# SINE player



## bill5 (Sep 25, 2021)

Wow I hate this thing. Sorry to those who like it, but ugh. I have never liked the plugins within a plugin thing anyway, but SINE makes me yearn for Kontakt, and I never dreamed I'd type those words. For starters, for the love of God let me just download my OT plugins directly from the site, not have to jump through hoops through this thing. Second, the downloader sucks anyway; downloads at a slower rate than I normally have and twice already it's told me "your computer is offline" when it's not. Third, after that happened, now I can't get back to the place where it shows me how far along the download is, so I've no idea. Fourth, get rid of the stupid "Store" option. If I want to shop, why would I want to do it within a sample player? 

Now that's all before even actually using it as a sample player yet. I hope it shines there or OT may have lost a future customer.


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## KEM (Sep 25, 2021)

I love SINE and don’t have any issues with it, it does everything that Kontakt doesn’t and I think it’s far superior


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## bill5 (Sep 25, 2021)

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, although it baffles me. Glad you aren't having any issues! What does it do that Kontakt doesn't, other than being resizable (which I do give props for)?


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## KEM (Sep 25, 2021)

bill5 said:


> You're certainly entitled to your opinion, although it baffles me. Glad you aren't having any issues! What does it do that Kontakt doesn't, other than being resizable (which I do give props for)?



For me the absolute best thing about SINE is how it automatically assigns the MIDI channels and outputs in sequential order, Kontakt doesn’t do that so it can be a complete pain to try and route everything properly, and whenever I try to add more outputs they don’t even work. I use a VEP template and with SINE I have can as many midi channels and outputs in one VEP instance without any glitches, where as Kontakt I can’t have more than 16, if I add more they don’t work at all


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## Vovique (Sep 26, 2021)

I don't like it at all, keep downloading free OT gifts but never use them because of SINE


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## zimm83 (Sep 26, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Wow I hate this thing. Sorry to those who like it, but ugh. I have never liked the plugins within a plugin thing anyway, but SINE makes me yearn for Kontakt, and I never dreamed I'd type those words. For starters, for the love of God let me just download my OT plugins directly from the site, not have to jump through hoops through this thing. Second, the downloader sucks anyway; downloads at a slower rate than I normally have and twice already it's told me "your computer is offline" when it's not. Third, after that happened, now I can't get back to the place where it shows me how far along the download is, so I've no idea. Fourth, get rid of the stupid "Store" option. If I want to shop, why would I want to do it within a sample player?
> 
> Now that's all before even actually using it as a sample player yet. I hope it shines there or OT may have lost a future customer.


+1.


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## Tren (Sep 26, 2021)

bill5 said:


> You're certainly entitled to your opinion, although it baffles me. Glad you aren't having any issues! What does it do that Kontakt doesn't, other than being resizable (which I do give props for)?


Kontakt is resizable. The issue with Kontakt is that it doesn't scale. The UI is perpetually tiny, no matter how big the window is made.


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## Casiquire (Sep 26, 2021)

I'm not too crazy about SINE and find it unintuitive, but it does everything i need it to do fairly easily. I wouldn't say it's worse than Kontakt. The huge benefit with Kontakt isn't that it's so well laid out (it isn't) but that developers have gone out of their way to individually make their libraries easy. Kontakt itself, if anything, gets in the way. Why can't i put all my libraries into the Library list, for example? And let's not even get started on setting up multiple outputs. Who on earth designed that. So yeah i do have issues with SINE and if you see a word map of my past comments about it the largest words would probably be "baffling" and "unintuitive", but i like it more than Play, less than Synchron, and the extent to which i like it less than Kontakt has nothing to actually do with Kontakt.

I had some struggles with installing libraries too and realized my SINE install was faulty. I uninstalled and reinstalled and things worked just fine from there. Once you're up and running give it some time to get used to using it and let us know if it's any better in practice for you. I do expect to see some good updates in the future to make the experience better too, especially now that they have a guaranteed stream of even more users they need to please over at Berklee


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## Loerpert (Sep 26, 2021)

I love SINE player. Haven't had any issues with it, rather than being slow sometimes when it's trying to connect to the web. Anything is better than the ancient, non-scalable Kontakt interface in my opinion. Well, luckily we can all have our own opinions


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## Mikay (Sep 26, 2021)

Sometimes I notice that a sine instrument stopped anything and I don't know why. And sometimes it keeps playing a sample even after stopping the music. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but it would be nice if at least the stop button in the DAW would make the sound go away. But it doesn't.​


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 26, 2021)

bill5 said:


> You're certainly entitled to your opinion, although it baffles me. Glad you aren't having any issues! What does it do that Kontakt doesn't, other than being resizable (which I do give props for)?


The mic merge feature is a lot more useful for orchestral samples than a wavetable synth. 

And in general much better on system resources, disk, ram, and CPU wise because it's not running a bunch of bloat to be a flexible rompler. 

There are still features that exist on the capsule versions of these instruments, but for me - sound quality >>> anything else, and having my own customized mic mixes both sounds better and frees up more ram so I can use more mics on non sine products.


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## Peter Williams (Sep 26, 2021)

I prefer being able to easily tweak my preset effects in Kontact, but Sine has improved over time: at least it runs more reliably than before, and I can alter most parameters in my DAW.


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## bill5 (Sep 26, 2021)

Tren said:


> Kontakt is resizable. The issue with Kontakt is that it doesn't scale. The UI is perpetually tiny, no matter how big the window is made.


? It's neither. "Scalable" is what I really meant, but it's neither.


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## tc9000 (Sep 26, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> And in general much better on system resources, disk, ram, and CPU wise because it's not running a bunch of bloat to be a flexible rompler.


This. I *love* kontakt (and capsule too) - I couldent see any benefits I could get from Sine. I picked up Berlin Orchestra and have been playing with some small templates - the Sine instances load almost instantaneously. Shockingly fast. (To be fair that's partly due to the small RAM footprint!) Also seems pretty easy to use so far.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 26, 2021)

tc9000 said:


> This. I *love* kontakt (and capsule too) - I couldent see any benefits I could get from Sine. I picked up Berlin Orchestra and have been playing with some small templates - the Sine instances load almost instantaneously. Shockingly fast. (To be fair that's partly due to the small RAM footprint!) Also seems pretty easy to use so far.


Well comparing the same libraries (ark 1 and 2) loaded in Kontakt vs sine is night and day.

It's even less space on the hard drive


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## daviddln (Sep 26, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Wow I hate this thing. Sorry to those who like it, but ugh. I have never liked the plugins within a plugin thing anyway, but SINE makes me yearn for Kontakt, and I never dreamed I'd type those words. For starters, for the love of God let me just download my OT plugins directly from the site, not have to jump through hoops through this thing. Second, the downloader sucks anyway; downloads at a slower rate than I normally have and twice already it's told me "your computer is offline" when it's not. Third, after that happened, now I can't get back to the place where it shows me how far along the download is, so I've no idea. Fourth, get rid of the stupid "Store" option. If I want to shop, why would I want to do it within a sample player?
> 
> Now that's all before even actually using it as a sample player yet. I hope it shines there or OT may have lost a future customer.


Yes, it takes a lot of time to download libraries. And it's much faster to load an instrument in Kontakt. It takes me almost 50 seconds to load an instrument from Berlin Symphonic Strings in SINE. And most of the major developers offer mix mics for their most important libraries. OT doesn't do that and we haave to do it ourselves with the "merge mics" option and it doesn't even work. It's been 10 months and we still can't merge mics for BSS. And the SINE Player hasn't been updated for months. So it's definitely not the greatest sample player on the market.


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## AEF (Sep 26, 2021)

SINE crashed Cubase 11 AND DP 11 yesterday for me. 

OT has gone from my top developer to a company that I no longer have any trust in.


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## Geomir (Sep 26, 2021)

First, well done for the title of this Thread, which is neutral. Excellent decision imho.

I dislike a small part of Sine Player, that no one seems to be bothered about, and this is the fact that you see knobs, but not their current values. After using Kontakt Player, Synchron Player, Spitfire Player, UVI Workstation, Halion Sonic SE3, even ARIA Player, which all of them include the values, I still can't believe that you can't see any numbers on the knobs.

Maybe there is an option to reveal the numbers through the options? I mean, if I want to add +1.5dB to an instrument volume, or pan it 25L, do I have to guess how much I am supposed to move the knob? Am I missing something?


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## KassBot (Sep 26, 2021)

Well, if the biggest issue with a player is that there's a store tab and that the downloader is janky then i would say that it's probably a decent player. 
I'm new to SINE. Just bought Tallinn so i'm trying to learn the player aswell, and overall i think it's pretty solid. It's just different, and people don't like different cause you have to relearn a bunch of things. I think it's good that they at least are trying new things. 
SINE does some things better than Kontakt i think - speed, mic and articulation merging in perticular for me. And Kontakt does other things better. In the end, it's better for all if there's some competition


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## jbuhler (Sep 26, 2021)

Geomir said:


> First, well done for the title of this Thread, which is neutral. Excellent decision imho.
> 
> I dislike a small part of Sine Player, that no one seems to be bothered about, and this is the fact that you see knobs, but not their current values. After using Kontakt Player, Synchron Player, Spitfire Player, UVI Workstation, Halion Sonic SE3, even ARIA Player, which all of them include the values, I still can't believe that you can't see any numbers on the knobs.
> 
> Maybe there is an option to reveal the numbers through the options? I mean, if I want to add +1.5dB to an instrument volume, or pan it 25L, do I have to guess how much I am supposed to move the knob? Am I missing something?


