# SPAT vs Altiverb



## 10Dman (Mar 12, 2016)

I've looked for a comparison, but have not found one for orchestral music.
I'm trying to decide whether to go with Spat or Altiverb, but the decision is rather difficult.
What do you think sound best for orchestral positioning and verb?

10Dman


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 12, 2016)

Two different beasts altogether, can't really be compared. I am sure someone can elaborate more than I can  I would say get Altiverb first. It should do most for you, SPAT can "save you" in some more difficult sitautions possibly, where Altiverb isn't suitable. I would also say, you might be disappointed if you ONLY get SPAT. It is a much more complex tool, and won't get you as quick results.


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## dgburns (Mar 12, 2016)

I have Altiverb,but don't own Spat yet.

My personal thoughts on Altiverb-
Great to get the vibe of a space if that's what you're after.But it is convolution reverb and that means the results will depend on the impulses recorded.I always found altiverb to be a bit "static" in that it feels like a snapshot of a particular space,not the actual space itself.The space itself would always sound more alive and moving if one were to record mic's in the room.However,it can be ok depending on the situation.In the case of orchestral midi mockups,there was a time it was my go to,especially to go from stereo to quad,but I was only using scoring stages and even then,you had to be careful of the room nodes introduced with the way the impulses were recorded.I had success using the Todd AO and especially the 20th Century Fox stage,which became my favourite as the room nodes were a bit more even (at least to my ears).I never did much panning,preferring to throw up the altiverb on the subs with a blend of dry mostly in front and the rear being mostly the Altiverb rear mic's.
By the by,the Teldex room is quite good as well.I just preferred the US scoring stages myself.

Since all that(which was a few years back) I've been going more stereo these days (and I guess I'm in good company with the likes of Harry Gregson-Williams seemingly doing the same during the writing process).As a result I've actually gone to using Valhalla room as the basic tail verb across the board.I would maybe prefer the B2,but it takes up more cpu's and I don't feel the darker sound is working for me these days.I do use B2 on solo things like very long lexi type wash for flutes,or anything actually played.B2 in surround with Spat like positioning would be a thing to marvel at if it were to be conceived and available.

As for Spat-the thing is I wish it adopted the same gui as MIR from Vienna.That would be my ultimate goal.Spat won't colour the sound like Altiverb will,imho,but I think that's actually it's strength.It can take a source and move it back into the room in a way I have not been able to find with anything else.The dilemma of recording spot instruments and placing them into a larger sound source,such as the sound of many libs out there is tricky at best.Spat is magical for taking a mono source and making it 5_1.I have not found anything else that can do it quite like Spat.Setting up Spat as your main verb is going to take some head scratching,but it can be done.What I like best about Spat is that it does spacial positioning as well as ambient generating.And the results (in capable hands) is simply stunning.But you have to do your due diligence and learn the thing through and through.

Only reason I don't own Spat yet is because I'm on an assignment that does not call for it's use.I missed the chance to buy it at 500,so will likely pull the trigger when it comes up for sale,if it ever does.

Obviously MIR is the other elephant in the room.While I was auditioning Spat,I tried Mir as well.While it was superior for me to Altiverb,I felt the convo verb issue was also the issue here.I've read others talk about the convo vs algo issue,and it seems we all come to the same conclusion that algo verbs create more movement and are generally brighter sounding then convo,which will create the sense of space,but doesn't have that bloom and movement algo verb will bring.

As a final thought,while all this is personal,there is also the fact that my personal taste and esthetic these days is to go for more fidelity.I find myself wanting to have fidelity and clarity across the board,and convo verbs seem to cloud the sound up for me.I'd rather leave the spot mic up and put an algo tail on it then try and convince the listeners that the music was actually recorded somewhere it wasn't.I also am recording these days with a cedar dns2000 prior to input to act as a sort of room remover of sorts,which helps me get a drier sound going in.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 12, 2016)

There are others here that have more experience with it, but I recently purchased Eareverb2 and it has a very good sound, and also has nice positioning options.

