# Joe Kraemer dishes on the Hollywood system



## dcoscina (Jan 28, 2021)

I always respected Joe and now, even more so. I'm sure this is career suicide for him but I still respect his integrity. 

Compiled From his Twitter post: 

This is a sad truth for everyone trying to make it in show business - it is virtually impossible for people who are neither born into money or born into the business. And it IS a business - money is the bottom line. As one very successful producer recently told me "Joe, no one gives a shit about your art". I can count the number of mainstream Hollywood composers that I KNOW write all their music themselves on one hand, John Williams being the most famous example. Everyone else is a team leader, a figurehead for a team of composers who are getting no credit, very little money, and no job security. None of us have any job security anyway. 

One of my closest friends made a deal behind my back that swindled me out of hundreds of thousands of dollars and then dumped me for a Zimling and this was after assuring me that working for him/her was the same as having a "savings bond". In 2010, having score "The Way of The Gun" and close to 40 TV movies for the Hallmark Channel, I was so broke I had to sell my CDs and DVDs to feed my son. This is not a pity-party for me. 

This is just a reality check for people who dream of scoring movies in Hollywood: It is a cutthroat community of people who are in the business to get rich and famous. Writing music of any quality is secondary to that ultimate goal ) And keep in mind, being an artist is not a civil right - no one owes me anything, even the ex-friend who swindled me. 

Making art is a hobby, and if we can manage to make some money from it, so much the better. I promise to always do my best to write all the music in anything I score myself, and if I don't, to properly credit the people who co-write with me (i.e. 
@PenkaKouneva on #Pandora). I promise not to hire an 'assistant' who is really a ghost-writer. I promise to do my best not to just copy the temp, but to contribute to the film in a meaningful way. 

These promises have definitely impeded progress in my career - I haven't scored a single mainstream Hollywood movie since 'Rogue Nation'. But I also haven't ripped anyone off, or swindled my friends, or presented a false impression of myself to directors, producers, or studio execs. 

To the OP, Nadia, thank you for sharing your story. There are a lot of hard truths that need to be shown to those who hope to join this business. I think often of a quote once heard, spoken by one of the cinema's greatest composers: "I got into this business to make a living. Now people get into it to make a killing." 

In closing, let me reiterate, this is not whining - this is a tough business, and it's not for the faint of heart to undertake. It can be wonderfully rewarding, but it is also impossibly challenging. I hope it can evolve to a community that helps each other rather than competes with each other.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 28, 2021)

All I can say is that I personally know some pretty famous composers, having helped them with Logic, and they are not only in it for the money.


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## dcoscina (Jan 28, 2021)

Ashermusic said:


> All I can say is that I personally know some pretty famous composers, having helped them with Logic, and they are not only in it for the money.


I don't live in LA, but Kraemer's indictment jives with what people that I know who work in the system say. I think his thing about composing being a rich person's venture is largely true. How many composers balanced working 60 hrs a week at a non music job while they wrote music after hours to get their big break? Coming from money affords those more time to dedicate to the craft. It also doesn't hurt for connections as well. 

I'd love to know about a good example of rags-to-riches story of a normal bloke who rose to a reputable station in the film scoring arena, or even the concert world. I read that Phil Glass drove cabs when he was younger but that was about it. When Jerry Goldsmith got started, he was a typist for the studio then worked his way into scoring television. So he had a liveable wage AND he was generating credits to his name.


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## allen-garvey (Jan 28, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I'd love to know about a good example of rags-to-riches story of a normal bloke who rose to a reputable station in the film scoring arena, or even the concert world. I read that Phil Glass drove cabs when he was younger but that was about it. When Jerry Goldsmith got started, he was a typist for the studio then worked his way into scoring television. So he had a liveable wage AND he was generating credits to his name.


I don't know if it counts as a true rags-to-riches story, but Michael Giacchino's story is pretty interesting. According to Wikipedia he got an unpaid internship at Universal and worked at Macy's at night, then got a job at Universal for publicity, then got a job as a producer for Disney Interactive where he hired himself to write music for Disney games.

Philip Glass also worked as a mover and plumber as well.


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 28, 2021)

Nadia's blog post that led to Joe's Tweets









to be or not to be a composer’s assistant


lately i’ve been thinking about how much of a financial struggle it is to be a composer’s assistant in Los Angeles. it seems that there really isn’t a way to work for a composer w…



nadia.audio


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## axb312 (Jan 28, 2021)

Link to the Tweet?


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## MusiquedeReve (Jan 28, 2021)

axb312 said:


> Link to the Tweet?


Joe was responding to this Tweet -- click on it and you can read the entire thread


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## José Herring (Jan 28, 2021)

Jesus what a bunch of whining babies. Why don't they try crying that shit to the person that's had to work two part time low wage jobs for 30 years while trying to raise a family. 

I don't know Joe or Nadia but Jesus Christ they come off as self entitle brats.

You make money doing music. You make a little or a lot. It's the life you chose. Stop crying about it.


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## dcoscina (Jan 29, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Jesus what a bunch of whining babies. Why don't they try crying that shit to the person that's had to work two part time low wage jobs for 30 years while trying to raise a family.
> 
> I don't know Joe or Nadia but Jesus Christ they come off as self entitle brats.
> 
> You make money doing music. You make a little or a lot. It's the life you chose. Stop crying about it.


Free speech brother. Free speech. And Joe is a good guy. I don’t think it’s whining, I think it’s a sign of the times. Things were different a couple decades ago. It’s tough for folks now, in all industries.


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## Markrs (Jan 29, 2021)

I also think Nadia and Joe and opening up what the industry is like so people go into it with their eyes open.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 29, 2021)

I am not in THAT circuit but all I know is that music is a risky business. It is THE risky business.

Trying to make a living from music is notoriously a 95%-5% ratio of success (less?). It's blood and tears. Ups and downs. Flights and crushes. Gotta be ready. 

To be an artist and make a comfortable living from it is a privileged position compared to 90% of humanity probably doing jobs they don't like (If managing to work at all). 
It is a high aspiration. You gotta be ready for everything. Be ready for failure too.

Is it fair? Is justice a part of it? Do only the best people go to the top? How many geniuses there are out there flipping burgers? The answers are: No, No, No, Many.

I hate it as the next guy, I wish Hans would hire me (I do have ideas!), I wish I could prepare coffees for Silvestri (my coffees are top notch) and watch him work, I wish Hollywood decision makers would flock to my email by the hundreds.

Having said that, I am sympathetic with Joe and feel the pain of many people (including my own), it is effed up for sure....
I know and have worked with people who were real international rock-stars for a few years, then faded professionally. It is probably even more difficult once you make it to admit you have fallen from grace.

Unfortunately, I just don't see anything useful to do other then acknowledge reality and decide if to fight, risking everything, or flee.

Sorry not a cheerful post.... 
I really wish the best to everyone


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## ed buller (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm NOT going to go too far here for obvious reasons but there is a spectacular amount of distortion and inaccuracies in those tweets and threads. libellous in many places !

I have worked for a while at Remote Control. For Hans and other composers. The first time I wrote a cue I got cue-sheet and credit. Yes there are people who have worked there who take the piss. But not Hans.....Or Lorne...or many many others. There is some truth to the fact that you really shouldn't rely on getting a living wage when you start , and yes many of the people there come from wealthy backgrounds but others don't. Steve Mazzaro was found on youtube !

As to stolen software that is utter nonsense. Chuck Choi , the main tech there runs the place like an Aircraft Carrier. NOTHING goes on one of his computers without him approving it....far too much is at stake. No updates, no new toys...plug-ins..etc...They are always in the middle of several things and it would be chaos if you screwed up a session because you installed a crack plug in....

I don't believe that tweet is from Hans either....

best

ed


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## Andrajas (Jan 29, 2021)

ed buller said:


> I'm NOT going to go to far here for obvious reasons but there is a spectacular amount of distortion and inaccuracies in those tweets and threads. libellous in many places !
> 
> I have worked for a while at Remote Control. For Hans and other composers. The first time I wrote a cue I got cue-sheet and credit. Yes there are people who have worked there who take the piss. But not Hans.....Or Lorne...or many many others. There is some truth to the fact that you really shouldn't rely on getting a living wage when you start , and yes many of the people there come from wealthy backgrounds but others don't. Steve Mazzaro was found on youtube !
> 
> ...


How long ago was it you worked at RC? Things can change over time...but obviously I have no clue.

the “tweet” you mean the Facebook post? Yes it’s the man himself.


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## mr (Jan 29, 2021)

Hmm, to me it sounds like nadia.audio asks for fair compensation of composers assistants, and on another topic HZ suggest compensation of some sort for using someones sample library (i.e. someones work).

Sounds to me they are both on the same page (if its really HZ posting)?

Also, from reading VI posts, HZ has promoted „finding your own voice“ and collaborations several times.

Working with what you got to unlock your creativity... there is some trueth to that?

I dont know HZ. From talking to a former RC composer, the working environment there sounded to me a bit like investment banking, so its not for everyone, very demanding, long hours, high attention to detail for seemingly boring tasks required, and so on.
But, there is a huge benefit in working in a team of composers/producers. Always a pair of fresh ears available, so many opportunities to learn from each other, combining each others strengths.

On the software: I can‘t imagine people just installing cracked stuff on the systems at RC. There is just too much at stake. Their system must be huge, and an enormous task to run it smoothly


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## Andrajas (Jan 29, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Jesus what a bunch of whining babies. Why don't they try crying that shit to the person that's had to work two part time low wage jobs for 30 years while trying to raise a family.
> 
> I don't know Joe or Nadia but Jesus Christ they come off as self entitle brats.
> 
> You make money doing music. You make a little or a lot. It's the life you chose. Stop crying about it.


Calm down a bit 😅... living on minimal wage and work constantly in a job and still have not enough money to go by, is never ok no matter what. Didn’t come a cross like whining to me, just putting things into perspective of what it looks like in the industry


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## ed buller (Jan 29, 2021)

Andrajas said:


> How long ago was it you worked at RC? Things can change over time...but obviously I have no clue.
> 
> the “tweet” you mean the Facebook post? Yes it’s the man himself.


on and off 2014-2018.

e


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## JonS (Jan 29, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I always respected Joe and now, even more so. I'm sure this is career suicide for him but I still respect his integrity.
> 
> Compiled From his Twitter post:
> 
> ...


