# Setting up a powerful networked slave machine with VE Pro for the first time-- but major cracks and pops; performances issues



## KeithRamsey (Feb 26, 2022)

Hello,

I've been using VE Pro on my main laptop for a few years, but just bought a PC to use as a slave machine for my samples. I'm relatively new to the dual computer setup world. After following the instructions in the VE Pro manual as best I can, I still can't seem to get past some major glitches and performances issues.

I set both the Mac and PC to static IP addresses. They're both connected to a D-Link gigabit switch.

The five-year-old mac has a 4 core processor and 16 GB of RAM. The new PC has a 12-core i7 processor and 64 GB of RAM.

As a test, I'm mocking up the beginning of JW's Superman march. I've done, for example, bars 8-18 of the brass section. By the time it gets to bar 14, the cracks and pops overwhelm the system until it's a hot mess.

I'm not sure where the problem is: whether it's a problem with my network, or perhaps with my multicore or other settings in Kontakt and VEP, or something else entirely.

I'm using Logic, which as I understand it, really only lets you use one Kontakt instance per VEP instance. (There are ways to try to get Logic to send to more ports (ie. Kontakt instances) per VEP instance, but in my experience don't work too well.)

Any tips on how to troubleshoot this thing?

thanks!


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## studioj (Feb 26, 2022)

I’ve had best results with loading 16 kontakts per VEP instance with Logic and setting each to a different midi channel. So not loading more than 16 midi channels per VEP instance so no need for multiple ports. Is your Mac or PC processor clipping during these spikes? What kind of drive are the samples streaming from? What is your VEP buffer set to? What is Logic buffet set to? What is kontakt disk streaming buffer set to? lots of variables!


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 26, 2022)

studioj said:


> I’ve had best results with loading 16 kontakts per VEP instance with Logic and setting each to a different midi channel. So not loading more than 16 midi channels per VEP instance so no need for multiple ports. Is your Mac or PC processor clipping during these spikes? What kind of drive are the samples streaming from? What is your VEP buffer set to? What is Logic buffet set to? What is kontakt disk streaming buffer set to? lots of variables!


Neither of the processors is clipping during the spikes (below 25% for the mac and 10% for the PC).

The samples are streaming from an internal M.2 drive (Samsung EVO Pro 2TB).

By VEP buffer do you mean the one set in Logic in the plug in window (choice of 1 through 4)? I've tried all, but they don't seem to have an effect. I didn't find a VEP buffer setting in VEP Server.

My Logic buffer is set to 512.

The kontakt disk streaming buffer I've been playing around with. I had it set to 60 kb for a while. I've put it to the far left and far right, but it doesn't seem help.


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## studioj (Feb 26, 2022)

Does the kontakt CPU light go red when the pops happen? What does the vep processor reading say? I would try setting up a single VEP instance with 16 separate kontakts with 1 instrument in each kontakt set to a different midi channel. Set your VEP processors to 10 maybe on the PC. Have you tried swapping out the Ethernet cable? is your internet hardwired too, or are you on wifi? Can you confirm that Vienna is seeing the hardwired IP address of the PC?


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 26, 2022)

The kontakt CPU meter in the top right of the kontakt window doesn't change colors (it doesn't go much past 10% for even the busiest instruments. This kind of makes me think it's a networking problem, because neither computer gives the indication that it's breaking a sweat.

I just tried the set up you described for my brass section on this part-- (it's similar to the setup I've been using; I only use one port, but I put 4 or 5 articulations in one kontakt instrument, on different channels.) But the problem persists.

I don't have any other ethernet cables to try with the setup, but the ones I have are new cat8 cables I just bought for the occasion. The internet is hardwired, but I have wifi enabled on my laptop.

In the VEP plug in window, it does show the correct IP address for the PC.

Here's a video of the issue:


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 26, 2022)

Here's a screen capture video from the VEP side:


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## studioj (Feb 26, 2022)

You can try bypassing the switch and directly connect the two systems via ethernet, and just make sure they are both on the same subnet (255.255.255.1) or something... but yes it sounds like a networking issue to me too. but if it doesn't change when you go to 4 buffers then it's not really a bandwidth thing I would think, its something else. Does it happen even with a single track of MIDI playback / instrument?


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## studioj (Feb 26, 2022)

In your video, you definitely have too many VEP instances loaded. you'll need to delete all of those to test properly I think, get a baseline going... leave a single instance open and connected. how does memory look on the PC? 64 GB not a lot for a full orchestra in my experience.


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## RonOrchComp (Feb 26, 2022)

The sound from the video are samples playing from your master, or your slave?

