# In praise of scoreclub



## ed buller (May 7, 2020)

Morning...for those out there hungry to learn Alain is constantly adding new courses to Scoreclub. It really is such a worthwhile program . He teaches so well and the information on his website is vital.






Best

ed


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## bryla (May 7, 2020)

I’ll second that! Alain’s courses are very well structured and can take you from 0 to 100 (that is if you do the work of course).

I tried to describe it in this thread how his Orchestrating The Line approach worked for me: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/small-heroic-piece.92823/


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## jonathanparham (May 7, 2020)

I have taken seven of those courses. Wonderful stuff that has helped me review and build on what I learned in school so many years ago.

I asked Alain about his new course, which I guess Ed is showing, and I begged him to consider it for a non-subscriber rate. I'm willing to pay a premium for it.


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## ed buller (May 7, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> I have taken seven of those courses. Wonderful stuff that has helped me review and build on what I learned in school so many years ago.
> 
> I asked Alain about his new course, which I guess Ed is showing, and I begged him to consider it for a non-subscriber rate. I'm willing to pay a premium for it.



I'm curious. Why not subscribe ?

best

e


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## jonathanparham (May 7, 2020)

ed buller said:


> I'm curious. Why not subscribe ?
> 
> best
> 
> e


lol I was JUST looking at the new website and hadn't realized what the cost was. But what I communicated to Alain was it takes me a while to get through a class. I'm a slow learner and try to be comprehensive. It took me almost a calendar year to get through OTL2 because I'm doing it in 'dribs/drabs' and breaks from other projects and gigs. I'm also 'honest' and really do the 'end of section' suggested exercises. I mean I have notebooks of course notes and sketch exercises from all my previous purchases. So I guess its a time cost thing of paying for another subscription for something that if I had it in say a textbook form that I can pull out when I need it; it might fit my lifestyle. I'm working daily through OTL3 because my gig went on hiatus during the quarantine.
But I'm not complaining about the cost at ALL. On VI I push Scoreclub all the time. Whenever I see the 'how do I get started composing posts?' My answer is 'SCORECLUB' 
I personally would love Alain's approach to other aspects of our craft. Mixing and Mastering, midi Programming, DAW building lol. Speaking as someone who used to be in music education but changed his major; 'Alain is knowledgeable, enthusiastic, AND practical.'


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## lucor (Jul 30, 2020)

Has Alain finished his 'Advanced Tonal Harmony' course yet? And is it as good as his other courses?


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## jonathanparham (Jul 30, 2020)

lucor said:


> Has Alain finished his 'Advanced Tonal Harmony' course yet? And is it as good as his other courses?


No. But he is posting as he finishes a chapter. Since my above post I have started the subscription service. Though at a discounted rate as I've purchased his courses prior to the subscription model


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## D Halgren (Jul 30, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> No. But he is posting as he finishes a chapter. Since my above post I have started the subscription service. Though at a discounted rate as I've purchased his courses prior to the subscription model


In a way I just look at it like a patreon, where I am supporting his good work.


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## emilio_n (Jul 30, 2020)

I am wondering is Scoreclub is suited for people with very low theory knowledge. I learn music decades ago and now I just play for fun but I forgot most of the things. 
Tempted to join the club several times but I am afraid that is a waste of money if you don't have the minimum level.


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## jonathanparham (Jul 30, 2020)

D Halgren said:


> In a way I just look at it like a patreon, where I am supporting his good work.


Yeah I mean. I use stuff all the time. I look at it like I look at my other subscriptions. There are times I've had AVID Sibileus and stop it but then keep Pro Tools per say. Regarding Scoreclub, I've done most of the courses prior to the subscription but Alain said, at the time, he wasn't going to release new things outside of it. Also, I have done some of the contests but I've yet to do some of the monthly score studies. There's more value there than I feel people realize. Also, his critiques are constructive.. I've revised sketches I've turned in. Yeah I think of it like a college master class


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## jonathanparham (Jul 30, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> I am wondering is Scoreclub is suited for people with very low theory knowledge. I learn music decades ago and now I just play for fun but I forgot most of the things.
> Tempted to join the club several times but I am afraid that is a waste of money if you don't have the minimum level.


Well what I shared before was I had freshman theory like 32 years ago. That's why I went to Scoreclub because I was like, 'before I drop $$ on Berklee or USC extensions stuff, let me check some things out.' I mean it was more of a confidence thing for me as I do use things from school but I'm not thinking about it. IMO the Essentials Composer Class is like a good highschool theory or freshman college level. I had counterpoint my 3rd year of school and Alain used species I can't even remember. Try the essentials class and if that seems easy jump a few lessons or try another course. 

