# How many of you are full time composers?



## DonovanSullivan (Oct 26, 2015)

From what I've heard here and elsewhere, composing music for film, games etc seems like a very overcrowded and competitive field to be in, and it seems that completely investing yourself in it right now is not the wisest decision to make (unless you are willing to make sacrifices..). If you do make music full time, how did you get to that point? Did you get a degree in composition or some sort of music study, or did you just fall into it some other way? Is it gratifying or do you just end up having to push out music to keep up with deadlines (or both..)? How's the financial aspect?

And if you don't, what kinds of other jobs do you work? Did you originally have it as a goal but got another job because it didn't work out the way you intended, or is it simply a hobby?

I'm 18 and considering different career options. I'm not looking for personal advice in this thread, because I'm fairly certain I don't want to pursue a career in music. Don't get me wrong - I still have big, big goals in music and I'm going to work hard on it to improve every day (a serious hobby sort of thing) but it just doesn't seem like a career investment that will give me all that I want. I just want to hear your stories.

Follow your dreams/passion is a phrase I hear a lot. But I think many get confused about it and think that if they don't commit themselves to a dream they've always had, they're doing something wrong. I don't think it's a failure to not "follow a dream". There is no career path in life that you should have taken, no one that you should not have - it doesn't work like that. It's going to be up to you every time no matter what you choose to do to make your life happy and fulfilling.


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## Vlzmusic (Oct 26, 2015)

The "push out music" part is obligatory, no matter who you are, Bach, or Tchaikovsky. 

Though in my eyes, most of the pros (including performing artists) did not carefully choose music careers, but were driven to it by such circumstances as immense talent in music versus lack of other talents, either weak interest in other sciences during the educational period. Some were influenced by family, of course, and some had no other chance to break out of poverty background, other than their musical talent.

It resembles a river flow - if you feel you can escape it, you probably should!!


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## Pasticcio (Oct 26, 2015)

DonovanSullivan said:


> From what I've heard here and elsewhere, composing music for film, games etc seems like a very overcrowded and competitive field to be in, and it seems that completely investing yourself in it right now is not the wisest decision to make (unless you are willing to make sacrifices..).



I don't think this only applies to music, or the time. A career in art has probably never been, and never will be a "wise" move.

If you can consider having a day job that's great! You are in a beautiful position where you can have the security and time scheduling but still be able to make awesome music daily.

In my mind "Follow your dreams" doesn't necessarily mean to strive to work full-time in your chosen field of interest but to decide what is most important to you in your life and make damn sure you invest in it. If spending time with your family, going on vacations, afford fancy dinners etc is what feels most important to you then make sure to fulfill that.
But there are people who want to accomplish things but never dare to try because they are afraid of failure, they are lazy or any other obstacle.

If the thought of having a day job and not making music all day makes you want to shoot yourself and is a one-way ticket to depression maybe a career in music is the healthiest move. But it'll probably take time so you'll have to find a way to deal with it anyway

If working full-time as a composer is your dream, but you don't mind having a day job I think just focusing on honing your skills and choosing the projects you want to work on is absolutely a good way to go. Then maybe one day you have enough projects coming in so that you can make a choice whether you want to go part-time, full-time or w/e fits you.

With all that said, I'm not a fulltime composer. Just sharing my thoughts.


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## Rctec (Oct 26, 2015)

I never studied music, but I'm basically unemployable in any other field. I've never had a real job. And most days I question if I am a "Real Composer"...


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## vicontrolu (Oct 26, 2015)

I was lucky to get in early and could develop the craft while working in the industry. But i am completely aware that i´ve been very very lucky.

I guess if i had to give an advise it would be to write music everyday. You get better by just doing it over and over. I dont think formal education is a requirement although it surely helps. To me, i think there´s nothing better than a kickass demo or portfolio. Well..actually contacts are more important but lets assume we are playing fair here.

So, write music until it is so good that excels above the rest of excellent composers and, during these years, find some other thing that puts a decent plate on the table.


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## Killiard (Oct 26, 2015)

I had dreams of composing for film when I was at university but I wasn't brave enough at the time to do it (wasn't sure I'd make enough money to eat). I ended up doing a masters in sound design instead and have spent the last decade editing audio in one way or another. It's only in the last 2 years that I've been composing music and getting paid for it. Our regular composer was busy so I shot up my hand and said "ME ME ME!"

I guess what I'm trying to say is it's always useful to have another skill to fall back on. In my case it's in the same industry, so when I'm not a composer I'm an audio editor/sound designer and vice versa.
I have a friend who quit his day job to try and be a photographer and he lasted about a year and a half - it's an oversaturated market and he just jumped straight in. I think for a lot of people who have "normal" jobs and aspire to be full time in the arts, the trick is to keep the day job and try and accumulate work in your spare time. If that work increases you maybe try and go part time at the "normal" job and when things start getting busy enough that you think you could make a living from it you jack in the "normal" job.

So you could put all your energy into being a composer right now, do a music degree /composition whatever and see what happens. Or you could do a related job / degree in sound and do your composing on the side - audio editing / sound design / engineering etc. Or you could get a "proper" job (my wife has one of those) and do composing evening and weekends.

Jordan

*OR of course you could ignore me, since I've just read your post again and you say you don't actually won't to pursue a career in music


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Oct 26, 2015)

I've been so lucky that one of my best friends started a small game company where I got to try my hand at game music. Even though I had almost 20 years of composing experience when I started doing that, I only really got a lot better once I did it every day. So I really agree with the people saying that you should make music every day. The more the better.
Formal music education? It sure is usable to have some kind of theoretical framework, but spending years of your time on that will still not prepare you for the kinds of musical problems you'll have to solve in the film / game industry. Stuff like that you can always get later when you have the work experience.


