# Spitfire Studio Brass



## Zee

So ummmm. this happened out of nowhere


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## NoamL

WHAT


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## CT

Awesome. I'll be there on opening day! It's just too bad for my wallet that the Pro edition seems to be necessary right off the bat, for my needs, unlike with the strings.


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## Zhao Shen

Spitfire, you're killing me... IMO this product has the most impressive sound of any product Spitfire has released, but that legato is simply mediocre compared to the other options out there


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## DR BOOWHO

Studio.?? Not trying to steal someone's thunder are we ☺


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Ah jeez, how are you gonna know what's what when you got two tracks of "SSB Trombone" in your template.


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## averystemmler

Are there any brass players left to be sampled? I think we've spent them all this year.


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## jbuhler

I haven't even received the email yet! The division between basic and pro makes more sense in this library than the strings, though I wished they'd given the basic another mic position if not the full CTA. Pricing on pro looks very reasonable for what's being offered. Haven't listened yet though.


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## Jdiggity1

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/spitfire-studio-brass/

Tempting promo prices. $149 for the standard edition, $299 for professional. I'd say both of those options are pretty good value


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## HelixK

PRO has double the articulations, 9 extra instruments and 5 extra mic positions... that's very impressive for $299

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/spitfire-studio-brass/


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## Michael Stibor

jbuhler said:


> I haven't even received the email yet! The division between basic and pro makes more sense in this library than the strings, though I wished they'd given the basic another mic position if not the full CTA. Pricing on pro looks very reasonable for what's being offered. *Haven't listened yet though.*



Me neither, though I'd be very surprised if it tempted me away from CSB.


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## Silence-is-Golden

averystemmler said:


> Are there any brass players left to be sampled? I think we've spent them all this year.


Or some of them are simply very busy.....


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## sostenuto

2018 Holidays Sleeping Giant awoke, err awakened ….. woked up ?

Only 6 days …. easy peasy


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## SImonK

Curveball for Cinematic Studio Brass?! Didn't see that one coming!

But I don't see this as revolutionary, sounds similar to everything thats out there, tell you the truth. Or maybe I need to be enlightened?


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## HelixK

It is very refreshing to see Spitfire just dropping the bomb without layers of announcement shenanigans.


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## jamwerks

Very tempting price!


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## averystemmler

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Or some of them are simply very busy.....



Running from studio to studio blowing Sfz down the chimney like Santa Claus.


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## Lee Blaske

This sounds and looks very good. Really affordable, too @ $299 for the pro version. I just spent $225 for just the Synchron upgrade to my VSL Dimension Brass I library (I skipped updating Dimension Brass II for the moment). In comparison, $299 for the whole pro version library (including mutes) is dirt cheap. 

We're in a whole new world as far as library pricing goes. I like it, but I fear it might squeeze the little guys out. Major companies can make it up on volume. With Spitfire pushing prices of major new products down, other larger sample companies are going to have to look at their pricing structure.


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## jbuhler

No demos as far as I can see. Not sure this is the precise timing SF wanted for this release. Seems like the launch is a bit rushed.


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## CT

Those swells are very nice. Great to have for brass.


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## HelixK

Lee Blaske said:


> This sounds and looks very good. Really affordable, too @ $299 for the pro version. I just spent $225 for just the Synchron upgrade to my VSL Dimension Brass I library (I skipped updating Dimension Brass II for the moment). In comparison, $299 for the whole pro version library (including mutes) is dirt cheap.
> 
> We're in a whole new world as far as library pricing goes. I like it, but I fear it might squeeze the little guys out. Major companies can make it up on volume. With Spitfire pushing prices of major new products down, other larger sample companies are going to have to look at their pricing structure.



How are you liking the Synchron Brass? I wasn't even aware of it... did they record new material?


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## Michael Stibor

I wonder if those Spitfire guys were like "Now I know flautando is a string articulation, but I wonder if we can't include it in our brass library somehow?"


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## axb312

Can anyone explain why they need six mic setups on a scoring stage?

It would be cool to have that on a bigger stage like air, but is it really necessary for smaller stages?

Seems a bit wasteful and inconsiderate wrt HDD space imo....


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## Nmargiotta

DECEMBER 2018 Forever known as the “BRASS Wars”

Great work @Spitfire Team @christianhenson Loving that Tuba! And only halfway through the walkthrough


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## Henu

axb312 said:


> Can anyone explain why they need six mic setups on a scoring stage?



I was thinking that as well, but maybe the stage is still so large that it makes sense.? Hard to say without knowing where this was recorded, though.

Also, CSB coming "soon" and this one already next week with a fixed date, this is going to get dirty at Vi-C, hah!


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## Michael Stibor

Henu said:


> Also, CSB coming "soon" and this one already next week with a fixed date, this is going to get dirty at Vi-C, hah!



For sure. Shots fired!

No teaser. No audio demos out (yet). Short walkthrough videos. It's clear to me, they were rushing to get this out before CSB. A smart move from a business stand point.


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## HelixK

axb312 said:


> Can anyone explain why they need six mic setups on a scoring stage?
> 
> It would be cool to have that on a bigger stage like air, but is it really necessary for smaller stages?
> 
> Seems a bit wasteful and inconsiderate wrt HDD space imo....



Different mic setups, different sound qualities, different options... I like that a lot. Kontakt libraries are modular, you can delete any mic positions you don't use if that's an issue.


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## CT

If you listen to Paul demonstrate the microphones, I think it's pretty clear that Air 1 still has a lot of different perspectives to offer despite being a smaller room.

Whether or not you need/want them is another story, but it's not like they just stuck 20 different mics up in a closet to eat up your hard drive space.


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## Wally Garten

Goodness, that's very nice. 

Any idea why the sole mic position in the standard edition is "Tree"? I am still very much a journeyman at mixing, so maybe I'm off base here, but I would think if the idea is a "dry," "studio" sound, you'd want the close mic?


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## erica-grace

The sound is very nice, but is it just me, or do those horn legatos in the beginning not sound very good?


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## Lee Blaske

jbuhler said:


> No demos as far as I can see. Not sure this is the precise timing SF wanted for this release. Seems like the launch is a bit rushed.



Yeah, I looked for them, too, and I was surprised there weren't any. BTW, on the RH side of the window on this thread is an ad for "Cinematic Studio Brass." Coming soon. Maybe that's part of the rush to press for Spitfire.

Spitfire has sure put out a lot of products this year, but then again, they seem to have a very large staff. How are they going to equal or top this in 2019? I wonder how many projects they have in the works. Are the possibilities endless? I expect we'll see more products that are hybrid compositional tools, like Dust and British Drama Toolkit.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Nmargiotta said:


> DECEMBER 2018 Forever known as the “BRASS Wars”
> 
> Great work @Spitfire Team @christianhenson Loving that Tuba! And only halfway through the walkthrough


 You missed the november month  :D


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## Henu

Watching the walkthrough of the poor man's version. Holy mother of cows, I want this so bad I am ashamed of myself. Unless I have become deaf and unprofessional, these sound incredibly good to my ears!


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## artomatic

Henu said:


> Watching the walkthrough of the poor man's version. Holy mother of cows, I want this so bad I am ashamed of myself. Unless I have become deaf and unprofessional, these sound incredibly good to my ears!




Indeed!


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## Henu

Wally Garten said:


> I would think if the idea is a "dry," "studio" sound, you'd want the close mic?



The room and how it reflects (to) the sound is even more important than the original source. Close- mic'd brass sounds usually like a nasal fart, so you need some sort of a room to make the sound "bloom". The idea here is to use a smaller room instead of a huge hall. In that sense, you'll get a big enough sound from the room reflections but it's not having that 3 mile long tail that many libraries have due to their recording environment.


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## Gerbil

Perfect pricing and lots to like. Could help to get a real Ebony Concerto thing going with these. I'm interested to hear how playable those legatos are at different speeds even though I don't use legato much with brass.


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## Oscillator

erica-grace said:


> The sound is very nice, but is it just me, or do those horn legatos in the beginning not sound very good?



That was my thought as well - I liked almost everything I heard, but that horn legato sounded strange, having a "wah" sound to each note, and somewhat disconnected from the previous note.

I'm not sure there's enough here to justify buying it over the Symphonic Brass - I mean almost everything is doubled, it just sounds a bit different (and drier).


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## jononotbono

Really like the swell and Variation option. Is 'Variation' Kontakt's Time Machine being applied like the "Stretch" option (which is called TM Patches in other SA libraries such as Symphonic Strings and Chamber Strings etc)? Wondering what it's doing to make the Variations. Anything to make the samples flexible is a great idea in my opinion.


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## CT

Hmm... I could probably wait on the additional mic positions and instruments in the Pro version, but the lack of a solo trombone in the basic version gives me pause. I'll have to think about whether or not I can make do without that until upgrading.


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## Lee Blaske

HelixK said:


> How are you liking the Synchron Brass? I wasn't even aware of it... did they record new material?



They added some articulations, but it's mainly the old samples, remastered, with the Synchron Player, with the Synchron Stage IR. I like it. I liked the old library before. Not a dramatic difference, but the Synchron Player might be a bit simpler to use.


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## Michael Stibor

So far it sounds pretty good. The lower dynamics sound excellent. Though the staccatos sound a little strident for my tastes. Hard to judge just like that though. Looking forward to demos of them used in a mix.


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## Lee Blaske

BTW, regarding the legatos in the Spitfire Studio Brass, they sound really good to me. That "wah" sound is what you get on the real instrument as you find the slots. It is more of a classical sound. I doubt that anyone would choose this library for big band or pop horn section use.


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## Wolf68

love the room sound


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## Wally Garten

Henu said:


> Close- mic'd brass sounds usually like a nasal fart



Ha! That made me laugh. I guess my thought was just that if you had the close, you'd be able to add your own "room" to taste with reverb, but if you only have the tree you're kinda stuck with that sound. If you listen to the difference between the close and tree mics in the video at around 0:55-1:05, the tree mics sound, comparatively, _very_ wet to me.

But, of course, I haven't played around with this library myself. It's certainly possible they made the right choice here.


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## Nmargiotta

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> You missed the november month  :D



Hahah I was thinking that however no libraries were _actually _released, until today!! The powder keg of the VI world just got lit with the release of SSB


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## tomhartmanmusic

If you buy the standard version, can you upgrade to the Pro later?


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## CT

tomhartmanmusic said:


> If you buy the standard version, can you upgrade to the Pro later?



Yes. With the strings, you just pay the difference. Definitely the same deal here.


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## tomhartmanmusic

miket said:


> Yes. With the strings, you just pay the difference. Definitely the same deal here.



Thanks, I was looking and I didn't see an expiration on the great intro price...is it for just December?


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## CT

I don't remember how long it lasted for the strings. I think it's usually about a two week stretch.


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## brenneisen

jononotbono said:


> Is 'Variation' Kontakt's Time Machine being applied like the "Stretch" option (which is called TM Patches in other SA libraries such as Symphonic Strings and Chamber Strings etc)?



I believe the variations are recorded, not stretched


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## Bear Market

That's it! I'm weaning myself off the internet! I'm too fiscally irresponsible to deal with this recent brass bonanza!


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## Consona

We are nearly in 2019 so honestly, can the legato handle this line or not?


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## NoamL

Wow.

You have to admit this is probably the most amazing price Spitfire has ever offered on a brand new library. The pro price gets you a truly impressive amount of instruments and even the 150 price point for one mic is comparable to where Hollywood Brass Gold is after seven years of gradually steeper sales...

Together with the lack of buildup hype, no demos yet, and no announcement of the full post-intro price, anyone would be forgiven for thinking this is all about not losing TOO many sales to Cinematic Studio Brass.  *[EDIT:* someone kindly pointed out to me that this is launching at the EXACT same price as Spitfire Studio Strings, so I think my speculation was a bit unwarranted...*]*

Out of all the deals that have been trying to steal away the $280 I have locked down for CSB this is by far the most tempting one yet. I passed on Afflatus, on Ark1 60% off, on the "Complete your Albions" deal, Infinite Brass and a lot more... this is one that I'll have to think about.

Initial impressions of the sound are good.

There's a wide variety of shorts, swells, extended techniques, and pretty comprehensive sampling of straight mute / stopped. The shorts seem compatible and interchangeable.

The sampling of the lowest dynamics seems so thorough, maybe more than any existing product. LOVELY quiet sounds.

The top dynamics just don't seem to be there. It's better than Berlin, closer to Hollywood and the other flagship brass libraries. But less than what we can hear in the demos for CSB...

HOWEVER.... I can see there is a "cuivre" patch that Paul demoed a little... I know it has a little more oomph in Albion Iii iceni, wonder if its the same here.

Looking forward to a closer listen soon!!


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## gjelul

averystemmler said:


> Are there any brass players left to be sampled? I think we've spent them all this year.



lol...
and there still the AudioBro brass coming out soon


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## tomhartmanmusic

gjelul said:


> lol...
> and there still the AudioBro brass coming out soon



I didn't know there were finally demos up for CSB, just listened.

So, I think the Spitfire stuff definitely sounds bigger, in a Williams "Towering Inferno" kind of way, but the CSB sounds so pure and real it's rather nutty. Couldn't go wrong in getting both asap, who needs to make that car payment anyway? lol

The intro price on the Spitfire library I can't ignore, but will be getting both. LASS is thankfully is awhile off....


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## HelixK

NoamL said:


> Wow.
> 
> You have to admit this is probably the most amazing price Spitfire has ever offered on a brand new library. The pro price gets you a truly impressive amount of instruments and even the 150 price point for one mic is comparable to where Hollywood Brass Gold is after seven years of gradually steeper sales...
> 
> Together with the lack of buildup hype, no demos yet, and no announcement of the full post-intro price, anyone would be forgiven for thinking this is all about not losing TOO many sales to Cinematic Studio Brass.
> 
> Out of all the deals that have been trying to steal away the $280 I have locked down for CSB this is by far the most tempting one yet. I passed on Afflatus, on Ark1 60% off, on the "Complete your Albions" deal, Infinite Brass and a lot more... this is one that I'll have to think about.
> 
> Initial impressions of the sound are good.
> 
> There's a wide variety of shorts, swells, extended techniques, and pretty comprehensive sampling of straight mute / stopped. The shorts seem compatible and interchangeable.
> 
> The sampling of the lowest dynamics seems so thorough, maybe more than any existing product. LOVELY quiet sounds.
> 
> The top dynamics just don't seem to be there. It's better than Berlin, closer to Hollywood and the other flagship brass libraries. But less than what we can hear in the demos for CSB...
> 
> HOWEVER.... I can see there is a "cuivre" patch that Paul demoed a little... I know it has a little more oomph in Albion Iii iceni, wonder if its the same here.
> 
> Looking forward to a closer listen soon!!



You've made some excellent observations... we get a lot more content with SSB compared to CSB (cimbasso, euphonium, contrabass trombone, contrabass tuba, piccolo trumpet, bass trumpet...) but I still think CSB has a slight edge, at least for me, due to the painless CSS integration.

We need a walkthrough ASAP to close the deal. cc @Alex W


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## HelixK

gjelul said:


> lol...
> and there still the AudioBro brass coming out soon



Not so soon, I believe it was mentioned Q1 2019...


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## Geoff Grace

Oscillator said:


> I'm not sure there's enough here to justify buying it over the Symphonic Brass - I mean almost everything is doubled, it just sounds a bit different (and drier).


Yeah, that's the comparison I'm interested in too.

Best,

Geoff


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## gjelul

HelixK said:


> Not so soon, I believe it was mentioned Q1 2019...



3 months is not a long time... 

Most importantly, what Spitfire released today is really nice. And the price is very competitive as well. Makes it hard to resist...


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## Architekton

I am pretty much confused on what to actually buy...CSB or SSB... :/ Both sound ok judging by video/demos...


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## Michael Stibor

NoamL said:


> You have to admit this is probably the most amazing price Spitfire has ever offered on a brand new library. The pro price gets you a truly impressive amount of instruments and even the 150 price point for one mic is comparable to where Hollywood Brass Gold is after seven years of gradually steeper sales...
> 
> Together with the lack of buildup hype, no demos yet, and no announcement of the full post-intro price, anyone would be forgiven for thinking this is all about not losing TOO many sales to Cinematic Studio Brass.
> 
> Out of all the deals that have been trying to steal away the $280 I have locked down for CSB this is by far the most tempting one yet. I passed on Afflatus, on Ark1 60% off, on the "Complete your Albions" deal, Infinite Brass and a lot more... this is one that I'll have to think about.
> 
> Initial impressions of the sound are good.
> 
> There's a wide variety of shorts, swells, extended techniques, and pretty comprehensive sampling of straight mute / stopped. The shorts seem compatible and interchangeable.
> 
> The sampling of the lowest dynamics seems so thorough, maybe more than any existing product. LOVELY quiet sounds.
> 
> The top dynamics just don't seem to be there. It's better than Berlin, closer to Hollywood and the other flagship brass libraries. But less than what we can hear in the demos for CSB...
> 
> HOWEVER.... I can see there is a "cuivre" patch that Paul demoed a little... I know it has a little more oomph in Albion Iii iceni, wonder if its the same here.
> 
> Looking forward to a closer listen soon!!



Wow, your assessment of the product is so spot on with what I was thinking that I actually had to double check to see if I wrote it!

I just got my Christmas bonus, so both are tempting, but I think I'll still hold out for CSB. One of my concerns is that if Spitfire _did_ rush to get this out, is it going to have the same unfinished issued as SStS was reported to have?


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## Oscillator

Lee Blaske said:


> BTW, regarding the legatos in the Spitfire Studio Brass, they sound really good to me. That "wah" sound is what you get on the real instrument as you find the slots. It is more of a classical sound. I doubt that anyone would choose this library for big band or pop horn section use.



Not really. Orchestral horn players don't sound like that when they're playing a melodic line. It sounds very "samply" to me. But the trumpet, trombone, and tuba sounded fantastic, just not different enough from the Symphonic Brass to justify a purchase perhaps.


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## jamwerks

Seems like horn legato is also the toughest to get right in the sample world.

Comparing this to CSB, looks like SF has like twice the articulations.


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## NoamL

Quick note, on the articulation page it says there are 2 premade mixes in the Pro edition. So it won't necessarily eat up a lot of RAM if you don't want to load up all the mics and make your own mix. Really nice!


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## Michael Stibor

jamwerks said:


> Seems like horn legato is also the toughest to get right in the sample world.
> 
> Comparing this to CSB, looks like SF has like twice the articulations.



Which could be a good thing for those that will take advantage of those additional articulations. The downside of course being that it just adds to the 'weight' of the program.


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## erica-grace

Lee Blaske said:


> BTW, regarding the legatos in the Spitfire Studio Brass, they sound really good to me.





[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfbr-mp3.16948/][/AUDIOPLUS]


That sounds good to you? Really?

--


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## galactic orange

NoamL said:


> Quick note, on the articulation page it says there are 2 premade mixes in the Pro edition. So it won't necessarily eat up a lot of RAM if you don't want to load up all the mics and make your own mix. Really nice!


This is what I like about the Spitfire libraries I own. I can get a great sounding template set up with relatively low memory footprint. Love BHCT for that. No shortage of articulations with this brass (will get the Pro version for sure if I open the wallet). After purchasing another large brass library in recent weeks I’ll be breaking the bank if I add another... but I love those mixes!


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## SimonCharlesHanna

erica-grace said:


> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfbr-mp3.16948/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> 
> That sounds good to you? Really?
> 
> --


Ouch.....Also...where is that sample from? The library isn't out yet?


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## jamwerks

mikefrommontreal said:


> Which could be a good thing for those that will take advantage of those additional articulations. The downside of course being that it just adds to the 'weight' of the program.


It does take space on the HD, but any art can be unloaded (and cleared from ram), so it's very flexable...


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## erica-grace

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Ouch.....Also...where is that sample from? The library isn't out yet?



Paul's walk through video.


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## Architekton

erica-grace said:


> Paul's walk through video.



I dont think he even tried to play legato lines correctly, he just wanted to show the sound of horns. We will see when demo tracks come out...


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## erica-grace

Architekton said:


> I dont think he even tried to play legato lines correctly, he just wanted to show the sound of horns.



That line is the _very first thing_ that your potential customers are going to hear (unless they watch the pro video first), and you say "ah screw it! It doesn't matter how this sounds!" ?



Architekton said:


> We will see when demo tracks come out...



You mean the ones that are buried in reverb and mixed with other instruments?


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## Mason

erica-grace said:


> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfbr-mp3.16948/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> 
> That sounds good to you? Really?
> 
> --



Yes, that sounds quite good actually. If you don't know it already, playing a horn above MF will never become very legato.


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## Michael Stibor

jamwerks said:


> It does take space on the HD, but any art can be unloaded (and cleared from ram), so it's very flexable...


Oh for sure. I'd just rather have the quality of CSB, than the added articulations of SSB. But i'm sure they're both going to be good, and can see myself owning both at one point.

Edit to clarify: Not saying that I think that SSB won't be a quality product. Just that I _know_ that CSB will be.


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## Jdiggity1

erica-grace said:


> You mean the ones that are buried in reverb and mixed with other instruments?


I dunno about you, but i'll be burying mine in reverb and other instruments, so I wouldn't mind hearing how that sounds.


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## erica-grace

Jdiggity1 said:


> I dunno about you, but i'll be burying mine in reverb and other instruments, so I wouldn't mind hearing how that sounds.



I like to hear the sounds as recorded before a mix and added reverb, so I know what I am buying.


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## NoamL

When you have a wide dynamic range for the sustains then you have to sample multiple dynamics of legato transition, you can't just do mf otherwise they stand out when the sustains are pp or ff. The softer legato transitions towards the end of your excerpt sound just fine, the ones at the start sound like they were _maybe_ recorded at a little dynamic level below the "lip bleed sustains." But also, it's not idiomatic to play slurs between every note on brass instruments that way.


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## AdamKmusic

Wow sounds brilliant and those prices are fantastic! Always looking to upgrade my Brass libraries and this might be the one!


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## porrasm

mikefrommontreal said:


> For sure. Shots fired!
> 
> No teaser. No audio demos out (yet). Short walkthrough videos. It's clear to me, they were rushing to get this out before CSB. A smart move from a business stand point.


Well they did say it will be released soon after the studio strings.


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## Raphioli

The list of articulations is pretty amazing.
Wish their Symphonic Brass had this comprehensiveness in terms of articulations.
Also, the solo instruments in Studio Brass have a decent upper dynamic range where Symphonic Brass lacks at it. 
They should really release an expansion for their Symphonic range, but I'm not sure if they will be able to get a consistent sound. (eg. combining different articulations from the current Symphonic Brass and newly sampled content might sound like they're coming from different libraries, if they were to do an expansion.)


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## heisenberg

Does CSB stand for Cinematic Studio Brass?


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## Michael Stibor

heisenberg said:


> Does CSB stand for Cinematic Studio Brass?


yep


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## heisenberg

Cinematic Studio Brass is not released, nor are there any video walkthroughs or substantive demos going through the library. The posts relating toward debating whether one should buy Spitfire's product and CSB is premature, in my view.


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## Seycara

erica-grace said:


> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfbr-mp3.16948/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> 
> That sounds good to you? Really?
> 
> --



^This, exactly. I don't know why every time a new gen SF library is released everyone seems to ignore the glaring loss of quality in the legatos that are no where near the level of the old SF air libraries. SStS had very subpar, almost unuseable legatos in my opinion and SStB is shaping up to be the same. Shame that Spitfire chose to cut corners on the sampling/programming of legatos when they have demonstrated the tech to do *much* better from years ago.

Until SF shows an improvement in this aspect, I will not be buying any of their future releases.


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## Mason

Seycara said:


> ^This, exactly. I don't know why every time a new gen SF library is released everyone seems to ignore the glaring loss of quality in the legatos that are no where near the level of the old SF air libraries. SStS had very subpar, almost unuseable legatos in my opinion and SStB is shaping up to be the same. Shame that Spitfire chose to cut corners on the sampling/programming of legatos when they have demonstrated the tech to do *much* better from years ago.
> 
> Until SF shows an improvement in this aspect, I will not be buying any of their future releases.



And what's wrong with the legato in that sample?


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## Oscillator

Mason said:


> And what's wrong with the legato in that sample?



If you can't hear it, it will be difficult to explain. It's quite obvious that the sounds between the notes do not have the connective tissue that a real player would have, but that many libraries are very capable of reproducing at this stage. Regardless, I'm willing to give Spitfire the benefit of the doubt here since the trumpet and tuba solos sounded particularly great in the latter part of the video.


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## NoamL

heisenberg said:


> Cinematic Studio Brass is not released, nor are there any video walkthroughs or substantive demos going through the library. The posts relating toward debating whether one should buy Spitfire's product and CSB is premature, in my view.



There's walkthroughs for SStB but no demos, and demos for CSB but no walkthroughs.


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## Mason

Oscillator said:


> If you can't hear it, it will be difficult to explain. It's quite obvious that the sounds between the notes do not have the connective tissue that a real player would have, but that many libraries are very capable of reproducing at this stage. Regardless, I'm willing to give Spitfire the benefit of the doubt here since the trumpet and tuba solos sounded particularly great in the latter part of the video.



There is no legato when horn players play above MF. So there shouldn't be any connective tissue there.


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## Seycara

Mason said:


> There is no legato when horn players play above MF. So there shouldn't be any connective tissue there.



There is too much "space" in between the notes and not enough legato transition for SStB's example. Have you heard the cinesamples 12 horn legato @ FFF or OT's Ark I 9 horns legato @ FFF? Those are very good examples of loud horn legati.


----------



## Oscillator

Mason said:


> There is no legato when horn players play above MF. So there shouldn't be any connective tissue there.



I know a dozen professional horn players who would respond to that statement by either laughing heartily or scratching their heads in confusion. Of course horns can play legato at loud dynamic levels. There are all kinds of passages that call for slurs at that dynamic. If not a legato patch, where would these kinds of note transitions fit in a library?


----------



## Michael Stibor

heisenberg said:


> Cinematic Studio Brass is not released, nor are there any video walkthroughs or substantive demos going through the library. The posts relating toward debating whether one should buy Spitfire's product and CSB is premature, in my view.


How's that? Neither had been released. Both are coming out around the same time. Both around the same price point. Demos for CSB. Videos for SSB. Many will likely be deciding which one of the two to buy. Entirely relevant.


----------



## Mason

Oscillator said:


> I know a dozen professional horn players who would respond to that statement by either laughing heartily or scratching their heads in confusion. Of course horns can play legato at loud dynamic levels. There are all kinds of passages that call for slurs at that dynamic. If not a legato patch, where would these kinds of note transitions fit in a library?



Well, ask them then, and get back to us.
Slurs in a horn part actually mean portamento, so if you want normal legato there are no slurs. Many don't know this and get a quirky result because what they wanted was a legato, but the slur had them play portamentos all over the place. Luckily horn players will often know that the composer messed up and play it correctly anyway.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Oscillator said:


> I know a dozen professional horn players who would respond to that statement by either laughing heartily or scratching their heads in confusion. Of course horns can play legato at loud dynamic levels. There are all kinds of passages that call for slurs at that dynamic. If not a legato patch, where would these kinds of note transitions fit in a library?



maybe he meant how it would be difficult to perform legato for long at such a dynamic in a solo passage. with an _ensemble_ they can stagger moments of breathing so that the line sounds continous.

i know for tuba and contrabass trombone, once you start going below the bass clef, you'll be lucky to get legato between two notes. it just takes too much air, even at softer dynamics, to really be "useable" in a live setting. sure, sample libraries can record all the two-note transitions, and also give you looped sustains, so you can do whatever you want to your heart's content - but in real life, players have to breathe. if you're playing _fff_ on a long horn line you might have only 2-3 seconds of air with which to slur notes together before needing to inhale again. on tuba or contrabass trombone, at the bottom of your register you may only get 1-1.5 seconds of air.


----------



## jeremiahpena

Mason said:


> There is no legato when horn players play above MF. So there shouldn't be any connective tissue there.


----------



## Mason

Karl Feuerstake said:


> maybe he meant how it would be difficult to perform legato for long at such a dynamic in a solo passage. with an _ensemble_ they can stagger moments of breathing so that the line sounds continous.
> 
> i know for tuba and contrabass trombone, once you start going below the bass clef, you'll be lucky to get legato between two notes. it just takes too much air, even at softer dynamics, to really be "useable" in a live setting. sure, sample libraries can record all the two-note transitions, and also give you looped sustains, so you can do whatever you want to your heart's content - but in real life, players have to breathe, and if you're playing _fff_ on a long horn line you might have only 2-3 seconds of air with which to slur notes together before needing to inhale again.



With horn players, from forte up, they will articulate the notes as they must push them out.


----------



## NoamL

Mason said:


> Slurs in a horn part actually mean portamento



no they mean slurs. 

Slurs and legato are two different things as well. e.g. you can write "broad legato tongue" over a part with no slurs.

Sample developers have their own language to describe virtual instruments and unfortunately it sometimes directly contradicts the language you need to use with real musicians.


----------



## Mason

jeremiahpena said:


>




Yes, and that's not exactly legato.


----------



## Mason

NoamL said:


> no they mean slurs.
> 
> Slurs and legato are two different things as well. e.g. you can write "broad legato tongue" over a part with no slurs.
> 
> Sample developers have their own language to describe virtual instruments and unfortunately it sometimes directly contradicts the language you need to use with real musicians.



I think that was what I was trying to say, that slurs and legato are two different things


----------



## NoamL

Mason said:


> Yes, and that's not exactly legato.



Those notes are clearly slurred. Not every single one to the next, but there's a slur over every upbeat phrase until the downbeat.


----------



## jeremiahpena

NoamL said:


> Those notes are clearly slurred. Not every single one to the next, but in groups of 2-3 like Karl said.



Yeah. Regardless of semantics, this is the kind of sound a lot of people are expecting when sample libraries refer to horn legato. Not that it isn't there in the SSB example, but nowhere near as pronounced.


----------



## Mason

NoamL said:


> Those notes are clearly slurred. Not every single one to the next, but there's a slur over every upbeat phrase until the downbeat.



Listen to how different the articulation is from the first and second time of the horn theme. The second time it's more articulated. I haven't seen the score, but I presume the first time is MF and the second time F.

And, of course, comparing to a live recording isn't always fair as 2+ musicians with staggered breathing will always be different from one single horn patch.


----------



## Raphioli

jeremiahpena said:


>




Love that soundtrack.
I especially love "Morlocks Attacks", the aggressive piece.


----------



## LamaRose

So SF isn't even going through the motions to release and support via the commercial thread? There's blood in the water... going to be a feeding frenzy for great deals next year.


----------



## LamaRose

Mason said:


> And what's wrong with the legato in that sample?


There are no legato transitions in that sample... just a note-to-note sustain.


----------



## axb312

LamaRose said:


> So SF isn't even going through the motions to release and support via the commercial thread? There's blood in the water... going to be a feeding frenzy for great deals next year.



Yea this is a little Sad.


----------



## Oscillator

The point of a legato patch is that you don't hear repeated attacks between notes - they are essentially the equivalent of a "slur" patch, that is why you have things called "true legato" which literally sample a player changing from one note to another without re-tonguing, and catching all the "in-between" sounds. The problem with the Spitfire sample shared earlier is that it sounds like the notes are being restarted every time new one is triggered, rather than sounding like a continuous line. Horn players play these sorts of slurred/legato lines at forte (and above) all the time.


----------



## Mason

LamaRose said:


> There are no legato transitions in that sample... just a note-to-note sustain.



You can hear that as he plays softer it becomes more legato.


----------



## Raphioli

LamaRose said:


> So SF isn't even going through the motions to release and support via the commercial thread? There's blood in the water... going to be a feeding frenzy for great deals next year.



Maybe they're trying a different approach. (completely opposite of building up hype.)
I was surprised (in a good way).

I knew it would eventually be released since they mentioned SStB SStW when they released SStS, but I didn't have a clue when.

Next release, we might have something like, them suddenly announcing a new product and be like "available today". Same date as the announcement, just like Apple


----------



## constaneum

One thing. I wonder why no staccato patch but staccatissimo. Hmm...


----------



## The Darris

Consona said:


> We are nearly in 2019 so honestly, can the legato handle this line or not?



No. Why? Because Spitfire Audio has zero concern with trying to emulate that type of style with their current releases. Now, I would venture to say that Andy Blaney could figure it out as many of his demos over the years have shown how good these libraries sound but, if you listen closely, you will hear that he avoids legato lines like that in his Brass writing. I freakin love his demos and compositions in general but he is very good at writing to the strengths of the samples whilst sounding very idiomatic to the orchestra. That, alone, is an amazing skill to have. 

With that said, the Studio Series, at least with Studio Strings, has not been marketed towards these types of compositions. That's fine. I think it's very important for potential buyers to understand the purposes of the libraries being released, especially by Spitfire. They usually have a very focused concept, designed to achieve good results if you write within that aesthetic. Again, nothing wrong with those types of libraries. I welcome them. We, the consumer, just need to be aware of that and not fall into those marketing traps of hyperbole. 

Personally, after listening to the walkthrough, I feel like this library doesn't offer anything new to the market. It's certainly not a game changer and doesn't rival what's already been done. It's simply just a new set of sounds one can used to be inspired. That's cool. Knowing Spitfire's products very well, I will venture to say that it functions amazingly, as long as it doesn't have poorly edited samples and sample starts like Studio Strings currently has. There is still a lot to fix in that library and I hope they learned from those mistakes with this one. 

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## emasters

constaneum said:


> One thing. I wonder why no staccato patch but staccatissimo. Hmm...



Perhaps being able to change the length of the staccato patch covers a broad range of shorts? Not sure if this is Spitfire's thinking, but it does seem flexible with their approach -- particularly if you assign the slider to a continuous controller.


----------



## gjelul

I personally prefer this type of marketing as I do not keep tabs on "coming in the near future" or other "statements" full of marketing tricks. The 'walkthroughs' and the price is what makes me to purchase or not these days. Kudos to Spitfire for this release, it does sound good, and it is very affordable, indeed. I hope Winds and Perc would follow as most of the time I do find the Spitfire orchestral libraries a bit (and I have them all) too 'wet' for my taste, this new approach is a very welcomed one imo.


----------



## erica-grace

Mason said:


> There is no legato when horn players play above MF. So there shouldn't be any connective tissue there.



Well, that's just wrong.



jeremiahpena said:


>




Thank you!


----------



## ka00

My money is on CSB maybe pulling it off.

I’m wondering why on this entire planet there is basically one dude, Alex Wallbank (with Jasper Blunk being a close second, and Audio Imperia probably third) who has this very realistic legato thing down? Honest question, which I realize will be provocative.

Or is my question merely revealing my personal preference for a certain type of legato transition?



Consona said:


> We are nearly in 2019 so honestly, can the legato handle this line or not?


----------



## Michael Stibor

ka00 said:


> My money is on CSB maybe pulling it off.
> 
> I’m wondering why on this entire planet there is basically one dude, Alex Wallbank (with Jasper Blunk being a close second, and Audio Imperia probably third) who has this very realistic legato thing down? Honest question, which I realize will be provocative.
> 
> Or is my question merely revealing my personal preference for a certain type of legato transition?


Not provocative at all. I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## Zhao Shen

This legato debate will go nowhere. It's pointless to argue about dynamics and what real players do and how technically the embouchure does this or that, blah blah blah. I used to be a trumpet player and honestly couldn't care less about this stuff, all I know is that when I listen to this library, I can immediately tell that it's samples and not the real deal. And that is the only thing that matters to me.

Also I want to mention that in general, the decade-old Hollywood Brass seems to do legato better than this library. And that's unfortunate.


----------



## Mason

Zhao Shen said:


> This legato debate will go nowhere. It's pointless to argue about dynamics and what real players do and how technically the embouchure does this or that, blah blah blah. I used to be a trumpet player and honestly couldn't care less about this stuff, all I know is that when I listen to this library, I can immediately tell that it's samples and not the real deal. And that is the only thing that matters to me.
> 
> Also I want to mention that in general, the decade-old Hollywood Brass seems to do legato better than this library. And that's unfortunate.



It’s such a paradox when people don’t care about what sounds real, still they complain if it doesn’t sound real. “I don’t care if real horn players don’t play legato in fortissimo, I want my samples to do so. But they should sound real.”


----------



## Mason

erica-grace said:


> Well, that's just wrong.



Is it, really.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

I watched the walkthrouhs too and while I think that all spitfire products have a stellar and nice sound when it comes to pure sampling I am especially since I started this year working more with modeled instruments (like Sm, IBrass) I feel that a lot of those normal sampling mechanics with predefined performance and articualtion systems in the style of putting lego together, the libraries all lack imo of being able to create cohesive musical lines. However just an example: While they sampled different RR´s for the shorts and probably also for the longs you can´t really perform convincing sounding repeating notes of the same or even different pitch, also faster repetition have the typical mechanic robotic feel which with real performances it has so much more nuances of shorts regarding note length, note attack, and the note envelope characteristics, detuning and pitch fluctuation of the sound. You need to have imo control over single instruments and treat each performance carefully (which I find crucial for a real performance) to come closer to an expressive real life performance. For one hit situations they might work quite well. However, this is where you have to make your own decision: Do you want more realism which comes closer to a performance aspect of a real playing thing, or do you want to shortcut time and have some sort of nice sound but absolutely no real musical interpretation whatsoever. I think that sampling can only improve the realism in that regards if they try to explore new waters and give the composer more input options to be able to have more control over those performance aspects. When you start mocking up a lot of real orchestra things this problem becomes very very obvious imo. And that is not a spitfire thing, it applies to almost all libraries which utilizes the normal articulations system. Question could be also: normal sampling has imo gotten to a point where I think they can´t improve with conventional techniques any more realism and while I am always interested in seeing new coming products I feel that this level of creating library sounds have been at a point where you can´t get more out of it. Its a bit like a game which you passed, you can repeat the game playing with slightly different aspects but you still reach the same end.


----------



## pderbidge

NoamL said:


> no they mean slurs.
> 
> Slurs and legato are two different things as well. e.g. you can write "broad legato tongue" over a part with no slurs.
> 
> Sample developers have their own language to describe virtual instruments and unfortunately it sometimes directly contradicts the language you need to use with real musicians.



So true! I played trombone and hardly remember half the articulations I read through in the VI libraries I own. To be fair, it was just the high school band soo... Same for vocals though too. I've sung my whole life (solo and in choirs) but we never even used the term "legato" to describe our transitions between notes. That was term I had to learn to understand as a midi composer.


----------



## Casiquire

I found myself reading this thread with serious interest before realizing that there was no ridiculous time-wasting hype, and that had there been, I may have been far less interested. I love this way more. I'll give the examples a serious listen when I get a moment because there's a lot of good brass coming out lately and this is intriguing at a great price.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Mason said:


> It’s such a paradox when people don’t care about what sounds real, still they complain if it doesn’t sound real. “I don’t care if real horn players don’t play legato in fortissimo, I want my samples to do so. But they should sound real.”



It really isn't. No one's saying that having the technical knowledge to identify what sounds real is irrelevant. I'm saying that bickering about whether or not horns can slur their notes above some specific dynamic threshold is pointless when the library is just clearly bad at legato.


----------



## star.keys

This library sounds lifeless (rubbish) to my ears


----------



## ionian

It's not like Spitfire to not hype the hell out something. I'm sure they were working on this as you can't throw a library like this together overnight but I'd say they were probably 75% along and aiming for a Q1 2019 release and then Cinematic dropped the bomb. Well, let's put it this way, I guarantee the Spitfire guys have been living on Chinese takeout since Cinematic's announcement. They probably haven't seen their homes in at least 2 weeks. 

I'm going to withhold judgement because it's clear that the library isn't anywhere near release. You can tell this was a panicked rush job to try to grab some people before CSB gets a good chunk of it. I'll wait for them to fix everything and see how the final sound is when they actually have a finished product.


----------



## Britpack50

Honestly interested to know on what basis, from the walkthroughs, this is deemed to be such a rushed job? Not saying anyone is wrong but curious to learn.

I think folk here are right that they probably bumped their timelines up. But I suspect its hard to keep launches a secret and developers have a fairly good idea when the competitions is going to launch. Its the same in every other industry, so maybe it wasn't quite as much of a rush...

Either way, it seems like a lot of library for the money £250 for this much content is amazing! Personally it seems like a very functional, useable library. Understand that some may have it covered elsewhere.


----------



## djrustycans

There’s a lot of talk here about how poor the horn legato is based on a short excerpt on the walkthrough. Until we know for sure, wouldn’t it be better to refrain from making harsh judgements about the entire library’s legato. I’m pretty certain you’d be able to make the horns sound better than in this brief example. The rest of the library sounds incredible with lots of flexibility and control at a ridiculous price. The dynamic range seems superb which is something missing in most of my Brass libraries. Very inspired by what I’ve seen here..


----------



## Mason

star.keys said:


> This library sounds lifeless (rubbish) to my ears



Maybe you are just not used to hearing dry samples. I had the same reaction the first time too when I first heard dry samples, I believe it was LASS.


----------



## jamwerks

I know in the videos they speak of "dry" samples. The smallish room this is recorded in indeed has a short reverb time, but there is a high ratio of early reflections to direct signal here in the room mic's, and some may not like how that builds-up. I would think of this an ambient-smallish library.

Though this wouldn't have been my first choice sound wise, I did hear some mic's (the Tree 2?) that I would find usable. I'll be interested to hear the 2 mixed mic positions available in "Pro".

I'm really attracted to the instruments provided. Finally a complete library. The choice of 2 horn solos is perfect, no need for 4 imo. And the Euphonium & Trombone contrebasse & Cimbasso & Contrebasse tuba! Kudos to SF for being so thorough!!


----------



## djrustycans

Just to add - the Horns a4 do sound very 'disconnected' and not very legato in the pro walkthrough but it's a shame that the sole focus is on this whilst ignoring the seemingly fabulous library as a whole. Hopefully Spitfire can allay some fears on the Horns legato situation - perhaps as for some, this would be a key component of a brass sample library.


----------



## lucianogiacomozzi

I've been away from Spitfire for a while - so no more CTA in basic libraries? Really?


----------



## Architekton

star.keys said:


> This library sounds lifeless (rubbish) to my ears



Dont you think you overreact a bit? Maybe demo 1st than come to conclusions?


----------



## jamwerks

lucianogiacomozzi said:


> I've been away from Spitfire for a while - so no more CTA in basic libraries? Really?


This is CCTTA!


----------



## Consona

But some other patches are editable...


----------



## Mason

Architekton said:


> Dont you think you overreact a bit? Maybe demo 1st than come to conclusions?



It’s comments like his that make developers stay away from this forum.


----------



## Raphioli

Consona said:


> But some other patches are editable...


I think the only reason that patch is locked is because it has legato in it.

As far as I know, the only patches which are locked for the Spitfire libraries I have are legatos (multis with legatos included in them/Performance Legatos, etc.)


----------



## CT

Mason said:


> It’s comments like his that make developers stay away from this forum.



Prepare for a stern rapping on the knuckles regarding Spitfire fanboyism and oversensitive developers who can't handle the always salient and useful critiques of VI-Control.


----------



## prodigalson

Consona said:


> But some other patches are editable...



I wouldn’t count on it. Paul is probably just working with an unlocked beta patch. As this will be a player library encoded by NI, it will be locked


----------



## richhickey

I wish I liked the sound of this room more. It added a quirky, old-school feel to BHCT, but on Studio Strings and here again it just sounds like a basketball court. It's not dry and it's not a sound I'll usually want, so it's just in the way. Shrug.


----------



## Consona

I think they had to use another recording hardware, BHCT sounds so different to SStS and this.


----------



## AllanH

From the brief walk-through, I'm pretty impressed with the sound. I think Air Studio One is a very good fit for brass - just the right amount room interaction to sound well-rounded and crisp at the same time.


----------



## jonathanwright

My initial impressions are I quite like it.

It's got that Danny Elfman 'slighty-dry' sound.


----------



## Consona

I too think the sound is fairly nice, and that's without any processing. With some EQing and reverb, IMO having the Pro version with all the mic positions will provide enough to make it sound really good.
But what I truly want is the great playability @AlexanderSchiborr was talking about. I think Time Machine patches are one step to better mock ups, the ability to precisely control the lenght of the notes is great, I wish other developers had this as well. It makes lines feel way less robotic when you CC the stretch slider and move it around so the performance feels more natural. But I really need an agile legato too. I'm learning how to compose in the Williams' Star Wars, Horner Star Trek way, and that's a lot about lively passages rather than braaaming and monster farting.

Then again, every time I want to spend my money I load up my CineBrass to remind me that's all I need.  Before some amazingly more playable library appears on the market.

Nonethless, I hope someone will make a deep review of this library and its capabilities. Just out of curiosity.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Consona said:


> I think they had to use another recording hardware, BHCT sounds so different to SStS and this.


For sure. I'm assuming they went for very specific hardware and microphone choices with BHCT even though it's not a retro library.


----------



## Michael Stibor

AllanH said:


> From the brief walk-through, I'm pretty impressed with the sound. I think Air Studio One is a very good fit for brass - just the right amount room interaction to sound well-rounded and crisp at the same time.



As owner of BHCT, I can say that the brass sounds excellent in that room and is easily the best part of BHCT.


----------



## Mackieguy

I liked the room sound as well. It's drier than SSB (which I like for different reasons) which is nice. That allows me to use it with other libraries and glue them together with my own reverbs without having to worry about over-reverberation.

However, I really wish that they would have included a Horns-a2 patch. Going from Solo to a4 in the Horns was a bit odd IMHO.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Sounds very cool! Sounds much better than the studio strings I think.


----------



## NoamL

Hey guys, maybe some cold water thrown on the "This is them looking over their shoulders about CSB" hypothesis that my post unfortunately amplified. I talked with someone about this library yesterday and they mentioned that it's the *exact same price as Spitfire Studio Strings! *Post-release that is. D'oh 

Maybe I should quit speculating about the internal affairs of a company that I'm not privy to.... maybe we should all stop doing that?


----------



## Gerbil

Tbh, even if this is them trying to get it out ahead of CSB who can blame them? It must be getting harder selling these things now, especially as so many of us already have multiple section libraries and with a number options out there.


----------



## star.keys

Architekton said:


> Dont you think you overreact a bit? Maybe demo 1st than come to conclusions?



I will have to buy to be able to demo it, which isn't a good idea after burning on money on a number of their 2018 products


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

So, who of you guys is going to buy the spitfire studio brass?


----------



## star.keys

Mason said:


> Maybe you are just not used to hearing dry samples. I had the same reaction the first time too when I first heard dry samples, I believe it was LASS.


Neighbours are a family of 4 brass players


----------



## Michel Simons

star.keys said:


> Neighbours are a family of 4 brass players



Maybe they have a big hall.


----------



## Oscillator

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> So, who of you guys is going to buy the spitfire studio brass?



I think it's safe to say many will wait to see how CSB turns out in a short while.


----------



## star.keys

michelsimons said:


> Maybe they have a big hall.



The point is, what sounds rubbish is rubbish, in any room or hall, and this library sounds rubbish to my ears having listened to the dry brass day in a out


----------



## Michael Stibor

Oscillator said:


> I think it's safe to say many will wait to see how CSB turns out in a short while.


Had it been CSB against Studio Brass Pro, it would've been a no brainer for me to get CSB. However, for myself due to other financial obligations (namely there's an expensive guitar pedal I want) I'm going to have to go for Spitfire Studio Brass, the regular version. I doubt I'd upgrade either as I feel there's enough in the regular version for my needs.


----------



## studiostuff

Rubbish...? You prefer the sound of brass through a wall?


----------



## jbuhler

star.keys said:


> The point is, what sounds rubbish is rubbish, in any room or hall, and this library sounds rubbish to my ears having listened to the dry brass day in a out


You seem to have a lot at stake in saying it sounds like rubbish. Personally, I heard some good things in the walkthrough and some potentially alarming thing. (The horn legato example everyone is bitching about fell into neither category for me because I wasn't at all sure what Paul was trying to show with that example—part of the rushed aspect of those walkthroughs, which were also not at all thorough.) I'll wait to hear contextual demos before making a final assessment.


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

I will definitely get the standard version of Spitfire, and later the CSB. They sound totally different to me. Horses for courses.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

SF legato rarely is all that great. But overall the library most certainly doesn't sound "rubbish". A deeper analysis of course isn't possible just yet, but I thought that in the walkthrough the samples sounded focused, raw, tight and quite appealing.


----------



## Mason

miket said:


> Prepare for a stern rapping on the knuckles regarding Spitfire fanboyism and oversensitive developers who can't handle the always salient and useful critiques of VI-Control.



Some degree of decency always help.


star.keys said:


> The point is, what sounds rubbish is rubbish, in any room or hall, and this library sounds rubbish to my ears having listened to the dry brass day in a out



Well, let’s see if the more serious reviewers come to the same conclusion.


----------



## Michael Stibor

tomhartmanmusic said:


> I will definitely get the standard version of Spitfire, and later the CSB. They sound totally different to me. Horses for courses.


I don't know what horses for courses means, but for the rest of it, I agree. The standard then "upgrade" to CSB.


----------



## Consona

mikefrommontreal said:


> I don't know what horses for courses means


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/horses_for_courses


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

mikefrommontreal said:


> I don't know what horses for courses means, but for the rest of it, I agree. The standard then "upgrade" to CSB.



" The practice of choosing the best person for a particular job, the best response for a situation, or the best means to achieve a specific end."


----------



## lucianogiacomozzi

jamwerks said:


> This is CCTTA!



Only in the Pro version, basic is just T...


----------



## smallberries

NoamL said:


> I talked with someone about this library yesterday and they mentioned that it's the *exact same price as Spitfire Studio Strings! *Post-release that is.



Yeesh, having bought the choir on discount, and mulling the same here, and noting the woodwinds on the horizon, I am feeling like that frog who got boiled a few degrees at a time.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

NoamL said:


> it's the *exact same price as Spitfire Studio Strings! *Post-release that is.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Spitfire Studio Strings $200/$500 USD during the intro price? Studio Brass is significantly cheaper at $150/$300 USD intro price.


----------



## lp59burst

tl;dr: we have a short demo walkthrough from SFA and a few short "dressed" demo songs for CSB and based on that deep sample of data it appears that...


----------



## Mason

Those who think the legatos are bad in this library should go and get a cup of tea.

In general, they are actually great, and by watching the walkthroughs again today my initial summary and impression is:

- 2 Trumpets: The only instrument/patch I don't like the tone of. To me, they sound too thin. So I got a bad first impression since I watched the Pro version walkthrough first.
- Trumpet Solo 1 & 2: Love them, and really wonderful legatos.
- Piccolo Trumpet: Love the tone, great legato, not convinced about the shorts as they have a quirky effect I haven't heard on a real one.
- Bass Trumpet: I'm not familiar with this instrument so have nothing to compare with, but sounds great.
- Tenor, Bass and Contrabass Trombone: Beautiful, great staccatos
- Horns a4: Nice tone, beautiful legato in the soft dynamic range, too early to judge in higher dynamics. Sounds nice for chord playing, and fantastic shorts.
- Horn Solo 1 & 2: Nice, but hope there is some portamento here? Nice vibrato option.
- Tuba and Contrabass Tuba: Nice, great shorts and marcato
- Cimbasso: Not a fan of the real cimbasso so difficult to love the sampled one. And the chord playing sounds too much like an organ.
- Euphonium: Beautiful, very expressive and great staccatos

And in general: Great list of articulations, and cool stretch control for the shorts for those who like these details.

Might invest in this one, even if I didn't have a brass library on my wish list at all.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

You might say the SStB legato compares favorably to that of Forzo, Caspian, Adventure Brass, Trailer Brass, and Ark 1 brass.


----------



## erica-grace

Mason said:


> Those who think the legatos are bad in this library should go and get a cup of tea.



If you think the legato is good in the example I previously posted, you need more than tea.


----------



## Oscillator

Mason said:


> Those who think the legatos are bad in this library should go and get a cup of tea.



You are arguing against nobody. No one said "the legatos in this library are bad". They were specifically referring to the horn legato that is the very first thing you hear on the first demo video ever released for this library, which sounds subpar and is very obvious.


----------



## Mason

Oscillator said:


> You are arguing against nobody. No one said "the legatos in this library are bad". They were specifically referring to the horn legato that is the very first thing you hear on the first demo video ever released for this library, which sounds subpar and is very obvious.



There has been quite a few who in general think their legatos are bad.


----------



## Mason

erica-grace said:


> If you think the legato is good in the example I previously posted, you need more than tea.



Not in your example that unfortunately didn't include the wonderful legato he played first. Listen to the legatos in the soft dynamic range in the horn a4 patch, and you'll hear that it is lovely. Of course, those who hate a certain developer will always be biased. Not saying you do, I don't care who do or don't.


----------



## Geoff Grace

FWIW, in my 23 years of posting on Internet forums, I've succeeded in changing the mind of someone who disagreed with me just once. 

Maybe others here have had better luck, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Mason

Geoff Grace said:


> FWIW, in my 23 years of posting on Internet forums, I've succeeded in changing the mind of someone who disagreed with me just once.
> 
> Maybe others here have had better luck, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



Which is why a blinded test would be a good idea to make people less biased.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Mason said:


> Which is why a blinded test would be a good idea to make people less biased.


Like this blinded string test? I'm a fan of that one.


----------



## AllanH

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> So, who of you guys is going to buy the spitfire studio brass?



Probably not - I've just purchased Century Brass and ARK 1+2. I really do like the tone of Spitfire Studio Brass, but at this point, it would definitely a bit of a "luxury" purchase.