This is very true. I've been telling people for a long time how brutal this business is to make it in. One needs tremendous luck to become a top composer of film and tv. I don't care how talented anyone is in this biz, talent is no where near the most important ingredient to success, luck is. It also significantly helps if either your family or best friends are powerful A-list directors or producers or composers in Hollywood ie. Thomas Newman, Randy Newman, David Newman, Justin Hurwitz, Howard Shore. Coming from money also makes things that much easier ie. Hans Zimmer. I've had A-list composers blatantly steal my music and dealt with scumbag producers, some of whom pretended to be my friend, who have no problem lying to your face and paying you 1/5th to 1/50th of what the studio expects to pay a composer simply because they have no honor and no character. The A-list composers who are making it have no clue just how lucky they are. It's a given that every composer has to work incredibly hard, that's irrelevant. Other than John Williams, cream does not rise to the top, and even John Williams, my favorite film composer, is a master of plagiarizing from the classical catalogue. This biz can be ruthless and I do not recommend anyone pursue a career as a film or tv composer....The best way to make it as a film and tv composer is when the industry seeks you out to work on a production not the other way around.


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## vgamer1982 (Jan 29, 2021)

The biggest problem for me is whilst it has the veneer of integrity and he's clearly a very fine composer, if somewhat old-school, it's also extremely condescending. It boils down to "I think I'm better than them", and any time you're adding that into the mix, others will beat you out. The collective noun "zimling" - if you've been in that circle, to him you are de facto _inferior. _Marked out as different. Maybe it's not intended that way, I'm sure he's a nice guy, but that veneer is there.

It's the music business; "a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs". Expecting it to be any different is absurd. Expecting to score one hollywood movie and have a job for life is insanity. You're only as good as your current gig.

At the end of the day, people liked the music of (and working with) and the numbers of other people better. And "swindled" out of hundreds of thousands...I think this probably means someone else was hired instead of him, or an option wasn't exercised. If you don't have a hard and fast contract, you're _not_ on the project, no matter how many promises have been made verbally. Otherwise you lawyer up.


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## dcoscina (Jan 29, 2021)

Joe has posted a followup



> I want to thank everyone for their supportive comments about my posts yesterday. Understandably, I've seen a lot of responses that focus on the 'doom and gloom' but let me counter that with some positives: Since 'Rogue Nation', I have been busier than ever - just not on mainstream Hollywood movies - I have scored 'The Man Who Killed Hitler and then Then Bigfoot', 'Emily and The Magical Journey', 'Sunrise' and 'Fluorescent Beast', the tv shows 'Pandora' and 'Creeped Out', the mini-series 'Comrade Detective', and a dozen shorts and pilots, all of which have been warmly received by viewers and listeners. A lifelong dream has come true and my music is being performed by orchestras around the world in concerts (such as the recent AGENTS ARE FOREVER by the Danish National Symphony Orchestra).
> 
> I have also written dozens of hours of music for one of my favorite franchises, 'Doctor Who', for Big Finish Audio, a company that makes full-cast audio dramas, which have all the sonic impact of movies, without the visual component. This is all to say that there are lots of wonderful opportunities for composers outside the relatively narrow field of mainstream Hollywood Movies. I am a composer and I write music whenever I can. I am very happy to be working with wonderful people now, on projects I enjoy, projects that are artistically fulfilling. If mainstream Hollywood comes knocking, I am delighted to answer the door, but in the meantime, I am very happy to keep working on things I love
> 
> ...


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## William The Concurer (Jan 29, 2021)

Phillip Glass and Steve Reich ran a removal company.


allen-garvey said:


> Philip Glass also worked as a mover and plumber as well.


He had a moving company with...Steve Reich. They put in very little effort, though. In fact, it was minimal.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 29, 2021)

I saw Joe's Twitter and was actually encouraged! Mainly with this statement:



> I am very happy to be working with wonderful people now, on projects I enjoy, projects that are artistically fulfilling. If mainstream Hollywood comes knocking, I am delighted to answer the door, but in the meantime, I am very happy to keep working on things I love


FWIW, Hans seems to also exude this same kind of positivity when talking about his projects.


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## Markrs (Jan 29, 2021)

kmaster said:


> That's not Nadia's reply...


apologies I thought it was her reply. have now removed that from the post


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## JonS (Jan 29, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I saw Joe's Twitter and was actually encouraged! Mainly with this statement:
> 
> 
> FWIW, Hans seems to also exude this same kind of positivity when talking about his projects.


Hans is worth $100 million. Do you actually expect anyone that rich and successful to be gloomy, depressed, and negative about their career? Hans has been very lucky to become so successful. I don't think Joe's positive pr spin statement was as sincere as others may think. He's got a public face he needs to maintain to keep his biz going. Joe's initial statement was spot on correct.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 29, 2021)

I followed some branches of that twitter thread and there was some story about the Simpsons which sounded bad, anyone know more about that?


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Jan 29, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> I followed some branches of that twitter thread and there was some story about the Simpsons which sounded bad, anyone know more about that?











Fox Says Discovery About ‘Simpsons’ Composer Culminated in Firing


In new court papers, ‘Simpsons’ producers say they were surprised and disturbed to learn that Alf Clausen was having his son and others create music for the animated comedy. Fox demands…




www.hollywoodreporter.com


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## dcoscina (Jan 29, 2021)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> I feel like taking a shower.
> The curtain has been pulled back, and I don’t like what I see.


I know people in the Toronto film business (mostly screenwriters) and even decades ago they warned me against moving to LA. They said it’s a scummy biz down there. That’s saying a lot because I thought the biz up here was pretty shady too.


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## dcoscina (Jan 29, 2021)

JonS said:


> Hans is worth $100 million. Do you actually expect anyone that rich and successful to be gloomy, depressed, and negative about their career? Hans has been very lucky to become so successful. I don't think Joe's positive pr spin statement was as sincere as others may think. He's got a public face he needs to maintain to keep his biz going. Joe's initial statement was spot on correct.


Conrad Pope gave a terrific interview with ScoreCast years ago. I listen to it almost every month. It shed a lot of light on the system. However, I learned that some of his candid statements hurt his career after. Now he only posts super positive things about collaborators he’s worked with (Menk where it’s clear he and the jazz arranger wrote most of that score as it sounds nothing like Reznor/Ross’ previous body of work- but even privately he says nothing but glowing things)

Shame. I enjoyed his honesty about the system down there. He’s also an amazingly skilled and articulate composer/orchestrator/educator. There are more composers than i can count that owe him a BIG time.

you have to wonder why giants like Don Davis, Elliot Goldenthal (Save for his work with partner Julie Taymor) and Bruce Broughton walked from film scoring. Their compositional voices are dearly missed


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## JohnG (Jan 29, 2021)

My only contact with HZ was him helping me for no reason other than his generosity.

I had posted about a style he knew and had researched, that I didn't. He reached out after reading my post that described the project, and very generously offered quite specific, extensive, and usable help. He doesn't / didn't know me, just being kind and taking his time to give me a hand out of the blue.

Apart from that, a few points:

1. HZ missed out on at least one award consideration specifically because he gave cue sheet credit to composers on the project who, in someone else's shop, might have been left off;

2. He was instrumental (!) in launching, or at least enhancing, the careers of many other composers, including John Powell's, according to an interview JP gave that I assume is still accessible publicly;

3. I was in the office at a well-known music store some years ago and one of HZ's staff called in and ordered a huge number of sample libraries -- bought and paid for, not cracked.

Look, IDK the guy but my information suggests that he deserves the benefit of the doubt, in a difficult business that seems to ferment negativity. Sure, he's had some luck, but he also reportedly routinely works until 2, 3, 4 AM, then comes back and does it again.

It's rough working for a big studio. There are many opinions and many people with the authority to give "notes" that may sound like they are from Mars. Navigating and interpreting all that can be confusing, especially from the outside and, often, even from the inside.

*Luck?*

I do agree with @JonS that luck is very important, but I think that's true of any endeavor, from law to real estate sales to academe. Everyone needs that one contact / mentor / big sale / unexpected hit that helps you get over the top.

Nevertheless, when that piece of luck comes along, it's up to the composer or whomever to actually deliver.


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## MauroPantin (Jan 29, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Conrad Pope gave a terrific interview with ScoreCast years ago. I listen to it almost every month.


I remember that interview. Is that available anywhere? I couldn't find it on ScoreCast's feed anymore. Conrad is such an amazingly talented composer and orchestrator...


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## JonS (Jan 29, 2021)

JohnG said:


> My only contact with HZ was him helping me with a style he knew and had researched, that I didn't. He reached out after reading a post of mine describing the project, and very generously offered quite specific, extensive, and usable help. He doesn't / didn't know me, just being kind and taking his time to give me a hand out of the blue.
> 
> Apart from that, a few points:
> 
> ...


I agree with you, John.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 29, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Conrad Pope gave a terrific interview with ScoreCast years ago. I listen to it almost every month. It shed a lot of light on the system. However, I learned that some of his candid statements hurt his career after. Now he only posts super positive things about collaborators he’s worked with (Menk where it’s clear he and the jazz arranger wrote most of that score as it sounds nothing like Reznor/Ross’ previous body of work- but even privately he says nothing but glowing things)
> 
> Shame. I enjoyed his honesty about the system down there. He’s also an amazingly skilled and articulate composer/orchestrator/educator. There are more composers than i can count that owe him a BIG time.
> 
> you have to wonder why giants like Don Davis, Elliot Goldenthal (Save for his work with partner Julie Taymor) and Bruce Broughton walked from film scoring. Their compositional voices are dearly missed


The Scorecast Pope interview has been erased, seems to me.


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## Markrs (Jan 29, 2021)

JohnG said:


> My only contact with HZ was him helping me with a style he knew and had researched, that I didn't. He reached out after reading a post of mine describing the project, and very generously offered quite specific, extensive, and usable help. He doesn't / didn't know me, just being kind and taking his time to give me a hand out of the blue.
> 
> Apart from that, a few points:
> 
> ...


Great hearing how helpful Hans was given how crazy busy he is. All the posts I have seen from him have been generous and helpful. 

