# More on big band mockups



## Rob (Jan 27, 2012)

To continue the thread on what is missing in big band libraries, today I found some time to do a little more articulated example of how I mix libraries to do "previews" of the scores that I successively send to real musicians... it's a bit non sense as it's not a real composition, just a couple of ideas dropped down. For some reasons I couldn't use SM trumpet, which I love, and I had to make do with chris hein horns bundled with kontakt, plus wivi brass and SM alto and tenor saxes... drums is superior 2, funk masters set and bass is larry seyer upright.

www.robertosoggetti.com/BB.mp3


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## José Herring (Jan 27, 2012)

Dude. Some killer writing. 

The sax section stuff sounds great. The bundled trumpet, I've tried to use before and couldn't get it to work. Sounds pretty synthy imo. Not sure if the full CH trumpet section is any better. Couldn't really tell from the demos.

I think you're right about mixing libraries.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 27, 2012)

Rob some really cool writing. I love the general lyricism in your passage execution. Would love to hear this with a real ensemble because although the flow is very cool for a mockup, brass appears to be very hard to pull off in the realism department. The part where the bass goes crazy and the sax takes off is exquisite. Anyway, for handing your final players a mockup idea of what the final piece might sound like, this works great.


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## rayinstirling (Jan 27, 2012)

There are certain people on this forum who produce recordings like this where I listen and quite frankly don't care whether the instruments are virtual or real because the result is just so musical.

Thanks yet again for sharing this with us Roberto.

Ray


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Fri Jan 27 said:


> Dude. Some killer writing.
> 
> The sax section stuff sounds great. The bundled trumpet, I've tried to use before and couldn't get it to work. Sounds pretty synthy imo. Not sure if the full CH trumpet section is any better. Couldn't really tell from the demos.
> 
> I think you're right about mixing libraries.



I agree with every word!


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## trumpoz (Jan 27, 2012)

Wow. Killer writing Rob. 

The saxes sound awesome - particularly the solo. Was that on keyboard or did you use an EWI or something?

The brass had the brightness and sparkle that they need in the mid to upper register but in the lower register they are too bright. The lower dynaics are not quite right for the brass either. Do you have BBB? IMHO it would be ideal for the trumpet 2 or 4 parts as it would warm the sound up, particularly at lower dynamics. 

Mixing libraries is definately the way to go - essentially a big band is 4 sections made up of solo instruments. The wider range of (appropriate) timbres you can get, the more realistic it will sound.


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## lux (Jan 27, 2012)

so nice. Thanks for sharing it Roberto.

Luca


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## genyus (Jan 27, 2012)

OMG, will you dudes calm down and get a life?! Killer writing?! One minute of a very standard, modern, bluff "jazz" work out, with the usual suspects substitute chords and assorted noodling ( sorry Frank ) and it's suddenly killer writing! No. Listen to yourselves before you commit your thoughts to the ether. Killer writing is: Duke Ellington; Miles Davis; Charles Mingus; that guy Gershwin; Francis Zappa! Killer writing is: Claude Debussy; Igor Stravinsky; Bela Bartok; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart; Lud Van Beethoven. Killer writing is The Beatles; The Beachboys; Abba; The Kinks. Killer writing is: Korngold, Herrmann, Goldsmith, Barry,Williams (end of the line, sorry chaps, but I could go on )....blah, blah, BLAH.It's NOT one minute of a sample demo. Shall I continue with the killer writing examples?!

On a positive, the sax solo is realistic (but, honestly, how many times have we heard that flashy modal stuff?!), the brass is adequate, but the sax ensemble is superior. 

I'm sorry guys, I'm very confused by the function of this section of the forum, and I know that I'm the new kid on the block, so kill me. There are a lot of people presenting stuff on here, with the purpose of discussing sample libraries and not the merits of the actual work. It's tedious, it's puzzling; it's b-o-r-i-n-g. And then you get people doing mockups of Thomas Newman, or Holst, or Bach . What's that about?! _It ain't your composition._ Why are are you doing this ?!!! And then you've got some kid's experiences with Taiko drums, which is barely writing at all, because he clearly held one finger down on his keybored and quite possibly failed to compose a single note or rhythmic part of his "composition". :-s, and god knows what else

Rob is clearly a good musician, and has done a fine job a demoing sample libraries, but please, dudes: get real. This ain't "killer writing" for lord's sake. It's a very good one minute sample demo, and anyone who thinks it's more than that is divorced from the reality of what "killer writing" really is. Get a perspective here. Would the guys I mentioned ever post on a forum, had there been an internet? Ask yourselves that.

