# Big shakeup at Native Instruments



## Ashermusic

Management Shakeup at Native Instruments: Changing roles for Daniel Haver and Mate Galic


KVR Audio Industry Focus: Daniel Haver (L) and Mate Galic Native Instruments co-founder and CEO Daniel Haver and CIO/President Mate Galic are stepping away from their current roles at the company. Constantin Koehncke is movi...




www.kvraudio.com


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## EvilDragon

Few weeks old news. In the meantime - business continues as usual 

EDIT: Aug 12th, in fact.


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## vitocorleone123

Another big shake up. Things NEVER stay identical after an acquisition. I've been through many on both sides.

-----
https://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...cisco-Partners

Native Instruments has been acquired by their investors, who will take the majority share.

MUNICH & BERLIN--(BUSINESS WIRE)--EMH Partners, and the Founding Shareholders of Native Instruments, announced today the signing of a definitive agreement to sell a majority of their shares in Native Instruments Holding GmbH, the Berlin-based global leader in digital music creation software and hardware, to Francisco Partners, a leading global investment firm that specializes in partnering with technology businesses. As part of the transaction EMH Partners, members of the Native Instruments founding team, and key Native Instruments’ employees will retain a significant minority stake in the company.
Native Instruments was founded in 1996 in Berlin and employs more than 400 employees worldwide. It operates 7 global offices and is active in more than 180 countries. Native Instruments is regarded as one of the spearheads of the democratisation of music production, as it enables creatives to produce their music without the large set-up costs associated with traditional music studios. Music professionals all around the globe have been relying on the company’s comprehensive music instrument library and high-quality software tools to support their music creation process, with an estimated 8 out of 10 tracks in the Billboard top 10 using Native Instruments technology.
In 2017, EMH Partners invested 50 million Euros in Native Instruments, followed by a further investment in 2020 to achieve majority ownership in the company. The management and board of Native Instruments, together with EMH, have developed the company significantly and expanded its position in the industry:

Revenues in Native Instruments’ music creation tools increased by 60% since EMH’s investment in 2017;
Monthly active users more than doubled to 1.5 million by the end of 2020;
Industry partners on Native Instruments’ technology platforms increased by 60%, cementing the company’s global technology leadership.
With Francisco Partners, Native Instruments is planning to further enhance its product leadership, drive consolidation in the growing and fragmented market for digital music creation and extend its already leading position in the industry.
“As an innovator in digital music creation, with a supreme brand recognition and outstanding software technology, Native Instruments is a perfect platform and partner for Francisco Partners. We look forward to working together with the management team and the existing shareholder group, utilising our broad operational and strategic experience and M&A capabilities to help the company accelerate its growth trajectory,” said Matt Spetzler, Co-Head Europe and Partner at Francisco Partners. Spetzler will join the Native Instruments board of directors.
“We are very excited to join forces with the Native Instruments team and the existing shareholders, and firmly believe they are the platform to back in the exciting space of music creation,” added Mario Razzini, Principal at Francisco Partners, who will also join the board.
Dominik Schwarz, Partner at EMH Partners says: “Our partnership with Native Instruments underlines our strength as a leading partner for technology entrepreneurs in German-speaking Europe. We invest in technology-driven mid-sized companies and support these companies with capital, digitalization know-how, and international access. Over the last weeks Francisco Partners has recognized Native Instruments’ excellent international position, strong leadership team and significant future potential. Due to their deep expertise in developing technology companies on a global scale we welcome Francisco Partners and look forward to continuing our partnership with Native Instruments.”
“With their entrepreneurial DNA, EMH were exceptional partners to support the company and its management over the past years in a time of transition and strong growth as a result. I look forward to their continued involvement with Native Instruments,” said Daniel Haver, Co-Founder, former CEO, and Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Native Instruments. “I would like to thank all employees for their incredible achievements as well as Constantin and Robert for their great contributions over the years and their strong leadership in their new roles as CEO and CPO of Native Instruments.”
Constantin Koehncke, CEO of Native Instruments, concluded: “There’s never been a more exciting time in music, with more creators producing more high-quality music all around the world. We’re thrilled to team up with Francisco Partners to enter the next phase of our journey, combining their global resources and expertise with our passionate team, deep relationships within music and proven track record of technical innovation. Together we can realize our mission to empower and inspire the global community of music creators and help them unlock their creative potential through more seamless experiences. Thanks to the support of EMH Partners over the past years we were able to further reinforce and expand our position as the leading digital music creation company, and we now look forward to working with Francisco Partners, EMH Partners and the founding shareholders to continue on this amazing journey.“
While terms of the transaction were not disclosed, the purchase price reflects the significant value generation during EMH Partners’ ownership.
The transaction is expected to close in the first quarter of 2021, subject to customary closing conditions and regulatory review.
Native Instruments and its shareholders were advised by GCA Altium and Milbank. Francisco Partners was advised by Raymond James and Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer.
*About Native Instruments*
Native Instruments is the leading manufacturer of software and complementary hardware for computer-based music production and DJing. The company’s mission is to develop innovative, fully integrated solutions for all professions, styles and genres empowering all music creators. The resulting products regularly push technological boundaries and open up new creative horizons for professionals and amateurs alike. Native Instruments opened up the fascinating world of real-time sound synthesis on standard computers in 1996, and today offers an extensive product range for musicians, producers and DJs. From its seven offices in Berlin, Los Angeles, Tokyo, London, Toronto, Paris, and Shenzhen, the Company is active in over 180 countries. For more information on Native Instruments, please visit native-instruments.com.
*About Francisco Partners*
Francisco Partners is a leading global investment firm that specializes in partnering with technology and technology-enabled businesses. Since its launch over 20 years ago, Francisco Partners has raised over $24 billion in committed capital and invested in more than 300 technology companies, making it one of the most active and longstanding investors in the technology industry. The firm invests in opportunities where its deep sectoral knowledge and operational expertise can help companies realize their full potential. For more information on Francisco Partners, please visit www.franciscopartners.com.
*About EMH Partners*
EMH Partners is an owner-led investment firm by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs. As a next-generation private equity company and one of the leading investors in the DACH region, EMH Partners supports the growth of Mittelstand companies with capital, digitalization and expansion expertise. EMH Partners invests in market-leading, owner-managed companies to accompany them in partnership during the next growth phase. Today, EMH Partners manages more than €1 billion of committed capital. For more information on EMH Partners, please visit www.emh.com.





Contacts​*Francisco Partners*
Whit Clay and Dan Zacchei
[email protected] and [email protected]

*Native Instruments*
Thomas Evans, Communications Manager
[email protected]

*EMH Partners*
Richard Berg, Director Communications
[email protected]


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## Nick Batzdorf

That press release is a parody of corporate press releases.


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## SirkusPi

This kind of makes me worried to be so heavily invested in the Kontakt ecosystem. But nothing to do now but see what happens. As a Mac / Logic user, I wish Apple had bought NI instead! (Kidding! Kidding! Don't throw things at me!)


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## vitocorleone123

SirkusPi said:


> This kind of makes me worried to be so heavily invested in the Kontakt ecosystem. But nothing to do now but see what happens. As a Mac / Logic user, I wish Apple had bought NI instead! (Kidding! Kidding! Don't throw things at me!)


Likely it'll be a slow shift, so no rush to jump ship. But there will be changes. And I wouldn't be surprised if a subscription option became available within months. <-- pure speculation, but that's the way of tech

That said, I think I have Kontakt and Super 8 and.... that's it. I bought and sold Komplete within a year as it wasn't worth it to me vs. everything else I have I thought was better for me.


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## JEPA

would this affect third party sample library developers for Kontakt?


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## EvilDragon

Not really, no. So far it doesn't affect anyone at NI in any way either.


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## Macrawn

Great.... a sale to a private equity firm that has no knowledge or interest other than $$$$. 

They won't make big changes, as they don't know how to run the business, but if they see an opportunity to extract more out of it via subscription model, or trying to buy out another player or two and really control the market they will.


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## vitocorleone123

Macrawn said:


> Great.... a sale to a private equity firm that has no knowledge or interest other than $$$$.
> 
> They won't make big changes, as they don't know how to run the business, but if they see an opportunity to extract more out of it via subscription model, or trying to buy out another player or two and really control the market they will.


That's my experience (with some exceptions depending on friendliness of people). The company I work for was recently acquired by another that has several brands under an umbrella. In theory, it should remain fairly autonomous. In reality, over time, there'll be some "efficiencies" made, at least in shared resource teams.

Change is a constant. Acquisitions just take a bit to build up speed.

While likely not in a rush, if I worked for NI, I'd make sure my resume was up to date in the coming month(s).


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## Nick Batzdorf

EvilDragon said:


> Not really, no. So far it doesn't affect anyone at NI in any way either.





Nick Batzdorf said:


> That press release is a parody of corporate press releases.



They still make some great instruments, just to be clear! My aversion is to bullshit, not to the company.


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## jeffreycl

I don't know. After perusing though FP's portfolio at a high level, it will be interesting to see what synergies they think they can leverage. However, NI runs deep but EW already has Play, OT now has Sine, Spitfire has their own engine, UVI, etc... Competition is developing and I don't think FP will take NI and destroy it for a short term few bucks. If they come in and force items which users do not like, the competition is already out there and will swoop in like vultures.
They should take their knowledge of the tech business and management structure to help NI grow and gain market share in this niche. I have noted to myself over the years that NI seems to be slowly losing a battle in the business world to competition. Don't get me wrong...I like NI...a lot...and want to see it thrive.
This might be the "shot in the arm" NI needs to rise back to power, crush Sine, Spitfire engine, Play and force those companies to all bow to Kontakt, who embraces those who embrace them and destroy all those who oppose.....sorry...got a bit carried away.


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## JEPA

Competition is healthy in the way that you develop your self to be better than yourself taking as reference the other competitors, but to


jeffreycl said:


> destroy all those who oppose...


? 

I know this but in chess... and monarchies and authoritarian states... and I like variety. 
For example I love Synchron Player, would be nice to have it open to third party.


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## ScarletJerry

I wish the press release read something like this:

MUNICH & BERLIN--(BUSINESS WIRE)--EMH Partners, and the Founding Shareholders of Native Instruments, announced today the signing of a definitive agreement to sell a majority of their shares in Native Instruments Holding GmbH, the Berlin-based global leader in digital music creation software and hardware, to Francisco Partners, a leading global investment firm that specializes in partnering with technology businesses.

As part of the transaction, Native Instruments will develop a resizable user interface for Kontakt and will offer $300 coupons for the Native Instruments store to all Kontakt owners.

Scarlet Jerry


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## GtrString

The beginning of the end..


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## Crowe

Ugh. Another acquisition by a company that doesn't actually know anything about the ecosystem they're buying into. That always ends well for the end-user. This crap really needs to stop.


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## ReleaseCandidate

Actually Kontakt isn't the part that would need most attention at NI, but their synths. Reaktor Racks hasn't that many 3rd parties and the rest is mostly sold as part of Komplete.


