# Expression CC for Brass



## akhill jain (Apr 5, 2022)

For strings (Longs/Legato), the modulation and expression maps are pretty straightforward, but with brass, since there's a sharp attack, I was curious about how would the expression CC be which is essentially volume. I have a fair idea about the mod map which tries to follow the natural attack but am not too sure about the expression to make the performance more dynamic. Any thoughts or suggestions would be of great help. Thank you!

PFA screenshot for the modulation map on brass


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## Snarf (Apr 5, 2022)

It seems you are asking about guidelines for automating CC7 or CC11, to create natural performances.

'Expression maps' has a different, Cubase-specific meaning that relates to switching between articulations.


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## Mr Greg G (Apr 5, 2022)

Snarf is right, you're mistaking MIDI CC programming and Cubase Expression Maps feature.

As to your question, try to imagine yourself blowing in these Brass instruments. Make them breathe, especially rightr before a harsh attack blow, and don't make them play infinite legatos. Make the CC1 fade out a bit as a long note goes on.


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## Zedcars (Apr 5, 2022)

I would edit your post and change 'map' to 'CC'. CC stands for Continuous Controller. As Snarf said, 'Expression Maps' are something else entirely so its a little confusing to read.

With brass you would normally set an initial CC1 (modulation CC) value and optionally CC11 (expression CC) before the note or phrase starts. With a note of about mf and above, the initial attack is too fast to be affected in any meaningful way by CC changes (within the first few miliseconds) and attempting to affect that may lead to an unnatural sound anyway. Subsequent to that you can draw in a CC1 shape to have the contour that fits the musical phrase. With quieter phrases (with low CC1 values) which would normally have a slow attack then you can shape it more from the very beginning.

There will be exceptions to the above so just do what seems appropriate and experiment. If something sounds good then use it.


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## akhill jain (Apr 6, 2022)

Thanks for your responses people, and sorry for the confusion since i'm on logic! Got to learn something new about Cubase too! Cheers!


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## ChrisHarrison (Apr 6, 2022)

You should watch this mike verta video about how he thinks of note attack using expression wheel to replicate real instruments.


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## akhill jain (Apr 7, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> You should watch this mike verta video about how he thinks of note attack using expression wheel to replicate real instruments.



Hey Chris, thanks for sharing. I've already seen this and i follow this technique for the modulation CC that is CC1. It's pretty convincing! I'm primarily looking for tips on CC11- expression. But thanks anyway!


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## PaulieDC (Apr 7, 2022)

Zedcars said:


> I would edit your post and change 'map' to 'CC'. CC stands for Continuous Controller. As Snarf said, 'Expression Maps' are something else entirely so its a little confusing to read.
> 
> With brass you would normally set an initial CC1 (modulation CC) value and optionally CC11 (expression CC) before the note or phrase starts. With a note of about mf and above, the initial attack is too fast to be affected in any meaningful way by CC changes (within the first few miliseconds) and attempting to affect that may lead to an unnatural sound anyway. Subsequent to that you can draw in a CC1 shape to have the contour that fits the musical phrase. With quieter phrases (with low CC1 values) which would normally have a slow attack then you can shape it more from the very beginning.
> 
> There will be exceptions to the above so just do what seems appropriate and experiment. If something sounds good then use it.


It's amazing answers like this that make me realize how much I still don't know. Adding this one to my notes and trying it out! 👍🏼


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## ChrisHarrison (Apr 7, 2022)

I think the question of cc1 and 11 interaction is under addressed. Mike Verta would say cc11 is stupid because it’s fake. It’s not dynamic layer changes… it’s just a volume knob. 

However, the lowest velocities on cc1 are often not “niete” or… turn silence. 
Plus, as a strings player and a conductor, I know there’s a ton of grey space of volume that the cc1 alone doesn’t really get. It can get out of hand and I haven’t mastered it yet. Like… cc1 all the way up and cc11 all the way down is just wrong sounding. 

I have messed with a few concepts. 

1. Treate cc11 as basically dynamic markings. P, mf, f, ff etc. using it to set a base volume and then use cc1 for all shaping of the phrases. 

2. Using breathe controller on cc1 and the mod wheel on cc11 to simply taper phrases and control the dynamic range as stated above 

3. Currently using the lehle dual expression pedal to play cc11 and breath on cc1, using the pedal as a range/taper of phrase endings. 

So far, most realistic on solo instruments for me on wind/brass has been with a little midi keyboard controlling cc11 on mod wheel and cc1 with breath controller. The light keys are on quick and fast like a flute or trumpet and the mod wheel is really light and fast. It takes a little practice but helps when writing/thinking through parts that are blown.


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## LatinXCombo (Apr 13, 2022)

ChrisHarrison said:


> You should watch this mike verta video about how he thinks of note attack using expression wheel to replicate real instruments.



Seriously, why isn't this video stickied someplace? Would've saved me about three months in my learning curve!


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