# Have you ever written a sfx for full orchestra on paper?



## germancomponist (May 26, 2011)

Last year I had a very interesting talk with a well known sample library producer. We talked about orchestra sfx. He told me: "You have to write all the notes what you hear in your head on paper."

Nowdays new libs will come with very cool sounding orchestra sfx.

My question: Have you ever written a sfx for full orchestra on paper?

Have you experimented with your libraries to get a cool sounding sfx?


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## Dominik Raab (May 26, 2011)

Orchestral SFX are one reason why I hate Cinesamples' decision to include their Notation View feature only for their scales patches in Hollywoodwinds.
All those neat little Chordal Tremolos, Bendings etc. are not available in Notation View. Dear god, THAT would have made it easier to create notation sheets of your compositions - at least for the woodwinds.


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## bryla (May 27, 2011)

I have - unfortunately I clicked "no" :(

I have had succes with using symbols and descriptions of a sound I wanted.


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## nikolas (May 27, 2011)

Yes I have but only for those works to be performed live, otherwise I usually don't even use a score!


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## Guy Bacos (May 27, 2011)

Gunther, what does sfx mean?


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## doubleattack (May 27, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Fri 27 May said:


> Gunther, what does sfx mean?



super-effects, strong effects, small effects, stupid effects... :lol: 

Who knows in this world of shortcuts, acronyms and abbrevations... :roll: 

(LOL and ROLL)


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## Ed (May 27, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Fri May 27 said:


> Gunther, what does sfx mean?



Sound FX. Or Special FX.


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## David Story (May 27, 2011)

Yes, several times. From small groups to full orchestra. A clear description is better than complex notation. 

You do want to notate dynamics, pitch range, direction, speed, timbre. A lot depends on if the players are used to playing effects. Allow time for several takes.
Balance is key, like any orchestration.

It can sound much better than a library effect.

I also mangle libraries to make sfx, and sometime will take live fx and process them too


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## Guy Bacos (May 27, 2011)

FX, yeah okay, somehow seeing it in small letters sfx threw me off, looked more like sfortzando sfz to me :D


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## germancomponist (May 27, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Fri May 27 said:


> Gunther, what does sfx mean?



I mean something like this: http://www.box.net/shared/mgop21tp8o


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## Ed (May 27, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri May 27 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Fri May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Gunther, what does sfx mean?
> ...



Hehe Symphonic Adventures.... probanbly not allowed to post such bare examples though... 

Great fx in Symphonic Adventures, shame they are so iconic now. Weird thing is X-Files Movie (first one) used one basically totally bare at the start!


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## germancomponist (May 27, 2011)

Ed @ Fri May 27 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Bacos @ Fri May 27 said:
> ...



Yes, Symphonic Adventures. Hm, do you think I am not allowed to post this example? Isn`t it a good advertisting for them? 

I had used this awesome lib very often in the past. I think it is very hard to notate such kind of fx for orchestra.


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## JJP (May 27, 2011)

germancomponist @ Fri May 27 said:


> I think it is very hard to notate such kind of fx for orchestra.


Upon a quick listen, it sounds like there's nothing particularly difficult to notate in there. Some of those clusters can be a little difficult to transcribe, but not impossible.

The hard part is when you get into the studio and someone wants it to sound EXACTLY like the sampled recording. Many effect techniques have a slight random element to them and they don't sound exactly the same every time.


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## germancomponist (May 28, 2011)

Yeah, I think it depends also of the players creativeness and the conductors. Orchestra SFX is very special.

My examples are more easy, but when I think about to score my ideas only out of my head.... . I think, for this genre it is very good to have librarys with what we can experiment.


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## germancomponist (May 28, 2011)

Perhaps someone can post an example of a very cool sounding orchestra fx, what was written only out of his/her head?


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## David Story (May 28, 2011)

Here's a live string session that's processed:
http://tinyurl.com/3z9ny2u


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## germancomponist (May 28, 2011)

David Story @ Sat May 28 said:


> Here's a live string session that's processed:
> http://tinyurl.com/3z9ny2u



Very cool!


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## germancomponist (May 28, 2011)

11 votes for "yes".

So please, can these voters post a link?


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## Pietro (May 29, 2011)

Not exactly on paper, but in Sibelius . Yes, I have. Lot of them.

