# Single monster or master of the slaves?



## NameOfBand (Apr 4, 2019)

Hi,

Saw a little bit of a video with a composer who said he switched from master-slave setup to one mega HP (I think) computer. What can you imagine would be the benefits? I guess I'ts easier to maintain, and to like have it all in one place. And lower chance of components failing I assume if you run less components simultaneously. What would you say are the biggest benefits? What would be the drawbacks? 

//NoB


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 4, 2019)

Well, the obvious advantage is that you'd only have one machine. If it could handle the same templates, then it makes sense. Plus, it would decrease your electrical bill.


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## NameOfBand (Apr 4, 2019)

I guess... I also guess that if you want bang for your buck slaves would be the way to go


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## dcoscina (Apr 4, 2019)

I never have required a huge template and since I've moved to a newer MP 6,1 loaded with RAM, I have no need to use slaves. I do use VEP to host plug ins if I'm in DP because it STILL cannot handle multiple third party VIs internally without having CPU overload. But LPX handles them like a champ!


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 4, 2019)

I'm cool with one monster machine. I think these days you can run everything you need to run on one machine with a lot of ram. That being said, there can be workflow advantages to using a slave. For one thing you can load up your typical set of instruments on your slave and just leave that machine sitting idle 24/7 ready to go with sounds as if it were just another external keyboard, while your main Daw machine you can reboot or load other software or whatever you want and just connect to the slave when you're ready to work. 

On the other hand, slaves incur extra latency and so forth, and you have a whole machine to configure and administrate, keep up to date...pay for the hardware, etc... ... For me, I am happy to use one machine. If I was Junkie XL I'd probably have several slaves all loaded up with every sample library imaginable and ready to make sound on a moment's notice. But I'm not him and one machine is fine.

I have a small PC slave that I like to use mainly only to hose windows-only plugins occasionally, which isn't often enough to justify buying the license for VEP7 now that VSL has made it more expensive to have more than one VEP server going.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Apr 4, 2019)

NameOfBand said:


> I guess... I also guess that if you want bang for your buck slaves would be the way to go



Not necessarily. Your most powerful machines are typically the slaves, so you're shelling out for two or more computers.....plus extra licences/dongles for certain VI's like VEPro and Play. You could build a 128GB beast i9 Windows machine for $3000-ish and be done with the slaves altogether. I'm personally on the fence; I have a 2013 MacBook Pro along with a Windows i7 2700k slave. Both are getting to the point where I need to think about upgrading, and when I do, I'm going single machine all the way. I can have an i9 built, with 64GB Ram, for around $2000 (using my existing drives). Or....wait until the new Mac Pro comes out see and what those entail, albeit expensive, but powerful.


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## mscp (Apr 7, 2019)

I have left the Apple Computer world for good since I lost hope after they glued the new iMac motherboards to the screen. The way Apple has been treating its customers has been, to be polite, utterly disrespectful and I simply can't be a supporter anymore. Yes, I will miss its pretty interface and luxurious looks, but I have gained a lot more by switching. I would consider returning to the Mac family of computers if they go back to doing business the decent way.

I built a i9-9900k over here and I no longer need a slave computer. Everything is running incredibly smooth over here. I'll add 128gb ram as soon as I can find 32gb sticks in the market - right now I'm on 64gb. Cubase and Pro Tools work like a charm in Windows - maybe sheer luck but I notice they run better than when I had them on MacOS.


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## JohnG (Apr 7, 2019)

Maybe it depends on how you work? If one writes songs, that’s one thing. Full orchestra plus synths plus guitars plus everything else is demanding in a different way. 

I run three powerful satellite PCS to supplement a 64GB Mac Pro. All of them are pretty full of samples, so shrinking to one computer would necessitate a lot of work reducing the template. 

Stopping to reconfigure the template mid-stream can throw off the flow and take time I’m loth to surrender. 

So, for around $2,000 or a bit more, a PC seems like an affordable luxury


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## gsilbers (Apr 7, 2019)

its just easier to load everything in one computer. save templates based on projects, not deal with networking and easier file management in general. With multicore computers VEP can be outside loading all ram instensive and heavy cpu synths while the daw stays more empty. 
i got tired of dealing with pc and mac networking, failing to find which template was for each project because i was blazing thorugh a project.


