# Talk me out of an iMac



## mc_deli (Nov 28, 2019)

Current machine is a 2014 MBP 16GB 2.2. 

Mac for Logic and far too many Kontakt libs and e.g. Diva.

I have 2k to spend. And existing peripherals: TB2 dock, 2x 28" 4k display port monitors, 3x 1TB 850EVOs in USB cases. Lots of other USB toys.

Looking at the iMac 5k 3.0 i5 8GB 512 SSD. To add 64GB OWC RAM.

I like the idea of all that RAM (oh lord yes), having up to 3 monitors, +60% multicore/+40% single core score over what I have now, ships with Mojave... and maybe performance legato patches would be usable! ...oh and far less fan noise than the MBP.

Concerns are the one TB bus, can't find info on the USB busses (are there more than one?), cost of extras like display adapters (and lust for BM multidock!)...

Any thoughts, what am I missing?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 28, 2019)

I would avoid the i5. I'd seriously look at a new i7 6-core Mac mini, and upgrade the Ram yourself. With addition of a Cal-Digit Thunderbolt Station (for example), you could easily connect all your peripherals.


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## jbuhler (Nov 28, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> Current machine is a 2014 MBP 16GB 2.2.
> 
> Mac for Logic and far too many Kontakt libs and e.g. Diva.
> 
> ...


I haven't looked at the iMacs in awhile, but make sure this version has user upgradeable RAM. I also wonder about the i5. My late 2015 4.0GHZ i7 (4 core) occasionally stumbles when I have lots of effects or synths.


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## Michael Stibor (Nov 28, 2019)

I use a 2017 i5. Tons of plugins/soft synths. No issues. I run them off an external SSD which makes a work of difference. And I'm not exactly on top of resources. I don't purge samples or anything, and am happy with the performance.


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## bvaughn0402 (Nov 28, 2019)

Moving from a PC to an iMac (and then iMac Pro) was the best thing I EVER did for my music.


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## mc_deli (Nov 28, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I would avoid the i5. I'd seriously look at a new i7 6-core Mac mini, and upgrade the Ram yourself. With addition of a Cal-Digit Thunderbolt Station (for example), you could easily connect all your peripherals.


Very interesting. The i7 mini scores better in the Geekbench tests, has enough ports for me... the RAM is not quite as easy to upgrade as the iMac... one small issue... Apple are currently updating the Mac Mini "buy" page... I wonder what will appear?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 28, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> Very interesting. The i7 mini scores better in the Geekbench tests, has enough ports for me... the RAM is not quite as easy to upgrade as the iMac... one small issue... Apple are currently updating the Mac Mini "buy" page... I wonder what will appear?



Interesting! It would be really cool if they introduced an i9 option. I was thinking of upgrading to a new Mini soon myself.


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## mc_deli (Nov 28, 2019)

...what's missing with the Mini... only up to 64GB RAM and the weaker graphics card.
...and 25% cheaper with a 1TB SSD, than the i5 iMac with 512... Hmm


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## Noeticus (Nov 28, 2019)

Never use a Mac as it is not a PC.


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## mc_deli (Nov 28, 2019)

...the Mac Mini seed of doubt comes in... there are a couple of games I'd like to play more with good frame rates... and the specs of iMac Vs Mini I am looking at... the iMac scores 500% better FPS... that could seal it for me... but your mileage may vary!

https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/02/12/mac-desktop-shootout----3500-imac-5k-versus-1700-mac-mini


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## nolotrippen (Nov 28, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> ...what's missing with the Mini... only up to 64GB RAM and the weaker graphics card.
> ...and 25% cheaper with a 1TB SSD, than the i5 iMac with 512... Hmm


I've got 40 in mine and it just never chokes. The only game I play is L4D2 and its like butter.


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## mc_deli (Nov 28, 2019)

nolotrippen said:


> I've got 40 in mine and it just never chokes. The only game I play is L4D2 and its like butter.


In a Mini?


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## Wunderhorn (Nov 28, 2019)

Depends all on how demanding your projects are.
If you need lots of horsepower and RAM you'd be better off with a PC unless you can afford a Mac Pro. That's the bottom line that I came to.
The limitations on an iMac are just too much of a recipe for frustration plus, this all-in-one thing is going to age fast.


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## nolotrippen (Nov 29, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> In a Mini?


No, iMac


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## Symfoniq (Nov 29, 2019)

bvaughn0402 said:


> Moving from a PC to an iMac (and then iMac Pro) was the best thing I EVER did for my music.



I would enjoy hearing more about your reasons.


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## mc_deli (Nov 30, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> Depends all on how demanding your projects are.
> If you need lots of horsepower and RAM you'd be better off with a PC unless you can afford a Mac Pro. That's the bottom line that I came to.
> The limitations on an iMac are just too much of a recipe for frustration plus, this all-in-one thing is going to age fast.


Can't afford iMac Pro, must be a Mac.

What limitations?


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## Wunderhorn (Nov 30, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> Can't afford iMac Pro, must be a Mac.
> 
> What limitations?



I was not talking about an iMac Pro, I was talking about a Mac Pro.
If I were you I'd get a PC in this case and I am saying this after having been a Mac user for over 25 years. As I said the iMacs are too limited. They can't be upgraded or serviced properly, you are stuck with a built in monitor and the hardware is overpriced. And since you can't upgrade the thing it will age quickly and have you yearning for a new machine much sooner than you might want to. Therefore to me, it is not very economical.
If you are looking to get the most bang for you buck on a certain budget a PC will give you more. In that world you can even get a silent machine without fans and moving parts.
But hey, again, it all depends on what your projects are going to look like. Maybe you'll be happy with an iMac for a while...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 30, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> I was not talking about an iMac Pro, I was talking about a Mac Pro.
> If I were you I'd get a PC in this case



Counterpoint: this is all silly. 

For one, I'm going to guess that if you were him then a Windows machine would be a nonstarter.

But the main thing is what I post all the time: I'm using a 10-year-old... okay, it is a Mac Pro, but it's ten years old, almost certainly not as powerful as the iMac in question. I simply can't max it out with the libraries I have, no matter how hard I try.

So when someone says "only 64GB," I just don't get it. If I load everything I can think of I still have 20GB left.

And now with Logic only loading what you need, I'd be fine with 32GB.

As to horsepower, what do you need to run? I tried a stack of Omnispheres and couldn't get the processors to spike.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 30, 2019)

To me the question is whether the iMac design is right for you.

It's a great design, and it's perfect for my wife, who uses it for normal computer activities. But it wouldn't be perfect for me, because I keep my computers on the other side of a wall (my garage/machine room), and I don't need or want another monitor.

I believe it was Synthetic who said they should put the iMac Pro in a box without the monitor.


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## Wunderhorn (Nov 30, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Counterpoint: this is all silly.



In order to state your preference/opinion there is no need to make the opinions of others wrong.
The mere fact that you are using an older Mac Pro yourself is already proving my point to some extent. If you had an iMac of a similar age (or even somewhat newer) you'd most likely be in trouble by now.
So, maybe an iMac might be right for the OP but maybe not. Not everyone here is a minimalist - I am not, nor do I enjoy the constant struggle of balancing out performance resources. In the projected price category there is more power and flexibility to be had when choosing PC hardware and (and yes, in case of the OS I would prefer MacOS). But on a certain budget you have to decide - convenience with tighter confinements or more flexibility/upgrade-ability with a perhaps not so favorable but nonetheless popular OS.
Now, again, in the end it depends what you want to do with the machine, and those are all just considerations that might help making a right decision.
Personally, I think that financially speaking an iMac is burning the money away too fast.
And yes, putting an iMac Pro into a Box, removing the integrated monitor, giving you access to RAM, adding a few PCIe slots etc. would be great. A Mac Pro "lite" - I agree - would be an attractive product for a lot of creatives.


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## mc_deli (Dec 1, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> I was not talking about an iMac Pro, I was talking about a Mac Pro.


My bad, sorry. But no can't afford a new Mac Pro. And have considered trash can but... issues there with peripherals and pending compatibility problems.



Wunderhorn said:


> If I were you I'd get a PC in this case and I am saying this after having been a Mac user for over 25 years.


Er no. I'm not about to buy a PC. I just can't justify the hours of extra (re) learning another OS. Those are hours I need for VIc!



Wunderhorn said:


> As I said the iMacs are too limited. They can't be upgraded or serviced properly, you are stuck with a built in monitor and the hardware is overpriced. And since you can't upgrade the thing it will age quickly and have you yearning for a new machine much sooner than you might want to. Therefore to me, it is not very economical.


But the RAM can be upgraded - easily -to 128. And if you really want the hard drive can be updated (but surely no one buys the fusion drive if they buy an iMac for music...). Overpriced, OK. It's the Logic-Apple lock in. I am not about Hackintosh. This will be 5th Mac for music since 1996 - and the first one doesn't really count as it was a Mac clone (remember those?) that I replaced after a year with a G4. So, every 5 years it seems I catch up with some Mac computing power. Yes, the components are overpriced, but I've never been disappointed by the machines, reliability, power etc. I am yearning for a new machine because my current machine (retina MBP 16GB) was never powerful enough to handle full orchestral projects. 100 tracks of of random instruments and audio yes, but 100 of heavy orchestral no.



Wunderhorn said:


> Maybe you'll be happy with an iMac for a while...


