# Orchestral and synthetic?



## southnorth (Feb 6, 2011)

OK, so I'm trying to find a unique sales point for my music. I've many years experience with synthesisers and sound design. Is this something all you guys have too? Or is this something special? That is, scores based on orchestral music with custom synthesised sounds / pure synthesised scores?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 6, 2011)

The more arrows in your quiver, the more work opportunities you will have.

The new Tron soundtrack is loaded with cues that combine electronic and acoustic sounds, and Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross' soundtrack for The Social Network is up for an Oscar, so I would say that scores that use some synths are still in demand.


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## Ed (Feb 6, 2011)

I think that more opportunities exist for synth/hybrid music in media than purely orchestra sound. Of course there's a definite range in-between as well such as 90% orchestra with some sound design thrown in, but it seems to me that synth/hybrid music seems to appeal to a wider audience in terms of marketing.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 6, 2011)

As a composer, I just think it is more interesting to write for. Even back in the 80's, guys like Goldsmith, who had big orchestras, nonetheless utilized sounds that only synths could do because they recognized the creative possibilities.

All the more reason why guys like most of us who are stuck with using sample libraries (mostly) for our orchestral palette would want to integrate synth sounds, since samples still can not and IMHO will never be able to bring to the table all that a room full of great players can bring.


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## lux (Feb 6, 2011)

it depends.

If youre into classic/retro electronica then it will be a minus if you try to blend it with your music and sell it. Actually all people i've dealt with do hate every classic electronica or new analog hint into your music. 

Lets say you have a wonderful track and you just place a synth line which you think it fits nicely a certain passage, then your track is dead. 

Only synths allowed in todays sellable music are (by overabused words):

- "Raging" synths with a distorted/industrial sound

- "Organic" synths. How much i hate this words cant be said. Actually under the world "organic" every mangled/granularish/pulsating crap is allowed. 

- Pads and athmosphere

- Cut off basses with nothing happening above 300-400Hz

All the rest is, with an incomprensible blind attitude, completely off-limits.

There is an inner beauty in traitional synths, sometimes plain waveforms and the way theyre used. But the world of production music just hates it, no matter how you try to manage things musically.

Simply avoid placing everything out of the above said categories and you'll be fine. Most of us learned that a long time ago.

BUT...

Still, there's a world where a way broader range of sounds can be used, and its recording world. Massive bands like Lcd Soundsystem, Moby, Muse, Digitalism (just a few names which come randomly), even young bands like Owl city show some good love for synthesis. Retro which contributes to create a modern sound.

Luca


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## Ashermusic (Feb 6, 2011)

lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> it depends.
> 
> If youre into classic/retro electronica then it will be a minus if you try to blend it with your music and sell it. Actually all people i've dealt with do hate every classic electronica or new analog hint into your music.
> 
> ...



Luca, I don't know who you are talking about selling to, whether trailers, libraries, etc. but certainly in doing film and TV scores, I have not encountered that attitude.


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## lux (Feb 6, 2011)

actually the composers which start their career doing film or tv scores arent exactly a big plethora, aint them?

A "score" is something you dont start with. It is somthing you arrive to. If youre lucky. Thats how it works today. I dunno how it worked some time ago, maybe that was different.

So most likely the OP will deal with libraries. Which have exactly attitude and needs which i have described above.

Being free to be an artist is something very difficult to achieve today. Expecially if youre none and have to build everything from scratch in your career.


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## rJames (Feb 6, 2011)

lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> it depends.
> 
> If youre into classic/retro electronica then it will be a minus if you try to blend it with your music and sell it. Actually all people i've dealt with do hate every classic electronica or new analog hint into your music.
> 
> ...



Hey, Luca. This sounds more like a personal rant than a constructive comment to me. And I say that with all due respect. (I mean that sincerely)

You paint all music supervisors, producers, directors etc with a broad brush.

I have to admit that I don't even know what classic/retro electronica even is, so you may be right.

But if there is anything that I have learned in the relatively few years I have been in this business is that the "buyer" is the one you have to please. And usually the "buyer" has the styles that the public have been enjoying at the front of his mind.

