# Commercial compositions



## hbuus (Nov 16, 2010)

I think members who get paid by developers to write music using their libraries should not be able to post one mp3 after another in the Members Composition section. Instead these mp3s should be posted in the Commercial Annoucements section, or perhaps better, in a new category name Commercial Compositions, which either way would be subjected to the same rules as for commercial annoucements, i.e. you can only post once a month if you are not an advertiser here. 

Really, the way it is now, posting mp3s you've been paid to write by a developer is quite simply a way of short-circuiting the way things work here on VI Control.
You can only advertise once a month, yet you can post a zillion mp3s which everybody knows is affiliated with a certain sample library developer. It's just not right.

Best, 
Henrik


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## hbuus (Nov 16, 2010)

Ed, I see no problem with that either.
What I'm talking about is the constant flow of VSL demos made by primarily Guy Bacos. These are commercial demos and should be treated as such.

Best,
Henrik


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## Mike Greene (Nov 16, 2010)

That's an interesting thought. I can't say I'm really bothered when a commercial demo is posted here. In fact, I like seeing a killer VSL or LASS or HS demo from time to time, especially if it's a library I already own. It's kinda inspirational.

But then again, I don't spend a lot of time in the Members Compositions section, so maybe it does clutter things. And it is kinda against the spirit of what the section is, at least if commercial demos are becoming a regular occurrence.

I do wonder, though, if this is something that's really happening very often?

<EDIT> I just looked and indeed, Guy does post a *lot* of songs. Whether they're VSL or not, I don't know, but that is a lot of posts. I could see how that might be annoying.


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## bryla (Nov 16, 2010)

I for one thinks that it is too much. Not that it bothers me per se, but the result is: I don't check his things out anymore... I don't think Guy wanted this effect.


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## madbulk (Nov 16, 2010)

I always operate out of the portal page, so to me it's irrelevant. 
I think Guy walks the line very thoughtfully and respectfully, under the circumstances. It's not an easy call. Gotta draw lines somewhere, true enough.


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## germancomponist (Nov 16, 2010)

I have no problem with Guy`s postings. 

I like to listen to his compositions what are mostly very cool, good and/or special. If he would also use other libraries than VSL his compositions would sound better here and there, for sure.  But it is always a pleasure for me to listen to.

Hey, where's the real problem? o/~


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## madbulk (Nov 16, 2010)

The problem is boards need rules. But I'm sure Frederick is not saying to himself this morning, "Hey! When did Guy start posting all these downloadable instrument demos??! I had no idea!"
I'm getting a little curious though where the line is.


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## chimuelo (Nov 16, 2010)

Well at least he is posting.
I enjoy a theory comp forum of alumni where only real instruments are used, I also enjoy a forum where only synths are used.

In all honesty this forum needs someone motivated. The other forums I share at have dozens of qualtiy copyrighted pieces everyday.
Completed songs too, not just trailer mock ups.

I hope he continues, and since I never really listen too much here as I prefer completed work, now I will go check it out.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.


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## José Herring (Nov 16, 2010)

Guy's post are a great way to hear what VSL is up to. I got no problems. I'm an ardent and outspoken VSL hater and his demos have almost convinced me to get some VSL stuff. Frederick's piece has me on the verge of buying some VSL brass libraries. Isn't that what this forum is for anyway?

For me, Guy's demos have become somewhat of an asset around here.


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## synergy543 (Nov 16, 2010)

This forum needs more creative original compositions not less!

How did it get to the point where we start attacking others sharing their creative work? Do we really want to tear each other apart like this? The entire premise of this forum is "musicians helping musicians" and what better way to do it than sharing compositions that each has created and discussing them?

Isn't getting paid what almost all composers aspire to do? Banning any composition for which the composer gets paid seems like a way to create a pretty boring forum.


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## madbulk (Nov 16, 2010)

This isn't about Guy or VSL per se. This is about what's appropriate. Nobody is attacking anybody.


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## germancomponist (Nov 16, 2010)

madbulk @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> This isn't about Guy or VSL per se. This is about what's appropriate. Nobody is attacking anybody.



If anyone thinks it would be too much, there is no must to listen to.... . :roll: 

So what? o-[][]-o


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## mverta (Nov 16, 2010)

Christ, the lack of community support here sucks sometimes...

Guy's pieces are no more or less advertisements for products than the other 99% of Stormdrum/Symphobia postings are, except his stuff isn't just the same repetitive crap over and over. Who gives a shit if VSL hired him to do demos? Why wouldn't they? The man has actual chops! So get off your box, off his nuts, and stop reading his threads if you're so panty-bunched about it. The last thing we need is to discourage good work.


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## synergy543 (Nov 16, 2010)

+110%

That's what I was trying to say, but Mike says it so much more colorfully!


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## Ed (Nov 16, 2010)

Guy Bacos is a bit annoying sometimes, but *not *because he posts VSL demos. So I dont really care.


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## bryla (Nov 16, 2010)

you guys are right.... sorry!

it's time to wake up


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## Mike Greene (Nov 16, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Christ, the lack of community support here sucks sometimes...


Say what?

Just because people have opinions that differ from yours doesn't mean there's a "lack of community support" here. Seriously, that line pisses me off.

As does the "panty-bunched" line, or the "same repetitive crap over and over" line, which I find a strange thing to say, considering the point you're trying to make about community support and not attacking people.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I agree that there are too many VSL demos. I honestly don't know how I feel about commercial demos. But it's a thoughtful topic that I would like to think we could be a little calmer about discussing.


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## hbuus (Nov 16, 2010)

My main point, which most of you have not addresses, is this:

VI Control has rules for commercial annoucements.
You can only make one pr. month unless you're advertising here.
But there are no rules for mp3 demos, even when they are in fact just advertisements for a company.
When there's a new posting by Guy Bacos, you just know it's an advertisement for VSL, as he's being paid to write those demos solely using VSL.
Fair enough, but shouldn't VSL abide by the same rules of advertisement here on VI Control as other developers?
Where's the logic?

That said, another point would be that it's slightly annoying to see the Members Composition section being used as an advertisement section for VSL demos, because it steals attention from the real Members Compositions. Sure, if Guy Bacos posted a demo once in a while, nobody would care, certainly not me. But as it is, the guy is pretty much spam-posting new demos to the section, burying the real demos doing so.

Best,
Henrik


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## lux (Nov 16, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Christ, the lack of community support here sucks sometimes...
> ...



i agree with Mike on this. While i consider that no express rules have really been broken, i see no reason why the topic cannot be discussed, as Henrik's doubts deserve at least some consideration, even when disagreeing with it. Mike Verta's tones are clearly out of place and uncalled for.


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## chimuelo (Nov 16, 2010)

Anger and depression are excellent motivators for compositition.
Maybe we'll get some more excerpts leaning towards extra dissonance..
Too many happy string and horn excerpts.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 16, 2010)

hbuus @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Fair enough, but shouldn't VSL abide by the same rules of advertisement here on VI Control as other developers?
> Where's the logic?



The logic is that every developer can launch paid compositions and mp3s. Perhaps more of them should. It is a good thing in my eyes.


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## wst3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Ed @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Guy Bacos is a bit annoying sometimes, but *not *because he posts VSL demos. So I dont really care.



The only thing that annoys me about Guy is that he is quite good at what he does, and I'm not<G>!

Add my vote to the pile that thinks it's OK for someone that creates demos for a library, whether compensated or not, to post them here. I still find it interesting to listen to what others are doing. Heck, in some cases it is even educational.

I do understand the point made by the OP, I just don't think any developer has come anywhere near the line of crassly using the member's composition section as a shill.

If it gets to that point we'll had a lot of (I hope) really good demos to listen to.

As a couple of other folks have mentioned, not all the demos are great - which is, I think, part of the reason the section exists. There are some composers that I listen to almost every time they post. Actually, traffic is low enough there that I listen to the majority of them... I just might not listen all the way through, and that applies to all the folks that post there, it's a matter of whether or not the demo captures my imagination or not. From that perspective you really can't have too many postings...


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## José Herring (Nov 16, 2010)

chimuelo @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Anger and depression are excellent motivators for compositition.
> Maybe we'll get some more excerpts leaning towards extra dissonance..
> Too many happy string and horn excerpts.



:lol: 

Don't forget the pounding drums underneath the happy strings and horns. Because nothing screams, "Joyful" like the sound of a large bodhran patch pounding away FFF with tablas on top. :mrgreen: 

Oh, and that was a joke, less I be accused of hampering the level of "community support" here. So bang away VIer's.

On a more serious note. I like the fact that Guy isn't doing trailer music. He should post more.


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## dcoscina (Nov 16, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Christ, the lack of community support here sucks sometimes...
> 
> Guy's pieces are no more or less advertisements for products than the other 99% of Stormdrum/Symphobia postings are, except his stuff isn't just the same repetitive crap over and over. Who gives a [email protected]#t if VSL hired him to do demos? Why wouldn't they? The man has actual chops! So get off your box, off his nuts, and stop reading his threads if you're so panty-bunched about it. The last thing we need is to discourage good work.



I agree. If you don't want to hear Guy's music, skip the thread. Not sure why complaining about it is necessary. As I mentioned before, some developers have "product demos" which have their own sound and are a glowing product endorsement. I honestly don't think of Guy's pieces in the same way. I like his music, first and foremost. 

