# Tom Holkenborg Releases Percussion Collection via Orchestral Tools



## dedene (Jun 3, 2021)

So what’s this about? 









Tom Holkenborg Releases Percussion Collection via Orchestral Tools - Gearspace.com


Tom Holkenborg and Orchestral Tools announce the release of Tom Holkenborg’s Percussion—a new,...



gearspace.com


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## ZeeCount (Jun 3, 2021)

dedene said:


> So what’s this about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like someone might have jumped the gun, as there is nothing on orchestral tools website about this yet.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

dedene said:


> So what’s this about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh dude I've been waiting for him to do something like this.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

ZeeCount said:


> Looks like someone might have jumped the gun, as there is nothing on orchestral tools website about this yet.


Coming on June 9th. The site isn't up yet.


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## dedene (Jun 3, 2021)

ZeeCount said:


> Looks like someone might have jumped the gun, as there is nothing on orchestral tools website about this yet.


Indeed, not sure if it’s intended like this but for sure something interesting is coming out soon 😄


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## iMovieShout (Jun 3, 2021)

Intriguing!!! I wonder how this will be different from Hans Zimmer's Percussion libraries that were created with Spitfire Audio??


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## Evans (Jun 3, 2021)

> and with up to 100 dynamic layers per drum



Wat


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

jpb007.uk said:


> Intriguing!!! I wonder how this will be different from Hans Zimmer's Percussion libraries that were created with Spitfire Audio??


It will be a lot different. If you go to his youtube channel he talks about how he samples drums. I started do it with resampling my libraries and it's a very creative fun way to do it. 

I do know that LAMP tried to do something like it.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

Evans said:


> Wat


He uses dynamic layers rather than rr. It's amazing really because it allows you to be very expressive in your programming.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

Here a clip from his video talking about his drums.


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## Frederick (Jun 3, 2021)

I think the VSL Synchron percussion is also sampled extremely deep (like almost 800GB for part I and II) I'm a fan of those so maybe I'll love these as well?

Hmm. I do have Berlin Strings and Woodwinds, but not the brass or percussion. I wonder if I'll be able to not get Tom Holkenborg's brass and percussion bundle. That's 699 + VAT. But then again part of the brass wasn't recceived all that well if I remember correctly.

I'll let myself out and go do the samplehoarder thing elsewhere. For now.


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## Getsumen (Jun 3, 2021)

Interesting that the collab seems to be a reoccurring thing. 
Wondering if they might do anything else (Synths? Dunno) 

299 Euro regular, 199 intro drum lib. Pretty cheap for OT standards


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## FireGS (Jun 3, 2021)

I'm sorry, 100 dynamic layers?


but..... wha...

Mapped across the keyboard, like Audio Ollie LA Percussion


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

FireGS said:


> I'm sorry, 100 dynamic layers?
> 
> 
> but..... wha...
> ...


Yes, but most keyboards have a max of 88 keys so this will be interesting.


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## Casiquire (Jun 3, 2021)

This sounds really intriguing, though there seems to be some overlap with Arks. 

Can we take a moment discuss OT'S error messages?


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## Toecutter (Jun 3, 2021)

wow was not expecting that, and of all places a leak on GS... VIC isn't cool anymore? XD
Great intro price, very competitive compared to other percussion libraries.


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## Toecutter (Jun 3, 2021)

@OrchestralTools will there be any crossgrade offer for owners of Junkie XL Brass?


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## pfmusic (Jun 3, 2021)

100 dynamic layers. Am I missing something here?


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## Jacob Fanto (Jun 3, 2021)

I'm already sensing the JXL Perc vs. Damage 2 debates...


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## FireGS (Jun 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Yes, but most keyboards have a max of 88 keys so this will be interesting.


omg.


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## muziksculp (Jun 3, 2021)

Looking forward to this one. 

I just purchased OT-JunkieXL F.Horns a6 and the Cimabasi a3 Individual Instruments. They sound wonderful, I'm sure the JXL Perc. will sound awesome.


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## Simon Lee (Jun 3, 2021)

I was going to pull the trigger on Damage 2. I might just wait to see how this one turns out.


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## jamwerks (Jun 3, 2021)

Hopefully Ark III will be available soon on Sine. Now that's a percussion library!!


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## borisb2 (Jun 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I do know that LAMP tried to do something like it.


using LAMP .. very happy customer .. case closed


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## sopwith (Jun 3, 2021)

> intro offer price of €199


Instant buy.

Knew there was a reason I held off on HZ percussion last week.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> using LAMP .. very happy customer .. case closed


It's great but it could use like a dozen or so dynamic layers so that there aren't big jumps in volume especially as it goes louder.


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 3, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> @OrchestralTools will there be any crossgrade offer for owners of Junkie XL Brass?


Unbelievable. The developer hasn't even announced the product yet, and you are already asking for a discount?

100 dynamic layers - whoa. Can't wait to see how that's done.


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## Zedcars (Jun 3, 2021)




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## borisb2 (Jun 3, 2021)

wonder if one can skip 50 of these layers .. still would be plenty enough.

wonder how big that library will be .. another gazillion GB?


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> wonder if one can skip 50 of these layers .. still would be plenty enough.
> 
> wonder how big that library will be .. another gazillion GB?


I think somewhere around 2mbs with Sine player's ultra-hyper-uber-mega zero loss compression. Patent pending.


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## Casiquire (Jun 3, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> wonder if one can skip 50 of these layers .. still would be plenty enough.
> 
> wonder how big that library will be .. another gazillion GB?


Fortunately with OT you *can* skip fifty dynamic layers 😁


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

And..... with the convenient store built right into the Sine player you don't even have to download the library to your hard drive. It streams directly from their server straight through your bank account every time you play a note.


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## borisb2 (Jun 3, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Fortunately with OT you *can* skip fifty dynamic layers 😁


you think they all will show up in that bottom right corner?

pppp1 pppp2 pppp3 ppp1 ppp2 ppp3 .. think thats still not enough division


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## Toecutter (Jun 3, 2021)

RonOrchComp said:


> Unbelievable. The developer hasn't even announced the product yet, and you are already asking for a discount?
> 
> 100 dynamic layers - whoa. Can't wait to see how that's done.


What's the problem? They *are *bundling Junkie Brass and Percussion at a discounted price, hence my question. Get off your high horse for once, you are always bossing people around here, "unbelievable"


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## lettucehat (Jun 3, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> What's the problem? They *are *bundling Junkie Brass and Percussion at a discounted price, hence my question. Get off your high horse for once, you are always bossing people around here, "unbelievable"


I can't believe you would ask for further information about the product.


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## karender (Jun 3, 2021)

Is this real? I mean these guys announce the announcement and then slowly build-up to the release. Now they are suddenly releasing a library with a AAA Hollywood composer name on it? Out of nowhere?


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## Karl Feuerstake (Jun 3, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> What's the problem? They *are *bundling Junkie Brass and Percussion at a discounted price, hence my question. Get off your high horse for once, you are always bossing people around here, "unbelievable"


Excuse me, but you're not allowed to ask that question. Inquiries regarding customer loyalty are "unbelievable."


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## borisb2 (Jun 3, 2021)

actually I thought it would take up more screen space


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## Karl Feuerstake (Jun 3, 2021)

karender said:


> Is this real? I mean these guys announce the announcement and then slowly build-up to the release. Now they are suddenly releasing a library with a AAA Hollywood composer name on it? Out of nowhere?


Looks pretty real but it seems the news post was published before OT's store page was ready.


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## mscp (Jun 3, 2021)

I wonder what this library is capable of....


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Here a clip from his video talking about his drums.



I would guess the drums you hear in that video are part of this package - why re-record them if he already has the samples recorded. I'm wonder if OT is serving any role outside of distribution and sample player.


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## FireGS (Jun 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Here a clip from his video talking about his drums.



After watching him do it, I really dont see how this is a better method than a single key and velocity layers. Percussion is typically measured by how hard you hit it, and MIDI velocity is designed to be a good way of doing this. 

And there's 127 possible values, too. So....? How is this better?


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## karender (Jun 3, 2021)

FireGS said:


> After watching him do it, I really dont see how this is a better method than a single key and velocity layers. Percussion is typically measured by how hard you hit it, and MIDI velocity is designed to be a good way of doing this.
> 
> And there's 127 possible values, too. So....? How is this better?


It's not better, just a different way to work. But it should be easy to give users options, so we can choose whatever we want


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## borisb2 (Jun 3, 2021)

FireGS said:


> After watching him do it, I really dont see how this is a better method than a single key and velocity layers. Percussion is typically measured by how hard you hit it, and MIDI velocity is designed to be a good way of doing this.
> 
> And there's 127 possible values, too. So....? How is this better?


I think its a worse method.

after getting LAMP I had a go trying to adapt my playing to keymapped dynamic samples. I found it way less intuitive, going against how I naturally would hit and play drums. On top of that, too often I draw crescendo ramps, compress or expand the velocities of a recorded part to customize and improve the dynamics further, which s all easily done in Cubase massaging the velocities.. havent heard how you can "pitch-compress" a played piano part .. or add a crescendo by shifting the notes a bit higher towards the end with a curve?? .. dont think thats possible in Cubase? .. 
maybe JXL perc also offers standard velocity controlled patches - then I would consider having a closer look.

I ended up using LAMP only with regular velocity controlled patches .. and love it


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## Snarf (Jun 3, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> wonder if one can skip 50 of these layers .. still would be plenty enough.
> 
> wonder how big that library will be .. another gazillion GB?


In terms of GB, 100 dyn layers (assuming no round robins) is the same as 10 dynamic layers X 10 round robins - which is pretty similar to percussion libraries like Damage 2, 8Dio Epic Percussion, etc.

So the number of dynamic layers probably won't inflate the file size that much. Mic positions on the other hand...


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## FireGS (Jun 3, 2021)

Snarf said:


> 100 dyn layers (assuming no round robins) is the same as 10 dynamic layers X 10 round robins


Depends. If you programmed a robot to strike a drum head at 100 different levels of force, its not the same as 10x10. If there's a measurable difference, I'd argue that its truly 100 dynamic layers with no RR. RR's should be 10 different recordings of the same level of force. In theory.


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## FireGS (Jun 3, 2021)

karender said:


> It's not better, just a different way to work. But it should be easy to give users options, so we can choose whatever we want


I'm wondering if theres some sort of technical limitation in Kontakt that wouldn't allow 100 velocity layers. I know this is for SINE, but if its the same recordings as the above video, maybe that's why it was done?


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## Alex Niedt (Jun 3, 2021)

FireGS said:


> After watching him do it, I really dont see how this is a better method than a single key and velocity layers. Percussion is typically measured by how hard you hit it, and MIDI velocity is designed to be a good way of doing this.
> 
> And there's 127 possible values, too. So....? How is this better?


Feels more precise and intuitive, to me. I don't like fiddling with velocities, and if I can just find the exact sample I like on a key, perfect. If I decide to change that note/velocity later, I'd prefer to just drag the MIDI data on that key to another key rather than think in terms of numeric adjustments. It's all personal preference.


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## FireGS (Jun 3, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> Feels more precise and intuitive, to me. I don't like fiddling with velocities, and if I can just find the exact sample I like on a key, perfect.


But its exactly the same as a fixed velocity level. Want the exact sample of vel=100? Move it to vel=100. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 3, 2021)

well this library will be out before there's a 100 page thread about it lol 😂


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## Toecutter (Jun 3, 2021)

karender said:


> Is this real? I mean these guys announce the announcement and then slowly build-up to the release. Now they are suddenly releasing a library with a AAA Hollywood composer name on it? Out of nowhere?


Yea I think something went very wrong... Tom also likes to post teasers on his youtube channel, create hype, go back and forth with the community. Big name, big release, they are understandably going to milk it as much as possible. Not this time tho, I almost feel bad for them (but my curiosity and anxiety couldn't care less lol)


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## Alex Niedt (Jun 3, 2021)

FireGS said:


> But its exactly the same as a fixed velocity level. Want the exact sample of vel=100? Move it to vel=100. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I'd rather play through the samples on keys than try to nail velocities. I can more precisely find the feel I want to achieve, and it's more intuitive for me, creatively. And like I said, I don't like to think in terms of what sound is at what number. That's not how my brain operates. It's more likely to remember which sound exists at which key.


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## FireGS (Jun 3, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> I'd rather play through the samples on keys than try to nail velocities. I can more precisely find the feel I want to achieve, and it's more intuitive for me, creatively. And like I said, I don't like to think in terms of what sound is at what number. That's not how my brain operates. It's more likely to remember which sound exists at which key.


Fair enough 

Personally, it seems that something unpitched like a drum that works (in the real world) on levels of hardness rather than pitch is more suited to something like a velocity layer. That's not only how it works in real life, but also in my mind. I'd rather tap harder or softer on a single key (like a single drum head) and have the realistic feedback of harder struck = louder sound, and softer struck = softer sound.

But hey, to each their own! If they don't offer it like that, though, and force a user to use the spread method, that's not great.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2021)

FireGS said:


> After watching him do it, I really dont see how this is a better method than a single key and velocity layers. Percussion is typically measured by how hard you hit it, and MIDI velocity is designed to be a good way of doing this.
> 
> And there's 127 possible values, too. So....? How is this better?


I found it's way easier to jam and get creative. I always hated the one note with velocity layers on one key approach. But, both are valid.


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## Peter Satera (Jun 3, 2021)

I personally prefer the individual velocities across the keyboard, this means you can play the loudest sound quiet, and the quietest sound loud.


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## jcrosby (Jun 3, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Interesting that the collab seems to be a reoccurring thing.
> Wondering if they might do anything else (Synths? Dunno)
> 
> 299 Euro regular, 199 intro drum lib. Pretty cheap for OT standards


Someone discovered the same week they originally announced JXLB that the domains jxlpercussion.com and jxlstrings were taken. It appears the domains are hosted in Germany as well, and both pages are still registered.

Interestingly when you go to the url jxlpercussion.com it redirects you to OT's site.  (Guessing the jxlperc link will eventually be a redirect as well)...

So I think it's a pretty safe bet that at some point we'll see something like JXL Strings...



http://jxlpercussion.com




http://jxlstrings.com/


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## jcrosby (Jun 3, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Can we take a moment discuss OT'S error messages?


Like JXLB and the Arks they're epic!


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## jcrosby (Jun 3, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Yes, but most keyboards have a max of 88 keys so this will be interesting.


I'd be surprised if they don't include an RR patch as well.


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## Getsumen (Jun 3, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Someone discovered the same week they originally announced JXLB that the domains jxlpercussion.com and jxlstrings were taken. It appears the domains are hosted in Germany as well, and both pages are still registered.
> 
> Interestingly when you go to the url jxlpercussion.com it redirects you to OT's site.  (Guessing the jxlperc link will eventually be a redirect as well)...
> 
> ...


Ooh interesting JXL strings I didn't expect. Curious to see how that one turns out.


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## KEM (Jun 3, 2021)

Sooooo this is real then…?


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## NoamL (Jun 3, 2021)

The problem with LAMP's keymapping is that they aren't chromatically mapped (at least the original version, I haven't downloaded this year's update yet so I dunno if they fixed it). I use the velocity sensitive patches.

Looking forward to hearing if JXLP's keymapping is chromatic.


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 3, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> What's the problem? They *are *bundling Junkie Brass and Percussion at a discounted price, hence my question. Get off your high horse for once, you are always bossing people around here, "unbelievable"



Who's bossing who? There was nothing bossy about what I said, sorry.



lettucehat said:


> I can't believe you would ask for further information about the product.


Oh, c'mon. Sure you can ask about the product. That's one of the reasons this forum is here. Although OT probably won't answer just yet, asking about the product is of course ok. But _that_??


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## charlieclouser (Jun 3, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> Feels more precise and intuitive, to me. I don't like fiddling with velocities, and if I can just find the exact sample I like on a key, perfect. If I decide to change that note/velocity later, I'd prefer to just drag the MIDI data on that key to another key rather than think in terms of numeric adjustments. It's all personal preference.


There's a few reasons I don't use dynamics > chromatic mapping like JXL explains in some of his videos, and like what's in a few of the LAMP patches:

- That sort of mapping uses an entire MIDI channel for a single drum, which would occupy only one (or two, or three) KEYS in a conventional mapping scheme. So my drum maps have about 80x the density of what could be accomplished in chromatic mode. A single MIDI channel gives me a smorgasbord of 88 different examples of whatever drum we're talking about in a menu-style patch. I vastly prefer this method. One instrument vs 88 one-drum instruments? It's no contest for me.

- Chromatic mode makes it much more difficult for me to play a realistic part in real time, whether from the keyboard, an MPC pad grid, or a drum kit / pad setup. My hands still work pretty well, so I can play dynamically and get pretty close to what I want in a single pass with a conventional velocity > dynamics mapping.

