# Tonality / Key signature



## jensos (Oct 21, 2013)

I known this is not the deepest question in the world, but I'm quite mystified about what factors determine the key signature one chooses for a new composition. What I mean is, right at the beginning, when you sit down at the piano (and, much more so, when you sit down with an empty sheet of score paper), what makes you pick the specific key you end up using? I increasingly ask myselft this question about the great film scores I study.

Years ago I sat in a lecture given by one of the more well-known film composers in Germany who went on and on about the psychological effects of the different key signatures. At the time I dismissed that theory as totally invalid when postulated as a set of general rules because people have different perceptions. And who keeps a list that maps key signatures to moods? But to this day I wonder what drives the decision. In practice.

I can think of the following factors, and would be very interested in any additional ideas or comments:

(i) Surely most people have preferred keys, especially when improvising on an instrument. I know I always prefer the left hand side of the circle of fifts. But this is quite restrictive, isnt't it? I recall a statement like "F major is always beautiful" (or Bb?) from one of the videos by Mike Patti. I guess something like this plays some role most of the time.

(ii) Of course any given key conveys a certain mood and you probably know what effect you want before you start. But I really think this is subjective and your audience may feel differently. And often, when going through the experiment of transposing (or pitch-shifting) a finished piece or a complete sketch, I find it hard to justify my initial decision for that given key. But I absolutely _hate_ doing this experiment because it just feels weird and unnatural, manipulating existing music in this way - even if it's just for the sake of learning.

(iii) Orchestration-wise, I guess the key can make a difference when you want a melody to fit nicely into a solo instrument's comfort range. But who can plan that far in advance, especially in improv-style composing? And going back to change the key for that? Unlikely, I guess.

(iv) Unexplicable intuition that puts your fingers in the "right" positions on the keyboard?

And why does key even have the great influence that it has, even if you don't have absolute pitch? 
Any thoughts? - Or should I just try not to be so scientific about this?
Sorry if this is trivial...

Thanks,
Jens
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## bbunker (Oct 21, 2013)

You talked about how you discarded your earlier professors' comments on key signature as being one person's thoughts, and how everyone hears things differently, etc.

I would disagree, to some degree, and here's why.

Everyone but the very young or those physically unable to hear have heard Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, and most would respond to you quoting the motif from that first movement, probably saying that they 'know' that piece. Obviously composers and musicians have a deeper 'knowledge' of it, but the general population at large, be they plumbers, architects or sailors 'knows' that piece.

Now, to get linguistic, and I apologize if this is only true in the english speaking world, but if I say "To Be or Not to be," most people would 'know' not only the quote, but many would know the source, possibly to a great extent. But even those who only have a passing acquaintance with Rousseau would respond to some degree if I say "Man is born free, but everywhere he lies in chains." What this tells me is that even though your average person couldn't recite vast stretches of 'The Social Contract', that the opening quote is in the general conscience.

So, back to music. Does your average person know that Beethoven's Fifth is in C minor, or that C minor was used by Beethoven and has been carried on to be a key of heroic overcoming? Does that average 'Joe' know that Beethoven's Ninth, the Art of the Fugue, Bruckner's Ninth, Mozart's Requiem and Bach's Chaconne were all in D minor? For that matter, do they know that the grandness of scale of these pieces is also reflected in Hans Zimmer's "stubborn" (not my words, I assure you!) emphasis on the key of D minor?

And speaking of Mozart, G minor and tragedy; I personally can't play a G minor chord without kind of wanting to play that Eb neighboring tone and recalling the tragic landscape of his 40th symphony. Is that thought shared by someone who doesn't play an instrument?

I would say yes and no. Saying that your average person doesn't understand why G-minor is "Tragic" and C-minor is "Heroic" misses the point, because one doesn't need to understand why, only to allow it to happen. I don't need to 'know' that mankind responds more directly and emotionally to scent to 'know' that a hint of vanilla and amber will transport me directly to my first years of graduate study and a percussionist that I had a huge crush on. It just happens, and I appreciate either aspect of it. I would say the same is true of key centers.

Here's a question that I would take very seriously: if key centers had meaning and identity to great composers from Bach to Mahler (why does the Fifth go from C-sharp minor to D major if not to echo the change from personal struggle to all-inclusive, everyman overcoming?!?) then why not echo that ourselves, and see where it takes us? If it worked for them, surely it can't hurt to try, could it?

Maybe not. Maybe with equal temperament none of this matters. But maybe...if you DO have all those associations built up in your mind and you play into them, maybe it'll free you up to do greater things. It seems to have for Herr Zimmer and D minor!

If you're out there, Hans, I would absolutely LOVE to know what you think about keys and how you choose them. I promise I wouldn't swoon too much...


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## rgames (Oct 21, 2013)

The notion that certain keys have associated moods has been around a long time.

Unfortunately it must be wrong. 

Here's the proof: pitch references have steadily increased throughout the history of music. What we call F today was probably more like E at some point in the past, and maybe even Eb at some other time and location.

Therefore, if C minor was "heroic" at some point, that key would have to be replaced by B minor at some point because the frequencies associated with B minor became what were the frequencies associated with C minor and what people *hear* are the frequencies, not the written notes. Since there is no indication that such a change has occurred, the proposition that keys have associated moods must be wrong.

