# Orchestration with Pro Tools in a Large-Template Scenario: can it be done



## TimRideout (Oct 15, 2015)

Here is a question for orchestrators and anyone who uses a large-scale template in a DAW coupled with Vienna Ensemble Pro: can you use PRO TOOLS in a large template situation?

I have been scoring and orchestrating for several years now, using different DAWs such as Reaper, Acid, Cubase etc. This year I have been dabbling in Pro Tools for cross-compatibility reasons, and am noticing a fundamental difference in the way Pro atolls works compared to other DAWs that handle large-scale midi templates with ease- when I say large scale, let's say 500+ tracks.

The key for these large templates (usually orchestral in nature) seems to be organization by collapsible folder. Logic does this extremely well, as does Cubase, Reaper and even good old Sony Acid. Pro Tools does not.

That being said, my question is simple: does anyone here work successfully with large-scale orchestral templates using Pro-tools? If so, how do you do it- how do you organize 500+ tracks and dozens of busses? I have not yet been able to reconcile Pro Tools with this kind of work flow and would love to hear from anyone who has. Thanks!


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## snattack (Oct 16, 2015)

TimRideout said:


> Here is a question for orchestrators and anyone who uses a large-scale template in a DAW coupled with Vienna Ensemble Pro: can you use PRO TOOLS in a large template situation?
> 
> I have been scoring and orchestrating for several years now, using different DAWs such as Reaper, Acid, Cubase etc. This year I have been dabbling in Pro Tools for cross-compatibility reasons, and am noticing a fundamental difference in the way Pro atolls works compared to other DAWs that handle large-scale midi templates with ease- when I say large scale, let's say 500+ tracks.
> 
> ...



ProTools has a limit of 512 midi tracks, even the HD system.


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## TimRideout (Oct 23, 2015)

Ouch. That's unfortunate. For the record, there is no track limit in Reaper.


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## X-Bassist (Oct 23, 2015)

TimRideout said:


> Here is a question for orchestrators and anyone who uses a large-scale template in a DAW coupled with Vienna Ensemble Pro: can you use PRO TOOLS in a large template situation?
> 
> I have been scoring and orchestrating for several years now, using different DAWs such as Reaper, Acid, Cubase etc. This year I have been dabbling in Pro Tools for cross-compatibility reasons, and am noticing a fundamental difference in the way Pro atolls works compared to other DAWs that handle large-scale midi templates with ease- when I say large scale, let's say 500+ tracks.
> 
> ...




Since I do a lot of post in Pro-tools, I've learned how to deal with big templates. Once I dove into instruments I found getting beyond 400 tracks to be difficult, even with everything organized, labeled, colored, ect. Moved to doing templates (with VE Pro) in sections- At this point Strings, Brass, Woodwinds, Percussion, Drums, Bass and Guitars, Keys, Synths, Drones, Arps, and FX have their own templates, each containing 100-400 tracks.

The trick is that in each of these section templates has a number of aux tracks, each containing a VE Pro instance, so that the section is broken down into sub categories, or favorites. There is a Midi track for each chosen sound, with each aux at the top of the set it goes with. This way doing a session just involves opening a blank session, adding my "master" tracks from a template (Master fader with mastering plugins installed, custom click tracks) then add JUST the instances I need- the new Alboni One Strings, plus a great piano and that deep bass I have in Trilian. I'm off and running.

Takes a bit of set-up but the advantage is I can make the choices of a big template, but keep my working session small a workable- easily deleting the tracks or instruments that I don't need. The sessions save faster and work smoother- opening quickly. I'm still waiting for Play sessions to save quicker- for now I stick to mostly Kontakt and it's working great.


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## Anders Wall (Oct 23, 2015)

TimRideout said:


> The key for these large templates (usually orchestral in nature) seems to be organization by collapsible folder. Logic does this extremely well, as does Cubase, Reaper and even good old Sony Acid. Pro Tools does not.
> 
> That being said, my question is simple: does anyone here work successfully with large-scale orchestral templates using Pro-tools? If so, how do you do it


I use show/hide mix/edit-groups.
My main template is 400+ midi and roughly 100 aux, audio trax.
Works like a charm.


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## TimRideout (Oct 26, 2015)

Thanks X - I'm glad that someone has it working  

I'm trying to understand the technical specifics of your setup though - could you elaborate more in-depth? I would love to see this system in action. We probably don't have the same sound libraries, but would mind posting a PTX file, or screencap (or YouTube tutorial...  for clarity's sake?

Thanks!