Edit: Spitfire Studio Brass sounds clearer and more detailed than anything else I have, and that is a major plus.


----------



## Casiquire

Geoff Grace said:


> FWIW, in my 23 years of posting on Internet forums, I've succeeded in changing the mind of someone who disagreed with me just once.
> 
> Maybe others here have had better luck, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



Peoples' minds don't change right on the spot, but often they do consider what has been said over time


----------



## Lode_Runner

Geoff Grace said:


> FWIW, in my 23 years of posting on Internet forums, I've succeeded in changing the mind of someone who disagreed with me just once.
> 
> Maybe others here have had better luck, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


You're probably not being aggressive enough. Flaming people is the way to get people to change their mind. That's why people are doing it all the time. I mean if it didn't work, people would stop doing it right?


----------



## AdamKmusic

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> So, who of you guys is going to buy the spitfire studio brass?


Me! The price is too good to pass up, I like the sound of the room & been looking to upgrade my Brass libraries


----------



## CT

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> So, who of you guys is going to buy the spitfire studio brass?



I will be. I'm pleased with the Studio line thus far.

CSB and MSB are interesting, but both are part of a larger ecosystem I would want to already be a part of before jumping in with brass.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Does anyone know how much disk space the pro version takes up.... ?


----------



## jamwerks

I'm 99% in anyway, but would be interesting to hear with some of their favorite reverb plugins.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

ka00 said:


> I hope and somewhat assume we’ll get a video with Paul crafting some examples with fine-tuned reverb setups, demonstrating the flexibility of the library for crafting your own preferred sound.
> 
> I seem to recall when he was demo’ing Spitfire Symphonic Brass that he pointed out how important the reverb of the room was with Brass in particular.
> 
> And on his personal channel when he did that comprehensive reverb tutorial, I think he stressed how important early reflections were to the character of the sound. Have to go back and re-watch.



well, this room isnt dead. if you listen to the microphone comparison he does in the pro walkthrough for this library it may be better illustrated. its just a lot more dry than Air, which is wetter than a typhoon over open seawater.

sure, some extra reverb is usually in order, but from what i hear in this library it is still quite lush. probably mixes really well with their symphonic brass so can get some enormous sections; but it also sounds like this library has a much higher ceiling for loud playing too, while the symphonic lineup can be quite tame at times.


----------



## Hanu_H

Sounds great in low dynamics, but the sustain/legato dynamics seem to end at mf/f depending on the instrument. Shorts sound nice too, but I can't really hear anything in this library that I don't already have covered with other libraries. Some patches also sound a bit synthetic to my ears and not a fan of the legatos, which is a bit surprising when we are talking about a drier library. Great price and if someone doesn't have a drier brass library, seems like a great value for money.

-Hannes


----------



## Mason

Hanu_H said:


> Sounds great in low dynamics, but the sustain/legato dynamics seem to end at mf/f depending on the instrument.
> 
> -Hannes



This is also a natural response on real brass instruments as well as they have to breathe more rapidly at forte and above which brakes the legato more.


----------



## Hanu_H

Mason said:


> This is also a natural response on real brass instruments as well as they have to breathe more rapidly at forte and above which brakes the legato more.


No, I mean that the dynamics don't go up to ff. And also the legato sounds like there is only one dynamic recorded.

-Hannes


----------



## JT

I listened to Pauls walkthrough, waiting eagerly for the piccolo trumpet. While he does a great job with these walkthroughs, what he played demonstrating the piccolo, didn't showcase how a piccolo is used. I expected something like this.


----------



## Krayh

SF Strings...mwahhh, SF Choir mwahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, SF studio brass mwaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...it's a sliding slope going down...


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

The legato sounded gross to me... almost non-existent.
I've never heard a real brass section that sounded like this. I wouldn't believe that this was live recorded then.


----------



## Mason

JT said:


> I listened to Pauls walkthrough, waiting eagerly for the piccolo trumpet. While he does a great job with these walkthroughs, what he played demonstrating the piccolo, didn't showcase how a piccolo is used. I expected something like this.




That’s how the piccolo are used in baroque music indeed, but you can use it in so many other ways.


----------



## CT

I would love it if developers started using actual excerpts from classical pieces or scores (as long as it isn't the Force theme) for each instrument to show them in their natural habitats, rather than just kind of winging it. That usually just sounds like the instrument in question played on a keyboard.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Mason said:


> That’s how the piccolo are used in baroque music indeed, but you can use it in so many other ways.



but you can only use it for 30 minutes


----------



## JT

Mason said:


> That’s how the piccolo are used in baroque music indeed, but you can use it in so many other ways.


I'm a trumpet player and I play piccolo. Everytime I've been hired for it, that's the sound the producer wants. I didn't hear that sound in Paul's walkthrough. I hope it's there.


----------



## Mason

JT said:


> I'm a trumpet player and I play piccolo. Everytime I've been hired for it, that's the sound the producer wants. I didn't hear that sound in Paul's walkthrough. I hope it's there.



The performance makes the difference, of course, and I’ve commented that the shorts has a bit “funny” character I haven’t heard on a piccolo before.

Hope you’ll enjoy this one:


----------



## gjelul

JT said:


> I'm a trumpet player and I play piccolo. Everytime I've been hired for it, that's the sound the producer wants. I didn't hear that sound in Paul's walkthrough. I hope it's there.



Is that you on that video??
Great performance / sound on all three instruments!


----------



## jamwerks

You would think it would be a bigger sell for them to edit in elaborate examples for each instrument, showcasing all those diverse arts.


----------



## jbuhler

jamwerks said:


> You would think it would be a bigger sell for them to edit in elaborate examples for each instrument, showcasing all those diverse arts.


Yes, the walkthrough seemed rushed and like Paul hadn't had much time to play with the currently configured instrument. There are also no demos available. It's one reason I think the timing of the release is being driven by other factors, whether that's maintaining their own ambitious release schedule or they are trying to beat the competition to market is hard to say.


----------



## Mason

DarkestShadow said:


> The legato sounded gross to me... almost non-existent.
> I've never heard a real brass section that sounded like this. I wouldn't believe that this was live recorded then.



Is it really necessary to use words like that? Would you feel it would be constructive or helpful if your music were described as gross?


----------



## Lee Blaske

Everything I'm hearing sounds very good, but I'm particularly impressed by the sound of the lower brass... bass trombone, contrabass trombone, and tuba. The low end sounds fantastic. I've got numerous brass libraries and the sound of these instruments is often very thin. To date, I don't have any contrabass tuba I'm particularly thrilled with. This looks really promising.


----------



## ed buller

other than the fact that it's in the smaller studio ( although that has perhaps the finest mixing desk ever made !!!) I think this sounds fabulous !

best

e


----------



## AdamKmusic

Just noticed this on the SF website, looks like woodwinds are set to come as well (I assume someone already noticed this)


----------



## ChristopherDoucet

Gerbil said:


> Tbh, even if this is them trying to get it out ahead of CSB who can blame them? It must be getting harder selling these things now, especially as so many of us already have multiple section libraries and with a number options out there.



Wait....What is CSB?! Cinematic Studio Brass?!


----------



## erikradbo

So, I'm also on the lookout for a dedicated brass library. I have HB which sounds great but takes some time. So, playability is the no1 factor I look for, with HB and some of my other libraries (ARK1, Albion1) can manage to sculpt most sounds and articulations, but I look for the out of the box inspirational plug and play. Have been leaning towards Adventure Brass, but it also seems like CineBrass has a lot of happy users.

But now, here comes SStB and CSB, and then audiobro. If you have Adventure Brass and/or Cinebrass, or perhaps Caspian and Berlin...what are you missing? What will these new ones bring to the table? Trying to get if one of these new libraries would trump these others mentioned.


----------



## Nao Gam

ChristopherDoucet said:


> Wait....What is CSB?! Cinematic Studio Brass?!


Late to the party?



Gerbil said:


> Tbh, even if this is them trying to get it out ahead of CSB who can blame them? It must be getting harder selling these things now, especially as so many of us already have multiple section libraries and with a number options out there.


New musicians turn 18 everyday tho 



erikradbo said:


> So, I'm also on the lookout for a dedicated brass library. I have HB which sounds great but takes some time. So, playability is the no1 factor I look for, with HB and some of my other libraries (ARK1, Albion1) can manage to sculpt most sounds and articulations, but I look for the out of the box inspirational plug and play. Have been leaning towards Adventure Brass, but it also seems like CineBrass has a lot of happy users.
> 
> But now, here comes SStB and CSB, and then audiobro. If you have Adventure Brass and/or Cinebrass, or perhaps Caspian and Berlin...what are you missing? What will these new ones bring to the table? Trying to get if one of these new libraries would trump these others mentioned.


Honestly after a certain point it's about variety of tone.. which is a luxury unless you're a professional with $$$. Unless you really like the ui and it makes workflow easier


----------



## Gerbil

erikradbo said:


> So, I'm also on the lookout for a dedicated brass library. I have HB which sounds great but takes some time. So, playability is the no1 factor I look for, with HB and some of my other libraries (ARK1, Albion1) can manage to sculpt most sounds and articulations, but I look for the out of the box inspirational plug and play. Have been leaning towards Adventure Brass, but it also seems like CineBrass has a lot of happy users.
> 
> But now, here comes SStB and CSB, and then audiobro. If you have Adventure Brass and/or Cinebrass, or perhaps Caspian and Berlin...what are you missing? What will these new ones bring to the table? Trying to get if one of these new libraries would trump these others mentioned.



If you're happy with HB and playability is your principal concern then I'd advocate that you go for Adventure Brass or Caspian Brass (if it's sections you're after). They are so good for getting what needs to be done quickly in one take.


----------



## desert

http://www.cinematicstudioseries.com/brass.html

It’s now available, now stop bumping lol


----------



## RandomComposer

ChristopherDoucet said:


> Wait....What is CSB?! Cinematic Studio Brass?!


I believe it stands for 'Cinematic Studio Bump'.


----------



## HelixK

DarkestShadow said:


> The legato sounded gross to me...



You add nothing to the discussion with that ignorant remark. I'm not one to overprotect developers but that kind of attitude is the reason why some are leaving. And I don't blame them, it's mentally draining to deal with punks who do nothing but belittle and undermine their hard work. Shame on you.


----------



## WindcryMusic

I didn't think I'd be interested in Spitfire Studio Brass after my first cursory listen to the walkthroughs, but upon a 2nd, more serious listen and an inspection of the articulations list for the Professional version, I'm inclined to add this to my setup after all. Selling points for me:


It sounds to me like many of the basic articulations go a bit further into mezzoforte territory than does SSB, which is my current primary library.
It will have a much broader instrument and articulation set than what CSB will have.
I suspect this is going to be a drier library (at least if the closer mics are used) than CSB, based upon CSS which is sort of a middle-of-the-road library when it comes to built-in ambience (not nearly as wet as SSS, for example, but the ambience is certainly there). And I'm trying to push my template towards being a drier one.
I suspect SStB will be well-suited as a complement to SCS (better than SSB is), given the smaller section sizes as well as the dryness (I know SCS isn't dry, but it always sounds drier than SSS to me nonetheless).
My CSB loyalty price won't expire, but this (rather impressive) intro price will.
But I still have at least one worry: what version of Kontakt will be required to run SStB? I don't have K6, and probably won't until next summer at the earliest (I need a sale on K12U to happen to justify the expense, given how little the new version adds that is meaningful to me). I'd need to know that K5 is supported before I'd consider it.

Another thought I'm having: the SA webpage says that SStB will be "available" from 12/13. That doesn't say "released", and since one can't even pre-order it right now, I wonder if "available" means "available for pre-order"? In which case, how close is the actual release? Would it be in the next few weeks ... or could this be a pre-emptive strike to lock in pre-orders for a library that may not actually release until 2019? Or ... perhaps this will indeed release on the 13th, and there no pre-order period on it at all? If so, how long will that intro discount actually remain available?


----------



## axb312

WindcryMusic said:


> I didn't think I'd be interested in Spitfire Studio Brass after my first cursory listen to the walkthroughs, but upon a 2nd, more serious listen and an inspection of the articulations list for the Professional version, I'm inclined to add this to my setup after all. Selling points for me:
> 
> 
> It sounds to me like many of the basic articulations go a bit further into mezzoforte territory than does SSB, which is my current primary library.
> It will have a much broader instrument and articulation set than what CSB will have.
> I suspect this is going to be a drier library (at least if the closer mics are used) than CSB, based upon CSS which is sort of a middle-of-the-road library when it comes to built-in ambience (not nearly as wet as SSS, for example, but the ambience is certainly there). And I'm trying to push my template towards being a drier one.
> I suspect SStB will be well-suited as a complement to SCS (better than SSB is), given the smaller section sizes as well as the dryness (I know SCS isn't dry, but it always sounds drier than SSS to me nonetheless).
> My CSB loyalty price won't expire, but this (rather impressive) intro price will.
> But I still have at least one worry: what version of Kontakt will be required to run SStB? I don't have K6, and probably won't until next summer at the earliest (I need a sale on K12U to happen to justify the expense, given how little the new version adds that is meaningful to me). I'd need to know that K5 is supported before I'd consider it.
> 
> Another thought I'm having: the SA webpage says that SStB will be "available" from 12/13. That doesn't say "released", and since one can't even pre-order it right now, I wonder if "available" means "available for pre-order"? In which case, how close is the actual release? Would it be in the next few weeks ... or could this be a pre-emptive strike to lock in pre-orders for a library that may not actually release until 2019? Or ... perhaps this will indeed release on the 13th, and there no pre-order period on it at all? If so, how long will that intro discount actually remain available?



You may be overthinking the use of the word "available" here. If posted on a public forum or a website, it typically means available to buy/ purchase/ download immediately.

If however, this isn't the case, let's give Spitfire hell after the 13th?


----------



## WindcryMusic

axb312 said:


> You may be overthinking the use of the word "available" here. If posted on a public forum or a website, it typically means available to buy/ purchase/ download immediately.
> 
> If however, this isn't the case, let's give Spitfire hell after the 13th?



I may well be. But I'm not sure "hell" would be required, as there wouldn't be any sort of penalty (they aren't even accepting pre-orders until then, so I presume we will know the actual release date before we can place an order).


----------



## Michael Stibor

Ok, yeah. I'm out. SSB sounds great (and the regular version's price point makes it _very_ enticing). But CSB sounds too good not make it a priority for me.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

HelixK said:


> it's mentally draining to deal with punks who do nothing but belittle and undermine their hard work. Shame on you.


@DarkestShadow has posted a lot of thoughtful and helpful things on this forum, like this walkthrough on using the detuning trick. Let's not get carried away; he adds plenty to the forum.


----------



## Michael Stibor

HelixK said:


> You add nothing to the discussion with that ignorant remark. I'm not one to overprotect developers but that kind of attitude is the reason why some are leaving. And I don't blame them, it's mentally draining to deal with punks who do nothing but belittle and undermine their hard work. Shame on you.


It could have been worded a bit more tactfully I agree, but his opinion is as valid as anyone else's, even if you disagree with it.


----------



## DR BOOWHO

40 Love........
Advantage CSB...


----------



## HelixK

Land of Missing Parts said:


> @DarkestShadow has posted a lot of thoughtful and helpful things on this forum, like this walkthrough on using the detuning trick. Let's not get carried away; he adds plenty to the forum.



One walkthough video over a subject that has been well documented by Peter Alexander for years (quick tip  ) does not exempt him from accountability for his conduct. This careless and disrespectful behaviour shouldn't be overlooked.

And if you want to talk about truly giving back to the community, Spitfire earned their place at the top and deserve some professional courtesy. Christian and Paul brought much more to the table than all of us combined and now are gone because of this sort of attitude.


----------



## prodigalson

HelixK said:


> One walkthough video over a subject that has been well documented by Peter Alexander for years (quick tip  ) does not exempt him from accountability for his conduct. This careless and disrespectful behaviour shouldn't be overlooked.
> 
> And if you want to talk about truly giving back to the community, Spitfire earned their place at the top and deserve some professional courtesy. Christian and Paul brought much more to the table than all of us combined and now are gone because of this sort of attitude.



Helix, you've been a member here for one month. Perhaps, you could cool off on the dramatic condemnations of other members and sweeping judgements about who gives more to the "community".


----------



## boxheadboy50

I'll be one of the few to voice my skepticisms here:
A lot of what I'm hearing sounds reaaaallly synthy. I know part of that comes from the dry room, but you've got to be very careful with that on a brass library, I think.
Also, the trumpets are a big no no no no no from me.
The low brass actually sound pretty good. Spitfire has always done well recording low brass, and they've equally struggled with high brass.

To be fair, I don't think the walkthroughs showcase the library very well. He's mostly got the mod wheel cranked all the way up on the longs, which is NOT how a brass player would actually play 90% of the time. 

Also
*WHY HE PLAYING CHORDS WITH ENSEMBLE PATCHES IT SOUNDS LIKE AN ORGAN AHHHH*


Ahem, sorry about that...

I think we need some contextual demos to hear the library in a mix.


----------



## HelixK

prodigalson said:


> Helix, you've been a member here for one month. Perhaps, you could cool off on the dramatic condemnations of other members and sweeping judgements about who gives more to the "community".



That's a flawed argument on so many levels. If membership time was any indication of character and value, you wouldn't see the _forum's most liked member _running away with cash.

We all have to start somewhere. I've helped a lot of people during my short period here. Or do I need to attach a 20+ year résumé working at BioWare and Ubisoft to my signature to add weight to my words? I don't believe in a dick waving, that's not why I've signed up for.

If I learned one thing in this industry is to show professional courtesy and sympathy towards people who are willing to stick their necks out there, as Christian and Paul often do. Seeing their hard work, that we all benefit from, tagged as "gross" is truly disconcerting and I will call bs whenever I see it. Feel free to disagree


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

HelixK said:


> You add nothing to the discussion with that ignorant remark. I'm not one to overprotect developers but that kind of attitude is the reason why some are leaving. And I don't blame them, it's mentally draining to deal with punks who do nothing but belittle and undermine their hard work. Shame on you.


https://vi-control.net/community/threads/pure-ignorance.77652/


----------



## Consona

miket said:


> I would love it if developers started using actual excerpts from classical pieces or scores (as long as it isn't the Force theme) for each instrument to show them in their natural habitats


They can't do that since it would be rather fricking embarrassing.  (I'm all for proving me wrong .)

The only brass sample library I've heard that sounded really close to a real thing was Sample Modeling Brass. I mean...


----------



## funnybear

Just did a back to back listen to the SStB and CSB walkthroughs.

Obviously SStB has more articulations compared to CSB but so far CSB is hands down the winner for me simply because when it comes to brass, melodic lines are key for me.

For strings you get away writing clusters and long sustains but most of my brass stems are actually melodic. So Spitfire's product formula seems less effective here.

Maybe once there is more info / demos / etc. for SStB I can reassess, but so far SStB does not appeal to me.


----------



## HelixK

Consona said:


> They can't do that since it would be rather fricking embarrassing.  (I'm all for proving me wrong .)
> 
> The only brass sample library I've heard that sounded really close to a real thing was Sample Modeling Brass. I mean...




That channel was the sole reason I got into Sample Modeling. I remember telling Giorgio to give a cut of his profits to Sample Control  I know a lot of guys that bought his libraries because of those videos... too bad they didn't come with SC's programming skills.


----------



## prodigalson

HelixK said:


> That's a flawed argument on so many levels. If membership time was any indication of character and value, you wouldn't see the _forum's most liked member _running away with cash.
> 
> We all have to start somewhere. I've helped a lot of people during my short period here. Or do I need to attach a 20+ year résumé working at BioWare and Ubisoft to my signature to add weight to my words? I don't believe in a dick waving, that's not why I've signed up for.
> 
> If I learned one thing in this industry is to show professional courtesy and sympathy towards people who are willing to stick their necks out there, as Christian and Paul often do. Seeing their hard work, that we all benefit from, tagged as "gross" is truly disconcerting and I will call bs whenever I see it. Feel free to disagree



no one said membership time is an indication of character so thats a straw man argument. You're welcome here and your value is shown by your posts. However, there is something to be said for the common sense and etiquette of a newer member reprimanding older members and deciding who does or doesn't provide value to the forum.

This is a sample talk thread. Everyone is free to provide their opinions, positive or negative. You and I may disagree with @DarkestShadow s wording of his opinion but he doesn't owe Spitfire any deference simply because they made a library.


----------



## AoiichiNiiSan

I've spent a good amount of time today comparing the material for SStB and CSB and I'm sure now that I'm going to be passing over SStB. The workflow and ease of use efficiencies present in CSB, combined with CSS, is an incredible ease of use/quality of life feature. For that, I can sacrifice a couple of extra instruments. I've also been frustrated by the inconsistencies between many of Spitfire's other released libraries, but Alex has displayed his ability to make things work in a smooth, intuitive and consistent manner.



funnybear said:


> Just did a back to back listen to the SSB and CSB walkthroughs.
> 
> Obviously SSB has more articulations compared to CSB but so far CSB is hands down the winner for me simply because when it comes to brass, melodic lines are key for me.
> 
> For strings you get away writing clusters and long sustains but most of my brass stems are actually melodic. So Spitfire's product formula seems less effective here.
> 
> Maybe once there is more info / demos / etc. for SSB I can reassess, but so far SSB does not appeal to me.



My thoughts exactly.


----------



## NoamL

funnybear said:


> Just did a back to back listen to the SStB and CSB walkthroughs.



Did the same (while waiting for CSB to download so I already made up my mind LOL)

IMO the rooms and mics are not really a contest. *SStB wins* hands down. I love the sound of Air Studios 1 for this library, it's controlled but not too dry, and clearly very versatile.

I know from years of experiments with CSS that I can _probably_ get CSB to sound like I want, but out of the box, I think it's not as great as SStB. The sound is very present and close while at the same time making the room feel quite small too. I'm still downloading but I expect to probably template it out with just the room mics?

I also think from all appearances this is one of the best programmed (on release) libraries that SF has done. They are going from strength to strength recently. I totally disagree with those who thought the walkthrough revealed programming flaws.

Both libraries sound great tonally, with an edge to SStB... but CSB's articulation demos make me feel like I'm in the room with musicians who are really passionate in the moment about playing these samples.

I think busy pro composers will just buy *both* of these. I mean it sets you back less than $1k total to have two amazing products, you can even throw in Caspian. Pro composers will probably not be satisfied with the zero-frills articulation approach of the CS series and SStB offers a really nice lineup of auxiliary instruments and cool extended techniques.

As someone on a budget (both money, RAM, and time), the compatibility with CSS, and the very generous loyalty discount for CSS owners, is the deciding factor for me along with CSB's innate musicality.


----------



## Nmargiotta

NoamL said:


> Did the same (while waiting for CSB to download so I already made up my mind LOL)
> 
> I think busy pro composers will just buy *both* of these. I mean it sets you back less than $1k total to have two amazing products, you can even throw in Caspian. Pro composers will probably not be satisfied with the zero-frills articulation approach of the CS series and SStB offers a really nice lineup of auxiliary instruments and cool extended techniques.
> .



Not even a question, Absolutely. I think these libraries are very good compliments, as is CSS and SCS. I use them both heavily I couldn't choose one over the other. Now is the time to take advantage of the intro price and loyalty discounts and get 2 fantastic complimentary set of brass for under $600. Pretty great if you ask me.


----------



## Consona

NoamL said:


> along with CSB's innate musicality.


I'm wondering who does this aspect better, CSB or Cinesamples' 90s Retro Trumpets. I'm still waiting for some user videos of that library. And the other sections...


----------



## CT

Consona said:


> They can't do that since it would be rather fricking embarrassing.  (I'm all for proving me wrong .)



I think it's completely possible, since I'm usually able to do it myself after gambling and buying a library. It would be nice not to have to gamble, though.


----------



## boxheadboy50

NoamL said:


> Did the same (while waiting for CSB to download so I already made up my mind LOL)
> 
> IMO the rooms and mics are not really a contest. *SStB wins* hands down. I love the sound of Air Studios 1 for this library, it's controlled but not too dry, and clearly very versatile.
> 
> I know from years of experiments with CSS that I can _probably_ get CSB to sound like I want, but out of the box, I think it's not as great as SStB. The sound is very present and close while at the same time making the room feel quite small too. I'm still downloading but I expect to probably template it out with just the room mics?
> 
> I also think from all appearances this is one of the best programmed (on release) libraries that SF has done. They are going from strength to strength recently. I totally disagree with those who thought the walkthrough revealed programming flaws.
> 
> Both libraries sound great tonally, with an edge to SStB... but CSB's articulation demos make me feel like I'm in the room with musicians who are really passionate in the moment about playing these samples.
> 
> I think busy pro composers will just buy *both* of these. I mean it sets you back less than $1k total to have two amazing products, you can even throw in Caspian. Pro composers will probably not be satisfied with the zero-frills articulation approach of the CS series and SStB offers a really nice lineup of auxiliary instruments and cool extended techniques.
> 
> As someone on a budget (both money, RAM, and time), the compatibility with CSS, and the very generous loyalty discount for CSS owners, is the deciding factor for me along with CSB's innate musicality.


I’m actually surprised by this! I thought you were going to go full tilt towards CSB based off the the sound alone! 
I feel the SStB walkthroughs sound very very synthy. I’d love to hear your thoughts (especially if you disagree!).


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Can somebody who bought ssb do me a favor and mockup 2 things:

1. Trumpet Melody opening bars from the raiders march
2. Imperial March (Tenor / bass Bones + Trumpet in octaves) main melody?

Curious how that will sound. I would appreciate that. Thank you.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

I tend to find Spitfire libraries to be better for writing music that _*isn't*_ John Williams-style.
It's more suited to the likes of other modern composers, like Hans Zimmer, Tyler Bates, Brian Tyler, maybe Marco Beltrami (maybe. Nobody has done a string library that can sound like his string-writing though.) Those kind of guys with their modern sound - Spitfire can do that stuff bang-on.


----------



## Consona

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I tend to find Spitfire libraries to be better for writing music that _*isn't*_ John Williams-style.
> It's more suited to the likes of other modern composers, like Hans Zimmer, Tyler Bates, maybe Marco Beltrami (maybe. Nobody has done a string library that can sound like his string-writing though.) Those kind of guys with their modern sound - Spitfire can do that stuff bang-on.


Yea, that's because you don't need any extra good playability to do those things.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Consona said:


> Yea, that's because you don't need any extra good playability to do those things.



Exactly. So the argument comes down to what has great sound vs. what has great playability - and with our current technology, nothing can do both perfectly yet. So you pick what suits you. For me, I don't need to or want to mock up any John Williams or Michael Giacchino; I have no interest in sounding like them. For others that is what they would prefer to sound like, and so they might be more drawn to the sample-modelling stuff.

If you wanted to do John Williams with really great quality sound as well, you'd need to do some serious sampling - it would require an enormous budget, and a large team to prepare the enormous swath of samples, and some serious programming to make it 'work like sample-modelling but sound like real life.' We're getting close now with some libraries beginning to offer various attack-types on notes for sustains, _but_ then they often offer these at a sacrifice of round-robins. This is more because sampling brass is very time-consuming and riddled with challenges - to sample it thoroughly, players need to play an absolute ton of material, and brass players tire quickly. So if you sample 15 pitches of 'sustain' and offer 2x round robins and 3x dynamics, that requires 90 GOOD takes (there may be a few bad.) Now if you offer sustain soft-attack, normale, strong-attack, you're tripling that all. So you cut out the round-robin, maybe even some of the dynamics of certain attacks, to get back down to 90 - which sacrifices some realism and/or flexibility.

Let's not even forget brass players tire quickly. This means they're gonna require breaks, or even for multiple sessions across various days, especially when you get to the really loud stuff.

One day someone might work up the budget and time to do something insane, but for now, Spitfire and Orchestral Tools seem to be on the right path, even if they don't provide everything and the kitchen sink just yet. Play-ability is a whole other ball park and takes a lot of doctoring to get right as well, especially if you want to avoid creating unnatural sounds when blending your recordings.


----------



## Michael Stibor

NoamL said:


> Did the same (while waiting for CSB to download so I already made up my mind LOL)
> 
> IMO the rooms and mics are not really a contest. *SStB wins* hands down. I love the sound of Air Studios 1 for this library, it's controlled but not too dry, and clearly very versatile.
> 
> I know from years of experiments with CSS that I can _probably_ get CSB to sound like I want, but out of the box, I think it's not as great as SStB. The sound is very present and close while at the same time making the room feel quite small too. I'm still downloading but I expect to probably template it out with just the room mics?
> 
> I also think from all appearances this is one of the best programmed (on release) libraries that SF has done. They are going from strength to strength recently. I totally disagree with those who thought the walkthrough revealed programming flaws.
> 
> Both libraries sound great tonally, with an edge to SStB... but CSB's articulation demos make me feel like I'm in the room with musicians who are really passionate in the moment about playing these samples.
> 
> I think busy pro composers will just buy *both* of these. I mean it sets you back less than $1k total to have two amazing products, you can even throw in Caspian. Pro composers will probably not be satisfied with the zero-frills articulation approach of the CS series and SStB offers a really nice lineup of auxiliary instruments and cool extended techniques.
> 
> As someone on a budget (both money, RAM, and time), the compatibility with CSS, and the very generous loyalty discount for CSS owners, is the deciding factor for me along with CSB's innate musicality.



So what are you saying? They're _both _good? Can you _say_ that?!


----------



## CT

Karl Feuerstake said:


> Exactly. So the argument comes down to what has great sound vs. what has great playability - and with our current technology, nothing can do both perfectly yet. So you pick what suits you. For me, I don't need to or want to mock up any John Williams or Michael Giacchino; I have no interest in sounding like them. For others that is what they would prefer to sound like, and so they might be more drawn to the sample-modelling stuff.
> 
> If you wanted to do John Williams with really great quality sound as well, you'd need to do some serious sampling - it would require an enormous budget, and a large team to prepare the enormous swath of samples, and some serious programming to make it 'work like sample-modelling but sound like real life.' We're getting close now with some libraries beginning to offer various attack-types on notes for sustains, _but_ then they often offer these at a sacrifice of round-robins. This is more because sampling brass is very time-consuming and riddled with challenges - to sample it thoroughly, players need to play an absolute ton of material, and brass players tire quickly. So if you sample 15 pitches of 'sustain' and offer 2x round robins and 3x dynamics, that requires 90 GOOD takes (there may be a few bad.) Now if you offer sustain soft-attack, normale, strong-attack, you're tripling that all. So you cut out the round-robin, maybe even some of the dynamics of certain attacks, to get back down to 90 - which sacrifices some realism and/or flexibility.
> 
> Let's not even forget brass players tire quickly. This means they're gonna require breaks, or even for multiple sessions across various days, especially when you get to the really loud stuff.
> 
> One day someone might work up the budget and time to do something insane, but for now, Spitfire and Orchestral Tools seem to be on the right path, even if they don't provide everything and the kitchen sink just yet. Play-ability is a whole other ball park and takes a lot of doctoring to get right as well, especially if you want to avoid creating unnatural sounds when blending your recordings.



Well said!

Sure, it would be nice to have orchestral VI's with the versatility of real orchestral players. As it is, though, it isn't such a big deal to choose between the different available options based on what best suits your needs, or to just get them all, if you do it all (and can afford it). The choice of better sound or better playability also isn't all that painful, not for me, at least. It's just a reality of what we do, and you have to figure out which you value more.

Everything is a compromise. Virtual instruments are no different. I don't think that will ever change, and I think that's for the best.


----------



## josephspirits

AdamKmusic said:


> Just noticed this on the SF website, looks like woodwinds are set to come as well (I assume someone already noticed this)



Yup, that has been up since the strings came out, not sure how long it will be though.


----------



## Henu

Before listening to the Samplemodeling excerpts:

"_Woaaah, I'm SO MUCH either getting CSB or this....or both!!!!_"

After listening to the Samplemodeling excerpts:

"_Yeah, well...I think I'm just going to pass these for now and concentrate seriously learning to use the Samplemodeling libraries better_."


----------



## Alex Fraser

miket said:


> Well said!
> 
> Sure, it would be nice to have orchestral VI's with the versatility of real orchestral players. As it is, though, it isn't such a big deal to choose between the different available options based on what best suits your needs, or to just get them all, if you do it all (and can afford it). The choice of better sound or better playability also isn't all that painful, not for me, at least. It's just a reality of what we do, and you have to figure out which you value more.
> 
> Everything is a compromise. Virtual instruments are no different. I don't think that will ever change, and I think that's for the best.


<Shows the red card.>
Reasoned, non-tribal discussion has no place here, Miket. This forum is for arguing over semantics and tiny legato sampling imperfections heard in an off-the-cuff musical improvisation.

I had a listen to the Spitfire walkthrough. It sounds just fine. Lots of useful articulations and sounds. I heard some useable legato too. Maybe this library won't let me create a 90%-accurate-not-quite-as-good-as-the-real-thing John Williams mockup. But that's not what I choose to spend my time doing anyway.

Right tool for the job as always. Nothing changes.


----------



## jules

Does anyone know when the promo price ends ? Despite the spitfire's propensity of overusing superlatives in their walkthrough, i have to say the tone of this library is delighfull. I need a new brass library like a third leg, but damn, this one sound good !


----------



## Consona

jules said:


> I need a new brass library like a third leg, but damn


 I've never heard this expression, so funny.


----------



## SirKen

Does anyone know what the full price will be after the intro period?


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Consona said:


> I've never heard this expression, so funny.


Yea that caught me off guard too  I've also never heard someone say superlative once in my life, so I suspect English is not his native tongue. Probably the third leg thing is a saying in his native language, but an amusing translation for sure!

Edit: ah yes, he is French  @jules - In English I might say "I need to use the word superlative more like I need another hole in my head"


----------



## jules

Karl Feuerstake said:


> Yea that caught me off guard too  I've also never heard someone say superlative once in my life, so I suspect English is not his native tongue. Probably the third leg thing is a saying in his native language, but an amusing translation for sure!
> 
> Edit: ah yes, he is French  @jules - In English I might say "I need to use the word superlative more like I need another hole in my head"


You're spot on !  I frequently translate idiomatics on the go, but as we have in france a wide variety of funny expressions like "third leg", i'm surprised that you're surprised. (To be honest, "i need _this_ like i need a thirst leg" is the polite version of "i need _this_ like i need a second a**hole")
Superlative is not so frequent, tbh.


----------



## sourcefor

Yes I m torn between This and Cinematic Studio Brass...Ugh, do you think this can be a go to library for most things?


----------



## robgb

I've been one to criticize Spitfire in the past, but I think they're really onto something with this Studio series.


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

Finally got it downloaded (CSB)....just plain wonderful all around. Crazy good. The only thing I don't think I could really use it for is a more pop/jazz in your face sound, which I know it isn't meant for, a bit too much room for that, but geez Alex did a wonderful job on this. For this price it's a great deal.


----------



## ionian

tomhartmanmusic said:


> Finally got it downloaded (CSB)....just plain wonderful all around. Crazy good. The only thing I don't think I could really use it for is a more pop/jazz in your face sound, which I know it isn't meant for, a bit too much room for that, but geez Alex did a wonderful job on this. For this price it's a great deal.



Lol wrong thread?


----------



## tomhartmanmusic

Damn! (blushing)....but that's OK I'll be back, gonna get standard edition of Spitfire too....you cannot have too many guitars, or libraries!


----------



## Symfoniq

robgb said:


> I've been one to criticize Spitfire in the past, but I think they're really onto something with this Studio series.



Were the Studio Strings any good? I was very much out of the loop when those were released, but seem to recall a lot of complaints.


----------



## Casiquire

jules said:


> You're spot on !  I frequently translate idiomatics on the go, but as we have in france a wide variety of funny expressions like "third leg", i'm surprised that you're surprised. (To be honest, "i need _this_ like i need a thirst leg" is the polite version of "i need _this_ like i need a second a**hole")
> Superlative is not so frequent, tbh.



What makes this translation particularly amusing is that in English "third leg" actually refers to something most men wish to have.


----------



## Gerbil

Casiquire said:


> What makes this translation particularly amusing is that in English "third leg" actually refers to something most men wish to have.



Sadly I have to inform you that it's overrated :(


----------



## Rey

If I get the Studio brass now, can I upgrade to Studio Brass Pro later on?


----------



## galactic orange

Rey said:


> If I get the Studio brass now, can I upgrade to Studio Brass Pro later on?


That seems to be the case, but keep in mind that you’ll pay the difference in the price between the standard and Pro version at the time of your purchase. That difference will be greater down the road than it is now during the intro period.


----------



## Lee Blaske

Henu said:


> Before listening to the Samplemodeling excerpts:
> 
> "_Woaaah, I'm SO MUCH either getting CSB or this....or both!!!!_"
> 
> After listening to the Samplemodeling excerpts:
> 
> "_Yeah, well...I think I'm just going to pass these for now and concentrate seriously learning to use the Samplemodeling libraries better_."




I've got all the SampleModeling and AudioModeling instruments, and I definitely like them. A couple of thoughts, though, on those excerpts...

1. I do think that using lots of modeled VIs can lead to a somewhat organ-ish sort of sound (but you'll notice that less on fast moving music with a lot of additional elements).

2. Be cautious when judging excerpts of anything hooked up to nice video imagery. It's amazing how the visuals can make things sound better, and more convincing (I thought that about the OT big band library video). 

3. Be cautious about short pieces that have a lot of other elements (strings, percussion, etc.). The more elements to listen to, the less you'll focus on one particular thing.

4. Be cautious of mock-ups of pieces you know well. Our brains are really complex, and I think they're capable of filling in the details from what's stored in memory. So, if there's already a good quality "copy" of that piece in your brain, you maybe be drawing from that a bit (especially, when it's also reinforced with visuals).


----------



## Lee Blaske

galactic orange said:


> That seems to be the case, but keep in mind that you’ll pay the difference in the price between the standard and Pro version at the time of your purchase. That difference will be greater down the road than it is now during the intro period.



Unless you can wait until next Black Friday. 

It all just depends on how soon you really need it. I think it's a safe bet that all sample libraries and upgrades will be cheaper down the road (unless the company putting them out decides not to upgrade them to run on current machines and operating systems, and just retires them). 8Dio has now gotten into a habit of running sales on libraries that have been in their catalog for awhile at ridiculous discounts. I predict we'll see more of that from other companies in the future. There is now an ENORMOUS glut of sample content on the market, and the buzz always seems to be about the latest and greatest. Samples are kind of like olive oil. Companies are going to make the most from that first olive squeeze, but there's no reason not to squeeze things a few more times.


----------



## LamaRose

Casiquire said:


> What makes this translation particularly amusing is that in English "third leg" actually refers to something most men wish to have.


I'm really confused now... @jules is a cat, right? When he mentioned that third leg, I really felt some superlative empathy for him.


----------



## Consona

sourcefor said:


> Yes I m torn between This and Cinematic Studio Brass...Ugh, do you think this can be a go to library for most things?


Again, depends on music you write. But I don't know how agile CSB legato's are, so hard to tell right now. Hope someone will make some demos and mock-ups.


----------



## AdamKmusic

Reckon we'll get some demos today? I saw from Christians Instagram/Twitter that he was recording his walkthrough.


----------



## Michel Simons

Casiquire said:


> What makes this translation particularly amusing is that in English "third leg" actually refers to something most men wish to have.



A third leg-ato?

Where's my coat...


----------



## jules

Casiquire said:


> What makes this translation particularly amusing is that in English "third leg" actually refers to something most men wish to have.


Ah ah ! Like stated by @Gerbil, it would be a bit of a stretch (ah !) and very very much of a superlative !


----------



## jules

LamaRose said:


> I'm really confused now... @jules is a cat, right? When he mentioned that third leg, I really felt some superlative empathy for him.


As a pink lama (with four legs, i suppose), i feel you !


----------



## jules

Back to thread, maybe ? I'm surprised there's no mention on spitfire's website of the size of the library, and no "this promo price ends on...". Maybe it was in a mail they sent (i'm not on the mailing list) ?


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Yea, seems kinda odd. I'm also curious as to what time I can actually purchase and download at.


----------



## Henu

Lee Blaske said:


> I've got all the SampleModeling and AudioModeling instruments, and I definitely like them.



Me too, but I've always used them in another styles than orchestral, so I've been meaning to try to give them a shot too many times in an orchestral environment. :D But you have some seriously valid points!!!


----------



## Hanu_H

I think that Spitfire has changed their focus quite a lot with the studio series. I don't really see these as a comprehensive libraries made for pro's, but more of a great libraries for people starting out or for someone with a limited budget. The value for pro's is the different sound, but I really doubt that this would replace all the other libraries in their arsenal. It has some great sounding patches, but I can also hear a lot of things that my older libraries do better. I guess it is a wise choice to go for the bigger market, instead of staying niche. How many years does the sampling industry have left with the same sampling methods? It's time to invent something new...

-Hannes


----------



## Alex Fraser

Hanu_H said:


> I think that Spitfire has changed their focus quite a lot with the studio series. I don't really see these as a comprehensive libraries made for pro's, but more of a great libraries for people starting out or for someone with a limited budget. The value for pro's is the different sound, but I really doubt that this would replace all the other libraries in their arsenal. It has some great sounding patches, but I can also hear a lot of things that my older libraries do better. I guess it is a wise choice to go for the bigger market, instead of staying niche. How many years does the sampling industry have left with the same sampling methods? It's time to invent something new...
> 
> -Hannes


What defines "pro" exactly? I'm perpetually confused by this separation often made on forums. Ultimately, everyone is dipping into the same collection of sonic options, right? Whatever it takes to get the job done. Maybe a discussion for another day.

Re the Spitfire Brass: There's sometimes a belief around these parts (and no doubt influenced by marketing) that new libraries have to be better than the ones that came before. Better sounding, better legato etc. Another shuffle towards the Ultimate Library that "does what you're thinking without any extra work."

Reality is - I think - that new libraries are designed around a certain idea. The SF studio series seems to be designed around giving the composer a wide range of sonic options. That's the angle, not an all encompassing Star Wars* mockup brass section.

Recorded nice and dry, this library will be ideal for fulfilling my Mike Post/A-Team mockup fantasies.

*PS - I love Star Wars. Just using as an example.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Alex Fraser said:


> Mike Post/A-Team mockup fantasies


I look forward to hearing those, if you decide to share them.


----------



## SpitfireSupport

jules said:


> Back to thread, maybe ? I'm surprised there's no mention on spitfire's website of the size of the library, and no "this promo price ends on...". Maybe it was in a mail they sent (i'm not on the mailing list) ?


Studio Brass Pro will be about 115GB and Studio Brass will be about 8GB.

Promo period is LIKELY to be 2 weeks but that's not confirmed.


----------



## jbuhler

Alex Fraser said:


> What defines "pro" exactly? I'm perpetually confused by this separation often made on forums. Ultimately, everyone is dipping into the same collection of sonic options, right? Whatever it takes to get the job done. Maybe a discussion for another day.


Composing has particular needs from a library, production others, midi-mockups still others, etc. A lot of folks want a tool that can be used reasonably efficiently in all contexts, at least in part because it cuts down complexity, the number of tools you need to master. And that's an important concern. Then, too, people gain attention by being able to credibly mock up well-known music. Credibly mocking up well-known music is also fun (and good training as well), so it's not a surprise that there would be a certain demand for libraries that ease this task. Whether libraries that do this well are the right tools for contemporary scoring is another question; whether they are the right tools for your own personal sound is yet another question.


----------



## jbuhler

SpitfireSupport said:


> Studio Brass Pro will be about 115GB and Studio Brass will be about 8GB.
> 
> Promo period is LIKELY to be 2 weeks but that's not confirmed.


Any word on when demos will be released?


----------



## SpitfireSupport

jbuhler said:


> Any word on when demos will be released?


There'll be more content tomorrow alongside the actual release.


----------



## jbuhler

SpitfireSupport said:


> There'll be more content tomorrow alongside the actual release.


Thank you!


----------



## Hanu_H

Alex Fraser said:


> What defines "pro" exactly? I'm perpetually confused by this separation often made on forums. Ultimately, everyone is dipping into the same collection of sonic options, right? Whatever it takes to get the job done. Maybe a discussion for another day.
> 
> Re the Spitfire Brass: There's sometimes a belief around these parts (and no doubt influenced by marketing) that new libraries have to be better than the ones that came before. Better sounding, better legato etc. Another shuffle towards the Ultimate Library that "does what you're thinking without any extra work."
> 
> Reality is - I think - that new libraries are designed around a certain idea. The SF studio series seems to be designed around giving the composer a wide range of sonic options. That's the angle, not an all encompassing Star Wars* mockup brass section.
> 
> Recorded nice and dry, this library will be ideal for fulfilling my Mike Post/A-Team mockup fantasies.
> 
> *PS - I love Star Wars. Just using as an example.


I have not talked anything about mocking up Star Wars, so can't really comment on that. What I see in this product, with the limited information I've got, is that this is not something that is supposed to use as library that you can use in every type of music. If you write for the samples it will work and will give you a specific sound. If you already have 5+ brass libraries, can't really see what totally unique and special this brings to the table. And the price reflects that in my opinion. Composer who don't have all of those libraries will be thrilled to have this library with such a low price and composer who have(mostly professionals) will judge this if it is different enough that they can't do the same with their current libraries. I have many libraries and I like most of them. If I am gonna buy a new library it has to do things better, faster or the sound has to be something I desire. I know many people here just collect libraries but for me they are tools to get something done. How many screw drivers do you need? If you got all the sizes and shapes, why buy another one with a different handle? But put a motor in there and it makes sense once again.

-Hannes


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

@Hanu_H

I'm not a guitarist, so to me any two guitars of the same type played side-by-side will sound 90% the same. But we all know the saying "you can never have too many guitars" You're right, it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to some.


----------



## Hanu_H

Karl Feuerstake said:


> @Hanu_H
> 
> I'm not a guitarist, so to me any two guitars of the same type played side-by-side will sound 90% the same. But we all know the saying "you can never have too many guitars" You're right, it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to some.


I am a guitarist and have a lot of guitars. But do I need them, not really. Guitar is not a really big part of the guitar sound, of course the mic's and wood changes the tone, but it's nothing that audience will notice. Only if you change from ESP with active EMG's in to a Stratocaster with single coils and don't change any of the settings. It's the amp, EQ and effects that make the sound.

-Hannes


----------



## Alex Fraser

I think we're all broadly on the same page then.

I just wish I could justify purchasing libraries like this. Spitfire always do this to me: I want the new toys, but can't ever see myself requiring them for the work that brings in the $$.

I'm like Gollum every time the promo emails drop. "You don't need it/I wants it, my precious..."


----------



## Hanu_H

Alex Fraser said:


> I think we're all broadly on the same page then.
> 
> I just wish I could justify purchasing libraries like this. Spitfire always do this to me: I want the new toys, but can't ever see myself requiring them for the work that brings in the $$.
> 
> I'm like Gollum every time the promo emails drop. "You don't need it/I wants it, my precious..."


Yeah and that is part of the thing I am talking about. You always want new things and with all the great demos made by really talented people makes you think you need this to write better music. But most of the time, when you got the new thing, you realize that it's not the libraries holding you back...

-Hannes


----------



## Rey

anyone know what the intro price would be? thought of getting it on promo at last hour


----------



## AdamKmusic

Rey said:


> anyone know what the intro price would be? thought of getting it on promo at last hour


Probably £100 more than the promo price


----------



## prodigalson

Rey said:


> anyone know what the intro price would be? thought of getting it on promo at last hour



Are you saying that there is going to be a new intro price with the release of the library? I understood that the current price would remain for a period of time (support said 2 weeks) after release...


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

considering u still cant buy it on the site yet id expect 2 weeks


----------



## AdamKmusic

Any guesses on when the libraries will be live? 10am UK time maybe?


----------



## Michel Simons

AdamKmusic said:


> Any guesses on when the libraries will be live? 10am UK time maybe?



I believe normally it is at 17:00 GMT (if that is still a thing).


----------



## erikradbo

It's up, with demos.


----------



## CT

I'll grab it in a few minutes, and post some examples here as soon as I can.


----------



## NoamL

Demos are really nice!


----------



## Ran Zhou

Same demos for Pro and Plain edition?...


----------



## CT

NoamL said:


> Demos are really nice!



Paul's seems to be an answer to anyone wondering if this can handle "that style." It meshes really well with what I assume is the BHT percussion, and maybe some Studio Woodwinds, too?

And it sounds like Homay's been listening to some John Adams!


----------



## Bill the Lesser

They're really playing up the extensive patch list in those demos, which is of course their strong card! Very impressed with those arrangements. Must...resist...


----------



## Lassi Tani

Very good demos, finally!

Some short notes of Paul's demo sounds odd.. (0:16) maybe the library struggles when having very fast passages. Same thing in Homay's demo. It almost resembles harmonica playing runs. I might be wrong though.

Also when it's playing very high dynamics, it doesn't sound as natural as CSB.

Well only 3 demos so far, I need more to compare it with other brass offerings.


----------



## Michael Stibor

Oh man, I was really hoping to base my decision off of those demos, and they are just _not_ doing it for me. It sounds really thin to me, which I know could be the mix. But what else am I going to base my opinion off of? Also, the shorts sound really robotic.


----------



## Gerbil

It's never easy to judge these things until you're playing libraries but I really like the sound overall. Not all of the legato patches convince me but the sound is what I'm after. And I love the vibratos I've heard. It has a quite British colour to it, almost like a colliery band.


----------



## jbuhler

I think these demos sound pretty good and important for me they do seem capable of achieving things SSB does not do (or at least does not do easily). I like the selection of brass in the pro version, and even the full price on these is pretty reasonable.


----------



## Bill the Lesser

Well the demos don't scream *BRASS LIBRARY!!!*, and that's what I like about them. They show brass well integrated and balanced with other instruments into an overall score. It's kind of refreshing.


----------



## CT

My very first impressions are that the dynamic range is superb, and that the legato and overall tone may not easily gratify the ears during a casual play around, but sound excellent when you give them well-written, idiomatic lines.

The three short lengths alone allow for some very convincing phrases.

EDIT: Spotted just one or two bugs. Nothing major at all (inverted vibrato control on the trumpet low dynamics, on a few notes), and I'm reporting them to support as I go.


----------



## CT

Here's a folder of some quick and dirty tests.



On all long notes, I'm using a breath controller for dynamics. Vibrato is on the wheel with CC1. Dynamics for short notes are CC1 controlled.

Onboard reverb and fp hall setting are both off. No additional anything. I just turned up each Kontakt instance from -6db to 0.

In the Harry Potter excerpt for full brass, I decided to give the three trombone parts to the cimbasso instead, so that could get some air time, and also because there are no solo trombones in the basic version.

The legato could be more agile in places, and I would love to not have to simulate re-tonguing with the breath controller. Those are really the only critiques I have at the moment. Exposed and unprocessed like this, I think it's holding up brilliantly.

I'll explore more later, and try some "flashier" parts.


----------



## The Darris

Am I the only one that is put off by Spitfire reusing demos from other libraries to promote their newer ones? I'm pretty sure Christian's demo for this is the same from Studio Strings but with a little bit of some brass now. I would really like a demo that can showcase Brass writing. Good or bad.


----------



## jbuhler

The Darris said:


> Am I the only one that is put off by Spitfire reusing demos from other libraries to promote their newer ones? I'm pretty sure Christian's demo for this is the same from Studio Strings but with a little bit of some brass now. I would really like a demo that can showcase Brass writing. Good or bad.


Except it does show off the brass and an aspect of the library that the others do not. I would have liked more demos and some demos that really showed the difference between the two versions of the library.


----------



## The Darris

I had to double check the website. Because they have the two versions, it was a bit confusing on my phone. I thought the only demo out there was the release video on Youtube. I'm listening to the actual demos now. My bad.


----------



## N.Caffrey

miket said:


> Here's a folder of some quick and dirty tests.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/urr7t72g5lik2re/AADbL7_FeF-x98lng3x8gAWVa?dl=0
> 
> On all long notes, I'm using a breath controller for dynamics. Vibrato is on the wheel with CC1. Dynamics for short notes are CC1 controlled.
> 
> Onboard reverb and fp hall setting are both off. No additional anything. I just turned up each Kontakt instance from -6db to 0.
> 
> In the Harry Potter excerpt for full brass, I decided to give the three trombone parts to the cimbasso instead, so that could get some air time, and also because there are no solo trombones in the basic version.
> 
> The legato could be more agile in places, and I would love to not have to simulate re-tonguing with the breath controller. Those are really the only critiques I have at the moment. Exposed and unprocessed like this, I think it's holding up brilliantly.
> 
> I'll explore more later, and try some "flashier" parts.


They sound really good!


----------



## Karma

miket said:


> Here's a folder of some quick and dirty tests.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/urr7t72g5lik2re/AADbL7_FeF-x98lng3x8gAWVa?dl=0
> 
> On all long notes, I'm using a breath controller for dynamics. Vibrato is on the wheel with CC1. Dynamics for short notes are CC1 controlled.
> 
> Onboard reverb and fp hall setting are both off. No additional anything. I just turned up each Kontakt instance from -6db to 0.
> 
> In the Harry Potter excerpt for full brass, I decided to give the three trombone parts to the cimbasso instead, so that could get some air time, and also because there are no solo trombones in the basic version.
> 
> The legato could be more agile in places, and I would love to not have to simulate re-tonguing with the breath controller. Those are really the only critiques I have at the moment. Exposed and unprocessed like this, I think it's holding up brilliantly.
> 
> I'll explore more later, and try some "flashier" parts.