As for what Mike said about the repetitive stuff, I also do get what he means. Not to be mean but there's an awful lot of big minor chord, R-C epic power anthem theme stuff with pounding drums demos and after awhile, I just tune out because it's not my cup of tea. I like Guy's music because it focusses on melody, harmony, form, and all the components of music that attracted me to it in the first place. So obviously I get a little concerned when someone advocates to minimize his output on this forum when his style and sound are less proliferated than other styles. 

I'm not saying he's the only one. I always enjoy listening to Alex Temple's stuff too. It's inspiring. And Mr. Verta's as well. And Frederick's (not just saying that either- I still remember that beautiful choral piece he composed used Miroslav Philharmonik).


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## dcoscina (Nov 16, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> On a more serious note. I like the fact that Guy isn't doing trailer music. He should post more.



I agree. It's not a sound or style that we are treated to all that often IMO. 

Jose, I am a little surprised about your dislike of VSL products though. I guess for Hollywood styled stuff EW stuff is good but to be honest, I barely use their stuff anymore. Mostly VSL, Project SAM, Omnisphere, LASS with some Hollywood Strings (okay that's East West). I like their stuff but just don't find it realistic enough for finished product material. Solo winds and brass on VSL kill everything IMO. Epic Horns are also da bomb.


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## José Herring (Nov 16, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > On a more serious note. I like the fact that Guy isn't doing trailer music. He should post more.
> ...



I'm warming up to epic horns. I'm in love with Symphobia 2 and lose sleep over what to get first, HS or Symphobia.

Right now I'm using SISS with EW and a smattering of VSL for WW. And, I do my own percussion stuff, but still use EW for ochestral perc.

That being said, I'm pretty sick of my template. And over the next few months or year will be completely revamping everything as soon as I get my next computer built.

I've never liked the tone of VSL strings or brass really. Though I do mix a bit of VSL brass along with some custom stuff with EW and it makes it a whole lot better. So there may be a need for VSL. I'm trying to decide.

But, HS and Symphobia 2 are on my must have list. I just wish there were more libraries recorded in a decent sounding room that split horns up 2+2+2+2 and had two separate solo horns. This is so integral to the way I think about brass and horn arrangements that I have a tough time thinking in any other way. I mean really sample developers! Who uses 8 horns at a time all the friggin' time! :wink:


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## mverta (Nov 16, 2010)

As some of you know, I maintain a parallel career as a visual effects artist, as part of the visual effects community, and I can tell you that by comparison, this community is unresponsive, unsupportive, and largely unhelpful. 

If you look at the top visual effects forums, which are parallel in nature to this one, you see two dynamics: 1) Users are far more open, sharing of techniques, responsive and, yes, helpfully critical, yielding an average level of craftsmanship which puts this place to shame because 2) the visual effects community is thriving, and you won't work unless you're great. And all that good work out there has allowed visual effects to be valued monetarily 10 - 100x moreso than music. Films are sold on the fx now; you don't hear them trying to form unions to stop getting screwed.

Head on over to CGTalk sometime and see what the average level of work being turned out by teenagers in slavic countries is, for a jaw-dropping perspective on what happens when a craft is thriving. By contrast, WIPs there are often constantly updated, sharing every part of the creative process, and inviting dialog so others can learn - which they do. By contrast, 99% of the artists doing the work you see in every blockbuster film, started there, learned there, were recruited from there, and post there. Including myself. When I was a newbie, I learned more in a week on those forums than I'd have learned in a year on this one. Compared to my music, it was a short curve from newbie until the day Lucasfilm recruited me to work on Star Wars projects. And it was completely because of the support and usefulness of the community. 

Nobody there is holding on to their one precious "setting" or plug-in to survive, and thus desperately guarding any "secrets." They/we need to be able to work in multiple contexts on multiple platforms, independent of the software, and that's why the craft is growing. 

In that community, it'd be like us regularly trading sketches and scores with Williams and Silvestri. That's not an exaggeration.

Now, conduct-wise, over there, some people are respectful, others are not, but mostly conduct takes a distant backseat to the context and a discussion of the craft, which is how it should be. 

Were that the case here, then I suppose I'd feel differently about all this faux righteous indignation over conduct. But until then I'd humbly suggest you stop worrying about that and get to work. Were 8 out of 10 pieces posted here possessed of Guy's level of craft, then I guess we could move on to the other things, which until then seem like things people get all huffy about because there isn't much to discuss, craft-wise. You want the i's dotted and the t's crossed; have something profound to say, first.

_Mike


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 16, 2010)

hbuus @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> I think members who get paid by developers to write music using their libraries should not be able to post one mp3 after another in the Members Composition section. Instead these mp3s should be posted in the Commercial Annoucements section, or perhaps better, in a new category name Commercial Compositions, which either way would be subjected to the same rules as for commercial annoucements, i.e. you can only post once a month if you are not an advertiser here.
> 
> Really, the way it is now, posting mp3s you've been paid to write by a developer is quite simply a way of short-circuiting the way things work here on VI Control.
> You can only advertise once a month, yet you can post a zillion mp3s which everybody knows is affiliated with a certain sample library developer. It's just not right.
> ...



As always Henrik, you're entitled to your opinion. I respectfully disagree however. I for one have no problem with Guy posting his pieces and it appears that I'm not alone in that sentiment. Another point is that it seems lately that it takes a relatively brave heart to post pieces of any kind in the member's compositions probably because of the dynamic of the forum itself. Personally I don't want to discourage anyone from posting there and it would be blind on my part to approach it otherwise in my opinion. So honestly if anyone wants to post in member's compositions, Guy included, let them - in fact, I sincerely encourage it.


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## José Herring (Nov 16, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> As some of you know, I maintain a parallel career as a visual effects artist, as part of the visual effects community, and I can tell you that by comparison, this community is unresponsive, unsupportive, and largely unhelpful.
> 
> If you look at the top visual effects forums, which are parallel in nature to this one, you see two dynamics: 1) Users are far more open, sharing of techniques, responsive and, yes, helpfully critical, yielding an average level of craftsmanship which puts this place to shame because 2) the visual effects community is thriving, and you won't work unless you're great. And all that good work out there has allowed visual effects to be valued monetarily 10 - 100x moreso than music. Films are sold on the fx now; you don't hear them trying to form unions to stop getting screwed.
> 
> ...



I was given you the benefit of the doubt all these months. Now I've made up my mind. 

If you have such disdain for this place, it's members, ect.... then why post here? I for one wouldn't be that sad to see you go.

best,

Jose


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## mverta (Nov 16, 2010)

Jose, you have simultaneously underestimated both my protective love of the art, and my willingness to share and encourage others to improve. Those are what motivate me to post here.

If that's the kind of thing you like less of in your life, then yes, you'd be best to steer clear.


_Mike


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## José Herring (Nov 16, 2010)

Mike,

You're like a wolf in sheep's clothing imo. Portending to be helpful, but yet I've seen your post on this forum and others and have viciously ripped apart, people that I consider, not only professional in their craft and demeanor, but also are pretty dear friends of mine. Namely John Graham and John Debney. So yes, I have steered clear of your post here. Until just now where it was practically unavoidable as I became involved in the discussion early on.

As far as a "protective love of the craft" I can respect that. On the other hand, just because somebody is doing something new and or different than what you consider "craftsmanship" doesn't make it less or inferior.

_José


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## lux (Nov 16, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Jose, you have simultaneously underestimated both my protective love of the art, and my willingness to share and encourage others to improve. Those are what motivate me to post here.
> 
> If that's the kind of thing you like less of in your life, then yes, you'd be best to steer clear.
> 
> ...



your protective love of the art you like, you mean. Probably all the rest is "that crap all over"


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## mverta (Nov 16, 2010)

Both of you guys are full of it, and I hope you know it and are just being contentious because you don't like me. If there was great musicianship behind the stuff being turned out today, I'd be the first to say so and embrace it. Music today is what's left when there isn't a lot of music in the musicians, but there is a whole lot of freakin' software. You know damn well there are TONS of button-pushers out there, literally leaning on one key on the keyboard, while a sample (created by actual musicians) plays. These glorified human playback devices have A-list film credits more often than not. 

Oh, as for John Graham, I criticized his misrepresentation of a live piece as live, when it wasn't - it was a hybrid. I was right. Musically, I actually thought the piece was pretty cool. I was right about that, too. 

As for John Debney: he doesn't give a crap about my opinion, for reasons I'm sure IMDB would make perfectly clear. I assume he hasn't asked you to come to his defense against dudes on the internet. Again, I might suggest you find better uses of your time, but that's just a suggestion from the ether.


_Mike


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## madbulk (Nov 16, 2010)

wow, this thread sure went weird.


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## mverta (Nov 16, 2010)

Actually, I think it went pretty predictably, when someone tries to shut down a talented member's contributions for indefensible reasons. 

_Mike


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## chimuelo (Nov 16, 2010)

I now believe the OP is a paid composer by VSL who purposely drew attention to the artist to highlight his talent and upcoming sales at VSL for the Holidays.
Excellent marketing skills.


