# TDKR, really?????



## EastWest Lurker (Jun 21, 2013)

So believe it or not, I just watched The Dark Knight Rises for the first time tonight. 

What the _hell_ was all the fuss about? Tedious and pretentious IMHO. 

2:45 long for a story that could easily have been told in an hour less. Trying to give gravitas to a comic book hero as if he were a character in a Tolstoy, Goethe, or Thomas Mann novel. Best thing about it was Joseph Gordon Leavitt. who went to high school with my daughter.

BTW, was Batman really so stupid that with the fate of Gotham at stake he did not realize it might actually be wise to use a weapon with the bad guy instead of fist fighting him? Who is he, Mike Tyson ? Even the Catwoman character got that right.

Man, I hope Man Of Steel is better than this was.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 21, 2013)

Well no surprises that I agree with you, and for much of the same reasons (which lay behind my "I blame Christopher Nolan" thread). Thing is, I loved Inception, greatly admired Momento, and can certainly appreciate the craft in the Batman trilogy so I do absolutely get how talented the fellow is. But the whole trilogy left me cold, they made little / no sense and the final part seemed particularly joyless and pretentious.


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## Resoded (Jun 22, 2013)

I think the batman begins was great, the dark knight rises was incredible. But yeah, they dropped the ball a bit on dark knight rises. There are a few holes in the story. I bought the blu ray release and appreciated it more the second and third time I saw it, trying to look beyond the weird moments.

Honest trailers did a great job btw (for those who have already seen the movie):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQJuGeqdbn4


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## TheUnfinished (Jun 22, 2013)

This doesn't happen often Jay, but I totally agree with you. Given the promise of Batman Begins and the general enjoyable energy of The Dark Knight, TDKR is a horrible, silly mess of a film. Not unenjoyable, but it makes so little sense that you are left outside of it rather than being drawn in.

And again (the horror, the horror), you are right about Joseph Gordon Levitt being the person who comes out of it with least egg on their face. A terrific actor.


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## Lex (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> So believe it or not, I just watched The Dark Knight Rises for the first time tonight.
> 
> What the _hell_ was all the fuss about? Tedious and pretentious IMHO.
> 
> ...



Beats me if I get your etiquette or moral compass. What happened with_ "..if you don't have anything good to say better not to say anything at all.." _ that you preach all the time around here Mr. Asher? I mean, you just bashed the krap out of at least directors and writers hard work (not to mention 100s of other people who worked on it). 

alex


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## Consona (Jun 22, 2013)

@ EastWest Lurker: I think Man of Steel will drive you crazy. :lol: But wait, you liked Into Darkness, so I don't really know. But MoS is nothing like 1978 Superman.


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## mark812 (Jun 22, 2013)

First one is the weakest to me.

My opinion: 

_Batman Begins_ - 7
_The Dark Knight_ - 10
_The Dark Knight Rises_ - 9

_Inception_ and _The Prestige_ are still my Nolan favorites, however I'm sure that the upcoming _Interstellar_ will change that.


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## mark812 (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> What the _hell_ was all the fuss about? Tedious and pretentious IMHO.



There are always shitty Tim Burton's Batmans which aren't.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 22, 2013)

Jay,

You are very unlikely to like Man of Steel. I thought the movie was a bit disconnected and while it has its moments, I fear they have once again missed the opportunity to resurrect the superman story. I did not care much for the last one either. Superman Returns. Same problem. 

I am 29 but may sound older in saying that there was too much vfx, sfx and bashing, blasting. It seemed a bit weird, specially the last 30 mins. I even heard a few audience members laughing in the cinema specially during the last fight sequences. 


The score is fantastic and its a completely new sonic world. I heard bits of the score before I went for the movie and it was nice to hear and see how it all worked. 

Unfortunately, the score was not mixed to my taste but it could possibly not have been mixed in any other way. There is too much going on with the visuals and the sound effects. There are many great parts just buried under a heavy and loud sound design - once again only because the visuals, the movie is asking for it. I saw it in Dolby ATMOS so the sound separation was better.

I liked TDKR, perhaps not as much as TDK but it was still a good movie for me at least. I really liked Bane's character and Tom Hardy did a fantastic job. Michael Cane was amazing - I loved his on location sound for the dialogues in the Wayne house. nice detailing. 

It is very difficult to end a trilogy in a manner which is satisfactory for everyone. The story has moved on from the earlier Batman films and in a way seems like a new movie while of course, there are many threads in the story from the earlier films and of course its very connected but Mr. Nolan took a leap into another direction for this one.

As did Hans to an extent, some material is not present in TDKR while many have been used in places least expected and it all works nicely. Sonically, the score was fantastic once again. Hans uses Synth in a way I have not heard before. Some how, it all sounds organic as well. There is no unnecessary synth work going on - its all the right things and very graceful.

Sorry to hear you did not like the TDKR but I quite enjoyed watching it. 


Tanuj.


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## Rctec (Jun 22, 2013)

Jay, I think it's you that's pretentious by throwing in names like Goethe and Thomas Mann, when the obvious reference is the pulp fiction of Dickens. Ever read "Tales Of Two Cities"? (Did you really not even get the quotes?). Those were the comic books of their time. You might have despised the movie enough to rant, which I curiously find revealing and satisfying in equal measure, but - since you missed it - the subtext throughout is: put down your weapons and solve the problems of this world through intelligent discourse, science, social and financial fairness - as opposed to some 18th century juvenile cowboy philosophy of solving conflict by drawing a gun. in other words: Bruce Wayne, grow up, become civilized man. That might not be the most obvious premise to base a Hollywood summer blockbuster on, but it's bang on the character that Chris created, and, at least we tried to have a little ambition and a bit of provocative substance, just a hint that there might still be intelligent life in screen-writing of summer blockbusters. And yes, we are always guilty of throwing in a kitchen sink of ideas. But it's our process, and it does seem to resonate with enough people to keep us going...
It was a nine year journey for us, and, as you know with a lot of personal human tragedy attached. Show us a little understanding for at least having some ambition to say something, and please don't call us pretentious if some of our European background colours our vision of an American comic book. Growing up, Goethe, Schiller, Mann and Dickens where my comic books. No more, no less.
And yes, you are going to loath MOS, so don't bother...
P.S., why is it that so much of the American Superhero music is based on German classical music?
-H-


