# 2022 New Synth Platform



## José Herring (Jan 1, 2022)

Yesterday was my birthday and today 2022 is here and it's time for Mr. Herring to decide on what synth platform I'm going to learn this year as a birthday gift to myself. 

During the never ending pandemic of the great year of our lord 2020 I decide that in my lifetime I had time to learn one new synth platform per year. At the time I was deciding I was learning ZebraHZ which I got for myself as a Birthday gift. 

2121 came and though I had started the debate in 2020, it was a toss up between MSoundFactory and Falcon. Though my heart was with Falcon my head and my wallet went with MSoundFactory on sale and discounted because I was an owner of MPowersynth. So 2021 was devoted to learning MSoundFactory and then out of nowhere PHASEPLANT!!!! stole the show so I learned both. 

2022 is upon us and this year I was sure I was going with Falcon but........out of nowhere Halion which was running in last place, like dead last place, like I wouldn't buy Halion if they gave me money to use it last place, it shot up out of nowhere and now is neck and neck with Falcon.

Then I keep having thoughts about starting my own sample company, so Hise is looking good as a VI delivery but I don't think I'm considering it as a multi platform synth program so it may be in a separate category. 

Between Falcon, Halion and Hise wondering what are your thoughts? Also, any other systems I should be considering? The criterion is that the platform must support multiple styles of synthesis. Not just be a wavetable, synth or another analog emulation or FM synth but one capaple of doing all types of synthesis. Reason was my first mutli platform synth love so that kind started the trend. When that one started to flake I started to look for others that were capable of doing several types of known synthesis in one program.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 1, 2022)

Hey J. First of all, I sincerely wish you all the best for this next year. I bet it will be your best one yet. Oh, and know that whenever you are ready to release whatever your very first VI is going to be, I’m planning on becoming customer #1. 

That said, let’s talk flagship synths. I am willing to elaborate later, but this is my gut reaction.

1. Definitely seriously consider to eventually use HISE as your development platform to build your own instruments. I like what I see and hear in virtual instruments by the likes of Felt Instruments and @d.healey. 

2. Falcon 2 is a GREAT sounding multi-sampler and modular synthesizer. Its sampling capabilities are fantastic, it performs and delivers. The synth options are way broader and most of the times also deeper than Halion’s. It has LUA scripting and you get to create macros and your own UI. But once you’re ready to launch an actual UVI Workstation instrument for some serious go-to-market you’re going to have to sign license deals with UVI.

3. Halion 6 recently surprised me, in three ways. One, its sampler is actually like my old E-mu’s. An actual sampler. I sat down the other day and was able to record my Fender Rhodes chromatically from WITHIN Halion, and it chopped up and mapped all individual notes automatically. No clue if Falcon let’s you do that, but I’ve never seen that option in there. A neat feature, it feels like an actual and really useful thing to have in a… sampler. Two, the wavetable editing and resynthesis option is really good. Three, and this is more important maybe, Halion has great options to create an actual instrument based on all the UI and macroknob tweaking (and LUA) options it has, and let you wrap that up as an actual free HalionSONIC SE instrument. No hassle, and as far as I know, no further issues. One could just release it without any further encrypting or licensing via Steinberg. I guess this resembles how you could release a Full Kontakt library, except your potential customers would only need to get the free player. No need to invest in an expensive sampler like Kontakt.

Halion also has some downsides: it doesn’t seem to get as many updates (features and otherwise) as Falcon does. Its sequencers aren’t even close to Falcon’s in terms of functionality. (The arpeggiator is nice though). It needs more synthesis options, like physical modelling and especially FM. Yamaha should really just take Montage’s excellent FM engine and port that over to Halion 7 at some point. Also, check some recent posts by Crocus Soundware. Their Liminal instruments are great examples of good Halion development, yet they’ve now also released the same instruments for Kontakt. That’s telling. Of course, Kontakt is the elephant in the room here anyway, if we’re talking about “frictionless adoption of new instruments”. HISE lets you develop stuff that is completely transparent for the user, it’s a VST that you use in your DAW. The extra steps that are involved to get a free Steinberg player, get that to work, authorize stuff etc. is usually a real hurdle for a lot of people - which I (partly) understand. At the end of the day, most people do not want “yet another player” and still prefer Kontakt.

For pure synth fun and functionality in terms of your own music production, at this point? Falcon 2 still wins. It also complements MSF and Phase Plant really well. MSF is great to have around for the really geeky stuff and sounds “modern” (your own words José, from an old thread - but true) and Phase Plant is just great to use, but lacks in the sequencing and sampling department. Falcon 2 is the middle ground between those two in terms of ease of use… but definitely packs a lot of punch sonically and in terms of sheer synthesis power.

(But yeah, don’t sleep on Halion 6. I recently crossgraded into it for 100 bucks and that is just incredible bang for the buck)


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## doctoremmet (Jan 1, 2022)

Oh! And congratulations, happy birthday mate.


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## KEM (Jan 1, 2022)

Happy birthday my friend!! And if you’re planning on making your own samples you better get me in on that!!


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## liquidlino (Jan 1, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Yesterday was my birthday and today 2022 is here and it's time for Mr. Herring to decide on what synth platform I'm going to learn this year as a birthday gift to myself.
> 
> During the never ending pandemic of the great year of our lord 2020 I decide that in my lifetime I had time to learn one new synth platform per year. At the time I was deciding I was learning ZebraHZ which I got for myself as a Birthday gift.
> 
> ...