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## tokatila (Oct 26, 2015)

Well, I had a "normal" day job and somehow persuaded my wife that I should quit it and start to compose music. Why music? Since I tend to get bored very easily when I master something; I wanted something that could keep me interested rest of my life. Also music has been always been the most powerful emotional force that resonates with me.

And maybe because she knows that I'm very bad at doing half-assed anything I'm interested in, it gave her some reassurance to give me her permission. Or like John Powell said in some interview his best asset was a supportive girlfriend, since he didn't make any money in 8 years.

I don't believe in dabbling between day job and composing. How much efficient study time will I put in if I compose one-two hour every evening after my kids have gone to the bed and already exhausted and stressed from and the next desk job day? Not a lot; and there's also a big problem when one doesn't put enough work to something; improvement is so slow that it won't be very noticeable; thus demotivating oneself further.

I'm also not a believer that just composing makes one a better composer. I have typed different kinds of keyboards for over 20 years and haven't got any faster in about 19 years. Why? Because I'm not challenging myself to type faster and my typing method is surely very inefficient. This applies to many things in my life; like playing chess or bench pressing. I'm a firm believer to the (smart) perspiration instead of inspiration; I don't think that anybody can be next Beethoven etc.; but with enough systematic practice one can get very good, and a hell of a lot better than many. Ok. A lot of systematic practice.

I have now studied two months full-time since our kids went to the kindergarten; and I have a quite systematic way of handling learning. I'm always surprised when people start to practice something and are complete impervious how to get better and how we learn things according to the science. First books I read were not harmony books; they were books on efficient practice. I study approximately 8 hours during the day; and put and hour or two in the evening. Also few hours in the weekends too; as much as my family will let me.  Of course some times "life gets in the way", but still this enables me to put around 2000-3000 hours learning time in a year. So in three-four years I have studied around 10 000 hours; hopefully efficiently too. I would be surprised if I'm unable to produce listenable stuff after so many hours of training. Then I can happily agree that I'm a talentless hack who should go back to the cubicle or my practicing methods really sucked.

Also; I made clear that I'm not even pursuing any jobs for a while; since they will be a distraction of getting better; many people seem to reach a plateau after they start taking jobs simply because they don't have time to study/energy to get better.

And if I fail; then I do. But it will not be because I didn't put my best effort. I'm also very glad and fortunate that I'm having a supportive family; without it it would be much much harder.


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## DHousden (Oct 26, 2015)

Killiard said:


> I had dreams of composing for film when I was at university but I wasn't brave enough at the time to do it (wasn't sure I'd make enough money to eat). I ended up doing a masters in sound design instead and have spent the last decade editing audio in one way or another. It's only in the last 2 years that I've been composing music and getting paid for it. Our regular composer was busy so I shot up my hand and said "ME ME ME!"
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is it's always useful to have another skill to fall back on. In my case it's in the same industry, so when I'm not a composer I'm an audio editor/sound designer and vice versa.
> I have a friend who quit his day job to try and be a photographer and he lasted about a year and a half - it's an oversaturated market and he just jumped straight in. I think for a lot of people who have "normal" jobs and aspire to be full time in the arts, the trick is to keep the day job and try and accumulate work in your spare time. If that work increases you maybe try and go part time at the "normal" job and when things start getting busy enough that you think you could make a living from it you jack in the "normal" job.
> ...


This.


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## Anders Wall (Oct 26, 2015)

DonovanSullivan said:


> Follow your dreams/passion is a phrase I hear a lot. But I think many get confused about it and think that if they don't commit themselves to a dream they've always had, they're doing something wrong. I don't think it's a failure to not "follow a dream". There is no career path in life that you should have taken, no one that you should not have - it doesn't work like that. It's going to be up to you every time no matter what you choose to do to make your life happy and fulfilling.


I believe a fellow composer said "Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans".
Sometimes I understand what he was talking about, sometimes I just close my eyes and jump...
Having been in the industry for roughly 20 years and a full-time composer for seven I live my dream and love every second of it. This "morning" I woke up at 00:05 just to be able to nail that deadline, tomorrow will be the same.
"The only time I have problems is when I sleep."
:-O
Best,
Anders


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## Studio E (Oct 26, 2015)

Rctec said:


> I never studied music, but I'm basically unemployable in any other field. I've never had a real job. And most days I question if I am a "Real Composer"...



....and this is why we love you.


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## Rctec (Oct 26, 2015)

http://markmanson.net/passion


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2015)

I have never been a "full time composer" as over the years I also always got hired to be a songwriter, singer, pianist, musical director, piano teacher, and Logic Pro consultant and in recent years as an author of Logic Pro books, columnist, and EW's Online Coordinator. But when people ask me, "what do you do?" I always respond that I am a composer.


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## kclements (Oct 26, 2015)

Rctec said:


> http://markmanson.net/passion



_Brilliant!!_ Definitely THIS!


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Oct 26, 2015)

That was a fun read Hans. Love the bluntness of his message. We live in a time of self-help, introspection, analysis and constant expectations of change. It's refreshing when someone tells us to stop being paralyzed, focusing so much on what's the right thing to do that we end up doing nothing at all.


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## reddognoyz (Oct 26, 2015)

I am a f/t composer. Currently hating my job : ) I didn't used to hate it, I used to love it, I still love it about 5% of the time. I just need a change of scenery, I've been doing the same old same old(cartoons cartoons cartoons) Since about 1999 and I am OVER it. I am one of the lucky ones, I get it. The money is good. It's just that I didn't ever feel like I was working. Now I feel like I am screwing caps on bottles on a conveyor belt. I guess the plus is, I haven't ever had a cue rejected for being to weird or over the top, so I do what I can to expand my chops and have fun while I'm scoring. But if that dragon falls of the table one more goddamn time....  

