# What is wrong with all the new strings libraries?



## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

I don't want to rant, but with recent dissapointments, and more then 1500€ wasted. I feel like I need to say something.

I purchased 3-4 libraries recently and mostly regretted buying them. Because they will not be usefull to me at all.

- Some have Staccato, but no Spiccato
- Some have Spiccato, but no Staccato
- Some have legato, but only bowed, nor fingered nor portamento, nor glisses, nor runs.

I feel like I am stuck in a loop. Buying the same thing over and over, but expecting some kind of salvation?
Most new releases are a step behind old releases. Not covering anything new or exciting.
My most used Libraries are still: Cinematic Studio Strings and Spitfire Chamber Strings.

Why are string libraries still sampled in that way?
I feel like developers should have gotten *enough feedback* by now to do otherwise.
It does not make sense to me. Just give me all those articulations in one package.

PRICE DOES NOT MATTER TO ME AT ALL.
Just make your releases proper. If you can not give me all in one package, OFFER ME SOME KIND OF REASONABLE TIMETABLE WHEN IT WILL BE AVAILABLE. That does not include saying: We are working on it, ore maybe we could release something sometime in XXX, if we feel like doing it.
I want proper, realistic release dates.

And while talking about usable,
3-4 Short articulations are more usefull to me then only Staccato and Spiccato. Please give me moooooooooooore. Most film music is like a slow detache da-di-da-di-da-di. Why is this still not sampled?????
And please include 3 RR on your Marcato samples.
A patch without RR samples, for me, automatically wanders into my trashcan.

Please, I beg of you... I just want to do something that maybe sounds like a realistic live recording.
I don't want to sound like another mockup. I feel like we should have been past that stage by now?

In other words... I had a bit to much to drink again. Maybe I have a problem, I don't know.
But you know. I AM burned out. And I AM feeling let down. It just weights on me today.

I want to support developers, I want to spend my hard earned money. But... like, could you at least try to make it worthwhile?


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## germancomponist (Nov 12, 2020)

Luckily, in the past, when Kontakt libraries were not locked, you was able to edit your string libraries by using the great tools what came/come with Kontakt Sampler. Nowadays you can't, because they are all locked. ...
For example: In the past you could make 11 absolutely authentic sounding RR samples from only 5, what was actually available.


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

germancomponist said:


> Luckily, in the past, when Kontakt libraries were not locked, you was able to edit your string libraries by using the great tools what came/come with Kontakt Sampler. Nowadays you can't, because they are all locked. ...


I am a fellow kontakt wizzard. I can make anything shine, if I can edit the backend!


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## LamaRose (Nov 12, 2020)

Like I say, it's like buying a car sans the test drive. Developers are still living in a competitive safe-space.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 12, 2020)

But don’t you watch walkthroughs and stuff before buying a library? It sounds like it comes as a surprise to you that library X is missing articulation Y.


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## germancomponist (Nov 12, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> But don’t you watch walkthroughs and stuff before buying a library? It sounds like it comes as a surprise to you that library X is missing articulation Y.



I think for a lot of people it's a matter of trust. You have a library from xy and you are enthusiastic. Then this company xy publishes a new library and you blindly trust. And then .......


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> But don’t you watch walkthroughs and stuff before buying a library? It sounds like it comes as a surprise to you that library X is missing articulation Y.


... I never said I am sane. I just said I bought them. Trust is another matter. I feel with VI's trust is never rewarded. Unless it is the Cinematic Studio Series.


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## jtnyc (Nov 12, 2020)

Disappointment is always a possibility when buying a sample library, but if there is no staccato in the articulation list on the product page, there isn't going to be one once you install it.


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## Beans (Nov 12, 2020)

What is your opinion of EastWest Hollywood Strings?


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

Beans said:


> What is your opinion of EastWest Hollywood Strings?


I only have Gold, I think. But it still sounds fine to me, love the con sordino option..


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## germancomponist (Nov 12, 2020)

Beans said:


> What is your opinion of EastWest Hollywood Strings?


One of the best libraries on the market, but you need enough time to learn it ...


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

jtnyc said:


> Disappointment is always a possibility when buying a sample library, but if there is no staccato in the articulation list on the product page, there isn't going to be one once you install it.


Maybe It is just me. But as a sample library addict, you will feel dissapointed if it is missing. No matter if you purchase it or not. You will just go ... why? I could have like that?


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## peladio (Nov 12, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> I don't want to rant, but with recent dissapointments, and more then 1500€ wasted. I feel like I need to say something.
> 
> I purchased 3-4 libraries recently and mostly regretted buying them. Because they will not be usefull to me at all.
> 
> ...



I feel your pain..but didn't you read the patch list for each and watch at least one walkthrough?

Also, libraries are like films..newer isn't always better


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

peladio said:


> but didn't you read the patch list for each and watch at least one walkthrough?


I always do. But never learn...


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 12, 2020)

So you recently "wasted" 1500€ in string libraries. Are sample library developers the only ones to blame for your disappointment?
Sorry to be that guy but this is an absolute mystery to me!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 12, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> I always do. But never learn...


I’ll bet there’s a lot of useful stuff in the libraries you bought though, right? Even though they are missing some things which you were expecting of a modern string library. So the money is not wasted, is it?


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## paularthur (Nov 12, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> I only have Gold, I think. But it still sounds fine to me, love the con sordino option..



I'm mainly using using CSS as well (Adventure Strings as an extra hand on shorts) but I'm thinking of going back and getting EWHO it's hard to deal with in comparison but I think it's still the most complete.


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

whitewasteland said:


> So you recently "wasted" 1500€ in string libraries. Are sample library developers the only one to blame for your disappointment?


No, but you know. I am a 30 something with money to burn. I just want more? Maybe it is fatigue.
I just feel like, developers should strive for more then just the bare bones. There are people who pay more. It just needs to be done?

And truth be told. Sampling 4 types of shorts is not really complicated. It just means about 1-2 h more studio time. When I pay upwards of 3-400€ for something, I think that can not be to unreasonable to expect?


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## Crowe (Nov 12, 2020)

Speaking as an addict, I suggest not being an addict.


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## lettucehat (Nov 12, 2020)

While I haven't spent the money on new, full libraries that you have, I have also noticed there are a lot of developers putting libraries out there that really don't add much to what's already on the market. Or what's been on the market for years. It's almost like they're putting them out just to have them out, as a matter of course. "Oh we have one of these too now, can't really say it's better than CSS or the flagship Spitfires or Berlin or even 10+ year old Hollywood Strings, but idk, enjoy"

Maybe developers are finding that it just isn't worth the investment like it used to be. Hence a move towards everybody having some kind of strings product but nobody creating a new gold standard in a while. More focus on smaller, broader projects that appeal to hobbyists, etc. Nothing wrong with that either.


