# Cineorch - First Peek



## mikebarry (Dec 19, 2010)

The "Low Chords" patch is the moniest/megatime saver gigabit son

Customer friendly price two digits.


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## PasiP (Dec 19, 2010)

F*&#! Two digits. I'm so buying this. Thanks for making my life a lot easier. I'm kinda music illiterate so this helps a lot.

Is there going to be a notation view also like in HWW? I think that would be great to have so people can learn how to write that chord etc.

Thank you so much for this!

I'm a happy camper now..haha :mrgreen:


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## Lex (Dec 19, 2010)

Sweet!
when?



alex


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 19, 2010)

God that sounds nice! It's a flavour of Symphobia for under a hundred bucks!

I was thinking that, as a Symphobia owner I probably wouldn't have too much call for it, but then I heard the low chords.... hmmmm.....

Just to check, you mentioned "legato" a few times, I presume you mean sustain for the octaves patch and single note triggering for the other two?


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## Justus (Dec 19, 2010)

That will be my first Cinesamples purchase!
Love the fact that you recorded different bass notes as well.


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## jamwerks (Dec 19, 2010)

Great sounding, will buy! =o


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## manyfingers (Dec 19, 2010)

outstanding! when's the release date?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 19, 2010)

Outstanding time saver. Nice sound.Should match up nicely with HWW runs too!


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## twinsinmind (Dec 19, 2010)

estimated release?


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## damstraversaz (Dec 19, 2010)

totally amazing ! this can be a very useful live tool and a friendly compagnon of some others libraries like lass little for exemple . This will be for sure my first cinesample purchase. congratulations !

damien


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## EwigWanderer (Dec 19, 2010)

IvanP @ 12.19.2010 said:


> Great sound
> 
> I would really appreciate some orchestration guidelines about how's been set up...it wouldnt make sense to save time when mockuping just to lose it after during "reverse engineering" for real life "self" orchestration, specially during tight deadlines



+1 !!


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## schatzus (Dec 19, 2010)

When and how much?


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## Hannesdm (Dec 19, 2010)

Wow, sounds great! Will certainly buy this one!

+1 on a notation like HWW!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 19, 2010)

I want to give you $$$ for this... when??!!! Sounds fantastic, and very practical


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## midphase (Dec 19, 2010)

Whatever Ned just said...+1 for me. Bonus if you can make it available before my latest score is due (Jan. 15).


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## Cinesamples (Dec 19, 2010)

Hi all, 

We're aiming to have the library up in the next couple of days. Just putting it on the server, website stuff... all that jazz.

CineOrch does not currently have a notation view, but we can offer PDF's of the orchestral scores if that is helpful? Once you get the pattern we used, the orchestration is pretty straightforward.

Standby!


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## PasiP (Dec 19, 2010)

That would be great. Thanks Mikes!


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## IvanP (Dec 19, 2010)

CineSamples @ Sun Dec 19 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> We're aiming to have the library up in the next couple of days. Just putting it on the server, website stuff... all that jazz.
> 
> ...



That would be just great....

If it's not too much asking, could we also have the same on the HWW? (at least the fx, for example)

Thks!

Ivan


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## Hannesdm (Dec 19, 2010)

Btw Mike, you should clean your apple keyboard! :twisted:


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## germancomponist (Dec 19, 2010)

I think, the idea to do this library is very cool and clever!


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## zvenx (Dec 19, 2010)

sounds great... yep I will be getting this one..
you guys have been super busy... keep going 
rsp


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 19, 2010)

Looks very cool! I can see how this could be a good time saver indeed. But I wonder how easy it would be to switch to those sounds for tutti passages, and then switch back to your standard orchestral library? 

I dont know if its possible to get a "one chord patch" as a demo or something, but it would be cool to test it in our studio to see how well we can get it to match our current templates.


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## mikebarry (Dec 19, 2010)

Just for the record the Low Chords Patch + Deep Percussion Beds + The Solo Boy from Voxos is almost unfair timesaver.


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 19, 2010)

JT3_Jon @ Sun Dec 19 said:


> Looks very cool! I can see how this could be a good time saver indeed. But I wonder how easy it would be to switch to those sounds for tutti passages, and then switch back to your standard orchestral library?
> 
> I dont know if its possible to get a "one chord patch" as a demo or something, but it would be cool to test it in our studio to see how well we can get it to match our current templates.



I would think it won't be a problem. I remember years back using libs like orchestral colors mixed in with old roland samples and it worked great. In fact the mix still holds up.


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## dinerdog (Dec 19, 2010)

I personally would buy ANY instrument (or patch) named "Unfair Timesaver". =o

ps - Mike, keep those ideas & combis coming. lol


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## mikebarry (Dec 19, 2010)

One other thing I mentioned is that we really used some damn sneaky trickery on this library and especially the Low Chords Patch. For example working out the voicings from chord to chord to avoid that annoying block transposing sound took a long while and great deal of concentration. We ended up using variations on common tone voicings.

So for example going from a C Major to Eminor 6/4 the E would be held in common on the horns top voice. So its a very natural sound, and the way Pete Anthony or other top orchestrators would do it!


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 19, 2010)

That's basic Voice Leading and having players not having to attack the same note.


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## Matthias King (Dec 19, 2010)

This sounds freakin amazing!


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## mikebarry (Dec 19, 2010)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Dec 19 said:


> That's basic Voice Leading and having players not having to attack the same note.



I think we are probably agreeing - its advanced vioce leading really using the LOTR as the common recipe - the triadic horns. It is just tricky with instrument ranges, sometimes they do stay on the same note, some times they move up/down up to a third, however you don't want them ever moving a forth/fifth - which really prohibited just blatant copy and pasting. Anyway this is a new thing we tried and we will probably do some more types of ideas like this, its just damn expensive to assemble a full orchestra of 72 players!

Cheers for voice leading - one of the most important skills to know.


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## Ashermusic (Dec 19, 2010)

While it does sounds great, I have such mixed feelings about this kind of product. I am not criticizing the developers of them as there is a market for them and several including the Mikes are doing a great job.

Actually, this is grounds fro its own topic which I will start. There might be a column for me in it.


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## KingIdiot (Dec 19, 2010)

man am I so glad I'm back into acoustic/live music.

I imagine every youtube vid in the world is going to have access to amazing sounding orchestral textures with minimal education. It's gonna be like when the arpeggiator came out! 

(tongue fully in cheek here guys)


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## Cinesamples (Dec 19, 2010)

*Re: Cineorch Released!*

Hi folks, 

Now available: http://cinesamples.com/products/cineorch/

$99 until New Years day!

Happy Holidays y'all!


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## eschroder (Dec 19, 2010)

Snap, you guys are quick! Thanks


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## rJames (Dec 19, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun Dec 19 said:


> While it does sounds great, I have such mixed feelings about this kind of product. I am not criticizing the developers of them as there is a market for them and several including the Mikes are doing a great job.
> 
> Actually, this is grounds fro its own topic which I will start. There might be a column for me in it.


Yeah, it's the evolution of the business...but, you just put 1000 composers out of business and made composers out of 100 music supervisors.

You guys are changing the paradigm. Really good ideas for products!


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## midphase (Dec 19, 2010)

Will purchase tomorrow first thing in the am. Thank you....awesome...once again you create really useful products at the right price points...I wish some other developers took your lead what it comes to these types of products!


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## shakuman (Dec 19, 2010)

Congrats Mike it sounds look great and useful =o 

Shakuman.


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## manyfingers (Dec 20, 2010)

downloading right now! can't wait to have a play. totally agree that the price makes this a total no brainer purchase!


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## tslesicki (Dec 20, 2010)

More demos please!


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## Udo (Dec 20, 2010)

Does it use NCW Compression?

What's the download file size?


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Dec 20, 2010)

Download size is approx. 600MB. Getting it right now!


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## manyfingers (Dec 20, 2010)

playing around with it now! sounds amazing! i'm sure getting a cpu hit though..getting a few glitches and i've only get the one instance of K4 open!!


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## PasiP (Dec 20, 2010)

Just ordered and I'm downloading it right now. The price was 121$ incl. VAT which kinda surprised me. I didn't see any statement on the website that the prices were not including VAT..

I remember it was the other way around before? :?


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## manyfingers (Dec 20, 2010)

PasiP @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> Just ordered and I'm downloading it right now. The price was 121$ incl. VAT which kinda surprised me. I didn't see any statement on the website that the prices were not including VAT..
> 
> I remember it was the other way around before? :?



caught me out too!


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## manyfingers (Dec 20, 2010)

manyfingers @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> playing around with it now! sounds amazing! i'm sure getting a cpu hit though..getting a few glitches and i've only get the one instance of K4 open!!



by the way..is anyway else noticing the cpu hit?

or is it my computer spec?

imac 2.4 Ghz 4gb ram 

cheers,

chris


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## twinsinmind (Dec 20, 2010)

BOUGHT: thank you for another fine release


Damn my wife will kill me....... voxos, crash and orchestra in one week :S

yea and so its actually not a 2 digit price :d but a 3


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## Pedro Camacho (Dec 20, 2010)

Will you provide in the manual a sheet with how you distributed the voices in the orchestra? (Like what note is the bassoon, or clarinet playing)?


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## EwigWanderer (Dec 20, 2010)

PasiP @ 12.20.2010 said:


> Just ordered and I'm downloading it right now. The price was 121$ incl. VAT which kinda surprised me. I didn't see any statement on the website that the prices were not including VAT..
> 
> I remember it was the other way around before? :?



Yes it was other way around before..damn!

But still I'll order it after I get out of work..


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## bluejay (Dec 20, 2010)

Looks great! Bought and added to the collection.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 20, 2010)

Kaching! One more sale, thanks guys!


