# Spitfire LABS ads on this site?!



## Arbee (Jun 1, 2018)

I hope SA are paying s...loads for littering this site with LABS ads, because apart from hitting the site's page loading times it's IMHO completely over the top. Please be aware some of us are not SA fans, no matter how much hype and Internet celebrity they have.

In fact, Mike please remove me from the VI Control database (that's a formal request to no longer show me as one of registered users count to prospective advertisers), sorry I'm out.....

Edit: so we're clear, I have no affiliation whatsoever with any developers


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## ka00 (Jun 1, 2018)

The fact that it’s flashing so much, like those banner ads that pop up when you “win” something on a sketchy website, just doesn’t match the refined aesthetic that SF normally employ.


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## gregh (Jun 1, 2018)

yeah those ads overstep the mark - might be fun for a couple of seconds but ruins the "watchability" of the site


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## Robo Rivard (Jun 1, 2018)

It's annoying like hell.


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## webs (Jun 1, 2018)

It's a teaser for the new Spitfire epic, ultra-modern, and innovative Myspace Alternative Vintage Collection, a completely new, never before seen, curated, bespoke artisan collection featuring only the finest of London's <blink> tags, and modeled after the priceless vintage leds on outboard gear similar to that seen at Air Studios, featuring exquisite binary articulations of "present" and "absent (on the very edge of non-presence!)," with a portion of proceeds gifted to prestigious seizure prevention organizations. (That, or there's quite a bounty for new opt-ins?)


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## Garry (Jun 2, 2018)

How dare they advertise their free samples that they used to give 1% of their profits to charity from, but now continue to do so, but pay it themselves.

I get your point, you don’t like the flashing, but wow, flashing really triggers you to leave the database? Isn’t that a little over the top? But if you’re reading this message, the flashing is probably no longer on your screen anyway, as you immediately scroll it off your screen! That seems a less drastic remedy, no?

Aesthetically, I agree - I think it doesn’t look great, but given it’s purpose, I’m going to give them a pass, and just shrug, ‘whatever’.

Can we move this straight to the drama zone now?


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## Arbee (Jun 2, 2018)

Garry said:


> How dare they advertise their free samples that they used to use to give 1% of their profits to charity, but now continue to do so but pay it themselves.
> 
> I get your point, you don’t like the flashing, but wow, flashing really triggers you to leave the database? Isn’t that a little over the top? But if you’re reading this message, the flashing is probably no longer on your screen anyway, as you immediately scroll it off your screen!
> 
> ...


Garry, the fact that I'm able to respond means my account is still active for now. Your response itself is a great way to amplify my reasons for deciding this forum is no longer for me. Move this thread to the drama zone? Really? And re SA, have you ever heard of "societal marketing"? 

Anyway, best wishes to you Garry, whatever your own aspirations may be for being so prolific at VI-C


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## JPComposer (Jun 2, 2018)

I hear there's vacancies over on the Pointless Whining Forum. Maybe you'll be happier there.


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## gregh (Jun 2, 2018)

Arbee said:


> Garry, the fact that I'm able to respond means my account is still active for now. Your response itself is a great way to amplify my reasons for deciding this forum is no longer for me. Move this thread to the drama zone? Really? And re SA, have you ever heard of "societal marketing"?
> 
> Anyway, best wishes to you Garry, whatever your own aspirations may be for being so prolific at VI-C


use the ignore function rather than leave - it is the saving grace for being online


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## Garry (Jun 2, 2018)

Arbee said:


> Move this thread to the drama zone? Really?


Yup, precisely where it belongs: along with, 'ooh, Spitfire's email wasn't a mistake', and 'ooh, Spitfire's 'pro' isn't really 'pro' is it', then this, 'ooh, Spitfire's banner is too flashy' will sit just perfectly.

However, since any replies (including this) only serve to promote what is an utterly pointless thread, this will be my last comment on it. But before I go, I have to at least snigger a little at your melodramatic exit, "Take me off the database", only to be followed later by you still reading and checking said forum and posting, "you didn't take me off yet, I can still post?". Oh please!


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## midi-et-quart (Jun 2, 2018)

Makes me want to get a paid premium option without ads...


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 2, 2018)

Just use an ad blocker. 
(Then come the ethics of using a site funded by advertising, but I’ll leave that to you.)


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## gpax (Jun 2, 2018)

I guess if you really aren’t a fan of said company, or are even prone to loathe them, then this ad campaign might be a slice of over-the-top hell. I never thought of it that way before.

I’m not of that opinion, but do want to express continued support for Mike - however he chooses to generate revenue for the upkeep of this site. Pleading guilty to being click-bated here (or is it baited?), I am nevertheless reminded of how many times I get information from this forum which is paid for and maintained by someone else.


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## SchnookyPants (Jun 2, 2018)

Subtle, understated. What's not to like?

Actually, it's a perfect counterpoint to LABS' GUI.


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## damcry (Jun 2, 2018)

Much ado about nothing ...


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 2, 2018)

Since when does being a fan, or not being a fan, have anything to do with the banner adverts?


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## ka00 (Jun 2, 2018)

Just so any developers reading this know, I see all the banners on this site. They don’t need to be animated to near seizure inducing levels. Even a static banner can be effective.

You need to consider that the effect of seeing your ad is cumulative. A little exposure over a long time. That same culmulative effect can backfire if your banner is exhausting.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 2, 2018)

I must be seeing different banners to everyone else. 

I didn’t even notice them until clicking on this thread...


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## ceemusic (Jun 2, 2018)

Not seeing them here either, am using Ad blockers.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 2, 2018)

I think some people on this forum would complain about a bottle of water being too wet, if it had a spitfire label on it...


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## Nao Gam (Jun 2, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I think some people on this forum would complain about a bottle of water being too wet, if it had a spitfire label on it...


Those HZ bottle mics were a little too wet actually..

