# So... Osama's dead



## choc0thrax (May 1, 2011)

Heh, kinda neat I guess.


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## lux (May 2, 2011)

nikolas @ Sun May 01 said:


> Am I completely weird that I don't understand? :S



thats because you guys stopped hanging people several years ago. We stopped that as well here after second war. This thing changed radically our culture and life. I can say luckily.

I just cant get happy of having someone killed. Thats because i'm european and italian.


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## SvK (May 2, 2011)

Lux....

Remind me again how your people handled Mussolini?

U strung him up in the market and everyone was allowed to kick him in the head....
Give me a break with your faux, humanitarian righteousness.....


SvK


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## lux (May 2, 2011)

Soo expected. Maybe reading the part where i say we stopped in second war helps. Maybe you should remove the sticker from the bottom part of the screen.

anyway, this is an all american thread, so i will stay away. Just ignore me and I will not post anymore here.

btw..i was responding to Nikolas, just for your info.


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## Jaap (May 2, 2011)

I understand and feel the same Lux, but beside my strong personal believes that I disagree with any form of killing (even if it's Osama) I think it would have been better if they managed to catch him alive (though the practical side of that is nearly impossible I guess) to avoid making him a martyr.


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## bdr (May 2, 2011)

Wow...does anyone believe the world is not a better place with him gone? Even if just a small amount?


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## Jaap (May 2, 2011)

I am glad he is not functioning anymore (don't get me wrong. I am completely against Osama and the terror he has caused), however I (and that is my personal opinion) is that no human being has the right to kill anyone (excluding the fact in circumstances of self defence), no matter what the other one has done. We have local, national and international justice systems and I believe that one should have to be brought to a justice system, but never should be killed. No matter if you have one death or thousands of deaths on your account.


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## Dan Mott (May 2, 2011)

I'm happy about this.


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## autopilot (May 2, 2011)

Is it true that he had an iPhone?


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## chimuelo (May 2, 2011)

Now the way that General Patreus became head of the CIA last week makes even more sense. Once Bin Laden got whacked his job was done.
Pannetta as SecDef is better suited for a politician/lawyer.

Maybe the boys that love to play war in the Pentagon have all of the proof they need about highly trained teams, using B2's and drones instead of making young men and women walk the streets wondering if today is their turn.

Just think of the billions saved by bringing the 200,000+ we have deployed in SW Asia and Iraq.
This is the type of military action that I can support. No civilians, and none of our guys. Much more sense than spending billions on someone elses infrastructure.

Independants like me trust nobody these days, but if Obama brings home our troops, and starts spending money here instead of there, that is so logical I will remain in the Liberal camp. Unless they ban Sushi Bars or some other stupid utopian nonsense.


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## re-peat (May 2, 2011)

bdr @ Mon May 02 said:


> Wow...does anyone believe the world is not a better place with him gone? Even if just a small amount?



What a touchingly naive idea.
As we speak, there are millions and millions of Osamas, maybe drinking a coffee, or saying a prayer, or cleaning their weapons or making love.

But to answer your question: no, I don't think so. 

_


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## rayinstirling (May 2, 2011)

It changes nothing.

It would have been better if Pakistan had taken care of him.
Oh! silly me..........they did.


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## lux (May 2, 2011)

well, apart of hysterical replies (well..actually just one) i find interesting to see how different countries and cultures handle the topic. Small differences in a legal system (like 2-3 articles) can point out a big hole between two cultures on certain matters. Which is per se interesting.


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

Perhaps if the naysaysers in this thread had a wife who was forced to walk through pieces of dead bodies and watch people jump off the WTC before she could wend her way home, you'd feel differently. Perhaps if you had a wife who developed PTSD as a result, with her brain chemistry altered for life, you'd feel differently.Perhaps if you had to do a frantic search for your 11 year old son, you'd feel differently. Perhaps if you were a mile and a half away watching the smoke come off the towers looking down Broadway, you'd feel differently. 

I would have been happier if he'd been captured and there had been due process, but I wouldn't have sacrificed more American lives to do so. For us in New York (and those in Washington, I assume) there is a small amount of closure. We lived it and live it still, and really, the rest of you watched it on a little screen, no? For us, yep, the world feels a little cleaner, just like when Hitler died or when Pol Pot died. It's not a matter of celebrating a death-it's a bit of grim recognition that a period has been put on this particular incident, the worst attack on the mainland U.S.in history.


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## snowleopard (May 2, 2011)

I don't normally wish anyone dead, but I have to admit I'm happy about this. The President said it very well. Bin Laden wasn't a Muslim leader, he was a mass murderer. 

