# How often changing chords??



## gsilbers (Oct 16, 2009)

I has the same question and also with harmony. The ansswer was extremely more simpleR than I thought. 

What opened me to the aanswer was the smalley book: 
composing for film found on his website or truespec


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## Mr Greg G (Oct 16, 2009)

There is no rule... just go where your head is leading you


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## bryla (Oct 16, 2009)

No rule...

observe how music affects you in the different pacings of chord changes, and learn from your observations


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 16, 2009)

Looking at chords on a cue sheet is seeing things vertically. Viewing it progressively as it relates to the score in time is seeing it horizontally. One method is being able to see both as it relates to your composition - the melodic notes in time (horizontal) and subsequent harmonic structures you want to assign to the notes. 

In the little amount of time I've spent with EIS has changed my thinking in ways that was not expected. In a way, EIS is a bit like looking at everything horizontally because each of the voicings that make up harmonic structures (chords) are all written like individual melodies. This makes it far less boring to individual performers than receiving scores where the composer is essentially doing so-called "football pads" of block chords going to more block chords. In EIS, the result of the composition in motion is having 3 or 4 "melodies" which eventually meet one another in ways that is musically interesting and form simple and complex harmonic structures. We see them as progressions - music in motion - rather than a cool chord here or there. Simple poly-structures can be achieved by changing the root note. Bi-tonality - where two keys are blended together - is fairly intuitive in EIS because every root tone is a tonic therefore easier to see the key relationships and shared notes from each root tone. 

Regarding arrangements, I think your melody and bass root tones will pretty much help provide a blueprint to define where the progression goes from there. Its also important to study regular song structure - verse, bridge, chorus / beginning, middle and end - which is a good starting point for many compositions. Hope this helps a little.


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## David Story (Oct 16, 2009)

The speed of chord changes gives character and style to the music. A pattern to changes helps make music accessible. That's harmonic rhythm.

A fast harmonic rhythm is more classical, or jazz; slow more baroque or pop. One chord per bar is a place to start. 

It's really your taste that sets the pace and rhythm.

In film, slow harmonic change is the norm. When emotion heats up, change faster, or even slower.

This is good to watch for in studying scores. Hope that helps.


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## lee (Oct 16, 2009)

You should really trust your own opinion, try different ways and experiment. 

Sometimes I like to compose melodies, "motifs", and perhaps have harmonies to support them in mind while composing them, or try different chords after the initial melodic idea has been created. That way I test different "chord changing speeds" and see what I like.

Sometimes I compose just harmonies at the very start, and can add melodies or arpeggios over the chords. Then, maybe if the melody I want to use over the harmonies just doesnt sound right, I can try change the chords, maybe add chord changes to support the melody.

Dont know if this is any useful to you, but I still think you should trust your own judgement, and develop your own techniques.

/Johnny


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## bryla (Oct 16, 2009)

David Story @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> A fast harmonic rhythm is more classical, or jazz; slow more baroque or pop.


Really? Modal jazz? What kind of classical? Restrain chord pacings to genre is really narrowminded, and historically wrong.



> It's really your taste that sets the pace and rhythm.


yes!



> In film, slow harmonic change is the norm. When emotion heats up, change faster, or even slower


If slow is the norm how come change faster? Then there is no norm? You're contradicting yourself. Home Alone by John Williams are great examples of the opposite of the last quote. Slow passages with quick chord pacings, and when it heats up the pacing is one chord per 2 bars sometimes.

as lee said: Try writing a melody of 8 bars. Then write chord changes every 2 bars. Then every bar. 2 per bar and one on each beat. Observe how it affects your perception of the melody


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## Johnny22 (Oct 16, 2009)

Wow, this is really helpful, really great tips guys.

