# WIVI Woodwinds now available



## Wallander (Nov 8, 2007)

*WIVI Woodwinds now available for Win VST, Mac AU and Mac VST.*

WIVI Woodwinds is a new instrument collection in the WIVI series, containing a large array of the traditional instruments included in an orchestral woodwind section.


*http://www.wallanderinstruments.com/audio/W_A_Mozart_Gran_Partita.mp3 (Audio demo)*


*New instruments and prices are:*

- Concert Flutes, $99
- Piccolo Flutes, $79
- Alto Flutes, $79
- Bass Flutes, $79
- Modern Oboes, $99
- Oboe d'Amore, $79
- English Horns, $79
- A- and Bb-Clarinets, $129
- Eb-Clarinets, $79
- Bass Clarinets, $79
- Contrabass Clarinets, $79
- Modern Bassoons, $99
- Contrabassoons, $79

More info available at http://www.wallanderinstruments.com.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 8, 2007)

Sounds great but... you will also sell a complete woodwinds package, right?


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## Wallander (Nov 8, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu 08 Nov said:


> Sounds great but... you will also sell a complete woodwinds package, right?


For now at least, it will be marketed like the Brass. Meaning instruments are always sold separately, so that you can choose not to buy the full package at once without missing out on the discounts. 

Another problem is, using our current setup, it would be technically impossible to give that discount unless you purchase all instruments _at once_. I'm not sure that I personally would like to have it that way, given that a lot of people would prefer to be able to purchase only a few instruments at a time. 

However if a package discount would become available in the future, there would most likely be some sort of compensation to early adopters who missed the discount, like a set of free instruments from a future release.


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## Waywyn (Nov 8, 2007)

Wallander @ Thu Nov 08 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu 08 Nov said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds great but... you will also sell a complete woodwinds package, right?
> ...



So I get a discount if I buy more than xx products?

Does WIVI now run on Cubase on IntelMAC?

The woods sound really cool. I just have the same problem with the attack. Seems that it is always the same ... well, I would use the word sample, but there are no, right?


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## Wallander (Nov 8, 2007)

Waywyn @ Thu 08 Nov said:


> So I get a discount if I buy more than xx products?
> 
> Does WIVI now run on Cubase on IntelMAC?
> 
> The woods sound really cool. I just have the same problem with the attack. Seems that it is always the same ... well, I would use the word sample, but there are no, right?


Sorry, no. The system is built up around buying the instruments you need for a fixed price. 

I think there are still some issues with Cubase 4 on Mac. There have been some reports of difficulties with C4 on PC as well, but everyone don't seem to have this. Full C4 compatibility is scheduled for the next player update.

Well, technically the attack is _never _the same, but I see your point. There's a greater span when you have a real player. A real attack can involve anything from audible spitting to guttural sounds and ghost notes, which aren't easy to generalize and even harder to synthesize. The attacks aren't sampled no, they're pure synthesis.


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## Waywyn (Nov 8, 2007)

Wallander @ Thu Nov 08 said:


> Waywyn @ Thu 08 Nov said:
> 
> 
> > So I get a discount if I buy more than xx products?
> ...



Hey and thanks a lot for your reply.

Looking forward to test it. I know that I could test the demo in Garage Band, but I would prefer my environment .. but I should try that.

about the attack: I see that the attacks are never the same, but it doesn't sound so. If I have a simple round robin sample staccato program, I hear more changing notes, than on these demos. I experienced the same with the brass. Generally the sound is cool, ... well, everything is cool, but the attack or repetition notes always sound as if it would be the same synthesis over and over again. This is just my opinion ... otherwise everything sounds really really great!


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## OLB (Nov 8, 2007)

Congrats with the release!  Have been listening to the demos on the site and it sounds very good but for my taste also a little too clean. Indeed the attack and transitions between the notes.. 

Wallander, outstanding job! =o


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## Wallander (Nov 8, 2007)

Waywyn @ Thu 08 Nov said:


> about the attack: I see that the attacks are never the same, but it doesn't sound so. If I have a simple round robin sample staccato program, I hear more changing notes, than on these demos. I experienced the same with the brass. Generally the sound is cool, ... well, everything is cool, but the attack or repetition notes always sound as if it would be the same synthesis over and over again. This is just my opinion ... otherwise everything sounds really really great!


