# Native Instruments new solo violin



## bosone (Jun 25, 2020)

These seems outstanding!









STRADIVARI VIOLIN


The distinctive sound of a rare, one-of-a-kind instrument from the world’s most renowned violin maker, Antonio Stradivari. Extensive performance features, 20 articulations with up to three legato transitions each, and multiple mic options deliver nuanced, expressive parts for modern productions.




www.native-instruments.com


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## Hoxo (Jun 25, 2020)

This has me intrigued for sure. Would like to see how it compares to something like Joshua Bell Violin with both price and playability.

I mostly find myself using the SWAM Violin these days but my wallet probably wont be safe for long.


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## Hoxo (Jun 25, 2020)

Spotted this at the end of the trailer. It's currently unlisted.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 25, 2020)

Hoxo said:


> This has me intrigued for sure. Would like to see how it compares to something like Joshua Bell Violin with both price and playability.
> 
> I mostly find myself using the SWAM Violin these days but my wallet probably wont be safe for long.


And also compared to 8dio’s Deep Solo Violin that will see a release this saturday!


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## BezO (Jun 25, 2020)

Nice! As someone that relies heavily on Komplete Kontrol, I'm looking forward to this. Hopefully they flesh out the quartet.


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## ShidoStrife (Jun 25, 2020)

Seems to be the year of solo violin!
Looking forward to this and the one from 8dio. Very excited 😃


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## ism (Jun 25, 2020)

Very nice. I don't hear anything that exceeds the Joshua Bell. But another timbre of violin is always a good thing.


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## rottoy (Jun 25, 2020)

There are some peculiar things going on between 6:49-55.

The sound goes from close with a strange synthy vibrato, to a more roomy sound when the legato transitions are playing.


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## filipjonathan (Jun 25, 2020)

BezO said:


> Hopefully they flesh out the quartet.


BEFORE Komplete 13 comes out 😅


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## davidson (Jun 25, 2020)

BezO said:


> Nice! As someone that relies heavily on Komplete Kontrol, I'm looking forward to this. Hopefully they flesh out the quartet.



Quartet coming Autumn according to their instagram.


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## AllanH (Jun 25, 2020)

That sounds rather impressive. However, to me it sounded like there was a bit of "external" Reverb on some part of the demo. I'm looking forward to the details.


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## BezO (Jun 25, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> BEFORE Komplete 13 comes out 😅





davidson said:


> Quartet coming Autumn according to their instagram.


Sweet! Thanks.

Now, will that be in time to be included in 13U/CE?


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## CT (Jun 25, 2020)

rottoy said:


> There are some peculiar things going on between 6:49-55.
> 
> The sound goes from close with a strange synthy vibrato, to a more roomy sound when the legato transitions are playing.



Yeah, I can hear it at a few other moments too. There's something not quite right about the vibrato in this. Too bad, because otherwise it's pretty impressive.


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## Batrawi (Jun 25, 2020)

Something sounds wrong when going up with the vibrato or the dynamic; the tone turns into an electric violin... 
Overall sounds like another Emotional violin to me.


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## filipjonathan (Jun 25, 2020)

BezO said:


> Now, will that be in time to be included in 13U/CE?


Gosh, I sure hope so!


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## filipjonathan (Jun 25, 2020)

But that Variations on Paganini demo song sounds INCREDIBLE! Those runs! 😍


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## filipjonathan (Jun 25, 2020)

How much do you guys think this will be? Definitely over $100 just hope it's not over $200.


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## Hoxo (Jun 25, 2020)

I'm thinking maybe $149


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## Michael Stibor (Jun 25, 2020)

Sounds good. Though the market is flooded with different solo violin libraries. I’d personally prefer solo violas or cellos.


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## Diablo IV (Jun 25, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> But that Variations on Paganini demo song sounds INCREDIBLE! Those runs! 😍



I loved this demo too.
I hope the reverb isn't baked in.
This instrument made me realize there is no perfect violin library, nevertheless this one might become my favorite, and possibly motivate me to compose more for violin and then ask a real player to record it for me.


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## Diablo IV (Jun 25, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> How much do you guys think this will be? Definitely over $100 just hope it's not over $200.



I think we all can agree it will be $149


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## Anders Wall (Jun 25, 2020)

Love this 

You can read more about the backstory here:









To Save the Sound of a Stradivarius, a Whole City Must Keep Quiet (Published 2019)


A team in Cremona, Italy, wants to preserve every note from the world’s finest instruments before they become too fragile to play. But perfect recordings need silence. Lots of it.




www.nytimes.com





Best,

Anders


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## Serge Pavkin (Jun 25, 2020)

Diablo IV said:


> I think we all can agree it will be $149



$149 with particles engine, $99 without)


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## Peter Williams (Jun 25, 2020)

I believe that I hear some synthy sounding crossfades on some of the sustains, but this is a nice instrument. It sounds similar to Emotional Violin, which I use and have only scratched the surface with. I like the Bell violin also, it has a sweeping, heroic character that the competitors haven't duplicated. I agree that we need a really good viola to join this growing family of solo instruments.


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## Peter Williams (Jun 25, 2020)

Sergii Pavkin said:


> $149 with particles engine, $99 without)


No rosin, no particles


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## Batrawi (Jun 25, 2020)

Diablo IV said:


> I think we all can agree it will be $149



Just forget about the freakin' violin... when is your release date?!


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## MartinH. (Jun 25, 2020)

Oh sweet! Hope they'll eventually make a complete quartet and put it into komplete.


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## filipjonathan (Jun 25, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Oh sweet! Hope they'll eventually make a complete quartet and put it into komplete.


They will in the fall.


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## stfciu (Jun 25, 2020)

This actually sounds stunning. I did not expected something like this from e-instruments.

However the session horns are top notch.


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## reutunes (Jun 25, 2020)

I did the video walkthrough for this violin. I can confirm, no external reverb from 2:25 onwards - just a mixture of the 3 mic positions.


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## rottoy (Jun 25, 2020)

reutunes said:


> I did the video walkthrough for this violin. I can confirm, no external reverb from 2:25 onwards - just a mixture of the 3 mic positions.


Your dulcet tones are unmistakable.


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## José Herring (Jun 25, 2020)

Dude! That Paganini demo is insane!!!!! I wonder how long it took to program? Wonder how playable this instrument is? So many questions.

Realistically the tone of the instrument isn't my favorite for violin. Dry and scratchy sounding. But, I could probably deal with it with some decent EQ.


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## Robert_G (Jun 25, 2020)

Michael Stibor said:


> Sounds good. Though the market is flooded with different solo violin libraries. I’d personally prefer solo violas or cellos.



Except there are only 2 good ones. Emotional Violin and Joshua Bell. The rest are inferior IMO.


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## Vangance (Jun 25, 2020)

Robert_G said:


> Except there are only 2 good ones. Emotional Violin and Joshua Bell. The rest are inferior IMO.


Agreed. 
Sounded weak, scratchy, no sonority or sustained warmth, character nor usability for long sustains. 
The demo doesn't linger on the longs and sustains capabilities, I wonder why!!! 
Emotional violin is far superior in that space. Disappointing...


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 25, 2020)

The Times article says they sampled two violins, a viola and a cello in Cremona. 

My feeling is that this quartet won't be included in Komplete 13 Ultimate when it comes out in the fall. It would be really nice if they included them, but I don't think they will. 

It's more likely the quartet will be an extra purchase that coincides with the introduction of KU13, like the Symphony series did with Komplete 11. You'd have to pay extra to get it.

But it's possible that an LE version of the Cremona strings could be included with Komplete 13 Ultimate. Like Symphony Essentials. 

It would be awesome if these libraries were included with KU13. We can dream, but I'm skeptical about whether it will happen. :emoji_frog:


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## emilio_n (Jun 25, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> The Times article says they sampled two violins, a viola and a cello in Cremona.
> 
> My feeling is that this quartet won't be included in Komplete 13 Ultimate when it comes out in the fall. It would be really nice if they included them, but I don't think they will.
> 
> ...


Maybe they keep this for Komplete Collector Edition if they release this year. 
That could be nice and will make me happier with mu bought of K12 CE last year


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## TomislavEP (Jun 26, 2020)

Overall, I like what I'm hearing and seeing here. I love all Kontakt instruments from NI, especially when it comes to playability, control, and intuitiveness. I'll keep this on my radar should I need a more lyrical and expressive virtual violin in the future than some indie ones I already have. I'm wondering will there be some kind of deal on this for Komplete owners.


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## rudi (Jun 26, 2020)

The "making of" video lists the four instruments that will make up the "Cremona Quartet" at:



Violin Stradivari: Vesuvius
Violin Guarneri: Prince Doria
Viola Amati: Stauffer
Cello Stradivari: Stauffer


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## Mornats (Jun 26, 2020)

Bring on the cello


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## rudi (Jun 26, 2020)

rottoy said:


> There are some peculiar things going on between 6:49-55.
> 
> The sound goes from close with a strange synthy vibrato, to a more roomy sound when the legato transitions are playing.


The walkthrough video mentions that the vibrato is generated and re-applied onto the sound:


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## Tfis (Jun 26, 2020)

20 articulations and only 10 keyswitches...
They still don't get it.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 26, 2020)

Tfis said:


> 20 articulations and only 10 keyswitches...
> They still don't get it.


One impression I did get from the walkthrough was: “oh man, I’m already tired just by WATCHING all the KS buttons in the UI”.... agreed....


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## Paul Jelfs (Jun 26, 2020)

Hmmm . Some Nice things here that haven't been really seen much- love the fingering idea, should be with every solo String library! The shorts sound really good, but i am not sold on the legato / longs . Going stick with Bohemian Violin and CineSolo Strings. 

