# DAW comparison



## Chizilla (Jan 22, 2020)

A lot of people tend to argue about their personal taste is better saying the DAW they use is the best and the rest is crap, I believe all DAW's does the purpose and our expectations, I've been a Cubase user and an endorser for years and i can't think of another DAW cos. the learning process is never ending.


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## NODZ (Jan 22, 2020)

I use Cubase and Reaper depending on the task. Cubase for composition and most music projects. Reaper for editing, sound design and all stuff, where complicated batch exports come in handy!


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## KallumS (Jan 22, 2020)

I can't see this thread going well...


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## NODZ (Jan 22, 2020)

KallumS said:


> I can't see this thread going well...


Wise words :D


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## easyrider (Jan 22, 2020)

The best daw is the one you know end thread


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## Tfis (Jan 22, 2020)

what was the question?


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## greggybud (Jan 22, 2020)

Chizilla said:


> A lot of people tend to argue about their personal taste is better saying the DAW they use is the best and the rest is crap, I believe all DAW's does the purpose and our expectations, I've been a Cubase user and an endorser for years and i can't think of another DAW cos. the learning process is never ending.


The process of learning is indeed never ending. Here is a club for you to join.




__





Site Map


Things that you want which you can't find anywhere else




www.admiralbumblebee.com


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## Peter Satera (Jan 22, 2020)

MS Paint


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2020)

We’re on thin f***ing ice my pedigree chums, and The Drama Zone shall be under it when it breaks. Now, f*** off.


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## KallumS (Jan 22, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> We’re on thin f***ing ice my pedigree chums, and The Drama Zone shall be under it when it breaks. Now, f*** off.



Have you tried Reaper?


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## jononotbono (Jan 22, 2020)

KallumS said:


> Have you tried Reaper?



Yes. Have you watched the film Snatch? 😂


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## dgburns (Jan 22, 2020)

I wish I could take the best bits of every daw, put them in a blender and create ... N


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## Noeticus (Jan 22, 2020)

Well, I use Presonus Studio One, and have a cup of tea at the same time.


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## brenneisen (Jan 22, 2020)

LMMS


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## jcrosby (Jan 22, 2020)

Well, I use Ableton Live and put on my skinny jeans one leg at a time. I also use Logic, and speaking of pedigree I'd say it's the Wesminster show dog of DAWs.


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## visiblenoise (Jan 22, 2020)

I use FL Studio and I like to party all the time


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 22, 2020)

dgburns said:


> I wish I could take the best bits of every daw, put them in a blender and create ... N



That's kind of what's happened to all of them over the years!


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 24, 2020)

Cakewalk 2.0, unbeatable.


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## kitekrazy (Jan 25, 2020)

I look at their licensing and how frequent they charge for paid upgrades. This prevents me from being a Cubase fanboy. When I started out in this hobby I wish there was a free DAW like Bandlab.


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## Gingerbread (Jan 25, 2020)

I've only used Logic, and I like it fine. But occasionally when I've watched some videos of composers using Cubase, I'm sometimes envious of certain features which seem reeeeaaaallly nice, and aren't (I don't think!) available in Logic.

For instance, like being able to see cc1 data for each track, simulaneously, with all the tracks stacked vertically, which would make drawing in the cc1 data among sections of instrument patches so much easier. While you can do something similar in Automation mode in Logic, you can't edit cc1 in Automation mode.

EDIT: I was wrong. You _can_ edit cc data in Automation mode in Logic.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 25, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> I've only used Logic, and I like it fine. But occasionally when I've watched some videos of composers using Cubase, I'm sometimes envious of certain features which seem reeeeaaaallly nice, and aren't (I don't think!) available in Logic.
> 
> For instance, like being able to see cc1 data for each track, simulaneously, with all the tracks stacked vertically, which would make drawing in the cc1 data among sections of instrument patches so much easier. While you can do something similar in Automation mode in Logic, you can't edit cc1 in Automation mode.


Step Editor...


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## Gingerbread (Jan 25, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> Step Editor...


Hmm, really! I've never used the Step Editor---I'll check it out! Thanks!


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 25, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> Hmm, really! I've never used the Step Editor---I'll check it out! Thanks!