Yes, the lack of feedback in the GUI with respect to CC settings is also irritating and can make diagnosing issues harder to do than should be the case.


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## Virtuoso (Sep 26, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> The mic merge feature is a lot more useful for orchestral samples than a wavetable synth.


BSS? We’re into the 10th month now and still no fix.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 26, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> BSS? We’re into the 10th month now and still no fix.


There is (one) product that the problem occured, but it works on literally everything else


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## LamaRose (Sep 26, 2021)

bill5 said:


> For starters, for the love of God let me just download my OT plugins directly from the site, not have to jump through hoops through this thing. Second, the downloader sucks anyway...


Paging Native Access.


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## jbuhler (Sep 26, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> There is (one) product that the problem occured, but it works on literally everything else


There are also a lot of minor legato issues and other bugs that were reported back in January, prior to the one early update, and they have still not been fixed.


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## bill5 (Sep 26, 2021)

LamaRose said:


> Paging Native Access.


Can't stand that thing either


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> There are also a lot of minor legato issues and other bugs that were reported back in January, prior to the one early update, and they have still not been fixed.


I don't disagree, but acting like a feature doesn't work because exactly 1 product has an issue is simply absurd. 

Kontakt breaks libraries almost Everytime it updates, in comparison


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## jbuhler (Sep 26, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I don't disagree, but acting like a feature doesn't work because exactly 1 product has an issue is simply absurd.
> 
> Kontakt breaks libraries almost Everytime it updates, in comparison


I agree. I also don't see the missing mic merge as especially bothersome, and am far more irritated that the various reported bugs in BSS haven't been quashed.

But none of it is mission critical.


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## daviddln (Sep 26, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> There is (one) product that the problem occured, but it works on literally everything else


Yes, but it's the library that uses the most RAM. More than 3 GB just for the tree and close mics (Cellos). But they prefer to release new libraries rather than fixing existing ones. That's not serious.


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## Virtuoso (Sep 26, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> There is (one) product that the problem occured, but it works on literally everything else


10 months without a SINE update though and users of the $650 library are still SOL if they use that feature. Does that give you confidence in the platform and developer or do you think 10 months is reasonable for a _very obvious day one bug that any tester should have spotted_?

I'm sure you're sick of hearing about it because it doesn't affect YOU personally, but it affects others. You'll stop hearing about it if they ever get around to fixing it.

10 months.

It would also take them 2 minutes to add a line on the product page that says "*Mic merge not currently functional" but you will find no such statement. The only way you're going to find out is after you download it, which then means you've given up your right to a refund, or by reading it on a forum. What does that tell you about the developer?


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 26, 2021)

daviddln said:


> Yes, but it's the library that uses the most RAM. More than 3 GB just for the tree and close mics (Cellos). But they prefer to release new libraries rather than fixing existing ones. That's not serious.


Well consider the alternative: if it was an easy problem fix, they would have rolled it out. My guess is it's something that'll cause a lot of manual fixing that they didn't have the time/workforce budgeted for... Doesn't mean it's not getting worked on, just means they can't halt their entire production schedule to divert their resources to fix it at the speed some people would want it. (side note, 3gb

I think if it made the library unusable they'd probably be more frantic about getting it fixed, but as it stands it just doesn't make sense to be high on their priorities. Infact I'd wager if they sent a poll to all of their customers and they said "we've got 1 team, which would you rather see first; Berlin Symphonic strings mic merge fixed, or instead spend that time working on the port of the berlin main series to SINE" it would overwhelmingly be the latter.


Virtuoso said:


> 10 months without a SINE update though and users of the $650 library are still SOL if they use that feature. Does that give you confidence in the platform and developer or do you think 10 months is reasonable for a _very obvious day one bug that any tester should have spotted_?


The beta testers are going to be composers on this forum, people who make music and are somewhat tech savvy... and like many users of SINE instruments, some of them might not be focused on making mic mixes, or even think to see if that library would be different than every other one on the sine player... I know I've bought every creative pack and 0 times have I thought to "test mic merging". That said, it didn't take 10 months for them to "spot" the problem - it's just taken that long to be fixed. Again, a problem that while inconvenient doesn't stop anyone from using the library - considering no other developer on the planet has the feature that's not working implemented in their string libraries either.



Virtuoso said:


> I'm sure you're sick of hearing about it because it doesn't affect YOU personally, but it affects others. You'll stop hearing about it if they ever get around to fixing it.


Plot twist: I'm actually not using it because there's no merge - and berlin strings main isn't on sine, so I simply can't budget the extra ram for it - and I'm not replacing berlin strings main for it. So it actually does effect me personally. It's more or less just a matter of being in no rush, combined with the fact that I'd rather just wait until merge is fixed. 



Virtuoso said:


> It would also take them 2 minutes to add a line on the product page that says "*Mic merge not currently functional" but you will find no such statement. The only way you're going to find out is after you download it, which then means you've given up your right to a refund, or by reading it on a forum. What does that tell you about the developer?


While I agree having the website reflect it would be an easy enough thing to accomplish - if you know about orchestral tools libraries it would be absolutely MENTAL if you didn't participate on atleast ONE of these forums. There's only a handful - we're actually in a thread right now where people are talking about products, and you making a big deal about it is ironically because you know anyone who buys these things is probably on this forum reading about it. People who don't visit these forums are probably buying KOMPLETE ULTIMATE thinking it'll be the magical software orchestra of the future, not buying high end and much more obscure libraries like orchestral tools. The original action strings NI video has 844k views - the only berlin symphonic strings video to break 10k views is the walkthrough at a whopping 36k. And the second they land on one of these forums - someone will undoubtedly bring up CSS which has private reviewers who's views are more than BSS' total views combined. 

as far as it not being fixed yet, these companies have to plan and budget FAR in advance... booking musicians/venues/sessions/investor meetings/ect - production of libraries is planned a long time out... things like covid happened and derailed and delayed a lot of things... when you have a ton of money sunk into having these libraries recorded there's not going to be a chance anyone with any business sense is going to explain to their investors that they halted their production schedule because of a difficult to fix issue that doesn't render a library any less function than their entire competition. That's just the reality of it. Would be like shutting down a restraunt until bacon comes in because you can't make the BLT sandwhiches because you found out the box of bacon you ordered was turkey bacon. Most people dont care and they'll eat turkey bacon... the ones that really have a problem with it will leave a bad yelp review and leave - the entire rest of the people waiting for their food would be furious because they didn't even order anything with bacon on it. (what% of OT's customers do you think even own BSS after all?)

Just another reminder - I'm giving you this PoV as someone who's never gotten a thing from OT, who's never written a demo for OT, who's never beta tested for OT, and I'm not any sort of developer or sample salesman - just someone who's grateful we have these tools in the first place, and I have some business sense. It's just speculation, and I could be 100% wrong - but I'm probably not.


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## Virtuoso (Sep 26, 2021)

I really don't know why people go out of their way to make excuses for OT. I only have JXL and BSS but my experience with them has been very negative. They don't seem to test their products well, they don't fix issues in any kind of timeframe a normal person would consider reasonable and they don't stand by their products. No integrity.

In addition to the Mic Merge issue, none of the bugs I reported back in December and again in March (following the meagre update) with BSS have been fixed. None. Examples attached - bonus pizzicato behind transitions, very dodgy legato, bonus octaves etc. Very sloppy and all found within a few minutes of just, you know, _playing the fucking instrument_! Do their testers, whether internal or external, not do that? I've found plenty more since but what's the point reporting them? They just don't seem to give a shit.

View attachment Total BSS.mp3


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## bill5 (Sep 26, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Well consider the alternative: if it was an easy problem fix, they would have rolled it out.


Even if it's a hard fix, 10 months is pretty ridiculous, even if it's not their "top" priority. Clearly they've bumped it way down the list.



> While I agree having the website reflect it would be an easy enough thing to accomplish - if you know about orchestral tools libraries it would be absolutely MENTAL if you didn't participate on atleast ONE of these forums.


? That doesn't have anything to do with updating the web site...but for the most part, it seems most music companies don't put known bugs or issues with their product on the web site. That doesn't make it right, just an observation. Certainly someone shouldn't have to go here to find that info.

As for "oh they have other stuff to do like hiring musicians etc etc" that is IMO just making excuses. They should have dedicated people/time put into making everything actually WORKS. And I don't think your restaurant analogy is valid tbh. IMO it's more like going to a restaurant and asking for water and they go "sorry no can do, plumbing is on the fritz...but hey how about trying this amazing salad and dessert bar we just built? Oooh so fancy!"