Oh, and anyone accusing me of jealously would be absolutely on the money. I'M JEALOUS. Of Ellington, Mingus,Davis,that guy, Gershwin; Debussy,Stravinsky, Bartok, Mozart, Beethoven....shall I go on? Get some ears, dudes.

Am I going to get banned for having an HONEST opinion, rather than all this crazy, weird ear dysfunction? I hope not. There should be room for reasonable and dissenting voices in a democracy, so, shoot me down, but please don't silence me. I'll defend myself, no problem. Honestly, there are some crayzee, mixed up dudes on this forum.

Sorry to dump this on yus'all, but this post's reactions really was the limit. Seriously, tone it down with the killer writing. :roll:

Still, one good thing. Rob's going to get a lot of posts now.....


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## RiffWraith (Jan 27, 2012)

*genyus* > was that really necessary?



genyus @ Sat Jan 28 said:


> Am I going to get banned for having an HONEST opinion, rather than all this crazy, weird ear dysfunction? I hope not. There should be room for reasonable and dissenting voices in a democracy, so, shoot me down, but please don't silence me.



Sure, you are entitled to your own opinion, but did you ever hear the term, "if you dont have anything nice to say..."? That doesn't mean you shouldn't speak - in fact, if you ave something constructive to say, then go right ahead. But when you knock not only the songwriter, but as well the people who commented on the song with a discourteous and tactless post....it's just unnecessary - let's leave it at that.


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## maraskandi (Jan 27, 2012)

Rob is a friendly and active member of the forum. He has a great heart and his musical skills and positive efforts to share and interact here are mightily appreciated....


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## nikolas (Jan 27, 2012)

genuys:

A few things to consider.

1. Yes, you are a new kid to the block, and perhaps you could sit back a tiny bit and see how people act around here. Me or the other mods do not mind your ideas, but you do seem to get too aggravated and offensive in the process of explaining them. I'm a composer and yet I accept everything happening here, including known works mockups! It's the process of learning, or trying... The process of performance if you will in the digital world. Otherwise you should go piss in a piano forum for everyone not composing! 

2. We (the staff of vi) are aware that you have a dual account, which is against the rules (And personally confusing me... I don't see the reason)... You will need to decide which one you want to keep , simple as that!

3. Rudeness never got anyone anywhere...


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## rayinstirling (Jan 27, 2012)

And there's me thinking I'm rude. I'll have try a bit harder. :lol:


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 28, 2012)

Genyus - um, KVR might be more to your style? Your style of post is unwelcome here - criticism, sure, but constructive and measured, not a blast of hysteria which means people will ignore anything interesting you say.

Yes, the writing was great on this. It was of a style which isn't that easy, and Rob nailed it. I think most of us realise that a positive comment here does not equate any of us with the greatest composers of all time!

Anyway, enough distraction. Trumpets seem to be really hard. CHH on its own definitely sounds synthetic and harsh - BBB on its own too small and mellow, SM sounds tricky too. I did a pitch this week which mixed BBB and CHH with some - eek - CineBrass which gave the best overall tone I'd come up with to date and the producer really liked it too. Obviously that's a terrible cheat and you need to use CB with care because it has no jazz artics, but it added some real sparkle and body while the other libs added the character. Right now, I'm definitely into mixing libs to build something convincing - damn hard though.


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## Rob (Jan 28, 2012)

rayinstirling @ 27th January 2012 said:


> There are certain people on this forum who produce recordings like this where I listen and quite frankly don't care whether the instruments are virtual or real because the result is just so musical.
> 
> Thanks yet again for sharing this with us Roberto.
> 
> Ray



thank you Ray, for putting the accent on musicality! And coming from one who isn't afraid of speaking his mind I particularly appreciate it!


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## trumpoz (Jan 28, 2012)

genyus - you are entitled to your opinions but coming in here and posting in the manner you did..... well.... yeah, ok. If you think there are some 'crazy, mixed up dudes' around here then maybe this forum isn't the place for you. 

Guy - don't think it is cheating to use CB. If that sound gets a better result then go for it. A lot of commercial trumpet playing is how you shape the note, and so long as you can emulate that with a library then so be it (I'm not surprised you can do it with CB because Rick Baptist is a great lead trumpet player).