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## Ranietz (Dec 20, 2010)

To bad I only have Kontakt 3.5 and not Kontakt 4. :(


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## zvenx (Dec 20, 2010)

I am curious to know why you never upgraded. Especially in the last november 50% off sale....

rsp


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## Hannesdm (Dec 20, 2010)

manyfingers @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> PasiP @ Mon Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Just ordered and I'm downloading it right now. The price was 121$ incl. VAT which kinda surprised me. I didn't see any statement on the website that the prices were not including VAT..
> ...



I'd like to know that one too! I never had to pay VAT for downloads (I have a VAT number).

I remember paying VAT for ochestral string runs, but they refunded it back.


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## Ranietz (Dec 20, 2010)

zvenx @ Mon 20 Dec said:


> I am curious to know why you never upgraded. Especially in the last november 50% off sale....
> 
> rsp



Music is just a hobby for me and I've been busy with other things the last 6 months. I have Komplete 5 at the moment and I think it's to expensive to upgrade to Komplete 7 just to get Kontakt 4 (which is the only new thing I really want). I could of course skip the Komplete route and just get Kontakt 4, but as I said, this is just a hobby for me and I don't buy much music stuff anymore.


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## DKeenum (Dec 20, 2010)

Amazing product guys!


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## zvenx (Dec 20, 2010)

ok fair enough..But I hope you do understand why some developers will only develop for the version that has been out for over a year, and why some users, like me, don't appreciate why some developers insist on making their libraries K3.5/K4 which doesn't allow it to take advantage of all that K4 offers.
rsp


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## Ranietz (Dec 20, 2010)

zvenx @ Mon 20 Dec said:


> ok fair enough..But I hope you do understand why some developers will only develop for the version that has been out for over a year, and why some users, like me, don't appreciate why some developers insist on making their libraries K3.5/K4 which doesn't allow it to take advantage of all that K4 offers.
> rsp



Don't worry. I fully understand.


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## zvenx (Dec 20, 2010)

Kool.... I don't think K6 was a great update, except for Kontakt 4 and the new stuff in Guitar Rig 4.......but let me not further derail this thread......hopefully I will buy this library after xmas when I have gotten over the shock of the expense of xmas 
rsp


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## ptrickf (Dec 20, 2010)

How do you reckon these might sound mixed with other libraries? For eg. EWQLSO Gold or Kirk Hunter Emerald. 

Thanks for your thoughts, P.


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## drpenguen (Dec 20, 2010)

hehe just got it, you should make iphone version, it would be great


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## Ed (Dec 20, 2010)

Hannesdm @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> manyfingers @ Mon Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > PasiP @ Mon Dec 20 said:
> ...



I asked about it this for DOW2 and CS said it was normal... so what we are seeing here is that it is not normal, yes?


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 20, 2010)

It's a US / EU thing. Downloads bought from the EU are subject to VAT, in the US they are not.


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## Ed (Dec 20, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> It's a US / EU thing. Downloads bought from the EU are subject to VAT, in the US they are not.



I guess I've been getting a good deal for too long


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## dcoscina (Dec 20, 2010)

I also bought it for $99 during the holiday sale. While I also don't normally approve of this kind of product, I think it can be very effective if used sparingly within an original composition. The YouTube demo sold me (although the playing on it is a little sloppy). 

Between this and the VSL Exploration Kit that arrived in the mail today, I'm gonna have a very Merry Christmas! he he he


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 20, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> The YouTube demo sold me (although the playing on it is a little sloppy).



Made me feel right at home!


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## Ed (Dec 20, 2010)

Are there many/any round robins on the staccs?


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## gregjazz (Dec 20, 2010)

manyfingers @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> playing around with it now! sounds amazing! i'm sure getting a cpu hit though..getting a few glitches and i've only get the one instance of K4 open!!



That's strange--usually CineOrch usually only uses 1-3% CPU for me, which is especially good considering the real-time morphing between dynamics and other features. The tutti octaves patch can take a little more CPU, but that's because it has additional dynamic layers to morph between in the case of the staccatos.

Try increasing your latency or DFD settings to see if that improves the CPU performance.


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## stonzthro (Dec 20, 2010)

I just thought you were really into random clusters


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## c0mp0ser (Dec 20, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> Are there many/any round robins on the staccs?


Up to 4RR per dynamic for the Stacc. Some are only 2RR, some are 4RR.
We had to filter out some bad takes here and there

But you can throw those bad takes back in with the "Sloppy RR" button. Kind of a nice effect to add some realism.


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## Pzy-Clone (Dec 20, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Mon Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > It's a US / EU thing. Downloads bought from the EU are subject to VAT, in the US they are not.
> ...



HA! Lucky for me i "should" never pay VAT since Norway is not a EU member...so i wonder if my final price will reflect that...hm.

When shopping at VSL, they actualy deduct the VAT off the final price, and i think that`s the only company that ever actualy did this :/

Anyway sounds awsome...need this like right NOW, i envision a bold new future writing only repeated 16th note machine gun staccato orchestra parts


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## damstraversaz (Dec 20, 2010)

that's a nice product, very useful. it could be great to have a manual, for understand for example what you just said about the sloppy RR, staccato knob etc.

another suggeestion, the possibility to remap the chords like a little cinemap. it could be great for live to have just what you need , for using it in a multi with some others strings library for exemple

the sound quality is really good, you have made a wonderful job, and the scripting is perfect. I don"t have any cpu hit ( on my 2 computers)

Damien


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## synthetic (Dec 20, 2010)

Wow, very cool. I love that the little companies like Cinesamples are kicking ass over the bigger, established guys. Though I don't like all these awesome new libraries hitting at the time of year that I'm broke. :S


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## midphase (Dec 20, 2010)

Bought it, downloaded it...Kickin' ass so far, I like it. 

Plus 1 on the PDF manual...pretty please!

Secondly...are you guys aware that your Script is showing in the editor? Is that the way it's supposed to be?

Thirdly....cool little trick I just figured out...but disabling the Monophonic on the Chords, one can achieve extended chords like 9th and 13ths by simply combining the Maj and Min chords in the appropriate relationships....very cool for a luch and dreamy sound.


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## FireGS (Dec 20, 2010)

+1 on the Manual, but..

I'd love to see a picture of the orchestra, or at least the seating chart. That'd really help for mixing, as well as the voicings. Pretty plz?


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## midphase (Dec 20, 2010)

P.S.

Plagiarizing Williams, Zimmer and Julyan just got way too easy!


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## Lex (Dec 20, 2010)

Got it...and I love it...
Sounds great, plays great...
thank you Cinesamples

alex


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## snowleopard (Dec 20, 2010)

Pretty impressive, especially the low chords. I don't know that I'll pick it up, but I'm one who is all for this kind of progress. I say bring it on! 

On the vid Mike's voice is too quiet. I cranked it up to hear him and when he hit the first note/chord it just about blew my windows out.


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## JJP (Dec 20, 2010)

I shudder to think of the day a composer starts handing me files to orchestrate after using this library.

"What do you mean you're charging more because you have to transcribe everything by ear? I gave you a complete MIDI file!!!
:wink:


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## Ed (Dec 20, 2010)

JJP @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> I shudder to think of the day a composer starts handing me files to orchestrate after using this library.
> 
> "What do you mean you're charging more because you have to transcribe everything by ear? I gave you a complete MIDI file!!!
> :wink:



As a non orchestrator that can only barely read music and even that is a bit of a lie, how difficult is it if you are also provided stems which just have this patch playing? Surely you can hear that its basically the whole orchestra playing all at the same time? Isn't that simple? Honestly, I am always fascinated and scared when I've given people stuff to be orchestrated to know just how much they hate me :D


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## Ed (Dec 20, 2010)

synthetic @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> Wow, very cool. I love that the little companies like Cinesamples are kicking ass over the bigger, established guys. Though I don't like all these awesome new libraries hitting at the time of year that I'm broke. :S



Well to be fair this product is quite expensive if they included as much material that Symphobia did and charged accordingly. I do like that I can buy just this though, I'd like it if I could just buy the legato in VOXOS but I know that aint gonna happen :lol:


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## mikebarry (Dec 20, 2010)

The recipe for the low chords is like this - its a mixture of the LOTR basic triad + the opening to Jurassic Park.


3 Clarinets doubling the 4 Horns in a triad
Bassons and Low Brass in a power voicing - root then 10th etc...

Strings filling the rest non divisi

everyone else tacet

no one getting higher then G"ish" above middle C

(Thank you to the illegal score trading market)


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## handz (Dec 20, 2010)

So owners, let us hear some more sounds

BTW I feel bit strange about the VAT for non US buyers - download should be free of any taxes as this is I thought is one of its main benefits, cause you not importing anything phisically into your country.


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## mikebarry (Dec 20, 2010)

Sorry about the VAT again. If fastspring is charging it - its legit and law. We can do nothing, we didn't ask them to charge it :(


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 20, 2010)

It sounds good!

I wonder why you guys are giving us major, minor and augmented triads and not diminished?


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## gregjazz (Dec 20, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> Secondly...are you guys aware that your Script is showing in the editor? Is that the way it's supposed to be?



Yup! I didn't bother password-protecting the script because the variable names in the script are compacted anyway.

Awesome LOTR demo, FireGS! The dynamic morphing is one of my favorite features, and you really used it well.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 20, 2010)

So who's getting this VAT thing? As far as I understand it, how it should work is that people in the EU (or anywhere) shouldn't be changed VAT on downloads from the US. We only pay VAT on within-EU downloads. US customers also shouldn't have to pay VAT on purchases from the EU.

Sounds to me like someone is adding VAT where they shouldn't, but I don't understand who or where?!

Back to CineOrch. I was just listening again to Symphobia's chords, and CineOrch I think is a clear step forward in a number of important ways

1 - modwheel velocity. This is crucial for usability imho

2 - full orchestration. Symphobia has 4 chord variations in strings, only 2 in brass, no woodwinds, so you can't achieve the same consistent effect.

3 - the low chord inversions. This, again, makes a huge difference in usability, opens it up to many more usable applications.

4 - the scripting. The chord transitions sound really natural.

Nice demo, FireGS!


