# Every character should have a theme



## Lassi Tani (Aug 20, 2021)

This topic has been probably discussed over and over again, but I love themes and thematic scoring, I'm studying film scoring and would like to hear your opinions. Max Steiner said "Every character should have a theme". Why would someone write character themes today? In what kind of movies would that fit? Why have many modern composers abandoned themes?

Is it because of realism that the films try to portray a realistic world, where a strong theme would break the illusion of realism?


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## styledelk (Aug 20, 2021)

I think today the sense of "what is a character" has broadened and changed. Perhaps even "what is characteristic" is a more relevant question today. Every character might have a few themes, or perhaps now The City is a character, brooding is a character, the absence of character is a character. Is a theme melody? Is it a harmonic change? Orchestration? This has broadened. You can tuck your theme into more pockets now.

But I also think you're right that (some) realism is brittle to strong themes. However, how realistic is it to have pounding drums and low strings during action?


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## GNP (Aug 20, 2021)

Lassi Tani said:


> Is it because of realism that the films try to portray a realistic world, where a strong theme would break the illusion of realism?


You just mentioned an extremely important point here. In a typical filmscoring class, we're just trained to write and develop themes. However, in the greater world out there, like you said, sometimes, a strong theme would break the illusion of realism. And that started from directors, who's such knowledge trickled down to the composers.

That said, there's nothing wrong with having themes, except nowadays, the key rule seems to be "less is more". The most important thing that I feel alot of composers who are looking to start out in the industry,* have failed to understand the importance of not breaking the illusion of realism. 

They go on and on and complain and whine about how "film music these days are not like the golden days", but you can tell they've been just only concerned about how great music they can write - but NOT in tandem with keeping the illusion alongside the story and visuals. *

They would write extremely bombastic shit and go, "Isn't my music great???" But when you tell them that their music takes one out of the realism of the film, and it's just not working, they stare at you like a dog that's just been shown a card trick.

*A very one-sided affair.*

That's not to say there's "no room left in the modern world for greater music" - we can still utilize 'golden era' music. But in this day and age, that would be extremely specific to treatment, just not a broadstream stroke of a weapon.


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## nspaas (Aug 20, 2021)

Depends on the project.

What constitutes a character?
What constitutes a theme?


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## Robin Thompson (Aug 20, 2021)

Great thread. I take issue with making "realism" the metric here though. I don't think that's it at all. For one thing it comes back to the old anecdote about Alfred Hitchcock not wanting any music in Lifeboat because "where would the orchestra sit?" ("Same place as the cameras" came the reply). _All_ non-diegetic film music is fundamentally a contrivance. Really, the most realistic effect would be having no music at all, and yet films today tend to be more heavily scored than ever.

And in point of fact, I don't think movies today _are_ more realistic. More realistic FX? Yes. More realistic acting? Debatably, depending how far back you're comparing. More realistic framing/staging/pacing? Not at all, and in fact quite the opposite. I'd say realism overall probably peaked in the 70s. At that point we were past the major acting revolutions of the century, but directors still gave the audience space - be it through wider shots, longer takes and/or more relaxed pacing - to observe the world of the story the same way we would the real world. For stuff to just happen naturally and be recorded on film. The defining trait of modern cinema is that the flow is more tightly controlled. It's not just faster cutting. The camera is almost constantly moving, building its own momentum, and it tends to look closer, showing us one exact thing at a time. The lighting, colors, even focus (hi Zach Snyder) are often manipulated to hyperreal extremes. And of course the editing is faster and more stylized, like a temporal collage. The overall experience is carefully sculpted and propulsive.

And the point of it all is precisely to _escape_ realism. And it always has been. I think if realism were ever the goal then film composers wouldn't exist (and 48fps would have caught on like fire). Instead what's changed is the tools and conventions filmmakers have to push their films into the hyperreal. Within the more spacious pacing of older films, composers not only had more room to write and develop their themes, they simply shouldered more of the burden of elevating the reality of the world, and expansive melodies were a great way to do that. These days the picture itself is doing more of that work, and is more tightly paced anyway, and the composer has to be in tune with it, elevating that energy without distracting or clashing with it. And I think that means music today has to work a little more in the edges. And expansive melodies, sadly, are often _not_ a great way to do that.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 20, 2021)

This is a protracted conversation, but there is a pretty compelling argument that this most recent generation of American artists have completely rejected fundamental artistic practices in exchange for _cause de jour_ messaging or personal "expression."

A storyteller's bible should be Aristotle's _Poetics_. A musicians should be _The Well-Tempered Clavier_. An actor's should be Stanislavski.

How many creative Xers, Millennials, or Zoomers can quote from any of these?

Even as consumers of content, too many Xer's musical concepts begin and end with Pearl Jam. Many Millennials' movie history starts with _Jurassic Park_. Zoomers, Tiktok dance videos. These preferences are even evidenced by their presence in Dow Chemical commercials during the Super Bowl... hilariously so.

Right now, where would musical themes fit in a market of "express yourself" _cause de jour _art making_,_ and who under the age of 50 is capable of actually executing a fundamentally good film? The problem is much deeper than studios defaulting to quick-cut escapist Marvel slop.


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## nspaas (Aug 20, 2021)

L’idee fixe is not the only way to skin a peach.


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## JohnG (Aug 20, 2021)

Lots of movies have themes, including character themes. It seems that in the US, they are mostly kids' movies, or fantasy / adventure things, or romances -- not "brutal reality."

I scored a series in Japan using character themes all over; some melodies were 32 bars long.

And one of my favorite shows lately has been "Unforgotten" which, while it doesn't have character themes is, nevertheless very prominently playing the drama. Really well too!

There's still a wide variation, I think.


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## dgburns (Aug 20, 2021)

Correction - Every caricature deserves a theme.

Ask me again in a few years, I might feel differently…


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## KEM (Aug 21, 2021)

I don’t know if I entirely agree, it really just depends on what the film needs, not every character is going to require a theme, and let’s not forget that a “theme” doesn’t have the be a melody, it can just be a single sound or hit, there’s no rules


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## Henning (Aug 21, 2021)

Well, character theme writing is still going strong. Check out Bear McCreary's Masters of the Universe for a current example. Read Bear's blog how he developed the motifs. Awesome soundtrack!


