# UPDATE, SOLVED: OK Pro Orchestrators with 2000-Track Templates: What Audio Interfaces Do You Use?



## PaulieDC (Dec 8, 2019)

*12-21-19, Update Summarized*: my i9 14-core was cracklin' like a campfire just playing in Garritan CFX at different low buffer sizes, baffled me. Took a shot on a much better interface, RME BabyFace Pro... *what a difference*. At 256 samples I'm getting 5.8ms In and 6.2ms out and the Cubase Audio Performnce meter stays below 20%, with ZERO spikes. No more cheap interfaces, it makes a difference!
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ORIGINAL POST:

I’m trying to figure out how much the AI makes a difference. I know that even the highest-end PCs and Macs can have latency issues within the system and LatencyMon will remind you how inadequate your system is, but for snaps crackles and pops in your orchestral cereal, how much does the AI make a difference? I’m talking for VI Composing and mixing, not concerned about analog XLR inputs, I’ll use dedicated preamps if I need that.

My new Apogee One on a 6-core i7-8750 win laptop w/32GB ram and all-NVMe SSDs gets me clean sound at 128 samples when using SCS. My i9 14-core tower with 128GB ram produces some measure of crackles with Noire at any sample setting, tried 64-1024, with a PreSonus Studio 192 Mobile AI. Changing nothing else, would a higher-end AI make a difference? Yes, I use all the latest updates, etc.

For those who work with huge templates, what do you use? FYI I'm on Cubase Pro 10.5 if that matters.


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## Dirk Ehlert (Dec 8, 2019)

On win10, swear on my RME babyface, solid as a rock. Have it on 512 buffer which translates to 11ms Latency which is totally fine for my needs


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## PaulieDC (Dec 8, 2019)

Dirk Ehlert said:


> On win10, swear on my RME babyface, solid as a rock. Have it on 512 buffer which translates to 11ms Latency which is totally fine for my needs


I keep hearing and RME, I will research! If there are $1500 interfaces and $99 interfaces then there obvuiously has to be a difference. Thanks!


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## PaulieDC (Dec 8, 2019)

The RME babyface Pro has rave reviews, and many keep talking about solid drivers, and it's USB so it works on Windows. Definitely a contender. I only need playback/MIDI input. Several reviewers said they replaced a Focusrite and another brand and their crackling went away. Annnnnd, only $749 and currently at 48 month no-interest financing through 12/31. Hmmmm.....


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## Mihkel Zilmer (Dec 8, 2019)

+1 for RME, have tried a few of their products but for the last 5+ years using an UFX. 

I switched from a Focusrite (Liquid 56 or whatever it was called), and RME allowed me to run the buffer settings one notch lower while getting the same performance.


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 9, 2019)

Motu 1248...very adaptable with an onboard software mixer. Plus a mixer for touch control. No pops or crackles.


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## Manaberry (Dec 9, 2019)

Anyone has tried the UAD Twin X / x4?


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## jononotbono (Dec 9, 2019)

Manaberry said:


> Anyone has tried the UAD Twin X / x4?



I have a Twin X. It's a fantastic interface.


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## Manaberry (Dec 9, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> I have a Twin X. It's a fantastic interface.


I was thinking to buy UAD for months, I will jump on it for Christmas. Thanks for letting me know the awesomeness of this AI


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## JohnG (Dec 9, 2019)

it's a never-ending struggle to reduce latency and maintain quality. 

It's not that easy to do both; the libraries one likes can be super demanding (synth and samples -- both can be hogs). Those demands can mean you have to raise buffers, especially if there are dense passages.

I'm always asking around to see if there's any new trick out there. At the moment, it appears that there's no totally bullet-proof setup if you have a lot of gear trying to go at the same time.


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## jononotbono (Dec 9, 2019)

Manaberry said:


> I was thinking to buy UAD for months, I will jump on it for Christmas. Thanks for letting me know the awesomeness of this AI



I bought one because I wanted to get access to UAD plugins but also for a portable solution I can actually plug a Guitar straight into the HIZ input and it uses the Unity preamps. It’s a very good unit and sounds great. Obviously this is limited with I/O but you can expand it. It’s a flexible system. RME is supposed to be rock solid but I don’t use RME. Of course you could use RME and then get a UA a satellite for plugs etc but I wanted the front end with the unity preamps.