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## rabiang (Dec 20, 2010)

i was not charged any extra (asia).


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 21, 2010)

ptrickf @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> couldn't resist ...... d*mn you GAS :D
> 
> ...still waiting for Kontakt 4 which I ordered on the 30th November!! ...but it works on the free player (might be missing vital scripts though I don't know - scripting geniuses?)
> 
> Patrick



Think you'll find it will only work for 30 mins with the free player.


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## dedersen (Dec 21, 2010)

It does sound really weird with the VAT thing. I never pay VAT anywhere else for download purchases, including e.g. Tonehammer and VSL. Maybe ask those guys.

It IS really annoying seeing that extra 25% on top of the price, when I am pretty sure it's not required. And it's definitely held me off a few extra purchases from you guys, which is a real shame.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 21, 2010)

Yes, trying (and failing) to find chapter and verse anywhere. As far as I understand it, the issue is that in US law tax doesn't apply on download products, so no-one else can legally charge their own. As you say dedersen, no-one else charges it for downloads or licenses from the US...


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## dedersen (Dec 21, 2010)

Still, even with the additional 25% I find my mouse cursor constantly hovering over that "Add to cart" button. Damn thing has a mind of its own, it seems. :D


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## dedersen (Dec 21, 2010)

Oh, and +1 on you guys making a pdf of the orchestration available.


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## Polarity (Dec 21, 2010)

I remember when I bought Drums Of War 1, HollywoodWinds and even Deep Percussion Beds from Cinesamples I didn't pay any VAT on the downloads.

And buying other downloads from other US companies (that post here too) I didn't pay VAT even during last month.
Purchasing Drums Of War 2 I was charged of VAT even paying in US dollars and not Euros
(so it recognizes your country IP address).

Is Fastspring a new selling platform for Cinesamples?
Or it was the same also before?

More CineOrch demos please!!
You are tempting me to buy it too...


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## rayinstirling (Dec 21, 2010)

The thing is, in the UK the VAT and Customs people are the same but anyway that's not the real issue.

If I buy a download from Cinesamples or anybody do I then own that product or am I just buying the rights to the legal use of that product?
I'm sure the developer still owns the library so should I pay VAT on something that will disappear if the media I use to store it goes faulty.
Paying VAT on a CD DVD and/or the box provided by the developer. Well that's a different thing isn't it?

BTW I had to buy this product even with the VAT and it probably won't be the last of such purchases that a lazy untrained muso like me will covet.


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## muzicphiles (Dec 21, 2010)

Hi mike
thanks you for the wonderful christmas gift!!
great job !! 
A small request -As these crazy deals on your mindboggling libraries are forcing us to go back to the CS shop again and again .its quite a pain to fill up address and account details everytime we make a purchase.It would be nice if you could have your return customer's experience like audiomidi NI or VSL shops...


seasons greetings
sameer


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## Polarity (Dec 21, 2010)

I didn't resist and bought it already.
Can I just write that this time I got it not from Cinesamples directly (sorry), 
but from an other distributor that didn't charged me with the VAT??

I noticed that samples are already in lossless .ncw format.
Very good.


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## Hannesdm (Dec 21, 2010)

Polarity @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> Can I just write that this time I got it not from Cinesamples directly,
> but from an other distributor that didn't charged me with the VAT??



Thanks for the tip!


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## Ed (Dec 21, 2010)

lux @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> Price is sure interesting.
> 
> ..but how this product could be used out of a typical "hits" usage? I mean, how do you blend it with an orchestral setup? Doesnt it stink out as something completely different? Also, werent hits and chords included in a lot of the old libraries like Orchestral Manouvres, Orchestral Colours or the like?
> 
> ...



Personally I plan to use it underneath other sounds. It won't be used much but i imagine when I do use it it will be very effective. If I'm doing a faò  ç   à³Š  ç   à³¬  ç   àµÜ  ç   àµî  ç   à¿7  ç   à¿Œ  ç   àÜ  ç   àÜ^  ç   àÞB  ç


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## twinsinmind (Dec 21, 2010)

Do be honest i wouldn't mind to pay a little more to your libraries as it goes to you guys.

But for now there is a difference between European and Americans , which is not your fault , but its kind of we Europeans need to pay 21% more

to tell you 99 dollar becomes 120 dollar..... now that seems not much
But i bought this weekend crash and orch which makes it already 50+ dollars difference

So a solutions and a clearity on this matter would be great

*
BUT AGAIN GUYS: Orch is Superb like all Cinesample products!!! *


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## bryla (Dec 21, 2010)

twinsinmind @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> Do be honest i wouldn't mind to pay a little more to your libraries as it goes to you guys.


Mike and Mike wont see any of those extra $22 - they all go down Uncle Sams pocket.


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## windshore (Dec 21, 2010)

+1 on making a pdf of the orchestration available.


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## JJP (Dec 21, 2010)

mikebarry @ Mon Dec 20 said:


> The recipe for the low chords is like this - its a mixture of the LOTR basic triad + the opening to Jurassic Park.
> <snip>
> (Thank you to the illegal score trading market)


Wow, a commercial developer publicly admitting that copyrighted materials were illegally used in creating a product?

I actually worked on one of the scores you mentioned. So thanks, dude, you're a real class act. :roll: :(


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## midphase (Dec 21, 2010)

Meh.....I think Mike was referring to the fact that most of these scores are not available to the general public. I'm sure whatever he could buy, he did buy. 

I don't think you should take it like a personal affront JJP...but if you feel that strongly about it just don't buy this product.


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## twinsinmind (Dec 21, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> Meh.....I think Mike was referring to the fact that most of these scores are not available to the general public. I'm sure whatever he could buy, he did buy.
> 
> I don't think you should take it like a personal affront JJP...but if you feel that strongly about it just don't buy this product.



read Score TRADING market , not I SAMPLED YOUR MUSIC TO make this library.

but if you worked on any of those, my respect anyway.... though i would like to know more then.


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## Hannesdm (Dec 21, 2010)

Not to go too much off topic here, but I don't see anything wrong in using scores that aren't commercially available to study..

It's not like he is selling them, right?

OT: Just bought it and it sounds great! I'm sure it will be a huge timesaver to add that extra 'real' layer underneath.


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## bryla (Dec 21, 2010)

JJP I also was surprised to see such a comment from a developer. To study the works of others, they should pay the license to use the scores just as you do when you buy Williams Deluxe or Boosey&Hawkes


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## mikebarry (Dec 21, 2010)

Tough crowd :roll: 

For the record I own hard copies of just about every signature edition. By the way illegal was mentioned tounge in cheek as alot of my scores were given to us as study materials @ USC or the Mancini institute or ASCAP or by the composers themselves. I've managed to save everyone I ever got. 

I actually own 124 lbs of piano book sheet music I weighed it last time I moved .
Oh well... ... ...

EDIT: Got the LOTR @ Mancini in like 2005 
Got JP @ USC

I guess its not "illegal" then - rather study materials


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## midphase (Dec 21, 2010)

Sigh....but what if they're not available to purchase? What if the public has no access to the actual scores? Then what?

I actually applaud Mike for his unusual candor...although in retrospect I'm sure he wishes he hadn't said anything.


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## Frederick Russ (Dec 21, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> Meh.....I think Mike was referring to the fact that most of these scores are not available to the general public. I'm sure whatever he could buy, he did buy.
> 
> I don't think you should take it like a personal affront JJP...but if you feel that strongly about it just don't buy this product.



Agreed. I don't think Mike's comment was intended to offend anyone or any reference to actual illegal activity on his part. (I've met Mike and can tell you he's a straight shooter and not one to engage in anything shady. Besides it would be kind of silly to mention it publicly if that were so.) 




twinsinmind @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> read Score TRADING market , not I SAMPLED YOUR MUSIC TO make this library.
> 
> but if you worked on any of those, my respect anyway.... though i would like to know more then.



Not trying to single you out but it seems that JJP was involved in The Lord of the Rings: The Twin Towers and The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King movies as a music editor (among a fairly prolific career that includes working in the music departments of Avatar, The Christmas Carol and dozens more. (Hope you don't mind me mentioning that - respect.)


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## cc64 (Dec 21, 2010)

Just for the record regarding VAT or other sales taxes. I just ordered and there weren't any taxes added to my order.

I'm in Montreal, province of Quebec,Canada.

Claude


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## bryla (Dec 21, 2010)

Mike, I wish you have said it like that the first time. That is not illegal.


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## midphase (Dec 21, 2010)

Is it illegal to go to a library...study a score (without buying it) and then creating a commercial product out of that knowledge?


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## muzicphiles (Dec 21, 2010)

downloaded it .. !! the library is brilliant .. hoping you would release a part II of this library.. 
thanks again CS team !


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## FireGS (Dec 21, 2010)

Seriously, as awesomesauce as this library is, I'm finding that I need some more chords! sus4's and sus2's would be amazing =D


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## RiffWraith (Dec 21, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> Is it illegal to go to a library...study a score (without buying it) and then creating a commercial product out of that knowledge?



I don't know - is it illegal to listen to music, and then create a commercial composition out of the knowledge you have thereby gained?


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## FireGS (Dec 21, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> midphase @ Wed Dec 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Is it illegal to go to a library...study a score (without buying it) and then creating a commercial product out of that knowledge?
> ...



Depends on what the definition of is, is.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 21, 2010)

midphase @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> Is it illegal to go to a library...study a score (without buying it) and then creating a commercial product out of that knowledge?



no.


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## manyfingers (Dec 21, 2010)

to mike(s) cinesamples,

regarding the "illegal" discussion, personally i think it's BS. The product is fantastic and it doesn't matter a damn if it was "inspired" by other works. The fact of the matter is that, in my opinion, EVERY composer has some influences on his or her work. Perhaps discounting composers such as moondog, partch and cage (and even then their works reflect those of others). There are very few totally original compositions out there that can boast of not being influenced by anything. Cinesamples profiting from it?! most composers work is not original..maybe the sequence of notes is different..but for goodness sake.. not often i get annoyed about this turgid rubbish but for the people who have enough time on their hands to write these disparaging comments my views on this matter are summed up by the following doug stanhope clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooWailmzEoQ

perhaps ironically i have the utmost respect for jjp and his prolific and respected career.