If the master, the first thing to try is raising the buffer of your sound card. 768. maybe 1024.

If the slave - I have actually seen this on occasion here. This when there is too much network traffic. So, if I play a large project and all is fine, and then I download something (either to the master or to the slave) from the internet, the slave will stutter a bit. Same holds true if I transfer data from one comp to the next during playback. The master however, remains fine.

The weird thing is that you are fine at first, but it gets worse over time.

I would ditch the wifi, and hardwire both computers to your router as studioj recommended. Although it may work for some people, I don't think that VEPro was set up to work via wi-fi.

If you are hardwired, and this still happens, and you aren't transferring data or downloading anything, there might be some service running in the background that is stealing network bandwith. Like a/v, or monitoring software, or some other software that you don't think is bloatware, but actually is.


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## studioj (Feb 26, 2022)

I was reading that both systems are hard wired. If not I would say that is most likely the issue! VEP is def not capable over wifi and all systems need to be hardwired.


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## RonOrchComp (Feb 26, 2022)

studioj said:


> I was reading that both systems are hard wired.



Funny, I read it the other way 

_I've been using VE Pro on my main laptop for a few years

I have wifi enabled on my laptop._


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## JohnG (Feb 26, 2022)

Certainly if you’re trying to use a wireless connection it’s hopeless, but since you mentioned a Cat8 cable that doesn’t sound too likely.

Have you gone through the entire VE Pro manual to make sure you have the correct ports open on the PC?


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 27, 2022)

(good morning!)


The systems are hardwired— the computers are connected via ethernet.


I was referring to Mac laptop’s wifi on/off switch (in the top right of the menu bar) which maybe is irrelevant, I don’t know. Normally, I've left my laptop's wifi enabled (even though it's in the second place after ethernet in the Network System Preferences), rather than turn it off when I'm at home and connected to ethernet. But yeah, for this test, I did turn off the Mac's wifi card just to make sure and the problem continued.

I had a thought that it might be the USB hub I was using. (I have a Axagon USB 3.0 hub and an Axagon 1000 Mbps ethernet to USB adapter), but I tried connecting my ethernet adapter to the mac directly to no avail.


——


@RonOrchComp


The samples are playing from the PC slave. If there’s something slowing down the network, how can I investigate that?


——


@stuioj


As far as the number of instances in VEP— this is how I did it with my one-computer setup, so I thought it would be OK. Currently my template on the PC is using about 18-20 GB of RAM, according to the Task Manager.

A little background:

Before I had the PC— with my one-computer setup— the 16 GB RAM was the major limitation. I would squeeze a small orchestra out of it with VEP by adjusting the preload buffer size in Kontakt down to 12 Kb. I was using a Samsung T5 USB 3.2 drive (USB-C). Then I was really conservative with how many articulations I would load, and only load them when I really needed them, often disabling and bouncing etc. I also would adjust the Max number of voices on each instrument down much lower than the default. E.g. a flute part in Cinesamples has 512 maximum voices, but I would bring it down to maybe 100 and experiment.

——-
I’ll try to delete some instances in VE Pro and see what happens.


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 27, 2022)

Right now I have the two machines directly connected to each other by Ethernet (ie not connected to the internet), and I’m building up the template with fewer instances of VEP.


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 27, 2022)

JohnG said:


> Have you gone through the entire VE Pro manual to make sure you have the correct ports open on the PC?



yes, I followed the instructions regarding opening up the TCP and UDP ports in the Windows Firewall.


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## Manaberry (Feb 27, 2022)

Even if you don't have issues with CPU usage, I would suggest disabling hyperthreading on the PC.
It helped a lot for stability in my case. (better headroom for VEP instance to manage random usage spike)


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## Karmand (Feb 27, 2022)

I've had some clicks/glitches like that and it has been VEP CPU and the amount of voices streaming at the same time which leads me to think is CPU and network bottle necks. So I keep investigating what traffic and how much traffic is on at the same time - I also bump up the sample voices a bit as example when runs and rapid notes in a row happen or I've seen it on normal passages; for some reason it is using up all the voices or there are too many voices at once. I am not sure why it comes and goes for me - so I keep an eye on voices, buffer, threads and traffic.

Also noting I don't have a prob with Kontakt having 16 in one instance. I don't use multi-Ports in one instance, just 16 MIDI Channels - and I have experimented with Multi-Instrument Kontakt and it works, I just don't do it anymore. I like one per instrument.