I'm going to hang in and see what happens next.

I was chatting with a friend of mine, the music director for the Blue Man Group. We realized neither of us knows anyone we went to school with,(both us Berklee), who are still in the business. There really isn't that much of a business to be in these days.

Re: the article Rtec posted. 

Yes I am doing what I should be doing. My morning went like this. Coffee and bother the kids while I'm noodling on the piano checking out unlikely modulations. Wife and kids left, I procrastinate from going to the studio and pick up my current passion, my 1927 hilo lap steel and work on "one more kiss" a retro jazz piece from Vangelis (blade runner check it, better on the first "fake" soundtrack album w bill waltrous playing the bone solo) Grabbing sweatshirt, but first procrastinate a little more maybe play a little regular guitar? This is my tendency and my passion. 

Okay going to start a new episode, but first procrastinate and maybe check out the VI forum??........


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2015)

reddognoyz said:


> I am a f/t composer. Currently hating my job : ) I didn't used to hate it, I used to love it, I still love it about 5% of the time. I just need a change of scenery, I've been doing the same old same old(cartoons cartoons cartoons) Since about 1999 and I am OVER it. I am one of the lucky ones, I get it. The money is good. It's just that I didn't ever feel like I was working. Now I feel like I am screwing caps on bottles on a conveyor belt. I guess the plus is, I haven't ever had a cue rejected for being to weird or over the top, so I do what I can to expand my chops and have fun while I'm scoring. But if that dragon falls of the table one more goddamn time....
> 
> I'm going to hang in and see what happens next.
> 
> ...


Feel free to farm any you don't want to do to me, Stu.


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 26, 2015)

Yeah currently I'm a student attending university for a degree in computer science. I saw music as something I love and am always passionate for, but I also recognize my tendency to get tired of things if I commit completely. Personally, I love computers and math and logic, so CS is good for me, but keeping that music "career" going is also important so I don't get too focused on one thing, which I usually feel is boring. Often if I feel like I've gone on an intense binge of composition that has negatively affected my creativity and workflow, I'll take some time to work on my fantasy novel or play a game or something. A good balance of everything is my philosophy


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2015)

My conductor in college said, "My boy, music is selfish art. It requires full dedication."

I think he was wise.


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## Daryl (Oct 26, 2015)

I think the problem with full time composing is that it's very insular and there is no real payoff, in terms of artistic satisfaction, for many people. What I mean by this is that as a composer one of the most thrilling things that can happen is to experience other people playing your music. Even for a film composer this happens when you turn up to the sessions and really hear it for the first time.

However, these days the majority of people will never get to experience that, and even if it's not something that you're used to, I think it can make projects feel flat.

So one solution would be to experience as much live music as you can, so that you don't lose that sense of excitement that music delivers.

Another would be to do as Jay does (alright, just this time, and only this time) and mix and match what you do. Even the most boring admin tasks can help break up the composing, so that you look forward to getting back to it. Today my task is Meta tagging for genre, usage and keywords. It's so exciting...!

D


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## Valérie_D (Oct 26, 2015)

Rctec said:


> ..And most days I question if I am a "Real Composer"...


Hans, come on, give me a break, just have a listen to that Interstellar score you recently did


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## tack (Oct 26, 2015)

Valérie_D said:


> Hans, come on, give me a break, just have a listen to that Interstellar score you recently did


I only ever had one listen to that score. After my ear drums exploded in the theater, I've not listened to much since.


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## Peter Costa (Oct 26, 2015)

I had been doing music full time for a few years after I graduated high school. I left music for a couple of years because on paper it seemed like there were only a few career options in doing music as a professional. In order to pursue "the most secure" path for my life I went and got a degree in Physics and worked in a lab doing an exciting "normal" job. I was decent and had success at what I did as well. Everyday I thought about being a musician though and I was dissatisfied and depressed most of the time. Money/security won't always give you happiness. I'm poor now but I get by wearing multiple hats, and I'm able to compose music about 40hrs/week. I love what I do and even though there is still stress and worry I know that when I go to work I enjoy the hell out of it. My family is grateful too because I come home happy to see them and not in a state of 'Wo is me'. I liked the river analogy from a previous poster. If you feel like you can escape the river you'll probably be satisfied working a full-time job and doing music as a part-time endeavor, and there is nothing to be ashamed about that either! Good luck!


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## germancomponist (Oct 26, 2015)

Rctec said:


> http://markmanson.net/passion


What a great read!


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## jneebz (Oct 26, 2015)

Rctec said:


> http://markmanson.net/passion


_"If you’re passionate about something, it will already feel like such an ingrained part of your life that you will have to be reminded by people that it’s not normal, that other people aren’t like that."_

Fantastic! Thanks for the link, Mr. Zimmer.

This realization, coupled with some credible affirmation _(i.e. someone besides my wife and mom liking my music ) _was a catalyst for my decision to pursue music seriously. My worst day writing and building relationships in the composer community is 1000x better than the best day at my old "American dream" job. God-willing, never going back to that.

Back to the OP, you will generally find things in life that:
1. Fill you up
2. Drain you

Just do your best to make sure #1 > #2 as often as possible. You get one lap at life, make the most of it!

Good luck to you,
-Jamie


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## Peter Costa (Oct 26, 2015)

the article Hans posted reminds me of a belligerent version of 'The Alchemist'. If you're 18 looking at what you want to do with your life I'd say a very recommended read. Plus at 18 you have plenty of time to screw up, take risks, etc... It all comes down to what are you doing, and not what you say you're willing to do.