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## José Herring (Nov 16, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Both of you guys are full of it, and I hope you know it and are just being contentious because you don't like me. If there was great musicianship behind the stuff being turned out today, I'd be the first to say so and embrace it. Music today is what's left when there isn't a lot of music in the musicians, but there is a whole lot of freakin' software. You know damn well there are TONS of button-pushers out there, literally leaning on one key on the keyboard, while a sample (created by actual musicians) plays. These glorified human playback devices have A-list film credits more often than not.
> 
> _Mike



Don't know you well enough to decide if I like you or not. I certainly won't be the one to judge people on forum behavior.

As far as button pushers are concerned I wouldn't be too sure. I actually did a stint with a group of composers that I was surely convinced were button pushers and I found quite the opposite. I found people using the technology expressively and according to their own talents. So I changed my mind. 

As far as Debney is concerned of course he didn't ask me to defend him. I wouldn't even show him what you posted. I just think that instead of comparing and contrasting him to Silverstri and calling Debney a "lesser composer" of which he is certainly not, I would have found a less harmful way of expressing my opinion.

That's all. I had a day off today, but tomorrow I'll go back to ignoring certain posters like I usually do.

Jose


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## mverta (Nov 16, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Don't know you well enough to decide if I like you or not. I certainly won't be the one to judge people on forum behavior.



Give me a shot, Jose - I may grow on you. Like a fungus or something. But whatever your final decision, your quote above gets you 10 points in my book. If more people had that perspective, the internet would be a happier place. Or at least would have 1/1000th usages of the word, "Nazi."

_Mike


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## José Herring (Nov 16, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> josejherring @ Tue Nov 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't know you well enough to decide if I like you or not. I certainly won't be the one to judge people on forum behavior.
> ...



Gotta admit that one made me laugh. :lol:


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## Mike Greene (Nov 16, 2010)

madbulk @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> wow, this thread sure went weird.


Now *there's* an understatement! :mrgreen:


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## Chrislight (Nov 16, 2010)

hbuus @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> My main point, which most of you have not addresses, is this:
> 
> VI Control has rules for commercial annoucements.
> You can only make one pr. month unless you're advertising here.
> ...



Just for the record, VSL IS a paid advertiser and has been for a very long time. Also, just to set the record straight, in fairness to our paid advetisers, we only allow one posting every 90 days in the Commercial section from non-advertisers.


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## rabiang (Nov 16, 2010)

I am with mverta all the way on this one. share more, help more, discuss more etc. openness in general improves both the artist and the art. i dont care if there is a monetary element there sometimes. trying to speculate on ppl's motives and base judgment on an artist based on that will give you heaps of trouble in art in general. go guy, go!


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## rJames (Nov 16, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Were that the case here, then I suppose I'd feel differently about all this faux righteous indignation over conduct. But until then I'd humbly suggest you stop worrying about that and get to work. Were 8 out of 10 pieces posted here possessed of Guy's level of craft, then I guess we could move on to the other things, which until then seem like things people get all huffy about because there isn't much to discuss, craft-wise. You want the i's dotted and the t's crossed; have something profound to say, first.
> 
> _Mike



wow!


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## rJames (Nov 16, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Actually, I think it went pretty predictably, when someone tries to shut down a talented member's contributions for indefensible reasons.
> 
> _Mike



Indefensible reasons? I think the original post was more about orchestral sample companies advertising their products subtly by paying good midi mockup artists to create great mockups for the fanboys in musical forums to drool over and maybe even be tempted to buy.

Seems like a solid topic for a thread to me.

I could care less about it cause I can read, listen or not. But I have noticed that many of Guys threads even have the VSL instrument that is featured listed in the thread title.

I think you're going over the top, mike.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 17, 2010)

What on Earth is sinister about an instrument demo?! Of course the instrument is in the thread title, as it should be, so we know it's a commercial demo. If it sounds great - with Guy it almost invariably does - and it induces people to buy it... what's wrong with that? This is looking for problems where there aren't any.

Good Grief, Charlie Brown...


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## Hannes_F (Nov 17, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> As some of you know, I maintain a parallel career as a visual effects artist, as part of the visual effects community, and I can tell you that by comparison, this community is unresponsive, unsupportive, and largely unhelpful.
> 
> If you look at the top visual effects forums, which are parallel in nature to this one, you see two dynamics: 1) Users are far more open, sharing of techniques, responsive and, yes, helpfully critical, yielding an average level of craftsmanship which puts this place to shame because 2) the visual effects community is thriving, and you won't work unless you're great. And all that good work out there has allowed visual effects to be valued monetarily 10 - 100x moreso than music. Films are sold on the fx now; you don't hear them trying to form unions to stop getting screwed.
> 
> ...



Mike,

I thought that was a very interesting post. My question is however whether there are fundamental differences between audio and visuals regarding the perception of quality, and that changes the whole game.


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## munician (Nov 17, 2010)

As much as I admire the video community for their mutual support, I think there is something to be considered:

The CGI art form compared to the artform music is still in its infancy. And at the moment very few people are doing it. And get paid very well to do it. And people starting out doing it obviously have a good chance to break in and get paid well.

In that kind of let's-all-be-friends-environment it is pretty easy to be helpful.
The rules and standards, the perception of quality and esthetics - as Hannes said - have not really been set yet (as can be seen by the Harry Potter delay).

Music is literally thousands of years old, rules have been set for centuries, and everytime one is broken, discussions arise of the type Mike surely loves to engage in. And this IS necessary by the way.

Now, as we all know, the recent technological advancements have made it possible for many more people to "dabble" in music than ever before. The fight for the gig gets harder, the discussions get more substantial - and there is so much music around that sometimes I aks myself if I really have to add more of it.

Let's wait until this development happens within the CGI-community (I'm sure it will) and see, if everybody is still as supportive and nice to each other and shares their secrets. If there are any.


On topic: it's all a matter of degree, not of do or don't. 

I enjoy e.g. Guys contributions a lot, since they are on the highest level, and he openly marks them as VSL features. If there were too many, maybe a reorganisation of the forum would be necessary but personally I'm far from feeling flooded.

JJ


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## lux (Nov 17, 2010)

Good points JJ. 

Also i wonder if its that "friendly" community which is killing us, as more often visually trained guys judge with their ears where they shouldnt.

As a provocative point i'm not sure anymore that a supportive environement is a good thing today in the music world. As much as i consider having back the old labels behaviours a most important improvements into the record industry.

Probably its that "polite" and friendly approach which bends nice musicians to flatten down their abilities. Without being personal, and putting myself into the can as well, the Cinesamples announcement of another cinematic percussions library and the following plethora of nice musicians (the ability of many i've admired personally and privately more than once), chilling about how much they "needed" it, made me think a bit. I had the same reaction while opening the thread, like "hey, new banging stuff, i need those!". But, really we need those? or its just our flattened artistical sense which makes them essentials while theyre not?

Maybe Mike Verta has the points here and he's alone to speak. Maybe we're just faking too much "politeness" just to get the breadcrumbs falling in our mouth. Who can tell.

Luca


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 17, 2010)

Think it's worth pointing out that although there are some obvious clashes on the boards and some strong personalities, personally I've found scores of friendly, knowledgeable and helpful people at VI Control. And we're a very broad church, after all.

Don't do us all down too much!


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## George Caplan (Nov 17, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> Both of you guys are full of it, and I hope you know it and are just being contentious because you don't like me.
> _Mike




:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## SergeD (Nov 17, 2010)

A suggestion for demos.

Why just not put the library name in the thread title ? As example "VSL-A beautiful day" 

Ok, what's next...

SergeD


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## Lex (Nov 17, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Nov 16 said:


> You know damn well there are TONS of button-pushers out there, literally leaning on one key on the keyboard, while a sample (created by actual musicians) plays. These glorified human playback devices have A-list film credits more often than not.
> _Mike




Wow...Mike could you please point me to a A-level film score or two that fits this description?

thnx

Alex


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## dcoscina (Nov 17, 2010)

Mike, don't be surprised with the reactions here. These guys did a wonderful job of scaring off James Peterson (composer of The Red Canvas) a while back. I guess he wasn't "big time" enough to garner any respect. :roll:


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## juliansader (Nov 17, 2010)

Henrik brought up a valid point regarding the rules of the forum, but in the end it is the forum owners/moderators who determine the rules, and if the owners/moderators are happy, why should the rest ò  '   ÐÎH  '   ÐÎö  '   ÐÖñ  '   Ð×  '   ÐØñ  '   ÐÙ  '   ÐÚK  '   ÐÚQ  '   ÐÚ¨  '   ÐÛ  '   ÐÛ-  '   ÐÛS  '   ÐÝ   '   ÐÝ6  '   Ðá¼  '   Ðâ  '   Ðâg  '   Ðâ›  '   Ðã©  '   Ðã°  '   ÐãÆ  '   Ðãà  '   Ðåð  '   Ðæ"  '   Ðæ½  '   Ðæî  '   Ðçù  '   Ðè,  '   Ðéƒ  '   Ðé²  '   Ðéî  '   Ðë  '   Ðë¢  '   Ðì  '   Ðñv  '   ÐñÎ  '   ÐòM  '   Ðòr  '   Ðòï  '   ÐóU  '   ÐõÒ  '   Ðö¢  '   Ðûó  '   Ðü8  '   Ðüy  '   Ðü°  '   Ðý…  '   ÐýÅ  '   ÐýÖ  '   Ðýà  '   Ñ   '   Ñ Â  '   Ñ?  '   Ñ¯  '   Ñø  '   Ñ8


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## Dan Mott (Nov 17, 2010)

Sorry, but can someone explain the direct meaning of a 'button pusher'


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## autopilot (Nov 17, 2010)

"Button Pusher" 

You hold down a button and something like Omnisphere whirls around for the length of the cue.

