# VSL : Synchron Woodwinds RELEASED !



## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

Hi,

I'm really looking forward to see *VSL Synchron Woodwinds* released this year. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Zanshin (Nov 9, 2021)

LOL!


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> LOL!


Haha.. You mean to tell me you are not ?


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## Zanshin (Nov 9, 2021)

I'm guessing next year. I am excited. I'd rather we started seeing some sordino expansions for Pro and Elite first though


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## John Longley (Nov 9, 2021)

Dream On…


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## FireGS (Nov 9, 2021)

My bet is Harp and Solo strings before Woodwinds. Prove me wrong, @Ben


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## Zanshin (Nov 9, 2021)

Harp is a good bet!

But I think they will release Sordino expansion for Synchron-ized Solo Strings before they do a Synchron Solo. Not sure why they didn't release it with the other Sordino expansions (Chamber & Appassionata back in June). That doesn't exclude it being before WW though. They do have some WWs already recorded in Synchron (BBO).


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

imho. It only makes sense that they will release Synchron Woodwinds this year. It's a major part of the Synchron Orchestra that's missing, they can release Sordino Strings, Solo Strings, .etc., once they at least have the foundation of the Synchron Orchestra. Without Synchron Woodwinds, the foundation of the orchestra is incomplete.

At least that's the way I see it making sense in terms of priorities.

We shall see if VSL have this point of view, and the way they plan to move forward in terms of development.


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> My bet is Harp and Solo strings before Woodwinds. Prove me wrong, @Ben


I hope not. 

Synchron Woodwinds make more sense to be next. But who knows. I might be wrong.


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## Zedcars (Nov 9, 2021)

Yeah, Synchron-ized Woodwinds are nice to have (especially the recorded arps and runs) but there is still something rather unfocused about them compared to the instruments recorded within the Synchron Stage.

I’d also like to see Syn muted brass but I’m guessing that’s at least a year away unfortunately.


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> still something rather unfocused about them compared to the instruments recorded within the Synchron Stage.


+1

I'm quite confident that Synchron Woodwinds will sound amazing. Please VSL release them this year. They are the missing part of your Synchron orchestra's foundation.

Calling @Ben , should I stay optimistic that this will happen during 2021 ?


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## wlinart (Nov 9, 2021)

It's ready when it's ready, not when you hope it is 
It's no use to set a deadline yourself, and than be angry that the company doesn't make your imposed deadline, like you did with OT sine conversion, TSS, Pacific,...


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## Zedcars (Nov 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> +1
> 
> I'm quite confident that Synchron Woodwinds will sound amazing. Please VSL release them this year. They are the missing part of your Synchron orchestra's foundation.
> 
> Calling @Ben , should I stay optimistic that this will happen during 2021 ?


I’d be surprised if it was this year. My bet it will be Spring 2022.


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## william81723 (Nov 9, 2021)

I'm out of interest about Synchron series because their recordings are too wet and Synchron Stage is too big.
I love their detailed feature,so many articulations,and synchron player.
But I found that it often can't fit other instruments' spaces in mix.
I've sold them to others.
It's for traditional pieces but not for modern ones.
I hope they can continue to make dry instrument but many detailed things like Synchron series.

(That's ok too.Now there is TSS and will be Tokyo Scoring Woodwinds in the future.)


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

william81723 said:


> I'm out of interest about Synchron series because their recordings are too wet and Synchron Stage is too big.
> I love their detailed feature,so many articulations,and synchron player.
> But I found that it often can't fit other instruments' spaces in mix.
> I've sold them to others.
> ...


I tend to differ, I love Synchron Stage, and the libraries VSL is developing in it.

They can be made to sound quite dry, not sure what you are talking about.


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## Virtuoso (Nov 9, 2021)

I'm really looking forward to this. There's nothing else major that I'm waiting for really - Synchron Woodwinds feels like the last piece of the jigsaw!


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## william81723 (Nov 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> They can be made to sound quite dry, not sure what you are talking about.


Of course they have close mic,but we can still hear the room,the early reflections,and the tails.
They're beautiful libraries.If I just make only strings pieces or traditional orchestra,they will be the best choices.
However in my own case,I rarely do that.I like to mix different styles of music.
So... Synchron series are just not my things.They're still good and beautiful libraries.


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## Zedcars (Nov 9, 2021)

I really


Virtuoso said:


> I'm really looking forward to this. There's nothing else major that I'm waiting for really - Synchron Woodwinds feels like the last piece of the jigsaw!


Last major piece, but personally I feel like the brass is incomplete without a 3rd and 4th trumpet, 3rd and 4th Horn, at least 2 more tenor trombones and some muted brass. Also some recorded string runs would be nice like we got with the VI series. I wonder if recorded runs are harder to integrate if they are wet?


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## Geomir (Nov 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I tend to differ, I love Synchron Stage, and the libraries VSL is developing in it.
> 
> They can be made to sound quite dry, not sure what you are talking about.


You don't differ at all! I also love Synchron Stage (unless we both differ)! Also the "wetness" problem can always be eliminated (not completely, but up to a point) with a spot/close mic selection.

But I am thinking that Synchron-ized Woodwinds is a relatively new product, updated very recently, and if/when Synchron Woodwinds are released, the SY-ized version will be 100% redundant! 

If you notice, VSL is really careful so far not to make their older products redundant. You realize that when you see that all the Synchron libraries are in some way(s) different than the Synchron-ized libraries. Some of them similar, yes, but in the end they are not the same product. I.e. there is no Synchron-ized Brass, only Synchron Brass. Instead, there is the Synchron-ized Dimension Brass, a different library. There are no Synchron solo strings, only Synchron-ized ones. There are Synchron Pianos, but not Synchron-ized ones.

Of course, this will not be the case forever. I agree that a new Synchron Woodwinds library with the typical (which means extreme!) VSL quality is needed no matter what, it's coming in the future (but most probably not this year) and it will be among (if not THE) best sounding woodwinds library to date!


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

william81723 said:


> Of course they have close mic,but we can still hear the room,the early reflections,and the tails.
> They're beautiful libraries.If I just make only strings pieces or traditional orchestra,they will be the best choices.
> However in my own case,I rarely do that.I like to mix different styles of music.
> So... Synchron series are just not my things.They're still good and beautiful libraries.


As I mentioned they can sound pretty dry. Did you try some of the preset mixes to see how dry you can get them ? Not just using the Close/Solo Mics ?

Here is a fast test I did using the Sychron Elite Strings using the 'Close to Surround' mix Preset. Playing VLNS.1 Pizz. Not dry enough ?

View attachment Elite Pizz Test Acoustics(3).mp3



And here is a pic of the Mixer settings for this preset. Note how many mics are turned ON. Yet it still sounds very dry. Just make sure you turn OFF the Reverb.


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## muziksculp (Nov 9, 2021)

Geomir said:


> I agree that a new Synchron Woodwinds library with the typical (which means extreme!) VSL quality is needed no matter what, it's coming in the future (but most probably not this year) and it will be among (if not THE) best sounding woodwinds library to date!


Yup 

But I'm hoping it will show up this year. I know it might not, but I'm still a hopeful guy.


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## william81723 (Nov 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> As I mentioned they can sound pretty dry. Did you try some of the preset mixes to see how dry you can get them ? Not just using the Close/Solo Mics ?
> 
> Here is a fast test I did using the Sychron Elite Strings using the 'Close to Surround' mix Preset. Playing VLNS.1 Pizz. Not dry enough ?
> 
> View attachment Elite Pizz Test Acoustics(3).mp3


Yes,of course I've played this.We can hear how the early reflections affect the depth(or the distance) so much.It's hard to change its position in the mix.
If only listen to Synchron Stage,it's absolutely a beautiful space.
So as I mentioned,it's just not my thing.I often arrange Japanese style and small chamber pieces.

Exsamples:




I post some of my pieces here.
I'll delete them few hours later.(I don’t want to be recognized by my friends...haha)
(Deleted)


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## Zanshin (Nov 10, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> I really
> 
> Last major piece, but personally I feel like the brass is incomplete without a 3rd and 4th trumpet, 3rd and 4th Horn, at least 2 more tenor trombones and some muted brass. Also some recorded string runs would be nice like we got with the VI series. I wonder if recorded runs are harder to integrate if they are wet?


Have you tried Dimension Brass? There's a video with Stephen Limbaugh showing how he used SB and DB brass together (Jurassic Park mock up). The two together are pretty awesome. You can demo the SE version for free right now.


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## Zedcars (Nov 10, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Have you tried Dimension Brass? There's a video with Stephen Limbaugh showing how he used SB and DB brass together (Jurassic Park mock up). The two together are pretty awesome. You can demo the SE version for free right now.


Thank you. Yes, I do have that library. I would much prefer muted brass recorded in the Synchron Stage tbh. I’ll give it another look but wasn’t too happy last time I tried to use it with MIR.


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## Zanshin (Nov 10, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Thank you. Yes, I do have that library. I would much prefer muted brass recorded in the Synchron Stage tbh. I’ll give it another look but wasn’t too happy last time I tried to use it with MIR.


Me too for SB mutes! DB does have a different and complementary flavor though. More nimble generally, and WAGNER TUBAS :D


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## RSK (Nov 10, 2021)

Geomir said:


> But I am thinking that Synchron-ized Woodwinds is a relatively new product, updated very recently, and if/when Synchron Woodwinds are released, the SY-ized version will be 100% redundant!


I bought Synchron-ized WW recently and probably will not buy the Synchron version when it comes out. One, I have trouble imagining it sounding that much better and two, I don't use woodwinds enough to justify it. Synchron Strings Pro, Synchron Brass, and Synchron-ized WW is a solid combination that sounds great. 

But what do I know? I think the BBO libraries are enough for orchestral percussion.


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## holywilly (Nov 10, 2021)

It’s the complex feeling, I’ve been rocking VSL VI woodwinds for almost a decade and still going strong. However the woodwinds from BBO didn’t get much love in terms of timbre, and I know the winds pack will be included in the Synchron Woodwinds package, just like Brass and Percussions. 

Now I have everything Synchron except the winds, I truly wish the Synchron Woodwinds deliver detailed and pristine quality of solo wind instruments, and please do include bass flute.


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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2021)

Can any say what the dimensions of the Synchron Stage are, and what the dimensions of Abbey Road Studio One Stage are?


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## Zedcars (Nov 10, 2021)

RSK said:


> I bought Synchron-ized WW recently and probably will not buy the Synchron version when it comes out. One, I have trouble imagining it sounding that much better and two, I don't use woodwinds enough to justify it. Synchron Strings Pro, Synchron Brass, and Synchron-ized WW is a solid combination that sounds great.
> 
> But what do I know? I think the BBO libraries are enough for orchestral percussion.


I doubt a Synchron WW library would have arps and runs which are great to have in the Synchronized WWs. I'd love it if they did though. I think Synchron WW would be a more focused sound.

I also think it's odd that in the Synchronized WW Clarinet 1 doesn't have any vibrato control whereas Clarinet 2 does.


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## Ben (Nov 10, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> Can any say what the dimensions of the Synchron Stage are








FACILITY - SynchronStage Vienna







www.synchronstage.com


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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2021)

Ben said:


> FACILITY - SynchronStage Vienna
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you please just type out the rough W x L x H ?


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## Ben (Nov 10, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> Can you please just type out the rough W x L x H ?


Can you just click a link and read the first sentence of the second textblock?


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## holywilly (Nov 10, 2021)

@Ben 
We also need a bass oboe.


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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2021)

Ben said:


> Can you just click a link and read the first sentence of the second textblock?


I do not find the W x L x H info on that page, and if I try to download the floorplan it wont download due to a security risk???

So, please if it is not to much of an inconvenience, please just type it out for me and future readers.


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## Ben (Nov 10, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> I do not find the W x L x H info on that page, and if I try to download the floorplan it wont download due to a security risk???
> 
> So, please if it is not to much of an inconvenience, please just type it out for me and future readers.


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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2021)

Ben said:


>


Dear Ben,

We love you, but that is not the W x L x H info, that is information about the square feet of the room.


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## wcreed51 (Nov 10, 2021)




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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2021)

wcreed51 said:


>


It does not work. Security issues with the link.


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## Ben (Nov 10, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> Dear Ben,
> 
> We love you, but that is not the W x L x H info, that is information about the square feet of the room.


Sorry, my bad - I'm handling too much at the same time right now  
16m x 30m / 19m x 30m






We are fixing the links, it's a minor issue, but the donwloads are of course safe.


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## Ben (Nov 10, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> I also think it's odd that in the Synchronized WW Clarinet 1 doesn't have any vibrato control whereas Clarinet 2 does.


Well, vibrato on a clarinet is not really common in classical music (to my knowledge), and Clarinet 1 focuses on this style. Clarinet 2 also includes modern techniques.


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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2021)

Thanks for the info Ben. 

So it looks like the dimensions of the Synchron Stage are roughly:

62' W x 98' L x 40' H

and the dimensions of Abbey Road Studio One Stage are roughly:

55' W x 92' L x 40' H


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## ptram (Nov 10, 2021)

holywilly said:


> We also need a bass oboe.


Synchronised Woodwinds do have one!

Paolo


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## ptram (Nov 10, 2021)

Ben said:


> 16m x 30m / 19m x 30m


That's the equivalent of three volleyball courts!

Paolo


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## Ben (Nov 10, 2021)

ptram said:


> That's the equivalent of three volleyball courts!
> 
> Paolo


Well, yes you could play volleyball in there - at least regarding dimensions.
It's an awesome room, just standing there and enjoying the atmosphere is magical.


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## Geomir (Nov 10, 2021)

RSK said:


> I bought Synchron-ized WW recently and probably will not buy the Synchron version when it comes out. One, I have trouble imagining it sounding that much better and two, I don't use woodwinds enough to justify it. Synchron Strings Pro, Synchron Brass, and Synchron-ized WW is a solid combination that sounds great.
> 
> But what do I know? I think the BBO libraries are enough for orchestral percussion.


I am sure about the quality of VSL woodwinds. Even the Synchron-ized Special Edition woodwinds, that are the only ones I have used, sound much better to my ears than anything else I have used.

But I can only guess that when the Synchron Woodwinds are released, there will be a very tempting "upgrade" path for the owners of the Synchon-ized woodwinds. You will not have to pay the full price, so then you will know better if you are going to buy them or not (or you will stay true to your words).


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## muziksculp (Nov 10, 2021)

Geomir said:


> But I can only guess that when the Synchron Woodwinds are released, there will be a very tempting "upgrade" path for the owners of the Synchon-ized woodwinds.


I hope so.


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## Zanshin (Nov 10, 2021)

I doubt there will be a "upgrade" path for Synchon-ized Woodwinds. They have not done anything like that before - these are new recordings. Nothing like that for Synchron Brass for example. We can assume the BBO winds will get a slight discount assuming those recordings are used in the package.


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## muziksculp (Nov 10, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I doubt there will be a "upgrade" path for Synchon-ized Woodwinds. They have not done anything like that before - these are new recordings. Nothing like that for Synchron Brass for example. We can assume the BBO winds will get a slight discount assuming those recordings are used in the package.


Yeah, that's my guess too. But hoping that they offer some additional discount for Synchronized Woodwinds owners would be a nice bonus.


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## Zanshin (Nov 10, 2021)

Yeah, I mean I don't disagree - just being realistic


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## Geomir (Nov 10, 2021)

I think they will. Mainly because this will be the first VSL library that would make another of their libraries 100% redundant.

We can continue this thread and make hundreds of posts:

- I think they will
- I don't think they will
- I think they will
- I don't think they will
...
...
...

until @Ben gets so tired of that and give us his own valuable opinion!


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## RSK (Nov 10, 2021)

Geomir said:


> I think they will. Mainly because this will be the first VSL library that would make another of their libraries 100% redundant.
> 
> We can continue this thread and make hundreds of posts:
> 
> ...


I think Ben is the company mushroom when it comes to product development; they keep him in the dark and feed him bullshit.


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## Zanshin (Nov 10, 2021)

He won't say anything that would confirm the existence of the library lol.


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## muziksculp (Nov 10, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> He won't say anything that would confirm the existence of the library lol.


He is not allowed to. But I love surprises


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## RSK (Nov 10, 2021)

Hopefully he's not offended by my comment. I'm quite fond of Ben and the patient, helpful work he does on this forum.


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## Ben (Nov 10, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> He won't say anything that would confirm the existence of the library lol.


Exactly 


RSK said:


> Hopefully he's not offended by my comment. I'm quite fond of Ben and the patient, helpful work he does on this forum.


Don't worry, I'm German, but still have a little sense of humor 

Guess who is testing and QAing new libraries and products (and no, I won't spoil the thing I'm testing right now 😜)


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## RSK (Nov 10, 2021)

Ben said:


> Guess who is testing and QAing new libraries and products (and no, I won't spoil the thing I'm testing right now 😜)


Now you're just being a tease


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## Zedcars (Nov 10, 2021)

Ben said:


> Exactly
> 
> Don't worry, I'm German, but still have a little sense of humor
> 
> Guess who is testing and QAing new libraries and products (and no, I won't spoil the thing I'm testing right now 😜)


Is it that new Synchron Alpine Horn library that everyone’s been desperately waiting for?


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## Noeticus (Nov 10, 2021)

I await "Synchron Woodwinds", but I must say that I still find the Synchon-ized Woodwinds to be the best I have ever heard. 

The Flute 1 with vibrato is pure heaven!


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## Zanshin (Nov 10, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> I await "Synchron Woodwinds", but I must say that I still find the Synchon-ized Woodwinds to be the best I have ever heard. Flute 1 with vibrato is pure heaven!


Meee tooo


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## ptram (Nov 10, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Is it that new Synchron Alpine Horn library that everyone’s been desperately waiting for?


You are kidding, but I need a few of these, sampled as VSL knows, for a Bach's piece!

Paolo

(EDIT: I currently own a couple sampled ones; the one by Sonokinetic is very good, but unfortunately limited in the root key offered.)


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## FireGS (Nov 10, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Is it that new Synchron Alpine Horn library that everyone’s been desperately waiting for?


Yo, not gonna lie, I know a bunch of Alphornists. (Switzerland)

@Ben lets set this up. LOL


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## Petrucci (Nov 10, 2021)

Synchron Woodwinds would be awesome though I love Synchronized ones a lot and still haven't used all the Packs from recent release as well as Synchronized Historic Woodwinds so still a lot of fun ahead..! I'm expecting an expansion of BBO Zodiac though... I don't believe that VSL only recorded those patches for BBO Zodiac, I believe there are more there, hehe..)))


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## ChickenAndARoll (Nov 10, 2021)

Noeticus said:


> The Flute 1 with vibrato is pure heaven!


The composer for this game used the VI Special Edition 1 and 2, and I bought the Synchron-ized Woodwinds simply because of how good the flute sounds here!


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## dunamisstudio (Nov 10, 2021)

What clued us in that Synchron Woodwinds are next? Other than process of elimination. From the Synchronized series, they could still do Woodwinds or Solo Strings.


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## muziksculp (Nov 21, 2021)

Posted on VSL's Facebook Posts. (scroll down a bit on their posts section). 

https://www.facebook.com/viennasymphoniclibrary


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## Petrucci (Nov 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Posted on VSL's Facebook Posts. (scroll down a bit on their posts section).
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/viennasymphoniclibrary



I wonder what that means..?!))


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## muziksculp (Nov 21, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> I wonder what that means..?!))


No clue. But, It could be a hint that Synchron Woodwinds is not too far away, which is what I would like to see released during December. But again that could be a hint at something else.


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## Petrucci (Nov 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> No clue. But, It could be a hint that Synchron Woodwinds is not too far away, which is what I would like to see released during December. But again that could be a hint at something else.


Yeeeahh, let's wait then!))


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## Ben (Nov 21, 2021)

I don't want to be mean, but I'm sitting here right now, working on presets for "something"


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## muziksculp (Nov 21, 2021)

Ben said:


> I don't want to be mean, but I'm sitting here right now, working on presets for "something"


Do you need to blow in that preset/s to make some noise ?


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## RSK (Nov 21, 2021)

Ben said:


> I don't want to be mean, but I'm sitting here right now, working on presets for "something"


Ben, if VSL releases Synchron WW this soon after I finally gave in and bought Synchron-ized WW, I'm going to fly to Austria and beat you all with a wet mop.


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## Zanshin (Nov 21, 2021)

RSK said:


> Ben, if VSL releases Synchron WW this soon after I finally gave in and bought Synchron-ized WW, I'm going to fly to Austria and beat you all with a wet mop.


I think we can assume, at a minimum, Synchron-ized WW will still be useful.


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## holywilly (Nov 21, 2021)

I’m still on the full VI woodwinds, they have been sitting in my template for decades. 

I wish my upcoming VSL purchase won’t crash my system, I’m still waiting my Mac Pro from repair, I hate being MAC-less.


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## muziksculp (Nov 21, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I’m still waiting my Mac Pro from repair, I hate being MAC-less.


🧡 my PC Pro


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## Petrucci (Nov 21, 2021)

Ben said:


> I don't want to be mean, but I'm sitting here right now, working on presets for "something"


C'mon, Ben, give us soooome hint pleaaase!!


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## Evans (Nov 21, 2021)

Synchron Strings Pro and Synchron Brass legato updates.


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## RSK (Nov 21, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I think we can assume, at a minimum, Synchron-ized WW will still be useful.


I'm obviously kidding.


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## Petrucci (Nov 21, 2021)

Evans said:


> Synchron Strings Pro and Synchron Brass legato updates.


The slurred legato update for Elite Strings was very useful so the same one for SSP would be awesome!)


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## muziksculp (Nov 21, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> The slurred legato update for Elite Strings was very useful so the same one for SSP would be awesome!)


Yes, sure that will be super useful. But that still leaves me wanting Synchron Woodwinds to show up in December.


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## mybadmemory (Nov 21, 2021)

I just love how @muziksculp is always looking forward to something. ☺️


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## smellypants (Nov 22, 2021)

Ben said:


> I don't want to be mean, but I'm sitting here right now, working on presets for "something"


Hey Ben I understand VSL doesn't release info about products before they are released, timescales etc.

But can you say if the overall scope of the Synchron series is intended to be similar to the VI series or not... Mostly in terms of the amount of instruments you guys intend to provide.

I would love if the completed Synchron series would include, choirs, acoustic guitars, solo strings, mutes, harp, Historic Winds etc. Similar in scope to the completed VI series.

With VSL's comprehensive sampling and attention to detail it would be the tits!


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## Marcus Millfield (Nov 22, 2021)

smellypants said:


> ... it would be the tits!



Seconded and 😂


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## Ben (Nov 22, 2021)

smellypants said:


> Hey Ben I understand VSL doesn't release info about products before they are released, timescales etc.
> 
> But can you say if the overall scope of the Synchron series is intended to be similar to the VI series or not... Mostly in terms of the amount of instruments you guys intend to provide.
> 
> ...


Of course we are going to release more libraries!
The Synchron Stage opens up so many possibilities.


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## holywilly (Dec 8, 2021)

couple hours left to the new products or sales announcement, what could it be??


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 8, 2021)

holywilly said:


> couple hours left to the new products or sales announcement, what could it be??


Where did you get that info?


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## holywilly (Dec 8, 2021)

Pure guessing.


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## ModalRealist (Dec 8, 2021)

Ben said:


> The Synchron Stage opens up so many possibilities.


Synchron 50 Crumhorn Ensemble


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 8, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Pure guessing.


Is it too soon for a "I'm looking forward to the MIR3D, Synchron Woodwinds and Synchron Harps release on 9th of December 2021, 12-ish p.m. CET (local Austrian time)." thread?


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## Zanshin (Dec 8, 2021)

I think we won't see what's up until tomorrow. Current sale is through today.


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## mixedmoods (Dec 8, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Is it too soon for a "I'm looking forward to the MIR3D, Synchron Woodwinds and Synchron Harps release on 8th of December 2021, 12-ish p.m. CET (local Austrian time)." thread?


They already mentioned that MIR3D wont happen this year anymore.
But other than that, a new Library is totally possible – Ben even teased that he is working finishing touches of a new product. 
I also think we might know more tomorrow around noon when their sale is ending ...


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 8, 2021)

mixedmoods said:


> They already mentioned that MIR3D wont happen this year anymore.
> But other than that, a new Library is totally possible – Ben even teased that he is working finishing touches of a new product.
> I also think we might know more tomorrow around noon when their sale is ending ...


Fixed the date on my post 😄


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## daviddln (Dec 8, 2021)

We will see tomorrow. But it's pretty rare they release new libraries in December. Usually, it's voucher time. But who knows. Fingers crossed.


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## Zanshin (Dec 8, 2021)

daviddln said:


> We will see tomorrow. But it's pretty rare they release new libraries in December. Usually, it's voucher time. But who knows. Fingers crossed.


I’ll take both please?!


----------



## mixedmoods (Dec 9, 2021)

Ok, so I afraid Audiodeluxe was a bit to early. (Sorry to spoil it here already Ben!) 









Vienna Synchron Woodwinds Standard Library


New Synchron Woodwinds New Synchron WoodwindsWhen renowned composer, orchestrator and conductor Conrad Pope stepped onto Stage A of Synchron Stage Vienna before it re-opened its doors back in 2015, he happily exclaimed that this was finally a scoring stage big and especially high enough for the...




www.audiodeluxe.com





Amazing!!! Can't wait to hear it later today!!


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

mixedmoods said:


> Ok, so I afraid Audiodeluxe was a bit to early. (Sorry to spoil it here already Ben!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whaaaaaaaat?!?!?)))))))


----------



## holywilly (Dec 9, 2021)

Damnnnnnnnnn!


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Dec 9, 2021)

Is ramen acceptable as Christmas dinner?


----------



## DJiLAND (Dec 9, 2021)

I need the courage to move just one finger now. Just one click…
Right after launch, there seems to be no Fl2, Ob2, Cl2, Bsn2, but that doesn't matter. i can wait...


----------



## prodigalson (Dec 9, 2021)

January 2022…


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

DJiLAND said:


> I need the courage to move just one finger now. Just one click…


Go!)))


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

"One of them is multi-instrumentalist Veronika Vitazkova. The accomplished flutist is an acclaimed master of folk instruments, such as the Slovak shepherd flutes fujara and koncovka."

I wander does it mean that we'll see some folk ethnic instruments in Synchron line in the future also..?))


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 9, 2021)

@muziksculp 🙂🥁🥁🥁


----------



## Michael Antrum (Dec 9, 2021)

Oh my, I am so glad I didn’t spend any money on the Berlin Series this BF……

Just the harp now (I am using the one in special editions for now)


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Oh my, I am so glad I didn’t spend any money on the Berlin Series this BF……
> 
> Just the harp now (I am using the one in special editions for now)


Here comes my real BF too lol)))


----------



## Michael Antrum (Dec 9, 2021)

Just getting a live feed from the hacked webcam of @muziksculp…..


----------



## smellypants (Dec 9, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Oh my, I am so glad I didn’t spend any money on the Berlin Series this BF……
> 
> Just the harp now (I am using the one in special editions for now)


And solo strings+Choir!!!


----------



## mixedmoods (Dec 9, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> Here comes my real BF too lol)))


To make this more attractive: The vouchers are back aswell!









Vienna Symphonic Library Buy 3 $100 Vouchers Get 1 FREE


Purchase 3 Vienna Vouchers and receive a 4th FREE! PROMOTIONAL DETAILS: Purchase 3 Vienna Vouchers and receive a 4th FREE! Please be sure to include your VSL Registered Email during checkout in the "Order Comments" section. The Vienna Symphonic Library is proud to offer new Vienna Vouchers! Just...




www.audiodeluxe.com


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

mixedmoods said:


> To make this more attractive: The vouchers are back aswell!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Magnificent!!!


----------



## Virtuoso (Dec 9, 2021)

> Flute 2, Oboe 2, Clarinet 2 and Bassoon 2 won't be ready for a release on December 9. Registered users of Synchron Woodwinds will receive the sample content of these instruments a bit later.


Why release if it’s not ready?


----------



## prodigalson (Dec 9, 2021)

mixedmoods said:


> To make this more attractive: The vouchers are back aswell!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m not familiar with the VSL vouchers, does this mean that you could buy 3 vouchers and then use all 4 them all at once, for the Woodwinds for example, essentially getting $100 off the intro price??


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> I’m not familiar with the VSL vouchers, does this mean that you could buy 3 vouchers and then use all 4 them all at once, for the Woodwinds for example, essentially getting $100 off the intro price??


Exactly! The sum in the basket must be higher than the price of your vouchers, not lower, that's all.


Virtuoso said:


> Why release if it’s not ready?


To make a New Year Gift for us VSL fanboys)))))


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Dec 9, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> To make a New Year Gift for us VSL fanboys)))))


----------



## prodigalson (Dec 9, 2021)

Interesting that release supposedly today and Audiodeluxe are taking orders but the VSL website doesn’t have any mention of it yet…


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 9, 2021)

Man such great things to wake up to. I checked VSL and Best Service RIGHT when I woke up and nada... Santa put the presents in a different place haha. 

VOUCHERS AND WOODWINDS!!!!!!!11


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> Interesting that release supposedly today and Audiodeluxe are taking orders but the VSL website doesn’t have any mention of it yet…


They will place it there later today, I think..!))


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 9, 2021)

I don't understand the vouchers.. how this works.
so if i do 3x 100 e.g. i get 400 worth? (why does the quick buttons state 4x instead of 3x or 6x? 4x is not mentioned in the description, on amounts required)
maybe i am missing something? maybe i am thinking too deeply?


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 9, 2021)

The specs on SW are great  Happy there are no ribbon mics in the Full to entice me haha.


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

We just released Synchron Woodwinds - you can find my post here: https://vi-control.net/community/th...n-woodwinds-december-3-1-voucher-sale.118445/


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I don't understand the vouchers.. how this works.
> so if i do 3x 100 e.g. i get 400 worth? (why does the quick buttons state 4x instead of 3x or 6x? 4x is not mentioned in the description, on amounts required)
> maybe i am missing something? maybe i am thinking too deeply?


You add 4 to the basket and pay only for 3.


----------



## mixedmoods (Dec 9, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> Why release if it’s not ready?


Spitfire is doing the same with AROOF – they just made it their marketing strategy. 

But to be serious: It might be unusual for VSL, but it gives us the chance to get to know the library during the holiday season. To play with it and have fun. I think their intro pricing is a fair compensation of this if you ask me ...


----------



## prodigalson (Dec 9, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I don't understand the vouchers.. how this works.
> so if i do 3x 100 e.g. i get 400 worth? (why does the quick buttons state 4x instead of 3x or 6x? 4x is not mentioned in the description, on amounts required)
> maybe i am missing something? maybe i am thinking too deeply?


You may need to order the specific deal linked above as opposed to just buying 3 individual vouchers


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> You may need to order the specific deal linked above as opposed to just buying 3 individual vouchers


You just need to get 4 vouchers, the basket will automatically discount one to 0€.


----------



## lgmcben (Dec 9, 2021)

Ben said:


> You just need to get 4 vouchers, the basket will automatically discount one to 0€.








It seems there's a little bug here. Should be fixed easily though.


----------



## dts_marin (Dec 9, 2021)

It's happening!


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

lgmcben said:


> It seems there's a little bug here. Should be fixed easily though.


Thanks for noticing, we look into it asap - in the meantime, please enjoy the demos on the website: https://www.vsl.co.at/Synchron_Series/Synchron_Woodwinds#!Demos


----------



## prodigalson (Dec 9, 2021)

Just watching these videos, it seems these woodwinds are best in class from what I can tell. The depth of sampling and consistency combined with the sound make them the premier woodwind package on the market


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

lgmcben said:


> It seems there's a little bug here. Should be fixed easily though.


It should be fixed now!


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Dec 9, 2021)

Would calling it Synchron w00twinds be too much?


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

WOW ! 

Just having my first early morning coffee, and seeing VSL *Synchron Woodwinds* released put a big smile on my face, another early Christmas celebration for me this month. 

Thanks VSL


----------



## RSK (Dec 9, 2021)

Just a couple weeks after I caved in and bought the Synchron-ized version. 😖


----------



## holywilly (Dec 9, 2021)

Another instant buy! And I’m glad I got the BBO bundle.


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> WOW !
> 
> Just having my first early morning coffee, and seeing VSL *Synchron Woodwinds* released put a big smile on my face, another early Christmas celebration for me this month.
> 
> Thanks VSL


I bet that is the last coffee you’ll drink for a while haha. 7 December: Sonokinetic. 8 December: Tokyo Strings. 9 December: Synchron Woodwinds. At this rate today’s Spitfire announcement has got to be they’ll release AR Modular all at once.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> At this rate today’s Spitfire announcement has got to be they’ll release AR Modular all at once.


That would be a miracle. But I doubt it's AR Modular. 
Yes, it has been a super exciting early December so far.


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

RSK said:


> Just a couple weeks after I caved in and bought the Synchron-ized version. 😖


Well, they work pretty well together, and the SYNCHRON-ized variants are still great to get this super close sound, or use it in completely different ambiences.
So it will depend on your project what variant will be the better choice.


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

RSK said:


> Just a couple weeks after I caved in and bought the Synchron-ized version. 😖


Don't worry, Synchronized Woodwinds are one of the best woodwinds, so even if you get Synchron Woodwinds there will be a use for Synchronized Woodwinds for sure. And don't forget to check those unlooped legato articulations in Synchronized Woodwinds - they are so good for lyrical lines!


----------



## Michael Antrum (Dec 9, 2021)

Much as I want to order these right now, I'm currently in working abroad in Sierra Leone, and I can foresee the security department of my bank having an attack of the vapours if I use my card for an online purchase from here.

I must say, though, with the combination of the BBO libraries I have, the voucher offer and the fact that I am registered for tax, the full library will end up costing me a little over 300 euros, making it an insanely good deal.

Well done VSL, you have single handedly rescued BF this year !


----------



## RSK (Dec 9, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Much as I want to order these right now, I'm currently in working abroad in Sierra Leone, and I can foresee the security department of my bank having an attack of the vapours if I use my card for an online purchase from here.


LOL! Yeah, they probably would. Maybe you should call them first.....


----------



## Michael Antrum (Dec 9, 2021)

RSK said:


> LOL! Yeah, they probably would. Maybe you should call them first.....


Nah, I'll wait until I get back home to Blighty. 

It's not as if I'm going to download the library here.....


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

Hi @Ben,

Can I apply an Educational Discount towards the purchase of Synchron Woodwinds ?


----------



## Robert_G (Dec 9, 2021)

Has anyone downloaded yet and started playing around with these?


----------



## wcreed51 (Dec 9, 2021)

I'll be interested to hear from someone who buys this and also has the Synchronized Woodwinds to know if there's a compelling reason to upgrade.


----------



## AndyP (Dec 9, 2021)

With vouchers and my discount it will cost me 300€. Very tempting ....


----------



## ptram (Dec 9, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> … The accomplished flutist is an acclaimed master of folk instruments, such as the Slovak shepherd flutes fujara and koncovka."
> 
> I wander does it mean that we'll see some folk ethnic instruments in Synchron line in the future also..?))


It would be great. There are not many samples of the European folklore. Not perceived as "ethnic", it has not been recorded very much. And many of the performance practices are fading away with the performers.

Paolo


----------



## MelodicAdagio (Dec 9, 2021)

This will definitely have to wait for me. I got the Synchron-ized Woodwinds a few months back and, after more black Friday purchases than usual, I'm tapped out for now. VSL has always done a nice job with their woodwinds, though I'm curious as to how much of a difference there is between this and the Synchron-ized versions.


----------



## Studio E (Dec 9, 2021)

I am indeed a little disappointed that there isn't some special pricing for cross-grading from Synchron-ized Woodwinds. Not like it's not fair, but I just thought there would be something there to ease the blow, haha. 

That said, I didn't touch my Synchron-ized Woodwinds for a long time, and then I finally got them updated. When I opened them with the update, there is a mixer preset now for no processing or reverb at all, and that sounded really good running through some of my Alti-verb presets. I'm sure the new ones are awesome, but I like what I have quite a bit as well. What they lack for me, is a more up-close definition, but I did some experimentation with a bit of saturation and high-shelf boost (gently) and they are really close to what I would consider ideal at that point, or at least good enough to not spend a huge amount for a whole other set of winds. I'm not a great orchestral writer, so when I do reach for winds, I usually am wanting something really emotional, close and intimate. From the demos, they do really well in a standard classical setting. I'll listen for more demos to see what they might add for me.


----------



## Robert_G (Dec 9, 2021)

@Ben

Question about the Octave Runs and Arpeggios (High FX).

The VI series has the instruments separated in these articulations (which is ideal). I noticed that the instruments in the Synchron Woodwinds are lumped together.

For me, there are ZERO situations where I will ever need a run that has the flute, oboe, clarinet, and piccolo playing the same run simultaneously.

What are the chances we'll see these separated in a future addition to these woodwinds.


----------



## MelodicAdagio (Dec 9, 2021)

Studio E said:


> I am indeed a little disappointed that there isn't some special pricing for cross-grading from Synchron-ized Woodwinds. Not like it's not fair, but I just thought there would be something there to ease the blow, haha.


I too was hoping for a cross-grade type of discount for those who already have Synchron-ized Woodwinds. I was disappointed to see that it's still the same price. Granted, it's at an introductory discounted price right now, but it still would have been nice to get a little better deal as a reward for purchasing an earlier incarnation of the woodwinds, instead of choosing to just wait for the current release, given that it's not an inexpensive library.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm really looking forward to see *VSL Synchron Woodwinds* released this year.
> 
> ...


What are you doing on a woodwinds thread? There are no string libraries here. Move along..... 


Might be a good time to buy some vouchers?


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 9, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I doubt there will be a "upgrade" path for Synchon-ized Woodwinds. They have not done anything like that before - these are new recordings. Nothing like that for Synchron Brass for example. We can assume the BBO winds will get a slight discount assuming those recordings are used in the package.


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> The VI series has the instruments separated in these articulations (which is ideal). I noticed that the instruments in the Synchron Woodwinds are lumped together.
> 
> What are the chances we'll see these separated in a future addition to these woodwinds.


These are not lumped together, but actually are performing together during the recording session (BBO: solaris).

To perform runs I recommend the short articulations, as well as the Legato Fast and Legato Marc. start fast. And for spicy runs Fluttert. & trills -> Trills -> Legato


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

There are already some reviews available - I post these here, so you can discuss these without restrictions:


----------



## DarkShinryu (Dec 9, 2021)

A little woodwind centered mockup I did this evening to test the library.




This is the first time I didn't feel the need of EQing a woodwind library, to my ears the instruments sound lovely out of the box.


----------



## Robert_G (Dec 9, 2021)

Ben said:


> To perform runs I recommend the short articulations, as well as the Legato Fast and Legato Marc. start fast. And for spicy runs Fluttert. & trills -> Trills -> Legato


True, but they never sound as good as runs that are sampled as runs. That is one of the high points of the VI woodwinds. I was surprised to not see any for the Synchron Woodwinds.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

@Ben,

I posted this question earlier, but you must have missed it.

Is it possible to apply an educational discount to VSL Synchron Woodwinds ? or are the Vouchers the only option for now ?

Thanks


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Ben,
> 
> I posted this question earlier, but you must have missed it.
> 
> Is it possible to apply an educational discount to VSL Synchron Woodwinds ? or are the Vouchers the only option for now ?


Sorry, yes I've missed it (I took a small break).

No, you can't combine EDU discounts with other discounts. You will always get the better pricing (sales OR EDU discount pricing).

In general, the vouchers can be also used in combination with EDU discounts.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

Ben said:


> No, you can't combine EDU discounts with other discounts.


Do you mean the Intro Discount price, can't be combined with the EDU discount ? 

How do I find out what the EDU pricing is for Synchron Woodwinds ?


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Do you mean the Intro Discount price, can't be combined with the EDU discount ?
> 
> How do I find out what the EDU pricing is for Synchron Woodwinds ?


EDU pricing is 25%. If the intro discount is higher then 25% you will get the intro discount, if not, you will get the EDU discount.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

Ben said:


> EDU pricing is 25%. If the intro discount is higher then 25% you will get the intro discount, if not, you will get the EDU discount.


OK. Thanks


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

OK. I went for 2 X 400 Euro Vouchers. 

Giving me 8 X 100 Euro Vouchers, two of them are free


----------



## My Friends Call Me Rafael (Dec 9, 2021)

Ben said:


> EDU pricing is 25%. If the intro discount is higher then 25% you will get the intro discount, if not, you will get the EDU discount.


It seems like EDU Pricing is turned off for the entire site


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 9, 2021)

My Friends Call Me Rafael said:


> It seems like EDU Pricing is turned off for the entire site


Once it’s in your cart, it’s applied. But yeah the it’s not reflected in the “Your price” areas.


----------



## Virtuoso (Dec 9, 2021)

Well Santa really came through this year!  From the VSL Shameless Fanboyism thread back in September...



Virtuoso said:


> Dear Santa,
> My name is Andrew and I am 51 years old. I have been very good this year. For Christmas I would really really really like Synchron Woodwinds on iLok. Thx bai!


Kicking myself now though - I should have asked for Olivia Wilde.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 9, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Once it’s in your cart, it’s applied. But yeah the it’s not reflected in the “Your price” areas.


Is reflected there for me. You have to be logged in.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Is reflected there for me. You have to be logged in.


Huh, yeah seems like it’s all working now any way


----------



## timbit2006 (Dec 9, 2021)

Hmm maybe I'll setup my 3 PCs and 6 monitors and start busking downtown to make the money for Synchron Woodwinds. Seems like a legit idea.


----------



## My Friends Call Me Rafael (Dec 9, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Huh, yeah seems like it’s all working now any way


yeah, It's coming up for me too now. Thanks!


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

In the end of last year I bought some vouchers but when Synchron Brass arrived I already had none on my hands... No such a mistake this time, hehehe..))


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

For VSL EDU prices, do you need to submit an EDU certificate ? or ... ?

What's the procedure to get the EDU price for VSL products ?

Thanks.

*EDIT : *OK, found the the info about EDU discounts here https://www.vsl.co.at/en/EDU


----------



## Petrucci (Dec 9, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> For VSL EDU prices, do you need to submit an EDU certificate ? or ... ?
> 
> What's the procedure to get the EDU price for VSL products ?
> 
> Thanks.



You have to be logged in and probably somewhere in your account page there would be a form to upload your docs. You can also view News page and select on the left EDU Discount news - and you can upload your docs directly from there if I remember correctly!)


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 9, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> You have to be logged in and probably somewhere in your account page there would be a form to upload your docs. You can also view News page and select on the left EDU Discount news - and you can upload your docs directly from there if I remember correctly!)