Sorry I don't have the time to explain it, but you can create sets of controller lanes that are stacked and edit them there. Don't jump ship, I've been in Cubase for years and Logic has an edge in many ways such as performance...


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## Gingerbread (Jan 25, 2020)

Played around with the Step Editor, and no, that's not quite what I mean. I'm probably not explaining myself well.

In Cubase, you can view multiple tracks' cc1 simultaneously, but each in their own individual lane, so that you can edit them each individually, while also seeing all the other tracks' cc1 lanes.

Like in this video here:



If there's a way to do that in Logic, I'd love to know!


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## Gingerbread (Jan 25, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> Sorry I don't have the time to explain it, but you can create sets of controller lanes that are stacked and edit them there. Don't jump ship, I've been in Cubase for years and Logic has an edge in many ways such as performance...


Whoops, I posted before seeing your response. Thanks---if you get a chance, I'd love to know how you're doing this. In the meantime, I'll tinker around to see if I can figure it out.


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## Gingerbread (Jan 25, 2020)

Just to update: I just discovered that Logic CAN do exactly what I'd wanted! I'd never realized that you can show cc1 data in track automation, in the Arrange panel. In case I'm not the last remaining person on earth who didn't already know this:

Go into Track Automation mode (key command 'A'), click on the blue button labeled 'Track', and it will change to 'Region'. Now you can edit cc data (Modulation, Expression, Breath, etc.) in the Arrange panel.

I've only used Logic for 13 years :/ Maybe someday I'll get a handle on it, sheesh.


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## charlieclouser (Jan 25, 2020)

Holy crap but the "Load Disabled" mode in Logic 10.4.8 is crazy great. I just finished building out a new template with the following:

- 256 Audio Tracks with stock EQ + Compressor on every track.

- 768 (!) Software Instrument Tracks with EXS24+EQ+Compressor on every track.

- 16x 16-channel multitimbral Software Instruments for VEPro, for a total of 256 VEPro MIDI channels returning to Logic as one stereo pair per 16-MIDI-channel Instance.

- My usual array of 7x 5.1 Stem Submaster Aux Objects feeding a final 5.1 composite mix via sends.

- 14x Space Designers and 14x Stereo Delays for per-stem send effects, front and back for each.

With ALL of the EXS24 Instances loaded with sounds, but no regions in the Arrange (so, and empty template) the Project opens in three seconds. Save times are about the same. THREE SECONDS! This is on a 2013 Mac Pro cylinder 12-core with 64gb RAM.

Ridiculously great.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 25, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Holy crap but the "Load Disabled" mode in Logic 10.4.8 is crazy great. I just finished building out a new template with the following:
> 
> - 256 Audio Tracks with stock EQ + Compressor on every track.
> 
> ...


Yes! Coming from Cubase where I did the same I've been praising Logic's handling of it's disabled mode. Everyone seems to want to run VEP but Logic is working some magic behind the scenes. I'm on a mere quad core, but my template of some 800+ tracks, mostly loaded Kontakt instances all disabled and an array of sends my save times are 2-3 seconds as well. The cool thing is that even after activating say 30+ tracks for a cue, including some big complex patches like Century Strings, the save times are not much longer and can save while listening without a glitch. Cubase would get up to 10+ seconds!


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jan 25, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> Played around with the Step Editor, and no, that's not quite what I mean. I'm probably not explaining myself well.
> 
> In Cubase, you can view multiple tracks' cc1 simultaneously, but each in their own individual lane, so that you can edit them each individually, while also seeing all the other tracks' cc1 lanes.
> 
> ...



Cubase's implementation of this actually kind of sucks because it differentiates between automation and CC data, so you have to either record automation and MIDI simultaneously, which is an extra thing to think about and an extra click or two, or convert MIDI to automation after recording. The problem is, you can't edit that CC1 automation in the MIDI key editor, only in the track. It's really poorly thought out IMO. In Pro Tools, you can display MIDI CCs underneath the track and it is the same data that you can view and edit in the MIDI editor.

EDIT: In Cubase automation doesn't respond to track delay setting, so if you're someone like me who likes using negative track delays and automation doesn't follow, it can become a problem.


