# Shopping for an 88 key MIDI contoller



## snowleopard

Hi friends, my old Kurzweil K2600 I mainly use as a MIDI controller is about dead (motherboard) and perhaps not worth the cost to repair ($700). I may pay to repair it anyway, but it's got me thinking about the market for a new MIDI keyboard controller. Here is what I desire, but it's hard to find: 

88 keys - I want them semi-weighted. I'm really a synthesist, and hammer action piano keys aren't what I'm looking for. It's not the weight of the keys (I studied piano years ago like others), but the response, so if someone has a great argument for a weighted action keyboard that handles synth sounds really well, I'm all ears. 

Aftertouch - I notice a lot of the 88 key controllers omit this for some reason. 

I'd like to have the mod and pitch wheels to the left and not above the keyboard, but I can't seem to find too many that do this. 

I don't need a lot of sliders or knobs. 

I can't say money is no object, but I don't try to earn a living from music. I have a very good day job, so it's not like I'm a starving musician trying to budget something cheap in. Throw anything at me, regardless of cost. Let me worry about the budget. 

The only controller I've found that seems to fit this is the older StudioLogic VMK 88 (and +), but they are very hard to find, and the newer versions all have hammer action keys.


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## Guy Rowland

Will be waiting for user reports on this - http://www.nektartech.com/Impact-LX88-News . No aftertouch though. Would prefer none of the bells and whistles and like you I'd put the wheels on the LHS, but if the keyboard is better quality I might have to get it anyway. The M Audio is depressing.


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## ghostnote

Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 20 said:


> Will be waiting for user reports on this - http://www.nektartech.com/Impact-LX88-News . No aftertouch though. Would prefer none of the bells and whistles and like you I'd put the wheels on the LHS, but if the keyboard is better quality I might have to get it anyway. The M Audio is depressing.



I agree, the Keystation is my last M-Audio product. 

The LX88 seemed to be nice but then I read that it's 16cm/6,3inches tall (the keystation 88es is just 9cm and the Impact 61 version just 7cm). I'll be going for the Remote SL instead.


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## Guy Rowland

What on earth?! Why is it so much more chunky?

Is there an 88 note version of the Remote SL?


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## ghostnote

Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 20 said:


> What on earth?! Why is it so much more chunky?



Yeah, that's what I thought. Thomann says: dimensions: 1325 x 340 x 160mm.
http://www.thomann.de/gb/nektar_impact_lx88.htm
http://www.nektartech.com/c.1289520/Nektar%20site/Products/Impact_LX/LX88_kbd.jpg (http://www.nektartech.com/c.1289520/Nek ... 88_kbd.jpg)

I guess it's a typo.



Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 20 said:


> Is there an 88 note version of the Remote SL?



Nope 61, but I whish there would be one though.


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## NYC Composer

Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 20 said:


> Will be waiting for user reports on this - http://www.nektartech.com/Impact-LX88-News . No aftertouch though. Would prefer none of the bells and whistles and like you I'd put the wheels on the LHS, but if the keyboard is better quality I might have to get it anyway. The M Audio is depressing.



Arrgghh. So my M Audio KSP 88 is finally dying, and I like the look and price of the LX-88, plan to go and try one, UNTIL I realize- it has one pedal input. One. How much could it have cost to add one more so that one could have both a sustain pedal and an expression pedal ?? Just dumb.


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## artsoundz

NYC Composer @ Sun Feb 22 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will be waiting for user reports on this - http://www.nektartech.com/Impact-LX88-News . No aftertouch though. Would prefer none of the bells and whistles and like you I'd put the wheels on the LHS, but if the keyboard is better quality I might have to get it anyway. The M Audio is depressing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arrgghh. So my M Audio KSP 88 is finally dying, and I like the look and price of the LX-88, plan to go and try one, UNTIL I realize- it has one pedal input. One. How much could it have cost to add one more so that one could have both a sustain pedal and an expression pedal ?? Just dumb.
Click to expand...


Yeah-saw that as well. baffling.
There's this- http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigblueboard/


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## NYC Composer

artsoundz @ Sun Feb 22 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will be waiting for user reports on this - http://www.nektartech.com/Impact-LX88-News . No aftertouch though. Would prefer none of the bells and whistles and like you I'd put the wheels on the LHS, but if the keyboard is better quality I might have to get it anyway. The M Audio is depressing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arrgghh. So my M Audio KSP 88 is finally dying, and I like the look and price of the LX-88, plan to go and try one, UNTIL I realize- it has one pedal input. One. How much could it have cost to add one more so that one could have both a sustain pedal and an expression pedal ?? Just dumb.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah-saw that as well. baffling.
> There's this- http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigblueboard/
Click to expand...


That's interesting, Art. Thanks for bringing it up. So in theory, it'll take two pedal inputs, yes?


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## artsoundz

Yes- 2 inputs. So for another bill, that makes the nektar still reasonably priced IF the board does what we hope. For me it's the keybed and the dimensions that appeal to me the most. 
Still think, however, that the casio privia etc line has the kind of keybed that feels great. It's somewhere between a weighted and semi weighted. Thats my sweet spot and the casios have it . Im surprised more dont seem interested in them.
Still waiting for the right board.....


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## snowleopard

Thanks Artsoundz, for the tip on the Casio Privia line. As I noted in my original post, aftertouch means a lot to me. I'm not really looking for weighted keys, but if what you say is true about the Privia line feeling between semi-weighted and weighted, it may be what I need. 

The only other option I could find out there is the older StudioLogic VMK88, which no one seems to carry, and the newer version has full hammer-action weighted keys.


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## JohnG

The StudioLogic VMK88 is much, much better than anything else I've had a chance to try. Keyboard feels just right to me (I already have an actual piano, and am not looking for that exact feel, seeking instead something in between the real thing and a simple plastic keyboard, a bit like the OP).

I would have bought the StudioLogic on the spot except the old one substitutes a weird joystick for both modwheel and pitch bend... 

http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/n ... -20038.jpg

...and the new one has a sort of toggle thing instead of a pitch wheel, and (as far as I can see in the picture) no modwheel at all (although there are a lot of programmable knobs and sliders).

http://www.studiologic-music.com/pictures-vmk-88-plus.html (http://www.studiologic-music.com/pictur ... -plus.html)

The specs indicate "Modulation Wheel," but I don't actually see it on the instrument anywhere in the pictures. Going to write to them. [edit: wrote to them and their website is incorrect -- there is no modwheel]

Other good stuff: I can't follow all the German on their video, but it does look as though it has an excellent setup for sliders (on the right), which are assignable in three different ways, depending on which selector you choose.

Also, there are at least two assignable foot pedal inputs in the back, so I guess one could buy a separate modwheel or use a pedal instead (for cc1).

Still waiting to try a Doepfer.


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## dcoscina

John, I had this Fatar board for a while and found the sliders to send random CC signals out occasionally. Wasn't too cool. I did like the action on the board.


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## JohnG

Hi David,

Do you remember how long ago? And which manufacturer?

I'm hearing that virtually all the main-line 88-key keyboards are made by Fatar nowadays, so problems like your random cc info (really must have been maddening) must be attended to by the assemblers.

I don't know if this is really correct, but from what I've heard Fatar is the base for just about everyone (Studiologic, Akai, Doepfer -- all of them from what I hear).


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## snowleopard

99% sure my dying Kurzweil is a Fatar. Really nice feel to the keys, problems not-withstanding. 

Thanks for the feedback in the StudioLogic VMK88, JohnG. Much appreciated. I'm still trying to find the model below, or something that has these same features. Sadly, it seems to be either no longer made, or no one makes anything like it. Which is why I posted here. But as I said before, if someone can steer me to a full weighted board that has enough of a response for synth sounds, I'm all ears. I just find them all to be directly aimed at piano playing (and piano-like/percussive sounds). That's great for pianos, drums and such. And not so great for thigns like pads, strings, swells, choirs, etc. etc. etc. 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/660646-REG/StudioLogic_VMK_88_PLUS_VMK88_Keyboard_Controller.html


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## artsoundz

snowleopard @ Mon Feb 23 said:


> 99% sure my dying Kurzweil is a Fatar. Really nice feel to the keys, problems not-withstanding.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback in the StudioLogic VMK88, JohnG. Much appreciated. I'm still trying to find the model below, or something that has these same features. Sadly, it seems to be either no longer made, or no one makes anything like it. Which is why I posted here. But as I said before, if someone can steer me to a full weighted board that has enough of a response for synth sounds, I'm all ears. I just find them all to be directly aimed at piano playing (and piano-like/percussive sounds). That's great for pianos, drums and such. And not so great for thigns like pads, strings, swells, choirs, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/660646-REG/StudioLogic_VMK_88_PLUS_VMK88_Keyboard_Controller.html



I would caution you against the vmk. I had one although it was the first version. The keybed wasnt bad but felt spongy. But the worst part was the case . Polypropolene- soft, pliable plastic. Super light but, for me, earned the moniker of "the tupperware of keyboards." Very strange board. 

At least the music would be fresh. Hahahaha......(slap!) thanks, I needed that.


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## JohnG

Hey artsoundz and snowleopard,

1. artsoundz -- Definitely the VMK has more than one model. I am trying to figure out exactly which one I tried -- the keyboard feel was awesome. I suspect it was actually the VMK188 or VMK188 Plus, not the VMK88. I do appreciate your cautionary note, though. Spongey is not welcome. 

2. snowleopard -- Fully weighted electronic keyboards do, as far as I can tell, seem to arrive with the goal of emulating a real piano. One I've heard praised but not tried is the Kawai VPC1, which does sound great if that's what you want. However, like others with fully-weighted keyboards, it's not a midi controller but a would-be piano.

Holy Grail?

On Studiologic's website, it says that the VMK188Plus has the same keyboard as their SL990Pro, which DOES have a modwheel, though the website has no information about how to use a foot pedal for cc11 information. Even the manual doesn't say exactly what's on the back panel as far as inputs, and the pictures are too far away to interpret. Have another email in to them about this but with time zones probably won't hear until at least tomorrow. Will share.

Last But Maybe Not Least

There's also this, the "Numa Concert," which I haven't tried but their website says it's, "a professional live performance digital piano and a high definition keyboard controller, with 88 keys Graded Hammer Action, solid wood key body and Ivory touch on the top surface of the white keys. The key action of the Numa Concert provides an absolute authentic touch of a Concert Piano and the triple switch contact system allows a fast repeating rate and a total dynamic control." [from studiologic website]

http://www.studiologic-music.com/numaconcert.html


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## artsoundz

John,
To be clear, I did like the vmk keybed. Wayyyyy better than maudio. So...spongy not really a great adjective. 
The sl990 . Had one and just loved that keybed. It's very much like the casio line I mentioned- just about in between the heavy fatar we know and the semi weighted synth feel. I just think casio's bed is just a smidgeon lighter but both very close. Casio is so inexpensive.
In the end, my sl990 just got worn out and I dont like the heavy weight.( both keybed feel and weight of the board) 
I've always wanted to try the newer vmk88's though. I thought they were close but when I opened up mine to do a fix, I was sorta appalled that the case hinge was actually just thinner poly all one piece with the case. Thus...tupperware. But, super light and, now I read, 4 pedal inputs? Sweet.


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## JohnG

[deleted]


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## artsoundz

John,
Sorry...just dont remember as it was probably 8 years ago or more. But almost certain it did. Just loved that keybed, though. As an aside, What i like about Fatar is that it is dead simple to open up and clean the contacts which seems inevitable in the long run. 

Please check out a casio. Lot's of things missing, of course, like sliders etc. but that keybed...It's counterintuitive but it might surprise you.
Edit- one very cool handy thing about sl 990 - lots of space on the keyboard top to set stuff on. Perfect board if one uses ancillary devices for cc control.


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## JohnG

I just heard back from Studiologic and they wrote:

1. The SL990 Pro and VMK188plus do have the same keyboard (TP40GH)

2. The SL990 Pro has a Sustain Pedal jack input; your EV-5 cannot be connected.

3. The SL990 (as mentioned above and in the site's specification) can accept a sustain pedal (switch) and not a continuos control

Thanks and regards,


GG by Studiologic

So I'm checking back with them to see if they sell a keyboard with what I (and I suspect others) would like.

[edit -- the Fatar site says 40GH stands for "TP/40GH: Four Zones Graded Hammer Action"]


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## davinwv

Did you look at the Studiologic Acuna 88. Sustain, expression, and breath control imputs, pitch/mod wheels, and 4 rotary encoders with a great Fatar action.


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## Guy Rowland

davinwv @ Mon Feb 23 said:


> Did you look at the Studiologic Acuna 88. Sustain, expression, and breath control imputs, pitch/mod wheels, and 4 rotary encoders with a great Fatar action.



Weighted.


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## artsoundz

Weighted,yes but,according to the site, it's their lightest keybed for the weighted. Seems to imply that it's even lighter than the bed in sl990 and vmk188. Having had the 990 , I'm intrigued about that.


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## ThomasL

Perhaps not what you're looking for but my vote goes to the old Alesis QS8 (not 8.1 or 8.2, just 8 ). Full 88-keys, weighted though but with excellent AT-response. I got one a few months back real cheap second hand. Built like a tank.

Not too fond of the Mod Wheel to be honest and I don't care too much of how it sounds. The playing is great though.


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## Mahlon

artsoundz @ Mon Feb 23 said:


> Please check out a casio. Lot's of things missing, of course, like sliders etc. but that keybed...It's counterintuitive but it might surprise you.
> Edit- one very cool handy thing about sl 990 - lots of space on the keyboard top to set stuff on. Perfect board if one uses ancillary devices for cc control.



Which model Privia do you think would fit the bill? I've always been interested in Casio because I use external sliders and wheels anyway. And I like the size/price.

Thanks,
Mahlon


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## JohnG

Only problem with SL990 Pro is inability to use cc11 pedal. That really is a problem for me but otherwise it's perfect.

I had someone suggest the Privia PX-5S

http://www.casio.com/products/Digital_P ... cal_Specs/


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## Jdiggity1

JohnG @ Tue 24 Feb said:


> I just heard back from Studiologic and they wrote:
> 
> 1. The SL990 Pro and VMK188plus do have the same keyboard (TP40GH)
> 
> [edit -- the Fatar site says 40GH stands for "TP/40GH: Four Zones Graded Hammer Action"]



TP/40GH is a nice keybed for sure. This is used in the high-end Doepfer models (LMK4+).

I use an SL-880 that I picked up second hand a little while back, and I am extremely happy with it. The board itself is physically heavy, but once it is where you want it, no dramas.

The Kawai VPC1 (or MP10) is the bomb-diggity when it comes to expressive piano playing, but the SL-880 is plenty capable.


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## artsoundz

JohnG @ Mon Feb 23 said:


> Only problem with SL990 Pro is inability to use cc11 pedal. That really is a problem for me but otherwise it's perfect.
> 
> I had someone suggest the Privia PX-5S
> 
> http://www.casio.com/products/Digital_P ... cal_Specs/


 
Privia is sure pricy. Dang. 

But the vmk188 has the same keys as the sl990 and 4 inputs or 3 - seems like what you want. I wish i could play/compare that one and the numa.


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## JohnG

I am thinking of getting the SL990 Pro and then something cheap (cheaper than the Novation ZeRO SL MkII) that can accommodate the 1/4" continuous controller jack for the cc11 info.


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## TravB

If you have an available 5-pin MIDI input, you can use one of these handy little boxes to add a foot controller to just about anything and have it send whatever CC message you want.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MIDIPC


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## proxima

TravB @ Mon Feb 23 said:


> If you have an available 5-pin MIDI input, you can use one of these handy little boxes to add a foot controller to just about anything and have it send whatever CC message you want.
> 
> http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MIDIPC


Wow that's an expensive box for this purpose. You're better off buying the cheapest used (broken?) 25-key keyboard and hiding it behind your desk. One might think there'd be a market for a pedal <-> USB interface out there, but I guess not.


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## lucor

JohnG @ Tue Feb 24 said:


> I am thinking of getting the SL990 Pro and then something cheap (cheaper than the Novation ZeRO SL MkII) that can accommodate the 1/4" continuous controller jack for the cc11 info.



Not sure if you know about this already, but from what I've heard the SL990 Pro has two major issues: 

- The modwheel sends out random CC data, even when you don't touch it at all.
- The velocity doesn't go up to 127. I remember reading that no matter how hard you hit the keys, you can't reach higher than about 119.

Just a little warning, in case you hadn't heard about this already. It's what prevented me from buying one of these, because otherwise that thing sure is tempting... :?


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## Guy Rowland

Sheesh - why is it so hard to make a decent unweighted 88 note keyboard?

Get the 88 note semi-weighted Fatar. Put it in a box. Put good quality modwheel and pitch bend wheels onto the left hand side. Add jacks for sustain, CC1 and CC11. Put a logo on it.

Done.


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## Ozymandias

I can confirm the wheel problem with the SL990, but frankly they're not great even when they work properly. Ultimately, I decided THIS was the best solution. :lol:

And the velocity sensing is definitely so-so in my experience. Putting the TP40/GH action through Nils Liberg's velocity test will show you how "pro" it is (or isn't).

That's not to say the SL990 isn't usable, but it's no more than that. As others have noted, the only true positives are the fact that you can ditch the chassis and mount it into your own furniture and the degree of user repair-ability. Those are the only reasons I haven't kicked mine out the door yet.


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## snowleopard

Guy Rowland @ Tue Feb 24 said:


> Sheesh - why is it so hard to make a decent unweighted 88 note keyboard?


One would think. 

My guess is that since there are more piano players than keyboard/synth players out there, the assumption is that if you're going for 88 keys, you want as close to a piano you can get. If not, you'll buy an actual synth with knobs & sliders, or 61 keys is fine.


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## JohnG

lucor @ 24th February 2015 said:


> JohnG @ Tue Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am thinking of getting the SL990 Pro and then something cheap (cheaper than the Novation ZeRO SL MkII) that can accommodate the 1/4" continuous controller jack for the cc11 info.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if you know about this already, but from what I've heard the SL990 Pro has two major issues:
> 
> - The modwheel sends out random CC data, even when you don't touch it at all.
> - The velocity doesn't go up to 127. I remember reading that no matter how hard you hit the keys, you can't reach higher than about 119.
> 
> Just a little warning, in case you hadn't heard about this already. It's what prevented me from buying one of these, because otherwise that thing sure is tempting... :?
Click to expand...


I hadn't heard this -- thanks!


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## JohnG

email exchange with Studiologic / Fatar -- might be helpful to others:

Me: Do you sell any controller or keyboard that has all of this:

1. uses this TP40GH keyboard,

2. has both pitch bend and modwheel (cc1), and

3. can accommodate a continuous controller foot pedal like the EV-5?

Thank you

---------------------------
Studiologic reply: presently we have the NUMA NANO, with a similar keyboard (different model, very good feeling) and NUMA NERO (same specification, wooden keyboard).

You can check both at : http://www.studiologic-music.com/numa-nano-introduction.html (http://www.studiologic-music.com/numa-n ... ction.html) - and: http://www.studiologic-music.com/numa-nero.html
For the availability you could ask your nearest dealers and/or refer to our local distributor, listed at: http://www.studiologic-music.com/in-the-world.html
We're also working on a new line that will have all those specs and more, but so far I'm not able to tell a date (it is not going to be very soon)

Let me know, thanks and regards !