I absolutely agree with you on the round robin comparison. But I feel obliged to add, I've never met a real wind player with that level of inconsistency when playing repeated notes. And to be honest, if I did, I'd replace him/her. As would most professional orchestras I believe. So I'm personally not a big fan of RR, as I think it hurts realism more than it helps, which makes me a bit biased in this case.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 8, 2007)

I am in the same boat with both of you. I don't like the concept of RR very much because it is so arbitrary ... but I think an attack that is controllable by the playing or a cc is a very good thing.


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## JBacal (Nov 8, 2007)

Impressive achievement!!! Congrats.

Best,
Jay


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## Blackster (Nov 8, 2007)

@Wallander:
Sounds very impressive. Congrats to the release. 
Are you going to create the other woodwinds (like oboe, bassoon, etc.) as well. Personally I´m not so much interested in buying single instruments but if there´s the whole woodwind section available ... referring to your results of achieving realism with your technology that´s gonna become very very interesting. 

All the best,

Blackster


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## tfishbein82 (Nov 8, 2007)

Blackster @ Thu Nov 08 said:


> @Wallander:
> Sounds very impressive. Congrats to the release.
> Are you going to create the other woodwinds (like oboe, bassoon, etc.) as well. Personally I´m not so much interested in buying single instruments but if there´s the whole woodwind section available ... referring to your results of achieving realism with your technology that´s gonna become very very interesting.
> 
> ...


???

He released every standard woodwind. You just have the option of buying whichever ones you want. Buy oboes, bassoons, and bass clarinets if you like or flutes, contrabass bassoons and Eb Clarinets.

They're all available.


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## Blackster (Nov 8, 2007)

AAaaaahhh, allright !! .... I´ve only seen the flute section in his online-store on his website .... ähem .... after scrolling down .... :oops: ..... there are many more instruments .... :!: 

My fault ... sorry.


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## handz (Nov 8, 2007)

Sounds nice! But IMO it is a too expensive if you want to buy them all


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## Angel (Nov 8, 2007)

this "buy-what-you-need-thing" seems to overcharge some of the music-only-brains in here, eh?


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## IvanP (Nov 8, 2007)

Wow, excellent setup of demos! No tease at all, just listen and buy...that's great marketing and it shows you've been busy lately! 

Now I need to listen everything...so far so good.

here's my 1st questions:

* how much can you custom change the timbre of the instrument and is there an option to have more / less keys sound?

* are the dynamics and playing based on real performance? (i.e. not being possible to play ff in low D in piccolo or play pp at high C in flute, impossible trills, etc)?

* is it also possible to do bends in clarinets? and glissandi?

Thanks, 

Iván


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## Christian Marcussen (Nov 8, 2007)

handz @ Thu Nov 08 said:


> Sounds nice! But IMO it is a too expensive if you want to buy them all



Yeah, I tend to agree. Second only to VSL in price 

But I like it, and have all the brass. But the price is too steep to have me just take the plunge... But I guess that's because I'm pretty happy with VSL.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 8, 2007)

959 USD which currently is about 660 EUR plus credit card fees for the whole package.


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## Wallander (Nov 8, 2007)

IvanP @ Thu 08 Nov said:


> Wow, excellent setup of demos! No tease at all, just listen and buy...that's great marketing and it shows you've been busy lately!
> 
> Now I need to listen everything...so far so good.
> 
> ...


You cannot alter the sound on partial-level, but you can choose to shift the formants of the instruments up and down, roughly equal to changing the size of the instrument. Shifting up usually gives a more nasal timbre, and shifting down a more round, mellow timbre. You can also control this through MIDI CC changes, or you can attach it to the dynamics (to, for example, make it more nasal when playing FFF but more mellow when playing PPP).

All dynamics are real, meaning you won't be able to go beyong a real instrument's dynamic. Sometimes you may be able to play a bit softer than a real player (this threshold level is adjustable) but the idea have always been to use the same constraints as that of a real player.


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## tobyond (Nov 8, 2007)

Wow, it sounds awesome! That is the first decent Oboe sound I have ever heard in the virtual realm. Congrats!!