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## Virtuoso (Sep 26, 2021)

bill5 said:


> IMO it's more like going to a restaurant and asking for water and they go "sorry no can do, plumbing is on the fritz...but hey how about trying this amazing salad and dessert bar we just built? Oooh so fancy!"


How about a restaurant with an amazing menu, where they don't even let you through the door before you pay upfront for your entire meal and agree to waive all your consumer rights.

You order chicken pot pie. When you cut into it, there's no chicken and the vegetables are full of worms. You complain, but they tell you there's a no refund policy once you've cut into the pie and anyway, you already waived all your rights.

You go to Yelp to complain and let others know in case they make the same mistake, but a bunch of vegetarians pile on and try to bully you for complaining about the missing chicken.


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## Fidelity (Sep 26, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> How about a restaurant with an amazing menu, where they don't even let you through the door before you pay upfront for your entire meal and agree to waive all your consumer rights.
> 
> You order chicken pot pie. When you cut into it, there's no chicken and the vegetables are full of worms. You complain, but they tell you there's a no refund policy once you've cut into the pie and anyway, you already waived all your rights.
> 
> You go to Yelp to complain and let others know in case they make the same mistake, but a bunch of vegetarians pile on and try to bully you for complaining about the missing chicken.


Whoa now. Amazing menu, chicken pot pie? I think I've found the problem.


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## bill5 (Sep 26, 2021)

What've you got against chicken pot pie mister? You a commie??


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## Fidelity (Sep 26, 2021)

bill5 said:


> What've you got against chicken pot pie mister? You a commie??


You caught me. I'm one of those evil vegetarians he mentioned. Hail Seitan.


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## Virtuoso (Sep 26, 2021)

Fidelity said:


> Whoa now. Amazing menu, chicken pot pie? I think I've found the problem.


https://gourmettraveller.wordpress.com/2010/04/16/thomas-kellers-chicken-pot-pie/


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## bill5 (Sep 26, 2021)

Well see, you should've mentioned Thomas Keller. I was thinkin Marie Callender.


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## daviddln (Sep 26, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> I really don't know why people go out of their way to make excuses for OT. I only have JXL and BSS but my experience with them has been very negative. They don't seem to test their products well, they don't fix issues in any kind of timeframe a normal person would consider reasonable and they don't stand by their products. No integrity.
> 
> In addition to the Mic Merge issue, none of the bugs I reported back in December and again in March (following the meagre update) with BSS have been fixed. None. Examples attached - bonus pizzicato behind transitions, very dodgy legato, bonus octaves etc. Very sloppy and all found within a few minutes of just, you know, _playing the fucking instrument_! Do their testers, whether internal or external, not do that? I've found plenty more since but what's the point reporting them? They just don't seem to give a shit.
> 
> View attachment Total BSS.mp3


And not to mention all the tuning issues in Berlin Orchestra. It's as if nobody at OT has played with the library. It took me two minutes to find some of these bugs. But I guess there won't be an update either.


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## novaburst (Sep 27, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> And in general much better on system resources, disk, ram, and CPU wise because it's not running a bunch of bloat to be a flexible rompler.


This is one of the most important signs of up to date software is efficiency and low power usage,while features are a good thing, yes we all like them but power consumption is key, and can not be over looked but it is proof that a lot of development went into Sine,

I think this is what made AMD a big hit over Intel, is achieving higher clock speeds but with lesser power consumption or getting more by using less, this is true development, and not just a lot of empty knobs and pointless tweaks, and a new name and number.

Mic merge fail seems not to effect every one especially with work around,


ProfoundSilence said:


> The mic merge feature is a lot more useful for orchestral samples


Can really make a big difference to texture and sound,tone, and again plays a good role in power usage,

But all in all its efficiency that is the future because we already have a ton of features in our software from developer to developer, some very clever, and some just a nice look and pretty colours, some it did exactly the same thing as the old version but just highlighted differently,


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## Virtuoso (Oct 6, 2021)

After a mere 293 days, SINE 1.0.6 is out and the Mic Merge issue is finally fixed - it also has multi core support, which works really well on my Mac Pro. 

Hopefully they can now turn their attention to all the BSS library bugs!


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## Casiquire (Oct 6, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> After a mere 293 days, SINE 1.0.6 is out and the Mic Merge issue is finally fixed - it also has multi core support, which works really well on my Mac Pro.
> 
> Hopefully they can now turn their attention to all the BSS library bugs!


That's great news! Is there a log of fixes and improvements? I'm curious if there's new functionality.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Oct 6, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> That's great news! Is there a log of fixes and improvements? I'm curious if there's new functionality.


Version: v1.0.6​*Changes in this version:*


New features:

AAX Support! SINE Player is now available as an AAX plugin for Pro Tools.
Mic Merge improvements: Mic Merge has been optimized with better support for different merge configurations and will now use all available processing power of your machine. We strongly recommend to only use Mic Merge in standalone mode or while playback is stopped.
New Store/My Licenses framework: The Store and My Licenses sections now use a new framework, using your OS's native renderer.
Variations can now be set per loaded articulation when dragging the slider with the mouse. This allows for crossfading vibrato styles in a Polymap, for example. Changing variations via MIDI CC will continue to affect all variations on that particular MIDI Channel.
SINEplayer now supports the auto-sustain functionality (an upcoming free content update for Metropolis Ark 1's guitars is required for this to work).
Re-designed virtual keyboard with optimized playable range and keyswitch range controls:

The virtual keyboard has been re-designed and features a clearer color scheme that will show used/unused black keys.
The active keyswitch is now highlighted, as are keyswitches when hovering.
If the playable range has been adjusted in either direction, a thin line above the keys will show the extended/recorded range.
If the playable range has been shifted, a +/- indicator next to the drag arrows will show the transposition.
The keyswitch logic has been improved; now, keyswitches will intelligently move out of the way.
UI Improvements:

It is possible again to switch off the sustain pedal in the Articulation Options.
If an articulation has more than nine velocity layers, the DYN tab in the Articulation Options will now show a scroll bar.
The re-designed virtual keyboard brings optimized UI performance when making changes to ranges.
The keyboard arrows will no longer vanish when no instrument is loaded.
Performance and reliability improvements:

SINE Player now reliably works with hosts requiring variable buffer sizes, such as FL Studio.
Fixed a small and very rare memory corruption issue with the progress bar.
Changes to the Controller Map will be saved in presets and dutifully reloaded.
If the drive containing actively loaded instrument loses connection, SINE will no longer freeze.
Deleting a collection from disk and then entering My Licenses will no longer make SINE crash.
If a variation was selected with the mouse (instead of via MIDI CC), upon re-opening a sequencer project, this variation will now play correctly (instead of playing the default variation until the SINE UI was opened).
Saved sampler states will now correctly show empty keys in the playable range.
If an instrument's MIDI channel is set to 'Omni', it will now correctly react to all channels after reloading the project, not just to channel 1.
If you switch legato styles within one articulation, unused styles will now be unloaded and reloaded correctly.
SINEplayer now reacts to CC123 ('All notes off') and reacts better to stopping playback in the middle of a note.
Windows: The installer will now remember your install locations and chosen plugin formats when updating.


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## Casiquire (Oct 6, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Version: v1.0.6​*Changes in this version:*
> 
> 
> New features:
> ...


Yes! Thanks so much


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## from_theashes (Oct 6, 2021)

Imm


bill5 said:


> Wow I hate this thing. Sorry to those who like it, but ugh. I have never liked the plugins within a plugin thing anyway, but SINE makes me yearn for Kontakt, and I never dreamed I'd type those words. For starters, for the love of God let me just download my OT plugins directly from the site, not have to jump through hoops through this thing. Second, the downloader sucks anyway; downloads at a slower rate than I normally have and twice already it's told me "your computer is offline" when it's not. Third, after that happened, now I can't get back to the place where it shows me how far along the download is, so I've no idea. Fourth, get rid of the stupid "Store" option. If I want to shop, why would I want to do it within a sample player?
> 
> Now that's all before even actually using it as a sample player yet. I hope it shines there or OT may have lost a future customer.


Feel you!
I tried to copy my (free) OT-libraries to a new ssd and relocate them. No problem with my Kontakt libraries… but SINE is a pain in the a***. Now I‘m not even able to reinstall them.
I‘m just glad I didn’t purchase anything from OT (and probably never will).


----------



## Marsen (Oct 6, 2021)

No fixed purge option? 😒


----------



## Loerpert (Oct 6, 2021)

Glad to see FLS got some love from them. Let's hope the Berlin release on SINE is imminent now!


----------



## AEF (Oct 6, 2021)

LMFAO annnnnd it crashed when adjusting envelopes....in standalone mode. This software is such epic trash it is beyond belief.


----------



## daviddln (Oct 6, 2021)

I installed the new update but mic merge doesn't work for Solo Trombone from Tom Holkenborg's Brass. Does anyone else have this problem with this instrument or is it just me?