But still need a KILLER Viola solo instrument - hopefully Vir Harmonic can deliver later this year.


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## CatOrchestra (Jun 26, 2020)

Batrawi said:


> Just forget about the freakin' violin... when is your release date?!



Out Monday June 29th, according to their instagram post


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## doctoremmet (Jun 26, 2020)

CatOrchestra said:


> Out Monday June 29th, according to their instagram post



Ok, so who is going to get both this one AND the 8dio Studio Quartet Deep Violin (out tomorrow) and do a full comparison / shoot-out and have it posted by tuesday? 

Paging @Cory Pelizzari @ChrisSiuMusic


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## MartinH. (Jun 26, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> The Times article says they sampled two violins, a viola and a cello in Cremona.
> 
> My feeling is that this quartet won't be included in Komplete 13 Ultimate when it comes out in the fall. It would be really nice if they included them, but I don't think they will.
> 
> ...



I was thinking more about KU14, maybe CE, if they keep that as a new third tier.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 26, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I was thinking more about KU14, maybe CE, if they keep that as a new third tier.


Just the Stradivari name and the whole back story makes it feel more exclusive, right?


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jun 26, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Ok, so who is going to get both this one AND the 8dio Studio Quartet Deep Violin (out tomorrow) and do a full comparison / shoot-out and have it posted by tuesday?
> 
> Paging @Cory Pelizzari @ChrisSiuMusic


Oh jeez haha


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 26, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I was thinking more about KU14, maybe CE, if they keep that as a new third tier.


If they don't come out until _after_ KU13 is released, then sure--they may be included in KU14. But why would they tease the Strad in June for an October/November release? No, I think this library will come out this summer, long before KU13. Alone it would normally be included.

But... if there is going to be a quartet, then that sounds like a second tier product to me, and I doubt they will throw it in for free for current owners of CE. We shall see. 

This isn't a bad upgrade without it. KU13 will include Noire, two excellent strummed acoustic libraries, Mallet Flux, Straylight, Pharlight, Mysteria... and I am hoping for a new Discovery series.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 26, 2020)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Oh jeez haha


Only joking Christopher. I’ll wait patiently for YOUR next review choices. And I sincerely wish you a very nice and relaxed weekend.

Also, I hear that @Cory Pelizzari has been quite ill last week, so I wish him well, get better soon and definitely do NOT buy let alone review new instruments for a while & stay healthy.


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## Cory Pelizzari (Jun 26, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Also, I hear that @Cory Pelizzari has been quite ill last week, so I wish him well, get better soon and definitely do NOT buy let alone review new instruments for a while & stay healthy.


I'll try to unsee that link to the product page.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 26, 2020)

Cory Pelizzari said:


> I'll try to unsee that link to the product page.


It was all a hoax Cory. Just to lure you in here and make you smile


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## Peter Williams (Jun 26, 2020)

The most interesting thing to me about the Stradivarius made violin is its volume and its projection. It does not have the gentlest, purest (whatever that means) tone. It can fill a concert hall like no other, so it is coveted by every concert soloist. That whole idea is a bit moot with en electronic instrument. The player is the source of the basic elements of the sound quality. I used to play an amplified fiddle that a friend fished out of a garbage can, and it remains my favorite. I used good strings, a fine bow and a dark voiced pickup when I performed. The only limiting factor was me.


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## rottoy (Jun 26, 2020)

rudi said:


> The walkthrough video mentions that the vibrato is generated and re-applied onto the sound:



Ah, that explains why I found it a bit iffy. It sounds better than other synthetic vibrato solutions I've heard, but still no cigar.


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## paulmatthew (Jun 26, 2020)

ShidoStrife said:


> Seems to be the year of solo violin!
> Looking forward to this and the one from 8dio. Very excited 😃


Considering the state of the world among the Coronavirus epidemic, this is one of the only viable choices for recording sample libraries at the moment. I expect we'll be seeing a lot of pianos, guitars, solo voices , synth driven libraries, and other solo instruments over the next year.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 26, 2020)

poetd said:


> Komplete Ultimate Collectors Edition Ultimate Edition?



*Kompletely Komplete Ultimate Kollectors All-Enkompassing Edition 13*

For those who absolutely must have it all*​
*until we release another product in a few weeks, at which point you will be inKomplete again if you don't buy it.


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## Rob Elliott (Jun 26, 2020)

Hmmmm. While the shorts are to die for....the longs (generally) are not emotionally moving me (they are almost too 'clinical'). Having said that - I'll probably pick this up as options for solo violins is always good.


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## Wolf68 (Jun 26, 2020)

sounds very good indeed, also in connection with this room ambience and the collection of the other historical top notch instruments. I wonder if they were really able to solve that phasing issue as it is mentioned in the video. a great collection. we live in exciting times.


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## BezO (Jun 26, 2020)

Sounds good. I'm looking forward to the quartet, but wish they included a bass.


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## LamaRose (Jun 26, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Yeah, I can hear it at a few other moments too. There's something not quite right about the vibrato in this. Too bad, because otherwise it's pretty impressive.



The tonal shift in vibrato is pretty prominent to my ears; and as @rottoy mentioned, the _space_ transitions from room to close mic as said vibrato intensifies. Not a deal breaker if you're writing for live players. Maybe this can be remedied a bit before release.


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## BradHoyt (Jun 26, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> And also compared to 8dio’s Deep Solo Violin that will see a release this saturday!


Just from hearing the demos, I think the Joshua Bell violin and this new NI Violin sound much more authentic than the 8Dio violin.


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## MrCambiata (Jun 26, 2020)

Sounds very good to me and the vibrato is innovative. I already have emotional violin and bohemian violin. Tried the emotional on a track but it didn't feel right for the certain melody or required a lot of work. I ended up using bohemian violin which did the job. I guess it's always good to have more than one option.


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## saboo (Jun 26, 2020)

It's great to have options, although there isn't much here that Joshua Bell Violin can't do, as others previously have mentioned. Their real selling point is gonna be the quartet, having 4 instruments sampled in the same way.


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2020)

This does sound very nice, but, honestly, now that I've been using the Sample Modeling Solo & Ensembles Strings solo violin, I can't think of anything sounding better.


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## saboo (Jun 26, 2020)

robgb said:


> This does sound very nice, but, honestly, now that I've been using the Sample Modeling Solo & Ensembles Strings solo violin, I can't think of anything sounding better.


Is the SWAM Violin really that good? I recall hearing a demo and thinking it sounded absolute garbage, so screechy and unrealistic. I thought any sample-based library could beat it by a mile. Has it really gotten realistic?


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## robgb (Jun 26, 2020)

saboo said:


> Is the SWAM Violin really that good? I recall hearing a demo and thinking it sounded absolute garbage, so screechy and unrealistic. I thought any sample-based library could beat it by a mile. Has it really gotten realistic?


I'm not talking about the SWAM violin. I'm talking about the Sample Modeling violin. SWAM is the brainchild of Audio Modeling, not Sample Modeling. Sample Modeling uses samples+modeling+artificial intelligence to create Kontakt instruments.

SWAM is a good violin in terms of playability, but Sample Modeling beats it in terms of tone, with playability well beyond other Kontakt libraries.

Check out my review of the SM library in the link below my signature.


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## Iondot (Jun 26, 2020)

I'm disappointed. Not by the sound, or the product, but by what I foolishly believed would be an effort for the public good. A year and a half ago, I heard about this project, which was in the news as an effort to preserve the sound of the Stradivarius, not to create a Native Instrument's product. I was under the impression (or perhaps delusion) that the Museo del Violino Antonio Stradivari would be cataloging, archiving and making these sounds (not the instrument) available to the public. I kept checking back, but the sound archive never turned up.

But here it is, as a commercial product. While this may seem like no big deal, an entire town was asked to participate in this preservation. This could have been something to benefit music students in perpetuity, and instead, it has been turned into just another product, for sale, like pair of sneakers or a cinnamon bun — and one that will eventually be rendered unusable in time as DRM controls lock future generations out with long forgotten formats tied to serial numbers and licenses of people who will one day be dead.

I have strong feelings about copyright and it's uses and protections, but also it's abuses and manipulations. I can't help but be disappointed.


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## LamaRose (Jun 26, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Ok, so who is going to get both this one AND the 8dio Studio Quartet Deep Violin (out tomorrow) and do a full comparison / shoot-out and have it posted by tuesday?



Is there a Doctor's salary in the house!?


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## Przemek K. (Jun 27, 2020)

josejherring said:


> Dude! That Paganini demo is insane!!!!! I wonder how long it took to program? Wonder how playable this instrument is? So many questions.
> 
> Realistically the tone of the instrument isn't my favorite for violin. Dry and scratchy sounding. But, I could probably deal with it with some decent EQ.



Thanks for the nice compliment I did several revisions of the mockup mostly because at the time when I started working on it , the instrument was still in beta and I also got new versions in between with lots of improvements. I can write more about the process on how I did the mockup later today. All I can say for now it's incredibly playable. 

Regarding sound. I did use only the close mic position since the reference of the Paganini piece was also on the strong/scratch side. But if you dial in the mid mic it gets softer in sound.

So, till later then.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 27, 2020)

LamaRose said:


> Is there a Doctor's salary in the house!?


Definitely not. My first name’s Temme and after seeing 1985’s Back To The Future people starting calling me that. No doctor’s salary here I’m afraid


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## CatOrchestra (Jun 27, 2020)

Iondot said:


> I'm disappointed. Not by the sound, or the product, but by what I foolishly believed would be an effort for the public good [...].




