# Do you have a sub woofer in your monitoring setup?



## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

As I'm working on my sub woofer presets for Zebra it made me wonder... do media composers typically have 5.1 setups or at least 2.1?

I imagine in this day an age the vast majority of music ends up in 5.1 or probably in object-based surround formats like Atmos or DTS-X.


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## JohnG (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> As I'm working on my sub woofer presets for Zebra it made me wonder... do media composers typically have 5.1 setups or at least 2.1?
> 
> I imagine in this day an age the vast majority of music ends up in 5.1 or probably in object-based surround formats like Atmos or DTS-X.


If you're composing for media, I would certainly recommend some kind of sub-woofer. My original one was only $50 but it really helped. 

With modern writing incorporating very powerful bass, synth or drums down there, we have to know what's going on in the low-lows or we risk delivering problems to a mix stage.

On a related note, it's a good idea to ask, before you write a single note, what the delivery request from a dub stage will be. 

Do they want you to try to mix in 5.1? 
Do they want two stereo pairs, ("percussion" and "other") or 
Do they want ten stereo pairs so they have a lot of control?
These days, with the algorithms engineers and dub stages are using to generate a 5.1 split from stereo tracks, it might be a bad idea for the composer to try guessing what should go into the surrounds, centre or .1 channels. 

Always ask the dubbing mixer. And do it by email so that, if they complain later, you have a record that you followed their specifications.


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## Piano Pete (Mar 1, 2021)

Largely depends on the room. Sometimes a more appropriate pair of decent speakers can have much better response than adding a dedicated sub, but it all depends. I have had to fix some dysfunctional sub setups.

Some guys use them, others, not so much. Most composers I know, with the space, use them. However, they tend to avoid relying on them too much anyway—especially when it comes to really dedicating information to them. That LFE channel will mostly be reserved by sfx, so a lot of music material gets chucked at the dub or implementation.

That said, that might just be a reflection the crowd I work with.


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## dcoscina (Mar 1, 2021)

I had thought of originally getting the Yamaha HS5 with their matching sub since I don't have a lot of desk space. but the HS series is really flat response and kinda ear fatiguing so I went with the Adam T5Vs instead. Yeah, I wanted the AX series instead by $$$ was short...


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## sostenuto (Mar 1, 2021)

(2) Desktop Win10 Pro DAW(s) and 2 (Energy - Powered Subs) 8" & 12". Only on as needed.


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## schiing (Mar 1, 2021)

I don't work in any kind of treated room, or as a professional - so I guess it isn't really imperative to learn whether I use one or not (I do, and I find it super-useful). But I want to highlight an experience that relates to the low-lows - I hope it's somewhat relevant to the OP's question, as it relates to sub signals in general:

I've been working with monitors, a sub and various headphones through my Focusrite 18i20 to get what's hopefully a fair representation of my mix - and I've been happy with it.

More or less by chance, though, I discovered a whole new dimension to my mixes when I sent the signal through my 1982 JVC stereo and listened through the headphone output. Suddenly I hear lots of bass stuff below 60-70hZ that I've always seen on my spectrum analyzer, but that simply doesn't seem to exist in my sub (Yamaha HS8S), and certainly not through the Focusrite headphone outputs.

It's been a real ear-opener for me, and I can't mix without it now. But it seems so odd to me that I can't hear any of this on my specialised gear. I suppose the HS8S performance can be attributed to poor room acoustics, but I'm surprised there's such a huge difference between the Focusrite and the JVC headphone outputs. Maybe this is something akin to what you'd get if you use dedicated headphone amps?

Anyway, the headphone outs on my soundcard are for the most part useless now that I'm aware of it, and headphones through my ancient stereo are more useful for most low end decisions than my sub!

I thought this was an interesting parallel. I've practically been mixing for decades without being aware of a critical part of my mix. I hope the OP will let me know if this is a complete derailment from his intentions - no problem to delete if you feel that way.


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## Vin (Mar 1, 2021)

I do, but I rarely use it for any serious mixing. If you aren't working in a fairly treated room I'd suggest checking sub-bass on a pair of quality cans.


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

schiing said:


> I don't work in any kind of treated room, or as a professional - so I guess it isn't really imperative to learn whether I use one or not (I do, and I find it super-useful). But I want to highlight an experience that relates to the low-lows - I hope it's somewhat relevant to the OP's question, as it relates to sub signals in general:
> 
> I've been working with monitors, a sub and various headphones through my Focusrite 18i20 to get what's hopefully a fair representation of my mix - and I've been happy with it.
> 
> ...


Great story!

Honestly it would make more sense to me that your ancient consumer stereo has some bast boost on the headphones output. I'd be very surprised if your audio interface couldn't push your high impedance headphones.

I'm using some low impedance HD280 Pro (new version) which have great tight low end but it's not very pronounced. When I want to hear the sub range more clearly, I add 3-4dbs to that range on my master bus.

I then do the final check on my 3.1 home theater. At this point I've kinda understood how things translate from my studio to my home theater in terms of low end.


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## schiing (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> Great story!
> 
> Honestly it would make more sense to me that your ancient consumer stereo has some bast boost on the headphones output. I'd be very surprised if your audio interface couldn't push your high impedance headphones.
> 
> ...


You're probably right - there's definitely a bass boost on the old stereo. I run some low and high impedance Beyerdynamics with pretty similar results, and I might be able to replicate the JVC sound through the soundcard - honestly, I was so pleased with the new JVC bass spectrum when I discovered it that I didn't even consider going back to tweak


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## JohnG (Mar 1, 2021)

Piano Pete said:


> Largely depends on the room. Sometimes a more appropriate pair of decent speakers can have much better response than adding a dedicated sub


Sorry, can't agree there. A dedicated sub tells you if you are over-cranking the very low frequencies better than stereo speakers, no matter how "decent." 

My speakers are rated down to 20Hz and my amp has a damping factor of 20,000 -- nothing slouchy there -- but the sub alerts me when I go overboard with sub-bass or very low drums. I like lots of very low drums; for me the sub is indispensable.


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 1, 2021)

Sub is LIFE...


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## Saxer (Mar 1, 2021)

I've never been happy with my mixes until I could hear the sub. Without it's a high pass cut off.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 1, 2021)

It depends what you need it for and what you want to do in your room? 

