# Mastering Orchestral Music



## marky7400 (Aug 15, 2016)

Hi I am new to this forum so hi everyone ! I work as a composer but want to get the best result when mastering. My mixes sound too thin and not as loud as other mixes after mastering. Does anyone have any tips on mastering, particularly orchestral tracks ?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 16, 2016)

marky7400 said:


> Hi I am new to this forum so hi everyone ! I work as a composer but want to get the best result when mastering. My mixes sound too thin and not as loud as other mixes after mastering. Does anyone have any tips on mastering, particularly orchestral tracks ?



The issue is that mastering a bad mixed track doesn´t make it great sounding. Ask yourself why there are issues in the mix? It can be reasons like the following:

- No effective Orchestration
- Missbalanced Template in General
- Wrong treatment of dynamics

etc.

But to give you an observation you have to share a piece from you. I don´t know where the problem is in your track, maybe the balance and orchestration is fine and maybe you treat your track like a pop production and that is the reason why it does sound thin and sterile? Could you provide an example of your work?


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## marky7400 (Aug 16, 2016)

Hi Alexander, thanks a lot for the message. Here is a link to my sound cloud file :


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## JohnG (Aug 16, 2016)

Hi there,

If what you want is a Giant Wall Of Power, I suggest you put your track up next to one you admire in that genre and compare the writing first, then the mixing. It isn't your mastering that is the main impediment, although better mastering will eventually improve the effect you're trying to achieve.

One thing that would help is to picture a real orchestra and how it would sound. For example, at around 1'55" you have a repeating ostinato in the strings with percussion punctuation and brass gestures. In a real orchestra, it wouldn't sound like that at all in relative volume. Drums and brass are "real loud" when they do that stuff. Like, blow-your-head-off loud. Plus, the sound you're using for the strings is so close it sounds like you're about five feet from them.

Listen to a favourite track very, very carefully and try gradually, section by section, to approach the sound you want to imitate. Choose mic positions very carefully. Look for podcasts or Youtube from Spitfire or Two Steps from Hell (Nick Phoenix and Thomas Bergersen) or maybe one of the music libraries that specialise in trailer music. Sometimes people reveal a lot.

It might be useful to listen to a track from a composer you don't always listen to; in this case you could check out the more raucous bits of Jerry Goldsmith's "The Mummy." That score is conspicuous for the rawness of its sound, especially the brass and percussion but just overall; it sounds like a brawl in the orchestra in places. The samples you're using and the way you're using them are more tame and end up feeling monotonous and repetitious as a result. People are forgetting, with today's approach to recording film music, that it isn't just electric guitars and synths that buzz and rattle and hum.

Also, you never change harmonic centre in three minutes. That's a long time to stay in one pitch location. I realise that it happens in film music but, particularly if one is working solely with samples, that is a long time.

[edit: Waywyn, member with next post below, had some good Youtube "how-to" videos up some time back. He is also a good source of information]


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## Waywyn (Aug 16, 2016)

To be honest when just listening to your track it seems to be definitely not the mastering but the writing.

The problem is that there are many tracks out there who suffer from the same problem. Even if it is long and sustained notes (which isn't a problem really) there is a lot of chordal/harmonic writing missing ... and if this is not the main problem, then it lacks a lot of details, like very subtle sounding pounding fast 16th drums, very fast string staccato lines (not just talking the Action Strings pattern here) ... also I don't hear any woodwind colors, no cello/trombone ranged instruments. Also the reverb does a lot, but then it could sound kind of washy very quickly ... assuming the writing is right, it is also always a matter of layering (would it help to add all instruments again with a second lib etc.) or too few channels used  ...

One famous composer also told me, that if you think a track is done, always try to fill it up with another 5-15 instrument track!  Shouldn't mean to just slam the track at all costs, but mostly add all those little things which usually are not that obvious!