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## Virtuoso

The blurb calls out the growth in 'monthly active users', so I wouldn't be surprised if they move to some kind of subscription model.

I just wish they would split Kontakt off and sell it to someone who's actually interested in developing it. Kontakt 6 was the most underwhelming release ever.


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## thesteelydane

As someone who develops for Kontakt for a living, this has me worried...


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## Rory

Francisco Partners Web Site

Wikipedia: Francisco Partners


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## Bear Market

In my experience (having worked a decade in international trade finance and commercial credit risk), a PE acquisition usually means:

- Increased leverage
- Aggressive cost-cutting
- Planned exit within 3-5 years

It's not like they're acquiring NI in order to improve the customer experience. They're acquiring it because they think they can pump up the company's valuation and sell their stake at a nice profit in 3-5 years. As a consumer, one can only hope that a potential increase in NI's valuation would come as a result of an improved value proposition to its customers. Time will tell.


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## d.healey

thesteelydane said:


> As someone who develops for Kontakt for a living, this has me worried...


There are alternatives


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## ScoringFilm

Did this, I wonder, have any influence on Wolfgang Schneider (the creator of Kontakt) now working for East West?


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## jeffreycl

Just to clarify...destroying all those who oppose...was meant joking as though someone getting carried away with absolute power.
I know competition is healthy but also from a business perspective, I would want my business to be in control of the market where my competitors are fighting to obtain my market share while I defend it and try to grow it. It is that drive which fuels the competition.

But, Bear Market has a good point. NI is just another "stock" in FP's portfolio. They bought it because they think they can improve on their investment and increase valuation which means profit. Yes, there is a short term approach which can destroy a business for quick cash. In the end the business has to be rebuilt or shut down. Or, there is a more long term approach to increase value by improving customer experience and improve the product. I don't know the strategy they will take but based on their portfolio turnover Bear Market does make a good case.


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## Evans

Bear Market said:


> They're acquiring it because they think they can pump up the company's valuation and sell their stake at a nice profit in 3-5 years.


This is the interesting part and where my mind goes: who would be seen as a new buyer in 3-5 years?


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## JEPA

Evans said:


> This is the interesting part and where my mind goes: who would be seen as a new buyer in 3-5 years?


Yamaha? Sony? Disney? Apple?


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## Manaberry

EvilDragon said:


> Not really, no. So far it doesn't affect anyone at NI in any way either.


There are still people left? I thought they would leave as much as projects get canceled haha


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## EvilDragon

Yeah, in fact more people are being hired.



ScoringFilm said:


> Did this, I wonder, have any influence on Wolfgang Schneider (the creator of Kontakt) now working for East West?



Wolfgang is not with NI since at least 2013.


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## leonardo

ScoringFilm said:


> Did this, I wonder, have any influence on Wolfgang Schneider (the creator of Kontakt) now working for East West?


I don't think so, he sold his Kontakt author rights to NI many years ago (Kontakt was still his personal property during the first versions) and left NI after. So he's out since quite a few years.

Edit: EvilDragon was faster


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## Rory

Bear Market said:


> ...a PE acquisition usually means:
> 
> - Planned exit within 3-5 years
> 
> ...sell their stake at a nice profit in 3-5 years.


It depends on the deal, but my understanding is that the norm in the equity fund business is actually more like ten years.


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## darkogav

That press article says nothing. NI are a huge company and they make great products. I am sure Kontakt will be around a very long time. I am pretty sure the next version of Kontakt will have resizable GUI.


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## Bear Market

Rory said:


> It depends on the deal, but my understanding is that the norm in the equity fund business is actually more like ten years.


Sure, it depends on many factors such as sector, current market sentiment, and the structure of the PE firm's funding. 10 years, though, would be far above the average investment horizon. Most investment analyses are modeled on a, at most, 5 year holding period.


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## wst3

I've been through a couple of private equity firm acquisitions. It wasn't pretty! I even interviewed with a PE firm years ago when I worked as a Unix geek. I couldn't get out of that building fast enough.

It is partly (mostly) a pre-formed opinion that PE firms serve no purpose other than to make their partners wealthier and wealthier. And I admit, I absolutely grin watching the PE firm that bought a former employer lose value, they had no clue about the marketplace they were entering, and it bit them! I think they are five years past their intended sell date. Poor babies.

Most of these deals do end up going well for the PE firm, if not so well for the companies. And the customers.

There are exceptions (can't think of one off the top of my head) where the newly acquired company does really well. That requires a PE firm that is in it for the long haul, which is something of a paradox. Quick flip is the norm. 

What does this mean for us? We will have to wait and see. It is too early to assume this will be a train wreck, even if the odds favor that outcome. It is possible that NI will continue to grow, and improvements to Kontakt will happen more rapidly.

That's what I am hoping for!


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## ism

d.healey said:


> There are alternatives


Yep, between HISE, and even the new Spitfire and OT engines, were NI to do something to, say, veered aggressively towards a amore lucrative electronic market at the expense of orchestral sample (or innovation in orchestral sampling), there's enough viable alternate technology there to create alternatives. Particularly in a couple of years when the SF and OT engines are a bit more mature. It's not impossible to imagine them licensing the technology, explicitly for orchestral sampling. 

But hopefully something will happen, somewhere soon. Because KSP is a fabulous technology ... if this were 2002. It still does the job of course, but it's generations out of date.

And while it's early yet, there are some promising innovations in Sine and the SF player, though of course we're still seeing the fundamentals being consolidated. The mic mixing, for instance, in SINE, and the ability to swap between different versions of BBCSO in the SF engine. 

None of these are remotely approaching "Kontakt-killer" apps yet. But it's also hard to see a motivation for NI to push innovation in these directions, it just serves too small a subset of Kontakt users. 

But extrapolate these imaginatively 5 or 10 years, and into a world where our new machines have dozens and dozens of processor cores, and imagine the ability for 3rd parties to license the technology, based on something that isn't KSP.

That said, the scale (and budget) of Kontakt, had let it invest in innovation like the Kontakt debugger, which is not something that's going to makes your legato sound better on its own. Yet in the larger scheme of thing, this has the potential to make for much better and more sophisticated instruments, produced at much lower cost. And I can imagine that this might not have been a cheap thing to do. 


In any event, with NI going fully private, it's going to be market forces alone that drive innovation in Kontakt. So it's nice that there is a competitive environment for sample libraries. 

And there's still lots and lots of great talent at NI. So I'm cautiously optimistic.


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## Tim_Wells

I'm not too worried, but I do not like subscription models. Hopefully, if they go that route they'll also continue to offer the purchase option (like EastWest). I'd bet $10 that they do.


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## Rory

Tim_Wells said:


> I'm not too worried, but I do not like subscription models. Hopefully, if they go that route they'll also continue to offer the purchase option (like EastWest). I'd bet $10 that they do.


Capture One offers both. It is making purchase increasingly unattractive.


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## Mike Greene

I don't think OT's or Spitfire's or VSL's or East West's players will ever be made available to other companies. Those players are specialized to their owner's needs, so anyone migrating from Kontakt to any one of them is going to have a lot of disappointments where certain features in Kontakt aren't there in SINE or PLAY.

That's what happened with me when I tried HISE for the Realivox Blue update. It was a constant string of little things that were hard to work around, to the point where I finally pulled the plug. Kontakt has a whooooole lot of stuff we take for granted now.

So if OT decided to open up SINE to the likes of us, they're going to have deal with a zillion requests/complaints from developers about various features, as well as a learning curve for each developer that won't be as easy as telling them to visit the KSP sub-forum here. It will be a whole lotta hassle for - and this is the important part - a relatively small amount of income compared to what they already make with their own products.


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## ptram

Is this news all that bad? As I read it, the German investor helped the financials of NI mature enough, to make the company be so interesting that an American investor specialized in technologies found it to be a good deal.

The logic behind these acquisitions is that the nerd founders of a successful company are not always the best people in administration. They need an aid from an established firm specialized in administrating average-size companies.

At this point, either the company is bought by a bigger company (say, AKG from Samsung or Steinberg from Yamaha), or you need capital ventures. And these are there to make money from a solid technological asset, that they think can be lucrative.

Paolo


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## ism

Mike Greene said:


> I don't think OT's or Spitfire's or VSL's or East West's players will ever be made available to other companies. Those players are specialized to their owner's needs, so anyone migrating from Kontakt to any one of them is going to have a lot of disappointments where certain features in Kontakt aren't there in SINE or PLAY.
> 
> That's what happened with me when I tried HISE for the Realivox Blue update. It was a constant string of little things that were hard to work around, to the point where I finally pulled the plug. Kontakt has a whooooole lot of stuff we take for granted now.
> 
> So if OT decided to open up SINE to the likes of us, they're going to have deal with a zillion requests/complaints from developers about various features, as well as a learning curve for each developer that won't be as easy as telling them to visit the KSP sub-forum here. It will be a whole lotta hassle for - and this is the important part - a relatively small amount of income compared to what they already make with their own products.



Granted that this is the situation now, and it's entirely predictable that an open source project like HISE is so full of little hassles. 

But on a 5-10 year time frame, here's what might - at least conceivably - change


a) First of all, what we need here is a real focus on sampling technology for *orchestral* libraries. Currently Kontakt and HISE need to be all things to all people. And this adds exponential complexity. Restricting to a reasonable, and very carefully designed subset of use cases with pinpoint focus on solving and abstracting the problems of creating orchestral samples would be the first, essential step in getting the massive simplification that such am imagined future would require. 


b) Also imagine that OT/SF engines mature significantly in handling all those little things relevant to orchestral sample library development.


c) In this future world, we can also assume that users have a *lot* more processing power. Let's assure that any given user will have at least 64 cores. What this might do is open up platform and language level abstractions that were simply not available at the time KSP was introduces. KSP is actually quite low level. Imagine it as a kind of antique machine language, compared to the kind of abstractions that modern language design and processing power will allow. 


d) Moreover, there's has been a lot of work in this kind of platform abstraction going on in technology in general. None of this is aimed at orchestral sampling. But it might, in not too distant a future, provide abstractions and frameworks mature enough to be, relatively easily, copied and pasted into the code base of one of our hypothetical future sample players. 


Or not so relatively easily. But the point is that what we need is the right level of abstractions for library developers that insulates them from the lower level of technical complexities. 

My argument here is that KSP and HISE (and quite possibly the current implementation so SINE and SF) represent an old paradigm in this kind abstraction. 

If NI were building Kontakt from scratch now, and they had hired engineers with deep understandings of recent developments in language design, and were designing for a world of ubiquitous processing power, they would not give us KSP. 


And to at least some extent, OT and SF aren't mired in legacy code, open source ideologies, and the logic of low-processing power environments, and antique language design semantics. 

So this is kind of a very technical argument (and also kind of a armchair argument, as I don't work in this industry). But it's at least possible to imagine signification advances in the *abstraction* layers of technology that would directly circumvent some of the kinds of hassles you experience with HISE. 

But only if - and it's a big if - there are market forces that allow resources to be channeled in this direction.


