# Amp simulation: Guitar rig 5 and other options



## Niah2 (Sep 9, 2018)

Hello everyone,

Are there any other amp simulators as good as guitar rig5? 


Thank you


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## gsilbers (Sep 9, 2018)

I think guitar rig is the worst for guitar amp simulation. It does some very cool effects though.

I use the axefx2 which Along with the kemper are in another league.

But for plug-in emulation I was amazed at the pluginaliance Bx-rockrack or something like that. There is a free demo that has a lot of good options minus the tweaking. The softube was also good as I remember.

There are others but for me guitar rig, line6 and amplitude... which are the most famous, don’t sound that good... or more accurate description: they are harder to make it sound like a real amp/cab. Obviously people have gotten decent results with those. Just not me.


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## jononotbono (Sep 9, 2018)

S Gear Scuffham Amps is good too.

After using a UA Apollo with Unity Preamps a few days ago, I’m definitely going with that for front end and Guitar emulation. It’s basically amazing and made me never want to buy a Kemper (and yes, they are very good). But I guess some Guitarist will get their backs up about me saying that. I guess I’m done with having to carry loads of stuff around anymore unless I need my real amps.


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## jneebz (Sep 9, 2018)

jononotbono said:


> S Gear Scuffham Amps is good too.
> 
> After using a UA Apollo with Unity Preamps a few days ago, I’m definitely going with that for front end and Guitar emulation. It’s basically amazing and made me never want to buy a Kemper (and yes, they are very good). But I guess some Guitarist will get their backs up about me saying that. I guess I’m done with having to carry loads of stuff around anymore unless I need my real amps.


I have the same setup....so do you run any plugs in your Apollo console for your pre-DAW guitar signal chain? If so what's your fav?


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## jtnyc (Sep 9, 2018)

S-Gear all the way


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## Soundhound (Sep 9, 2018)

S-Gear. Been using it for years, every now and then I try some other things just to keep up, but have yet to find anything I like more. Sounds like an amp to me. Sitting on a stage. With an open bottle of beer about to fall off, roll around, and soak my pedalboard.


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## J-M (Sep 10, 2018)

Guitar Rig 5 is terrible, to my ears at least. UAD has some top notch stuff, then there's BIAS by Positive Grid (I'm currently stuck with that), JST amps and Amplitube. Those are some of the most popular ones, I think. It's harder to tell the difference in a mix, but for example, BIAS doesn't feel and behave like a real amp for me. But for the price it's pretty decent.


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## bryla (Sep 10, 2018)

S-Gear! If I'm in a hurry I'll use logic's built-in and if I want to try something else is waves gtr. Guitar Rig is on the bottom of my list.


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## jononotbono (Sep 10, 2018)

For the price, S Gear is clearly the winner. Check it out (it comes part of the Slate Everything Bundle if you just wanted to try it out for a month) if there’s a demo. The only downside to it, in my opinion, is that it’s a native plugin which is where dedicated hardware such as a Kemper or UAD win. However, the price difference is staggering so definitely check S Gear out.


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## Guffy (Sep 10, 2018)

I love Audio Assault's stuff. Grind machine II with some good IRs (I use RedWirez) is magic in the right hands.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 10, 2018)

Kazrog Thermionik trounces all of them. Kuassa and Mercuriall are also great. S-Gear while good, is way too fiddly to use due to tiny controls (but they do have a GUI refresh underway).


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## jononotbono (Sep 10, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Kazrog Thermionik trounces all of them. Kuassa and Mercuriall are also great. S-Gear while good, is way too fiddly to use due to tiny controls (but they do have a GUI refresh underway).



You should love that being a Kontakt expert haha!


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## EvilDragon (Sep 10, 2018)

S-Gear has tinier controls (actually, tinier text is more of a culprit) than Kontakt in some cases even. It's really bad.


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## Shredoverdrive (Sep 10, 2018)

I have Guitar Rig 5 and I can't get anything satisfying out of it. 
I also have Kuassa Creme, Cerberus and Vermillion : much better indeed.
This Kazrog Thermionik looks interesting. And pretty cheap, also! I will try it.


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## JohnG (Sep 10, 2018)

kind of funny -- not that I'm touting Guitar Rig or anything, but I think people might be surprised at the number of appearances it makes on major trailers and soundtracks.

like so much in what we do, how good something has to sound depends on a lot of considerations.


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## Shredoverdrive (Sep 10, 2018)

JohnG said:


> kind of funny -- not that I'm touting Guitar Rig or anything, but I think people might be surprised at the number of appearances it makes on major trailers and soundtracks.
> 
> like so much in what we do, how good something has to sound depends on a lot of considerations.



Yes, it is probably good in some hands, but as I said, not in mine.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 10, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Kazrog Thermionik trounces all of them.



Yes, very overlooked!


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## fixxer49 (Sep 10, 2018)

Shredoverdrive said:


> I have Guitar Rig 5 and I can't get anything satisfying out of it.
> I also have Kuassa Creme, Cerberus and Vermillion : much better indeed.
> This Kazrog Thermionik looks interesting. And pretty cheap, also! I will try it.


if you switch out the Guitar Rig cabinets with the Kazrog Recabinet, it _really_ helps the GR5 sound (or any amp sim sound). day and night.


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## Shredoverdrive (Sep 10, 2018)

fixxer49 said:


> if you switch out the Guitar Rig cabinets with the Kazrog Recabinet, it _really_ helps the GR5 sound (or any amp sim sound). day and night.


Hmm. Interesting!


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## rollasoc (Sep 10, 2018)

I use the effects in guitar rig quite a lot, there are some weird things in there. I just don't use the amps very often (using s-gear, amplitude, kuassa, Kazrog, bx or even Cubase's put in simulator).


