# "TSOS" | Orchestral Track (Final)



## ka00 (Oct 1, 2018)

I've been working on this track and would really love some brutally honest feedback about composition, orchestration, mix, or whatever you can think of.

This is the longest orchestral track I've worked on to date, so structure and working on the melodies/motifs were were a challenge, but I'm eager to improve.

Thanks for listening and for any thoughts you might have!


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## Jeremy Gillam (Oct 1, 2018)

Man, some people on this forum make me feel like such a hack. Nice work.

I might lose some of the portamento moments. It's not that they don't sound convincing, but they are kind of calling attention to themselves in my opinion.

Not sure about the chimes, not sure about the choir.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Oct 1, 2018)

Nicely done man! Which libraries are you using here? I really enjoy the balance and the consistent swells throughout that provide that realistic touch. The only critique I can really give is that I don't always have a sense of the structure of the piece, so my ear finds itself wanting more to grasp onto in order to realize where the track is going. I hope that makes sense. Great job!


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## Kony (Oct 1, 2018)

Nice track! It felt like the brass were too forte when they first came in. Agree with Jeremy about the choir, but disagree about the portamento - I thought that gave it more emotion


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Oct 1, 2018)

Your harmonic language and expression is fantastic.

I agree with above about the brass - it feels like it needs really nice warm ominously round sound rather than brassy forte imo (if you got ARK 2, try the brass in there!!).

I do also agree with what Alexander has posted below but I do think it's important to understand that you're definitely very talented and your moods, harmonic language and expression are fantastic in all your tracks - just think a bit more organisation and definition is needed.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 1, 2018)

ka00 said:


> I've been working on this track and would really love some brutally honest feedback about composition, orchestration, mix, or whatever you can think of.
> 
> This is the longest orchestral track I've worked on to date, so structure and working on the melodies/motifs were were a challenge, but I'm eager to improve.
> 
> Thanks for listening and for any thoughts you might have!




Now my few cents. First thanks for sharing. Nice track and emotional approach. The breathing effect is cool and the ups and downs are great. Nicely done. The point is: You have no melody actually there which works handy with your progressions and often I can´t make out where you are going with your idea. You should at least make sure to give a bit of satisfaction and when you create tension in your harmonies that you should release the tension e.g. with a resolution. (there are millions of ways but one of the strongest would be a V-I) Otherwise your chord progressions become unfotunately random at times und too unpredictable to follow your idea. And thats the main concern I have here that you don´t trade on those things and the track becomes..slightly a question without giving the audience any answer at all. So in the end I think it is not only a structural thing here but also the harmonic language. I like the harmony, so don´t get me wrong: It is not the harmony but it is the way that it is at times random and too unpredictable to connect. It is thin ice there. Do you have a Piano sketch of this track? That part 1:28 with the loud brass is completely out of context..don´t do that..especially when you dont develop that thing there, it just is totally out of context of this piece. My tip: Mix familiar things with surprising things so that assures you don´t loose the connection with your audience. Also a orchestrational thing: Try to work with more colors..it is all like strings..from the beginning to the end..I mean..well..thats style and if you like that strings all the time, more power to you. But I like color contrast. What is with the woodwinds? They are..in your piece depressed and practically non existent. Why? Don´t you like them? :D Man..they can at least complement colors in the orchestra and better: You can hand over melodic lines for them. :D
Of course everything I said here is just my opinion and just dismiss my post completely if you are happy with your track as it seems the others are too. And sure: Cool track, nothing wrong with it, I just give you some additional thoughts and options.


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## ka00 (Oct 2, 2018)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> Man, some people on this forum make me feel like such a hack. Nice work.
> 
> I might lose some of the portamento moments. It's not that they don't sound convincing, but they are kind of calling attention to themselves in my opinion.
> 
> Not sure about the chimes, not sure about the choir.



Thanks for the kind words, Jeremy! I’ll take another pass paying closer attention to which portamento moments feel unmerited.

I think I need a bit more time to work on dynamics of the choir. Hopefully can improve it.


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## ka00 (Oct 2, 2018)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Nicely done man! Which libraries are you using here? I really enjoy the balance and the consistent swells throughout that provide that realistic touch.



Thanks, Chris! Glad to hear it.

I used flautando and con sord patches from SCS, stacked with flautando patches from SStS+reverb.

For the melodic lines I used CSS violins and celli. The brass is SSB.

There’s some little bits all over from orchestral swarm and woodwind Evo patches, percussion from NI symphony series, MA2, MA3, EWQLO, Genesis choir.



ChrisSiuMusic said:


> The only critique I can really give is that I don't always have a sense of the structure of the piece, so my ear finds itself wanting more to grasp onto in order to realize where the track is going. I hope that makes sense. Great job!