From that article, it was Audiozone that contacted the museum, not the museum that sought help in recording the violin. I think NI stated they were contacted by the museum?

I wonder if there will be a public domain release of the audio recordings after a certain period of time?


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## doctoremmet (Jun 27, 2020)

CatOrchestra said:


> From that article, it was Audiozone that contacted the museum, not the museum that sought help in recording the violin. I think NI stated they were contacted by the museum?
> 
> I wonder if there will be a public domain release of the audio recordings after a certain period of time?


One would suspect there are different audio repositories out there, with all 32 mic positions, e.g. for academic and educational use? Maybe they licensed it to NI to be able to actually fund a project of this magnitude?


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## stfciu (Jun 27, 2020)

Iondot said:


> I'm disappointed. Not by the sound, or the product, but by what I foolishly believed would be an effort for the public good. A year and a half ago, I heard about this project, which was in the news as an effort to preserve the sound of the Stradivarius, not to create a Native Instrument's product. I was under the impression (or perhaps delusion) that the Museo del Violino Antonio Stradivari would be cataloging, archiving and making these sounds (not the instrument) available to the public. I kept checking back, but the sound archive never turned up.
> 
> But here it is, as a commercial product. While this may seem like no big deal, an entire town was asked to participate in this preservation. This could have been something to benefit music students in perpetuity, and instead, it has been turned into just another product, for sale, like pair of sneakers or a cinnamon bun — and one that will eventually be rendered unusable in time as DRM controls lock future generations out with long forgotten formats tied to serial numbers and licenses of people who will one day be dead.
> 
> I have strong feelings about copyright and it's uses and protections, but also it's abuses and manipulations. I can't help but be disappointed.



I don't see that much problem taken that museum was somewhere beneficial in the project and that will help them directly.


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## paoling (Jun 27, 2020)

Iondot said:


> I'm disappointed. Not by the sound, or the product, but by what I foolishly believed would be an effort for the public good. A year and a half ago, I heard about this project, which was in the news as an effort to preserve the sound of the Stradivarius, not to create a Native Instrument's product. I was under the impression (or perhaps delusion) that the Museo del Violino Antonio Stradivari would be cataloging, archiving and making these sounds (not the instrument) available to the public. I kept checking back, but the sound archive never turned up.
> 
> But here it is, as a commercial product. While this may seem like no big deal, an entire town was asked to participate in this preservation. This could have been something to benefit music students in perpetuity, and instead, it has been turned into just another product, for sale, like pair of sneakers or a cinnamon bun — and one that will eventually be rendered unusable in time as DRM controls lock future generations out with long forgotten formats tied to serial numbers and licenses of people who will one day be dead.
> 
> I have strong feelings about copyright and it's uses and protections, but also it's abuses and manipulations. I can't help but be disappointed.




You pretty much summarized my thoughts. That's why, as an italian citizen and owner of a company who operates in the very same area since a lot of time, I'd like to know what is the benefit of this whole commercial operation for the Cremona city and the Museo of the Violino. They stopped the traffic in a part of the city, they had an incredible amount of press (I don't remember the same media coverage for Embertone Joshua Bell which seems superior in any way and also is a Stradivari!), they told a fake story about the violins that will be destroyed by the time.

So if they say: X amount will be given to the museum for renovation/restoring projects, I'll be happy. Otherwise, knowing how my country operates (I've more faith in how Germany handles this kind of public/private projects) I'll be always doubtful that this is a completely transparent operation at the benefit of the city of Cremona, their inhabitants and its history.

By the way: these instruments are not going anywere, if they are correctly maintaned as they are doing, they will outlive any library that's on the market today.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 27, 2020)

paoling said:


> Otherwise, knowing how my country operates (I've more faith in how Germany handles this kind of public/private projects) I'll be always doubtful that this is a completely transparent operation at the benefit of the city of Cremona, their inhabitants and its history.


So merely a vanity project for publicity reasons and to monetize some historical instruments and that’s it? Yes I can see that would be a shame... I guess I may have looked at this from a more naive perspective...


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## paoling (Jun 27, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> So merely a vanity project for publicity reasons and to monetize some historical instruments and that’s it? Yes I can see that would be a shame... I guess I may have looked at this from a more naive perspective...


We don't know what the future holds. Maybe they are going to donate half of the profits to the Museo of the Violino, or maybe they are investing into acquiring more instruments to converve and mantain. Who knows? 

If there's a public plan to use the earned money for something, it would be wise to say it right now, not only because it is good marketing, but also because the citizens of Cremona may be wondering what was the real point of this whole project.


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## Iondot (Jun 27, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> So merely a vanity project for publicity reasons and to monetize some historical instruments and that’s it? Yes I can see that would be a shame... I guess I may have looked at this from a more naive perspective...


I don't imagine it was a vanity project — the museum's dedication and mission seem clear. The biggest issue is that locking preservationist data (the sound) into a proprietary, rights-managed system both discourages broad study and has long term implications for the ability of future generations to access that data — especially when it has been telegraphed to the public that this is for the public good, and was made with the public's assistance. 

If the museum, and the musicians benefit financially from the sale of this product, which they may, that would, at least, ameliorate the sting and should be a clear part of marketing.


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## muk (Jun 27, 2020)

If the project really was about preserving the sound of this instrument, the last thing in the world you would want to do was meddling with the sound of the recording by phase aligning, adding fake vibrato, normalizing, adjusting pitch etc. etc. As Paolo wrote, the instrument will far outlive any sample library created today by centuries, or decades in the very least. So this project makes no sense at all for the purpose they stated. That's purely a marketing stunt. The only way this library could help preserve the sound of the instrument was if it raised money for the preservation of the real instrument. I hope it does. The fact that they don't advertise this makes me doubt it though.


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## saboo (Jun 27, 2020)

muk said:


> If the project really was about preserving the sound of this instrument, the last thing in the world you would want to do was meddling with the sound of the recording by phase aligning, adding fake vibrato, normalizing, adjusting pitch etc. etc. As Paolo wrote, the instrument will far outlive any sample library created today by centuries, or decades in the very least. So this project makes no sense at all for the purpose they stated. That's purely a marketing stunt. The only way this library could help preserve the sound of the instrument was if it raised money for the preservation of the real instrument. I hope it does. The fact that they don't advertise this makes me doubt it though.


Honestly, and I know I sound very cynical here, I think a large part of the reason they chose to sample a Strad is because the name is huge advertising for them.


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## LamaRose (Jun 27, 2020)

paoling said:


> We don't know what the future holds. Maybe they are going to donate half of the profits to the Museo of the Violino, or maybe they are investing into acquiring more instruments to converve and mantain. Who knows?



I don't know much about Italian corruption, but as I aways say: tis better to pay tribute to the Raccoon than to Caesar. 

Off now to the Fuffy Audrio string libs.


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## LamaRose (Jun 27, 2020)

To me, it appears that the instruments were sampled from the perspective of dozens of _chamber seats_ - mics - for preservation and future commercial/public use. So, one could look at this as N.I.'s interpretation based upon a small subset of said mics. Maybe Caesar will make place these samples in the public domain. Surely, time permitting, more libraries will be developed with new tech, new interpretations.

And the day may come when these instruments become _symbolic relics of the old aristocracy... _one major riot that includes ignorance and torches and poof... all gone.


----------



## Przemek K. (Jun 27, 2020)

So, regarding josejherring's question about my Paganini mockup, here is a short description on how I did approach this piece.

I did use a reference track I found on youtube performed by Sumina Studer.
The first thing I do before starting creating a mockup is I listen very closely to the piece lots of time to get a feeling for it. Its important to me to analyze the musicians musical performance and at the same time watching closely on how the phrasing,bowing,timing, pitch, vibrato speed/intensity and so on is being performed. 

I did split this piece in two parts. First the beginning with the runs and the second part with the short articulations. Additionally I had the video loaded in cubase and did play the runs live at the same time the video was being played and I was trying to match the speed and intensity and musical intention.
I did use the fingered legato for the runs live playing, after that I did break the runs into parts where I was watching the video and looked for where the musician was playing on same bow or if a bowchange or a short portamento did occur and put in keyswitches to accommodate the runs part. 

After that I needed to dive in further regarding detuning the pitch on certain notes, and working out the vibrato part as well.

The 2nd part with the short articulations was another beast. It was hard hearing out certain notes because sometimes it was like 2 notes being played at the same time or something in between.
So additionally I did use a score sheet so that I did get the notes right, but still payed live together with the video. After that lots of experimentation with the different short articulations came in, where I did try to find a middle ground between the original performance and the samples.

I did opt for the close mic only to get closer to the raw sound of the reference track. I did modify the instrument as well to make it sound more crisp and dry for lack of a better word.
The original settings of the close mic sound more gentle and if you mix in the mid mics it gets more
softer.


Here is a picture of a very early stage of the runs part:


----------



## filipjonathan (Jun 27, 2020)

Przemek K. said:


> So, regarding josejherring's question about my Paganini mockup, here is a short description on how I did approach this piece.
> 
> I did use a reference track I found on youtube performed by Sumina Studer.
> The first thing I do before starting creating a mockup is I listen very closely to the piece lots of time to get a feeling for it. Its important to me to analyze the musicians musical performance and at the same time watching closely on how the phrasing,bowing,timing, pitch, vibrato speed/intensity and so on is being performed.
> ...


Thanks for the insight!


----------



## Wes Antczak (Jun 27, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> Thanks for the insight!



As Paulo said a few posts back, let's not forget that the Joshua Bell is also a Stradivarius. I also prefer the Gibson-Huberman since it's actively being played. Is that also the case with the Vesuvius or is it mainly a museum piece?