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## Gingerbread (Jan 25, 2020)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> Cubase's implementation of this actually kind of sucks because it differentiates between automation and CC data, so you have to either record automation and MIDI simultaneously, which is an extra thing to think about and an extra click or two, or convert MIDI to automation after recording. The problem is, you can't edit that CC1 automation in the MIDI key editor, only in the track. It's really poorly thought out IMO. In Pro Tools, you can display MIDI CCs underneath the track and it is the same data that you can view and edit in the MIDI editor.
> 
> EDIT: In Cubase automation doesn't respond to track delay setting, so if you're someone like me who likes using negative track delays and automation doesn't follow, it can become a problem.


That's interesting. As one scratches deeper, the grass isn't necessarily always greener. Good lesson to learn. Thanks.


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## motomotomoto (Jan 25, 2020)

Long time logic user but been considering testing out some other tools lately. Hear good things about Abelton, studio one, and Tracktion. My main issues with Logic are surrounding automation which I find a pain.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 25, 2020)

motomotomoto said:


> Long time logic user but been considering testing out some other tools lately. Hear good things about Abelton, studio one, and Tracktion. My main issues with Logic are surrounding automation which I find a pain.


Hmmm, I've used them all and find Logic the most straightforward and easy to understand IMO...


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## brenneisen (Jan 26, 2020)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> EDIT: In Cubase automation doesn't respond to track delay setting



annoying


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## Bluemount Score (Jan 26, 2020)

All DAWs are equally bad


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## kitekrazy (Jan 26, 2020)

motomotomoto said:


> Long time logic user but been considering testing out some other tools lately. Hear good things about Abelton, studio one, and Tracktion. My main issues with Logic are surrounding automation which I find a pain.



If I were a Mac user I would probably go with Logic. I've seen production videos where people when from Live to Logic. Ableton doesn't have great screen real estate. Studio One is probably one of the easiest DAWs to switch to. As for Tracktion I've written them off because of few updates between paid versions. Plus it's a different work flow that I find hard to adapt to.


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## borisb2 (Jan 26, 2020)

I'm still using a Tascam 4-track cassette multi recorder.

Ok, kidding. 



InLight-Tone said:


> Everyone seems to want to run VEP but Logic is working some magic behind the scenes. I'm on a mere quad core, but my template of some 800+ tracks, mostly loaded Kontakt instances all disabled and an array of sends my save times are 2-3 seconds as well.



How big are these files with Logic? I have about 700 tracks in Cubase, all disabled as well. While loading doesnt take long, I dont like the fact that the file is about 400MB. So if you are sketching around some ideas, you can quickly create gigabytes and gigabytes of scene files .. necessary?


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 26, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> I'm still using a Tascam 4-track cassette multi recorder.
> 
> Ok, kidding.
> 
> ...


Well you got me there! The finished cues can be 2-3 GB using 8Dio Century Strings and the like. In Cubase my save times were like 10+ seconds, I learned to live with it. I needed to take a breath periodically anyways. In Logic though, the save times are only 2-3 seconds. I AM using m2 drives for storage so that's a factor. Anywho, that's plenty fast for me, the bottleneck is good, solid, marketable musical ideas which no amount of hardware and software seems to help with...


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## dzilizzi (Jan 26, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> That's interesting. As one scratches deeper, the grass isn't necessarily always greener. Good lesson to learn. Thanks.


I've tried a lot of DAWs. There may be a few good things in the new DAW but it is usually outweighed by all the things you loved about your old DAW suddenly being a lot more complicated in the new one. If they do it at all. It really comes down to workflow and what is important to you. That's why this argument never has a satisfactory conclusion.


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## borisb2 (Jan 26, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> ...There may be a few good things in the new DAW but it is usually outweighed by all the things you loved about your old DAW suddenly being a lot more complicated in the new one. If they do it at all...


Let me change one word:

There may be a few good things in the new iOS but it is usually outweighed by all the things you loved about your old iOS suddenly being a lot more complicated in the new one.


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## Alexandre (Jan 27, 2020)

NODZ said:


> Wise words :D


But all vi- c will read it!