At the end of the day, he is human like the rest of us and sometimes we don't always say things as we should.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 29, 2021)

I want to hear more about assistants making minimum wage in LA while working on mega-millions projects.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 29, 2021)

JonS said:


> Hans is worth $100 million. Do you actually expect anyone that rich and successful to be gloomy, depressed, and negative about their career? Hans has been very lucky to become so successful. I don't think Joe's positive pr spin statement was as sincere as others may think. He's got a public face he needs to maintain to keep his biz going. Joe's initial statement was spot on correct.


Good point, @JonS.

I have no desire to argue with you, but I will say that your posts (in this and other threads) come across as very bitter and cynical. But, as someone who works in the industry, you are certainly entitled to that perspective.

As an outsider myself, threads like these are really depressing. I bet I'm not alone in this - there are a lot of folks on the forum who are interested in working in film. Do you have any advice for those people? Other than 'abandon hope, give up and keep your day job'?

That is why I found Joe's comment encouraging - because he has found a way to enjoy the work he is doing even if it's not in Hollywood. It's a big world out there, so surely there are opportunities to score to picture without being crushed by the grist mill of LA.

Cheers


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## JonS (Jan 29, 2021)

JonS said:


> I agree with you, John.


Being successful in many professions requires quite a bit of some special sauce: luck, connections, big break, nepotism, etc... However, all of the composers I can think of for film and tv are definitely talented, some more than others, and exceptionally hard working, so I did not mean to imply that getting lucky is all it takes to succeed in life, one has to work very hard most of the time and have some varying degree of talent and skill to maintain and foster one's career path. On a side note, I love a lot of Hans Zimmer's scores and think Hans has incredible talent, so no matter how lucky I think Hans has been, I was not implying he doesn't work very hard and isn't extremely talented at what he does. I think luck (or call it divine providence, God, the Universe, Fate, cosmic order...) plays the most significant role in life, but each of us still has to try our best to manifest the full bloom of our heavenly gardens in this realm.


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## ed buller (Jan 29, 2021)

JonS said:


> Hans is worth $100 million. Do you actually expect anyone that rich and successful to be gloomy, depressed, and negative about their career? Hans has been very lucky to become so successful. I don't think Joe's positive pr spin statement was as sincere as others may think. He's got a public face he needs to maintain to keep his biz going. Joe's initial statement was spot on correct.


He came into my room one night whilst working on Dunkirk. He was in a very dark place.....all the thoughts you described with the added weight of delivering an enormously complex score ( believe me high level math!) . He didn't have locked picture or a final cut..When he wrote a cue it got processed then the film cut changed and the process had to catch up. Stress.....Misery...self doubt....gloom....dark dark depression. yup all there. Plus a ridiculous lack of sleep . And meanwhile trying to look after and promote 10 other people's careers and prepare for a sixth month world tour!!!...and deal with people who weren't helping ( at that point Me ! )


There really is a reason he is successful. 


best

ed


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 29, 2021)

I always thought that the only people who dream of getting a break in the show business must be the ones who have completely wrong ideas about it.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 29, 2021)

Seems to me HZ saw someone asking "what can I get that's free?" on a forum and responded saying "hey you should pay for good stuff because sample developers need to eat too". Which in itself is totally fair enough. Nothing really to see here?


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## Gingerbread (Jan 29, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Seems to me HZ saw someone asking "what can I get that's free?" on a forum and responded saying "hey you should pay for good stuff because sample developers need to eat too". Which in itself is totally fair enough. Nothing really to see here?


That's my take as well. It's the same sentiment that is often expressed here in these forums. As in, musicians deserve to be paid for their work, and not mooched!

And in this case, he was sticking up for some poor anonymous Erhu player who deserves some recompense for their skill and experience. What the hell should be controversial about that??


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## MauroPantin (Jan 29, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> It often is, but some situations are by definition binary. What would the middle be here? He half understood the guy's request? Or he understood and meant to suggest something, but the words came out all wrong and ended up berating the guy as if he asked for cracked software?


I think he means in a more general sense, rather than in that particular interaction. And I believe he's right, there's truth somewhere in the middle.

The criticisms and things that are being spoken out probably have a partial truth to them. I'm sure being an assistant to a top level composer is grueling. Deadlines are insane for a composer and that surely trickles down. A lot is riding on things working out, it's a very high pressure environment, being an assistant to anyone is never a high-paying job, LA is an expensive place to live, etc.

It's the part about characterizing top composers as some sort of group of demons running a torture dungeon of interns for their amusement that does not ring true at all. To me "They don't care about us!" is not a good argument from an employee referring to a business owner, ever. If you are running a business with hundreds of employees then yeah, you don't care. Not because you're a horrible human being, but just because it is impossible to care at the level of detail they demand and get the job done at the same time. Businesses have bottom lines that have to work out so that everyone can keep working, it's the name of the game. In medium to big-sized companies the employer doesn't care, and he doesn't say "thanks". In the words of Don Draper, "That's what the money is for". 

Of course, I understand that wages are not great and they are getting minimum wage and it is barely livable in LA. That is another discussion that I think is not exclusive to music composer assistants but rather, as I humbly understand it from the other side of the planet, the entire US economy that allows for working people to be put in a position that is one bad car breakdown or a few sick days from poverty.

Also, I doubt HZ would have trouble procuring licenses of every possible sample library under the sun for the people that work for him. Moreover, we all know he has his own bespoke sampler and sample libraries. So I would think he's perfectly able to provide the tools needed for his employees, and it is very likely that this can be done at $0 cost to him.

Finally, we've interacted with Hans on this very forum. My take at least is that he's not a crazy megalomaniac. Of course he's life is radically different than most other folk. But still, he's a dude on the internet. He's allowed to have a bad day or a bad interaction, or be prone to a misunderstanding (which is what I believe happened here). He's also been super generous here with his time or advice numerous times.

This is all not to say that there are valid points to the overall critique of the industry. But I believe some of the complaints are just unrealistic misconceptions of what it means to work under the gun in projects worth millions of dollars.


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## JonS (Jan 29, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Good point, @JonS.
> 
> I have no desire to argue with you, but I will say that your posts (in this and other threads) come across as very bitter and cynical. But, as someone who works in the industry, you are certainly entitled to that perspective.
> 
> ...


I am not saying one cannot make it in LA as a composer. I think as a pursuit it's not the kind of career path that easily unfolds from a predicable and controlled stratagem unlike other professions ie. lawyer, doctor, soldier, welder, nurse, pilot, professor, real estate broker, marketer, advertiser, fireman, police officer, etc. Getting a master in film scoring doesn't necessarily lead to a career as a composer for film and television. I think if one doesn't have major connections to get a break in the biz as a composer, then one could try getting a gig as an assistant for a composer, sound editor, sound designer, engineer, orchestrator, music producer. There have also been numerous people who started their own sample library company or worked for a company that provides services or equipment for the film and tv industry. 

And, there are both honorable and nice people in Hollywood, I wish there were more of them, but they do exist. Am I a cynic? Yes, but not the kind I think you are implying. Cynicism is a school of thought from ancient Greek philosophy which prescribed a way to practice life through virtue, ethics and in harmony with nature. It's misunderstood in modern civilization. The original skeptics were simply searching for Truth ie. Diogenes. I definitely value kindness as one of the more important traits one can possess along with compassion and magnanimity. As one gets older and becomes more experienced it's unfortunate to witness so much tragedy and injustice in the world. I have no clue how to fix this. All I can do is be a good person to those who cross my path. I tend to believe each of our souls are eternal, and that we are someone bound to each other in the scope of infinity. It's not all doom and gloom, but if one studies the history of the world, tragedy and struggle make more than cameo guest appearances sadly. Wishing you good luck in your pursuits!!


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 29, 2021)

JonS said:


> I am not saying one cannot make it in LA as a composer. I think as a pursuit it's not the kind of career path that easily unfolds from a predicable and controlled stratagem unlike other professions ie. lawyer, doctor, soldier, welder, nurse, pilot, professor, real estate broker, marketer, advertiser, fireman, police officer, etc. Getting a master in film scoring doesn't necessarily lead to a career as a composer for film and television. I think if one doesn't have major connections to get a break in the biz as a composer, then one could try getting a gig as an assistant for a composer, sound editor, sound designer, engineer, orchestrator, music producer. There have also been numerous people who started their own sample library company or worked for a company that provides services or equipment for the film and tv industry.
> 
> And, there are both honorable and nice people in Hollywood, I wish there were more of them, but they do exist. Am I a cynic? Yes, but not the kind I think you are implying. Cynicism is a school of thought from ancient Greek philosophy which prescribed a way to practice life through virtue, ethics and in harmony with nature. It's misunderstood in modern civilization. The original skeptics were simply searching for Truth ie. Diogenes. I definitely value kindness as one of the more important traits one can possess along with compassion and magnanimity. As one gets older and becomes more experienced it's unfortunate to witness so much tragedy and injustice in the world. I have no clue how to fix this. All I can do is be a good person to those who cross my path. I tend to believe each of our souls are eternal, and that we are someone bound to each other in the scope of infinity. It's not all doom and gloom, but if one studies the history of the world, tragedy and struggle make more than cameo guest appearances sadly. Wishing you good luck in your pursuits!!


Thank you for taking time to reply, @JonS. That makes sense.

I meant no offense with the cynic comment. Wishing you the best as well.


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## CT (Jan 29, 2021)

Gingerbread said:


> I've only seen the quotes posted in this thread. From those, I didn't see any particularly dickish behavior. Telling someone to pay a fair price for something instead of expecting it for free is the opposite of dickish behavior. It's basic responsibility toward fellow musicians.
> 
> If there were other quotes that haven't been posted in this thread, I can't speak to those. But from what _has_ been presented here, there's no there there.


Yes, there was I think one other post in which he cruelly talked about the possibilities of homegrown samples and "getting creative with what you have," you know, that kind of thing. The bloodthirsty monster.