I think I would not be happy with the Mac Mini for very long as I would be a little irked that, while music performance would be OK, I wouldn't have the Total War series really playable because of the graphics. I'd also void the warranty changing the RAM.

With the iMac 27, still shipping with Mojave, so everything I have now "will" work, 20 second aftermarket RAM change, gobsmacking graphic performance compared to what I'm used to, invoiced in January for a tax break, VAT deductible, and it's not quite double the multi-core score I have now but still a lot more (I am looking at the 3.1 i5 unless I spring for the 3.6 i9 but I can't justify the extra cash)... I think I'll be happy for 5 years... I am guessing it'll run SCS performance legato and let me enjoy BWW and things like the Embertone solo strings... all of which have been torturous on the MBP.

(In all this I would happily trade half my Spitfire libraries for more power to enjoy the other half!)


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## mc_deli (Dec 1, 2019)

...good attempt to talk me out of it though!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 1, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> In order to state your preference/opinion there is no need to make the opinions of others wrong.



What I'm calling silly is blatant wind-ups, not serious advice! And I didn't mean to single out your post, I meant that a lot of the discussion is silly.



Wunderhorn said:


> f you had an iMac of a similar age (or even somewhat newer) you'd most likely be in trouble by now.



That is true, but the ones that are available now are more powerful than my Mac Pro (which has been updated with faster processors, but it's still an old machine). Computers in general aren't what they used to be, and the iMacs available now are ahead of the ones from ten years ago.


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## gsilbers (Dec 1, 2019)

what nick was saying. the computer screen might be an issue for some poeple. also, there is some upgrade limitations i believe so check what you need. 
and the imac screen is very nice so its an extra premium price youll be paying when audio folks like us dont need quadruple retina HDR 16k 16gb ram whatever displpay. we fine with older displays or cheaper displays. 
a nice standout macs now imo is the mac mini i7 top cpu w 64gb of ram and 2tb ssd. as well as the macbok pro that also has 64gb ram and i9. i would think the mac mini would be upgraded to i9 sometime soon but since the new mac pro is coming out soon, it might be later.


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## Pier (Dec 1, 2019)

Let me start by saying that I own a 2017 5K iMac with an i5 7600K.

On principle I would not recommend an iMac for music production unless you are working on very small projects. The exception would be the i9 which I've heard has much better cooling but it seems it's out of your budget.

1) Cooling is crap. These machines are not designed to work with sustained CPU activity which is how audio works. Once you start having even modest 30-40% of constant CPU activity the temps will easily reach 70-80ºC and the fan noise will be more than audible. Unfortunately since the CPU and monitor are AIO you can't really hide it away in a closet or machine room.

2) The AIO design means you won't be able to easily repair or replace any components either. Even opening the machine 4-5 years down the road to clean for dust will be a real PITA.

3) IMO the price of the 5K iMac is great considering you are getting an amazing 5K display with very impressive color accuracy (I use it for graphic design). If you don't need such display why waste money on that? Also if your logic board breaks you will have an unusable glorious display.

A couple of months ago I was looking for a new Mac for music production and also considered the Mac Mini but ended up building a Windows PC instead. The Minis suffer from similar problems as the iMacs with the added problem that the Intel GPU is crap. Many have reported audio performance issues when using monitors higher than 1080p.

IMO the best option for a Mac right now would be to stretch your budget and buy the 16'' MBP since I imagine the upcoming Mac Pro is totally out of your budget.


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## jbuhler (Dec 1, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> Let me start by saying that I own a 2017 5K iMac with an i5 7600K.
> 
> On principle I would not recommend an iMac for music production unless you are working on very small projects. The exception would be the i9 which I've heard has much better cooling but it seems it's out of your budget.
> 
> ...


I have a 2015 iMac 4GZ i7 64GB and the fan rarely comes on except when bouncing audio or rendering video. Normal playback in the DAW, even with large projects, rarely if ever triggers the fan.


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## mc_deli (Dec 2, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> Let me start by saying that I own a 2017 5K iMac with an i5 7600K.
> 
> On principle I would not recommend an iMac for music production unless you are working on very small projects. The exception would be the i9 which I've heard has much better cooling but it seems it's out of your budget.
> 
> ...



Tx, good points.
Of all the threads I've read though on fan noise, the replies seem nearly all to be in the order of the above (fan never or rarely when bouncing)...

On the MBP, it's just too much cash for me to improve dramatically from the mid 2014 i7 16GB I have now.


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## mc_deli (Dec 2, 2019)

Tale of the tape:

iMac 3.1Ghz, 6 core, i5, Radion 575x, 512 SSD, 8GB
Geekbench single/multicore: 1073, 5110
EUR 2759 

Mini 3.2Ghz, 6 core, i7, Intel UHD Graphics 630, 512 SSD, 8GB
1138, 5715
EUR 1749

...you gotta really want the GPU and the screen for that grand!
I'm not so sure I do... money talks and well, you know!


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## StevenOBrien (Dec 2, 2019)

I realize that you probably don't have any desire to move from Logic Pro, but I would strongly encourage you to explore PC-compatible DAWs and see if there's anything you'd be comfortable with.

Apple would've been by recommendation 10 years ago, but nowadays, I don't think there's anything but downsides for someone who isn't already locked into the ecosystem. Things seem to be getting worse over time.

- PCs are significantly cheaper and have far more customizability, repairability.
- Intel CPUs are being rapidly overtaken in both performance and price by AMD CPUs, which you're missing out on by sticking to Apple
- Windows 10 is FAR more stable and performant than macOS these days. I don't personally find Windows 10's ease-of-use any different to macOS's.
- Apple has shown a consistent disregard for its professional customer-base over the past few years and seems mainly interested in squeezing as much money out of the people who are locked into the ecosystem. They are not the same company that they were 10 years ago.



> To add 64GB OWC RAM.


That's probably not going to happen. The thing is really not meant to be user-upgradable.


Just going by what I see here: https://www.scan.co.uk/3xs/custom/daw-digital-audio-workstation-pcs/form-factors#anc

You can get a *12 core* AMD processor that has higher single-thread performance than an i9, along with 16GB of RAM for the same price as the i7, 8GB Mac Mini.

You can even customize these to not include any RAM or storage that you already have, and to specifically use a motherboard that would support the type of RAM you already have purchased.


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## Pier (Dec 2, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> I have a 2015 iMac 4GZ i7 64GB and the fan rarely comes on except when bouncing audio or rendering video. Normal playback in the DAW, even with large projects, rarely if ever triggers the fan.



What kind of projects do you work on?


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## InLight-Tone (Dec 2, 2019)

StevenOBrien said:


> I realize that you probably don't have any desire to move from Logic Pro, but I would strongly encourage you to explore PC-compatible DAWs and see if there's anything you'd be comfortable with.
> 
> Apple would've been by recommendation 10 years ago, but nowadays, I don't think there's anything but downsides for someone who isn't already locked into the ecosystem. Things seem to be getting worse over time.
> 
> ...


I completely disagree, having recently a year ago converted to all things Apple...
Why I Hate Windows?


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## StevenOBrien (Dec 2, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> I completely disagree, having recently a year ago converted to all things Apple...
> Why I Hate Windows?


I'm not going to claim that Windows is perfect, just that going for a Windows machine has more upsides than going for an Apple machine at this time.

Apart from the issues with Windows Update (which you can completely disable with some effort), I don't think that most of the problems that AdmiralBumbleBee brings up are _that_ significant.

His complaints about audio/ASIO-related stuff are only relevant if you don't have a decent audio interface, which I doubt is the case with the OP.

Backup is terrible though, I will 100% agree with him on that. Nothing on Windows comes close to what Time Machine offers on Mac, and it's just about the only thing I seriously find myself missing.


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## Pier (Dec 2, 2019)

StevenOBrien said:


> I realize that you probably don't have any desire to move from Logic Pro, but I would strongly encourage you to explore PC-compatible DAWs and see if there's anything you'd be comfortable with.
> 
> Apple would've been by recommendation 10 years ago, but nowadays, I don't think there's anything but downsides for someone who isn't already locked into the ecosystem. Things seem to be getting worse over time.
> 
> ...



Totally agree. For the price of an i7 Mac Mini I built a Ryzen PC comparable in performance to an iMac Pro. And since it's a tower I have total flexibility with the hardware. I've been a Mac guy for the past 15 or so years but the Mac hardware situation is simply ridiculous. Windows is certainly fugly but once you are inside the DAW it makes no difference.

Also, I really don't buy the "but I have to use Logic" argument. The Cubase/Windows combo is used by top guys like Zimmer, Gregson Williams, JunkieXL, and a very long etcetera.


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## jbuhler (Dec 2, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> What kind of projects do you work on?


Different kinds of things, but mostly orchestral stuff (around 60GB in the template when fully loaded) in terms of what pushes the system. I also see little difference in terms of the fan in using Logic and Studio One 4, though Logic, now that it only loads what's being used, is far better with memory usage.) So I use lots of VIs but I don't use many insert effects or soft synths. In my usage the fan just never comes on except when I bounce out audio, rip DVDs, or render video. Strike that. For some reason some processes in Chrome will also very occasionally and inexplicably cause the fan to turn on as well. But it's just not something I encounter on a regular basis.


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## Pier (Dec 2, 2019)

jbuhler said:


> So I use lots of VIs but I don't use many insert effects or soft synths.