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## Nate Johnson (Nov 12, 2020)

There are a 1001 opportunities to see and hear what any given library consists of between developer and user videos and endless threads here.

Nothing in this universe demands that you continue to buy new libraries - especially if you’ve already got stuff you like....

Developers have figured out that selling a ‘phase one’ library with promises of expansion still makes money, and puts you on the hook for more. Clearly the complexities of making massive, bleeding edge sample libraries still require massive amounts of time.

Always buy a library for what it IS, not what it might become.


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## Daniel James (Nov 12, 2020)

Complacency.

If people keep buying shit, what incentive do they have to improve.

-DJ

Also active hostility towards constructive criticism, regardless of how warranted.


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## lettucehat (Nov 12, 2020)

Nate Johnson said:


> Always buy a library for what it IS, not what it might become.



Can't argue with this, although the fact that developers do exist who have a track record of adding value to their products years later should be noted. I don't like the AR approach at all though.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 12, 2020)

lettucehat said:


> Can't argue with this, although the fact that developers do exist who have a track record of adding value to their products years later should be noted. I don't like the AR approach at all though.


What does AR approach mean? What’s that? I don’t understand.


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## gsilbers (Nov 12, 2020)

oh this thread will be long 


Coming from an era of sonic implants and giga studio and 32 bit computer, having seen setups like trevor morris with about 32 PCs in one room to be able to play these samples back and now almost all tv scores being done mostly ITB with sample libraries imma gonna say maybe expectations are not aligned with whats possible?

The work needed to do these libraries is ashtonishing. Record a whole orchestras and these amazing studios and then having to script legatos, round robins, effects, mic positions etc etc.
its quite the feat. coming from those bygone era is amazing this new technology and a lot of people take it for granted.

But anyways, just because you might find it useful. Have you tried hollywood strings diamond ? I was complaining because east west has a LOT of articulations to the point of being bothering. maybe thats something youd like? the sound is amazing as well. Im sure there are a few caveats and issues but should be workable.

There is alike a new string library every month. I think nashville scoring strings just came out? Abbey road also. And spitfire even though they have cool prodcuts, its extremely hard to know what they have. its like they hide them but they do have a few libraries that seemed more into a ton of articulations that i didnt see at first. like the contemporary ones and others. maybe dig through their site to find somehting you like.

And also, i think orchestral tools does have the berlin series that seems more to your liking?


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## peladio (Nov 12, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> I always do. But never learn...



Well in addition to your most used libraries I also use Hollywood Strings the most and I'm not missing anything when it comes to basic articulations..

I'd consider only getting specific libraries that bring something new like Aaron Venture, Performance samples, Ben Osterhouse or newer Synchron VSL for extended and different techniques and programming since you are very well covered on the basics side..


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## lettucehat (Nov 12, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> What does AR approach mean? What’s that? I don’t understand.



Creating an incomplete product with an unclear and vague roadmap as to what will be added in the (quite distant) future.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 12, 2020)

lettucehat said:


> Creating an incomplete product with an unclear and vague roadmap as to what will be added in the (quite distant) future.


Ok, but AR, what does it stand for? Sorry for being slow


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## germancomponist (Nov 12, 2020)

whitewasteland said:


> So you recently "wasted" 1500€ in string libraries. Are sample library developers the only ones to blame for your disappointment?
> Sorry to be that guy but this is an absolute mystery to me!


I do not think he wants to blame them. I hear him saying that he wants a library, available to buy, what makes all his dreams about a library comes true. A nice idea if you ask me.


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## ansthenia (Nov 12, 2020)

To be fair it kinda sounds more like a you problem, you can't blame sample library developers for your own addiction. They haven't wasted your money, you have, they made it clear what you would be buying.

That said, I still agree that it seems to be a trend that a new string library comes out that is amazing but, for some reason or another, is omitting something that stops the library from really being complete, and it's getting rather irritating. It's like they just almost get everything right, it's so close to being a perfect library, but then they think "let's not have staccato just to be a pain in the ass and create a big hole in the library" or something.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 12, 2020)

think of them as one big library filling in the gaps of each other.

give up on trying to make them sound like they were recorded in the same room and blend them together musically (if that makes sense).

use the best patches from each and edit between them in audio.


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## germancomponist (Nov 12, 2020)

I think the way what Samplemodeling startet is a right way for a perfect library in the right direction, but at this time it is not perfect?


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

ansthenia said:


> They haven't wasted your money, you have, they made it clear what you would be buying.


I am still feeling annoyed by that. Like you said. It sounds amazing, it is just THAT sound you like. But there is that hole in that library for no reason at all. And for some inexplainable reason that is often staccato ore spiccato.


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## Film Sounds (Nov 12, 2020)

This is exactly why I've started buying gear. I want to sample strings with a lot more consistency than I've seen from other developers. I'm only starting, so I'm not saying "hey, look at me"... not at all. I'm just saying I sympathize completely here. Edit: my string sampling may just end up being for me.

We buy in on the 5% a library adds to what's possible, only to realize how much isn't possible with a library. Technique lists don't tell us enough.


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## Noeticus (Nov 12, 2020)

So.... the Sample Library Conundrum is that as a sample library producer and purveyor you can never produce a library that fulfills what everyone wants, and as a sample library producer and purveyor you would never actually want to produce a library that fulfills what everyone wants because if it did they would have no reason to ever buy a library from you again.

Obviously the above statement is not meant to be taken literally. 

As a side note, I believe that Vienna Symphonic Library has more articulations presently than any other company in the world. But, I could be wrong.


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## Laurin Lenschow (Nov 12, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> And also, i think orchestral tools does have the berlin series that seems more to your liking?


That is what I thought - if money is not that important to you, Berlin Strings is probably your best option in terms of number of articulations and RR (I don´t own them, but it seems that way)


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 12, 2020)

I just bought Nashville. Talk about leaving out Staccato  I knew before buying though, but still. “Let’s make a string library and then leave out Staccato.” - who thinks like that!


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## peladio (Nov 12, 2020)

hbjdk said:


> Ok, but AR, what does it stand for? Sorry for being slow



Abbey Road


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## Film Sounds (Nov 12, 2020)

OP,

Have you used Aaron Venture's libraries? The strings are still pending, and the tone may or may not be sufficient for you, but consistency and agility certainly speak to the original point. Plus he's a developer that's been worth supporting, given his philosophy.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 12, 2020)

peladio said:


> Abbey Road


Thanks!


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

Film Sounds said:


> I want to sample strings with a lot more consistency than I've seen from other developers


Let me know if you do, I can help you .


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

Film Sounds said:


> Have you used Aaron Venture's libraries? The strings are still pending, and the tone may or may not be sufficient for you, but consistency and agility certainly speak to the original point. Plus he's a developer that's been worth supporting, given his philosophy.


+1 Real innovation. His stuff is on my to buy list. Still covered with other libraries though (And my own custom libraries). I will eventually get those, just not yet.