I like the idea of 8 bar melody and then experimenting with different chord changes and see and hear how it changes the perception of the melody/piece.
Good exercise


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## Daniel James (Oct 16, 2009)

haha when I compose I hardly think about how long I have been holding a chord, I tend to have a melodic or rhythmic idea then just harmonize as I go :D

Dan


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 16, 2009)

"In film, slow harmonic change is the norm"

...when you're staying out of the way!


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## bryla (Oct 16, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> "In film, slow harmonic change is the norm"
> 
> ...when you're staying out of the way!


Again Home Alone shows that you can stay out of the way and have chord pacings on even every 8th note!


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## David Story (Oct 16, 2009)

Common practices are a good place to begin.

No rules, just an observation that slow change is a common technique in film.

Main titles often have a one chord per bar pattern, as a place to deviate from later.

@bryla I agree, I said " change faster, or even slower". That covers Home Alone.
It's the change from an expected pattern that triggers emotion in this technique.

Style and harmonic rhythm are linked. It's Walter Piston's idea, and I agree. To learn more: http://tinyurl.com/yljdl8l or Piston's books.

also sprach zarathustra has slow changes, yet doesn't stay out of the way. Bioshock uses aleatoric music, and stays in the background. But those are exceptions.

The 8 bar reharm is fun at the piano, it's a good way to develop themes.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 16, 2009)

I don't know that score, Thomas, but of course. The norm is only the norm!


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## mf (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm sorry Johnny but that was a very bad question. It is like asking: how often should I change the notes in my melody? You don't ask such things; if you do, maybe writing music is not for you.

The question is not WHEN to change chords but WHY change them. And there are only two reasons for doing that: either because you have to (the piece asks for it), or with a clear purpose in mind (e.g. "I want tension now.") You never change chords just to change them ("more often, less often," etc). Chord changes are not goals in themselves but only means to this goal: make good music.

Make good music.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 16, 2009)

That's like asking, how often should I breathe? It's the same for chords, when they need to breathe is usually a good time to change.


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## gsilbers (Oct 16, 2009)

Johnny22 @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> Wow, this is really helpful, really great tips guys.
> 
> I like the idea of 8 bar melody and then experimenting with different chord changes and see and hear how it changes the perception of the melody/piece.
> Good exercise




again, 

check out the smalley composing for film book. it has that answer u are looking for.


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## mf (Oct 16, 2009)

gsilbers @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> check out the smalley composing for film book. it has that answer u are looking for.


No kiddin, does that book answer to "how often should I change my chords?" Does it also answer to "how often should I change my notes?" I've heard great tunes of 3min of one unchanged chord, great tunes with 2 chord changes per second (well, at least in some passages), and everything in between, plus some chordless film music. There is no rule whatsoever. What does smalley know about the reasons behind chaging or not changing chords in a quasi-infinity of cases? How can he possibly prescribe such a thing as "the chord change rate?"


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## gsilbers (Oct 16, 2009)

mf @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> gsilbers @ Fri Oct 16 said:
> 
> 
> > check out the smalley composing for film book. it has that answer u are looking for.
> ...



yes. and also gives you the meaning of life. 

to really answer to your silly and obnoxious comment; the book provides a guideline of common practices in film scores which one of them will involve your question about cues with no chord changes as well why it seems there is so many chord changes other times. 
it also follows closely the idea of EIS approach of music as well as other good stuff that if you haven't read and have immature attitude, there is no sense to continue with it. specially that that the main point of the book responds to your whole post.


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## rJames (Oct 16, 2009)

Never change your chords. It makes composing so much easier.


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## mf (Oct 16, 2009)

gsilbers, be nice, getting personal and resorting to insults doesn't make your point any more convincing. What I was saying is that there is no way in hell that Johnny's question can be answered, as you claimed. "How often to change chords" is simply a wrong, unmusical way to think. This is the first thing that needs to be straighten up; then, listening to LOTS of different types of music and trying to figure out how chord relations are used in different styles and purposes; then, applying that first-hand acquired knowledge in one's own music; and only then, if at all, reading books that attempt to figure out things for you. I don't think Johnny needs at this point any preconceived views to be poured into his head before he's made up his mind for himself.