Of course there is SOME skill in knowing which button to push


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## bryla (Nov 18, 2010)

I for one find it extremely creative to PROGRAM the synth so you can push one button. Most of the times 3 or 4 patches you build yourself can hold for a cue, but sometimes one is enough....


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 18, 2010)

Have to say, I can't think of an a-list button-pusher.


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## SergeD (Nov 18, 2010)

rayinstirling @ Wed Nov 17 said:


> SergeD @ Wed Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > A suggestion for demos.
> ...



Not at all Ray, it's the big brother eye watching this forum


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## Dan Mott (Nov 18, 2010)

I wonder what it would take to impress Mike verta.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 18, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> I wonder what it would take to impress Mike verta.



I think that answer is not difficult to find if you look up his orchestral mockups and live recordings. Highly impressive stuff.


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## juliansader (Nov 18, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Thu 18 Nov said:


> Dan-Jay @ Thu Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder what it would take to impress Mike verta.
> ...



It is not only his orchestral mockups that are impressively realistic. Take a look at his CG rendering of R2D2, which I discovered at CGTalk:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread. ... 3&t=920312
Wow!


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## mverta (Nov 19, 2010)

rJames @ Thu Nov 18 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Wed Nov 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, but can someone explain the direct meaning of a 'button pusher'
> ...



Acutally, that describes CG 10 years ago, when it was where vi music is, today. More on that soon...  I'm releasing a podcast next week when I get home about the absolutely 1:1, direct parallels between the art of CG and vi-music. They're almost identical. I think you'll enjoy what it says about where we are and where we're going... stay tuned.

_Mike


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## rJames (Nov 19, 2010)

Mike, before you get started with your comparison, let me say my 2¢ on the subject.

First off, I don't really want to seem dismissive of the CG community. I just took offense to your tone, language and your general disdain for VI-control.

My journey was reverse to yours. My first career was as a CG artist but it was back in the day where a graphic artist was an artist. It has evolved from a one man does it all career (sort of like a composer) to a team approach today. The team approach is as far from the life of a modern composer as it can be. (and is the reason that I am a composer today)

IMHO a composer is like an architect/artist. He envisions, strategises, creates, produces and then usually walks the streets looking for clients.

Today's CG artist is more like a construction worker who takes someone else's vision and divides it up among specialists who collaborate to create a finished product.

A violin player more parallels the job of a CG artist than a composer.

And I took great offense to your theory that CG artists are paid more than composers because of their level of craft.



> 1) Users are far more open, sharing of techniques, responsive and, yes, helpfully critical, yielding an average level of craftsmanship which puts this place to shame because 2) the visual effects community is thriving, and you won't work unless you're great. And all that good work out there has allowed visual effects to be valued monetarily 10 - 100x moreso than music.



If, in order to have a soundtrack of John Williams quality, you needed an army of construction workers, some producers would have it.

Basic principles of business are at work here, not valuation of craft. Supply and demand. The supply of realistic CG is small. Look at the credits to a CG movie. Sometimes there are 5 companies supplying the graphics. Each with tens to hundreds of employees.

Or look at budget. What was the cost of CG for Avatar? $50 million? more? How much was the music budget on that film? So how many composers get work on that film vs how many CG artists get work on that film? The two businesses have virtually no correlation any more. And it is a plain insult to say that filmmakers would value music more if it were of a higher level of craft.

There is a limited number of blockbuster films but only a handful of composers get that work. Unlike CG companies, these guys can work on more than one project at a time without hiring more employees. So, demand is further cut.

Regarding helpfulness on this forum. Again, I am the reverse of you. Here, I learned everything I know about midi mockup. 

...which is why I felt I had to step in and say something even though I could care less whether Guy posts cues or not.


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## mverta (Nov 19, 2010)

The role we end up playing as vfx artists at WETA or ILM on a given job is very different from what it takes to get hired. Most of us started as generalists, needing a broad range of skills, but even if you're just a lighting guy, within that discipline the comparison more than holds up. Ultimately, to be a lighting guy at WETA, you have to be great. There are a billion lighting guys. Sure, the lighting you do for The Hobbit may be for two shots out of 2000, but that's truly a separate point. I'm talking about the ways in which a community builds, supports, and reflects its individual members, and I maintain we could learn a few things from that community, that's all.

_Mike


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## rJames (Nov 19, 2010)

Mike, I'm not saying you're not great. Or that specialists were not once generalists; but that the CG industry and its community members is quite different that the music industry and its members.

Its a different mindset working as an individual artist vs working as a micro specialist (which is what it has evolved into in the CG industry.) There is nothing wrong with that.

Music is an individual artform, CG is an industry. I don't see parallels especially in the monetization aspect.

I was awed by your earliest mockup when we here at VI found it. I think you are an inspiring model of an artist.

But I think you owe VI-control an apology for your insensitive remarks.


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## wst3 (Nov 19, 2010)

[quote:100a4b4aa0="mverta @ Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:04 am"]Acutally, that describes CG 10 years ago, when it was where vi music is, today. More on that soon...  I'm releasing a podcast next week when I get home about the absolutely 1:1, direct parallels between the art of CG and vi-music. They're almost identical. I think you'll enjoy what it says about whereò  /   ¹æb  /   ¹æ  /   ¹ì¾  /   ¹í  /   ¹ï¡  /   ¹ïÎ  /   ¹ññ  /   ¹ò!  /   ¹ú'  /   ¹úi  /   ¹ý  /   ¹ýB  /   ¹ÿ³  /   ¹ÿÛ  /   ¹ÿò  /   º 	  /   ºH  /   º‚  /   ºé  /   º  /   º
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## NYC Composer (Nov 19, 2010)

tomgahagan @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> Somehow the baby got thrown out with the bath water!
> Sad!!!!
> 
> Perhaps it's time for an outsiders thoughts!
> ...



I think communities like this have always been, and will always be, a melange of attitudes, egos, helpfulness, tolerance, intolerance. I have no experience on CG forums, and I'm not sure they are relevant. Perhaps musicians are pricklier and more elitist than CG artists, I don't know. 

In general though, I believe music communities should try to be helpful, supportive and tolerant, while policing themselves in matters of politeness and respect (and without a heavy parental hand-kudos to Fred and the mods for a light touch here).


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## rJames (Nov 19, 2010)

Hey Tom, thanks for being about the only person who actually got my point about VI-control being too friendly and helpful and that it can't use any improvement.

So glad you didn't get sidetracked by all that stuff I said about the community of mathematician/artists who do todays CG being a bad analogy to a community of composers and musicians.

Or that I thought someone suggesting that music would be valued more by film producers if we composers just were better at our craft was totally off-base.

Next time I need someone to translate my somewhat vague ideas into clear terms, I'll give you a call.

:D or is it :evil: or maybe :roll: or ~o)


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## mverta (Nov 19, 2010)

I definitely think the level of craft in our business could use a significant boost, but I don't see that happening spontaneously; there has to be a need-force driving it. Right now, there is little. But I also notice that there seems to be a lot of hyper-sensitivity around here, which is totally incompatible with the cutthroat world of working professionally. If the discourse here gets you all worked up, the legion of people waiting to shred and interfere with your work waiting down the line will have you absolutely apoplectic, I suspect. The best way we can help each other is not with a lot of please and thank yous, but with exposed-jugular-sharing, brutal honesty, and brutal willingness to listen to criticism. These ideas are in no way incompatible with a supportive environment. In fact, it's the people who love you the most who would say the thing you need to hear, versus the thing you want to hear. There's no reason we shouldn't all try the soft-sell, first, but... 

_Mike


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## synergy543 (Nov 19, 2010)

Mike, I work with both music and graphics (MODO, Lightwave, Vue, AE, etc.) and I clearly understand what you are referring to regarding the way the two different groups communicate with each other. I doubt anyone here will really understand unless they've experienced both. Not only will it be hard for them to relate to (they'll resent your comments) but the chances of getting them to change is virtually nil. The cultures are very different.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 19, 2010)

mverta @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> If the discourse here gets you all worked up, the legion of people waiting to shred and interfere with your work waiting down the line will have you absolutely apoplectic, I suspect. The best way we can help each other is not with a lot of please and thank yous, but with exposed-jugular-sharing, brutal honesty, and brutal willingness to listen to criticism.


Wow. Your clients must be very, very different from mine.

But if you insist on "brutal honesty," then here goes: What's most important to success in this business is not willingness to be brutalized for the greater good of making our music better and better. It's not the ability to do the best mockup. It's not mastering music theory. What's most important to success is none of those things.

It's social skills. Just sayin'.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 19, 2010)

I love it most when others are hard on me when I show them some work I did. I need more of it, and I also want it.

This way, if those that are hard on you eventually tell you that they like a piece you did.... well... then I suppose that means you're on the right track.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 19, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> I love it most when others are hard on me when I show them some work I did. I need more of it, and I also want it.
> 
> This way, if those that are hard on you eventually tell you that they like a piece you did.... well... then I suppose that means you're on the right track.



The issue here isn't content, it's presentation. I have absolutely no problem, and indeed encourage, criticism of my work. Let me illustrate: what would your reaction be if after hearing a piece you wrote, someone made the comment "your work sucks and you're a talentless hack. I suggest you quit the business now and go into the burgeoning field of retail sales." ? Still like it when people are "hard on you"?