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## EvilDragon (Sep 10, 2018)

I find GR5 is great as a creative effects toolbox. As an ampsim it falls short on quality of emulation compared to newer ampsims (it's been years since GR5 was updated soundwise), but that doesn't mean you can't use it for all sorts of FSU stuff.


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## Soundhound (Sep 10, 2018)

I wonder if this has to do with the style people are looking for. There are a lot of sims that excel at metal type sounds. Being ancient, I'm always looking for that Voodoo Chile (not slight return ) sound, Kid Charlamagne, Duane and Dickey and the like, and S-Gear just nails that kind of thing for me. I do agree about the teensy controls, but over the years I've grown used to them I suppose.


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## jononotbono (Sep 10, 2018)

JohnG said:


> kind of funny -- not that I'm touting Guitar Rig or anything, but I think people might be surprised at the number of appearances it makes on major trailers and soundtracks.
> 
> like so much in what we do, how good something has to sound depends on a lot of considerations.



There’s nothing wrong with it. It just doesn’t react like an amplifier when playing a Guitar through it and as I’m primarily a Guitarist, that’s the main problem I have with it. As an FX box, it’s great.


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## Guy Rowland (Sep 10, 2018)

I'm a seemingly rare GR5 fan too. I have Amplitube 4 and a bunch-o modelled stuff from the big names, but I often wind my way back to GR5. As others have said, for effects stuff its brilliant - I always use it for ambient stuff. The Edge presets are uncanny to me, better than others I've heard, so its not just ambient. Probably fair to say the more metal you go, the less good it gets.


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## jononotbono (Sep 10, 2018)

Guy Rowland said:


> the more metal you go, the less good it gets.



Completely agree.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 10, 2018)

Doesn't even have to be full-on metal. Crunchy rock sounds are pretty one-dimensional sounding coming from GR5, and the response just isn't there (compared to newer sims like S-Gear, Thermionik, Kuassa, Mercuriall).


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 10, 2018)

I agree with others about GR5 being simply not very good amp sims. It has a lot of terrific FX in it, so if you don't care that much about the underlying amp tone or perhaps if you are not accustomed to what a real tube amp sounds and feels like, then GR5 might be great for its flexibility..perhaps some of its cleaner tones might be ok. The OP never really said what kind of guitar tone he is primarily needing, which could be a factor in recommending something.

I have the following, some of which are free and you should definitely try the free stuff, some of it is quite good:

GR5
Amplitube4 (including Hendrix, Fender2, Slash and other models)
Peavy Revalver
Vox JamVox
S-Gear
Thermonik (most classic models)
Recabinet 4 and 5
Anvil
Hybrit
Le456
LeCto
LeGion
LeXtac
LeCab
Nick Crow 7170
Nick Crow 8505
Nick Crow Tube Driver
Nick Crow Wagner Sharp
StudioDevil
Ignite TPA-1
Ignite TS-999
Ignite TSB-1
TSE-R47
TSE 808
Ignite Emissary

They all have some good things and bad things, its hard to pick a favorite but strangely my favorite is the Vox JamVox which which sounds almost exactly like my Vox Tonelab, which I still love to this day...especially for brown tones, its not particularly great at strong metal sounds, but many of the free ones listed above are. 

Thermonik is very underrated also and very good, I want to do more with it, but it doesn't really have any FX compared to others

Amplitube4 sounds pretty darn good in some models, but i find it dreadful to play in terms of ear fatigue and feel.

Revalver has amazing customization options, including you can design your own amps down to the tube circuits. you can also insert 3rd party VST's into the signal chain inside it.

S-Gear is supposed to be great, but I just haven't gotten along well with it or gotten great tones out of it, so I don't know... Need to spend more time with it.

There are some others that I don't own, haven't used but worth mentioning

Positive Grid
Overloud TH3
Waves GTR3
Brainworx
Mercurial
TSE X50
Line6


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## Soundhound (Sep 10, 2018)

Oh no, just what I need, another rabbit hole. Ahhhhhh!

No seriously, thank you for posting that list.




Dewdman42 said:


> I agree with others about GR5 being simply not very good amp sims. It has a lot of terrific FX in it, so if you don't care that much about the underlying amp tone or perhaps if you are not accustomed to what a real tube amp sounds and feels like, then GR5 might be great for its flexibility..perhaps some of its cleaner tones might be ok. The OP never really said what kind of guitar tone he is primarily needing, which could be a factor in recommending something.
> 
> I have the following, some of which are free and you should definitely try the free stuff, some of it is quite good:
> 
> ...


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## EvilDragon (Sep 10, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> but it doesn't really have any FX compared to others



Yeah, it's like Reaper in that regard. Use whatever other effects you have! Perhaps even GR5


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## richardt4520 (Sep 10, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Kazrog Thermionik trounces all of them. Kuassa and Mercuriall are also great. S-Gear while good, is way too fiddly to use due to tiny controls (but they do have a GUI refresh underway).


Totally agree on Kazrog's models. I've never heard a modeller, plugin or otherwise, that sounded even remotely like the 2 channel Dual Recs i used for about a decade. His version was so close to the old recordings I had done with those amps, that I purchased the suite as soon as I tried it. Not a fan of Recabinet though. This was just Thermionik into Redwirez IRs. I don't have S-Gear but for mid gain stuff, the demos sound as real as the real thing to me. Gotta pick those up eventually.


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## ryst (Sep 11, 2018)

Big fan of Mercuriall. I have a lot of amp sims but Mercuriall is my current favorite.