Check out Sonokinetic Tutti, it includes exact score view for all effects (just mind, that the score is copyrighted).

There are things you can write in a classical way, and some that may need verbal explanation. You can also use your own symbols or graphics and include a custom explanation sheet for each musician. Works great. And everything is allowed as long as it is clear for musicians.

- Piotr


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## bryla (May 29, 2011)

Piotrek you should know this, but the Polish publisher PWM has a helluva lot of modern scores (for $5 a piece usually) from the great polish composers of the 20th century. They are worth a study, if you are interested in sfx's


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## Pietro (May 29, 2011)

Thanks, good to know.

But as a classically trained percussionist, I believe I've had enough studying and playing contemporary stuff. We had modern music festivals twice a year, which we always had to take part of .

- Piotr


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## musicpete (May 29, 2011)

germancomponist @ 28.5.2011 said:


> 11 votes for "yes".
> 
> So please, can these voters post a link?



Most of my stuff is in Sibelius or on some handwritten jotted down notes. I only have this one prepared for printing in a more or less acceptable manner. There are some effects sprinkled in throughout:

http://www.abovethestaff.net/files/Anal ... e-L1f3.pdf


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## doubleattack (May 31, 2011)

That's a well made score, Peter! I don't have Sibelius, but don't want to thing about how long will it need to get such a tidy score. I think it's much more faster done hand-written or not? Just curious!
Thanks for posting this!

Frank


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## germancomponist (May 31, 2011)

doubleattack @ Tue May 31 said:


> That's a well made score, Peter! ..
> Thanks for posting this!
> 
> Frank



+1


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## bryla (May 31, 2011)

I posted a recording of this as well some moons ago:

http://www.thomas.bryla.dk/sted/music_f ... la2sec.pdf


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## nikolas (May 31, 2011)

Here's a violin duet I did quite some time ago. Not with clusers, but with plenty of gliss.

http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/stuff/mfl.pdf (www.nikolas-sideris.com/stuff/mfl.pdf)

and this one

http://www.nikolas-sideris.com/stuff/exeliksis.pdf (www.nikolas-sideris.com/stuff/exeliksis.pdf)

There are others but I can't share, sorry...


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## nikolas (May 31, 2011)

doubleattack @ Tue May 31 said:


> That's a well made score, Peter! I don't have Sibelius, but don't want to thing about how long will it need to get such a tidy score. I think it's much more faster done hand-written or not? Just curious!
> Thanks for posting this!
> 
> Frank


Frank,

In order to produce a hand written score THAT tidy you need tons of time. Perhaps some graphic elements are a bit tiresome to create (at least in Finale they are, because I don't use Siblieus), but honestly even when drafting or composing with manuscript and pencil I think the result goes slower than copying it to Finale!

It certainly is not as complicated as Pete's work but both works I presented were composed AND copied to Finale in less than a week. I think exeliksis was a single day, while MFL was a few hours, and a bit more for the glissandi there (first time I did those in Finale, back in 2004)


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## PoppaJimmy (May 31, 2011)

doubleattack @ Tue May 31 said:


> That's a well made score, Peter! I don't have Sibelius, but don't want to thing about how long will it need to get such a tidy score. I think it's much more faster done hand-written or not? Just curious!
> Thanks for posting this!
> 
> Frank



I hope I'm not hijacking the thread with the following. I started using Sib a bit more than 5 yrs ago after a lifetime of hand notation. I do full orchestra scores and all types of arrangements for stage shows and various performers. 

I was worried about the same thing at first but it turns out I can easily do scores very fast and and accurately with Sibelius. The scores and parts are used regularly by pro session musicians and orchestra musicians as well as conductors with no problems at all.

The other factor is that, since I'm hearing as I'm writing, there are very, very few mistakes in the scores and, since the parts are precise copies of the score, I can be certain of what the players are getting.

Learning the programs is easy and fast. Within a week I was doing full scores, slowly at first but, since I have to do it all the time, after a while, it became second nature and I got very facile at it.

I find that I have become more precise and detailed in my scores and, if I use a copyist, h/his job is much easier even if s/he uses Finale rather than Sib. since I'm sending clean scores and XML files which, again means fewer mistakes and faster turn around. In some cases, I can do the parts myself which means I can take some jobs I otherwise wouldn't because I'd have to do the parts by hand (which seriously sucks unless you're into that sort of thing).

