# Hardest scenes to score?



## Ed (Oct 26, 2009)

What do people here find the hardest scenes to score?

I find its the ones where not much is happening on screen, it just needs music to gel it all together. If theres some big emotion happening or a chase or whatever you have somthing to specifically hit, but otherwise you're left thinking wtf am I supposed to put here!?

Does everyone agree to that? If you understand what I mean whats your approach when you get this? If you have a different "hardest" kind of scene what is it?


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## david robinson (Oct 26, 2009)

scenes of suspense that are very well shot/edited.
almost the opposite to yours, Ed.

getting just the right noise/music without subtracting from what's already on screen.

best,
David R.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 26, 2009)

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## David Story (Oct 26, 2009)

Ed, you hit it, when there's not much action or emotion coming from the picture it's hard. I've used textural pads and 8th note ostinatos to keep things moving to the next cut. Just the basic timbres of the film, and great reverb. Live players really help here, they can keep things interesting with a few notes.

RiffWraith is right, films aren't locked, mearly "latched". About the only thing that helps there is a music editor.

The loud scenes problem has a classic solution: give everybody the tune!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 26, 2009)

- Scenes where the director/editor put in a perfect, well-known recent movie theme as temp.

- Scenes where the director/editor put in a perfect, well-known recent pop/alternative song as temp.

- Scenes that have no temp music, where the director says to you, "try something you feel works", meaning they don't know what they want, but they will tell what they don't want after you've work on something for hours.


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## re-peat (Oct 26, 2009)

Nothing more difficult to score than scenes with bad acting, I find. This is especially true of emotional scenes: if the emotion doesn't ring true in the actors' performance, it's almost impossible to add music that will work. Very frustrating. In extreme cases, the whole thing just ends up being ridiculous (and thus the complete opposite of what was hoped for), even though the musical approach in itself might be not bad at all. In fact, the more powerful and 'right' the music, the more it contrasts with the shortcomings in the acting, and combining those two gives pretty horrible results. But what can you do?

_


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## germancomponist (Oct 26, 2009)

But you can underline bad acting with comedy music. It works! :-D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 26, 2009)

Couldn't agree more Piet.


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## reddognoyz (Oct 26, 2009)

Yes you can underline bad acting with comic music, but if it's not supposed to be funny.......you're screwed. 

I'm working on a live action kids tv show and it's a comedy but the timing and the editing is even worse than the wooden stiff performances. I hate it! it's so hard and uninspiring to work on, I was going to actually pass on it for this season but it came for renewal up last October and things were in a real bad state in the economy . I didn't think I could pass it up.

The hardest part is the timing, everything is too drawn out or too short it seems to fit in athe right cue. 
I did another live action tv show last year that was done with puppets and a couple of live actors, but these were all sesame street/ muppet people, all really experienced performers and it was their TIMING that allowed me to score it properly.


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## David Story (Oct 26, 2009)

Composers get to help a lot of actors, I often get direction to help scenes where the performance isn't quite there. IMO, music can save a scene, but not the whole show. It's like a special effect, you can write a dramatic cue and trick the audience that the scene is working. But they do catch on.




Easiest when no dialogue.


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## Christian Marcussen (Oct 26, 2009)

Interesting underscore is difficult I find... But in general terms I find good interesting action music to be most challenging.


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## kid-surf (Oct 26, 2009)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 26 said:


> Nothing more difficult to score than scenes with bad acting, I find. This is especially true of emotional scenes: if the emotion doesn't ring true in the actors' performance, it's almost impossible to add music that will work. Very frustrating. In extreme cases, the whole thing just ends up being ridiculous (and thus the complete opposite of what was hoped for), even though the musical approach in itself might be not bad at all. In fact, the more powerful and 'right' the music, the more it contrasts with the shortcomings in the acting, and combining those two gives pretty horrible results. But what can you do?
> 
> _




...You can go write your own film/tv show. 

Which is to say, I couldn't agree more...but I will in this way...and add:

The hardest thing to score is a: BAD MOVIE. Normally due to a horrible script, then compounded by bad directing...of bad actors...who could, perhaps, act better if the script was any good.


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## John DeBorde (Oct 26, 2009)

I often find comedy challenging to capture the subtlety of the humor just right, w/o overplaying it.

And like everyone else is saying, in general just bad filmmaking. Especially if the pacing of the editing is all wrong, it can be really hard to get the music to sit right w/o it jerking around all over the place.

john


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## kid-surf (Oct 26, 2009)

David Story @ Mon Oct 26 said:


> Composers get to help a lot of actors, I often get direction to help scenes where the performance isn't quite there. IMO, music can save a scene, but not the whole show. It's like a special effect, you can write a dramatic cue and trick the audience that the scene is working. But they do catch on.
> 
> 
> 
> Easiest when no dialogue.