----------



## jbuhler (Oct 6, 2021)

daviddln said:


> I installed the new update but mic merge doesn't work for Solo Trombone from Tom Holkenborg's Brass. Does anyone else have this problem with this instruments or is it just me?


Does it just not work or does Sine report an error?


----------



## daviddln (Oct 6, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Does it just not work or does Sine report an error?


No, SINE doesn't report an error. It just doesn't work. When I click on "merge", the window disappears and nothing happens.


----------



## holywilly (Oct 6, 2021)

Mic merge is now working with Berlin Symphonic Strings as expected.


----------



## holywilly (Oct 6, 2021)

I've noticed that OT change the default variation MIDI CC from CC4 to CC3, and I have to change it back to CC4 every time launching SINE. Arrrrrrgh.......


----------



## OT_Tobias (Oct 7, 2021)

holywilly said:


> I've noticed that OT change the default variation MIDI CC from CC4 to CC3, and I have to change it back to CC4 every time launching SINE. Arrrrrrgh.......


This was actually a bug in previous SINEplayer versions. We've always had CC3 in Capsule and a lot of people complained 
You can save an empty SINEplayer instance as a track preset in your sequencer, and just load this preset. That way you can have your favourite settings as the default.



daviddln said:


> I installed the new update but mic merge doesn't work for Solo Trombone from Tom Holkenborg's Brass. Does anyone else have this problem with this instrument or is it just me?


See https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/405-mic-merge-compatibility-updates
There are updates coming for a bunch of instruments.


----------



## daviddln (Oct 7, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> See https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/405-mic-merge-compatibility-updates
> There are updates coming for a bunch of instruments.


Thank you for the information Tobias.


----------



## benwiggy (Oct 11, 2021)

I launched the SINE Player just to check what version it was currently on - and I couldn't find that anywhere!

One of the big problems with SINE is the documentation. If you're going to make your own radical player, then you need good docs, (if it's not going to be entirely discoverable).


----------



## Casiquire (Oct 11, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> I launched the SINE Player just to check what version it was currently on - and I couldn't find that anywhere!
> 
> One of the big problems with SINE is the documentation. If you're going to make your own radical player, then you need good docs, (if it's not going to be entirely discoverable).


But SINE is so user friendly and intuitive


----------



## freecham (Oct 11, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> I launched the SINE Player just to check what version it was currently on - and I couldn't find that anywhere!
> 
> One of the big problems with SINE is the documentation. If you're going to make your own radical player, then you need good docs, (if it's not going to be entirely discoverable).


Click on Orchestra Tools on the top left.


----------



## novaburst (Oct 11, 2021)

One thing I have noticed is when you close Sine it's almost instant before I think it took about 2 seconds appears to be more snappy but this could be my emagination


----------



## Casiquire (Oct 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> But SINE is so user friendly and intuitive


I'm being too subtle. That was sarcasm lmao


----------



## bill5 (Oct 11, 2021)

lol I was wondering


----------



## novaburst (Oct 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm being too subtle. That was sarcasm lmao


I took it for genuine, and face value but hay


----------



## Casiquire (Oct 11, 2021)

novaburst said:


> I took it for genuine, and face value but hay


I find it really unintuitive. I've been able to figure most of it out, but it took more trial and error than I'd like.


----------



## novaburst (Oct 11, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I find it really unintuitive. I've been able to figure most of it out, but it took more trial and error than I'd like.


all in all not really using a lot of any player just find the CC i need control it in my DAW, i do find Sine very responsive and a big fan of the Mic merge,


----------



## constaneum (Oct 11, 2021)

Virtuoso said:


> After a mere 293 days, SINE 1.0.6 is out and the Mic Merge issue is finally fixed - it also has multi core support, which works really well on my Mac Pro.
> 
> Hopefully they can now turn their attention to all the BSS library bugs!


meaning mic merge issue for BSS already fixed too ?


----------



## holywilly (Oct 11, 2021)

constaneum said:


> meaning mic merge issue for BSS already fixed too ?


Yes, it's been fixed, and the merging process is fast!


----------



## constaneum (Oct 11, 2021)

holywilly said:


> Yes, it's been fixed, and the merging process is fast!


ooo.... then BSS can be something to be considered next time since i've already spent on TSS at the moment. broke


----------



## JTB (Oct 12, 2021)

Sine still doesn't enable the user to switch from Velocity controls Xfade and CC controls Xfade on the fly. Something that Capsule has had for 5 years. 

effective immediately I will be henceforth referring to this company as Slow T.


----------



## Gensaii (Oct 13, 2021)

I love it, but the purge function is next to useless with the way it works. Kontakt's is far superior. I'm excited for Berlin Brass to come on SINE but I feel like I'll end up having to use a lot less mics when it does.


----------



## bill5 (Oct 14, 2021)

I tried their Majestic Horn and, being quite underwhelmed, decided to delete it. I got a "cannot delete" error. 

I know some are fans and happy to concede that they have some great stuff for the sake of argument but so done with this company.


----------



## Getsumen (Oct 14, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I tried their Majestic Horn and, being quite underwhelmed, decided to delete it. I got a "cannot delete" error.
> 
> I know some are fans and happy to concede that they have some great stuff for the sake of argument but so done with this company.


Make sure you don't have any instances of SINE with majestic horn loaded.

I also believe you can only delete things in SINE from the master instance. (Standalone, or the first instance of SINE you load.) At least that's the case for things like mic positions. Not sure if it applies to entire instruments but worth a shot. 

I'm not really sure how that comes into play if you have it open in other plugin hosts or your DAW, so try deleting it from the standalone instance if you weren't already


----------



## bill5 (Oct 14, 2021)

I really appreciate all of that info, but your post is IMO more evidence of why I deleted SINE.  The whole thing to me is such a mess.


----------



## Casiquire (Oct 14, 2021)

bill5 said:


> I really appreciate all of that info, but your post is IMO more evidence of why I deleted SINE.  The whole thing to me is such a mess.


SINE totally is a mess lol. My patience with it comes from:

A, it tends to work just fine for my purposes
B, I've had great experiences with the rest of their products
C, every proprietary player except ones coming from VSL is a mess initially and this player is fairly new. Took like five versions before Play was passable and even to this day it's one of my least favorite. In fact i still think i prefer SINE

But yeah it's a mess and i hope they speed up their pace too in the future


----------



## Consona (Oct 15, 2021)

Installed the latest version, it crashed before I could do anything with it. And then again.


----------



## zimm83 (Oct 15, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> SINE totally is a mess lol. My patience with it comes from:
> 
> A, it tends to work just fine for my purposes
> B, I've had great experiences with the rest of their products
> ...


+1


----------



## benwiggy (Oct 15, 2021)

I don't mind the player: it's just some of their funky 'decisions' in their library products that perplexes me. 

Personally, I hate Kontakt, almost irrationally.


----------



## freecham (Oct 15, 2021)

I find Sine efficient but i just have a problem with : in Reaper, when i load an instrument, close the window of the plugin and reopen it, Sine does not open at the same place. I have to navigate through the list of instruments to get back to where I was before. The problem is the same with Kontakt : why the current instrument folder is not displayed when the plugin is opened again. That's a mystery (perhaps related to Reaper...). 
Edit : ok, for Kontakt, you have to disable "Lock current quickjump" in the view.


----------



## Kitosch (Oct 16, 2021)

I'm one of those awful people who run their music setup via Wine in Linux. SINE did work well enough but after the mandatory upgrade in order to check out the new freebie "Dynamo" I can't access the tabs "Shop" and "My licenses". Fortunately I can still access the library I bought. But, it seems, no more buying and no freebies there for me.


----------



## jbuhler (Oct 16, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> SINE totally is a mess lol. My patience with it comes from:
> 
> A, it tends to work just fine for my purposes
> B, I've had great experiences with the rest of their products
> ...


I’ve not really had any issues with Sine and greatly prefer it to the capsule libraries. 

That said, the drive handling is a hot mess. You can’t install the libraries where you want. It’s a pain to relocate libraries. It’s not clear why any of that needs to be that way. 

The GUI is increasingly irritating as there are more libraries available. You can organize your libraries in the main tab for easy finding and reference. It takes lots of clicks to load a library. Really, it’s pretty bad design and it makes me wonder who at OT is actually using their libraries to make music.

Similarly, it would be nice to be able to rename articulations since often you want to to load the same articulation multiple times to add legato, remove dynamic layers, distinguish trills, etc. and for whatever reason they don’t want to let you do this. There’s no feedback on CC1 or CC11 in most instances, which can make it a bit of a pain to debug when you are trying to figure out if the Sine instrument is responding to midi. And then there’s all that functionality packed into the box in the lower right corner. It’s not at all clear why OT thought this was a good idea. Lots of other things at this level that suggest to me that few working on the programming of Sine use it for making music or if they do they are using it in quite different ways than I use it.


----------



## Casiquire (Oct 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I’ve not really had any issues with Sine and greatly prefer it to the capsule libraries.
> 
> That said, the drive handling is a hot mess. You can’t install the libraries where you want. It’s a pain to relocate libraries. It’s not clear why any of that needs to be that way.
> 
> ...