IMHO, a sub is not required for music mixing, as long as you have decent full range frequency response from your main speakers. If you are mixing music for cinema, it will be useful for sure but you have to know what you are doing. Most rooms just cannot handle subs very well or they are set-up very badly. 

However, if you are looking to extend the range of your speakers in a stereo configuration, think about it very carefully. Many times, a sub will add more problems than it may solve. There are many questions to be answered - is your room treated? Have you tried other options and tried to get a better response from your speakers? Have you considered buying new speakers instead of adding a sub? 

Many people use a sub in a 2.1 style configuration - others use one sub-woofer per channel, mounted directly underneath the left and right speakers. I am not sure which is better but I have asked around and haven't quite understood the main differences. 

Most rooms tend to sound false to me and the sound is not very frontal but more diffused and I always hear the sub - it is not the same as having full range speakers. 

I have a control room with 5.0 surround mixing capability. The main speakers go down to 20 Hz and they are full range. I stay well clear of the sub - even in a surround mix and I leave it to the dub stage. Never feel the need for a sub! 

After all, at least for cinema, it is called the LFE - Low Frequency Effects only!


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## Stringtree (Mar 1, 2021)

I have a JBL with a volume and cutoff knob. It was 50 bucks at a thrift store, think it’s from the 80s.

The monitors stop doing anything at some point down low and just being able to lift up the bass is godly. Then I turn the output back half a tick.


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## chillbot (Mar 1, 2021)

Agree with sub. Yes sub.

I'm adding this to my list of often-asked questions where people hope that the answer is "no" so they can be justified in not buying/having a sub. *Not saying that is the case here* *at all*, just that I see it asked so many times.

CHILLBOT'S LIST OF SELF-SCREWERY
1. Do I have to move to LA (or London, NY, etc)? No, but you're screwing yourself.
2. Do I have to learn music theory? No, but you're screwing yourself.
3. Do I have to learn to play piano? No, but you're screwing yourself.
4a. Do I have to buy omnisphere? No, but you're screwing yourself.
4b. Do I have to buy kontakt? No, but you're screwing yourself.
5. Do I have to have a sub? No, but you're screwing yourself.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 1, 2021)

Yes sub. Absolutely, especially with little speakers that don't have any useful response below about 60Hz - and often quite a bit higher than that.

But the crossover between the bottom of your other speakers and the top of the sub has to be seamless - which can happen by accident, but that's hit or miss.


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

chillbot said:


> CHILLBOT'S LIST OF SELF-SCREWERY
> 1. Do I have to move to LA (or London, NY, etc)? No, but you're screwing yourself.
> 2. Do I have to learn music theory? No, but you're screwing yourself.
> 3. Do I have to learn to play piano? No, but you're screwing yourself.
> ...


4c. Do I have to buy Zebra? No, but you're screwing yourself.


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## Piano Pete (Mar 1, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Sorry, can't agree there. A dedicated sub tells you if you are over-cranking the very low frequencies better than stereo speakers, no matter how "decent."
> 
> My speakers are rated down to 20Hz and my amp has a damping factor of 20,000 -- nothing slouchy there -- but the sub alerts me when I go overboard with sub-bass or very low drums. I like lots of very low drums; for me the sub is indispensable.


I agree with you. I have sub as well.

My reason for that statement is largely for someone getting started who is living in a smaller or poorly treated environment. This makes it hard for me to say, "Yes, always get a sub." Sometimes, a safer purchase may be better front ported speakers, if someone is working from a shoebox bedroom or has very cheap near-field monitors. 

Some rooms just cannot support that amount of low frequency information, so one's money may be better directed elsewhere, but like Nick said: if a pair of monitors does not support the low end, you need to supplement it in order to properly monitor the entire mix.

However, just slapping a sub into a given setup without properly setting it up or considering the acoustics of the room can spell disaster. I'm not saying it always does, but it definitely can. Enough of my rent has been covered over the years by having addressed this issue for various composers and engineers. However, for the inclined, there are enough tutorials about this subject to steer one from such a scenario.

In hindsight, I guess I should've prefaced it more as a disclaimer to "look before you leap" and verify that you purchase the right equipment for the room given the gear already in the space. This was mostly geared towards the odd person who may be googling this on a whim.

All things being equal and considered, subs can do wonders with the transparency of a mix, especially if it is potentially slamming into a limiter. But even then, most things are approved by someone listening to a score on their iphone or ipad, and I have worked with artists who solely mix with headphones due to travel, so there is that... 

I think Chillbot's list is pretty realistic.


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## Sunny Schramm (Mar 1, 2021)

yes and no.

1. Monitoring: Adam A7X
2. Monitoring: JBL LSR305 + LSR310S


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

Anyone tried one of those Subpacs?

It's like a wearable subwoofer attached to your body.









SUBPAC - The New Way to Experience Sound: Feel it.™


SUBPAC lets you feel the bass by immersing the body in low-frequency, high-fidelity physical sound, silent on the outside. Ideal for music, gaming, & VR.




subpac.com


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## Instrugramm (Mar 1, 2021)

Two subs actually, having a pair helped me tremendously to get rid of room modes, more than most bass traps could. For mixes I first go with speakers only and then slowly add in the bass again with the subs.

Getting big subs enables you to tell what goes on in the lower regions of your mix, sometimes eq'ing way down will let you keep the timbre of bassy instruments while preserving clarity, just high-passing everything can make instruments sound stale on some occasions.

Ps. In my experience it's better to get two cheaper subs than one expensive sub, a single woofer will probably mess up the room tone (standing waves etc.).


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## jonnybutter (Mar 1, 2021)

Yes, and I wouldn’t mix without it


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 1, 2021)

Instrugramm said:


> Two subs actually, having a pair helped me tremendously to get rid of room modes, more than most bass traps could. For mixes I first go with speakers only and then slowly add in the bass again with the subs.
> 
> Getting big subs enables you to tell what goes on in the lower regions of your mix, sometimes eq'ing way down will let you keep the timbre of bassy instruments while preserving clarity, just high-passing everything can make instruments sound stale on some occasions.
> 
> Ps. In my experience it's better to get two cheaper subs than one expensive sub, a single woofer will probably mess up the room tone (standing waves etc.).



Manny LaCarruba, a friend who designed the best speakers I've ever heard, likes to use multiple subs in his setups.