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## Mr. Anxiety (Nov 19, 2010)

I think both Mike V and Mike Greene have valid points. I've been doing this as a full time career as well and I believe I've had it pretty good in terms of how clients have "behaved" when working together. I also know that the composer becomes the most important guy on the team only when the film is in post. As soon as the premiere happens, they almost forget about you! Generating your own "applause" as I call it has been very important in keeping me on top of my game and not losing sight of the fact that I get to write music for a living; how lucky I must be. Not saying it's a thankless job all the time, but it certainly could feel that way if you analyze it. So having a thick skin for criticism, having great social skills to deal with all types of "film people", and keeping perspective on what you are there to do for the "team" is tantamount. 

My only issue with this forum is that I believe some of the group here are really looking for the "applause", and not really looking for critiques, even though they say they welcome all comments. The defensive nature of some the exchanges suggests that this is the case. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking out that proverbial pat on the back from a fellow composer, but to not be honest that this is what your after is annoying. So many people seem to want their critics to qualify their comments by submitting music so they can "evaluate" whether or not they should listen to their comments or not. This, to me, says they are after the "applause", and not that their string sound programming needs work. 

This forum is for all of us and everyone should just be up front about why they are here. Ask for comments, take them all in good and bad, and then move on. If you're looking for praise, then let it be known and see how it goes. 

Working in our rooms day in and day out by ourselves is really tough; it's not like a live gig where they let you know how you're doing after every song!

Over and out............

Mr A


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## clarkcontrol (Nov 19, 2010)

"your work sucks and you're a talentless hack"

Presentation-nah, it IS about content. Someone can say whatever they want and I would prefer the sugar free, please. They just have to back it up with a reason (content).

NYC, if you're statement was a preamble to a thorough dissection of the work in question then I'll answer for dan-jay and say yes. 

However, if that's all there is then I'd say the guy probably was scared about how good the music actually was. Or that they couldn't afford me and he's trying to drive down the price.

Content. Step up and give me a real reason.


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## mverta (Nov 19, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> what would your reaction be if after hearing a piece you wrote, someone made the comment "your work sucks and you're a talentless hack. I suggest you quit the business now and go into the burgeoning field of retail sales." ? Still like it when people are "hard on you"?



Absolutely! Yes! Learning to separate the valueless criticism from the valuable is a crucial skill. I've never actually gotten a comment like that, but I probably wouldn't give it any more consideration than a homeless crazy shouting at me on the street. But if that same feedback was followed by, "...where they don't have to write a decent melody," I might take this one piece and reflect.

@Mike Greene: You suggest a mutual exclusivity where none exists. You're right, being fun and charming and personable is crucial to the business. So is having a thick skin.

@synergy: Thanks... I'm going to give it a try, anyway 


_Mike


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## José Herring (Nov 19, 2010)

I've gotten harsh criticism and strong praise from 100's if not thousands of people musician and non musicians alike. Of the critique and praise I can count on one hand the ones that actually meant anything. And, that's no exaggeration.

It's easy to critique work aesthetically because it's not to your liking. Any talentless hack can do that. It's another thing to point out specific technical problems.

Personally I find that most people critique from their own biases which I find the least helpful at all. Everybody has their own aesthetic. And composers who critique on aesthetics alone usually have some stick up their butt about how "X" composer is so great because he uses the sharp 11 chord or something. But, the worst, imo is somebody who doesn't even know how to spell a minor chord trying to give an aesthetic critique. Those are the ones that usually come up with the, " you suck" type statements.

I honestly think that you learn best from trial and error rather than from going around to people asking for their approval of your work. On the other hand, the few guys that have actually been helpful were and are of tremendous help.

Of course I'm hardly one to stand on a pedestal on this issue. There are plenty of times when I've critiqued a work and instead of going into a long 3 page list of technical issues, I've just said basically, "It sucks". But at least I always preface it with, "imo, it sucks". Then I say that my opinion of somebody's work isn't worth a hill of beans. I've been beat out plenty of times by composers who's work I thought sucked, but the ones paying the money didn't seem to think so. :?


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## mverta (Nov 19, 2010)

Ahh, Jose! You've gotten to my core point: we need better feedback around here! I agree that lots of what we see is as you describe; it just doesn't HAVE to be that way. Like you, I get most of my feedback elsewhere. In fact, I figure that since the world isn't mostly musicians, but non-musicians, I'm best to gauge reaction from the average Joe, who can't even tell me exactly why a piece isn't connecting with him/her. And as for that catch-all excuse for why one should never listen to criticism ("It's all relative/subjective...") I've found there really is a 70-80% homogenous, unified opinion set out there to tap into. The overwhelming popularity of any one product, service, company, movie, etc., is proof of that. 

By the way, an interesting dynamic: I haven't gotten a lot of support in this thread; merely some (appreciated!). I have, however, gotten a _lot_ of support via PM and emails. That, to me, says everything. People send PM's because they don't trust the community with their opinions; they don't want to stand in the shit storm, frankly, which is what they expect they'll get. When that's the case; when there is a general level of distrust and suspicion; when the number of private replies greatly outnumbers the public replies, I think that says the community could use some serious reform. "Be the change..." as the man said. I, for one, am obviously willing to take the slings and arrows, but that's not entirely for selfless, lofty reasons. I don't consider myself or my opinions Gospel; if they're wise ones, I should be able to defend them against opposition. And by subjecting them to public debate, I have a chance at greater wisdom, even if it means learning that I'm an asshole, or whatever. That seems like a good thing to know. Just like posting music; if 150 replies later - replies with specific, defensible points - it's clear that nobody likes your melody, you know you should probably get to work on writing better melodies.


Oh, and at Greg (synergy543):


synergy543 @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> Your approach, you must admit, is somewhat bold (plastered for eternity on google) and not everyone is willing to take the associated risks.



When I married a celebrity, I came to terms with the fact that my entire LIFE could be plastered on Google for all eternity  Comes with the territory. Trust me, nobody here is going to say anything as biting as what I might face from Perez Hilton. 

_Mike


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

mverta @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> By the way, an interesting dynamic: I haven't gotten a lot of support in this thread; merely some (appreciated!).
> _Mike



Having not accepted my premise that we will simply not agree here, what is your object? To win? Why do you want or need support? Does it make you more right if you get it and more wrong if you don't?

In any case, you've not addressed my core issue- politeness and respect. You don't think those are valuable things, or they are devalued because effective critique trumps them, fine. I believe i's possible to do both. We disagree....but... I must be wrong...you win!

(Now can we stop debating this endlessly cyclical thing?)


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## mverta (Nov 20, 2010)

Larry, apologies if it seems to be missed in the fray, but I don't debate the value of politeness and respect. How can those not be good things? But I also think that they're not essential to good critique - I prefer to find useful stuff regardless of the presentation.

This whole thing began with criticism of Guy's pieces, which I defended by saying we need more good work here, not less. I went further to say that as a whole, I find this community not as supportive as others I'm part of, to its detriment. And an elaborating point was that we tend to spend a lot of energy worrying about presentation of feedback, which is all well and good, but if the goal is truly to improve, then there are gems to be found amidst all forms of criticism, and a thick skin is a good thing to have in this business.

That's as clear a sum of my points as I can muster. Obviously, I think they're pretty defensible, and if I have an "object," well... that's it, I guess. My goal is to represent my ideas, interact with others, and learn stuff. Isn't yours?

_Mike


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

mverta @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> Larry, apologies if it seems to be missed in the fray, but I don't debate the value of politeness and respect. How can those not be good things? But I also think that they're not essential to good critique - I prefer to find useful stuff regardless of the presentation.
> 
> This whole thing began with criticism of Guy's pieces, which I defended by saying we need more good work here, not less. I went further to say that as a whole, I find this community not as supportive as others I'm part of, to its detriment. And an elaborating point was that we tend to spend a lot of energy worrying about presentation of feedback, which is all well and good, but if the goal is truly to improve, then there are gems to be found amidst all forms of criticism, and a thick skin is a good thing to have in this business.
> 
> ...



I agreed with your upfront point, Mike. You might have missed that. I also thought you could have found a less strong way to say it. You've addressed that, sorta-but for the third time, we simply disagree about the value of thoughtful presentation. 

Cheers.


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## mverta (Nov 20, 2010)

And yet the world, it seems, continues to spin. A humbling moment for us both, I'm sure. 

_Mike


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm often wrong, I'm sure, but rarely humbled.


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## mverta (Nov 20, 2010)

See? We do have a lot in common...


_Mike


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 20, 2010)

wst3 @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> You will find a similar parallel in live theatre - theatrical lighting design is probably 10-15 years ahead of theatrical sound design, and music for drama (excluding musicals of course) is even further behind.
> 
> The later is largely due to the challenge of NOT coming off as a movie or TV show with a stereotypical underscore. Balancing audio elements in live theatre is difficult, and I am not slagging anyone on that count.
> 
> ...



I'll start a new thread on this, think it's interesting...

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=246815


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

mverta @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> See? We do have a lot in common...
> 
> 
> _Mike



I never doubted it for a second, but-ain't comity nice? Such a win/win :wink: 

Go in peace, my musical brother.