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 27, 2020)

Any clue as to when this Violin will be released, besides that it's coming soon  ?


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 27, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Any clue as to when this Violin will be released, besides that it's coming soon  ?







__





Native Instruments new solo violin


20 articulations and only 10 keyswitches... They still don't get it.




vi-control.net





This monday


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 27, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback. 

Wow..That's very good news. Monday is just around the corner.


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## paoling (Jun 27, 2020)

Wes Antczak said:


> As Paulo said a few posts back, let's not forget that the Joshua Bell is also a Stradivarius. I also prefer the Gibson-Huberman since it's actively being played. Is that also the case with the Vesuvius or is it mainly a museum piece?


Yes, mainly what the museum does is hiring a guy to play the instruments everyday.


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## CatOrchestra (Jun 29, 2020)

It is out now at the intro price of 149 euro.

Get this now? Tempted, but maybe it will be part of K13? But I guess it will take time before K13 is discounted?


----------



## Ivamusic (Jun 29, 2020)

Yes it’s live now $219 AUD


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## richhickey (Jun 29, 2020)

8 articulation 'slots', sigh. Why not just make all 20 articulations available all the time? Now we each get the joy of independently solving this with Kontakt multis? C'mon.


----------



## Adam Takacs (Jun 29, 2020)

I'd like to know if the problem of long notes are due to a script issue and can be addressed? If so, when an update is expected that will solve the problem?


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 29, 2020)

tadam said:


> the problem of long notes


There’s a problem?


----------



## Adam Takacs (Jun 29, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> There’s a problem?


Unfortunately a deal breaker for me: crossfade problems in dynamics and vibrato transitions :(



Too bad because I was so excited when I saw it's coming. And when I heard that incredible piece by Przemyslaw Kopczyk.


----------



## LHall (Jun 29, 2020)

tadam said:


> Unfortunately a deal breaker for me: crossfade problems in dynamics and vibrato transitions :(
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad because I was so excited when I saw it's coming. And when I heard that incredible piece by Przemyslaw Kopczyk.



Hmm - I missed that before, but I certainly hear what you mean. Yes - hoping someone can address that.


----------



## Iondot (Jun 29, 2020)

So it has been officially released. The introductory price ($150 vs. $200 when sale ends) sounds reasonable, even if the samples themselves had been freely available — and if they had, I might have made the purchase. It would be worth it to me to have the work done on programming. But I don't feel I can support the effort under the circumstances I laid out above.


----------



## TintoL (Jun 29, 2020)

tadam said:


> I'd like to know if the problem of long notes are due to a script issue and can be addressed? If so, when an update is expected that will solve the problem?


Hi Tadam, can you point to an area of the video where you hear that? The issue might be there, but honestly, the tone is awesome.


----------



## Adam Takacs (Jun 29, 2020)

TintoL said:


> Hi Tadam, can you point to an area of the video where you hear that? The issue might be there, but honestly, the tone is awesome.


Hello! Sustain last note, marcato 3rd note


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 29, 2020)

tadam said:


> Unfortunately a deal breaker for me: crossfade problems in dynamics and vibrato transitions :(



Maybe that can be fixed with an update? If just two samples of adjacent velocity layers aren't well aligned, that would be fixable I think. If issues were baked into the samples themselves, that would make it less likely.


----------



## ReelToLogic (Jun 29, 2020)

tadam said:


> Unfortunately a deal breaker for me: crossfade problems in dynamics and vibrato transitions :(
> 
> 
> 
> Too bad because I was so excited when I saw it's coming. And when I heard that incredible piece by Przemyslaw Kopczyk.





TintoL said:


> Hi Tadam, can you point to an area of the video where you hear that? The issue might be there, but honestly, the tone is awesome.



+1 to TintoL's request

At the point in the walk-through video linked below, it specifically points out how they phase aligned the samples to ensure smooth dynamic cross-fades and it sounds pretty good to me. I would like to see a more in-depth walk-through highlighting the scripted vibrato in more detail.

I like the user interface and sound of this library a lot, but have other violins I can use. What are the chances that this will be half-off duing NI's Black Friday sale? Will it be too new?

https://youtu.be/eDmRjqJHlbY?t=653


----------



## fcangia (Jun 29, 2020)

Iondot said:


> I'm disappointed. Not by the sound, or the product, but by what I foolishly believed would be an effort for the public good. A year and a half ago, I heard about this project, which was in the news as an effort to preserve the sound of the Stradivarius, not to create a Native Instrument's product. I was under the impression (or perhaps delusion) that the Museo del Violino Antonio Stradivari would be cataloging, archiving and making these sounds (not the instrument) available to the public. I kept checking back, but the sound archive never turned up.
> 
> But here it is, as a commercial product. While this may seem like no big deal, an entire town was asked to participate in this preservation. This could have been something to benefit music students in perpetuity, and instead, it has been turned into just another product, for sale, like pair of sneakers or a cinnamon bun — and one that will eventually be rendered unusable in time as DRM controls lock future generations out with long forgotten formats tied to serial numbers and licenses of people who will one day be dead.
> 
> I have strong feelings about copyright and it's uses and protections, but also it's abuses and manipulations. I can't help but be disappointed.




I'm from Italy, and I had the same identical thought about that.
At a first sight, it seems that the Museo and the City were a bit fooled, but I don't know the details. I really hope that NI will explain and some money will go to the Museum, as my friend @paoling is suggesting. Disappointed also for the result, it sounds so fake and midish to my ears. (as Session Strings btw)


----------



## Adam Takacs (Jun 29, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Maybe that can be fixed with an update? If just two samples of adjacent velocity layers aren't well aligned, that would be fixable I think. If issues were baked into the samples themselves, that would make it less likely.


I think it can be fixed by scripting. I really hope because it would be a very good and unique library. Those shorts, those trills... Amazing. But I can't ignore these fake sounds. It's essential to have natural longs so I can't buy it till the problem is not solved.


----------



## TintoL (Jun 29, 2020)

tadam said:


> Hello! Sustain last note, marcato 3rd note



OK, I was actually working while listening to it. So, I didn't hear in detail. But, after paying proper attention, I can confirm what you said. The facing is shown clearly. Specially the Marcato, that is the worst offender. 

But, I still like the tone. I hope they can improve it. 

Thanks for answering.


----------



## Mark Schmieder (Jun 29, 2020)

Has NI ever updated a sample library vs. an instrument? Granted, e-instruments did this for them. But I don't recall an NI sample library ever being updated vs. having a Version 2 later on or a Pro Edition.

That is, the mainline products like Kontakt, Reaktor, etc., get updates. Just being realistic here rather than engaging in wishful/hopeful thinking.


----------



## Rory (Jun 29, 2020)

This small-town kid from midwestern Canada knows a thing or two about playing a Strad. Bet he wouldn't mess up his transitions. The keyboard player knows his stuff too  This is a terrific new release, available in CD on July 3 and via download now.


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## ism (Jun 29, 2020)

I don't think that this issues in the cross fade are as much "problems" as "physics".

Rather, the issue isn't in necessarily bad scripting so much a limitation endemic to the approach taken.

Other approaches make other design descisions

Embertone JB - don't even allow crossfading in the first place. Means pristine tone, at the cost of limiting dynamics expressiveness.

Embertone Friedlander / Chris Hein - phase alignment. Means pristinely smooth and expressive crossfading, at the expense of significantly compromised tone.



Spitfire - accept the bumpiness of crossfading. Means great tone, great expressiveness, but dynamic crossfading is inevitably a bit bumpy.

Vir Harmonic - record that arcs in their entirely. Pristinely smooth dynamics. But it means that you have very limited control over the arcs.

Tina Guo (and similar instruments) - simulate dynamics with eq. Means smooth dynamics, but not very good dynamics. ( TG has some dynamics build into the arcs also).


Sample Modeling - Even more extreme modelling of dynamics. Supemely smooth and expressive control of dynamics. Even more extreme cost to the tone.


And the dimensions of the challenge in getting expressiveness in the vibrato is much the same.


So I don't know if I think that the issues we're hearing are "problems" with the scripting, so much as basic limitations arising from the physics of trying to get one dynamic of a single violin string to transmogrify into another one on demand.



But this really sounds like a very good attempt at making a design decision that has a sweet spot that I don't really think anything else does. For instance, it definitely has a lot (though not all) of the sound quality of the JB, but with more expressiveness. And there probably are times when I'd be willing to sacrifice some tone quality in exchange for more dynamic expressiveness.

But it's still making compromises based on the same underlying problem dictated but the physics.


----------



## Bollen (Jun 29, 2020)

robgb said:


> This does sound very nice, but, honestly, now that I've been using the Sample Modeling Solo & Ensembles Strings solo violin, I can't think of anything sounding better.


Couldn't agree more! I have never heard anything more realistic than this:


----------



## MartinH. (Jun 29, 2020)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Has NI ever updated a sample library



Sure, imho slightly more often than some other devs, in terms of bugfixing.


----------



## Adam Takacs (Jun 29, 2020)

I don't hear that problem in the second part of the walkthrough where the dynamics are presented. So it's maybe just a few notes indeed which need to be corrected.


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 29, 2020)

ism said:


> I don't think that this issues in the cross fade are as much "problems" as "physics".
> 
> Rather, the issue isn't in necessarily bad scripting so much a limitation endemic to the approach taken.
> 
> ...


Thanks @ism. As usual you’re the voice of reason. Problems get “declared” far too easy these days...