I find Capsule much more intuitive myself. I'm a very slow adopter to SINE though. There's only one single instrument in SINE i use, and i say "use" loosely; i pull it up to fart around with it from time to time just to hear a melody and have never actually used it in a project. And even for that limited use I've been scratching my head wondering why things are the way they are from time to time.

My hope here is that they'll take tons of feedback from the Berklee partnership where i imagine the software will really be put through its paces


----------



## jbuhler (Oct 16, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I find Capsule much more intuitive myself. I'm a very slow adopter to SINE though. There's only one single instrument in SINE i use, and i say "use" loosely; i pull it up to fart around with it from time to time just to hear a melody and have never actually used it in a project. And even for that limited use I've been scratching my head wondering why things are the way they are from time to time.
> 
> My hope here is that they'll take tons of feedback from the Berklee partnership where i imagine the software will really be put through its paces


Capsule instruments are a pain to load if you want to use keyswitches and have one track per instrument (since the capsule instances are limited to 12 articulations, and the instances are limited as to which articulations you can load, and the multi articulation instances differ in some cases from the individual articulations). I have long found a lot of the functionality of Capsule to be counterintuitive, whereas with Sine I can just load everything in very quickly and its functionality is reasonably apparent, if not always well organized. Well, truthfully, it's never well organized but that's true of Capsule too.

Between the SF Player and Sine there's a very good alternative to Kontakt, but they are each missing something the other has, and neither has solved the problem of browsing and organizing libraries, something that Kontakt also struggles with.


----------



## Getsumen (Oct 16, 2021)

Kitosch said:


> I'm one of those awful people who run their music setup via Wine in Linux. SINE did work well enough but after the mandatory upgrade in order to check out the new freebie "Dynamo" I can't access the tabs "Shop" and "My licenses". Fortunately I can still access the library I bought. But, it seems, no more buying and no freebies there for me.


Are you using SINE in the standalone version?


----------



## AEF (Oct 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Capsule instruments are a pain to load if you want to use keyswitches and have one track per instrument (since the capsule instances are limited to 12 articulations, and the instances are limited as to which articulations you can load, and the multi articulation instances differ in some cases from the individual articulations). I have long found a lot of the functionality of Capsule to be counterintuitive, whereas with Sine I can just load everything in very quickly and its functionality is reasonably apparent, if not always well organized. Well, truthfully, it's never well organized but that's true of Capsule too.
> 
> Between the SF Player and Sine there's a very good alternative to Kontakt, but they are each missing something the other has, and neither has solved the problem of browsing and organizing libraries, something that Kontakt also struggles with.


For building a template, sure SINE is easier and faster. 

But for literally everything else it is vastly inferior. Aside from mic merging, there is nothing SINE does that capsule cannot, while there are scores of things capsule does that sine does not.


----------



## Casiquire (Oct 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Between the SF Player and Sine there's a very good alternative to Kontakt, but they are each missing something the other has, and neither has solved the problem of browsing and organizing libraries, something that Kontakt also struggles with.


Right, i think what often gets lost in this conversation is that Kontakt itself isn't a perfect alternative. The only reason Kontakt is so popular is because these devs worked hard to MAKE Kontakt easy to work with, by designing interfaces that kind of make sense and get the job done. It's a little disappointing therefore that so many of these companies come out with their own players that don't have to be hindered by Kontakt's choices, and yet they make their own confusing choices instead. VSL is still the only one I've used who's really nailed this.


----------



## jbuhler (Oct 16, 2021)

AEF said:


> For building a template, sure SINE is easier and faster.
> 
> But for literally everything else it is vastly inferior. Aside from mic merging, there is nothing SINE does that capsule cannot, while there are scores of things capsule does that sine does not.


Pretty much all the functionality that is accessible in the box in the lower right of Sine is much easier to handle in Sine than in Capsule. In my use, Sine also requires quite a lot less RAM for the same number of mics and articulations. Capsule does have a lot more extended functionality, but I find Capsule's implementation overly complex, and it requires quite a lot of RAM. Loading the full Berlin Strings in Capsule remains a struggle even with a 2020 i9 and 128GB of RAM. I'm so looking forward to its port to Sine, where I may finally be able to use the library on a regular basis.


----------



## Loerpert (Oct 16, 2021)

Kitosch said:


> I'm one of those awful people who run their music setup via Wine in Linux. SINE did work well enough but after the mandatory upgrade in order to check out the new freebie "Dynamo" I can't access the tabs "Shop" and "My licenses". Fortunately I can still access the library I bought. But, it seems, no more buying and no freebies there for me.



Interesting, I was thinking about moving my stuff to Linux. How's it working for you? What DAW do you use? Maybe I should PM you about this Lol


----------



## Kitosch (Oct 16, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Are you using SINE in the standalone version?


For buying and downloading, yes. Can I do that in the plug-in as well? I never thought of that.


----------



## Kitosch (Oct 16, 2021)

Loerpert said:


> Interesting, I was thinking about moving my stuff to Linux. How's it working for you? What DAW do you use? Maybe I should PM you about this Lol


I'm no expert as I'm pretty new to all this myself, but feel free to do so. I'm using Reaper.


----------



## Getsumen (Oct 16, 2021)

Kitosch said:


> For buying and downloading, yes. Can I do that in the plug-in as well? I never thought of that.


Nah you can't which is why I was asking. Guess you just submit a ticket and hope for the best :/ Sorry to hear about the bug.


----------



## Kitosch (Oct 16, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Nah you can't which is why I was asking. Guess you just submit a ticket and hope for the best :/ Sorry to hear about the bug.


Okay, thanks. I expect they'll just say they don't support Linux.


----------



## benwiggy (Oct 21, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Nah you can't which is why I was asking. Guess you just submit a ticket and hope for the best :/ Sorry to hear about the bug.


You can only access the Store in the first instance of SINE that you load. So, if the standalone player is already running, you can't access the Store in any plug-in. But it you quit the standalone player, then load up some VSTs, then the first one can access the store.


----------



## holywilly (Oct 21, 2021)

Berlin Symphonic Strings have very weird legato transitions at higher registers of notes after mic merge. Anyone has noticed that?

Cello range around G3 to B3 for example.


----------



## Kitosch (Oct 26, 2021)

benwiggy said:


> You can only access the Store in the first instance of SINE that you load. So, if the standalone player is already running, you can't access the Store in any plug-in. But it you quit the standalone player, then load up some VSTs, then the first one can access the store.


Thanks, I checked that and it's true. However I get the same result in the plug-in as in the stand-alone. As soon as I hit "Shop" or "My licenses" all the headlines turn grey and nothing happens. The only thing I can do afterwards is using the search which only finds instruments I have installed.


----------



## Pianist (Oct 26, 2021)

Kitosch said:


> Okay, thanks. I expect they'll just say they don't support Linux.


Actually, I still run my music setup on Windows 7 (I know, I know, should have upgraded years ago ...) and this update of SINE is the first one which does not run (or even can be installed) on that OS. Maybe that's why there is a problem running it in WINE.
So no more future freebies or libraries for me either...


----------



## Pablocrespo (Oct 26, 2021)

I don’t like the mixer design, I never know which channel I am soloing etc. with no clear separation between tracks. 

Those design decisions always baffles me. Don’t get me started on spitfire’s giant reverb knob that forces us to scroll the peg system.


----------



## Casiquire (Oct 26, 2021)

Pablocrespo said:


> I don’t like the mixer design, I never know which channel I am soloing etc. with no clear separation between tracks.
> 
> Those design decisions always baffles me. Don’t get me started on spitfire’s giant reverb knob that forces us to scroll the peg system.


I agree. The mixer is visually unclear regarding which settings go to which mic. I *do* like the mic remote a lot though. Is there a way to link it between several instances of SINE, so that ALL of my SINE instruments get updated?


----------



## Consona (Nov 13, 2021)

Anybody knows what this means?


----------



## arafaratanran (Nov 18, 2021)

@OT_Tobias 
Now that you seem to be close to having converted all content for Sine, I have a question regarding Sine:

We still only have a very rough implementation of controling its parameters with midi (CC). WIth Capsule in Kontakt we can control ANY parameter via CC or other midi commands. You still cannot even control the most basic functions via midi with this 7th incarnation of Sine after more than two years of development. Especially the mixer control is a problem! it is very cumbersome having to adjust every instrument separately via GUI. With Capsule, I could just select all tracks and adjust the mixer settings with faders while playback. This is crucial for being able to mix by ear vs just having fixed settings. It saves SO much time to be able to do that!

Also, I found it really important to have all of the control features from Capsule! I could just load all of the OT instruments inside VEpro and the settings for each instrument are always automated and saved in each Cubase project as needed. With all of those midi CC automation missing, I would have to open the VEpro instance and tweak the setting in the GUI. Also, I need to save the VEpro template for each project separately without. 

All of those things make me feel about Sine like a several steps backwards despite some enhancements. Workflow is just so much more important compared to more fancy features like saving mic mixes to disc.