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## fixxer49 (Dec 9, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> I’m trying to figure out how much the AI makes a difference. I know that even the highest-end PCs and Macs can have latency issues within the system and LatencyMon will remind you how inadequate your system is, but for snaps crackles and pops in your orchestral cereal, how much does the AI make a difference? I’m talking for VI Composing and mixing, not concerned about analog XLR inputs, I’ll use dedicated preamps if I need that.
> 
> My new Apogee One on a 6-core i7-8750 win laptop w/32GB ram and all-NVMe SSDs gets me clean sound at 128 samples when using SCS. My i9 14-core tower with 128GB ram produces some measure of crackles with Noire at any sample setting, tried 64-1024, with a PreSonus Studio 192 Mobile AI. Changing nothing else, would a higher-end AI make a difference? Yes, I use all the latest updates, etc.
> 
> For those who work with huge templates, what do you use? FYI I'm on Cubase Pro 10.5 if that matters.


This may not be too helpful, as I believe it’s Mac/Tb only, but I am love with the* apogee element 46*.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Dec 9, 2019)

When I changed from a presonus firepod to rme fireface it was a surprising big difference when recording audio tonewise. Much better I have to say. Probably because of different ad/da converters. Since then I never had issues with latency and pops and clicks. 
But there is also a thread about the topic where it is pointed out that it's not always the interface or low computer specs that cause a problem. Might be also the video or network card that causes an unexpected bottleneck if I remember it right. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the guy who checked it out or the thread but I remember that it helped me to make some good decisions. Might be worth to take a little search on the topic.


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## Andoran (Dec 9, 2019)

Big +1 for RME. I bought a UFX II a few years ago and never looked back. Hasn't given me a single issue, rock solid very fast drivers, impeccable mic pre's, Totalmix is great


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## David Chappell (Dec 9, 2019)

I used a focusrite 2i4 for several years, even with pretty large templates, and altogether it was a pretty decent interface, seemed to manage fine as long as I didn't go too mad with synths and fx.

I bought an RME UFX+ recently, and had severe issues with dropouts as soon as I started using it. RME support was completely non-existent - possibly the worst customer support I've experienced yet - a single reply blaming my computer, both follow up emails ignored, and no attempt to troubleshoot the issue. So I never did get to the bottom of what was causing the dropouts. Potential culprits were ASUS motherboards, X99 motherboards, and Nvidia graphics cards. I'd recommend avoiding RME if you have any of those.

A near full PC rebuild later, it seems to be working... touch wood. Altogether it is a pretty nice interface, I'm just hesitant to recommend them based on my issues (which on googling, did not seem to be a one-off, hence the potential culprits listed) and the complete lack of customer support.


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## Dunshield (Dec 9, 2019)

David Chappell said:


> I bought an RME UFX+ recently, and had severe issues with dropouts as soon as I started using it.



How are and were you connecting the UFX+, through USB or Thunderbolt? It would also be helpful to know which exact port on the computer you are using, or maybe you're using a PCIe thunderbolt card? Am asking because this sounds like a compatibility issue with the chipset and the soundcard.

My RME Fireface 800 has been rock stable for the past 10 years. I run orchestral templates but less than 2000 tracks.


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## ed buller (Dec 9, 2019)

RME....never had any issues


Best

ED


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 9, 2019)

Andoran said:


> Big +1 for RME. I bought a UFX II a few years ago and never looked back. Hasn't given me a single issue, rock solid very fast drivers, impeccable mic pre's, Totalmix is great




I have been on RME Multiface 2 for 10 years now. Always solid (run 1000+track template at 256 samples). The only thing that would get me to change would be NEW (and more) mic pre's. Right now I have a UA (M610) mono mic pre (tube) - love it, warm, human. BUT it is only mono. Thinking about doing some pick up quartet recordings in this space. Would the mic pres on the UFX II be sufficient? (warm enough?)