- In the case of LAMP anyway, the maps that contain a ton of dynamic layers spread out chromatically kind of make you forget that there aren't any round-robins. Yes, you have precise control over what sample you'll hear at any point, but if you want non-machine-gunning performances you've got to manually create the effect of a round-robin by moving some hits to adjacent MIDI notes, and hope that you've got enough examples of the desired dynamic level to get what you want to hear.

- If you have more complex articulations, like you would with a tabla or darbuka, where there are center hits, edge hits, rim hits, flams, etc. then each of those different hits winds up on a different MIDI channel / track. This makes it impossible to just play a tricky, realistic part in one pass. I map those sort of things with center hits at the bottom of the range, moving to edge hits at the top, and with rims / flams / rolls / etc. on black keys - and I have TONS of sample sets mapped this way. I can just pull one up and jam out, and get a pretty realistic-sounding performance in one pass that requires minimal editing down the road. Putting each of those articulations on a different MIDI channel would increase my channel count by a huge amount, and make it impossible to just jam out in real time. 

I do understand why some folks like that method, but to me it seems more suited to "programming" a drum part rather than "playing" a drum part. It might be easier for those who prefer to drag notes around the piano roll in order to create a drum part, but at the expense of most of the real-time playability.

Not a fan.


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## sopwith (Jun 3, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> - In the case of LAMP anyway, the maps that contain a ton of dynamic layers spread out chromatically kind of make you forget that there aren't any round-robins. Yes, you have precise control over what sample you'll hear at any point, but if you want non-machine-gunning performances you've got to manually create the effect of a round-robin by moving some hits to adjacent MIDI notes, and hope that you've got enough examples of the desired dynamic level to get what you want to hear.



Although I dig the results JXL gets with his chromatic method, this is a great point; there's quite a bit of manual note shuffling in his video to get to the unique end result.

I wonder if chucking these patches into a Live drum rack and then using a Maxforlive device which randomizes note values slightly would come in handy to remove all this manual shuffling which is shown in JXL's video.


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## turnerofwheels (Jun 3, 2021)

I kind of like the hybrid approach that Strikeforce went with--dynamic mappings and round robins, together at last. Sometimes it's nice to layer multiple dynamics and this approach makes that easier.

Anyway we'll see once this gets announced if they don't have a standard ensemble patch.. 

Perfect timing for me, I was just looking around at percussion the past couple weeks to fill in some gaps in my library. (So far humming and hawwing over the HY sale and the new Strezov offering that silently dropped 2 weeks ago and is still on sale...)


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## Zedcars (Jun 3, 2021)

It should be possible in Cubase to set up the Logical Editor/Input Transformer to convert the 100 notes into different velocities on one note. Not in front of Cubase at the moment so can’t try it until later.


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## wlinart (Jun 3, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> @OrchestralTools will there be any crossgrade offer for owners of Junkie XL Brass?


Knowing them, probably there's a discount on the bundle if you own one of the products. That's how it works with the metropolis ark bundle for example


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## jcrosby (Jun 3, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Ooh interesting JXL strings I didn't expect. Curious to see how that one turns out.


Ultimately who knows.... but given that OT’s 2-for-2 it’s a safe assumption... Just not one worth tossing questions at them about. They kept quiet about this for basically 2 years... If something akin to JXL Strings is in the works - (even if months out) - none of us will know for sure until announced....

(I ain’t sweatin it while I wait. though. It certainly does seem like a no brainer to close out the whole series.....)


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## jcrosby (Jun 3, 2021)

NoamL said:


> The problem with LAMP's keymapping is that they aren't chromatically mapped (at least the original version, I haven't downloaded this year's update yet so I dunno if they fixed it). I use the velocity sensitive patches.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing if JXLP's keymapping is chromatic.


I hope so too!


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## jononotbono (Jun 3, 2021)

Ah this is exciting! Love percussion libraries. I also hope they give both options for the mappings. I don’t mind dynamic mappings but I prefer velocity. Actually the only time I prefer dynamic over velocity is when I’m using a keyboard controller that completely sucks. Like my current one that is weighted and has no way of changing velocity response. Honestly, I’d need to use a dirty lump hammer and smash it down on the keys to get maximum velocity out of it. It’s extremely playable. 😂


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## KEM (Jun 3, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Ooh interesting JXL strings I didn't expect. Curious to see how that one turns out.


That’s the one I want more than anything!!


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## borisb2 (Jun 3, 2021)

KEM said:


> That’s the one I want more than anything!!


hopefully JXL strings won't have a chromatic dynamic mapping .. would like to rather play the parts in


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## Fry777 (Jun 3, 2021)

Wasn't the development of JXL strings kind of implied in the JXL brass teaser video, a couple of years ago ?
I remember a section where OT said they originally approached Tom to do a string library, but they ended up doing the brass first. Also the domain jxlstrings was already registered then. Good news if this all goes ahead  JXL strings could be what people first imagined Hans Zimmer strings was going to be


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## constaneum (Jun 3, 2021)

Fry777 said:


> Wasn't the development of JXL strings kind of implied in the JXL brass teaser video, a couple of years ago ?
> I remember a section where OT said they originally approached Tom to do a string library, but they ended up doing the brass first. Also the domain jxlstrings was already registered then. Good news of this all goes ahead  JXL strings could be what people first imagined Hans Zimmer strings was going to be


i wont be surprised if JXL strings to be release end of this year or early 2022.


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## jcrosby (Jun 3, 2021)

Fry777 said:


> Also the domain jxlstrings was already registered then.


That's exactly what I said and exactly my point... Add in what you've mentioned in your post and it seems like a reasonable conclusion; it's been more or less implied that, at some point, the answer to JXLB would be JXLS.

(In the meantime JXLP's AOK with me!!!!) _I just want to bang on the drum all day_


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## Zedcars (Jun 4, 2021)

Looking forward to some tasty 100 dynamic layers of cowbell to rock out with!


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## Snarf (Jun 4, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Depends. If you programmed a robot to strike a drum head at 100 different levels of force, its not the same as 10x10. If there's a measurable difference, I'd argue that its truly 100 dynamic layers with no RR. RR's should be 10 different recordings of the same level of force. In theory.


I was talking about the amount of GB's. In terms of sound differences you are right of course.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 4, 2021)

NoamL said:


> The problem with LAMP's keymapping is that they aren't chromatically mapped (at least the original version, I haven't downloaded this year's update yet so I dunno if they fixed it). I use the velocity sensitive patches.


yeah, that's a downer for sure and no they haven't fixed it. I'm pretty sure that OT will give us something that's a bit more practical. They must have considered all the critique AudioOlli got for the chromatic mapping. We, at least I hope so


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jun 4, 2021)

Well, this would be a very weird choice from OT if they didn't provide a velocity sensitive option, like Audio Ollie did in Lamp.


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## jamwerks (Jun 4, 2021)

Imo, velocity sensitive works best, but it would be nice to know globally the break-points between layers.


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## Peter Satera (Jun 4, 2021)

I agree with Charlie, that it's not straight forward, like we gain from percussion menus. Lamp, luckily has RR and spread along the keyboard in the same patch. The main problem with LAMP is the lack of them, and they're only placed on white keys. This is where LAMP is a little frustrating, as it's time consuming to shift them up and down, you can't quickly select and shift semi-tone up or down. I find these patches though do favour programming but it suits my 'sculpting' taste to creating big percussion. They aren't bad with light penguin playing though. It also may place it on a single midi, but that one instrument, the usage is minuscule.

I personally have a few bespoke percussion ensemble, my main one, Titan (people ask me what I'm using on tracks, and it's this). It spreads from C2 all the way to C7, using every key. And it's only 7mb. I find it very usable and can produce rolls quite easily. What I find most of all is the drum is consistent. Like asking 4 people to hit, then 12, the sound changes, but you don't always want the volume to go completely out of control. It also means you can have a big low end with big volume, but when you take it up the scale it hits more crack. The benefit, also, is that if I do want to hit a machine gun effect, but with some small variation I can circle the same 3 or 5 samples around that region. So, it'll stay varied but similar.

I rebuilt some others, the JXL Perc loops (3mb ensemble) were turned into a lib, Lamp ensembles were rebuilt (4mb). You can hear these things layered at the end. So I'm very used to the workflow, and have come to prefer it, it's extremely light on resources. I think either way though, OT are smart enough to know it's bound to come down to personal preference.

Did this quickly to show it in action.


(No prizes to those that guess the familiar loop, layering the three I mentioned.  ). This is why I'd love to see it.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jun 4, 2021)

Sorry for the slight off-topic, but speaking of LA Modern Percussion, I got it recently and thought building multis was a great way to add a variety of round robins to the drums that use the "Dynamic hits" method vs the traditional ones. Adding a few solo drums on top of an ensemble, and/or adding one "traditional", and then play with the Looseness control makes a huge difference.

The dynamic hits can work great on their own, with careful programming, but Multis are where the library really comes to life imho.


----------



## axb312 (Jun 4, 2021)

Exciting stuff


----------



## Drundfunk (Jun 4, 2021)

Kinda weird for OT to release something without pre-order pricing. Maybe this whole thing is an out-of-season April fools joke


----------



## jamwerks (Jun 4, 2021)

Sine probably couldn't handle it yet, but some midi would be awesome!


----------



## Soundbed (Jun 4, 2021)

Many of the questions / speculations in this thread are answered in the press release on Gearspace 

Yes the package will include drums used in Mad Max, which is what the video that was posted demonstrated iirc.

there will also be “playable” dynamics mappings from drum pads — “The library also includes a custom patch that maps directly to a plethora of electronic drum kits, samplers, and pad controllers from brands like Roland, Alesis, and more. The end result is that Tom Holkenborg’s Percussion functions as a full-fledged playable instrument, enabling users to compose, perform or even just jam” — although it doesn’t clarify if there will be any two key velocity based maps like the two types LAMP included.

yes there’s a brass bundle

I never got used to the LAMP “white keys” mapping. But I’d be willing to try again with true chromatic mapping. (Mapping only white keys defeats the chromatic transposition technique.) For now I enjoy LAMP’s two keys ‘split’ patches, where the dynamic layers are arranged with all the even dynamic hits on one key and odd on the other key; so if you play alternating keys you won’t machine gun.

I never minded using velocity to adjust which sample gets triggered but it depends on my DAW. Some DAWs are more finicky with mouse/cursor placement than others. It’s far more fatiguing to adjust velocities for me in Studio One than it was in ProTools for instance. The mouse needs to be slightly further “left” than I want it to be in S1.


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## turnerofwheels (Jun 4, 2021)

It also says "up to 100" dynamic layers.

"Up to" is a careful bit of phrasing used in press/marketing releases countless times by now. It means there is at least one patch with that many layers. There might only be one patch like that, or two, with no indication how it's mapped

I'm going to assume there aren't more layers dynamically mapped than there are keys on a keyboard for now


----------



## RonOrchComp (Jun 4, 2021)

SHANE TURNER said:


> It also says "up to 100" dynamic layers.
> 
> "Up to" is a careful bit of phrasing used in press/marketing releases countless times by now. It means there is at least one patch with that many layers. There might only be one patch like that, or two, with no indication how it's mapped


Ha ha

Could you imagine 40 patches - 1 patch with 100 layers, and 39 patches with 3-4 layers... LOL


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## gamma-ut (Jun 4, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I never got used to the LAMP “white keys” mapping. But I’d be willing to try again with true chromatic mapping.


White-key mapping is also a bit of a PITA with a controller like the Linnstrument - and the Linnstrument makes a pretty good finger-drumming controller, among other things.


----------



## José Herring (Jun 4, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I agree with Charlie, that it's not straight forward, like we gain from percussion menus. Lamp, luckily has RR and spread along the keyboard in the same patch. The main problem with LAMP is the lack of them, and they're only placed on white keys. This is where LAMP is a little frustrating, as it's time consuming to shift them up and down, you can't quickly select and shift semi-tone up or down. I find these patches though do favour programming but it suits my 'sculpting' taste to creating big percussion. They aren't bad with light penguin playing though. It also may place it on a single midi, but that one instrument, the usage is minuscule.
> 
> I personally have a few bespoke percussion ensemble, my main one, Titan (people ask me what I'm using on tracks, and it's this). It spreads from C2 all the way to C7, using every key. And it's only 7mb. I find it very usable and can produce rolls quite easily. What I find most of all is the drum is consistent. Like asking 4 people to hit, then 12, the sound changes, but you don't always want the volume to go completely out of control. It also means you can have a big low end with big volume, but when you take it up the scale it hits more crack. The benefit, also, is that if I do want to hit a machine gun effect, but with some small variation I can circle the same 3 or 5 samples around that region. So, it'll stay varied but similar.
> 
> ...



Curious to find out what you used to rebuild LAMP. I find the library it's current form to sound fantastic but hardly usable. Lack of dynamic layers is the real downfall of this library. If you map across the keys you need to have A LOT of dynamic layers.


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## Jack Weaver (Jun 4, 2021)

*In Logic *_>Piano Roll>Scale Quantize>C Major>then Tools>Brush Tool_

Then you are able to 'paint' with the Brush Tool only the white keys. This somewhat takes the sting out of white key-only programming. 

But yes, simply being chromatic in the first place is greatly easier. It would be greatly appreciated if LAMP did this. It would also be appreciated if Tom Holkenborg Percussion and LAMP had some metal hand perc and cymbals included. Drums are nice but having more of the total percussive gamut is really key to making great perc tracks. I am happy that LAMP has built-in sequencing capability and good multis. 

.


----------



## charlieclouser (Jun 4, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> The main problem with LAMP is the lack of them, and they're only placed on white keys. This is where LAMP is a little frustrating, as it's time consuming to shift them up and down, you can't quickly select and shift semi-tone up or down.


There is a special level of hell reserved for those developers who create maps that only use white keys. What kind of neanderthals are they catering to? Beasts who thump away at the keyboard with their cloven hooves?


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## babylonwaves (Jun 4, 2021)

Jack Weaver said:


> Then you are able to 'paint' with the Brush Tool only the white keys. This somewhat takes the sting out of white key-only programming.


once you start editing, it doesn't. normally you lasso the notes and change the velocity. here, you would transpose but of course this way, some notes end on black keys which make no sound at all. it's such a stupid idea.


----------



## NoamL (Jun 4, 2021)

Haha I wouldn't go that far Charlie but yes I did bring it up with them when they first released it. It makes it difficult to move things up and down. I am more of a "program perc" guy than a "MIDI drum pads" guy though.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 4, 2021)

NoamL said:


> Haha I wouldn't go that far Charlie but yes I did bring it up with them when they first released it. It makes it difficult to move things up and down. I am more of a "program perc" guy than a "MIDI drum pads" guy though.


I did too, did you get an answer?


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## OrchestralTools (Jun 4, 2021)

Just leaving this here...


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## Zedcars (Jun 4, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Just leaving this here...



I’m calling it…it’s a percussion library…


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## Jack Weaver (Jun 4, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> once you start editing, it doesn't. normally you lasso the notes and change the velocity. here, you would transpose but of course this way, some notes end on black keys which make no sound at all. it's such a stupid idea.


All you have to do is highlight your transposed notes (via the Brush Tools & Scale Quantize method) and once again hit Scale Quantize - and since you're already in C Major all the notes automatically re-adapt to the White Keys.

Like I said it's not optimal but it is EZ PZ.

.


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## KEM (Jun 4, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Just leaving this here...



I’m in


----------



## Peter Satera (Jun 4, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Curious to find out what you used to rebuild LAMP. I find the library it's current form to sound fantastic but hardly usable. Lack of dynamic layers is the real downfall of this library. If you map across the keys you need to have A LOT of dynamic layers.


Nothing really sophisticated José. My approach changes depending on the library. The aim is always the same though, to get the quietest dynamic to the loudest, then "nomalise" them all. 

1. Here's how I'd do it with LAMP, I'll take a drum, play the individual samples. The ones laid out individually, per drum (when combining mics), there's only like 20 of them, per drum. The velocity remains consistent in this example (other libs, this may go from quiet to loud to trigger the lower dynamic, on some cases libs you can disable the RRs it will use. Therefore I disable all but one, and just go around them.)





The issue here is LAMP also incorporates volume, which sort of makes the layout redundant, the quiet hits are always quiet, no matter the velocity, it's not entirely the way JXL sets it up. Which is why I'm doing this as the way I prefer is the quiets are also playable, loud (HZ Percussion Pro also incorporated this in the update). I'll put this down to a tempo of like 10bpm. That gives time for the drum tail to hit silence. On other libs, you may need bigger spacing, or slower tempo.

2. Consolidate / export as one, and it'll be something like this.




At this stage, I'd chop it up, either by using the markers or using some sort of automation cutter, or just quickly cut, snapping to the grid. There's only 20.