*Is there any rough time table when we can expect to come equal to capsule with Sine in that regard? Or is there at least a promise that these features are even planned to return for Sine?*

I am not sure how many people share my concerns. But it shouldn't be just me, as this is a pretty obvious problem when working with Sine in a decoupled VEpro template that is used on different projects ...

Thanks!


----------



## X-Bassist (Nov 18, 2021)

Got to agree with the OP, Sine has been an issue everytime I load it, every update.

Two years in and it’s on 1.0.6? So the one minimum wage scripter working on it weekends only is taking too many vacations? 😀 Most companies would be on version 2.1 by now, but at least my rule of not working with software that hasn’t reached .1 still stands. 1.0.6 after 2 years? Really?

When they first released this I was saying that diverting their programmers to work on sampler player bugs for years was going to mess up OT, looks like I wasn’t wrong. I still prefer capsule to sine, even with ram issues. I hope that can change with 2.1 in 2035. 😂


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> Got to agree with the OP, Sine has been an issue everytime I load it, every update.
> 
> Two years in and it’s on 1.0.6? So the one minimum wage scripter working on it weekends only is taking too many vacations? 😀 Most companies would be on version 2.1 by now, but at least my rule of not working with software that hasn’t reached .1 still stands. 1.0.6 after 2 years? Really?
> 
> When they first released this I was saying that diverting their programmers to work on sampler player bugs for years was going to mess up OT, looks like I wasn’t wrong. I still prefer capsule to sine, even with ram issues. I hope that can change with 2.1 in 2035. 😂


1.0.7 😛


----------



## X-Bassist (Nov 18, 2021)

Now there’s a sale. 50% off Berlin orch and sections, and you can still buy Kontakt version but it warns you it will cost 10% of full price to upgrade to sine.

But if the sine versions are not done, what do you get when you buy the sine versions? Do they not send you anything? Just an email “coming soon!”?? After spending $500 on strings that would suck!

I’m just glad they are still selling the Kontakt version, which I don’t expect to last.


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 18, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> Now there’s a sale. 50% off Berlin orch and sections, and you can still buy Kontakt version but it warns you it will cost 10% of full price to upgrade to sine.
> 
> But if the sine versions are not done, what do you get when you buy the sine versions? Do they not send you anything? Just an email “coming soon!”?? After spending $500 on strings that would suck!
> 
> I’m just glad they are still selling the Kontakt version, which I don’t expect to last.


The SINE versions are very much done 😁


----------



## daviddln (Nov 18, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> Now there’s a sale. 50% off Berlin orch and sections, and you can still buy Kontakt version but it warns you it will cost 10% of full price to upgrade to sine.
> 
> But if the sine versions are not done, what do you get when you buy the sine versions? Do they not send you anything? Just an email “coming soon!”?? After spending $500 on strings that would suck!
> 
> I’m just glad they are still selling the Kontakt version, which I don’t expect to last.


The SINE versions are available! I'm downloading right now.


----------



## Hansu Heya (Nov 19, 2021)

arafaratanran said:


> @OT_Tobias
> Now that you seem to be close to having converted all content for Sine, I have a question regarding Sine:
> 
> We still only have a very rough implementation of controling its parameters with midi (CC). WIth Capsule in Kontakt we can control ANY parameter via CC or other midi commands. You still cannot even control the most basic functions via midi with this 7th incarnation of Sine after more than two years of development. Especially the mixer control is a problem! it is very cumbersome having to adjust every instrument separately via GUI. With Capsule, I could just select all tracks and adjust the mixer settings with faders while playback. This is crucial for being able to mix by ear vs just having fixed settings. It saves SO much time to be able to do that!
> ...


Yes, I agree with that! Sine development feels really slow, considering that these features should not be that difficult to implement.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I'm getting 100% CPU reading on BSS for some reason with one note playing. Sine 1.0.8. Anyone experience something like this? Do you know what's going on? I'm in Studio One.
> 
> EDIT: seems to happen whenever I move a CC fader as well. CPU just spikes to 100%.
> 
> Thanks


I tested it in Sine 1.0.7 standalone. CPU never cracked 2% no matter how much I moved CCs.


----------



## jcrosby (Dec 27, 2021)

ka00 said:


> I'm getting 100% CPU reading on BSS for some reason with one note playing. Sine 1.0.8. Anyone experience something like this? Do you know what's going on? I'm in Studio One.
> 
> EDIT: seems to happen whenever I move a CC fader as well. CPU just spikes to 100%.
> 
> Thanks


Not happening here in 1.0.8 testing CC1.


----------



## jcrosby (Dec 27, 2021)

Maybe it's a SINE issue with your DAW or OS? 
I'm on Macos 10.15 / Logic.


----------



## benwiggy (Dec 28, 2021)

Just installed v1.08**, and SINE Player still claims to be v. 0.1.00







** The only way I hear about SINE updates is through this forum!!


----------



## easyrider (Dec 28, 2021)

Sine updates should be available within the player itself….they have the shop etc….why not have a check for updates tab, button or whatever?


----------



## benwiggy (Dec 28, 2021)

Where? Never seen them. 

Anyway, I foolishly just bought the Tableau Solo Strings. The looping is really poor, and as per usual the samples seem 'late' compared to every other library. Also loads of weird troubles trying to get my Expression Map to work properly.


----------



## dijon (Dec 31, 2021)

Is there a way to organize libraries in the sine interface? My Ark Libraries are always at the bottom and they're my most used.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 31, 2021)

dijon said:


> Is there a way to organize libraries in the sine interface? My Ark Libraries are always at the bottom and they're my most used.


No, unfortunately, I don't believe you can reorganize them. My Arks are at the top, and I'd prefer them elsewhere. 

I thought the order in the library tab was by when the libraries were released, but if your Arks are deep down the list, it might be by purchase/installation. In which case, you might be able to uninstall everything and then reinstall it in the order you want. I haven't tried and don't want to risk messing up a working Sine installation. The libraries do automatically group in the library by series.


----------



## Gensaii (Dec 31, 2021)

dijon said:


> Is there a way to organize libraries in the sine interface? My Ark Libraries are always at the bottom and they're my most used.


Then you're in luck. For the Arks specifically you'll find that if you add them using the "collections" button (simply remove them first without deleting the files) it brings them together to the very top. 

Doesn't work the same way for the other libraries as far as I know. Don't ask me why, ask them😅


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 31, 2021)

Gensaii said:


> Then you're in luck. For the Arks specifically you'll find that if you add them using the "collections" button (simply remove them first without deleting the files) it brings them together to the very top.
> 
> Doesn't work the same way for the other libraries as far as I know. Don't ask me why, ask them😅


I got excited until the last paragraph


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## YahmezTV (Dec 31, 2021)

I wish there was a way to make a key switch momentary instead of latching. Doesn’t seem to be possible in SINE…


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## muziksculp (Dec 31, 2021)

SINE needs a lot of improvements, and new features. It is a pain to work with, especially when you have lots of libraries populated in it.

I really hope OT is seriously planning on moving SINE forward during 2022. I'm sure they can do much better, they just have to go ahead, and do it, and I mean a major step forward with SINE, i.e. SINE ver 2.0 with many improvements to the discussed weaknesses, complaints, that are currently pointed out about SINE 1.0.8 to be ironed out, and greatly improved in version 2.0 with a really great Purge feature.

I hope OT all the best during 2022, they just have to be realistic, and admit that SINE as is right now, is not good enough.


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## Mucusman (Dec 31, 2021)

I’d love to see a good workflow video (tips) for SINE. The way I use it to load and unload patches seems clunky and inelegant. And there are probably ways to use SINE well that I am unaware of. Does one exist?


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## Sunny Schramm (Dec 31, 2021)

Mucusman said:


> I’d love to see a good workflow video (tips) for SINE. The way I use it to load and unload patches seems clunky and inelegant. And there are probably ways to use SINE well that I am unaware of. Does one exist?


i dont think so 🤷‍♂️ some time ago I already pitched to OT that a double-click for "unload" an instrument/articulation would be much easier and faster. should not be that difficult to add. also a user-folder by library for our own stacked multis and edited instruments- and mixer-changes would be nice. hope there will be some workflow optimizations soon 🍀


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## jbuhler (Dec 31, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> also a user-folder by library for our own stacked multis and edited instruments- and mixer-changes would be nice.


You can set this up yourself relatively easily, at least for the multis and edited instruments. I'm not sure about the mixer changes. I organize my presets though folders. But you have to make the folders yourself, and there is no way to get Sine to default to the location—or any location except the one that OT sets.


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## Sunny Schramm (Dec 31, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> You can set this up yourself relatively easily, at least for the multis and edited instruments. I'm not sure about the mixer changes. I organize my presets though folders. But you have to make the folders yourself, and there is no way to get Sine to default to the location—or any location except the one that OT sets.


I know - but it would much better when the folder would be inside the instrument and not elsewhere.


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## muziksculp (Dec 31, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I organize my presets though folders.


Could you elaborate on this a bit, how it's done ? 

I never did this when using SINE. 

Thanks.