THANKS


----------



## holywilly (Dec 9, 2021)

For those who owned and still using VI Woodwinds (Full, not synchronized), what's your take on Synchron Woodwinds?


----------



## Karmand (Dec 9, 2021)

yea, no reason to get these Synchron woodwinds when we already have given hard earned paycheques for 'Synchron-ized' ones and supported VSL with a presale on their product, and a few months later a 'new' set comes out... we reward and support them, but they don't reward us. Consumers, I'm so sorry I am one, however I also have self control. No sale here. I fear no more for VSL.


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

Karmand said:


> yea, no reason to get these Synchron woodwinds when we already have given hard earned paycheques for 'Synchron-ized' ones and supported VSL with a presale on their product, and a few months later a 'new' set comes out... we reward and support them, but they don't reward us. Consumers, I'm so sorry I am one, however I also have self control. No sale here. I fear no more for VSL.


I have not noticed yet that the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds have gone bad, and I don't think they can.
Are you shure you are not talking about old milk? 

But seriously, no one is stopping you from mixing and using both libraries at the same time in the same project (crazy idea, but it works!). This way you can add additional players, or also use tons of instruments that are not available in Synchron Woodwinds.


----------



## ChickenAndARoll (Dec 9, 2021)

Ben said:


> I have not noticed yet that the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds have gone bad, and I don't think they can.
> Are you shure you are not talking about old milk?
> 
> But seriously, no one is stopping you from mixing and using both libraries at the same time in the same project (crazy idea, but it works!). This way you can add additional players, or also use tons of instruments that are not available in Synchron Woodwinds.


In addition, sometimes certain musical phrases sound better on a particular sample's tone, so the more variety of options the better. The Synchron-ized ones still sound amazing, and getting the Synchron ones gives you more tonal options


----------



## dcoscina (Dec 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> My bet is Harp and Solo strings before Woodwinds. Prove me wrong, @Ben


Wrong


----------



## DaddyO (Dec 9, 2021)

An unexpected Christmas treat, to be sure. Vouchers ordered, as soon as received, SY Woodwinds will follow. What a 15 months for the Synchron line, Strings Pro, Elite Strings, Brass, Perc III, and now Woodwinds.


----------



## Karmand (Dec 9, 2021)

Ben said:


> I have not noticed yet that the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds have gone bad, and I don't think they can.
> Are you shure you are not talking about old milk?
> 
> But seriously, no one is stopping you from mixing and using both libraries at the same time in the same project (crazy idea, but it works!). This way you can add additional players, or also use tons of instruments that are not available in Synchron Woodwinds.


You obviously missed the point. VSL missed the consumer appreciation band wagon.


----------



## Zedcars (Dec 9, 2021)

I just bought this new release but I think I will continue to use the Synchron-ized WW in addition. I find the runs and arpeggios to be really useful, although a bit more work to get them to fit. It will be interesting to see how cohesive they are especially when exposed. While we wait for the solo 2nds, I’m hoping the Synchron-ized WW will work well alongside them.


----------



## Zedcars (Dec 9, 2021)

Slightly OT but Im also hoping for a Synchron Brass II release next year with muted brass and ditto for the strings.


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

Karmand said:


> You obviously missed the point. VSL missed the consumer appreciation band wagon.


Right now we are offering
1) intro price discounts
2) + upgrade discounts from BBO woodwinds
3) + voucher sale
How many discounts should we stock on top of that to not "miss the consumer appreciation band wagon"?

I know, other devs handle releases differently and offer crossgrade prices from other products, or upgrade prices form discontinued products.
But in our case we don't discontinue the SYNCHRON-ized Winds, and we don't ever offer crossgrade prices (with one exception).

If you buy it now at intro sale and make use of the voucher sale, you pay €345 for the Standard Library - that's *42% off* the list price!!!
And if you got the BBO Woodwinds you will get it even cheaper.

So tell me again, why are we "missing the the consumer appreciation band wagon"?


----------



## Zedcars (Dec 9, 2021)

Karmand said:


> yea, no reason to get these Synchron woodwinds when we already have given hard earned paycheques for 'Synchron-ized' ones and supported VSL with a presale on their product, and a few months later a 'new' set comes out... we reward and support them, but they don't reward us. Consumers, I'm so sorry I am one, however I also have self control. No sale here. I fear no more for VSL.


They’re whole new samples man; it’s a whole new library. I understand your disappointment up to a point but there is an intro price plus the fact that the voucher scheme allows you to save even more money. We even got free runs and arps with the Synchron-ized WW. And now we’re getting all these additional articulation options with the Synchron WW. I’m not complaining.


----------



## dhlkid (Dec 9, 2021)

Ben said:


> Right now we are offering
> 1) intro price discounts
> 2) + upgrade discounts from BBO woodwinds
> 3) + voucher sale
> ...


Is it €345 tax included? or plus tax?
I am thinking to get the voucher.


----------



## Ben (Dec 9, 2021)

dhlkid said:


> Is it €345 tax included? or plus tax?
> I am thinking to get the voucher.


Tax included


----------



## yellow_lupine (Dec 10, 2021)

I really don't get why solo instruments come with lots of short articulations while ensemble instruments come with only two(!).
There aren't even trills for the ensembles, neither fast legato to reproduce them.
Moreover only sforzato and no sforzatissimo and the "marcato" articulation for ensembles is not a recorded marcato but the usual stacked staccato.
There are also fast repetitions for solo bassoons but not for bassoons ensemble... I don't understand the reason for this disparity between ensembles and solos.


----------



## holywilly (Dec 10, 2021)

After couple hours exploring Synchron Woodwoods, sadly it's not a keeper for me although I bought the full library with a very attractive price.

IMHO, VSL VI Woodwinds full is still the king of all woodwinds, in terms of tonality, playability, and flexibility.


----------



## Marcus Millfield (Dec 10, 2021)

holywilly said:


> After couple hours exploring Synchron Woodwoods, sadly it's not a keeper for me although I bought the full library with a very attractive price.
> 
> IMHO, VSL VI Woodwinds full is still the king of all woodwinds, in terms of tonality, playability, and flexibility.


I'm in the market for VSL woodwinds and as an admirer of their dry VI libraries, I'm on the fence on this. I do love the Synchron player. Would Synchron-ized WW be a good middle-ground between the two?


----------



## holywilly (Dec 10, 2021)

I use VI woodwinds with MIRx Synchron, they just sound beautiful. Somehow I like the original samples instead of re-edit and re-mastered ones on Synchronized line.

Synchron Woodwinds aren't bad, maybe I just need times to digest them. 

In short, Synchron Woodwinds aren't as lyrical as VI woodwinds. But soundwise the Synchron Woodwinds are lovely.

I'm still on the crossroad of whether keeping it or let it go...hmmm...decisions decisions.


----------



## cet34f (Dec 10, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> They’re whole new samples man; it’s a whole new library. I understand your disappointment up to a point but there is an intro price plus the fact that the voucher scheme allows you to save even more money. We even got free runs and arps with the Synchron-ized WW. And now we’re getting all these additional articulation options with the Synchron WW. I’m not complaining.


For me, the concern is not about paying twice.

The SY-ized WW and SY WW's functionalities are heavily overlapped, so it makes little sense for people to buy both. (On the other hand, the DIM Brass and SY Brass complement each other very well.)

So, for a SY-nized WW owner, it's a great shame that we probably won't buy and get a chance to enjoy SY WW. 

A loyalty discount can ease the pain, yes, but I am more interested in how both libraries complement each other. I am not talking about using SY WW for surround and SY-ized WW for MIR. I am talking about using them together, at the same time. For example, maybe a quadruple woodwind setup can make use of two libraries.

Maybe someone can share an idea?


----------



## holywilly (Dec 10, 2021)

Synchron woodwinds and VI/Synchronized woodwinds work very well together for harmony writing. However for solo passage, Synchron woodwinds aren’t the best choice for the job. 

The 2nd flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon aren’t available until early 2022. Wish those instruments are able to write lyrical and expressive lines.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Dec 10, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Synchron Woodwoods


Have you downloaded and tried the correct library then? 

Thanks for the feedback. It's also my feeling from the current demos and walkthroughs so far. But that's of course a subjective thing. I also don't like the BBO ensembles which I demoed earlier.


----------



## holywilly (Dec 10, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Have you downloaded and tried the correct library then?
> 
> Thanks for the feedback. It's also my feeling from the current demos and walkthroughs so far. But that's of course a subjective thing. I also don't like the BBO ensembles which I demoed earlier.


I wish I did. 

The flute family aren’t bad at all, very detailed and prestige sound. 

The reed family are just not meeting the par. The tones and shorts are nice, just the longs and legatos are just like winds ensemble from BBO.
There’s an Espressivo legato, with limited dynamic range just like ones from the strings.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 10, 2021)

Thank you for the your feedback @holywilly 

I'm still working through my order with BS, hope to have it today though.

I anticipated that Synchron-ized WW would still be useful and even preferable in some cases, so personally not surprised there. The Synchron-ized are so sweet I doubted they could be surpassed! (especially the unlooped legatos!). I still am excited for this new library though.

I also bought Synchron-ized Bass Flute and Synchron-ized Oboe d’Amore... was thinking of Alto Flute too... any impressions on Synchron vs Synchron-ized there?


----------



## holywilly (Dec 10, 2021)

The Synchron Alto Flute is lovely, actually all flutes are superb. One of the highlights of the library, imho. 

Talking about synchronized winds, I still a huge fan of VI winds plus MIRx Synchron Stage. The original samples are just too good and never aged. Plus, VI Pro is one of the best samplers that allows you to sculpt everything.


----------



## holywilly (Dec 10, 2021)

After watching this video, I’ve decided to explore deeper with Synchron woodwinds. This is type of the sound that I’m aiming for. Thanks @Guy Bacos to showcase the expressive side of this library, I am now have to re-adjust my usual workflow.


----------



## JTB (Dec 10, 2021)

Great to see VSL completing their wet Synchron orchestra series!.

I would now like to see VSL record a wet library at the Vienna Konzerthaus.


----------



## Ben (Dec 10, 2021)

@holywilly Don't forget the sound of the Synchron Woodwinds will blend perfectly with other Synchron libraries - to a level that is not possible with the SYNCHRON-ized ones.
Both have their strengths, and both will be better suited for when being used with their strengths in mind.


----------



## noldar12 (Dec 10, 2021)

To echo what others have asked, for those who have VI/Sychronized woodwinds, is SW worth getting?

When I was actively writing, VSL was my "go-to." To me, as a trained classical double-bassist, VSL captured the orchestral sound I was after. As I've been ramping back up, I have purchased all of the Synchron Strings. I also added the synchronized woodwinds, and the BBO woodwind sections (in essence I had the full VI Cube), plus I've added VI Dimension Brass I. Much of my writing is strings intense, with woodwinds not too far behind. For the times when I will be writing large-scale works, my thoughts are that I could manage with using VI brass/percussion placed in MIR's Synchron Stage (I'm looking forward to MIR 3D). By using vouchers, plus the discount for BBO, I could get the woodwinds for about $475 or so. I am sure Ben is right about blending, but I'm on the fence at the moment, as I've already spent a lot of money.

What would you suggest?


----------



## Ben (Dec 10, 2021)

noldar12 said:


> What would you suggest?


In case you are asking me 
Listen to the demos, and if you like the tone of these instruments you can't go wrong imo.
These are wonderful instruments, yet they sound quite different in terms of tone and character to the SYized ones.

We have a few additional demos in pipeline right now, they will be published within the next days, so stay tuned!


----------



## Dietz (Dec 10, 2021)

JTB said:


> I would now like to see VSL record a wet library at the Vienna Konzerthaus.


Yeeeeeees. Always think big! 🙃


----------



## FireGS (Dec 10, 2021)

Dietz said:


> Yeeeeeees. Always think big! 🙃





JTB said:


> I would now like to see VSL record a wet library at the Vienna Konzerthaus.


I'm still waiting for the Death Metal band inside the Vienna Konzerthaus


----------



## muk (Dec 10, 2021)

Dietz said:


> Yeeeeeees. Always think big! 🙃


Dietz, do you know something that we don't here?


----------



## Zedcars (Dec 12, 2021)

Hi @Ben - just a small thing about the library...

There is a "tmp" entry in the Oboe 1 Legato Patch list. It doesn't look like it belongs there:


----------



## Zedcars (Dec 12, 2021)

Complete List of VSL Synchron Woodwind Patch Articulations

(Warning, the list is _very_ long)



Spoiler



*Piccolo Flute*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long Non Vib
Portato Long Vib

Long Non Vib
Long Marc Non Vib
Long Espressivo Non Vib
Long Sfz Non Vib
Long Vib
Long Marc Vib
Long Espressivo Vib
Long Sfz Vib

Legato Non Vib
Legato Marc Non Vib
Legato Fast Non Vib
Legato Fast Marc Non Vib
Legato Espressivo Non Vib
Legato Vib
Legato Marc Vib
Legato Fast Vib
Legato Fast Marc Vib
Legato Espressivo Vib

Cresc 2s Non Vib
Cresc 3s Non Vib
Cresc 4s Non Vib
Dim 2s Non Vib
Dim 3s Non Vib
Dim 4s Non Vib
Cresc 2s Vib
Cresc 3s Vib
Cresc 4s Vib
Dim 2s Vib
Dim 3s Vib
Dim 4s Vib

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marcato

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*Flute 1*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long Non Vib
Portato Long Vib

Long Non Vib
Long Marc Non Vib
Long Espressivo Non Vib
Long Sfz Non Vib
Long Sffz Non Vib
Long Vib
Long Marc Vib
Long Espressivo Vib
Long Sfz Vib
Long Sffz Vib

Legato Non Vib
Legato Marc Non Vib
Legato Fast Non Vib
Legato Fast Marc Non Vib
Legato Espressivo Non Vib
Legato Vib
Legato Marc Vib
Legato Fast Vib
Legato Fast Marc Vib
Legato Espressivo Vib

Cresc 2s Non Vib
Cresc 3s Non Vib
Cresc 4s Non Vib
Dim 2s Non Vib
Dim 3s Non Vib
Dim 4s Non Vib
Cresc 2s Vib
Cresc 3s Vib
Cresc 4s Vib
Dim 2s Vib
Dim 3s Vib
Dim 4s Vib

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marcato

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*Alto Flute*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long Non Vib
Portato Long Vib

Long Non vib
Long Marc Non vib
Long Espressivo Non Vib
Long Sfz Non Vib
Long Sffz Non Vib
Long Vib
Long Marc Vib
Long Espressivo Vib
Long Sfz Vib
Long Sffz Vib

Legato Non vib
Legato Marc Non Vib
Legato Fast Non Vib
Legato Fast Marc Non Vib
Legato Espressivo Non Vib
Legato Vib
Legato Marc Vib
Legato Fast Vib
Legato Fast Marc Vib
Legato Espressivo Vib

Cresc 2s Non Vib
Cresc 3s Non Vib
Cresc 4s Non Vib
Dim 2s Non Vib
Dim 3s Non Vib
Dim 4s Non Vib
Cresc 2s Vib
Cresc 3s Vib
Cresc 4s Vib
Dim 2s Vib
Dim 3s Vib
Dim 4s Vib

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marcato

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*Flutes a3*
Shorts
Shorts Agile

Long
Long Marc
Long Espressivo
Long Soft Swell
Long Sfz

Legato
Legato Marc
Legato Espressivo

Swell Short
Swell Long

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marc

*Oboe 1 (French)*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long Non Vib
Portato Long Vib

Long Non Vib
Long Marc Non Vib
Long Espressivo Non Vib
Long Sfz Non Vib
Long Sffz Non Vib
Long Vib
Long Marc Vib
Long Espressivo Vib
Long Sfz Vib
Long Sffz Vib

Legato Non Vib
Legato Marc Non Vib
Legato Fast Non Vib
Legato Fast Marc Non Vib
Legato Espressivo Non Vib
Legato Vib
Legato Marc Vib
Legato Fast Vib
Legato Fast Marc Vib
Legato Espressivo Vib

Cresc 2s Non Vib
Cresc 3s Non Vib
Cresc 4s Non Vib
Dim 2s Non Vib
Dim 3s Non Vib
Dim 4s Non Vib
Cresc 2s Vib
Cresc 3s Vib
Cresc 4s Vib
Dim 2s Vib
Dim 3s Vib
Dim 4s Vib

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*English Horn*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long Non Vib
Portato Long Vib

Long Non Vib
Long Marc Non Vib
Long Espressivo Non Vib
Long Sfz Non Vib
Long Sffz Non Vib
Long Vib
Long Marc Vib
Long Espressivo Vib
Long Sfz Vib
Long Sffz Vib

Legato Non Vib
Legato Marc Non Vib
Legato Fast Non Vib
Legato Fast Marc Non Vib
Legato Espressivo Non Vib
Legato Vib
Legato Marc Vib
Legato Fast Vib
Legato Fast Marc Vib
Legato Espressivo Vib

Cresc 2s Non Vib
Cresc 3s Non Vib
Cresc 4s Non Vib
Dim 2s Non Vib
Dim 3s Non Vib
Dim 4s Non Vib
Cresc 2s Vib
Cresc 3s Vib
Cresc 4s Vib
Dim 2s Vib
Dim 3s Vib
Dim 4s Vib

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*Oboes a3*
Shorts
Shorts Agile

Long
Long Marc
Long Espressivo
Long Softswell
Long Sfz

Legato
Legato Marc
Legato Espressivo

Swell Short
Swell Long

*Clarinet Bb 1*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long

Long
Long Marc
Long Espressivo
Long Sfz
Long Sffz

Legato
Legato Marc
Legato Fast
Legato Fast Marc
Legato Espressivo

Cresc-Strong 2s
Cresc-Strong 3s
Cresc-Strong 4s
Dim-Strong 2s
Dim-Strong 3s
Dim-Strong 4s
Cresc-Soft 2s
Cresc-Soft 3s
Cresc-Soft 4s
Dim-Soft 2s
Dim-Soft 3s
Dim-Soft 4s

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marcato

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*Bass Clarinet*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long

Long
Long Marc
Long Espressivo
Long Sfz
Long Sffz

Legato
Legato Marc
Legato Fast
Legato Fast Marc
Legato Espressivo

Cresc-Strong 2s
Cresc-Strong 3s
Cresc-Strong 4s
Dim-Strong 2s
Dim-Strong 3s
Dim-Strong 4s
Cresc-Soft 2s
Cresc-Soft 3s
Cresc-Soft 4s
Dim-Soft 2s
Dim-Soft 3s
Dim-Soft 4s

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marcato

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*Clarinets Bb a3*
Shorts
Shorts Agile

Long
Long Marc
Long Espressivo
Long Soft Swell
Long Sfz
Long Sffz

Legato
Legato Marc
Legato Espressivo

Swell Short
Swell Long

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marc

*Bassoon 1*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long Non Vib
Portato Long Vib

Long Non Vib
Long Marc Non Vib
Long Espressivo Non Vib
Long Sfz Non Vib
Long Sffz Non Vib
Long Vib
Long Marc Vib
Long Espressivo Vib
Long Sfz Vib
Long Sffz Vib

Legato Non Vib
Legato Marc Non Vib
Legato Fast Non Vib
Legato Fast Marc Non Vib
Legato Espressivo Non Vib
Legato Vib
Legato Marc Vib
Legato Fast Vib
Legato Fast Marc Vib
Legato Espressivo Vib

Cresc 2s Non Vib
Cresc 3s Non Vib
Cresc 4s Non Vib
Dim 2s Non Vib
Dim 3s Non Vib
Dim 4s Non Vib
Cresc 2s Vib
Cresc 3s Vib
Cresc 4s Vib
Dim 2s Vib
Dim 3s Vib
Dim 4s Vib

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marcato

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*Contrabassoon*
Staccato Short
Staccato Short Agile
Staccato Long
Staccato Long Agile
Portato
Portato Agile
Portato Long

Long
Long Marc
Long Espressivo
Long Sfz
Long Sffz

Legato
Legato Marc
Legato Fast
Legato Fast Marc
Legato Espressivo

Cresc-Strong 2s
Cresc-Strong 3s
Cresc-Strong 4s
Dim-Strong 2s
Dim-Strong 3s
Dim-Strong 4s

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-130
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-130 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter
Flatter Marcato

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole
Legato Trills-Half
Legato Trills-Whole

*Bassoons a3*
Shorts
Shorts Agile

Long
Long Marc
Long Espressivo
Long Soft Swell
Long Sfz

Legato
Legato Marc
Legato Espressivo

Swell Short
Swell Long

*Tutti Senza Piccolo*
Shorts
Shorts Agile

Long
Long Espressivo
Long Soft Swell
Long Sfz
Long Sffz

Swell Short
Swell Long

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole

*Tutti Con Piccolo*
Shorts
Shorts Agile

Long
Long Espressivo
Long Soft Swell
Long Sfz
Long Sffz

Swell Short
Swell Long

Fast-Reps-120
Fast-Reps-140
Fast-Reps-160
Fast-Reps-120 xR
Fast-Reps-140 xR
Fast-Reps-160 xR

Flatter

Trills-Half
Trills-Whole


----------



## Ben (Dec 12, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Hi @Ben - just a small thing about the library...
> 
> There is a "tmp" entry in the Oboe 1 Legato Patch list. It doesn't look like it belongs there:


Thanks. Funny thing, it does not appear on my system... I'll report this and we fix it in the extension update.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 12, 2021)

JTB said:


> Great to see VSL completing their wet Synchron orchestra series!.
> 
> I would now like to see VSL record a wet library at the Vienna Konzerthaus.


Not Konzerthaus, the Musikverein big hall it should be. One of the best halls, if not the best, in the world- not only imo. Sadly this probably never will happen. There is not one impulse response from it out there Afaik. This would be the absolute benchmark of perfect frequency balance, tail and clarity.


----------



## wlinart (Dec 12, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> There is not one impulse response from it out there Afaik.


There is: http://www.angelofarina.it/Public/IMP-RESP/Musikverein/


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 12, 2021)

wlinart said:


> There is: http://www.angelofarina.it/Public/IMP-RESP/Musikverein/


Interesting, I'll check this. Thank you


----------



## JTB (Dec 12, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Not Konzerthaus, the Musikverein big hall it should be. One of the best halls, if not the best, in the world- not only imo. Sadly this probably never will happen. There is not one impulse response from it out there Afaik. This would be the absolute benchmark of perfect frequency balance, tail and clarity.


Musikverein sounds a bit bright for my liking. I personally prefer the sound of Vienna Konzerthaus. From the images I viewed it looks like Vienna Konzerthaus is about 1/3 larger than Musikverein.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 12, 2021)

JTB said:


> Musikverein sounds a bit bright for my liking. I personally prefer the sound of Vienna Konzerthaus. From the images I viewed it looks like Vienna Konzerthaus is about 1/3 larger than Musikverein.


Have you been there and listened to an orchestral concert in both venues?
Musikverein has that long shoebox design while Konzerthaus is more wide. I'm not sure if it has more seats although I've been there at a lot of concerts.
They are both great halls but a sound signature like Musikverein in sampled instruments doesn't exist afaik. Konzerthaus is one of the MIR venues and I didn't like it that much.


----------



## holywilly (Dec 12, 2021)

Unfortunately I have to let go this library and will continue rocking the VI Woodwinds.


----------



## Zedcars (Dec 12, 2021)

I was hoping for minor 3rd trills, per instrument runs and arps and more special effect options but alas, no. I guess they might do that in another WW volume.

The shorts sound crisp and vibrant and it’s nice to have 2 different length of staccatos and portatos (portati, portatoes? Lol). I also love that you can hear the fingering noise on the trills.


----------



## Zedcars (Dec 12, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Unfortunately I have to let go this library and will continue rocking the VI Woodwinds.


May I ask why? Do you prefer the sound of the VI WWs or some other reason?


----------



## JTB (Dec 12, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Have you been there and listened to an orchestral concert in both venues?
> Musikverein has that long shoebox design while Konzerthaus is more wide. I'm not sure if it has more seats although I've been there at a lot of concerts.
> They are both great halls but a sound signature like Musikverein in sampled instruments doesn't exist afaik. Konzerthaus is one of the MIR venues and I didn't like it that much.


No I haven't been there. I live in Australia. I just think that if VSL were to do it, they may as well go big. No one has done a sample library recorded in a hall as big as Vienna Konzerthaus. But many have done libraries in large halls. Synchron stage is fairly large and also Air Lyndhurst. So to do something that hasn't been done before, Vienna Konzerthaus would make sense.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 12, 2021)

JTB said:


> No I haven't been there. I live in Australia. I just think that if VSL were to do it, they may as well go big. No one has done a sample library recorded in a hall as big as Vienna Konzerthaus. But many have done libraries in large halls. Synchron stage is fairly large and also Air Lyndhurst. So to do something that hasn't been done before, Vienna Konzerthaus would make sense.


I grew up having to walk around 10 minutes to either of the venues.
Without wanting to derail from the WW Synchron topic further more but doesn't that sound great apart from the playing? You couldn't get that clarity in Konzerthaus. A sample library with this sound signature would be unique imo.


----------



## holywilly (Dec 12, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> May I ask why? Do you prefer the sound of the VI WWs or some other reason?


I think it's very personal and subjective. I've been rocking VI Woodwinds for almost 8 years, it has the one of best legatos and articulations on the market, can be used in both lyrical solo passages or in context of the full orchestra, and the playability is top notch. I've been using it with MIR to match the room tone of my other Synchron libraries.

I bought the Synchron Woodwinds when it released, was very excited and planned to replace VI Woodwinds in my template. Played it for a day, replaced it my older cues and it didn't surpass the VI Woodwinds. The short articulations are very well sampled and I truly enjoy writing with it. However the long and legatos did not deliver better result (I re-write the winds part, did not just copy the midi).

Synchron Woodwinds have very nice tone, the best woodwinds tone IMHO, but the longs and legatos (which I use them daily) are the main reason to let it go.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 13, 2021)

Now that the main sections are “done”, I wonder if VSL will record and release expansions. For example, VI Woodwinds I full library consists of a ton of additional articulations (mordents, legato types, etc). Additional solo brass and brass ensembles (like 4 horns) plus more articulations (especially for the ensembles) would be great. Con sord for Synchron Strings Pro.

Lot of possibilities!


----------



## JTB (Dec 13, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> I grew up having to walk around 10 minutes to either of the venues.
> Without wanting to derail from the WW Synchron topic further more but doesn't that sound great apart from the playing? You couldn't get that clarity in Konzerthaus. A sample library with this sound signature would be unique imo.



That does sound great. Would you by chance have a link to something recorded in Vienna Konzerthaus that we could compare with?.


ALittleNightMusic said:


> Now that the main sections are “done”, I wonder if VSL will record and release expansions. For example, VI Woodwinds I full library consists of a ton of additional articulations (mordents, legato types, etc). Additional solo brass and brass ensembles (like 4 horns) plus more articulations (especially for the ensembles) would be great. Con sord for Synchron Strings Pro.
> 
> Lot of possibilities!


Yes! I would like to see some pfp and fpf samples. They are very handy, even if you only use the beginning of the arc.
And, I am always a little disappointed when I go from say bassoon 1 (VI) to bassoon ensemble and notice how few articulations I have to work with.
I personally don't use the grace notes or up beats that much probably because the VI legato and shorts are such good quality.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 13, 2021)

.
Quite a difference imo. But also a different Orchestra, sound engineer, etc to consider.



JTB said:


> That does sound great. Would you by chance have a link to something recorded in Vienna Konzerthaus that we could compare with?.


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## holywilly (Dec 13, 2021)

However, if anyone who owns Synchron woodwinds and able to produce expressive lyrical solo line, I’d love to learn tips and tricks.


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## JTB (Dec 13, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Quite a difference imo. But also a different Orchestra, sound engineer, etc to consider.


Yeah, I must agree, the tail in the Musikverein video does sound nice. But that is with a packed house remember. If it was empty, as it would be if VSL were recording samples, then it might come across a touch bright. Whereas an empty Vienna Konzerthaus would have a natural warmth.


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## prodigalson (Dec 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> However, if anyone who owns Synchron woodwinds and able to produce expressive lyrical solo line, I’d love to learn tips and tricks.


Are you using the legato espressivo articulation?


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## holywilly (Dec 13, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> Are you using the legato espressivo articulation?


Yes.


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## ptram (Dec 13, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Konzerthaus is one of the MIR venues and I didn't like it that much.


The Sage Gateshead is also in MIR, and it should sound similar to the Musikverein. Not been in either of the venues, so I don't know if this is true in reality as it should be in theory.

Paolo


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## Petrucci (Dec 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Yes.


I find SW legatos great for lyrical lines though I will still be using unlooped legatos from Synchronized Woodwinds cause they are so Special!)


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 13, 2021)

It seems the 3 VSL WW products offer something the others don't. That's good info to have, because although I now own Synchon WW, the other options still seem to add something to the table.


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## holywilly (Dec 13, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> I find SW legatos great for lyrical lines though I will still be using unlooped legatos from Synchronized Woodwinds cause they are so Special!)


Yeah! I love unlooped legatos! I have synchronized woodwinds but still using the VI version, I found the legato transitions are more defined.


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## holywilly (Dec 13, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> It seems the 3 VSL WW products offer something the others don't. That's good info to have, because although I now own Synchon WW, the other options still seem to add something to the table.


I was expecting Synchron Woodwinds is able to do what other VSL WW products can, like all in one product.


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## Petrucci (Dec 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Yeah! I love unlooped legatos! I have synchronized woodwinds but still using the VI version, I found the legato transitions are more defined.



Yes, I love unlooped legatos for their natural hold and decay of the notes, and the patch is so universal - good for slow and fast lines in most cases! It would be awesome if VSL could do the same unlooped legatos for SW as well as other products like strings, brass etc. Well, I don't have VI version unfortunately but I'm too lazy to bother cause I love Synchron Player so much..!)))


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I was expecting Synchron Woodwinds is able to do what other VSL WW products can, like all in one product.


From what I gathered from the other Synchron and Synchron-ized releases, I already knew the Synchron release wouldn't be a culmination of everything that was released before. This doesn't mean it isn't a fantastic library, but I knew the other libraries would still have their own things to add to the WW table.


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## holywilly (Dec 13, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> From what I gathered from the other Synchron and Synchron-ized releases, I already knew the Synchron release wouldn't be a culmination of everything that was released before. This doesn't mean it isn't a fantastic library, but I knew the other libraries would still have their own things to add to the WW table.


You make me want to re-purchase again. 

I really love the tone of Synchron Woodwinds, maybe I’ll consider it again.


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## Petrucci (Dec 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I was expecting Synchron Woodwinds is able to do what other VSL WW products can, like all in one product.


Given it's multi mic approach compared to the Silent Stage it's understandable that there aren't So many articulations, yet it's already quite a nice package Imho and knowing VSL we might as well expect some free content updates hehe. ..)))


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## JTB (Dec 13, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> Given it's multi mic approach compared to the Silent Stage it's understandable that there aren't So many articulations, yet it's already quite a nice package Imho and knowing VSL we might as well expect some free content updates hehe. ..)))


So out of 10, what would you give this library after having some time to explore it?. Does it want to be played, or is it just something that you could use?.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> You make me want to re-purchase again.
> 
> I really love the tone of Synchron Woodwinds, maybe I’ll consider it again.


The only reason I waited for SY WW is because the relationship I have with the VI player is... complicated 😄

I use it for jazz drums and that's it. Never could get along with it, while I adore the Synchron Player.


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## Petrucci (Dec 13, 2021)

JTB said:


> So out of 10, what would you give this library after having some time to explore it?. Does it want to be played, or is it just something that you could use?.



For me it's 10 out of 10 cause I'm VSL fanboy=) Yes, it needs to be played definately, and there are still Flute 2, Oboe 2 etc to be released later so a lot of content ahead. I haven't used it in writing yet, but will do before the end of the year so will have more time to test it. I also feel that many mics bring more versatility to the table even taking into account that Synchronized Woodwinds are quite versatile with placement and sound. I also feel like Synchron Woodwinds are little more "real" in terms of sound.


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## holywilly (Dec 13, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> The only reason I waited for SY WW is because the relationship I have with the VI player is... complicated 😄
> 
> I use it for jazz drums and that's it. Never could get along with it, while I adore the Synchron Player.


VI Pro is clinical, it’s tweaker’s heaven. 

Back to Synchron Woodwinds, how can I not to have SW when I have all Synchron libraries, oh man……


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## Germain B (Dec 13, 2021)

Although it seems that there's no debate for the full version of the Elite Strings, I'm not sure about it for the Synchron Woodwinds.
I haven't heard yet a demonstration of the plus-value of the full version over the standard one.
For those who have it, am I wrong ? Are there a lot of creative mix presets like in the Elite Strings that can drastically change/shape the sound ?


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## Petrucci (Dec 13, 2021)

Germain B said:


> Although it seems that there's no debate for the full version of the Elite Strings, I'm not sure about it for the Synchron Woodwinds.
> I haven't heard yet a demonstration of the plus-value of the full version over the standard one.
> For those who have it, am I wrong ? Are there a lot of creative mix presets like in the Elite Strings that can drastically change/shape the sound ?


I went for Full because there's more room in Surround To Stereo presets and I need it to blend better with other sections in Surround To Stereo Mixpresets.


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## JTB (Dec 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> VI Pro is clinical, it’s tweaker’s heaven.
> 
> Back to Synchron Woodwinds, how can I not to have SW when I have all Synchron libraries, oh man……


Cave! Cave! Cave!


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## JTB (Dec 13, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> For me it's 10 out of 10 cause I'm VSL fanboy=) Yes, it needs to be played definately, and there are still Flute 2, Oboe 2 etc to be released later so a lot of content ahead. I haven't used it in writing yet, but will do before the end of the year so will have more time to test it. I also feel that many mics bring more versatility to the table even taking into account that Synchronized Woodwinds are quite versatile with placement and sound. I also feel like Synchron Woodwinds are little more "real" in terms of sound.


It does seem to be a lot of content especially for the intro + voucher price. I managed to resist Synchron brass, but this might be a bridge too far.


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 13, 2021)

I was so tempted by Synchron Woodwinds and I liked the sound of some of the music running through trailers etc., and some of it in the walkthrough. But it just sounds unnatural and "unreal" in all demos I have heard by Guy and everything else. The longs is the main problem, and the attacks seem to be missing/chopped off. There's just something weird about it that screams FAKE from the very first note. It's a pity because the shorts, the recordings etc are top notch but the musicality and realism just isn't there. Even the few exposed clarinet lines I heard in demos sound so much worse than the 15 year(+) old original woodwinds.


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## Petrucci (Dec 13, 2021)

JTB said:


> It does seem to be a lot of content especially for the intro + voucher price. I managed to resist Synchron brass, but this might be a bridge too far.


Yes, I'd say it's a lot of content plus we really might expect some free updates as well! Synchron Brass is awesome too btw...)))


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## JTB (Dec 13, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> I was so tempted by Synchron Woodwinds and I liked the sound of some of the music running through trailers etc., and some of it in the walkthrough. But it just sounds unnatural and "unreal" in all demos I have heard by Guy and everything else. The longs is the main problem, and the attacks seem to be missing/chopped off. There's just something weird about it that screams FAKE from the very first note. It's a pity because the shorts, the recordings etc are top notch but the musicality and realism just isn't there. Even the few exposed clarinet lines I heard in demos sound so much worse than the 15 year(+) old original woodwinds.


There is something going in VSL demos. I'm not sure what it is. But you can be guaranteed when you actually use these libraries, they come to life. Not one of the VSL demos on their site made me go Wow! I need to get that library. But having hands on, somehow, is when the quality of VSL libraries becomes apparent.
There are so many demos on the VSL website, and that says a lot about the versatility of their libraries if anything. 
Some other libraries by other companies sound great in the demos. But then you get it home and realise you have been duped by a 'butter zone' demo. Eh hem OT cough cough.


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## Zanshin (Dec 13, 2021)

"butter zone"

LOL!

OT... not to stray too far off topic. I did pick up BS and BSS in the sale, with pan adjustments to match up with Synchron librarie's wide soundstage, they sit well in a Synchron template, and I am happy to have that flavor in my palette. If I had to choose though, I'd choose Synchron strings any day of the week.


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## JTB (Dec 13, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> I'd choose Synchron strings any day of the week.


Yeah, I feel confident about tackling musical ideas with Synchron strings and Elite strings.


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 13, 2021)

JTB said:


> There is something going in VSL demos. I'm not sure what it is. But you can be guaranteed when you actually use these libraries, they come to life. Not one of the VSL demos on their site made me go Wow! I need to get that library. But having hands on, somehow, is when the quality of VSL libraries becomes apparent.
> There are so many demos on the VSL website, and that says a lot about the versatility of their libraries if anything.
> Some other libraries by other companies sound great in the demos. But then you get it home and realise you have been duped by a 'butter zone' demo. Eh hem OT cough cough.


Yeah well... Still not convinced. A few user demos here, showing clarinet, oboe and flutes in soloist lines on top of strings or something would reveal a little. There's just something about the attacks of the notes especially that sounds wrong. And also those oboe clicking noises as well as general performance of the clarinet etc. It's funny how they avoided much of the sustain/legato parts of the library from the walkthrough...


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 13, 2021)

JTB said:


> There is something going in VSL demos. I'm not sure what it is. But you can be guaranteed when you actually use these libraries, they come to life. Not one of the VSL demos on their site made me go Wow! I need to get that library. But having hands on, somehow, is when the quality of VSL libraries becomes apparent.
> There are so many demos on the VSL website, and that says a lot about the versatility of their libraries if anything.
> Some other libraries by other companies sound great in the demos. But then you get it home and realise you have been duped by a 'butter zone' demo. Eh hem OT cough cough.


Maybe show me how good they can sound then?


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## ZeeCount (Dec 13, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> Yeah well... Still not convinced. A few user demos here, showing clarinet, oboe and flutes in soloist lines on top of strings or something would reveal a little. There's just something about the attacks of the notes especially that sounds wrong. And also those oboe clicking noises as well as general performance of the clarinet etc. It's funny how they avoided much of the sustain/legato parts of the library from the walkthrough...


If you listen to the winds walkthrough, the legato patch for oboe and cor anglais both have this weird fade in on the attack after the legato transition. Listen to this timestamp in the video. It almost sounds like there is a wah-wah on the cor anglais.


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## ptram (Dec 13, 2021)

ZeeCount said:


> the legato patch for oboe and cor anglais both have this weird fade in on the attack after the legato transition


Are you sure you are not hearing the Espressivo patch? That one "fades in" and makes a slight dynamic arc while sustaining. The fragment of walkthrough you linked shows this patch several times.

Paolo


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 13, 2021)

ZeeCount said:


> If you listen to the winds walkthrough, the legato patch for oboe and cor anglais both have this weird fade in on the attack after the legato transition. Listen to this timestamp in the video. It almost sounds like there is a wah-wah on the cor anglais.



On the espressivo patches, yes, they do - by design. On the "regular" patches, it doesn't. The legato sounds excellent to me.


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

JTB said:


> There is something going in VSL demos. I'm not sure what it is. But you can be guaranteed when you actually use these libraries, they come to life. Not one of the VSL demos on their site made me go Wow! I need to get that library. But having hands on, somehow, is when the quality of VSL libraries becomes apparent.
> There are so many demos on the VSL website, and that says a lot about the versatility of their libraries if anything.
> Some other libraries by other companies sound great in the demos. But then you get it home and realise you have been duped by a 'butter zone' demo. Eh hem OT cough cough.


I am feeling very nervous about purchasing these woodwinds,like you mentioned, the demos are not very good, its but the lack of proper demos, demos that really show how these woodwinds are out of the box is bothering me, making me extremely nervous about this purchase, I was dying to hear the oboe but in one of their demos Nico decided to play the ensemble so I haven't heard it yet from Vsl, I love the Synchron stage,I decided to purchase the Synchronised Woodwinds,wich I never used so far because they don't sound nothing like the Synchron stage. Now this lack of demos, detailed demos, demos like the ones they release for every other library its making me reconsider. I hope this changes soon.


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## Tralen (Dec 13, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> I am feeling very nervous about purchasing these woodwinds,like you mentioned, the demos are not very good, its but the lack of proper demos, demos that really show how these woodwinds are out of the box is bothering me, making me extremely nervous about this purchase, I was dying to hear the oboe but in one of their demos Nico decided to play the ensemble so I haven't heard it yet from Vsl, I love the Synchron stage,I decided to purchase the Synchronised Woodwinds,wich I never used so far because they don't sound nothing like the Synchron stage. Now this lack of demos, detailed demos, demos like the ones they release for every other library its making me reconsider. I hope this changes soon.


A *huge plus *that VSL has against the majority of other companies is that their libraries are demo-able, so you could download the library and try it for yourself.

They still require that you own at least one product from them (@Ben, correct me if I'm wrong), and a Vienna Key, but the move to iLok should happen soon.


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## alchemist (Dec 13, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> I am feeling very nervous about purchasing these woodwinds


You may already know, but many I speak to aren't aware that VSL actually has a 14 day return policy. You shouldn't feel nervous! If you don't like the library, you can get a refund within 2 weeks


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

Tralen said:


> A *huge plus *that VSL has against the majority of other companies is that their libraries are demo-able, so you could download the library and try it for yourself.
> 
> They still require that you own at least one product from them (@Ben, correct me if I'm wrong), and a Vienna Key, but the move to iLok should happen soon.


Yes I am aware, I own several libraries, Vsl are my main library makers, maybe Vsl rushed the release because they wanted the Christmas traffic, after all they already admitted they didn't have time to release a full product ,I just never seen this behaviour from them an I am very nervous.


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

Tralen said:


> A *huge plus *that VSL has against the majority of other companies is that their libraries are demo-able, so you could download the library and try it for yourself.
> 
> They still require that you own at least one product from them (@Ben, correct me if I'm wrong), and a Vienna Key, but the move to iLok should happen soon.


Yeah the Ilok move is a wonderful welcoming, kind regards.


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## Ben (Dec 13, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> after all they already admitted they didn't have time to release a full product ,I just never seen this behaviour from them an I am very nervous.


We did this already on the past, nothing new - no reason to be worried 
Unfortunally, we were influenced by Covid this time, so we couldn't release everything in time as initially planned. And as bonus you get an awesome early-bird deal (intro + voucher sales).


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

Ben said:


> We did this already on the past, nothing new - no reason to be worried
> Unfortunally, we were influenced by Covid this time, so we couldn't release everything in time as initially planned. And as bonus you get an awesome early-bird deal (intro + voucher sales).


Hello Ben,I understand that, but this is behaviour I never experience, and when that happens to a person or company its always a sign that things are not well, human nature probably. Thank you for the message, any news about detailed demos like you always do? Kind regards.