Ha, the first thing I did was play Apollo 13 too.


----------



## emasters

Bought it but the download is ssssllllooowwww.... Spitfire is very professional in most aspects of their business. Download speeds sadly are not (at least where I'm located). That said, it should complete downloading after 8 to 10 hours using 5 percent of my available bandwidth. And then at that point, can give it a try. Looks great for my needs.


----------



## bryanmckay

emasters said:


> Bought it but the download is ssssllllooowwww.... Spitfire is very professional in most aspects of their business. Download speeds sadly are not (at least where I'm located). That said, it should complete downloading after 8 to 10 hours using 5 percent of my available bandwidth. And then at that point, can give it a try. Looks great for my needs.



It's definitely slow. It took me about seven hours (for the Professional version) hovering around 42Mbps the whole time. My regular download speeds are usually closer to 200Mbps.


----------



## NoamL

miket said:


> Paul's seems to be an answer to anyone wondering if this can handle "that style." It meshes really well with what I assume is the BHT percussion, and maybe some Studio Woodwinds, too?
> 
> And it sounds like Homay's been listening to some John Adams!



So I wasn't alone in thinking that was super influenced by Harmonielehre 

nice demos btw!


----------



## CT

Thanks Noam!

Actually, even before I heard Homay's demo, I was thinking that "Short Ride in a Fast Machine" would be interesting to tackle with this. I'm going to try a few bars now, but that's a tough one to count.


----------



## stonzthro

I love Spitfire and have almost all their libraries, but the repeated staccatos just don't sound very realistic to me at all. Am I missing something?


----------



## CT

stonzthro said:


> I love Spitfire and have almost all their libraries, but the repeated staccatos just don't sound very realistic to me at all. Am I missing something?



There's also a multitongue articulation for most instruments, which will always sound better than trying to get there with repeated short notes. I haven't played with them yet, though. Lots to figure out just in the default NKI's.

Added a little John Adams, this time with more of a concert hall setting. These are just the legatos. Solo horn + horns a 4, solo trumpet (with a slight 1st chair vibrato) + trumpets a 2, and the cimbasso and tuba in octaves (the cimbasso again subbing in for a solo trombone).


Out of the box, this is definitely *studio* brass. I think you get a fair amount of flexibility with just Tree 1, but I'm beginning to think the other mics in the Pro editions are going to be essential for me sooner rather than later. Especially the outriggers, if BHT is any indication.


----------



## Consona

Maybe I'm listening to classical music too much, but all those demos sound so "samply" to me. But maybe it's just the execution and the library is capable of sounding more organic.


----------



## CT

If you're talking about mine, I would not judge any library based on what someone has thrown together with it during free moments, and not having owned it for even half a day yet. 

Just thought it would be nice to have some examples of one person's attempt to give it good, idiomatic music to play, without any bells or whistles or processing.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Consona said:


> Maybe I'm listening to classical music too much, but all those demos sound so "samply" to me. But maybe it's just the execution and the library is capable of sounding more organic.


For me too. The samples tone are nice but its like what I said about that in the other thread imo its not possible to create cohesive lines. Sample Modeling and Ibrass maybe not the king in tone, but they are imo when it comes to create fluid lines with expression better than any other brass libraries. I did some days ago a quick test for the indy fanfare with sm, just for comparison.


----------



## CT

Hm. I like mine better.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

miket said:


> Hm. I like mine better.



Sure, you can do that.


----------



## babylonwaves

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Sure, you can do that.


miket's IS better


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

babylonwaves said:


> miket's IS better


Okay,okay,its all good.


----------



## Hanu_H

babylonwaves said:


> miket's IS better


The SM version sounds a lot more realistic than the SSB. The lenght of the notes and how they connect doesn't sound realistic at all. It has ok sound but definitely CineBrass sounds better in lines like this. The legatos in Miket's examples don't work for me either and shorts sound a bit robotic. Only thing I really like about SSB, are the dynamics. And the drier sound.

-Hannes


----------



## Casiquire

Hanu_H said:


> The SM version sounds a lot more realistic than the SSB. The lenght of the notes and how they connect doesn't sound realistic at all. It has ok sound but definitely CineBrass sounds better in lines like this. The legatos in Miket's examples don't work for me either and shorts sound a bit robotic. Only thing I really like about SSB, are the dynamics. And the drier sound.
> 
> -Hannes



You know, I agree. The Spitfire version had a better "sound" but the SM does have a more realistic feel


----------



## CT

Hanu_H said:


> The legatos in Miket's examples don't work for me either



I didn't use legatos in that.

It's also bone-dry, whereas that Sample Modeling example is drenched.


----------



## Hanu_H

miket said:


> I didn't use legatos in that.


I mean the other examples in your dropbox folder.

-Hannes


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Yes, the sm had more reverb, but you can make it drier of course. Like I said: _Fluid lines with a lot of expression where you can sculpture the expression is more important to me than the tone_. These are drier settings, here. There is no right or wrong, each to their own of course but still I think that mikets example completely is obvious inferior when it comes to creating fluid lines and expression, just for me of course...if you like the brass there is nothing wrong with that and enjoy the new library. You know it is not about brass battles here, it is just different philosophies.


----------



## CT

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> There is no right or wrong, each to their own of course but still I think that mikets example completely is obvious inferior when it comes to creating fluid lines and expression, just for me of course...



This sentence gave me whiplash.

The last thing I wanted was to start this same old tired discussion, with the usual suspects, and the usual (intentional or not) vaguely haughty tone.

Time to pack up my trash and exit thread right, then, lest this end up in the Drama Zone. That's not a club I want to join.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

miket said:


> This sentence gave me whiplash.
> 
> The last thing I wanted was to start this same old tired discussion, with the usual suspects, and the usual (intentional or not) vaguely haughty tone.
> 
> Time to pack up my trash and exit thread right, then, lest this end up in the Drama Zone. That's not a club I want to join.


Why? Did I say something wrong? What is with the argument putting it into the drama zone just because that there are different opinions? Sorry if so but that wasnt my intention.


----------



## Loïc D

@miket : I’m really interested in SSB, so you can post examples & contribute as much as you want, please.
I won’t criticize since I don’t have a standard library to compare to (except good old ewqlso gold)


----------



## CT

Oh, criticize all you want, please! It's not that... although in a few cases one is left wishing for a *tad* more tact and self-awareness. 

I just don't want to have been responsible for another one of these circular debates that accomplish nothing, and which are so prevalent recently. Although, the damage is already done, I suppose.


----------



## HelixK

SM at least to my ears is clearly superior to create fluid lines and believable phrasing. BUT Studio Brass is good enough to make me wanna use it instead. I love the trumpets here!

EDIT. shame that the dropbox link is no longer working, it presented the trumpets and horns in a far better light than any Spitfire demo. Still not so sure about the trombones and tubas...


----------



## HelixK

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes, the sm had more reverb, but you can make it drier of course. Like I said: _Fluid lines with a lot of expression where you can sculpture the expression is more important to me than the tone_. These are drier settings, here. There is no right or wrong, each to their own of course but still I think that mikets example completely is obvious inferior when it comes to creating fluid lines and expression, just for me of course...if you like the brass there is nothing wrong with that and enjoy the new library. You know it is not about brass battles here, it is just different philosophies.




I like this dryer version a lot more! Alex what's up with the sound breaking up at 0:04 ?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

miket said:


> Oh, criticize all you want, please! It's not that... although in a few cases one is left wishing for a *tad* more tact and self-awareness.
> 
> I just don't want to have been responsible for another one of these circular debates that accomplish nothing, and which are so prevalent recently. Although, the damage is already done, I suppose.



Me neither, I just posted it to have a comparison. Either what you like better, is completely ok, I said that already. Am I allowed to say something here in that thread about the studio brass which isn´t only praise without getting dramatized? :D . I didn´t said anything rude to you. And I dont want any endless debates either. Please get that point straight man. Again I said: I like the pure tone of studio brass but on the other hand, I think its not possible to create fluid lines like with sample modeling - May I say that without that you get that wrong? Man..All good!  Please..and reupload your examples..man.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

HelixK said:


> I like this dryer version a lot more! Alex what's up with the sound breaking up at 0:04 ?



I don´t know what you mean, there is nothing breaking up.


----------



## HelixK

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I don´t know what you mean, there is nothing breaking up.



The A at 0:04 can't you hear it? No big deal it just sounded a bit off and I was curious about it


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

I did a little bit of the raiders march with CSB for comparison.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-march-trumpets-mp3.17101/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-march-trumpets-mp3.17101/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Soprano_Sundays said:


> I did a little bit of the raiders march with CSB for comparison.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-march-trumpets-mp3.17101/][/AUDIOPLUS]



The CSB handles that imo much better.


----------



## N.Caffrey

I have Cinebrass, and despite being a big fan of both CSB and SSB, I don't feel overly tempted to buy either of them at the moment.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Absolutely no insult meant to any of the participants, but a VI played solo like that is always going to have a whiff of midi about it. It's only in arrangements IMO that these sounds come to life and start to fool the ear. That's what they're designed for. Not sure I would have made any Spitfire purchases without first hearing the deft touch of Mr Blaney.


----------



## spiderfingers

I am a little bit surprised by the regular prices (€200/€400), same with the strings. It's a totally different price range than the old orchestra which went up to €999 for Chamber Strings Pro. Does Spitfire think this library is not that great or do they hope to get more customers?


----------



## Alex Fraser

spiderfingers said:


> I am a little bit surprised by the regular prices (€200/€400), same with the strings. It's a totally different price range than the old orchestra which went up to €999 for Chamber Strings Pro. Does Spitfire think this library is not that great or do they hope to get more customers?


Good question. I reckon they're experimenting with price and the market. A new product would be ideal for this, as once you reduce the price of the top-end product, there's no going back. Also - the higher price for the "normal" Spitfire Orchestra helps to reframe the studio series as more of a bargain.


----------



## AdamKmusic

I imagine a lot of the price of the symphonic series is the sound of the Air hall as well


----------



## Hanu_H

I also want to apologize to Miket if you feel my comments were too harsh. I never meant to criticize your work, only the aspects of the library. I think you did a good job and it really doesn't sound bad. My comments were only comparing SSB to other products that I own and use every day. And we all have different tastes and I am sure this library is totally usable in every way. But the problem is that the competition is so hard now and all the libraries are really good, so comparing them is really about nitpicking and the small differences instead of this is right and this is wrong. Please put the dropbox link back, I am sure it will help many people with their decision.

-Hannes


----------



## madfloyd

Soprano_Sundays said:


> I did a little bit of the raiders march with CSB for comparison.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-march-trumpets-mp3.17101/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/raiders-march-trumpets-mp3.17101/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Seems like the 2nd one isn't here anymore?


----------



## madfloyd

Does anyone have both CSB and SSB that can speak to their differences (or post comparisons)?


----------



## jbuhler

I still haven't heard enough in the walkthroughs and demos to make this an immediate buy. But the pro version does seem to expand SSB in ways that make it not simply redundant and I think the demos sound good in context. I'm hoping for more content to further help me decide if this will be a useful addition.


----------



## Consona

miket said:


> If you're talking about mine


I'm talking about Spitfire demos.


----------



## tomosane

They just uploaded a "Contextual" demo on Youtube:


----------



## Consona

N.Caffrey said:


> I have Cinebrass, and despite being a big fan of both CSB and SSB, I don't feel overly tempted to buy either of them at the moment.


Just yesterday I loaded up Cinebrass, played some lines and honestly, I think I won't buy anything new (more so when I know they keep updating all their flagship libraries, so it's not some abandonware).

To me ears, there's something so lively about Cinebrass, the samples are imperfect in the best way possible, those patches sound like real people are performing. With SStB, while I like the sound a lot, it all sounds so robotic. It's like the samples are recorded and edited too perfectly and strictly. When I load up Tuba legato from CB Pro, it's totally like there's a guy with that instrument playing my midi part for me, I love that patch. I just hope they'll make some playable fast legato repetitions/runs patches, or maybe 90s brass could handle that, dunno, don't have the trumpets. Hope they will update the auto borrowing feature to CineBrass series.

I'm still considering CSB, but like, some really great demos would have to show up to convince me. After yesterday's noodling with Cinebrass I don't feel I need anything else for now.


----------



## jbuhler

Consona said:


> I'm still considering CSB, but like, some really great demos would have to show up to convince me. After yesterday's noodling with Cinebrass I don't feel I need anything else for now.



This is a perfectly reasonable approach and a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to, even if you like the sound of a library you don't have somewhat better. Is there enough difference there to add something you don't have for the cost. I'm evaluating similarly, though I'm looking at Spitfire Studio Brass Pro as a supplement to their Symphonic Brass, not CSB, which doesn't have the instrument coverage I want.


----------



## Consona

jbuhler said:


> This is a perfectly reasonable approach and a perfectly reasonable conclusion to come to, even if you like the sound of a library you don't have somewhat better. Is there enough difference there to add something you don't have for the cost. I'm evaluating similarly, though I'm looking at Spitfire Studio Brass Pro as a supplement to their Symphonic Brass, not CSB, which doesn't have the instrument coverage I want.


I don't like SStB sound better than CineBrass. I just like SStB sound a lot.  You know what I mean?..

I think SStB can be perfectly justifiable purchase for some people. The price of the normal version is very good and with some trick it could sound more lively, what do I know... Maybe some (black fri) day I'll buy it if some great demos come up, for now, I feel I have everything I need just with CB Core+Pro (expect those damn fast legato repetitions).


----------



## jbuhler

Consona said:


> I don't like SStB sound better than CineBrass. I just like SStB sound a lot.  You know what I mean?..


I passed on the Berlin Woodwinds at the BF sale, even though I like the sound of that library a lot and I still have tinges of regret. But I objectively did not need it at this point. For what I do, my current libraries are serviceable, even if I don't love all of my woodwinds.


----------



## axb312

tomosane said:


> They just uploaded a "Contextual" demo on Youtube:




Beautifully done.


----------



## Gerbil

That video's sold it to me. Some beautifully recorded instruments in there and cheaper than going to watch Spurs play the gooners.


----------



## Lee Blaske

tomosane said:


> They just uploaded a "Contextual" demo on Youtube:




Wow. What a video. How does CH do this, and where does he find the time to do it? All the things that need to come together to make a video like this (aside from building the product, in the first place) add up to a superhuman effort. Really nice composition, beautifully rendered, wonderfully mixed, and constructed in a very logical way to demonstrate and instruct. And then, he puts together an extremely tightly organized presentation that's interesting to watch, exciting, entertaining (and also very effective from a sales standpoint). Just being able to do a presentation like that is a full-time career for lots of folks. The set is well lit, and there are now a lot of fancy zoom-in shots on various windows. 

If time machines existed, and someone could have shown me this video back in the early eighties when I first started buying samplers and sample libraries, I would NEVER have believed that the competitive market for sample library content would have evolved to where it is today. I think we just kind of accept it, because we're just incrementally watching it build from month to month, and year to year.


----------



## wblaze

Can anyone comment on the sound or ease of use of SStB vs the brass that comes with my VSL SE 1 Plus? 

It feels like the same level of quality, just a different flavor.

I'm tempted by all the lower cost new tools this season but maybe I should get to writing more with what I already own!


----------



## NoamL

Lee Blaske said:


> Wow. What a video. How does CH do this, and where does he find the time to do it? All the things that need to come together to make a video like this (aside from building the product, in the first place) add up to a superhuman effort. Really nice composition, beautifully rendered, wonderfully mixed, and constructed in a very logical way to demonstrate and instruct. And then, he puts together an extremely tightly organized presentation that's interesting to watch, exciting, entertaining (and also very effective from a sales standpoint). Just being able to do a presentation like that is a full-time career for lots of folks. The set is well lit, and there are now a lot of fancy zoom-in shots on various windows.
> 
> If time machines existed, and someone could have shown me this video back in the early eighties when I first started buying samplers and sample libraries, I would NEVER have believed that the competitive market for sample library content would have evolved to where it is today. I think we just kind of accept it, because we're just incrementally watching it build from month to month, and year to year.



CH's vlogs are really well produced too and FULL of wisdom and advice.

EDIT: anyone who has doubts about this library's legatos just check out the euphoniums, horns and trumpets in this video. They sound fine! What the library lacks is re-tongue samples, which makes it somewhat difficult to play melodies (like the last phrase of the Gondor theme for example) where you've got repeated notes inside a legato phrase.

EDIT2: wow the sound of both libraries together is really something! Those contrabass tubas!!!


----------



## wilifordmusic

Quick question for you Studio Brass owners. 
What is the top concert pitch note for the solo trumpet and trumpets @2 without "hacking" anything.
Are the other artics, muted and shorts the same ranges?

thanks, Steve


----------



## Casiquire

wblaze said:


> Can anyone comment on the sound or ease of use of SStB vs the brass that comes with my VSL SE 1 Plus?
> 
> It feels like the same level of quality, just a different flavor.
> 
> I'm tempted by all the lower cost new tools this season but maybe I should get to writing more with what I already own!



As much as I love VSL, their brass is for orchestral and orchestral only. It's not as strong as many other offerings. My honest opinion is that even though it's great, these Spitfire demos really do sound much better


----------



## jbuhler

CH's contextual video along with the demos has pretty much convinced me on this. It's just a question of when to get it. Hopefully somebody not affiliated with SF will do a walk through and give us a bit better sense of the library as a whole (Paul's walk through was even sketchier than usual).


----------



## tokatila

So this is recorded in the same studio as Bernard Hermann....so basically BHCT could work as an kind of "Studio Albion" for eventually released Studio Orchestra...hmmm....


----------



## I like music

Lee Blaske said:


> Wow. What a video. How does CH do this, and where does he find the time to do it? All the things that need to come together to make a video like this (aside from building the product, in the first place) add up to a superhuman effort. Really nice composition, beautifully rendered, wonderfully mixed, and constructed in a very logical way to demonstrate and instruct. And then, he puts together an extremely tightly organized presentation that's interesting to watch, exciting, entertaining (and also very effective from a sales standpoint). Just being able to do a presentation like that is a full-time career for lots of folks. The set is well lit, and there are now a lot of fancy zoom-in shots on various windows.
> 
> If time machines existed, and someone could have shown me this video back in the early eighties when I first started buying samplers and sample libraries, I would NEVER have believed that the competitive market for sample library content would have evolved to where it is today. I think we just kind of accept it, because we're just incrementally watching it build from month to month, and year to year.



What is more, if you saw this video back in the 80s, and someone told you that people were fretting and worrying about whether it was even the best option (because the market now has so many good options) ... yeah, you'd definitely not believe that.


----------



## Rodney Money

Spitfire's vibrato, did they record the performer, or is it a filter?


----------



## Begfred

Rodney Money said:


> Spitfire's vibrato, did they record the performer, or is it a filter?


It’s recorded.


----------



## Lee Blaske

I like music said:


> What is more, if you saw this video back in the 80s, and someone told you that people were fretting and worrying about whether it was even the best option (because the market now has so many good options) ... yeah, you'd definitely not believe that.



You can say that again.


----------



## AdamKmusic

Purchased, just need to get home & download!


----------



## ed buller

Purchased. Worth every penny. Crisp, Bright, Fat, and Triumphant !....

Best

ed


----------



## Consona

We expect some demos incoming.


----------



## ed buller

Consona said:


> We expect some demos incoming.


no pressure then !

e


----------



## Gerbil

I've had a play through. Lot's of great stuff (the cimbasso needs some attention in the upper register though). Like SStS there's a lot of content to get to know.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Gerbil said:


> I've had a play through. Lot's of great stuff (the cimbasso needs some attention in the upper register though). Like SStS there's a lot of content to get to know.


I wouldn't write high for the cimbasso.. its not very practical. Its a "contrabass" instrument, so as much as it _can _go high it will sound strained - anything above C3 you can always just give to tenor or bass trombone to pelt away with ease.

I will also remark the cimbasso recorded in this library is an Eb horn, lower pitched than the more common F-tuned instruments. Its not as deep and booming as a C or Bb cimbasso but its quite low nonetheless.


----------



## Consona

Yea, just because intruments have some range does not mean you should ordinarily use it in its entirety. Most (all) instruments have their strong areas where they should be used, for things higher or lower you reorchestrate to another instruments.


----------



## Gerbil

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I wouldn't write high for the cimbasso.. its not very practical. Its a "contrabass" instrument, so as much as it _can _go high it will sound strained - anything above C3 you can always just give to tenor or bass trombone to pelt away with ease.
> 
> I will also remark the cimbasso recorded in this library is an Eb horn, lower pitched than the more common F-tuned instruments. Its not as deep and booming as a C or Bb cimbasso but its quite low nonetheless.



But should anyone have the inclination to write high then I'm sure notes that aren't flutter-tongued would be appreciated. It might just be a mix up of samples.


----------



## smallberries

tomosane said:


> They just uploaded a "Contextual" demo on Youtube:



hah! that euphonium cue is a bandoneon line from Piazzolla's 5 Tango Sensations...


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Gerbil said:


> But should anyone have the inclination to write high then I'm sure notes that aren't flutter-tongued would be appreciated. It might just be a mix up of samples.


? i dont think the cimbasso even has flutter tongue samples recorded in this library

edit: no, it doesn't  neither does the tuba. flutter isn't very effective on tuba-style mouthpieces (which is probably why they didn't record it on these two instruments. its possible but sounds poor.)


----------



## ed buller

it's a split note. But to be fair it's right at the top of it's compass. This Library is Fantastic !. The recording quality is sooooooo good. And the dryness really helps. The dynamic range is wonderful. The cross fades on the samples sound so clean. There are odd moments when the next layer peaks out a bit abruptly but it;s a rarity . For the price it's a no-brainer it really is

best

ed


----------



## Gerbil

Karl Feuerstake said:


> ? i dont think the cimbasso even has flutter tongue samples recorded in this library
> 
> edit: no, it doesn't  neither does the tuba. flutter isn't very effective on tuba-style mouthpieces (which is probably why they didn't record it on these two instruments. its possible but sounds poor.)



Someone got pretty carried away then. It's just a couple of poorly recorded samples that...well, flutter. Poor embouchure.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

ed buller said:


> it's a split note. But to be fair it's right at the top of it's compass.



That'd explain a lot. (I can't go and test my samples to find it until later tonight.) Even the world's best players can make mistakes; and ever more likely in the extreme ranges of a wind instrument


----------



## Ran Zhou

Trumpets a2+ solo trumpet 1. A direct play record, no further modulation.(FX: FL REV+EQ2+Limiter).

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme-mp3.17163/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_forcetheme-mp3.17164/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Living Fossil

ed buller said:


> The recording quality is sooooooo good. And the dryness really helps. The dynamic range is wonderful.



Have you already explored how they interact with the reverb when put in a large hall?
The video of CH explores it a bit, but not in a way that would answer this question for me.


----------



## madfloyd

I'm wondering if most of you are getting the core or pro version. While I want this, I also want CSB (e.g. I guess I intend to get both) but not sure how much I would regret it if I just bought the core version. Thoughts?


----------



## ed buller

Living Fossil said:


> Have you already explored how they interact with the reverb when put in a large hall?
> The video of CH explores it a bit, but not in a way that would answer this question for me.


well I just add a small church with a 3.5 sec decay and about 60ms of pre delay. Not too bright....sounds sumptuous

best

ed


----------



## wilifordmusic

Anybody? Top note ranges of the solo and ens trumpets.

thanks, Steve


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

madfloyd said:


> I'm wondering if most of you are getting the core or pro version. While I want this, I also want CSB (e.g. I guess I intend to get both) but not sure how much I would regret it if I just bought the core version. Thoughts?



I got the core for now because I just wanted to play with the new Cimbasso and Bass Trombones, for a budget price... will eventually get the Pro version but its not a priority at the moment.


----------



## Begfred

wilifordmusic said:


> Anybody? Top note ranges of the solo and ens trumpets.
> 
> thanks, Steve


C2-D5 for both on most articulations. Some articulations such muted and swells goes to C5.


----------



## wilifordmusic

Thanks a lot for the repsonse.

happy holidays, Steve


----------



## jamwerks

Ran Zhou said:


> Trumpets a2+ solo trumpet 1. A direct play record, no further modulation.(FX: FL REV+EQ2+Limiter).
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme-mp3.17163/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_forcetheme-mp3.17164/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Thanks for putting those up.
It sounds lovely, but just a bit too much room for my taste. Which mic's did you have up?


----------



## N.Caffrey

I'll leave it here


----------



## Marcio Lobato

N.Caffrey said:


> I'll leave it here



Man, Andy Blaney could sell ice to an eskimo. His demos are Spitfire's best ones.


----------



## Consona

Ran Zhou said:


> Trumpets a2+ solo trumpet 1. A direct play record, no further modulation.(FX: FL REV+EQ2+Limiter).
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme-mp3.17163/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_forcetheme-mp3.17164/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Just when I was teasing CSB for not having Time Machine patches... Those Indy shorts need to be way more snappy and you have a library that actually can shorten notes beyond their sampled length so you should utilize that.


----------



## Consona

Ran Zhou said:


> Trumpets a2+ solo trumpet 1. A direct play record, no further modulation.(FX: FL REV+EQ2+Limiter).
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme-mp3.17163/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_forcetheme-mp3.17164/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Is that the Tree 1 mic only? I really like this sound.


----------



## richhickey

Sorry folks, but I think this lib is a complete bust. It sounds simply awful, and the demos are dancing around it. I kept searching through the patches, wondering what I was missing. The answer? Pretty much everything you care about with brass. All of the legatos and longs are simply _inarticulate_ at onset. They have no initial voice, either bad editing or recording. Never mind the terrible mostly nonexistent legato transitions. And it's not just one instrument, it's all of them. The sustains sound like cheesy too-short loops. Seriously, you'd be better off with ROMpler brass than this lib. The room sounds lame too, it's just something to work around. Then you've got levels jumping around from note to note, and, within a note, jarring jumps through the dynamic range etc. The low dynamics are uniformly muddy.

This is by far the most disappointing lib I've ever gotten from Spitfire.

To get a sense of what it's missing, check out SStB vs (how old now?) VSL vs Berlin. Whatever variance on legatos, VSL and Berlin both seem like the same instrument and capture a sense of instrument/player/place/voice. SStB sounds like a brass harmonium or something. (And yes, I was playing SStB with the same legato as the others, to no avail). I looped around twice because situating SStB between the others makes the problems so evident.



And as I said, it's not just the horns. All of the instruments suffer similarly.

SStB kills the studio series for me (I didn't love the strings, but mostly on content and room, not quality, grounds). If you want to play minimalist shorts like a robot army, have at. If you want something that sounds like brass and can play brass parts, look elsewhere - IMO, YMMV.


----------



## madfloyd

Why do I always read these types of posts within seconds of making a purchase?


----------



## sostenuto

Hate it when critiques are wimpy and don't highlight problem issues !


----------



## Consona

richhickey said:


> Then you've got levels jumping around from note to note, and, within a note, jarring jumps through the dynamic range etc.


Can other users confirm this?


----------



## sostenuto

madfloyd said:


> Why do I always read these types of posts within seconds of making a purchase?



Geez …. and just put in my Cart too 

These are serious times when I truly find it frustrating NOT have Spitfire Audio active here and willing to participate technically and helpfully.

Sure, there are pitfalls, but several other top producers do this very effectively, and are an immense help to many users and library prospects.


----------



## Alex Fraser

richhickey said:


> Sorry folks, but I think this lib is a complete bust. It sounds simply awful, and the demos are dancing around it. I kept searching through the patches, wondering what I was missing. The answer? Pretty much everything you care about with brass. All of the legatos and longs are simply _inarticulate_ at onset. They have no initial voice, either bad editing or recording. Never mind the terrible mostly nonexistent legato transitions. And it's not just one instrument, it's all of them. The sustains sound like cheesy too-short loops. Seriously, you'd be better off with ROMpler brass than this lib. The room sounds lame too, it's just something to work around. Then you've got levels jumping around from note to note, and, within a note, jarring jumps through the dynamic range etc. The low dynamics are uniformly muddy.
> 
> This is by far the most disappointing lib I've ever gotten from Spitfire.
> 
> To get a sense of what it's missing, check out SStB vs (how old now?) VSL vs Berlin. Whatever variance on legatos, VSL and Berlin both seem like the same instrument and capture a sense of instrument/player/place/voice. SStB sounds like a brass harmonium or something. (And yes, I was playing SStB with the same legato as the others, to no avail). I looped around twice because situating SStB between the others makes the problems so evident.
> 
> 
> 
> And as I said, it's not just the horns. All of the instruments suffer similarly.
> 
> SStB kills the studio series for me (I didn't love the strings, but mostly on content and room, not quality, grounds). If you want to play minimalist shorts like a robot army, have at. If you want something that sounds like brass and can play brass parts, look elsewhere - IMO, YMMV.



I...I dunno. Did you use the same midi part for each demo? What about dynamics? I didn't see any sliders moving..

I'm sure you have good reasons for not liking the library - but this video doesn't really prove much.
Kind of like the endless "raiders" demos in the other thread.


----------



## Ran Zhou

jamwerks said:


> Thanks for putting those up.
> It sounds lovely, but just a bit too much room for my taste. Which mic's did you have up?


I think I used some Close plus the Tree mic, but not totally sure, I will double check when I got home. I always like the wet reverb preset (called venue) from FL studio, probably I have a weird taste.


----------



## Ran Zhou

Consona said:


> Just when I was teasing CSB for not having Time Machine patches... Those Indy shorts need to be way more snappy and you have a library that actually can shorten notes beyond their sampled length so you should utilize that.


Good suggestion, thanks!


Consona said:


> Is that the Tree 1 mic only


I will double-check that, I think I might add some close mic too.


----------



## richhickey

Alex Fraser said:


> I...I dunno. Did you use the same midi part for each demo? What about dynamics? I didn't see any sliders moving..
> 
> I'm sure you have good reasons for not liking the library - but this video doesn't really prove much.
> Kind of like the endless "raiders" demos in the other thread.



It's a live play through. I didn't move the dynamics in order to not introduce even more variables. The point was to make clear the sound, the lack of articulation, and the lack of legato, not to make an awesome Firebird  I don't have anything to prove, just trying to give people more info to make their own decisions.

Here's a better quality audio file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rllgl6nrn0f1s04/SStBvs.wav?dl=0


----------



## Consona

Ran Zhou said:


> Good suggestion, thanks!
> 
> I will double-check that, I think I might add some close mic too.


Thx. Could you, if you have some spare time, post that Indy demo again, but with Time Machine treatment and Tree 1 mics only? Wondering whether the normal version would be enough sound-wise and how well the stretching works.


----------



## NoamL

Rich - Can you retry it with adding a bit of Close 2? Or if you have the Pro version one of the premade mixes? Thx.


----------



## TintoL

OUCH..... that video comparison says a lot ......

yes, you can put a lot of work by knowing a library and modeling the sound by using a lot of editing. But, if the Berlin library gives the good sound out of the box, then, the comparison stands good grounds.


----------



## NoamL

Also you can dislike the library if you want, but saying that the demos were written to "dance around" its weaknesses is a bit much isn't it? Andy Blaney just posted a great demo that's very exposed. You can hear the horns legato at 0:48.


----------



## richhickey

NoamL said:


> Rich - Can you retry it with adding a bit of Close 2? Or if you have the Pro version one of the premade mixes? Thx.



I did try all of the mics, combos and mixes before settling on just demoing Tree1 (all you'll get with non-pro version). I'm not going to spend more time critiquing, it's not really my thing. I just wish someone had posted more critical-listening demos before I bought, so it's just a public service on my part  The audio (especially the wav) I posted above demonstrates a lot that no mic mix can fix.


----------



## richhickey

NoamL said:


> Also you can dislike the library if you want, but saying that the demos were written to "dance around" its weaknesses is a bit much isn't it? Andy Blaney just posted a great demo that's very exposed. You can hear the horns legato at 0:48.



I bought the library and can hear quite well, thanks. But peace, if you like the library ignore me  Different strokes.


----------



## djrustycans

This is getting stressful - I keep changing my mind. It’s worrying hearing reports like this but I can’t help but wonder if it would sound this bad once I got my hands on it?! The horns legato was bothering me anyway.. (Before the latest video above.). Surely Spitfire wouldn’t release something so shabby - this is not just business, it’s their passion.


----------



## jbuhler

NoamL said:


> Also you can dislike the library if you want, but saying that the demos were written to "dance around" its weaknesses is a bit much isn't it? Andy Blaney just posted a great demo that's very exposed. You can hear the horns legato at 0:48.


Where is this demo? I can't find it on the Spitfire site or on their YouTube channel.
Edit to add: Never mind. I found it upthread.


----------



## Gerbil

djrustycans said:


> This is getting stressful - I keep changing my mind. It’s worrying hearing reports like this but I can’t help but wonder if it would sound this bad once I got my hands on it?! The horns legato was bothering me anyway.. (Before the latest video above.). Surely Spitfire wouldn’t release something so shabby - this is not just business, it’s their passion.



richhickey posted: "Seriously, you'd be better off with ROMpler brass than this lib"

That should tell you a lot....not necessarily about the library. That's not to say it doesn't have its flaws.


----------



## sostenuto

djrustycans said:


> This is getting stressful - I keep changing my mind. It’s worrying hearing reports like this but I can’t help but wonder if it would sound this bad once I got my hands on it?! The horns legato was bothering me anyway.. (Before the latest video above.). Surely Spitfire wouldn’t release something so shabby - this is not just business, it’s their passion.



Exactly!!! which is why my earlier grumble about SFA not participating here. The top-tier providers truly know their specialties as well as anyone here …. even though always subject to flaws of various types and levels.

Severe critiques, like the earlier one here, are clearly important, but many /most of non-pro users have difficulty sorting providers' expert promotional capabilities versus other professionals' contrary impressions. 

Really frustrated now over several Spitfire Audio library releases and related, serious criticisms.


----------



## jbuhler

NoamL said:


> Also you can dislike the library if you want, but saying that the demos were written to "dance around" its weaknesses is a bit much isn't it? Andy Blaney just posted a great demo that's very exposed. You can hear the horns legato at 0:48.


Yes, I agree. And what does Horn solo 2 sound like, since these horns were optimized for different approaches to performance? And what does it sound like with the mod-wheel turned down a bit more? I'm not even sure I'm bugged by the sound here—for this passage, obviously I wouldn't like my horn playing like this, but in another context?


----------



## Alex Fraser

Disclaimer! Before I go any further, I'd like to stress I'm not addressing anyone particular in this thread or elsewhere on the forum, especially not Rich.

Every time someone posts an audio example on this forum suggesting that a library "doesn't sound good", all it does is invite more questions. Does the composer actually know what they're doing? (Not always.) Have they simply copied midi from another track and expected everything to work? What about dynamics? What about playing a musical part that's appropriate for the instrument? Or a musical line that reflects what the library is designed to do?

There are *so* many variables with this stuff. It's impossible to judge a library based on these small, solo musical nuggets.


----------



## germancomponist

richhickey said:


> It's a live play through. I didn't move the dynamics in order to not introduce even more variables. The point was to make clear the sound, the lack of articulation, and the lack of legato, not to make an awesome Firebird  I don't have anything to prove, just trying to give people more info to make their own decisions. ...



Ouch .... .


----------



## CT

Wow, Andy's demo is fantastic. And seasonal!

We need more people like him. People who can take pretty much any contemporary virtual instrument and show that 90% of what most of us see as weaknesses are actually shortcomings in our own skills as composers, programmers, and in my case especially, the *patience* required to really make something shine.


----------



## prodigalson

Funny, I actually the the legato in Berlin Brass sounds the worst in that example.


----------



## CT

TintoL said:


> OUCH..... that video comparison says a lot ......
> 
> yes, you can put a lot of work by knowing a library and modeling the sound by using a lot of editing. But, if the Berlin library gives the good sound out of the box, then, the comparison stands good grounds.



Shrug. I don't think it says much, actually. To me, none of the examples paint their respective libraries in a good "out of the box" light, because it's just notes punched in. 

I know richhickey wanted to demonstrate specific characteristics rather than give a super-polished demo, but all I hear are three different tones and three different takes on how prominent legato transitions should be, rather than glaring differences in quality and usability. 

What the best tone and legato type are will differ from person to person, of course, but what those are for this library were, in my opinion, in full view for assessment before purchasing, through Paul's videos.

Interestingly, if we're going purely by the static tone and legato of these examples, I like what VSL does the most. But I've worked with the VSL solo horn, and I know better. Oh boy, do I know better.


----------



## richhickey

Alex Fraser said:


> Disclaimer! Before I go any further, I'd like to stress I'm not addressing anyone particular in this thread or elsewhere on the forum, especially not Rich.
> 
> Every time someone posts an audio example on this forum suggesting that a library "doesn't sound good", all it does is invite more questions. Does the composer actually know what they're doing? (Not always.) Have they simply copied midi from another track and expected everything to work? What about dynamics? What about playing a musical part that's appropriate for the instrument? Or a musical line that reflects what the library is designed to do?
> 
> There are *so* many variables with this stuff. It's impossible to judge a library based on these small, solo musical nuggets.



No offense taken, Alex. Certainly, a little demo like mine is but an anecdote. So, correct, you can't extrapolate from it. On the other hand, it _is_ a bit of evidence, which can be looked at in and of itself only, but then, I think, _objectively_.

So pull up the wav file I posted in a good listening environment. Here's what I hear:

===
Level:

Remember, by design, all these recordings were made in dynamic xfade mode with the dynamics CC _fixed_. Yes, yes, that's not what you'd do to get the most natural performance. But when you eventually ride the dynamic CC you are emulating adjustments and arcs that players make with extreme consistency. So how will that work if, as in the case of SStB in this demo, _the levels are all over the place when the dynamics aren't even moving_? How will you be expressive and/or mix with that?

VSL OTOH is incredibly tight, Berlin a bit less so.

Legato:

VSL clearly has recorded legato transitions, with a ton of character, for all the transitions in this 5-note bit.
Berlin also, mostly, but somewhat smoothed out by the recording distance.
SStB demonstrates no legato transitions at all.

Sound:

In spite of being very different recording techniques, VSL and Berlin basically sound like the same instrument. They demonstrate roughly the same spectrum of important frequencies and character. They have note onset articulation. SStB sounds unlike them and unlike a horn. Its onsets all ramp. There is no sense of lips on mouthpiece, breath etc. There is no voice. Harmonium wasn't just a dig, it's the impression given by this ramping and lack of splat if you will.

Consistency/QC

VSL is clearly the most consistent. SStB, in just this 5 note sample, has a note with a bad loop (the same note that spikes most in level). Can you hear it?
===

Does a tiny demo inherently represent a whole library? No, it's just my assertion that the demo is indicative of what I found throughout. Need you trust me? Of course not. Drop $299 and find out for yourself  These things matter to me, they may not to you, many aspects remain subjective etc. That's what the YMMV is about.

Next time out though, I'll let the demo speak for itself and leave out the editorializing. Sorry about that. It's not my intention to get people upset.


----------



## Alex Fraser

richhickey said:


> No offense taken, Alex. Certainly, a little demo like mine is but an anecdote. So, correct, you can't extrapolate from it. On the other hand, it _is_ a bit of evidence, which can be looked at in and of itself only, but then, I think, _objectively_.
> 
> So pull up the wav file I posted in a good listening environment. Here's what I hear:
> 
> ===
> Level:
> 
> Remember, by design, all these recordings were made in dynamic xfade mode with the dynamics CC _fixed_. Yes, yes, that's not what you'd do to get the most natural performance. But when you eventually ride the dynamic CC you are emulating adjustments and arcs that players make with extreme consistency. So how will that work if, as in the case of SStB in this demo, _the levels are all over the place when the dynamics aren't even moving_? How will you be expressive and/or mix with that?
> 
> VSL OTOH is incredibly tight, Berlin a bit less so.
> 
> Legato:
> 
> VSL clearly has recorded legato transitions, with a ton of character, for all the transitions in this 5-note bit.
> Berlin also, mostly, but somewhat smoothed out by the recording distance.
> SStB demonstrates no legato transitions at all.
> 
> Sound:
> 
> In spite of being very different recording techniques, VSL and Berlin basically sound like the same instrument. They demonstrate roughly the same spectrum of important frequencies and character. They have note onset articulation. SStB sounds unlike them and unlike a horn. Its onsets all ramp. There is no sense of lips on mouthpiece, breath etc. There is no voice. Harmonium wasn't just a dig, it's the impression given by this ramping and lack of splat if you will.
> 
> Consistency/QC
> 
> VSL is clearly the most consistent. SStB, in just this 5 note sample, has a note with a bad loop (the same note that spikes most in level). Can you hear it?
> ===
> 
> Does a tiny demo inherently represent a whole library? No, it's just my assertion that the demo is indicative of what I found throughout. Need you trust me? Of course not. Drop $299 and find out for yourself  These things matter to me, they may not to you, many aspects remain subjective etc. That's what the YMMV is about.
> 
> Next time out though, I'll let the demo speak for itself and leave out the editorializing. Sorry about that. It's not my intention to get people upset.


Actually, I think this editorial gives weight to the demos. Thanks!


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

Are there any Spitfire libraries that have good legato transitions?


----------



## artomatic

richhickey said:


> No offense taken, Alex. Certainly, a little demo like mine is but an anecdote. So, correct, you can't extrapolate from it. On the other hand, it _is_ a bit of evidence, which can be looked at in and of itself only, but then, I think, _objectively_.
> 
> So pull up the wav file I posted in a good listening environment. Here's what I hear:
> 
> ===
> Level:
> 
> Remember, by design, all these recordings were made in dynamic xfade mode with the dynamics CC _fixed_. Yes, yes, that's not what you'd do to get the most natural performance. But when you eventually ride the dynamic CC you are emulating adjustments and arcs that players make with extreme consistency. So how will that work if, as in the case of SStB in this demo, _the levels are all over the place when the dynamics aren't even moving_? How will you be expressive and/or mix with that?
> 
> VSL OTOH is incredibly tight, Berlin a bit less so.
> 
> Legato:
> 
> VSL clearly has recorded legato transitions, with a ton of character, for all the transitions in this 5-note bit.
> Berlin also, mostly, but somewhat smoothed out by the recording distance.
> SStB demonstrates no legato transitions at all.
> 
> Sound:
> 
> In spite of being very different recording techniques, VSL and Berlin basically sound like the same instrument. They demonstrate roughly the same spectrum of important frequencies and character. They have note onset articulation. SStB sounds unlike them and unlike a horn. Its onsets all ramp. There is no sense of lips on mouthpiece, breath etc. There is no voice. Harmonium wasn't just a dig, it's the impression given by this ramping and lack of splat if you will.
> 
> Consistency/QC
> 
> VSL is clearly the most consistent. SStB, in just this 5 note sample, has a note with a bad loop (the same note that spikes most in level). Can you hear it?
> ===
> 
> Does a tiny demo inherently represent a whole library? No, it's just my assertion that the demo is indicative of what I found throughout. Need you trust me? Of course not. Drop $299 and find out for yourself  These things matter to me, they may not to you, many aspects remain subjective etc. That's what the YMMV is about.
> 
> Next time out though, I'll let the demo speak for itself and leave out the editorializing. Sorry about that. It's not my intention to get people upset.





I own most of Spitfire's major libs but this is making me look at CSB a lot closer.


----------



## rhye

Andy Blaney’s demo is fantastic! (as usual)
But I think that it is interesting that it is so wet for a library advertised as dry.


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

miket said:


> Shrug. I don't think it says much, actually. To me, none of the examples paint their respective libraries in a good "out of the box" light, because it's just notes punched in.
> 
> I know richhickey wanted to demonstrate specific characteristics rather than give a super-polished demo, but all I hear are three different tones and three different takes on how prominent legato transitions should be, rather than glaring differences in quality and usability.
> 
> What the best tone and legato type are will differ from person to person, of course, but what those are for this library were, in my opinion, in full view for assessment before purchasing, through Paul's videos.
> 
> Interestingly, if we're going purely by the static tone and legato of these examples, I like what VSL does the most. But I've worked with the VSL solo horn, and I know better. Oh boy, do I know better.



I have to disagree, I think it was useful to hear this demo. I haven't heard any demo of this library on this thread that sounds convincing yet.


----------



## jbuhler

Soprano_Sundays said:


> I have to disagree, I think it was useful to hear this demo. I haven't heard any demo of this library on this thread that sounds convincing yet.


Sure, this example showed me one setting not to use if I want to use this library to render a convincing solo from Firebird. I agree with you that it would be nice to have more demos, especially from users. But this thread is starting to follow the same useless trajectory as the one on Studio Strings, which made it harder, not easier, to figure out what the library was capable of and where its real limitations lie.


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> Sure, this example showed me one setting not to use if I want to use this library to render a convincing solo from Firebird. I agree with you that it would be nice to have more demos, especially from users. But this thread is starting to follow the same useless trajectory as the one on Studio Strings, which made it harder, not easier, to figure out what the library was capable of and where its real limitations lie.



Yep ! …. and both Threads have truly 'soured' me going forward; as well as errant spray on planned SF libs as well. 
Quick to add …. _my_ scoring /orch _weaknesses_ make me especially vulnerable to critiques by apparent, capable users. 
This Thread has thrown a huge shade on planned Wishlist activity. Hopefully more clarifications will help sort this.


----------



## I like music

On the one hand, threads like these make me wonder why some developers won't be active on these forums. It is a great opportunity to clarify things and respond to feedback.

On the other hand, I'm assuming that they know their economics (and that there's probably a ton of customers who don't visit these forums, so it maybe doesn't affect them all that much) and also, some probably feel that they can't really positively affect the outcome/direction of said threads.


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

jbuhler said:


> Sure, this example showed me one setting not to use if I want to use this library to render a convincing solo from Firebird. I agree with you that it would be nice to have more demos, especially from users. But this thread is starting to follow the same useless trajectory as the one on Studio Strings, which made it harder, not easier, to figure out what the library was capable of and where its real limitations lie.



I wish Spitfire would develop some better legato / transition samples. All of the demos that I've heard of this library demonstrate a weakness in realistic transitions including the ones on Spitfire's soundcloud page. A lot of the defining characteristics of an instrument come from the first attack / transient of the instrument. Which is why when you listen to the short articulations of libraries they sound more realistic than the longs / legatos. (Something to bear in mind if watching a new library demo, if they start with the shorts)

I was listening to the Joshua Bell Virtual Violin which seems to be at the forefront of realistic sounding sample instruments. Has anyone else got suggestions of any other instruments that follow this kind of programming for Brass? Or is it too difficult yet?


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Yep ! …. and both Threads have truly 'soured' me going forward; as well as errant spray on planned SF libs as well.
> Quick to add …. _my_ scoring /orch _weaknesses_ make me especially vulnerable to critiques by apparent, capable users.
> This Thread has thrown a huge shade on planned Wishlist activity. Hopefully more clarifications will help sort this.


Just to be clear: I didn’t find that example exposed any weakness in the library. It did not give reason to buy the library but it also gave no reason not to buy it. And for my money CH’s contextual video was far more informative. What I’d like is someone who isn’t CH to do a good contextual video so I had a better sense of its capabilities and limitations.


----------



## Alex Fraser

sostenuto said:


> Yep ! …. and both Threads have truly 'soured' me going forward; as well as errant spray on planned SF libs as well.
> Quick to add …. _my_ scoring /orch _weaknesses_ make me especially vulnerable to critiques by apparent, capable users.
> This Thread has thrown a huge shade on planned Wishlist activity. Hopefully more clarifications will help sort this.


I think that sort of thinking will only muddy the waters, tbh.
Maybe look at it like this:

Every library has limitations and annoyances.
No library will be "the one" that you'll want to stick with forever. There's always a bigger/newer fish.
It's easier to find criticism online than praise, and those who are displeased are more vocal.
Everyone is an "expert" online. Not all opinions count. 



I like music said:


> On the other hand, I'm assuming that they know their economics (and that there's probably a ton of customers who don't visit these forums, so it maybe doesn't affect them all that much) and also, some probably feel that they can't really positively affect the outcome/direction of said threads.


Yep. Judging by the communities on social media, youtube etc - I think VI control is small potatoes now to Spitfire. Also, history has shown these sort of threads degenerate eventually and never resolve.


----------



## clisma

richhickey said:


> No offense taken, Alex. Certainly, a little demo like mine is but an anecdote. So, correct, you can't extrapolate from it. On the other hand, it _is_ a bit of evidence, which can be looked at in and of itself only, but then, I think, _objectively_.
> 
> Does a tiny demo inherently represent a whole library? No, it's just my assertion that the demo is indicative of what I found throughout. Need you trust me? Of course not. Drop $299 and find out for yourself  These things matter to me, they may not to you, many aspects remain subjective etc. That's what the YMMV is about.



If I may be so bold, even in the universally adored Andy Blaney's piece, the intro sounds almost "stitched" together. One can clearly hear the articulations being used and the difficulty in creating a flowing phrase. And no, I could not do better, and that is exactly the point.

@richhickey - Thanks for posting. Your example glorified my fear about the possible incoherence between articulations. Obviously, it can sound great, but if you're on deadlines, great has to happen almost instantly. For that, it would seem to me that CSB might be a better fit for me.


----------



## jbuhler

Soprano_Sundays said:


> I wish Spitfire would develop some better legato / transition samples. A lot of the defining characteristics of an instrument come from the first attack / transient of the instrument. Which is why when you listen to the short articulations of libraries they sound more realistic than the longs / legatos. (Something to bear in mind if watching a new library demo, if they start with the shorts)


I’m definitely in the camp of those who think legato is overrated and writing idiomatically far more important. I notice it more when it’s present (in a bad way) than when it’s lacking. And the problem with that Firebird solo wasn’t the legato...


----------



## CT

jbuhler said:


> Sure, this example showed me one setting not to use if I want to use this library to render a convincing solo from Firebird.






It holds up ok to me, in context. Not perfect, but no VI is, and given that the New York Philharmonic isn't sitting in front of me waiting to play what I write, I'll take not perfect.


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

jbuhler said:


> I’m definitely in the camp of those who think legato is overrated and writing idiomatically far more important. I notice it more when it’s present (in a bad way) than when it’s lacking. And the problem with that Firebird solo wasn’t the legato...



Thats fair enough and it completely depends on what writing you are doing. But as I said before the most defining characteristic of an instrument (what makes it identifiable) is the beginning of the note. If you are blurring instruments together this isn't as much of an issue but if you are writing for exposed legato strings you need to hear transitions.


----------



## sostenuto

Alex Fraser said:


> I think that sort of thinking will only muddy the waters, tbh.
> **************



All true and taken as intended. 

Dunno _why_ these several SFA_Studio Strings /Brass critiques have had particular impact ….. but they have. 'Limitations and annoyances' are one thing, but these seemed more objective, technical, demonstrable than many. 

_Always open to solid advice and moving forward._


----------



## ism

Soprano_Sundays said:


> I wish Spitfire would develop some better legato / transition samples. All of the demos that I've heard of this library demonstrate a weakness in realistic transitions including the ones on Spitfire's soundcloud page. A lot of the defining characteristics of an instrument come from the first attack / transient of the instrument. Which is why when you listen to the short articulations of libraries they sound more realistic than the longs / legatos. (Something to bear in mind if watching a new library demo, if they start with the shorts)
> 
> I was listening to the Joshua Bell Virtual Violin which seems to be at the forefront of realistic sounding sample instruments. Has anyone else got suggestions of any other instruments that follow this kind of programming for Brass? Or is it too difficult yet?



JB is indeed spectacular - and has 13 types of legato, and is $200 for 1 mic on 1 instrument (though part of it's brilliance at the cost of a design decision to have no dynamic cross fade).

Extrapolating (in wildly hand waving manor) to this library - it has 17 instruments, which at JB levels of sampling would come out to $3400 + lets say a factor of 50% for the extra mics, then rounding down a little because probably brass is a little easier to sample, and we're at say $4500. Also, two years of development per instrument, we're probably looking at another 34 years of development, so preorder now to get it in ... ok the extrapolation does get a bit silly at some point. 

I'd be very interested myself to know more about how far away state of the art solo strings sampling is from brass - so sorry I can't be helpful with your actual question.

But just though I'd foreground the apples to oranges endemic to any comparison.


----------



## ism

Alex Fraser said:


> Also, history has shown these sort of threads degenerate eventually and never resolve.



I don't believe it was always thus. Most thread on new instruments tend to be quite useful. Then something changed.

Even the recent EWC thread was a genuinely useful thread. Lots of honest praise, lots of honest critique, all of it was interesting and valuable. Not everyone decided it was the library for them, but everyone seemed to go home happy. (It was kind of unnerving actually.)


----------



## Ran Zhou

Consona said:


> Thx. Could you, if you have some spare time, post that Indy demo again, but with Time Machine treatment and Tree 1 mics only? Wondering whether the normal version would be enough sound-wise and how well the stretching works.


I also noticed I had several places out of rhythm.Shame on myself......
I put Tree1 Only, Close1 Only, and a default mix with a few fixation on the midi sequence.


jamwerks said:


> Which mic's did you have up


Mic setup : C1+T1 for Trumpet Solo 1, T1 for Trumpets a2.
I barely know things about mixing, so I tried the default reverb.
Tree1 Only:
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme_tmshort_tree_fxbypass-mp3.17203/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Close1 Only:
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme_tmshort_close_fxbypass-mp3.17204/][/AUDIOPLUS]
FL default reverb:
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme_tmshort_defaultrevmix-mp3.17207/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Extented, throne room (doubled with Horn a4 in the repeat)
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_forcetheme_ext-mp3.17208/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## jamwerks

If I remember correctly from Paul's walk-through, the "Tree 2" mic's seemed to have less room.