What I like about Alain's stuff compared to other things out there is he is very pedagogical. I don't remember my school, beyond ensembles and specific composition assignments, being as musical as what Alain does. He applies the theory stuff quickly and musically all the time. 

My only constructive critque would be more modern film scores to analyze. There's copyright issues and , not that Alain says this, but the attitude that modern film music changes too much on the stage and it's better to look at older scores anyway.


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## emilio_n (Jul 30, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> Well what I shared before was I had freshman theory like 32 years ago. That's why I went to Scoreclub because I was like, 'before I drop $$ on Berklee or USC extensions stuff, let me check some things out.' I mean it was more of a confidence thing for me as I do use things from school but I'm not thinking about it. IMO the Essentials Composer Class is like a good highschool theory or freshman college level. I had counterpoint my 3rd year of school and Alain used species I can't even remember. Try the essentials class and if that seems easy jump a few lessons or try another course.
> 
> What I like about Alain's stuff compared to other things out there is he is very pedagogical. I don't remember my school, beyond ensembles and specific composition assignments, being as musical as what Alain does. He applies the theory stuff quickly and musically all the time.
> 
> My only constructive critque would be more modern film scores to analyze. There's copyright issues and , not that Alain says this, but the attitude that modern film music changes too much on the stage and it's better to look at older scores anyway.


You are right. I can try just one month and see. 
I studied very basic theory when I was a teenager and I was learning piano, one life ago... lol. Barely I remember how to read a music sheet at the speed of a turtle.


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## Gingerbread (Jul 30, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> You are right. I can try just one month and see.
> I studied very basic theory when I was a teenager and I was learning piano, one life ago... lol. Barely I remember how to read a music sheet at the speed of a turtle.


I knew no music theory when I began studying at Score Club. His 'Foundation' course (also called 'Essential Composer Course') is an entry-level theory class, and it was so understandable and so thorough---much better than any YouTube video. The guy just _knows_ how to teach, in a very step-by-step fashion, with great visual/audio examples along the way. The courses get more advanced as they progress. It's a very solid, and well-thought-out curriculum.

And yeah, I'm not crazy about the subscription model either. I understand why Alain did it, but it's not ideal from a student perspective. To get the most out of the classes, you need to go slow, and actually _do_ the exercises, which he emphasizes. Just passively watching videos doesn't get you anywhere.


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## schrodinger1612 (Aug 8, 2020)

Is there a poor man’s scoreclub that is of comparable quality?  I’m very much in a dilemma about this because while I know it’s a great course (based on popular opinion), it’s still very expensive. I like to work at my own pace, and I just feel that the monthly fee adds too much pressure to get my money’s worth.


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## d.healey (Aug 8, 2020)

schrodinger1612 said:


> Is there a poor man’s scoreclub that is of comparable quality?


Mike Verta. Although the teaching style is very different.


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## schrodinger1612 (Aug 8, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Mike Verta. Although the teaching style is very different.


I forgot to mention, I have a few of his videos; they’re great though I’d prefer to supplement them with something more structured.


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## JF (Aug 8, 2020)

Another recommendation here for Scoreclub!


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## d.healey (Aug 8, 2020)

schrodinger1612 said:


> I forgot to mention, I have a few of his videos; they’re great though I’d prefer to supplement them with something more structured.


Nothing beats scoreclub


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Aug 8, 2020)

imo anything 2nd to score club would be a very very distant second. Though I will admit I don't feel positive about his subscription model - rather than learning on my own time I will have to work on a new course for a month and then unsub until another class comes out.


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## jonathanparham (Aug 8, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> imo anything 2nd to score club would be a very very distant second. Though I will admit I don't feel positive about his subscription model - rather than learning on my own time I will have to work on a new course for a month and then unsub until another class comes out.


have you done the new tonal harmony? If you unsubscribe for a time, can you resubscribe at the same price?


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Aug 8, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> have you done the new tonal harmony? If you unsubscribe for a time, can you resubscribe at the same price?


just started it actually - the reason I subbed. 

I have no idea? I hope so. That was my assumption.


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 8, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> imo anything 2nd to score club would be a very very distant second. Though I will admit I don't feel positive about his subscription model - rather than learning on my own time I will have to work on a new course for a month and then unsub until another class comes out.


I guess I'm an exception

I owned everything except the beginner stuff and was happy but I DID voice my concerns(which he seemed to change his model based on that).

it might also be that me voicing my concern had a direct change to the result - even if the system wasn't what I would have done, it was a step in the right direction. 

haven't found the explanation that makes orchestration click with me yet.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Aug 8, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> haven't found the explanation that makes orchestration click with me yet.