THAT'S my opinion (which doesn't matter)


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 21, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> midphase @ Wed Dec 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Is it illegal to go to a library...study a score (without buying it) and then creating a commercial product out of that knowledge?
> ...



no.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 21, 2010)

JJP @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> mikebarry @ Mon Dec 20 said:
> 
> 
> > The recipe for the low chords is like this - its a mixture of the LOTR basic triad + the opening to Jurassic Park.
> ...



As a publisher, I'm responding to this. 

In a later post Mike Barry pointed out that he acquired the scores from the individual composers during special classes he was able to take. The same situation is the case for the scores made available with the Scott Smalley seminars. 

Under the Fair Use Provision of the U.S. Copyright Act, such scores with permission can be made available with a live-in-person class, but not a live-online class. The scores are not being made available for resale by the composers but for study. 

Customers buying John Williams scores which are made available for both live concerts and self/group study are fully expected to learn from the material and use it. 

Customers buying On The Score by the late Fred Karlin and Ray Wright are expected to learn from the material and use it.

Copyright infringement comes when a melody is copied.


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## José Herring (Dec 21, 2010)

I honestly don't think that it's a question of legality but rather an ethical one. 

I don't know how the product was created. If he used the scores as a starting point and then figured out his own voicings and orchestrations then of course no harm, but if he just verbatim copied straight from the scores then, I don't know how illegal it is, but it's pretty shady imo. In that case he basically just took all the work that some very talented composers and orchestrators created recorded it and repackaged it to sell to lesser composers and orchestrators so they can "get the same sound" as x movie.

I dunno guys. Jay brings up a valid point. This may be going too far.

Jose


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## JonFairhurst (Dec 21, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> Copyright infringement comes when a melody is copied.



Copyright infringement comes from when somebody with a lawyer can get the judge/jury to agree with them. 

(And, yes, precedent shows this to be when a melody is copied.)


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## JonFairhurst (Dec 21, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> ...if he just verbatim copied straight from the scores then, I don't know how illegal it is, but it's pretty shady imo. ...



As I recall, it's legal to make your own phone book for sale (or to sell ads) by typing in the numbers from an existing phone book by hand, but it's not legal to make a photocopy of an existing phone book to create your own. I seem to recall a court decision that you couldn't use OCR either, without obtaining permission. (That's a real gray area if you ask me. I think it had to do with making a temporary copy inside the OCR machine.)

This topic has to do with information vs. an implementation. The original phone book company does not own copyright of the names and numbers in the book. That's just raw information. The company does, however, own its implementation of its phone book.

Regarding music, people do not own copyright of chords or voicings. You can copy this by hand freely. However, you can't freely photocopy the written score (or copy a recording of a performance.) Since the melody is covered by copyright, you can't freely copy the written melody by hand or record your own performance without obtaining rights.

(I'm not a lawyer. I only play one while watching TV.)


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## rpaillot (Dec 21, 2010)

I think this is a cool product but I can't help thinking also : As a composer, What's the pleasure in using pre-orchestrated pre-voiced instrument ?

When I started composition, what interested me was how do you make this or that, how do you balance the chords, what instruments are you giving the third, the fifth, and so on ...

So if you already know how to do this, fine, you can use this sample library, but if you're young and learning orchestration/composition, to me it's a tool that will make you think you orchestrate well and the day you'll have the budget for an orchestra, you'll be completely lost.


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## mikebarry (Dec 21, 2010)

wow now I know how Nick Pheonix must feel.

I don't see what the big deal is. While at USC I studied all these scores like every day - with all my classmates - it's pretty much all we did. I have all this stuff in my mind, colors I like and how to make them. I know the opening of track 2 jurassic park is low winds + low strings + low brass. I know howard shore uses the triad 3-4-5 horn doubling with violas in like every track. So when mike patti handed me the piano sketch I knew exactly how to get this color - via study. If you have a problem with this - fine.

I cant believe we are having a discussion over CHORD voicings!! WHAT?!?!

Ok back to getting my ass kicked in Black Ops (damn ghost campers)


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## RiffWraith (Dec 21, 2010)

1.


rpaillot @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> I think this is a cool product but I can't help thinking also : As a composer, What's the pleasure in using pre-orchestrated pre-voiced instrument ?



Do you own Symphobia?


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## RiffWraith (Dec 21, 2010)

Let's all remember something: a chord, or an orchstration of a chord is not something you can copyright. You can't take an Em chord, have the strings do x, the woods do y, the horns and tuba do z, and claim that as yours. Many scores from many different composers contain identically orchestrated chords - epsecially if the same orchestrator was used. 

So now, I ask this: some of you seem to thing that it is not ok that CSamples used a printed score as the basis for this lib. Would it have been ok, if they listened to a composition, and as a basis used the chord formations, voicings and intervals that they heard? If not, then why not? If yes, then what is the difference between using the recording as opposed to the printed score?

And if you answer "yes" it is ok to use the recording as a basis, I then ask this: have you yourself ever listened to a recording, and said, "ooh - I like the way that chord sounds...what's he doing there?" and then used that voicing in a composition?


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## bryla (Dec 21, 2010)

Let's all remember that Mike wasn't talking about ripping orchestration, but he was implying he obtained physical scores the illegal way - which he now explained he did it legally. Scores are protected by copyright.


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## IvanP (Dec 21, 2010)

Oh, come on, guys!

10 replies before, you were all raving about how good it sounds and enjoying it all!

Mike even shared what the orchestration's trick's about, it's obvious that knowing it won't leave the fact that it had to be arranged and prepared to meet the programming, voice leading, etc. 

Having the score in your hands won't even get you half way around this...or just take all those Williams scores and try to do the same thing and offer a "Williams Cine Orch" done by any of us. 

Although I get your point, I find it ridiculous, specially when there's another thread about some guy called Joseph being hired to plagiarize and ghost write a whole score and nobody seems to worry. 

Come on guys, who hasn't giggled with scores during our studies, who hasn't tried to learn about Stravinsky's orchestration secrets, or even Classical, Mannheim straight forward orchestration? we all rely on scores for our education and yet nobody's been accused of orchestration plagiarism because it comes directly from our composition, ongoing, education! Who's the only one around here that learned to compose succesfully for orchestra without having read anything about orchestration or instrumentation? Even J.S. Bach got blind because of all those years hand copying thousands of scores to learn from. 

It's a question of aesthetic and chops, guys...just watch the Mozart and Salieri composing scene in Amadeus and you'll find that everything's more simple than this plagiarism and illegal nonsense. 

Dunno, guys, I think you should just chill out and don't shoot Mike as he's only the messenger. A enthousiastic messenger since he seems to have released a good product. My advice? Enjoy it while these keep coming....specially if it saves time (and health) during absurd deadlines.


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## stonzthro (Dec 21, 2010)

Say the course Mike - this is a great product and will save my skin when I'm up against a wall.

Seriously folks, if you don't like the product or you feel threatened by it, DON'T BUY IT!


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## midphase (Dec 21, 2010)

bryla @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> Let's all remember that Mike wasn't talking about ripping orchestration, but he was implying he obtained physical scores the illegal way - which he now explained he did it legally. Scores are protected by copyright.



The question is the following:

How ethical is it for a person to avail themselves of scores (or music) not available for purchase, through dubious means in order to create a commercial product (or non commercial product for that matter)?

Think about it for a second before answering.


Here's a scenario: I'm working on a movie score (a commercial product)...there is a cool Harp figure that I would like to emulate in my work from the Bernard Herrmann's Vertigo soundtrack (not available for purchase AFAIKò  è   ™P+  è   ™R¡  è   ™S  è   ™W  è   ™W!  è   ™XK  è   ™X˜  è   ™`ú  è   ™a0  è   ™d  è   ™dP  è   ™‘×  è   ™’  è   ™•k  è   ™—Ž  è   ™¡™  è   ™¡°  è   ™¤E  è   ™¤}  è   ™ª¬  è   ™ª¶  è   ™¬4  è   ™¬x  è   ™­U  è   ™­•  è   ™­Ù  è   ™®  è   ™ÅÏ  è   ™Ç0  è   ™×£  è   ™Ø5  è   ™Û­  è   ™Ü¢  è   š²  è   šÏ  è   š  è   š?  è   šc  è   š{  è   š2Ì


----------



## germancomponist (Dec 21, 2010)

gsilbers @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> interesting to see that everyone is cool about spending $100 on only 3 patches.



Maybe you have not noticed it: More and more developers are doing libraries for the "modern composers"! So what? :mrgreen:


----------



## RiffWraith (Dec 21, 2010)

steb74 @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> Regarding the 'other' matter, I can't help but picture you here ...... :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_Kneel, son of Jor-El! Kneel before Zod! _

Sorry, Frederick - couldn't help myself... :oops:


----------



## RiffWraith (Dec 21, 2010)

gsilbers @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> interesting to see that everyone is cool about spending $100 on only 3 patches.



It's not haw many patches you have - it's what you can do with them.

I personally would pay mightly for one lonesome "make me sound like John Williams" patch! :lol:


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## JonFairhurst (Dec 21, 2010)

With 70 musicians per chord, we can think of this as 210 pre-orchestrated patches. 

PS: A pdf with the orchestration would be critically important for those of us trying to blend things. (Especially since you would own copyright of the notation you would create - regardless of the chords and orchestration that it's based on.)


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## gsilbers (Dec 21, 2010)

just said its interesting. nothing else. did not imply bad nor good. 

in theory it kinda would be almost the same as symphobia price per patch. maybe less as its more than 13 more patches. 
and i like symphobia. but its not about that right. i have trillion vsl patches whichh i dont use any single one of them. 

so hope for expansions.


