# Sample modeling, the best way for brass ensemble at unison ?



## Sam (Sep 20, 2010)

Hello everyone

Here is my work on a short demo (Universal logo's music composed by Jerry Goldsmith) to recreate, with solo only, a massive and epic brass sound :

http://samparyss.aurora-studio.fr/Unive ... fareV3.mp3

I used the sample modeling Trombones/Trumpets and Vsl Tuba.

(In the original version, there are also french horns, but I used only trombones in this demo)


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 20, 2010)

Sounds good to me! Would be nice to hear with the French Horns too...


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## chrisr (Sep 20, 2010)

yeah you pretty much nailed that. Very nice website and clips you have there too.

best,
Chris


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## Rob (Sep 20, 2010)

yeah Sam, that sounds good! I've always been a fan of samplemodeling...


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## Justus (Sep 20, 2010)

Very good!
Which strings do you use?


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## Mike Connelly (Sep 20, 2010)

Sounds great. That was one of the big things I was wondering about SM, how it handles section unison stuff.

Is there a "section" patch or do you just layer multiple individual ones on the same part? And if it's layering, is it OK with the same midi performance or does playing it in multiple passes make a big difference?


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## tabbu (Sep 20, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Sounds great. That was one of the big things I was wondering about SM, how it handles section unison stuff.
> 
> Is there a "section" patch or do you just layer multiple individual ones on the same part? And if it's layering, is it OK with the same midi performance or does playing it in multiple passes make a big difference?



I was about to ask those same things. I've heard that there are some phasing issues(?)


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## germancomponist (Sep 20, 2010)

Ha, this is very cooool! o=<


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## Sam (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks all !



noiseboyuk @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Sounds good to me! Would be nice to hear with the French Horns too...



Vsl Epic horns can easly handle that, but my purpose here is to create ensembe sound with solo only. I have to wait for the Sample modeling solo french horn  



Justus @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Which strings do you use?



LA Scoring Strings 



Mike Connelly @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Is there a "section" patch or do you just layer multiple individual ones on the same part? And if it's layering, is it OK with the same midi performance or does playing it in multiple passes make a big difference?



(There is a 3 trumpets section patch but I didn't use it)

You can use the same midi file (it works well) but to obtain a rich and living sound, each instrument must be programmed separately. As you already know, in a real orchestra, the perfection doesn't exist, so, to recreate this human touch, you have to add little imperfections by changing expression, vibrato, attack...in each midi channel. 
Phasing problem is solved by using different IR.
By this way you will be able to create your own ensembe sound : nothing sounds the same twice.

Here is an example of unison by using the same midi :
http://samparyss.aurora-studio.fr/1midi.mp3

with three different midi :
http://samparyss.aurora-studio.fr/3midi.mp3


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## Garlu (Sep 20, 2010)

Sam @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Thanks all !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, thanks for posting this! Nice job and nice sound. If I would have to say anything, I would point to the timpani... but I was really impressed by the overall sound and your programming skills. 

Any possibility to see the midi of the french horns? I´d love to see how you programmed them. 

Thanks again! and keep on the good work!

Best,

Garlu


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## NYC Composer (Sep 21, 2010)

Great job, and really heartening, as I've just bought the SM stuff.

Did you create all of your dynamics with expression and velocity, or did you use volume as well?


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## ErnestCholakis (Sep 21, 2010)

Hi Sam

I think the example you posted needs to be a little more larger than life. So here is an ambient steroid version  FORTI and SERTI ER, Tails, Bass Enhancement and TILT filters were used to add presence,fullness and additional ambience to your demo. 

Here is the link 
http://www.numericalsound.com/FORTI_SERTI_Demos/UniversalFanfare_FORTI_LM3.mp3 (http://www.numericalsound.com/FORTI_SER ... TI_LM3.mp3)


Ernest Cholakis 
Numerical Sound/ProAudioVault
www.numericalsound.com
www.proaudiovault.com


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## Raindog (Sep 22, 2010)

ErnestCholakis @ 22nd September 2010 said:


> Hi Sam
> 
> I think the example you posted needs to be a little more larger than life. So here is an ambient steroid version  FORTI and SERTI ER, Tails, Bass Enhancement and TILT filters were used to add presence,fullness and additional ambience to your demo.
> 
> ...



Not bad at all o=< 
regards
Raindog


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Sep 22, 2010)

*The best way to create a brass ensemble from solo instruments.*

Hi all,

we believe Sam is to be commended for bringing this topic to our attention, and for sharing his experience and results. We would add some theoretical and experimental observations concerning phasing, which is responsible for unrealistic, “synthy” ensemble sounds.

