# Sad to say but I think hardware synths are dead...



## dpasdernick (Oct 31, 2010)

I used to go to my local music store in vancouver Canada and drool over the latest and greatest synths. Oberheim, Sequential Circuits, Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Akai, Emu, Ensoniq, Kawai, Moog, ARP, etc all had several models out that did different things. One would sample, one was FM synthesis, additive, LA, drum machines, etc, etc. Every 6months to year it seemed like a new paradigm shift would happen with these companies and a slew of new machines would be unvailed.

I just returned from my local Guitar Center here in Dallas. (as there are no other music stores that I know of close by that carry high end synths) I was underwhelmed to say the least. Roland had the Fantom and Juno lines (maybe 5 synths total), Yamaha had the Motif and a few digital pianos, and Korg had the M50. There were a bunch of controllers, a few drum machines and some smaller microKorg type synths. The string sounds on the Fantom can't touch the Vienna stuff. A ton of the patches on the Korg M-50 were one finger hip-hop grooves. Nothing inspired me.

I had the epiphany that there is no real variety as there are only a handfull of hardware manufacturers left. Roland, Korg and Yamaha. I know Alesis, Access, and Novation still make nice stuff but it wasn't represented at Guitar Center.

Maybe I'm just a late 40's old guy pining for the "good old days" but I sure miss it. Nothing better than finding a used Roland JX-8P for $800 and being able to trade in your Crumar String Machine on it 

I have so many soft synths now I can't keep track. I've been seriously considering buying a Roland D-50 just to try and get a little more hardware into my setup.

Wondering if any of you guys or girls have felt the same way? (now if I only had 17K for the Fairlight that's about to be re-released)

Darren


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## gsilbers (Oct 31, 2010)

i have the virus TI which has the best of both worlds. its plugin integration is great and wish other hardware synth did the same. 

with that said, there are some like the tera4 which has a software plugin controller, i might try because its small and all analog so it be cool to try. 

the other is moog has a software application to edit patches and such, which seems cool. 

for me and many synth lovers is all about the tact and control which lacks in DAW softsynths. there are options of course but nothing like real control, right there and now, fast and predictable, its an instrument right? 

there is a new novation synth that just came out which seems promising. but ive tried the xiosynth and the other small one and didnt like it. seemed i was playing a softsynth. 

i think also that guitar centers and the like changed their biz becuase of online retailers, so they keep afloat because no one is going to buy a guitar online, u wanna play it feel it before buying it. and the synth dept is just like for DJs and kids that have low end stuff or pianos. 

but music is ever changing nowadays with all this new tech so who knows... still there are hardcore synth fans..


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## JPQ (Oct 31, 2010)

To me they are not dead but some kind sounds what i like are harder get with software (even some sample based synth sounds and at least omnisphere and powerfull computer is also pricey which maybe is good solution for few of them)
and sometimes is nice play sounds without soundloading times. but still i mainly prefer software becouse i dont have room for big collection of synths and dont even money for them.
ps. my old dream studio (which newer completed i only owned qs6.1 without expansions) of (i mean 1998-1999) is this:
alesis qs6.1 + sanctuary + classical qcards
roland jv1080 + orchestral exampansion maybe others
nord lead
today is too limiting idea and i must add nord lead needs effect processors (to my taste guitar pedals are best i like virtual analog/analog sounds with analog effects)
but common or basic (i dont know which word is best one this time) soundtrack stuff software (i dont make it at least only) is better.


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## synergy543 (Oct 31, 2010)

If this were the case, then some manufacturer would be making a nice MIDI controller for virtual instruments. Since they're not, its clear the the hardware market is larger and more lucrative.


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## Farkle (Oct 31, 2010)

Jimbo 88 @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> What's a hardware synth??



Ehhh, something our grand-parents used to use to make music.

Heard they actually weighed over 20 lbs. _each_?!?!?!