Jk jk


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## fretti (Jun 2, 2018)

There are different approaches in marketing on how to get people to know your product and advertise it best. 
But I guess it's (just) an "experiment" to see weither or not more people are actually clicking on such ads here and end up downloading (though of course, as it's free, I think everybody clicking will download it anyways).
And even though some people will get tired of seeing it, it's undeniable that you at least are more likely to see the flashing ad with huge letters over some static non changing ad. This thread is proof enough for this I guess...

When I look at the top of this site right now I get the "AizerX - Modern Designer Toolkit" ad as a banner and the LABS ad smaller on the top right corner. Even when trying to concentrate on the AizerX ad, with the LABS thing flashing all the time I at some point end up looking at the LABS ad...and even when completely not interest in the thing or the company (wich I am not in this case, as I like Spitfire and their labs) I'd (and I just say the majority of people here too) end up clicking it just to see what this annoying ad could actually be for...so mission accomplished by the marketing team.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 2, 2018)

I kinda thought this might happen. Before I get into the details, if you guys could cut me a break on this, especially after all the drama I’ve had to deal with for the last couple months, I’d really appreciate it. And now for the longer version…

Ads on VI-Control are really cheap. My Realitone ads on KVR and Gearslutz cost me anywhere from 4 to 10 times as much as an ad here costs. A smart businessman (which I am not) would raise the prices significantly, but there are reasons that, for now, I’m not doing that. (Smaller companies wouldn’t be able to afford higher rates is one reason.)

A couple companies (one of which is Spitfire) have figured out that with ads so cheap, why not buy a ton of them at once, so they could maximize their exposure. Cheaper than a Facebook campaign and way more effective. I said okay, but in fairness to the other advertisers, I set a limit of half the exposures. In other words, only half the ads in the rotation would be Spitfire ads, the other half would be the other advertisers. Spitfire gets a huge splash, the other advertisers still get good value compared to KVR or Gearslutz.

I also set a limit of one week for this campaign. Spitfire said okay and they sent me a zip file with the artwork for the ad to run from Friday morning to the next Friday morning. I’ve done this once before (with a different company) and there weren’t any problems, so I figured everything will be fine.

Soooo … on Friday morning, I opened the zip file and saw the blinking artwork. Uh oh.

Now, let me stop the story here and tell you that running this forum has been a _lot_ more challenging than I expected. I don’t spend the 45 hours a week that Fredrick did, but I do spend at least 10, and many weeks more than 20. Even right now, just from this morning, I have two emails waiting for me - one about an “unethical” developer that I need to “do something about,” and another about a drama I won’t go into. Even deciding whether I should allow these 50% takeover blitzes in the first place took some hours to think over. All these freakin' decisions are wearing me out, because when I make wrong ones (and yes, I do make my share of wrong ones), boy do I hear about it.

Anyway, I’m looking at this blinking artwork. It’s Friday. I’m in Los Angeles. Spitfire is in London. (I think.) They’re not going to be able to do new artwork by the end of the day, so nothing’s going to happen until Monday. They made their Labs announcement yesterday, so the ball on that is already rolling. And this is a big enough deal to them that they decided, for the first time, to do this 50% ad blast. And it’s free. Plus once you’ve scrolled down the page, you don’t even see the ad.

So I decided to just go with it. Right decision … wrong decision … I dunno. But it’s only for a week, so if it really bugs anyone that much, just take a break from the forum until Friday.

As far as removing people from databases goes (because apparently I need yet another thing to do), I don’t know how to do that. Other than the mailing list, I don’t think we even have a database. To get off the mailing list, just click the Unsubscribe button. You'll miss out on the chance to win cool prizes, though! 

EDIT: Regarding the site's page load times, the SA Labs blinking banner ads are only 28KB, which is less than most other ads, which are usually 50KB to 100KB.


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## ghobii (Jun 2, 2018)

I would worry about it if there were 1000 people in this thread screaming- "BLiNKinG ADs! My EYES!
Honestly, they're all over the net, I barely notice them.


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## mouse (Jun 2, 2018)

People get upset about the most hilarious things here. I can't imagine any other forum on the internet that would get so annoyed about a flashing banner ad. Especially when its for amazing free software.


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## Garry (Jun 2, 2018)

Right decision Mike. Many of us recognise and appreciate the work you put into this forum.

I think in this thread, we’re giving too much credit to the OP by continuing discussing it. I mean, just go back and read his over-exaggerated complaint, and consider it, particularly in the context of what LABS is all about!

Even if the ad is mildly annoying (and now I’ve had my attention unavoidably drawn to it, yes it’s a little irritating, though I honestly didn’t notice it before), the OP had several options, in order of reasonableness:

Scroll down 1 inch from the top of the screen - it’s gone!
Curse a little at the ‘advertising arms race’, perhaps even afford yourself a brief 'one eyebrow raise' indignant protest, maybe even a 'what's the modern world coming to' and a dismayed shake of the head... and then move on with your day.
Send an email to Spitfire to raise your concern in a constructive way (they don’t want to piss of their potential customers, maybe they’ll listen).
Start a thread and a drama about it on VI-C.
No4, PLUS Leave the forum.
No5, PLUS melodramatically demand that you are removed from ‘the database’, so that you are not counted as a member to potential advertisers.
Of these potential options, the OP dialled it all the way up to No6!! I mean, really? Then, despite the advert being so offensive to him, and causing him to leave the forum, he was back later, commenting on the same thread, in a forum he’s supposedly left without trace!

Your ‘drama zone’ is a great and effective idea. I strongly recommend this to it.

Keep up the good work Mike - it is appreciated by 99% of us here.


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## Polkasound (Jun 2, 2018)

New rule: If you complain about anything so trivial on VI-Control, and you're younger than 85 years old, you will receive a seven-day Early Bird Special suspension from all Country Kitchen, Old Country Buffet, and Perkins restaurants.


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## Garry (Jun 2, 2018)

Polkasound said:


> New rule: If you complain about anything so trivial on VI-Control, and you're younger than 85 years old, you will receive a seven-day Early Bird Special suspension from all Country Kitchen, Old Country Buffet, and Perkins restaurants.


... and get off moi land!!