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 27, 2020)

I brought Logic X in it's first week of release, back in 2013.
Since then, it's had regular updates, visual refreshes, new features and a monster synth in Alchemy. Now articulation management and game changing dynamic plugin loading.

And all of this for free. I haven't rubbed Apple's palm with gold since that original release. Worth raising a glass to. I haven't looked wistfully at another DAW in over a decade and not likely to do so ever again at this rate.

Not sure if this contributes anything to the discussion, but some positivity for a dreary Monday.


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## mauriziodececco (Jan 27, 2020)

Very long time Cubase user, this summer i bought Logic Pro X for using it on a MacBook Pro without having to bring a precious USB key on the parisian metro.
I like it, and i liked Cubase; but the point is elsewhere: changing DAW is good for your menthal health; no, really, changing the program you use more force you to think in another way, and to organise differently your work, give you new ideas. So, i adopted Logic, but i am pretty sure i would have as happy to do the opposite move.
Like when i dropped emacs to read mails to adopt Thunderbird :->

Maurizio


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## BlackDorito (Jan 27, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Cakewalk 2.0, unbeatable.


Those were the days .... simple days.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 27, 2020)

Logic is great. I sometimes think about going Cubase just to be cross-platform, but my lord that thing is fugly af. I'd rather look at something nicely designed all day.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 27, 2020)

I do enjoy some aspects of Cubase over Logic - the MIDI editor, nested folders, plugin search. Logic is nice and streamlined though. Hard to pick one over the other in my case!


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## dzilizzi (Jan 27, 2020)

I'd like to try Logic, but the dongle is so expensive.  

Actually I picked up a somewhat cheap 2012 mini, but I need to upgrade the drives and haven't time yet. And I haven't watched the how to video enough to feel comfortable unhooking everything.


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## Dom (Jan 29, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> - 16x 16-channel multitimbral Software Instruments for VEPro, for a total of 256 VEPro MIDI channels returning to Logic as one stereo pair per 16-MIDI-channel Instance.


Out of interest, how many seconds does it take for those 16 VEP instances to disconnect, when you're closing the project and start to load a new one? Assuming you're using VEP decoupled.

All those new features, plus SSDs etc now allow us to load projects super fast, but I still find VEP comparatively sluggish, but only on disconnect, at about 1 sec per instance.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 29, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I'd like to try Logic, but the dongle is so expensive.


Once you haven't paid for a few years of Cubase updates you can easily afford it.


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## charlieclouser (Jan 29, 2020)

Dom said:


> Out of interest, how many seconds does it take for those 16 VEP instances to disconnect, when you're closing the project and start to load a new one? Assuming you're using VEP decoupled.
> 
> All those new features, plus SSDs etc now allow us to load projects super fast, but I still find VEP comparatively sluggish, but only on disconnect, at about 1 sec per instance.



One second per VEPro instance sounds about right. Most of the time I don't even have VEPro running - I only use a couple at a time even though I set up the template to have up to 16 available. I run them preserved and decoupled always. If there's no regions in the VEPro MIDI tracks then they don't even connect to the instances. The VEPro plugin (not using the AUv3 version yet) seems to act like any other plugin in that regard - it loads disabled if the tracks are empty.


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## TimCox (Jan 29, 2020)

"The best DAW is a _pencil_ and _paper_"


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## Dom (Jan 30, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> One second per VEPro instance sounds about right. Most of the time I don't even have VEPro running - I only use a couple at a time even though I set up the template to have up to 16 available. I run them preserved and decoupled always. If there's no regions in the VEPro MIDI tracks then they don't even connect to the instances. The VEPro plugin (not using the AUv3 version yet) seems to act like any other plugin in that regard - it loads disabled if the tracks are empty.


That's a good way of speeding up the loading/unloading of projects with VEP! I'm unfortunately preventing the automatic disable feature by having a initialise defaults region on each VEP track. It resets CC1, CC2, CC11, mic mixes and articulation. I may need to re-think that. Or just disable manually for the moment.


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## sourcefor (Feb 9, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Holy crap but the "Load Disabled" mode in Logic 10.4.8 is crazy great. I just finished building out a new template with the following:
> 
> - 256 Audio Tracks with stock EQ + Compressor on every track.
> 
> ...


