# The net value of NKS to humanity.



## thereus (Dec 11, 2019)

[Trigger warning: A controversial viewpoint is expressed in an exaggeratedly extreme manner below in order to stimulate online conversation.  ]

NKS has been a total, pointless waste of everybody’s time.

Discuss...

It doesn’t make auditioning instruments easier. I don’t need my keyboard to play only some notes or wrong notes to fit into a scale. I don’t want flashy blue lights everywhere. A lot of devs have had to spend money on compatibility for no good reason. It’s potentially the cause of NI struggling corporately. It’s just a totally daft idea, badly implemented.


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## davidson (Dec 11, 2019)

NKS compatibility can be the deciding factor for me with some purchases. The light guides are amazing for sample libraries with ranges and keyswitches, and scrolling through presets with sound previews using the hardware works brilliantly for some products - mainly synth based.

I do think the browser is generally terrible for kontakt libraries though and it can be hard work trying to find the articulation you want. I much prefer the developers route of having arts split into folders. Maybe it's because that's what we're all used to after all these years. NI really need to look into reworking the browser in general, seeing as how that's the main focus of NKS.

But yeah, on the whole I find NKS pretty damn good.


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## Daily Patcher (Dec 11, 2019)

This is controversial only because it’s badly framed. It’s ok to express a viewpoint that goes against the grain but I don’t see how making easily falsifiable generalizations leads to quality conversation.


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## Mornats (Dec 11, 2019)

I agree with Davidson and will add they the tweakable parameters that are mapped to the knobs makes it easier than fiddling with the software interface. For me, it keeps me focused at my music keyboard and not my PC keyboard when making music.

The light guide for instrument zones is an amazing time saver. I use the scale feature for learning new scales easily (although not everyone needs this of course).

The browser could be better but the sound previews save a lot of time for me, especially with non-traditional instruments.


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## Olfirf (Dec 11, 2019)

I concur. If I consider a new plugin system with massive workflow enhancement living up to the possibilities of what could be achieved with todays (actually even yesterdays) technology and the might of NI, NKS is nothing but a huge disappointment. Light guide? I want labeled articulation switches! Automation dials? Can’t work with automation in the key editor in Cubase, so, automation does not work as well as midi CC. No faders on a keyboard with that price? Seriously ... no working with instruments in VEpro instances? Seriously ...
I could go on and on ... what NI could have done is use their power position on the market to force developers of DAWs and plugins alike to adapt to an enhanced way of thinking virtual instruments. You could have involved touch screens. Basically, you would rarely have to open up any VST gui, if Someone would truely take care of an intelligent system.
Thinking NKI is great is only possible while lacking any imagination what actually would be possible ...


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## Olfirf (Dec 11, 2019)

I might add ... look at what midikinetics does for a composer in terms of workflow. Possibly, Also look at what migh come from NextMidi in a few days ... these are just single guys, startups without any influence on the market. Look at what they make possible with just the tools they are given! Imagine that spirit of invention with the possibilities a company like NI has.


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## Mornats (Dec 11, 2019)

I'm with you on the lack of faders.

I've got the mk I keyboard with the touchstrips for the modwheel and pitch bend and would love more faders or even to tell it that I want the pitch bend to act as another fader. It's not a centred wheel like the mk II and other keyboards so I don't know why it's not an option in KK.


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## funnybear (Dec 11, 2019)

I agree that out of the box, NI has really dropped the ball on the NKS ecosystem.

The main culprit is the Komplete Kontrol browser which is unusable if you have an extensive collection of libraries / plugins.

BUT, I have written my own Komplete Kontrol replacement tool which allows me to browse all my nearly 100k sounds from a Chrome browser based interface. Compared to Komplete Kontrol I get:

a single unified user / official library view
lightening fast startup / browsing performance (instantaneous startup and super fast filtering)
sound scratch boards (I audition and add / remove candidate sounds to a scratch list)
tons of additional filtering options (e.g. I can apply tag filters to multiple selected libraries etc.)
I can resize the Chrome browser to my liking on my 4k screen
AND ... one click opens all my selected sounds from my scratch pad automatically in Cubase, ready and loaded into individual instrument tracks with each sound loaded in their respective plugin
So now for me NKS is the ONLY way to work and I only buy libraries that support the standard unless the library is so unique / great that I will add the preview sounds to the Komplete Kontrol database myself with an automated script.