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## valexnerfarious (Jun 22, 2013)

Rctec @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Jay, I think it's you that's pretentious by throwing in names like Goethe and Thomas Mann, when the obvious reference is the pulp fiction of Dickens. Ever read "Tales Of Two Cities"? (Did you really not even get the quotes?). Those where the comic books of their time. You might have despised the movie enough to rant, which I curiously find revealing and satisfying in equal measure, but - since you missed it - the subtext throughout is: put down your weapons and solve the problems of this world through intelligent discourse, science, social and financial fairness - as opposed to some 18th century juvenile cowboy philosophy of solving conflict by drawing a gun. in other words: Bruce Wayne, grow up, become civilized man. That might not be the most obvious premise to base a Hollywood summer blockbuster on, but it's bang on the character that Chris created, and, at least we tried to have a little ambition and a bit of provocative substance, just a hint that there might still be intelligent life in screen-writing of summer blockbusters. And yes, we are always guilty of throwing in a kitchen sink of ideas. But it's our process, and it does seem to resonate with enough people to keep us going...
> It was a nine year journey for us, and, as you know with a lot of personal human tragedy attached. Show us a little understanding for at least having some ambition to say something, and please don't call us pretentious if some of our European background colours our vision of an American comic book. Growing up, Goethe, Schiller, Mann and Dickens where my comic books. No more, no less.
> And yes, you are going to loath MOS, so don't bother...
> P.S., why is it that so much of the American Superhero music is based on German classical music?
> -H-


LMAO..."loath MOS"


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 22, 2013)

Well this is fun....

It really overlaps the other thread I started, but hey we're here now. The ambition behind TDK series is evident, the craft is exemplary. And of course RC you're right that it resonates with plenty of folks, and there are many, many passionate admirers to the tune of billions of dollars. So any whining by any of us here on an off topic forum seems churlish. But....

I guess it's not a direction I enjoy in blockbusters, or more specifically what I perceive to be family blockbusters, at least conceptually. I watched TDKR in the middle of working on the Olympic Games last summer, and I couldn't help be struck at what a thoroughly miserable time I'd had at the pictures, and what a thoroughly amazing time I was having outside of them. It kinda seemed the wrong way round - isn't this sort of film about fantasy, escapism from the drudgery and misery of everyday life and, well, fun? The 70s, 80s and 90s seemed to be an era when family blockbusters certainly had craft and ambition (including at script level), but they didn't seem so weighed down by the desire to be so oppressively dark and humourless (though admittedly I did like some of the jet black humour of the remarkable Joker character in TDK). Come to think of it, even the grown up action films were more fun - Die Hard, The Rock, Con Air, True Lies - all rich with comedy. Mostly intentioned, I think.

I guess I like a popcorn movie that knows its a popcorn movie. Some of my favourite films are dark, miserable, introspective etc... but not blockbusters. If I'm seeing a superhero flick, I want some laughs, some gasps, some characters to boo and others to cheer for and an extra large salted. I don't necessarily equate darkness of vision or ambition with merit.

I suspect, like all things, that things will turn full circle eventually.


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## Consona (Jun 22, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> I suspect, like all things, that things will turn full circle eventually.


http://youtu.be/zbRpnn_myMM


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Rctec @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Jay, I think it's you that's pretentious by throwing in names like Goethe and Thomas Mann, when the obvious reference is the pulp fiction of Dickens. Ever read "Tales Of Two Cities"? (Did you really not even get the quotes?). Those where the comic books of their time. You might have despised the movie enough to rant, which I curiously find revealing and satisfying in equal measure, but - since you missed it - the subtext throughout is: put down your weapons and solve the problems of this world through intelligent discourse, science, social and financial fairness - as opposed to some 18th century juvenile cowboy philosophy of solving conflict by drawing a gun. in other words: Bruce Wayne, grow up, become civilized man. That might not be the most obvious premise to base a Hollywood summer blockbuster on, but it's bang on the character that Chris created, and, at least we tried to have a little ambition and a bit of provocative substance, just a hint that there might still be intelligent life in screen-writing of summer blockbusters. And yes, we are always guilty of throwing in a kitchen sink of ideas. But it's our process, and it does seem to resonate with enough people to keep us going...
> It was a nine year journey for us, and, as you know with a lot of personal human tragedy attached. Show us a little understanding for at least having some ambition to say something, and please don't call us pretentious if some of our European background colours our vision of an American comic book. Growing up, Goethe, Schiller, Mann and Dickens where my comic books. No more, no less.
> And yes, you are going to loath MOS, so don't bother...
> P.S., why is it that so much of the American Superhero music is based on German classical music?
> -H-



I applaud Nolan's ambition. (You say "we", but on IMDB you are only listed as the composer. If you were also involved in creating the story as well and I knew that, I would not have commented.) 

I loved "Inception. But please, Mr. Nolan let Batman and Superman be just Batman and Superman.

I grew up with comic books. They were fun. They were for kids primarily, though no doubt some adult still enjoyed them.

I also read a lot of Dickens as a teen ager and loved his books. ButI am not sure kids read them even when they were first serialized. But the idea of trying to turn a comic book super hero into Sydney Carlton is, again just IMHO, misguided and it did not work. For the very little I know my saying this is worth, i did think the score served the picture as much as it could.

And btw, I loved Goethe, Mann, and Tolstoy when I read them in college, some of the finest literature I have ever read, but comic books they are not.

What next "The Cancer Ward: The Musical" ?


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## steb74 (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> What next "The Cancer Ward: The Musical" ?


Stay classy! :roll:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> I guess it's not a direction I enjoy in blockbusters, or more specifically what I perceive to be family blockbusters, at least conceptually.
> 
> I guess I like a popcorn movie that knows its a popcorn movie. Some of my favourite films are dark, miserable, introspective etc... but not blockbusters. If I'm seeing a superhero flick, I want some laughs, some gasps, some characters to boo and others to cheer for and an extra large salted. I don't necessarily equate darkness of vision or ambition with merit.



