# Making Generative Music In Reaper



## Erick - BVA (Feb 27, 2021)

I explained some of the processes involved in how I made a livestream of Brian Eno's Discreet Music. 
I also show how you can make it more complex (have to watch 'til the end...sorry). 



I think I was too close to the mic. I hate hearing my nose whistle.


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## rotho (Feb 27, 2021)

Cool. I do a lot of stuff like this in Pure data and Max


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 27, 2021)

I've heard of those mediums. I haven't been able to use them myself. I've been using Reaper for about 7 years now so I guess it's all I know


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## pondinthestream (Feb 27, 2021)

Nice piece in the end but reminds me why I left Reaper for Bitwig and S1 to make generative music.


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## companyofquail (Feb 27, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> Nice piece in the end but reminds me why I left Reaper for Bitwig and S1 to make generative music.


would you mind to expound on this a bit? just curious as i like making generative music but do most of it with reaktor blocks or hardware modular. i just switched to studio one and am liking it a lot. i dont like it as much as cubase but its the best option i have tried that doesnt need a dongle.


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## HeliaVox (Feb 27, 2021)

Bitwig's Grid is a generative dream-maker. 
Search out Polarity Music or TÂCHES TEACHES on you tube. 
They both have several videos on how to make generative devices. 
It's BRILLIANT.

To the original poster: I don't use Reaper, but this video was really informative and quite enjoyable. Thanks!


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## pondinthestream (Feb 28, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> would you mind to expound on this a bit? just curious as i like making generative music but do most of it with reaktor blocks or hardware modular. i just switched to studio one and am liking it a lot. i dont like it as much as cubase but its the best option i have tried that doesnt need a dongle.


Bitwig is made for generative music, the modulation etc get better and better the more you use them and start to understand the flexibilty. . S1 also has an excellent coherent design and setting up targets for modulation is pretty good. But you need midi devices to modulate and S1 is not as comprehensive as Bitwig out of the box. But both are vastly better than Reaper in terms of coherent design and, certainly for me, stability with vsts like Kontakt.
And of course modulating synths is very good as well. Lately i have been using soniclab stuuf. Difficult but worth unde standing


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 28, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> Nice piece in the end but reminds me why I left Reaper for Bitwig and S1 to make generative music.


Thanks!
There's far more I did not show here which is possible with using a combination of midi tools, so I'd be interested to know exactly how these other platforms are better.
I'm guessing there's more visual feedback to what you're doing? Stuff like that?




HeliaVox said:


> Bitwig's Grid is a generative dream-maker.
> Search out Polarity Music or TÂCHES TEACHES on you tube.
> They both have several videos on how to make generative devices.
> It's BRILLIANT.
> ...


Hey thanks! Glad you got something out of it.

I watched this video  and actually found this somewhat limiting (at least ostensibly). Can you load virtual instruments (or just the default sounds in Grid?). I like being able to use pianos, strings, and pretty much anything I want. I've watched videos by Bitwig themselves and I'm still seeing only the synth sounds within grid being used as well.

So far I'm seeing just a different way of doing things, and a different workflow. Some things are just semantics and some things are visualized differently, even if you're technically doing the same things.
So if Reaper forces you to think in a way you don't like, then it's probably not for you lol 
I've just been using it for so long I like the way it works. There may even be generative tools made for reaper that I don't even know about as well. I'm pretty new to generative music creation - even if I've been a fan of Eno since I was a teen.

I guess all I care about is the end product and whatever helps me acheive the sound I want


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 28, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> would you mind to expound on this a bit? just curious as i like making generative music but do most of it with reaktor blocks or hardware modular. i just switched to studio one and am liking it a lot. i dont like it as much as cubase but its the best option i have tried that doesnt need a dongle.


I really need to use Reaktor more.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 28, 2021)

I'm also curious what reaper can't do that these other daws can. 

Reaper can get pretty silly in general, and extensions just add to the silliness that reaper can do - fwiw.


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## companyofquail (Feb 28, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm also curious what reaper can't do that these other daws can.
> 
> Reaper can get pretty silly in general, and extensions just add to the silliness that reaper can do - fwiw.


On the most basic level at any price point bitwig has built in modulation inside each plugin instance that is very easy to use and has a lot of options.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 28, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> On the most basic level at any price point bitwig has built in modulation inside each plugin instance that is very easy to use and has a lot of options.



Modulating parameters in reaper is extremely powerful and can even control parameters between plugins and from external inputs. 

If you really wanted to get fancy with it you could also just make a midi lane. There's absolutely nothing shown that isn't achievable with reaper in it's base state. 

IMHO it's much easier to say what another daw can do than can't do, because you never know if the DAW has that functionality.


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## companyofquail (Feb 28, 2021)

Sorry I should edit my post a bit more to reflect that I was just tying to say that the way bitwig does it is very easy and part of the immediate interface. And as you said before, I did not know reaper did this and no one had ever told me it did. Thanks for the heads up.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 28, 2021)

companyofquail said:


> Sorry I should edit my post a bit more to reflect that I was just tying to say that the way bitwig does it is very easy and part of the immediate interface. And as you said before, I did not know reaper did this and no one had ever told me it did. Thanks for the heads up.


Well like most things are the reaper, sometimes it can be a little more complicated but that extra complication almost always results in more flexibility and power. 

That said, it's typically as easy as right click and it'll show the parameter modulation menu. 

I had a pretty wild example on twitch but they don't keep clips that long so I can't really link it


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## Markrs (Feb 28, 2021)

I like how visual Bitwig is but the update model stops me from being more than interested in it.


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## pondinthestream (Feb 28, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I like how visual Bitwig is but the update modal stops me from being more than interested in it.