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## jbuhler (Dec 31, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> I know - but it would much better when the folder would be inside the instrument and not elsewhere.


I'm not sure. That could quickly get unruly. Unless you are talking about it residing in the library folder. But in any case, accessing and saving the presets could be a lot more straightforward.


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## jbuhler (Dec 31, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Could you elaborate on this a bit, how it's done ?
> 
> I never did this when using SINE.
> 
> Thanks.













This is MacOS, obviously, so on Windows you need to open Load or Save to find out where Sine defaults to saving. In MacOs, the default is this shared folder. I created the Sine folder inside that folder. Then I created the folders for the various libraries inside that. The downside is: that's a lot of clicking to save and load your presets. But it's well organized. In order to facilitate loading, I'll likely make Logic presets for these, that should make even fewer clicks.


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## muziksculp (Dec 31, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> This is MacOS, obviously, so on Windows you need to open Load or Save to find out where Sine defaults to saving. In MacOs, the default is this shared folder. I created the Sine folder inside that folder. Then I created the folders for the various libraries inside that. The downside is: that's a lot of clicking to save and load your presets. But it's well organized. In order to facilitate loading, I'll likely make Logic presets for these, that should make even fewer clicks.


Thanks @jbuhler .

I'm on Windows 10/ Studio One Pro 5, so I will have to check where SINE stores its files on my system. I'm also going to check what happens if I use Studio One Pro 5's Multi-Instruments feature with SINE, since I don't see why I couldn't just store S1Pro 5 multi-Instruments, but that would require multiple instances of SINE for each instrument. So, it's a different approach. I will experiment a bit and see what happens.


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## artomatic (Jan 11, 2022)

SINE Player v1.0.7 is at the moment very glitchy for me within VEP7. The UIs are ultra big in size and there's no option to zoom out.
Aware that v1.0.8 is out, are there any outstanding bugs?

Mac Pro 7,1 late 2019 - Big Sur
Pro Tools 2021.12
VEP 7.0.1


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## Sergievsky (Jan 11, 2022)

artomatic said:


> SINE Player v1.0.7 is at the moment very glitchy for me within VEP7. The UIs are ultra big in size and there's no option to zoom out.
> Aware that v1.0.8 is out, are there any outstanding bugs?
> 
> Mac Pro 7,1 late 2019 - Big Sur
> ...


Why not just update? Especially if you’re having issues. With young software like Sine I’d update as soon as they release one. That said, I myself still have to test it out with VEP, but I got forced to upgrade my 2017 iMac Pro to Monterey, so will see how that works out.


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## muddyblue (Mar 11, 2022)

V 1.09 still missing the simple feature (like Soundpaint makes very good), *mark* my *favorites *!
I miss that still.....in big preset libs like Habitat. 

So OT, please make it possible somehow!


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## Marsen (May 1, 2022)

I´m curious:
Does someone already worked with the Sine 1.09 Update?
How are the experiences?
It seems, it addresses some issues, I had with sine.


This information is from OT page:

1.0.9​SINEplayer 1.0.9 is a big technological and stability update. It introduces a VST3 version of SINEplayer, as well as native support for Apple's ARM-based chips. Furthermore, it fixes a number of crashes and brings performance and assorted improvements.

New Features:​
Apple M1 compatibility: SINEplayer is now natively supported on Apple's M1 architecture.
VST3 support for Windows and macOS. Note that some hosts will not show the VST2 version of SINEplayer if the VST3 version is installed. This is intentional by those developers.
Performance Improvements:​
SINEplayer would show activation or loading issues on system with non-latin characters in path names. Now SINEplayer should work fine in all locales.
In some cases, SINEplayer would only load samples if the plugin UI was shown. Now all tracks should always load. We suggest waiting with playback until all instruments have fully loaded.
On some systems, preloading performance degraded with lots of instances due to drive contention. This has been greatly improved and loading should be linear independent of the number of instances.
With a lot of instruments loaded, showing the Mixer View would lead to bad UI performance.
Greatly lowered CPU consumption in all views if the mixer is not shown actively.
Crashes:​
When resizing SINEplayer, loading an instrument could lead to a crash.
When dragging an instrument into an empty articulation list, one particular drag point would lead to a crash.
When setting a controller in the Controller Map below 0 or above 127, SINEplayer would crash.
When moving keyswitches to a point beyond the left window bounds, saving a preset (or sequencer project) would corrupt the save state and render the project impossible to open.
When loading a preset that contained a Mic Merge that is not present anymore, SINEplayer would crash if another preset was already loaded.
When loading SINEplayer as a plugin while downloads were running, a crash could occur.
When loading a project where content was missing in the library, opening the project would hang for a long time. Now projects with missing content load normally and will show a "Mic Position missing" dialog when opening SINEplayer.
Showing many SINEplayer UIs at the same time would lead to very bad UI performance and possibly a temporary freeze.
Fixes:​
Timestretching will now correctly follow the host tempo, especially when playing multiple voices.
Similarly, Auto Tempo will correctly apply tempo scaling even at more extreme values
When merging instruments, in some cases legato transitions would play back wrongly. This has been fixed. You will need to delete affected merges and re-merge them.
When importing certain content, the search index could not be created properly. This has been addressed, along with some stability fixes for the search box.
In some cases, when an instrument has a lot of mic positions, these would not expand correctly in the Library.
Importing content with some special characters would fail to create the search index for the internal search.


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## holywilly (May 1, 2022)

SINEplayer 1.0.9 fixed the mic merge issue, and somehow the legatos for Berlin series and other SINE libraries seemed much better in general.
Now I’m a happy SINE user.


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## holywilly (May 1, 2022)

And I feel the loading time is relatively faster than the previous versions.


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## jonathanwright (May 1, 2022)

Thanks for the heads up, I didn’t know this was out!

On an M1 mac, it’s noticeably faster. Starting in standalone mode is instant. In Cubase (Rosetta), it’s also much faster to open and sample loading appears to be much improved.


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 1, 2022)

_In some cases, SINEplayer would only load samples if the plugin UI was shown. Now all tracks should always load. We suggest waiting with playback until all instruments have fully loaded._

I had mentioned this a few months ago here. Finally SINE behaves like every other player.

They just need to implement proper purging and completely overhaul the UI now.


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## Casiquire (May 1, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> _In some cases, SINEplayer would only load samples if the plugin UI was shown. Now all tracks should always load. We suggest waiting with playback until all instruments have fully loaded._
> 
> I had mentioned this a few months ago here. Finally SINE behaves like every other player.
> 
> They just need to implement proper purging and completely overhaul the UI now.


Agreed with all of this! Stability is slowly becoming less of a concern, but aesthetics and functionality have a ways to go


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## KEM (May 1, 2022)

So happy about the vst3 version and native Apple Silicon support, I’ve always been a big believer in the SINE Player despite the issues found in the earlier versions and now that things are getting ironed out I hope other people start to see what a great engine it is, hopefully we get a new JXL library soon to reinvigorate the love for it!!


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## KJL (May 1, 2022)

Marsen said:


> I´m curious:
> Does someone already worked with the Sine 1.09 Update?
> How are the experiences?
> It seems, it addresses some issues, I had with sine.
> ...


Thank you for the information!
OT really need to work on their update announcements. If i don't open this thread and read this post i wouldn't have known that there is an update for SINE. I've checked my e-mail, their instagram, their website as soon as i read this post and none of it announce any update for SINE. Or maybe i'm missing something? Does anyone else also find this a problem?


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## muziksculp (May 1, 2022)

Thanks for the heads up on SINE 1.0.9 Update. 👍


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## Chungus (May 1, 2022)

KJL said:


> Thank you for the information!
> OT really need to work on their update announcements. If i don't open this thread and read this post i wouldn't have known that there is an update for SINE. I've checked my e-mail, their instagram, their website as soon as i read this post and none of it announce any update for SINE. Or maybe i'm missing something? Does anyone else also find this a problem?


Same here. So to answer the question; yes. Very much so.


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## muziksculp (May 1, 2022)

Chungus said:


> Same here. So to answer the question; yes. Very much so.


Yup, I wouldn't have known about this SINE update if it wasn't for this forum post. Why can't OT just email their users about SINE updates ? That should be a simple thing to do you would guess.


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## Casiquire (May 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Yup, I wouldn't have known about this SINE update if it wasn't for this forum post. Why can't OT just email their users about SINE updates ? That should be a simple thing to do you would guess.


For that matter, why can't the app itself tell users? It already does for library updates


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## muziksculp (May 1, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> For that matter, why can't the app itself tell users? It already does for library updates


Yes, I was checking if my SINE app. did that, but it didn't


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## KEM (May 1, 2022)

KJL said:


> Thank you for the information!
> OT really need to work on their update announcements. If i don't open this thread and read this post i wouldn't have known that there is an update for SINE. I've checked my e-mail, their instagram, their website as soon as i read this post and none of it announce any update for SINE. Or maybe i'm missing something? Does anyone else also find this a problem?