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## pderbidge (Sep 11, 2018)

Some of these sims are not only going to be personal taste but will be different for those who play guitar vs those who do not (like myself)- A guitar player is going to care more about "feel" and how the instrument responds to playing while those who don't play will only care about "tone". Since I don't play the guitar I can only give my opinion on what I think has the most realistic "tone"- I was in a rock band for 6 years so I feel like I've got a decent grasp as to what a good guitar amp "should" sound like, but it's still all subjective. Here are my thoughts:

The best tone from what I own is definitely Bias Amp, however I do feel that they tend to rape you a bit on price for what you get compared to some of the others that I don't have so I would highly encourage anyone to first look at Thermoinik, Mecurial and S-Gear. While I don't own these, to my ears they sound just as good as Bias. 
Guitar Rig 5 is a gem and does FX like none of these others will so I think it's worth owning just for that but it's not in the same class when it comes to realistic guitar amp tones as the ones I mentioned above. That could possibly be remedied when using their impulse loading amp module with a high quality impulse respone. Also don't ignore some of the free ones that will rival some of the paid ones such as LePou. Here is a good list of the free ones to try out. https://bedroomproducersblog.com/20...best-free-guitar-amp-simulator-vstau-plugins/

Just for reference here is the list of what I own.

Amplitube 3
Bias Amp FX Standard (not the new version)
Bias Amp Standard (Not the new version)
Guitar Rig 5 (came with KU11)
Amplion- I got this on a $15 sale but haven't actually been that impressed with it. 

I have tested just about all of the sims out there and the ones I mentioned came out on top for me but unfortunately I didn't test them til after I already bought Amplitube 3 on a big sale or I would have gone for those others instead. The only reason I haven't gotten them is because Bias is working well for me but I also paid twice as much for it, and that's just the standard version.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 11, 2018)

ryst said:


> Big fan of Mercuriall. I have a lot of amp sims but Mercuriall is my current favorite.



which one from them?


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## ryst (Sep 11, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> which one from them?



I have Reaxis, Spark and the U530. They all are great. One of my baritone guitars are super picky with amp sims but the Mercuriall amps sound great with it.


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## Brendon Williams (Sep 12, 2018)

Another vote for Mercuriall here. They’re my favorite as well!


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## oks2024 (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm also using the free Lepou plugins, Hybrit, Le456, LeCto, LeGion, LeXtac and LeCab.
They are really good, and as they are free, I think they are worth trying.

I never tried Thermionik, but a lot of people seems to find it really good, I think I will try the demo soon.


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## Soundhound (Sep 12, 2018)

Interested in something that works particularly well with a baritone, do you think it can get into this territory?:






ryst said:


> I have Reaxis, Spark and the U530. They all are great. One of my baritone guitars are super picky with amp sims but the Mercuriall amps sound great with it.


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## Blakus (Sep 12, 2018)

S-Gear was the best 'in the box' option I found. But recently I entered Kemper land. Hard to go back! :D


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## pderbidge (Sep 14, 2018)

One company I never hear talked about in these Amp Sim discussion is AAS. Has anyone tried them out? The reason I ask is because they have their Lounge Lizard on sale for $8 so it got me curious.


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## brenneisen (Sep 14, 2018)

pderbidge said:


> One company I never hear talked about in these Amp Sim discussion is AAS.



perhaps because they don't have any amp sim?


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## pderbidge (Sep 14, 2018)

brenneisen said:


> perhaps because they don't have any amp sim?


LOL, at a glance the Lounge Lizard looked liked an AMP sim to me. I guess I should have actually looked at the description.


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## ein fisch (Sep 15, 2018)

Nobody mentioned the Overloud TH3 yet. imo it sounds amazing


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2018)

It's just OK IMHO. Not as good as Kazrog, Kuassa, Mercuriall, S-Gear. But better than Guitar Rig in amp department. Clunky GUI.


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## GtrString (Sep 15, 2018)

All of them can sound good in a mix, depending on musical context, imo. GR5 sometimes sounds the right kind of fake in a media track, and the fx are best of the bunch. For guitar tracks, I currently only use cab ir’s itb, though.


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## jononotbono (Sep 15, 2018)

Blakus said:


> S-Gear was the best 'in the box' option I found. But recently I entered Kemper land. Hard to go back! :D



S Gear can use the exact same impulses as Kemper. Pretty much the only benefit to having a Kemper is the fact that it's hardware and uses no CPU from your computer. I was going to buy a Kemper a while ago as they are amazing (I'm not meaning to sound depressing after your purchase - they are fantastic) but it's not for me anymore. Going UAD with Apollo and Unity Preamps for front end (certainly good enough for me) instead. Still portable like a Kemper and still doesn't tax the computer's CPU. 

Buying impulses is just as addictive as drugs. Sorry, Sample Libraries. Haha!


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2018)

Kemper is fundamentally doing a completely different thing to all the amp modelers (software or hardware).


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## Divico (Sep 15, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Kemper is fundamentally doing a completely different thing to all the amp modelers (software or hardware).


Would you like to explain this? you got me curious. 
Back to topic. I use Bias FX. A lot of options in there but soundwise I think it could be better. External IRs are a nice improvement though. All the Ignite stuff is great and for free!


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## jononotbono (Sep 15, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Kemper is fundamentally doing a completely different thing to all the amp modelers (software or hardware).