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## holywilly

Roland A88 i a great choice for MIDI master keyboard and it's price friendly.

VMK-188 isn't a good choice, we have 5 in the studio and all have random MIDI signal and other problems after a year of usage.


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## JohnG

how old are your VMK188s? Out of curiosity?

I read a fairly long screed on Amazon about a Numa Nero purchaser's travails, which eventually were resolved, but it's from 2011, so I am a little curious about whether those issues have been resolved.

Possibly wishful thinking, but I really liked the feel of the VMK188 I tried.


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## artsoundz

As I said earlier, I had an Sl990 for years. I just looked at a midi file from that era and found plenty of 127 note velocity data. Looking at cc stuff, nothing looks amiss and dont remember it being a problem. However...
I've heard about this issue quite a bit. I assumed these things were worked out over the years but now I'm wondering. Im dissapointed about the vmk188 as I was starting to lean that way myself. 
Ive been going down this road for 20 years. Ughh...


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## JohnG

I am getting the feeling that yes, there have been some quality problems in the past. It does seem that some of them are a bit old news, but there are enough of them to put one on notice, at least a bit.

Nevertheless, I emailed Studiologic's USA distributor to see who has some of these models in the store in LA. If you buy one special order and it's not working properly, you are going to have a harder time, I would think, getting an exchange.

So if nobody has one in stock in my area I'll wait until Doepfer ships, I guess.


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## jaeroe

re value of 127 - 127 is actually the top value MIDI can register. it has 128 values slots, but they range from 0-127. so basically 0=1, 1=2.... 127=128. nothing actually sends 128 without increased bit depth in the message. (you can look on midi.org)

I too will likely be in the market for a new weighted 88 key controller soon.

currently have the VMK 188 plus (had it 7 years so far) and a MPK88

my VMK188 was fine until maybe 6 months ago when some velocity sensors started to go. i started to get some other erratic behavior, but then recently realized it had to do with the AC adapter - unplugged that (just going off of USB power now) and it's been working much better. sensors need to be replaced, but fine otherwise.

prior to that, the only real issue i've had (same on two different units) was that CC pedal sends a message of 127 when you go to 0. pretty annoying, but i hadn't found any one solution that was better.

the MPK88 is fantastic for programming,with the sliders and read out - drum pads can be great for key switching (and loads of banks for that, as well as faders and sliders). build like a tank.... but, it sort of plays like a tank, as well. that's my only complaint about this keyboard. it makes a weird clunk noise when you play/release the keys and has a slight click feel when you trigger the sensor. you get used to it, and great to play otherwise, but.... they're all compromises at this point.

I tried the Acuna 88 and really liked the feel. again, Studio Logic, so not totally sure. I didn't get a change to run it through the ringer before I realized it only has 1 USB port, so if you use the iPad with it (no slides) then you have to use the MIDI port and thus a MIDI interface to connect to your computer.

I ordered from GC Pro and they worked something out with American Music and Sound where they let me try the Acuna out and I could send it back if there was a problem because I'd had issues with the Studio Logic stuff before. Need to try i and no one had it in store. I'd go to GC Pro and ask.


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## JohnG

jaeroe @ 24th February 2015 said:


> I tried the Acuna 88 and really liked the feel. again, Studio Logic, so not totally sure. I didn't get a change to run it through the ringer before I realized it only has 1 USB port, so if you use the iPad with it (no slides) then you have to use the MIDI port and thus a MIDI interface to connect to your computer.



How does the keyboard itself on the Acuna 88 compare with that of the VMK188? It has a different Fatar keyboard model, but I loved the VMK188. 

I am looking to replace my aging Kurzweil.


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## jaeroe

for reference - I had K2600X for eons. loved that thing. fixed the key sensors myself so many times.... i can't tell you.

i actually really liked the Acuna88 - better than the feel of the 188, but not that far off. The key bed somehow feels a little more solid. the keys themselves feel pretty much the same. the chassis is different, so i imagine they did a different keyboard for that model. the Acuna also doesn't physically weigh as much as the 188, but they keyboard feel was not lighter on the acuna.

i have a friend who has the Acuna and is happy enough with it. that's what got me to try it initially. he works a lot and i think it's done all right for him.


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## JohnG

thanks!


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## jaeroe

John - if you're in LA, i'd get in touch with someone at GC Pro and see about getting the Acuna. A) they should be able to work something out with AMS (studio logic distributor in the US) and B) you'll get a better price. they might have done it for me because i've done a good amount of business with GC Pro over the years and i was going to get a controller from them one way or another, just a question of which model.

i wouldn't make that request right out of the gate, i'd just say 'hey, looking at 88 key controllers, you carry Studio Logic, i'm interested in Acuna 88.... do you have it on the floor (no), looks great, but i really what to try it out before shelling out having read about all the issues with different Studio Logic models (not all, but some have issues).... (bloviate ad nauseum)

with the acuna you can also make it an issue of how the implementation with the iPad is - that was the real issue that AMS couldn't say for certain and since the iPad is what provides slides etc, it is a real issue for some people.


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## NYC Composer

And now there's this: http://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid- ... 8/overview

Hmm.


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## Maestro77

NYC Composer @ Wed Feb 25 said:


> And now there's this: http://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid- ... 8/overview
> 
> Hmm.



I played around with this recently at a retail store. It was the worst keybed I've ever seen. Keys were moving left and right and felt like they could break off any moment. Very flimsy build. Was very disappointed.


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## NYC Composer

good to know, although disappointing.


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## artsoundz

The nektar 88 is now shipping. Amazon is the least expensive- $285
Edit- update- in the space of a few hours, Amazon raised the price to $299. 
Now it's the same price as everywhete else.


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## JohnG

if you mean the Nektar Impact LX88 88-key USB MIDI Controller, it doesn't seem to have an input for an expression pedal (cc11). I emailed the company to double-check, but it looks doubtful based on what I can find online.

Otherwise looks like an unusually rich feature suite.


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## artsoundz

JohnG @ Thu Feb 26 said:


> if you mean the Nektar Impact LX88 88-key USB MIDI Controller, it doesn't seem to have an input for an expression pedal (cc11). I emailed the company to double-check, but it looks doubtful based on what I can find online.
> 
> Otherwise looks like an unusually rich feature suite.



Right. That's why I'm picking this up for $99-

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigblueboard/

If it works as claimed then, for $385, it could be a killer setup. That is if the keyboard feels good ( as Jose stated when he tried one at Namm) 

Of note, the blueboard has 2 pedal inputs among other useful features.


----------



## JohnG

sure -- or maybe just a very small 1-2 octave keyboard.

Looks pretty interesting.


----------



## Waywyn

Pardon me, I didn't read through all the comments, so I am sorry if I step on anyones feet!

I tried a lot of controllers: M Audio Axiom 25, Axiom Pro 61, CME UF7, Fatar Studiologic 990 Pro, Nektar Panorama P6 ... they are ALL CRAP!

I am seriously! The Modwheel on the Studiologic is like the most crazy thing I have ever seen. It works so bad you can't even use it because it continuously sends out data! I even contacted support and they said: Yes, we know about these issues! FOR YEARS NOW!! ... and they still sell their shit!

The MAudio stuff had issues by sending out CC11 even though when I am just hitting a key. I don't have any fancy MIDI stuff programmed so it clearly came from the keyboard itself. The CME simply reset itself sometimes and was sending out Pitchwheel commands. Everything started to sound out of tune ... The Panorama integration on the P6 at least works like bullshit. It even slowed down Cubase because it behaved like crazy when I inserted a new track somewhere in the middle and that keyboard to reconfigure since it wasn't obviously clever enough to rearrange tracks fast enough. It took like 1-3 seconds until the order was clear and Cubase kind of had to wait! ... and you get a better motorfader from every chewing gum machine! 

Do yourself a favor and buy something without all the fancy stuff and control stuff with worthable better MIDI controllers!
I can't speak for the Nektartech LX88 though ... 

Just a reminder that there is a lot of crap out there and I would love to see some manufactures getting their shit straight to produce stuff which is simply nothing but working!
Ironically I recently got the Alesis v61 as a emergency solution. It was just around 130 bucks and it seems more solid than all those things above combined!

Sorry for the little rant!


----------



## Guy Rowland

It is depressing reading all these horror stories. I'm actually considering the Alesis q88 after Alex's post - it's all I need, I just want it to be reliable and with a more even velocity response than my es88. I realise it's just a rebadge, but my current es88 has been particularly bad, maybe I got unlucky.


----------



## artsoundz

JohnG @ Thu Feb 26 said:


> sure -- or maybe just a very small 1-2 octave keyboard.
> 
> Looks pretty interesting.



The 1-2 octave kybrd is a great alternative giving you those xtra keys for something else.
Like yourself, I'm on Dp so I'm assuming one would make a midi device group for the 2 keyboards to work as one. 
I like the idea of 2 inputs on the blueboard if only for cc67 soft pedal. Drawbacks are battery power and reliability of bluetooth (probably fine)

Alex- true enough. I didnt have the modwheel issue on my sl990 but from reading on the net these last few years, I guess I was lucky. Bizarre that Studiologic doesnt fix this. 
Same with my maudio axiom. No weirdness but have already gone through 2 boards from the keys not working. 
So, you are absolutely correct. It's a crap shoot.

One year from now the vax will make most happy.
One a side note- http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~andrewm/touchkeys.html


----------



## Tanuj Tiku

What about Doepfer? Seems to be popular with a lot of folks in LA. 

I thought it was one of the best MIDI controllers out there. I am very tempted to place an order myself. 

My AKAI just died. 5 keys on my DS Prophet 08 also died in the last octave. 

My Yamaha S90ES is the best purchase I have made as far as keyboards go. I have been using it for about 8 years now. Its even had two falls off the stand but it works just like it did the first day. No problems whatsoever. 

I bought it in the UK, moved it from Leicester to Bournemouth. Shipped it to India, changed 5 houses in Mumbai. Took it on stage a few times. 

It just works! 

But, I am seriously planning to get Doepfer because the S90ES is too bulky to fit in my new studio. 

Doepfer is expensive but if I have to buy a new controller every two years then it is way better to get that. 

And interestingly, most MIDI controllers have similar problems these days - sending random MIDI messages and keys going kaput! 

My assistant's 18 month old Novation started giving problems a few months back and today the little display was going mental. I had a CME once upon a time and I remember it too had some random CC problem. 

Motif was really good. Come to thin of it, Yamaha has been fantastic for me - everytime!


Tanuj.


----------



## NYC Composer

It's true. There's an amazing dearth of well regarded products in this arena. A really well made feature rich unit retailing at a grand or under is gonna clean up if the word of mouth is good.

I want to try the Nektar/iRig combo. I'm hoping that's it, though I wish there was a one box solution.


----------



## AC986

Key beds!

Key beds are always the problem.


----------



## JohnG

Waywyn -- you sometimes have a way of cutting through!

I'm waiting for Doepfers to arrive and I'll try one of those.


----------



## Soundhound

If you get the LX88 would love to hear how it goes!! 



artsoundz @ Thu Feb 26 said:


> JohnG @ Thu Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> if you mean the Nektar Impact LX88 88-key USB MIDI Controller, it doesn't seem to have an input for an expression pedal (cc11). I emailed the company to double-check, but it looks doubtful based on what I can find online.
> 
> Otherwise looks like an unusually rich feature suite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right. That's why I'm picking this up for $99-
> 
> http://www.ikmultimedia.com/products/irigblueboard/
> 
> If it works as claimed then, for $385, it could be a killer setup. That is if the keyboard feels good ( as Jose stated when he tried one at Namm)
> 
> Of note, the blueboard has 2 pedal inputs among other useful features.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ozymandias

Tanuj Tiku @ Thu Feb 26 said:


> What about Doepfer? Seems to be popular with a lot of folks in LA.
> 
> I thought it was one of the best MIDI controllers out there.



Unless they work some special magic with the parts they get from Fatar, it seems to me that it's just the usual TP40 action in a rather expensive box.


----------



## Soundhound

I thought I should post here about my nektar p1 since the lx88 is under discussion here--I'm very interested in the lx88. If I can get past the problems I've been having with the P1.

I've only had it a few months and liked the way it works to a great degree. Though I'm keeping an eye on when/if/ever behringer actually release the xtouch with the scribble strips.

I'd been having all kinds of freezing problems and isolated it to the P1. I haven't been using it (and have gone back to my korg nanokontrol 2 in the meantime which works fine) and haven't been getting the freezes. I've been speaking with Nektar and they haven't been able to recreate the problem on their end. They're still looking into it. 

A couple of caveats. 
- I use an axiom pro 61, whcih a lot of people have said has caused them problems. It didn't seem to be the problem, when I removed the p1 and still used axiom no freezes, p1 and no axiom: freezes. but still, it's in the mix in all this.
- I've been experiencing other problems (Kontakt midi weirdness and some vep5 midi problems as well. So take any reports from these parts with a shaker of salt!


----------



## JohnG

Ozymandias @ 26th February 2015 said:


> Unless they work some special magic with the parts they get from Fatar, it seems to me that it's [the Doepfer] just the usual TP40 action in a rather expensive box.



That's what I thought, but I keep reading stuff that really puts me off of some of these other keyboards. On a deadline, nobody can deal with random cc events or notes spinning out of the keyboard.

And some of them are almost ludicrously inexpensive. How can you make a solid product for $300-600 with all that hardware in it? 

I know from a friend's experience what compromises are required to get laptops to the $500 level and, while a keyboard is a little different of course, I'd much rather pay an extra $1,000 and get something that will work for a long time.


----------



## Jdiggity1

Guy Rowland @ Fri 27 Feb said:


> It is depressing reading all these horror stories. I'm actually considering the Alesis q88 after Alex's post - it's all I need, I just want it to be reliable and with a more even velocity response than my es88. I realise it's just a rebadge, but my current es88 has been particularly bad, maybe I got unlucky.



I upgraded from the 61es to the q88 a couple years ago.
Overall, the q88 is a touch better. Keys play a little bit better, but velocity response is not a strong point. It was great for anything with modwheel-controlled dynamics, but you simply can not give a convincing piano performance on it. 
As a side, after only 9 months of moderate use on the q88 the Modwheel started to act very flakey, and rendered itself unusable.
So I picked up a second hand SL-880 for less than I bought the q88 new, and it is leaps and bounds ahead in terms of quality, keybed, etc.
From what I gather, the Sl-880 gets better user feedback than the sl-990 pro.
Yes, the mod-wheel will send out messages if not at 0, but I use a NanoKontrol for that anyway.
I intend on using this board for as long as it will hold out. I like it.


----------



## muk

The Roland A88 has a decent keybed. It's the same one they use in their lower end digital piano. The combined modwheel/pitchbend joystick is a bad idea though and the 'd-beam' looks gimmicky at best. But if you want a solid keybed in a slimline case the A88 is definitely worth looking at.


----------



## Guy Rowland

With another sigh, thanks jdiggity. And the Nektar is out cos of no expression pedal input (no space for a larger small keyboard - the Nanokey does my keyswitch chores perfectly by sitting on top of the main unit). I might still get the Alesis, the current es88 is so terrible it has to be an improvement even if it only lasts 12 months.


----------



## Richard Wilkinson

I'm very happy with the casio privia. Significantly lighter than my mpk88 was, and as much as it looked cool, I just didn't use those mpc pads or sliders enough. So a light semi-weighted keyboard with surprisingly good built-in sounds is my replacement.


----------



## NYC Composer

Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> With another sigh, thanks jdiggity. And the Nektar is out cos of no expression pedal input (no space for a larger small keyboard - the Nanokey does my keyswitch chores perfectly by sitting on top of the main unit). I might still get the Alesis, the current es88 is so terrible it has to be an improvement even if it only lasts 12 months.



Did you look into that IK add on for expression, Guy? If the Nektar feels good, I'm going that way.


----------



## Guy Rowland

NYC Composer @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Fri Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With another sigh, thanks jdiggity. And the Nektar is out cos of no expression pedal input (no space for a larger small keyboard - the Nanokey does my keyswitch chores perfectly by sitting on top of the main unit). I might still get the Alesis, the current es88 is so terrible it has to be an improvement even if it only lasts 12 months.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you look into that IK add on for expression, Guy? If the Nektar feels good, I'm going that way.
Click to expand...


Yeaaahhh.... it's a bit messy though, isn't it? I have to get bluetooth on my main rig now? Just to get an expression pedal to work?

Thing is, I quite strongly don't like the Nektar anyway. I don't want any of its controls (and no room for even the Nanokey), and the mod / pitch wheels are all kinds of wrong. So the only reason to buy would be if the keyboard was great, and from some reports here already that doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## Walid F.

Next week on wednesday I'm hoping to try the Nektar LX88 here in Gothenburg. Will be interesting to try that out as I want:

Something that doesn't send out random MIDI data. A few controllers/knobs/faders for automation in Cubase. A simple, 88 key, semiweighted keybed that can reach 127, but also the low velocity range easily too. I don't need an expression pedal input as I'm usually doing that with a fader anyways.

So far I have had:

*Studiologic SL990 Pro* - This is actually quite a nice keyboard, but it did send out tons of modwheel and pitch random data. Had to send this back and forth 3 times until it was fixed (which now this only happens like once a month, very slightly). Sold this keyboard in search for a more lightweight one with controllers.

*Akai MPK88* - Really cool controllers and all but the modwheel wasn't in a good range. I think it either started sending midi data when it was 20% up, or it was at 127 when it was at about 90% of the range - tricky thing. Also the keys were SOO noisy and heavy as hell. Couldn't stand it after a while - try playing some fast percussion sequences with this...

*M-Audio *any keyboard** - No. No, nope. Keys stop working after a few months. Settings resetting themselves every now and then. Keybeds feel like they will break any second. Bleh. Get your shit together, M-Audio.

Hoping LX88 will be something worth trying. I'm not expecting a great keybed, but I am expecting things to work at least. Back with more next week.

W.


----------



## holywilly

I really wish Korg to come up with midi keyboard controller product line. I have used Korg Triton Pro X (88 keys) workstation as my midi controller for 5 years (I bought it second hand), the weighted keys are solid, they don't lose over time, the touch of the keys is just right, very well balanced. 

Roland A-88 will be my top choice if my Korg die.


----------



## NYC Composer

Walid F. @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Next week on wednesday I'm hoping to try the Nektar LX88 here in Gothenburg. Will be interesting to try that out as I want:
> 
> Something that doesn't send out random MIDI data. A few controllers/knobs/faders for automation in Cubase. A simple, 88 key, semiweighted keybed that can reach 127, but also the low velocity range easily too. I don't need an expression pedal input as I'm usually doing that with a fader anyways.
> 
> So far I have had:
> 
> *Studiologic SL990 Pro* - This is actually quite a nice keyboard, but it did send out tons of modwheel and pitch random data. Had to send this back and forth 3 times until it was fixed (which now this only happens like once a month, very slightly). Sold this keyboard in search for a more lightweight one with controllers.
> 
> *Akai MPK88* - Really cool controllers and all but the modwheel wasn't in a good range. I think it either started sending midi data when it was 20% up, or it was at 127 when it was at about 90% of the range - tricky thing. Also the keys were SOO noisy and heavy as hell. Couldn't stand it after a while - try playing some fast percussion sequences with this...
> 
> *M-Audio *any keyboard** - No. No, nope. Keys stop working after a few months. Settings resetting themselves every now and then. Keybeds feel like they will break any second. Bleh. Get your [email protected]#t together, M-Audio.
> 
> Hoping LX88 will be something worth trying. I'm not expecting a great keybed, but I am expecting things to work at least. Back with more next week.
> 
> W.



