# Libraries for pop/rock/singer-songwriter music



## StillLife (Jun 30, 2017)

Dear all,

A lot of the posts on this fine forum are from composers, I think: people who score for tv or movies, and from dance and/or ambient artists. I am curious about the musicians here that use (orchestral) sample libraries in their vocal driven pop/rock/singer-songwriter music. What libraries are suitable for those styles?

I myself am such a musician (not a professional one, but it is a BIG hobby for me), and I am constantly contemplating buying lovely libraries (especially those by Spitfire Audio). However, I have a hard time finding any demos with music in the styles I write in (Think Sufjan Stevens/Bright Eyes/Conor Oberest/Andrew Bird but also Roger Waters/Pink Floyd/Peter Hammill etc, or even some that combine the library with vocal melody. Maybe that means that these lovely libraries are no fit to 'my' music, but the GAS-devil on my shoulder refuses to accept that explanation. 

To give my 'What libraries are suitable..' question more frame, here are the libraries I am pondering about at the moment (all Spitfire):

Olafur Arnalds Evo + Toolkit (seems perfect for the silent, athmospheric songs. Or are other Evo's even better? And: what will they add to Albion V, that I already own. Do they offer enough content for the price?).
Vintage North 7 Keys (seems great, I love EP's, but I already have Sonniccouture's EP73 and Broken Wurli..)
Bernard Herrmann Toolkit (in the walkthrough I heard some combinations of instruments that seemed to come straight from a Sufjan-song).

Do any of you rockers/poppers/singer-songwriters have any experience with these libraries, or have any other libraries to recommend (please, _please_ little GAS-devil begs)?

All the best,
Martijn


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## DSmolken (Jun 30, 2017)

I do stuff for singers. A lot depends on what style they like, and what you already have covered by "real players with real instruments".

First get good strings, especially small sections. A lot of those classic recordings didn't use a full-sized orchestra, so small sections are the first thing that I'd put on my list. Flexible and dry. Solo strings would be next on the list, full-sized sections are nice to have but tbh they're optional for this kind of music.

And if you want to do songs with horns, pop horns are among the most difficult things to find. SampleModeling is a very good but expensive choice, orchestral horns don't really sound right, but Impact's newish Straight Ahead Jazz Horns are good for a lot less money, and Chris Hein Horns are also quite popular among producers of a big variety of pop.

I use the low brass in Metropolis Ark 1 quite a bit, as well as the strings, but that might not be a good fit for the style you're talking about. Woodwinds are occasionally nice to have, but not really that important - tbh I just use the ones from Garritan Personal Orchestra 5, and singers seem content.

And unless you work with live human drummers, you'll need drums and percussion. I really like the Drumdrops Vintage Folk Rock kit, which copies 1960s-70s recording techniques and sounds very different than modern drums, though of course that isn't a kit you can use in every song. Brushed drums are good to have, but you'll have to find something that has snare stirs which work in a way you like. For congas etc, the recent free D'Pinga plugins might well be good enough, and I'd definitely get the free darbuka-nut as well.

Piano, I like Pianoteq - I get a lot of mileage out of the Pleyel which is part of the historic collection, actually. But not everybody likes Pianoteq. I don't really have strong opinions about e-pianos.

For synths a lot of what I end up using is my own free samples, especially the stuff that's basically subtractive synths using looped sustain samples from instruments as oscillators - String Cyborgs etc. More indie-ish singers love those. Evo stuff is along similar lines, so that's a good direction to look into. Also, a decent virtual Mellotron - I just use the free Sforzatron.


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## Vastman (Jun 30, 2017)

Hello.... I'm you! I've collected a zillion orchestral libs and few meet your criteria... It's been a costly lesson! I don't see a lot in your list that make sense.

My top picks would be The Orchestra (amazing, rhythmic nirvana... Lots of current talk on this as it's just been released) and Heavyocity's NOVO (see Daniel James you tube live stream) Both are a songwriters dream come true.

Next on my list is Omnisphere 2...with EVERY Plug in Guru's add on O2 packages. Skippy's team had expanded O2's capabilities beyond all recognition and you'll be able to go places you've never imagined... Arps galore, the full gamet of guitars, Orchestrals, pads, rhythmic chaos, and... Oh, just go to his site and watch the 50 hours of demos /educating vids he posts... It's a mind blowing experience for YOU!

I have thousands of plug ins /hundreds of libraries... Those three will cost a chunk of change but you WON'T regret one nickel...

There are a number of others but they pale next to the above. I'm mobile at the moment but I'll post more later and add links...

It would be helpful to listen to your music... Either post a link here, add it to your sig, or PM me with a link.

Great question to reflect on before spending gobs on the Gas building up in your belly!


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## StillLife (Jun 30, 2017)

Thank you both! And nice to meet a fellow me! A lot of libraries to think about... and almost non of them Spitfire's. Seems like I'm eying the wrong girl..
I thought about the Orchestra, because of all the buzz that surrounds it, but I am not sure that I understand how it works. And isn't it too big an ensemble? Shouldn't I focus on smaller ones, like DSMolken suggested?

For drums I have EZdrummer 2, that absolutely suits my needs, so far. I also own Komplete Ult 10, so I don't know if Omnisphere would add much to that? 

Here are two songs of mine (forgive me the spelling mistake in the lyrics in the youtube-clip):


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## Vastman (Jun 30, 2017)

Thanks for posting songs! Very nice... can see strings in the first one...

I also have ultimate and use little but Kontakt, Damage, and a few others... No comparison to Omnisphere... widely recognized by most of the guru's as the most significant platform to ever surface... Truly urge you to spend some time on Skippie's website...watch some vid... you'll see what I mean. If I had to choose one thing, it would be Omnisphere... I'd give up all others for that and I have Loads of stuff...the strings are really quit nice, but the diversity of amazing stuff and the depth of the archetecture let you do things NO OTHER synth/sampler can do...

I own lots of spitfire... wonderful stuff. But, for a dummy like me, challenging to use like many on this forum can... Only you can decide what you're up for. The Orchestra is NOT a big ensemble, like Albion One (great, btw) Take a look at Don's vid. I own dozen's of orchestral's and NONE is easier and more fun to play... it really IS fun! Can't say that about the others! It's a songwriter's dream come true! And don't forget Heavy's Novo

If I were to select small strings, maybe LCO? Bernard Herman is definitely an option and on sale...it does give you a lot of interesting stuff, with spitfire's quality... but I decided against it and went for The Orchestra because of it's vamping/arping/easy to use gui. Always found Spitfires a bit challenging although I own more of their libraries than any other. Usually they have sales around BF/Xmas.

You just missed a great deal on Bravura Scoring Brass, by Impact Sound Works, a very flexible Brass library which has some orchestrator abilities, like The Orchestra... but no where near as polished or cool...if you can hold out till Black Friday, OT will likely have the mega sale on their ARK series again... I've fallen in love with their Capsule GUI, from a dummy songwriter it just makes sense... and the ARKs are amazing.

Still think Omnisphere, with all the O2 Guru soundsets and The Orchestra make the most sense... but that's the fun of it all!!! Lots of options and only you can decide!


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## BabyGiraffe (Jun 30, 2017)

Don't let the GAS take over you. If you already have decent pads and strings or electric piano, why would you need more of the same?
Better grab some solo instruments or instruments that you don't have.


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## Vastman (Jun 30, 2017)

Another consideration is your DAW/computer... I have a fairly powerful rig...but my laptop, which I like to use from time to time, struggles with the bigger libraries like Spitfire's whereas smaller footprints run flawlessly. In that regard, it looks like OT (Orchestral Tools), the big kahuna, may be coming out with a new laptop friendly orchestra... or at least the "teasing" thread seems to allude to this.


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## Saxer (Jun 30, 2017)

Nice voice!

I do a lot of additional stuff to song productions, mainly brass and strings, also woodwinds and drums/percussion from time to time as well. Sometimes added or replaced by real musicians but more and more of this tracks go into the endmix.

My experience: the bigger the orchestra the more useless it's for pop productions. Especially when dry(er) signals from the band comes in like punchy drums, bass, e-guitars the ear focus is spot on to these closer instruments. And then there's a big canyon behind the band and behind that canyon there's the orchestra. With it's big room around it misses all the transients and frequency range of closer instruments and in the mix the whole orchestra sounds like a muddy pad with too much verb on it. It isn't effective at all.

Smaller sections sound closer because they are mostly recorded closer. Dryer signals are easier to place in a band context. I purchased and tried a lot of libraries but at the end for all pop song stuff I use LA Scorings Strings, VSL (mostly Dimension Strings) and Samplemodeling, additional solo instruments by Cris Hein and... that's it.


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## DSmolken (Jun 30, 2017)

I agree - larger ensembles and distant mic positions would mostly be wasted on this kind of music.

Large ensembles don't necessarily sound bad if used as something like a background string bed, but they just sound less intimate, and also less like classic recordings in the genre. Smaller sections sound more believable, like you could realistically hire three violinists, but it probably wouldn't make sense to spend the money on a whole section. So, I find myself using smaller ensembles a lot.