Hi - I think a first set of questions are:

1. What sort of sample patches are you looking to make - is it deep sampled, multi-samples, round robins etc? Or less deep sampled, but more focused on sound design?
2. Do you want to develop/code sophisticated GUIs and scripting etc?
3. What are your target audience? Is it Media Composer Pros / General bedroom producers / etc?
4. What will price point be? If it is to be below a certain point (which judging from the market place is below $100 rrp), then you'll likely drop off the radar of things like Kontakt Player, UVI Workstation etc, as they all incur fairly heavy licensing costs to my understanding

I think the answers to above will inform a lot which path you go down... for instance, if it was really sound design with minimal depth of sampling, Pigments would be a great choice - it's widely used, cheap, easy and cheap to create and distribute Libraries for it. But there's no coding or scripting etc - it's not a full featured sampler. Then at the other end of the spectrum is Kontakt - obviously the number one most popular sampler platform in the world, by a HUGE margin, with full scripting available, tons of resources etc.

Falcon (which I have) is really great, but I think as a small sample library developer it isn't great for developing (very few resources online for LUA scripting in Falcon), and I'm led to believe the licensing costs are prohibitive, and home made un-licensed libraries are just not very user-friendly to use (it's almost like UVI have willfully made it this way). Full falcon I think has a much much smaller user base than Kontakt Full, and you need to license to get content out for UVI workstation. The relative scarcity of third party developers for UVI I think says a lot.

I don't have any experience with HALion or Hise.


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## Alchemedia (Jan 1, 2022)

Happy Birthday Jose! I just want to echo everything @doctoremmet said. Couldn't agree more.


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## heisenberg (Jan 1, 2022)

Yes!! ¡Happy Birthday José! And like others I agree that doctoremmet's post is filled with good and valuable information. Of particular interest to yours truly are his comments on Halion.


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## el-bo (Jan 1, 2022)

¡Feliz Cumpleaños Tío!


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## José Herring (Jan 1, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Hi - I think a first set of questions are:
> 
> 1. What sort of sample patches are you looking to make - is it deep sampled, multi-samples, round robins etc? Or less deep sampled, but more focused on sound design?
> 2. Do you want to develop/code sophisticated GUIs and scripting etc?
> ...


Thank you for your reply. Yes, the sample development is mostly in its "what if" stages at the moment. On the grand scale it would be a full instrument that would be like Omnsphere but rather than it being synth based it would be more like a media scoring rompler. On the more realistic stage it would be a series of boutique instruments that lie in the realm between sound design and sample instruments. I don't want to give away too much because it is a unique idea that would be easy as pie for some larger developer to copy yet I think there would be a market for it in all genres of music. 


doctoremmet said:


> Hey J. First of all, I sincerely wish you all the best for this next year. I bet it will be your best one yet. Oh, and know that whenever you are ready to release whatever your very first VI is going to be, I’m planning on becoming customer #1.
> 
> That said, let’s talk flagship synths. I am willing to elaborate later, but this is my gut reaction.
> 
> ...


I ended up getting the Danny Lux libraries for Halion SE and boy do they sound good. Maybe a little too refined for my taste but certainly something that I've been trying to achieve for a while. Looking at the patches seems like Halion is a really capable piece of software. 

You know how I feel about Falcon. It's the Mach 5 I've always wanted so part of me wants to just get it so that after 20 years since Mach 5's release I can finally say I have it. I'll check ou the luminal instruments.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 2, 2022)

I ended up getting all of Danny Lux’ stuff in order to be able to steal cool ideas. Halion is great and Falcon still is my desert island synth. I have also bought Cornucopia for Halion by Simon Stockhausen, and I have to say his patches -as usual- have so many clever ideas… That said, I feel maybe the best way forward is to get Falcon first. Since you own Kontakt there will be a good Halion crossgrade offer during the next Steinberg sale.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I ended up getting all of Danny Lux’ stuff in order to be able to steal cool ideas. Halion is great and Falcon still is my desert island synth. I have also bought Cornucopia for Halion by Simon Stockhausen, and I have to say his patches -as usual- have so many clever ideas… That said, I feel maybe the best way forward is to get Falcon first. Since you own Kontakt there will be a good Halion crossgrade offer during the next Steinberg sale.


I'm feeling like Falcon may finally be the one. Halion is looking good but there's something about it that I'm just not willing to learn right now. Not very scientific approach. But that's where it's at. 

So HZ my secret synth mentor. He's my synth mentor only he doesn't know it  but he had a discussion about the "core" sound of a synth. Why he liked Zebra for it's upfront sound in comparison to other synth. So I did an unofficial core sound shout out with all my synths. It was so good for me to compare all my synths in the raw side by side. 

Using ZebraHZ as the base I compared the unfiltered synths in supersaw configuration, only using 2 saw waves detuned so that synths without multi osc could join in on the fun. 

Findings: ZebrahHZ has a wide stereo field, the sound is indeed really upfront but with a lot of depth and motion. It's sound is really good. 

Slightly better, PhasePlant but it took a little to get the same stereo spread but that's good because you can dial in the right amount. 

Surprisingly sounding more upfront and having more depth than both was MSoundFactory. Which was cool. MPowersynth sounded great but the low end suffers a little. I always assumed that MPowersynth and MsoundFactory shared the same engine but MSoundFactory was way better. Way more depth, more solid low end. 

Synapses Obsession as far as raw sound it was up there with MSoundFactory. Obsession being more of an analog emulation of course had a lot more motion in the osc than any of them except for probably ZebraHZ. Really love Obsession. 

I'm hoping that UVI has great synth core engine. I have so many analog style synths now that I'm looking forward to explore more digital style synths like Graintable and Additive and FM.

How's the factory library in Falcon2 btw?


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

Falcon’s natural habitat is digital. Great dedicated 4OP FM oscillators, excellent CPU killer IRCAM granular oscs, the pluck PM stuff. It all sounds very very good. Halion’s wavetable editor kind of outshines Falcon. And Falcon’s sampler is of course terrific too, and there are the gazillion other options and the most excellent effects.

Despite @Pier’s recent blasphemous rumour campaign against the factory library, it isn’t half bad. As a matter of fact it is quite good. Besides, what does he know, he sold it after a week (only kidding Pier - I highly respect your opinions!)