Can we see a screen shot of your session and do you have mastering/mixbus plugins going as well when you start a project, thanks for your endless wealth of info always!


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## charlieclouser (Feb 9, 2020)

sourcefor said:


> Can we see a screen shot of your session and do you have mastering/mixbus plugins going as well when you start a project, thanks for your endless wealth of info always!



Here is three screenshots of my current template. In the tracks list you can see that I've got a bunch of Folder Track Stacks, each with 16 instruments in it. Only the first one is expanded, and you can see 16 EXS instances full of various kick drums, sub booms, etc. Each of the closed folders is similar - 16 instances of EXS with sounds grouped by category as the Folder Stack names indicate. I know I could use more or less instruments in each Folder Stack, but my brain is hardwired for bricks of sixteen, like MIDI channels. At the bottom are the first few VEP Folder Stacks, each of those contains one 16-MIDI-channel multitimbral instrument (not AUv3), and the way Logic works is that this looks like 16 channel strips in the Environment and Mixer windows, but they all share the same audio path - so moving the volume fader on one of them moves them all, and they all share the same plugins for the audio returning from VEPro. If I want to do individual audio processing I do it inside VEPro. The audio for each Folder Stack returns as a single stereo pair. Each Folder Stack counts as one instance of the VEPro plugin, and a separate instance tab in the VEPro window.

Not shown are the 256 Audio Tracks, which are not grouped into Folder Stacks at all. They are hidden in this screenshot but all 256 are there ready to be used, with compressor and EQ on each.






... and here's a screenshot of part of my Environment window, showing my "output matrix". This contains, from left to right:

Top Row:

- Stereo Outs 1+2 = this just gives me an Object with a "bounce" button for the main L+R outs.

- Composite Mix Auxes = these are Aux Objects in which I sum my stems. Inputs are from busses (which are fed by sends on the individual stem sub masters), and outputs go to hardware outputs 1-6, which in my rig means MADI output 1-6 going over to the ProTools machine, and in the MOTU AVB routing window they're also mirrored to AES outputs 1-6 to drive my speakers which have AES inputs.

- Stem Sub Master Auxes = these are the individual sub masters for each stem. Inputs are from busses; individual Instrument and Audio tracks are sent to those busses which appear here, and outputs are hardware outputs 7-48, so that's MADI going over to the ProTools machine. The sends at the top of each of these Objects are how I sum all the stems into that first set of Composite Mix Aux Objects. Sends are at zero db and I never touch them.

For all of those sub master Auxes you can see that I need to use two stereo objects (for front and rear stereo pairs) as well as two mono objects (for center and LFE). This is because Logic still doesn't let you configure more than one set of surround outputs. So I am basically doing it like you would if you were trying to mix in surround on an old SSL 4k - I'm essentially using stereo and mono busses to jury-rig surround sets. This means that I cannot use true surround compressors, reverbs, etc., but I don't care. This also means that I cannot do true L-C-R panning, but I don't care - I leave the center channel empty almost always, and the dubbing mixers don't mind (some thank me!). If I want to have something appear in the LFE I use a send from the individual channel to the appropriate bus that drives that stem's LFE channel.

And, yes, I do have 14 instances of Waves L3-LL MultiMaximizer, one stereo instance on each of the front + rear pairs for each stem. When I send something to a stem's LFE channel I also put a mono instance there so that everything is consistent, but this happens only now and then. If I used the center channels then I'd do the same thing. Typically these are set to limit at -9db and have an output ceiling of -9db also, so they're not doing much other than clamping down HARD whenever something goes above -9db, but not really changing overall level. If the composite mix starts to clip, then I just trim the output ceilings of all L3's by the same amount, down to -12db or so. I only move in 3db increments so I don't get confused, and I almost always have all limiters set exactly the same way across all stems. I play, record, do sound design, and listen with these limiters engaged ALWAYS. Latency is nominal and I don't even notice it. CPU load is almost nothing.

Bottom Row:

- Master Fader = this is a great Logic feature - it will trim the levels of ALL OUTPUTS by the same amount, so if things are a little too hot on the output I can bring this down a bit and all 48 outputs get lowered by the same amount. I almost never need to do this, but it's nice to have in an emergency.