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## kdm (Oct 26, 2015)

I make the bulk of my living composing, but augment with a few related jobs here and there (orchestration, sound design). Sometimes I wonder why I stick with it when trying to support a family. It isn't for the money (probably should have quit long ago if I had any socially-acceptable financial sense).

But, for better or worse, I do stick with it because I love it more than anything else, and always have. And at this point in life, there isn't anything else anyone would hire me to do, lol. Sometimes the best thing to do isn't what appears most logical on the surface, but there has to be some logic behind it.



Rctec said:


> I never studied music, but I'm basically unemployable in any other field. I've never had a real job. And most days I question if I am a "Real Composer"...



Hans, I think you've more than earned the right to define what a real composer is. Fwiw, I had a real job once - highly overrated.


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## tomaslobosk (Oct 26, 2015)

Rctec said:


> I never studied music, but I'm basically unemployable in any other field. I've never had a real job. And most days I question if I am a "Real Composer"...


I know exactly what you mean, I've been giving some thought to this lately... I did struggle with myself for a long time before adding the "composer" line to my descriptions, it's a little arrogant IMHO, but I do compose music, so that makes me a music composer.
Humility is what makes you the best, Hans.


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## windshore (Oct 26, 2015)

It strikes me funny that several say they only did music because they couldn't do something else. I know many amazing musicians who have degrees in other fields, or amazing expertise in a trade. 

I had a scholarship to study engineering (mechanical) and physics. The irony is that as a busy composer, you end up doing very much the same thing. It's like bridge building. I am tasked with building a bridge. It has to be so long, bear so much weight, anchor in sand and clay on one side, granite on the other. It has to be done for a specific price so my materials are limited.... Within these narrow parameters I can be creative.

Same for writing for TV and Commercials. It's very functional writing. You have chances to be creative within it, but if you have an urge to express your personal angst, you might be better off to keep music as a hobby.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm not a full time composer yet, heck, I don't even consider myself a composer at all, but I have been a professional musician, working in various orchestras as both violinist and violist for 10 years. In the end I felt creatively un-satisfied only playing other people's music, and decided to do whatever it's going to take to make the music that's always been in my head a reality - and do nothing else, all day long. It's not a dream, it's the only thing I want to do, just as playing violin in a top pro orchestra was the only thing I wanted to do 15 years ago when I was studying. In the meantime life intervened and I ended up in Vietnam because of a girl. It's impossible to be a musician here, so last year I was teaching at an international school in Hanoi. I have never hated a job more in my life, was always exhausted and depressed and got very little writing and studying done. Now I'm back on track, recording strings for people around the world., in my tiny little self-made studio in Hanoi. It's my day job, but I like doing it, it keeps my musicianship honed and sharp, and it pays the bills while I try to become a full time composer. So full time music pro, yes, full time composer? Not yet...


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## Christof (Oct 26, 2015)

I was a full time cello performer who did some compositions as hobby.
Now I am a full time composer who does cello as hobby (well, not really , I still practice to be in good shape).


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## Daryl (Oct 26, 2015)

Christof said:


> ....I still practice to be in good shape.


Yeah, that won't last. I've been saying that I should start to practice again for over 25 years, and it hasn't happened yet. 

D


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## TheUnfinished (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm full-time, but not exclusively as a composer. If I relied on the money I make from music, you'd probably see me hanging around your bins!

I'm lucky that I have the income from sound design and synth programming (something I'm grateful for every day) as, when music projects do come along, I can be a little choosier and go for things that resonate with me. I can, right at this moment, seriously contemplate working on the lofty and foppish pursuit of an album next year... rather than doing something useful or helpful! It's a luxury that I imagine is rare unless you're right near the top of the game or, like me, rely more on other sources of income.

Mind you, I am only here doing this now because I took a leap of faith five years ago (at the age of 35), quit a well paid job at Oxford University, moved down to London to live with my girlfriend (now wife and mother of my child) and just went for it. It has, so far, paid off. And I'm aware of how much that is down to luck. But you have to put yourself in the position of being able to take advantage of luck, that's key.

So... at the very least, it's never too late to grab the bull by the horns. But, you know, be nice to the bull, it's always better to be nice.


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## Saxer (Oct 26, 2015)

I'm a full time musician but not full time composer. I play live in some different (more or less) commercial bands, produce playbacks for vocalists, arrange for live or studio band or orchestra projects, produce additional string and brass arrangements on top of pop songs, write film music and music for TV spots. Beside of that I write my own jazzy music. I'm very happy to make music all the time but I'm also happy not to do the same thing every day. And nobody controls me as long as I get my stuff ready - which is the greatest freedom for me. So much better than any day job!


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2015)

Great, so nowadays people should seek wisdom and inspiration instead of from mentors and philosophers from unrealistic comic book and action movies? 


EastWest Lurker said:


> I have never been a "full time composer" as over the years I also always got hired to be a songwriter, singer, pianist, musical director, piano teacher, and Logic Pro consultant and in recent years as an author of Logic Pro books, columnist, and EW's Online Coordinator. But when people ask me, "what do you do?" I always respond that I am a composer.




BTW, I would be quite happy to be so busy as a composer that I pretty much stopped all the other ways I make money with music.


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## D.Salzenberg (Oct 26, 2015)

I have a day job in a design studio doing Web design, another very overcrowded profession with crazy deadlines and very demanding clients who often think they know best, want the moon on a stick, want it yesterday, then want to string out the payment for months and argue about the invoice. I'm sure that sounds pretty familiar to people whose day job is music? 
It seems any kind of creative career is very tough, and while there are huge rewards for those who make it to the top, there are many more who will struggle. Having said all that, the grass is always greener, and I am still doing Web design and making a living sat in a nice plush studio, so it's not all negative. I think a problem for me with trying to do music full time is that I'm scared that it would take the pleasure away when you have to do it to pay the bills, rather than for the enjoyment of it?