You have stated my feelings better than I did, Guy.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Lex @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > So believe it or not, I just watched The Dark Knight Rises for the first time tonight.
> ...



That is my attitude on composers toward fellow composers in a composers forum. Directors, producers, politicians, baseball and basketball teams other than the Boston Red Sox and Celtics are all fair game here in the Off Topics forum


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## Consona (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> I loved "Inception. But please, Mr. Nolan let Batman and Superman be just Batman and Superman.


I think this is some kind of selective reductionism. What is _just Batman_ or _just Superman_? There are some lighthearted Batman and Superman comic books but there are some pretty serious.

I think Nolan's Batman is not something you could not find in the comic books. And for me, personally, the more realistic character the more empathy I can feel towards him.

My opinion:

BB - The best batman film to it's date. Good overall film.
TDK - One of the best films I know.
TDKR - I need to watch BB again to decide.

and MoS well... The ideas in the film were great but none of them was elaborated to point they deserved, imo.
But an action in this film is really something. Other comic books films are not even close. The problem is main hero is nearly invincible so it's hard to feel some deeper empathy, but action is visceral, not sterile like in some other big action films.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Consona @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > I loved "Inception. But please, Mr. Nolan let Batman and Superman be just Batman and Superman.
> ...



Respectfully, in what universe does a guy battling evil doers in a cape and a mask and the word "realistic" even belong in the same sentence?


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## Consona (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Consona @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> ...



If you are reffering to this sentence: _"And for me, personally, the more realistic character the more empathy I can feel towards him."_ maybe I used wrong word? I meant I can feel empathy towards Nolan's Batman but I somewhat cannot to Schumacher's. Does it make sense?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

How do you empathize with a comic book character who is a handsome uber-rich guy moonlighting as a superhero battling crime with a crisis in self-confidence in _anyone's_ version?

To empathize (not sympathize perhaps) with a character, I have to believe there is actually someone walking around who is remotely like the character. There is not.


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## Consona (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> How do you empathize with a comic book character who is a handsome uber-rich guy moonlighting as a superhero battling crime with a crisis in self-confidence in _anyone's_ version?
> 
> To empathize (not sympathize perhaps) with a character, I have to believe there is actually someone walking around who is remotely like the character. There is not.


Because things he tries to solve are deeply human no matter how rich or handsome you are. But you've raised interesting point I'm gonna think about that.


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## Lex (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Lex @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> ...



Wow, is this an American thing and we'r talking cultural differences or this is just you being a hypocrite? I mean, you are saying that it's ok to publicly rant and bash someones work ( just because it wasn't your thing or you didn't understand it) as long as you make sure to do it behind their back? You do realize this is a public forum?

alex


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

I did it on Facebook as well.

Once again, I view composers dissing their fellow working composers differently than commenting on a film in an Off Topics forum. I don't see it as hypocrisy. If i were a director in a director's forum, I would not have posted it.

And please on't blame Americans for my P.O.V. It is frequently as out of sync with their views as it is with Europeans.


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## Lex (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> I did it on Facebook as well.
> 
> Once again, I view composers dissing their fellow working composers differently than commenting on a film in an Off Topics forum. I don't see it as hypocrisy. If i were a director in a director's forum, I would not have posted it.
> 
> And please on't blame Americans for my P.O.V. It is frequently as out of sync with their views as it is with Europeans.



Not blaming anyone, just asking to understand. 

alex


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## Consona (Jun 22, 2013)

Conversations like these make me feel I'm missing some big points in my life, when there are threads saying Into Darkness is amazing film and Nolan's Batman is somewhat stupidly produced. Just don't know...


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## Dean (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> That is my attitude on composers toward fellow composers in a composers forum. Directors, producers, politicians, baseball and basketball teams other than the Boston Red Sox and Celtics are all fair game here in the Off Topics forum




You know Jay I preferred it when you were just defending Play,since that has died down your posts of late seem to a have taken on a much darker tone,kinda like TDKR? 

D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2013)

Back when I bought comics regularly, in the 70's, when they only cost 15¢, my favourites were dark. I liked Claremont's X-Men, Miller's Daredevil and Batman. I think that 14-20 year olds like the dark stuff, the edge in their comics/movies, and that's fine. The problem, respectfully (I have no children), is when parents allow young children to see the current crop of superhero movies. These are really intended for teenagers, young adults and those with a young heart/mind who can take the edgy stuff. As for the dark tone, it just unfortunately mirrors our world.

Oh and I liked number 2 the best, and think that number three was too long. The trilogy as a whole is very impressive, blows away any competition, especially when it comes to the soundtrack, and the viewers are not being treated like babies.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Consona @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Conversations like these make me feel I'm missing some big points in my life, when there are threads saying Into Darkness is amazing film and Nolan's Batman is somewhat stupidly produced. Just don't know...



i didn't say Into Darkness was "amazing." I said it was great fun, which TDKR was not.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Dean @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > That is my attitude on composers toward fellow composers in a composers forum. Directors, producers, politicians, baseball and basketball teams other than the Boston Red Sox and Celtics are all fair game here in the Off Topics forum
> ...



Clearly, a fiendishly clever ploy on my part on behalf of EW.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> If I were to live 1000 years, I still would never understand the upside of relatively unaccomplished people discussing highly accomplished people's work as if they were peers.
> 
> It is bizzarro world to me.



You have directed a summer blockbuster? 



EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jun 14 said:


> givemenoughrope @ Fri Jun 14 said:
> 
> 
> > There's nothing to understand. It's called having an opinion. Whatever.
> ...



I know you are going to say that you meant composers, but you can't have it both ways. Hans may not have been part of the filmmaking aspect, but he did participate in an important aspect of film making: furthering the character development through music.

I edited this as I realized I sounded way harsher than I wanted it to be. I enjoy debating with Jay, but my remarks went beyond debate. I apologize Jay o-[][]-o


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 22, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Consona @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Conversations like these make me feel I'm missing some big points in my life, when there are threads saying Into Darkness is amazing film and Nolan's Batman is somewhat stupidly produced. Just don't know...
> ...