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## synergy543 (Nov 20, 2010)

mverta @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> People send PM's because they don't trust the community with their opinions; they don't want to stand in the shit storm, frankly, which is what they expect they'll get.


Oh, NOW you tell me! :roll: I'll remember to PM you next time.



mverta @ Fri Nov 19 said:


> Oh, and at Greg (synergy543):
> 
> 
> synergy543 @ Fri Nov 19 said:
> ...


He he!...I assumed as much. You'll add to the legacy you leave for your kids as well while the rest of our PMs get lost in the ether. You certainly do have an interesting way of responding both with sincerity and more tolerance than I could ever muster up! Really, your quite a craftman with words too. Ya even tamed snarling Larry :twisted: (quite a feat).


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

"Snarling"?? Really..???

Good lord, what a notion.

"Tamed", my sweet Aunt Fanny.


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## mverta (Nov 20, 2010)

Yeah, I'm not sure "isn't currently pummeling anyone" counts as _tamed,_ per se. 

Anyway, he's from New York, where I happen to be enjoying a few days, and which I consider my home from home from home. It's not a city for the faint-of-heart, so to speak; a good part of the reason I dig it so much...


_Mike


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## Dan Mott (Nov 20, 2010)

We need good work here ey?

What would you guys, including Mr Verta would call good work?

Quite interested?


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## Ashermusic (Nov 20, 2010)

This thread simply reenforces for me that there is more value in privately soliciting opinions and advice from a handful of people you respect and trust to be totally honest in a constructive way than posting in a forum like this.

For instance, if I were to PM either Mike or Guy or Jose' and say, "I am unsure about how I feel about this piece. Please tell me what you think and be brutally honest" I am reasonably sure they would be and I would know it was meant to be constructive.

If I do that here publicly, probably most of the criticism is going to come from people whose opinion I have no reason to respect and whose motives may or may not be suspect as I may have angered them in the past with things I have said, they may be jealous, etc.

This is not a flaw unique to this particular forum, it is just the nature of forums where the only membership requirement is the willingness to participate.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> This thread simply reenforces for me that there is more value in privately soliciting opinions and advice from a handful of people you respect and trust to be totally honest in a constructive way than posting in a forum like this.
> 
> For instance, if I were to PM either Mike or Guy or Jose' and say, "I am unsure about how I feel about this piece. Please tell me what you think and be brutally honest" I am reasonably sure they would be and I would know it was meant to be constructive.
> 
> ...



Jay, I think anyone should post anything they care to. As to critique, it's pretty easy to separate the wheat from the chaff. Of course, if one is particularly sensitive one will probably end up feeling bad about some of the responses.

However, my ONLY point in this thread was contained in your words "in a constructive way". "Total honesty" doesn't preclude respect.

Will someone please explain to me why this is such a novel concept?? Nowhere have I said anything about not being honest! I try to be direct and straightforward in both professional and personal situations. When I'm mentoring younger musicians though, I try to throw in a kind word, find something positive, not run them over with "brutal honesty", but rather include it in a package of critique and support. I'm quite sure Mike V does the same-why is this a contentious issue??


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## mverta (Nov 20, 2010)

Jay, you certainly practice what you preach - of your 3000+ posts, the vast majority are in SAMPLE Talk and Your Digital Audio Workstation. Only a comparative handful are in the Members' Composition section. So clearly that's not what you're primarily here for. But while you feel that only a few people's opinions are worth soliciting, I might point out that the forum has far more guests than members, and we never know the ways in which our posts and interactions are informing and inspiring that great silent majority. Certainly none of the "big time" composers who've contacted me after hearing stuff on the site are members, or have ever posted... In the end, by not asking or giving, you're denying others the chance to hear your perspective, which is an informed one, and you're denying yourself the chance to find that one gem amidst the carbon. I know you're intractable on this point, I just can't help but feel it's a loss for the community. Yours is, frankly, one of the informed opinions I truly think we could use more of.

_Mike

P.S. Larry, of course you're right; I never savage younger guys outright. When starting out, I don't expect them to "know." I'm impressed when they ask, and more impressed when they listen, and yes, always find the kernel of positive feedback to build on.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

Jay wears his elitist pin on his lapel instead of a flag :wink: 

(Jay, ya know I love ya)


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

Hey Mike-I hope you enjoy your time in New Yawk New Yawk!


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## Guy Bacos (Nov 20, 2010)

Noticed this thread. Have I missed anything?


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## José Herring (Nov 20, 2010)

I think there are some cultural issues too. I went to school in NY and started my professional career there. The attitude was much different and the feedback that you would get from your peers was much different. Often more brutal. Certainly more honest and to be honest I never found any real backstabbers in NY.

In LA things are much more guarded. There is a much more concerted effort here to "never say a negative word about anybody". It's something that I had to really get use to. When I first got here I had a big meeting with a TV agent. She was the wife of a well know TV composer and kind of fell into the agent game representing her husband and some of his friends here, all established TV composers and who were/ are all well trained musicians coming from the days when composers didn't use electronics so actually had to know how to score paper and pencil style. I commented on a particular composer who was more of a computer based composer and back then I said I had a problem with this computer based composer as it didn't seem like he knew how to read and write music. In New York it wouldn't have been taken at all seriously. In LA the agent and her assistant freaked, because I had dared to say something negative about somebody in the Biz.

Having been here so long I have to say that I've picked up a bit of that attitude of not commenting on another professional composer no matter how I feel about him or her. So now a days I often just keep my mouth shut.

But, I think it's a shame really. I think when you're just deciding on what kind of composer/musician you want to be it's important to form an opinion. Sometimes that comes out as critical of others work. Personally as I've gotten older I've found that being "brutally honest" about how you "feel" about somebody's work is a balancing act. I don't know if I've gotten less confident over the years or less sure of my place in the big game, of if the game has changed or whatever. I just find that my particular ideas just don't mean much or were formed before I had any real knowledge of what's actually needed and wanted in this industry.

So I've gotten a little touchy about critiques. Especially from newer composers. Mostly because things that I thought were irrefutable facts when I was in my late twenties, turned out to be just my opinion that very few shared and I kind of don't want others to make the same mistakes I did.

I actually like most people's work. I don't think that there is one way to write music and as long as the person is sincere in his music that comes across more to me than whether he's read the same books I have on orchestration. Or whether he sounds like my favorite composers or not.

I have an opinion on just about everybody I've heard on this forum. Some talent here for sure. But I honestly feel that unless I'm at a place where I feel like "ok, I've finally made it and know what's up now", then I'm as clueless about it all than anybody else. Sure I have a lot of technical knowledge but I can't tell you how many times I've had to throw all that away to complete a job successfully.

So, I've often just had to trust my own instincts. The funny thing is the more I trust my instincts the more my music is accepted by non musicians and the more it's kind of given the cold shoulder by other musicians. It's a weird thing I'm trying to resolve. I've played my last score for other composers and have gotten a slight, "it's ok". But, to the film makers I wrote it for and the people that they've screened it for people are raving about my last effort. Which I dunno. Kind of makes me wish I hadn't gone to Juilliard and just started working and figuring out music on my own. Maybe been more like Hans or something. Universally panned by trained composers and adored by the public at large. I wish I could be a John Williams, but so far my talents and training haven't gotten me to that level. And at my age I wonder if I ever could.

Sorry, long rambling post. Waiting for my car to get fixed. $400. Could have gotten some good plugins for that. Arrrhhhg.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

Very thoughtful post, Jose. Interesting stuff.


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## germancomponist (Nov 20, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> Very thoughtful post, Jose. Interesting stuff.



Agree.


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## mverta (Nov 20, 2010)

In LA, all that "never speak ill" crap is as phony as the people are. Everyone, in trusted company, blasts everyone else. If you're not hearing it, you're not trusted company. But for most people in the business, it's not in their best interest to have a lot of truth out in the open, for the same reason the Emperor could've done without the little kid commenting on his clothes.

I'm friends with many top-call session players who would never, ever speak negatively about the composers they work for; not if you put a Winchester to their privates; not to save their dying children. They "know" that one slip, and they'll "never work again," so you will not catch them being critical of anyone, ever. 

...Until about 11:30 on a Friday night, that is, when you get to hear what they really think about playing for most of the "A-Listers" in town. A frustrated musician has plenty to say, I've noticed, when the curtains are drawn.

So the "lofty principle" packaging for this faux respect is just a tagline. If you actually believe there are morally aspirational people in Hollywood, you should start the Xanax, right now, before reality finds you. But it's safer to keep your mouth shut, for sure; the talentless outnumber the talented 1000:1 in this town, and they don't take kindly to being exposed as the hack frauds they know they are. Who would? I guess... 




_Mike


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

In NYC during the 80's, I saw some of the most disgusting human behavior I'd ever seen, from heads of music companies, advertising creatives and account execs. The music house people were the most interesting to me, as many of them were musicians. Some were simple business people with no musical abilities (but oh, did they have weighty opinions!)

Many of these folks strutted around like 800 lb. gorillas, dropping loads wherever they wished. The hubris, the moral reprehensibility and the cocaine were legion.

What was most interesting thing to me about the whole collusive culture was this- to a man (and woman) they all kissed up and pissed down. Everyone they worked for a God, everyone who worked for them a disposable moron.