And, gsilbers - since our opinions on this are clearly different, that is a good reason to make proof of civility instead of flaming up.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 16, 2009)

It's not clear if he's asking about film scoring or in general. If it's in general, I agree that it's a question that cannot be answered, period!

If it's for film scoring I imagine some people could have their own theories on that.


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## StrangeCat (Oct 16, 2009)

Johnny22 @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> Hello Mates
> 
> Perhaps a silly question, but are there general rules/ideas concerning how often to change chords in a composition, e.g. I am not advanced in composing, but when I try to write a short piece for my lessons/fun, I often change chords after one or two measures.
> 
> ...



yes there rules! There are books on harmony that span a 1000 pages, then there fake books on jazz harmony that make up "all song writing harmonic language."

What style are you composing for your lessons?

your question is insanely deep and complex. 

has to do with period construction, phrases, emotion, and ton of other things.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 16, 2009)

If I'd had to follow rules when to change chords, I'd given up composing a long time ago. I remember Burt Bacharach saying at one time in his career he would try and follow the traditional rules about writing songs, like making 8 bar melodies, and he said, when he would try doing that, things never worked out the way he wanted and it got discouraging more than anything, so as soon as he gave up that idea and instead did what he wanted, that's when he started writing great songs. One of the greatest songs ever written is a 7 bar melody "Yesterday". So rules can be good but can also block you, you have to be careful with that.


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## gsilbers (Oct 16, 2009)

mf @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> gsilbers, be nice, getting personal and resorting to insults doesn't make your point any more convincing. What I was saying is that there is no way in hell that Johnny's question can be answered, as you claimed. "How often to change chords" is simply a wrong, unmusical way to think. This is the first thing that needs to be straighten up; then, listening to LOTS of different types of music and trying to figure out how chord relations are used in different styles and purposes; then, applying that first-hand acquired knowledge in one's own music; and only then, if at all, reading books that attempt to figure out things for you. I don't think Johnny needs any preconceived views to be poured into his head before he's made his mind for himself.
> 
> And, gsilbers - since our opinions on this are clearly different, that is a good reason to make proof of civility instead of flaming up.




oh i wasent flaming up. i thought u where and where instigating 


yes i agree that there is no rule and its about learning by listening and be your own guide to when to do chord changes or melody etc. 

all i am saying is that i had similar questions.. specially regarding theory in film music i couldnt figure it out and i studied some film scores. 
and when i tried to do my own i fell short or just was throwing arrows in the air. 
even that i went to berklee (but didnt do filmscore. )

one of the things i learned sadly at the end of it was that you can do anything you want as long as you know what your doing. and its also something that its on smalleys book. there are no rules just guidelines. 

but it gave an eye opener of why harmony sounded that way and even though it didnt say exactly about chord changes it mentions little tricks about the reason u would want a static melody or not and how to harmonize it. thus the chords may or not may follow and why it be a good idea to do so or not. 
i think now that i read that book i can understand better the filmscores i am studying and thinking too myself...oh thats what the composers is doing"

i also wanted to take it a step further of the same routine of .. there are no rules in music u can do whatver etc etc and kinda guide the OP to that bookwhich kinda answers those and many more questions regarding filmscores music. becasue a question like that spells out "kinda lost in this thing" even though he might be a good composer and musician but its the singularity of film music that its a bit hard to grasp specially because it has the "anything goes approach" 

sorry it seemed i flamed up i thought ur just trolling..


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## rJames (Oct 16, 2009)

Are we talking about Hans Zimmer's rules or John William's rules?


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 16, 2009)

rJames @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> Are we talking about Hans Zimmer's rules or John William's rules?