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## JonS (Jan 29, 2021)

ed buller said:


> He came into my room one night whilst working on Dunkirk. He was in a very dark place.....all the thoughts you described with the added weight of delivering an enormously complex score ( believe me high level math!) . He didn't have locked picture or a final cut..When he wrote a cue it got processed then the film cut changed and the process had to catch up. Stress.....Misery...self doubt....gloom....dark dark depression. yup all there. Plus a ridiculous lack of sleep . And meanwhile trying to look after and promote 10 other people's careers and prepare for a sixth month world tour!!!...and deal with people who weren't helping ( at that point Me ! )
> 
> 
> There really is a reason he is successful.
> ...


LOL! Ed, I can totally relate to part of that reality!! Composing 130+ hours a week, week after week after week, composing and recording 6-8 minutes of finished music day after day for months on end, wondering in nanoseconds where your next musical idea will come from, dealing with last minute edits to the picture, etc....I know Hans is human too, and I was not implying he wasn't hard working and super talented either. Any composer in a tight production schedule, which is what happens most of the time, is gonna plow through all the emotions on the palette at some point while being as laser focused and productive as possible moment after moment, been there done that...But no matter how hard he works or how talented he is, there are a gazillion super talented composers that could be super successful too if they got the kind of luck one needs to get the momentum of that success train to unfold in their careers, that's all....The most successful people in life are not the one's who work the hardest, those people work in agricultural fields, slaughter houses, and clean dank subway bathrooms for little to no pay.


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## José Herring (Jan 29, 2021)

Hans is the hardest working composer I've ever seen. Once I witnessed that I realized that he deserves every bit of success he can get. He earned it. And, as far as I can see, he wasn't born into it and didn't come from any huge amount of money. So Joe's statements are false. 

Look people can vent all they want to. I'm fine with that. Joe Kraemer is a fine, fine composer and he should just stick to working hard and making what ever headway he can. The rant complaining about stuff that is common knowledge is just a distraction and reminds me of the times that I would hear from some many composers and agents that I should leave town because it's too tough. That was just a way to discourage the competition and I've noticed over the years that people that engage in that kind of talk don't last much longer because they actually start to believe it. Now they can spread that message to the multitude via social media. Post like that serve no purpose imo. 

Hard work does pay off. We've all been there selling CDs early on to put food on the table early on. No shame in that. I know I had to. I made it a game and brought my kid with me. He was 3 or 4 years old and he asked me what I was doing. I said all you have to do is sit there and act cute. Boy did he sell the cuteness. The guy behind the counter was practically throwing money our way.

So there are tough times for sure in this business. But there can be tough times for every business. After all essentially you are self employed. Some people work hard and make it big, HZ. Some people work hard and never make it. Some people go crazy, some people quit. Welcome to real life. It's a jungle. People die. It's life. If life and death weren't at stake it wouldn't be much fun. 

As far Hollywood being sleazy. All I can say is that people saying that never worked on Wall Street or the garment business, or as general contractors. Mankind is morally bankrupt. Hollywood is no different. Deal with it.

As far as Nadia. Hans' comment to that guy, I read it. That guy didn't take it personally. He took it in good humor (humour if you are British). Nadia should do the same. It was just kind of funny. And, look at it from Hans' perspective. When he was starting out he went into deep debt buying synths for his work. The investment paid off. He's talked about it many time. Investing in his career, and this dude advertises on a public forum looking for a free Erhu? I'm sorry but that's literally like a $50 investment. I mean even I get pissed off at that. When I read that guys post, I did a deep eye roll. Yeah, that showed him how I really felt. Yeah....


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## lettucehat (Jan 29, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Hard work does pay off.





José Herring said:


> Some people work hard and never make it.


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## José Herring (Jan 29, 2021)

Why is it so hard to believe that both statements are true? Some people work hard and it pays off. Some people work hard and it doesn't. 

Welcome to real life.


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## davidson (Jan 29, 2021)

Plot twist: Joe wrote that because he's trying to scare off any more competition moving to LA.


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## José Herring (Jan 29, 2021)

davidson said:


> Plot twist: Joe wrote that because he's trying to scare off any more competition moving to LA.


Does one really know the subconscious motivations of another? Hmmmm......

Honestly I'm no longer going to post. I can see this post is turning me to the dark side, filled with rage and anger. I mustn't give in. NOOOOOOOOO!


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## nolotrippen (Jan 29, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I always respected Joe and now, even more so. I'm sure this is career suicide for him but I still respect his integrity.
> 
> Compiled From his Twitter post:
> 
> ...


One of the last Columbos, Murder with Too Many Notes (2000) touched on this and that's 20 years ago.


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## JohnG (Jan 29, 2021)

MauroPantin said:


> unrealistic misconceptions of what it means to work under the gun in projects worth millions of dollars


yes, except it's hundreds of millions. When you are the last person to touch a project, whether that's a new Boeing aircraft, or a bridge, or a movie that cost $100mm to make and $100mm to promote, you can bet there is merciless pressure. 

It's not personal, it's just the way it is. If you've ever worked with IBM, or UPS, or any big company, you will know there is simply no room for failure. If you've been up for three days running but you have to keep going, people may privately feel some sympathy for you, but -- you had better keep going. National holidays? Not relevant. Haven't seen your family for three weeks? Can't be helped.



marclawsonmusic said:


> there are a lot of folks on the forum who are interested in working in film. Do you have any advice for those people? Other than 'abandon hope, give up and keep your day job'?


My highly opinionated advice (assuming you are not independently wealthy):

*1. Get as good as you possibly can at writing, and be yourself *-- musically and personally. Study a score at least once in a while. Volunteer to help people less fortunate. Tutor someone who needs help. Something.

*2. Meet your personal obligations -- *If you have dependents and you are the sole breadwinner, be sure to have some other way of making enough to meet those obligations. If anything's sacred, it's one's duty to spouse / children / disabled sibling to whom you've made an explicit or implicit commitment of support. How you make money matters to you, of course, but a sure way to corrosive unhappiness is to fail at your duty to others.

*3. It's a long game -- *Find a way to survive over 10 years or more -- For me, more! -- without destroying yourself (and meeting the obligations noted in bullet 2 above ^);

*4. Be Open to the Unexpected -- *Don't obsess about Marvel films or war movies or anything in particular. A friend wants incidental music for a play? Might seem like, at best, a detour, but then maybe not -- how about Mendelssohn's music for "Midsummer Night's Dream?" A dazzling bit of music written when he was 16 or 17. Consider video games too. They can require many iterations, but I have found that they will work with you over time, don't have the same intense deadlines that movies do, and often pay reasonably well up front.

*5. Think Like a Winner -- *Winners are always asking themselves, "what can I contribute?" first, rather than fixing on "what's in it for me?" That doesn't mean you should work for 10 years for peanuts, but it might mean you do a few favours here and there. Sometimes pretty big favours.

*6. Character Counts -- *You may get taken advantage of sometimes, in any business. Music / media is no exception and probably worse than some, because so many people in the business are short-term thinkers and chancers. I don't like working with those people because, first, I'm not like that, and second, I don't admire people who behave that way. Over time, I've been lucky to meet people who stick together a bit, who honour their professional and personal commitments, and who recognise really good work when they see it.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jan 29, 2021)

JohnG said:


> My highly opinionated advice (assuming you are not independently wealthy):


Thanks so much, @JohnG! Really appreciate you taking the time to articulate your thoughts here.


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jan 29, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Why is it so hard to believe that both statements are true? Some people work hard and it pays off. Some people work hard and it doesn't.
> 
> Welcome to real life.


Adding to that, I believe that there is a growing tendency, a disease perhaps, in our modern society to view itself not only helpless but handicapped in managing the unfair pressure that surrounds it, whether it concerns a composer or a startup tech company, whilst adhering to moral codes that ensure our mental composure and peace in the darkest of times.

But have folks forgotten that we no longer have Kings running around chopping heads off? The nearly abandoned idea of our new generation is perseverance through adversity, to leave a meaningful legacy which does not always equate success in society's severely flawed setting.

The end results do not matter, and shouldn't either. It is really unpleasant to witness hasty judgmental remarks, magnified by the fact that we are all connected, all the time.

The question is, at the end of the day what stories do we want to cherish? If you feel gloomy then you need to look at the world through another lens, and reconsider your priorities. But please, don't pursue the wrong path for the wrong reasons at the wrong time, and blame the world for your own actions and expectations. Which role model is going to bring you more peace, Gandhi or Bezos?

My intention is not to lecture anyone or sound like a pretentious monk, but I thought that a student is always in debt of its teacher, butI guess that is a novel concept to people who talk crap of others on Twitter, even though we are all imperfect.

Cheers


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Jan 29, 2021)

If you really think about it, that whole situation is incredibly silly and way overblown. Just like those french horns and trumpets in our midi mock-ups.

(cringe, I know)


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## MauroPantin (Jan 29, 2021)

Mark Kouznetsov said:


> If you really think about it, that whole situation is incredibly silly and way overblown. Just like those french horns and trumpets in our midi mock-ups.
> 
> (cringe, I know)


The thing is, there's several situations going on here. 

One is the comment in response to the sample request which is, to me at least, a misunderstanding and the least of the issues.

The other situation is the compensation of assistants. Unfair or ridiculous compensations, unpaid overtime, claims of this nature. If those claims are true, the complaints are understandable, IMO.

Another issue brought up by Joe is the backstabbing nature of the business. Not to be cynical, but this is to be found anywhere humans are. There's also great people and fantastic experiences to be found, as he said. But nobody is outraged about those things online, of course.

Finally, there is the pressure of this business in particular, we are (almost) the last task in the assembly line for projects with astronomical budgets that make of break studios. That is also not going to change. I'm all for fair payment, but nobody should expect these pressures to not manifest themselves every now and then whilst working. It's nice to have civility, but when there's 2 days to the deadline and cues are not finished as it tends to happen then shit is bound to hit the fan. There's a lot riding on these projects and it's just the name of the game. I don't think it is fair to say "nobody told me!". I don't know a single composer that wants to work in Hollywood that would be surprised by how demanding it is, everybody knows there's tremendous stress involved because it is mentioned in almost every single interview, it's like it is part of the job description.


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## PaulieDC (Jan 29, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I always respected Joe and now, even more so. I'm sure this is career suicide for him but I still respect his integrity.
> 
> Compiled From his Twitter post:
> 
> ...


Yikes, very good and very tough reality check. People used to say this as a joke but I'm really not going to quit my day job. I _will _say that I can't think of a better hobby, and like everyone else, definitely not in it for the money. I feel terrible for those that hoped it would be a way to support family, only to have it implode into the current situation.