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## TimCox (Dec 9, 2019)

This thread is making me salivate. Lord I need a new PC and interface, I've been working on a 2048 buffer for so long I don't know if I could play exactly on the beat anymore


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## Andoran (Dec 9, 2019)

Rob Elliott said:


> I have been on RME Multiface 2 for 10 years now. Always solid (run 1000+track template at 256 samples). The only thing that would get me to change would be NEW (and more) mic pre's. Right now I have a UA (M610) mono mic pre (tube) - love it, warm, human. BUT it is only mono. Thinking about doing some pick up quartet recordings in this space. Would the mic pres on the UFX II be sufficient? (warm enough?)


The mic pre's are very transparent. When I need to warm things up a bit I'll use a good tube condenser or ribbon mic, or I also have an Art Pro MPA II stereo tube pre-amp that I'll use and route the output to the Instrument inputs on the UFX, works well.


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## Andoran (Dec 9, 2019)

David Chappell said:


> I used a focusrite 2i4 for several years, even with pretty large templates, and altogether it was a pretty decent interface, seemed to manage fine as long as I didn't go too mad with synths and fx.
> 
> I bought an RME UFX+ recently, and had severe issues with dropouts as soon as I started using it. RME support was completely non-existent - possibly the worst customer support I've experienced yet - a single reply blaming my computer, both follow up emails ignored, and no attempt to troubleshoot the issue. So I never did get to the bottom of what was causing the dropouts. Potential culprits were ASUS motherboards, X99 motherboards, and Nvidia graphics cards. I'd recommend avoiding RME if you have any of those.
> 
> A near full PC rebuild later, it seems to be working... touch wood. Altogether it is a pretty nice interface, I'm just hesitant to recommend them based on my issues (which on googling, did not seem to be a one-off, hence the potential culprits listed) and the complete lack of customer support.


I'm running an I7 5820k on an x99 motherboard (ASRock x99) with an Nvidia gtx 980ti video card and haven't experienced what you described on my UFX II. I couldn't speak to how good RME's customer service is as I've never had the need of their services.


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 9, 2019)

Andoran said:


> The mic pre's are very transparent. When I need to warm things up a bit I'll use a good tube condenser or ribbon mic, or I also have an Art Pro MPA II stereo tube pre-amp that I'll use and route the output to the Instrument inputs on the UFX, works well.



Heck - a good idea. I'll hold onto my tube M610 UA (for certain vocals/ solo instruments) as needed. Be use the pres onboard in most cases.

the UFX II is probably in my 2020 future. No issues with USB 2.0? (surprised they just didn't go with USB 3.0 to 'future proof' it.)


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## JohnG (Dec 9, 2019)

Whenever we have problems it stinks. And it is pretty maddening when you don't get a response.

That said, I have never experienced difficulties with multiple RME 9652 Hammerfall interfaces. You have to scour to find MOBOs with a PCI slot but there's still at least one Gigabyte out there that does it. Did have horrendous Nvidia driver problems but I hear they have improved -- IDK, I bailed on my cards and now just use the MOBO monitor outputs.

I'm about to hit end-of-life on my setup anyway because MidiOverLAN is now legacy and not supported in future. So the Grim Reaper is nigh -- the guy who says [scary voice] "Rip apart thy setup and redo EVERYTHING!!! [death rattle, creepy breathing etc.]"


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## Pablocrespo (Dec 9, 2019)

UFX II vs UFX +
I can´t get a straight answer if Thunderbolt in Windows would be beneficial (less cpu taxing than USB), Could thunderbolt allow lower stable latencies in large projects? or RME USB2 is so good that there is no difference in small I/O counts so Thunderbolt is not necessary?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 9, 2019)

The template I used to have was +1000 tracks and was fine with RME. I haven't opened it on my new computer but I have created some large orchestral sessions (mocking up Tchaikovsky) and I haven't had a single dropout except when I tried going lower than 128.


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## Pablocrespo (Dec 9, 2019)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The template I used to have was +1000 tracks and was fine with RME. I haven't opened it on my new computer but I have created some large orchestral sessions (mocking up Tchaikovsky) and I haven't had a single dropout except when I tried going lower than 128.


Was that on USB2?


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## David Chappell (Dec 9, 2019)

Dunshield said:


> How are and were you connecting the UFX+, through USB or Thunderbolt? It would also be helpful to know which exact port on the computer you are using, or maybe you're using a PCIe thunderbolt card? Am asking because this sounds like a compatibility issue with the chipset and the soundcard.
> 
> My RME Fireface 800 has been rock stable for the past 10 years. I run orchestral templates but less than 2000 tracks.