The question is too vague, the author should narrow it down (by a lot)


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## StrangeCat (Oct 16, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> If I'd had to follow rules when to change chords, I'd given up composing a long time ago. I remember Burt Bacharach saying at one time in his career he would try and follow the traditional rules about writing songs, like making 8 bar melodies, and he said, when he would try doing that, things never worked out the way he wanted and it got discouraging more than anything, so as soon as he gave up that idea and instead did what he wanted, that's when he started writing great songs. One of the greatest songs ever written is a 7 bar melody "Yesterday". So rules can be good but can also block you, you have to be careful with that.



which is basic fake book harmony *Yesterday*

I think a composer should be able to compose in any style adding there own voice since all music is related. This goes for jazz too, which then makes up all the basic songs and there harmonies(CM, C7, emSus4, Em7, Am7 etc....


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## StrangeCat (Oct 16, 2009)

mf @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> I'm sorry Johnny but that was a very bad question. It is like asking: how often should I change the notes in my melody? You don't ask such things; if you do, maybe writing music is not for you.
> 
> The question is not WHEN to change chords but WHY change them. And there are only two reasons for doing that: either because you have to (the piece asks for it), or with a clear purpose in mind (e.g. "I want tension now.") You never change chords just to change them ("more often, less often," etc). Chord changes are not goals in themselves but only means to this goal: make good music.
> 
> Make good music.



God I wouldn't even have replied if I saw your post! Great!
Thanks!


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 16, 2009)

Didn't John Lenon write a song with the same chord through out?


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## StrangeCat (Oct 16, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> Didn't John Lenon write a song with the same chord through out?



I don't know but I think I'll check that out! He does have nice song writing contest every year though!


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## mf (Oct 16, 2009)

Tomorrow Never Knows

A keyboard, the screen, finger strokes, words lining up, the shutdown button; then nothing...


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## StrangeCat (Oct 16, 2009)

mf @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> Tomorrow Never Knows
> 
> A keyboard, the screen, finger strokes, words lining up, the shutdown button; then nothing...



quick wit is a good thing.

If I was doing LSD....one note full song.....drone......

I prefer White Rabbit.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 16, 2009)

Yeah, I didn't think it was one of his better songs.


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## StrangeCat (Oct 16, 2009)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Oct 16 said:


> Yeah, I didn't think it was one of his better songs.



The song absolutely sucks on so many levels I don't know where to began you can tell drugs were involved. 

Ambient music which was taken from Ethnic styles like music from India where one note, a drone that holds the whole piece together, is a lot of times built apon one chord or two for the entire song.

If you have a pad that evolves to all these sounds and fills the stereo spectrum then just one note of that pad can do it for a whole piece. This more of a Pedal tone taken from classical music. Classical style or The style Minimalism.

Minimalism derived from these Indian style pieces and other Ethnic pieces with there drones does not use a lot of chord changes. It's supposed to be a more simplistic style. 

With a Minimalism style if you were composing in that style, then yea, one chord could hold the whole piece. This could apply to tons of Electronic music atmospheric music and all that. 

and yes it has been done many many times, tons and tons of films.

This is why the whole changing chords question is to damn hard to answer Johnny22.
It has to do with what you are writing for and what you are writing.


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## Jaap (Oct 17, 2009)

42


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## bryla (Oct 17, 2009)

Jaap @ Sat Oct 17 said:


> 42


obviously! It's the answer to EVERYTHING! :lol:


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## Lex (Oct 17, 2009)

I change my chords every Tuesday and Friday...Saturday on public holidays.

Its the only way for true pros...

aLex


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## billval3 (Oct 17, 2009)

Guys, I stopped reading this thread about halfway through. If a beginner wants to ask a very basic question that you feel is beneath you, why not just ignore it? Sometimes people just need a little hand-holding. Is that really so bad?

While there are no rules set in stone, there are always general guidelines that beginning composers may or may not find helpful. That's all he's asking for.

