# Reverb for dummies



## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

After reading carefully the thread about good algorithmic reverb suggestions by @John R Wilson, I am considering to buy PhoenixVerb for $10! How wrong a $10 choice could ever be? But this time it's not about the money, I just wanted first to clear some things in my mind.

1) All major DAWs include an algorithmic reverb plugin with several basic options.

2) Most music libraries include a convolution reverb in their Sampler. I.e. Play 6 has this "advanced convolution engine" offering 100s of real spaces! UVI suites advertise "Place your ensemble in Europe’s most famous concert halls, churches and cathedrals, with control of mix and dry/wet signals", Soundiron libraries always have this FX rack offering various reverb options, VSL has this amazing Vienna Synchron Stage natural ambiance in their newer libraries, even Garritan Aria Player includes an easy to use convolution reverb engine, and as you understand the examples are endless...

Question 1:
Are both (1) and (2) options "not so good"? Is PhoenixVerb or Valhalla Room or Seventh Heaven significantly better-sounding, with more options and easier to implement than reverbs that are included for free in DAWs and music libraries?"

Question 2:
Are algorithmic reverbs much more light on CPU usage? That's why so many people prefer them over the more-natural-sounding conv reverbs?

Question 3:
In the end, is it a good idea to apply a "final reverb touch" to the main mixer channel, so your song has this feeling that was created in the same place/room/space, or is it too dangerous that it will be "too much"? I have read both opinions.

Sorry about all these simple questions and thanks in advance for any help! I want to clarify that the problem here is not the $10, I just always wanted to have it clear in my mind if DAWs' and music libraries' included reverbs are better left untouched.


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## Vin (Apr 25, 2020)

I don't use PhoenixVerb, but it was coded by the same guy who was behind the high-end Lexicon units such as PCM96 and 960L which were used on countless scores and records...he knows his craft. You can't go wrong with it, especially at that price.



Geomir said:


> Question 1:
> Are both (1) and (2) options "not so good"? Is PhoenixVerb or Valhalla Room or Seventh Heaven significantly better-sounding, with more options and easier to implement than reverbs that are included for free in DAWs and music libraries?"



Dedicated reverb plugins are usually better as they have additional features and shaping possibilities. The also use many, many more calculations and other stuff under the hood. Better-sounding is often arguable with reverbs, as it's very subjective. Depends what you're after. (Hyper)Realism? Lexicon-style sweetening? Both have their place.



Geomir said:


> Question 2:
> Are algorithmic reverbs much more light on CPU usage? That's why so many people prefer them over the more-natural-sounding conv reverbs?



Some are, some aren't. There are algorithmic reverbs such as 2caudio B2 which is extremely CPU-heavy (or at least was when I tried it a while ago) and there are convolution reverbs that use barely any CPU power. On the other hand, there are algorithmic reverbs that use very little processing power such as Valhalla reverbs and some convolution reverbs that are much more CPU-heavy such as Altiverb.



Geomir said:


> Question 3:
> In the end, is it a good idea to apply a "final reverb touch" to the main mixer channel, so your song has this feeling that was created in the same place/room/space, or is it too dangerous that it will be "too much"? I have read both opinions.



The best thing to do is to experiment, but my go-to approach is to use a single instance of reverb on a send and then send everything to it (different amounts) - I suppose it's how most people set up reverb. I don't use VSL or Sample Modelling, but I do often have live players included - if those tracks are completely dry, early reflections should be applied as well. Even better if you can use a high-end tools for spatialization such as Ircam Spat.


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## Patryk Scelina (Apr 25, 2020)

I think Vin answered it all, but I just want to say Pheonix Verb is really great. It's hard to believe they actually sell it so low now. To my ears it's one of the best sounding reverbs and what I like most about it, that it's very easy to use. It doesn't have million of controllers, variables you need to tweak to get what you need. I really enjoy using it. And it also comes with tons of presets. So even if you don't feel like a sound engineer you can quickly find right sound on the list.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

Patryk Scelina said:


> I think Vin answered it all, but I just want to say Pheonix Verb is really great. It's hard to believe they actually sell it so low now. To my ears it's one of the best sounding reverbs and what I like most about it, that it's very easy to use. It doesn't have million of controllers, variables you need to tweak to get what you need. I really enjoy using it. And it also comes with tons of presets. So even if you don't feel like a sound engineer you can quickly find right sound on the list.


This is exactly the reply I was hoping to hear, word by word, you described what I need! I love presets, I am not a sound engineer (I am far from it), I don't like million detailed controllers and variables, I want exactly something that sounds very nice and it's easy to use, with lots of different spaces / rooms but at the same time easily accessible! You covered me 100% about PhoenixVerb!


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

Vin said:


> I don't use PhoenixVerb, but it was coded by the same guy who was behind the high-end Lexicon units such as PCM96 and 960L which were used on countless scores and records...he knows his craft. You can't go wrong with it, especially at that price.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your detailed reply! You left nothing for other people to say!  

I didn't know many of the things you mentioned! And of course I am going to experiment!


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## Patryk Scelina (Apr 25, 2020)

Great. I'm glad I could help


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## Vin (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Thank you for your detailed reply! You left nothing for other people to say!
> 
> I didn't know many of the things you mentioned! And of course I am going to experiment!



No problem - I know it can sound overwhelming, it certainly did to me when I was starting out  I probably tried every technique there is at some point. There's quite a bit misinformation and overcomplication on this subject but it really gets easier with time (as with everything).


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

And now I am shocked! WTF? I have used AudioDeluxe so many times in the past, but now I get this message, and I cannot proceed my order:

"Exponential Audio PhoenixVerb is not allowed for sale in the country selected. Please verify and correct the country or remove the product from your cart."

