# VI Control Orchestral Library! - VICOL ;)



## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Welcome aboard


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## Scott Cairns (Mar 16, 2005)

Cool.  I found a good recording of the Prague Orchestra, its a Quicktime movie;

http://www.praguerecording.com/movies/mammoth.mov


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Hands - do you have any recordings of this orchestra, or do you know where I can get any? The website doesn't seem to have any fragments of audio. The fact that they already have some recording gear excluding mics can save on the costs, although I don't know if the mixing board and digital tape recorder are any good. My though is that we should bring a mobile Protools rig with some quality mic-pre's and A/D converters. Then there's the question of the mics. A good engineer can probably anwer that question best.

It would be soooooo cool if we would actually do this 8)


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Herman: Unfortunately no:( But they recorded TONS of contemporary music - http://www.mfo.cz/diskografieeng.htm And I know that they recorded for many PC games and also for GPO

But - I will hire some players separately....not from MP directly...it will be cheaper...

About recordin hardware - Im LAME in that, I dont kno a thing about recording and mastering stuff.:(


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

handz said:


> Herman: Unfortunately no:( But they recorded TONS of contemporary music - http://www.mfo.cz/diskografieeng.htm And I know that they recorded for many PC games and also for GPO
> 
> But - I will hire some players separately....not from MP directly...it will be cheaper...
> 
> About recordin hardware - Im LAME in that, I dont kno a thing about recording and mastering stuff.:(



I've done a few basic pop/jazz orientated recordings/productions in the past, but that's where the experience I have ends. 
If those guys are good enough for Gary and the average game developer they'll have to be good enough for us as well! :wink:


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

If we dont find any good engineer....I think that MFO have some who have experiences...


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Yeah, and it would be a lot cheaper than getting an engineer from Western Europe or the US probably. Just thinking out loud...


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Yes...definitely.

I send mail to director of MFO about prices..so I hope I will get quick answer...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 16, 2005)

Hey Scott-wants-a-cracker,

nice movie, but me thinks they would charge an arm and a leg. Handz' idea is better, IMV.


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## Scott Cairns (Mar 16, 2005)

Hehe. Am I confused? I thought the idea was to get those guys... sorry I mustve misread something along the way.

Who are we hiring?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 16, 2005)

Scott, Handz wrote the following in the LOTR thread:


> So 1st goal is to find a good recording engineeer...
> 
> BUT - Prague I think isn?t best reason...what about Olomouc? (ok, I live there and call me lazy but...) http://www.mfo.cz/studioeng.htm
> Moravian Philharmony have a new concert hall that isnt big but have very good accoustic. And it will be cheaper than the same hall in Prague I bet...
> ...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 16, 2005)

BTW, FWIW I think that this thread should be in the Sample Talk section. This is not OT or General Musings, this is about a sample library. Agree?


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## Christian Marcussen (Mar 16, 2005)

Yeah.. I was having a hard time finding the thread... had to use the link in the other thread.

Anyway, I know absolutely nothing about recording etc. So all I can come up with is cash, and ideas about what to record


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 16, 2005)

Christian Marcussen said:


> ... all I can come up with is cash, and ideas about what to record



Sounds good to me! :lol: 

I'm moving this to Sample Talk. If anyone objects, please let me know!


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Ned, maybe yes..but...It is stil mostly in "abstract" stadium...

Christian - Hard to find? On VIC I navigating only by "recent discussions"panel, where you see where it lives... It is really helpfull


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 16, 2005)

Here is the thread I was referring to.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27991&highlight=prague (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... ght=prague)

http://www.praguephilharmonic.org/

Colin


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Colin: Thanx for info! I red the NS thread about prague... Interesting.

Honestly - I think that for recording Samples = Single notes, you dont need top notch players... its more matter of good engineering and recording hardware I think. 

I bet that most of sample libs using conservatory students and younger musicians than some virtuoses...


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## Marsdy (Mar 16, 2005)

This is SO going to end in tears. :roll:


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 16, 2005)

I understand where you are coming from but disagree. I think you'll end up with something that sounds similar to the first SAM freebee trumpet. There were some good things about it at the time, but it does not compete with any of the existing commercial libraries. I think it would a waste of time to go through this and not record top notch players. 

Consider the monunmental effort that has been put into QLSO, SI, Vienna, GOS etc. Very capable producers and musicians working on those libraries. I would love to have custom samples to augment those libraries. We aren't going to achieve that without professional musicans. 

Colin


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## Niah (Mar 16, 2005)

Personally I believe we could sample something easy like piccolo runs and see how things go...then move to bigger things.

As for using top notch players or not, I think top notch players will be a great deal if we get the money for hiring them. Then again if we don't, using not so professional players could bring some character to the samples.


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

hmm, really I dont trust that any of libraries mentioned using best players. 
And - it is question of engineerering... Also great orchestra could be badly recorded... 
And goal of recording samples is not so much in recording orchestra but single musicians... And if those musicians plays in orchestra (not any school but regular orchestra, that is recording and so...) I think that they are suficcient for sample recording. Main thing is quality of recording... IMHO


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 16, 2005)

One other major thing to consider, Thomas and Maarten (and others I'm sure) had past experience sampling. That has a lot to do with why there custom stuff sounds so good. They had an innovative approach based on practical experience of what worked and didn't work in previous sessions. I don't have that experience. 