Right, so you are barely using the CPU.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 2, 2019)

StevenOBrien said:


> I realize that you probably don't have any desire to move from Logic Pro, but I would strongly encourage you to explore PC-compatible DAWs and see if there's anything you'd be comfortable with.
> 
> Apple would've been by recommendation 10 years ago, but nowadays, I don't think there's anything but downsides for someone who isn't already locked into the ecosystem. Things seem to be getting worse over time.
> 
> ...



I strongly disagree, and yes I have a Win 10 machine (slave). Moving to Windows will open up a whole new world of problems. Sure you can build a powerful machine for a decent cost, but the bazillion component options present a bazillion things that can go wrong with software, compatibility, drivers, etc (just look at all the custom-built PC users having issues running BBCSO). And to me, Win 10 is a real PITA to get around, I much preferred Win 7. And I also disagree about stability, you cannot back that one up.


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## jbuhler (Dec 2, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> Right, so you are barely using the CPU.


Not generally, but it depends on the VI, of course. Anything using Time Machine can be a real CPU hog, for instance. I just put 20 instances of Alchemy into a project, added several insert effects to each instance and ran that. The low fan turned on after about 30 seconds and continued until I stopped it around 2 minutes in. CPU was running at about 45% in the Activity Monitor, and about 75%-80% on 7 of the 8 processing threads according to the meter in Logic. The low fan is not very loud; only the high fan presents a significant noise issue for me.


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## StevenOBrien (Dec 2, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Sure you can build a powerful machine for a decent cost, but the bazillion component options present a bazillion things that can go wrong with software, compatibility, drivers, etc (just look at all the custom-built PC users having issues running BBCSO).


I've only used Spitfire's LABS plugin but it is by far one of the buggiest VIs I've ever used, to the point where I find myself removing it from projects just to eliminate hassle. It's not representative of how most plugins on Windows behave, so I would put most of the blame on Spitfire for that. You can get bad Mac ports just as easily as you can get bad Windows ports.




Wolfie2112 said:


> And I also disagree about stability, you cannot back that one up.


When I need to use a mac for software development, I get more beachballs and slow-downs on macOS than I get crashes on Windows. I also find that macOS is far more likely to just completely lock up, forcing a restart, which just doesn't happen to me on Windows. It's not a night-and-day difference, but Windows certainly feels better to use in my experience.




Wolfie2112 said:


> I strongly disagree, and yes I have a Win 10 machine (slave).


Slave machines are also a nightmare in general. It feels like every problem gets amplified due to the fact that there's an extra layer of networking (which is terrible on both Mac and PC) on top of everything that needs to be considered.


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## Pier (Dec 2, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> I strongly disagree, and yes I have a Win 10 machine (slave). Moving to Windows will open up a whole new world of problems. Sure you can build a powerful machine for a decent cost, but the bazillion component options present a bazillion things that can go wrong with software, compatibility, drivers, etc (just look at all the custom-built PC users having issues running BBCSO). And to me, Win 10 is a real PITA to get around, I much preferred Win 7. And I also disagree about stability, you cannot back that one up.



That hasn't been my experience at all. Also configuring Windows 10 for audio has been basically changing the power plan and a couple of BIOS settings. It's really not rocket science.

About BBCSO... The fault here lies 100% in the developer.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 2, 2019)

StevenOBrien said:


> I've only used Spitfire's LABS plugin but it is by far one of the buggiest VIs I've ever used, to the point where I find myself removing it from projects just to eliminate hassle. It's not representative of how most plugins on Windows behave, so I would put most of the blame on Spitfire for that. You can get bad Mac ports just as easily as you can get bad Windows ports.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe I'm lucky. Since 2013, I've had one single crash on my Mac (due to a bad update for VEPro). Never an issue with Spitfire, although I only use BBCSO, Studio Orchestra and LABS. Never had an issue with networking on both the Mac and PC. @InLight-Tone pretty much sums up my Windows gripes.


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## mc_deli (Dec 2, 2019)

StevenOBrien said:


> I realize that you probably don't have any desire to move from Logic Pro, but I would strongly encourage you to explore PC-compatible DAWs and see if there's anything you'd be comfortable with.
> 
> Apple would've been by recommendation 10 years ago, but nowadays, I don't think there's anything but downsides for someone who isn't already locked into the ecosystem. Things seem to be getting worse over time.
> 
> ...


***with that comment it’s hard to take anything else you say seriously***
Sorry, but the thing is, you need to be told


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## mc_deli (Dec 2, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> Totally agree. For the price of an i7 Mac Mini I built a Ryzen PC comparable in performance to an iMac Pro. And since it's a tower I have total flexibility with the hardware. I've been a Mac guy for the past 15 or so years but the Mac hardware situation is simply ridiculous. Windows is certainly fugly but once you are inside the DAW it makes no difference.
> 
> Also, I really don't buy the "but I have to use Logic" argument. The Cubase/Windows combo is used by top guys like Zimmer, Gregson Williams, JunkieXL, and a very long etcetera.


M8 we’re not all Zimmer, GW or JXL. I’m a hobbiest with no time or will to learn a new DAW, OS or go near my or anyone else’s bio(s).

TBH guys I’ve also lost the will to read another PC pi**ing contest on here. 

In case anyone else is still on the Mini vs iMac plot, the point about the RAM update: iMac is a 20 second job via a hatch vs a 20 minute job on the Mini requiring some instructions, care, tricky screws etc. (With risk of warranty void). This is the kind of thing that I factor in because I get a free three year warranty from my favourite reseller.

Now back to the Windows love in!


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## Pier (Dec 2, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> M8 we’re not all Zimmer, GW or JXL.



Obviously  My point simply was that it's a valid solution.

Personally I'm not a fanboy of either Windows or Mac. Both have its pros and cons, but if you are on a budget you get a lot more mileage from building a PC.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 2, 2019)

Penis von Lesbian said:


> I'm not going to claim that Windows is perfect, just that going for a Windows machine has more upsides than going for an Apple machine at this time.



What if you like working on Macs and aren't interested in Windows machines for anything other than slaves?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 2, 2019)

hbjdk said:


> Who is “Penis von Lesbian”, Nick? :O :D



Dick Van Dyke

Old joke.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 2, 2019)

My reccomendation is to buy a maxed out refurbished 2012 macpro and run th for a few more years. It’s in your budget. Hopefully in a few years we will have more options for new affordable macpros that are more akin to an imacpro in a box without a monitor.

I agree with all the sentiments that anything newer then that, except for the new macpro coming out, are dead end streets in terms of reasonable upgrade and expansion. My 2012 macpro does all I need for now, I can easily live without massivex and modo drums.

me personally I will absolutely not ever be buying a mini nor iMac for my daw. I truly still consider the 5,1 macpro the best currently available power user Mac in the $2k price range, might be slightly more if you max out memory and load it with Ssd’s but you will not be wanting more computer power, it does just fine with maxed out cpu.

If Apple comes out with a new macpro that maybe is in an ugly case with an i9 processor and only has 4 pci slots instead of 8 like the big one, but for much less money. Then I’ll finally upgrade. If they don’t I will keep using the 5,1 for years to come it’s still perfectly viable. Someday I may have to switch to windows but hopefully not, we’ll see.


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## mc_deli (Dec 3, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> My reccomendation is to buy a maxed out refurbished 2012 macpro and run th for a few more years. It’s in your budget. Hopefully in a few years we will have more options for new affordable macpros that are more akin to an imacpro in a box without a monitor.
> 
> I agree with all the sentiments that anything newer then that, except for the new macpro coming out, are dead end streets in terms of reasonable upgrade and expansion. My 2012 macpro does all I need for now, I can easily live without massivex and modo drums.
> 
> ...


It's a great point... and a 96GB 12 core with SSD and extra storage can be had on eBay for just over 2k euros... 6286 Geekbench multicore. It's obscene for the money compared to e.g. the new MBP!

5 years ago maybe... but now I have the fear... that the 5,1 is now going to hit a Catalina shaped wall. From here on in there's going to more and more software I wouldn't be able to run. Every update, every patch is going to be another compound risk. 

It would also be a complete partscaster refurb probably with a limited hardware warranty. I'm maybe not hardcore enough!


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 3, 2019)

Its going to be a few years before you have to worry about software not running on this thing. If you want to always be on the latest version of OSX, then go ahead and get a new computer. Prepare to spend money. And as of now, expandability will be an issue on those. You have the facts, pick your poison.

Honestly I expect to use my 5,1 at least 3 more years. Possibly 5.


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## Pier (Dec 3, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> If you want to always be on the latest version of OSX, then go ahead and get a new computer. Prepare to spend money. And as of now, expandability will be an issue on those. You have the facts, pick your poison.



Exactly.

IMO Apple is seriously ignoring the need of a tower with regular components (non ECC, non Xeon, no Afterburner, etc). Not sure if it's because they'd rather sell machines that do not last as long, or because they don't want to cannibalize other products like the iMac/iMac Pro, or if it's pure ignorance. Hopefully if the upcoming Mac Pro is successful they will start considering a more accessible tower model.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 3, 2019)

Yep. Listen, Apple made a huge mistake when they went to the trashcan Mac Pro, and they later admitted to it. But they had long since left the cheesegrater tower design and production capabilixy behind. They wanted to make mini's and iMacs. I think for most consumers, iMac's and minis are perfectly fine, even better. A lot of people now buy their computer from walmart or best buy in an all-in-one form factor. Apple is not alone on that.

