# Music for film and media - to college or to not?



## ein fisch (Jun 1, 2018)

Please share your experiences. If not - is there another place you could suggest to get to know musical friends? Because just for the sake of getting connections - well - its a little expensive no?

Peace
Fisch


----------



## Desire Inspires (Jun 1, 2018)

If you are worried about the cost or debt, then no. Hell no.


----------



## Daniel (Jun 1, 2018)

College is better. But having a lot experiences & practice are a good teacher. 
Before preparing that things, I am suggesting you: 
1. Be a master on your DAW & your sample libraries.
2. Update information of the new sample libraries in this forum.
3. Define your music character & it is better you can publish your music to your friends/media. It is better with the video.
4. Join & participate to a local/global music competition (arranging/composing/for film/jingle or not)
5. Be a good composer & people will know yourself. 
6. Get prepare for someone will call you for a film project. (They could be your friends/Film Director/Producer).


----------



## hawpri (Jun 1, 2018)

Do you need a college degree out of it or specifically only the connections? Would it be worth the (reduced) expense and time to take or even audit a class or two?


----------



## The Darris (Jun 1, 2018)

College isn't for everyone. I've met a lot of composers who wish they hadn't gone to college for music and I've met a lot who wish they had or, have been to college and were glad they went. I graduated back in 2016 and I'm glad I went to be honest. 

I think, in the end, whether or not you go to college should really be based on what college you go to. There are a lot and they all offer something different. I don't come from a wealthy background and I'm also one who didn't want to take out an extraordinary amount of loans that I would be paying off for the rest of my life, especially while pursuing a career path where it's not based on my level of education, but rather my chops and my ability to communicate and listen. So, I turned towards what my GI Bill covered which meant programs like USC, UCLA, and Berkley were out of the question for me. So, I decided to look at the schools around my area and found one where the composition instructors didn't "tell me how to write" but rather helped me find my own voice. They listened to my music objectively and offered influences and ideas to help me development my sound. 

In short, if I were to look at going back to college, I'd want to make sure I wouldn't be getting into a program where its a strict curriculum based around what they want to write but more geared towards focusing on you as an artist. They are hard to find, that's for sure but I found it and it worked for me. 

Best,

Chris


----------



## gsilbers (Jun 1, 2018)

some places like Berklee offer a BA (bachelor of arts) which is a college degree that all companies require to get placed on a job. companies you say? well yes... if you think music will be a money making career and you are sure you will be able to afford a life doing that and follow your passion then cool. but music in general doesn't pay that much (except for the 1% doing big movies etc). it pays somewhat and some people do make a decent living. . but more and more people are diving into music and more and more people are doing it for free or low fee. and music libraries are also lowering more and more the rates while more kids are getting better and better. and streaming royalties doesn't seem to be getting any better. So having a BA or any college degree will at least future proof your life just in case. so think about it in the long run. as for the music education on itself. I think it helps being around people who also want to do the same as you and are trying o reach that goal. you think you know music until you get to be with kids who know way too much. have been taking classes since they are kids. and so on. and of course, the connections. I think those are the most important next to getting the university to give you job placements after graduating. I think its full sail.. (not sure) they have the last semester be a internship so that way kids get hired if they are a good fit and if they are not there are no strings attached. all while learning on the job. I think remote control has something like this with Berklee. 
with all the youtube videos it seems that formal education is not needed and you can learn everything online nowadays. but I think you still need time and space to be able to get out of your element, compose, learn and interact with other musicians and directors/producers. cuz practice takes time and college buys you that chance. in Europe might be even better.


----------



## JJP (Jun 1, 2018)

If you are going to college for music, I would recommend crossing off your list any school that does not require passing an audition for acceptance.

Schools that screen applicants through an audition will have a higher caliber of teachers and your fellow students will be better musicians. Those elements will have a huge impact on the quality of education you receive.


----------



## mc_deli (Jun 1, 2018)

Talk to current and ex-students.

I went to a degree course that required auditions/tests. Turned out the school was really for session players not producers/composers. I only talked to one student beforehand. Horrible mistake on my part as I gave up a great job and it turned out the school/course was not what was promised and a bad fit for me.


----------



## JeffvR (Jun 1, 2018)

I graduated in 2010. If I had to do it again I would:
- Spend 4 years to network. Start with student films and grow from there. This is the most important thing. Connect with directors you like, the musical choices they make you like. Don't beg to do their next film, just pick their brain and tell them you're a composer. Hang out with them and have a coffee or beer. It's important they know you exist. If they like you, you might land a job (skills are almost irrelevant)

- Talking about skills. There's so much to learn from youtube nowadays. Get some masterclasses from Mike Verta, watch the Rick Beato stuff. Read books, transcribe music you like. Don't forget to become a better mixer/producer as well

- Keep yourself busy with exercises. Compose something every day. If you don't have stuff to work on do scenes from films you like.