I'd agree.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> As for the dark tone, it just unfortunately mirrors our world.



Exactly which is the core question: Are these movies not supposed to be"escapist" fare, as Guy and I maintain?

We live in a dangerous and frequently dark world. We always have, of course, but we were not bombarded by it 24/7 onCNN.

Why were musicals so popular during WW II? People needed movies that helped them forget the dark reality.

STID does precisely that, the original Batman and Superman films, silly though they perhaps were, did that. So did the original Bond films. So did the original Star Trek films. So did the Star Wars series and Indiana Jones movies, except for the second one, which Spielberg later apologized for making it "too dark."

As The Beach Boys sang: "And we'll have fun, fun, fun till her daddy takes the T-bird away."

This is usually where omeone ays to me, "Go bak tobed, Grandpa."


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2013)

Actually, not all teenagers want to escape when watching movies. Some actually want to learn something, like when they read Lord Of The Flies. It's possible that they have less to escape from than some of us older folks (bills, health issues, broken hearts, failed marriages, etc)


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Actually, not all teenagers want to escape when watching movies. Some actually want to learn something, like when they read Lord Of The Flies. It's possible that they have less to escape from than some of us older folks (bills, health issues, broken hearts, failed marriages, etc)



Indeed, and there are movies for that, but is that what superhero movies should be? Should Bob Kane be William Golding?


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## George Caplan (Jun 22, 2013)

ralph from lord of the flies was and is still a good friend of mine. :wink:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jun 22, 2013)

Comic book superheroes have really evolved, become much more complex since the late 60s, especially with the graphic novels of the early 80s. What you're seeing/reading today is just the logical evolution of a genre that is always pushing the envelope of what defines a comic book story or character.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Comic book superheroes have really evolved, become much more complex since the late 60s, especially with the graphic novels of the early 80s. What you're seeing/reading today is just the logical evolution of a genre that is always pushing the envelope of what defines a comic book story or character.



They have indeed changed, but I am not sure it is evolution


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## Greg (Jun 22, 2013)

I loved it.. I think to really appreciate it, you had to always have in the back of your head who Bruce really is and where he comes from, why he is doing what he's doing, . The plot in TDKR is very ambitious, so much so that it takes over almost the entire movie and loses touch with Batman's roots. It starts to come full circle a little bit at the end but not quite enough throughout.


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## jleckie (Jun 22, 2013)

I loved the movie so much - I saw it 3 times.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

jleckie @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> I loved the movie so much - I saw it 3 times.



Wow, that's app. 8 hours


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## robh (Jun 22, 2013)

I liked all three.

Rob


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## chimuelo (Jun 22, 2013)

Grandpa hit the nail this time around. 8)


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 22, 2013)

Thank you Jimmy. Grandpa and his wife of 37 years are watching "Robot and Frank" with a single malt scotch.

Not a bd life, eh?


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## G.R. Baumann (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> *.... pretentious.... *
> 
> ... Best thing about it was Joseph Gordon Leavitt. who went to high school with my daughter....



:lol:


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## Lex (Jun 23, 2013)

G.R. Baumann @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > *.... pretentious.... *
> ...



LOL


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## RasmusFors (Jun 23, 2013)

There are plenty of superhero movies which are light in tone and fun for the family. Therefore I find tdk trilogy very refreshing. It's a superhero story without crazy aliens and magic. It's grounded in reality, with more focus on the story than the fight scenes.
It's good to have some variation in the superhero-blockbusters, and I think tdk did a perfect job of demonstrating that.


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## Hannes_F (Jun 23, 2013)

I skipped this movie because judging from the trailers I thought it was all about violence. You know, that sort of violence of the villain that then justifies more violence of the hero (yawn). This thread actually changed my mind, I'll watch it.


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## Daniel James (Jun 23, 2013)

-DJ


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 23, 2013)

RasmusFors @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> There are plenty of superhero movies which are light in tone and fun for the family.



There are? Name a few (rated PG or G).


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## RasmusFors (Jun 23, 2013)

> There are? Name a few (rated PG or G).



Well I didn't keep your american ratings in mind, so if you count it that way then I can't name any. But honestly, if I had a 7 years old, I would not hesitate to show him/her avengers or spiderman even if they are pg13. Here in sweden our ratings are more liberal, so you will often see families go out and enjoy the latest captain america (or whatever).


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## Per Lichtman (Jun 23, 2013)

Okay, I'll bite and way in on this one a bit. Get ready for another lengthy bit of indulgent rambling on my part. 

First of all, several of the guys I grew up with were especially passionate about comic books. A couple of us spent some time working at comic book stores when we were in middle school. We read them, watched the animated series and occasionally even got to watch a movie. This was all before the first X-Men movie but still in the 90s.

Anyway, at that point in time the only mainstream superhero movies were the Bathman ones. Danny Elfman and Elliot Goldenthal were a big part of the reason why I enjoyed Batman and Batman Forever, respectively. But my friends and I (like so many others) really hated Batman & Robin - it was the first movie I could remember being truly disappointed with as a kid.

When I heard about Batman Begins, I originally did not know that Nolan was directing (which was important because I was in the habit of watching Memento more than any other movie made around that time), so I was left to think "why are they getting rid of the series that was working so well?" All I wanted them to do at that point was to erase the bad taste of Batman & Robin and keep the franchise going. I didn't know Hans Zimmer would be co-scoring but I did know that Elliot Goldenthal wouldn't be so I was resistant.

I waited far too long after the film came out to finally see it. And when I did, Nolan and Zimmer had completely convinced me of the validity of their interpretation through the excellent execution of their work. It did not replace Batman Forever: it was entirely different and succeeded beautifully in what it set out to be and convinced me in the process that this was a world I wanted to see more of.

TDK was darker but equally engaging, if not more so.

