# Action cues - bane of my life...



## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2010)

As some of you will know, I'm not classically trained. I rely on ear and experimentation. This serves me pretty well for a lot of stuff, but some areas I consistently find more difficult than others. Jazz is one, and fast orchestral action is another. I think a link is that both tend to be harmonically very complex.

First of all, let me define the sort of cue I mean. Not Evolve type stuff, or cues that are heavily reliant on a big percussion loop (though goodness me they've got me out of some trouble before). I really want to try to get to grips with the better stuff that is less reliant on these crutches, based on the classic orchestral instruments and basic percussion accents.

Last week I tried to break down a very short section in an action cue from an excellent Hollywood score, really trying to analyse what was going on. Essentially, I failed. Some of it I got, and I did pick up a few ideas doing it. But other elements eluded me, especially the fast staccato brass. I know this will sound rubbish, but I honestly couldn't work out what notes they were playing! I'm pretty sure there were two harmonic elements, fast staccato and rising. It sounded perfect, but I simply couldn't recreate it... nothing sounded right. In the end what I did was MUCH better than one of my usual efforts and it worked very well with picture, but it wasn't quite what I was striving for. The good news was that it most certainly wasn't a rip off of the piece I was studying!

Now, it's not so much a specific answer to that specific problem I'm after, but just any ideas or techniques that are generally useful for this sort of cue, especially for someone like myself who isn't classically trained (no doubt the root of the problem). I know an answer is to go away and get classically trained (!) I haven't ruled out some private tuition focused on some specific areas such as this, actually. But my musical history isn't a good one with formal learning, after many years of learning piano I hit a brick wall in terms of sight reading etc. My brain definitely learns better by doing.... although some technique ideas I know would be very handy. Another thing which would be extremely useful is if any midi files exist of such pieces where I can try and better break down what is going on.

Any help VERY much appreciated! Thanks all.

EDIT - a little down this page, I decide to focus on mocking up a very short section of Kill Ring, from How To Train Your Dragon. The v2 of the mockup is here - http://www.box.net/shared/z1sag5eh6z and some orchestration changes in v5 here - http://www.box.net/shared/se1o1rvxkx]


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## Frank Luchs (Dec 1, 2010)

I have the same problems as you in analyzing those action scenes.
What helps is something like the Amazing-Slow-Downer to relisten with
Original-Pitch but slower tempo.

Also, these scenes are chaotic by design. In fast runs you will find narrow and biting intervals even between low brass and strings. My thinking is, the individual notes are not so important but to build an evolving 'Geflecht' (structure, netting ?) of consonances and dissonances.


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## handz (Dec 1, 2010)

I must say that action cuse are the easiest for me. What really causes me a problem are slow, string based, lots of legato strings progressions, romantic pieces....

One thing in soundtrack music is, that muisic usually sound more complicated than it is. I for example very like Killzone soundracks from Joris De Man, they are the music how I like it, and some parts are those fast action passages when you can hardly follow everything what is happening - but one day I´v tried for the first time to recompose one track with sample by ear...it wasn´t so hard surprisingly - and i found that the basic structure is very simple, what makes it sound complicated are added "fxs" runs, horn rips etc.

Im not musically trained also..


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2010)

Thing is, handz, in the cues I'm listening too there are very few fx. There is the odd rip or gliss here and there, but that's about it. I swear the stuff I'm struggling with is harmonically very complex.... it's not atonal though. Also time sigs seem to get really tricksy!

Funnily enough the string lines and romantic stuff comes reasonably naturally to me. Anything with the strong, bold clear thematic lead is good. We must have polar opposite compositional brains!


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## MichaelJM (Dec 1, 2010)

I'm curious, what do you mean when you say you're not classically trained? Do you mean you don't know music theory, or is it just you don't have a more complex understanding of the theory/counterpoint/orchestration behind classical music?

Also, would you be able to post an example of what you mean? I personally find it very difficult to copy something by ear. Ear training just wasn't my thing. Have you considered studying some action scores? Not that I know where you might find one.  But if you had an example maybe someone could point you in the right direction... Not sure if that's the kind of help you would be looking for. Unfortunately, I'm still learning this stuff, so I don't have any technique tips to give you.

(wow, I haven't posted here in a looong time  )


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## handz (Dec 1, 2010)

Maybe it is beacuse you looking at it too "educative" trying to find harmonic progressions etc... I never do that, Im not trained in composing in any way, so i only listnening to my senses and try things that some who is trained in classical ways may obscure. 

maybe link to a clip would help...