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

Falcon by Louis Couka


Falcon 2 Creative Hybrid Instrument www.uvi.net/falcon.html The new version of our flagship hybrid instrument. Explore the intersection of sampling and synthesis with unlimited layering of 16 unique




soundcloud.app.goo.gl


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

After a purchase UVI will send you a voucher to buy one (or two - I forget) of their Falcon preset packs. There’s a recent thread discussing those. Most of them are really good and acquiring a couple can help you get more creative ideas and increase your sample arsenal for further sound design.







My experience so far with expansions for Falcon and PhasePlant


Falcon expansions cost $39 and include about 100-130 presets. PhasePlant content banks cost $29 and include about 50 presets. While I love EDM, I'm not really into dubstep/trance/techno and the like, so I mostly purchased cinematic-themed libraries so far. PhasePlant What I like about...




vi-control.net


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## liquidlino (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I'm feeling like Falcon may finally be the one. Halion is looking good but there's something about it that I'm just not willing to learn right now. Not very scientific approach. But that's where it's at.
> 
> So HZ my secret synth mentor. He's my synth mentor only he doesn't know it  but he had a discussion about the "core" sound of a synth. Why he liked Zebra for it's upfront sound in comparison to other synth. So I did an unofficial core sound shout out with all my synths. It was so good for me to compare all my synths in the raw side by side.
> 
> ...


If you can provide basic details of the test, I'm sure we can record you the same test from falcon. Also pigments, I think that has a surprisingly cinematic and mixable sound, if we are talking about saw wave synthesis.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> You get a 100 dollar voucher that can be spent on anything from uvi.


Ah yes. And they also used to send a voucher every January if you’ve purchased something in the last 12 months.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Falcon’s natural habitat is digital. Great dedicated 4OP FM oscillators, excellent CPU killer IRCAM granular oscs, the pluck PM stuff. It all sounds very very good. Halion’s wavetable editor kind of outshines Falcon. And Falcon’s sampler is of course terrific too, and there are the gazillion other options and the most excellent effects.
> 
> Despite @Pier’s recent blasphemous rumour campaign against the factory library, it isn’t half bad. As a matter of fact it is quite good. Besides, what does he know, he sold it after a week (only kidding Pier - I highly respect your opinions!)


This is my impression too after hearing so many demos of Falcon. It lives in the digital world rather than the Analog. I know it has Analog osc but I didn't find them to be THAT great compared to PhasePlant and Zebra or the best virtual analog copies.


liquidlino said:


> If you can provide basic details of the test, I'm sure we can record you the same test from falcon. Also pigments, I think that has a surprisingly cinematic and mixable sound, if we are talking about saw wave synthesis.


It's a very simple test just made to judge the raw sound of the synth. Completely not scientific. I did do a scientific test before looking at wave analyzers ect but that lead no where. I mean it put Reason's Thor at the top of the pack as the synth that has the most accurate wave forms but I have long experience with Thor and know it doesn't tack up to Zebra. 

I was amazed though at how effective the test was. I also failed to mention that LUSH 101 and Tal Jupiter 8 did also an amazing job on this test. LUSH has always been a CPU hog so I don't use it but it is a really great sounding Roland style synth. Next I'm going to test mono analogue synths for bass responses. 

The test for the poly synth was just stupid simple. two osc if the synth was capable of doing a super saw I just used the osc set to 2 if not I'd use two distinct osc. A little bit of detune around 3% just enough to hear it beating and widening the sound. Then I just bang away at chords and arps in various octaves to get a sense of the sound. I'd level match as well looking at the meter make sure that "upfront" sound wasn't just "louder".


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## Pier (Jan 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Despite @Pier’s recent blasphemous rumour campaign against the factory library, it isn’t half bad. As a matter of fact it is quite good. Besides, what does he know, he sold it after a week (only kidding Pier - I highly respect your opinions!)


LOL

BTW I haven't sold it, but just because I have to wait 90 days!

José, if you do get Falcon, I'd love to hear your impressions since we seem to agree on Zebra and PhasePlant. I wasn't very impressed with the factory library but I've always added that it was a very superficial impression since I only skimmed it for an hour or two.

I'd agree Falcon is more on the digital side of things, but personally what I disliked about it was the workflow and not the sound. Purely for synth sounds (no samples) I enjoy working with Zebra or PhasePlant *a lot* more even if on paper Falcon is more powerful. I've very rarely hit the limits of Zebra, and I don't think I will hit the limits of PhasePlant any time soon.


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## mscp (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> It's a very simple test just made to judge the raw sound of the synth. Completely not scientific. I did do a scientific test before looking at wave analyzers ect but that lead no where. I mean it put Reason's Thor at the top of the pack as the synth that has the most accurate wave forms but I have long experience with Thor and know it doesn't tack up to Zebra.


A perfect waveform is always going to sound thin (in essence). Falcon is a bit transparent (not much under the hood programming); hence how cold/thin it sounds. I like that as "uncoloured" sounds gives more leeway/room for sound designing.

Zebra and others on the other hand which people perceive "warmth" is due to how the software was written (the intellectual property aspect). I'd never use Zebra to sculpt a super clean/clinical patch.

In hardware, it's down to the electronics (what's been used in the PCB/...)


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> LOL
> 
> BTW I haven't sold it, but just because I have to wait 90 days!
> 
> ...


I'm not overly concerned with the factory library it would just be nice for those sounds that I may need from time to time but would never bother to get a dedicated library for it. Mostly I'm looking at the programming. 

Yesterday I decided Falcon was the one then I woke up this morning thinking about Pigments and Halion again. Ugggg.... I hate making this yearly decision.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

mscp said:


> A perfect waveform is always going to sound thin (in essence). Falcon is a bit transparent (not much under the hood programming); hence how cold/thin it sounds. I like that as "uncoloured" sounds gives more leeway/room for sound designing.
> 
> Zebra and others on the other hand which people perceive "warmth" is due to how the software was written (the intellectual property aspect). I'd never use Zebra to sculpt a super clean/clinical patch.
> 
> In hardware, it's down to the electronics (what's been used in the PCB/...)