The difference is that in the PC world, power users can still build machines that match their need, but Apple has not provided any new solution for that since 2012. The trashcan has been, even up until right now, their unchanged power user machine.

So finally after much ado they release the new MacPro, and its quite a machine, but aside from fancy video production studios, its way overkill and way too expensive. Simple as that. They completely miss an important tier of users, again. 

I actually felt that was the case also 10 years ago with the cheesgraters. They were very powerful, but there was a slightly lower tier that could be built for half the price on a PC...and Apple never provided a computer to match that level of price performance and capability. I actually ended up building a hackintosh in 2007 and that was primarily the reason why, so that I could spend an appropriate amount for a mid tier tower designed computer that had enough power without spending a fortune on a cheese grater.

now those machines are available used and refurbished and more in the sweet spot of price/performance.. So I finally got one a few years ago, and very happy with it.

What will happen next from Apple? Most likely they will not provide a mid tier tower. That is not their way. But in a few years, used and refurbished MacPros will start to hit the market and then it may be possible to pick one up for a reasonable price. They will still be viable and relevant at that time.

I don't know what their problem is, if they are ignorant, or elitist, or head in the clouds, but I think those of us in this mid their power user category represent a very small minority of their business, so....it is what it is.


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## Damarus (Dec 3, 2019)

Its truly a terrible time to buy a Mac, unless you have money you don't care about. 

What you are asking for is a PC that runs Mac OSX.

Wait to see what the Mac Pro offers in price/performance, wait to see if a Mac Mini Pro or similar is going to be announced. Or buy something new.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Dec 3, 2019)

The route I have chosen to take in all this, is Apple for DAW machine and PCs for slaves going forward

Currently I run:
DAW - Mac Mini 6-Core i7, 32GB, 1TB nVME SSD (10GbE) with a Dell U3818DW Display
Slave 1 - is my i7 4770K PC, 32GB, RX 580 (soon to be an AMD 3950x if they deliver on audio)
Slave 2 - is my 2012 12-Core Mac Pro 64GB RAM, nVME SSD (adaptor) AMD 7950 Mac

I am more than happy with my mac mini, because it makes a wonderful DAW machine and of course I can run Windows 10 in bootcamp under UEFI with full support (for my IT work)

I also plan to use the Mini for Live Orchestral/Other Recordings with my friend

I also like the amount of USB-C ports I am offered, for using docks and due to having plenty of bandwidth!


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## Pier (Dec 3, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Yep. Listen, Apple made a huge mistake when they went to the trashcan Mac Pro, and they later admitted to it. But they had long since left the cheesegrater tower design and production capabilixy behind. They wanted to make mini's and iMacs. I think for most consumers, iMac's and minis are perfectly fine, even better. A lot of people now buy their computer from walmart or best buy in an all-in-one form factor. Apple is not alone on that.
> 
> The difference is that in the PC world, power users can still build machines that match their need, but Apple has not provided any new solution for that since 2012. The trashcan has been, even up until right now, their unchanged power user machine.
> 
> ...



I like macOS and all but these days I'd rather move to Windows than dealing with a hackintosh.

Windows as a DAW machine is perfectly fine and hardware-wise it has many benefits over macOS. The transition has been pretty smooth for me since I use Ableton Live which is 99.99% the same on both platforms.

Before that I used Logic for years from v7 to X. Logic is a great tool but it's simply not a priority for Apple unlike Live for Ableton or Cubase for Steinberg. It is barely being kept alive to attract and keep users into macOS. The last major version was introduced almost 7 years ago and it was quite insubstantial, much like Logic Pro 9 before it.


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## jbuhler (Dec 3, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> The last major version was introduced almost 7 years ago and it was quite insubstantial, much like Logic Pro 9 before it.


What a weird thing to say. Also there have been any number of substantial improvements to Logic since X was introduced.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 3, 2019)

Damarus said:


> Its truly a terrible time to buy a Mac, unless you have money you don't care about.



Better time than three years ago when I was looking. Assuming the post above about iMacs and Mac Minis overheating under the strain of music studio use is an outlier - and I suspect it is, because we'd see a lot more posts about that if it were common - those are viable machines. Also, the new 16" MacBook Pro looks pretty impressive.

I'm very happy with the 5,1 Mac Pro 12 x 3.46GHz I chose three years ago, the same machine Dewdman has. But these machines are about $1K on ebay in the US, and you can find them with 64GB installed. That's a good deal. I'd have a hard time spending $2000 on it today, though, given the choices above.


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## Matt Riley (Dec 4, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> Logic is a great tool but it's simply not a priority for Apple unlike Live for Ableton or Cubase for Steinberg. It is barely being kept alive to attract and keep users into macOS. The last major version was introduced almost 7 years ago and it was quite insubstantial, much like Logic Pro 9 before it.


An absolutely ridiculous statement. Logic has seen a ton of improvement over the years. All you have to do is compare the release notes in the incremental updates to those of Ableton Live to know that there’s no truth to the statement.


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Better time than three years ago when I was looking. Assuming the post above about iMacs and Mac Minis overheating under the strain of music studio use is an outlier - and I suspect it is, because we'd see a lot more posts about that if it were common - those are viable machines. Also, the new 16" MacBook Pro looks pretty impressive.
> 
> I'm very happy with the 5,1 Mac Pro 12 x 3.46GHz I chose three years ago, the same machine Dewdman has. But these machines are about $1K on ebay in the US, and you can find them with 64GB installed. That's a good deal. I'd have a hard time spending $2000 on it today, though, given the choices above.



Well, yes. I will agree the Mac mini has never been better. The iMac, powerful as ever with 9th gen intel. Finally a 16" Macbook pro.

Unfortunately most users here basically want a lower priced 2019 Mac Pro. The "mid" tier. While the 5,1 / 6,1 mac pros are still adequate, *From a hardware standpoint,* they are absolutely not worth $2000. Not even $1000. For perspective, a Xeon x5675 in the 5,1 pro goes for 30$ on ebay..

Macs are just computers. There is nothing special about them. So looking at this from a technology perspective, the money is much better spent on a new machine you can keep for another 5-10 years instead of wondering when the logic board is going to die on an already 7-8 year old device. Not to mention new software features and updates.

Going the Mac route - @Shad0wLandsUK had a very ideal late 2019 low cost setup listed above.

Mac mini is very powerful for the package - then supplement with a VEpro machine. That will be more than powerful enough for most.

If not - bite the bullet and get iMac pro or the new Mac pro and keep it for another 10 years.

.02


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

They are worth every penny of $2k. I don’t think you can get a loaded up cheese grater for $1000 yet. Those are exaggerated claims. It’s still a viable machine. You can get older ones for $1000 that don’t have max cpu and ram, which I would not Reccomend. 

The point of a loaded up cheese grater is that it’s still viable, will run everything we do here in this forum, it’s more then enough power unless you have i9 envy. And it comes in an expandable tower form factor, unlike everything else from Apple. It IS the mid tier solution from Apple until they release something else.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

This is currently my favorite source for refurbished with warranty cheesgraters: http://ipowerresale.com/product/2010-mac-pro-2-66ghz-12-core-westmere/?

If you upgrade cpu, ram, video and ssd, it will be close to $2k out the door. very reliable source though. they can also sell you cpu and ram upgrades.

In eBay there are a number of Sellers that make a living by refurbishing cheesgraters and upgrading their cpu to the max, etc. But I have had very good experience with ipowerresale, plus they warranty it.


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> They are worth every penny of $2k. I don’t think you can get a loaded up cheese grater for $1000 yet. Those are exaggerated claims. It’s still a viable machine. You can get older ones for $1000 that don’t have max cpu and ram, which I would not Reccomend.
> 
> The point of a loaded up cheese grater is that it’s still viable, will run everything we do here in this forum, it’s more then enough power unless you have i9 envy. And it comes in an expandable tower form factor, unlike everything else from Apple. It IS the mid tier solution from Apple until they release something else.



That was not my point. My point was, stop buying shit thats almost 8+ years old because its viable NOW. 

Again if everyone reading this is not concerned about performance-per-dollar then these discussions are irrelevant. 

I mean seriously guys - this is the multi-threaded score for a mini. The iMac is way higher. not to mention Thunderbolt 3 everything


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Matter of opinion mate. My opinion is that iMacs and minis are foolish to buy and the 5,1 is right now still in the sweet spot until Apple releases something better


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Well, the facts are right there - they have released something better. What does the 5,1 have above any recent release?


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## Pier (Dec 4, 2019)

Matt Riley said:


> An absolutely ridiculous statement. Logic has seen its kind of improvement over the years. You have to do is compare the release notes in the incremental updates to those of Ableton Live to know that there’s no truth to the statement.



In the time since Logic Pro X was released, Ableton has released 2 major versions with *a ton* of new features. Max4Live integration and devices, new synths, new plugins, completely new rewritten UI engine, libraries, etc. And let's not forget about their expansion into hardware with 2 versions of Push, or releasing a crossplatform SDK/protocol (Link) for syncing musical apps.

Or look at Bitwig, a super small company that in just the last 5 years has released 3 major versions of its crossplatform DAW. The last one includes a complete modular environment.