I live in Europe (Greece). I never had any problems with AudioDeluxe! Maybe it's iZotope behind, I don't think there is something wrong with AudioDeluxe. It's a pity (and a shame) if it's iZopote's policy or something. I am not trying to order a boxed product or something, it's just a download serial. I hope it is fixed soon (if ever)!

What about Valhalla Room and SeventhHeaven? They are similarly priced (I mean, excluding the sales)! Are they as good (or even better), easy to use, with many preset options, and light-weight as PhoenixVerb? I am interesting in natural sounding instruments, like classical ones, orchestral, acoustic, pianos, Celtic harps, Irish flutes, etc...


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## Vin (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> And now I am shocked! WTF? I have used AudioDeluxe so many times in the past, but now I get this message, and I cannot proceed my order:
> 
> "Exponential Audio PhoenixVerb is not allowed for sale in the country selected. Please verify and correct the country or remove the product from your cart."
> 
> I live in Europe (Greece). I never had any problems with AudioDeluxe! Maybe it's iZotope behind, I don't think there is something wrong with AudioDeluxe. It's a pity (and a shame) if it's iZopote's policy or something. I am not trying to order a boxed product or something, it's just a download serial. I hope it is fixed soon (if ever)!



I'm in Europe as well and don't get that message - I'd drop them an email.


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## JazzDude (Apr 25, 2020)

dont get confused by Dom's SHIRT, but i might help to understand Reverbs better, and keep in mind, we have VST3 plugins here, great for any Cubase user (btw the Reverence Impulse responses have 4 channel surround). The problem is, no one really insvest time top understand their DAW plugins.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

Vin said:


> I'm in Europe as well and don't get that message - I'd drop them an email.


Thanks for the help, but really you don't have to spend your time, I could send them an email asking about that!

EDIT: It could be a Greece-only problem.


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## Patryk Scelina (Apr 25, 2020)

JazzDude said:


> the Reverence Impulse responses have 4 channel surround).



Yup. That's really great plugin. Especially when you have some additional IR's. I love using Numerical Sound IR's with it.

I also find REVelation very useful, especially for creating small spaces. I know you can design any sound with it. I just found myself using it mostly for small room sounds. 

But still I can recommend enough PhoenixVerb.


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## mohsohsenshi (Apr 25, 2020)

Vin said:


> The best thing to do is to experiment, but my go-to approach is to use a single instance of reverb on a send and then send everything to it (different amounts) - I suppose it's how most people set up reverb. I don't use VSL or Sample Modelling, but I do often have live players included - if those tracks are completely dry, early reflections should be applied as well. Even better if you can use a high-end tools for spatialization such as Ircam Spat.



May I ask a question about ER and reverb tail.
As you said, we all learned that bus send trick to apply reverb on everything.

But I saw some mixing tutorials they usually separate the ER and tail. With dry samples, they set up reverb with only ER, then add another plugin with only the tail.

Is this how they make dry sample and wet libraries sound in the same space?

And I saw people from Spitfire add reverb to their sample even if there is already some nice baked in natural reverb in those libraries. Will you guys do the same things? Thanks!


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## dzilizzi (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> And now I am shocked! WTF? I have used AudioDeluxe so many times in the past, but now I get this message, and I cannot proceed my order:
> 
> "Exponential Audio PhoenixVerb is not allowed for sale in the country selected. Please verify and correct the country or remove the product from your cart."
> 
> ...


If you can't buy it from them, just wait and it will show back up again either at Plugin Boutique or one of the other discount places. I've found that once they put it out at that price, everyone eventually gets it.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> If you can't buy it from them, just wait and it will show back up again either at Plugin Boutique or one of the other discount places. I've found that once they put it out at that price, everyone eventually gets it.


Thanks for the advice as always! 

Then I will wait and keep my eyes open! Still the fact that I never had any problems with AudioDeluxe and that part of the message _"Exponential Audio PhoenixVerb is not allowed for sale in your country"_ make me think that it's some weird iZotope's policy, so nothing will change if I try to buy it i.e. from PluginBoutique...

Meanwhile, I was just reading that Studio One 4 native reverb plugin (Room Reverb) sounds great, is flexible, and can be very transparent or present depending on how you have it setup. It's also known to be very light on CPU resources, and great for creating realistic acoustic spaces for orchestral / acoustic instruments, as it can have very smooth tails.

All these nice opinions about my new DAW plus the fact that I am not a pro musician, made me decide that I will explore, learn and use S1's Room Reverb! Unless of course AudioDeluxe reply to my message that they contacted iZotope and the problem is resolved. Then I would happily spend $10 to have a 3rd party reverb that everyone says it's much more detailed, polished, with many preset options and very easy to use!


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 25, 2020)

If PayPal works for you in Greece, and you're willing to have some risk, you can many times find Nimbus and R4 for sale here or on KVR. I just sold my duplicate licenses of those (I'd purchased Music Production Suite 3 that also came with them) on this board to some great people for a fraction of the full retail price. While I'd rate Phoenixverb as higher quality, another good reverb with more experimental functions is on sale at pluginboutique: Audiority Xenoverb - for me in the US, it's $10. I don't know if Phoenix will come back to pluginboutique for $10, as I think it already was and then stopped there. Another underrated and not really expensive algo reverb, in addition to things on huge sale or anything from ValhallaDSP (can never go wrong with Valhalla, just more a matter of whether you like it most vs. others), is D16 Toraverb.

Question 1:
Are both (1) and (2) options "not so good"? Is PhoenixVerb or Valhalla Room or Seventh Heaven significantly better-sounding, with more options and easier to implement than reverbs that are included for free in DAWs and music libraries?"