----------



## MA-Simon (Jun 29, 2020)

Bollen said:


> Couldn't agree more! I have never heard anything more realistic than this:


What IS THAT BREATH CONTROLLER!!!!? (Want!)


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> What IS THAT BREATH CONTROLLER!!!!? (Want!)



TEC Breath & Bite Controller 2

I'm planning on buying one soon.


----------



## Rory (Jun 29, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> What IS THAT BREATH CONTROLLER!!!!? (Want!)



There's info about it, and how it works, in the YouTube comments.


----------



## MA-Simon (Jun 29, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> TEC Breath & Bite Controller 2
> 
> I'm planning on buying one soon.


Looks good! Not shure how durable this is though. Seems there is a lot of control. Breath / Bite / Angle. Not shure how much libraries would have options for that.
But it seems... exciting.


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2020)

The BBC2 Tilt control feature is set to modulate Pitch-bend. He uses his hand's vibrato movement to shake his head in a tilt movement, which then creates the vibrato due to the modulation of the pitch- bend via head-tilt motion.

By the way, I haven't seen this type of control applied to any other instrument, he is using the Sample Modeling Solo Violin.


----------



## MA-Simon (Jun 29, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> By the way, I haven't seen this type of control applied to any other instrument, he is using the Sample Modeling Solo Violin.


Hm, I have no idea how it feels to play, but I can see it working with custom Kontakt patches.
Might get it. There are a few options on that page though, which I have no idea what I would need.
There is a headset option for like 29$. Is that supposed to combine with the BBC2 or is it included?


----------



## Adam Takacs (Jun 29, 2020)

@ism I don't think, it's the standard phase problem.
One of the voiced strengths of the library is that it is phase-aligned, so the transition trough the different dynamic layers is smooth. Sounds more like some of the samples recorded by the surround microphones fade during the transition, but not in general, only for certain notes, so I think this is just a fixable problem. I hope at least but it would be great to know for sure...

At the dedicated part of dynamics there is no problem at all by the crossfading



But clearly noticeable here at the end of the phrase



Not to mention this part:


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> Hm, I have no idea how it feel to play, but I can see it working with custom Kontakt patches.
> Might get it. There are a few option on that page though, which I have no idea hwat I would need.
> There is a headset option for like 29$. Is that supposed to combine with the BBC2 or is it included?



From the TEC web Page for BBC2 

Quote: _ "Configurable Breath Controller with USB-MIDI class compliant interface, flexible headset, bite force sensitive mouthpiece and head inclination sensor."_

So, the headset is included according to this.


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2020)

Any good reason why they limited the number of articulations one can have access to only eight ?


----------



## filipjonathan (Jun 29, 2020)

This guy seems to like it


----------



## Iondot (Jun 29, 2020)

ism said:


> I don't think that this issues in the cross fade are as much "problems" as "physics".
> 
> Rather, the issue isn't in necessarily bad scripting so much a limitation endemic to the approach taken.
> 
> ...


This kind of thoughtful reply is what everyone posting should aspire to. I'm still waiting for a better understanding of why these samples recorded under the pretense of preservation for the public good but are, at present, indistinguishable from a purely commercial product. 

In terms of critique of approach, if preservation was the goal, then it seems the approach that would serve that goal would favor pristine sound over dynamics, as a matter of philosophy. I believe this was pointed out above, but bares repeating in the context of @ism 's very comprehensive post.

If anyone from Native Instruments would care to comment, I think some of us would find it helpful.


----------



## Adam Takacs (Jun 29, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> This guy seems to like it



Thank you for sharing!
There are some weird, delayed releases on détaché, tremolo and trill (from 8:22)


----------



## davidson (Jun 29, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> This guy seems to like it




He accidentally slipped up and showed some unreleased NI libraries in his kontakt browser, so it looks like he's removed the video


----------



## filipjonathan (Jun 29, 2020)

davidson said:


> He accidentally slipped up and showed some unreleased NI libraries in his kontakt browser, so it looks like he's removed the video


Yeah, people kept asking about it in the comments 😂


----------



## filipjonathan (Jun 29, 2020)

I don't know, I really like the tone so far.


----------



## filipjonathan (Jun 29, 2020)

davidson said:


> He accidentally slipped up and showed some unreleased NI libraries in his kontakt browser, so it looks like he's removed the video


It's just unlisted now.


----------



## emasters (Jun 29, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Any good reason why they limited the number of articulations one can have access to only eight ?



I have wondered the same thing. A shame that one only gets access to a subset of articulations at any one time (unless I'm missing something).


----------



## fcangia (Jun 29, 2020)

I think the sound is just awful, so harsh and fake. It is better the Miroslav Philarmonik one for my taste, just to say. And It doesn't mean anything that is a Stradivari.
THIS is a sampled library, and not only because of also this is a Stradivari, but because it is well scripted. I'm talking about Embertone Joshua Bell Violin.

I can't understand how is even possible to compare them.


----------



## ism (Jun 29, 2020)

[/QUOTE]


tadam said:


> @ism I don't think, it's the standard phase problem.
> One of the voiced strengths of the library is that it is phase-aligned, so the transition trough the different dynamic layers is smooth. Sounds more like some of the samples recorded by the surround microphones fade during the transition, but not in general, only for certain notes, so I think this is just a fixable problem. I hope at least but it would be great to know for sure...
> 
> At the dedicated part of dynamics there is no problem at all by the crossfading
> ...



Hmm, you might be right. My first impression was that what you’re referring to was probably an artifact of the the vibrato simulation, perhaps interacting with the phase alignment or some such. Now I’m not so sure.

A small thing compared to the kind of issues I used to have in dark age of the BJB (Before Joshua Bell) era though. So its great that this is even an issue.

If I were to file a request for a bug fix in the BJB era, probably all the eloquence and technically precision I could have managed at the time was something like “This ‘violin’ makes me want to slam my head in a door”.

2020 is a much happier time in this respect at least.


----------



## ism (Jun 29, 2020)

fcangia said:


> I think the sound is just awful, so harsh and fake. It is better the Miroslav Philarmonik one for my taste, just to say. And It doesn't mean anything that is a Stradivari.
> THIS is a sampled library, and not only because of also this is a Stradivari, but because it is well scripted. I'm talking about Embertone Joshua Bell Violin.
> 
> I can't understand how is even possible to compare them.



Apparently Alex at embertone was origionally going to phase align the JB samples, but thought better of it in order to preserve the Joshua’s tone. Which is a decision that I hugely appreciate.

That said, although you can clearly hear the effects of the phase alignment (And vibrato simulation) on the NI instrument, it‘s also capable of a dynamic expressiveness that the JB simple isn’t. The inability to Expressively alter the dynamics of the JB also drives me crazy for certain types if lines. 

So understanding the necessary evil of the timbre vs expressivness tradeoffs endemic to violin physics, while you’ll still have to pry my JB license from my cold, dead hands, the NI violin is probable the best execution of phase alignment I’ve heard, so I also thing this is a deeply worth contribution to state of the art violin sampling. (As is the new 8dio one).


----------



## fcangia (Jun 29, 2020)

ism said:


> Apparently Alex at embertone was origionally going to phase align the JB samples, but though better of it in order to preserve the Joshua’s tone. Which is a decision that I hugely appreciate.
> 
> That said, although you can clearly hear the effects of the phase alignment (And vibrato simulation) on the NI instrument, it‘s also capable of a dynamic expressiveness that the JB simple isn’t. The inability to Expressively alter the dynamics of the JB also drives me crazy for certain types if lines.
> 
> So understanding the necessary evil of the timbre vs expressivness tradeoffs endemic to violin physics, while you’ll still have to pry my JB license from my cold, dead hands, the NI violin is probable the best execution of phase alignment I’ve heard, so I also thing this is a deeply worth contribution to state of the art violin sampling. (As is the new 8dio one).



Phase alignment ok but the sound is horrible


----------



## filipjonathan (Jun 29, 2020)

fcangia said:


> Phase alignment ok but the sound is horrible


I think that's subjective. I like it. Don't love it but like it enough to eventually buy it.


----------



## ism (Jun 29, 2020)

fcangia said:


> Phase alignment ok but the sound is horrible


I’d wager though that the quality of ‘horribleness’ you’re experiencing, next to the JB, is an artifact of the distortions to the timbre arising directly from the phase alignment and/or the vibrato simulation.

If I metaphorically step back and listen to the NI violin with a certain distance, I quite like the timbre, it‘s raspier, more textural than the JB.

But then I have another mode of listening where, at least for a certain context of musicality, this ’textural raspyness‘ is clearly violence being done to the original samples by modeling techniques.

(Of course, I still want this violin, very much )


----------



## fcangia (Jun 29, 2020)

ism said:


> I’d wager though that the quality of ‘horribleness’ you’re experiencing, next to the JB, is an artifact of the distortions to the timbre arising directly from the phase alignment and/or the vibrato simulation.
> 
> If I metaphorically step back and listen to the NI violin with a certain distance, I quite like the timbre, it‘s raspier, more textural than the JB.
> 
> ...



You're right, I'm sorry, I have been just a bit impulsive. Is a matter of opinions


----------



## ism (Jun 29, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> I think that's subjective. I like it. Don't love it but like it enough to eventually buy it.


Not entirely. I think that phase alignment, simulated vibrato and other modeling techniques (including fake early reflection reverb), while they can subjectively be made to sound very nice, within a certain stylized musicality, there‘s still a quality of naturalness that - objectively - simply cannot be faked.

And ever if your average listener is never going to be able listen and render an objective, cognitive judgement of which is more realistic, fooling listeners cognitively is *entirely* not the point.