But those are very high-end systems. My single-sub set-up (part of the Blue Sky System One) still works really well.


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

I always thought having two subs would cause more problems than it solves but there's a lot of people doing it. I've seen this a lot with home theater geeks.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> I always thought having two subs would cause more problems than it solves but there's a lot of people doing it. I've seen this a lot with home theater geeks.


Manny likes to use them in all four corners.


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## babylonwaves (Mar 1, 2021)

Instrugramm said:


> Ps. In my experience it's better to get two cheaper subs than one expensive sub, a single woofer will probably mess up the room tone (standing waves etc.).


I have a treated room and to be honest, it didn't fully satisfy my expectations. The room is pretty small and I have two very prominent standing waves I can't kill with two walls full of bass traps. Last year I had the guy over who built the components and measured the room in the first place. I've explained to him that I wasn't happy with the lack of bass response. Especially because the speakers are fairly sizeable for the room (focal BE6 trio). He suggested to try out a sub he brought with him. We moved it around and the best position was under one speaker. The middle wasn't ideal. He also suggested to go for a sealed woofer design because those introduce less delay. Specifically he suggested two alternatives which did cost me a fraction of what I've paid normally:

- SVS SB-1000 Subs https://www.svsound.com/collections/subwoofers
- A Mini DSP OEM: https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini.htm

So I ended up buying two subs.

The DSP box I use to align the subs to the mains. I have to delay the mains in order to get the subs in time and phase (about 4ms). I also use it for the crossover. The nice thing about it is that you can program it with a Windows software while you sit in the sweet spot. After a couple of hours of listening and trying I had a really pleasing result. I've tried without the DSP. Forget about it. There is a phase selector on the subs but the delay in between the mains and the subs wasn't controllable using the phase. Honestly, those €60 euros for the DSP was one of the best audio investments I've ever made. Everybody with a sub which isn't designed for the mains should try it.

I'd never go back. I can hear a full octave deeper than before and that makes a huge change to me.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 1, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> I have a treated room and to be honest, it didn't fully satisfy my expectations. The room is pretty small and I have two very prominent standing waves I can't kill with two walls full of bass traps. Last year I had the guy over who built the components and measured the room in the first place. I've explained to him that I wasn't happy with the lack of bass response. Especially because the speakers are fairly sizeable for the room (focal BE6 trio). He suggested to try out a sub he brought with him. We moved it around and the best position was under one speaker. The middle wasn't ideal. He also suggested to go for a sealed woofer design because those introduce less delay. Specifically he suggested two alternatives which did cost me a fraction of what I've paid normally:
> 
> - SVS SB-1000 Subs https://www.svsound.com/collections/subwoofers
> - A Mini DSP OEM: https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini.htm
> ...


I use two SVS (SB-2000 Pro) subs as well with my Amphions. DSP correction is a must.


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> The DSP box I use to align the subs to the mains. I have to delay the mains in order to get the subs in time and phase (about 4ms). I also use it for the crossover. The nice thing about it is that you can program it with a Windows software while you sit in the sweet spot. After a couple of hours of listening and trying I had a really pleasing result. I've tried without the DSP. Forget about it. There is a phase selector on the subs but the delay in between the mains and the subs wasn't controllable using the phase. Honestly, those €60 euros for the DSP was one of the best audio investments I've ever made. Everybody with a sub which isn't designed for the mains should try it.


I've always wondered about that.

Home theater receivers automatically do this when doing the setup but I've never seen this kind of stuff in pro audio.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> I've always wondered about that.
> 
> Home theater receivers automatically do this when doing the setup but I've never seen this kind of stuff in pro audio.


Actually most higher-end speaker monitor-systems (Genelec, Neumann etc.) use DSP correction. Lows are hard to manage without.


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

Instrugramm said:


> Actually most higher-end speaker monitor-systems (Genelec, Neumann etc.) use DSP correction. Lows are hard to manage without.


I guess one way is to make sure all monitors/sub are at the same distance from the sweet spot which is the recommended way by the The Recording Academy's Producers & Engineers Wing.

"In order to avoid phase cancellation and comb filtering problems, it is absolutely critical that the signal coming from all five main speakers arrive at the mixing position at the same time. This is best accomplished by having all five speakers equidistant from the mixing position. If this cannot be achieved because of the physical layout of the room, disparity in arrival time can be corrected with the use of delay."

"That said, it is our recommendation that the subwoofer be positioned in front of the mixing position, between the left and right speakers. The reason for this is that bass-heavy elements such as bass guitar and kick drum are most often placed in one or more of the front wall speakers. Positioning the subwoofer off to the side or behind the mix position therefore compromises imaging and can contribute to phase smearing."

"It is important to note that the use of delay is not recommended unless absolutely necessary. It provides a far less satisfactory solution than actually positioning and angling speakers correctly!"

Source PDF

Not saying that I agree or disagree, just sharing this from a reputable source.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 1, 2021)

babylonwaves said:


> He also suggested to go for a sealed woofer design because those introduce less delay.


That's an interesting angle. I've never thought of it that way, but it makes sense - the wave bounces off the back of the cabinet, so yeah, I guess that's delay.

It's also a tighter sound if the box is sealed. That's been the argument for sealed boxes - acoustic suspension - since at least the late '60s.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> Not saying that I agree or disagree, just sharing this from a reputable source


I have no experience working with surround set-ups, but with stereo that's somewhat less critical - although EM Long's "point source" design (with concentric horns) was/is based on that concept.

My sub is about 18" behind the line between my sats, and it's fine there. (Acoustics and politics: arts of the possible rather than the ideal.)


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## Noeticus (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> As I'm working on my sub woofer presets for Zebra it made me wonder... do media composers typically have 5.1 setups or at least 2.1?
> 
> I imagine in this day an age the vast majority of music ends up in 5.1 or probably in object-based surround formats like Atmos or DTS-X.


YES, YES, YES.... for me a subwoofer is a must!


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## dgburns (Mar 1, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Agree with sub. Yes sub.
> 
> I'm adding this to my list of often-asked questions where people hope that the answer is "no" so they can be justified in not buying/having a sub. *Not saying that is the case here* *at all*, just that I see it asked so many times.
> 
> ...