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## Lassi Tani (Aug 21, 2021)

styledelk said:


> I think today the sense of "what is a character" has broadened and changed. Perhaps even "what is characteristic" is a more relevant question today. Every character might have a few themes, or perhaps now The City is a character, brooding is a character, the absence of character is a character. Is a theme melody? Is it a harmonic change? Orchestration? This has broadened. You can tuck your theme into more pockets now.
> 
> But I also think you're right that (some) realism is brittle to strong themes. However, how realistic is it to have pounding drums and low strings during action?


Yeah, it seems that a lot has broadened and changed, themes, characters, the whole filmmaking process.

I read that in addition to the changes in editing and technology, characters in many films today don't have clear identities thus the lack of strong musical ideas. And @KEM is right, not every character is going to require a theme, but it might be quite tricky for a starting composer to get into the mindset of the director and support the narrative instead of putting the music on a pedestal.


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## fakemaxwell (Aug 21, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> This is a protracted conversation, but there is a pretty compelling argument that this most recent generation of American artists have completely rejected fundamental artistic practices in exchange for _cause de jour_ messaging or personal "expression."
> 
> A storyteller's bible should be Aristotle's _Poetics_. A musicians should be _The Well-Tempered Clavier_. An actor's should be Stanislavski.
> 
> ...


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## KEM (Aug 21, 2021)

Lassi Tani said:


> Yeah, it seems that a lot has broadened and changed, themes, characters, the whole filmmaking process.
> 
> I read that in addition to the changes in editing and technology, characters in many films today don't have clear identities thus the lack of strong musical ideas. And @KEM is right, not every character is going to require a theme, but it might be quite tricky for a starting composer to get into the mindset of the director and support the narrative instead of putting the music on a pedestal.



A good reference point for me is The Dark Knight, the three main characters in the film are Batman, The Joker, and Two-Face, and they are the only characters that really have “themes”, but The Jokers theme is just one drawn out e-cello note, Batman’s theme is just a two note horn riser, and Two-Face is the only one that actually has a fully stated melody and harmony, and this works perfectly for what the film needs, and that’s the only goal that a composer should have when working on a film.

The times have changed, we don’t have to solely rely on sweeping orchestral melodies for everything we do in film, I personally have no interest in that style anyways, I’ve never been able to get into John Williams and older composers like that, I respect them greatly but it isn’t for me at all, and it clearly isn’t for most people now either because those scores have been on a decline for decades now


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## JohnG (Aug 21, 2021)

"old man yells at cloud" is a pretty good summary of just about any commercial endeavor that has an aesthetic or craft basis.

Prokofiev wrote "Peter and the Wolf" -- for children, let's remember -- over 100 years ago. Max Steiner worked 80 years ago. So yes, "old."

Done well though, character motifs or themes can be effective and, I think, fun for the audience and the composer.

I guess for me it's a mix between meeting audience expectations and being as honest as I possibly can about my own response to a character. Not to mention what the director and the rest of the production team want. But I try hew closely to my own genuine response to the material. Otherwise one risks just pandering.

So, sometimes "character themes, yes," sometimes no.

*Specific Film*

I'm on a project that has a love theme that's both conspicuous and very clearly a love theme. The other thematic material varies in clarity; in some scenes you can hear that it's a "royal" theme or a place theme. In others the thematic / associative music is more more colours or masked enough so that I don't know who besides me will realise it's there.

It was fun amalgamating the love theme with the royal / place theme though -- I like that spot.

A different project I'm still on as well requires character and place themes that are quite specific and identifiable.

*Honesty with Ourselves*

As others have said, do as you please, but we all want to avoid dishonesty in our responses. We have to write what we earnestly feel, even if it's silly or sentimental. Parts of life _are_ silly or sentimental.

Listened to a podcast about Shakespeare by a few professors yesterday and one aspect of the plays that they mentioned (which has been described many times) is that Shakespeare possessed an uncanny ability to inhabit characters fully -- from the low to the high, male and female, powerful and weak -- all of that. For me, that's a lot of what I love about him; Shakespeare's complete willingness to go all the way with a character and really live in that person's skin, from Iago to Falstaff to Rosalind, dazzles me.

So we should all aspire to that.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 21, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


>


🤷🏻‍♂️

An unscientific poll asked users here about personal musical aspirations and 50% of the people on this forum would rather be Brian Tyler than Shostakovich. In that context, this meme comes as no surprise.


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## fakemaxwell (Aug 21, 2021)

Yep, it's truly an indictment on the state of our times that a forum mostly filled with people interested in composing for film would prefer to have the career of a successful film composer


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## Dewdman42 (Aug 21, 2021)

Great topic. I think themes are good. Take the word "Theme" away from music for a moment. If you are a film director you have certain "themes" or "concepts" you are wanting to portray in the movie. This is often what the whole story is about rather than the plot line itself. Sometimes those themes are portrayed via characters and their interactions and sometimes they are portrayed through completely different inanimate objects, and sometimes those themes can't even be tied to any visual object at all, they are simply themes, concepts...important bits that the director is trying to convey through visual storytelling in a variety of ways.

These are by no means limited to only characters and their interactions. And likewise, there can often be characters that have such weak contribution to the important themes of the story, they are barely there enough to need an entire musical idea devoted to them.

I think in days past it was very common practice to present key points of the story through characters, their motives, their personalities, their archetypal role in the story in particular was of particular importance to the story themes being told by the writer/director of the film. Joseph Campbell would say that human beings have instinctively created a vast amounts of mythology based upon characters and their interactions to represent central things that we humans are all going through, in our consciousness and our pursuit of purpose in life. So we relate to these mythological stories, and almost without exception these stories involve archetypal characters that work with each other or against each other and represent our own inner conflicts, which are surprisingly consistent across all human beings.

So yea... if a movie is trying to tell those kinds of stories with certain archtypical story themes...then yea...those characters all probably need a theme..

But not all characters in a film deserve that attention. And likewise there can be, and are; many films where the themes being expressed through the story are specifically NOT based on archetypical character roles...other forms of storytelling are being used,...and the central important thematic (not musical), story telling ideas are not told particularly through characters and their interactions, but rather through other things happening. And yes concepts/themes of the story can and should be underscored with thematic music in my view. Also, if a movie is using non-character roles to present thematic ideas in the story, then creating character musical themes would only distract from the whole point of the film.

I feel that its over simplifying the process to simply apply a musical theme to every important character. That may have worked in old days when most films probably followed that model, but we see a lot more creativity today expressing ideas numerous ways and it may not always involve the characters and their interactions, but still the story themes need to be underscored. That is the whole point of the musical score IMHO.