I’d argue that there’s an ‘emotional realism’ that underlies a certain kind of musicality. And this isn’t always what you want, especially in film music where music is often meant to take people away from a sense of embodiment into some kind of transcendent state.

But equally, there’s a musicality that demands a quality of (what I’ve started describing as) “embodiment”. And simulated modelling techniques - even when they sound very pleasant in a stylized kind of way - can all work to cumulatively undermined this sense of embodiment.



fcangia said:


> You're right, I'm sorry, I have been just a bit impulsive. Is a matter of opinions



So no need to apologize. As much as I love this NI instrument, and as much as the phase alignment etc does deliver a wonderful kind of musicality in its own right, I’m completely with you on calling it out for just not delivering other musicalities.

And it’s not, or at least not entirely, just a matter of opinion or subjective preference. It’s a real effect, and there’s (almost certainly) deep principles of evolutionary psychology underlying this perceptual quality.


----------



## Werty (Jun 29, 2020)

soundwise the best one is the Virharmonic anyway. N.I and the Embertone sound both a bit boxy in comparison.


----------



## ism (Jun 29, 2020)

Werty said:


> soundwise the best one is the Virharmonic anyway. N.I and the Embertone sound both a bit boxy in comparison.



I love Virharmonic, but I’d argue that it’s processed and/or recorded to optimize for brightness. Which means that it’s all lovely and sparkly out of the box, and can pierce through a mix as a virtuuosic to the point of prima donna soloist. But this can also come back to bite you when you need to mix it in context.

It’s also bone dry. The JB (thought not the other ISS instruments) has a nice room tone, which I find invaluable in getting it to sit in a mix. Similarly the room tone / mic on the NI violin has me interested in what it will be like in a mix.

Especially if its designed to work within a quartet (which the Bohemian is decidedly not).


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Jun 29, 2020)

fcangia said:


> You're right, I'm sorry, I have been just a bit impulsive. Is a matter of opinions


It is almost always about opinions. There are often some objective elements that can be discussed when talking about VIs and some have been touched on here. FWIW, I'm looking for an option of solo violin that will work for a piece I'm tinkering with (been tinkering for ages) and when this was announced I thought it might do the trick. Having listened to the walk through I don't think it will. It's a pass for me. Again, just my opinion. @reutunes that is no slight on your excellent presentation by the way.


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 29, 2020)

So far, I have been reading more, and more negative comments about this solo violin. 

Any positive comments about it ?


----------



## CatOrchestra (Jun 29, 2020)

Bollen said:


> Couldn't agree more! I have never heard anything more realistic than this:



That is truly beautiful! Does it still provide vibrato on open strings ?


----------



## tcb (Jun 29, 2020)

tadam said:


> @ism I don't think, it's the standard phase problem.
> One of the voiced strengths of the library is that it is phase-aligned, so the transition trough the different dynamic layers is smooth. Sounds more like some of the samples recorded by the surround microphones fade during the transition, but not in general, only for certain notes, so I think this is just a fixable problem. I hope at least but it would be great to know for sure...
> 
> At the dedicated part of dynamics there is no problem at all by the crossfading
> ...



Agree with you.
But I doubt NI can repair this problem.
The violin was recorded in a space.Reverb is also recorded within the samples.The phase of reverb is chaotic.So do a phase-align maybe very difficult.
But at least,close mic can be improved.


----------



## NYC Composer (Jun 29, 2020)

CatOrchestra said:


> That is truly beautiful! Does it still provide vibrato on open strings ?


This is the first time I’ve ever considered a breath controller.


----------



## LHall (Jun 30, 2020)

I got impulsive last night and bought the NI Strad and have been playing with it some. My first thought last night was - wish I could get a refund! But I've been working with it more this morning and I'm only half wishing that now.

Things I like: I think the tone is quite nice. Some say beautiful and some say horrible. As others have noted, it's all rather subjective. I certainly don't think it's horrible by any means. I've been around real violins that sounded much worse.

Criticisms: Virtuoso Mode: You can't pitch bend. Using the pitch wheel for shorts was a nice idea, but should have been assigned elsewhere. Not being able to use the pitch wheel as it's intended is frustrating. Unlike every other VI that has portamento, the slide is triggered by high velocity instead of low. VERY unintuitive. Also, the length of the portamento seems to be fixed and doesn't adjust by the amount of velocity. 

If you play short notes in virtuoso mode with the mid and far mics up, there is a strange release that sound very synthy to my ears. It's better using close mic only. 

If you leave virtuoso mode, you have to set up keyswitches to go between fingered, bowed, and port legato. Very cumbersome. Not performance-friendly.

I'm not a fan of having "expression" and "dynamics" on two separate controllers. Once I set up both to respond to my foot pedal (which I had to do with channel modifiers in logic because the controller options are very limited in the Strad GUI) and rerouted the vibrato control to my mod wheel (it uses CC#14 by default) I was able to start getting a bit of a nice performance out of it. 

The vibrato isn't convincing to my ears. Not horrible, just not quite right. But I chose this over the 8dio violin because I wanted to have some control over vibrato which is not possible on the 8dio. 

Bottomline - I'm still much happier with my SM Violin (full disclosure - I helped beta on SM Vln). But this isn't bad. 

Here' a clip of a simple phrase. First by NI Strad, second by SM Violin, and third the two of them together. I played the phrases separately for each instrument. Close mic and dry for both and then both set in the same ambience by VSS and EW Spaces. Enjoy!


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## ism (Jun 30, 2020)

LHall said:


> Criticisms: Virtuoso Mode: You can't pitch bend. Using the pitch wheel for shorts was a nice idea, but should have been assigned elsewhere. Not being able to use the pitch wheel as it's intended is frustrating.



thanks for the review. There’s some very nice stuff in your demo. As well as some manifest limitations.

As for pitch bend - when you have baked in reverb / room mics, pitch bend is just a bad idea. This is why spitfire also typically disables the pitch wheel. Again, a manifest limitation, unless you record bone dry - which has it’s own manifest limitations.


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## SupremeFist (Jun 30, 2020)

I kind of want this NI Strad even though I already have Joshua Bell Essentials, Taylor Davis, Fluffy Audio Simple Violin, and Tableau Solo Strings. Am I a) insane, or b) a normal member of VI-C?


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## ism (Jun 30, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I kind of want this NI Strad even though I already have Joshua Bell Essentials, Taylor Davis, Fluffy Audio Simple Violin, and Tableau Solo Strings. Am I a) insane, or b) a normal member of VI-C?


Are those mutually exclusive?


But here’s my venn diagram, that you should feel free to retitle “how I learned to stop worrying and justify buying every solo string library i can get my hands on”, if it helps.


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## LHall (Jun 30, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I kind of want this NI Strad even though I already have Joshua Bell Essentials, Taylor Davis, Fluffy Audio Simple Violin, and Tableau Solo Strings. Am I a) insane, or b) a normal member of VI-C?


Haha - you're totally normal! How many violins is enough? One more.


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## LHall (Jun 30, 2020)

ism said:


> As for pitch bend - when you have baked in reverb / room mics, pitch bend is just a bad idea. This is why spitfire also typically disables the pitch wheel. Again, a manifest limitation, unless you record bone dry - which has it’s own manifest limitations.



You are totally right about that. That's one reason I much prefer close mics and do my own ambience. If you're playing anything jazzy or fiddle-ish, you've got to work that pitch just a bit.


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## ism (Jun 30, 2020)

LHall said:


> You are totally right about that. That's one reason I much prefer close mics and do my own ambience. If you're playing anything jazzy or fiddle-ish, you've got to work that pitch just a bit.


Is there a library that you feel pitch bend works ok on to give you that kind of expressiveness?


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## LHall (Jun 30, 2020)

The SM Violin works great for me. Before it came out, I still had the old Garritan Strad (which I still kinda love) and the SWAM solo violin. Both of those work great.


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## ism (Jun 30, 2020)

LHall said:


> The SM Violin works great for me. Before it came out, I still had the old Garritan Strad (which I still kinda love) and the SWAM solo violin. Both of those work great.



That makes sense. Though of course that would be modeled pitch bend. I’m be surprised if you could get away with that on a traditionally sampled instrument, though I really have no idea myself.


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## IdealSequenceG (Jun 30, 2020)

They didn't record real vibrato samples. Why?

I really don't like simulated vibrato.


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## ism (Jun 30, 2020)

IdealSequenceG said:


> They didn't record real vibrato samples. Why?
> 
> I really don't like simulated vibrato.



I’m guessing here, but it could be


a) if this is meant to be part of a quartet, then it is absolutely going to need control over vibrato. Quartets where all the instruments play exactly the same progressive vibrato ... it can sound nice at first, but after a while ... I think I would prefer fingernails on blackboards.

b) in hybrid contexts (and this is NI’s market) often it’s not so much about the realism of the vibrato, it’s about how the change in the vibrato allows the soloist to pierce through the mix.

c) Plonkability sells. It really wouldn’t make sense for NI to produce an instrument with the performability of Spitfire Solo Strings.


and of course the general point is that for certain types of musicality, the expressiveness of having fine control on the vibrato genuinely matters a lot more that the nuances of sonority that other design decisions would optimize for at the expense of plonkability.


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## IdealSequenceG (Jun 30, 2020)

ism said:


> I’m guessing here, but it could be
> 
> 
> a) if this is meant to be part of a quartet, then it is absolutely going to need control over vibrato. Quartets where all the instruments play exactly the same progressive vibrato ... it can sound nice at first, but after a while ... I think I would prefer fingernails on blackboards.
> ...



At least they should have given the user a choice between the real vibrato recorded and the simulation vibrato.