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## ChrisAxia (Dec 21, 2010)

Like Guy and some others have said, it's ridiculous to think the Mikes have done anything either illegal or unethical. Nice work guys and happy Christmas to all!!

~Chris


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 21, 2010)

rpaillot @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> I think this is a cool product but I can't help thinking also : As a composer, What's the pleasure in using pre-orchestrated pre-voiced instrument ?
> 
> When I started composition, what interested me was how do you make this or that, how do you balance the chords, what instruments are you giving the third, the fifth, and so on ...
> 
> So if you already know how to do this, fine, you can use this sample library, but if you're young and learning orchestration/composition, to me it's a tool that will make you think you orchestrate well and the day you'll have the budget for an orchestra, you'll be completely lost.



The Two Mikes consistently create quality problem/solution libraries. This is another one. Its premise is that recording techniques like this live provide a realization that isn't really achievable with current libraries, or, is achievable but with a lot of effort. 

This is a time-is-money problem/solution package.

Thanks to the Two Mikes for recording it and making it available to the community at such a value price.


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## midphase (Dec 21, 2010)

gsilbers @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> just said its interesting. nothing else. did not imply bad nor good.
> 
> in theory it kinda would be almost the same as symphobia price per patch. maybe less as its more than 13 more patches.
> and i like symphobia. but its not about that right. i have trillion vsl patches whichh i dont use any single one of them.
> ...



It's 3 patches that I know I'll use the crap out of...unlike some of the other products on the market with patches that I have yet to actually open.

Regarding the more expansions of this product....I find it difficult to believe that the Mikes would have gone through the trouble of setting up an orchestral recording session just to have the players play some chords. My guess is that there is a lot more coming.


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## TuwaSni (Dec 21, 2010)

Cinorch sounds great! You got my order. In the future - dim chords? 4ths? 5ths? Clusters?



Tuwa


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## Ed (Dec 21, 2010)

mikebarry @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> wow now I know how Nick Pheonix must feel.
> 
> I don't see what the big deal is. While at USC I studied all these scores like every day - with all my classmates - it's pretty much all we did. I have all this stuff in my mind, colors I like and how to make them. I know the opening of track 2 jurassic park is low winds + low strings + low brass. I know howard shore uses the triad 3-4-5 horn doubling with violas in like every track. So when mike patti handed me the piano sketch I knew exactly how to get this color - via study. If you have a problem with this - fine.
> 
> ...



MIKE YOU STOLE MY C MAJOR CHORD I AM SO ANGRY RITE NAOOOW!


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## ptrickf (Dec 22, 2010)

JonFairhurst @ Tue 21 Dec said:


> A pdf with the orchestration would be critically important for those of us trying to blend things


+1 for that



mikebarry @ Tue 21 Dec said:


> 3 Clarinets doubling the 4 Horns in a triad
> Bassons and Low Brass in a power voicing


so definitely: 
3 clarinets 
4 horns

How are the remaining 63 players divided please?

cheers, P.


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## Hicks (Dec 22, 2010)

Hi guys.

I have read the manual. I wonder if there is not a typo issue.

On page 3 regarding low chords : "the first inversion, having the 3rd in the bass. In
“6/4 chords”.

I am french, so maybe the french notation is not the same as in US.
But in France, the first inversion with the third in the bass is called "6", and the second inversion with the fifth in the bass is called "6/4".
Hope it will help.

By the way, it seems to sound great. May be I will give myself a christmas present!

Regards


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## lux (Dec 22, 2010)

isnt the old Rimsky Korsakov full of those type of informations? Same goes for adler (a tutti dedicated section) and a huge lot of orchestration devices. Not to speak about the hundreds scores available which offer such a large amount of variants for tutti chords/lines.

I'm surprised to see so much interest to hear the orchestration behind three patches.

Personally i see this product much more useful for pop/hip hop than for full orchestral scores, which are probably more an issue when placing an exogen tutti chord at a certain point. Its like having the London entering at half of my ewqlso orchestration. The chord sounds great but it has nothing to do with previous material probably.

I'm curious to hear first demos "in context", which could be a good evaluation helper.

Luca


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## Hannes_F (Dec 22, 2010)

JJP @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> I shudder to think of the day a composer starts handing me files to orchestrate after using this library.
> 
> "What do you mean you're charging more because you have to transcribe everything by ear? I gave you a complete MIDI file!!!
> :wink:



Transcribing everything by ear already happens here frequently because of various reasons. One would be that the composer worked by ear without caring for the tempo grid. The other case is that multiple patches have been piled upon each other in keyboard manner and it might be faster to re-orchestrate by ear and introduce some voice-leading than un-doubling everything and then still have block chord writing. Third are pre-canned chords. A growing nò  ë   ÞI\  ë   ÞPb  ë   ÞPž  ë   ÞmÓ  ë   Þn  ë   Þo¹  ë   Þp5  ë   Þp¶  ë   Þq>  ë   Þšú  ë   Þ›!  ë   Þ¬h  ë   Þ¬p  ë   Þ×˜  ë   Þ×Ù  ë   Þù   ë   Þù0  ë   Þùi  ë   Þù©  ë   Þÿâ  ë   ß #  ë   ßÏ  ë   ßù  ë   ß'ó  ë   ß(J  ë   ß.ž  ë   ß.ú  ë   ß/®  ë   ß0%  ë   ß=;  ë   ß=h  ë   ßA·  ë   ßA»  ë   ßVÙ  ë   ßWû  ë   ßZP  ë   ßZw  ë   ßZ£  ë   ßZÒ  ë


----------



## twinsinmind (Dec 22, 2010)

to mike, can you sent me your xbox live account so i can shoot the ghost campers for you, i hate them tooo :D i make it always personal :D


Secondly: the thing that makes me sick on this forum is the guys who come from a classical background with paper and pencil VS people doing the same job but embrassed the modern day technology. 

I lOVE THIS LIBRARY: Does that automatically mean I can't write a chord myself????
NO

But We are not all Symphony and Waltz and classic composers: 
In soundtracks sometimes you can run quickly out of time before the next deadline:

And i assure you CINESAMPLES, from the bottom of my heart, Thanks to you guys we can make great scores within a small timeframe without limiting the quality of our work.

Its not because you are a master cook , you never buy a ready made dinner


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## lux (Dec 22, 2010)

youre sure doin everything by yourself and replying to your own questions. 

As i havent read a comment about the fact you or anyone else should feel guilty of using a premade chord. We all do it.

What makes me "sick" of this forum is when someone posts against himself, so that things start heatin up without any reason.


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## dedersen (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm thinking that this might actually be a really good reference tool for balancing levels of your template. Which I have been wanting to do lately. Of course, then that PDF score sheet would really be handy.

Also I feel like buying it just because it looks like it's damn fun to play! 

With the number of times I've watched the first peek video, it's really only a matter of time before my credit card suddenly appears next to my keyboard.


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 22, 2010)

lux @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> isnt the old Rimsky Korsakov full of those type of informations? Same goes for adler (a tutti dedicated section) and a huge lot of orchestration devices. Not to speak about the hundreds scores available which offer such a large amount of variants for tutti chords/lines.



Not quite. The actual father of coloristic orchestration is Francois Auguste Geveart whose book on orchestration influenced generations of composers in France, Russia, and Germany. Rimsky-Korsakov studied out of this book and his book simply increased the number of coloristic combinations given by Geveart. His son-in-law illustrated the technique list with examples from Rimsky's own works. 

Building off this, the Professional Orchestration series expands the coloristic combinations list and breaks them out by specific registers (low, medium, high, and very high) to show how the orchestration changes when the register changes. This was something I personally learned from Jerry Goldsmith and I've organized the series accordingly. 

Per a different post.

Knowing chord voice leading isn't classical, it's just understanding how chords effectively connect with each other, which in pop music happens to be called a pad.

I don't have a system that can run K4 today (still squeezing out the last bit from my G5), but the two Mikes have set down some very common coloristic combinations that are at-your-service on demand. 

Trying to recreate these color combinations with the proper balance using independent sample libraries is very difficult. 

They've done that for you, as they did with Hollywoodwinds. Same premise.

Buy 'em.

PS, not a dealer for this product. This is just a heartfelt endorsement for a cool digital stocking stuffer.


----------



## lux (Dec 22, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> lux @ Wed Dec 22 said:
> 
> 
> > isnt the old Rimsky Korsakov full of those type of informations? Same goes for adler (a tutti dedicated section) and a huge lot of orchestration devices. Not to speak about the hundreds scores available which offer such a large amount of variants for tutti chords/lines.



Not quite. The actual father of coloristic orchestration is Francois Auguò  í   ÜE©  í   ÜFª  í   ÜX  í   ÜXÒ  í   Üp‹  í   Üp™  í   ÜˆY  í   Üˆc  í   Ü  í   Ü0  í   ÜŒ  í   Üñ  í   Üº~  í   Üº  í   ÜÌž  í   ÜÌÔ  í   Ýž  í   ÝÖ  í   Ýà  í   Ý(  í   Ý">  í   Ý"‰  í   Ý*3  í   Ý*U  í   Ý4Š  í   Ý4¬  í   Ý<“  í   Ý=	  í   Ýj—  í   Ýk®  í   ÝwN  í   Ýwl  í   Ýyð  í   Ýz%  í   Ýƒ  í   Ýƒd  í   Ý˜ª  í   Ý˜³  í   ÝL  í   ÝV  í   Ý¢*  í   Ý¢<  í   Ý¤ß  í   Ý¥  í   Ý¯  í   Ý¯  í   Ý»  í   Ý»$  í   ÝÁú  í   ÝÂ  í   ÝÃb  í   ÝÃŒ  í   ÝÃÏ  í   ÝÃÒ  í   ÝÅF  í   ÝÅO  í   ÝÊ#  í   ÝÊ.  í   Ýöf  í   Ýö  í   Þ‘  í   Þ§  í   Þ    í   Þ ,  í   Þ  í   Þ!  í   Þ‰  í   Þº  í   Þ!Á  í   Þ!Ð  í   Þ6Å  í   Þ6à  í   Þ:¡  í   Þ:µ  í   Þ<.  í   Þ<}  í   ÞC*  í   ÞCj  í   ÞQŽ  í   ÞRI  í   ÞXï  í   ÞY)  í   ÞZ   í   ÞZ  í   Þ\\  í   Þ\«  í   Þ]ù  í   Þ^  í   Þgr


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue Dec 21 said:


> I honestly don't think that it's a question of legality but rather an ethical one.
> 
> I don't know how the product was created. If he used the scores as a starting point and then figured out his own voicings and orchestrations then of course no harm, but if he just verbatim copied straight from the scores then, I don't know how illegal it is, but it's pretty shady imo. In that case he basically just took all the work that some very talented composers and orchestrators created recorded it and repackaged it to sell to lesser composers and orchestrators so they can "get the same sound" as x movie.
> 
> ...