Well I would like to know more because I didn’t think it was (software side of things). Obviously you can create your own impulse with the hardware but the point of doing that is only if you have amazing guitars, amps and mics (and a room) that the average person doesn’t have access to which is why buying impulses is so attractive and I thought using Kemper impulses inside something such as Scuffham would do what a Kemper does. Sure, you don’t have the hardware EQs and use the unit as a head for Live use but you can still tweak that stuff in the box.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2018)

It's not modeling amps via algorithms, it's basically taking a snapshot of the current chain you have (minus guitar). It's a form of dynamic convolution from what I gather. It's not at all the same as your regular impulse responses (they are static and linear, whereas Kemper is dynamic and non-linear). There is nothing in the software realm that does the same thing as Kemper.


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## jononotbono (Sep 15, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> It's not modeling amps via algorithms, it's basically taking a snapshot of the current chain you have (minus guitar). It's a form of dynamic convolution from what I gather. It's not at all the same as your regular impulse responses (they are static and linear, whereas Kemper is dynamic and non-linear). There is nothing in the software realm that does the same thing as Kemper.



Well thanks for clearing that up for me. Are you saying that Kemper is still better than any other solution out there then? I was dead set on buying one until I experienced UAD Apollo/Unity and I swayed from it. I've always thought Kemper was the go to Guitar solution but the price versus using something like S Gear was another factor in not bothering. I will have to do some reading on Linear impulse responses because I have no idea how that equates to a better Guitar tone vs Static Impulses. Recording or at least mic'ing a Guitar cab is usually always positioned in a mix post the recording so I am wondering how "dynamic and non linear" impulses make a difference. 

I will happily sway towards a Kemper again if there is nothing that rivals it. And thanks for your wisdom as per usual.


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## jononotbono (Sep 15, 2018)

Also regarding capturing an impulse with the Kemper. The outcome very much depends on the Guitar used and obviously the types of pickups used. Thats why buying an impulse recorded, for example with a Gibson Les Paul, may or may not sound how someone wants if they are using a Telecaster Deluxe etc. Being able to buy impulses that have used the same Guitar as you have (or close enough) is a wonderful thing. But you likely know all this.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2018)

Kemper makes more sense if you're doing live gigs and you want to take the exact same chain (=sound) on the road with you and not depend on computer.



jononotbono said:


> Also regarding capturing an impulse with the Kemper. The outcome very much depends on the Guitar used and obviously the types of pickups used.



Wrong! When Kemper does its thing the guitar is not plugged in at all. You plug the reamping output from Kemper into the front of the amp, so it can send its testing signals and profile your amp that way. By doing this, the profile Kemper builds will respond exactly like any guitar you plugin into the actual amp that was profiled. The guitar used doesn't matter.



jononotbono said:


> Being able to buy impulses that have used the same Guitar as you have (or close enough) is a wonderful thing.



Also wrong. When you buy cab impulses, they don't contain the guitar output in them at all. You build impulses by shooting a sine sweep or a blast of white noise through the poweramp into the cab. That's what you're getting - the sound of a particular cabinet. Not the sound from the guitar to the cabinet.



jononotbono said:


> I will have to do some reading on Linear impulse responses because I have no idea how that equates to a better Guitar tone vs Static Impulses.



Impulse responses are exactly like samples. Snapshots of one state of a system in a time period. The process that applies that IR to the sound you have is called convolution, which is only valid for LTI systems (linear, time-invariant). That is why you cannot convolve modulation effects like chorus, phaser, flanger, because they have an element of modulating delay time built into them, they are not linear in time, hence they cannot be duplicated by convolution. That said, cabinet speakers are also not really linear systems, they do have their own dynamics, but convolving them does get close. Some IR loaders (like Recabinet 5) model the speaker dynamics, which is available as a tweakable parameter, which does inch it closer to the real thing.

What Kemper does is not this simple LTI convolution thing, it's probably based on dynamic (multi-input) convolution (Volterra kernels) or something in the same vein. Similar stuff used in, for example, Nebula plugin.


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## gsilbers (Sep 15, 2018)

I have the axefx2 which is almost the same as the kemper. The only reason I decide for the axefx2 is because of the effects. So for film composers it’s a much better option as it opens up the guitar to some amazing effects and tones.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2018)

Nope, AxeFX does classic run-of-the-mill algorithmic modeling like everybody else, it's totally not the same thing as Kemper. FWIW Kemper also has stellar effects on board (I mean, it's made by the same guy who made the Virus, which also has stellar effects on board), but AxeFX might be more flexible in the routing of these effects.


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## jononotbono (Sep 15, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Kemper makes more sense if you're doing live gigs and you want to take the exact same chain (=sound) on the road with you and not depend on computer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dialling in the amp to respond well to a specific Guitar before the profile is created is what I think people are talking about and it's why I have thought that is why a Guitar makes a difference. Amps respond differently with different pickups obviously. People sell profiles saying "this "x" Guitar was used" so it's either a load of nonsense or there's something in it. I didn't realise the guitar has nothing to do with the actual creation of the profile and is just from test tones. That is interesting. I guess if I finally bought one I could know from my own experience of experimentation.

So, after all this. Is the Kemper the very best Guitar solution for in the studio? Regardless of price vs in the box cheap solutions? Has anyone compared it with UAD2 and Unity preamps with an Apollo (don't care about the process - just the playability and the actual sound).


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2018)

Yeah they say "guitar X was used" so that you know how you can get the closest to the intended tone (if not with the identical guitar, then at least pickups). Of course, different pickups will send a less or more hot signal into the amp, and behave differently, and Kemper does model that too, which is why it sends generic test tones to it in order to build up a profile.

For a studio, it can work if you record a lot of guitarists and have a prized collection of tube amps you don't want to re-tube year in-year out. You profile them up and then it's much easier to switch between different amps on the fly once they're profiled in the Kemper...