I think you can comprimise on some things engineering wise, but not the players. Sampling is so exposed. It is very clear to me from Simon's demos that those trumpet players were not amateur. Also, if you look at Prague for example, the costs of the players are not prohibitive (if they will allow themselves to be sampled). 

Colin


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## Christian Marcussen (Mar 16, 2005)

Am I the only one who thinks sampling sections might be overkill? I think it would be much more realistic, cost efficient and needed to record runs, and FX. I mean - competing with titan sample companies on say Brass seems unnecesary


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 16, 2005)

I know with certaintly that QLSO and Dan Dean Brass used professional players. I dont' know first hand, but am also certain the other major libraries do as well. 

Colin


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Colin: I never said "rent amateurs" 
Palyers that plays years in good orchestra are never amateurs.... but that no means they need to be best virtuoses... (when you look on VSL page - you see that they used mostly young musicians)
Maybe trumpetist from LS plays some etude better than Trumpetist from Prague (but I dont trust that there will be some big difference) But I bet that Trumpetist from Prague could play middle C as good as Player from London. 
And than it is matter how it will be recorded...


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 16, 2005)

Handz: pont taken javascript:emoticon('8)') That marks my first ever use of an emoticon in a forum. I guess the fundamental question is will we get something that is worth our efforts? Even if we just did trumpets, it will be a monumental task. QLSO pro is just around the corner, and others as well. Perhaps Christian's idea about FX is a good one? Bottom line. I WANT SIMON'S TRUMPETS NOW javascript:emoticon(':D') Woh! two in one post. I'm on a roll. 

Colin


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## Christian Marcussen (Mar 16, 2005)

Thing is, that even if we did sample Trumpets, you might end with something which is a far cry from Simons, SAMs, or any other pro lib.


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Understand that it will be hard... but think about what could be recorded in two days.... many things... 
I think that Idea with FXs was mine first :oops: :twisted: 

It was discussed earlier on NS - that biggest problem of today brass is - they dont have true FF or FFF....not have good F or FF sustains and so...it will be great to have some trumpets recorded in hall, with many dynamics.... (no one offer this - only Dan Dean - but those are dry samples...and sound isn?t ...isn?t so good as it should be... It wasrecorded in studio I think)

Christian: This is possible but if we have someone who have experience with sample recording = someone who already recorded samples, it cant be bad. And In prague you sure find someone who have those experience...


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> And in that spirit:
> 
> - Let's say that some of us will do the editing and programming for free.


I volunteer :D



Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Guestimate cost: app. 12,000 euros = 16,000 US
> 
> So... 16 of us put up 1,000
> 
> Possible? Maybe. But then, we have to agree on what to record!



Sounds cool! How about starting with the articulation list?


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## Ed (Mar 16, 2005)

TJ said there were "special" articulations they recorded that no one else had, obviously he couldnt tell and didnt tell me what they were, but you need to think about that as well.

Also, you need good players. Average players or bad players can be made to sound not so bad with good recording but with samples it really seems to make a difference. 

Also, dont forget the players might charge extra if they know they are going to be "sampled" so you need to take that into consideration. Remember Zimmer did a deal with the LSO when he recorded his.

Ed


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Ed said:


> Also, dont forget the players might charge extra if they know they are going to be "sampled" so you need to take that into consideration. Remember Zimmer did a deal with the LSO when he recorded his.
> 
> Ed



You don't tell them that. Just tell them it's minimal music :D


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

ED: I dont know how is it in States or UK...but in CZ...Every musician needs money....Playing in orchestra is not so good paid...so every musician needs more jobs... I dont believe that they will want special money...in case of sampling...
And again.. I really dont trust that for example SAM using BEST musicians... "Average orchestra" player with years of playing experience cant be bad for sample recording... IMHO 
I bet thatSimons trumpets arent some BEST musicians... Just some good players from Prague...



Hrman: !!!!!)


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 16, 2005)

HEY HANDZ, YOU STOLE MY THUNDER!

*WHAT SAY YOU!?*


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 16, 2005)

Nope, Simons trumpets are actually THE BEST trumpet players in Prague. It'd be a total waste of time not to record the best (or close to it) players. You also need an engineer who specializes in getting that hollywood-ish sound. If you hire mediocre players, you risk wasting a lot of time with retakes due to bad attacks, intonation, tone, ect. The most important expense is a top notch engineer.


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Aaron: ?? (is that any saying? )

Are you sure about that ? Who are the best Trumpet players? 
I dont know, but any player in CZ cant be much expensive....until he is a medial celebrity... I bet that Prague orchestras have overaly VERY good players... 

Agree with engineer...It is the most important.


Speculation:Clasical music is much more about accurate playing and preccision than film music (for ex. Barbar Conan - the music is stunning, sounds great, but when you listen carefuly - like you listen classical music - you notice that orchestra plays really bad.) So players that have years of practice with recording Classical music...cant be just "average" players... Maybe they play in average orchestra but...they must know how to play accurate and clean... end of speculation


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Any hollywood engineers living in the Czech Republic nowadays? :D


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Herman Witkam said:


> Any hollywood engineers living in the Czech Republic nowadays? :D


hehe :D 

But you not so far....
Many rerecordings of John Williams music and other soundtracks are recorded in prague and I think with Local engineers... (but maybe not:( )


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 16, 2005)

Yea I'm sure. And it shows.