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## Allegro (Nov 12, 2020)

Not affiliated with anything Berlin. In fact, i'm not a fan of their legatos. Their shorts however...


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

I just want to say, we have hit 3 pages in maybe 30 minutes. So this has to have stuck a chord with some people haha. :D I am not alone! Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.


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## MartinH. (Nov 12, 2020)

Allegro said:


> Not affiliated with anything Berlin. In fact, i'm not a fan of their legatos. Their shorts however...



I was gonna suggest Berlin series as well (don't own it though). Having Metropolis Ark 1 among my libraries, I find it hard to go back to something that doesn't have an equivalent to portato short and long in addition to staccato/spiccato.


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## X-Bassist (Nov 12, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> I just want to say, we have hit 3 pages in maybe 30 minutes. So this has to have stuck a chord with some people haha. :D I am not alone! Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.


I think I'm like you, except I don't pull the trigger. With too many libraries to explore already, I hold off until.... I know eventually a developer will do more shorts AND include a system that switches between them without extra keyswitches. My money is safely hidden under a rock until then. :D

Edit: After reading this thread I'm going through the Berlin Strings Expansions and they are quite nice. I may have to do some digging if the Kontakt version of the Main Berlin library goes on sale...


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## AndyP (Nov 12, 2020)

SysPro was the step in the right direction for me. There I miss almost nothing more.
Besides Century Strings, HO Diamond, Areia and the BBO FX Stings I hardly use any other string libraries anymore.


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## Daniel James (Nov 12, 2020)

ansthenia said:


> they made it clear what you would be buying.



That's debatable.


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

AndyP said:


> SysPro


What is Sys Pro?


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## Polkasound (Nov 12, 2020)

Just as surely as you can buy a virtual trombone that doesn't slide or a virtual fiddle that doesn't do double stops, you can be assured any other virtual instrument library is capable of lacking anything.


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## Kevinside (Nov 12, 2020)

Sys Pro is Synchron Strings Pro.... I have Sys1 and Pro and Fx Strings...and VSL did a great Job with them... And another vote for OT Berlin Series...And of course, there is Spitfire with the very complete Libs like Chamber Strings and Symphonic Strings...


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> any other virtual instrument library is capable of lacking anything


Yes, but.. shorts are not complicated to sample. I don't see the reason at all.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 12, 2020)

My experience has been:

You might find that the more familiar and competent you become with scoring for orchestra, the more you see the huge deficit sample libraries have and judging by the releases - as you've mentioned - are no closer to filling the gap.

There are of course exceptions.

Funnily enough - as others have mentioned - Hollywood Strings is far closer to satisfactory sampling than other recent string offerings.


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## dzilizzi (Nov 12, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> I may have to do some digging if the Kontakt version of the Main Berlin library goes on sale...


I bought BWW in the last sale because I needed winds more than strings. But that was 2 or 3 years ago. Still waiting.....


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## jtnyc (Nov 12, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> No, but you know. I am a 30 something with money to burn. I just want more? Maybe it is fatigue.
> I just feel like, developers should strive for more then just the bare bones. There are people who pay more. It just needs to be done?
> 
> And truth be told. Sampling 4 types of shorts is not really complicated. It just means about 1-2 h more studio time. When I pay upwards of 3-400€ for something, I think that can not be to unreasonable to expect?


Again, how can expect something (a staccato etc) to be there when it’s not listed as part of the library? Your position makes no sense to me, sorry.


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## Casiquire (Nov 12, 2020)

I was going to mention Synchron Strings Pro as well. Sounds exactly right for you


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## dzilizzi (Nov 12, 2020)

jtnyc said:


> Again, how can expect something (a staccato etc) to be there when it’s not listed as part of the library? Your position makes no sense to me, sorry.


I get it though. The library sounds great! But, no staccatos. How can you have this almost perfect sounding library but not include a basic articulation that would make it the perfect string library. It's kind of like they get almost there and say "Yup, good enough! We're tired and want to go home. I think we'll stop here." And then you have this great sounding, partially usable library. That doesn't quite mesh with anything else.


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## lettucehat (Nov 12, 2020)

jtnyc said:


> Again, how can expect something (a staccato etc) to be there when it’s not listed as part of the library? Your position makes no sense to me, sorry.



I don't think he's complaining about a bait-and-switch but rather that largely very good libraries have glaring omissions that become big problems when you try to use them on a regular basis. It's like if CineWinds didn't have B-flat clarinet among the standard winds, and tucked it into CineWinds Pro or something. I mean, not that bad, but similar idea - just, why?


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 12, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I get it though. The library sounds great! But, no staccatos. How can you have this almost perfect sounding library but not include a basic articulation that would make it the perfect string library. It's kind of like they get almost there and say "Yup, good enough! We're tired and want to go home. I think we'll stop here." And then you have this great sounding, partially usable library. That doesn't quite mesh with anything else.


Exactly! For Nashville, why did they choose to record Harmonics instead if such a basic articulation as Staccato? It doesn’t make much sense.


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## X-Bassist (Nov 12, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I bought BWW in the last sale because I needed winds more than strings. But that was 2 or 3 years ago. Still waiting.....


Get Ready. OT is planning a sale after the NI sale, my hope is the strings in Kontakt get a decent discount.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 12, 2020)

Not sure which libraries you’re referring to but Synchron Strings Pro has been amazing and a real breath of fresh air for me in terms of consistency, usability, depth, and tone.


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## Yogevs (Nov 12, 2020)

AI Areia has both Staccato and no less than TWO versions of Spiccato


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## dzilizzi (Nov 12, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Get Ready. OT is planning a sale after the NI sale, my hope is the strings in Kontakt get a decent discount.


Well, it would make sense since I was saving my big spend for BBCSO if it was on the wishlist sale.


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## CT (Nov 12, 2020)

lettucehat said:


> Creating an incomplete product with an unclear and vague roadmap as to what will be added in the (quite distant) future.



Since when has any developer started a new line and given a precise calendar indicating future release dates so far in advance? Nobody knows where the Synchron stuff is going nor when, nobody knew exactly what the plan was when Alex Wallbank put out Cinematic Strings, or CS2, or even CSS, at least as far as specific dates go, and we still don't know when the percussion might show up. Did Cinesamples map out everything for us in advance? Was there ever a clear game plan for 8dio's Century stuff before the strings and brass were released, and is there one now for future installments? Aaron Venture lists his strings as coming in 2021, ostensibly, and the percussion is still TBA. Jasper Blunk offers what he wants, when he wants, even things that are part of larger collections. Those new Nashville strings are lacking certain things, as I understand it, with more content planned eventually?

You either buy into something on faith that it'll eventually come together, or you stick with what you have/what is already "complete." No developer has ever made that easy, and I'm not sure they really have any obligation to.