Style is so important. You can be an innovator of style, which few have the ability to do, or you can hear (or analyze) what is happening and join in. People have been analyzing scores for centuries. Its been pretty easy to hear what instrument is playing what part (that is a relative statement). But now we have to try to hear what a programmer has created in his synthetic world be it use of stuttering devices, layers and layers of analogue sounds from Omnisphere etc or organic, granular, echodelayed textures.

But it is all a part of style. And style is #1. (somewhat sad to say)

So the OP is left with the same dilemma as we all are; what is selling? What defines, "what is selling?" Where should I look? Who should I listen to? Should I take the risk to just define my own style? Is anyone listening to my style? Is my style any good or am I a bad self-critique? Am I just like one of those superstars who try out for American Idol who swear (literally) on the way out that the panel of judges don't know their crass from a hole in the ground?


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## lux (Feb 6, 2011)

no Ron, this is not a personal rant to be honest.

Its just how hings work. If you were a bit into those styles you would probably agree with me.

I'm being much more constructive that you think here. As i'm givin, for once, a sincere and hope useful advise. 

Telling the OP that he will be able to put his own synth background, whatever style it envolves, means bulshitting him/her and i dont think its fair.

If you like me to talk about personal style, fantasy and artistic matters, i'm open and happy, as i think you know my approach to music and how much i love it. But lets not give unrealistic advises. Imo.


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## rJames (Feb 6, 2011)

Right, but my point is that you cannot ever impose your "style" on a client who does not want it.

You are probably not going to get too far by doing your scores according to a 50's do wop style either (OK, OK, I don't know my style names).

Nor, for that matter, a 40's noir style of orchestrating.

We must all notice that clean straightforward retro/classic analog synth lines are not conducive to selling music (if that is the case)... then move on.

In my personal opinion, what you are missing is that any synth sound is not good or bad, useable or not useable, acceptable or not acceptable. The way it is used, is what it is all about.

Otherwise, Omnisphere would not have all those older analog sounds in it. No one would be trying to emulate the classic analog synth sound. But we know that it is the holy grail.

I'm just saying that it is not so much about "raging, atmospheric, or drone-like" sounds as it is about how they are put together... where they are used.

Moreover, I am telling the OP that it is not definable by this group at VI but more by his or her own ear and stylistic use.

I'm with the majority here that says integration of synths and orch is widely acceptable and maybe preferrable to a sampled orchestra.

I say it is more about style than about the particular ensemble.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 6, 2011)

lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> actually the composers which start their career doing film or tv scores arent exactly a big plethora, aint them?
> 
> A "score" is something you dont start with. It is somthing you arrive to. If youre lucky. Thats how it works today. I dunno how it worked some time ago, maybe that was different.
> 
> ...



Luca, once again, please be more specific about what kind of potential clients you are talking about that are resistant to this, because here in LA at least, I do not see this.


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## lux (Feb 6, 2011)

Ron I see what you mean, but thing is, if you hide analogue sounds behind a certain usage which involves not exposing them or having them in a very peculiar mangled form, youre not really using a synth background but youre using synthesis to obtain a certain final result which, more or less, you could achieve just buying a well furnished library and spend a fraction of the time.

Thats what i mean that this can be discussed while being a bit into the style and tools used. If you take a listen to some of the bands i mentioned above you'll find what i mean for using analogue synth sounds. 

And, i rest my case, its not an option if youre goin to sell music. 


Jay, if you know any library which gladly accepts and sells actively music which involves exposed classic synthesis well, my pm space is free. But i suspect that will prolly not happen.

I dunno why things, which are absolutely standard in private conversations between musicians cannot be said in public.

Anyway, ok, you win, find your own style, be great, be fun...

and just use the stuff I listed above 

Luca


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## Ashermusic (Feb 6, 2011)

lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> Jay, if you know any library which gladly accepts and sells actively music which involves exposed classic synthesis well, my pm space is free. But i suspect that will prolly not happen.
> 
> I dunno why things, which are absolutely standard in private conversations between musicians cannot be said in public.
> 
> ...