MacRack 48GB 8 Core Big Sur - Logic - No VEP server 
VEP Server #1 i9 10 core 64GB Big Sur 2 NVME internal Drives
VEP Server#2 12 core 64GB Catalina 3 NVME internal drives on card.

Now, not to muck up the issues; since VEP's end of year update there are a lot of crashes on VEP... still investigating what plugins and or samples VEP is having troubles with.


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 27, 2022)

Is there any chance the router could have an effect on the performance? The switch I bought is brand new, but the router is a loaner from my internet company, and I'm pretty sure it's quite old, maybe 8 years or more.

I'll keep messing with it. Like I said, I'm pretty new to the two-computer setup, so I imagine it'll take some time to get all the kinks worked out. Thanks all for the kind help and suggestions. I'll post more later on if I have more questions!


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## studioj (Feb 27, 2022)

Did you get it working with the direct connection between systems? It's not the simplest thing to do... basically you need to create a separate network / subnet for the server to communicate with your host. I've done it a few times, but often required restarts or a few tries etc. Does it work ok if you just have a single instance open (not even other deactivated/unconnected instances, like really a super clean VEP on the PC with a single instance) and a single instrument running? Best way to test is to simplify your setup as much as possible and then see at what point it breaks down. same on the Logic side, only load ONE vep plugin in a new session and see if it works like that. I use a very old Netgear switch - it's unlikely to be the problem but its possible I guess!


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 28, 2022)

studioj said:


> Did you get it working with the direct connection between systems? It's not the simplest thing to do... basically you need to create a separate network / subnet for the server to communicate with your host. I've done it a few times, but often required restarts or a few tries etc. Does it work ok if you just have a single instance open (not even other deactivated/unconnected instances, like really a super clean VEP on the PC with a single instance) and a single instrument running? Best way to test is to simplify your setup as much as possible and then see at what point it breaks down. same on the Logic side, only load ONE vep plugin in a new session and see if it works like that. I use a very old Netgear switch - it's unlikely to be the problem but its possible I guess!


@studioj 

Yes, I did get it working with the direct connection, but I have the same problem. 

This morning I tried what you suggested. First I connected the PC directly to the mac via ethernet (no switch.) It did seem to work OK, but I'm not super knowledgeable about networking. All I know is Logic's VEP instance was able to see and connect to the PC's VEP server. When I had set up the static IP, I was following a youtube tutorial that said to put in the IP addresses (I used 192.168.0.11 for the mac and 192.168.0.14 for the PC-- the same as comes up with DHCP), and use the same subnet mask and gateway ID for both. When I connected directly, I didn't change any of these settings and it seemed to connect OK.

To test it, I built up a new logic project (not from a template, from scratch) and a new VE Server Project (also from scratch.) Here's two videos that demonstrate the issue well.

1. In the first video, you can see that the strings play fine by themselves. The brass and low WW play fine. But when you put them together, it can't handle it.

2. In the second video, I show the view of the PC's task manager playing all the tracks (both the CPU and the Ethernet). I don't know what to look for here exactly-- does the ethernet stuff look normal? 

Incidentally, I did change the BIOS to disable hyper-threading as @Manaberry suggested, for what that's worth.

As for reducing the VEP instances-- that's my next experiment. The last time I looked into multiple ports in Logic/VEP, a few years ago, it seemed kind of sketchy (it was the method where you add a CC99 event in the Environment, and it didn't work well in my initial experiments), and even now AU3 is still in Beta from VEP's perspective. But I'll try setting it up with AU3 and putting all the brass on one instance, all the strings on one instance, etc, and see how it goes! 

Thanks!


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## KeithRamsey (Feb 28, 2022)

I think I've got it resolved! It seems the problem was too many VEP instances, like you suggested, @studioj. Switching to AU3 and bringing all the sections into their own instance works much better.

Thanks all! By the way, here's a good article I found on setting up AU3 in Logic, in case anybody's interested: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=143416


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## studioj (Feb 28, 2022)

Great! Technically the AU3 version is still beta so I’m not sure how reliable it is. When using Logic I use the au2 version and just limit each instance to 16 midi channels, use lots of key switching instruments to keep track count down, and tend to divide instances by library. And keep smaller ram footprint libraries locally in Logic. But in general I prefer working with VEP with other daws like Pro Tools or Studio One.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 2, 2022)

KeithRamsey said:


> I think I've got it resolved! It seems the problem was too many VEP instances, like you suggested, @studioj. Switching to AU3 and bringing all the sections into their own instance works much better.
> 
> Thanks all! By the way, here's a good article I found on setting up AU3 in Logic, in case anybody's interested: https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=143416


Running it in Logic is a PITA. Also, tempo sync'd instruments don't work.