If we seriously wanted to do this, everyone who participates would have to program a part of the library. I heard that's what was done, and that's more than fair. So that means those who don't know the giga editor/kontakt (myself included) would have to learn.  Also need people to notate XXX measures of notes, a few people to be at the recording session/conduct (not everybody has to be there).

Recording FX is a given. We'd record the usual piccolo runs, tbone blats, string fx, ect. The reason I'd really like to do this is so we can record samples with little to no post-processing (ridiculous noise reduction). I've heard some slow string work with the PP samples, and it's absolute amazing how much more life there is in the sound without noise reduction.


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## Niah (Mar 16, 2005)

> and it's absolute amazing how much more life there is in the sound without noise reduction.



Absolutly, natural noise could bring so much more live to the samples. I'm getting a little tired of clean digital samples that although work great for a big sound, with a more quiet passage they can't fool anyone.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Trust me, I would do additional programming for the fun of it 

No noise reduction will definitely add liveness to the sample material.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 16, 2005)

Yes yes slow strings with no noise reduction!!! *dies and goes to heaven. P.S. wow 4 pages? this thread didn't even exist when I went to bed last night.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 16, 2005)

Instead of 16 people @ $1000, could we do 32 @ $500? :lol: 

I definetely vote for FXs

It would be great to have some feedback from Simon, Craig, Thomas about what they have learnt from their experience.

I understand why they do not want to share their library with us but helping us out would be nice (plus if this was to be successful we might be able to trade :wink: )

Having KingIdiot review the result of the editing for a fee might be a good idea as well ?


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Instead of 16 people @ $1000, could we do 32 @ $500? :lol:



ditto that. anything to lower the costs hehehe


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## lux (Mar 16, 2005)

I vote for a recording focused on woodwinds.

I mean, expressive notes, subtle crescendos in sustains, realistic duration of notes. No terabytes. A la Vitous. with fx, runs different tempos.

I own lot of woods and still cant find a lib that satisfy me (if only Marteen had in program some woods :().

Luca


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Niah said:


> > and it's absolute amazing how much more life there is in the sound without noise reduction.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutly, natural noise could bring so much more live to the samples. I'm getting a little tired of clean digital samples that although work great for a big sound, with a more quiet passage they can't fool anyone.




Yeah! QLSO have not noise reduction (I think - there is noise in samples) and it soudns LIVE... but problem of QLSO is, that it is too bright....


Im still mostly into brass... Strings are the hardest I think... and they need some legato support... also WW....


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 16, 2005)

lux said:


> I vote for a recording focused on woodwinds.
> 
> I mean, expressive notes, subtle crescendos in sustains, realistic duration of notes. No terabytes. A la Vitous. with fx, runs different tempos.
> 
> ...


I think SI will satisfy your woodwind cravings.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Well, does it have runs and glissandos? :D


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 16, 2005)

I don't think we should be so hardcore in making super-realistic legato features. This is more a compliment to todays libraries than anything. It'd be a bit foolish to think we could record the entire orchestra in a sitting. I believe Simon did mostly strings/brass first, and they intend on recording the rest of what they wanted in the coming month. 

Lemme get a headcount of those who would actually be serious about doing this - those who would not back out at the last minute and are willing to spend about $1k. If the numbers are good we could get started on all the prelim stuff, articulation suggestions for one.


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm definitely in for 1k. I'll pay more if I can tell people what to do  

Colin


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 16, 2005)

Why limit this to 16 people?


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Aaron: Of course...And for start, I recommend to start without strings....string orchestra is about 50 and more musicians...that means EXPENSIVE...and without any experiences it would be foolish to rent so big couple of musicians...


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

I'd like to record everything except percussion. But that's probably me.

Patrick is right - If we can get 30 people to do this and all pay 500 $ that would be great!


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## Ed (Mar 16, 2005)

Percussion would be a waste of money really. We already have True Strike


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Of course that "all in one solutin" would be best, but Im most into quality than quantity....


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 16, 2005)

It'll take a lot more research in how much studio time/players/engineer will cost in the end. I don't know who came up with the 16k figure.

Of course the cost for the individual is subject to change, but I think we'd have a better chance getting a handful of people to pay more than a gulash of folks to pay a little less.


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 16, 2005)

Hey guys,

As many of you are my friends let me give you somethings to toil over.

first off the more people you get involved the better chance for piracy. this may be a factor for some of you others not. But given time the more people involved , one day some company will get a hot new lib and one of you will trade it and boom...it is out there.

Will Sam produce winds...maybe you could ask them.

SI winds do have runs though not as extensive as I would like. I have made programming suggestions to them and they have implemented them so there will be runs most likely in multiple tempos (faster than VSL).

It would be a drag to record your own winds and then SI or Sam's comes out with something that would have worked.

i would like to help out with articulations but i am not allowed to speak of such things.


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 16, 2005)

handz said:


> Aaron: Of course...And for start, I recommend to start without strings....string orchestra is about 50 and more musicians...that means EXPENSIVE...and without any experiences it would be foolish to rent so big couple of musicians...


Well you wouldn't order the entire string section into a single session.  Bring in violins at 2 PM, cellos at 5, basses at 8. (don't need no steekeeng VIOLAS!)


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## choc0thrax (Mar 16, 2005)

I'd be in for 1k but it depends on what will be recorded. If it turns out we can't sample strings at all then i'd have to back out. I thought Simon's etc. library was a good idea doing brass and strings first. I agree that percussion is not needed and also think woodwinds aren't but I see some people want those.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 16, 2005)

Hehe Viola's....I never use them.