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## Kurosawa (Nov 12, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Get Ready. OT is planning a sale after the NI sale, my hope is the strings in Kontakt get a decent discount.


From where did you get this informatio?


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## lettucehat (Nov 13, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Since when has any developer started a new line and given a precise calendar indicating future release dates so far in advance? Nobody knows where the Synchron stuff is going nor when, nobody knew exactly what the plan was when Alex Wallbank put out Cinematic Strings, or CS2, or even CSS, at least as far as specific dates go, and we still don't know when the percussion might show up. Did Cinesamples map out everything for us in advance? Was there ever a clear game plan for 8dio's Century stuff before the strings and brass were released, and is there one now for future installments? Aaron Venture lists his strings as coming in 2021, ostensibly, and the percussion is still TBA. Jasper Blunk offers what he wants, when he wants, even things that are part of larger collections. Those new Nashville strings are lacking certain things, as I understand it, with more content planned eventually?
> 
> You either buy into something on faith that it'll eventually come together, or you stick with what you have/what is already "complete." No developer has ever made that easy, and I'm not sure they really have any obligation to.



I'm not sure how you interpreted my comment, but I'm talking about incomplete individual products and not about developers announcing all of their future products years in advance. That is the topic of the thread, after all.


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## CT (Nov 13, 2020)

Same principle. Performance Samples stuff comes along bits at a time. Remember Adagio being released in individual volumes? Orchestral Tools did some similar stuff. Cinebrass was incomplete before Cinebrass Pro came along. The woodwinds too. Cineperc also came together in spurts. Synchron Percussion. It's nothing new, as difficult as it can make things. And it seems quite uncommon for any of the major developers to not see things through. So again, you either buy into an ongoing thing or not, but it's hardly a new model for Spitfire at Abbey Road. 

As for what this thread is about, I can't claim to have much sympathy for the degree of impulse buying that seems necessary to result in €1500 worth of regret....


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## chocobitz825 (Nov 13, 2020)

This is a losing game for developers. There will never be a perfect strings library. After following this forum for years it’s clear to see that everyone wants the perfect library for their individual needs.

it’s always missing a certain articulation one person wants. It’s always too wet or too dry. The shorts are always missing something or don’t satisfy the sound the user wants. The legatos aren’t smooth enough, the longs sound weird. Phase issues, vibrato issues, etc etc.

All the while the assumption is that the fix would be just a few more hours of work. A little copy paste, liquid courage and editing magic and problem solved, right?

budget, studio time, players time, editing time, all these things cost money from a likely initially set budget. Problems happen, and things take longer than estimated. So these omissions may be nothing more than the actual limit of what could be done with the time and money available. Let’s not forget whatever the price point and whether we think it’s right or overpriced, the price is meant to not only recoup the costs of making the library, but also invest in future projects, keep the lights on and maintain service on the libraries.

my guess for why we can’t get the perfect library is because it’s such a complicated, risky and expensive process, that we’re lucky we continue to get quality, useable libraries with the variety we have. I mean, whatever we’ve spent, for the entirety of our professional work, it’s still cheaper and quicker than hiring out players.


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## Saxer (Nov 13, 2020)

The newer the library the more incomplete.

I bought Sable (now Spitfire Chamber Strings) as a basic library (to be completed). They only had Violins 1 and Celli and a few articulations. It took about five years but now they are probably the most complete chamber string library.

Same with Dimension Strings: I got the violins only as a start (to be completed soon). It took more than one and a half year for the full section. Muted and sul pont came more than five years later. Now DS is my most used bread and butter library.

Similar to Synchron Strings: the first release was incomplete and a lot of customers were upset. Now they added Synchron Strings Pro and it's one of the most detailed string libraries. Also took three years.

Creating sample libraries isn't a work of a few weeks. If you want to release before you get completely broke you have to release in chapters. It might be questionable which articulation belongs to the first basic set. But close to nobody will buy a new library because of the shorts.


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## Al Maurice (Nov 13, 2020)

Following the string libraries of late, it seems that trends change over time:

First they have too many longs, so along come some shorts to cover.

Then the release timing is too long.

Then they are not tight enough for fast lines.

Then everyone wants the sound of the room.

So out go the staccatos in favour of spiccato which is played much faster and gives more room character.

The developers just can't win.


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## Sovereign (Nov 13, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Not sure which libraries you’re referring to but Synchron Strings Pro has been amazing and a real breath of fresh air for me in terms of consistency, usability, depth, and tone.


Sys Strings 1 or Pro are hardly innovative IMO. In some ways Pro even sets steps backwards (2 velocity layers, c'mon).


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## Crowe (Nov 13, 2020)

NI Symphony Series Strings has this really large Knob in the middle of the UI.

That's all the innovation I'm ever gonna need.








Just. Look. At. It.


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## FinGael (Nov 13, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> NI Symphony Series Strings has this really large Knob in the middle of the UI.
> 
> That's all the innovation I'm ever gonna need.
> 
> ...



I wish the sound was on a par with that design...


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## doctoremmet (Nov 13, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> NI Symphony Series Strings has this really large Knob in the middle of the UI.
> 
> That's all the innovation I'm ever gonna need.
> 
> ...


I somehow love that interface. Must be the knob. The KNOB.


----------



## constaneum (Nov 13, 2020)

so what's changed after years of experience gathered are basically offering of more mic options & more recorded space options for you to to tweak the sound to your liking instead. nothing much of an improvement in the general standard, articulation sampling wise. So it is evolving throughout the sampling journey? Any new or revolutional sampling techniques? Legato for instance generally hasn't improved much over the years. probably, that's pretty much it.


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## Raphioli (Nov 13, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> Sys Strings 1 or Pro are hardly innovative IMO. In some ways Pro even sets steps backwards (2 velocity layers, c'mon).


Agreed.

Thats the main thing why I'm not sold (besides the dongle policy thing).
I'm not saying they should have done like 5 to 8 velocity layers for the legato and longs like the original SyS1.
But 4 layers would have been nice for a 2020 library.

BUT! Who knows. Like it has been discussed above, it takes time to develop sample libraries.
Maybe they would add those additional layers in the future in SyS Pro 2 or something.


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## chocobitz825 (Nov 13, 2020)

constaneum said:


> so what's changed after years of experience gathered are basically offering of more mic options & more recorded space options for you to to tweak the sound to your liking instead. nothing much of an improvement in the general standard, articulation sampling wise. So it is evolving throughout the sampling journey? Any new or revolutional sampling techniques? Legato for instance generally hasn't improved much over the years. probably, that's pretty much it.



CSS and Aaron venture have made pretty good changes for how to gather better and more expressive options, but I don’t think changing the wheel has been the focus up until various developers decided to dabble into proprietary samplers and players. Most of these libraries are just about keeping up with the trends. Trying to nail the tone of recent scoring trends. For some people that means everything or nothing.