And if you want to give some advice as to why there really are no rules about something, why not just do it politely...in an encouraging way? If the original question was asked in a rude way, I could understand a rude response.

Okay, I'll get off my high horse now.


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## rJames (Oct 17, 2009)

billval3 @ Sat Oct 17 said:


> Guys, I stopped reading this thread about halfway through. If a beginner wants to ask a very basic question that you feel is beneath you, why not just ignore it? Sometimes people just need a little hand-holding. Is that really so bad?
> 
> While there are no rules set in stone, there are always general guidelines that beginning composers may or may not find helpful. That's all he's asking for.
> 
> ...



I don't know about that. Seems to me the answer is pretty clear. And, as is often the case here at VI, it lies in the diversity of answers.

It depends on who's listening.


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## Johnny22 (Oct 17, 2009)

It's a shame that people make fun of this thread, I feel sorry for all of you.

I'm trying to learn here, I don't need your arrogance, ''you professionals''. 

I want to thank everybody who took my question seriously, but I am really upset with those other people, why all these negative humor, you think you are better than me, no you're not, you were once also a beginner, so have some understanding for other people.

I thought this was a serious place for musicians helping musicians, so I asked a ''silly'' question, so what???

You really motivate people like me, to ask for help ..... NOT !!!!!


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## rJames (Oct 17, 2009)

Since you want to get all serious on us, I'll give you a serious answer.

If you don't have the time to listen to the style of music that you want to emulate; be it pop, movie thriller, movie adventure, salsa, reggae, or whatever; for when the chord changes, you have no right to be asking the question!

If you are asking a serious question, narrow it down a little for us. OK?

Use your ears. Even my constantly ringing ears can hear when a chord changes in a song.

Public forum, public responses; PM, private responses.

Interesting that you would feel sad for people having fun in a public forum. Is that sad or am I just being sarcastic?

If I were going to make fun, it would be about your avatar, not about you!


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## germancomponist (Oct 17, 2009)

Johnny22,

I think this thread is not a bad thread. 

You got some good answers and, of course, some jokings. How could someone answer to your question yet?

How many chords I use depends very often on the melodie. You can play different and unexpected chords as a dramazic thing. You can also get a cool daramatic piece with only one chord.

Experiment! o-[][]-o 

Gunther


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## Johnny22 (Oct 17, 2009)

rJames just NEVER give me your advice OK

I don't need advice from people like YOU.

I have nothing more to say to you !!!!!!!!! Ever !!!!!!


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## bryla (Oct 17, 2009)

It seems to me your question was answered many times, in many different ways on the first page, and then people just started chatting about related stuff. Just ignore what's not suited for you.

You have been encouraged to narrow your question down a couple of times, and maybe you should do that to get you going in the direction you need now, since as you can see, there are several ways to deal with this subject.

btw: change the tone, or no one will help you. Especially since rJames is right with this:
"If you don't have the time to listen to the style of music that you want to emulate; be it pop, movie thriller, movie adventure, salsa, reggae, or whatever; for when the chord changes, you have no right to be asking the question!"


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## Johnny22 (Oct 17, 2009)

He has no right, NO ONE HAS right for making me stupid or someone else, I hate it, I understand HUMOR, but this is just making less of people

So I get angry, and I say Bad things, so those people can FEEL how it feels

I am not sorry for saying those things, if the moderator can't accept me for being honest and just do what they do, making less of me, than go a head, BAN ME

I have 99 posts, READ THEM, i was always NICE TO everyone, and what do I get

people (NOT ALL) making FUN of me and making me feel less, this is NOT right !!!!!!!


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## bryla (Oct 17, 2009)

And people have been nice to you. Why let a couple of bad apples ruin the pie?

And some Indian philosophy (hope I get this right): demanding what you think you deserve only let's you not see what's being given to you that you didn't think you deserved.