Underscore is basically VO (Voice Over).

Which is to say, in screenwriter terms, if your film doesn't work WITHOUT it...VO...your film/story is not solid (=sucks). 

Interestingly, or not, VO is considered to be a no-no/cheat/screenwriting 101. Which is to say that a good score shouldn't be telegraphing what is NOT in the film, it should be elevating the SPINE of the film.


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## artsoundz (Oct 26, 2009)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 26 said:


> Nothing more difficult to score than scenes with bad acting, I find. This is especially true of emotional scenes: if the emotion doesn't ring true in the actors' performance, it's almost impossible to add music that will work. Very frustrating. In extreme cases, the whole thing just ends up being ridiculous (and thus the complete opposite of what was hoped for), even though the musical approach in itself might be not bad at all. In fact, the more powerful and 'right' the music, the more it contrasts with the shortcomings in the acting, and combining those two gives pretty horrible results. But what can you do?
> 
> _



+1

and what's worse is 9 times out ten the director is expecting the music to make it work. not ...going.... to.... happen


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 26, 2009)

kid-surf @ 26/10/2009 said:


> The hardest thing to score is a: BAD MOVIE. Normally due to a horrible script, then compounded by bad directing...of bad actors...who could, perhaps, act better if the script was any good.



Woah! So you're saying I've been working way too hard all these years?!! :wink:


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## MacQ (Oct 26, 2009)

I'd agree with most of what's been said here. I did a short film last year that was nearly impossible since the "dramatic" script was so campy and overwrought, and the temp the director was in love with was wrong wrong wrong.

Oh well ... that's the job, right?

~Stu


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## Hal (Oct 26, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Mon Oct 26 said:


> "What do people here find the hardest scenes to score?"
> 
> 1) The ones that keep changing because the director and producer keep changing their minds...:lol:
> 
> ...



U NAILED IT

number one is an impossible scene to score specially one where u hear :"no we didnt change..no changes,just a couple of seconds here and there thats all !! "

about number 2 i always try to find a solution with the director which is usually,u either keep all the explosions and car chase sounds or the music 
u cant have both on the same speakers !
i hate when they ask for full orchestral music in a scene where all what u gonna hear is car and tires screeching !!


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## Stevie (Oct 27, 2009)

For me it's underscoring... The little sound of NOTHING.


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## Stevie (Oct 27, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Mon Oct 26 said:


> 2) Big, loud scenes with car chases, gunfights, explosions, people yelling, helicopters zooming in and out, etc. Writing music that fits is not hard; writing music that fits and that can be heard is a different story.



Oh check the car chase scene in Bullit for that


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## _taylor (Oct 27, 2009)

its always the Main Titles. Sets the tone for the rest, at least in my head. Takes me the longest and is usually the one cue Ill rewrite several times. 

Underscoring is the easiest for me, I am a minimalist by nature.


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## Stevie (Oct 27, 2009)

I didn't mean underscoring in terms of big or small orchestration. That's not the problem. 
But what if a scene doesn't reflect any emotion at all and you have to put something for the sake of it (some musical walla walla)? THAT I find hard.


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## _taylor (Oct 27, 2009)

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## Stevie (Oct 27, 2009)

Great! I know who to ask if I'm stuck then :D


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## _taylor (Oct 27, 2009)

Stevie @ Tue Oct 27 said:


> Great! I know who to ask if I'm stuck then :D



Absolutely. :wink: 

How are you with main titles?


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## Stevie (Oct 27, 2009)

Hm, better than with underscoring


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## stevenson-again (Oct 27, 2009)

what an interesting thread. i write this just having struggled with 5 minute cue that has really taken it out of me and i still am not sure i am going to win with it.

naturally trying to beat a temp - of mostly my own music sure - but mangled in such a way as to feel a bit generic, although it has many good things about it. it is a fantastic sword fighting scene, with the son blaming his father for his mothers death and battling it out alla return of the jedi. well shot, very well acted.

so emotional dramatic music. think the big cue in the middle of prince caspian the one where the baddie is crowned - that kind of thing with the mozart requiem vibe and tonailty. god its a bastard. it's like arm-wrestling an octopus. the problem is i needed to do a slow burn, and i needed to avoid the ladies (ie female choir) and try to keep the scale down as much as possible until the very final shot where the son disarms the father. trying to keep it exciting and not be tempted into being too big is incredibly hard. in order to make the line go where it should in a satisfying way that also lies within the range that doesn't take us to extremes - yet in such a way so as to give us plenty of tension.

and then because it has a flow, 4 bar phrases and a repeating harmonic structure, trying to organize things so that it lands appropriately on the cut is hard. but not as hard as simply trying to make the line clear, exciting, but not too big. the test is to see how low you can play it against the scene and still feel excited by it.

hard. i am absolutely nackered.