Another thing that many orchestral libraries have that I don't find myself using a lot is a variety of mic positions - one close position is enough, really. Again, making things sound like they're in a big concert hall takes something away from the closeness and intimacy you usually want with this style of music. If you like something that has a lot of mics, by all means get it, but if it comes in a cut-down version with only close mics, that should be enough.

Having said that, the "film orchestra sound" is kind of becoming a popular thing in itself, and singers sometimes want a bit of it sprinkled into their tracks. One recently asked me for an arrangement which sounds like Caro Emerald's "I Belong To You", which gets kinda epic in the hook. So, if you got big orchestras laying around, you might want to use them sometimes. But I wouldn't buy one just to produce this kind of music.

It can also make sense to get some small and inexpensive quirky libraries - like the World Rabbit Poor Recorder series, which is recorders played by high school students who aren't terrible, but aren't all that great, either. Of course you don't "need" that, but if you want to indulge your GAS and buy some fun stuff...


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## StillLife (Jun 30, 2017)

Great advice here. Thank you. Great quirkyness in that recorder series! I own the little quirky Dustbundle from Spitfire/Sounddust, which has some really outstanding Dulctitones, for a very typical sound.

As for solo strings: which of these two would you prefer for this kind of music: the VirHarmonic Bohemian series, or Cinestrings Solo (I like both in the demo's/walkthroughs). 

Still thinking about The Orchestra, as it does seem to have the closeness and rawness that most of you seem to recommend. But the Bernard Herrmann lib (which is actually cheaper to me than The Orchestra, since I apply for Spitfire's educational discount) is also quite raw, it seems, and you can make it sound as close as you want, not?

And maybe I should stick to the EP's I already own (Soniccouture and Komplete) and scrap Spitfire's Vintage North from my wishlist (I can hardly find any user experiences on the net, anyway). 

Just to put in my own recommendation: The Sunbird Acoustic guitar. Great for strumming some pretty convincing acoustic guitar tracks, for all those like me who can only play the keys.


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## Ryan99 (Jun 30, 2017)

Vastman said:


> if you can hold out till Black Friday, OT will likely have the mega sale on their ARK series again... I've fallen in love with their Capsule GUI, from a dummy songwriter it just makes sense... and the ARKs are amazing.



Don't hold your breath on this one. OT has made 1 or 2 sales in the last years. After intro pricing, their products usually are not on sale.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 30, 2017)

If you listen to my pop rock music CD that I released called "Honestly" (you can listen to excerpts on my page or the CD page and I think it streams on Spotify) I can tell you what I used.
https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/jayasher1

The virtual instruments I kept: NeoSoul Keys Rhodes, Indiginus Wurl-e, Chocolate Audio Model 80 Electric Grand and Model 7 Grand, UVI B-5 organ, Omnisphere, Logic Pro' X's Alchemy, Scarbee Pre-Bass, Trillian Fretless bass, on 2 tracks Chocolate Audio Vintage Contemporary drums, Cinematic Studio Strings, Indiginus Solid State Strings, Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Ensembles (strings), Realivox Blue, Fluffy Audio Simple Flute, True Strike 1 timpani, Flying Hand Percussion Congas.

The instruments I used for arranging but replaced: acoustic and electric guitars from Indiginus and Pettinhouse, Chocolate Audio Vintage Contemporary drums except for 2 tracks.


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## pderbidge (Jun 30, 2017)

I think you should narrow down what type of sounds you are looking for that you don't already have. Are you looking for guitar libraries, more synths, sound design type stuff...etc...? I agree wholeheartedly with BabyGiraffe (I love quoting names like this  ) that most of the time we musicians need to learn how to harness the tools we already have. I'm still amazed at some of the great stuff that's created with some of the most basic tools that have been around a long time. You have a lot in Ultimate that is truly overlooked, in my opinion, by so many. I have about every library you can think of and recently I've been getting more and more out of Kontakts factory library (blew me away). 

As far as strings. I'm a big fan of LASS 2. It's expensive but it can do both Dry and Lush. Perhaps not as lush as Spitfire and others but there are a lot of people that use Spitfire and still layer with LASS because it's dryness really helps add bite and realism to the strings. Even just LASS First Chairs is a great starter library for your kind of music.

Also, of your choices, I've heard great things about Bohemian Violin. I also like the sound of Cinestrings but the technology behind Bohemian, where it is capable of almost being a virtual player is enticing to me. That means less time having to program every articulation, etc... Also Tina Guo is a great library for Cello. It's more of a one trick pony but in your genre the type of one trick pony that is used all the time.

I'm surprised that Output Sounds stuff hasn't been mentioned. I think ANY of their libraries would be quite useful for Pop, Rock, Alternative, Dance, ego fanatic lowrider bump and grunt dirty pirate (OK I made that last one up) music. Take a hard look at REV- it doesn't just do reverse sounds. You can use just about anything as a straight pad instrument.

Best of luck


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## Vastman (Jun 30, 2017)

Just out!!! http://vi-control.net/community/threads/berlin-orchestra-inspire-pre-order-started.63168/

Bohemian Violin and Cello are amazing... you'll sit down, start playing, and tears will flow... just a mindblowing AI creation...


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## StillLife (Jun 30, 2017)

Thanks for the link, Vastman, but I don't get that special feeling from 'inspire'. It misses an engine like The Orchestra's (I think) and from the demo video I found the sound lacking in comparison to the Bernard Hermann library. 
I _will_ certainly check out the Bohemians further!

Thank you for mentioning Rev by Output pderbridge. That one's definitely on my list now. And I also like the Kontakt factory library a lot. I use a fair bit of Komplete Ultimate, although I have 'replaced' some of the sounds with better ones (in my opinion, like Soniccouture). But you are right of course: there is still a LOT to discover in Ultimate.

I know GAS is a potential creativity killer. It's just that I promised myself a present (having finished a lot of work that had nothing to do with music), and I tend to keep my promises. Breaking one would make me feel bad about myself and that would be a creativity killer also. Ah, the conundrum! 

Very nice songs, Ashermusic. Thanks for sharing the VI-details.


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## Vastman (Jun 30, 2017)

Enjoy the ride! I agree TOs engine is amazing! 

It's nice to have to keep a promise like that...


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## StillLife (Jun 30, 2017)

I have an additional question for pderbridge (or anyone who uses REV by Output): how well does REV blend in with other libraries? Can it be made modest enough to leave room for the drums, guitars and vocals etc in a track? I like how it sounds very much, but I am wary of it being too much of a sound, if you know what I mean.


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## DSmolken (Jun 30, 2017)

As a bassist, let me ask: what do you use for basses? I mostly use my own free Meatbass samples, but recently came across the Dry Aged bass from Pulpo Audio which is also free, and as an acoustic bass guitar it might be very useful to you.


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## StillLife (Jun 30, 2017)

Thanks for the bass-idea, DsMolken! I will check that one out. I am using the Komplete Ultimate basses, and sometimes an EP-bass. I am still looking for something like the old Broomstick Brass VST.


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## pderbidge (Jun 30, 2017)

StillLife said:


> I have an additional question for pderbridge (or anyone who uses REV by Output): how well does REV blend in with other libraries? Can it be made modest enough to leave room for the drums, guitars and vocals etc in a track? I like how it sounds very much, but I am wary of it being too much of a sound, if you know what I mean.


The great thing about Rev is that there are sounds that can be subtle and sounds that are in your face and they can all be tweaked and blended in a way that is all your own, so yes, they can sit in the mix very well or not depending on what you want. Most of how well it fits in the mix just comes down to how good your mixing skills are. Unfortunately as composers we have to deal with not only trying to write songs and be original but many times we also have to be our own studio engineer and learn how to mix and user reverb, compression,etc etc.. but there is no reason you shouldn't be able to blend Rev into your compositions.


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## pderbidge (Jun 30, 2017)

pderbidge said:


> The great thing about Rev is that there are sounds that can be subtle and sounds that are in your face and they can all be tweaked and blended in a way that is all your own, so yes, they can sit in the mix very well or not depending on what you want. Most of how well it fits in the mix just comes down to how good your mixing skills are. Unfortunately as composers we have to deal with not only trying to write songs and be original but many times we also have to be our own studio engineer and learn how to mix and user reverb, compression,etc etc.. but there is no reason you shouldn't be able to blend Rev into your compositions.


Here is a song I helped write with a bit of Rev sprinkled around. I hate sharing this stuff because the guys convinced me to do a video with them on it and yet none of us are videographers plus I hate seeing myself in video.

