# Berlin Studio - The Ultimate Reverb Test



## Leandro Gardini (Nov 12, 2022)

Samplicity has recently released Berlin Studio, and I've been successfully testing it with many wet and dry samples. Everything I throw in it, with some fine adjustments, sounds good.
However, I decided to record a new lesson using my method of evaluating a reverb, which I call The Ultimate Reverb Test.


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## wunderflo (Nov 12, 2022)

thanks for the test. Sounds really good and you nicely matched the tones. However, for the sake of a direct comparison, wouldn't it have made more sense to keep the flute positioned in the woodwinds section of the stage? This still confuses me a bit. Also, did you already experiment with the delay setting of the dry signal to "correct" the ERs recorded in the original close mic signal when increasing the distance between mic and source? I find this can make quite a difference, but it's difficult to find the sweet spot... otherwise you just create phasing issues (at least that's what it sounds like to me).


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## Noeticus (Nov 12, 2022)

How do you feel this compares to the Teldex IRs within Altiverb?



Impulse Responses - Teldex scoring stage


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 12, 2022)

wunderflo said:


> thanks for the test. Sounds really good and you nicely matched the tones. However, for the sake of a direct comparison, wouldn't it have made more sense to keep the flute positioned in the woodwinds section of the stage? This still confuses me a bit. Also, did you already experiment with the delay setting of the dry signal to "correct" the ERs recorded in the original close mic signal when increasing the distance between mic and source? I find this can make quite a difference, but it's difficult to find the sweet spot... otherwise you just create phasing issues (at least that's what it sounds like to me).


It makes sense to use the woodwind IR, and I suppose it's not hard to create another preset perfectly matching the surround by using it. But I drifted to the surround positioning because I was trying to match the surround mics. With all those mic options, you may get the same result with different settings.
Regarding the delay, I didn't touch it because I guess it's not working yet. The software is on version 1.0, and there are some bugs to fix. I could have dealt with the EQ too, but it's not working either.
I think Peter needed more beta testing before releasing it, but the way it is now already impresses me.
I wasn't expecting it to come so close to the real thing. He nailed it!!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 12, 2022)

Noeticus said:


> How do you feel this compares to the Teldex IRs within Altiverb?
> 
> 
> 
> Impulse Responses - Teldex scoring stage


Altiverb is amazing, and it would be great to compare them fairly.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Nov 13, 2022)

Would be very cool to hear some comparisons against other reverbs here. Cinematic Rooms, Seventh Heaven, Spaces, Altiverb. As I think Beat Kaufmann was saying recently here, I'm not sure how much real difference in a mix all these new reverbs make.


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 13, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Would be very cool to hear some comparisons against other reverbs here. Cinematic Rooms, Seventh Heaven, Spaces, Altiverb. As I think Beat Kaufmann was saying recently here, I'm not sure how much real difference in a mix all these new reverbs make.


A good reverb is more than a beautiful ambiance. Most reverbs cannot provide depth without washing the instrument in a long tail.
The ones you mentioned are top-notch quality products, and if they serve you well, you don't need more. However, like most, I'm always improving my template, and matching libraries can be a painstaking process sometimes. If the tools you currently have don't render the desired result, you must find ways to solve the problem. One way is to explore further the features and combinations of available tools, and the other is to invest in a new tool that will make your life easier.


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## Loerpert (Nov 14, 2022)

Did a comparison with Seventh Heaven.

I tried to mimic the Teldex sound as much as I could with SH. I posted a screenshot of the settings I used for each.

The instrument is Tingklik from Soniccouture.
I should also mention that Berlin Studio has much more options when it comes to instrument placement. The stage placement sounds very realistic and changing the mic positions can make a big difference as well.


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## dyvoid (Nov 14, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> Did a comparison with Seventh Heaven.
> 
> I tried to mimic the Teldex sound as much as I could with SH. I posted a screenshot of the settings I used for each.
> 
> ...


Sounds pretty good! Looks like your screenshots are broken though. I'd love to know what settings you used in Seventh Heaven to achieve this.


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## Loerpert (Nov 14, 2022)

dyvoid said:


> Sounds pretty good! Looks like your screenshots are broken though. I'd love to know what settings you used in Seventh Heaven to achieve this.


I'm not at my PC currently, but it's preset "Studio A" with a bit longer tail.


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 14, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> Did a comparison with Seventh Heaven.
> 
> I tried to mimic the Teldex sound as much as I could with SH. I posted a screenshot of the settings I used for each.
> 
> ...


They both sound good, but Berlin Studio has more depth.


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## Dylanguitar (Nov 14, 2022)

Would also like to hear a comparison between the Teldex IR found in Altiverb and Berlin Studio. 
I know Berlin Studio has placement on the stage, but Altiverb has the ability to shorten the tail if you want. I just wonder how much better it actually is before considering shelling out the $.


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## tabulius (Nov 14, 2022)

Dylanguitar said:


> Would also like to hear a comparison between the Teldex IR found in Altiverb and Berlin Studio.
> I know Berlin Studio has placement on the stage, but Altiverb has the ability to shorten the tail if you want. I just wonder how much better it actually is before considering shelling out the $.


Berlin Studio can also shorten the tail.


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## Dylanguitar (Nov 14, 2022)

tabulius said:


> Berlin Studio can also shorten the tail.