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## fiestared (Jun 2, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> I kinda thought this might happen. Before I get into the details, if you guys could cut me a break on this, especially after all the drama I’ve had to deal with for the last couple months, I’d really appreciate it. And now for the longer version…
> 
> Ads on VI-Control are really cheap. My Realitone ads on KVR and Gearslutz cost me anywhere from 4 to 10 times as much as an ad here costs. A smart businessman (which I am not) would raise the prices significantly, but there are reasons that, for now, I’m not doing that. (Smaller companies wouldn’t be able to afford higher rates is one reason.)
> 
> ...


Wrong or not wrong, from NOW and for ever I'll be with you ! Why ? because I really like this site, and you're clearly the BEST manager for it... This area is my internet house, and I don't want to be Vi-C less...


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## ka00 (Jun 2, 2018)

Mike, thanks for shedding some light behind the scenes. This forum is an incredible resource for so many different people with varied aspirations and backgrounds, all sharing a love for music creation. And I, like many here, just wanted to thank you for your commitment to running it so smoothly, even when we don’t realize the challenges you face in doing so.

In the section of this site addressing advertisers you quite rightly point out that:

_"With all due respect to other websites or forums, the VI-Control audience is a high end group."_

The companies who advertise here have always managed to have classy, enticing banners, including Spitfire. If these LABS banners stuck out for some people, it might be useful to think about why, and consider having a maximum frames per second guideline, or something of that nature for advertisers.

Personally, quitting the forum is the furthest thing from my mind as a result of seeing something that could be improved. So, let's please not lump everyone who replies to this thread in the same boat. If anything, any suggestion I make is only intended to support what happens here and to maintain the things that distinguish v.i. control from other places on the internet.


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## midi-et-quart (Jun 2, 2018)

Thank you very much for this detailed insight, Mike.



ka00 said:


> If these LABS banners stuck out for some people, it might be useful to think about why, and consider having a maximum frames per second guideline, or something of that nature



I think that's an excellent idea.


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## lokotus (Jun 2, 2018)

I don't see anything wrong with that: The currency of the internet is getting "attention points" (sometimes even without delivering real quality) So thats what companies are after - the only problem is when everybody does the same thing at the same time in the same aggressive manner, then it becomes pointless...


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## rottoy (Jun 2, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I think some people on this forum would complain about a bottle of water being too wet, if it had a spitfire label on it...


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## LinusW (Jun 2, 2018)

Their ads are no different than the other ads run on this forum. Most ads are animated on the web.


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## tehreal (Jun 2, 2018)

@Mike Greene it's fine. Didn't affect my enjoyment of using this site in the slightest.

Let's just talk about the cool prizes you mentioned.


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## dtcomposer (Jun 2, 2018)

For whatever reason these ads are giving me a physical headache. I can't remember earlier ones that did this. It might be the color scheme or the brightness along with the incessant flashing. I think lots of people are reacting emotionally (at least those who are reacting) because of how annoying it is. I haven't looked at them for 5 minutes while reading this thread and I still kind of have a headache from only a few seconds of seeing them.

Anyway, People should probably be a bit less smug about those who are annoyed. These ads are pretty over the top from a design perspective. Complaining about them is not just some random "I hate spitfire" thing that people seem to love to pick sides about. I own a ton of Spitfire products and don't really care about their marketing process and the ads are really annoying and distracting. I'd even say they are painful to look at for me personally, and make me agitated.

I appreciate Mike's explanation and I think it makes sense. Maybe we can just communicate with developers in the future to be really careful about flashing ads. Learning experience and all that. Thanks.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 2, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> I think some people on this forum would complain about a bottle of water being too wet, if it had a spitfire label on it...


Ooo, where can I buy such a thing? <throws wallet at screen>


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## LinusW (Jun 2, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Ooo, where can I buy such a thing? <throws wallet at screen>


Water was the free patch from Orchestral Swarm. Free Water. Incredible right?


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## Mike Greene (Jun 2, 2018)

ka00 said:


> If these LABS banners stuck out for some people, it might be useful to think about why, and consider having a maximum frames per second guideline, or something of that nature


Yep, definitely a good idea. I think we already have that as a rule, in fact.  The problem with this one, of course, is that the timing was bad for making changes. In hindsight, I should have opened the zip file before Friday to make sure everything was okay.


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## gregh (Jun 2, 2018)

I don't blame VI or even Spitfire really - they've tried something and it is really annoying to a reasonable number of people. I would not see the need to make site restrictions on ad style, I'd just let Spitfire know their ad has annoyed the VI users and ask them not to make something like that again for this site. Spitfire are very "in your face" but they also seem pretty nice people so I imagine they'd be happy to go along with that.

(I taught web and media design at Uni for a while and students often came up with cool and funny ideas. It was only when asked to imagine seeing that cool idea 37 times when all you want to do is get the product info or read the article / whatever that they realised cool and funny can be counterproductive on a website)


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## higgs (Jun 2, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Regarding the site's page load times, the SA Labs blinking banner ads are only 28KB, which is less than most other ads, which are usually 50KB to 100KB.


So everytime the banner blinks its 28KB. If I watch it blink 100 times that’s 2800KB bandwidth usage, and it blinks fast! Be nice, Mike, or I’ll watch it blink all day and run your server fees through the roof. 

Edit: </joke>


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## Kyle Preston (Jun 2, 2018)

These pretzels are making me thirsty.


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## markleake (Jun 2, 2018)

Lol. I thought this was a joke thread at first! Someone left VIC because of a blinky add?! I think maybe they had other issues.

I really don't understand this at all. Blinking GIFs are as old as the Web itself and are everywhere. Anyone younger than 80 automatically knows to ignore them. How is this suddenly a thing?


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## robgb (Jun 2, 2018)

Oh, for crissakes. Just use ad block.


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## NoamL (Jun 2, 2018)

Regardless of how you all feel about the blinking ads (I am in the camp of people who thinks they are slightly annoying), your displeasure should not fall on @Mike Greene.

