# Is there a particular mode behind cowboy western film music?



## Studio E (Jul 27, 2016)

Pretty much what the title says. The film I'm being asked to score is a period piece of 1883. Although it's not a western per se, I think that is the style I would like to bring to it. I am trying to develop a plan to make it have that sound, with only a select few instruments, primarily solo strings, maybe just straight-up violin. With the orchestration reduced to the bare minimum, finding what scales would work best for improv would hopefully go a long way toward providing my intended sound. Any help would be much appreciated.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 27, 2016)

Listen to Copeland's "Billy The Kid" over and over and over again.


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## BenG (Jul 27, 2016)

Well depending on the subject matter, there could be a few ways to get that "Western" sound. Music of that era was based in a lot of folk traditions which was reflective in its rhythms, harmony, melody, instrumentation and so on. Here are a few examples...

- *Harmony*: Pentatonic, Mixolydian
- *Rhythm*: Triplet or 6/8 feel
- *Melody*: Singable, Folk Tunes, Call and Response
- *Orchestration*:Solo Strings, Guitar, Clarinet, Light Percussion
- *Other*: Ornamentation (Grace Notes, Trills), Fiddle-Style, etc.

These are just a few tips but there are many many more. To get a better idea, just listen to some great composers. Copland, Grofe, Ives, and so on


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## Saxer (Jul 27, 2016)

A lot of Western music sounds like orchestrated Irish folk. It's mainly a fusion of white European immigrants native music. The use of orchestras in Hollywood films made it an American branding.


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## Leeward (Jul 27, 2016)

Copland Copland Copland


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## Studio E (Jul 27, 2016)

Thanks guys. This is exactly the type of info I was looking for. You wasted no time in responding as well. Great forum as usual


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## Sebastianmu (Jul 27, 2016)

Wasn't there that essay talked about here recently? Who was it... Frank Lehman? I can't remember.


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## Luke W (Jul 27, 2016)

bVII to V cadence is the important chord progression for the Western.


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## hawpri (Jul 27, 2016)

Sebastianmu said:


> Wasn't there that essay talked about here recently? Who was it... Frank Lehman? I can't remember.



http://vi-control.net/community/thr...the-structure-of-cinematic-expectation.54052/

http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.13.19.4/mto.13.19.4.lehman.html


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## NoamL (Jul 27, 2016)

"Western" to me implies doing very straightforward and traditional uses of IV and V. That's what makes it sound "old fashioned":



or even:


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## ed buller (Jul 27, 2016)

From Frank Lehman :
http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.13.19.4/mto.13.19.4.lehman.html#article-4

*IV. Cowboy Chromaticism*

*Example 9*. Subtonic Half-Cadence Paradigm





(click to enlarge)

I would suggest mixolydian as the most prevalent mode. Also liberal use of sus chords. 

A quick and useful trick is to steal the Pitch set ( Not really a set) from Appalachian Spring . Basically From the bottom up

e,g,c,d,g,b. 

Very americana. It's a CMajor first in with Gmaj 2nd Inv on top.

e


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 27, 2016)

Check out the Shane theme


Though it's not played overtly, you can hear the following, iconic 6/8 bass line underlying the piece:

1 - 5 6 - 5

This gives the relaxed feel of the slow-riding cowboy at the end of a hot day.

Now, imagine some riders racing around the bend, whooping and hollering and trying to get home first. Cut to Copeland's Hoe Down in a fast 4/4.

There are probably other iconic rhythms for desperate chase scenes, love scenes, and violent conflict. The above two are just a start.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 27, 2016)

Bruce Broughton's Silverado is a pretty terrific take on the traditional American Western film score. The cue when Mal's father is dying in the river is a real stunner and perhaps closer to Mahler than anything else. Very modern in any case for the genre.

The quintessential American western score, The Magnificent Seven is sort of equal parts Stravinsky and Copland influenced. Brilliantly personalized by the hugely talented Elmer Bernstein.


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## Baron Greuner (Jul 27, 2016)

There's no such thing as western cowboy music. It's completely different. Most of the late 50s or mid 60s TV western music, when the western really took off, is usually library music, with a bespoke theme tune at the beginning.
You could go from anything by Dimitri Tiomkin's High Noon, to any western by John Ford who used composers such as Cyril Mockeridge etc. to Bernsteins Mag 7, to even Hud, that Bernstein also did the music for. Rawhide, that I happen to be watching right now, is totally library music and could be easily used for just about any drama or late 50s sci-fi genre, especially when Herrmanns easily recognisable library cues are being used.
Moving through to 1964 when Ennio Moriconne rewrote the book on western genre scoring. This was carried forward to Peckinpah westerns and so on.

So just about any music within those frameworks above could apply, but the second you go down the Copland path, you might get construed as cliché because very few westerns have gone down that route.
Most westerns are actually parables and usually tackle all sorts of subjects that you find in a lot of non western dramas.