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## Salorom (Apr 7, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> its just easier to load everything in one computer. save templates based on projects, not deal with networking and easier file management in general. With multicore computers VEP can be outside loading all ram instensive and heavy cpu synths while the daw stays more empty.
> i got tired of dealing with pc and mac networking, failing to find which template was for each project because i was blazing thorugh a project.



My feeling, too. One machine is now enough horsepower in my experience. Allows for large templates, while keeping your setup simple and easy to manage.


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## JohnG (Apr 7, 2019)

I don't see how that's possible, though, if you have a large template? I use a bunch of string and brass libraries, and quite a few choir libraries. That's before I count the rather large number of Zebra, Omnisphere and other synths.

Total RAM footprint for what I'm running is closer to 256 than 128, and the CPU strain on the strings is pretty substantial as well.

So I conclude that it depends how you work.


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## Desire Inspires (Apr 7, 2019)

Master of the slaves? Sheesh.....


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## NameOfBand (Apr 7, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Master of the slaves? Sheesh.....


At least it got your attention!


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## mscp (Apr 7, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Maybe it depends on how you work? If one writes songs, that’s one thing. Full orchestra plus synths plus guitars plus everything else is demanding in a different way.
> 
> I run three powerful satellite PCS to supplement a 64GB Mac Pro. All of them are pretty full of samples, so shrinking to one computer would necessitate a lot of work reducing the template.
> 
> ...




Do you leave everything enabled in each machine - ready to go?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 7, 2019)

I will have a vep space eventually. Getting by for now just fine with 128gb macpro. But it would be a nice luxury to have orch instruments all loaded in ram in one vep slave and contemporary rock music stuff on another slave, and cpu synths and stuff in primary daw. Mainly just so that I can leave them on all the time and they are ready to start making sound without loading anything. But it is an expense and overhead to admin it.... so we’ll see. There is eleagance in simplicity.


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## mscp (Apr 7, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I will have a vep space eventually. Getting by for now just fine with 128gb macpro. But it would be a nice luxury to have orch instruments all loaded in ram in one vep slave and contemporary rock music stuff on another slave, and cpu synths and stuff in primary daw. Mainly just so that I can leave them on all the time and they are ready to start making sound without loading anything. But it is an expense and overhead to admin it.... so we’ll see. There is eleagance in simplicity.



You can program each corresponding midi track to send a CC message to quickly enable/disable a VEP channel or instance if you wish. Ask Guy Rowland. It's easy, fast, and you don't need to have multiple setups, unless of course whatever you end up using in your project (by the end of it) exceeds your CPU or RAM usage.


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## JohnG (Apr 8, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> Do you leave everything enabled in each machine - ready to go?



Not absolutely everything, but the way I write it is useful to have a lot loaded.


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## prodigalson (Apr 8, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I don't see how that's possible, though, if you have a large template?



In this video, which I suspect is the video the OP is referring to, John Paesano talks about his machine having ...cough...*TWO TERABYTES* of RAM.


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## NameOfBand (Apr 8, 2019)

prodigalson said:


> In this video, which I suspect is the video the OP is referring to, John Paesano talks about his machine having ...cough...*TWO TERABYTES* of RAM.



That's the vid. I kinda interpret it as he could have 2 TB in the computer if he'd like to but he may not have it as of now?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 8, 2019)

I couldn't find the 2TB reference, but if that were true he'd literally have a server farm with like 10-20 servers. I doubt it.


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## JohnG (Apr 8, 2019)

I'm not clear on whether costs (money and time/risk to implement) outweigh the benefits of having so much on one computer.

Questions that come to mind:

1. How could a single CPU cope with all that? I know there are CPUs that have over a dozen processors, but the ones I've seen are very expensive compared to a handful of impressive i9 processors.

2. How many samples at one time can a single computer load? Years ago, PLAY had a limit. I don't know if that is still true or if there's something with VE Pro or Kontakt or other sample-playback software (Spitfire, others), but it seems like a lot for one computer to handle and stream from disk.

3. Are you really saving that much on upkeep and maintenance (time and money)?

4. How much money does it cost up front?

I'm not exactly arguing against it -- it may be the best approach. Although what I have today works very well, if I were starting from scratch, I'd consider it.


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## prodigalson (Apr 8, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I couldn't find the 2TB reference, but if that were true he'd literally have a server farm with like 10-20 servers. I doubt it.