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## Light and Sound (Dec 11, 2019)

thereus said:


> [Trigger warning: A controversial viewpoint is expressed in an exaggeratedly extreme manner below in order to stimulate online conversation.  ]
> 
> NKS has been a total, pointless waste of everybody’s time.
> 
> ...



I had generally thought the same thing in that NKS surely isn't that handy, that was until I recently had support ticket from a blind composer who requires NKS to be able to properly use instruments as they can use NKS with readouts.

Since then I've been working with them to ensure it works properly for them, and future plans will ensure they can be used in such a way, or to allow similar alternatives if not.

Just food for thought.


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## jbuhler (Dec 11, 2019)

I like the lights, rarely use KK, and then mostly to program presets for lights to conform to my commonly used libraries. The idea is a good one, but KK is such a kludgy piece of software, as it takes the worst aspects of Kontakt and Maschine and combines them into a real monstrosity.


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## gpax (Dec 12, 2019)

Wow. Another seemingly entitled post arguing why something has no right to exist.

I jumped on Komplete Kontrol early, being severely visually impaired. I recognized its potential for my extant vision which depends on more distinct visual cues. In the early days, only a few developed for NKS. The more focused implementation of accessibility as part of NKS, on the tactile side of things, has been more evident in the last two years, my personal input to NI product leads part of that process.

There are aspects I don’t use as much, and things I have commented on as part of the Komplete Kontrol beta process. Komplete has become a bit more bloated in some respects, from what it initially was. But the various options are just that, with some here mentioning different aspects of the workflow they passionately use, while some features are of lesser benefit to others. On average, my projects are about one-third instances of Komplete when/where I need to visually access keyswitches through the tunnel vision I have.

As for the browser previews, these are only useful to me in so far as presets or tagged multis the developer has included are what I’m searching for. While more basic patches or sets of articulations are superfluous when browsing, they are available to load this way, nevertheless.

The chord and scale modes I infrequently use, but this goes far beyond the trick pony the OP describes. I discovered that with something like evos, the benefits of also automating the NKS chords and scales modes is a quite remarkable tool.

The mixer display on the dual MK2 screen has become indispensable to me, and I too wish for faders, though supplement the KK hardware in other ways. But the mixer is wedded to the supported hardware in my DAW, a separate consideration from NKS.

Not sure how the OP is assessing that developers have “had to” spend to support NKS comes from. It’s optional, and synonymous on the Kontakt side of things with developing player-compatible instruments. I also know a fair number of developers who opt not to develop for NKS at all.

I’ll end by saying that my Komplete keyboard and NKS are but one of several controllers I use. People speak as if it’s all or nothing around here when making their cases against a library, or whatever, while clearly others use what they use to greater or lesser benefits. NKS has made things more accessible to me, and worth all its ups and downs.


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## reutunes (Dec 13, 2019)

I know quite a few blind and partially sighted composers... and I think they would almost all agree that NKS is extremely useful to them with the lights, voice options and other accessibility functions. A quick read through THIS site will educate those who may not have these difficulties.


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## Sonokinetic BV (Dec 13, 2019)

All our libraries are NKS compatible so we are very supportive of the NKS framework 

At NAMM a couple of years ago, we had the opportunity to listen first hand to those with accessibility issues describe the world of music that had been opened up to them through NKS. The first thing we did on returning was rework all our NKS implementations. It is such a great opportunity to make things better for very little relative effort, and having done it once, it then becomes a matter of course to follow the same methods on future implementations.

Also, the use of NKS opens up the same level of control directly in to the DAW or from other keyboards as all the automation built in is available for all to use. It's win/win for everyone, whether they use Komplete Kontrol or not


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## Akarin (Dec 13, 2019)

You'll take the blue light guides of my KK61 from my cold dead hands!

NKS has been a massive game changer to my workflow. Especially on ensemble patches and percussion patches.

Different strokes, etc.


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## Sonokinetic BV (Dec 13, 2019)

one more thought - if your instruments make such heavy use of keyswitches as many of ours do, having the light guide is really great.
I thought I was not going to like the lights, thought it was a bit of a gimmick and not a pro users feature, but I really did a 180 on that and love love love them now, being able to see at a glance where all your keyswitches are!