Obviously, therò  A   Ço½  A   ÇÄX  A   ÇÄÉ  A   Çë=  A   Çì1  A   È  A   ÈŒ  A   È3p  A   È4W  A   ÈaF  A   Èaf  A   È­Ÿ  A   È®  A   Èó'  A   ÈóQ  A   É|’  A


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## mverta (Nov 20, 2010)

See, I don't think anything's changed; I think it's just hidden better. Remember, after the 80s we quickly went into that "don't judge me in any way, ever/my happiness is paramount" mentality/rationalization, which works out very well for those who can't withstand moral scrutiny on any level. America is the king of bullshit, when the truth is, Quality isn't Job 1, 4 out of 5 dentists don't actually agree, and MegaGiant Corp. isn't actually doing things "because [they] care." Your mileage may vary; results not typical; professional driver on closed course; past performance is no indication of future result. In short, "Everything we just said sounded good, but we were lying."

Sure, it's better to focus your energies on just being your best, and not worrying about others. But its also true that injustice can be a seriously efficient, hot-burning fuel of inspiration. Haven't you ever been spurned to action by the sheer suck-i-tude of a competitor's crap? Well, I have. But then again, I don't think I'm the moral template for humanity. I'm a liar and a hypocrite; I tell people I've never pissed in the shower, and I never pick my nose*.


_Mike


*As an aside, I had a friend who used to do this to keep people away from his cherry, vintage B3. They would always want him to turn on the Leslie so they could try it out. So he'd û  D   ¿`  D   ¿¢€  D   ¿¢Œ  D   ÀéÎ  D   Àê   D   Àòp  D   ÀòŠ  D   ÀýC  D   ÀýW  D   Á+Ì  D   Á+è  D   Á`à  D   Áa5  D   ÁmÝ  D   Án%  D   ÁÕ|  D   ÁÕ³  D   Áã  D   Áé  D   ÁéD  D   Áô8  D   Áôd  D   Áõ  D   ÁûO  D   ÁûŒ  D   Áün  D   ÁüÞ  D   Â€  D   Â±


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## Dan Mott (Nov 20, 2010)

NYC composer. I've been told that I suck many times by others, but did that stop me? No, it made me better. Like I said, I don't care if people are hard on me, I'm used to it.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> NYC composer. I've been told that I suck many times by others, but did that stop me? No, it made me better. Like I said, I don't care if people are hard on me, I'm used to it.



Okay, Dan-Jay. Just out of curiosity, did they say it just like that..."you suck"?


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## Dan Mott (Nov 20, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 21 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sat Nov 20 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC composer. I've been told that I suck many times by others, but did that stop me? No, it made me better. Like I said, I don't care if people are hard on me, I'm used to it.
> ...



Yes. I wouldn't just make it up for the sake of it. I even made a myspace page for my eariler work and then I had alot of people just send me abusive messages, saying that I suck and using this work called a "Gimp" which I don't know what that means. They kept abusing me just to put me down, and yes it did hurt alot, but I just kept doing my thing you know. Some people were actually abusing me who I didn't even know of. I was also bullied at school by a certain group because of it which I think was just crazy.

I made pop, and as you all know, in that industry of work you are going to get a bunch of haters for now reason. I had no abusive or offensive lyrics in my songs to make anyone angry like that, it's just people are going to tell you that you suck.

I had a girl singer in my songs, I then had people approach me directly and say, "You know, Dan, that girl is the reason your music makes it, if it wasn't for her... well..."

I'm also going to prepare to cop more of that along the road. Sometimes I think about it like, some people are going to say you suck. Some people will say they don't like it, and others will like it.. so. I'd prefer If someone said they didn't like it, but also have a reason for not liking it. If it's something to do with the mix I'll change it, but if they don't like the song, I put it in my head that someone else may like it because of tastes.

Anyway.


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## dach (Nov 20, 2010)

I rarely post anywhere but ditto to the gospel of what Verta and NYC said recently... Jeez, things must really be slow if so many are pissing about posting commercial demos... more power to the guys that actually work for profit everyday in this whacked out industry... they do for a reason... If you don't maybe you should pay closer attention to the few that do and bother to post here... if you'd like to be in the same category... Sorry to be a OT but I consider this whole thread to be ridiculous... although some good insights have come from it. Best of luck to all you guys...


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Nov 20 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-Jay @ Sat Nov 20 said:
> ...



Wow. I guess it's an age thing. Or a place thing. People who are quite that openly abusive 'round these parts tend to get popped. It can be horrific, but it's more casually dismissive than openly hostile.

For the record, I've shoved stuff like that to the side all my life. People judge you for all sorts of reasons of their own and in all sorts of non-germane ways. To have someone say 'you suck' because they don't like your sepcific style of music, rather than how professionally you did it, is par for the course, even among musicians sometimes. If you can't develop enough cojones and rhino hide to laugh that crap off, the industry will assuredly run you over.

Sounds like you're taking it the right way. Good luck.


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## mverta (Nov 20, 2010)

For me, that's an easy line of distinction to draw: when feedback isn't about the work, but about the person, it's useless. "You suck"? Sounds like teenagers; I've never actually heard that, but if I did, I'd dismiss it instantly. "IT sucks," without further specifics might not be useful, but it might also pretty much sum it up. Context, I suppose.

Personal pejoratives are just generally the mark of someone with a problem, but no real message. Definitely don't sweat that stuff. 

Anyway, Dan-Jay, you asked me privately for some feedback about a piece I wasn't crazy about, and I was impressed both by your asking, and by the fact that you took my criticisms in and kept trying. Just do more of that, and you'll be okay. Better than a lot of people, actually, who can only handle praise; who don't actually care about getting better.


_Mike


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## P.T. (Nov 20, 2010)

"I had a girl singer in my songs, I then had people approach me directly and say, "You know, Dan, that girl is the reason your music makes it, if it wasn't for her... well..." "

The funny thing here is that 9 out of 10 times in a song with a vocal, the vocal is the weakest part of the production.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 21, 2010)

What a fascinating, useful thread guys! Thanks for the read/insights.


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## midphase (Nov 21, 2010)

I would like to add one though to this thread that I am just now becoming aware of.

I think part of the reluctance of people to post mp3's of their compositions here is because they will be judged on realism more than actual compositional skills. So a so-so composer who can actually make his samples sound kick ass will receive way more accolades than a great composer who's still using the Proteus Orchestral module as his go-to sample library.

So my point is that if you can't compete against the TJ's of this forum...forget it...what's the point of posting?

The reality of the industry is that realism isn't always the end-all. As a matter of fact most directors can't tell the difference (or don't really care) between GOS and HS, they just need something that sounds halfway decent within their budget and deadline.

I see many of these orchestral simulator guys having a hard time functioning outside of their "demo" based worlds where you're not afforded the chance to tweak things until they're damn near perfect.

Right now I'm working on a feature film where I've been given 2 weeks to crank out about 80 minutes of orchestral action music. The other day I cranked out 7 mixed minutes in about 2 hours (thank you Symphobia)...if I posted it here I'd get laughed out of the forum because it wouldn't meet the standards imposed by most around here...but I honestly don't give a flying crap because as long as the director and producers are happy with the results (and they are), and the check is clearing, that is all that ultimately matters in the real world.

I always find it ironic how the composers who most value working with a real orchestra are the ones who most obsess over obtaining ultra-realistic mock ups. WTF do you all think will happen when you pitch to a director the idea of adding another $80k to your music budget when they just heard your amazing sounding mock up? I mean seriously, if I was hiring Mike V based on his really great sounding Star Trek mockup, and he told me that he wanted to hire a real orchestra, my response would be: "what the fuck for? that stuff you did in the computer sounds just great to me!"

From my perspective (and I think many of my working colleagues around here would agree), there is VI Control, and then there is the real world. Perhaps the lack of "community support" comes from the clear distinction that we have around here between those two worlds. In my estimation, about 90% of the people around here live in some sort of alternate-la la land with no real connection to reality, while the other 10% are busy trying to function within an increasingly more difficult to understand industry.

Perhaps in the world of CG, the ratios are not so off balance? Perhaps most frequenters of those forums are up to speed with reality? Not sure what's going on there that makes their contributions better...but I suspect that might have something to do with it.

Regarding the original post, I understand the point he was trying to make since Guy is so closely associated with VSL. It would be as if Nick P. would post a new demo on a daily basis but didn't purchase any ad banners on VI Control. It's got nothing to do with creativity and everything to do with wether other developers would feel treated unfairly because they're paying for ad space. Since this is not a democracy...it's really up to Frederick to make that judgement call....if he's cool with Guy's daily posts, and none of the paying developers are bitching, then more power to Guy because he is one talented sob and he should continue to post....I suppose one way for things to be a bit more equalized would be for East West to send Guy an unlocked Terrapack and ask him to include some of their samples in his compositions.


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## Dan Mott (Nov 22, 2010)

How would anyone know if they're not good enough to post here? I'm no TJ, but I'm here to learn more than anything which is why I post a style that this forum is kind of based around. I do agree on the samples point of view. When I listen to a song, I don't pay attention to realism, but only focus on if it sounds good. I get the vibe here that people have high standards for what is real, so it's sometimes a little bit scary to post something because sometimes one is not intending for a song to sound 100 percent real.


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## mverta (Nov 22, 2010)

Both you guys - post your music, no matter what!!

"Be the change you want to see in the world," right? Give us a chance - give the community a chance - to comment on the music; don't just accept the idea that only the mock-up quality is worth commenting on. It'll only be that way, stay that way, if you don't participate in changing it.