Also heard you had to actually _move_ the parameters by turning _knobs and sliders_ on the actual unit... how 80's!

:shock: 

Farkle


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## synthetic (Oct 31, 2010)

Disagree. As would anyone who's played a GOOD analog synth.


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## chimuelo (Oct 31, 2010)

Why Yi Youghtta.....

The economy is based on disposability and growth.
There's no money in making a synth that lasts for decades.
But theres plenty of hardware if you have the money.

Whats really the issue is that most young folks dont care about subtractive synthesis, and Phased Mod/FM, or Wavetable. They want presets for convenience.

I actually still use hardwarò5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î5Œ   î 5Œ   î!5Œ   î"5Œ   î#5Œ   î$5Œ   î%5Œ   î&5Œ   î'5Œ   î(5Œ   î)5Œ   î*5Œ   î+5Œ   î,5Œ   î-5Œ   î.5Œ   î/5Œ   î05Œ   î15Œ   î25Œ   î35Œ   î45   î55   î65   î75   î85   î95   î:5   î;5   î<5   î=5   î>5   î?5   î@5   îA5   îB5   îC5   îD5   îE5   îF5   îG5   îH5   îI5   îJ5   îK5   îL5   îM5   îN5   îO5   îP5   îQ5   îR5   îS5   îT5   îU5   îV5   îW5   îX5   îY5   îZ5   î[5   î\5   î]5   î^5   î_5   î`5   îa5   îb5   îc5   îd5   îe5   îf5   îg5   îh5   îi5   îj5   îk5   îl5   îm5   în5   îo5   îp5   îq5   îr5   îs5   ît5   îu5   îv5   îw5   îx5


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## JPQ (Oct 31, 2010)

chimuelo @ Mon 01 Nov said:


> Whats really the issue is that most young folks dont care about subtractive synthesis, and Phased Mod/FM, or Wavetable. They want presets for convenience.



you forgot additive synthesis.


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## JPQ (Oct 31, 2010)

oops i again click report button... but i must add even hardware workstations have own uses to me and my style.


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## chimuelo (Oct 31, 2010)

The Akai had a great Breath Controller for Filter work too.
Great little 2 Osc design.

And yes I forgot to mention Additive synthesis.
The only synth I use like that is the B2003 Hammond PhysMod.
But for the Deep Purple medley I have to use an AmpSim and brake the Leslie emu for that fast crunch sound from Highway Star.
Never thought the stuff I woodshedded as a child I would ever do live.
But its a fad here in Vegas.

Good Thread........


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## José Herring (Oct 31, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Oct 31 said:


> As a moderator (okay, of the OT forum) I have to express extreme outrage at you people for liking hardware synths! How inappropriate!
> 
> Oh wait - you clicked the Report button by accident...
> 
> ...



I know it's funny how 20 years ago all the analog stuff was considered a bunch of shit. Now it's all the rage. Weird. I remember hearing a bunch of CS-80 stuff when I was in college and thought that it was the most dated piece of crap I'd ever heard. Today I'd die to get my hands on the CS-80.


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## snowleopard (Nov 1, 2010)

I have a Kurzweil K2600. I never use the sounds it makes, only as a controller. It does however have some nice sounds in it, and I believe the KDFX reverb in it is better than any soft reverb I've tried. But I still don't use it that way anymore. 

There definitely IS a place for hardware synths. But they lie in live performance, programming, and true analog synthesis.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 1, 2010)

I had a Polymoog, also known as the Synth That Killed Moog. I also had an OB-XA that was in and out of the shop constantly.

However, the reason i REALLY don't miss hardware synths was the MicroMoog I used as a bass synth (I was essentially the bass player) that went about a fourth to a fifth out of tune, wavering as I played each note-in front of 15,000 people at a concert in '82.