I sure appreciate him being up front so expectations are real. Oy.


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## gsilbers (Jan 29, 2021)

Ill throw out a story maybe kinda related. More like a parellel to composing/remote control

I worked a bit at remote control and its true. very cut throught but since they have to do scores for 300million dollar movies i woudnt think any other way. 


Anyways, this is not about that but the way remote control is setup is similar to how many other studios in different areas of the entertaimment business are setup. 

I worked in a post studio that now does everything for amazon to disney and recently won an emmy for westorld. And its like 1 of the 14 studios that do stuff for disney, fox , universal etc. 

The owner of that studio is pretty much like HZ where he not only knows how to do things but its a great salesman. A very nice and cordial guys. I also met HZ so i know. Very very nice guy. But Salesman sounds dirty in our field but hollywood is litered with them all around. Thats one little secret not many tell about hollywood. 

Anyways, they get jobs in the door, they know who knows about what gig or who might get to have a gig soon. They get the gig, they know how to handle and deliver on time and they get the uprising talent. 
One time it was a colorist. when modern videofilm went under, another studio went in and talked to the colorist that does modern family tv show and bam... the whole post prodcution went to this new studio. And from there they met other prodcuers and knew about new shows coming up so they can bid and try to get that new show from disney or sony etc. 
Again, its a 14 or so studios (including deluxe, technicolor) in hollywood who are in the know. Very hard circel to crack. 
Hollywood is just a big buch of invisible spider webs criss crossing around town and just like bo jack horseman... its getting to know who can do what for you. 

So i think thats whats happening here or this new world in the composing field where studios, directors etc are not going to hire someone from their nice website or from a random submission or meeting them in a bar. These directors go where they know theyll get the best talent and theyll deliver. And they know the HZ brand/name and remote control prodcutions. So these names we follow for their music are pretty much a company. And like where i worked at, its just as easy to do something like that if u had the chance, yet almost imposible to do it cuz getting the job is very elusive. 

Not sure if you saw the video from Junkie xl where he was a few years in LA w/o any luck, layer talked to HZ and he was working as an assistant for him/HGW and then he started getting the gigs. 
And thats why LA is really a small town. 

So now of course we have a few big name composers and those are basically the companies running things. ITs a select few who are in the know. Who know where are gigs and where they come from. Have and develop the relationship with the prodcuers and dirctors and studios. 

And they hire poeple to do everything from composing, to orchestrating to sound design to recording, conducting etc. 
Im also seeing very nice cars and equipment from these top composers so im guessing maybe thats one thing thats a bit different. that sort of capital vs labor thing where the boss gets a bit greedy. Just guessing this part. i really dont know how it is. 
In the studio i worked it was very competitive priced so we get good salary, 401k, health etc. 
In the composing indsutry my guess its that someone like bryan tyler or junkie xl might one day not get the gig anymore because lack of security on getting the gig. Which is normal in hollywood all around. And even more so for less known composers who are well known to us but for the average joe its not. 

My assumption is the change of the way hollywood does business in general related to how HZ and others setup the composing like a business, which is not like the old pencil and papaer and piano showing the director how the melody of the character is going t sound and other iconinc john wililiam/spiealberg way of doing things.... but still think of the workers co-wirters etc are still being done the same way, like studio assistants or interns. 

We all know that its very few prodcutions that pay well enough. so that trickle down economy topple with the fact that there are now 30000000 times more composers than before everyone trying to get that bone... and eveyone of those composers can do very good things since theyve been using very good samples and have the expertise. Free market is a bitch. We always "want" it to be better. and coulda woulda shoulda be a certain way. So either with being bithcy on twitter or wearing a che guevara shirt rising a fist... things are not going to change easily.


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## dgburns (Jan 29, 2021)

ed buller said:


> He came into my room one night whilst working on Dunkirk. He was in a very dark place.....all the thoughts you described with the added weight of delivering an enormously complex score ( believe me high level math!) . He didn't have locked picture or a final cut..When he wrote a cue it got processed then the film cut changed and the process had to catch up. Stress.....Misery...self doubt....gloom....dark dark depression. yup all there. Plus a ridiculous lack of sleep . And meanwhile trying to look after and promote 10 other people's careers and prepare for a sixth month world tour!!!...and deal with people who weren't helping ( at that point Me ! )
> 
> 
> There really is a reason he is successful.
> ...


Stress misery self doubt gloom doom dark depression.

Would you want it any other way ??

Actually, yes I would. But I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s just not realistic, so if I had to give him advice if he walked into MY room, I’d say ‘enjoy the madness, because before you know it, it will be over, and it’s really about what you do when the chips are down‘ there will be plenty of time to laugh about it after the fact over a good glass of wine and whatevr else. The worst is when the calls stop coming in. We define ourselves by the choices we make when in the middle of battle. Some run, some stay and see it through.

and FYI, getting called out as a putz for wanting a free product just does not move the needle for me. If the kids get insulted over that, they are softer than I thought.


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## youngpokie (Jan 29, 2021)

Mark Kouznetsov said:


> If you accept working full-time, you should be aware what you're getting into. If you accept, than KNOW what you're accepting, see the benefits for YOU (could be a career step, or money, whatever). It's how the world WORKS.



"_That's how the world works...._" 
- Melvin Capital


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## Barrel Maker (Jan 29, 2021)

I worked at Remote, and knew Hans to be a good person, and very generous in regards to collaboration and sharing credit. Unfortunately, there are (or were) many composers on and off the campus who blatantly violated labor laws and used retaliatory threats to silence people--bad apples I suppose, but there's no excuse for it. Period.


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## davidson (Jan 30, 2021)

So what we can conclude is that sometimes there are 'bosses' who are arseholes, and sometimes there are 'employees' who are arseholes. Who would've thunk it.


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## Ivan M. (Jan 30, 2021)

Things like this are eye opening. Exactly what keeps me away from "it's ugly bloody majesty the industry". 

Now thinking about it, I work a 9-5 job, and I don't even have to work an 8hr day (depending on the project of course). Sometimes I think how great it would be to have more time for music, or do music for a living. And then I realize that people that actually do music for a living, have even less time working on their music!

Moreover, they kill themselves willingly, working absurd hours. No one should ever willingly accept a job like that. Ever! It's a slow suicide. You want to drop dead at 50? 

Just walk away from it. It's not worth it. You trade your life time and health for peanuts, and at the end the movie is stupid and it's not even your music that's being heard. Just walk away, let the bloody industry collapse. In the long run, it will create shortage of people and boost wages of media workers, and increase time given to complete, so more relaxed working conditions, so win win, if you walk away


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## ka00 (Jan 30, 2021)

this guy sums things up pretty simply...


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## MikeH (Jan 30, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> Things like this are eye opening. Exactly what keeps me away from "it's ugly bloody majesty the industry".
> 
> Now thinking about it, I work a 9-5 job, and I don't even have to work an 8hr day (depending on the project of course). Sometimes I think how great it would be to have more time for music, or do music for a living. And then I realize that people that actually do music for a living, have even less time working on their music!
> 
> ...



Yeah it does take over your life. Marco Beltrami related a story in the video below that, even after years of writing music professionally, I was just like...wow. He was the best man at his brother’s wedding in East Long Island in the middle of wine country. Suddenly four black SUV’s from New York appear out of nowhere and said, “You need to come back with us, we’re in the middle of a picture and we’re stuck. We need a score.” So he left the wedding went back with them to NY. 

You can hear it from 00:49-00:53.


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## MauroPantin (Jan 30, 2021)

MikeH said:


> Yeah it does take over your life. Marco Beltrami related a story in the video below that, even after years of writing music professionally, I was just like...wow. He was the best man at his brother’s wedding in East Long Island in the middle of wine country. Suddenly four black SUV’s from New York appear out of nowhere and said, “You need to come back with us, we’re in the middle of a picture and we’re stuck. We need a score.” So he left the wedding went back with them to NY.


I find it fascinating that they react to it by saying how cool and "badass" it was. More power to him if he enjoys that, but I would be livid and ashamed if someone I am acquanted with interrupted a loved one's wedding to ask me to work


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## dcoscina (Jan 30, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> Things like this are eye opening. Exactly what keeps me away from "it's ugly bloody majesty the industry".
> 
> Now thinking about it, I work a 9-5 job, and I don't even have to work an 8hr day (depending on the project of course). Sometimes I think how great it would be to have more time for music, or do music for a living. And then I realize that people that actually do music for a living, have even less time working on their music!
> 
> ...


Charles Ives worked an insurance job that he ran by day so he could write the music he wanted to at night. Though this was motivated by his obligation to provide for his wife and children, he also was a rugged individualist who never received much support of his music during his lifetime. A few championed his work, like Carl Ruggles and after, Benny Herrmann. In one of his last interviews before he died, my composition prof James Tenney said something sobering and sad about Ives- that he stopped working on music relatively early in his life. The demands of the day job took their toll on him. Tenney questioned what masterpieces were locked away in Ives' imagination that he took to his grave. 

So, there is an inverse romanticized notion about writing the music you want by supporting yourself or your family with a non-related day job. There is no utopia.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 30, 2021)

This is a great topic, but it's getting derailed, so I've spun off a number of posts into a new Drama Zone Thread.


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## William The Concurer (Jan 30, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Charles Ives worked an insurance job that he ran by day so he could write the music he wanted to at night. Though this was motivated by his obligation to provide for his wife and children, he also was a rugged individualist


"Take your music like a man..." I believe is what he shouted to the hecklers at one of his concerts, who didn't get the music. Huge fan of his work, highly influential.


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## SamC (Feb 7, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Conrad Pope gave a terrific interview with ScoreCast years ago. I listen to it almost every month. It shed a lot of light on the system. However, I learned that some of his candid statements hurt his career after. Now he only posts super positive things about collaborators he’s worked with (Menk where it’s clear he and the jazz arranger wrote most of that score as it sounds nothing like Reznor/Ross’ previous body of work- but even privately he says nothing but glowing things)
> 
> Shame. I enjoyed his honesty about the system down there. He’s also an amazingly skilled and articulate composer/orchestrator/educator. There are more composers than i can count that owe him a BIG time.
> 
> you have to wonder why giants like Don Davis, Elliot Goldenthal (Save for his work with partner Julie Taymor) and Bruce Broughton walked from film scoring. Their compositional voices are dearly missed


Couldn’t agree more. Those are the names I really look up to in this business. Not just for what they’ve clearly done for other composers work, but their own scores are magnificent and inspiring.