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## Frank Luchs (Dec 1, 2010)

handz @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> maybe link to a clip would help...



ja, let's together analyze this thing. 8)


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2010)

The fragment I was trying to deconstruct is from The Kill Ring, from How To Train Your Dragon, starting at 1m15s for 10 secs or so. There's trills, a few runs and a gliss, but that brass I can't figure out, and that's meat of it for me.


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## stevenson-again (Dec 1, 2010)

i have to say i think action is relatively easy to score as well, provided you don't lock yourself in a certain stylistic corner. i am rather emabrassed to say this but i rely on some pretty standard tricks. harmonically there pretty much is no trick. the harmony is simply a vertically fleshed out version of a single line. a good place to start is using cellular modes alla bartok. i know that sounds fancy but its pretty simple way to compose. all you have to do is stick to a certain 3 note pattern. 1 semitone, followed by 5 semitones, followed by (say) 2 semitones. or any permutation within an octave.

so you take a 3 note cell and turn it into a kind of a tune, and then make each note of that tune a minor chord. whack in some percussion, send it in and you can skip off to the pub.

if you want to get fancy flamming gives you that colour and texture that can help emphasize the beat or syncopation. i don't just mean that with drums, but the whole band. the other big trick is to vary high and low, and high and low together. when all else fails there is always ostinato.....

i guess there are a handful of tricks which get you going. naturally, there is always craft - it's how you handle them that determines whether a cue is merely serviceable or really good.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks as ever, Rohan. I guess this is the kind of approach I usually do, but when I do it, it just sounds a bit crap! Sometimes a simple ostinato thing works great, but the stuff I hear that I think works best is invariably much more complex. Perhaps I'm aiming too high?!

Take that 10s Dragon excerpt. It's obviously scored to match picture, and it sounds quite typical for action - beats all over the place, fast ascending staccatos varying in speed and rhythm, rarely just repeating... different sections and notes dropping in and out... I'm just listening again and it's overwhelming! Lack of repetition seems to be important, or rather one element might repeat (such as ostinato strings) but everything else changes around it.

Right, I'm snowbound and going to have another test crack at something.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2010)

MichaelJM @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> I'm curious, what do you mean when you say you're not classically trained? Do you mean you don't know music theory, or is it just you don't have a more complex understanding of the theory/counterpoint/orchestration behind classical music?
> 
> Also, would you be able to post an example of what you mean? I personally find it very difficult to copy something by ear. Ear training just wasn't my thing. Have you considered studying some action scores? Not that I know where you might find one.  But if you had an example maybe someone could point you in the right direction... Not sure if that's the kind of help you would be looking for. Unfortunately, I'm still learning this stuff, so I don't have any technique tips to give you.
> 
> (wow, I haven't posted here in a looong time  )



Hopefully you can Spotify or similar that Dragon cue. Hey, buy the whole soundtrack it's just STUNNING! Can't stop playing it...

I don't really know music theory. I've picked up a few terms, but that's about it. Stuff like counterpoint... I think I do it all the time, but I never think "ahh, I need some counterpoint". I just create extra line(s) that sound right in my head. So hopefully I'm doing the right sort of thing but not from a perspective of knowing it's what I SHOULD do. Does that make even the remotest sense?!

I'd really struggle to unpick a full score, I can follow a score, just, but it's very far from my native tongue. Midi files though - would LOVE to study some of those if they exist of this kind of complex action cue.


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## Lex (Dec 1, 2010)

Nice example. Articulation wise the brass is very basic in that part, but there's a lot of notes there. 

You say you are good with slower cues, so I'm guessing you have no problem on hearing exactly what each instrument is doing.

Why not try to listen that little 10sec part over and over, until you are blue in the face, but focus only on one brass instrument group at the time, start with Horns, listen to them over and over and ignore everything else until you start hearing those horns as a musical line that you understand.

Then do the same with Trumps, Bones...once you got all of them, analyze them theoretically to understand why are they doing what they are doing.

Maybe it works for ya.

aLex


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## stevenson-again (Dec 1, 2010)

my oft-times collaborator is also untrained classically. he taught himself quite literally by reconstructing scores, lifting passages, or trying to re-write them and by (in my opinion) rather slavishly outright copying the greats. he has matured now and while he still refers for inspiration its all in him now to call on. i remember helping with some scores where he wanted a feldman effect for which he only had the recording. so we transcribed it as closely as we could, but of course such an aeletoric effect can never be captured perfectly, but the act of chasing it threw an interesting 'something along the lines of'.

my daughter is a big fan of that dragon soundtrack - she has it on her ipod. i think i need to get into it too.