Causes of phasing.

1) Brass instruments are particularly prone to phasing when played unison. This occurs with real instruments as well as with samples.
2) Their waveform is characterized by a spiky pattern, whose period equals that of the fundamental.
3) This pattern implies that the fundamental and the overtones are basically in phase, so that most energy concentrates in the spikes.
4) When two waveforms of this kind add up, as in the case of two brass instruments playing unison, the result may vary from total cancellation to total summation of a substantial number of harmonics, depending on their phase relationship.
5) This phenomenon is much less evident with other instruments, like strings, where the harmonics are not in phase.


Remedy 1

1) Convolving the two sounds described above with different IRs will shift the phase of their overtones in a different manner.
2) As a result, most harmonics of one sound won’t be any more synchronous with the other.
3) Thus, complete cancellation or summation of a substantial number of harmonics won’t any longer occur.
4) Partial cancellation of harmonics (the phasing phenomenon) will still occur when the pitch of the two sounds is identical. 

Remedy 2

1) Avoiding identical pitch is the key to reduce phasing. In the real world this occurs because of natural pitch fluctuations due to different lip pressure, air flow etc.

Virtual instruments need to mimic this behaviour. This is best obtained by using separately recorded midi tracks, each one with its own nuances of timing, pitch, dynamics, vibrato etc. Breath and windcontrollers perform this task almost automatically. Keyboard players need to subtly act on controllers to obtain the same results.

The Samplemodeling approach

To create realistic ensembles from solo instruments, we provide several instruments of the same type (three Bb trumpets, two tenor trombones). Each instrument is equipped with a different IR, different pitch/dynamic modulators, different timing and vibrato response to the same midi input.
This provides acceptable results even if driving multiple instruments with the same midi flow.

No doubt, however, separately recorded midi track will yield superior results, as nicely demonstrated by Sam.

Best regards,

Giorgio & Peter


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## bryla (Sep 22, 2010)

Giorgio and Peter thanks for chiming in 

Just when I read this:
"To create realistic ensembles from solo instruments, we provide several instruments of the same type (three Bb trumpets, two tenor trombones)."

I thought:
why didn't you provide to alto-saxes, two tenors a.s.o just to be able to create that section sound?

Best
Thomas


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## Angel (Sep 22, 2010)

I started listening to it on my laptop and at once forgot I was listening to samples... good work!


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## mixolydian (Sep 22, 2010)

Awesome! >8o


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## Stefano Lucato (Sep 22, 2010)

The saxophones use a different technology and do not use convolution.
Saxophone phases are more spread than the trumpets and the trombone, so you can obtain a good ensemble acting only on Pitch and Equalization.
The saxophones are already equipped with a random that I recommend to emphasize by increasing RandExprs and DynPitch parameters, set also the MasterTune slightly different among the instruments. 
However, the best result, as widely discussed above, is obtained recording different midi tracks.
I also recommend to equalize differently different instruments.
Remember (for saxophones) to use only one instance of Kontakt each track, this is due to the particular SWT engine. (Do not load different instruments in the same Kontakt instance)

Best
Stefano


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## Hedgehog081 (Oct 22, 2010)

*Sam*, what IR did you use?
Sorry for my english :oops:


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## spikescott (Dec 8, 2010)

Giorgio & Peter & Sefano - Are we likely to see a SM French horn any time soon? - I'm not trying to pin you down to a date or anything - just want to know if it's being worked on or at least in the pipeline...?

Great work!


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## NYC Composer (Dec 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> On their forum they said that soprano sax and french horn are being worked on. Tuba is in an earlier stage of development.



Personally,I would find clarinet more useful than soprano sax.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 8, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> Personally,I would find clarinet more useful than soprano sax.



I would think that clarinet is probably used more often, but given their sampling methods I assume that since they've already done three saxes, doing the fourth is probably easier than tackling a different kind of instrument. Same goes for tuba versus other possibilities, based on the instruments they've already done, probably the easiest so might as well do it. Plus then they have complete sections instead of a random mix of different ones.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed Dec 08 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Dec 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Personally,I would find clarinet more useful than soprano sax.
> ...



I'm sure you're right, but leave me my dreams 

I had a huge theatrical( light musical comedy) project to do in the past months, and used the Chris Hein horns clarinet, which worked surprisingly well using the various articulations, along with the SM brass. I imagine BBB Lite will get some clarinet play now as well.