I stopped using Cubase before switching to Logic Pro 7 ages ago, but from what I've seen on forums and youtube videos it is also going full steam ahead.

So while these companies are constantly innovating their products and introducing new revolutionary features Logic Pro is still shipping with ancient plugins (eg: Ultrabeat) which haven't been updated in 15 years. Or Space designer which has been untouched since its introduction in Logic Pro 8 in 2007 or so I believe?

Apple, with its considerable resources, would not ship macOS, iOS, FinalCut, or any of its more popular products with 15 years old stuff in it because it cares about those products.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Damarus said:


> Well, the facts are right there - they have released something better. What does the 5,1 have above any recent release?



better mid tier solution. And no they haven’t.


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## JohnG (Dec 4, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> 5 years ago maybe... but now I have the fear... that the 5,1 is now going to hit a Catalina shaped wall. From here on in there's going to more and more software I wouldn't be able to run. Every update, every patch is going to be another compound risk.



I share this concern ^^. I'm running a 5,1 that was refurbished with a new 12 core some years ago. It's great today but not sure if Catalina is possible or not.


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> better mid tier solution. And no they haven’t.



Okay I get it, the 5,1 Mac Pro was the peak of innovation for Apple. Very modular and still keeps up to this day.

CPU, RAM, I/O and Storage is really what concerns us Modern day Composers.

CPU - 5,1 is far behind most anything recent. Still powerful enough to get the job done for now, but less head room than it used to have.

RAM - Much slower Ram, but maximum supported is 128GB. Huge plus as most Macs can't get to this for the price point if you really need that much on a budget.

I/O - Dogshit compared to today. Not that fastest or most compatible, but you can make it work.

Storage - Old interface protocols, which barley keeps up with even low tier stuff. But, more modular than anything has released with lots of room for more drives.

So yes, great computer right now. It just doesn't have much head room left in 2020. I would not say it would make another 5 years as a serious workhorse machine.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I share this concern ^^. I'm running a 5,1 that was refurbished with a new 12 core some years ago. It's great today but not sure if Catalina is possible or not.



Its possible yes, but I don't recommend it for now:

All you want to know about that is here: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...to-make-catalina-work-with-macpro5-1.2183978/

I'm confident that people will figure out eventually how to completely run Catalina on a 5,1 mac, but I have a feeling that after Catalina it will be more difficult because of bigger changes coming in OSX.

Anyone who feels they absolutely must be using the latest version of OSX at all times, should probably buy an iMac.

I don't plan on leaving Mojave with my 5,1. Mojave is working very well for me. I suspect that in about 2-3 years I won't be able to update LogicPro without moving to Catalina...at which time maybe I'll see how that is working on 5,1's, then I can stretch out another year or two on Catalina. That puts me nearly 5 years out from now, then I can finally get a new computer. I'm not worried about it.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Damarus said:


> Okay I get it, the 5,1 Mac Pro was the peak of innovation for Apple. Very modular and still keeps up to this day.
> 
> CPU, RAM, I/O and Storage is really what concerns us Modern day Composers.



That is why the 5,1 is still my preferrence over even the faster cpu's in current minis and iMacs. And it is a very important factor for what we do.



> CPU - 5,1 is far behind most anything recent. Still powerful enough to get the job done for now, but less head room than it used to have.



Sure it is, but its still enough. How much do you need? I'm not running out of cpu on mine. Honestly, I am using Diva and everything else, works fine. Mix many VSL tracks, works fine. Never have to freeze or bounce. Works fine. Ok, if I get in a benchmarking contest with someone that has an i9 I will lose, but so what? What I have is working fine. The ONLY thing is that AVX is becoming more popular. So right now I can't run MassiveX or ModoDrums, but I have way too damn many other very fine plugins that all work perfectly fine on this hardware. Why spend more money?




> RAM - Much slower Ram, but maximum supported is 128GB. Huge plus as most Macs can't get to this for the price point if you really need that much on a budget.



Its definitely slower ram then newer models for sure, but again, aside from benchmark pissing contests, who cares? Its also more affordable ram! And yes I like having 128gb of perfectly fast enough ram.




> I/O - Dogshit compared to today. Not that fastest or most compatible, but you can make it work.



Well again, I don't care. I have Sata3, which is fast enough. I can get USB3, but I don't need it. Nothing I care about even uses USB3. No Thunderbolt3, ok, but I don't have any TB devices and I'm unlikely to get any now that I see Apple is recommitting to PCI solutions. Sure...benchmarks and stats. If you care, go get a $15k MacPro. But my $2k 5,1 MacPro is actually working perfectly fine and I expect it to keep working perfectly fine for at least 3 more years, maybe 5. And even after that it will still be an extremely useful machine to keep as a VePro slave or whatever... It has tremendous power in it, even today. I could even switch to running Windows10 on it if I wanted since Apple won't support it anymore. (shrug)




> Storage - Old interface protocols, which barley keeps up with even low tier stuff. But, more modular than anything has released with lots of room for more drives.



As I said already, I've already updated it to sata3. It supports M.2 if you get a pci card for that, but I chose not to because I'm already invested in SSD III, which works perfectly fine. Try using m.2 on a mini or iMac by the way.



> So yes, great computer right now. It just doesn't have much head room left in 2020. I would not say it would make another 5 years as a serious workhorse machine.



I disagree. Mine will be 3-5 more years of heavy use. Like I said earlier, if you have i9 envy or you;'re the kind of person that always needs to have the fastest hardware on the block or the latest version of OSX for that matter, then it may not be the best solution for you. But I say, why over spend? These most definitely are still workhorse machines and until I we see extremely cpu hungry applications or plugins hitting the market, they will continue to serve very well. Lack of AVX and sluggish single core performance is really the only hindrance for what we do, and basically as of now in late 2019, I'm still not having any problems with either of those things... (shrug).


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> As I said already, I've already updated it to sata3. It supports M.2 if you get a pci card for that, but I chose not to because I'm already invested in SSD III, which works perfectly fine. Try using m.2 on a mini or iMac by the way.



Apple's Gen4 / Gen5 SSDs have been on PCIe 3.0 speeds since 2015ish.

Yes yes I know, if its not broke why fix it. I've had my computer for 4 years now, and I get huge discounts on Intel processor/MoBo combos, I could easily upgrade every other year. *This is all about the OP*.

What I'm saying is buying a old Mac Pro now is risky. When the new Mac Pro comes out, Apple is going to make staying on old Mac Pros very difficult over the next few years. This is not uncommon of Apple.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

I really hope that apple does make it easier to move to a new MacPro. but as of now, its easy decision. 5,1 all the way for me! 

I don't consider it risky either. The amount of money saved more then makes up for any change coming down the pike. You can pay a ton of money for something newer and faster and watch it depreciate... Everyone has their own way of thinking about it. If the new MacPro were more affordable we wouldn't be having this conversation.


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Yeah its pretty absurd how high its priced right now. Not even the 5,1 or 6,1 Mac pros were that high I dont think?


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

They were not. Admittedly the new MacPro's are a true work of art in terms of their fancy case, ability to handle that new fancy and overpriced display, etc.. Its a killer machine, but its simply put a top top tier desktop solution...with a top top price too. With Apple right now you can choose that or one of the all-in-one consumer solutions. mid tier power solution is nonexistent. The trashcan is the last one, still being sold today, and some may prefer that one over the cheese grater, it does have slightly newer CPU (with AVX) and some faster ports, but I still prefer a hot rodded cheesgrater at this point because of PCI slots and internal drive bays. 

I think in 3-5 years, it will be possible to get one of these new fancy MacPros for less money...that may be an option. or perhaps Apple will pull their head out and give us a mid tier tower. I'm not holding my breathe though. They never really did last time. I had to wait fro cheese graters to be available on the used market before i could justify one. I've never paid more than $3000 for a computer and don't really plan to start now.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 4, 2019)

Damarus said:


> Yeah its pretty absurd how high its priced right now. Not even the 5,1 or 6,1 Mac pros were that high I dont think?



I think it's pretty evident at this point that the Mac Pro 7,1 isn't targeting the same market as the Mac Pro 5,1 (and prior). I see the new Mac Pro 7,1 as more like a Power Mac 9600 (maximum expandability at any price) while the Mac Pro 5,1 was more like the Power Mac 8600 (good expandability at a good price).

I personally think there's a giant hole in Apple's lineup where a Mac Mini Pro would fit nicely. One can dream.


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## mc_deli (Dec 4, 2019)

Damarus said:


> That was not my point. My point was, stop buying shit thats almost 8+ years old because its viable NOW.
> 
> Again if everyone reading this is not concerned about performance-per-dollar then these discussions are irrelevant.
> 
> I mean seriously guys - this is the multi-threaded score for a mini. The iMac is way higher. not to mention Thunderbolt 3 everything


Very good point. Maxed out 64GB aftermarket RAM, 512 SSD and extra HD 2018 Mac Mini comes out at about the same as a maxed 96GB 2012 MP (about 2200 euros inc tax for me).

For me that makes the Mini a very easy choice over the cheese grater.


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## jbuhler (Dec 4, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> In the time since Logic Pro X was released, Ableton has released 2 major versions with *a ton* of new features. Max4Live integration and devices, new synths, new plugins, completely new rewritten UI engine, libraries, etc. And let's not forget about their expansion into hardware with 2 versions of Push, or releasing a crossplatform SDK/protocol (Link) for syncing musical apps.
> 
> Or look at Bitwig, a super small company that in just the last 5 years has released 3 major versions of its crossplatform DAW. The last one includes a complete modular environment.
> 
> ...