3. Now, I normalise the individual samples, then I'll go through them, and rearrange if I feel the intensity increase isn't really in order. Sometimes they sound stronger at lower dynamics, and it can be that some switching around is in order. The way I find this works if I quickly jump back and forth between the transients. A-B'ing them, so to speak. 





This is important, as when you export them in this order you want it to be consistent as much as possible, feeling that it's getting louder. Then, treat any problems you hear in the sample. There's high end hiss on some of LAMPS's quiet hits. Some automated High cut can sort that out, coming in instantly after the transient.

4. Once you've done that, export them all individually, make sure there's a touch of headroom, and that it isn't hitting 0db. Make a kontakt instrument, bring them all in. One per key. Then make sure there's enough release on it, or, keep it short if you want to use your sustained notes to determine how long they last for.






Save the instrument, done!

I don't typically do this for single percussion instruments. I started doing this when I was layering loads of drums and my system was taking a hammering. But to be honest, I've found it really enjoyable and at the end of it it, you have something bespoke, control and a sound nobody else has. I've made some fun sounding ensembles. "Jumanji Drums", "90s Percussion", layered sounds that create an instant vibe.


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## KEM (Jun 4, 2021)

Junkie just posted the teaser as well, I gotta say this has all come as a complete surprise to me, the JXL Brass announcement to release took forever, this is only a few days!! Can’t complain though, I’ll be buying it as soon as it’s available


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## Niv Schrieber (Jun 4, 2021)

Wow I guess now jxl strings is pretty much a thing that is going to happen for sure at some point. Can't wait for that!


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## KEM (Jun 4, 2021)

Niv Schrieber said:


> Wow I guess now jxl strings is pretty much a thing that is going to happen for sure at some point. Can't wait for that!


Me either, that’s gonna be an instant buy for me!!


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## Evans (Jun 4, 2021)

Today would be better for me. Thanks!


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## Soundbed (Jun 4, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Just leaving this here...



@OrchestralTools I got you a card.


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## D Halgren (Jun 4, 2021)

Holkenborg, formerly known as Junkie XL, is a former industrial noise producer

Did I miss part of his career? Was he opening up for Godflesh at one time?


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## givemenoughrope (Jun 4, 2021)

Am I the only one who found that video where he sampled his own percussion and used the samples as final product as opposed to a mockup really strange? And we wonder why media music and samples sound so dead/flat these days.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 4, 2021)

Tom Holkenborg's Percussion—single instruments now available!







vi-control.net


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## jcrosby (Jun 4, 2021)

Drundfunk said:


> Kinda weird for OT to release something without pre-order pricing. Maybe this whole thing is an out-of-season April fools joke


The 1st post of this thread links to an announcement on GS with the pricing right there for all to see. 199 euros intro, 299 euros thereafter. All of the basic details, including package prices are in there.


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## gamma-ut (Jun 4, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> The 1st post of this thread links to an announcement on GS with the pricing right there for all to see. 199 euros intro, 299 euros thereafter. All of the basic details, including package prices are in there.


I was going to reply along the same lines earlier, but noticed Drundfunk specified pre-order pricing (like Talinn), whereas this one seems to be popping straight out - unless it turns out Gearspace bust the embargo on the press release for a pre-order announcement.


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## jcrosby (Jun 4, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> I was going to reply along the same lines earlier, but noticed Drundfunk specified pre-order pricing (like Talinn), whereas this one seems to be popping straight out - unless it turns out Gearspace bust the embargo on the press release for a pre-order announcement.


I'm assuming sure June 9 will be the pre-order date. Maybe it will be ready to drop that day, or maybe that's the date they've set to begin pre-order.... 

I thought the same thing but the press on GS does say something like _beginning June 9th_ so it was definitely intended to be visible before the 9th. Why it would be announced early there but not here however is a head scratcher... Somehow I doubt that GS has a higher number of OT users than VI-C


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## DovesGoWest (Jun 4, 2021)

Nobody seems to have pointed out how he has decided to rebrand and drop the JunkieXL name. So all those domains with with jxl in them are pointless. JXL brass is rebranding to Holkenberg brass

I wonder if this will prompt Hans to potentially look at releasing some of his private libraries


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## gamma-ut (Jun 4, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> I'm assuming sure June 9 will be the pre-order date. Maybe it will be ready to drop that day, or maybe that's the date they've set to begin pre-order....
> 
> I thought the same thing but the press on GS does say something like _beginning June 9th_ so it was definitely intended to be visible before the 9th. Why it would be announced early there but not here however is a head scratcher... Somehow I doubt that GS has a higher number of OT users than VI-C


My guess is that the embargo was set for Monday or Tuesday next week, so the press stories would appear just before the product (or presale) goes live. I’m assuming OT’s PR messed up by emailing out embargoed press releases unsolicited and GS just took it and ran it without looking at the release date. As GS just runs the releases verbatim there’s no real benefit in sending them releases under embargo vs Sound On Sound and other magazines who might put some effort into publishing it.


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## Consona (Jun 4, 2021)

@Niv Schrieber @KEM What do you expect from JXL strings?


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## lettucehat (Jun 4, 2021)

DovesGoWest said:


> Nobody seems to have pointed out how he has decided to rebrand and drop the JunkieXL name. So all those domains with with jxl in them are pointless. JXL brass is rebranding to Holkenberg brass
> 
> I wonder if this will prompt Hans to potentially look at releasing some of his private libraries


Well you definitely don't want somebody else owning them even if you're releasing the snappily-titled "Tom Holkenborg Strings"!


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## KEM (Jun 5, 2021)

Consona said:


> @Niv Schrieber @KEM What do you expect from JXL strings?


Probably what everyone thought HZ Strings was gonna be lol

Just kidding, in all seriousness I just want it to be a string library with as much detail taken into consideration as JXL Brass, I still swear by that library and I haven’t even so much as taken a look at another brass library since buying it. If they can do the same thing with strings then I have no doubt it’ll be main library going forward, Junkie has shown time and time again just how much he really cares about and really believes in these libraries, and if the string library is held up to that same standard I think we’ll be in for something great!!


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## holywilly (Jun 5, 2021)

I wish JXL Percussions will be available on June 9th, I need it for my current job.


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## Drundfunk (Jun 5, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> The 1st post of this thread links to an announcement on GS with the pricing right there for all to see. 199 euros intro, 299 euros thereafter. All of the basic details, including package prices are in there.


Yes, I know that. I read it. But my point was that there is no PRE-ORDER price, which is usually a thing Orchestral Tools does, hence my comment. Now that OT commented in this thread and posted a teaser trailer, my comment is redundant anyway (at the same time my comment shouldn't have been taken seriously in the first place since it was clearly a joke. That's why the last sentence of my comment is a meme itself....).


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 5, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I wish JXL Percussions will be available on June 9th, I need it for my current job.


But you have no idea what will be in it. How do you know you need it for your current job?


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## holywilly (Jun 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> But you have no idea what will be in it. How do you know you need it for your current job?


Because the percussion sound from the teaser is what I’m always dying for, and I’m now working on an epic trailer album. Plus I’m a huge OT fan boy.


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2021)




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## ridgero (Jun 5, 2021)

I'm getting pretty tired of this "new" stuff. Huge marketing, but in the end its always the same:

Nothing new, nothing special - but very expensive.

You always buy a pig in a poke, no rights to return, can't support such companies anymore.


----------



## axb312 (Jun 5, 2021)

ridgero said:


> I'm getting pretty tired of this "new" stuff. Huge marketing, but in the end its always the same:
> 
> Nothing new, nothing special - but very expensive.
> 
> You always buy a pig in a poke, no rights to return, can't support such companies anymore.


OT rarely if ever skimps on quality. As in, their stuff generally sounds good.

But yes, I admit a lot of sample libraries are really expensive and generally out of reach and can understand your frustration.

However, JXL does awesome drums, so this library could be great. Worth feeling excited and listening to the demos and seeing the price tag and then just forgetting about it anyway


----------



## Toecutter (Jun 5, 2021)

ridgero said:


> Nothing new, nothing special - but very expensive.


I get what you are saying and Junkie Perc isn't exactly "new" but you will have access to the same samples used in huge blockbusters and this is pretty special imo $199 is a crazy good deal if you ask me


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## KEM (Jun 5, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I get what you are saying and Junkie Perc isn't exactly "new" but you will have access to the same samples used in huge blockbusters and this is pretty special imo $199 is a crazy good deal if you ask me


And given that JXL Brass is like $800 (and totally worth it, in my opinion) I think this is definitely a steal!!


----------



## Drumdude2112 (Jun 5, 2021)

Does 299 (regular price) seem at bit 'low' especially for an OT library ?
I mean HZ perc pro is what 600 bucks ?
Would that point to this library being limited in content perhaps ?
(not a complaint by any means just an observation that a percussion library of an a-list hollywood composer is priced so low )


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## Getsumen (Jun 5, 2021)

Drumdude2112 said:


> Does 299 (regular price) seem at bit 'low' especially for an OT library ?
> I mean HZ perc pro is what 600 bucks ?
> Would that point to this library being limited in content perhaps ?
> (not a complaint by any means just an observation that a percussion library of an a-list hollywood composer is priced so low )


It's not full orchestral perc. It's more in line with the epic drums that Tom uses. So stuff like Toms, Custom Drums, Snares, etc.

Quote

'The collection includes orchestral and marching drums, unusual toms, and custom-built drums"


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## Jacob Fanto (Jun 5, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> It's not full orchestral perc. It's more in line with the epic drums that Tom uses. So stuff like Toms, Custom Drums, Snares, etc.
> 
> Quote
> 
> 'The collection includes orchestral and marching drums, unusual toms, and custom-built drums"


To be fair, HZ perc isn’t full orchestral perc either.


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## Composer 2021 (Jun 5, 2021)

At least it will sound good as a sample library. JXL purposely mixes his real orchestral recordings to sound like samples. So, his sample libraries sound more realistic than his actual recordings.


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## Uiroo (Jun 5, 2021)

Yes yes, for 199$ it is a steal, a no-brainer as they say! Best purchase I'll ever have made, I can only recommend it honestly. Definitely worth the price, already deinstalled all my other percussion libraries because its THAT GOOD. Can't wait to get a copy!


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## jneebz (Jun 5, 2021)

Uiroo said:


> Yes yes, for 199$ it is a steal, a no-brainer as they say! Best purchase I'll ever have made, I can only recommend it honestly. Definitely worth the price, already deinstalled all my other percussion libraries because its THAT GOOD.


Wait....what? So you’re a demo writer with a copy of the library?


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 5, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> To be fair, HZ perc isn’t full orchestral perc either.


exactly my point


----------



## Uiroo (Jun 5, 2021)

jneebz said:


> Wait....what? So you’re a demo writer with a copy of the library?


I edited it to make the joke a bit more obvious.


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2021)

Is JXL Perc. expected to offer more of a mixed perc. instruments from around the world (Taikos, various Hand Drums, Toms, ..etc) for Epic tracks ? or more of a traditional orchestral perc. library ? 

i.e. I'm guessing more likely the former.


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## Getsumen (Jun 5, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> To be fair, HZ perc isn’t full orchestral perc either.


True but it has taikos buckets and various other things

and also I assume they can just charge more for the Zimmer name + Studio name



muziksculp said:


> Is JXL Perc. expected to offer more of a mixed perc. instruments from around the world (Taikos, various Hand Drums, Toms, ..etc) for Epic tracks ? or more of a traditional orchestral perc. library ?
> 
> i.e. I'm guessing more likely the former.





Getsumen said:


> "The collection includes orchestral and marching drums, unusual toms, and custom-built drums"


per the article linked


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 5, 2021)

Drumdude2112 said:


> Does 299 (regular price) seem at bit 'low' especially for an OT library ?
> I mean HZ perc pro is what 600 bucks ?
> Would that point to this library being limited in content perhaps ?
> (not a complaint by any means just an observation that a percussion library of an a-list hollywood composer is priced so low )


That’s why I think it is just repackaged stuff Tom already had and OT is just distributing it. Would save the cost of recording and editing sessions.


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## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> I posted the list a while back but iirc drums, toms, and custom drum creations


Thanks. Now I have to go fishing for it 

Did they release the list ? how did you obtain it ?


----------



## Getsumen (Jun 5, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks. Now I have to go fishing for it


Yeah I edited it right as I posted because I realized "a while back" was like 2 posts up lol





Anyway according to the article it's a select list of percussion


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 5, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Yeah I edited it right as I posted because I realized "a while back" was like 2 posts up lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. That was very helpful, I'm no good at trying to find things. 

Exactly what I was expecting from JXL Perc. to contain.

Looking forward to its release.


----------



## Drumdude2112 (Jun 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That’s why I think it is just repackaged stuff Tom already had and OT is just distributing it. Would save the cost of recording and editing sessions.


That sounds about right to me given the price point.
Look forward to hearing it 👍🏻


----------



## jcrosby (Jun 5, 2021)

D Halgren said:


> Holkenborg, formerly known as Junkie XL, is a former industrial noise producer
> 
> Did I miss part of his career? Was he opening up for Godflesh at one time?


What you haven't heard his box set _Junkie XL:_ _The Goth Years?_


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Jun 5, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I get what you are saying and Junkie Perc isn't exactly "new" but you will have access to the same samples used in huge blockbusters and this is pretty special imo $199 is a crazy good deal if you ask me


Nothing special 

Not like you're going to score anything major like a triple A title with those. 

/Sarcasm


----------



## NoamL (Jun 5, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Nothing really sophisticated José. My approach changes depending on the library. The aim is always the same though, to get the quietest dynamic to the loudest, then "nomalise" them all.
> 
> 1. Here's how I'd do it with LAMP, I'll take a drum, play the individual samples. The ones laid out individually, per drum (when combining mics), there's only like 20 of them, per drum. The velocity remains consistent in this example (other libs, this may go from quiet to loud to trigger the lower dynamic, on some cases libs you can disable the RRs it will use. Therefore I disable all but one, and just go around them.)
> 
> ...



Eh to each their own but I'm surprised people like this approach. Not trying to start a flamewar but just imagine recording some real live percussionists doing grooves in a great room like SONY or Abbey and then trying to retrospectively apply this sort of processing on a per-hit basis onto their live performances. You couldn't do it and even if you could I'm not sure that destroying the peak-vs-peak dynamic range wouldn't suck out the life from the performance. Any time I get away from working with music how musicians would do it I get super suspicious that I'm going down the wrong path. The video you posted sounded really machinegunny to me. BTW this approach is also why you're getting "hiss on the soft hits" because you're arbitrarily raising the noise floor on some of your samples.


----------



## holywilly (Jun 5, 2021)

ridgero said:


> I'm getting pretty tired of this "new" stuff. Huge marketing, but in the end its always the same:
> 
> Nothing new, nothing special - but very expensive.
> 
> You always buy a pig in a poke, no rights to return, can't support such companies anymore.


Sample libraries are technology, and the M1 iPad is still an iPad.


----------



## prodigalson (Jun 5, 2021)

Sorry if I missed this but couldn't find it anywhere...where is it recorded?


----------



## Toecutter (Jun 5, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> Sorry if I missed this but couldn't find it anywhere...where is it recorded?


That's a good question, I think OT is only distributing the samples?


----------



## jneebz (Jun 5, 2021)

ha, sorry! Geez, me missing sarcasm is pretty rare...


----------



## Peter Satera (Jun 5, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That’s why I think it is just repackaged stuff Tom already had and OT is just distributing it. Would save the cost of recording and editing sessions.


I'd think this is what people are likely to want though. The samples he's actually using to get the sound he's renown for. As much as I like HZ Strings, from buying Striiings, there's way more in his arsenal. It won't be his sound entirely though, as Tom uses a lot of spitfire perc, project sam hits, etc. You can see this in his template, and a contributor to whats in his scores. OT could recreate it though to give us something nearly identical.



NoamL said:


> Eh to each their own but I'm surprised people like this approach. Not trying to start a flamewar but just imagine recording some real live percussionists doing grooves in a great room like SONY or Abbey and then trying to retrospectively apply this sort of processing on a per-hit basis onto their live performances. You couldn't do it and even if you could I'm not sure that destroying the peak-vs-peak dynamic range wouldn't suck out the life from the performance. Any time I get away from working with music how musicians would do it I get super suspicious that I'm going down the wrong path. The video you posted sounded really machinegunny to me. BTW this approach is also why you're getting "hiss on the soft hits" because you're arbitrarily raising the noise floor on some of your samples.