Starting at 8:30 until 10:00, he talks about the specific system he has from HP and how it has the ability to have up to 2 TB of RAM.


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 8, 2019)

Thanks! Fascinating. Not cheap though. for one stick of 128gb ram is a thousand bucks so do the math: https://www.serversupply.com/produc...uEQXwgz98S6rLFZSNyND4LRJ_8qSei9caAio0EALw_wcB

But anyway, this does show the light to what will be the not to distant future, windows 10 now supports up to 2TB of ram if you have a motherboard and mem sticks to support it, right now very expensive, but might be so bad in a couple years. Unless you buy from Apple heh.

I would say that if I had a monster machine with so much memory on it, I'd still want that on a server, while my main DAW machine would be more modest. I want to be able to kill VEP on my DAW machine, or reboot or whatever, without having to worry about loading a 1-2TB sample library collection. If that is sitting on a dedicated server, then it can sit there for that purpose and very rarely need to reboot or restart VEP. Imagine how long it would take to load 2TB of sample libraries into a single machine! But could replace a server farm. Another advantage of server farms though would be that that they could all load in parallel, reboot them all at the same time and load up your collection in 1/5 the time (if 5 servers). something like that.


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## mscp (Apr 8, 2019)

If you're playing more than a few thousand voices straight from the same SSD at the exact same time, then problems will arise if you're dealing with a one computer setup - no doubt. I split my libraries into several smaller SSDs so I can play, on one machine, a few thousand voices consecutively. Then when things start to get weird, I commit some of the "definite" tracks to audio and toggle those vep channels off. Sounds complicated but everything happens in a few seconds time which doesn't bother me at all. I'm really surprised at how resilient these i9 9900k's are compared to my two-year-old i7s. Now I use my i7 as my Pro Tools final audio "printout", which works way better than it ever did on my Macs. No more ludicrous "errors" every hour or so. I'm Mac-free now too, which makes me oh so happy. Now, on the other hand, I were... let's say... Hans Zimmer, doing what he does on his level, I'd definitely would need a little server shaft with a few server racks.


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## tommalm (Apr 8, 2019)

prodigalson said:


> Starting at 8:30 until 10:00, he talks about the specific system he has from HP and how it has the ability to have up to 2 TB of RAM.



This isn't anything new. Several different brands allow for this through server grade systems. I have been using Supermicro since 2009, and I still got one computer running a x8dai (2009) motherboard running 24/7 with 192gb of ram. This is an old dual xeon build which will host and run any "modern" library. 

Since DDR4 launched ram modules has gotten bigger. Got one 2011 build which can fit 1tb of ram. 2014 systems allowed for 2tb as soon as 128gb ram modules became availiable. 

Now these are typical E-ATX motherboards with 12/16 ram slots, which you can fit in most mid/large tower cabinets (if you don't use rack equipment). Dual xeon cpu setups, no advanced setup required. 

Of course these setups won't yield as many voices as an overclocked top-tier modern CPU, but it will run anything you can throw at it, provided your CPU has a high enough clock speed. Still several multi mic, script heavy libraries will bring any real time performance down.

The main advantage is ofcourse keeping large templates loaded through VEP. No one needs every library to play at once, that much should be obvious. But you can keep everything loaded and preconfigured in a template. Easy access, saves time, and lets you be creative (for those who prefer this way of working). 

Although, you could make the argument that since VEP 6 these kind of setups isn't as usefull as they once were.


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## mscp (Apr 8, 2019)

tommalm said:


> The main advantage is ofcourse keeping large templates loaded through VEP. No one needs every library to play at once, that much should be obvious. But you can keep everything loaded and preconfigured in a template. Easy access, saves time, and lets you be creative (for those who prefer this way of working).



Toggling VEP channels on/off (to save up RAM) straight from the midi track at the push of a button takes ~1-5 seconds. I start my sessions with a massive template filled with thousands of channels - all disabled in VEP. I switch each channel ON on cubase (remotely) when needed. It literally takes less than one second since everything starts with all samples purged (except PLAY libraries).

I'll only consider going back to slave setups when I exceed 64gb ram worth of used samples in my projects - which can definitely happen later on, who knows?