Every 10.x update has had major improvements included. Many of the lesser updates have included substantial Improvements and added features. There are lots of new plugins and instruments that have been added. In terms of my usability, Logic has improved more in the last five years than Studio One, which is the other DAW I use a lot. I didn’t make the move to Ableton 10, but progress on it was also at or behind the rate of Logic during the period I kept them both active and I did have a Push though I never liked the workflow. 

My only concern with Logic is that Apple may decide to do to it what they did to Final Cut Pro. Since they did it to FCP, there is always that danger.


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Symfoniq said:


> I think it's pretty evident at this point that the Mac Pro 7,1 isn't targeting the same market as the Mac Pro 5,1 (and prior). I see the new Mac Pro 7,1 as more like a Power Mac 9600 (maximum expandability at any price) while the Mac Pro 5,1 was more like the Power Mac 8600 (good expandability at a good price).
> 
> I personally think there's a giant hole in Apple's lineup where a Mac Mini Pro would fit nicely. One can dream.



Which definitely makes me feel that there is a Mac Mini Pro or somthing to fill that gap coming in the near future. Or maybe Apple doesnt see it that way lol


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> They are worth every penny of $2k. I don’t think you can get a loaded up cheese grater for $1000 yet.



Two things. First, I agree they're absolutely worth every penny of $2k - if you already own one. My objection to spending that much for one today is just that it seems like to invest in a 10-year-old machine.

If I were spending that much I'd be looking at the machines I mentioned. They weren't around when I was looking three years ago.

Second, I just looked, and there actually are several with 3.06 or slightly below 3.46GHz processors and 32GB for well under $1K! That's a viable option if you don't want to invest a lot of money (relatively) right now. They're not going to lose a lot of value if you decide to upgrade.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I share this concern ^^. I'm running a 5,1 that was refurbished with a new 12 core some years ago. It's great today but not sure if Catalina is possible or not.



It is, but you'll have to update all your 32-bit programs (which is why I'm not doing it).

As I just said, for $1K it's a great machine. For $2K it's not as good a deal - although all Macs are more expensive in Europe, from what I understand, so the scale is shifted.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Not at the site I mentioned that warranties them. Totally used in eBay I have no idea I would rather pay a bit more for a reputable refurbisher. And I also don’t know if the stuff you are quoting is a true 5,1 or one of the 2009’s with a firmware update, how much ram does it have, does it have ssd, does it have rx580, etc it all adds up. I personally think it’s closer to $2k shipped for machines like you and i have. 

make no mistake this would not be a ten year purchase. It would be a 2k purchase for five years or less, giving Apple time to pull their head out


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

Pier Bover said:


> In the time since Logic Pro X was released



The important question is how good the program is to start with, not how often it's updated!

So I personally wouldn't care even if that were true, but it really isn't. Have you looked at the version update lists?

There have been several *major* updates to Logic X, and each one has a huge list of features, improvements, and most importantly fixes - and I mean that literally, like dozens. Instead of coming out with new sub-versions literally every week when they were Emagic, they come out with new releases every few months.

This argument about Apple not being serious about Logic - you know, they only care about iPhone, they don't care about professionals, bla bla bla - is simply not grounded in reality.

Logic is one very good reason I wouldn't want to switch to Windows for my main machine. But it's not the only one.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> Totally used in eBay I have no idea I would rather pay a bit more for a reputable refurbisher. And I also don’t know if the stuff you are quoting is a true 5,1 or one of the 2009’s with a firmware update, how much ram does it have, does it have ssd, does it have rx580, etc it all adds up. I personally think it’s closer to $2k shipped for machines like you and i have.



My machine came from ebay. It's a flashed 4,1, as most of them are. The only difference I know of - other than three years - is the video card (replaced, as you know). The video card is an extra expense.

But sure, if you know a reputable refurbisher, it's probably worth paying more.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Logic was a still getting updated and for now i think just as relevant as the other daws. It’s an expense for Apple though they aren’t even trying to make money on it aned I’m sure they aren’t. Hard to say what Apple will do in the future there is always a chance they could abandon that expense someday. I think we’re safe for the foreseeable future.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

If you have a flashed cheese grater then it’s worth less then mine. I personally would not choose one of those I want a true 5,1 and they are priced higher I’m sure that explains the discrepancy. I would just like to state again I had very good experience buying from a reputable refurbisher. Buying from random people on eBay, I agree I would not spend over $1k either but also don’t reccomend that


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

Damarus said:


> Okay I get it, the 5,1 Mac Pro was the peak of innovation for Apple. Very modular and still keeps up to this day.
> 
> CPU, RAM, I/O and Storage is really what concerns us Modern day Composers.
> 
> ...



This is the problem with looking only at annoyingly stupid benchmark specs.

The only important spec is whether the machine will do what you need it to do. If you are gagging an SSD on a SATA 2 bus, your music sucks and you're wasting your money on *any* computer.

(20% serious only, but that 20% is serious)


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I personally would not choose one of those I want a true 5,1 and they are priced higher I’m sure that explains the discrepancy.



Why would you only want a "true" 5,1? There are very few of those around, and they're the identical machine.


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## JohnG (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> I don't plan on leaving Mojave with my 5,1.



I'm using High Sierra -- mind you, my computer was refurbished by a guy who lives in Santa Monica and seems to know what he's doing. No problems in years of use.

If anyone wants to contact him please PM me. I will certainly go to him if I need a new computer; he recently replaced my power supply.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Why would you only want a "true" 5,1? There are very few of those around, and they're the identical machine.



But they are around. Especially from reputable refurbishes that are in the business of acquiring them and/or parts and putting them together. .When you buy from random people on the internet, they might easily mis represent an older flashed one, or they might not even know. The reputable refurbishes are straight up about it.

Why does it matter? It may or may not ever matter. For me its peace of mind. They are different computers. Even though yours is flashed in order to pretend to be newer then it is, it may fool OSX into working, etc.. but technically its not the same and so far so good, but for example, you may not be able to get Catalina to work on it, while the 5,1 probably will. Just hypothesizing. I know when I upgraded the CPU on mine, what I found was that I needed to buy a different kit for mine then what you would need to buy. They are different computers. Yours is just tricking OSX into letting it run on it with a faster CPU...and that works for Mojave. We shall see about Catalina.

Some people might even pay a little more for a 2012 then a 2010 even though those truly are exactly the same computer. But just knowing that one is officially 2012 vs the other 2010, gives some people a better peace of mind somehow, therefore, its worth a little more.

But the flashed 4,1's, I'm really happy that those people have been able to keep them going, but still...it is what it is...its basically a hackintosh now. And its not quite the same as the 2010-12...I can't remember the exact spec differences. I seem to recall there are some differences with the PCI buss too.. Starting with Catlina my 5,1 will be a hackintosh too... albeit a newer generation then the 4,1, flashed or not. 

In any case, I personally avoided the flashed ones when I shopped for mine that was a decision I made and chose to spend more. I think a $1000 flashed one would certain be an entirely interesting stop gap measure. I mean hell, use it for a year or two and you got your money's worth. But I prefer the 2012 variety at this point.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

JohnG said:


> I'm using High Sierra --



Highly recommend getting an RX580 or RX560 vid card and running Mojave. I was a hold out on Sierra for a really long time, but [email protected] convinced me to upgrade to Mojave and it made a very positive improvement in performance. Mojave is really stable and great for these boxes, highly recommend. 

Catalina, no stay away...


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Just found this Nick: 

So if you ever do decide you want to run Catalina...there is still hope....


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> But they are around. Especially from reputable refurbishes that are in the business of acquiring them and/or parts and putting them together. .When you buy from random people on the internet, they might easily mis represent an older flashed one, or they might not even know. The reputable refurbishes are straight up about it.
> 
> Why does it matter? It may or may not ever matter. For me its peace of mind. They are different computers. Even though yours is flashed in order to pretend to be newer then it is, it may fool OSX into working, etc.. but technically its not the same and so far so good, but for example, you may not be able to get Catalina to work on it, while the 5,1 probably will. Just hypothesizing. I know when I upgraded the CPU on mine, what I found was that I needed to buy a different kit for mine then what you would need to buy. They are different computers. Yours is just tricking OSX into letting it run on it with a faster CPU...and that works for Mojave. We shall see about Catalina.
> 
> ...


I also managed to get a straight 5,1 
As I understand it, the only difference is they have a different CPU Tray, which cannot be mixed up between models.

Did pay a little more for a proper 2012 machine though... need to get those CPUs upgraded to the top ones still and put more RAM in.


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This is the problem with looking only at annoyingly stupid benchmark specs.
> 
> The only important spec is whether the machine will do what you need it to do. If you are gagging an SSD on a SATA 2 bus, your music sucks and you're wasting your money on *any* computer.
> 
> (20% serious only, but that 20% is serious)



Meh, benchmarks are just a piece of the puzzle. Also not sure what the SSD reference was about but a cheap SSD can peak around 500MB/s - which is more than SATA 2..