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## GtrString (Nov 13, 2020)

I agree with OP in many ways. I look for the exact same things in a lib and with a dev.

I dont have much insight into their decision making, though. There must be a ton of variables, and they also need to make money from the work.

The ProjectSam realm is what comes closest for me. I can find something that works 9/10 times in the Symphobia and Swing series, and/or discover new ideas in the process. If I look beyond those libs, I have a hard time finding and adjusting stuff. Probably just fits me to a tee, and Im used to it. I do need and like other stuff beyond the ProjectSam stuff, but it is much more fragmented and in-between.. stuff


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## Alex Fraser (Nov 13, 2020)

As it's always been, these libraries are merely "slices" in time of performances that we try to stitch together cack handed with midi.

Whilst it's fun to complain or "have an opinion" about new releases, I don't really get the vitriol that often comes with it. Sure, it's OK to push developers if new releases fail in the technical department and don't deliver a usable product. But things like articulations, dynamic laters and the like - there's always a reason as to why those decisions are made by the devs and doesn't follow that they were the "incorrect ones."


----------



## M Abela (Nov 13, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> I don't want to rant, but with recent dissapointments, and more then 1500€ wasted. I feel like I need to say something.
> 
> I purchased 3-4 libraries recently and mostly regretted buying them. Because they will not be usefull to me at all.
> 
> ...



Combine the entire Berlin series with the Cinematic Studio Series. That's the best and most realistic option so far that I've found, short of recording live. Everything else.....


----------



## Crowe (Nov 13, 2020)

I must apologize, as it turns out that I was wrong.




NOW, it's perfect.






Pretty sure the lack of this Knob is what's wrong with all the strings-libraries.


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## Laurin Lenschow (Nov 13, 2020)

The PUNISH knob does look very nice.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 13, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> Sys Strings 1 or Pro are hardly innovative IMO. In some ways Pro even sets steps backwards (2 velocity layers, c'mon).



IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with the amount of velocity layers in SSP. Some people don't fully understand how the included patches are meant to complement each other. It's a better library in every aspect.


----------



## Sovereign (Nov 13, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with the amount of velocity layers in SSP. Some people don't fully understand how the included patches are meant to complement each other. It's a better library in every aspect.


No I understand just fine. Complement what? The soft patches? Plenty of very soft dynamics for sure, but they're not going to make up what is missing in the regular legatos and longs, which are crossfading (if I remember correctly) between p and ff only. Nothing in between, and to me quite noticeable.


----------



## EgM (Nov 13, 2020)

Beans said:


> What is your opinion of EastWest Hollywood Strings?



I went through the same dilemma as OP a while ago and since then, the meat of my strings section is always EWHO Diamond, it has everything. I then use other strings libraries for colors I need.

Perfect example of 'New isn't always better'


----------



## ptram (Nov 13, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> Sys Strings 1 or Pro are hardly innovative IMO. In some ways Pro even sets steps backwards (2 velocity layers, c'mon).


The velocity layers are more. They just unpacked them from the usual single patch, making them accessible as separate patches. This is an innovation (that you may like or not).

Paolo


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## Raphioli (Nov 13, 2020)

ptram said:


> The velocity layers are more. They just unpacked them from the usual single patch, making them accessible as separate patches. This is an innovation (that you may like or not).
> 
> Paolo


Thats actually interesting. Do you have any official statements or links to official webpages that state this?
I'm just curious because SyS1 has double the size (GB) of SySPro and wondering where that difference is coming from.


----------



## Sovereign (Nov 13, 2020)

ptram said:


> The velocity layers are more. They just unpacked them from the usual single patch, making them accessible as separate patches. This is an innovation (that you may like or not).


uhm, no. The regular longs and legatos are just two layers. Which dynamics do you think you are actually fading through when playing those patches? The fact that there are other separate patches for soft playing (p and pianissimo) is meaningless.


----------



## ptram (Nov 13, 2020)

Raphioli said:


> Thats actually interesting. Do you have any official statements or links to official webpages that state this?


I don't know if there is an official statement, but this was discussed earlier in this forum. If you look at the list of long patches, you will see levels graduating from ppp/flautando, to very soft, p, ff, strong/molto vib. It's five levels, accessible either individually, or by crossfading between the separate patches.

There is also an official video showing this (walkthrough part 3):






SYNCHRON STRINGS PRO - Vienna Symphonic Library


Synchron Strings Pro represents the next generation of sampled string ensembles, fusing artistic expression, a wealth of detailed articulations, natural note transitions and sonic excellence within a resource-friendly, easy-to-use product.




www.vsl.co.at





This approach was already possible with the old VI series, where separate velocity layers were available. In SSP they don't simply separated them by velocity layers, but also by using a more descriptive name.

Paolo


----------



## ptram (Nov 13, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> uhm, no. The regular longs and legatos are just two layers. Which dynamics do you think you are actually fading through when playing those patches? The fact that there are other separate patches for soft playing (p and pianissimo) is meaningless.



It is not meaningless. It is a different (and rather innovative) approach. For normal playing, you use the "normal" median-velocity patch, using the full 0-127 value range. This is what you will use most of the time. The player seems to make the transition from bottom to top very smooth.

When you need to go very soft, you call that patch. If you want and overly loud dynamic, you call that patch. This approach has been used, for example, with brass, where the cuivré of blare articulation was left apart. They are also using it also for strings (and for brass, in the BBO series).

Paolo


----------



## Raphioli (Nov 13, 2020)

ptram said:


> I don't know if there is an official statement, but this was discussed earlier in this forum. If you look at the list of long patches, you will see levels graduating from ppp/flautando, to very soft, p, ff, strong/molto vib. It's five levels, accessible either individually, or by crossfading between the separate patches.
> 
> There is also an official video showing this (walkthrough part 3):
> 
> ...



Thanks. I'll definitely take a look at that, because it'll change my impression of the library a lot.

Edit: I watched the video and understood the technical aspect of it. But also wonder, if all of the dynamic layers in SyS1 are in SySPro, where the size difference of the library coming from. But I think this is a question I should ask the developers at VSL directly.

Thanks again for the valuable input.


----------



## Sovereign (Nov 13, 2020)

ptram said:


> It is not meaningless. It is a different (and rather innovative) approach. For normal playing, you use the "normal" median-velocity patch, using the full 0-127 value range. This is what you will use most of the time. The player seems to make the transition from bottom to top very smooth.
> 
> When you need to go very soft, you call that patch. If you want and overly loud dynamic, you call that patch. This approach has been used, for example, with brass, where the cuivré of blare articulation was left apart. They are using it also for strings (and for brass, in the BBO series).


There's nothing "innovative" about putting a single dynamic in a single patch. That's just as "innovative" as putting every articulation in a single patch. But that's not really what bothers me if you had read carefully.