Forgot one:

6. Do I have to agree with @chillbot ? No, but you’re screwing yourself

In all seriousness, I use two subs. One is a bass managed extension of my LFR fronts. The other is a dedicated LFE. The bass managed system appears to go down to around 25hz in my room where I sit. I listen to all sorts of stuff, and you wouldn’t believe how many tunes I’ve heard with offensive sub sonics- unintended things that are really not musical. And you can really tell when someone mixed something and they could actually hear down there. So much stuff is rolled off pretty high as well, there really is a variance of production philosophy on low end.
IMHO, you can have staggering amounts of low end, but the trick is to balance the rest of the spectrum. If everything is well proportioned, there is no issues on playback in range restricted systems. Where the problem comes in is when the balance is off and there’s too much of something.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> I guess one way is to make sure all monitors/sub are at the same distance from the sweet spot which is the recommended way by the The Recording Academy's Producers & Engineers Wing.
> 
> "In order to avoid phase cancellation and comb filtering problems, it is absolutely critical that the signal coming from all five main speakers arrive at the mixing position at the same time. This is best accomplished by having all five speakers equidistant from the mixing position. If this cannot be achieved because of the physical layout of the room, disparity in arrival time can be corrected with the use of delay."
> 
> ...


They are in my case at the same position as my monitors but DSP correction of the subs allows you to "eq" your frequency response to be flat. Room treatment and positioning are key, DSP is the last step (I only use it on the subs, not my monitors which aren't even directly wired to the SVS').


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## chillbot (Mar 1, 2021)

*RANDOMLY INTERJECTED ADVERT:*

If anyone in Los Angeles would like a sub or would like to experiment with TWO subs even, I have a https://jblpro.com/en/products/lsr2310sp (JBL LSR2310SP) that is yours absolutely free (and covid-free, too!) if you come pick it up at my place in La Canada Flintridge.

OK it has a nice little buzz to keep you company, I think right at 120Hz. But aside from the nice little buzz it works great! I think @Jdiggity1 made the buzz go away for a while with a bit of soldering, maybe you could ask him exactly what was done. But anyway I've decided to go with the non-buzz version, for now anyway. (Just bought another LSR310S as replacement.)

If you like to listen at a reasonable level and you tuck the sub into a corner (the buzz is more-or-less directional) you might not even notice! Maybe I'll post this in the 'for sale' section but you subby guys/gals get first dibs.


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## twincities (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> I guess one way is to make sure all monitors/sub are at the same distance from the sweet spot which is the recommended way by the The Recording Academy's Producers & Engineers Wing.


this can be useful for matching speakers (say the "5" of a 5.1 system) but as soon as you start comparing unalike speakers, _especially _with their own built in electronics/dsp, distance is only a single piece of the equation and won't get you the correct answer alone. 

personally, i don't think subs are worth the hassle until you're in a situation to have a room that is acoustically in a good place, and have the proper know-how to deploy a sub beyond the "turn it on and play with the crossover till it sounds good" approach (or are paying someone to do it correctly for you). until that point i'm much happier with a set of main speakers that extend lower but originates at a coherent source.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 1, 2021)

dgburns said:


> The bass managed system appears to go down to around 25hz in my room where I sit


Same here.

Sk8ter Boi (Avril Lavigne) is a good piece to check whether you need a sub. The verse goes boom on the downbeat every four bars at about 32 Hz.

If you can hear that, you have bass. But if you listen to it and have no idea what I'm talking about, you need a sub.


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Same here.
> 
> Sk8ter Boi (Avril Lavigne) is a good piece to check whether you need a sub. The verse goes boom on the downbeat every four bars at about 32 Hz.
> 
> If you can hear that, you have bass. But if you listen to it and have no idea what I'm talking about, you need a sub.


Oh yeah I can hear that with my HD280 Pro.

Super odd production decision to be honest.


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## chillbot (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> Super odd production decision to be honest.


Maybe they didn't mix it with a sub!

Kidding, I kinda like it, works for me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 1, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Maybe they didn't mix it with a sub!
> 
> Kidding, I kinda like it, works for me.


I really like the whole album.

And yeah, it works for me too. It's just an extra added thing for fun.


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## Pier (Mar 1, 2021)

I swear this wasn't the intention when I started the thread... but since you all seem so proud of your sub setups... 

Could you give a quick listen to this and tell me how it sounds?

It's straight out from Zebra. No mastering or even normalization so it might sound a bit low.

Do you feel the low end is hyped, just right, or too soft?

Edit:

Something happened when uploading to SoundCloud... so here's the MP3.


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## babylonwaves (Mar 1, 2021)

Pier said:


> "It is important to note that the use of delay is not recommended unless absolutely necessary. It provides a far less satisfactory solution than actually positioning and angling speakers correctly!"


this is what I was told: different speaker designs, different delays. a transmission line or ported design delays the sound further than a sealed design. the dimension of the chassis also where the speaker is located in the chassis also play a part. in my case, the position had a great influence, the angle - not so much. but they're right in the sense that distance is the bigger evil. 2m = 5.5ms (vs. the 4ms the sub introduced). it would be great things were the other way around, we could push the subs back into the room to align them with the front speakers. damn physics


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## AudioLoco (Mar 2, 2021)

Both positions re: sub are valid I think

For music production/mixing no sub really "required", unless the entire room has been designed by a top acoustic engineer (or just luck of finding a problem-free room). More often it introduces more problems then solving them.
With a good set of monitors you know, a decent room, and a quick look at the spectrum analyzer you should be just fine. 
Most engineers loved to mix on a pair of NS10, without sub, which extends to...well... no bass. We used to actually look at the cones and learn to recognize the right movement for the right bass extension....

As for music production for media, and especially film/shows. That is another story and having a sub helps to understand what you are going for related to the actual FX, foley, sound design (LFE) and how to interact with them (even though you usually don't have the final SFX while working).
It just gives you more useful info (in a decently treated room).

In the case you are mixing/working towards 5.1, well you need the .1.... But that is a different story as the sub is actually a channel and not just a component that gets separated automatically by whatever system it is played on (crossover). Again, usually the music will not be sent at all to the sub channel so 5.0 could work for some....


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## wst3 (Mar 2, 2021)

I'm using a pair of Presonus Sceptre S6s as my primary monitors right now. (Nick will chuckle when I mention that I also use a pair of Urei 809s). For a short time I had the Presonus T8 in the room, and I liked it, but I got really used to having it, and forgot it was there. So when demo time was over I sent it back, thinking (incorrectly) that it hadn't really done anything for me. Now I am really aware that it is missing.