Conrad Popes score for the documentary Tim’s Vermeer is ridiculously good. Would absolutely kill to work alongside them one day.

They are dudes where the films always come first and they’re not some weird giant brand. Someone else who comes to mind is Joel Mcneely. What a genius that guy is!


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## jonathanparham (Feb 7, 2021)

SamC said:


> They are dudes where the films always come first and they’re not some weird giant brand. Someone else who comes to mind is Joel Mcneely. What a genius that guy is!


"My first feature was so low budget I put $10,000 of my own money (which I definitely didn’t have to spare) into the score to get a bigger orchestra so I would be able to give the film what it needed. And it quickly led to other things." - Joel McNeely

I believe he still does a lot by hand and has his assistants mock it up. A lot of impressive writing.


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## SamC (Feb 7, 2021)

jonathanparham said:


> "My first feature was so low budget I put $10,000 of my own money (which I definitely didn’t have to spare) into the score to get a bigger orchestra so I would be able to give the film what it needed. And it quickly led to other things." - Joel McNeely
> 
> I believe he still does a lot by hand and has his assistants mock it up. A lot of impressive writing.


Great story and one of the reasons he is such a big inspiration for me.

I did see a recent interview with him and it didn’t seem like he really had a team during the writing and mock-up stage. In fact, he would spend so much time on mock-ups that Seth Macfarlane told him “I know what you can do, I hired you and trust you. Forget these mock-ups and just focus on composing.”

So he basically does what John Williams does - Write it and go straight to the scoring stage. That’s trust!

His work for Disney is very beautiful stuff.


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## JonS (Feb 7, 2021)

MauroPantin said:


> I find it fascinating that they react to it by saying how cool and "badass" it was. More power to him if he enjoys that, but I would be livid and ashamed if someone I am acquanted with interrupted a loved one's wedding to ask me to work


I once had a Hollywood producer send two of his minions to my home to wake me up at 3:30am when I was sound asleep just to write an original jingle for a commercial that never even got released and paid me nothing to do this. I am sure there are honorable people in Hollywood, but he is not one of them and is disgusting to work with, so were his two loser associate producers.


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## davidson (Feb 7, 2021)

JonS said:


> I once had a Hollywood producer send two of his minions to my home to wake me up at 3:30am when I was sound asleep just to write an original jingle for a commercial that never even got released and paid me nothing to do this. I am sure there are honorable people in Hollywood, but he is not one of them and is disgusting to work with, so were his two loser associate producers.


That's crazy. Why did you do it?


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## JonS (Feb 7, 2021)

davidson said:


> That's crazy. Why did you do it?


It was very early in my career so I didn't understand how dishonorable producers could behave. I have always been a very honorable, kind and magnanimous person my entire life, but no matter how noble one behaves that has nothing to do with affecting the lack of character in others. 

Unfortunately, this producer and his production company promised to pay me, but they never did. I was trying to build a long term business relationship with an A-list producer. And, though I worked on several major studio productions for him after this event he was one of those "I only overpay top A-list talent with A-list agents because I have no choice or they won't work on my projects" kind of people and "I try to screw over everyone else for next to nothing" types of producer. When one is first starting out being a passionate composer is the easy part whereas having to represent yourself in a negotiation with a Hollywood producer or studio exec is very difficult, especially if you don't know the going rates studios are used to paying and composers are used to getting. This producer told me he refused to negotiate with me if I got an entertainment attorney to rep me, which made things very problematic. Back in the '90s, there was not the kind of information out there for new composers the way there is today. Even when I joined the Society of Composers and Lyricists and AFM I was not able to attain that kind of info to help understand what "reasonable fees" should be in each situation. If there was a composers union, this scumbag producer would have never been able to do this to anyone. There is a long line of people who this producer has taken advantage of, it's not just composers either but writers and actors too and many other types in the biz. He and his associate producers are still underpaying anyone they can who doesn't have major representation. The last few times he wanted to hire me I refused to work for him, I was tired of having to negotiate with him when his starting offer was some preposterous lowball number and being grossly underpaid. This was a much more complex situation, as one of his associate producers, who I had known since he was in film school, was pretending to be one of my best friends for decades and kept lying to me about how much this producer would pay me. More than 20 years later this "so called best friend" confessed to me out of no where that they could have paid me 5-25 times more than they did way back when on every project I composed for. I refused to speak to him ever again after I told him what a scumbag he is.

Making it as a film and tv composer typically requires one powerful A-list director or producer to want to hire you over and over again. But what I did not understand at the time was that paying your dues never ends for dishonorable producers, and more importantly, "paying your dues" should really never have to take place to begin with. Even if you don't have a lot of experience or credits in this biz, no composer should ever work for less than the kind of basic reasonable fees Hollywood is used to paying. No one is getting top rates until you have major credits, but that should not stop anyone from getting reasonable creative fees when you get the gig. What also did not help was that I was always reaching out to top agents and managers of film and tv composers to see if they would either want to rep me or negotiate a one-off deal and no one was welcoming at all. I could not get anyone including other composers to mentor me or offer advice on how to deal with negotiations either. 

I am always pleasantly astonished how helpful so many people are in this forum, but for the longest time no one in the biz would ever offer me any help or advice no matter how good of a person I am.


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## jonathanparham (Feb 8, 2021)

SamC said:


> Great story and one of the reasons he is such a big inspiration for me.
> 
> I did see a recent interview with him and it didn’t seem like he really had a team during the writing and mock-up stage. In fact, he would spend so much time on mock-ups that Seth Macfarlane told him “I know what you can do, I hired you and trust you. Forget these mock-ups and just focus on composing.”
> 
> ...


oh thanks for correcting me. I guess the interview I saw was incorrect. I thought I heard the person say they 'assisted' in his mock-ups.

But to your point, I think you're correct about trust. I guess I'm trying to learn the power of the decision-maker and the studio. Also, McFarlane isn't too shabby a musician himself. He'll post on his social networks his singing and playing. So he should know what to look for. But yes straight to the scoring stage is powerful in this day and age.


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## dcoscina (Feb 8, 2021)

William The Concurer said:


> "Take your music like a man..." I believe is what he shouted to the hecklers at one of his concerts, who didn't get the music. Huge fan of his work, highly influential.


It was actually at a concert featuring the work of Carl Ruggles. At one point he shouted ""You goddamn sissy... when you hear strong masculine music like this, get up and use your ears like a man!"


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## X-Bassist (Feb 8, 2021)

MikeH said:


> Yeah it does take over your life. Marco Beltrami related a story in the video below that, even after years of writing music professionally, I was just like...wow. He was the best man at his brother’s wedding in East Long Island in the middle of wine country. Suddenly four black SUV’s from New York appear out of nowhere and said, “You need to come back with us, we’re in the middle of a picture and we’re stuck. We need a score.” So he left the wedding went back with them to NY.
> 
> You can hear it from 00:49-00:53.



Thanks for this. There is a truth in here people may not notice but seems universal. Every composer and mixer I’ve worked with are worried about passing on any job, because they are sure their sub will take over the job and they will never be called again. Even Randy Thom, after many Oscars, worries about being replaced and never getting called again.

It’s an artist plague, this worry. Our uncertainty about our work and our envy of other people’s work bring us to a place where we feel like frauds. Even Robert Dinero and Anthony Hopkins both admitted to being worried about “being found out that I’m a fraud”. They wait for the other shoe to drop. There was a composer roundtable with Hans Zimmer and Danny Elfman where they stated the same thing. Creative people have always felt unworthy, that is because they know there is some providence (or what people see as luck) involved. No one is free from this, since most that feel they deserve it become prideful and soon are let go. There is always another good artist out there willing to work for 20% less.

But the truth is they need us. Business men in artistic businesses need good artistic people. And there are so many bad artists out there, that just using a few make business people nervous and the idea of blowing a million dollar + project keeps them up at night. Every producer longs for reliability and to be a part of some great project, locking in the artists they know they can trust is paramount. Everytime they hire someone new they know they are starting over, since, like dating, it takes many months for someone to prove themselves, and years to be considered a good artist yet reliable (many, many, are not... promising excellence at lightning fast speeds, then delivering crap three days late).

If you are reliable, hardworking, and care about making good art, then you may get the providence (or luck) to see if you can enjoy the process of filmmaking, which most people are not cut out for. I enjoy sitting in a dark studio for long hours to make the illusion of a beautiful, coherent film soundtrack a reality. That’s why I do it. Sometimes I make good money, sometimes I don’t, but the upside is the less money there is the less I think about the pay and the more I focus on the work. To me it’s not worth doing unless I do my best, so I always do. I’m always pushing myself harder than any producer is, so whatever I’ve agreed to is fine (I do have a minimum) and I can focus on what the film needs and have fun doing it.

Do films or music or art because you love doing it. If it pays the bills great, if not, don’t worry, just don’t kill yourself and insist “I realize you don’t have a big budget, so I’ll need more time to be able to take other work while I work on this nights”. I’ve never had a producer get mad about the time I take when I have this conversation right up front. You may have to remind them again while your working on it (they will still push you to get it done asap), but stick to your guns and you’ll have extra time to tweak and hone your ideas- something a major Hollywood composer would kill for! So many film mixes have tired composers saying “If I just had an extra day or two!”. Count your blessings that you don’t have their schedule. 😄


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## AlexRuger (Feb 8, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Conrad Pope gave a terrific interview with ScoreCast years ago. I listen to it almost every month. It shed a lot of light on the system. However, I learned that some of his candid statements hurt his career after. Now he only posts super positive things about collaborators he’s worked with (Menk where it’s clear he and the jazz arranger wrote most of that score as it sounds nothing like Reznor/Ross’ previous body of work- but even privately he says nothing but glowing things)
> 
> Shame. I enjoyed his honesty about the system down there. He’s also an amazingly skilled and articulate composer/orchestrator/educator. There are more composers than i can count that owe him a BIG time.
> 
> you have to wonder why giants like Don Davis, Elliot Goldenthal (Save for his work with partner Julie Taymor) and Bruce Broughton walked from film scoring. Their compositional voices are dearly missed


Anyone have a copy of that podcast episode? It doesn't seem to play on their website and it (along with a ton of other episodes) aren't on Apple Podcasts.