You proved what I said earlier, that there are tons of *soft* dynamics in SysPro, but that "the patch you will use most of the time" has only a single ff strong layer which you crossfade into from p. There is no intermediate mp, mf or f layer, which to me is quite audible, as the hissy/raspy sound characteristics of the piano layer are still there with the modwheel even halfway up. BCCSO has the same issue. That is disappointing. So no, the soft layers really are meaningless to my criticism, as there are no actual recordings covering the very important dynamic range between p and ff.


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## ag75 (Nov 13, 2020)

When is LASS 3 supposed to drop? I’m excited about the possibilities of that library. LASS 2.5 is still a favorite of mine.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 13, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> There's nothing "innovative" about putting a single dynamic in a single patch. That's just as "innovative" as putting every articulation in a single patch. But that's not really what bothers me if you had read carefully.
> 
> You proved what I said earlier, that there are tons of *soft* dynamics in SysPro, but that "the patch you will use most of the time" has only a single ff strong layer which you crossfade into from p. There is no intermediate mp, mf or f layer, which to me is quite audible, as the hissy/raspy sound characteristics of the piano layer are still there with the modwheel even halfway up. BCCSO has the same issue. That is disappointing. So no, the soft layers really are meaningless to my criticism, as there are no actual recordings covering the very important dynamic range between p and ff.



You're making it sound as if there was this massive fault with the library where the patch suddenly jumps from soft to aggressive and there's nothing in between, which is a total misrepresentation of the facts. The standard patches are not for the softest of performances, but there's nothing wrong with them.


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 13, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> I don't want to rant, but with recent dissapointments, and more then 1500€ wasted. I feel like I need to say something.
> 
> I purchased 3-4 libraries recently and mostly regretted buying them. Because they will not be usefull to me at all.
> 
> ...



On one hand, I can somewhat understand your frustration, but on the other hand?

It's actually a bit difficult to sympathize, because it seems like you aren't doing your research before you're buying these libraries.

I mean, why would you buy a string library that has spiccato, but not staccato, and then make a thread to complain about inconstancy? Developers list every articulation that's included in the library, so I'm not entirely sure why you'd be so surprised. Did you not read the articulation list before you bought the library? (Serious question, not trying to be condescending).

Regardless, I do think there is a solid point somewhere in the midst of your hungover rant.

It really doesn't seem like we've made huge strides since Hollywood Strings. That library truly was a game changer, and it set the bar so high that some developers seem to have difficulty surpassing it. Even worse, some developers have made string libraries that actually don't even come close (i won't name names).

On the flipside i do think certain developers have continued to raise the bar, not in huge strides, but just enough to notice a difference. I'm hoping these baby steps will eventually accumulate to what will be considered the be-all, end-all string library.

We can always hope, right?


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## Sovereign (Nov 13, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> You're making it sound as if there was this massive fault with the library where the patch suddenly jumps from soft to aggressive and there's nothing in between, which is a total misrepresentation of the facts. The standard patches are not for the softest of performances, but there's nothing wrong with them.


Not what I said and not what I meant. But there's a big difference between claiming the library has five dynamics while the reality is more than half of those dynamics sit at the bottom of the dynamic scale. Sure, they are good for soft performances, but the louder, intermediate dynamics are still absent. 

Don't get the idea I don't like it for what it is, I actually re-purchased SySPro after I got a refund because SySPro is different. And I like the violas and Cellos. But it has its issues.


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 13, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> No, but you know. I am a 30 something with money to burn. I just want more? Maybe it is fatigue.
> I just feel like, developers should strive for more then just the bare bones. There are people who pay more. It just needs to be done?
> 
> And truth be told. Sampling 4 types of shorts is not really complicated. It just means about 1-2 h more studio time. When I pay upwards of 3-400€ for something, I think that can not be to unreasonable to expect?


What's unreasonable is to expect a string library to have a certain articulation (not included on the articulation list) AFTER you buy the library.

It's a bit like complaining about getting sand in your shoes when you're at the beach. What the hell did you think was gonna happen?

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% with you in that developers should always strive for improvement, but to gripe about a product's shortcoming with the prior knowledge of what it's incapable of makes ZERO sense.

Bottoms up, eh?


----------



## Polkasound (Nov 13, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> Yes, but.. shorts are not complicated to sample. I don't see the reason at all.



But there's still the laborious task of creating the samples and assembling them into the library. Every sampled articulation adds time and money to a library's creation.

My point about the trombone and fiddle is that when you'd naturally expect a fundamental articulation or ability to be there, that doesn't mean it will be, and the reason it's not there is up to each individual developer. Just like a fiddle VI developer might think a sampled scoop will be good enough instead of a playable scoop, a string VI developer may think a marcato articulation will good enough to use as a staccato articulation. The reason could be trying to cut corners, trying to keep costs down, trying to be more specialized, or just plain ignorance.

I've learned the hard way over the years that even though you can spend days researching a library to make sure it has everything you need, you can't disregard the obvious. In almost every photo of a car for sale, only three of the car's four tires are visible. Before you buy a VI library, make sure it's not a three-wheeled car.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 13, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> And while talking about usable,
> 3-4 Short articulations are more usefull to me then only Staccato and Spiccato. Please give me moooooooooooore. Most film music is like a slow detache da-di-da-di-da-di. Why is this still not sampled?????
> And please include 3 RR on your Marcato samples.
> A patch without RR samples, for me, automatically wanders into my trashcan.



Well, you mentioned you "think" you have Hollywood Strings Gold. If so, you already have every imaginable articulation. It is a very comprehensive, well programmed library. IMO, the Legatos are still the best in the industry.


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## ptram (Nov 13, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> more than half of those dynamics sit at the bottom of the dynamic scale. Sure, they are good for soft performances, but the louder, intermediate dynamics are still absent.



Isn't the sfz patch and additional louder layer? I don't have the library (yet), but by listening to the demos it seems to be a fff layer (actually, two layers).

Paolo


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## Mike Fox (Nov 13, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Get Ready. OT is planning a sale after the NI sale.



The quintessential example of wishful thinking.


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## Beans (Nov 13, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Get Ready. OT is planning a sale after the NI sale, my hope is the strings in Kontakt get a decent discount.



I recall people commenting on problems with RAM or CPU usage for the OT Berlin strings. Is this still a concern (that is, a CAPSULE issue), or is it only if attempt to load a vast template with everything enabled?


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## dzilizzi (Nov 13, 2020)

Saxer said:


> The newer the library the more incomplete.
> 
> I bought Sable (now Spitfire Chamber Strings) as a basic library (to be completed). They only had Violins 1 and Celli and a few articulations. It took about five years but now they are probably the most complete chamber string library.
> 
> ...


I'm kind of okay with this. I bought AR1, not because I really wanted it, but I am buying into the eventual modular orchestra. I probably won't buy all the $49 extended products, though a few may be useful. An ensemble in the same space as the full orchestra will be useful, and it helps finance the creation of the next steps. The more money they have to spend, the more likely it will eventually come to fruition. 