Generally, yes. But for subtle and/or basic reverb effects, DAW plugins and included reverbs work just fine. Some that come with libraries are pretty good, and, if not just tacked on, are probably carefully selected/tuned to be complimentary to the library itself. Different reverbs have different controls built in, and have different design goals in terms of their sound. Maybe think of them more as "flavors". That said, a good reverb will wrap itself around the sound as if it belongs there and was there all along - then it comes down to whether you like that particular reverb's "flavor". I suggest taking the time over a week or two to download and use every single recommended reverb, not just on VI-Control, that you can find and hear the differences and try their different controls.


Question 2:
Are algorithmic reverbs much more light on CPU usage? That's why so many people prefer them over the more-natural-sounding conv reverbs?

Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. That said, I haven't used too many convolution reverbs. I also don't think convolution reverbs always sound more natural, let alone better. Depends on the music and the instruments. Hardly anyone will know the difference between concert halls, so, to me, why bother learning the idiosyncratic differences of their impact on the sound vs. creating the space you want from scratch? Caveat: I don't make orchestral music.


Question 3:
In the end, is it a good idea to apply a "final reverb touch" to the main mixer channel, so your song has this feeling that was created in the same place/room/space, or is it too dangerous that it will be "too much"? I have read both opinions.

I think it depends on the goals, the music, and how "wet" with reverb the instruments/busses already are by the time they get to the mixbus. Not doing orchestral, I generally don't want any reverb on my kick drum(s). If you're using a couple different dry orchestral libraries together, it seems like a good idea to use reverb to bring them perceptually into the same room and reverb should work really well for that.


EDIT: This guy isn't necessarily the best engineer in the world by any means, and the music he works with may not be what you or I like, but I personally found him to be a pretty good teacher. While I'd suggest diving in with reverb demo first and foremost, if you really want to learn more, there are some online video courses like this one: https://theproaudiofiles.com/reverb-course/ - only you can answer if it's worth spending money on learning vs. musical sounds or tools, like a reverb plugin. I'm sure there's some decent free videos out there instead, or some tailored to orchestral or hybrid. I posted that link as an example, is all.


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## Pincel (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> And now I am shocked! WTF? I have used AudioDeluxe so many times in the past, but now I get this message, and I cannot proceed my order:
> 
> "Exponential Audio PhoenixVerb is not allowed for sale in the country selected. Please verify and correct the country or remove the product from your cart."
> 
> ...



Yeah, I live in Portugal and received the same message when trying to buy PhoenixVerb from them... Bummer! Was pretty excited to get at such a low price too!


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## JazzDude (Apr 25, 2020)

use OPERA Browser with integrated VPN! In case of country specific problems:








How To Activate the Built-In VPN in the Opera Browser - GreenGeeks


We would all prefer a little more privacy when browsing the Internet. Opera has a free, built-in VPN that you can activate at any time.



www.greengeeks.com


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## mikrokosmiko (Apr 25, 2020)

I bought it with no problems from Spain some days ago, via Plugin Boutique


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## dzilizzi (Apr 25, 2020)

You can always try changing the country on your "ship to" address as none of this is shipped.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> If PayPal works for you in Greece, and you're willing to have some risk, you can many times find Nimbus and R4 for sale here or on KVR. I just sold my duplicate licenses of those (I'd purchased Music Production Suite 3 that also came with them) on this board to some great people for a fraction of the full retail price. While I'd rate Phoenixverb as higher quality, another good reverb with more experimental functions is on sale at pluginboutique: Audiority Xenoverb - for me in the US, it's $10. I don't know if Phoenix will come back to pluginboutique for $10, as I think it already was and then stopped there. Another underrated and not really expensive algo reverb, in addition to things on huge sale or anything from ValhallaDSP (can never go wrong with Valhalla, just more a matter of whether you like it most vs. others), is D16 Toraverb.
> 
> Question 1:
> Are both (1) and (2) options "not so good"? Is PhoenixVerb or Valhalla Room or Seventh Heaven significantly better-sounding, with more options and easier to implement than reverbs that are included for free in DAWs and music libraries?"
> ...


Wow thank you for all this amazing info, it's really appreciated, I will take you advice about what you wrote! And thanks also for the link.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> You can always try changing the country on your "ship to" address as none of this is shipped.


And go to prison for that?


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

Pincel said:


> Yeah, I live in Portugal and received the same message when trying to buy PhoenixVerb from them... Bummer! Was pretty excited to get at such a low price too!


This is very annoying, I would dare to say it's even close to insulting! Greece and Portugal are just 2 normal European countries, I really don't understand why they blocked us!


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## SupremeFist (Apr 25, 2020)

I had difficulties making reverbs sound how I wanted until I heard about the "Abbey Road Reverb Trick", and now I find them much easier to dial in:









The Abbey Road Reverb Trick - Westlake Pro


One of the techniques that make up the “Abbey Road Sound” is referred to, colloquially, as the “Abbey Road Reverb Trick.” Before we discuss the how-to, let’s talk about the results. If you listen to plate or chamber reverbs in their natural state, there’s a lot of information going on throughout...




westlakepro.com





Also, depending on the material, it can help to compress the reverb buss.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> And go to prison for that?


Your bill to address is correct.


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 25, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I had difficulties making reverbs sound how I wanted until I heard about the "Abbey Road Reverb Trick", and now I find them much easier to dial in:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One reason I love Nimbus and R4 is everything is built in into one place so the workflow is faster than adding separate plugins for EQ or compression. Or gating. Or saturation. There’s others that have those tools built in. Then again, Sonsig-A is more limited, but I love that, too, as it’s also very easy to use.

So... yes, feel free to EQ the signal before the reverb, or even after. Also, compress before or after. Or add saturation, etc.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Your bill to address is correct.


