# Slurs question



## erica-grace (Jun 23, 2019)

If I want the audio example below, my understanding is that the passage should be slurred like this: 






and not like this:






Is that correct?

Would you ever use the 2nd example for anything?

Thanks again! 

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/slur-mp3.20809/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## JT (Jun 23, 2019)

The 2nd example is correct. The first example makes you look like you don't know what you're doing.


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## JohnG (Jun 23, 2019)

Actually, for strings, it's better to just write "legato" and if you want to add a phrase mark, use a dotted slur over the line. In string parts, slurs may indicate bowing, which you don't really want to wade into unless you know what you are doing.

Truth is, they know what you mean if you do the second thing, so it will be fine too.


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## NoamL (Jun 23, 2019)

JT said:


> The 2nd example is correct. The first example makes you look like you don't know what you're doing.



this. If given the first example the musicians will play the second example and unfortunately decide that they don't respect the composer (more likely to ignore other instructions).

Based on the tempo and dynamic of this piece however they will most likely do 2 notes to a bow.

String players are very particular about slurs as it is one of the most important aspects of performance and the way they choose to bow a passage has a subtle and complicated relationship with dynamics, timing, phrasing etc.


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## erica-grace (Jun 23, 2019)

JT said:


> The first example makes you look like you don't know what you're doing.



So, I should do the first example then 

Ok, I guess my understanding was wrong. Thanks!

So, in ex2, which we now know is correct, if the line continues for another, say 16 bars, there is one slur throughout?

Also, i am looking at a jw score, and it looks like this:






How come there isn't one long slur from the first F?


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## JEPA (Jun 23, 2019)

the first example is a beginner fault... but it encompass the meaning of it. The first example could work only if there were two (2) notes binded by a slur. For more notes than two please use example number two. The second example is correct!


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## JEPA (Jun 23, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> So, I should do the first example then
> 
> Ok, I guess my understanding was wrong. Thanks!
> 
> ...


because the notes being both F (the same note) are separated by the measure line. Then the first slur tie explains that the F note continues to the next measure.


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## JohnG (Jun 23, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> How come there isn't one long slur from the first F?



It's not a slur, it's a tie. I know the marks look similar but, as @JEPA indicates, a tie between notes of the same pitch means you hold the same pitch for the full duration of all the notes tied together, whether within a bar or over a bar line.


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## JT (Jun 23, 2019)

erica-grace said:


> How come there isn't one long slur from the first F?


These are ties not slurs. If the notes are identical pitches then you use a tie. If the pitches are different, you use a slur.


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## JEPA (Jun 23, 2019)

JohnG said:


> It's not a slur, it's a tie. I know the marks look similar but, as @JEPA indicates, a tie between notes of the same pitch means you hold the same pitch for the full duration of all the notes tied together, whether within a bar or over a bar line.


oh sorry, english is not my native language and you are right, is a "TIE"


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## JohnG (Jun 23, 2019)

JEPA said:


> oh sorry, english is not my native language and you are right, is a "TIE"



I guessed that -- I thought your intention was pretty clear. Glad to have you on the forum.


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## bryla (Jun 23, 2019)

JT said:


> The slur doesn't cover everything because he wants a separate attack on the notes in measure 3.


No. It's because it is a compound time signature and there isn't a single value that last this long.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

NoamL said:


> this. If given the first example the musicians will play the second example and unfortunately decide that they don't respect the composer (more likely to ignore other instructions).
> 
> Based on the tempo and dynamic of this piece however they will most likely do 2 notes to a bow.
> 
> String players are very particular about slurs as it is one of the most important aspects of performance and the way they choose to bow a passage has a subtle and complicated relationship with dynamics, timing, phrasing etc.



This conversation is interesting... in the audio example, I thought I heard bow changes on each note (but maybe I am wrong?)... so wouldn't that mean example #1 was more correct? 

If you notate it as in example #2, I would expect the players to try to cover all 5 notes in one long bowing... which is impossible at that tempo (of course we don't know the dynamic because no dynamics were shown in the examples - but the audio sounds mf to me). So I would actually think that example #2 is the inferior one. But all of the more experienced folks say example #1 is more correct. 

Can someone help me understand, please?


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Based on the tempo and dynamic of this piece however they will most likely do 2 notes to a bow.



PS - This is how I would have written it. At this tempo, I would have wanted the half notes together in one bow stroke.

Ahhh, that's the point, isn't it? You don't slur across the bar line, so you would want to slur the first half note to the second in bar 1, and then the third to the fourth in bar 2. Would that work?


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

In fact, I am digging myself into a deeper hole because if you really wanted separation at each note, there is no need for slurs!

Forgive me while I figure this out and waste everyone else's time


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## NoamL (Jun 23, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> You don't slur across the bar line



??

You can definitely slur across the bar line.


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## NoamL (Jun 23, 2019)

A secret that y'all probably already know is that musicians ignore composer directions all the time. They will do the best to achieve what they think the composer wants but music notation is just the letter of the law not the spirit.

If given example #2 they would say to themselves, "Okay, we understand, you want this to be one phrase." Then they will bow one measure at a time (2 half notes to a bow) but enunciate the whole musical passage as if it's one phrase leading to the A. An instruction of "legato" yet with no slur marks, would lead to the same performed outcome because that's how string players would interpret it.

In fact two to a bow may well be the _default_ interpretation of half notes at this dynamic and tempo. That is not to say you should leave the part unmarked, just that players will naturally have some resistance to playing separate bows here. The only thing that would make them play one note to a bow is either if they know the composer/orchestrator is someone like Desplat or Williams and what's on the page is exactly what's intended, or if they hear the other elements in the music and feel that a bit more marked-out playing of each half note is idiomatic for what's going on in the music.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

NoamL said:


> ??
> 
> You can definitely slur across the bar line.