QED

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 21, 2013)

We had this same discussion before, and it's like we never had it.


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## Stephen Baysted (Oct 21, 2013)

Over and above the (historically) arbitrary nature of pitch - Richard, pitch was much higher *and* much lower simultaneously in Europe pre 1900 than the so-called A=440 standard (depended upon city, country, and local priorities); even today some european cities exhibit differences from one another (Prague for example). 

However, where key (and indeed mode) was concerned, systems of tuning were *far* more important and governed the choice of key. Before the widespread adoption of equal temperament, each key (within a given tuning system) had its own character since the intervals in each key were different to other keys. And by extension, dissonances were more or less pungent and consonances more or less stable in different keys depending upon the priorities of the 'tuner'. 

It's no accident that, for example, Mozart favoured A major for all his operatic seduction arias. Explore contemporaneous tuning systems in the 18th and 19th centuries and you'll see why.

The issue that faces the sample based composer is that many sample libraries are equally tempered, whereas none of the real orchestral counterparts is (piano theoretically excepted).


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## bbunker (Oct 21, 2013)

rgames @ Mon Oct 21 said:


> The notion that certain keys have associated moods has been around a long time.
> 
> Unfortunately it must be wrong.
> 
> ...



I have to disagree with you and any physics-based analysis of this.

In brief, you're saying that C minor itself has changed, so if the frequencies of the component parts of C minor affect us now, then it must be in a different way to what was once called C minor because the frequencies associated with those notes have changed, and so the direct response of the brain couldn't possibly be the same. The problem is that we're talking about two different things.

I never said that the human brain is programmed to think of C minor as heroic. Far from it.

How did Beethoven come to find C minor heroic? Was it because the frequency of Eb resonated with a certain part of his brain? Because of the epic nature of the Passacaglia and Fugue, BWV 582? I couldn't care less. It's entirely irrelevant.

I have heard Beethoven played in C minor at A=440. So, the network of associations is there for ME. Not existing as Beethoven or in Beethoven's world, how he heard it is irrelevant, since I hear the performances of Beethoven in my own existence in the particular way that I do.

And having seen the music on the printed page, and on the keyboard, there's a significant psychological layer built up, so that Beethoven's C-minor is a visual C-minor based upon notation, the arrangement of notes in the key on the piano and on fretboards, to go along with that sonic information.

Ultimately, I'm suggesting that trying to think about one's response to music by way of pure physics misses the point at a most basic level. I don't respond to the frequencies of 261, 311 and 392 hz at all, I respond to the social, cultural, historical and psychological phenomena that I have been conditioned to associate with the notes attached to those frequencies.


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## jensos (Oct 22, 2013)

Thank you very much for your input, guys. And Nick, sorry if this is a redundant discussion. But for me it is extremely helpful thinking and talking about it.

It makes full sense to me that we, as listeners, are influenced by the music of Beethoven, Mozart and other great masters (also more recent ones) and that, as a result, we may not be as neutral as we may think with respect to the effect different tonalities have on us. 
The (semi-)permanent wiring in our brains that results from this may even be shaped much more by film music where you get the emotional effect of the combination of drama, picture and music, all working together.
Would it be going too far to suggest that whatever key the flying scene in E.T. is written in, gets to be associated with a sense of breaking free, overcoming gravity, if a person watches that scene often enough (which I certainly did)?
If so, verbal descriptions of the meanings of the different key centers could actually make a lot of sense. Here's a random find: http://www.biteyourownelbow.com/keychar.htm

It would be interesting to hear how a child, too young to be influenced very much by the music that we adults have heard countless times and carry around with us in the back of our minds, but old enough to articulate an answer, would respond when asked about the
feelings generated by the same music in specific keys. I'll ask my 7 year old daughter - if she's patient enough with me  

Jens
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## korgscrew (Oct 22, 2013)

I love Charpentier's key descriptions. It seems to suite modern day scores. 

With technology today it's so easy to write in C and then transpose up and down to find a key that suites. 

I normally write in C / C minor / D minor / E major and then transpose to see where the melody sores. It really makes you appreciate the talent that paper writers had back before technology even existed.


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## ScoringFilm (Oct 22, 2013)

You must also consider that certain keys alter the tone/timbre of an instrument simply because of the techniques involved; therefore this creates mood associations.

Justin


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## ed buller (Oct 22, 2013)

Deja vu all over again......

Key makes a difference ...change key...it WILL sound different !

E


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## Daniel White Music (Oct 22, 2013)

Y'all may find this of interest. Pretty clever! https://soundcloud.com/thesignatureseries


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## clarkcontrol (Oct 22, 2013)

ScoringFilm @ Tue Oct 22 said:


> You must also consider that certain keys alter the tone/timbre of an instrument simply because of the techniques involved; therefore this creates mood associations.




This is about as close as I get to agreeing with this superstitious nonsense. 

Tessitura is the most important consideration when choosing key. Furthermore, certain timbre ranges like the clarinet's chalumeau register are extremely limited, so when writing music that needs that sound it is necessary to consider key to adjust for this.