Now I can find it in JRRshop for $41.65. I suppose it's still a good price, right? Of course I didn't try to click "confirm payment" to see what will happen, and also I am going to wait if I get any reply from AudioDeluxe. 

But I would be curious to try what you told me about changing the country... I want to lead a risky thug life...


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Now I can find it in JRRshop for $41.65. I suppose it's still a good price, right? Of course I didn't try to click "confirm payment" to see what will happen, and also I am going to wait if I get any reply from AudioDeluxe.
> 
> But I would be curious to try what you told me about changing the country... I want to lead a risky thug life...



I personally would buy Nimbus or R4 secondhand before spending $42 on Phoenixverb. I sold Nimbus for $60 and R4 for $75. (Don't pay using Friends & Family option in PayPal).

For around $50 list price, I'd absolutely get something from Valhalla, instead. Lilke Valhalla Delay, which can also do some room reverb - I always try delay before adding reverb to a single instrument, but, again, I'm not doing orchestral, so maybe Room or Vintage may work better for you.

If you can get Phoenix for $10 and Xenoverb for $10, that'd likely carry you a long way toward reverb happiness. At least for awhile.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I personally would buy Nimbus or R4 secondhand before spending $42 on Phoenixverb. I sold Nimbus for $60 and R4 for $75. (Don't pay using Friends & Family option in PayPal).
> 
> For around $50 list price, I'd absolutely get something from Valhalla, instead. Lilke Valhalla Delay, which can also do some room reverb - I always try delay before adding reverb to a single instrument, but, again, I'm not doing orchestral, so maybe Room or Vintage may work better for you.
> 
> If you can get Phoenix for $10 and Xenoverb for $10, that'd likely carry you a long way toward reverb happiness. At least for awhile.


Thanks for the advice, maybe I will wait and check if I can find something second hand. So many options are overwhelming! So many similar products!


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Thanks for the advice, maybe I will wait and check if I can find something second hand. So many options are overwhelming! So many similar products!



Sure thing!

Alas, they're not similar - they all sound different. Which is why many people end up with 50 or more reverb plugins. Unless you're wealthy enough to buy so many (someday maybe, right?  ), look for tools that sounds great to you that you also get along with in terms of their usability. I did a LOT of trying things out before buying. Unfortunately, YT videos can't capture reverb tails as they get soft and even softer very well/realistically. At least to me.

But there are a lot of options, out there, that's for sure!

Look around, and figure out what you want from a reverb. Then look for the one or two that best fit that goal. Otherwise you might drive yourself crazy, and second-guess yourself, if you just buy them on recommendations (though $20 for those 2 reverbs I mentioned may be just worth doing if you can) of what other people like. For example, if you want a transparent algorithmic reverb, that'd rule out listening to Valhalla Vintage Verb or Seventh Heaven - though you might still try them anyway so you can hear the differences. And you might want one in the future.

Then, when you have another goal for a reverb in mind that your current one(s) don't fulfill, you'll also be more prepared, and maybe just demo newer ones at that point, and/or your second-favorites from before.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Now I can find it in JRRshop for $41.65. I suppose it's still a good price, right? Of course I didn't try to click "confirm payment" to see what will happen, and also I am going to wait if I get any reply from AudioDeluxe.
> 
> But I would be curious to try what you told me about changing the country... I want to lead a risky thug life...


I've done it once or twice. Though before VAT was a problem. So far, California doesn't charge tax on digital products. I'm sure it has something to do with the fact Silicon Valley is here.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Sure thing!
> 
> Alas, they're not similar - they all sound different. Which is why many people end up with 50 or more reverb plugins. Unless you're wealthy enough to buy so many (someday maybe, right?  ), look for tools that sounds great to you that you also get along with in terms of their usability. I did a LOT of trying things out before buying. Unfortunately, YT videos can't capture reverb tails as they get soft and even softer very well/realistically. At least to me.
> 
> ...


Everything you say is true. I should do it as much as I can! But I enjoy doing all these things you mentioned mainly with orchestral music libraries and not so much with reverbs! That's why I wanted something with many preset options and easy to use out of the box.

I am not going pro. I care about my music and my sounds, I take my music project seriously, but I am not working in the music industry. If you put me in a "blind test", I seriously doubt that I will recognize the difference between EW Spaces 2 and Valhalla Room! They can both add reverb to my sounds: big rooms, small rooms, huge fat rooms, halls, chambers, you name it. For me it's the same. I don't think my ears could ever tell me "This was convolution, didn't you get the impulse response of the stone walls and the wooden floor? And the second one was an algorithm, it sounded more mathematically perfect"!

Everything can be simple and complicated! I was looking for a reverb to make my mix sound more alive, lush and homogeneous. I am not too demanding or strict with details (my songs feature only sample libraries, and not real instruments or live vocals). I was so so so excited with PhoenixVerb in that amazing - almost for free! - price! Because of its price of course, because it's light-weight and can do a little bit of everything without any serious struggling!


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> I've done it once or twice. Though before VAT was a problem. So far, California doesn't charge tax on digital products. I'm sure it has something to do with the fact Silicon Valley is here.


Are you sending this message from some Californian prison?  

Seriously now, even if I can trick it, my main concern is if I will be able to use the plugin. In case it's not a "bug", maybe when I go to register my new serial in iZotope's site, they will reply me that I can't use this license in Greece...

But you have really tried something similar and it worked?


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## dzilizzi (Apr 25, 2020)

The thing is, you buy a serial number that you then register to Izotope's site. I don't think the SN is set to an area. So Izotope doesn't really care. I know I did it once without a problem. But I don't remember what I bought.