Where to start...
1. This is obviously a hyped hybrid ensemble. Machine gunny for trailer music, it doesn't need to be. It's not meant to represent a 'live percussionist in Abbey Road'. Nor does JXL Perc sound like that.
2. I'm not asking you to adopt it, I was asked how _I_ was doing it. Music and creativity is about experimentation too. Not limitation ruled by imitation.
3. The reason why it has hiss is because it's LAMP. It's recorded like that.
4. Just because it's arbitrary to you, doesn't mean it is. JXL uses the exact same method and to an extent so has Hans, he's said he uses the quiet drums Loud, as it produces big booms. It was also discussed in the HZ Perc Pro update, which has the same feature to raise the sample volume to play quiet drums loud, by changing the response.

_"RESPONSE - CC#18 We record many dynamic layers for the hits and techniques and by default these will vary from very quiet to incredibly loud as you increase the velocity/dynamics. Reducing the response to zero will reduce the dynamic range, meaning the soft hits will be as loud as the hard hits."_

Btw, I don't suddenly take all my drums and do it like this. I still use percussion the normal way. I have a few ensembles, thats it.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 5, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I'd think this is what people are likely to want though. The samples he's actually using to get the sound he's renown for. As much as I like HZ Strings, from buying Striiings, there's way more in his arsenal. It won't be his sound entirely though, as Tom uses a lot of spitfire perc, project sam hits, etc. You can see this in his template, and a contributor to whats in his scores. OT could recreate it though to give us something nearly identical.


I hope there’s a bit more to it like multiple mics or some unique functionality like Damage 2 has. $300 for effectively an artist sample pack otherwise is quite steep. It’ll be interesting to see if OT is going to implement anything new in SINE for this (assuming it is in SINE).


----------



## Scalms (Jun 5, 2021)

prodigalson said:


> Sorry if I missed this but couldn't find it anywhere...where is it recorded?


yes curious too.... I'm definitely hoping its Teldex, wouldn't make sense to be somewhere else considering JXL Brass is Teldex


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## Soundbed (Jun 5, 2021)

Scalms said:


> yes curious too.... I'm definitely hoping its Teldex, wouldn't make sense to be somewhere else considering JXL Brass is Teldex





prodigalson said:


> Sorry if I missed this but couldn't find it anywhere...where is it recorded?


Well I assumed at least some of the Mad Max drums were recorded in Tom’s studio based on his studio time videos.



muziksculp said:


> Is JXL Perc. expected to offer more of a mixed perc. instruments from around the world (Taikos, various Hand Drums, Toms, ..etc) for Epic tracks ? or more of a traditional orchestral perc. library ?
> 
> i.e. I'm guessing more likely the former.


He says at the beginning of the previously shared Mad Max video they included surdos and tupans, “world music drums,” toms and kicks from 6-8 kits (many of which were sold on Reverb recently).




ALittleNightMusic said:


> It’ll be interesting to see if OT is going to implement anything new in SINE for this (assuming it is in SINE).


the Mad Max drums were originally in Kontakt fwiw, toward the first couple minutes of the video above is this screenshot:


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 5, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> the Mad Max drums were originally in Kontakt fwiw


I would be surprised if OT released a new library on Kontakt now - pleasantly surprised since I prefer Kontakt to SINE and of course, it supports much more flexible instrument UI and functionality (at least based on what OT has done so far in their own player). Guess we'll find out in a few days.


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## Consona (Jun 6, 2021)

Uiroo said:


> I edited it to make the joke a bit more obvious.


Honestly, if this library came like a year ago, I'd buy it. But now I'm kinda bored of hearing the same big drums sound in every new JXL film score.

Plus none of us is Alan Meyerson so even when having this library, it still won't sound like Batman v Superman.

But the big dynamic range at least brings some opportunity to do something else with it than trailer banging. This is the nice thing about JXL's libraries, you can use the brass for more classical stuff as well.

Shame Sine does not work on my computer at all, otherwise I'd probably buy one or two JXL Brass patches.


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## Peter Satera (Jun 6, 2021)

Consona said:


> Honestly, if this library came like a year ago, I'd buy it. But now I'm kinda bored of hearing the same big drums sound in every new JXL film score.
> 
> Plus none of us is Alan Meyerson so even when having this library, it still won't sound like Batman v Superman.
> 
> ...


It could be mixed by Alan, like JXL Brass. But you still won't gain that exact sound, as it has Spitfire drums and project Sam hits in it. You'll get very close though.


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## gamma-ut (Jun 6, 2021)

jneebz said:


> ha, sorry! Geez, me missing sarcasm is pretty rare...


It's the cute avatar. Leads you into a false sense of security.


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)




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## Toecutter (Jun 9, 2021)

I like the new brass artwork @OrchestralTools nice one


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

There's your answer, folks.


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## Getsumen (Jun 9, 2021)

Can't forget the real news though


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## KEM (Jun 9, 2021)

Bought it as soon as it went up!!


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## Peter Satera (Jun 9, 2021)

KEM said:


> Bought it as soon as it went up!!


Same. We just need some strings now!


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## Wenlone (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> There's your answer, folks.


I hope they release an update with the velocity mapping option for everything.


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## KEM (Jun 9, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Same. We just need some strings now!


Can’t wait for that, hopefully the concept and planning is well under way!!


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## KEM (Jun 9, 2021)

@OrchestralTools will you be changing the artwork of the brass library in SINE? It now says Tom Holkenborg’s Brass but still shows the JXL artwork, but when I click on “My Licenses” it shows the new artwork


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## OT_Tobias (Jun 9, 2021)

After going back to the Library, it should show the new artwork.
If not, send us an email to support!


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## Fry777 (Jun 9, 2021)

@OT_Tobias is the bundle price correct at 199.43+VAT ? I don't get why it should be more expensive to complete the bundle for JXL brass owners


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## gst98 (Jun 9, 2021)

Fry777 said:


> @OT_Tobias is the bundle price correct at 199.43+VAT ? I don't get why it should be more expensive to complete the bundle for JXL brass owners


yeah I thought that was pretty strange for JXL adopters


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

Interested to see some initial reviews. How will it compare to something like LAMP or HZ Perc? Kontakt interfaces (and many other sample players) have compelling workflow functionality when it comes to percussion libraries (look at Damage 2 as an extreme example) but this one looks pretty bare bones in comparison.


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## David Kudell (Jun 9, 2021)

Watching Tom work and create his rhythm makes you realize the advantages of this method. In my opinion breaking it down this way can lead to a more interesting and thoughtful drum part. You definitely can't argue with the results. 

The performance patch also works great by the way, and a tip: if you load two instances and transpose the second up 2 octaves, you have a traditional two hand patch that sounds great for sketching.


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## OrchestralTools (Jun 9, 2021)

Hey everyone! In case you missed it, here's the trailer for Tom Holkenborg's Percussion:




The new collection is live:
*Tom Holkenborg's Percussion—Full-contact drums*

And if you don't own Tom Holkenborg's Brass already, check out the new bundle:
*The Tom Holkenborg SINEbundle*

Hope you're enjoying the livestream...


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 9, 2021)

I am seeing the same issues here as with LAMP - the no RRs doesn't really work, and when Tom, early in the video, tried to take away the machine gun effect, that didnt work either, as I can hear too much phasing. 

It's just the same old thing - if you need to write a percussion line where the drum hits - or most of them - are at or about the same velocity, this method doesn't really work. 

The sound, on the other hand, is really good.


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## OrchestralTools (Jun 9, 2021)

Fry777 said:


> @OT_Tobias is the bundle price correct at 199.43+VAT ? I don't get why it should be more expensive to complete the bundle for JXL brass owners


Hey Fry - it's honestly better to save the 43 cents and get the percussion outside of the bundle. It's still a good price for these drums.


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## NathanTiemeyer (Jun 9, 2021)

Sounds awesome. Could this be a great solution for an all-round library for epic/trailer percussion? I would love this trailer percussion library purchase to be my last (famous last words)


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## KEM (Jun 9, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> After going back to the Library, it should show the new artwork.
> If not, send us an email to support!


Just checked in my VEP template and the correct artwork is there now, thanks!!


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## axb312 (Jun 9, 2021)

Not sure I love how the highest dynamic layers sound on this...


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## gst98 (Jun 9, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> Hey Fry - it's honestly better to save the 43 cents and get the percussion outside of the bundle. It's still a good price for these drums.


I think the point is that there is a discount for new JXL brass users, but not those who bought it previously. The 43 cents is fairly insignificant (although doesn't make a lot of sense)


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## nuyo (Jun 9, 2021)

@OrchestralTools 
When will you unlock the individual section purchase option. 199 is an amazing price, but I still would like to try a few patches before I buy the whole library.


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## Toecutter (Jun 9, 2021)

NathanTiemeyer said:


> Could this be a great solution for an all-round library for epic/trailer percussion?


I think so, Tom is the go-to guy for those big drum sounds, makes sense to use his library for epic/trailer stuff.


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## Toecutter (Jun 9, 2021)

nuyo said:


> @OrchestralTools
> When will you unlock the individual section purchase option. 199 is an amazing price, but I still would like to try a few patches before I buy the whole library.


Individual instrument groups will be available for purchase on june 23rd.


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## JeffvR (Jun 9, 2021)

So now you can sound exactly like JXL. Uhm, well sorry, I'd like to sound like ME.


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> So now you can sound exactly like JXL. Uhm, well sorry, I'd like to sound like ME.


Until a client asks you to sound like JXL.


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## turnerofwheels (Jun 9, 2021)

This sounds great. I am not sure it fills the most pressing gaps in my present libraries, but it does sound great, yes. I'm going to go think about it before I inevitably cave in someday


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## Toecutter (Jun 9, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> So now you can sound exactly like JXL. Uhm, well sorry, I'd like to sound like ME.


So go chop some wood for the shells, melt some metal for the rims and skin a few animals for the drumheads and make your own perc instruments because, according to this logic, unless you have your own custom made instruments you won't be able to sound like you. Also don't forget to code a new DAW and engineer your own recording gear, can't take any risks by using industry standard stuff XD


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## Jack Weaver (Jun 9, 2021)

I don't see the actual product within the SINE GUI - not in the video or on the OT website. I found that a little strange. Aren't they proud of how it looks? (I guess there's little use for the Mixer page of SINE with this library.)

Did Tom even use the SINE version in his video?

How easy is it to load all those instruments in a template? Do you, for example, load 16 instruments within each instance of SINE?

How many instruments are there and how much RAM does it require?

.


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

downloading now!


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

JeffvR said:


> So now you can sound exactly like JXL. Uhm, well sorry, I'd like to sound like ME.


they're only drums.


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 9, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> they're only drums.


EXACTLY !


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> downloading now!


Do you own LAMP or HZ Perc or Damage 2? Would be interesting to hear your comparative opinions if so.

Looking at the instrument list, seems less expansive than any of those three - by quite a large margin.


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## John R Wilson (Jun 9, 2021)

Is all the patches mapped out with each velocity on each key or is some of the patches controlled via velocity?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

John R Wilson said:


> Is all the patches mapped out with each velocity on each key or is some of the patches controlled via velocity?


I believe just the performance kit patch is controlled by velocity. None of the individual drum patches.


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## David Kudell (Jun 9, 2021)

Jack Weaver said:


> I don't see the actual product within the SINE GUI - not in the video or on the OT website. I found that a little strange. Aren't they proud of how it looks? (I guess there's little use for the Mixer page of SINE with this library.)
> 
> Did Tom even use the SINE version in his video?
> 
> ...


Tom uses VEPro so everything's already set up with Sine running on his VEPro rig, so he just writes using Cubase and every drum has its own track. I don't use VEPro and just run Sine directly in Cubase.

Yes he uses the Sine version, I saw it with my own eyes.

There are over 60 instruments. RAM usage is low, most drums seem to be around 15MB so you can easily load the whole library.


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## John R Wilson (Jun 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I believe just the performance kit patch is controlled by velocity. None of the individual drum patches.


Thanks, not too sure if it's for me then. I'm not convinced that mapping would work that well for my workflow and it seems like it would just be harder to play in parts with that kind of mapping.


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## Toecutter (Jun 9, 2021)

Jack Weaver said:


> Did Tom even use the SINE version in his video?


Yes 9:46


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

John R Wilson said:


> Thanks, not too sure if it's for me then. I'm not convinced that mapping would work that well for my workflow and it seems like it would just be harder to play in parts with that kind of mapping.


Yeah, honestly, I really didn't think they'd omit using traditional velocity layers. It's not that groundbreaking of a sound or a must-have to make me completely change my workflow. I'm out.


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Do you own LAMP or HZ Perc or Damage 2? Would be interesting to hear your comparative opinions if so.
> 
> Looking at the instrument list, seems less expansive than any of those three - by quite a large margin.


I own LAMP and Damage 2.

At first glance the biggest difference is you get two mic positions in these: front or back.

They are pretty wet. Already mixed, no dry recordings to remove room / verb.

Both LAMP and D2 have many more sound sculpting capabilities. (D2 has a much wider *variety* of sounds.)

LAMP recordings are always much drier and unprocessed.

I expect I'll be happy using these "as is". They are basically what I wanted all last year.


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## John R Wilson (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Yeah, honestly, I really didn't think they'd omit using traditional velocity layers. It's not that groundbreaking of a sound or a must-have to make me completely change my workflow. I'm out.


Same here, unfortunately this one isn't for me because of its mapping. That workflow obviously does work well for some but I don't think it would work that well for me.

Wouldn't it make sense to also map those 120 or so velocity layers to a single key and then have that controlled by velocity


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## ridgero (Jun 9, 2021)

No thanks


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Yeah, honestly, I really didn't think they'd omit using traditional velocity layers. It's not that groundbreaking of a sound or a must-have to make me completely change my workflow. I'm out.





John R Wilson said:


> Thanks, not too sure if it's for me then. I'm not convinced that mapping would work that well for my workflow and it seems like it would just be harder to play in parts with that kind of mapping.





John R Wilson said:


> Same here, unfortunately this one isn't for me because of its mapping. That workflow obviously does work well for some but I don't think it would work that well for me.
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense to also map those 120 or so velocity layers to a single key and then have that controlled by velocity


yeah, the Performance patch uses traditional mapping. One drum per key, multiple dynamic layers. It's "only" 16 keys though, and I'm not yet clear on what exactly is on each key. There are "only" 7 groups of drums with different varieties and tunings (Tom said often the same drum in a different tuning).

So the reason to use the individual patches instead of the performance patch would be if one of the tunings or alternate drums is what you want instead of whatever's in the 16 Performance kit keys.

I think it would be easy for OT to update the library in the future to map additional performance kits if enough people asked.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 9, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> So go chop some wood for the shells, melt some metal for the rims and skin a few animals for the drumheads and make your own perc instruments because, according to this logic, unless you have your own custom made instruments you won't be able to sound like you. Also don't forget to code a new DAW and engineer your own recording gear, can't take any risks by using industry standard stuff XD


Wait. You don’t have to breed your own goats for the skins... erm... genetically engineer new animals, so the skin is REALLY yours?? Wait a minute... I think I just cracked the mystery behind those engineers in Alien:Covenant. They were composers!


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

John R Wilson said:


> Same here, unfortunately this one isn't for me cause its mapping. That workflow obviously does work well for some but I don't think it would work that well for me.
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense to also map those 120 or so velocity layers to a single key and then have that controlled by velocity


Yeah, I made that point a few pages back. While watching Tom in the live stream, I was screaming internally that this could have been done in like.. 5 minutes with a single key and just drawing velocity in by hand. No need to shift anything, most DAWs have ways to randomize velocity.. I just... do *not* see the utility in this.






Can anyone explain how this isn't easier to do with a velocity curve? Its literally what velocity maps are for. And if you just draw lines, like I did (why..), its the *same* as a velocity map. And if you had round robins instead of 100x differing dynamics, you wouldn't have to make such a detailed velocity map like this either. Slim to no chance of machine gunning.

EDIT: What's interesting about this libraries approach is that you dont have to worry about note velocity, but you *do* have to worry about "pitch" value. And we're talking about an instrument that is devoid of pitch. Doesn't it make more sense to be unconcerned about pitch and more concerned about velocity? (We're hitting a drum harder or softer, not varying pitch)


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## John R Wilson (Jun 9, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> FireGS said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, I made that point a few pages back. While watching Tom in the live stream, I was screaming internally that this could have been done in like.. 5 minutes with a single key and just drawing velocity in by hand. No need to shift anything, most DAWs have ways to randomize velocity.. I just... do *not* see the utility in this.
> ...


I agree, it seems a little counter intuitive to me for my personal workflow. Having those 120 velocities layers controllable via velocity makes more sense to me.


----------



## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

here's the 16 Performance kit sounds you get (velocity mapped), both front and back mics (default everything).
View attachment TH Perc Perf Patch.mp3


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## lettucehat (Jun 9, 2021)

If you're worried about sounding like JXL because you're using his recordings of people hitting drums, you've got some larger issues. Is your music entirely surdo-based?