You can demo it obviously. So to give you another option....


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## re-peat (Mar 13, 2016)

As much as I like Altiverb, the choice is glaringly obvious, I’d say: SPAT. Every mixing hour of the day, every day of the week.

In short: SPAT is endlessly more versatile than anything else and also sounds better — and I mean: the sonic integrity of SPAT’s output — than just about everything else. Its only major short-coming is the fact that, in most DAW’s, it’s quite difficult to make SPAT process several sources simultaneously (due to some routing inflexibilities in the combination DAW-SPAT).
But for single source processing, nothing even begins to comes close offering all that is possible with SPAT.

SPAT may look a complex, sophisticated beast at first, with a seemingly infinite number of enigmatic parameters, yes, but for our purposes — placing and positioning virtual instruments in a mix — you actualy only need to know about a surprisingly small handful of these parameters, no more anyway than the number of parameters you’re expected to know about when working with any other reverb/spatializer.

(A good understanding of) seven or so parameters gets you more than started, and then add, say, another ten or fifteen if you want to be fully equal to any spatializing challenge that a mock-up might ever present you with.

Also keep in mind that spatializing — good-sounding, mix- and music-aware spatializing, I mean — is a fairly complex affair to begin with, so a certain degree of commitment and a willingness-to-learn on the part of the user is always going to be requirement. And that’s not just the case with SPAT. Good use of Altiverb, or MIR, or whatever, can also only happen after quite a bit of studying the software and a thorough understanding of everything needs to be considered if you want to be able to spatialize virtual instruments convincingly.)

I’ve done a few SPAT-videos, going over all its important parameters and showing a few different techniques, using source sounds from Sample Modeling, VSL and LASS.
Here’s *one of those videos*, a "quick glance" type-of-thing which uses an anechoic flute recording to explain some of the SPAT-basics with. (The opening screen indicates where the other videos can be found.)

_


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## tack (Mar 13, 2016)

dgburns said:


> As a result I've actually gone to using Valhalla room as the basic tail verb across the board.


Bear in mind ValhallaRoom produces early energy (a term they use instead of "early reflections"). This is unsurprising, because it's a room/space simulator. I also used to use VR as my reverb glue until I found it was doing unwanted things to instruments with harsh attacks (I noticed on a glock), even with the early parameters dialed back as far as they would go.

Given that most of my instruments already have early reflections in the samples, I've since switched to ValhallaPlate as my glue reverb and I really recommend it. It's very smooth and pleasing for a subtle glue layer and to extend tails where needed. VR was just getting in the way too much for that.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 13, 2016)

I still believe that Altiverb is more inherently muddy than some other convolution reverbs. I think all the control it gives you comes at some sonic cost.


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## wbacer (Mar 13, 2016)

Piet, thank you for creating and sharing your first three SPAT videos, Excellent. As SPAT tutorials are pretty nonexistent, I really appreciate your work.
You had indicated back in August that a fourth video was on it's way. Did you ever get a chance to put that together? If so, where can we find it?


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## Den* (Mar 13, 2016)

Well, after 50 shades of grey there is 30 shades of reverb. Maybe this video can help..



I must admit Aether still holding it's place.

Reverbs in order of appearance
01:07 Dry
02:46 Valhalla Plate
04:30 Valhalla VintageVerb
06:26 Valhalla Room
07:55 PSP 2445
09:36 Waves H-Reverb
11:20 Acon Verberate
13:02 IK TR CSR Hall
14:43 Nomad Factory BlueVerb
16:30 P&M Digital Reverb
18:12 SKnote Rev250
19:53 KR Reverb TS
21:35 AudioThing Fog Convolver
23:18 Agean Music Spirit Reverb
24:59 OverLoud Spring Age
26:42 Waves IR-L
28:24 Softube TSAR-1
29:58 2caudio Aether
31:36 2caudio Breeze
33:18 2caudio B2
35:00 Eventide UltraReverb
36:40 UVI Sparkverb
38:25 D16 Toraverb
40:05 Melda MMultiReverb
41:48 U-he UBHIK-A
43:30 SKNote Stagespace
45:05 OverLoud RVB500
46:50 Klevgrand R0Verb
48:30 Logic Space Designer
50:10 Waves TrueVerb
51:55 Flux IRCAM Spat


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## Hannes_F (Mar 13, 2016)

Wow Den, what an effort!