X-Bassist said:


> Since I do a lot of post in Pro-tools, I've learned how to deal with big templates. Once I dove into instruments I found getting beyond 400 tracks to be difficult, even with everything organized, labeled, colored, ect. Moved to doing templates (with VE Pro) in sections- At this point Strings, Brass, Woodwinds, Percussion, Drums, Bass and Guitars, Keys, Synths, Drones, Arps, and FX have their own templates, each containing 100-400 tracks.
> 
> The trick is that in each of these section templates has a number of aux tracks, each containing a VE Pro instance, so that the section is broken down into sub categories, or favorites. There is a Midi track for each chosen sound, with each aux at the top of the set it goes with. This way doing a session just involves opening a blank session, adding my "master" tracks from a template (Master fader with mastering plugins installed, custom click tracks) then add JUST the instances I need- the new Alboni One Strings, plus a great piano and that deep bass I have in Trilian. I'm off and running.
> 
> Takes a bit of set-up but the advantage is I can make the choices of a big template, but keep my working session small a workable- easily deleting the tracks or instruments that I don't need. The sessions save faster and work smoother- opening quickly. I'm still waiting for Play sessions to save quicker- for now I stick to mostly Kontakt and it's working great.


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## TimRideout (Oct 26, 2015)

Interesting - could you explain a bit further?

For example, what do you hide/show? How do you have your tracks numbered and named? How do you get around 400+ tracks? What kind of bussin gdo you use? I'm curious, becasue Pro-Tools has always been a mystery in terms of not having Track Folders.

Thanks!



WallofSound said:


> I use show/hide mix/edit-groups.
> My main template is 400+ midi and roughly 100 aux, audio trax.
> Works like a charm.


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## Anders Wall (Oct 26, 2015)

TimRideout said:


> Interesting - could you explain a bit further?
> 
> For example, what do you hide/show? How do you have your tracks numbered and named? How do you get around 400+ tracks? What kind of bussin gdo you use? I'm curious, becasue Pro-Tools has always been a mystery in terms of not having Track Folders.
> 
> Thanks!


Re: show hide tracks.
If your interested on how to set it up, here's a short tutorial.


I use VEPro with three slaves.
One with smaller orch and solo instruments.
One with large orch, East West Hollywood
One with synths and extras.

I use "normal/traditional" orchestra order. flutes, reeds etc.. p.fl, fl1, fl2, a.fl...
I then send the instruments to audiotracks and then to instrument groups ie flutes
I have a Avid Artist Control and I use one of the pages for to view the show/hide group shortcuts.

Workflow is midi to audio then I balance the orch with the groups.

Cheers,
/Anders


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## Spip (Oct 26, 2015)

@WallofSound : Thanks for your post !

Do you activate/de-activate the MIDI tracks or the power of the slaves is enough and you don't need to de-activate anything ?


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## X-Bassist (Oct 26, 2015)

Wall of sound has the right idea, you can group tracks and have keys to hide/show specific sets of tracks, so not all tracks are showing at once (no scrolling) but everything still plays. Jumping around to different groups as you mix (can be set up as if you were using folders). In your template it's just important to purge samples once your done setting up and deactivate the tracks, so when you import the tracks you just turn on (and load) the tracks you need.

Since Protools has a 500 midi track limit (plus 265 instrument tracks?) I break my templates into sections. But my working session usually only involves 100-300 tracks. The only issue with groups is I believe you have to set them up each time, since when you import tracks it wouldn't import the groups as well. But I'm sure you could group tracks right after you import them, which gets added to the group list - bottom left pane on the edit widow.

Once your groups are set up, holding control and command as you click to the left of the group name (1st colum) will hide all tracks except those in the group. Pretty clever and saves real estate. Set them to a larger size (since you know have the space) and hold down the key combo while clicking group to group (as if it were folder to folder). This video has more info on groups and setting them up.


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## Anders Wall (Oct 26, 2015)

Spip said:


> @WallofSound : Thanks for your post !
> 
> Do you activate/de-activate the MIDI tracks or the power of the slaves is enough and you don't need to de-activate anything ?


I have "fast and powerful" slaves with 64gb ram SSD's etc, so I leave them running with all the instruments loaded.
If I hadn't I'd use other functions as "Track presets"


Best,
Anders


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## Spip (Oct 27, 2015)

WallofSound said:


> ...
> If I hadn't I'd use other functions as "Track presets"
> Best,
> Anders



That's the way I was thinking of... I'm slowly coming back to Pro Tools and I'm setting up a new workflow. It seems promising.