As John mentioned above. Listen to compositions from famous people and try to listen very closely, with headphones etc. ... you will find all those little things which are not really obvious and in your face ... in my opinion a track gets really epic or this wall of sound when there are tons of little things which enable to huge stuff to breathe!


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## marky7400 (Aug 16, 2016)

Brilliant advice there guys, thanks a lot ! I will definitely examine all these issues more closely now. Thanks a lot for the help here !


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## erica-grace (Aug 16, 2016)

Good advice up there! 

Two things I would add:

1. "How to make your tracks louder" starts with the orchestration, yes, but you also need to know how to produce. Proper use of compression and limiting are essential. There are a number of threads on the Cubase forum about this, as well as elsewhere.

2. That violin figure is the identical figure to a Ninja Trakcs track:



1:41

So, you have to be careful there.


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## Waywyn (Aug 16, 2016)

erica-grace ... the used violin figure is part of Action Strings. I admit it was a bit overused in all kinds of projects, also Need for Speed soundtrack and so on, but still everyone is free to use it. I even used it in my demo for Action Strings back then!


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Aug 16, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> 2. That violin figure is the identical figure to a Ninja Trakcs track:



and here at 1:19


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## erica-grace (Aug 16, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> erica-grace ... the used violin figure is part of Action Strings



So wait - the composer who did the Crysis 3 soundtrack and the composer who did the MazeRunner trailer - they got that figure from Action Strings, instead of writing something of their own???


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## patrick76 (Aug 16, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> So wait - the composer who did the Crysis 3 soundtrack and the composer who did the MazeRunner trailer - they got that figure from Action Strings, instead of writing something of their own???


Music by numbers, 1,2,3, it's as easy to learn as your A,B,C's...


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## Waywyn (Aug 17, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> So wait - the composer who did the Crysis 3 soundtrack and the composer who did the MazeRunner trailer - they got that figure from Action Strings, instead of writing something of their own???



Yep, even worse, around 92% of all drummers do the same Uff(1) Ta(2) Uff(3) Uff(3+) Ta(4) drumbeat!
Also something around 50% of all blues songs start with: When I woke up this morning ...
The same goes for church songs, almost everyone ends with: Amen
I also found out that a lot of classical music ends with the notes: B, A, B, C, A, G, .. GGGGGG

It is really terrible how musicians and composers don't come up with their own stuff


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## jononotbono (Aug 17, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> Yep, even worse, around 92% of all drummers do the same Uff(1) Ta(2) Uff(3) Uff(3+) Ta(4) drumbeat!
> Also something around 50% of all blues songs start with: When I woke up this morning ...
> The same goes for church songs, almost everyone ends with: Amen
> I also found out that a lot of classical music ends with the notes: B, A, B, C, A, G, .. GGGGGG
> ...



Classic!


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## pixel (Aug 17, 2016)

Great advice about orchestration above. I Just want to add that next after that is mix and then far afar away from there is mastering which is just cherry on the cake. You can't do typical mix/mastering like in Pop music because that way all dynamics will gone, which is not a problem in Pop music where by 99% of the time dynamics are constant. 

Rather gentle VCA type of compression + limiter on channels and busses to cut some peaks so on final file you will have more headroom to rise volume. It gives you much better effect than one compressor/limiter on master channel.

For drums, parallel compression is your friend - you can beef up your drums, fatten them and preserve transients. In this type of music drums are rather compressed hard. You can even experiment with distortion/saturation/exciter as drums in this example are not 'in your face' and they should be. 

I know that my latest 'EP' in that style of music was processed with Thiermionic Culture Vulture in mastering process which is valve harmonic distortion/enhancer but it was done carefully by mastering guy who know what he is doing.


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## patrick76 (Aug 17, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> Yep, even worse, around 92% of all drummers do the same Uff(1) Ta(2) Uff(3) Uff(3+) Ta(4) drumbeat!
> Also something around 50% of all blues songs start with: When I woke up this morning ...
> The same goes for church songs, almost everyone ends with: Amen
> I also found out that a lot of classical music ends with the notes: B, A, B, C, A, G, .. GGGGGG
> ...


