# Feedback on first "serious" virtual orchestration



## Vebjörn (Feb 8, 2021)

Hi Everyone,

I recently finished my first serious virtual orchestration. I have worked with MIDI before, but this is my first attempt at making a mockup of a (full) piece that I wrote for live orchestra. There's a lot that I think can be improved, but after dealing with many bugs and losing a lot of work/time because of them, I feel like I can live with the result. Would be thrilled to hear any feedback and comments on how I could improve the production as I plan on doing more of these and will likely revisit this VO in the future.



Thank you very much.

WW: VSL Special 1 +
Brass: Sample modelling
Harp/Perc/Timp: VSL Special 1 +
Strings: CSS often layered with VSL special 1+ solo


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## Tag (Feb 15, 2021)

Hi! The beginning of the piece is nice and it keeps going on that way. I really like how dynmic it is and how it ... well, at least to me: somehow absolutely does not sound like the most orchestral pieces these days. So kudos for that already, love it!

Some points which I noticed: somehow the file compression sounds quite low to me. Is this SoundCloud these days? It sounds almost dull to me, what's a shame, since I guess many details are gone! If it's not SoundCloud (did not upload things there for a long time), I would suggest you to render such a piece in the best quality before uploading it anywhere. Most streaming services compress audio anyway down.

Overall nice piece. Keep it on! (=

Oh and: also welcome to the forum, hehe.


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## Vebjörn (Feb 16, 2021)

Tag said:


> Hi! The beginning of the piece is nice and it keeps going on that way. I really like how dynmic it is and how it ... well, at least to me: somehow absolutely does not sound like the most orchestral pieces these days. So kudos for that already, love it!
> 
> Some points which I noticed: somehow the file compression sounds quite low to me. Is this SoundCloud these days? It sounds almost dull to me, what's a shame, since I guess many details are gone! If it's not SoundCloud (did not upload things there for a long time), I would suggest you to render such a piece in the best quality before uploading it anywhere. Most streaming services compress audio anyway down.
> 
> ...


Hi,

Thank you so much for your feedback. I think soundcloud does compress, but I am not sure to what extent. I only put a brickwall limiter at -.3 db on my stereo out and I noticed that it activated in a few climactic moments. I am somewhat concerned about the reverb, it seems like there is a bit too much. Also, it was my first time using EW Spaces II (for ERs and hall), so I am not sure if my setup is really ideal. 

Thanks again


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## Tag (Feb 16, 2021)

Vebjörn said:


> I think soundcloud does compress, but I am not sure to what extent. I only put a brickwall limiter at -.3 db on my stereo out


I was talking about the file compression, not the audio compression! Your piece has for sure a very nice amount of dynamic! :D

So I meant the overall sound timbre. It sounded a little bit "dull" or ... well ... bad file-compressed. Like, don't know ... maybe like "MP3 with 128 kbit/s" or so.




Vebjörn said:


> I am somewhat concerned about the reverb, it seems like there is a bit too much.


Maybe it's even that, not 100% sure. I am not sure what EW Spaces II could change in the timbre of a piece. At least the "positioning" and the "depth" of the reverb did not sound wrong to me in the first listening. But after you wrote it ... either I am biased now by your comment, or you are right, hehe: maybe the instruments could be a tiiiny bit more in the "front". But that's really just a tiny detail, I'd say. I somehow guess that the piece already works well like it is; except this little "dull-timbre" feel I somehow have (most probably due to the SoundCloud file-compression).


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## Gerald (Feb 16, 2021)

Excellent work! I love it


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## Dave Connor (Feb 16, 2021)

Great! Loved it!


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## Vebjörn (Feb 17, 2021)

Gerald said:


> Excellent work! I love it


thanks


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## Vebjörn (Feb 17, 2021)

Tag said:


> I was talking about the file compression, not the audio compression! Your piece has for sure a very nice amount of dynamic! :D
> 
> So I meant the overall sound timbre. It sounded a little bit "dull" or ... well ... bad file-compressed. Like, don't know ... maybe like "MP3 with 128 kbit/s" or so.
> 
> ...


ah, the file is wav 48 khz 24 bit, so I am guess that it is because of soundcloud (hopefully)

Thanks again!