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## Erik (Mar 13, 2016)

Why no MIR?

Joking, man what a list


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## FriFlo (Mar 13, 2016)

The thing is: by listening to a bunch of different tracks run though some reverbs, you cannot really make your decision which reverb works for you and which doesn't. You will have to really work with it on your mixes and libraries to figure it out. I'd say there is not a huge difference on what reverb you are using with mostly ambient libraries. Once you use lots of dry libraries, it has more impact and tools like spat or Mir become really great for positioning.


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## ryst (Mar 13, 2016)

re-peat said:


> As much as I like Altiverb, the choice is glaringly obvious, I’d say: SPAT. Every mixing hour of the day, every day of the week.
> 
> In short: SPAT is endlessly more versatile than anything else and also sounds better — and I mean: the sonic integrity of SPAT’s output — than just about everything else. Its only major short-coming is the fact that, in most DAW’s, it’s quite difficult to make SPAT process several sources simultaneously (due to some routing inflexibilities in the combination DAW-SPAT).
> But for single source processing, nothing even begins to comes close offering all that is possible with SPAT.
> ...



Thanks for sharing, Re-peat! I apologize for being blind but I looked on the other forum and can't find any other videos. I'd love to see them. Can you post those links here?


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## re-peat (Mar 13, 2016)

*Ryst,* here's the *link*.
*Wbacer*, yes, I did, didn't I? Thanks for reminding me. I'll get on it at once. Should be ready before this week is over.

_


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 13, 2016)

I've wanted to check out SPAT for a while after the re-peat endorsement/videos but I'm such a dope that i can't figure out how to run the demo on my iLok. I don't understand how to run a demo on an iLok bc I'm a moron. God help me w reverb then.

thanks for the videos, guys.


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## Den* (Mar 14, 2016)

Hannes_F said:


> Wow Den, what an effort!



Hi 
No I didn't created this list, I just found it.
However for the owners of Aether reverb I created new folder of "01 Classics" in the Factory menu.
I finally found some secrets, and made those presets.
You can download them from here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11769150-post1020.html
Now I use Aether like my main reverb for vocal.

There was a little secret with ER Cascade that tighten up everything so no more muddy freq.
Pure perfection and softness with nice depth.

For sharing.
Cheers


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## Hannes_F (Mar 14, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> I've wanted to check out SPAT for a while after the re-peat endorsement/videos but I'm such a dope that i can't figure out how to run the demo on my iLok. I don't understand how to run a demo on an iLok bc I'm a moron. God help me w reverb then.



You need the latest iLok license manager from www.ilok.com and then enter your ilok name here https://fluxhome.com/trial
As far as I remember the license is then automatically sent to your iLok account and you can look it up and install in the ilok license manager.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 14, 2016)

I did all that and I see it in the ilok license manager but I'm still not sure how to activate it. I contacted flux but I guess I'm just doing something wrong. I'll try again though. Thanks..!


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## Hannes_F (Mar 14, 2016)

Once you see it in your ilok license manager you need to transfer the license onto your ilok. Once it is on you should be able to start the vst in your DAW.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 16, 2016)

Got it working. Thanks, Hannes.

You guys weren't kidding. Spat is a monster. I haven't demo'ed Verb or Verb Session but what is the consensus vs Spat? I guess if the idea is to take dry-ish samples and put them in the same space maybe spat is the way to go. How does SF come into play with this? Maybe taking the close mics only? Although that kills one of the best things about Sable, etc.