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## Colin O'Malley (Mar 16, 2005)

I vote for: 

1. Trumpets
2. Violins
3. Cellos
4. Bones

Colin


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## Aaron Sapp (Mar 16, 2005)

Craig Sharmat said:


> first off the more people you get involved the better chance for piracy. this may be a factor for some of you others not. But given time the more people involved , one day some company will get a hot new lib and one of you will trade it and boom...it is out there.


I thought about that too - another reason why it'd be better to have a select group of trustful fellows instead of a large group.



Craig Sharmat said:


> i would like to help out with articulations but i am not allowed to speak of such things.


So you can't talk about articulations whatsoever?  It doesn't have to be information _directly_ from PP - perhaps you could bestow some wisdom and suggestions with articulations _we_ come up with. Say things like, "eh, that wouldn't work. you should probably do this, just my opinion. oops, bathroom break."


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Im also dont feel need for percs or woodwinds...
But mostly for some nice FF Brass... BRas FXs String FXs...

Colin:Yes! That looks interesting! But some horn FXs are always welcommed.

Choco: Never use them? Hmm interesting! :shock: 

Btw: Sharmy - how many people owns that custom library?


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

With horn FX IMO there must be a large quantity of them. They are one of the first things to be recognised, and I'd also like lots of really short staccato (doubletongues) for the trumpets and lots of FF glissandos (up & down, different intervals) for the trombones.

Piracy would be a consideration of course. Craig - thanks for the info on SI woods.


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## Lex (Mar 16, 2005)

Contact James Fitzpatrick at Tadlow Music.

james#tadlowmusic.com (#[email protected])

They manage CityOfPrague orchestra. Maybe he can give a good price?
Plus he can give you info on whats in the studio, and give you a choice of engeniers...

Couldn't hurt to ask, I think..

aLex


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Thanx for tip! 
But if we considering czech orchestra...I would like to speak with some czech?s that are in the business...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 16, 2005)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Why limit this to 16 people?



Pat,

I just picked a number out of my head, guessing how many people here would be willing to contribute the money and trust a first-time process...


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## Christian Marcussen (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm in for 1k depending on whats recorded...

Personaly i'm still for the FX, runs, etc stuff... I mean...do we really need to sample our own trumpet ensemble?

Im not saying I wont be up for that, but it does seem slightly overkill, and no one can garantee a better result than whats already out there.

FX however, is easier since they arent as extensively sampled by other companies. FX is also a good idea since even if other producers were to sample them, then having your own still is cool, as hearing the same ol' FX over and over again is tireing.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Christian Marcussen said:


> I mean...do we really need to sample our own trumpet ensemble?
> 
> Im not saying I wont be up for that, but it does seem slightly overkill, and no one can garantee a better result than whats already out there.



Yes!
A trumpet section consists of around 3 players. It's not like another violin section or something


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Christian Marcussen said:


> I mean...do we really need to sample our own trumpet ensemble?
> 
> Im not saying I wont be up for that, but it does seem slightly overkill, and no one can garantee a better result than whats already out there.



I think - YES WE NEED...but question is ARE WE ABLE? 
There is no brass enssemble that have more than three layers - and that is bad...


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

How about a Berlioz size brass section? :D


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## Christian Marcussen (Mar 16, 2005)

Epic Trumpets? :D

Anyway, I dont think trumpets are on teh top of my need list


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Herrman: I dont know what sizes used Berlioz but Im for Schoenbergs

But seriously - after some experiencess with Epic Horns - smaller ensembles are mostly more usefull than some 8Horns sections...

BTW: Williams like, fanfaric brass is for me the most missing part of orchestra:(


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

handz said:


> Herrman: I dont know what sizes used Berlioz but Im for Schoenbergs
> 
> But seriously - after some experiencess with Epic Horns - smaller ensembles are mostly more usefull than some 8Horns sections...



Well, Berlioz once wrote a piece to be played by a thousand people (including choir though). So you can imagine that there must be one hell of a brass section. The piece was written for Napoleon's son, but he rejected it, and it was used for the world exhibition (in Paris?).


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 16, 2005)

Actually in Berlioz's most decadent times he would have orchestras seated in the corners of the room....yes that's 4 orchestras...and the people in the center.

Basically your trumet section would consist of 12 players in true surround.


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## handz (Mar 16, 2005)

Herman Witkam said:


> Well, Berlioz once wrote a piece to be played by a thousand people (including choir though).



100 People isnt so much if you count in Choir that is about 20 people...  wink: 

Schoenberg used in Gurrelieder much more bigger orchestra - and it realy sounds BIG! (I recommend) 

Sharmy: I have heard something about that... I think that XENAKIS also experimented with "circular" orchestra position.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

handz said:


> Herman Witkam said:
> 
> 
> > Well, Berlioz once wrote a piece to be played by a thousand people (including choir though).
> ...



I think that choir was at least half of it. I've only heard the piece played by a smaller orchestra. There weren't enough kids in this country...lol

I'll look into Gurrelieder..thx

Is there anything Xenakis didn't experiment with? He even was an architect. He helped to design the hall for Var?se's Poem Electronique, that was played at the Belgian World Exhibition in '51. And I've heard he was one of the first to use granular synthesis.