Mike needs ads to keep the forum going. This forum is an invaluable resource for all of us. If you demand Mike to approve the ads by hand to meet some Home Owner's Association -style _"Does it fit with the aesthetic of the forum?"_ heuristic, what that really means you're asking Mike to spend more time on the forum which increases the cost - a cost that will inevitably be passed on to developers or users somehow.

I think Mike has demonstrated pretty damn good leadership & judgement so far in his tenure as forum owner. For example the idea of not letting any one developer buy out all the ad space, is something that he never polled or asked us about, yet it is a common sense move that increases the usefulness of the forum for all composers & all developers.


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## gregh (Jun 2, 2018)

markleake said:


> Lol. I thought this was a joke thread at first! Someone left VIC because of a blinky add?! I think maybe they had other issues.
> 
> I really don't understand this at all. Blinking GIFs are as old as the Web itself and are everywhere. Anyone younger than 80 automatically knows to ignore them. How is this suddenly a thing?


actually it is impossible to ignore if within your visual field - you will either orient to the blink or suppress the orienting response. Either way the blink imposes itself


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## g.c. (Jun 2, 2018)

Garry said:


> Right decision Mike. Many of us recognise and appreciate the work you put into this forum.
> 
> I think in this thread, we’re giving too much credit to the OP by continuing discussing it. I mean, just go back and read his over-exaggerated complaint, and consider it, particularly in the context of what LABS is all about!
> 
> ...


a 2ND ON THIS!
g.c.


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## g.c. (Jun 2, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Regardless of how you all feel about the blinking ads (I am in the camp of people who thinks they are slightly annoying), your displeasure should not fall on @Mike Greene.
> 
> Mike needs ads to keep the forum going. This forum is an invaluable resource for all of us. If you demand Mike to approve the ads by hand to meet some Home Owner's Association -style _"Does it fit with the aesthetic of the forum?"_ heuristic, what that really means you're asking Mike to spend more time on the forum which increases the cost - a cost that will inevitably be passed on to developers or users somehow.
> 
> I think Mike has demonstrated pretty damn good leadership & judgement so far in his tenure as forum owner. For example the idea of not letting any one developer buy out all the ad space, is something that he never polled or asked us about, yet it is a common sense move that increases the usefulness of the forum for all composers & all developers.


And I'll double 2nd on this. All you have to do if you don't like something is turn it off!
g.c.


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## markleake (Jun 2, 2018)

gregh said:


> actually it is impossible to ignore if within your visual field - you will either orient to the blink or suppress the orienting response. Either way the blink imposes itself


True, but if it's a problem for you, just install an add blocker for your browser. Or... scroll down.

I'm not saying they aren't annoying, but these things have been annoying us since the dinosaur age of the internet.


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 2, 2018)

I downloaded the pack. Just made 2 new songs with the piano and strings. This is awesome!


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## jiffybox (Jun 2, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> These pretzels are making me thirsty.


Ha, thanks for that, Kyle. I needed a bit of Seinfeldian levity right about then. I'd leave a happy dancing emoji for you, but I don't want to distract anyone's attention from this riveting thread...


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 2, 2018)

Kyle Preston said:


> These pretzels are making me thirsty.


Can we talk about pretzels instead now? I think it might be more productive at this point.

The pretzels we have here in the UK are small, savoury type things like a bag of crisps (or chips for the Americans here.)

On American TV I see these giant pretzels served by (for example) New York street vendors. What are they? Like a cake? Sweet or savoury? I’ve always wanted to know. Are they delicious?

(Not at all apologetic for going OT.)


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## Ben E (Jun 3, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Can we talk about pretzels instead now? I think it might be more productive at this point.
> 
> The pretzels we have here in the UK are small, savoury type things like a bag of crisps (or chips for the Americans here.)
> 
> ...


They're mushy (they don't crunch) and they're warm. We (U.S.) have the little ones too. The only thing they both have in common is salt and shape.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 3, 2018)

Ben E said:


> They're mushy (they don't crunch) and they're warm. We (U.S.) have the little ones too. The only thing they both have in common is salt and shape.


Then I want one. French Toast is another amazing thing you guys do that we have little concept of over here in limey. Our bacon is superior though.


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## fretti (Jun 3, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Then I want one. French Toast is another amazing thing you guys do that we have little concept of over here in limey. Our bacon is superior though.


French toast and pretzels have their origins in continental Europe and are still eaten to this day...so it's not only americans that are better in doing these things

Also: how exactly did this thread get from a Spitfire ads to food?


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 3, 2018)

Eggy bread is French toast...


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## muk (Jun 3, 2018)

markleake said:


> Lol. I thought this was a joke thread at first! Someone left VIC because of a blinky add?! I think maybe they had other issues.



Not trying to single out anyone, but these kind of needlessly aggressive and ridiculing posts don't help anyone. To me they seem to pop up frequently on VI-C recently, basically on any controversial topic. And they really don't do anything to improve the experience of the forum.

Anyway. Clearly Arbee has other issues, but issues with VI-C, not the kind you are insinuating. His problem was that VI-C feels very Spitfire-centric at times. They run an attention grabbing marketing, and they have a fanbase that is extremely vocal on these boards. Any criticism gets shouted down (see the Daniel James on Hans Zimmer Strings fiasco). Other developers have a hard time getting fair space in the discussions. And it can feel increasingly difficult to find unbiased opinions/reviews about products on this forum. In comes the flashing Spitfire ads, taking over half of the entire marketing space. Looks a bit like Spitfire truly had taken over these boards for good. So, no, Arbee didn't leave because of a blinky add. The blinky adds were just the straw to break the camel's back.

Now, you may or may not agree with that sentiment. And that's something that could be discussed if the whole community could refrain from petty bickering for a while.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 3, 2018)

fretti said:


> Also: how exactly did this thread get from a Spitfire ads to food?


A deliberate derailment of sorts..


Puzzlefactory said:


> Eggy bread is French toast...


Sure, but eggy bread is served with ketchup = disgusting.


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## NoamL (Jun 3, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> The pretzels we have here in the UK are small, savoury type things like a bag of crisps (or chips for the Americans here.)
> 
> On American TV I see these giant pretzels served by (for example) New York street vendors. What are they? Like a cake? Sweet or savoury? I’ve always wanted to know. Are they delicious?
> 
> (Not at all apologetic for going OT.)