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 26, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> Great, so nowadays people should seek wisdom and inspiration instead of from mentors and philosophers from unrealistic comic book and action movies?


You are right sir! Lesson learned! What another dumb post of mine! I couldn't stand how stupid & dismissive of all you great people what I had just written was, I had to delete it, so sorry if you replied to that gone post !


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 26, 2015)

Here's some controversial advice I happen to really believe in...


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2015)

AlexandreSafi said:


> You are right sir! Lesson learned! What another dumb post of mine! I couldn't stand how stupid & dismissive of all you great people what I had just written was, I had to delete it, so sorry if you replied to that gone post !



C'mon, it was a joke Alexandre.


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## reddognoyz (Oct 26, 2015)

Re Dave Grohl advice. 

Yea, plus one with that if you want to be a recording or performing artist. That feedback is so important. You play live, and that lovingly tailored intricate intro you guys worked so hard on in the basement suddenly seems way too long when people lose interest and start walking away from the stage. You find out what people respond to and what they don't respond to. 
If all you want to do is give yourself music therapy, by writing exactly what you want to, then by all means do that. If you want to build an audience, build a following you find out what you need to give, so that get an interested audience to hear your music and message. People want a lot.

Back in the day the thinking was that the magic bullet was to get "signed". Those days have passed but that sort of thinking is still out there, "if only we had a manager or a record label" etc. DG is correct about all of that stuff, those record companies managers agents will all come sniffing around when you don't need them anymore. When they need you to turn a buck. Those guys are all looking for someone who has already done the heavy lifting, has already shown the ability to attract an audience, a really robust social media campaign is a great idea, won't help much if you're not absolutely great though. 100% right on that point Mr G.


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 26, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> C'mon, it was a joke Alexandre.


Thank you for that Jay, it's more than ok!  I usually like to take that old adage "..there is a grain of truth in every joke..” seriously! Oopsy Daisy on this one... 
-Best, sir-


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## EastWest Lurker (Oct 26, 2015)

AlexandreSafi said:


> Thank you for that Jay, it's more than ok!  I usually like to take that old adage "..there is a grain of truth in every joke..” seriously! Oopsy Daisy on this one...
> -Best, sir-



Well after all, I am well known as being an "elitist. "


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## benatural (Oct 26, 2015)

I write music as part of my day job mostly because I can't imagine doing anything else with my life. If you want this, work hard, buy the gear, make music, and stick with it.


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## AlexRuger (Oct 27, 2015)

Not quite a full-time composer strictly speaking, as I make at least half of my income doing "satellite jobs" to composing, such as orchestrating, music editing, tech work for composers, recording, MIDI programming, all that stuff, in addition to my composing. I guess that's par for the course for someone my age, but I'm digging that for now and am finding that in addition to being an ok composer, I'm also a pretty good "composer's ally"--I can orchestrate if they have a synth-heavy background, I can do synth/sound design, production, mockups etc if they're a more traditional composer, I can cop someone's sound well and can write additional music if need be, I can conduct if they'd rather booth-read/listen, on and on...and there's good money and joy to be found in that, since my most natural skill set lies in music to picture and being a dramatist anyway. The specific musical skill being exercised is sort of irrelevant. I like it all. It's sort of like producing a band's record at times, which is cool. At the end of the day, though, I keep it simple and say that I'm a full-time composer. Close enough.


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## maro (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm not a full-time composer. I'm one of those who have a daily job. Good think is my job is compatible with composing. In the morning I listen to and pick music of other composers, so rest of the day I'm composer who want to be picked from other editors and supervisors. 
I thing it is easiest way because me and my family needs food and clothes and other things for living, but on a second thought, it's not quite good for my professional side because I don't give the best I can. A huge amount of energy spent on a job I just do for the money. 
So I'd like to say I'm a full-time composer, but it requires a little bit time and courage.
Thanks to all for a great topic.


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## sleepingtiger (Oct 27, 2015)

I love this thread! I'm full time in music, part time as a composer. My bread and butter is producing, engineering and mastering creative recording projects by mostly local and regional artists. A few years ago I started writing for cable shows through a production company and got involved with several music libraries. I've been in music all my life and my current niche just sort of created itself out of years of evolving circumstances. As others have mentioned, I love having a variety of things to do. It keeps it interesting and though I prefer some things to others I generally wake up every day looking forward to whatever is in front of me. I'm very grateful!


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## rgames (Oct 27, 2015)

I always say this: I think anyone thinking rationally about making a living as an artist should *not* try to make a living as an artist. It's not a rational decision. You do it because you must. It's like deciding whether or not you want to breathe air. It's not a choice.

Also, I don't think Bach ever made a living from his music. Philip Glass was driving a cab until age 40 or something like that. Charles Ives sold insurance. So I disagree with the notion that you have to completely devote yourself to composing. History is full of composers whom I consider "great" who worked day jobs while writing masterpieces. There are others who were full-time composers. You can do it either way.

But don't sweat it at 18. Have fun and keep an open mind. It'll work itself out. BUT DON'T GO INTO DEBT!

rgames


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## Ryan (Oct 27, 2015)

Teacher by day. Composer by night. Father and husband 24/7..


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## ptsmith (Oct 27, 2015)

Rctec said:


> I never studied music, but I'm basically unemployable in any other field. I've never had a real job. And most days I question if I am a "Real Composer"...





Studio E said:


> ....and this is why we love you.



I've never been one to get excited by the presence of famous people, but damn Hans, you're such an incredibly humble guy, considering all of your accomplishments, it's hard not to be an admirer.


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## mwarsell (Oct 28, 2015)

Like Ryan, teacher by day, composer by night (or early morning).


