# Musician price, local vs abroad



## Rv5 (Apr 3, 2014)

I'm wondering if there is a way to secure more work for musicians in the UK that has positive impact on work for musicians.

It is specific to UK as I'm only just familiar with the musicians union and rates in the UK let alone other countries.

This is also specific for orchestral recordings for media/film/trailer/library work.

From what I understand, for under £10,000, a composer in the UK could get an 80piece quality, established orchestra complete with venue, conductor, engineer, librarian and translator for at least a 4-hour session in somewhere like Prague.

But in the UK where union rates are around £150 per player (edited: compared to 80euros/60pounds elsewhere), 80 players would cost £12,000.

Now I don't know what a like-for-like would be regarding player caliber, but let's say for arguments sake we have highly skilled players that charge £110 per session meaning the UK session for players alone would be £8,800. Again using the same line of thinking for venue hire where it's not somewhere like Air Lyndhurst, but a quality hall big enough and suitable for large orchestral recording. For such a location in London, I was quoted approx £3000. This means we're looking at a total of £11,800 for players and venue.

Engineer (with equipment) and conductor hire on top of this would add yet more cost.

Please, those with experience or knowledge give some input on this, but it would seem a lot of work is sent abroad where the quality of musicianship is adequate, but the cost is low.

I'm wondering two main things:

What is the quality of the musicians life in a place like Prague where their pay is so little? Are they being exploited? Or is the work welcome and reflects good pay for the players?

In the UK, is there a way that union rates can reflect a figure to bring more work to UK musicians without exploiting and underpaying players?

Are there any existing articles/debates on this anyone could link to?

Is this an issue or is everything fine? For me, I know a lot of musicians that could use work, but realistically doing a session for anything less than £80 for some of the less-experienced ones is not sustainable. However there does seem an opportunity this kind of work at a lower price would be welcome to augment existing work for musicians.


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## Hannes_F (Apr 3, 2014)

I'd like to add an aspect that might perhaps be unusual. I have seen quite some arguments lately about keeping recording work local: Keeping it in LA for Hollywood, keeping it in London for the UK.

All fair and good, and I wish every session musician more work than he / she can do. However please don't forget that films usually earn a considerable amount of their money in foreign countries and the makers expect people worldwide to fund the films by their tickets without feeling any national barriers. So from my point of view it seems to me a bit one-sided to insist on keeping all the work national. Just saying.

The cause why session musicians are panicking in LA and London (with reason) are not the orchestras in Prague or Bratislava. The cause is that they were lured into recording sessions for sample libraries while underestimating the potential of that technology (with other words they were not well informed) and now they sadly suffer the consequences for it. No hypocritical testament of sample developers (and I have seen quite some) can refute this. 

While the existence of sample libraries can here and there help creating jobs for session musicians by bringing a new type of composer into play that composes with samples by ear and then gives the music to orchestrators and live players (I don't deny it because I have been working in lots of such projects myself) it is still a historical fact that samples are invented to replace live recordings - and in many practical situations that already works.

So if you want to 


> secure more work for musicians in the UK that has positive impact on work for musicians


then imo it would start with writing music that live players can do better than samples can. A suggestion would be to give them something to say again (musically). Especially for strings: Re-invite them to be important, not do a keyboard (string beds) or a hihat (spiccato ostinatos) job all the time. Did I say melody?


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## Pietro (Apr 3, 2014)

AFAIK, the rate per player in Prague or other Czech orchestra isn't £15. That would be ridiculous. I would say, per session per player, it's more likely to be between 60-100EUR.

I've recorded in Czech a couple of times, and everyone seemed to be happy. And the reason is, in case of session orchestras, the pay, compared to the cost of living is very good, and probably even better than in the UK. Musicians are very good and disciplined. There is no exploit, the musicians have their unions, that care for their interests.

- Piotr


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## Synesthesia (Apr 3, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> The cause why session musicians are panicking in LA and London (with reason) are not the orchestras in Prague or Bratislava. The cause is that they were lured into recording sessions for sample libraries while underestimating the potential of that technology (with other words they were not well informed) and now they sadly suffer the consequences for it. No hypocritical testament of sample developers (and I have seen quite some) can refute this.




This is simply not true.

In addition we pay all our musicians royalties on sales.

"Hypocritical"?


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## Hannes_F (Apr 3, 2014)

How I saw that comment coming.

Kudos to you that you are paying royalties. However this is an exception and since you know the scene you know how it works scene-wide. How even knows which musicians recorded LA*S, E*, C*, 8*io? Do they get royalties? And if so, it is enough for living after having to retire because slowly but steadily going out of business? I doubt it.


Also, even Spitfire samples are still there to replace the real thing, what else. And they do, of course. I am not saying this is a good or a bad thing, it is just what it is.


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## chrisr (Apr 3, 2014)

a few thoughts:

The standard of musicianship I hear coming from Eastern Europe is very high - so it would be incorrect to assume that London = Better in my opinion.