And the entire job of the film score composer is to work with the writer/director to understand what those story themes are, regardless of whether they are presented via characters or not...and underscore them, bring attention to them in the right way, which sometimes can be with silence or understated music I might add. The theme will be repeated and that repetition will be recognized by the viewer that something important is being shown repeatedly and needs to be thought about. It may or may not be an actual character.


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## Dewdman42 (Aug 21, 2021)

There can also be, and often are, many films being made with scarcely any important thematic storytelling..its all about the roller coaster ride...in which case character-based musical themes may very well detract from the roller coaster ride..the point of the ride is adrenaline and the spectacle being protrayed.. The musical themes will be minimal...but still people seem to like to hear some musical repetition, so its good to find SOMETHING to underscore with musical theme IMHO.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 21, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> Yep, it's truly an indictment on the state of our times that a forum mostly filled with people interested in composing for film would prefer to have the career of a successful film composer


Shostakovich wrote music for films, and is firmly ensconced in the Western canon. Part of my point is that this is something you _should_ know

It _is_ an indictment of the times that a plurality of musicians interested in film music cannot execute basic musical tasks, and then try and excuse their poor music by pointing to Hans Zimmer’s “simple” Batman music (as if there’s no underlying craft of weaving an incredibly delicate sonic tapestry).

Your position is a pretty bizarre one to be held by a purportedly creative person—why encourage others to limit their musical experiences/influences? Why trade the classics for this 8-horn taiko drum nonsense?


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## Robin Thompson (Aug 21, 2021)

Something worth noting... it probably speaks to the enormous influence of _Star Wars_ that we're even having this conversation. It's pretty much THE film score in the minds of the public and many professionals alike (not undeserved imho), and I suspect it's largely responsible for a perception that character themes are used less today than they really are, and more in the past than they really were. In truth, _Star Wars_' extensive use of leitmotif was and remains fairly unique, even among William's own work (liner notes always take no end of pleasure in pointing out what a novel idea it was at the time). A more typical Williams score has one or two richly-developed major themes, a prominent but simple motif or three, and occasionally a one-off idea used to set a scene apart from the rest of the score (a hallmark of his - see The Basket Game, Dennis Steals the Embryo, etc.). Not so different from films today.

Other reasons are occurring to me why melodic themes may be, or seem to be, less prominent than they were, beyond the changes in pacing I discussed in my last comment. For one thing I wonder if it has anything to do with opening credit sequences falling out of favor. That prelude was always a nice opportunity for a composer to introduce key ideas in essentially concert form - setting them up to be referred to later. A modern score might use themes the same as a 90s effort, but without a place to fully introduce them they could be more difficult to recognize. (I suddenly realize neither _Raiders_ nor _Jurassic Park_ really have preludes, but they do both have early opportunities to give their main themes a big introduction.)

Another big one might be that some of the most memorable themes of Williams, Horner, Barry and others in times past were memorable because they were expressions of grand, unbounded feelings of wonder or adventure or romance, and movies... don't really do that so much anymore. We live in cynical times where people are harder to impress and, if I may say, are more emotionally guarded. So the difference between Michael Giacchino's fairly dry, functional _Star Trek_, and Jerry Goldsmith's operatic masterpiece _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_, isn't that composers these days suck. Indeed, I have no doubt that Giacchino is capable of delivering something grandiose and inspiring. But Goldsmith was asked to score a (albeit ungainly and self-important) contemplation of the vastness and possibilities of outer space, while Giacchino was asked to score an action movie winking at franchise history for an audience that's seen a hundred space battles before, and both did their job accordingly. It's not the music that's changed. It's the movies that changed.


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## KEM (Aug 22, 2021)

Robin Thompson said:


> Something worth noting... it probably speaks to the enormous influence of _Star Wars_ that we're even having this conversation. It's pretty much THE film score in the minds of the public and many professionals alike (not undeserved imho), and I suspect it's largely responsible for a perception that character themes are used less today than they really are, and more in the past than they really were. In truth, _Star Wars_' extensive use of leitmotif was and remains fairly unique, even among William's own work (liner notes always take no end of pleasure in pointing out what a novel idea it was at the time). A more typical Williams score has one or two richly-developed major themes, a prominent but simple motif or three, and occasionally a one-off idea used to set a scene apart from the rest of the score (a hallmark of his - see The Basket Game, Dennis Steals the Embryo, etc.). Not so different from films today.
> 
> Other reasons are occurring to me why melodic themes may be, or seem to be, less prominent than they were, beyond the changes in pacing I discussed in my last comment. For one thing I wonder if it has anything to do with opening credit sequences falling out of favor. That prelude was always a nice opportunity for a composer to introduce key ideas in essentially concert form - setting them up to be referred to later. A modern score might use themes the same as a 90s effort, but without a place to fully introduce them they could be more difficult to recognize. (I suddenly realize neither _Raiders_ nor _Jurassic Park_ really have preludes, but they do both have early opportunities to give their main themes a big introduction.)
> 
> Another big one might be that some of the most memorable themes of Williams, Horner, Barry and others in times past were memorable because they were expressions of grand, unbounded feelings of wonder or adventure or romance, and movies... don't really do that so much anymore. We live in cynical times where people are harder to impress and, if I may say, are more emotionally guarded. So the difference between Michael Giacchino's fairly dry, functional _Star Trek_, and Jerry Goldsmith's operatic masterpiece _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_, isn't that composers these days suck. Indeed, I have no doubt that Giacchino is capable of delivering something grandiose and inspiring. But Goldsmith was asked to score a (albeit ungainly and self-important) contemplation of the vastness and possibilities of outer space, while Giacchino was asked to score an action movie winking at franchise history for an audience that's seen a hundred space battles before, and both did their job accordingly. It's not the music that's changed. It's the movies that changed.



Your last point goes right back to what I was saying about how the films are just different now, we’re in a new time period and the grandiose, sweeping orchestral scores just don’t really fit the kind of films that are being made now. You couldn’t have a score like that in a Christopher Nolan or Denis Villeneuve film, it just wouldn’t work contextually, there are definitely composers that are able to do that golden age style right now, and they have their niche and they do good work, but those kinds of scores just aren’t what most movies need now


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## Loïc D (Aug 22, 2021)

KEM said:


> Your last point goes right back to what I was saying about how the films are just different now, we’re in a new time period and the grandiose, sweeping orchestral scores just don’t really fit the kind of films that are being made now. You couldn’t have a score like that in a Christopher Nolan or Denis Villeneuve film, it just wouldn’t work contextually, there are definitely composers that are able to do that golden age style right now, and they have their niche and they do good work, but those kinds of scores just aren’t what most movies need now


I’m not so sure about it and I take this with a pinch of salt.
It’s also composers & directors following the zeitgeist and not trying anything new.