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## FriFlo (Mar 16, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> Got it working. Thanks, Hannes.
> 
> You guys weren't kidding. Spat is a monster. I haven't demo'ed Verb or Verb Session but what is the consensus vs Spat? I guess if the idea is to take dry-ish samples and put them in the same space maybe spat is the way to go. How does SF come into play with this? Maybe taking the close mics only? Although that kills one of the best things about Sable, etc.


For SF libraries you don't really need spat, just any decent algorythmic reverb as glue will do, if any at all. Spat is great for mixing dry and centered samples like VSL, Sample modeling, ...


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## pmcrockett (Mar 16, 2016)

Although you don't need Spat for wet libraries, you can use those libraries as the basis for your Spat settings. I've put together some Spat presets for myself that match dry instruments to the four mic positions in the EWQL Hollywood series, and although I haven't done a full mix using them, I've been very happy with my preliminary tests.

If anyone wants to do something similar, here are some pointers:

Find out as much as you can about the target library's room size and mic distances. I was able to find the dimensions of EastWest Studio 1 online, and I was able to get an idea of mic positioning based on the broad descriptions in the manual and my general knowledge of how a session like that might be set up.
You can use the Stereo Pairs Width dials in the Setup tab to widen or narrow a soundsource until it matches your target library. Generally, you'll want narrow pairs for solo instruments and wider pairs for ensembles, and you can try muddling the positioning in a distance mic, too, by widening its stereo pair.
I find that an 80 degree aperture (which determines the angle in which the sound is considered on-axis) works well for most instruments.
If you want to set Pitch (the vertical direction of the aperture), look online for a discussion of how to mic the instrument in question, because that will tell you the direction in which the instrument projects. (Generally, woodwinds project from the finger holes, brass projects from the bell, and strings project upward.)
I ended up using the same omni and axis EQ (how the sound in the aperture differs from the sound outside of the aperture) for all my instrument presets rather than varying them on an instrument-by-instrument basis. I set omni to cut some mids and highs, left axis flat, and progressively rolled off bass in both omni and axis as the mics got farther away.
I EQ'd my source before busing it to Spat to try to come close to the target library's sound, although if I were to do the presets over again, I might try to do EQ-matching using Spat's omni/axis EQ and source brilliance/warmth sliders. At the time, at least, external EQ seemed simpler. I did still end up adjusting warmth/brilliance on some mic positions vs. others.
Balance source presence and room presence by ear based on the target library. Generally, though, close mics will be more source/less room, and distance mics will be the opposite. I also generally increased envelop. with more distant mics.
Aside from the room size (for which I had an actual accurate figure), I adjusted everything in the Reverb tab by ear to try to match the target library. I have no idea how the early reflections and clusters should be set to be "realistic" for the room; I just did what sounded good to me.
Play around with the output arrangement, panning method, etc. in Setup, because they do sound different. I like Stereo/Binaural panning/Transaural decoding/HRTF Head #1068. Try using high reverb density if you have the processing power for it.
And, obviously, set your DAW session up so that you can easily A/B the target library against your Spat settings as applied to a dry instrument.
And if you can figure the busing out in your DAW, do all of the mic positions for an instrument in a single instance of Spat rather than spreading them across however many instances. If you're creating presets for a bunch of orchestral instruments to be used at the same time, you'll still likely have to bounce to stems before mixing (I can only run a couple instances of Spat before my computer starts choking.)


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 16, 2016)

Wow, thanks.^

The last sentence is what I'm worried about. An expensive native plug w an ilok means that it is unlikely anyone is using more than one (or two) instance per section (unless you are stemming high/low strings, etc.), right?


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## pmcrockett (Mar 16, 2016)

I'm really not sure how most people use Spat, both in terms of how many instances and in terms of sections vs. individual instruments. I assume you could bus an entire (stereo mix) section to a given Spat input pair, position it appropriately in Spat, and the results would be good. This should let you use a single instance for an entire orchestra (or a few instances, depending on how many mic perspectives you're trying to do). I haven't tried this yet because I typically bounce to stems before mixing anyway.

