# Strictly Orchestral Instruments or Synths?



## heifsin85 (Jan 11, 2009)

I have a rather simple questions for you fellas. When writing orchestral pieces, do you try to stick 100% on using only orchestral instruments, or do you also lay down pads/synths (atmosphere/omnisphere)?


----------



## bryla (Jan 12, 2009)

well..... uhm

When I write ORCHESTRAL pieces, as you ask, I ONLY use orchestral instruments.....


When I write music in general - and not just for live orchestral performance - I use whatever works best.


----------



## nikolas (Jan 12, 2009)

When I compose for a live orchestra I compose for a live orchestra. when I compose for a sampled orchestra I compose for a sampled orchestra. when I compose R&B (never happened yet), I use synths! :D


----------



## handz (Jan 12, 2009)

Im not a friend of Synths in orchestral music, even in OST´s. Sometine it could spice thing up, but some synth + beat rhytm and orchestra playing over it means to me lack of composers creativity (not every time )


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 12, 2009)

I think that the blending of orchestral instruments (real, when possible) and synths is where the most exciting film/tv music is coming from these days. Guys like John Powell in film and Sean Callery in TV are creating hybrid scores that serve the picture well and are interesting to listen to. The first guy I remember doing this well actually was Goldsmith. 

I certainly don't agree that it is any more or less a lack of creativity either way. For me it would depend on the nature of the project to determine what I would use.


----------



## Dave Connor (Jan 12, 2009)

True Goldsmith did it first and brilliantly. He didn't substitute synths for any orchestral parts really but would add to the texture with them.


----------



## shin (Jan 12, 2009)

Why not using synths? I use everything I can get into my hands - new colors for the palette.
And if you're writting for a live orchestra, well, then you have to find somebody who'll play the synths for them


----------



## madbulk (Jan 12, 2009)

As a blend, increasingly yes. 
And listening back a month later, usually don't specifically think "I put synths in there on top of orch samples." Just sounds normal to me anymore.


----------



## Leandro Gardini (Jan 12, 2009)

handz @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> Im not a friend of Synths in orchestral music, even in OST´s. Sometine it could spice thing up, but some synth + beat rhytm and orchestra playing over it means to me lack of composers creativity (not every time )


I in some way agree...
...and I´m always trying to simulate real ensemble sizes!!!
Orchestra has been developed for centuries and today we have everything in there we need to make any good music...if you feel there´s something lacking in orchestra it´s because maybe there´s something wrong in your arrangement!!!


----------



## billval3 (Jan 12, 2009)

leogardini @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> handz @ Mon Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Im not a friend of Synths in orchestral music, even in OST´s. Sometine it could spice thing up, but some synth + beat rhytm and orchestra playing over it means to me lack of composers creativity (not every time )
> ...



I'm sorry I can't agree with that and I love the sound of "real orchestra." The orchestra has been developed for a long time, yes, but don't you think music should continue to develop? In the past, the orchestra was the height of music technology. But that doesn't mean things have to stay that way! 8)


----------



## synergy543 (Jan 12, 2009)

Leo, according to your rules, this piece is lacking in creativity and suffers from a poor arrangement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZCCaJNoYOQ&fmt=6

Of course, I understand what you're suggesting although there is no need for us to be Nazi music police and deny anyone the possibility to adventure beyond the safe borders. Don't forget what people thought when the Rite of Spring was released.


----------



## Leandro Gardini (Jan 13, 2009)

billval3 @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> leogardini @ Mon Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > handz @ Mon Jan 12 said:
> ...


Sure, but what I mean is the fact that some orchestrators sometimes think the original instruments of the orchestra are not enough for the sound they want...they tend to forget some orchestral instruments and add some synths!!!
If the synth sound added is for the timbre or effect purpose that´s fine...but not for replacing what can be found in any orchestral section!!!
Btw, I do use some synths with the orchestra sometimes!!!