At the level below 'world-class pro' musicianship there are a wealth of opportunities for UK composers to collaborate with many highly capable choirs / orchestras / ensembles for very little ££ indeed. In fact, in my experience there is a fantastic community of dedicated qualified, second-tier musicians/conductors/recordists in the UK who actively seek new projects and look to create new music as much as possible.

Look beyond the obvious orchestral studios - the RCM have a fantastic facility that's avail to hire (and avail to students at a ludicrous rate!!) - they're terrible at promotion though, so it gets massively overlooked imho... and they're not alone by any means - there are many other institutions up and down the country who have great halls and lack nous / mandate to chase commercial work. There are also some fantastic location recordists out there - have tree/ will travel.

My sister recently received a *very* small PRS grant to record a piece of hers with a 40 piece wind orchestra - with some research and good organisational & negotiating skills she came in on a tiny, tiny budget. This was purely for a new work - not for something with a commercial end though.

All a bit random thoughts - and not particularly with reference to commercial ventures as specified - but you know blah blah blah - too much coffee!

Will be interested to hear what the people who do this all the time have to say - do Paul & Christian still frequent these pages?? [Edit - oh yes - In the time it took me to type this - I see that Paul has posted - *FizzyWillies!! :mrgreen: ] The only full-time orchestrator I know (who I don't think frequents these pages either, Mr DB?? - because 'virtual' orchestration isn't his thing) certainly started out going to eastern europe with the composers he was working for - I suspect he records in the UK a bit more now as i imagine the jobs he's working on aren't too strapped for cash... given the box-office figures...


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## Rv5 (Apr 3, 2014)

Pietro @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> AFAIK, the rate per player in Prague or other Czech orchestra isn't £15. That would be ridiculous. I would say, per session per player, it's more likely to be between 60-100EUR.
> 
> I've recorded in Czech a couple of times, and everyone seemed to be happy. And the reason is, in case of session orchestras, the pay, compared to the cost of living is very good, and probably even better than in the UK. Musicians are very good and disciplined. There is no exploit, the musicians have their unions, that care for their interests.
> 
> - Piotr



Hi Piotr - yes you're right re £15, I got confused somewhere there! Amended.

Thanks for your input - it's interesting, and good, to hear and useful being a perspective from someone who has recorded in Prague in this way.



chrisr @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> a few thoughts:
> 
> The standard of musicianship I hear coming from Eastern Europe is very high - so it would be incorrect to assume that London = Better in my opinion.
> 
> ...



Again thanks for the input: I agree with what you've found about lots of players and opportunities going: I've attended a few recording sessions at RCM - the hall is beautiful!! Perhaps then, there is a lack of the organisation at the front-end to chase up clients and project manage things in the same way as sessions elsewhere?

Hannes: I want to gently nudge the post back just about hiring live musicians locally vs abroad, not into the impact of sample libraries on hiring musicians. Recording sessions still take place, so I'm looking at where they are happening and why.

Indeed global living and life and awareness is a beautiful thing when it comes to creating. Just doing a bit of research into what people's opinions and experiences are with musicians price locally (UK for me) against abroad (popular places like Prague).


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## Pietro (Apr 3, 2014)

As a follow up, here's cost of living comparison between Prague and London:
This is to be considered when comparing rates between countries:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co ... rrency=GBP

This gives a better picture why recording costs differences and why they are justified in both places. And actually comparing the costs of living, musicians in London earn less than their collegues in Prague.

I wouldn't also generalize on how sample libraries kill the recording business. Maybe I'm just too young to see the big picture (though I'm 30), but I can only see people recording more recently, not less. My friends all push for live recordings. That didn't seem to be in our reach 10 years ago. We probably wouldn't even learn writing for an orchestra if not sample libraries.

- Piotr


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## Hannes_F (Apr 3, 2014)

@ Rv5 yep, I guess what I was going to say is that the local 100 will probably not love you for going abroad but the relatively few jobs that go there are not their biggest problem.

@ Pietro, it is a mixed situation, and I think I expressed it in both ways. And live recordings are coming back, that is true and good.


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## chrisr (Apr 3, 2014)

Rv5 @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> In the UK, is there a way that union rates can reflect a figure to bring more work to UK musicians without exploiting and underpaying players?



A factor to consider here is private tuition rates in the uk which work out around the same as session rates. That will set a lower limit for what a musician might want to earn on an hourly basis. So I suspect the only way forward with that is royalties, as Paul mentioned further up the thread.

[edited - removed the para that was previously here - because on second thoughts, I don't think i should be talking about/speculating upon the personal income of named individuals - that's probably their own business and not something for discussion online!!] - the coffee has worn off now


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## Rv5 (Apr 5, 2014)

Pietro @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> AFAIK, the rate per player in Prague or other Czech orchestra isn't £15. That would be ridiculous. I would say, per session per player, it's more likely to be between 60-100EUR.
> 
> - Piotr



Found out where my brain went wonky - was thinking 15 eur per hour (say 4 hours @ 15 = 60 euros a session) and included it wrong.