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## Andrajas (Jun 9, 2021)

great sounding drums, but don't like the workflow. have LAMP and didn't like that workflow either.


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

Andrajas said:


> great sounding drums, but don't like the workflow. have LAMP and didn't like that workflow either.


lamp has two types of velocity mappings for every drum, though.


----------



## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

Anyone ever use a piece of software "incorrectly"? Like, not realizing that there's maybe a shortcut key command, or a macro, or a function, and you do the exact same task, but in a roundabout way? Then you realize, "oh! there's a built in function to do _exactly_ this thing that was taking me 10x longer to do"? 

Yeah, this approach feels like that. 

And just addressing a point some made a few pages back about a benefit of this workflow - sure, if you really _want to_ be able to trigger the same exact sample when you want, then I suppose it's a benefit - but as sample programmers, aren't we trying not to do that? That's why RRs exist - because triggering the exact same sample (whether you want to or not) isn't a realistic thing.


----------



## Zedcars (Jun 9, 2021)

I do not have the library (yet), or LAMP. But for those using Cubase it might be worth trying this out (or a flavour of it) to see if it will allow you to use velocity on one note (in this case C3) to trigger the different dynamic layers spread across the keyboard. It might need tweaking, or may not work too great, but just thought I'd post my idea for others to try. 






Input on the left, output on the right.

Useful or utterly useless?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

Are there any different articulations per drum? Like hard stick vs. soft mallet or rolls?


----------



## Toecutter (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Anyone ever use a piece of software "incorrectly"? Like, not realizing that there's maybe a shortcut key command, or a macro, or a function, and you do the exact same task, but in a roundabout way? Then you realize, "oh! there's a built in function to do _exactly_ this thing that was taking me 10x longer to do"?
> 
> Yeah, this approach feels like that.
> 
> And just addressing a point some made a few pages back about a benefit of this workflow - sure, if you really _want to_ be able to trigger the same exact sample when you want, then I suppose it's a benefit - but as sample programmers, aren't we trying not to do that? That's why RRs exist - because triggering the exact same sample (whether you want to or not) isn't a realistic thing.


Yea I'm hardwired to work in a certain way so this workflow feels a bit alien to me BUT didn't OT include the traditional RRs playable patches too, called performance kits? Or is this something else?


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Yea I'm hardwired to work in a certain way so this workflow feels a bit alien to me BUT didn't OT include the traditional RRs playable patches too, called performance kits? Or is this something else?








Nope.


----------



## gamma-ut (Jun 9, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> I think I just cracked the mystery behind those engineers in Alien:Covenant. They were composers!


Add to the list of things that make more sense than the actual scripts of the Alien prequels.


----------



## Toecutter (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Nope.


 hope they change their mind after seeing how users feel about it... it may be designed around Tom's workflow but in the end we are the ones using it. No worries tho, I have enough perc libraries so I'm not in a hurry and this decision doesn't motivate my gas.


----------



## gst98 (Jun 9, 2021)

I don’t really see why there can’t be the option for both. Would hardly take any editing time at all, and because SINE is closed there is nothing users can do themselves.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

It's definitely nice of Tom to share his personal library (and do an hour-long drum programming tutorial for free!), but OT should've put in some more effort to customize SINE for a percussion instrument IMO, especially if they are charging $300 retail. The sound of the drums are good but so are the drums in LAMP, HZP, D2, etc. - and those have much more control over mics, articulations, tonal mangling, etc. Just feels like the source material OT had was a unique opportunity to do something really innovative and interesting...and instead, they created what is effectively a sample pack with no customization options. But at least they have that webshop integrated in SINE!


----------



## Francis Bourre (Jun 9, 2021)

Didn't like the sound in the demos, will pass.


----------



## jneebz (Jun 9, 2021)

Wait, didn’t I buy this 2 years ago?


----------



## mussnig (Jun 9, 2021)

I'm a bit confused. The webpage says "Fine-tune your mix with 4 mic positions" but everywhere else ("Instruments" tab on the webpage as well as some other comments here) I can only see 2, "front" and "back".

Or are there 2 different front and back mics each?


----------



## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> Yea I'm hardwired to work in a certain way so this workflow feels a bit alien to me BUT didn't OT include the traditional RRs playable patches too, called performance kits? Or is this something else?


Yes, partially. the Performance kit has 16 drums. But the full package has those same drums in 7 groups with more variations and tunings that are NOT mapped by dynamics.


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

mussnig said:


> I'm a bit confused. The webpage says "Fine-tune your mix with 4 mic positions" but everywhere else ("Instruments" tab on the webpage as well as some other comments here) I can only see 2, "front" and "back".
> 
> Or are there 2 different front and back mics each?


I only have 2 mic positions, front and back. They are both processed and “wet”.


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

jneebz said:


> Wait, didn’t I buy this 2 years ago?


Funny! I always wanted Strikeforce but reviews from users seemed mixed about 50/50 as to whether or not they sat easily in a mix.
I think the TH drums will sit in my mixes just right, out of the box, based on some initial noodling.


----------



## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

gst98 said:


> I don’t really see why there can’t be the option for both. Would hardly take any editing time at all, and because SINE is closed there is nothing users can do themselves.


It wouldn’t take much time to build one’s own in a Kontakt version (not even kidding) although many here would object to that based on already paying $200...


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Are there any different articulations per drum? Like hard stick vs. soft mallet or rolls?


No not that I can tell.


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> It's definitely nice of Tom to share his personal library (and do an hour-long drum programming tutorial for free!), but OT should've put in some more effort to customize SINE for a percussion instrument IMO, especially if they are charging $300 retail. The sound of the drums are good but so are the drums in LAMP, HZP, D2, etc. - and those have much more control over mics, articulations, tonal mangling, etc. Just feels like the source material OT had was a unique opportunity to do something really innovative and interesting...and instead, they created what is effectively a sample pack with no customization options. But at least they have that webshop integrated in SINE!


I think this is more in keeping with the “fewer samples but all of them great” philosophy like in the (popular among trailer composers) Ava Instinct.


----------



## jneebz (Jun 9, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Funny! I always wanted Strikeforce but reviews from users seemed mixed about 50/50 as to whether or not they sat easily in a mix.
> I think the TH drums will sit in my mixes just right, out of the box, based on some initial noodling.


Once you figure out how the SForce near/far works....and if you’re cool with the dynamic layers spread across the keyboard...it becomes pretty awesome. I don’t do a ton of trailer stuff but when I do I find it really easy to sound good quickly.


----------



## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

jneebz said:


> Once you figure out how the SForce near/far works....and if you’re cool with the dynamic layers spread across the keyboard...it becomes pretty awesome. I don’t do a ton of trailer stuff but when I do I find it really easy to sound good quickly.


Very cool. Yeah it seems “about half” of the people who bought it feel the same, based on my very scientific personal polling of social media.


----------



## José Herring (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Yeah, I made that point a few pages back. While watching Tom in the live stream, I was screaming internally that this could have been done in like.. 5 minutes with a single key and just drawing velocity in by hand. No need to shift anything, most DAWs have ways to randomize velocity.. I just... do *not* see the utility in this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I tried it last year and remapped some of my old kontakt drum libraries the way he does it here.

I will say it's a lot easier to get some speed and more varied drum rhythms going with 10 fingers than it is to sit there banging one finger on a single key 

I can say it's the only way to do it but it is a different way that leads to different results especially if you have more than just 4 or 5 velocity layers. If you have more than 20 on a non pitched instrument I found it easier to program drums with the velocity layers mapped out on the keyboard rather than fumble around with that damn little velocity line in a DAW. 

Just saying.


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

José Herring said:


> rather than fumble around with that damn little velocity line in a DAW.


That's a silly argument. What's smaller, the notes here or the velocity lines?


----------



## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

José Herring said:


> rather than fumble around with that damn little velocity line in a DAW.


I may have mentioned it in a different thread but velocities are easier or less easy to change based on the DAW itself in my experience. I liked editing velocities much more in ProTools than I do in Studio One.


----------



## José Herring (Jun 9, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I may have mentioned it in a different thread but velocities are easier or less easy to change based on the DAW itself in my experience. I liked editing velocities much more in ProTools than I do in Studio One.


Ugh, I hated adjusting velocity in PT. Midi in PT in general was a nightmare so I just stopped using it. 

But, I do recognize that it's what you got use to.


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## José Herring (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> That's a silly argument. What's smaller, the notes here or the velocity lines?


It's easy in Cubase to select all notes on a horizontal with just one click and move the whole line up a down. Total nightmare for me to pick at those little damn thin lines. 

But, I do both. To each their own.


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## Alex Niedt (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> That's a silly argument. What's smaller, the notes here or the velocity lines?


You seem to be really averse to just letting people enjoy their preferred way of working. He began the sentence you quoted with "I found it easier", so why is that a "silly argument"? He's just stating what he prefers. It isn't wrong just because you don't like it.


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> so why is that a "silly argument"?


Because all of our opinions are arguments for or against something - and we're just arguing (in the scholarly definition) about different workflows. I was commenting _specifically_ on the aspect of "small lines".



Alex Niedt said:


> It isn't wrong just because you don't like it.


I don't think I've said anyone specifically is wrong, I've just asked how is this any _better_, which people are claiming. I _am_ saying the developer(s) are wrong in thinking that this is a good workflow. They've forced the workflow on its potential users, and that's wrong. It's forcing would-be customers to break _their_ preferred methods (or in this case industry standards) because their featured artist does it. The same argument works back at the developers; just because your artist does it that way doesn't mean we should.

And nope, I'm sure a bunch of people won't buy it because of that. Everyone (in _this _equation) loses.


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Ugh, I hated adjusting velocity in PT. Midi in PT in general was a nightmare so I just stopped using it.
> 
> But, I do recognize that it's what you got use to.


I actually enjoyed ProTools for MIDI, but it crashes for me using Kontakt sadly.


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## José Herring (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Because all of our opinions are arguments for or against something - and we're just arguing (in the scholarly definition) about different workflows. I was commenting _specifically_ on the aspect of "small lines".
> 
> 
> I don't think I've said anyone specifically is wrong, I've just asked how is this any _better_, which people are claiming. I _am_ saying the developer(s) are wrong in thinking that this is a good workflow. They've forced the workflow on its potential users, and that's wrong. It's forcing would-be customers to break _their_ preferred methods (or in this case industry standards) because their featured artist does it. The same argument works back at the developers; just because your artist does it that way doesn't mean we should.
> ...


I will get these drums but haven't tried them yet. 

I while back I bought some Surdos from Aria sounds and the programming was so abysmal that I couldn't use them. The only advice I got from them for missing samples was the "batch resave" but that didn't save it from just bad programming. About that time I ran across JXL videos on the madmax drums which I remember liking a bit and wondered how he was getting some of those cool rhythms. I took my Aria samples and resampled them. Mapped them out across the keyboard. I went a bit further and also included the round robins for each velocity layer too and mapped those on their respective keys. 

I'm not saying it's better or worse. For me, all of a sudden I could get out the drum patters that I was hearing in my head for the first time since I started trying to program drums. It was effortless because I could actually play what I was hearing rather than sit there and program it. 

That's all I'm saying really. 

LAMP on the other hand. Imo there aren't enough velocity layers or round robins in that library to make either method that effective so I have to use the drums as mainly a big hit library which kind of sucks but it sounds so good that I don't mind use it like that. So I use the keyboard map method for fast lines and LAMP for that earth shattering loud clap of thunder.

Also, mapped across the keyboard it is way easier for me to get those fast ruffs leading up to a beat.


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## David Kudell (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> Because all of our opinions are arguments for or against something - and we're just arguing (in the scholarly definition) about different workflows. I was commenting _specifically_ on the aspect of "small lines".
> 
> 
> I don't think I've said anyone specifically is wrong, I've just asked how is this any _better_, which people are claiming. I _am_ saying the developer(s) are wrong in thinking that this is a good workflow. They've forced the workflow on its potential users, and that's wrong. It's forcing would-be customers to break _their_ preferred methods (or in this case industry standards) because their featured artist does it. The same argument works back at the developers; just because your artist does it that way doesn't mean we should.
> ...


At a certain point, you have to kind of look at the movie posters on his wall and go, "You know, maybe the AAA composer's methods do kind of work." You can argue there are easier ways. You can argue there are faster ways. But then I'd say, "play me a track of yours that stands up to 'Spiky Cars' from Mad Max."


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 9, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> At a certain point, you have to kind of look at the movie posters on his wall and go, "You know, maybe the AAA composer's methods do kind of work." You can argue there are easier ways. You can argue there are faster ways. But then I'd say, "play me a track of yours that stands up to 'Spiky Cars' from Mad Max."


Would it have killed OT to release this library with multiple workflows possible?

Especially since it’s a propriety engine where users can’t change it themselves.


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## borisb2 (Jun 9, 2021)

With all that discussion about the right velocity approach I would say each to his own..

But 😋 … when using velocity key-mapped samples, how are you massaging dynamics to say add a crescendo to recorded notes. Its easy if you‘re dealing with velocities by raising all selected events towards the end in Cubase. Can you do that with notes? „transpose them up towards the end“??..never heard of that.
With velocities I‘m using that approach (for all kind of parts incl staccato strings) all-the-time!


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> At a certain point, you have to kind of look at the movie posters on his wall and go, "You know, maybe the AAA composer's methods do kind of work." You can argue there are easier ways. You can argue there are faster ways. But then I'd say, "play me a track of yours that stands up to 'Spiky Cars' from Mad Max."


Yikes, we're going there...

"The credentials fallacy is often used in conjunction with an argument from authority or with an appeal to accomplishments, since the person using the credentials fallacy will often try to disparage the opinion of the person without credentials, while comparing it with the opinion of those that have them."

You're missing my point, David;



Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Would it have killed OT to release this library with multiple workflows possible?


This.


FireGS said:


> It's forcing would-be customers to break _their_ preferred methods (or in this case industry standards) because their featured artist does it.


I'm not saying his _results_ aren't nice, or even great in some cases, but I really don't see how that factors into a product made for _me _(or, us, rather), or a given workflow.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

So Performance Kit has 16 different drums, but I think in terms of separate drums (ignoring tuning), there's about 31 different drums sampled. No snares or cymbals or metals or anything like that. All played in the same style (hard stick hit it seems). Also it seems like individual drums were recorded, no ensembles.

Since Tom said he recorded these in many different spaces and even his studio room, I imagine the back and front mics can't be consistent in terms of what they do? Or was everything processed to appear like it was consistently recorded?


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> transpose them up towards the end


Arpeggiate the chord with your fingers when you record the part?


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## borisb2 (Jun 9, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> At a certain point, you have to kind of look at the movie posters on his wall and go, "You know, maybe the AAA composer's methods do kind of work." You can argue there are easier ways. You can argue there are faster ways. But then I'd say, "play me a track of yours that stands up to 'Spiky Cars' from Mad Max."


not sure if I like that statement


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> was everything processed to appear like it was consistently recorded?


Yes that was my impression.


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## borisb2 (Jun 9, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Arpeggiate the chord with your fingers when you record the part?


imagine 2 weeks later I want to add a crescendo 

or increase slightly the existing crescendo

or get rid of the recorded crescendo

or start a bit louder but keep dynamics towards the end


... all takes 2.8s with velocity approach  .. again .. using all of the above all the time when improving the dynamics of a track (incl strings or other fast lines)


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 9, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> At a certain point, you have to kind of look at the movie posters on his wall and go, "You know, maybe the AAA composer's methods do kind of work." You can argue there are easier ways. You can argue there are faster ways. But then I'd say, "play me a track of yours that stands up to 'Spiky Cars' from Mad Max."


Reminds me of a movie I once saw where a guy says something like: “Do you know why I’m right on this? Because I drive the bigger car”


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> imagine 2 weeks later I want to add a crescendo
> 
> or increase slightly the existing crescendo
> 
> ...


I prefer velocities as well. Especially the “split” velocities from LAMP where they are divided across two keys so that machine gunning won’t happen if you alternate keys.


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Reminds me of a movie I once saw where a guy says something like: “Do you know why I’m right on this? Because I drive the bigger car”


Sounds like the rules of the road in Italy


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## David Kudell (Jun 9, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Reminds me of a movie I once saw where a guy says something like: “Do you know why I’m right on this? Because I drive the bigger car”


No sillier than someone claiming to have a better method of programming percussion than Tom Holkenborg.


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> No sillier than someone claiming to have a better method of programming percussion than Tom Holkenborg.


Boy the appeal to authority is strong on this one. Can't wait to see all the other sample devs out there switching to this workflow. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## borisb2 (Jun 9, 2021)

guys .. each to their own.. peace!

but add me that crescendo using key mapping 

maybe JXL music doesnt need crescendo .. its already ffff


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 9, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> No sillier than someone claiming to have a better method of programming percussion than Tom Holkenborg.