The fact that I'm on a six-year-old i7 processor is, I'm sure, not helping things. It's worth noting that the output settings you choose have an impact on CPU load -- the Binaural setting that I like has a particularly heavy CPU footprint.


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## re-peat (Mar 17, 2016)

I can run a good ten or so instances of SPAT on my machine, although that number depends on whatever else I might have running at the same time of course. (And I can run a little more if I divide the SPAT-load between Logic and VEPro.)

As a rule — but like all of my rules, it’s not a very strict one —, libraries with baked-in spatialization don’t come anywhere near SPAT, or vice versa. (The delusion that makes one process Spitfire libraries with a spatializer of any kind or description, is something I’ll never understand.)

If the main canvas of my orchestration/arrangement/mix is Spitfire — which it often is — I’ll use SPAT to drop in, say, the VintageD, or some SampleModeling instruments or VSL woodwinds or any other other dry, naked sounds … And if I do a chamber piece — 7, 8 or 9 instruments, or any number like that — every track gets its own instance.

Only to say that just a handful of SPAT-instances, anything between 5 and 10 or thereabouts, is usually more than enough to do what I want or need to do.

(I’ve meanwhile posted that 4th video, by the way. Same location as the one linked to earlier.)

_


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 22, 2016)

When is Spat usually on sale? I think it's hard to do without it after demoing.


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## Hannes_F (Mar 23, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> When is Spat usually on sale?



Happens every year or two so far.


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## pmcrockett (Mar 23, 2016)

If I recall correctly, Flux allows license transfers, so you might be able to pick up a second-hand license for cheaper if you don't want to wait for a sale.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 23, 2016)

Only 2 days left on my trial period so I'm trying every combo of (mostly solo) orch samples and live instruments I can toss together. This software is no joke at all. I'm glueing together samples that have NEVER sat well together with normal reverbs or that TD Proximy plugin. It's making old samples have a 'life' again. I've yet to try to make things sit with SF Sable though. One thing at a time. Still just messing with the basic controls.

So, if anyone wants to sell me their license of this crappy, useless and confusing software that you really don't need, here I am.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 23, 2016)

Unfortunately, I cannot give you my SPAT NFR, which I never use because for the libraries I use, it did not bring anything to the table I liked personally.


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## Cat (Mar 23, 2016)

Hey Jay, what QL Spaces presets do you generally use for the Hollywood Orchestra diamond? Sorry, here it might not be the right thread to ask...I meant to ask you for a while.



Ashermusic said:


> Unfortunately, I cannot give you my SPAT NFR, which I never use because for the libraries I use, it did not bring anything to the table I liked personally.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 23, 2016)

Cat said:


> Hey Jay, what QL Spaces presets do you generally use for the Hollywood Orchestra diamond? Sorry, here it might not be the right thread to ask...I meant to ask you for a while.



Depends on the piece. Generally in the Instrument Specific Tour folder on auxes, So.Cal Hall TS FR 3.4.Strings for the String Bus to send to, Brass for the Brass Bus, etc. All the busses send to a little UAD Plate 140 for breathing and gloss.

Sometimes however, when I don't want as much ambience, I just use the LA Scoring Stages for all.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 24, 2016)

Is the algorithmic reverb that comes with Spat the same as Verb? If purchased from the Flux online store it comes with a license for Verb but I see no mention of that on Sweetwater's site (it's also over $200 less). If I'm spending this much on a plugin I gotta go all in.


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## pmcrockett (Mar 24, 2016)

givemenoughrope said:


> Is the algorithmic reverb that comes with Spat the same as Verb? If purchased from the Flux online store it comes with a license for Verb but I see no mention of that on Sweetwater's site (it's also over $200 less). If I'm spending this much on a plugin I gotta go all in.