Thor has that perfect wave form but it also has this wierd white noise build up when you play more than one note. It gets really noticeable above middle C as you stack up the polyphony.


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## mscp (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Thor has that perfect wave form but it also has this wierd white noise build up when you play more than one note. It gets really noticeable above middle C as you stack up the polyphony.


I don't know Thor but it makes sense if you're talking about SAW/SQUARE/TRIANGLE waveforms. That's how clinical waveforms behave when stacked up without hard sync and other tricks under the sleeve. If you're playing a SINE (additive) wave, polyphonic playing shouldn't create white noise build up. I'd check for issues.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Pigments is on sale. And if you have labs or anything, you might find it's super cheap in your offers, try logging into arturia. Plus pigments can be resold with no fee. And you can download full spec demo to try (uvi really need to do this with Falcon).


Whoa I can get it for $69 bucks and as a person who use to have quite badly synesthesia the idea of pigments is kind of appealing. I have two days to decide. I may just get pigments and Halion or Falcon. Wonder why Pigments didn't catch on as much as Serum or other synths. Seems like a capable contender.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

Pigments in its current incarnation is pretty damn capable too these days. For $69 it enters no-brainer territory


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Pigments in its current incarnation is pretty damn capable too these days. For $69 it enters no-brainer territory


Right. It's in the cart but then I stopped myself because it doesn't seem like it offers much in the way of other types of synthesis but Wavetable and Analog which I have Vital and Phaseplant for already, plus the Reason Wavetable synths like Europa and Xpanse. Soooooo..... I started thinking which can be dangerous.


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## liquidlino (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Right. It's in the cart but then I stopped myself because it doesn't seem like it offers much in the way of other types of synthesis but Wavetable and Analog which I have Vital and Phaseplant for already, plus the Reason Wavetable synths like Europa and Xpanse. Soooooo..... I started thinking which can be dangerous.


It is very true that pigments doesn't have anything that it is especially notable at, in fact at first glance you might think it's rather limited in scope and function. But that's also it's genius, combined with top notch DSP programming. Creativity often comes from constraints and pigments is just lovely to use, quick, visual, and you never get bad sounds. It's always operating in it's sweet spot. Its granular osc for instance is a doddle to use, and producing instantly musical and gratifying results.


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## liquidlino (Jan 4, 2022)

This soundset for pigments is imho the best purchase I have made since CSS. https://www.resonance-sound.com/product/aiyn-zahev-sounds-expanse-for-pigments-3/


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

And Pigments does additive these days


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## Pier (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Wonder why Pigments didn't catch on as much as Serum or other synths. Seems like a capable contender.


Pigments is really catching up but my impression is Vital has captured a larger part of the Serum wavetable market.

I went through a similar process as you during the past 3-4 months, looking for a new synth platform to sink my time in, while waiting a couple of years for Zebra 3. After trying a lot of stuff out there (including Falcon and Pigments) I decided to focus on PhasePlant and good old Zebra. I also sold most of my virtual synths.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I started thinking which can be dangerous


Typically it’s detrimental for a no brainer purchase - yes.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

I really like the way Pigments sounds. It's really cool sounding aesthetic. I'm in the middle of watching Dark Phoenix and I really like what HZ did with this score. For some reason though I know he used Zebra seems like Pigments could get that sound a lot easier, dark beautiful tender synth work in that movie without sounding maudlin or sentimental. I even like the movie so far and can't understand why all the hate for the film. But at the same time it seems a little under HZ capabilities at this point, but I was thinking that if I got a chance to score that movie I'd be dancing in the streets high fivin' strangers. It's all a matter of perspective really.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Pigments is really catching up but my impression is Vital has captured a larger part of the Serum wavetable market.


Definitely.



Pier said:


> looking for a new synth platform to sink my time in


Outsider tip: Parawave Rapid. I rather unfortunately watched a Sami Rabia video while it was on sale the other day. Yeah - I know…


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## KEM (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I really like the way Pigments sounds. It's really cool sounding aesthetic. I'm in the middle of watching Dark Phoenix and I really like what HZ did with this score. For some reason though I know he used Zebra seems like Pigments could get that sound a lot easier, dark beautiful tender synth work in that movie without sounding maudlin or sentimental. I even like the movie so far and can't understand why all the hate for the film. But at the same time it seems a little under HZ capabilities at this point, but I was thinking that if I got a chance to score that movie I'd be dancing in the streets high fivin' strangers. It's all a matter of perspective really.



I’ve actually been listening to the Dark Phoenix score lately, Frameshift is an absolute banger of a track


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’ve actually been listening to the Dark Phoenix score lately, Frameshift is an absolute banger of a track


He did an amazing job with that score. It's epic without being "EPIC". Movie is good too but I've been into that kind of stuff since I was a kid. Really is kind of on the outside edge of the X-Men franchise though. I guess that's why people didn't dig the movie as much. But for me, it's right at the edge where I start to get really interested in a movie. I haven't seen an X-Men movie since X-Men First Class as that was so boring beyond what I would consider even commercially safe.

The score though is simple in structure but has an amazingly complex mood to it. You feel like the main theme is powerful beyond belief but then it's at the same time you feel real sympathy for the character and the synth programing and expressive dynamics just make it all that more compelling. 

No spoilers though. I won't be able to finish it until tonight or tomorrow.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> LOL
> 
> BTW I haven't sold it, but just because I have to wait 90 days!
> 
> ...