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## José Herring (Nov 8, 2007)

Oh the horrors of hearing all my beloved pieces reproduced by artificial means. Maybe I'm too close to this music but....... this isn't for me.


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## tobyond (Nov 8, 2007)

josejherring @ Thu Nov 08 said:


> Oh the horrors of hearing all my beloved pieces reproduced by artificial means. Maybe I'm too close to this music but....... this isn't for me.



Gran Partita is one of my favorite too, and I thought it sounded quite good. There was something natural and expressive to the sound as opposed to what our best libraries can do. Of course you can never sound like the real thing, but this would fool 99.99% of the folks out there.


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## artsoundz (Nov 8, 2007)

Re-peat- I'm lookiing for a decent Jazz flute. I have Westgate but haven't been able to get a satisfying Jazz sound. 

Do any of these Wallander flutes have potential for that sound? After all, the trumpets get pretty close.Thanks in advance.


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## Waywyn (Nov 8, 2007)

josejherring @ Thu Nov 08 said:


> Don't mind me. I clearly have issues being a solo clarinet virtuoso that has to turn to samples to make a living. (o)



Besides that, don't we all know that real instruments ALWAYS sound better? This is not the point. The point is, how close come samples to the real thing ... close ... not replace 'em.

Furthermore I think it is a big phenomenon that a musician playing a certain instrument ALWAYS more or less dislikes the libs of that kind. I have read so many string or trumpet players posts commenting on VSL, EWQL or SISS. It is always the same.

If I am scoring a big movie or work on a huge game project (as I do currently) I'd be mad to choose libs (only) ... but for smaller or low budget stuff, it is the only way to work with samples.


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## re-peat (Nov 8, 2007)

Artsoundz,

I've purchased some of these woodwinds only a few hours ago, so I'm affraid it is still a bit too soon for me to tell if any of the WIVI flutes will do quite as nicely in a jazz setting as Roberto has proven that the WIVI trumpet can. On first hearing though and without having dug into all the possible settings, I doubt it. The WIVI flutes may be just a bit too characterless and tame for jaòî   fQòî   fQóî   fQôî   fQõî   fQöî   fQ÷î   fQøî   fQùî   fQúï   fQûï   fQüï   fQýï   fQþï   fQÿï   fR ï   fRï   fRï   fRï   fRï   fRï   fRï   fRï   fRï   fR	ï   fR
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## artsoundz (Nov 8, 2007)

I was afraid of that. The search continues. Thanks.


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## José Herring (Nov 8, 2007)

re-peat @ Thu Nov 08 said:


> Jose,
> 
> You can kick me off the surface of this planet for being as patronizing as I'm about to be, but perhaps you should learn to embrace these new instruments for what they are and, just as importantly, for what they are not. Forget that you're a clarinet virtuoso. That's a completely irrelevant thought in this context and, even worse, a most paralyzing inhibition.
> The one simple and relevant truth here is that you can make beautiful and beautiful sounding music with these WIVI instruments. Nothing 'mad' about it whatsoever.
> ...



I agree completely. That's why I think we should all stop pretending that we have real instruments. Show me what Wivi can do not what it obviously can't accomplish. What it can't accomplish is a convincing simulation of a piece that was written for real instruments. So show me what it can do and why it might be better than what we already have.


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## Daryl (Nov 9, 2007)

josejherring @ Fri Nov 09 said:


> That's why I think we should all stop pretending that we have real instruments. Show me what Wivi can do not what it obviously can't accomplish. What it can't accomplish is a convincing simulation of a piece that was written for real instruments. So show me what it can do and why it might be better than what we already have.


But surely if you know the limitations of the software, then this is useful? Hearing demos that just consist of inane Taiko loops, chanting choirs and loud noises tells me nothing about the samples that they are trying to hide. A demo like this shows exactly where the shortcomings are. Is this demo going to sell CDs of Mozart's music? No. Is it supposed to? No.

FWIW perhaps you now understand how I feel when I hear members of this forum waxing lyrical about solo string samples. They're all cr*p; just some more cr*p than others. :lol: 

D


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## sbkp (Nov 9, 2007)

All acoustic guitar samples are crap, too, by the way. I bet you didn't know _that_.


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## Daryl (Nov 9, 2007)

sbkp @ Fri Nov 09 said:


> All acoustic guitar samples are crap, too, by the way. I bet you didn't know _that_.