I was going off of this post. Is this something that's been added since this statement, or am I just completely misunderstanding what's being said here?


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## shapeshifter00 (Nov 15, 2022)

Is it worth picking this up if I am mainly invested in SF libraries? I have a few OT a la carte samples and some drier like AI libraries that it can be useful for.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 15, 2022)

shapeshifter00 said:


> Is it worth picking this up if I am mainly invested in SF libraries? I have a few OT a la carte samples and some drier like AI libraries that it can be useful for.


If the close mics of your SF library are dry enough you could put all your samples in BS i suppose. If that's what you want maybe somebody can post some example to see how BS handle SF samples?
edited: I'd be curious to hear BS with SCS close mic myself.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 16, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> Did a comparison with Seventh Heaven.
> 
> I tried to mimic the Teldex sound as much as I could with SH. I posted a screenshot of the settings I used for each.
> 
> ...


Seventh Heaven use sampled presets from the Bricasti M7 hardware reverb. My other plugin, Gemini BM7 is similar.

Berlin Studio uses impulse responses from a real space - not a hardware reverb. Apples and oranges?

Of course ultimately what you prefer sonically is your best reverb, no matter how it is made.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 16, 2022)

Dylanguitar said:


> Would also like to hear a comparison between the Teldex IR found in Altiverb and Berlin Studio.
> I know Berlin Studio has placement on the stage, but Altiverb has the ability to shorten the tail if you want. I just wonder how much better it actually is before considering shelling out the $.


Berlin Studio allows you to change the tail length of the three microphone channels independently. 
50 - 200%. So a short Decca tail and a long AB-Pair tail for instance.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 16, 2022)

Dylanguitar said:


> I was going off of this post. Is this something that's been added since this statement, or am I just completely misunderstanding what's being said here?


Panta rhei :-D

For my other plugin, the BM7 I wanted to make a very smooth stretching/shrinking of a convolving IR.
I was so pleased with it, that I decided to drop it into Berlin Studio as well. 

Now I like the amazing shrinking / growing Teldex hall :-D 

(there was also demand for this feature)


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## Flyo (Nov 16, 2022)

Hi, there will be an AAX update compatible soon?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 16, 2022)

Flyo said:


> Hi, there will be an AAX update compatible soon?


I can't give a timeline, because I have not done the integration with Avid software before, and I find everything about it a bit, ahem, can I say "old, outdated, not giving warm feelings"?

The next planned update for BST with the iLok integration is needed anyway for making a PT version. Hopefully before Christmas.


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## Dylanguitar (Nov 16, 2022)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> Panta rhei :-D
> 
> For my other plugin, the BM7 I wanted to make a very smooth stretching/shrinking of a convolving IR.
> I was so pleased with it, that I decided to drop it into Berlin Studio as well.
> ...


Amazing. Thanks for the response.


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## Hunter123 (Nov 16, 2022)

How is this on CPU and latency? Can I download a demo somewhere on the website?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 16, 2022)

Hunter123 said:


> How is this on CPU and latency? Can I download a demo somewhere on the website?


Zero latency, independent of the hosts buffer size.

Very light on CPU, for a triple True Stereo convolver. There has been serious R & D to get to this level of efficiency (currently not running at its max, multi threading is switched off), also because of potential applications in other fields.

Next update (expected around Christmas) will even be more efficient.

Trials will require iLok and that will be integrated in the coming month, so not before then.


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## xanderscores (Nov 17, 2022)

This all sounds tempting, even for someone who uses Berlin Series samples because routing them through a common reverb should mean you can rely on close/spot/tree mics only and save a lot of CPU (and ssd space) that otherwise would be needed for all those surround mic signals. Or is there a catch?

For me it would be also very interesting to use it with synchron instruments which to me don't sound very much "in the room". Would love to hear some synchron percussion samples routed through Berlin Studio.


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## Leandro Gardini (Nov 17, 2022)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> If the close mics of your SF library are dry enough you could put all your samples in BS i suppose. If that's what you want maybe somebody can post some example to see how BS handle SF samples?
> edited: I'd be curious to hear BS with SCS close mic myself.


I don't have OT strings, but I will be glad to run a test with CSC on Berlin Studio if someone provides a few short notes of the close mic of OT.


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## xanderscores (Nov 18, 2022)

I bought mine yesterday and tried it out for an hour or two with several instruments. To summarize my impression: It's amazing what it does to the signals. A few quick thoughts:

* It puts signals in a room. If you have samples that are not very "in the room", you can enhance this by using Berlin Studio. I wouldn't consider it to be a substitute for a dedicated reverb like Seventh Heaven or Cinematic Rooms.
* It smoothens transients to a degree that I didn't expect. You can throw in blaring trumpets, piercing piccolo, bells etc, it will all nicely be smoothened out. Very cool!
* What it doesn't do: It doesn't turn a close/spot mic signal into a tree mic signal. I tried it out with Synchron Brass instruments close mic only, it still sounded way too thin. Going in with Tree/main mics produced good results.
* I compared OT M. Ark samples spot mic only + Berlin Studio with the original spot+tree mix and it's actually quite close, but more muffled/muddied. To be fair, I didn't play around much with the EQ settings which Berlin Studio also has a lot of. I think you can edit the hell out of the signal with this, but I usually don't do EQing mic signals. I'm a composer after all. 
* What was interesting to me: While it sounds amazing with plate bells, with horns, with timpani, I wasn't so overwhelmed by what it does to (synchron) woodwinds. I think I heard some not so nice resonances. Might be EQ-able though.
* To finish off with a real game changer for me: The synchron percussion with close and main mics put through Berlin Studio had a lot of presence and sounded wonderful. The timpani was just amazing!
* Didn't have time to try it with CSS. I can imagine it does wonderful things to strings. Maybe someone else here can tell about that.