Yeah that makes perfect sense. I’m still trying to educate myself on structure and have been feeling my way through things and that means, more often than not, I end of painting myself into corners I can’t gracefully get out of yet.


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## ka00 (Oct 2, 2018)

Kony said:


> Nice track! It felt like the brass were too forte when they first came in. Agree with Jeremy about the choir, but disagree about the portamento - I thought that gave it more emotion



Thanks, Kony! Yes, I’m more than a little self-conscious about the brass in this. Will definitely take your advice to do something different with them. I’ll revisit the choir parts too.


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## ka00 (Oct 2, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Your harmonic language and expression is fantastic.
> 
> I agree with above about the brass - it feels like it needs really nice warm ominously round sound rather than brassy forte imo (if you got ARK 2, try the brass in there!!).



Thanks so much, Simon! That's great to hear.

I will definitely revisit the brass and will follow your suggestion on the sound. Will dig into the brass in MA2 as you suggested. My go-to is always just Horns; so I need to start learning how to work with other brass.



SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I do also agree with what Alexander has posted below but I do think it's important to understand that you're definitely very talented and your moods, harmonic language and expression are fantastic in all your tracks - just think a bit more organisation and definition is needed.



It's very encouraging to hear coming from you, so thanks, Simon. I need to do some more track analysis to get a better handle on structure and on creating definitive melodies or "statements" (which is what I assume you mean).


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## ka00 (Oct 2, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Now my few cents. First thanks for sharing. Nice track and emotional approach. The breathing effect is cool and the ups and downs are great. Nicely done. The point is: You have no melody actually there which works handy with your progressions and often I can´t make out where you are going with your idea. You should at least make sure to give a bit of satisfaction and when you create tension in your harmonies that you should release the tension e.g. with a resolution. (there are millions of ways but one of the strongest would be a V-I) Otherwise your chord progressions become unfotunately random at times und too unpredictable to follow your idea. And thats the main concern I have here that you don´t trade on those things and the track becomes..slightly a question without giving the audience any answer at all.



Thanks, Alexander! I totally get what you're saying. I think I need some more experience before I'll able to apply this advice in a meaningful way. Believe me, I've been trying to get there. It's the point Mike Verta tries to hammer home time and time again. Finding that balance between offering the predictable and leading into unexpected territory and then back to the predictable is going to take some more time for me. Do you have any advice in that regard? I'm thinking that structural analysis of music I like is the main way that could work for me. I am a bit less in the JW camp though when listening for pleasure, and find I get a kick out of more ambiguity and surprise.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> So in the end I think it is not only a structural thing here but also the harmonic language. I like the harmony, so don´t get me wrong: It is not the harmony but it is the way that it is at times random and too unpredictable to connect. It is thin ice there. Do you have a Piano sketch of this track?



Every time I try to make a piano sketch, I end up making a finished piano track instead. I think my lack of proper musical training means I am using the feedback I get from the sound of the VI's to steer me toward discovering the song in response to the colours and timbres I am hearing. And of course, that's probably contributing to the issues you are pointing out.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> That part 1:28 with the loud brass is completely out of context..don´t do that..especially when you dont develop that thing there, it just is totally out of context of this piece.



Good point, thanks. I should likely lose it altogether, or figure something else out for that section.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> My tip: Mix familiar things with surprising things so that assures you don´t loose the connection with your audience. Also a orchestrational thing: Try to work with more colors..it is all like strings..from the beginning to the end..I mean..well..thats style and if you like that strings all the time, more power to you. But I like color contrast. What is with the woodwinds? They are..in your piece depressed and practically non existent. Why? Don´t you like them? :D Man..they can at least complement colors in the orchestra and better: You can hand over melodic lines for them. :D



I need more practise with woodwinds and brass. I didn't do more with woods because it's still a weak spot for me. But you're right, I need to work on that. Maybe during that brass section, I could have a woodwind melody. I'll give that a shot.



AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Of course everything I said here is just my opinion and just dismiss my post completely if you are happy with your track as it seems the others are too. And sure: Cool track, nothing wrong with it, I just give you some additional thoughts and options.



I'm open to all of the input I'm getting here. Thanks for all the detail and for never holding back on your criticisms. It's always helpful. And yes, I'd like to improve this piece so I will try to incorporate as much from the feedback into the finished piece as I can.

Thanks again.

Oh, and @SimonCharlesHanna I bought Orchestrating The Line 1 based on your recommendation. Looking forward to diving into it. If there are any other courses you recommend, I'm all ears!


