# Sample Modeling Sax Brothers vs. Audio Modeling SWAM Saxes



## cug (May 19, 2018)

I need a highly controllable and realistic VI sax. I use a TEC breath controller. There are some great sample based products out there but I was interested in the Sample Modeling products, which are in a closeout sale until the end of May and will then be discontinued. Apparently they will still be supported but no new sales due to their agreement with Audio Modeling. 

Anyone have any experience to share on the Audio Modeling products and company? The SWAM Saxophones seem reasonable at $250 for all 4 standard sizes (SATB). They sound great in the demos, as do the Sample Modeling Sax Bros. 

Thanks, 
Carlos Garza
LA area film composer


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## Ifness (May 19, 2018)

After researching the same two options that you mentioned, I ended up getting the SWAM saxophones (at the time they were still Sample Modeling instruments). When Audio Modeling separated from Sample Modeling and took the SWAM instruments with them, I registered on their website and had ready access to my SWAM saxophones purchase, eventually receiving a free update of the product when the update was completed. No complaints at all about Audio Modeling. Very professional company from my point of view. They even answered a question I had about the SWAM saxophones that I asked on a thread here on V I Control. I later bought their SWAM clarinet vst and have been equally pleased.

A friend of mine has the Saxophone Brothers vst from Sample Modeling, and he let me try them with my EWI-USB before I decided to get the SWAM saxophones. The Saxophone brothers sounded great (I got to try the Tenor and Alto), but I got the SWAM saxophones as I liked the idea of of also getting a soprano sax plugin. Additionally I liked that the SWAM instruments are independent/non-Kontakt vsts. In my opinion the SWAM alto and tenor sound a little better than the soprano, but they are all fantastic products. I've used my EWI-USB with them, as well as a TEC Breath Controller and midi keyboard (and foot pedal).

Here is an example of the Sample Modeling Mr. Sax T that I recorded with my EWI-USB while I was trying the vst out at my friend's place (backing track an Aebersold recording). The following example is of the SWAM soprano saxophone. I also used my EWI-USB to record it. The soprano sound is not exactly what I would want, but the vst is extremely responsive and fun to use.

Sample Modeling Mr. Sax T. and EWI-USB


Audio Modeling SWAM Soprano Saxophone and EWI-USB


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## cug (May 20, 2018)

Hey Justin, Thanks for that very thorough response. They both sound excellent. To my ears, the Sample Modeling Mr. T is amazingly realistic. This also confirms what I've known for a long time. I'm going to have to listen even more carefully to sax players to emulate their playing style from a keyboard. The long notes are easy. It's the short fills that really sell it. Nice playing! 

Do you have anything else you've recorded using the A, T or B SWAM, Audio Modeling VIs? I'm leaning in that direction because of the possibility of future updates and the extra soprano for just a little more money.


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## thereus (May 20, 2018)

I love them, but while the SWAM approach brings life to a note’s sustain like no mere sample library can, the lack of variation on attacks lets it down in terms of realism.


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## Ifness (May 20, 2018)

Hey Carlos, Thanks for the compliment. If you want to hear someone who really plays the hell out of some of the Sample Modeling instruments, including the saxes, check out Bernie Kenerson on Youtube. He's a master of the EWI. As for my own stuff using the SWAM saxophones, I'm just finishing up an all vst album in which I use them quite a lot (it's been a great learning experience. I just invested in high quality vsts the summer before last, when I finally had enough money to do so haha; and I've been learning as much as I can since on how to use DAWs, VSTs, mix, master, etc.) Here's the only track I've uploaded so far from the album. An alto sax solo starts around 01:55. I used a TEC Breath Controller and a midi keyboard.


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## cug (May 20, 2018)

Ifness said:


> check out Bernie Kenerson on Youtube



Thanks for the tip. I'll check out Bernie's clips.


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## lelepar (May 24, 2018)

thereus said:


> I love them, but while the SWAM approach brings life to a note’s sustain like no mere sample library can, the lack of variation on attacks lets it down in terms of realism.



Hi thereus,
what do you mean for "lack of variation on attacks"?
I just want to understand if we can help you with the settings or there is something that we should improve in the model of our instruments.

BTW: there is still some confusion around The Sax Brothers, SWAM, Audio Modeling and Samplemodeling. Please have a look at this FAQ, it explains everything: http://www.swamengine.com/support/kb/faq.php?id=36

Best,
Emanuele
_CTO
Audio Modeling_


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## Ah_dziz (May 24, 2018)

I owned the sax bros back before the swam engine was launched. I feel that the Swam implementation is better all around. I remember the developers saying that they had to do some odd programming as Kontakt wasn't designed to do what they were doing. Also there were extreme differences in sound between sampling rates and the occasional crash. The Swam instruments eliminate all of this and have a better GUI in my opinion.


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## lelepar (May 24, 2018)

BTW, have a look at this video


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## reddognoyz (May 24, 2018)

GO Swam with the BC. put the growl on a controller. Bob's your uncle.


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## reddognoyz (May 24, 2018)

lelepar said:


> BTW, have a look at this video




would be waaaaaaay better with the BC.


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## rdieters (May 24, 2018)

reddognoyz said:


> would be waaaaaaay better with the BC.