----------



## CT

jamwerks said:


> If I remember correctly from Paul's walk-through, the "Tree 2" mic's seemed to have less room.



I think so. I don't have the pro version, but that's true of the BHT mics.


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

ism said:


> JB is indeed spectacular - and has 13 types of legato, and is $200 for 1 mic on 1 instrument (though part of it's brilliance at the cost of a design decision to have no dynamic cross fade).
> 
> Extrapolating (in wildly hand waving manor) to this library - it has 17 instruments, which at JB levels of sampling would come out to $3400 + lets say a factor of 50% for the extra mics, then rounding down a little because probably brass is a little easier to sample, and we're at say $4500. Also, two years of development per instrument, we're probably looking at another 34 years of development, so preorder now to get it in ... ok the extrapolation does get a bit silly at some point.
> 
> I'd be very interested myself to know more about how far away state of the art solo strings sampling is from brass - so sorry I can't be helpful with your actual question.
> 
> But just though I'd foreground the apples to oranges endemic to any comparison.



No sure and I think String sampling is ahead of brass at the moment. I have some Spitfire libraries and some of the articulations are fantastic (Chamber Strings - Flautando / Shorts). But I also have Cinematic Studio Solo Strings and Cinematic Studio Strings and legato is far more convincing although the lack of vibrato control is a little frustrating.

I guess different developers place different values on different aspects. Spitfire seems to concentrate on having a large number of articulations and mic positions. Where I guess I would prefer the one to three mic approach with more attention to transitions.


----------



## Architekton

Soprano_Sundays said:


> But I also have Cinematic Studio Solo Strings and Cinematic Studio Strings and legato is far more convincing although the lack of vibrato control is a little frustrating.



Did you read manual?


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

Architekton said:


> Did you read manual?



Yes what am I missing? I find its either on or off?


----------



## jbuhler

miket said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jgra6mi1kbezh9/fbhorn.wav?dl=0
> 
> It holds up ok to me, in context. Not perfect, but no VI is, and given that the New York Philharmonic isn't sitting in front of me waiting to play what I write, I'll take not perfect.


I agree in context it sounds good. What settings did you use?


----------



## Ran Zhou

jamwerks said:


> If I remember correctly from Paul's walk-through, the "Tree 2" mic's seemed to have less room.


Made a Tree2 only, does sound even drier than tree1.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sfstbrass_jonestheme_tmshort_tree2_fxbypass-mp3.17210/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## richhickey

miket said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jgra6mi1kbezh9/fbhorn.wav?dl=0
> 
> It holds up ok to me, in context. Not perfect, but no VI is, and given that the New York Philharmonic isn't sitting in front of me waiting to play what I write, I'll take not perfect.



Thanks for posting. I understand you and @jbuhler have sunk costs, as do I! And I am not trying to make you feel bad about your purchase. But, legatos aside, objectively, your sample demonstrates exactly what I was talking about. The notes ramp in, more like you would do with a synth to _emulate_ brass, both fading in the attack and opening a filter.

But these are samples. They should capture and reproduce the wonderful blossoming of a brass note and they don't. Most of the character of brass is in this moment.

I sincerely hope that they've recorded this and it's something they could expose via revised editing/trimming. The shorts are better in this regard but still exhibit some bizarre onset truncation. I don't understand what has happened here, as it doesn't seem like an artistic or even a performance/latency decision.


----------



## jbuhler

richhickey said:


> Thanks for posting. I understand you and @jbuhler have sunk costs, as do I! And I am not trying to make you feel bad about your purchase. But, legatos aside, objectively, your sample demonstrates exactly what I was talking about. The notes ramp in, more like you would do with a synth to _emulate_ brass, both fading in the attack and opening a filter.


I have no sunk costs, as I've not yet purchased. Nice diversion of the conversation. You've yet to demonstrate anything other than that the horn 1 solo patch at that modwheel setting doesn't render the solo well in isolation. But whatever.


----------



## richhickey

jbuhler said:


> I have no sunk costs, as I've not yet purchased.



Sorry, my mistake.


----------



## ism

Rich - quite interested in your critique here, but may I respectfully suggest that lines like this:




richhickey said:


> If you want to play minimalist shorts like a robot army, have at. If you want something that sounds like brass and can play brass parts, look elsewhere - IMO, YMMV.





might pay lip service to respecting a diversity of opinion, yet its very hard not to read his as an insult an anyone who might actually like the library. And, speaking as someone who really likes almost all of what I've hear of this library so far, it's kind of a vicious personal insult on our musical judgement if you think about it, if perhaps an unintended one. I'm interested in your critique - but when I read a line like think I just get that sinking feeling because, well, this is the internet.


And then line like this:



richhickey said:


> I understand you and @jbuhler have sunk costs, as do I!



Risks giving the impression that you're further attacking anyone disagreeing with you by suggesting that their moves aren't honest.

Which I mention, because I'm quite interested in the points your making and would really like to seem them substantively engaged (so it's really unfortunate the tone some of this is taking here).

A question though - I do hear that lack of a pronounced attack on the horn you point out - although I also quite like the soft attack in context. Is this the sort of library where you can craft the dynamics of the individual note with the mod wheel? Some library do this brilliant (including most spitfire libraries), buy many not so much. (I'm not really sure what's reasonably to expect from brass libraries - so apologies for my ignorance, the only dedicated full brass library I have is so terrible that Paul and Christian could sample a kazoo and it be over the moon at what an improvement it is (so long as it was in AIR) ). Very hard to tell from what I've seen what capacity we have for crafting the dynamics. You can do this to great effect with the new solo strings, so wondering if the same might be true for the brass?


Update - you do speak to this point to in that last post to some extent in the above - so thanks, that was helpful. So now I'd refine my question to I think much the same thing @jbuhler has been asking - can you get a better attack 'blooming' at higher values of cc1?

Because on its own, what I'd be most likely to conclude from you example that Spitfire probably intended the soft dyanamic to have a soft attack as a favour to people like my self who rally love the softest parts of articulations. And maybe also that I don't care for the build in reverb. . Thoughts?


----------



## Soundhound

Regret confirmation is the new bias confirmation. Very 2019!



madfloyd said:


> Why do I always read these types of posts within seconds of making a purchase?


----------



## CT

richhickey said:


> I understand you and @jbuhler have sunk costs, as do I!



Yeah, it's not really about sunk costs. I thought and listened very carefully before going down the new Studio road when the strings were released, and was just as careful about continuing with this one. I'm quite pleased with the library so far, and think I made the right decision.

You've offered your perspective on some things, I'm just offering my own as well.


----------



## ism

I think this might be the answer I was looking for - Horn 2 has more 'splat' in the attack - starting at ~ 5:32. So here's how you can get the full spat of the sampled attack, though I'm still trying to get a sense of how you can craft he dynamics after the attack. I took me a while to figure this out in some of the SSW instruments, and solo strings, but you really can shape the dynamics o great effect.

A pity horn 2 is only in the pro version. All the same, if you don't like the soft attack, it should possible to not use the horn with the soft attack.


----------



## richhickey

ism said:


> Rich - quite interested in your critique here, but may I respectfully suggest that lines like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> might pay lip service to respecting a diversity of opinion, yet its very hard not to read his as an insult an anyone who might actually like the library. And, speaking as someone who really likes almost all of what I've hear of this library so far, it's kind of a vicious personal insult on our musical judgement if you think about, if perhaps an unintented one. I'm interested in your critique - but when I read a line like think I just get that sinking feeling because, well, this is the internet.
> 
> 
> And then line like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Risks giving the impression that you're further attacking anyone disagreeing with you by suggesting that their moves aren't honest.
> 
> Which I mention, because I'm quite interested in the points your making and would really like to seem them substantively engaged (so it's really unfortunate the tone some of this is taking here).
> 
> A question though - I do hear that lack of a pronounced attack on the horn you point out - although I also quite like the soft attack in context. Is this the sort of library where you can craft the dynamics of the individual note with the mod wheel? Some library do this brilliant (including most spitfire libraries), buy many not so much. (I'm not really sure what's reasonably to expect from brass libraries - so apologies for my ignorance, the only dedicated full brass library I have is so terrible that Paul and Christian could sample a kazoo and it be over the moon at what an improvement it is (so long as it was in AIR) ). Very hard to tell from what I've seen what capacity we have for crafting the dynamics. You can do this to great effect with the new solo strings, so wondering if the same might be true for the brass?
> 
> 
> Update - you do speak to this point to in that last post to some extent in the above - so thanks, that was helpful. So now I'd refine my question to I think much the same thing @jbuhler has been asking - can you get a better attack 'blooming' at higher values of cc1?
> 
> Because on its own, what I'd be most likely to conclude from you example that Spitfire probably intended the soft dyanamic to have a soft attack as a favour to people like my self who rally love the softest parts of articulations. And maybe also that I don't care for the build in reverb. . Thoughts?



First off, I would very much like to ramp this down whilst anyone is taking this personally or feeling slighted. That's not the way I roll. 

The 'robot army of shorts' was an admittedly snarky poke at the library's suitability to task, not aimed at its fans or their music. The 'sunk cost' comment was an explicit attempt to diffuse people feeling bad because they had already purchased. I did not state nor intend to state that anyone was suffering from 'sunk cost fallacy' and that's also why I included myself.

I'm now super aware that people are attaching themselves to the defense of this library and Spitfire, and having said my bit I'm happy to have others say theirs and stay out of it. I sincerely hate personal internet arguments. I'm still not sure how to give a head's up warning here on a new library without triggering this kind of thread, but have already acknowledged my editorializing didn't help. That said, concrete examples of potential trouble are something I'd really have appreciated more often before my own purchases, including this one.

I will thus answer your objective question then beg off. First, the ramping problem is by far the worst on the legato patches when there should be a legato transition, regardless of dynamic. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to recognize something about this script is just busted because the legato transition seems to be MIA and we're only getting the crossfade of the next note. Legatos aside, across the articulations _and_ dynamics, I just keep feeling like some envelope ramp is being superimposed over the natural blossoming of notes. It seems like the blossoming _is_ under there, but loses out to the envelope. Does that make sense? I thought it might be to enable the 'tightness' slider, but that doesn't seem to do much of anything. The A/Bing with other libs wasn't to start a pissing match, just something I had set up to help me pinpoint what I was hearing. I do have VSL/Berlin/CH brass and in comparison (to the new CSB demos as well) it seems something is 'off'. I'd like nothing better than for Spitfire to discover it's just a wayward setting in the scripts.

At some point we reach the limits of talking about sound, but I'm not going to make a more extensive demo to demonstrate a negative point. I'm a fan of Spitfire and own a lot of their stuff. I wish everyone the best with the lib and their music.


----------



## jbuhler

ism said:


> I think this might be the answer I was looking for - Horn 2 has more 'splat' in the attack - starting at ~ 5:32. So here's how you can get he full spat of the sampled attack, though I'm still trying to get a sense of how you can craft he dynamics after the attack. I took me a while to figure this out in some of the SSW instruments, and solo strings, but you really can shape the dynamics o great effect.
> 
> A pity horn 2 is only in the pro version. All the same, if you don't like the soft attack, it should possible to not use the horn with the soft attack.



yes, it seems to me the longs in SF instruments are very much built with the idea that you will ride the modwheel to some extent and shape the sound appropriately. I think someone also said that the dynamic layers are fairly close together on the modwheel—or maybe that was CSB. It's all blurring together... But if that's the case, it might make the sound harder to control depending on how smooth the crossfades between layers are. That's another reason I'd like to see and hear more working demos of those with the library—to get a better idea of the mechanics of the library.


----------



## jbuhler

richhickey said:


> First, the ramping problem is by far the worst on the legato patches when there should be a legato transition, regardless of dynamic. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to recognize something about this script is just busted because the legato transition seems to be MIA and we're only getting the crossfade of the next note. Legatos aside, across the articulations _and_ dynamics, I just keep feeling like some envelope ramp is being superimposed over the natural blossoming of notes. It seems like the blossoming _is_ under there, but loses out to the envelope. Does that make sense? I thought it might be to enable the 'tightness' slider, but that doesn't seem to do much of anything. The A/Bing with other libs wasn't to start a pissing match, just something I had set up to help me pinpoint what I was hearing. I do have VSL/Berlin/CH brass and in comparison (to the new CSB demos as well) it seems something is 'off'. I'd like nothing better than for Spitfire to discover it's just a wayward setting in the scripts.


This is a very helpful intervention and I understand your concerns much better now. Thanks for sharing them.


----------



## sostenuto

richhickey said:


> First off, I would very much like to ramp this down whilst anyone is taking this personally or feeling slighted. That's not the way I roll.
> 
> I will thus answer your objective question then beg off. First, the ramping problem is by far the worst on the legato patches when there should be a legato transition, regardless of dynamic. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to recognize something about this script is just busted because the legato transition seems to be MIA and we're only getting the crossfade of the next note. Legatos aside, across the articulations _and_ dynamics, I just keep feeling like some envelope ramp is being superimposed over the natural blossoming of notes. It seems like the blossoming _is_ under there, but loses out to the envelope. **************************
> At some point we reach the limits of talking about sound, but I'm not going to make a more extensive demo to demonstrate a negative point. I'm a fan of Spitfire and own a lot of their stuff. I wish everyone the best with the lib and their music.



I took your earlier posts to be valid and help set my expectations properly. Subsequent comment seemed to advise more tolerance on my part. 
Becomes dang tough, as lifetime pianist /musician to sort many of these technical /orchestral issues.

This current post reinforces earlier concerns, and disappointment if you withdraw from further discussion of issues you feel notable.


----------



## ism

richhickey said:


> I will thus answer your objective question then beg off. First, the ramping problem is by far the worst on the legato patches when there should be a legato transition, regardless of dynamic. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were to recognize something about this script is just busted because the legato transition seems to be MIA and we're only getting the crossfade of the next note. Legatos aside, across the articulations _and_ dynamics, I just keep feeling like some envelope ramp is being superimposed over the natural blossoming of notes. It seems like the blossoming _is_ under there, but loses out to the envelope. Does that make sense? I thought it might be to enable the 'tightness' slider, but that doesn't seem to do much of anything. The A/Bing with other libs wasn't to start a pissing match, just something I had set up to help me pinpoint what I was hearing. I do have VSL/Berlin/CH brass and in comparison (to the new CSB demos as well) it seems something is 'off'. I'd like nothing better than for Spitfire to discover it's just a wayward setting in the scripts.
> 
> At some point we reach the limits of talking about sound, but I'm not going to make a more extensive demo to demonstrate a negative point. I'm a fan of Spitfire and own a lot of their stuff. I wish everyone the best with the lib and their music.



Thanks - I'm starting from almost nothing in trying to get my head around what to listen for in a brass library, so this kind of analysis, combined with the spitfire demos (which I do find generally to be reliably helpful) is really very helpful.

(And the notion of 'the splat' is my favourite new concept of the day. Although, in fairness, the only other new concepts the day has proved as competition have all involved some crazily abstract algebra, so it wasn't all that competitive).


----------



## CT

I should say that I might just be coming from an ideology that doesn't necessarily line up with some people's, which is best summed up as, "things are good enough."

Most of us would choose real players over the best sample library if given the choice. I'm no different. But I probably take it further than many others, in that I don't *ever* expect to be more than *just barely* satisfied by virtual instruments. Maybe that's the result of being forced to work with crappy tools for so long, or spending so much time around the real thing. I don't expect perfection or anything remotely near it from this stuff. I don't mind something dodgy here and there, as long as it doesn't cause the music itself to totally collapse.

In 2018, if you spend smartly and don't cheap out, that doesn't seem to happen anymore. I think you can do something great with almost any reputable VI out there, if only you give it something great to do. I think we're well past the days of samples fundamentally undermining musicality in any significant way. Over the last few years, I don't think I've heard more than one or two serious critiques of a new library that weren't by my standards almost completely irrelevant.

Now, that's fine, as there's nothing wrong with pushing developers to do better. And I'm thrilled with each new leap forward, each bug fix, etc. But if it doesn't stop me from making music, I guess I just don't really care much, and it's been a long time since I've run into something that stopped me from making music (ok, at least as far as samples are concerned).

I don't own five or ten different brass libraries, and no matter how much cash I may have in my pocket, I never will. It's not my way of doing things, for better or worse. After several disappointments over the years which were resold or deleted, this is now the only dedicated brass library that lives on my hard drive, and I think it will stay that way for some time. It has its issues, but ultimately its value will be determined by what I do with it, not by those issues.

Anyway... if you agree with all that nonsense, and like the sound of it, then yes, this may be the library for you!


----------



## Consona

Ran Zhou said:


> I put Tree1 Only, Close1 Only, and a default mix with a few fixation on the midi sequence.


Thank you. Default mix means what exactly? So the Throne Room example was this default mix, yes?


----------



## TintoL

miket said:


> but all I hear are three different tones


I agree with what you are saying. VSL always had the best legatos. I personally used to own a chunk of stuff from them. But, the legatos is what I care the least. It's the TONE what's important.... I remember loving having all those super articulations on the VSL solo strings. But, how, oh god, how difficult it was to change the tone of those strings. I got tired of been most of the time tweaking EQ levels, and never got the sound that I wanted.

The sound in that example is lifeless and flat. And in the previous one also sounds flat. Specially if you compare a relatively dry library like Hollywood brass. It simply sounds good even though is relatively dry.

One thing I've learned, is not to get too hipped by the demos of someone like Andy Blaney. This guy is so good at doing this. He will make a table sound like a violin. I know, that I will never be able to get something of that quality, so, I rather pick something that simply sounds good out of the box. I know I will sound like one of the boxes, but, that's me.


----------



## jbuhler

ism said:


> A pity horn 2 is only in the pro version. All the same, if you don't like the soft attack, it should possible to not use the horn with the soft attack.


I'm looking at this primarily for the extra instruments that are offered only in the pro and what it might offer as an extension of SSB. There's definitely some stuff—more here, I think than SStS had to offer as extensions/supplements to SCS and SSyS. And I continue to think this is a terrific deal. But the need is not especially pressing, and I want the Whitacre Choir a lot more.


----------



## Francis Bourre

Quick question. If I buy the regular version now at 149$, I should pay 250$ to get the Pro version after the intro price is over. Am I right?


----------



## Simon Ravn

Any small user Studio Brass demos? Preferably in a classic orchestral setting with hall sound.

I have gone back and forth and can't really make up my mind. It's very inexpensive, even for the pro version, and some of the stuff I heard I liked.


----------



## djrustycans

One of the things which bothers me is the truncation of release samples in the walkthroughs which somewhat detracts from the realism - this is something which drives me nuts with the Hollywood series. If you hear the short phrase Paul plays with the Bass Trombone Solo in the Pro walkthrough, at 3:03 you need to hear the room tone as the phrase ends but it just stops dead. This is despite the CC1 being somewhere close to 50% as Paul lets go of the key. In isolation, this would be a problem without added reverb. I really want to like this!


----------



## Alex Fraser

Did the Spitifire studio strings ever get a post release update?


----------



## Gerbil

Alex Fraser said:


> Did the Spitifire studio strings ever get a post release update?



Not yet unfortunately. But it is a large library and there's lots to correct so fingers crossed.


----------



## Hanu_H

N.Caffrey said:


> I'll leave it here



Have to say that the brass here doesn't sound good to me. It sounds like there is a lot of problems with the dynamics jumping around and most of the lines sound really disconnected. And if Andy can't get it to sound good, what change I have...

-Hannes


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

After playing with the library some more, I can confirm (atleast in the "core" edition) that yes, the Legato patches do tend to have issues. Not much of the other patches do. Also, it is only _some _of the instruments, at _some _of their dynamic levels, in which the legato patches suffer. Turning up the reverb slider will help considerably_,_ but occasionally there are actually missing samples for the transitions, and it cannot help with that.

I think a solid update would be likely to fix most of the issues, and maybe those missing samples are just a bug and it could fix them as well.


----------



## jamwerks

Hanu_H said:


> Have to say that the brass here doesn't sound good to me. It sounds like there is a lot of problems with the dynamics jumping around and most of the lines sound really disconnected. And if Andy can't get it to sound good, what change I have...
> 
> -Hannes


Apart from the great writing, the library here does sound very good to me. The "jumping" dynamics and "disconnected"ness sound real to me (détaché). The varying dynamics seem to correspond to the lines and character (to my ears).


----------



## Hanu_H

jamwerks said:


> Apart from the great writing, the library here does sound very good to me. The "jumping" dynamics and "disconnected"ness sound real to me (détaché). The varying dynamics seem to correspond to the lines and character (to my ears).


To me it sounds totally unnatural and even synthetic at parts. You can hear it clearly in the louder trumpet parts. Especially the shorts sound really robotic.

-Hannes


----------



## madfloyd

Francis Bourre said:


> Quick question. If I buy the regular version now at 149$, I should pay 250$ to get the Pro version after the intro price is over. Am I right?



Correct. The full price is $400 and you would pay the difference from what you paid now ($150).


----------



## djrustycans

Hanu_H said:


> Have to say that the brass here doesn't sound good to me. It sounds like there is a lot of problems with the dynamics jumping around and most of the lines sound really disconnected. And if Andy can't get it to sound good, what change I have...
> 
> -Hannes


Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. I'm not one for jumping on bandwagons but these were my thoughts also - having had high expectations about Andy's demo.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Karl Feuerstake said:


> After playing with the library some more, I can confirm (atleast in the "core" edition) that yes, the Legato patches do tend to have issues. Not much of the other patches do. Also, it is only _some _of the instruments, at _some _of their dynamic levels, in which the legato patches suffer. Turning up the reverb slider will help considerably_,_ but occasionally there are actually missing samples for the transitions, and it cannot help with that.



I cannot help thinking who the h*ll are programming Spitfires libraries? They always come out with serious issues in the legato patches, mostly related to some intervals being too loud. Also release triggers have ALWAYS been too loud in a lot of their patches. The only workaround is to adjust the RT slider and turn off RT's all together. I realise RT's can't always be perfect regarding volume depending on if you are in the beginning of a sustain sample or later on, where its "blooming" has happened - for that reason, RT's should always rather be too low in volume than too high. They should not only work if you have played longer sustain notes. It really baffles me that Spitfire haven't learned that. Also a lot of inconsistensies in the RTs related to the sustains from note to note is very common.

Seems like it's not composers who do the programming and they really don't test them in an actual musical setting, they just attach the recorded legatos+RTs to the corresponding sustain samples and bang, out the door with it.

They could really improve their stuff a lot by using more time and care on these things.

Compare this to Alex's cinematic studio series and you'll see the difference in attention to detail in the programming (and often the recordings too).

For all the expertise, gear, venues and mucisianship involved, Spitfire could and should end up with better results.


----------



## Ran Zhou

Consona said:


> Thank you. Default mix means what exactly? So the Throne Room example was this default mix, yes?


Sorry about my inaccuracy,it is not the default mix of the library. I change my reverb to preset default.


----------



## Ran Zhou

I strongly suggest that SF should maintain updates continuously for most of their products and keep a release note on bugs/known issues, and what has been fixed in each update...
One of the extensive patches has been reported with issues. They obviously rushed this one out (understandable, but good strategy? maybe not). I feel this year they skipped a lot "beta test", didn't take user feedback/user oriented designation too much into account.


----------



## Alex Fraser

_<Reaches into bag..>_
Alleged bugs aside, I have to say considering the prices are identical...
_<Pulls out smoke grenade..>_
..and that you get so much more content in terms of mics, instruments and articulations..Spifire Studio Brass Pro seems to be much better value for money than the new Cinematic Studio Brass. Just my take.
_<Throws smoke grenade into thread. Ducks behind table. Coughs.>_


----------



## sostenuto

Alex Fraser said:


> _<Reaches into bag..>_
> Alleged bugs aside, I have to say considering the prices are identical...
> _<Pulls out smoke grenade..>_
> ..and that you get so much more content in terms of mics, instruments and articulations..Spifire Studio Brass Pro seems to be much better value for money than the new Cinematic Studio Brass. Just my take.
> _<Throws grenade into thread. Ducks behind table.>_



Have been considering Pro for similar reasons. Likely Pro bugs will be attended to with priority ?? 

Hope you didn't get any fragmentary effects !!


----------



## Alex Fraser

sostenuto said:


> Have been considering Pro for similar reasons. Likely Pro bugs will be attended to with priority ??
> Hope you didn't get any fragmentary effects !!


Nah, I have a gas mask too. 
I don't think anyone can give any time scales re bugs. But Spitfire do have a history of issuing updates. I'd consider the library a long term investment. There's years of use in it, and a good chance it'll see some updates along the line.


----------



## Hanu_H

Alex Fraser said:


> Nah, I have a gas mask too.
> I don't think anyone can give any time scales re bugs. But Spitfire do have a history of issuing updates. I'd consider the library a long term investment. There's years of use in it, and a good chance it'll see some updates along the line.


I have jumped out of that wagon. Been burned too many times with a library that is promised to be updated with features and/or bug fixes that never happened. If I buy a library, I will take it as it is. Not as a library I hope it will someday become. With the change of business model with Spitfire, I would not hold my breath with any extensive updates on the studio series.

-Hannes


----------



## Henu

Not planning to buy either of them right now, but Andy's demo sounds in my honest opinion better than any CSB ones for this style of music. The rather atonal orchestration in this one isn't exactly my cup of tea, but I guess one reason for it has also been to separate the lines more clearly from each other.

*ducks behind the table with @Alex Fraser *


----------



## Hanu_H

Henu said:


> Not planning to buy either of them right now, but Andy's demo sounds in my honest opinion better than any CSB ones for this style of music. The rather atonal orchestration in this one isn't exactly my cup of tea, but I guess one reason for it has also been to separate the lines more clearly from each other.
> 
> *ducks behind the table with @Alex Fraser *


I don't have CSB or SSB either, all I am saying is based on demos and videos. But I have quite a lot of other libraries for brass and don't really feel any temptation towards this. Waiting for the demos for MSB...

-Hannes


----------



## NoamL

Henu said:


> The rather atonal orchestration



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organum


----------



## SpitfireSupport

Alex Fraser said:


> Nah, I have a gas mask too.
> I don't think anyone can give any time scales re bugs. But Spitfire do have a history of issuing updates. I'd consider the library a long term investment. There's years of use in it, and a good chance it'll see some updates along the line.



We are planning an update to Studio Brass soon but with Christmas approaching fast, I can’t guarantee the timescale just yet. I will also say that we won’t prioritise the pro version over the core version in terms of bug fixes.


----------



## Raphioli

Henu said:


> Not planning to buy either of them right now, but Andy's demo sounds in my honest opinion better than any CSB ones for this style of music. The rather atonal orchestration in this one isn't exactly my cup of tea, but I guess one reason for it has also been to separate the lines more clearly from each other.
> 
> *ducks behind the table with @Alex Fraser *



I honestly like both demos.
And like jamwerks mentioned, the "gaps/disconnects" sounded natural to me.(composition wise)

Regarding legato, I do feel its their weak spot for some instruments.
But legato for some instruments do sound very good, like the trumpet.
The legato for the solo trumpet in their Symphonic Brass sounds really nice too.
When I use that patch, I have a habit of always playing the Independence Day theme lol
It doesn't have the upper dynamics but its really perfect for those soft expressive passages.
And from the walkthrough, the legato for the trumpet seems to sound really nice in SStB as well.
But for horns, I didn't like what I was hearing as some of the few people here have also mentioned. (same goes for their symphonic brass)


----------



## ed buller

this really is a steal for $299. 

best

ed


----------



## dcoscina

Hanu_H said:


> Have to say that the brass here doesn't sound good to me. It sounds like there is a lot of problems with the dynamics jumping around and most of the lines sound really disconnected. And if Andy can't get it to sound good, what change I have...
> 
> -Hannes


Sounds pretty convincing to me. 

*says the guy who played trombone for over a decade....


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

The standard version of _Spitfire Studio Brass_ is quite economically priced $149 if purchased by Dec. 27th, and has a small footprint of 17 GB, compared to 230 GB for the Pro version. Any feedback from users would be helpful. i.e. overall satisfaction, quality, playability, dynamics, legato quality, how useful has it been ..etc.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## stonzthro

Andy's demo pushed it over the top - fantastic what that guy can do!


----------



## ed buller

These are the shorts.

Best

e
french horn 1
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-1-stacc-mp3.17230/][/AUDIOPLUS]
french horn 2
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-2-stacc-mp3.17231/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Horns a4
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17232/][/AUDIOPLUS]
Cinebrass 6 horns Stacc
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-cinebrass-6-horns-stacc-mp3.17233/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## paulwr

stonzthro said:


> Andy's demo pushed it over the top - fantastic what that guy can do!


Probably my least favorite demo by him and still great. Really love his work. In these demos, though, I think Homay takes it. This library isn't quite knocking me out and I'm a big fan of Spitfire. I also love AudioBro and will likely wait to hear their offering next year for brass and compare before purchasing.


----------



## Henu

NoamL said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organum



D'oh! I admit being a bit hasty- maybe the term "_not-that-melodic-and-traditional_" orchestration would had been a better term, haha! :D

On the topic, I'm fully aware that Andy Blaney makes probably even Kontakt 2 Factory Library sound good in 2018. I also want to clarify that while I wrote that in _my_ opinion Andy's demo works in this sort of style better than CSB (judging from the demos solely), there are a lot of things in the sound which I also don't like in this library.
For example, the short staccatos are just not cutting it for me and sound way too sloppy and robotic at times. CSB does that thing better, but somehow I find the cohesion between the brass instruments played together a bit more natural-sounding in SStB. But I may stand corrected as I hear more of demos from both libraries.

That being said, my priority of interest is CSB > SStB (pro) > MSB (which ain't out yet and seems to be a bit too overcomplicated for my needs as I already have Samplemodeling brass.). CSB seems to be closest being a clear "upgrade" from Cinebrass- style of sound while SStB sounds more like a drier version of the original SSB.

EDIT: Just head @ed buller 's demos and while I found the shorts of SStB too robotic to my taste, I have to admit that they still made Cinebrass to sound quite...sad in comparison. NOW YOU MADE ME WANT TO BUY NEW BRASS LIBRARIES. >.<


----------



## AdamKmusic

Finally downloaded / installed last night! Loving the sounds you can get with the few patches I messed around with! A few hiccups and some odd sounding legatos etc as already mentioned but I’m sure they’ll be ironed out over a few update! Definitely going to be my staple brass library for the near future!


----------



## jbuhler

Henu said:


> For example, the short staccatos are just not cutting it for me and sound way too sloppy and robotic at times.


I actually really like the sound of shorts in this library. Also "sloppy and robotic"? You have a different idea of robots.


----------



## Henu

The marcatos in some earlier Raiders theme were somehow very sloppy- sounding to my ears and the demos Ed posted with the staccatos have this a bit too repetitive sound for me. I don't know how much it's about velocities on those, but I would had loved a bit more "humanization" on the repetitions. But as said, I'm only based my opinions on the demos I've heard.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Point is (well for me of course) that real brass (and other instrument sections) has no fixed unified lengths , there are all kinds of shorts..and so when reproducing things like the raiders march, imperial march.. or whatever else you are trying to mockup you have to re-create those unique performances and note lengths which means you can´t just use a short articulation for short notes and marcato for the longer ones. Even if lets say in a "sterile" world a player or ensemble would perform it like that, still he would not be that super tight in-tune all the time. And pitch fluctuation and imperfect timbre and tuning is one very typical thing why we all like real brass performances. And samples are imo often to clean and with too perfect pitch recorded so that when you recreate those lines it becomes very easily obvious that there is something "fake". However Spitfire Studio brass is no bad library, it is just not imo meant to make those things sound real. I mean, what library is like that anways..you have really to programm the shit out of the things when getting at least a little "impression" of the real thing. And there comes the idiotic thing why so: Don´t waste your time like me with all those experiments!


----------



## jbuhler

Henu said:


> The marcatos in some earlier Raiders theme were somehow very sloppy- sounding to my ears and the demos Ed posted with the staccatos have this a bit too repetitive sound for me. I don't know how much it's about velocities on those, but I would had loved a bit more "humanization" on the repetitions. But as said, I'm only based my opinions on the demos I've heard.


Yes, taste is what it is. I certainly don't dispute your sense of what you are hearing or your feelings toward it. I did like your description, which I found amusing. Like drunken robots. Makes them seem almost human...


----------



## ed buller

Henu said:


> The marcatos in some earlier Raiders theme were somehow very sloppy- sounding to my ears and the demos Ed posted with the staccatos have this a bit too repetitive sound for me. I don't know how much it's about velocities on those, but I would had loved a bit more "humanization" on the repetitions. But as said, I'm only based my opinions on the demos I've heard.



the velocities are all maxed out. Most shorts seem to have 4 layers in this library. I think solo horn 2 sounds crap but the others sound good to my ears as this IS a very repetitive passage in the score at ff. There are double layer RR's too. so 4x2 basically. In my opinion the horns a4 sound the best. Less messy than the cinebrass ( which is still sounding good 8 years later !!! ) tighter and much better timing.


best

ed


----------



## Hanu_H

ed buller said:


> the velocities are all maxed out. Most shorts seem to have 4 layers in this library. I think solo horn 2 sounds crap but the others sound good to my ears as this IS a very repetitive passage in the score at ff. There are double layer RR's too. so 4x2 basically. In my opinion the horns a4 sound the best. Less messy than the cinebrass ( which is still sounding good 8 years later !!! ) tighter and much better timing.
> 
> 
> best
> 
> ed


I think the horns are the worst part of the CineBrass. They do sound messy in faster things.

-Hannes


----------



## ed buller

Hanu_H said:


> I think the horns are the worst part of the CineBrass. They do sound messy in faster things.
> 
> -Hannes



Yeah the timing sucks...drives me crazy !!!

best

e


----------



## Henu

ed buller said:


> the velocities are all maxed out.



Well that explains a lot! And yep, agree with @Hanu_H also about the faster things in Cinebrass. 

(And to be honest, in almost every brass library albeit from SM and couple of others. But you know, load up the good old Adventure patch from EWQLSO and prepare to be amazed. :D )


----------



## ed buller

Henu said:


> Well that explains a lot! And yep, agree with @Hanu_H also about the faster things in Cinebrass.
> 
> (And to be honest, in almost every brass library albeit from SM and couple of others. But you know, load up the good old Adventure patch from EWQLSO and prepare to be amazed. :D )



Yes that's still an amazingly good library . Such a shame they don't sell the kontakt Version but I still use mine !

best

ed


----------



## Consona

ed buller said:


> These are the shorts.
> 
> Best
> 
> e
> french horn 1
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-1-stacc-mp3.17230/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> french horn 2
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-2-stacc-mp3.17231/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> Horns a4
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17232/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> Cinebrass 6 horns Stacc
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-cinebrass-6-horns-stacc-mp3.17233/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-1-stacc-mp3.17230/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-2-stacc-mp3.17231/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17232/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-cinebrass-6-horns-stacc-mp3.17233/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Funny thing is, CB sounds way more messy, but due to that it feels way more like a real brass section is playing. SStB sounds so quantized.


----------



## Consona

Listen to this:



It's a real orchestra recording and the performance sounds a lot like a messy CineBrass rather than precise SStB.

Feel free to mock-up the brass intro with SStB, would be really interesting to hear how it sounds:
http://moviethemes.net/music/Star_Wars/EP4__The_Throne_Room_and_End_Title.mid


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> Yes, taste is what it is. I certainly don't dispute your sense of what you are hearing or your feelings toward it. I did like your description, which I found amusing. Like drunken robots. Makes them seem almost human...



Do you share reactions of some other posts about strong value of 'Core' version? Despite notable content in Pro version, personal Brass needs right now would seem to be covered by Core.

Even so, really prefer to have solid expectations before adding either.

THX and regards


----------



## bryanmckay

Consona said:


> Funny thing is, CB sounds way more messy, but due to that it feels way more like a real brass section is playing. SStB sounds so quantized.



Assuming those examples were all from the same MIDI and not played in separately, you can hear some notes falling off the beat in a very off-kilter way in the Cinebrass example that doesn't sound anything like John Williams' real orchestra you posted. The horns a4 patch in SStB does have some looseness between the individual players so they aren't in robotic lockstep, but the notes still hit the right beats, which is what one generally wants when programming MIDI, and you then have the freedom to humanize the performance as you see fit if you want it a bit looser. In the Cinebrass example, there are several repetitions that are very clearly not on beat. Listen to the actual score from North by Northwest and you should be able to hear why the Cinebrass example above sounds so sloppy. (EDIT: Whoops, I posted the wrong recording, but it still works as an example, and the correct version was shared below.)


----------



## clisma

ed buller said:


> These are the shorts.
> 
> Best
> 
> e
> french horn 1
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-1-stacc-mp3.17230/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> french horn 2
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-2-stacc-mp3.17231/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> Horns a4
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17232/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> Cinebrass 6 horns Stacc
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-cinebrass-6-horns-stacc-mp3.17233/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-1-stacc-mp3.17230/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-2-stacc-mp3.17231/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17232/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-cinebrass-6-horns-stacc-mp3.17233/][/AUDIOPLUS]



For context:


Edit: crossed posts.


----------



## ed buller

it's funny how different the re-recording is isn't it ?. It's obviously fun to have a high quality recording but the original performance of so much of Bernard Herrmann's scores is way better I think. He really knew how to get the best from his orchestras .

The Spitfire Horns IMHO sound way better Than the Cinebrass in terms of tightness. This really is a Fabulous library. Yes it's not nearly as good as the real thing but for the money it's just a steal ! The Cinebrass just suffers from sloppiness. Perhaps in the editing of the start of the notes ...who knows!...the sound is good though...perhaps closer to the North By Northwest re-recording ?

i played it too fast though !


best


ed


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Do you share reactions of some other posts about strong value of 'Core' version? Despite notable content in Pro version, personal Brass needs right now would seem to be covered by Core.
> 
> Even so, really prefer to have solid expectations before adding either.
> 
> THX and regards


I think the SStB core is a great deal, even at regular prices. It generally sounds good to me. It has a lot of content for the price. It has what looks to be an easy upgrade path to the pro version. If I was just buying a core brass, I might look more closely at CSB in terms of tone and general playability and weigh the trade offs in terms of cost, tone, microphones, playability, etc. That library sounds really good to me as well. But then so did Forzo and several of the other brass libraries that have been offered over the past few years. Really I think any of these would be a solid library for making music if its tone and capabilities lined up with your aesthetic sensibilities.


----------



## Hanu_H

clisma said:


> For context:
> 
> 
> Edit: crossed posts.



When listening the original, I think with a slower tempo CineBrass could sound pretty close to the original actually...

-Hannes


----------



## ed buller

Hanu_H said:


> When listening the original, I think with a slower tempo CineBrass could sound pretty close to the original actually...
> 
> -Hannes


just out of time !

e


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

ed buller said:


> These are the shorts.
> 
> Best
> 
> e
> french horn 1
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-1-stacc-mp3.17230/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> french horn 2
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-2-stacc-mp3.17231/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> Horns a4
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17232/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> Cinebrass 6 horns Stacc
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-cinebrass-6-horns-stacc-mp3.17233/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-1-stacc-mp3.17230/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-french-horn-2-stacc-mp3.17231/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17232/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-cinebrass-6-horns-stacc-mp3.17233/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Wow those shorts from Spitfire studio brass sound really strange, the a4 horns are like some kind of string synth hybrid. The Cinebrass ones actually sound more realistic which is surprising.


----------



## ed buller

Soprano_Sundays said:


> Wow those shorts from Spitfire studio brass sound really strange, the a4 horns are like some kind of string synth hybrid. The Cinebrass ones actually sound more realistic which is surprising.


Huh ?

e


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

ed buller said:


> Huh ?
> 
> e



Like I said they don't sound like brass instruments which is surprising.


----------



## germancomponist

Soprano_Sundays said:


> Like I said they don't sound like brass instruments which is surprising.


Do u listen to ED's examples via your cell phone?


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

germancomponist said:


> Do u listen to ED's examples via your cell phone?



No DT 880 - maybe I'm being too harsh but sounds like a keyboard patch.


----------



## germancomponist

Soprano_Sundays said:


> No DT 880 - maybe I'm being too harsh but sounds like a keyboard patch.


Hm ..., to my ears, it sounds good ... .


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

germancomponist said:


> Hm ..., to my ears, it sounds good ... .



The a4 horns?


----------



## ed buller

these babies sound like a synth ?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17262/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

ed buller said:


> these babies sound like a synth ?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17262/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Yeah, they really don't sound good to me. The Cinebrass are not perfect but sound more realistic as brass instruments.

What articulation is this?


----------



## ed buller

Soprano_Sundays said:


> Yeah, they really don't sound good to me. The Cinebrass are not perfect but sound more realistic as brass instruments.
> 
> What articulation is this?



It's Stacc. Wow i'm surprised. I have a lot of Brass Libraries and this is my fav stacc by far. Nice and tight and punchy as hell..

best

ed


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

ed buller said:


> It's Stacc. Wow i'm surprised. I have a lot of Brass Libraries and this is my fav stacc by far. Nice and tight and punchy as hell..
> 
> best
> 
> ed



Yeah its just taste. I bought CSB recently and wasn't completely convinced but was really impressed with CSSS. Unfortunately, none of the demos of spitfire studio brass have convinced me, I'm probably hoping for too much as I'm only interested in realism. Going to wait and see what Modern Scoring Brass is like.


----------



## Living Fossil

ed buller said:


> It's Stacc. Wow i'm surprised.



I wouldn't care to much about a single opinion...

Personally, i'm still sceptical about getting SStB because of the alleged inconsistencies.
(i'm permanently annoyed by some flaws of the SF-symphonic strings and the missing round robins in HZPercPro and would like to buy libraries that just work as intended....)


----------



## ed buller

I feel your pain. Pretty much every library I have bought has an issue. This is no exception but so far they are manageable and in no way detract from the the basic $299 value of the purchase. Lord knows I've spent much more than that and been burned. 

best

e


----------



## Casiquire

ed buller said:


> these babies sound like a synth ?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17262/][/AUDIOPLUS]



I think so too.


----------



## Loïc D

ed buller said:


> these babies sound like a synth ?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17262/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Not like a synth but very repetitive, yes.
As exposed in Paul’s walkthrough, I think SStB requires a lot of CC/velocity automation to make them sound more lively, specially in exposed passages.

I guess that in your example you copy-pasted the pattern.

I’m tempted by this library (price, instruments, dynamic range, mics) but so far, I’m waiting for SF wishlist to know which fence I’m on.


----------



## Hanu_H

ed buller said:


> these babies sound like a synth ?
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/airport-north-by-northwest-bernard-herrmann-short-a4-horns-stacc-mp3.17262/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I also hear the synthiness in all the demos, not just in this example.

-Hannes


----------



## germancomponist

Ed, It seems the sample start points are too well chosen here and you have to make the chords a bit unclean in the timing, so that this library sounds "more human"?


----------



## ed buller

germancomponist said:


> Ed, It seems the sample start points are too well chosen here and you have to make the chords a bit unclean in the timing, so that this library sounds "more human"?



It wasn't an attempt at realism . Indeed quite the reverse. I wanted to give it the most brutal example I could. Max out the velocities and see how they fared. I was surprised at how well the samples stood up to such abuse to be honest !

best

ed


----------



## Consona

bryanmckay said:


> Assuming those examples were all from the same MIDI and not played in separately, you can hear some notes falling off the beat in a very off-kilter way in the Cinebrass example that doesn't sound anything like John Williams' real orchestra you posted. The horns a4 patch in SStB does have some looseness between the individual players so they aren't in robotic lockstep, but the notes still hit the right beats, which is what one generally wants when programming MIDI, and you then have the freedom to humanize the performance as you see fit if you want it a bit looser. In the Cinebrass example, there are several repetitions that are very clearly not on beat. Listen to the actual score from North by Northwest and you should be able to hear why the Cinebrass example above sounds so sloppy. (EDIT: Whoops, I posted the wrong recording, but it still works as an example, and the correct version was shared below.)



Mock-up the Throne Room with SStB, I'll do it with Cinebrass, let's see how those demos compare against each other and the real thing. I think that could be really interesting.

http://moviethemes.net/music/Star_Wars/EP4__The_Throne_Room_and_End_Title.mid



Soprano_Sundays said:


> Yeah, they really don't sound good to me. The Cinebrass are not perfect but sound more realistic as brass instruments.
> 
> What articulation is this?


Agreed. It sounds like a keyboard patch. It's just too tight. But I'd like to hear an attempt to make it sound more lively. With CC automations, time stretch, etc., to see how stiff or not the library really is.


----------



## Consona

Btw, I've never noticed how incredibly short are those staccatissimo notes at the beginning of the Throne Room before trying to mock-up it. It's interesting how this process makes you listen to music in a totally new way.


----------



## jbuhler

Paul goes through "Ravine Chase," his demo for Studio Brass, which contains a preview of Studio Woodwinds:


----------



## jbuhler

This was interesting (from Paul's video noted in comments to video).


----------



## CT

So that teased library from a few weeks ago is Ambient Guitars, after all! Interesting.


----------



## trotamusicos

Great British Brass ?


----------



## jbuhler

Paul in YouTube comment section: "Whoops! The British brass woods etc are the old bespoke libraries. Nice spot!"


----------



## D Halgren

jbuhler said:


> Pau in YouTube comment section: "Whoops! The British brass woods etc are the old bespoke libraries. Nice spot!"


The ambient guitars is definitely the library that Christian has been blurring in his videos. It looks like the trees from the Leo libraries. I thought they were going to put it out when he was the guest for black Friday. Maybe that was the original plan.


----------



## gussunkri

Paul seems like such a nice and kind person. I love that track of his. His best demo so far?


----------



## sostenuto

gussunkri said:


> Paul seems like such a nice and kind person. I love that track of his. His best demo so far?



Well ……. he gets excited quite often, but this will hopefully subside …


----------



## SpitfireSupport

Hi all, an update to Spitfire Studio Brass will be rolling out in the next couple of hours.


----------



## AdamKmusic

SpitfireSupport said:


> Hi all, an update to Spitfire Studio Brass will be rolling out in the next couple of hours.



Do you have a list of the fixes/changes?


----------



## SpitfireSupport

AdamKmusic said:


> Do you have a list of the fixes/changes?



There were a couple of Horn Solo 2 patches that were not sounding and a bunch of NKS tagging issues that we sorted. We also added the documentation folder with the manual and "what's new"


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

SpitfireSupport said:


> Hi all, an update to Spitfire Studio Brass will be rolling out in the next couple of hours.



added to Wish List.


----------



## germancomponist

ed buller said:


> It wasn't an attempt at realism . Indeed quite the reverse. I wanted to give it the most brutal example I could. Max out the velocities and see how they fared. I was surprised at how well the samples stood up to such abuse to be honest !
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Ed, my post was a little (as mostly) ironic statement. I don't get it what people are criticizing. In one thread, they criticize the sample start points, in another one, they critisize a too much well done sample start points editing, because suddenly it sounds like a synth .... . You know what I mean ... . 
Best
Gunther


----------



## sostenuto

Duuuh …. any reason to hold on Studio Brass _Core_ _ 'now' _ despite Wishlist shortly ? 
Even if Pro is great deal … would only pay difference _ right ?


----------



## Michel Simons

Zoot_Rollo said:


> added to Wish List.



I seem to remember reading that the Studio Brass won't be eligible for the wish list discounts.


----------



## jbuhler

sostenuto said:


> Duuuh …. any reason to hold on Studio Brass _Core_ _ 'now' _ despite Wishlist shortly ?
> Even if Pro is great deal … would only pay difference _ right ?


It's not clear to me whether you pay the difference at the time you buy pro or the difference in price at the time you buy pro from what you paid for the regular version. The wording to me suggests the former, but it was ambiguous enough that I am not certain. But I would get a clarification from Spitfire support before buying. Also CH explicitly said that the Studio Brass and Studio Brass Pro would not be part of the Wishlist.


----------



## sostenuto

jbuhler said:


> It's not clear to me whether you pay the difference at the time you buy pro or the difference in price at the time you buy pro from what you paid for the regular version. The wording to me suggests the former, but it was ambiguous enough that I am not certain. But I would get a clarification from Spitfire support before buying. Also CH explicitly said that the Studio Brass and Studio Brass Pro would not be part of the Wishlist.



Double Duuuh ! Yep .. recall that now. Makes sense to cool it for now as lots on Wishlist.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

seriously considering the Studio Series.

Per CH's vid, 

StBPro today, StSPro on WL, StWWPro 2019.

fun times.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

bought Brass Pro.

may have to run the download at the office.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

ok, a little time with Brass Pro.

layered with VSL and HWB, holy sh!t!

very VERY nice!

my Brass is done!

Thank you Spitfire!


----------



## Consona

Zoot_Rollo said:


> ok, a little time with Brass Pro.
> 
> layered with VSL and HWB, holy sh!t!
> 
> very VERY nice!
> 
> my Brass is done!
> 
> Thank you Spitfire!


We need your Raiders and Star Wars SStB only demos, good man Zoot.


----------



## Architekton

Yes, Raiders and SW quickly show the quality of the library...


----------



## Erik

Hi,
Herewith a few examples I made with different brass products, based on the Airport theme from Herrmann's North by Northwest. Made with 8DIO Century Brass (x4) - Orchestral Tools Brass - Spitfire Symphonic Brass (x4) - VSL Triple horn (x4) and VSL Dimension Brass Synchronized.

I also added a version from the movie: Streets with the same notes , but this time very fast and very soft (pp indicated).

And sorry.....I don't have SSB on my HD yet, so no example of this library.
PM me for a midi-file if you want!

I hope you'll enjoy the offered overview

8DIO
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw8dio-mp3.17430/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Orchestral Tools Brass
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw_ot-mp3.17431/][/AUDIOPLUS]

Spitfire Symphonic Brass
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw_ssb-mp3.17432/][/AUDIOPLUS]

VSL Triple horn (x4)
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnwvsl_triplehorn-mp3.17433/][/AUDIOPLUS]

VSL Dimension Brass Synchronized
[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnwvsldb_synchr-mp3.17435/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## jbuhler

Erik said:


> Hi,
> Herewith a few examples I made with different brass products, based on the Airport theme from Herrmann's North by Northwest. Made with 8DIO Century Brass (x4) - Orchestral Tools Brass - Spitfire Symphonic Brass (x4) - VSL Triple horn (x4) and VSL Dimension Brass Synchronized.


Did you adjust the midi on these to get the best performance from each library or reuse the same midi?


----------



## Erik

I did quite some customization of course, but within certain time limits. If there are possible _missing _points, let me know.


----------



## Architekton

Berlin and 8dio sound best, all other...def not...


----------



## PeterKorcek

I am no brass player, but just to my ears Berlin > 8Dio > Spitfire


----------



## jbuhler

Erik said:


> I did quite some customization of course, but within certain time limits. If there are possible _missing _points, let me know.


Thanks for responding. I just wasn't certain what I was evaluating...


----------



## Consona

@Erik Thx!

BB and 8dio do sound the best. The low dynamics BB shorts sound great. SStB definitely needs the time machine stretching here. Erik, would you to make a demo using time machine patches?


And now we need a CSB demo of that.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Consona said:


> @Erik Thx!
> 
> BB and 8dio do sound the best. The low dynamics BB shorts sound great. SStB definitely needs the time machine stretching here. Erik, would you to make a demo using time machine patches?
> 
> 
> And now we need a CSB demo of that.



That wasn't Studio Brass - it was Symphonic.

A demo Spitfire Studio Brass Pro would be nice - i asked for the MIDI.


----------



## djrustycans

Zoot_Rollo said:


> And a demo of Spitfire Studio Brass Pro.


Yes! That’s the whole point of this!!


----------



## Consona

I don't think more mics will improve the playability.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

djrustycans said:


> Yes! That’s the whole point of this!!



um, yes, but the Erik used Spitfire SYMPHONIC BRASS, not Studio Brass.

the point of my reply.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Consona said:


> I don't think more mics will improve the playability.



it's not just the mics.


----------



## Consona

Zoot_Rollo said:


> um, yes, but the Erik used Spitfire SYMPHONIC BRASS, not Studio Brass.
> 
> the point of my reply.


Oh, didn't notice, you are right. So yea, we need SStB. edit


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Consona said:


> Oh, didn't notice, you are right. So yea, we need SStB. Why was the demo even put into this thread then?



easy oversight.

i PM'd him asking for the MIDI files, since i just bought Studio Brass Pro.


----------



## jbuhler

Zoot_Rollo said:


> That wasn't Studio Brass - it was Symphonic.
> 
> A demo Spitfire Studio Brass Pro would be nice - i asked for the MIDI.


That didn't even sound to me like what I'd get out of the Symphonic Brass for that passage so I also asked for the MIDI.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

jbuhler said:


> That didn't even sound to me like what I'd get out of the Symphonic Brass for that passage so I also asked for the MIDI.



the VSL sounds a little off too.

would like to try with HWBD as well.


----------



## Erik

Consona said:


> @Erik Thx!
> BB and 8dio do sound the best. The low dynamics BB shorts sound great. SStB definitely needs the time machine stretching here. Erik, would you to make a demo using time machine patches?
> .....



Here we go.........SSB TM patch, more punchy

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw-ssb-tm-mp3.17460/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## MA-Simon

Erik said:


> Here we go.........SSB TM patch, more punchy


I love that you are doing demos, but I just don't get any information out of them. ):
Maybe if you demoed all shorts and such.