Then TDKR came out and the issue of having grown up with a bit of a comic book nerd side really made it almost impossible for me to enjoy it in the same way as I believe many others could. You see, if you read Knightfall in the 90s or pretty much any prior interpretation of Bane, the character could not have been much further removed (ethnically, visually, personality-wise, speech-wise, etc.) from the character that appeared in the film while being at all recognizable. I mean, the character was a violent South-American prisoner, drug-addict known for a combination of ambition, impulse-control problems and (among other things) murdering prostitutes in frustration (at least in the print novelization). Am I saying that's the character to have as the star villain in a PG-13 film? Not at all, but it was the only character in the trilogy where they felt entirely divorced from the comic book to me and that made me uneasy for the whole film.

Suddenly the character was speaking in elevated diction, with a western European accent. He made speeches. He talked politics and philosophy. Such things would have made perfect sense coming from The Silver Surfer or Doctor Strange, but how could the character be called Bane and act so very differently? It was cognitive dissonance for me and so very frustrating because of how fully convinced I had been by essentially every major interpretive aspect of the previous two Batman films.

In all fairness, the standard set in TDK (in terms of acting, directing and music) was so high that it would have been difficult for any third installment to exceed it. And all other performances (from Bale's consistent characterization, to Caine's emotion, to Anne Hathaway's amazing style, to Levitt's dimension, etc., etc.) were of such a quality that I had to notice it, despite my issues with the film - and while I preferred the music in both TDK and Batman Forever (I'm odd that way) I really enjoyed that Zimmer's music remained so high quality (though I have to say that HZ really outdid himself with the MOS score, which is my favorite since Inception).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that each person's experience of a film, of what is "critical" to a film is so very personal. For me, a re-working of Bane more in sync with the comics would have made the movie amazing - but for others it could have ruined it completely. I still enjoy re-watching Batman Forever, but others find it too campy.

In the end a lot of this comes more down to personal taste than it does matters of quality. I'll happily take 1 out of 3 films that I don't connect with as much to get the other two that so thoroughly excited and convinced me.


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## Per Lichtman (Jun 23, 2013)

@RasmusFors I USA brukar det vara så att man kan ha ungefär hur mycket våld man vill så länge som man inte ser blod, men man får inte visa någon naken eller så blir det "Rated R" nästan genast nu för tiden. T ex var "American Paj" "Rated R" i Los Angeles medans man kan kunde gå se den som barn i Stockholm. Men det finns filmer som du säjer.

@Guy Rowland Here are a few superhero movies that did not not get PG13 or higher ratings (and while some of them predate the PG13 rating, I think all of them could get PG if they wanted to, today).

1951	Superman and the Mole Men (*Approved*)
1966	Batman (PG)
1978 Superman (PG)
1980 Superman II (PG)
1983 Superman III (PG)
1987 Superman IV: The Quest for Peace (PG)

And then in 1989, things kind of change with Batman getting PG-13. But the superhero movies aimed PG or lower continue.

1990	Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (PG)
1991	Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Secret of the Ooze (PG)
1991 The Rocketeer (PG)
1993	Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III (PG)
1995 Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie (PG)
1996 The Phantom (PG)

And that's pretty much the turning point. After 1996, the super-hero movies generally targeted a PG-13 rating or R rating.

Later on Rodriguez follows-up the Spy Kids series with a more super-hero oriented outing in 2005's "The Adventures of Sharkboy and Lavagirl in 3-D", but the era of new PG or G super-hero movie seems to have largely gone on hiatus for the time being.


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## Ed (Jun 23, 2013)

I think its because kids grew up and wanted more adult versions of their childhood films. Kinda like how games used to be more innocent and sweet


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> I edited this as I realized I sounded way harsher than I wanted it to be. I enjoy debating with Jay, but my remarks went beyond debate. I apologize Jay o-[][]-o



No problem, I understand heat of the moment.


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## Inductance (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jun 21 said:


> BTW, was Batman really so stupid that with the fate of Gotham at stake he did not realize it might actually be wise to use a weapon with the bad guy instead of fist fighting him?



He wasn't stupid, he had principles and he stuck to them no matter what. He wasn't "stupid" for this. If anything, he was "stupid" because he thought he could single-handedly bring about a better Gotham. btw, even if he had armed himself to the teeth and killed bad guys every night, he wouldn't have succeeded. 

As a Batman fan, I've thoroughly enjoyed all of Nolan's Dark Knight films. They are what I always imagined film versions of the character should be. The writers of the comic books take the character seriously, and I'm glad they did the same for the films. If I were to do a film on Character A, then shouldn't I try my best to make the best possible interpretation of this character? I don't think it would be fair for me to say, "Come on, this is a comic book character, so I won't take it too seriously." If that's my attitude, then why bother making the film? IMO, Nolan (and HZ with the music) hit it out of the park. 

But I guess it's always a preference thing. We are all free to like or not! Plenty of films for all of us out there. :mrgreen:


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 23, 2013)

Ed @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> I think its because kids grew up and wanted more adult versions of their childhood films. Kinda like how games used to be more innocent and sweet



I think it's also that it is also more acceptable for adults to enjoy things that were once seen as just "kids" fare. I think superhero movies have to be very careful about what kind of villains they portray and the story lines involved. Things that work in a comic book do not always translate well to movies.

There is a great quote from Spinal Tap, "There is a fine line between clever and stupid."

In my opinion, most comic book stories would end up looking quite stupid on screen. Marvel has perfected the art of marrying the comic book feel with today's audiences expectations. DC has chosen a grittier feel it seems, even though MOS seemed to be a perfect blend of Superman's good with today's gritty expectation. 

While I enjoy Marvels approach, DC's approach with Batman and Superman I am enjoying even more.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 23, 2013)

Ed @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> I think its because kids grew up and wanted more adult versions of their childhood films. Kinda like how games used to be more innocent and sweet



That's about the size of it. I think we kinda robbed this generation of kids though.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

I think the Bible actually got this right, although I know it does not resonate with many now.:

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."


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## Inductance (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."



Jay, when I was a child I used to believe that kids were kids and did childish things, and that adults were wise and didn't resort to childishness. I've been an adult long enough now to realize that this isn't true at all.