Hope this helps some way or the other. Have a great weekend!


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## AndyP (Nov 23, 2022)

This sounds very interesting to me. Worth a try I guess.


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## Markrs (Nov 23, 2022)

xanderscores said:


> I bought mine yesterday and tried it out for an hour or two with several instruments. To summarize my impression: It's amazing what it does to the signals. A few quick thoughts:
> 
> * It puts signals in a room. If you have samples that are not very "in the room", you can enhance this by using Berlin Studio. I wouldn't consider it to be a substitute for a dedicated reverb like Seventh Heaven or Cinematic Rooms.
> * It smoothens transients to a degree that I didn't expect. You can throw in blaring trumpets, piercing piccolo, bells etc, it will all nicely be smoothened out. Very cool!
> ...


Some great comments on Berlin Studio, which is really helpful as it is on my list, but I’m not sure it is for right now. I probably need to look into more as I would like to reduce down all the mics, that require storage and RAM, but it looks like this will only do this to a certain degree, which was expected.


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## Jett Hitt (Nov 23, 2022)

This is the best plugin I've bought in a long time, or it will be when it works properly. I wouldn't use it with actual Teldex samples, however. I get the idea of using it in place of additional mics, but why? Sine has mic merge.


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## Markrs (Nov 23, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I get the idea of using it in place of additional mics, but why? Sine has mic merge.


I wouldn't be using it with OT samples but other libraries that I want to place in Teldex.


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## Jett Hitt (Nov 23, 2022)

Markrs said:


> I wouldn't be using it with OT samples but other libraries that I want to place in Teldex.


For that it is perfect, provided that the sample isn't too ambient. In the best of all worlds, the sample needs to have a close mic. I didn't have much luck with the ones that didn't.


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## jon wayne (Nov 23, 2022)

I purchased, but not up and running yet. I have contacted Peter. Anybody else having crashing issues? I have tried (Monterey) with Cubase 12, Studio One and Logic. It says incompatible on all. Any suggestions?


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## portego (Nov 23, 2022)

jon wayne said:


> Any suggestions?


Have you tried the VST2 version? 

In FL Studio the VST2 fixed the major issues. Have incorporated it in some projects by now and no issues so far. Biggest one has around 15 instances of Berlin Studio. Looking forward for the panning update and especially the multithreading update in december.


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## jon wayne (Nov 23, 2022)

I'm confused. Both VST2 & 3 are recognized as 32 bit.


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## portego (Nov 23, 2022)

jon wayne said:


> Both VST2 & 3 are recognized as 32 bit.


That's weird... Mine are both 64bit...

VST2 = VST 2.4 (64bit - native)
VST3 = VST 3.7.2 (64bit - native)


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## jon wayne (Nov 23, 2022)

portego said:


> That's weird... Mine are both 64bit...
> 
> VST2 = VST 2.4 (64bit - native)
> VST3 = VST 3.7.2 (64bit - native)


I have vs 1.03. Is that what you have?


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## portego (Nov 23, 2022)

jon wayne said:


> I have vs 1.03. Is that what you have?


The installer was in the version 1.0.2 (mail: Update - 2022-11-18 Release information). The plugin itself is the version 1.0.5 (from the updated installer 1.0.2)


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## jon wayne (Nov 23, 2022)

Peter sent me an email with the download links. I wonder if it was an older one.


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## portego (Nov 23, 2022)

That's possible... As i remember it, this update broke the plugin for some DAWs. Would make sense that he crawled back with the version. But the next update should come soon as Peter stated in the other thread. Hold on 🫂


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 24, 2022)

xanderscores said:


> I bought mine yesterday and tried it out for an hour or two with several instruments. To summarize my impression: It's amazing what it does to the signals. A few quick thoughts:
> 
> * It puts signals in a room. If you have samples that are not very "in the room", you can enhance this by using Berlin Studio. I wouldn't consider it to be a substitute for a dedicated reverb like Seventh Heaven or Cinematic Rooms.
> * It smoothens transients to a degree that I didn't expect. You can throw in blaring trumpets, piercing piccolo, bells etc, it will all nicely be smoothened out. Very cool!
> ...


Resonance is an interesting word to describe what you heard. Algorithmic reverbs can inherently produce resonances, but convolution-based reverbs not (there is no feedback). So, it must be something in the input or output that "stands out" - I am really curious, any kind of audio example would be cool (here, or via PM / email).

Have you checked some of the extremely dry sounds I have used in demos on the site?
If you pull the Dry channel all the way down, I cannot imagine that anything can remain "thin" 
I also do not use EQ for those demos.

Cheers


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 24, 2022)

portego said:


> That's possible... As i remember it, this update broke the plugin for some DAWs. Would make sense that he crawled back with the version. But the next update should come soon as Peter stated in the other thread. Hold on 🫂


It seems to be fixed with a re-write of the EQ processing. 

