# Remote musicians who work out of a real studio, instead of a bedroom/living room?



## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 7, 2017)

Hey all!

I try to hire out local LA players when I can afford, but I have a project that might need little bits of overdubs here and there and I think it might be more doable, and budget-friendly, if I find remote players where the hourly price isn't quite as high. 

The problem I have is I'd _really_ prefer that they be recorded in a proper studio, since to me a good room is a big part of an instrumental recording (I know that a lot can be done to manage a less-than-perfect recording - not looking for advice on how to make a living room recording work, not that there's anything wrong with that advice, just don't want people to waste their breath!).

Does anyone know of a resource to find musicians that actually record in a studio, and get samples/quotes? Maybe it doesn't exist, but man it'd be great if it did. I know I can take the time to find the musicians, then try to find the studio, etc. etc... Just hoping for an easy solution as I don't have loads of time.

Thanks!!!!!

C.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 7, 2017)

Have you tried Session Exchange? It seems like the website database is being shut down but the Facebook group will remain active. Not sure how many of them have "real" studios. Honestly, IMO it doesn't matter as long as they record it well. Just look at Tina Guo. She records from her very simple home studio for a lot of projects. One of the composers I work with a lot records everything for his scores (and some fairly big budget projects) in a large empty room at his house. He also does a lot of recording there for other composers and musicians. Completely untreated (but huge) room.

If you're looking for a violinist, I'd be happy to help.


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## Daryl (Dec 8, 2017)

Rennaissance_manta_ray said:


> Hey all!
> 
> I try to hire out local LA players when I can afford, but I have a project that might need little bits of overdubs here and there and I think it might be more doable, and budget-friendly, if I find remote players where the hourly price isn't quite as high.



Can you put a price on "too high", so that we know your ballpark?


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 8, 2017)

Daryl said:


> Can you put a price on "too high", so that we know your ballpark?



Sure! The studio I usually use is Andrew Bush's Grandma's Warehouse (which I highly recommend, especially Andrew, if anyone is in LA) and his hourly is usually around $65/hr. Then depending on the musician it's usually in the ballpark of $150-200/hr. The studio has a 3hr minimum, so I've got to book at least 3hrs of session work, which for this gig, doesn't really make sense. But if remote work in a comparable studio cost just as much... I'd just do what I usually do because I can go to the sessions, and I know Andrew Bush will do a great job. 
SO... less than that would be great. Especially if it was way less, which remote work sometimes is. 

I'm really looking for a resource that would show the musician, and the studio they work in, along with audio examples, and a way to get a quote. Something easy so I can compare a lot of geographic regions and make a quick, well-informed, economical choice. It's looking like it doesn't exist though. Someone should totally put this together though if it doesn't!


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 8, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Not sure how many of them have "real" studios. Honestly, IMO it doesn't matter as long as they record it well. Just look at Tina Guo. She records from her very simple home studio for a lot of projects. One of the composers I work with a lot records everything for his scores (and some fairly big budget projects) in a large empty room at his house. He also does a lot of recording there for other composers and musicians. Completely untreated (but huge) room.
> .



I knew someone wouldn't be able to resist just saying hire someone to work not in a studio!  That's why I put that disclaimer in the original post, but I also knew that was probably in vain. 

Again, I'm not down on wild recordings in raw spaces, as I know from experience they can work great sometimes. I'm trying to find a specific thing here though, so I'm hoping that the info is available somewhere.

To that point, Gerhard, do you record in a proper studio ever, and if so can you link to it. Then maybe we can talk rates etc. in a PM.

Thanks!


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## chillbot (Dec 8, 2017)

@Hannes_F has the best quality at the best price. In my experience. He can do anything from a solo violin to a full orchestra, somehow.


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 8, 2017)

chillbot said:


> @Hannes_F has the best quality at the best price. In my experience. He can do anything from a solo violin to a full orchestra, somehow.


Awesome! Do you know what studio he works out of? I went to his page but it didn't have any info. Of course, I've seen his posts here at VI, but I'm trying to find a way to cut to the chase and just contact musicians who work in a studio so I'm not wasting time saying no, and I don't recall if he's ever mentioned what studio.

Thanks!


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 8, 2017)

Rennaissance_manta_ray said:


> To that point, Gerhard, do you record in a proper studio ever, and if so can you link to it. Then maybe we can talk rates etc. in a PM.