I do now.

D


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## rayinstirling (Nov 9, 2007)

What a forum this is for musicians? Complainers continuing to spend most hours with a new product trying to prove what it can’t do. Negative followed by negative. Members then, continuing to debate the FACT that nothing compares with great instrument/s played by a great musician/s. Well in the real world most users of virtual instruments don’t buy them or demo them for the sake of critique. They just want to get a job done. That’s not an excuse for buying and using crap but most of what I hear in modern vi’s are not crap or anything near crap. They’re just not the REAL deal. I’m a guitarist who knows guitar samples are not the best. I’ve bought trumpets, trombones and now clarinets from Wallander. I think they’re great but what would I know as a two bit guitarist.

How to make friends and influence people? I've obviously no idea.


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## Daryl (Nov 9, 2007)

A developer is running a business. I can be as critical as I like, as I am the potential customer. They don't have to sell to me if they don't need my money.

D


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## Wallander (Nov 9, 2007)

*The Trial Edition has been updated to also include trial versions (restricted range) of:*

_- Concert Flute 1
- Modern Oboe 1
- A-Clarinet 1
- Modern Bassoon 1_

Now available for download from here.


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## Craig Sharmat (Nov 9, 2007)

Daryl @ Fri Nov 09 said:


> sbkp @ Fri Nov 09 said:
> 
> 
> > All acoustic guitar samples are crap, too, by the way. I bet you didn't know _that_.
> ...



All electric guitar samples are not crap btw. I remember a time when people said the electric guitar could not be sampled effectively. There are a couple of libraries out which do a nice job. 

On the subject of the WIVI Winds i hear mostly legato phrases in the demos. When orchestrating one of the most useful uses of winds is fast runs and embellishments, especially in the upper winds. It would be good to have demos which show if the winds can show some dexterity.


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## Niah (Nov 9, 2007)

Wallander @ Fri Nov 09 said:


> *The Trial Edition has been updated to also include trial versions (restricted range) of:*
> 
> _- Concert Flute 1
> - Modern Oboe 1
> ...



Thanks it's great that you are doing this ! o-[][]-o 

I just want to applaude for another great product from Wallander. I'm not going to dispute how realistic those pieces sound with the WIVI or not I just wanna say that these woodwinds are perhaps the best so far IMHO, plust the software that comes with it provides you with endless possibilities.


Now to try that demo. o=<


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## re-peat (Nov 9, 2007)

Sampled and virtual instruments will always remain 'crap' als long as one remains unable to move beyond the conservative and narrowminded idea that these instruments are no more than substitutes for something else.
If you expect your new girlfriend to substitute for your old girlfriend (who, for whatever reason, moved out of your life), you're not doing anyone a service: neither of those girlfriends (cause you're treating both with a tremendous lack of respect) and not yourself either, cause you will only be feeding your dissappointment and you'll get ever more frustrated. 

And it's the exact same thing with these instruments: the moment you approach sampled and virtual instruments as completely valid and true musical instruments in their own right (which is what they are), they start coming to live and can be equally as satisfying and rewarding to write for as any other instrument in the world. Sampled and virtual instruments are in no way inferior to real instruments, they're different, that's all. They may share a superficial likeness but underneath, they are fundamentally different. Accept, respect and exploit those differences and all of the frustration will immediately go away.

If you write music making use of, say, the WIVI horn, then write FOR the WIVI horn and not for whatever idea you might have that a real horn should be. A WIVI horn is not a real horn (and vice versa) and thus should never be expected to behave as one. Good orchestration with sampled and virtual instruments is NOT what Rimsky-Korsakov or Berlioz wrote about - their books are dealing with totally different instruments -, no, good orchestration in "the sampled and virtual today" is (just as it was in Rimsky's day) recognizing and learning the specific characteristics of the instruments you're writing for and making optimal use of them in the music that you write. That, I believe, is a much healthier, more intelligent, more musical and ultimately far more rewarding approach than stupidly keeping mistaking one instrument for another.

_


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## Wallander (Nov 9, 2007)

Regarding jazz articulations, it must be said that WIVI is more targeted at traditional styles, overall. The WIVI instruments are much more "controlled" than a real instrument, which is the constraint you get when you replace hundreds of variables that affect the sound of a real flute into a single MIDI CC and key velocity. 

