# Real or fake? (Number 2)



## Maxfabian (Jun 3, 2017)

I recently made a thread called "Real or fake?" and got a lot of good feedback from u guys and decided to make a new Jazz track. My aim is to make the trio sound as real as possible and I used the same libs as in the first thread: Ravenscroft 275 (piano), Trilian upright and VSL Jazz Drums. 
What do you guys think? And what can I improv? 
Hope u enjoy the track and feedback are appreciated.

Cheers


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## Rob (Jun 3, 2017)

I like your piano playing very much and the Ravenscroft sounds convincing. In the same proportion I hear that you are not a dummer or a bass player... don't take it as a criticism, but that's an area where your track could be improved. Especially since you seem to lean towards an Evansy kind ofstyle... Personally I find the trillian upright to lack variety of attacks, too even and ultimately boring... but probably it also depends on your phrasing


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## markleake (Jun 3, 2017)

I like this, but there could be more syncopation & ad-libbing with the bass for example.


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## re-peat (Jun 3, 2017)

I’m with Rob. And adding to what he said: I feel that a better title for these threads would be ‘Real _and_ fake’ instead of ‘Real _or_ fake?’ — a question which, I fear, can’t but be answered by the latter of the two descriptions —, because that’s what these tracks offer: on the one (and very generous) hand, there’s the impressive and thoroughly enjoyable reality of Max, very fine piano player and captivating improviser, but on the other, there’s that undeniable fakeness of the jazz trio emulation.
Put simply: the ‘trio thing’ in both this and the previous track doesn’t work (neither musically nor mockup-wise): whatever the bass and the drums contribute never supports or matches, let alone interacts with, your piano playing. And that’s not just a musical problem, it’s also the main reason why the illusion doesn’t illude.

A small mix-related comment: as with the earlier track, to my ears, the piano appears again to be positioned behind the bass and the drums in your mixes. There’s no rule that says that it shouldn’t be (although it’s definitely not the standard way of presenting a jazz trio, as I’m sure you know), but if you were to put the piano in front of the bass and the drums — give the piano slightly less room response, and the other two a bit more —, it would at least be one small step in masking the fake and unsatisfactory presence of the virtual bass a bit. The drums, I’m afraid, are beyond such salvation. They require far more drastic measures.

Still, having said all that, the sheer quality — and reality — that you bring to these tracks as a piano player is of such convincing power, that the absence of anything comparable in the other ingredients of the music is easily, gladly and even gratefully digested. In short: thanks for both these tracks. Very nice work.

_


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## lux (Jun 4, 2017)

Yup, thanks for sharing it Max, definitely nice.

I was wondering how this would sound with Paolo's (Fluffyaudio) upright bass, which sounds less emphatized and rounded on the low range and a bit more raw-sounding to me, which I personally appreciate. Just curious.


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## Maxfabian (Jun 4, 2017)

Rob said:


> I like your piano playing very much and the Ravenscroft sounds convincing. In the same proportion I hear that you are not a dummer or a bass player... don't take it as a criticism, but that's an area where your track could be improved. Especially since you seem to lean towards an Evansy kind ofstyle... Personally I find the trillian upright to lack variety of attacks, too even and ultimately boring... but probably it also depends on your phrasing


Thanks for listening and giving me some of your thoughts! I absolutely agree, the bass and drums could of course improve. I don't really know about any other bass libraries, do you have any suggestion for upright bass? Glad you liked the piano playing

Cheers!


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## Rob (Jun 4, 2017)

Maxfabian said:


> Thanks for listening and giving me some of your thoughts! I absolutely agree, the bass and drums could of course improve. I don't really know about any other bass libraries, do you have any suggestion for upright bass? Glad you liked the piano playing
> 
> Cheers!



there are many alternatives, like the Straight Ahead upright bass, or the Premier, one of re-peat's favorites... I've also got the Trilogy, ancestor of trillian, but couldn't make good use of it. I sometimes use the old Larry Seyer bass, originally for gigastudio. Here's an excerpt of a demo I did years ago with Piano in blue and Seyer:

http://www.robertosoggetti.com/EverythingILoveBE-trimmed.wav (www.robertosoggetti.com/EverythingILoveBE-trimmed.wav)


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## Maxfabian (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks 


Rob said:


> there are many alternatives, like the Straight Ahead upright bass, or the Premier, one of re-peat's favorites... I've also got the Trilogy, ancestor of trillian, but couldn't make good use of it. I sometimes use the old Larry Seyer bass, originally for gigastudio. Here's an excerpt of a demo I did years ago with Piano in blue and Seyer:
> 
> http://www.robertosoggetti.com/EverythingILoveBE-trimmed.wav (www.robertosoggetti.com/EverythingILoveBE-trimmed.wav)



Thanks for the suggestions! And the snippet I heard from your track was really nice. Well played! I like the style, I got a early Herbie Hancock feel, tanks for shearing! Maybe I will go with the Premier next track, really liked that sound from the demos. 