The beginning and ending drone sound is Rev and then listen and see if you can catch all the other Rev elements. All the strings are LASS by the way. It's the only string library I've found that can fit into Any mix. For reference I own Albion One and Hollywood Strings Gold as well as what comes with Komplete Ultimate 11 (Symphony essentials and those older VSL strings)


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## zacnelson (Jun 30, 2017)

Great mix, excellent vocalist too


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## pderbidge (Jun 30, 2017)

zacnelson said:


> Great mix, excellent vocalist too


You think so? Thanks. Our studio buddy, the one on the bass and drums, had a crash on his mac so all I had to work with was an MP3 of the song and just ended up mixing in all the VI's myself for the vid which youtube compressed even more. The vocalist is me and I didn't even use auto tune


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## zacnelson (Jun 30, 2017)

Hello Martijn, here is a Soundcloud playlist of my songs which all utilise numerous sample libraries, including Spitfire, 8dio, Kontakt Factory Library, and others. You are most welcome to query me in greater depth regarding any of the specific songs and the sounds used in them. I have found Spitfire Chamber Strings (Sable) works really nicely with my arrangements. Of course I also like using SCS on orchestral compositions too.


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## zacnelson (Jun 30, 2017)

pderbidge said:


> You think so? Thanks. Our studio buddy, the one on the bass and drums, had a crash on his mac so all I had to work with was an MP3 of the song and just ended up mixing in all the VI's myself for the vid which youtube compressed even more. The vocalist is me and I didn't even use auto tune


It sounds really professional to me, very polished. A couple of little things in the arrangement were a little distracting, but that wasn't a mix-related issue. It was an excellent accomplishment all-round.


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## pderbidge (Jun 30, 2017)

zacnelson said:


> Hello Martijn, here is a Soundcloud playlist of my songs which all utilise numerous sample libraries, including Spitfire, 8dio, Kontakt Factory Library, and others. You are most welcome to query me in greater depth regarding any of the specific songs and the sounds used in them. I have found Spitfire Chamber Strings (Sable) works really nicely with my arrangements. Of course I also like using SCS on orchestral compositions too.




Well I'm not sharing anymore- that's just some great stuff. Nice songs, nice arrangements, nice mix. Nice vocals. I can't fault a thing.



zacnelson said:


> It sounds really professional to me, very polished. A couple of little things in the arrangement were a little distracting, but that wasn't a mix-related issue. It was an excellent accomplishment all-round.



I'd be curious to know what you thought was distracting. Could be useful for my future mixes. Feel free to PM me if it's too much to critique here


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## StillLife (Jul 1, 2017)

Those are very nice and professional productions Zac and pderbridge; to my ears at least! Helps me remembering that one could use any sound in a song, or almost no sound for that matter, if one has the producer skills to let those sounds become a song. 

But... I still am going to give myself a present (or maybe two - this thread is inspirational). I now have a new list, due to some youtubing after reading all the great advice here.

1. Rev by Output. Seems to be great fun and inspirational. Instruments, loops AND rises, all with a very special quality. Will really add to my sound pallette, I think.
2. Strings: The Orchestra and Spitfire's LCO. The first for its engine, which seems very very nice. Since I am not much of a programmer, I seek a library that can do a lot for you, while you remain in control, and I think that's what The Orchestra will deliver). LCO for putting the Spitfire quality on top. Love the demo's, and the beautiful articulations seem capable to put some icing on the cake. Also rather dry.
3. Bohemian Violin. Seems great. No programming, just playing. But not cheap.
(Well, that's actually four presents...)

Still pondering on: Bernard Hermann (it does sound lovely...) and the Olafur Arnalds Evo + toolkit. Maybe later in the year? Or maybe even LASS? But I really hope that my orchestral hunger will be stilled with the lib's I mentioned above.

A no go for me (I think) is the coming OT Inspire library. It sounds lovely of course (those timpani's!), but it doesn't seem to offer enough for musicians like me. I will not be trying to sketch a symphony, for the foreseeable future.


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## pderbidge (Jul 1, 2017)

StillLife said:


> Those are very nice and professional productions Zac and pderbridge; to my ears at least! Helps me remembering that one could use any sound in a song, or almost no sound for that matter, if one has the producer skills to let those sounds become a song.
> 
> But... I still am going to give myself a present (or maybe two - this thread is inspirational). I now have a new list, due to some youtubing after reading all the great advice here.
> 
> ...



Those all look like great choices. If you haven't done so already, you might also consider a subscription to a tutorial site like Groove 3. Youtube is great also but the video tutorials I took on Reaper and Kontakt taught me things I never would have learned from Youtube, as well as the Absynth and Massive tutorials. Knowing your DAW in and out is also key - not just knowing how to do certain things but literally learning how it routes, how it functions etc.. That way instead of always having to find a youtube video on how to do certain things, you know how to figure them out yourself because you know how your DAW thinks. Good luck. I think you have some real talent there. I liked your songs,especially the first one.


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## DSmolken (Jul 1, 2017)

StillLife said:


> A no go for me (I think) is the coming OT Inspire library. It sounds lovely of course (those timpani's!), but it doesn't seem to offer enough for musicians like me. I will not be trying to sketch a symphony, for the foreseeable future.


You're probably right - it seems great for what it's intended for but for pop, drier would be better. Though having a complete orchestra is important in case you decide you want an English horn somewhere, well, you always got the Kontakt factory content to fall back on, and it might well be enough. Better get really, really nice strings.


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## bigcat1969 (Jul 1, 2017)

OT. Is Groove 3 the best for learning music in general, theory and such as well things specific to digital music? What other suggestions are there?


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## StillLife (Jul 1, 2017)

Of course, pderbridge! Good advice. Education is always the the first path to making something better (says the teacher that I am). Went to the Groove 3 site and they have a sale right now. 89 dollars for a whole year. I will subscribe.
And thank you for your compliment: you're quite the talented guy yourself!

Dsmolken: thank you. I guess/hope LCO strings are really really nice...


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## pderbidge (Jul 1, 2017)

bigcat1969 said:


> OT. Is Groove 3 the best for learning music in general, theory and such as well things specific to digital music? What other suggestions are there?



I'm not so sure if that would be it's forte. It's a collection of tutorials by various people. Some are better than others. I found the site more suited to learning the nuts and bolts of the different tools I have - kontakt, reaper, massive, absynth, various drum tools etc... but there are some tutorials on music theory I believe howeverfor Music Theory related stuff I'm certain there are better resources than groove3- I think that's a worthy subject of it's own thread


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## jacobthestupendous (Jul 1, 2017)

Seems you've already made your decision, but I'd add another vote for Spitfire Chamber Strings. The sections are very small for an intimate sound, and for the money, you can't find a more comprehensive articulation collection. Extremely versatile. It's my go-to when I'm laying down string parts for singer-songwriters.


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## pderbidge (Jul 1, 2017)

I also agree that Chamber Strings is worth a look but I personally am weary of it in that it was recorded in the hall at Air Studios which means it is very wet. I own Albion Legacy and Albion One, which were also recorded there and have had a hard time finding a place for it in my songs whereas LASS is used all the time. I did find a use recently for Albion's High Strings though, which have a really nice sound.
I feel like the topic of strings in Modern Music (Pop/Rock/Alt/Dance etc...) kind of deserves it's own thread cause strings are sort of unique. It would be interesting to see what string libraries people have used to good result for these genres.

One side note for the OP- before you buy "The Orchestra" you should take a look at the new announcement by Orchestral Tools about their Berlin Orchestra "Inspire" - It looks like it could be "The Orchestra" killer and its intro price is cheaper as well.


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## jacobthestupendous (Jul 1, 2017)

pderbidge said:


> wet


The magic of close mics is that the wetness is not a problem.


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## Fleer (Jul 1, 2017)

bigcat1969 said:


> OT. Is Groove 3 the best for learning music in general, theory and such as well things specific to digital music? What other suggestions are there?


AskVideo (MacProVideo)


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## Vastman (Jul 1, 2017)

I very much disagree with the statement that Inspire could be "The Orchestra" killer... Very different animals; TO's engine is unique in the field, quite revolutionary, and a creative wonder. I got both but if I had to choose, I'd go with the creative option

Great selections so far!


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## bigcat1969 (Jul 1, 2017)

Forgive my ignorance, as someone who understands music and composition Vastman, will the music out of The Orchestra start sounding samey when lots of people use it to make music?


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## Vastman (Jul 1, 2017)

I dont think so, big feline...arps are infinantly variable, as in any guitar riff/pattern generator in orange tree guitarz...also, the melody or chords, single/double/triple/etc being played at any given moment are also up to you. The combinations are literally endless and the engine is very flexible and inspirational.

Same applies to Novo...sure you can just play the same basic pattern but I can't ever see myself doing that. Top it off with the fact that I see this as "spice" and secret sauce overlayed within a larger song composition and i don't see this as a problem. It's a very powerful tool, with an open ended roadmap!

I liken it to the gardens I created over the years... each unique and special, but designed and created with my favorite plants used in endless combinations, integrated and accented with other elements, resulting in magical spaces. On the other hand, I saw many cookie cutter gardens done by "landscrapers" which I sadly shook my head at...

The result is up to you...


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## pderbidge (Jul 1, 2017)

Vastman said:


> I very much disagree with the statement that Inspire could be "The Orchestra" killer... Very different animals; TO's engine is unique in the field, quite revolutionary, and a creative wonder. I got both but if I had to choose, I'd go with the creative option
> 
> Great selections so far!