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## fretti (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Are you sending this message from some Californian prison?
> 
> Seriously now, even if I can trick it, my main concern is if I will be able to use the plugin. In case it's not a "bug", maybe when I go to register my new serial in iZotope's site, they will reply me that I can't use this license in Greece...
> 
> But you have really tried something similar and it worked?


iZotope lists greek resellers and distributors on their own site (if I understand correctly): looks to me more like a AudioDeluxe problem...









Retailer Information


Learn about the network of distributors and resellers iZotope works with.




www.izotope.com





Have you tried a different payment method?
Maybe you could also ask iZotope directly if there is a possibility to get a discount for their shop and buy it there...


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

fretti said:


> iZotope lists greek resellers and distributors on their own site (if I understand correctly): looks to me more like a AudioDeluxe problem...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your interest! Hey I have shopped from that store in Greece! I didn't know about iZotope back then!  

Your conclusion is very interesting and I have already contacted AudioDeluxe. Maybe I can also try iZotope support as well.


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## SupremeFist (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Everything can be simple and complicated! I was looking for a reverb to make my mix sound more alive, lush and homogeneous. I am not too demanding or strict with details (my songs feature only sample libraries, and not real instruments or live vocals).


Valhalla VintageVerb is what (usually) does that for me. Why not try the free demo?


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Valhalla VintageVerb is what (usually) does that for me. Why not try the free demo?


Thank you for the suggestion! Well I don't like the way they present it, as an old vintage 1970's, 1980's style. LOL I know it's not a serious argument, I would just be more excited if it was meant for modern orchestral symphonic music with natural organic acoustic instruments!

But you are right, they offer a free demo, and this seems to be the case for all Valhalla products. So I can try some of them for free, it would't hurt!


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## SupremeFist (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Thank you for the suggestion! Well I don't like the way they present it, as an old vintage 1970's, 1980's style. LOL I know it's not a serious argument, I would just be more excited if it was meant for modern orchestral symphonic music with natural organic acoustic instruments!
> 
> But you are right, they offer a free demo, and this seems to be the case for all Valhalla products. So I can try some of them for free, it would't hurt!


I know what you mean about the marketing, and I didn't go looking for a "vintage" reverb, but as it happens VVV can sound just like the verbs on the records I loved growing up, so it just sounds right to me. But also note that it has a "modern" setting that is much more transparent, so it's rather versatile.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

What about 7th Heaven? It seems also great for my simple needs:

- Affordable
- Very simple to use (includes several presets)
- Light-weight
- Can do a little bit of everything
- It has a very strong reputation especially for classical orchestral acoustic instruments

P.S. I wouldn't care if it's algorithmic or convolution as long as it has the above features and does the right job! Oh wait! It seems that they also offer a free demo! Maybe I can try all of them tomorrow! Right now my ears are ringing (from some virtual pipe organs sound testing - I love them but their sound can pierce your ears in the higher octaves)! I need some rest or I will get deaf! Still opinions of experienced users that have tried all of these products are always useful!


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 25, 2020)

Seventh Heaven is the opposite of “transparent”. I thought it was too thick. Others can’t get enough of it. Definitely try it.


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## jcrosby (Apr 25, 2020)

I'd


Geomir said:


> This is very annoying, I would dare to say it's even close to insulting! Greece and Portugal are just 2 normal European countries, I really don't understand why they blocked us!


I'd imagine it's just a site bug. As others have pointed out I'd email them before assuming anything.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Seventh Heaven is the opposite of “transparent”. I thought it was too thick. Others can’t get enough of it. Definitely try it.


What was that? I can't hear you! Some huge pipe organs are still echoing inside my ringing ears and my brain!  

OK seriously now, I have to try them tomorrow (after I get some good rest), to see if I can make any difference and have an opinion on my own!


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I'd
> 
> I'd imagine it's just a site bug. As others have pointed out I'd email them before assuming anything.


That's the first thing I did (mailing them including the exact "error" message)!


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## jcrosby (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> That's the first thing I did (mailing them including the exact "error" message)!


Izotope isn't running the sale directly, in that it's only selling at that price on Audio Deluxe.

FYI I just tried to login to Audio Deluxe and the site says my username and email aren't recognized so it's definitely an Audio Deluxe website issue. I'd hold tight and wait for a response, they probably updated something and aren't aware that the site isn't working for some people. If you can get it sorted out you'd be getting an excellent reverb for a ridiculous price, well worth waiting it out...


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Izotope isn't running the sale directly, in that it's only selling at that price on Audio Deluxe.
> 
> FYI I just tried to login to Audio Deluxe and the site says my username and email aren't recognized so it's definitely an Audio Deluxe website issue. I'd hold tight and wait for a response, they probably updated something and aren't aware that the site isn't working for some people. If you can get it sorted out you'd be getting an excellent reverb for a ridiculous price, well worth waiting it out...


I agree so much! The price is insanely low, so low that I wouldn't even bother to test the demo before buying, I would trust everyone here (including you) that explained to me that it's an excellent reverb suited for my needs! And that's why I am willing to wait much more!


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> Izotope isn't running the sale directly, in that it's only selling at that price on Audio Deluxe.


What I meant is that I already sent a message to AudioDeluxe, not iZotope...


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## jcrosby (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> What I meant is that I already sent a message to AudioDeluxe, not iZotope...


I understand that. I was responding to several people suggesting emailing Izotope and saying that that probably wouldn't accomplish much since Audio Deluxe has the sale exclusively.

Again, my A.D. username and email aren't working currently so it seems like there's a bug on Audio Deluxe's site, possibly even their checkout system. I don't think it's an issue of where you live, I think there's something broken and they're not aware yet, possibly even trying to fix it.

I'd hang in there for a response, maybe even email them one more time politely saying that you think there's a website issue not allowing you to checkout, and you'd like to be able to purchase it if the sale expires before they are able to respond, hopefully they can retroactively discount you if the sale expired before they respond. (Don't forget it's the weekend, they may have a delayed response time before getting back to you.) 