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## jbuhler (Dec 13, 2019)

Sonokinetic BV said:


> one more thought - if your instruments make such heavy use of keyswitches as many of ours do, having the light guide is really great.
> I thought I was not going to like the lights, thought it was a bit of a gimmick and not a pro users feature, but I really did a 180 on that and love love love them now, being able to see at a glance where all your keyswitches are!


The fact that most of your libraries follow the same key layout made it easy to set up a Sonokinetic preset for the lights so I can use it outside of the KK plug-in and still have the guidelights for your libraries.


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## Mornats (Dec 13, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> The fact that most of your libraries follow the same key layout made it easy to set up a Sonokinetic preset for the lights so I can use it outside of the KK plug-in and still have the guidelights for your libraries.


Ooh, how do you make a preset to use the light guide outside of KK?


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## X-Bassist (Dec 13, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I can use it outside of the KK plug-in and still have the guidelights for your libraries


Yes, details? I don’t think the lightguide works outside kk.


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## GtrString (Dec 13, 2019)

Lol its just one feature


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## jbuhler (Dec 13, 2019)

X-Bassist said:


> Yes, details? I don’t think the lightguide works outside kk.


You have to go into kk and set up the keyboard with a preset. I manually map the lights identically to how Sonokinetic maps them in the the NKS implementation. In the case of SF preset I set the lowest octave as red since that’s where their keyswitches usually are. I don’t get the playable range on the lights though. I also map the the common CCs for SF libraries to the knobs. I also have a split keyboard set up with the lights indicating where the split occurs. All of these presets are available outside of the KK plugin from the KK keyboard.


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## Mornats (Dec 13, 2019)

That's pretty cool, I never thought of creating presets, thanks for sharing


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## Olfirf (Dec 13, 2019)

Well, I guess nothing can be said against making live easier for blind composers ... however, there still remains the question of how well or bad of a job NI have done for estimated 99% of their other customers. I suppose, some people must be finde with it. Probably, people using orchestral libraries are a very small part of its users. But compared to what would be possible, NKS is certainly very weak of a tool for people working with orchestral libraries.


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## thereus (Dec 13, 2019)

Making the life of of visually impaired users easier is a use-case for NKS of which I was not previously aware. If it does that, then that's seriously brilliant.


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## David Kudell (Dec 15, 2019)

I like the different color lights since it really helps locate the keyswitches. But I hate the fact that the lights don't work in Kontakt, and I have to use the Komplete Kontrol plug-in to get the lights. This is mind-boggling, since NI also makes Kontakt, it makes no sense why they can't just put the lights into Kontakt.


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## pinki (Dec 15, 2019)

I like it a lot. One feature not mentioned which is amazing is the Quick Load alternative. I hate Quick Load and the Save As in KK completely replaces it. I have every obscure kontakt instrument going back to 2001 finally organised and accessible.


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## davidson (Dec 15, 2019)

pinki said:


> I like it a lot. One feature not mentioned which is amazing is the Quick Load alternative. I hate Quick Load and the Save As in KK completely replaces it. I have every obscure kontakt instrument going back to 2001 finally organised and accessible.



Could you expand a little?


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## thereus (Dec 15, 2019)

David Kudell said:


> I like the different color lights since it really helps locate the keyswitches. But I hate the fact that the lights don't work in Kontakt, and I have to use the Komplete Kontrol plug-in to get the lights. This is mind-boggling, since NI also makes Kontakt, it makes no sense why they can't just put the lights into Kontakt.



This is one of my major objections to I. It makes it completely useless to me.


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## MA-Simon (Dec 15, 2019)

David Kudell said:


> I like the different color lights since it really helps locate the keyswitches. But I hate the fact that the lights don't work in Kontakt, and I have to use the Komplete Kontrol plug-in to get the lights. This is mind-boggling, since NI also makes Kontakt, it makes no sense why they can't just put the lights into Kontakt.


THIS!

I actually like the light guides to play different scales. But it only works in Komplete Kontrol.
WHY can I not use this 999€ keyboards features without?

Without Komplete Kontrol this thing is literally just 88 keys, no further function. So No-Kontrol.
(Also that annoying expression touch strip directly below the fucking modwheel. It drives me crazy. The number of times I accidentally lowered some instruments volume...)