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## Daniel James (Oct 27, 2009)

Lol i'll give you few examples from a couple of films i've done recently.

1. Being given a temp track that scores wall to wall music then the director saying, I dont like any of the music from the temp we only put that there to cut to.

2. Scenes in a foreign language you dont speak without any script translation and cryptic metaphorical explanations of the emotion (it should feel like a badger on a summer morn while feeding its young (made up example))

3. After being told to make the scene sound like Hans Zimmer, Blatently ripping off a Hans Zimmer track and then being told its not Zimmer enough.

I am sure I will think of more in a minute.

Dan

p.s when underscoring and stuck just load a synth and do the good ol bowwwwwwhhhhhhwwwoowwwww drone


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 27, 2009)

[quote:c812969463="re-peat @ Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:34 pm"]Nothing more difficult to score than scenes with bad acting, I find. This is especially true of emotional scenes: if the emotion doesn't ring true in the actors' performance, it's almost impossible to add music that will work. Very frustrating. In extreme cases, the whole thing just ends up being ridiculous (and thusòR¢   ´ñ!R¢   ´ñ"R¢   ´ñ#R¢   ´ñ$R¢   ´ñ%R¢   ´ñ&R¢   ´ñ'R£   ´ñ(R£   ´ñ)R£   ´ñ*R£   ´ñ+R£   ´ñ,R£   ´ñ-R£   ´ñ.R£   ´ñ/R£   ´ñ0R£   ´ñ1R£   ´ñ2R£   ´ñ3R£   ´ñ4R£   ´ñ5R£   ´ñ6R£   ´ñ7R£   ´ñ8R£   ´ñ9R£   ´ñ:R£   ´ñ;R£   ´ñ<R£   ´ñ=R£   ´ñ>R£   ´ñ?R£   ´ñ@R£   ´ñAR£   ´ñBR£   ´ñCR£   ´ñDR£   ´ñER£   ´ñFR£   ´ñGR£   ´ñHR£   ´ñIR£   ´ñJR£   ´ñKR£   ´ñLR£   ´ñMR£   ´ñNR£   ´ñOR£   ´ñPR£   ´ñQR£   ´ñRR£   ´ñSR£   ´ñTR£   ´ñUR£   ´ñVR£   ´ñWR£   ´ñXR£   ´ñYR£   ´ñZR£


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## stevenson-again (Oct 28, 2009)

here' one that comes up from time to time:

re-writing a rejected cue. 

don't you find yourself second guessing the notes from the producer/director? i worry that it might only be a small thing that is bothering them or it may be completely misconceived. it's the second guessing...the temp is smashed and does something really nice at particular spot, but to get there with your own music suggests something else - you can't hit that spot in the same way without making the whole of the cue as smashed up and disjointed as the temp.

another one closely related:

editing an existing cue to fit a new cut. same problems as above. depending on the material it can be like trying to squeeze a shoe box into a shoe. every so often though, a recut can actually help you solve a weak spot in the cue.

as someone said earlier, nothing harder to score than a scene that simply isn't working anyway. but by contrast in an extremely good scene that works with virtually anything thrown at it you can be paralyzed by choice...


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## chimuelo (Oct 28, 2009)

I have a very difficult time scoring to Midget Porn.
I can't keep from laughing and then being shocked.
Really messes with my chops.
I still can't figure out why Midget porn is twice as expensive, when the actors are half of the size.......Oh well.


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## kid-surf (Oct 28, 2009)

Excuse me..!

The PC term is Munchkin Porn.

And...FWIW

The MAC term is Apple Porn.

Thank you for your cooperation...


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## lux (Oct 28, 2009)

Agree with re-peat about badly acted scenes


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## stevenson-again (Oct 29, 2009)

> Agree with re-peat about badly acted scenes



and i agree with chumelo about midget porn. it's very tricky.


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## Daniel James (Oct 29, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Thu Oct 29 said:


> > Agree with re-peat about badly acted scenes
> 
> 
> 
> and i agree with chumelo about midget porn. it's very tricky.



To score or to make?


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## bluejay (Oct 30, 2009)

Scenes where there isn't a common consensus as to what is wanted.

Worse still, scenes where the people fighting have polar opposite viewpoints.

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