I'd try not to get too heated and keep it friendly as IME this can make all the difference...


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

jcrosby said:


> I understand that. I was responding to several people suggesting emailing Izotope and saying that that probably wouldn't accomplish much since Audio Deluxe has the sale exclusively.
> 
> Again, my A.D. username and email aren't working currently so it seems like there's a bug on Audio Deluxe's site, possibly even their checkout system. I don't think it's an issue of where you live, I think there's something broken and they're not aware yet, possibly even trying to fix it.
> 
> ...


I understand... Of course the weekend + all this situation everywhere do not help to get an ultra fast reply!


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 25, 2020)

It's been awhile since I tried Seventh Heaven, so I went ahead and did another demo....

I still won't buy it. Since I primarily work with synths, it's just too "ringy" and "metallic" compared to R4. On strings it sounds pretty decent, and it does a good job of attaching to any sound. I'll continue to demo it on different types of synths/sounds/strings/samples, but I'm skeptical. The Pro version might be able to work around it (R4 and Nimbus can get ringy and metallic, but it's easy to spin some dials on early reflections, etc.), or maybe the v2 IRs are that much better, but I have to say the regular version doesn't sell it for me. At all.

It's sort of like a really fine bottle of the wine varietal you like least. I can hear the quality, but it's not a quality I can appreciate. Maybe my reverb tastes will continue to develop and I'll be a convert some year.


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> It's been awhile since I tried Seventh Heaven, so I went ahead and did another demo....
> 
> I still won't buy it. Since I primarily work with synths, it's just too "ringy" and "metallic" compared to R4. On strings it sound pretty decent, and it does a good job of attaching to any sound. I'll continue to demo it on different types of synths/sounds/strings/samples, but I'm skeptical. The Pro version might be able to work around it (R4 and Nimbus can get ringy and metallic, but it's easy to spin some dials on early reflections, etc.), or maybe the v2 IRs are that much better, but I have to say the regular version doesn't sell it for me. At all.
> 
> It's sort of like a really fine bottle of the wine varietal you like least. I can hear the quality, but it's not a quality I can appreciate. Maybe my reverb tastes will continue to develop and I'll be a convert some year.


The pro version of 7th Heaven is too expensive for my needs. It seems that the lite version didn't work for you (even if you noticed that on strings it sounded more appropriate)! I will test it tomorrow I hope. I was just checking the included Room Reverb in Studio One, several different spaces, I am confused, all are so similar and so different at the same time. More "echo", less "echo", different "echo", extreme "echo". I need to practice for sure (after I rest my ears).

There is a very interesting Room included that is worth mentioning! It let me put my all my "players", including 1st violins, 2nd violins, violas, basses, choirs, Celtic harps, Medieval recorders, Irish flutes and epic orchestral percussion to... a small bathroom! LOL I don't know how they fit, I suppose they were suffocating! 

But I did not fail to notice that my final mix immediately got less wide and less lush, so it worked (both the plugin and my ears)!


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 25, 2020)

Unless you want the reverb to be more noticeable, try syncing the pre-delay with the tempo - either use a built in function to do that if the reverb has it, or adjust the pre-delay knob in ms to the tempo (use an online calculator if that makes it easier - I do). Try different amounts of pre-delay, as well. Things with faster transients, especially, often like to have some pre-delay so that those transients come through before the reverb starts in. I find EQ going into the reverb and pre-delay to be important in making sure a reverb doesn't swamp things (same as you can EQ on the way out of the reverb).


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## Geomir (Apr 25, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Unless you want the reverb to be more noticeable, try syncing the pre-delay with the tempo - either use a built in function to do that if the reverb has it, or adjust the pre-delay knob in ms to the tempo (use an online calculator if that makes it easier - I do). Try different amounts of pre-delay, as well. Things with faster transients, especially, often like to have some pre-delay so that those transients come through before the reverb starts in. I find EQ going into the reverb and pre-delay to be important in making sure a reverb doesn't swamp things (same as you can EQ on the way out of the reverb).


So if the tempo of my song is 120 bpm, how much the synced pre-delay must be in ms?

All these reverbs we were just discussing, do they have such a built in function?


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 25, 2020)

Geomir said:


> So if the tempo of my song is 120 bpm, how much the synced pre-delay must be in ms?
> 
> All these reverbs we were just discussing, do they have such a built in function?



There are online calculators. A Pre-delay of an eighth note at 120bpm would be 250ms I believe 

Not all reverbs have a predelay, but most should. Not all have an auto sync to tempo function, though. Not sure if Phoenix has one.


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## jcrosby (Apr 25, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> There are online calculators. A Pre-delay of an eighth note at 120bpm would be 250ms I believe
> 
> Not all reverbs have a predelay, but most should. Not all have an auto sync to tempo function, though. Not sure if Phoenix has one.


No need for an online calculator. All you do is divide 60 by your tempo, then divide again by a division or 2, 4, 8, etc.

120 BPM = 500, 250, 125, 62.5 ms, etc...
135 BMP = 444, 222, 111, 55.5 ms.


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## Geomir (Apr 26, 2020)

Great news...


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 26, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Great news...



Strange. Second-hand may be the best approach if you're interested in those reverbs (which you should be!). However, there's certainly many others out there.

Consider and try the following excellent reverbs, all of which are <$100 USD, at least if on sale.