So far, I haven't run into anything I can't figure out how to say although now and again it takes some creative thinking. I don't do heavy sfx but the few I have used have been no problem.

All of that is to say that, for me, using a notation program has seriously aided virtually every aspect of my job. It has not slowed me down at all. In fact, I would have to say just the opposite is true.

That's my experience anyway.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## JimmyPoppa (Jun 1, 2011)

Peter, Nikolas, Bryla,

How do you set things up to be able to post links to those pdf scores? Thanks.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## nikolas (Jun 1, 2011)

If you google "PDF driver" you should get tons of links that do that. One of the free programs that do that is 'primo PDF'. You go to 'print' the score and instead of sending it to a printer, you send it to the software (driver), thus creating the PDF file, as it would look on paper.


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## JimmyPoppa (Jun 1, 2011)

nikolas @ Wed Jun 01 said:


> If you google "PDF driver" you should get tons of links that do that. One of the free programs that do that is 'primo PDF'. You go to 'print' the score and instead of sending it to a printer, you send it to the software (driver), thus creating the PDF file, as it would look on paper.



I think I wasn't clear with my question. I have programs that print scores as pdfs.

I meant how to place the pdf online and post it as a link in the forum. It might be simple and obvious but I don't know how to do that. Thanks.

Jimmy


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## nikolas (Jun 1, 2011)

darn! Sorry about that.

You need 'webspace'. In my case and a lot of other people's case we have our own webspace (for example http://www.nikolas-sideris.com (www.nikolas-sideris.com)) (and fred obviously owns http://www.v-control.net (www.v-control.net)). This allows us to *upload* 'anything' on the server and then link it (exactly like I did).

In your case, I'm assuming that you don't own any webspace, so here's a couple of ideas:

1. The forum should allow you to 'attach' files. Not sure of the size, but I'll talk with Fred to see if he can do something about it, if it's not possible.
2. Get your own website. It's actually very low cost. For example (spam spam spam) at www.one.com you can get webspace for around 20 euros (30$) per year! 
3. Get to one of the free webspace providers. such providers are easily found. Like www.box.net (for all kinds of files), or www.soundcloud.com (for audio files), or the more dodgy like megaupload.com, and rapidshare.com (these two are known to be used extensively by pirates, but this doesn't preclude you from using them the normal way. still I'd stay out).
4. If you want to e-mail a large file, and you can't attach it, you could use www.yousendit.com which allows you to upload up to 125 MB (I think), and thus send links to everyone.

Hope this helps and sorry for the spam nature of my post... :-/


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## doubleattack (Jun 2, 2011)

Nikolas, Jimmy, bryla,


Thanks so much for your help and advice and posting the examples!

Jimmy your last question you did, answered by Nikolas - you both did it for me! o-[][]-o 

S o o o helpful!!!


I've always made scores on computer if it's were written in a traditionell way.
Until last year - believe it or not - I sticked on my ATARI SM - with Notator SL.
(I've learned to work with it in my twentys and mostly it works, so what?)
And I've made a lot of scores and parts with it - without any problems.

Since last year I did some (traditionell) scores in Cubase and I'm quit familiar with it now, but I'm not satsfied a n d I'm afraid to learn new software again.

So I carry this old backpack in my had, but want forget it finally and now I have to decide - Sibelius or Finale. But that's for another thread, and your hints have been very valuable to me. So thanks a lot again!!

And thanks Gunther - nice thread!
Frank


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## JimmyPoppa (Jun 2, 2011)

Nikolas,

Thanks for the explanation. I have a website as well as a dropbox account (it's similar to box.net). Also use yousendit all the time. Let's see if this works. Here (hopefully) is an excerpt from a score of mine with some minor fx (to stay with the subject of the thread).

http://db.tt/L0KmpS4


Doubleattack,

IMO, a dedicated notation program such as Sibelius, Finale, Notion and others, is a great help. Just be aware that these are not, a. teaching programs - they do not teach you how to write scores, they just help you do it efficiently; b. they're not sequencing programs. While virtually all of the notation programs have options that allow you to hear the score as you write it, they were not originally concieved for sequencing and they don't sound the way your best sample library/sequencing setups do. That's not what they are for. The sounds are for reference, not really for sequencing. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## nikolas (Jun 2, 2011)

Jimmy,

It works fine. I've downloaded the 'daughters of Zeus' and it looks interesting. If I may make a comment. It appears that you've setup your page somehow 'wrong' and the copyright notice, along with something else in the bottom is simply too low and almost out of the page.