As for accidentally screwing yourself out of a live performance with a good mock-up, it's true that some times you'll take that hit, though in my experience, rarely if you sell it right, and have a good director/producer. Remember, you CAN look them in the eye, with Clint Eastwood-like gravitas and mean it when you say the best mock-up pales in comparison to the best orchestra. Now, you want to talk about those shitty orchestras, then all bets are off. I'd rather go virtual then go through that.

But be prepared to sell it. I've had to go full-on, Krushchev-banging-on-the-table hyperbolic pitch-monkey a couple of times. But when all was said and done, client agreed it was worth it. I've yet to meet the man too cool for a room of A-Listers.


_Mike


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 22, 2010)

Actually, Kays, I think some of the composers here with megachops who are very orchestra-centric do argue that realism in sample mockups isn't the most important thing (am I right, Jay?) Making something musical even if not "realistic" is more important.

I'm not sure I entirely agree (well, it should be both). From my own experience, if a producer says of a virtual orchestra "that sounds synthy", it's not a compliment! I think it does need to be realistic to a pretty high degree. That said, where I do agree with Kays is that some people's standards here are about 1000% higher than the clients, let alone the audience. There are some who are pretty dismissive of even the best TJ mockups, arguing that it never getting close to a real orchestra. And I agree with Kays that I think 9 out of 10 producers, certainly in TV would be saying "sounds pretty good to me, why book an orchestra?" of that standard.

On the subject of being reluctant to post, I feel the need to say again - I am fully aware of my limitations, but it doesn't stop me posting. Maybe I've been lucky, but most people have been kind and helpful in their responses.


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## wst3 (Nov 22, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Nov 22 said:


> <snippity>
> I think part of the reluctance of people to post mp3's of their compositions here is because they will be judged on realism more than actual compositional skills. So a so-so composer who can actually make his samples sound kick ass will receive way more accolades than a great composer who's still using the Proteus Orchestral module as his go-to sample library.<remainder of outstanding post snipped cause I have nothing to add!



This is a very real problem, and it is NOT limited to this community. And the impact is felt everywhere!

When I was a young lad (don't ask, but it wasn't this century<G>) the common practice for demo work, be it songwriting or film scores or anything in between) was to knock out a demo with minimal instrumentation, and minimal effort. Most of the demos back then were made on cassette recorders, mono or maybe stereo for the most part, but some adventurous souls really latched on to the porta-studios when they arrived. If you were really successful you might have an open reel deck in your 'studio', maybe even the Teac 3340s.

This worked out well, because those that were listening to the demo had the ability to imagine what it would sound like as a finished piece. Put another way, they could hear the song or composition based solely on that piano or guitar and voice demo.

I do not know if it is the availability of technology that drives the laziness, or laziness that drives the development of technology, but today, you really better have a polished demo or you are going to have an uphill battle.

Do not misunderstand me - I LOVE the fact that I can mock up, for my own use at least, almost anything I hear in my head. I used to wish for this capability when I was creating mockups with an ARP 2600 and a Korg MS-20 as my entire orchestra. By the time I hit pass 10 or 12 the tape hiss was becoming one of the instruments, but it was still kinda cool.

And ultimately, from a purist's perspective, it is still the craftsperson, not the tools. I've gone back and listened to some of the early demos for the K250 and Proteus, and while the actual samples pale in comparison to the libraries available today, the compositions, and even the production, are still heads and shoulders above a lot of what one hears today. I don't use a Proteus any more, but I'd love to know how they created that demo sequence.

I don't have any of the current best-of-crop libraries, but I have what I consider decent tools (GOS which I am still trying to move to Kontakt, and Kirk Hunters Diamond library among others), and none of my mock-ups sound like TJ or Guy. So do I go out and buy the tools that they use? It might make a small difference, but I don't think I'd become an instant genius!

There's a parallel in my other life, as a guitarist. I own a couple of Les Pauls, and yet I don't sound like Duane Allman, and I have a couple of Strats (embarassingly enough, one of them is black with a white pickguard), but I don't sound like EC. And truthfully, listening to the Allman Brothers drove me to buy a Les Paul, and listening to EC drove me to buy a Strat. Well, an over simplification, but I have these guitars because I liked what others did with them.

So really, there are a couple of interrelated issues
- that need to be sufficiently polished to that the folks that are listening don't have to work too hard (sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is what I've witnessed)
- and that temptation to use the same tools as those we look up to.

Neither of which has anything to do with the OP... so I'll just repeat myself, that I am glad there are folks that can post demos using the latest and greatest tools, and I am glad that they do such good work. It gives me a target to shoot for.

If a time comes when that is taken advantage of by one or more vendors then I suppose the management will need to deal with it. Since it does not appear that this is the case, well, leave sleeping dogs sleep...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 22, 2010)

I got an email to the moderator complaining about a post here.

Did somebody abuse someone else and delete the thread? Otherwise I don't know what it's about.


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## mverta (Nov 22, 2010)

midphase @ Mon Nov 22 said:


> When separated from the movie, many times the music doesn't make sense or might be boring or understated.



Yes. Unless it's Williams. Or Goldsmith. Or Steiner or Korngold or Herrmann or...

_Mike


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 22, 2010)

josejherring @ Mon Nov 22 said:


> But not even the latest string libraries sound like the real thing so why beat yourself up over whether it sounds like the real thing. It isn't.



Aww, I was with you til that sentence! I know it's the oldest, most tired debate on the forum. But a good mockup with a good library sounds like a string section to me. 100%? No. Can I tell the difference between it and a real orchestra when placed side by side? Yes. But close enough, most of the time? Yes.


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## chimuelo (Nov 22, 2010)

:mrgreen: 

Well Jose, you do exactly as I have done for years.
I don't need 100's of articulations for my live gig, but I need something that sounds like a 100 Strings being played.
I've had more people ask me what sample instrument I am using and they usually balk when I tell them.
I need string melodies of the one and two fingered nature since my gigs aren't Orchestrally demanding. But Pop elements such as TP / EWF Horns, and Strings need some strength.
I have Miraslav, VSL, SISS and none of these can handle the job.
So for years I use the OBX Oberheim BP SawString preset, with SISS and a Melotron sample. Yes that 16bit sample of an 8bit recording......... :lol: 

So I gotta do what the average Joes think is a Large Symphony of Strings.
So sometimes its the presentation that gets the Gig.
Thankfully I dont perform for an audience of Composers judging my samples, but the house is packed with musicians and I get a kick out of telling them how I hit keyswitches with my feet, and what certain sounds actually are.
Most of these cats are young Motif guys w/ a DAW at home that they'd never dream of using live...


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## midphase (Nov 22, 2010)

mverta @ Mon Nov 22 said:


> midphase @ Mon Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > When separated from the movie, many times the music doesn't make sense or might be boring or understated.
> ...



I bet I can find cues from all these guys which might make you yawn.

Unfortunately the state of scoring nowadays has also created music which is utterly forgettable 99% of the time. I would love to hijack this thread into a discussion about the state of crapwork in film music and compare it to the greats of 2 or 3 generations ago...unfortunately I think we'd digress way too much.

In the meantime...are you with me or against me?


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## mverta (Nov 22, 2010)

If you don't agree that the hallmark of the best film music is that it manages to stand alone as truly cohesive work unto itself, while still managing to serve the dramatic needs of the picture, the whims of the director, and the bonds of the temp track, then I'm against you.  

I think this rare (nowadays) achievement is precisely the masterful balancing act which should forever silence the academics and critics of the art as being purely watered-down concertmusic. I know JW's repertoire best, of course, and I've yet to hear two successive bars of "treading water," in his music. His insistence on making even the shortest, most mundane moment musically developed has never failed to astound me.


_Mike


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## midphase (Nov 22, 2010)

Conrad Pope appreciates your sentiments.


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## mverta (Nov 22, 2010)

This, I assume, being fatuousness writ large, yes? Inasmuch as Conrad Pope, like Herb Spencer before him, does absolutely zero "fleshing out" with Williams, who is precise and anal right down to the bowing direction about what he wants for every picosecond of music... If you get the chance, ask Conrad about that sometime. 


_Mike


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## rJames (Nov 23, 2010)

mverta @ Mon Nov 22 said:


> If you don't agree that the hallmark of the best film music is that it manages to stand alone as truly cohesive work unto itself, while still managing to serve the dramatic needs of the picture, the whims of the director, and the bonds of the temp track, then I'm against you.
> 
> I think this rare (nowadays) achievement is precisely the masterful balancing act which should forever silence the academics and critics of the art as being purely watered-down concertmusic. I know JW's repertoire best, of course, and I've yet to hear two successive bars of "treading water," in his music. His insistence on making even the shortest, most mundane moment musically developed has never failed to astound me.
> 
> ...



You need to watch the movies to hear the "treading water" parts. But I do agree with you for the most part. What a dramatic difference in this aspect after Williams left the Potter franchise.


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## steb74 (Nov 23, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Tue Nov 23 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Nov 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Hope Williams is doing okay with his recent injury.
> ...


Yes, hopefully it isn't too serious, although I'm sure age doesn't help in these matters.
I think Williams has had some back trouble before though, during the Jurassic Park recording sessions if I'm not mistaken, when he had to surrender some conducting duties because of it.


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