----------



## Hannes_F (Jan 13, 2009)

Hmmm ...

sometimes I think we are sitting on an island and do not even notice it. I would bet in a poll 95 % of normal people would say they have never heard any orchestra in TV or cinema. They are affected by it but don't recognize. Orchestra? What orchestra?

So if that were replaced by equally-good sounding and expressive synths over night most would not even notice. Why has it always to be an oboe or a clarinet - I see no reason for this.

But here is the catch because we would need to play (practise and program) synths with six to ten parameters per voice dynamically in realtime to get something that comes near to orchestra instruments in terms of intensity, naturalness and depth. Not one cc11 that does it all but 6 to 10 of them! Great sounding patches are a prerequisite but I believe on the long hand the cardinal number of the parameter room can not be ignored.

As a consequence I often appreciate an honest and well-programmed synth more than a fake sounding orchestra. Why not?


----------



## billval3 (Jan 13, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Hmmm ...
> 
> sometimes I think we are sitting on an island and do not even notice it. I would bet in a poll 95 % of normal people would say they have never heard any orchestra in TV or cinema. They are affected by it but don't recognize. Orchestra? What orchestra?
> 
> ...



Just to add to that...I wonder if we are, as a society, conditioned to react to orchestral sounds in a certain way. Those sounds, therefore, are effective even if the average listener isn't aware of what's happening.

P.S. @ Jay: I would say Powell is my biggest influence. I'm curious...what are 1 or 2 scores that you like most by him?


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 13, 2009)

P.S. @ Jay: I would say Powell is my biggest influence. I'm curious...what are 1 or 2 scores that you like most by him?[/quote]

The Bourne Trilogy and The Italian Job, for starters.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 13, 2009)

leogardini @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> handz @ Mon Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Im not a friend of Synths in orchestral music, even in OST´s. Sometine it could spice thing up, but some synth + beat rhytm and orchestra playing over it means to me lack of composers creativity (not every time )
> ...



My friend, respectfully, that is a very narrow view.

And there is nothing particularly creative about "always trying to simulate real ensemble sizes!!!"

It is closer to taking a picture of a painting rather than painting one.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 13, 2009)

Jay, we agree! >8o 

Leogardini, why on earth limit yourself? - use what ever tools, combinations of instruments, modes, harmonic constructions etc that you want to. Be a magpie - like all the most interesting composers - indeed where would Debussy have been without the Paris Exhibition? 

Cheers


----------



## Leandro Gardini (Jan 13, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> leogardini @ Mon Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > handz @ Mon Jan 12 said:
> ...


It´s not limiting myself, you miss the point...I write for real orchestra, no matter if it will be performed or not...when it´s going to be performed I know very well the sound I can make with the number of instruments I have available...
...why do you see a big problem in that way of thinking???
Btw, I haven´t said the word "creative" here...so, why such a stupid reply to me...of course you think your way is better than nime - and it´s good for you...but it´s not my way and I´m happy with mine...are you trying to prove what to me???
Let´s live piecefully with our differences...it´s not hard  !!!


----------



## TheoKrueger (Jan 13, 2009)

I would love to do that, but at the moment I don't have a synth that is:

A) Low on CPU
B) Good sounding. From simple leads to complex pads.
C) Capable of loading many instances and still having low latency.
D) With character.

I used to write music that combined everything, but that was with a Roland JV years ago.

Now the equation just doesn't work for me.

Maybe i'll give a go again sometime.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 13, 2009)

leogardini @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue Jan 13 said:
> 
> 
> > leogardini @ Mon Jan 12 said:
> ...



Well, I am a film/TV composer, as are many if not most here, so if you are not, perhaps that is the difference. It would perhaps be a valid approach for a concert hall composer but for me a film composer to limit himself by not availing himself of the many wonderful sounds and textures that synths can add that orchestral instruments cannot is reminiscent of concert hall composers who refused to accept the idea that not all music had to be strictly tonal. An certainly doing so with samples in lieu of an orchestra is even more limiting as they can not sound as marvelous or expressive as a real orchestra.

And read your own post. You wrote: "some synth + beat rhytm and orchestra playing over it means to me lack of composers creativity" so yes, you did bring creativity into the discussion.