Best not to be using any 1-3-5 voicings on your compositions. I believe they were already used in the 50's.


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## wst3 (Dec 22, 2010)

Wow!

The holidays seem to be getting to everyone!

I think the CineOrch library is interesting. It will allow people to either (a) work quickly, or (b) add some realism that can only come from sampling an entire orchestra playing chords.

I think the unfortunate comment about the illegal trading of scores was... well, unfortunate. I'm not really sure why it was posted in the first place, probably to be humorous, but it started quite a firestorm... too bad!

I think that a debate about the legal or ethical issues related to stealing scores, or any intellectual property, are wasted. Right not it's against the law. I wish I had a school nearby that had a scoring program that studied modern scores like that, I'd probably find a way to enroll. I don't. So I'll continue to transcribe by ear. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

A debate about the value, or ethical issues related to a library that pretty much hands you a sound on a platter are interesting, but the horse is out of the barn, the door is locked, and we aren't going to change that.

That such libraries tend to create a sameness is a problem, but it is driven by more forces than the technology... lazy and/or greedy producers that aren't willing to go out on a limb for starters.

And then we get an attack on Peter A? I don't think that was deserved at all.

I'm very glad that threads like this are the exception tot he rule here!!!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> JJP @ Tue Dec 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I shudder to think of the day a composer starts handing me files to orchestrate after using this library.
> ...



Now I know who to go for for transcriptions of my laziness. :wink:


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 22, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> Best not to be using any 1-3-5 voicings on your compositions. I believe they were already used in the 50's.



I hope you're in jest with this statement as I have scores given to me by Allyn Ferguson, Jerry Goldsmith, Hank Mancini and others with triads in them. 

Like Mike Barry, I have nearly all the Williams scores. Triads all over the place there.

I've got the two pads from Scott Smalley's seminar. Triads in those scores, too.

Some of the techniques applied to CineOrch were found in the new LOTR book we announced here. 

In the two different editions of On The Track, I'm sure you'll find a triad or two, there as well.

The extended woodwind section used often by Williams, borrowed from German composer Richard Wagner BTW, is there for triadic use as well. 

Triads are still used in film scoring today and they don't sound old!

Larry - if you meant to be humorous and I misread it, I apologize.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 22, 2010)

I think he meant to be humourous.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 22, 2010)

I laughed out loud! V funny...


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## José Herring (Dec 22, 2010)

I want to apologize to Cinesamples for my comments, which I've asked Frederick to delete. 

This thread was not the thread to voice my resentment over certain kinds of technology. I do feel quite adamant about certain things when it comes to music and these kinds of products set off a bomb in me that's hard for me to diffuse and control.

But, I do sincerely want to express that I in no way want to belittle the work of others. So for that I'm sorry.

best,

Jose


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## midphase (Dec 22, 2010)

Real-World report:

I've been working on a film score for the past month and yesterday I was going over a cue that to me felt a bit bare. I pulled out CineOrch and in 5 minutes added sustained chords and the problem was solved and the cue was finished.

I think there are two methods of using this library, one is to actually write cues with it and use it as the main element, and the second is to add it in after the cue is already pretty well fleshed out in order to fill in the gaps and add additional polish and production. For me, the latter is the most interesting and leads to cues that don't all sound the same, but of course people can use this library as they see fit.

Either way...I think this is the best $100 I spent in a long time!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Dec 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Best not to be using any 1-3-5 voicings on your compositions. I believe they were already used in the 50's.
> ...



Peter-I'm bemused you could have seen my post as anything but humorous.

The problem here must be my underuse of emoticons :wink: :lol:  :mrgreen: (o) o-[][]-o


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## Craig Sharmat (Dec 22, 2010)

i don't see how the (o) fits in here

btw a few thoughts.

first not only do I love the library I see huge possibilities for the future.

To those who find any need to complain about Cineorch, Peter Z's Orchestral Colors released over 10 yrs ago had similar material. Chords, Hits etc. This is implemented much better.


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 22, 2010)

dedersen @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> I'm thinking that this might actually be a really good reference tool for balancing levels of your template. Which I have been wanting to do lately. Of course, then that PDF score sheet would really be handy.
> 
> Also I feel like buying it just because it looks like it's damn fun to play!
> 
> With the number of times I've watched the first peek video, it's really only a matter of time before my credit card suddenly appears next to my keyboard.


'

+1


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## germancomponist (Dec 22, 2010)

Oh what a discussion here..... . 

Yeah, for sure, it is not only easy to work with this kind of libs. I think another reason why some people are not in love with such libs is the fact, that people who have not studied orchestration, that they, by using such libs, are able to do pretty cool sounding stuff, yes, no? :mrgreen: o/~ 

these libs are the libs for the "modern composers"! o-[][]-o


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## MMMusic (Dec 22, 2010)

This is dope! I have been pondering on Symphobia for a while, but Cineorch will be my Christmas present :D


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## Udo (Dec 22, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu Dec 23 said:


> Yeah, for sure, it is not only easy to work with this kind of libs. I think another reason why some people are not in love with such libs is the fact, that people who have not studied orchestration, that they, by using such libs, are able to do pretty cool sounding stuff, yes, no? :mrgreen: o/~
> these libs are the libs for the "modern composers"! o-[][]-o


Yes, but ..... doesn't a product like Improvisator provide significantly more sophisticated, encompassing and flexible musical "crutches" than Cineorch?


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## germancomponist (Dec 22, 2010)

Udo @ Thu Dec 23 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, for sure, it is not only easy to work with this kind of libs. I think another reason why some people are not in love with such libs is the fact, that people who have not studied orchestration, that they, by using such libs, are able to do pretty cool sounding stuff, yes, no? :mrgreen: o/~
> ...



It does, but it now is not the hype..... . o=<

BTW, I too do not like it that people ,by using such libs, are able to shine as great composers, but never had studied composing... .


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## Udo (Dec 22, 2010)

Have you used a recent version of Improvisator, Gunther? (No need to be embarrassed :wink: ).

EDIT: Gunther added the last sentence, in his post above, after my question. Now I have another question (also relates to the following post): Why is using tools like that such a contentious issue? Isn't it the creativity, originality (definitely possible with those tools) and musical relevance of the final result that counts (for the people listing to the results, at least)?


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## germancomponist (Dec 22, 2010)

Smile, I know that there is the Improvisator, but never have spent a time to look at it.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2010)

Craig Sharmat @ Wed Dec 22 said:


> i don't see how the (o) fits in here
> 
> btw a few thoughts.
> 
> ...



Well, using a lot of emoticons is alien to me. What can I say.

+1 about Orchestral Colors, and I've been using snippets of that forever. What an awesome little hiphop tool that was/is.

I'm a buyer. Just dl'd and ready to play and listen!


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## dedersen (Dec 23, 2010)

This has got to be a new record for the commercial announcement thread with the most tangents.


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## handz (Dec 23, 2010)

As I like this product and how it sounds - Im also not a friend of this kind of "composing" with preorchestrated patches etc. It will not improve your skills. 
Im not a composer who is permamently in the hurry i confess, but still, I would not be happy with my music if it rely on preorchestrated / precomposed patches. I like to do all myself and have full controll over m work usualy. 

And second thing is that incomporating such precomposed chord to normal template is IMO bit hard and usualy it will be faster to make that chord using single patches from template. 

midphase: if your music needs only few tutti chords to sound interesting - man, you are facing composer crysis maybe


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 23, 2010)

Look, people - can any more discussion on the supposed ethics of this (or any other) library go on here?

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19213

Thank you.

Downloading now, btw!


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 23, 2010)

LOVE!!!!

LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE!!!!!!!

Oh it's sssssooooo gorgeous. Hate to say it, but this is beating Project Sam at their own game. OK, only three patches... I know... but they are playable in a way that PS's often are not. You'd have to work hard to make their chords useable in practice. Actually I'm so embedded to the modweel for velocity that it's hard for me to use PS's at all in the real world.

This is silky smooth on the wheel, the note transitions are natural. You can just play. The tone is outstanding. I'll definitely do a little piece or two as a demo soon, with other libraries around it.

They're all great, but it's those Low Chords that are the standout. The inversions are genius... I think it opens it up to not sounding so fake, the progressions don't sound like chord A to chord B, they sound far more natural and musical than that. Maybe this is what is upsetting people, it's easy to come up with fluid progressions almost by accident.

Thanks Mikes... more more more!


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 23, 2010)

(sorry, three posts in a row, bad form).

I've done a very quick demo that puts the Low Chords alongside an existing template. Found myself channelling John Barry, so Piz Gloria can be found here - 

http://www.box.net/shared/kt7je10fvr

This is Low Chords alongside patches from LASS Lite, Symphobia, VSL and EWQL SO (excuse any rough edges, this took about 45 minutes!)

The point is - to me those glorious chords beg to create melodies over. OK, they're great on their own, but it's also a fantastic inspirational tool too as a jumping off point.


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## windshore (Dec 23, 2010)

With some mixed feelings (about shortuts and state-of-technology ideology) I purchased the lib. I have to say it does sound excellent.