Also what is making me waiver on Falcon is the fact that you mentioned workflow. I feel like that's a big deal for me. I love Phaseplant not only for the sound but the workflow. I'm already in a world of hurt workflow wise with MSoundFactory but I stick to it because hands down it's probably the best sounding synth I've worked with but having to setup a mixer or merger so I can hear two Osc is enough of a buzz kill for me. Maybe the Doc can give me some pointers on how to hook up two or 3 osc without using mixers or mergers so that I can hear them all and get them pumping through the same filter.


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## liquidlino (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Also what is making me waiver on Falcon is the fact that you mentioned workflow. I feel like that's a big deal for me. I love Phaseplant not only for the sound but the workflow. I'm already in a world of hurt workflow wise with MSoundFactory but I stick to it because hands down it's probably the best sounding synth I've worked with but having to setup a mixer or merger so I can hear two Osc is enough of a buzz kill for me. Maybe the Doc can give me some pointers on how to hook up two or 3 osc without using mixers or mergers so that I can hear them all and get them pumping through the same synth.


Whilst pier had a rough time with Falcons workflow, I personally don't have any issues with it. There's definitely some weird quirks that hopefully uvi will improve at some point, but nothing that breaks the workflow. Once you've used falcon for a few days and really taken time to RTFM and watch dan Worrall excellent videos, it's a very simple interface, for something so powerful. But for sure phaseplant workflow is cleaner. But correct me if I'm wrong, phaseplant doesn't do deep multisampling, or deep scripting, or physical modelling. As always with synths, it's up to what you need and what workflow you connect with. And considering you can buy zebra, falcon, phaseplant, pigments, serum and voltage modular all combined for less than the price of a Moog mother32, that's pretty incredible.


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

Falcon isn’t as much of a buzzkill as MSF José - once you get the hang of it. I actually find Halion 6 more difficult to navigate. Falcon is fine really. Although I will admit I have spent a lot of quality time with Phase Plant: what a lovely UI experience…


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

Well, I started off debating three other synths and then ended up with Pigments. Just bought it. Will start learning it tonight. 

It doesn't take Falcon off the table though. I may get that one just so that I can stop thinking about getting it. My piece of mind is worth a lot to me. 

How often does UVI have sales? Also, does anybody know if their old world percussion library is part of the factory content?


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## liquidlino (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Well, I started off debating three other synths and then ended up with Pigments. Just bought it. Will start learning it tonight.
> 
> It doesn't take Falcon off the table though. I may get that one just so that I can stop thinking about getting it. My piece of mind is worth a lot to me.
> 
> How often does UVI have sales? Also, does anybody know if their old world percussion library is part of the factory content?


Uvi sales are semi regular. But the BF sale is the best deal each year. Or buy pier copy, it's about due to hit 90 days I bet. 

I haven't seen world percussion in the factory library. The factory library is mostly if not all electronic sounds. And like Hans said, they are all "showroom" sounds, designed to show off the capabilities of the synth, and be fun to noodle with, but not sounds you would really use in a production, not without some further tweaking to make them darker, simpler etc.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Uvi sales are semi regular. But the BF sale is the best deal each year. Or buy pier copy, it's about due to hit 90 days I bet.
> 
> I haven't seen world percussion in the factory library. The factory library is mostly if not all electronic sounds. And like Hans said, they are all "showroom" sounds, designed to show off the capabilities of the synth, and be fun to noodle with, but not sounds you would really use in a production, not without some further tweaking to make them darker, simpler etc.


This little off the cuff nugget of synth scoring wisdom from HZ changed the way I program synths. I'm finally able to get the sounds I've been hearing out of my synths.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Uvi sales are semi regular. But the BF sale is the best deal each year. Or buy pier copy, it's about due to hit 90 days I bet.
> 
> I haven't seen world percussion in the factory library. The factory library is mostly if not all electronic sounds. And like Hans said, they are all "showroom" sounds, designed to show off the capabilities of the synth, and be fun to noodle with, but not sounds you would really use in a production, not without some further tweaking to make them darker, simpler etc.


If @Pier wants to sell me his copy at the end of his term I'll be willing to buy in Feb/March


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2022)

In my lifetime I didn't think I'd come across another synth I loved as much as PhasePlant, but......Pigments is gaining ground on it. Only for the fact for media composing it seems to already have a very visual sound to it, if that makes sense. I got a good viable film sound in about 2 minutes.


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## liquidlino (Jan 4, 2022)

José Herring said:


> In my lifetime I didn't think I'd come across another synth I loved as much as PhasePlant, but......Pigments is gaining ground on it. Only for the fact for media composing it seems to already have a very visual sound to it, if that makes sense. I got a good viable film sound in about 2 minutes.


Yep, that's exactly what I was saying. It just operates in a permanent sweet spot. I don't think you can actually get a bad sound from it, it just doesn't allow it.


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## liquidlino (Jan 4, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Yep, that's exactly what I was saying. It just operates in a permanent sweet spot. I don't think you can actually get a bad sound from it, it just doesn't allow it.


And that magical 3d sound is unique, not heard that from anything else.


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## KEM (Jan 5, 2022)

José Herring said:


> In my lifetime I didn't think I'd come across another synth I loved as much as PhasePlant, but......Pigments is gaining ground on it. Only for the fact for media composing it seems to already have a very visual sound to it, if that makes sense. I got a good viable film sound in about 2 minutes.



But… Zebra!!!


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> But… Zebra!!!


Great synth no doubt. I got into synthesis in the rompler days with synths like the Korg M1, Korg 01w/fd and the JV880. To this day I still do better with sample based synthesis, wavetables, sample mangling ect... I get it. I can get along with straight up analog modeled synths with standard waves like saw, triangle and square waves but it's a lot harder for me and I don't really enjoy it that much. But I can hear a sample and a wavetable and carve out the sound I want. Funny that I can even sample an analog synth or virtual analog style synth and I can even work with that better. So often for synths like Zebra I'll just create some unique wave and sample it and work it in a sampler.