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## Ben (Dec 13, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> any news about detailed demos like you always do? Kind regards.


-> https://vi-control.net/community/th...ecember-3-1-voucher-sale.118445/#post-4994132

More demos are also in work, so stay tuned


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

Ben said:


> -> https://vi-control.net/community/th...ecember-3-1-voucher-sale.118445/#post-4994132
> 
> More demos are also in work, so stay tuned


Wonderful Ben, I am eagerly anticipating them, the demos you send me, demos that I watched,are demos I dont really "trust", there is no way for me to know if these pieces I am listening have any editing on them, maybe a compressor ,maybe a little bit of Mirx or a touch of a Exciter to make them sound more broad and lush, I would like to see demos of the woodwind straight out of the box,that is the only way I can see a true representation of the product I want to buy, I am not purchasing the plugins they used, that's why I never feel that those demos are true representations of the sound I am buying, I hope you understand. Kind regards.


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## Ben (Dec 13, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> Wonderful Ben, I am eagerly anticipating them, the demos you send me, demos that I watched,are demos I dont really "trust", there is no way for me to know if these pieces I am listening have any editing on them, maybe a compressor ,maybe a little bit of Mirx or a touch of a Exciter to make them sound more broad and lush, I would like to see demos of the woodwind straight out of the box,that is the only way I can see a true representation of the product I want to buy, I am not purchasing the plugins they used, that why I never feel that those demos are true representations of the sound I am buying, I hope you understand. Kind regards.


Then check out the walkthrough - no effects added there


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 13, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> Wonderful Ben, I am eagerly anticipating them, the demos you send me, demos that I watched,are demos I dont really "trust", there is no way for me to know if these pieces I am listening have any editing on them, maybe a compressor ,maybe a little bit of Mirx or a touch of a Exciter to make them sound more broad and lush, I would like to see demos of the woodwind straight out of the box,that is the only way I can see a true representation of the product I want to buy, I am not purchasing the plugins they used, that why I never feel that those demos are true representations of the sound I am buying, I hope you understand. Kind regards.


Why don’t you buy it, try it yourself, and return it if it doesn’t suit you? That’s even better than asking for demos tailored to your exact specifications.


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> Wonderful Ben, I am eagerly anticipating them, the demos you send me, demos that I watched,are demos I dont really "trust", there is no way for me to know if these pieces I am listening have any editing on them, maybe a compressor ,maybe a little bit of Mirx or a touch of a Exciter to make them sound more broad and lush, I would like to see demos of the woodwind straight out of the box,that is the only way I can see a true representation of the product I want to buy, I am not purchasing the plugins they used, that why I never feel that those demos are true representations of the sound I am buying, I hope you understand. Kind regards.


I already did, Fabio did a very good job, he also missed a lot of things I wanted to hear,like the Oboe,he did 3 long notes and 3 ensembles chords, thats it, I am just maybe a bit too eager to see a more broad out of the box demo, forgive me and my restlessness, now that you said they are coming I will wait patiently, I found it strange ,tomorrow will be 5 days since you posted a demo and I never seen this before from Vsl when a huge library comes out. All the best Ben,kind regards.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 13, 2021)

I have $800 in vouchers ready to buy Synchron Brass and Synchron Woodwinds...but all my emails to the Best Service VSL rep come back as spam errors  What a cruel world.


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Why don’t you buy it, try it yourself, and return it if it doesn’t suit you? That’s even better than asking for demos tailored to your exact specifications.


I wouldn't consider asking for a demo of out of the box to be an exact expectation dedicated only for me. Kind regards.


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## Ben (Dec 13, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I have $800 in vouchers ready to but Synchron Brass and Synchron Woodwinds...but all my emails to the Best Service VSL rep come back as spam errors  What a cruel world.


If you are not able to contact them, feel free to PM me and I'll see if we are able to get in touch with them.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 13, 2021)

Ben said:


> If you are not able to contact them, feel free to PM me and I'll see if we are able to get in touch with them.


Thank you Ben! I have emailed the Best Service customer support to see what the issue is. If I don't get it resolved tomorrow, I'll reach out to you. Eager to download these!


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## holywilly (Dec 13, 2021)

I enjoy watching these review videos and I will re-purchase again within 2021.


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I enjoy watching these review videos and I will re-purchase again within 2021.



They are very good, specially the top one. I messaged him about the stretch feature he wasn't aware, and he replied. Kind regards.


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 13, 2021)

alchemist said:


> You may already know, but many I speak to aren't aware that VSL actually has a 14 day return policy. You shouldn't feel nervous! If you don't like the library, you can get a refund within 2 weeks


You also have to take in consideration that some/all retailers offer No return policy, you only get 14 day return if you purchase it directly from Vsl, other retailers like Best service are under no obligation to do so, its in their policy, kind regards.


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## JTB (Dec 13, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> Maybe show me how good they can sound then?


I don't own them. But if I didn't already own VI WW 1 + 2 and special WW with MIR Synchron Stage, I would have bought these day 1.


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## JTB (Dec 14, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> I am feeling very nervous about purchasing these woodwinds,like you mentioned, the demos are not very good, its but the lack of proper demos, demos that really show how these woodwinds are out of the box is bothering me, making me extremely nervous about this purchase, I was dying to hear the oboe but in one of their demos Nico decided to play the ensemble so I haven't heard it yet from Vsl, I love the Synchron stage,I decided to purchase the Synchronised Woodwinds,wich I never used so far because they don't sound nothing like the Synchron stage. Now this lack of demos, detailed demos, demos like the ones they release for every other library its making me reconsider. I hope this changes soon.


This library pretty much completes the most detailed, coherent virtual orchestra ever recorded. And probably will be for the next few years. No pressure!.
@Ben 
Are the Marcato Start samples just stacked or are they actual marcato start samples?.


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## holywilly (Dec 14, 2021)

@muziksculp has been too quiet since Synchron Woodwinds is released. I’m curious about what OP think of this new library.


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## doctoremmet (Dec 14, 2021)

holywilly said:


> @muziksculp has been too quiet since Synchron Woodwinds is released. I’m curious about what OP think of this new library.


I suspect a pile of Samsung T5s inadvertently fell down on him and he is buried under an avalanche of new samples.


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 14, 2021)

JTB said:


> This library pretty much completes the most detailed, coherent virtual orchestra ever recorded. And probably will be for the next few years. No pressure!.
> @Ben
> Are the Marcato Start samples just stacked or are they actual marcato start samples?.


Those are also my hopes,kind regards.


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

Is anyone getting CPU spikes on the Synchron player with the new woodwinds.
The Surround to Stereo downmix is unplayable for me. The Surround is even worse. The Decca and Room mixes are fine.
The strange thing is that my task manager says the CPU isn't even moving. It's at about 2% and won't move when the cutouts happen. The Synchron player is peaking at 40%. Makes no sense.

Edit: Synchron Strings Pro on the same settings are working fine.

Edit: Also happens in in stand alone too...not just in Cubase...


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## Zanshin (Dec 15, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> Is anyone getting CPU spikes on the Synchron player with the new woodwinds.
> The Surround to Stereo downmix is unplayable for me. The Surround is even worse. The Decca and Room mixes are fine.
> The strange thing is that my task manager says the CPU isn't even moving. It's at about 2% and won't move when the cutouts happen. The Synchron player is peaking at 40%. Makes no sense.


The drive is excluded from virus scanners? Is it a new drive, did you do speed setting stuff in the Player options?


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> The drive is excluded from virus scanners? Is it a new drive, did you do speed setting stuff in the Player options?


All my Sample Libraries folders are excluded....but I did double check and it was as well.


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> did you do speed setting stuff in the Player options?


It should be the same for Synchron Strings pro (which works fine).....no?


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## Zanshin (Dec 15, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> It should be the same for Synchron Strings pro (which works fine).....no?


It should be. It's odd that SSP has no problems though.


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

Now some of the cutouts are happening in the basic room mixes too....


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

Well it turns out it doesn't like my new external NVME drive.

I put the Synchron Woodwinds on the internal SSD drive with my other VSL libs and its all fine. Now I get the painstaking task of testing Kontakt and other libs on my new External NVME drive. The transfer speeds on it are lightning fast. I have no idea why I was getting those spikes on that drive??

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Ben (Dec 15, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> Well it turns out it doesn't like my new external NVME drive.
> 
> I put it on the internal SSD drive with my other VSL libs and its all fine. Now I get the painstaking task of testing Kontakt and other libs on my new External NVME drive. The transfer speeds on it are lightning fast. I have no idea why I was getting those spikes on that drive??
> 
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Synchron Player uses quite some aggressive disk streaming, if your drive's latency is too high, you will not get a good experience.
Either use another drive / external enclosure, or increase the preloading size.


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## Ben (Dec 15, 2021)

Ben said:


> if your drive's latency is too high, you will not get a good experience.


just to clarify: The drive latency is the time from the players request to get sample data streamed until the time the first bytes arrive in the player.
If the time is too high the audio buffer-window will close before the arrived data could be processed, resulting in a drop-out.

Therefore, by increasing the audio buffer size you will also avoid drop-outs.


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

Ben said:


> or increase the preloading size.


I actually did try that one. I set the preload size to max (32768). Didn't help even a little bit.


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## SlHarder (Dec 15, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> I have no idea why I was getting those spikes on that drive??


Google "nvme external drive adapter compatibility issues", a number of articles are returned.


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

SlHarder said:


> Google "nvme external drive adapter compatibility issues", a number of articles are returned.


Some interesting points made, but I didn't go cheap.


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

Anyways....what a beautiful sounding and playable Woodwinds Library.
Just waiting for them to put the Brass back on sale so I can spend the rest of my vouchers.


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## JTB (Dec 15, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> Well it turns out it doesn't like my new external NVME drive.
> 
> I put the Synchron Woodwinds on the internal SSD drive with my other VSL libs and its all fine. Now I get the painstaking task of testing Kontakt and other libs on my new External NVME drive. The transfer speeds on it are lightning fast. I have no idea why I was getting those spikes on that drive??
> 
> Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Make sure you don't have 'stretch' enabled for any of the patches. That will kill your CPU.


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## Robert_G (Dec 15, 2021)

JTB said:


> Make sure you don't have 'stretch' enabled for any of the patches. That will kill your CPU.


It wasn't a CPU problem. As Ben noted....it was definitely a latency problem with the External NVME.


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## axb312 (Dec 15, 2021)

Hi @Ben, When will VSL instruments be free of the E-licenser?


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## Ben (Dec 15, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Hi @Ben, When will VSL instruments be free of the E-licenser?


Soon


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## JTB (Dec 15, 2021)

@Ben 
Are the marcato start samples stacked or real marcato start samples?


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## JTB (Dec 16, 2021)

I gather from the VSL representative's reluctance to answer this question that I have asked twice now on this forum, that the marcato start samples are just stacked with a staccato.
VSL really should be a touch more transparent when people ask for information regarding things like dynamic layer count and whether samples are the real deal or not.
It comes across rather dodgy IMO.


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## Erisno (Dec 16, 2021)

I don't understand why it's so important to know. If it sounds good, it doesn't matter.


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## JTB (Dec 16, 2021)

Because a staccato stacked on top of a sustain, sounds nothing like a marcato start sustain. How could it?.
The action of a bow hitting a string with gusto or in this case some tightly pursed lips releasing a burst of air suddenly, will definitely result in a different sounding sustain. It is to do with the emotion in which an expert playing their instrument expresses when playing.


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## ptram (Dec 16, 2021)

JTB said:


> Are the marcato start samples stacked or real marcato start samples?


As far as I can see, when selecting a Marcato cell, a "marcato" patch is select (something like "22 FL1 Long marc Vib").

Paolo


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

I was wondering what Erik's post was referring to... 
Now I get it: Someone got on my naughty-list, so I didn't see his posts.

@JTB, friendly and absolutely not pushy at all! Thanks, for reminding me why I put you on ignore.


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

ptram said:


> As far as I can see, when selecting a Marcato cell, a "marcato" patch is select (something like "22 FL1 Long marc Vib").
> 
> Paolo


I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think it's a stacked marcato judging by the sound (I have not asked my colleagues about that).
If it was stacked, it was edited so well that I can't tell the difference.


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## Evans (Dec 16, 2021)

JTB said:


> Because a staccato stacked on top of a sustain, sounds nothing like a marcato start sustain. How could it?.


But isn't Erisno's response still applicable? If you think there's an important enough difference, shouldn't you simply be able to hear it in the demos and walkthrough videos so far?


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## re-peat (Dec 16, 2021)

Haven’t read the entire thread so maybe what follows has been discussed already, but anyway, I bought the standard version of the Synchron Woodwinds earlier today and, spending some time with it after installation, I must say that amidst the reasons to be cheerful, part III, there’s also rather a lot I’m surprised to find in what I assume to be ‘flagship’ library.

Won’t go into all my misgivings right now cause I want to ilustrate every comment with audio examples and that takes time which I don’t have at the moment, so I’ll just focus on one that really bothers me: the ‘doubling’ sound when playing legato at higher dynamics. It’s really quite bad at times, I must say. (Certainly too bad, I feel, for a top-drawer product from Vienna.) Many of the instruments suffer from it, but it is particularly noticeable (and annoying) in the double reeds.

Below are two examples with the Oboe. Note how, when I play legato and raise the Modwheel, the illusion of listening to a SOLO instrument disappears completely and you get this chorus-y sound of multiple instruments instead. In very slow lines, the problem is tolerable I suppose (although I really don’t like it), but in anything of medium or fast tempo (when that chorus-y doubling sound completely takes over from the regular timbre), it sounds very wrong and totally destroys whatever degree of illusion was achieved before. I don’t even wanna add “to my ears” to this last sentence, as I’m sure everybody’s ears will hear it.

*Example 1: Oboe Legato*
*Example 2: Oboe Legato*

(I've included legato transitions in lower dynamics as well to illustrate the difference.)

And things get worse when some of the samples have tuning issues. Here’s another example, this time with the English Horn. The doubling effect is again overly clear, but there’s something else: the last two arpeggiating figures are played with the Long Articulation (not the Legato) and I included them to illustrate the unpleasant effect of the out-of-tune high velocity samples around A2. Combine intonation issues with the doubling issue and you get something that really should not be part of a supposedly high-end sample library, in my opinion.

*Example 3: English Horn Legato/Longs*

That said, there’s some good stuff in this library as well of course. (I’m not wild about the flutes — as generic- and bland-sounding as the ones in the original VSL Woodwinds, I find —, but a.o. the piccolo, the bass clarinet and some articulations of the bassoon are definitely keepers. And the desks and ensembles are very useful too.)

On the whole though, this feels (to me) like a very rushed release, uncharacteristically troubled by a level of quality control that is far below the standard that VSL seems to be known for.

_


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 16, 2021)

Dynamic movements in Synchron Woodwinds and Brass should utilize Timbre Adjust. Drastic mod wheel movements without it can introduce some phasey stuff.

To be honest, legato patch _f_-_fff_ dynamics should generally be set to a value of 127, and the differences between those dynamics are determined by other parameters: Expression, Filter (sometimes), and Timbre Adjust.

Another gripe:

People should use examples from the classical/film score literature. Noodling around on random notes then wondering why things don't sound natural isn't the best for illustrating grievances. Pull an oboe solo from Beethoven 6th, or En. Horn from Dvorak...


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## ptram (Dec 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> the ‘doubling’ sound when playing legato at higher dynamics


Sounds like velocity crossfade overlapping. I fear there is no way to avoid it in any sampled library. The good thing, with Synchron Player and wind instruments, is that you can avoid the crossfade point, and effectively use Timbre Adjust in that area, instead.

Paolo


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Haven’t read the entire thread so maybe what follows has been discussed already, but anyway, I bought the standard version of the Synchron Woodwinds earlier today and, spending some time with it after installation, I must say that amidst the reasons to be cheerful, part III, there’s also rather a lot I’m surprised to find in what I assume to be ‘flagship’ library.
> 
> Won’t go into all my misgivings right now cause I want to ilustrate every comment with audio examples and that takes time which I don’t have at the moment, so I’ll just focus on one that really bothers me: the ‘doubling’ sound when playing legato at higher dynamics. It’s really quite bad at times, I must say. (Certainly too bad, I feel, for a top-drawer product from Vienna.) Many of the instruments suffer from it, but it is particularly noticeable (and annoying) in the double reeds.
> 
> ...


Well, if you get so picky and of to search for single samples that are not to your liking, I guess we have made quite a good job regarding the overall number of samples in this library 

Regarding the legatos: You can force such results with crossfade set to certain sweet-spots on almost all libraries that are not phase adjusted. (Luckely we don't do that, as it drastically degrades the sound qualities IMO.)
But, if you use this library as intended, you will rarely get such issues, and then it's an easy fix of moving the crossfade value just a little bit. And, as already mentioned, Timbre adjust is quite a powerful tool and fills the gap that you can't close by traditional velocity crossfading.


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## UDun (Dec 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Haven’t read the entire thread so maybe what follows has been discussed already, but anyway, I bought the standard version of the Synchron Woodwinds earlier today and, spending some time with it after installation, I must say that amidst the reasons to be cheerful, part III, there’s also rather a lot I’m surprised to find in what I assume to be ‘flagship’ library.
> 
> Won’t go into all my misgivings right now cause I want to ilustrate every comment with audio examples and that takes time which I don’t have at the moment, so I’ll just focus on one that really bothers me: the ‘doubling’ sound when playing legato at higher dynamics. It’s really quite bad at times, I must say. (Certainly too bad, I feel, for a top-drawer product from Vienna.) Many of the instruments suffer from it, but it is particularly noticeable (and annoying) in the double reeds.
> 
> ...


I raised similar issues to VSL support. Their answer was it is played by human people so it is normal to hear out of tune notes (low flutes), high noise (clarinet high velocity), loud clicks (oboe), ringing reed noises (clarinet), crossfade issues (contrabassoon)... I am not convinced and I feel these audio artefacts should be made less audible. I also feel this is a rushed release and I think for now they prefer not to have a backlog of issues to fix. But fine maybe they will come with fresh ears after Christmas. VSL did an awesome work this year anyway !


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

UDun said:


> I raised similar issues to VSL support. Their answer was it is played by human people so it is normal to hear out of tune notes (low flutes), high noise (clarinet high velocity), loud clicks (oboe), ringing reed noises (clarinet), crossfade issues (contrabassoon)... I am not convinced and I feel these audio artefacts should be made less audible. I also feel this is a rushed release and I think for now they prefer not to have a backlog of issues to fix. But fine maybe they will come with fresh ears after Christmas. VSL did an awesome work this year anyway !


You can always reduce the Close / Mid mics to get less clicks and noises. These mic positions are not intended to be used as main mic. Unless you know exactly what you are doing I highly recommend to stick to the provided mixer presets and tweak them just a little bit.


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## re-peat (Dec 16, 2021)

Ben said:


> Well, if you get so picky and of to search for single samples that are not to your liking (...)



Believe it or not, Ben, but that English Horn example was only the third thing I tried with the instrument. I didn’t “search” for bad or out-of-tune samples, this one simply appeared from under my fingers within the first few minutes of exploring the instrument, while I was determining how bad the crossfade overlapping problem is.

It’s just that I can’t rhyme these things with what is sold as a top product. I’m aware that crossfade overlapping is a challenge for developers — been working with sample libraries for well over two decades, the issue is not new to me — but I am a bit suprised to find it still so glaringly present, and as the default setting no less, in the new Synchron woodwinds.

As yes, I know I can work around it, but that doesn’t mean the issue should be kept silent about, I feel. No? Moreover: implement a degree of that work-around in an update and you have a better library, it seems to me. Surely, that would be a good thing?

Oh, something else. A tiny thing. Not even a critical comment, just a suggestion for something the VSL programmers might want to look at, one day. And I didn’t search for this, I stumbled onto it while trying to give the flute a bit more breath. With several of the patches, the high-shelf EQ has a very extreme default Q-setting (value ‘6’). Not good. A much better starting value for a high-shelf EQ would be something like, say, 0.5 or thereabouts. Setting it right to begin with will avoid much unnecessary mouse-clicking and parameter-fiddling.

_


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

@re-peat As I said, during testing of the release version I did not encounter such issues to this degree. During testing, while trying to provoke crossfade overlap issues, I noticed that disabling the mic delay in the mixer channels will reduce this effect.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> English Horn example was only the third thing I tried with the instrument


Go try it with Dvorak. 😉


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## re-peat (Dec 16, 2021)

I had hoped your earlier comment — _“People should use examples from the classical / film score literature to illustrate their grievances with.”_, among the stupidest things I’ve ever read on VI-C, or anywhere else — was just an isolated fit of utter idiocy, Stephen, hence my not replying to it, but I see you’re sticking with it.

Dear me.

I don’t buy sample libraries to do something as pointless and silly as mocking up Beethoven or Dvořák. I buy them to do my own music with. (If that is not a recommended way of using VSL libraries, as you imply, VSL ought to make mention of that on their website.) And when, doing my own music (or trying to), I encounter problems, problems I feel the developer might want to look at, I let them know. In the hope something good comes of it. That’s all.

You VSL people aren’t at your best when someone dares to express — in what I thought was certainly not an aggressive or disrespectful tone — a critical comment, are you? You all immediately act as if sacrilege has been committed, as if the Grand Illusion of VSL’s Superiority and Infallibility is under grave threat, and respond invariably with arrogant and insufferably patronizing — plus, in your specific case: deeply stupid — replies. Really weird. And so unwise. I doesn’t surprise me anymore, because it’s always been like that, but it remains quite disappointing and annoying nonetheless.

_


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I’m trying to teach YouTube to fast-forward automatically every time Christian “If-I-don’t-make-it-onto-the-Queen’s-New-Year’s-Honours-list-soon-I’ll-feel-soooo-underappreciated” Henson hovers into view, but no dice so far. Dashed annoying. Him and Michelmore (the fella that exhibits everything that makes the Brits so disliked in every continental holiday resort) all but ruin the Spitfire experience for me



I simply can't understand it either, Piet. It's almost as if some of the things you write rub people up the wrong way.......


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I had hoped your earlier comment — _“People should use examples from the classical / film score literature to illustrate their grievances with.”_, among the stupidest things I’ve ever read on VI-C, or anywhere else — was just an isolated fit of utter idiocy, Stephen, hence my not replying to it, but I see you’re sticking with it.
> 
> Dear me.
> 
> ...


While I agree with you on "VSL libraries are not only for classical music", I hope you agree on that the examples you posted do not represent anything you would do with any library.
I've also tried to explain what you can do to avoid such results, but looks like you are not interested in solutions.




re-peat said:


> You VSL people aren’t at your best when someone dares to express — in what I thought was certainly not an aggressive or disrespectful tone — a critical comment, are you?


Certainly not elegant, and in a very disrespectful "I know best, how you should do your work" way (and that's most of the times the impression I get while reading your posts).
Sorry, I'm not interested in any kind of feedback with such a tone.
Most people here on VI-C know that I always do my best to help, and I'm always open for feedback, and most of these people are very nice, or at least respectful when communicating.

(And please note: I'm not talking for @Stephen Limbaugh. Whatever issues you two have with each other, is none of mine, nor VSL's business - I don't care.)


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## pinki (Dec 16, 2021)

Two all time rub-er-up-ers come head to head.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 16, 2021)

I dunno… the guy strikes me as someone who would write a slurred clarinet ostinato from Ab to C in the middle of the staff and wonder why it doesn’t sound perfect.

The point of testing a library with excerpts is that those excerpts are idiomatic of the instrument, which noodling around on a keyboard is not. (Especially since the noodling didn’t include the pertinent automation... which characteristically for this dissident, went unaddressed.)

Probably best for Repeat to put me on ignore. 

Also, everyone: I am not an employee of VSL. I don’t “represent” VSL except as someone who makes really excellent demos. There was another user who recently claimed to *now* prefer VSL Synchron now to Berlin… and had forgotten they went back and forth with me 5-6 times arguing for Berlin 6 months ago. I don’t need to be a “VSL” guy to simply have been right from the beginning 😂😉😉


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## John Longley (Dec 16, 2021)

I don’t own this library, but the cold response to valid criticism is definitely concerning.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> There was another user who recently claimed to *now* prefer VSL Synchron now to Berlin… and had forgotten they went back and forth with me 5-6 times arguing for Berlin 6 months ago. I don’t need to be a “VSL” guy to simply have been right from the beginning 😂😉😉


I bought both Berlin and Synchron so…they both have their uses. I prefer VSL due to the player primarily. 😉


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## synergy543 (Dec 16, 2021)

John Longley said:


> I don’t own this library, but the cold response to valid criticism is definitely concerning.


I doubt VSL has a problem with valid criticism. It's the tone with which the criticism was presented that was belligerent and extremely passive-aggressive (as most of his posts are). Attitude in communication (especially on the internet) is quite important as there are so few cues to go by. He knows what he's doing though and the effects are clearly intended.

It's a shame though, as I value insightful information from an experienced knowledgeable source. It's just too bad that it's presented in such an insidious and veiled hostile manner.


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## John Longley (Dec 16, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> It's the tone with which the criticism was presented that was belligerent and extremely passive-agressive (as most his posts are). Attitude in communication (especially on the internet) is quite important as there are so few cues to go by.


That’s a generous reading of events, but I have no horse in this race. It’s generally problematic that a representative(s) of a company can’t take some heat, either way. Laugh reacting equally questionable replies isn’t a good look. 

Hopefully this is a one-off event and not indicative of how they receive criticism.


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## synergy543 (Dec 16, 2021)

I have sent numerous reports to VSL and they have always been extremely courteous and amazingly quick to respond. In my experience, they've gone out of their way to be friendly and responsive.


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

John Longley said:


> I don’t own this library, but the cold response to valid criticism is definitely concerning.


Sorry to hear. I'm not happy about these kinds of discussions going out of hand as well.
re-peat and I already had a few such discussions, mostly with similar outcome.



synergy543 said:


> I doubt VSL has a problem with valid criticsm. It's the tone with which the criticism was presented that was belligerent and extremely passive-aggressive (as most of his posts are). Attitude in communication (especially on the internet) is quite important as there are so few cues to go by. He knows what he's doing though and the effects are clearly intended.


Exactly, this is my main problem with his post.
I'm always happy to get honest feeback, and try to solve things as fast as possible, or give feedback.



John Longley said:


> That’s a generous reading of events, but I have no horse in this race. It’s generally problematic that a representative(s) of a company can’t take some heat, either way.


Like I mentioned, we already had negative encounters, this influences such discussions with him, unfortunally.



John Longley said:


> Laugh reacting equally questionable replies isn’t a good look.


Well, Stephen has a special kind of humor - I don't know if this is an American thing, or just a Stephen thing - but it's supposed to be a joke; not exactly my humor, but i get it. 

I'm not a native English speaker, and I can't always express my thoughts as elegant as I would like to.


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## Robert_G (Dec 16, 2021)

Ben said:


> And, as already mentioned, Timbre adjust is quite a powerful tool and fills the gap that you can't close by traditional velocity crossfading.


I've seen tone and 'color' knobs on some libraries and they are usually 'meh'.
VSL on the other hand has got the 'timbre' knob right. It makes transitioning almost seamless....even in some challenging situations. 
I love the Synchron 'timbre' adjustor.


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## ed buller (Dec 16, 2021)

Just bought it. Whilst it hasn't blown me away in the same way that strings and brass did, there's much to like. There IS some noticeable phasing on crossfades for some instruments. Bassoon for one. The flute is a bit of a let down. But the tone overall is superb and once i figure out my fav patches, it will be the heavy lifter in the woodwind section. 

best

ed


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## antames (Dec 16, 2021)

Respect is earned not given.
Just be courteous and civil. It's not that hard.
Leave your ego at the door if you have to and just reply simply without all the hoo-hah and trying to be a smart alec.
You wouldn't talk to your friends or family in that manner. Online should be no exception.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 16, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I bought both Berlin and Synchron so…they both have their uses. I prefer VSL due to the player primarily. 😉


Btw… me and ALNM going back and forth like this is how forum banter works best. A little light “ribbing” is fun and it’s probably how we would act in real life.

Sometimes people (me included) have a tough time with some things in new libraries that are misconstrued as “weaknesses” because certain techniques from previous libraries don’t necessarily comport to the new ones. The velocity crossfade in this case is no exception. That is why Timbre Adjust was introduced for Synchron Brass.

There’s a major difference between saying “hey why this?” and “this is shocking for a high-priced library.” It’s like, dude… just ask on VI-C how to do something and someone here is gonna be able to troubleshoot a difficult passage. 🤙🏻🤠


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## prodigalson (Dec 16, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> just ask on VI-C how to do something and someone here is gonna be able to troubleshoot a difficult passage. 🤙🏻🤠


Hey VI-C, how do I remove phasing when using the higher dynamic layers on Synchron Woodwinds?


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## JTB (Dec 16, 2021)

So the marcato start patches are stacked. Or 'Stack-ato' if you will.


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> Hey VI-C, how do I remove phasing when using the higher dynamic layers on Synchron Woodwinds?





Ben said:


> if you use this library as intended, you will rarely get such issues, and then it's an easy fix of moving the crossfade value just a little bit. And, as already mentioned, Timbre adjust is quite a powerful tool and fills the gap that you can't close by traditional velocity crossfading.





Ben said:


> During testing, while trying to provoke crossfade overlap issues, I noticed that disabling the mic delay in the mixer channels will reduce this effect.


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## JTB (Dec 16, 2021)

Evans said:


> But isn't Erisno's response still applicable? If you think there's an important enough difference, shouldn't you simply be able to hear it in the demos and walkthrough videos so far?


The difference is... whether or not I have an entirely different sustain patch to work with. And whether or not that patch represents a musicians interpretation of a marcato start technique or a sample editors interpretation of a marcato start patch.


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## re-peat (Dec 16, 2021)

Ben said:


> I hope you agree on that the examples you posted do not represent anything you would do with any library.



Of course I agree, Ben. Although, apart from the repeating arpeggiated figures, which I only included for illustrative purposes — trying to be helpful by isolating the problem_ as audible as possible_, you know (*) —, I don’t find my examples unfairly demanding for a good sample library either. If a sample library struggles with, for instance, my second Oboe example, I don’t think one is all that wrong or unusually “picky” with a diagnosis that there’s a problem with it.

(*) I must say, I find the insinuation, equally persistently voiced by you and Stephen, that I don’t know how to work with sample libraries a bit offensive, you know. It is of course the tried-and-tested strategy of VSL when countering less-than-enthusiastic remarks: paint the user-who-has-a-criticism as a clutz. He or she obviously doesn’t know how to operate our wonderful software and any poor-sounding examples made with it are always and entirely the result of that user’s incompetence and VSL-unworthiness. (Stephen’s doing it again in his latest reply, I see.)

I know you did your best to suggest a possible solution, Ben, and I appreciate that. And then I replied that maybe VSL might implement that same solution, or a feasable degree of it at least, in an update. Surely there was nothing wrong with that suggestion? Nor with the one, I hope, about looking at the default Q-values of the EQ-parameters because they’re set wrongly (which, if you inquire, you’ll find even the VSL Tonmeisters will agree with).

So, I’m really curious to see you find an example of me adopting the wrong tone or being disrespectfully _“I know best how you should do you work”_ in my previous posts in this thread. My first post combined a few critical observations with a modest sprinkling of praise (making an effort to get off on the right foot, you know — like Ed rightly says: there is much to like), nothing anyone could get upset about, I feel. And what occurred afterwards is entirely of your and Stephen’s making rather than mine. As you well know. (First, Stephen’s with his already legendary “use only classical / film score literature for grievance examples” and ridiculing mine, and then you by implying, in the very first sentence of your first response, that I have some malicious agenda here. Insinuating that I actually “searched” for problems and bad samples, only to be able, I suppose, to make a nuisance of myself.) I’m not wired like that, Ben. (And I don’t have the time either.) You don’t know me of course, but people who do, believe me, will confirm it.

We also seem to have a different idea of what constitutes “being open to feedback”. After UDun voiced a few concerns, you replied with “If you don’t know exactly what you’re doing, stick to the mixer presets”. That’s not being open to feedback, let alone being helpful, if you ask me. It’s patronizing and borderline insulting. It's the same thing as you did with me: the user has no clue. Being helpful and open to feedback would be, at the very least, considering that, maybe, the user might have a point and, unthinkable as it may seem to you, the product might indeed contain a few imperfections. You don’t even have to acknowledge these imperfections just yet, but at least showing a hint of willingness to consider the possibility of their existence would be so much nicer as a response than immediately dismissing the issue with a belittling comment. I mean, what is UDun to think after this? 

Anyway, winding this thing to a more-than-welcome close: I fully understand that you don’t like me after what I said about the two Synchron pianos which I have, and how I said it. And I also know I have the regrettable and sadly incorrigible habit, when registering a complaint, of using a kind of language that, before the matter can even be addressed, more often than not creates acrimony rather than inspire goodwill or encourage a listening ear. My bad. I’m sorry about that. 
That being said, I hope you are still able to look again at my library-related comments in my previous posts, in an unprejudiced frame of mind this time, and maybe forward them to the people at VSL who work on these things. I really think, without presuming anything, that it will benefit the library. (Which is the only reason I entered this thread in the first place.)

And finally, please expunge the idea from your mind that I’m a VSL-hater. I’m not. There’s lots of VSL I like and even more I use frequently. (If you care to check my account, you’ll find I purchased tons of your product over the years.). It’s just that, every once in a while, I come across something in often otherwise fine libraries which I want to draw your attention to. 

Thanks!

_


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## Ben (Dec 16, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Of course I agree, Ben. Although, apart from the repeating arpeggiated figures, which I only included for illustrative purposes — trying to be helpful by isolating the problem_ as audible as possible_, you know (*) —, I don’t find my examples unfairly demanding for a good sample library either. If a sample library struggles with, for instance, my second Oboe example, I don’t think one is all that wrong or unusually “picky” with a diagnosis that there’s a problem with it.
> 
> (*) I must say, I find the insinuation, equally persistently voiced by you and Stephen, that I don’t know how to work with sample libraries a bit offensive, you know. It is of course the tried-and-tested strategy of VSL when countering less-than-enthusiastic remarks: paint the user-who-has-a-criticism as a clutz. He or she obviously doesn’t know how to operate our wonderful software and any poor-sounding examples made with it are always and entirely the result of that user’s incompetence and VSL-unworthiness. (Stephen’s doing it again in his latest reply, I see.)
> 
> ...



Thank you for taking the time to post this.
In general, I don't necassarely agree with your critisism, and in such cases I'll just post my point of view on the topic. However, this is not supposed to shut anyone down or me having issue with feedback. I'll always appreciate honest feedback and do my best to find a solution, or report the issues, so they can be fixed.
Therefore, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding caused from my side.
Also, I did not intend to belittling anyone, you and UDun included. As I mentioned, English is not my primary language, I'm not nearly as articulate as you are.
I'm also not a marketing guy, nor did I get any marketing training. I'm a software developer, and thanks to some "happy little accidents" I landed at VSL, and I absolutely love working on something that previously was just a hobby.

This said, let's forget the entire non-topic discussion and stick to the topic, if this is ok for you.


Regarding @UDun 's feedback regarding instrument noise: We decided against removing all these artefacts in editing, as it would remove a lot of character of these instruments. In most cases you should not notice it when using one of the orchestral mixes, because these can primarly be heard in the close and mid mics. But if you like these artifacts, you can use these mics to add it in a solo passagem or when the instrument is not being used in orchestral context.


@JTB Again, sorry, I don't know. Like I mentioned, it doesn't sound to me like it is a stacked articulation. If you need further information on that, please contact [email protected].


@re-peat Yes, you can get such phasing issues, but in my experience it is very unlikely to get these while working with the library. If you experience these you can try following to eleminate this effect:
- Try to avoid the critical VelXF positions, and use Timbre Adjust instead
- Check if disabling mic delay in the mixer solves this issue

Wet libraries have certain restrictions on how much editing you can do before the quality degrades too much / the editing is noticable. Phasing on VelXF can happen, but in most cases you should be able to easily work around it, if it is audible.

I'll double check the phasing during the internal testing for the planned update, that will add the 2nd players. 
If there are instruments that in your opinion have too much phasing, feel free to PM the instrument, selected mixer preset (or the custom one you used), the articulation, and the VelXF position. This way it's easy I can better test specifically for these issues and report them back to the editing team.

Regarding the EQ settings: Sure, I'm happy to report it, please send me the details regarding instrument and used preset.

Best, Ben


----------



## DJiLAND (Dec 16, 2021)

When an instrument is recorded in the real world, there is more noise.
Please add a Synchron Breath Noise, Ben.


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## axb312 (Dec 16, 2021)

Find VSL's tone here a bit condescending and disturbing tbh...


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## emilio_n (Dec 16, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Find VSL's tone here a bit condescending and disturbing tbh...


Honestly, I wish that other developers are so responsive as VSL is in this forum. Most of the developers will not waste a single minute writing in a Sample talk thread. You need to take in mind that is not the same read an answer or read it. Some small limitations to writing in English also doesn't help.

English is not my mother language and I was lost in translation in the past.


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## UDun (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> Regarding @UDun 's feedback regarding instrument noise: We decided against removing all these artefacts in editing, as it would remove a lot of character of these instruments. In most cases you should not notice it when using one of the orchestral mixes, because these can primarly be heard in the close and mid mics. But if you like these artifacts, you can use these mics to add it in a solo passagem or when the instrument is not being used in orchestral context.


Just to be clear, my request was not to completely remove the noise which I think as well adds some good character. I was just suggesting to make it a bit more consistent/with a lower level when it is very different from one note to the other so that it doesn't draw the attention to it like an audio artifact. I am using the Room Mix (not only Close/Mid), and this is the first time with a VSL product where after 10min of playing, when you get used of the details of the sound, I realized that in an exposed line I would need to avoid revolving around certain notes, transitions or velocities too much. In a mix, yes this is not noticeable but I was hoping not to have to hide that. The whole Synchron serie is awesome and I am happy to say that I fully moved my template to VSL thanks to the quality of the recordings, the editing and Synchron Player. Just a bit disappointed compared to other releases but I really hope the second instruments will bring some nice variations and maybe the team will give a look at the editing consistency accross the board


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## pinki (Dec 17, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Find VSL's tone here a bit condescending and disturbing tbh...


Not really, I think it’s more the fan-boy’s that have this attitude. Perhaps the VSL demo writers should not get involved when there is a criticism? I think Ben has just turned it around though and does a marvellous job here. There is a particular codified way of communicating on forums and re-peat does not use it, but I value re-peat‘s challenging posts and his idiomatic use of language. Not everyone’s cup of tea for sure but the world is a multifarious place.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 17, 2021)

After reading Repeat's post and Ben's response yesterday I wanted to suggest exactly the solution you two found now since I didn't sense any harmful emotions but rather useful suggestions for improvement. 
Honest, serious and competent critic (which btw is a rare gift) might disturb the marketing hype of a new released product at the moment but in the end I'm pretty sure that Vsl would have a lot of invaluable advantage if they listen and fix issues as much and as fast as possible.
This, at least for me, builds more trust and desire to get my hands on the product than any praising and self defense ever would do.


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## ed buller (Dec 17, 2021)

UDun said:


> Just to be clear, my request was not to completely remove the noise which I think as well adds some good character. I was just suggesting to make it a bit more consistent/with a lower level when it is very different from one note to the other so that it doesn't draw the attention to it like an audio artifact. I am using the Room Mix (not only Close/Mid), and this is the first time with a VSL product where after 10min of playing, when you get used of the details of the sound, I realized that in an exposed line I would need to avoid revolving around certain notes, transitions or velocities too much. In a mix, yes this is not noticeable but I was not hoping to have to hide that. The whole Synchron serie is awesome and I am happy to say that I fully moved my template to VSL thanks to the quality of the recordings, the editing and Synchron Player. Just a bit disappointed compared to other releases but I really hope the second instruments will bring some nice variations and maybe the team will give a look at the editing consistency accross the board


I honestly think there are some issues with the sample editing that need fixing. There are many occasions when a "chorusing" effect is clearly heard. Both in Transitions and single notes. It's on quite a few instruments . I hope the 2nd's don't sound like this and at some stage the Library is updated to remove these artifacts. In all other respects it sounds fabulous .

best

ed


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 17, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Haven’t read the entire thread so maybe what follows has been discussed already, but anyway, I bought the standard version of the Synchron Woodwinds earlier today and, spending some time with it after installation, I must say that amidst the reasons to be cheerful, part III, there’s also rather a lot I’m surprised to find in what I assume to be ‘flagship’ library.
> 
> Won’t go into all my misgivings right now cause I want to ilustrate every comment with audio examples and that takes time which I don’t have at the moment, so I’ll just focus on one that really bothers me: the ‘doubling’ sound when playing legato at higher dynamics. It’s really quite bad at times, I must say. (Certainly too bad, I feel, for a top-drawer product from Vienna.) Many of the instruments suffer from it, but it is particularly noticeable (and annoying) in the double reeds.
> 
> ...


As much as I can hear the problems you are talking about in these examples you have done, they actually sound miles better than most of the demo material out there, and shows that the instruments do have a very nice tone and dynamic range. So maybe contrary to logic, they have pulled me closer to buying the library  And if some of those issues can be lessened by adjusting some setting inside Synchron Player, even more so.


----------



## UDun (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> I honestly think there are some issues with the sample editing that need fixing. There are many occasions when a "chorusing" effect is clearly heard. Both in Transitions and single notes. It's on quite a few instruments . I hope the 2nd's don't sound like this and at some stage the Library is updated to remove these artifacts. In all other respects it sounds fabulous .
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Totally agree.


----------



## ed buller (Dec 17, 2021)

Bizarley NONE of these problems exist on either the Clarinet OR Bass Clarinet. They sound about as perfect as a sample instrument can !....So these should be the blueprint. It's most noticeable on the double reeds. And a bit on the flute. Still well worth owning though, especially as it's on sale !

best

ed


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

UDun said:


> Just to be clear, my request was not to completely remove the noise which I think as well adds some good character. I was just suggesting to make it a bit more consistent/with a lower level when it is very different from one note to the other so that it doesn't draw the attention to it like an audio artifact. I am using the Room Mix (not only Close/Mid), and this is the first time with a VSL product where after 10min of playing, when you get used of the details of the sound, I realized that in an exposed line I would need to avoid revolving around certain notes, transitions or velocities too much. In a mix, yes this is not noticeable but I was hoping not to have to hide that. The whole Synchron serie is awesome and I am happy to say that I fully moved my template to VSL thanks to the quality of the recordings, the editing and Synchron Player. Just a bit disappointed compared to other releases but I really hope the second instruments will bring some nice variations and maybe the team will give a look at the editing consistency accross the board


Ok, now I get it. Could you please pm me a short example of this issue? (midi, mp3)


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## Jack Weaver (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Bizarley NONE of these problems exist on either the Clarinet OR Bass Clarinet. They sound about as perfect as a sample instrument can !....So these should be the blueprint. It's most noticeable on the double reeds. And a bit on the flute. Still well worth owning though, especially as it's on sale !
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Prolly 'cause there is no vibrato xfade option on these two.