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## stevenson-again (Dec 1, 2010)

yeah it is stonking writing. but it is infact exactly bartok cells and/or octatonic scale. the impressive brass stuff is just chromatic minor chords. the cell i think he is using mostly is 5-1-3 around an octatonic scale diminished chord.

as an experiment, choose a note go up/down semitone and then up/down a 5 semitones and stick to that pattern, even when jumping octaves. i don't know why it works but if you follow that cell structure you can create that semi-tonal harmony that works well with action cues. i am personally very partial to 1-3-4. that works really well too.

another cheat i like is bi-tonality. do your bass in c minor and your treble in c#minor. sort of instant williams.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks a million guys! I've been doing exactly as suggested, going over it a zillion times, breaking it down. Fascinating. I'm wrong about everything! Still not there yet, but when I have something listenable will post it. Will definitely follow those tips too Rohan.

I got distracted with an hour long phone call, now starving hungry, will return to it this afternoon and slay this dragon! James, thanks a million for PM and email, will reply properly to this too.


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## handz (Dec 1, 2010)

my quick attemt on similar stuff 
http://soundcloud.com/h4ndz/quickacti


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2010)

Not bad handz! Especially for being done in a hurry. It starts nicely but it starts to sound a little more like my efforts as it goes on!

Speaking of which, here's my first attempt at a Kill Ring mockup (just that 10 second fragment):

[Link edited to reflect tidied up version - no orchestration changes - http://www.box.net/shared/z1sag5eh6z]

I got closer in around 2 hours than I thought I would (and WAY closer than last time), but it's still not right. Apart from some lazy timing issues, I'm sure I don't have the brass quite right, either the instruments or the parts themselves.

I've barely drawn breadth to think about what I've learned so far though. I need to analyse it to see why things work. The timps were interesting, they have their own rhythm that occasionally overlaps with the rest. I don't know why that brass part is so hard for me to get a handle on. I have to find definite notes I know, then go back from them to the fuzzy stuff and hope. Sure I have some harmonies backwards or something.

Incidentally, the tempo is bang on 120bpm. That's another thing I do wrong... I go for fast tempos when I don't need to.

FWIW there's everything but the kitchen sink in that, library wise - Symphobia, SO Gold, Hollywoodwinds, VSL Epic Horns and Westgate Horns, LASS.

If anyone can spot my many mistakes, I'd be really indebted to you!


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## handz (Dec 1, 2010)

It was really quickie, just aded few GOLD articulations + symphobia ( i was even lazy to loading sustains so there is no that "slower" moment) 15min or so. 

Funny is that - again I started theory wise - Cminor scale - bu then - i again ended by instinkt moving chords up and down chromaticaly to osund dramatic... and it works, dont know which theory to aply there. 

Your example is also good but maybe tempo is bit choppy - it needs more drive and like in amadeus - more notes!


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 1, 2010)

handz @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> Your example is also good but maybe tempo is bit choppy - it needs more drive and like in amadeus - more notes!



Do you mean as compared to the original? I've definitely got a few sloppy timing sections in there, I'll be doing another version incorporating some of the feedback I hopefully get, and I'll do a tidy up. Obviously composition-wise I'm striving to emulate the Powell track as much as possible - that's exactly the kind of cue I'd love to be writing! I love the diversity in just this short section. On the other hand, 10 minutes a day on a TV schedule... perhaps this is just unrealistic to ever aim this high?!

That said, I think I may be able to learn some shortcut tricks from doing this, and from the great advice already given, without it sounding naff. For example, that rising brass motif, it's really effective as it weaves in and out, with some variations. It's that ebb and flow I love. So rather than repeating something endlessly, it'd be interesting to repeat certain elements, dropping in and out and doing a few variations to keep the diversity going.


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## rJames (Dec 1, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Wed Dec 01 said:


> yeah it is stonking writing. but it is infact exactly bartok cells and/or octatonic scale. the impressive brass stuff is just chromatic minor chords. the cell i think he is using mostly is 5-1-3 around an octatonic scale diminished chord.
> 
> as an experiment, choose a note go up/down semitone and then up/down a 5 semitones and stick to that pattern, even when jumping octaves. i don't know why it works but if you follow that cell structure you can create that semi-tonal harmony that works well with action cues. i am personally very partial to 1-3-4. that works really well too.
> 
> another cheat i like is bi-tonality. do your bass in c minor and your treble in c#minor. sort of instant williams.



Rohan, I'd love to get what you're talking about here.

I'm missing a basic concept. 5-1-3 implies 4 notes. The starting note (1) up 5 semis (2) up 1 semi (3) and up 3 semis (4).

Can you just name 3 notes and give me its Bartok cell numerical label? Or maybe naming the 3 notes in a 5-1-3 would be best rather than creating a new cell to confuse me even more.