I'll be visiting Prague later in the year - pretty excited to check out the city!


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## chibear (Apr 6, 2014)

> then imo it would start with writing music that live players can do better than samples can. A suggestion would be to give them something to say again (musically). Especially for strings: Re-invite them to be important, not do a keyboard (string beds) or a hihat (spiccato ostinatos) job all the time. Did I say melody?



Probably the most important comment in this thread so far and it seems to be have been passed over and ignored.

Speaking as a musician who has spent his life (1st one that is :D ) in orchestras and studios, we have not practiced our instruments for years or decades even to play as Hannes put it "keyboard and hihat". Sure we'll do it, take the money & run and laugh about it at the pub, but give us something to sink our teeth into and the work is quickly elevated to a level well beyond what one can accomplish with libraries.


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## Rv5 (Apr 7, 2014)

chibear @ Sun Apr 06 said:


> > then imo it would start with writing music that live players can do better than samples can. A suggestion would be to give them something to say again (musically). Especially for strings: Re-invite them to be important, not do a keyboard (string beds) or a hihat (spiccato ostinatos) job all the time. Did I say melody?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whether the music has great sweeping melodies or 'keyboard and hihat' stuff, it's still being recorded and it'll still be cheap and convenient to do it abroad. Recorded material is recorded material, and where it takes place isn't down (I don't think) to the nature of the writing. So much quality stuff get's recorded n places like Prauge (look at TSFH - that music is all about the melody!).

This is just an exploration into the idea behind recording abroad, in terms of business model, musical results, musicianship, union terms etc for research. I mean basically the cost and musicianship is great, along with the service so from one angle it makes perfect sense to go abroad. Does this lose work for local musicians and is that something worth thinking about?


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## Daryl (Apr 7, 2014)

Sometimes recording in Easter Europe is more to do with usage than musician cost.

D


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## Hannes_F (Apr 7, 2014)

You are talking about buyout I assume?


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## Rv5 (Apr 7, 2014)

Daryl @ Mon Apr 07 said:


> Sometimes recording in Easter Europe is more to do with usage than musician cost.
> 
> D



Ah I see - like Hannes said, buyouts? Is that costs or are there different laws?


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## Daryl (Apr 7, 2014)

Hannes_F @ Tue Apr 08 said:


> You are talking about buyout I assume?


That's one scenario. However, there are plenty of other usage differences between the UK and Eastern Europe.

D


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## Daryl (Apr 7, 2014)

Rv5 @ Tue Apr 08 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Apr 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes recording in Easter Europe is more to do with usage than musician cost.
> ...


It has nothing to do with laws. It's to do with Union agreements.

D


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## chibear (Apr 7, 2014)

> Whether the music has great sweeping melodies or 'keyboard and hihat' stuff, it's still being recorded and it'll still be cheap and convenient to do it abroad. Recorded material is recorded material, and where it takes place isn't down (I don't think) to the nature of the writing. So much quality stuff get's recorded n places like Prauge (look at TSFH - that music is all about the melody!).



First of all I don't share your assessment of the product quality coming out of Prague. The area orchestral style does have it strengths but also weaknesses in certain sections which don't lend themselves well to the 'epic' style that seems so popular these days.

Secondly Prague is only one city in the region. If you move outside of that area what do you have as far as product quality and suitable studio space and equipment. I know of one orchestra in the Balkans that works VERY cheaply and you get your money's worth.

Thirdly as Prague becomes more popular so the prices are going to go up which will push people solely concerned with the bottom line farther East (see below)



> This is just an exploration into the idea behind recording abroad, in terms of business model, musical results, musicianship, union terms etc for research. I mean basically the cost and musicianship is great, along with the service so from one angle it makes perfect sense to go abroad. Does this lose work for local musicians and is that something worth thinking about?



Any 'exploration' should also consider the history of the business. I did my first professional recording session in Chicago at age 16. I'm now in my late 60's. Here's how the business 'evolved'. In the late 60's and early 70's there was lots of commercial and movie recording going on in Chicago. Even as a university student I was able to pay my tuition plus have quite a surplus with what I got out of the studios. I am still being paid residuals for some of those recordings. 

In the mid-70's virtually all the commercial and cinema work left Chicago for LA as it was cheaper to have all the work centered in one place which worked fine for those in LA for about a decade....not so fine for the majority of Chicago studio musicians.

Then sometime in the 80's work started moving to Great Britain because orchestras and studios were cheaper than in LA . So GB had a field day UNTIL it was discovered that the continent was cheaper at which point all the work began moving and is continuing to move farther and farther East. Little commercial work remains in Chicago, a little more in LA but the big studio orchestras are disappearing or have already. Now London is experiencing the same. Soon Prague is going to go up in price.

Do you think this migration is going to stop in Eastern Europe? Columbo reputedly has a pretty good orchestra that'll work for cheap. Make sure you figure airfares into your budgets.


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## Rv5 (Apr 8, 2014)

All good stuff!


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