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## youngpokie

vitocorleone123 said:


> Monthly active users more than doubled to 1.5 million by the end of 2020;


That looks incredibly small - and it's probably still bigger than the user base of mostly orchestral samples...

I'm wondering what would be a definition of an active monthly user - someone who opens a Kontakt instance a few times within a month?


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## ism

d.healey said:


> Spitfire and OT's player, like EW play, are not replacements for Kontakt, they offer nothing for developers.


Quite right. And if HISE and/or Kontakt manage to take up the demand for innovation, I'm sure they never will. 

The point I was making was more that they could if, for instance, NI was to drop the ball. 

So if the new NI shareholders decide there's no money in innovation in orchestral sampling, there we're not completely hostage to an NI monopoly in the way that, not too long ago, it felt a bit like were were.


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## EvilDragon

youngpokie said:


> and it's probably still bigger than the user base of mostly orchestral samples...


It is, by a lot.

This forum is a niche, and NI caters to a much much wider audience, zillions of different workflows...


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## JEPA

EvilDragon said:


> It is, by a lot.
> 
> This forum is a niche, and NI caters to a much much wider audience, zillions of different workflows...


I am sincerely interested to know which other different workflows do exist? AFAIK:

- Kontakt for production, e.g. mockup, studio work
- Kontakt for live situations
- Maschine for DJing/production (live/studio)
- Reaktor for sound design/production
- Reaktor for live situations

...Live vs./& Studio

edit: and Traktor for live...


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## polypx

Techno


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## timbit2006

For what it's worth the Maschine+ clearly shows Kontakt being accessed so I doubt that'd be going away anytime soon.








What if NI is going to subscription based payment model?


I was just about to buy an S61 and ultimate bundle...do you think I should wait ?




www.native-instruments.com




The last 2 pages of this thread are worth reading, it implies they might add an additional subscription model and do a similar plan to Eastwest. I'm sure they get a lot of people asking why there's no subscription plans when a lot of other companies are offering it.
The key that supports this is in their new line,* “end-to-end user centric platform for the music creation industry”*
I'm personally hoping for the best, a lot of people depend on Kontakt.


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## Mike Greene

My concern is less about whether Kontakt has a future, and more about whether a subscription model is going to devalue content. If it costs $40/month for the Ultimate-Deluxe plan that includes all 3rd party libraries that made deals with NI (this is hypothetical), then all of a sudden, it's going to be harder to sell a ukulele library if there's already a good one in the Ultimate-Deluxe plan.

It reminds me of that beats platform they started, and they tried to get me to participate. Thousand (or millions?) of beats was the goal. Great for customers, but terrible for the content developers, since the numbers are so watered down.


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## Virtuoso

I'm sure the future business strategy involves integrating sounds.com into more products to get you to BUY BUY BUY! Even though I don't use it and have no desire or need to, the damned NTKDaemon pings sounds.com every 10 seconds all day, every day.


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## tmhuud

Of COURSE its most likely going subscription. I just bought a new printer for the studio and the friggin INK cartridges are sub only! C R A Z Y.....

TAG LNE: NEVER be without INK again!


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## MusiquedeReve

And I just bought an S88


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## Fry777

Virtuoso said:


> I'm sure the future business strategy involves integrating sounds.com into more products to get you to BUY BUY BUY! Even though I don't use it and have no desire or need to, the damned NTKDaemon pings sounds.com every 10 seconds all day, every day.



Interesting. Which monitoring software is this?


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## Virtuoso

Fry777 said:


> Interesting. Which monitoring software is this?











Little Snitch


Protects your privacy and prevents your private data from being sent out to the Internet without your knowledge.




www.obdev.at


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## jcrosby

I personally think the model they're going after is loopcloud. Sounds.com's in direct competition with Loopcloud, and NI's been making pretty big moves in that direction for a few years now... The _bedroom/loop producer _market's bigger and potentially a whole lot more profitable, which seems like the kind of market that appeals to a firm with this kind of cash to burn...

Speculation for sure... I am worried about the future of Kontakt though. (And sadly not at all surprised).


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## EvilDragon

Kontakt is literally the most important product for NI, nobody should be worried about it.


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## Lionel Schmitt

3, 2, 1...... 

..... 


SUBSCRIPTION!!!!!!!11111


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## KallumS

JEPA said:


> Yamaha? Sony? Disney? Apple?


Gibson?


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## JEPA

EvilDragon said:


> Kontakt is literally the most important product for NI, nobody should be worried about it.


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## el-bo

Mike Greene said:


> My concern is less about whether Kontakt has a future, and more about whether a subscription model is going to devalue content. If it costs $40/month for the Ultimate-Deluxe plan that includes all 3rd party libraries that made deals with NI (this is hypothetical), then all of a sudden, it's going to be harder to sell a ukulele library if there's already a good one in the Ultimate-Deluxe plan.


I'm wondering what would be so different to the situation we have now. Aren't we all already subscribed to NI? Whether we pay our $300 upgrade every year, or every two years, most of us are regularly contributing to a paid upgrade cycle that many developers would envy.

More surprising, though, is that the owner of this forum would suggest that one library of ANY instrument is enough


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## darkogav

too much speculation on this thread. when is the next version of Kontakt coming out?


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## AllanH

It could be a positive change. Comparing to Spitfire, I submit that Spitfire took the company to a new level after getting outside investors. 

Hopefully, the NI investors see value in the entire ecosystem and want to invest and expand. Moving founders to new positions or asking them to leave is quite common.


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## Raphioli

As long as they leave a purchase option, like East West, I'm fine with subscriptions.
But if they go sub-only like Adobe...../facepalm


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## Alex Fraser

jcrosby said:


> I personally think the model they're going after is loopcloud. Sounds.com's in direct competition with Loopcloud, and NI's been making pretty big moves in that direction for a few years now... The _bedroom/loop producer _market's bigger and potentially a whole lot more profitable, which seems like the kind of market that appeals to a firm with this kind of cash to burn...


I've just observed my daughter having her online school music lesson. Thanks covid.
The teacher literally has 30 kids all on some kind of online track/loop DAW thing, making hip-hop beats.


----------



## Mike Greene

el-bo said:


> I'm wondering what would be so different to the situation we have now. Aren't we all already subscribed to NI? Whether we pay our $300 upgrade every year, or every two years, most of us are regularly contributing to a paid upgrade cycle that many developers would envy.
> 
> More surprising, though, is that the owner of this forum would suggest that one library of ANY instrument is enough


I wonder that, too, although 50 bucks per month (or whatever the amount would be) will probably attract a lot more people than a cash outlay of $1,599. (Which is what I think the Big DaddyO package costs.)

Right now, part of the appeal to buying Kontakt (maybe the main appeal?) is that it opens up the possibility of buying so many non-Player libraries. Win-win for both NI and for for developers, especially smaller developers.

In a subscription model, though, where a Kontakt user is already paying a monthly fee, then the whole model shifts towards _"Why go elsewhere? We've got all the sounds you could ever need for only $30 more!"_ Considering the massive amount of sample content NI _already_ controls, there's a lot of appeal to that, which doesn't bode well for boutique companies.

I'm totally speculating, but I can't help but think of the iTunes store giving way to the Spotify model. The people with power in these relationships are the people delivering the content, not the people making it.



el-bo said:


> More surprising, though, is that the owner of this forum would suggest that one library of ANY instrument is enough


I would ban myself, but I don't know if that's a harsh enough punishment.


----------



## EvilDragon

Personally I don't think we will see subscription on Komplete any time soon. Or if it happens, it definitely won't be the _only_ method to purchase NI stuff (and this was mentioned a number of times by Paul Jeszensky on NI forums some time back).


----------



## shponglefan

EvilDragon said:


> Kontakt is literally the most important product for NI, nobody should be worried about it.


So... are we getting a High DPI version then?


----------



## patrick76

Mike Greene said:


> The people with power in these relationships are the people delivering the content, not the people making it.


Unfortunately this is very true.


----------



## EvilDragon

shponglefan said:


> So... are we getting a High DPI version then?






Just don't ask when. 


At any rate, it's inevitable.


----------



## JohnG

I think the title of the thread is overly dramatic, since it implies a momentous change to product lineup or employees, none of which seems to be contemplated in the press release or even applying common sense.

Looks like a change of ownership to a private equity firm that regularly invests in tech companies.

Like all tech companies, NI depends on a highly specialised, highly trained workforce, one that walks out the door every day and can probably find good jobs elsewhere. Consequently, this experienced acquirer presumably is aware of all that and is not intending to wreck everything.

Of course things could go wrong, but the new acquirers don't want to destroy the value of the company they just bought.

Could be a subscription some day, maybe sooner or later. It's not clear that this acquisition will affect that decision directly one way or another. We could speculate, but I think there's limited data.


----------



## el-bo

Mike Greene said:


> I wonder that, too, although 50 bucks per month (or whatever the amount would be) will probably attract a lot more people than a cash outlay of $1,599. (Which is what I think the Big DaddyO package costs.)


Given the current tier system, I'd imagine they'd pursue a multi-tiered subscription system similar to Plugin Alliance. They already have a clear delineation, though it might be interesting within a subscription model to expand the current 'Select' into a really tempting starter bundle.

How about:

Select - $7.99
Standard - $14.99
Ultimate - $25
Ultimate CE - $36.99

All speculation, of course 



Mike Greene said:


> In a subscription model, though, where a Kontakt user is already paying a monthly fee, then the whole model shifts towards _"Why go elsewhere? We've got all the sounds you could ever need for only $30 more!"_ Considering the massive amount of sample content NI _already_ controls, there's a lot of appeal to that, which doesn't bode well for boutique companies.


This is the bit I'm still not really getting. There are of course going to be an amount of people for who Komplete really is the only thing they ever buy. But for the rest of us (Many of whom do own Komplete), there's still a multitude of reasons to go elsewhere. None of that seems to be stopping anytime soon.



Mike Greene said:


> I'm totally speculating, but I can't help but think of the iTunes store giving way to the Spotify model. The people with power in these relationships are the people delivering the content, not the people making it.


But the presence of iTunes etc. doesn't stop me buying directly from an artist, on BandCamp, nor would NI's structure change stop me buying directly from any one of hundreds or boutique library developers.

Like I said, I don't see why there's be any change. Even if they offered a subscription mode, that wouldn't preclude them from still selling products outright. 

Guess we'll just have to wait 'n' see.



Mike Greene said:


> I would ban myself, but I don't know if that's a harsh enough punishment.