But take the latest StarGirl contest. Some composers did something very much in the zeitgeist and it works. But some did very “classic” golden age and it works as well.

Also, what JW did for Starwars was totally out of fashion at the time and it became a landmark in scoring.

So whatever the style, editing, fx and so on, daring to do something different is also important.

I guess @David Kudell would approve


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## fakemaxwell (Aug 22, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Your position is a pretty bizarre one to be held by a purportedly creative person—why encourage others to limit their musical experiences/influences? Why trade the classics for this 8-horn taiko drum nonsense?


I'm...doing the exact opposite? Where have I written that nobody should learn from the past masters?

You're using a lot of "should" in this conversation- you should know this, you should know that, with the implication being that if you don't prefer X you are incorrect or lesser. I've come to absolutely hate this prescriptivist nonsense.

If you _prefer _the music of Shostakovich over the music of current composer X that's completely fine. But when you say anybody who _prefers_ more current music is not doing it correctly, and then shake your fist at popular taste with some weird ageism thrown in, you can get out of here. Nobody is benefiting from your inappropriate gatekeeping.


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## chibear (Aug 22, 2021)

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I think virtually everyone is dancing around the question “Should the score follow the narrative or should it be relegated to background music?” Then you can deal with specifics. In all the discussion no one has brought up the fact that unless you are a Zimmer, Horner, or Williams you are, artistically speaking, pretty much a slave to your overlord producers in which case the OP actually deals mainly with Opera, Symphony, and Ballet.


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## JDK88 (Aug 22, 2021)

I don't agree with throwing out centuries worth of experience and research just because it's "old." Build upon it, expand it.

-Signed, A Millennial


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## JohnG (Aug 22, 2021)

JDK88 said:


> I don't agree with throwing out centuries worth of experience and research just because it's "old."


Sometimes it's not only old, but ineffective, threadbare from having been used too many times.


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## Living Fossil (Aug 22, 2021)

JDK88 said:


> I don't agree with throwing out centuries worth of experience and research just because it's "old." Build upon it, expand it.


Referring to tradition (or: "centuries worth of experience") usually also means focussing on certain parts of it and ignoring other ones.

Personally, being influenced very much from the tradition of the Opera, i was always amazed e.g. by the formal/structural stringency of Mozart's operas – which don't follow the route of "Leitmotivs". It's an other way to create a dramaturgic form without relying on that technique, but it works.

Or, as an other example, i think it's amazing what Alban Berg did in his Wozzeck. It goes much further than plain Leitmotiv-technique. Specially the 3rd Act is an incredible source of inspiration that shows how it is possible to deal with strong psychological themes.

And it really doesn't has to stop there. It always depends on what has to be done in a certain situation.

In one movie that i scored, the main topic evolved around a (complex) family.
I wrote a theme , which was a kind of the "DNA of the family", but didn't use the theme itself.
Only variations of it; these appeared in different situations and different settings.

Sometimes i also like to use similar (or very same) elements for different persons/situations.
It's like a musical wormhole that can connect different lines/aspects of a story.

Or approaches that e.g. rather associates certain instruments with persons than "motives".

Etc.

I agree that we have "centuries worth of experience" – and the occupation with tradition always has been a relevant part of me being an artist.
However, understanding tradition also means _not_ using certain methods if they don't fit the respective situation.


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## Tice (Aug 22, 2021)

I feel it's really not the presence of a theme that makes them work. A theme is a single word or sentence, spoken in a single way. But music as a language can do SO much more. The majority of a theme's value comes from how you alter it, and to communicate what exactly to the viewer/player.
The language is so much more precise than directors give it credit for that they often don't see the point of themes. The point isn't the recognisability, or the hummable melody. The point is that you can use it to communicate ANYTHING. And as a director, every frame, whether interactive or not, and every second of sound, is real-estate. Leave it 'empty' or keep it low in information density and you've just wasted that frame or second. You could have been giving subtext, or added meaning, or added emotion. But you thought a theme was just a point of recognition. Not the complex language that it really is.


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## JohnG (Aug 22, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> Or, as an other example, i think it's amazing what Alban Berg did in his Wozzeck. It goes much further than plain Leitmotiv-technique. Specially the 3rd Act is an incredible source of inspiration that shows how it is possible to deal with strong psychological themes.


Note: I will "like" any post that mentions Alban Berg _or_ Wozzeck.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 22, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Right now, where would musical themes fit in a market of "express yourself" _cause de jour _art making_,_ and who under the age of 50 is capable of actually executing a fundamentally good film?


This is the context of my gripe. It’s not an argument about scoring something like John Williams and calling it superior. It’s an argument that even if someone _wanted_ to make a film where a John Williams score would fit, they wouldn’t know how to do it. 

…and the guys mentioning Berg, you all really think that other guy has any clue who Berg is without Googling it? C’mon.

…it’s like talking cuisine with someone who thinks it’s ok to request parmesan cheese with his linguine and clams. Ya know what, better that person just eat at Olive Garden and not bother us while we pursue excellence lol.


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## Henning (Aug 22, 2021)

@Stephen Limbaugh So is there no current movie / tv score that you like? Nothing good out there?


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 23, 2021)

Henning said:


> @Stephen Limbaugh So is there no current movie / tv score that you like? Nothing good out there?


_Tenent_ and _Joker_ had some interesting sounds. But I think the last great score that will saturate society beyond its attachment to the film for which it was written was the one for _Interstellar_. Hans really threaded the needled with a composition that fit the movie, and sounds great as a standalone work.

Haven’t seen it, but I am sure that Powell’s _How to Train Your Dragon_ sequel displays mastery of the craft and might work as a standalone piece (pure conjecture). The latest season of _The Crown_ has a theme for Diana, but it’s not so memorable that an amateur can sit down and play it like _Windmills of Your Mind_ (a vibe that would have worked!)


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## Henning (Aug 23, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> _Tenent_ and _Joker_ had some interesting sounds. But I think the last great score that will saturate society beyond its attachment to the film for which it was written was the one for _Interstellar_. Hans really threaded the needled with a composition that fit the movie, and sounds great as a standalone work.
> 
> Haven’t seen it, but I am sure that Powell’s _How to Train Your Dragon_ sequel displays mastery of the craft and might work as a standalone piece (pure conjecture). The latest season of _The Crown_ has a theme for Diana, but it’s not so memorable that an amateur can sit down and play it like _Windmills of Your Mind_ (a vibe that would have worked!)


