# UAD Plugins and latency



## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

Hi guys!

I'm considering offloading my DAW with a UAD Satellite Octo. I know that the plugins sound great, but I'm a little concerned with latency since the data has to travel from the computer to the UAD box and back.

What are your experiences? Has it gotten any better?

Cheers!


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## JohnG (Sep 14, 2018)

If it's Thunderbolt connected, it's not the travel time, it's the plugins. 

I have that same box, and it's amazing how much processing power it has but, except for reverb (for which I pretty much ignore plugin delay while composing), I use Pro Tools' Delay Compensation when mixing. I do like the box; a nice improvement over my PCIe card. 

Have you checked out the Apollo? Expensive but boasts very low latency.


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## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

Wow! Thanks so much for the heads-up! Latency has always been the one thing that has held me back from going the UAD route, and if I understand correctly Apollo process in real-time.

Expensive yes, but I think I might bite the bullet.


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## jononotbono (Sep 14, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> Wow! Thanks so much for the heads-up! Latency has always been the one thing that has held me back from going the UAD route, and if I understand correctly Apollo process in real-time.
> 
> Expensive yes, but I think I might bite the bullet.



I tried out an Apollo Twin a few days ago. I played Guitar, using a Marshall UA Plugin and had various Compressors, EQs and Reverbs running and It blew my mind how great it was. I couldn't tell any noticeable latency. I am absolutely getting a UA Interface and some UAD2 Satellite's for further plugin processing. Even if you are working in a massive comping template, because the Unity preamps and UA processing is via DSP, you can still track things at very low latency using UAD2 plugins which is amazing!


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## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

Thanks!! Great to know.

I’m not sure if I understand correctly, but is it only when tracking that the Apollos shine with real-time processing? When running a composing template, are there any differences when it comes to latency between Satellite and Apollo?


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## jononotbono (Sep 14, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> Thanks!! Great to know.
> 
> I’m not sure if I understand correctly, but is it only when tracking that the Apollos shine with real-time processing? When running a composing template, are there any differences when it comes to latency between Satellite and Apollo?



Have no idea as I haven't bought it yet but considering so many professionals in the world uses UAD2 plugins and/or interfaces It's not a single concern I have.


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## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

Well, arguably UAD is most popular in the mixing world where latency doesn’t matter. Running a large template is somewhat different. I don’t want to wait two seconds for a patch to sound


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## jononotbono (Sep 14, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> Well, arguably UAD is most popular in the mixing world where latency doesn’t matter. Running a large template is somewhat different. I don’t want to wait two seconds for a patch to sound



Why would it? It runs on DSP. The plugins aren't native and therefore you can run massive templates and have low latency. You should try one out.


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## jononotbono (Sep 14, 2018)

This magical button in Cubase, "Constrain Delay Compensation" will work wonders with anything running on DSP.


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## jmars (Sep 14, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> Thanks!! Great to know.
> 
> I’m not sure if I understand correctly, but is it only when tracking that the Apollos shine with real-time processing? When running a composing template, are there any differences when it comes to latency between Satellite and Apollo?



There are major differences between the two.

Satellite is designed for mixing so it will impart noticeable latency if you try to monitor a record track through a UAD plugin. I have a few plugins (EMT 140, MXR Flanger, Fairchild) that live on Aux channels in my template and are hosted by my satellite card but I only feed these after I've tracked so there are no latency issues.

The Apollo is the only one that allows you to track and monitor through their plugins (or most of them) with near-zero latency. You can even do this while you track with VSTs. You just need to setup your VST to send out of your DAW to one of the Apollo's virtual mixer channels and then you can apply their plugins and monitor the affected sound in real time from the UA Console.


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## jononotbono (Sep 14, 2018)

Sorry, when I said “why would it?” That sounds really rude haha! I didn’t mean anything by that. Such is internet nuance.


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## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

jmars said:


> There are major differences between the two.
> 
> Satellite is designed for mixing so it will impart noticeable latency if you try to monitor a record track through a UAD plugin. I have a few plugins (EMT 140, MXR Flanger, Fairchild) that live on Aux channels in my template and are hosted by my satellite card but I only feed these after I've tracked so there are no latency issues.
> 
> The Apollo is the only one that allows you to track and monitor through their plugins (or most of them) with near-zero latency. You can even do this while you track with VSTs. You just need to setup your VST to send out of your DAW to one of the Apollo's virtual mixer channels and then you can apply their plugins and monitor the affected sound in real time from the UA Console.