Thanks for the link. About track presets, I've watched this tutorial. Probably coming from the same source...


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## TimRideout (Oct 27, 2015)

Great info, gang! Thanks for being so specific


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## samphony (Oct 27, 2015)

TimRideout said:


> Great info, gang! Thanks for being so specific


Did you ditch the idea of using reaper?


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## TimRideout (Oct 27, 2015)

samphony said:


> Did you ditch the idea of using reaper?



Not in the last - IMHO, Reaper is still vastly superior to Pro Tools, pretty much in every way. I can get way more done, way faster. For orchestral work, the folder system is a godsend and for TV/STEM-based delivery, the Render Matrix is second to none.


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## jaketanner (May 15, 2017)

Don't mean to revive an old thread, but why, or how on Earth would you use 500 tracks of MIDI for any type of mock-up? I come from a music production background, so I'm well aware that some Modern Productions can use upwards of a hundred tracks... But I believe it it's all in the arrangement as well. Just because we have the unlimited resources, does it mean that we need to use them or am I wrong in thinking that the arrangement is key and not the endless possibilities that we have in the digital domain nowadays.

I am just starting out my Venture in this film TV scoring, and I'm just here to understand why you need hundreds and hundreds of tracks in a in order to get your point across.


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## sazema (May 15, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Don't mean to revive an old thread, but why, or how on Earth would you use 500 tracks of MIDI for any type of mock-up? I come from a music production background, so I'm well aware that some Modern Productions can use upwards of a hundred tracks... But I believe it it's all in the arrangement as well. Just because we have the unlimited resources, does it mean that we need to use them or am I wrong in thinking that the arrangement is key and not the endless possibilities that we have in the digital domain nowadays.
> 
> I am just starting out my Venture in this film TV scoring, and I'm just here to understand why you need hundreds and hundreds of tracks in a in order to get your point across.



People like to make big templates with *all library articulations* loaded and *on-demand*. So, imagine you're using VSL and you setup your template with all available instruments and articulations, which is more than hundred.
So, at certain point depending of libraries you have you can expect to have just 100 tracks in your strings section, divided by library itself, then by articulation.

...Of course some of them not


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## jaketanner (May 15, 2017)

Ok, makes sense..so it's not that there are necessarily 500 tracks, but it's the articulations on separate tracks that add up? I have kontakt 11, plus sampketank3 and miroslav as my library this far. Along with Ethnos 2 from MOTU.


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## sazema (May 15, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Ok, makes sense..so it's not that there are necessarily 500 tracks, but it's the articulations on separate tracks that add up? I have kontakt 11, plus sampketank3 and miroslav as my library this far. Along with Ethnos 2 from MOTU.



Yes, and for example you wish when you open your template all of your libraries loaded. So you will have main strings section with first Kontakt related patches (for strings) then ST3, like

*STRINGS*

*SSS*
Violin 1
Sustain
Pizz
Legato
Bartok
bla bla

Violin 2
Viola

*ST3*
Violin 1
Violin 2
Viola

*Albion*
Violin 1
and so on


and you will notice of how your template is growing


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## jaketanner (May 15, 2017)

Awesome, thank you for the information. I have logic as well, would I be better off in Logic than in PT12? I'm not familiar with Logic, but I can learn it.


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## Spip (May 15, 2017)

Folder tracks are coming to Pro Tools this year. A decision following their recent survey, it seems. 

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/hom...e-results-from-aca-pro-tools-survey#gsc.tab=0


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## Farkle (May 15, 2017)

Yes. Go buy Mike Verta's "Scoring a film in 7 days", and you'll see that he does a feature film with his pro Tools Orchestral template, and did it in 7 days.

Mike


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## jaketanner (May 15, 2017)

Farkle said:


> Yes. Go buy Mike Verta's "Scoring a film in 7 days", and you'll see that he does a feature film with his pro Tools Orchestral template, and did it in 7 days.
> 
> Mike



Is this course truly worth it? Aside from scoring in 7 days, what other information would be in there for someone starting out? Or is there a different course you would recommend? I was trying to see if there are any trailers or teaser videos for the course to see if I would be interested, and couldn't find it.


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## Saxer (May 15, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Is this course truly worth it? Aside from scoring in 7 days, what other information would be in there for someone starting out?


Just grab one... 30$ doesn't hurt and it's all full of information and entertaining.


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## jaketanner (May 15, 2017)

Saxer said:


> Just grab one... 30$ doesn't hurt and it's all full of information and entertaining.