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## jononotbono (Sep 15, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Yeah they say "guitar X was used" so that you know how you can get the closest to the intended tone (if not with the identical guitar, then at least pickups). Of course, different pickups will send a less or more hot signal into the amp, and behave differently, and Kemper does model that too, which is why it sends generic test tones to it in order to build up a profile.
> 
> For a studio, it can work if you record a lot of guitarists and have a prized collection of tube amps you don't want to re-tube year in-year out. You profile them up and then it's much easier to switch between different amps on the fly once they're profiled in the Kemper...



Ok, that's good to know. I only have 3 Tube amps as I'm not rich but they can be a hassle. Especially during the witching hour.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 15, 2018)

Yes, that's another good example. Make a great tone on the amp during the day when it's fully cranked, then profile it, then you can play that same tone in the middle of the night on the Kemper. On headphones.

Well, there are power soaks even for your ordinary tube amps (and you want a reactive one because resistive ones kill tone), but Kemper would be more flexible.


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## Pablocrespo (Sep 15, 2018)

I love putting nebula cab responses after s-gear or similar.
It is, in my opinion, much more real than a regular IR.

I think it has to do with what Mario said about linear response, nebula uses dynamic convultion (black magic to my understanding)

I think they are developing a acqua guitar amp plugin. That will be interesting.


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## jononotbono (Sep 15, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Yes, that's another good example. Make a great tone on the amp during the day when it's fully cranked, then profile it, then you can play that same tone in the middle of the night on the Kemper. On headphones.
> 
> Well, there are power soaks even for your ordinary tube amps (and you want a reactive one because resistive ones kill tone), but Kemper would be more flexible.



Ah. I'm now thinking about Kemper again. Damn you man. If anything, to avoid the specific hassle of neighbours calling the Police. haha!


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## Kony (Sep 15, 2018)

Speaking of Kemper....


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## GtrString (Sep 16, 2018)

Why not stick with the tube amps, as no modeller including Kemper would ace those tones. Then match them up with the UA OX box to get the best of both worlds (to reuse a Fender slogan).


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## J-M (Sep 16, 2018)

GtrString said:


> Why not stick with the tube amps, as no modeller including Kemper would ace those tones. Then match them up with the UA OX box to get the best of both worlds (to reuse a Fender slogan).




I think it comes down to personal preference. Would you rather pay a couple of thousand dollars for and Axe-FXIII which does pretty much everything (adequately at least), or pay almost the same amount for ONE tube amp, that maybe does two things. I have an ENGL Fireball 60w, it' pretty cheap compared to, let's say, a Mark V, but I sure wouldn't use the clean channel if I had other options.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 16, 2018)

GtrString said:


> as no modeller including Kemper would ace those tones.



Kemper has been acing a lot of tones, in fact. So yeah...


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## germancomponist (Sep 16, 2018)

I still use my Roland GP 100 since more than 20 years, and it rocks very well.


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## mc_deli (Sep 16, 2018)

I have a bunch of tube amps and Amplitube Fender is my fave plug in - but it's only because I have chanced upon a handful of tones that work for me - and they are different from what I like out of my favourite Hot Cat. At the moment I have a room where I can play loud - and there are even more amps on tap than mine - but I am thinking about moving home and the OX looks very very nice.

But the OX also seems well overpriced... more outputs would be nice and I don't quite get the digital output... but the switchable 4-8-16 load, speaker modelling features etc. and the big lump of iron seem just the ticket. Thoughts?


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## GtrString (Sep 16, 2018)

EvilDragon said:


> Kemper has been acing a lot of tones, in fact. So yeah...



I would call bs that Kemper's version of the same tone possibly can be better. It might be as good as any amp in question, to the ear, but I dont see how you can argue a modeller is better than the real amp? Kemper does not at all ace the tube amps. It sounds good, and it is (somewhat) convenient, but if you already have tube amps you like, an OX box would be as viable, if not more, as getting a Kemper for sure. If you dont have, and know your favourite, tube amps, sure a Kemper could be great. Still, many use third party IR's with the Kemper as well.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 16, 2018)

Perhaps a better word to use there was "nailing" rather than "acing". 

OX box is definitely overpriced, though. There are other reactive loadboxes that are just as good at a better price (i.e. Two Notes Torpedo Captor is 1/5 of the price - it does cover only one speaker impedance (there are versions for 4, 8 and 16 Ohms), but still - one _fifth _of the price).


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## GtrString (Sep 16, 2018)

Cool. Might be, but the Ox does a similar thing with cabs, as Kemper does with amps, and would work with any amp, so it is flexible. UA is definitely pricey, though. But you also get a lot with that, design included, which can mean a lot if you are gigging. For home Captor + IRs are certainly viable as well.


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## ryst (Sep 16, 2018)

Soundhound said:


> Interested in something that works particularly well with a baritone, do you think it can get into this territory?:




Not sure. My baritones are usually used for heavier stuff but I'd recommend trying the demos if you can.


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## nas (Sep 16, 2018)

Another vote for S-Gear. Also works very well if you combine analog pedals on the front end.


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## Henu (Sep 17, 2018)

I've been now fighting with Bias Amp 2 for a week due to the newest version crashing Cubase in the middle of an album mix. Their customer support has now sent me various older installers to find out which version breaks it (I hopped from 2.0 straight to 2.3 originally) and the fun thing is that not only half of those versions in between is having some weird bugs, but my own preset sounds actually _change_ (sometimes drastically!) between different versions.

I'd love to say how I love Bias Amp and have been using it since the first one got launched, but the more I use have used any Positive Grid products during the years, the more _unstable, buggy_ and complete dissappointments their software have become in my eyes. I LOVE what you can do with them (especially the amp match), but jesus tapdancing christ their stuff is in a seemingly eternal beta test and they keep pushing new unstable iPad- generation- oriented shit to the market without even bothering to fix what they are already selling very aggressively.