My understanding is that the reverb in Spat is based on Verb, but Verb itself is a completely separate plugin. I suspect that you'd also get a Verb license from Sweetwater with Spat (I've seen other third-party sellers specifically mention the Verb license) but you'd definitely want to check with Sweetwater customer service. You might also want to check around for prices on the IRCAM Tools bundle, which includes Spat, Verb, and a handful of other things if these other things interest you -- DontCrac[k] has it for $1175 vs. $999 for only Spat/Verb.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 24, 2016)

Has anyone used any of the Trax plugins? Not sure how they'd be useful to me...but I guess I can demo them. Might be cool for vocals or misc. non-orch instruments.


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 25, 2016)

OK! Got my hands on Spat and Verb.
How are youz guys typically routing these? Lets say I have a dry string quartet. Obviously, I'll do the placement with Spat and maybe reverb 1 with ''Cluster" and "Reverb" in Verb. Or is it better to just keep everything in one instance of Spat?

There is already a night and day difference between Spat/Verb and what I've been trying to use and although I have no problem spending the time leaning this software it's only bc I'm getting useable results as I go. I spent countless hours messing with other plugins and never getting anywhere really.


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## DynamicK (Apr 25, 2016)

re-peat said:


> I can run a good ten or so instances of SPAT on my machine, although that number depends on whatever else I might have running at the same time of course.


Are you running these as inserts or sends?


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## re-peat (Apr 25, 2016)

Inserts. Being the virtual room which it is, SPAT isn't meant to be used as a send-effect.

_


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 28, 2016)

SPAT = Single Parents Alone Together


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## sinkd (Apr 28, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I still believe that Altiverb is more inherently muddy than some other convolution reverbs. I think all the control it gives you comes at some sonic cost.


I have come to the conclusion that when using Altiverb, I now do not ever change the size of the IR. This is the first parameter that starts to muddy things, as you say. I almost always use the filters to focus, and rarely use more than 20% wet on an insert. I use Altiverb mostly for classical mixing and post/dialogue editing tasks. And for weird stuff.


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## westlake79 (May 17, 2016)

For a comparison on CPU stress, I ran a test and here's what I found:

SPAT - 32 instances
resting: 22-24% CPU
playback: 23-26% CPU

ALTIVERB - 32 instances
resting: 19-20% CPU
playback: 22-23% CPU

Altiverb appears to use only slightly less CPU. However as soon as I loaded up my Altiverb presets with speaker placement, dampening, EQ -it was equal to CPU usage of SPAT. 

I also did a test with half as many instances, the CPU percentages were very close to half. Leads me to believe it scales in proportion.



pmcrockett said:


> I'm really not sure how most people use Spat, both in terms of how many instances and in terms of sections vs. individual instruments. I assume you could bus an entire (stereo mix) section to a given Spat input pair, position it appropriately in Spat, and the results would be good. This should let you use a single instance for an entire orchestra (or a few instances, depending on how many mic perspectives you're trying to do). I haven't tried this yet because I typically bounce to stems before mixing anyway.
> 
> The fact that I'm on a six-year-old i7 processor is, I'm sure, not helping things. It's worth noting that the output settings you choose have an impact on CPU load -- the Binaural setting that I like has a particularly heavy CPU footprint.


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## Phryq (Jun 2, 2017)

Ok, so SPAT should be used as an insert, 100% wet? I've always done verb as a send, so inserting it will feel strange.

Last I tried it on Embertone violin, it made it sound a bit phasy, but maybe it had to do with being a send, or maybe it's meant to sound that way (like, ensemble strings phasy).

I also had an issue that I would click setting, and my click wouldn't register for 20 seconds...


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## tack (Jun 2, 2017)

SPAT is for spatial positioning. You don't use those kinds of plugins as sends (where you mix dry signal).


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## Phryq (Jun 3, 2017)

Ok, so what I'm doing is routing to the SPAT channel as a 'send', but I'm disabling the 'send to master track'. It looks like SPAT can accept 16 mono channels, or 8 stereo, which I guess is enough. I just can't get over this slowness glitch. Maybe a problem with my download.

Any tutorials online? I'm searching but not finding anything good.