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## BezO (Jun 30, 2020)

LHall said:


> I got impulsive last night and bought the NI Strad and have been playing with it some. My first thought last night was - wish I could get a refund! But I've been working with it more this morning and I'm only half wishing that now.
> 
> Things I like: I think the tone is quite nice. Some say beautiful and some say horrible. As others have noted, it's all rather subjective. I certainly don't think it's horrible by any means. I've been around real violins that sounded much worse.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the review & sample. Sounds good for my needs. I won't be buying it separately, but it will likely be a large part of my decision to upgrade to 13U, assuming it's included.

And I'm going to try putting expression & dynamics on my pedal, and vibrato on the mod wheel. That sounds much more playable.


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## filipjonathan (Jun 30, 2020)

LHall said:


> I got impulsive last night and bought the NI Strad and have been playing with it some. My first thought last night was - wish I could get a refund! But I've been working with it more this morning and I'm only half wishing that now.
> 
> Things I like: I think the tone is quite nice. Some say beautiful and some say horrible. As others have noted, it's all rather subjective. I certainly don't think it's horrible by any means. I've been around real violins that sounded much worse.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the review!! I have to admit I prefer the first sound, that is NI Strad. But as someone already said, I'm gonna wait for K13U and see if it's included.


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## Fa (Jul 1, 2020)

Impressive marketing, fantastic and fascinating initiative... but Gosh! Such a disappointing result.

Sustain is so poor, and vibrato is almost a no go IMVHO. Checking tech specs I suppose that dynamic phase-alignment and Vibrato are hard to match... curious to know more from actual users.


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## Bollen (Jul 1, 2020)

CatOrchestra said:


> That is truly beautiful! Does it still provide vibrato on open strings ?


I don't know since I don't own it... Perhaps @robgb can illuminate us...


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## bvaughn0402 (Jul 1, 2020)

Well the one good thing about this thread ... I totally forgot about SM Violin. Think I'll be picking that one up.


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## muziksculp (Jul 1, 2020)

bvaughn0402 said:


> Well the one good thing about this thread ... I totally forgot about SM Violin. Think I'll be picking that one up.



Just in case you forgot . SM Violin is not sold separately, it is sold as part of SM Solo & Ensemble Strings library.


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## muziksculp (Jul 1, 2020)

Here is a new review of the NI Stard. Violin I came across :


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## bvaughn0402 (Jul 1, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Just in case you forgot . SM Violin is not sold separately, it is sold as part of SM Solo & Ensemble Strings library.



Oh yes, thanks!


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## Will Blackburn (Jul 2, 2020)

All i can say is E Instruments, you absolute LEGENDS. Hands down my favourite Violin so far. Easy to play, sounds great and neither too wet or dry. The icing on the cake, is that legato style option for longer portamento. I get Kronos Quartet / Hildur's Joker soundtrack vibes from this instantly!


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## muziksculp (Jul 2, 2020)

Will Blackburn said:


> All i can say is E Instruments, you absolute LEGENDS. Hands down my favourite Violin so far. Easy to play, sounds great and neither too wet or dry. The icing on the cake, is that legato style option for longer portamento. I get Kronos Quartet / Hildur's Joker soundtrack vibes from this instantly!



Thanks for the feedback. 

It's nice to read some positive comments about this violin on this thread.


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## filipjonathan (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm so confused now. Some people claim it's horrible, yet some people love it 🤔


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## ism (Jul 2, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> I'm so confused now. Some people claim it's horrible, yet some people love it 🤔


Both are right.


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## bvaughn0402 (Jul 2, 2020)

Will Blackburn said:


> All i can say is E Instruments, you absolute LEGENDS. Hands down my favourite Violin so far. Easy to play, sounds great and neither too wet or dry. The icing on the cake, is that legato style option for longer portamento. I get Kronos Quartet / Hildur's Joker soundtrack vibes from this instantly!



Which one is this?


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## Batrawi (Jul 3, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> I'm so confused now. Some people claim it's horrible, yet some people love it 🤔


to me, it sounds like a very well sampled mosquito trapped in a jar


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## Eptesicus (Jul 3, 2020)

I think it sounds fairly good. From what i have heard of the demos etc, it's nothing groundbreaking or any better than what is already out there though.


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## Fa (Jul 3, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> I'm so confused now. Some people claim it's horrible, yet some people love it 🤔



Not surprising, and as usual depends on personal taste and expectations, beside musical style. I would expect from a Stradi to have amazing sustain and large application to acoustic and traditional violin music. What NI is highligting instead is shorts and staccatos, and artificial/electric/amplified modern style sustain. If you just write this type of music of course it's ok. If you don't, probably it's a total disappointment.

In between, all the possible satisfaction rates, from personal opinions... :D


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## LHall (Jul 3, 2020)

IdealSequenceG said:


> They didn't record real vibrato samples. Why?
> 
> I really don't like simulated vibrato.


I think this is one of those situations where you must choose. Either recorded vibrato that sounds perfect but with almost no user control, or modeled vibrato that sound less perfect but with much control. You kinda can't have it both ways. For me, I prefer more control. I guess I'm a controller freak.


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## IdealSequenceG (Jul 3, 2020)

LHall said:


> I think this is one of those situations where you must choose. Either recorded vibrato that sounds perfect but with almost no user control, or modeled vibrato that sound less perfect but with much control. You kinda can't have it both ways. For me, I prefer more control. I guess I'm a controller freak.



Yes, but because there are users like me, they should have given both emulation and recorded sound. 

They chose to emulate vibrato in non-vibrato sustain sample and used conv reverb in kontakt sendeffects to hide the synthesizer-like vibrato.

Off it and you'll hear the synthesized vibrato sound.

At least I think that the recorded tone of the instrument, which was beautifully recorded in this way, is also one factor that sounds unsatisfactory.


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## Werty (Jul 3, 2020)

I'm liking the demos so far (considering they would sound even better without reverb).


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## muziksculp (Jul 3, 2020)

Werty said:


> I'm liking the demos so far (considering they would sound even better without reverb).



Violin sound without acoustics doesn't sound that great. You always need some acoustics/reverb to make it sing.


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## j_kranz (Jul 3, 2020)

LHall said:


> I think this is one of those situations where you must choose. Either recorded vibrato that sounds perfect but with almost no user control, or modeled vibrato that sound less perfect but with much control. You kinda can't have it both ways. For me, I prefer more control. I guess I'm a controller freak.



It depends on what you are trying to do in the post-production phase of sample production. In the intro video they mention phase alignment... which essentially equates to no real vibrato (generally impossible to phase align). My guess is this is why they went that route. With solo string samples, it's unfortunately often a damned-if-you-do / damned-if-you-don't situation with user expectations and the realities of sampling such expressive instruments.

(For the record I had nothing to do with this library even though I've worked closely with NI on many other projects).


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## Werty (Jul 3, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Violin sound without acoustics doesn't sound that great. You always need some acoustics/reverb to make it sing.



you mean the room? What I hear is often a reverb, rather than room mics. In my opinion every vst should be sampled in an anechoic chamber, so the vst acoustic will depend only on the room your speakers are being played (unless you use the earphones).


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## muziksculp (Jul 3, 2020)

Werty said:


> you mean the room? What I hear is often a reverb, rather than room mics. In my opinion every vst should be sampled in an anechoic chamber, so the vst acoustic will depend only on the room your speakers are being played (unless you use the earphones).



Yes. That's right. The acoustics of a room, or stage, or hall.


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## muziksculp (Jul 6, 2020)




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## dvicontrol (Jul 7, 2020)

Nobody has mentioned Chris Hein solo violin, which I have and think is pretty good. Do people not like it? Does anybody have any thoughts about how it compares to this new native instruments solo violin?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 7, 2020)

I like it a lot, though I really need to update it from 1.0. I understand Chris made the EQ a bit softer and gave away the Italian violin?


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## dvicontrol (Jul 7, 2020)

You should update, it was a good update. Better sound, more violins.


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## paoling (Jul 8, 2020)

Hello guys, 
Few days ago we had a very nice Skype call with Mattia and Leo from Audiozone studios. If you are wondering who they are, they are the guys who started this project five years ago. As I said, organizing such a thing in Italy is very difficult: you have to talk with people who have no idea about what you do, to gain permits, to pay for an absurd amount of unrelated things (insurance, permits, etc..). In the private sector things gets easier, and thst's why we mainly went that route in the past.

Without this nice conversation we had, it seemed like a few guys from Germany came to Italy, took whatever they needed and went back home without saying thank you to anyone. That's not how things went. 
So what's the main problem in how this thing was presented?

Basically it's the press. A journalist wrote a very nice article on the New York times which was actually quite a bit fictionalized . The photos of the deserted city, the barista who was in sorrow for dropping a glass, the fact that the police was silencing the siren or that they made the whole city church bells to stop (church bells in Italy are untouchable). They make a good read, but this was actually an invention. This article was so good and poetic that gained a lot of attention even back to Italy, so the local press suddenly was interested in this. 

The fact that this was actually a commercial project was stated clear from the beginning. But the press and the story that was told in those article seemed like it was quite a gift that a bunch of researchers did for the sake of the history of music and humanity.
In that vision, a sampled instrument from Native Instruments as a result, was felt like a kind of betrayal.

Anyway in Leonardo's noble vision there is still space for such a kind of collaborative/preserving/restoration idea so who knows what these two guys (which for me are the real minds behind this project) will be able to achieve in the future?

So, bravo to the guys at Audiozone studios!

(The barista was named Florencia in the NY article, but actually that's not even a name in Italian :D)


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## CatOrchestra (Jul 8, 2020)

Thank you for that. Maybe Florencia had moved from Argentina?