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## EvilDragon (Dec 8, 2010)

Stefano Lucato @ 23.9.2010 said:


> Remember (for saxophones) to use only one instance of Kontakt each track, this is due to the particular SWT engine. (Do not load different instruments in the same Kontakt instance)



Can you explain this in more detail, please? :?


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## tabulius (Dec 12, 2010)

Do those IRs include in library or are you using custom impulses? Also could a breath controller be a good buy for the trumpet and trombone?


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 13, 2010)

I'd say breath controller works great for any of the modeled instruments, whether it's woodwind, brass, or strings. I wish every library had options for breath/wind controller use as an alternative to modwheel dynamics.


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## ErnestCholakis (Jan 9, 2011)

Nicolas

Here is a link to a pdf with all the plugin screen shots settings used to get this sound. Logic 9, VSL Vienna Suite Convolution Plugins and 7 FORTI and SERTI impulses were used. 

http://www.numericalsound.com/RI_ShootOut/UniversalLogo_RemastingSetup.pdf

Ernest Cholakis
Numerical Sound/ProAudioVault
www.numericalsound.com
www.proaudiovault.com


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## jamwerks (Jan 9, 2011)

I can’t get any sound on that audio link! o=<


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## guayalex (Jan 9, 2011)

Wooooow!  :shock: =o 

I'd love you to tell us the reverb and eq settings (maybe screenshots) SAM. 
I'm impressed of how you'd achieve that fat ensemble sound with these ingredients...


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## guayalex (Jan 9, 2011)

jamwerks @ Sun Jan 09 said:


> I can’t get any sound on that audio link! o=<



I can't open them with Safari but with Firefox (on os x)


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## jamwerks (Jan 9, 2011)

Thanks, works on Firefox. And wow that’s a great sounding verb!! =o


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## Sam (Jan 10, 2011)

Hello everybody

I'm very busy right now but I'll take the time to answer all your questions soon


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## nicoroy123 (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation. I just saw that the VSL Convolution reverb is a requirements. Unfortunately, I don't have it. I only use Altiverb...

Any chance to see an Altiverb version eventually?


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## Hedgehog081 (Feb 27, 2011)

Raindog @ Mon Sep 20 said:


> Sorry to ask again. But do you use differently timed EARLY reflections and if yes how different do they have to be to avoid phasing.


also interested in the answer


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## ErnestCholakis (Mar 1, 2011)

Hedgehog081

Yes all the Early Reflections in both FORTI and SERTI have different Early Reflection (ER) patterns. All ER's are different with *no* two being the same in both libraries. The inter-channel delay patterns are very complex and are also unique for each ER.

The phasing refers primarily to the mixing of multiple ER's and reverb tails. To achieve this all the ER's and Tails must have no correlation (mathematical random like properties) - in effect have pure ambient properties with no dry signal bleeding through. Here is a link with a very dry snare example used to test or reveals the level of richness when comparing Numerical Sound, Lexicon and Altiverb RI's http://www.numericalsound.com/FORTI_SERTI_RI_Shootout.html


Ernest


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Apr 18, 2012)

guayalex @ Sun Jan 09 said:


> I'd love you to tell us the reverb and eq settings (maybe screenshots) SAM.



please, please! :roll:


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## Sam (Apr 20, 2012)

:wink:


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## NYC Composer (Apr 20, 2012)

That picture made me spit up my coffee.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Apr 20, 2012)

Gabriel Oliveira @ Wed Apr 18 said:


> guayalex @ Sun Jan 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd love you to tell us the reverb and eq settings (maybe screenshots) SAM.
> ...



and PAN also, please


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## Giorgio Tommasini (Apr 25, 2012)

Dear Friends,

how to use Samplemodeling Brass in a mix has recently been the subject of several threads, raising several interesting discussions and proposals: 

_Samplemodeling and The Mix!
Samplemodeling Brass in Orchestral Context
Colliery Band demo using only SM brass
Mike Verta's Sketches and More - Samplemodeling DEMO_

We posted Maciej Mulawa's interpretation of Mike Verta's composition for brass section in a dedicated thread (please scroll down) :

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... 40#3624640

not only to show what can be achieved:

http://www.sample-modeling.com/Demos/FH ... _Brass.mp3

but also to offer a deeper insight into the MIDI programming of each instrument:

http://www.sample-modeling.com/Demos/FH ... gBrass.mid

Please have a look. 

Best,

Giorgio & Peter


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