Good choices. John Powell really wrote some memorable themes for HTDYD. Actually lots of animated movies have very good music. There'a lots of music in TV shows that I like. The Queen's Gambit comes to mind. Personally I don't see the future of film music so bleak 😊


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 23, 2021)

Henning said:


> Good choices. John Powell really wrote some memorable themes for HTDYD. Actually lots of animated movies have very good music. There'a lots of music in TV shows that I like. The Queen's Gambit comes to mind. Personally I don't see the future of film music so bleak 😊


It’s pretty light for a period dubbed “the new golden age of TV” especially compared to the 50s, 70s, or 90s movies/scores.

I also forgot about the _Lala Land_ guys. Young and more than capable. Some people freakin’ hate ‘em though lol


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## Henning (Aug 23, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> It’s pretty light for a period dubbed “the new golden age of TV” especially compared to the 50s, 70s, or 90s movies/scores.
> 
> I also forgot about the _Lala Land_ guys. Young and more than capable. Some people freakin’ hate ‘em though lol


Yeah, the LaLaLand bunch are great. I see your point and sure, there's lots of shows and their music I don't care about. Still I could write pages about TV show intro themes and why I like them. But that would derail this thread entirely 😊

I'm doing games not TV but even here there's some stuff that's more character themed and some that works with just a main theme that pops up here and there. It's all so dependable on the project and what's good for it.


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## gohrev (Aug 24, 2021)

Would it be far-fetched to believe that sweeping views of lush landscapes accompanied by soaring strings will make a comeback?

I miss melodies in today's movie soundtracks. Clearly a very generalising statement, but I like to leave the cinema humming a beautiful tune. It seems to be _en vogue_ to create walls of sound, or soundscapes, without any theme to really anchor to.

Perhaps this is all part of the 'bigger is better' evolution of cinema, and perhaps this is why television series still have excellent music (Victoria, The Queen's Gambit, The Crown, Downton Abbey).


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## Casiquire (Aug 30, 2021)

Let's not get confused into believing that this style of scoring has fallen out of fashion due to lack of talent. That's the kind of thing we start believing with age--sort of a "rowdy kids get off my lawn" mindset. It's out of fashion because tastes and styles change over time, and who's to say which is better and which is worse. For me, i prefer nice scores rich with themes and motifs, but today's more textural scoring often has its own version of that, with changing textures representing characters or mood shifts we're seeing on screen.

I think we've seen some great themes in video games for a while now. Technology actually allows for seamless thematic evolution in video games now, so we're seeing them in that context


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 30, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> "rowdy kids get off my lawn" mindset


Quite the opposite. I wish younger (<age 40) artists would get rowdy, experimental, and utilize their familiarity of canonical works to break rules and challenge audiences. Or, do something remarkably conventional in an unconventional time.

....but we don't really see much of that do we?


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## Casiquire (Aug 31, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Quite the opposite. I wish younger (<age 40) artists would get rowdy, experimental, and utilize their familiarity of canonical works to break rules and challenge audiences. Or, do something remarkably conventional in an unconventional time.
> 
> ....but we don't really see much of that do we?


Again though, is that due to lack of talent? Or should we be asking other questions, like is that what directors are actually looking for? And does that serve the project at hand? In any given project the answer to one of those is probably no.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 31, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Again though, is that due to lack of talent? Or should we be asking other questions, like is that what directors are actually looking for? And does that serve the project at hand? In any given project the answer to one of those is probably no.


The context of my comment is:

“Right now, where would musical themes fit in a market of "express yourself" _cause de jour _art making_,_ and who under the age of 50 is capable of actually executing a fundamentally good film?”

The issue is systemic throughout all artistic disciplines. The cause of which, I posit is unfamiliarity with the fundamentals of the craft and not knowing the canon. Talent, if defined as a natural ability, is about as useful as oil before the combustion engine was invented, *and is unidentifiable* without a proper artistic effort attempted.

What we functionally call talent, “natural” talent meets craft meets intelligence meets experience meets openness meets work ethic… yeah I do not see anyone young checking all of those boxes. Whereas 100 years ago, there were hundreds. Thousands even.

No serious observer in 2021 believes Hollywood is flush with talent right now. It’s a not-diverse monoculture flush with creators trying to copy Inception, Spiderman, Saw, and Drake’s music from 2008. And how could it be anything but that when the directors have never watched a Hitchcock film and the composers have never sat through a Tchaik 6?


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## Casiquire (Aug 31, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> The context of my comment is:
> 
> “Right now, where would musical themes fit in a market of "express yourself" _cause de jour _art making_,_ and who under the age of 50 is capable of actually executing a fundamentally good film?”
> 
> ...


I still disagree. There's plenty of talent and work ethic out there, but the market is not demanding that type of product. Our disagreement is a chicken-and-egg situation, and my feeling is that if Hollywood can save a buck and get cheaper composer who can fart out something more generic which makes it more accessible to the lowest common denominator, why wouldn't they? Meanwhile we've got Nicholas Britell, Austin Wintory, our own Anne Ketherin Dern, even Ramin Djawadi showing us that there are plenty of young composers with the skill, knowledge, and work ethic to do a traditional thematic score and in many cases creating fresh new art, but that doesn't seem to be what they get asked to do. If there was a big market for what you're looking for, we'd be hearing more of it at the box office. I think your blame is misplaced


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 31, 2021)

Re; Casiq, 

In the interest of keeping things copasetic between users on the forum, I can’t address the central argument here.

However, despite Covid, domestic box office is not necessarily gangbusters compared to the previous decades. Moreover, the new Starwars movies dominate the top grossing list, and uses thematic material written half a century ago. This doesn’t even get into the *cultural impact* of recent film music, which is utterly negligible.

…in 2040 if Disney tries to auction off the music for _Black Panther_, you won’t see Lantern Capital scrambling to acquire those rights. 😂


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## Dewdman42 (Aug 31, 2021)

If you want to talk about markets, capitalism, etc..that is a seperate discussion from the arts. It should come as no shock to anyone that Hollywood has figured out that an undiscerning public will still pay $11 to go to the theater and watch a movie with a mediocre mocked up sample based sound track with EDM bed laid underneath. The public and their appreciation of the arts is not driving this trend...it is Hollywood profiteering, pure and simple.