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## Rob (Jan 28, 2012)

thank you all [(but one :D ) but really, do you have to hide behind a second identity to speak sincerely?] , for your comments!

The general point seems to be brass is harder to pull off than saxes... 

@ Jose - for some reason the SM trumpet refused to work yesterday, it's a pity because I think it would've done a great job on this... I'm sure the full CH library has a lot more to offer, and find CH samples really good, and performed by actual jazz players, which is a big plus in my opinion... thanks for the kind words

@ Frederick - thanks man, this won't become a real performed piece, not soon anyway...

@trumpoz - saxes are a combination of SM and CH, and they tend to blend very well. I'm going to purchase the full CH library as soon as I can... the solo SM tenor I played it playing the keyboard while blowing in the EWI, as it's easier to me to get control on a keyboard... I should go and vary the velocities a bit more though, I think. I don't have BBB, unfortunately, can't afford even the lite version at present, we'll see in a future...

@ maraskandi - thank you my friend!

@ noiseboyuk - if you have the time, I'd gladly hear the results of your research on mixing brass libraries... and thanks for your kind comment


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## impressions (Jan 28, 2012)

ah why did the sax solo stop...!
you're clearly an established improviser and active rhythm section pianist, the mock up is pretty good: those soft horns with the trumpet blended well, in short fun track, and i wish i could hear how the sax player would end his solo, really great job for a VI instrument by SM.


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## Rob (Jan 28, 2012)

impressions @ 28th January 2012 said:


> ah why did the sax solo stop...!
> you're clearly an established improviser and active rhythm section pianist, the mock up is pretty good: those soft horns with the trumpet blended well, in short fun track, and i wish i could hear how the sax player would end his solo, really great job for a VI instrument by SM.



:D thank you, Ariel! Yeah, SM rules!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 28, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Fri Jan 27 said:


> *genyus* > was that really necessary?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good post.

Ironic, buy when I write something like this calling for civility and respectful exchange of ideas I get responses like:

"Dude it's a forum, that's what they are for."
" Don't preach to us about behavior." 

Nice to see someone else do it for a change.

Anyway, genyus, you could have made the same points far less rudely with about half the words, 

Rob is a talented cat who consistently posts very nicely written music and uses almost every sample library he touches well. I don't think he would ever put himself in the league of Duke Ellington; Miles Davis; Charles Mingus; Gershwin; Zappa Claude Debussy; Igor Stravinsky; Bela Bartok; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart; Lud Van Beethoven. Killer writing is The Beatles; The Beach Boys; The Kinks. Korngold, Herrmann, Goldsmith, Barry,Williams (noticed I deleted Abba

Nor would anyone else here unless they were under the influence of some mind altering substances. But there are some good writers here (like Rob) mixed in with some who are, well, not


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## windshore (Jan 28, 2012)

Great Job on the demo... might make me look more seriously again at wivi brass.

And on the "genyus" topic, it seems like such "genius" should be recognized and evaluated by the rest of the world.... oh, but there is no link to a website, no name to search.


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## nikolas (Jan 28, 2012)

I think that we should concentrate on Rob instead of any old troll in this thread...  (this of course is a general comment, not directed to specific members).


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## rayinstirling (Jan 28, 2012)

nikolas @ Sat Jan 28 said:


> I think that we should concentrate on Rob instead of any old troll in this thread...  (this of course is a general comment, not directed to specific members).



nikolas,

I wish you hadn't mentioned the dual account thing on this thread because it obviously has folks thinking about who they think it could be and just maybe getting it wrong!


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## genyus (Jan 28, 2012)

OK, well, congratulations, staff, for discovering Bruce Wayne's secret identity….and keeping it that way. You show good tact and respect of privacy. Unfortunately there will be no reward. I'm confident that I'm not the only person with multiple id's on forums, and certainly won't be the last. People have reasons for this, and it's not sinister, or subversive in any way.


Before I explain why I think you've all, regrettably, missed the point of my post. I wish to unreservedly apologize if I gave any offence to anyone, particularly Rob, who is a splendid fellow and damn fine composer.I just happen to think it was not on show in this piece ( for the reasons I give further on ), and I have a right in a ,er, democracy to have an opinion. Or no?