No, I'm not in a good mood. I just want that fucking album to be mixed and I want to use those Bias products in it like I intended. Graaaaaahhhhhhhhh.


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## EvilDragon (Sep 17, 2018)

This is exactly why I don't use Bias or recommend it to anyone.


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## amorphosynthesis (Dec 22, 2018)

@EvilDragon and all the other guys here, sorry for resurrecting an old thread,but I was wondering....does anyone here had any experience with STL tones? The Howard Benson plugin has a free 10 day trail.Any opinions? 

https://www.stltones.com/products/stltonalityhowardbenson


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## lux (Dec 22, 2018)

As pointed out before it widely depends on the styles and playing techniques involved. 

After a while I personally ended up using only external gear. Basically I found myself getting nice tones both with my pedals chain like OD/Boost->Head emulation pedal->Cab emulation pedal->Delay->Reverb, but also with unexpensive devices like Line6 and Zoom stuff.

What makes external gear great to me is that it forces me to not overthink my sound, and to take decisions. Taking decisions I cannot step back is something really part of the artistic process for me, it's like the old days, when you had to focus on your performance as you would hardly get a second chance once the session ended.


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## Chr!s (Dec 22, 2018)

Personally, I don't like Guitar Rig's sims at all. There are free amp sims that are better!

For me though, where it really comes down to it, is cab simulation. I don't like the way they mic 90% of rock and metal music and most cab sims reflect this.

So I'd use an amp sim, but run it through a real cabinet and mic it _without_ shoving the mic right in the speaker's face, as is common practice.


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## Henu (Dec 23, 2018)

Henu said:


> ...the more I have used any Positive Grid products during the years, the more _unstable, buggy_ and complete dissappointments their software have become in my eyes.



Bumping this thread to point out that I switched on (full/ max) Amplitube a month ago. Still haven't done anything proper with it albeit from fiddling around and testing it, but it has already proven to be extremely good for my needs.



Chr!s said:


> So I'd use an amp sim, but run it through a real cabinet...



This is what I've done also a couple of times. However, if you're running it through a cab only (Marshall 4x12 in my case), you need a clean power amp for it. Got myself a €100 one from Thomann which works wonders. Usually, when I record, I do a 57 from the grill a bit off-axis and a ribbon mic from a meter away and run them through Neve clone preamps + possible EQ. Then I blend them together in the mix. 

Like @lux said, I also want as much pre-made decisions like in the old days, as I come from that angle anyway. I usually print my amp sims as soon as the sound is made as well, but keep the original channel as a backup in case something goes wrong.


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## dgburns (Dec 23, 2018)

I use kemper as my first go to. I’ve modelled a lot of my own amps. No, there is a difference from the actual amp. But it’s the closest I’ve gotten to the real thing. And that rig manager app is incredible- a world of amps at your fingertips right there in front of you.

Thing is, Guitar Rig ain’t all that bad. I did quite a lot of scores using it. (especially the far out sounds, very eventide h3000)

One thing to remember is that the device you use to get your guitar into the daw is important. Kemper has a high quality input that closely resembles the inputs on amps and the impedences matter. 

End of the day, I can make them all sound good, and I can make them all sound bad, lol


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## Henu (Dec 23, 2018)

dgburns said:


> Thing is, Guitar Rig ain’t all that bad. I did quite a lot of scores using it.



This. I use it a lot when I need to get some sounds out of the guitar which aren't normally my regular cup of tea when working with soundtracks. Because, let's face it- not many soundtracks need a cranked 5150 with a Tube Screamer in front. 
It's a reliable workhorse for non-exposed guitar stuff when you need that one quick surf-guitar, an ethereal clean tone or that funky prince-esque snapping for your track.


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## Quasar (Dec 23, 2018)

nas said:


> Another vote for S-Gear. Also works very well if you combine analog pedals on the front end.


Yet another vote for S-Gear.

I don't play guitar, but play faux guitars on the keyboard, and mainly used Guitar Rig (which I think offers a lot, I don't get the hate) but when I tried the Scuffham demo I was blown away by - how would I describe it? - a more "3 dimensional" sonic depth, a much richer sense of space. Or something like that.

Also tried Kazrog, who makes good stuff, but I didn't have the patience to try and grasp the array of modular options. I like S-Gear much better anyway, and also appreciate that it's all in one easy-to-use virtual box.


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## martinjuenke (Dec 23, 2018)

Audio Assault?
Brainworx?


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## scoble08 (Dec 23, 2018)

S-Gear!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 23, 2018)

Kemper is the best guitar module i have ever owned, and i have tried a ton of different gear over the years...
Here's an excerpt from a solo gig i did in October:


and if you want to hear more variety of tones, here is another:


Yes, it is way more money than a plugin, but i have stopped looking for any other alternatives. I'm set
And i can use it also for bass tones... (not the bass tone in the video. I mean hooking up a bass to it with the right profile delivers excellent bass tones as well...)


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## dgburns (Dec 23, 2018)

@Patrick de Caumette YES!! bass tones from Kemper, it’s a secret weapon with a growing list of good profiles.


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## Niah2 (Dec 24, 2018)

This thread has been so helpful.

How about something like this?


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## ptram (Dec 24, 2018)

With plugins, I think to understand that S-Gear is great for clean-to-crunch sounds, in the Fender and Marshall vein. Bias Fx, on the other hand, should be great for sounds from slightly overdriven-to-death-metal distortion. As a consequence, I went for Bias.