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## KEM (Jan 5, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Great synth no doubt. I got into synthesis in the rompler days with synths like the Korg M1, Korg 01w/fd and the JV880. To this day I still do better with sample based synthesis, wavetables, sample mangling ect... I get it. I can get along with straight up analog modeled synths with standard waves like saw, triangle and square waves but it's a lot harder for me and I don't really enjoy it that much. But I can hear a sample and a wavetable and carve out the sound I want. Funny that I can even sample an analog synth or virtual analog style synth and I can even work with that better. So often for synths like Zebra I'll just create some unique wave and sample it and work it in a sampler.



I kinda have the same mindset, pure synthesis has always been a weak point for me, I find it takes much more time to get something inspiring out of a synth than it does from organic samples, even when the filters and effects are all the same, but Zebra definitely pushes me to improve that skillset so I’m sticking with it. I’ve never looked at a single UVI product before so I have no idea what Falcon even is, I know Halion is a Steinberg product and for some reason I’ve always had this idea that anything “stock” or made by a DAW manufacturer has to just be complete garbage, and I’ve yet to check out Pigments cause I’m too busy thinking about which hardware recreation I want to get next from them lol


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2022)

KEM said:


> I kinda have the same mindset, pure synthesis has always been a weak point for me, I find it takes much more time to get something inspiring out of a synth than it does from organic samples, even when the filters and effects are all the same, but Zebra definitely pushes me to improve that skillset so I’m sticking with it. I’ve never looked at a single UVI product before so I have no idea what Falcon even is, I know Halion is a Steinberg product and for some reason I’ve always had this idea that anything “stock” or made by a DAW manufacturer has to just be complete garbage, and I’ve yet to check out Pigments cause I’m too busy thinking about which hardware recreation I want to get next from them lol


I started to improve a lot with Analog synths when I got the Arturia microbrute. My first true analog synth. Simple enough to understand but powerful enough to get me into trouble.

Halion has always been great. I remember when it first came out. It was great then. It's always been convoluted though but it seems to have gotten better over the years. Never junk but just like Cubase itself, way cluttered with "features" that one hardly knows what to do with. I tend to like it simple like Kontakt but having grown up with Hardware samplers having a "sampler" that can't actually sample has always been weird to me. It's like having a car but you have to bring your own heater. You know....hey we have this great state of the art sampler, so advanced that you won't even need to sample.

Pigments is turning out to be way cool though. Not as powerful sounding as Zebra or Phaseplant though. But definitely working the film aesthetic.


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## Pier (Jan 5, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Outsider tip: Parawave Rapid. I rather unfortunately watched a Sami Rabia video while it was on sale the other day. Yeah - I know…


I've had Rapid on my radar for a couple of years now. Cameron from Venus Theory also loves it.

What's stopping me is that licenses are NFR. You can demo it, but in truth it's difficult to get a good impression of a synth in a couple of hours.


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## José Herring (Jan 5, 2022)

Finished Dark Phoenix. Great score. The score was definitely the highlight of the movie. The movie itself was fantastic until the end, then any and all of the great lead up in the script just about died and it ended in a typical continuous action scene that hardly made any sense in the context of the movie. Kind of like they made the decision to go that way because all superhero movies end in a big battle. 

Can tell the Zebra was doing the heavy lifting. Just seems like there were so many cues that could have been handled more easily with a synth like Pigments which seems to be tailored made for that scoring sound. 

On the other hand, here's my new debate. Is it better to have a synth that plays it in the pocket like Pigments or the old Alchemy synth, which it's hard to get a too bright sound or too harsh sound from, or is it better to "tame a beast" like ZebraHZ or Phaseplant or Obession. Having all that bubbling energy that feels like it could explode at any moment but that's been tamed enough to work with underscore.


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## Pier (Jan 5, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Also what is making me waiver on Falcon is the fact that you mentioned workflow. I feel like that's a big deal for me. I love Phaseplant not only for the sound but the workflow. I'm already in a world of hurt workflow wise with MSoundFactory but I stick to it because hands down it's probably the best sounding synth I've worked with but having to setup a mixer or merger so I can hear two Osc is enough of a buzz kill for me. Maybe the Doc can give me some pointers on how to hook up two or 3 osc without using mixers or mergers so that I can hear them all and get them pumping through the same filter.


That sounds like me LOL

I spent maybe 15-20 hours with Falcon when I decided it wasn't for me. From the first moment I kept telling myself I just needed to get used to it, but the longer I used it, the less I liked using it.

With PhasePlant I was 100% productive during the first hour.


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## storyteller (Jan 5, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Well, I started off debating three other synths and then ended up with Pigments. Just bought it. Will start learning it tonight.
> 
> It doesn't take Falcon off the table though. I may get that one just so that I can stop thinking about getting it. My piece of mind is worth a lot to me.
> 
> How often does UVI have sales? Also, does anybody know if their old world percussion library is part of the factory content?


I just picked Pigments too. Ha. I'm on a similar journey learning a new synth this year. Good choice. I'm really liking it much more compared to all of the other demos I've tried.


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## Pier (Jan 5, 2022)

José Herring said:


> On the other hand, here's my new debate. Is it better to have a synth that plays it in the pocket like Pigments or the old Alchemy synth, which it's hard to get a too bright sound or too harsh sound from, or is it better to "tame a beast" like ZebraHZ or Phaseplant or Obession. Having all that bubbling energy that feels like it could explode at any moment but that's been tamed enough to work with underscore.


IMHO:

If thinking long term, I'd go with a Land Rover over a Tesla.

If one is going to invest serious time into something, it better be a thing that will go with you all the way. A Land Rover might not be the best vehicle to go to the supermarket, but it can navigate in most terrains. You could easily travel all over the world with it. Not so much with a shiny and cool Tesla.

Zebra is that kind of thing, I'd say PhasePlant too. I guess Falcon too, even if it's not for me.

There's a reason Zebra is still in heavy use, 15 or so years after its release. Of course it sounds great but I think is its flexibility and workflow that keep it relevant. Just like PhasePlant, it has the right balance between power, flexibility, and workflow.