Hardware? Pass.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 1, 2010)

Right on! Get rid of that crap! In fact, if you have old Rolands, Korgs, Sequential Circuits, PPG, etc, synths that are gathering dust, just send them to me. For a limited-time only, I will take your old synths... for free! I may charge a bit if it's a big one, like the System 700. Also for a limited time, I will also take those cheap, plastic-y drum machines, like the TR-808 or 909.


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## rabiang (Nov 1, 2010)

i have a juno-106,jd800, tr 707, promix 01, a rack 303 emulator, a dp4, emu e64, s1000 etc just standing gathering dust. PM me if you want to buy.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 1, 2010)

Buy? No, no, I'm offering to take them off your hands, not buy them. :wink: :lol: 

PS: if you're serious about wanting to sell your old gear, try posting in the Gear For Sale forum on the Vintage Synth Explorerwebsite.


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## dpasdernick (Nov 1, 2010)

Maybe one of the things that was cool about hardware synths was the physicality of the thing itself. You'd bring home a huge box, open it up and there was your wicked shiny new machine with big thick manuals and tons of knobs and lights.

Today we download some code, check out the interface and then, maybe, crack open the pdf file manual. Plus, and I suppose this is good news, everything is pretty inexpensive these days. I paid $2500 canadian dollars for my Poly 6 and over $3000 for my ensoniq Mirage. When you lay out that much cash for something you tend to learn it inside and out. (wonder if I retaned any of the hexidecimal stuff)

Darren


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## rabiang (Nov 1, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> Buy? No, no, I'm offering to take them off your hands, not buy them. :wink: :lol:
> 
> PS: if you're serious about wanting to sell your old gear, try posting in the Gear For Sale forum on the Vintage Synth Explorerwebsite.



Thanks for the tip, just put an ad up there.


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## chimuelo (Nov 1, 2010)

Great advice using VSE.
Sold my ancient mint EML-101 there for 2600 USD.
Just because it has the original knobs and manual in mist condition.
Many guys who are collectors just shop there and can afford to collect synths.
Sad to think my old 101 won't probably be used for gigs, but at least I know it recieved a proper burial in a nice private collection....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2010)

> have a Kurzweil K2600. I never use the sounds it makes, only as a controller.



Same here with my K2500X.

But I should hook it up - there are some good sounds in there.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 1, 2010)

All of this said, who among us is primarily using hardware synths in their recording setup?


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## synergy543 (Nov 1, 2010)

All virtual here now although I do use my S90EX to play piano as I can access it with one click without loading samples. I'm glad they make this hardware keyboard - we do need 'some' hardware to run virtual instruments so we're dependent upon hardware surviving.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 1, 2010)

All of this said, who among us is primarily using hardware synths in their recording setup?


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## navidson (Nov 1, 2010)

I too will take any of those old, outdated analogue synths off anyone's hands. £100 for that Elka Synthex and Jupiter 8? Cò6®   îA6®   îA6®   îA6®   îA6®   îA	6®   îA
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## synergy543 (Nov 1, 2010)

I have a Mackie 16VLZ and an Mackie 32 x 8 that I'm still hanging on to. The smaller one is useful for portable recording, the larger one...jeez, I probably don't really need anymore.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 1, 2010)

NYC Composer @ 1/11/2010 said:


> All of this said, who among us is primarily using hardware synths in their recording setup?


I've got 5 vintage mono-synths, and I'm hoping to get a polyphonic synth from Sequential Circuits or Oberheim in the near future. They are being used in as many cues as possible. I still use Omni and Zebra though! :lol:  =o

Why old school, you may ask? This is why:







No memory storage? No problem! Just hit record... and go!


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## synergy543 (Nov 1, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> Why old school, you may ask? This is why:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh Yeah, baby! 

Fond memory of those days....walk into the studio, fire things up and make some music! 

No need to spend the day contacting tech support, dealing with copy-protection, battling support issues in forums... :(

Maybe I'm no longer "Experienced"? (I like your Avatar)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2010)

> Life was simpler. Maintenance was a much smaller piece of the time pie.