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## Vebjörn (Feb 17, 2021)

Dave Connor said:


> Great! Loved it!


thanks


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## BlackDorito (Feb 19, 2021)

Very intriguing piece with hints of several modern styles - well done. My thought is also that the overall sound is a little bit dull/muffled, but I think that actually might help contribute to the impression that the instruments are on a large stage and the mics are set back a bit. As a location recorder I find the sound realistic in that sense, and I am therefore impressed with EW Spaces, which I've heard of but never used. Since we are all VI nerds, I notice you used VSL quite a bit, and it would be an interesting exercise to compare this to a rendition where the instruments went thru the VSL MIR instead, perhaps using some large hall.


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## Vebjörn (Mar 8, 2021)

BlackDorito said:


> Very intriguing piece with hints of several modern styles - well done. My thought is also that the overall sound is a little bit dull/muffled, but I think that actually might help contribute to the impression that the instruments are on a large stage and the mics are set back a bit. As a location recorder I find the sound realistic in that sense, and I am therefore impressed with EW Spaces, which I've heard of but never used. Since we are all VI nerds, I notice you used VSL quite a bit, and it would be an interesting exercise to compare this to a rendition where the instruments went thru the VSL MIR instead, perhaps using some large hall.


Thanks for the feedback. Would love to compare with MIR, but unfortunately I can't afford it at the moment.


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## Stringtree (Mar 8, 2021)

The piece is terrific! You have a lot of great ideas and orchestral flair. 

It sounds hard-tubular, in that the reverb just doesn't sound right for what's supposed to be playing in the hall. It doesn't sound warm. I love the piece, but I think the IR is giving you a weird EQ curve. 

Maybe whack another reverb onto the master bus and get rid of the EW Spaces? You doubtless have a lot of talent, and this is just a mixing thing.


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## Vebjörn (Mar 13, 2021)

Stringtree said:


> The piece is terrific! You have a lot of great ideas and orchestral flair.
> 
> It sounds hard-tubular, in that the reverb just doesn't sound right for what's supposed to be playing in the hall. It doesn't sound warm. I love the piece, but I think the IR is giving you a weird EQ curve.
> 
> Maybe whack another reverb onto the master bus and get rid of the EW Spaces? You doubtless have a lot of talent, and this is just a mixing thing.


Thank you. I will try to modify the reverb. I put it a bit of a half-assed way because im not sure how to beat use spaces or reverb in general (no matter how much I research on it...).

The problem is that it is such a pain to export this piece because CSS bugs out and sometimes the notes hang. So I need to export it once, see where the notes hangs, restart Cubase and VEPro and export from just before where the notes hang, rinse and repeat, and finally cut cut up the files and put all he good sections together. I have no idea why css does this, I have gone over all the midi and nothing points to a problem (it usually only happens when I export and not during playback).


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## JPQ (Mar 14, 2021)

really nice. btw makes me think how long takes get these instruments same virtual hall and css and vsl strings to sync.


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## Vebjörn (Mar 15, 2021)

JPQ said:


> really nice. btw makes me think how long takes get these instruments same virtual hall and css and vsl strings to sync.


Do you mean to get them to playback together because of the different delays CSSchas? If so, it was annoying because I performed vsl and the others directly into Cubase, but I couldn’t do that with most of the CSS because of the delays. I had to use the logical editor to displace the start position of the css notes based on their velocity. I don’t really enjoy this method because I prefer to perform the individual lines.


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## TintoL (Mar 15, 2021)

wao, you are saying this is your first mockup? Hats off.....

Your composition has such smart orchestration, and such lovely contrast of instrumentation and music colors... I really like the style.... Very impressive. I take that it's your first mockup, but never your first composition, it's very solid.

Like others say, I do find the room kind of muted, not sure how to express it. It sounds like a digital room I guess. IMHO, I don't think it has nothing to do with anything you did wrong, it could very well be the output of dry instruments in a simulated room using reverb etc.... I wonder how will this piece sound using wet libraries....

Quite an amazing job....


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## Vebjörn (Mar 15, 2021)

TintoL said:


> wao, you are saying this is your first mockup? Hats off.....
> 
> Your composition has such smart orchestration, and such lovely contrast of instrumentation and music colors... I really like the style.... Very impressive. I take that it's your first mockup, but never your first composition, it's very solid.
> 
> ...


Hi and thank yo very muchu. I said it was my first serious mock up and the first mock-up that I’ve done of one of my orchestral compositions (I think I said that). I have used VO for some short animation and video games projects and I’ve done mockups of 8 bar segments of orchestral pieces but nothing ever on this scale.