Thanks so much for the clarification. So when running a massive template and not tracking through the UAD plugins, there are no difference latency wise between those two?


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## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> Sorry, when I said “why would it?” That sounds really rude haha! I didn’t mean anything by that. Such is internet nuance.


All good, no rudeness detected


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## jmars (Sep 14, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> Thanks so much for the clarification. So when running a massive template and not tracking through the UAD plugins, there are no difference latency wise between those two?



Yeah, that’s right.


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## JohnG (Sep 14, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> Thanks so much for the clarification. So when running a massive template and not tracking through the UAD plugins, there are no difference latency wise between those two?



No -- there is a huge difference. That's what he was trying to say (and I think _did_ say) but possibly said it in such a thorough way the sense got a little obscured.



jmars said:


> There are major differences between the two.
> 
> Satellite is designed for mixing so *it will impart noticeable latency* if you try to monitor a record track through a UAD plugin. ....
> 
> *The Apollo is the only one that allows you to track and monitor through their plugins (or most of them) with near-zero latency.*



If you want to write with zero latency, the Apollo appears to be the ticket.


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## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

So when running a massive template and not tracking through the UAD plugins, there are no difference latency wise between those two?


jmars said:


> Yeah, that’s right.







JohnG said:


> No -- there is a huge difference. That's what he was trying to say (and I think _did_ say) but possibly said it in such a thorough way the sense got a little obscured.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to write with zero latency, the Apollo appears to be the ticket.



Sorry guys, I'm a little confused! But I really appreciate the help!


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## jmars (Sep 14, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> So when running a massive template and not tracking through the UAD plugins, there are no difference latency wise between those two?
> 
> 
> Sorry guys, I'm a little confused! But I really appreciate the help!



Just to clarify- there is no difference between the two as far as hosting UAD plugins in your DAW session and not tracking through those plugins. They both impart some latency by just being in your session but your DAW should compensate for that.

If you find yourself in an overdub situation where you have a bunch of active UAD plugins in your session and you notice the latency (even though you are not tracking through UAD plugins), that's when things get tricky. I believe you can use "Constrain Time Delay" (as Jono suggested above) to help bypass any delay compensation while overdubbing. But it all depends on your tracking/monitoring setup.

Hope that helps!


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## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

I think I’m starting to understand 

Real life scenario; I have a session with a couple of UAD plugins on the master bus, plugins that introduce latency with a Satellite Octo. Will UAD Apollo, on the other hand, let me record an overdub from Kontakt without any noticeable latency?


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## jmars (Sep 14, 2018)

jmars said:


> Yeah, that’s right.



Just to clarify- this is also assuming you aren’t doing overdubs. If you setup your template with UAD plugins on active busses and try to live track a vst (even if it’s not through a UAD plugin), you will encounter latency as the DAW has to compensate for the delay of the active UAD plugins in your session. It really all depends on how you are monitoring your mix and monitoring your record tracks. The UA console basically makes it so you never have to worry about these things but you only get that with an Apollo interface.


JohannesR said:


> I think I’m starting to understand
> 
> Real life scenario; I have a session with a couple of UAD plugins on the master bus, plugins that introduce latency with a Satellite Octo. Will UAD Apollo, on the other hand, let me record an overdub from Kontakt without any noticeable latency?



Yes but it would require some clever routing in the Apollo Console app. It’s probably best to leave off any pugins from the master until you are done with tracking


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## JohnG (Sep 14, 2018)

jmars said:


> Just to clarify- this is also assuming you aren’t doing overdubs. If you setup your template with UAD plugins on active busses and try to live track a vst (even if it’s not through a UAD plugin), you will encounter latency as the DAW has to compensate for the delay of the active UAD plugins in your session. It really all depends on how you are monitoring your mix and monitoring your record tracks. The UA console basically makes it so you never have to worry about these things but you only get that with an Apollo interface.
> 
> 
> Yes but it would require some clever routing in the Apollo Console app. It’s probably best to leave off any pugins from the master until you are done with tracking



Dude -- do you know what you're talking about? Because you are giving a lot of advice that seems to be different from what I've read from others. The Apollo is much more expensive, but everyone says it has only like 3ms of latency even when running plugins.