----------



## gsilbers

vitocorleone123 said:


> Likely it'll be a slow shift, so no rush to jump ship. But there will be changes. And I wouldn't be surprised if a subscription option became available within months. <-- pure speculation, but that's the way of tech
> 
> That said, I think I have Kontakt and Super 8 and.... that's it. I bought and sold Komplete within a year as it wasn't worth it to me vs. everything else I have I thought was better for me.



yeah, i think the same thing. hopefully it will not be ONLY subsription option like adobe but seeing all the other things fransisco partnets have done im getting the impression these guys have big ambitions for NI. Im thinking these guys will try to aim for Roland/yamaha/fender/etc sort of "big". even leaders in the music creation and maybe even licensing platform for music creators to sell to youtubers and such. 

if they had 2million users paying $120 a year for their different software prodcuts, thats about 240million a year. instead of the 3-5 year most of us wait to upgrade to komplete. 
they have like 200-500 partners who also pay into their services. 
and if they start releasing more keyboards, interfaces, DJ equipment, maybe even guitars and drums, and live sound, they could easily take over the industry. 
its a good brand. from composers to djs, hiphop to rock. everyone knows them and trusts them. 
at a time when guitar center and gibsons are bankrupt/in bad shape. its a perfect opportunity to fill that void, add a bunch of newcomers. Logic seems to be loosing poeple as well so a new daw w all plugins etc etc. 
And they only invested like $60milloin and now they can take over and turn it into a market leader. 
Then again... subscription based is not something any of us like.


----------



## el-bo

gsilbers said:


> Then again... subscription based is not something any of us like.


I've never been too sold on the idea of a subscription model, but NI has enough bases covered that it could easily make sense for the majority of music-makers.

if I had to choose one company's output to make music with, solely, it would be NI.


----------



## gsilbers

el-bo said:


> I've never been too sold on the idea of a subscription model, but NI has enough bases covered that it could easily make sense for the majority of music-makers.
> 
> if I had to choose one company's output to make music with, solely, it would be NI.


For newcomers it might make sense. there might be several tiers or per app like adobe.
For us who already have komplete then being forced to subscription based, even if its in the distant future, then not so cool. Avid almost went that way and went back to full license.
Avid is still one fo the most hated DAW/companies around because they misfired so many times, hopefully with NI theyll nail it at the first time and everyone will be happy. its a good brand.


----------



## darkogav

As a current NI Komplete customer, I don't recall seeing a subscription offer being put forward on the table. I would not be averse to the idea of it.


----------



## Alex Fraser

I have an NI sounds.com subscription I dip in and out of. As it’s audio only, you can use your downloads outside of your subscription and there’s no drm ties to your sounds. I think that’s very fair.

A komplete sub wouldn’t have the same flexibility. I can see the obvious benefit and would never judge others using it, but personally, a hard pass.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

gsilbers said:


> Avid is still one fo the most hated DAW/companies around because they misfired so many times,


And for what they did to Softimage (cancelled Matador and Media Illusion after buying it, changed 3D to the bug ridden XSI).

Regarding NI: would bé a great loss, they are one of the better companies regarding customer service - that includes their copy protection and ease of license transfers, their sales (no 250 USD products that are constantly on sale for 20) - and products (all of them, from Traktor to Machine, their synths and Kontakt), although they should hire some more UI experts .
The first time I heard about them was because of Traktor (or how their DJ hardware was called back then - I always thought the name to be a pun on 'Trecker' - pronounced like tracker), they AFAIK started as a big DJ alternative to Serato.


----------



## darkogav

Alex Fraser said:


> I have an NI sounds.com subscription I dip in and out of. As it’s audio only, you can use your downloads outside of your subscription and there’s no drm ties to your sounds. I think that’s very fair.
> 
> A komplete sub wouldn’t have the same flexibility. I can see the obvious benefit and would never judge others using it, but personally, a hard pass.


Would you not be able to sign up when you need access to the instuments, use the instruments you need, save your presets, export the audio file, then cancel your subscription. If you even need to re-visit the project , just sign up again.


----------



## Alex Fraser

darkogav said:


> Would you not be able to sign up when you need access to the instuments, use the instruments you need, save your presets, export the audio file, then cancel your subscription. If you even need to re-visit the project , just sign up again.


Yep, absolutely. I guess in theory that would be possible if you needed an instrument for a single project. That's a definite advantage.


----------



## d.healey

Alex Fraser said:


> Yep, absolutely. I guess in theory that would be possible if you needed an instrument for a single project. That's a definite advantage.


And then a few years later you go back to the project and the library you used is no longer available


----------



## darkogav

d.healey said:


> And then a few years later you go back to the project and the library you used is no longer available


I think it really depends on the per use cases. May not work for everyone but may work for some. I recall when Adobe switched to their cloud subscription model. A lot of complaining. But it sort of worked out well in the end. Unless you are a professional graphic designer and you use and work with Photoshop and Illustrator every day -- you don't really need access to the full blown version of the software on your desktop 24/7 365 days a year if you only going to use it once or twice a year for a few hours.


----------



## DoubleTap

People are focusing on software but NI is much more than Komplete and it could be that this PE firm sees more opportunities in hardware for savings/growth. Does anyone have any idea about profit margins for software v hardware? And DJ equipment seems like it's growing massively.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

DoubleTap said:


> Does anyone have any idea about profit margins for software v hardware?


Depends on the company, there is no general rule.


----------



## rnb_2

el-bo said:


> But the presence of iTunes etc. doesn't stop me buying directly from an artist, on BandCamp, nor would NI's structure change stop me buying directly from any one of hundreds or boutique library developers.


I think you have what Mike is saying backwards - iTunes is the Old Way, where you bought songs or albums (and the artist gets a set cut); Spotify/Apple Music is the New Way, where you pay a monthly fee and get access to everything (and most artists get pennies, if anything) as long as you keep paying.

By the same token, paying $X/month and getting access to everything that NI has in the catalog will give pennies to most developers in the bundle, whereas each purchase of either Komplete or an individual instrument would pay out a specific share to the developer. This is without getting into the complexity of paying out on a sub based on how much each element gets used, which may be beyond the scope of what NI would ever want to do. So, the bigger the bundle, the smaller the cut to each developer, and the question is whether there could be enough subscriptions to make up for all of the sales that no longer happen.

Plus, the availability of a library that comes for free with a subscription you're already paying for greatly reduces the likelihood of competing libraries being purchased, no matter how much better they might be. Not many people buy Komplete just for the orchestral sounds, but if they subscribe to Komplete for $x/month, they're much more likely to just download NI's orchestral collection than purchase something else when the need arises.


----------



## jcrosby

Alex Fraser said:


> I've just observed my daughter having her online school music lesson. Thanks covid.
> The teacher literally has 30 kids all on some kind of online track/loop DAW thing, making hip-hop beats.


And Berklee now has courses on DJ-ing


----------



## Trensharo

darkogav said:


> That press article says nothing. NI are a huge company and they make great products. I am sure Kontakt will be around a very long time. I am pretty sure the next version of Kontakt will have resizable GUI.


Honestly, outside the ecosystem of libraries built on top of it, how does Kontakt actually compare to the other heavyweight samplers (namely HALion and Falcon)?


----------



## d.healey

Trensharo said:


> Honestly, if not for the ecosystem of libraries built on top of it, how does Kontakt actually compare to the other heavyweight samplers (namely HALion and Falcon)?


Isn't Halion only available inside Cubase?


----------



## Trensharo

d.healey said:


> Isn't Halion only available inside Cubase?


No. It's VST3 or Stand-Alone. All of Steinberg's virtual instruments are usable in other DAWs, except maybe the bundled Groove Agent 5 SE (not sure on that one).


----------



## darkogav

Trensharo said:


> Honestly, outside the ecosystem of libraries built on top of it, how does Kontakt actually compare to the other heavyweight samplers (namely HALion and Falcon)?


I don't have Falcon. So can't comment. Halion has a very steep learning curve. I also don't think there are as many 3rd party libraries for it compared to Kontakt.


----------



## Alatar

EvilDragon said:


> Kontakt is literally the most important product for NI, nobody should be worried about it.


If Kontakt is the most important product for NI, why does it feel so outdated?
Like if they stopped caring about it, for some reason. 
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think there was anything really new in quite a few years now?
Feels as if they only do the bare minimum to keep it alive.


----------



## d.healey

Alatar said:


> If Kontakt is the most important product for NI, why does it feel so outdated?
> Like if they stopped caring about it, for some reason.
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think there was anything really new in quite a few years now?
> Feels as if they only do the bare minimum to keep it alive.


The K6 release added a fair bit for developers, but not much for end users, and the stuff for developers wasn't revolutionary and was strangely implemented (who uses pngs with little red dots for fonts!)


----------



## Wunderhorn

darkogav said:


> I think it really depends on the per use cases. May not work for everyone but may work for some. I recall when Adobe switched to their cloud subscription model. A lot of complaining. But it sort of worked out well in the end. Unless you are a professional graphic designer and you use and work with Photoshop and Illustrator every day -- you don't really need access to the full blown version of the software on your desktop 24/7 365 days a year if you only going to use it once or twice a year for a few hours.


It did work out well? Really?
Let me tell you that many (professional) Adobe's users have lost a lot of faith. Each update is dreaded now because they introduce more bugs than anything good, because, well, there is no need, the cash keeps flowing automatically. The subscription (-only) model reduced users to docile cash cows, and with their cloud application your privacy is served up on a silver platter to be devoured.
A classic example of misuse of being an industry leader.

When companies grow too large, they lose touch with their customers. Decisions are made to please the Wall Street only. I feel Native Instruments is at this threshold. While I wish them well and success is a great thing, growth should not mutate into arrogance, and that is what happened in the Adobe case to the extreme.


----------



## nolotrippen

Wunderhorn said:


> It did work out well? Really?
> Let me tell you that many (professional) Adobe's users have lost a lot of faith. Each update is dreaded now because they introduce more bugs than anything good, because, well, there is no need, the cash keeps flowing automatically. The subscription (-only) model reduced users to docile cash cows, and with their cloud application your privacy is served up on a silver platter to be devoured.
> A classic example of misuse of being an industry leader.
> 
> When companies grow too large, they lose touch with their customers. Decisions are made to please the Wall Street only. I feel Native Instruments is at this threshold. While I wish them well and success is a great thing, growth should not mutate into arrogance, and that is what happened in the Adobe case to the extreme.


Adobe bought worthy competitors (Aldus, FrameMaker, etc.) and in short order destroyed the products from this vendors (can you say "monopoly"?). They've yet to fix some of the most inane tool functions in Photoshop or any other product (why must I tell it how to save a file every single time?). I'm still on CS5 and will never subscribe to any of their products as they haven't really improved them in years. I'll just keep a legacy Mac around when I need CS5.

If any music vendor goes the subscription route, it had better be closer to Composer Cloud than to Adobe.


----------



## Tim_Wells

nolotrippen said:


> Adobe bought worthy competitors (Aldus, FrameMaker, etc.) and in short order destroyed the products from this vendors (can you say "monopoly"?). They've yet to fix some of the most inane tool functions in Photoshop or any other product (why must I tell it how to save a file every single time?). I'm still on CS5 and will never subscribe to any of their products as they haven't really improved them in years. I'll just keep a legacy Mac around when I need CS5.
> 
> If any music vendor goes the subscription route, it had better be closer to Composer Cloud than to Adobe.


This kind of thing can happen when you get arrogant ill-informed management who thinks they're maximizing shareholder value. It reminds me of my experience with Oracle.