With a real flute, you can choose how to shape your lips, what angle to blow, different fingering, and so on. And I'd be lying if I claimed you can just load up WIVI, press a few notes, and get the sound of a professional jazz flautist. No matter what WIVI can do or cannot do, you're still lacking the _performance _of a trained jazz flautist in that case. 

On the other hand, if you want to be able to control the dynamics effortlessly, make custom trills and runs on the fly, achieve perfect section blending and expressive phrasing, WIVI can get you very far.

Another key point is what your DAW looks like, and what kind of setup you want. If you have a network of slave computers at your disposal then you have a lot of choices in terms of sample libraries. I personally like being able to take my DAW with me, and I currently have a rock-stable laptop setup (CPU wise) which loads in about 10 seconds, used for these demos for example:

http://www.wallanderinstruments.com/audio/Bruckner_Symphony_No_4_1.mp3
http://www.wallanderinstruments.com/audio/Wagner_Tannhauser_Overture.mp3

and there's no way I could come close to that without WIVI, both in terms of performance and results. Especially considering that all wind voices are sequenced as solo instruments, and can do all kinds of divisi.


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## Jack Weaver (Nov 9, 2007)

Excellent posting re-peat. You cover a lot of subjects in a few short paragraphs. 

I agree virtual instruments are what they are and we should employ & enjoy them for what they are. Just like other relationships. 

I also agree with Craig that the usage of short & high articulations are conspicuously missing in the WiVi demos. It's probably like the WiVi brass (which I own) that are best used for some things and not for others. 

I'll probably end up purchasing some this collection but I don't expect it to fit all occaisions. 


.


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## rayinstirling (Nov 9, 2007)

Thank you re-peat for posting your views in a more articulate way than this straightforward Scotsman. From the time I bought my first Roland GM Sound Canvas until now I’ve always thought of virtual/sampled instruments as a means to create a pleasing effect along with real instruments including singing of which I’m about to do in a few hours time. The same is true creating sound tracks for film/TV. If the composition is good enough there will be more than enough musical directors and conductors interested in performing said works live!

Ray


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 9, 2007)

Hey Arne - your Bruckner mockup is really nice! Thanks for posting that.


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## Trev Parks (Nov 9, 2007)

Wallander @ Fri Nov 09 said:


> Another key point is what your DAW looks like, and what kind of setup you want. If you have a network of slave computers at your disposal then you have a lot of choices in terms of sample libraries. I personally like being able to take my DAW with me, and I currently have a rock-stable laptop setup (CPU wise) which loads in about 10 seconds and there's no way I could come close to that without WIVI, both in terms of performance and results. Especially considering that all wind voices are sequenced as solo instruments, and can do all kinds of divisi.



Precisely the reason I'm such a fan. Loading up an entire brass section on one computer alongside most of the other instruments has been such a pleasure. Best of all, you can perform with them so effortlessly and use them to spice up what you have. Plus the interface is very inspired.

Many of the new woodwinds (especially that oboe) sound full of potential so I'm looking forward to buying them (albeit gradually!).


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## Olias (Nov 9, 2007)

Yeah, no kidding... $1000 on a couple of audio interfaces for slave computers? Or $1000 on new instruments and a (hopefully) streamlined workflow. Easy decision.

Now, where's that drawer full of Canadian dollars I've been hording for the last 100 years!?


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## Waywyn (Nov 9, 2007)

Hey Wallander,

now beat me, hit me, spill fuel over me and ignite me, but .... :

*NOW STRINGS!!!!111oneoneeleven*


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## midphase (Nov 9, 2007)

" Meaning instruments are always sold separately, so that you can choose not to buy the full package at once without missing out on the discounts. "

I get the feeling that by the time the full orchestra is out, the total cost will make VSL look like a bargain bin item.


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## artsoundz (Nov 9, 2007)

Yeah- Re-peat- you said it. I'm going to save that and send to my clients when they make snide comments.Only change I'd make is to underlne ,in bold ,the word"stupid".