I would rather have more headroom on my machine, especially for the cost.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

when you do that, what I recommend is that you buy a cpu board that comes with RAM as a kit, and sell your old one as a kit. easier to sell and you get a bunch better trade in value on the old ram and CPU. I practically broke even upgrading from 3.33ghz 12 core 64gb to 3.46 12 core 128gb. Not quite but close. 

Upgrading the CPU on these is dead simple. Slide out the board and slide the other one in. So easy. You can find many people selling those boards with and without ram. I bought mine from the same people I bought the computer from originally, then sold my old board+ram on ebay.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Damarus said:


> Meh, benchmarks are just a piece of the puzzle. Also not sure what the SSD reference was about but a cheap SSD can peak around 500MB/s - which is more than SATA 2..
> 
> I would rather have more headroom on my machine, especially for the cost.



you have to get a SATA3 PCI board if you want sata3 speeds. which I have. And it clocks around 500MB/s, a little higher than that. actually the board I have just mounts two SSD's on it directly. The 5,1 can accommodate 500MB/s sata3, that's all I'm saying. That's the beauty of a machine that has an actual PCI bus on it, as opposed to the mini/iMac's.


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## Damarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> you have to get a SATA3 PCI board if you want sata3 speeds. which I have. And it clocks around 500MB/s, a little higher than that. actually the board I have just mounts two SSD's on it directly. The 5,1 can accommodate 500MB/s sata3, that's all I'm saying.  That's the beauty of a machine that has an actual PCI bus on it, as opposed to the mini/iMac's.



Totally - was just referencing Nick's SATA 2 comment.

Allllthoughhhh it doesnt make a huge difference in DAW stuff like the switch from HDD to SSD did - the PCIe drives in the Mini/iMacs are stupid fast.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

I agree, honestly it makes a difference on benchmarks, I seriously doubt its making any difference for loading daw projects or ssd streaming performance either. I bought the sata3 card as an experiment, so I can say I have it...but...not really needed. Yet another reason to be perfectly satisfied with a 2012 cheese grater. or a flashed 4,1 for that matter.


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## Michael Antrum (Dec 4, 2019)

I’ve got three of those pci SATA 3 card in my flashed 4,1 - with 6 X 2tb SSDs. I stuck in an RX590, a bunch of inexpensive ram from eBay, and it’s a pretty sold bit of kit. Runs Mojave really well,
.

i bought it new in 2009 and its the best computer I ever bought.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

ooh there's an RX590 now. Fun!


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

By the way, here are geekbench scores for my 5,1 MacPro... 

As you can see, it compares very favorable to many newer mac's, in terms of multi-core score. 12 cores will do that. Its not as favorable for single-core, but you can see approximately where it sits in the pecking order... not that it matters that much.... Having a higher single-core ability may come handy sometime if I ever get a software instrument that is hard on the CPU. So far...it hasn't been an issue.

My score with Geekbench5: Single-core=*673*, Multi-core = *6451*

From Geekbench site, here are other recently tested macs and their scores in the same general range...

*Multi-core*







*Single-core*


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> But the flashed 4,1's, I'm really happy that those people have been able to keep them going, but still...it is what it is...its basically a hackintosh now. And its not quite the same as the 2010-12...I can't remember the exact spec differences. I seem to recall there are some differences with the PCI buss too..



It's the identical machine with a different stock video card, and the firmware update comes from Apple - it's not a hack (although I guess replacing the processors is). There's really no difference other than the times of the production runs (and three years of age, of course). 

About This Mac knows it's a 2009 and calls it a 5,1.









Damarus said:


> Also not sure what the SSD reference was about but a cheap SSD can peak around 500MB/s - which is more than SATA 2..
> 
> I would rather have more headroom on my machine, especially for the cost.



Sure, all things being equal, more headroom is good.

The internal SSD bus on a 4,1 and 5,1 is SATA 2, which is 300MB/s vs. SATA 3's 600MB/s. Michael Antrum has three SATA 3 cards. I have one that I bought as an experiment, and in my experience it makes no difference, but that's a separate discussion we've had here several times.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

sorry its not an _identical_ machine. Close though. 2010 and 2012 are identical. 2009 is not identical.

I believe the firmware flash does enable it to have the same capabilities as 2010-12 across the board, but the way you go about upgrading the CPU's is different...They are running different firmwares as well. They are not identical. They may have identical performance and capabilities.

I read something about fans running full speed or something, I don't know. I thought I had read the PCI buses are different, but in looking it up just now I think that was the 3,1 that was different that way.

Didn't mean any kind of slam by calling it a hackintosh, but sorry to say our MacPro's are now hackintoshes since they will require hackery to run Catalina. I didn't know the firmware flash for the 4,1's was officially supported from Apple, that is good to know.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 4, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> 2010 and 2012 are identical. 2009 is not identical



They are once you flash them, upgrade the processors, and change video cards.

Also, a lot of these machines just have processor tray swaps, i.e. the tray isn't the original one anyway. But there's no difference.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 4, 2019)

Alight, well what do I know. If the CPU swap is different then they don't seem identical to me. There is something physically different in the hardware. When I was upgrading my 5,1's CPU tray there were warnings all over every ebay listing to be careful bout whether it was a 5,1 or a flashed-4,1. Different trays in each case.

I agree with you that they should function identically, but me personally, I feel safer having a true 5,1

Looking around the net just now I see quite a lot of heated debates on different forums about whether paying extra money for a 5,1 is worth it... hehe. peace!


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## mc_deli (Dec 4, 2019)

When I quoted 2200 Eur earlier it was for a 4,1 flashed to 5,1 with 12 core 3,46, 96 GB, 575 graphics, Sata 3 card, SSD boot, USB3 card, extra drive - so close to “max” spec without going to a 580/590 video card or adding more sata3 cards.

Apple state Mojave is the last officially supported for the 5,1. 

You are lovely people.

I’m still torn between the max Mini and 3.1 ghz iMac and it’s purely down to a niggle about graphics performance for rare “luxury” gaming. Without that niggle the Mini i7 512 SSD (64gb OWC ram upgrade) is an easy winner over the cheeseg8rrr or iMac family at this point of @2k euros. IMHO of course.


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## LinusW (Dec 5, 2019)

Talk you out of an iMac? Won't happen.


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## lokotus (Dec 5, 2019)

for heavy sample orchestrating go windows with VEP and Cubase. Beats Logic on mac unless you have a lot of money to invest in apple RAM, CPU etc...


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## Damarus (Dec 5, 2019)

LinusW said:


> Talk you out of an iMac? Won't happen.



Lol well thats an odd amount of RAM


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## 5Lives (Dec 5, 2019)

I don’t understand these posts where the OP has clearly stated they are choosing a Mac and yet people pop in saying “go PC!” as if the OP has never heard of Windows. There are many benefits of Mac just as there are with PC. Why jump into these threads with that when the OP is clearly sticking with the Mac ecosystem?

In terms of buying a cheese grater, IMO that’s a horrible idea. While it may be “enough” for some people given the libraries they have, that doesn’t scale well to all users - especially those that are investing in newer libraries and plugins that need more power. The outdated ports will prevent you from using newer and future peripherals as well. It essentially will box you into a bygone era and tech.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 5, 2019)

Damarus said:


> Lol well thats an odd amount of RAM



You'll see this a lot with iMacs, as they ship with two of the four RAM slots populated. So LinusW's iMac most likely shipped with 8 GB of RAM, and he added 32 GB of a total of 40 GB.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 5, 2019)

lokotus said:


> for heavy sample orchestrating go windows with VEP and Cubase. Beats Logic on mac unless you have a lot of money to invest in apple RAM, CPU etc...



Wrong. The correct answer is for everyone to use what I use and agree with everything I say, unless you want to waste your money and be a chump, etc.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 5, 2019)

hbjdk said:


> I think he’s excused for suggesting a pc.



That's an oxymoron!


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## mc_deli (Dec 6, 2019)

LinusW said:


> Talk you out of an iMac? Won't happen.


Hyvää itsenäisyyspäivä!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

Is posting your computer's serial number a security risk?

Serious question inspired by Linus' post.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 6, 2019)

doubt it


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## Pier (Dec 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The important question is how good the program is to start with, not how often it's updated!



I think the important question is actually "how good it could be if the developer really cared about it".

Anyway, we all have our opinions. No more Logic criticism in this thread, pinky promise.


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## handz (Dec 6, 2019)

New 2019 imacs are great for the price. I have late 2015 one and I do hardcore graphic work there + music video editing. The monitor is awesome, it looks great. You can get a better PC for this price but it will be an ugly box and there simply is not a nice looking display out there and windows 10 and newer is a horrible mess. Get a 2019 i7 imac buy 64gb ram separately (not from apple!!!) and you are safe.


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## lokotus (Dec 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Wrong. The correct answer is for everyone to use what I use and agree with everything I say, unless you want to waste your money and be a chump, etc.


base on my experience spending 3000 euros with apple laptop and logic vs spending 3000 euros on a windows pc with 128gb ram, several ssd , powerful cpu and cubase I can be 99 percent sure that apple is a waste of time if you have a limited budget and want to work with a decent powerful computer...


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## lokotus (Dec 6, 2019)

disconnect win 10 from internet and update once a year. use a laptop mac for surfing. win10 is no longer a mess but a very stable workhouse. my experience base on 4 years mac followed by 6 years windows


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

lokotus said:


> base on my experience spending 3000 euros with apple laptop and logic vs spending 3000 euros on a windows pc with 128gb ram, several ssd , powerful cpu and cubase I can be 99 percent sure that apple is a waste of time if you have a limited budget and want to work with a decent powerful computer...