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## dcoscina (Feb 8, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> Anyone have a copy of that podcast episode? It doesn't seem to play on their website and it (along with a ton of other episodes) aren't on Apple Podcasts.


sorry I only have it on an old ipod. I changed computers since then so I don't have the original file. 
my guess is if it's taken down, it was at Conrad's request and it shouldn't be circulating any longer anyhow.


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## Kent (Feb 8, 2021)

@AlexRuger @dcoscina it looks like it's still publicly hosted on their site, it's just that Flash is no more so the player is broken:


here you go


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## marclawsonmusic (Feb 8, 2021)

kmaster said:


> @AlexRuger @dcoscina it looks like it's still publicly hosted on their site, it's just that Flash is no more so the player is broken:
> 
> 
> here you go


Nice bit of sleuthing there! Downloaded before someone takes it down.


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## dcoscina (Feb 10, 2021)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Nice bit of sleuthing there! Downloaded before someone takes it down.


Me too! It's nice to be able to listen on my computer now.


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## dcoscina (Feb 10, 2021)

Everyone should check this out.. It's not just Kraemer who has issues with the current Hollywood system. Shire, Beltrami, Danna, the list goes on....


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## SamC (Feb 15, 2021)

kmaster said:


> @AlexRuger @dcoscina it looks like it's still publicly hosted on their site, it's just that Flash is no more so the player is broken:
> 
> 
> here you go


Cool, thanks!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 15, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Everyone should check this out.. It's not just Kraemer who has issues with the current Hollywood system. Shire, Beltrami, Danna, the list goes on....



It’s only for Kindle, it seems.


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## dcoscina (Feb 15, 2021)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> It’s only for Kindle, it seems.


Yes that’s true


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## givemenoughrope (Feb 15, 2021)

kmaster said:


> @AlexRuger @dcoscina it looks like it's still publicly hosted on their site, it's just that Flash is no more so the player is broken:
> 
> 
> here you go


Is this the interview where he says something along the lines of "making something ppl need is fine but eventually they won't need it anymore, make something ppl want and you'll always be in demand" etc...?


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## SamC (Feb 17, 2021)

kmaster said:


> @AlexRuger @dcoscina it looks like it's still publicly hosted on their site, it's just that Flash is no more so the player is broken:
> 
> 
> here you go


Gotta say, this interview was all that I expected and more. Extremely valuable and insightful.


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> This is a sad truth for everyone trying to make it in show business - it is virtually impossible for people who are neither born into money or born into the business.


I have thought about this for quite some time now. Man, I hate that money (the lack of it) depresses me so much.

But hey, we can never give up now can we!


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## dcoscina (Feb 17, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> I have thought about this for quite some time now. Man, I hate that money (the lack of it) depresses me so much.
> 
> But hey, we can never give up now can we!


I’ve moved to concert hall writing for the most part. Much more rewarding personally.


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> I’ve moved to concert hall writing for the most part. Much more rewarding personally.


Good for you man! You have to do what you love! I could never do that. I love film and tv too much and wanna be in that world.


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## dcoscina (Feb 17, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> Good for you man! You have to do what you love! I could never do that. I love film and tv too much and wanna be in that world.


The kind of music I listen to and enjoy writing is not what is commercially viable in today's market. And I'm too old and cranky to adopt the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" ideology.


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## dcoscina (Feb 17, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> Good for you man! You have to do what you love! I could never do that. I love film and tv too much and wanna be in that world.


BTW- it is a ton of work prepping scores for orchestras... Thankfully Sibelius makes it fairly painless.


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> BTW- it is a ton of work prepping scores for orchestras... Thankfully Sibelius makes it fairly painless.


I know. That’s why on the last feature I worked on, the two composers (I was an assistant and additional writer) hired a professional orchestrator. Why do a half arsed job, especially against the clock, when you can hire someone that is infinitely better at something than yourself?


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2021)

A lot of the stuff Joe Kraemer has said are things I completely agree with but the one thing that is irritating me is this...


dcoscina said:


> It is a cutthroat community of people who are in the business to get rich and famous. Writing music of any quality is secondary to that ultimate goal


Cut throat? Of course. The music business is horrendous. Long Plastic Hallway etc. But to say that everyone gets into film composing, is in it for money?

I think that’s such bullshit. How about some of these reasons?

Because they LOVE writing music?
They are huge fans of film and TV?
They love being apart of a story telling process?
They love working with Directors, Producers, writers and sharing and contributing to their vision?
They love the rush of attempting something so ambitious it seems impossible?

There are tons of reasons why but to say they are in it just for money and fame (fame!!!! 😂 That’s the funniest thing of all! Fame?! Not the best route to go if you want fame is it).

Anyway, yeah, money is so important and without it nothing happens but to be the only goal for a film composer? Sorry but I think that’s bullshit. Good news is, I’m a nobody so who cares what I think 😂


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## JohnG (Feb 17, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> I’m a nobody so who cares what I think


Sometimes I worry the world is more than ever ranking the worth of people, and their opinions, by how much money they have. How much did Gandhi have, or MLK, or Mohammed or Jesus or the Buddha?

For that matter, how much did Mozart or Beethoven have? 

I tell my kids not to buy into the world's values; they are mostly pretty terrible.

Of course you are right on your main point: it is goofy to claim that the only reason people try to do media music is for money. 

*So Much Easier*

There are soooo many more predictable ways to pile up money than music. How many average people have made millions in real estate? Finance? You only need arithmetic for those and there are scads of those folk.

For someone willing to put the time in to learn specialised skills, IT is at least arguably more sure-fire than music. Not so sure about the millions-for-all, but a reasonable life.

Everything has its risks, but IDK any career more chancy than music except acting / performing, and the reason I see those as more risky is that actors can only fight their age and appearance so much. If you are 60, you're not going to look 20, no matter what your friends say. 

I guess I think there's only one reason to write music: because you just want to.


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## robgb (Feb 17, 2021)

Is any industry not steeped in drama? Dentistry maybe?


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## CT (Feb 17, 2021)

robgb said:


> Is any industry not steeped in drama? Dentistry maybe?


You anti-dentite bastard.


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## FinGael (Feb 17, 2021)

robgb said:


> Is any industry not steeped in drama? Dentistry maybe?


Have you not heard the story about a blue planet, where a lot of things happened, and life evolved - until something called humans appeared and f*cked everything up?


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## tebling (Feb 17, 2021)

When this topic invariably cycles in like the tide, I'm always reminded of the post a certain "Thomas_J" made on this very forum in 2014:



> Film music and directors: one word: prison. To me and in my somewhat limited experience with films it simply is not enjoyable. It is work for hire, schedules, pressure, egos, very little creative freedom and in the end if you're lucky you'll hear a little bit of your work underneath the sound effects and dialog. Most likely everything is forgotten come Tuesday.


Mr. Bergersen has all the requirements we've discussed here - ridiculously talented, hardworking, prolific, technically capable, and no doubt "lucky" as well. To have the luxury of making a name for yourself in media and intentionally declining the feature film bait is certainly beyond the reach of most of us, but he's living proof that there's another path.

He comes across a bit cynical in this post, but if you follow his work and interviews, he also seems genuinely happy. Perhaps that's because it's easier to live with the familiar pressure of your own ambitions (even if they're very high) than the stress that comes with circumstances and people outside your control.


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## jonathanparham (Feb 17, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> The kind of music I listen to and enjoy writing is not what is commercially viable in today's market. And I'm too old and cranky to adopt the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" ideology.


welp, my wife's an academic and she hired some digital consultant. He's finding a market for professors online. I betcha, and I like your stuff, there's an audience for it online.


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## dcoscina (Feb 17, 2021)

jonathanparham said:


> welp, my wife's an academic and she hired some digital consultant. He's finding a market for professors online. I betcha, and I like your stuff, there's an audience for it online.


Thanks Jon.


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## dcoscina (Feb 17, 2021)

robgb said:


> Is any industry not steeped in drama? Dentistry maybe?


Higher suicide rate of any profession.


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## JonS (Feb 17, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Sometimes I worry the world is more than ever ranking the worth of people, and their opinions, by how much money they have. How much did Gandhi have, or MLK, or Mohammed or Jesus or the Buddha?
> 
> For that matter, how much did Mozart or Beethoven have?
> 
> ...


Right on, John, well said as always!!


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Sometimes I worry the world is more than ever ranking the worth of people, and their opinions, by how much money they have. How much did Gandhi have, or MLK, or Mohammed or Jesus or the Buddha?


I wasn’t really talking about money. Especially as a measure of someone’s worth. More so that I’m not an a list film composer and I was commenting and giving my opinion on what one has said so I’m not really sure why my opinion would mean anything in this context hence the “I’m a nobody” comment. Still, it is a public forum and without us filling it with conversation it would be a truly pointless place indeed.



JohnG said:


> I guess I think there's only one reason to write music: because you just want to.


Exactly.


Anyway, I bet Ghandi secretly had a shit load of money. Probably moonlighted as a burglar and kept it all in his mattress. 😂


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## iaink (Feb 17, 2021)

dcoscina said:


> Higher suicide rate of any profession.


Not sure if that is a joke, but I find that somewhat impossible.

In any event...



dcoscina said:


> Compiled From his Twitter post:
> 
> This is just a reality check for people who dream of scoring movies in Hollywood: It is a cutthroat community of people who are in the business to get rich and famous. Writing music of any quality is secondary to that ultimate goal ) And keep in mind, being an artist is not a civil right - no one owes me anything, even the ex-friend who swindled me.


Maybe Joe is talking about Hollywood in general here, or the circles of people around music production?

It's hard to think of too many a-list composers who are or were very obviously cutthroat and avaricious.

It seems like the more common factors are a love of the art, exceptional work ethic, and exceptional people chops. That last one being far more important than any other factor.