What he meant, I think, was that Tom’s workflow is not better _for him _and many others.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

Cool for Tom to share some of his processing tricks (~1:13 in the announcement video). Would've been nice for OT to take some of his common "recipes" and created a way to apply those directly within SINE itself (ex. distortion -> compression with ability to parallel mix it). That would be part of Tom's sound and would make sense to me to be part of his signature percussion library.


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## Scalms (Jun 9, 2021)

A little disappointed this wasn’t done at Teldex. Oh well. I’m a big fan of surdos so I guess I will mull this one over


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## Scalms (Jun 9, 2021)

Oh and is the new acronym THP?and THB for the brass? Or will it forever be JXL Brass? Let’s decide this now....


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## David Kudell (Jun 9, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> What he meant, I think, was that Tom’s workflow is not better _for him _and many others.


Fair enough, sorry if I offended you or FireGS. I guess I took it too literally when FireGS said "I _am_ saying the developer(s) are wrong in thinking that this is a good workflow." But whatever works for each of us is good! Cheers!


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## FireGS (Jun 9, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> Fair enough, sorry if I offended you or FireGS. I guess I took it too literally when FireGS said "I _am_ saying the developer(s) are wrong in thinking that this is a good workflow." But whatever works for each of us is good! Cheers!


My bad. I should have said (in a more direct way): the developer(s) are wrong in forcing this workflow which is counter to the industry and most of our workflows. All is forgiven.


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## Casiquire (Jun 9, 2021)

Didn't they market it as four mic positions? The site seems to show only two


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## WindcryMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

I‘m afraid that I come down strongly on the side of preferring velocity to note value for percussion dynamics. Case in point: during his live event, I watched Mr. Holkenborg trying to expand the dynamic range of a drum part by grabbing the lower half of the hits and pulling them to a lower group of notes, and thought to myself that using a velocity ramp would not only do that much more quickly but also would more evenly distribute the hit velocities from softest to loudest.

It’s my guess that Mr. Holkenborg uses his method not necessarily because it is better for everyone, but because it is what he’s accustomed to and comfortable with. And of course one cannot argue with the results he gets, but that doesn’t mean everyone else will get the same results if they switch to that method. I suspect the main stuff that gives his percussion “that sound” is the stuff between his ears, not the stuff on his computer.

So that was strike one for me with this library. But on top of that, I already have RRA Saga, and to my ears this library sounds very similar to elements of that, especially with the close mics on Saga. If that’s an indictment of my hearing, then so be it, but I just don’t feel that this library fills any gaps in my percussion suite, so I’m taking a pass on it. I hope it sells well for him and OT, though.


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## RoyBatty (Jun 9, 2021)

FireGS said:


> That's a silly argument. What's smaller, the notes here or the velocity lines?


Depends on what you are doing, however moving pitches is often much easier.


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## jcrosby (Jun 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Didn't they market it as four mic positions? The site seems to show only two


Yeah I'm not sure what's up with that. It only downloads with two mics...


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## jcrosby (Jun 9, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Yeah I'm not sure what's up with that. It only downloads with two mics...


I've got a support ticket for something else open with OT. I'll mention this to them. Guessing it's a clerical error... (A big one! But a clerical error nonetheless)....


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

RoyBatty said:


> Depends on what you are doing, however moving pitches is often much easier.


Can you give an example of something that is easier? I’m trying to think of anything you can do with pitch mapping that you cannot just as easily do with velocity mapping, given the same samples and a modern DAW like Studio One. And velocity mapping has the advantage of doing things that are much slower using pitch mapping.


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## axb312 (Jun 9, 2021)

Too expensive for something recorded, played and mixed by one person imo. 

Also, seemingly no mic options and the weird key mapping... Gotta think about this one...


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## jcrosby (Jun 9, 2021)

*FYI FOR LOGIC USERS LOOKING TO WORK VIA VELOCITY:*

Here's a preset I made with Logic's Modifier MIDIFX plugin. It's a re-mapper that triggers every note via velocity. Keep in mind the settings will differ anytime there are more or less samples in a patch...

It should be a good starting template though for people who want to make Modifier presets for velocity based editing... This one works with the _Bass Drum 1 Low Tuning 20 in. _patch seamlessly. (At least so far it seems to.)

Bonus! It responds to any key so you can use two or more fingers for live sequencing.

Preset attached if you want to use it as a jump off point to fine tune the other drum patches...


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## RoyBatty (Jun 9, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Can you give an example of something that is easier? I’m trying to think of anything you can do with pitch mapping that you cannot just as easily do with velocity mapping, given the same samples and a modern DAW like Studio One. And velocity mapping has the advantage of doing things that are much slower using pitch mapping.


Select all notes across a couple pitches, use the arrow keys to adjust pitch or ctrl arrow to adjust octave, while listening to the sample with each adjustment.

Using the left/right arrow keys to move through notes in time and adjusting pitch and octave up/down with up/down arrow keys.

especially when the notes are fairly close together and look the same if using velocity instead.

I would think you could get a better visual feel of rhythm with pitch instead of velocity. Maybe not, though ...

if your DAW has the capability, in Drum edit mode limit the visible pitches to only the ones you want or need.

Use notation on a grand staff, if you like to work that way.

I am not saying it is always better. Crescendos make more sense with velocity.


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## holywilly (Jun 9, 2021)

I LOVE this library, especially on the quiet side. And this library is so well sampled, kudos to JXL and OT.


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## josephwmorgan (Jun 9, 2021)

Have been waiting for this library since JXL Brass came out (and quickly became the only Brass library I use)! Purchased this the minute it went live today and it sounds INCREDIBLE.....however VERY much hoping for an update that includes patches for ALL workflows (not just Tom's). Maybe some multis one day as well @OrchestralTools? Regardless, excellent work and congrats on another phenomenal lib! 

I own all the other perc libraries that have been mentioned in this thread already (Damage 2, LAMP, etc). This sounds better than all of them as soon as you load it up


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 9, 2021)

josephwmorgan said:


> I own all the other perc libraries that have been mentioned in this thread already (Damage 2, LAMP, etc). This sounds better than all of them as soon as you load it up


That's a pretty bold statement...(especially given LAMP was recorded at Eastwood and mixed by Alan Meyerson and HZP was recorded at AIR and mixed by Alan, HZ, JXL, etc., so it'd be quite something to be so clearly better sounding than that out of the gate). Looking forward to comparisons.


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## sopwith (Jun 9, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Didn't they market it as four mic positions? The site seems to show only two


I was trying to figure this out - it might be Front and Rear stereo mixes (technically 4 channels). Only 2 mixes are listed in the Product page or referred to in the Livestream.


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## josephwmorgan (Jun 9, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That's a pretty bold statement...(especially given LAMP was recorded at Eastwood and mixed by Alan Meyerson and HZP was recorded at AIR and mixed by Alan, HZ, JXL, etc., so it'd be quite something to be so clearly better sounding than that out of the gate). Looking forward to comparisons.


They certainly offer a bit more flexibility with the more mixes, mic positions, etc. However straight out of the box I already prefer JXL Perc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Soundbed (Jun 9, 2021)

RoyBatty said:


> Select all notes across a couple pitches, use the arrow keys to adjust pitch or ctrl arrow to adjust octave, while listening to the sample with each adjustment.
> 
> Using the left/right arrow keys to move through notes in time and adjusting pitch and octave up/down with up/down arrow keys.
> 
> ...


Got it, thank you. I could probably do most of the same selecting, and adjust the velocities about as fast although the mouse clicks would be more strain on the wrist than a keystroke.


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## Instrugramm (Jun 9, 2021)

Scalms said:


> Oh and is the new acronym THP?and THB for the brass? Or will it forever be JXL Brass? Let’s decide this now....


JXL Brass forever, just sounds cooler...^^


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## Scalms (Jun 9, 2021)

Instrugramm said:


> JXL Brass forever, just sounds cooler...^^


Totally agree. “Tom Holkenborg’s Brass“ is just a little too unwieldy for me. sorry Tom!😄


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Jun 9, 2021)

Gotta say I quickly have enough of this particular drum sound.
Judging from the 3-4 audio demos I’ve listened to at least.


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## José Herring (Jun 9, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Can you give an example of something that is easier? I’m trying to think of anything you can do with pitch mapping that you cannot just as easily do with velocity mapping, given the same samples and a modern DAW like Studio One. And velocity mapping has the advantage of doing things that are much slower using pitch mapping.


10 fingers can move faster than one.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 9, 2021)

I bought Strike Force and for me it works great. This however sounds better though the stacking ensemble thing in SF is unique to that lib. The only Tom’s I have sonically that compete with this are LADD and of course workflow is different. Personally I am fine with either work flow. This will not replace Damage or LAMP or LADD or maybe any other major perc lib I have as it focuses on just mid to- low drums but for what it does I have not heard another library do as well this way sonically.


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## Manaberry (Jun 9, 2021)

No Sleighbells...


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## river angler (Jun 9, 2021)

For goodness sake! not another percussion library! LOL! 

Between the smatterings in the Berlin Inspire series, Damage 2, CinePerc, PercX and occasional Logic library samples I would be extremely worried I was loosing my musical marbles if I couldn't achieve whatever I need in the percussion dpt!

C'mon you gear addicts out there! Humour me! and resist the marketing for once!


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## JeffvR (Jun 9, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> So go chop some wood for the shells, melt some metal for the rims and skin a few animals for the drumheads and make your own perc instruments because, according to this logic, unless you have your own custom made instruments you won't be able to sound like you. Also don't forget to code a new DAW and engineer your own recording gear, can't take any risks by using industry standard stuff XD


Haha, yeah let's go the opposite direction. You don't have to make your own drums to be more original than a JXL Percussion library. If you sample your own stuff you're in full control of the player you use, the drums, the micing, the room, the mixing. That's already waaaayyy more original.

My point is, now you're stuck with 2 mic positions and the processing Tom applied. You're even stuck with Tom's workflow with the velocity mapping! It would have been better to have more mic options and an unprocessed version, to have a bit more control of the sound. The basic stuff other libraries have. That way you can sculpt it the way YOU want. But hey, I guess this is just not for me. I don't make "epic" music anyway, and I don't want to sound like Tom. To each their own!


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 10, 2021)

But if I'm not missing anything the name is somehow misleading. This is not a percussion library but a drum library. Even a very special and limited one. It's like calling jxl brass jxl orchestral Imo.
Watching the walkthrough I've been waiting for the cymbals, metals, tuned percs and whatnot. So it cannot be compared to something like Damage.
The lots of dynamics are interesting though and his keymapping makes sense to me.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 10, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I prefer velocities as well. Especially the “split” velocities from LAMP where they are divided across two keys so that machine gunning won’t happen if you alternate keys.


yes, that's the mode I prefer as well. at least for recording. i'm fine with a range of keys for the velocity when I'm editing but recording with such a setup I find uninspiring because I cannot make anything sound half decent while I (live) record. maybe some people can but I can't convince my brain that lower keys means softer without thinking about the scale i'm playing in. maybe that's the curse of being a keyboard player


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## KEM (Jun 10, 2021)

Got everything in my template now and just started messing around with it, and while I’ll need more time to really give my full thoughts on it I’ll say that right off the bat it feels more natural, yet somehow cleaner than LAMP, it’s not as snappy or big, but it still sounds great and to me it’s a completely different library, despite how they may look very similar on paper. Not to mention the added bonus that I’ve already been hearing these samples for years, so I loved them before I could even use them…


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

KEM said:


> it’s not as snappy or big








Wait... I thought this was a JXL drums library...


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 10, 2021)

No doubt it sounds like Tom, sounds great though! I think I’ll buy a la carte for drums I need


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## Peter Satera (Jun 10, 2021)

...people complaining that the requested bespoke artist's library is _in_ _fact_ the artist's library. Brilliant.


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## OrchestralTools (Jun 10, 2021)

Hey everyone - I've seen this question come up and it was certainly a very big deal for someone on the live chat yesterday: How many mic positions?






So it's 2 mics on 4 channels. We originally had '4 mic positions' in the product copy—that's updated now. Hope that clarifies things!

Thanks for the positive response here, feel free to hit us up if you have any more questions.


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## reids (Jun 10, 2021)

So for this drum library, will there be machine-gun effect if you play the same repeated notes over and over again?


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## berto (Jun 10, 2021)

reids said:


> So for this drum library, will there be machine-gun effect if you play the same repeated notes over and over again?


unless you insert a midi script in your daw that chooses random neighbouring keys at each stroke...


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> ...people complaining that the requested bespoke artist's library is _in_ _fact_ the artist's library. Brilliant.


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## reids (Jun 10, 2021)

berto said:


> unless you insert a midi script in your daw that chooses random neighbouring keys at each stroke...


But then it will have different velocity since it is mapped to be get louder/quiter as it moves up and down the octaves. Want to play repeated notes with same velocity. It can or cant do this without machine gun effect?


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## babylonwaves (Jun 10, 2021)

reids said:


> But then it will have different velocity since it is mapped to be get louder/quiter as it moves up and down the octaves. Want to play repeated notes with same velocity. It can or cant do this without machine gun effect?


with so many velocity layers, you can safely choose neighbourhood notes randomly to introduce variations. round robins do the same. the whole point about it is to make sure the hits sound a different.


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## Peter Satera (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


>


Updated it, just for you.


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## berto (Jun 10, 2021)

reids said:


> But then it will have different velocity since it is mapped to be get louder/quiter as it moves up and down the octaves. Want to play repeated notes with same velocity. It can or cant do this without machine gun effect?


i assume that if you have 100 velocities in a library, the volume increments are so minimal that, even if you do a steady ostinato using 4 different keys, they will sound at the same volume (like it was the same velocity). a bit like in real life, even if i wanted, i could never hit my snare at exactly the same velocity, it will always be -+4 (in velocity steps)


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## Ruffian Price (Jun 10, 2021)

So how are the samples set up in the performance patch? I assumed they sacrifice velocity layers to have RR, but who knows


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## Waywyn (Jun 10, 2021)

Hey all,

a few cents on the mapping and "not sounding snappy or big". I have to admit at first I found the mapping a bit weird to work with when writing my demo, but after some time I started to dig the workflow because of a few very important things:

Sloppily edited samples within a round-robin chain don't mess up your arrangements and it always sounds exactly the same like you programmed it.

You can also easily copy one track to the next instrument track and you get an instant great result straight out of the box. You may increase the effect by gently humanizing each track.

Regarding the not sounding as snappy or big. This is why it is useful to understand how to work with the velocity layer approach that Tom is using. You need to layer them, clean out unwanted freqs, and process them accordingly. Yes, there are some preprocessed percussion libs out there but while you have to accept the sound of them as is, JXLP is totally flexible.

THIS library IS one of the most detailed percussion libs out there and it sounds as snappy and huge as you want to and the great thing is that you can tweak little thing by using lower or higher tunings or bigger and smaller drums to create the most detailed percussion arrangement you want because obviously the basic sound of track changes with every little detail of the other used sounds and instruments, right?

PS: Just to clarify, if I say something around on this forum (or in general) it is mostly only positive stuff. The simple reason behind it is that I safely ignore and reject all the offers on not-great sounding sample libraries.

I also stick with my statement. There is no percussion library like this out there plus you got the drum sounds of Mad Max.

Additionally, recorded and edited by one of the top Hollywood composers out there and if you ask me, 199 is a total steal. A few years ago, I would have chopped off my left arm with a spoon to get sounds like this.


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## Toecutter (Jun 10, 2021)

I'm glad that THP (lol I thought ppl were talking bout Tonehammer Percussion until I realized OT changed the name of JXL stuff, nooooo) isn't overprocessed off the shelf... it gives some of the control back to the user. THP isn't a one trick pony (epic only) like I thought it would be... that's cool. I get that the modern media composer want presets or prebaked sounds to get a track done asap but it's so easy to make a drum pop anyway... and you will learn a new skill 

Watching Tom work with the library gave me the clear picture that THP is geared towards a more traditional writing style, where you have to layer drums to make them sound huge like real players would do. And the mapping makes sense to this workflow, like copy+paste data across tracks and have precise control over the performance. So yea maybe I need to be more open minded and give this bad boy a whirl...


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

José Herring said:


> 10 fingers can move faster than one.


Good point! I thought we were talking about editing (only) but back to note entry — it is slightly easier to get some rolls in, the first time, using more fingers and pitch mapping. I use multiple fingers on drum pads though, when using velocities.