Desperate farmers and such in the Middle East caught up and killed in war, even many that take up arms, I can feel some sympathy for those that die. But not Bin Laden. The world is definitely a better place with him gone. 

Big props to Obama and his team, the CIA, and SEAL Team Six and all that helped pull this off.


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## Jaap (May 2, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 02 said:


> Perhaps if the naysaysers in this thread had a wife who was forced to walk through pieces of dead bodies and watch people jump off the WTC before she could wend her way home, you'd feel differently. Perhaps if you had a wife who developed PTSD as a result, with her brain chemistry altered for life, you'd feel differently.Perhaps if you had to do a frantic search for your 11 year old son, you'd feel differently. Perhaps if you were a mile and a half away watching the smoke come off the towers looking down Broadway, you'd feel differently.



I am really sorry to hear that, I really am, however you are implying that even if you say such things as I am saying now that I (or any other here) haven't faced such terror. I have endured a bomb attack in the Paris metro where I was just about to enter the metro station with a school excursion back in 1995 and I lost a dear friend with whom I studied in the horrible attack of Madrid in 2004.

This however doesn't change my view. Of course I had and still have feelings for revenge, but what better am I if I wish or even execute somebody to death then the other one(s) who started the killing.
Saying it again, I am fiercly against Osama, any form of terrorism and I am not that naive to say that wars are avoidable. In battle there is less choice between killing and surving.


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## lux (May 2, 2011)

edit: I'll stay out of it. On some matters i think i cannot discuss with US based people, unless i want to end up insulted or insult myself someone. maybe you guys could give a sincere thought about how much you are really interested to hear different takes


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

Jaap @ Mon May 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps if the naysaysers in this thread had a wife who was forced to walk through pieces of dead bodies and watch people jump off the WTC before she could wend her way home, you'd feel differently. Perhaps if you had a wife who developed PTSD as a result, with her brain chemistry altered for life, you'd feel differently.Perhaps if you had to do a frantic search for your 11 year old son, you'd feel differently. Perhaps if you were a mile and a half away watching the smoke come off the towers looking down Broadway, you'd feel differently.
> ...



I have no feelings of revenge, nor do I believe in capital punishment. I believe that there are items of war that are inevitable, that this conflict of guerilla warfare merited a response in kind, and that there is some closure in all of that for people who were DIRECTLY affected by THIS incident.


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

lux @ Mon May 02 said:


> edit: I'll stay out of it. On some matters i think i cannot discuss with US based people, unless i want to end up insulted or insult myself someone. maybe you guys could give a sincere thought about how much you are really interested to hear different takes



I never cut you off or refused to engage with you or hear your ideas. I merely responded directly and strongly. To suggest otherwise is to be patronizing, as is the idea that there is only one train of thought among "US people". One wonders how you would feel about a sentence starting with "well, all you Europeans think..."

If you're worried about being insulted, then yes, you should probably stay out of it. I am not.


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## lux (May 2, 2011)

you already insulted me calling me a naysayer dont you? I think that pretty much killed any discussion here.


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## MichaelL (May 2, 2011)

lux @ Mon May 02 said:


> you already insulted me calling me a naysayer dont you? I think that pretty much killed any discussion here.




This is a point of closure for us --NOT a point of discussion for you. 

You said twice that you would/should stay out of it. Good idea.


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

lux @ Mon May 02 said:


> you already insulted me calling me a naysayer dont you? I think that pretty much killed any discussion here.



Then I apologize. Its a fairly emotional issue for me as you can see from my post. Please continue your thoughts, and I'll try to refrain from insulting you further.


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## lux (May 2, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 02 said:


> Please continue your thoughts, and I'll try to refrain from insulting you further.





MichaelL @ Mon May 02 said:


> This is a point of closure for us --NOT a point of discussion for you.
> 
> You said twice that you would/should stay out of it. Good idea.


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## choc0thrax (May 2, 2011)

Jaap @ Mon May 02 said:


> We have local, national and international justice systems and I believe that one should have to be brought to a justice system, but never should be killed. No matter if you have one death or thousands of deaths on your account.



OK, so what if Hitler won back in the day and is still in power now. He's super old and all those nazi scientists who went to NASA instead have been developing technology to keep him alive and basically he's RoboHitler now. He's killed billions and made it mandatory to follow his Twitter feed everyday. There's intel that there's a good chance the rebel alliance, with the help of the ewoks finally has a shot at killing him but any attempt to take him alive would likely fail. Would you still try to take him alive? Remember, RoboHitler loves GLEE and it runs on all TV stations 24/7.