But I wait for more results from a test group, before I rush out an update too soon


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 24, 2022)

jon wayne said:


> I'm confused. Both VST2 & 3 are recognized as 32 bit.


Completely impossible - that is very likely mentioned by a standard piece of text in a validator, not based on any inspection of the file(s).


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## brett (Nov 24, 2022)

With apologies to Peter, but can anyone comment on the difference between Berlin studio and cinematic rooms? Obviously one is emulating teldex specifically... I’m in a position where I can afford one of these fine reverbs this Black Friday and am on the fence.


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## xanderscores (Nov 25, 2022)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> Resonance is an interesting word to describe what you heard. Algorithmic reverbs can inherently produce resonances, but convolution-based reverbs not (there is no feedback). So, it must be something in the input or output that "stands out" - I am really curious, any kind of audio example would be cool (here, or via PM / email).
> 
> Have you checked some of the extremely dry sounds I have used in demos on the site?
> If you pull the Dry channel all the way down, I cannot imagine that anything can remain "thin"
> ...


Thank you for clarifying! I'm not a mixing engineer, so forgive my lack of vocabulary to describe accurately what I heard. And yes, I will definitely try out what you mentioned. You are right, I didn't take down the dry signal completely. Thanks & btw Congratulations, it's a great product!!


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 25, 2022)

brett said:


> With apologies to Peter, but can anyone comment on the difference between Berlin studio and cinematic rooms? Obviously one is emulating teldex specifically... I’m in a position where I can afford one of these fine reverbs this Black Friday and am on the fence.


I hope others will reply, I am of course very "partial" - but at least: they are based on fundamentally different techniques (algorithmic versus convolution). Of course the sound should determine what your favorite reverb will be.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 25, 2022)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> I hope others will reply, I am of course very "partial" - but at least: they are based on fundamentally different techniques (algorithmic versus convolution). Of course the sound should determine what your favorite reverb will be.


Apparently cinematic rooms does involve convolution technology somehow. I don't understand what it is and I'm not sure it was explained at all by the developer but it's intriguing.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 25, 2022)

I have a lot of respect for Matt's work. I met him once, he is also a very nice guy, so cool to see how LS took off after he started with the first Reverberate versions.

No idea who is responsible for the marketing and website texts, but, as a user and developer, I often find them puzzling, confusing or intriguing. Like giving hints on modulation in some plugins that don't have it. Anyway, my educated impression was that CR is an algo reverb. Maybe a mix, then?

I do know that I would love to hire marketing and web design specialists like LS do!

Respect!


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Nov 25, 2022)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> I have a lot of respect for Matt's work. I met him once, he is also a very nice guy, so cool to see how LS took off after he started with the first Reverberate versions.
> 
> No idea who is responsible for the marketing and website texts, but, as a user and developer, I often find them puzzling, confusing or intriguing. Like giving hints on modulation in some plugins that don't have it. Anyway, my educated impression was that CR is an algo reverb. Maybe a mix, then?
> 
> ...


I remember now he mentioned analyzing real rooms so i assume he samples those and tried to copy it? I don't know. But the guy who mentioned this here on VI-C mentioned the size of the download which indicated convolution. I just downloaded the windows installer and it's 132 mb and 150 mb for the pro version. It's not that big is it?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Nov 25, 2022)

My Bricasti simulation plugin has a download size of 570 Mb, that is how big convo packages can quickly become with a serious number of presets.

It is hard to judge on the installer size alone, though. The plugin binary files can for instance contain a lot of graphics. And on Mac they typically contain two executables, one for Intel, one for Silicon.

My plugin binaries are 47 Mb (for Windows 28 Mb) - the rest is convolution content.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 25, 2022)

brett said:


> With apologies to Peter, but can anyone comment on the difference between Berlin studio and cinematic rooms? Obviously one is emulating teldex specifically... I’m in a position where I can afford one of these fine reverbs this Black Friday and am on the fence.


They are nothing alike.

Do you like the sound of Teldex and want to easily be able to place dry instruments into it? Get Berlin Studio.

Do you need a clean, high quality general purpose reverb that simulates rooms/halls/chambers? Get Cinematic Rooms.


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## brett (Nov 25, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> They are nothing alike.
> 
> Do you like the sound of Teldex and want to easily be able to place dry instruments into it? Get Berlin Studio.
> 
> Do you need a clean, high quality general purpose reverb that simulates rooms/halls/chambers? Get Cinematic Rooms.


Thanks TP. I’m aware of the marketing blurbs! But one imagines CR is capable of placing dry instruments into a hall not too dissimilar to Teldex. How good is it at this role? Or is BS simply peerless when it comes to this sort of thing? Do you have both?


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## PickledPat (Nov 27, 2022)

Loerpert said:


> Did a comparison with Seventh Heaven.
> 
> I tried to mimic the Teldex sound as much as I could with SH. I posted a screenshot of the settings I used for each.
> 
> ...


thanks for uploading,. How small can you make the room? Is it flexible enough for say folk instruments for example or only suited to orchestral stuff? There's not much info out there on it, looking forward to demoing when available


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## jamieboo (Dec 2, 2022)

Anyone tried Berlin Studio with HOOPUS?


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## eric_w (Dec 9, 2022)

Any comparison to the good ol VSS2?