When it was just OTL it didnt click for me either but when I started OTL2 I realised how he was thinking and it changed everything for me.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Aug 8, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I guess I'm an exception
> 
> I owned everything except the beginner stuff and was happy but I DID voice my concerns(which he seemed to change his model based on that).
> 
> ...


It's not a bad idea but it's so $$$$


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## ProfoundSilence (Aug 8, 2020)

I do like OTL, but sometimes I still feel like its too micro and not macro enough? 

I'm not sure, it works for him and it clicks for him - but there are some things I still just haven't found the right description/viewpoint.


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## Nova (Aug 8, 2020)

I think scoreclub is, hands down, the best material that I've found. The subscription model killed it for me for some of the same reasons listed above. Maybe I didn't get a good understanding of what the subscription model offered beyond 'here's the same classes but it's subscription now'. Can anyone that is currently subscribing comment on what else is offered.


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## JyTy (Aug 9, 2020)

For me, it is worth every penny!! As many of you already stated here it is one of the best resources you could find! Maybe it is not the best starter for someone completely inexperienced, but I'm in music for 12+ years now in some shape and form and this took my knowledge to a whole new level, connected so many dots that were missing before and improved my thinking when writing. I couldn't recommend it enough!


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## el-bo (Aug 9, 2020)

schrodinger1612 said:


> Is there a poor man’s scoreclub that is of comparable quality?  I’m very much in a dilemma about this because while I know it’s a great course (based on popular opinion), it’s still very expensive. I like to work at my own pace, and I just feel that the monthly fee adds too much pressure to get my money’s worth.



One option might be to do alternate months? Use your 'on' month(s) to blast through a few sections of a course, a couple of times, taking clear notes etc. Then use your 'off' month(s) to revise the notes, practice the ideas, and supplement the learning with material from other sources.


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## schrodinger1612 (Aug 9, 2020)

el-bo said:


> One option might be to do alternate months? Use your 'on' month(s) to blast through a few sections of a course, a couple of times, taking clear notes etc. Then use your 'off' month(s) to revise the notes, practice the ideas, and supplement the learning with material from other sources.


Yes this is a great idea


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## el-bo (Aug 9, 2020)

schrodinger1612 said:


> Yes this is a great idea



I might also give SC a shot, albeit on an 'every third month' frequency.


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## jonathanparham (Aug 9, 2020)

el-bo said:


> One option might be to do alternate months? Use your 'on' month(s) to blast through a few sections of a course, a couple of times, taking clear notes etc. Then use your 'off' month(s) to revise the notes, practice the ideas, and supplement the learning with material from other sources.


Yeahhhh BUT is it in the 'rules' that we can resubscribe at the same rate? I guess I can ask. Alain seems open for discussion about the platform


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## kclements (Aug 9, 2020)

from the original email:

_And to be clear, once you are a member, your price stays the same until you choose to cancel._

I think I remember him saying if you re-subscribe, it will be at the current price. So if it goes up, your price goes up. But, wouldn’t hurt to get clarification from Alain


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## jonathanparham (Aug 9, 2020)

hmmm. so it seems you cannot drop in and drop out at the same price


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## el-bo (Aug 9, 2020)

kclements said:


> from the original email:
> 
> _And to be clear, once you are a member, your price stays the same until you choose to cancel._
> 
> I think I remember him saying if you re-subscribe, it will be at the current price. So if it goes up, your price goes up. But, wouldn’t hurt to get clarification from Alain



I would've assumed that to be the case, but thanks for the clarification.


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## jonathanparham (Aug 9, 2020)

I just sent an email at the ScoreClub site, mentioned this thread, and asked Alain to clarify.


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## Rory (Aug 9, 2020)

Is it correct that Scoreclub videos require Chrome or Firefox to play? Their video test page requires one of those browsers to carry out the test.


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## musicalweather (Aug 9, 2020)

Have never taken any Scoreclub course, but it all looks great. And the fact that there are so many positive testimonies here on VI-C speaks well for it. But the subscription model rules it out completely. Like others here, I'd have to fit the coursework between a full time job, family duties, and occasional music gigs. I don't think I could get through a course in a month, nor would I really want to. I'd prefer to take my time. I'd rather pay more upfront and have access to the course indefinitely.


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## jonathanparham (Aug 9, 2020)

Ok Alain responded. I gave him the link and mentioned this thread he's allowing me to post. He siad 'I'
ll take look.'
===============================================================



> > Hi Jonathan,
> >
> > thanks for the email.
> >
> > ...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 9, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Mike Verta. Although the teaching style is very different.


Night and day, as far as approach is concerned.
Alain's course is much more structured and to the point


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## kclements (Aug 10, 2020)

it does seem like the program is geared toward big orchestral stuff. And I understand that it can all be applied to other genres, but for those of you who’ve taken a couple classes, how do you find it translated to maybe more hybrid stuff? Or smaller ensemble/swing styles?


