# Audio test WIP for VSS2



## AC986 (Oct 12, 2014)

I'm working on this piece and gave VSS2 a go. I think the placement works OK.


Piano in Blue and various orchestral strings etc. 

Final mix.

https://soundcloud.com/adrian-cook-79/vss2-final


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## RiffWraith (Oct 12, 2014)

Don't like it. At all. The stereo field is completely wrong; I hear phasing issues, and things just don't sound like they are sitting in the right place in relation to one another. 

The music, however, is nice. 

Cheers.


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## AC986 (Oct 12, 2014)

You don't like the placement? Well I haven't bought it yet>


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## RiffWraith (Oct 12, 2014)

adriancook @ Sun Oct 12 said:


> You don't like the placement?



MMMMMmmmmmm.....nope.



adriancook @ Sun Oct 12 said:


> Well I haven't bought it yet>



:|


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## AC986 (Oct 12, 2014)

Hmmm.

when I play it back as an audio file through Logic I can't hear any phasing. I'm probably using VSS2 incorrectly.


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## lucor (Oct 12, 2014)

I can't really agree with Jeffrey, I think the stereo field is completely fine (except for maybe the piano which I wouldn't pan so hard to the right, but that's just a matter of taste I guess).
I don't hear any phasing either, though I only have headphones to listen to it right now.
Nice piece!


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 12, 2014)

I hate it!!! What a waste of time... Wayyy too many drums, and it truly lacks sensitivity! I wish you'd do one of those string-piano-harp arrangement one day like that beautiful C.Young piece you showed me, with a little delicate glissando at the beginning & end, it would be absolutely lovely, and the mix would also be really good, because that's what you fine British musicians do best... Now this... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## RiffWraith (Oct 12, 2014)

lucor @ Sun Oct 12 said:


> I think the stereo field is completely fine...



Yeah - no, it's not.

Give me a moment to get into more detail about the "phasing" that I hear.

It's not this:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/phasedr-1.mp3

Take a listen to the original drum track:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/phasedr-orig.mp3

Then have a listen to this:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/phasedr-2.mp3

See the difference between those two? It's THAT (the latter one) which I am hearing. 


*Some good info here:*

As you probably know, sound takes time to travel. This means that two mics placed at different distances from a drum will capture the same drum hit at slightly different times. If the distance between two mics is less than approximately 15 feet, our ears continue to perceive the drum hit as a single event and do not notice the distance as a flam or delay. When mixed together, though, the frequency content of these two mics is added and subtracted in relationship to the distance. This is commonly known as phase cancellation. When two mics are mixed together, desired frequencies are often canceled out. This can create a mix thinner than what each single mic presents on its own.

To further understand phase cancellation, a simple physics lesson is required. As sound travels through air, rapid oscillations in pressure create the audible frequencies you and I perceive as sound. Since all frequencies travel at the same speed, their oscillations, measured in Hertz (cycles per second), create waveforms of different lengths. These various waveform lengths mean that at different distances from a sound source, instances of positive and negative air pressure are present. If two mics are placed at distances in which a particular frequency has opposite air pressures, cancellation of this frequency occurs. This thins out that particular frequency from the mix.

Orig. article:

http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/220.html (http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/r ... l/220.html)

Cheers.


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## AC986 (Oct 12, 2014)

OK thanks gents. What I'll do is go away and come back in about an hour and try and see what had happened. It's good to get your thoughts. I'm a terrible mixer and masterer in general and this is a WIP.

Jeff you may be hearing a patch from Omni that could sound like phasing. I'll stick it up separately and you can listen.

Yeah Alex! You've got a good set of ears. Good memory! :D


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## amsams (Oct 12, 2014)

Great piece Adrian... I love the mood. I don't hear the phasing, but my ears are definitely not trained---nor are they sensitive enough---to pick out that detail. I do hear the phasing in that drum track, and I appreciate the info Jeffrey. I've been trying to work better placement into my tracks recently and this has really helped!


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## AC986 (Oct 13, 2014)

amsams @ Sun Oct 12 said:


> Great piece Adrian... I love the mood. I don't hear the phasing, but my ears are definitely not trained---nor are they sensitive enough---to pick out that detail.



That's very good of you.

However, it's a bit of a mess at the moment. I love to come here and listen to everyone's work. It's always pristine and finished. 

I will try later today to improve the sound and orchestration and get the finished track up.