- Teach others (if you're good enough). It's a great way of learning and you'll earn some €.

- Become a wizzard in making samples sound good and get to know your DAW. Get to know Pro Tools a bit so you can deliver stems for a professional film or tv series.

- Connect with other composers. You might end up working for them. Assisting them or ghost writing to gain experience.


----------



## jcrosby (Jun 1, 2018)

Composing's is how I earn a living but I went to an art school.... My school background had no impact on my ability to make connections and my courses had little curriculum based around composition. The few classes available were abstract sound-art stuff that doesn't resemble anything I do now... Going to art school made me appreciate how important a DIY approach is, but that's about it. 

Even if you make contacts in a program the question is... What are you going to do with them? No course or school will teach you how to know whether it's opportunity's or a bad gig knocking... And you'll probably take a few lumps before you figure that one out.

School's a great life experience, but when it comes to the arts, unless you want to teach, a degree doesn't really mean much... Basically if you think your musical skills are already good enough to get some work I'd at least think about whether going to school is going to get you any further than DIY networking...


----------



## GtrString (Jun 2, 2018)

Depends a lot upon who you are as a person.

- do you already have (paid) work in/with music
- are you good at taking things over the top when learning something by yourself (good at self-learning)
- do you already know people that have success in music (that can give you work?)

If you can answer yes to all 3, you may not benefit much from college (right now)

A college education has two purposes. 1) to enable students to learn what known and future unknown situations may require and 2) a formal sorting mechanism, where you can get a job with a degree and not without one (especially teaching gigs, but some others also apply).

Career starts day one at college, where you still want to learn from youtube, build relationships, find work ect. You are just in a position where you can take it all over the top with all the ressources at college. Few college students realize this, though, they lean back and think careers start after college and waste too much time not pushing forward while they really can.

So, take an honest hard look at yourself and consider if you are outgoing and really believe that you can push things forward from where you are now. If not, go to college and get busy.


----------



## JJP (Jun 2, 2018)

GtrString said:


> - do you already have (paid) work in/with music
> - are you good at taking things over the top when learning something by yourself (good at self-learning)
> - do you already know people that have success in music (that can give you work?)
> 
> ...



This analysis is commonly applied from a trade school perspective. Most good college music programs are not built around this mentality. Granted, the extreme rise in cost for college has required us to re-evaluate the cost vs benefit. Yet, simply equating a degree with the ability to get a job in narrow field is myopic.

This is going to be long, but since you are considering dropping tens of thousands of dollars on college, I'll share my views and experience.

When I went to college I only knew that I wanted to be a musician. I was not sure exactly how that would all play out. Most people are not. By the end of my second year I knew that a career as an orchestral percussionist did not appeal to me. By the end of my third year I knew that my love was jazz; so much so that I transferred to another school to finish my degree and focus on jazz. College exposed me to a part of jazz I didn't understand before. I'm not a professional jazz musician today, but I use what I learned in my jazz education almost every day in my work.

What I did know when I entered college was that I needed to work and practice hard and soak up every bit of knowledge and experience that I could. It was also drilled into me that I needed to build a rock-solid musical foundation in theory, ear training, performance skills, music history, and the arts in general. Plus I needed to have a good, basic general education outside of music to be able to be an intelligent person and musician who could contribute to the artistic culture which I was going to enter. I was also told by my private teacher that I would need to spend a minimum 3 hours a day in the practice room just to be able to keep up with what was expected of me as a performance major.

Most of the musical work I am doing now I did not know were potential jobs before I entered college. Some of the work I've done in video games did not exist when I entered college. There is no way my college education could have specifically prepared me for the jobs that were not yet invented.

What my college education did:
1. Give a very solid musical foundation (theory, history, styles/genres) that has applied to every musical career opportunity I have found.
2. Teach me how to practice my instrument and become a reasonably accomplished performer. This skill has been invaluable as a copyist, orchestrator, and composer. I understand the musicians who play music and how to write for them.
3. Teach me how to learn, analyze, think critically, and communicate about both music and non-musical phenomena. I can not understate the importance of these skills. The ability to boil a concept down to its core elements, understand those, be able to communicate them, and then build on those elements has helped me learn new genres of music, communicate with both employers and musicians, become involved as an activist advocating for composers and musicians in legal settings, and negotiate business deals.
4. Expose me to new ideas (musical and otherwise) that opened new avenues of creativity and career options. It also hinted at where the future may lie so that I could be prepared to adapt to the changes that may come.