I doubt NI would go down that road. My guess is they WILL be more like EastWest, if they go the subscription route.


----------



## gsilbers

Tim_Wells said:


> This kind of thing can happen when you get arrogant ill-informed management who thinks their maximizing shareholder value. It reminds me of my experience with Oracle.
> 
> I doubt NI would go down that road. My guess is they WILL be more like EastWest, if they go the subscription route.


i thought the whole deal was that adobe lost to ebay a lawsuite claming users could sell second hand licenses of photoshop etc cs5. Adobe said... mm ok we lost... now we only do subscription from now on so that way our software cannot be resold in the second hand market. 
or somthing a long those lines. 
not they arent a holes of course... just that backstory.
anyway i now use affinity. miss a few features. 

for some reason a lot of poeple where cool w adobe going subsription and killed it in the stock market. 
or at least there wasnt a true competitor. apple final cut update realy pissed off poeple after FC7. avid was doing its avid evil crap. and premiere was a good alternartive. and no affinity or others yet for a good photo editing system. 
but yeah, more like EW is also my bet. mix of cloud and full license , plus the add on software+ hardware bundles they could do w more hardware.


----------



## Pier

EvilDragon said:


> Kontakt is literally the most important product for NI, nobody should be worried about it.


Really?

How come other products such as Reaktor, Massive, or even Guitar Rig have had more frequent and substantial updates during the past 10 years?


----------



## vitocorleone123

Pier said:


> Really?
> 
> How come other products such as Reaktor, Massive, or even Guitar Rig have had more frequent and substantial updates during the past 10 years?


Trapped by legacy code and limited resources is my guess - and overly cautious management.


----------



## Jon W

Pier said:


> Really?
> 
> How come other products such as Reaktor, Massive, or even Guitar Rig have had more frequent and substantial updates during the past 10 years?


I would think because Reaktor, Massive, and Guitar Rig to an extent are content generating engines. Kontakt is more of the bus that other people's content rides on. They probably have a rule in their department - a sign on the wall - that reads 'Don't break the bus.'


----------



## ScarletJerry

This is a significant idea, @Mike Greene and something for all of us to remember:

"I'm totally speculating, but I can't help but think of the iTunes store giving way to the Spotify model. The people with power in these relationships are the people delivering the content, not the people making it."

So true.

Scarlet Jerry


----------



## EvilDragon

d.healey said:


> (who uses pngs with little red dots for fonts!)



Kontakt itself does that internally, it's basically internal font implementation exposed to devs.



Pier said:


> Really?
> 
> How come other products such as Reaktor, Massive, or even Guitar Rig have had more frequent and substantial updates during the past 10 years?


Guitar Rig famously didn't have a substantial update in close to 10 years. GR6 was released, and offered what 3 new amps, some FX NI already had in their portfolio, and a reworked GUI, and some highly useful features (like looper, live mode, fullscreen mode) removed. Substantial update indeed 

Massive wasn't updated in a very very long time either (Massive X is a completely different codebase and is generally not considered as an update to the OG Massive). OG Massive is basically on life support, just like Absynth and FM8.

Reaktor had what... Blocks, which are repurposed ensembles really, no wild new features added to Reaktor (which would be stuff like multicore support, enhancements to Reaktor Core that are sorely required, etc.) on the whole.


Meanwhile in the past 10 years Kontakt had a constant stream of updates, new effects, new scripting functionality... please check your facts 



Jon W said:


> I would think because Reaktor, Massive, and Guitar Rig to an extent are content generating engines.


Kontakt is also a massive content generating engine - much more lucrative to NI than Reaktor, Massive and Guitar Rig combined!


----------



## Crowe

So much wild speculation.

As long as my Komplete 12 Ultimate CC and Maschine licenses stay where they are I really couldn't care less about couldbes.


----------



## MartinH.

darkogav said:


> I recall when Adobe switched to their cloud subscription model. A lot of complaining. But it sort of worked out well in the end. Unless you are a professional graphic designer and you use and work with Photoshop and Illustrator every day -- you don't really need access to the full blown version of the software on your desktop 24/7 365 days a year if you only going to use it once or twice a year for a few hours.


Creative Cloud was the worst thing to happen to the visual creative industry in the last 2 decades. It stunted the progress on developing these tools like no outside force could ever achieve. If you only need Photoshop twice a year, you don't need an up to date photoshop at all and would likely be fine with either an older version bought at a discount or one of the competitor programs like Affinity Photo etc.. 
Fuck Adobe and fuck every company switching to subscription-only! I'll die on that hill.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

MartinH. said:


> Creative Cloud was the worst thing to happen to the visual creative industry in the last 2 decades.


Talking about 2D.
For 3D we have Autodesk, that bought everything that somehow did something with 3D or compositing or animation or design.
But at least they don't háve that almost-monopoly Adobe has with Photoshop, Blender and Houdini still exist.
And Nuke. And Catia and ProE. And Zbrush. And...


----------



## easyrider

darkogav said:


> I think it really depends on the per use cases. May not work for everyone but may work for some. I recall when Adobe switched to their cloud subscription model. A lot of complaining. But it sort of worked out well in the end. Unless you are a professional graphic designer and you use and work with Photoshop and Illustrator every day -- you don't really need access to the full blown version of the software on your desktop 24/7 365 days a year if you only going to use it once or twice a year for a few hours.


Why is that a good thing?


----------



## MartinH.

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Talking about 2D.
> For 3D we have Autodesk, that bought everything that somehow did something with 3D or compositing or animation or design.
> But at least they don't háve that almost-monopoly Adobe has with Photoshop, Blender and Houdini still exist.
> And Nuke. And Catia and ProE. And Zbrush. And...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Adobe were the first to go sub only in that industry and paved the way for the likes of Autodesk and others to follow suit. Autodesk is at least as evil as Adobe, but like you said, their stranglehold on the industry isn't nearly as tight as they'd want it to be. I hope Blender replaces max and maya as standard in the games industry in a decade or two.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

MartinH. said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Adobe were the first to go sub only in that industry and paved the way for the likes of Autodesk and others to follow suit.


Yes, has been like that IIRC. Could have been other, minor companies, but that really started with Adobe.


----------



## d.healey

ReleaseCandidate said:


> But at least they don't háve that almost-monopoly Adobe has with Photoshop,


GIMP, Inkscape, Krita


----------



## Crowe

d.healey said:


> GIMP, Inkscape, Krita


I don't think any of those are comparable with photoshop. Affinity currently comes closest, but they've only been able to provide a full solution with Publisher since last year.

One should be reminded it's not just photoshop, but the combination of Photoshop, Illustrator and inDesign that that is critical for certain companies that ensured Adobe had a chokehold on the market.

Either way. My hatred for Adobe is pretty fiery so I will admit to being biased.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

d.healey said:


> GIMP, Inkscape, Krita


I'm talking about programs that are actually used by sufficiently many professional users. So the only real alternative now is Affinity Photo which still lacks many features Photoshop has for specific use-cases. 
Inkscape is a vector graphics program like Illustrator, not an alternative to Photoshop. 
Actually 2D graphics is one of the only graphics related area that is lacking professional software on Linux. Because Macs have been a good enough lowcost alternative to SGI's for that.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Shiirai said:


> Either way. My hatred for Adobe is pretty fiery so I will admit to being biased.


<Raises hand.>
Banned from all my machines since I abandoned Dreamweaver 15 years ago.

Last year I begrudgingly signed up for Adobe stock images, only to be hood-winked into a 12 month sub. Weirdly, they cancelled it without question after I complained via live chat - but only after I used a "script" proven to work by other disgruntled customers. Strange company.

On NI: Personally, I've moved away from them over the years, My use is basically Kontakt and an occasional dabble with KK for certain libraries. I do like my NI32 though.

I have nothing to offer on the buyout speculation, other than the new investors are unlikely to encourage anything as glorious as the THE KNOB ever again.


----------



## darkogav

easyrider said:


> Why is that a good thing?


Are you referring to why NI or Adobe? For NI, I sort of agree with Steve Slate and this ideas on licencing. I own a lot of effects and VST which I use occasionally. Most of the time they just sit on my DAW doing nothing. I am a heavy user of probably 10 to 20% of the music software on my system.









Plugin mogul Steven Slate: "You don’t need external DSP for tracking, you don’t need it for mixing, and it just doesn’t make sense to me"


Best of 2019: The Slate Digital boss on emulation, motivation and why the future of making music isn’t about audio engineering




www.musicradar.com





Re: Adobe. As I mentioned, the cloud model works really well for some users. There are a great many Adobe users who primary role is really an administrative support function. They need access to the Adobe applications a couple of times a year. Being able to assign licenses as needed and they always get access to the latest version has been handy and easy to work with and more cost effective than buying and upgrading every few years the full clown application which they really only use once in a blue moon. And having a dedicated shared graphics design station never really worked out too well in the real world.


----------



## d.healey

ReleaseCandidate said:


> I'm talking about programs that are actually used by sufficiently many professional users.


When I was at college I was trained to use Photoshop, I think it was version 6 back then. I used it all the way up to one of the CC releases, alongside I also used GIMP, I haven't touched Photoshop for years now. When I stopped using it they'd started adding "extra features" (bloat) that went beyond the purpose of a raster image editor, I assume that situation has only become worse. GIMP meanwhile has remained focused on its core purpose and I continue to use it.

Professionals use what the software companies wants them to use, what they were taught to use at college/uni, and what their bosses tell them to use. It has little bearing on the capability of the program. This is why pro-tools is an "industry standard" despite the fact that none of the users (the industry) have any say over what the program does, same is true for Kontakt and a whole bunch of other "standard" software controlled by a few large corporations rather than the industries they are used by.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

d.healey said:


> Professionals use what the software companies wants them to use, what they were taught to use at college/uni, and what their bosses tell them to use.


Well, there are reasons why Gimp didn't make it and Blender did (Blender is sufficiently awkward to use too). And that has to do with features 'the industry' needed (Gimp long had only 8bit color depth, no CMYK support for print, ...). 


d.healey said:


> It has little bearing on the capability of the program.


I never said otherwise.



d.healey said:


> This is why pro-tools is an "industry standard" despite the fact that none of the users (the industry) have any say over what the program does, same is true for Kontakt and a whole bunch of other "standard" software controlled by a few large corporations rather than the industries they are used by.