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## tack (Jun 3, 2017)

Phryq said:


> Ok, so what I'm doing is routing to the SPAT channel as a 'send', but I'm disabling the 'send to master track'. It looks like SPAT can accept 16 mono channels, or 8 stereo, which I guess is enough.


Ah, that makes sense. And it's probably the _only_ way to do it when you want to use a single instance of SPAT to spatialize multiple tracks.



Phryq said:


> I just can't get over this slowness glitch. Maybe a problem with my download.


I'm afraid I don't have SPAT to check, although when I tried the 30 day demo a couple years back I didn't run into this.

I understand you're using Reaper -- it's a long shot, but maybe try experimenting with different bridging options? (If you don't already know, in the FX list you can right-click the VST, and under the Run As menu choose between separate, dedicated, and native. You'll have to reload the plugin for it to take effect. Toggling offline/online is good enough.)


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## Phryq (Jun 4, 2017)

tack said:


> Ah, that makes sense. And it's probably the _only_ way to do it when you want to use a single instance of SPAT to spatialize multiple tracks.
> 
> 
> I'm afraid I don't have SPAT to check, although when I tried the 30 day demo a couple years back I didn't run into this.
> ...



Oh, good advice. I tried it as a "separate process" and it goes faster, but still very laggy. It's unusable, as I still don't know how to work it, and clicking a button and waiting 10 seconds is just... too painful.


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## xaviduch (Jun 4, 2017)

Ok, This libraries may be wet or dry, partially wet, or partially dry! (uff..I know...)so in many cases, you can be absoluty amazed with the, for example, Berlin woodwins stuff and you want to blend it with Sample modeling brass section or, N.I Symphony brass (it's an example!!) .

In this case, you will note than Berlin WW it has been recorded in Teldex studio, in Berlin.N.I Symphony brass, in a nice church...and Sample modeling (I love them)it's completly dry. So...and here we go, you can use Altiverb with IR of Teldex studio to use as an insert for Sample modeling stuff, because we are trying to emulate Berlin WW sound, if we want use that reverb as a reference of our main goal.

You can do it carefully, cos ER from Altiverb and it's tale I found never sounds like Berlin WW setup. I remove the tale, I use just the ER and positioning whatever you want (I like to emulate the John Williams scoring positions)but I found coloration and phase problems...practice youself and you will get a very good simulation,but you may prefer to do it with Spat. In this case, you will not have these phase problems at the start...you can adjust settings like absortion, ER time and hall presence/source presence to match
the Teldex sound but without its tale, just the position of the instrument in the hall with its own simulated ER.All this as an INSERT. Finally, the N.I Symphony brass series, caoems with a beautiful and baked tale.You have some mics control, but in some cases, you need to play with the release samples to cutoff the long tale that is included with the original release instrument...(most libraries sounds fantastic, but when we want to make our own melodic phrases, you can find playability problems, it just depends of its programation).
With that libray, you can feel it sound it's smooth, big and beautiful, and blend very well with the Berlin WW but...


All this as an INSERT.

Final process, the master reverb! I use Quantum Leap SPACES cos it's...amazing! You can use it as a send as a FX Channel (Adjusting input of source very low or zero) or put it as an insert in the stereo master channels.The first option could be a massive tons of resources for your machine and could be very picky setting the differents levels for every section.The second one, if you have your inserts ok, this will be more well balanced and natural at the end.Years ago, to use 3 sends for ER for close, middle and far distance was ok! but actually, with this libraries and others, with everyone with its own character, it's more difficult to achieve.So yor master reverb its about your taste, but you need to feel the glue of the all instruments, stage positioning and avoiding phase problems BEFORE you put the final reverb at the end of the process.

I am spending a lot of days trying to make this works and finally I think I am very close to get it...

Obviously there are a lot of different options, reverbs, EQ'S for single instruments and different libraries etc etc, but I hope with this simple example you can understand if you are more comftable with Spat, Altiverb, another log reverb, B2, Silverspike R2 etc etc

Cheers!