I am a little concerned that Abbey Road will pull the plug before Spitfire can complete everything. But hopefully not. I think by doing it in modules, they won't be as limited as they might be doing a full section. I know Kontakt has caused some of the limitations. I remember Embertone complaining about it with The Walker. And the Spitfire player is not yet perfect. So it will take time. And hopefully, in the end, close to perfect?


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Nov 13, 2020)

I'm just here to say that Spitfire, Cinesamples and Embertone strings are all growing cobwebs after I started using Sample Modeling Solo and Ensemble Strings. In my workflow, the performance has been better, the programming has been faster, and most importantly the finished sounds have been more usable. My 2 cents.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 13, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> I must apologize, as it turns out that I was wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NOW it is worthy of the title ÜBERKNOB!


----------



## muk (Nov 13, 2020)

The problem for fellow string library enthusiasts is that the major developers have released their flagship orchestral string libraries already. Cinematic Studio Series, VSL, OT, Cinesamples, Eastwest, Spitfire etc. do have the strings libraries that carry their orchestral lineups. If they are to release more strings libraries, they have to be sufficiently different from what they already have in their catalogue. Mostly that means more specialized strings like London Contemporary Strings, or ensemble based approaches (VSL Musca and Lyra). Spitfire will, at some point, release new Symphonic Strings recorded at Abbey Road, but that's the exception. By and large the biggest developers have released at least one, if not several, bread and butter orchestral strings libraries.

So mostly we can hope for a new developer to come out of the blue, like Cinematic Studio Series did. Or a smaller developer starting an orchestral line, like Sonokinetic did/will.


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## Noeticus (Nov 13, 2020)

The irony is that they have not released what is missing from the "missing articulations" list.


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## ysnyvz (Nov 13, 2020)

ptram said:


> Isn't the sfz patch and additional louder layer? I don't have the library (yet), but by listening to the demos it seems to be a fff layer (actually, two layers).
> 
> Paolo


I created my user patches for expressive legato lines with 5 sections.
To be honest I like the result more than my other libraries. This library shouts "freedom" 
Here is me playing some nonsensical chords and only moving modwheel:


----------



## Chungus (Nov 13, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Get Ready. OT is planning a sale after the NI sale


I would also like to know what you base this on.


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## Beans (Nov 13, 2020)

ysnyvz said:


> I created my user patches for expressive legato lines with 5 sections.
> To be honest I like the result more than my other libraries. This library shouts "freedom"
> Here is me playing some nonsensical chords and only moving modwheel:




Thanks for posting this! I really appreciate the examples you've been providing in a lot of threads as of late.


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## ysnyvz (Nov 13, 2020)

Beans said:


> Thanks for posting this! I really appreciate the examples you've been providing in a lot of threads as of late.


Glad to help. That's motto of the forum


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 13, 2020)

ysnyvz said:


> I created my user patches for expressive legato lines with 5 sections.
> To be honest I like the result more than my other libraries. This library shouts "freedom"
> Here is me playing some nonsensical chords and only moving modwheel:




Not to mention if you really wanted swells or diminuendo, Synchron Strings Pro has REAL recorded ones you can use.


----------



## stodesign12 (Nov 13, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Get Ready. OT is planning a sale after the NI sale, my hope is the strings in Kontakt get a decent discount.


It's a black friday sale?


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## Casiquire (Nov 13, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> Sys Strings 1 or Pro are hardly innovative IMO. In some ways Pro even sets steps backwards (2 velocity layers, c'mon).


Recorded sul tasto and ponticello legato, attack and release variations, plus those dynamic layers can be layered with expressive pianissimos (so you have more than two dynamic layers) nah i think it takes a few great steps forward!


----------



## Michel Simons (Nov 13, 2020)

Daniel James said:


> Complacency.
> 
> If people keep buying shit, what incentive do they have to improve.
> 
> ...



Are you talking about string libraries or Marillion?




dzilizzi said:


> Well, it would make sense since I was saving my big spend for BBCSO if it was on the wishlist sale.



Wasn't that one released last year? I would expect it to be part of the wishlist sale or whatever it is that is going to replace or has replaced it.



Mike T said:


> As for what this thread is about, I can't claim to have much sympathy for the degree of impulse buying that seems necessary to result in €1500 worth of regret....



My thoughts exactly. But then again, if you have enough money to burn...

My advice is, move away from all this orchestral nonsense.

Now, should I pour myself another glass of red wine or go to bed? Those are real-world problems, and not all this w(h)ining about missing shorts (perverts!) or missing legato. (Rumour has it that AROOF doen't have legato. Can anyone confirm that?)


----------



## CT (Nov 13, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> (Rumour has it that AROOF doen't have legato. Can anyone confirm that?)



No that's wrong, it does, but only for the timpani. 



Casiquire said:


> Recorded sul tasto and ponticello legato, attack and release variations, plus those dynamic layers can be layered with expressive pianissimos (so you have more than two dynamic layers) nah i think it takes a few great steps forward!



SCS had flautando and sul pont legato, attack (not sure about release?) variations, and four dynamics for the core articulations, a number of years ago.


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## doctoremmet (Nov 13, 2020)

Michel Simons said:


> Rumour


That’s no rumour


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## Casiquire (Nov 13, 2020)

Mike T said:


> No that's wrong, it does, but only for the timpani.
> 
> 
> 
> SCS had flautando and sul pont legato, attack (not sure about release?) variations, and four dynamics for the core articulations, a number of years ago.


Sure. And it's one of VERY few that have any of those.


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## CT (Nov 13, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Sure. And it's one of VERY few that have any of those.



In the spirit of this thread, I do wish that Synchron Strings Pro offered as comprehensive a selection of con sordino material as sul ponticello, perhaps, instead of. I think I may own it by now had that been the case. Similar story with Hollywood Strings, which just has an emulation. Alas!


----------



## Noeticus (Nov 13, 2020)

Strangely, I find all this back and forth quite informative.

Which is why I love this forum.


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## Casiquire (Nov 13, 2020)

Mike T said:


> In the spirit of this thread, I do wish that Synchron Strings Pro offered as comprehensive a selection of con sordino material as sul ponticello, perhaps, instead of. I think I may own it by now had that been the case. Similar story with Hollywood Strings, which just has an emulation. Alas!


The absence of it does seem to hint at a future expansion, in my opinion


----------



## Ben (Nov 13, 2020)

I just catched up here in the thread and just for clarification I want to post my PM response to @Raphioli from a few hours ago when he asked me about the size difference and "unpacking" of SY Strings I / Pro:

It's partially true that the articulations were "unpacked".
Most of the Synchron Strings Pro are based on new recordings incorporating the experience we gained with the releases of the other Synchron and BBO libraries. We decided to also include some articulations of the Synchron Strings I to create a library that can be used on its own without the need of first getting SY Strings I (therefore the name PRO instead II).
Some articulations are unpacked, others were designed and newly recorded this way.