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## Andy B (Mar 16, 2005)

handz said:


> BTW: Williams like, fanfaric brass is for me the most missing part of orchestra:(



I think a great deal of what you're after exists in today's libraries, it's just a case of mixing things up somewhat. Sharmy/Simon's custom library was created by some hardcore experienced sample guys and it looks as if there's already many differences of opinion in this thread as well. You might end up with one hell of a white elephant - but then it could also be the next great thing....

.....Here's the last four bars of the 'Dual of the Fates' which I put together this evening to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

http://www.andrewblaney.com/index/Dual.mp3
Andy.


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## Ed (Mar 16, 2005)

Dont forget that Simon, Maarten and TJ made old libraries sound great as well. 

Ed


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## Scott Cairns (Mar 16, 2005)

ComposerDude said:


> Out of curiosity, can anyone recommend *any* commercial violin section samples that, out of the box and without EQ, have the smooth tone of a well-recorded film soundtrack?



Hi Colin, I think the surround mics in EWQLSO Platinum might give you the sound you're looking for. SISS might be another choice, I dont own it, but it seems to be one of the "smoothest" sounding string libs available I think.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 16, 2005)

SCOTT! You SHAVED! :shock:


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## Scott Cairns (Mar 16, 2005)

I dont like to talk much about my love of bench pressing and 8th grade violin. They go so well together.

I posted that pic in the Garritan forums once and Frank Belardino reckons he was still laughing the next day... 8)


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## Niah (Mar 16, 2005)

It's the IRON MAN !


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 16, 2005)

Ok - based on a suggestion from Christian M we went ahead and set up a private section to for those serious about this to discuss the particulars of this project which is kept away from public viewing. I added most of the respondants into a private group - if you're seriously interested and would like to be part of the private group then let either Ned or myself know and one of us will be sure to add you in.


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## Tod (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm Sorry Frederick, I think that might be a mistake. Of all the posts I've been following, not only here in VI but others also, this is the most exciteing and interesting post I've yet to encounter.

I for one would like to follow this and may even like to participate if it were possible. Please don't take it away from my reach.

Tod


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## choc0thrax (Mar 16, 2005)

I think all you have to do is ask Frederick and he'll enable you to continue discussing this in the "secret area".


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 16, 2005)

Hi Tod - you're added! 

We of course can continue to discuss this in public - but in order to make it more of a reality, logistics and implementation needs to be discussed, organized and worked out so it can - hence a separate discussion area.


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## Tod (Mar 16, 2005)

Thank you Frederick,

"Secret Place". Okaaaay.

Wish I knew how to use the smileys, I might be able to better express myself.

I'm realy looking forward to where this topic goes.

Once again, Thankyou
Tod


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 16, 2005)

Sounds great Fred. So, aren't you in as well?


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 16, 2005)

Yep

see: http://www.sanctusangelis.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=970


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 17, 2005)

Tod said:


> Thank you Frederick,
> "Secret Place". Okaaaay.
> Wish I knew how to use the smileys, I might be able to better express myself.
> I'm realy looking forward to where this topic goes.
> ...



Tod, if you don't know how to use the smileys, you can't be a member of our secret group :twisted:


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 17, 2005)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Tod said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you Frederick,
> ...



Patrick, you only use the evil ones.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 17, 2005)

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D 

I actually do not want any part in the schemes of the dark one
(but I like to tease)


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 17, 2005)

Ok Patrick. You're in :D


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 17, 2005)

Am I excluded to get in on this? :D I could just do some editing of the final stuff and let all the rest of you guys do the rest

Just kidding. It's interesting. Will be cool to see what comes out of this effort.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 17, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> Am I excluded to get in on this?



Interested as well huh, Simon?

Does that mean something is not entirely right in your private collection? hehehe :D


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 17, 2005)

Herman Witkam said:


> Simon Ravn said:
> 
> 
> > Am I excluded to get in on this?
> ...



Except for the horns, everything we got is better than everything on the market. But you can always use more samples and who knows, maybe something good will come out of this.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 17, 2005)

Yeah. Having additional samples to choose from is like having additional musicians to choose from. Btw Simon - what format do you use, and are you a programmer as well?


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 17, 2005)

Herman Witkam said:


> Yeah. Having additional samples to choose from is like having additional musicians to choose from. Btw Simon - what format do you use, and are you a programmer as well?



I use GigaStudio and yes I am. But I don't think I'll be in on this even if I was allowed


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## Andy B (Mar 17, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> Except for the horns, everything we got is better than everything on the market.



Hmm.....that's quite a boast :D . I'd be intrested in how (if you have 8) ) you've managed to pull off true legato a la VSL...


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 17, 2005)

Maybe he just recorded all the intervals between all possible notes on the instruments in any tempo that he uses to compose in :D


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 17, 2005)

Andy B said:


> Simon Ravn said:
> 
> 
> > Except for the horns, everything we got is better than everything on the market.
> ...



I'm not gonna say much more about this, but that I'll mostly use custom stuff in my template eventually. I will still use SI, especially for the horns and some SAM stuff too. But I think 90% of my template will be custom eventually.


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## KingIdiot (Mar 17, 2005)

there's ways to do interval sampling that doesnt require the time that VSLhas put nto their samples....