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## jonathanparham (Aug 10, 2020)

kclements said:


> it does seem like the program is geared toward big orchestral stuff. And I understand that it can all be applied to other genres, but for those of you who’ve taken a couple classes, how do you find it translated to maybe more hybrid stuff? Or smaller ensemble/swing styles?


good Question.I assume you're referring to the Orchestrating the Line (OTL) series. I'd say yes because voice leading and counterpoint is applicable to all genre. In OTL he uses short score which I had never done before. Up until then I'd just open my template and start putting stuff in, but then I would get bogged down and want to quit or I'd go off onto this musical tangent and get lost. In OTL series Alain uses a 4 stave short score and puts all his voices and textures in those four staves. It's a challenge to think through the elements of the 'line'. It's up to you whether that top voice is 16, 8, 4, or solo violin in terms of big OR a smaller compound texture. Orchestrating the Line is literally developing the line whether the line be melody, ostinato, accompaniment, or an effect like run or cluster.
For my own writing, I love Samples but I was questioning the size of a lot of libraries. Was it what my client wanted or what I hear in my head 'too big?' OTL reinforce me to think about that AS I'm writing.
Sorry, I don't know when you say hybrid you mean Lauri Anderson (small) or Hans Zimmer (big). My answer would still be, 'yes.'


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## kclements (Aug 10, 2020)

Thanks Jonathan - very well put. by Hybrid, I mean incorporating Synths, Arps and Beats and such, say from Omnisphere or the like to build movement. Most of the work I do is for Library Production, so I don't get the opportunity to do big, full on Orchestral stuff very much. But I think you confirmed what I was thinking. It is up to us to apply what we learn to our situation. Any knowledge can be used in the various genres. 

Cheers!


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## kclements (Aug 10, 2020)

Rory said:


> Is it correct that Scoreclub videos require Chrome or Firefox to play? Their video test page requires one of those browsers to carry out the test.



Yes - I can confirm that it will not work on iPad/iPhone, and I could not get it to work on Safari for Mac (even after disabling the security features.) I did have a couple of emails back and forth with Alain and he apologized, but with his DRM setup, there isn't a way around it. 

Not a huge fan of Chrome, but the bigger dissapointment for me is to not have it on my iPad. I would love to be able to work away from my desktop - watching the video on my iPad and doing the hand work. But I can understand his position.


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## JF (Aug 10, 2020)

kclements said:


> Yes - I can confirm that it will not work on iPad/iPhone, and I could not get it to work on Safari for Mac (even after disabling the security features.) I did have a couple of emails back and forth with Alain and he apologized, but with his DRM setup, there isn't a way around it.
> 
> Not a huge fan of Chrome, but the bigger dissapointment for me is to not have it on my iPad. I would love to be able to work away from my desktop - watching the video on my iPad and doing the hand work. But I can understand his position.


I had the same issue. I now use the Chrome app on the iPad only for Scoreclub.


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## kclements (Aug 10, 2020)

SO, Chrome on the iPad works? That's good to know. Thanks


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## BertInSJ (Aug 10, 2020)

kclements said:


> Yes - I can confirm that it will not work on iPad/iPhone, and I could not get it to work on Safari for Mac (even after disabling the security features.) I did have a couple of emails back and forth with Alain and he apologized, but with his DRM setup, there isn't a way around it.
> 
> Not a huge fan of Chrome, but the bigger dissapointment for me is to not have it on my iPad. I would love to be able to work away from my desktop - watching the video on my iPad and doing the hand work. But I can understand his position.



I am confused. ScoreClub works on my iPad using safari. 2017 iPad Pro and still on iOS 13.


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## kclements (Aug 10, 2020)

BertInSJ said:


> I am confused. ScoreClub works on my iPad using safari. 2017 iPad Pro and still on iOS 13.


Really? It won’t work for me. I tap the video and it opens a new tab with the video. Tap again, nothing.

maybe it’s just the test video that won’t work?


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## kclements (Aug 11, 2020)

Just signed up for membership. I can not get the videos to work on my iPad with Safari. Chrome on the iPad works fine, so I will use that.

One thing about the subscription model - it kind of forces me to participate. I purchased the Counterpoint course last year over Black Friday and went through a couple lessons. Because there was no urgency I didn’t get back to it. Now that I have to pay each month, I think I will be more motivated to go through the lessons.


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## jonathanparham (Aug 11, 2020)

kclements said:


> One thing about the subscription model - it kind of forces me to participate. I purchased the Counterpoint course last year over Black Friday and went through a couple lessons. Because there was no urgency I didn’t get back to it. Now that I have to pay each month, I think I will be more motivated to go through the lessons.