Artists, true artists, have an obligation to the human race to rise above such things and deliver true art, NOT WITHSTANDING the current profiteering of the day.

Stephen Limbaugh is quite right in his assessment that many forms of true art are falling off the face of the planet due to the ease with which mediocre garbage can be scratched together, thrown up on social media sites, created in minutes, something that used to take days, etc.. This is simply cheap and free mediocre entertainment. My dad used to call our TV the "idiot-box" for a good reason. It, as well as many other forms of software, internet, gaming, and even music making tools that make it so easy, has turned people into non-creatives. People now "experience", they don't create... not like they used to.


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## JohnG (Aug 31, 2021)

I'm not sure what we're arguing about, but if it's "nobody writes nothin' good nowadays," I disagree.

I can hardly think of a score by James Newton Howard that I don't enjoy or that is not at the highest level of craft, if not artistry. Try "King Kong" if you're in any doubt, or "Dave" or maybe "Signs?"

Each one of those has something that is well-crafted and delightful in some way. In the case of "Signs" it feels like a score-from-a-cell, wildly contrasting with King Kong's operatic pathos.

The score for a tv show I like, "Unforgotten" is also thoughtful, sensitive, and quite artistically satisfying (composer is Michael Price). In fact, many TV shows these days have more daring music than that found in "big" movies.

I think there's plenty to enjoy and to admire. Just not necessarily in the noisiest corner.


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## sundrowned (Aug 31, 2021)

JohnG said:


> The score for a tv show I like, "Unforgotten" is also thoughtful, sensitive, and quite artistically satisfying (composer is Michael Price).


Just looked it up. There's quite a bit of info on his website about it, including tracks, scores and a video about the one of the themes. 









 Unforgotten Soundtrack - music by Michael Price & Oh Wonder


Listen to the beautiful soundtrack from Unforgotten, composed by Michael Price, with free sheet music and behind the scenes videos.




www.michaelpricemusic.com


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## mopsiflopsi (Aug 31, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> …it’s like talking cuisine with someone who thinks it’s ok to request parmesan cheese with his linguine and clams. Ya know what, better that person just eat at Olive Garden and not bother us while we pursue excellence lol.


Sorry I had to comment on this because I think it's a truly bizarre opinion, especially for someone who is in pursuit of art. Why would that not be okay? To use your analogy, I think the real problem is when people forget that magic happens between the food and the taste buds, and not on the pages of some society magazine or etiquette school for rich people. 

Why do we need to keep inventing mythologies and gods of this and that to render our own tastes and preferences sanctimonious? And why do we think it's a merit for any art form or artist to lose touch with their audience? On the contrary, is that not an indictment of their lack of inventiveness and creativity, in failing to stay relevant?

Even though my taste in music might be closer to yours than to what you're criticizing, I'd still go visit the olive garden guy for dinner. At least I can be sure the taste he has is his own, and it's sincere. Without that sincerity, there's no art, only pomp and pretense. And who am I to tell anyone they are lesser for enjoying their food to their heart's delight?


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 31, 2021)

Re Mopsi

Right now, a “value” meal from McDonalds is north of $10 in Los Angeles.

For the price of 7 of those meals, you can enjoy a nice meal/experience at Katsuya in the valley. Or, for 16 #5’s large sized with a Dr. Pepper and bbq sauce, hit up Nobu in Malibu.

Is McDonalds (or music equivalent) _really_ what people want all the time? Because Italians dining at Osteria Santo Spirto in Florence don’t seem to be clamoring to install an Olive Garden on the Ponte Vecchio!

Edit: for clarity, people eat at these places for cultural reasons, MAYBE more than they do for economic ones… as other countries do not seem to be starving, yet often enjoy a higher quality culinary experience. There is a similarly in music.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 31, 2021)

JohnG said:


> James Newton Howard that I don't enjoy or that is not at the highest level of craft


Yes! …but what happens when the Jedi are all dead? Where are the younger ones who can build on the traditions?


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## mopsiflopsi (Aug 31, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Is McDonalds (or music equivalent) _really_ what people want all the time? Because Italians dining at Osteria Santo Spirto in Florence don’t seem to be clamoring to install an Olive Garden on the Ponte Vecchio!


You want a real test of what people want all the time? Eliminate the difference in prices, accessibility, status/class-based gate keeping, pomp, and see what happens. It costs the same whether you listen to Shostakovich, JW or HZ on Spotify, and there's no one to impress there with fancy cutlery. Spoiler alert: they are not all equally popular. I know who my pick would be, but I'm not gonna label a whole bunch of people lesser for not having the same taste as I do.


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## mopsiflopsi (Aug 31, 2021)

As for the main thrust of the thread: I think when one does art for commercial purposes, one becomes more an entertainer first and foremost, than artist. And an entertainer's value is measured in their ability to, indeed, entertain an audience. Which also implies that entertainment does not have a value independent of the audience that is enjoying it. 

Add to that the fact that as composers working in film, games, etc, you are not even the main event of said entertainment. You certainly add a lot to it, but you are there to support the other art/entertainment form. So the original question of the thread is a bit like asking why sculptors don't put as many gargoyles in places of worship like they used to. 1) It's not their call, 2) It was never about the gargoyles. And it doesn't mean the art form has gone to shit if nobody remembers how to make a gargoyle.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 31, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> You want a real test of what people want all the time? Eliminate the difference in prices, accessibility, status/class-based gate keeping, pomp, and see what happens. It costs the same whether you listen to Shostakovich, JW or HZ on Spotify, and there's no one to impress there with fancy cutlery. Spoiler alert: they are not all equally popular. I know who my pick would be, but I'm not gonna label a whole bunch of people lesser for not having the same taste as I do.


I'm not sure I understand.... you are saying that Hans Zimmer is more popular on Spotify, and must be more popular because filmmakers and budding composers listen to Spotify than other platforms? Thus it makes sense as to why there isn't melody more frequently in movies like Black Widow?



mopsiflopsi said:


> fact that as composers working in film, games, etc, you are not even the main event of said entertainment.


That depends on the moment in the film. Often music is in the front seat. It is the case pretty often in great movies. There have been films that are made a lot worse because the score was bad.

Go watch those Hollywood Reporter composer round tables. You should familiarize yourself with the consensus on music "serving" vs being an integral part to a composite art form.