PT has the advantage of tight integration into Avid's ecosystem (yes, that's more than just Media Composer). But I don't like Avid too (same as Autodesk and Adobe)


----------



## d.healey

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Blender is sufficiently awkward to use too


I think the Blender devs like it that way


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

d.healey said:


> I think the Blender devs like it that way


No, they actually changed many of the default settings to be more like other 3D programs (3DS, Maya and Softimage) during the last decade. Also many users made their own changes (not themes) to the interface. 
Like 
https://creativedesigner3d.com/2018/02/20/blender-pro-improving-blenders-interface-for-2-8/








BforArtists Takes the Pain Out of Blender's Interface - Make:


Blender, the extremely powerful, open source, and absolutely free tool has a user interface that is cluttered, counter intuitive, and just plain horrid. Let's fix that.




makezine.com





But in the 3D realm the interfaces often have a, well, steep learning curve


----------



## easyrider

darkogav said:


> Are you referring to why NI or Adobe? For NI, I sort of agree with Steve Slate and this ideas on licencing. I own a lot of effects and VST which I use occasionally. Most of the time they just sit on my DAW doing nothing. I am a heavy user of probably 10 to 20% of the music software on my system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plugin mogul Steven Slate: "You don’t need external DSP for tracking, you don’t need it for mixing, and it just doesn’t make sense to me"
> 
> 
> Best of 2019: The Slate Digital boss on emulation, motivation and why the future of making music isn’t about audio engineering
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.musicradar.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Re: Adobe. As I mentioned, the cloud model works really well for some users. There are a great many Adobe users who primary role is really an administrative support function. They need access to the Adobe applications a couple of times a year. Being able to assign licenses as needed and they always get access to the latest version has been handy and easy to work with and more cost effective than buying and upgrading every few years the full clown application which they really only use once in a blue moon. And having a dedicated shared graphics design station never really worked out too well in the real world.


One thing you forget is....It’s the same for a subscription model...let’s say you sign up to the slate everything bundle and only use a handful of their plugins....once you stop paying all the plugins you have used cease to work meaning going back to old projects etc.. is broken...

His Netflix comparison is flawed....How many times do you watch Sons of Anarchy on Netflix? Once twice? You use plugins again and again...

Plus is ties you into one developer....you pay for slate but then you also pay the Plugin alliance Sub...then before you know it that’s $40 plus per month on hundreds of plugins you won’t ever use.... That’s $480 a year...over 5 years that’s $2,400....then your circumstances change....you lose your job....your income reduces you cancel your subs to tighten your belt and voila...all your hard work mixing and producing disappears in a flash...

You have invested $2,400 in nothing....and now in your hour of need being stuck at home with time on your hands you can’t even mix anymore... :/

If I buy a plugin and don’t find myself using it...at least I can transfer the license for minimal loss ( Developer dependant)

The sub model for plugin use is flawed...as it makes you a slave to the developer...it’s locks you in....I’d much rather buy say the Plugin Alliance Townhouse Compressor for $4 and just have it...and use it when I want...

As for the Adobe Subscription....For business that use it daily it makes Sense...but for the average daily user...the student....the hobby designer....it’s no so good.....having the ability to buy to use photoshop for a month is ok but these are smaller usage cases...

The only person that benefits from the subscription model is the developer....Izotope offer a disguised subscription....but you don’t have to upgrade to the lasteast version...

RX 7 still works fine...

As for NI going to the subscription model for their Komplete 13....who cares....but they should still allow people to buy it outright....

Just look how old some of the libs are in the collection...paying monthly for George Duke....I couldn’t think of anything worse...lol

I bought Komplete 12 in a bundle with a S61 MK2 keyboard and it Komplete 12 UCC cost me $500....this included Full Kontakt and all the VSTi etc.....

I haven’t upgrade to 13 as I don’t feel the urge...but at least I can still play all my instruments and use Kontakt on a daily basis for no monthly cost...


----------



## easyrider

I love the term industry standard....it’s total Bollocks....


----------



## el-bo

easyrider said:


> How many times do you watch Sons of Anarchy on Netflix? Once twice?


Once was painful enough


----------



## el-bo

easyrider said:


> Plus is ties you into one developer....you pay for slate but then you also pay the Plugin alliance Sub...then before you know it that’s $40 plus per month on hundreds of plugins you won’t ever use.... That’s $480 a year...over 5 years that’s $2,400....then your circumstances change....you lose your job....your income reduces you cancel your subs to tighten your belt and voila...all your hard work mixing and producing disappears in a flash...


This is true. I think this model only really works if you are able to get most, if not all, your needs met by one developer. If I had to choose one developer whose catalogue could take care of all my music-making needs, it'd be NI. I'd imagine that'd be tough for much of the VI-C crowd, but not for much of the rest of the computer-music world.


----------



## darkogav

easyrider said:


> One thing you forget is....It’s the same for a subscription model...let’s say you sign up to the slate everything bundle and only use a handful of their plugins....once you stop paying all the plugins you have used cease to work meaning going back to old projects etc.. is broken...
> 
> His Netflix comparison is flawed....How many times do you watch Sons of Anarchy on Netflix? Once twice? You use plugins again and again...
> 
> Plus is ties you into one developer....you pay for slate but then you also pay the Plugin alliance Sub...then before you know it that’s $40 plus per month on hundreds of plugins you won’t ever use.... That’s $480 a year...over 5 years that’s $2,400....then your circumstances change....you lose your job....your income reduces you cancel your subs to tighten your belt and voila...all your hard work mixing and producing disappears in a flash...
> 
> You have invested $2,400 in nothing....and now in your hour of need being stuck at home with time on your hands you can’t even mix anymore... :/
> 
> If I buy a plugin and don’t find myself using it...at least I can transfer the license for minimal loss ( Developer dependant)
> 
> The sub model for plugin use is flawed...as it makes you a slave to the developer...it’s locks you in....I’d much rather buy say the Plugin Alliance Townhouse Compressor for $4 and just have it...and use it when I want...
> 
> As for the Adobe Subscription....For business that use it daily it makes Sense...but for the average daily user...the student....the hobby designer....it’s no so good.....having the ability to buy to use photoshop for a month is ok but these are smaller usage cases...
> 
> The only person that benefits from the subscription model is the developer....Izotope offer a disguised subscription....but you don’t have to upgrade to the lasteast version...
> 
> RX 7 still works fine...
> 
> As for NI going to the subscription model for their Komplete 13....who cares....but they should still allow people to buy it outright....
> 
> Just look how old some of the libs are in the collection...paying monthly for George Duke....I couldn’t think of anything worse...lol
> 
> I bought Komplete 12 in a bundle with a S61 MK2 keyboard and it Komplete 12 UCC cost me $500....this included Full Kontakt and all the VSTi etc.....
> 
> I haven’t upgrade to 13 as I don’t feel the urge...but at least I can still play all my instruments and use Kontakt on a daily basis for no monthly cost...


I think we are going off into all sorts of tangents here. The Netflix model works because you are getting all original content for your subscription at a fraction of what a cable company wants to charge you per month for a bundle of specialty channels -- any of which you don't care for.

Anyways, I think the future of buying software is going to way of the Dodo bird. I think it will all go subscription.


----------



## easyrider

darkogav said:


> Anyways, I think the future of buying software is going to way of the Dodo bird. I think it will all go subscription.


How can it? When developers offer all different plugins? You think people are prepared to pay for multiple subs from different developers who most only use a handful of plugs from each one?

Not going to happen...I want the Zender Bender from Softube....I don’t want to buy into UAD....am I going to sub to Softube , even if I could , just for the Zender Bender? nope

And how many producers and engineers and bedroom mixers just buy into one eco system? Not many....

I couldn't think of anything worse than just using slate plugins.....and nothing else.....what about using soothe2 a company that makes just two plugins.....do I sub to them too?

You haven't thought your comment through....

So tell me how it would work?


----------



## nolotrippen

Pier said:


> Really?
> 
> How come other products such as Reaktor, Massive, or even Guitar Rig have had more frequent and substantial updates during the past 10 years?


Kontakt is the gateway for so many vendors and all of those vendors pay NI to use Kontakt. This is not to say updating NI Kontakt instruments wouldn't be a great idea (hint hint hint)…


----------



## nolotrippen

d.healey said:


> GIMP, Inkscape, Krita


Not industry standard and so far not quite as good as even legacy Photoshop. Tried them all.


----------



## Pier

Regarding the subscription model, honestly it all depends on the price.

I initially bought Elektrik Piano and Bandstand from NI many many years ago. Then I upgraded to Komplete 4 in 2006. Then to Komplete 6. Finally to Komplete 11. In total I must have paid some $2,000 to NI over the years which amounts to about $12 per month. And I don't even have the latest stuff (Massive X, Kontakt 6, Guitar Rig 6, etc).

I'm not a fan of NI, but getting everything they offer for $10 per month would be a pretty good deal *if* they kept releasing major updates and new stuff on a yearly basis.


----------



## easyrider

Pier said:


> Regarding the subscription model, honestly it all depends on the price.
> 
> I initially bought Elektrik Piano and Bandstand from NI many many years ago. Then I upgraded to Komplete 4 in 2006. Then to Komplete 6. Finally to Komplete 11. In total I must have paid some $2,000 to NI over the years which amounts to about $12 per month. And I don't even have the latest stuff (Massive X, Kontakt 6, Guitar Rig 6, etc).
> 
> I'm not a fan of NI, but getting everything they offer for $10 per month would be a pretty good deal *if* they kept releasing major updates and new stuff on a yearly basis.


Your missing the point.....stop paying things don’t work....


----------



## darkogav

Pier said:


> Regarding the subscription model, honestly it all depends on the price.
> 
> I initially bought Elektrik Piano and Bandstand from NI many many years ago. Then I upgraded to Komplete 4 in 2006. Then to Komplete 6. Finally to Komplete 11. In total I must have paid some $2,000 to NI over the years which amounts to about $12 per month. And I don't even have the latest stuff (Massive X, Kontakt 6, Guitar Rig 6, etc).
> 
> I'm not a fan of NI, but getting everything they offer for $10 per month would be a pretty good deal *if* they kept releasing major updates and new stuff on a yearly basis.


Yup. That's one example.


----------



## Pier

easyrider said:


> Your missing the point.....stop paying things don’t work....


You are missing the point.

Even you only update things (OS, DAW, VIs, etc) every 5-10 years, you will end up paying the same if not more. If I had paid exactly the same money to NI in a subscription, instead of chunks of money every couple of years, today I would have access to more stuff.

It's the same with Adobe. People complain about the subscription but before that I used to pay some $2000 every 2-3 years. Today I'm paying $600 per year. It's a win win situation. Software devs have a steady cash flow so they can plan their software development cycles better, and users end up paying less and always having the latest stuff.

Also, ignoring the subscription business model, things will break if you don't keep updating. You can thank Apple for that as it constantly introduces breaking changes and has changed how the industry works. Microsoft, for the most part, has always tried to keep old thing working on newer OS versions.


----------



## easyrider

Pier said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> Even you only update things (OS, DAW, VIs, etc) every 5-10 years, you will end up paying the same if not more. If I had paid exactly the same money to NI in a subscription, instead of chunks of money every couple of years, today I would have access to more stuff.



NI have never had a subscription....there is no mention of one or even how much it would be so this post is basically bollocks....


Pier said:


> It's the same with Adobe. People complain about the subscription but before that I used to pay some $2000 every 2-3 years. Today I'm paying $600 per year. It's a win win situation. Software devs have a steady cash flow so they can plan their software development cycles better, and users end up paying less and always having the latest stuff.


Why on earth were you paying $2000 every 2 years?