I hate to defend M Audio, but the Keystation Pro 88 was a tank for me til last week when a midi sensor went.I've had it for years and it was rock solid at what it did. Keyboard, kinda mushy, but the build was very solid. Wheels in the right place, dozens of sliders, knobs, etc. Arcane prgramming. Still, espe ially at the time, hard to beat for under $500 for a fully weighted keybd controller.


----------



## samphony

I'm using a Doepfer LMK4+ in conjunction with the Peavey 1600x. It's reliable, sturdy and I would always buy that set again.


----------



## Mahlon

I hate to defend m-audio, too. Had such driver issues with them many years ago. But the Oxygen 88 has turned out fairly well for me. Not the best keybed in the world. A little slow. All sliders are smooth and accurate though as is the modwheel. Very smooth response.

Mahlon


----------



## Walid F.

NYC Composer @ Fri Feb 27 said:


> Walid F. @ Fri Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next week on wednesday I'm hoping to try the Nektar LX88 here in Gothenburg. Will be interesting to try that out as I want:
> 
> Something that doesn't send out random MIDI data. A few controllers/knobs/faders for automation in Cubase. A simple, 88 key, semiweighted keybed that can reach 127, but also the low velocity range easily too. I don't need an expression pedal input as I'm usually doing that with a fader anyways.
> 
> So far I have had:
> 
> *Studiologic SL990 Pro* - This is actually quite a nice keyboard, but it did send out tons of modwheel and pitch random data. Had to send this back and forth 3 times until it was fixed (which now this only happens like once a month, very slightly). Sold this keyboard in search for a more lightweight one with controllers.
> 
> *Akai MPK88* - Really cool controllers and all but the modwheel wasn't in a good range. I think it either started sending midi data when it was 20% up, or it was at 127 when it was at about 90% of the range - tricky thing. Also the keys were SOO noisy and heavy as hell. Couldn't stand it after a while - try playing some fast percussion sequences with this...
> 
> *M-Audio *any keyboard** - No. No, nope. Keys stop working after a few months. Settings resetting themselves every now and then. Keybeds feel like they will break any second. Bleh. Get your [email protected]#t together, M-Audio.
> 
> Hoping LX88 will be something worth trying. I'm not expecting a great keybed, but I am expecting things to work at least. Back with more next week.
> 
> W.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to defend M Audio, but the Keystation Pro 88 was a tank for me til last week when a midi sensor went.I've had it for years and it was rock solid at what it did. Keyboard, kinda mushy, but the build was very solid. Wheels in the right place, dozens of sliders, knobs, etc. Arcane prgramming. Still, espe ially at the time, hard to beat for under $500 for a fully weighted keybd controller.
Click to expand...


I never actually tried that. I would love to, but it's no where to be found here in Sweden, and probably bunch of dineros to ship it over. Also, I lean more on semi/non-weighted because I want to play fast percussion with excellent precision and more. I know you can do that with weighted but I just want more synthlike action. Semi is a great compromise.

W.


----------



## Walid F.

I think the thing about defending M-Audio is -very- ehh.. how do you say that in english.. it depends on specific user experiences that differ a lot from eachother. Like one gets something that resets its settings, the other one gets keys that don't work or work half the time, the one next to him gets something that works like a charm. So it's natural people would have M-Audio defenders too, but even that aspect I think make them very flimsy and not so trustworthy for me to buy more stuff in the future (at least not new keyboards).

PS. I am in love with the M3-8 monitors though. I did a review on them on filmandgamecomposers.com. Check it out!

W.


----------



## Dryden.Chambers

Just a reminder of the Infinite Response VAX Kickstarter. With 12 days left they have hit there goal, and I am sure this will be a nice feeling board with Poly aftertouch.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/12 ... controller


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen

Does anyone know how the Alesis Q88 compares to the maudio? It looks identical so I'm worried that it'll be just as likely to get one with issues. 

I was considering getting the Maudio but there seems to be so many negative stories. The issue for me is that I need something that fits under my desk so nothing with any faders or knobs. I also can't justify spending more than a few hundred dollars (like on a Doepfer) since I have a really nice digital piano beside me which I use for recording piano parts and other sensitive parts. I just need something to be in front of me. Keys don't even need to feel very good and I don't care if its fully weighted. It just needs to work and not have loads of controllers so I can fit under my desk. 

Right now I have a really old Edirol controller (was $30 on ebay) which works perfectly but its only 49 keys and I hate having to constantly switch octaves so I'm looking for something that's 88 keys. I also have a 25 key Maudio which I never use because it sends 2 messages to every note.


----------



## JohnG

samphony @ 27th February 2015 said:


> I'm using a Doepfer LMK4+ in conjunction with the Peavey 1600x. It's reliable, sturdy and I would always buy that set again.



thanks!


----------



## Walid F.

Gerhard Westphalen @ Sat Feb 28 said:


> Does anyone know how the Alesis Q88 compares to the maudio? It looks identical so I'm worried that it'll be just as likely to get one with issues.



I believe it's the exact same model, same components, built in the same place and everything - just another brand name and logo on it. Buy an Alexis Q88 and you get a M-Audio 88es. 

W.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen

Even though there's a big chance that I may have problems with the maudio 88es (or the alesis) I'm thinking I may still pick it up as I can get a 2 year warranty on it for $10 at my local shop since it offers everything I need (if it works).


----------



## snowleopard

Out of all the keyboards I have played, I would probably say the M-Audio 88 is my least favorite. I really didn't like it, at all. 
Having said that, I never owned one, so I cant attest to it's durability.


----------



## Dryden.Chambers

Anyone tried the 88 note Arturia ?


----------



## reddognoyz

Nektar LX88 in da house.

I just set it up. I think it plays more evenly than my es88 . A little stiffer in the keys, a good thing imho. knobs and buttons, oh my! Faders are short through, but don't feel too crappy. I haven't messed with any of the software stuff, I may not.

I couldn't find any dimensions on line. 
so for inquiring minds, it's 50 1/4"x11"x"2 1/2.


----------



## Walid F.

reddognoyz @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Nektar LX88 in da house.
> 
> I just set it up. I think it plays more evenly than my es88 . A little stiffer in the keys, a good thing imho. knobs and buttons, oh my! Faders are short through, but don't feel too crappy. I haven't messed with any of the software stuff, I may not.
> 
> I couldn't find any dimensions on line.
> so for inquiring minds, it's 50 1/4"x11"x"2 1/2.



Cool! Will check it out tomorrow or the day after. Let us know more what you think. 

And dear lord, when will you guys convert into metric? All of these " ' 1/4 3/8 seem unnecessary.  10's all the way baby!

W.


----------



## Rex282

Thanks this thread just save my sanity….(for now).My Axiom 49 had been doing okay (normal glitchyness for keyboards) then I got more more librarys and it has gone mad!(along with me).

At first I thought is my ineptness with the new libraries scripting,settings etc(which it is also ) BUT it seems the Axiom has been the main culprit.For example my sustain pedal would unlatch before then it was only latch.I thought it was the pedal which has an latch /unlatch switch.However the switch didn’t make a difference so I got a new sustain pedal..still won’t unlatch!The modwheel sends out reset values randomly. One of my faders is stuck permanently on CC7.Presets reset….etc etc….. If there are solutions for these problems I’d love to hear them(M-Audio forum has been no help so far) till then I’m blaming it on the Axiom! 

It’s incredible how the most critical piece of hardware for composing with librarys is general so poor.If my guitar would go in and out of tune for no reason or switched channels on my amp at random I’d burn it in effigy!The downside of this thread is I don’t see much hope even in an expensive rig.Is there anything that just “works” okay.I’m not ready to trade up for more headaches.

I hope someone pipes up with the holy grail of controllers but I have feeling there is still just utility cups with cracks in them.Please prove me wrong and pessimistic.

Rex"trying to keep my hair"282


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen

Rex282 @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Thanks this thread just save my sanity….(for now).My Axiom 49 had been doing okay (normal glitchyness for keyboards) then I got more more librarys and it has gone mad!(along with me).
> 
> At first I thought is my ineptness with the new libraries scripting,settings etc(which it is also ) BUT it seems the Axiom has been the main culprit.For example my sustain pedal would unlatch before then it was only latch.I thought it was the pedal which has an latch /unlatch switch.However the switch didn’t make a difference so I got a new sustain pedal..still won’t unlatch!The modwheel sends out reset values randomly. One of my faders is stuck permanently on CC7.Presets reset….etc etc….. If there are solutions for these problems I’d love to hear them(M-Audio forum has been no help so far) till then I’m blaming it on the Axiom!
> 
> It’s incredible how the most critical piece of hardware for composing with librarys is general so poor.If my guitar would go in and out of tune for no reason or switched channels on my amp at random I’d burn it in effigy!The downside of this thread is I don’t see much hope even in an expensive rig.Is there anything that just “works” okay.I’m not ready to trade up for more headaches.
> 
> I hope someone pipes up with the holy grail of controllers but I have feeling there is still just utility cups with cracks in them.Please prove me wrong and pessimistic.
> 
> Rex"trying to keep my hair"282



Perhaps the holy grail of controllers is in digital stage pianos which I think tend to be a lot more durable and better built. The downside is that they are significantly more expensive considering all the features that many of them offer and tend to be bulky.


----------



## artsoundz

reddognoyz @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Nektar LX88 in da house.
> 
> I just set it up. I think it plays more evenly than my es88 . A little stiffer in the keys, a good thing imho. knobs and buttons, oh my! Faders are short through, but don't feel too crappy. I haven't messed with any of the software stuff, I may not.
> 
> I couldn't find any dimensions on line.
> so for inquiring minds, it's 50 1/4"x11"x"2 1/2.



Hey Stuart,
That's encouraging. Mine will be here Thursday. Also, love the dimensions particularly 2 1/2" height. 
Have you sussed out the velocities? 1-127 show up ok in your daw? Thanks.


----------



## Rex282

Any thoughts on a Korg K61P 61.


----------



## snowleopard

reddognoyz @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Nektar LX88 in da house.
> I just set it up. I think it plays more evenly than my es88 . A little stiffer in the keys, a good thing imho. knobs and buttons, oh my! Faders are short through, but don't feel too crappy.


Thanks for adding to the conversation. No aftertouch, so it's out for me as that's a must.


----------



## apessino

Dryden.Chambers @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Anyone tried the 88 note Arturia ?



Just bought it two weeks ago. I finally realized I have been wasting my time all these years with "semi weighted" keys. If you can play this controller blows everything I have tried out of the water.

I cannot believe the value this keyboard gives for the money - amazing quality of construction, great features and content. It is possibly the best looking instrument in my studio. :mrgreen: The wood, the blue LEDs, I am genuinely impressed by how well put together this is. The two attachments that come with it (stand and extended pad for laptop/iPad) are also brilliant. And, it is LIGHT, like... half the weight of your typical 88 key piano-action controller.

Setup is instant (USB cable, done) and the programming software that comes with it makes it trivial and intuitive to remap any of the multitude of faders/controllers/buttons/etc. It is also easy to do from the keyboard itself, but the little control software makes it truly a 2 second process; unless you are using the board without a computer it is a no brainer and makes the board much more usable to me.

Some people ion reviews complained about the key action being a bit "loud" (as in, the keys themselves making a lot of noise). Not sure what they were smoking... maybe they just need a better stand? Anyhow, the Fatar keybed is great - action is as good as the best out there, not any louder than any of the other keyboards using similar keybeds out there. I am never touching a silly "semi weighted" thing again... :mrgreen: 

At the end, I think this is one of the best purchases I have ever made, I cannot think of anything even costing twice as much offering the same quality, usability and beauty.

Highest recommendation here! =o

EDIT: 

Keyboard magazine review goes into detail:

http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/ar ... ndle/50778


----------



## JohnG

is that the Arturia Keylab88?


----------



## apessino

JohnG @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> is that the Arturia Keylab88?



Indeed - this one, got it from Sweetwater two weeks ago:

http://www.arturia.com/products/hybrid-synths/keylab88


----------



## JohnG

ty


----------



## Walid F.

apessino @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> I am never touching a silly "semi weighted" thing again... :mrgreen:



But if you don't want heavy piano action, just want a good in between synth action and piano action, then no heavy weighted keyboard will solve that. I for example want more of a synth action, but still some thickness to the keys so I hope the LX88 has some nice action.

W.


----------



## snowleopard

That's my dilemma. I can play a piano (somewhat!). But the fact is that some 90% of the sounds I play aren't really percussive in nature, and whenever I've played full weighted/hammer action keyboards, I find the nuance in most synth sounds very challenging to capture. 

Tell me this keyboard is so sensitive to playing sounds like pads, strings, soft horns, etc, that it's as good as any semi-weighted you've used in this regard, and I'll definitely consider it.

From the Keyboard review. This is what concerns me: 



> My only nitpick is with the keyboard velocity curve parameter; throughout its 11 settings, I detected a difference in keyboard response at the three highest settings (desirable), but not much change at the lower settings.



If I understand correctly, by higher, he means "faster keystrike". Which is the opposite of what I'm seeking. What I would thus be looking for is greater sensitivity in the lower/slower key action.


----------



## apessino

I cannot tell you that because I don't know how you play... 

For me, the problem is exactly the opposite - I can play a semi-weighted keyboard but I find it more challenging to be expressive with it because the keys do not give feedback as to the amount of pressure one is applying - that is precisely why consistent resistance is so important. Without it the playing becomes basically on/off, cuz you just can't tell. 

Unweighted keys make sense when dynamics are independent of velocity (i.e. an organ or a synth where you modulate with a pedal) but make it difficult to play expressively IF you want dynamics to be predictably correlated to velocity (also consider that velocity is just a simplification of the control afforded by a fully mechanical hammer).

Of course if one does not have enough piano technique then the weight becomes an obstacle to performance, in which case light keys are "easier to trigger" and can be played with less effort, but more expressive they should not be, as far as I can tell. :D


----------



## Walid F.

apessino @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> things



It's for sure about personal preference. I love heavy-weighted, piano action keys but for most of my libraries I don't really want that fully weighted feel. It's hard to play super fast and accurate percussive things on weighted keybed because the keys won't even make it back up before you need to press them again (unavoidable). Same goes with many other things that you really like very soft keys that responds exactly how you attack them.

If you think semiweight/no-weight is simply on-off, then that's your preference and you would turn to fully weighted. I however, have always loved no-weights and semiweighted for my MIDI input, so I go that route.

There is no definite answer to this, all about personal prefs. To you, unweighted make no sense if you want velocity, to me that's not true. Had synths and keyboards since I was 5 years old, and really love synth action with velocity.  And when I want to play piano... ? I play the piano!

W.


----------



## artsoundz

Fyi- just received my Nektar Impact 88. 
Love it. Love the keybed. It's everything I hoped for with regard to the way it plays. Very similar to novation feel but smoother.
I dont mind the sliders at all. However, they are not crucial to my work as I use other cc input controls generally. But the sliders and knobs are as good as any and Ive tried all boards except the VAX. 
Also, it spits out all velocitys just fine. The velocity reonse curves are adequate but usually VI's have their own velocity response secrion so between the nektar and proprietary Vi's , it's transparent. 
In my ideal world, I would choose doepfer and this board. But this will work great until next year when the VAX comes out. 
Bottom line- unbeatable bargain at 3 bills. 
Oh btw- there is about 10 or 11" of spare space to the far right for a laptop or ipad. It's exactly the area of an ipad. Super handy.


----------



## Walid F.

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Fyi- just received my Nektar Impact 88.
> Love it. Love the keybed. It's everything I hoped for with regard to the way it plays. Very similar to novation feel but smoother.
> I dont mind the sliders at all. However, they are not crucial to my work as I use other cc input controls generally. But the sliders and knobs are as good as any and Ive tried all boards except the VAX.
> Also, it spits out all velocitys just fine. The velocity reonse curves are adequate but usually VI's have their own velocity response secrion so between the nektar and proprietary Vi's , it's transparent.
> In my ideal world, I would choose doepfer and this board. But this will work great until next year when the VAX comes out.
> Bottom line- unbeatable bargain at 3 bills.
> Oh btw- there is about 10 or 11" of spare space to the far right for a laptop or ipad. It's exactly the area of an ipad. Super handy.



Very nice. Thanks for that!

W.


----------



## artsoundz

You are welcome but I want to make clear that I, like most, much prefer a weighted board for piano. I have high hopes for the VAX next year but am really happy my the keybed on my casio.


----------



## Walid F.

artsoundz @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> You are welcome but I want to make clear that I, like most, much prefer a weighted board for piano. I have high hopes for the VAX next year but am really happy my the keybed on my casio.



Yep, many are. I'm not. I much prefer something more like synth action for MIDI stuff!

W.

Edit: Oh wait, "for piano" - you mean actual piano sound? Then yeah of course, weighted is best. But how often do I use piano... 5% of the time? Tops! The rest are pads, brass, strings, modulating stuff, automating, synths, all kinds of things really.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen

Can someone who has the LX88 confirm the height of it? In Sweetwater it says that its 6.3" but the LX61 is only 3" so I'm wondering if it really is twice as tall. I can't see any difference in pictures. The reason that I ask is that I need something that can fit under my desk and having it go 6.3" down might make it a bit tight for leg room. I'm assuming that the height measurements includes the height of the knobs.


----------



## Walid F.

Gerhard Westphalen @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> Can someone who has the LX88 confirm the height of it? In Sweetwater it says that its 6.3" but the LX61 is only 3" so I'm wondering if it really is twice as tall. I can't see any difference in pictures. The reason that I ask is that I need something that can fit under my desk and having it go 6.3" down might make it a bit tight for leg room. I'm assuming that the height measurements includes the height of the knobs.



Courtesy of reddognoyz: 50 1/4"x11"x"2 1/2 

And just ordered one of these babies. Will try it out as soon as it arrives - I'm sure I'll dig it. 

W.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen

Walid F. @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Gerhard Westphalen @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone who has the LX88 confirm the height of it? In Sweetwater it says that its 6.3" but the LX61 is only 3" so I'm wondering if it really is twice as tall. I can't see any difference in pictures. The reason that I ask is that I need something that can fit under my desk and having it go 6.3" down might make it a bit tight for leg room. I'm assuming that the height measurements includes the height of the knobs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy of reddognoyz: 50 1/4"x11"x"2 1/2
> 
> And just ordered one of these babies. Will try it out as soon as it arrives - I'm sure I'll dig it.
> 
> W.
Click to expand...


Woops. How did I miss that!?

Strange that Sweetwater reports such a different height :?