----------



## clisma

Erik said:


> Here we go.........SSB TM patch, more punchy
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw-ssb-tm-mp3.17460/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Much better, sounding more natural. These TM patches do make a difference. Do we have the same passage with CSB?


----------



## Consona

Erik said:


> Here we go.........SSB TM patch, more punchy
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw-ssb-tm-mp3.17460/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Thank you, but I must say, Berlin Brass sound fantastic playing this. Do you have the Exp A, I don't have enough money for the main library, but maybe I could buy the expansion if it's as playable as the main library.


edit: Lol, I just did the calculation, Exp A would cost me the same money as CSB...


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

Erik said:


> Here we go.........SSB TM patch, more punchy
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw-ssb-tm-mp3.17460/][/AUDIOPLUS]



This is sounding very nice. Would be good to hear some other user demos of SStB if anyone has the time?


----------



## damcry

Still not decided if I get the pro. Today’s last day for intro price (dont see this info anymore on the site) ??


----------



## Consona

damcry said:


> Still not decided if I get the pro. Today’s last day for intro price (dont see this info anymore on the site) ??


Since there are not many user demos, I'll wait for some another wishlist before I buy this lib, if ever, of course.


----------



## Geoff Grace

Consona said:


> Since there are not many user demos, I'll wait for some another wishlist before I buy this lib, if ever, of course.


Speaking of which, Spitfire had a Spring Wish List Sale back in May (10-16); so—if history repeats—it seems likely we'll see an SStB price this good again in about five months.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Consona

Exactly.


----------



## djrustycans

Had a quick play with the library and it sounds fantastic generally but I’ve literally only scratched the surface. There’s a definite problem with Horn 1 and Horns a4 legato. It must be a bug because they’re not even able to play fluid legato lines. It’s almost like the notes sound detached when playing phrases. Haven’t tried all of the other instruments but the other legato patches sounded fine and the trumpets are excellent. Will try and find out more in the next day - it’s a huge library!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

djrustycans said:


> Had a quick play with the library and it sounds fantastic generally but I’ve literally only scratched the surface. There’s a definite problem with Horn 1 and Horns a4 legato. It must be a bug because they’re not even able to play fluid legato lines. It’s almost like the notes sound detached when playing phrases. Haven’t tried all of the other instruments but the other legato patches sounded fine and the trumpets are excellent. Will try and find out more in the next day - it’s a huge library!



took a bit to get my footing with this one - similar issues.

but i really like it.


----------



## Consona

Anybody doing a CSB version of the Herrmann piece?


----------



## jbuhler

Consona said:


> Anybody doing a CSB version of the Herrmann piece?


I hope so!


----------



## Soprano_Sundays

Also SStB? I thought the example above was SStB but just realised its the Time machine patch from Spitfire Symphonic Brass.


----------



## djrustycans

Haven’t had enough time with this yet, there’s lots to explore but on a basic level, the legato transitions on Horns and other instruments seems completely broken. I compared the Horns a4 with HBD and there’s no comparison in terms of fluidity. I can’t imagine this is how Spitfire intended it to be - forget lyrical melodies, it just sounds completely disjointed. The Trumpets a2 and Trumpet 1 sounded beautiful on first listen - with nice legato transitions. I cross my fingers that they can sort these issues with an update..


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

djrustycans said:


> Haven’t had enough time with this yet, there’s lots to explore but on a basic level, the legato transitions on Horns and other instruments seems completely broken. I compared the Horns a4 with HBD and there’s no comparison in terms of fluidity. I can’t imagine this is how Spitfire intended it to be - forget lyrical melodies, it just sounds completely disjointed. The Trumpets a2 and Trumpet 1 sounded beautiful on first listen - with nice legato transitions. I cross my fingers that they can sort these issues with an update..




HWBD is lovely, ain't it?

Too bad it's so old.


----------



## Alex Fraser

djrustycans said:


> Haven’t had enough time with this yet, there’s lots to explore but on a basic level, the legato transitions on Horns and other instruments seems completely broken. I compared the Horns a4 with HBD and there’s no comparison in terms of fluidity. I can’t imagine this is how Spitfire intended it to be - forget lyrical melodies, it just sounds completely disjointed. The Trumpets a2 and Trumpet 1 sounded beautiful on first listen - with nice legato transitions. I cross my fingers that they can sort these issues with an update..


I understand that an update was on the way/already posted. Is this still an issue with the latest version? Thanks - A


----------



## AdamKmusic

Here's something just messing around with SStB & SStS - a tiny bit of EQ & revern on the brass just to give it an extra bite & room.

Strings - Spitfire Studio Strings
Brass - Spitfite Studio Brass Pro
Percussion - Hans Zimmer Percussion
Synths - ZebraHZ / Project Bravo


----------



## djrustycans

Alex Fraser said:


> I understand that an update was on the way/already posted. Is this still an issue with the latest version? Thanks - A


Not sure... I have revision 1.0.0b28 - there are no updates in the Spitfire App. The is so much to like about this library - the Horns a4 ‘longs’ sound great with good dynamics but the legato patch is nowhere near as good sounding generally in addition to the slur issue.
The recording space sounds great and is what I’d describe as clean.


----------



## djrustycans

AdamKmusic said:


> Here's something just messing around with SStB & SStS - a tiny bit of EQ & revern on the brass just to give it an extra bite & room.
> 
> Strings - Spitfire Studio Strings
> Brass - Stpitfire Studio Brass
> Percussion - Hans Zimmer Percussion
> Synths - ZebraHZ / Project Bravo



Sounds great Adam (on an iPhone!).


----------



## Scamper

Erik said:


> Herewith a few examples I made with different brass products, based on the Airport theme from Herrmann's North by Northwest. Made with 8DIO Century Brass (x4) - Orchestral Tools Brass - Spitfire Symphonic Brass (x4) - VSL Triple horn (x4) and VSL Dimension Brass Synchronized.
> ...



With your MIDI, I made the CSB version of the Herrmann North by Northwest theme now.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-herrmannnbnw-mp3.17516/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Erik

Thanks for doing this.
This sounds very brassy (in the classical, non epical way I mean) and well defined, for me as non brass player this is one of the best so far. The SSB in the TM version comes close.


----------



## Consona

@Scamper Thx. So far Berlin sounds the best IMO.


----------



## jbuhler

Consona said:


> @Scamper Thx. So far Berlin sounds the best IMO.


I think this one works reasonably well.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnxnwairport2-2-mp3.17504/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Benjamin Duk

So I've purchased the Base Library of SStb. One question I have is that the volume levels of the Longs seem to be much louder than the Legato patch using the same midi file, or the Legato is much softer. I'm using the Horns a4 and just using the Tree Mic. So I'm doing volume balancing and if I put the midi Volume up full to 127 (CC1 Dynamic Full) the Legato patch is about 10db softer than the long patch.

Is this how it should be? Doesn't make sense to me because they should be using the same files that the longs are using but with legato transitions in between for Legato.


----------



## kevthurman

Scamper said:


> With your MIDI, I made the CSB version of the Herrmann North by Northwest theme now.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/csb-herrmannnbnw-mp3.17516/][/AUDIOPLUS]


For the second example did you use repeated notes?


----------



## Scamper

kevthurman said:


> For the second example did you use repeated notes?



Yes, it seemed best suited for the tempo. Except for the last note, which is staccatissimo to avoid the cutoff, that the repetitions have. So, there's a noticeable difference in character.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

I bought Studio Brass Core and until now I am very happy. But pity that the legatos are on the lower side of the dynamics. The sustains go way up to these "lip bleeding" fortissimos.

How do you cope with this? I'm asking, because in other libraries (HWB, CSB etc.) the legato patches go up to forte/fortissimo. I don't know about brass playing, so what's the matter? Are loud legatos not possible or not real?


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I bought Studio Brass Core and until now I am very happy. But pity that the legatos are on the lower side of the dynamics. The sustains go way up to these "lip bleeding" fortissimos.
> 
> How do you cope with this? I'm asking, because in other libraries (HWB, CSB etc.) the legato patches go up to forte/fortissimo. I don't know about brass playing, so what's the matter? Are loud legatos not possible or not real?



It takes too much air at extreme levels so you have to breathe between notes... especially really low stuff. So legato isn't really "practical" under such circumstances.

Your lungs might last 1.5-2 seconds at "blastissimo"


----------



## vewilya

djrustycans said:


> Haven’t had enough time with this yet, there’s lots to explore but on a basic level, the legato transitions on Horns and other instruments seems completely broken. I compared the Horns a4 with HBD and there’s no comparison in terms of fluidity. I can’t imagine this is how Spitfire intended it to be - forget lyrical melodies, it just sounds completely disjointed. The Trumpets a2 and Trumpet 1 sounded beautiful on first listen - with nice legato transitions. I cross my fingers that they can sort these issues with an update..


I didn't quite believe it when I read your post... But now that I am hearing and felling it myself! A bit strange this Horns a4 legato patch I must say... You're absolutely right with the disjointed legato! A lot of lovely stuff in this library though. Don't wanna sound too negative! I also do love the SF Studio Strings!


----------



## AdamKmusic

Yeah Horns a4 legato just doesn’t work except on slow melodies!


----------



## vewilya

AdamKmusic said:


> Yeah Horns a4 legato just doesn’t work except on slow melodies!


Yeah. It's odd though since lots of these legato patches do work properly. I will contact SF support about this issue. I mean EW and VSL can sometimes be on the extreme side of legato transitions but with this patch it feels laggy as if the transitions should be there but aren't...


----------



## djrustycans

vewilya said:


> I didn't quite believe it when I read your post... But now that I am hearing and felling it myself! A bit strange this Horns a4 legato patch I must say... You're absolutely right with the disjointed legato! A lot of lovely stuff in this library though. Don't wanna sound too negative! I also do love the SF Studio Strings!



Still struggling with this.. I emailed support immediately (28th Dec) but have had no response as of yet. The strange legato makes it difficult to play genuine music with these samples. I had a go at mocking up ‘Hymn to the fallen’ but the lack of slurred legato and no legato repetitions (round robins) means that it’s very difficult to get convincing results. In the end I had to bring in Hollywood Brass to help with fluidity. If all you use is long notes and staccato, then fine! I too, don’t want to appear overly negative but I think these are fundamental flaws which need addressing. Especially as this product (in my case) holds the ‘Professional’ tag. I do feel disappointment with regards to a few areas of this library but I also feel in a way I knew what I was walking into judging by the demos. Maybe I’m expecting too much...


----------



## djrustycans

Just a heads up FYI, had this email back from Spitfire support:

“Thanks for your message and feedback. We are very much aware that the legato could use a bit of tweaking on some specific patches, and will absolutely be looking to make some changes to this in the future. Unfortunately I cannot give you a time frame for an update, however I hope the knowledge that we're aware and looking to update will help!”

Good to know this is in the works - thanks Spitfire!


----------



## vewilya

djrustycans said:


> Just a heads up FYI, had this email back from Spitfire support:
> 
> “Thanks for your message and feedback. We are very much aware that the legato could use a bit of tweaking on some specific patches, and will absolutely be looking to make some changes to this in the future. Unfortunately I cannot give you a time frame for an update, however I hope the knowledge that we're aware and looking to update will help!”
> 
> Good to know this is in the works - thanks Spitfire!


Jolly good!


----------



## Hanu_H

Karl Feuerstake said:


> It takes too much air at extreme levels so you have to breathe between notes... especially really low stuff. So legato isn't really "practical" under such circumstances.
> 
> Your lungs might last 1.5-2 seconds at "blastissimo"


So all the developers that record the legato in louder dynamics got it all wrong? You don't have to use it on every note, but it sure is useful to have. Biggest problem I am having with this library is that the legato sounds like it was only recorded at single dynamic and that is not realistic at all.

-Hannes


----------



## Henu

Yep, criticizing loud legato passages being sampled for a library is the equivalent of saying that "you should never sample loud rimshots for drum libraries because they cannot be played all the time".

With great power comes great responsibility.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

Hanu_H said:


> So all the developers that record the legato in louder dynamics got it all wrong? You don't have to use it on every note, but it sure is useful to have. Biggest problem I am having with this library is that the legato sounds like it was only recorded at single dynamic and that is not realistic at all.
> 
> -Hannes



they record it between two notes in under 2 seconds, then repeat, and allow you to play whatever you want to your hearts content.


----------



## Hanu_H

Karl Feuerstake said:


> they record it between two notes in under 2 seconds, then repeat, and allow you to play whatever you want to your hearts content.


And the problem is? I think it's a lot bigger problem to not have that option.

-Hannes


----------



## Lcas

I have core and pro sitting in my wishlist, so many options out there but for $120/240 I don't think I can resist.

Need a workhorse brass library. Really want ability for low dynamics melodic writing. Loud stuff great and needed as well, but I can live without for now.

I like the sound of the strings in this room but the brass sounds thin. Not opposed to grabbing pro but need to squeeze as much as I can out of my budget considering I'm a beginner and I really like Bernard Hermann toolkit at $300.

Anyways, since core is tree mic only, would you throw reverb(s) onto the tree mic, to make it sound bigger, or would that be a bad idea? I am guessing that is close mic only stuff but obviously have no experience with this.

I feel like I would sit here regretting not getting pro, until Christmas, but if anyone here can shed some light on using reverb on the tree mic I might just get core


----------



## re-peat

Lcas, I can make you an audio example of some of the SStB instruments with added reverb, if you like. 
What kind of reverb would you like to hear? Big-ish, big or very big?
(And which reverb do you plan on using? Maybe I have it too.)

_


----------



## jezjez

I think I misunderstood the studio series, I thought dryness was one of the main draws but looks like only the pro version has the dry samples, the tree in the core version seems quite wet.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Lcas said:


> I have core and pro sitting in my wishlist, so many options out there but for $120/240 I don't think I can resist.
> 
> Need a workhorse brass library. Really want ability for low dynamics melodic writing. Loud stuff great and needed as well, but I can live without for now.
> 
> I like the sound of the strings in this room but the brass sounds thin. Not opposed to grabbing pro but need to squeeze as much as I can out of my budget considering I'm a beginner and I really like Bernard Hermann toolkit at $300.
> 
> Anyways, since core is tree mic only, would you throw reverb(s) onto the tree mic, to make it sound bigger, or would that be a bad idea? I am guessing that is close mic only stuff but obviously have no experience with this.
> 
> I feel like I would sit here regretting not getting pro, until Christmas, but if anyone here can shed some light on using reverb on the tree mic I might just get core



Why couldn’t you add reverb? There are no rules. In one of the videos, Christian even throws a reverb AND delay on a horn section....it sounds awesome! I bought the Studio Core version, the price is incredible.


----------



## jbuhler

I picked up Studio Brass Pro as a complement to SSB. So far they seem a good match in terms of being complements—Studio Brass has a lot of muted articulations, which are generally lacking in SSB—but I haven't yet tried to mix them together in a big orchestral setting.

In general, Studio Brass is much brassier at the higher dynamic layers and this is both positive and negative, depending on what you are trying to do. Sustains (regular longs) are often rather lifeless and don't have a real pianissimo, hardly even a p (and certainly not that lovely velvety tone you can get from very soft brass), and because it turns brassy as you push the modwheel, it's hard to dial life into the sustained chords. The legatos are a bit better because they give the modwheel more range to work with before turning overly brassy. I find the solo horn 1 legato patch to be just weird and very uncharacteristic. I knew this patch was a bit suspect from the walkthroughs, but playing with it—yowsa.

Overall, I'm pleased with Studio Brass Pro as a complement to SSB but I am happy that I have SSB as my main brass library. My initial impression is that I'd encounter quite a lot more limitations working regularly with Studio Brass compared to SSB. (I like the big hall sound in SSB, which you really hear when you listen to SSB side by side with Studio Brass, so that's not an issue for me.)


----------



## Lcas

re-peat said:


> Lcas, I can make you an audio example of some of the SStB instruments with added reverb, if you like.
> What kind of reverb would you like to hear? Big-ish, big or very big?
> (And which reverb do you plan on using? Maybe I have it too.)
> 
> _


Thanks a lot, as big as you think is sensible. Whatever you think the limit is, to push the size where it can go. I have audiority xenoverb for algorithmic, and the stuff in KONTAKT 6 I played around with for convolution before, and it seems fine for me.



Wolfie2112 said:


> Why couldn’t you add reverb? There are no rules. In one of the videos, Christian even throws a reverb AND delay on a horn section....it sounds awesome! I bought the Studio Core version, the price is incredible.


OK cool, I was assuming that having reverb on something with a little room or tail built-in, would result in weirdness, and doing the same to something dry-er like the close mic would sound right.

I'm starting to feel like I am fine with core because even if it isn't exactly what I want right away it's more than good for me. If I want pro I can just relax until Christmas while I get to know it, and music in general, better.


----------



## re-peat

None of you has a problem with *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet1.mp3 (this trumpet)*? That's *Trumpet 1 Legato* controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)







And *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet2.mp3 (these legato transitions)* from *Trumpet 2* (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?

_


----------



## Tice

Ugh, that really doesn't sound right. I hope they fix it. I have their symphonic brass, quite happy with that. Got a discount on their studio brass, was thinking about it. But this makes me want to wait.


----------



## jbuhler

re-peat said:


> None of you has a problem with *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet1.mp3 (this trumpet)*? That's *Trumpet 1 Legato* controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet2.mp3 (these legato transitions)* from *Trumpet 2* (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?
> 
> _


There's enough modwheel space to play to avoid these problems both above and below the threshold on Trumpet 1. Then it's a question of getting the levels right that the instrument sounds balanced with the orchestra. I'll likely make two patches out of it to get more control. I haven't encountered those legato transitions in Trumpet 2. If I had to have that line, I'd use a different trumpet.


----------



## StillLife

jbuhler said:


> I picked up Studio Brass Pro as a complement to SSB. So far they seem a good match in terms of being complements—Studio Brass has a lot of muted articulations, which are generally lacking in SSB—but I haven't yet tried to mix them together in a big orchestral setting.
> 
> In general, Studio Brass is much brassier at the higher dynamic layers and this is both positive and negative, depending on what you are trying to do. Sustains (regular longs) are often rather lifeless and don't have a real pianissimo, hardly even a p (and certainly not that lovely velvety tone you can get from very soft brass), and because it turns brassy as you push the modwheel, it's hard to dial life into the sustained chords. The legatos are a bit better because they give the modwheel more range to work with before turning overly brassy. I find the solo horn 1 legato patch to be just weird and very uncharacteristic. I knew this patch was a bit suspect from the walkthroughs, but playing with it—yowsa.
> 
> Overall, I'm pleased with Studio Brass Pro as a complement to SSB but I am happy that I have SSB as my main brass library. My initial impression is that I'd encounter quite a lot more limitations working regularly with Studio Brass compared to SSB. (I like the big hall sound in SSB, which you really hear when you listen to SSB side by side with Studio Brass, so that's not an issue for me.)


Very informative, thank you. As I like to use brass chorally, I think Studio might be not my first pack. Curious about the usefulness of SSB for my genre. What do you think? Can the SSB brass be used in indie pop/singer songwriter? I find that SCS and SSoS - also Air - fit perfectly when you pull the ezmix towards close. Would that also be the case with the brass (and SWW, for that matter...)?


----------



## skythemusic

The attack on this example is ugly and at higher dynamics it sounds phasy and harsh. Yikes.



re-peat said:


> None of you has a problem with *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet1.mp3 (this trumpet)*? That's *Trumpet 1 Legato* controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet2.mp3 (these legato transitions)* from *Trumpet 2* (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?
> 
> _


----------



## Lcas

re-peat said:


> None of you has a problem with *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet1.mp3 (this trumpet)*? That's *Trumpet 1 Legato* controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet2.mp3 (these legato transitions)* from *Trumpet 2* (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?
> 
> _


Thanks for the heads-up, I'll just get core and fill in the gaps later with 90s retro trumpet, descant horn, maybe Berlin Expansion A.


----------



## The Darris

re-peat said:


> None of you has a problem with *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet1.mp3 (this trumpet)*? That's *Trumpet 1 Legato* controlled with the modwheel. (To verify that I didn't do anything outrageous with the modwheel, check the image below. You'll see that it never even reaches value 100. But there's this terrible transition somewhere around value 70-75 where layers cross-fade, things phase awfully and the instrument sounds filtered in the worst possibe way. And when the modwheel goes down just a tiny little bit (around value 60-69) that phasing, piercing ugliness suddenly disappears and we're back to a more normal but dynamically incorrect sound. Totally unplayable, this thing.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet2.mp3 (these legato transitions)* from *Trumpet 2* (which fortunately suffers less from the problem that plagues Trumpet 1), is that something to be pleased about too?
> 
> _


Yikes. 

This further illustrates the complete lack of attention to detail that we've come to like from much, MUCH, older Spitfire libraries. I know you can't open the Legato patch up to peak under the hood but I'm curious to see just how bad the sample editing was in the other patches. Studio Strings was atrocious and, for the first time, I found myself contacting their product manager directly about these issues. 

I just watched Christian's video about how they made Albion (the original) and he talked a lot about their passion, especially into the creative design of their libraries. All of that has disappeared into a sort of monochromatic sample factory. I'm excited that they've been able to build a company up to this level but, I fear they have drifting (if not already there) into that spot where all large sample developers end up. Just a factory wherein they pump out boring, poorly crafted, lazy products that the masses will just eat up. 

Everything, in at least the last 2-3 years, that Spitfire as produced as gone down hill. Aside from their libraries being less interesting and lacking proper QA, their demos have crumbled to a bland demonstration of showing how good this library sounds as a pad or how bad the library sounds when you try to throw a good composition at it. Paul's demos for the Studio Series don't lack quality of composition but they do show how this MASSIVE collection of samples fails at rendering a good, modern sounding mock-up. The Studio Series was a 5-10 year step backwards when it comes to realism and quality.

I wish they didn't abandon the old BML series. The Symphonic Orchestra version is nice, having all of them collected into three single libraries but the original intentions behind the BML line was great. When they shifted gears to the SSO re-brand, that was when Spitfire started down that path of losing their identity that original users loved. 

I'm sure you and I could lament for hours about how the BML series wasn't finished and yet they just ported it all into the SSO rebrand. It sucks because their website doesn't have the originally "promised" material for all for the original BML series and the SSO libraries only show what is available. I'm still waiting for that Solo Trombone Legato....YEARS later. That is just one patch among many others we were promised. 

-C


----------



## re-peat

*Lcas, *

A rather quick and dirty example, I’m afraid. (Links at the bottom of this post.) Various instruments and combinations of instruments through the Seventh Heaven Amsterdam Hall; dry-wet balance more or less 50/50. A very simple set-up in which any decent reverb will do about just as well (or just as bad, depending on your point of view). If it were for real though, I would use different tools (and add a delay as well) and also spend quite a bit more time on this, but I just can't stand another minute today with these sounds, and besides, a more elaborate excercise wouldn’t be much help to you anyway since you don’t have the tools to recreate it.

In order of appearance: (1) First Horn (2) Second Horn (3) Euphonium and Cimbasso, joined halfway through by two Trombones (4) Two trumpets (5) The two Horns again, but this time staccato & marcato.

The crackling noise you hear at 0’29”, during the second horn’s appearance, that is something in the samples. You can hear more of that in *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SSB_FrenchHrn2_Legato.mp3 (this example)*.

(JBuhler would probably advice us to use _another_ horn in this instance. The thing is, I can provide so much examples from all across the library, that he will eventually be forced to advice us to use a different library altogether.)

By the way, *JBuhler*: try an interval of a major 7th starting from the either E3 or F3. And what do you have to say about *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet2_ex2.mp3 (this fine legato specimen)*? That's also Trumpet 2.


Anyway. *Lcas*, here’s the *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Reverbed.mp3 (wet version)*. And for comparison: the *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Dry.mp3 (dry version)*.

_


----------



## re-peat

jbuhler said:


> There's enough modwheel space to play to avoid these problems both above and below the threshold on Trumpet 1.



No, there isn't. Besides, I'd like you to explain to us how you are going to work the modwheel in such a way that it skips over that ugly transition zone? If I need to go from 60 to 80 or higher, I have to pass through 70-75, right? Can't just hop over it with a modwheel, can I? And back down again, it's the same thing.
_


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Yikes....that examples sound not pleasing at all, I don´t know what to say.


----------



## prodigalson

in a world where CSB and MSB exist, having crossfade transitions that jarring and horrendous is truly unacceptable considering Spitfire's prominence in the top strata of sample developers.


----------



## The Darris

jbuhler said:


> There's enough modwheel space to play to avoid these problems both above and below the threshold on Trumpet 1. Then it's a question of getting the levels right that the instrument sounds balanced with the orchestra. I'll likely make two patches out of it to get more control. I haven't encountered those legato transitions in Trumpet 2. If I had to have that line, I'd use a different trumpet.


It's sad that we've come to point where the user defends these issues with a ridiculous work-around. Why on Earth would I want to have the same patch loaded twice just so I could use the low dynamics and the high dynamics separately. At some point, you simply just have to say, "Yeah, these issues are garbage and need to be fixed. Hello Spitfire Support, fix this shit...please." 

I mean, if you feel like you weren't let down by that purchase, that's fine but don't seriously avoid the elephant in the room that is those issues. Also, you have encountered those legato transitions because they were just demonstrated to you. It's great that you haven't encountered them in your work but they exist and are very, VERY, bad. It would be really great if the users of these libraries would actually raise hell with Spitfire for releasing such a lazily put together paper weight equivalent to a hard drive.


----------



## Lcas

re-peat said:


> *Lcas, *
> 
> A rather quick and dirty example, I’m afraid. (Links at the bottom of this post.) Various instruments and combinations of instruments through the Seventh Heaven Amsterdam Hall; dry-wet balance more or less 50/50. A very simple set-up in which any decent reverb will do about just as well (or just as bad, depending on your point of view). If it were for real though, I would use different tools (and add a delay as well) and also spend quite a bit more time on this, but I just can't stand another minute today with these sounds, and besides, a more elaborate excercise wouldn’t be much help to you anyway since you don’t have the tools to recreate it.
> 
> In order of appearance: (1) First Horn (2) Second Horn (3) Euphonium and Cimbasso, joined halfway through by two Trombones (4) Two trumpets (5) The two Horns again, but this time staccato & marcato.
> 
> The crackling noise you hear at 0’29”, during the second horn’s appearance, that is something in the samples. You can hear more of that in *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SSB_FrenchHrn2_Legato.mp3 (this example)*.
> 
> (JBuhler would probably advice us to use _another_ horn in this instance. The thing is, I can provide so much examples from all across the library, that he will eventually be forced to advice us to use a different library altogether.)
> 
> By the way, *JBuhler*: try an interval of a major 7th starting from the either E3 or F3. And what do you have to say about *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Trumpet2_ex2.mp3 (this fine legato specimen)*? That's also Trumpet 2.
> 
> 
> Anyway. *Lcas*, here’s the *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Reverbed.mp3 (wet version)*. And for comparison: the *http://users.telenet.be/re-peat/SStBrass_Dry.mp3 (dry version)*.
> 
> _


Ok, the price is great but seems like there's a lot of things to work around instead of work with. I will probably get CSB, I like the tone better anyways. From everything I read it is solid. Almost let a good deal get in the way of a good choice. Thanks again


----------



## erica-grace

The Darris said:


> Yikes.
> 
> This further illustrates the complete lack of attention to detail that we've come to like from much, MUCH, older Spitfire libraries. I know you can't open the Legato patch up to peak under the hood but I'm curious to see just how bad the sample editing was in the other patches. Studio Strings was atrocious and, for the first time, I found myself contacting their product manager directly about these issues.
> 
> I just watched Christian's video about how they made Albion (the original) and he talked a lot about their passion, especially into the creative design of their libraries. All of that has disappeared into a sort of monochromatic sample factory. I'm excited that they've been able to build a company up to this level but, I fear they have drifting (if not already there) into that spot where all large sample developers end up. Just a factory wherein they pump out boring, poorly crafted, lazy products that the masses will just eat up.
> 
> Everything, in at least the last 2-3 years, that Spitfire as produced as gone down hill. Aside from their libraries being less interesting and lacking proper QA, their demos have crumbled to a bland demonstration of showing how good this library sounds as a pad or how bad the library sounds when you try to throw a good composition at it. Paul's demos for the Studio Series don't lack quality of composition but they do show how this MASSIVE collection of samples fails at rendering a good, modern sounding mock-up. The Studio Series was a 5-10 year step backwards when it comes to realism and quality.
> 
> I wish they didn't abandon the old BML series. The Symphonic Orchestra version is nice, having all of them collected into three single libraries but the original intentions behind the BML line was great. When they shifted gears to the SSO re-brand, that was when Spitfire started down that path of losing their identity that original users loved.
> 
> I'm sure you and I could lament for hours about how the BML series wasn't finished and yet they just ported it all into the SSO rebrand. It sucks because their website doesn't have the originally "promised" material for all for the original BML series and the SSO libraries only show what is available. I'm still waiting for that Solo Trombone Legato....YEARS later. That is just one patch among many others we were promised.
> 
> -C



I agree.

I wonder if Paul and Christian are still developing libraries, or if people like Homay and others are doing them, and Paul and Christian have just taken an oversight/CEO type role. That would explain alot.

Of course, I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, and this is nothing but pure speculation.


----------



## jbuhler

re-peat said:


> No, there isn't. Besides, I'd like you to explain to us how you are going to work the modwheel in such a way that it skips over that ugly transition zone? If I need to go from 60 to 80 or higher, I have to pass through 70-75, right? Can't just hop over it with a modwheel, can I? And back down again, it's the same thing.
> _


No, you construct your solo around the limitations of the instrument. You know that transition is a problem, so you don't use it. Pretty much every VI I have has these kinds of issues. Many are much more limiting.


----------



## jbuhler

The Darris said:


> It's sad that we've come to point where the user defends these issues with a ridiculous work-around. Why on Earth would I want to have the same patch loaded twice just so I could use the low dynamics and the high dynamics separately. At some point, you simply just have to say, "Yeah, these issues are garbage and need to be fixed. Hello Spitfire Support, fix this shit...please."
> 
> I mean, if you feel like you weren't let down by that purchase, that's fine but don't seriously avoid the elephant in the room that is those issues. Also, you have encountered those legato transitions because they were just demonstrated to you. It's great that you haven't encountered them in your work but they exist and are very, VERY, bad. It would be really great if the users of these libraries would actually raise hell with Spitfire for releasing such a lazily put together paper weight equivalent to a hard drive.


I didn't say they weren't bad, I just said I hadn't encountered them. Many of @re-peat's examples take work (and unmusical playing) to produce, like the horn example he posted a while back. 

ETA: The transitions here are irritating but as I mentioned I encounter these sorts of things all the time in libraries from pretty much every producer. I haven't had this library long but I've messed around with both trumpet patches, I'd noted the poor transition in trumpet 1 (it's hard to miss and it's a real limitation) but also that it seemed containable to the transition. I noticed some other weird things in trumpet 2 that seem to have to do with the vibrato (reducing the vibrato made the issue go away) but I haven't experienced anything like the example @re-peat posted. I don't doubt that they exist and if I encounter them in routine work I'll definitely report them. I already noted that the horn 1 legato patch has all sorts of problems and that I don't like the way the open sustains work for pretty much all the instruments (again the transition layers are a problem). The library overall is limited—at the regular pro price almost certainly over-priced for those limitations—but it serves my needs as a supplement so long as I can get it to mix with SSB, and I haven't had it long enough to know yet about that. I would not recommend the pro library for someone who doesn't have another dedicated brass library. Core is harder to say because of the low price point and so the question becomes: how does the library stack up against comparably priced libraries and things like the Kontakt Factory Library?


----------



## The Darris

jbuhler said:


> I didn't say they weren't bad, I just said I hadn't encountered them. Many of @re-peat's examples take work (and unmusical playing) to produce, like the horn example he posted a while back.
> 
> ETA: The transitions here are irritating but as I mentioned I encounter these sorts of things all the time in libraries from pretty much every producer. I haven't had this library long but I've messed around with both trumpet patches, I'd noted the poor transition in trumpet 1 (it's hard to miss and it's a real limitation) but also that it seemed containable to the transition. I noticed some other weird things in trumpet 2 that seem to have to do with the vibrato (reducing the vibrato made the issue go away) but I haven't experienced anything like the example @re-peat posted. I don't doubt that they exist and if I encounter them in routine work I'll definitely report them. I already noted that the horn 1 legato patch has all sorts of problems and that I don't like the way the open sustains work for pretty much all the instruments (again the transition layers are a problem). The library overall is limited—at the regular pro price almost certainly over-priced for those limitations—but it serves my needs as a supplement so long as I can get it to mix with SSB, and I haven't had it long enough to know yet about that. I would not recommend the pro library for someone who doesn't have another dedicated brass library. Core is harder to say because of the low price point and so the question becomes: how does the library stack up against comparably priced libraries and things like the Kontakt Factory Library?


I never said you said they weren't bad so please don't imply that I was putting words in your mouth (ironically enough). You're missing my point that I was trying to make. Your reaction (so far) is to not pressure the creators to fix these issues. We shouldn't have to avoid very important functions of these libraries like dynamics. If something is that bad, the users should pressure the creator to fix it. That is why they have a support line. How on Earth can they improve their products if users don't critique and demand a fix. If the company doesn't fix it after they've been given the opportunity, then that is just terrible customer service and poor business practices which they can be reviewed on separately. 

Maybe you have submitted a request to them but you haven't said so after I've made that point so I'm basing my opinion off of the evidence you've given me at the moment. You're simply just ignoring the issues and just work around those problems. I don't know about you, but if I spend hundreds of dollars on a piece of kit, I expect it to work as advertised and if it doesn't, I expect them to fix those issues in an update after I provide them with adequate examples and feedback of those issues, like those @re-peat has demonstrated. Unmusical or not, they are problems that need to be fixed. Spitfire, among many other large companies, have demonstrated a high level of incompetence on the QA side of things with their latest releases. The Studio Series being one of the worsts I've ever encountered by a large developer.


----------



## The Darris

erica-grace said:


> I agree.
> 
> I wonder if Paul and Christian are still developing libraries, or if people like Homay and others are doing them, and Paul and Christian have just taken an oversight/CEO type role. That would explain alot.
> 
> Of course, I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, and this is nothing but pure speculation.


Will Evans has taken over as CEO of Spitfire. Paul and Christian have moved to a more Co-Founder role and I guess oversee the creative direction their company goes. I don't think they have too much to do with the actual development until it gets to BETA. I highly doubt they are present for every recording session, like they were in the early days.


----------



## erica-grace

The Darris said:


> Paul and Christian have moved to a more Co-Founder role and I guess oversee the creative direction their company goes. I don't think they have too much to do with the actual development until it gets to BETA. I highly doubt they are present for every recording session, like they were in the early days.



Bummer.


----------



## jbuhler

The Darris said:


> I never said you said they weren't bad so please don't imply that I was putting words in your mouth (ironically enough). You're missing my point that I was trying to make. Your reaction (so far) is to not pressure the creators to fix these issues. We shouldn't have to avoid very important functions of these libraries like dynamics. If something is that bad, the users should pressure the creator to fix it. That is why they have a support line. How on Earth can they improve their products if users don't critique and demand a fix. If the company doesn't fix it after they've been given the opportunity, then that is just terrible customer service and poor business practices which they can be reviewed on separately.


First, I haven't had the library long enough to submit a report. I do routinely submit reports when I find problems in libraries; sometimes they even get fixed! If I encounter something like that trumpet 2 example, I would certainly report that. I may report the issue I'm having with the vibrato on trumpet 2 if I can isolate it well enough to write a complaint. The transition for trumpet 1, I'm less sure about. It doesn't sound good, true, but this is often the case for these layer transitions on many instruments I own and often they are the consequence of what the developers chose to optimize when there were tradeoffs. From my noodling, I like the two layers in themselves, they just don't seem to sit well with each other. Most layer transitions aren't as pronounced as this, that is true, and it is not ideal, that is also true. As for the horn 1, I don't even know where I'd begin my complaint. They'd have done better not shipping the library with that legato patch, but I did know about it when I bought the library.


----------



## re-peat

jbuhler said:


> Many of @re-peat's examples take work (and unmusical playing) to produce



I’m sorry but they don’t. I come across these things within 15 seconds after opening a patch. Play a few legatos with the Trumpet 2, and there you have it. Hold a long note in the upper register of the French Horn 2, and there you have it. Try to do something expressive with the Oboe, and you can’t. Dare use the highest notes of the Flute Legato and out come these strange noises that have nothing to do with a Flute whatsoever. Use Trumpet 1 Legato with the modwheel and hear a pig being strangled. Nothing ‘hard work’ about it. Simply play these Studio libraries like you would any other library, and you’re in for one unacceptable horror after another. Seriously. (And I can add least 12 more of these things which I’ve come across but haven’t mentioned yet.)

It seems to me some of you people are satisfied with using 2% of a library and if that happens to sound half-decent (which, I’ll admit, the Studio Series is capable of too), you’re happy. Dear oh dear.

I agree however that some of my examples exhibit unmusical playing. But here’s why: most of the patches simply aren’t capable of rendering musical playing into accordingly musical audio. Can’t be done. You play musically and it comes out sounding unmusical. That’s the perfect description of the Spitfire Studio Series. And playing even more musical than I already do, will only reveal more flaws and embarrassements.

Core or Pro, doesn’t make one bit of difference, they both are Crap. Utter and Complete Crap.

_


----------



## The Darris

jbuhler said:


> First, I haven't had the library long enough to submit a report. I do routinely submit reports when I find problems in libraries; sometimes they even get fixed! If I encounter something like that trumpet 2 example, I would certainly report that. I may report the issue I'm having with the vibrato on trumpet 2 if I can isolate it well enough to write a complaint. The transition for trumpet 1, I'm less sure about. It doesn't sound good, true, but this is often the case for these layer transitions on many instruments I own and often they are the consequence of what the developers chose to optimize when there were trade-offs. From my noodling, I like the two layers in themselves, they just don't seem to sit well with each other. Most layer transitions aren't as pronounced as this, that is true, and it is not ideal, that is also true. As for the horn 1, I don't even know where I'd begin my complaint. They'd have done better not shipping the library with that legato patch, but I did know about it when I bought the library.


Well, I hope you're able to send them some detailed support requests. The ones I sent for Studio Strings were very thorough and haven't been fixed, as far as I'm aware. Something that has bugged me since they switch to their own download manager is the lack of informative reports detailing the list of changes in their updates. I get frequent updates for libraries like Symphonic Brass but without any information as to what was fixed. I had a 3 gb update sometime last year. I was excited hoping it was some sort of content update but it wasn't. I found that out after waiting a week for their support line to just say it was various bug fixes and updates to their engine. That's great to hear but also, it would be nice if they'd publish some reports so we can be informed. This is the most common thing found in software development, period. Anyway, I'm just ranting about a separate issue. Glad to hear you will report those issues when you have more to report. 

Best,

Chris


----------



## The Darris

re-peat said:


> I’m sorry but they don’t. I come across these things within 15 seconds after opening a patch. Play a few legatos with the Trumpet 2, and there you have it. Hold a long note in the upper register of the French Horn 2, and there you have it. Try to do something expressive with the Oboe, and you can’t. Dare use the highest notes of the Flute Legato and out come these strange noises that have nothing to do with a Flute whatsoever. Use Trumpet 1 Legato with the modwheel and hear a pig being strangled. Nothing ‘hard work’ about it. Simply play these Studio libraries like you would any other library, and you’re in for one unacceptable horror after another. Seriously. (And I can add least 12 more of these things which I’ve come across but haven’t mentioned yet.)
> 
> It seems to me some of you people are satisfied with using 2% of a library and if that happens to sound half-decent (which, I’ll admit, the Studio Series is capable of too), you’re happy. Dear oh dear.
> 
> I agree however that some of my examples exhibit unmusical playing. But here’s why: most of the patches simply aren’t capable of rendering musical playing into accordingly musical audio. Can’t be done. You play musically and it comes out sounding unmusical. That’s the perfect description of the Spitfire Studio Series. And playing even more musical than I already do, will only reveal more flaws and embarrassements.
> 
> Core or Pro, doesn’t make one bit of difference, they both are Crap. Utter and Complete Crap.
> 
> _


Can you do that again but with more emotion? Haha.

I totally agree with you man. Within 5 minutes of fiddling around with Studio Strings, I was very frustrated. Not only was the library just bad but their product page had published completely inaccurate information of the contents. The biggest one saying they had recorded 4-8 layers of dynamics. The most layers found after searching every patch was 4 (in the Spiccato). The average was 2-3 layers across the entire Pro version. They've since fixed that information but it was present for the first week of the release. 

At the end of the day, everything about the Studio Series from concept to release has demonstrated a complete lack of oversight and quality assurance. I wanted to like the Studio Series but there is, sadly, nothing remotely likable about any of it.


----------



## Paul Cardon

The Darris said:


> Will Evans has taken over as CEO of Spitfire. Paul and Christian have moved to a more Co-Founder role and I guess oversee the creative direction their company goes. I don't think they have too much to do with the actual development until it gets to BETA. I highly doubt they are present for every recording session, like they were in the early days.


Wrong.


----------



## The Darris

Paul Cardon said:


> Wrong.


Okay. I guess you won't clarify where I'm wrong but that's cool. Will Evans is the CEO of Spitfire now. Christian mentioned on one of his 200+ youtube channels (that I am not going to go chase down) that Paul and him were taking a step back to a slightly different role and, based on their schedules and the events they do, I can't possibly see how they are present for every single recording session possible. They record A LOT. But whatever, you're the type of person to just say wrong and not have to give any explanation, oh the joys of certain VI-C individuals. If you can provide me with some more context of where I'm wrong, I would gladly change my opinions on this.


----------



## Manuel Stumpf

Well to me it feels a bit like the complete studio series was rushed out (purely driven by business intentions), in order to come to the market before CSB and CSW drop.
CSB is light years ahead of the studio brass when it comes to quality.
However the price point of the studio series is really great.
It has lots of useful content.


----------



## jbuhler

re-peat said:


> I’m sorry but they don’t. I come across these things within 15 seconds after opening a patch. Play a few legatos with the Trumpet 2, and there you have it. Hold a long note in the upper register of the French Horn 2, and there you have it. Try to do something expressive with the Oboe, and you can’t. Dare use the highest notes of the Flute Legato and out come these strange noises that have nothing to do with a Flute whatsoever. Use Trumpet 1 Legato with the modwheel and hear a pig being strangled. Nothing ‘hard work’ about it. Simply play these Studio libraries like you would any other library, and you’re in for one unacceptable horror after another. Seriously. (And I can add least 12 more of these things which I’ve come across but haven’t mentioned yet.)
> 
> It seems to me some of you people are satisfied with using 2% of a library and if that happens to sound half-decent (which, I’ll admit, the Studio Series is capable of too), you’re happy. Dear oh dear.
> 
> I agree however that some of my examples exhibit unmusical playing. But here’s why: most of the patches simply aren’t capable of rendering musical playing into accordingly musical audio. Can’t be done. You play musically and it comes out sounding unmusical. That’s the perfect description of the Spitfire Studio Series. And playing even more musical than I already do, will only reveal more flaws and embarrassements.
> 
> Core or Pro, doesn’t make one bit of difference, they both are Crap. Utter and Complete Crap.
> 
> _


That's your experience, not mine. I played around with the trumpets for 30 minutes to an hour yesterday, and I had immediate issues with the dynamic transition of trumpet 1, yes. I had some foibles in the second trumpet that seemed related to the vibrato. But I did not encounter the issues you documented. Maybe it was luck. I can't say yet, as I haven't been at my rig to test your exact examples. All I can say is that noodling around I didn't encounter them. And I also rather like the soft dynamic layer of trumpet 1 legato.


----------



## The Darris

Paul Cardon said:


> Wrong.


Oh you know, why not. It wasn't too hard to find. Especially after I looked up my emails with Will talking about the whole promotion. But just so those who have any doubts that I was "wrong," here you go.


----------



## Paul Cardon

The Darris said:


> Oh you know, why not. It wasn't too hard to find. Especially after I looked up my emails with Will talking about the whole promotion. But just so those who have any doubts that I was "wrong," here you go.



Yeah, Will is CEO, but Will likely has near nothing to do with the recording process. His role is to offload management responsibilities from everyone else so they can focus on dev and recording. Paul and Christian are constantly at AIR. Paul is still hardly seen outside of the tutorial videos, so what do you think he's doing all the time? It feels harsh to speculate in that damning way like it's fact.


----------



## The Darris

Paul Cardon said:


> Yeah, Will is CEO, but Will likely has near nothing to do with the recording process. His role is to offload management responsibilities from everyone else so they can focus on dev and recording. Paul and Christian are constantly at AIR. Paul is still hardly seen outside of the tutorial videos, so what do you think he's doing all the time? Calm down the harsh speculation, bud.


I think you are reading into my words a little bit, and I think calling them harsh is a bit much. I have a professional relationship with Will as well as a few other employees at Spitfire. I know a bit about their process, especially the development side of things. Paul and Christian play a vital role as co-founders, I'm not diminishing that at all. They oversee the direction the company goes as far as products but the overall business side of how those products are marketed, shipped, managed, produced, etc, is run by Will and a few others (obviously), such as their product manager, Stanley Gabriel. Stanley isn't mentioned or talked about much in the public eye of Spitfire. But, he's a composer, producer, etc who has worked with Paul and Christian for a very long time. It's people like Stanley who help inform someone like Will. 

Paul and Christian have taken a step back from that role to simply enjoy life a lot more. Both of them write music more because of it and Paul, well, he's building his own studio at his place and has been creating videos of his own now for a few months. They are a for profit endeavor so to think that their mindset hasn't changed from the days of old would be fairly ignorant, not that I'm implying that about you. We're clearly seeing a trend with the level of quality of Spitfire's products diminishing with each new release. I've followed their company very closely for a number of years now as I used to run my own reviewing series on sample libraries. I use their libraries a lot in my work and I've come to find that their newer products are quite inferior to their older ones and their older libraries aren't without issues as well. Those issues are just worse in their newer products. 

I'm not wearing a tin foil hat over here. I'm simply stating observable issues and problems that have developed out of Spitfire in the last few years. Ever since the rebranding of the BML series into SSO, we've seen a steady dip in quality by Spitfire. It sucks. I like their style and concepts they approach but I would really like those concepts to be executed with better precision. They have a lot of employees now, there is no reason why they can't have a higher caliber of output from here on out, especially when these issues are being brought up by all users. Especially Spitfire fans.


----------



## Parsifal666

Erik said:


> Hi,
> Herewith a few examples I made with different brass products, based on the Airport theme from Herrmann's North by Northwest. Made with 8DIO Century Brass (x4) - Orchestral Tools Brass - Spitfire Symphonic Brass (x4) - VSL Triple horn (x4) and VSL Dimension Brass Synchronized.
> 
> I also added a version from the movie: Streets with the same notes , but this time very fast and very soft (pp indicated).
> 
> And sorry.....I don't have SSB on my HD yet, so no example of this library.
> PM me for a midi-file if you want!
> 
> I hope you'll enjoy the offered overview
> 
> 8DIO
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw8dio-mp3.17430/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> Orchestral Tools Brass
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw_ot-mp3.17431/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> Spitfire Symphonic Brass
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw_ssb-mp3.17432/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> VSL Triple horn (x4)
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnwvsl_triplehorn-mp3.17433/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> VSL Dimension Brass Synchronized
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnwvsldb_synchr-mp3.17435/][/AUDIOPLUS]


Dammmn LOVE the OT. Soooo, what's the final verdict on this library? What a about core vs pro? Getting seriously tempted.


----------



## re-peat

Paul Cardon said:


> Yeah, Will is CEO, but Will likely has near nothing to do with the recording process. His role is to offload management responsibilities from everyone else so they can focus on dev and recording. Paul and Christian are constantly at AIR. Paul is still hardly seen outside of the tutorial videos, so what do you think he's doing all the time? It feels harsh to speculate in that damning way like it's fact.



Well, then Will should do a good deal more off-loading, cause The Studio Series aren’t exactly evidence of there having been much focus on dev and recording.

And we can't be harsh and damning enough, as far as I'm concerned. I don’t care who does what at Spitfire these days. The fact that is that Paul and Christian gave these libraries the thumbs up for release. It's none of my business, I know (except that it affects my business), but I would humbly, politely and respectfully suggest that they both take a moment, well, more than a moment, to review the seriousness of the situation and spend some quality time with their former selves, because those former selves would never ever ever have released anything anywhere near as bad as the libraries under discussion here. Never.

_


----------



## sostenuto

Was headed for SStOrch, but waters are surely muddied at this point. Even muddier given talents of most posters vs personal limitations.
Gonna back off to the fun stuff …… OACE, WW EVO, maybe LCO Textures.
Appreciate these candid conversations and clarifications affecting notable *dinero*.


----------



## Paul Cardon

re-peat said:


> Well, then Will should do a good deal more off-loading, cause The Studio Series aren’t exactly evidence of there having been much focus on dev and recording _at all_.
> 
> And we can't be harsh and damning enough, as far as I'm concerned. I don’t care who does what at Spitfire these days. The fact that is that Paul and Christian gave these libraries the thumbs up for release. It's none of my business, I know (except that it affects my business), but I would humbly, politely and respectfully suggest that they both take a moment, well, more than a moment, to review the seriousness of the situation and spend some quality time with their former selves, because those former selves would never ever ever have released anything anywhere near as bad as the libraries under discussion here. Never.
> 
> _


Oh sure, I don't think patting anyone on the back and saying "good job mates, you tried your best" when you're disappointed with a product is the only option. But there's definitely a weird fire in this thread that's pointed to take aim at the souls of other people. It's incredibly disheartening to see these threads continually turn into these big damning personal dissections of character and intent. So many devs rightfully scared away from this place.


----------



## Paul Cardon

The Darris said:


> I think you are reading into my words a little bit, and I think calling them harsh is a bit much. I have a professional relationship with Will as well as a few other employees at Spitfire. I know a bit about their process, especially the development side of things. Paul and Christian play a vital role as co-founders, I'm not diminishing that at all. They oversee the direction the company goes as far as products but the overall business side of how those products are marketed, shipped, managed, produced, etc, is run by Will and a few others (obviously), such as their product manager, Stanley Gabriel. Stanley isn't mentioned or talked about much in the public eye of Spitfire. But, he's a composer, producer, etc who has worked with Paul and Christian for a very long time. It's people like Stanley who help inform someone like Will.
> 
> Paul and Christian have taken a step back from that role to simply enjoy life a lot more. Both of them write music more because of it and Paul, well, he's building his own studio at his place and has been creating videos of his own now for a few months. They are a for profit endeavor so to think that their mindset hasn't changed from the days of old would be fairly ignorant, not that I'm implying that about you. We're clearly seeing a trend with the level of quality of Spitfire's products diminishing with each new release. I've followed their company very closely for a number of years now as I used to run my own reviewing series on sample libraries. I use their libraries a lot in my work and I've come to find that their newer products are quite inferior to their older ones and their older libraries aren't without issues as well. Those issues are just worse in their newer products.
> 
> I'm not wearing a tin foil hat over here. I'm simply stating observable issues and problems that have developed out of Spitfire in the last few years. Ever since the rebranding of the BML series into SSO, we've seen a steady dip in quality by Spitfire. It sucks. I like their style and concepts they approach but I would really like those concepts to be executed with better precision. They have a lot of employees now, there is no reason why they can't have a higher caliber of output from here on out, especially when these issues are being brought up by all users. Especially Spitfire fans.


I reckon you're right. I think the comments just hit me off-kilter, and that's my fault.


----------



## Parsifal666

I honestly don't mean any offense whatsoever to anyone. However, does it seem as if some folks have a bigger problem with SA than just the recent libraries? I keep reading all this invective and yet still am not hearing anything woefully wrong with the grand majority of this series. I could be wrong but this kind of conscientiously bilious denunciation seems largely unnecessary and to a good extent erroneous. I've liked what I've heard from these libraries again and again and I'm glad the final decision is down to me. I think young people are getting unnecessarily confused...again, no offense but it sounds more as if SA somehow pissed in a couple of individuals' corn flakes in the past months, and seemingly for reasons having only a modicum to do with what seem to me fine and desirable libraries. I could be completely wrong, forgive me if so. Looking forward to hearing more of use about the libraries...re-peat I do respect you but to be honest your audio was the ultimate reason I bought SStWW. For that I'm grateful. Really.


----------



## erica-grace

Paul Cardon said:


> But there's definitely a weird fire in this thread that's pointed to take aim at the souls of other people.



Could you point to where that is?


----------



## Parsifal666

erica-grace said:


> Could you point to where that is?


Cracking up! +1000000


----------



## Denkii

For what it's worth: I got SStWW, which got a lot of flack, during the sale that's going on right now and for the price tag it is absolutely phenomenal.
I repeat it is phenomenal for the pricetag.
It is a statement where the causal determination needs to be taken into account which I feel often gets lost within these posts.
Granted, when we listen to people with a lot of experience in here, it probably also means we are listening to people who have heard a lot of libraries, who know how well individual instruments and patches CAN sound thus raising their own standard when they look at a new library.
But for the price tag it is absolutely lovely.
It offers a lot of content, a lot of flexibility and yes - it needs work to make it sound good and sit well in a mix. It is not an Afflatus Woodwinds. But it certainly is a good entry point.


----------



## The Darris

Paul Cardon said:


> Oh sure, I don't think patting anyone on the back and saying "good job mates, you tried your best" when you're disappointed with a product is the only option. But there's definitely a weird fire in this thread that's pointed to take aim at the souls of other people. It's incredibly disheartening to see these threads continually turn into these big damning personal dissections of character and intent. So many devs rightfully scared away from this place.