Well "could be The Orchestra" killer is certainly speculation only. So you have both "The Orchestra" and "Inspire"? Sounds like you like both but prefer the creativity of the Orchestra? Is that correct? That's valuable information to know if you have both. I'm sure a lot of people would love to know the pros and cons of both.


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## zacnelson (Jul 1, 2017)

I think in the context of working on pop music, The Orchestra is a terrible choice. It's a great library (I have it) but much more suited to full orchestral compositions. I think the crucial element in adding strings to pop music is to have a lot of detail and intimacy in the sounds. And you will primarily be focussing on strings, not woodwinds and brass etc


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## Vastman (Jul 2, 2017)

Well I couldn't disagree with Zac more. Different strokes for different folks, I guess! Both Novo and TO are inspirational tools which can be used as an arp, rhythmic foundation or spice in song development...Maybe it's the way i create but once I come up with a set of words, finding a melodic and rhythmic structure usually falls to using guitar (z), drums and /or a Guru single or multi in Omnisphere (which has left nearly all of my other synths in a dustbin)

Now I've added both Novo and TO to the mix of tools for the above, which is exciting, fun & opens new doors of creativity!

Pedrbridge...Yes!!! I absolutely love the creativity inspired by The Orchestra! (couldn't resist) As to owning both TO and Inspire, all I can say is that Inspire is a pre order so can't really comment till after July 14th , which happens to be my Bday and this is looking to be a fun filled day!

However, I didn't think twice about ordering it! Fills in ARK gaps, super light and quick to use, and the OT sound I've grown to love...

My first serious library was Iceni, which just blew me away, power wise, the moment I heard/watched spitfire's Trailer... It's still among my favorite, 20+ Orchestrals later!

While I've been impressed with Trailer Brass/Strings for instant karma, both of OT's Arks really caused me to appreciate OT's raw power and sophisticated GUI. So Inspire, price, performance, footprint & sound wise, was an instant buy... Gives me the OT brass sound, from delicacy to bombastic, as well as the strings

Hindsight is kind of irrelevant and I chuckle a bit at my path ; I'm grateful that life circumstances have unfolded this year which makes it possible for me to finally begin devoting full time to my passion instead of a moment here and there. Integrating orchestral elements into songs is challenging and I'm amazed at those who actually orchestrate for a living.

I'm not a frivolous dude... But all these new libs are what I hoped for when I started this journey...and it will be them I learn to wield.


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## jjmmuir (Jul 2, 2017)

Vastman said:


> Hello.... I'm you! I've collected a zillion orchestral libs and few meet your criteria... It's been a costly lesson! I don't see a lot in your list that make sense.
> 
> My top picks would be The Orchestra (amazing, rhythmic nirvana... Lots of current talk on this as it's just been released) and Heavyocity's NOVO (see Daniel James you tube live stream) Both are a songwriters dream come true.
> 
> ...



Good advice here Vastman


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## Ashermusic (Jul 2, 2017)

One thing, Martijn. You are getting a lot of advice here. You might want to listen to the music of those giving you the advice and see what you think.


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## Vastman (Jul 2, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> One thing, Martijn. You are getting a lot of advice here. You might want to listen to the music of those giving you the advice and see what you think.


Wish more folks would post links to their music!

Imo, folks like Daniel James, who take the time to really delve into the best libraries, give me the best idea of a library's intrinsic value. His showing of Novo really convinced me of how I can integrate this amazing product into my aspirations going foreward


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## StillLife (Jul 2, 2017)

I agree: I like it a lot when people post their music. Adds a dimension to the words/advices. I still have to watch the Daniel James video on Novo. Or maybe I shouldn't, to protect my wallet.

Interesting discussion also about whether The Orchestra is too big, too orchestral to fit a pop song. As I understand, you can make it sound as big as you want (and big might come in handy sometimes). You can also mute instruments, can you? Make the arp thinner? And I do like it has horns and woodwinds. I am heavy into the Sufjan Stevens-sound... 
It won't be my only orchestral library (looking at LCO and Bohemian also), but I imagine its engine can sprout al lot of rhythmic ideas, that I can jam and write to.


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## zacnelson (Jul 2, 2017)

I think you should just get LCO for now, and possibly a synth-based product like Omnisphere 2 or Signal. (This is based on listening to your music and seeing the kinds of things you may want to achieve in a similar style)


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## rrichard63 (Jul 2, 2017)

zacnelson said:


> ... This is based on listening to your music and seeing the kinds of things you may want to achieve in a similar style ...



This is the right approach. It has already been pointed that the converse is also true: the OP should filter everyone's advice through whatever he can find of their productions.


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## Vastman (Jul 2, 2017)

After spending the weekend with The Orchestra I think you'd be in Hog Heaven... I've had an endless stream of song ideas flowing out of the riffs and rhythmic /melodic engine, unique to TO.

This is an extremely unique and inspirational songwriters tool... The best ever in the orchestral realm... By a LONG shot.

Omnisphere {grab all the guru's O2 libraries on sale} and TO... Your set for awhile. Don't think ANYTHING Output has to offer, including "Signal" holds even a dim candle to TO/Omnisphere (fwiw, I own the Output everything bundle)

If your passion for strings rings deep (like mine), Bohemian Violin & cello next (spend a week reading the 50 page VIC bohemian thread and you'll understand), watch what DJ does with Novo and then, if ur still in need... Consider others like LCO.

Just my fervent 2 cents after a decade of very expensive acquisition of stuff I'll rarely use, given the power and quality of these new tools...

Back to muckin with TO... About to combine Novo and Omnisphere (maybe a Guru/Airwave multi) on 3 tracks with my 3 controllers on a live jam... With myself (sick!)


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## Johann F. (Jul 2, 2017)

I had The Orchestra for a few days and meticulously tested it. If you don't own other ensemble libraries like Albion, Masse or Symphobia and need top quality instruments, look elsewhere. The Orchestra feels sterile compared to the competition. Orchestral Tools' Inspire - based on the Berlin series - kills it for $299.

The "engine" felt more like a gimmick than an actual creative tool for me. No amount of tweaking can free you from the repetitive nature of an arpeggiator. Sure it can create some nice textures and movements, but for $400 I might as well write the parts myself. And I wouldn't take more than a few minutes to do so. Maybe for someone who constantly needs to deliver dozens of cues, I can see the appeal of relying on a tool like this. But that's not my case and I most certainly don't need an arpeggiator to inspire me when I write. Of course, YMMV.


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## Johann F. (Jul 2, 2017)

Ok, I've just listened to Conor Oberst and Sufjan Stevens, pretty cool stuff. I can see where you are going for. If you own Komplete Ultimate, you are already covered with all the bread and butter sounds. Get Omnisphere, which has thousands of useful sounds for this sort of music. You can create ambiences, drones, synths, arps, fx, organic, the whole package.

Flexibility is key if you are going to spend hundreds on libraries you may later discover you didn't need in the first place. Light and Sounds Chamber Strings has the tone you are looking for. Honestly I don't think you need anything else to achieve decent results. Komplete Ultimate + O2 + chamber strings. I'd also consider grabbing Soundtoys bundle, if you want to get creative.


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## Ryan99 (Jul 2, 2017)

bigcat1969 said:


> OT. Is Groove 3 the best for learning music in general, theory and such as well things specific to digital music? What other suggestions are there?


I'm a subscriber of both Groove3 and Ask Audio Academy and they are both excellent and full of tutorials.


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## pderbidge (Jul 2, 2017)

zacnelson said:


> I think you should just get LCO for now, and possibly a synth-based product like Omnisphere 2 or Signal. (This is based on listening to your music and seeing the kinds of things you may want to achieve in a similar style)



I was thinking the same thing. I don't own Omnisphere yet but after spending as much as I have on small kontakt libraries of synth sounds I wish I had just bought Omnisphere for the same money. With all the samples included, even orchestral ones, I'd bet you would find it way more useful for your style.


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## StillLife (Jul 3, 2017)

I think it is really great that people take the effort to listen to my music (and to music in 'my' style) to tailor their advice to me. Thanks a lot for that! This thread has become everything I hoped it would evolve in, and then some.

Omnisphere 2... I know it gets a lot of love on the net, and I value your endorsements, but... I feel a little intimidated by this beast. I am wary to add another main engine (next to Komplete Kontrol/Kontakt and Cubase) to my arsenal. Does it really expand the possibilities that I already have? And if so, isn't it hard to work with? I am not a programmer: I hardly touch any of Kontakts knobs and buttons, for instance. I am foremost a writer and a musician. I have the feeling that going for REV or Signal will give me less options, but that might be good thing in my case. Any reason why you think Signal might be better suited to my music than REV, zacnelson?

The Orchestra... well I have to think further about this one. Vastman's enthousiasm is palpable, but I have come to see it's limitations. And it is another 400 euro's.

LCO is high upon the list still. Thanks to its great sound, and zacnelson's advice. But suddenly I find myself also contemplating OT Inspire, as a cost effective high quality base library. Seems to be a library in the realm of the old East West Silver Orchestra I once had and which I used a lot back then. 