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## dannymc (Oct 28, 2015)

> Teacher by day. Composer by night. Father and husband 24/7..



are you a music teacher Ryan or something completely unrelated? 

me, i'm a Telco Systems Engineer by day, beginner composer by night


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## IFM (Oct 28, 2015)

I have a bit of a problem called Porsche...and that requires a day job but it still is in the music industry. The rest of my life is composing, cars, wife, and cats. 
I also know someone in LA who is a pretty well sought after drummer that also has a business doing installs and building studios. He's a customer of mine as well as a friend but here's someone of high stature that's on several films soundtracks, rock bands, etc. that still does what he can to make money. The installs help support his real love and he doesn't hate any of it.
Chris


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 29, 2015)

My first album's international sales made it so my rent was paid up for five straight years...and very little else. So, I don't think that makes me full time. But it does make me professional.


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## jacobthestupendous (Oct 29, 2015)

I decided in college that I wanted to be a rockstar electric guitarist, so I majored in business/accounting because 1) business sense seems valuable in a world where labels take bigtime advantage of artists, 2) someone in the band should have a decent day job. Fastforward ten years or so, I'm a corporate tax accountant with a wife and two young children who rely on my income. I kind of hate my job, but I work for decent people, and the money is close to enough for my family. This year for the first time in my professional life, I worked for a company that paid a bonus that I could afford to invest in a decent beginner DAW setup and some virtual instruments. Man has my outlook changed! Now I can steal some time after the kids and wife are in bed and make music that was truly impossible before! Someday, perhaps, luck will provide an avenue for me to enjoy some income from my passionate hobby; in the meantime, I am enjoying preparing for the occasion. My motto as a tax accountant has long been _You can do anything for a little while_, but the prospect of doing nothing but accounting forever was much more soul-crushing before I found this creative outlet. The idea of doing this full time makes me happy. Maybe someday.


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 29, 2015)

jacobthestupendous said:


> I decided in college that I wanted to be a rockstar electric guitarist, so I majored in business/accounting because 1) business sense seems valuable in a world where labels take bigtime advantage of artists, 2) someone in the band should have a decent day job. Fastforward ten years or so, I'm a corporate tax accountant with a wife and two young children who rely on my income. I kind of hate my job, but I work for decent people, and the money is close to enough for my family. This year for the first time in my professional life, I worked for a company that paid a bonus that I could afford to invest in a decent beginner DAW setup and some virtual instruments. Man has my outlook changed! Now I can steal some time after the kids and wife are in bed and make music that was truly impossible before! Someday, perhaps, luck will provide an avenue for me to enjoy some income from my passionate hobby; in the meantime, I am enjoying preparing for the occasion. My motto as a tax accountant has long been _You can do anything for a little while_, but the prospect of doing nothing but accounting forever was much more soul-crushing before I found this creative outlet. The idea of doing this full time makes me happy. Maybe someday.



This is awesome. +1,000,000


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## Ryan (Oct 29, 2015)

dannymc said:


> are you a music teacher Ryan or something completely unrelated?
> 
> me, i'm a Telco Systems Engineer by day, beginner composer by night


Hi
No, I'm not a music teacher. In fact, I studied modern/Contemporary dance at the Oslo National Academy of the Arts. Been a professional dancer touring around with a company. Then I studied even more (Music and movements - Research)..
After a while I decided to go full in with my music career. I had until then been making/composing music since I was 11-years (Amiga, Impulse Tracker etc). I was so lucky to be granted a place at filmmusic-composition in Lillehammer. I had Richard Bellis, and other great Norwegian composers as mentors/teachers.
To the point of all this: I teach music-students arts, ergonomics and dance. So it's definitely related in a way. It gives me enough income to keep the "bills" away 

Best
Ryan


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## dannymc (Oct 29, 2015)

> Re Dave Grohl advice.
> 
> Yea, plus one with that if you want to be a recording or performing artist. That feedback is so important. You play live, and that lovingly tailored intricate intro you guys worked so hard on in the basement suddenly seems way too long when people lose interest and start walking away from the stage. You find out what people respond to and what they don't respond to.
> If all you want to do is give yourself music therapy, by writing exactly what you want to, then by all means do that. If you want to build an audience, build a following you find out what you need to give, so that get an interested audience to hear your music and message. People want a lot.
> ...



i think this raises an interesting point and that is the distinction between writer composer and performing composer. they are two different worlds. i can only go from my experience in the club music world but i can say that the few successful dj/producers who went on to make a career for themselves, the most important thing was to find that song or music to get you noticed. one of those guys use to say to me Danny all you need is that one song that just hits. its true, the amount of artists out there in many styles who have nearly built whole careers on the strength of one masterpiece alone or not even a masterpiece but just a track that strikes a chord with many people around the world.

but the strange thing is that the one hit wonder if you like to call it only gets you in the door but at least gets your name out there. to actually make a career its unlikely to come from record sales alone especially in todays world of spotify and itunes. so back to my original point about the performing artist, this is what these successful dj/producers had to transform too. from bedroom composers to guys who are able to stand up and perform in front of thousands of people singing back their songs. this is where these guys were able to make the money and in turn their careers. traveling the world performing their music to the audience that was willing to pay 50dollars a head or more to see them. even the biggest bands in the world will say you wouldn't make enough money on album sales alone these days and instead its all about the touring. some of the biggest names in EDM today such as Calvin Harris, Tiesto, Armin are multi multi millionaires not through album and single sales but through sometimes multiple club night and festival performances per week around the world.

so it seems to me that when it comes to the world of tv/film/games composer unfortunately its going to be infinitely harder because we are not out there on x-factor shoving it down peoples throats, we are in the background in our bedrooms & studios trying to make the best music we can for something we love & believe in passionately enough not to sell out to making commercial pop shit instead.