I'd love to help, but there are two probs

1. I'm part of the PP group

2. I hate editing right now, in fact, I had hated editing so much (near break down in fact) that I didnt get to finish my part of the work on PP (samples edited and tweaked but not programmed)...then I was broke and EW/QL offered me work on the choir so I took it...now I hate editing/programming again

I still will do some additional programming on the PP stuff, and then I've got a little work on EWQLSO Pro (very minimal), and then I've got a couple of sampling projects I'm working on for myself. Through all this time I'm tryign to find some composing work/time. I'm actually planning on getting an assistant for all the sample work finally....

so good luck, yes I could always use more samples (actually I'm beginning to think this is wrong), but I dont think I'd be able to help much.

BTW, at your current rate of just having anyone buy in....its obviously gona get out, so all of you willing payers better not worry about everyone in the world having them (they will end up on SFont sites and traded no matter how big), Somehow I doubt thats teh concern here tho.

I dont think you should sell it, maybe a membership fee to be a part of the "group" that determines whats recorded, and ultimately the only ones who SHOULD get the samples....

good luck, its an arduous process, but since its a first time for many of you, you might actually enjoy it, until you have to do it again, because you want more


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## Andy B (Mar 17, 2005)

Simon Ravn said:


> True legato isn't even half as important as the overall sound, character and life of the samples...



.....given - in certain situations.

I've not heard much of the PP (?) library, but what I have heard sounds timbrally amazing. However, I would be interested in hearing something that displays some agility and dexterity, especially concerning legato runs. I'm not talking about staccato here. VSL achieves these things and to me they are more than half important when it comes to getting closer to being able to compose as if I was writing for real instruments rather than being tied down to what sounds best with the samples.


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## Craig Sharmat (Mar 17, 2005)

i will agree with Andy. I still find VSL extremely useful even though i have PP. i went back and did a cue fairly recently using just VSL after using PP and it is one of my favorite cues i have written this year. It's the composer more than the library.


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 17, 2005)

I agree with you regarding woodwinds, solo strings etc. for lyrical stuff Aboslutely, there I'll still use VSL. Not much for strings and brass though.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 17, 2005)

Please Pardon my Prying, but what, in Peter's name, is PP??? Did I miss that in The Da Vinci Code?


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## choc0thrax (Mar 17, 2005)

PP is Project Prague. The Simon and co. custom library.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 17, 2005)

ROFL!

Been away for a few days from this forum and you guys have managed to create a nine page thread within no time.

This forum is doing well!!!!

If I would have had the appropriate funds when the PP project was in preparation I would have absolutely participated in it. I knew about the plans, and now it's working, I really applaude for what the shareholders have managed to pull off!

BTW, why are we never hearing anything from TJ anymore?


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## choc0thrax (Mar 17, 2005)

TJ is probably too good now to spend time talking on some forum. Once you reach a certain point you're not really supposed to talk to the general public or that's how it seems.


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## Herman Witkam (Mar 17, 2005)

People start being "too busy to post". Then I ask myself, how many seconds does it take to post even a single reply in a topic...



Peter Roos said:


> This forum is doing well!!!!



You're kidding me right? :lol: The forum is doing GREAT! *insert low Scottish voice with rolling R*


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 17, 2005)

I have had very nice chats with Thomas on #midi-mokup and exchanged and talked about demos, etc.

A really good thing to look back to...

If TJ's reading this: 
Man! I really hope you're able to do the things that you want to and what your passions are telling you to do in this life!

Best,


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## AndreasWaldetoft (Mar 17, 2005)

Interesting, I would love to chime in on this project. Both with ideas and programming for giga 3


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## Patrick de Caumette (Mar 17, 2005)

In order for this to work at the level we would love to see it work, we need to have talent at every level of the process. Picking the right musicians, engineer, director/supervisor...

... and then the other part (editing and programming), I am not so worried about :wink: 

So the question of who is going to direct the project from Prague is a crucial one.

Maybe, because there are some of you already there or not too far from the destination, we should vote on a very small group among us that, as a team, would do the preparation and would oversee the recordings.

For this, I propose that candidates offer their participation and their resume 8) and the group votes on it ...

Of course we'd need to trust these individuals with our money, that they are not hanging out at the most select place in town drinking to our health while you anxiously wait for our samples :?

ps: how do you post at the private forum?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 17, 2005)

Patrick, you're already a member. Just go here: 

http://www.sanctusangelis.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=51


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## Niah (Mar 17, 2005)

I would like to be a member as well if that's ok.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 17, 2005)

Presto: you are! :D


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## Niah (Mar 17, 2005)

Thank You Ned 8)


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## Dan Selby (Mar 19, 2005)

me too please!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 19, 2005)

Abracadabra... You're in too!


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## Dan Selby (Mar 19, 2005)

Thanks, Ned!


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## Lpp (Mar 21, 2005)

Oi, oi... two weeks in my honeymoon and the world is another in here 

If it is still possible, I would like to chime in,


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## handz (Mar 21, 2005)

heh, 
So What?s new in our project? :D I still getting "board unaviable" when try to acces it :cry: 


So! PP is Project Prague....I just asked my spies at Prague about it :twisted: 8)


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 22, 2005)

Folmann said:


> Count me in too.
> 
> :roll:



Your wish is my command: voil


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## Lpp (Mar 22, 2005)

Hey !!!!!!

I came first... I wished before Folman... menno !!!