I really like the counterpoint 1 course. The Counterpoint 2 course is more about song from IMO. Don't forget that there are score studies and monthly contests at the web site as well. I think one of my long term goals is to slowly cycle back through the courses I've already purchased. So in between projects I can workshop skills similar to actors between shows or athletes between seasons. I can't remember but there's some forum member who has been through all the courses more than once.


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## PuerAzaelis (Aug 11, 2020)

Is there a list somewhere of a good order to take the courses?


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## d.healey (Aug 11, 2020)

PuerAzaelis said:


> Is there a list somewhere of a good order to take the courses?


I don't think there is a good order. Go with the subjects that interest you. When a video is part of a series though it makes sense to watch them in order, like OTL, OTL2, OTL3, etc. And the foundation class is probably the best place to start.


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## PuerAzaelis (Aug 11, 2020)

Okies tyvm


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## kclements (Aug 11, 2020)

PuerAzaelis said:


> Is there a list somewhere of a good order to take the courses?


There is a Course Map with a suggestion of order of study, kind of. But I am with David, order the classes in a way that works best for you.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 12, 2020)

Hi Ed (and all), 

I subscribed today and want to say that I am really enjoying OTL1 so far. Alain's style is *very *straightforward and just damn _practical_. This is basically 'how to apply what I learned in music school' to real-world writing. I've been looking for this kind of (orchestration) training for a while now. You can't find this in books.

Thanks so much for sharing


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## schrodinger1612 (Sep 15, 2020)

Hey guys, what order do you recommend taking these in as someone who only has basic knowledge of theory/harmony and is also just starting to play piano (i'm a guitarist but i can no longer ignore the usefulness of learning keys)?

I was thinking Foundations > Advanced Tonal Harmony > Orchestrating The Line > Counterpoint > Orchestrating The Line 2. The ear training course would be used throughout. I'm open to other suggestions though; for example, maybe i should delve into OTL before learning advanced tonal harmony?


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## d.healey (Sep 15, 2020)

schrodinger1612 said:


> Hey guys, what order do you recommend taking these in as someone who only has basic knowledge of theory/harmony and is also just starting to play piano (i'm a guitarist but i can no longer ignore the usefulness of learning keys)?
> 
> I was thinking Foundations > Advanced Tonal Harmony > Orchestrating The Line > Counterpoint > Orchestrating The Line 2. The ear training course would be used throughout. I'm open to other suggestions though; for example, maybe i should delve into OTL before learning advanced tonal harmony?


Scroll up 4 posts before yours - #52


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## Gingerbread (Sep 28, 2020)

schrodinger1612 said:


> Hey guys, what order do you recommend taking these in as someone who only has basic knowledge of theory/harmony and is also just starting to play piano (i'm a guitarist but i can no longer ignore the usefulness of learning keys)?
> 
> I was thinking Foundations > Advanced Tonal Harmony > Orchestrating The Line > Counterpoint > Orchestrating The Line 2. The ear training course would be used throughout. I'm open to other suggestions though; for example, maybe i should delve into OTL before learning advanced tonal harmony?


This will seem counter-intuitive, but when taking the OTL courses, I suggest starting with OTL 2 instead of 1. It's actually the better and more complete course, and you don't need to have taken 1 first. A lot of people have commented (and I agree) that OTL 2 does a better job of truly explaining the core concepts, with practical application. It's also a bit more fun and inspiring. You can then take 1 afterward.

In any case, definitely start with Foundations first. And go s-l-o-w-l-y, _doing the exercises!_


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## schrodinger1612 (Sep 28, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> This will seem counter-intuitive, but when taking the OTL courses, I suggest starting with OTL 2 instead of 1. It's actually the better and more complete course, and you don't need to have taken 1 first. A lot of people have commented (and I agree) that OTL 2 does a better job of truly explaining the core concepts, with practical application. It's also a bit more fun and inspiring. You can then take 1 afterward.
> 
> In any case, definitely start with Foundations first. And go s-l-o-w-l-y, _doing the exercises!_


Thanks for the pointer. I am still working my way through foundations...a lot of teachers bore me to tears but I really jive with alain’s teaching style.


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## jonathanparham (Sep 28, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> This will seem counter-intuitive, but when taking the OTL courses, I suggest starting with OTL 2 instead of 1. It's actually the better and more complete course, and you don't need to have taken 1 first. A lot of people have commented (and I agree) that OTL 2 does a better job of truly explaining the core concepts, with practical application. It's also a bit more fun and inspiring. You can then take 1 afterward.