Waywyn said:


> A few years ago, I would have chopped off my left arm with a spoon to get sounds like this.


yeah the sound is exactly something I have tried to get for years. Funny to me how this forum can’t get enough strings but some really truly awesome drums is a sample library too far (for some) lol


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## Waywyn (Jun 10, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Funny to me how this forum can’t get enough strings but some really truly awesome drums is a sample library too far (for some) lol


To be honest, I was about writing something like this but thought: Nah Alex, stay away from the oil-in-fire stuff, but I have to agree.

When it comes to strings libs 392847589 divisi modes and features to get access to each string and fingers of each solo instrument by considering the room temperate and time zone ... devs could introduce the most detailed strings lib in a fluent 4k video while saving 100 kids from a crashing helicopter without a parachute .... and people would still complain!

But when it comes to a really detailed percussion lib with lots of flexibility and details:
*hitting one key* "Meh, doesn't sound big!"


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## Karl Feuerstake (Jun 10, 2021)

Sounds pretty big to me! Will take a little time to get used to playing them but that's the fun of learning a new instrument. 

Also, it would be hard for them to restructure the library as one-note velocity layers with round robins, as to my ear the "100 dynamics" is more like 7-8 clearly distinguished ones with 3-6 takes on each. It would be a bit odd to program a drum with 3rr's available on ff while 6rr's exist on fff, as an example, and then every drum is different. That doesn't make it impossible but it does present a challenge to development. 

In the meantime the "performance" kit works more traditionally, it doesn't include all the different drums, but is still quite versatile.


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Updated it, just for you.


So JXL Drums library is supposed to not sound big and snappy?.. Ok.....


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## Ian Dorsch (Jun 10, 2021)

Waywyn said:


> Additionally, recorded and edited by one of the top Hollywood composers out there and if you ask me, 199 is a total steal. A few years ago, I would have chopped off my left arm with a spoon to get sounds like this.


This is pretty much where I'm at. I don't know how many hours I've spent over the years trying and failing to dial in something that sounds acceptably close to the Fury Road percussion, but I'm pretty sure it's more than $199 worth of hours.


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> the "performance" kit works more traditionally, it doesn't include all the different drums, but is still quite versatile.


Yes for sure! I expect to be using the Performance Kit for a few months (or as long as it takes) while I adjust to the workflow of the individual drums.



Waywyn said:


> stay away from the oil-in-fire stuff


haha! I generally look for ways to agree with people here, anyone who has read more than 5 of my posts can notice it. I think we are stronger together. Differences of opinion and different personalities are essential to a strong team.



Waywyn said:


> You can also easily copy one track to the next instrument track and you get an instant great result straight out of the box.


At first I was thinking, "but you can copy tracks using velocity mapping" and then I remembered (a thought I've had before but I'd forgotten about until this morning) the difference: if you have 99 dynamic layers across 99 pitched keys, moving one DEFINITELY uses a different sample. Whereas mapping 99 dynamic layers across 128 velocity values MIGHT trigger the same sample twice (without other scripting shenanigans).



 said:


> How many mic positions?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do I see what's shown in that screenshot? When I load up that drum I see "FRONT" and "BACK" only. I do not see "CLOSE" or "FRM" ... Front and Back are also the only options to download in the My Licenses section of Sine.


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 10, 2021)

Where are the Brothers in Arms & MoS covers? Cmon guys! Not that I need much more convincing to buy it!


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

Waywyn said:


> A few years ago, I would have chopped off my left arm with a spoon to get sounds like this.


Just buy a $29 EQ-matching plugin and a $39 drums library. (Tested.)


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> Just buy a $29 EQ-matching plugin and a $39 drums library. (Tested.)


I'd love to see that in action, put it under some scrutiny. I'm not opposed to the exercise, and I might even try it. But I am sceptical.


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

AdamKmusic said:


> Where are the Brothers in Arms & MoS covers? Cmon guys! Not that I need much more convincing to buy it!


MoS drum sound is not the JXL's Mad Max drums, afaik.


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## Toecutter (Jun 10, 2021)

Waywyn said:


> When it comes to strings libs 392847589 divisi modes and features to get access to each string and fingers of each solo instrument by considering the room temperate and time zone ... devs could introduce the most detailed strings lib in a fluent 4k video while saving 100 kids from a crashing helicopter without a parachute


Release date please? Would it be possible to do divisi at a molecular level? 392847589 div is the right direction but not truly next gen stuff...


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> MoS drum sound is not the JXL's Mad Max drums, afaik.


Well I guess more BvS/JL. But I believe Tom organised the drum sessions for MoS & those are just recorded on drum kits similar to some of the sounds in this library


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I'd love to see that in action, put it under some scrutiny. I'm not opposed to the exercise, and I might even try it. But I am sceptical.


Soundiron's Apocalypse Percussion Micro toms and bass drums ensembles sound a lot like the modern movie hyped up percs to begin with. And if you put some Mad Max tracks through a matching EQ and apply the result to the APM sound, you are golden.


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

AdamKmusic said:


> Well I guess more BvS/JL. But I believe Tom organised the drum sessions for MoS & those are just recorded on drum kits similar to some of the sounds in this library


Again, the problem is, we are not Alan Meyerson. His mixing makes half the magic (an understatement of the century).


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> Soundiron's Apocalypse Percussion Micro toms and bass drums ensembles sound a lot like the modern movie hyped up percs to begin with. And if you put some Mad Max tracks through a matching EQ and apply the result to the APM sound, you are golden.


Ah yes, Mark Petrie led me to Soundiron's Apocalypse Percussion Micro at one time, they are a great starting point!


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 10, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> You seem to be really averse to just letting people enjoy their preferred way of working. He began the sentence you quoted with "I found it easier", so why is that a "silly argument"? He's just stating what he prefers. It isn't wrong just because you don't like it.


I found your silly argument easier bud


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Ah yes, Mark Petrie led me to Soundiron's Apocalypse Percussion Micro at one time, they are a great starting point!


The thing about EQ-matching is, it made the Soundiron drums sound so close to the Mad Max even without any compression or crazy additional effects. Quite amazing.


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## mussnig (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> $29 EQ-matching plugin


Which half-decent EQ-matching do I get for this price? I'm looking for one ...


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> The thing about EQ-matching is, it made the Soundiron drums sound so close to the Mad Max even without any compression or crazy additional effects. Quite amazing.


Cool. You said $29, which is code for Waves in my brain. Did you use Q-Clone?


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

It's the IK Multimedia's Master Match when on sale.  So you'll have to wait a year for that one I'm afraid. I'd like to recommend you some alternative but I haven't tried anything else... But there's quite a lot of these plugins now, try some google-fu (I just can't tell you how good or bad those other plugins are since I don't own them.).


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> It's the IK Multimedia's Master Match when on sale.  So you'll have to wait a year for that one I'm afraid. I'd like to recommend you some alternative but I haven't tried anything else... But there's quite a lot of these plugins now, try some google-fu (I just can't tell you how good or bad those other plugins are since I don't own them.).


ah yes I've seen that IK before, never tried it. thanks for the tip!


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> It's the IK Multimedia's Master Match when on sale.  So you'll have to wait a year for that one I'm afraid. I'd like to recommend you some alternative but I haven't tried anything else... But there's quite a lot of these plugins now, try some google-fu (I just can't tell you how good or bad those other plugins are since I don't own them.).


oh cool i actually have that plugin (never really used it) have to try this..any track in particular give you better results that you can recall ?


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## Akarin (Jun 10, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I'm glad that THP (lol I thought ppl were talking bout Tonehammer Percussion until I realized OT changed the name of JXL stuff, nooooo)



I'll keep using "Holkenbrass" and "Holkenperc."


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## Consona (Jun 10, 2021)

Drumdude2112 said:


> oh cool i actually have that plugin (never really used it) have to try this..any track in particular give you better results that you can recall ?


"Warlord Drums Overlay Stripe" from the Complete Score.

The good thing about the plugin is, you put the track right into it, no need for side-chaining in the daw. And you can load up to 3 tracks and make an overall eq curve out of them, can be quite handy as well.


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> Warlord Drums Overlay Stripe


that's a pretty good demo track for what could be done with this product lol


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## Waywyn (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> Just buy a $29 EQ-matching plugin and a $39 drums library. (Tested.)


Why such effort? Learn to paint with a waveform pen and draw your music. (Tested.)


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> "Warlord Drums Overlay Stripe" from the Complete Score.
> 
> The good thing about the plugin is, you put the track right into it, no need for side-chaining in the daw. And you can load up to 3 tracks and make an overall eq curve out of them, can be quite handy as well.


RAD 👍🏻
Thanks


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 10, 2021)

i gotta sit down and 'zone in' on the walkthrough and see if it brings something different enough to my pallet then the 'usual suspects' (which i pretty much have all of em ) if it does i'll totally buy it...why not i'm a drummer after all 😉.


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## KEM (Jun 10, 2021)

I think you guys are taking what I said out of context, this library is still snappy and big, what I'm saying is that out of the box it is not AS snappy or big as LAMP is, I'm messing around with both as I'm typing this and I still stand by that statement, but that being said I actually like the overall sound of the JXL Drums more, they sound hyped without sacrificing the natural feel of a drum and the noise floor is basically nonexistent which is a huge plus for me as well. These library have very different sounds and I'm not saying one is better than the other because I think both have different uses.


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## dog1978 (Jun 10, 2021)

Here is my review:


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 10, 2021)

With any new library release, good to take both the good and bad reactions with a grain of salt. There's significant financial investment / "shiny new toy" / lack of time bias in those.

I hope we'll see some balanced reviews coming in the next few weeks.


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## Peter Satera (Jun 10, 2021)

Consona said:


> So JXL Drums library is supposed to not sound big and snappy?.. Ok.....


What? I never said _anything _about that. I'm not in the mood, move on.


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## borisb2 (Jun 10, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Funny to me how this forum can’t get enough strings but some really truly awesome drums is a sample library too far (for some) lol


not sure .. strings to do "awesome" is a bit more tricky than hitting some big drums.
To me sampling strings (and script them into a patch) so that you DON'T hear any difference to the real thing is close to impossible. With every soundtrack I listen to and compare to our attempts - I think we can agree on that - yes, of course we can hear the difference in articulations and subtlety. With hitting some hard drums .. they all sound pretty much real? (LAMP, SF, JXL etc.) .. so since JXL drums dont bring anything new to the table for me - especially for 300.- I pass .. I have enough really truly awesome drums


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 10, 2021)

It'd be really interesting to hear the same pattern played with JXL, LAMP, HZP (maybe Damage 2) since I believe they generally share a lot of the same (or same sounding) instruments.


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## David Kudell (Jun 10, 2021)

This interview with Tom is great as he talks a lot about the drums and gives some tips on how to work with the library. These drums aren't replacing big Taikos, Timpanis, and huge bass drums - they're an addition to those that gives you a new paintbrush.


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## turnerofwheels (Jun 10, 2021)

Well I do have to hand it to OT's struck membranophones, between Dagu and Umbra I can already shred my speakers in Sine. Do I _need_ more? No. Would it be fun? Oh my, yes.


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## Casiquire (Jun 10, 2021)

I'm also curious about this versus Damage 2. I'm sure someone will get to that comparison sooner or later, i just want it sooner lol! Like, before the sale ends


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 10, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm also curious about this versus Damage 2. I'm sure someone will get to that comparison sooner or later, i just want it sooner lol! Like, before the sale ends


that would be insanely helpful i agree👍🏻


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## tebling (Jun 10, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> This interview with Tom is great as he talks a lot about the drums and gives some tips on how to work with the library.


Is it just me or is Tom's room REALLY live? I found it hard to listen to him without being distracted by wondering how he mixes anything there...


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## kimgaboury (Jun 10, 2021)

tebling said:


> Is it just me or is Tom's room REALLY live? I found it hard to listen to him without being distracted by wondering how he mixes anything there...


whether a room is treated dry or untreated, when a mixer knows what he’s doing and has a deep knowledge of his listening system, treatment does not matter.


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## muziksculp (Jun 10, 2021)

I think what's very cool, and interesting is the key mapping of the library, it allows one to really jam in i.e. the mid-low range velocities, by jamming in that key range, this is not something that's easy to do when samples are stacked on each other on one key, based on velocity value, plus you don't usually get that many velocity layers i.e. for the lower range dynamics when the velocities are stacked per key.


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> not sure .. strings to do "awesome" is a bit more tricky than hitting some big drums.
> To me sampling strings (and script them into a patch) so that you DON'T hear any difference to the real thing is close to impossible. With every soundtrack I listen to and compare to our attempts - I think we can agree on that - yes, of course we can hear the difference in articulations and subtlety. With hitting some hard drums .. they all sound pretty much real? (LAMP, SF, JXL etc.) .. so since JXL drums dont bring anything new to the table for me - especially for 300.- I pass .. I have enough really truly awesome drums


This forum has taught me to hear more variety and variation in strings samples. The variety and variations in drum sampling aren’t a different thing, to me; maybe one could say this is more like a Vista or a Con Moto. A limited articulation set for a limited number of instruments that achieves one specific goal very intentionally, and few other products approach it. As I was comparing to LAMP today the differences were very obvious to me.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 10, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> As I was comparing to LAMP today the differences were very obvious to me.


Since you own both, would you be willing to share a short pattern between the two (that uses the same types of drums)? Curious how the out of box sound differs between them (I don't own either).


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## Soundbed (Jun 10, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Since you own both, would you be willing to share a short pattern between the two (that uses the same types of drums)? Curious how the out of box sound differs between them (I don't own either).


Yes I’ll probably do one of my videos but in short there are some patches in LAMP where the loudest 5 samples sound “completely” different (might be exaggerating a bit  )

so the thp has waaay more dynamic layers and they are waaaay more consistent.

even if they sounded almost identical in some hits, the consistency and number of dynamic layers are a consideration for someone interested in drum samples.


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## Waywyn (Jun 11, 2021)

Hey everyone, here is my live stream recording from yesterday night.
In around an hour we built a phat big a** punchy loop from hell. Check it out here:
(If you are impatient, we start working on the loop at around 15 mins into the stream)


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## sopwith (Jun 11, 2021)

I'm having a great time digging into this library, but it's quickly become apparent that a more accurate name would have been "Tom's Toms".


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## doctoremmet (Jun 11, 2021)

sopwith said:


> I'm having a great time digging into this library, but it's quickly become apparent that a more accurate name would have been "Tom's Toms".


Maybe we can collectively adopt it as a loving nickname? I like your way with words. Tom’s Toms it is!


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## Voider (Jun 11, 2021)

sopwith said:


> but it's quickly become apparent that a more accurate name would have been "Tom's Toms".



Only if they add a reverb that's called "Hans Zimmer's Zimmer"


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## Casiquire (Jun 11, 2021)

Voider said:


> Only if they add a reverb that's called "Hans Zimmer's Zimmer"


Then a saturator. Call it Zimmer Shimmer. Complimentary glitter eyeshadow for each new customer


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## doctoremmet (Jun 11, 2021)

We also need an 8 bit chiptune emulation synth with all kinds of weird glitchy fx, called Holken Borg.


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## Toecutter (Jun 11, 2021)

Akarin said:


> I'll keep using "Holkenbrass" and "Holkenperc."


I like it, sounds good


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 11, 2021)

Akarin said:


> I'll keep using "Holkenbrass" and "Holkenperc."


Only that its not percussion. In the same way flutes or trombones are not an orchestra. I've stated that before. It's simply drums. Pretty good ones as it appears though.


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## doctoremmet (Jun 11, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Only that its not percussion. In the same way flutes or trombones are not an orchestra. I've stated that before. It's simply drums. Pretty good ones as it appears though.


Oh. Good to point out a language error in a totally serious suggestion to change the name of a percussion- (sorry) a DRUM library. We shall make sure we pass on your message to the original joke-maker, Akarin, and he will conceive of a corrected new funny thing to say. Thanks again and much obliged. We are sorry for Akarin’s error and the damage it may have caused.


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## Waywyn (Jun 11, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Only that its not percussion. In the same way flutes or trombones are not an orchestra. I've stated that before. It's simply drums. Pretty good ones as it appears though.


You MUST be German, right?


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## doctoremmet (Jun 11, 2021)

Waywyn said:


> You MUST be German, right?


Takes one to know one?


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## Casiquire (Jun 11, 2021)

I just watched the walkthrough video and maybe I'm just cynical and boring, but do they all kind of sound the same? How much variety of sound is there? He'd switch instruments and I'd think "didn't we just hear that one?"


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## axb312 (Jun 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I just watched the walkthrough video and maybe I'm just cynical and boring, but do they all kind of sound the same? How much variety of sound is there? He'd switch instruments and I'd think "didn't we just hear that one?"


I got the same feeling. Like many variations of the same instrument sounded too similar.


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## Alex Niedt (Jun 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I just watched the walkthrough video and maybe I'm just cynical and boring, but do they all kind of sound the same? How much variety of sound is there? He'd switch instruments and I'd think "didn't we just hear that one?"