They're rise-and-boil breads like bagels. The boiled breads are a relative of rise-and-fry breads like the donut, the churro, the Jewish sufganiya, etc. If you've had any of those then a pretzel will be similar, except more like a soft doughy bagel. It's usually got an egg or butter crust (like a Jewish challah) instead of a sugary crispy crust. And, the taste is basically just bread. Like a bagel. You can have them in other flavors though like sourdough, or coated with sesame seeds or sea salt crystals. You definitely want to eat them hot!

There's an alternative cinnamon flavor that's reasonably popular (covered with cinnamon & sugar), but who would eat a cinnamon pretzel?! That's like the people who think popcorn should have caramel


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## gregh (Jun 3, 2018)

NoamL said:


> They're rise-and-boil breads like bagels. The boiled breads are a relative of rise-and-fry breads like the donut, the churro, the Jewish sufganiya, etc. If you've had any of those then a pretzel will be similar, except more like a soft doughy bagel. It's usually got an egg or butter crust (like a Jewish challah) instead of a sugary crispy crust. And, the taste is basically just bread. Like a bagel. You can have them in other flavors though like sourdough, or coated with sesame seeds or sea salt crystals. You definitely want to eat them hot!
> 
> There's an alternative cinnamon flavor that's reasonably popular (covered with cinnamon & sugar), but who would eat a cinnamon pretzel?! That's like the people who think popcorn should have caramel


one of my favourite cinnamon and sugar coated breadlike things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kürtőskalács


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## StillLife (Jun 3, 2018)

If only we could get Pretzels for free... we sure would endure some advertising for that, won't we?

Anyway, this thread made me listen to Steely Dan's Pretzel Logic again, so that's good.


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## fiestared (Jun 3, 2018)

fretti said:


> French toast and pretzels have their origins in continental Europe and are still eaten to this day...so it's not only americans that are better in doing these things
> 
> Also: how exactly did this thread get from a Spitfire ads to food?


And we are on a public forum... otherwise, I'm certain we would have some sex, politic, cars, and even Snooker players...


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## Mornats (Jun 3, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> A deliberate derailment of sorts..
> 
> Sure, but eggy bread is served with ketchup = disgusting.



I have mine with brown sauce but I'm a northern Brit.


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## fiestared (Jun 3, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> A deliberate derailment of sorts..
> 
> Sure, but eggy bread is served with ketchup = disgusting.


"nobody" knows what French bread is in France, but, do you know what is a "capote Anglaise" ?


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## fiestared (Jun 3, 2018)

Also: how exactly did this thread get from a Spitfire ads to food?[/QUOTE]
Great ! made my day ! your post and the thread...


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## thereus (Jun 3, 2018)

While we are at it, can we ban those ads they have for films at the cinema with all the loud crashy music, please? Those are really annoying. Oh... hang on...


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## Lindon (Jun 3, 2018)

Ok, well at the risk of getting slapped here, let me chime in as a developer.

Yep - you dont like their ads? scroll down or use an ad blocker. 
Spitifire have every right to buy as much ad space as Mike will let them have. (note the caveat here..)

..and yes..

"Curse a little at the ‘advertising arms race’, perhaps even afford yourself a brief 'one eyebrow raise' indignant protest, maybe even a 'what's the modern world coming to' and a dismayed shake of the head... and then move on with your day."

..except for some of us this "arms race" actually affects us more than that.

So Spitfire - sure throw your weight around, you earned the money go spend it, make sure there is NO air space for any other developer - or a lot less at least.

However if you think this mass-blanketing approach is less than fair on every small developer, then I guess I'm in your corner. There are in fact media rules in many countries around the world about exactly this sort of big-boy behavior, and I guess it will come as no surprise that most of those rules are about limiting it. 

Mike, you've got a business to run do it any way you want, but I think 50% is a very very bad number to pick.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 3, 2018)

Lindon said:


> Ok, well at the risk of getting slapped here, let me chime in as a developer.
> 
> Yep - you dont like their ads? scroll down or use an ad blocker.
> Spitifire have every right to buy as much ad space as Mike will let them have. (note the caveat here..)
> ...



You forgot the one week time limit...


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## Lindon (Jun 3, 2018)

Puzzlefactory said:


> You forgot the one week time limit...


..do you not get the PRINCIPLE at work here?


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 3, 2018)

Lindon said:


> ..do you not get the PRINCIPLE at work here?




And I would agree if it was week in week out. But Mike said he was allowing them to buy out 50% for one week only.

If you’re going to disect and criticise the scenario, you should include ALL the details.


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## gamma-ut (Jun 3, 2018)

The thing that gets me about the OP is that it goes from annoyance to "screw you guys I'm going home" within the same post. There's not even the opportunity for anyone to redress the issue if they could be convinced of the problem. At least put in the complaint and see if something happens. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time. 

Advertisers often make dumb decisions. Because of this there are good commercial reasons as to why advertisers should be restricted on how much they buy up in one chunk even if it's more painful in the short term. Because, otherwise, it's a lot more painful in the long term. 

I'd hope that Spitfire's marketing team would see sense on this and rein it in a bit. But they do have the nasty habit of pushing things just that little bit too far.


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## gamma-ut (Jun 3, 2018)

And right on cue an email from Output arrives that confirms the dumbness of some marketing people. If you suffer from flash-triggered epilepsy, don't look at the email or set your email client to not fetch images.


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## Garry (Jun 3, 2018)

There are 2 separate issues: the OP, and the ads.

First, the OP. Re-read his post. It was hyperbolic, melodramatic and over-sensitive. In addition, you have to consider the context: the ad is for a company giving away 2 free libraries, a commitment to continue to do so on a monthly basis, and to contribute the money to charity themselves that would have otherwise been collected from user donations. In *this specific context*, his post, in addition to being hyperbolic and melodramatic, was needlessly disrespectful and antagonistic. In *this context*, he was due the derision he received by some (I unashamedly include myself).