Well I think it depends on how much of a core you have. I can see in the future maybe OTL1&2 Combining in one larger course. But I like the OTL1 flow chart, octave writing, and mark up stuff quite a bit. I think it builds off Alain's harmony course.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Sep 28, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> I suggest starting with OTL 2 instead of 1. It's actually the better and more complete course, and you don't need to have taken 1 first. A lot of people have commented (and I agree) that OTL 2 does a better job of truly explaining the core concepts, with practical application


well - OTL1 starts you off purely with the foreground which is one of the best aspects of Alain's Orchestral teachings because you can then apply the concepts anywhere. OTL2 just continues on with the generic middleground/background orchestration that you find anywhere.

If you start with OTL2 concept of what Alain calls "orchestrating the line" (thickening, accenting, doubling etc) will go completely over your head and you'll be either confused or missing half the information during the entire course. I would not recommend starting with OTL2.


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## marclawsonmusic (Sep 29, 2020)

I agree with Simon. Getting the 'main line' developed should be your first concern (OTL1). Once you've done that, you know which colors remain for the middleground / background.


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## shponglefan (Sep 29, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> I am wondering is Scoreclub is suited for people with very low theory knowledge. I learn music decades ago and now I just play for fun but I forgot most of the things.
> Tempted to join the club several times but I am afraid that is a waste of money if you don't have the minimum level.



I realize this is an older comment, but I wanted to give my 2 cents as I recently started working through some of the ScoreClub courses.

There is a lot of basic music theory knowledge that is taken for granted in his courses. He doesn't start with the absolute basics, so one needs to come in with that knowledge.

Even going into his essential composer training course, he states that one should be able to instantly find any chord in all the major and minor scales and for all inversions. While I can certainly find the respective chords, I don't have everything strictly memorized for instantaneous recall. So I find myself going back to my piano just to practice various scales and chords to try to shore up my knowledge of those.

While it does seem to be a lot of good content in his courses, they do require a foundational level of music theory knowledge to really take advantage of them.


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## shponglefan (Sep 29, 2020)

schrodinger1612 said:


> a lot of teachers bore me to tears but I really jive with alain’s teaching style.



Something I notice with his teaching is there isn't a lot of fluff. Everything seems straight to the point, which is something I can appreciate.


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## rmak (Dec 28, 2020)

JyTy said:


> For me, it is worth every penny!! As many of you already stated here it is one of the best resources you could find! Maybe it is not the best starter for someone completely inexperienced, but I'm in music for 12+ years now in some shape and form and this took my knowledge to a whole new level, connected so many dots that were missing before and improved my thinking when writing. I couldn't recommend it enough!


This is great thing to hear


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## rmak (Dec 28, 2020)

el-bo said:


> One option might be to do alternate months? Use your 'on' month(s) to blast through a few sections of a course, a couple of times, taking clear notes etc. Then use your 'off' month(s) to revise the notes, practice the ideas, and supplement the learning with material from other sources.


I like this idea. So it sounds like you can cancel and resume membership without any fees or penalty?


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## rmak (Dec 28, 2020)

A lot of good information on here. I think I will give this a try as the two Mike Verta courses I purchased are not quite working for me.

it seems like you follow along with course using pencil, paper, and maybe a music score sheet? I read through the website and was trying to find out more about how people should follow along with the course. Do you use your DAW and libraries in conjunction?

update: I think I found it in the FAQ that the author prefers you to write. It looks like I'll need to print some manuscript paper.

Are the monthly score studies collected somewhere? Can I watch the ones that were done in the past?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 28, 2020)

rmak said:


> A lot of good information on here. I think I will give this a try as the two Mike Verta courses I purchased are not quite working for me.
> 
> it seems like you follow along with course using pencil, paper, and maybe a music score sheet? I read through the website and was trying to find out more about how people should follow along with the course. Do you use your DAW and libraries in conjunction?
> 
> ...



Should've listened to me in the first place 

The monthly score studies are accessible once you subscribe I believe - there's a Score Study tab. There are 12 of them but as he says "are meant for more advanced students" who have taken the core courses.

You should focus on writing in whatever way you feel most comfortable in my opinion. He does recommend staff paper, but I have done it on Staffpad, Dorico, and the piano roll in a DAW. The important thing is to apply the concepts and do a lot of practicing so no matter what tool you are using, you become adept at the concepts.


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## rmak (Dec 28, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Should've listened to me in the first place
> 
> The monthly score studies are accessible once you subscribe I believe - there's a Score Study tab. There are 12 of them but as he says "are meant for more advanced students" who have taken the core courses.
> 
> You should focus on writing in whatever way you feel most comfortable in my opinion. He does recommend staff paper, but I have done it on Staffpad, Dorico, and the piano roll in a DAW. The important thing is to apply the concepts and do a lot of practicing so no matter what tool you are using, you become adept at the concepts.