How much of a difference are you expecting between patches like Bass Drum 1 Low Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 1 High Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 Low Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 High Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 Low Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 3 Low Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 3 High Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 4 Low Tuning 24'', and Bass Drum 4 High Tuning 24''? Like...what are the expectations here when you read through the instrument list?


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## Casiquire (Jun 11, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> How much of a difference are you expecting between patches like Bass Drum 1 Low Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 1 High Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 Low Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 High Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 Low Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 3 Low Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 3 High Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 4 Low Tuning 24'', and Bass Drum 4 High Tuning 24''? Like...what are the expectations here when you read through the instrument list?


The expectation is that in all of that variety, maybe one of them can be 
played or processed differently to achieve a different sound.

Also that's a little disingenuous, because he showed a few different types of drums too.


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## Wunderhorn (Jun 11, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> How much of a difference are you expecting between patches like Bass Drum 1 Low Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 1 High Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 Low Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 High Tuning 20'', Bass Drum 2 Low Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 3 Low Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 3 High Tuning 22'', Bass Drum 4 Low Tuning 24'', and Bass Drum 4 High Tuning 24''? Like...what are the expectations here when you read through the instrument list?


It's just the greatest 'round robin' ever made! What's there to complain?


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## Soundbed (Jun 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I just watched the walkthrough video and maybe I'm just cynical and boring, but do they all kind of sound the same? How much variety of sound is there? He'd switch instruments and I'd think "didn't we just hear that one?"





axb312 said:


> I got the same feeling. Like many variations of the same instrument sounded too similar.


I mentioned this earlier but I think it helps to think of this like Con Moto or Vista. With more dynamic layers.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I just watched the walkthrough video and maybe I'm just cynical and boring, but do they all kind of sound the same? How much variety of sound is there? He'd switch instruments and I'd think "didn't we just hear that one?"


Variety is not the strong suit of this library. I think as Tom mentioned, this collection is meant to augment other drums you have (taikos, snares, metals, etc). Tom's Toms by Tom. Played by Tom. Mixed by Tom. Did we mention Tom?

You can hear this in pretty much all of the demos. Which is not necessarily bad if that's the percussion you are focused on using. However, if you compare it to the LAMP demos or the HZP demos or the Damage 2 demos, it is quite obvious how much more variety and hence, inherent internal contrast the percussion of the tracks have. If anything, this library has made me look a lot closer at LAMP - would be nice if there was a sale going on right now for that!


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## Soundbed (Jun 11, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> LAMP - would be nice if there was a sale going on right now for that


Recently ended.


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## Alex Niedt (Jun 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> The expectation is that in all of that variety, maybe one of them can be
> played or processed differently to achieve a different sound.
> 
> Also that's a little disingenuous, because he showed a few different types of drums too.


Wasn't being disingenuous. Was merely trying to humorously illustrate a point. When I first saw the instrument list, I expected a large variety of very similar sounds, which is exactly what it is. And they cut through a mix like no other, for me.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 11, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Recently ended.


Actually seems like they've permanently reduced the price to $299!


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## Soundbed (Jun 11, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Actually seems like they've permanently reduced the price to $299!


True but it was $210 in May


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## jcrosby (Jun 11, 2021)

The strong suit of this library is the dynamic range. E.G. LAMP & HZP's strong suits are variety of drums. D2 would be a variety meets sound design. And while all of these are top notch libraries, none of them come anywhere close to the microscopic level of dynamic range THP has.

Basically it's not for someone just looking for an all-arounder percussion library, it's definitely purpose built. Given that these are the Fury Road drums that should be pretty clear... 

Mind you that doesn't mean it doesn't exist specifically for you just to sound like 'Mad Max'. That's like saying HZP is so narrow in scope that the end result is that anything/everything you could ever do with it 'just winds up sounding like HZ no matter what', because somehow the can't divorce the writing from the tone of the library?? 

Bollocks... You could turns these into drums that fit any number of other projects because they're just really well recorded drums.... Whether or not you like the workflow's another thing altogether... Its workflow, and the range of actual drum tones themselves are where some people are more likely to feel 'boxed in'... 

Horses for courses.... 🐎


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 12, 2021)

Waywyn said:


> You MUST be German, right?


In fact Austrian. But why?


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## doctoremmet (Jun 12, 2021)

Because of your apparent penchant for factually correct nomenclature, even when used in what is obviously a joke (HolkenPerc)


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jun 12, 2021)

I didn't refer to the jokes which would be in fact a more accurate name e.g. Tom's Toms. I did refer to the official name from OT Tom Holkenborg Percussion which is totally misleading imo. And I only mentioned it because I've been waiting during the whole walkthrough for the other percussion instruments only to find out there are none but some special drums. Which are pretty good I find. But if you are looking for an overall percussion library you certainly will not go for THP. Could be confusing for a newbe I think.


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## Waywyn (Jun 12, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I just watched the walkthrough video and maybe I'm just cynical and boring, but do they all kind of sound the same? How much variety of sound is there? He'd switch instruments and I'd think "didn't we just hear that one?"


It's fascinating. I had the same impression with VSL Dimension Strings. All those individual Violins, Violas, etc. absolutely sound the same! What is the point of this???


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## holywilly (Jun 12, 2021)

Waywyn said:


> It's fascinating. I had the same impression with VSL Dimension Strings. All those individual Violins, Violas, etc. absolutely sound the same! What is the point of this???


You have to put them together, both DS and JXL Percussion.


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## holywilly (Jun 12, 2021)

Are we expecting this beast to be released via OT in the near future?


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## Ollie (Jun 12, 2021)

Came up with a few Logic transform sets to make switching midi parts back and forth between the JXL Chromatic layout and a velocity based layout easier. Still requires a little fiddling afterwards but it's a good start.


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## David Kudell (Jun 12, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Are we expecting this beast to be released via OT in the near future?



Check out OT’s Dagu library, there are some massive drums like that in there.


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## Vik (Jun 12, 2021)

It's easy to edit velocity values in DAWs, so – what's the argument for not having velocity based versions of all the existing presets in this library?

With dedicated region parameters for velocity and dynamics, and the ability to select a few notes and change their velocities up down, and key commands like 'Increase/decrease last clicked parameter by 1' (in Logic) velocity based workflow would be more useful for me – because I'm already used to velocity being linked increased/decreased dynamic intensity.


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## Hellfog (Jun 13, 2021)

I have this connected up to my digital drums, sounds great I need to buy more pads.


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## Flyo (Jun 14, 2021)

OT TomPer or AO LAPerc? In terms of playability LA seems more capable. And they added pattern sequencer. But in terms of sound? More natural on LA more processed on Toms Perc. Right?


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## KEM (Jun 14, 2021)

Flyo said:


> OT TomPer or AO LAPerc? In terms of playability LA seems more capable. And they added pattern sequencer. But in terms of sound? More natural on LA more processed on Toms Perc. Right?


It’s hard to describe for me but I actually think JXL sounds more natural, despite it most likely having a lot more processing, LAMP is a little more noisy and has more room tone so it’s kind of easier to hear the processing because of that, I don’t know if that made much sense but that’s how I hear it anyways.

That being said both libraries are great and sound totally different and neither one will replace the other for me, I’ll get different uses out of both


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 14, 2021)

I just purchased LAMP. It’s phenomenal- great sound and because the foundational sound is not overly processed, you can explore a wide tonal range (even comes with presets than span 4 tiers of processing). The large amount of mics allows for great shaping along with smart features like audio choke, sample alignment adjustment, and of course the sequencer which is pretty amazing. There’s also a lot more variety in terms of percussion and types of hits. Plus they sampled actual performances for fills and improv and they have a very clever approach where you can just pick and choose sections from within those so it’s not just playing back the same loop. Plus they have compressor, filters, saturation, etc. all available right from the interface - PER MIC. Honestly, I’m sad I didn’t buy this sooner.


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## borisb2 (Jun 14, 2021)

Flyo said:


> OT TomPer or AO LAPerc?


wonder where the slogan "Full contact percussion" stems from? Is that related to post-Covid19 times?

love LAMP as well by the way ... ("love lamp" .. oh oh)


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## Flyo (Jun 14, 2021)

I recently added Taste and the Toms in it from LA Perc and sound phenomenal, also all the tweaks you could get, all the mics and the sequencer leave me with the desire to upgrade to fully. I don’t know any library with this kind of possibilities. Of course OT Tom gives us another sound to, but based on this thread and all the LA seems more capable


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## onnomusic (Jun 15, 2021)

For the people working in stereo and not in surround. Are you turning off the "back" mics in the mixer? 
@OrchestralTools is this something thats recommended?


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## Peter Satera (Jun 15, 2021)

onnomusic said:


> For the people working in stereo and not in surround. Are you turning off the "back" mics in the mixer?
> @OrchestralTools is this something thats recommended?


I was under the impression they are perceived as 'room mics', so I left them. I'll be mixing them down soon.


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## jononotbono (Jun 15, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> Check out OT’s Dagu library, there are some massive drums like that in there.


I love Dagu drums. Bought it on the intro offer to accompany Phoenix and I had no idea how good it would be.


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## onnomusic (Jun 15, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I was under the impression they are perceived as 'room mics', so I left them. I'll be mixing them down soon.


yeah I like the sound with them as well to be honest. thanks for the reply!


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## holywilly (Jun 17, 2021)

I came across this video and did what he instructed, however his method did not work for me, has anyone tried it yet?


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 17, 2021)

Was there any mention of when the individual instruments will be available to purchase? I want to say I saw something about the 23rd of June but not sure if I just imagined that


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## onnomusic (Jun 17, 2021)

AdamKmusic said:


> Was there any mention of when the individual instruments will be available to purchase? I want to say I saw something about the 23rd of June but not sure if I just imagined that


thats what I heard as well, probably right after the discount period


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## node01 (Jun 23, 2021)

AdamKmusic said:


> Was there any mention of when the individual instruments will be available to purchase? I want to say I saw something about the 23rd of June but not sure if I just imagined that


Sale will end in one hour. Did you end up buying?


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## VSriHarsha (Jun 23, 2021)

Well, did they fix their player, yet? I think they’re still working on it?


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 23, 2021)

node01 said:


> Sale will end in one hour. Did you end up buying?


Nah, I don’t really need a full collection of percussion! The individual sections are up now so I’ll probably pick up the surdos!


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## holywilly (Jun 24, 2021)

AdamKmusic said:


> Nah, I don’t really need a full collection of percussion! The individual sections are up now so I’ll probably pick up the surdos!


Tupans are also GREAT!


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## nuyo (Jun 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Do you own LAMP or HZ Perc or Damage 2? Would be interesting to hear your comparative opinions if so.
> 
> Looking at the instrument list, seems less expansive than any of those three - by quite a large margin.


If you only own JXL Perc, you will need a second library that has stuff like Ethnic and Metal Drums. Something like the new Strezov Sampling Library. I wouldn't use Damage 2.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 24, 2021)

nuyo said:


> If you only own JXL Perc, you will need a second library that has stuff like Ethnic and Metal Drums. Something like the new Strezov Sampling Library. I wouldn't use Damage 2.


I decided against buying JXL Perc. Bought LAMP instead and am very happy about that choice. Damage 2 (which does have metals and ethnic), SAGA, HZ Perc, and CinePerc fill out the rest of my needs.


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## nuyo (Jun 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I decided against buying JXL Perc. Bought LAMP instead and am very happy about that choice. Damage 2 (which does have metals and ethnic), SAGA, HZ Perc, and CinePerc fill out the rest of my needs.


I have LAMP too. The multis fill the gaps of JXL but the Surdos, Toms and Tupans still don't sound as huge as JXL.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 24, 2021)

nuyo said:


> I have LAMP too. The multis fill the gaps of JXL but the Surdos, Toms and Tupans still don't sound as huge as JXL.


Sound big enough to me when I compare to the JXL videos / demos. You can make them sound even bigger if you know how to process them.

But glad you're happy with JXL.


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## nuyo (Jun 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Sound big enough to me when I compare to the JXL videos / demos.


Could be taste or personal musical style but to my ears the JXL Drums sound much more consistent in frequency and agressive.



> You can make them sound even bigger if you know how to process them.


1. I'm not as good at processing as Junkie XL.
2. I just paid 200€ to skip this part.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 24, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Could be taste or personal musical style but to my ears the JXL Drums sound much more consistent in frequency and agressive.
> 
> 
> 1. I'm not as good at processing as Junkie XL.
> 2. I just paid 200€ to skip this part.


Lol - definitely taste. JXL Perc does not sound better than LAMP for me. I paid what I would've spent on JXL to have Alan Meyerson mix my samples


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## nuyo (Jun 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol - definitely taste. JXL Perc does not sound better than LAMP for me. I paid what I would've spent on JXL to have Alan Meyerson mix my samples


I would love if Alan would do more Orchestral Library mixing.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jun 24, 2021)

nuyo said:


> I would love if Alan would do more Orchestral Library mixing.


Agreed! He seems too busy mixing blockbuster and Oscar-caliber movies though.


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 28, 2021)

Picked up the custom drums pack & it sounds really good! Although as a drummer I can’t but help hear the dodgy tuning of some of the drums I’ll post an example later when I’m at my PC, but for the most part you can roughly EQ it out or shorten the release! Tempted to pick up another pack now 😬 should’ve just bought the whole lot


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## Consona (Jun 28, 2021)

nuyo said:


> 1. I'm not as good at processing as Junkie XL.
> 2. I just paid 200€ to skip this part.


There's no skipping of the mixing part.


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## nuyo (Jun 28, 2021)

Consona said:


> There's no skipping of the mixing part.


Mixing yes but I can skip the sound design and processing part. And these drums sound so good, If you orchestrate them right, there is nothing left to do apart from moving the volume knob.


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## borisb2 (Jun 28, 2021)

Waywyn said:


> You MUST be German, right?


Hey, nothing against se germans please

( I am german, I am allowed to make sis joke)


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## nuyo (Jun 28, 2021)

borisb2 said:


> Hey, nothing against se germans please
> 
> ( I am german, I am allowed to make sis joke)


Sehr geehrter Herr borisb2,

Die richtige Version wäre: "Hey, nothing against THE germans, please."

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Nuyo


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## AdamKmusic (Jun 29, 2021)

@OrchestralTools when will individual drums be available to purchase? I noticed the other day on the landing page for THP that it says "instruments from 6 euros" but there's only the collections available


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## muziksculp (Jun 30, 2021)

Got the Tupans.


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## mussnig (Jul 1, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Sehr geehrter Herr borisb2,
> 
> Die richtige Version wäre: "Hey, nothing against THE germans, please."
> 
> ...


You know he wrote "se" and "sis" on purpose, right? Kind of sarcastically referring to the way some Germans speak English (also my native language is German btw.).


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## nuyo (Jul 1, 2021)

mussnig said:


> You know he wrote "se" and "sis" on purpose, right? Kind of sarcastically referring to the way some Germans speak English (also my native language is German btw.).


I know. That's why I replied in a german way.


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## Waywyn (Jul 9, 2021)

nuyo said:


> Mixing yes but I can skip the sound design and processing part. And these drums sound so good, If you orchestrate them right, there is nothing left to do apart from moving the volume knob.


You can have the most perfect drums recorded by the best audio engineers on this planet, the best-written track, and an amazing percussion arrangement, you will ALWAYS have frequency build-up at some spots. Knowing about EQ, compression, creating space, and avoiding frequency build-up is a MUST to learn ... because every track is different.

You can't say: I have the perfect mixture of spice! It may be awesome with chicken. It may taste terrible with fruit yogurt.


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## Dom (Jul 14, 2021)

Bought it, drums sound fine. SINE Player is user unfriendly to me though, and I regret the purchase

- How do you audition sounds? Double click in the Library - how do you go to the next? The only way I found is to clear the articulation list and start again, rather cumbersome

- How do you reduce the amount of voices used? For percussion I find this an essential tool - If you are only playing one tom for example, I don't need 60 toms ringing out. You are just playing one instrument

I wish this library was in Kontakt.


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## nuyo (Jul 14, 2021)

Dom said:


> Bought it, drums sound fine. SINE Player is user unfriendly to me though, and I regret the purchase
> 
> - How do you audition sounds? Double click in the Library - how do you go to the next? The only way I found is to clear the articulation list and start again, rather cumbersome
> 
> ...



I just re recorded the Library in my DAW and created Kontakt Instruments with the samples. Now I have JXL Percussion in Kontakt.


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## sopwith (Jul 14, 2021)

Dom said:


> - How do you audition sounds? Double click in the Library - how do you go to the next? The only way I found is to clear the articulation list and start again, rather cumbersome



I don't mind the Sine player too much (not the world's biggest Kontakt fan anyway) but I'd really like to know an answer to this question.


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