The Bohemians... I know I will buy them someday. But not yet today.

I am sorry for my ongoing weighing of these libraries (get it over with! go on buy them! GAS-devil cries), but on the other hand: I hope you all keep fueling the arguments!


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## stixman (Jul 3, 2017)

Don't forget you get in Omnishere 2 Heart of Asia- Heart of Africa -Vocal Planet etc and more vocal and sample loops etc!


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## Ashermusic (Jul 3, 2017)

Interesting turn this thread took. When I think " pop/rock/singer-songwriter music", I don't think in terms of orchestral. I think guitars, keyboards, basses, drums and sure, strings and R & B brass but not orchestra.

Different kind of pop-rock/singer-songwriter than me I guess.


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## brentm (Jul 3, 2017)

StillLife said:


> I think it is really great that people take the effort to listen to my music (and to music in 'my' style) to tailor their advice to me. Thanks a lot for that! This thread has become everything I hoped it would evolve in, and then some.



I'm the same as you. Singer -songwriter who was looking for some new sounds. Had very basic gear to start. Had some money finally, bought a nice computer and Komplete Ultimate, Omnisphere, Trilian and Stylus. Also got the SoundToys bundle, a few things from Softube, Klanghelm; and from Scuffham a better amp sim the Guitar Rig, and some solo strings (Embertone and SubHarmonic). And the main U-he synths.

Just on the subject of strings, as they are expensive to buy...You have Session Strings Pro, which are designed for the very thing you are doing. You can add any affects you want to them, they have a built -in arp, and with KU you have a lot of effects (plus what's in your DAW). With a bundle like Sound Toys, what couldn't you do? Do something as simple as running a violin part through the granular effects in Guitar Rig. Add a little distortion and some Replika...whatever. With an upgrade to KU11 you'd get the Symphony Essentials. Why not do that and see how much you use/like them before investing in other, pricier strings or orchestra libraries? You just missed the upgrade sale, but there will be another on Black Friday.

As for Omnisphere...it is by far and away my most and easiest to use, synth. And the sound palette is way richer than that of any other synth I own, especially if you are going to be using or tweaking presets for the most part. And there a people like the Plugin Guru guy making even more great presets. I don't have anything from Output because with Omni, I don't feel I'm missing anything they have to offer I couldn't do myself.


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## brentm (Jul 3, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Interesting turn this thread took. When I think " pop/rock/singer-songwriter music", I don't think in terms of orchestral. I think guitars, keyboards, basses, drums and sure, strings and R & B brass but not orchestra.
> 
> Different kind of pop-rock/singer-songwriter than me I guess.



Yeah, I thought about that too. The OP's two tracks were pretty standard in terms of their arrangements. I liked the first song, nice Indie vibe. I don't know what he's looking to do he can't do with what he's got. If he's looking to branch out, Omni seems the place to start. Everything else would just seem to be more of the same, just maybe somewhat better quality with a price tag to go along with it.


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## pderbidge (Jul 3, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Interesting turn this thread took. When I think " pop/rock/singer-songwriter music", I don't think in terms of orchestral. I think guitars, keyboards, basses, drums and sure, strings and R & B brass but not orchestra.
> 
> Different kind of pop-rock/singer-songwriter than me I guess.



It's a different time. The term Rock has gotten progressively broader and broader. Nowadays it seems that any music that might feature a guitar sound (not even a real one) is considered rock 

String libraries can make sense, but with the understanding that they are mostly used in the background so you might be overspending for the use you'll get out of them and even the kontakt string libraries can yield decent results as background fill, although I'm very glad I have LASS for that. The only reason I've purchased the orchestral libraries I own (LASS, Hollywood Strings and Brass Gold, EWQLSO, Albion) was to actually one day do orchestral music and not for writing what I currently write.

I would say the OP's style is bit more on the Indie Pop/Rock side of things. But even Indie isn't really Indie anymore since it "used" to be considered a genre outside of the mainstream which really isn't the case anymore.

For strings, given the OP's genre/style of music, I would say that LCO sounds like a good choice and any solo string library (Fluffy Audio, Bohemian, LASS First Chairs, Embertone, etc...)

But still, Omnispere 2 would be high on my list. In fact,it is. The OP might be surprised at the background string sounds that could be pulled off with just this.


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## pderbidge (Jul 3, 2017)

StillLife said:


> I think it is really great that people take the effort to listen to my music (and to music in 'my' style) to tailor their advice to me. Thanks a lot for that! This thread has become everything I hoped it would evolve in, and then some.
> 
> Omnisphere 2... I know it gets a lot of love on the net, and I value your endorsements, but... I feel a little intimidated by this beast. I am wary to add another main engine (next to Komplete Kontrol/Kontakt and Cubase) to my arsenal. Does it really expand the possibilities that I already have? And if so, isn't it hard to work with? I am not a programmer: I hardly touch any of Kontakts knobs and buttons, for instance. I am foremost a writer and a musician. I have the feeling that going for REV or Signal will give me less options, but that might be good thing in my case. Any reason why you think Signal might be better suited to my music than REV, zacnelson?
> 
> ...



Don't fret too much over the learning curve of Omnisphere. Spectrasonics is awesome at providing free tutorials to get you going (https://www.spectrasonics.net/video/videos.php?VideoTypeID=3&InstrumentID=1)

I own Stylus RMX and their online tutorials were excellent and made an otherwise seemingly complicated product very usable. 

For Signal Vs Omnisphere. I have Signal and it's great but I would dare say that Omnisphere can pull off a lot of things that Signal can but not the other way around. Like I said before, there are a lot of libraries I should have waited on in lieu of Omnisphere. My problem is I have so much stuff now it's hard to justify the purchase - however the next time I want to spend $400 on a library it will be Omnisphere 2.


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## Saxer (Jul 3, 2017)

Johann F. said:


> I had The Orchestra for a few days and meticulously tested it. If you don't own other ensemble libraries like Albion, Masse or Symphobia and need top quality instruments, look elsewhere. The Orchestra feels sterile compared to the competition. Orchestral Tools' Inspire - based on the Berlin series - kills it for $299.
> 
> The "engine" felt more like a gimmick than an actual creative tool for me. No amount of tweaking can free you from the repetitive nature of an arpeggiator. Sure it can create some nice textures and movements, but for $400 I might as well write the parts myself. And I wouldn't take more than a few minutes to do so. Maybe for someone who constantly needs to deliver dozens of cues, I can see the appeal of relying on a tool like this. But that's not my case and I most certainly don't need an arpeggiator to inspire me when I write. Of course, YMMV.


I feel exactly the same after purchasing The Orchestra. I tried some hours with these backing pattens and creating some new but there's nothing I couldn't do better with a few tracks of existing ensemble libraries in the same amount of time but better sound. And the arps: any shopping mall entertainer keyboard has a more sophisticated comping software.


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## Ryan99 (Jul 3, 2017)

Many great suggestions here!


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## DSmolken (Jul 4, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Interesting turn this thread took. When I think " pop/rock/singer-songwriter music", I don't think in terms of orchestral. I think guitars, keyboards, basses, drums and sure, strings and R & B brass but not orchestra.


Last night I rehearsed with a small very singer-songwritery lineup - singer, two acoustic guitars, and congas/cajon. Me on bass. The singer wanted something played arco, so I did, and then she was all "that's nice but it would be even nicer with a whole orchestra".

Weeeell, I _suspect_ if we followed through with that, we'd find she meant strings, and probably just a quartet or small sections, not a whole orchestra. Maybe a clarinet. But people who sound less like 1970s Pentangle and more 2010s Dumplings, then all bets are off.

FWIW a track I produced for a singer I also played for live. Real guitar, cello and vocals, programmed bass (because I'd rather use my own samples of my own bass than play it for real on a recording), drums and small violin section.


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## StillLife (Jul 5, 2017)

Well, my list has changed again...

1. I am going to buy LCO. I think it can give a special flavour, it stands out and adds to what I already have. 
2. And... that's it... well: sort of. Omnisphere 2 is tempting, but I fear now it will distract me from what I have in KU10. It was a really good post that pointed me at Session Strings Pro, for instance. I had almost forgotten I had that very intersting plugin. May well be I will never need The Orchestra. SSP also works nicely with my NI Kontrol Keyboard. And there'll be lots more to 'discover' in Komplete I'm sure. I am going to dive in it again, like I just purchased it.
3. Subscription to groove3. Learning your gear is a great way to get inspiration.
4. I already did buy Glass Works on the last day of the soniccouture sale, which is - like LCO - a pretty unique library, an inspirational sound I do not have yet.

Contemplating: sound toys bundle. Question for anyone who has it: how much does it add to the effects you already have (daw, guitar rig 5, ezmix2 - that's what I have)?

As for being a singer/songwriter or not: I always had difficulty with genre boundaries. I get inspiration for songs from sounds, athmospheres, rhythms and/or from reading a poem or novel. So I am trying to expand my pallette. 
Looking forward to combine voice, ep and lco, for instance!