NO. Everyone must use my tools.

I use Logic and Pro Tools on a Mac (with one current - only nine years old - Windows slave that I turn on once in a while), and if you don't then you are not as good a person.

Irrefutable fact based on my experience in life. And the reason there's more than one program is so people have the opportunity to fail.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

Mic drop.


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## lokotus (Dec 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> NO. Everyone must use my tools.
> 
> I use Logic and Pro Tools on a Mac (with one current - only nine years old - Windows slave that I turn on once in a while), and if you don't then you are not as good a person.
> 
> Irrefutable fact based on my experience in life. And the reason there's more than one program is so people have the opportunity to fail.


i am certainly sure i will not be able to talk you out of a mac...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 6, 2019)

lokotus said:


> i am certainly sure i will not be able to talk you out of a mac...



Why prejudge?


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 6, 2019)

Psst. Hey, buddy! Don't get an iMac.


(Did that work?)


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## Damarus (Dec 6, 2019)

Wheres the button to close this thread..


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## tmpc (Dec 6, 2019)

Both platforms have pluses and minuses. I had been an Apple only user for many years, but bought a windows machine about a year ago. Believe it or not, one of the big pluses for me on a Mac is the incremental backups with versioning offered by Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC). With Windows, you are still stuck with either full backups or differential backups. Speed-wise, CCC is like differential backups on a PC, BUT if you have to reinstall everything, CCC is faster and more reliable. You can even boot the Mac from the backup drive. Full disclosure: I don't trust "the cloud" and don't backup to it.

The downside of Apple is their now yearly OS releases that always cause problems with existing software. I don't like being forced to update a whole bunch of software every year because of an OS update.

In my current setup, I am running an older Mac OS (if it ain't broke, don't update it), and backup all of my PC music files to the Mac. I get the best of both worlds. If anything happens to the PC, I simply reload my full backup and then get the files off of the Mac.


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## handz (Dec 7, 2019)

lokotus said:


> base on my experience spending 3000 euros with apple laptop and logic vs spending 3000 euros on a windows pc with 128gb ram, several ssd , powerful cpu and cubase I can be 99 percent sure that apple is a waste of time if you have a limited budget and want to work with a decent powerful computer...


This all sounds good on paper but the reality is - you are stuck with a horrible WINDOWS 10 now..


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## handz (Dec 7, 2019)

tmpc said:


> The downside of Apple is their now yearly OS releases that always cause problems with existing software. I don't like being forced to update a whole bunch of software every year because of an OS update.


ehm, you do not have to update... I did not on my MacBook pro for like 4 years


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## mc_deli (Dec 7, 2019)

In non-PC news... I have just found out that the Mac Minis and iMacs round my way are no longer shipping with Mojave and instead Sh**alina.

This is not good news as well, I see potential problems with my software from Roland, Toontracks, Moog and a few others - or at least the situation is not quite clear. I haven't been able to find conclusive info on Diva yet either.

It seems that an immediate ungrade from Catalina to Mojave would make a lot of sense and doesn't seem too complicated.


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## tmpc (Dec 7, 2019)

handz said:


> ehm, you do not have to update... I did not on my MacBook pro for like 4 years


Yes, that is where I've been for quite a while (I'm on OS X 10.11), but eventually a software update will appear that fixes an annoying bug that requires an OS update, but if you update some other piece of software will no longer work. Yes, this can happen with Windows, but it isn't every freaking year as it is now is with macOS.


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## Damarus (Dec 7, 2019)

handz said:


> This all sounds good on paper but the reality is - you are stuck with a horrible WINDOWS 10 now..



Tell us how you really feel


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## tmpc (Dec 7, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> It seems that an immediate ungrade from Catalina to Mojave would make a lot of sense and doesn't seem too complicated.


Not if Apple still enforces the rule that you can't install an OS before the one that shipped with your new computer . . . and I believe they do. Another great Apple "feature".


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 7, 2019)

They don't impose that rule. That has been the case a few times that a new model came out which would not run on an older version of the OS, but not always the case and certainly, existing models that can run Mojave today can still run Mojave tomorrow even if you bought it after Catalina came out and it shipped with catalina.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 7, 2019)

The new Mac Pro will be available to order on Tuesday, December 10th, if the OP still wants to be talked out of an iMac...


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## tmpc (Dec 7, 2019)

Dewdman42 said:


> They don't impose that rule. That has been the case a few times that a new model came out which would not run on an older version of the OS, but not always the case and certainly, existing models that can run Mojave today can still run Mojave tomorrow even if you bought it after Catalina came out and it shipped with catalina.


How do you know when you buy it?


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## mc_deli (Dec 8, 2019)

tmpc said:


> How do you know when you buy it?


The current Mac Mini line is from 2018, the iMacs date from March 2019. There are plenty pf people with these running Mojave and buying with Catalina and going back to Mojave. The new Mac Pro though... shipping after the launch of Catalina.. may well not be able to go back... dunno


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 8, 2019)

exactly.


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## tmpc (Dec 8, 2019)

That's definitely good to know. Have you ever heard of Apple updating something in last years machine that creates this problem? In other words, you buy it thinking you can go back to an earlier OS but find that for some reason you can't.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 8, 2019)

I can remember it happening once or twice, but I can't remember specifics now.

generally speaking, Apple makes money if you buy their hardware, not when you run OSX. They are not THAT motivated to get everyone running on the latest version of OSX. A little bit sure just to keep things simple, but in general, what they want is for us to buy their new computers. IMHO the reason sometimes new machines are unable to run older OSX has purely to do with the fact that the new machine requires some driver or OS capability that Apple did not back port to the older version of OSX. That would cost money. So they are not motivated to back port anything really. If the new MacPro requires new drivers or anything new in the OSX Catalina operating system in some way... then you won't be able to roll it back to Mojave. But its not a given that it will require anything new like that either. We just have to wait and see.

It has happened in the past, but I can't remember exact specifics now sorry...


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## lokotus (Dec 9, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Why prejudge?


gut feeling


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## soundmind (Dec 22, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> In non-PC news... I have just found out that the Mac Minis and iMacs round my way are no longer shipping with Mojave and instead Sh**alina.
> 
> This is not good news as well, I see potential problems with my software from Roland, Toontracks, Moog and a few others - or at least the situation is not quite clear. I haven't been able to find conclusive info on Diva yet either.
> 
> It seems that an immediate ungrade from Catalina to Mojave would make a lot of sense and doesn't seem too complicated.



Not sure if you have already made your decision, but I did just receive my iMac i9 shipped with Mojave. Maybe it is because I purchased a VESA mount version, or location (eastern US), but I thought I’d let you know.

Also, Diva has recently been updated for Catalina. Best of luck to you.


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## mc_deli (Dec 23, 2019)

soundmind said:


> Not sure if you have already made your decision, but I did just receive my iMac i9 shipped with Mojave. Maybe it is because I purchased a VESA mount version, or location (eastern US), but I thought I’d let you know.
> 
> Also, Diva has recently been updated for Catalina. Best of luck to you.


That is good.
And retro switch to Mojave from Catalina looks easy enough if necessary.

I have a confession: I got a new quote for the i9  I have the funds and I think it makes sense to get the extra HP and hopefully increase in useful life.

How is the new beast?


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## soundmind (Dec 23, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> That is good.
> And retro switch to Mojave from Catalina looks easy enough if necessary.
> 
> I have a confession: I got a new quote for the i9  I have the funds and I think it makes sense to get the extra HP and hopefully increase in useful life.
> ...



Still in the process of moving everything over and setting up, but I’m extremely happy so far. Coming from a 2008 Mac Pro, so of course the upgrade is going to be a world of difference. Also purchased 128GB ram, SSD’s, swappable dual enclosure, new midi I/O for my rack gear (my perfectly good one doesn’t have drivers beyond El Capitan), and a couple of other things.

Would have preferred to stay with the Mac Pro design, but the iMac i9 hit the sweet spot for me. And it was icing on the cake installed with Mojave, as I want to wait to update to Catalina for a while. I’ll give you an update when I start up a session with the new configuration.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 23, 2019)

I personally think the i9 is the sweet spot for DAW work. I am going to post an interesting comparison post soon...stay tuned.


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## 5Lives (Dec 23, 2019)

I just bought the i9 8 core iMac (refurbished plus 6% cash back on Apple Card - great deal IMO). Comes with 64GB RAM and 1TB SSD.


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## soundmind (Dec 29, 2019)

mc_deli said:


> That is good.
> And retro switch to Mojave from Catalina looks easy enough if necessary.
> 
> I have a confession: I got a new quote for the i9  I have the funds and I think it makes sense to get the extra HP and hopefully increase in useful life.
> ...


I don’t have any specific tests, but the performance of the iMac i9 is very impressive to me. Previous projects or even certain VI’s would bring my ‘08 Mac Pro to a crawl. Now I can perform all of these tasks with ease, and with my buffer set at 256 instead of 512. I have even tried a few instances with the buffer at 128 with very little issues, so I may explore that a bit more.

I use Studio One, and they have had cpu issues in the past which they have improved upon, so for me being able to run at 256 is pure happiness. At this point, the iMac i9 has been a great purchase.


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