Paolo


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## Henu (Dec 24, 2018)

I really hope you read what I wrote about Bias earlier, having been using it myself since the V1 was released. 

It's good- pretty much the best for custom DM/BM/Extreme metal sounds, but for the love of all Gods, _print your sound to audio_ as soon as you have dialed it. Otherwise you might swimming in a serious river of frustration.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 24, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> I have the axefx2 which is almost the same as the kemper. The only reason I decide for the axefx2 is because of the effects. So for film composers it’s a much better option as it opens up the guitar to some amazing effects and tones.


Not to rehash the same topic, but AxeFX is not the same as Kemper.
It used to be that the Axe had superior FXs and inferior tone, but Kemper has caught up a bit with FX upgrades, and is about to release a reverb update that should take care of that.
For tone, the Kemper is definitely the winner


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## ptram (Dec 24, 2018)

Henu said:


> I really hope you read what I wrote about Bias earlier


Yes, and I can already say that installation has already been a bit odd, with the need of manual copy, and reboot of the Mac to let the AU components be seen. I'll use it with care.

Paolo


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## gsilbers (Dec 24, 2018)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Not to rehash the same topic, but AxeFX is not the same as Kemper.
> It used to be that the Axe had superior FXs and inferior tone, but Kemper has caught up a bit with FX upgrades, and is about to release a reverb update that should take care of that.
> For tone, the Kemper is definitely the winner



mmm... both sound execelent to me. and better than line6 and software counterparts and im checking out tons of comparison vidoes and still both kickass and both have many nice tones.
For the effects... to me the axefx would be better.... but in the sense that it has lfo's, step sequencers, a huge variety of fx and a nice software editor. Im sure kemper could add or upgrade fx to sound very good but axefx has a lot more flexibility in terms of sound design, which is why i mention for scoring. although kemper does have a many effects as well so its just for me a matter of choice for some of the extra depth in editing that i dont think many use anyways. For straight up guitar stuff both are awesome though. like this stuff


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## silentunion (Dec 24, 2018)

The ones I'm eyeing are the JST Toneforge amps, but they tend to lean more towards metal.

Actually, thinking about that (and not to hijack the thread), what I'm trying to do is combine an amp sim with a synth sound to get a really gritty synth. This is probably a shot in the dark, but does anyone have experience creating more synthy guitar sounds and have any suggestions for amp sims for this purpose?

Basically, I'm currently layering Shreddage II running through Guitar Rig 5 and combining it with a saw wave. (Then both are going through Trash 2)


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 24, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> mmm... both sound execelent to me. and better than line6 and software counterparts and im checking out tons of comparison vidoes and still both kickass and both have many nice tones.
> For the effects... to me the axefx would be better.... but in the sense that it has lfo's, step sequencers, a huge variety of fx and a nice software editor. Im sure kemper could add or upgrade fx to sound very good but axefx has a lot more flexibility in terms of sound design, which is why i mention for scoring. although kemper does have a many effects as well so its just for me a matter of choice for some of the extra depth in editing that i dont think many use anyways. For straight up guitar stuff both are awesome though. like this stuff


For years, the consensus has been that Kemper is better for tone, and AxeFX for FXS.
You are right, they are both better than most other products (considering the price, they'd better be!)
Since i have so many FXS plugins, the FXs advantage is not an issue for me, especially since Kemper has released an update for delays and reverbs (stomp boxes are next)


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 24, 2018)

silentunion said:


> The ones I'm eyeing are the JST Toneforge amps, but they tend to lean more towards metal.
> 
> Actually, thinking about that (and not to hijack the thread), what I'm trying to do is combine an amp sim with a synth sound to get a really gritty synth. This is probably a shot in the dark, but does anyone have experience creating more synthy guitar sounds and have any suggestions for amp sims for this purpose?
> 
> Basically, I'm currently layering Shreddage II running through Guitar Rig 5 and combining it with a saw wave. (Then both are going through Trash 2)



Unless you want to do this for live situations, you could do this post performance by recording your guitar track and then inserting a plugin such as MIDI Guitar (https://www.jamorigin.com/) and assigning the MIDI performance to the synth of your choice, like I did here:

I am so dissatisfied with stock sounds from my Roland GR55 from a production stand point, that i did re-assign my synth doubling after the fact, using either Omnisphere or Arturia V collection.
If you are talking about using a guitar amp sim on synth sounds, it totally works as well, but inserting a guitar sim on a synth track doesn't make the synth part more guitar-like.
It will warm up your track, give it more grit, make it sound more analog, depending on your settings...


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## silentunion (Dec 24, 2018)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Unless you want to do this for live situations, you could do this post performance by recording your guitar track and then inserting a plugin such as MIDI Guitar (https://www.jamorigin.com/) and assigning the MIDI performance to the synth of your choice, like I did here:
> 
> I am so dissatisfied with stock sounds from my Roland GR55 from a production stand point, that i did re-assign my synth doubling after the fact, using either Omnisphere or Arturia V collection.
> If you are talking about using a guitar amp sim on synth sounds, it totally works as well, but inserting a guitar sim on a synth track doesn't make the synth part more guitar-like.
> It will warm up your track, give it more grit, make it sound more analog, depending on your settings...



Thanks for the advice and that song was beautiful by the way. 

I do have both Omnisphere and Arturia V. What I'm really trying to do is make the guitar sound more like a synth while trying to retain the guitar-like qualities if that makes sense, so almost the opposite basically. I'm basically looking for the best amp sim for this application.