Cheers


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## Maxfabian (Jun 5, 2017)

re-peat said:


> I’m with Rob. And adding to what he said: I feel that a better title for these threads would be ‘Real _and_ fake’ instead of ‘Real _or_ fake?’ — a question which, I fear, can’t but be answered by the latter of the two descriptions —, because that’s what these tracks offer: on the one (and very generous) hand, there’s the impressive and thoroughly enjoyable reality of Max, very fine piano player and captivating improviser, but on the other, there’s that undeniable fakeness of the jazz trio emulation.
> Put simply: the ‘trio thing’ in both this and the previous track doesn’t work (neither musically nor mockup-wise): whatever the bass and the drums contribute never supports or matches, let alone interacts with, your piano playing. And that’s not just a musical problem, it’s also the main reason why the illusion doesn’t illude.
> 
> A small mix-related comment: as with the earlier track, to my ears, the piano appears again to be positioned behind the bass and the drums in your mixes. There’s no rule that says that it shouldn’t be (although it’s definitely not the standard way of presenting a jazz trio, as I’m sure you know), but if you were to put the piano in front of the bass and the drums — give the piano slightly less room response, and the other two a bit more —, it would at least be one small step in masking the fake and unsatisfactory presence of the virtual bass a bit. The drums, I’m afraid, are beyond such salvation. They require far more drastic measures.
> ...



Thank you so much for taking the time listening, and give me such deep feedback. I really appreciate it 
I totally hear what you say and I am glad to hear that you like the piano playing. I will try your mixing advice and when it comes to the drums it is really hard to get it sound realistic... for me, I have to practice my layering shops! 
Maybe you are right about the title as well... real and fake. I liked that! 
I was listening to the Premier demos and liked it a lot. Rob mentioned it was your favorit library concerning upright bass. Do you have any tracks u would like to shear using the Premier? It would be nice to hear 

Cheers mate!


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## TGV (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm no jazz expert, but it sounds damn fine to me. The piano sounds a bit "congested" in the lower mids, more than the bass and drums, perhaps a result of the chosen mics or reverb. I liked the part around 1:50 where the bass plays the melody. It sounded a bit off, as if the players felt a bit ill at ease, but it worked for me.


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## PeterJCroissant (Jun 5, 2017)

really enjoyed it...liked it more when the off beat hi hat came in...i just think the beginning needed a pulse..perhaps on the ride...but other wise sounds fab..


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## Rob (Jun 5, 2017)

Maxfabian said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions! And the snippet I heard from your track was really nice. Well played! I like the style, I got a early Herbie Hancock feel, tanks for shearing! Maybe I will go with the Premier next track, really liked that sound from the demos.
> ...


From your avatar, I'd take for granted you were a Bill Evans connoisseur  that was a transcription of his solo on "everything I love"


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## Maxfabian (Jun 5, 2017)

Rob said:


> From your avatar, I'd take for granted you were a Bill Evans connesseur  that was a transcription of his solo on "everything I love"



Haha, thats nice! Yes, I am deeply in love with Bill Evans way of approaching the piano, like many others!


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## Maxfabian (Jun 5, 2017)

lux said:


> Yup, thanks for sharing it Max, definitely nice.
> 
> I was wondering how this would sound with Paolo's (Fluffyaudio) upright bass, which sounds less emphatized and rounded on the low range and a bit more raw-sounding to me, which I personally appreciate. Just curious.



Thanks for listening "lux", glad u liked it. I listened to the demos of Fluffyaudio upright bass and did like the sound. Thanks for the suggestion!

Cheers


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## Maxfabian (Jul 5, 2017)

TGV said:


> I'm no jazz expert, but it sounds damn fine to me. The piano sounds a bit "congested" in the lower mids, more than the bass and drums, perhaps a result of the chosen mics or reverb. I liked the part around 1:50 where the bass plays the melody. It sounded a bit off, as if the players felt a bit ill at ease, but it worked for me.



You actually right about that, I have had some hard time geting the piano sound right. So it is interesting you mentioned that. Needs a little bit more fiddling though. Thanks for listening anyway Glad u liked it!

Cheers


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## ryans (Jul 5, 2017)

Hard to analyze it.. Your tasteful lines are extremely distracting, great playing 

Ryan


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## Maxfabian (Jul 6, 2017)

ryans said:


> Hard to analyze it.. Your tasteful lines are extremely distracting, great playing
> 
> Ryan



Ahh.. u make me blush! Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it 

Cheers


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