Been looking to a few titles. I think I'll start with scoring.


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## Farkle (May 16, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Is this course truly worth it? Aside from scoring in 7 days, what other information would be in there for someone starting out? Or is there a different course you would recommend? I was trying to see if there are any trailers or teaser videos for the course to see if I would be interested, and couldn't find it.



2 things.

1. You asked if people can do a large scale orchestration with Pro Tools. I gave you a direct resource video that shows that someone can (and did) do it. If you are asking if Mike Verta's class "scoring in 7 days" is worth purchasing, that's a separate question.

2. Mike Verta gives a 100% money back guarantee. You can ask him. He has also only had to do that once. Once. Out of 4 years, and multiple videos. So, odds are, you will find his classes engaging and useful.

Personally, I think Scoring a film in 7 days is totally worth the money. It's 7 (!) hours long, Mike walks through cue by cue, how he did it, why he did it. It's excellent.

Scoring one is very good, he walks through how he scored the supernatural thriller "don't blink". If you are just starting out with Mike, I think he recommends Composition 1, Orchestration 1, Kickstarters to start with.

Mike


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## jaketanner (May 16, 2017)

Farkle said:


> 2 things.
> 
> 1. You asked if people can do a large scale orchestration with Pro Tools. I gave you a direct resource video that shows that someone can (and did) do it. If you are asking if Mike Verta's class "scoring in 7 days" is worth purchasing, that's a separate question.
> 
> ...




Thanks for that. I am actually checking out some youtube videos Mike has. I have been doing music production professionally for many many years, and using pro Tools as well, just never on the large scale as for scoring, hence the curiosity. Also, by worth it, I meant more if it's a good place to start as a first video...reading the descriptions, I may just go for that one. I wish there was one that walked you through all the steps to getting a gig. What comes first, the contact, the demo reel? Both? lol

Anyway, thanks for your time and insights, much appreciated.

Jake


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## jaketanner (May 16, 2017)

Related question to the hundreds of tracks within a template...how does your computer system handle so many VIs and still be able to record and not have any latency? Maybe a better question is, how powerful does the computer need to be, to handle such large templates?


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## sazema (May 17, 2017)

Already posted on some other thread, but it's again related to this theme, this guy made few videos about this theme


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## jonathanparham (May 17, 2017)

Thanks Sazema. This is helpful as I've started developing a Pro Tools Template with multiple Kontakt instances for Orchestral Work. One thing I've noticed on the Mac Logic and Cubase side is people using ipads with different software for hiding the groups and calling up only tracks that they're working on. Is there anything like that on the ProTools PC side?


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## sazema (May 17, 2017)

jonathanparham said:


> Thanks Sazema. This is helpful as I've started developing a Pro Tools Template with multiple Kontakt instances for Orchestral Work. One thing I've noticed on the Mac Logic and Cubase side is people using ipads with different software for hiding the groups and calling up only tracks that they're working on. Is there anything like that on the ProTools PC side?



Really, I have no idea, I'm not PT user, but sure it exists by just a quick googling

http://www.avid.com/products/pro-tools-control
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.humatic.tdf&hl=en


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 17, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Don't mean to revive an old thread, but why, or how on Earth would you use 500 tracks of MIDI for any type of mock-up? I come from a music production background, so I'm well aware that some Modern Productions can use upwards of a hundred tracks... But I believe it it's all in the arrangement as well. Just because we have the unlimited resources, does it mean that we need to use them or am I wrong in thinking that the arrangement is key and not the endless possibilities that we have in the digital domain nowadays.
> 
> I am just starting out my Venture in this film TV scoring, and I'm just here to understand why you need hundreds and hundreds of tracks in a in order to get your point across.



I totally understand where you're coming from, it seems excessive at first. I just finished building my main orchestral/cinematic Logic X template, with VEPro 6, and quickly exceeded 100 tracks....it doesn't take long (I'm glad there are track stacks!). However, I don't see the need to load every single patch from each library, especially when most of them are very similar. I just find the ones that I will most likely use, and go from there. I know a composer who has every single patch from Hollywood Strings in his template, which is probably overkill; I think his entire template, spread across two slaves, is around 1500 tracks.

Regarding Pro Tools, I seem to recall James Horner did all of his MIDI mock-ups for Avatar in PT, consisting of a massive template.


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## jonathanparham (May 17, 2017)

sazema said:


> Really, I have no idea, I'm not PT user, but sure it exists by just a quick googling
> 
> http://www.avid.com/products/pro-tools-control
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.humatic.tdf&hl=en


ok


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