Luca, I was not criticizing you, just trying to learn what your specific experience is because it surprises me. I am not writing for any libraries but I have several friends who are and they are definitely mixing orchestral instruments with synth sounds.


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## lux (Feb 6, 2011)

Jay I understand. But "synth" is not a strict self defined word as you and Ron seem to imply.

I expressely written in my first posts that using synths is allowed, assumed they carefully stay within those usages.

So basically more than half (and i'm keeping safe) of the synth music history is just cut away because of the above mentioned limitations.

I have to say this is not so devastating as many musical worlds are certainly more wide open minded and interested to a broader range of styles. Also they are more interested to "create" trends than just "adhere".

Just to mention one, advertising music has "quirky retro" or "retro chic" or "chip sound" styles, just to mention a few, which are commonly used pretty high in the food chain. And thats very nice.

Also if youre producing a band you can feel free to use an ob-x all over your song as nobody will chime in with some "nice track, but would u mind getting rid of those synths?"

So, i'm specifically referring to library writing and a good part of modern tv/film writing. 

Of course there are exceptions. My current avatar and the kids TV show it comes from is an example

Luca


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## Barrie B (Feb 7, 2011)

lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> I expressely written in my first posts that using synths is allowed, Luca



Glad we cleared that up.

B


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## bryla (Feb 7, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> The more arrows in your quiver, the more work opportunities you will have.


+10.... or 12


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## Barrie B (Feb 7, 2011)

lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> Of course there are exceptions. My current avatar and the kids TV show it comes from is an example
> 
> Luca



Excuse my confusion, but in what sense is 'Yo Gabba Gabba' an exception?

best


Barrie


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## lux (Feb 7, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Sun Feb 06 said:


> lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay I understand. But "synth" is not a strict self defined word as you and Ron seem to imply.
> ...



Thanks Jay, well of course is a limited personal and some buddies related experience applied to library and trailers writing expecially. But thought its maybe relevant to know when one is starting to build some strong points in order to compete on a new market.

I find synths being a bit of a more sensitive point than other instruments, maybe because theyre perceived as "not current" or stuff like that, unless exposed in a fashion i've written above.

Luca


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## Ashermusic (Feb 7, 2011)

lux @ Mon Feb 07 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Feb 06 said:
> 
> 
> > lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:
> ...



You're welcome. The whole point of this forum, I thought, was that we are able discuss things from our personal experience without rancor or disrespect. If that is your experience, I wanted to hear about it, as well as share my own.


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## Barrie B (Feb 7, 2011)

lux @ Mon Feb 07 said:


> Barrie B @ Mon Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > lux @ Sun Feb 06 said:
> ...



Of course!

But you state "Of course there are exceptions. My current avatar and the kids TV show it comes from is an example".

In the UK, and as far as I know in the US, this series is called 'Yo Gabba Gabba'. 

I worked on the English voiced version here in the UK and am obviously interested in why you think this particular series is an exception.

best

Barrie


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## stonzthro (Feb 7, 2011)

WHAT?!? Luca, don't tell me the avatar ISN'T YOU! That's such an awesome picture!


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## Daniel James (Feb 7, 2011)

I'll be honest....to me its all just sound, so I use both sound design and orchestral on equal terms....

But maaan I love me some sound design :D

Dan


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## lux (Feb 7, 2011)

Barrie B @ Mon Feb 07 said:


> lux @ Mon Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Barrie B @ Mon Feb 07 said:
> ...



Well, Barrie, I was a bit surprised while watchin the show, as its retro/micro/chip soundtrack is quite surprising. I have to say that i dig it. And, to me, its pretty uncommon, assumed that even kids shows are fully hit by the plague of "current sounding" mania.

Luca


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## lux (Feb 7, 2011)

stonzthro @ Mon Feb 07 said:


> WHAT?!? Luca, don't tell me the avatar ISN'T YOU! That's such an awesome picture!



of course its me.


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