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## davidson (Dec 15, 2019)

MA-Simon said:


> (Also that annoying expression touch strip directly below the fucking modwheel. It drives me crazy. The number of times I accidentally lowered some instruments volume...)



Agreed, ridiculous design choice! If you dont use it (who does?), just disable it https://support.native-instruments....61-touch-sensitive-smart-strip-disable-en-us-


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## pinki (Dec 15, 2019)

davidson said:


> Could you expand a little?


Just make a User Kontakt preset and Save As all your instruments


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## Reid Rosefelt (Dec 15, 2019)

Here's why you need to load KK for the light guides. KK offers a different feature set depending on which keyboard is connected to it. If you plug in an M32 it is one thing, if you have an A controller it is different. MK1 does one thing and MK11 does another. It's different for every size. And there will be a third generation and it will be different there too.

In my case, I thought the MKI was very useful, but my 88 key MKII is ten times more useful. I purchased an M32 for use as a travel keyboard and resold it a week later. The way KK was implemented in the M32 was of zero value to me.

Komplete Kontrol is a handshake between the sofware and the controller. That's what it is. If you think all that code could be added to Kontakt and then Kontakt would still work with every existing Kontakt library... good luck with that. KK is either separate from Kontakt or there is no KK.

And KK works with non-Kontakt instruments. Most of the time if I can see colored keys on my screen when I load an instrument up--if I load it up within KK, the colored keys work on my KK controller. I don't have to make a preset--they just do. When I loaded up Karoryfer Samples' Sforzando "Hadziha" within KK, the light guides worked immediately. If they don't work, you can save a user preset, as mentioned above, or better still, make your own templates.

Within KK you can create templates that work with any controller. If you're working with a small keyboard that doesn't have any knobs, you can still do things like audition sounds by using the arrow keys on your computer keyboard.

My very favorite feature in NKS is making my own templates. Not only can I set up the light guides the way I want, I can decide the way I want the knobs to be implemented.

One reason why I realize that many people feel that NKS isn't useful is that most developers make minimal use of what KK is capable of. They do 5% and call it NKS. Put four parameters on the knobs and call it a day.

On the other, I just got Sonokinetic's AMS bundle. The AMS instruments have a very unique microphone array. Different kinds of microphones can be moved in and out, left and right, and wider apart.





Without NKS the mics can be adjusted on a different page. Useful if you know what you want-- but with NKS, the mics are integrated with the instrument. You can play the microphone soundscape while you play the bells, chimes, bowls, etc. For me, this is transformative. Also, you can adjust each beat of the arps using the knobs, something I've never seen before. Sonokinetic is always trying to move the envelope forward in every way, so they show the potential of NKS. But if you don't happen to own a library that uses the full potential of NKS, I can understand why you might not think much of it.

When I read these kinds of posts I strongly suspect that many people have not studied the manual, have never gone on YouTube to learn about unexpected features, and haven't made their own explorations into how NKS can transform libraries like the AMS ones. Personally, I'm still learning new things every day.

The utility of NKS depends tremendously on what keyboard you own (because KK offers many more features with a MKII controller, and 88 keys makes the light guides more useful), what DAW you use (some DAWS offer more integration and increased features, like mixing), and most importantly, which libraries you use.

In terms of searching for patches, you can sort by company. So when I want to play Inspire 1, I spin the knob to Orchestra Tools, one second later I'm on Inspire 1. At that point I select whether I want strings, or whatever. I hear the patches as I look through them. If I want to search for "strings" in all four Orchestral Tools libraries I own, I can do that too. Of course, I have selected favorites so it goes even faster. One button push and I see only my Orchestral Tools favorites.

I also buy NKS templates for instruments like Omnisphere and Falcon, which for me are game-changing. You can get sound previews for not only the standard Omni presets--but for *third party libraries* by Plugin Guru, The Unfinished, Audiority and others. Which you can quickly sort through. The ironic thing is that the unofficial NKS implementations by *Freelance Soundlabs* are often superior to the official ones, probably because Jason at FSL loves NKS, and other companies just go through the motions.