Take one look around this message board. People argue and bicker over things that really don't matter. Often these arguments get personal and resort to name-calling, and often old grievances get brought into new arguments. Is this "adult"? Seems pretty childish to me. And don't even get me started on politics...

Even as adults, for many of us the acquisition of toys is still important to us--except now our toys are more expensive! I'd wager real money that the excitement most of us feel when we unpack new hardware is software is not much different than the excitement we felt when we were opening a new action figure.

In short, I don't think most of us every really put away our childish things. And I kind of roll my eyes when people dismiss certain movies or books as kids stuff. As adults, what we CAN do is separate fact from fiction, and I don't think ANY adult here has a problem doing that.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 23, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Ed @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > I think its because kids grew up and wanted more adult versions of their childhood films. Kinda like how games used to be more innocent and sweet
> ...



As much as I enjoy a lot of what is considered not kid friendly by people here, I do agree with this. I teach 5th grade, for many years it was 4th, and it amazes me as to what kids are allowed to watch. I have had 8 year olds ask me if I watched South Park. They were then able to tell me about specific episodes. Many asked me if play Call of Duty. I love South Park and I play the occasional game. I watch it/play after my kids go to bed. My 10 year old is begging me to allow him to play Call of Duty, but I don't think he is ready for it. Maybe in a couple of years.

There are kid friendly movies, look at Pixar. The reality is that the 18-40ish market has the money, and will spend it on games and movies. It is no wonder that content providers cater to that.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> ...



Pixar are awesome, and they're equally good for adults. The Incredibles is still the best superhero movie of the past 20 years, and it's PG and proud. In fact, their best G films are still perfectly good for adults. So I don't quite side with Jay / The Bible there (not sure that theologically it's completely sound to apply it to Hollywood, but there we go). I mean, some animations knowingly tip their hat to adults with references the kids won't get (Aladdin did it well and was the first of that breed), but often that's kinda cheap and annoying. The best stuff pitches it with more finesse and appeals to the kid in us all - if you weren't misty-eyed at the end of Toy Story 3, you have no soul. Which reminds me - more Randy Newman scoring love is required.

It's, as you say, everything else... it's just animation now for "families". I mean, my favourite TV show at the moment is Breaking Bad, and one of my favourite films of last year was Martha Marcy May Marlene (a true horror film, even though most might never see it that way), both of which are very much for adults. I'm not advocating some kind of draconian back-to-basics nonsense. But it was why I started that other Christopher Nolan thread, there's a huge vacuum for live action that is good for kids aged 8ish upwards. TBH I've been bored of superheroes for at least 10 years, I'm longing for a new Indy / BTTF / Original Star Wars to fill the PG void, not ExpandedPolystyreneMan or something.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

Ah, but those movies are designed to work on 2 levels: one that kids can relate to and ones that adults can relate to.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> I think the Bible actually got this right, although I know it does not resonate with many now.:
> 
> "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."



I think what makes an adult, an adult, is the ability to be responsible enough to not allow themselves to become consumed with childish pursuits at the expense of adult responsibilties. I was about ready to buy a Superman action figure to put on top of my monitors, but then realized that I could use that money to fix the drawer facing that broke the day before. Also the fact that my wife reluctantly tolerates my DAW being in the living room and a superhero action figure collection on top of that would be pushing it.

My family, work, and then hobbies.

Also adults just different ideas as to what is considered childish.

Fantasy football=D&D for sports nuts
Watching sports =playing sports as a kid
Golf=hide and seek(that one was a stretch)
Buying your 7th guitar=collecting baseball cards


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > I think the Bible actually got this right, although I know it does not resonate with many now.:
> ...



I agree and well said.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Ah, but those movies are designed to work on 2 levels: one that kids can relate to and ones that adults can relate to.



Which is why Pixar is so good at what they do. I never regret watching one of their films. Not all family movies are like that. We were flipping through channels one day and Cats and Dogs was on. My two youngest wanted to watch it. Being the good dad we did and it was pure hell.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Ah, but those movies are designed to work on 2 levels: one that kids can relate to and ones that adults can relate to.



Kinda - stuff like Aladdin is like that, or Shrek. I'd argue the best fuse it more elegantly than that though (not just "here's a gag for the dads"). I think the best family films and stories actually just work on the one level, like many of Pixar's or How To Train Your Dragon (the best non-Pixar CG ever). There's a series of kids books here that I think are about the funniest books I've ever read for any audience (Mr Gum by Andy Stanton - not Andrew Stanton, mind). They are extremely silly, but the level of comedic sophistication is high I'd argue... but my kids laugh at exactly the same stuff I do in it. It's a rare skill, but when it's done right it's pure joy.


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## Ed (Jun 23, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> DC has chosen a grittier feel it seems, even though MOS seemed to be a perfect blend of Superman's good with today's gritty expectation.



Not counting Green Lantern of course... lord only knows what they will do with Wonder Woman if they make Justice League with Nolan hahaha


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## Udo (Jun 23, 2013)

Over the past nearly 60 years, superhero stories and movies have never attracted me.
Does that mean there's something wrong with me? >8o


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## Per Lichtman (Jun 23, 2013)

In terms of animation operating at multiple levels, I think you could say things really changed a lot with the "NickToons" in the 1990s. When Nickelodeon launched original programming in the form of Doug, Rugrats and Ren & Stimpy to air in a morning timeslot aimed at kids, it became the first American network to really try to include older demographics in kids programming.

Out of the 3, the one that did so most directly was Rugrats, which featured parallel sub-plots involving children and adults where each story was told (and animated) in a very subjective fashion so that both younger and older audience members had a chance to feelt a home and alien. My youngest brother soon started watching them a bit later and my step-dad tended to enoy watching it more than other shows they shared for the reasons mentioned above: the storylines about parents, grandparents, family and co-workers functioned much like a primetime multi-cam sit-com (at least in tone) while the stories about the babies/toddlers/kids made big adventures out of little things because to the children experiencing the stories, the adventures seemed a bit bigger than to adults.

But part of the reason that it worked well was because despite divergent experiences as to which storyline felt more relatable or which experience were most familliar, the family watching could share a similar experience of laughing at the two on-screen groups completely failing to understand each others` experiences.