The size difference is mainly caused by the amount of different legato variants with many velocity layers of SY Strings I that are not included with the Pro.
But don't let the number of just 2 velocity layers fool you - these strings can get very emotional and handle huge dynamic ranges.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Nov 13, 2020)

The market for simple orchestral sample libraries that play themselves to sit beside synth vi's, etc. has been the way things have been headed for a long time:









Nathan Micay on Creating the Music Behind HBO'S ‘Industry’


Micay is the composer of Industry’s soundtrack and a relative newcomer to the scoring scene.




composer.spitfireaudio.com





Again, just compile the best patches into one big library, hire soloists, etc.


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## Sovereign (Nov 14, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Recorded sul tasto and ponticello legato, attack and release variations, plus those dynamic layers can be layered with expressive pianissimos (so you have more than two dynamic layers) nah i think it takes a few great steps forward!


We'll just have to disagree here. Recording more playing techniques IMO are not "great steps forward" and I'd hesitate to call it real innovation since it's not breaking new grounds per se. by that standard one could also call Spitfire the king of innovation (which they are not) with all the additional techniques they tend to record for many of their libraries. 
Attack variations are not innovative either since many were doing this well before Synchron (controlled in CSS with velocity, just to give you one example). So no, mere additional recordings using similar technology is not on the same foot as the introduction of that technology itself, like when VSL started doing legato recordings and invented their script. That really was innovative, a real leap in terms of reproducing a more real-sounding orchestra. Are we seeing such steps today? Not nearly as much as I'd like.


----------



## ptram (Nov 14, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> Are we seeing such steps today? Not nearly as much as I'd like.


I like small advancements, often too humble to tell, or not pushed loud enough. Something I like very much in the Synchron Player is how you can control timestretch in realtime, creating articulations as long as you need at that moment. It's just the good, old time stretch, integrated in a new way. The result is a different approach to short articulations.

Attack and release variations were controllable in the old libraries, but I created a set of commands to send them as a single bundle. Easier to read in the score. Having them ready is a workflow improvement over drawing in the CC lane.

The same with Dominus Choir's legato technique: nothing more than morphing, as seen in Kontakt or the old Diphone. But used in a way that makes it immediately usable. They may be a small step for a developer, but are a big one for a composer!

Paolo


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## Casiquire (Nov 14, 2020)

Sovereign said:


> We'll just have to disagree here. Recording more playing techniques IMO are not "great steps forward" and I'd hesitate to call it real innovation since it's not breaking new grounds per se. by that standard one could also call Spitfire the king of innovation (which they are not) with all the additional techniques they tend to record for many of their libraries.
> Attack variations are not innovative either since many were doing this well before Synchron (controlled in CSS with velocity, just to give you one example). So no, mere additional recordings using similar technology is not on the same foot as the introduction of that technology itself, like when VSL started doing legato recordings and invented their script. That really was innovative, a real leap in terms of reproducing a more real-sounding orchestra. Are we seeing such steps today? Not nearly as much as I'd like.


I think the conversation is drifting. I agree that none of those things are revolutionary. But i do think that sampling a breadth of articulations that are rarely seen is--in a small way--innovative. And when it comes to Spitfire (a company I'm not normal a big fan of) i think it was also innovative that they so tightly tied the sounds of the instruments with the sounds of their recording spaces to the point that you're almost buying the room itself. But we might disagree on using the term "innovative" in both those cases and I think that's a perfectly fair and valid point of disagreement.

Where i think things drifted though is in the fact that the whole point of bringing up SysP is just to show that we're not finished with wide ranging string libraries that have all the articulations you need, in relation to the original post. They don't all come out with some glaring omission; some even have extra goodies that are rarely seen while not sacrificing that important core. I didn't mean to dress SysP as a game changer. Sometimes the rhetoric gets ahead of me!


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## Ashermusic (Nov 14, 2020)

There should be no disagreement about what "innovative" means, that is why we have dictionaries.

in·no·va·tive| ˈinəˌvādiv | adjective(of a product, idea, etc.) featuring new methods; advanced and original.

So where we have to decide for ourselves is how much needs to be "new" methodology and what constitutes "advanced."

Yes, I am pedantic.


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## Casiquire (Nov 14, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> There should be no disagreement about what "innovative" means, that is why we have dictionaries.
> 
> in·no·va·tive| ˈinəˌvādiv | adjective(of a product, idea, etc.) featuring new methods; advanced and original.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm going to flat out disagree that the existence of dictionaries means there's never disagreement on words haha


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## Ashermusic (Nov 14, 2020)

Casiquire said:


> Yeah I'm going to flat out disagree that the existence of dictionaries means there's never disagreement on words haha



True, only among the literate


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## maestro2be (Nov 14, 2020)

There actually is a webpage from VSL that compares the differences between sys1 and syspro with layers and articulation differences. It was in one of the sys pro discussions that’s currently active. Ben could probably link it here too.


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## maestro2be (Nov 14, 2020)

Yes, if you go to that link, just before it actually starts telling you all the articulations it says to click here to see a direct comparison between Sys1 and SysPro. Thanks that's what I was looking for.


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## Jay Panikkar (Nov 14, 2020)

Here's the latest product, with all the flaws of the previous product, but recorded in a slightly different space with slightly different people wrapped in slightly different packaging and only an EQ and some FX away for sounding like every other competing product.

Oh, what's that? You don't like it? Too bad! No refunds, no resales.


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## Noeticus (Nov 14, 2020)

A direct link to the data does not seem possible.


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## Noeticus (Nov 14, 2020)




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## Noeticus (Nov 14, 2020)

Perhaps Ben can make this a real webpage in the near future so as to allow direct links to the data.

Or perhaps I have found it...






Vienna Symphonic Library







www.vsl.co.at





or

www.vsl.co.at/en/Fancyboxes/Strings_Comparison


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## X-Bassist (Nov 16, 2020)

Beans said:


> I recall people commenting on problems with RAM or CPU usage for the OT Berlin strings. Is this still a concern (that is, a CAPSULE issue), or is it only if attempt to load a vast template with everything enabled?


Yes, esp the brass, with a large templete it can be an issue, but haven’t heard that complaint with the strings. I assume because the strings were done first they were a little more conservative with the string samples, making them a smaller load, but it may not matter. Might be a matter of the version of capsule your using. Really wish they had worked on this before abandoning capsule.

But sine player might be their fix. Personally I just feel all the new developer players (Sine, SPitfire, etc) are still being developed and not anything past a basic sample player. Just downloaded the latest version of Sine and I was surprised how little there is to it (moreso with Spitfire’s player). Even Kontakt wasn’t much before version 4, so it may take some serious time.


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