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## germancomponist (Oct 17, 2009)

Johnny22 @ Sat Oct 17 said:


> He has no right, NO ONE HAS right for making me stupid or someone else, I hate it, I understand HUMOR, but this is just making less of people
> 
> So I get angry, and I say Bad things, so those people can FEEL how it feels
> 
> ...



Such things you wrote here are unacceptable!

I have never read such words here in a thread. Yes, if I were a moderator, I would write to you a big mail!

The reason why I moved from german forums to american is exactly this tongue you used.


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## Johnny22 (Oct 17, 2009)

Go ahead and BAN me, so what???

I don't do this for a living, I study and play music because I like it and have a lot of fun with it.

I have been a very nice member, but I will NEVER accept people making less of me, NEVER !!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 17, 2009)

Johnny, why don't you just stop paying attention to people who are making fun of your post, and just listen to Frederick. I think he was very helpful. All you have to do is say, "thank you, Fred", and move on from this thread unsubscribe from it). Everything else is just noise. You don't have to respond or pay attention to people having fun if you don't want to. 



Frederick Russ @ 16/10/2009 said:


> Looking at chords on a cue sheet is seeing things vertically. Viewing it progressively as it relates to the score in time is seeing it horizontally. One method is being able to see both as it relates to your composition - the melodic notes in time (horizontal) and subsequent harmonic structures you want to assign to the notes.
> 
> In the little amount of time I've spent with EIS has changed my thinking in ways that was not expected. In a way, EIS is a bit like looking at everything horizontally because each of the voicings that make up harmonic structures (chords) are all written like individual melodies. This makes it far less boring to individual performers than receiving scores where the composer is essentially doing so-called "football pads" of block chords going to more block chords. In EIS, the result of the composition in motion is having 3 or 4 "melodies" which eventually meet one another in ways that is musically interesting and form simple and complex harmonic structures. We see them as progressions - music in motion - rather than a cool chord here or there. Simple poly-structures can be achieved by changing the root note. Bi-tonality - where two keys are blended together - is fairly intuitive in EIS because every root tone is a tonic therefore easier to see the key relationships and shared notes from each root tone.
> 
> Regarding arrangements, I think your melody and bass root tones will pretty much help provide a blueprint to define where the progression goes from there. Its also important to study regular song structure - verse, bridge, chorus / beginning, middle and end - which is a good starting point for many compositions. Hope this helps a little.


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## germancomponist (Oct 17, 2009)

Johnny22 @ Sat Oct 17 said:


> ..., I study and play music because I like it and have a lot of fun with it.



So when you study again music you can get your answer to your question about chords without asking in a forum. :mrgreen:

Ha, I like joking! o/~


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 17, 2009)

Gunther, that was very childish of you. :evil:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 17, 2009)

I am going to lock this thread until cooler heads prevail. There's no room at VI for calling someone a Nazi, and some of you should think about the damage you make by making fun of one of our members like that.


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## germancomponist (Oct 17, 2009)

Yes, I know. I wanted to be childish.


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 17, 2009)

Hey Johnny, 

Before you rush to disagree with me, take a moment to hear me out. I have dealt with the diversity of differing backgrounds from many forum members daily over many years and its amazing we don't have more conflict than we do. 

One of the main problems with having a public forum is that it is very easy for members to misunderstand the intent of the posts and comments offered. I happen to know a few of the people who have responded - and know them well enough that to know that they are not meaning malice against you personally. My feeling is that you are taking whatever is being said way too personally and seeing jokes as being about you rather than what they are - simple jokes, period. 

Our moderation team does whatever it can to prevent attacks on people but in this particular case this is not about you - perhaps the question was too broad and people are giving you some old-fashioned ribbing but its never ever intended to be taken personally. 

What happened on this thread isn't something that was intended to target you. In my case I have honestly tried to help you but essentially gave you a relatively broad answer to a broad question.

Best,

Frederick

Edit: All that said, there's absolutely no valid reason for making racist comments on any public forum. Who needs that?


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