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 22, 2005)

Done


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## Lpp (Mar 22, 2005)

ahem... thanks


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 22, 2005)

Sorry, cher Prince - I thought I added you already! My mistake... :cry: :wink:


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## jc5 (Apr 5, 2005)

Hello,
many of you may remember seeing me on NS and other sample company forums, just discovered this forum
Sounds like an excellent project, I would certainly be interested in participating. I have little money, but can contribute time - I know how to program in Gigastudio. Cutting up samples and putting them together is tedious work, but I will deal with it in the name of the cause. 8) 
If there is a private group discussion going on, I would appreciate being added.

And to add my first 'opinion', I think true legatos and portamentos are EXTREMELY important... :wink: 
Some rich smooth strings is something I am also interested in - as well as the FF brass, with a very sharp initial attack. Very emotive woodwinds (with legato) are also high on my list.


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## Aaron Sapp (Apr 5, 2005)

Hey jc5 - unfortunately, programming/editing work alone won't be enough to include you (or anyone) in VI-Pro (formerly VICOL). The fee is $995, and every member will have to program/edit a portion of the library.


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## jc5 (Apr 5, 2005)

Aaron Sapp said:


> Hey jc5 - unfortunately, programming/editing work alone won't be enough to include you (or anyone) in VI-Pro (formerly VICOL). The fee is $995, and every member will have to program/edit a portion of the library.



I see... it is a little steep... I fully expected to pay something, but was hoping not so much... 
I would still be interested, but it would depend on the nature of the library and what sort of quality can we expect? I guess some decisions have been made in private already? A collection of just FX is not so interesting to me (especially for the price), but a well done comprehensive library certainly would.


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## Aaron Sapp (Apr 5, 2005)

Of course we're shooting for high quality work, but it is a risk like anything else.  The main focus of VI-Pro will be multi-samples, not effects. A preliminary articulation list is being put together, and we're juggling a few ideas about where to record the samples. 

The number of members will be limited to 30. We're nowhere near that at the moment, but I reckon once we start polishing our plans, more and more people will become interested. $1000 for an opportunity like this is incredibly cheap in my opinion. There aren't any commercial libraries that I know of that offer what we're hoping to achieve in terms of sound/articulations.


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## jc5 (Apr 5, 2005)

Aaron Sapp said:


> Of course we're shooting for high quality work, but it is a risk like anything else.  The main focus of VI-Pro will be multi-samples, not effects. A preliminary articulation list is being put together, and we're juggling a few ideas about where to record the samples.
> 
> The number of members will be limited to 30. We're nowhere near that at the moment, but I reckon once we start polishing our plans, more and more people will become interested. $1000 for an opportunity like this is incredibly cheap in my opinion. There aren't any commercial libraries that I know of that offer what we're hoping to achieve in terms of sound/articulations.



It sounds like things are moving in a very interesting direction. I understand that there is obviously some risk involved, since obviously nothing has been recorded yet! :wink: 
I would certainly like to know what kind of thoughts and conclusions are being made about sound/articulations. Has anyone brought up ricochets for the string sections yet? And what in a certain other library are called 'fingered tremolos'?
Frankly, it does sound like this is a rare opportunity and I am pretty excited at the prospect. I'd love to know more about what the people who are already in have already started to decide on. And I am intrigued by this mysterious new recording technique that has been mentioned a few times. :D


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## choc0thrax (Apr 5, 2005)

I'm in for a thousand bucks. Unfortunately I don't know how to program/edit. Is there somewhere where I could learn? I have Kontakt.


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## jc5 (Apr 6, 2005)

I want to hear more about the details of course, but I will also (tentatively pending those details!  ) say I'm in.

Here's to making magnificent music! 8)


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 6, 2005)

choc0thrax said:


> I'm in for a thousand bucks. Unfortunately I don't know how to program/edit. Is there somewhere where I could learn? I have Kontakt.



Choco,

editing is relatively easy. you can slice up the samples in your audio sequencing programming. If you have not worked on audio before look up in your manual of your program on how to slice up audio. Once done slicing you will need to name the individual notes you have created. You can then send a few test samples to a programmer or you can learn to program in what ever format we choose, Kontakt or GS most likely. With 30 people on board I would think both versions will get covered. 

The edits by the way should work for either format, so the programming into GS or Kontakt is the last step and the edits are the base for either one.


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## IvanP (Apr 6, 2005)

As I thought from the beggining, we are going to learn a lot with all this


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 6, 2005)

there ia alot of drudgery which goes with editing and programming. Much time spent doing the same thing over and over and over and over.

There is some cool things which come out of it too, or at least for me i have the following experience. If you just edit you will not get the joy of creating your own patches. Once you edit and create your own patch it becomes a lot more personal and your understanding improves of that musical articulation. you really understand a patch better than if it was given to you. your understanding of at least what you programmed becomes better and also in grains that part of the library into your personal knowlege base.


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## jc5 (Apr 6, 2005)

Craig Sharmat said:


> there ia alot of drudgery which goes with editing and programming. Much time spent doing the same thing over and over and over and over.
> 
> There is some cool things which come out of it too, or at least for me i have the following experience. If you just edit you will not get the joy of creating your own patches. Once you edit and create your own patch it becomes a lot more personal and your understanding improves of that musical articulation. you really understand a patch better than if it was given to you. your understanding of at least what you programmed becomes better and also in grains that part of the library into your personal knowlege base.




