# Transposed score - meaning what exactly?



## erica-grace (Aug 1, 2016)

Hi 
A little confused here. If a score says "transposed score" - do the transposing instruments (clarinet, f.horn, etc) transpose? Or do they transpose when the score doesn't specify, and not transpose when it says "transposed score"? HELP!!!!


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## JohnBMears (Aug 1, 2016)

First musicians don't read off a score so those instructions aren't for them but for the conductor. Transposed scores would reflect what each musician sees on their part. So a Bb Trumpet would have a C written when a concert Bb is desired. Conversely a concert score would show the trumpet note (in this case) as a Bb on the staff.


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## erica-grace (Aug 1, 2016)

Thank you for the response.




JohnBMears said:


> First musicians don't read off a score



No? Don't they read the music off of the parts that they have in front of them? Well, of course they do! How else would they know what to play??? 

So, it appears as tho when the score says, "transposed score", the instruments do actually transpose, right? Then, does "concert score" mean as written?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 1, 2016)

Concert score means the score shows for example middle C for the trumpet, even though the trumpet will need to play D to produce that note and that is what he will see on his part.


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## mverta (Aug 1, 2016)

Transposed score = the written notes the musicians play. Concert score = the actual notes you end up hearing. If you want to hear the note C on a (Bb) trumpet, you have to write a major 2nd higher, D. So on a transposed score, you'd see a D on the trumpet part - the same note the trumpet player sees on his sheet music. But in the room, you would both HEAR a C. Of course, with instruments like strings and trombones, there is no transposition. The note you write is the note they play is the note you hear. When conducting off of a transposed score, you have to be able to "think" the transpositions in realtime, which most people think is a drawback. In truth, it takes only a bit of practice to master, it puts you more in touch with the players, and gives you an important cred in the room. Very few scores are transposed anymore; they're almost all concert scores. Almost nobody before and including Williams, Goldsmith, Horner, et. al used concert scores.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 1, 2016)

I was trained with concert scores but when I studied with Albert Harris in the seventies he encouraged me to get used to transposed score, because in Hollywood it was the norm at that time MI can deal with either.


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## erica-grace (Aug 1, 2016)

Thanks guys! 

Ok, so "transposed score" is when the instruments transpose - check!

So, here is what I don't get, now. If the conductor's score says "transposed score", but the player's parts do not, how do the players know to transpose? Do they have to rely on the conductor telling them?

And Mike, when you say "When conducting off of a transposed score, you have to be able to "think" the transpositions in realtime," - is that to say the conductor needs to recognize that the players are playing the porper pitches? I would think that that is really more the responsibility of the players, no?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 1, 2016)

Again, the note is middle C, but the trumpet player sees D because he plays a Bb instrument, so to play middle C that is what he needs to see and play. 

If the conductor is working with a transposed score, he too sees the D where on a concert score he sees a C.


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## mverta (Aug 1, 2016)

The players' parts are always in their native transpositions. The trumpet player just sees a D on his part, and he plays a D. What comes out of his trumpet, though, is the sound of the note C. On your transposed score, you see a D, too. Everybody hears a C, everybody's looking at a D. If your score was Concert Pitch, then only the trumpet player would be seeing a D. You'd see a C on your score, and everybody would hear a C. The downside of this can be if you hear a wrong note, you might say, "Trumpet, bar 45 beat 1 should be an E," which could lead to him asking, "Written E or Concert E?" You can get around this by saying "Concert E" right off. But if they know you know your stuff, then typically you're working off a transposed score, whose written notes already match everybody's written notes in the room, and your'e already giving them the WRITTEN note they should play - the transposed note - knowing full well it will sound a step lower. "Thinking" the transposition just means that you can see a transposed note on the page, but already hear/think the actual note it will sound like in the room. 

A stacked Cmajor triad for Trumpets and Trombones, on a transposed score, would look like a C chord in the Trombones, with a D chord on top in the Trumpets. It'll look like that on their sheet music, too. But in your head you know it only SAYS D for the Trumpets... it'll actually sound as a C. The Trombones have no transposition, so they'll sound like a C right off, anyway.