- Click, Preview, Ableton ReWire return, Aux 62 (which is the Reason ReWire return that I forgot to name). All of these go to the stereo out and NOT to a bus, so when I'm bouncing something from Ableton it won't accidentally pass through the stem sub masters and their limiters. This is how I get audio from Ableton or Reason into Logic - I just use "object solo with nothing selected" in Logic's Main Window and do the bounce. The reason there's a Gain plugin on the Click Object is to force all the Objects to be sized to show a whole bunch of plugin slots - Logic will dynamically change the size of all Objects to show however many plugin slots the biggest one uses, so that is just a placeholder to force them all to have a bunch of slots so that things don't start changing size as I work, which would mess up my nice tidy placement of the rows. Not shown in this template is the fact that I also put a fifth send from the Click Object to a dummy LFE bus, so that all of the Objects have space for six sends (four for the front+back reverb+delay, one for the LFE send, and then the empty one below). 

- Front and Rear Space Designer and Stereo Delay for each stem. These Aux Objects are fed by busses, and their outputs are the busses that feed the stem sub master Aux Objects directly above them. So, busses 1-64 are for routing audio through stem sub masters, and busses above that are for sending individual tracks to the appropriate reverb and delay for their stem.






... and finally here is a small chunk of the Instrument, Audio, and VEPro Multitimbral Instrument Objects in my Environment. (You can't see the VEPro Objects, but they are in a row below the Audio Objects.) All of this stuff is directly to the right of my output matrix in the same Environment Layer. (I could separate it all into different layers but that gets messy). The top row is Instruments, the middle row is Audio Tracks, and the bottom row is the VEPro Multitimbral Instrument arrays. I break everything up into 16-channel bricks to correspond to the Folder Stacks and avoid just having an unbroken row of Objects. (I did this screenshot from an in-progress version of the template before I put compressors and EQs on all the audio tracks, but having 256 more of them doesn't change the load time at all.)

The pretty colored labels are Fader Objects, style = As Text, value range = 1, and the text shown on the label is entered into the field where you'd enter 128 Preset Names if it were a pop-up for selecting patches on a hardware synth or whatever. They are essentially pop-up menu buttons with a single value, and that value contains the text I want to display. The actual names of the Objects appear below each Object, NOT in the colored part, so their names are all "-". Not apparent is the fact that this window will scroll to the right to show all 768 Instruments in the top row, 256 Audio Tracks, and 16 times 16 VEPro channels.

I have all of that stuff in a single Environment Layer. Another Layer has things like Objects sending to hardware MIDI devices, stuff like the "Physical Input" and "Sequencer Input" Objects, etc. A third Layer contains those weird Master Faders for each Folder Stack, which you can't delete and which share the name of the Folder Stack itself. I don't need to (or ever want to) touch them so I stash them in a Layer that I never look at.

And this whole mess loads in about three seconds, even with all 768 EXS Instances having sound in them. Of course they are deactivated until you select their track, but then they load in about a second each. Kontakt and Omnisphere take a bit longer the first time you select them. You can see I've got a couple 16-channel Folder Stacks where I put Omnisphere and Kontakt stuff so it doesn't get mixed in with all my nice, quick-loading, EXS stuff.


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## charlieclouser (Feb 9, 2020)

- edit to add - I should note that this whole beast absolutely flies on my 2013 Mac Pro cylinder 12-core with 64gb RAM. Loads and saves in three seconds, never feels boggy or laggy, just click-click-boom the whole time. It's essentially a 7-stem version of the 3-stem template I made in 2004 - Logic has always had the capabilities to do pretty much everything I'm doing in this template, but now the number of Instruments / Tracks / Busses is through the roof. So while I'm using 3/4 of the available Instrument slots I've got another 700 or so Audio Tracks I could use as well as an absolute boatload of busses I'm not using, so I could switch over to bussing my stems to empty Audio Tracks and start printing stems back into the cue itself - but I don't wanna. I like having a separate ProTools machine that receives my stems.

I built the original 3-stem template when there were only 64 busses, and I was connecting from Logic to ProTools via 3x eight-channel ADAT streams, so that was three surround stems and a surround composite mix.