That being said, then there's the issue of the ads themselves, and here I make a concession. The ads didn't initially bother me, and I think wouldn't have done so, but having had my attention drawn to them as a result of this thread, I find them mildly irritating (though nothing more than that, and I just scroll past it, like I think most people will do). So, I make that concession now: they are indeed mildly irritating. In addition, I make another: I don't usually visit the home page (my bookmark takes me straight to recent posts), but when I look at it now, I can see @Lindon's point, that it is highly Spitfire dominated, and that will be detrimental particularly to small developers (at least for the 1 week that Mike agreed). Since you expressed your point respectfully, I can't imagine that Mike wouldn't take that into consideration in future. That's the difference: look at the difference in how the OP expressed _his_ point; that's why yours is worth considering, and his is not.


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## kgdrum (Jun 3, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Can we talk about pretzels instead now? I think it might be more productive at this point.
> 
> The pretzels we have here in the UK are small, savoury type things like a bag of crisps (or chips for the Americans here.)
> 
> ...




As someone who likes a traditional pretzel imo the typical NY pretzel actually sucks, it's a tasteless bread like substance.The N Y street pretzel for me is only saved by adding generous amounts of mustard.
BTW..... given the choice I prefer the Spitfires ad over a NY pretzel any day of the week!


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## Mike Greene (Jun 3, 2018)

Lindon said:


> Ok, well at the risk of getting slapped here, let me chime in as a developer.
> 
> Yep - you dont like their ads? scroll down or use an ad blocker.
> Spitifire have every right to buy as much ad space as Mike will let them have. (note the caveat here..)
> ...


You bring up valid points, but what does this have to do with pretzels?

Just kidding. There are a whole bunch of things regarding advertising in general that I'm considering, so I'm open to input. I'll probably have a discussion this summer with advertisers about all that, but for now, just to clarify regarding Spitfire throwing their weight around:

Other than this week, Spitfire's banner ads run at the same frequency as the smallest developer's ads. They're in the same 35 company rotation that everyone else is in. There are two companies who do buy double ad placements so that they show up twice as often (even twice as often as Spitfire), but those are small companies.

One other company also did the 50% "forum takeover." That was a small company, and their thinking was, _"We would only need to sell x copies of zzz to pay for an ad blitz, so lets do it." _ That math is the same for a big company or a small company, so I think the playing field is pretty level.


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## Daniel James (Jun 4, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> You bring up valid points, but what does this have to do with pretzels?
> 
> Just kidding. There are a whole bunch of thingsregarding advertising in general that I'm considering, so I'm open to input. I'll probably have a discussion this summer with advertisers about all that, but for now, just to clarify regarding Spitfire throwing their weight around:
> 
> ...



I have Adblock on for this site now and I still get this. It's a bit much. Regardless of who it is, it's obnoxious.







With LABS no longer being a charity project and just a way to drive people to the Spitfire site, I think there should be a cap on how many times you see the same thing again and again. Particually when its flashing with seizure inducing speed.

-DJ


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## NoamL (Jun 4, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> (and maybe in the long run an attempt to disrupt the lower end market so that people start with free spitfire libraries, then once they progress in their career they will already have them as part of the Spitfire eco system (You can tell these guys really paid attention in marketing school))



Nothing really new there, though, right?

Years ago I started out with PLAY libraries because EastWest did a sweet "Composer's Collection" deal for students where they let you define a bundle of 7 libraries & pay half price for everything.

These days, EastWest's Composer Cloud is an even better deal for newbies.

Everyone (that has the ability to do it without taking huge losses) is trying to target the "My first VI" market because that's where a lot of the money is right now. The rest of us have the tools we need.


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## Daniel James (Jun 4, 2018)

Nevermind.

-DJ


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## CT (Jun 4, 2018)

Oh my god... if this is going to be another one of *those* threads, I might have to follow OP and just be done with VI-Control, seriously.


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## robgb (Jun 4, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I have Adblock on for this site now and I still get this. It's a bit much. Regardless of who it is, it's obnoxious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you have adblock, all you have to do is right click on the ad you want to block and you'll get a choice to block that specific section of the website. That's how I did it with the side banner and the top banners. It takes seconds and those annoying flashing signs are gone.



Daniel James said:


> You can tell these guys really paid attention in marketing school)



I'm pretty sure their marketing guy was just made CEO of the company or something like that. So get ready for more.


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## Daniel James (Jun 4, 2018)

robgb said:


> If you have adblock, all you have to do is right click on the ad you want to block and you'll get a choice to block that specific section of the website. That's how I did it with the side banner and the top banners. It takes seconds and those annoying flashing signs are gone.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure their marketing guy was just made CEO of the company or something like that. So get ready for more.



You legend!

-DJ


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## robgb (Jun 4, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> You legend!


In my own mind.


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## NoamL (Jun 4, 2018)

miket said:


> Oh my god... if this is going to be another one of *those* threads, I might have to follow OP and just be done with VI-Control, seriously.



Back to pretzels, then?

My favorite kind of bread to make is za'atar focaccia. It's sort of a mix between Lebanese and Tunisian influences. Normally focaccia is a same-day bread cuz it only takes 2 hours to rise. But I like to make a dough starter (technically called a poolish) which goes in the fridge the night before. This gives it more of a savory taste about halfway between sourdough and normal white bread. When the dough goes in the pan, I sprinkle it with asiago or pecorino romano, and then a HEALTHY sprinkling of za'atar, finally brush with olive oil. Comes out golden brown and tastes super herby, cheesy and delicious!


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## Puzzlefactory (Jun 5, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I have Adblock on for this site now and I still get this. It's a bit much. Regardless of who it is, it's obnoxious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is a limit. 

50% of the ads for one week.


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## Jaap (Jun 5, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Back to pretzels, then?
> 
> My favorite kind of bread to make is za'atar focaccia. It's sort of a mix between Lebanese and Tunisian influences. Normally focaccia is a same-day bread cuz it only takes 2 hours to rise. But I like to make a dough starter (technically called a poolish) which goes in the fridge the night before. This gives it more of a savory taste about halfway between sourdough and normal white bread. When the dough goes in the pan, I sprinkle it with asiago or pecorino romano, and then a HEALTHY sprinkling of za'atar, finally brush with olive oil. Comes out golden brown and tastes super herby, cheesy and delicious!