Technically ya, I record in a "proper" studio... my control room. I have a couple of diffusers I bring in but it's still quite dead. It's been years since I've recorded in my live room. No need for it and everyone has been happy with my recordings anyway. Too much of a hassle to go out there and record myself so I record everything in here. By your logic, this would probably be worse than in a raw space. Having said that, I'm usually the one mixing these projects as well so I know how to handle it. I wouldn't be surprised if Tina Guo's remote recordings in her bedroom space sound better.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying you should get someone to record themselves with a webcam. They should have decent gear, know how to record well, and maybe have some acoustic treatment. I've heard some pretty terrible recordings come out of studios so just because it's being recorded in a studio doesn't mean it'll be any good. Especially if you're not there to give feedback. I'd be much more comfortable with a musician who can properly record themselves. They tend to do a much better job than an inexperienced engineer who *thinks* they know how it should sound.


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## chillbot (Dec 8, 2017)

Rennaissance_manta_ray said:


> Do you know what studio he works out of?


He's in that studio over in Germany.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 8, 2017)

I know someone in LA who could record various violins. He's not as skilled of a performer and he records in his control room (which I'm not a fan of) but you could probably get some cheaper rates with him. He often hires violinists at high rates when his projects can afford it. A potential choice if the being-in-the-same-room factor is important to you.


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## synthpunk (Dec 8, 2017)

Have the big stages and groups in L.A. tried to "suppress" smaller operators or is that just the way it ?


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 10, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I know someone in LA who could record various violins. He's not as skilled of a performer and he records in his control room (which I'm not a fan of) but you could probably get some cheaper rates with him. He often hires violinists at high rates when his projects can afford it. A potential choice if the being-in-the-same-room factor is important to you.


Thanks Gerhard! That sounds less than ideal though. Perhaps others don't see the value in this, but what I'm looking for in this post is a resource where I can quickly scan through musicians that are "roughly" the same quality as the musicians I use in LA, and see what studios they record in, hear examples, and get a quote. Since no one has chimed in with that resource, I'm guessing it doesn't exist, which is too bad! 
Thanks anyhow! My next idea is to maybe just contact some international studios directly and see if they can give a quote for a package deal with musicians included.


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 10, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Have the big stages and groups in L.A. tried to "suppress" smaller operators or is that just the way it ?


No, I don't think so at all. The big stages are really expensive, and used on top end productions, I don't think there's any incentive to them trying to keep people from recording at smaller studios as it's apples and oranges, and if you have the budget to record at Sony you'll just record there.

The union part is much trickier, as if you do a union gig you for sure have to sort out all of the royalty payments. That part makes it hard to book musicians sometimes, and is why a lot of productions opt for recording in Europe etc.


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## wst3 (Dec 10, 2017)

There was a service that did exactly that, can't recall the name, and can't find it. I have a vague recollection that they were unable to sustain the business. It was headquarted in Northern CA I think.

The problem - I think - is that you aren't going to get much of a discount, except possibly based on location. $65/hour for studio time is pretty darned reasonable anywhere, and especially LA. And if that includes the services of a skilled engineer I don't see how you can beat that. There are just certain fixed costs (and they will vary by location) that you are going to have to cover.

I think that is the factor that has put a damper on remote recording services such as the one you described.

Once you take out most of the overhead then prices can drop, a little. You are still paying for the time and talent, and that's going to run about the same anywhere.

Still I think your idea of being able to shop for a specific musician in a specific setting is pretty cool. Perhaps someone should take a stab at such a service again. They'd just have to keep their share low enough to make it economical. Yeah, that's probably the second problem.

Good luck, and if you do find such a service please share.


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 11, 2017)

wst3 said:


> There was a service that did exactly that, can't recall the name, and can't find it. I have a vague recollection that they were unable to sustain the business. It was headquarted in Northern CA I think.
> 
> The problem - I think - is that you aren't going to get much of a discount, except possibly based on location. $65/hour for studio time is pretty darned reasonable anywhere, and especially LA. And if that includes the services of a skilled engineer I don't see how you can beat that. There are just certain fixed costs (and they will vary by location) that you are going to have to cover.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I wasn't expecting to save too much on the studio, that price is great (it may be a negotiated price, so if others find it more expensive to work with Andrew sorry!) Was mostly thinking of taking advantage of places where the USD is strong, and where cost of living is low. I did a gig in Georgia (country not state) and musician's rates seemed much lower.