Danny


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## Jetzer (Oct 29, 2015)

I'm 24.

Spend the last two years writing music. Staying at my parents place, writing music, trying to get projects, writing for libraries etc... 

I was bored out of my mind. I could have taken a shitload more action to make more money and maybe even make a living, but never did. Why? I think because deep down I knew this wasn't really what I wanted. Realised that if I want to be happy, I need to work in an creative enviremont with other passionate people. Now it was just me in my bedroom in a little uninspiring town. Didn't like the loneliness. 

This summer decided to change it all. Now I work 40 hours a week in marketing in a very cool startup with young, cool & passionate people. I have a long commute, so little time left for music during the week. Love it though. 

Within the next few months I will move to the city where I work, were I will be surrounded by at lot more like-minded people. Musicians, composers, filmmakers, designers, entrepeneurs, students. For now I have to cut back enormously on my music, but thats okay.

No idea to were it will lead me. Music, business, film, marketing, games, startups, design, people...I love it all. I will figure something out. 

My advice: get busy. You will never figure out what you want if you don't try stuff. I know now that for me, writing music and making a living does not necessarily make me happy. I can never do the JW thing and be a total monk. I need something different.


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## mc_deli (Oct 29, 2015)

I'll share for the craic.

I was a rock star electric guitarist but I couldn't afford enough pedals, lattes or recording gear. So I went to work to buy music gear. I have now had a 19 year career in international marketing. It has been moderately successful, I have bought a lot of lattes, pedals and other gear. But from playing 8 hours a day, I was on less than 8 hours a month. Totally defeated the object of the exercise. Five years ago I decided I had had enough and I went to university to do a music degree. I am in the process of changing horses but the income from the day job is hard to resist. I am now on about 1/4 day job, 1/4 music, 1/4 childcare, and 1/4 reading epic car crash threads about articulation switching after bedtime when the house has to be quiet. And a few orchestration lessons on Monday mornings with a brilliant arranger (and lurker here).

Cheers!


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## Andrew Goodwin (Oct 29, 2015)

jacobthestupendous said:


> I decided in college that I wanted to be a rockstar electric guitarist, so I majored in business/accounting because 1) business sense seems valuable in a world where labels take bigtime advantage of artists, 2) someone in the band should have a decent day job. Fastforward ten years or so, I'm a corporate tax accountant with a wife and two young children who rely on my income. I kind of hate my job, but I work for decent people, and the money is close to enough for my family. This year for the first time in my professional life, I worked for a company that paid a bonus that I could afford to invest in a decent beginner DAW setup and some virtual instruments. Man has my outlook changed! Now I can steal some time after the kids and wife are in bed and make music that was truly impossible before! Someday, perhaps, luck will provide an avenue for me to enjoy some income from my passionate hobby; in the meantime, I am enjoying preparing for the occasion. My motto as a tax accountant has long been _You can do anything for a little while_, but the prospect of doing nothing but accounting forever was much more soul-crushing before I found this creative outlet. The idea of doing this full time makes me happy. Maybe someday.



That's pretty much me, guitarist wanted to be in a band full-time, got a degree in accounting thought it would be a good business skill, I now work in an office at a university. Glamorous it is not, but it pays the bills enough for me to use project money to buy gear and sample libraries mwaahaha. My day job isn't terrible, the people are great, but I feel dead mostly there. It was strange reading these posts. I just finished a project and though it was difficult and stressful at times I felt very alive even at 4am (i get up for work at 5:30am). It was an experience that's been making me think a lot. I have 3 kids and a wife so supporting them is number 1. It's tough to juggle taking risks, being available to take advantage of lucky situations etc with a family. Not sure where this will go, but I can say that I will continue to get up early or stay up late to make music after work and family. Great reading about everyones experiences!


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## kunst91 (Oct 29, 2015)

Finishing school now and getting ready to enter the "real world." The goal is to compose full time, but right now I'm really just looking to make a living. Pretty scary stuff!


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## JunoVHS (Oct 29, 2015)

kunst91 said:


> Finishing school now and getting ready to enter the "real world." The goal is to compose full time, but right now I'm really just looking to make a living. Pretty scary stuff!



don't be scared. just accept that you're not going to be doing that overnight, and its pretty normal to go 2-4 years after school before you start getting regular work. Different for everyone of course, but that's what I've seen after graduating from Berklee film scoring in 2012. I got a few sample related gigs out of school, but when that went south I did cable for a little while (bury drop, the hard stuff). Still, I kept at writing music and doing sound design, and more opportunities sprung up. At this point many of the people I graduated with who stuck with are doing awesome things. 

Find a job that lets you get by, anything even loosely associated with music is great. Just keep at it, write music all the time, work with other people on your same level to get your music in games/films/whatever, be fun to work with, never let anyone down, always be the guy people can count on (but don't get pushed around). In time, if you're always improving, you'll get there


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## David Donaldson (Oct 31, 2015)

When people ask me what I do for a living I say "I'm a musician" (unless I'm going through customs. Then I say I'm a recording engineer) Coming from a live performance background it still seems a bit of a wank to say "I'm a composer" though working as screen composer is pretty much what (unbelievably to me) I do. When I started out I didn't care about career or qualifications I just wanted to follow my passion..............which was surfing, so I needed a job that was going to give me the freedom to surf whenever it was good. Music seemed the obvious choice to me......certainly not to my parents.
I joined my brothers experimental improvising band, slowly got more legitimate and eventually made a living from being a full time touring musician....for about 6 or 7 years, until New Zealand had a stock market crash and rules got tightened up around tax deductions for businesses hiring bands for corporate functions, which was quite a big part of my income.
Decided to try and get some sort of qualification to fall back on and trained as a laboratory technician in Histology. For a few years I worked in a room with no external windows with some very toxic chemicals. Some of my job requirements included, observing post mortems, preserving body parts in formaldehyde, I once spent a whole day putting peoples brains in plastic bags.!!! I could only do that for so long before I thought "I'm heading for a mental breakdown"
It felt really scary to quit my job until the moment I did it. Then it felt great
At this point I decided it didn't matter how insecure a future I was heading for I was going to stick with music for my sanity. That whole experience has been quite good to draw on for inspiration and a warning of how shit jobs can get.