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## Fleer (Jul 5, 2017)

Soundtoys bundle gives you all sorts of creative sound mangling. I'm into singer-songwriter slash organic slash ambient and I love Soundtoys, as well as the FabFilter and Zynaptiq bundles. Add in those Slate and iZotope bundles and your bundle GAS is covered.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 5, 2017)

StillLife said:


> As for being a singer/songwriter or not: I always had difficulty with genre boundaries. I get inspiration for songs from sounds, athmospheres, rhythms and/or from reading a poem or novel. So I am trying to expand my pallette.



Which is all perfectly fine. I am not looking to narrow anyone's definition. But I think it is fair to say that when most people see "Pop/Rock-Singer-Songwriter" that is not where their mind goes. At least, it isn't where mine did. The term "singer-songwriter" was pretty much coined in the '70's to describe Carole King, James Taylor, Elton John, Joni Mitchell, Randy Newman,etc. And well, guys like me. 

But LCO is indeed a unique library and certainly has potential to inspire someone creatively.


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## StillLife (Jul 5, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Which is all perfectly fine. I am not looking to narrow anyone's definition. But I think it is fair to say that when most people see "Pop/Rock-Singer-Songwriter" that is not where their mind goes. At least, it isn't where mine did. The term "singer-songwriter" was pretty much coined in the '70's to describe Carole King, James Taylor, Elton John, Joni Mitchell, Randy Newman,etc. And well, guys like me.
> 
> But LCO is indeed a unique library and certainly has potential to inspire someone creatively.



You're right of course (although Randy Newman and 'orchestral' are not always far apart, I think? Love his music, btw). 
Just bought LCO!


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## Fleer (Jul 5, 2017)

Since you're Dutch, do look into FabFilter while you're at it.


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## jjmmuir (Jul 5, 2017)

StillLife said:


> You're right of course (although Randy Newman and 'orchestral' are not always far apart, I think? Love his music, btw).
> Just bought LCO!


Enjoy, sure it will be great. 
I am in a similar situation. Not wanting to do convincing mock-ups but love new sounds and combinations. I think as a 'pop/alt' songwriter in the vein of the artists you mention, it doesn't really matter how accurate the orchestral sounds are. Most of the 'pop/alt' tunes that use classical elements mix and mangle to create a 'sound'. Listening the other day to M. Ward's 'Poison Cup' - strings through an AM radio anyone? There's a tendency here to want the newest, most accurate libraries but from a pop/alt songwriting perspective it's more about what inspires and generates new ideas - which is why the orchestra has appealed to quite a few. 
In the end though it's all about the song, not the sounds.


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## ohernie (Jul 7, 2017)

Curious. In your opinions, where, if anywhere, would "quicky" libraries like Rhapsody, Virtuoso Ensembles and CineSymphony Lite fit into this equation?

OT - regarding The Orchestra and other quicky libraries: - after listening to so many demos I'm pretty much ostinato'd out.


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## StillLife (Jul 7, 2017)

I have to admit I don't know either of the libraries you mention, ohernie, so I can't tell you were they would fit. And also: I don't know if we're on the same page concerning the concept ''quicky libraries''. For me, I am not looking for libraries with which I can achieve a fast 'result', but rather for libraries that let me play without having to temper much with controls, midi-events etc, and that therefore inspire me. Much like a real instrument is 'quick': you pick it up/sit down to it, and of you go. Ironically, these kind of 'quicky libraries' take hours of my time.

Agree with you on the ostinato-overload in the latest demo's. I think it's also due to the tempo in these demo's. Maybe a real slow demo song made with The Orchestra, anyone?


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## Hat_Tricky (Jul 8, 2017)

I am debating either

A) upgrading from Kontakt 5 to Komplete or Kompletel Ultimate (at their next sale, since i just missed one...)
B) waiting for the next guitar center coupon (15%) to get Omnisphere 2.

Going to be doing a lot of pop/rock/edm stuff in the near future.

I currently have u-he's Diva, and whatever I get free with Kontakt 5


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## Morning Coffee (Jul 8, 2017)

I'm in the same boat as the OP.

I have no examples to show but I agree with the few previous suggestions that drier sounding libraries might work better in a song context, as they might be easier to put into a space that suits the song. I'm not sure about complete orchestras, but for more slow and intimate styled pop, rock and indie music, I think Macabre solo strings by Strezov sampling and perhaps the Spitfire Audio Artisan violin & cello would be good as well. For piano, imperfect samples Braunschweig upright piano sounds nice, and I've always liked the pianos from XLN Audio.

I purchased 8Dio Sordino strings recently and although they are not completely dry sounding, I think they could work in some pop rock mixes. Kirk Hunter has pop rock strings as well.


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## storyteller (Jul 8, 2017)

*On LCO:*
I recently used LCO (vivid longs and spiccato patches) in a pop/country track and was extremely pleased with the results. It is small enough to sit nicely in the mix, bright enough to cut through the mix, and I actually didn't even have to touch the EQ! It was perfect the way it was. For fun I even tried using some of the different mic positions and EQ them differently, but kept returning to the default analogue mix mic position without touching the EQ. It quickly became my first choice for strings in a pop/country track (when legato is not required).

*On Solo Strings:*
As others have shared, I agree completely that Bohemian is the way to go here for Violin at least. I'm anxiously looking forward to their Cello update as well.

*On Other Stuff:*
I'd recommend writing out your track template and figuring out which instruments are missing from your library. For example, if you need a mandolin, do you have one? What are you using for Drums? Acoustic? Electric? Etc...


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## Mojo Bone (Jul 9, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Which is all perfectly fine. I am not looking to narrow anyone's definition. But I think it is fair to say that when most people see "Pop/Rock-Singer-Songwriter" that is not where their mind goes. At least, it isn't where mine did. The term "singer-songwriter" was pretty much coined in the '70's to describe Carole King, James Taylor, Elton John, Joni Mitchell, Randy Newman,etc. And well, guys like me.




That's almost certainly an age thing; today, the term singer-songwriter is a catchall for a slew of subgenres, from Jon Mayer all the way to...Katy Perry. I think the artists you mentioned might better be described as self-contained rock acts, artists who specialize in captivating audiences with a single voice and a single instrument. Even so, their recordings were often sweetened, post-the Beatles. But you also had artists recording and touring with large ensembles, like Sinatra, Bette Midler, Barry Manilow, Elvis. Linda Ronstadt went out with the whole damn Nelson Riddle Orchestra at least once. There's a French horn and a children's choir on a Stones record, so I don't know if there's such a thing as too big, but it's certainly easier to start small.


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## germancomponist (Jul 9, 2017)

For strings I would suggest LCO and/or the new "The united strings of europe", (for now violins and cellos. An absolutely great sound for a little money).


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## Ashermusic (Jul 9, 2017)

Except that Sinatra, Elvis, and Linda Ronstadt didn't write songs


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## StevenMcDonald (Jul 9, 2017)

StillLife said:


> Well, my list has changed again...
> 
> 1. I am going to buy LCO. I think it can give a special flavour, it stands out and adds to what I already have.
> 2. And... that's it... well: sort of. Omnisphere 2 is tempting, but I fear now it will distract me from what I have in KU10. It was a really good post that pointed me at Session Strings Pro, for instance. I had almost forgotten I had that very intersting plugin. May well be I will never need The Orchestra. SSP also works nicely with my NI Kontrol Keyboard. And there'll be lots more to 'discover' in Komplete I'm sure. I am going to dive in it again, like I just purchased it.
> ...



I know you seem to have decided already, but I think you're missing out by skipping omnisphere! 

I'm a bit of an Omnisphere evangelist  It really can do everything, especially in the pop/rock world. I write in a ton of genres for TV shows. Hip Hop, Orchestral, Ambient, Electronic, Indie Rock... And I use Omnisphere in every track I write. No exaggeration. I'm not a synth junkie either. I'm usually picking presets and doing simple things like FX, filter, envelope, arp... 

It has absolutely left all my other synth libraries in the dust. It covers so much ground. Basic synths, drones, atmospheres, transitions, keyboards, even ethnic stuff and guitars! I would even venture to say that you could produce great instrumentals in tons of genres (excluding guitar intensive stuff) with just Omnisphere 2 and a good drum library like Battery or something.

Just my 2 cents! I don't know the whole picture though, so always take what I say with a grain of salt


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## Ashermusic (Jul 9, 2017)

+1 for Omnisphere. It is a Swiss Army knife.


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## zacnelson (Jul 9, 2017)

StevenMcDonald said:


> I know you seem to have decided already, but I think you're missing out by skipping omnisphere!
> 
> I'm a bit of an Omnisphere evangelist  It really can do everything, especially in the pop/rock world. I write in a ton of genres for TV shows. Hip Hop, Orchestral, Ambient, Electronic, Indie Rock... And I use Omnisphere in every track I write. No exaggeration. I'm not a synth junkie either. I'm usually picking presets and doing simple things like FX, filter, envelope, arp...
> 
> ...