The strategy apparently is to buy an update when on sale and activate it later on when you feel it is worth it. Apparently you can bank updates I have not had to do that yet


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## pondinthestream (Feb 28, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Modulating parameters in reaper is extremely powerful and can even control parameters between plugins and from external inputs.
> 
> If you really wanted to get fancy with it you could also just make a midi lane. There's absolutely nothing shown that isn't achievable with reaper in it's base state.
> 
> IMHO it's much easier to say what another daw can do than can't do, because you never know if the DAW has that functionality.


How would you set an lfo to modulate a parameter then modulate that lfo with another lfo that is also modulating some other parameters as well?


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 28, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> How would you set an lfo to modulate a parameter then modulate that lfo with another lfo that is also modulating some other parameters as well?


Pretty sure you can do that in Reaper. I am still learning things myself. But modulation in general is something that I'm new to regardless of DAW, so I wouldn't be the best person to answer this.


Markrs said:


> I like how visual Bitwig is but the update model stops me from being more than interested in it.


I personally like when I get less visual feedback sometimes. I feel more like I'm trying to make the sound work, and not depending on the visuals. I guess it makes me think of one time when Debussy composed a piece of music without his piano

He did have the sheet music as a "visual" but I guess I was just thinking of less feedback in general as the example. You kind of approach things differently. Not necessarily better though. A way to change things up.


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 28, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> How would you set an lfo to modulate a parameter then modulate that lfo with another lfo that is also modulating some other parameters as well?


How do you want to modulate the lfo with the lfo? 

Where there is a will, there is a way


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## pondinthestream (Feb 28, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> How do you want to modulate the lfo with the lfo?
> 
> Where there is a will, there is a way


How would you do it tho, the simplest way. In Bitwig it is straigjtforward,


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 28, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> How would you do it tho, the simplest way. In Bitwig it is straigjtforward,


A number of possibilities but you haven't answered how you want an lfo to modulate the other lfo so idk


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## pondinthestream (Feb 28, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> A number of possibilities but you haven't answered how you want an lfo to modulate the other lfo so idk


i dont understand what the issue is - one lfo modulates the other lfo in whatever way is available - say the frequency or the phase or the shape or the amplitude - whatever. n Eriks video he shows the reaper LFO parameter modulation. How would I modulate the LFO speed (just one example) with another LFO?


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 28, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> i dont understand what the issue is - one lfo modulates the other lfo in whatever way is available - say the frequency or the phase or the shape or the amplitude - whatever. n Eriks video he shows the reaper LFO parameter modulation. How would I modulate the LFO speed (just one example) with another LFO?



Hmm honestly if I'm going to create something that worbly I'd probably use a single midi lfo plugin and modulate it's parameters that way, then I could put lfos on any/all of it's controls, and use the midi generated to control whatever parameters. 

I can make a video if needed, even though I've never done this, wouldn't be difficult -abliet it's a creative solution rather than the simplest, but that's a poor way to view it, as if you're trying to modulate a parameter with an lfo that's being modulated by another lfo, simple is history


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## pondinthestream (Feb 28, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Hmm honestly if I'm going to create something that worbly I'd probably use a single midi lfo plugin and modulate it's parameters that way, then I could put lfos on any/all of it's controls, and use the midi generated to control whatever parameters.
> 
> I can make a video if needed, even though I've never done this, wouldn't be difficult -abliet it's a creative solution rather than the simplest, but that's a poor way to view it, as if you're trying to modulate a parameter with an lfo that's being modulated by another lfo, simple is history


Really easy in Bitwig and the result is visualised and easy to comprehend


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 28, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> Really easy in Bitwig and the result is visualised and easy to comprehend


Okay, anybody with above a room temperature IQ can figure it out, so I'm not sure easier matters here

In any use case that this matters, the sound design in the intricacy of what you're making is exactly part of the appeal, so making it's slightly easier doesn't have a significant impact. 

There's nothing difficult for complicated about reaper modulation, It just comes with less flashy graphics


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 28, 2021)

I just did this real quick, just to show you about a billion things being modulated by each other. 

I can go more in depth but I'm currently working ~72 hours a week, I'm getting off a 12 hour shift, and I can't remember my last day off - so I'm barely functioning as an adult.


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## pondinthestream (Feb 28, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I just did this real quick, just to show you about a billion things being modulated by each other.
> 
> I can go more in depth but I'm currently working ~72 hours a week, I'm getting off a 12 hour shift, and I can't remember my last day off - so I'm barely functioning as an adult.



Thanks for going to that effort. Again, reminds me why I only use Reaper for audio editing now. Very clunky compared to the more coherent designed softwares. But works, so that is good.


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## Erick - BVA (Feb 28, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> Thanks for going to that effort. Again, reminds me why I only use Reaper for audio editing now. Very clunky compared to the more coherent designed softwares. But works, so that is good.


Yeah I think it really comes down to preference and what you know. 
Bitwig is great I'm sure, but I've already tried learning new DAWs in the past and I think I personally just prefer reaper, and it may be partly because it's what I started with.
Thanks for the bitwig info though.


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## gnapier (Jan 7, 2022)

Erik - Thank you so much for this video. It's very thoughtful. 

I'm learning Reaper after many years of owning it but shying away from it - largely because the amount of options and customization were intimidating. Videos like this are really appreciated because it helps me to "wrap my head" around a different way of creating the types of pieces I make in Bitwig or Live. That by itself is valuable because it forces me to see things in a different way.

The technique is solid and can be applied in other DAWs (like Studio One) with some modifications also.

I just wanted to say thanks.

Cheers


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