And when you say to create a melody out of the cell, do you you need to use them in that order (to maintain the intervals)? an the melody (order) change on each iteration or does that ruin the Bartok cell trick?

When you say to create a minor triad out of the melody, do you mean to use each note as the tonic of each triad? Or just have the 3 notes be a part of any minor triad?

I'm sure you can change up these elements but I just want to be clear on your basic principle.

Thanks.

Maybe one of the intervals is how you move to the next cell??


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## stevenson-again (Dec 1, 2010)

yeah it should just be 1-5 the next interval is for transposition of the cell. someone who knows this cell theory might be able to chime in with a better explanation - my grasp on it is workman like at best.

basically the idea is you take the three note cell and use bach like permutations. you invert it, you retrograde it, you transpose it you augment it or diminish it. the idea is that you get a consistent cell structure that makes kind of mathematical sense.

when i learn it about it i got into it a bit, but didn;t think about it again until many years later when i found it cropping up in my concert music. i find as a starting point for generating tense lines or itneresting semitonal strcutres it's really a good cheat. all you have to is noodle around that cell and just works.

the 3rd interval i think is probably an invention of mine, because it sometimes required too much thought to figure out what the next consistent note selection. whatever, i found adding that extra rule made it easier to whip something up.

a typical example is a passage, where you go from C-Db-Gb then the last note becomes your first. and you move to G-and then C. but you could go retrograde every second cell and so it would be C-Db-Gb then backwards still going up from the Gb to Db and then a D natural. next in the sequence is from the D being your last note which is now your first Eb and then Ab.

but you don;t have to keep going up. in which case you invert the interval so maybe you C-Db-Gb, the next note running the sequence in order should be G which is a semiteone (1). but you go down 11, inverting the interval which gives you A and then the next note is D.

i know it sounds a faff. but it does really work and you find it in stravinsky and brtok all the time. its a great way to get those nice celeste and harp flourihes you hear in early stravinsky.

you can have any permutation you like. so you could have 3-4 or 11-3. stick with the cell structure and you get some really tasty semi-tonal patterns.

guy, i think your mockup is pretty damn good actually. i reckon if stay with trying to transcribe things like that you'll have the style nailed in no time.


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## stevenson-again (Dec 1, 2010)

> When you say to create a minor triad out of the melody, do you mean to use each note as the tonic of each triad? Or just have the 3 notes be a part of any minor triad?



what i meant was, you make the cell pattern the root note of a minor triad. play the cell back as minor triads you get some cool not quite tonal stuff.

try it with 1-3 you'll see what i mean. in any case bartok was really into this, just have a look at concerto for orchestra and you will see what i mean. i just use it as a trick or a starting point to generate ideas in the action music vein.


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## rJames (Dec 1, 2010)

OK, I get it now.

There is an analog in EIS. But the main point is (in both Bartok and EIS) is that ANY planned relationship IS a musical relationship. (will sound like a relationship)

Thank you for the explanation. It helps.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 2, 2010)

First of all, thanks again all. This is all so useful for me. I'll have another go at Kill Ring today if only to tidy it up! Some elements sound pretty good, others less so. But perhaps more important than tidying, I'm going to really try and break down what's going on harmonically and rhythmically, to try to understand it better.

I've just been playing around, Rohan, and those are some really great useful tricks. They seem to work. I think I can see how it fits into Kill Ring... maybe not... more on that in a sec. Have to say I'm pretty flaky on the concepts of harmonic minor and octatonic... I know there's a difference between Harmonic and Chromatic minor but that's about the extent of my knowledge. Octatonic is even more shadowy I'm afraid. Er... oct... that's 8 notes, right?... neither major or minor... er.... 

One thing I've been using in my own stuff for a while and I also used on the Kill Ring mock up is raising / dropping 3 semitones on these sorts of runs for poor-man's chaos. It seems to help, but I'm not sure it's quite what Powell is doing ("what would Powell do?!!").

Here's some more early observations on Kill Ring:

The rising brass motif (French Horns and / or bones?). I think I've identified that the important part of it thematically is the last three notes, which are distinct. These are varied in terms or rhythm and accent, but the most common duh-duh-duh rhythm is probably the single biggest anchor point of the cue. The notes leading up to them seem to vary a little - sometimes it's repeating the first note, other times it's ascending into it. Once the pattern chops off before the end and keeps rising. Incidentally, one device used a lot in the Dragon action scenes are those incredibly fast repetitions on a note, usually just briefly. These are a REAL challenge for a brass library - I guess this is why VSL includes its performance repetitions? But are these this super-fast? 