I bought a bunch of recording equipment with a friend to carry on making albums and somewhere along the way got asked to score a few short films and theatre shows. This lead onto our first feature, which got a pretty high profile and from there we just kept getting asked to score stuff.........It's been awesome. I feel incredibly lucky and certainly don't take it for granted.
I reckon things have changed a lot over the last few years and I don't feel nearly as optimistic. Music has become pretty devalued.
Last year we decide that as well as scoring we would use our spare time to make virtual instruments for sale, not just for ourselves. So these days I divide my time between composing and recording and editing thousands and thousands of samples.
I really love that moment when you finally get a put all those samples together and finally hear what you have made. It's just as satisfying as making a great cue to me now.
I've left it way too late to change now. For good or bad I've well and truly made my bed.
I never dreamed when I started out that I'd still be doing this at 55.

I think one of the main things I've learnt in over 35 years of doing this is don't sign away your copyright.
OK enough of that. I'm off for a surf.


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## Arbee (Oct 31, 2015)

David Donaldson said:


> Decided to try and get some sort of qualification to fall back on and trained as a laboratory technician in Histology. For a few years I worked in a room with no external windows with some very toxic chemicals. Some of my job requirements included, observing post mortems, preserving body parts in formaldehyde, I once spent a whole day putting peoples brains in plastic bags.!!! I could only do that for so long before I thought "I'm heading for a mental breakdown"
> It felt really scary to quit my job until the moment I did it. Then it felt great
> At this point I decided it didn't matter how insecure a future I was heading for I was going to stick with music for my sanity. That whole experience has been quite good to draw on for inspiration and a warning of how shit jobs can get.
> 
> ...



Oo, that's spooky David. My first real job was in histology so I know exactly what you mean! I started escaping the lab AWOL to do session work, then became full time in music for 14 years. That was back in the 70s and 80s!!. As bizarre as it sounds, I still get a few trinkets in royalties from an album I released in 1988 so yes, don't sign away your copyright. After some 20+ years now in business software development, management and consulting I'll be mostly full time in music again from mid next year when I take a package. I've been planning and preparing for this for four years - CANNOT WAIT (oh, and I just turned 60, I just refuse to get old ).


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## StevenMcDonald (Nov 6, 2015)

First off, I LOVED reading this thread.

As for my answer - no, not yet. But hopefully very soon. I'm 24 years old, married, own a house and have no children. My amazing wife works, and thanks to Oklahoma's cost of living, we can ALMOST survive on just her salary. I currently have a full time job as a graphic designer in a marketing firm (dream job for some, but I really have been hating it lately and I have no passion for design) and I make quite a bit more than my wife, so we are able to save money pretty well.

As for music - about a year ago the music coordinator for a Cable TV Music library in LA found my personal music youtube channel and asked me if I wanted to join their small group of composers. Since royalty processing + show production times takes roughly a year, my BMI Works Catalog page has finally started filling up. So far, for Q2 of 2015, I've had 405 music tracks registered, so at least 405 placements on TV shows. And it's still november, so by the time this quarter ends, that number should jump up a lot. I'll finally see my first paycheck in January.

I know the royalties won't be a ton, but I also know that as time goes on and shows re-run and more of my music is in the library, the royalties will snowball up. But thanks to having a working wife and low cost of living, I am hoping to be able to quit my full time job and write music for a living starting in January.  It finally feels real, seeing that works catalog page fill up with new tracks. When I'm living on royalties, it will also leave me more time to seek out video game scoring jobs, which is my real dream/passion.

I'm trying to keep my expectations low for that first royalties check... but even if it's a 3rd of what I'm making now, that would be enough to convince me to go for full-time.


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## Vanni (Dec 3, 2015)

Dears,
Just chiming in as I want to tell you all how exceptionally inspiring is what you all have created with this forum. I am a long time hobby musician, but basically I have no one else to share this passion with: my friends, job and acquaintances don't speak this "language".
This place is virtual, but it's exceptionally inspiring in a real way. It's like breathing fresh air.

Now I'll keep on reading.

Vanni

PS
Sorry to be that guy, but why are you calling rctec Hans (Zimmer)? Please, make my day, tell me that the man is a regular around here...


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## mc_deli (Dec 3, 2015)

Consider your day made


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## d.healey (Dec 3, 2015)

Vanni said:


> Sorry to be that guy, but why are you calling rctec Hans (Zimmer)? Please, make my day, tell me that the man is a regular around here...


Consider your day made!


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## d.healey (Dec 3, 2015)

mc_deli said:


> Consider your day made


Haha I left the page loaded while I was doing stuff and in the interim you posted


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## gsilbers (Dec 3, 2015)

I have a day job with 2 hour commute. then make music at night and weekends. 1/3 of income comes from music.
ask me if I have a life 
Life in LA is pricey for just the music. I wish I had a house paid or something. between rent and taxes on music its hard to take the plunge to full time. but I do see ex berklee guys making it big and others don't... so I guess its who you know. or I suck because I dont practice enough and I cant practice enough because I don't get enough gigs or have time/$$.


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