Well, my counter argument to your assessment as well as @Parsifal666 is there is nothing wrong to criticize the issues we discover and find, in these cases, very bad. @re-peat has been a very long time customer of Spitfire's before they were a commercial entity. I started buying their products when all they had was the Joby Burgess Percussion and Albion 1 Legacy. We've both grown to know Spitfire's sound and style and have watched it developed for years, the good and the bad. We are both recognizing a trend in their new products that concerns us. @re-peat has demonstrated those concerns that aren't limited to just one library but the entire series in question. I can no-longer demonstrate similar issues because I'd prefer not having a 200+ gb library that is full of major issues sitting unused on a perfectly good hard drive that helps drive my main template. 

I am not bashing or attacking any individual's soul who likes what they purchased but simply defending my position that the noticeably bad issues with these latest libraries aren't a minor blip on Spitfire's buggy radar. These are issues that have continued to snowball for the last few years. One can speculate as to why, which is what I've been doing. Based on the limited information I have, it simply lies within their QA department. The people in charge of making sure these things get ironed out before release either don't think these are problems or they are n't adept to working in those positions. That's the simplest answer to the pressing question but, despite the odds, it could just simply be an accident that managed to slip through the cracks. Oh well, like I said, one can only speculate.

-C


----------



## Paul Cardon

The Darris said:


> Well, my counter argument to your assessment as well as @Parsifal666 is there is nothing wrong to criticize the issues we discover and find, in these cases, very bad. @re-peat has been a very long time customer of Spitfire's before they were a commercial entity. I started buying their products when all they had was the Joby Burgess Percussion and Albion 1 Legacy. We've both grown to know Spitfire's sound and style and have watched it developed for years, the good and the bad. We are both recognizing a trend in their new products that concerns us. @re-peat has demonstrated those concerns that aren't limited to just one library but the entire series in question. I can no-longer demonstrate similar issues because I'd prefer not having a 200+ gb library that is full of major issues sitting unused on a perfectly good hard drive that helps drive my main template.
> 
> I am not bashing or attacking any individual's soul who likes what they purchased but simply defending my position that the noticeably bad issues with these latest libraries aren't a minor blip on Spitfire's buggy radar. These are issues that have continued to snowball for the last few years. One can speculate as to why, which is what I've been doing. Based on the limited information I have, it simply lies within their QA department. The people in charge of making sure these things get ironed out before release either don't think these are problems or they are n't adept to working in those positions. That's the simplest answer to the pressing question but, despite the odds, it could just simply be an accident that managed to slip through the cracks. Oh well, like I said, one can only speculate.
> 
> -C


Oh yeah, I can respect that entirely! (not like you need my permission haha)

There's just a weird vitriol that keeps spreading in these divisive threads rather than a truthful pursuit for honest help and exploration and critique. I know I'm not the only one that's been feeling it.


----------



## dzilizzi

I actually didn't see Re-peat say anything bad about the library until someone asked him his honest opinion. Then he got attacked for it, which wasn't really fair. 

I find every library out there has flaws. And a lot of times it is personal opinion and personal music style that makes the difference as to whether or not something is an actual problem. I think the biggest issue is that there is no demo for a lot of these orchestral samples. So you have to buy it to find out whether it works for you. Then you are stuck with it. And if this is how you make a living, or you are on a limited income, it can be a problem. I have a whole bunch of libraries I've bought that I'm not sure I will ever use. But I don't say anything because I think it may be my inexperience and not the libraries.

But from a business perspective, there are too many sample companies out there now and they are all rushing to make more product to sell because there is a limited audience for the product. I think the time of being able to take longer and make it perfect is pretty much gone. You have the people and space for a short time and if you can't get a good take from your oboe player, you don't have time to get another one in to redo it. I don't know what the answer is because having a single oboe player come in won't necessarily work because the space sound will be different. Plus the customers want Power Legato when you can't even get a good regular legato from your tuba player. 

I don't know what the answer is other than letting others have their opinion and not getting personal about it.


----------



## Zero&One

To be fair, having read the comments I don't feel anything bad was said. Honest and blunt, yes.
But I have learnt so much from both sides. And as pointed out, unless someone takes the negative stance (always the unpopular one on forums) nothing will ever get sorted from the devs.

There's certainly an air of "wow, all these goodies are so cheap (I'll forgive basic QA) and I'm grabbing them all!" in the threads. I personally don't want to spend good money and have to use workarounds and avoid certain or even whole sections! So I welcome these comments/examples, otherwise these same users are failing fellow peers by NOT saying something.


----------



## StillLife

Agree with James. It seems an honest and blunt discussion to me. I very much appreciate the lenghty and to the point descriptions I find in both Re-peat's and JBuhler's posts. They allow me to make up my own mind better.


----------



## erica-grace

James H said:


> There's certainly an air of "wow, all these goodies are so cheap (I'll forgive basic QA) and I'm grabbing them all!" in the threads.



Really. I certainly don't mind positive things said about libraries - in fact, I _want_ to hear those comments. But sometimes, the _OMG - I must have this now!!!_ and _Take my money please!!!_ and _RIP wallet!_ comments are a bit much.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Actually, I find the negativity quite wearing. It follows and appears in every thread about the Studio Series. I'm all for discussing the pros and cons of any given library, but there's a line where a constructive conversation crosses into tedious axe grinding and insults. And that line has been crossed a lot. For 18 pages. Front and back.


----------



## re-peat

Nobody finds it more wearing than I do, Alex. Do you seriously think I enjoy spending — or rather wasting — several hours a day on problems such as these?
If only developers would do their job better and have some more respect for their customers, none of these 18 pages would have been written. But as it is, I'm of the strongest opinion that there's great necessity that they *are* written.

_


----------



## AllanH

My download of Studio Brass Pro is now complete. I like what I heard in the official play-throughs, but the examples and experience above, puts that in a different light. Anyway, the "deed is done"; time to play.


----------



## Alex Fraser

re-peat said:


> Nobody finds it more wearing than I do, Alex. Do you seriously think I enjoy spending — or rather wasting — several hours a day on problems such as these?
> If only developers would do their job better and have some more respect for their customers, none of these 18 pages would have been written. But as it is, I'm of the strongest opinion that there's great necessity that they *are* written.
> 
> _


Have you aired your concerns to Spitfire directly? And if so, did you receive a reply? Genuine question.


----------



## AllanH

I much appreciate @re-peat and @The Darris taking the time to write out their experiences, whether negative or positive. I find it very helpful reading informed opinions especially when they are well-argued.


----------



## handz

Erik said:


> Hi,
> Herewith a few examples I made with different brass products, based on the Airport theme from Herrmann's North by Northwest. Made with 8DIO Century Brass (x4) - Orchestral Tools Brass - Spitfire Symphonic Brass (x4) - VSL Triple horn (x4) and VSL Dimension Brass Synchronized.
> 
> I also added a version from the movie: Streets with the same notes , but this time very fast and very soft (pp indicated).
> 
> And sorry.....I don't have SSB on my HD yet, so no example of this library.
> PM me for a midi-file if you want!
> 
> I hope you'll enjoy the offered overview
> 
> 8DIO
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw8dio-mp3.17430/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> Orchestral Tools Brass
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw_ot-mp3.17431/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> Spitfire Symphonic Brass
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnw_ssb-mp3.17432/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> VSL Triple horn (x4)
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnwvsl_triplehorn-mp3.17433/][/AUDIOPLUS]
> 
> VSL Dimension Brass Synchronized
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/herrmannnbnwvsldb_synchr-mp3.17435/][/AUDIOPLUS]




So after all these years, hate to say, I am still Spitfire hater it seems, their brass sounds absolutely worst from all the examples.


----------



## jbuhler

jbuhler said:


> I had some foibles in the second trumpet that seemed related to the vibrato. But I did not encounter the issues you documented. Maybe it was luck. I can't say yet, as I haven't been at my rig to test your exact examples.


I can confirm that per @re-peat's example, trumpet 2 does not especially like to play major sevenths legato and several of them are very bad.


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## paulthomson

I'm not going to get drawn into creating more little demos to counter what Piet is saying here, as I did before. I'll simply observe that its actually pretty easy to make any sample library sound bad. You find an element that you can expose, say thats quickly moving the modwheel between certain values, and then you just ride that to make it sound as bad as possible. This is clear in the screenshot posted what is going on.

I own quite a few of the other devs libraries for my own interest - theres great stuff in all of them. However I could easily make some examples of them sounding awful. Why would I do that though? It would be incredibly unfair and unrepresentative, and I have a lot of respect for any dev who goes through the incredible amount of hard work to get a product of such complexity across the finish line. 

Its a fact that Christian and I are massively involved in the creation of our products. Its a fact that they come out - thanks to a large team of very talented programmers and QA who are all also musicians - with way fewer bugs than they used to when we were a handful of people. We're always aiming of course for zero, but its complex software, and anyone involved in this knows how hard it is to catch everything. We still put out tons of updates and constantly work to improve our products.

Its a shame that so many devs have left VIC. I loved this place before I was a dev, I still enjoy coming here and following whats going on, but its so hard reading stuff presented as fact that is either unfair or simply untrue. I actually spent a week editing and refining stuff for the Ambient Guitars release only a few weeks ago. And yes - I'm not doing this *most* of the time, as I have a ton of other responsibilities, but I still get my hands dirty in all kinds of ways. I love making samples as much as I love making music. I'm not sitting in the clubhouse on the 19th hole drinking gin and tonic.

A key point - I'm still a totally passionate end user of our products, as is Christian. Thats how we started, and thats how it still is. We have really talented people working with us who have undoubtedly helped us up our game across the board. 

There is a cognitive dissonance though when you on the one hand get fantastic feedback from triple A list record producers and composers, through to students and keen hobbyists who purely write for pleasure - and then you read that your products are 'absolute utter crap' - believe me I could take the King James cello and make it sound crap. Doesn't mean that the lucky cellist who currently plays it can't make it sound utterly divine!

I'm also absolutely passionate about music education and opportunity for people of all ages to discover music, performing and composing, and so I spend some of my time on that side at the moment. 

Not really sure what I hope to achieve by posting this message, probably nothing. I have no desire to muzzle anyone. People have different tastes, and will like the sound of different things, I have absolutely no issue with that. I struggle with misrepresentation and confident announcements of 'fact' that bear no relation to reality. 

One thing is for sure. When someone uses one of our products, they are using something that has been lovingly nursed into existence with care and attention and a ton of work by a team of really talented people who work hard to make the products as good as they can. We often bin stuff that isn't up to our standards. We also have a fantastic and dedicated support team that you can communicate with who are a key part of us refining and making our products better, so please do talk with them. It really helps us, which helps you.

I joined VI-C in October 2005. Thats nearly 14 years ago! nuts. Still can't quite manage to tear myself away - and why should I have to? Theres a lot to love about a community of passionate music makers who are also massive geeks like me. I just need to learn the skill of selective reading 

Peace out

P


----------



## paulthomson

And I know I wasn't going to do this lol

but here you go.... another noodle super quick with no editing

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbjbjm5712vobl9/Tpt1.wav?dl=0


----------



## Parsifal666

paulthomson said:


> And I know I wasn't going to do this lol
> 
> but here you go.... another noodle super quick with no editing
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbjbjm5712vobl9/Tpt1.wav?dl=0



NICE! Closer to picking this up, I only worry I might have to wait on the Pro upgrade.


----------



## Garry

Urgh... another pointless anti-Spitfire thread, destined for the drama zone.

6 Spitfire libraries in, and I'm yet to be disappointed. All excellent quality, all great value.

If I ever have a problem, I go to the Helpdesk, and have never found a group more responsive and helpful, in any industry. Example: I had a problem with loading/saving the ostinatum - contacted the help desk, who were incredibly helpful, and did a ton of things to try to fix it, over a long period; when they were eventually unable to resolve it, they also contacted NI to see if it was a Kontakt issue; then I was passed on to another Spitfire support guy while he went on vacation so that I wouldn't have to start again from scratch; first guy then continued where he left off when he go back from vacation, following up to see how things were without my asking. Eventually, I resolved that it was a weird problem on my computer, nothing to do with Spitfire's software, after which it worked perfectly. The support desk were just glad it was resolved, and not a hint of a snarky, 'we knew it wasn't our fault'. Just glad to help.

Bleating about issues on forums before fully checking out the problem and whether it can be fixed doesn't help anyone. Getting the support you need first, and then posting here to say how you resolved the problem does help others and would be far preferable. If you get poor support, post that too - but in my experience, I doubt you'll get that from Spitfire. But the endless, mindless speculation and negative comments does nothing to help anyone, and just drives away yet another developer, and in this case, I think a developer who demonstrably does FAR more than any other to generate and support a community: LABS, PianoBook, monthly journal, quick tips, creative cribs, charity donations; educational discounts, composer interviews, and many others. This is not a company here to rip you off. It's a company that loves what they do, uses themselves the tools they make, and wants to make the best product they can for a community they feel part of. We as the community have 2 options: we can recognize this, and deal with genuine feedback responsibly in the hope of mutual benefit, or we can childishly score points on an anonymous forum. It's a choice guys, but collectively, these choices have consequences.

I've been down the rabbit hole of getting involved in discussions like this before, and not wanting to go that route again, this will be my only contribution.

But from my perspective, and I'm sure many others, as a parting comment, I'd like to say thank you to @paulthomson, thank you @christianhenson and thank you @Spitfire Team and @SpitfireSupport. Your products have greatly enriched my life. I came into this hobby largely because of your products, and I continue to get many hours of enjoyment through using them, and learning about the craft through the support you generously freely provide.


----------



## Zero&One

Calling it a "pointless anti-Spitfire thread, destined for the drama zone" when several people (myself included) have bought libraries from this thread is... well drama.

Users asked an opinion and got them. Some they liked, some they didn't. They asked.
They were backed up with examples and detailed descriptions from both sides of the fence.
They detailed the bug reports submitted etc etc.

I'm getting the feeling on here that users can't be disappointed with a purchase if the 'majority' either don't reply or agree? Otherwise it's an attack, moan or drama. If that's the case... I'm out.


----------



## Parsifal666

James H said:


> Calling it a "pointless anti-Spitfire thread, destined for the drama zone" when several people (myself included) have bought libraries from this thread is... well drama.
> 
> Users asked an opinion and got them. Some they liked, some they didn't. They asked.
> They were backed up with examples and detailed descriptions from both sides of the fence.
> They detailed the bug reports submitted etc etc.
> 
> I'm getting the feeling on here that users can't be disappointed with a purchase if the 'majority' either don't reply or agree? Otherwise it's an attack, moan or drama. If that's the case... I'm out.



My ears were by far the biggest variable in purchasing the Studio Professional. And I was right, it's an excellent library and has provided me with enough inspiration to finish a piece 24 hours after purchasing it. And now I'm starting a whole 'nother piece with woodwind choir and celesta.

I can think of few things (beyond audio of course) that can vouch better for a library than a member's avowal of massive inspiration from that library. At least, for me it would be a great impetus. But hey, à chacun ses goûts.


----------



## Zero&One

Parsifal666 said:


> I can think of few things (beyond audio of course) that can vouch better for a library than a member's avowal of massive inspiration from that library. At least, for me it would be a great impetus. But hey,
> à chacun ses goûts.



I had to "search with Google" on the last part 
+1 though


----------



## AllanH

After a few hours of playing with Studio Brass Pro I'm generally pleased. Especially at the lower/lowest dynamic layer the sampling and instruments are simply stunning. I find the vast majority sounding musical, very easy to play, and beautifully recorded. The high/highest dynamic layer is generally quite fizzy so this is probably what was intended (it makes the highest dynamic layer sound a bit thin)

I found several jarring transitions between dynamic layers (I think that's what I hear) and some legato transitions that are bit suspect. At the same time, as legato generally requires valve changes and "lack of tonguing", there will be what initially may sound as artifacts but is in fact exactly what you would expect. I found several of those and it made me smile.

Interestingly, I found that the shorts require a fair bit of velocity to get to the highest dynamic layer. The programming seemed different from what was expecting, but as this is my first dedicated Spitfire brass library maybe this is how they program them.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

paulthomson said:


> Its a shame that so many devs have left VIC. I loved this place before I was a dev, I still enjoy coming here and following whats going on


It means a lot that you're still around Paul.


----------



## Parsifal666

Land of Missing Parts said:


> It means a lot that you're still around Paul.



Oh man, just checked out the Black Beauty and _*excellent!*_


----------



## Lode_Runner

Paul Cardon said:


> So many devs rightfully scared away from this place.


This statement gets trotted out a lot as a truism (not saying from you personally, Paul Thompson just said it as well and usually it's Ashermusic saying it, although he's still around even if he's no longer technically EastWestLurker). It's always surprising to me as I find VIC far more civil than KVR or GearSlutz. Aside from 8Dio and partially Spitfire I'm not sure which other devs have been scared away. May I please ask who else?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Lode_Runner said:


> Aside from 8Dio and partially Spitfire I'm not sure which other devs have been scared away. May I please ask who else?


Cinesamples, EastWest.

I think a lot about the idea of vulnerability these days. The more you create things and present them to others, the less harsh you tend to be on other's creations.

Every one of us who composes has been through the crucible of presenting your music to others. No matter who you are, how tough you like to talk, every one of us is _truly_ vulnerable in that moment. It's universal. 

I think it behooves us to remember that when we post our critiques of others. Not that we shouldn't be critical, but that we shouldn't be _cynical_.


----------



## erica-grace

Garry said:


> Urgh... another pointless anti-Spitfire thread, destined for the drama zone.



This thread is not pointless, and absolutely NOT anti-Spitfire. Just because some people say they don't like certain aspects of an instrument - and show the issues, does not make it anti-developer.


----------



## erica-grace

Paul Cardon said:


> So many devs rightfully scared away from this place.



Rightfully? Why - because they don't like hearing people point out problems with their libraries?


----------



## dzilizzi

erica-grace said:


> This thread is not pointless, and absolutely NOT anti-Spitfire. Just because some people say they don't like certain aspects of an instrument - and show the issues, does not make it anti-developer.


I think it is the part where they were saying Spitfire's quality has gone downhill. The discussion about whether or not the library sounds good is one thing because it is a personal preference to sound. But it then goes from I don't like the sound of this library to Spitfire doesn't make anything good anymore and quality is bad. This is the part that is wrong. Many people love this library. 

And if we didn't attack people for having an opinion we disagree with, it probably wouldn't get to that point. But that is my opinion. The discussion was very civil for the most part. I've seen worse.


----------



## jbuhler

AllanH said:


> Interestingly, I found that the shorts require a fair bit of velocity to get to the highest dynamic layer. The programming seemed different from what was expecting, but as this is my first dedicated Spitfire brass library maybe this is how they program them


The programming on the shorts in particular does differ from SSB.


----------



## Lode_Runner

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Cinesamples, EastWest.


Thanks Land of Missing Parts. I'm not sure about EastWest. Their presence was EastWestLurker and he didn't really leave VIC, he just left EastWest and became Ashermusic. Shame to hear about Cinesamples, yes it appears they haven't posted since 2017. I wonder why they left?


----------



## AllanH

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Cinesamples, EastWest.
> 
> ...
> Every one of us who composes has been through the crucible of presenting your music to others. No matter who you are, how tough you like to talk, every one of us is _truly_ vulnerable in that moment. It's universal.


I was about to post something similar, but @Land of Missing Parts captured the point I was going to make very well.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

erica-grace said:


> Rightfully? Why - because they don't like hearing people point out problems with their libraries?


Not all feedback is the same. You compose music, and eventually have to submit it to the judgement of others, right? Think about the range of comments you've received and how some are useful and others are outright bruising, personal, or counterproductive. How many times would you be okay with someone on a particular project directing the phrase "so-called professional" toward you in their feedback?


----------



## AllanH

jbuhler said:


> The programming on the shorts in particular does differ from SSB.



Thank you for confirming with SSB. I went back to my Albions and can definitely feel a difference.


----------



## paulthomson

Hey Allan,

They tend to be programmed to suit the dynamic of the room so they will vary slightly - but if you want to replace the curve you can here:

P


----------



## dzilizzi

Lode_Runner said:


> Thanks Land of Missing Parts. I'm not sure about EastWest. Their presence was EastWestLurker and he didn't really leave VIC, he just left EastWest and became Ashermusic. Shame to hear about Cinesamples, yes it appears they haven't posted since 2017. I wonder why they left?


Nick Phoenix shows up every so often. Maybe he's the one that mostly left?


----------



## sostenuto

> ="paulthomson, post: 4384655, member: 20262"]Hey Allan,
> 
> They tend to be programmed to suit the dynamic of the room so they will vary slightly - but if you want to replace the curve you can here:
> 
> P



Thank-you for this follow-thru. Quite pleased and impressed with your earlier personal statement. It is well done, and key to personal WL decision process over next few days.  

You are far more involved, as a professional, than I as a serious home-studio enthusiast, musician. Many years on Reaper Forum have exposed some similar 'excesses' as noted here.
To each his /her own style, but a shame when discussion departs from honest, capable critique of library capabilities. Such enormous talents present here and so much to be gained from your /their regular contributions.

Looking forward to more of your presence, when other responsibilities subside. 
​


----------



## Parsifal666

I'm really liking the tuba and horns here. This would be a steal at the price imo... I am beginning to crumple in the face of the audio, really impressive imo.


----------



## jbuhler

AllanH said:


> After a few hours of playing with Studio Brass Pro I'm generally pleased. Especially at the lower/lowest dynamic layer the sampling and instruments are simply stunning.


I agree that the lowest dynamic layer of the legatos is pretty good on most instruments (horn 1 remains a problem—even when it doesn't sound bad, it doesn't sound like a horn to me). The higher dynamic layers are often good as well, but the layer transitions can be quite bumpy. As @paulthomson's example shows, even the very bumpy one on Trumpet 1 can be neatly finessed if you play with an understanding of how the patch is constructed, and there are two trumpet legato patches so what doesn't work on one, will likely work on the other. E.g., if you need to write a lot of major sevenths, probably try trumpet 1. 

Despite saying that the lowest dynamic layer on the legatos sounds good, I wouldn't say the ensemble has a great sound in the softest dynamic layer on the open longs, however. For one thing, it lacks that velvety sound that I associate with soft brass. For another the longs (as compared to the legatos) don't generally have as much space to work with on the modwheel before it gets rather brassy. Sometimes that's a nice effect—swelling into brassiness—but I find working gentle swells to be a bit harder to produce than they should be because the modwheel range of the lower dynamic layer is so limited. It's another case where if I end up using the library a lot for this kind of thing I'll need to make an alternate patch that expands the modwheel range of the lower dynamic layer.

I haven't decided what I think of the calibration of the shorts. They sound ok in an initial quick listen but are rather soft throughout the range and I have to move the volume quite a lot to get them to balance with my other libraries. I may have to recalibrate with a custom curve.

Some other things I like about the library: the muted patches. The muted and stopped longs sound nice and are rather different from those in SSB, so they make a good complement. Studio Brass also has a bunch of other muted articulations including shorts, sfz long, etc. One of the real incentives for me in getting this library (as a supplement to SSB) was all the muted articulations, which are lacking in SSB. (I would still be most interested in a mute supplement to SSB similar to Berlin Brass EXP B.) 

I also quite like the euphonium, especially in the upper register, and this was another draw for me as a supplement to SSB. I haven't yet played extensively with it, so there may be hidden issues but on initial listen it seems a winner. The tenor trombones have what I'd call a lighter but more trombony edge than the more regal sounding trombones in SSB. It makes for an interesting contrast playing something like the Pilgrim's chorus passage in Tannhäuser Overture with Studio Brass and SSB. Very different performances, but each compelling in its own way. I'll be interested to see how the Studio Brass trombones work in context. 

I haven't yet got through the tubas, cimbasso, bass trombone or auxiliary trumpets. I also haven't worked much on the mixing end, but initial experiments suggest that they will take quite a bit more work to fit with the SF libraries recorded in the big hall than some of the other SF libraries recorded in Air One.


----------



## re-peat

Paul,

You don't seriously think that I buy libraries, Spitfire's or others, to then come here at VI-C, or anywhere else, and waste countless hours of everybody's time (as well as my own) knowingly misrepresenting these products by making them sound as bad as I possible can, only because I stumbled upon a few flaws? What could possibly be my reasoning for doing such a stupid and nasty thing? I mean, even if I'm right about it, it's still a very unkind and dishonourable thing to do, I find, and if I'm wrong, the whole thing would blow up in my face and my days as someone I quite enjoy being would be instantly over. As I answered in another thread (after someone else threw that same inane accusation at me): what you suggest, that is not who I am. And you, I would have hoped, should know that.

No, what actually happens is, that I come across these flaws when_ trying to make music with these libraries_. It really is as simple and innocent as that. And in the case of the Studio Series, I have come across so many so frequently — and several of them demonstrating such baffling carelessness, sloppyness and cutting-corners-y-ness —, that I eventually decided to share my mounting disappointment with the multitude. One of the reasons I didn't contact Support first, is because I'm of the opinion that these libraries are unfixable. Well, some of it is, of course, but not its worst weaknesses. If I had any say in the matter, the Studio Series threesome would be recalled and completely redone from scratch. The other reason was that I felt the insult was too grave to remain private.

Making so much heavy weather in public about a library is very uncharacterstic for me though. I’m not averse to causing a bit of a stir now and then if there’s good reason, but libraries with a few flaws in them don’t qualify as good reason. I positively dislike it when someone else complains excessively, and I sure as hell don't like it when I have to do it myself. The aggrevation, the upset, the irritation (on both sides of the fence), the whining and the ranting, the time lost, ... No, thank you. I say all this because it means that a product has to be really-really-really bad, in my opinion and experience, before I will do what I've been doing these past couple of weeks in the context of the Studio Series: exposing it for the effrontery that I believe it is.

Been buying huge quantities of sample libraries, of all shapes and sizes, for 20 years or more, most of which are liberally infested with short-comings, annoyances and bugs, and in all my time at VI-C — that's also more than 15 years by now — I've only railed against products 4 times with the same unpleasant intensity as I now muster to rail against the Studio Series. (I can name you the occasions, but I think you know already what some of them are, and then you also know that you're in pretty lousy company here: the worst of the worst, two developers excepted.)

You don't have to tell me that all libraries are imperfect and that they all can be made to sound bad. I know. I’ve known for more than 20 years. And the thing is: in 99% of the cases, I don't mind. I really don't. I understand. I accept. And I'm prepared for it anyway. I've learned to solve problems and find work-arounds for whatever problem a library throws at me ever since the days, late 90's, of Advanced Orchestra, the EMU Proteus-libraries and Vitous' first libraries. I actually like the challenge, believe it or not. And I'm pretty good at it too.

But the Studio Series, I fear, cross a line where that pleasant game of challenges and clever work-arounds no longer applies. It's the line beyond which decency, integrity, pride and respect have made way for complacency, cheapness, arrogance and disdain. A line which I always believed Spitfire — a company, and people, for which and for whom I used to have immense respect, affection even, and near endless loyalty (there's still a lot of it left, but it is dwindling) — would never cross. But it appears I was a little naïve.

See, as much as I am annoyed by the Studio Series' problems, it's the philosphy and the attitude behind it, that annoys and worries me much more.

Spitfire gave us Sable, the Bespokes and a handful of truly excellent BML libraries, for christ’s sake; an amazing run of unrivalled products which are, as I described them elsewhere, wither-proof classics and summits of the art and craft of orchestral sampling. To hear you now defending — with rather unconvincing, generic stock arguments and that inevitable hint of emotional appeal — the painfully embarrassing Studio Series, as if belonging in the same illustre league as Spitfire’s triumphs of yesteryear, is not only a perplexingly surreal experience but, more than that, a very, very sad one. It doesn't bode well for the future, if you don't mind me saying so.

The Paul Thompson I communicated with some years ago would NEVER have agreed on the release of the Studio Series. “No way!”, his cry would have been heard saying as it thundered through Spitfire’s corridors, studios, editing rooms and car parks. I will never forget — seriously — your rapture, and the underlying passion which it showed, when you described to me the first time you and Christian heard Sable come out of the speakers; a sound, you told me, you guys had been been waiting for for 20 years, and what a glorious moment that was. The excitement dripped from your every word in that mail. That moment, to me, encapsulated everything that Spitfire is, or at least used to be, about. (I’m aware I have no business telling all these things and according so much weight to the past, but I do because I was so impressed by it, and also because this whole discussion is so important to me.)

I can’t imagine anyone at Spitfire ever sharing, like you did when Sable was born, his or her excitement upon first hearing the Studio Series ooze limply out of the speakers. Not if they’re honest. These are weak libraries, Paul. 'Utter crap', I agree, was an uncalled-for exaggeration on my part, but it was the somewhat tense discussion of yesterday that made me write that. I apologize for it. But that is the *only* thing I apologize for. I resolutely and unwaveringly stand by everything else I've written and by every second of the audio examples I posted. Please, take it seriously.

With still a lot of love and undiminished gratitude: all the best to you, Christian and everyone at Spitfire.

_


----------



## Sean

jbuhler said:


> I agree that the lowest dynamic layer of the legatos is pretty good on most instruments (horn 1 remains a problem—even when it doesn't sound bad, it doesn't sound like a horn to me).
> ...
> I also quite like the euphonium, especially in the upper register, and this was another draw for me as a supplement to SSB.


Agreed the horn does not really sound like a horn to me (I still have yet to find anything that beats the horns in EW Hollywood Brass), but the euphonium sounds quite good.


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm really liking the tuba and horns here. This would be a steal at the price imo... I am beginning to crumple in the face of the audio, really impressive imo.


TBH, I find the horns to be the weakest instrument in this library by far. So if you like the horns, I'd say you will very much like the library as a whole. The non-legato horn patches are, however, much better than the legato patches. 

The bells up patches are suitably raucous, especially in the two solo horns. (I haven't yet done a side by side comparison of the bells up patches in SSB). I also like the very muffled sound of the stopped horns. The long sfz is nice both open and stopped.


----------



## ionian

It's kind of telling that Paul came here and tried to shift this around to how they're the victims because people are mean to them and criticize the work people there do, instead of trying to fix the problem and tightening up QC and policing the ideas there more to be on the level of their past quality. 

But then again this is the company that released the Hans Zimmer Piano and when there was a universal outcry about how substandard the quality of it was, Spitfire responded by disabling comments on the youtube video to silence the critics rather than attempt to fix what was wrong with it.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> TBH, I find the horns to be the weakest instrument in this library by far. So if you like the horns, I'd say you will very much like the library as a whole. The non-legato horn patches are, however, much better than the legato patches.
> 
> The bells up patches are suitably raucous, especially in the two solo horns. (I haven't yet done a side by side comparison of the bells up patches in SSB). I also like the very muffled sound of the stopped horns. The long sfz is nice both open and stopped.


You know, there is an earlier post that reminded me of how good that EWHB is. And it can be an eminently malleable, dry library. It has balls, but lower velocity dynamics can be quite pleasing there as well. In fact, I'm going to break out those horns and tubas today. A really good library.


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## Alex Fraser

ionian said:


> It's kind of telling that Paul came here and tried to shift this around to how they're the victims because people are mean to them and criticize the work people there do, instead of trying to fix the problem and tightening up QC and policing the ideas there more to be on the level of their past quality.


I think you're reaching there, sorry.
I believe Paul is genuine about his products and I believe re-peat is genuine in his beliefs. It's a difference of opinion, nothing more. I don't think it's helpful to start up a narrative where Spitfire is trying to protect it's interests like a slippery PR company. That'll send the thread downhill fast.

We have a healthy conversation going between the devs and users. Let's try to keep it that way!


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## StillLife

Alex Fraser said:


> Dd
> 
> I think you're reaching there, sorry.
> I believe Paul is genuine about his products and I believe re-peat is genuine in his beliefs. It's a difference of opinion, nothing more. I don't think it's helpful to start up a narrative where Spitfire is trying to protect it's interests like a slippery PR company. That'll send the thread downhill fast.


Absolutely agree.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Probably its simply that spitfire released too many libraries these days. I think it is better to release less but quality products which are total ironed out in design or at least a huge attempt towards this. I mean look at products from Wallbank. He didn´t released much but all he released was great stuff through the bank, or things from Jasper Blunk. Regarding the pure assessment of the studio series which piet did and I am very behind him as I think as well that the series could be much better in many points. And I tell you what: If Piet wouldn´t care for spitfire he wouldn´t do all that examples and comments. He has a big love for spitfire and it hurts him which I read out of his comments a lot, at least for me.


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## Land of Missing Parts

re-peat said:


> Making so much heavy weather in public about a library is very uncharacterstic for me though._


Piet, what brass and, for that matter, winds _don't_ you hate? Since at the end of the day, hating stuff doesn't get the music written.

In this post I believe you dismissed every woodwind library in existence, which is helpful info up to a point. But after all the judgement has been dispensed you still have to load something into your DAW.

EDIT: I came across a post where Piet actually _did_ name the brass he doesn't hate.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Piet, what brass and, for that matter, winds _don't_ you hate? Since at the end of the day, hating stuff doesn't get the music written.
> 
> In this post I believe you dismissed every woodwind library in existence, which is helpful info up to a point. But after all the judgement has been dispensed you still have to load something into your DAW.



Well I don´t think he hates it, does he?  Well, its dissapointment which speaks there, but hate...come one..I don´t think that this term serves quite accurate here..


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## Parsifal666

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well I don´t think he hates it, does he?  Well, its dissapointment which speaks there, but hate...come one..I don´t think that this term serves quite accurate here..


What are your thoughts on this library, Alexander? I ask because I value your opinion.


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## gussunkri

Because sample libraries do not have demos, my decisions are shaped by reviews, walkthroughs and forum posts to a much higher degree than with e.g. plug-ins. Luckily for Spitfire, the posts and examples that push me away from the studio series push me towards the symphonic range so in the end, Spitfire may make more money off of me because of Re-peat. (Paul sure could use the extra money. That new studio he is building looks expensive and FANTASTIC!)


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## Land of Missing Parts

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well I don´t think he hates it, does he?  Well, its dissapointment which speaks there, but hate...come one..I don´t think that this term serves quite accurate here..


Instead of "hate" let's say "strongly look down upon".

As in this post "[The] Virtual Woodwind Land, to me, is a dull, barren waste of musically unsatisfying and sonically inferior efforts that will compromise just about every phrase you give to them and every orchestration they’re part of."

He's no shrinking violet when it comes to judging harshly.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Parsifal666 said:


> What are your thoughts on this library, Alexander? I ask because I value your opinion.



Oh mate, my thoughts were very diverse tbh... I dont fire more heat into the thread, so I say something positive here: I liked or still like the Studio or room which SFA recorded their studio series. I am loving smaller venues which let you get a great direct and very clear sound which lets hear all the details in orchestration. I think also the slight vintage touch which the room gives to the woodwinds sound great.


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## handz

Lode_Runner said:


> Thanks Land of Missing Parts. I'm not sure about EastWest. Their presence was EastWestLurker and he didn't really leave VIC, he just left EastWest and became Ashermusic. Shame to hear about Cinesamples, yes it appears they haven't posted since 2017. I wonder why they left?


Would like to know too, their libraries were usually very well received here and the guys from the Cinesamples were always cool.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Instead of "hate" let's say "strongly look down upon".
> 
> As in this post "[The] Virtual Woodwind Land, to me, is a dull, barren waste of musically unsatisfying and sonically inferior efforts that will compromise just about every phrase you give to them and every orchestration they’re part of."



Yes, I read that post :D And I can understand that this might sound a bit bitter. You know..not to make the same quote..but whenever I write my music or mockup things from repertoire I feel so much the same, you know. But I tweak a lot, customize patches, work with scripts..and many many more things to have something which is going a bit more musical but its insane work..and it feels like that I say: Oh man..I wish the developers would do that and this..you know..they record for instance like gazillions of short articulations but often like 1-2 like longs..or legato..the intervalls don´t correspond to quiter dynamics..and then you hear how bumpy the shit starts to sound..then you have to draw lines and do alter attack times, and man I get headdache..often. or you start to do other weird things.. of desperation, just to create one very simple expressive "musical line with intention". But..one thing: I am still very grateful for all the tools that we have these days. I don´t want to complain too much. Because in one point I totally disagree with Piet: We are way behind the 90s sample library sounds though I guess it was a hyperbole occuring out of frustration..


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## Lcas

Alright, I am good with studio brass, going to take the shallow-end plunge for pro. If I was more sure of myself and whether I could live with core for a few months, I would have taken the issues re-peat provided, along with the information I was here for about reverb, and known it is just how things work.

I feel a little silly for bumping this, the bit of drama it led to, getting scared off the library altogether, and now changing my mind again. Regardless of my decision, thanks for helping re-peat.

Not my place to say as a newcomer, and it's way late besides, but we should just be nicer. Don't hold back critique but maybe avoid complete condemnation. It is a part of the internet unfortunately where we forget real people and livelihoods are behind things.

And why Spitfire Studio Brass Pro and not CSB or something else? Too many instruments and articulations for less money than anything else. The really helpful and interesting videos Spitfire puts on YouTube doesn't hurt my preference either.


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## paulthomson

All the best to you as well Piet, we can't all agree on everything. I do seem to remember you describing our musicians in 2013 as an "unenthusiastic, uninterested, untalented, undisciplined high-school band" so I guess these feelings from you do come and go! 

Probably a more measured conclusion would be that everyone doesn't like everything, and thats ok.

Peace


----------



## jbuhler

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Probably its simply that spitfire released too many libraries these days. I think it is better to release less but quality products which are total ironed out in design or at least a huge attempt towards this. I mean look at products from Wallbank. He didn´t released much but all he released was great stuff through the bank, or things from Jasper Blunk. Regarding the pure assessment of the studio series which piet did and I am very behind him as I think as well that the series could be much better in many points. And I tell you what: If Piet wouldn´t care for spitfire he wouldn´t do all that examples and comments. He has a high love for spitfire and it hurts him which I read out of his comments a lot, at least for me.


Isn't the underlying "problem," the size of the company and the need to shift to a larger customer base? SF needs all the libraries to provide the income to keep the lights on, meet payroll, etc. Maintenance and support earn them nothing except goodwill that will keep us buying their libraries, but if they are not producing more libraries then support earns them... They could sell fewer libraries at higher prices, but that would likely decrease revenues rather substantially, since far fewer of us could afford them, and the firm would almost certainly need to be smaller and Paul and Christian would need to be more heavily involved (and probably give up aspirations to do anything but SF).

Personally, I think the concerns expressed about the situation are valid. The business end is putting pressures on the quality of the libraries (this has always been to some extent true). The market is putting a lot of pressure on the libraries to hit certain price points, and the larger market SF needs to reach to remain viable is much more sensitive to price points than the market they were aiming with when they started out. No doubt that change also affects the response of some. 

I just don't think the situation is all that dire, and I see many advantages to the lower prices, far wider access, and just the general democratization of the process. Is there a danger of a race to the bottom? Yes. Should we continue to be honest about shortcomings in libraries? Definitely. Should we work to demonstrate how the libraries can be useful even with their shortcomings? I think so. Should we seek to assess libraries on the value they might bring at the cost of the library? Here again, I think this is useful information for those trying to make decisions about what to buy. Many are buying libraries with limited resources. And I think hyperbolically running down libraries confuses such buying decisions.

I'll add that SF's approach to marketing is also causing significant problems. HZ Strings, for instance, is a perfectly reasonable library if you think of it as "Dunkirk" Strings. But the marketing on the library isn't especially honest in that respect, and I understand completely why people felt they got a product that wasn't what was advertised (even if the demos make clear where the strengths of this library lie).

I think many of the issues of the Studio line likewise stem from SF marketing not fully acknowledging that these libraries are designed to be a comprehensive orchestra at a significantly lower price point than SSO, that is, as a kind of budget line of libraries rather than the luxury line. Then we could be discussing whether SF made reasonable choices for that audience. But here again, the marketing hasn't been particularly forthcoming about these aims (if these are indeed SF's aims—I've reverse engineered a kind of business plan that would make sense of the situation but it is all speculative). And I wonder how these libraries would have been received had SF been clear that they are aimed at the budget conscious composer or as a different entry point into the SF line than Albion One. Alternatively, they might have focused on the libraries as a way to add detail and more standard configurations to BHCT (though I'm not sure how well the Studio line would work for that, since I don't have BHCT).


----------



## Paul Cardon

jbuhler said:


> Isn't the underlying "problem," the size of the company and the need to shift to a larger customer base? SF needs all the libraries to provide the income to keep the lights on, meet payroll, etc. Maintenance and support earn them nothing except goodwill that will keep us buying their libraries, but if they are not producing more libraries then support earns them... They could sell fewer libraries at higher prices, but that would likely decrease revenues rather substantially, since far fewer of us could afford them, and the firm would almost certainly need to be smaller and Paul and Christian would need to be more heavily involved (and probably give up aspirations to do anything but SF).
> 
> Personally, I think the concerns expressed about the situation are valid. The business end is putting pressures on the quality of the libraries (this has always been to some extent true). The market is putting a lot of pressure on the libraries to hit certain price points, and the larger market SF needs to reach to remain viable is much more sensitive to price points than the market they were aiming with when they started out. No doubt that change also affects the response of some.
> 
> I just don't think the situation is all that dire, and I see many advantages to the lower prices, far wider access, and just the general democratization of the process. Is there a danger of a race to the bottom? Yes. Should we continue to be honest about shortcomings in libraries? Definitely. Should we work to demonstrate how the libraries can be useful even with their shortcomings? I think so. Should we seek to assess libraries on the value they might bring at the cost of the library? Here again, I think this is useful information for those trying to make decisions about what to buy. Many are buying libraries with limited resources. And I think hyperbolically running down libraries confuses such buying decisions.
> 
> I'll add that SF's approach to marketing is also causing significant problems. HZ Strings, for instance, is a perfectly reasonable library if you think of it as "Dunkirk" Strings. But the marketing on the library isn't especially honest in that respect, and I understand completely why people felt they got a product that wasn't what was advertised (even if the demos make clear where the strengths of this library lie).
> 
> I think many of the issues of the Studio line likewise stem from SF marketing not fully acknowledging that these libraries are designed to be a comprehensive orchestra at a significantly lower price point than SSO, that is, as a kind of budget line of libraries rather than the luxury line. Then we could be discussing whether SF made reasonable choices for that audience. But here again, the marketing hasn't been particularly forthcoming about these aims (if these are indeed SF's aims—I've reverse engineered a kind of business plan that would make sense of the situation but it is all speculative). And I wonder how these libraries would have been received had SF been clear that they are aimed at the budget conscious composer or as a different entry point into the SF line than Albion One. Alternatively, they might have focused on the libraries as a way to add detail and more standard configurations to BHCT (though I'm not sure how well the Studio line would work for that, since I don't have BHCT).


It seems a regular thing for Spitfire to make minimal effort to outline the specific purpose of their libraries, and I doubt that's by mistake.
First off, I REALLY doubt there was any intent for the Studio series to be a "budget library" when they thought it up. But regardless, it is priced lower and maybe that's something they thought about as the library came together.
From a sales perspective, sure, pigeon-holing an entire product line as a "budget library" immediately steers away a big chunk of the consumer base.
BUT from a potential use perspective, a library that could be very useful to non-budget-constrained users is suddenly unconsidered by them.
I'm personally finding tons of use out of the Studio line and I've got some other big libraries, options from other devs and Spitfire's Symphonic line.
I'm finding out what's useful in which context, what benefits from the sound of the series, how the unique performances of each patch can work to specific ends.

I think the thing that's getting to me: *this is the EXACT same process I approach every new library with. *With confidence, I have not felt this library comes across concludable "worse" than other Spitfire libraries. If anything, it's very different. I'm likely going to use a lot of these instruments and articulations over the next few years in different combinations with other libraries as things fit the project. Sure I've been spending a few weeks upfront using the libraries on their own, but that's never entirely realistic to how a lot of us work. Isn't that kind of the point of having more than one library anyway? Not to be able to "ignore" and toss away bad patches, but because most patches have strengths that shine in the right places?

Sure there are some libraries that I've almost completely thrown by the wayside because they just don't do a thing I'd like them to, but the Studio Series is hardly one of those on my end. I'm gonna be using these for at least a while.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> Isn't the underlying "problem," the size of the company and the need to shift to a larger customer base? SF needs all the libraries to provide the income to keep the lights on, meet payroll, etc. Maintenance and support earn them nothing except goodwill that will keep us buying their libraries, but if they are not producing more libraries then support earns them... They could sell fewer libraries at higher prices, but that would likely decrease revenues rather substantially, since far fewer of us could afford them, and the firm would almost certainly need to be smaller and Paul and Christian would need to be more heavily involved (and probably give up aspirations to do anything but SF).
> 
> Personally, I think the concerns expressed about the situation are valid. The business end is putting pressures on the quality of the libraries (this has always been to some extent true). The market is putting a lot of pressure on the libraries to hit certain price points, and the larger market SF needs to reach to remain viable is much more sensitive to price points than the market they were aiming with when they started out. No doubt that change also affects the response of some.
> 
> I just don't think the situation is all that dire, and I see many advantages to the lower prices, far wider access, and just the general democratization of the process. Is there a danger of a race to the bottom? Yes. Should we continue to be honest about shortcomings in libraries? Definitely. Should we work to demonstrate how the libraries can be useful even with their shortcomings? I think so. Should we seek to assess libraries on the value they might bring at the cost of the library? Here again, I think this is useful information for those trying to make decisions about what to buy. Many are buying libraries with limited resources. And I think hyperbolically running down libraries confuses such buying decisions.
> 
> I'll add that SF's approach to marketing is also causing significant problems. HZ Strings, for instance, is a perfectly reasonable library if you think of it as "Dunkirk" Strings. But the marketing on the library isn't especially honest in that respect, and I understand completely why people felt they got a product that wasn't what was advertised (even if the demos make clear where the strengths of this library lie).
> 
> I think many of the issues of the Studio line likewise stem from SF marketing not fully acknowledging that these libraries are designed to be a comprehensive orchestra at a significantly lower price point than SSO, that is, as a kind of budget line of libraries rather than the luxury line. Then we could be discussing whether SF made reasonable choices for that audience. But here again, the marketing hasn't been particularly forthcoming about these aims (if these are indeed SF's aims—I've reverse engineered a kind of business plan that would make sense of the situation but it is all speculative). And I wonder how these libraries would have been received had SF been clear that they are aimed at the budget conscious composer or as a different entry point into the SF line than Albion One. Alternatively, they might have focused on the libraries as a way to add detail and more standard configurations to BHCT (though I'm not sure how well the Studio line would work for that, since I don't have BHCT).



Well, some might say that argument would make BHCT a beginner's library (being that it's also a dry library). Or that dry libraries are beginner's libraries and I can't say that washes with me.

Libraries like Spitfire Symphonic series are far more out-of-the-package (Albion, too). That's one of the reasons they're great for beginner.

Dry libraries require more work, (including SSTO). One has to acquire at least a modicum of engineering skills to get them to fit into certain contexts. Granted, it's a great way for novices to learn the ropes in regard to really important skills...but beginners generally don't want that.

So, no the series in question isn't a beginner's libraries...though your argument is made well. I should mention, though I'm certainly a lower level composer than most here, I do get paid to make music, and I have friends whom also get paid and bought the Studio libs. 

I agree to disagree in regard to this point. I don't think SA misrepresented themselves in that way.


----------



## Paul Cardon

jbuhler said:


> Isn't the underlying "problem," the size of the company and the need to shift to a larger customer base? SF needs all the libraries to provide the income to keep the lights on, meet payroll, etc. Maintenance and support earn them nothing except goodwill that will keep us buying their libraries, but if they are not producing more libraries then support earns them... They could sell fewer libraries at higher prices, but that would likely decrease revenues rather substantially, since far fewer of us could afford them, and the firm would almost certainly need to be smaller and Paul and Christian would need to be more heavily involved (and probably give up aspirations to do anything but SF).
> 
> Personally, I think the concerns expressed about the situation are valid. The business end is putting pressures on the quality of the libraries (this has always been to some extent true). The market is putting a lot of pressure on the libraries to hit certain price points, and the larger market SF needs to reach to remain viable is much more sensitive to price points than the market they were aiming with when they started out. No doubt that change also affects the response of some.
> 
> I just don't think the situation is all that dire, and I see many advantages to the lower prices, far wider access, and just the general democratization of the process. Is there a danger of a race to the bottom? Yes. Should we continue to be honest about shortcomings in libraries? Definitely. Should we work to demonstrate how the libraries can be useful even with their shortcomings? I think so. Should we seek to assess libraries on the value they might bring at the cost of the library? Here again, I think this is useful information for those trying to make decisions about what to buy. Many are buying libraries with limited resources. And I think hyperbolically running down libraries confuses such buying decisions.
> 
> I'll add that SF's approach to marketing is also causing significant problems. HZ Strings, for instance, is a perfectly reasonable library if you think of it as "Dunkirk" Strings. But the marketing on the library isn't especially honest in that respect, and I understand completely why people felt they got a product that wasn't what was advertised (even if the demos make clear where the strengths of this library lie).
> 
> I think many of the issues of the Studio line likewise stem from SF marketing not fully acknowledging that these libraries are designed to be a comprehensive orchestra at a significantly lower price point than SSO, that is, as a kind of budget line of libraries rather than the luxury line. Then we could be discussing whether SF made reasonable choices for that audience. But here again, the marketing hasn't been particularly forthcoming about these aims (if these are indeed SF's aims—I've reverse engineered a kind of business plan that would make sense of the situation but it is all speculative). And I wonder how these libraries would have been received had SF been clear that they are aimed at the budget conscious composer or as a different entry point into the SF line than Albion One. Alternatively, they might have focused on the libraries as a way to add detail and more standard configurations to BHCT (though I'm not sure how well the Studio line would work for that, since I don't have BHCT).


There's... more employees, more musicians with ideas and concepts for projects and more energy and force to put them together. I assure you that most of their libraries are developed in parallel, and some of the smaller more unique libraries have very much seemed pet projects of new members of the crew. They aren't all spending a month or two recording and scripting entire libraries all at once to shoot em out the door as fast as possible.

They recorded all this stuff (Studio series and BHCT) 2-3 years ago. It's obviously been cooking for a while.


----------



## paulthomson

Paul Cardon said:


> There's... more employees, more musicians with ideas and concepts for projects and more energy and force to put them together. I assure you that most of their libraries are developed in parallel, and some of the smaller more unique libraries have very much seemed pet projects of new members of the crew. They aren't all spending a month or two recording and scripting entire libraries all at once to shoot em out the door as fast as possible.
> 
> They recorded all this stuff (Studio series and BHCT) 2-3 years ago. It's obviously been cooking for a while.



Very perceptive! This is all absolutely correct. In fact, we went back in several times to capture more stuff with the Studio range recordings. We've been working on it for a long time.


----------



## Paul Cardon

paulthomson said:


> Very perceptive! This is all absolutely correct. In fact, we went back in several times to capture more stuff with the Studio range recordings. We've been working on it for a long time.


Very cool! Caught some it in the manuals, mentions of the projects starting a couple years ago. Plus recorded in the same space, Simon Rhodes being on both of them. Makes sense that they all come from the same starting point.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

jbuhler said:


> Isn't the underlying "problem," the size of the company and the need to shift to a larger customer base? SF needs all the libraries to provide the income to keep the lights on, meet payroll, etc. Maintenance and support earn them nothing except goodwill that will keep us buying their libraries, but if they are not producing more libraries then support earns them... They could sell fewer libraries at higher prices, but that would likely decrease revenues rather substantially, since far fewer of us could afford them, and the firm would almost certainly need to be smaller and Paul and Christian would need to be more heavily involved (and probably give up aspirations to do anything but SF).
> 
> Personally, I think the concerns expressed about the situation are valid. The business end is putting pressures on the quality of the libraries (this has always been to some extent true). The market is putting a lot of pressure on the libraries to hit certain price points, and the larger market SF needs to reach to remain viable is much more sensitive to price points than the market they were aiming with when they started out. No doubt that change also affects the response of some.
> 
> I just don't think the situation is all that dire, and I see many advantages to the lower prices, far wider access, and just the general democratization of the process. Is there a danger of a race to the bottom? Yes. Should we continue to be honest about shortcomings in libraries? Definitely. Should we work to demonstrate how the libraries can be useful even with their shortcomings? I think so. Should we seek to assess libraries on the value they might bring at the cost of the library? Here again, I think this is useful information for those trying to make decisions about what to buy. Many are buying libraries with limited resources. And I think hyperbolically running down libraries confuses such buying decisions.
> 
> I'll add that SF's approach to marketing is also causing significant problems. HZ Strings, for instance, is a perfectly reasonable library if you think of it as "Dunkirk" Strings. But the marketing on the library isn't especially honest in that respect, and I understand completely why people felt they got a product that wasn't what was advertised (even if the demos make clear where the strengths of this library lie).
> 
> I think many of the issues of the Studio line likewise stem from SF marketing not fully acknowledging that these libraries are designed to be a comprehensive orchestra at a significantly lower price point than SSO, that is, as a kind of budget line of libraries rather than the luxury line. Then we could be discussing whether SF made reasonable choices for that audience. But here again, the marketing hasn't been particularly forthcoming about these aims (if these are indeed SF's aims—I've reverse engineered a kind of business plan that would make sense of the situation but it is all speculative). And I wonder how these libraries would have been received had SF been clear that they are aimed at the budget conscious composer or as a different entry point into the SF line than Albion One. Alternatively, they might have focused on the libraries as a way to add detail and more standard configurations to BHCT (though I'm not sure how well the Studio line would work for that, since I don't have BHCT).