Thanks again, I hope to fix the room sound someday.


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## SGordB (Mar 15, 2021)

Vebjörn said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Would love to compare with MIR, but unfortunately I can't afford it at the moment.


Very impressive (musically and as a mockup). About MIR: 30-day demo of it and any or all of its libraries is free. That's how I got hooked on it a year ago and finally bought it (the whole damned thing -- no regrets) a year later. But, yes, it is wicked expensive. But so rewarding to use. Since buying it a few months ago, I've put all of my other ambience toys aside. On a related note: the somewhat cool, distant ambience of this mockup sounds about right to me for the style and mood of the piece, but a product like MIR will really let you fall down the rabbit hole of dressing your mockup up in most every possible flattering manner of clothing. One of the many things I like about MIR is that it likely will sound good in any MIR space -- just different, and usually distinctly so. Your current Spaces ambience reminds me most of a MIR soundstage, like Synchron. Would be very interesting to hear it in one of the more "live" big concert halls, like Sage Gateshead Hall One or the main Vienna concert hall.


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## Vebjörn (Mar 15, 2021)

SGordB said:


> Very impressive (musically and as a mockup). About MIR: 30-day demo of it and any or all of its libraries is free. That's how I got hooked on it a year ago and finally bought it (the whole damned thing -- no regrets) a year later. But, yes, it is wicked expensive. But so rewarding to use. Since buying it a few months ago, I've put all of my other ambience toys aside. On a related note: the somewhat cool, distant ambience of this mockup sounds about right to me for the style and mood of the piece, but a product like MIR will really let you fall down the rabbit hole of dressing your mockup up in most every possible flattering manner of clothing. One of the many things I like about MIR is that it likely will sound good in any MIR space -- just different, and usually distinctly so. Your current Spaces ambience reminds me most of a MIR soundstage, like Synchron. Would be very interesting to hear it in one of the more "live" big concert halls, like Sage Gateshead Hall One or the main Vienna concert hall.


Ah, well I’m using the synchron edition of the vsl special edition 1, so maybe that’s why?
Thanks for the comments!


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## JPQ (Mar 18, 2021)

Vebjörn said:


> Do you mean to get them to playback together because of the different delays CSSchas? If so, it was annoying because I performed vsl and the others directly into Cubase, but I couldn’t do that with most of the CSS because of the delays. I had to use the logical editor to displace the start position of the css notes based on their velocity. I don’t really enjoy this method because I prefer to perform the individual lines.


yes i meaned. and sounds awful to me. i really want found easy nice tools for me. and this interface looks nice but this thing scares me.


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## Vebjörn (Mar 18, 2021)

JPQ said:


> yes i meaned. and sounds awful to me. i really want found easy nice tools for me. and this interface looks nice but this thing scares me.


I am not sure what you mean. What sounds awful for you and what do you mean by tools? Are you trying to find "easy to use" sample libraries?


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## JPQ (Mar 21, 2021)

Vebjörn said:


> I am not sure what you mean. What sounds awful for you and what do you mean by tools? Are you trying to find "easy to use" sample libraries?


Using this kind library with others sound awful when need be get them in sync. i mean workflow sounds awful. and try found easy use libraries what are easily controlled with Dorico. i ,mean not too complex keyswitch side.


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## GNP (Mar 21, 2021)

As Hans Zimmer (yeah yeah I know) said, "This is a recording". 

If I had to write for a live orchestra, I can't cheat in orchestration.

But if it wasn't for a live orchestra, well. Hell. Time to make use of anything that sounds great.


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## Vebjörn (Mar 22, 2021)

GNP said:


> As Hans Zimmer (yeah yeah I know) said, "This is a recording".
> 
> If I had to write for a live orchestra, I can't cheat in orchestration.
> 
> But if it wasn't for a live orchestra, well. Hell. Time to make use of anything that sounds great.


Sorry, I am not sure what this is in response to? The simualtion is of a piece written and recorded with live orchestra. I agree with you, but I wanted to see how well I could reproduce it with the real orchestra.


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## GNP (Mar 22, 2021)

Vebjörn said:


> Sorry, I am not sure what this is in response to? The simualtion is of a piece written and recorded with live orchestra. I agree with you, but I wanted to see how well I could reproduce it with the real orchestra.


Yeah I was talking in terms of mockups. But even with live players, you could also cheat and record different instruments separately, and then you have fuller control over the mix later on.


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