spaces are definitely fine for what you want to do. There are many different ways you can approach it. Here's but one suggestion:
> 
> I would use VSS2 to place your instruments on stage, but without it's ERs. I don't particularly like them, and would prefer Spaces for that. VSS2 would function as an easy to use 3D-panner, Spaces provides the actual reverb.
> 
> ...



Isn't VSS2 only necessary if the instruments aren't pre-panned?


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## muk (Jan 15, 2016)

You are welcome Paul. Glad my quick rambling was of help. If you have any questions, now is the time 

Important caveat, kunst91. It's true, if you are working with pre-panned libraries I would recommend to not use VSS at all - unless you really have to and know what you are doing. It's usually much better to leave their panning as is. I'll add that to my first post.


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## dreamnight92 (Jan 15, 2016)

I also use some proximity tricks: add a slight delay for far instruments (not more then 20-40 ms) and an air absorbion using a shelving eq. 
But it really depends from the library you're using, for example I use Hollywood series that were recorded in place and have solid early reflections, so that I just add tails to get the right spacing. 
For other libs, I usually load just close mics and add ER from the studio of hollywood series, then the tail. 
It works pretty nice. 

For pre-panned libraries I'd prefer to use stereo manipolator tools (for example S1) to wide or narrow the stereo image until they fit. 

I usually also cut off lots of low frequencies from reverb (Hi pass filter 6db/oct around 500-550 Hz) both in the ER and tail reverb, what do you think?


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## MarcelM (Jan 15, 2016)

is it really that bad to use vss2 with prepanned librarys?

i mean it comes with alot of presets for prepanned librarys, and i wonder why then.

so panning with pre panned things is always bad?


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## bap_la_so_1 (Jan 15, 2016)

Heroix said:


> is it really that bad to use vss2 with prepanned librarys?
> 
> i mean it comes with alot of presets for prepanned librarys, and i wonder why then.
> 
> so panning with pre panned things is always bad?


Vss has the input offset function that "centerise" the pre panned input source, so that you can move it around in vss. But i found it mess with the sound a bit


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## Hannes_F (Jan 16, 2016)

Moved to Post Pro & Mixing


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## muk (Jan 16, 2016)

Heroix said:


> is it really that bad to use vss2 with prepanned librarys?



It can be, if you are not cautious of what you do. I'm of the opinion that it is best to leave a naturally panned sound as it is. If you have to mess with it I would prefer a dedicated stereo tool over VSS2. It gives you more direct control, there is nothing going on 'under the hood' that you could oversee.
It's true, VSS2 comes with presets for pre-panned libraries. But why would you want to use them? If you are working with a traditional orchestral seating, the sounds are perfectly panned already. I find the VSS2 presets are like an invitation to alter the panning of pre-panned libraries where there is really no need to. Don't use them simply because they are there. If somethings working don't try to fix it.
In short, I find it not ideal to use VSS2 for this kind of task. Firstly, because it encourages you to use it where it would be better not to. If you really want to re-pan something pre-panned - one occasion could be when you want your Vl 2 seated on the opposite side of the stage than Vl 1 (what is absurdly called 'european seating', as opposed to the 'american seating') - in my opinion you are better off with a traditional panner, your ears, and a goniometer.


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## Audio Birdi (Jan 17, 2016)

I've been messing around recently to try and achieve depth, using close microphone positions inside the EW Hollywood Series libraries. 

I have 2 instances of Spaces, One for room placement and another for tail. 

Depending on where the instrument section should be seated within the orchestra, I've setup group tracks / aux tracks for each section of orchestra, these contain a send of the room reverb instance per section. All set to 0 dB. 

I then adjust each fader of the actual group track to correspond to how far away each section is from the listener. 

The lower the track fader. The closer the instrument is. So 0 dB = the furthest possible distance from the listener. 

I then apply the same tail reverb as a send, set at 0 dB, to all instrument tracks.

I hope this helps.


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## Beat Kaufmann (Jan 26, 2016)

constaneum said:


> I've been looking for a way to achieve the ambiance as well as the hall sound of an orchestral hall like those soundtracks recorded for film scores such as John Williams' music. Let's say I have the virtual orchestral instrument sets but I can't seem to achieve hall i've wanted. What would you recommend? I have VSS2 and QL Spaces. Do they suffice? ...