Haha yea I wish I did, but its okay I guess. At least I didn't buy too many courses and maybe I'll listen to those courses on a more passive capacity (when I am working out for instance) to see if anything catches my ear.

Thanks for your tips and advice! I"ll probably use staff paper as I don't have notation software, but I do have Logic. for sure, it's all about application. That is the most important thing to me now. I don't want to just read and learn for the sake of learning anymore.


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## markit (Jan 1, 2021)

I’ve been studying many courses so far and they all seems to rush certain sections. I will eventually sign up for this, as so many positive reviews really intrigued me!

However, this is not a critique really, but a subscription model is meant to generate a predictable and steady cash flow, with a constant influx of new subscribers. It basically works on increasing quantity of users by keeping the price somewhat cheap to what it’d cost to “own rather than rent”.

I do understand the return on investment here could be invaluable, but $60 is a challenging entry point. It’d be more expensive than all my entertainment services combined. More expensive than my cat insurance, more expensive than my car insurance, and more expensive than my own life insurance :D

Back when I was in my 20, I could’ve never afforded anything like this. Nonetheless, I will subscribe to this as soon as I have a bit more of spare time to make my money worth.


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## rmak (Jan 1, 2021)

markit said:


> I’ve been studying many courses so far and they all seems to rush certain sections. I will eventually sign up for this, as so many positive reviews really intrigued me!
> 
> However, this is not a critique really, but a subscription model is meant to generate a predictable and steady cash flow, with a constant influx of new subscribers. It basically works on increasing quantity of users by keeping the price somewhat cheap to what it’d cost to “own rather than rent”.
> 
> ...



I am planning to subscribe a month at a time. A month to go through and practice material and then maybe an unpaid or pause month to review and practice material on my own based on my notes and downloaded pdfs. That might save some in the long run. Or you can go through modules very efficiently/quickly with your first month and take good notes, and then practice and go through them more thoroughly on your own.

I am about 3 days into my subscription and have gone through about 1.5 modules. I am hoping to get to some of the orchestrating the line modules which is somewhat arranged as the last topic to be covered in the course outline. But I am learning a good amount from the essential composer training harmony sections. The community forum is a nice added feature.

Maybe someone can speak to whether or not starting on OTL1 would be okay if you haven't completed all the modules in order according to the outline provided by the course.


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## markit (Jan 1, 2021)

@rmak this is exactly why the model puzzles me. It could be priced in a manner that encourage people to stay in, rather than pause. A person unsubscribing means less predictable income? Which is something the man absolutely deserve given the quality you all point out here!

That said, the possibility to put on pause and restart is great and appreciated 

Exercises aside, is the course primarily based on videos or is there a lot more of additional content in written form?


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## ed buller (Jan 1, 2021)

markit said:


> Exercises aside, is the course primarily based on videos or is there a lot more of additional content in written form?


It's pretty much all videos. But some are very long. For instance just one lesson in Chromatic Harmony ( common tone chords ) is 36 mins Long !!!...the whole course is 13 hours !!!!

so for 60 bucks you get access to about 70 hours of lessons. Each lesson will require multiple viewings. And it's all here. If you do every lesson in the whole scoreclub...and really absorb it...you will be very knowledge in music and compositional theory. you will also have a handle on orchestration. This really is a fanatic resource. So over a year ( and i'm taking 2 hours five days a week here ) you'll be sorted and it would have cost you 720$...same price as BBCSO ...and to be honest...much more useful!

best

ed


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## rmak (Jan 1, 2021)

markit said:


> @rmak this is exactly why the model puzzles me. It could be priced in a manner that encourage people to stay in, rather than pause. A person unsubscribing means less predictable income? Which is something the man absolutely deserve given the quality you all point out here!
> 
> That said, the possibility to put on pause and restart is great and appreciated
> 
> Exercises aside, is the course primarily based on videos or is there a lot more of additional content in written form?


With only the videos I have watched in essential composer training and half of the ear training ones, he usually has an electronic manuscript paper open and he inputs all the examples on it using a stylus like tool I am guessing. When he plays on the keyboard, a view of the keyboard will show below the manuscript paper. He encourages you to write and practice on manuscript paper. After each lesson, there are usually exercises to do; I have skipped some of the ones pertaining to topics I am more familiar with. But it is very hands on and the examples and explanations are clear so far. There has been a few instances where I got confused, but overall it is very thorough.

I think at the very least, an individual taking the course should have some basic music theory knowledge. Otherwise, it will be hard to follow since everything is done on the manuscript paper. I spend a little more time sight reading, so sometimes I will pause the video and study the written examples on the manuscript before moving on.