----------



## Piano & Strings

Gerhard Westphalen @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Walid F. @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gerhard Westphalen @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can someone who has the LX88 confirm the height of it? In Sweetwater it says that its 6.3" but the LX61 is only 3" so I'm wondering if it really is twice as tall. I can't see any difference in pictures. The reason that I ask is that I need something that can fit under my desk and having it go 6.3" down might make it a bit tight for leg room. I'm assuming that the height measurements includes the height of the knobs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy of reddognoyz: 50 1/4"x11"x"2 1/2
> 
> And just ordered one of these babies. Will try it out as soon as it arrives - I'm sure I'll dig it.
> 
> W.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Woops. How did I miss that!?
> 
> Strange that Sweetwater reports such a different height :?
Click to expand...


I was fooled by the sweetwater height listed too! I was looking at the photo, thinking that it really didn't look tall at all! Really thinking I'll pick up one of these.


----------



## artsoundz

You should. you can always return it . At the price point, it's very do-able. 
I love the 2 1\2" height as well as the weight. super lite but the whole board feels very solid and substantial . 

BTW- faders-after spending several hours with it, I find the faders WAY better than anything Ive had previous to this board. They move like pro faders. very solid. not wiggly like most. I've very often lost the fader tops on maudio, novation etc. 
On the Nektar, I can't remove them. solid.


----------



## Piano & Strings

i think someone asked already, but has anyone tested the velocity response on every key, to see if it can kick out the whole range 0-127? Might last two Controllers definately needed velocity scaling to get over the 115 hump lol


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> You should. you can always return it . At the price point, it's very do-able.
> I love the 2 1\2" height as well as the weight. super lite but the whole board feels very solid and substantial .
> 
> BTW- faders-after spending several hours with it, I find the faders WAY better than anything Ive had previous to this board. They move like pro faders. very solid. not wiggly like most. I've very often lost the fader tops on maudio, novation etc.
> On the Nektar, I can't remove them. solid.



Does the 2 1/2" include the height of the knobs?


----------



## artsoundz

Hey Gerhard,
No- add 3/4"


----------



## snowleopard

Hmmmm. How do you delete a post?


----------



## snowleopard

Here is why I love this place, and you guys. 

Re: Arturia's new Keylab 88



Maestro77 @ Wed Feb 25 said:


> I played around with this recently at a retail store. It was the worst keybed I've ever seen. Keys were moving left and right and felt like they could break off any moment. Very flimsy build. Was very disappointed.





apessino @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> Just bought it two weeks ago...If you can play, this controller blows everything I have tried out of the water.
> 
> I cannot believe the value this keyboard gives for the money - amazing quality of construction, great features and content.... At the end, I think this is one of the best purchases I have ever made, I cannot think of anything even costing twice as much offering the same quality, usability and beauty...Highest recommendation here!


----------



## Simon Ravn

I have been in need of a new keyboard for ages. I have an aging Novation SL61, where the faders etc have begun sending out random data.

Until something better turns up I am tempted by the Nektar - you guys who now have it, have you tested the evenness of the velocity response across the keys? E.g. black keys vs white keys, and how do you feel it responds to your playing? Also, is it capable of sensing all 127 velocities? Would be great to get some impressions on this, thanks! 8)


----------



## Walid F.

Simon Ravn @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> I have been in need of a new keyboard for ages. I have an aging Novation SL61, where the faders etc have begun sending out random data.
> 
> Until something better turns up I am tempted by the Nektar - you guys who now have it, have you tested the evenness of the velocity response across the keys? E.g. black keys vs white keys, and how do you feel it responds to your playing? Also, is it capable of sensing all 127 velocities? Would be great to get some impressions on this, thanks! 8)



Having tried many of these and simply want something like you, I'll make sure I will write an extensive review on it here once it arrives next week. Velocity response, feel of keys, slider/knob feel and build, and more. Will probably post a new thread about it then for others to read, as it's quite a sought after request this 88 key semiweighted thing with programmability.

W.


----------



## Piano & Strings

Walid F. @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Thu Mar 05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been in need of a new keyboard for ages. I have an aging Novation SL61, where the faders etc have begun sending out random data.
> 
> Until something better turns up I am tempted by the Nektar - you guys who now have it, have you tested the evenness of the velocity response across the keys? E.g. black keys vs white keys, and how do you feel it responds to your playing? Also, is it capable of sensing all 127 velocities? Would be great to get some impressions on this, thanks! 8)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having tried many of these and simply want something like you, I'll make sure I will write an extensive review on it here once it arrives next week. Velocity response, feel of keys, slider/knob feel and build, and more. Will probably post a new thread about it then for others to read, as it's quite a sought after request this 88 key semiweighted thing with programmability.
> 
> W.
Click to expand...


Thanks Walid! I look forward to reading this... sounding like the Holy Grail solution for me right now haha


----------



## Piano & Strings

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> You should. you can always return it . At the price point, it's very do-able.
> I love the 2 1\2" height as well as the weight. super lite but the whole board feels very solid and substantial .
> 
> BTW- faders-after spending several hours with it, I find the faders WAY better than anything Ive had previous to this board. They move like pro faders. very solid. not wiggly like most. I've very often lost the fader tops on maudio, novation etc.
> On the Nektar, I can't remove them. solid.



Artsoundz: I'm curious, are the keys more matte in appearance or more shiny? I can't tell from the photos, but hoping they are less shiny and glossy than my Oxygen 61! Such a damn cheap feel! Lol


----------



## snowleopard

Keep in mind that the Nektar has no aftertouch, unlike your Novation. So if are accustomed to using aftertouch, you'll be out of luck.


----------



## Walid F.

snowleopard @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> Keep in mind that the Nektar has no aftertouch, unlike your Novation. So if are accustomed to using aftertouch, you'll be out of luck.



When is aftertouch used, if you exclude -all- synths? I'm mostly thinking about sample libraries. I have never used aftertouch, and it seems to me a thing for synthesizers and those kinds of plugins only?

W.


----------



## snowleopard

Vibrato or all sorts of expressive control can be used with AT. Let's say you're playing a string section with both hands, and you are using your foot controller to alter volume...

Also, keep in mind that I am no traditionalist. I do not try to create mock-ups of any sort. So I may take a sample of, say, a French Horn. And use AT to cause it to distort, detune, or increase reverb, or all sorts of things.


----------



## Walid F.

snowleopard @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> Vibrato or all sorts of expressive control can be used with AT. Let's say you're playing a string section with both hands, and you are using your foot controller to alter volume...
> 
> Also, keep in mind that I am no traditionalist. I do not try to create mock-ups of any sort. So I may take a sample of, say, a French Horn. And use AT to cause it to distort, detune, or increase reverb, or all sorts of things.



So if vibrato is mapped to say.. CC22, a MIDI keyboard with AT could control that? It can control any CC through mapping? But vibrato and expression and those, they start from 0 or 127 and then go either up or down. I don't really understand where AT would go from.

W.


----------



## eidrahmusic

I had originally been looking at the Arturia Keylab 88 and got put off by Maestro's negative review of it. I wasn't too sure what I wanted, semi weighted or full, as I am a piano player but wasn't sure if the heavier keys would be a problem when dealing with all sorts of sample libraries.

The Nektar was then my new choice, but shops here in the UK (or certainly Scotland) don't seem to have it in stock yet and the estimated date keeps getting delayed daily!

Now with the more recent, more positive reviews of the Arturia, I'm back to looking at it! I know they're really different things, and the Arturia is a lot more expensive (although a model with the included Piano libraries does bring the keyboard's price down to a very similar level to the Nektar) so I'm stuck until I get a chance to actually try both and get a feel for them. Currently on a Novation Launchkey which hasn't even lasted a year before issues arose!


----------



## apessino

snowleopard @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> Here is why I love this place, and you guys.
> 
> Re: Arturia's new Keylab 88
> 
> 
> 
> Maestro77 @ Wed Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I played around with this recently at a retail store. It was the worst keybed I've ever seen. Keys were moving left and right and felt like they could break off any moment. Very flimsy build. Was very disappointed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apessino @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just bought it two weeks ago...If you can play, this controller blows everything I have tried out of the water.
> 
> I cannot believe the value this keyboard gives for the money - amazing quality of construction, great features and content.... At the end, I think this is one of the best purchases I have ever made, I cannot think of anything even costing twice as much offering the same quality, usability and beauty...Highest recommendation here!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Well, I don't know what happened to the unit he tested but I have it and I can assure you that there is ZERO key movement on the Keylab 88 - the whole thing feels as solid as a rock, in spite of being so much lighter than most. 

Again, it is a Fatar keybed, a high quality one, and the same damn thing that 90% of high end keyboards use. It is as fine as you are going to get. I have a very heavy hand on the piano and this feels just fine to me and it seems like it can take a beating.

The rest of the unit (controllers, wheels, pads, casing, etc.) is several notches above the majority of what else is there. It feels "premium" and well engineered, and the whole unit is made of metal and wood, not cheap plastic like controllers that cost only a few dollars less. I have a Nektar P6 - if you think the Keylab is "flimsly" then plastic units which physically bend while being played reasonably are not going to impress you much. 8) 

You are welcome to come and try mine if you pass by So Cal... Anyhow, I sound like I am sponsored by Arturia - I am not, I promise. :mrgreen:


----------



## Simon Ravn

snowleopard @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> Keep in mind that the Nektar has no aftertouch, unlike your Novation. So if are accustomed to using aftertouch, you'll be out of luck.



Yeah that's a bummer. I don't use it for orch. libraries, but for some synth patches it is very useful. Also it doesn't have an expression pedal port :roll:


----------



## Simon Ravn

The Arturia says "hammer action". How do you think it feels, apessino? More like a piano than a synth? I 100% prefer synth feel and can't use a piano feel for most of the stuff I do, unfortunately. It's simply too slow and heavy.


----------



## AC986

I had an 88 note weighted Korg quite a few years ago and the action on that was a wrist breaker.

Part of the problem for untrained keyboard players is they have no real technique, and have not built up the muscles in their hands and wrists correctly. They let their wrists droop under the keyboard or under their fingers, while playing, for instance. They don't play on the pads of their fingers etc.

This is why a weighted keyboard is unsuitable most of the time for the majority of people that use a DAW.


----------



## IFM

I wish it were possible to demo one for a weekend. I love the features of the Arturia but when I tested it at NAMM I immediately didn't like what felt like heavy action. 

was trained on piano and do use a weighted synth (QS8.1) and has been the perfect balance for me for many years. It is showing its age as it is noisy to play but still gets the job done. 

I tried the Nektar and it was decent, especially for the price! I just worry that the Arturia would not work well for doing all the orchestral sim and synth stuff I do. I'm just surprised they went with such a piano feel when they are known for analog synths. 

I do have the Arturia 25 key version and love it so they are built fairly well.

Chris


----------



## IFM

Simon Ravn @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> The Arturia says "hammer action". How do you think it feels, apessino? More like a piano than a synth? I 100% prefer synth feel and can't use a piano feel for most of the stuff I do, unfortunately. It's simply too slow and heavy.



Very much a piano when you play on the Arturia.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Thanks guys - doesn't bode well though. Maybe I should try the Nektar and see if it's OK - afterall it's not a big investment and it could be replaced pretty quickly.


----------



## chimuelo

Break down and buy the Physis K4 or K4 EX.
I like the semi weighted action, response from 0-127 is great as I use keyswitches for anything too low and high.
AT is just right for me and who ever you are, what ever you're personal preferences are, just alter anything and everything on one of these to what you like.
Totally customizable.

You just need to drop the bundled deals and get one w/o the bench and case and cheap headphones mic unless you have kids or nephews you don't like much.


----------



## snowleopard

Thanks for the input Chim. All the Physis K4 are fully weighted piano keys, no? 

One thing I do like about the forthcoming VAX is this entry on the Kickstarter page: 



> The key action is critical to every musician and the new VAX offers a weighted hammer action but with the return speed of a fast synth action. The important improvement to the action, compared with the original VAX77, is that the hammer releases the keyweight at the bottom of the keystroke, similar to a grand piano. It won't "wear you out" after hours of playing.



I do find it strange that the keyboard comes in 2 octave increments, only. So you can have 72 keys, or 96 keys, but 88 isn't an option. I do love the poly aftertouch though.


----------



## Simon Ravn

chimuelo @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> Break down and buy the Physis K4 or K4 EX.
> I like the semi weighted action, response from 0-127 is great as I use keyswitches for anything too low and high.
> AT is just right for me and who ever you are, what ever you're personal preferences are, just alter anything and everything on one of these to what you like.
> Totally customizable.
> 
> You just need to drop the bundled deals and get one w/o the bench and case and cheap headphones mic unless you have kids or nephews you don't like much.



Right - if that one really has a great (synth-like) feel, I would buy it, even though it is completely overkill with built in sounds, I/O I don't need at all etc. But if it was the "perfect" keyboard, I could live with that extra expense. Don't know if there is anywhere in my country where I can try this out though. Will investigate, thx for the suggestion. Still built in Italy though *shiver* 8)


----------



## reddognoyz

Marc Filmer @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> i think someone asked already, but has anyone tested the velocity response on every key, to see if it can kick out the whole range 0-127? Might last two Controllers definately needed velocity scaling to get over the 115 hump lol




yea..... well you get what you pay for. this $299 controller is better than the $199 ks88, but getting a reliable high velocity response is pretty hit and miss for me.


----------



## Piano & Strings

reddognoyz @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> Marc Filmer @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i think someone asked already, but has anyone tested the velocity response on every key, to see if it can kick out the whole range 0-127? Might last two Controllers definately needed velocity scaling to get over the 115 hump lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yea..... well you get what you pay for. this $299 controller is better than the $199 ks88, but getting a reliable high velocity response is pretty hit and miss for me.
Click to expand...


I believe that for sure. Actually, I suddenly remembered a happy benefit of velocity scaling: Being that I'm not so much of a dramatic Beethoven type on the keys, velocity scaling actually helps me trigger the top velocity samples with less effort, so perhaps missing those upper 12 midi velocity increments is not such a bad thing. What I'm really after is a controller that can produce 128 midi velocities, so I can be 1 louder than everyone else _-)


----------



## apessino

Simon Ravn @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> The Arturia says "hammer action". How do you think it feels, apessino? More like a piano than a synth? I 100% prefer synth feel and can't use a piano feel for most of the stuff I do, unfortunately. It's simply too slow and heavy.



Yup, as others have said it is heavy - it is concert piano heavy, even. For me it is perfect, but if what you are after is "synth action" then this is not going to be what you want.


----------



## Guy Rowland

artsoundz @ Thu Mar 05 said:


> You should. you can always return it . At the price point, it's very do-able.
> I love the 2 1\2" height as well as the weight. super lite but the whole board feels very solid and substantial .
> 
> BTW- faders-after spending several hours with it, I find the faders WAY better than anything Ive had previous to this board. They move like pro faders. very solid. not wiggly like most. I've very often lost the fader tops on maudio, novation etc.
> On the Nektar, I can't remove them. solid.



How are the wheels?


----------



## germancomponist

Believe me or not: In the very past I had a Casio VZ 1 synth, and this keyboard with it's 3 wheels was excellent for playing synth sounds and strings. I too don't like it to play strings with weighted keys ... .


----------



## JohnG

A lot of guys recommend Casio. The PX5-S has been mentioned.


----------



## brett

I'd love to demo a Doepfer keyboard but out here in Oz they are close to non-existent

My 2nd hand Kurzweil PC3 (which I otherwise love) has aftertouch and mod wheel 'issues' and the only repairer in town has a turnaround time of ~6 months. Effing disaster


----------



## chimuelo

The Casio PX-5S is a step up from the older PX-3S which I used for years after the death of my last M Audio KS-88. Bought 6 of those sold 3, kept 3, killed 3.

PX-5S is a true 4 zone controller and while some folks like the internal sounds, guys like us don't really need them, but the downfall of the PX-5S is the silly Orca the Whale colors. 

I never had such an excellent controller like the Physis K4 though.
Folks need to know that each Performance can use 4 x times the amount of controllers (9 x 9) that are knobs/sliders/faders, with each Performance holding 4 x separate scenes. 128 of these performances are available.

Having custom scripts made for me by Evil Dragon as we speak. They can be used to take the Keyswitches off of the controller, where I then assign a pair of FS-6 Dual Switches, a sustain, another FC4 switch and 2 x FCV 100 CV controllers that double as Expression since they each have dual 1/4" outs.
Pretty impressive.

Also worth noting on Kontakts Session Horns, they hard wired Do-iTs and Falls to the PBend wheel which is a great idea for 1 handed players.
I cannot take my hands off of my keyboards as I have way too many instruments to cover, so in the Physis K4 I simply applied the PBend to 1 of the FS-6 switches, started the value at 64 which means no PBend, then when I step on it the value decreases down to 30, which is the perfect amount of Fall.
To even add more fun you can take any switch, reverse it, toggle it, any controller for that matter. This is a God send for live cats.

I have applause for the very highest key, even have Curly from the 3 stooges going......"Nyah-h-h-h-h-" when chicks with large chi-chi's approach the stage.
SFX everywhere at a seconds notice....


----------



## G.R. Baumann

chimuelo @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> I have applause for the very highest key, even have Curly from the 3 stooges going......"Nyah-h-h-h-h-" when chicks with large chi-chi's approach the stage.SFX everywhere at a seconds notice....



The good man apparently has quite some fun with his line of work. :lol: =o


----------



## NYC Composer

chimuelo @ Fri Mar 06 said:


> The Casio PX-5S is a step up from the older PX-3S which I used for years after the death of my last M Audio KS-88. Bought 6 of those sold 3, kept 3, killed 3.
> 
> PX-5S is a true 4 zone controller and while some folks like the internal sounds, guys like us don't really need them, but the downfall of the PX-5S is the silly Orca the Whale colors.
> 
> I never had such an excellent controller like the Physis K4 though.
> Folks need to know that each Performance can use 4 x times the amount of controllers (9 x 9) that are knobs/sliders/faders, with each Performance holding 4 x separate scenes. 128 of these performances are available.
> 
> Having custom scripts made for me by Evil Dragon as we speak. They can be used to take the Keyswitches off of the controller, where I then assign a pair of FS-6 Dual Switches, a sustain, another FC4 switch and 2 x FCV 100 CV controllers that double as Expression since they each have dual 1/4" outs.
> Pretty impressive.
> 
> Also worth noting on Kontakts Session Horns, they hard wired Do-iTs and Falls to the PBend wheel which is a great idea for 1 handed players.
> I cannot take my hands off of my keyboards as I have way too many instruments to cover, so in the Physis K4 I simply applied the PBend to 1 of the FS-6 switches, started the value at 64 which means no PBend, then when I step on it the value decreases down to 30, which is the perfect amount of Fall.
> To even add more fun you can take any switch, reverse it, toggle it, any controller for that matter. This is a God send for live cats.
> 
> I have applause for the very highest key, even have Curly from the 3 stooges going......"Nyah-h-h-h-h-" when chicks with large chi-chi's approach the stage.
> SFX everywhere at a seconds notice....



I gotta check your act someday dude. You are the Real Deal Holyfield on those controllers.


----------



## JohnG

Finally got to test the Doepfer LMK2+ tonight and bought one. Very straightforward machine. 

What I like:

1. I like the keyboard feel, which is a big improvement over my ancient battle-axe, whose squeaks and thumps I will not miss,

2. Not paying for superfluous sounds that I already have,

3. Has built-in mod wheel, pitch bend and accommodates both damper and continuous pedal, and

...Thats it!