My college education did not:
1. Teach me how to use a DAW, sample library, or synth. I was exposed to these things. I was required to take or test out of a one-semester music technology course. I also performed in an experimental digital ensemble where we explored new tech and ways of performing with it. The emphasis was on being technically literate so that I could later learn what I needed depending on how the technology impacted my career. Spending a semester teaching me how to use DP or Logic was seen as a waste of time. Time was better spent nailing down basic musical and tech skills that would apply no matter what technology I was using.
2. Teach me about surviving in the musical world by looking for work, balancing multiple sources of income, doing taxes, understanding debt. I think it would have been valuable to have a semester on this. Fortunately I came from a family with a small business and I was taught much of this outside of school.
3. Teach me about the mechanics of scoring to film or games. There was a film scoring major, but at that time it was one of just a few in the country. I was able to learn everything I needed to know about film scoring after I left college. Film sync, timings, scoring techniques, are the easy part. Learning how to write and perform good music is much more difficult.

To be fair, I went to a school in another state in the USA that I never would have been able to afford if it were not for the significant scholarship that I received. That scholarship was based on the quality of my application and most importantly, my audition. I found an excellent teacher and practiced very hard for months for my audition.

I also auditioned at 3 different schools and was accepted by two, including my first-choice school. I also told that school once I was accepted that they were my first choice but I could not attend without a scholarship. Fortunately, they saw fit to grant me a scholarship which offset enough of the tuition for my family to afford sending me there.

The economics of attending college are very important, critically so given the cost today in the USA. The current extreme cost is a travesty, but that's also another discussion. However when making the judgement about cost, it's important to understand what a well-rounded college or university education really does. It's quite different from simply training you for a specific, narrow career path or trade.

Schools that advertise that they cut out all the "unnecessary" courses so that you can quickly get on with your musical career are actually cutting corners and not preparing most students for what lies ahead. I've dealt with several people who attended these kinds of schools. The graduates are usually inferior in both their musical skills and their overall education. It's sometimes frustrating to see the gaps in in basic musical understanding.

If after weighing the options,you want to go to college to study music, do that. Don't think of it a direct ticket to a specific job. It can be in some circumstances, but generally nobody cares where you went to school. They care what you know, what skills you have, and often whether you can adapt and learn.

I know that when looking for people, we seek people who are musically literate and intelligent on top of having the necessary technical skills. People with the latter legion. The former group is far more valuable to those with whom I work.


----------



## GtrString (Jun 2, 2018)

Well, modern education should connect the dots between what your college education did and what it did not, imho. Sadly, not many do, so it will be up to the student to connect the practical and the theoretical world. I know many who struggle with this after studies, and many give up the critical skills they were taught much too fast. If colleges were more balanced and not so full of themselves, even they might make a difference to other than the usual upper middle class segment..


----------



## ein fisch (Jun 2, 2018)

Wow. Lot of valuable posts here. Thank you all for sharing your opinions. Exactly what i needed.

I will come back to this thread a little later.

But what i read here and really need to disagree: yes, there are incredible musicans out there. Age 10, 11, 12 whatever. Getting hardcore schooled by superior teachers already at age of 3 due to rich parents etc.

Now im sure there are some of them who really enjoy the music but, how is that a life?

Im playing piano since im a kid, started getting into music programs at around 13 and im 19 now. But i think what i have in advantage, atleast on some of them is: i love music, pretty everything about it, i never got forced to do anything in that direction, and since i wasnt doing music 24/7 as a kid i also had time for sports, playing at a theatre etc.

Please correct me if im wrong but, in my opinion its a bad thing to hardcore school a kid in music. He wont do it with his heart. Music - to me - is way more than business. It can be pure emotions sometimes.

And if i got schooled already as a kid, aiming a career as a musican, im not sure if i would see it as a pure business at some point or will be able to do it my whole life with full passion.

Am i total wrong?

Fisch


----------



## JJP (Jun 2, 2018)

Many of the professional musicians I know started very young and still love what they do and are very passionate about it. I have a friend who was the youngest winner of the Tchaikovsky Violin Competition. Today this musician is concertmaster for a regional orchestra, sought-after studio musician, and also plays in an internationally renowned string quartet. This musician is also very passionate about premiereing new works. This person is married, has a child, a nice home, and even built a small art studio in their backyard so the whole family can practice their love of painting.