A good reference track would be Orgy's version of Blue Monday when the guitar with that massive fuzz kicks in (at least I found out it was a Boss Fuzz pedal, perhaps there's an emulation on it somewhere); however, perhaps there's something more personal to me out there and I realise only I can answer that in the end.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Dec 24, 2018)

silentunion said:


> Thanks for the advice and that song was beautiful by the way.
> 
> I do have both Omnisphere and Arturia V. What I'm really trying to do is make the guitar sound more like a synth while trying to retain the guitar-like qualities if that makes sense, so almost the opposite basically. I'm basically looking for the best amp sim for this application.
> 
> A good reference track would be Orgy's version of Blue Monday when the guitar with that massive fuzz kicks in (at least I found out it was a Boss Fuzz pedal, perhaps there's an emulation on it somewhere); however, perhaps there's something more personal to me out there and I realise only I can answer that in the end.


Thank you so much!

I am not an expert on pedals, but from what i have seen, you may want to look into it for your needs.
It seems that a number of companies (Electro-Harmonix among them) are into that market.
But nothing that i have heard is particularly earth shattering, which is the reason why i'd rather trigger a guitar performance.
There is also the solution of running the output of your guitar into the input of a synth plugin (i believe many of the most popular software synths allow this...) and using the synth's filters and modulation capabilities.
The result would still be sounding like a guitar, but with more synth-like character.


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## Divico (Dec 24, 2018)

ptram said:


> Yes, and I can already say that installation has already been a bit odd, with the need of manual copy, and reboot of the Mac to let the AU components be seen. I'll use it with care.
> 
> Paolo


wait till you see the great features inside. Advertisement in the plugin. Login request for each time you go to tonecloud or update the thing XD


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## ProfoundSilence (Dec 24, 2018)

If you can't afford Kemper, I really liked peavy's revalver for some things.


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## Henu (Dec 25, 2018)

Divico said:


> Login request for each time you go to tonecloud or update the thing XD



...needing to be done for each separate instance of Bias you are currently using in your project, I might add. In all seriousness- as I said, I'd love to give more love to it, but in it's current buggy state I will use it rather cautiously instead of my workhorse. Bias 1 was way more stable.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jul 23, 2020)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Thank you so much!
> 
> I am not an expert on pedals, but from what i have seen, you may want to look into it for your needs.
> It seems that a number of companies (Electro-Harmonix among them) are into that market.
> ...




I have never been able to use a synth patch on my guitar in Logic - only been able to use the guitar patches or Amp simulator therein and other effects

Is there an actual way to accomplish this?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 23, 2020)

EpicEsquire said:


> I have never been able to use a synth patch on my guitar in Logic - only been able to use the guitar patches or Amp simulator therein and other effects
> 
> Is there an actual way to accomplish this?


Quite a few synths offer a plugin version of their FXS + preamp section.
So, in this case, you would just insert that VST into your channel.
Or re-amp your track if you own an amp, or re-amp it into your favorite guitar rig...
Good filters is one of the biggest perks of putting your track through a module

And there are so many cool saturation plugins these days that it may be a good option as well.
The sky is no longer a limit!


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## MartinH. (Jul 24, 2020)

I tried two different Nalex ampsims yesterday and I think they are very much worth checking out. Fairly new and not very well know yet, but I see a lot of potential here. Give them a shot, they're donationware and free to download:






NaLex Software







nalexsoft.blogspot.com


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## YaniDee (Jul 24, 2020)

You would think that Amplitube 4 with it's plethora of amp & cab models, choices of mics, mic placement, speaker types, room irs, etc would be held in high regard, but it barely gets a mention here. I'm debating getting the Max version on sale..bad choice?


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## MartinH. (Jul 24, 2020)

YaniDee said:


> You would think that Amplitube 4 with it's plethora of amp & cab models, choices of mics, mic placement, speaker types, room irs, etc would be held in high regard, but it barely gets a mention here. I'm debating getting the Max version on sale..bad choice?



Iirc Amplitube Metal was free for a while recently. I grabbed it but never installed it because someone here mentioned not being very fond of it.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jul 24, 2020)

Patrick de Caumette said:


> Quite a few synths offer a plugin version of their FXS + preamp section.



Could you steer me in the right direction?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jul 24, 2020)

EpicEsquire said:


> Could you steer me in the right direction?


I just did a search under "inputting a guitar into a synth"
You'll get plenty of entries to choose from...
Have fun!


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## lp59burst (Jul 24, 2020)

YaniDee said:


> You would think that Amplitube 4 with it's plethora of amp & cab models, choices of mics, mic placement, speaker types, room irs, etc would be held in high regard, but it barely gets a mention here. I'm debating getting the Max version on sale..bad choice?



It used to be my "goto" sim... but now, I can't remember the last time I used it.

It's not that it's bad, it's actually quite good, but I rarely use it anymore because other sims have passed it by in my opinion.

_Helix Native_ for instance... it's one of the best sims out there and it's now my "goto" sim. 
Maybe when (if) Amplitube 5 ever comes out I may give it a whirl but for now I've moved on.


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## lp59burst (Jul 24, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I tried two different Nalex ampsims yesterday and I think they are very much worth checking out. Fairly new and not very well know yet, but I see a lot of potential here. Give them a shot, they're donationware and free to download:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I sorry but "_meh_"... they *all* sound the same to me... oversaturated mush... but that's just my opinion.


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## bvaughn0402 (Jul 24, 2020)

My goto is Fractal AxeFX. Always has been.

After that, I do like Helix, then Amplitube. I've been playing around with a few extra plugins that have lots of promise.


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## ryst (Jul 24, 2020)

Over the last 2 years I started getting into Neural DSP. I have Archetype Nolly, Abasi, Plini as well as the Nameless & Fortin Suites. Excellent amps.


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## telecode101 (Jul 25, 2020)

..


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