Pigments is fun to use, and can produce interesting tones, but it's definitely not a flexible synth. IMO Arturia sacrificed too much to simplify its workflow. It's more like a Tesla in this respect.

I guess in the end it depends on the type of terrain you want to traverse.


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## Pier (Jan 5, 2022)

José Herring said:


> If @Pier wants to sell me his copy at the end of his term I'll be willing to buy in Feb/March


There's already a buyer for it but I'll DM you if they change their mind.

Look around Knobcloud too. https://www.knobcloud.com/i/25983/uvi-falcon-2-5 (There's someone selling a license for €180.)


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## SupremeFist (Feb 10, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> This soundset for pigments is imho the best purchase I have made since CSS. https://www.resonance-sound.com/product/aiyn-zahev-sounds-expanse-for-pigments-3/


I literally just bought Pigments on sale for this soundset. Sounds incredible, and I love the look and overall UX of the synth at large so far. Seems like I might end up rationalising my go-to synths to Zebra + Diva + Re-Pro + Pigments. 🤘🏻


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## doctoremmet (Feb 10, 2022)

@Pier I ended up buying Rapid. Great sounding synth - the resynthesis option is great too.

Also: yesterday I spent time with Anima in Halion 6. It sounded ridiculously good. Like, REALLY good. Lol.


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## SupremeFist (Feb 10, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> I literally just bought Pigments on sale for this soundset. Sounds incredible, and I love the look and overall UX of the synth at large so far. Seems like I might end up rationalising my go-to synths to Zebra + Diva + Re-Pro + Pigments. 🤘🏻


Having said that I just realized I also don't yet want to go without bx_oberhausen, Alchemy, DCO-106, or Mercury, so yeah I will probably never slim down my synths...


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## José Herring (Feb 13, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> Having said that I just realized I also don't yet want to go without bx_oberhausen, Alchemy, DCO-106, or Mercury, so yeah I will probably never slim down my synths...


I tried to do this but failed miserably. I wish I could be like HZ and just use one main synth but I can't.


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## CATDAD (Feb 13, 2022)

Lately I've pared things down to being mostly Pigments+Hydrasynth+Minibrute2S+6U rack+Chromaphone. Pigments for fast results in the box, Hydra for fast results out of the box, Minibrute and a small rack cover the analog mono fatness and modular weirdness, and Chromaphone is just for when I want something different than a traditional synth (it makes cool pad/drone textures too, not just percussion!) I still have a bunch of other stuff that I'm sure I'll go back to (if not just for some handy presets!) but it's good to have a shortlist of go-to tools.

Something I'm coming to terms with more recently is the idea that in digital synthesis I can just make several instances and layer them together, doesn't all have to be done in one patch! A lot of sound design is done that way with just raw waveforms, synths don't need to be any different when you have an infinite amount of them! Also some good FX plugins help for the times Pigments' FX routing isn't quite expansive enough, or you want to glue a few patches together.


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## Pier (Feb 15, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I tried to do this but failed miserably. I wish I could be like HZ and just use one main synth but I can't.


What are you missing from Zebra?


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## José Herring (Feb 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> What are you missing from Zebra?


Zebra is a great synth, I just miss sample import and true wavetables. Rather than do a whole new synth in Zebra 3 I kind of wish that U-he would just add those features to Zebra 2.


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## Pier (Feb 15, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Zebra is a great synth, I just miss sample import and true wavetables. Rather than do a whole new synth in Zebra 3 I kind of wish that U-he would just add those features to Zebra 2.


I agree about samples and wavetables. I actually asked on KVR if Zebra 3 would allow importing samples and Urs said no. AFAIK Zebra 3 will include the same WT engine as Hive.

As a dev it makes sense to let Zebra 2 die though. It's a very old project and it would need a massive rewrite to include certain features, at which point you're better off starting a new project from scratch.

It's really annoying how slow U-He is at developing new products or even improving old ones. KiloHearts will probably introduce all the features PhasePlant is missing from Zebra before Zebra 3 is released 😂


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## José Herring (Feb 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> I agree about samples and wavetables. I actually asked on KVR if Zebra 3 would allow importing samples and Urs said no. AFAIK Zebra 3 will include the same WT engine as Hive.
> 
> As a dev it makes sense to let Zebra 2 die though. It's a very old project and it would need a massive rewrite to include certain features, at which point you're better off starting a new project from scratch.
> 
> It's really annoying how slow U-He is at developing new products or even improving old ones. KiloHearts will probably introduce all the features PhasePlant is missing from Zebra before Zebra 3 is released 😂


I just fell in love with Phaseplant. If ever there was a synth that just is organized exactly the way I think it would be Phaseplant. I can't figure out audio rate modulation or MSEG in phaseplant though. So if they are not already included then once those features are included it would be a perfect synth for me. I was cranking out HZ Dune pads on it within a few hours of programming. I couldn't figure it out with any other synth.


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## Pier (Feb 15, 2022)

José Herring said:


> I can't figure out audio rate modulation or MSEG in phaseplant though.


MSEGs are actually called custom LFOs. If you click on the pencil button of the LFO you can edit the shape just like you do in Zebra or Dune.






To modulate at audio rate you need to use the output of an oscillator (there's a green + sign). The destinations for audio rate modulation can only be in the voice structure not the effects. When you click the green + button you will see the available destinations.

See this:


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## José Herring (Feb 15, 2022)

Pier said:


> MSEGs are actually called custom LFOs. If you click on the pencil button of the LFO you can edit the shape just like you do in Zebra or Dune.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh wow! Thx! 

As far as audio rate modulation I need to modulate the PW. As far as I know, I don't think I can do that which seems like an odd oversight or I'm just missing it. Maybe modulating the Phase might give me the same effect.