In practical use however, I'm not sure how much I'll be able to use it. I can imagine that it's perfect if you want to score something that will work with these particular voicings and you want lots of parallelism.

If you are wanting to use it to orchestrate behind something - an existing theme perhaps or for longer cues that need to develop, I wonder if trying to use it will actually cost more time.

I'm not trying to knock it. I think it could be lots of fun if you start with CineOrch as the starting point. I'm just not sure how useful it will be for me in daily use.... (I tend to start from a theme and then orchestrate.)


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## Polarity (Dec 23, 2010)

While I was listening to the new Drums Of War 2 with headphones,
I just experimented a bit with some sounds and threw in some chords of CineOrch... 
and a couple of extra sounds also to make something

http://www.andreapriora.com/demos/BSG_Approach_v01-01.mp3 (www.andreapriora.com/demos/BSG_Approach_v01-01.mp3)

nothing special, just a quick and simple passage...
a little demo of how "natural" sounds CineOrch, IMHO.
(the mix is wrong, for example the Taiko Sticks sound too aloud...)


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## Cinesamples (Dec 23, 2010)

Regarding VAT indeed it is the law that it must be applied to any download to the EU. Companies not charging the tax are running the risk of potential legal troubles. The EU wants a piece of everything - we don't get any money out of it. I bet it's just a matter of tiMe before the USA figures out how to charge sales tax on downloads as well.


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## midphase (Dec 23, 2010)

Heyo Mike(s)....any update on the PDF's? Do you think they're coming? Even a basic manual with some info would be nice....ideally a PDF similar to the one that the Orchestral String Runs people have done would be awesome.

Let us know.


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## Cinesamples (Dec 23, 2010)

PDF will come but we are "closed" for Xmas for now. o-[][]-o o-[][]-o family time!


I thought I explained the low chords the rest are just traids and stacked octaves, hope that helps until we get back in town. What specifically do you guys wish to know? It's pretty simple standard Hollywood orchestration .


Merry xmas !!


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## midphase (Dec 23, 2010)

Mostly I'm confused about the keyswitches....


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## mikebarry (Dec 23, 2010)

Oh in that case there is a PDF guide to that type of stuff on our website :D


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## Cinesamples (Dec 23, 2010)

Hiya Kays, 

Sorry, guess you missed our previous post.

It's up on the cineorch website now. Here's the direct link: http://assets.cinesamples.com.s3.amazonaws.com/CineOrch_UserGuide.pdf

There is 1 keyswitch, and it's in the Tutti Chords patch. It's the low A and Bb on the piano. That switches between the two articulation modes:
• Stacc/Sustain
and
• Marcato


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## midphase (Dec 23, 2010)

Oh cool...thank you guys...I guess it probably wasn't ready to be included with the download a few days ago. But this is perfect (and I assume it is included with the new download version of CineOrch).

Thanks! You may now resume your Xmas break!


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## Alumiel (Dec 23, 2010)

Here is my point of view.

As a hobbyist trying to let out of some steam with music without deeper knowledge of music theory, CineOrch is a bliss for me. To someone who is not classilcy trained musician, trying to get that Williamsesque sound of of every tune which comes out from Yours Truly, this is, at least for me, quicker learning tool to understand underlying orchestration in composition.

Now I don´t have to lay down dozens of tracks with every section in orchestra to get an idea how it would sound with a "real" orchestra. I admit that this is much more quicker way of doing things, but I don´t care because I´m using this library to actually learn things just as M. Barry has done in his studies. This is a THE time saver! I also ordered Deep Percussion Beds also to get my ideas from my mind to sequencer more quickly as Barry suggested in the early postings 

This library is essential tool for me to study chord progressions for example. And therefore I would like to share my two cents with audio clip. All sounds are out of the box without any MIDI gimmicks, and let me remind you, only four tracks, which took me under 10 minutes to achive (...yes I´m noob). Libraries are CineOrch (low chords+tutti octaves)+Deep Percussion Beds+Voices of Passion.

Here´s the link: http://soundcloud.com/Alumiel/

I would like to thank both Patti and Barry for excellent product, which has brought some new inner warmth to my composition struggles in my life. Thank you guys, I wish the very best Christmas and happy new year to you and your families and of course for the rest of the forum users.

-Alumiel


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## handz (Dec 23, 2010)

Sorry Alumiel but this is wrong IMO

As Im too mostly hobbyist and never had musical training of any kind - I try to learn the basics not by overcome them using loops and preorchestrated patches. 
I think tools like cineorch are not for people like you but for the composers who know what they doing and it just speed them up. 

You should avoid things like this if you ever want to learn basics, when you will relay on stuff like that you never make progress.

just my 2 cents


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## Alumiel (Dec 23, 2010)

Handz, 

Maybe you got me wrong. I´m very passionate in what I´m trying to do. And actually I have composed that little demo tune before with dozens of tracks to get it sound I had in my mind and I had to really try to get certain feeling out of my sketch which I had in my mind (...which I didn´t mention, I can´t make a theme in ten minutes!). What I´m trying to say is that I usually try to do things in my mind beforehand, then study it thoroughly (no quick escapes here, no matter the tool), then sketch it to sequencer as quickly as I can before it slips from my mind. I can´t read or write notes, so I can´t sketch it on napkin as it comes, so I had to make tedious job before, but now I can sketch things out much more quickly without napkins  About being passionate about something, you somehow always try to get into the bottom of it, and no matter what, you just automatically learn shedloads of stuff while you´re at it. Actually I would like to hear how some of the pros handles their thinking process from simple idea to a full composition.

-Alumiel


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## synergy543 (Dec 23, 2010)

Mike & Mike,

You should add a "rest" note (maybe in the center?). Otherwise, people might not hit it. (not a joke).

Also, you should simplify the manual. Maybe simply put "MOVE MOD WHEEL" in bold and big red letters (without other complicated text).

0oD


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## Alumiel (Dec 23, 2010)

:lol: made me do barrels!

-Alumiel


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## Justus (Dec 29, 2010)

This lib is fantastic and I would love to see a sequel in the (near) future.
What about Symphobia style section legati? Chamber Strings chords? String Quartet chords?


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## DKeenum (Dec 29, 2010)

I picked this up Monday. Wow! Very nice job guys!


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## MMMusic (Dec 29, 2010)

Please please please please! Let's have an upgrade with diminished chords - can't remember when I even wrote a piece without o or ø.

cheers

Mathias


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## gsilbers (Dec 29, 2010)

[quote:07bb223dbe="Alumiel @ Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:58 pm"]Here is my point of view.

As a hobbyist trying to let out of some steam with music without deeper knowledge of music theory, CineOrch is a bliss for me. To someone who is not classilcy trained musician, trying to get that Williamsesque sound of of every tune which comes out from Yours Truly, this is, at least for me, quicker learning tool to understand underlying orchestration in composition.

Now I don´t have to lay down dozens of tracks with every section in orchestra to get an idea how it would sound with a "real" orchestra. I admit that this is much more quicker way of doing things, but I don´t care because I´m using this library to actually learn things just as M. Barry has done in his studies. This is a THE time saò  ÿ   Ë4  ÿ   Ë7u  ÿ   Ë7Õ  ÿ   ËAø  ÿ   ËB  ÿ   ËT<  ÿ   ËTs  ÿ   ËWº  ÿ   ËWÿ  ÿ   ËY  ÿ   ËYÆ  ÿ   Ë[  ÿ   Ë[¤  ÿ   Ëcï  ÿ   ËdD  ÿ   ËqI  ÿ   Ëqƒ  ÿ   ËqÚ  ÿ   Ërg  ÿ   Ësi  ÿ   Ës•  ÿ   Ët  ÿ   ËtÜ  ÿ   Ëv	  ÿ   Ëvd  ÿ   ËzV  ÿ   Ëz›  ÿ   Ë{0  ÿ   Ë{†  ÿ   Ë|  ÿ   Ë|@  ÿ   Ë|·  ÿ   Ë}-  ÿ   Ë}§  ÿ   Ë~'  ÿ   ËÕ  ÿ   Ë‚6  ÿ   Ë¦D  ÿ   Ë¦Ú  ÿ   Ë·  ÿ   Ë·y  ÿ   Ë¼—  ÿ   Ë½€  ÿ   ËÊ‹  ÿ   ËÊÎ  ÿ   ÌG  ÿ   Ìð  ÿ   Ì×  ÿ   ÌÝ  ÿ   Ìå  ÿ   Ìï  ÿ   Ì  ÿ   Ì  ÿ   Ì1j  ÿ   Ì1²  ÿ   Ì3F  ÿ   Ì3†  ÿ   Ì><  ÿ   Ì>Ž  ÿ   Ì@c  ÿ   ÌAS  ÿ   ÌEn  ÿ   ÌEÊ  ÿ   ÌF2  ÿ   ÌF°  ÿ   Ì]ð  ÿ   Ì^g  ÿ   Ì^Ó  ÿ   Ì_<  ÿ   Ì`F  ÿ   Ì`¾  ÿ   Ìa!  ÿ   Ìa\  ÿ   Ì[email protected]  ÿ   ÌcU  ÿ   Ìw"  ÿ   ÌwO  ÿ   ÌN  ÿ   Ìè  ÿ   ÌŒƒ  ÿ   ÌŒ–  ÿ   Ì•  ÿ   Ì•‰  ÿ   Ì˜l  ÿ   Ì˜š  ÿ   Ì°Ì  ÿ   Ì±  ÿ   Ì²½  ÿ   Ì³3  ÿ   Ì»é  ÿ   Ì¼  ÿ   ÌÃ  ÿ   ÌÃ“  ÿ   ÌÈ  ÿ   ÌÈ5  ÿ   ÌÞº  ÿ   ÌÞÎ  ÿ   Ìê®  ÿ   ÌêÌ  ÿ   Íx  ÿ   Í“  ÿ   Íh  ÿ   Í¯  ÿ   Í Ò  ÿ   Í!<  ÿ   Í#@  ÿ   Í#e  ÿ   ÍF  ÿ   ÍF/  ÿ   ÍUR  ÿ   ÍUb  ÿ   ÍkØ              ò


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## Hannes_F (Dec 29, 2010)

gsilbers @ Wed Dec 29 said:


> its awesome. sounds very good.



u r serious?