I have some travel coming up in Europe, so maybe I'll start poking around at different studios in different countries and see if they have studio musician's they use that have examples and links to their playing, quotes, etc.

As a related question: In Europe/Asia/S. Africa/S. America do they use orchestral contractors to find players like in the states? Or is it just someone who knows everyone in that particular music world? If there's a resource for me to get in touch with those people, that might be a way to do it too.

I'll try and post what I find out. Maybe it could be a kind of crowd-sourced thing where no one would need to make a profit on it, so it'd be just for composers by composers...


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## thesteelydane (Dec 12, 2017)

Well, I'm a small one man operation, so probably not what you're looking for. My current studio is an old cold war bomb shelter in Copenhagen, from back when people thought 50 cm of concrete would protect against a nuclear blast, so again not what you're looking for - but I mostly do multi tracked quartet recordings for singer/song writers and for that its great.


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## ColonelMarquand (Dec 12, 2017)

For any musicians in London, I can highly recommend Simon Fischer if he is available for solo violin work.


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## JJP (Dec 12, 2017)

Rennaissance_manta_ray said:


> Yeah, I wasn't expecting to save too much on the studio, that price is great (it may be a negotiated price, so if others find it more expensive to work with Andrew sorry!) Was mostly thinking of taking advantage of places where the USD is strong, and where cost of living is low. I did a gig in Georgia (country not state) and musician's rates seemed much lower.



In other words, you're happy to pay the studio costs. You just want the same quality of musician you get in LA, but you don't want to pay the musician the same amount. That isn't going to make you many friends among recording musicians. You're basically saying the studio is worth it, but the people who play the music should be paid less.


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## Scoremixer (Dec 12, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Have the big stages and groups in L.A. tried to "suppress" smaller operators or is that just the way it ?



I highly doubt that's the case at all. The trouble is that the situation (as I'm sure you know) generally boils down to two worlds- bigger budget with big studios, session musos and fixers, and teeny budget with (good) players in effectively home studios on a DIY basis. Very few people want anything in between, especially when the results from people's home places are often better than 'good enough'. It takes a very quality conscious and principled composer on a package deal to be willing to hand over more $$$ for a result that might not be worlds away in terms of quality.

Apart from a couple of drummers with their own great places, I'm not really aware of any musos in London who regularly arrange their own remote records from proper studios. Best course of action if the OP has a whole bunch of things to record in a day would be to get in touch with a fixer who can sort players, studio & engineer all in one go (studios don't generally sort musos). But then in cost terms that does start to veer back towards just doing a traditional recording day somewhere, and only makes sense if you have enough stuff to fill a room for a half day or more.


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## Daryl (Dec 12, 2017)

If you are talking abut individual players in a "proper" studio, your best bet is Eastern Europe. Maybe contact [email protected] and see what he can do for you.

https://www.budapestfilmorchestra.com/


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 12, 2017)

JJP said:


> In other words, you're happy to pay the studio costs. You just want the same quality of musician you get in LA, but you don't want to pay the musician the same amount. That isn't going to make you many friends among recording musicians. You're basically saying the studio is worth it, but the people who play the music should be paid less.



I know this is a contentious issue, but I think you have my purpose of this post a bit off. 

Just for clarity, I'm posting so I can hire _more_ musicians, and put more money in their pockets, not less. My intent was that when the budget means I can't afford the musicians i work with in LA, I might have the ability to hire someone remotely instead of using a sample library. You'll notice that the rate I have for a studio is already _really_ good, so I'm not saying that its more important than paying musicians, it's just that it's already a really good deal and will work with smaller budgets so I don't expect that going to a more affordable market will change that much. (If I could save money on a comparable studio that'd be great too.) I'm also not saying that LA musicians aren't worth every penny. They usually are 100%. I'm just saying that on some gigs (sadly most) I can't afford them. So, to your point, if the studio and musicians were apples and oranges, if I went to the store and there was a great deal on apples, but oranges were expensive, I could buy the apples, but not have enough left over for the oranges, which would mean I could either just skip the oranges, or try to find them at a better price elsewhere. I'm very pro-live musician, I just can't always convince producers that they need to pay for them : )

I'm also not interested in cheating any musicians. But I know from experience that the cost of living in LA is very high so musicians need to charge higher rates. I'm hoping that there are places where the cost of living is lower, or the USD is so strong, that musicians can be paid a fair wage, but it still works out to savings for the ever-shrinking music budget. 