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## JimmyPoppa (Jun 2, 2011)

nikolas @ Thu Jun 02 said:


> Jimmy,
> 
> It works fine. I've downloaded the 'daughters of Zeus' and it looks interesting. If I may make a comment. It appears that you've setup your page somehow 'wrong' and the copyright notice, along with something else in the bottom is simply too low and almost out of the page.



Nikolas,

Thanks for the comment. Here, I think, is a version with those things fixed.

http://db.tt/bdxoNDE

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## johnhamilton (Jun 3, 2011)

I've written an SFX score and also a table where you write down every time frame at which a sound begins and will end, it's hard stuff but because so useful when you start scoring the stuff, saved me a lot of time!


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## PoppaJimmy (Jun 3, 2011)

johnhamilton @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> I've written an SFX score and also a table where you write down every time frame at which a sound begins and will end, it's hard stuff but because so useful when you start scoring the stuff, saved me a lot of time!



Hello John,

I don't understand what you really mean by this. Could you explain a bit further and/or post part of your score and your table?

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## musicpete (Jun 3, 2011)

germancomponist @ 31.5.2011 said:


> doubleattack @ Tue May 31 said:
> 
> 
> > That's a well made score, Peter! ..
> ...



Thank you guys! That really makes me feel better, after the disastrous response to my composition... Oh well, I can still attribute it to my bad mockup skills! :lol: IMHO that one is a really messy and not very well-done score. I've seen MUCH better scores!

Regarding the other responses: Creating the "print version" of the score actually did NOT take that long. Maybe only 5-10 hours. That isn't much! But since my music will never be performed by real musicians (maybe if I paid a lot of money for it, hehe) I reward myself with a printed conductor's score for every project I manage to finish. In the past 10 years I came up with a composition process that makes it easier:

1) Create a written sketch which outlines the details of the music. Since I have the whole piece in my head with a reasonable amount of details, I only need to take notes of the detailed structure. That can be written text or "approximated notation" (without correct pitches) or a mix of both.

2) If necessary, I elaborate some passages as more detailed sketches on stave paper with my piano.

3) After setting those building blocks, I only have to "fill in the blanks" while creating a 12-stave sketch score in Sibelius. That score is usually heavily annotated and can thus be rapidly orchestrated. The resulting full score is usually detailed enough to be mocked up in Cubase.

4) After the mockup is complete (and while mocking up), I adjust the sketch orchestration in Sibelius.

5) Now the final cleanup in Sibelius is not so much work. Most details are already there.

On this particular piece step #5 took me only maybe 5-10 hours. I created it in Sibelius 4 or 5, which means: Creating the modern orchestration effects was a royal pain in the ass. Sibelius is not really suited for that kind of notation. At least they FINALLY added rudimentary bezier slurs in v6, which FINALLY makes it possible to notate harp glissandi in a more useful way...

Anyway, thanks for the kind words! If you are interested, I could dig in my archive and unearth the handwritten sketches for this piece to illustrate my steps 1-4.


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## johnhamilton (Jun 3, 2011)

PoppaJimmy @ Fri 03 Jun said:


> johnhamilton @ Fri Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > I've written an SFX score and also a table where you write down every time frame at which a sound begins and will end, it's hard stuff but because so useful when you start scoring the stuff, saved me a lot of time!
> ...



It's like a western score manuscript but instead it has one single line with bar lines and has pictures that represent sounds such as bangs or claps or footsteps and the length of them stretch along timeline depending on how long it's on for, great fun I'll try and photocopy one for you!


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## JimmyPoppa (Jun 3, 2011)

johnhamilton @ Fri Jun 03 said:


> PoppaJimmy @ Fri 03 Jun said:
> 
> 
> > johnhamilton @ Fri Jun 03 said:
> ...



OK, that kind of makes sense. Sounds intriguing. I'll look forward to seeing it.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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