Casiquire said:


> For that matter, why can't the app itself tell users? It already does for library updates



Agreed, I had no idea there was an update and I wouldn’t have known at all if it weren’t for me going to get the new Formby library, which told me I needed to update the player. It’d be nice if the player had a pop up window letting you know a newer version is available


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## Marsen (May 1, 2022)

Funny.
And I was unsure to post it as a new thread, thinking everybody already knew about 1.09.
Thatˋs why I put it here in an older topic of Sine.


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## muziksculp (May 1, 2022)

Marsen said:


> Funny.
> And I was unsure to post it as a new thread, thinking everybody already knew about 1.09.
> Thatˋs why I put it here in an older topic of Sine.


Thanks. 

How did you know about the 1.0.9 update ?


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## Marsen (May 1, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks.
> 
> How did you know about the 1.0.9 update ?


From another post here in the forum, not sure if it came from @Zanshin ?
But nearly nobody reacted on this 1.09 info.

So I had a look at OTˋs sine changelog.
This was especially interesting for me, as it adressed a crash reason, I had for a long time.
I did contacted OT-Support weeks ago about it, and they were very responsive and helpful.
They mailed me a workaround for this and since then, I didn’t have a crash of Sine on mac anymore ( well, one time i repeated this problem).

Reading, they solved it with 1.09, I thought i share these infos.
But I did not updated yet, cause i had been an early bird victim in the past.


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## Geoff Grace (May 1, 2022)

MacUpdater told me about the Sine 1.09 update. More here:






MacUpdater – keep all your apps up-to-date effortlessly


mac app to update applications



www.corecode.io





Best,

Geoff


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## Zanshin (May 1, 2022)

1.09 was released quietly along with Furby or whatever the new free library is called. In fact the website still listed 1.08 as newest for the first day or so after it was released. It’s surprising since other companies are falling over themselves to announce M1 native support.

I hope they keep charging forward on Sine and fixing Berlin


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## muziksculp (May 1, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I hope they keep charging forward on Sine and fixing Berlin


Fixing Berlin seems to be their mission impossible.


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## KEM (May 1, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> 1.09 was released quietly along with Furby or whatever the new free library is called. In fact the website still listed 1.08 as newest for the first day or so after it was released. It’s surprising since other companies are falling over themselves to announce M1 native support.
> 
> I hope they keep charging forward on Sine and fixing Berlin



I know you didn’t just say Furby


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## jonathanwright (May 1, 2022)

Yeah, M1 and VST3 support is a pretty big deal for a lot of users, so releasing the update so quietly is strange.

I guess they may have been doing a soft launch to iron out potential bugs first.


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## PaulieDC (May 1, 2022)

jonathanwright said:


> Yeah, M1 and VST3 support is a pretty big deal for a lot of users, so releasing the update so quietly is strange.
> 
> I guess they may have been doing a soft launch to iron out potential bugs first.


Probably tired of taking the hit from this site, lol.


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## Casiquire (May 2, 2022)

I also think it was a soft launch which is a smart move for them. I'm not at my desk for a couple more days, does SINE prompt an update now?


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## Zanshin (May 2, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I also think it was a soft launch which is a smart move for them. I'm not at my desk for a couple more days, does SINE prompt an update now?


No prompt.


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## galactic orange (May 2, 2022)

The email informing of the 1.0.9 update has finally arrived.


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## aelwyn (May 2, 2022)

Drat. I installed 1.0.9 today, and now none of my expression maps work. I use program changes for switching articulations, and after the upgrade... they just sit on the first articulation.

I have a support request in. Hoping this is a case of user error, and not a lapse in QA testing.


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## coprhead6 (May 2, 2022)

aelwyn said:


> Drat. I installed 1.0.9 today, and now none of my expression maps work. I use program changes for switching articulations, and after the upgrade... they just sit on the first articulation.
> 
> I have a support request in. Hoping this is a case of user error, and not a lapse in QA testing.



I just upgraded and you gave me a panic attack!!
Luckily all of my custom mapping still works. I use CC data and none of that was changed in my template / there was no reversion to keyswitches.


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## jbuhler (May 2, 2022)

aelwyn said:


> Drat. I installed 1.0.9 today, and now none of my expression maps work. I use program changes for switching articulations, and after the upgrade... they just sit on the first articulation.
> 
> I have a support request in. Hoping this is a case of user error, and not a lapse in QA testing.


Did you check that the Articulation list is set to "with program change"?


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## andyhy (May 3, 2022)

aelwyn said:


> Drat. I installed 1.0.9 today, and now none of my expression maps work. I use program changes for switching articulations, and after the upgrade... they just sit on the first articulation.
> 
> I have a support request in. Hoping this is a case of user error, and not a lapse in QA testing.


Was it the vst3 version you loaded? If so, as far as I'm aware, Steinberg -- who developed the vst3 standard -- decided to abandon support for Programme Change because of concerns about handling raw midi data. It's still available in the vst2 versions of plugins. Sometimes I use a Godin LGXT midi guitar/Roland VG-99 synth set up with programme change so I can select articulations remotely but in my experience it only works with vst2 plugins in Reaper so when I want to control any virtual instrument without fiddling with the GUI on my PC I have to load the vst2 version of a plugin. Thankfully most developers still seem to offer both. Check out the vst2 version of the SINEplayer and hopefully you'll find your mapping still works with that.


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## aelwyn (May 3, 2022)

andyhy said:


> Was it the vst3 version you loaded? If so, as far as I'm aware, Steinberg -- who developed the vst3 standard -- decided to abandon support for Programme Change because of concerns about handling raw midi data.


Ugh. Well, that must be it, especially considering that one of the changelog items for 1.0.9 is:

VST3 support for Windows and macOS. Note that some hosts will not show the VST2 version of SINEplayer if the VST3 version is installed. This is intentional by those developers.
Evidently Cubase is one of those hosts, and that would explain why my projects using program changes for articulation switching worked fine before the update to 1.0.9 — Cubase was using the VST2 version before. I just modified one expression map to use Keyswitches instead of program changes, and it works fine. So that's that. I'm just going to bite the bullet and modify the rest of my expression maps accordingly.


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## tonio_ (May 4, 2022)

I don't mind it to be honest.

One thing that annoys me is that there aren't any numbers anywhere (for the panning and volume for example). The fact that you can't rearrange libraries is also a bit irritating, but no big deal.

But other than that, I like it. I just wish there were more options for us to go under the hood, like adjust volumes of dynamic layers, legato speeds, etc. And for the Polymaps to be "saveable". Maybe in a few years we'll get all of that!


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## Geomir (May 4, 2022)

tonio_ said:


> One thing that annoys me is that there aren't any numbers anywhere (for the panning and volume for example).


+1

Silly as it sounds, this is a big deal for me. I am hesitant to buy any Cine libraries until they implement it. I don't think it's so difficult, and hopefully they will do it in the future.

Sometimes i.e. I like the relative volume or position of 2 instruments, but I want to give them (just an example) -2db or pan them for +15 (together). I can't do this simple task with Sine.

P.S. Yes I know I could do it with my DAW, but I prefer to leave my DAW's volume and panning controls for automation functions.


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## coprhead6 (May 4, 2022)

Geomir said:


> P.S. Yes I know I could do it with my DAW, but I prefer to leave my DAW's volume and panning controls for automation functions.



FYI, if you are panning a stereo sound you will want to use a stereo panner plugin and NOT the DAW track panners. I know this isn’t the point of your comment, but you will get a much better sound if you have not been happy with your track panners on orchestral sounds. I use a plugin called “PanPot” to manipulate the position of orchestral libraries or anything that has reverb before the panner.


Okay back on topic -

I’m a huge fan of this new SINE update. It is SO much snappier.


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## Zanshin (May 4, 2022)

coprhead6 said:


> FYI, if you are panning a stereo sound you will want to use a stereo panner plugin and NOT the DAW track panners. I know this isn’t the point of your comment, but you will get a much better sound if you have not been happy with your track panners on orchestral sounds. I use a plugin called “PanPot” to manipulate the position of orchestral libraries or anything that has reverb before the panner.
> 
> 
> Okay back on topic -
> ...


Goodhertz PanPot? YES.

You make a great point, all panners are not created equal, PanPot is awesome, and VSL's PowerPan Pro too. They both offer the same multiple methods of panning (at the same time). I pan Berlin (narrow) to match up with Synchron (wide) positions this using these.

I also agree new Sine update is fantastic!


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## Geomir (May 4, 2022)

coprhead6 said:


> FYI, if you are panning a stereo sound you will want to use a stereo panner plugin and NOT the DAW track panners. I know this isn’t the point of your comment, but you will get a much better sound if you have not been happy with your track panners on orchestral sounds. I use a plugin called “PanPot” to manipulate the position of orchestral libraries or anything that has reverb before the panner.
> 
> 
> Okay back on topic -
> ...


Thank you for the tip. I see Panpot is really affordable. I didn't know about it. That's why I am after orchestral libraries that they have at least a mid / main room mic with all the instruments recorded in situ. Happy to know that the new Sine update is so much improved, I hope that numbered knobs are on the way.


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