.


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

Jack Weaver said:


> Prolly 'cause there is no vibrato xfade option on these two.
> 
> .


O wow, I totally forgot about this... Thanks for reminding.
Yes, you should avoid the Bermuda-Triangle-of-xfade-phasing of two velocities x vibrato xfade.


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## ed buller (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> O wow, I totally forgot about this... Thanks for reminding.
> Yes, you should avoid the Bermuda-Triangle-of-xfade-phasing of two velocities x vibrato xfade.


explain please. My issue is mostly with note transitions. In legato and normal patches..without using any vibrato cross-fading. It's really just Modwheel and the dynamics and transitions between notes where you hear it the most. 

best

ed


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> explain please. My issue is mostly with note transitions. In legato and normal patches..without using any vibrato cross-fading. It's really just Modwheel and the dynamics and transitions between notes where you hear it the most.
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Could you please send me a MIDI or Cubase project file demonstrating this via PM?
This way I can troubleshoot what's causing the issue and come back to you with a workable solution (or report it to the editing team). Also, please attach a short MP3 demonstrating this. Thanks!


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## ed buller (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> Could you please send me a MIDI or Cubase project file demonstrating this via PM?
> This way I can troubleshoot what's causing the issue and come back to you with a workable solution (or report it to the editing team). Also, please attach a short MP3 demonstrating this. Thanks!


yes no problem. What's your PM ?....or how do i find it 

best

ed


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> yes no problem. What's your PM ?....or how do i find it
> 
> best
> 
> ed


If you click on my username, a popup with the button "Start conversation" will appear.


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## ed buller (Dec 17, 2021)

View attachment Ignor Stravinsky.mp3


this is an example. Nothing used but mod wheel on a legato patch

best

ed


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> View attachment Ignor Stravinsky.mp3
> 
> 
> this is an example. Nothing used but mod wheel on a legato patch
> ...


Thanks, but I'll also need a midi, or better Cubase project file as well, so I can look into it.


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## ed buller (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> Thanks, but I'll also need a midi, or better Cubase project file as well, so I can look into it.


I tried but the PM function doesn't allow this. I'll put it up on BOX. send me your e-mail please



e


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> I tried but the PM function doesn't allow this. I'll put it up on BOX. send me your e-mail please
> 
> it's here : https://app.box.com/s/n4jejkcd38q3t3hqd5tdr66ewz6wz5rp
> 
> e


I've sent you a PM.


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## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

Hi,

I'm quite a bit late to catch up on the developments, discussions on this thread.

I'm noticing some heated discussions about phasing issues with the Oboe Legato. What's the deal there ? Is it due to the vibrato ? or something else ?

I didn't even purchase Synchron Woodwinds yet, but plan to do so this weekend, in addition to the new Synchron Harp.

Any summery on what's the status of this phasing issue that's being discussed would be helpful. Is it only the Solo Oboe, or other Solo double reeds have it as well, the ensemble as well ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## SupremeFist (Dec 17, 2021)

I guess the good news is that this mainly affects the oboe, which is a horrible instrument that no one should use?


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## ptram (Dec 17, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> I guess the good news is that this mainly affects the oboe, which is a horrible instrument that no one should use?


The oboe is the heir of wind instruments meant for lust. This is an age where it should be banned!

Paolo


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## richhickey (Dec 17, 2021)

I have to say that it's not a good look for vendors and their hired hands to be jumping on (some quite experienced) users here who are having problems or have issues with their libraries. VSL (Ben et al) has been doing this a lot recently. First of all, it's bad business since these are your _*customers*_. Second, there's already a Commercial section for vendors where they can be free of open-ended criticism. This section is for users to share their unvarnished experiences with other users so we can make informed decisions. It's fine for a vendor to clarify something but not fine for them to make out that the user is wrong IMO, especially when they are clearly onto something. If you can't bear the criticism without jumping on the messenger perhaps you should stay in the commercial forum.

Not wanting to bring the wrath of the vendor on myself, I'll summarize my thoughts on Synchron WW in the most positive way I can:

VSL's VI woodwinds are one of the best WW libraries ever made and remain unsurpassed by most, including by VSL's own Synchron WW.


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## re-peat (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> NONE of these problems exist on either the Clarinet OR Bass Clarinet.



I certainly don’t want to sour the mood again but … I’m afraid the bass clarinet (and clarinet) suffer every bit as much from what I mentioned earlier — that chorus-y doubling effect — as the double reeds do, it just sounds different with these single reeds because of their totally different timbre. But it really is the exact same problem.

Here’s an example, and you’ll hear it occurring within the first two seconds and many times after.

*Example 4: Bass Clarinet Legato*

You hear that chorus-y ‘singing’ sound? That’s a sound that a solo instrument will never generate. It can't. The reason we hear it here is because you’re listening to two samples super-imposed, as the instrument fades in and out of a solo and a doubled state.

I quite like the Synchron bass clarinet, that is to say: some of its articulations. But not when it sounds like it does in the above example. That's something I would never want to use in any piece where some degree of make-believe is desired.

Just to be clear: it is not phasing. Phasing is something very different and can only come from two identical or near-identical signals that are poorly aligned. Which gives that 'hollow' sound. That isn’t the case here. Which is why I call it ‘chorus-y’. (It’s not real chorusing either of course, but it has a vaguely similar sort of singing/ringing quality to it, caused by the doubling.)

Also done a bit more work with the Timbre Adjust parameter which we were told, not without some warmth, we are supposed to use to address this problem. Well, I am sorry, but that is no solution at all, I am now convinced. The Timbre Adjust parameter masks the problem, sure, but by filtering you out of the very dynamic range where you wanna be in. And that's no good, is it? You can’t use Timbre Adjust to any effective extent if you’re somewhere above mezzo forte because its lowpass filtering simply pushes you back to a much darker and softer timbre. No use whatsoever. For other things, sure, but not to reduce this ‘doubling’ problem to something I can work with.

I’ve more bad news: the more time I spend with this library, the less I like it. I’m sorry but that’s how it is. (There’s a large handful of other little things I could mention which I feel could and should be better than they are, but there’s probably no point in doing that.)

I feel the library still needs A LOT of work before it can wear the Synchron badge with justification and pride. In its current state, I find it sounds and behaves more like some cheap and clumsily assembled, pale Synchron-imitation. Still enough patches and single articulations for each of the instruments that can be put to good use, absolutely, but looked at as a whole, I am very much of the opinion that this is nowhere near as ready as its developer likes us to believe it is.

_


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 17, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I certainly don’t want to sour the mood again but … I’m afraid the bass clarinet (and clarinet) suffer every bit as much from what I mentioned earlier — that chorus-y doubling effect — as the double reeds do, it just sounds different with these single reeds because of their totally different timbre. But it really is the exact same problem.
> 
> Here’s an example, and you’ll hear it occuring within the first two seconds and many times after.
> 
> ...


My fears that this release was rushed and incomplete for the Christmas traffic are even more apparent now,still no Vsl walkthroughs, Ben said they were incoming days ago, I was nervous before about purchasing this library because I already bought woodwinds from Vsl that I simply dont use,now with all this comming out, I dont even know anymore if I will purchase this library at all,thank you for taking the time to explain and share your experience so far,really appreciate you taking the time.To All of you that are kind enough to address their problems here and experience. Kind regards.


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

richhickey said:


> VSL (Ben et al) has been doing this a lot recently.


1. I'm currently the only active VSL personal here on VI-C (and right now I'm considering if I should stay; it's not part my job description to be here, I did it because I like to get in touch with people with similar interests).
2. I was not aware that I've "been doing this a lot recently".
3. I had never the intention to stop any discussion, positive or negative comments / feedback about a product. 
re-peat's last post is a good example of feedback where I personally do not agree with his conclusion, but I'm fine with him expressing his thoughts this way, and have no intention of further discussing this, as I already stated my position, offered a solution, as well as promised to look into these issues in near future.


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> still no Vsl walkthroughs, Ben said they were incoming days ago,


I've posted the walkthrough over a week ago:



Ben said:


> Walkthrough Part I: Soloists








VSL Synchron Woodwinds! - 2nd soloists available


Both are French Oboes. Awesome! Bought!




vi-control.net


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> I've posted the walkthrough over a week ago:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We spoke about this,you said there was more incoming 2 days ago,kind regards.


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

RicardoSilva said:


> We spoke about this,you said there was more incoming 2 days ago,kind regards.


Now I'm really confused...


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> Now I'm really confused...


Hi Ben,you and I spoke about this video and others ,and you told me to stay tuned because there was more videos from Vsl coming.Kind regards.


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## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

Reading some of the comments and audio examples that have been posted by @re-peat , is quite disturbing, and making me think twice about buying this library.

@Ben,

You are a very special person on this forum, and your efforts to help, and serve us are beyond words. Please don't let the negativity posted get to you, it's just about a library we are discussing, not personal comments on this forum, and we want VSL Synchron Woodwinds to sound as close as possible to the real instruments, without phasing issues.

If this is something VSL can fix, then let us know, if not, then I think it is a problem. As simple as that.

I won't be purchasing Synchron Woodwinds until this is fixed, or instructions on how to avoid it are posted.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

Yes, there are more videos in pipeline. You mentioned you missed the walkthrough, but it's already available.
If you are looking for a walkthrough of the Ensemble and FX sections: We'll publish it soon. If you don't want to wait you can check out the BBO walkthroughs in the meantime (same content):






And there are also more demo screencasts coming as well. You might have noticed that we just released the Synchron Harp + startet a MIR sale two days ago, and therefore released videos related to these sales in the last two days...


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 17, 2021)

Here's my perspective - VSL is among the most engaged developer here on Vi-C (which by the way, is just one of many large composer-centric communities - certainly not the center of a sample developer's universe). Part of engaging with customers also requires customers to be cordial and respectful towards the developers - at least, as much as the developer deserves it. In my opinion, Ben has been very helpful to majority of folks here and is one person trying to answer a ton of questions.

My second perspective is there are a lot of people that buy libraries and their main contribution to this community is "the legato is wrong" or something to that effect. Or they will jump on board other comments of that sort and keep asking for "fixes" (without having bought or tried the library themselves - which is comical really). None of these opinions are wrong - OR RIGHT. They are opinions on what people think a library / articulation should sound like. They may be aligned or not to what the developer's perspective is. And certainly, not everybody will hear the same. People need to use their own damn ears more here - AND learn how to program the libraries to maximize their potential. There's a lot of expectation that the library will do everything for you. Even a live player won't do that. You have to work with what you have.


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## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

Are the phasing issues that @re-peat has posted i.e. with the Oboe, reproduceable by other users ? 

I think this will help confirm the issue/s .


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Please don't let the negativity posted get to you, it's just about a library we are discussing, not personal comments on this forum


Well, it got personal here very quickly...



muziksculp said:


> we want VSL Synchron Woodwinds to sound as close as possible to the real instruments, without phasing issues.


1. I can't say "we are going to fix it", if I did not had the time yet to evaluate the complain first as well as talk to the team. I don't promise anything if I don't know if I can deliver.
2. This is my opinion, anyone please don't take this personal: You can take any library and force a perspective, where it will not sound good.
All sample libraries have their limitations, but that's not the entire picture.
For example using velocity crossfade, and just move the fader around the point where two velocity layers meet is not the intended use-case. If you still want to use a library contrary to what it is designed to do, you will not get the results.

Again, I'm not attacking anyone, nor saying that you are wrong - I still have to evaluate everything. From what I've seen so far and the MIDI examples I've got, it looks to me like the library is not used correctly, and therefore does not sound correct.

Check out the walkthroughs I've posted, check out all the demos, check out reviews of the library, and after that you should get a pretty good idea of what the library can or can not do.
Like I said, during testing I did not encounter this issue to this degree (and it's technically also not phasing, but hearing two sample layers that are not phase aligned at the same time for a brief moment), nor did I hear it in any demo or review so far.


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

Btw, here is a review by Dom Sigalas, that was published a few hours ago:


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## ed buller (Dec 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Are the phasing issues that @re-peat has posted i.e. with the Oboe, reproduceable by other users ?
> 
> I think this will help confirm the issue/s .


yes...and he is right it's NOT phasing...it's more a doubling chorus sound.It's present on some patches at certain intervals, I haven't been able to defeat it. I have high hopes this will get fixed. I'm of the opinion that VSL are very thorough about these things and won't want unhappy clients. The other Synchron Libraries are phenomenal. I just can't believe they won't want this to be too. 

best

ed


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> yes...and he is right it's NOT phasing...it's more a doubling chorus sound. I have high hopes this will get fixed. I'm of the opinion that VSL are very thorough about these things and won't want unhappy clients. The other Synchron Libraries are phenomenal. I just can't believe they won't want this to be too.
> 
> best
> 
> ed


I would like to say thank you Ed for the posts you made here, this is information that I find important and will help me with my decision, kind regards.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Dec 17, 2021)

ed buller said:


> yes...and he is right it's NOT phasing...it's more a doubling chorus sound.It's present on some patches at certain intervals, I haven't been able to defeat it. I have high hopes this will get fixed. I'm of the opinion that VSL are very thorough about these things and won't want unhappy clients. The other Synchron Libraries are phenomenal. I just can't believe they won't want this to be too.
> 
> best
> 
> ed


I think this happens because VSL use a very short legato interval sample, so basically, as soon as you change notes, it plays a legato interval, then immediately x-fades to the long sustain sample. In many other libraries the legato intervals are longer, and you'll only notice this after maybe a second, when the x-fade happens. E.g. in Berlin Strings it's very obvious when that x-fade happens in many cases. I think Cinematic Studio Woodwinds also have quite a bit longer legato interval samples with shorter x-fades into the sustain samples to minimize the problem. And of course it's also a matter of being very consistent with recordings and tuning to make the blend as seemless as possible.

Of course, Ben should correct me if I am not right


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## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> it looks to me like the library is not used correctly, and therefore does not sound correct.


Hi @Ben, That surely can be the issue here. It's easy to mess up a good thing by using it the wrong way. I agree with you. 



Ben said:


> For example using velocity crossfade, and just move the fader around the point where two velocity layers meet is not the intended use-case.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. 

So, I will just state what I think you mean. So, If one uses Velocity Xfade, and remains static for a longer time than intended right at the velocity crossfade transition point, then the phasing effect will be amplified a bit more than it should be audible, since the Vel Xfade from one layer to the next should take place in a very short instance of time fraction of a millisecond, that is too fast to produce a phasing effect. 

Is this what you mean ? 

Thanks.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 17, 2021)

OT I know, but SYed Dimension brass has the same issue. It's like you're hearing double signals/instruments playing the same note. I noticed this with trumpet 1 and 2 at the top of the register, playing staccato or regular portato.

Now you probably wouldn't notice it in ensemble, but solo you do hear this. It's subtle, but it's there.

No critique, just an observation.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Dec 17, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> OT I know, but SYed Dimension brass has the same issue. It's like you're hearing double signals/instruments playing the same note. I noticed this with trumpet 1 and 2 at the top of the register, playing staccato or regular portato.
> 
> Now you probably wouldn't notice it in ensemble, but solo you do hear this. It's subtle, but it's there.
> 
> No critique, just an observation.


The dimension series (brass and strings) aren't solo players, you always have bleed from the other players.


----------



## Tralen (Dec 17, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> OT I know, but SYed Dimension brass has the same issue. It's like you're hearing double signals/instruments playing the same note. I noticed this with trumpet 1 and 2 at the top of the register, playing staccato or regular portato.
> 
> Now you probably wouldn't notice it in ensemble, but solo you do hear this. It's subtle, but it's there.
> 
> No critique, just an observation.


Don't know about Dimension, but this is an unavoidable consequence of the samples not being phase aligned. The crossfades between velocity layers sound like 2 notes being played. That is a reason I eventually retired my VSL VI Brass collection and moved to phase aligned libraries, even if sacrificing the tone.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 17, 2021)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> The dimension series (brass and strings) aren't solo players, you always have bleed from the other players.


Oh yes, of course. Like I said, this isn't likely to be a problem when in ensemble.


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> So, I will just state what I think you mean. So, If one uses Velocity Xfade, and remains static for a longer time than intended right at the velocity crossfade transition point, then the phasing effect will be amplified a bit more than it should be audible, since the Vel Xfade from one layer to the next should take place in a very short instance of time fraction of a millisecond, that is too fast to produce a phasing effect.
> 
> Is this what you mean ?


Pretty much, yes. 
Normally you just use the library, and in case you notice these kind of effects you just use higher or lower velocityXF values. You don't need to think about this as long as you don't notice it. In most cases you go through these critical values so fast, that this effect does not get audible.

It's also not a legato thing, but the sustained part of the samples.
With the exception of phase aligned libraries, you can always provoke this effect with solo instruments. For some instruments it's easier to notice; you will also notice it way less with vibrato articulations. Also ensemble instruments do not suffer from this, and Dimension instruments are not meant to be used as solo instruments as well.
Of course we try to minimize this effect as much as possible, and I will discuss it with my colleagues, if we can reduce it further in a future update.

I got some examples via PM where VelXF was constantly moved right around the velocity layer split point. Of course, this will increase the effect to a maximum.

Solution: Use Timbre Adjust to change the timbre, Expression to change the volume, and stay away from the split points / or disable VelXF, in case you are writing exposed lines. 
In combination with other instruments in an orchestration you will probably don't notice this effect as well, even with no, to almost no additional effort.


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## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> I got some examples via PM where VelXF was constantly moved right around the velocity layer split point. Of course, this will increase the effect to a maximum.


Yes, that would surely amplify the issue. So, not the right way to use VelXF. Unless you want to make sure someone hears the issue.



Ben said:


> Solution: Use Timbre Adjust to change the timbre, Expression to change the volume, and stay away from the split points / or disable VelXF, in case you are writing exposed lines.


Yes, this makes sense, and is a good technique/solution to deal with the chorusing effect issue.


Ben said:


> In combination with other instruments in an orchestration you will probably don't notice this effect as well, even with no, to almost no additional effort.


Very true, but when playing solo and in an exposed minimal orchestral setting, one needs to be more careful, and follow the tips you mentioned.

Thank You @Ben. I didn't spend enough time listening, and watching Synchron Woodwinds videos, so I will do that over the weekend, and if you have any further info. or update about the chorusing issue, and maybe a future VSL update to make it less audible, that would be a very nice improvement to this library. I will most likely buy it by Sunday.  

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

@muziksculp Make sure to check out Dom's walkthrough. Great stuff - I wish I had such awesome keyboard skills as well!


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## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> @muziksculp Make sure to check out Dom's walkthrough. Great stuff - I wish I had such awesome keyboard skills as well!


Thanks @Ben,

I will surely do. 

Have a great weekend.


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## ptram (Dec 17, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Here’s an example, and you’ll hear it occurring within the first two seconds and many times after.


Does it happen if you only leave the Close mic on?

Paolo


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## re-peat (Dec 17, 2021)

Ben said:


> it looks to me like the library is not used correctly, and therefore does not sound correct.


Ben, with all due respect, but none of my examples deliberately (or ignorantly) push the library into a performance range where the user should accept that things will sound bad. Apart from the two somewhat unmusical arpeggios given to the English horn (which, like I said, were only included to make the issue as audible as possible for you), everything I posted here are dead simple, ordinary legato lines in various common dynamics. Nothing exceptional, nothing that deviates from standard use. Not a single note or Modwheel movement that stretches a sample library unfairly.

It’s precisely because my examples are so basic and standard, that, given the way they sound, I find the problem deserving of VSL's attention. I agree that if I had put these instruments through some weird, experimental acrobatics with outlandish Modwheel gestures, and then complained that the sound and believability of the results left something to be desired, you would indeed be more than justified to question my intentions and abilities.

But I didn’t do that. I played nothing beyond what every user is bound to play (or program) sooner or later with a library like this: straightforward, standard solo woodwind phrases.




Ben said:


> In most cases you go through these critical values so fast, that this effect does not get audible.


That is not true, I’m afraid. If you go through the "critical values" too fast, you get very unnatural sounding, abrupt timbre changes. I can do you a few audio examples of this, if you like.




Ben said:


> Solution: Use Timbre Adjust to change the timbre, Expression to change the volume, and stay away from the split points / or disable VelXF, in case you are writing exposed lines.


Again, I'm sorry to have to keep contradicting you, but what you're suggesting is not a solution _at all_. Unless you want us to be happy with very poor sounding results. _Timbre Adjust annihilates all timbrally dynamic expression and differentiation._ (Which is quite an essential requirement for musically convincing woodwind performances.) And it’s impossible to “stay away” from the crossfade points if you want a coherent, dynamically vivid and musically satisfying performance. If you stay away from those crossfades, you’re left with two choices: either to have timbrally static lines, or to have very brusque timbre changes, neither of which sounds good. Somewhat odd, I find, that, as a representative of the developer, you would even suggest such a thing.

- - -



ptram said:


> Does it happen if you only leave the Close mic on?



Paolo,

Yes, it does. Below is an example. Only the Close mic. The doubling chorus-y effect is less pronounced here than what you get with multiple mics, obviously, but an unbiased ear can not not hear it, I'm sure.

Also listen for the surprise you're treated to in the higher register of the instrument (towards the close of the example) where it sounds as if the bass clarinet has a sudden change of identity and has decided to go henceforth through life as an accordeon. Quite convincing, I must say.

But before anyone accuses me again of seeking out the worst of this library, I've made sure to end the example with what I believe is something very, very beautiful: the soft low register of the instrument. Gorgeous. That's a sound I want to take a bath in.

*Example 5: Bass Clarinet Legato (Close Mic only)*


_


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 17, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Ben, with all due respect, but none of my examples deliberately (or ignorantly) push the library into a performance range where the user should accept that things will sound bad. Apart from the two somewhat unmusical arpeggios given to the English horn (which, like I said, were only included to make the issue as audible as possible for you), everything I posted here are dead simple, ordinary legato lines in various common dynamics. Nothing exceptional, nothing that deviates from standard use. Not a single note or Modwheel movement that stretches a sample library unfairly.
> 
> It’s precisely because my examples are so basic and standard, that, given the way they sound, I find the problem deserving of VSL's attention. I agree that if I had put these instruments through some weird, experimental acrobatics with outlandish Modwheel gestures, and then complained that the sound and believability of the results left something to be desired, you would indeed be more than justified to question my intentions and abilities.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing this,wow I wasn't expecting that,kind regards.


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## Ben (Dec 17, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Ben, with all due respect, but none of my examples deliberately (or ignorantly) push the library into a performance range where the user should accept that things will sound bad. Apart from the two somewhat unmusical arpeggios given to the English horn (which, like I said, were only included to make the issue as audible as possible for you), everything I posted here are dead simple, ordinary legato lines in various common dynamics. Nothing exceptional, nothing that deviates from standard use. Not a single note or Modwheel movement that stretches a sample library unfairly.
> 
> It’s precisely because my examples are so basic and standard, that, given the way they sound, I find the problem deserving of VSL's attention. I agree that if I had put these instruments through some weird, experimental acrobatics with outlandish Modwheel gestures, and then complained that the sound and believability of the results left something to be desired, you would indeed be more than justified to question my intentions and abilities.
> 
> But I didn’t do that. I played nothing beyond what every user is bound to play (or program) sooner or later with a library like this: straightforward, standard solo woodwind phrases.


Hi Piet!
Since I havn't received a MIDI from you, I have no idea yet how your MIDI data looks like / why your performances have these issues.
My comments were mostly based on my conclusion from the MIDI files that were send to me via PM by other users, and not on your audio examples.



re-peat said:


> Again, I'm sorry to have to keep contradicting you, but that what you're suggestion is not a solution _at all_. Unless you want us to be happy with very poor sounding results. _Timbre Adjust annihilates all timbrally dynamic expression and differentiation._ (Which is quite an essential requirement for musically convincing woodwind performances.) And it’s impossible to “stay away” from the crossfade points if you want a coherent, dynamically vivid and musically satisfying performance. If you stay away from those crossfades, you’re left with two choices: either to have timbrally static lines, or to have very brusque timbre changes, neither of which sounds good. Somewhat odd, I find, that, as a representative of the developer, you would even suggest such a thing.


Well, I don't know why you don't want to use Timbre Adjust, as it is especially designed to allow for timbre changes without crossfading issues. The demo composers used it quite frequently as far as I know, and they were also happy about this feature. This is also the experience I had during testing.

There is another alternative to get movement and timbre change in exposed lines, without running into velocity XF effects: use one of the many other articulations!
Espressivo is designed to give you movement on long notes, reducing velocity issues - and it's also available with legato transitions.
Then there are sforzato, sforzatissimo, Crescendo (2,3,4 sec), and Diminuendo (2,3,4 sec), giving you even more alternatives.

If none of these solutions work for you, I can only recommend to take a look at the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds. They are dry recorded, which makes these artefacts less obvious when used with a little reverb.


----------



## re-peat (Dec 17, 2021)

Timbre Adjust is a great feature offering many useful sculpting possibilities, Ben, I don’t deny that, but it’s no solution for the problem we’re discussing here. As I said before: its lowpass filtering takes you out of the dynamic range where you want or need to be. Simply put: use a lowpass filter on a bright forte, and it’ll no longer sound like a bright forte. Which is a bit of a problem if you want or need a bright forte.

And that is why Timbre Adjust — again: a terrific tool for local expressive nuances — is no solution for the chorus-y doubling issue.

Using the other articulations has been my solution all along. When I said, two or three pages ago, that I know how to work around the problem, that was what I meant: the good old-fashioned method of finding what you need in other articulations, to make up for the imperfections in the articulation that the music asks for. A bit of tedious and time-consuming way of working, but doable.
But thanks for suggesting it.

And also thanks for suggesting the Synchronized Woodwinds. Thing is, I already have the original VSL Woodwinds — and the Woodwind Ensembles (always one of my favourite VSL libraries ever since the old Horizon/ViennaTools days) — plus quite a few high-quality spatializers and reverbs, so I don’t really feel any need for the Synchronized version of these nice and much used libraries.

_


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## troubleclef (Dec 17, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Haven’t read the entire thread so maybe what follows has been discussed already, but anyway, I bought the standard version of the Synchron Woodwinds earlier today and, spending some time with it after installation, I must say that amidst the reasons to be cheerful, part III, there’s also rather a lot I’m surprised to find in what I assume to be ‘flagship’ library.
> 
> Won’t go into all my misgivings right now cause I want to ilustrate every comment with audio examples and that takes time which I don’t have at the moment, so I’ll just focus on one that really bothers me: the ‘doubling’ sound when playing legato at higher dynamics. It’s really quite bad at times, I must say. (Certainly too bad, I feel, for a top-drawer product from Vienna.) Many of the instruments suffer from it, but it is particularly noticeable (and annoying) in the double reeds.
> 
> ...


Damn that phasing is quite bad. Thanks for bringing this up!


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 17, 2021)

richhickey said:


> I have to say that it's not a good look for vendors and their hired hands to be jumping on (some quite experienced) users here who are having problems or have issues with their libraries. VSL (Ben et al) has been doing this a lot recently. First of all, it's bad business since these are your _*customers*_. Second, there's already a Commercial section for vendors where they can be free of open-ended criticism. This section is for users to share their unvarnished experiences with other users so we can make informed decisions. It's fine for a vendor to clarify something but not fine for them to make out that the user is wrong IMO, especially when they are clearly onto something. If you can't bear the criticism without jumping on the messenger perhaps you should stay in the commercial forum.


Rich, totally understand what you are saying here.

The issue is that there is often a concerted effort during a new VSL release, by some, to jump into forum warrioring over dubious problems in bad faith. The moderators here actually had to put out an unofficial "rule" that if you were going to use the opportunity to yammer on for the 1,000th time, about the eLicenser, you needed to do it in a dedicated thread (which is now basically dead).

What remains is about 7 or 8 people, some of whom are totally unauthoratative anons, who do 40% of their total posting to complain about VSL releases. The Repeat guy and I have personal beef... which is useless to relitigate. If he doesn't want to test out new libraries with idiomatic excerpts from the literature, fine. But _thousands_ of people peruse this forum and it's a bit ridiculous as a VSL enthusiast to scroll through dozens of comments that are rife with bad faith criticism, or to be honest, criticism that comes from someone (I'm not talking about the Repeat guy here) who is totally unqualified to give it. It doesn't help anyone if people do this.

"You're just a VSL fanboy" -- I am sure this criticism is in some folk's heads, but is also a bit incomplete. The only reason I landed on VSL, after having the opportunity to sit down with a mentor who owns evvvvverrrryyyyyy single developer's stuff, is that with VSL I could pull off basic melodies without lumpy legato transitions, get a balanced sound, consistency across different articulations, and multi-mic libraries that would lend themselves to the emerging medium of 3D audio.

...and to be honest, when I put time into a demo, be it the Star Wars Titles, or the Mahler 2nd one, these folks who pop up in the VSL threads really don't have shit to say lol...

Perfect example of GOOD FAITH criticism is Ed. Via the forum, he's in contact directly with support, and I'm sure those conversations about phasing in some velocity layers will be very productive. 

Anyway, maybe that clears up my personal devotion here haha. 😉🤙🏻 If it's fair, cool. If it's the usual suspects, it's like, nah bro. 😂


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## JTB (Dec 17, 2021)

Re-peat - 40
VSL rep and fanboy friend - Love


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## holywilly (Dec 17, 2021)

I’m expecting Synchron Woodwinds “Pro” sometimes in 2022.


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## DaddyO (Dec 17, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I’m expecting Synchron Woodwinds “Pro” sometimes in 2022.


I hope that's a joke. 

'Twould be a poke in the eye of anyone who parted with significant money to buy the just-released library, unless the discount to add it was substantial.


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## holywilly (Dec 17, 2021)

DaddyO said:


> I hope that's a joke.
> 
> 'Twould be a poke in the eye of anyone who parted with significant money to buy the just-released library, unless the discount to add it was substantial.


I bought Synchron Woodwinds right on release, was having high hope to replace my VI woodwinds to finally complete the Synchron Orchestra. However Synchron Woodwinds does not work as expected, all the issues have been discussed, therefore I let go this library. 

However, I’m thinking to re-purchase it back. VSL always listen to customers, and I have faith that VSL will keep on fixing and improving libraries. I don’t mind paying extra for improvement, Synchron Strings Pro as a good example.


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## daviddln (Dec 17, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I’m expecting Synchron Woodwinds “Pro” sometimes in 2022.


It is already a pro library.


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## synergy543 (Dec 17, 2021)

@re-peat - If you lower the release level to 23~46 or so (adjust to taste for legato), you can reduce or minimize the chorusing problem. The default is set at 64. Alternately, if you raise it up, you'll hear the issue in more severity. So it's simply a matter of adjusting this setting properly for the phrase you wish to play. With proper adjustment, I consider it a non-issue.

@Ben - The problem is that not everyone is good at programming details such as this, so it wouldn't be a bad idea for VSL to change the defaults to avoid this issue for the users who just want to play "out-of-the-box".

@re-peat - also try adjusting the Control CC envelope curves and you can get much more expression than I'm hearing from your lines. It will sound much more musical. I'm sure you already know this and are just not doing it. I get that you're trying to make a point (and I do appreciate that) it just should be pointed out for others that there are many variables at play here and it's not too hard to make adjustments to correct the issues you've been showing.


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## Nuno (Dec 17, 2021)

It would be great if someone (VSL ?) could make an in-depth video tutorial on how to get the best results out of Synchron Woodwinds in different situations.


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## pinki (Dec 18, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Rich, totally understand what you are saying here.
> 
> The issue is that there is often a concerted effort during a new VSL release, by some, to jump into forum warrioring over dubious problems in bad faith. The moderators here actually had to put out an unofficial "rule" that if you were going to use the opportunity to yammer on for the 1,000th time, about the eLicenser, you needed to do it in a dedicated thread (which is now basically dead).
> 
> ...


Right.…Post of the year.…Bro.


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## Jdiggity1 (Dec 18, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> @Mike Greene
> 
> Sorry for tagging you, Mike. But here we have Ben - one of the nicest and most friendly, always super helpful developer reps - who‘s saying he’s considering whether he wants to stay here on VI Control. Why? Because he’s been on the receiving end of verbal abuse in this thread.
> 
> This shouldn’t be neglected or passed in silence, should it?


I haven't seen "verbal abuse" in this thread. Are you able to point me (or other mods) to it?

Ben receives a whole range of pings and pointy questions from all sorts of members, seemingly several times a month (and graciously responds to them all). 
I don't think it would be fair to point at any specific individual for breaking Ben's back.


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## muk (Dec 18, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> What remains is about 7 or 8 people, some of whom are totally unauthoratative anons, who do 40% of their total posting to complain about VSL releases.





Stephen Limbaugh said:


> "You're just a VSL fanboy" -- I am sure this criticism is in some folk's heads, but is also a bit incomplete.



You do realize that this is exactly what you are doing here, just the other way around? 40% of your postings here are about how great VSL libraries are, how far ahead of the competition, and how posters who don't acknowledge that universal truth are totally incompetent.



Stephen Limbaugh said:


> If it's fair, cool. If it's the usual suspects, it's like, nah bro.


Exactly how I feel when you post about VSL.



Stephen Limbaugh said:


> The issue is that there is often a concerted effort during a new VSL release, by some, to jump into forum warrioring over dubious problems in bad faith.


Again, to me that is what you are doing, just for VSL instead of against.

Be that as it may, for me, the valuable information in this thread are the audio examples that have been posted. Piet and Ed shared audio examples that show real and audible problems. A good way to react to that would be posting an audio example that does the same thing but does not have the problems shown, and showing how that can be achieved. Or saying:

a) yes there is a problem here. The library was not designed to do that. We will look to improve this in an update, can you please share your midi so we can look into it?

b) Yes there is a problem in these examples. The library was not designed to do that, and it is a limitation the library has.

Not really helpful reactions, in my opinion, are: saying 'but the examples posted are not from classical repertoire or film music', and 'the people posting audio examples are just VSL haters and half of their posts paint VSL in a bad light'.

Anyway, for me the posted audio examples speak loud and clearly. While the official demos help evaluating what the library is good at, these examples show what it currently is not very good at. Valuable info both.


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## re-peat (Dec 18, 2021)

*Henrik*, _verbal abuse_? Where? Give me one example, please, just one.

*Synergy543*, prove it. Musiksculp asked the question a few pages ago if other users can reproduce my findings. The far more interesting question, it seems to me, is whether anyone can counter these examples with good-sounding ones, thus proving I’m wrong. If I'm such a cheat and if what you’re saying is correct, then that shouldn’t be too difficult, I would think. No? So, show us with an audio example how it’s supposed to be done. Post an example of, say, the English horn or the bass clarinet, playing a few legato phrases across its range, visiting all dynamic layers, phrases that flow smoothly, shift naturally from one dynamic timbre to the next and that don’t exhibit the chorus-y doubling effect. Piece of cake, surely, if, as you say, it is “simply a matter of adjusting the settings properly”. Well, prove it.
You *do* have the library, I take it? (Otherwise I don’t really know what you’re doing here in the first place, other than stir bad feelings and trying to polarize and derail a perfectly calm and civilized discussion with unfounded accusations and malicious insinuations.)

Something else, do you people honestly think that I — or any other sane person, for that matter — would be willing to spend 350€ on a sample library (the price of the standard version minus the voucher reduction), only to be able to then complain about it on a forum and unleash the self-righteous fury and indignation of the VSL minions over me? As if I have nothing better to do. I mean, even if I were as rich as Bruce Springsteen’s just become, and had all the time in the world, that would still strike me as a preposterously stupid and totally indefensible way to part with good money.

Isn’t it far more logical and sensible to assume that I bought the library, as I buy many, found some aspects of it wanting and chose to inform the developer about it, in the hope that the imperfections could be corrected in due time? Musicians helping musicians, you know: better libraries >> happier users.

I also don’t get why you’re all going on about Ben being treated disrespectfully here. In fact, if there is one person here who can justifiably say he’s been treated rather poorly, it would be me. Trying to inform Ben of what I consider a regrettable weakness in the library, I go out of my way to illustrate that misgiving with several audio examples, I go to quite some length explaining the problem to Ben, remaining perfectly calm throughout the entire conversation, and what do I get I return? Accusations of incompetence and ignorance, of “verbal abuse" and of talking in a “bellingerent, extremely passive-aggressive, insidious and veiled hostile manner” (all without the accusers being able to provide a single illustration of that, of course), insinuations that I deliberately painted a negative picture of the library and, to top it all, the sad and bad joke that stalks this forum under the name of Stephen Limbaugh.

And you people really think I was actually eager to pay 350€ for just that?

_


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

Just to be clear , I am very happy with my purchase. I would buy it again, and I do recommend it to others. My issues have to do with a specific problem and TBH I am somewhat surprised it's there !

Eons ago my buddies and I went to NAMM (2003?) and watched David Newman get a demo of the "VSL performance legato" for gigastudio. Later we bought it for the studio. The thing it did that I'd never heard done well before was the transitions between notes !

So i'm just a little stunned that it's an issue with this Library as to me THAT was something VSL nailed long ago . All the VSL stuff I own deals with this issue very well. Yes some better that others but THIS is the first time i've gone..."eh ?" when I play transitions. 

I am however confident it will get fixed, and no I disagree with some that it's a user programming issue. The big thing about VSL has always been playability , straight out of the box. Hence watching David Newman with a huge grin playing a VSL flute for the first time !

best

ed


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## Jackdnp121 (Dec 18, 2021)

🥲 damnnnn …. casually swinging by seeing all these comments …. I think we should just chill for now and have a great weekend … maybe some beer too … peace out …


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## synergy543 (Dec 18, 2021)

re-peat said:


> *Synergy543*, prove it.


Played straight out of the box with release set to 37.


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## Erisno (Dec 18, 2021)

Hi @re-peat

I have looked at the English horn legato line you posted ( English horn 1). And here is a solution that was mentioned multiple times (English horn 2). Although, I think you are using a different mixer preset than I did (classic Sur to stereo).
Anyway, If you are encountering the chorus effect, it's because you are hitting exactly the spot where the fade occurs. (And seven microphones will make this more audible). So instead of moving the Vel.XF set it to the desired dynamic layer you would like to achieve. And program the same curves you would use for Velocity crossfade with Timbre adjust instead. This is the recommended way of programming Synchron Brass and Woodwinds.

I'm also attaching a screenshot of the CC lanes, so you have proof that it didn't require much tweaking.
Hope I helped you. Cheers!


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

Erisno said:


> Hi @re-peat
> 
> I have looked at the English horn legato line you posted ( English horn 1). And here is a solution that was mentioned multiple times (English horn 2). Although, I think you are using a different mixer preset than I did (classic Sur to stereo).
> Anyway, If you are encountering the chorus effect, it's because you are hitting exactly the spot where the fade occurs. (And seven microphones will make this more audible). So instead of moving the Vel.XF set it to the desired dynamic layer you would like to achieve. And program the same curves you would use for Velocity crossfade with Timbre adjust instead. This is the recommended way of programming Synchron Brass and Woodwinds.
> ...


Hi

thanks for this. Just to understand this properly. What is the patch name you are using and is the ONLY difference between the two performances the CC data added in the screenshot ?

Best

ed


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## re-peat (Dec 18, 2021)

At last, we're getting somewhere.
Thanks very much, Synergy543 and Erisno! Good examples and useful information.

_


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## Erisno (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Hi
> 
> thanks for this. Just to understand this properly. What is the patch name you are using and is the ONLY difference between the two performances the CC data added in the screenshot ?
> 
> ...


The patch is Regular Legato con vibrato. I think the difference is also in the mixer preset used, as re-peat's example sounds louder and closer (I don't know his mixer settings and automation he used, but the screenshot shows automation I used for the second example).


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

Erisno said:


> The patch is Regular Legato con vibrato. I think the difference is also in the mixer preset used, as re-peat's example sounds louder and closer (I don't know his mixer settings and automation he used, but the screenshot shows automation I used for the second example).


Ok

This is what I tried. To my ears CC30 sounds very different to CC1. Am i doing something wrong ?


This is Modwheel

View attachment English Horn CC1 Data.mp3






This is CC30

View attachment English Horn CC30 Data.mp3







The dynamic range is much less with CC30 ?

sorry if i'm being dense


best

ed


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## Erisno (Dec 18, 2021)

Hi @ed buller

CC30 is a controller for dynamic range. (If you lower it, low-velocity layers will become louder, so it's recommended to leave it at the default value 127) Timbre Adjust is CC 8 (but make sure you enable it by clicking on the standby symbol - red means it's disabled, blue it's on).

Best,
Erik


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

Erisno said:


> Hi @ed buller
> 
> CC30 is a controller for dynamic range. (If you lower it, low-velocity layers will become louder, so it's recommended to leave it at the default value 127) Timbre Adjust is CC 8 (but make sure you enable it by clicking on the standby symbol - red means it's disabled, blue it's on).
> 
> ...


Ahh

me being stupid. Ok Yes that is loads better...but I guess no i'm thinking When do you use CC1 ?
View attachment English Horn CC8 Data.mp3


best

e


----------



## Ben (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Ok
> 
> This is what I tried. To my ears CC30 sounds very different to CC1. Am i doing something wrong ?
> 
> ...


Except for two notes at the end it has no advantage to use velocity crossfade, because the notes are so short, that the natural attack of the instrument has enough note-dynamic.
You could improve that further by trying to
a) disable VelXF for this part and use Note-Velocity instead. (VelXF on/off -> CC 28)
b) switch to one of the softer short articulations


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

Erisno said:


> The patch is Regular Legato con vibrato. I think the difference is also in the mixer preset used, as re-peat's example sounds louder and closer (I don't know his mixer settings and automation he used, but the screenshot shows automation I used for the second example).


Ok

this is a HUGE difference . I'm very grateful;
View attachment Ignor Strav 2.mp3


Live , easy to do ...and sounds sooooooooooo much better. I need to re-think how I am using the mod wheel.

many many thanks

ed


----------



## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

View attachment Ignor Strav 2 Auto speed_fast.mp3


even better using auto speed and fast.


buy this library !

e


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## Erisno (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Ok
> 
> this is a HUGE difference . I'm very grateful;
> View attachment Ignor Strav 2.mp3
> ...


Yes, that's the magic of Timbre Adjust! You can, of course, use it with other VSL libraries, but I personally only used them with Brass (Synchron or Synchron-zed) and Synchron Woodwinds.