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## JonS (Feb 17, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> I wasn’t really talking about money. Especially as a measure of someone’s worth. More so that I’m not an a list film composer and I was commenting and giving my opinion on what one has said so I’m not really sure why my opinion would mean anything in this context hence the “I’m a nobody” comment. Still, it is a public forum and without us filling it with conversation it would be a truly pointless place indeed.
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> ...


When I am composing on a project, it's never about the money as my heart and passion rule the day!!


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## jononotbono (Feb 17, 2021)

iaink said:


> It's hard to think of too many a-list composers who are or were very obviously cutthroat


And that’s exactly why the best hide in plain sight 😂


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## AlexRuger (Feb 18, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> A lot of the stuff Joe Kraemer has said are things I completely agree with but the one thing that is irritating me is this...
> 
> Cut throat? Of course. The music business is horrendous. Long Plastic Hallway etc. But to say that everyone gets into film composing, is in it for money?
> 
> ...


Nah, sorry man. In my experience, in LA, Joe is absolutely right. It’s a sad and difficult thing to accept and is one of the many disillusionments I’ve had to come to terms with, but everything Joe says is 100% correct.

That said, like most things, it’s complicated. It’s not like everyone starts out that way. Most start with your attitude. The existing system out here grinds peoples’ enthusiasm and passion down to a nub, and eventually those who make it have more or less universally realized that you have to play the game, talk the talk (as evidenced by the fact that they’ve made it). The cynicism out here is absolutely overwhelming at times. The lucky ones hold onto a part of the spark that got them into it, and many times it’s a matter of losing it and finding it again (I definitely went through that).

Edit: one note to add on your comment about fame. Yeah, objectively this is a horrible field to go into if you want fame. Most people can’t name a single film composer, and even if they can (probably HZ or JW), they likely won’t understand that we’re scoring to picture — most people seem to think that we’re just musicians writing music that the film is edited to.

It’s not fame. Perhaps a better word is “status.” In the LA reality distortion field, people whose names aren’t known within 20 miles of LA can seem like the biggest deal in the world to this town, and they certainly have the ego to go with it. It’s not world-wide fame by any degree, but within their bubble, it might as well be. If you can get your ass kissed everywhere you go, who cares if someone in middle America doesn’t know who you are? What matters is that it *feels* the same.

Yes, it’s stupid and petty, but if there’s anything that the last four years has taught me, it’s that there’s a lot of that going around.


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## SamC (Feb 18, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> Nah, sorry man. In my experience, in LA, Joe is absolutely right. It’s a sad and difficult thing to accept and is one of the many disillusionments I’ve had to come to terms with, but everything Joe says is 100% correct.
> 
> That said, like most things, it’s complicated. It’s not like everyone starts out that way. Most start with your attitude. The existing system out here grinds peoples’ enthusiasm and passion down to a nub, and eventually those who make it have more or less universally realized that you have to play the game, talk the talk (as evidenced by the fact that they’ve made it). The cynicism out here is absolutely overwhelming at times. The lucky ones hold onto a part of the spark that got them into it, and many times it’s a matter of losing it and finding it again (I definitely went through that).
> 
> ...


Really interesting. I wonder if this is way more of an LA-centric thing in general. I’m in London, and most of the people I encounter in this business don’t seem to have those qualities. Even people I would expect to. Although, the industry is smaller here and it feels more like a cottage industry. 

I’m happy to say that most people you meet along the way here are really drawn in by the work, not the money. Even the idea of ‘big money’ or ‘fame’ being synonymous with ‘composer’ is kinda funny. I can’t imagine a more painstaking way to become rich and famous.


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## AlexRuger (Feb 18, 2021)

SamC said:


> Really interesting. I wonder if this is way more of an LA-centric thing in general. I’m in London, and most of the people I encounter in this business don’t seem to have those qualities. Even people I would expect to. Although, the industry is smaller here and it feels more like a cottage industry.
> 
> I’m happy to say that most people you meet along the way here are really drawn in by the work, not the money. Even the idea of ‘big money’ or ‘fame’ being synonymous with ‘composer’ is kinda funny. I can’t imagine a more painstaking way to become rich and famous.


Totally. And don't get me wrong -- there are some amazing people here too. But LA definitely has more ego than London, no doubt about it. Partially it's the size of the industry, partially it's the English self-deprecating humor, which on the whole America sorely lacks. I mean, just look at the stereotypes of LA and London. Stereotypes are never totally true, but they're always rooted in truth, and in LA's case, the "vapid/image-driven/shallow/money-obsessed/egotistical" stereotype is...more true than many other stereotypes, I think. I've always found Bojack Horseman fucking hilarious for that reason, because it cuts through all of those stereotypes better than anything else. It's basically written for people who work and live in "the industry."

Hans has pointed this out before on the forum: usually, it's the people in the middle who are the worst. Those at the top are often (not always) very grateful, talented, clearly deserve where they are. Those are the bottom are hungry and humble. Those in the middle, as Hans said, if I remember correctly..."that's where the sharks swim." In my (hilariously more limited than his) experience, he's absolutely spot-on.


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## JohnG (Feb 18, 2021)

Inevitably, our opinions about the industry, about Los Angeles, London, etc. are coloured by our own personal, highly anecdotal (and thus narrow) experience. I've met guys at the middle who are extremely cynical and talk misery, but there are other guys who are less so.

I think we have to decide for ourselves what kind of people we want to be. Faithful / unfaithful, give to charity / hog it all, make a sincere effort at being kind / blow up everyone around us.

It's corny but personally I think laughter is infectious, and compassion is too. If you speak to players or engineers or the Pro Tools operator courteously, you set a tone for your whole session. 

Maybe if you act like a human, they'll even be glad to hear you're coming back to the studio?

*Tough*

Mind you, if this thread does one good thing, it's to remind everyone how mercilessly tough this industry is; no point in being unrealistic. So for some that might mean you cultivate a "Plan B," like making libraries or becoming some kind of Youtube personality, by teaching or something else.

For me though, I just can't stay away from music. It's a crazy choice and I know it can ruin your health and just about everything else if you let it, but I just like it and have never found anything else that sustains my interest the same way.


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## dcoscina (Feb 18, 2021)

@AlexRuger I think you are onto something with this. I've had many nice conversations with Teddy Shapiro and he strikes me as exceptionally grounded and kind. Always friendly, and immensely talented. He's an A-lister plus. The same goes for Mark Isham. Had a lengthy chat with him a few years back about Mahler, gear, and jazz (FSM interview). Gabriel Yared is also one of the nicest humans I've ever met and we traded emails for years. I could list others too. All very nice. Generous with their time and knowledge.

I dealt with a mid to lower-level personality once (I'm not naming names, so please do not PM because I am not telling) and they were rude, unprofessional, and condescending. It struck me at the time because I had nothing but amazing dealings with the A-list composers. Hell, even HZ was kind enough to reply to an FSM interview request a few years back. Given the magazine has done nothing but savage the guy, he could have told me to F*** myself, but he was very diplomatic and nice (I would like to point out that throughout this thread did I ever mention HZ in a disparaging manner... it was never about him).


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## AlexRuger (Feb 18, 2021)

@dcoscina for sure, all good points. However, I wouldn't be so quick to judge people based on how nice they are when you approach them for a chat. People can be great that way and a nightmare to work with/for. That's part of playing the game -- being nice and affable publicly-facing, but then you might turn around and treat the people who work for you like hot garbage. Not saying that's standard or common, but that too happens. 

The fact is, people can stand to make a _lot _of money in this industry, especially those exploiting (in the legal sense, not the negative sense) the works of the people writing the music. 

To be clear, I'm speaking in much more broad terms than just composers. I'm talking the whole system. Executives, agents, producers, managers...the whole shebang. And where there's money, there's politics, status, ego...it's not just music, not just media. It's just human nature. We're all insecure babies trying to convince ourselves of some semblance of greatness before we die, and unfortunately that can bring out a whole bunch o' bullshit. Shrug.


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## jononotbono (Feb 18, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> usually, it's the people in the middle who are the worst. Those at the top are often (not always) very grateful, talented, clearly deserve where they are. Those are the bottom are hungry and humble. Those in the middle, as Hans said, if I remember correctly..."that's where the sharks swim." In my (hilariously more limited than his) experience, he's absolutely spot-on.


And yet all I said was it is bullshit for someone to say EVERYONE is in it for the money and fame. I said that because it is bullshit. Not everyone is in it for money and fame. Unless all “those at the top who are often very grateful, talented, clearly deserve where they are” doing it just for money and fame too. Is Hans in it just for money and fame? Is John Powell in it for money and fame? How about Ramin Djawadi, Thomas Newman or Alexander Desplat? Sorry man, but I think it’s nonsense. Wouldn’t be surprised if the composers I just listed would be offended by even suggesting they were in it for money and fame. And yeah, definitely complicated as you have said. 

I appreciate you chiming in Alex as you have a wealth of experience compared to me but I just don’t agree with that aspect of what Joe said. You can’t just tarnish everyone with the same brush. If he said “the industry is full of disgusting fucking sharks and you find them all swimming everywhere but you especially find them in the middle of the business, feeding off the desperate and hungry whilst simultaneously circling round the gatekeepers feet desperately felching the teets of any a listers hoping to be let into their kingdoms” I wouldn't disagree in the slightest 😂. But he didn’t say that. He said everyone is in it for money and fame.

This is so true...


AlexRuger said:


> However, I wouldn't be so quick to judge people based on how nice they are when you approach them for a chat. People can be great that way and a nightmare to work with/for. That's part of playing the game -- being nice and affable publicly-facing, but then you might turn around and treat the people who work for you like hot garbage.


Anyway, I pretty much agree with everything you have said. I just think it’s stupid to tarnish people with the same brush.

Oh, and cynicism. And if anyone needs a lesson in cynicism, I could probably make a good living if there was a way to charge for such lessons. Needless to say, unless you personally know me, I do a very good job hiding that stuff because people get so upset by everything these days. And I’m English, so I can’t help it. 😂

Ps Wasn’t there a VIC post recently saying the quality of posts have declined round these parts recently? Well, no need for a pat on the back but good job people! Good job! 😂


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## AlexRuger (Feb 18, 2021)

I think it's pretty self-evident that Joe's use of the word "everyone" is hyperbole for the sake of making a point.


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