In 2004!

In those days Cubase users were.... not as happy as I was. Logic is such a beast, and has been for a long time. This configuration with 7 stems has been up and running for about five years or so at my place, only the number of Instruments has changed really. Fourteen Space Designers, fourteen Stereo Delays, and fourteen L3-LL's is nothing on the CPU. Even on the first Mac Pros I was running six of each fifteen years ago - might even have been G5 machines back then. No prob. Logic wins the efficiency battle, hands down. Always has.

Now that there are more busses I may raise the number of stems and use up 60 of my MADI output channels (for 9 stems plus one composite mix, each in 5.1), instead of the 48 I'm using now (for seven 5.1 stems plus one composite mix). If I switch down to Quad or 4.1 I could even squeeze a few more stems in there, but then I lose compatibility with the industry standard 5.1 configuration, so probably won't do that.

When I make the switch to the beastly new Mac Pro there's no telling how crazy the performance will be. I may even do what Neil is doing and run the ProTools system on the same computer but with separate hardware - right now my PT rig is an HDnative Thunderbolt with Avid MADI and SyncHD running on a separate Mac Pro cylinder 6-core with only 16gb of RAM, and I record right to the boot drive with negligible CPU load. Even when recording 48 tracks while playing 48 or 96 underneath (for multi-passes and overlapping cues) the 6-core doesn't even break a sweat. Minimal CPU load and zero bars showing on the PT disc meter.

But it is very nice to just have a separate PT "print rig" and it keeps that side of the equation nice and tidy. I can make a mess on the Logic rig but the deliverables rig stays crisp and clean.

The main thing I'm hoping for in a future Logic update would be the ability to configure multiple surround output sets - instead of just the one that you configure in Project Settings, the suggestion was made by Clemens to have that be a "tabbed" window where you could configure surround sets A-Z. He asked me, "Would 26 surround sets be enough?" (!!!) The good news is that he told me that all of Logic's internal audio pathways are "N" channels wide, so every Instrument, Bus, Aux, and Audio Track can be up to full Atmos and beyond with no changes to the engine - it's just the configuring of output sets that needs to be changed. Then I could have a single surround Aux for each stem sub master, instead of the kludgy way of using two stereo+two mono Auxes to make a surround set. Then I could also start using true surround reverbs, delays, limiters, etc. 

That would be nice.


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## sourcefor (Feb 9, 2020)

Wholly shit your explanations are unprecedented here or anywhere! You should write user manuals! Thank you so much for answering my and all others‘ questions, your explanations are very informative and useful!


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## sourcefor (Feb 9, 2020)

I envy you as my system does not run great (midi pops and clicks), and I have half as many channels as you, I can only hope to be as tech savvy as you someday! Thanks again!


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## charlieclouser (Feb 9, 2020)

sourcefor said:


> I envy you as my system does not run great (midi pops and clicks), and I have half as many channels as you, I can only hope to be as tech savvy as you someday! Thanks again!



Part of the reason my rig runs so smoothly is because it's pretty vanilla - even though I do have over 1,100 AudioUnit plugins installed, I'm not sprinkling them around like crazy. I use them as and when needed, but to be honest the stock Logic effects are as good or better than 90% of third-party ones, and I have most third-party plugins out there.

The Logic Tremolo plugin is one of my favorites, allowing you to turn any drone into a pulse, do stereo panning effects, reverse suck-ups, etc. Logic's AutoFilter is better than just about any other plugin out there, and can do all sorts of rhythmic stuff and crazy distortions as well. The only things I really rely on from the third-party world is mastering limiters like Ozone and Waves L series.

Another reason my rig runs so smoothly is because I'm very careful to create a new template, completely from scratch, when I update Logic. I don't do it often because it takes a few days - before updating to Logic v10.4.8 I was on v10.2.4 for years and years. So when it's time to update I do not start with an old template, or import elements from old ones - nothing. I start at zero and build it out piece by piece so there's no pollution from old Objects that may have garbage references to busses that don't exist or are numbered differently, etc.