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## Petrucci (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> Ok
> 
> this is a HUGE difference . I'm very grateful;
> View attachment Ignor Strav 2.mp3
> ...


What is the change in this example technically? I still didn't have time to play and use SW thoroughly so read everything to be prepared))

Oh, I see, it's probably Timbre Adjust instead of Velocity Crossfade for dynamic?


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> What is the change in this example technically? I still didn't have time to play and use SW thoroughly so read everything to be prepared))


using "timbre Adjust" instead of "Vel XF" to control the dynamic. Huge difference . So park CC1 at full then boogie with CC8

best

e


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## holywilly (Dec 18, 2021)

Timbre Adjust is the black magic!


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## Petrucci (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> using "timbre Adjust" instead of "Vel XF" to control the dynamic. Huge difference . So park CC1 at full then boogie with CC8
> 
> best
> 
> e


Thanks! Honestly I've never used Timbre Adjust, even with Synchron Brass Vel XF was enough for me, I gotta try it for sure now..!))


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## holywilly (Dec 18, 2021)

Petrucci said:


> Thanks! Honestly I've never used Timbre Adjust, even with Synchron Brass Vel XF was enough for me, I gotta try it for sure now..!))


I found that there’s a big sonic gap when using Vel XF on con fortissimo for brass, the transitions for the velocity layers aren’t smooth as butter.


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## Petrucci (Dec 18, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I found that there’s a big sonic gap when using Vel XF on con fortissimo for brass, the transitions for the velocity layers aren’t smooth as butter.


I guess I never noticed this because I always write quite soft stuff..!)


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I found that there’s a big sonic gap when using Vel XF on con fortissimo for brass, the transitions for the velocity layers aren’t smooth as butter.


yes but I can't get the horns as soft as CC1 with Timbre adjust ?

e


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## holywilly (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> yes but I can't get the horns as soft as CC1 with Timbre adjust ?
> 
> e


Maybe use espressivo, soft and gentle. 

By the way, thanks for the woodwinds examples, I’ve decided to re-purchase the Synchron Woodwinds. I was rely on CC1 and forgot the Timbre Adjust as the true black magic.


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## Ben (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> yes but I can't get the horns as soft as CC1 with Timbre adjust ?
> 
> e


You can also combine VelXF and Timbre Adjust - select a lower velocity layer, and Timbre Adjust will make it sound even softer.


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Maybe use espressivo, soft and gentle.
> 
> By the way, thanks for the woodwinds examples, I’ve decided to re-purchase the Synchron Woodwinds. I was rely on CC1 and forgot the Timbre Adjust as the true black magic.


you're welcome . Thank @Erisno for showing me how to use it properly !...it's a great Library

best

e


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## Erisno (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> yes but I can't get the horns as soft as CC1 with Timbre adjust ?


That's true. Generally, it's easier to leave the Vel.XF at 127, but when you reach a moment where the Timbre adjust is not making it as soft as you would like to (usually the end notes), slightly decrease the Vel.XF (or you can additionally use the Filter slider CC24)


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## JTB (Dec 18, 2021)

Oh! Okay! so CC1 makes this library sound crap. Gotcha!
Just use a filter instead and it sound awesome. Right!


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## Erisno (Dec 18, 2021)

JTB said:


> Oh! Okay! so CC1 makes this library sound crap. Gotcha!
> Just use a filter instead and it sound awesome. Right!


Nope, you can use the CC1 like with any other library, but you should also use the Timbre Adjust, to make the transition sound even better. Listen to the example below, which only uses modulation. I don't think it sounds crap.


ed buller said:


> Ok
> 
> This is what I tried. To my ears CC30 sounds very different to CC1. Am i doing something wrong ?
> 
> ...


----------



## JTB (Dec 18, 2021)

Erisno said:


> Nope, you can use the CC1 like with any other library, but you should also use the Timbre Adjust, to make the transition sound even better. Listen to the example below, which only uses modulation. I don't think it sounds crap.


I do.


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## Tralen (Dec 18, 2021)

This thread would have played much better, if people had, instead of being defensive, just provided some examples to alleviate the concerns of re-peat, ed buller and others.

Big thanks to @Erisno for taking the time to do that.

"Musicians helping musicians", as they say.


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

Tralen said:


> This thread would have played much better, if people had, instead of being defensive, just provided some examples to alleviate the concerns of re-peat, ed buller and others.
> 
> Big thanks to @Erisno for taking the time to do that.
> 
> "Musicians helping musicians", as they say.


Yup...THIS is why I love this forum. People like @Erisno 

best

e


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## JTB (Dec 18, 2021)

Is this the Twilight Zone or what?.
Are you saying that audio example should "alleviate peoples concerns"?.
If people want a single English horn crossfading into an ensemble, yeah sure. 
I'm outta here. This place just got way too weird.


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## holywilly (Dec 18, 2021)

Maybe combine Vel XF, Timbre Adjust and filter to single CC, then carefully adjust each controller’s curve behavior will get desired result? It’s worth a try I guess.


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 18, 2021)

Just had to get this.

Immediate quick thoughts after only having played with oboe 1 is that the tone is really nice (with a ton of EQ)! But there are a LOT of blowing/wind artifacts that are hard to avoid hearing. Maybe in the surround mics (which I didnt get) it will be easier to get rid of them but that will sacrifice any intimateness as well.

Trying my best to EQ my way out of it, and using only Room-Mix but still not quite getting rid of it. Will be interesting to see how Oboe 2 sounds, if that will be less problematic in this regard.

Also I notice that the first note you play has much more wind on the attack than the next one, if it played close to the first. Almost as if there is a "fake" attack noise played on top when you play the first note? Some way to control this would be great.


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## ptram (Dec 18, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> Some way to control this would be great


Just increasing the Attack value a bit (say, around 10) should smooth the attack.

Paolo


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 18, 2021)

ptram said:


> Just increasing the Attack value a bit (say, around 10) should smooth the attack.
> 
> Paolo


Of course, but that makes the attack sound unnatural and vague.

Here's an example of the noise. Attack at around 0, it became way too "spongey" with attack turned up higher. This is with room-mix only + a little of the mid mic.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugmlxz6b915eig4/VSL-Oboe-noises.mp3?dl=0
I wish there was a way to set a sample start offset, then you could maybe get rid of some of it and still keep the "good part" of the attacks intact.

I am sure that for lively, higher tempo pieces, this won't pose as much of a problem as with slow lyrical stuff.


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## ptram (Dec 18, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> I wish there was a way to set a sample start offset


You can find it in the Edit page (among the Options). It seems to be fine enough not to cut too much of the attack.

Paolo


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2021)




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## Simon Ravn (Dec 18, 2021)

ptram said:


> You can find it in the Edit page (among the Options). It seems to be fine enough not to cut too much of the attack.
> 
> Paolo


Oh great!


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## ptram (Dec 18, 2021)

@Ben , speaking of the Sample Start Offset: may I file a request for having it assignable to a CC or to the Velocity? In my view, sometimes it would make even more sense than the Attack control.

Paolo


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## Ben (Dec 18, 2021)

ptram said:


> @Ben , speaking of the Sample Start Offset: may I file a request for having it assignable to a CC or to the Velocity? In my view, sometimes it would make even more sense than the Attack control.
> 
> Paolo


This is not possible at the moment, as the sample cahce has to be reloaded for the articulation, each time you change the offset (as far as I know).


----------



## smellypants (Dec 18, 2021)

@Ben With all this talk about Timbre Adjust and Velocity XF... Is VSL's recommended use of all their Synchron libraries as @Erisno suggests.

Which is to my understanding, find the dynamic layer that is optimal for the part you want to play, then use Timbre Adjust in the way you would use the mod wheel to change the dynamic the instrument plays.

Of course only for articulations that one would usually do this... Longs not shorts for example.

So even for marimba rolls and longs from all the other libraries?

Cheers


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## prodigalson (Dec 18, 2021)

This reminds me a bit of the aftermath of the Cinematic Studio Woodwinds release where, when confronted with a surprising amount of dynamic layer-related phasing, the recommended approach is to minimize use of dynamic cross fades and rely more on expression for dynamics. That approach is more straight forward with CSW though because the long-form legato means there’s more dynamic expression baked into the sustain so you can get away with less CC moves. A comparable approach with SYNCHRON woodwinds might be to use the legato espressivo articulation combined with timbre adjust and (volume) expression alone. 

Makes one wonder the value of having a legato con vibrato articulation with multiple dynamic layers at all if the recommendation is to avoid using dynamic cross fades


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## Saxer (Dec 18, 2021)

smellypants said:


> @Ben With all this talk about Timbre Adjust and Velocity XF... Is VSL's recommended use of all their Synchron libraries as @Erisno suggests.
> 
> Which is to my understanding, find the dynamic layer that is optimal for the part you want to play, then use Timbre Adjust in the way you would use the mod wheel to change the dynamic the instrument plays.
> 
> ...


Avoiding overlaps in velocity crossfades is only needed for solo instruments. Ensembles sound like multiple instruments anyway. And even in most mixed sections built by solo instruments the crossfades will not be audible in most cases. So it's mainly a workaround for exposed solo parts.

And it's not a VSL specific problem, it concerns all non phase aligned libraries.


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## smellypants (Dec 18, 2021)

Saxer said:


> Avoiding overlaps in velocity crossfades is only needed for solo instruments. Ensembles sound like multiple instruments anyway. And even in most mixed sections built by solo instruments the crossfades will not be audible in most cases. So it's mainly a workaround for exposed solo parts.
> 
> And it's not a VSL specific problem, it concerns all non phase aligned libraries.


Thanks mate ☺️


----------



## Tralen (Dec 18, 2021)

smellypants said:


> @Ben With all this talk about Timbre Adjust and Velocity XF... Is VSL's recommended use of all their Synchron libraries as @Erisno suggests.
> 
> Which is to my understanding, find the dynamic layer that is optimal for the part you want to play, then use Timbre Adjust in the way you would use the mod wheel to change the dynamic the instrument plays.
> 
> ...


There was also the Release control example by synergy543 a couple of pages back.


----------



## synergy543 (Dec 18, 2021)

Ben said:


> You can also combine VelXF and Timbre Adjust - select a lower velocity layer, and Timbre Adjust will make it sound even softer.


Using the control curves, you can get these to respond to the same MIDI CC in different amounts which can help tremendously if you want to play a part in live.

I think Erisno's method (which I was partially using) has more effect that the release value. I was using something similar to Erisno's method by having the Xfade velocity curve, expression, and timbre adjust all controlled by the CC curves. In the case of the EngHn below, I turned the xfade control off and release is left at 64 (so pretty much the same as Erisno's suggestion).

@Ben - It would be helpful if we could adjust the start and end points of the curves so they don't have to extend across the entire range. It would allow for more refined response when using a single CC to control multiple paramters.

Also, adding numbers to the curve response would be very helpful as it would let you reproduce the same response curve in different patches. As it is now, we can only eye-ball an approximation.


----------



## re-peat (Dec 18, 2021)

Still not entirely convinced by this Timbre Adjust solution. That parameter is a great aid for many things, absolutely, and it does get rid of much of the doubling BUT always at the (to me, very high) cost of clarity, openness and presence. You — or to be correct: me — end up with what, to my ears, is _filtered sound_. It’s like I said some pages ago: used excessively (and you have to use it excessively, it seems to me, to get rid of the chorus-y doubling effect), it muffles and dulls the timbre too much. For my liking, anyway.

(Synergy543's English horn in the previous post also sounds VERY muffled and filtered to me.)

Did this quick *little excercise for solo clarinet and strings* just now and the clarinet doesn’t sound right to me in this _at all_. Compared to the strings — which have wonderful clarity, openness and texture, I find — the clarinet sounds dull and, well, filtered. Sounds like a clarinet in a scuba diving suit to me. And despite the use of the Timbre Adjust parameter, I keep hearing moments where it just doesn’t like a SOLO instrument either. So I don’t know.

I’m sure this can be improved upon with a lot more work — did this in 40 minutes, and I *am* an inexperienced Synchron Woodwinds user after all — but I very much doubt I can ever get this clarinet to sound so that (1) I really like it and (2) it sits well with strings like these (which are, sonically, kind of a good reference for a type of sound I like).

All very individual experience and opinions of course.

_


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## ptram (Dec 18, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Did this quick *little excercise for solo clarinet and strings*


Quick, but very nice!

Paolo


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Did this quick *little excercise for solo clarinet and strings* just now and the clarinet doesn’t sound


I can hear what you mean. Especially around the really fast bits at ;55 but it isn't THAT ergious to my ears. What legato speed setting are you using ?

lovely music BTW

e


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## re-peat (Dec 18, 2021)

ed buller said:


> What legato speed setting are you using ?


Fast, I think it was. (Already closed the document, cause I'm supposed to be doing something else.)

And thanks, Ed & Paolo!

_


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## ed buller (Dec 18, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Fast, I think it was. (Already closed the document, cause I'm supposed to be doing something else.)
> 
> And thanks, Ed & Paolo!
> 
> _









try pulling down into negative values the "Performance Release" . That helps

best
ed


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## FireGS (Dec 18, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Fast, I think it was. (Already closed the document, cause I'm supposed to be doing something else.)
> 
> And thanks, Ed & Paolo!
> 
> _



Piet, 

Would you be willing to post a MIDI of just the clarinet part from that? I'd like to take a crack at it.

Sam


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## re-peat (Dec 19, 2021)

*Here* you go, Sam.

Please keep in mind that this was all played and controlled live in one pass, with only some controller data editing afterwards, so I guess it'll be pretty rough material to start working with.
Big thanks in advance!

_


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## muk (Dec 19, 2021)

Great piece Piet. Out of curiosity, what library are the strings? Spitfire Iconic?


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## re-peat (Dec 19, 2021)

Thanks, Muk! 
And: yes.

_


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## Erisno (Dec 19, 2021)

re-peat said:


> *Here* you go, Sam.
> 
> Please keep in mind that was played and controlled live in one pass, with only some controller data editing afterwards, so I guess it'll be pretty rough material to start working with.
> Big thanks in advance!
> ...


Hi, re-peat,
Nice track! 

I opened the midi, and it seems that you are not using the Timbre Adjust at all. (there is no automation in the cc8). Also, make sure that the midi notes overlap. Otherwise, the legato won't be triggered, and it will sound off. At parts where you want a very quick dynamic change, it is better to use the Timbre adjust and leave the modulation steady.


----------



## re-peat (Dec 19, 2021)

Hi Erisno,

There is plenty of CC#08 controller activity. You should see two lanes of controller data: one for CC#01 and one for CC#08. (That's all the controlling I could manage live.)

That the legato isn't always triggered and often rather bumpy-sounding isn't a concern at all. I know how to solve all that quite easily. It's the sound that bothers me: that muffled, swollen, poorly defined and smeary clarinetöid thing that sits on top of the strings. That's my main and only problem.

Big thanks again for your kind and helpful advice. Much appreciated.

- - -

*EDIT:* Just checked the midi-file and you're right: the CC#08 data doesn't seem to be there. Mmm ... The CC#08 data was originally recorded as track automation in Logic, whereas the CC#01 data is region automation. I did convert the track automation to region automation before exporting the recording as a midi-file but for some reason the CC#08 data didn't make it into the midi-file, it seems.
I'll have another go at it.

_


----------



## re-peat (Dec 19, 2021)

Found out what the problem was: the converted CC#08 automation wasn't 'registered' as midi-data but as 'Fader'-data and hence wasn't included in the midi-export. Some weird Logic thing.
So now I transformed those Fader-data to genuine midi-data and exported the recording again. Checked it and it's all there. The download link is the same as above. (Maybe clear the cache of your browser first.)

Here's a screen grab of the Timbre Adjust automation lane (the purple stuff at the bottom), before conversion. (The dimmed orange-y lines are the CC#01 data.)








__


----------



## FabioA (Dec 19, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Found out what the problem was: the converted CC#08 automation wasn't 'registered' as midi-data but as 'Fader'-data and hence wasn't included in the midi-export. Some weird Logic thing.
> So now I transformed those Fader-data to genuine midi-data and exported the recording again. Checked it and it's all there. The download link is the same as above. (Maybe clear the cache of your browser first.)
> 
> Here's a screen grab of the Timbre Adjust automation lane (the purple stuff at the bottom), before conversion. (The dimmed orange-y lines are the CC#01 data.)
> ...


I find that clarinet to fit REALLY well that piece. To improve that further I would raise the Humanize Tuning to 35-40 for those moments such us 0:51 and especially 1:08.
For that moment at 0:51, I think you may gain a good deal of realism adding a couple of breaks (potentially using the marc. start as well). Not only because I think the player would need it to play those notes on that register, but also because I have the feeling to bring in some "attack" note of the instrument would add to the perceived realism.


----------



## gst98 (Dec 19, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Found out what the problem was: the converted CC#08 automation wasn't 'registered' as midi-data but as 'Fader'-data and hence wasn't included in the midi-export. Some weird Logic thing.
> So now I transformed those Fader-data to genuine midi-data and exported the recording again. Checked it and it's all there. The download link is the same as above. (Maybe clear the cache of your browser first.)
> 
> Here's a screen grab of the Timbre Adjust automation lane (the purple stuff at the bottom), before conversion. (The dimmed orange-y lines are the CC#01 data.)
> ...


Piet, slightly off-topic, but can I ask how did you get CC08 renamed to Timbre adjust? thanks


----------



## re-peat (Dec 19, 2021)

gst98 said:


> can I ask how did you get CC08 renamed to Timbre adjust?



I had nothing to do with that, *gst98*. I recorded the CC#08 data by moving the according fader on the Synchron interface with Logic’s automation-toggle button (on the channel strip, above the panner) set to “Touch”. Which gave me a recording of Timbre Adjust track automation. (The CC#01 data were generated, but I don’t need to tell you this of course, by handling the Modwheel and they ended up as region automation, which is plain midi-data from the outset.)

I would have left it at that, if I then didn’t have to export the track as a midi-file, and learned, thanks to Erisno, that the track automation (CC#08) wasn’t included in the midi export.

So the next step was to convert the _track_ automation to _region_ automation (there’s a command for that in Logic), but that wasn’t the end of it either, because the track automation data became “Fader” data (with the name "Timbre Adjust" given to it automatically) — that’s what you can see in the screenshot posted above — and “Fader” data still won’t export as midi-data, as I learned today. (I didn’t even know about Fader-data at all before today, I must confess.).

So then I thought of hopping over to the Midi Transform window and configured it so that all the “Fader” data could be transformed, all at once, into controller data. Luckily that worked, otherwise I wouldn’t have known what to do.
Midi Transform turned all those “Fader” entries you can see in the Event List into regular CC#08 entries. Which Logic then immediately gave the name “Balance” rather then “Timbre Adjust” because, apparently, “Balance” is Logic's default designation for CC#08 data.)


*FabioA*,

Thanks very much for those good suggestions. If I were to actually start to work seriously on this, I would most definitely not be satisfied with just a single Legato patch for the entire clarinet part and would certainly take everything you said into consideration. Like you say, it would benefit significantly from additional articulations, at many moments, to increase expressiveness and realism.

But since this was just a super-quick, super-rough little exercise — mostly to see how Timbre Adjust might solve some of the problems I have with these instruments — I didn’t bother with any finessing at all.

The strings are nowhere near finished either. They’re just chords played with an ensemble patch and given a faint first suggestion of life with the Modwheel. 

Like I said, the whole thing took about 40 minutes, from blank document to the mp3 I posted. Turning this into an actual finished piece, in which every aspect of the performance and the mix is given due attention, might well take another day or two. 

Thanks again!

_


----------



## gst98 (Dec 19, 2021)

re-peat said:


> I had nothing to do with that, *gst98*. I recorded the CC#08 data by moving the according fader on the Synchron interface with Logic’s automation-toggle button (on the channel strip, above the panner) set to “Touch”. Which gave me a recording of Timbre Adjust track automation. (The CC#01 data were generated, but I don’t need to tell you this of course, by handling the Modwheel and they ended up as region automation, which is plain midi-data from the outset.)
> 
> I would have left it at that, if I then didn’t have to export the track as a midi-file, and learned, thanks to Erisno, that the track automation (CC#08) wasn’t included in the midi export.
> 
> ...


Ahh, I see, thanks for the detailed explanation. Renaming CCs is a feature I've wanted in Logic for some time now!


----------



## richhickey (Dec 19, 2021)

This whole timbre adjust suggestion is just so much snake oil. It is only a stopgap for when there are insufficient dynamic layers and dramatic timbral change through the dynamics, such as with brass. So they added it for the brass and now it's the answer for everything? Just monkey around with 3! (dynamics, expression, filter) controllers to try to get a decent performance? Oh yeah, and avoid the XF overlap points, wherever they are.

At least VSL used to document (in the VI series), _per articulation_: the number of RRs, the number of dynamic layers, and critically the dynamic XF transition points. No more. Now they just admonish you in forums for not knowing where they are.

Perhaps it's time to admit that dynamic XF doesn't work well for solo instruments, especially wet ones? VSL is new to the wet game but OT has already admitted as much with their WW soloist expansions recorded in a dry booth, _and_ with a single layer.

It's not as if different techniques don't exist. Beside single-layer, phase alignment is often mentioned, but has tone issues.

But if you seriously think the right idea is to hit a single non-XF-overlap point and move expression/level and/or filter around from there then why not just make the Synchron player do that when you continue to move the dynamics CC after a note has started?

In fact, that's exactly what Embertone's JB violin does, to much success IMO. This quite effectively handles 99% of the nearby emotive swell tasks. The only thing it can't do well is a full-range dynamic sweep. I think this is a superior technique, is easy to use (just a single dynamic CC) and yields good results. I think the Synchron Player should offer it.


----------



## Tralen (Dec 19, 2021)

richhickey said:


> This whole timbre adjust suggestion is just so much snake oil. It is only a stopgap for when there are insufficient dynamic layers and dramatic timbral change through the dynamics, such as with brass. So they added it for the brass and now it's the answer for everything? Just monkey around with 3! (dynamics, expression, filter) controllers to try to get a decent performance? Oh yeah, and avoid the XF overlap points, wherever they are.
> 
> At least VSL used to document (in the VI series), _per articulation_: the number of RRs, the number of dynamic layers, and critically the dynamic XF transition points. No more. Now they just admonish you in forums for not knowing where they are.
> 
> ...


I agree with you completely.

I was about to jump into Synchron Woodwinds (I'm desperate for a woodwind library) but so far, even with the suggestions given and audible improvements, I have not seen why should I be burdened to overcome the XF points with all this fiddling.

Being unfamiliar with Synchron in general, I get the impression that the crossfading has regressed in relation to the VI era, instead of improving. Since, as you said, with the VI instruments, at least the transition points were clear and easy to handle, I just got tired of doing it every time.


----------



## Zedcars (Dec 19, 2021)

Hi @Ben 

It doesn't seem that Oboe 1 or English Horn has any flutter-tongue technique included (it is possible), yet under the Articulation entry it is written as "Fluttert. + trills". Is this purely because it has been copied and pasted from another instrument when it was created?


----------



## Simon Ravn (Dec 19, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> Using the control curves, you can get these to respond to the same MIDI CC in different amounts which can help tremendously if you want to play a part in live.


Changing the curve doesn't seem to affect how it reacts to MIDI CC. I tried changing the curve for the CC I use for "timbre control", but it sounds the same no matter what I do. Am I missing something...?


----------



## Ben (Dec 19, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> Hi @Ben
> 
> It doesn't seem that Oboe 1 or English Horn has any flutter-tongue technique included (it is possible), yet under the Articulation entry it is written as "Fluttert. + trills". Is this purely because it has been copied and pasted from another instrument when it was created?


Either that, or for consistency. I have to ask the colleague who creates these presets.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> This thread would have played much better, if people had, instead of being defensive, just provided some examples to alleviate the concerns of re-peat, ed buller and others.


Eh… that’s not what happened. This was my first suggestion:



Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Dynamic movements in Synchron Woodwinds and Brass should utilize Timbre Adjust. Drastic mod wheel movements without it can introduce some phasey stuff.
> 
> To be honest, legato patch _f_-_fff_ dynamics should generally be set to a value of 127, and the differences between those dynamics are determined by other parameters: Expression, Filter (sometimes), and Timbre Adjust.


That was ignored, but is basically the exact advice given by @Erisno 5 pages later. 😉


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## ptram (Dec 19, 2021)

richhickey said:


> But if you seriously think the right idea is to hit a single non-XF-overlap point and move expression/level and/or filter around from there then why not just make the Synchron player do that when you continue to move the dynamics CC after a note has started?


Maybe I'm not understanding your hint correctly, but isn’t it as it works already?

- Make dynamics be controlled by Velocity.
- Control Timbre Adjust with a CC (either #8 or #1, if you prefer).

Paolo


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## richhickey (Dec 19, 2021)

ptram said:


> Maybe I'm not understanding your hint correctly, but isn’t it as it works already?
> 
> - Make dynamics be controlled by Velocity.
> - Control Timbre Adjust with a CC (either #8 or #1, if you prefer).
> ...


No it's not like that at all. Timbre adjust on its own is insufficient for expressive swells. If you set dynamic via velocity, then move up expression, you are left with the problems of a) making your next velocity match where you ended up and b) resetting expression to the base level for the next swell.

What the JB system does is use one dynamics CC, and when you start a note it uses the dynamic indicated by the CC. If while the note is playing you continue to move the dynamic CC (as you would ordinarily with dynamic XF) it keeps the original dynamic sample but adjusts its volume (without crossfading), within a certain range. When you strike the next note it is seamlessly at the right/matching volume for the _current_ position of the CC, but maybe at an adjacent dynamic sample. This is something that's impossible to do smoothly with 2 CCs (dynamics and expression) without roller coaster riding expression back to nominal with every note (that dreadful thing people do with samples that players tend to avoid). 

So a single dynamic CC selects dynamic layers and then adjusts their volumes (w/o crossfading). Such a system could also do some filter adjustment but that's not the primary concern. As I said it works perfectly well within the range of expressive swells, but not full range dynamic sweeps.

The point is if the "right" strategy per VSL is to use a non-crossfaded dynamic and then adjust its volume/filter, that's something the sample player/script can do seamlessly under control of a single CC, as demonstrated by JB violin.


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## synergy543 (Dec 19, 2021)

Simon Ravn said:


> Changing the curve doesn't seem to affect how it reacts to MIDI CC. I tried changing the curve for the CC I use for "timbre control", but it sounds the same no matter what I do. Am I missing something...?


If you go into the Control panel and change the response curve from linear to a log curve it should surely change the way that parameter responds to MIDI CC (different amounts of effect). I find this extremely helpful for tailoring the way the mod wheel feels. So much so, that I make my own patches for all VSL instruments. I typically will use a single MIDI CC to control several parameters at once and therefore I want each of them to respond to different degrees to achieve the desired sound as I move the modulation wheel.

This is really quite basic and you want to make sure you understand it. One thing to check in case you still think its not working is to make sure the parameter is actually turned on. In the case of the timbre control for example, make sure the button is blue, and then right-click to make the parameter learn the MIDI CC function you want to use to control it. Then go into the Control section and adjust the curve for the desired response. In the case of timbre, it may be less noticeable on certain instruments so I suggest you try on something quite obvious such as the Bass Clarinet. The above recipe is really all that I'm doing. If you're still having issues, you can PM me.


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## synergy543 (Dec 19, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Dynamic movements in Synchron Woodwinds and Brass should utilize Timbre Adjust. Drastic mod wheel movements without it can introduce some phasey stuff.
> 
> To be honest, legato patch _f_-_fff_ dynamics should generally be set to a value of 127, and the differences between those dynamics are determined by other parameters: Expression, Filter (sometimes), and Timbre Adjust.


I think one of the complaints about this (that Rich may be alluding to above) is that you don't end up with the full dynamic range (as you are pulling the volume and timbre down but still using the highest velocity). A reasonably effective solution I've found is to make soft and loud patches so you don't have to cross over velocities but you can choose which velocity layer to use depending upon your passage.

In an ideal world, we could ALSO switch between velocity layers and not pass through the undesirable chorus territory. However, until VSL can find a way to synchronize (pun not intended) the two velocity layers so they don't chorus, this may be the most reasonable and practical solution.


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## Tralen (Dec 19, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Eh… that’s not what happened. This was my first suggestion:
> 
> 
> That was ignored, but is basically the exact advice given by @Erisno 5 pages later. 😉


It is probable that I skipped your post, so apologies.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 19, 2021)

@Tralen easy to do once we are past page 14! haha 😂… ‘sall good 🤙🏻


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## Erisno (Dec 20, 2021)

richhickey said:


> No it's not like that at all. Timbre adjust on its own is insufficient for expressive swells. If you set dynamic via velocity, then move up expression, you are left with the problems of a) making your next velocity match where you ended up and b) resetting expression to the base level for the next swell.
> 
> What the JB system does is use one dynamics CC, and when you start a note it uses the dynamic indicated by the CC. If while the note is playing you continue to move the dynamic CC (as you would ordinarily with dynamic XF) it keeps the original dynamic sample but adjusts its volume (without crossfading), within a certain range. When you strike the next note it is seamlessly at the right/matching volume for the _current_ position of the CC, but maybe at an adjacent dynamic sample. This is something that's impossible to do smoothly with 2 CCs (dynamics and expression) without roller coaster riding expression back to nominal with every note (that dreadful thing people do with samples that players tend to avoid).
> 
> ...


If I understood you correctly, You can achieve this by using the Velocity preset (not VelXF sus), where basically all dynamic is controlled by the keystroke velocity. Then you can enable the Timbre adjust. So when you start a note, the velocity keeps the original dynamic sample, and you can adjust it further with the Timbre Adjust.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 20, 2021)

Timbre Adjust is great! I wish they would add it to ViPro too.


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## synergy543 (Dec 20, 2021)

Erisno said:


> If I understood you correctly, You can achieve this by using the VelXF preset (not VelXF sus), where basically all dynamic is controlled by the keystroke velocity. Then you can enable the Timbre adjust. So when you start a note, the velocity keeps the original dynamic sample, and you can adjust it further with the Timbre Adjust.


This is really the best of both worlds. Quite brilliant actually! 

Thanks for the tip Erisno! This works really well. Absolutely no chorusing with full dynamics.


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## synergy543 (Dec 20, 2021)

And here's the patch if anyone wants it. CC1 controls expression and timbre, key velocity controls the initial velocity dynamic. You can really achieve far more dynamic range than I demonstrated.


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## Knomes (Dec 20, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> This is really the best of both worlds. Quite brilliant actually!
> 
> Thanks for the tip Erisno! This works really well. Absolutely no chorusing with full dynamics.


But are you happy with the D4 (Not the lowest D of the oboe, the first higher) of this example?

Like I described in this thread (https://vi-control.net/community/th...-vibrato-sustain-problem.118850/#post-5003147), there is a group of notes with a very annoying (to me) artifact in the sustain vibrato part of the sound.


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 20, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> If you go into the Control panel and change the response curve from linear to a log curve it should surely change the way that parameter responds to MIDI CC (different amounts of effect). I find this extremely helpful for tailoring the way the mod wheel feels. So much so, that I make my own patches for all VSL instruments. I typically will use a single MIDI CC to control several parameters at once and therefore I want each of them to respond to different degrees to achieve the desired sound as I move the modulation wheel.
> 
> This is really quite basic and you want to make sure you understand it. One thing to check in case you still think its not working is to make sure the parameter is actually turned on. In the case of the timbre control for example, make sure the button is blue, and then right-click to make the parameter learn the MIDI CC function you want to use to control it. Then go into the Control section and adjust the curve for the desired response. In the case of timbre, it may be less noticeable on certain instruments so I suggest you try on something quite obvious such as the Bass Clarinet. The above recipe is really all that I'm doing. If you're still having issues, you can PM me.


Oh yes, I got it working thanks! I accidentally thought that I could just assign a Dim X controller to the CC I was using for "Timbre control" and it would use this curve/settings. But I found out adjusting and assigning to the specific "Timbre control" controller worked! Pretty cool feature since I think the full 100% timbre control is usually too much filtering.


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## synergy543 (Dec 20, 2021)

Knomes said:


> But are you happy with the D4 (Not the lowest D of the oboe, the first higher) of this example?
> 
> Like I described in this thread (https://vi-control.net/community/th...-vibrato-sustain-problem.118850/#post-5003147), there is a group of notes with a very annoying (to me) artifact in the sustain vibrato part of the sound.


I hope you're not talking about my little keyboard "blooper" at 16s (which hits that D4 by accident).

I don't find the D4 note to be problematic at all (maybe you can post a clear audible ex?). My monitor system is quite good and I really don't hear the problem you're referring to. Overall, I quite like the "character" of this instrument and any quirks it has, I could easily deal with (like my real-life partner who is not perfect). Besides, you really have to judge how it sounds "in context" and it would be rare to have a completely exposed line. It's really the sum of all the parts that counts which is why a JW score will sound amazing even when played with Garritan samples.

Still, there are ways to tame any overtones you might not like with plugins such as Soothe 2 - it's dynamic, rather than static, so it's great for pulling out little artifacts if you need to. For me though, it's the bigger picture of what everything sounds like together that I'd rather focus on.


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## Knomes (Dec 20, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> I hope you're not talking about my little keyboard "blooper" at 16s (which hits that D4 by accident).


No, I'm not talking about that. I refer to situations like at the end, where the note is sustained.


synergy543 said:


> maybe you can post a clear audible ex?


I did in the other thread I linked.


synergy543 said:


> would be rare to have a completely exposed line


I disagree. Especially the oboe is an instrument that gets a lot of exposed lines.
The first example that comes to my mind is the little solo oboe in the recapitulation of Beethoven's 5th Symphony, first movement.


synergy543 said:


> Still, there are ways to tame any overtones you might not like with plugins such as Soothe 2


Well, I can "easily" work around this problem by just using the "no vibrato" patch. But I would like the software I buy to work as intended, not spending my time solving this kind of problem. I think they should re-sample this sustain.



synergy543 said:


> My monitor system is quite good and I really don't hear the problem you're referring to


To this, I don't know what to say. I can hear it even from the smartphone speakers. As other non-musician people can when you point it out to them.


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## Knomes (Dec 20, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> I hope you're not talking about my little keyboard "blooper" at 16s (which hits that D4 by accident).


I just re-listened to this part here at 16s. I can hear the artifact clearly as it affects the group of notes C4, C#4, and D4 since, I think, they share the same (IMHO bad) sample.


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## synergy543 (Dec 20, 2021)

Knomes, if you have the VSL Analyzer, take a look at the overtones of the oboe notes as you're playing. Move up the scale and I think you'll find that they are very consistent from note to note. The oboe DOES have a lot of overtones but there aren't any that seem out of the ordinary to me.

If you really don't like the sound of this instrument, you could just use another one such as from OT or something (that is what I'd do if I didn't like it, but I do).

Also, I believe that there is still another oboe coming from VSL soon so maybe that one will have a sound that please you?

I'm bored I guess... but looking into this further, you could very easily isolate each individual over tone with a parametric EQ and remove the ones you don't like. The problem with this, is when you pull out the second overtone, you're left with the third (leaving the sound much harsher!), so you'll want to pull out the third as well, and then maybe the fourth. Its all doable, and you can remove each harmonic and get this sounding more like a flute than an oboe. Give it a try and see for yourself. I'm too bored to make a movie of this but you can easily replicate it and learn more yourself. I think you'll see that those overtones are actually part of the instrument itself and its character.

Visual representation of the "infamous" D4 note and its overtones:


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## richhickey (Dec 20, 2021)

Erisno said:


> If I understood you correctly, You can achieve this by using the Velocity preset (not VelXF sus), where basically all dynamic is controlled by the keystroke velocity. Then you can enable the Timbre adjust. So when you start a note, the velocity keeps the original dynamic sample, and you can adjust it further with the Timbre Adjust.


I disagree. These multi-input control solutions cannot handle multi-note phrasing well. 

First off, if you want to be able to pretend via timbre adjust to get louder (by getting brighter) then timbre adjust has to start off in a setting that is always LP filtering your samples. VSL has always had a filter in the VI player they just didn't call it "timbre adjust".

But I don't want to muffle all of my samples in order to save room to brighten them for (rising) expression. Presumably they were recorded with the natural amount of brightness. Timbre adjust (filter) is really best for _diminuendos_, where you start with a brighter dynamic and it sounds unnaturally bright if you merely reduce the volume.

But if you try to use t-a or expression to supplement velocity-based dynamics you run into problems with multi-note phrases. Let's say you are willing to muffle all of your samples and set t-a/expr to 80 as a nominal value. Then you play a note with velocity 64 to start a 3-note _phrase_ with rising expression. You raise t-a/expr during the course of the first note then play the next at vel 80. But now, if you don't reset t-a/expr they are initially higher on the vel 80 note and it sounds louder/brighter than intended, not matching the first. You proceed anyway, playing a note at vel 100 and continue raising t-a/expr only to run out of headroom, hitting 127 before the expressive rise is finished.

This is why many people trying this two fader technique raise and lower the expr on every note, creating the dreaded sample user rise-fall-per-note rollercoaster effect any good instrumental instructor tries to get their students to avoid, in an effort to get them to craft phrasing that crosses multiple notes.

I'm not saying you can't get good results doing this if you spend a lot of time, but if you look carefully at someone who does this well (e.g. Guy Bacos) you see how much effort/care goes into trading off expr for dyn and recovering expr headroom. It's not a system that's easy to automate if you use scripts or notation software in your workflow.

It is nowhere near as straightforward as using one dyn CC on its own when XF works well (ensembles, phase-aligned samples, single dyn), nor as easy as the JB violin script which _does the same thing with one dyn CC_ but can perfectly reset expr and match levels for the subsequent notes w/o rollercoastering. 

Synchron player could do the same thing as JB, and also incorporate the filter for when samples are played _below_ their recorded dyn.


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## wblaze (Dec 20, 2021)

Are there any direct comparisons on sound and playability of the solo Synchron Woodwinds (standard) vs the Synchron-ized Woodwinds? 

I already own the BBO woodwind packs and Synchron-ized Woodwinds, and am trying to prioritize adding these to my Synchron Strings Pro and Brass vs other needs.


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## ptram (Dec 20, 2021)

richhickey said:


> VSL has always had a filter in the VI player they just didn't call it "timbre adjust".


They didn't call it that way, because it had nothing in common with Timbre Adjust. The old Filter is still available in Synchron Player, but it is a totally different thing to Timbre Adjust.

Paolo


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## Knomes (Dec 20, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> Knomes, if you have the VSL Analyzer, take a look at the overtones of the oboe notes as you're playing. Move up the scale and I think you'll find that they are very consistent from note to note. The oboe DOES have a lot of overtones but there aren't any that seem out of the ordinary to me.


I tried using the analyzer but it seems to me that not much information can be gained by just looking at it. Even in a small amount of time, the spectrum of the same held note changes a lot.


synergy543 said:


> If you really don't like the sound of this instrument, you could just use another one such as from OT or something (that is what I'd do if I didn't like it, but I do).


I like the sound of the instrument, overall. I don't like the sound of this particular sustain vibrato sample.



synergy543 said:


> Also, I believe that there is still another oboe coming from VSL soon so maybe that one will have a sound that please you?


I think that oboe 2 will probably have not this specific problem again, just because of probability at least!


synergy543 said:


> I'm bored I guess... but looking into this further, you could very easily isolate each individual over tone with a parametric EQ and remove the ones you don't like. The problem with this, is when you pull out the second overtone, you're left with the third (leaving the sound much harsher!), so you'll want to pull out the third as well, and then maybe the fourth. Its all doable, and you can remove each harmonic and get this sounding more like a flute than an oboe. Give it a try and see for yourself. I'm too bored to make a movie of this but you can easily replicate it and learn more yourself. I think you'll see that those overtones are actually part of the instrument itself and its character.


First of all, thank you for the time spent on this! What you suggest is not something that I want to do because I should use a particular Eq setting to just selectively adjust a group of three notes while potentially ruining all the others. I don't want to change dramatically the sound of the entire instrument just because of a (IMHO) bad sample.


I attach a short file where I think what I'm saying can be heard quite clearly. Just four notes:
Eb4 Long notes - Regular - Senza vibrato
D4 Long notes - Regular - Senza vibrato
Eb4 Long notes - Regular - Con vibrato
D4 Long notes - Regular - Con vibrato

In the case "Senza vibrato", the two notes both sound good.
In the case "Con vibrato", the second note seems (to me) like it is doubled an octave higher.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 20, 2021)

Knomes said:


> I tried using the analyzer but it seems to me that not much information can be gained by just looking at it. Even in a small amount of time, the spectrum of the same held note changes a lot.
> 
> I like the sound of the instrument, overall. I don't like the sound of this particular sustain vibrato sample.
> 
> ...


The Eb4 con vib especially sounds like it's doubled with a flute 8va!


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## Knomes (Dec 20, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> The Eb4 con vib especially sounds like it's doubled with a flute 8va!


Oh, this is strange. To me, it's the D4 vibrato that sounds like it's doubled by a flute 8va


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## Zedcars (Dec 20, 2021)

I mean, a real oboe does have those silky upper harmonics that can sometimes sound like a flute floating quietly above it. I hear nothing terribly wrong with those samples. The Eb4 con vib does display this slightly more to my ears than the D4.


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## synergy543 (Dec 20, 2021)

Knomes said:


> First of all, thank you for the time spent on this! What you suggest is not something that I want to do because I should use a particular Eq setting to just selectively adjust a group of three notes while potentially ruining all the others. I don't want to change dramatically the sound of the entire instrument just because of a (IMHO) bad sample.


Clearly something is bothering you although when I listen here, I don't hear a problem. I think my setup would reveal any significant problem however sometimes its possible to focus on something that others don't hear until they too learn to focus on that particular aspect of the sound. Still, I'm about 99.99% sure I'm not missing anything here. I simply hear overtones, which are quite prominent and are what gives the oboe its character IMO.

Still, you want to solve your problem. Of course, ideally, you'd like VSL to resample those notes. However, this is something that you're hearing but VSL apparently isn't (and they have some good monitors!) and I'm not hearing it here either (and believe me, I've done my share of critical listening with VSL samples). Assuming it's not an acoustical problem or problem with your monitors, I think some mild EQ on these notes might be your best remedy. Using automatable EQ (such as in MOTU DP11) would be your best solution. The example I showed was fairly exaggerated but if you try it yourself, you can see how easy it is to actually toggle individual overtones on/off (as they are both visibly and audibly apparent). So if I were you, I'd set up an EQ focus on each of the overtones as I showed above, but then lessen the amount (dBs) of the EQ to your taste. Surely, you can find the problem and isolate it this way if it's actually in the sample.

btw, Soothe 2 did not work very well for this example (it works great on string resonances though) so I would stick with automatable parametric EQ. This was quite an interesting experiment for me, as I could turn off the individual overtones to make this oboe sound almost like a flute! And turn them each back on, it's like moving the drawbars of an organ. I found I could tailor the EQ to make a "lyte" version of the example above and it was quite pleasing. I may use this in the future and urge you to try and make something similar that you like.