For things I was working on there is very little if any energy below about 40 Hz, and the S6s handle that, but with the sub it just felt more complete - if that makes any sense.

Guitar goes down to about 80 Hz, a four string bass goes down to about 40 Hz (one octave lower). A piano goes one octave further down (I think, this is from memory), and I don't play well enough to use those keys<G>! So my set up is fine for guitars (and most brass, winds, and strings), and possibly in need of a little assistance for bass, tuba, and piano.

Meaning I really need to get off my lazy thing and order a sub-woofer. FWIW I will use one, and I will place it in the center on the front wall - that is all I need it for.


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## GNP (Mar 2, 2021)

More importantly is to have bass traps if you possibly can. Nothing worse than bass frequencies misrepresented by the room, while you have an excellent, expensive sub.


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## dgburns (Mar 2, 2021)

Pier said:


> I swear this wasn't the intention when I started the thread... but since you all seem so proud of your sub setups...
> 
> Could you give a quick listen to this and tell me how it sounds?
> 
> ...


They sound fine. But it does bring up the question of headroom. If you have slamming bass down there eating up all your headroom, you have to be very careful, especially if this range does not translate well to the iPhone users.

just a thought, but for cinematic uses, yeah, great.


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## Pier (Mar 2, 2021)

dgburns said:


> They sound fine. But it does bring up the question of headroom. If you have slamming bass down there eating up all your headroom, you have to be very careful, especially if this range does not translate well to the iPhone users.
> 
> just a thought, but for cinematic uses, yeah, great.


Thanks for checking it out.

Yeah, most of these will not sound great on a phone. They do sound at least acceptable on an iPad though.


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## BassClef (Mar 2, 2021)

Hobbyist here doing stereo only... mixing in an untreated 12X12X9 foot room... Focal Alpha6 monitors... Elac Sub3010. This sub has built in equalization that you control with a cell phone app. You use your cell phone to listen to the sub at "point blank" range, then again at your listing position. The software then creates a frequency response curve that the sub uses to flatten it's frequency at your listing position. I split my mixing time between this 2.1 speaker setup and my Beyerdynamic DT880Pro headphones using Waves "NX Ocean Way" plugin. That plugin has done more for my mixing than the sub.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 2, 2021)

I'm a headphone guy at heart and so I should probably mention that I have a vast collection of headphone amps and cans (I won't write down numbers or people will think I'm crazy) including dead flat closed-backs (Ether CX), open-back evergreens (HD560S, HD650, HD600, HD58X, DT880 600 Ohms), neutral-ish rare stuff (Verum One Mk2, Argon T60RP) and some more (Bayerdynamic, Sendy, Sivga etc.). Bass can thump on headphones and they can be of great help but they can't convey impact. Deep bass has a physical dimension that only speakers can transmit to your body as the air of the room is actually compressed.

Some headphones can give you an idea of the thump without the mass (DT177x, Sivga Phoenix or HD6xx on the IFI Signature Zen Can with the 6xx mode enabled) while others can give you an idea of the weight (Ether CX, Verum One mk2) but I have never listened to a headphone (no matter the price, not even the most expensive Audeze or Focal cans) that will tell you both. So apart from the "do I need a sub" dimension, mixing on headphones is possible, it can be awesome but it can't imitate what low end does in the real world when woofers reproduce sound. (Provided your room is treated and room modes have been taken care of by DSP and/or a second sub or more.)


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## JohnG (Mar 2, 2021)

If you want to write for professional projects, get a sub, no matter how rudimentary. If you are a hobbyist, then of course do as you please.

It's always nice to have a treated room, but whether or not you do, get a sub. If you can't hear what's going on between 20-50 Hz you can make significant mixing mistakes, especially in media music.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 2, 2021)

JohnG said:


> If you want to write for professional projects, get a sub, no matter how rudimentary. If you are a hobbyist, then of course do as you please.
> 
> It's always nice to have a treated room, but whether or not you do, get a sub. If you can't hear what's going on between 20-50 Hz you can make significant mixing mistakes, especially in media music.


Absolutely, although maybe not the most rudimentary sub, phase alignment is vital for marrying sub(s) and monitors, so a sub with adjustable phase (not only 0° and 180°) is recommendable imo (if the budget allows it). Apart from that yes, even fairly affordable subs can help tremendously.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2021)

Instrugramm said:


> Absolutely, although maybe not the most rudimentary sub, phase alignment is vital for marrying sub(s) and monitors, so a sub with adjustable phase (not only 0° and 180°) is recommendable imo (if the budget allows it). Apart from that yes, even fairly affordable subs can help tremendously.



My sense is that how the crossover is implemented with your main speakers is the big fish. Whether rumble is in phase isn't unimportant, but it's probably a little lower on the list.

That's just based on having flipped the polarity switch on mine, not an educated opinion.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 3, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> My sense is that how the crossover is implemented with your main speakers is the big fish. Whether rumble is in phase isn't unimportant, but it's probably a little lower on the list.
> 
> That's just based on having flipped the polarity switch on mine, not an educated opinion.


Crossover is important (especially the slopes) but phase is noticeably, even if the speakers/subs are only slightly out of phase you will notice that the bass sounds bloated and you can make out a difference between sub and the speakers. If your sub is well implemented your monitors will sound as though it's them producing the bass.

Just load up an 80hz sine tone (if your crossover is at 80) and adjust the phase, my SVS' allow variable adjustment from 0 to 180 and are set to 75 although the subs are located a mere 20 cm from my monitors' woofers. In home cinema it's not as vital to get it right but if you want to mix it should be a priority and a typical mistake I've seen or rather heard time and time again.

I'll now stop sounding like a smart ass and chime out in order to finally write some more music.


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## jmauz (Mar 3, 2021)

Yeah my dog hangs out with me in the studio all the time...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 3, 2021)

Instrugramm said:


> Crossover is important (especially the slopes) but phase is noticeably, even if the speakers/subs are only slightly out of phase you will notice that the bass sounds bloated and you can make out a difference between sub and the speakers. If your sub is well implemented your monitors will sound as though it's them producing the bass.
> 
> Just load up an 80hz sine tone (if your crossover is at 80) and adjust the phase, my SVS' allow variable adjustment from 0 to 180 and are set to 75 although the subs are located a mere 20 cm from my monitors' woofers. In home cinema it's not as vital to get it right but if you want to mix it should be a priority and a typical mistake I've seen or rather heard time and time again.
> 
> I'll now stop sounding like a smart ass and chime out in order to finally write some more music.