I only use the Environment, and never use the Mixer at the bottom of the Main Window. I've opened it a couple of times but I don't like it. Even though the Environment doesn't look as slick, I've been using it for 25 years and I know how it works. So I don't need a "reorder mixer channels" feature like everyone complains about. I keep the Environment open and full-screen on a second display, and when you enable the little purple button at the top it will auto-scroll to whatever Object is the destination for the currently-selected track. Between this, and the channel strip in the lower left corner of the Main Window, I'm all set.

I'm also very careful with my use of third-party plugins like Kontakt and Omnisphere. I might be a bit of a luddite, but I just don't fully trust 'em. Kontakt has definitely screwed with me now and then, but it was probably pilot error. Omnisphere is a bit delicate as well sometimes. So I use them, but I bounce out their results to audio and then remove the plugin from my Project. When it's all audio, EXS, and stock Logic plugins the Project will absolutely open and play on just about any Mac from the last decade. Believe it or not, that huge template opens and works just fine on my 2012 MacBook Pro with quad-core i7. Even my biggest cues will play just fine on my laptop over the internal speakers - it's crazy. I may need to raise the buffer size one or two clicks, but it all works just fine.

One benefit of being so anti-third-party is that I can open Logic Projects from decades ago and everything is there and sounds as I left it. This week I'm opening cues from the first SAW movie in 2004 and grabbing elements, and every single EXS Instrument is there and sounds correct, all of the plugins and audio tracks are just as I left them, and it all sounds correct. The only thing that's not still with me is TC's MasterX5 mastering limiter, which ran on the discontinued PowerCore DSP platform. After being stung by that loss, my proclivity for using only stock Logic plugins only increased!

I also keep my Environment and audio setup very clean and tidy. I absolutely do not create Instruments, Auxes, Audio Track Objects, or anything else on the fly as I'm working. That stuff is all set up in the template. I leave a few empty Instruments here and there, maybe the last four in every fourth brick of 16, so I have some wild-card slots to drop a new EXS sound into without trying to decide what I'm not using. I always turn off "Automatic Management of Channel Strips" or whatever it's called; if it's turned on then Logic will be creating and deleting Objects all the time and your Environment is a mess in minutes. So I prepare for the biggest scenario I can envision and then I just have to fit whatever I'm doing into that setup. 256 Audio tracks are ready and waiting, even if I only use three. The only time I create a new tracks is when I'm creating a new track in the Arrange window that refers to an already-existing Instrument or Audio Object. I NEVER create those objects on the fly.

I've never, and I mean NEVER, had a white noise blast, clicks and pops, or anything other than the familiar stutter-and-stop that Logic does when you absolutely top out the CPU. I give all the credit to the MOTU audio interfaces I've been using for more than 20 years. They have never screwed with me, never sent blasts of white noise to the speakers, and the five or ten times the interface doesn't wake up in time to be recognized by the time I boot Logic, a restart fixed everything. This is true for the PCI-424 series and the new AVB stuff as well - but I've never used their older FireWire interfaces. I've had RME interfaces and they're pretty good but even their latest Thunderbolt box that I tried lost comms with the computer a couple times a day, etc. Back to the store it went. Maybe they're better on Windows than Mac, I don't know. But MOTU has been beyond rock-solid for me forever, so I'm sticking with them.

I run my audio interfaces on internal clock when the ProTools rig is not turned on, and when I am printing stems I send word clock from the ProTools rig to the MOTU AVB boxes, and send LTC timecode from the Avid SyncHD peripheral over an actual XLR cable to the Unitor MIDI interface on the Logic rig. This has worked for 25 years and still works perfectly today. No weirdness at all. One click on the MOTU setup page to slave the audio clock to incoming word clock, and I'm good. I do not use an external word clock generator, master clock, or any of that stuff. I have had things like the Big Ben, Roshendahl Nanosyncs, etc. in the past but I did not like the results or workflow.

I try to be calm, careful, and conservative with how I deploy technology and this approach seems to work - although it's probably the only area of my life in which I'm calm, careful, and conservative!


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## sourcefor (Feb 9, 2020)

You are a star in my book brotha and I will definitely take this info and run with it, I cannot thank you enough! and I hope to hear more of your scores as own every single one of them and loved the series you did called wayward pines, cheers!

David Scott


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