* Xenoverb (not the same quality as, say, Nimbus, etc. but good and different - maybe too experimental?)
* Valhalla Room
* Valhalla Vintage Verb (esp Modern setting for orchestral vs. vintage)
* Liquidsonics Seventh Heaven (not pro)
* Acon Digital Verberate 2
* Relab Sonsig-A (esp. Rev A mode)


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## Geomir (Apr 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Strange. Second-hand may be the best approach if you're interested in those reverbs (which you should be!). However, there's certainly many others out there.
> 
> Consider and try the following excellent reverbs, all of which are <$100 USD, at least if on sale.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the nice list! Since I am not going pro with detailed reverb plugins, this is exactly my price range of interest!


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## Pincel (Apr 26, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Strange. Second-hand may be the best approach if you're interested in those reverbs (which you should be!). However, there's certainly many others out there.
> 
> Consider and try the following excellent reverbs, all of which are <$100 USD, at least if on sale.
> 
> ...



+1 for Xenoverb. Definitely not as transparent and more on the experimental side, and probably not the best for orchestral stuff, but I pulled the trigger on that one, and was pleasantly surprised! For $10, it should be a no-brainer. Lots and lots of options within that little guy! The shimmer algorithm gives Valhalla a run for it's money IMO.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 26, 2020)

Pincel said:


> +1 for Xenoverb. Definitely not as transparent and more on the experimental side, and probably not the best for orchestral stuff, but I pulled the trigger on that one, and was pleasantly surprised! For $10, it should be a no-brainer. Lots and lots of options within that little guy! The shimmer algorithm gives Valhalla a run for it's money IMO.


+2 on Xenoverb for $10. Although I use it more for FX, it does have standard reverb room presets. The shimmers are my favorites. I like using them on things like cymbal rolls. And it give Blackhole a run for the money, too.


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## Geomir (Apr 26, 2020)

I am still leaning towards PhoenixVerb (40 EUR in JRRShop and 50 EUR in PluginBoutique), I suppose they are allowed to sell it to Europe.

$10 is an amazing price for Xenoverb! I am tempted for sure!

But I can't get my mind away from PhonexVerb's 900 presets and everybody's comments that it's excellent all-rounder and ideal for classical orchestral acoustic natural instruments (99% of my case)!


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## JohnG (Apr 26, 2020)

FWIW, I use a much shorter pre-delay than anything I saw so far on this thread -- less than 20 ms typically.

Main feature for reverb is the ability to do a cut of both high and low before it hits the reverb. Otherwise you get mud (low end rumble) or ringing (high / mid). Many people will be able to advise you about what those exact settings should be, but if you start at 60-80 Hz low and anywhere from 2.5kHz to 6kHz for the low pass (the cut of the highs) that wouldn't be crazy.

It depends somewhat on the material, the instruments you're using, and the sound you want.

Good luck! Have fun!


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## Consona (Apr 26, 2020)

Geomir said:


> I am still leaning towards PhoenixVerb (40 EUR in JRRShop and 50 EUR in PluginBoutique), I suppose they are allowed to sell it to Europe.
> 
> $10 is an amazing price for Xenoverb! I am tempted for sure!
> 
> But I can't get my mind away from PhonexVerb's 900 presets and everybody's comments that it's excellent all-rounder and ideal for classical orchestral acoustic natural instruments (99% of my case)!


Here's PhoenixVerb for 10 bucks: https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/audio-plug-ins/exponential-audio-phoenixverb


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## Geomir (Apr 26, 2020)

Consona said:


> Here's PhoenixVerb for 10 bucks: https://www.audiodeluxe.com/products/audio-plug-ins/exponential-audio-phoenixverb


Thank you so much for the link! This is the best deal ever! Sadly it's not available for European counties (don't ask me what that means because I don't exactly know)! See my previous post (in the previous page of this thread) with the embedded image!


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## Consona (Apr 26, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Thank you so much for the link! This is the best deal ever! Sadly it's not available for European counties (don't ask me what that means because I don't exactly know)! See my previous post (in the previous page of this thread) with the embedded image!


Dafuq is that? Take revenge  and get Neutron 3 Elements for free at Plugin Boutique, the code is PBSCNE


@ManchesterMusic Hello Geoff, any idea what's up with that Audiodeluxe's european-money-phobia when it comes to Izotope stuff?  Cheers!


Geomir said:


> Great news...


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## Pincel (Apr 28, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Thank you so much for the link! This is the best deal ever! Sadly it's not available for European counties (don't ask me what that means because I don't exactly know)! See my previous post (in the previous page of this thread) with the embedded image!



For some reason, I tried it again today, and it worked! So if you're still interested, I suggest you try buying it again if you haven't!


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## Geomir (Apr 28, 2020)

Pincel said:


> For some reason, I tried it again today, and it worked! So if you're still interested, I suggest you try buying it again if you haven't!



Thank you for letting me now! Very kind of you that you remembered!

Believe it or not, I did it just 20 minutes before I read your message! Amazing timing isn't it? Following your advice and @dzilizzi 's advice (that I trust her all this time), I bought (in that order):

- XenoVerb (for $10)
- PhoenixVerb (for $10)

$20 for two light-weight and easy to use algo reverbs, that their combination (from the most natural rooms/halls to the most experimental places/spaces) can cover me for at least a few years. I don't need anything more deep/special/detailed/expensive for my music project. Bought them, installed them, activated them, everything worked perfectly fine.

For PhoenixVerb, following again the advice of @dzilizzi, I became a residence of Alaska for a while! But it was so cold there, so I am already back to Greece now!


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## Pincel (Apr 28, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Thank you for letting me now! Very kind of you that you remembered!
> 
> Believe it or not, I did it just 20 minutes before I read your message! Amazing timing isn't it? Following your advice and @dzilizzi 's advice (that I trust her all this time), I bought (in that order):
> 
> ...



Awesome! 

It's really funny, you were having the same problem with Audio Deluxe as I did, which ended up causing me to buy XenoVerb, and then we were both able to buy PhoenixVerb in the end! A happy ending indeed!