By contrast, the Satellite definitely introduces substantial latency when you put in plugins; you can run a lot of them, but the latency is there.

You seem like a nice fellow and I'm not trying to have a go at you personally, but I can't reconcile what you are writing with what everyone else with experience of the Apollo says.

I haven't read anything about a need for "some clever routing in the Apollo Console app." I'm not saying it doesn't, but nobody else says that. As I understand it, that's why the Apollo costs so much.


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## jmars (Sep 14, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Dude -- do you know what you're talking about? Because you are giving a lot of advice that seems to be different from what I've read from others. The Apollo is much more expensive, but everyone says it has only like 3ms of latency even when running plugins.
> 
> By contrast, the Satellite definitely introduces substantial latency when you put in plugins; you can run a lot of them, but the latency is there.
> 
> ...



I own an Apollo twin, an Apollo rack and a quad core Satellite box. I’m just speaking from experience. Not sure what information you have read... 

The sub 3ms latency is only available when you track or monitor thru their plugins in the Console app. This latency voodoo does not extend to your DAW. But technically yes, you can achive near-zero latency with plugins on your master bus using the Apollo- that would require routing your master bus out from your DAW to a virtual channel in the Console app and applying any UAD plugins (and only UAD plugins) at that point. You would also have to route whatever track you are tracking out your DAW and to another virtual track in the Console App. Not exactly straight forward.

Just watch the videos on UA’s Youtube channel for the best explanations


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## JohannesR (Sep 14, 2018)

Thanks guys!

Really, I think you both are on the same page. I dropped UA an email, an they wrote back (almost immediately);

«You'll get better results with Apollo X. The Console program will let you route your virtual instruments through virtual channels, allowing for low-latency UAD plug-in processing. Console is not available with Satellite devices.»


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## tmhuud (Sep 14, 2018)

UA also has a great FB group. Your best off there for info.


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## nik (Sep 15, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> This magical button in Cubase, "Constrain Delay Compensation" will work wonders with anything running on DSP.


hey can u explain toe me what this button does exactly? please,please


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## ThomasL (Sep 15, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Really, I think you both are on the same page. I dropped UA an email, an they wrote back (almost immediately);
> 
> «You'll get better results with Apollo X. The Console program will let you route your virtual instruments through virtual channels, allowing for low-latency UAD plug-in processing. Console is not available with Satellite devices.»


UA Support is great, BUT...

This statement is somewhat false as it would require you to host your VSTs outside of the DAW and route them via Virtual 1+2 or 3+4 (on a Apollo Silverface like mine) to get into Console. And then you'd also need to send MIDI out from the DAW to the standalone. Very "clunky" and not something I'd do.

I have an Apollo FW Quad, a FW Quad Satellite and a Quad PCIe card. For "optimal" usage the manual states that I should have set 512 samples of latency. I can go down to 128 sometimes (depending on project load).

Where the UAD-plugins shine is in the mix, sure. BUT! When running loads of VSTs that hogs a fair bit of CPU you are helped by the UAD DSP taking care of some processing.

Where the Apollo shines is when you have a fairly large arrangement going on and you need some vocals (for example). Just track away with ≈ 2.4 ms delay and you can even send some UAD reverb to the singer (which seems to help any singer I've ever recorded  ).

So, lower latency for VSTs? Nah, that's not entirely true (BUT it also means that you can have a lower latency since the native CPU is not used as much). Lower for tracking? Absolutely! Running larger projects? Yes since the UAD DSP offloads the native processor.

In all, it really depends on your workflow and how you'd like to work. If I need to add something (VST-wise) after I started mixing I simply turn off the plugins causing latency and record what I need and then back to mix again. If I need to add anything acoustic I just record it.