Hope that dispels any notion that this post is about making things worse for live musicians.

Thanks!


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 12, 2017)

Daryl said:


> If you are talking abut individual players in a "proper" studio, your best bet is Eastern Europe. Maybe contact [email protected] and see what he can do for you.
> 
> https://www.budapestfilmorchestra.com/


Thanks! I've looked at their offerings for orchestra, but I'll reach out about smaller ensembles/studios.


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 12, 2017)

Scoremixer said:


> I highly doubt that's the case at all. The trouble is that the situation (as I'm sure you know) generally boils down to two worlds- bigger budget with big studios, session musos and fixers, and teeny budget with (good) players in effectively home studios on a DIY basis. Very few people want anything in between, especially when the results from people's home places are often better than 'good enough'. It takes a very quality conscious and principled composer on a package deal to be willing to hand over more $$$ for a result that might not be worlds away in terms of quality.
> 
> Apart from a couple of drummers with their own great places, I'm not really aware of any musos in London who regularly arrange their own remote records from proper studios. Best course of action if the OP has a whole bunch of things to record in a day would be to get in touch with a fixer who can sort players, studio & engineer all in one go (studios don't generally sort musos). But then in cost terms that does start to veer back towards just doing a traditional recording day somewhere, and only makes sense if you have enough stuff to fill a room for a half day or more.



Yeah, I'm always looking for a better mousetrap, but usually find it just leads me back to the original mousetrap because what I'm looking for doesn't exist or just isn't practical.

Maybe it would work as shared sessions or something? I was just thinking that in LA I don't record at Sony or The Bridge or anything, but a small-ish good-sounding studio. With a 3hr minimum and a couple musicians you can get an amazing result, but even though it's not a _ton_ of $, it's frequently too much for small-small-budget stuff. Was thinking that if I could shave off a decent percent I could squeeze it into tight budgets by doing the same remotely instead of just using samples. Sigh.

Also, sometimes I've seen really interesting musicians who play ethnic instruments in various locations around the world, but on the gig-finding sites the recordings always sound a bit too bedroom-y for me. Was thinking if you could book them for a few hours in a good studio you could get some great stuff.


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 12, 2017)

thesteelydane said:


> Well, I'm a small one man operation, so probably not what you're looking for. My current studio is an old cold war bomb shelter in Copenhagen, from back when people thought 50 cm of concrete would protect against a nuclear blast, so again not what you're looking for - but I mostly do multi tracked quartet recordings for singer/song writers and for that its great.



Have you worked in any studios in Copenhagen that you really liked the room sound for strings? If you could link them here that'd be great.

Thanks!


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 12, 2017)

ColonelMarquand said:


> For any musicians in London, I can highly recommend Simon Fischer if he is available for solo violin work.


Have you found London to be more affordable than LA? I was always thinking it'd be around the same.


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## thesteelydane (Dec 12, 2017)

Rennaissance_manta_ray said:


> Have you worked in any studios in Copenhagen that you really liked the room sound for strings? If you could link them here that'd be great.
> 
> Thanks!


Yes, this: http://www.thevillage.dk

If you book him, please mention that Nicolaj from thesteelydanestrings.com sent you. I played viola on a session for a Japanese singer there this summer, and its a fabulous room.


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## JJP (Dec 13, 2017)

Rennaissance_manta_ray said:


> Just for clarity, I'm posting so I can hire _more_ musicians, and put more money in their pockets, not less. My intent was that when the budget means I can't afford the musicians i work with in LA, I might have the ability to hire someone remotely instead of using a sample library.



I understand your dilemma, and it isn't unique to you. The problem with this approach of seeking equally talented and experienced musicians who can be paid less is that it sends the message to your client that even with a smaller budget, they should be able to expect the same quality and number of personnel. That implies the the more expensive musicians don't bring any additional value. That can be a slippery slope and I've seen some colleagues fall on that slope.

When I'm dealing with this situation, I try to explain that as the budget goes down, they need to reduce their expectations for the number of musicians that can be hired or the quality because we can't get both for less money. The best musicians won't work for less unless there is some sort of a low-budget contract to which they will agree. Usually that means some sort of residual structure so that they aren't left out if the project ends up generating high-budget type returns.