Good for the next decade.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen

JohnG @ Mon Mar 23 said:


> Finally got to test the Doepfer LMK2+ tonight and bought one. Very straightforward machine.
> 
> What I like:
> 
> 1. I like the keyboard feel, which is a big improvement over my ancient battle-axe, whose squeaks and thumps I will not miss,
> 
> 2. Not paying for superfluous sounds that I already have,
> 
> 3. Has built-in mod wheel, pitch bend and accommodates both damper and continuous pedal, and
> 
> ...Thats it!
> 
> Good for the next decade.



How do you plan to "install" it in your studio, if you don't mind me asking? On a stand with it under your desk? Sitting on top of your desk? Having it built into your desk?


----------



## Maestro77

JohnG, where did you find one for sale here in LA?


----------



## pinki

artsoundz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> You should. you can always return it . At the price point, it's very do-able.
> I love the 2 1\2" height as well as the weight. super lite but the whole board feels very solid and substantial .
> 
> BTW- faders-after spending several hours with it, I find the faders WAY better than anything Ive had previous to this board. They move like pro faders. very solid. not wiggly like most. I've very often lost the fader tops on maudio, novation etc.
> On the Nektar, I can't remove them. solid.



Wow that shows what a childish ignoramus you are.


----------



## NYC Composer

Charming.

Anyway, I'm so annoyed that my M Audio Keystation Pro 88 has ONE MIDI sensor that went out, because the cost to fix it is more than it's worth. What a huge thing to have to junk for one little fault. I guess I played D3 too often  

Have not found one Arturia or Nektar to try in Manhattan, Dallas or Savannah. Weird. Plenty o' Casios, Yamahas, Rolands...

123 Music has some good deals on the Arturia. I'm almost ready to throw in the towel and buy one unplayed, pay the shipping cost back if unsatisfied.


----------



## JohnG

hi -- one change -- went back and got the LMK4+ instead because the continuous controller footswitch on the LMK2+ only accommodates cc7 and I like using it for cc11. I know there are software fixes for this but I don't want to fiddle with that all the time and -- anyway got the LMK4.

So in answer to questions -- it's available in LA only from analoguehaven.com They are in Santa Monica quite near Hans Z's studios, and you can email [email protected] Appointments only, but they are nice enough if you can get in touch. They sell out quickly and just got a shipment.

In answer to the question about desk placement I have mine sitting up too high on my desk, which is stupid but not sure when I will get around to changing the setup.

Keyboard is a nice feel -- not silent but ok. Allegedly Doepfer has a patent in process in Germany for the alterations they make to the standard Fatar keyboard but I didn't research to confirm that one.


----------



## Kejero

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 25 said:


> [...] on the Arturia. I'm almost ready to throw in the towel and buy one unplayed, pay the shipping cost back if unsatisfied.



I was planning on getting it but not until I'd tried one. As others have said the keys are very heavy. Way too heavy as far as I'm concerned, felt very clunky to me and not even remotely like any real piano I've ever played. But ultimately it's a matter of taste.


----------



## NYC Composer

Kejero @ Wed Mar 25 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...] on the Arturia. I'm almost ready to throw in the towel and buy one unplayed, pay the shipping cost back if unsatisfied.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning on getting it but not until I'd tried one. As others have said the keys are very heavy. Way too heavy as far as I'm concerned, felt very clunky to me and not even remotely like any real piano I've ever played. But ultimately it's a matter of taste.
Click to expand...


Have you used hammer action fully weighted controllers in the past?


----------



## Kejero

No (tried out, yes, but never 'used'), so I can't really compare it to other fully weighted controllers. But I have played plenty of pianos, everything between upright and concert grands. So when I'm looking for fully weighted, unless it feels like a real piano, there's really not much point as far as I'm concerned.
During the last 15+ years I've mostly gotten used to a Roland PA-4 weighted keyboard, but I'm not sure how that compares to fatar beds. I'm guessing it feels something between fatar's semi and fully weighted beds.

Edit: Apparently PA-4's are classified as (progressive) fully weighted. So I guess the answer was... yes?


----------



## NYC Composer

Kejero @ Sat Mar 28 said:


> No (tried out, yes, but never 'used'), so I can't really compare it to other fully weighted controllers. But I have played plenty of pianos, everything between upright and concert grands. So when I'm looking for fully weighted, unless it feels like a real piano, there's really not much point as far as I'm concerned.
> During the last 15+ years I've mostly gotten used to a Roland PA-4 weighted keyboard, but I'm not sure how that compares to fatar beds. I'm guessing it feels something between fatar's semi and fully weighted beds.
> 
> Edit: Apparently PA-4's are classified as (progressive) fully weighted. So I guess the answer was... yes?



 

Frustrating, this not being able to play things to try them out.


----------



## Mahlon

NYC Composer @ Sat Mar 28 said:


> Frustrating, this not being able to play things to try them out.



I hear ya. I live in a city kind of known for music, and it's pretty bare. Except for drums and Gibson guitars. If those are your instruments, you're good to go here. Can't imagine how I'd ever test a Doepfer.. And I'd like to. 

Mahlon


----------



## synthpunk

I am surprised a place like Switched On from Austin or Analog Haven or Big City in SoCal have not opened up in Nashville or 48th Street for ie.


----------



## NYC Composer

There's no more 48th Street, dude.


----------



## synthpunk

Im upstate Larry, I knew Sam Ash had bought Manny's but not that most of the others had moved or disappeared. Long fun days skipping school hanging out at music stores on 48th. Good memories.



NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 29 said:


> There's no more 48th Street, dude.


----------



## NYC Composer

aesthete @ Sun Mar 29 said:


> Im upstate Larry, I knew Sam Ash had bought Manny's but not that most of the others had moved or disappeared. Long fun days skipping school hanging out at music stores on 48th. Good memories.
> 
> 
> 
> NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no more 48th Street, dude.
Click to expand...


Sam Ash bought Manny's and moved to 34th street. Guitar Center has two locations in Manhattan, neither on 48th street. B &H is now a major player, also not on 48th street.

I was brought up upstate, and in my early days in NYC, i used to practically live on 48th street. I miss it.


----------



## reddognoyz

I have the nectar. it's just okay, you get what you pay for. it has a couple of velocity curves, neitrher to my liking really. The high velocities are a total crapshoot imho. I'd say it is an improvement over the es88 but not by much.


----------



## Guy Rowland

reddognoyz @ Sun Mar 29 said:


> I have the nectar. it's just okay, you get what you pay for. it has a couple of velocity curves, neitrher to my liking really. The high velocities are a total crapshoot imho. I'd say it is an improvement over the es88 but not by much.



Nuts. Hardly the glowing review I was looking for. I think I have a particularly hopeless es88 right now. I'm thinking of just crossing my fingers and buying another one, ready to return if it's a horror.

Then I might start just punching myself in the face.


----------



## JohnG

btw, although I still like the Doepfer LMK4+, its manual is almost indescribably unhelpful.


----------



## pkm

JohnG @ Sun Mar 29 said:


> btw, although I still like the Doepfer LMK4+, its manual is almost indescribably unhelpful.



Took me a good three hours the first time I tried to program the faders, knobs, and expression pedals on one. It makes sense once you figure out what the heck the manual is trying to say, but until then, its very unintuitive.


----------



## JohnG

pkm @ 29th March 2015 said:


> ...its very unintuitive.



You can say that again!

Also, doesn't appear to work with a Roland RV-5 pedal for continuous control of cc11. sigh


----------



## chimuelo

JG you can use any exp/switch/sus you want with an Ashby adapter.
I always loved the EV5 but have large hooves, so need an FC7 or FCV 100.
Ashby adapters fix that + crappy pedals function better.
Actually have extras and would be happy to send you one for all of your great contributions.


----------



## jaeroe

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 29 said:


> aesthete @ Sun Mar 29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im upstate Larry, I knew Sam Ash had bought Manny's but not that most of the others had moved or disappeared. Long fun days skipping school hanging out at music stores on 48th. Good memories.
> 
> 
> 
> NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no more 48th Street, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sam Ash bought Manny's and moved to 34th street. Guitar Center has two locations in Manhattan, neither on 48th street. B &H is now a major player, also not on 48th street.
> 
> I was brought up upstate, and in my early days in NYC, i used to practically live on 48th street. I miss it.
Click to expand...


Alto has an office in NYC. Good knowledgeable people.


----------



## JohnG

chimuelo @ 29th March 2015 said:


> JG you can use any exp/switch/sus you want with an Ashby adapter.
> I always loved the EV5 but have large hooves, so need an FC7 or FCV 100.
> Ashby adapters fix that + crappy pedals function better.
> Actually have extras and would be happy to send you one for all of your great contributions.



Thanks chin -- will email you.


----------



## chimuelo

Check PM I have new email address since we last communicated.

Right Angle version shown below. Sturdy little adapters too as they barely bend.




upload imagem


----------



## MrVoice

I have read all the inputs from the different threads about a 88 key midicontroller and Im almost decided for a Nektar LX 88.
But I just made a search at Thoman.de and found this Swissonic ControlKey 88 http://www.thomann.de/se/swissonic_controlkey_88.htm

Never saw it or heard of it but almost same price as the Nektar and aftertouch, sustain and expression input. 16 pads etc!?

Does anyone have some information about this company or the actual keyboard Im interested to hear about it.
Cant find any review's or test's anywhere.

/Nick


----------



## SeattleComposer

NYC Composer. I had the same exact thing happen to an M Audio controller. What a drag! I called around to find someone to fix it, but I ended up buying a replacement newest-version Oxygen 88. I am still looking to upgrade, though. I do not love the action or the velocity curve settings.


----------



## Guy Rowland

MrVoice @ Fri Apr 17 said:


> I have read all the inputs from the different threads about a 88 key midicontroller and Im almost decided for a Nektar LX 88.
> But I just made a search at Thoman.de and found this Swissonic ControlKey 88 http://www.thomann.de/se/swissonic_controlkey_88.htm
> 
> Never saw it or heard of it but almost same price as the Nektar and aftertouch, sustain and expression input. 16 pads etc!?
> 
> Does anyone have some information about this company or the actual keyboard Im interested to hear about it.
> Cant find any review's or test's anywhere.
> 
> /Nick



Thanks for the tip off, like you I'm keen to hear more.


----------



## MrVoice

Guy Rowland @ Fri Apr 17 said:


> MrVoice @ Fri Apr 17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have read all the inputs from the different threads about a 88 key midicontroller and Im almost decided for a Nektar LX 88.
> But I just made a search at Thoman.de and found this Swissonic ControlKey 88 http://www.thomann.de/se/swissonic_controlkey_88.htm
> 
> Never saw it or heard of it but almost same price as the Nektar and aftertouch, sustain and expression input. 16 pads etc!?
> 
> Does anyone have some information about this company or the actual keyboard Im interested to hear about it.
> Cant find any review's or test's anywhere.
> 
> /Nick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tip off, like you I'm keen to hear more.
Click to expand...


So far I have found it seems that its Thomans own brand witch they bought from Swissonic in the mid 2000. I have emailed Thoman to send a manual so will update if I get one.

/Nick


----------



## Kaufmanmoon

Just looking at the Keylab88 again. How are people getting on with it and are they enjoying the Pianoteq and synth bundles included?

This guy has obviously had a bad experience with Arturia


----------



## jononotbono

I just keep swinging to and from the Doepfer LMK4+ and the NI Kontrol S88. My partner thinks I should get the NI88. But the she is obsessed with pretty Lights so I think I have to ignore her on this one.


----------



## jononotbono

Kaufmanmoon said:


> Just looking at the Keylab88 again. How are people getting on with it and are they enjoying the Pianoteq and synth bundles included?
> 
> This guy has obviously had a bad experience with Arturia




Well, this video has certainly made me never want to ever buy one of these things. Looks like junk as per most of them. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Jan16

Ha, nice solution: just bang on it with your fist, and it works!
It reminds me of another idiosyncratic solution to a problem with a French car I once leased, a Renault Megane.
It had this annoying habit of shutting down all the dashboard lights unexpectedly so that I was unable to get any readout from the dashboard, including the speed of the car.
I had to guess and just do my best to match the speed of other cars if it happened.
After I informed the dealer of the problem his answer was that Renault was aware of the problem but they had no fix for it; 'just try opening and closing the door'.
And yes, that worked.
Problem is that when you're driving on a busy highway at 80mph opening and closing the door is not advisable.

Anyway, when it comes to hardware I'm very cautious with Arturia.
Problems like this guy has with his (noisy) Keylab88 make me very hesitant when it comes to their new Matrixbrute.
I don't understand why the quality has to be so poor.
I have a KORG T1 I bought in 1990, and although the contacts of the knobs are a bit worn out the keybed still works as well as when I bought it. That's 26 years ago.


----------



## gjelul

I got the Yamaha S90 -- very happy with it.


----------



## Kaufmanmoon

gjelul said:


> I got the Yamaha S90 -- very happy with it.


For that price, I would hope so


----------



## IFM

jononotbono said:


> Well, this video has certainly made me never want to ever buy one of these things. Looks like junk as per most of them. Thanks for sharing.



Well I love mine. This guy clearly got the early one like me where the ribbon cables are not set in very well. I had the same issue with the upper keys and after reading about the ribbon cables decided to crack it open and see for myself. After a little tweaking it has been perfect ever since.

My only gripe has been the lettering coming off. The ink they used reacts with oil from my fingers. Oddly enough it is only certain parts of it. The noise of the keyboard doesn't bother me either.

The NI88 doesn't have enough control for my tastes as I use the faders on the KL88 all the time for normal CC info and the drum pads for key switching...plus the velocity curve it pretty even.


----------



## jononotbono

IFM said:


> Well I love mine. This guy clearly got the early one like me where the ribbon cables are not set in very well. I had the same issue with the upper keys and after reading about the ribbon cables decided to crack it open and see for myself. After a little tweaking it has been perfect ever since.
> 
> My only gripe has been the lettering coming off. The ink they used reacts with oil from my fingers. Oddly enough it is only certain parts of it. The noise of the keyboard doesn't bother me either.
> 
> The NI88 doesn't have enough control for my tastes as I use the faders on the KL88 all the time for normal CC info and the drum pads for key switching...plus the velocity curve it pretty even.




All fair enough. I have just been burnt by so many horrible controllers that a video like this is enough to make me just say NO. haha! But whatever works. I use a Fadermaster Pro so that's all fader duties well and truly taken care of (for me) regardless of what Controller I go for. The Doepfer LMK4+ is the one I am going to get. I need to stop get distracted by pretty lights and start saving.


----------



## samphony

jononotbono said:


> All fair enough. I have just been burnt by so many horrible controllers that a video like this is enough to make me just say NO. haha! But whatever works. I use a Fadermaster Pro so that's all fader duties well and truly taken care of (for me) regardless of what Controller I go for. The Doepfer LMK4+ is the one I am going to get. I need to stop get distracted by pretty lights and start saving.



I have the LMK 4+ since years and I love it. Although I never use the faders on that one so I suggest get the LMK2+ if you don't need the faders. Both use the same keybed


----------



## N.Caffrey

samphony said:


> I have the LMK 4+ since years and I love it. Although I never use the faders on that one so I suggest get the LMK2+ if you don't need the faders. Both use the same keybed



What do you think about the Doepfer PK88 GH?


----------



## AllanH

Keyboard Magazine August of 2016 has a great comparison of many different 88 key controllers.


----------



## Jan16

Here´s the link to the comparison.


----------



## chimuelo

The MK-2 Studio and VAXMIDI are fantastic.
High resolution MIDI is really important to me.

I use my own custom velocity tables on a Physis K4.
4 x Scenes per performance 128 Performances, 512 more on USB.

But I don't want heavy action so the Physis K4 is my choice, and reviews are pretty weak since the instrument is deep and only after a year of use can you fully appreciate the excessive control of MIDI.
If you want just good action and don't care about Grand Piano attempts the K4 is just a monster.

But the MK-2 Studio is for guys who can really dig into doing Classical Piano/Jazz.
Guys I know in France and Germany are happy finally after 20 years of junk with blinking lights.

Waiting for a freind to show me his VAXMIDI.
I'd get one but they're 7 years late on the 88.


----------



## tack

I'm revamping my space to support a full sized keyboard (currently I just have room for a 61 key controller). I'll be in the market for an 88 key controller later this year with the following properties:

Fully weighted keys

Aftertouch support

Mod wheel and pitch bend on the left side
At least 8 configurable faders
Transport controls
Bonus: configurable encoders and buttons
Black color!
Below $2000 USD
This combination has been surprisingly difficult to find.

The Kurzweil PC3K8 looks pretty good but it blows my budget out of the water. Kontrol S88 comes close and looks slick but annoyingly lacks faders.

Any other suggestions?


----------



## AllanH

Take a look at the link above.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of Kurzweil. They make very solid products and I've had Kurzweil since the mid 90s.

Today, I'd get a Forte as it has a great built-in piano and is a great live performance instrument. I have the older PC3LE8 TP40L, that I primary use as a controller.


----------



## tack

AllanH said:


> Take a look at the link above.


I did. And none of them met my criteria. 



AllanH said:


> Today, I'd get a Forte as it has a great built-in piano and is a great live performance instrument.


The Forte looks nice but it also blows the budget and it's really too much piano for me. I really just need a controller, not a sampler. (Though if it was within budget, I could just use it as a controller.)


----------



## 5Lives

Anybody have the NI Kontrol S88? Contemplating upgrading my S61.


----------



## N.Caffrey

I'm undecided whether to buy an Arturia KeyLab 88 or Doepfer PK88 GH


----------



## JohnG

there is a rave review of the Arturia on page 5 of this thread by a user. 

I like my Doepfer LMK4+


----------



## 5Lives

5Lives said:


> Anybody have the NI Kontrol S88? Contemplating upgrading my S61.



Anybody? The Doepfer LMK is pretty pricey and rather wide, but could be another choice. I've gotten pretty accustomed to the touch strips of the NI Kontrol series.


----------



## playz123

5Lives said:


> Anybody? The Doepfer LMK is pretty pricey and rather wide, but could be another choice. I've gotten pretty accustomed to the touch strips of the NI Kontrol series.


Had one since last December, as mentioned earlier in another thread, and am very pleased with my purchase. It does everything I want it to do, and will do even more once the KK software advances. And I agree with "I've gotten pretty accustomed to the touch strips". Wondered about that in the beginning, but concerns were unfounded.


----------



## tack

5Lives said:


> I've gotten pretty accustomed to the touch strips of the NI Kontrol series.


Really, eh? I was curious about those things. I do quite like like the feel riding an actual wheel for dynamics and I have some concerns about, well, what ... not exactly responsiveness, as I imagine that's fine, but I suppose more in terms of feeling a connection. With samples you're already so disconnected from the instruments that have been recorded, it seems like it's all we can do to hold onto input modes that provide even the slightest improvement to a sense of _performing_.

I suppose the S88 is on my short list. It ticks most of the boxes (though I'd need to buy a separate control surface for faders and buttons), so I'm curious to hear from owners, especially now that they ought to have had a good length of time getting to know it.


----------



## Flux

Any opinions on the Physis K series?