Obviously, this was the conclusion that Goldsmith and many of his contemporaries reached early on and my guess is that if Mozart were alive today, he would also use synths as well as orchestral instrument as his ears and mind were always open to new sounds.


----------



## clarkcontrol (Mar 16, 2009)

I suppose synth beats + pads + marcato strings layered with F horns is a stereotypical sound of computer generated commercial music.

Samples do this well and so it's no surprise that a lot of TV and film music sounds like this.

Maybe THAT'S the problem. It's much more difficult to get convincing/realistic/compelling/whatever tracks out of a DAW without resorting to these cliches. 

We got a chase scene and time and computer resources are at a premium so break out the pounding taiko drums, omnisphere and those Project sam flute phrases!

On the other hand, we could bust our a$$ pulling up an entire orchestral template, thinking "what would john williams do," carefully sequencing and freezing tracks all night and the director couldn't care less (and there's an entirely new edit that destroys all the odd meter measures that JW might insert to follow the original cuts).

So MY p.o.v. is this: do what you need to do. I'm guilty of both viewpoints, so I can relate.



I will say this: I avoid percussion as much as I can. To me, this is as much of a trap as anything else. To reference John Williams again, his music contains very little percussion relative to the rest of his techniques.

Clark


----------



## billval3 (Mar 17, 2009)

clarkcontrol @ Tue Mar 17 said:


> I will say this: I avoid percussion as much as I can. To me, this is as much of a trap as anything else. To reference John Williams again, his music contains very little percussion relative to the rest of his techniques.
> 
> Clark



Why is percussion a trap? John Williams has every right not to use it much (as do you, of course), but what is inherently wrong or less useful (or more trap-laden) than any other musical choice?


----------



## Dave Connor (Mar 17, 2009)

heifsin85 @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> I have a rather simple questions for you fellas. *When writing orchestral pieces*, do you try to stick 100% on using only orchestral instruments, or do you also lay down pads/synths (atmosphere/omnisphere)?



Well, as Nick pointed out the question is... the question.

I think he actually means: in an orchestrally _dominated_ piece do you augment the orchestral palette with sounds not found in a traditional orchestra. It's certainly been done a lot with various levels of success. Probably the old axiom of, _in the right hands anything can work_ applies. The difference between Goldsmith and Zimmer in this approach I would think is very telling. You never really knew what JG was going to come up with and with Zimmer it's more like _here we go again._ (which I think took away from the freshness and originality of his early clever use of non orchestral sounds.)

Paradoxically one should never limit themselves yet one should always define certain limits for reasons of cohesion.


----------



## CFDG (Mar 18, 2009)

Shortissimo deadlines = lots of synths.


----------



## synergy543 (Mar 18, 2009)

Interestingly Isao Tomita the famous synthesist has gone back to writing for orchestra and one of his most interesting works, Tales of Genji, uses the orchestra in most unusual ways to the point of amalgamating the orchestra and synthesis along with eastern and western music. Too bad the CD isn't sold in the US as its rather expensive ($71-$166) but still I would highly recommend it for anyone who wants to hear something really different.

http://www.amazon.com/Genji-Monogatari-Symphony-Isao-Tomita/dp/B00005HP04/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1237373587&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Genji-Monogatari- ... 587&amp;sr=8-1)


----------



## lux (Mar 18, 2009)

Dave Connor @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> True Goldsmith did it first and brilliantly. He didn't substitute synths for any orchestral parts really but would add to the texture with them.



i second that. Goldsmith is one of most shining examples.


----------



## Dave Connor (Mar 18, 2009)

I used to hang out at JG's sessions and noticed him once handing his DX7 memory card to one of the synth players. When I heard the sounds and the part it was the most glorious shimmering thing - just stunning and spine tingling. 

That guy exuded genius when he was walking in from the parking lot. The way everyone including security guards etc., related to him was like the King had just arrived. I think that he had not the slightest air of superiority endeared him to everyone.


----------