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## karelpsota (Jul 27, 2016)

I had to write a Spaghetti Western theme a few years back and I remember struggling with the chords.
Eventually, I stole the progression from this TV show one-time special.
Like other mentioned, bVII plays an important role. Dorian mode helps too.



This is also pretty cool for inspiration. Awesome modulation.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 27, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> There's no such thing as western cowboy music. It's completely different. Most of the late 50s or mid 60s TV western music, when the western really took off, is usually library music, with a bespoke theme tune at the beginning.
> You could go from anything by Dimitri Tiomkin's High Noon, to any western by John Ford who used composers such as Cyril Mockeridge etc. to Bernsteins Mag 7, to even Hud, that Bernstein also did the music for. Rawhide, that I happen to be watching right now, is totally library music and could be easily used for just about any drama or late 50s sci-fi genre, especially when Herrmanns easily recognisable library cues are being used.
> Moving through to 1964 when Ennio Moriconne rewrote the book on western genre scoring. This was carried forward to Peckinpah westerns and so on.
> 
> ...



When you say library music, you mean that all those great Western films were largely using cues they owned from scores that composers had done for other films? I did not know that.


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## Baron Greuner (Jul 27, 2016)

Library music only from TV westerns I think I said. Obviously films are usually one composer writing to the scenes, with something like Bruce Broughtons great score to Silverado, which is almost a sort of celebration of the western score style.

For example, Rawhide is all library music including cues from Fred Steiner, Leith Stevens, Jerry Goldsmith, Leo Katskin, Nathin Scott and Billy May to name but a few.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 27, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Library music only from TV westerns I think I said. Obviously films are usually one composer writing to the scenes, with something like Bruce Broughtons great score to Silverado, which is almost a sort of celebration of the western score style.
> 
> For example, Rawhide is all library music including cues from Fred Steiner, Leith Stevens, Jerry Goldsmith, Leo Katskin, Nathin Scott and Billy May to name but a few.



Sure with TV shows, but feature films like High Noon?


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## Studio E (Jul 27, 2016)

You guys are really awesome! So much good stuff to read, listen, and learn here. Thank you so much. I think I have plenty to go on from here


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## Baron Greuner (Jul 27, 2016)

Not sure what you mean Jay. These writers wrote library music as well as wring direct to film. Just as today, I assume they wrote an album of material that could be construed as 'in the style of' or 'suitable for' the western genre. But when you actually break it down, it could easily be used in The Outer Limits.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 27, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> Not sure what you mean Jay. These writers wrote library music as well as wring direct to film. Just as today, I assume they wrote an album of material that could be construed as 'in the style of' or 'suitable for' the western genre. But when you actually break it down, it could easily be used in The Outer Limits.



Once again, I don't doubt that, but my guess is, and I could well be wrong, that in feature films in the era of Classic Westerns, it was rare for there to be more than 1 or 2 cues in the film that were not specifically written for the film. But if I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected about that.


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## Baron Greuner (Jul 27, 2016)

American TV westerns were usually library because of the time and money constraints, ergo, easier to drop library cues in I guess. Whereas a full feature like High Noon would use all bespoke cues, in this case by Dimitri Tiomkin.

When you think about it, not bad to have Herrmann et al write your library music when you think about it.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 27, 2016)

Baron Greuner said:


> American TV westerns were usually library because of the time and money constraints, ergo, easier to drop library cues in I guess. Whereas a full feature like High Noon would use all bespoke cues, in this case by Dimitri Tiomkin.
> 
> When you think about it, not bad to have Herrmann et al write your library music when you think about it.




Ok, that makes sense to me, thanks for clarifying.


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## ed buller (Jul 27, 2016)

i think the original post is about what I'd call Classic westerns. The magnificent seven being a good example. Whilst there is a wide range of music used in all these sorts of films I think you'd be hard pressed to deny for a while there was a style adopted by many. Which , I think has a lot to do with Copland.

Perhaps that is why Morricone's films sound so marvelous. Because he broke the mold.

But Herrmann's Library music is wonderful. And not at all copland.

http://www.screenarchives.com/title...RD-HERRMANN-THE-CBS-YEARS-VOL-1-THE-WESTERNS/

e


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## Dr.Quest (Jul 27, 2016)

The music for the HBO series Deadwood was very good at evoking that western feel while still being left of center. Wonderful music. The folk music roots, if you want to be honest to the material, would be a key element. Fiddle is high on the list of instruments for front and center. Listen to the Deadwood theme.


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## Jurek (Jul 27, 2016)




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## Baron Greuner (Jul 28, 2016)

Also other guys to consider for westerns music would be Ry Cooder and John Barry


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## MitchellFields (Jul 28, 2016)

Dr.Quest said:


> The music for the HBO series Deadwood was very good at evoking that western feel while still being left of center. Wonderful music. The folk music roots, if you want to be honest to the material, would be a key element. Fiddle is high on the list of instruments for front and center. Listen to the Deadwood theme.