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 13, 2014)

It is a lovely piece and creates a lovely mood Adrian.

I have a couple of questions….

1) Why put the piano over to the right and not have it centred (you can tell I'm a pianist can't you - always wanting centre stage ha ha)?

2) Your mixing always seemed good to me. What makes you want to take a new approach over your usual methods?


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## rayinstirling (Oct 13, 2014)

I agree with Stephen,
Why is the piano not centre stage and I'm not a piano player?
Also, I'm not sure I like Piano in Blue in this cue. Sounds a tad too muffled.

Ray


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## AC986 (Oct 13, 2014)

Thanks Steve. I never really have confidence in mixing because one of the library gents thinks I'm basically crap, but is always good enough to do all that for me, although I get the feeling that's going to change soon. Glad you like the track. Always appreciated. I have to go to the dreaded physio today so I will try and get this track further down the road later.

Thanks Ray. You're right there because I made too severe a cut on the EQ and took out too much. I'll change it and also I think it's too loud anyway. Also, the reason it's over to the left is because I based this track on a piece of Bach (keyboard extract from C Minor Fantasia, but radically changed :wink: ) and from a track of one of life's great and unsung heroes of mine, Christopher Young, and the piano is panned slightly left. This is very much a WIP. It's always a learning curve to me getting any kind of sound out these naughty misbehaving samples.


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## Simplesly (Oct 13, 2014)

Adrian, wait, is the piano on the left or the right to you? I think we're all hearing it on the right. I tend to put the piano about halfway back on the stage, mixed tight, and a little to the right. Visualize it to the right of the double basses, about the same depth as the horns. It tends to get more phasey and muffled as I increase the stereo width and reverb. I don't like that sound unless a distant, ethereal and thin sounding piano is what I am going for. 

I did notice (as did others) that the piano in your example suffers from a little bit of phase cancellation. Maybe you might try to put it a little more to the center and mix a little more dry signal in (effectively bringing it a bit closer to the listener.) That piano in blue is really nice and intimate and I have always preferred the up close demos of it versus the orchestral ones.

edit: I'd also love it if you brought that english horn up, too...


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 13, 2014)

This has all turned out to become a very interesting intellectual mixing thread for an absolutely lovely heartfelt and well structured piece from beginning to end with very subtle layers in orchestration you rarely hear nowadays in MIDI! 

To me, it sounds all fine, except for the piano indeed! Yet, I wouldn't overthink it! What i'd simply do is make sure we feel all the instruments are playing in the same room, like a living organism, use your imaginative mixing mind, so yes pull the piano back "just" a little back in db levels, a bit of EQ, maybe pan it a little bit more to the center...

But if Adrian prefers it on the right or the left, center, sustained, dry, he's the boss, no rules...

Just experiment with EQ, reverb, panning, etc then record the settings, take note, make it a mixing template when you judge you have something right to your taste, so you know you've learned from setbacks... 

But Piano in blue is absolutely fantastic and a true timeless gem in piano libraries... Whether you play jazz, or Rock n' Roll... It's one of those libraries i wouldn't even notice it was this one that was used, which i think of as a very good sign and good taste from Adrian...

The woodwinds, almost halfway and after into the piece might also use a little softening in the attack or blending with the other instruments as well especially when you hear the vibrato...

But the main thing on the mixing i want to comment on is that for such a simple piece it's actually much better, especially the sound of the sustained strings, than so many pieces of any genre i've heard here...

Adrian, i can't mix for shit either... :D
It scares me much more than asking myself whether i've gotten the melody right!


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## AC986 (Oct 13, 2014)

Neil thanks. I'm dyslexic and sometimes left means right and visa versa. It's right. Yes, too far right based on your experience with phasing. I'm on it this afternoon. Good advice. Interestingly Cinesamples told me the last time to go a bit closer with the piano. I will do that. Although something likes this needs to be bathed in reverb but not overdone.


Alex! I'm on it! :D Ditto the piano. I'll put something up tonight if feasible.

This is what this is meant to be Alex. A mixing subject/thread that will develop hopefully into a working piece. After all, who are we trying to impress with these pieces. We are all musicians here. I think it's a lot more fun to get into a work flow _sometimes_ on this part of the board. You never know, it can help people to overcome mixing and mastering issues. I feel slightly nuts sometimes just putting something up and saying 'listen to this'. I need to have a reason. :lol:


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## vicontrolu (Oct 13, 2014)

Guys have you tried the free Space360? Sure, VSS2 has tons of more options but i find this plugin very useful to put dry libraries in the same room as other, "weter" ones. I use only the early reflection part though, then send to reverb.