The piece is in F#minor (I think). The cell - if I've got this right is sort of based around 1-4-7. It doesn't ever use those notes in sequence though, so I may have understood the concept wrong. but those are the key notes, it seems, that get toyed with and joined up with chromatic stuff. Every note between 1 and 7 is used (and 1 below) in the brass run with the exception of 6. I know this sounds really anally retentive, but this is the kind of stuff where I think "THIS is a big difference between it an my stuff". Those last three notes... 4-5-7 (A, Bb, C) they break the rising chromatic pattern of the brass. Somehow that seems very important - it's against my natural brain patterns and breaking those is really what this whole exercise is about for me.

One supremely effective touch is the flourish from the trumpets. The woodwind run (I used chromatic) also sells it, again not perhaps in the key I'd expect. But there it is again, the horns motif rising under it. Obviously there's the huge low brass blare at the beginning too (hey, something I can actually DO already!)

Voilins. First of all I had a minor trill to start then trems, but it ended up all minor trills, plus some glisses (from SO, kudos, they sound damn near identical). Some pizzi basses in there towards the end.

Woodwinds. Apart from the run, they're limited to single note repetition. Here I feel kudos is due to the entire philosophy behind Hollywoodwinds - the Mikes argued that the woodwinds, more than any other section, perform specific roles in action scores - the repeating note rhythm and scales are two of aspects they focus on. If this cue is anything to go by, absolutely spot on. You feel you're in Hollywood hands with Hollywoodwinds!

Percussion. As I say, the timps are tricksy, not accenting all the obvious beats often. (one or two obvious exceptions). The cymbals are pretty busy, and are used far faster than anything I'd tend to do.

Here's what it all DOESN'T do, that I often would. No constant repetition of anything really, all the elements weave in and out (especially true of the percussion). I tend to use ostinatos I guess, and they are conspicuous by their absence here. There's no general ascending key by semitone (I over-rely on this, though in my defence I'm often deliberately going for slightly comedic - hokey... I just want to only use it where it should be used!).

Bloody 'ell this is worthwhile...

And a final comment - seriously, this is my favourite soundtrack since the 80s. It's a never-ending joy. Every theme is a cracker, every flourish a gem. If it doesn't win the Oscar I'm going on a violent rampage. With Kill Ring on my iPod.


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## handz (Dec 2, 2010)

Raising and droping chord by 3 semitones is instant old star wars Williams action sound!


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## stevenson-again (Dec 2, 2010)

it's a brilliant exercise guy - it's the best way to get to grips with anything in music.

for your info, the octatonic scale is just the bartok cell in 2-1 format. so it's like the first 3 notes of a minor scale, and when you get to the 3rd it becomes the first note of the next. it nominally looks like the shape of a diminished chord (you can here the diminished chords in the kill ring). there fore the notes are:

C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-B-C.

this is what i would virtually call the 'Tonality of Action Cues'. i use the cell trick to break out of it so it doesn't get too predictable. if you augment the intervals by doubling them, you get whole tone and recasting them you get the same pattern but a different semi-tonality, so you get semi-tonal modulations.

it feels like cheating. a bit like using vi-IV-I-V if you know what i mean.

and there is no need to slavishly follow them - you go where your gut takes you but its handy to fall back on if you get stuck. and thus i distill 5 years of a composition degree into a couple of cheap tricks....

oh well - so long as it pays the bills.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 2, 2010)

Cheers you two! Loving the cheap tricks Rohan, though they're not ALL that cheap... don't get them all yet, but all part of the process.

Just uploaded a tidied version. No orchestration changes, just sounds less painful!

http://www.box.net/shared/z1sag5eh6z

Have also deleted the original.


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## handz (Dec 2, 2010)

Hey, this is much better!
The part from around 8-9sec sounds very promising.

Its always great to learn new compositional facts. 

BTW I found on yahoo answer very interesting answer on film music chord progressions by some guy some months ago, he looks to know what he talks about:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 739AArOBkz


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 2, 2010)

Great looking link Handz, I'll break it all down properly later.


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## Fumbles (Dec 2, 2010)

Very interesting thread* noiseboy*. I am learning a lot from it.
I picked up How To Train Your Dragon based on your glowing reports on it. Thanks, it was a good iTunes purchase...one I would not have thought of. My kids saw the movie on a day I could not go, so I missed it. I'll be renting it. 

In Kill Ring, I can hear the horn part you speak of distinctly and that section of the cue is very busy, very hard for me to pick out what everyone is playing. I like your mock up of it, it is very nice...good work. It would take me hours, if not days, to do that. Is there a harmony/rhythm thingy missing in there on those horns around 1:18? Please forgive me as I could be totally wrong, you are so way more advanced than I am. I let my reading totally slip away 20 years ago as I left my Jazz behind and pursued Rock 'n Roll. 