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## Casiquire (Aug 31, 2021)

I'm not arguing that we're seeing fewer of the kind of art you're all referring to. I'm disagreeing with the notion that it has anything to do with talent, knowledge, or work ethic on the part of composers.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 31, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not arguing that we're seeing fewer of the kind of art you're all referring to. I'm disagreeing with the notion that it has anything to do with talent, knowledge, or work ethic on the part of composers.



John Williams was able to work in a fugue into _Jaws _that elevated the story of a horror/thriller. Do you really _really_ believe that some of the other younger names mentioned in this thread could possibly pull off such a thing?

Even then, do you think a plurality of young directors could even define what a fugue is? Spielberg could. Spielberg played the 2nd clarinet in a small part of the Jaws soundtrack.


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## Casiquire (Aug 31, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> John Williams was able to work in a fugue into _Jaws _that elevated the story of a horror/thriller. Do you really _really_ believe that some of the other younger names mentioned in this thread could possibly pull off such a thing?
> 
> Even then, do you think a plurality of young directors could even define what a fugue is? Spielberg could. Spielberg played the 2nd clarinet in a small part of the Jaws soundtrack.


Are we setting the bar at John Williams now? Doesn't seem like a reasonable place to set it, imo, given that he's the absolute best of the best at the style of writing we're talking about that we've *ever* seen.

And I've heard fantastic thematic development from Wintory in particular. But this whole conversation strikes me as someone setting an arbitrary mark, saying "THIS and only this is what quality is, and the fact that we're not seeing more of this is due to the fact that them ruddy kids are so stupid nowadays." The amount of assumption and begging the question bundled into that mindset is too much for my taste. 

As styles changed, composers adapted. It's not a case of composers leading the changing market because they're just not good enough. Could John Williams have created the soundscape of Interstellar? I don't think so. The director had a need and found someone who filled it.


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## Casiquire (Aug 31, 2021)

mopsiflopsi said:


> As for the main thrust of the thread: I think when one does art for commercial purposes, one becomes more an entertainer first and foremost, than artist. And an entertainer's value is measured in their ability to, indeed, entertain an audience. Which also implies that entertainment does not have a value independent of the audience that is enjoying it.
> 
> Add to that the fact that as composers working in film, games, etc, you are not even the main event of said entertainment. You certainly add a lot to it, but you are there to support the other art/entertainment form. So the original question of the thread is a bit like asking why sculptors don't put as many gargoyles in places of worship like they used to. 1) It's not their call, 2) It was never about the gargoyles. And it doesn't mean the art form has gone to shit if nobody remembers how to make a gargoyle.


I totally agree with this. 

Meanwhile given that John Williams himself was pushing forty when he started getting nominations and was already into his forties when he started to really get widespread exposure, what we're ACTUALLY being asked to provide examples of are composers between 40-50 who have beat the best we've seen since the invention of the camera while working in a market that provides very little room for exactly that kind of writing. It's nonsensical.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 31, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Are we setting the bar at John Williams now?


No, but 50 years ago there were hundreds of composers in and around Hollywood who could write a fugue. I doubt that is the case today.


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## Casiquire (Aug 31, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> No, but 50 years ago there were hundreds of composers in and around Hollywood who could write a fugue. I doubt that is the case today.


That's still not my point. My point is about the why, not about the what. There are thousands of composers leaving conservatories around the world who are more than capable of writing fugues. Studios don't want them. That's my point.


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## mopsiflopsi (Aug 31, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> I'm not sure I understand....


You asked "Is McDonalds (or music equivalent) _really_ what people want all the time?" I presented a quantitative data point to answer your question.



Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Go watch those Hollywood Reporter composer round tables. You should familiarize yourself with the consensus on music "serving" vs being an integral part to a composite art form.


I work as a creative lead in a composite art form/entertainment industry. I'll take my own opinion on that, but thanks for telling me what I should do.



Stephen Limbaugh said:


> John Williams was able to work in a fugue into _Jaws _that elevated the story of a horror/thriller. Do you really _really_ believe that some of the other younger names mentioned in this thread could possibly pull off such a thing?


Now I suspect my answer to this will not resonate with you, as you appear to be very strongly opinionated. But I'll offer my take on it for other people to judge:

I make games for a living. Every project I ship has a very direct impact on my career and on my finances. This is in addition to a project having tremendous value to me just for creative and sentimental reasons. I am small potatoes compared to people in film and other media, but the general experience is the same: our projects are our children. They are precious. There is a f**king lot at stake and I lose sleep over it every night. Now if I'm talking to you as a composer to bring on board, and I don't care if you are JW or whoever, if I get the whiff that you're putting your own creative whims and glory before what is best for my child, I will politely tell you what you can do with your fugue and leave the meeting. I'll bet anything that JW pulled it off because Spielberg trusted him to do his thing and trusted that he'd use his creative judgement to do what was best for the project, rather than, you know, what the consensus was at the time in conservatory circles. Earning that trust means knowing your place and going with what the director/movie/game needs at that time. That's the real career defining skill he pulled off.



Casiquire said:


> That's still not my point. My point is about the why, not about the what. There are thousands of composers leaving conservatories around the world who are more than capable of writing fugues. Studios don't want them. That's my point.


Exactly.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Aug 31, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> That's still not my point. My point is about the why, not about the what. There are thousands of composers leaving conservatories around the world who are more than capable of writing fugues. Studios don't want them. That's my point.


Not studios. Directors. They want “hot”or worse (evidence of my thesis here), they don’t know what they want. But also, having been to a conservatory, this is absolutely not true. Undergrads leave having never heard Beethoven’s 6th symphony. (True story!). More importantly, writing a fugue and being able to write a fugue that works as a score are different skills that have both become more rare over time.



mopsiflopsi said:


> quantitative data point to answer your question.


Spotify is not remotely quantitative in any meaningful sense. It’s a single streaming service. How many people liked Rctec’s last VI-C post is a data point? Also as about as relevant as Spotify streams.


mopsiflopsi said:


> I am small potatoes compared to people in film and other media, but the general experience is the same: our projects are our children. They are precious.


Consideration: This mindset is a problem. (Not meant to be combative, but something to think about.) But as an Olive Garden apologist, I would never stop ya from enjoying the process of tossing some parmesan cheese on your clams. 😂🤙🏻 But if you find yourself in Sorrento and some Italian strangles you from behind over the insult, don’t be surprised!

Famous director started out on a project that Hans scored. Was a gem of a guy. Sky was the limit. Over time he turned ultra ultra paranoid. “L” will never ever work with him again because of the “my baby” mindset. At one point there was a tiff over a later film’s score that is now considered legendary — Hans basically put a full court press to pressure the director into accepting. That score will outlast “the baby.”