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## lychee (Feb 16, 2022)

I'm looking for a plugin with a resynthesis algorithm to recompose an acoustic instrument based on a sample.

The goal is to have more possibilities for sound manipulation than in a sampled library, as I explained in this thread.

As said by doctoremmet, I know Rapid has this option, but what other plugin has this with quality rendering on output, so I can have more choices?


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## Pier (Feb 16, 2022)

lychee said:


> but what other plugin has this with quality rendering on output, so I can have more choices?


Alchemy and MSoundFactory have something similar.

My limited understanding is those analyze the sound and extract the partials which are then reproduced by an additive synthesis engine.


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## Pier (Feb 16, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Oh wow! Thx!
> 
> As far as audio rate modulation I need to modulate the PW. As far as I know, I don't think I can do that which seems like an odd oversight or I'm just missing it. Maybe modulating the Phase might give me the same effect.


You're right, that's not possible. You could use an LFO but it only goes up to 50Hz.


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## KEM (May 1, 2022)

Pier said:


> I agree about samples and wavetables. I actually asked on KVR if Zebra 3 would allow importing samples and Urs said no. AFAIK Zebra 3 will include the same WT engine as Hive.
> 
> As a dev it makes sense to let Zebra 2 die though. It's a very old project and it would need a massive rewrite to include certain features, at which point you're better off starting a new project from scratch.
> 
> It's really annoying how slow U-He is at developing new products or even improving old ones. KiloHearts will probably introduce all the features PhasePlant is missing from Zebra before Zebra 3 is released 😂



This sucks to hear because one of my biggest feature requests for Zebra 3 would be the ability to import .wav files as waveforms, exactly like Serum allows you to do, I really want to be able to use Virus waveforms in Zebra. And on the topic of Virus stuff in Zebra I really want the classic Virus filter in Zebra


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## Pier (May 1, 2022)

KEM said:


> This sucks to hear because one of my biggest feature requests for Zebra 3 would be the ability to import .wav files as waveforms, exactly like Serum allows you to do, I really want to be able to use Virus waveforms in Zebra. And on the topic of Virus stuff in Zebra I really want the classic Virus filter in Zebra


"AFAIK Zebra 3 will include the same WT engine as Hive."

Hive allows you to import .wav files as wavetables 

Also, I remember years ago someone had made some Virus oscillators into Zebra 2 wavetables. You might find them if you look around.

There's Virus stuff in here too (CMD + F)






Zebra Family Presets







u-he.com


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## KEM (May 1, 2022)

Pier said:


> "AFAIK Zebra 3 will include the same WT engine as Hive."
> 
> Hive allows you to import .wav files as wavetables
> 
> ...



Yeah I have those downloaded, but it doesn’t seem to be as clean as Serum’s import, at least not in the way it looks since it’s specto and not just a normal waveform. And I didn’t know Hive allowed you to import .wav files like that, as soon as I get home I’m adding the Virus waveforms I have in Serum into Hive!!

Now we just need the Virus filters in Zebra and it’s perfect


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## Pier (May 1, 2022)

KEM said:


> Now we just need the Virus filters in Zebra and it’s perfect


I think Dune has some filters modelled after the Virus. And it can import samples.


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## KEM (May 1, 2022)

Pier said:


> I think Dune has some filters modelled after the Virus. And it can import samples.



That’s the next synth I’m buying for sure


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## Paul_xyz (May 3, 2022)

Pier said:


> You're right, that's not possible. You could use an LFO but it only goes up to 50Hz.


Using the LFO editor in phaseplant, it's possible to draw in far more than just a single cycle for every actual LFO cycle, giving an effective LFO rate far higher than 50Hz - well into audio rate.


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## Pier (May 3, 2022)

Paul_xyz said:


> Using the LFO editor in phaseplant, it's possible to draw in far more than just a single cycle for every actual LFO cycle, giving an effective LFO rate far higher than 50Hz - well into audio rate.


Good point!


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## muratkayi (May 3, 2022)

I recently fell in love with using noise as a modulation source for anything BUT the voices themselves...did I get that right that this would not be possible in Phaseplant?


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## Paul_xyz (May 4, 2022)

Can get workable digital noise using a 50Hz LFO, going into LFO editor, setting it to 128 horizontal grid and going mad just drawing in a mass of random peaks and troughs. Create a "random" set to 50Hz. Now create a "multiply" and route the LFO to input A and the random to input B. Use the "static multiplier" field to dial in the "flavor". Route the output of this to where you want.


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## GtrString (May 4, 2022)

Synths is a field where it's easy to get lost. I think they have identity problems.

Might be better to give your synths, names, and assign a personality to them, that you can pull out when doing new projects.

You don't need more friends - you need to spend more quality time with the ones you have.

With that said, the Softube synths are waaarm, guuey, mmmmh


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## muratkayi (May 4, 2022)

Paul_xyz said:


> Can get workable digital noise using a 50Hz LFO, going into LFO editor, setting it to 128 horizontal grid and going mad just drawing in a mass of random peaks and troughs. Create a "random" set to 50Hz. Now create a "multiply" and route the LFO to input A and the random to input B. Use the "static multiplier" field to dial in the "flavor". Route the output of this to where you want.


Hi, thanks for the reply. My inquiry was mainly about the routing my modulation source not being able to be directed anywhere I want, like FX, envelopes and the like. Maybe I misunderstood parts of the conversation here, but that was the impression I got.


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## Paul_xyz (May 4, 2022)

In case it helps, here's a clarification:

noise is a generator type, so can be routed at audio rate within the generator section - but it can't be routed to modulation (eg envelopes/LFOs) or FX.

there isn't noise as a modulator for routing to the FX/modulation (eg envelopes), but using the method I mentioned (random x LFO with a drawn in "noise" pattern) you can route that resulting digital noise to anywhere, including to other modulation and to the FX.


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## muratkayi (May 4, 2022)

Thanks! Got it!


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