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## Geomir (Apr 28, 2020)

Pincel said:


> Awesome!
> 
> It's really funny, you were having the same problem with Audio Deluxe as I did, which ended up causing me to buy XenoVerb, and then we were both able to buy PhoenixVerb in the end! A happy ending indeed!


Hahaha true it's exactly what happened! Very happy double purchase with $20, we have so many sounds to explore! What makes this purchase even more happy is that the one completes the other (natural + experimental)!


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## dzilizzi (Apr 28, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Thank you for letting me now! Very kind of you that you remembered!
> 
> Believe it or not, I did it just 20 minutes before I read your message! Amazing timing isn't it? Following your advice and @dzilizzi 's advice (that I trust her all this time), I bought (in that order):
> 
> ...


You just think you have enough reverbs for a while. But the Reverb GAS will get you! (insert evil laugh here)

No, really, I love reverbs, so I own a lot of them. But really, you don't need much. I just can't figure out why people buy so many delays and saturation plugins. And they will say the same about reverbs, I'm sure.....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 28, 2020)

I haven't read this entire thread, but Geomir, the simple answer is for you to download some demos of reverb programs and compare them to each other and to stock ones in your DAW.

The differences aren't particularly subtle, but you do want to try different things through them to get a feel for what they can do.

Among the things I'd suggest listening to (in no particular order):

- Very small spaces. Bad reverbs sound like tin cans, good ones enhance the sound.

- Flute or other pure sounds. It's relatively hard to find a reverb that sticks to a flute.

- Buzzy sawtooth synth or blatty brass stuff to reveal the ugly sparklies or lack of them.

- Complex sources, a nebulous category that includes everything from strings to piano to whole mixes.

You want to listen to the early reflections, which define the space, and the tails just for sound quality (whether it's richness or clarity, or just smoothness). As I said, the differences are pretty easy to hear.

Also, play with the parameters to get a feel for how you can change the sound.


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## Geomir (Apr 28, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> You just think you have enough reverbs for a while. But the Reverb GAS will get you! (insert evil laugh here)
> 
> No, really, I love reverbs, so I own a lot of them. But really, you don't need much. I just can't figure out why people buy so many delays and saturation plugins. And they will say the same about reverbs, I'm sure.....


I would worry about my orchestral and choir libraries GAS! Luckily (or not) most of the times I cannot fulfill it because these toys can be very expensive!

I wouldn't worry so much about my reverb GAS. Actually more than one times I was thinking that my way of understanding would limit me to be satisfied with the following FREE (and very well respected - I mean, for a free one) reverb:






I just need 2 simplified things:

- Dry vs Wet signal
- Small (which means close and bright) vs Large (which means distant and "dark")

This can cover almost everything for me!

But seriously now I think that for $20 Xeno and Phoenix make my best value-for-money double-purchase ever!


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## AndyP (Apr 28, 2020)

Even if it costs a bit more, Seventh Heaven sounds like a very convincing and affordable reverb.
Corys walktrough is very convincing.





__





Plugin Spotlight - Seventh Heaven


Get it here: https://www.liquidsonics.com/software... Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/corypelizzari Albums: https://corypelizzari.bandcamp.com/




vi-control.net


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## Geomir (Apr 28, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I haven't read this entire thread, but Geomir, the simple answer is for you to download some demos of reverb programs and compare them to each other and to stock ones in your DAW.
> 
> The differences aren't particularly subtle, but you do want to try different things through them to get a feel for what they can do.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your advice Nick, I did it and was starting to get a little confused! So many demos, so many sounds, so many presets, all so similar and so different at the same time! It's true that I did not liked so much my DAW's reverb, but I believe it was 90% a psychological factor that if I pay for a dedicated reverb plugin, it has to do the job better! 

My music is mainly orchestral + folk instruments, no hybrid atmospheres, no pads or drones, 95% is organic sounds. Also no real singers, no real studio or guitars (or anything like that), everything is just sample libraries. So maybe I could be happy with my stock reverb (Studio One 4), because I am never going to need anything more than a "light touch".

I mainly use VLS Synchronized Special Editions which has a very nice IR reverb embedded, Eduardo Tarilonte's Medieval / Celtic libraries, EW Symphonic Orchestra and Choirs (also Requiem Light): so already my libraries are mostly wet. I wanted mainly a reverb to apply it to the whole song, so in the end it sounds like it's recorded in the same space / hall / room, and have a complete connected feeling (cohesive).

I am already experimenting with my 2 new small purchases, and I am more excited than my stock reverb. More choices, more presets, nice transparent sound (for PhoenixVerb), more dreamy ambient sound (for XenoVerb), I just feel more "confident" to use a dedicated plugin. I wouldn't give more than $50 before I exhaust the possibilities with my stock reverb, but I decided to buy them both for $20 and test them after! OK this sounds stupid, but I didn't want the sales to expire maybe (?) after 2 days!

The risk factor for $20 is not going to haunt me in my dreams!


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## Geomir (Apr 28, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Even if it costs a bit more, Seventh Heaven sounds like a very convincing and affordable reverb.
> Corys walktrough is very convincing.
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I know, thank you for the advice, it was in my wish list to buy until I managed to buy 2 tested and respected reverb plugins (that they perfectly complete each other) with just $20.

I would go for the non-pro edition of 7th Heaven, I suppose that's the one that you called affordable, the pro is more expensive and detailed than I would ever need! I love the interface so much, not only the simplicity, but also the nice modern look! Maybe it will be my first light-weight convolution reverb in the future!

Btw Cori's reviews are amazing! Whatever he touches, he makes it sound brilliant (from Amadeus Symphonic Orchestra up to his late review of True Strike)! And the his review of 7th Heaven is not an exception of course!


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