Yes all good points, and they are priced for lets say "old" SFA standards very low, which is on the one side great that it gives also hobbyists the opportunity to make music with orchestral libraries.(so more are buying it).
And the market is very competitive these days. Just for my personal taste, I would love to spent more bucks than just lets say on 200 dollars on something half baked (not speaking in general). Thats also the reason why I never felt complaining too much about expensive libraries from OT. I felt SFA is on a thin line sacrificing their exclusivness factor which was back then such a big and important factor combined with stellar libraries. However..it seems the studio series is a double edged sword here.


----------



## Matt Riley

I have the pro version of the Studio Orchestra. I just finished a symphonic band demo using the wind and brass. I found some of the patches lacking and some were fine. When I had issues with a patch, I would tweak it, or replace it with Berlin Woodwinds or Hollywood Brass patches. If I didn’t have those other libraries, I would have been hurting a bit. I think it is an okay library – not great and not bad either. I will say that I wish I hadn’t spent so much money on the collection now that I know the quality of the patches. I jumped on the intro price which was about $950. This is at least $300 too much in my opinion.


----------



## Paul Cardon

paulthomson said:


> And I know I wasn't going to do this lol
> 
> but here you go.... another noodle super quick with no editing
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbjbjm5712vobl9/Tpt1.wav?dl=0


I'll make one more point here. Even if the recorded performances and scripting is a bit limited, know that the sound of a smaller studio is a HUGE part of the perception. For example, here's PT's WAV put through a bit of EQ and two reverbs from Spaces II (EW Studio 1 and Reynold's Hall with the decay brought down to 75%).


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> Well, some might say that argument would make BHCT a beginner's library (being that it's also a dry library). Or that dry libraries are beginner's libraries and I can't say that washes with me.


Sorry, I wasn't clear. My point was that one approach marketing might have taken is that this is an introductory line of products. Another completely different approach they might have taken is that this extends BHCT in a similar way that SSO can be thought to extend and bring detail to Albion (that's how the relation of Albion and BML was originally explained to me by SF). That would not have required the "budget" line of marketing and indeed would have largely precluded it, appealing to just a "different," drier line, somewhat like they are doing now but centering BHCT. Personally, I have always seen BHCT as an alternative approach to Albion One. (I would definitely have bought BHCT instead of Albion One if I'd had the choice when I started buying VIs.) But I don't have BHCT and am only assessing it from the outside (admittedly, always a danger). The question is how well does the Studio line, as it is now constituted, extend BHCT? You are now be in an excellent position to answer that.

What makes no sense to me is a dry library priced far under a wet library and expecting they will not fundamentally differ otherwise—am I really paying that additional money just for the sound of the big Hall? Why would anyone then buy SSO at that price differential? This was the business calculation SF had to face when they started the project and again when they finally had to put it to market.

To me Studio Brass feels budget. In saying that, I don't think it's a bad library at all—indeed, on the contrary, it has a lot of very good, even excellent things in it and I'm quite happy with it for why I got it. The price was certainly great. I'll add that to me budget doesn't mean bad or even inadequate; it means something closer to a focus on the utilitarian side, on what I think Christian Henson calls the "Minimal Viable Product." Indeed, budget lines can be most excellent! But Studio Brass does not seem as deeply sampled as SSB and the transitions between dynamic layers are much bumpier pretty much across the board (which are probably reasons it is less costly). In my rudimentary exploration of the library (this is only the third day I have had it), I have also encountered limitations much more frequently than with SSB and so I know I will have to devise workarounds much more frequently when using the library. If this was my main brass library, it would take me longer to get things to sound credible with this library than it would with SSB. For me this is to be expected, given that it is so much less expensive than SSB. But seeing the reaction here: I see why SF marketing department did what they did and I'll add that I now believe they were absolutely correct to do so.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear. My point was that one approach marketing might have taken is that this is an introductory line of products. Another completely different approach they might have taken is that this extends BHCT in a similar way that SSO can be thought to extend and bring detail to Albion (that's how the relation of Albion and BML was originally explained to me by SF). That would not have required the "budget" line of marketing and indeed would have largely precluded it, appealing to just a "different," drier line, somewhat like they are doing now but centering BHCT. Personally, I have always seen BHCT as an alternative approach to Albion One. (I would definitely have bought BHCT instead of Albion One if I'd had the choice when I started buying VIs.) But I don't have BHCT and am only assessing it from the outside (admittedly, always a danger). The question is how well does the Studio line, as it is now constituted, extend BHCT? You are now be in an excellent position to answer that.
> 
> What makes no sense to me is a dry library priced far under a wet library and expecting they will not fundamentally differ otherwise—am I really paying that additional money just for the sound of the big Hall? Why would anyone then buy SSO at that price differential? This was the business calculation SF had to face when they started the project and again when they finally had to put it to market.
> 
> To me Studio Brass feels budget. In saying that, I don't think it's a bad library at all—indeed, on the contrary, it has a lot of very good, even excellent things in it and I'm quite happy with it for why I got it. The price was certainly great. I'll add that to me budget doesn't mean bad or even inadequate; it means something closer to a focus on the utilitarian side, on what I think Christian Henson calls the "Minimal Viable Product." Indeed, budget lines can be most excellent! But Studio Brass does not seem as deeply sampled as SSB and the transitions between dynamic layers are much bumpier pretty much across the board (which are probably reasons it is less costly). In my rudimentary exploration of the library (this is only the third day I have had it), I have also encountered limitations much more frequently than with SSB and so I know I will have to devise workarounds much more frequently when using the library. If this was my main brass library, it would take me longer to get things to sound credible with this library than it would with SSB. For me this is to be expected, given that it is so much less expensive than SSB. But seeing the reaction here: I see why SF marketing department did what they did and I'll add that I now believe they were absolutely correct to do so.



Alrighty, I think I getcha now. And btw don't hesitate on BHCT; I would have bought it WAAAY before Albion One myself had it existed. It is my favorite library, full stop.

I'm going to stick with my EWH Brass, in part because of what you've (and to a degree others) have written and carefully backed up. I really like the sound of SStB, so this is a going a bit against my gut, however I rediscovered and fell back in love with EWH brass today, so the GAS won't be too bad.

I'm very grateful for the help, my friend. I'll try to do something similar for you in the future.

AD ASTRA!


----------



## Garry

I wonder if one of the lessons here is that, it may be advisable for Developers to avoid engaging directly on this kind of detailed feedback, however well intentioned, and will likely instead need to leave this to the support staff they employ and train to engage with customers' feedback. In an ideal world, this forum would be a perfect vehicle for direct exchange of views between customer and developer. But in the real world, if we try to see this from both sides, for the customer who feels aggrieved (rightly or wrongly), buoyed by the anonymity of the interaction (in some, not all cases) this is an opportunity to publicly demand answers/remedies/apologies directly from those they feel have disappointed the (justified and/or unjustified) expectations of their purchase, which can represent a significant investment for them, both financially and emotionally. From the developer's perspective, whilst initially just feeling a need to (i) correct some misunderstandings/inaccuracies, (ii) help customers get the best from their products and (iii) defend their company, its reputation, and it's future, it can quickly become all too personal, because what could be more personal than public criticism of the work into which you poured your heart and soul, and that represents the capital on which you, your family and your employees depend. For any human being, how could this be taken anything other than a personal attack - whether real or not? In his vlog, Christian recently referred to how previous episodes on here have meaningfully affected the mental health of himself and Paul. We should listen hard to that. It's not victim claiming; in the context I've just described, it's almost inevitable, and we should take it seriously and responsibly. To you the customer it's an aggrieved purchase; to them, collectively you have the potential to threaten their livelihood, if not effectively rebutted.

But this is precisely what support desks were invented for, and before the advent of the internet, no way were you, as an individual customer, going to be able to publicly chastise the co-founder of a company of 70+ people, based on your specific grievances, whether genuine or not. For the support desk, it is less personal - it represents something entirely different. I've praised Spitfire's support desk highly, and they appear prominently on a recent thread that was set up to recognize those who exhibit good customer service in this industry.

My suggestions as to how we might all benefit from discussions like this in the future:
- *Paul/Christian and other developers* of medium to large companies: once you grow to a certain size, it's hard for you to perform both roles in these forums: both company owner and mate down the pub exchanging ideas and banter (about YOUR product!). I think your idea of constraining your interactions to the specific thread you set up is genius. It must be incredibly tempting to deviate from this, and engage where you see misrepresentation, but I for one would much rather your presence remain here, than for you to get so discouraged as to abandon this as a means of interaction
- *Spitfire support desk*: I can't speak highly enough of you, but think if you were to improve here in any way, it would be to proactively engage with discussions, even more than you already do, in the dispassionate way that your position allows (and requires) you to do. When Paul/Christian feel the need to jump in, perhaps that should be reflected upon as to whether you might have been able to pre-empt it by an earlier intervention. I know you often invite people to open a ticket, but that interaction then remains private, and in the long run, you might make your own lives easier if you more frequently post how issues were resolved, so others see the outcome.
- *We the customers*: I think any rant or complaint should be preceded with: here are the interactions I've had with the help desk, and it did/did not resolve my concern, but I gave them an opportunity to respond first, before raising it publicly.

This would truly be 'musicians helping musicians'. Then again, this is the internet, so we'll probably all just race each other to the bottom...


----------



## Lcas

Garry said:


> I wonder if one of the lessons here is that Developers should not engage directly on this kind of detailed feedback, however well intentioned, and instead leave this to the support staff they employ and train to engage with customers' feedback. In an ideal world, this forum would be a perfect vehicle for direct exchange of views between customer and developer. But in the real world, for the customer who feels aggrieved (rightly or wrongly), buoyed by the anonymity of the interaction (in some, not all cases) this is an opportunity to publicly demand answers/remedies/apologies directly from those they feel have disappointed the (justified and/or unjustified) expectations of their purchase, which can represent a real investment for them, both financially and emotionally. From the developer's perspective, whilst initially just feeling a need to (i) correct some misunderstandings/inaccuracies, (ii) help customers get the best from their products and (iii) defend their company, its reputation, and it's future, it can quickly become all too personal, because what could be more personal than public criticism of the work into which you poured your heart and soul, and that represents the capital on which you, your family and your employees depend. For any human being, how could this be taken anything other than a personal attack - whether real or not? In his vlog, Christian recently referred to how previous episodes on here have meaningfully affected the mental health of himself and Paul. We should listen hard to that. It's not victim claiming; in the context I've just described, it's almost inevitable, and we should take it seriously and responsibly. To you the customer it's an aggrieved purchase; to them, collectively you have the potential to threaten their livelihood.
> 
> But this is precisely what support desks were invented for, and before the advent of the internet, no way were you, as an individual customer, going to be able to publicly chastise the co-founder of a company of 70+ people, based on your specific grievances, whether genuine or not. For the support desk, it is less personal - it represents something entirely different. I've praised Spitfire's support desk highly, and they appear prominently on a recent thread that was set up to recognize those who exhibit good customer service in this industry.
> 
> My suggestions as to how we might all benefit from discussions like this in the future:
> - *Paul/Christian and other developers* of medium to large companies: once you grow to a certain size, it's hard for you to perform both roles in these forums: both company owner and mate down the pub exchanging ideas and banter (about YOUR product!). I think your idea of constraining your interactions to the specific thread you set up is genius. It must be incredibly tempting to deviate from this, and engage where you see misrepresentation, but I for one would much rather your presence remain here, than for you to get so discouraged as to abandon this as a means of interaction
> - *Spitfire support desk*: I can't speak highly enough of you, but think if you were to improve here in any way, it would be to proactively engage with discussions, even more than you already do, in the dispassionate way that your position allows (and requires) you to do. When Paul/Christian feel the need to jump in, perhaps that should be reflected upon as to whether you might have been able to pre-empt it by an earlier intervention.
> - *We the customers*: I think any rant or complaint should be preceded with: here is the interactions I've had with the help desk, and it did/did not resolve my concern, but I gave them an opportunity to respond first, before raising it publicly.
> 
> This would truly be 'musicians helping musicians'. Then again, this is the internet, so it's a race to the bottom...


I think it's about being real. Paul Thompson was basically obligated to show up. It isn't just the specific language, a rose is a rose. "Utter crap" etc is too much, whatever words used to convey it. Let whatever evidence you have stand on its own without going into hyperbole. I appreciate the intentions to help and it almost got me to change my mind about studio brass, but the hyperbole got me to sleep on my decision before acting on it.

When I woke up I figured have another look and listen. So it helped either way, to the opposite effect, besides the reverb info re-peat provided. But tons of unnecessary bickering and real world harm can be prevented with just a little thought about how harsh we are being.

Pretend it's a friendly and honest professional environment. I don't mean mind your bad words, but not to eviscerate something that really didn't have it coming.

And getting super personal and going to the ridiculous area of how and why developers do what they do. The good old days, whos still involved to what degree, and the marketing side of it. Who cares, none of our business. The good or bad of the product stands on its own regardless of the intangibles and intentions of its creator.


----------



## Sean

But if I don't rant about a library then that means I'd have to spend my time writing music instead and that just won't do...


----------



## brenneisen

Paul Cardon said:


> They recorded all this stuff (Studio series and BHCT) 2-3 years ago.



assumption? fact?


----------



## Paul Cardon

brenneisen said:


> assumption? fact?


Was a strong assumption from notes in the manual and a comment from an ensemble member that recorded on the session, but Paul Thomson responded right after that up above confirming it.


----------



## givemenoughrope

paulthomson said:


> I'm not going to get drawn into creating more little demos to counter what Piet is saying here, as I did before. I'll simply observe that its actually pretty easy to make any sample library sound bad. You find an element that you can expose, say thats quickly moving the modwheel between certain values, and then you just ride that to make it sound as bad as possible. This is clear in the screenshot posted what is going on.
> 
> I own quite a few of the other devs libraries for my own interest - theres great stuff in all of them. However I could easily make some examples of them sounding awful. Why would I do that though? It would be incredibly unfair and unrepresentative, and I have a lot of respect for any dev who goes through the incredible amount of hard work to get a product of such complexity across the finish line.
> 
> Its a fact that Christian and I are massively involved in the creation of our products. Its a fact that they come out - thanks to a large team of very talented programmers and QA who are all also musicians - with way fewer bugs than they used to when we were a handful of people. We're always aiming of course for zero, but its complex software, and anyone involved in this knows how hard it is to catch everything. We still put out tons of updates and constantly work to improve our products.
> 
> Its a shame that so many devs have left VIC. I loved this place before I was a dev, I still enjoy coming here and following whats going on, but its so hard reading stuff presented as fact that is either unfair or simply untrue. I actually spent a week editing and refining stuff for the Ambient Guitars release only a few weeks ago. And yes - I'm not doing this *most* of the time, as I have a ton of other responsibilities, but I still get my hands dirty in all kinds of ways. I love making samples as much as I love making music. I'm not sitting in the clubhouse on the 19th hole drinking gin and tonic.
> 
> A key point - I'm still a totally passionate end user of our products, as is Christian. Thats how we started, and thats how it still is. We have really talented people working with us who have undoubtedly helped us up our game across the board.
> 
> There is a cognitive dissonance though when you on the one hand get fantastic feedback from triple A list record producers and composers, through to students and keen hobbyists who purely write for pleasure - and then you read that your products are 'absolute utter crap' - believe me I could take the King James cello and make it sound crap. Doesn't mean that the lucky cellist who currently plays it can't make it sound utterly divine!
> 
> I'm also absolutely passionate about music education and opportunity for people of all ages to discover music, performing and composing, and so I spend some of my time on that side at the moment.
> 
> Not really sure what I hope to achieve by posting this message, probably nothing. I have no desire to muzzle anyone. People have different tastes, and will like the sound of different things, I have absolutely no issue with that. I struggle with misrepresentation and confident announcements of 'fact' that bear no relation to reality.
> 
> One thing is for sure. When someone uses one of our products, they are using something that has been lovingly nursed into existence with care and attention and a ton of work by a team of really talented people who work hard to make the products as good as they can. We often bin stuff that isn't up to our standards. We also have a fantastic and dedicated support team that you can communicate with who are a key part of us refining and making our products better, so please do talk with them. It really helps us, which helps you.
> 
> I joined VI-C in October 2005. Thats nearly 14 years ago! nuts. Still can't quite manage to tear myself away - and why should I have to? Theres a lot to love about a community of passionate music makers who are also massive geeks like me. I just need to learn the skill of selective reading
> 
> Peace out
> 
> P



In the time it took to write this you probably could have tracked down the cause of re-peat's trumpet examples.


----------



## Denkii

givemenoughrope said:


> In the time it took to write this you probably could have tracked down the cause of re-peat's trumpet examples.


At least it was a comment that served the discussion. This is even less helpful.

Edit: I just realized your name. Well played sir but too real.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Denkii said:


> At least it was a comment that served the discussion. This is even less helpful.



It did not serve the discussion. Honestly, I think it's highly insulting to take that tone with a customer. When I find a flaw in a product I paid hundreds of dollars for I don't want someone telling that I'm using the product incorrectly. I'd rather them just be honest and tell me that no sample library is perfect just by the nature of it being what it is. Or make an attempt to fix it. It's a big turn off.


----------



## Denkii

My personal view on this is that I disagree, which at this point referring to your statement has very little to do with the library we are talking about. I could come up with multiple ways why your own comment is insulting but I won't go that road. You'll have to look for someone else to give you that rope.

Gladly we are all still free to disagree and we were both able to convey our opinions, just as anyone else should be able to.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Denkii said:


> My personal view on this is that I disagree, which at this point referring to your statement has very little to do with the library we are talking about. I could come up with multiple ways why your own comment is insulting but I won't go that road. You'll have to look for someone else to give you that rope.
> 
> Gladly we are all still free to disagree and we were both able to convey our opinions, just as anyone else should be able to.



I'd love to hear how my comment was insulting. (And it's not "give me..." but "give 'em..." as in:  ffs)

A guy sell dude a thing. Dude tells guy there are a couple of obvious flaws with the thing. Instead of trying to fix the thing the guy blames dude. But dude is highly skilled at using these kinds of things. (As is the guy since he made the thing.) I'd possibly like to buy the thing but don't want to be worried about the flaws that dude found. And I'd be worried about bringing up these flaws bc guy's response. How's that? Serve the discussion?


----------



## Denkii

To give you a direction about where my line of thought went: to me there's a difference between business talk and individuals sharing their thoughts and it would be hypocrisy to selectively adjust our standing whether or not we allow those people who also have a business to as well be able to express their personal opinion (granted in this case on the product that their own company created) towards another personal opinion about it by another individual that was made here - in a free forum.

This is a place for sharing information and points of view after all. It's not the support line or some institution where we can truly expect a less biased and more streamlined talk towards the customer's goal.
I understand that it's hard for us to perceive Paul as unbiased - why should he be? I think it's just unfair to take away his right to express his own personal opinion and to then make a rather passive aggressive comment about "y u waste time with internet, go fix product"

To me it's two people who disagree. All the power to them to share their thoughts. Both. With reference to this platform.
Doesn't mean there are no other platforms to have a more focused conversation about the problems and how to fix them or to find different agreements if that's not possible. Which of course could be shared here again, with all the personal and emotional influence that the outcome might inherit for both parties.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Fair enough. I agree to the extent that there is a conflict of interest between a developer posting as the voice of a business or their own personal view. And yes, a public forum is not customer support. But when the marketing of products crosses over into what appears to be the personal voice it can be confusing at best and disingenuous at worst. And when the developer's customer support and/or quality control is lacking, I think voicing a reasonable grievance in public is a pretty normal thing to do.


----------



## Denkii

givemenoughrope said:


> Fair enough. I agree to the extent that there is a conflict of interest between a developer posting as the voice of a business or their own personal view. And yes, a public forum is not customer support. But when the marketing of products crosses over into what appears to be the personal voice it can be confusing at best and disingenuous at worst. And when the developer's customer support and/or quality control is lacking, I think voicing a reasonable grievance in public is a pretty normal thing to do.


I agree. All I'm trying to say is if we allow people to express their opinion in ways that could also be understood as defamation, we need to also allow the other side to be less office-template-answer towards it. At least that's my opinion. And it's what it is. An opinion. Just as Paul has one and re-peat has one. None of the words written in here can truly allow themselves to be valid for everyone, no matter who wrote them. Not unless there are also people who like the products. And there are. That doesn't mean problems don't exist.... I think you get that I'm only trying to go a more grey than black/white route.

Edit: Also I don't think that anyone can truly say that they personally don't take any pride in the work that they are doing if they at least half like their job. This probably also leads to more enthusiastic responses. It's easy to stray from the solemnly objective path but it's at least as easy to expect it from everyone else without walking in their shoes. And again: the platform also partly dictates the tone.

Some people like to think the customer is king and to some extent that might be true. I like to believe that kings also need to know how to behave. It's not a one way road. And communication is the tool to keep it from becoming one. Therefore everyone needs to be allowed to speak.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Denkii said:


> I think it's just unfair to take away his right to express his own personal opinion and to then make a rather passive aggressive comment about "y u waste time with internet, go fix product"



(You keep editing your posts..)

This is a little upside down here. Guy also took the time to post his own example (which sounded pretty great to me). It would say a lot to other potential customers if he addressed the flaws that dude found before going into marketing mode. Buy hey, whatever...


----------



## Denkii

givemenoughrope said:


> (You keep editing your posts..)
> 
> This is a little upside down here. Guy also took the time to post his own example (which sounded pretty great to me). It would say a lot to other potential customers if he addressed the flaws that dude found before going into marketing mode. Buy hey, whatever...


Maybe he will? Maybe he won't? Whatever it will be we can then make up our mind about it.
At least we are in a community where it's possible to actually get a response from the other side (personally I enjoy that). It might have been different if the library came out two days ago and everyone is screaming for a day one patch but the voices stay unheard and ignored while the product is completely unusable. But that's not the case. So let's sit back, get a cup of tea and see how this will turn out over time.
All the other products received updates, right? Maybe this will too and stuff will get fixed. Who knows.

I still stand by my statement that for the price tag you get a lot out of these products which only some years ago wouldn't have been the case with regard to the features/quality/whatnot.
I also understand re-peats gripe about the way the product was marketed and can follow his argumentation. It's just the tone that bugs me and the fast approaching character of "let's start a revolution".

But then again, that's also just me.

Edit: Sorry for getting your name wrong. I wondered why it was almost too good to be true


----------



## Parsifal666

givemenoughrope said:


> ffs)




Classic Clash!


----------



## givemenoughrope

Denkii said:


> At least we are in a community...


Oh...you're new here. That's fine. And agree with what you're saying for the most part. But these guys have done this dance before. You should search some older posts if you haven't already. 



Denkii said:


> I still stand by my statement that for the price tag you get a lot out of these products which only some years ago wouldn't have been the case with regard to the features/quality/whatnot.


Right, "for the price.." As you know, the cost of sample libraries has dropped to maybe 10-20%(?) of what they were 15 years ago (not counting the vsl cube). The market is different. Therein lies the rub I think.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

givemenoughrope said:


> I think voicing a reasonable grievance in public is a pretty normal thing to do.


Piet's got e̶x̶c̶e̶l̶l̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶s̶*, he's just being boorish about it. Like calling the Spitfire Studio Woodwinds oboe — "surely, the worst-sounding, most useless Oboeoïd in the history of human civilization". That's just being a jerk.

Imagine if you were on a project and someone gave you that note--that your work was the worst, most useless in the history of civilization--how would you take that?

*EDIT: I thought he had good points at first. I decided to hear him out. Now I think he's just got a few screws loose.


----------



## Parsifal666

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Imagine if you were on a project and someone gave you that note--that your work was the worst, most useless in the history of civilization--how would you take that?


I'd laugh and not give a shit. Your points are valid of course.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Piet's got excellent points, he's just being boorish about it. Like calling the Spitfire Studio Woodwinds oboe — "surely, the worst-sounding, most useless Oboeoïd in the history of human civilization". That's just being a jerk.
> 
> Imagine if you were on a project and someone gave you that note--that your work was the worst, most useless in the history of civilization--how would you take that?



That's the criticism of someone who spends a lot of time and energy wrangling samples. Granted, not the nicest way to say that.

He also endlessly sings the praises of their earlier libraries. So, honestly they should probably hire him as a consultant. Or should have. He's not their target market anymore.

From my own perspective, I still use and love Sable/SCS. I scratch my head at some of the things they release now but whatever...anything chamber string EVO I usually buy about 2 mins into the walkthrough.


----------



## The Darris

paulthomson said:


> I'm not going to get drawn into creating more little demos to counter what Piet is saying here, as I did before. I'll simply observe that its actually pretty easy to make any sample library sound bad. You find an element that you can expose, say thats quickly moving the modwheel between certain values, and then you just ride that to make it sound as bad as possible. This is clear in the screenshot posted what is going on.
> 
> I own quite a few of the other devs libraries for my own interest - theres great stuff in all of them. However I could easily make some examples of them sounding awful. Why would I do that though? It would be incredibly unfair and unrepresentative, and I have a lot of respect for any dev who goes through the incredible amount of hard work to get a product of such complexity across the finish line.
> 
> Its a fact that Christian and I are massively involved in the creation of our products. Its a fact that they come out - thanks to a large team of very talented programmers and QA who are all also musicians - with way fewer bugs than they used to when we were a handful of people. We're always aiming of course for zero, but its complex software, and anyone involved in this knows how hard it is to catch everything. We still put out tons of updates and constantly work to improve our products.
> 
> Its a shame that so many devs have left VIC. I loved this place before I was a dev, I still enjoy coming here and following whats going on, but its so hard reading stuff presented as fact that is either unfair or simply untrue. I actually spent a week editing and refining stuff for the Ambient Guitars release only a few weeks ago. And yes - I'm not doing this *most* of the time, as I have a ton of other responsibilities, but I still get my hands dirty in all kinds of ways. I love making samples as much as I love making music. I'm not sitting in the clubhouse on the 19th hole drinking gin and tonic.
> 
> A key point - I'm still a totally passionate end user of our products, as is Christian. Thats how we started, and thats how it still is. We have really talented people working with us who have undoubtedly helped us up our game across the board.
> 
> There is a cognitive dissonance though when you on the one hand get fantastic feedback from triple A list record producers and composers, through to students and keen hobbyists who purely write for pleasure - and then you read that your products are 'absolute utter crap' - believe me I could take the King James cello and make it sound crap. Doesn't mean that the lucky cellist who currently plays it can't make it sound utterly divine!
> 
> I'm also absolutely passionate about music education and opportunity for people of all ages to discover music, performing and composing, and so I spend some of my time on that side at the moment.
> 
> Not really sure what I hope to achieve by posting this message, probably nothing. I have no desire to muzzle anyone. People have different tastes, and will like the sound of different things, I have absolutely no issue with that. I struggle with misrepresentation and confident announcements of 'fact' that bear no relation to reality.
> 
> One thing is for sure. When someone uses one of our products, they are using something that has been lovingly nursed into existence with care and attention and a ton of work by a team of really talented people who work hard to make the products as good as they can. We often bin stuff that isn't up to our standards. We also have a fantastic and dedicated support team that you can communicate with who are a key part of us refining and making our products better, so please do talk with them. It really helps us, which helps you.
> 
> I joined VI-C in October 2005. Thats nearly 14 years ago! nuts. Still can't quite manage to tear myself away - and why should I have to? Theres a lot to love about a community of passionate music makers who are also massive geeks like me. I just need to learn the skill of selective reading
> 
> Peace out
> 
> P


Paul,

I'd like to apologize if I misrepresented You, Christian, or Spitfire in anyway. I hope you know that was never my intention. If I mentioned something as fact without prefacing it with it being my opinion or assumption, I truly apologize. I tried to speak passionately as an end user and vent my frustrations that I've experienced over the course of the last few years with Spitfire products. Believe me when I say, I've been venting this frustration about different developers as well. I have a lot more I'd like to talk to you about that I think would best serve as a private conversation. Again, I do apologize for how I responded to a lot of the issues brought up here. 

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## AllanH

Regarding the studio brass pro, I have reached a conclusion of sorts: I'm sure I can make good use of studio brass but it's also pretty clear that is not a little brother of the symphonic brass. I had erroneously thought of the studio brass as a smaller and drier version of the symphonic series, but that is not really what it is. I'll have to look at the symphonic brass next time.


----------



## jbuhler

AllanH said:


> Regarding the studio brass pro, I have reached a conclusion of sorts: I'm sure I can make good use of studio brass but it's also pretty clear that is not a little brother of the symphonic brass. I had erroneously thought of the studio brass as a smaller and drier version of the symphonic series, but that is not really what it is. I'll have to look at the symphonic brass next time.


I do think that Studio Brass Pro offers a good complement to SSB in terms of content, covering instruments and articulations that are lacking in the latter. I don't yet know if they will mix effectively.


----------



## AllanH

jbuhler said:


> I do think that Studio Brass Pro offers a good complement to SSB in terms of content, covering instruments and articulations that are lacking in the latter. I don't yet know if they will mix effectively.



After another hour or two of experimentation, I'm actually pretty pleased. I am inserting a Spaces II Renolds hall and dialing back the reverb signal to ca -8 to -12 db and both studio brass and studio ww mix nicely with everything else I have. The Studio Brass sounds wonderfully rich when run through the Berlin Church B, but it's a bit too "churchy" so I switched to a concert hall for my template.


----------



## jbuhler

AllanH said:


> After another hour or two of experimentation, I'm actually pretty pleased. I am inserting a Spaces II Renolds hall and dialing back the reverb signal to ca -8 to -12 db and both studio brass and studio ww mix nicely with everything else I have. The Studio Brass sounds wonderfully rich when run through the Berlin Church B, but it's a bit too "churchy" so I switched to a concert hall for my template.


I don't have Spaces. I fiddled with a few reverbs I do have, and haven't yet found a setting that gets into the ballpark of Lyndhurst Hall. Yes, a few of the concert hall reverbs I've tried out sound very nice with the library on its own.


----------



## Loïc D

Well all those discussions wouldn’t happen if there were updates & fixes after the release of products.

I’m quite surprised at how seldom the sample companies fix their own products.

The business race seems not to consider fixes & user support as paramount. This, to me, is the main mistake and the source of countless gripes & frustration.

I’m not speaking for everyone, some (small) companies have regular updates, a perspective everyone should consider when buying a library.

Users, please raise tickets for bugs & glitches.
Companies, please patch your products.
And everyone will be happier in the long run.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> I don't have Spaces. I fiddled with a few reverbs I do have, and haven't yet found a setting that gets into the ballpark of Lyndhurst Hall. Yes, a few of the concert hall reverbs I've tried out sound very nice with the library on its own.



Spaces II is really good! But (this might sound weird) all I've used on SStWW is RC 48 on the bus, and believe it or not the concert hall sounds pretty damn good!

I mean, it's not the freakishly excellent Altiverb or Pro-R, but it definitely works well in a pinch imo.


----------



## The Darris

jbuhler said:


> I don't have Spaces. I fiddled with a few reverbs I do have, and haven't yet found a setting that gets into the ballpark of Lyndhurst Hall. Yes, a few of the concert hall reverbs I've tried out sound very nice with the library on its own.


I would go with an Algo reverb like the Lexicon PCM (random hall). It's great at creating a warm sounding space similar to AIR. I honestly just load up the main Random Hall patch and set the tail to 2.15 seconds. That is roughly the tail at AIR. It allows me to blend all of my libraries together and from what I can tell, it's worked out well when my mock ups get mixed with the scores recorded at AIR.


----------



## star.keys

Businesses being passionate about their products isn’t a big deal. Customers being passionate about complaining about their products should be a big deal to the business. I’m surprised with the response from the business.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

star.keys said:


> Businesses being passionate about their products isn’t a big deal. Customers being passionate about complaining about their products should be a big deal to the business. I’m surprised with the response from the business.



Agreed here. I remember Aaron who did the Infinite Brass got a lot of feedback and there were quite some issues coming from the buyers and it was remarkable that he within of 3 month released 2 updates to iron out the problems. That is very commendable in my opinion and it shows attitude not only because of the updates but how he openly dealt with the critic. Especially smaller devs are like that and that is I don´t know why but it seems there is something about that ability of recognition and reflexion which I find is at a great practise rather than saying: Oh well, there is chance that you can let sound every library like crap. While there is some truth in that Piets point where not of that nature willingly to let sound his examples bad on purpose. Just my opinion of course.


----------



## re-peat

givemenoughrope said:


> I'd rather them just be honest and tell me that no sample library is perfect just by the nature of it being what it is. Or make an attempt to fix it. It's a big turn off.




Paul obviously refuses to accept that there might be anything wrong with these libraries, *Rope*. Had much the same thing happening years ago when Hollywood Strings was first released and proved to be badly out of tune, particularly the violas. Seven or eight thread-pages it took me and one or two other members to try and convince Jay Asher, who was EW’s online representative at the time, Doug bless him, that the library had serious tuning problems, but he would have none of it. He just wouldn’t. Audio example after audio example I posted, but to no avail. Jay kept replying that it must be a user- or system-error, and that the library itself was most certainly not the root of these intonation issues. How could there possibly be anything wrong, was his main argument, with a library that was engineered by the legend Shawn Murphy and produced by that holiest of trinities Doug, Nick and Thomas J.? How indeed?

This went on for day after tiresome day, until finally, at long last, word came from higher up in the East West Towers, that they acknowledged there was indeed a problem. Which was then solved (not entirely, but more than good enough) in the next update.

*But the thing is, and this is the bit that’s still relevant today*: to get to that point, you have to fight page after page against forces that simply don’t wanna hear about it. Fellow members start to turn against you, all kinds of assumptions are made about the evil intentions you might have, you’re accused of personal attacks (the same despicable trick that P. Cardon tried earlier in this thread), forum administrators begin to get a bit nervous, developers' egos are hurt so they disappear (I had a couple of feisty run-ins with Mike Barry from Cinesamples as well), the atmosphere sours ... And why? Only because a developer didn’t do his job right, and sold us a stinker.

In the case of the Hollywood Strings, it ended well. Doug and Nick were, thankfully, magnanimous enough to admit having let a flawed product go out of the door and they addressed the issue. Unfortunately, I don’t see any such outcome for the Studio Series. The moment I read that these libraries _“had been lovingly nursed into existence with care and attention and a ton of work by a team of really talented people who work hard to make the products as good as they can”_, I knew we were screwed.

- - - - - - -

Here is an excerpt of a post I wrote on the subject some years ago. I think it still stands every bit as much today as it did then.

"A point that is discussed far too rarely and which is, in my opinion, a big part of the problem: the quality of sample libraries is often simply not good enough. I know of no other field of commercial endeavour where the buyer has to accept — with meek resignment — that a product, for which good money was payed, might either be unfinished, flawed, through-and-through buggy or in no way capable of the claims it was sold with.

And for some bizarre reason, we — the paying customers — are expected to accept all that. And we’re also expected to have the polite and considerate patience to wait and wait and wait for months, sometimes years, in the hope that corrective updates might materialize. (We even have to accept that these updates never materialize at all.)
Moreover, if we dare say something about this, and happen to have the audacity to use words which betray a fraction too much emotion, disappointment, frustration or irritation, we’re branded rude, ungrateful and boorish whiners.

Why is that? Why has this totally absurd, unjust — and, I suspect, in some cases borderline illegal — state of affairs become the accepted norm?
And why are ‘respect’ and ‘professionalism’ deemed prerequisites when users talk to, or about, developers, but why do these same paying users have to tolerate to be treated without a hint of respect and professionalism by developers who sell them substandard, flawed or unfinished product?

(...) If I buy just about anything other than music software and that carries the tag ‘professional’, I can rest assured that a professional product, fully answering to the definition with which it was sold, is indeed what I will have purchased. If however I buy a so-called ‘professional’ sample library, entire sections might be badly out of tune, articulations might be missing, instruments might suffer from being poorly recorded, samples might be edited sloppily, the programming might be all off, certain functions might work erraticaly or not work at all, the library might be frustratingly incomplete, the package might still be in alpha- or beta-shape and in dire need of urgent updates and revisions, …

And we’re supposed to find all this perfectly normal and acceptable? And remain gentlemanlike and courteous towards the developer at all times? And if we don’t, and we vent our dissatisfaction instead, we’re accused of childish ranting, inordinate negativity, or suspected of having some sinister agenda towards the developer? (...)"

- - - - - - -

My respect for sample library developers is at an all time low at the moment. It really is. (As always, a few isolated emporiums excepted.) But what I find at least as depressing is the attitude of the majority of buyers. And it's particularly worrying that it seems to have become worse with the new generation of buyers. That docile, unthinking, spineless, uncritical, awe-struck willingness to accept whatever Mr. Big Shot Developer and Mr. Famous Engineer sells them, never questioning whether it is actually up to sample or not. Heck, most of them aren't even capable to hear the difference. And the hysterical indignation with which they condemn anyone who dares to be critical of a product of their revered developers ...

At the end of the day, you almost wanna say: well, it must be a fair world after all, these people — all these rabbits sitting round the Spitfire lantern in brainless sedation — get exactly what they deserve. The Studio Series is indeed the perfect product for them. What was I thinking, saying there is something wrong with it?

_


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

re-peat said:


> Paul obviously refuses to accept that there might be anything wrong with these libraries, *Rope*. Had much the same thing happening years ago when Hollywood Strings was first released and proved to be badly out of tune, particularly the violas. Seven or eight thread-pages it took me and one or two other members to try and convince Jay Asher, who was EW’s online representative at the time, Doug bless him, that the library had serious tuning problems, but he would have none of it. He just wouldn’t. Audio example after audio example I posted, but to no avail. Jay kept replying that it must be a user- or system-error, and that the library itself was most certainly not the root of these intonation issues. How could there possibly be anything wrong, was his main argument, with a library that was engineered by the legend Shawn Murphy and produced by that holiest of trinities Doug, Nick and Thomas J.? How indeed?
> 
> This went on for day after tiresome day, until finally, at long last, word came from higher up in the East West Towers, that they acknowledged there was indeed a problem. Which was then solved (not entirely, but more than good enough) in the next update.
> 
> *But the thing is, and this is the bit that’s still relevant today*: to get to that point, you have to fight page after page against forces that simply don’t wanna hear about it. Fellow members start to turn against you, all kinds of assumptions are made about the evil intentions you might have, you’re accused of personal attacks (the same despicable trick that P. Cardon tried earlier in this thread), forum administrators begin to get a bit nervous, developers' egos are hurt so they disappear (I had a couple of feisty run-ins with Mike Barry from Cinesamples as well), the atmosphere sours ... And why? Only because a developer didn’t do his job right, and sold us a stinker.
> 
> In the case of the Hollywood Strings, it ended well. Doug and Nick were, thankfully, magnanimous enough to admit having let a flawed product go out of the door and they addressed the issue. Unfortunately, I don’t see any such outcome for the Studio Series. The moment I read that these libraries _“had been lovingly nursed into existence with care and attention and a ton of work by a team of really talented people who work hard to make the products as good as they can”_, I knew we were screwed.
> 
> - - - - - - -
> 
> Here is an excerpt of a post I wrote on the subject some years ago. I think it still stands every bit as much today as it did then.
> 
> "A point that is discussed far too rarely and which is, in my opinion, a big part of the problem: the quality of sample libraries is often simply not good enough. I know of no other field of commercial endeavour where the buyer has to accept — with meek resignment — that a product, for which good money was payed, might either be unfinished, flawed, through-and-through buggy or in no way capable of the claims it was sold with.
> 
> And for some bizarre reason, we — the paying customers — are expected to accept all that. And we’re also expected to have the polite and considerate patience to wait and wait and wait for months, sometimes years, in the hope that corrective updates might materialize. (We even have to accept that these updates never materialize at all.)
> Moreover, if we dare say something about this, and happen to have the audacity to use words which betray a fraction too much emotion, disappointment, frustration or irritation, we’re branded rude, ungrateful and boorish whiners.
> 
> Why is that? Why has this totally absurd, unjust — and, I suspect, in some cases borderline illegal — state of affairs become the accepted norm?
> And why are ‘respect’ and ‘professionalism’ deemed prerequisites when users talk to, or about, developers, but why do these same paying users have to tolerate to be treated without a hint of respect and professionalism by developers who sell them substandard, flawed or unfinished product?
> 
> (...) If I buy just about anything other than music software and that carries the tag ‘professional’, I can rest assured that a professional product, fully answering to the definition with which it was sold, is indeed what I will have purchased. If however I buy a so-called ‘professional’ sample library, entire sections might be badly out of tune, articulations might be missing, instruments might suffer from being poorly recorded, samples might be edited sloppily, the programming might be all off, certain functions might work erraticaly or not work at all, the library might be frustratingly incomplete, the package might still be in alpha- or beta-shape and in dire need of urgent updates and revisions, …
> 
> And we’re supposed to find all this perfectly normal and acceptable? And remain gentlemanlike and courteous towards the developer at all times? And if we don’t, and we vent our dissatisfaction instead, we’re accused of childish ranting, inordinate negativity, or suspected of having some sinister agenda towards the developer? (...)"
> 
> - - - - - - -
> 
> My respect for sample library developers is at an all time low at the moment. It really is. (As always, a few isolated emporiums excepted.) But what I find at least as depressing is the attitude of the majority of buyers. And it's particularly worrying that it seems to have become worse with the new generation of buyers. That docile, unthinking, spineless, uncritical, awe-struck willingness to accept whatever Mr. Big Shot Developer and Mr. Famous Engineer sells them, never questioning whether it is actually up to sample or not. Heck, most of them aren't even capable to hear the difference. And the hysterical indignation with which they condemn anyone who dares to be critical of a product of their revered developers ...
> 
> At the end of the day, you almost wanna say: well, it must be a fair world after all, these people — all these rabbits sitting round the Spitfire lantern in brainless sedation — get exactly what they deserve. The Studio Series is indeed the perfect product for them. What was I thinking, saying there is something wrong with it?
> 
> _


fight the powah


----------



## Parsifal666

re-peat said:


> Paul obviously refuses to accept that there might be anything wrong with these libraries, *Rope*. Had much the same thing happening years ago when Hollywood Strings was first released and proved to be badly out of tune, particularly the violas. Seven or eight thread-pages it took me and one or two other members to try and convince Jay Asher, who was EW’s online representative at the time, Doug bless him, that the library had serious tuning problems, but he would have none of it. He just wouldn’t. Audio example after audio example I posted, but to no avail. Jay kept replying that it must be a user- or system-error, and that the library itself was most certainly not the root of these intonation issues. How could there possibly be anything wrong, was his main argument, with a library that was engineered by the legend Shawn Murphy and produced by that holiest of trinities Doug, Nick and Thomas J.? How indeed?
> 
> This went on for day after tiresome day, until finally, at long last, word came from higher up in the East West Towers, that they acknowledged there was indeed a problem. Which was then solved (not entirely, but more than good enough) in the next update.
> 
> *But the thing is, and this is the bit that’s still relevant today*: to get to that point, you have to fight page after page against forces that simply don’t wanna hear about it. Fellow members start to turn against you, all kinds of assumptions are made about the evil intentions you might have, you’re accused of personal attacks (the same despicable trick that P. Cardon tried earlier in this thread), forum administrators begin to get a bit nervous, developers' egos are hurt so they disappear (I had a couple of feisty run-ins with Mike Barry from Cinesamples as well), the atmosphere sours ... And why? Only because a developer didn’t do his job right, and sold us a stinker.
> 
> In the case of the Hollywood Strings, it ended well. Doug and Nick were, thankfully, magnanimous enough to admit having let a flawed product go out of the door and they addressed the issue. Unfortunately, I don’t see any such outcome for the Studio Series. The moment I read that these libraries _“had been lovingly nursed into existence with care and attention and a ton of work by a team of really talented people who work hard to make the products as good as they can”_, I knew we were screwed.
> 
> - - - - - - -
> 
> Here is an excerpt of a post I wrote on the subject some years ago. I think it still stands every bit as much today as it did then.
> 
> "A point that is discussed far too rarely and which is, in my opinion, a big part of the problem: the quality of sample libraries is often simply not good enough. I know of no other field of commercial endeavour where the buyer has to accept — with meek resignment — that a product, for which good money was payed, might either be unfinished, flawed, through-and-through buggy or in no way capable of the claims it was sold with.
> 
> And for some bizarre reason, we — the paying customers — are expected to accept all that. And we’re also expected to have the polite and considerate patience to wait and wait and wait for months, sometimes years, in the hope that corrective updates might materialize. (We even have to accept that these updates never materialize at all.)
> Moreover, if we dare say something about this, and happen to have the audacity to use words which betray a fraction too much emotion, disappointment, frustration or irritation, we’re branded rude, ungrateful and boorish whiners.
> 
> Why is that? Why has this totally absurd, unjust — and, I suspect, in some cases borderline illegal — state of affairs become the accepted norm?
> And why are ‘respect’ and ‘professionalism’ deemed prerequisites when users talk to, or about, developers, but why do these same paying users have to tolerate to be treated without a hint of respect and professionalism by developers who sell them substandard, flawed or unfinished product?
> 
> (...) If I buy just about anything other than music software and that carries the tag ‘professional’, I can rest assured that a professional product, fully answering to the definition with which it was sold, is indeed what I will have purchased. If however I buy a so-called ‘professional’ sample library, entire sections might be badly out of tune, articulations might be missing, instruments might suffer from being poorly recorded, samples might be edited sloppily, the programming might be all off, certain functions might work erraticaly or not work at all, the library might be frustratingly incomplete, the package might still be in alpha- or beta-shape and in dire need of urgent updates and revisions, …
> 
> And we’re supposed to find all this perfectly normal and acceptable? And remain gentlemanlike and courteous towards the developer at all times? And if we don’t, and we vent our dissatisfaction instead, we’re accused of childish ranting, inordinate negativity, or suspected of having some sinister agenda towards the developer? (...)"
> 
> - - - - - - -
> 
> My respect for sample library developers is at an all time low at the moment. It really is. (As always, a few isolated emporiums excepted.) But what I find at least as depressing is the attitude of the majority of buyers. And it's particularly worrying that it seems to have become worse with the new generation of buyers. That docile, unthinking, spineless, uncritical, awe-struck willingness to accept whatever Mr. Big Shot Developer and Mr. Famous Engineer sells them, never questioning whether it is actually up to sample or not. Heck, most of them aren't even capable to hear the difference. And the hysterical indignation with which they condemn anyone who dares to be critical of a product of their revered developers ...
> 
> At the end of the day, you almost wanna say: well, it must be a fair world after all, these people — all these rabbits sitting round the Spitfire lantern in brainless sedation — get exactly what they deserve. The Studio Series is indeed the perfect product for them. What was I thinking, saying there is something wrong with it?
> 
> _



There are very interesting points here, but (putting aside for a second the words regarding the developers) does any of this seem dismissive and condescending to the _*buyers*_? I have a hard time believing a good portion of this forum are blind SA sycophants...otherwise I'd never come here.

But hey, if that's what you think then more power to you (it doesn't exactly hurt my feelings). I remain grateful for your audio examples.


----------



## Alex Fraser

re-peat said:


> At the end of the day, you almost wanna say: well, it must be a fair world after all, these people — all these rabbits sitting round the Spitfire lantern in brainless sedation — get exactly what they deserve. The Studio Series is indeed the perfect product for them. What was I thinking, saying there is something wrong with it?


Your point on making sure developers create products that are fit for purpose is well made, Piet.
But I have to ask - have you considered that different customers have different expectations for the libraries that they purchase?

Your work obviously demands instruments that sound good in exposed lines, with good transitions etc. And that's OK. Should *I* decide to purchase the Studio Series - I'll be putting it into commercial R&B productions, underscore for short films (where the music is half buried by dialogue) and a personal pet project which is basically an "A-Team" Mike Post tribute(!)

None of these uses will demand the level of finesse that more classical or filmic genres require.
More to the point, the music I'd make using the libraries would pay the bills, feed my kids..._and I'd get a return on my investment._ I won't feel short changed in the slightest, even if some of the instruments have issues. And at the current wish list price, that's something I can easily live with.

It's unfair to dismiss any group of customers as brainless. We all require different things in any given library and it's up to the individual to weigh up the potential use vs cost for any product. It appears your standards are higher than most - and that's cool! Someone needs to push the envelope. But please remember that everyone buys libraries for a different purpose and the use cases presented on this forum are only part of the story.

All said with respect.
A


----------



## jbuhler

The Darris said:


> I would go with an Algo reverb like the Lexicon PCM (random hall). It's great at creating a warm sounding space similar to AIR. I honestly just load up the main Random Hall patch and set the tail to 2.15 seconds. That is roughly the tail at AIR. It allows me to blend all of my libraries together and from what I can tell, it's worked out well when my mock ups get mixed with the scores recorded at AIR.


Thanks for the recommendation!


----------



## Parsifal666

Sooo, I got a smaller commission last night and an advance and (wait for it)….

bought Studio Brass Professional. 

How do ya like me now lol!

Downloading now...hey, when money's not a problem getting libraries like this are great fun and can be quite inspiring. I already accept that it might not be even close to the quality of Hollywood Brass and the Hein overall, but I have enough moolah incoming to indulge my interest in this series.

I wouldn't try this approach at home, folks, especially if you're working on selling your second child (the first one is long gone by now) to get this library.


----------



## gussunkri

...and I just bought Studio Brass core. Possibly, I will upgrade to pro this weekend but I really like the idea of the small HD footprint to have on the internal HD on my traveling rig.


----------



## DerGeist

I absolutely love re-peats way with words. I'm tempted to create a really disappointing woodwind library just so I can enjoy the response (gigasampler only).

"all these rabbits sitting round the Spitfire lantern in brainless sedation" is gold.

I still may buy this library


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> Spaces II is really good! But (this might sound weird) all I've used on SStWW is RC 48 on the bus, and believe it or not the concert hall sounds pretty damn good!


It doesn’t sound weird at all. I’ve had good luck with placing the instruments in various halls. So far the halls I tried just don’t sound much like the big hall in Air.


----------



## Parsifal666

DerGeist said:


> I absolutely love re-peats way with words. I'm tempted to create a really disappointing woodwind library just so I can enjoy the response (gigasampler only).
> 
> "all these rabbits sitting round the Spitfire lantern in brainless sedation" is gold.
> 
> I still may buy this library



I must admit there is a high entertainment factor (especially for me once I assured myself re-peat is mostly just trying to help and in my case he certainly did).



jbuhler said:


> It doesn’t sound weird at all. I’ve had good luck with placing the instruments in various halls. So far the halls I tried just don’t sound much like the big hall in Air.



I've gotten good hall sound from both Valhalla Vintage and Room 'verbs as well (and I was surprised with _that_ I'll tell you! Hard to beat the prices imo).


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> I've gotten good hall sound from both Valhalla Vintage and Room 'verbs as well (and I was surprised with _that_ I'll tell you! Hard to beat the prices imo).


I’m most curious to hear your reaction to Studio Brass. For me it’s seeming a very good complement to SSB, the Arks, etc. It has some real roughness—the sustains of both tubas in the high range, the high horn 2, trumpet 2’s occasional struggles with playing major sevenths—but that’s not always a bad thing if you have other libraries available. In any case I wonder how it might complement your other brass libraries.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> I’m most curious to hear your reaction to Studio Brass. For me it’s seeming a very good complement to SSB, the Arks, etc. It has some real roughness—the sustains of both tubas in the high range, the high horn 2, trumpet 2’s occasional struggles with playing major sevenths—but that’s not always a bad thing if you have other libraries available. In any case I wonder how it might complement your other brass libraries.



I'm quite curious myself lol! It will be fun to place SStB next to the Arks in particular for me. The SStB ensembles in particular (I so love the woodwinds in Arks 1 and 2).


----------



## dzilizzi

LowweeK said:


> Well all those discussions wouldn’t happen if there were updates & fixes after the release of products.
> 
> I’m quite surprised at how seldom the sample companies fix their own products.
> 
> The business race seems not to consider fixes & user support as paramount. This, to me, is the main mistake and the source of countless gripes & frustration.
> 
> I’m not speaking for everyone, some (small) companies have regular updates, a perspective everyone should consider when buying a library.
> 
> Users, please raise tickets for bugs & glitches.
> Companies, please patch your products.
> And everyone will be happier in the long run.


Well, I just got some upgrades for SSW and SSB when I was downloading my new stuff. So it does happen.


----------



## paulthomson

Hey all -

Fascinating discussion - really - I'm noting everything I'm reading and sifting through the slight exaggerations to find useful nuggets to work with.

I thought you might be interested - in the past 12 months we've released 22 Kontakt product updates and 9 Spitfire plugin updates. 307 reported issues have been resolved in the same time.

We do take a pride in making good stuff. Now I must go back to my lovely rabbit hutch and turn the lamps up a bit. Where is my syringe?

P x


----------



## reid

wow - every reminder of why I stopped hanging round vi-control, in just three pages of thread. thanks for the reminder chaps!


----------



## Garry

reid said:


> wow - every reminder of why I stopped hanging round vi-control, in just three pages of thread. thanks for the reminder chaps!


Yup, and if this one doesn't do it for you, try this one.


----------



## Parsifal666

acomposer said:


> Yeah, quite a poisonous vibe but in that passive aggressive 'just trying to be helpful' way.
> 
> I need a shower.
> 
> Then I need to not visit this place for a long, long time.


We already miss you.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Alex Fraser said:


> "A-Team" Mike Post tribute(!)