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## Phryq (Jun 4, 2017)

How would you achieve this with B2?


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## xaviduch (Jun 4, 2017)

Phryq said:


> How would you achieve this with B2?


Hello again!

Well, B2,as many other reverb plugins, has the option to "hide" the tale...I know, Altiverb has its own tale and ER buttons, very ease..B2 not, but, even I don't use it a lot, you need first and once you find the reverb sound you are looking for, to adjust first the balance control, to avoid hearing the full tale and to get more control just about the ER's.
Then, set the mix control to WET, because we need to avoid the dry sound completly, at least with Sample modeling stuff, of coarse...TIME and SIZE control of the A and B reverb engines, must be adjusted with low levels to get that ER sound of the room, so it must be short..there are 1000 details you can prefer, it's about taste, but once you have the dry sound avoided, and you feel that instrument placed "into" the room, you can then adjust diffusion etc to get the coloration wanted. 
Once you have this, as an insert, you can send this signal via FX send to your favorite master reverb.Spaces it's amazing! but almost no control about reverb parameters, it's a plugin with its own purpose different to the others...


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## Phryq (Jun 5, 2017)

So I'm wondering, for example if you're mixing Berlin woodwind soloists with sample modelling / Christ Hein / Embertone. From dry to wet they would be

Sample Modeling
Chris Hein
Embertone
Berlin (close mics)

Right? Now if I put them all in SPAT (or if I give them all the same ER) some will be naturally farther back than others, which I guess is fine, but will it cause other problems? Maybe I need to make the ER 100% on Sample Modeling and Chris Hein, but only 50% on Embertone and Berlin? Or in SPAT, push the Sample Modeling a little further back?

Usually I have the ER and LR on different sends, and EQ them differently (I high pass the LR more than the ER). With B2 the problem (well, extra feature really) is that it can cascade the ER/LR, which is lost having them on different tracks.

I'd like to try your idea, which is basically use SPAT for ER, and then add a tail using something else (AltiVerb or B2).


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## xaviduch (Jun 5, 2017)

Phryq said:


> So I'm wondering, for example if you're mixing Berlin woodwind soloists with sample modelling / Christ Hein / Embertone. From dry to wet they would be
> 
> Sample Modeling
> Chris Hein
> ...



Yes!

The idea is to avoid some kind of tale than you wont, if it's affecting the perception to your ears than it comes from "another" place...with dry samples it's more easy to do it.I must say than this is a large road to test and response (action /reaction) and after spending a lot of time (too much) there are ER's from some devices working better for some kind of sounds, even them including a part of the tale.

Orchestral tools are superb, but if you want to have 1 french horn loaded with all mic positions, I think we are talking about almost 3GB per FH! x 4=12GB, and you will put the trumpets section, trombons, tuba...Imagine! You need at least 3 machines via VEP..but it's possible. I must say than Berlin brass mic section is different to the WW section, and inside Woodwins, you don't have the same control for piccolo than bassoo...so it's a little tricky.

I get very good results with Berlin woodwins with TREE mics and a bit of close mics with a master reverb in the stereo channel almost with direct input to zero...but Spat, with close mics from Berli WW and moving the position around 180 degrees, you feel good sensations too..the problem is to do all this things with many different libraries...

Musical sampling are friendly of resources, versatility and playable, but it doesn't offers the same crisp than Berlin trombones or Cinebrass stuff..all depends what kind of sound are you looking for...

After try to imitate the hall response of John Williams setup on stage, I recomend you this superb-amazing song of Thomas Bergensen as a reference of REAL samples (not real orchestra).
Quantum leap Spaces are great as master reverb, B2 is amazing as alg.reverb, I love it! Phoenixverb give me a nice sensation with 8dio strings...but the best option, honestly my friend, I still I am looking for!

In a few days I will upload a short piece for testing the template and I will explain something more, I hope!

Greetings from Barcelona! 

p.s (I apologize for my English..I don't use any translator, so as I speak, I write)


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