I really like that track.


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## Studio E (Jul 28, 2016)

ed buller said:


> i think the original post is about what I'd call Classic westerns. The magnificent seven being a good example. Whilst there is a wide range of music used in all these sorts of films I think you'd be hard pressed to deny for a while there was a style adopted by many. Which , I think has a lot to do with Copland.
> 
> Perhaps that is why Morricone's films sound so marvelous. Because he broke the mold.
> 
> ...


So yeah, my idea is that I want to understand what works in order to give that feel to the music, but then make it my own as well. I don't know how "western" my soundtrack will turn out, but being able to at least give a nod to the genre would be nice in order to set the mood. I'm really liking what I hear from the Open Range soundtrack by Michael Kamen as well. Some of it reminds me of Thomas Newman style string writing, which is an al time goal of mine anyway. 

You guys are terrific for all the pointers.


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## SergeD (Jul 28, 2016)

Eric,
If you listen carefully to the Dvorak Symphony No. 9 you will find some parts that contains the nucleus of classic westerns scores.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 28, 2016)

Jerry Fielding.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm a fan of film noir. When we think of it, we think about tenor sax melodies. The reality is that most of the underscore is 20th century classical. Even the opening theme music was more often orchestral than jazz. The exception was source music. If there was a radio or record player or a singer on stage, we would almost always hear jazz.

A modern western can be handled in the same way. Make the opening theme meet the emotional mood of the piece. Hint at western themes or sounds lightly, if at all. For the underscore, focus purely on the emotion and reject the temptation to go western. If you want a truly western sound, put a live harmonica, banjo, violin, guitar or upright piano in the scene and write (or steal!) western source music. Hey, real 19th century music is no longer under copyright!

A bit of trivia: when we think of westerns, we think of cowboy hats. The reality is that bowlers were the more popular hat back in the day. They were superior at staying on the head when riding under brush.


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## Baron Greuner (Jul 28, 2016)

Open Range is a really good western and a throw back to westerns of yore in some ways.

A really interesting western that is actually almost film noir that everyone should be made to watch by law, is Johnny Guitar. Great film and the very thematic score is by Victor Young, who did a ton of scores.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 28, 2016)

The classic Western Noir is 1955's Bad Day at Black Rock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Day_at_Black_Rock

The film is quite good. The conflict is apparent immediately, but the source of the conflict is unexpected and isn't revealed until the 3rd act. Well worth your time if you like older films.

Andre Previn scored it. The opening scene is of a train barreling down the tracks. The theme music isn't Western or Noir; it's about the impending, intense conflict. Interestingly, it sounds kind of like something that Keith Emerson might have written for ELP twenty years later.

I wouldn't go with this music today, but it shows that themes for Western films don't need to sound western. They can be more contemporary, if they reflect the feeling of the story.


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## Dave Connor (Jul 28, 2016)

Studio E said:


> Pretty much what the title says. The film I'm being asked to score is a period piece of 1883. Although it's not a western per se, I think that is the style I would like to bring to it. I am trying to develop a plan to make it have that sound, with only a select few instruments, primarily solo strings, maybe just straight-up violin. With the orchestration reduced to the bare minimum, finding what scales would work best for improv would hopefully go a long way toward providing my intended sound. Any help would be much appreciated.


A small ensemble western score that is absolutely top-drawer is Jeremiah Johnson by John Rubinstein. Copland influenced to be sure but very original in material, instrument combinations, harmonic twists and turns and so on. If I was going to use a small ensemble I would be listening to that. 

I think people may forget that Copland's original Appalachian Spring was originally for 13 instruments (or close to that.) There are great recordings of that with Copland conducting. It's surprisingly big sounding but ultra transparent while also very nimble and energized. Once again, pure Americana which has been borrowed by others to no end.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 28, 2016)

Then again, you might finish the whole film exquisitely and at the last minute, the producer will rip it all out and replace it with country pop songs. 

"Elvira. Elvira. My heart's on fire. Elvira."

...and release a soundtrack album.


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## Baron Greuner (Jul 29, 2016)

Elmer Bernstein once said something like 'it's not the theme that's difficult, it's what is happening underneath that really counts'.





Westerns come in all sorts off styles.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 29, 2016)

The point is that there is no mode for westerns.

This isn't your typical John Williams score:


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## Studio E (Jul 29, 2016)

JonFairhurst said:


> Then again, you might finish the whole film exquisitely and at the last minute, the producer will rip it all out and replace it with country pop songs.
> 
> "Elvira. Elvira. My heart's on fire. Elvira."
> 
> ...and release a soundtrack album.


Maybe I should just prepare by offering it up. I once sent a director a totally serious score cue that suddenly shifted to a recording of Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone", just to be funny.


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