Make sense?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 1, 2016)

Stop paraphrasing me, Verta


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## erica-grace (Aug 1, 2016)

Ok, I think i get it. But wait....



Ashermusic said:


> Again, the note is middle C, but the trumpet player sees D because he plays a Bb instrument, so to play middle C that is what he needs to see and play.



So, that's for a transposing score, right? What if it's a concert score? If the note is middle C, the trumpet player sees C, right?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 1, 2016)

No, the trumpet player doesn't see the score, transposed or concert, just his part and he needs to see a D and play a D for the same middle C a piano plays.


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## JohnG (Aug 1, 2016)

Even in a so-called "concert score," a number of octave transposing instruments, like piccolo, actually are not shown on the score where they sound. Piccolo is written an octave below where it sounds. Some low instruments, like contrabass and contrabassoon are written an octave above where they sound. Otherwise you have to show too many ledger lines.

I haven't seen a transposed score at a TV or film job in forever. It's nice to be musically literate and know all this but even better to write really great music.


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## Ashermusic (Aug 1, 2016)

JohnG said:


> It's nice to be musically literate and know all this but even better to write really great music.



I wasn't aware it was an either/or proposition  

Anyway, i think it is six of one half a a dozen of the other as when a player plays a wrong note on a transposing intrument, any conductor knows how to see which note he should be playing either way.


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## erica-grace (Aug 1, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> No, the trumpet player doesn't see the score,



I am not understanding this "players do not see the score" thing. Aren't they looking at sheet music when they play? 



Ashermusic said:


> just his part and he needs to see a D and play a D for the same middle C a piano plays.



So, if it's a concert score, then the instruments transpose there as well?


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## Ashermusic (Aug 1, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> I am not understanding this "players do not see the score" thing. Aren't they looking at sheet music when they play?
> 
> So, if it's a concert score, then the instruments transpose there as well?



The player sees only his part, not the full score. No, if it is a concert score it reflects the actual pitch. In a transposed score "the instruments transpose there as well."


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## erica-grace (Aug 1, 2016)

Ok, so if it is a concert score, the score and parts are then not the same?


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## mverta (Aug 1, 2016)

Correct.


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## Rodney Money (Aug 1, 2016)

I just like to say I absolutely despise both concert scores and even worse reduce scores. Give me a transposed score any day showing me exactly what the players and/ or singers see. Just like with anything else, you do it enough it becomes second nature. I don't even feel anxiety sight-reading a score in front of an ensemble, (and on a side note, I absolutely love conducting slow, moving, rubato, expressive music.) Eventually you get to the point, like today for example, that when working with Eb Alto Saxes you can take out your Bb Flugelhorn and sight-read their part while transposing simultaneously.


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## erica-grace (Aug 2, 2016)

mverta said:


> Correct.



Oh wow. 

Ok, thank you for all of the replies!


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## SillyMidOn (Aug 2, 2016)

When I used to be a jazz performer, it was quite common to have to transpose at sight, over any interval. There were some things that commonly cropped up, so as a pianist you might be given a tpt/ten sax part in Bb, so you'd transpose that "back" to concert, or an Alto Sax part in Eb. Conversely Tpt/Sax players can easily read Concert parts and transpose them at sight, so basically the most common thing you would come across was transposing by a tone or major 6th (minor 3rd whichever you find easier).

What was a bit more of a pain was when you played with singers, and very rarely would the part they have actually suit their range, so you were often transposing more unusual intervals: tritones, minor 6ths, etc, but what really got irritating was when they could not settle on a key, so they kept changing back and forth by a semitone, so as an example fist transposing by a tritone, then they'd say, "ah no, it's a bit too low, let's try a perfect 5th (semitone higher)", so then you'd try the piece again a perfect 5th higher than the concert score. Then they'd go "ah no, that's a bit too high, let's go back down" .... I remember one particular rehearsal session where this went on for ages with the same piece, back and forth. Me and the bass player looked at each other with wearied looks of resignation.

Even the drummer started getting bored. Hahaha.


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