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## Russell Anderson (Dec 13, 2022)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> But the guy who mentioned this here on VI-C mentioned the size of the download which indicated convolution


That was all random speculation in that thread based on a single probably mis-delivered sentence fragment in a SoS article, and contrary to what Matt himself has explained. CRP is algo. Many types of plugins use convolution for many reasons; CRP is not generating its reverb directly using recorded impulse resonses, but phase correlated reflections and algorithmic diffusion, so it is not a convolution reverb.


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## drfonta (Dec 17, 2022)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> Panta rhei :-D
> 
> For my other plugin, the BM7 I wanted to make a very smooth stretching/shrinking of a convolving IR.
> I was so pleased with it, that I decided to drop it into Berlin Studio as well.
> ...


I'm seriously thinking of getting the BM7. Any more comments you can share about it? I'm interested in how it stacks up to the original obviously and just some useful info. Thanks!


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## RabornJohnson (Dec 19, 2022)

Do we know when a trial version might be available? I would like to download a trial version before purchasing if possible.


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## syrinx (Dec 31, 2022)

eric_w said:


> Any comparison to the good ol VSS2?


I could do that if I have the time! With my initial testing with BS vs VSS2+VSL's Convolution Reverb (with Teldex IR), I found that while VSS2 does a great job, I feel BS sounds better.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 31, 2022)

brett said:


> Thanks TP. I’m aware of the marketing blurbs! But one imagines CR is capable of placing dry instruments into a hall not too dissimilar to Teldex. How good is it at this role? Or is BS simply peerless when it comes to this sort of thing? Do you have both?


I have both. While CRP does a better job of making the dry signal and the reverb gel together vs sounding like a reverb slapped onto a dry instrument than most reverbs do, it does still have that effect to a degree depending on the source signal. 

Berlin Studio is a more convincing effect to my ears. The big contributor to this is having three mic perspectives and individual EQ Control per perspective.


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## Soundbed (Dec 31, 2022)

xanderscores said:


> What it doesn't do: It doesn't turn a close/spot mic signal into a tree mic signal. I tried it out with Synchron Brass instruments close mic only, it still sounded way too thin. Going in with Tree/main mics produced good results.



This comment surprised me. Can others comment? I guess I presumed BS could do exactly that; turn a close/spot mic into the sound of tree/main mics (at least—in addition to surrounds,etc.). Or, was this “solved” with the advice from @Peter Emanuel Roos ?



Trash Panda said:


> I have both. While CRP does a better job of making the dry signal and the reverb gel together vs sounding like a reverb slapped onto a dry instrument than most reverbs do, it does still have that effect to a degree depending on the source signal.
> 
> Berlin Studio is a more convincing effect to my ears. The big contributor to this is having three mic perspectives and individual EQ Control per perspective.


Do you use BS with IB and IW? Do you use the the Studio or … I seem to recall a super dry anechoic type signal well.(?)


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## homie (Dec 31, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> This comment surprised me. Can others comment? I guess I presumed BS could do exactly that; turn a close/spot mic into the sound of tree/main mics (at least—in addition to surrounds,etc.). Or, was this “solved” with the advice from


If that worked nobody would have had to record all those additional mic positions since the invention of IR technology. But that's not reality for reasons like lack of specific room/air interaction with the instruments being recorded.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 31, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> This comment surprised me. Can others comment?


Can't comment on Synchron Brass (since I don't own it), but it's not my experience.
(I've used Berlin with MSB as well as with CineBrass Pro).
However, I prefer using a blend of the reverbed with the direct signal for aesthetic reasons.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 31, 2022)

I cannot quickly find the context for the remarks above, that things can remain thin.

My first reaction is that something may not be routed correctly, around the plugin. If you listen to the anechoic demos on the site, this plugin can drown a dry dromedary.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 31, 2022)

@Peter Emanuel Roos : maybe this impression is due to the fact that the input doesn't default to 0dB, and a softer signal appears to be "thinner"?

p.s. you asked this in another thread, but I think that maybe it would be indeed a good idea to default the input to 0 dB. (while leaving the "direct" signal as it is)


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Dec 31, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> @Peter Emanuel Roos : maybe this impression is due to the fact that the input doesn't default to 0dB, and a softer signal appears to be "thinner"?
> 
> p.s. you asked this in another thread, but I think that maybe it would be indeed a good idea to default the input to 0 dB. (while leaving the "direct" signal as it is)


Good point...
Input straight at 0.0 dB and Source at -Inf?
So starting with wet signal(s) only.
Wouldn't that be the best default? Also from a perspective when using it in a Send setup?
Thanks


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## Soundbed (Dec 31, 2022)

Thanks, if it’s a matter of input/source settings (whatever the defaults) then I’ll be able to work with it. Still interested in getting this (BS) at the intro price, because I love the Teldex sound. It definitely seems like the ultimate model for convo verbs.


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## homie (Dec 31, 2022)

Also if you have a thin sounding close mic the body is simply not there and was never recorded to begin with. If you reverberate/filter that signal with another mic position via an IR it won't reappear magically.

Edit: I may just stated the obvious. If so, sorry.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 31, 2022)

Soundbed said:


> Do you use BS with IB and IW? Do you use the the Studio or … I seem to recall a super dry anechoic type signal well.(?)