I may not feel the urge to watch the show today, but then I don`t have kids of my own. If I did, I would be glad that they were watching that instead of the truly awful (*name witheld to protect the animators*).


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## NYC Composer (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:


> Lex @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 22 said:
> ...



By your logic then, had you known HZ had contributed to the storyline, you should have cheerfully bashed him along with the rest of the personnel who made the movie- yet you say you would not have, so- composers who wear other hats, they're not fair game in their other roles?

I think it must be hard to be you, Jay- keeping all of your ethical distinctions clear, making new lines, crossing them, stepping back...it boggles the mind! :wink:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

It IS exhausting 

Actually, it is not really all that complex. If you are a living, breathing, professional film/TV composer I will not criticize your work publicly in a forum. This forum is almost exclusively composers so the dual hat situation was an anomaly.


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## Dan Mott (Jun 23, 2013)

Loved Batman Begins!

Dark Knight was ok.

Dark Knight Rises... hmm. The only reason I didn't like it is because it didn't feel like a Batman movie. Barely any scenes with Batman actually in it. Also, he wasn't doing very Batmany things. I thought the movie should have been called 'Bane' or something. Bane's character is the only one that stood out to me and I thought the theme music to his character was perfect, So dark and scary. I could imagine him in a more mature movie of Batman (which I hope someone makes one of these days). 

I think TDKR got a little too cute, batman wise. Little corny too. Just my OP about the movie.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

BTW, I liked "Batman Begins" quite a bit as well. I did not like TDK much except for Heath Ledger's incredible performance.


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## cc64 (Jun 23, 2013)

In general i really like Christopher Nolan's take on Batman.

Only thing i disliked in TDKR was how often the Bane character does this "all too ubiquitous move where he breaks peoples' necks like they where chicken [email protected]#t(this is banalized even in tv series like 24). 

Maybe it's just me but i really hate that move, and how often it is depicted/banalized in tv/films today.

Claude


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 23, 2013)

Ed @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > DC has chosen a grittier feel it seems, even though MOS seemed to be a perfect blend of Superman's good with today's gritty expectation.
> ...



That movie was a perfect example of a comic book story that is just ridiculous on screen. Even Thor was pretty out there. That being said I thought Ryan Reynolds did a great job trying to polish the turd that was the story.

My hope is that they keep Nolan involved in all of the DC movies at some level.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> It IS exhausting
> 
> Actually, it is not really all that complex. If you are a living, breathing, professional film/TV composer I will not criticize your work publicly in a forum. This forum is almost exclusively composers so the dual hat situation was an anomaly.



As far as i can tell, this forum runs the gamut from A-list composers to schooleachers to weekend warriors to music publication guys to ex-bond salesmen to ex-jingle geezers/songriters like myself to...gosh knows who. Myriad possibilities to offend!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 23, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > It IS exhausting
> ...



Well, the _only_ people's music I critique here, no matter which of those they are, are those who specifically ask me to in a PM, which I then will do, in a PM. And those people have almost entirely been newbies who went to my website and like what they heard 

I just see no upside to do so publicly.


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## passenger57 (Jun 23, 2013)

Lets not turn this fine forum into IMDB - lol

They should add it to the latest edition of Dante:

1-Limbo
2-The Lustful
3-The Gluttonous
4-The Hoarders And The Spendthrifts
5-The Wrathful
Lower hell:
6-The Heretics
7-The Violent
8-Malabolgia (Fraud)
9-Traitors
Lowest hell:
10. IMDB message boards


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 23, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> I think the Bible actually got this right, although I know it does not resonate with many now.:
> 
> "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."



Correct. It's from a letter written by St. Paul and is the concluding section on his explanation as to what love is/isn't, does/doesn't, love never.

The specific word for "love" here is agape and this is its technical definition:

_Agape love is a love that chooses to give, accept, and receive respect, honor, care/concern, appreciation, and appropriate affection, regardless of how you feel, and regardless of whether or not you or the other person has earned it or deserves it._


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## Consona (Jun 23, 2013)

Udo @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Over the past nearly 60 years, superhero stories and movies have never attracted me.
> Does that mean there's something wrong with me? >8o


I'd say quite the opposite.


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## George Caplan (Jun 24, 2013)

Consona @ Sun Jun 23 said:


> Udo @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Over the past nearly 60 years, superhero stories and movies have never attracted me.
> ...



when you spend $300 mill on a film you are appealing bottom up and not top down. to get your money back on that level you have to appeal to bottom up audiences. top down you would lose money no question.


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## Ron Snijders (Jun 24, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon 24 Jun said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jun 23 said:
> ...


Without wanting to impose any of my own assumptions on you, since your view of how to act on a message board is obviously quite different from my own: do you also refrain from critique on the member's compositions board? I personally love to learn from other people's work and opinions given on it, since that often allows for a more neutral way of looking at things. That, to me, would be an upside to public critique. But, as usual, everyone is more than free to disagree with me


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 24, 2013)

Without wanting to impose any of my own assumptions on you, since your view of how to act on a message board is obviously quite different from my own: do you also refrain from critique on the member's compositions board? [/quote]

Yes, I only do so by request and then I only do so privately. There is nothing wrong with others doing so, I just don't feel a need to do it unless someone specifically asks me because then I know they actually value my opinion. Which they can easily determine by going to my website.

Since in my view not all opinions are worth getting, I can easily understand someone not valuing mine and have no problem with it.


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## Ron Snijders (Jun 24, 2013)

Fair enough. I'll have to think about it to see if I agree with you or not, but it's certainly a perfectly valid view that I hadn't actually considered. Thanks 

(And once I actually get something up that is worth asking specific people's opinions on, I hope you won't mind my asking for yours. Also: man, I loved that Zorro series back when I was a kid!)


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 7, 2015)

EastWest Lurker said:


> So believe it or not, I just watched The Dark Knight Rises for the first time tonight.
> 
> What the _hell_ was all the fuss about? Tedious and pretentious IMHO.
> 
> ...