I am thinking of this like as a replacement for my gym membership potentially. I have some relatively new workout equipment and no longer have gym membership as I did a year ago =)


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## shponglefan (Jan 1, 2021)

rmak said:


> I like this idea. So it sounds like you can cancel and resume membership without any fees or penalty?



It doesn't look like there are any penalties. I recently subscribed for a few months then canceled back in Nov. It just kept up my membership until the end of the month at which point I lost access to the course material pages.

There is a re-subscribe button in the account settings which I presume would re-activate the subscription.


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## Antkn33 (Jan 1, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Mike Verta. Although the teaching style is very different.


Check his Twitter feed before you give him your money.


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## cqd (Jan 1, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> Check his Twitter feed before you give him your money.


Why?.. Thought crime?..


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 1, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> Check his Twitter feed before you give him your money.


Hope you never studied mahler 

<,<


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## d.healey (Jan 1, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> Check his Twitter feed before you give him your money.


To the drama zone with you!


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## joebaggan (Jan 3, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> Check his Twitter feed before you give him your money.


The pocketbook is a very powerful thing. We all have the power to support or not support whatever we like, and Verta is not getting my money. That would be enabling.


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## Antkn33 (Jan 6, 2021)

Can anyone give details on the exercises given for the lessons? The web site reference that exercises are given, but there are no details. 
I find this area to be lacking in most courses. Thanks.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 6, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> Can anyone give details on the exercises given for the lessons? The web site reference that exercises are given, but there are no details.
> I find this area to be lacking in most courses. Thanks.


Not every "course" has exercises I've noticed, but you can come up with some for yourself to apply what he's been talking about. A lot of this is just practice, practice, practice - and unlike math, there's not going to be a set of "problems" to go solve. You have to just write and apply the concepts from the lesson.


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## ism (Jan 6, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Not every "course" has exercises I've noticed, but you can come up with some for yourself to apply what he's been talking about. A lot of this is just practice, practice, practice - and unlike math, there's not going to be a set of "problems" to go solve. You have to just write and apply the concepts from the lesson.



I do think that there's genuine pedagogical value in more formal, conceptually targeted, and progressively designed excercises. At least for some students, not necessarily people on the more experienced working composers side of the spectrum. Especially those who struggle with the "terror of the blank page".

Scoreclub has some of this (Alain's teaching experience certainly shows up in lots of ways). But it's not formalized as tightly as, for instance, Alan Belkin's "Musical Composition"


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## jonathanparham (Jan 6, 2021)

Antkn33 said:


> Can anyone give details on the exercises given for the lessons? The web site reference that exercises are given, but there are no details.
> I find this area to be lacking in most courses. Thanks.


Depends on the course. In some of the classes, he has bullet points of things to do. But most of it, and I'm reviewing Orchestrating the Line again now, he says, go do this and this. He doesn't write it out.


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## Arbee (Sep 10, 2021)

I was about to start a new thread with the same title when I came across this one, so I'm just going to heap some more praise on ScoreClub.

While I was immersed in classical piano as a child, in rock guitar as a teenager, and in jazz/art rock as a young adult, I've never gone to university to learn music theory. This is despite becoming a reasonably successful studio musician and arranger (by obsessively reading, analyzing and listening to mentors).

Each time I tried formal music theory, over many decades, my eyes immediately glazed over with total boredom and I would become comatose. Until now....

Covid lockdown has re-ignited my determination to conquer this mountain. So, armed with a number of printed and digital formal music composition and theory texts, I enrolled in ScoreClub as part of a multi-pronged attack. Well, ScoreClub has been an evangelical experience for me, it holds my interest at all times, and I am SO appreciative of Alain's approach.

If anyone is in doubt, just do it!


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## borisb2 (Sep 11, 2021)

I think scoreclub is great - learned a lot through OTL and melodic mastery.

What I did find missing was a course dealing with bigger structures, taking all the blocks he is teaching and bringing them to live in a longer form, dealing with contrast, transitions, development etc. I did suggest that to him once and he seemed very interested - but I don’t think there is a course dealing with that.. or is there?

Alain Belkins composition book has a lot of chapters dedicated to these concepts - but that’s more a theory book (less practical examples)


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## mopsiflopsi (Sep 11, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> I think scoreclub is great - learned a lot through OTL and melodic mastery.
> 
> What I did find missing was a course dealing with bigger structures, taking all the blocks he is teaching and bringing them to live in a longer form, dealing with contrast, transitions, development etc. I did suggest that to him once and he seemed very interested - but I don’t think there is a course dealing with that.. or is there?
> 
> Alain Belkins composition book has a lot of chapters dedicated to these concepts - but that’s more a theory book (less practical examples)


Counterpoint 2 has a bit of that: period form, contrast, repetition, etc. But yeah there is definitely room for a more comprehensive study of form and structure.


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