I could go on for days telling you about all the ways I enjoy using NKS and how it is an essential part of my workflow. I believe there are dozens and dozens of things you may not know about, like its value to the visually impaired. Even more when you get into the nitty-gritty of what NKS can do with a specific instrument. Of course there are many things I would also like to see improved, and new features I would like to see, but it has gotten better over the years, and I feel like the NI forum is the best place to make suggestions for new features.

Maybe I'll just do a video someday, but just as a "musicians helping musicians" thing. To help people who use NKS, not to try to convince somebody who doesn't find it useful for their particular workflow.


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## Mornats (Dec 15, 2019)

I feel like you've doubled my appreciation of KK Mr. TheFrog


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## MA-Simon (Dec 15, 2019)

But the basic midi light guide for scales. (Which is independent of instruments) Does not work without KK either.


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## neblix (Dec 15, 2019)

NKS is good for getting music tech developers on the same page, which is a huge net positive value.

Please do not confuse the value/convenience of NKS with the value/convenience of the Komplete Kontrol plugin itself or the keyboards. The NKS standard can be expressed in different technical implementations if NI made the decision to. It already has a parallel implementation in the Maschine ecosystem, albeit nearly identical to KK, so naturally any faults are coupled. If they completely redesigned the plugin to an unrecognizable degree to fix all the faults being cited by various users in the thread, they would still simply be building off of the existing NKS coherence in plugins and libraries that are there right now without requiring developers to change anything, just presenting it differently to the users to better meet their needs. That's the power of a standard.

Having a standard implemented in products going forward means that plugins are all speaking a common language in how they can be organized and interfaced with. Whether or not you like the specific organization and interface Native Instruments has currently created is a different story, and imo somewhat irrelevant to the question of if NKS has net value.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 16, 2019)

thereus said:


> NKS has been a total, pointless waste of everybody’s time.



Not mine, I use it religiously.


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## redlester (Dec 22, 2019)

I don’t understand why people have a problem with opening the KK software instead of Kontakt, especially because once an instrument is loaded you can switch to Edit view and hey presto, you have the Kontakt (or Reaktor) interface as well as all the benefits of NKS.


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## gsilbers (Dec 23, 2019)

Same opinion about a waste and for those of us who used kore , it’s like re living that tech that eventually didn’t go anywhere. Same thing I think will happen w nks.
So NI was like, hey this kore thing didn’t eventually didn’t pan out to help sell hardware, what should we do? Let’s wait for everyone to forget about kore and launch more of the same w Some changes 

. 




After reading some posts about visually impaired musicians,... I guess that’s cool and hope it helps them.
But I wouldn’t be doing any bets that this tech will pan out and adopted beyond a few more hardware releases.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Dec 23, 2019)

My NKS instruments are loaded that way in my templates. They're all ready to go.
And with most DAWs you can set up track presets to load Komplete Kontrol with an instrument. In one click. And you can use tools like a Stream Deck, OSC, Metagrid, to make it even easier.

I don't see what the issues are in needing to load Komplete Kontrol in order to use it. 

I also can't use my Kontakt instruments unless I load Kontakt. 
And I can't begin sequencing until I start my DAW. 

Load KK if you see benefits. Or don't. But accept the fact that you have to load the software or it won't work. 

There are some very legitimate issues, like how Komplete Kontrol doesn't work right in VE Pro. And it won't load VST3s, so no Reason Rack. I believe there are issues with automation of effects, or used to be. NI has a ton of things they need to do, and I hope they will. But I could say that about all the tech I own. In the meantime, I get a lot out of using it the way it is today.


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## neblix (Dec 23, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> Same opinion about a waste and for those of us who used kore , it’s like re living that tech that eventually didn’t go anywhere. Same thing I think will happen w nks.
> So NI was like, hey this kore thing didn’t eventually didn’t pan out to help sell hardware, what should we do? Let’s wait for everyone to forget about kore and launch more of the same w Some changes



They did that. It's called Maschine, it was released 10 years ago and is now their flagship product and one of the most popular pieces of hardware on the music market.


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## gsilbers (Dec 23, 2019)

neblix said:


> They did that. It's called Maschine, it was released 10 years ago and is now their flagship product and one of the most popular pieces of hardware on the music market.



i mean , directly from kore. maschine is a whole different thing with sequencer and all.


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## neblix (Dec 23, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> i mean , directly from kore. maschine is a whole different thing with sequencer and all.