 
Oh yeah! Za’atar, now we are talking!


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 5, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Back to pretzels, then?
> 
> My favorite kind of bread to make is za'atar focaccia. It's sort of a mix between Lebanese and Tunisian influences. Normally focaccia is a same-day bread cuz it only takes 2 hours to rise. But I like to make a dough starter (technically called a poolish) which goes in the fridge the night before. This gives it more of a savory taste about halfway between sourdough and normal white bread. When the dough goes in the pan, I sprinkle it with asiago or pecorino romano, and then a HEALTHY sprinkling of za'atar, finally brush with olive oil. Comes out golden brown and tastes super herby, cheesy and delicious!


That sounds amazing! Can we have a walkthrough video?


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## Lindon (Jun 5, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> That sounds amazing! Can we have a walkthrough video?


Yeah +1 - we want more bread related instructions here...


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## NoamL (Jun 5, 2018)

Jaap said:


> Oh yeah! Za’atar, now we are talking!



It has become a fad food over here in the past 1 or 2 years - before that nobody in the States had ever heard of it! Just like pomegranates used to be relatively unknown here as little as 10-15 years ago.



Alex Fraser said:


> That sounds amazing! Can we have a walkthrough video?



I use the recipe in _The Bread Baker's Apprentice_ by Peter Reinhart. For za'atar you can get it from any Middle Eastern (Persian etc.) grocery. Bread is easy when you follow the recipe, the three major rules are 1) measure by weight, not volume, 2) don't add things to the dough while it's rising, 3) always proof yeast before you use it.

edit: I forgot! 4) never use bleached flour, always unbleached

and 5) time is flavor. Breads that go from flour bag to oven in 2-3 hours can't be expected to taste great. They will be bland and flour-y. Breads that use a fermented starter or overnight pre-ferment will taste more aromatic and bready. HOWEVER If you ferment too large a fraction of the dough, or for too long, the dough will turn sour (like sourdough or worse). Therefore play it on the safe side when you're doing recipes the first few times. First bake is for following the recipe then experiment later.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 5, 2018)

NoamL said:


> It has become a fad food over here in the past 1 or 2 years - before that nobody in the States had ever heard of it! Just like pomegranates used to be relatively unknown here as little as 10-15 years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have genuinely just saved this text to my notes app. Brill tips.
In the UK, we have this "thing" which comes around once in a while: A friend will turn up at your house with some sourdough "starter dough." The idea is that you make some bread with it and pass some of the dough onto the next person. Or something like that. I've always been dubious and put the dough in the bin...


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## Mornats (Jun 5, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Have genuinely just saved this text to my notes app. Brill tips.
> In the UK, we have this "thing" which comes around once in a while: A friend will turn up at your house with some sourdough "starter dough." The idea is that you make some bread with it and pass some of the dough onto the next person. Or something like that. I've always been dubious and put the dough in the bin...



That may be regional as I've not heard of that. (Northumberland born and raised, and lived in the west midlands and now Bristol.)


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## Tfis (Jun 5, 2018)




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## Garry (Jun 5, 2018)

Tfis said:


>


I totally disagree with the premise of this thread. But man, that was funny!!


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## Jaap (Jun 5, 2018)

NoamL said:


> It has become a fad food over here in the past 1 or 2 years - before that nobody in the States had ever heard of it! Just like pomegranates used to be relatively unknown here as little as 10-15 years ago.



That's good that it is out there now then! Been using it for so many years and just loving it to use it in so many different things.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 5, 2018)

Garry said:


> I totally disagree with the premise of this thread. But man, that was funny!!


Why? What have you got against Pretzels, bread history and baking? 

Edit: So clearly we've derailed this thread, so all that's left to do is:






(sorry.)


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## Michel Simons (Jun 5, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> Why? What have you got against Pretzels, bread history and baking?
> 
> Edit: So clearly we've derailed this thread, so all that's left to do is:
> 
> ...



But what are the Pretzel controls for?? It could do with a label or two.


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## ghobii (Jun 5, 2018)

Waiting for someone to make the suggestion for a bread subforum.


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## NoamL (Jun 5, 2018)

YeastWest Quantum Loaf


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 5, 2018)

I'm disappointed our conversation about baked goods didn't make it into Mike's threads of the week.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 5, 2018)

NoamL said:


> YeastWest Quantum Loaf


AudioDough.


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## JonAdamich (Jun 5, 2018)

mouse said:


> People get upset about the most hilarious things here. I can't imagine any other forum on the internet that would get so annoyed about a flashing banner ad. Especially when its for amazing free software.


Same. It blows my mind with this forum.


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## kgdrum (Jun 5, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Back to pretzels, then?
> 
> My favorite kind of bread to make is za'atar focaccia. It's sort of a mix between Lebanese and Tunisian influences. Normally focaccia is a same-day bread cuz it only takes 2 hours to rise. But I like to make a dough starter (technically called a poolish) which goes in the fridge the night before. This gives it more of a savory taste about halfway between sourdough and normal white bread. When the dough goes in the pan, I sprinkle it with asiago or pecorino romano, and then a HEALTHY sprinkling of za'atar, finally brush with olive oil. Comes out golden brown and tastes super herby, cheesy and delicious!




Please send me a dozen!


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## kgdrum (Jun 5, 2018)

ghobii said:


> Waiting for someone to make the suggestion for a bread subforum.




No,no,no that would be too much bread,I think we need a dedicated pretzel forum, we all know pretzels are the perfect snack for the time we will be spending in Chillbot's desk forum!


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## lucianogiacomozzi (Jun 5, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> AudioDough.



Bread Room Audio


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## Mornats (Jun 5, 2018)

8Dough


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## CT (Jun 5, 2018)

Cinebon


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## lucianogiacomozzi (Jun 5, 2018)

SoundPieon​


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 5, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> (snip)
> its flashing with seizure inducing speed.