I am actually considering taking the Music For The Media online course. The Berklee is interesting but reading about the MFTM course offered an option.

To my ear I hear different horn parts and I could not tell you if they are different horns for each part or the same horn with one section/horn playing more smoothly and the other playing more staccato and with a harder attack. I'm also having a hard time picking out the time but it seems like a 6/4 to me in that section. Is that right? I had a rough time with this and the tempo changes etc...yikes!! I have some work to do.

The part I am specifically talking about starts almost right at 1:18.

:oops: This is very embarrassing 'cos I don't know how to use Sibelius 6. I have forgotten everything I learned, +/- 25 years ago, about how to enter notes for horns considering their transposition etc and I am unsure about the time sig like I said...I just tried to write my idea down enough to see the rhythm and notes I hear.

LOL!!! :lol: Someone please tell me if I am totally off the mark, or if I am close etc. I am just trying to interact here and learn.

Think of the top 2 staves as Horns and the bottom 2 as Trumpets. 
I wrote this in 6/4....so starting on the 4th beat.....LOL...not even sure where the 1 is in this. Someone...... please just show me the ONE!!!!. LOL! Old drummer thing....

There are minor 2nd intervals in there and I am not sure about those but this is the way I hear it. Just play the notes on a keyboard to hear what I hear. There is a mad high part above it as well, no idea what that is.

It is extremely cool actually. I like stuff like this....manic.

:oops: Here goes, please forgive me......









I actually like this guy John Powell's writing. The part between :59s and about 1:29 in Dragon Training is just killer. I hear John McLaughlin/Mahavishnu Orchestra in some of his writing, don't know why.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 2, 2010)

Hi Fumbles - great to have someone who is potentially obsessed as I am about figuring this out! And please understand, I'm totally fumbling around (if you will) in the dark here. And it's my 2nd attempt, the first one I just gave up in frustration, really. So I don't think I'm way ahead of you at all, far from it.

So yes I TOTALLY understand the horns thing and how hard it is to work out what the hell is going on. It's really why I started the thread. I was infuriating to me that I just couldn't figure it out. And I'm sure what I've done so far isn't quite right. Close, maybe.

Time sig - I honestly don't know what's right here either. I just went for 4/4 keeping a lot of triplet rhythms. I wouldn't be remotely surprised to discover this is totally wrong! 6/4 sounds highly plausible.

So those 7 notes. I've just played it over and over again and I definitely get where you're coming from. I honestly don't know, I can't break it down - either the notes themselves or if there are two layers, as it were. Would be interested to hear someone who can's opinions. With notes that fast, with some kind of multi-part thing going on, I can really only hear the buzz part of the horn sound more than the actual notes themselves, if you see what I mean - until those accented notes, anyway. Have to say, it's VERY hard to make samples sound like this, if not currently impossible. Roll on Hollywood Brass...

[tangent - listening to another cue, Dragon Book, earlier I realised something. I don't think there is any library out currently that has legato string harmonics. Someone will do doubt correct me if I'm wrong. They're pretty important, I think - 50s B movies thrived on them, didn't they?!]

Pleased someone else is as gaga over the soundtrack as me! Thanks v much for the input.


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## Fumbles (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks, you know I am talking just about the little section at 1:18?

I eventually threw the mp3 out of iTunes and into Amplitube Fender which has a slowdowner. Less expensive versions of Amplitube have this and there is also the Amazing Slowdowner I think. They may have a freebie that only processes a few secs of music or so, you may want to take a look.

I definitely hear these notes, but they are so close together it's like I just pick out certain obvious ones. I played these together in Sibelius and they sounded close.

Mainly I wanted to point out that rhythm which is what I was noticing before the slow down process. 

Oh the Amplitube one....... in this case, anything under about 85% of tempo was a bit waterfall sounding, so I could not get it as slow as I would have liked.

Yeah, if one of the experts would pipe up....... that would be splendid.

Did you listen to the cue I mentioned.... in Dragon Training?

Super stuff.


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## P.T. (Dec 2, 2010)

In those ascending brass runs I hear a lot of repeating of a single note in the midst of the runs.
They are not continuous runs.

There also sounds like a lot of repetition of parts of a run.
There will be4 or 5 notes running up and then it goes back and repeats that 4-5 not section again. So while it at first sounds like a continuous run up it is actually circling back on itself at times.


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## Fumbles (Dec 2, 2010)

P.T. @ Thu Dec 02 said:


> In those ascending brass runs I hear a lot of repeating of a single note in the midst of the runs.