Also-Thanks Wallander for your Jazz flute comments. I love your trumpet library and I think the flute library isnt that faroff for Jazz. For me, right now my go to, most fun to play flute is Yamaha's Motif jaz flute. It's only two layers but it ,by far, puts out that aggresive, lively sound. It's just plain fun to play.

Also, I'm a vibes player at heart. I use Hans Adamson's vibe samples more often than my live vibes.

If anybody is going to put me out of business playing live vibes, it will be me! 

Samples rule! live music is best!


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## VonRichter (Nov 9, 2007)

re-peat @ Fri Nov 09 said:


> Sampled and virtual instruments will always remain 'crap' als long as one remains unable to move beyond the conservative and narrowminded idea that these instruments are no more than substitutes for something else.
> _



Er... that''s exactly what they are. Attempts to emulate their real-life counterparts. It's hardly "narrow minded" to use them as such. Do you really suppose Wallander's goal with these is _not_ to emulate the real thing as closely as possible?

What's really "narrow minded" is to not explore synthesis to it's full capabilities _without reference to real instruments_. In other words, if synths are their own thing (which they are), why limit yourself to a synthesized horn emulation?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2007)

"So show me what it can do and why it might be better than what we already have"

Jose, do you have an EWI or a WX? That's why it's better than what we already have. Same with the brass.

There's no programming or articulation-switching - you just play. Now, I haven't tried the ww yet, but the brass doesn't sound as good as samples; I wouldn't want to do an entire orchestra of WIVI. However, mixed in with samples it's totally fab.

And if you don't have an EWI and you're a clarinet virtuoso, you need one right now.


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## Frederick Russ (Nov 9, 2007)

Waywyn @ Fri Nov 09 said:


> Hey Wallander,
> 
> now beat me, hit me, spill fuel over me and ignite me, but .... :
> 
> *NOW STRINGS!!!!111oneoneeleven*



I completely agree (with the strings part, although the beating and igniting part sounds intriguing too.)


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 10, 2007)

Waywyn @ Fri Nov 09 said:


> Hey Wallander,
> 
> now beat me, hit me, spill fuel over me and ignite me, but .... :
> 
> *NOW STRINGS!!!!111oneoneeleven*


Next will be sax :| :| :| !!!


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## germancomponist (Nov 10, 2007)

I want to listen to more demos recorded by each instrument...


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## david robinson (Nov 11, 2007)

hi,
Wallander,
thank you for developing such a playable instrument.
i always view VI's as different to the real deal.
these daze, the real deal isn't such a good deal anyway.
too expensive to mount.
the alternative is VI's ans Sample libs.
own both, love both.
i treat everything as a new instrument, but i do respect the tradition of real instruments.
my work's benefiting from VI's such as yours.
Thank you again.
DR9.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 11, 2007)

What David says.

When I am needing brass I use WIVI most of the time because they change my behaviour compared to samples. I get into a "playing mode" in which I have great fun while recording. And most times like the result. I will fall back to SAM brass sometimes exchanging the one or other but WIVI is my first option.


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## re-peat (Nov 11, 2007)

VonRichter @ Sat Nov 10 said:


> Er... that''s exactly what they are. Attempts to emulate their real-life counterparts.(...)


VonRichter,

No, they're not. They're only that if you treat them that way (from which moment their limitations become very apparent). I believe these virtual instruments become much more powerful and expressive when treated as instruments in their own right who happen to have enough exterior resemblance to real instruments to allow them _to be given similar musical ideas as one would give to real instruments_.
That's why I always liked Synful so much: I don't use it in an attempt to fool the listener into thinking it's a real instrument, I use it on its own terms and Synful (like WIVI) - if programmed well - speaks a language very similar to the language of real instruments and hence it doesn't kill the musical ideas which I write for it. An 'abstract synth-sound' would. Believe me, I've tried arranging some of my music for synths and electronically more adventurous sounds, but it always turns out that those are not the type of sounds with which my music is served best. Synful and WIVI, on the other hand, have often proven to be great and very satisfying instruments to write for. So much so that I'm not left frustrated in any way by the fact that the music is performed the way it is and sounds the way it does. 

I'm well aware though that all of this comes very close to being a somewhat delusive argument and that not many of my points hold up when one is (professionaly) required to create convincing mock-ups (a task which usually frustrates me beyond description and, lucky for me, which I rarely have to do).

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