I was using USB3.0 - much of my troubleshooting did focus on that, but I couldn't figure it out as the 3.0 ports I was using were Intel, which the manual stated were fully compatible. In lieu of any help from RME, I just gave up. Had to get back to work eventually, I suppose!

I'm now using a thunderbolt PCI card, with some contraption named in the manual for connecting TB2 to 3. Aside from a couple small irritabilities (I need to start my PC twice before it works, and a small yelping sound on opening/ closing cubase), it appears to be working fine now.


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## Softmo06004 (Dec 9, 2019)

Metric Halo...The best Audio interfaces in the world


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## Symfoniq (Dec 9, 2019)

Yet another vote for RME. Solid as a rock here on Windows 10 (I use USB).


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## Andoran (Dec 9, 2019)

Rob Elliott said:


> Heck - a good idea. I'll hold onto my tube M610 UA (for certain vocals/ solo instruments) as needed. Be use the pres onboard in most cases.
> 
> the UFX II is probably in my 2020 future. No issues with USB 2.0? (surprised they just didn't go with USB 3.0 to 'future proof' it.)


RME developed a kernel level asio driver for usb 2 that is very fast and very stable, I haven't had any issues with it.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 9, 2019)

Wow, great responses! I read a TON of reviews and articles last night. Ended up ordering the RME Babyface Pro (at Adorama.com for $699, no tax or shipping). I want robust clean playback, that sounds like the ticket and it's PC and iOS compatible. If the $275 Apogee One work THAT well and sound THAT good on my Acer laptop, I'm confident the Babyface will work superbly on my tower. What did it for me was dual HP jacks and how everyone kept saying how good the drivers were in the reviews. And of course reliability and sound quality but you get that when you get up frpm the $99 interface category. I saw the rebate and free plugins with the Apollo Twin but the last thing I need is more engineering plugins. I want solid and reliable, tried and true, and RME is the road I took. 

But by all means keep the converation going, it's great to hear all the inout, and it may very well help someone else decide!


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## Manaberry (Dec 10, 2019)

TimCox said:


> This thread is making me salivate. Lord I need a new PC and interface, I've been working on a 2048 buffer for so long I don't know if I could play exactly on the beat anymore



I had to work at 4096 buffer sometimes because my PC is slow af. I know that feel but this time is almost done. 10980XE and Twin X are on the way.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 10, 2019)

Pablocrespo said:


> Was that on USB2?


Yes I was using a Fireface UC and now a Digiface USB.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 10, 2019)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The template I used to have was +1000 tracks and was fine with RME. I haven't opened it on my new computer but I have created some large orchestral sessions (mocking up Tchaikovsky) and I haven't had a single dropout except when I tried going lower than 128.


That's what I wanted to hear, lol.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 10, 2019)

hbjdk said:


> I think you will be happy with your choice.
> 
> The BF Pro headphone outputs are of good enough quality that I stopped using any external headphone amplifier (I have a Meier Audio Corda Classic and a Graham Slee Solo ULDE)
> 
> ...



Me too. Once I get things set up I'll report back with the results, compared to my old AI. Just having all spiffy parts doesn't mean anything I'm coming to realize, it's all about drivers. My PreSonus interface works great (for audio mixes) with a USB 3 cable on my new MSI X299 mobo, but it would NOT work on my previous ASUS X79. Had to use USB 2 cable. Reason: the USB 3 ports were running on Renesas drivers which is what ASUS decided to go with for USB 3 support on the board. The drivers at the time were terrible (I should be careful, I'm a software developer for a semiconductor company and Renesas is one of our customers!). Maybe things have improved but my MSI board is rock solid even in the USB 3.1 and USB-C department. SO, when I kept seeing how solid RME drivers are, I was sold.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 10, 2019)

TimCox said:


> This thread is making me salivate. Lord I need a new PC and interface, I've been working on a 2048 buffer for so long I don't know if I could play exactly on the beat anymore


If you are able, now is a GREAT time to build. Ram and SSD prices, being a commodity, are WAY down. And because AMD woke up and injected processors with way more than 4 cores/8 threads for a lot less money, intel had to respond so you can get 6 and 8 core processors for way less now. In May 2018 I paid $650 for 64GB ram, it's now 230 bucks. Newegg.com is loaded with end-of-year deals on power supplies, cases, etc, even Windows licenses. Buy Win 10 OEM, Home is probably $99 and Pro $139. Don't buy retail, its 300 bucks probably. OEM means you are the support for the machine, you can't call Microsoft for Windows support, but who cares? Ha, "I called Microsoft the other day and had them walk me through setting up encryption on my backups" said no one ever, lol!