Still trying to figure out a good approach for using it with the Infinite Series. So far it seems to do better with the Studio environment versus completely dry. 

The woodwinds seem to be better in situ since the woodwinds IR in Berlin Studio is shared across all instruments. 

Whether close mic only or mic mix 1 works better is still with the eggheads down in the lab.


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## David Kudell (Dec 31, 2022)

homie said:


> Also if you have a thin sounding close mic the body is simply not there and was never recorded to begin with. If you reverberate/filter that signal with another mic position via an IR it won't reappear magically.


This is true. The success depends on the quality of the close mic signal. If it's well recorded it will work well. But some sample libraries have close mics but the sample libraries were never intended to be used solely as close mics, they're meant to be blended with the tree mics. For example, Cinematic Studio Brass, if you use solely the close mics, you'll get a more thin sound. If you use only spot mics on a string library, you'll end up with way more rosin sound. 

If you go in thinking you can just use close/spot mics from orchestral libraries with Berlin Studio I think you're not using this in the best way. The best application is for dry instruments that were purposely well recorded dry and not recorded on a scoring stage. For me, that's things like solo woodwinds, solo strings, percussion, guitar, etc.


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## Dietz (Dec 31, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> But some sample libraries have close mics but the sample libraries were never intended to be used solely as close mics, they're meant to be blended with the tree mics.


^^^^^^^^^ This.


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## homie (Dec 31, 2022)

I agree. Another way to look at this is that sample devs could develop a recording/miking method optimized for specific IR sets. Maybe VSL is doing that already!? Anyhow taking random close mics will mostly not work.

Edit: I have doubts that will work that good with brass especially. I mean is there a brass library with close mics which work on their own?


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## Living Fossil (Dec 31, 2022)

homie said:


> Edit: I have doubts that will work that good with brass especially.


I agree.
With the brass libs I use (CineBrass, MSB as well as Century Brass) I see no reason to use the close mics only. With those, I completely mute the AB-Mic in Berlin, and adjust the Decca and Surround to the direct signal (which is the mic mix coming out of Kontakt).

But in the case of MSS I prefer using their close mics only (plus Soothe), since unfortunately I really struggle with the room tone of that library.


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## homie (Dec 31, 2022)

Living Fossil said:


> But in the case of MSS I prefer using their close mics only (plus Soothe), since unfortunately I really struggle with the room tone of that library.


Nice to hear your success with MSS. I suspect woodwinds will also work rather well.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 31, 2022)

homie said:


> Nice to hear your success with MSS. I suspect woodwinds will also work rather well.


Yes, the experiences with woodwinds are excellent.
The (almost 20 years old) VSL woodwinds shine, as do 8dio's Intimate Woodwinds.


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## Dietz (Jan 1, 2023)

homie said:


> sample devs could develop a recording/miking method optimized for specific IR sets. Maybe VSL is doing that already!?


Yes, that's what VSL did. The raw MIR concept dates back to 2002, it was an integral part of the whole idea Vienna Instruments are based on from the very beginning. 

Synchron Series are a different beast, of course.


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## river angler (Jan 1, 2023)

David Kudell said:


> This is true. The success depends on the quality of the close mic signal. If it's well recorded it will work well. But some sample libraries have close mics but the sample libraries were never intended to be used solely as close mics, they're meant to be blended with the tree mics. For example, Cinematic Studio Brass, if you use solely the close mics, you'll get a more thin sound. If you use only spot mics on a string library, you'll end up with way more rosin sound.
> 
> If you go in thinking you can just use close/spot mics from orchestral libraries with Berlin Studio I think you're not using this in the best way. The best application is for dry instruments that were purposely well recorded dry and not recorded on a scoring stage. For me, that's things like solo woodwinds, solo strings, percussion, guitar, etc.


THIS!... I use Chris Hein for all my main woods/strings/brass orchestral instruments: the samples are all recorded bone dry so I suspect this plugin will be perfect for my symphonic mock-ups. 

For percussion I use CinePerc close mic samples. I do occasionally use the flautando and pizzicato from OT Berlin Inspire 2 and very occasionally the rhythmic strings/choirs from Time Macro/Micro. I imagine I could match the OT baked in Teldex from BOI and leave the ambient mics in place from TM and get a much more realistic blend with CH/CinePerc using Berlin Studio. 

For the last few years I've been bussing each grouped orchestral section to Logic's Space Designer reverb which is pretty decent but of course is algorithmic in nature without any placement features let alone custom instrument reflection! 

Sometimes everything marries together well after judicious balancing of section send levels/eq and overall reverb level, giving a passable feeling of sitting in front of an orchestra in an auditorium as I imagine any other algorithmic reverb or single IR convo verb would do to a lesser or greater degree. 

However the key difference to gaining that extra realism as far as traditional orchestral production is concerned with Berlin Studio is that detail of the individual placement and its actual reflective result in that particular respective instruments seating area on the soundstage can never be replicated in any conventional reverb plug in. That's the big difference here and precisely what Daniel James pointed out in his video on BS.

I'm sure the developer will agree that his own Bricasti reverb, all be it one with its own high quality flavour, is no different in this respect from any other reverb out there.

It certainly looks like Berlin Studio will push the envelope to a more realistic, exciting orchestral sonic. For me if this is the case that extra realism/detailed ambient polish is a worthy thing to have especially when it comes to presenting new orchestral work to classical label execs!