I don't have an opinion on the first sentence, but I can't say I agree with second. It took more people to run a studio - which I think is a good thing! - but things broke down a lot then too. And preventing them from breaking was also a big job - cleaning contacts, degaussing stuff, adjusting tape machines, calibrating this and that...I think we just have a different kind of poison today.

Now, one thing I will say is that a lot of the equipment was much more expensive and therefore solidly built. That applies to the early digital equipment too, for example...what was the number of that big Sony digital 24-track...33something...well, it was just a gorgeous machine; rocking its reels was almost sensual (only without the sexual overtones - I don't know what the right word is!).


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## dpasdernick (Nov 2, 2010)

Folmann @ Mon Nov 01 said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> I think this question comes down to how deeply one works with synths. Omnisphere is an interesting example - it would not sound as gorgeous without analogue synths as source material - so are they really dead? The majority of really gorgeous synths in soundtracks are still made from layering and resampling analogue/hardware synths, so the notion of "dead" is not really accurate IMO. It is kinda like people predicting the book is dead. The book is not dead - its just a media in transformation - like everything else in life.



I agree whole heartedly that Omnisphere would not be what it is if not for the likes of the OB-8, the Prophet 5, Minimoog, etc. The questions is, moving forward, what hardware will future virtual products get their sounds from? If hardware production has slowed to Roland, Korg and Yamaha pushing out revisions of Fantoms, Tritons and Motifs then there won't be much to sample... Yes, there will always be a few Mini's, Jupiter 8's etc around but by then we'll have sampled them to death.

I think the big point of my original post was the magic feeling of walking into a music store and hearing a D-50, or M1 for the first time. Surrounded by other great pieces of gear all vying for my check book. It just depressed me to walk into one of the last music stores still open (Guitar Center) and only see a handful of products that are not paradigm shifts but an evolution of a product line that started many years ago.

With all this said I love my VST's and a rack of OB-8's and P-5's couldn't touch my sonic potential with Omnisphere alone. (however it would look way coller )

Darren


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 2, 2010)

Well, we're confusing several things: real analog vs. digitally emulated analog; sampled analog; and dedicated hardware vs. computers.

Digital synths *are* computers, so to me that argument is unimportant (not that there aren't differences in programming and converters, of course). Today's digital synths are simply taking advantage of the economy of scale and running on general-purpose computers, and that means we all have lots of them rather than one and a tape machine.

***
Maybe that digital recorder was Mitsubishi and not Sony. Damn, what was the number...


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## José Herring (Nov 2, 2010)

I think there needs to be a shift in the mentality of Hardware makers in general. Right now they got caught flat footed by the digital revolution. Funny how they gave up analog systems for dsp based synths in the 80's and 90's only to be over run by software synths in the 2000s.

I use to own the Roland JV880 and the Korg 01/w and my first synth was the M1. I got my first soft synth about 6 years ago. It was this little freebee synth called Synth1. That little synth created by some dude I didn't even know I still don't know, that little synth did almost everything that the JV880, M1 and Korg could do. Maybe a bit fewer sounds but still! Not as fat sounding as those but running it through a preamp cured that.

So I've noticed some traditional synth makers going to digitally controlled analog osc and such. But, I think what really needs to happen is a complete shift in the way hardware synths operate. Though I can't think of how that will happen.

I do remember some video of a guy using raw electricity as a synth. It sounded killer, but don't know how you could package that.

Found the Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiUlqecQKUo


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 2, 2010)

I went to an LA Phil concert last week of a Messaien piece that used the Ondes Martenot, a very early tube synth - much like the Theremin, only it uses a keyboard.

It's cool as hell.


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## José Herring (Nov 2, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Nov 02 said:


> I went to an LA Phil concert last week of a Messaien piece that used the Ondes Martenot, a very early tube synth - much like the Theremin, only it uses a keyboard.
> 
> It's cool as hell.