First of all, do not believe that you can import some instruments in a mixing-machine (such as VSS, MIR etc) and you will get a mix à la John Williams without doing a bit more.
Secondly: Mixing is an Art. John William's sound tracks are mixed by artists with a lot of skills and also they mix real recordings...

So do not be sad when your mixes don't sound as those from Williams...

But yes, you always will be able to improve your mixes with sample music. Here are some points to make some steps foreward.

1. Listen carefully to those mixes you want to reach as well. Observe positions of instruments and instrument sections and draw the virtual stage for example of a piece from John Williams. Do this for the original music of Jurassic Park and you will be surprised where you will find instruments on the virtual stage - all these positions are done for the most transparent sound and for reaching the classical positions of a symphonic orchestra. Of course Brass instruments are behind the strings and so on...
Observe as well how shiny instruments sound. You will be surprised as well how "dark" instruments sound which are playing far a way. Most of us have probably nice depths but the destroy the effect by enhancing the high frequences too much. These belong only to very close positioned instruments.

2. Try to do a mix with your samples with the same positions (left to right and close to far).

3a) Please overdo the matter of "close to far" (depths). Use 3 VSS with closer and farther adjustments for reaching these overdone depths. Or even better: Create those depths yourself...
3b) Do not make far instruments too shiny (see at 1.)
3c) Do not "over arrange" your piece --> Observe John William's music. No melody covers another... He is very consequent. He seems to compose also for a transparent mix...

4. Master all your stems (Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, Percussion) before doing the mainmix so that no section sounds muddy and that there are no resonances (needs good monitors).

5. Mix the stems by using the volume-automation (as a conductor) so that always the important "section is on top" and less important sections are a bit more muted. If your mixer shifters moves all the time in the end you did your job (well?)

6. Use a light Reverb (tail) over all in the final output channel which glues all the sections a bit together. This means that you should not use a lot of tails for each section, only depths for having the different distances of the instruments.

These are some points which can help to come a bit closer to a good mix à la Williams

A lot of success and all the best
Beat

_Finally some mixing techniques in one piece, done with samples._
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMAkPT9ggtg (A video) which shows different depths, dark sounds (back) and shiny ones (front (solo violin)), the farther away the mono - the closer the more left to right (stereo) and a band which is completely mixed in its own room...
It also shows that every single "instrument" can be nicely recognized when a mix is well done (see upper points). Have fun and new inspirations for your mixes.


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## Vin (Jan 26, 2016)

I went from using 10+ reverbs, each for near, mid, far etc. to using that + Virtual Sound Stage, SPAT and similar tools to using only one, good old algorithmic reverb on a send.


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## afterlight82 (Jan 26, 2016)

A great many orchestral film scores, especially of recent years (and I'm not talking hybrid - just orch) don't try and sound like "orchestral halls" in the strict concert hall sense at all. If you've ever looked at JW's more recent final surround mixes (and I've had that pleasure) you'd be very surprised how "present" the surrounds are in Shawn Murphy's mixes. These were not reverbs bussed to the back, nor were they washy...they wouldn't have sounded awful as an LR - they were almost as hot as the LCR. Reverb was actually pretty subtle, and I'd guess on the mixes I heard it was the old pair of Lex 480's for LR and LS RS approach. It was mostly room, though, to be honest, almost all in the mics. I'm pretty sure for orchestral stuff he barely touches eq, even on mix, and certainly only a few db here and there, nothing drastic. The phase relationships are too good for it to be any other way.

But either way, don't be constrained by what such and such a convolution says (just because a patch is called "Xyz scoring stage, this instrument position" does not actually mean that it _must_ sound good, nor does "eq this low end out because that's how the physics works" mean that all recordings of that instrument need high passing, etc. etc.)...go with your ears. There are certain patches people have gravitated to purely because they are named something, not because of how they sound. Some of them are great. Some of them not so much.


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## mwarsell (Jan 27, 2016)

Regarding Orchestral Tools, e.g. BWW, the solo instruments are panned in the center. But the others are "in situ".

Thanks Beat and others for the great posts.


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