Also, I think it's important to remind ourselves what samples actually are. They are like a photographic snapshot for each sound. And we are stitching these together like a cartoon zoetrope! It's all really just an illusion. However, it works quite well, just as does a Final Fantasy animation. We can enjoy watching and listening to them both, but we also do never quite forget that they are not real. I think what bothers you the most is that they've gotten so good, we're reaching the Uncanny Valley of samples and the closer we get to reality, the more differences we tend to notice or focus on.


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## RicardoSilva (Dec 20, 2021)

Knomes said:


> I tried using the analyzer but it seems to me that not much information can be gained by just looking at it. Even in a small amount of time, the spectrum of the same held note changes a lot.
> 
> I like the sound of the instrument, overall. I don't like the sound of this particular sustain vibrato sample.
> 
> ...


The con vibrato notes clearly have a high pitch screeching sound an octave above,I occasionally find these abnormalities with Vsl instruments, add a hard time dealing with a particular bell note precisely with this kind of "noise".


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## PerryD (Dec 20, 2021)

I like the Synchron series. Elite & Pro strings are great. I installed the woodwinds today but I am not as happy as I would have hoped. I like the a3 ensemble & tutti patches. The solo patches are not as expressive and fluid across transitions as my SWAM v3 soloists. I would rather try to sculpt timbre than playability. I purchased through Best Service, so no 14 day trial. :/ I _will_ make use of the ensembles. Perhaps VSL will have some clever breakthrough.


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## Knomes (Dec 20, 2021)

Zedcars said:


> I mean, a real oboe does have those silky upper harmonics that can sometimes sound like a flute floating quietly above it. I hear nothing terribly wrong with those samples. The Eb4 con vib does display this slightly more to my ears than the D4.


You are the second person telling me that you hear the thing more in the Eb4 than in the D4, while for me it only regards the D4. I'm really confused by all of this.

I just listened to the beautiful execution of Morricone's piece, but I didn't find any occurrence of this "virtual doubling" that I'm hearing in the samples. I'm starting to think that since the oboe has this peculiar behavior maybe it would be worth having round robins also on sustains.


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## Knomes (Dec 20, 2021)

synergy543 said:


> Clearly something is bothering you although when I listen here, I don't hear a problem. I think my setup would reveal any significant problem however sometimes its possible to focus on something that others don't hear until they too learn to focus on that particular aspect of the sound. Still, I'm about 99.99% sure I'm not missing anything here. I simply hear overtones, which are quite prominent and are what gives the oboe its character IMO.
> 
> Still, you want to solve your problem. Of course, ideally, you'd like VSL to resample those notes. However, this is something that you're hearing but VSL apparently isn't (and they have some good monitors!) and I'm not hearing it here either (and believe me, I've done my share of critical listening with VSL samples). Assuming it's not an acoustical problem or problem with your monitors, I think some mild EQ on these notes might be your best remedy. Using automatable EQ (such as in MOTU DP11) would be your best solution. The example I showed was fairly exaggerated but if you try it yourself, you can see how easy it is to actually toggle individual overtones on/off (as they are both visibly and audibly apparent). So if I were you, I'd set up an EQ focus on each of the overtones as I showed above, but then lessen the amount (dBs) of the EQ to your taste. Surely, you can find the problem and isolate it this way if it's actually in the sample.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the lengthy reply. I will go through it another day I think. Maybe during the holidays.


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## rgames (Dec 20, 2021)

Knomes said:


> In the case "Con vibrato", the second note seems (to me) like it is doubled an octave higher.


It's an overtone. It's normal. They come and go depending on the playing technique, room, dynamic, temperature, other instruments, etc.

I've spent many years editing them out of my recordings (clarinet). The example you gave is not that bad - I'd probably edit it out if it were a completely exposed line but maybe not.

rgames


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## holywilly (Dec 20, 2021)

I really hope Synchron Woodwinds are able to produce this kind of expressiveness.


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## richhickey (Dec 21, 2021)

ptram said:


> They didn't call it that way, because it had nothing in common with Timbre Adjust. The old Filter is still available in Synchron Player, but it is a totally different thing to Timbre Adjust.
> 
> Paolo


My point was people were doing this with "filter" before "timbre adjust", which is also certainly a filter. From the SB product page:



> "Timbre Adjust" presents a great alternative and addition to Velocity XFade. It is an intelligent filter tuned to work with Synchron Brass


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## Petrucci (Dec 21, 2021)

xsubs said:


> Is Synchron WW worth it as a replacement for Synchronized WW? I don't want to keep both, as there's so much overlap. Also, it's expensive and together too much disk space.
> Anyone with both care to comment.


First of all it's different sound and more possibilities with many mics in Synchron Woodwinds, while Synchron-ized Woodwinds have more articulations, another sound and also have more instruments (if you have Synchronized Woodwinds Packs which were released this fall). I'm keeping both for sure!


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## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

I have the Synchronized Woodwinds Pack, but will surely get Synchron Woodwinds Full in the next few days. Synchron Stage has a very different sound, and with all the mic/mix options, you get a different flavor, plus, you get sections, fx, runs, arps with the Synchron Woodwinds, that you don't get with the Synchronized version.


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2021)

richhickey said:


> My point was people were doing this with "filter" before "timbre adjust", which is also certainly a filter. From the SB product page:


Timbre Adjust is way more then just a filter. We describe it as intelligent filter, so it's easy to understand, but of course I can't share how it works, other then it does exactly what the name suggests, and therefore allows for much finer control of the timbre compared to the VelocityXF. This said, it's not meant to replace it, but as an extention, and to be used in combination.


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## richhickey (Dec 21, 2021)

Ben said:


> Timbre Adjust is way more then just a filter. We describe it as intelligent filter, so it's easy to understand, but of course I can't share how it works, other then it does exactly what the name suggests, and therefore allows for much finer control of the timbre compared to the VelocityXF. This said, it's not meant to replace it, but as an extention, and to be used in combination.


In DSP terms it's still a filter. You can use "intelligence" or heuristics or algorithms or magic crystals to drive it. I never said it's identical to the "filter" feature. I understand what it's for, and its utility. Synchron Brass says it has been "tuned" for brass. Has it been retuned for woodwinds? Or did you not need to because it is "intelligent"? 

None of that negates the fact that Synchron player could do more to place the combo of velXF/expr/(t-a) under a simpler control system, as JB Violin intelligently does. In any case this thread has become a tiresome parade of apologists and not a discussion of how sample libs and sample players could move forward. Moving three faders during each note isn't it IMO.


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 21, 2021)

richhickey said:


> In any case this thread has become a tiresome parade of apologists and not a discussion of how sample libs and sample players could move forward. Moving three faders during each note isn't it IMO.


On the contrary, I have found this thread full of interesting information.....


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## Ben (Dec 21, 2021)

richhickey said:


> Synchron Brass says it has been "tuned" for brass. Has it been retuned for woodwinds? Or did you not need to because it is "intelligent"?


Yes, at the time we tested it only against Synchron Brass, and did only some minor tests with other libraries, so we only recommended use with Brass at this time.
Now that this feature is tested with all libraries (and maybe further adjusted, I'm not sure) we can fully recommend it, and in fact it will be part of all instruments presets from now on.


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## ptram (Dec 22, 2021)

Ben said:


> Now that this feature is tested with all libraries (and maybe further adjusted, I'm not sure) we can fully recommend it, and in fact it will be part of all instruments presets from now on.


Ben, in your experience, is Timbre Adjust only effective with winds, or is it also useful on strings?

Paolo


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## Jackdnp121 (Dec 22, 2021)

Every time this thread pops up I‘ve got to hold on tight to my wallet …. 🥲 the demo sounded pretty good though …


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## ed buller (Dec 22, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> On the contrary, I have found this thread full of interesting information.....


Me too...I've learned heaps !...I was a tad disappointed but now that i'm using the right controllers and samples it sounds a lot better. I shall celebrate with an extra mince pie !

best

ed


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## Ben (Dec 22, 2021)

ptram said:


> Ben, in your experience, is Timbre Adjust only effective with winds, or is it also useful on strings?
> 
> Paolo


Winds work very well with it, for strings it works well if you don't overdo it. With a lot of Timbre Adjust applied the sound of strings gets darker compared to lower velocities - which can be useful as well, but is not necessary what you want.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 22, 2021)




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## ptram (Dec 23, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I really hope Synchron Woodwinds are able to produce this kind of expressiveness.


I don't know, but I've just finished my presets and expression map for Dorico, and this is my first try with the clarinet. No added reverb, only the original VSL mix.

The Shrink Next Door - 1, Clarinet (SY Woodwinds)

Paolo


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## Per Boysen (Dec 23, 2021)

In case someone has been wondering, I am happy to report that the WW patches do support pitch bend. I love this for playing with my EWI controller/instrument. The rhythmic aspect of vibrato is sadly neglected in some libraries - but not this one


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## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)




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## Per Boysen (Dec 26, 2021)

Does anyone have some experience of running the Synchron Player software on a laptop away from your main studio facility? I can't figure out how to do this and I suspect that the authorization isn't really concerning the e-licenser dongle but the actual machine? (as everything works as expected back in the studio). I have brought the complete USB hub containing all my SSDs and authorization dongles together with the production laptop, but unfortunately, it seems I am "stranded" with no way to use the Vienna stuff in the current productions.


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## AndyP (Dec 26, 2021)

Per Boysen said:


> Does anyone have some experience of running the Synchron Player software on a laptop away from your main studio facility? I can't figure out how to do this and I suspect that the authorization isn't really concerning the e-licenser dongle but the actual machine? (as everything works as expected back in the studio). I have brought the complete USB hub containing all my SSDs and authorization dongles together with the production laptop, but unfortunately, it seems I am "stranded" with no way to use the Vienna stuff in the current productions.


This is possible without any problems. Simply install the Synchron Player, Synchron Piano Player on all computers and plug in the dongle. The libraries can be present on multiple SSDs without any problems.
This way I use my VSL libraries either in the studio or on my mobile computer.


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## holywilly (Dec 28, 2021)

Have anyone here start using Synchron Woodwinds in projects? And how'd they go?


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## muziksculp (Dec 28, 2021)

This is the worst demo I heard for VSL Synchron Flute, and it's being compared to CSW in this video.


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## holywilly (Dec 28, 2021)

Actually the tone of the flute is good, ultra clean and detailed. I wish @Ben can spoil us by telling us the characteristics of the 2nd instruments that are coming early 2022.

@muziksculp have you had a chance to noodle Synchron Woodwinds yet?


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## muziksculp (Dec 28, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Actually the tone of the flute is good, ultra clean and detailed. I wish @Ben can spoil us by telling us the characteristics of the 2nd instruments that are coming early 2022.
> 
> @muziksculp have you had a chance to noodle Synchron Woodwinds yet?


Hi @holywilly,

I haven't ventured into testing Synchron Woodwinds yet, but I will do that soon, and post some demo clips, and my thoughts about the library.


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## DJiLAND (Dec 28, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> This is the worst demo I heard for VSL Synchron Flute, and it's being compared to CSW in this video.



I now have both libraries. I will use CSW for lines that emphasize the woodwind, such as solo, and Synchron for orchestral parts.
CSW is very expressive, but sometimes richer than necessary.


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## muziksculp (Dec 28, 2021)

DJiLAND said:


> CSW is very expressive, but sometimes richer than necessary.


That's why I'm not a fan of the CSW flute, it comes across as being too wooly, lacking focus, and trying to be a bit too sparkly timbre wise.


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Dec 29, 2021)

Thanks for a bit Star Wars! In the comparison I like CSW. The Synchron vibrato isn‘t pleasing here. Hope it‘s not like in SSP: The two vibrato variants are either too strong or too light. And the crossfading doesn‘t work, in my opinion. Would be better to have a progressive vibrato. With the old VI libraries you had a “natural” vibrato which increases and decreases with your dynamics. Is this still true with Synchron? Only had SSP and because of the reduced dynamic layers you can‘t really make this work; there isn‘t much difference in timbre.

On the other hand, I watched the other two no-talking-walkthroughs by @Soundbed for the woods and they sounded good. 

By the way, in case you haven’t seen: There is a Harry Potter mockup in the composition forum, using the entire Synchron series, so not only woods. Really like it and it is the best demo I‘ve heard so far.


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## holywilly (Dec 29, 2021)

The 2nd instruments aren’t yet revealed, I am expecting the 2nd instruments are having differentiated characters than the first one. Maybe more lyrical?

2 more days before the introductory ends, decisions decisions……


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 29, 2021)

holywilly said:


> The 2nd instruments aren’t yet revealed



Not released, but they are known: Flute 2, French Oboe 2, Clarinet in Bb 2, Bassoon 2.


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## Nicola74 (Dec 29, 2021)

I am pretty happy with Synchron Woodwinds and obviously I am waiting for the update, but I found a little issue in flute legato: if I play D4, F#4 and then again D4 (C3 central C), I notice a jump in the volume between the first two notes, while the last D4 has got the same volume of F#4 (higher than the first D4).
The same happens between Eb4 and G, while in others intervals it seems ok (I didn't try all the intervals with all the instruments for obvious reason...).
Maybe I am exaggerating a little bit and I can live with it, but I find it a little annoying.


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## madfloyd (Dec 29, 2021)

Has anyone done a comparison between Synchronized Woodwinds and Synchron Woodwinds?


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## Ben (Dec 29, 2021)

Nicola74 said:


> I am pretty happy with Synchron Woodwinds and obviously I am waiting for the update, but I found a little issue in flute legato: if I play D4, F#4 and then again D4 (C3 central C), I notice a jump in the volume between the first two notes, while the last D4 has got the same volume of F#4 (higher than the first D4).
> The same happens between Eb4 and G, while in others intervals it seems ok (I didn't try all the intervals with all the instruments for obvious reason...).
> Maybe I am exaggerating a little bit and I can live with it, but I find it a little annoying.


Could you please mention the VelocityXF value, or send me a MIDI file? I'll forward this to the editing team. Thanks!


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## Nicola74 (Dec 29, 2021)

Ben said:


> Could you please mention the VelocityXF value, or send me a MIDI file? I'll forward this to the editing team. Thanks!


Hi Ben,
The patch is Flute legato regular vibrato with VelocityXF 65. Thanks to you.


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## Nicola74 (Dec 29, 2021)

I am using just the room-mix mic, without the internal reverb.


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## Saxer (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> This is the worst demo I heard for VSL Synchron Flute, and it's being compared to CSW in this video.



Another flute player who doesn't need to breath... 

Ok, my preference is VSL here. More natural for my taste


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

Saxer said:


> Another flute player who doesn't need to breath...
> 
> Ok, my preference is VSL here. More natural for my taste


@Saxer , I'm with you here, VSL wins for my taste as well  .

The non-breathing flute player demo by soundbed.  Lots of experts who probably never played a flute.


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> The non-breathing flute player demo by soundbed.  Lots of experts who probably never played a flute.



Now there is a technique called "circular breathing" with which a wind player theoretically can play on indefinitely by inhaling through the nose while playing a note. This is a technique that can be practiced and used for concert flute too. So the demo is actually possible.

Famous example of this technique is Dizzy Gillespie. That's what his famous big cheeks are for (storing air). I tried the technique myself, but gave up on it eventually as I had no real use for it.


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Now there is a technique called "circular breathing" with which a wind player theoretically can play on indefinitely by inhaling through the nose while playing a note. This is a technique that can be practiced and used for concert flute too. So the demo is actually possible.
> 
> Famous example of this technique is Dizzy Gillespie. That's what his famous big cheeks are for (storing air). I tried the technique myself, but gave up on it eventually as I had no real use for it.


I'm aware of circular breathing, but not all flute players can do it, or need to. Actually I watched a documentary about Kenny G, and he can do Circular Breathing, and has a world record of holding a note for don't recall how long playing his sax.  I wouldn't want hear him do it, since I can't stand his music.


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## Jackdnp121 (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm aware of circular breathing, but not all flute players can do it, or need to. Actually I watched a documentary about Kenny G, and he can do Circular Breathing, and has a world record of holding a note for don't recall how long playing his sax.  I wouldn't want hear him do it, since I can't stand his music.


Saw him live in one of the casino club I used to play at … he is the only person I’ve seen that shakes audiences hand while doing a sax solo 🤣 … but very cool guy , nice to talk to , friendly ….anyway back to synchron woodwind …


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## Germain B (Dec 29, 2021)

I can't believe that after that much back and forth I'm gonna pass on this and Elite Strings (for the 4th time, VSL, common !, stop being the white smiling little devil on my right shoulder)...
Feel free to change my mind. Or rather no, don't. Well... Maybe some external advice might.... shush.. but.. .. ......


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## Saxer (Dec 29, 2021)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Now there is a technique called "circular breathing" with which a wind player theoretically can play on indefinitely by inhaling through the nose while playing a note. This is a technique that can be practiced and used for concert flute too. So the demo is actually possible.


Circular breathing may be possible but I never met a concert flute player who could do that. You can't blow up the cheeks while keeping the classical embouchure so the only air to store is in your mouth (like moving the chin between an O and an E vocal) while playing. Also the diaphragm tone support and vibrato isn't possible at all and you don't have any dynamic control. So no, this examples are not possible to perform with circular breathing. 
​


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## re-peat (Dec 30, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> The non-breathing flute player demo by soundbed.  Lots of experts who probably never played a flute.



You might wanna tone that down a little, Sculp. Nathan never put himself forward as ‘an expert’, he’s simply in the process of finding out which library works best for him, and that video, which you seem to like to make so much fun of, is one of many steps on that road.

What’s included aren’t meant to be realistic performances, they’re merely timbre and instrumental character comparisons (by his own admission, quickly and inaccurately played in, and obviously without any regard for the required breathing pauses). My earlier examples didn’t have sufficient breathing gaps either. A few, but nowhere near enough. Not because I don’t know they ought to be there, but because the examples focused on something else entirely. I guess it’s the same with Nathan.

Moreover, he has the courage and helpful disposition to share his library explorations, warts and all and for whatever they’re worth, with the other members here. Instead of mocking that with smug and haughty comments, you could maybe show a little appreciation. Or, better still, remain humbly silent. Especially since you haven’t offered us anything at all except your usual pointless thread-extending noise.

_


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## Marcus Millfield (Dec 30, 2021)

Saxer said:


> Circular breathing may be possible but I never met a concert flute player who could do that.



There are those who can and use it, but I'll agree with your assessment.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Dec 30, 2021)

Lizzo can do it.



Marcus Millfield said:


> There are those who can and use it, but I'll agree with your assessment.


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## Saxer (Dec 30, 2021)

But I agree that it's not important for a technical library test. It just strikes me as being a flute player myself.


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## Gerbil (Dec 30, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Lizzo can do it.


I can do that trick. 

But I don't use a flute...


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## Virtuoso (Dec 30, 2021)

Nicola74 said:


> I am pretty happy with Synchron Woodwinds and obviously I am waiting for the update, but I found a little issue in flute legato


I was just playing around with the Star Wars melody and noticed this 'yelping dog legato' which happens on any descending full- or semi-tone interval on the Legato Fast and Legato Marc. start, Fast articulations. 

View attachment Yelping Dog Legato.mp3


And while I'm here - does anyone else think the Clarinet Legato Espressivo is a little quiet relative to the other Legato types?

View attachment Clarinet Legato Espressivo.mp3


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## muziksculp (Dec 30, 2021)

re-peat said:


> You might wanna tone that down a little, Sculp. Nathan never put himself forward as ‘an expert’, he’s simply in the process of finding out which library works best for him, and that video, which you seem to like to make so much fun of, is one of many steps on that road.
> 
> What’s included aren’t meant to be realistic performances, they’re merely timbre and instrumental character comparisons (by his own admission, quickly and inaccurately played in, and obviously without any regard for the required breathing pauses). My earlier examples didn’t have sufficient breathing gaps either. A few, but nowhere near enough. Not because I don’t know they ought to be there, but because the examples focused on something else entirely. I guess it’s the same with Nathan.
> 
> ...


Hi @re-peat ,

I didn't mean to be harsh with my comments, maybe I misunderstood the main focus of the video, I rarely post negative comments about videos, but being a flute player myself, I didn't feel that his comparison of VSL Synchron Flute and CSW Flute, was fair, or properly conducted, I'm guessing he didn't have enough experience with Synchron Flute, and given that VSL libraries are so much deeper, than CSW, and have so many more articulations, and options of xfading, ..etc. I felt that he needed to spend more time with Synchron before posting a comparison video. 

Again, If I was a bit harsh with my comments to Nathan's video, I'm sorry about that, it was more of a knee jerk reaction for me after watching the video, I should have been more diplomatic with my comments. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Zanshin (Dec 30, 2021)

re-peat said:


> Instead of mocking that with smug and haughty comments, you could maybe show a little appreciation. Or, better still, remain humbly silent. Especially since you haven’t offered us anything at all except your usual pointless thread-extending noise.



Someone call 911! we just witnessed a murder.


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## holywilly (Dec 30, 2021)

This time I have no regret re-purchasing Synchron Woodwinds. After deep diving the setting, tweaking parameters the Synchron Player, I finally able to write expressively with Syn WW. 

The sounds of Syn WW is simply awesome!


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## Petrucci (Dec 30, 2021)

holywilly said:


> This time I have no regret re-purchasing Synchron Woodwinds. After deep diving the setting, tweaking parameters the Synchron Player, I finally able to write expressively with Syn WW.
> 
> The sounds of Syn WW is simply awesome!


Welcome back!


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## muziksculp (Dec 30, 2021)

holywilly said:


> This time I have no regret re-purchasing Synchron Woodwinds. After deep diving the setting, tweaking parameters the Synchron Player, I finally able to write expressively with Syn WW.
> 
> The sounds of Syn WW is simply awesome!


_*Congratulations ! *_ Smart decision.  and we will be getting more woodwind soloist early next year.

I'm hoping we see Synchron Solo Strings released during Q1-2022. 

Enjoy and Happy New Year  🧡


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## holywilly (Dec 30, 2021)

I can’t praise enough both sampling quality, how advanced and flexibility of Synchron Player. All of their libraries and samplers are so deep, require some amount of time to explore and study. 

@muziksculp I’m also looking forward to the Synchron Solo Strings and other upcoming Synchron Instruments. Maybe additional woodwinds like bass flute, and bass oboe will be nice. 

One more thing, I wish the dynamic x-fade for trills can be more smoother.


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## Jackdnp121 (Dec 31, 2021)

Ok VSL you won …. Got myself a copy of synchron woodwind at the last mins … very excited to make more music with this 🙂🙏 and also happy new year


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## holywilly (Jan 1, 2022)

Introductory price extended to end of January, how generous VSL is!


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

Decided to give the Synchron Woodwinds a try and to try out the synchron range a bit more. If I really liked this one then I was planning to buy the rest of the synchron ranges over 2022. However, I'm not sure how I feel about the library. 

I'm not that experienced with the Synchron player and admit that I have not played with it that much yet but on first impressions I'm not that impressed with the legatos. They sound pretty bad out the box in comparison to other libraries and yes I have experimented with lots of CC movement and editing. The legatos appear to be no were near as nice or good as something like CSW. Can you raise the volumes of the legato transition at all for the legatos in synchron? 

Beyond the legatos the shorts, tone and the many articulations it has are all really nice and great. Really like the portato shorts and it has a lot of very nice articulations and obviously many more than something like CSW but for me I'm not sure ill be keeping this one because at that price I also want nice legatos. 

This has pretty much at the moment made me conclude that overall the synchron line of libraries are unfortunately not for me and its probably pointless continuing to buy any more of them as it appears they all have a similar design and legato programming.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

I also have their synchronized woodwinds and the legatos in that sound much better than the ones you get in synchron woods.


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Decided to give the Synchron Woodwinds a try and to try out the synchron range a bit more. If I really liked this one then I was planning to buy the rest of the synchron ranges over 2022. However, I'm not sure how I feel about the library.
> 
> I'm not that experienced with the Synchron player and admit that I have not played with it that much yet but on first impressions I'm not that impressed with the legatos. They sound pretty bad out the box in comparison to other libraries and yes I have experimented with lots of CC movement and editing. The legatos appear to be no were near as nice or good as something like CSW. Can you raise the volumes of the legato transition at all for the legatos in synchron?
> 
> ...


have u tried update it ?...
the legato seems better once I updated it


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 1, 2022)

first impression .... what a lovely sound ... so elegant ... love it ...the tone of the flute is just amazing

however I do think some dynamic across the instrument range and not balanced ... maybe need some more editing ...? not sure

and I think mine contra bassoon is broken

it doesn't sounds right and some keys are not working too ... lol

also some bassoon note are not working too 

how ever I do looking forward for 2nd instrument update ...

cheers


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

Jackdnp121 said:


> have u tried update it ?...
> the legato seems better once I updated it


Not too sure. Is their an update for it? I just downloaded the one that was on site after purchasing today and assumed this would be the latest version.


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Not too sure. Is their an update for it? I just downloaded the one that was on site after purchasing today and assumed this would be the latest version.


yes sir trust me you need to update it ... go to your account - mydownloads - synching library updates


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

Jackdnp121 said:


> yes sir trust me you need to update it ... go to your account - mydownloads - synching library updates


I can't see any updates for it in my account.


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 1, 2022)

go to the website - click on the far right top icon ... and then My VSL ... look for mydownloads on the left hand side - make a tick on the synchron library updates boxes - then you'll be able to find it at the bottom


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

Jackdnp121 said:


> go to the website - click on the far right top icon ... and then My VSL ... look for mydownloads on the left hand side - make a tick on the synchron library updates boxes - then you'll be able to find it at the bottom


Thanks, but annoyingly nothing is showing for an update for Synchron woodwinds when I do that :(


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

Just getting this:


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## dunamisstudio (Jan 1, 2022)

holywilly said:


> This time I have no regret re-purchasing Synchron Woodwinds. After deep diving the setting, tweaking parameters the Synchron Player, I finally able to write expressively with Syn WW.
> 
> The sounds of Syn WW is simply awesome!


So Synchron WW or Synchronized WW should I shoot for next?


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Thanks, but annoyingly nothing is showing for an update for Synchron woodwinds when I do that :(


that's strange ! 

look


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Just getting this:


unselect Synchron Woodwind in the box - use ALL MY PRODUCTS instead ... it'll show ... I think


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

Jackdnp121 said:


> unselect Synchron Woodwind in the box - use ALL MY PRODUCTS instead ... it'll show ... I think


Their no update for the synchron woodwinds though? Just the synchronized ones?


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## muziksculp (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Their no update for the synchron woodwinds though? Just the synchronized ones?


They have updates from the VI version to the Synchronized version. Because the samples are the same. But not to the Synchron version, because the samples are new, and completely different. So, they are a separate line of their libraries.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> They have updates from the VI version to the Synchronized version. Because the samples are the same. But not to the Synchron version, because the samples are new, and completely different. So, they are a separate line of their libraries.


Yeah that's what I was thinking. Think I am probably going to return the synchron woods. I'm not a fan of the legatos in it. Unless I'm doing something wrong.


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## madfloyd (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Their no update for the synchron woodwinds though? Just the synchronized ones?


That’s right, his screenshot doesn’t show an update either. He appears to be confused.


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 1, 2022)

I think he is looking for the patch update for synchron woodwind ... which he can't find ...


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## madfloyd (Jan 1, 2022)

Jackdnp121 said:


> I think he is looking for the patch update for synchron woodwind ... which he can't find ...


Because there isn’t one apparently.


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 1, 2022)

Yes ! just double checked there isn't one ... I'm confused ... anyway ... hopefully one coming soon! along with the 2nd instrument patch


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## muziksculp (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Yeah that's what I was thinking. Think I am probably going to return the synchron woods. I'm not a fan of the legatos in it. Unless I'm doing something wrong.


Nothing is wrong with the Legatos, actually they are very very good.


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## madfloyd (Jan 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Nothing is wrong with the Legatos, actually they are very very good.


Well to be fair, there are reports to the contrary, with some audio clips (e.g. post 539).


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Nothing is wrong with the Legatos, actually they are very very good.


Something wrong my end then or just a different taste for what I like from a legato patch. I cant hear much of the legato transitions or as much as I would like. Perhaps I'm just not doing something in the syncron player to make them sound better. As a comparison, CSW legato's sounds more expressive and realistic to me.


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## holywilly (Jan 1, 2022)

dunamisstudio said:


> So Synchron WW or Synchronized WW should I shoot for next?


New samples vs old sample remastered, red pill or the blue, the future is upon your choice. 

I’ll choose the newly sampled Synchron Woodwinds if I were you.


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## markleake (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Something wrong my end then or just a different taste for what I like from a legato patch. I cant hear much of the legato transitions or as much as I would like. Perhaps I'm just not doing something in the syncron player to make them sound better. As a comparison, CSW legato's sounds more expressive and realistic to me.


Can you post an example? Which instrument(s) are you referencing?

I'm late to the party here, but I've read through the full thread now with interest. Personally I've found so far that the legatos can be 'smeary' sometimes (like what has already been observed in previous posts), but otherwise quite good.

In general woodwinds don't really have an strong 'smoothed' legato sound. The players normally don't try and emphasize the legato slur much, or slow it down, unless there's a specific need to. That's not how woodwind players usually play legato... in reality it's just changing notes without re-tounging. Often with the woodwinds you want them to play nimbly, including with legato transitions.

I think the legato style in CSW is more controlled, more for solo style playing maybe. Could that be why it stands out to you more in CSW and you think it's missing a bit in Synchron? Both are realistic, but the CSW style may not be what you want some (most?) of the time for regular orchestral instruments. CSW sounds like it makes the tone more polished and emphasises the smoothness of the transition. i.e. to be more lyrical, but at a cost.

Anyway, I have SynWW, but I don't have CSW, so I can't properly compare them. I'm just going by examples I've heard of CSW, so I could be totally off base here.

Actually, I like both approaches.



muziksculp said:


> Nothing is wrong with the Legatos, actually they are very very good.


Lol. Literally half the thread is taken up with discussions about how to improve the legatos!


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## ansthenia (Jan 1, 2022)

Playing around with these woodwinds today. They're nice for sure, but I honestly prefer both the tone and performance of the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds, which are warmer and, to me, more expressive.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

markleake said:


> Can you post an example? Which instrument(s) are you referencing?
> 
> I'm late to the party here, but I've read through the full thread now with interest. Personally I've found so far that the legatos can be 'smeary' sometimes (like what has already been observed in previous posts), but otherwise quite good.
> 
> ...


I'll try do two small demos tomorrow if I get some free time. The legatos just don't sound that good compared to my other libraries, they sound less realistic to me and more disconnected and less like a slurred performance of some notes. I also think the legatos in Synchronized Woodwinds are better and are not like this at all. 

CSW does indeed have quite an expressive legato which does suit more solo type playing, but more realistic sounding for a performance of some slurred notes. 

I need to use synchron woodwinds more before I can really make any conclusions on the legatos on as I am not that experienced with using the synchron the player, so maybe their is some hidden settings that improve it or change it.


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## muziksculp (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> I'll try do two small demos tomorrow if I get some free time. The legatos just don't sound that good compared to my other libraries, they sound less realistic to me and more disconnected and less like a slurred performance of some notes. I also think the legatos in Synchronized Woodwinds are better and are not like this at all.
> 
> CSW does indeed have quite an expressive legato which does suit more solo type playing, but more realistic sounding for a performance of some slurred notes.
> 
> I need to use synchron woodwinds more before I can really make any conclusions on the legatos on as I am not that experienced with using the synchron the player, so maybe their is some hidden settings that improve it or change it.


Just an audio clip with one or more of the woodwind instruments that you do not think are good enough for your needs would be a good way to show us what you mean.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 1, 2022)

Just a very quick example, not had much time and its pretty late here, I should go to sleep haha. It was played in very quickly and obviously not great, so it's not meant to be a proper comparison. But the one first one is Synchronized Woodwinds and library 2 is Synchron woodwinds.


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## Virtuoso (Jan 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Just an audio clip with one or more of the woodwind instruments that you do not think are good enough for your needs would be a good way to show us what you mean.


I think there's an issue with the fast legatos. Seems to affect quite a few of the woodwinds. Unless they're going for a kind of 'bagpipes' vibe..?

View attachment Woodwinds Fast Legato.mp3


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## markleake (Jan 1, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> I think there's an issue with the fast legatos. Seems to affect quite a few of the woodwinds. Unless they're going for a kind of 'bagpipes' vibe..?
> 
> View attachment Woodwinds Fast Legato.mp3


This happens with any of the newer Synchron libraries when you use the fast legato as a slow legato. It's not designed for this purpose. If you have Synchron Strings Pro, you can hear the same artifacts. It's due to how they record the newer legatos, I'm guessing. Solution: use normal legato for normal legatos.


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## Virtuoso (Jan 1, 2022)

markleake said:


> This happens with any of the newer Synchron libraries when you use the fast legato as a slow legato. It's not designed for this purpose. If you have Synchron Strings Pro, you can hear the same artifacts. It's due to how they record the newer legatos, I'm guessing. Solution: use normal legato for normal legatos.


The slow example was just to show the issue. It happens with fast notes too though - and it's always on semi- or full-tone descending intervals. It doesn't happen on other intervals.

View attachment Fast Legato.mp3


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## markleake (Jan 1, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Just a very quick example, not had much time and its pretty late here, I should go to sleep haha. It was played in very quickly and obviously not great, so it's not meant to be a proper comparison. But the one first one is Synchronized Woodwinds and library 2 is Synchron woodwinds.


The legatos sound similar to me in this comparison.

Actually I think your example isn't really showing the differences very well. When I compare these flutes myself, I notice in the second register there is a noticeable difference... the Synchron flute doesn't have the same bump in the legato as the Synchron-ized 1st flute. In the later the player is articulating the note change more, which is a nice effect. There's not as much difference between the two in the lower register to my ears.

Whether you want the player to articulate the notes more (or whatever that bump is), I guess that is up to you. It can be a +ve or -ve. Personal taste.

This may well be a question of legato volume (I'm far from being an expert on anything here), which I'm assuming VSL has some creative control over in the editing / building of the patches. So yeah, having some kind of legato volume control to bring that quality out more could be good.


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## markleake (Jan 1, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> The slow example was just to show the issue. It happens with fast notes too though - and it's always on semi- or full-tone descending intervals. It doesn't happen on other intervals.
> 
> View attachment Fast Legato.mp3


I tried the flute, couldn't get this to happen when playing fast.
Is this example the oboe? Which legato patch? It does sound a bit messy... maybe VSL needs to do some tidy up of the samples?


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## Virtuoso (Jan 1, 2022)

Try Flute 1 - Legato/Fast Legato/Senza Vibrato. Play legato C5-D5 - a Bb makes a rogue appearance.
Play legato G5 to C5. Descending is wonky, ascending is (apart from the C-D interval) clean.
View attachment Flute 1 Fast Legato.mp3


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## DJiLAND (Jan 1, 2022)

In my opinion, in general, the drier the library, the better the legato is processed than the wet library.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 1, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> The slow example was just to show the issue. It happens with fast notes too though - and it's always on semi- or full-tone descending intervals. It doesn't happen on other intervals.
> 
> View attachment Fast Legato.mp3


How high is the legato blur CC? Also, how much are the notes overlapping? (both will affect the volume/length of the transition sample)


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## Virtuoso (Jan 1, 2022)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> How high is the legato blur CC? Also, how much are the notes overlapping? (both will affect the volume/length of the transition sample)


I just tried and legato blur makes no difference - the rogue notes still appear whether it's set to 0 or 100. The length of note overlap also makes no difference. I think it's just a scripting bug. Play the notes as above in post #582 and see if you hear the same?


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 1, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> I just tried and legato blur makes no difference - the rogue notes still appear whether it's set to 0 or 100. The length of note overlap also makes no difference. I think it's just a scripting bug. Play the notes as above in post #582 and see if you hear the same?


Hmm... Is it little key click in there? Or the timing? I hear the key click for sure.... but ascents and descents aside from that C-to-D note sound pretty similar to me.


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## Virtuoso (Jan 1, 2022)

You don't hear the extra notes? It's a tonal issue I'm hearing not key clicks.

Some odd clunks and overtones on the clarinet legato too...

View attachment Clarinet Legato.mp3


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 1, 2022)

ohh I see... got it.... I think I know what's going on.

@Ben see if this happens for you:

*Synchron Flute 1*

Legato->Fast->Senza vibrato
Stretch On
Destination BPM 97
Vel.XF "On"
Vel.XF value = 127
Stretch Factor value = 0

Do you hear the transition note from C5 to D5 coming from the Bb below it instead of C5? This is not happening on intervals greater than a major second. Check other notes... the descent from A4 to G4. That transition is coming from the B above it.

Good ear @Virtuoso.


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## rgames (Jan 1, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> Try Flute 1 - Legato/Fast Legato/Senza Vibrato. Play legato C5-D5 - a Bb makes a rogue appearance.
> Play legato G5 to C5. Descending is wonky, ascending is (apart from the C-D interval) clean.
> View attachment Flute 1 Fast Legato.mp3


That's what happens if you put a flute or clarinet in a highly reverberant space. You get overtones that result from interactions between/among notes that are ringing out. It even happens when in a relatively dry space.

Stop by my house some time and my wife and I will play some clarinet/flute duets that generate all kinds of crazy overtones. As I posted somewhere earlier in this thread, I've spent a lot of time editing them out of my recordings.



It's not a rogue note. It's reality.

rgames


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## Virtuoso (Jan 1, 2022)

rgames said:


> It's not a rogue note. It's reality.


But it only happens on descending intervals of 1-2 semitones and only on the fast legato articulations. If it was a quirk of room resonance, surely you would hear it on the standard legatos and on ascending intervals too?

Occam's razor suggests it's just a bug.


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## ptram (Jan 2, 2022)

markleake said:


> Whether you want the player to articulate the notes more (or whatever that bump is), I guess that is up to you.


I can't try it now. But with SY Woodwinds, if you want a little more disconnected legato you can try the regular sustains. I feel the attack of legato notes, with that articulation, is already smoothed out, as if they were slurred.

Paolo


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## holywilly (Jan 2, 2022)

ptram said:


> I can't try it now. But with SY Woodwinds, if you want a little more disconnected legato you can try the regular sustains. I feel the attack of legato notes, with that articulation, is already smoothed out, as if they were slurred.
> 
> Paolo


Or decrease the value for “Performance Release” in option under edit tab.


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## JTB (Jan 2, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> In my opinion, in general, the drier the library, the better the legato is processed than the wet library.


Give me dry samples with IR's any day. Better on RAM and way better legato.
If VSL want to give us multiple mics, they should record in the silent stage with a number of close mics.
Then we can use which ever IR we want and blend the close mics together to create our preferred sound. IR technology is still the bees knees. 



Synchron WW believe it or not, is only 19+ GB of content. The VI WW libraries are 118GB of content.
For 150 euro more, the VI libraries are the no brainer of the century.


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## Virtuoso (Jan 2, 2022)

JTB said:


> Synchron WW believe it or not, is only 19+ GB of content. The VI WW libraries are 118GB of content.


I'm not sure where you're getting that number from? The Synchron WW Full library is 148GB on my system - I think the Standard library is around 85-90GB. And they haven't released all the instruments yet.


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## JTB (Jan 2, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting that number from?


148 / 7 (mics) = 21GB


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## Virtuoso (Jan 2, 2022)

JTB said:


> 148 / 7 (mics) = 21GB


Oh I see - it's been a long night. I should probably go to bed now!


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## doctoremmet (Jan 2, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> I'm not sure where you're getting that number from? The Synchron WW Full library is 148GB on my system - I think the Standard library is around 85-90GB. And they haven't released all the instruments yet.


Standard Library:


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 2, 2022)

markleake said:


> The legatos sound similar to me in this comparison.
> 
> Actually I think your example isn't really showing the differences very well. When I compare these flutes myself, I notice in the second register there is a noticeable difference... the Synchron flute doesn't have the same bump in the legato as the Synchron-ized 1st flute. In the later the player is articulating the note change more, which is a nice effect. There's not as much difference between the two in the lower register to my ears.
> 
> ...


Yeah I agree, my example is probably not the best example or comparison. It was just a simple improv using the legato patches.

I also think that it could just be down to the legato volumes/ volumes of legato transitions. Is their not any ways to control this in the synchron player? I wonder why they have done it differently for the synchron libraries.

I just think the synchronized woods legatos are much better, easier to use and more expressive to play.


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## Ben (Jan 2, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> I also think that it could just be down to the legato volumes/ volumes of legato transitions. Is their not any ways to control this in the synchron player? I wonder why they have done it differently for the synchron libraries.


This volume of the transitions are carefully scripted, and changing the volume would break the articulation.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 3, 2022)

Decided to return the synchron woods. On further testing them out I concluded that I just much prefer the synchronized woods over the synchron ones.


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## holywilly (Jan 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> This volume of the transitions are carefully scripted, and changing the volume would break the articulation.


Is there any ways to adjust the legato transitions speed? I wish it can be a little slower.


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## holywilly (Jan 3, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Decided to return the synchron woods. On further testing them out I concluded that I just much prefer the synchronized woods over the synchron ones.


I’m sorry to hear that. I returned on the same day when purchased, then bought it back again. After hours of tweaking and fine tuning, I actually like Synchron Woodwinds over the VI woodwinds that I’ve been rocking for ages. 

I’m sure VSL will make this library a perfect set of winds via updates.


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## madfloyd (Jan 3, 2022)

What are the rules for returns?


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## Ben (Jan 3, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> What are the rules for returns?


Bought on our site, and return request was send within 14 days of purchase to [email protected] or [email protected]


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## madfloyd (Jan 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> Bought on our site, and return request was send within 14 days of purchase to [email protected] or [email protected]


Thanks, Ben. I haven't been able to try it yet since I'm traveling... but I'll be back before the 14 days so it's all good.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 3, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I’m sorry to hear that. I returned on the same day when purchased, then bought it back again. After hours of tweaking and fine tuning, I actually like Synchron Woodwinds over the VI woodwinds that I’ve been rocking for ages.
> 
> I’m sure VSL will make this library a perfect set of winds via updates.


Might not have giving them enough time but I did attempt to tweak and fine tune it but I still overall prefer the synchronized ones and my other woodwind libraries that I have over synchron woods. In the end I just much preferred the synchronized woods legatos which I find don't really need any tweaking, sound great and are very playable. I also concluded that it's an expensive additional woods library to have when synchronized woods are sufficient enough with arguably much better legatos and still with a great tone/playability.