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## KeithRamsey (Mar 4, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Running it in Logic is a PITA. Also, tempo sync'd instruments don't work.


Yeah, truth be told I started running into problems with AU3 as well. I'm back to AU2 and trying some different approaches.


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## samtrino (Mar 4, 2022)

You can try increasing the link’s MTU for better Ethernet throughout - this allows the PC to send more data per frame (at the cost of negligible added latency):

You do this by increasing all your network adaptors’ MTUs to 9000 bytes (also known as Jumbo frames) - this should be done on your Mac and PC (and corresponding switch ports if used).

Note: you can choose any value between 1500 and 9000 as long as your consistent across devices.


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## KeithRamsey (Mar 4, 2022)

samtrino said:


> You can try increasing the link’s MTU for better Ethernet throughout - this allows the PC to send more data per frame (at the cost of negligible added latency):
> 
> You do this by increasing all your network adaptors’ MTUs to 9000 bytes (also known as Jumbo frames) - this should be done on your Mac and PC (and corresponding switch ports if used).
> 
> Note: you can choose any value between 1500 and 9000 as long as your consistent across devices



Thanks, I’ll give that a try!


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## KeithRamsey (Mar 7, 2022)

samtrino said:


> You can try increasing the link’s MTU for better Ethernet throughout - this allows the PC to send more data per frame (at the cost of negligible added latency):
> 
> You do this by increasing all your network adaptors’ MTUs to 9000 bytes (also known as Jumbo frames) - this should be done on your Mac and PC (and corresponding switch ports if used).
> 
> Note: you can choose any value between 1500 and 9000 as long as your consistent across devices.


The mac and PC aren't letting me set the MTU higher than 1500, it seems. Both are telling me the maximum it can be set to is 1500. Oh well.


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## frankensteiner (Nov 20, 2022)

Hi all

I have pretty much the same setup as you Keith and can relate to all your descriptions 1 to 1. 
Exactly the same for me.

I've been looking for the reason for these errors for ages now.

When I watch what's going on in the task manager on my PC, I also see that both the CPU usage and the network usage are barely worth mentioning.
The PC seems to stay well below load limit and yet I have these failures as you describe.
I have also tried various settings in Kontakt and VEP.
In Kontakt I can't avoid setting the multiprocessor usage to at least 4, because I would like to play instruments like Cinematic Studio Brass Ensemble (a very CPU hungry Instrument) and even my quite fast PC can't do that with only one processor (I tried it).

Since I use one instance per instrument in my orchestra setup, I set the threads per instance to 1 thread in VEP, but also tested how it is with 4 per instance.

I will continue to test and hereby like to join in the search for a solution 

Or have you found a solution meanwhile?

cheers

Frank


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## KeithRamsey (Nov 21, 2022)

Hi Frank,

After lots of tinkering, I finally found some settings that seem to be working.

On Logic I used VEP Pro's AU3 plugin. What's been working for me is having 5 instances of VEP, one for each section of the orchestra. WW, Brass, Perc, Hp & Keys, and Strings.

Within that, each instrument has one or two instances of Kontakt, with each instrument on its own port. Each articulation is then on a separate MIDI channel. So I have a Kontakt instance of flute 1 long's on port 1, then flute 1 short's on another instance of Kontakt, also assigned to port 1, but with different midi channels. (I found it worked better to put them on separate Kontakt instances.) Flute 2 would be on port 2, oboe 1 on port 5 or whatever, and so forth.

On the PC: in Kontakt, my multiprocessor support is set to 12 cores. In VEP, multiprocessing is set to 2 threads (per instance). The connection settings are set to 48 midi ports, and 32 audio ins and outs.

In Logic, the Processing Threads are set to automatic, and the Process Buffer Range is set to Medium (I found that worked better than Large, contrary to most advice I found). Multi-threading is set to Playback tracks.

Another big thing I did was max out the RAM on the PC, and then crank the "Override Instrument's preload size" setting all the way to the right to 240.00 kB.

But in the whole process, the thing which seemed to help the most was that I no longer do my reverb on the mac. I bought seventh heaven reverb, and run that on the PC. Only a single stereo return comes back from the PC per each VEP instance. All the other mixing of a section is done on the PC as part of the template. I found that adding more stereo returns (e.g., 3-4, 5-6, etc) from the PC was hurting the performance the most. Which might bother some users, but for me it wasn't a problem to just keep it as one stereo return (per section).

hope that's helpful!

Keith


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