Nice piece Adrian. The piano made my head lean a to the left to compensate the weight, though.


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## AC986 (Oct 13, 2014)

vicontrolu @ Mon Oct 13 said:


> Nice piece Adrian. The piano made my head lean a to the left to compensate the weight, though.



That's very good of you to say. And that's probably why I wound up at the physio this afternoon. (IPCDYH) _Instrument placement can damage your health _


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## vicontrolu (Oct 13, 2014)

haha :D

Seriously, if you are on a PC, try space360


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## ryans (Oct 14, 2014)

Beautiful.. subtle layers in the orchestration. What a gorgeous opening.. I was really (really really) expecting a melody at 0:33, instead of the chord change. Maybe oboe or english horn? But that's just me..

Great stuff 

Ryan


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## AC986 (Oct 14, 2014)

ryans @ Tue Oct 14 said:


> Beautiful.. subtle layers in the orchestration. What a gorgeous opening.. I was really (really really) expecting a melody at 0:33, instead of the chord change. Maybe oboe or english horn? But that's just me..
> 
> Great stuff
> 
> Ryan



Cheers that's good of you to say.

It's very much a WIP. I haven't had a chance to go any further these last few days. Been too busy. Can't take any credit for the opening. That's really Christopher Young tbh. 
Struggling to get the sound atm. 

0.33 is interesting because I thought about that, but adhered to Bach's rules. :D 

The trouble with melody on this Ryan, is that the library will say keep the flow and the mood and don't let a melody get in the way. Anyway, I'm on it tonight again. ( I think)

:D


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## AC986 (Oct 15, 2014)

The continuation is up at the beginning of this thread.

Sorry no melody but I managed to finish it. Any mixing issues please comment.

They are definitely there, but I thought I would put this up anyway.


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## marclawsonmusic (Oct 15, 2014)

I learned a lot about phasing from reading this post. Thanks, Jeffrey. I am interested to hear your feedback on this latest version too (if you have the time).

Phasing issues aside... Adrian, your music is lovely. I am a fan.


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## rayinstirling (Oct 16, 2014)

Adrian,
Where did the harp go? Seems a little quite to me and I expected at least one repeat of the opening figure at the end :cry: 

will send you a file by PM

Ray


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## AC986 (Oct 16, 2014)

Marc that's great and Jeffrey has been very useful on the issue of phasing. Phasers on Stun is Jeffrey's motto btw.

Ray I will remix again tonight. Didn't have time last night to do much. I will try again this evening and stick it up if possible.


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## AC986 (Oct 16, 2014)

Final mix is up Ray if you want another go. Very little added in the way of EQ. An ad limiter and Lexicon reverb.

I have an untreated wav if you prefer.


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## Mark Stothard (Oct 16, 2014)

Love this piece Adrian. Beautiful movement and structure. Nice to hear something that's a break from the norm. Too much of everyone going for the epic sound (me included)

The only minor nit from me is the piano does sound a little muddy.


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 16, 2014)

Dreamy. Always enjoy your piano writing. Haunting. Special.


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## AC986 (Oct 16, 2014)

That's very good of you to say Mark. Mucho appreciato!


The piano is Piano in Blue and is untreated believe it or not. I don't want it over prominent in this and the whole thing should be almost neutral if that makes any sense.
I just sent it in to the library. Rejection is my middle name so here's hoping.

Well spotted though. :D


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## AC986 (Oct 16, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Thu Oct 16 said:


> Dreamy. Always enjoy your piano writing. Haunting. Special.



That's a big compliment from an ace piano player. I may not be worthy but I'll take it! 

:D


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 16, 2014)

adriancook @ Thu Oct 16 said:


> Stephen Rees @ Thu Oct 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Dreamy. Always enjoy your piano writing. Haunting. Special.
> ...



Sincerely meant. It is very hard to communicate genuine beauty and emotion with samples and for me you have done it with this piece.


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## rayinstirling (Oct 17, 2014)

Yes, I lovely cue and a pleasurable listen and multiple replays in WaveLab :lol: .
I believe it's off to the publisher so best of luck.