Funny story, the assistant of that famous director at the time hated me (at the time) cause my team whipped her team’s butt at a beerpong tournament at El Guapo. True story!


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## Nico5 (Aug 31, 2021)

gohrev said:


> I miss melodies in today's movie soundtracks.


arguably, not only an issue in soundtracks, but in popular music, too -- I blame the continual extension of copyright lengths in large part for that one. It's just too easy to run afoul of someone else's copyrighted melody these days, so effectively creating music with few copyrightable (and therefore potentially infringing) melodies is legally much safer.
p.s. I'm not against copyrights, but I believe when they are too long in duration they are as damaging to society as no copyright (or too short). Too short and too long: Both are getting in the way of continued evolution.


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## mopsiflopsi (Aug 31, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Spotify is not remotely quantitative in any meaningful sense. It’s a single streaming service. How many people liked Rctec’s last VI-C post is a data point? Also as about as relevant as Spotify streams.


Show me another data set with a sample size in millions countering that and we'll talk. Also that's a very generously stuffed straw man there. Nobody said anything about Rctec's last post.



Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Famous director started out on a project that Hans scored.


Sorry you'll have to be more explicit with the name dropping, this is going right over my head. And, my god man, beerpong?! Is that not what the peasants play when they're short of horses to play polo? 

In any case, I've said what I wanted to say and we probably won't reach consensus on this. Which is cool.


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## Casiquire (Sep 1, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Not studios. Directors. They want “hot”or worse (evidence of my thesis here), they don’t know what they want. But also, having been to a conservatory, this is absolutely not true. Undergrads leave having never heard Beethoven’s 6th symphony. (True story!). More importantly, writing a fugue and being able to write a fugue that works as a score are different skills that have both become more rare over time.
> 
> 
> Spotify is not remotely quantitative in any meaningful sense. It’s a single streaming service. How many people liked Rctec’s last VI-C post is a data point? Also as about as relevant as Spotify streams.
> ...


Every post of yours is bundled with assumptions. "I know people who left conservatory not knowing Beethoven's 6th, therefore nobody graduating any school today knows how to write a fugue"


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## Wally Garten (Sep 1, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Quite the opposite. I wish younger (<age 40) artists would get rowdy, experimental, and utilize their familiarity of canonical works to break rules and challenge audiences. Or, do something remarkably conventional in an unconventional time.
> 
> ....but we don't really see much of that do we?


Do you feel you're doing that in your own work? I don't mean that snarkily, I'm just curious. If so, do you have any examples we could listen to? A concrete example might be edifying.


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## Wally Garten (Sep 1, 2021)

Also, I can’t believe we’re this far into this thread and nobody has linked the definitive word on the matter:


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Sep 1, 2021)

Wally Garten said:


> Do you feel you're doing that in your own work? I don't mean that snarkily, I'm just curious. If so, do you have any examples we could listen to? A concrete example might be edifying.



Sure! 🤠 

Three examples if you have time. 

This first example sports a strict adherence to classic voice leading (no parallel 5ths, etc). Orchestration is interesting, relatively, in that there are many things borrowed from the greats (Mahler, etc) but at the same time do a number of things they would never do. It is rife with mixed meter, and expands the text by adding a stanza from the poem that is never sung. The melody is changed *a lot*. Normally when someone makes big changes to the _Star-Spangled Banner_, it is often met with derision over it not servicing an expectation of elevating patriotism. This however threaded the needle and was well-received by the most skeptical of listeners. Seriously, you start to "ad lib" or changing the melody of the national anthem and certain people get pissed. They didn't in this case.






This is an older piece performed by Valentina Lisitsa, but incorporates the melodic/harmonic proclivities of early/mid 2000s Top40 artists, treating them with 19th century techniques. The challenge here is primarily to the midwit/elite post-moderns in the classical music world, who have an aversion to anything considered "derivative."





Lastly, another arrangement. I'm not familiar with anything in the piano literature similar to the middle section starting at bar 105. It's conventional, but not easy to play.


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## Wally Garten (Sep 3, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Sure! 🤠
> 
> Three examples if you have time.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Stephen. Lovely pieces. I am glad you're finding opportunities to try unusual things.

Personally, I think there are lots of musicians out there doing challenging work. But there's a balance to be struck between "challenging" and "enjoyable for any more than a tiny minority." I note, for example, that Focus wrote a fugue. But they are known for "Hocus Pocus." You can't fight people on what they want to listen to (apparently it's rock yodeling!), even if you think you're right and they're wrong. 

Nowhere is that more true than when you are making music for someone else's media. Especially in a brutally competitive marketplace, I can't really fault anyone for trying to do what the client wants. (Although my spouse, who was a Professional Hollywood Screenwriter(tm) for a while, likes to say that producers don't actually know what they want, and it's your job to tell them -- confidently.)

----------------------

Anyway... to get back to poor OP's actual question: I love strong themes. But I don't know that every character needs one individually. Does Han Solo have a theme? If he does, I don't remember it. On the other hand, Darth Vader seems indelibly identified with the Imperial March. So, as with many things, I think it probably comes down to, "If it works...." (As a practical matter, I suspect that means -- if writing character themes helps you get your best work out, do it. Otherwise, it probably doesn't make sense to force it.)


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## mscp (Sep 4, 2021)

Lassi Tani said:


> Why would someone write character themes today?


Please elaborate. I'm very curious as to why you asked this question. 



Lassi Tani said:


> Why have many modern composers abandoned themes?


Have they? I believe I heard one in "The Queen's Gambit". It's been a while since I finished watching it, but I'm almost positive Carlos wrote one for the protagonist. Best recent drama, in my opinion. If you haven't watched it, you're in for a treat.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 4, 2021)

mscp said:


> Please elaborate. I'm very curious as to why you asked this question.
> 
> 
> Have they? I believe I heard one in "The Queen's Gambit". It's been a while since I finished watching it, but I'm almost positive Carlos wrote one for the protagonist. Best recent drama, in my opinion. If you haven't watched it, you're in for a treat.


I'm studying the subject, and very interested to hear thoughts about why classical cinema style scoring has diminished.

Actually after reading all the posts, and doing some studying, there are themes everywhere but they are different. Such as Joker's motif in Dark Knight. I havent watched Queen's Gambit yet, it's on my list. I have a hunch though that TV and games still use memorable, sometimes prominent, maybe a bit 'old school' style of themes.


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