----------



## tack

playz123 said:


> Had one since last December, as mentioned earlier in this thread I think, and am very pleased with my purchase.


The keybed is holding up then? No key separation or creaky keys after working it in?

BTW, is it easy to turn off and on those key lights? I imagine most of the time I'd want that off, but occasionally I could see a use-case.


----------



## playz123

tack said:


> The keybed is holding up then? No key separation or creaky keys after working it in?
> 
> BTW, is it easy to turn off and on those key lights? I imagine most of the time I'd want that off, but occasionally I could see a use-case.


The keybed is holding up very well. Again that was something I discussed earlier (will try to find that thread). You can change light colours etc. with separate software (Controller Editor> Assign Tab).... as well as program other things, but I'm not sure why you would want to turn off the LEDs completely. They stay a constant colour for non KK libraries, and mine are set at a cool blue. Then everything changes of course when you use Komplete Kontrol libraries. At first one might be forgiven for thinking 'gimicky', but I doubt one will feel that way after they discover the benefits. One recommendation: download and go through the entire manual if you buy one or even if you are just interested in one. And if you have a dealer nearby that has one, test the action before buying to see if you like it.


----------



## 5Lives

playz123 said:


> Had one since last December, as mentioned earlier in another thread, and am very pleased with my purchase. It does everything I want it to do, and will do even more once the KK software advances. And I agree with "I've gotten pretty accustomed to the touch strips". Wondered about that in the beginning, but concerns were unfounded.



How do you like the keybed?


----------



## tack

playz123 said:


> but I'm not sure why you would want to turn off the LEDs completely


This is going to sound weird, but I do a fair bit of gaming -- in the dark -- and during the cut scenes I like to noodle around on the piano. But while gaming I don't want all the ambient light coming off the keyboard.


----------



## playz123

tack said:


> This is going to sound weird, but I do a fair bit of gaming -- in the dark -- and during the cut scenes I like to noodle around on the piano. But while gaming I don't want all the ambient light coming off the keyboard.


Here's a shot of the colors available. So perhaps you could just choose black??


----------



## playz123

5Lives said:


> How do you like the keybed?


I like it, and have no problems using it. But as i said previously, I am not a concert pianist and over the years have played a lot of different keyboards, so am fairly adept at adjusting. I had an Yamaha S90 as a master keyboard previously and, while it's weighted action was a bit different than the S88 (neither better or worse), it only took me a short while to readjust. Best bet is to see if you can find someone who has one, so you can decide for yourself.


----------



## ChristopherDoucet

snowleopard said:


> Hi friends, my old Kurzweil K2600 I mainly use as a MIDI controller is about dead (motherboard) and perhaps not worth the cost to repair ($700). I may pay to repair it anyway, but it's got me thinking about the market for a new MIDI keyboard controller. Here is what I desire, but it's hard to find:
> 
> 88 keys - I want them semi-weighted. I'm really a synthesist, and hammer action piano keys aren't what I'm looking for. It's not the weight of the keys (I studied piano years ago like others), but the response, so if someone has a great argument for a weighted action keyboard that handles synth sounds really well, I'm all ears.
> 
> Aftertouch - I notice a lot of the 88 key controllers omit this for some reason.
> 
> I'd like to have the mod and pitch wheels to the left and not above the keyboard, but I can't seem to find too many that do this.
> 
> I don't need a lot of sliders or knobs.
> 
> I can't say money is no object, but I don't try to earn a living from music. I have a very good day job, so it's not like I'm a starving musician trying to budget something cheap in. Throw anything at me, regardless of cost. Let me worry about the budget.
> 
> The only controller I've found that seems to fit this is the older StudioLogic VMK 88 (and +), but they are very hard to find, and the newer versions all have hammer action keys.



http://vi-control.net/community/thr...8-key-master-midi-keyboard-usb-version.54375/

This is for sale in the FOR SALE section of the forum, in case this is something you're interested.


----------



## tack

playz123 said:


> One recommendation: download and go through the entire manual if you buy one or even if you are just interested in one.


Having done that (which is very good advice), I see the sustain pedal is discrete on/off only. Expression supports continuous pedals. This is the same as my current Axiom controller. However my Axiom lets me redefine the MIDI CC used by the expression pedal so I can remap it to CC64, making it Just Work as a continuous sustain pedal.

I couldn't find in the manual if this kind of remapping is possible on the Kontrol keyboards. Does anyone happen to know?


----------



## tack

tack said:


> I couldn't find in the manual if this kind of remapping is possible on the Kontrol keyboards. Does anyone happen to know?


Ah, answering my own question: yes, this looks possible. I couldn't find it in the Kontrol manual because it's actually done by the Controller Editor software, and it's in _that_ manual. I went ahead and installed the software and this definitely looks configurable.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

With all of these keyboards, I'm assuming assigning Volume,. expression, vibrato, maybe even keyswitches to the faders is easy for most DAWs? I currently have a Korg Kronos 61 key, and its just not enough. I hate having to octave up and down, reassign keyswitches depending on the range of whatever instrument i'm using, and the Joystick that replaces a traditional modwheel is awful for control.

Posted here asking how to do this in REAPER. I see plenty of videos where people are controlling expression and volume with fadesr on thier keyboards, and on seperate controllers as well.

That Arturia Keylab88 looks really promising for 799...It would be a huge quality of life upgrade for me and then I could just use my Kronos live.


----------



## playz123

tack said:


> Ah, answering my own question: yes, this looks possible. I couldn't find it in the Kontrol manual because it's actually done by the Controller Editor software, and it's in _that_ manual. I went ahead and installed the software and this definitely looks configurable.


Yes, lots one can do with the Controller Editor. NI has done a good job of thinking things through. As I mentioned in a previous post, that little snapshot of the colour selection is also in that Editor. One can set up keyzones, CCs, templates etc., and the Editor is meant to run outside your DAW in standalone mode.


----------



## 5Lives

Anybody have a StudioLogic? The SL88 Grand seems to have the TP40 Wood action but with 3 contact points and aftertouch and is programmable in terms of velocity curve. Seems a little more flexible than the Doepfers (and I think the Doepfers only have TP40GH).


----------



## tokatila

I have been getting frustrated with my semi-weighted P6 (too light of a touch) and don't use 80% of it's capabilities, so I have been thinking about transferring to the fully-weighted keyboard (I play piano). I like P6 for motorized fader and playing synths, but just can't get a expressive touch for velocity sensitive instruments.

I tried Arturia Keylab88 at the store, didn't like it a bit. To me it felt "mushy". And it was supposed to have a nice keybed for a controller...sigh.

So, what I did is that I connected my existing digital piano (Casio Privia PX160) to the computer and bought the Korg nanoKontrol Studio for basic fader functionality. PX160 has a great keybed for the price, but a little too light for me for playing the piano. But as a midi controller the touch is about perfect and miles ahead what you get from dedicated midi keyboards for the price. Privia has exactly the same keybed as Casio stage piano / midi controller px-5s, and if I didn't have the PX160 already, I probably would have considered that one.

I love having 88 keys and the touch is just perfect for me for midi controlling. I can play much much more expressively, and not just a keyed instruments, but the spiccato/staccato string lines too.


----------



## tack

I've decided to order the Kontrol S88 from a nearby music store. (I will drop in today, but I highly doubt they will have a demo unit available to try.) They have a good return policy, so if I don't get on with the keybed -- which is getting extremely mixed reviews (literally ranging from "rubbish" to "sublime") -- then I'll just return it.


----------



## mickeyl

Keep us posted how you feel


----------



## tack

mickeyl said:


> Keep us posted how you feel


Definitely. I'm not one to keep my opinions to myself.


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## 5Lives

I think I'm also leaning towards the NI Kontrol S88 now. I have an S61 and generally speaking, it is pretty great - especially if you use Komplete Kontrol to load your libraries. As more libraries go NKS (like Spitfire Chamber Strings and the Cinematic Studio Series), it is really handy to have the light guide for the keyswitches and have the knobs mapped to the important controls (vibrato, legato / portamento speed, etc.). Finding it works really well with the S61, so as long as the S88 has a decently good keybed (not expecting a grand piano) with good dynamic range for piano parts, I think it is a no brainer for me.

Edit: Ran across a number of posts saying the S88 has the Fatar TP100 action and it is spongy and stiff :( Might be back to the SL88 Grand.


----------



## Hat_Tricky

5Lives said:


> I think I'm also leaning towards the NI Kontrol S88 now. I have an S61 and generally speaking, it is pretty great - especially if you use Komplete Kontrol to load your libraries. As more libraries go NKS (like Spitfire Chamber Strings and the Cinematic Studio Series), it is really handy to have the light guide for the keyswitches and have the knobs mapped to the important controls (vibrato, legato / portamento speed, etc.). Finding it works really well with the S61, so as long as the S88 has a decently good keybed (not expecting a grand piano) with good dynamic range for piano parts, I think it is a no brainer for me.
> 
> Edit: Ran across a number of posts saying the S88 has the Fatar TP100 action and it is spongy and stiff :( Might be back to the SL88 Grand.



This sounds right up my alley. I am struggling bigtime trying to figure out how to map expression/volume and vibrato to my Korg Kronos's faders and knobs. The Kronos joystick is awful for modwheel expression. plus 61 keys is a real bummer with an orchestral template.

I originally was not interested in the NI Kontrols because of the ribbonstrip modwheel, but I think i'd prefer my volume/expression to be on a fader anyway. A real modwheel would be nice, of course.

The keyswitches seem to be huge too - currently I am remapping keyswitchs to right above some libraries ranges (low strings, low WW etc) because my Kronos can only transpose (via menu) down 1 octave (!!) - for other instruments i have to remap the switches to right UNDER its range (hi strings). It's beyhone frustrating, and I spend half the time trying to recall what articulations are where instead of just making music.


----------



## tack

I just got my Kontrol S88. I won't be able to spend proper time with it for a few days, but here are some very initial impressions after half an hour or so:

I think "spongy and stiff" is not altogether an unfair characterization of the action. But it's not entirely unpleasant, to my fingers anyway. No, it doesn't feel like a piano, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for a MIDI controller. I wanted a weighted keybed and this one certainly delivers: the keys have a nontrivial heft to them.
Key surface feel is not bad. The black keys aren't textured, but they have a bit of a matte finish.
I like the action and key texture better than my aging but trusty Yamaha P80. Ok, the P80 is ancient, but it's fairly well known so I thought I'd mention the comparison. 

The key weights aren't graded. Again, for a general purpose MIDI controller, that's not unreasonable. I'm not playing piano concertos on this thing, and in any case have another option for that kind of thing (Kawai CA67).
There's some question about what kind of Fatar keybed this is, but I can tell you this much: it is definitely _not_ triple sensor.

So as a result of the above, if piano feel is what you're after, the S88 isn't the right solution. Fortunately that's not what _I _was looking for, and the action feels pretty close to what I had imagined from the few videos and reviews I could find. I'd not call it "sublime" but nor would I call it "rubbish." I think it's overall very good for a controller. Now, the M-Audio Axiom 61 that this is replacing is what I'd call rubbish.

I'm not sure what I think yet of the ribbon strips. They will take some time to get used to I think. But I _do_ quite like that I can reconfigure the ribbon that defaults to pitch bend to something like expression or vibrato.
By default, the mod "wheel" uses absolute mode so touching any area along the strip immediately jumps to that level. This can be changed to relative, which I think is better for VI control as it prevents sudden jumps. But I can see some uses for absolute.

The sustain port actually does support continuous pedals. It defaults to discrete on/off but with the Controller Editor software that can be reconfigured to continuous. So although I _can_ remap the CC number used for each of those pedal ports, it turns out that I don't need to.
When the key LEDs are disabled (rather the color is set to "black") and the LED brightness is dialed back, the keyboard doesn't produce a lot of light. This was important to me at least for those lights-off gaming sessions 
With the controller in standard MIDI mode (i.e. ignoring the fancy Komplete stuff) the programming possibilities look really attractive. Each of the encoders are configurable and you can define multiple pages of them. Moreover, you can define multiple templates (aka presets), and both pages and presets can be easily switched from the controller. So you could have a Spitfire preset, with encoders controlling the different mics, tunables like release, intensity, etc, and bitch bend remapped to vibrato or expression. And then you could have a Sample Modelling preset, with encoders for all of its zillion things, and a pitch bend ribbon. Of course NKS gives you a lot of this for free, but I like that I can do a lot of this customization myself, because not everything supports or is going to support NKS.
Unfortunately CC values are inconsistent and weird when changing presets. Sometimes they get reset to 0 when toggling presets and sometimes they preserve the value from the previous preset. I can't find a way to control that. Need to spend more time sussing that out.

So there are some preliminary thoughts on the S88. After a couple weeks with it I'll have a much better idea of likes and dislikes.


----------



## AxEbel

That was very helpful, meaning the lack of triple sensor just put the S88 off my list.
Since you have the CA67, have you tryed using it as a controller too? I ask because I'm now deciding between SL88 Grand and VPC 1/CA 67 myself. For fast playing I have the KK S61 but the 61 Keys are somewhat limiting and I miss weighted Keys.


----------



## Thorsten Meyer

I switch to an Nektar http://amzn.to/2baeMjE (Impact LX88) (Amazon US) and really like it. It did replace an M-Audio (88)


----------



## tack

AxEbel said:


> That was very helpful, meaning the lack of triple sensor just put the S88 off my list.


For my purposes, I don't think the lack of triple sensor will really be noticed. I do appreciate it when playing, say, trills, but the kind of parts I'll use the S88 to perform isn't that kind. And as I said, I have the CA67 for playing proper piano parts if I need it. Though I don't think I will need to use it nearly as often as the S88 provides me a lot more control over the Axiom. Would have been a nice bonus though. 



AxEbel said:


> Since you have the CA67, have you tryed using it as a controller too? I ask because I'm now deciding between SL88 Grand and VPC 1/CA 67 myself.


I haven't, no, not beyond piano VIs anyway. I suppose it could work fine, but it doesn't support aftertouch, which I like to have for certain instruments (especially Sample Modelling). Also, of course, you'll need another solution for CC control.

BTW the VPC-1 and CA67 have different actions. The CA67 action is slightly more upgraded. I've not tried the VPC1 but if it's anything like the CA67 it's going to be quite good for piano. However the CA67 is a digital piano -- it's a piece of furniture really -- the VPC1 is probably the better form factor as a controller, if the closest reproduction of a piano experience is what you're after.

For controlling non-piano VIs, I haven't done that enough to know if, apart from the lack of aftertouch, there will be any disadvantage. Wooden, ivory textured graded hammer action keys with triple sensor and double escapement -- or whatever -- is neat to have when I'm playing Chopin, but for inputting a horn line? I don't know that it would matter at all to me. Maybe someone here with that experience can chime in.


----------



## patrickgroegler

Guy Rowland said:


> Sheesh - why is it so hard to make a decent unweighted 88 note keyboard?
> 
> Get the 88 note semi-weighted Fatar. Put it in a box. Put good quality modwheel and pitch bend wheels onto the left hand side. Add jacks for sustain, CC1 and CC11. Put a logo on it.
> 
> Done.


Haha.. I've thought that so many times!
But actually Studiologic did, with the Vmk-88+
I personally like it a lot.
And with it's successor, the Numa Compact, it should be the same..?
Have no issues up to now, after 6 years of treating well, only in the studio...
But I had tons of issues with the sl-990, and everybody I know had...


----------



## GonzoFB

patrickgroegler said:


> Haha.. I've thought that so many times!
> But actually Studiologic did, with the Vmk-88+
> I personally like it a lot.
> And with it's successor, the Numa Compact, it should be the same..?
> Have no issues up to now, after 6 years of treating well, only in the studio...
> But I had tons of issues with the sl-990, and everybody I know had...



I'm using an SL990 Pro that I've had for about 15 years. The mod wheel and pitch bend started spewing cc data that drove me to....a dark place, shall we say. Until opening it up and just unplugging them ( it takes a dumb man a long time to almost fix simple things), I researched (almost spoon fed) how to filter out the cc data so I got some extra learning out of it before just opening up the wild beast. It's lasted well though. Velocity layers are not as subtle and I lusted after a Doepfer lmk 4+ but decided to go for the new Vaxmidi instead, which hopefully will be ready by Novemember. Almost bought a VPC-1 but l need a board for more than just piano.

I swear with a nice lottery win, apart from the obvious self indulgence and philanthropy, starting a business that made reliable basic keyboards with good beds and none of this darn fluff and lights they stick all over them nowadays, would feel like God's work


----------



## GonzoFB

tack said:


> I just got my Kontrol S88. I won't be able to spend proper time with it for a few days, but here are some very initial impressions after half an hour or so:
> 
> I think "spongy and stiff" is not altogether an unfair characterization of the action. But it's not entirely unpleasant, to my fingers anyway. No, it doesn't feel like a piano, but that's not necessarily a bad thing for a MIDI controller. I wanted a weighted keybed and this one certainly delivers: the keys have a nontrivial heft to them.
> Key surface feel is not bad. The black keys aren't textured, but they have a bit of a matte finish.
> I like the action and key texture better than my aging but trusty Yamaha P80. Ok, the P80 is ancient, but it's fairly well known so I thought I'd mention the comparison.
> 
> The key weights aren't graded. Again, for a general purpose MIDI controller, that's not unreasonable. I'm not playing piano concertos on this thing, and in any case have another option for that kind of thing (Kawai CA67).
> There's some question about what kind of Fatar keybed this is, but I can tell you this much: it is definitely _not_ triple sensor.
> 
> So as a result of the above, if piano feel is what you're after, the S88 isn't the right solution. Fortunately that's not what _I _was looking for, and the action feels pretty close to what I had imagined from the few videos and reviews I could find. I'd not call it "sublime" but nor would I call it "rubbish." I think it's overall very good for a controller. Now, the M-Audio Axiom 61 that this is replacing is what I'd call rubbish.
> 
> I'm not sure what I think yet of the ribbon strips. They will take some time to get used to I think. But I _do_ quite like that I can reconfigure the ribbon that defaults to pitch bend to something like expression or vibrato.
> By default, the mod "wheel" uses absolute mode so touching any area along the strip immediately jumps to that level. This can be changed to relative, which I think is better for VI control as it prevents sudden jumps. But I can see some uses for absolute.
> 
> The sustain port actually does support continuous pedals. It defaults to discrete on/off but with the Controller Editor software that can be reconfigured to continuous. So although I _can_ remap the CC number used for each of those pedal ports, it turns out that I don't need to.
> When the key LEDs are disabled (rather the color is set to "black") and the LED brightness is dialed back, the keyboard doesn't produce a lot of light. This was important to me at least for those lights-off gaming sessions
> With the controller in standard MIDI mode (i.e. ignoring the fancy Komplete stuff) the programming possibilities look really attractive. Each of the encoders are configurable and you can define multiple pages of them. Moreover, you can define multiple templates (aka presets), and both pages and presets can be easily switched from the controller. So you could have a Spitfire preset, with encoders controlling the different mics, tunables like release, intensity, etc, and bitch bend remapped to vibrato or expression. And then you could have a Sample Modelling preset, with encoders for all of its zillion things, and a pitch bend ribbon. Of course NKS gives you a lot of this for free, but I like that I can do a lot of this customization myself, because not everything supports or is going to support NKS.
> Unfortunately CC values are inconsistent and weird when changing presets. Sometimes they get reset to 0 when toggling presets and sometimes they preserve the value from the previous preset. I can't find a way to control that. Need to spend more time sussing that out.
> 
> So there are some preliminary thoughts on the S88. After a couple weeks with it I'll have a much better idea of likes and dislikes.