Ray

https://app.box.com/s/6k5wa7ye5lujhonhxkxe (My Take)


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 17, 2014)

Yes hope it gets accepted. Let us know 

*Whispers* But there is a small part of me that hopes it gets rejected which inspires you to write a whole album of piano music and release it yourself as a gift to the world - it'll be your 'The Beyondness of Things' ala John Barry


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## AC986 (Oct 17, 2014)

rayinstirling @ Fri Oct 17 said:


> Yes, I lovely cue and a pleasurable listen and multiple replays in WaveLab :lol: .
> I believe it's off to the publisher so best of luck.
> 
> Ray
> ...



Yes that a monster improvement on my sound Ray. Many thanks. And mucho gracias for the wav file. I will pore over this file with great interest. Really smoothes it out a lot.

In the spirit of this thread, the whole thing was for a track to test out *VSS2*

I think it works very well and will proceed to purchase this application. I cannot hear any phasing in this track. Other may disagree of course.


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## AC986 (Oct 17, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Fri Oct 17 said:


> Yes hope it gets accepted. Let us know
> 
> *Whispers* But there is a small part of me that hopes it gets rejected which inspires you to write a whole album of piano music and release it yourself as a gift to the world - it'll be your 'The Beyondness of Things' ala John Barry



Hahah! Thanks again Steve. John Barry is bit Beyondness of me I feel.

No it rejected this morning unsurprisingly.

It was really for the VSS2 thing. I think you have to write a track yourself to test these things out and it seems to work very well. Not so much with say Spitfire because it's not really necessary.

But for Truestrike, VSL and CS2 and the PIB placement, I think it's a great boost for the money.


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 17, 2014)

Ah sorry to hear that.

We had a similar experience earlier this week with rejection(s) (hence my somewhat cheeky comments in the library music awards thread ha ha). Publishers don't want beautiful music sincerely written - they want what will make them money - which isn't always (or perhaps even 'often') the same thing.

Been listening to William Walton's 'Improvisations on an Impromptu by Benjamin Britten' this morning. I love that piece. It is important for me to remind myself how vast and wonderful the world of music is outside my tiny little part of it 

Like your piece does.

But…..

It needs a name…..'Haunted Reflection' or something like that...


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## AC986 (Oct 17, 2014)

I phoned up and had a conversation about it and completely understand. 

Anyway, 20 minutes later they phoned back and said give it a name ( I just don't do names) and we will put it up on the site and await an album where we can fit it in. That's very nice but a bit like losing a shilling and finding sixpence. :lol: 

Anyhow, I must have sounded piqued because they came back and said they will give me an album to do on Monday with the style of music required. That's what disappointment does for you. However, it won't be this genre you can bet on that. 

That said, they're good guys and good writers themselves so I guess they get it all the time.

Thanks for your support Steve!!!

I will call it Haunted Reflection and will also send in Ray's wav. master too. It's turned into a team event with special thanks to VSS and extra thanks to Christopher Young for original inspiration. Hahaha!

And anyone else who requires recognition of this crazy long thread. :D


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 17, 2014)

All's well that ends well


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## John Walker (Oct 17, 2014)

Really awesome hypnotic track. Really different to your last batch of tracks which I enjoyed a lot too.

late edit. you said it was an extract from a bach piece Adrian. How did that work? Copy?


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## AC986 (Oct 18, 2014)

Hi John and thanks.

Copying no. It's more a feeling you get when playing something and that then gives you an idea that you might incorporate with some other idea.

The Bach bit that gave me an idea.

https://soundcloud.com/adrian-cook-79/bach-bars


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## SymphonicSamples (Oct 18, 2014)

Hey Adrian , lovely piece . I enjoyed the way the strings interweave in and out with the piano . So easy just to close your eyes and simple listen . I've been thinking about getting VSS2, I'm gonna take another look into it again . Just when I thought I could do without it o-[][]-o


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## AC986 (Oct 18, 2014)

That's great Matthew. Many thanks. An international piece. Love the mixture of CS2 and Mural personally.

Strings are Australian and English. Piano is American. VSS2 and other various items are German. Horns, Glocks and Celesta are Dutch.
Style and genre is American. Named by a Welshman. Mastered by a Scotsman. Written by an Englishman. 

That would never have happened in 1723!

:D


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 18, 2014)

Just checked with a lawyer if there's such a thing as 'naming royalties'.....

The answer?

No.

Bah!


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