And all the latest stuff? Adobe have drip fed for years....there has been no ground breaking versions of photoshop for years....



Pier said:


> Also, ignoring the subscription business model, things will break if you don't keep updating. You can thank Apple for that as it constantly introduces breaking changes and has changed how the industry works. Microsoft, for the most part, has always tried to keep old thing working on newer OS versions.


Some developers offer free updates....Plugin Alliance, Presonus....Softube....countless others....

Waves even....I don’t need to update my v10 plugins to v12 as they work just fine....

You seem to have created your own reality in order to prove a point....


----------



## JEPA

Sorry.. I am laughing so hard I'm crying with this meme, wanted to share:







(I am neither against nor in favor of the subscription)


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

Pier said:


> It's the same with Adobe. People complain about the subscription but before that I used to pay some $2000 every 2-3 years. Today I'm paying $600 per year.


Well, if you look at Autodesk: now Maya and 3DS are 205 USD/month or 122 USD/month (for 3 years). That's at least 4,375 USD for 3 years. (yes, there is Maya LT)

The first big price-cuts happend around 2000:


> Maya Complete will be cut from US$7,500 to $1,999; Maya Unlimited, the full-featured version of the app (not available for Mac), goes from $16,000 to $6,999







__





Alias|Wavefront cuts $5,500 off Maya price







www.macworld.com




More or less Maya Unlimited stayed at 7,000 USD with upgrade prices of 1,250 USD. 





Autodesk Maya 8.5 Unlimited (First Look Review) | Cadalyst


Extraordinarily capable design and animation application boasts evolutionary changes.




www.cadalyst.com





You do the math. That's why most people take the all-in 3D package for 2,250 USD/year.





Media & Entertainment Collection | Animation And Rendering Software


Use the Autodesk Media & Entertainment Collection to build a flexible 3D animation pipeline with the power to create complex scenes and render beautiful final frames.




www.autodesk.com


----------



## Pier

easyrider said:


> NI have never had a subscription....there is no mention of one or even how much it would be so this post is basically bollocks....


You do realize we're talking about a hypothetical situation, right?



easyrider said:


> Why on earth were you paying $2000 every 2 years?


Because I wanted to have the latest features. At the time I was heavily into design, Flash, motion graphics, and video production so it made sense. I paid that with a single small project and multiplied that investment many times over.



easyrider said:


> And all the latest stuff? Adobe have drip fed for years....there has been no ground breaking versions of photoshop for years....


There are new features every year. If you compare the rate of new things with before CC it's not that far off.



easyrider said:


> Some developers offer free updates....Plugin Alliance, Presonus....Softube....countless others....
> 
> Waves even....I don’t need to update my v10 plugins to v12 as they work just fine....
> 
> You seem to have created your own reality in order to prove a point....


Nobody gives anything for free. If you think that's the case, you're living a fantasy regarding the business of selling software.

Also, other devs such as Apple or Presonus can afford to lose money on software because their main business is selling hardware.


----------



## Pier

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Well, if you look at Autodesk: now Maya and 3DS are 205 USD/month or 122 USD/month (for 3 years). That's at least 4,375 USD for 3 years. (yes, there is Maya LT)


Indeed, which is why my initial point is that it all depends on the price:


Pier said:


> Regarding the subscription model, honestly it all depends on the price.


If NI prices its all-in subscription at $10 it will provide great value. Not so much at $20 and much less at $30.


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

Pier said:


> Indeed, which is why my initial point is that it all depends on the price:


Of course, I just wanted to show an example that subscription does not always mean you pay less (depending on what you need). Wasn't meant as a contradiction


----------



## Crowe

I am a software developer. If I can, I will buy a piece of software and I will use that version until it stops working.

'The newest functionality' or 'stability updates' are generally a lie. The 'newest features' are a factor of diminishing returns and any software company worth their salt *knows* this. This is why Adobe went for the subscription model and is getting away with minimal updates.

'Update' mind tricks, the sunk cost fallacy and brand identity make it work. Chasing after the next 'big feature' that makes you pay the cost of admission many times over. I wish I'd never gotten a degree in marketing, this shit just makes me nauseous now.


----------



## easyrider

Shiirai said:


> I am a software developer. If I can, I will buy a piece of software and I will use that version until it stops working.
> 
> 'The newest functionality' or 'stability updates' are generally a lie. The 'newest features' are a factor of diminishing returns and any software company worth their salt *knows* this. This is why Adobe went for the subscription model and is getting away with minimal updates.
> 
> 'Update' mind tricks, the sunk cost fallacy and brand identity make it work. Chasing after the next 'big feature' that makes you pay the cost of admission many times over. I wish I'd never gotten a degree in marketing, this shit just makes me nauseous now.


That’s one of the reasons I moved to Studio one....Meaningful updates and features that are free....

Cockos Reaper is another software developer that I respect.

Unlike Adobe, Avid, Steinberg....I won’t touch these with a barge pole....


----------



## davidanthony

Pier said:


> It's the same with Adobe. People complain about the subscription but before that I used to pay some $2000 every 2-3 years. Today I'm paying $600 per year.


I paid ~$300 for the CS6 design suite when I was a student in 2014. Still using it today! 

Subscriptions only represent good value for extreme power users. Everyone else subsidizes them.


----------



## Crowe

easyrider said:


> That’s one of the reasons I moved to Studio one....Meaningful updates and features that are free....
> 
> Cockos Reaper is another software developer that I respect.
> 
> Unlike Adobe, Avid, Steinberg....I won’t touch these with a barge pole....



I bought Cubase 10.5 Pro and it turns out it's a friggin' mess. I downgraded to 9.5 and I'm in love and will probably remain so until it becomes unusable. That's my point. 9.5 is amazing, every version after that seems to be worse and the latest update doesn't fix the issues I have with it.

I've no idea what 'new features' are in the latest version, but I'm 100% sure I don't need them. I've been managing fine without them, anyway. I understand that sucks for Steinberg, but they need to f***ing fix their software before bloating it with 'new features'. Of course, there's a lot of people horny for number increments and needless features which is how we got to this point.

If they'd have a subscription model, the problem would be even worse and there's exactly where we are with Adobe.


----------



## Wunderhorn

Shiirai said:


> I don't think any of those are comparable with photoshop. Affinity currently comes closest, but they've only been able to provide a full solution with Publisher since last year.
> 
> One should be reminded it's not just photoshop, but the combination of Photoshop, Illustrator and inDesign that that is critical for certain companies that ensured Adobe had a chokehold on the market.
> 
> Either way. My hatred for Adobe is pretty fiery so I will admit to being biased.


Affinity is the best alternative so far (I bought their products to support them) - but NONE of the alternatives are viable when you need to send your data to publishers and printers. This is exactly the monopoly that Adobe is taking advantage of in their obscene way.
The merger of Macromedia and Adobe was a cartel that should have never been allowed.

Behind the scenes I also suspect that Adobe is more and more using the illustration/design software as a decoy. Their main operation is now data harvesting because spying people out with the cloud app is just too much fun. I had communication emails from US Bank that tried to call home to... guess what... Adobe servers!


----------



## Pier

davidanthony said:


> I paid ~$300 for the CS6 design suite when I was a student in 2014. Still using it today!
> 
> Subscriptions only represent good value for extreme power users. Everyone else subsidizes them.


You're agreeing with me even if you haven't realized it yet.

Subscriptions are not for casual users, and btw "power users" are really the majority of professional users.

Also, CS6 is not compatible with Windows 10 or the latest version of macOS.


----------



## easyrider

Pier said:


> You're agreeing with me even if you haven't realized it yet.
> 
> Subscriptions are not for casual users, and btw "power users" are really the majority of professional users.
> 
> Also, CS6 is not compatible with Windows 10 or the latest version of macOS.


CS6 runs on Windows 10....this is common knowledge.


----------



## rnb_2

Nice to see that "never get into an argument about software subscriptions" still holds true. Those that hate them aren't going to change their minds, no matter how much those who either support them or grudgingly tolerate them might wish they would. Better to argue about something less divisive, like US politics...


----------



## darkogav

easyrider said:


> CS6 runs on Windows 10....this is common knowledge.


This is a music form so lets pull it back to music.

But i just had a quick look. It looks like CS6 is EOL and has been since 2017. If you chose to use it because it seems to work on W10 and you don't like cloud or subscription services -- that's your choice, but it really makes no sense to encourage other people to use EOL products because they seem to work okay.


----------



## easyrider

darkogav said:


> This is a music form so lets pull it back to music.
> 
> But i just had a quick look. It looks like CS6 is EOL and has been since 2017. If you chose to use it because it seems to work on W10 and you don't like cloud or subscription services -- that's your choice, but it really makes no sense to encourage other people to use EOL products because they seem to work okay.


I’m not encouraging anyone...I’m saying CS6 runs on Windows 10....


----------



## Crowe

I'll take this one:

I hereby encourage people to use CS6 instead Cloud-based Adobe products. End-of-Life is nonsense at best. There's airport terminals still using Windows 98. I still vividly remember how Adobe claimed how the use of older versions of their software would be a _punishable offense._

If it works, it works, whether it's supported or not. They treat their current software like crap, so I see very little difference either way.

Of course, all of this is very much colored by the fiery vision I see before me when the name Adobe is mentioned, so take this with a grain of sulfur

Know what, I don't care and this is pointless. Back to NI.

Original Massive is cool, just got around to using it. I couldn't care less what happens in the next few years, I have enough stuff to last me for the next 5.


----------



## cloudbuster

I'm using CS6 and Lightroom 5.? that still works fine with my camera on Win8.1 and if Adobe wants any more of my money they can have a talk with my family after I'm gone because they won't get a single € from my hands as long as I'm still around.


----------



## YaniDee

I have no qualms about using older versions of programs, and I would never pay for a subscription service. The only thing I worry about is reinstalling stuff on a new computer (many years down the road) and the license servers are gone....


----------



## davidanthony

Pier said:


> You're agreeing with me even if you haven't realized it yet.


I agree that a subscription is a good idea for someone like you, and I said as much. But it's a terrible value proposition for me. Just trying to get you to see a perspective other than your own!



Pier said:


> Subscriptions are not for casual users, and btw "power users" are really the majority of professional users.


Most of the professionals I know and work with are not using the latest version of any software they're running. The opposite, actually. 



Pier said:


> Also, CS6 is not compatible with Windows 10 or the latest version of macOS.


Most of the professionals I know aren't running the latest versions of their OSes, either. Unless you're working in CPU/GPU intensive environments (which I don't think is the majority of professionals across all fields that use these products) there really isn't any need to be current.

To bring this back to music, an NI subscription would make no sense for me, because I'd be paying for a ton of stuff I don't need. I have a Maschine Studio and I use Kontakt and Battery a lot. That's it. Paying for some kind of Komplete subscription would be a complete waste as I don't consider anything NI makes outside of those things to be superior to alternatives I already have, or I just flat out don't need them.


----------



## germancomponist

Do u remember EMU? This Company produced the most important hardware samplers in the past, and what happened?