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## syrinx (Jan 1, 2023)

eric_w said:


> Any comparison to the good ol VSS2?


Ok, so here's an attempt by me.
First and third examples are VSS2+VSL's Convolution Reverb. The second and fourth are Berlin Studio. I'm using the VSL Synchronized Special Edition plus Triple horn (with the unprocessed, original signal).

Imho Berlin Studio has a more "realistic" effect on horns. I'm sure it's possible to get closer to that with VSS2+reverb, but I like the almost-instant result with BS. It's more intuitive to me to mix with the signals. 

Here's my settings for VSS2+reverb:









...and for Berlin Studio (note that I've reduce the size and tail a bit):


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## Dietz (Jan 1, 2023)

syrinx said:


> First and third examples are VSS2+VSL's Convolution Reverb.


... so you put natural ERs on top of artificial ERs ...? Hmmmm.


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## syrinx (Jan 1, 2023)

Dietz said:


> ... so you put natural ERs on top of artificial ERs ...? Hmmmm.



I assume you mean that there's an ER part of a convolution reverb then? I didn't know that. Thanks for the input. I'm a classically trained composer, and unfortunately mostly self-taught when it comes to mixing and how reverb works. This kind of makes me more convinced Berlin Studio is better for me. Less chance of screwing stuff up. But it also makes me wish even more I had a second degree in sound engineering...

Here's another attempt, using VSS2 + VSL's Hybrid reverb with a Scoring Stage preset with the ER turned off.


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## Dietz (Jan 1, 2023)

syrinx said:


> there's an ER part of a convolution reverb then?


Exactly. Unless they are cut away, there will be always natural early reflections in an impulse response captured in a real room. They are quite easy to spot, most of the time, especially in rooms that have a dense, diffuse reverb tail (i.e. the part that comes after the discrete reflections) like Teldex:


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## Rob (Jan 1, 2023)

just got the plugin, and I'm really liking it... but it keeps asking for validation, and since my main pc insn't connected to the web it gets a bit annoying.


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## river angler (Jan 1, 2023)

syrinx said:


> ...but I like the almost-instant result with BS. It's more intuitive to me to mix with the signals.


THIS! ... I'm sure one could fool the ear by flaffing around with all manor of different conventional reverbs/playing around with EQ etc but indeed the point of Berlin Studio with its unique instrument sectional placement ability and furthermore its separately adjustable mic channels is that it gets you there instantly and more poignantly: concisely.


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## syrinx (Jan 1, 2023)

Dietz said:


> Exactly. Unless they are cut away, there will be always natural early reflections in an impulse response captured in a real room. They are quite easy to spot, most of the time, especially in rooms that have a dense, diffuse reverb tail (i.e. the part that comes after the discrete reflections) like Teldex:


Thanks for taking the time to answer!  

I have just tried separating VSL's Hybrid Reverb to two buses with the "Berlin Stage" preset (Teldex IR) and I get results more similar to the Berlin Studio plugin than with VSS2.


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## AR (Jan 1, 2023)

I wonder why nobody mentioned that Orchestral Tools recorded most of their libraries in the "wide" position? @Leandro Gardini, great video btw. Enjoyed it.
But Samplicity won't match the dry samples to OT stuff. Unfortunately. Pitty :/
Unless, there is an option to turn the direction 90°. The difference in such is huge. Wide perspective means broader stereo image/less depth. My guess from the videos is, that Ark1 (and that's why everybody likes it and it has a more Abbey Road-ish vibe to it) was recorded in the same situ like the Berlin Studio plugin IRs. Though, later OT changed to the broader perspective. Check Junkie XL Brass Final Epsiode "We have Liftoff!" on YT, where you can see at minute 2:32, Hendrik Schwarzer looking down at the stage and everything is placed 90°. I'm building my new template with MIR 3D which gives me the wide option and it looks something like this atm.


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## river angler (Jan 1, 2023)

AR said:


> I wonder why nobody mentioned that Orchestral Tools recorded most of their libraries in the "wide" position? @Leandro Gardini, great video btw. Enjoyed it.
> But Samplicity won't match the dry samples to OT stuff. Unfortunately. Pitty :/
> Unless, there is an option to turn the direction 90°. The difference in such is huge. Wide perspective means broader stereo image/less depth. My guess from the videos is, that Ark1 (and that's why everybody likes it and it has a more Abbey Road-ish vibe to it) was recorded in the same situ like the Berlin Studio plugin IRs. Though, later OT changed to the broader perspective. Check Junkie XL Brass Final Epsiode "We have Liftoff!" on YT, where you can see at minute 2:32, Hendrik Schwarzer looking down at the stage and everything is placed 90°. I'm building my new template with MIR 3D which gives me the wide option and it looks something like this atm.


You have a point here! but actually I think the Berlin Studio's main objective is to provide a solution for productions using dry/close miked samples.

I think it's inevitable that its version of the Teldex is not going to sound exactly the same as the ambience in OT instruments. For my own purposes of the few OT samples I do use I may well end up using the close mike versions (if having to doctor the envelope/release samples a little in BOI 2 to achieve this) At least that way everything is dry and can be slung into their appropriate placements on the Teldex soundstage without any noticeable sonic inconsistency.