My argument is that the wrong crossover for your system can and will produce that dreaded separate speaker sound.

Blurring probably has as much to do with the room and placement in it as much as electronic phase adjustment to try and compensate for the distances to your ears. That's an educated guess, not an empirical fact.

I have a Blue Sky System One setup, which consists of sealed 6.5" sats and a sub. It's designed as a system and sounds like that, i.e. you *can't* hear separate speakers even if you try.

But using this sub with my big UREI 809As... wrong. It's possible I could rig a separate crossover system that makes the sub work better, but then the best thing about the UREIs is that the bass sounds overwhelmingly right as is - even if it doesn't do much below 40 or 45Hz.

The UREIs have ports, by the way.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 3, 2021)

This is possibly a dumb sub noob question but where do you place your subs? Under the desk? Does it have to be in the middle? I don't have much space for it but want one as soon as possible. But I really wonder how to implement it real estate wise.


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## JohnG (Mar 3, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> This is possibly a dumb sub noob question but where do you place your subs? Under the desk? Does it have to be in the middle? I don't have much space for it but want one as soon as possible. But I really wonder how to implement it real estate wise.


It's not at all a dumb question. You will, no doubt, get 10,000 "expert" replies, succeeded by the experts arguing amongst themselves.

There are quite a few tips on Youtube and elsewhere about how to place a sub. It takes a little while to situate it so the sub will help the most. I would start with Youtube and, if you can, try to find one that is talking about a room not too dissimilar to yours (size and shape).

And as another aside, since many will tell you this: it does help to have treated your room.

I'm not dismissing that, but take it with a slight grain of salt -- don't feel that you can't buy a sub if your room isn't dialed in. Besides, sometimes just an irregular-shaped room or normal, around-the-house furniture can reduce some of the worst problems. You don't need to buy oscilloscopes and expensive software to improve your listening substantially.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 3, 2021)

JohnG said:


> It's not at all a dumb question. You will, no doubt, get 10,000 "expert" replies, succeeded by the experts arguing amongst themselves.
> 
> There are quite a few tips on Youtube and elsewhere about how to place a sub. It takes a little while to situate it so the sub will help the most. I would start with Youtube and, if you can, try to find one that is talking about a room not too dissimilar to yours (size and shape).
> 
> ...


Thank you John, so again not the one right answer that ends the need of research. Will take a look at YT before getting one. My studio room is fairly treated. I'm aware of that.
But I'm also curious how you guys/girls place it in an average project studio.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 3, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Thank you John, so again not the one right answer that ends the need of research. Will take a look at YT before getting one. My studio room is fairly treated. I'm aware of that.
> But I'm also curious how you guys/girls place it in an average project studio.


Search for "sub crawl".


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## Pier (Mar 3, 2021)

Instrugramm said:


> Search for "sub crawl".


I've seen this mentioned many times in home theater forums.

I think, a better idea would be to use a mic with a laptop and Room EQ Wizard. It's a free application that can be used to do acoustic measurements and so much more.

You can do measurements in real-time btw. It would be better to use a calibrated mic, but for the low end any mic will be better than winging it without a mic.

Here's a $20 calibrated mic by Dayton Audio:



I used it when I installed some DIY acoustic panels on my studio and home theater.

This is before the panels:






This is after the panels:


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## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 3, 2021)

Instrugramm said:


> Search for "sub crawl".


Cool, very easy to do. Didn't know that. Thank you.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 3, 2021)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Cool, very easy to do. Didn't know that. Thank you.


You're welcome.


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## rdd27 (Mar 4, 2021)

All the subs I have seen have built-in crossover for stereo. What about surround? 

Other than using the sub as a discreet .1 channel, is there any way for one sub to do bass management for a 4-channel surround system? Do you just have to make do with the rear speaker channels not going to the sub?


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## Pier (Mar 4, 2021)

rdd27 said:


> All the subs I have seen have built-in crossover for stereo. What about surround?
> 
> Other than using the sub as a discreet .1 channel, is there any way for one sub to do bass management for a 4-channel surround system? Do you just have to make do with the rear speaker channels not going to the sub?


I don't know about pro-audio... but usually the home theater receiver does the bass management.

I've been reading the manual for the KRK 12s sub and there's this diagram which says there's some hardware "bass manager".






I've been looking into monitor controllers for surround setups but haven't found any that does bass management.

This sub by Genelec does have surround inputs and bass management options.


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## Instrugramm (Mar 4, 2021)

rdd27 said:


> All the subs I have seen have built-in crossover for stereo. What about surround?
> 
> Other than using the sub as a discreet .1 channel, is there any way for one sub to do bass management for a 4-channel surround system? Do you just have to make do with the rear speaker channels not going to the sub?


I control my subs individually via the line outs of my Apollo, I could hook up 4 without a problem but 4 are hard to dial in or rather place ideally without creating nulls. I don't even use more than 2 in my Home Theater setups (9.2 and 5.2 respectively), stop giving me bad ideas. 
Or maybe I do need more subs... hmmmm


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## Pier (Mar 4, 2021)

A bit off topic... but I found these so called subwoofer exciters which transmit low frequencies to solid objects (chair, sofa, etc).






Subwoofer Exciters - PUI Audio | DigiKey


PUI Audio’s silent subwoofer exciters deliver bass, without much space, and with nearly none of the sound.



www.digikey.com.mx





One of those goes a low as 5Hz...


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## PaulieDC (Mar 27, 2021)

I had a PreSonus T10 with a pair of Eris E5 speakers and what drove me nuts was having to reach under the desk to control the sub volume. This also wasn’t the bestest sounding setup either and the E5’s have ZERO shielding so I had to keep my iPhone 10 feet away to not hear the dit-dit-dit-dit come through. I put the whole rig on OfferUp last year, gone. Needless to say that soured my desire to deal with a sub.