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## Hannes_F (Dec 29, 2010)

gsilbers @ Thu Dec 30 said:


> dunno if YOU dont like it or u think im being sarcastic.



After reading an "awesome, sounds very good" comment I decided to listen and admit I had expected something that sounds, well, awesome. A nine out of ten at least. Maybe it is a language problem.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 29, 2010)

No, I was definetely referring to sound and execution of this particular tune ... that I listened to after an enthusiastic comment.

Hey, it seems this is just a minority opinion here, so don't worry. I'm not that important.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 29, 2010)

Oh, my bad - thought you meant the library itself. Peace, goodwill etc.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 30, 2010)

Dave Connor @ Wed Dec 29 said:


> Just having a little fun. It's collage' than really. Sort of pasting pre-existing colors together in your own way. Maybe you just hope a creative impulse doesn't come over you if you want to move your inner or outer voices. I would find that extraordinarily painful. Like being a chef and all I could do was determine in what order people ate a precooked meal that I had nothing to do with.



It's an inexpensive product intended for a specific use. You use it for what it does, if you need to do something else, you use your other orchestral libraries. Of course it's not going to be that useful if it's the _only_ orchestral library you own but that's not going to be the case for anyone composing for a living.

To return to your chef analogy, I see it more as buying a Curry powder made of a bunch of ingredients mixed together - even if you have all those separate ingredients, that doesn't change the fact that the premixed version can be convenient and useful.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 30, 2010)

My point is it's usefulness for composition. It may be useful in other ways (as people have mentioned - saving time.) But as soon as you write a melody over it you cannot compose against that melody with any of the voices in the chord but merely lift your finger and set it down on another single key/chord. So that's a bit rough on the composition process - a valid point. There are other valid points here no doubt but which cannot negate my point. 

But hey, just some more sessions for even just sustained tones of all the instruments used and you could obey the numerous impulses of the compositional process and have quite a good sound.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 30, 2010)

It's usefulness is for tuttis and for the chords that are included - once you need something beyond that, you use a different library. If you don't ever use those chords or use full orchestra tuttis, obviously it's not going to be that useful to you. I would think it's pretty obvious that it's designed to be a tool to serve a fairly narrow purpose well, not try and be a full orchestral solution.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 30, 2010)

I hear you but how do you match things sonically? How do you come and go from using those? I think the answer is that you don't really. Which is just to say that it is pretty limited and the guys who created it agree I'm sure. It's cool and its fun and may be great for certain things. I'm just pointing out that it's not really a compositional tool but sort of collage' material.


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 30, 2010)

Dave Connor @ Thu Dec 30 said:


> I hear you but how do you match things sonically? How do you come and go from using those?



This is my exact concern, and I would LOVE to hear some demos of going from a full orchestral library, into CineOrch, and back out again. Unfortunately I doubt I'll hear this before the pre-order period, which is a shame. But I'm tired of buying tools only to find out they dont fit my needs as well as I thought. So on the sidelines I sit. :| 

I wish CineOrch would provide a one chord demo and I could try this out myself. Any chance of that happening?


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2010)

JT3_Jon @ Thu Dec 30 said:


> Dave Connor @ Thu Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I hear you but how do you match things sonically? How do you come and go from using those?
> ...



Isn't that true of any similar product? Symphobia, for example? I don't hear a whole lot of people complaining about the effort it takes to transition in and out of Symphobia tuttis.

In my view, at this price, this product is a no brainer. It's not the be all or end all of anything, but like Hollywood winds or the new string runs library or Symphobia, it's a handy-dandy tool that will find a use in your arsenal. I like it a lot.


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## lee (Dec 30, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 30 said:


> Isn't that true of any similar product? Symphobia, for example? I don't hear a whole lot of people complaining about the effort it takes to transition in and out of Symphobia tuttis.



I think Cineorch sounds great, and will be of use for many.

But Symphobia provides with ensemble patches so you can blend those with other libraries, making the transitions in and out of the tuttis sound more seamless.

/Johnny


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 30, 2010)

Dave Connor @ Thu Dec 30 said:


> I hear you but how do you match things sonically? How do you come and go from using those? I think the answer is that you don't really. Which is just to say that it is pretty limited and the guys who created it agree I'm sure. It's cool and its fun and may be great for certain things. I'm just pointing out that it's not really a compositional tool but sort of collage' material.



I don't really agree. No-one on this thread has commented on the little example piece I did (oh, er, maybe that's telling!)

http://www.box.net/shared/kt7je10fvr

It was a short, deliberate exercise in composition and blending. 45 mins all in I think it was, pretty much on a first touch with the library. The low chords patch I do find inspiring to play, but I was aware I'd need to blend it, work it in a template. So I played some nice sounding chord progressions, came up with a melody over the top (more John Barry than Howard Shore in this case, shamelessly going OTT on LASS portamento), then consciously broke out of Low Chords for the ending. The transition isn't exactly silky smooth... actually I'd like to spend a little more time on it to practice with some other patches / orchestrations that might work better. But to be honest... at a TV level I think it works pretty well even in its rough state to be honest.

But the main point is - that melody isn't a line I'd have written without CineOrch, and if I do say so myself I rather like it. It's an unconventional composition aid, but a valid one. I think, flaws and all, my little exercise demonstrates its good for more than collage stuff.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2010)

I listened. I agree...there is an ease and usefulness, and some good inspiration to be had with those patches.


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## gsilbers (Dec 30, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Thu Dec 30 said:


> Dave Connor @ Thu Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I hear you but how do you match things sonically? How do you come and go from using those? I think the answer is that you don't really. Which is just to say that it is pretty limited and the guys who created it agree I'm sure. It's cool and its fun and may be great for certain things. I'm just pointing out that it's not really a compositional tool but sort of collage' material.



I don't really agree. No-one on this thread has commented on the little example piece I did (oh, er, maybe that's telling!)

http://www.box.net/shared/kt7je10fvr

It was a short, deliberate exercise in composition and blending. 45 mins all in I think it was, pretty much on a first touch with the library. The low chords patch I do find inspiring to play, but I was aware I'd need to blend it, work it in a template. So I played some nice sounding chord progressions, came up with a melody over the top (more John Barry than Howard Shore in this case, shamelessly going OTT on LASS portamento), then consciously broke out of Low Chords for the ending. The transition isn't exactly silky smooth... actually I'd like to spend a little more time on it to practice with some other patches / orchestrations that might work better. But to be honest... at a TV level I think it works pretty well even in its rough state to be honest.

But the main point is - that melody isn't a line I'd have written without CineOrch, and if I do say so myself I rather like it. It's an unconventional composition aid, but a valid one. I think, flaws and al®     w’     w“     w”     w•     w–     w—     w˜     ò˜     ò™     òš     ò›     òœ     ò    h¨    h©    hª    h«    h¬    h­    h®    h¯    h° 


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 31, 2010)

OK, here's a version 2 of Piz Gloria, focusing on the blending:

http://www.box.net/shared/mceo4u2tvj

The transition comes at 36 seconds between the Low Chords patch and mockup (feels strange writing that, a mockup of a sample!)

I've also added, after the end of the piece, a C maj chord with C in the root, first with CineOrch then (half way through the chord) a mockup with other libs. Certainly not identical, but I think this is close enough to be able to transition in and out if needed.

Here's what I used for the reconstruction:

Brass - Westgate sus 4x Horns + Symphobia Brass Ens Dyn for bass

Strings - LASS sordinos

Winds - Hollywoodwinds Tutti (what else?!)

In the Piz Gloria piece I also added a little regular Symphobia strings sus dyn in the bass, blended with the LASS basses. I found the bigger Symph low strings patches were a little too overpowering for this use (you can hear them blaring out in v1... ok if you needed an over-dramatic moment!)


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## Polarity (Dec 31, 2010)

very nice piece Noiseboy!


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 31, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Thu Dec 30 said:


> I'm in for the sequel, you marketing wizards.



Heck, I'd take ten more volumes of this at this price over Symphobia any day.


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## dcoscina (Dec 31, 2010)

I have CineOrch and Symphobia 1 & 2. I like them all and find all of them useful. I think these are good "fill in the holes" libraries, when you're hearing a specific sound and need this to compliment your VSL/EW/LASS libraries.


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## tripit (Dec 31, 2010)

I was really on the fence about this one. It sounds nice, probably fun to use - but the blending is an issue for me, and I'm really trying to steer away from pre arranged orchestra now more than ever. It's not as fulfilling as an artist and composer to me, and I think I would end up spending as much time if not more trying to work around the limitations and trying to get it to blend than just bang out the parts. 
Gonna sit this one out as well. But, I'm thinking about picking up the Cinetoms 2 before the clock hits midnight.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 1, 2011)

tripit @ Sat Jan 01 said:


> I was really on the fence about this one. It sounds nice, probably fun to use - but the blending is an issue for me, and I'm really trying to steer away from pre arranged orchestra now more than ever. It's not as fulfilling as an artist and composer to me, and I think I would end up spending as much time if not more trying to work around the limitations and trying to get it to blend than just bang out the parts.
> Gonna sit this one out as well. But, I'm thinking about picking up the Cinetoms 2 before the clock hits midnight.



Of course I wouldn't seek to dissuade you from moving away from pre-arranged orchestra, that's your direction and good for you. Just wanted to comment generally though that having spent a little time on the blending question on my template, I'm pretty confident I can use the library at will without worrying getting in and / or out - I just know what patches to go for now, which is kinda a one-time deal. From my (limited) experience, I won't need to worry about the process taking a long time and negating the speed benefits of CineOrch, the sections around the new library should take no longer than any other section.


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