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## Dewdman42 (Apr 8, 2019)

I definitely like this option of automating the enabling and disabling of stuff, its an area I need to look more into and how to set it up to be convenient to do from LogicPro.. VEP7 has even more capability for that stuff, so its worth looking into, but I think will require some customization effort to realize that work flow, with need for many-track templates perhaps?

I don't think it makes sense to run a 1TB VEP server..honestly.. I'd much rather build up a few slaves... that will actually cost less, and have more CPU power it sounds like...as well as they can load up in parallel.

All of this just comes back around to the fact there is no right or wrong way to work here...everyone has their own preferences and there are pros and cons all around.


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## sathyva (Jan 9, 2020)

I'm in the process of having everything on the same machine. Currently installing a 2019 Mac Pro 16cores with 512 Go of RAM and 8Tb of NVMes for my soundbanks.
The main benefit for me ( like John Paesano said in his interview ... ) is the easier audio routing. As each instance ( of Kontakt for example) will already have its own audio channel. I've always find the VEP ( on a slave or the same machine ) pretty complex for me, regarding the audio routing and thus making the template a bit too big and complex for me to handle and navigate with all the midi channels, audio returns channels, groups, fx returns, etc...Even with the hiding features.
So for the moment, Ciao VEP7 ! I'll stick with Cubase only and maybe deactivating tracks if needed or if I run out of RAM at some point. The 1.5 Tb of RAM option is out of my financial reach 
The only unknown part for me at this moment is how it will handle latency.
I'll keep you updated once my template is good to go !
Cheers !


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## matthieuL (Jan 9, 2020)

It's my dream too to leave VEP, but what still prevents me to do it, is the very long saving time of huge size of the resulting project file. Be aware of that !


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## Prockamanisc (Jan 9, 2020)

matthieuL said:


> It's my dream too to leave VEP, but what still prevents me to do it, is the very long saving time of huge size of the resulting project file. Be aware of that !


Are you in Cubase? You can save every instrument as a track preset, remove the instrument, then disable the track. Then when you want to bring it back, you enable the track, then hit the little "reload" circle under the track preset box, and voila. It keeps the template small.


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## matthieuL (Jan 9, 2020)

Yes I'm in Cubase (10.5). I knew this trick, but I don't find it user friendly, and as I write essentially for orchestra I need all my orchestra being loaded, which means already a big project file (due to Kontakt instruments).
I have big hopes with SINE player, as I could have all an orchestra with maybe minimal file size.


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## Prockamanisc (Jan 9, 2020)

matthieuL said:


> I write essentially for orchestra I need all my orchestra being loaded, which means already a big project file (due to Kontakt instruments).


Me too, and that used to be my philosophy, too, but I learned that I don't mind waiting 10 seconds for an instrument to load if it means that I don't have to use a separate slave computer. I start off in piano, then add in an ensemble instrument for further sketching, then add in individual instruments as needed.


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## matthieuL (Jan 9, 2020)

Personally, I compose on paper, then I orchestrate directly.
My concern is not waiting 10s for an instrument to load, but 10s (or lot more) for each save, freezing completly Cubase.
But thanks for your input !


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## hdsmile (Jan 9, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I would say that if I had a monster machine with so much memory on it, I'd still want that on a server, while my main DAW machine would be more modest. I want to be able to kill VEP on my DAW machine, or reboot or whatever, without having to worry about loading a 1-2TB sample library collection. If that is sitting on a dedicated server, then it can sit there for that purpose and very rarely need to reboot or restart VEP. Imagine how long it would take to load 2TB of sample libraries into a single machine! But could replace a server farm. Another advantage of server farms though would be that that they could all load in parallel, reboot them all at the same time and load up your collection in 1/5 the time (if 5 servers). something like that.



+1000%
so far using the slave is effectively, but maybe in the near future with the advent of new technologies such as a Quantum Computer everything will change, but for now still using the slave is the best variant!


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## chimuelo (Jan 9, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Not absolutely everything, but the way I write it is useful to have a lot loaded.



Exactly.

When you get on a roll taking a short break to keep your flow going is vital, but if your break is to load something, or delete something to make room for another, you end up losing your momentum.

Ive been writing lately and I need the best sounds at my fingertips, all patches and articulations.

I use to write Jazz instrumentals or Pop songs on a single laptop or PC.

Strings, Winds, Percussion and Brass instruments need serious DRAM, and a I’m more than happy having everything ready and Im just using 2 x 32GBs and 2 x 64GB machines.


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