However, I recently discovered and bought a pair of Neumann KH80s which I’m bonkers about, and then discovered the KH750 sub (not purchased YET) and KH80s are all controllable with an iPad app. THATS what *I’m* talkin’ about! So the sub is on the wishlist as I gather the funds. Just threw a 1GB NetGear switch on my desk since I have to run Cat5e cables to all three cabinets to gain network access for the Neumann iPad app to work. Once all set up I’ll report back, but the sub is mandatory with these smaller KH80s, you can tell the sub will complete the story. Even just to play the Garritan CFX and feel the octaves in the bass will be worth the price of admission. And what a price it is, good NIGHT Aunt Martha.


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## Jiffster (Mar 27, 2021)

My room is a fully calibrated 7.1.4. Typically for music composition I would work in 2.0 / 4.0. Whenever 5.1 music is requested by a client, I oblige of course, but I leave the LFE and centre channel alone, for the most part. If your monitors struggle below 60hz then I can see how a sub is important for music.

On the other hand, with sound design, a sub is essential.

Of course, you should use whatever set up you feel comfortable with and are used to, and if that involves a sub, have at it 😉


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## Nimrod7 (Mar 27, 2021)

I am expecting a Genelec 7360A to arrive mid April. I will eventually be in a 2.1 setup.
It was a bit of a concern on how to drive the sub volume independently, being able to switch between at least 2 monitor sets, mute, switch to headphones dimming the monitor volume with 1 button, etc.

Doing all that through my interface could have been a torture.
A couple of months ago, I got a Grace Design m905 as the centerpiece of my studio.

And I found peace...

They have m908 which goes up to Dolby Atmos 22.2 but has a relevant price tag.


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## jcrosby (Mar 27, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> I am expecting a Genelec 7360A to arrive mid April. I will be eventually be in a 2.1 setup.
> It was a bit of a concern on how to drive the sub volume independently, being able to switch between at least 2 monitor sets, mute, switch to headphones dimming the monitor volume with 1 button, etc.
> 
> Doing all that through my interface could have been a torture.
> ...


One other option is the Dangerous Music Monitor ST... It's 2.1 by default but can be expanded for various surround formats as needed... It also allows you to discretely control the level of the sub per monitor set, adjust I/O levels per device, etc... All of which is stored and recalled when switching monitors or input devices.. 

It also fetches a premium price tag, but that's the reality of monitor controllers... You won't find this level of granular control with the option of modular expandability in a consumer grade product.


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## pmountford (Mar 28, 2021)

chillbot said:


> Just bought another LSR310S as replacement.


Hi @chillbot, as a Dynaudio user I'm curious why you didn't replace with same brand sub? Interested as I'm 'subless' here so if you think JBL complements your Dynaudio's just fine then that would save me a few $$! (Or even ££)


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## chillbot (Mar 28, 2021)

pmountford said:


> Hi @chillbot, as a Dynaudio user I'm curious why you didn't replace with same brand sub?


No real reason. I.e. laziness?

To be honest, I think I could _probably_ tell the difference between a $50 sub and a $500 sub but once you get into a certain price range I'm fairly certain my ears would not be able to distinguish between brands. Interested to hear other's thoughts on this though.

I always have two sets of speakers in the studio, one that I write on and one that I mix on though I kinda mix on both because I like to A/B. I had the JBL LSR4328Ps + LSR12P sub and the Dynaudio BM15As + BX30 sub. For some reason subs tend to die on me, not sure why. Anyway they both died, separately, and had to be replaced but in the mean time we figured out (or my assistant did) that via the Dangerous Remote I can send the sub signal out separately and don't need to send the speaker audio through the subs, allowing me to just use one sub for both speakers, which saves a bunch of room in the studio. So I went from having $4,000 worth of subs to just the little JBL 310S and it seems to be plenty for me, which is ironic because I've since swapped out for the LYD48s and the Adam Audio A77Xs. No more JBLs except for the sub.


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## Thomas Costantino (Aug 19, 2022)

Pier said:


> Anyone tried one of those Subpacs?
> 
> It's like a wearable subwoofer attached to your body.
> 
> https://subpac.com/[/URL


Very curious about this product- especially if proper monitoring can be accomplished at lower volume levels while getting an exiting perception of bass; as if it were louder. 

Maybe worth staring a new thread topic ?


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## ZeroZero (Aug 19, 2022)

I have a 5.1 system. Usually I am working with my sub off. If the end goal is stereo then I think it’s best to work in stereo. Many top engineers listen to their projects on small stereos and even transistor radios, because they know that is what their buyers will hear. 
when I am working in 5.1 I also turn off the sub for day to day composing. Cubase surround planner has a function for this, so no signal is lost and my other speakers are not small. I do this because it would be aurally exhausting for me to listen all day to the thuds. When getting to the end of a composition, then the sub is turned on and there is a final mix for a 5.1 destination


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## BassClef (Aug 19, 2022)

...just a hobbyist here in a 13' square, untreated room. Focal Alpha 6.5 monitors and a 10" Elac 3010 sub only rated down to 28. I don't use the sub often due to room anomalies. Rather than spending more money on treatments, monitors and subs, I'll like try a more detailed and revealing pair of cans... The new Audeze MM-500 maybe.


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## hlecedre (Aug 19, 2022)

Yes, I use a pair of ADAM S2X paired with a Dynaudio 18S subwoofer. I use a subwoofer since my satellites are only designed to reproduce down to about 35-40Hz before the roll off becomes apparent. So, below that frequency range, the subwoofer takes over. Now, unless you have some 3-way amp'd monitoring system that can do 20Hz - 20KHz, which I don't, I am glad that I have a subwoofer to cover the low end range well.


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## X-Bassist (Aug 19, 2022)

Thomas Costantino said:


> Very curious about this product- especially if proper monitoring can be accomplished at lower volume levels while getting an exiting perception of bass; as if it were louder.
> 
> Maybe worth staring a new thread topic ?


Yes, I would start a new thread since this is over a year old. But I'm not sure if these pacs are completely safe. After working mixing concerts when I was younger, having 20Hz-60Hz pounding on your back may not be good for your back long term. Then again it may be great to loosen up a bad back, two for one!








WHAT IS SUBPAC? - SUBPAC


SUBPAC is a bass system using patented tactile audio technology that fully immerses music producers, gamers, and other creators to FEEL the beat.




subpac.com





But this new one that goes on your chair (or back) could be cool. Has sub management software for it too. Pretty cool. I may look into that. $500 is a little steep ($700 with the hand controller) and it's still in pre-order.