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## JohannesR (Sep 15, 2018)

ThomasL said:


> UA Support is great, BUT...
> 
> This statement is somewhat false as it would require you to host your VSTs outside of the DAW and route them via Virtual 1+2 or 3+4 (on a Apollo Silverface like mine) to get into Console. And then you'd also need to send MIDI out from the DAW to the standalone. Very "clunky" and not something I'd do.
> 
> ...



THANKS!!


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## mixtur (Sep 15, 2018)

nik said:


> hey can u explain toe me what this button does exactly? please,please


It temporarily disables any plugins that causes latency, across the full audio processing path. You’re just suppose to use it during tracking

https://steinberg.help/cubase_pro_a...struments_constrain_delay_compensation_c.html


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## gsilbers (Sep 15, 2018)

I found the uad plugins to be on par with other developers.
I have the satélite pcie card and the latency was just too much to use on a non mix session. Since I mix as I go and computers have enough dsp nowadays and other plugin los are as good... I didn’t find it at all appealing or useful. Even though that’s not what the majority of people think... oh well.
On the other hand, the Apollo (or audio interface) that does dsp when recording into it does sound interesting as that opens up a few cool things like tracking electric guitars w no latency and having mic preamps emulation for mics.
All in all I find it a little pricey to have a dsp audio interface or dsp for plugins. Converters and I/o is like other interfaces and I already had protools hd system back in the day and my days wasting money on external dsp are over.
Uad branding is extremely popular so o know I’m in the minority here but I guessed it’s a forum for sharing opinions and since I’ve been dealing w proaudio stuff since 1999 maybe someone will find it useful. But what I’ve learned is that people buy things for different reasons and most of them emotional reasons. There aren’t that many audio interfaces In the market, and if dsp helps you in any way and the amount of i\o is what you need then go for it. 
Hopefully the amount of dsp and plugin support lasts you more than my satellite which had like 8 stereo instances of plugins (that I remember). To each it’s own of course... I just thought to share a little different perspective.


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## JohannesR (Sep 16, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> I have the satélite pcie card and the latency was just too much to use on a non mix session.



How bad is it? Are there any latency charts out there somewhere?

One thing I don’t quite understand; as @JohnG mentioned there is no added “travel time” latency going back and forth between the satellite when connected via TB - and the latency comes from the plugins themselves. On the other hand, Apollo X can process audio with near zero latency. Why the latency when mixing? It doesn’t make any sense to me.

I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.


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## gsilbers (Sep 16, 2018)

JohannesR said:


> How bad is it? Are there any latency charts out there somewhere?
> 
> One thing I don’t quite understand; as @JohnG mentioned there is no added “travel time” latency going back and forth between the satellite when connected via TB - and the latency comes from the plugins themselves. On the other hand, Apollo X can process audio with near zero latency. Why the latency when mixing? It doesn’t make any sense to me.
> 
> I’m just trying to wrap my head around this.



i have the 1st (or 2nd) Pcie card so i coudnt compare and my mac is older so everyones system will be a bit different. latency depends on the plugin. 

I think what john is saying about thunderbolt is in page 613 of the uad manual:
http://media.uaudio.com/support/downloads/UAD_Plug-Ins_Manual_v84.pdf
and page 74 of the system manual 
http://media.uaudio.com/support/downloads/UAD_System_Manual_v8.pdf


there used to be a UAD plugin chart with the delay each plugin gave. but my point of view is that when you are mixing with UAD card there are no issues. its good. 
but if you have a big session with a ton of stuff and uad plugins. and try to load a new piano sample instrument and you play the piano instrument you will suddenly feel there is latency because the DAW is delaying all the sound of everything but you your playing is realtime so from hitting the keyboard to listening the audio of that sample or the whole session when playing is diferent. 
You will have to do more research on your end about what john said and see how it fits your system and the uad you want to get. im sure there are a gazillion posts and videos about it. try looking at everything in the last year two. that tech changes and updates fix stuff or not... etc.


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## JohannesR (Sep 16, 2018)

Thanks, yes, I’m beginning to understand that the topic is very complex.


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## JohannesR (Sep 17, 2018)

I just thought I'd let you know that UAD support got back to me again with an important clarification:

"For plug-ins within a DAW, latency will be roughly identical whether using an Apollo or a Satellite."


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