I agree wholeheartedly. I'm definitely no synth junkie either, and not expert in tweaking or creating sounds. I just can't look beyond Omnisphere 2, it delivers the goods every time, in every possible genre. And it's so beautifully laid out and intuitive and easy to navigate, and very light on CPU


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## StillLife (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank you for your Omnisphere-endorsements! I also think that it will be a terrific program, and I am still contemplating it. What I am not so sure of is how much it will add to Komplete Ultimate 10, that I already own, and that I will probably update to KU12, some day in the future. Anyone one who has both AND uses both?


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## brentm (Jul 10, 2017)

StillLife said:


> Thank you for your Omnisphere-endorsements! I also think that it will be a terrific program, and I am still contemplating it. What I am not so sure of is how much it will add to Komplete Ultimate 10, that I already own, and that I will probably update to KU12, some day in the future. Anyone one who has both AND uses both?



I have and use both. I have KU11. I bought KU8 and Omni at the same time and have been using both now for five years. As you know, KU has many sample packs of natural/acoustic instruments. These are generally not found in Omni. There are some, but not many. So, for things acoustic/natural, I use Kontakt libraries. I use the effects in KU quite a bit: Guitar Rig, Replika, the compressors and reverbs etc., and am happy with them. Omni has great effects, but they can only be used in Omni.

KU has all the numerous synths and the whole world of Reaktor. I use some of these frequently and some never. But, and here's the thing, none of them can hold a candle to Omni. The synths in NI do what they do very well, and I'm glad I have them for those specific tasks (currently exploring Blocks...lots of cool stuff). But even all the synths in KU put together don't get as much use as I do out of Omni all by itself. Omni simply has a breadth and depth of existent and possible sounds unmatched by anything else out there. And it is so easy to make your own sounds with it or tweak existing ones. Omni literally changed the way I make music. I went from being a rather unimaginative drums/guitar/bass folk-rocker to, well, I don't know what to call it anymore. It's still singer-songwriter at it's core, but most of my songs now no longer have guitars in them. Omni makes it easy to set your imagination free. It's inspiring in the way other synths simply aren't. I know I'm sounding like a fanboy and all, and the impact Omni has had on my music may not be the case for you, but there's a reason why this instrument consistently gets five star ratings and is the desert island synth of choice for so many. And why instruments from other companies get tagged as "Omni-killers", and then fail to do so every time. I mean if you're happy to do traditionally arranged alt-folk singer-songwriter stuff, don't get it. But if you have an inkling there is a more adventurous soul inside you, this is the rocket ship you want.

I need all the Kontakt libraries in KU, and it's effects. But I would be able to get by without all my NI and U-he synths and just use Omni if I had to. It's that damn good. It does not overlap with KU, it adds a whole other(worldly) dimension.


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## kurtvanzo (Jul 10, 2017)

I had to give this question a serious ponder recently for a client, here ais a list of some new instruments that would work well for a pop writer:

Acoustic Guitar for putting down pop parts (many patterns/styles)
http://realitone.com/fingerpick/

Drums that can be easily tweaked and come with patterns that can be made more or less complex by part or over the entire kit (They sound great):
http://realitone.com/realidrums/

Bass that works well in a Pop mix/ easy to tweak/ many types :
http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/modobass/

Keys that do smooth and poppy:
https://www.spectrasonics.net/products/keyscape/

Electric Guitars that do solo and strummer:
http://www.ilyaefimov.com/products/electric-guitars.html

Or even cheaper option:
http://indiginus.com/renegade.html


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## StillLife (Jul 11, 2017)

Thank you both. I have Fingerpick and it's really great. Highly recommended. I tried out Realidrums, but it didn't click with me. I prefer Ezdrummer2. Others though have raved about Realidrums. Will check out the others, but think I will pass on Keyscape, because Soniccouture and NI have me covered for keysounds, I think.

Losing a lot of hours right now in watching video's about Omnisphere 2....


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## Fleer (Jul 11, 2017)

Have to agree on Omnisphere 2 (and Keyscape). Don't forget to check out PlugInGuru for patches. He's the one who made those wonderful Korg presets way back when and now runs an exquisite sound and preset bank (PlugInGuru.com) for Omnisphere. Also look into Luftrum and The Unfinished.


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## StillLife (Jul 15, 2017)

Most of you will probably think I am nuts, but I still haven't pulled the plug on Omnisphere2. Has something to do with me concentrating on the possibillities within Komplete Ultimate 10 (Massive, Reaktor, Absynth etc). If I could learn to really use those... 

Couple of more questions: 
1. @Vastman (or anybody else who bought Inspire): did you get to play with Inspire yet? 
2. I stumbled upon a couple of video's about eDNA Earth, by Spitfire. Seems like a good deal, especially with teacher discount. But nobody in this thread has mentioned it. Any thoughts about it?

LCO is gorgeous, by the way. Really glad I bought it. Made for me.


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## Fleer (Jul 15, 2017)

You may want to check the eDNA part of Albion One.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jul 15, 2017)

@StillLife I know that you are feeling a bit of overkill on Omnisphere, but let me just say this. 

I am basically a singer/songwriter too, and have written songs for many decades. I always avoided buying Omnisphere because I thought it cost too much and to be honest, I was put off by its New Agey name. I figured it would just be a lot of heavenly pads. (And it does have that.)

What I discovered is that it can be very down-to-earth, and has a lot of unusual acoustic instruments, often composed of two different kinds of sounds, that make me want to play for hours and compose new songs. It's easy to be distracted by the fact that it comes with 12,000 sounds. The reality is that I can go to one of my favorites, like "Glorious Guitars," and start playing at 8 pm and suddenly discover that it is 2 am. This is because I am playing a lot of my favorite songs on it, playing a lot of the songs I wrote years ago and finding new things in them, and coming up with new material on it. Just that one patch. I know I will return to it, just as I know I'll return to the four guitars in my apartment. 

The quality of the sound design in Omnisphere is A+++++++++. Why is that? Because the guy behind all the sounds helped created the sound design behind thousands of the most popular records ever made. He really tries to find things that are musical and of use to musicians. 

Now that doesn't mean that you will like my favorites--you may hate them!--and certainly not all 12,000 of the sounds that come with Omnisphere 2--of course not. But I believe that you will find things in there that will become your favorites--and you will return to them again and again. That's why Omnisphere has so many passionate supporters from people who a wide variety of music. No matter what you make, you can find something you love in Omnisphere. 

I'm a publicist. I think that Omnisphere is the most poorly marketed product in the world of electronic music. God knows, I've bought a lot of libraries that were sold to me as 9s or 10s and for me they were "eh." The marketing made me feel they would rock my world, but I never can find a use for them. But on a scale of 1 to 10, for me Omnisphere is a 1000. I'm very mad at myself that I didn't buy it years ago. I'm not joking at all.


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## StillLife (Jul 15, 2017)

Well, Tiger, thank you. You describe Omnisphere (I too dislike the name, and the color scheme) in a way that makes my mouth water. I am looking for playability in a VSTi, much rather than tweakability, or 'realism'. I want to play on my keys and have the sound make me play on. Looks like buying Omnisphere has become more likely again, for me.

Still, on another kind of library: reading some raving comments about the playability of Inspire, so now I'm even pondering that one. For your information: I like woodwinds and brass, and think they certainly have a place in today's 'singer/songwriter'-music (Sufjan Stevens' Illinois album, anyone?)


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## Fleer (Jul 15, 2017)

Great write up, TTF. And there's also the iPad app to steer Omnisphere, plus the bonus Creative patches you get when linking Keyscape.


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## ohernie (Jul 15, 2017)

TigerTheFrog said:


> @StillLife
> I'm a publicist. I think that Omnisphere is the most poorly marketed product in the world of electronic music ....



Omnisphere is a given. It doesn't need marketing, it needs a payment plan <g>.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jul 16, 2017)

ohernie said:


> Omnisphere is a given. It doesn't need marketing, it needs a payment plan <g>.


IMO There are tens of thousands of people out there who will happily spend two or three or four times the cost of Omnisphere 2 for an assortment of libraries they won't use as much. They will never ever buy Omnisphere 2, even though if they had bought it, it might have become their favorite VI. 

So no, no, no, no, no. This is 100% a marketing issue, as the product is as good as any product can get. People ALWAYS find the money for the things that their emotions have convinced them they need--whether it's an iPad or Cinematic Studio Strings.

The reason is that other companies use the aggressive online marketing techniques of 2017 and Spectrasonics is stuck on the strategies beyond 30-year-old ads in Keyboard Magazine. Stevie Wonder and Herbie Hancock use it--so you should too. It's a totally different world today. Today other companies use tools that prey deeply on our emotions. "It's 50% off. But you've got one day to make up your mind." 

I am in awe of Eric Persing's accomplishments, and he seems like a great guy, so far be it from me to tell him how to run his company. He must be very happy with the way it's doing. And every decision he's made I'm sure he's thought long and hard about, and makes them based on a more profound knowledge of the industry than I will ever have. But based on what I see, my impression is that he probably feels that his products don't need to be "sold"--they sell themselves. 