Very nice review! Very much making me wish I had have decided on this one, almost. Your final paragraph regarding CC value inconsistency and values sometimes being reset would feel like dragging me back to the darkness of the SL990 Pro hysteria. Yes, dark times....

Please let us know if you find a way of overcoming this of if NI manage to squish whichever bug may be causing it.


----------



## chimuelo

Flux said:


> Any opinions on the Physis K series?



Sure am.
The very best controller I ever owned.
Met a fellow performer with the K4 and graded action.
Really heavy and no Piano I own can get that sfz sound right, too compressed.
Malmsjo and PianoTeq Upright jam in higher registers really well but my others make me cut the mids when comping soloing.

K4s semi weighted action is fine with me.
The heavy is a chore unless youve been on a grand for years.


----------



## tack

Can someone who owns a Kontrol S88 tell me if this left side chassis clicking sound is normal? It's terribly obnoxious and I thought it might go away as I worked it in, but it hasn't, so now I'm considering an exchange. I still like the keyboard otherwise.

It occurs on most keys between around G3 and A6 (where C4 is middle C) when playing around mf and harder.



Thanks!


----------



## tack

tack said:


> Can someone who owns a Kontrol S88 tell me if this left side chassis clicking sound is normal?


Well the retailer I bought it from checked with NI "on how they will rectify the problem" and then followed up saying a replacement is on order. So that's a positive next step. I'm not too put off over the fact that it's doing this -- these things happen and it all comes down to how it's handled, and whether or not the issue exists in the new unit. I'll update here when the new unit arrives.


----------



## playz123

tack said:


> Can someone who owns a Kontrol S88 tell me if this left side chassis clicking sound is normal? It's terribly obnoxious and I thought it might go away as I worked it in, but it hasn't, so now I'm considering an exchange. I still like the keyboard otherwise.
> 
> It occurs on most keys between around G3 and A6 (where C4 is middle C) when playing around mf and harder.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!



Nope, not happening here at all! I wonder if the keybed was jolted during shipping, or somebody dropped it and didn't tell you. Certainly not 'normal', and definitely worth looking into an exchange.


----------



## iMovieShout

playz123 said:


> Nope, not happening here at all! I wonder if the keybed was jolted during shipping, or somebody dropped it and didn't tell you. Certainly not 'normal', and definitely worth looking into an exchange.



Hi Playz123,
Can't say I have this problem. My S88 is about 4 months old and used daily, but all is fine and solid.

Jon


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## playz123

Actually it was Tack who was reporting that he had a problem..not me. My S88 is fine too.


----------



## 5Lives

Any more updates from S88 owners? Liking it as a 88 controller for synths, orchestral samples, and piano?


----------



## tack

5Lives said:


> Any more updates from S88 owners? Liking it as a 88 controller for synths, orchestral samples, and piano?


Apart from the noise I mentioned (still waiting for my replacement to land), I like it overall except I just haven't gotten accustomed to the ribbon sensor instead of a physical modwheel. I do rather like the keyboard otherwise -- especially the configurability of the encoders and support for user customizable templates in MIDI mode -- so I don't want to return it over that.

I'm looking for standalone modwheel options but they are quite slim indeed. Closest I've been able to find is the FaderPort and it's not quite what I'm looking for.


----------



## 5Lives

@tack are you enjoying the keybed and action? Even for piano?


----------



## tack

5Lives said:


> @tack are you enjoying the keybed and action? Even for piano?


Yes, I'd say so. You have to consider that I came from an Axiom 61, which has a wretched keybed, so any weighted option was going to be a vast improvement. It would have been hard not to be happy.

It doesn't feel much like a real piano compared to my Kawai CA67, but I'm able to play on it. I mean as good as _I_ can play, anyway. If I'm playing trills (which I'm terrible at and force myself to practice a lot) I immediately notice the lack of triple sensor compared to my CA67. But otherwise, I'm able to adjust to the heavier weight without much effort. And, crucially, I'm able to control it in terms of velocity. With my Axiom 61 I was all over the place, but on the S88 I don't remember so far being agitated about notes coming out substantially louder or quieter than I intended.

On the other hand, I've just described the main benefit of _any_ weighted keyboard. 

I guess the tl;dr version is that I'm finding myself compatible with the keybed, cognizant of the fact that it's not trying to be a piano (though I'm able to play piano on it without sounding any worse than I normally do), and I do like the configurability. I do wish it had a few faders though -- god knows there's plenty of real-estate for it.

All that notwithstanding the clicking noise I complained about. If the replacement unit clicks too, then I'll have new things to say.


----------



## byzantium

Also in the market for an 88-key controller.

I tried out a *Nectar LX88* recently. I thought I might buy it based on a great review by Walid, and others, and the fact it contains lots of functionality for very little money, looks great, is small and light, and very little money. Mod wheel felt good, faders a little stiff but were freeing up with use. I found the keys a little springier than I thought, but noticed a bigger difference between the black and white keys than I had thought might be the case from the reviews. I found quite a marked difference between playing an F chord on all whites and an F sharp chord on all blacks (granted these are two extremes). For the same velocity, the F sharp chord was considerably louder and I couldn't get it to play as quietly as the F even with reduced velocity.

I haven't been able to try a Komplete Kontrol S88 yet. I did manage to try to a *Roland A-88 *though, and quite liked it. It doesn't react like a piano, the keys are a little bouncy and light, but I thought it might be a good compromise between being able to play piano with a reasonable piano feel, and also play virtual instruments like drums, strings, brass etc. I thought I could get it to repeat notes pretty quickly because of the lightness / bounciness, though it might work when inputting drums (I didn't have to connected to any VIs though so couldn't tell). I had a Yamaha P120 I think it was, digital piano before, and keys were just too heavy for me even for piano.

*Question:* *Does anyone use an A-88 (or other similar weighted keyboard) for both piano and VIs ?* I have limited space, I don't want to have two keyboard controllers, one for each type. (I currently use a Roland Fantom G7 as a midi controller (light synth action, not too springy) and I am well used to it, it is pretty good for VIs, and nice sliders (and the mac keyboard can actually sit on top of the large screen securely) but not good for piano. (I'm afraid my fingers are getting weaker and weaker from it!) (But also a bit worried that if I buy a piano-style controller, that I won't like it for inputting VI midi for strings etc!). 

Related question - ergonomics / working position with a controller:  *How do people set up their desks to accommodate both musical keyboard and computer keyboard and mouse?* Do you keep the music keyboard closest to you, and computer keyboard above? Or the other way round - computer keyboard and mouse close, and piano keyboard behind? Or switch between the two depending on whether chiefly playing or chiefly editing? Or sliding drawer-type arrangement?

One advantage of the A-88 might be that it is not deep and doesn't have any screen or buttons on the top, so I could perhaps place keyboard and mouse on top, or build some kind of thin overhanging shelf over it. I do get wrist and shoulder pain from having mouse too far away I think. Also I'm not sure whether built-in DAW controls in the newer hardware controllers like the Komplete S88 and Nektar LX88 would replace the need to use a mouse... Also my mouse itself is a problem - still using the cool but too small / non-ergonomic mac mouse, look to replace that as well - I know there was a big discussion about mice on another thread - another hot topic! My chair (another hot topic) (mine is just an IKEA Malcolm, not bad but has arm-rests which are sometimes relieving for typing but I think they might be just a little too high, causing shoulders to hunch...)

Sorry, quite a few related questions there, but I would be grateful if anyone can share any of their own experiences, recommendations, what you find might have worked reasonably well for you.
This is a long-running thread, and I'm sure there have been many previous similar ones - there seems to be a lot of interest in finding the holy grail of controllers and working positions, which may not exist yet!

Thanks again, Paul.


----------



## Morodiene

byzantium said:


> *Question:* *Does anyone use an A-88 (or other similar weighted keyboard) for both piano and VIs ?* I have limited space, I don't want to have two keyboard controllers, one for each type. (I currently use a Roland Fantom G7 as a midi controller (light synth action, not too springy) and I am well used to it, it is pretty good for VIs, and nice sliders (and the mac keyboard can actually sit on top of the large screen securely) but not good for piano. (I'm afraid my fingers are getting weaker and weaker from it!) (But also a bit worried that if I buy a piano-style controller, that I won't like it for inputting VI midi for strings etc!).


I use a Kawai MP11 (although I have an acoustic piano I use for practicing when in town, and I use the MP11 for both when at our summer place). I use string vi's and I think it works well enough. I also have a Yamaha MOX6 that I could use if I felt I needed a more synth action for it, but so far I haven't felt the need. Note that I'm really early on in this process - it's not my livelihood.




> Related question - ergonomics / working position with a controller:





> *How do people set up their desks to accommodate both musical keyboard and computer keyboard and mouse?* Do you keep the music keyboard closest to you, and computer keyboard above? Or the other way round - computer keyboard and mouse close, and piano keyboard behind? Or switch between the two depending on whether chiefly playing or chiefly editing? Or sliding drawer-type arrangement?


 I have my keys perpendicular to the computer. This works great for me because I compose mainly in Finale, and for recording I don't need to be looking at the computer. It's close enough where I can just reach over or scoot my chair over to play an idea, and come back to the computer to enter it in.


----------



## byzantium

Thanks very much Morodiene! Looks like a lovely setup. I think you have a very fine keyboard there with the M11. I don't think I could work at right angles though, because I compose by ear effectively, in midi-land, so I need the screen DAW feedback pretty straight away, and with midi editing interspersed with playing. I spend more time with the mouse than with the (music) keyboard! At moment I put by computer keyboard and mouse in front of my music keyboard (an old Roland Fantom G7) on a table and that seems to be the most ergonomic / least worst for me. (I couldn't figure out how to add a pic). I thought of pull-out drawers for the music keyboard, but I think with that setup, maybe the mouse and computer keyboard might be too high and cause strain problems that way.... A tough one to get right, between: (1) the feel of the keyboard, (2) having good wheels and faders, and (3) simultaneous ergonomic access to computer controls and screen.


----------



## Morodiene

byzantium said:


> Thanks very much Morodiene! Looks like a lovely setup. I think you have a very fine keyboard there with the M11. I don't think I could work at right angles though, because I compose by ear effectively, in midi-land, so I need the screen DAW feedback pretty straight away, and with midi editing interspersed with playing. I spend more time with the mouse than with the (music) keyboard! At moment I put by computer keyboard and mouse in front of my music keyboard (an old Roland Fantom G7) on a table and that seems to be the most ergonomic / least worst for me. (I couldn't figure out how to add a pic). I thought of pull-out drawers for the music keyboard, but I think with that setup, maybe the mouse and computer keyboard might be too high and cause strain problems that way.... A tough one to get right, between: (1) the feel of the keyboard, (2) having good wheels and faders, and (3) simultaneous ergonomic access to computer controls and screen.



Ideally, we shouldn't be sitting when working at the computer, but playing while standing doesn't work either. I've seen desks that are made with the keyboard in a drawer under the desktop. That would make the keyboard a bit low and probably hitting your legs, but maybe with an adjustable chair you can get the height right. Not sure if there's one right solution, but just one that you pick that works for your workflow needs. But it sounds like something like this would work best for you.


----------



## byzantium

Thanks again Morodiene, yeah I think you might be right about needing to have a chair that is height-adjustable (over a good distance) if you are using a pull-out drawer for a music keyboard. 

To be totally ergonomic, it might mean that you need to be able to push the music keyboard quite far back into the desk, so that it gets out of the way of your knees, so that if you raised the chair up, you could get up to a better ergonomic position to use the higher computer keyboard and mouse for extended periods (without hitting your legs off the music keyboard below). Might be awkward to pull it back out then again!

Of course if one is alternately using the music and computer keyboards, one couldn't keep sliding the music keyboard in and out, and raising up and down the chair! 

I've seen slide-out drawers underneath the music keyboard as well for the computer keyboard and mouse (like a 'standard' computer desk, with the slide-out drawer, but with the midi controller on the top surface) - this might work also, I don't know. It would mean the music keyboard would have to be slightly higher though to accommodate the computer slide-out drawer below. 

This is too difficult!


----------



## Morodiene

Here's your solution:
http://www.martinandziegler.com/ergo-music-height-adjustable-music-production-desk
Too bad no photos show it extended to standing height.


----------



## byzantium

Geez that's amazing, how did you find that! Exactly the kind of thing I was talking about (except in reverse - move the desk rather than move the chair). Fantastic someone had an old DX7 they used as the example keyboard! 

It's a serious price tag though - $2900! I was thinking maybe I could get a carpenter to fit a sliding drawer under a cheaper €545 Ikea motorised sit/stand desk, but the spacing between the desk legs is too narrow on the Ikea to accommodate the keyboard sliding far enough backwards, and doesn't look like one can widen the legs as it is an all-in-one frame... But ya got me thinkin'... Thanks!


----------



## Morodiene

byzantium said:


> Geez that's amazing, how did you find that! Exactly the kind of thing I was talking about (except in reverse - move the desk rather than move the chair). Fantastic someone had an old DX7 they used as the example keyboard!
> 
> It's a serious price tag though - $2900! I was thinking maybe I could get a carpenter to fit a sliding drawer under a cheaper €545 Ikea motorised sit/stand desk, but the spacing between the desk legs is too narrow on the Ikea to accommodate the keyboard sliding far enough backwards, and doesn't look like one can widen the legs as it is an all-in-one frame... But ya got me thinkin'... Thanks!


Ya, that's a hefty price tag. One would think you could do something perhaps not motorized, but similar. Maybe with hydraulic lifts if there's a way to lock it in place once you get the right height for what you're doing.


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## JJP

Morodiene said:


> I have my keys perpendicular to the computer. This works great for me because I compose mainly in Finale, and for recording I don't need to be looking at the computer. It's close enough where I can just reach over or scoot my chair over to play an idea, and come back to the computer to enter it in.



I guess this means you don't use Speedy Entry in Finale. I regularly pull 8-hour days in front of Finale and need to have one hand on the MIDI keyboard and the other on the QWERTY keyboard. Working otherwise is just too slow.

For years I had a perpendicular setup where I could reach both keyboards simultaneously, but having to constantly turn my head eventually caused pain in my neck and upper back when working for long hours. The upside was that I was moving my body a lot. I move less now that I have both in front of me.


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## Morodiene

JJP said:


> I guess this means you don't use Speedy Entry in Finale. I regularly pull 8-hour days in front of Finale and need to have one hand on the MIDI keyboard and the other on the QWERTY keyboard. Working otherwise is just too slow.
> 
> For years I had a perpendicular setup where I could reach both keyboards simultaneously, but having to constantly turn my head eventually caused pain in my neck and upper back when working for long hours. The upside was that I was moving my body a lot. I move less now that I have both in front of me.


Ya, I'm definitely not using speedy entry. For me it works faster just clicking in the notes and using key commands - and I'm not doing this 8 hours a day, for sure! I think anything you do in one position for too long without getting up and moving will cause problems. :(


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## Rodney Money

Morodiene said:


> Ya, I'm definitely not using speedy entry. For me it works faster just clicking in the notes and using key commands - and I'm not doing this 8 hours a day, for sure! I think anything you do in one position for too long without getting up and moving will cause problems. :(


Goodness, if I had to use either speedy entry or clicking in the notes I would go insane. Apparently according to Finale Power Users on Facebook I am the only person in the world who uses Hyperscribe, lol. But I guess that's why I can also finish a score while having lunch!


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## 5Lives

I'm trying to replace my Yamaha P-155 with a single keyboard that I can use both as a general MIDI controller but also to practice / play the piano as I do on the P-155. Anybody know which Fatar action is closest to that? Thank you!!


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## PaulWorbey

I'm a former classical pianist, and played Steinway B and Bosendorfer 225 pianos.
My practice keyboard is now a Kawai VPC1.
The return / repetition is slow, the key bed depth shallow, and weight is light.
That said it is an amazing midi keyboard controller considering the price.
Highly recommended. I'm keeping mine for years to come.


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## Morodiene

PaulWorbey said:


> I'm a former classical pianist, and played Steinway B and Bosendorfer 225 pianos.
> My practice keyboard is now a Kawai VPC1.
> The return / repetition is slow, the key bed depth shallow, and weight is light.
> That said it is an amazing midi keyboard controller considering the price.
> Highly recommended. I'm keeping mine for years to come.


The VPC-1 is a great piano. The issue is that the key length/pivot point isn't quite long enough, which makes them a bit harder to press down when playing toward the fallboard. But for the money, it has a great feel to it. It jsut lacks the pitch bend/mod wheel, so not ideal for anything other than software piano.


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## Morodiene

Rodney Money said:


> Goodness, if I had to use either speedy entry or clicking in the notes I would go insane. Apparently according to Finale Power Users on Facebook I am the only person in the world who uses Hyperscribe, lol. But I guess that's why I can also finish a score while having lunch!


I'm a slow composer, so I guess speed isn't an issue for me LOL


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## AllanH

I would take a look at the "Studiologic SL88 Grand Keyboard Controller". It has the higher-end Fatar Wood key action. My favorite for basic playing is the Fatar TP40L in my Kurzweil, but our Kawai CA97 has a fantastic pure piano feel (the pivot is where you'd expect it on a grand). If Kawai created an "MP11" with the newer CA97 action, I'd consider it.


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## Morodiene

AllanH said:


> I would take a look at the "Studiologic SL88 Grand Keyboard Controller". It has the higher-end Fatar Wood key action. My favorite for basic playing is the Fatar TP40L in my Kurzweil, but our Kawai CA97 has a fantastic pure piano feel (the pivot is where you'd expect it on a grand). If Kawai created an "MP11" with the newer CA97 action, I'd consider it.


The difference between the GF and the GFII action I believe is the GFII is a bit lighter. They both have the same key length and pivot point, however. 

Are you able to use the CA97 for a controller? I believe it has the functionality, but the fact that it's a console may make it tough to work alongside a computer.


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## PaulWorbey

Morodiene said:


> The VPC-1 is a great piano. The issue is that the key length/pivot point isn't quite long enough, which makes them a bit harder to press down when playing toward the fallboard. But for the money, it has a great feel to it. It jsut lacks the pitch bend/mod wheel, so not ideal for anything other than software piano.



Thanks for the reply!

What's your favorite keyboard controller?


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## AllanH

Morodiene said:


> The difference between the GF and the GFII action I believe is the GFII is a bit lighter. They both have the same key length and pivot point, however.
> .


I was writing from memory, my apologies. The pivot is the same. Here are the differences that were important to me (http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...:_KAWAI_CA97/67_on__youtube!.html#Post2377024):

- Revised hammer shape and weight (optimised centre of gravity, improves dynamic load)
- Counterweights on all 88 keys, graded from bass to treble
- Improved note-on timing, with ability to trigger notes from the let-off point

Of those, #2 and #3 were noticeable to me.
I have not used the CA97 as a controller, but will look at it. I use it exclusively to simply play.