Ok, but at 120 tempo and mf dynamic?

Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. But I have always been weird.


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## JohnG (Jun 23, 2019)

@NoamL makes a lot of accurate points, including the bit about ignoring composers. They do it all day!

That's why I would just mark it legato and put a dotted slur over it as a phrase indicator. If you really know what you want them to do with the bowing, fine, but unless you're a string player (I'm a singer primarily) it's best to let the section leader or concert master tell the strings how to bow, if it's ambiguous.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

NoamL said:


> A secret that y'all probably already know is that musicians ignore composer directions all the time.



Yes, but do they do this because most composers are ignorant?

Because most musicians I know (who play in orchestras) spend a lot of time trying to understand the compose’s intent. 

If they ignore today, is it because we aren’t doing a good job? I dunno. 

Ps- of course string players should ignore my upbow / downbow unless I am a string player. But if I’m talking about phrasing... that is my intent as a composer. If they ignore me, I feel like a fool. Maybe I am weird but I’d love to know why my markings didn’t work.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

JohnG said:


> @NoamL makes a lot of accurate points, including the bit about ignoring composers. They do it all day!
> 
> That's why I would just mark it legato and put a dotted slur over it as a phrase indicator. If you really know what you want them to do with the bowing, fine, but unless you're a string player (I'm a singer primarily) it's best to let the section leader or concert master tell the strings how to bow, if it's ambiguous.



I am not talking about up and down bow, but bow changes and phrasing. Isn't this a common thing for composers to be concerned about? 

If not, then OK, so just mark legato over wide phrases - like woodwinds or brass then? (like the second example) I am good with that, but it's not what my orch teacher taught me... with the strings, I thought we should try to mark the phrasing more accurately - e.g. listen to the tempo and imagine how they would play it... to NoamL's point, I would have marked that phrase with the first half note slurred to the second half note in each bar.

But maybe I am overthinking it and the strings will just laugh at me. I'm pretty sure vi-control is laughing at me already hahaha!

PS - Seriously, just trying to learn something here... thanks


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

NoamL said:


> ??
> 
> You can definitely slur across the bar line.



Yes, but not at that tempo and dynamic... sigh...

EDIT: My bad. I should have been more specific... One thing I was taught when doing string bowings was to not go over the barline in phrases like this... where the tempo wasn't so fast (or the dynamic so strong). With mf strings at 120 bpm, I wouldn't slur across the barline. Sorry for confusing things. I am not a pro, just trying to learn.


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## paularthur (Jun 23, 2019)

I see this a lot.. .when dumping MIDI into Sibelius..


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

paularthur said:


> I see this a lot.. .when dumping MIDI into Sibelius..



What a helpful comment


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## paularthur (Jun 23, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> What a helpful comment


I didn't mean it in a negative way, sorry if it came off like that... It just keeps happening to me lol. and I can't seem to fix without deleting and starting again. Part of me thinks I should leave it be? but now I know that's probably not a great idea..


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

paularthur said:


> I didn't mean it in a negative way, sorry if it came off like that... It just keeps happening to me lol. and I can't seem to fix without deleting and starting again. Part of me thinks I should leave it be? but now I know that's probably not a great idea..



But what would you do instead? So you are saying the first example is crap and you would mark as the second?


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## paularthur (Jun 23, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> But what would you do instead? So you are saying the first example is crap and you would mark as the second?


I think it's one of those -I know my Professor's would not have liked it {I believe the phrase is readability?} but it works situations- because you're taught to do the second way but it* sounds the same. Also, I do markings when typing up sheet music that sometimes would get ignored or is implied by the notation.. Example: I would write Lyrical..


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 23, 2019)

Thanks Paul


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## paularthur (Jun 23, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Thanks Paul


I'm in the same boat as you though.
I remember one of my teachers told me he liked that my mockups had swells because he would turn in sheet music to be performed and he would see the players take out pencils and scratch in swells, so I've took that to mean it's better to add markings for clarity? So I'm always curious how other people do their midi to sheet music prep, tis' why I'm here.


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## JohnG (Jun 24, 2019)

douggibson said:


> There is a whole psychological/political aspect to orchestras too.



yes indeedy.


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## JohnG (Jun 24, 2019)

marclawsonmusic said:


> bow changes...



Never / almost never.

I almost never put bow changes in -- really just about zero, unless there's a passage (Rite of Spring) for which you want a series of downbows or upbows for musical reasons. Naturally, you put in other bowing directions harmonics, sul ponticello, tremolo and all that (provided you can get your $^&*%# notation programme working right).

But bow changes as such -- a waste of time unless you are a string player. And even then! Not worth arguing about unless someone else is paying for the orchestra.



marclawsonmusic said:


> ...and phrasing



Yes, definitely phrasing. 

But if you want to be really clear with the strings, it's even more "hands off" to indicate phrases with a dotted slur line, rather than a solid line. Using the dotted slur unambiguously conveys to the strings (and the section leaders) that it's a phrase mark, not a bowing direction.

For wind/brass sections, the dotted phrase line is also handy if you actually want the notes tongued, but still want to give a phrase indication.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jun 24, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Never / almost never.
> 
> I almost never put bow changes in -- really just about zero, unless there's a passage (Rite of Spring) for which you want a series of downbows or upbows for musical reasons. Naturally, you put in other bowing directions harmonics, sul ponticello, tremolo and all that (provided you can get your $^&*%# notation programme working right).
> 
> ...



Thank you, John! Super helpful!


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