Here is another video with Audio Modeling Soprano Sax/BC.


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## Pantonal (May 24, 2018)

lelepar said:


> BTW, have a look at this video



Very nicely done. What's your dog's name?


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## thereus (May 24, 2018)

Firstly, I absolutely love the SWAM instruments. They are by far the closest thing we have to a future of greater realism. 

I am a wind player so I am coming from a particular angle, I suppose, but it seems to me that there are still many dimensions of the variations in the instruments still available to capture. The one that stands out for me most, particularly in the flute and sax models is the very start of every note. There are so many variations of tongueing that a flautist can use to change the character of the start of a note that are barely even ever taught mechanically, but become part of an almost unconscious practice of expression. The variations in breath pressure, lip positioning and shape, variation of tongue position. None of these can be easily expressed as a number between 0 and 127. It is the consistency of starting that sounds to my ears, least realistic.


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## The Darris (May 24, 2018)

I can't stand ALL of the VI saxophones out there. There isn't a single demo that can convince me to not spend a few extra bucks on hiring a sax player. I've been working on a concert piece for orchestra and Alto saxophone and I'm set to record the sax player and mix her with my orchestral mock-up. That being said, I've just been using ProjectSam's Swing series to cover my demo sax stuff and honestly, it doesn't sound great. Their saxophones, arguably, are designed for big band stuff and I understand that but still, they aren't the best to program. 

Looking at Audio Modelling and Sample Modelling's libraries, they seem best designed to be used with a breath controller, and even then, they don't cut it for me when it comes to "final product" results. The saxophone family has such an intricate and nuanced sound that sampling them is just ridiculously hard. Traditional sampling produces a result that is obvious it's a sax but you clearly can't get the expression of it thus it sounds synthetic. Modelling them basically sends us straight into uncanny valley. We hear something extremely expressive and musical but still, our ears tell us it's not a real sax. 

Sorry to rant on this thread. I've just been working very hard on this passion project written for solo sax and in all my research on available tools to create for that instrument, the only conclusion I can come up with where I get the results I want is to just hire a player. 

Best,

Chris


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## Polkasound (May 24, 2018)

Don't ask me much about orchestral instruments, but when it comes to a tenor sax, I've been playing along side them for 30 years. Sample libraries don't cut it. No matter how nice the samples themselves may sound, they just can't reproduce an exposed sax performance good enough for discerning ears. Trying to get a realistic sax performance from a sample library is like trying to withdraw money from an empty ATM machine.

The style of polkas and waltzes I play typically has a tenor sax playing the lead on top of the accordion, so it's exposed, but probably not quite as demanding of expression as a solo sax performance. Still, no sample library could come close to pulling off the job. When I got the Audio Modeling saxes last year, I was finally freed from the limitations of samples, and what a world of difference it's made. All of the sax and clarinet parts on my upcoming CD are Audio Modeling. I could have hired a real player, but for the first time ever, I didn't have to. Granted, I spent hours and hours editing those tracks, practically shaping every note, but I got results.

When Audio Modeling comes out with brass instruments, I'll be the first person in line with my credit card out.


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## muziksculp (May 24, 2018)

@lelepar 

That's a Great video showing Swam Saxophones in action ! 

I'm looking forward to your upcoming Swam Brass Instruments (Trumpet, Trombone, French Horn.. ) .

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Henu (May 24, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> Trying to get a realistic sax performance from a sample library is like trying to withdraw money from an empty ATM machine.



As someone who grew up surrounded by jazz and jazz musicians, I agree completely. The saxes seem to be pretty much the hardest possible instrument to realistically sample...since forever, hah!

However, in my opinion we are now at least in a situation where a section blended with the rest of the band is fooling almost anyone- it's the exposed solo stuff that still isn't quite there. While there is still no realistic enough solo sax library in the market, the SWAM stuff is prolly the closest you can get for now unless using pre- recorded phrases. We just need to accept that there are still things no sax library can do (yet), but the more the technology advances, the less there will be those. One by one those flaws are eliminated during the development cycles.

That being said, I really should dig that BC up and start learning to use it better.


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## Saxer (May 25, 2018)

Rob did a really good job here... very convincing to my ears!

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/prelude-to-a-kiss-chh.70595/


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## cug (May 26, 2018)

Thanks everyone! Great discussion. I'm also of a mind that I would prefer to hire a real sax player when the budget allows. But as media composer, there are always going to be those quick turn-around, low budget projects that need a sax. Not to mention mock-ups. And that's where the the modeling VIs add real value. 

I'd like to get more winds and brass VIs, especially for jazz arrangements. Most of the big name sample libraries are geared towards classical arrangements. I'm going to keep looking at the modeling instruments for the jazz nuances, especially clarinet bends and vibrato and all the crazy things trumpet players do. Not to mention all the brass mutes.


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## cug (Jun 2, 2018)

Well sometimes it pays to procrastinate. My decision just got a lot easier. The Sample Modeling Sax Brothers have been discontinued (as planned). And a pleasant surprise this morning as I went to buy the Audio Modeling Saxophones, they are on sale for the month of June. $200.


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## banes (Jun 2, 2018)

You won't regret it, it's one of my favorites VI


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