Yes. Yes! Yessss!  Please help me remember what it's like to smile again.



I like my action cues with a pinch of disco.


----------



## visiblenoise

Software that doesn't 100% live up to expectations? No way!


----------



## Parsifal666

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Yes. Yes! Yessss!  Please help me remember what it's like to smile again.



Mike Post rules! Even had a Who song written about his themes.


----------



## ionian

It's very telling that Kontakt already has a built in facility for you to demo libraries but pretty much no developers take advantage of it. Because if you could demo most of the libraries, you'd never buy them. 

It's a much better business plan to sell you libraries with tons of problems, misrepresented by very carefully made demos, and then say, "Sorry, no refunds, no resales". 

Unfortunately I've been complaining about the quality of sample libraries since the gigasampler days back on that Northern forum (which got me banned!) and it's only gotten worse with time. At least the libraries don't cost as much for the sloppiness as they used to.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Parsifal666 said:


> Mike Post rules! Even had a Who song written about his themes.


Music: The cause of and solution to all of life's problems.


----------



## ionian

Parsifal666 said:


> Mike Post rules! Even had a Who song written about his themes.



A while ago, There was a great interview with some of his ghostwriters about how he used to be out playing golf all day long while they did all the writing. I wish I could find it now. But technically Mike Post's _Ghostwriters_ rule!


----------



## Parsifal666

ionian said:


> A while ago, There was a great interview with some of his ghostwriters about how he used to be out playing golf all day long while they did all the writing. I wish I could find it now. But technically Mike Post's _Ghostwriters_ rule!


LOL! Who ya gonna call?


----------



## givemenoughrope

Alex Fraser said:


> But I have to ask - have you considered that different customers have different expectations for the libraries that they purchase?



Key point and a huge understatement. I read through this entire thread from the beginning yesterday and much of the back and forth is people differing on what they want out of a studio brass library sonically. I wouldn’t expect any different and it’s a normal thing to do. Erik(?) posted all of those examples of NXNW. I could hear elements of all of them working, some better than others. Now imagine being a developer and trying to please the majority of the customer base via your chosen approach/aesthetic. It goes without saying that you’d have to be passionate bordering on maniacal to attempt these kinds of libraries let alone finish it enough to release it. So, yea, respect. But something with that many parts is going to have a few issues.


----------



## NoamL

re-peat said:


> You don't seriously think that I buy libraries, Spitfire's or others, to then come here at VI-C, or anywhere else, and waste countless hours of everybody's time (as well as my own) knowingly misrepresenting these products by making them sound as bad as I possible can, only because I stumbled upon a few flaws?



slowly raises hand


----------



## givemenoughrope

ionian said:


> It's very telling that Kontakt already has a built in facility for you to demo libraries but pretty much no developers take advantage of it. Because if you could demo most of the libraries, you'd never buy them.



I know for myself the opposite would also be true. Even a library with issues/oddities if I could work around them I’d go for it. I mean, I own all of 8dio’s Adagio/Agitato. If I had no prior knowledge of those libraries and demoed them at a store or something it would take me a week.


----------



## Lcas

re-peat said:


> Paul obviously refuses to accept that there might be anything wrong with these libraries, *Rope*. Had much the same thing happening years ago when Hollywood Strings was first released and proved to be badly out of tune, particularly the violas. Seven or eight thread-pages it took me and one or two other members to try and convince Jay Asher, who was EW’s online representative at the time, Doug bless him, that the library had serious tuning problems, but he would have none of it. He just wouldn’t. Audio example after audio example I posted, but to no avail. Jay kept replying that it must be a user- or system-error, and that the library itself was most certainly not the root of these intonation issues. How could there possibly be anything wrong, was his main argument, with a library that was engineered by the legend Shawn Murphy and produced by that holiest of trinities Doug, Nick and Thomas J.? How indeed?
> 
> This went on for day after tiresome day, until finally, at long last, word came from higher up in the East West Towers, that they acknowledged there was indeed a problem. Which was then solved (not entirely, but more than good enough) in the next update.
> 
> *But the thing is, and this is the bit that’s still relevant today*: to get to that point, you have to fight page after page against forces that simply don’t wanna hear about it. Fellow members start to turn against you, all kinds of assumptions are made about the evil intentions you might have, you’re accused of personal attacks (the same despicable trick that P. Cardon tried earlier in this thread), forum administrators begin to get a bit nervous, developers' egos are hurt so they disappear (I had a couple of feisty run-ins with Mike Barry from Cinesamples as well), the atmosphere sours ... And why? Only because a developer didn’t do his job right, and sold us a stinker.
> 
> In the case of the Hollywood Strings, it ended well. Doug and Nick were, thankfully, magnanimous enough to admit having let a flawed product go out of the door and they addressed the issue. Unfortunately, I don’t see any such outcome for the Studio Series. The moment I read that these libraries _“had been lovingly nursed into existence with care and attention and a ton of work by a team of really talented people who work hard to make the products as good as they can”_, I knew we were screwed.
> 
> - - - - - - -
> 
> Here is an excerpt of a post I wrote on the subject some years ago. I think it still stands every bit as much today as it did then.
> 
> "A point that is discussed far too rarely and which is, in my opinion, a big part of the problem: the quality of sample libraries is often simply not good enough. I know of no other field of commercial endeavour where the buyer has to accept — with meek resignment — that a product, for which good money was payed, might either be unfinished, flawed, through-and-through buggy or in no way capable of the claims it was sold with.
> 
> And for some bizarre reason, we — the paying customers — are expected to accept all that. And we’re also expected to have the polite and considerate patience to wait and wait and wait for months, sometimes years, in the hope that corrective updates might materialize. (We even have to accept that these updates never materialize at all.)
> Moreover, if we dare say something about this, and happen to have the audacity to use words which betray a fraction too much emotion, disappointment, frustration or irritation, we’re branded rude, ungrateful and boorish whiners.
> 
> Why is that? Why has this totally absurd, unjust — and, I suspect, in some cases borderline illegal — state of affairs become the accepted norm?
> And why are ‘respect’ and ‘professionalism’ deemed prerequisites when users talk to, or about, developers, but why do these same paying users have to tolerate to be treated without a hint of respect and professionalism by developers who sell them substandard, flawed or unfinished product?
> 
> (...) If I buy just about anything other than music software and that carries the tag ‘professional’, I can rest assured that a professional product, fully answering to the definition with which it was sold, is indeed what I will have purchased. If however I buy a so-called ‘professional’ sample library, entire sections might be badly out of tune, articulations might be missing, instruments might suffer from being poorly recorded, samples might be edited sloppily, the programming might be all off, certain functions might work erraticaly or not work at all, the library might be frustratingly incomplete, the package might still be in alpha- or beta-shape and in dire need of urgent updates and revisions, …
> 
> And we’re supposed to find all this perfectly normal and acceptable? And remain gentlemanlike and courteous towards the developer at all times? And if we don’t, and we vent our dissatisfaction instead, we’re accused of childish ranting, inordinate negativity, or suspected of having some sinister agenda towards the developer? (...)"
> 
> - - - - - - -
> 
> My respect for sample library developers is at an all time low at the moment. It really is. (As always, a few isolated emporiums excepted.) But what I find at least as depressing is the attitude of the majority of buyers. And it's particularly worrying that it seems to have become worse with the new generation of buyers. That docile, unthinking, spineless, uncritical, awe-struck willingness to accept whatever Mr. Big Shot Developer and Mr. Famous Engineer sells them, never questioning whether it is actually up to sample or not. Heck, most of them aren't even capable to hear the difference. And the hysterical indignation with which they condemn anyone who dares to be critical of a product of their revered developers ...
> 
> At the end of the day, you almost wanna say: well, it must be a fair world after all, these people — all these rabbits sitting round the Spitfire lantern in brainless sedation — get exactly what they deserve. The Studio Series is indeed the perfect product for them. What was I thinking, saying there is something wrong with it?
> 
> _


Relax dude, that's the whole point. I took your advice at face value but the stuff you said was over the top enough to give me some doubts. Not about what you shared, but the degree to which it is prevalent, or relevant to me.

It's not as bad as you have made it, not for the content to price ratio. I get it, a whole bunch of garbage is still just garbage, but enough examples and vouchers are around for it to be good enough for me as a base library.

If I'm wrong and it is so unusable, for a total beginner besides, I will be sure to let people know. I will be back after a few weeks to give my novice but relevant opinions on what this library is good for.

Now, I don't know what you are, but I imagine me wasting money on my first brass library is a bigger deal than you whiffing on yet another toy in your box. But I'm not going to start calling you names because you disagree with me.

If anybody has disrespect coming to them it would be you, but I don't carry that sentiment. You were being ridiculous and now you are crying about me being just a little honest with you.

No reason to get personal, call people rabbits, go on and on about how you wish it was. Things are the way they are currently, and I am better informed, because you generously provided me with your evidence and opinions. Despite this, I will still take the risk on this one.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Piet had me at "Here's an audio example..." and lost me at "...surely the worst-sounding most useless in the history of civilization."


----------



## Parsifal666

Does anyone else here ever take time to compose music?


----------



## givemenoughrope

NoamL said:


> slowly raises hand


That settles that I guess


----------



## Wally Garten

Parsifal666 said:


> Does anyone else here ever take time to compose music?



It's an interesting idea, for sure....


----------



## DerGeist

Parsifal666 said:


> Does anyone else here ever take time to compose music?


----------



## Levon

The only thing I can take away from all this discussion is that I no longer have a clue whether or not I should buy the library now! I was ready to hit the Buy button but now I don’t know who to believe. Help!


----------



## NYC Composer

Parsifal666 said:


> There are very interesting points here, but (putting aside for a second the words regarding the developers) does any of this seem dismissive and condescending to the _*buyers*_? I have a hard time believing a good portion of this forum are blind SA sycophants...otherwise I'd never come here.
> 
> But hey, if that's what you think then more power to you (it doesn't exactly hurt my feelings). I remain grateful for your audio examples.


Sadly, you and I disagree vehemently on this point.

For unseen and unheard products:"Take my money! Here's my wallet!" Mmm.


----------



## NYC Composer

visiblenoise said:


> Software that doesn't 100% live up to expectations? No way!


What's the acceptable line? 80%? 70%? 38%?
You can't re-sell them.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Levon said:


> The only thing I can take away from all this discussion is that I no longer have a clue whether or not I should buy the library now! I was ready to hit the Buy button but now I don’t know who to believe. Help!


It’s up to you! All internet advice is loaded and should be taken with a dollop of salt. Don’t let anyone here dictate your buying choices!

Edit: And with the irony of telling people not to listen to advice whilst giving advice ringing in my head, I’m bailing on this crazy, fun thread. Enjoy your brass! (Or not. )
A


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Levon said:


> The only thing I can take away from all this discussion is that I no longer have a clue whether or not I should buy the library now! I was ready to hit the Buy button but now I don’t know who to believe. Help!



For the sale prices, you could take a chance on it without regret. Hell, $119 for Brass....and $149 for the strings? That is an incredible deal IMO, just have a look at the walkthrough's on the Spitfire site (where they are being used/programmed as intended). Of course there are going to be some anomalies, but so does every library. I think this whole thread started out reasonable, but soon became the inevitable gong show. Use your own judgment, do some searching on YouTube, the demos are all there.


----------



## NYC Composer

(where they are being used/programmed as intended)

....over an unknown period of time, using processing you may not have, by composers who have access to information you don't and may well be programming geniuses. I refer you to Andy Blaney, Troels Folmann, Thomas Bergersen, Piet De Ridder if he was so inclined, etc etc.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Y'all got any of those Spitfire libraries......​


----------



## Denkii

Hey look who I found...


----------



## Denkii

givemenoughrope said:


> Oh...you're new here. That's fine.


Good observation and very inclusive and important of course. I am also quite new on earth so maybe you can help me figure out how this whole "coming up with opinions" thing works?
Not just any, only the right ones of course. You seem to have figured that out way more than I have so far.


----------



## Parsifal666

NYC Composer said:


> Sadly, you and I disagree vehemently on this point.



I can live with that, my friend. Not sure what's sad about it.


----------



## amadeus1

miket said:


> Awesome. I'll be there on opening day! It's just too bad for my wallet that the Pro edition seems to be necessary right off the bat, for my needs, unlike with the strings.


What do you need in the professional version that's not in the basic version?


----------



## Parsifal666

amadeus1 said:


> What do you need in the professional version that's not in the basic version?


Have you checked the website for basic comparisons?


----------



## amadeus1

amadeus1 said:


> What do you need in the professional version that's not in the basic version?


Double the instruments and 3 times the solo instruments plus more than double mic positions, I guess it's worth it for sure.


----------



## amadeus1

amadeus1 said:


> Double the instruments and 3 times the solo instruments plus more than double mic positions, I guess it's worth it for sure.


Usually it's just mic positions for regular to professional for Spitfire. Guess they realize people will go professional if they leave out instruments in the regular version and only include them in the pro version.


----------



## Lode_Runner

I quite like the thought of being a sedated rabbit, sitting around a cosy lantern, sharing the company of other sedated rabbits. Sounds like a lovely way to spend an evening.


----------



## Parsifal666

amadeus1 said:


> Usually it's just mic positions for regular to professional for Spitfire. Guess they realize people will go professional if they leave out instruments in the regular version and only include them in the pro version.


But it gives people something to complain about.


----------



## Parsifal666

NYC Composer said:


> What's the acceptable line? 80%? 70%? 38%?
> You can't re-sell them.


This is a really good point. Studio pro brass is almost finished downloading woo-hoo!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Parsifal666 said:


> This is a really good point. Studio pro brass is almost finished downloading woo-hoo!



I bought Studio Brass and Strings (core). I know they're not meant to be a "workhorse" library, but at this price it's too good to pass up. The walkthrough vids by Paul are excellent (as are the videos by @Cory Pelizzari), I think these are great sounding libraries....but that's just my 2 cents. Both libraries have a solid place in my workflow, and will get used alongside Hollywood Orchestra among others. This whole thread is ridiculous, seriously.


----------



## NYC Composer

Parsifal666 said:


> I can live with that, my friend. Not sure what's sad about it.


Figure of speech. I can live with it easily


----------



## Sean

I am a bit tempted by Spitfire Studio Brass Pro for the Euphonium (obviously the other stuff too but I'd like a nice euphonium patch.) Can anyone comment on the euph in this library?


----------



## gtrwll

Wolfie2112 said:


> For the sale prices, you could take a chance on it without regret. Hell, $119 for Brass....and $149 for the strings?



Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but for me throwing $149 or $119 - hell, even $50 - on any kind of a product that I end up not using would not be without regret.

I think this has been an enlightening thread. As we can't demo the products ourselves, it's important to see and hear all the good and bad that we might get when buying the library.


----------



## Parsifal666

Just getting into this library. One thing I've noticed is how much I like the sound of Trumpet 1 with ALL the mics except Ambient (muted) turned all the way up. I have to be sparing in the use of the dynamics slider when doing so, though.

I compared the sound produced by this maxing out with EWH Brass' trumpet and the results were more than impressive on the part of the SA.

French Horn 1 reacted similarly...I must say, it seems to me that the only thing I have to complain about in regard to this library is how inferior the Core library is to this. It's a no contest, and I can't recommend strongly enough that folks whom are thinking about this library should think hard before buying the Core library...now is the time to go all the way with the wish list sale on.


----------



## Apostate

Parsifal666 said:


> Just getting into this library. One thing I've noticed is how much I like the sound of Trumpet 1 with ALL the mics except Ambient (muted) turned all the way up. I have to be sparing in the use of the dynamics slider when doing so, though.
> 
> I compared the sound produced by this maxing out with EWH Brass' trumpet and the results were more than impressive on the part of the SA.
> 
> French Horn 1 reacted similarly...I must say, it seems to me that the only thing I have to complain about in regard to this library is how inferior the Core library is to this. It's a no contest, and I can't recommend strongly enough that folks whom are thinking about this library should think hard before buying the Core library...now is the time to go all the way with the wish list sale on.



I have the Core and can't say I care for it anywhere near as much as the woodwinds from the same series. Your post is definitely aiming me toward Pro Brass, though.

I personally thought the Core in the woodwinds was very nice, though of course when I went Pro I was delighted. The close mics and extra instruments are great and really good, respectively, and I've found use for the outriggers on projects.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Parsifal666 said:


> Just getting into this library. One thing I've noticed is how much I like the sound of Trumpet 1 with ALL the mics except Ambient (muted) turned all the way up. I have to be sparing in the use of the dynamics slider when doing so, though.
> 
> I compared the sound produced by this maxing out with EWH Brass' trumpet and the results were more than impressive on the part of the SA.
> 
> French Horn 1 reacted similarly...I must say, it seems to me that the only thing I have to complain about in regard to this library is how inferior the Core library is to this. It's a no contest, and I can't recommend strongly enough that folks whom are thinking about this library should think hard before buying the Core library...now is the time to go all the way with the wish list sale on.





Apostate said:


> I have the Core and can't say I care for it anywhere near as much as the woodwinds from the same series. Your post is definitely aiming me toward Pro Brass, though.
> 
> I personally thought the Core in the woodwinds was very nice, though of course when I went Pro I was delighted. The close mics and extra instruments are great and really good, respectively, and I've found use for the outriggers on projects.




That's very interesting. I only have the core versions of brass and woodwinds and don't like them. So are the optional mics really worth it? I think especially for the woodwinds it would be beneficial.


----------



## gamma-ut

A little EQ and reverb go a long way - and opt for the close end rather than the far end of the mic mix slider. From what I've worked with so far (and it has not been for long), this is kinda how studio-tracked instruments sound. They do need a bit of massaging in the mix.


----------



## Parsifal666

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> That's very interesting. I only have the core versions of brass and woodwinds and don't like them. So are the optional mics really worth it? I think especially for the woodwinds it would be beneficial.



Well, it's hard for me to recommend you go bigger with something you don't like. Kind of like a "I hate MacDonald's cheeseburgers, so maybe I should try a Big Mac". More and different dressing and twice the meat, but ultimately a cheeseburger.

However, I must agree with Apo that the difference between the Core and Pro in the Studio Brass is revelatory. Others might see it differently, so the only thing I recommend is to check out other opinions.


----------



## AllanH

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> That's very interesting. I only have the core versions of brass and woodwinds and don't like them. So are the optional mics really worth it? I think especially for the woodwinds it would be beneficial.



I find the Tree mics sort of flat and "bland". I think its important to remember that these are studio instruments and specifically recorded to be dry with minimal room. It's not AIR and no amount of EQ can make them sounds like being recorded in AIR. 

However, the additional mics and the stereo mix do make a substantial difference, and placing the stereo mix in a bigger reverb can easily make the studio instruments fit in a more orchestral setting. The stereo mix itself is imo a better starting point for a good studio sound, and is my default.


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> I must say, it seems to me that the only thing I have to complain about in regard to this library is how inferior the Core library is to this. It's a no contest, and I can't recommend strongly enough that folks whom are thinking about this library should think hard before buying the Core library...now is the time to go all the way with the wish list sale on.


Yes, I would agree that you get a lot more content with the Pro version. I noticed this immediately when they announced it. It is also reasonably comprehensive. It would be nice to have a flugelhorn and Wagner tubas (which Studio Brass does not have).



Sean said:


> I am a bit tempted by Spitfire Studio Brass Pro for the Euphonium (obviously the other stuff too but I'd like a nice euphonium patch.) Can anyone comment on the euph in this library?


I haven't yet spent lots of time with the euphonium, so caveats and all that, but I like the general tone quite a lot, especially its upper range. Christian features the euphonium somewhat in his contextual video for the professional version.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> Y It would be nice to have Wagner tubas.



Why do I get the feeling you knew full well what I'd think as soon as I read this?


----------



## Parsifal666

AllanH said:


> I find the Tree mics sort of flat and "bland". I think its important to remember that these are studio instruments and specifically recorded to be dry with minimal room. It's not AIR and no amount of EQ can make them sounds like being recorded in AIR.
> 
> However, the additional mics and the stereo mix do make a substantial difference, and placing the stereo mix in a bigger reverb can easily make the studio instruments fit in a more orchestral setting. The stereo mix itself is imo a better starting point for a good studio sound, and is my default.



I so agree with this, Allan.

As much as I love and respect SA, to me the core Brass is not worth it...even at sale price.


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> Why do I get the feeling you knew full well what I'd think as soon as I read this?


Still looking for a good Wagner Tuba! The ones in Ark 2 are only ok and a3.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> Still looking for a good Wagner Tuba! The ones in Ark 2 are only ok and a3.



Hey I like those! I do wish they could be much more powerful, but hey that's Ark 2.

Ever stop to think that it's kind of lame OT didn't include Wagner tubas in Ark 1? Where would they work better than OTT?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Parsifal666 said:


> Well, it's hard for me to recommend you go bigger with something you don't like. Kind of like a "I hate MacDonald's cheeseburgers, so maybe I should try a Big Mac". More and different dressing and twice the meat, but ultimately a cheeseburger.
> 
> However, I must agree with Apo that the difference between the Core and Pro in the Studio Brass is revelatory. Others might see it differently, so the only thing I recommend is to check out other opinions.



Concerning brass: Maybe I have problems with the dry sound, but I like Hollywood Brass for example. I don't like the horn ensemble legato, it has a slow response. I thought that maybe with a closer mic you have less.

Concerning woodwinds: In general I like the sound, but thought that maybe with a closer mic you have a bit more detail with the legato transitions.

Usually I tend to use close(r) mics in other libraries, because I like this crispier tone. I also have the pro version of the strings. Probably it's just the decca tree which I don't like, but, on the other hand, the stereo mixes are great.


----------



## Parsifal666

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Concerning brass: Maybe I have problems with the dry sound, but I like Hollywood Brass for example. I don't like the horn ensemble legato, it has a slow response. I thought that maybe with a closer mic you have less.
> 
> Concerning woodwinds: In general I like the sound, but thought that maybe with a closer mic you have a bit more detail with the legato transitions.
> 
> Usually I tend to use close(r) mics in other libraries, because I like this crispier tone. I also have the pro version of the strings. Probably it's just the decca tree which I don't like, because, on the other hand, the stereo mixes are great.



Hollywood Brass is great (especially for ensemble imo but not necessarily just that). If you have the Diamond you might end up like me and kind of hesitating on Studio Pro. I can safely say after my first couple of runs through the latter that I not only have no regrets about having both, but am damn glad of it. Each in some ways complements the other. Imo.


----------



## Sean

jbuhler said:


> I haven't yet spent lots of time with the euphonium, so caveats and all that, but I like the general tone quite a lot, especially its upper range. Christian features the euphonium somewhat in his contextual video for the professional version.


Thanks. Just watched Christian's video, it sounded quite nice. I'm certainly tempted...


----------



## Lcas

Don't want to distract from the main focus of the thread, but I got about 60 hours till this is finished downloading.

Been watching different YouTubes for some help with the whole orchestral music thing. This one has some pretty neat tips. Any books, websites, videos you guys can share?


----------



## sostenuto

Parsifal666 said:


> Just getting into this library. *******I must say, it seems to me that the only thing I have to complain about in regard to this library is how inferior the Core library is to this. It's a no contest, and I can't recommend strongly enough that folks whom are thinking about this library should think hard before buying the Core library...now is the time to go all the way with the wish list sale on.



Find Jennifer G's '*What's in your wallet?*' far more enticing ………


----------



## Parsifal666

sostenuto said:


> Find Jennifer G's '*What's in your wallet?*' far more enticing ………


Shhhhhh!


----------



## Sean

@Parsifal666 curious about your further experimentation with SStB Pro in comparison to HWB. I have HWB and CSB and really only want a euphonium patch but if there is not too much overlap between these three libs I could see myself getting it.


----------



## Mr. Ha

Lcas said:


> Don't want to distract from the main focus of the thread, but I got about 60 hours till this is finished downloading.
> 
> Been watching different YouTubes for some help with the whole orchestral music thing. This one has some pretty neat tips. Any books, websites, videos you guys can share?



I remember this episode! Leopold!


----------



## Parsifal666

Sean said:


> @Parsifal666 curious about your further experimentation with SStB Pro in comparison to HWB. I have HWB and CSB and really only want a euphonium patch but if there is not too much overlap between these three libs I could see myself getting it.



There isn't and to be blunt (though there's a good part I haven't explored yet) I like the solo trumpets better. I really appreciate the bass trumpet as well; I was fishing around for a solo version in my other libraries for one and came up short, luckily this one is the bomb.

I must say also, that the instruments missing from HWB in comparison to SStB are smile-bringingly nice to have.

But I have a while to go before I can produce more definitive statements in regard to the library.

I probably (irritatingly) mentioned this already, but HWB was my biggest stumbling block to getting this. Now I feel both relieved and a little silly, there's plenty enough in SStB to inspire beyond that library.

Of course, I won't exactly be putting my HWB up with the mothballs anytime soon. Just two great libraries, period...imo


----------



## Sean

Parsifal666 said:


> There isn't and to be blunt (though there's a good part I haven't explored yet) I like the solo trumpets better. I really appreciate the bass trumpet as well; I was fishing around for a solo version in my other libraries for one and came up short, luckily this one is the bomb.
> 
> I must say also, that the instruments missing from HWB in comparison to SStB are smile-bringingly nice to have.
> 
> But I have a while to go before I can produce more definitive statements in regard to the library.
> 
> I probably (irritatingly) mentioned this already, but HWB was my biggest stumbling block to getting this. Now I feel both relieved and a little silly, there's plenty enough in SStB to inspire beyond that library.
> 
> Of course, I won't exactly be putting my HWB up with the mothballs anytime soon. Just two great libraries, period...imo


Perfect thank you. Wanted your opinion since we share the same taste in loving HWB.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Parsifal666 said:


> Of course, I won't exactly be putting my HWB up with the mothballs anytime soon.



Good to hear! I have been using HB for years, and every time I snoop around for something that might be better...I'm reminded again how damn good that library is. The only thing I've see that might be better (as a main brass library) is Cinematic Studio Brass. Spitfire Studio Brass (Core in my case) is certainly a nice compliment to HB, it fills the gaps.


----------



## gussunkri

I have now finally had my first session with Studio Brass core (and I got to spend some more time with the Studio Woodwinds). I was immediately inspired to start playing, which is a good sign. I am a beginner so I am probably doing Spitfire a great disservice by sharing what I played. However, if someone is curious how Studio brass core and Studio woodwinds core sounds like in the hands of a beginner, and more or less out off the box, then this might be a good guide. I did cheat a little by adding 1. Valhalla room reverb, and 2. apply some light mastering eq and compressor.

All sounds are from either Studio brass core or Studio woodwinds core.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/orchestral-after-the-fact-alpha-mp3.19960/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Parsifal666

gussunkri said:


> I have now finally had my first session with Studio Brass core (and I got to spend some more time with the Studio Woodwinds). I was immediately inspired to start playing, which is a good sign. I am a beginner so I am probably doing Spitfire a great disservice by sharing what I played. However, if someone is curious how Studio brass core and Studio woodwinds core sounds like in the hands of a beginner, and more or less out off the box, then this might be a good guide. I did cheat a little by adding 1. Valhalla room reverb, and 2. apply some light mastering eq and compressor.
> 
> All sounds are from either Studio brass core or Studio woodwinds core.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/orchestral-after-the-fact-alpha-mp3.19960/][/AUDIOPLUS]



I think I'd recognize Valhalla anywhere. Sounds like you and I each got similarly inspired by those libraries  

I would like to mention how in love I am with the Mahlerian "Bells Up" in this lib; one of my favorite brass patches from _*any*_ library.


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> I would like to mention how in love I am with the Mahlerian "Bells Up" in this lib; one of my favorite brass patches from _*any*_ library


The bells up patch is nice and raucous. SSB also has an excellent bells up patch.


----------



## gussunkri

Parsifal666 said:


> I think I'd recognize Valhalla anywhere. Sounds like you and I each got similarly inspired by those libraries
> 
> I would like to mention how in love I am with the Mahlerian "Bells Up" in this lib; one of my favorite brass patches from _*any*_ library.


Thanks for the tip! I haven't gotten around to try that yet. Will do!


----------



## StillLife

Parsifal666 said:


> I think I'd recognize Valhalla anywhere. Sounds like you and I each got similarly inspired by those libraries
> 
> I would like to mention how in love I am with the Mahlerian "Bells Up" in this lib; one of my favorite brass patches from _*any*_ library.




@Parsifal666: As i know you own and love the BHCT library: is the brass quality of the Studio series on par with the quality of the brass in BHCT, you think?


----------



## Sean

I'm writing this to convince myself I need to hold off on this library since I still need to upgrade my SSD storage space. Maybe next sale...


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Sean said:


> I'm writing this to convince myself I need to hold off on this library since I still need to upgrade my SSD storage space. Maybe next sale...


I have mine on a 7200


----------



## Sean

Wolfie2112 said:


> I have mine on a 7200


I do currently as well so looking to speed things up


----------



## Parsifal666

StillLife said:


> @Parsifal666: As i know you own and love the BHCT library: is the brass quality of the Studio series on par with the quality of the brass in BHCT, you think?


It's hard for me to say better because I had a major love affair with that 8 horn ensemble. That said, you have more options and individual instruments in Studio, and more than a few of them are damn good. One of the things that sold me on the library was seeing how easily the Studio works with the BH... Especially the Professional version. And that goes for both the woodwinds and brass BTW.


----------



## josephspirits

Parsifal666 said:


> It's hard for me to say better because I had a major love affair with that 8 horn ensemble. That said, you have more options and individual instruments in Studio, and more than a few of them are damn good. One of the things that sold me on the library was seeing how easily the Studio works with the BH... Especially the Professional version. And that goes for both the woodwinds and brass BTW.



This is what I’ve been wanting to hear but also fearing. I love using the Studio Woodwinds with BHCT, and have been fighting the urge all week to get Studio Brass and possibly the strings to really open up my options for detail. I feel like I have so many strings already but the more I have used BHCT this past year the more that studio sound has become my go to. I really was hoping studio brass might be as enjoyable as the woodwinds for me but a lot of the negative talk has made me wonder if I should hold off. I also know that whatever I don’t get now I’ll probably cave for in the holiday sales next winter. 

Do the studio strings feel as good to play as BHCT strings?


----------



## Parsifal666

josephspirits said:


> Do the studio strings feel as good to play as BHCT strings?



I'm curious in regard to this as well.


----------



## Lcas

Sean said:


> I'm writing this to convince myself I need to hold off on this library since I still need to upgrade my SSD storage space. Maybe next sale...


I got a 512GB for ~$55 since it wouldn't quite fit the one I had. Waiting to install till after done downloading, only 6 hours to go. So crazy that they are reasonably priced now


----------



## jononotbono

Lode_Runner said:


> I quite like the thought of being a sedated rabbit, sitting around a cosy lantern, sharing the company of other sedated rabbits. Sounds like a lovely way to spend an evening.



It is. Tony says hi!


----------



## Parsifal666

jononotbono said:


> It is. Tony says hi!



BUNNY YAY!

+8,000,000


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> @SpitfireSupport Here's something from the solo trumpet that could be fixed. Hear the last couple of notes? I have the MT slider maxed, but no adjustment seems to fix it. It also weirds me out some that there isn't a release slider featured with this. I tried the velocity, everything. It sound even worse with the horn, which is a shame because I think the idea behind those patches is pretty killer.
> 
> P.S. the patches seem fine with SStWWs.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/studio-brass-pro-multi-tongue-boo-boo-mp3.20078/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I'm not sure what you are trying for here, but reducing the velocity on the antepenultimate and especially the penultimate notes will get less of the flaring effect (velocity on this patch controls the the final note, and CC1 controls dynamics. Anything below velocity 60 seems to work better than the example you posted and then add a high velocity on the final note).

One problem I've always had with these multitongue patches—and this is true of SSB as well—is repetitions, say you want 6 or 9 triple tongue articulations in a row on the same note (so two or three triggers of the triple tongue note). I've never been able to get it to sound right and often go back to mixing in single articulations even though that doesn't sound quite right either. Does anyone have a good trick for this?


----------



## The Darris

jbuhler said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying for here, but reducing the velocity on the antepenultimate and especially the penultimate notes will get less of the flaring effect (velocity on this patch controls the the final note, and CC1 controls dynamics. Anything below velocity 60 seems to work better than the example you posted and then add a high velocity on the final note).
> 
> One problem I've always had with these multitongue patches—and this is true of SSB as well—is repetitions, say you want 6 or 9 triple tongue articulations in a row on the same note (so two or three triggers of the triple tongue note). I've never been able to get it to sound right and often go back to mixing in single articulations even though that doesn't sound quite right either. Does anyone have a good trick for this?


The trick is to simply use the Multi-Tongue patches as one shots versus creating a rhythmic phrase. Spitfire's approach wasn't for creating long phrases but rather pickup notes or ending phrases for Brass. Your best best it to do as you suggested by just sequencing the phrases versus relying on the Multi-Tongue patches to construct the phrase. I simply use the Multi-Tongue patch to layer over the endings of my phrases whenever I am doing multi-tongue type work. It gives me the realism on those little moments since they stick out the most when writing at high dynamics.


----------



## jbuhler

The Darris said:


> The trick is to simply use the Multi-Tongue patches as one shots versus creating a rhythmic phrase. Spitfire's approach wasn't for creating long phrases but rather pickup notes or ending phrases for Brass. Your best best it to do as you suggested by just sequencing the phrases versus relying on the Multi-Tongue patches to construct the phrase. I simply use the Multi-Tongue patch to layer over the endings of my phrases whenever I am doing multi-tongue type work. It gives me the realism on those little moments since they stick out the most when writing at high dynamics.


Thanks! Good to know I wasn't missing something, though I also wish I was doing something wrong so I could render these passages more effectively.


----------



## The Darris

jbuhler said:


> Thanks! Good to know I wasn't missing something, though I also wish I was doing something wrong so I could render these passages more effectively.


There are quite a few things that Spitfire could do to make their flagship Brass library better. One would be to add shorter staccatissimo samples to all the main lead instruments such as the Trumpets, Horns, and Trombones. The lower brass don't really need it but it's always welcome. They added these to one of the horn sections, a2 I think. These are great for using in the Ostinatum for those fast multi-tonguing phrases that you can really sequence with the current shortest articulations. The focus of these samples should be tightly edited and cut samples for the sole purpose of extremely fast tonguing. Techniques like that, which are common with Brass, just aren't very convincing or even doable with the current content in their Symphonic Brass.


----------



## jbuhler

The Darris said:


> There are quite a few things that Spitfire could do to make their flagship Brass library better. One would be to add shorter staccatissimo samples to all the main lead instruments such as the Trumpets, Horns, and Trombones. The lower brass don't really need it but it's always welcome. They added these to one of the horn sections, a2 I think. These are great for using in the Ostinatum for those fast multi-tonguing phrases that you can really sequence with the current shortest articulations. The focus of these samples should be tightly edited and cut samples for the sole purpose of extremely fast tonguing. Techniques like that, which are common with Brass, just aren't very convincing or even doable with the current content in their Symphonic Brass.


Yes, I agree.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Spitfire Studio Brass bounced to the top of my list last night, after finally realizing (with egg on my face) that my problems with it stemmed from not realizing that Spitfire uses the Dynamic control as the main dynamic layer switcher, as opposed to being a "limiter" for available dynamic range (as in some other products). I found the latest user manual, and it is described fairly clearly there.

Up until that pivotal moment, I was ready to bounce back to VSL Brass (and Dimension Brass), as I didn't quite get the dynamic range out of Chris Hein Orchestral Brass after a lot of work (probably ALSO user error, even though I've read that user manual in depth countless times).

Now that I know to use the Dynamic control dynamically as opposed to a static setting that I thought determined the scaling of dynamics from Note On Velocity (apparently not how Spitfire works), I found that I was able to create the widest palette of sounds of any brass ensemble library that I own (solo brass is another matter and will be dealt with separately). I am able to get a timbral range from VSL to Chris Hein and everything in between.

Furthermore, the mic blend options from Spitfire are marvelous, so until VSL does a Synchron Brass library, I think this is going to be my top choice, just as it recently took over from VSL in my primary template for Orchestral String Ensembles (especially with its divisi flexibility).

As there are now 42 pages to this thread, I don't have the time during working hours to skim back over what was written before (perhaps I even contributed to the thread earlier as well), to determine whether those who have trashed this library mercilessly, perhaps had the same misunderstanding that I did about how Spitfire uses Note On Velocity, Expression, and Dynamics (CC1) in these libraries.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

The next thing I plan to do, tonight or later this week, is explore the new articulation matrix that Spitfire is trying to standardize across all products and even other companies. I didn't really quite comprehend from the drop-list in the GUI what was meant by those choices, and had not previously read that part of the newer user manuals. So as long as the articulations load instantly (or can be flagged to pre-load, as in VSL Synchron Player), for real-time playing and rendering, I have even more reason to start emphasizing Spitfire in my templates and workflow.

It's interesting to watch how Spitfire and VSL are sort of converging in many ways, with the Synchron Player from VSL and the GUI evolution of Spitfire's libraries over the past few years.


----------



## Apostate

StillLife said:


> @Parsifal666: As i know you own and love the BHCT library: is the brass quality of the Studio series on par with the quality of the brass in BHCT, you think?



I would say so, sure. It's a different tone on some patches, though. For instance, when you line up the four horns from SStB with the 8 horn patch in BHCT it doesn't sound particularly like a logical doubling up of the instruments...they both sound like the ensembles specified, however the SStBs can be more crisp and bright. That said, I suppose a somewhat darker sound is to be expected (and probably even desired) from a library with Bernard Herrmann's name on it.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

I have played with the UACC feature tonight, and do not care for it overall. There are many reasons for this.

It is nothing like a Preset for VSL or Synchron Player, in that only articulations that are loaded for a specific Spitfire preset are available, and this of course means you have to pre-load them all to see what's in them
The naming conventions are inconsistent; for example staccatissimo in the GUI maps to spiccato in the UACC spec, so this leads to further disconnects and opportunity for error (i.e. no samples loaded)
Unless one is working only with libraries that implement UACC, one has to start from scratch rather than quickly map key switches between different vendors when comparing and/or doubling
Neither the CC32 approach, not the UACC key switch approach in conjunction with Note On Velocity, lends itself well either to live playing (lack of tactile precision) nor to quick editing in a DAW
It's an interesting concept though, and at least the Appendix E for the UACC spec in the latest user documents, does give us a quick overview of which articulations we might expect to find SOMEWHERE in each library.

I am instead going to look at advanced patches that combine different articulations that aren't in the main default patches, as this is a bit more like VSL's Matrix setups at least, so may prove useful.

Possibly the UACC approach is a substitute for offering a true equivalent to the VSL Preset or the demand-load based Synchron Player Preset, so that one doesn't have to re-map the key switches if changing to another advanced patch.


----------



## BezO

Being new to Spitfire, I realize I have a lot to learn. Great info (& opinions) in this thread!


----------



## Mark Schmieder

A bit annoying that there's no Legato articulation in the Basic Set, once you go to the Advanced patches directory. Luckily, for section work vs. solo work, I don't necessarily need a lot of articulations, so I'm back to the main preset for the Horns and Trombones.

The Legato articulation(s) is/are on their own. It was too late at night for me to have the energy to figure out whether that specific preset includes ALL of the Legato patches, or just one (as in the main preset). The pop-up help seemed to indicate that it collects several Legatos, even with just one icon for manual selection, but I didn't see additional key switches; maybe it's done via Note On Velocity for the key switch itself, as in the KS versions of UACC.

I may find the Extended Set (or whatever it's called; I'm doing this from memory with no access to any sources to look at), useful for some upcoming work. The thing is, I rarely use this stuff in isolation, and I do NOT want to set up Multi's in Kontakt and have more than one note track per part -- that's how I used to do things before I got more adept at VSL's more advanced techniques.


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

If the pop-up help is mentioning more legato articulations that you're not seeing anywhere, I think that would be an oversight. The same UI and help system are used in a lot of other Spitfire libraries, some of which do have more legato artics that can be switched between.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

It's possible that the brass only have one legato available. I was looking at the UACC list to try to get an overview of what all is likely to be available. I'll see if I can find consolidated and library-specific articulation lists in the user docs, and if not there, on the web (not my preference while doing work, as browsers are resource-heavy). I've really been spoiled by focusing mostly on VSL for so long.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

The solo trumpet legato is one of the best I’ve heard.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

I haven't tried the solo brass yet; I'll be doing that this weekend. I'm wrapping up final rendering of ensemble and section work first, as that's where I felt VSL was a bit weak in terms of realism of phrasing (though probably it's just my incompetence). I am astounded at the quality of legatos even in the brass sections in this Spitfire library, so I look forward to trying the Solo Trumpet legato!


----------



## Loïc D

Mark Schmieder said:


> The naming conventions are inconsistent; for example staccatissimo in the GUI maps to spiccato in the UACC spec, so this leads to further disconnects and opportunity for error (i.e. no samples loaded)
> 
> Unless one is working only with libraries that implement UACC, one has to start from scratch rather than quickly map key switches between different vendors when comparing and/or doubling


For what it's worth, I partially covered those points in this thread that features my UACC reworked list provided you use Logic Pro X.
https://vi-control.net/community/th...ulations-plist-link-to-dl.81945/#post-4386986

SStB has one type of legato for each instrument. Generally, for each instruments, I did a separate Kontakt instance featuring Legato + Core + Decorative techniques triggered by UACC KS.
Still I get annoyed sometimes by having 2 patches playing even after choosing 1 artic (typically, the legato patch plays along another artic). I'm far from expert in Kontakt & Logic Pro X.
I found out that clicking on the small <-CC-> symbol bottom left of the interface fixes the unwanted legato.
Besides, my system runs at the edge of possible performance, with saturated RAM & heavy CPU work (due to saturated RAM...). So my glitches might come from overall performance issue.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Cool; I missed that thread the first time around (probably not understanding its title at the time, or maybe because I don't use Logic except for certain MIDI conversion functions such as Note On Velocity to MIDI CC, and for Alchemy access).

I'll take a look at it tonight or this weekend anyway though. I'm terrible at Logic (I use DP, and also own S1 and Cubase but rarely use those two either). But I might be able to gain some insight and useful lessons from what you did nonetheless.

And yes, I also discovered the utility of the small "<-CC->" button last night.


----------



## Mark Schmieder

Good call-out on the "bells up" articulation, which I hadn't noticed until it was mentioned here. I tried it a couple of nights ago on the Horn Section, but it was well past midnight and I was using monitors at super-low volume vs. headphones. I was surprised by the subtlety of the difference, but I'll try that articulation on other brass soon, and at higher volume (and or stronger dynamic layer).


----------



## sevensuns

Don't mean to necro this thread, but I was wondering if anyone here uses Spitfire Studio Brass as their core brass library? I have Studio Strings (core version, not pro) and they are pretty nice, for the price especially. I am in need of brass, and dont have a big budget. I have seen a lot of bashing of Spitfire Studio Brass on here and Cory was also not too optimistic about it in his review, so I am hesitating to get it. Do you guys think the core version of SStB could make for a good core brass library?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

sevensuns said:


> Do you guys think the core version of SStB could make for a good core brass library?



Definitely not. It is very limited in that regard (even the pro version). It's really good for flourishes and embellishments, but that's pretty much it. As a core library, I would look at something like Hollywood Brass Gold or Cinematic Studio Brass.


----------



## sevensuns

Wolfie2112 said:


> Definitely not. It is very limited in that regard (even the pro version). It's really good for flourishes and embellishments, but that's pretty much it. As a core library, I would look at something like Hollywood Brass Gold or Cinematic Studio Brass.



I see. Could you give me a TLDR of why that is? Does it not handle the basic articulations well? Or a problem with dynamics?


----------



## jbuhler

sevensuns said:


> I see. Could you give me a TLDR of why that is? Does it not handle the basic articulations well? Or a problem with dynamics?


I find Studio Brass very quirky (I have the pro version). Poorly matched levels between shorts and sustains (a general issue with the Studio series), the sustain and legato patches have very bumpy transitions between dynamic layers (much more so than the strings or woodwinds), sour notes here and there, and I personally dislike the sound of both of the solo horns. I bought the library as a supplement to SSB (since Studio Brass Pro has articulations (especially mutes) and some additional instruments not included in SSB), and for that purpose it works well. But compared to other libraries I think Studio Brass would take a lot of work to use as a base library.


----------



## sevensuns

jbuhler said:


> I find Studio Brass very quirky (I have the pro version). Poorly matched levels between shorts and sustains (a general issue with the Studio series), the sustain and legato patches have very bumpy transitions between dynamic layers (much more so than the strings or woodwinds), sour notes here and there, and I personally dislike the sound of both of the solo horns. I bought the library as a supplement to SSB (since Studio Brass Pro has articulations (especially mutes) and some additional instruments not included in SSB), and for that purpose it works well. But compared to other libraries I think Studio Brass would take a lot of work to use as a base library.



Thanks, that's good to know. I think I will skip out on it then. I have the strings I find them to be quite alright and they have a lot of articulations (even the core version, which I have). Do you make good use of the strings or woodwinds from the studio series, if you happen to have those?


----------



## paulthomson

If you are interested in seeing it working in context Sevensuns, have a look here:



Also this month's Sound on Sound has a useful overview of the whole Studio line.


----------



## jbuhler

sevensuns said:


> Thanks, that's good to know. I think I will skip out on it then. I have the strings I find them to be quite alright and they have a lot of articulations (even the core version, which I have). Do you make good use of the strings or woodwinds from the studio series, if you happen to have those?


I don't have the woodwinds but do have the strings. I've been pleasantly surprised by the strings. Picked them up only because they were part of a big discount package when SF did their May wishlist sale but have found them a good addition to my string libraries. I have a similar issue in matching shorts and longs (which I mostly dealt with by going into Kontakt and modifying the keyboard response curve on the shorts).


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

sevensuns said:


> I see. Could you give me a TLDR of why that is? Does it not handle the basic articulations well? Or a problem with dynamics?



I agree with everything @jbuhler mentioned. The "horn" patches are strange, they almost sound like a synth or something. Probably the best patch is the solo trumpet, which sounds very realistic. 

The Strings and Woodwinds are excellent IMO.


----------



## dzilizzi

Wolfie2112 said:


> I agree with everything @jbuhler mentioned. The "horn" patches are strange, they almost sound like a synth or something. Probably the best patch is the solo trumpet, which sounds very realistic.
> 
> The Strings and Woodwinds are excellent IMO.


This is actually kind of funny. It is usually the woodwinds that sound awful.


----------



## sevensuns

Wolfie2112 said:


> I agree with everything @jbuhler mentioned. The "horn" patches are strange, they almost sound like a synth or something. Probably the best patch is the solo trumpet, which sounds very realistic.
> 
> The Strings and Woodwinds are excellent IMO.



That's a shame, horns are my favorite brass instrument as well.


----------



## jbuhler

dzilizzi said:


> This is actually kind of funny. It is usually the woodwinds that sound awful.


Opinion has been quite divided on the Studio Woodwinds library. 



sevensuns said:


> That's a shame, horns are my favorite brass instrument as well.


The extended individual articulations on the solo horns (horns up, stopped, etc.) are quite nice, and the four horn legato and sustain is much better imho than either of the solo versions. But yes overall the horns are a disappointment. The euphonium is also excellent (but only available in the pro version).


----------



## sevensuns

jbuhler said:


> Opinion has been quite divided on the Studio Woodwinds library.
> 
> 
> The extended individual articulations on the solo horns (horns up, stopped, etc.) are quite nice, and the four horn legato and sustain is much better imho than either of the solo versions. But yes overall the horns are a disappointment. The euphonium is also excellent (but only available in the pro version).



I do have the strings (core) they are pretty good. It's the only Spitfire product I own. But I probably wont be continuing my orchestral libraries with their products. The Studio series is nicely priced, but seems to be a bit messy with the scripting and issues you mentioned. Symphonic, Chamber libraries do sound quite nice, but they are also out of my preferred budget. I might use the Studio Strings every now and then, will see.


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## jbuhler

sevensuns said:


> I do have the strings (core) they are pretty good. It's the only Spitfire product I own. But I probably wont be continuing my orchestral libraries with their products. The Studio series is nicely priced, but seems to be a bit messy with the scripting and issues you mentioned. Symphonic, Chamber libraries do sound quite nice, but they are also out of my preferred budget. I might use the Studio Strings every now and then, will see.


I have a lot of SF products and find the wet libraries recorded in the big hall at Air generally suit my sensibilities. But there are lots of great libraries out there, and many are indeed available at lower cost.


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## dzilizzi

sevensuns said:


> I do have the strings (core) they are pretty good. It's the only Spitfire product I own. But I probably wont be continuing my orchestral libraries with their products. The Studio series is nicely priced, but seems to be a bit messy with the scripting and issues you mentioned. Symphonic, Chamber libraries do sound quite nice, but they are also out of my preferred budget. I might use the Studio Strings every now and then, will see.


I understand this. For the price, the EWHO sections are a much better deal, especially when you can get them for 60% off. Even the normal 50% is good. I would probably buy them over the Studio stuff. But I still prefer the SSO, which I finally picked up for 30% off the bundle (ended up at more than 40% off each section). The sound is great. And it is easier to use for me than EWHO. And it took me a few years of saving to get it.


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## sevensuns

dzilizzi said:


> I understand this. For the price, the EWHO sections are a much better deal, especially when you can get them for 60% off. Even the normal 50% is good. I would probably buy them over the Studio stuff. But I still prefer the SSO, which I finally picked up for 30% off the bundle (ended up at more than 40% off each section). The sound is great. And it is easier to use for me than EWHO. And it took me a few years of saving to get it.



Eastwest is great no doubt. I do much prefer working with Kontakt over PLAY though. And the EW libraries are pretty unintuitive, for me at least, and resource heavy (I have a pretty meh PC now, and not much RAM).


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## dzilizzi

sevensuns said:


> Eastwest is great no doubt. I do much prefer working with Kontakt over PLAY though. And the EW libraries are pretty unintuitive, for me at least, and resource heavy (I have a pretty meh PC now, and not much RAM).


If you are looking for non-resource heavy stuff, I would go with VSL Special Editions or whatever is replacing it. Though I think you can still get the bundles. Very light on the resources, very dry, and easy to use. But, not a lot of round robins if I remember correctly. I bought them for use on my laptop. I can load up a template with them without running out of RAM - though I do have 16 GB RAM on my laptop.


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## CT

As much as I appreciate the Studio series, I have to agree that the solo horns leave something to be desired. I'm very picky about horns though.


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## galactic orange

I was shocked the first time I heard Solo Horn 1. I thought it had to be a glitch or an error in downloading. But others share a similar opinion. I bought SStB anyway. I keep hoping that Spitfire will “fix it.”


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## sevensuns

jbuhler said:


> I don't have the woodwinds but do have the strings. I've been pleasantly surprised by the strings. Picked them up only because they were part of a big discount package when SF did their May wishlist sale but have found them a good addition to my string libraries. I have a similar issue in matching shorts and longs (which I mostly dealt with by going into Kontakt and modifying the keyboard response curve on the shorts).



Also, curious to know how you find the shorts to be in Studio Strings. I am using this library nowadays as a main string library but I feel the spiccatos can be a bit inconsistent sounding or have some round robins that seem to be noticeably louder. But maybe that's just me, but I feel something is off about the spiccatos. Havent tried the brushed ones and others that much yet.


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## sevensuns

galactic orange said:


> I was shocked the first time I heard Solo Horn 1. I thought it had to be a glitch or an error in downloading. But others share a similar opinion. I bought SStB anyway. I keep hoping that Spitfire will “fix it.”



Oh dear, is it that bad? As in, it sounds synth-y?


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## Pixelpoet1985

sevensuns said:


> Oh dear, is it that bad? As in, it sounds synth-y?



The legato transitions are very short, so that it sounds that there aren't any at all. And the dynamic range of the legatos is very narrow, too.


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## jbuhler

sevensuns said:


> Oh dear, is it that bad? As in, it sounds synth-y?


I don't think it sounds exactly synthy and I don't exactly dislike the sound, but horn 1 especially doesn't sound to me at all like a horn.


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## CT

Yeah, it's not awful or unusable or anything, but it's not what I look for in a horn.


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## galactic orange

miket said:


> Yeah, it's not awful or unusable or anything, but it's not what I look for in a horn.





jbuhler said:


> I don't think it sounds exactly synthy and I don't exactly dislike the sound, but horn 1 especially doesn't sound to me at all like a horn.


Those are fair ways of putting it. I used to play horn and still do a little. Maybe it’s just not the sound for me. It’s possible that it works better in a mix, but I haven’t used it yet.


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## gussunkri

I have been enjoying combining SStB core with Adventure Brass lately. I feel those two libraries complement one another in the sense that they each bring what the other lacks or is weak at.


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## Apostate

galactic orange said:


> Those are fair ways of putting it. I used to play horn and still do a little. Maybe it’s just not the sound for me. It’s possible that it works better in a mix, but I haven’t used it yet.



You might not find a place for it. SSB is my biggest disappointment purchase in several years.


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## gussunkri

Apostate said:


> You might not find a place for it. SSB is my biggest disappointment purchase in several years.


Is that studio brass or symphonic brass?


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## Apostate

gussunkri said:


> Is that studio brass or symphonic brass?




Sorry I meant SStB Pro.


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## jbuhler

I now use Studio Brass all the time as a supplement to Symphonic Brass. I find they work quite nicely together. I do think Studio Brass is uneven and somewhat difficult to use so I wouldn’t recommend it as a base brass library but I do like it as a supplemental library.


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