The thing to remember is that if you want to make a living, you will probably still have to do some things you don't like. We've all played gigs that were a drag, or worked for clients who somehow took the joy out of the work. You can be passionate about your work and still have occasional days when you hate your job. That's just life and part of pursuing a creative career. Life is full of give and take. 

Also don't forget that your experience is limited at this point. You are at the beginning of your journey and haven't seen what music is like as a professional, so be careful about making assumptions about your advantages. Having passion alone will not overcome a lack of skill in music. (Oh the stories I could tell about that!)


----------



## ein fisch (Jun 2, 2018)

JJP said:


> Many of the professional musicians I know started very young and still love what they do and are very passionate about it. I have a friend who was the youngest winner of the Tchaikovsky Violin Competition. Today this musician is concertmaster for a regional orchestra, sought-after studio musician, and also plays in an internationally renowned string quartet. This musician is also very passionate about premiereing new works. This person is married, has a child, a nice home, and even built a small art studio in their backyard so the whole family can practice their love of painting.
> 
> The thing to remember is that if you want to make a living, you will probably still have to do some things you don't like. We've all played gigs that were a drag, or worked for clients who somehow took the joy out of the work. You can be passionate about your work and still have occasional days when you hate your job. That's just life and part of pursuing a creative career. Life is full of give and take.
> 
> Also don't forget that your experience is limited at this point. You are at the beginning of your journey and haven't seen what music is like as a professional, so be careful about making assumptions about your advantages. Having passion alone will not overcome a lack of skill in music. (Oh the stories I could tell about that!)



Thank you JJP. Interesting to hear that from a guy who really knows some of them. I only know 2 people that started real young. And they were to me like social wracks. But then, seems like not everyone is like that.

Of course its not just passion. I bought thinkspaces orchestration course, have a very gifted teacher in music theory and take singing lessons weekly. I get the money from a job in a club on the weekends as a barguy.

Dont get me wrong. Passionate about music for me of course means that theres also a big learning curve. In fact there are singers or "musicans" out there who do it with full passion but cant even hit the right note. I am trying to improve on a daily basis with a proper and healthy learning-plan just for music.

Im turning 20 in a month. Do you think its to late for me now getting a composer? If so, can you tell me if there are similar jobs where i have better chances? Like mixing engineer?
Im honestly a bit confused about music business. But i see in this forum alot of guys are having jobs and im starting to wonder what im doing wrong. Is it cause music scene in switzerland is dead?

Thanks,
Fisch


----------



## JJP (Jun 2, 2018)

When I was 20, I was still in college, so I wasn't making a living in music at that point. It took me a few years after college to finally make all my income from music. Even then, there were some tough years for my wife and me.

Don't be swayed by impressions you get from the internet. There are far more people who want to work in this business than there are jobs. Many people only make part of their income from music. Most do multiple jobs in music to carve out a living.

I transcribe music, work as a copyist and librarian, orchestrate and arrange, and contract recording sessions (hire musicians and handle the paperwork). My wife and I have found our way to make a living is to help composers get their music orchestrated, performed and recorded. Basically we handle everything once it leaves the composer's desk.


----------



## GtrString (Jun 3, 2018)

College is about meta-skills. This means the skills it takes to be skilled, and as such apply to any field of work. Thus a college degree qualify for many other things than music in the end. It is the general educational level that counts. After that you can change fields with shorter field specific courses ect. There is no way around lifelong learning, college or not. But with college you have a much better foundation.

20years old is nothing. Get busy living or at least die trying.


----------



## Piano Pete (Jun 10, 2018)

Everyone has put some fantastic information here!

The only main point that I could even to hope to emphasize: *IT IS WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT!*

Find yourself a place with professors you can learn from and soak up everything from them, the school, the surrounding city, and online. The professors are the most important, I feel. Email people and see if you can get a private lesson or two to get a feel for where you are and how they can assist you in your endeavors. Always have an open mind, no matter whom you talk to. If you can get one pearl of wisdom from anyone, it was time well spent.

If you are going to go into debt, every school seems to be cutting back on the amount of full scholarship aid these days (GOGO LOANS), make sure that you are making the most of it. If you are going to say that x-amount of debt is an investment--which it is--make it an investment that will pay dividends later in life. 

Regarding schools, it depends on where you are, where you are comfortable being, and what you would want to major in. If you are looking for schools that have professors to potentially help regarding networking, you need to pick an institution that is near business you would want to be in. That said, the music world is _deceptively small, _and you would be surprised who you can meet in unsuspecting places!


----------