I have devoted my entire life to marketing (films) and I have not found that to be true. I have seen countless poor films that did well. I have seen many great films that didn't work or didn't reach the heights they deserved. I have never seen a film that was so successful that it couldn't have become more successful with better marketing. And when I work on a film I love that I know I could have done a better job, I can wake up in the middle of the night years later and still feel horrible. I could have done better. I failed. I never forgive myself for stuff like that. 

So yeah, it bothers me. I'm not losing sleep about how much money Persing is making, but I wish more people had this VI. I suspect that until the day I die I will read countless people posting about whether this is worth the money. They don't do that with Albion 1 because Spitfire creates videos that show you in great detail _exactly what it is_. They create implacable desire. And have thrice-yearly sales.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 16, 2017)

Eric is not the kind of guy to engage in that kind of hype. He has had a great career and made a lot of money simply by doing high quality work and based on my interactions with him, not a lot but some, I think he is quite content with that.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jul 16, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Eric is not the kind of guy to engage in that kind of hype. He has had a great career and made a lot of money simply by doing high quality work and based on my interactions with him, not a lot but some, I think he is quite content with that.


Yes, I have enormous respect for him as an artist and as a man. Believe me, a lot of the directors and actors I've worked with have not been all that big on promoting their work. 

"Hype" to me has always had the sound of promotion that turns you off because it is obvious and shrill. As opposed to strategy, which connects with the heart. The most hyped movie is not necessarily the most successful. 

The word "hype" represents what I tried not to do as a publicist and did not respect in others. The only thing I had to offer was my love for film and filmmakers. Not being an artist myself, that's what I could do. 

If the world had been different and I had been a music publicist in LA instead of a film publicist in NY, maybe I would have been able to promote you as a singer/songwriter. It would have been an honor. 

Anyway, this has gone way off-topic... we should get back to good singer/songwriter libraries.... the only connection is that I recently worked on a film with two beautiful songs by Sufjan Stevens.


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## StillLife (Jul 16, 2017)

Ttf, I wholeheartedly agree with you on the difference between hype and strategy. 
If I ever have a music publicist (would be great to have one) I hope it will be someone like you.

Back on topic: do you think Sufjan uses Omnisphere in his music?


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jul 16, 2017)

StillLife said:


> Ttf, I wholeheartedly agree with you on the difference between hype and strategy.
> If I ever have a music publicist (would be great to have one) I hope it will be someone like you.
> 
> Back on topic: do you think Sufjan uses Omnisphere in his music?


Ha! All the videos I've seen show him with acoustic instruments like banjo, guitar, and piano. I have read that he also plays drums, xylophone, oboe and english horn, among others, which he plays on his albums. My guess is that he gets other people to play on tour what he can't play himself. 

But why wouldn't he have Omnisphere 2? He can afford it.


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## StillLife (Jul 28, 2017)

Yesterday I was pleasantly suprised by the Spitfire's Pair-sale. I took the plunge and purchased their Simcock Felt and Leo Abrahams Enigma. Love them, and I think they fit the alt/pop style very nicely. Here's a short song I wrote during my initial play with them: all Felt+Enigma (and my voice), no editing or added effects (save for a bit of reverb on the voice). I did post it already on the commercial thread for the Spitfire sale, but since I think it makes a bit clearer the kind of music I try to write, I figured I could post it here as well.



And now I am contemplating Spitfire Chamber Strings in this sale, to pair with my LCO... main worry: are they dry enough for my kind of music (still having Saxer's comments on page 1 of this thread in mind).


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## DSmolken (Jul 28, 2017)

Whoa, yeah, that Enigma seems very alt-pop.


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## Fleer (Jul 28, 2017)

Enigma also works for Steven Wilson style composing. BTW, he's got a new album out in a few weeks.


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## Vastman (Jul 28, 2017)

I've said this so many times on Omnisphere threads... but will reiterate it here! I own at least a hundred libraries, dozens of the highly discussed synths, having spent a year's income on them over the years... they ALL are my dream come true, as I go way back before cassette players and worked with developers during the introduction of midi... also own Ultimate... and here is the punch line...

_*I wouldn't trade Omnisphere, armed with the full gamut of Plug in Guru libraries for ALL OF THEM!*_

Now that I've retired from a frenetic work schedule/family life/farming, I have way more time to spend delving thru all I own and begin working on my chops (another dream come true) but I doubt my statement above will ever change. It is a magnificent creation, crosses ALL genera's of music, and Skippy (PluginGuru) has taken it places NO other product has gone before. It is eminently playable, a powerhouse beyond belief and anything else pales in comparison.

LCO was a good choice so far, btw...

As you've expressed worry of too much crossover btw Ultimate and O2, all I can say is DON'T!!!


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## StillLife (Jul 29, 2017)

Vastman said:


> I've said this so many times on Omnisphere threads... but will reiterate it here! I own at least a hundred libraries, dozens of the highly discussed synths, having spent a year's income on them over the years... they ALL are my dream come true, as I go way back before cassette players and worked with developers during the introduction of midi... also own Ultimate... and here is the punch line...
> 
> _*I wouldn't trade Omnisphere, armed with the full gamut of Plug in Guru libraries for ALL OF THEM!*_
> 
> ...



Omnisphere is certainly still on my list, as it is clear that it has brought so much musical enjoyment to so many of you. It is just that this search for good alt/pop-libraries has started me to think about my process of creating something. It looks like Omni is best suited to an 'inductive' style of making music: you get a lot of wonderfull presets and through strolling through them (and manipulating them) you get inspired to make music. Lately, I found that I may be more of a deductive kind of writer: an idea and/or a mood comes up in my head (for instance by reading or remembering something), and from there on I want to grab a particular instrument with a particular sound: like a felt piano, LCO strings or Bohemian's Violin. These instruments then help me to stay in focus and shape the song. Lately, I felt I sometimes get lost and lose focus when I play around with libraries that have a ton of presets, like Absynth and Albion V. Enigma has a lot of presets too, but they are all from the same soundsource, so when I'm directed to it, my focus will remain - I think.
This is why I may buy Spitfire Chamber Strings before Omnisphere: because it gives me tons of possibillities around one particular kind of sound instead of tons of different sounds.
I don't know if this inductive/deductive thing makes any sense to you, and in practice these two 'modes' are not as clearly divided as I presented them, but becoming aware of the differences between the two helps me in my purchasing decisions (I hope...).
And I am not kidding myself: one day I will buy Omnisphere...


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## Fleer (Jul 29, 2017)

Well described, this inductive/deductive approach is quite the thing.


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## Vastman (Jul 29, 2017)

I think both are important! Often I start with stirring words on a subject {climate, renewables, issues) and an idea will pop into my brain (hook line, melodic hook, etc) or visa versa... A hook lines may come first! As a guitarist /crap keyboard player /mainly singer I'll skip to orange tree's guitars or Freddy 's piano or something simple and create a working bed... And begin adding what seems awesome

Other times I'll reach for a powerful rhythmic Plug in Guru multi and vamp in idea land...

It's all awesome... So enjoy your own personal journey. Just needed to convey the power of O2. But already said that. Have fun... I'm out!


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## ChazC (Jul 29, 2017)

Vastman said:


> Other times I'll reach for a powerful rhythmic Plug in Guru multi and vamp in idea land...



Thanks for the heads up on these preset libraries - Omni-X and the Sabrespheres sound great. Sigh... something else added to the never ending shopping list!


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## StillLife (Jul 31, 2017)

Keeping this thread alive...

Anyone here uses rev x-loops? Seems like a perfect and financially sane way to get to know rev/output and I really like the focused interface: only one nki, tons of tweakable presets, nks... Watched some video's and thought it may perfectly hit the sweetspot between inductive and deductive approaches to making music. But would love to hear some first hand-experiences from you.


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## Vastman (Jul 31, 2017)

I have all but the latest output stuff, having purchased their everything bundle awhile ago during all the hype. I rarely turn to any of their stuff anymore as I feel their samples lack the pristine character of other developers like Heavyocity and Spectrasonics. Also find their stuff hogs the song, similar to sample-logic...

I originally desired more rhythmic swirly stuff creating nice sound field's but just don't like the end result with these products.

That said, others seem to love um.


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## StillLife (Jul 31, 2017)

Vastman said:


> I have all but the latest output stuff, having purchased their everything bundle awhile ago during all the hype. I rarely turn to any of their stuff anymore as I feel their samples lack the pristine character of other developers like Heavyocity and Spectrasonics. Also find their stuff hogs the song, similar to sample-logic...
> 
> I originally desired more rhythmic swirly stuff creating nice sound field's but just don't like the end result with these products.
> 
> That said, others seem to love um.



Thank you Vastman, I am not looking for song-hoggers, definitely not. And yes, I guess as with many other libraries there are love stories and not-so-much-love stories. You went in big during the hype, Vastman! Hope you still will find any use for them in the future. Sometimes these libraries of yonder suprise us when we dust them off, don't they?
I think I will buy Rev X-loops (with my edu discount it's about 60 euro) and download Signal Free, to dip my toe in Output's waters.


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