It's too much work to come up with your own 4 or 5 note figure, that's what the ghost writers are for!


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## marky7400 (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks guys, I do have a lot more variation in other works, the posted track is more of a test to be honest but the advice is invaluable !


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## erica-grace (Aug 17, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> Yep, even worse, around 92% of all drummers do the same Uff(1) Ta(2) Uff(3) Uff(3+) Ta(4) drumbeat!
> Also something around 50% of all blues songs start with: When I woke up this morning ...
> The same goes for church songs, almost everyone ends with: Amen
> I also found out that a lot of classical music ends with the notes: B, A, B, C, A, G, .. GGGGGG



I understand where you are coming from, but the comparison is only partly realistic.

What you point out is in fact true; however, writing a song that contains the same beat, or blues chord progression that has been used many times over is not the same as copying note-for-note a pattern that has been delivered en masse to the general public via a sample library.


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## Mike Fox (Aug 30, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but the comparison is only partly realistic.
> 
> What you point out is in fact true; however, writing a song that contains the same beat, or blues chord progression that has been used many times over is not the same as copying note-for-note a pattern that has been delivered en masse to the general public via a sample library.


Lesson learned: Don't use Action Strings "out of the box"?


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## Waywyn (Aug 31, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but the comparison is only partly realistic.
> 
> What you point out is in fact true; however, writing a song that contains the same beat, or blues chord progression that has been used many times over is not the same as copying note-for-note a pattern that has been delivered en masse to the general public via a sample library.



Yes, I hear you (and everyone else too criticising this issue) but on the other hand you never ever know anything behind it? Why do people right away assume that someone has been too lazy?

Here are some other things to think about:

- studio called, said they wanted some quick string pattern in there - it is already 3am at night, trailer, theme or whatever piece of music is ging to be mastered or implemented into media campaign in the morning at 7am ... composer at work for almost 48 hours ... thinking: Glad I got Action Strings!

- studio called and said that they absolutely wanted this riff in the track, since it creates so much energy!
Composer tried to come up with own stuff, studio didn't like it! Composer was forced to use it!

- some guy in the postpro pasted this riff over the composer's track since director felt like something is missing!

- studio called and said they liked Alex official Action Strings demo so much, they definitely wanted this element inside their track  (attention, attention: humor detected!!)

- maybe the riff was just spot on, sounded authentic and composer felt he wanted exactly that, gives a shit about whining composers (please take this with a grain of salt) and releases the track, because he is aware that he writes music for people and not other composers!

I mean in the end each of us is always criticising something here and there music related but when it comes to webdesign, graphics, photography and other stuff we are making use of the same available "drag and drop things" as everyone else too - the only difference here is we don't notice the whining photographers, web designers, coders etc.


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## Saxer (Aug 31, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> Why do people right away assume that someone has been too lazy?
> 
> Here are some other things to think about:


- you made two great versions for a trailer music but the studio want to choose from three alternatives. So you make a cheesy fast version which they never will choose and... BAM! they did! 

- you make some fun demos to try out action strings, somebody likes it and offers money.

- a studio guy has a son with a computer. He send you his sons production (one track of action strings) and want you to 'mix' it so it can be used in a trailer. You don't get money because the son is the 'composer' but you at least don't lose a client.

- the action string part is already in an earlier version of the a sequel. You have to use the theme material for part two.

... to be continued...


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## patrick76 (Aug 31, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> Yes, I hear you (and everyone else too criticising this issue) but on the other hand you never ever know anything behind it? Why do people right away assume that someone has been too lazy?
> 
> Here are some other things to think about:
> 
> ...


Hey there, not whining, I'm just sarcastic. Your situational examples are all of course understandable and legitimate. One never knows the reasoning behind any music for media.


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## Waywyn (Aug 31, 2016)

patrick76 said:


> Hey there, not whining, I'm just sarcastic.



That's why I wasn't quoting you!


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