----------



## Virtuoso

The cloud subscription model has worked EXTREMELY well for Adobe, with the share price going up almost 1,000% since Creative Cloud was launched.






2020 figures - Gross profit 86%, Net profit 41%, Growth 29%.

There's no question it was the right move financially for the company. Many users may feel differently, but the growth and profitability show that it continues to be well adopted.

The full Creative Suite used to cost $2500 and wasn't even cross-platform, so a single user had to pay the full amount TWICE if you wanted to use it on a Mac and a PC. Add another $1000 for Adobe Font Folio. Now it's $53/month - no brainer. (Hint: tell customer service you're going to cancel and they will offer it for $29.99.)

Will the same approach pay off for NI? No. Their products are shit and the company has been very badly mismanaged. Development has been stagnant for years to the point where they are actively driving away third party developers. They are in a saturated market and in almost every case there are far better alternatives to NI's own libraries. The best we can hope for as users is that they sell Kontakt off to someone with the vision and ability to turn it around.


----------



## Technostica

germancomponist said:


> Do u remember EMU?


I do remember Emu but Michael Parkinson wishes he didn’t.


----------



## darkogav

YaniDee said:


> I have no qualms about using older versions of programs, and I would never pay for a subscription service. The only thing I worry about is reinstalling stuff on a new computer (many years down the road) and the license servers are gone....


which i can guarantee you will happen at some point.


----------



## JEPA

There was recently a thread here in VI-Control asking what do you use from Komplete, most answers were Kontakt and one to two more things... I believe there are a lot of other musicians outside giving an extended use for NI products..


----------



## ReleaseCandidate

Reason just launched it's subscription service, Reason+, for 20 EUR /month


> What does Reason+ give me?​You get access to Reason (standalone and VST/AU/AAX plugin) and its collection of over 70 legendary instruments and effects. This means you'll have access to every synth, sampler, effect and utility that we have ever made—and anything we make in the future, too.
> 
> You'll also get access to hundreds of sound packs, available through the Reason+ companion app.







__





Reason Studios - The most creative music production bundle


Reason is an always-expanding rack of creative Instruments, Effects and Players. Mind-blowing sounds & Fresh Sound packs Weekly!




www.reasonstudios.com


----------



## easyrider

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Reason just launched it's subscription service, Reason+, for 20 EUR /month
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reason Studios - The most creative music production bundle
> 
> 
> Reason is an always-expanding rack of creative Instruments, Effects and Players. Mind-blowing sounds & Fresh Sound packs Weekly!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reasonstudios.com


Buy it





Reason 12


A new look, a new sampler and a whole new way of dialing in your sound, Reason 12 is all about leveling up the creative potential at the heart of your music-making experience. Make music your way - plugged in or standalone Reason’s Rack of legendary synths, instruments, and effects can now be...




www.reasonstudios.com





£309

12 months Subscription

£239

The only winner in the sub model is the Developer.


----------



## darkogav

easyrider said:


> Buy it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reason 12
> 
> 
> A new look, a new sampler and a whole new way of dialing in your sound, Reason 12 is all about leveling up the creative potential at the heart of your music-making experience. Make music your way - plugged in or standalone Reason’s Rack of legendary synths, instruments, and effects can now be...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reasonstudios.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> £309
> 
> 12 months Subscription
> 
> £239
> 
> The only winner in the sub model is the Developer.


Not the same deal.

With Reason+ you get everything.

"Reason (standalone and VST/AU/AAX plugin) and its collection of over 70 legendary instruments and effects"






Buy Reason | Reason | Reason Studios


Reason Studios has all the tools you need for creative music production, recording, sequencing and mixing. Use Reason as a plugin with your favorite DAW, in standalone or on the go with our mobile apps.




www.reasonstudios.com


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## ReleaseCandidate

darkogav said:


> Not the same deal.
> 
> With Reason+ you get everything.


That's the problem. You normally don't want everything or the 'biggest' version of the program and wouldn't pay for it. For example you get weekly soundpacks with Reason+.


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## Alex Fraser

ReleaseCandidate said:


> Reason just launched it's subscription service, Reason+, for 20 EUR /month


Urrgh. Whatever happened to just having the stuff you need? This sort of "all-in-everything-ever-freesoundseveryday" package (for a monthly fee!) is less music making, and more music "grazing." I'm not a fan.

I paid £160 for Logic Pro in 2013 with free updates and features at no cost ever since. Clearly I'm old fashioned. I'll be over here in the corner, with my pipe and slippers. Gerrof my lawn etc etc

Clearly OT though, so time to go and moan in the other thread.


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## easyrider

darkogav said:


> Not the same deal.
> 
> With Reason+ you get everything.
> 
> "Reason (standalone and VST/AU/AAX plugin) and its collection of over 70 legendary instruments and effects"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Buy Reason | Reason | Reason Studios
> 
> 
> Reason Studios has all the tools you need for creative music production, recording, sequencing and mixing. Use Reason as a plugin with your favorite DAW, in standalone or on the go with our mobile apps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reasonstudios.com


Until you stop paying then You get nothing....


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## darkogav

easyrider said:


> Until you stop paying then You get nothing....


yes. thats how subscription works. the same model as spotify and netflix. 

it's also possible this model might also offer tax benefits for people writing off software as a business expense.


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## easyrider

darkogav said:


> yes. thats how subscription works. the same model as spotify and netflix.
> 
> it's also possible this model might also offer tax benefits for people writing off software as a business expense.


Spotify offers a free service with ads.....

Netflix is 5.99 per month....

The problem with DAW subs is....you’re trapped....there are consequences.....mcub bigger than not be able to watch the latest TV show that are churned out crap anyway....


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## d.healey

darkogav said:


> yes. thats how subscription works. the same model as spotify and netflix.


Spotfiy and Netflix are a completely different type of service. They are not tools you use to do a job, they are entertainment.

If you use a plugin in a project you need some level of confidence that in the future you can go back to that project and still have access to the plugin. This is never true of a subscription (DRM) service that has the ability to cut you off remotely (whether you stop paying or not).


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## darkogav

d.healey said:


> Spotfiy and Netflix are a completely different type of service. They are not tools you use to do a job, they are entertainment.
> 
> If you use a plugin in a project you need some level of confidence that in the future you can go back to that project and still have access to the plugin. This is never true of a subscription (DRM) service that has the ability to cut you off remotely (whether you stop paying or not).


True. But how many times have you actually had to do that? How many times do you think an average Reason user opens archival projects from Reason 2.x ?

All the old work I did a long time ago is on CDs or DATs. It's the raw wave files. The studios where that was done are long gone. I doubt they even have the same consoles anymore.


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## Tim_Wells

A music software company like NI has a much smaller, more active, and LOUDER user base than some of the other companies being discussed. They can't afford to piss-off a large segment of those users and developers. 

If they do implement a subscription model, I can't imagine that it would anything other addendment to the existing purchase model. Just something to entice certain users who can't afford the high purchase costs. Plus, there may be some pros who prefer a subscription.

To do otherwise would be fool-hardy (imo).


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## Alex Fraser

Tim_Wells said:


> A music software company like NI has a much smaller, more active, and LOUDER user base than some of the other companies being discussed. They can't afford to piss-off a large segment of those users and developers.
> 
> If they do implement a subscription model, I can't imagine that it would anything other addendment to the existing purchase model. Just something to entice certain users who can't afford the high purchase costs. Plus, there may be some pros who prefer a subscription.
> 
> To do otherwise would be fool-hardy (imo).


Agreed. I guess the million dollar question is - assuming you could still buy separate products - would the sub replace Komplete?


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## darkogav

Tim_Wells said:


> A music software company like NI has a much smaller, more active, and LOUDER user base than some of the other companies being discussed. They can't afford to piss-off a large segment of those users and developers.
> 
> If they do implement a subscription model, I can't imagine that it would anything other addendment to the existing purchase model. Just something to entice certain users who can't afford the high purchase costs. Plus, there may be some pros who prefer a subscription.
> 
> To do otherwise would be fool-hardy (imo).


NI Komplete is a tricky product because it contains so much old stuff.

You have three sets of users. The new ones who have nothing. For them its a big chuck of change to dip into the bundle but when they do -- they get it all.

The ones that already invested in Komplete and upgrade as each new version gets released.

And then you have the ones that have the bundle and just sit on the sidelines waiting until something really good comes along and then upgrade. So you have all these products that are being released in the interim that you as a existing customer know fully well you will get them included when you upgrade but aren't using them because you are waiting for a good reason to upgrade.

So in my case, I have no great big desire to start using things like Arkhis or Pharlight as I have a lot of other things I have to work with. They are interesting and look and sound great but I use other products in the bundle that are more important to me. But I am not going to go out and buy them individually and deal with the hassle of selling on KVR. So I will sit and wait until Massive XI or Kontakt 7 gets released before I decide to dish out for the upgrade.

If the product was on a $20 subscription -- I could just jump in and start using Arkhis if I wanted to now. The sit and wait game goes away. I get to start using the product sooner and NI start getting their money sooner.


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## MartinH.

Virtuoso said:


> There's no question it was the right move financially for the company. Many users may feel differently, but the growth and profitability show that it continues to be well adopted.


Exploitation of the workforce is also very profitable and "well adopted" in too many industries...


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## Trensharo

darkogav said:


> I don't have Falcon. So can't comment. Halion has a very steep learning curve. I also don't think there are as many 3rd party libraries for it compared to Kontakt.


Well, that went straight over your head...


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## Trensharo

easyrider said:


> Spotify offers a free service with ads.....
> 
> Netflix is 5.99 per month....
> 
> The problem with DAW subs is....you’re trapped....there are consequences.....mcub bigger than not be able to watch the latest TV show that are churned out crap anyway....


Render stems and move on. What trap?


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## rnb_2

MartinH. said:


> Exploitation of the workforce is also very profitable and "well adopted" in too many industries...





easyrider said:


> Buy it - £309
> 
> 12 months Subscription - £239
> 
> The only winner in the sub model is the Developer.


I hate to point this out, but these two strongly-held opinions against software subscriptions are actually arguing against each other.

Try to remember that your inability to get software for as-close-to-free-as-possible does not somehow make you more exploited by The System than developers who write that software and want to make a decent living, especially when making music is only a hobby you pursue for pleasure.

One of the upsides of software subscriptions is that they even out revenue flow so that companies can hire as many developers as they realistically, predictably need - because there aren't huge revenue swings every 18 months - and thus don't need to push a too-small workforce to the point of exhaustion to hit a ship date for a milestone release. I don't want to subscribe to every piece of software I use any more than anybody else, but I also don't believe for a second that I have a greater call on sympathy for the world's unwillingness to provide for my every want than any given software developer (or the companies that employ them in large numbers).


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## Kevinside

I admit, i still going into the past of my work, which includes Logic 4 and 5 Projects and Protools TDM 5 archives...

Its so depressing... How could all the software companies live without a subscription model in the first place...damm


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## easyrider

Trensharo said:


> Render stems and move on. What trap?


I like to go back to old projects and remix them .


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