Yes!! Absolutely, I heard that too. That is why I added the two staves, very top and very bottom where you'll see I repeated a few of the notes. And that is just in one tiny section.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 3, 2010)

Hi Fumbles, yes, I'm sure I'm hearing the right section, the 2nd bar of the excerpt basically (in 4/4). I think my rhythm is right, isn't it? The part I really can't break down is the internal harmony within this phrase. If you listen to mine I also have the single note repetition going on here, that much I can make out fine. Our endings are different - I have A Bb C, but in this case I think you might be right with A Bb B... but as you've put on yours something else muddies the waters like a C# in there somewhere.

I use Adobe Audition for timestretching. Must admit I hadn't tried it cos I thought it would introduce too many artefacts to be useful, but actually it IS useful, isn't it? In my version I have 5 As, then Ab, B, C (then immediately onto the next phrase dropping to an F#) with one brass part three semitones lower on the whole shebang (this I'm sure is wrong). 

Oh, I think I hear it!!!! Slowing it down... this line is the high horns. There's an ascending low horn part underneath it, not repetition this time, it IS rising. Stand by...

EDIT - OK, I have something that to me sounds a lot closer. The harmony on the preceding two notes before your clip, Funmbles, are wrong as well, again it was my cheap trick of 3 semis lower not working out. Forgive the lack of notation, not sure how to get it into this forum without taking 2 hours!

So, Bar 2. 

High horns (poss trumpets too?)
F# - G - A A A A A Bb B

Low horns (much more subdued in mix... I guess just less players?)

C - Eb - F# F# F# G G# A Bb

(and this phrase immediately rolls into the next without a rest).

So what's happening, when I look at it in piano roll, is REALLY interesting. I'm probably reading way too much into it, but what it is doing is starting at a wide interval - 7 semitones, and throughout the run it's closing the gap til a final dischordant single semitone apart. So - can this be true? - a potentially very useful musical trick to create tension, close up a musical interval throughout a run?!

I'll mix this and put it up, see what you all think.

EDIT AGAIN

OK, here it is - http://www.box.net/shared/j0u5t0oejd . What's interesting is that I think it's starting to emulate the feel of the original in as much as it's becoming hard to pin down the individual notes now. On the right lines, then?

I've also added some sustained horn notes in bar 4 that I completely missed. I'm still not sure I have the 3 semi brass interval right on the later bars, but Powell isn't doing the same thing as he did in bar 2 either (sigh)... it DOES sound like a constant interval. Just not sure that either I have that interval right, or perhaps the instrumentation is wrong.

Without doubt, this is musically MASSIVELY more complex than anything I've ever done. That itself speaks volumes. I actually feel quite justified in perusing this! I always knew that the action music I really like is actually very complicated, which is obviously why I find it such a huge struggle and have this constant feeling of intense dissatisfaction with my end result. All I have to go on is my ear. On much music my ear is happy... it sounds like the right ballpark. With action my ear is always pissed off, it can hear the gulf between what I do and what should be there. The question is, with the tips I've picked up here from others and from what I'm learning myself from this exercise, can I translate this into my own compositions? And can I do it on a TV schedule?!!!!


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## Frank Luchs (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm a bit irritated by all those notes in this thread. 
Don't know what belongs where.

My ear is telling me that those 3 markant brass chords are playing
A major, Eb minor and C major


a bb c
e gb g
c# eb e
-----------> time

Sorry for the enharmonic disaster.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 3, 2010)

Frank Luchs @ Fri Dec 03 said:


> I'm a bit irritated by all those notes in this thread.
> Don't know what belongs where.
> 
> My ear is telling me that those 3 markant brass chords are playing
> ...



Yes thanks, that sounds good to me too. I'll do a version 4 a little later! Getting there.... bit by bit...


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 3, 2010)

Fumbles @ Fri Dec 03 said:


> Did you listen to the cue I mentioned.... in Dragon Training?
> 
> Super stuff.



Totally forgot to reply to this bit - yes, it's terrific. It's ALL terrific! I'm especially partial to Forbidden Friendship myself. Superficially pretty simple, but the instrumentation is very interesting (little classic orchestral instruments for the most part, but nothing sounds out of place) and.... well. It's just gorgeous.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 3, 2010)

The obsession continues. V4:

http://www.box.net/shared/cj0ey02041

Quite a lot of changes. Bar 2 the brass needed to be an octave higher I thought... now I doubt my shiny new harmony. But Frank I think was spot on on the main motif, and I've extended that backwards to the preceding rises, ditching my dropped 3 semitones schtick. Finally noticed the bass drum. Extended the trumpets forward a little.