If I'm writing a big band chart, for instance, I start with the shout chorus, adjusting key so that the lead trumpet falls in a range that is suitable for the intended ensemble. If the music is intended for a college ensemble, I can write the lead somewhat higher than for a high school band. Likewise, I look at where the bass notes lay, as finishing a screaming chart on a D chord will usually mean the bass player will be forced to play up further than what I usually like (acoustic bass goes down to E). So then maybe I'll end the chart on a G7#11 so the bass can play lower on the E string, or I'll shift the chart up etc.

If I'm wrting a country or folk song, I'll stick to keys that include a lot of open strings (G, E, A, D etc.) because guitars tend to resonate better when you use those chords.

I can improvise really well on the piano in all twelve keys. It sometimes matters what keys I play in only because of the way my hand fits the shape of the scale etc.

Jazz tunes tend to be written in concert C, F, Bb, Eb. This is because these are easy tenor sax and trumpet keys. If I'm writing a small group tune I will gravitate towards these first, especially if the intended ensemble is younger students.



In summary, there is NO emotional or esoteric connection to key choices, unless it is because you are comfortable with that key for whatever reason. 

I mean, think about it. There's even a joke about it: "d minor is the saddest of all keys" --Nigel Tufnell


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## AC986 (Oct 22, 2013)

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about why a key is chosen. The suggestion here in some quarters is that some of the great classical masters almost chose a key at random. That is obviously a spurious notion.

You pick a key because it feels right. Not necessarily sounds right. Feels right.

The key signature is not an entirely different premise and is all to do with mood linked to key (or part of the way the mood is set) and rhythm.


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## Erik (Oct 22, 2013)

Interesting question and remarks here.

There is a lot to say about this subject apparently. I have made dozens of arrangements of moreover piano music for the Netherlands Guitar Duo (I was 'one of the two') of works of many great composers. Actually I always changed key signatures, mainly because the guitar itself is a transposing instrument (one octave lower), so playing at the written pitch resulted often in a very (unwantedly) gloomy and moody atmosphere. So I transposed many famous pieces a fourth or fifth lower than the actual pitch. We seldom heard anything abouth this specific issue later on, also from piano players, who undoubtly knew all these pieces.

But, but.....there are more possible thoughts about this. Some of them are an argument pro, others con in this context.

- How does the modern pitch of the A at 440 Hz relates to the pitch of that very same A of centuries ago? It was much lower (wasn't if 415 at the time of Bach)? I mean, if Bach (and all his colleagues) would have had an intention with specific key signatures: are we 'missing the point' listening to his works a semitone higher nowadays (if performed on modern instruments of course)?

- How comes that if you play the first chords of Hotel California on guitar in the right key signature even your neighbour will come up with the right answer within 2 seconds, whereas when you play it a minor third higher there is no evident reaction? The same with the first B-minor chords on the guitar of the middle part of the Concerto d'Aranjuez, if I play it lower or higher most people won't have that fast recognition. Apparently some key signatures have something special.

- There are examples of same material of the great composers who just transposed their works if needed for whatever reason. 

Bach with the Prelude in E for solo violin, this returns in a Kantate. Wikipedis tells us:
The Preludio was also transcribed by Bach for solo organ, oboes, trumpets and strings in the opening sinfonia of the cantata Wir danken dir, Gott, wir danken dir, BWV 29 in D major, and was as well used as an introduction to the second part of the cantata Herr Gott, Beherrscher aller Dinge, BWV 120a.

Beethoven transposed his Piano Sonata in E major, Op.14 No.1 into a String Quartet himself, this time in F Major.

The world famous Asturias for guitar solo in E minor was originally for piano solo in G minor, but authorized by Albéniz himself after the first performance on guitar by Migule Llobet: he thought it was even better on the guitar than on the piano.

So, after all, I think, key signature does something on a specific instrument, but changing the instrumentation is a good reason sometimes to change the key signature also. As a classical guitarist I know that some key signatures just sound very dull on a guitar (C major is one of them), so just using the capo on whatever fret usually have a positive result, please note: _whatever other_ fret, the exact position doesn't mind very much after all.

Just my thoughts on this subject.....


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## dgburns (Oct 23, 2013)

clarkcontrol @ Tue Oct 22 said:


> ScoringFilm @ Tue Oct 22 said:
> 
> 
> > You must also consider that certain keys alter the tone/timbre of an instrument simply because of the techniques involved; therefore this creates mood associations.
> ...



So this is about as close an argument in today's world as what any of the master composers of yesterday would have likely been thinking as they went about their business.


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## Ellywu2 (Oct 23, 2013)

I write in F# Maj, because I am a horrible person.


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## ed buller (Oct 23, 2013)

all i know for sure...is that D minor IS the saddest of all.....

FACT


e


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## Ellywu2 (Oct 23, 2013)

True. People weep instantly when they hear it and I don't know why.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Oct 26, 2013)

Gminor makes me all teary... :cry: 

Like this small emotional moment on TDKR (0:27-1:00)


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## korgscrew (Oct 27, 2013)

I always forget how ridiculous batmans voice is.


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