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## Trash Panda (Jan 1, 2023)

AR said:


> I wonder why nobody mentioned that Orchestral Tools recorded most of their libraries in the "wide" position? @Leandro Gardini, great video btw. Enjoyed it.
> But Samplicity won't match the dry samples to OT stuff. Unfortunately. Pitty :/
> Unless, there is an option to turn the direction 90°. The difference in such is huge. Wide perspective means broader stereo image/less depth. My guess from the videos is, that Ark1 (and that's why everybody likes it and it has a more Abbey Road-ish vibe to it) was recorded in the same situ like the Berlin Studio plugin IRs. Though, later OT changed to the broader perspective. Check Junkie XL Brass Final Epsiode "We have Liftoff!" on YT, where you can see at minute 2:32, Hendrik Schwarzer looking down at the stage and everything is placed 90°. I'm building my new template with MIR 3D which gives me the wide option and it looks something like this atm.


JXL Brass is the only library recorded in the wide configuration.


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## AR (Jan 1, 2023)

Trash Panda said:


> JXL Brass is the only library recorded in the wide configuration.


And Symphonic Strings ARK0 as far as I can tell from the videos.


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## Zanshin (Jan 1, 2023)

My understanding is that Berlin Studio IRs were created with OT’s Berlin seating and microphone setup. Not an approximation after the fact, but the same setup.

I think the narrow Teldex seating creates a front to back depth that is one of the key contributors to the Berlin main’s beautiful character.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 2, 2023)

AR said:


> I wonder why nobody mentioned that Orchestral Tools recorded most of their libraries in the "wide" position? @Leandro Gardini, great video btw. Enjoyed it.
> But Samplicity won't match the dry samples to OT stuff. Unfortunately. Pitty :/
> Unless, there is an option to turn the direction 90°. The difference in such is huge. Wide perspective means broader stereo image/less depth. My guess from the videos is, that Ark1 (and that's why everybody likes it and it has a more Abbey Road-ish vibe to it) was recorded in the same situ like the Berlin Studio plugin IRs. Though, later OT changed to the broader perspective. Check Junkie XL Brass Final Epsiode "We have Liftoff!" on YT, where you can see at minute 2:32, Hendrik Schwarzer looking down at the stage and everything is placed 90°. I'm building my new template with MIR 3D which gives me the wide option and it looks something like this atm.


The recordings for the Berlin Studio IRs were done right after sessions for an Orchestral Tools library.

The microphones were not setup for a "rotated" / wide setting, neither was Orchestral Tools using that approach then, otherwise we would have used it for the IRs, which were also created for Orchestral Tools solo instrument libraries and are included in a number of them.

Maybe more recent libraries have been created with the wide approach, but as far as I know not the original strings, woodwinds, brass, etc.


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## AR (Jan 2, 2023)

So, Igudesman Solo Violin and Modus are recorded (let me call it) "the long way", and then again Tableau Ensemble Strings are recorded the wide perspective as one can see in the videos.


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## Rob (Jan 2, 2023)

just discovered how beautiful the "Front stage wide" position is on piano, basically just the Surround mics:

View attachment Poulenc-Toccata.mp3


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## xanderscores (Jan 5, 2023)

Soundbed said:


> This comment surprised me. Can others comment? I guess I presumed BS could do exactly that; turn a close/spot mic into the sound of tree/main mics (at least—in addition to surrounds,etc.). Or, was this “solved” with the advice from @Peter Emanuel Roos ?
> 
> 
> Do you use BS with IB and IW? Do you use the the Studio or … I seem to recall a super dry anechoic type signal well.(?)


This comment stems from my first trying to fatten a super dry close mic French horn signal. My impression was that Berlin Studio can't make up for that kind of lacking in the source signal. At least not without heavy use of other plug-ins. However, this is an almost unfair (and not very practical) test trying to get a dry French horn to sound fat and wet. I have used Berlin Studio with other instruments with great effect, so please don't let this edge case keep you from using or at least trying it. It IS a sensational tool.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 5, 2023)

Here is a very quick French Horn example with samples from the Philharmonia London,
first dry, then wet

Quite dry French Horn

Source of samples:
https://philharmonia.co.uk/resources/sound-samples/


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## Soundbed (Jan 5, 2023)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> Here is a very quick French Horn example with samples from the Philharmonia London,
> first dry, then wet
> 
> Quite dry French Horn
> ...


Is it just me or does that sound crazy good? I might have to rent a French horn and work on my embouchure.


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## Rob (Jan 5, 2023)

there are so many ways to combine source and mic positions in BStudio, here's another example of a solo horn; french horns normal position, a bit more of the surround mics and with some direct signal because I like it that way but really one can experiment for hours

View attachment FH-BS.mp3


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 5, 2023)

Rob said:


> there are so many ways to combine source and mic positions in BStudio, here's another example of a solo horn; french horns normal position, a bit more of the surround mics and with some direct signal because I like it that way but really one can experiment for hours
> 
> View attachment FH-BS.mp3


Thank you, so much more appropriate than my quick and dirty mashup... 

(I don't have a working Daw with access to my libraries at the moment )


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## Rob (Jan 5, 2023)

Peter Emanuel Roos said:


> Thank you, so much more appropriate than my quick and dirty mashup...
> 
> (I don't have a working Daw with access to my libraries at the moment )


thank you Peter, for creating a fantastic reverb


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