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## holywilly (Jan 3, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Might not have giving them enough time but I did attempt to tweak and fine tune it but I still overall prefer the synchronized ones and my other woodwind libraries that I have over synchron woods. In the end I just much preferred the synchronized woods legatos which I find don't really need any tweaking, sound great and are very playable. I also concluded that it's an expensive additional woods library to have when synchronized woods are sufficient enough with arguably much better legatos and still with a great tone/playability.


I hear you, exactly my thought when first got hands on Synchron Woodwinds. The VI/Synchronized woodwinds are really hard to beat. 

Now having both VI and Synchron woodwinds makes my template extravagant.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 3, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I hear you, exactly my thought when first got hands on Synchron Woodwinds. The VI/Synchronized woodwinds are really hard to beat.
> 
> Now having both VI and Synchron woodwinds makes my template extravagant.


Synchronized/VI woods are certainly great! There were nice things about the synchron woods though. I found the other articulations all very good, so I can imagine having both would be great and you could always use the synchronized woods legatos and synchron woods together if you wanted too. I just could not quite justify the price when I already have the synchronized ones, which I do in many ways still prefer.


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## Vadium (Jan 5, 2022)

Dear owners of both vi-pro woodwinds (no synchronized!) and SY-woodwinds: could you be so good as to make comparision of the legato passage, like this: c-e-c-f-c-g-c-a-c-g?


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## holywilly (Jan 5, 2022)

Synchron Oboe (Room Mix Wide presets, with higher Mid+Close volume)
View attachment Oboe_SY.mp3


VI Oboe (MIRx Synchron Stage, 36% of dry/wet ratio)
View attachment Oboe_VI.mp3


Did a quick run per @Vadium's request. I didn't just copy the midi data, I play them live without quantized. Please excuse my sluggish playing.


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## Vadium (Jan 6, 2022)

@holywilly Thanks a lot! I hear a chorus between layers in SY-version, so VI-version sounds better for me.


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## emilio_n (Jan 6, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Synchron Oboe (Room Mix Wide presets, with higher Mid+Close volume)
> View attachment Oboe_SY.mp3
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly, the VI version sounds much better to me...


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## vms (Jan 6, 2022)

emilio_n said:


> Honestly, the VI version sounds much better to me...


Absolutely, the Synchron version has too much low (around 200-300hz ?), and lacks 4khz.


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## Jackdnp121 (Jan 6, 2022)

Unfortunately… I’m gonna have to agreed with everyone …


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

I truly wish VI woodwinds include a second French oboe. 

What other instruments would you guys want me to compare? I’ll do the same melody as oboes.


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## Vadium (Jan 6, 2022)

holywilly said:


> What other instruments would you guys want me to compare?


flute and clarinet please


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

Vadium said:


> flute and clarinet please


Will do, I also wanna do bassoon too.


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## Ben (Jan 6, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Will do, I also wanna do bassoon too.


If you are already on it, please also try using both libraries with the instruments playing together in context - imo that's one of the big strengths of Synchron Woodwinds compared to the SYized counterparts.


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

@Ben, I usually use solo winds in my score, therefore the solo performance of the library is crucial. Unfortunately I have no opportunity to write big orchestral scores at any moment.


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## Ben (Jan 6, 2022)

holywilly said:


> @Ben, I usually use solo winds in my score, therefore the solo performance of the library is crucial. Unfortunately I have no opportunity to write big orchestral scores at any moment.


Thanks for letting me know 
[IMO]
Of course I have also compared these two libraries during my testing. And while I personally prefer some instruments form the SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds over the Synchron Woodwinds in solo context, when playing as woodwind ensemble or in orchestral context I always preferred the Synchron Woodwinds. 
So my personal conclusion for my use-cases was something like this: Use Synchron Woodwinds unless you want to write a solo or exposed line, where it is a case-to-case decision.


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

I totally agree with that. Synchron woodwinds works beautifully with Synchron Strings (Pro and Elite), which I use quite frequent in my composition; and I use VI woodwinds when it comes exposed solo lines. 

Both libraries are great, can’t really live without both. 

Making the comparison is showing what each library is capable of, the metrology of choosing right libraries for certain tasks.


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

Also, the fortissimo layers are too exposed if we push CC 1 dramatically, that isn’t an issue with VI woodwinds. 

So I set my CC1 limit from 0 to 0.85, to avoid the sudden jump of dynamic layer. That happens with Brass library too. I understand the Timbre Adust is the new black magic, somehow I wish the tone and timbre stay unchanged.


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## Ben (Jan 6, 2022)

holywilly said:


> somehow I wish the tone and timbre stay unchanged.


Well, over the years we got many requests to also add a ff/fff layer, especially regarding brass. For Synchron Brass we decided to also offer patches where the fff layer is not included to make it easier to work with it. Like you already noticed, the highest velocity changes the timbre of these instruments quite a bit. For Woodwinds it's far less, but still audible.


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## Germain B (Jan 6, 2022)

Yeahy ! I've just joined the VSL family !
I've jumped on Synchron WW (standard) for the reasons you guys mentioned. Woodwinds are by far my favorites instruments and this section is the central element in most of my music (orchestral) so it made perfect sens to get this one.

Oh, and I got Elite Strings (full) too because.. because.


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

Ben said:


> Well, over the years we got many requests to also add a ff/fff layer, especially regarding brass. For Synchron Brass we decided to also offer patches where the fff layer is not included to make it easier to work with it. Like you already noticed, the highest velocity changes the timbre of these instruments quite a bit. For Woodwinds it's far less, but still audible.


I truly wish the transitions between layers can me more smoother, and cross fade can be more dramatic on woodwinds.


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

@Ben kudos to VSL finally releasing the whole Synchron orchestra, as my main tools for everyday writing. And thanks for so responsive on the forum discussing the libraries, both positives and negatives. 

I can’t wait for the 2nd wind instruments to be released, and maybe do a solo winds and strings libraries for exposed, expressive solo lines, that will be truly awesome.


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## Marcus Millfield (Jan 6, 2022)

Placing your own instruments in a room is addictive!

Ever since getting MIRPro, I'm leaning more and more toward using the dry, single instrument libraries and placing (and mixing) them on a stage myself versus using instrument presets like in Synchron.


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## Zanshin (Jan 6, 2022)

Marcus Millfield said:


> Placing your own instruments in a room is addictive!



Fellow addict here. It's very freeing, my favorite brass and winds packages (Syz Dim Brass and Syz WW) are easy to put in Synchron, Teldex, small studio etc. That's unbelievably cool.

That said, like @holywilly, I'm happy to have the whole Synchron orchestra too


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## rustamh (Jan 6, 2022)

For that kind of money, the library should be perfect))


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## Marcus Millfield (Jan 6, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> ... my favorite brass and winds packages (Syz Dim Brass and Syz WW)...



Man to my heart! Those are my favs as well. It's unbelievable how flexible those Dimension libraries are. Both Strings and Brass are the first I go to in my template.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 6, 2022)

rustamh said:


> For that kind of money, the library should be perfect))


Name a single perfect library at any price point 😂


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## smellypants (Jan 6, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Name a single perfect library at any price point 😂


Synchron Woodwinds?


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

More instruments are here:

Synchron Flute 1
View attachment SYN_Flute1.mp3

VI Flute 1
View attachment VI_Flute1.mp3


Synchron Clarinet 1
View attachment SYN_Cl1.mp3

VI Clarinet 1
View attachment VI_Cl1.mp3


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

Synchron Bassoon 1
View attachment SYN_Bsn.mp3

VI Basson 1
View attachment VI_Bsn.mp3


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## Casiquire (Jan 6, 2022)

I'm kind of shocked by how much i prefer the VI versions posted here, but i think Ben isn't far off base with his opinions either and I can see how the Synchron version might sound better as an ensemble and the VI may be better as upfront soloists.

To be clear though, i think VI is superior overall. The legatos are clearer, the crossfades are better, and i like the expression and tone about equally


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## muziksculp (Jan 6, 2022)

I wonder how the Synchronized-Woodwinds sound compared to the VI-Woodwinds, provided all Impulses/effects are disabled in the Synchroized-Woodwinds version. I'm guessing they should sound very similar to the VI-Woodwinds version.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 6, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm kind of shocked by how much i prefer the VI versions posted here, but i think Ben isn't far off base with his opinions either and I can see how the Synchron version might sound better as an ensemble and the VI may be better as upfront soloists.
> 
> To be clear though, i think VI is superior overall. The legatos are clearer, the crossfades are better, and i like the expression and tone about equally


Yep I think VI legatos are many times better. I didn't like the legatos in synchron woods.


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 6, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder how the Synchronized-Woodwinds sound compared to the VI-Woodwinds, provided all Impulses/effects are disabled in the Synchroized-Woodwinds version. I'm guessing they should sound very similar to the VI-Woodwinds version.


I think they are pretty much the same.


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## muziksculp (Jan 6, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Yep I think VI legatos are many times better. I didn't like the legatos in synchron woods.


Did you hear the Synchronized-Woodwinds ?


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 6, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Did you hear the Synchronized-Woodwinds ?


I've got synchronized woodwinds and I much preferred them to synchron. I think that the synchronized woods are essentially the same as the VI ones, you just need to disable all the reverbs to get the completely dry samples. They also recently added in the pure unlooped legatos into the synchronized version.


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## rgames (Jan 6, 2022)

I agree that the VI versions of the WW have a better legato sound than the Synchron versions.

However, it has always been the case that "wet" libraries have less-convincing legatos on solo instruments (and VI are dry, right?). It's not so much an issue for ensemble sections (e.g. strings or flute a3) but the room sound causes issues for legato transitions on solo instruments, especially WW for some reason and especially for faster lines.

Having spent a few days with Synchron WW there are a few things I've found that help the legato patches:

1. Use only the close mic
2. Reduce the release quite a bit during fast motion (different instruments sound best with different settings but I've found that a value of 10 is pretty good on a lot of instruments)
3. Use only the senza vib patch during fast motion
4. The timbre adjust helps a bit as well during fast motion

I wonder if the Synchron series would benefit from legato-only recordings where the same musicians, instrument positions and mic positions are used but with a bunch of baffles/absorbers to kill most of the room sound. They could be released as a series of "Legato Dry" patches. I bet you'd never hear the difference in terms of long notes as long as you're using a tail reverb but I bet the fast runs would sound a lot better.

rgames


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

I also do have Synchronized Woodwinds, however I didn't have it installed. My apology that I can't do further comparison with Synchronized Woodwinds.

I'm able to set Velocity Xfade all the way down to Niente in VI Pro, which is my preferred setting for all VSL instruments; however it's impossible in Synchron Player. That's one feature that I really miss. I can achieve the same thing via CC11, using one single fader is always better than two.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 6, 2022)

In all of the examples posted, I _much_ prefer the tone of the Synchron instruments.


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## holywilly (Jan 6, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> In all of the examples posted, I _much_ prefer the tone of the Synchron instruments.


So far my favorite woodwinds tone ever and fit nicely in context too.


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## Saxer (Jan 6, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I also do have Synchronized Woodwinds, however I didn't have it installed. My apology that I can't do further comparison with Synchronized Woodwinds.
> 
> I'm able to set Velocity Xfade all the way down to Niente in VI Pro, which is my preferred setting for all VSL instruments; however it's impossible in Synchron Player. That's one feature that I really miss. I can achieve the same thing via CC11, using one single fader is always better than two.


It's possible to add the volume fader (CC11 by default) to CC1 in the Synchron Player. You can also set a % value and a curve. You can set "niente" or "close to niente" that way. It's the first thing I do especially when working with breath controller (which I use as my default CC1 device).


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## smellypants (Jan 7, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> In all of the examples posted, I _much_ prefer the tone of the Synchron instruments.


I couldn't hear anything that made me love one much more than the other... They both sounded great to me 🤷‍♂️


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 7, 2022)

smellypants said:


> I couldn't hear anything that made me love one much more than the other... They both sounded great to me 🤷‍♂️


The examples sound very distinct from each other. Night and day. Synchron’s tone is excellent.


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## smellypants (Jan 7, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The examples sound very distinct from each other.


I agree, I'm referring only to myself having a personal preference to one or the other based on their distinct differences.


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## holywilly (Jan 7, 2022)

Saxer said:


> It's possible to add the volume fader (CC11 by default) to CC1 in the Synchron Player. You can also set a % value and a curve. You can set "niente" or "close to niente" that way. It's the first thing I do especially when working with breath controller (which I use as my default CC1 device).


Right! I actually setting up this way with my new presets. This way I found it’s easier to make Synchron Woodwinds sound more dramatic and expressive. Thanks to bring this up. 

If I recall correctly, I’ve been using @Saxer’s concept on “building ensemble for dimension strings”, all my VSL presets are setup with that concept.


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## richhickey (Jan 7, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> I think they are pretty much the same.





muziksculp said:


> I wonder how the Synchronized-Woodwinds sound compared to the VI-Woodwinds, provided all Impulses/effects are disabled in the Synchroized-Woodwinds version. I'm guessing they should sound very similar to the VI-Woodwinds version.


They don't sound as good. Unfortunately, as with many entries in the Synchronized series, the editors could not leave well enough alone. In the sy-ized WW case there's a collapse of the stereo field (demonstrated elsewhere), a certain compression to the sound, and a resulting reduction in the articulateness of the onsets. I'm not the only one who's gone back to the VI winds, disappointed with Synchronized. 

It's a crying shame VSL couldn't move their fantastic legacy libraries to Synchron Player intact.


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## Noeticus (Jan 7, 2022)

richhickey said:


> They don't sound as good. Unfortunately, as with many entries in the Synchronized series, the editors could not leave well enough alone. In the sy-ized WW case there's a collapse of the stereo field (demonstrated elsewhere), a certain compression to the sound, and a resulting reduction in the articulateness of the onsets. I'm not the only one who's gone back to the VI winds, disappointed with Synchronized.
> 
> It's a crying shame VSL couldn't move their fantastic legacy libraries to Synchron Player intact.


Are you sure it is not intact? I think there are settings that make it sound (almost) identical to the VI version.

I'm not 100% sure.

If there is a difference, I would love for someone to post the before and after to illustrate the issue.


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## Dietz (Jan 7, 2022)

richhickey said:


> They don't sound as good. Unfortunately, as with many entries in the Synchronized series, the editors could not leave well enough alone. In the sy-ized WW case there's a collapse of the stereo field (demonstrated elsewhere), a certain compression to the sound, and a resulting reduction in the articulateness of the onsets. I'm not the only one who's gone back to the VI winds, disappointed with Synchronized.
> 
> It's a crying shame VSL couldn't move their fantastic legacy libraries to Synchron Player intact.


This could be a misunderstanding. The "collapsed stereo field" comes from the simple fact that any sound source gets narrower as its distance from the listener increases. If you don't need the positioning, you can turn it off and use the raw, dry recordings just as you would in Vienna Instruments. The effect is not "baked in".


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 7, 2022)

Noeticus said:


> Are you sure it is not intact? I think there are settings that make it sound identical to the VI version.
> 
> I'm not 100% sure.
> 
> If there is a difference, I would love for someone to post the before and after to illustrate the issue.


This is what I thought as well. To my understanding when you disabled all the reverbs and effects then you end up getting left with the original dry recordings. However, i'm also not 100 percent sure and can't compare as I don't have the VI versions. They may have done some additional editing to the dry samples maybe.


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## Zanshin (Jan 7, 2022)

In any case, Syz WW sounds great.


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## richhickey (Jan 7, 2022)

Dietz said:


> This could be a misunderstanding. The "collapsed stereo field" comes from the simple fact that any sound source gets narrower as its distance from the listener increases. If you don't need the positioning, you can turn it off and use the raw, dry recordings just as you would in Vienna Instruments. The effect is not "baked in".


That's simply not true:

View attachment SizedWWvsVI.mp4


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## rgames (Jan 7, 2022)

Regarding the tone, that's the flip side of having a lot of room sound baked in. The tone sounds better, especially for WW.

Close-mic clarinet, flute, etc. can sound pretty strident and thin. Brass as well. But back away in a nice room and the tone sounds a lot better because you roll off some of the highs in a particular way that I've never been able to fully mimic with any kind of EQ. It just sounds better.

But then the legato transitions sound bad...

Can't win.

rgames


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 7, 2022)

richhickey said:


> That's simply not true:
> 
> View attachment SizedWWvsVI.mp4


Interesting, any chance you could do a comparison like that for the flutes or a higher woodwind instrument. The synchronized one is probably better in regards to the stereo image in this example as arguably it's better to keep the lower end instruments and low frequencies more mono with less stereo spread.


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## Zanshin (Jan 7, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Interesting, any chance you could do a comparison like that for the flutes or a higher woodwind instrument. The synchronized one is probably better in regards to the stereo image in this example as arguably it's better to keep the lower end instruments and low frequencies more mono with less stereo spread.


Yep. My understanding is the stereo image was narrowed to help with placement using the Syz IRs.


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## Ben (Jan 7, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Yep. My understanding is the stereo image was narrowed to help with placement using the Syz IRs.


The stereo field of the SYized Woodwinds was narrowed a little bit in samples, but if you like just insert the Widener plugin as insert and you will get almost the identical sound to the VI version.

For the SYized Single Woodwinds library we used a Power-Pan insert plugin instead to narrow the stereo field - just remove it and you will get the same sound like from the VI version.


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## Zanshin (Jan 7, 2022)

Ben said:


> The stereo field of the SYized Woodwinds was narrowed a little bit in samples, but if you like just insert the Widener plugin as insert and you will get almost the identical sound to the VI version.
> 
> For the SYized Single Woodwinds library we used a Power-Pan insert plugin instead to narrow the stereo field - just remove it and you will get the same sound like from the VI version.


Thank you Ben.

To be clear. I'm happy with the Synchron-ized release, I wouldn't change a thing. The explanation helps explain the difference for those who care though.


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## richhickey (Jan 7, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Interesting, any chance you could do a comparison like that for the flutes or a higher woodwind instrument. The synchronized one is probably better in regards to the stereo image in this example as arguably it's better to keep the lower end instruments and low frequencies more mono with less stereo spread.


I'm not going to spend any more time on this. I and others have repeatedly described the differences only to have to argue with VSL staff and people who don't own both libraries or haven't spent enough time listening to them carefully. 

I don't disagree that a mono source is more useful for IR placement but:

They could have done that only in the IR-selected path and not to the samples themselves, leaving the IR-free path intact. There's a power pan built into Synchron Player after all.
They could have done it in a better-sounding way. In my experience it's often better to simply take one side of the centered stereo silent stage recordings than to narrow via mono-izing or power pan. The phase cancellation of what they've done dulls the sound and renders it less articulate.
Due to this, their obvious goal to move people along to Synchron player will be thwarted where the VIP versions sound better. That is not always the case, as e.g. Synchronized Dimension Strings sound fine, and I much prefer using them in Synchron Player.

A someone with over $14k invested in VSL VI libs I think they've made a hash of moving them to Synchron Player. Some are ok (Syized DS) while others are definitely not (Syized WW, Syized Chamber Strings).


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 7, 2022)

richhickey said:


> I'm not going to spend any more time on this. I and others have repeatedly described the differences only to have to argue with VSL staff and people who don't own both libraries or haven't spent enough time listening to them carefully.
> 
> I don't disagree that a mono source is more useful for IR placement but:
> 
> ...


Not disagreeing with you and I can't really comment or compare the VI version to the synchronized version as I only own synchronized woodwinds and not the VI versions. But yeah maybe it would have been better for them to have used the power pan plugin built into synchron player rather than narrowing the stereo field of the samples themselves. I was just considering the reasons as to why they would have narrowed the stereo field of the dry samples of the synchronized version.


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## muziksculp (Jan 7, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> I was just considering the reasons as to why they would have narrowed the stereo field of the dry samples of the synchronized version.


Maybe someone from VSL can answer this question ?


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## Aitcpiano (Jan 7, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Maybe someone from VSL can answer this question ?


Probably just to narrow it before going into the IRs, for a cleaner mix. However, would probably have been better to give a choice by narrowing the samples using power pan plugin and just keep the original raw dry samples.


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## muziksculp (Jan 7, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Probably just to narrow it before going into the IRs, for a cleaner mix.


That's very likely, since the IRs will change the panorma of the sample anyways, making it wider. But I don't feel that narrowing the stereo field is such a big deal, I think it is very minor, especially when you have multiple instruments playing in a mix, it might even be an advantage.


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## muziksculp (Jan 7, 2022)

Actually, I have the VI version of the Woodwinds, but deleted them, since I have the Synchronized-Woodwinds, and now the Synchron Woodwinds as well. I prefer using the Synchron Player to the VI-Pro player.


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## Ben (Jan 7, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> Probably just to narrow it before going into the IRs, for a cleaner mix. However, would probably have been better to give a choice by narrowing the samples using power pan plugin and just keep the original raw dry samples.


Yes. 
Back then there was no power pan fx included, that's why it was done in samples (if I remember correctly). If you compare it with narrower and wider stereo field the results a pretty much similar after the IR output, but you get way less unwanted movement in the stereo field. 
Like I recommended: just use the Widener plugin, and you will get almost equal results compared to the VI version.


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## muziksculp (Jan 7, 2022)

Hi @Ben

I tried using the Widener Plugin, and it does enhance the stereo image, but imho it's not worth the extra step, since the difference is minor to my ears, but if one needs to hear a wider stereo image, then I agree, it's a good way to do it via the Widener Plugin.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## re-peat (Jan 8, 2022)

Aitcpiano said:


> I was just considering the reasons as to why they would have narrowed the stereo field of the dry samples of the synchronized version.


They might have done it — *if* they have done it, that is (but I don't know, not having the Synchronized WW's) — to address the rather serious (and quite annoying) problem of samples jumping around in the stereo field from one note to the next or, even worse, from one dynamic layer or one round robin to the next, which plagues the original woodwinds to quite a distracting degree.

With instruments recorded the way the original woodwinds were — very, very close —, the slightest change in position of the instrument (even a few centimeters would do it) results immediately in a very noticeable shift in the stereo image, and you can hear that phenomenon all over the original library.

The problem is quite easily solved since these instruments are so dry and need additional spatialization anyway (during which process a wise mixer usually will narrow their image quite a bit), but it is something of an issue, certainly one to be aware of. 
(Rarely discussed though, which I always found strange.)

*Here's an example of the original (non-Synchronized) VI Clarinet playing staccato notes.* (Raw, unprocessed, unedited sound straight out of the VIPro Player.) Notice how, even when repeating the same note (the opening A#2, for example), the instrument simply won't stay put in the same place in the stereo field, some samples appearing much further to the right than they should.

_


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## Vadium (Jan 8, 2022)

richhickey said:


> In the sy-ized WW case there's a collapse of the stereo field


I guess (and I hear it in samples) in the VI-instruments recording used mix of close and mid microphones - it provide wide, rich, and natural stereo sound. But for synchronized version used only close signal (I guess), so any IR and a software stereo imagers aren't replace a real mid microphone pair..


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## Dietz (Jan 8, 2022)

richhickey said:


> That's simply not true:
> 
> View attachment SizedWWvsVI.mp4


I stand corrected and apologize for the error. Just to clarify: I created all the settings for the "Synchronized" releases using the original Vienna Instrument samples. The decision to reduce the stereo width in the case of the woodwinds was made only later on in the production chain, as I just learned.

Sorry!


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## Dietz (Jan 8, 2022)

Vadium said:


> I guess (and I hear it in samples) in the VI-instruments recording used mix of close and mid microphones - it provide wide, rich, and natural stereo sound. But for synchronized version used only close signal (I guess), so any IR aren't replace a real mid microphone pair..


Most Vienna Instruments - especially smaller solo instruments - were recorded by using a single stereo pair of microphones.


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## stargazer (Jan 11, 2022)

I purchased the Standard version. Considering getting the Full lib.
(I have the Full versions on some other Synchron libs, and the ambient/surround mics really add some depth, although I use those quite moderately)

Anybody with the Surround mics wants to share some thoughts or audio files?
How does the legato sound, combining close and ambient mics?


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## holywilly (Jan 12, 2022)

Finally use Synchron Woodwinds in my composition, totally LOVE the tonality and playability of this library, and it blends well with Elite Strings and Synchron Percussions.

The more I use, the more I love the qualities of VSL instruments.

View attachment Comedy_Synchron.mp3


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## dunamisstudio (Jan 12, 2022)

*Downloaded Synchron Woodwinds last night!*


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## muziksculp (Jan 13, 2022)




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## doctoremmet (Jan 13, 2022)




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## clonewar (Jan 13, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



This is a great demo. Interesting that he's not using the Timbre Adjust control (at least it's not shown in the video), but there's a lot of Expression and Vel.XF automation.


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## holywilly (Jan 13, 2022)

clonewar said:


> This is a great demo. Interesting that he's not using the Timbre Adjust control (at least it's not shown in the video), but there's a lot of Expression and Vel.XF automation.


I realized that he did not push the dynamic to the highest fortissimo layer, which has aggressive timbre. Any layers below that sound a lot more smooth and beautiful. 

In my own presets, I limit the CC1 from 0 to 0.83, which I found is the sweet spot for the most of the wind instruments.


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## MelodicAdagio (Jan 13, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Finally use Synchron Woodwinds in my composition, totally LOVE the tonality and playability of this library, and it blends well with Elite Strings and Synchron Percussions.
> 
> The more I use, the more I love the qualities of VSL instruments.
> 
> View attachment Comedy_Synchron.mp3


Very nicely done.


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## Zanshin (Jan 13, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I realized that he did not push the dynamic to the highest fortissimo layer, which has aggressive timbre. Any layers below that sound a lot more smooth and beautiful.
> 
> In my own presets, I limit the CC1 from 0 to 0.83, which I found is the sweet spot for the most of the wind instruments.


Thank you for sharing the tip!


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## holywilly (Jan 13, 2022)

I think it's fun to let the Berlin Woodwinds to play the same part, here are the Berlin vs Synchron woodwinds excerpt from the piece I wrote:

Synchron Woodwinds:
View attachment WW_Synchron.mp3


Berlin Woodwinds:
View attachment WW_Berlin.mp3


There're no good or bad, just that different libraries have their own strength on different genres and types of music.


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## holywilly (Jan 13, 2022)

MelodicAdagio said:


> Very nicely done.


Thank you, I'm having lots of fun using them.


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## Zanshin (Jan 13, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I think it's fun to let the Berlin Woodwinds to play the same part, here are the Berlin vs Synchron woodwinds excerpt from the piece I wrote:
> 
> Synchron Woodwinds:
> View attachment WW_Synchron.mp3
> ...


We need a Syz WW version now too


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## muziksculp (Jan 13, 2022)

@holywilly ,

Thanks for posting the VSL and OT versions of your Woodwinds demo. Both sound very good. 

Did you use the Timbre Adjust in the VSL Synchron Woodwinds demo ?


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## holywilly (Jan 13, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> We need a Syz WW version now too


Unfortunately I don't have Syz WW installed 

@muziksculp , yes I do use Timbre Adjust, I map Timbre Adjust to CC1 along with Dynamic xfade, and carefully adjust the curve behavior under CONTROL tab.

I also attach the presets I made for Synchron Woodwinds. It's not perfect, it just suit my workflow.


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## Zanshin (Jan 13, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Unfortunately I don't have Syz WW installed


Aww. Thank you for posting the comparison. I like both! I'd be hard pressed to choose. Which is good because I only bought BS (and also BSS + character strings), not the whole package.


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## emilio_n (Jan 13, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Finally use Synchron Woodwinds in my composition, totally LOVE the tonality and playability of this library, and it blends well with Elite Strings and Synchron Percussions.
> 
> The more I use, the more I love the qualities of VSL instruments.
> 
> View attachment Comedy_Synchron.mp3


I love it!


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## holywilly (Jan 13, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Aww. Thank you for posting the comparison. I like both! I'd be hard pressed to choose. Which is good because I only bought BS (and also BSS + character strings), not the whole package.


I'll try to do with VI woodwinds, after I finish my cues. The shorts from Synchron Woodwinds just way too good to pass on.

If you listen to my composition from previous post, the strings I'm using is the combination of Elite and Berlin Strings, they just work so well together. Conclusion is, both VSL and OT are worth the investment.


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## Zanshin (Jan 13, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I'll try to do with VI woodwinds, after I finish my cues. The shorts from Synchron Woodwinds just way too good to pass on.
> 
> If you listen to my composition from previous post, the strings I'm using is the combination of Elite and Berlin Strings, they just work so well together. Conclusion is, both VSL and OT are worth the investment.


That'd be great 

I agree, I am very happy with how Berlin and Synchron play together.


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## JF_Composer (Jan 18, 2022)

clonewar said:


> This is a great demo. Interesting that he's not using the Timbre Adjust control (at least it's not shown in the video), but there's a lot of Expression and Vel.XF automation.


Yes, actually I decided not to use the timbre adjust control on that one, I didn't have much time to put it together so I went for what I know best(Expression with TEC Breath Controller+Velocity xf with a fader).
But I use it in my current gig. Subtle but quite effective.

@hollywilly: Yes, I prefer not to go over the top for this kind of piece, maybe in an orchestral context I might go all in!


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## muziksculp (Jan 22, 2022)




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## muziksculp (Jan 23, 2022)

A great tip from the video above, that it's possible to use Pitch Bend for the solo woodwinds performance, as he does for the Clarinet.


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## JF_Composer (Jan 23, 2022)

muziksculp said:


>



I loved the video! Great content and killer music!


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## muziksculp (Jan 28, 2022)




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## holywilly (Jan 28, 2022)

Hopefully the updates with 4 new solo winds arrive in February.


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## muziksculp (Jan 28, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Hopefully the updates with 4 new solo winds arrive in February.


Yes, that would be very nice, and I wonder what the next Synchron Library Release will be, maybe also in Feb. . My wish : Synchron Solo Strings.


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## Robo Rivard (Jan 28, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, that would be very nice, and I wonder what the next Synchron Library Release will be, maybe also in Feb. . My wish : Synchron Solo Strings.


There is a sale going on right now for the original Vienna Choir. My bet is that this library will never get Synchronized (it will only get cheaper). I have spent time with BBO Ganymede and Ymir, and they feel way more playable and natural sounding than the original choir. If VSL can build a comprehensive Synchron Choir with a lot more articulations, I'll be the first in line to get it!


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## daviddln (Jan 29, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, that would be very nice, and I wonder what the next Synchron Library Release will be, maybe also in Feb. . My wish : Synchron Solo Strings.





Robo Rivard said:


> There is a sale going on right now for the original Vienna Choir. My bet is that this library will never get Synchronized (it will only get cheaper). I have spent time with BBO Ganymede and Ymir, and they feel way more playable and natural sounding than the original choir. If VSL can build a comprehensive Synchron Choir with a lot more articulations, I'll be the first in line to get it!


I hope Synchron Solo Strings will come first. The Vienna Choir still sound really good to me whereas VI Solo Strings sound a little bit outdated.


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## Casiquire (Jan 29, 2022)

Robo Rivard said:


> There is a sale going on right now for the original Vienna Choir. My bet is that this library will never get Synchronized (it will only get cheaper). I have spent time with BBO Ganymede and Ymir, and they feel way more playable and natural sounding than the original choir. If VSL can build a comprehensive Synchron Choir with a lot more articulations, I'll be the first in line to get it!


I quite liked Ganymede in the trial i did. If anything I wish it had more character because it's very smooth. But that makes it great for a base choir that you can layer other choirs for whatever special purposes.


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## muziksculp (Feb 1, 2022)




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## DJiLAND (Feb 8, 2022)

Ok, I finally used Synchron Woodwinds for my new project.
In my opinion this is not the library with the best legato.
The legato is sometimes awkward, especially the flute and oboe legato, which feels a little lacking in expressiveness.
I suspect this is due to the vibrato starting too late in the Low-Mid register. This can be natural on long sustain notes, but it usually sounds bad and awkward when playing phrases.
I very strongly hope this will be improved.
But for now, I would be very careful with using Synchron Woodwinds for legato phrases for the flute and oboe solos that stand out. I'd rather use SYNCHRON-ized Woodwinds.

But Cl, Bsn, etc. have very nice tones (yes, legato isn't perfect...but I still want to use it!)
In particular, the bassoon sound is very beautiful and stable, I don't think there are many libraries with these tones.

Although legato isn't pretty, Short notes is better than any library I've ever used.
It can play most of what I want.
Among them, Portato is the killer. Using Portato well, it's very easy to create phrases that come to life as if they were singing!
I really like this so much that I want to write all the phrases in Portato 

Anyway, I really hope that by improving the expressiveness of Legato phrases, it becomes the best library without any shortcomings.
Until then, I'll be humming and shaking my head, playing Portato.


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

I'm not a fan of the Synchron Woodwinds Solo Oboe. It surely lacks rich timbre of a double reed instrument, and sounds like a clarinet trying to sound like an Oboe. 

I tried to use different mic combinations, eq, legato blur, ..etc. to like this Oboe, but at the end, this frog is still a frog, no matter how much I try to make him look like a Prince.

Seriously, did the VSL developers think this Oboe sounds good, or even close to a real oboe ? What mics did they use that basically filtered all the rich harmonics that the Oboe player was producing ?

I hope their additional Oboe sounds much better.

Sorry VSL, I can only praise you when you do it right, this one is a big screw up. 👎


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## Jackdnp121 (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm not a fan of the Synchron Woodwinds Solo Oboe. It surely lacks rich timbre of a double reed instrument, and sounds like a clarinet trying to sound like an Oboe.
> 
> I tried to use different mic combinations, eq, legato blur, ..etc. to like this Oboe, but at the end, this frog is still a frog, no matter how much I try to make him look like a Prince.
> 
> ...


Synchron woodwind is a great library … the shorts are amazing ( the best ) … amazing sound too 

However …. 

as a fan of VSL … i Think it is necessary to give important customer feedback 

which is .. please only release the library only when it is finish … 

most customer dont need it in a hurry … but finished .. and well tested … 

Thank you


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

Jackdnp121 said:


> Synchron woodwind is a great library … the shorts are amazing ( the best ) … amazing sound too
> 
> However ….
> 
> ...


I'm also a big fan of VSL libraries. But not the Synchron Woodwinds Oboe Legato. 

What are your thoughts about it ?


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## Jackdnp121 (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm also a big fan of VSL libraries. But not the Synchron Woodwinds Oboe Legato.
> 
> What are your thoughts about it ?


I returned the library … waiting for the “full” release …

but from what I can remember .. the sound of every individual instrument was pretty good ...

however the key switch was playing trick on my studio one sound variation though … especially bassoon sounded very strange 

not sure if they fixed it or not … coz I returned the library …


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## DJiLAND (Feb 22, 2022)

Perhaps..Synchron Woodwinds Pro?


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

I would like to hear more feedback from VSL Synchron Woodwinds users about the Solo Oboe. 

If you own this library, please post your feedback about the Solo Oboe. 

Thanks.


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## dcoscina (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> As I mentioned they can sound pretty dry. Did you try some of the preset mixes to see how dry you can get them ? Not just using the Close/Solo Mics ?
> 
> Here is a fast test I did using the Sychron Elite Strings using the 'Close to Surround' mix Preset. Playing VLNS.1 Pizz. Not dry enough ?
> 
> ...


I think they sound terrific personally


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> I think they sound terrific personally


Deleted. I thought you were referring to the Solo Oboe.


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

@dcoscina ,

Sorry about my post, I thought you were referring to the Solo Oboe.


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## daviddln (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I would like to hear more feedback from VSL Synchron Woodwinds users about the Solo Oboe.
> 
> If you own this library, please post your feedback about the Solo Oboe.
> 
> Thanks.


I have no problem with the Solo Oboe. It sounds really good to me. The only thing I don't really like about Synchron Woodwinds is the Solo Flute 1 legato. It is not as good as the VI Flute 1 but everything else is great.


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

daviddln said:


> I have no problem with the Solo Oboe. It sounds really good to me.


Seriously ? You like the Solo Oboe ? 

We surely have very different tastes/perspectives on what a good Solo Oboe sounds like.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Seriously ? You like the Solo Oboe ?
> 
> We surely have very different tastes/perspectives on what a good Solo Oboe sounds like.


Why are you asking for opinions if your response is going to be basically disbelief? Do you only want opinions that confirm your viewpoint?


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Why are you asking for opinions if your response is going to be basically disbelief? Do you only want opinions that confirm your viewpoint?


No, just voicing my opinion to discuss things further on this detail. I respect all the opinions, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss them further.


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

OH.. and I'm all ears for some great sounding Sychron Woodwinds Solo Oboe audio examples. Please delight my ears.


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## holywilly (Feb 22, 2022)

Synchron Woodwinds in the final production, they actually works pretty well in the mix.

View attachment AMA_EP12_送葬_F_100_W_MIX_0222.mp3


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## Casiquire (Feb 22, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Synchron Woodwinds in the final production, they actually works pretty well in the mix.
> 
> View attachment AMA_EP12_送葬_F_100_W_MIX_0222.mp3


At the risk of being called an apologist for a library series i have zero interest or investment in, that sounds pretty dang good to me


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Synchron Woodwinds in the final production, they actually works pretty well in the mix.
> 
> View attachment AMA_EP12_送葬_F_100_W_MIX_0222.mp3


Great track. Thanks for sharing.

The Woodwinds sound nice in the mix, but I don't hear an exposed solo Oboe in this type of arrangement, so for this scenario Synchron Woodwinds sound very good. But imho. not when you have a solo Oboe playing a solo phrase. It just doesn't have the timbre richness, and detail. Just my personal and very humble opinion.

Oh... what strings did you use in this track ? they sound great.


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## holywilly (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Great track. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> The Woodwinds sound nice in the mix, but I don't hear an exposed solo Oboe in this type of arrangement, so for this scenario Synchron Woodwinds sound very good. But imho. not when you have a solo Oboe playing a solo phrase. It just doesn't have the timbre richness, and detail. Just my personal and very humble opinion.
> 
> Oh... what strings did you use in this track ? they sound great.


It's real strings recording, both solo and ensemble.

I have Berlin, Synchron and VI Woodwinds in my template, they are used in different types of genres and arrangements. One library can't rule them all, like I have 5 strings set in my template.


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## Casiquire (Feb 22, 2022)

holywilly said:


> It's real strings recording, both solo and ensemble.
> 
> I have Berlin, Synchron and VI Woodwinds in my template, they are used in different types of genres and arrangements. One library can't rule them all, like I have 5 strings set in my template.


I had a feeling it might be live strings just because of the soft releases. Actually if i had anything constructive to say, it would be to maybe use volume automation to bring out those tail ends just a little more because they sound so good, that's where a lot of the magic happens, and they get a little buried in a mix like this. You did a remarkable job blending it into a cohesive single performance


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## dcoscina (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> @dcoscina ,
> 
> Sorry about my post, I thought you were referring to the Solo Oboe.


Sorry no just the library in general. I will spend some time with it.


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## holywilly (Feb 22, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I had a feeling it might be live strings just because of the soft releases. Actually if i had anything constructive to say, it would be to maybe use volume automation to bring out those tail ends just a little more because they sound so good, that's where a lot of the magic happens, and they get a little buried in a mix like this. You did a remarkable job blending it into a cohesive single performance


That's a good suggestion, I'll let my mixing engineer know. 

It's good to have people to give productive suggestion to the music, I have lots of rooms to improve in the next projects.


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## Casiquire (Feb 22, 2022)

holywilly said:


> That's a good suggestion, I'll let my mixing engineer know.
> 
> It's good to have people to give productive suggestion to the music, I have lots of rooms to improve in the next projects.


I have zero comments for improvement on the composition and performances, and even the engineering is great all around. In fact if it was mixed by a good professional you trust, throw what i say it the window. That was my first impression after one listen.

Is this part of a larger work?


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I had a feeling it might be live strings just because of the soft releases


Same impression here when I heard the strings. They were too good to be samples.


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## holywilly (Feb 22, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I have zero comments for improvement on the composition and performances, and even the engineering is great all around. In fact if it was mixed by a good professional you trust, throw what i say it the window. That was my first impression after one listen.
> 
> Is this part of a larger work?


Well, yeah.

We wrote 120+ cues for just one TV series, 12 episodes. Each episode requires unique genre of music, it was like writing 12 movies. And the mixing engineer only had a week to mix, that was quite intensive for all of us.  

Back to the topic, Synchron Woodwinds definitely have unique timbre, and it took me quite some times to setup to suit my workflow. I wouldn't use SW for exposed solo instruments, however they fit perfectly when layering with other instruments. Somehow I wish the new upcoming solo instruments (or future update) will allow us to use them for exposed solo passages.


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## DJiLAND (Feb 22, 2022)

I would recommend removing the Plate Reverb from the Reverb Bus when using Synchron Woodwinds' Oboe presets.
It strengthens the resonance too much.
Removing it and using a separate reverb produced better results.
(Or adjust the reverb bus. A reverb EQ will help)

SyWw Oboe1 Classic Room Mix (Naked)
View attachment SysOb1_Messiah_Naked.mp3


SyWw Oboe1 Classic Room Mix (Processed)
- Decrease Spot Microphone Volume, EQ, Dynamic EQ for Resonance Control, Removed the Plate Reverb of the built-in reverb bus and replaced it with a 3rd party reverb
View attachment SysOb1_Messiah_Processed.mp3


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## holywilly (Feb 22, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> I would recommend removing the Plate Reverb from the Reverb Bus when using Synchron Woodwinds' Oboe presets.
> It strengthens the resonance too much.
> Removing it and using a separate reverb produced better results.
> (Or adjust the reverb bus. A reverb EQ will help)
> ...


Are you using the Trill articulation for the end phrase (11 second)?


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## DJiLAND (Feb 22, 2022)

holywilly said:


> Are you using the Trill articulation for the end phrase (11 second)?


Yes


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## holywilly (Feb 22, 2022)

DJiLAND said:


> Yes


I'm liking that short trill. Unfortunately Synchron Player does not allow us to play "Performance Trill" like VI Pro.

How did you achieve that short trill? any tips?


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

Here is a short audio clip of *CineWoodwinds Core : Legato Oboe 1*. 

Note how much richer, and more textured the timbre of the Oboe sounds here, more like a real oboe sounds. 

View attachment CineWoodwinds Oboe Legato .mp3


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## DJiLAND (Feb 22, 2022)

holywilly said:


> I'm liking that short trill. Unfortunately Synchron Player does not allow us to play "Performance Trill" like VI Pro.
> 
> How did you achieve that short trill? any tips?


Well, I don't have any other tips. I just did the trills. 
And just about using Vel.FX and Timbre Adjust to match the tone and dynamics.
If you want more flexible usage, maybe Stretch or Wave Start Offset can help.