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## Morodiene

PaulWorbey said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> What's your favorite keyboard controller?


I prefer the MP11 action, it's a bit lighter than the VPC-1 - but the VPC-1 actually felt identical to my Petrof concert grand. But that is a heavy action, so I like having something a bit lighter to work on as well. Both are great. 

I owned the VPC-1 and returned it when the MP11 came out because for teaching purposes, it was a pain to have to plug in my laptop which I needed to use for typing up student's notes. So I really needed something with onboard sounds for that reason. Otherwise I would have kept it. 

It's rare that a digital piano can actually be enjoyable to play. Most of the time I just manage to tolerate it :D


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## JJP

Rodney Money said:


> Goodness, if I had to use either speedy entry or clicking in the notes I would go insane. Apparently according to Finale Power Users on Facebook I am the only person in the world who uses Hyperscribe, lol. But I guess that's why I can also finish a score while having lunch!



I use Hyperscribe occasionally, but it's often faster for me to use Speedy Edit because I'm not always working linearly or I'm jumping between programs. I.E. listen to 4 bars in ProTools, start notating them in Finale, get to bar 2 and think, "Did I hear that right?", quickly check PT, continue from where I left off in Finale without having to stop and restart Hyperscribe.

I also like to be able to enter notes faster that they are to be played in real time. I'm not going to wait four beats for a whole note. Enter the note and move on! It's more like a pencil that way.

P.S. I realize that I'm hijacking this thread now. Sorry folks, I'll step out.


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## 5Lives

Wish there was a comparison guide to the different actions manufacturers offer. For example, what isn't the Roland equivalent to Yamaha GH or what is the Fatar equivalent? Obviously they will all be slightly different but that would help since I haven't found a store that has everything available to try.


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## Morodiene

5Lives said:


> Wish there was a comparison guide to the different actions manufacturers offer. For example, what isn't the Roland equivalent to Yamaha GH or what is the Fatar equivalent? Obviously they will all be slightly different but that would help since I haven't found a store that has everything available to try.


Usually the comparison is more what you can get for a certain $, and whether or not that item suits a person's needs. So often, the price tag will determine what gets compared rather than action.

If you're looking to compare actions, I'd say that Kawai CA67/97 or CS8/11 compares with Roland LX17 and Yamaha CLP585. Usually people looking at any one of these will check out the others as well. These are all of the top-end of each company without going into hybrids.


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## 5Lives

Contemplating going a new direction - Casio Privia PX-5S. Triple sensor hammer action, mod and pitch wheels, 4 knobs and 6 faders. Anybody have one?


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## Morodiene

5Lives said:


> Contemplating going a new direction - Casio Privia PX-5S. Triple sensor hammer action, mod and pitch wheels, 4 knobs and 6 faders. Anybody have one?


I like the PX-5S. It has a decent enough action for most piano stuff (though not anywhere near as nice as the Kawais - it is nicer on the wallet though), and you have enough controllers (IMO) for it to work well as a MIDI controller. I haven't used it, however, so this is just based on what I've heard from owners of this. 

Definitely worth checking out in any case.


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## 5Lives

The Kawais and Yamahas unfortunately have very limited controllers and are often rather bulky and heavy. The VPC-1 is too tall to fit on my keyboard tray under my desk and doesn't even have a mod wheel for example..


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## byzantium

5Lives said:


> The Kawais and Yamahas unfortunately have very limited controllers and are often rather bulky and heavy. The VPC-1 is too tall to fit on my keyboard tray under my desk and doesn't even have a mod wheel for example..



@5Lives: Tokatila a few pages back in this thread said something pretty interesting:

"So, what I did is that I connected my existing digital piano (Casio Privia PX160) to the computer and bought the Korg nanoKontrol Studio for basic fader functionality. PX160 has a great keybed for the price, but a little too light for me for playing the piano. But as a midi controller the touch is about perfect and miles ahead what you get from dedicated midi keyboards for the price. Privia has exactly the same keybed as Casio stage piano / midi controller px-5s, and if I didn't have the PX160 already, I probably would have considered that one.
I love having 88 keys and the touch is just perfect for me for midi controlling. I can play much much more expressively, and not just a keyed instruments, but the spiccato/staccato string lines too."

So if you were looking to build / fit something into a keyboard tray (I'm in the same boat), maybe the PX-160 could be a good option as it's got a flatter top than the PX-5s (would slide in further), has the same action, is cheaper, and you could use the saved money to buy a Nanokontrol2 / other controller to place on the top shelf of the desk (along with the qwerty keyboard / mouse).

Did you get an opportunity to try the Casio PX-5s? 
Anyone else use a Casio PX- range as a midi controller?

PS On another (casio) forum, in answer to a question comparing the PX-5s and a Roland A-88 (I mention the Roland because it is a little shallower if you were looking to fit a keyboard in a certain space under a desk), most people really loved the PX-5s but one person who had both keyboards, said he preferred the Roland for ease of playing. I guess one would have to play both keyboards oneself to judge.


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## byzantium

Other options for a weighted keyboard that would fit under a desk, and not be too expensive, could be the Kawai ES-100 and Roland FP-30 digital pianos. I don't have any of these keyboards, I am just basing on dimensions and searches / reviews.


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## byzantium

Small update re the above - where I live has very limited stock but I was able to try out the newish Roland FP-30 88-key digital piano (€600), and a Roland A-88 (€760) hooked up to a piano module - as potential midi controllers that would be slim enough to create something ergonomic in or under a desk drawer (like those nice flightcase-less Doepfers that get built in to custom desks), with external midi controllers / faders, qwerty + mouse on top.

The FP30 has the newer RHA-IV action/keybed which is supposed to be better, but I actually preferred the A-88 (with its older 'Ivory Feel G' action). It seemed lighter/faster and easier to play quietly (for me). There was also an FP-50 there, which is supposed to have the same 'Ivory Feel G' as the A-88, but it didn't feel the same at all to me, felt heavier.

So I'm not sure what to do - I'd like to be able to audition other keybeds/actions like the NI S88, Kawai ES100 and Casio FX-160 as controller candidates, but I can't find them anywhere, so I think I will just get the Roland A-88 (there may be better boards, but I do like it), and try to build a custom desk around it - especially as it seems to be the slimmest / least-high keyboard I can find.

Option 1 for custom desk is to mount the keyboard as low as possible over my knees (no shelf under it), and build a sliding shelf immediately above it (or / and abutting the back of the keyboard at the same level) to hold computer controls and faders. Hopefully this will leave the computer controls low and close enough not to cause ergonomic / pain problems.

Option 2 is to buy a wide-enough (e.g.1600mm) motorised sit/stand desk and hang a strong sliding drawer under it (with a cut-out for knees). And allow the 88-key to slide right back to clear your knees, so you can lower the desk for non-playing use.


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## 5Lives

I finally had a chance to go to a music store and a piano store today to try out a few keyboards. Potentially more confused than before, but have a much better sense of actions 

- I tried the Roland RD-800 and did not like the action whatsoever. Just did not gel with me. Don't like the feel of the keys either.
- The Arturia KeyLab 88 felt terrible as well. Very noisy.
- The NI S88 was surprisingly nice in terms of how the key tops felt. The action is much heavier and stiff (though not nearly as bad as the MPK88). I think this could be a very nice controller keyboard and is surprisingly quiet.
- The Casio's (Privia action) have a much lighter action - maybe too light? Feels a bit flimsy to me. Having the triple sensor is nice though and I think the action could be adapted to. Keys are a bit loud though.
- The Kawai CA-67 has above and beyond the best action I've felt with a digital piano. The end. Grand Feel II action and actual wooden keys. So hard to go back to playing plastic after that. Stunning sound as well. Not really practical for a master MIDI controller keyboard though.

So my choices are down to a Casion PX-5S and an NI S88. I was hoping to get rid of my Yamaha P-155, but I think it'll probably keep it for now (maybe replace it eventually with the Kawai CA-67 or something).


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## tack

5Lives said:


> The Kawai CA-67 has above and beyond the best action I've felt with a digital piano.


I feel the same way. I've been extremely happy with that purchase.

I have both the CA-67 and the S88 handy and I feel like I have the best of both worlds. I'm still waiting for my replacement S88 to arrive (apparently Canada's _only_ distributor is out of stock) to fix the clicking noise I complained about a few pages back, but assuming that gets sorted, the only thing that would make me happier is a few faders on the S88.


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## 5Lives

tack said:


> I feel the same way. I've been extremely happy with that purchase.
> 
> I have both the CA-67 and the S88 handy and I feel like I have the best of both worlds. I'm still waiting for my replacement unit to arrive (apparently Canada's _only_ distributor is out of stock) to fix the clicking noise I complained about a few pages back, but assuming that gets sorted, the only thing that would make me happier is a few faders on the S88.



That's why I'm contemplating the Casio - has a few faders, plus knobs, plus pitch and mod wheels. On top of that, triple sensor hammer action. I also haven't really gone through the trouble of loading stuff into Komplete Kontrol with my S61.


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## tack

5Lives said:


> That's why I'm contemplating the Casio - has a few faders, plus knobs, plus pitch and mod wheels. On top of that, triple sensor hammer action.


I really appreciate the triple sensor on the CA-67, particularly when I'm playing classical stuff (I'm not terribly good at trills and the triple sensor helps), but to be honest for general MIDI controlling I haven't found I miss it. But if you're looking for a controller where you can play in serious piano performances, I can imagine why it'd be a worthy item add to the critera.

My main problem with the Casio PX-5S is ... the white parts. For some reason I just want my keyboards to be black.


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## 5Lives

tack said:


> I really appreciate the triple sensor on the CA-67, particularly when I'm playing classical stuff (I'm not terribly good at trills and the triple sensor helps), but to be honest for general MIDI controlling I haven't found I miss it. But if you're looking for a controller where you can play in serious piano performances, I can imagine why it'd be a worthy item add to the critera.
> 
> My main problem with the Casio PX-5S is ... the white parts. For some reason I just want my keyboards to be black.



Fair point  I might need to adopt your setup - controller + piano vs. trying to consolidate. Do you use the Komplete Kontrol functionality? I do like having the LCDs with the knobs - so easy to remember parameters.


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## tack

5Lives said:


> Do you use the Komplete Kontrol functionality? I do like having the LCDs with the knobs - so easy to remember parameters.


You know, I've not really gotten into using the NKS stuff at all. I've used the Controller Editor software to configure different presets (aka templates) for Spitfire and Sample Modelling, and I can tweak all the parameters I need from the encoders, while running the controller in what they call "MIDI mode" where it acts as a standard MIDI controller.

I can access the different templates quickly right from the keyboard. I suppose I'd not have to worry about switching presets if I'd used the NKS stuff, but it's not a heavy burden in practice and in any case most of my libraries don't yet support NKS anyway (including Sample Modelling). Also I like turning the key LEDs off most of the time -- I've personally found that a bit gimmicky -- but with NKS, as far as I can tell, you're using the manufacturer's configuration whether you want to or not.

So, setting the NKS stuff aside, the Kontrol keyboards to make very configurable, fine general MIDI controllers that work with everything you're already used to.


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## 5Lives

Indeed - that has been my approach thus far as well with the S61. I'll need to consider your approach then  Expensive but seems the best!


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## N.Caffrey

Opinions on the arturia keylab 88?


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## 5Lives

N.Caffrey said:


> Opinions on the arturia keylab 88?


Disliked the keybed when I tried it. You should try it out at a store if you can. I've seen some YouTube videos about the poor quality as well.


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## byzantium

Played a Kawai CA97 today. Wow! I thought it was absolutely beautiful, both in feel and sound. Better than many an acoustic piano I would say. A gorgeous, comfortable and inviting thing to play. 

I also tried an Kawai ES8 portable (before the CA97) but I didn't like it (which was a surprise). This probably reinforces how subjective these things can be, depending on your background / abilities / goals etc. 

I couldn't get my hands on a Casio PX range to try them out, as the action is supposed to very good for the price. 

I played the Roland A-88 again, it's not sure it's 100% what I'm looking for (I'm not sure that exists!), but it's not bad either - it's somewhat artificial, but not slow to play - and robust by reputation, and it has the right form factor for building into an ergonomic desk setup - so I might just end up going for it, as the best of the bunch that I can get my hands on.


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## byzantium

N.Caffrey said:


> Opinions on the arturia keylab 88?



The store guy mentioned these today, he said they had had a number of them in a while back, but he sent them back and said he wouldn't sell them, as they were the noisiest thing he'd every heard.


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## 5Lives

Went back to the store today to try the various keyboards again - and walked out with the Native Instruments Kontrol S88. The Casio ended up once again feelings too "cheap" and flimsy. No weight to it and it was very, very noisy. The Arturia Keylab 88 was never in serious content, but was similar but even noisier.

Having spent all of 30 minutes playing the S88, I'm pretty satisfied. It feels well made and the noise is minimal (though nothing like a digital piano - especially like the Kawai). The key tops feel very nice and although the keybed does feel a bit heavy in terms of touch, I think I can get used to it. At the moment, I don't seem to have quite the dynamic range as on a digital piano, but I think I will keep my existing Yamaha for the piano experience (and upgrade to the Kawai CA series eventually).

Finally, moving from a 61 key semi-weighted to a 88 hammer weighted controller feels amazing! At least from the standpoint of being able to sit at my workstation and play semi-decent piano lines in. Still TBD on how synths, percussion, etc. will feel on it, but I think I can make it work. And I rather like having the light guides, controller knobs + LCDs, DAW controller, and the ribbon strips built in - especially as more and more developers are moving to the NKS format. And for the ones that aren't, it is so easy to create instrument-specific custom templates that you can switch between very easily.

So far so good and would recommend the S88 at the moment!


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## byzantium

5Lives said:


> ...walked out with the Native Instruments Control S88... moving from a 61 key semi-weighted to a 88 hammer weighted controller feels amazing! Still TBD on how synths, percussion, etc. will feel on it.



This would be my main concern about using a weighted 88-key weighted for all / non-piano VIs. Do let us know how you get on with it for strings, brass, drums etc when you have had a chance to use it for a while. 



5Lives said:


> The Casio ended up once again feelings too "cheap" and flimsy. No weight to it and it was very, very noisy.



Which Casio was it?


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## 5Lives

byzantium said:


> Which Casio was it?



I played both the Privia 360 and the 860.


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## tack

@5Lives since you've also been running the Kontrol in MIDI mode, what kind of solution do you have for keeping the encoder values in sync with your DAW for non NKS VIs?

They are rather wont to reset to zero, aren't they. For example when changing presets, they all reset in spite of my best efforts. It's an irritation I've been living with up until now.

I've managed a solution for my DAW (Reaper), with a custom script that enables MIDI hardware output to the S88 on track select (disabling the MIDI out on previous tracks). So when one hits play on the transport, and the DAW chases all CCs in use on the currently focused track, this will snap all the encoders to the current values for the track. I'm now trying to sort out a way for Reaper to chase CCs on track select, which would avoid having to press play to sync up the encoders.

I wonder what other people who use the Kontrol S keyboards in MIDI mode are doing here?


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## 5Lives

I haven't really run into or noticed that issue actually @tack


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## byzantium

5Lives said:


> The Casio ended up once again feelings too "cheap" and flimsy. No weight to it and it was very, very noisy.





5Lives said:


> I played both the Privia 360 and the 860.



Thanks @5Lives. I know these things are subjective, but based on your findings (especially the noise of the keys part), I might not bother waiting the month or more for the Casios to come into stock then in my local store - I might just get the Roland A-88 (which seems to be really well built), plus a Nanokontrol2 for faders.


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## byzantium

5Lives said:


> Went back to the store today to try the various keyboards again - and walked out with the Native Instruments Kontrol S88.



You must have preferred the NI S88 over the Studiologic SL88 Grand then.


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## 5Lives

byzantium said:


> You must have preferred the NI S88 over the Studiologic SL88 Grand then.


Unfortunately, nobody seems to carry the SL88 in store and I didn't want to risk it. I played the S88 a bunch more yesterday and am enjoying it a lot. The keys are a little stiff but maybe they'll loosen up. On top of that, having the Komplete and NKS integration with the knobs and light guide is really really nice actually.


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## tack

tack said:


> Well the retailer I bought it from checked with NI "on how they will rectify the problem" and then followed up saying a replacement is on order.


I just thought I should close the loop on this and follow up to say that my replacement Kontrol S88 finally arrived -- apparently the sole distributor in Canada was out of stock last month. Happily, the obnoxious clicking problem doesn't exist with the new unit.

Interestingly, when plugging in the new controller, it immediately booted with my custom presets. Oddly, some of the configuration wasn't ported over, such as LED brightness, but I was surprised to see everything else Just Work with no intervention required.


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## 5Lives

Great to hear @tack! I'm really happy with my S88 purchase.


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## byzantium

Just a bit of feedback / follow-up on a weighted midi controller purchase, if it is useful to anyone. 

After checking out the Casio PX160 and Roland fp30 digital pianos as a potential midi controllers and liking them, I ended up buying the Roland a-88 for the decent consistent feel, flat top and low size to fit under a sliding drawer. I thought the key press and return on the a-88 would be fast / accurate enough for virtual instruments, however after a few weeks of using it, I've realised a fully-weighted keyboard is not ideal for VIs and (a few people had mentioned this) unfortunately you are better off with two keyboards - so I think I will need to buy a smaller 2-octave lightweight desktop keyboard to complement the a-88 (for more accurate and easier drums, stacc strings entry etc). 

I don't regret the purchase as ergonomically it is better (computer controls closer on top of the flat-top a-88) and I can now play piano if I need to, but I didn't quite realise that what works for one will not necessarily work for all.


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## Rodney Money

My Akai MPK88 just came 15 minutes ago!


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## colony nofi

I'm in the A-88 camp (I also use the a-800 and a-500pro's in different circumstances). Would have gone an S88 if they were around when I got the A-88, if only for some of the configuration options. But for an "ok" piano player, this does me well enough.
And was a huge step up from my old technics P-30..... (which to be fair had done a LOT of touring as well as studio duty...)
I either use faders on an a-800/500, or korg nano for midi CC. Am looking into other alternatives....


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## Selfinflicted

N.Caffrey said:


> Opinions on the arturia keylab 88?



There have been lots of reviews of this if you do a search on this site.

My own experience - QA was a big issue for awhile, but they're improving. My first unit lasted about 9 months then started sending weird/false CC data. They were a bit unresponsive/slow in dealing with the RMA, but ultimately they sent a new unit to me - factory sealed, new software, everything. That unit was vastly improved from the original line in terms of QA and durability. I've had no issues since. The software included is nice and you get several licenses per piece of software. It is a nice controller for me and I've had lots over the years and or worked places that had most keyboards. Only ones mentioned in this thread so far I haven't used are the Physis lines and the NI keyboards.

Action is a pretty standard Fatar hammer action - along the lines of the VMK 188+. The key bed is not particularly noisy - people who experience that probably have bad/older units. You want a loud key bed, check out the Akai MPK 88 (generally nice controller, but extremely loud and clunky). Software for setting this controller up is very nice - very quick to use.

If you're interested in the Keylab88, I'd make sure to get one that was manufactured in 2016. They have manufacture dates on them. They seemed to have sorted out more of the QA issues by then.


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