Let's put it in perspective: did I kill anyone? Did I slander anyone? Did I use profanities? Did I have sex with a minor? Am I a threat to national security? It's only rock'n'roll people. It was clear that the original concern in this thread was that of mocking up, and in Rob's own words: _it's a bit non sense as it's not a real composition, just a couple of ideas dropped down_. I'm sorry: no-one seems to have read, or at least acknowledged that, from the author's own fingers. And I agree with him. What I took exception to was the OTT reaction (a la "killer writing" ) , and I still stand by that. It's plainly ridiculous to describe it thus, and Mr. Rob had written some fine music, posted on this forum, making this abundantly clear. I am not attacking him, but the fanboy disproportion, and also questioning the structure and posting policies of an otherwise wonderful forum.

If I was discourteous, that was not the intention. Jeez, I have read w-a-a-a-y more nasty and unacceptable things written in forums ( including this one ), so where's the free-thinking spirit evaporated to here?! I guess "artists" have such delicate dispositions, that they cannot take detraction. I don't count myself as an artist, fortunately.

Sure it was skillfully played ( the sax was very convincing ), and I wouldn't expect anything less from him. but my gun was not aimed at Rob's head. He has a great musician's head: why would i want to shoot it?! My "harsh" comments served only to illuminate the way that I heard it. C'mon, people, it's not WW3. It's one minute demo, like you'd hear on the old Korg or Roland workstations. Very brilliant and virtuosic to sell the product. I do not take anything away from the performance.

But if you still think I'm out of order, I'm afraid there's nothing i can do about that. In terms of accounts, Mr. Nikolas and VI remain professional about this. Once again, I do regret offending anyone, but being opinionated is not a crime, and I was never rude, in my eyes. I thought I'd used a clear and coherent argument. I regret if that's offensive to some people. Well everyone, it seems. What a miscue.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 28, 2012)

Genyus, I think the issue is not so much that people here are afraid of criticism, it's more that the criticism in this case is coming from a person hiding behind a pseudonym, which is a pseudonym hiding behind _another_ pseudonym.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone needs to post under their real names, or have website links or any of that in order to be entitled to an opinion. But in this case, you came to the discussion with (at the time) only THREE previous posts to this screen name, and then proceeded to bash and tell the REST of us how we should behave on this forum. It's a little presumptuous, don't you think?

It's not that the rest of us can't accept criticism, it's just that an all-guns-ablazin' rant coming from a completely unknown person calling themselves "Genius" is naturally going to be a little annoying. All worsened when combined with that whole "pseudonym hiding behind another pseudonym" thing.


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## nikolas (Jan 28, 2012)

genyus @ Sat Jan 28 said:


> OK, well, congratulations, staff, for discovering Bruce Wayne's secret identity….and keeping it that way. You show good tact and respect of privacy. Unfortunately there will be no reward. I'm confident that I'm not the only person with multiple id's on forums, and certainly won't be the last. People have reasons for this, and it's not sinister, or subversive in any way.


Apart from the apparent sarcasm in this part, I don't see any reason for the double identity, so why not share with us all the details, shall you?



> Before I explain why I think you've all, regrettably, missed the point of my post. I wish to unreservedly apologize if I gave any offence to anyone, particularly Rob, who is a splendid fellow and damn fine composer.I just happen to think it was not on show in this piece ( for the reasons I give further on ), and I have a right in a ,er, democracy to have an opinion. Or no?


So... You think that you can just go ahead and tell people to:
a. Get a life
b. Commit their selves to the ether
c. There are a lot of people presenting stuff on here, with the purpose of discussing sample libraries and not the merits of the actual work. It's tedious, it's puzzling; it's b-o-r-i-n-g. 
d. Actually questioning why people do what they do (posting works of other composers).
e. telling all the dudes to 'get real', on and on
f. and of course... "there are some crayzee, mixed up dudes on this forum. "

I don't know about you, but this doesn't seem exactly nice, does it?



> Let's put it in perspective: did I kill anyone? Did I slander anyone? Did I use profanities? Did I have sex with a minor? Am I a threat to national security? It's only rock'n'roll people. It was clear that the original concern in this thread was that of mocking up, and in Rob's own words: _it's a bit non sense as it's not a real composition, just a couple of ideas dropped down_. I'm sorry: no-one seems to have read, or at least acknowledged that, from the author's own fingers. And I agree with him. What I took exception to was the OTT reaction (a la "killer writing" ) , and I still stand by that. It's plainly ridiculous to describe it thus, and Mr. Rob had written some fine music, posted on this forum, making this abundantly clear. I am not attacking him, but the fanboy disproportion, and also questioning the structure and posting policies of an otherwise wonderful forum.