Good points. I despise the drudgery... but even in editing some of my old samples to try and get some new life out of them, one learns a great deal - and you can get things just to your liking and needs.
In the end it is the results that makes it worthwhile!


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## Abel (Apr 10, 2005)

Nice idea with VIPRO, though I have some doubts...

1. Best musicians = best instruments = best sound quality = never cheap

2. I really doubt that you can produce a state of the art library for just 30 grands.

3. Wouldn't it be more efficient to define the articulation/instrument list and then make a business offer to one of leading developers (I'd vote for SI) for sponsoring their production? It would work as a kind of *a long term preorder groupbuy*. If you allowed more members you could easily make a $100,000 serious offer.


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## FilmComposerZ (Apr 10, 2005)

Abel said:


> Nice idea with VIPRO, though I have some doubts...
> 
> 1. Best musicians = best instruments = best sound quality = never cheap
> 
> ...



Abel has a good point....


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## Frederick Russ (Apr 10, 2005)

Great idea, except for one distinction: it has not been determined by the VI-PRO group that this library will be available commercially. In fact it may stay a custom library. We won't know until it comes back up for vote.


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## Abel (Apr 10, 2005)

let's be realistic about some facts:

1. there is progress in sample libraries, in every few years there comes something groundbreaking.
2. if there is not enough experience, more money is needed for development
3. we want the wholly grail -- the ultimate, complete library, with great sound and easy to use to let us be composers not engineers
4 good real orchestra with top live musicians will always be a better, more expressive solution
5. we cannot afford or don't want to spend a $100,000 for a submission fee to have $3M budget, because of point 4.

on the other hand everyone wants some exclusivity, not something available in every shop.

the magic word would be *negotiations*. 
Exclusivity is a value, so is experience and quality production. We could ask the developer for an exclusivity period (like 1 year) after which developer will be entitled to publish the library (or part of it).

The question is how much you intend to spend and what value will you get in return. IMHO with all DIY approach what you eventually get is on the first place experience, then quality. That's why I suggest selecting a developer that best meets principles of VI-PRO -- ie. samples with reverb etc. (which narrows the choice to SI and EastWest IMHO).


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## Abel (Apr 10, 2005)

do you remember, that some time ago VSL revealed plans of recording 20th century orchestral techniques, including all bowings behind the bridge and other sonoristique fx?
which leads me to conclusion, that group sponsoring offer may be in line with developer's long term recording plans and thus it may just become his priority. Would we call it force user feedback? 

P.S. Frederick would you let me in to your secret place, please?


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## jc5 (Apr 10, 2005)

Abel said:


> The question is how much you intend to spend and what value will you get in return. IMHO with all DIY approach what you eventually get is on the first place experience, then quality. That's why I suggest selecting a developer that best meets principles of VI-PRO -- ie. samples with reverb etc. (which narrows the choice to SI and EastWest IMHO).



I don't know how I feel about such a collaboration, or if it would be possible...
But if such a route IS explored, I would like to suggest the Project SAM team as the developper to be approached for a couple of reasons. First off, both SI and Eastwest are large companies and probably would not have any interest in this (not that I know this to be certain in the least of course :wink: ). Project SAM (to my knowledge) still consists of its original team of people, and they can pretty much act as they choose.
Secondly, I would vote for SAM because they are simply amazing - I don't think anyone would challenge my contention that they do incredible work. I have often wondered what kind of sound they could bring to string sections.

Thing is though, all these companies have projects of their own - and frankly have made enough money already to finance them themselves, without need of collaberating with anyone...

Well, there are some of my thoughts on the matter. :wink:


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## choc0thrax (Apr 11, 2005)

Why would you want those developers involved? The fact that we have to make our own library tells you that they haven't done a good enough job.


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## choc0thrax (Apr 11, 2005)

Project Sam is a bit of an exception.  I'm sure True Strike is great and thus we don't need to record percussion.


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## Abel (Apr 11, 2005)

My point about SI was to choose a developer which already has a complete large orchestral library. This for a couple of reasons: 

Uniformity of timbre -- using different sample sets always involves more mixing efforts, matching reverbs, eq etc. . Sometimes it just cannot be done. And we want suplemental articulations for all strings, brass, ww and perc.

I think, the priority for orch lib manufacturer is to have all basic articulations for all common instruments first, before even thinking about non standard sets. So if the basic whole is done already, the more responsive for user wishes that company can be.


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## Herman Witkam (Apr 11, 2005)

Folmann said:


> Maarten has been involved in many serious orchestral projects and custom recordings, so he is absolutely one of my favourite choices. The question is more whether they would be interested or not.


I don't think he would see the use of having another personal library. He probably has most of the articulations that he needs already, right Maarten? :wink:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 11, 2005)

Abel said:


> P.S. Frederick would you let me in to your secret place, please?



Hey Abel - you're in! 8)


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 11, 2005)

Since this lib still has a chance at being commercial, it is not in Maartens best interest to be a part of this venture. If the library were to be only private, he then might then consider become involved.


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## FilmComposerZ (Apr 11, 2005)

qUESTION:

If this Lib. is to be private, why talk about it so much on the forum and not privately. We all venture in here everyday, and read comments on it, yet we'll never get a grasp of it????


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## Niah (Apr 11, 2005)

Pablo,

The details of this project is being discussed in a private zone of the forum for quite some time now. If you wish to join in just ask the mods.


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