If you are entertaining the thought, let me know, I'll send you a list of everything you'd need with options. BTW, PROS about building a rig: you know it inside and out, and your parts are warrantied from 3 years to life (ram is almost always lifetime warrantied). My EVGA power supply and graphics card have 10 year warranties for instance. Just a thought...


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## PaulieDC (Dec 10, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> Motu 1248...very adaptable with an onboard software mixer. Plus a mixer for touch control. No pops or crackles.


Keeping that one bookmarked for when I need to upgrade from the RME. I needed to cap this purchase at about 800 bucks, but one day I'll want a rackmountable unit with ethernet support and Word Clock capability. When I do MOTU will be on my radar. Thanks!


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## PaulieDC (Dec 10, 2019)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> When I changed from a presonus firepod to rme fireface it was a surprising big difference when recording audio tonewise. Much better I have to say. Probably because of different ad/da converters. Since then I never had issues with latency and pops and clicks.
> But there is also a thread about the topic where it is pointed out that it's not always the interface or low computer specs that cause a problem. Might be also the video or network card that causes an unexpected bottleneck if I remember it right. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the guy who checked it out or the thread but I remember that it helped me to make some good decisions. Might be worth to take a little search on the topic.


I HAVE been researching and you are absolutely correct. NVidia drivers can play havoc sometimes on audio environments. Aggravating because I also do a lot of photo and video work on the tower. First thing when my Babyface arrives, I'm going to swap it out with my old AI, install the drivers and see what happens, keeping buffer and all the rest the same.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 10, 2019)

I've been eyeing RME for a few years now, but hadn't seen it on the payment plan before. That was an insta-buy for me. Thanks! Glad I saw this.


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## TimCox (Dec 11, 2019)

PaulieDC said:


> If you are able, now is a GREAT time to build. Ram and SSD prices, being a commodity, are WAY down. And because AMD woke up and injected processors with way more than 4 cores/8 threads for a lot less money, intel had to respond so you can get 6 and 8 core processors for way less now. In May 2018 I paid $650 for 64GB ram, it's now 230 bucks. Newegg.com is loaded with end-of-year deals on power supplies, cases, etc, even Windows licenses. Buy Win 10 OEM, Home is probably $99 and Pro $139. Don't buy retail, its 300 bucks probably. OEM means you are the support for the machine, you can't call Microsoft for Windows support, but who cares? Ha, "I called Microsoft the other day and had them walk me through setting up encryption on my backups" said no one ever, lol!


My current PC is about a 10 year old build from Newegg! Small updates over time, I have 32gb of RAM now, running on all SSD (finally). I want to bump up to 64 with a new motherboard that supports 128. From there I _really, REALLY_ need to update my processor.


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## PaulieDC (Dec 11, 2019)

TimCox said:


> My current PC is about a 10 year old build from Newegg! Small updates over time, I have 32gb of RAM now, running on all SSD (finally). I want to bump up to 64 with a new motherboard that supports 128. From there I _really, REALLY_ need to update my processor.


The difference is night and day. Besides the processor, the buss speed on the motherboards and the DDR4 ram are screaming fast. Mobos today support an on-board NVMe M.2 SSD which is 5 times faster then regular SSDs. Get a 500GB for your C drive on a newer Mobo with PCI 3.0 and DDR4 ram and your rig will be smokin'.  You can use your existing SATA SSDs for your libraries, read speed on those are great for that.


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## PaulieDC (Mar 25, 2020)

Quick update: The RME Babyface Pro is so good, I forgot I have an Audio Interface. It all works, no crackles and the audio quality is superb. The latest model has upgraded SteadyClock features but is $200 more, although I imagine you can't get a separate unit to minimize jitters for 200 bucks, if it all works like they say. I'm not pro enough to notice anything, the now-older model is phenomenal at my level.


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