No, you're not attacking Rob, but you're attacking every other member who posted here (for having an opinion as you, yourself has).



> If I was discourteous, that was not the intention. Jeez, I have read w-a-a-a-y more nasty and unacceptable things written in forums ( including this one ), so where's the free-thinking spirit evaporated to here?! I guess "artists" have such delicate dispositions, that they cannot take detraction. I don't count myself as an artist, fortunately.


Seriously? When I hear/read about free-thinking and freedom of speech and the such I call 'bullshit'... And, no, we don't have such delicate dispositions... we just happen to be humans and try to remain civil as well.



> Sure it was skillfully played ( the sax was very convincing ), and I wouldn't expect anything less from him. but my gun was not aimed at Rob's head. He has a great musician's head: why would i want to shoot it?! My "harsh" comments served only to illuminate the way that I heard it. C'mon, people, it's not WW3. It's one minute demo, like you'd hear on the old Korg or Roland workstations. Very brilliant and virtuosic to sell the product. I do not take anything away from the performance.
> 
> But if you still think I'm out of order, I'm afraid there's nothing i can do about that. In terms of accounts, Mr. Nikolas and VI remain professional about this. Once again, I do regret offending anyone, but being opinionated is not a crime, and I was never rude, in my eyes. I thought I'd used a clear and coherent argument. I regret if that's offensive to some people. Well everyone, it seems. What a miscue.


Well... tell you what: You *CAN* do something about it. You can think before you post and try to offend people... And about the double account you can very well tell us which one you want to keep, fair and simple.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 28, 2012)

G, I'm going to ask you: please choose the account you want to keep as your main account. Sock puppets are fun for awhile because of the anonymous nature. Bashing all the people we want to bash anonymously may seem fun for awhile but its really not okay having two accounts and is actually against the terms of your membership. This is my main issue here (although I think you could have relayed your points in a less attacking way but that is a conversation for another time).


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## lee (Jan 28, 2012)

Surprising that someone can get so upset because of the words "killer writing". Next time someone writes that something is "good" I`ll bash him/her for not recognizing what is really good music, which of course is the one and only Weird Al. Cant believe people think music in this forum is good?

/Johnny


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jan 28, 2012)

Genyus,

Are you dumb?
Are you insane?
Are you on acid?

If you dont understand the function of this section of the forum, please refrain from posting.

I just read that you have two different accounts, thats just plain stupid. Killer writing is also a way of expressing oneself and does not immediately mean that it be compared to the finest composers who ever lived.

Its a good piece of work done with lots of musicality, hard work and musical chops. Rob has been posting his music for a long time and this attack from you is not justified. 

If you are so COOL or Killer, please stop posting here and perform with a real big band every night live. This is a Virtual Instrument forum and there are a lot of considerations and things to look out for when a piece of music is posted here.

You may very well be a genius, but perhaps you need to learn how to communicate in a respectful manner.

We really dont need your negative energy here. You dont have to praise Rob - you could simply say that you dont like the work as much and dont think that its that good and then offer your point of view in a sincere manner which may actually help Rob. 

But, we have all seen too many people like you on this forum and know where this is headed.

Real shame.

Good stuff Rob - keep up the great work!!!!!!!!


Tanuj.


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## germancomponist (Jan 28, 2012)

Rob,

this sounds very cool to my ears! Well done!


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## lux (Jan 28, 2012)

Bruce Wayne, have you considered that some here used "killer writing" as actualized in light of what Rob declared, which was more or less:

- He had a short snippet of free time. Today.
- Its basically an "example", so nothing motivated by a work impulse
- Its not a real composition, just sketched ideas on the fly
- He's using sample libraries

from my perspective thats the exact meaning of killer writing here. 

Speaking about how it compares to the Greats sounds like a misinterpretation of the whole thread more than an even minimally contextualized comment, to be honest. Thats the main issue people is having here with your contribution. its more like "huh?"

Luca


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## José Herring (Jan 28, 2012)

lux @ Sat Jan 28 said:


> Bruce Wayne, have you considered that some here used "killer writing" as actualized in light of what Rob declared, which was more or less:
> 
> - He had a short snippet of free time. Today.
> - Its basically an "example", so nothing motivated by a work impulse
> ...



Yes. I could have said Killer Improv! But, I said Killer writing. Was I comparing Rob, to the giants of the 20th century? No. I would never do that. I think if we all compared ourselves and each other to the greatest of the great we would have given up a long time ago.


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