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## ip20 (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Here is a short audio clip of *CineWoodwinds Core : Legato Oboe 1*.
> 
> Note how much richer, and more textured the timbre of the Oboe sounds here, more like a real oboe sounds.
> 
> View attachment CineWoodwinds Oboe Legato .mp3



This sounds much better. Is that your favorite solo oboe sample? The VSL one sounds so flat and bland, especially compared to their other ones (love the other VSL woodwinds but not the oboe).


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## muziksculp (Feb 22, 2022)

ip20 said:


> This sounds much better. Is that your favorite solo oboe sample? The VSL one sounds so flat and bland, especially compared to their other ones (love the other VSL woodwinds but not the oboe).


Yes, it sure does to my ears. Thanks for confirming. 

It is one of my favorite choices for Solo Oboe, I wouldn't rush to saying it's my #1 choice, I'm still looking for #1, and I'm not sure I have found it yet.  

I will post more feedback on my favorite Solo Oboe/s as I get to use more of my woodwinds libraries.


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## Marcus Millfield (Feb 22, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Here is a short audio clip of *CineWoodwinds Core : Legato Oboe 1*.
> 
> Note how much richer, and more textured the timbre of the Oboe sounds here, more like a real oboe sounds.
> 
> View attachment CineWoodwinds Oboe Legato .mp3



Oh wow, that is night and day! So much more body in this sample. As you said, that typical oboe timbre is much more emphasized than the Sy/SyZ oboes. I do like the Oboe d'Amore from the VI series.

I have to say I'm still fighting a bit with the Sy WW and have to agree with some of you that it sounds too flat/too mixed maybe for the instruments to really stand out when soloing. Now I know the Sy libraries are supposed to blend and play nice with eachother, but especially with the WW it's hard to break from the blend/mix. Maybe that's why I'm preferring the dryer libs more.


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## holywilly (Feb 22, 2022)

@muziksculp have you tried Woodwinds Soloists from Orchestral Tools?

I wouldn't say oboe from Synchron Woodwinds sounds flat or dead, it just having different timbre. I remember Paul said that those woodwinds are captured as how they performance/record in Synchron Stage, my guess the best use for Synchron Woodwinds is to blend within the music or sections.

Just like strings libraries, we don't have enough Woodwinds libraries yet.


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## DJiLAND (Feb 22, 2022)

As for Oboe, Ironically, I think Synchronized is more like a tone recorded on Synchron Stage than Synchron Woodwinds. I compared the Woodwinds Stem from a relatively recent recording of Synchron Stage(not very recent), and the Synchronized Oboe1 is actually pretty close.
Of course, different tones may come out depending on recording and miking.
Anyway, I really love Synchronized Woodwinds.


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## ptram (Feb 23, 2022)

This is the Oboe 1 without additional final reverb (but including the reverb added by VSL in the preset):

View attachment Synchron-Oboe1-all_mics_reverb.mp3



This is pure, with only the mics:

View attachment Synchron-Oboe1-all_mics.mp3


This is only Close+Mid mics:

View attachment Synchron-Oboe1-close_mid.mp3


And this is the Close mic only:

View attachment Synchron-Oboe1-close.mp3


Paolo


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2022)

Are there any examples of the oboe playing with closer mics?


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## muziksculp (Feb 23, 2022)

holywilly said:


> @muziksculp have you tried Woodwinds Soloists from Orchestral Tools?


Hi @holywilly ,

Yes I have, but haven't used them much, so I will need to revisit them to get to know them better. I do recall that my first impression was positive. 



holywilly said:


> I remember Paul said that those woodwinds are captured as how they performance/record in Synchron Stage, my guess the best use for Synchron Woodwinds is to blend within the music or sections.


That's what I think they are good for as well, rather than for solo performances. 

I wonder how the upcoming additional woodwinds they will be releasing sound, compared to the currently included ones. I'm not expecting a huge difference though. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## ptram (Feb 23, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Are there any examples of the oboe playing with closer mics?


I fear I added them just a bit after you asked the question. You can find my examples in the message above yours.

Paolo


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## axb312 (Feb 23, 2022)

ptram said:


> This is the Oboe 1 without additional final reverb (but including the reverb added by VSL in the preset):
> 
> View attachment 71259
> 
> ...


This sounds like dry samples going through a convolution reverb...


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2022)

ptram said:


> I fear I added them just a bit after you asked the question. You can find my examples in the message above yours.
> 
> Paolo


Awesome, thanks! That still sounds really wet. I'm surprised there's no way to really hear the detail


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## muziksculp (Feb 23, 2022)

@ptram ,

The Close Mic Solo Oboe you posted sounds like it's being played in an adjacent stage, with the door left open to capture it from a hallway.


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## ptram (Feb 23, 2022)

axb312 said:


> This sounds like dry samples going through a convolution reverb...


Isn't it the other way round? A dry signal going through a convolution reverb should sound like a mix of close and ambient mics?

Paolo


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## axb312 (Feb 23, 2022)

ptram said:


> Isn't it the other way round? A dry signal going through a convolution reverb should sound like a mix of close and ambient mics?
> 
> Paolo


It sounds like it's going through reverb. Cloaked somehow. A feeling I got with Chris Hein's woodwinds as well...


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## ptram (Feb 23, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> The Close Mic Solo Oboe you posted sounds like it's being played in an adjacent stage, with the door left open to capture it from a hallway.


I would say it sounds like a soloist recorded in the middle of a huge hall. Unless you use contact microphones, you get some of the hall with the close sound.

Twenty years accusing them of not sounding in their natural environment, and now complaining for the ambient sound! 

Paolo


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## muziksculp (Feb 23, 2022)

ptram said:


> Twenty years accusing them of not sounding in their natural environment, and now complaining for the ambient sound!


LOL ... But using close mics should sound very different. 

My CineWoodwinds Solo Oboe 1 was recorded in the Sony Stage, which has wonderful acoustics, I used the close and room mics, and it sounds so upfront, and alive, with a lot of the complex timbre of the Oboe audible in the samples. I wish I could say the same about the Synchron Stage Solo Oboe.


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2022)

ptram said:


> I fear I added them just a bit after you asked the question. You can find my examples in the message above yours.
> 
> Paolo


I just realized that example still uses reverb though. I wonder what JUST the close mic sounds like, because with the reverb on, it sounds like it was recorded in an airplane hangar.


axb312 said:


> This sounds like dry samples going through a convolution reverb...


See above!


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## Hadrondrift (Feb 23, 2022)

axb312 said:


> This sounds like dry samples going through a convolution reverb...


Just for clarification: The examples of ptram are not dry, but with the algorithmic reverb of VSL added. If you switch that off, the close mics actually sound quite dry.

Here only dry close mics, no reverb, please ignore the glitch at start, it is my fault:

View attachment Oboe_dry_mic.mp3


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> LOL ... But using close mics should sound very different.
> 
> My CineWoodwinds Solo Oboe 1 was recorded in the Sony Stage, which has wonderful acoustics, I used the close and room mics, and it sounds so upfront, and alive, with a lot of the complex timbre of the Oboe audible in the samples. I wish I could say the same about the Synchron Stage Solo Oboe.


Agreed, Cinewinds has a really great sound.

Here's a very quick side-by-side with BWW and the close-mic-only example posted above. This is BWW Revive, which was criticized for being too wet and not detailed enough lol. You can hear every key, you can hear the breath in the tube, you can hear the spit in it. It's the close mics plus a bit of the ORTF and it's a really beautiful detailed sound.

Granted it isn't a totally fair comparison, since the original example _does _use additional reverb, and it got resampled along the way and lost some quality. But I didn't save my session so, here we are.

View attachment bucket-and-a-mop-for-SWW.mp3


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## Casiquire (Feb 23, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> Just for clarification: The examples of ptram are not dry, but with the algorithmic reverb of VSL added. If you switch that off, the close mics actually sound quite dry.
> 
> Here only dry mics, no reverb, please ignore the glitch at start, it is my fault:
> 
> View attachment Oboe_dry_mic.mp3


Much better! I figured there had to be a way to get some detail out of SWW. I'm still not sure about the tone though.


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## Hadrondrift (Feb 23, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I'm still not sure about the tone though.


I am. I don't like it  But I do like the tone of the other instruments, clarinet etc. The solo oboe 1 of Synchron WW is just not exactly a gem of this library in my opinion, especially if exposed.

When I got the library, I tried my hand at the Adagio of Mozart's KV 388, painting by numbers, so to speak (Oboes, clarinets, bassoons and synchron horns only):

View attachment KV_388_Adagio_SyWW.mp3


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## ptram (Feb 23, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> The examples of ptram are not dry, but with the algorithmic reverb of VSL added


There is for sure some reverb added, but I don't think it's the internal VSL one. I think it is probably Dorico still routing the signal to its reverb, even if it is deactivated.

I can replicate the dry sound by using the standalone Synchron Player. Sorry for that. I'll try to remake the examples, as soon as I understand where that reverb is coming from.






EDIT: Routing problem with Dorico solved. Maybe some outdated data in my old playback template.


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## muziksculp (Feb 23, 2022)

OK, I tried to get the Synchron WW Solo Oboe 1 Legato to sound a bit better, using the Close and Mid Mics only and some sprinkle of Muziksculp DSP custom machining to improve the timbre, and a slight bit of TC Electronics VSS3 reverb. 

I'm still not a big fan of the Solo Oboe 1. But here you go, What do you think ?

View attachment VSL Sunch WW Solo Oboe 1 Edit3.mp3


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## Jack Weaver (Feb 23, 2022)

I think they better fix it. 

.


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## ptram (Feb 23, 2022)

I've fixed the examples in message #737. I had to redo them in Logic, since Dorico+VEP seem to have some routing issue (or I messed things somewhere).

Even the Close mic does contain some hint of the hall, but it seems to me to be dry enough to serve as a very focused soloist.

Paolo


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## Hadrondrift (Feb 24, 2022)

I also hear a very slight reverb component in the close mics, but - like you ptram - I think this is rather negligible. What sometimes bothers me are the noisy blowing start sounds ("Anblasgeräusche" in German, can't find an proper English word), which are very prominent in the quietest velocity layer. If required, they can be removed without any problems by setting a sample start offset, though.

Apropos velocity layers: Somehow this information doesn't seem to be officially available or I can't find it. But the number of layers is possibly also articulation dependent, therefore a bit tricky to list them all. Anyway, I made a list of layers for the legato articulations:

Piccolo:
v1: 000-081
v2: 082-127

Flute/a3, Alto flute, Oboe/a3, English Horn, Bassoon/a3, Contrabassoon, Clarinets a3, Tutti:
v1: 000-041
v2: 042-101
v3: 102-127

Clarinet, Bass Clarinet:
v1: 000-041
v2: 042-081
v3: 082-101
v4: 102-127

They often have a _very_ different sound quality/timbre, which makes it clearer to me why crossfades through these layers might really not be such a good idea to deal with this library. I set a start velocity layer based on the table and then create dynamics only with Timbre Adjust and Expression (CC 11). For this, I use the "Velocity" presets (neither "VelXF sus - MOD" nor "VelXF -MOD").


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## muziksculp (Feb 24, 2022)

holywilly said:


> @muziksculp have you tried Woodwinds Soloists from Orchestral Tools?


Yes, I did, and I'm not a fan of their Oboe.


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## Zanshin (Feb 24, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yes, I did, and I'm not a fan of their Oboe.


I seem to remember the Spitfire SO oboe sounding a bit crap too. I can't remember what the Spitifire Studio oboe is like.

I think the all the Syz/VI WW oboe family instruments are good to great (oboe d'amore, and hecklephone are very good IMO).


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## ptram (Feb 24, 2022)

Hadrondrift said:


> I set a start velocity layer based on the table and then create dynamics only with Timbre Adjust and Expresion (CC 11)


I deal with this issue case by case. If the xfade point is masked, it's fine for me to use CC1. If it is too obvious, I see which other ways to deal with dynamics I have in that point, trying to minimize the time spent on the xfade point.

Paolo


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## muziksculp (Feb 27, 2022)

Listen to what a great Oboe performance, and timbre is like, then compare it with what VSL Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 delivers. Sorry, there is no comparison.


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## Robo Rivard (Feb 27, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Listen to what a great Oboe performance, and timbre is like, then compare it with what VSL Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 delivers. Sorry, there is no comparison.



Yes, I would kill for that oboe.


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## Zanshin (Feb 27, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Listen to what a great Oboe performance, and timbre is like, then compare it with what VSL Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 delivers. Sorry, there is no comparison.



Is there a sampled oboe that you like?


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## muziksculp (Feb 27, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Is there a sampled oboe that you like?


The CineSamples : CineWoodwinds Oboes (1 & 2) are currently my favorite. They are not perfect, but imho. the best ones I have used so far.

I'm looking forward to the version 2 of their CineWoodwinds (Core and Pro) Libraries.


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## ansthenia (Feb 27, 2022)

I know that for Synchron Strings Pro, Elite Strings and the solo instruments in Synchron Brass, VSL adopted the sampling technique of editing the notes out of performances, rather than just have the players play an individual note, the same method that PerformanceSamples uses, among others. However, I don't think VSL bothered to do it that way for Synchron Winds? You could hear the difference it made for SynPro/Elite and the solo brass but I'm not feeling it here, to my ears the samples sound less flowing and rather static in the vein of the original Synchron Strings. Does anyone know for sure?


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## muziksculp (Feb 27, 2022)

ansthenia said:


> I know that for Synchron Strings Pro, Elite Strings and the solo instruments in Synchron Brass, VSL adopted the sampling technique of editing the notes out of performances, rather than just have the players play an individual note, the same method that PerformanceSamples uses, among others. However, I don't think VSL bothered to do it that way for Synchron Winds? You could hear the difference it made for SynPro/Elite and the solo brass but I'm not feeling it here, to my ears the samples sound less flowing and rather static in the vein of the original Synchron Strings. Does anyone know for sure?


I don't know how they went about sampling their Synchron Woodwinds Solo Instruments, but surely didn't capture the rich timbre of a Solo Oboe. That's just a matter of using the right mics, and the engineering that's related to it. We are not even discussing capturing an actual performance to make it more alive, but sadly the timbre of the Oboe they captured is horrible.


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## Robert_G (Feb 27, 2022)

As much as I do like the Synchron Woodwinds, I'm struggling with the Solo Oboe. I'm hoping VSL is taking the feedback here seriously and therefore taking a good hard look at the Solo Oboe 2 before they release it.


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## muziksculp (Feb 27, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> As much as I do like the Synchron Woodwinds, I'm struggling with the Solo Oboe. I'm hoping VSL is taking the feedback here seriously and therefore taking a good hard look at the Solo Oboe 2 before they release it.


I'm cautiously optimistic that VSL will take note of their super lame sounding Solo Oboe 1, and try to not repeat the same techniques used to record it when working on Solo Oboe 2.

I also hope they will consider re-recording Solo Oboe 1, I really can't believe they approved it.

If VSL is not taking note of this, I hope @Ben is, and will be informing them about it. (Thanks Ben).


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## Robo Rivard (Feb 27, 2022)

I feel like only a second volume of "OT Miroire" would give us such a timbre for the oboe, and other woodwind instruments.


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## Zanshin (Feb 27, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I'm cautiously optimistic that VSL will take note of their super lame sounding Solo Oboe 1, and try to not repeat the same techniques used to record it when working on Solo Oboe 2.


I haven't really used Synchron WW in anger yet as I'm working on smaller scale stuff lately (like wind quintet with chamber strings scale). I tried using the Synchron Oboe in place of the Synchron-ized Oboe in my work-in-progress, and it felt pretty limp, not agile, and yes @muziksculp the timbre is not mind-blowing. I was listening to some walkthroughs of the CineWinds Oboe, it didn't inspire me either haha. So different strokes I guess. But yeah I do hope the the second instruments get a lot of attention.



Robo Rivard said:


> I feel like only a second volume of "OT Miroire" would give us such a timbre for the oboe, and other woodwind instruments.


I don't understand. You mean like OT recording modern woodwinds? I think they might have done that already  I do want to pick up Miroire at some point but I just went back and listened to the instrument demos for the baroque oboes to see what what you mean, and while good, I don't think they could touch the real sample @muziksculp posted either.


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## muziksculp (Feb 27, 2022)

Robo Rivard said:


> I feel like only a second volume of "OT Miroire" would give us such a timbre for the oboe, and other woodwind instruments.


Not going to hold my breath for that to happen. The OT Miroire is another failure to capture the sound/timbre of a Baroque Oboe.


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## muziksculp (Feb 27, 2022)

For the time being, my favorite Solo Oboes in sample libraries are :

CineSamples : CineWoodwinds Oboe1 & 2.
Spitfire Audio : BBCSO Pro Oboe. (Perf. Legato)


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## Zanshin (Feb 27, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> For the time being, my favorite Solo Oboes in sample libraries are :
> 
> CineSamples : CineWoodwinds Oboe1 & 2.
> Spitfire Audio : BBCSO Pro Oboe. (Perf. Legato)


I haven't had BBCSO Pro installed in so long I forget what a lot of it sounds like haha. I keep meaning to make a vintage mic only install of it, but uh, I guess it's not that pressing for me.

For all WW my true love is the Synchron-ized/VI WWs. Combined with MIR Pro I can use them in just about any situation/setup and they always inspire me. I like Infinite WW too, just not as much.

I feel like Synchron WW will come alive for me for faster pace epic stuff. I'm just not in that head space at the moment.


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## Zedcars (Feb 28, 2022)

Hello!

I have been out of the loop for a couple of months and was wondering if I’ve missed the Synchron Woodwinds update that was promised. Have the 2nd WW instruments been released yet? Any news of when they will materialise @Ben ?

Thank you.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 28, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have been out of the loop for a couple of months and was wondering if I’ve missed the Synchron Woodwinds update that was promised. Have the 2nd WW instruments been released yet? Any news of when they will materialise @Ben ?
> 
> Thank you.


They have not.


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## doctoremmet (Feb 28, 2022)

They were announced for early 2022, so I gather this means Q1, but I don’t think I’ve actually seen any dates or projections mentioned to be honest.


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## Zedcars (Feb 28, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> They have not.


I suppose the fact that they are seemingly taking their time is a good thing as it hopefully means it will be as good as they can make it. Of course, I’m not privy to their internal schedule but my impression on their previous statements was that the update would arrive early this year. I had assumed that meant January. Perhaps I was being too optimistic. Let’s hope it will be worth the wait.


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## smellypants (Feb 28, 2022)

Paul expects them to release in March... Mentioned on VSL forum


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## muziksculp (Feb 28, 2022)

smellypants said:


> Paul expects them to release in March... Mentioned on VSL forum


March begins tomorrow, let's see if tomorrow is the release day.


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## ansthenia (Feb 28, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I don't know how they went about sampling their Synchron Woodwinds Solo Instruments, but surely didn't capture the rich timbre of a Solo Oboe. That's just a matter of using the right mics, and the engineering that's related to it. We are not even discussing capturing an actual performance to make it more alive, but sadly the timbre of the Oboe they captured is horrible.


I'm aware of that. I was not questioning their sampling technique in response to your problem with the oboe, that's irrelevant to me, I was bringing up my own concerns irrespective of yours. This is the Synchron Woodwinds thread, not your oboe thread.


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## muziksculp (Mar 1, 2022)

I was hoping to see the additional Synchron Woodwind Solos released today, since we are in March. But that hasn't happened, and they have just extended their BBO sale.

VSL Synchron Solo Strings, or anything new, and exciting would have been nice.


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## Zedcars (Mar 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I was hoping to see the additional Synchron Woodwind Solos released today, since we are in March. But that hasn't happened, and they have just extended their BBO sale.
> 
> VSL Synchron Solo Strings, or anything new, and exciting would have been nice.


I think you need to lower your expectations somewhat. That way you will be disappointed less frequently, and when something nice is released you will still be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## muziksculp (Mar 1, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> I think you need to lower your expectations somewhat.


LOL... It's already lowered.


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## wcreed51 (Mar 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I was hoping to see the additional Synchron Woodwind Solos released today, since we are in March. But that hasn't happened, and they have just extended their BBO sale.
> 
> VSL Synchron Solo Strings, or anything new, and exciting would have been nice.


Yes, I was hoping for something today too! Like Con Sordino Elite stings


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## Geomir (Mar 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I was hoping to see the additional Synchron Woodwind Solos released today, since we are in March. But that hasn't happened, and they have just extended their BBO sale.
> 
> VSL Synchron Solo Strings, or anything new, and exciting would have been nice.


LOL if you ever get hired to be the Head of library production for VSL... 

... POOR THEM! 

You will force them to work 20 hours per day and produce a new library ever week!


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## muziksculp (Mar 1, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> Yes, I was hoping for something today too! Like Con Sordino Elite stings


Con Sordino Elite Strings would be awesome. What made you think they will be releasing that ? 

Sadly, my expectations are low at this time.


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## muziksculp (Mar 1, 2022)

Geomir said:


> LOL if you ever get hired to be the Head of library production for VSL...
> 
> ... POOR THEM!
> 
> You will force them to work 20 hours per day and produce a new library ever week!


I will begin by firing the person who recorded the Solo Oboe in Synchron Woodwinds, then put them to work 24/7 on developing the best strings libraries money can buy, then same with brass, and woodwinds, ...etc.

hehe, I don't think you want Muziksculp to be the head of VSL library development. I'm ruthless.


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## Ben (Mar 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I will begin by firing the person who recorded the Solo Oboe in Synchron Woodwinds, then put them to work 24/7 on developing the best strings libraries money can buy, then same with brass, and woodwinds, ...etc.
> 
> hehe, I don't think you want Muziksculp to be the head of VSL library development. I'm ruthless.


I'm glad that this is not the case. I would have quit the job immediately


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## wcreed51 (Mar 2, 2022)

I guess Con Sordino for SY Strings Pro would be more likely, but I can always hope!


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## Zanshin (Mar 2, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> I guess Con Sordino for SY Strings Pro would be more likely, but I can always hope!


I'd be happy with mutes for either


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## prodigalson (Mar 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> I'm glad that this is not the case. I would have quit the job immediately


You would need to change the company name to “Vienna Strings Library” and immediately cease selling anything that is not a string instrument


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## ShidoStrife (Mar 3, 2022)

Hi everyone, sorry I couldn't read all 40 pages, but from the recent conversations I take it that for exposed solos or use outside the orchestra, the Synchron-ized Woodwinds would be a better choice? But does it still blend well enough out of the box with the rest of the Synchron orchestra? I already have Orion for the sections.

Currently thinking if I should utilize the 2+1 promo. My plan is to buy some VI woodwinds now and later upgrade those to the full Synchron-ized Woodwinds OR upgrade Orion to full Synchron Woodwinds, but not both.


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## Ben (Mar 3, 2022)

ShidoStrife said:


> Hi everyone, sorry I couldn't read all 40 pages, but from the recent conversations I take it that for exposed solos or use outside the orchestra, the Synchron-ized Woodwinds would be a better choice? But does it still blend well enough out of the box with the rest of the Synchron orchestra? I already have Orion for the sections.
> 
> Currently thinking if I should utilize the 2+1 promo. My plan is to buy some VI woodwinds now and later upgrade those to the full Synchron-ized Woodwinds OR upgrade Orion to full Synchron Woodwinds, but not both.


Hm, imo it highly depends on your taste / music / use-case.
Yes, the SYized Woodwinds blend well with the Synchron libraries, but not to the same degree as the Synchron Woodwinds will do. I'm happy to have access to both, so I can choose the one best suited to the project.

I don't think that you can go wrong with either, but if your music uses woodwinds mainly as solo instruments, I would recommend getting the SYized WW, if it's mostly embedded in an orchestral context, go for the SY Woodwinds.


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## Ben (Mar 3, 2022)

Btw, make sure you have ~50GB of free space available on your SSD if you own the Synchron Woodwinds


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## DJiLAND (Mar 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> Btw, make sure you have ~50GB of free space available on your SSD if you own the Synchron Woodwinds


I don't have...
There was obviously free space, but when I bought the Sy Strings Pro Full, Strings FX Full and the BBO bundle, it disappeared.


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## muziksculp (Mar 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> Btw, make sure you have ~50GB of free space available on your SSD if you own the Synchron Woodwinds


I hope those additional ~50GB contain an awesome sounding, very detailed and rich timbre Solo Oboe 2. I wouldn't mind a Solo Oboe 3 as well, since I won't be using Oboe 1 that much.


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## doctoremmet (Mar 3, 2022)

Jesus. I had ALMOST forgotten you don’t like Oboe 1. Thanks for clearing that up in this totally entitlement-free unannoying post. Somebody please buy this kid an ice cream?


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## muziksculp (Mar 3, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Jesus. I had ALMOST forgotten you don’t like Oboe 1. Thanks for clearing that up in this totally entitlement-free unannoying post. Somebody please buy this kid an ice cream?


Haha .. Yup, I'm not a fan of the Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 (French Oboe), by the way, I really like the Synchron-ized Woodwinds Oboe 1 (French Oboe). It's a Day, and Night difference between this one, and the Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 (French Oboe).


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## ShidoStrife (Mar 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> Hm, imo it highly depends on your taste / music / use-case.
> Yes, the SYized Woodwinds blend well with the Synchron libraries, but not to the same degree as the Synchron Woodwinds will do. I'm happy to have access to both, so I can choose the one best suited to the project.
> 
> I don't think that you can go wrong with either, but if your music uses woodwinds mainly as solo instruments, I would recommend getting the SYized WW, if it's mostly embedded in an orchestral context, go for the SY Woodwinds.


thank you for your insight Ben! Really appreciate it. I think I'll go with SYized for now as I write in other styles much more than orchestra


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## holywilly (Mar 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> Btw, make sure you have ~50GB of free space available on your SSD if you own the Synchron Woodwinds


Bring it on!


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## Geomir (Mar 3, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I wouldn't mind a Solo Oboe 3 as well


I've just contacted VSL. They are preparing a Synchron Woodwinds Expansion - Limited Muzicsculp Edition, which will contain 20 solo French oboes, so you can pick your favorite.


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## smellypants (Mar 3, 2022)

Ben said:


> Btw, make sure you have ~50GB of free space available on your SSD if you own the Synchron Woodwinds


I'm curious which will come first, this Synchron Woodwinds update or the ilok/download manager transition.

Are you at liberty to discuss such things


----------



## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

Edit: Sorry, we found an issue that we have to fix, sorry for the inconvenience.
We'll bring the update back online asap, after the issue is fixed!

---- original post ---

We’re finally there: All the second soloists for Synchron Woodwinds are available now as a FREE UPDATE for all registered SY Woodwinds users, along with some mini fixes for the existing instruments.
More choice and different nuances for your woodwind section with Flute 2, Clarinet in Bb 2, Oboe 2 and Bassoon 2!


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## doctoremmet (Mar 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Haha .. Yup, I'm not a fan of the Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 (French Oboe), by the way, I really like the Synchron-ized Woodwinds Oboe 1 (French Oboe). It's a Day, and Night difference between this one, and the Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 (French Oboe).


So? You have an Oboe you like. Use that.


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## holywilly (Mar 4, 2022)

Ben said:


> We’re finally there: All the second soloists for Synchron Woodwinds are available now as a FREE UPDATE for all registered SY Woodwinds users, along with some mini fixes for the existing instruments.
> More choice and different nuances for your woodwind section with Flute 2, Clarinet in Bb 2, Oboe 2 and Bassoon 2!
> Dig in and enjoy!


Thanks VSL, downloading.


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## Zedcars (Mar 4, 2022)

Apart from being stuck in a car park waiting for a relative to finish shopping, this couldn’t have come at a better time. I can finally replace my transposition trick pitch-bend 2nds with the real McCoy.


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

Sorry, we found an issue that we have to fix, sorry for the inconvenience.
We'll bring the update back online asap!


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## Zedcars (Mar 4, 2022)

Ben said:


> Sorry, we found an issue that we have to fix, sorry for the inconvenience.
> We'll bring the update back online asap!


No worries. I’m sure I can live without it for a little longer. (I say while shaking with excitement…I feel like a drug addict waiting for his next fix! )


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> No worries. I’m sure I can live without it for a little longer. (I say while shaking with excitement…I feel like a drug addict waiting for his next fix! )


Well, I think you will like it! From my first playthrough these 2nd players offer different sound characteristics, and they are perfectly suited to be used as 1st instruments as well.

Personally, I would use most of these as first instruments, but I did only have little time to play around with these this time, as I'm quite busy with my other project right now. So check it out yourself, as soon as it is available again!


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## Nicola74 (Mar 4, 2022)

Hi Ben,

I have already downloaded it, do I have to download it again after the fixed issue?


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## ptram (Mar 4, 2022)

Ben said:


> some mini fixes for the existing instruments


Ben, will these fixes automatically apply to any custom preset, or should we rebuild them? If the latter case is true, maybe a detailed list of fixes can help only replacing the changed patches.

Paolo


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

Nicola74 said:


> Hi Ben,
> 
> I have already downloaded it, do I have to download it again after the fixed issue?


Probably yes, but maybe I'm able to get information on which files have been fixed. In this case you will have to only download some of the files. I keep you updated, as soon as the fixed download is available!


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

ptram said:


> Ben, will these fixes automatically apply to any custom preset, or should we rebuild them? If the latter case is true, maybe a detailed list of fixes can help only replacing the changed patches.
> 
> Paolo


This should happen automatically.


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

This time for real:

We’re finally there: All the second soloists for Synchron Woodwinds are available now as a FREE UPDATE for all registered SY Woodwinds users, along with some mini fixes for the existing instruments.
More choice and different nuances for your woodwind section with Flute 2, Clarinet in Bb 2, Oboe 2 and Bassoon 2!
Check out the audio demos, with Erik Snopko delivering the first example that highlights our second soloists and the whole Synchron Orchestra: Leaving Hogwarts, by John Williams. MORE TO COME!

If you have already downloaded the version we published earlier today, you only need to download and install the Room-Mix of Bassoon 2 and Clarinet 2 again.


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## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2022)

Ben said:


> This time for real:
> 
> We’re finally there: All the second soloists for Synchron Woodwinds are available now as a FREE UPDATE for all registered SY Woodwinds users, along with some mini fixes for the existing instruments.
> More choice and different nuances for your woodwind section with Flute 2, Clarinet in Bb 2, Oboe 2 and Bassoon 2!
> ...


Hi @Ben ,

This was pleasant news for me this morning. Looking forward to installing the new instruments. (and I'm especially hoping that I get along much better with the new Oboe 2) 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Casiquire (Mar 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Ben ,
> 
> This was pleasant news for me this morning. Looking forward to installing the new instruments. (and I'm especially hoping that I get along much better with the new Oboe 2)
> 
> ...


Def post examples, I'm curious as well!


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## Zedcars (Mar 4, 2022)

What the...560 weeks??!! But...but...that's over 10 years!


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## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Def post examples, I'm curious as well!


Will do.


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## ptram (Mar 4, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> What the...560 weeks??!! But...but...that's over 10 years!


Time to start writing that endless large scale symphony!

Paolo


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## Zanshin (Mar 4, 2022)

@muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> What the...560 weeks??!! But...but...that's over 10 years!


Please PM me in case the download is still not working for you.


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## FireGS (Mar 4, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp


@muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think?


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## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2022)

FireGS said:


> @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think? @muziksculp so what *do* you think?


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## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2022)

I even went back to Oboe 1, and compared it to Oboe 2 , just in case my ears are playing some tricks on me, but I can confirm that Oboe 2 sounds much better to my ears than Oboe 1, it has more texture, and a very rich timbre, just the opposite of Oboe 1 which sounded very flat for an Oboe. 

Now, I need a Solo Oboe 3 to replace Oboe 1. @Ben , any hopes of this happening ?  Since Oboe 1 is forbidden to play on my system.


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## ChickenAndARoll (Mar 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> I even went back to Oboe 1, and compared it to Oboe 2 , just in case my ears are playing some tricks on me, but I can confirm that Oboe 2 sounds much better to my ears than Oboe 1, it has more texture, and a very rich timbre, just the opposite of Oboe 1 which sounded very flat for an Oboe.
> 
> Now, I need a Solo Oboe 3 to replace Oboe 1. @Ben , any hopes of this happening ?  Since Oboe 1 is forbidden to play on my system.


You have the Synchron-ized Woodwinds too right? You could also use the oboes in there and blend them with the Oboe 2 from Synchron


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## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2022)

ChickenAndARoll said:


> You have the Synchron-ized Woodwinds too right? You could also use the oboes in there and blend them with the Oboe 2 from Synchron


Yes, That's true. But Synchronized Oboe doesn't have all the mic-mix options that Synchron Woodwinds have. Oh well, I guess it's not a big deal, I can still manage using both Oboes, from different libraries.


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## Robert_G (Mar 4, 2022)

I know the big concern was the Oboe 1 and I agree....and I also agree that the Oboe 2 is wonderful sounding. My biggest surprise was the the Flute 2. Absolutely beautiful. The Flute 1 is good, but I'm not sure how long I would leave it completely exposed. The Flute 2 I could exposed for a long time and not worry. It has lots of character. Very happy with it.

Also, the Bassoon 2 is nice too. Synchron Woodwinds has 2 very useable solo Bassoons.

Good job VSL


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## Zedcars (Mar 4, 2022)

Ben said:


> Please PM me in case the download is still not working for you.


Thank you. I managed to download it in the end but had to restart my Mac as the Download Manager kept freezing and I had to force quit.


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## Zedcars (Mar 4, 2022)

I agree with the comments about Flute 2 and Oboe 2. So it seems we may need to mentally reverse the number designations if we are mocking up or using this in an original piece if they are exposed. It’s great to have these.

I think perhaps VSL would have been better off releasing everything together and picking the best sounding instrument for the 1st’s. But no matter.

Thank you VSL for working so hard on these. Much appreciated.


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> I think perhaps VSL would have been better off releasing everything together and picking the best sounding instrument for the 1st’s. But no matter.


This was the plan. But due to Covid's comeback during Synchron Woodwinds' development, we could not get everything out at the same time.
Personally, I think SY Woodwinds is a wonderful library, and with the 2nd soloists you now have access to a broad range of playing characteristics, instead of having two instruments that sound more or less the same.


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## muziksculp (Mar 4, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> I know the big concern was the Oboe 1 and I agree....and I also agree that the Oboe 2 is wonderful sounding. My biggest surprise was the the Flute 2. Absolutely beautiful. The Flute 1 is good, but I'm not sure how long I would leave it completely exposed. The Flute 2 I could exposed for a long time and not worry. It has lots of character. Very happy with it.
> 
> Also, the Bassoon 2 is nice too. Synchron Woodwinds has 2 very useable solo Bassoons.
> 
> Good job VSL


Hi @Robert_G 

Thanks for the helpful, and positive feedback. 

I haven't checked Flute 2, or Bassoon 2 yet, but will surely do so.


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## jbuhler (Mar 4, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp what do you think about the 2nd oboe? @muziksculp


Really to be true to form this needs to be spread across a dozen posts.


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## Zanshin (Mar 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Really to be true to form this needs to be spread across a dozen posts.


I thought about doing that, but that would be borderline harassment! I figure most would get my parody though. Hopefully the intended party “gets it” too


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## jbuhler (Mar 4, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I thought about doing that, but that would be borderline harassment! I figure most would get my parody though. Hopefully the intended party “gets it” too


Agreed!


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## ip20 (Mar 4, 2022)

Are there any audio/video demos for the Oboe 2 or Flute 2 yet?


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## Ben (Mar 4, 2022)

ip20 said:


> Are there any audio/video demos for the Oboe 2 or Flute 2 yet?





Ben said:


> Check out the audio demos, with Erik Snopko delivering the first example that highlights our second soloists and the whole Synchron Orchestra: Leaving Hogwarts, by John Williams. MORE TO COME!


----------



## Gil (Mar 5, 2022)

Hello,
Thanks for the great update!
As an owner of Synchron Woodwinds, is it normal that in MyVSL section there is the same file "Synchron Woodwinds Update 01 - Stereo Mics" in "Synchron Library Downloads" and also in "Synchron Library Updates" (ping @Ben)?
Thanks 
Best regards,
Gil.


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## Ben (Mar 5, 2022)

Gil said:


> Hello,
> Thanks for the great update!
> As an owner of Synchron Woodwinds, is it normal that in MyVSL section there is the same file "Synchron Woodwinds Update 01 - Stereo Mics" in "Synchron Library Downloads" and also in "Synchron Library Updates" (ping @Ben)?
> Thanks
> ...


Yes, it's the same file, we put it in both section just so you can find it easier (and technically it's both, an extension and an update to existing content) 

In future there will not be such confusion - you just open our new downloader and see that there is an update available to download


----------



## smellypants (Mar 5, 2022)

Ben said:


> In future there will not be such confusion - you just open our new downloader and see that tehre is an update available to download


This is why I'm sooo looking forward to the ilok/download manager! 🙏


----------



## Gil (Mar 5, 2022)

Ben said:


> Yes, it's the same file, we put it in both section just so you can find it easier (and technically it's both, an extension and an update to existing content)
> 
> In future there will not be such confusion - you just open our new downloader and see that there is an update available to download


Thanks Ben!
Installed and rockin' (or should I say woodin' :D)!

While testing the Long Notes/Regular/Con Vibrato patch in the Velocity folder, I noticed that can be heard in the new Oboe 2 on high notes (starting from E6) a "click", wondering if it is a key press.

I'm not sure if it can be considered as a problem, although I can't hear this "click" in Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 or Synchronized Woodwinds Oboe 1 and Oboe 2.

Best regards,
Gil.


----------



## Ben (Mar 5, 2022)

Gil said:


> While testing the Long Notes/Regular/Con Vibrato patch in the Velocity folder, I noticed that can be heard in the new Oboe 2 on high notes (starting from E6) a "click", wondering if it is a key press.
> 
> I'm note sure if it can be considered as a problem, although I can't hear this "click" in Synchron Woodwinds Oboe 1 or Synchronized Woodwinds Oboe 1 and Oboe 2.


Thanks! I think this is part of the instrument, but I've asked the team to look into this, just in case.


----------



## doctoremmet (Mar 11, 2022)




----------



## doctoremmet (Mar 15, 2022)




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## doctoremmet (Mar 15, 2022)

Great video @Beat Kaufmann


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## Zedcars (Mar 28, 2022)

Hello @Ben

Please could you direct me to the Change Log for the Synchron WW v2 update issued on 10th March?

I can only find the previous one on your website:





__





Synchron Woodwinds Changelog | VSL - Instruments







www.vsl.info





I noticed you guys have fixed the Oboe 1 Long Espressivo Con Vibrato patch as it had an incorrect glitchy loop point. Great, thank you! I would like to know what else has been fixed or addressed as I need to know if I should re-render all my WW audio again for a better quality sound.

Kind regards,
Darren


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## Gil (Mar 28, 2022)

Ben said:


> Thanks! I think this is part of the instrument, but I've asked the team to look into this, just in case.


Hello @Ben,
Did you get an answer about it?
Thanks!
Best regards,
Gil.


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## Ben (Mar 29, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> Hello @Ben
> 
> Please could you direct me to the Change Log for the Synchron WW v2 update issued on 10th March?
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly it was only an Oboe 1 issue.


----------



## Ben (Mar 29, 2022)

Gil said:


> Hello @Ben,
> Did you get an answer about it?
> Thanks!
> Best regards,
> Gil.


Yes, I did. It's part of the real instrument, so this will not be changed.


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## Zedcars (Mar 29, 2022)

Ben said:


> If I remember correctly it was only an Oboe 1 issue.


Thanks. Just very strange that the update was multiple GB of data if it was only an update to address one instrument.


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## RogiervG (Mar 29, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Great video @Beat Kaufmann



The strings sound terrific (very good job, from VSL and how Beat used them!).. the woods not so much somehow (very sterile in tone, not much "life" in them).
Same with that other demo ("riding with the sky sailor").. that one is even worse. (sounds like a nineties sampler playing: very synthy like stiff, you know those cheap-ish sounds)

(maybe an not so popular opinion:
The synchron-ized and its origin: vi version, of vsl's woodwinds has way more life in the samples from everything i've heard so far (many many many examples/reviews/composition renders etc)

*i am not judging the craftmanship of Beat and Jeremie.. not at all..they understand their craft! *
but i can't help it, but find the synchron woodwinds an almost "lite" version (tone/articulation wise) of the older woodwinds. The latter breaths life.. the former is well.. riggid in a way.

Tldr: Some synchron libs are stunningly terrific, others not so much.
(my opinion ofcourse, each to their own.. Luckely we have choice!)


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## omc_29 (Mar 29, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> The strings sound terrific (very good job, from VSL and how Beat used them!).. the woods not so much somehow (very sterile in tone, not much "life" in them).
> Same with that other demo ("riding with the sky sailor").. that one is even worse. (sounds like a nineties sampler playing: very synthy like stiff, you know those cheap-ish sounds)
> 
> (maybe an not so popular opinion:
> ...


I feel similar in regards to Synchron woods. I find the synchronized woodwinds better, especially for the legatos and for expressive melodic lines. Overall, many elements of the synchron series is really nice but I just find that the synchron series legatos are really lacking in comparison to other libraries.


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## fakemaxwell (Oct 10, 2022)

With all of VSLs woodwinds on sale- how is everyone liking the Synchron Woodwinds now? Are they still getting a lot of use in your templates?

The upgrade from Prime with the sale on is pretty decent, and I have all the VSL strings so potentially looking to add to the collection.


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## Petrucci (Oct 10, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> With all of VSLs woodwinds on sale- how is everyone liking the Synchron Woodwinds now? Are they still getting a lot of use in your templates?
> 
> The upgrade from Prime with the sale on is pretty decent, and I have all the VSL strings so potentially looking to add to the collection.


I like em and been using for half a year instead of Synchronized Woodwinds, but that's my taste, so..!))


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## smellypants (Oct 10, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> With all of VSLs woodwinds on sale- how is everyone liking the Synchron Woodwinds now? Are they still getting a lot of use in your templates?
> 
> The upgrade from Prime with the sale on is pretty decent, and I have all the VSL strings so potentially looking to add to the collection.


Yes I think they are ridiculously good. The entire Synchron line is spectacular imo!


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## Karmand (Oct 10, 2022)

Yes, I have the synchronized version - these are in the daily template. I opted for these since I love MIR3D and they work so well. Love the Synchron player. I have most of the Synchron strings, Brass full and Perc I and these woods. What a great sound.


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## JF_Composer (Oct 10, 2022)

Yes, very good instruments. They don't work in every situation for me so I sometimes get the old VIs back with MIR Pro(old version) or BWW.
That said SWW is definitely my first choice.


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