If this is true, it's a valid concern. Speaking as someone who has loved ones who are vulnerable to seizures, I decided to search the web.

According to the article linked to below, _"For about 3% of people with epilepsy, exposure to flashing lights at certain intensities or to certain visual patterns can trigger seizures. The frequency or speed of flashing light that is most likely to cause seizures varies from person to person. Generally, flashing lights most likely to trigger seizures are between the frequency of 5 to 30 flashes per second (Hertz)."_

The Spitfire ad in question appears to be just below—or at the very bottom of—that range. It seems fair to conclude that it's improbable—but not impossible—for that ad to induce seizures. Do with that info what you will.

More here:

Epilepsy Foundation | Photosensitivity and Seizures

I hadn't realized that a flash that slow could induce a seizure, unlikely though it may be. Thanks, @Daniel James for the heads up.

Best,

Geoff


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## Garry (Jun 5, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> If this is true, it's a valid concern. Speaking as someone who has loved ones who are vulnerable to seizures, I decided to search the web.
> 
> According to the article linked to below, _"For about 3% of people with epilepsy, exposure to flashing lights at certain intensities or to certain visual patterns can trigger seizures. The frequency or speed of flashing light that is most likely to cause seizures varies from person to person. Generally, flashing lights most likely to trigger seizures are between the frequency of 5 to 30 flashes per second (Hertz)."_
> 
> ...


If you have that level of photosensitivity as to induce seizures on such limited exposure and at such a low frequency range, and are using the internet without any form of ad blocker (at an absolute minimum, indeed see the website you refer to for multiple other tips that such people would presumably be routinely taking), then you might as well walk into a nightclub, and condemn their use of lights and lasers!

I hear Spitfire's libraries can also damage sensitive hearing if you turn your speakers up to maximum volume! Damn you Spitfire!


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Jun 5, 2018)

At least we can be certain the room sound is *baked in*


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## Mike Greene (Jun 5, 2018)

I've cut down the speed of the frame changes to 1 second each. If that's still a problem, take a break for two days and come back Friday morning.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jun 5, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> I've cut down the speed of the frame changes to 1 second each. If that's still a problem, take a break for two days and come back Friday morning.


This new frame rate is actually really nice — as are the free products they are paying to advertise!


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## Mike Greene (Jun 5, 2018)

Come on guys, a little self-awareness, maybe? I'm moving the ad-block tutorials and discussion to a separate thread in the Drama Zone.


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## Daniel James (Jun 5, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Come on guys, a little self-awareness, maybe? I'm moving the ad-block tutorials and discussion to a separate thread in the Drama Zone.



In our defence we were discussing how to block specific ads so we can still see the ones we like....like the ones that don't induce seizures xD

-DJ


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## Jaap (Jun 6, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> take a break for two days and come back Friday morning.



But what if Noam turns up again with an amazing Pretzel recipe?


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 7, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> In our defence we were discussing how to block specific ads so we can still see the ones we like....like the ones that don't induce seizures xD
> 
> -DJ


 
Did you get the email from Output regarding a new product launch on June 12th ? Now that was really bad - I cannot believe they let that one out....

I'd post the image, but there's a good chance we could lose a couple of forum members...


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## lucianogiacomozzi (Jun 8, 2018)

All back to normal now


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## NoamL (Jun 10, 2018)

Jaap said:


> But what if Noam turns up again with an amazing Pretzel recipe?



No pretzels today @Jaap, but I did make my Surprise Attack Pesto 

I like to make it with Walnuts & Gruyere instead of Pine Nuts & Parmesan. It's cheaper and also tastes less salty and cheesy, with more emphasis on the basil. But the most important thing is... fresh jalapeno chiles  that's the surprise attack ingredient!

Once I figured out how easy it is to make (and it keeps for up to a week if you keep it covered with olive oil) I never bought store pesto again.


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 11, 2018)

NoamL said:


> No pretzels today @Jaap, but I did make my Surprise Attack Pesto
> 
> I like to make it with Walnuts & Gruyere instead of Pine Nuts & Parmesan. It's cheaper and also tastes less salty and cheesy, with more emphasis on the basil. But the most important thing is... fresh jalapeno chiles  that's the surprise attack ingredient!
> 
> Once I figured out how easy it is to make (and it keeps for up to a week if you keep it covered with olive oil) I never bought store pesto again.


All jokes aside, it would be awesome if you started a thread with weekly cooking updates in the off topic area. I’d sub to that!


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## Mornats (Jun 11, 2018)

I quite like the cookery-bombing of threads like this to be honest


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## Jaap (Jun 11, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> All jokes aside, it would be awesome if you started a thread with weekly cooking updates in the off topic area. I’d sub to that!



Yes me too! Lovely Noam!


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## Jaap (Jun 11, 2018)

As the zuccini and lettuce in my garden is growing in size like a Spitfire library I decided to make an oven dish with stuffed lettuce filled with sweet potato, zuccini and of course zuccini flower with some garlic, cheese (a nice light vegan cheese with a slightly salty touch to it) and leftover from the filling.

Edit: end result looks better


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## PaulBrimstone (Jun 11, 2018)

[QUOTE="

Edit: end result looks better 

[/QUOTE]

I hope so. A giant sperm appears to be escaping the plate 

This thread has improved immensely. Go vegans!


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## mc_deli (Jun 11, 2018)

Mornats said:


> 8Dough


fääääk you win the interwebs


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## mc_deli (Jun 11, 2018)

Well done Mike for the replies but OMG there is so much sh**** on VI-c again.


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## NoamL (Jun 11, 2018)

Delicious!


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## Alex Fraser (Jun 11, 2018)

Does anyone have a good guacamole recipe they may care to share?


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## robgb (Jun 11, 2018)

mouse said:


> People get upset about the most hilarious things here. I can't imagine any other forum on the internet that would get so annoyed about a flashing banner ad. Especially when its for amazing free software.


The truly amazing free software is Red Room's Palette Primary Colors. And I didn't see any flashing ads.


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