Seems that the NY Times /NPR does not explicitly state that it will be free....











To Save the Sound of a Stradivarius, a Whole City Must Keep Quiet (Published 2019)


A team in Cremona, Italy, wants to preserve every note from the world’s finest instruments before they become too fragile to play. But perfect recordings need silence. Lots of it.




www.nytimes.com





But in the NPR there is an interview where: "Tedeschi runs Audiozone, a northern Italian sound engineering firm. And he had an idea: "To bring the sound of Stradivari and make it accessible around the world," he says.

You can have a listen for yourselves. I heard that as "free" but I guess I was too optmisitic .


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## paoling (Jul 8, 2020)

Yes, but that's why Leo was seriously concerned about the bending of the truth that was in these articles. A few of them seemed like they did an interview with them, but they never saw those journalists. In few other articles instead, they mention about the fact that the software was a commercial product also indicating that it would be less than 500 euro. 

What is also true and not said, it is that the Museum got their money too and this is the best thing ever, so they can continue maintaining those instruments and renovate the place if they need.

Also, didn't we already heard the story of "helping a generation of composers" by selling stuff to them from others fellow developers too?


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## DSmolken (Jul 8, 2020)

paoling said:


> Basically it's the press. A journalist wrote a very nice article on the New York times which was actually quite a bit fictionalized . The photos of the deserted city, the barista who was in sorrow for dropping a glass, the fact that the police was silencing the siren or that they made the whole city church bells to stop (church bells in Italy are untouchable). They make a good read, but this was actually an invention. This article was so good and poetic that gained a lot of attention even back to Italy, so the local press suddenly was interested in this.


Ha. I remember running across that article, and being quite angry about the ridiculously special treatment, and not letting normal people go about their business. Good to know it wasn't reality.


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## chapbot (Jul 8, 2020)

It's almost hard to believe what a bunch of crooked liars the media are about literally everything, they can't even get a simple article about a musical instrument right without twisting it.


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## paoling (Jul 8, 2020)

I guess that's simply because they don't have a clue about what they are talking about. In anycase it's amazing how people who don't know about sampled instruments were fashioned by this news, while professionals, which these instruments are targeted for, were completely bummed.


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## Drundfunk (Jul 8, 2020)

paoling said:


> Hello guys,
> Few days ago we had a very nice Skype call with Mattia and Leo from Audiozone studios. If you are wondering who they are, they are the guys who started this project five years ago. As I said, organizing such a thing in Italy is very difficult: you have to talk with people who have no idea about what you do, to gain permits, to pay for an absurd amount of unrelated things (insurance, permits, etc..). In the private sector things gets easier, and thst's why we mainly went that route in the past.
> 
> Without this nice conversation we had, it seemed like a few guys from Germany came to Italy, took whatever they needed and went back home without saying thank you to anyone. That's not how things went.
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to enlighten us!


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## stfciu (Jul 8, 2020)

...mad world...


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## VivianaSings (Jul 11, 2020)

paoling said:


> Hello guys,
> Few days ago we had a very nice Skype call with Mattia and Leo from Audiozone studios. If you are wondering who they are, they are the guys who started this project five years ago. As I said, organizing such a thing in Italy is very difficult: you have to talk with people who have no idea about what you do, to gain permits, to pay for an absurd amount of unrelated things (insurance, permits, etc..). In the private sector things gets easier, and thst's why we mainly went that route in the past.
> 
> Without this nice conversation we had, it seemed like a few guys from Germany came to Italy, took whatever they needed and went back home without saying thank you to anyone. That's not how things went.
> ...



I wish I could say I'm shocked but honestly in America we already know, if it comes from the media or journalists, it's a lie.

The blatant lying of journalists is not a recent thing (although it's fairly recent that they don't even try to hide their lies anymore) but honestly Mark Twain said it over a hundred years ago -

"If you don't read the newspaper you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're misinformed".


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## Hadrondrift (Jul 11, 2020)

paoling said:


> I guess that's simply because they don't have a clue about what they are talking about.


In this case I would personally keep my mouth shut.

Not so the media and journalists these days. There is no more fact-based news, only attention-grabbing stories where truth doesn't matter much. Not even fake-news, but fictional storytelling based on a very tiny crumb of reality, yet still presented as a factual report.

That is the case all over the world. Here in Germany, there was a recent affair at a major "news" magazine (Spiegel), where it turned out that an award-winning journalist (Claas Relotius) had passed off countless freely invented stories as factual reports. The magazine hadn't checked that closely because, well, the stories were so good...

Everyone copies from each other, everyone tells stories, everything is a report, the truth has lost its meaning. You can no longer trust the media. It's kind of sad. That must be expressed in music. Perhaps with a sampled Stradivarius?


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## muziksculp (Jul 11, 2020)

Any idea if the NI Strad. Solo Violin will be included in NI Komplete 13 Ultimate ?


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## filipjonathan (Jul 11, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Any idea if the NI Strad. Solo Violin will be included in NI Komplete 13 Ultimate ?


We're all hoping for it 🤞🏻


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## muziksculp (Jul 11, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> We're all hoping for it 🤞🏻



I see. The Intro discounted price $149 ends Monday, July 13th it goes back to $199. 

That's why I was wondering about this.


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## dvicontrol (Jul 12, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> I see. The Intro discounted price $149 ends Monday, July 13th it goes back to $199.
> 
> That's why I was wondering about this.



Same here. Would hate to buy now only to see it ends up in the fall in Komplete Ultimate, depending on how much it would cost me to upgrade from Komplete 12 (regular) to Komplete Ultimate (the reasonable assumption here being that this Strad solo violin would not get included into regular Komplete and would only be included into Komplete Ultimate). 

I looked back over last year's Black Friday and other sales emails -- Komplete Ultimate upgrade regularly is $399 and that gets 1/2 Off either in Black Friday sale or the Fall sale they do, as best as I can make out from old emails I've saved to keep track of prior sales patterns.

So, if it is in Komplete Ultimate 13, and I can get that on sale this Fall or Black Friday for $200 (i.e., 1/2 the regular $399 upgrade price from regular to Ultimate), then I'd surely hate having spent $150 on this now rather than waiting.


I now have Komplete 12 (regular), so I'm wondering how much it will cost to upgrade from that to Komplete Ultimate with Fall/Black Friday sales prices, assuming this gets included in Komplete Ultimate?? 

Anyone have any ideas/info/well-grounded and reasoned thoughts re: this???


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## Donny Grace (Jul 12, 2020)

dvicontrol said:


> Same here. Would hate to buy now only to see it ends up in the fall in Komplete Ultimate



I've been a Native Instruments customer for 20 years and I've never liked their upgrade model, particularly with Komplete, and have expressed that to them many times pointing out that it punishes the very people they should be rewarding -- their very best loyal customers - the ones who buy everything at the time it is released. But they don't seem to get it or don't care. Not sure which. The proper paradigm would be to give loyal customers credit for the items they have already purchased and factor that into their upgrade price. But instead, as you point out, you end up effectively purchasing the products twice. This happened to me yet again with K12U CE. I had already purchased full versions of the entire Symphony Series before they introduced CE. So even with the recent half price sale, it made no sense to upgrade to CE as I got zero credit for owning the Symphony Series and would be paying the same as someone who owned none of it only to get a handful of expansions.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 12, 2020)

You can sell the Symphony Series, yes?


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## BezO (Jul 13, 2020)

dgrace said:


> I've been a Native Instruments customer for 20 years and I've never liked their upgrade model, particularly with Komplete, and have expressed that to them many times pointing out that it punishes the very people they should be rewarding -- their very best loyal customers - the ones who buy everything at the time it is released. But they don't seem to get it or don't care. Not sure which. The proper paradigm would be to give loyal customers credit for the items they have already purchased and factor that into their upgrade price. But instead, as you point out, you end up effectively purchasing the products twice. This happened to me yet again with K12U CE. I had already purchased full versions of the entire Symphony Series before they introduced CE. So even with the recent half price sale, it made no sense to upgrade to CE as I got zero credit for owning the Symphony Series and would be paying the same as someone who owned none of it only to get a handful of expansions.


Yeah, I hate their model. Unless I desperately need a release, I'll never buy an individual product from them. With a better upgrade model, I would've grabbed these last 2 releases, maybe 1 or 2 earlier ones as well.

They also charge folks updating from the most recent versions the same as folks several versions back.

And I still feel they were at least deceptive saying they would never include Symphony Series with U, only to create CE and include it there.


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## Donny Grace (Jul 13, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> You can sell the Symphony Series, yes?


Why would anyone want to buy mine when they could have gotten the whole set from NI along with the extra 30 expansions, and on top of that a $25 voucher (which they wouldn't have gotten from me) for $299 (effectively $274)?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 13, 2020)

Because you sell yours for $125, maybe.


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## Donny Grace (Jul 13, 2020)

NYC Composer said:


> Because you sell yours for $125, maybe.


My "Full" licenses were tied to my "Essential" licenses since I did a crossgrade. So if I got rid of my licenses, then I wouldn't have likely been able to upgrade to CE. Again, their upgrade model persecutes the very customers they should be rewarding, i.e., they're rewarding the wrong behavior. What they are doing is encouraging people NOT to purchase. That's why so many don't purchase the new products, but wait for the Komplete update. It cost me dearly to learn that.


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## timestudios (Aug 30, 2020)

filipjonathan said:


> But that Variations on Paganini demo song sounds INCREDIBLE! Those runs! 😍


Hi. I agree! The runs sound amazing. Joshua Bell violin is also outstanding for runs (fingered & Bowed). I've attached a short demo. All the best.


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