SUBPAC PRO - SUBPAC


SUBPAC offers top-tier bass monitoring solutions so you can feel the beat on stage or in the studio. Easily pairs with your in-ear monitoring system too.




subpac.com


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## tmhuud (Aug 19, 2022)

X-Bassist said:


> But this new one that goes on your chair (or back) could be cool. Has sub management software for it too. Pretty cool. I may look into that. $500 is a little steep ($700 with the hand controller) and it's still in pre-order.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love it! Might give me a much needed back massage too!


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## zeng (Aug 29, 2022)

Hello, anyone using Focal Sub6 here? If so what is your output level and LP hz?


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## wsimpson (Dec 5, 2022)

For those working in 5.1, do you take an output from your audio device directly into the sub or do you take the LR outputs from the audio device into the sub and then into the LR monitors? I know you can do either, I just don't know why you would do one over the other, except I keep hearing to leave the LFE alone for the most part which makes driving monitors with the sub make sense.


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## Alchemedia (Dec 5, 2022)

I have 2 mini schnauzers. 🐶


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## ZeroZero (Dec 5, 2022)

wsimpson said:


> For those working in 5.1, do you take an output from your audio device directly into the sub or do you take the LR outputs from the audio device into the sub and then into the LR monitors? I know you can do either, I just don't know why you would do one over the other, except I keep hearing to leave the LFE alone for the most part which makes driving monitors with the sub make sense.


I don’t understand this question. You need a 5.1 amp for Surround. The sub is the .1. Therefore six channels. A front stereo pair, a rear stereo pair, a channel for sub and another for a centre channel between your two front speakers. You also need a sequencer set up for 5.1


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## Stringtree (Dec 5, 2022)

There's nothing else I've heard on the couch like DTS-HD Master audio coming off a Blu-ray.

@ZeroZero is on the case. You need a specialized 5.1 amplifier, or have enough moxie to set up your own audio interface to effect actual 5.1 playtime and mixing.

The sub in my music setup adds real power, and I'd miss it terribly if it were to disappear.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 6, 2022)

Stringtree said:


> @ZeroZero is on the case. You need a specialized 5.1 amplifier, or have enough moxy to set up your own 8-output audio interface to effect actual 5.1 playtime and mixing.


You can get a lot of older 5.1 amps on ebay for a cracking price. I use a Sony STR- DB 780. This is a higher end Surround sound amp which people no longer like because it does not have blue tooth, USB etc (you don't need this on an amp). There is one on ebay at the mo for £30. They range from £25-100. They are heavy powerful 100w per channel beasts. My volume is rarely above a quarter dial. Lot's of inputs on the back. Purist will say they color the sound, but I have been happy with them through my Tannoy monitors. All amps color sound. https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/sony/str-db780.shtml

Z


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## Per Boysen (Dec 6, 2022)

I used to have a sub in the past, but now I find it more convenient to use headphones for those subtones. Or watch them by visualizing plugins. The problem with a sub is that you have to walk away far in order to hear it properly, you can't really judge when sitting at the desk/board. But it all depends on the room of course.


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## GtrString (Dec 6, 2022)

I've just decoupled my sub due to some reorganizing, and I miss it already. Never used it for critical listening, but as a system unit for regular listening, I feel it adds depth and warmth to the sound in a room.


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## easyrider (Dec 6, 2022)

Added an Adam Sub 7 to my Adam AX5 Monitors.

All I can say is wow!

AX5 are more detailed and articulate Dues to them only concentrating on low mids, mids and highs.


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## cedricm (Dec 6, 2022)

It's a reappearing thread, so I don't know how relevant this post will be.
I heard a well-known YouTuber advising to forego a subwoofer for mixing in small rooms.
I couldn't disagree more.

Setting a subwoofer so that the crossover is between 85 and 120 Hz greatly helps most 5-8 inches monitors for the low end. Even if small rooms exaggerate very low end and bass traps are a must.

In big rooms, it's even recommended to get 2 or 4 subwoofers.

I'm quite sure I heard Alan Meyerson say he had a sub for low end improvement and a separate one for LFE.


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## wsimpson (Dec 6, 2022)

So for those producing and mixing music, how do you route sound to your subwoofer? For example, I am in Cubase 12 Pro and I have a few options. Use a 5.1 bus and then use the Multipanner and add some LFE with the knob in the lower right. Given the multipanner is essentially quad that is the only way to get sound over to the subwoofer that I can see using this panner. Or I could create a sub bus and route sound there, but even then that sounds like an all or nothing approach per track which doesn't feel right. How does one get low end improvement in a simple way in a Cubase 5.1 studio? I think I am missing something simple here.


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## Stringtree (Dec 6, 2022)

Subwoofer (my thrift store JBL is powered) has two knobs. Volume and crossover frequency. 

Audio interface has multiple outs, so I just take the main outs to the mains, then a copy to the sub. Tweak knobs to taste; happiness. 

I obtain a copy (L+R) through the interface's mixer app, then the subwoofer self-selects via the crossover freq. It's not going to reproduce highs anyway.


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## Lunatique (Dec 14, 2022)

I have to have a sub in my studio because if I don't, the room mode at my listening position will weaken the sub-bass frequencies from about 65 Hz and down. With a sub, it takes over the sub-bass and because it's placed at a different part of the studio, the room modes don't null those frequencies for the sub. 

I have acoustic treatments, and then on top of that, I use IK Multimedia's ARC System to do room corrections so I get almost ruler flat frequency response at my listening position.


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## HCMarkus (Dec 14, 2022)

Probably mentioned earlier in this thread, but being able to switch your sub in and out is a big help as you fine-tune bottom end. The sub will give you that lowest octave or two so, when it is switched in, you can avoid over emphasizing low end, and you are less likely to miss undesirable low frequency pops and rumbles. With the sub out, you can check to make sure your bottom end still speaks on smaller speakers. Having a second set of monitors with different size woofers helps, too.


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## David Kudell (Dec 14, 2022)

Adding a sub did wonders for my setup, however the only way I considered it is because my speakers have auto-calibration and they take care of all the volumes, room correction, and crossover between the speakers and the sub. Otherwise I probably wouldn’t really be confident in the mix. I have the Genelec glm system.


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