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 13, 2017)

JJP said:


> I understand your dilemma, and it isn't unique to you. The problem with this approach of seeking equally talented and experienced musicians who can be paid less is that it sends the message to your client that even with a smaller budget, they should be able to expect the same quality and number of personnel. That implies the the more expensive musicians don't bring any additional value. That can be a slippery slope and I've seen some colleagues fall on that slope.
> 
> When I'm dealing with this situation, I try to explain that as the budget goes down, they need to reduce their expectations for the number of musicians that can be hired or the quality because we can't get both for less money. The best musicians won't work for less unless there is some sort of a low-budget contract to which they will agree. Usually that means some sort of residual structure so that they aren't left out if the project ends up generating high-budget type returns.



True that. And yeah, I'm sure lots of composers are in the same boat. All of my deals are package deals though, so after the deal is done there's really no negotiating for a larger music budget for players. It's just a delicate chess game of how much of the slim profit I'm making can I spend on creating a product that I'm happy with, the client is happy with, and will help me get the next gig, with hopefully a bigger budget. 

The other thing is I've found that (especially in film) the producers are making these kind of money-saving decisions all the time, so shooting Toronto for NYC, or Georgia for California because of the tax-credits, is just how they view getting the product over the finishing line. So being asked to raise more money to record in LA when it could be (_relatively) _the same product recorded in Prague is a tough ask. I'm sure really big budget films are different (or maybe not...) 

Hopefully someday I'll have the power to push for an all-union LA orchestra, because the sessions I've gone to with that line-up are _ridiculously amazing._ But until then I'm really focused on trying to get more real players vs my computer into my scores -- I know that's sacrilege on a VI forum  

Thanks!


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## Paul Grymaud (Dec 13, 2017)

I usually work in a pro studio except for the pre prod.


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## Rennaissance_manta_ray (Dec 13, 2017)

Paul Grymaud said:


> I usually work in a pro studio except for the pre prod.


Hey Paul. I might be dumb... but is this a joke, or are you saying you are a remote musician who works in a pro studio? If so could you link to the studio, and some examples, and maybe we can PM about rates? 

Thanks!


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## storyteller (Dec 13, 2017)

If you are looking in the southeast area of USA, you will find most professional musicians abide by Nashville’s rate sheet for standard stuff. Obviously the more talented the player, the more you would have to pay. This does not include studio time or what they would charge to do this from their home studios (which many will do offbook).

Guide here: http://www.nashvillemusicians.org/sites/default/files/AFM%20RECORDING%20SCALE%20SUMMARY%20SHEET0917.pdf

A more comprehensive overview of the rates: http://www.nashvillemusicians.org/scales-forms-agreements


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## JJP (Dec 13, 2017)

storyteller said:


> If you are looking in the southeast area of USA, you will find most professional musicians abide by Nashville’s rate sheet for standard stuff.



Those rates are national, AFM (union) minimums for sound recordings only. The bottom half of the page is for limited pressing and demo recordings done locally. (Other locations like LA have similar limited pressing and demo agreements.) 

The rates don't apply to films, TV shows, etc. The rates on that sheet also have rules about overdubbing and have some residual obligations. Expect musicians to charge more if they don't get those union provisions for the work.


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## storyteller (Dec 13, 2017)

JJP said:


> Those rates are national, AFM (union) minimums for sound recordings only. The bottom half of the page is for limited pressing and demo recordings done locally. (Other locations like LA have similar limited pressing and demo agreements.)
> 
> The rates don't apply to films, TV shows, etc. The rates on that sheet also have rules about overdubbing and have some residual obligations. Expect musicians to charge more if they don't get those union provisions for the work.


That’s true. I was just sending a general rate sheet out since I didn’t see what it was exactly requested for. There’s also the TV Jingles stuff posted (http://www.nashvillemusicians.org/sites/default/files/TVJingle Agreement.pdf) and some of the other situations too (like music prep/orchestra http://www.nashvillemusicians.org/sites/default/files/SRLA%20Music%20Prep%20Rates%202014.pdf). But, you are correct. And the top musicians in the greater Nashville area almost certainly require higher fees since they are in constant demand unless they are feeling generous. But good catch on the type of work. Keeping me on my toes.


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## JJP (Dec 13, 2017)

storyteller said:


> But good catch on the type of work. Keeping me on my toes.



That's only because I deal with this stuff regularly. I'm typing this while on a break from negotiations with the big 3 US TV networks to set new rates for musicians on live TV shows.


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## Hannes_F (Dec 15, 2017)

@Rennaissance_manta_ray your concerns are very valid. I've sent you a PM.


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