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## snowleopard (Dec 3, 2010)

I'll let the others comment on the theory, but I wanted to give some encouragement through a story. 

Alan Silvestri studied music at Berklee in Boston, but dropped out in his sophomore year. He was a jazz/blues guitar player who wanted to play live, and toured with Wayne Cochran. 

Through both luck and nook he ended up in Hollywood and went through a lot of the same growing problems you are experiencing, especially when it came to orchestration. Now, he's a Grammy winner, and two-time Oscar nominee.


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 4, 2010)

Thank you Snow! Silverstri is a God. He's always been no2 just behind Williams for me, though Powell is now joint with him! Interesting he struggled... a lot of his orchestrations are every bit as complex as this. I must be drawn to this stuff that SO exceeds my abilities! Still, it is how one learns I guess.

So this is bordering on a psychological illness by now. Here's v5

http://www.box.net/shared/se1o1rvxkx

Bar 2 - still not right despite more changes. This is maddeningly elusive - nothing I've tried or that anyone else has suggested sounds quite right yet. Made a few more changes in other parts that are definitely better, the final brass rise is much closer now - I was way off before. I've added a couple of brand new OSR runs under that stretch along with the violin glisses, and a snare roll I thought I could hear on the 3,000th listen. The opening drone is a little beefier.

Changed quite a bit more brass instrumentation too. Backing off from the VSL Epic Horns staccatos in favour of the Westgate. Neither hold a candle to the glorious tone of the real version, but Westage sounded less irritating to me.

So there's a lot more harmony in there than in my first attempt, quite a bit of triads. I find that if you give all three parts equal weight it sounds wrong - I'm pulling back on the harmonies.

As to the overall mix... sheesh, what a difference between mine and the original. I could take a whole day trying to get closer, and it WOULD get closer. But my gut feeling is that that the biggest problem is still the samples themselves. The violin shorts - I'm using LASS, also tried Symphobia - they still sound a little synthetic in my version. They just sound like real strings in the real version (funnily enough) - you can hear the bowing and even though they're not very present in the mix, they still cut through. The brass is massively different. I swear even the mighty Project Sam are way off sounding this good. So overall the difference between mockup and real is like night and day, and some of that will be down to my own definciienies in orchestration and mixing. But I think that it's a long way from Game Over for the sample libraries in terms of achieving realism. I'm sure there is much better to come.

I suppose one bit of good news is that I haven't yet heard anything in the Dragon soundtrack that is MORE dense than this! Bloody 'ell, it's been nearly a week on this 10s stretch. Thanks again for everyone's help on it, including those who've PM'd me with kind words and suggestions, it's REALLY appreciated.


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## snowleopard (Dec 4, 2010)

I have to say I think you're doing well. Better than I could and I did study music in college (though no degree, gave up). 

Since you like Silvestri, here's an interview with him, and a quote I found. Seems like a very personable guy. 

http://johnbraheny.com/interview-with-alan-silvestri/

_"I never wrote a note for a piece of film until a man handed me 12 cans and I had 9 days to write sixty minutes of music. I didn't even know what a click track was the day I was handed the cans. I did not know what any of it was."_

More interviews can be found as well on the web. Soundtracks.net has a few. I'll see if I can find the one where he talks about being frustrated by orchestration and spending about 30 hours straight fighting through it for the first real deadline. I think it's on Back to the Future, as the scores before that were mostly Synclavier, or studio musicians.


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## Fumbles (Dec 4, 2010)

noiseboy I will give things a listen soon. Sorry I am a bit out of commish right now..... lot's of chores.


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## spikescott (Dec 4, 2010)

I really like this thread & applaud noiseboys efforts and determination. It reminds me of something an old TV producer once said to me when I first started - "They day you stop learning and think you know it all is the day you find out you know nothing at all..." So true.

It's interesting the amount of contributors who are largely self taught orchestrators but have a massive passion to learn and keep on learning. I'd count myself amongst them. Keep going Noiseboy!


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## snowleopard (Dec 4, 2010)

_""They day you stop learning and think you know it all is the day you find out you know nothing at all..."_

Great quote!


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks all, I've been very encouraged by everyone's input here. I'm my own biggest critic and fan all at once usually! I really hope this helps me to write better in future for this kind of cue... that's phase 3! I'm hoping I can make the orchestration a little more accurate first, because there's little point in learning lessons if they are the wrong lessons. Then it's phase 2, really trying to figure out WHY things work so I can hopefully apply it.

Of course I realise this is such a tiny fragment, and there will be scores (!) of other techniques that I'll need to learn. But it's a start.

I have a book with a Silvestri interview in it, actually. Must read that again...


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