Cool. Yes I'm very familiar with that piece. Turangalila-Symphony, is it? I've played it before. Great piece.

The early synth designs were by far the coolest sounding imo. Limited and in some cases way to big. But there was an early synth that was made out of ATT switch boards that is by far the best sounding synth to date. I'd love to find a practical way to bring that down into the digital domain.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 2, 2010)

I can't overstate the complete joy of *playing* analog synths! It's one thing to have a plug-in that kind-of sounds like an analog, and something completely different when you have all those classic knobs and faders, keys that go clack-clack, cables here and there, the thing's getting hotter, there's a deeeep rumble, but then you pop open the filter by turning the cutoff, and your ears start to wiggle, the hair on your neck goes up, and you remember why you LOVE synths.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 2, 2010)

Yup Jose, that was the piece. Some of it is as good as anything I've ever heard, and some of it is boring and repetitive (in my opinion of course).

But on balance it was great.


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## chimuelo (Nov 3, 2010)

The Martenot sounds are awesome.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 3, 2010)

Is that samples or an emulation, chimuelo?


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## chimuelo (Nov 3, 2010)

PhysMod w/ samples.
Its like 11 years old too.
It also has the Glass sound variations mixed with waveforms.

Here's a cool video, but I am quite sure the Concert sounded marvellous.
A natural hall with quiet respectful listeners would have been a real treat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy9UBjrUjwo

I really love these old sounds.
Nick don't know if you remember Mark Frink from Mix magazine, but he and his wife are Martenot and Theramin geeks. At NAMM my bro was pitching his new IEM's ( 1995 ) while we were eating Sushi and Frink starting getting deep into the history and blah, blah of the instrumetns.
You just never know the secrets of others until you eat Sushi at NAMM..... o-[][]-o


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## chimuelo (Nov 3, 2010)

Scope users have been routing hardware Oberheim synths and Lexicon effects into Logic Platinum ( PC ) and Cubase VST via Scope XTC/VSTim since 1998.
Back then software was so exciting as we got rid of our FDD Samplers, QX1 and MC500-MkII sequencers and even those overpriced rackmounted Crest mixers.

I always stayed with Scope because nobody else had a kick butt Modular DSP synth where I could emulate all of the synths I needed. Having a picture of a Moog or Obverheim was just too expensive IMHO. 
I actually cant believe that there are people who buy software and pay hundreds of dollars becasue it sayts Neve on it.
I prefer software that does what hardware cannot do. Whats so good about having a picture of a console like the SSL 4000G when it sounds nothing like it...? And to still emulate old stuff that lacks modern concepts and routing is so old...?

Hardware will never die, and software should always look beyond emulation.
At least thats what I prefer.

Check out my IEM Controller below.
It was designed for me to use with my 6 way JHAudio IEM's. Its GUI demonstrates that, but notice the custom EQ per IEM..?
We all had audiographs done to find our weak spots and then use the curves to correct the deficiencies each performers ears have.
I have a 4k notch, so I cut instead of boost, and the 6 way stereo drivers can be treated per driver per ear........
Any hardware like that on the market...?.........Nope.
My sickness even now includes an idea by the late John Lennon himself while tripping on windowpayne.
He loved the Leslie so much he wanted to have one mounted on tracks to be spun around the large room they recorded in.
George Martin told him he was nuts, I beg to differ.
The Spinner below works like this.
It can take the 2 sends from a real rotary cabinet, or an emulation.
Split the crossover at whatever point you want, then move it backwards, forward and side to side in a mix..........Thank you John Lennon.
I never saw a Leslie do that before, but at least now I can envision it becasue it sounds exactly as described.
I only lack the halucinogenics he had access to.

Hardware will never die, and software should continue to do what hardware can never do.
This emulation concept is so boring, plus I like it when I can tell the developer I want chrome rack mounted gear........... o-[][]-o


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