I might be the greatest fan of East West here, but I love that movie. It's the first of the DK trilogy that clicked for me (I'm a huge fan of the Nightfall series this movie was loosely based on), and the one that had me go back, reassess, and fall in love with the rest of the series. All my opinion. All of the Nolan/Zimmer collabs are phenomenal imo.


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## Mike Connelly (Dec 17, 2015)

Incredibles was already mentioned, I'd also point out Big Hero 6 as a great family friendly superhero movie. The strength of the movie is more the character Baymax than the superhero stuff specifically, but still a well executed mix of action with relationships and emotion.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 17, 2015)

Parsifal666 said:


> I might be the greatest fan of East West here, but I love that movie. It's the first of the DK trilogy that clicked for me (I'm a huge fan of the Nightfall series this movie was loosely based on), and the one that had me go back, reassess, and fall in love with the rest of the series. All my opinion. All of the Nolan/Zimmer collabs are phenomenal imo.


I loved Knightfall. I got every issue when the series was released, including Batman # 500, when Bane broke Batman's back. I do wish the movie was more like the comics, but I did enjoy it very much.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 17, 2015)

George Caplan said:


> when you spend $300 mill on a film you are appealing bottom up and not top down. to get your money back on that level you have to appeal to bottom up audiences. top down you would lose money no question.


I don't understand what you mean by bottom up audiences.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 18, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> I loved Knightfall. I got every issue when the series was released, including Batman # 500, when Bane broke Batman's back. I do wish the movie was more like the comics, but I did enjoy it very much.



It's a terrific series, I actually liked it better than the Dark Knight Returns...I never really gelled that much with Miller's art.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 18, 2015)

Parsifal666 said:


> It's a terrific series, I actually liked it better than the Dark Knight Returns...I never really gelled that much with Miller's art.


I feel the same way about DK Returns. And as far Rises is concerned, I liked it much btter than Nolan's Dark Knight


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 18, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> I feel the same way about DK Returns. And as far Rises is concerned, I liked it much btter than Nolan's Dark Knight



My favorite is Dark Knight Rises (I really liked how Bane was portrayed, mega-epic story), but I love them all. Dark Knight just seemed a little too long to me, they kind of dragged out the "there he goes, he has to be the Bad Man Bat Man..." ending. But then, that facet of the story really tied in well with what the Joker talked about in the interrogation room with Batman. That film has quite a bit of depth, really. Rises had less depth, but was just an all around great movie imo. Not a bad scene in it.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 18, 2015)

Parsifal666 said:


> Dark Knight just seemed a little too long to me, they kind of dragged out the "there he goes, he has to be the Bad Man Bat Man..." ending.


I didn't buy the ending at all. Bats took the blame for Dent's murders so that the city would still have that image and hope in the good man that Dent once was. So instead of ruining the image of a dead man, the city now fears its hero, a good man. Makes no sense, and Gordon never would have gone along with it.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 18, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> I didn't buy the ending at all. Bats took the blame for Dent's murders so that the city would still have that image and hope in the good man that Dent once was. So instead of ruining the image of a dead man, the city now fears its hero, a good man. Makes no sense, and Gordon never would have gone along with it.



Good point. Most Batman story arcs would have had Gordon completely against that. But it did make for a couple of interesting scenes in DKR though, imo.

I find it interesting how Gordon had to take on the role of Batman in this last year of the "Batman" comic. It's a good story, if you haven't checked it out I recommend grabbing the last six back issues and subscribing. Or you could of course just wait until a graphic novel compendium is released.


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## snowleopard (Dec 18, 2015)

Michael K. Bain said:


> I don't understand what you mean by bottom up audiences.


I believe he means the _most likely_ person to go see a movie in the theater, first run, is a 17 year old teenage male with testosterone to burn. Hence, a film with a lot of action, FX, attractive women, and not too much intellectual stimulation. Considering this is a shareholder driven, for profit industry, in a capitalist economy, it makes a certain amount of sense, especially if a studio is pumping $300m+ into the film.

As to DKR, I didn't like it much. Not terrible, just disappointing. It was too long, too meandering, and I completely agree with Michael on the ending, which I didn't buy either.


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 18, 2015)

Parsifal666 said:


> I find it interesting how Gordon had to take on the role of Batman in this last year of the "Batman" comic. It's a good story, if you haven't checked it out I recommend grabbing the last six back issues and subscribing. Or you could of course just wait until a graphic novel compendium is released.


I can't get past Giant bunny Batman. Plus, I don't really like Batman comics these days. Too convoluted, too many story lines, and story arcs are spread across too many different titles. Plus, I don't like that there is no finality in death - they'll always bring people back. Jason Todd, Damian Wayne... Also, origins are never set in stone. Don't like that Joe chill acted alone? Don't worry, they'll create a new origin in a couple of years through some crazy time-space continuum disaster.


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## jononotbono (Dec 20, 2015)

I love the Nolan Batman Trilogy. I have never been into Comic books. All 3 of them make an amazing 3-part story. The more times I watch my treasured Blu-Ray Boxset the more I love them and the more detail I notice. Easily one of the best trilogies in existence.


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## Parsifal666 (Dec 20, 2015)

jononotbono said:


> I love the Nolan Batman Trilogy. I have never been into Comic books. All 3 of them make an amazing 3-part story. The more times I watch my treasured Blu-Ray Boxset the more I love them and the more detail I notice. Easily one of the best trilogies in existence.



I agree with all this, except I'm a middle aged comic book lover. The Nolan trilogy is the only Batman I watch for live action full length movies. Besides that it's just the fun old 60s show and animated stuff (of which there's quite a few excellent ones out there and more coming in the Killing Joke).


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## jononotbono (Dec 20, 2015)

Yeah I'm not sure why I never got into Comic Books. Couldn't afford them when younger. I tried to read a comic book of the Walking Dead a few years ago (a Christmas Gift) and it immediately ruined the TV Show by spoiling parts so I put it down. I think I'm going to have to go and watch Batman Begins now I'm talking about it...


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## Michael K. Bain (Dec 20, 2015)

Do the Batusi!


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