No, it's not. Maschine builds on the concept of Kore by adding a sequencer and such to it.

Komplete Kontrol is just Maschine with a keyboard instead of drum pads.

NKS is just a formalization of the protocol they designed for Maschine/KK (which is the successor to Kore).


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## gsilbers (Dec 23, 2019)

neblix said:


> No, it's not. Maschine builds on the concept of Kore by adding a sequencer and such to it.
> 
> Komplete Kontrol is just Maschine with a keyboard instead of drum pads.
> 
> NKS is just a formalization of the protocol they designed for Maschine/KK (which is the successor to Kore).



to me this





is as useless as this






and this is where i would bet will keep having a future the sounds selection part would work for hiphop guys since its a daw as well:


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## Fever Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> Here's why you need to load KK for the light guides. KK offers a different feature set depending on which keyboard is connected to it. If you plug in an M32 it is one thing, if you have an A controller it is different. MK1 does one thing and MK11 does another. It's different for every size. And there will be a third generation and it will be different there too.
> 
> In my case, I thought the MKI was very useful, but my 88 key MKII is ten times more useful. I purchased an M32 for use as a travel keyboard and resold it a week later. The way KK was implemented in the M32 was of zero value to me.
> 
> ...



Thank you for that detailed reply!

I am looking to upgrade to a better controller with weighted keys and ideally good integration with Cubase on PC. Been working with a Nektar LX 88+ the last e years, but never truly loved the feel of the keybed. 

I do have concerns working with the Kontrol software. But as always, it is probably a matter of spending time with it.

Thanks again though ::


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## Fever Phoenix (Sep 8, 2020)

..and sorry for reviving this thread! 😆

Will research another couple of weeks to get to a conclusion what to buy next.. 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️😆


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## thorwald (Sep 8, 2020)

Light and Sound said:


> I had generally thought the same thing in that NKS surely isn't that handy, that was until I recently had support ticket from a blind composer who requires NKS to be able to properly use instruments as they can use NKS with readouts.
> 
> Since then I've been working with them to ensure it works properly for them, and future plans will ensure they can be used in such a way, or to allow similar alternatives if not.
> 
> Just food for thought.



This is very nice to see, being blind myself.



Sonokinetic BV said:


> All our libraries are NKS compatible so we are very supportive of the NKS framework
> 
> At NAMM a couple of years ago, we had the opportunity to listen first hand to those with accessibility issues describe the world of music that had been opened up to them through NKS. The first thing we did on returning was rework all our NKS implementations. It is such a great opportunity to make things better for very little relative effort, and having done it once, it then becomes a matter of course to follow the same methods on future implementations.
> 
> Also, the use of NKS opens up the same level of control directly in to the DAW or from other keyboards as all the automation built in is available for all to use. It's win/win for everyone, whether they use Komplete Kontrol or not


And what NKS support it is! I know that this is a relatively old topic, but quite frankly all the innovative things you guys are doing, especially with libraries like Ibrido Cinematica are exemplary and should be a standard on how to create blind accessible interfaces.

I unfortunately don't own, nor use your libraries, which is hopefully going to change in the future, when my budget allows. Keep up the great work!


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## Reid Rosefelt (Sep 8, 2020)

Fever Phoenix said:


> ..and sorry for reviving this thread! 😆
> 
> Will research another couple of weeks to get to a conclusion what to buy next.. 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️😆


You'll figure it out. 

NKS is important to me, but I respect that it's not worth anything to many others. Almost everything I do with music centers around NKS. If an instrument gives me added features by being loaded into KK, it goes into all my templates within KK. For example, I have third-party NKS templates for Omnisphere, Keyscape, many UVI products, and a lot of stuff like ujam works out of the box. But EZBass offers no added functionality, so it gets loaded directly in my templates.

Whenever I need to use an instrument, I just bring it over from one of my Cubase (deactivated) templates.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 8, 2020)

thereus said:


> [Trigger warning: A controversial viewpoint is expressed in an exaggeratedly extreme manner below in order to stimulate online conversation.  ]
> 
> NKS has been a total, pointless waste of everybody’s time.
> 
> ...


I don't use NKS. I bought the S88 for it, realized just having a nice controller editor and a lot of assignable knobs was worth every penny.


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