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## Michelob (Oct 2, 2018)

Wonderful piece of music... It was like a walk in some strange woods. Personnally, I don't need more musical markers than the ones you offers. Indeed, this piece goes in a lot of directions, but this gives some impressionist touch that I love to hear in music. Well done...

Oh, yes, the lonely colour I dislike is the choir.


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## TheSigillite (Oct 2, 2018)

Great piece! What VI's did you use? I wish I had deeper feedback but greater musicians than I have provided excellent info.


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## ka00 (Oct 2, 2018)

TheSigillite said:


> Great piece! What VI's did you use? I wish I had deeper feedback but greater musicians than I have provided excellent info.



Thanks, Sigillite! Here's a list of the sample libraries I used.


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## ka00 (Oct 2, 2018)

Michelob said:


> Wonderful piece of music... It was like a walk in some strange woods. Personnally, I don't need more musical markers than the ones you offers. Indeed, this piece goes in a lot of directions, but this gives some impressionist touch that I love to hear in music. Well done...
> 
> Oh, yes, the lonely colour I dislike is the choir.



Thanks, Michel! That’s a nice image about the strange woods. Glad to get your sense of things on the ambiguity factor.

Three votes against the choir so far. I guess I was too ham-fisted with it.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Oct 2, 2018)

ka00 said:


> Thanks, Alexander! I totally get what you're saying. I think I need some more experience before I'll able to apply this advice in a meaningful way. Believe me, I've been trying to get there. It's the point Mike Verta tries to hammer home time and time again. Finding that balance between offering the predictable and leading into unexpected territory and then back to the predictable is going to take some more time for me. Do you have any advice in that regard? I'm thinking that structural analysis of music I like is the main way that could work for me. I am a bit less in the JW camp though when listening for pleasure, and find I get a kick out of more ambiguity and surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome. Honestly at first I was confused by Alain's method and process, but it turned into such a revelation. I can only recommend if you can afford it, to look at the other 2 Orchestrating the lines as well.


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## ka00 (Oct 3, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I can only recommend if you can afford it, to look at the other 2 Orchestrating the lines as well.



Will do. It would appear that I’m in this game to spend every last cent of my life savings. Why stop now?


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## ka00 (Oct 7, 2018)

Updated to the final version. Thanks to everyone for their wonderful feedback. It was incredibly helpful.

@AlexanderSchiborr I'm probably at the limit of my current musical chops with this version. I'll try to address more of your overall critiques with future pieces as they are more fundamental in nature.


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## Kony (Oct 7, 2018)

This is an excellent update in my humble opinion - really like this piece!


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## ka00 (Oct 7, 2018)

Kony said:


> This is an excellent update in my humble opinion - really like this piece!



Thanks, Kony! Glad to hear that. The constructive criticism I got after the first round was super helpful.


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## SolarCell (Nov 3, 2018)

Very nice sounding piece.

I just wish you would've added the new version so there was a clear comparison between the two...


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## ka00 (Nov 3, 2018)

SolarCell said:


> Very nice sounding piece.
> 
> I just wish you would've added the new version so there was a clear comparison between the two...



Thanks, SolarCell! Sure, I’ll dig up the first version this weekend and post it for comparison.


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## LamaRose (Nov 25, 2018)

I'll take issue with some of the criticisms posted. Firstly, some shit-events in life never fully resolve... the piece hits that place. But there's always hope, even though fleeting... thus the choir. And it would be easy to give reason and rhyme to the other instrumentation going on. Consider Charles Ive's "The unanswered question" as an example. Without some backstory, there are some bizarre moments in that piece.

The most important point is that you hit/wrote very strong moods here. You can learn harmony, orchestration, etc out the wazoo, but it doesn't mean anything unless you push an emotional button... and this is palpable in your composition.

And there's nothing wrong with playing to a sample/library's strength and letting said samples inspire the direction you go. People want to be inspired... and that includes composers. 

Anyway, this kicks-ass, and I'm sticking with my story! Very well done!


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## ka00 (Nov 26, 2018)

LamaRose said:


> I'll take issue with some of the criticisms posted. Firstly, some shit-events in life never fully resolve... the piece hits that place. But there's always hope, even though fleeting... thus the choir. And it would be easy to give reason and rhyme to the other instrumentation going on. Consider Charles Ive's "The unanswered question" as an example. Without some backstory, there are some bizarre moments in that piece.
> 
> The most important point is that you hit/wrote very strong moods here. You can learn harmony, orchestration, etc out the wazoo, but it doesn't mean anything unless you push an emotional button... and this is palpable in your composition.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much, @LamaRose! Your post is likely going to be the highlight of my week. I really appreciate your comments!


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