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

lux @ Mon May 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Mon May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Please continue your thoughts, and I'll try to refrain from insulting you further.
> ...



Exactly. There isn't a "U.S." point of view. We're individuals. Like Europeans.


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## lux (May 2, 2011)

honestly i never implied any comparison as good or bad. I've been attacked histerically by Svk when i pointed out with Nikolas that some things are very different culturally. Of course i'm european, and i like my cultural background. I consider with a positive view our conquers in terms of human rights, including the refuse of any death penalty from over firty years.

Still i can perfectly see how is different in oher countries, where history did lead to different assets. Which i respect, of course. i can see that maybe my tone sounded like an attack probably


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## Jaap (May 2, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Mon May 02 said:


> Jaap @ Mon May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > We have local, national and international justice systems and I believe that one should have to be brought to a justice system, but never should be killed. No matter if you have one death or thousands of deaths on your account.
> ...



Yes Choco, that doesn't change my view. 

@NYCcomposer - I understand it brings closure and the last thing I want is to undo those feelings.
To understand the bigger point. Osama was also responsible for the death of my friend (the madrid attack was also issued by Al Qaida). He infected me and my life also directly. I was having a relationship with his sister at that time and that got broken because she was too heartbroken and lost grip for a long time. For me it doesn't bring closure.
We all have different views and opinions and that is great. This is the great thing of freedom of speech and we live in different countries, with different visions, resembling the majority of those thoughts. I wish you with whole my heart all the best and luck in bearing all this and again I am glad it brings closure to you. Take care!


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## stonzthro (May 2, 2011)

Whatever you may think or feel about capital punishment is irrelevant here: there was probably no way on earth for the special forces troops to bring him in alive, so it's kind of a strange point to make. I'm sure everyone would be just as happy if he were captured and not been killed, but Osama fought back (or so the reports say) so he wasn't going in alive. To be making this a thread about capital punishment is kind of self-indulgent.

An evil man is gone. Whether it slow or stop al-Qaeda remains to be seen. I for one, certainly hope so.


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## dcoscina (May 2, 2011)

lux @ Mon May 02 said:


> nikolas @ Sun May 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Am I completely weird that I don't understand? :S
> ...



Lux, you and I don't agree on much, but I totally agree with your sentiment. 


For a country (the US) that purports to be so Christian minded, I have difficulties in understanding why people rejoice over the death of another human being. To me, it's stooping to the same level as those who transgress against us. I'm not saying Bin Laden didn't have it coming, but the elation over this event is disturbing to me. Besides, now he's dead, he's going to be looked upon as a martyr to his followers and that might in fact make him more powerful in some respects. 

We will see how things unfold.


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

re-peat @ Mon May 02 said:


> bdr @ Mon May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow...does anyone believe the world is not a better place with him gone? Even if just a small amount?
> ...



Thankfully, I retain my childlike naïveté , and my world is slightly improved whenever a mass murderer is taken off the board. Doubly so if he directly affects my life.


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

dcoscina @ Mon May 02 said:


> lux @ Mon May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > nikolas @ Sun May 01 said:
> ...



Ah yes, barbaric America, celebrating the death of a mass murderer who executed over 3000 civilians. 

If he could have been captured and incarcerated for life, I would have been forbid, but I would not have risked more American lives to do so. 

As for myself, I'm not celebrating, but I'm glad he's dead.


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## dcoscina (May 2, 2011)

I'm also American BTW NYC composer. As for what happened- obviously it needed to go down this way. That's not contestable. I don't think anyone would object to this, much like Hitler had to go down. It's more the type of reaction, especially from some who espouse such high Christian ideals. to me, this is moral hypocrisy. If you are non religious, hey, have a ball I say.

EDIT- I will say this however- I don't think it's wise to use the argument about how many people Bin-laden killed. The U.S. has killed thousands of people, as has the British, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, pretty much any advanced imperialist nation at some point or another all in the name of nationalism or righteousnesses. The only problem is that morality is a flexible, subjective ideology. It bends to the will of whomever wields the most power as a rationale for one's actions, good or bad.


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## antoniopandrade (May 2, 2011)

Being an international student living in America I must admit my first reaction to the celebration was one of shock. So many people celebrating the death of a person. However, as NYC Composer has stated numerous times, I am NOT and will NEVER understand what they went through here. I was not directly involved in the events, and therefore cannot comprehend the sentiments of all these people celebrating. 

That being said, I refrain from judging the American people and will only say, that a symbol of murder and destruction was removed from the world. A dark stain on one of the largest cultures in the world. And I'm happy that the American people can get their closure (which I hope they can after this). Now I only hope that in the coming months America and the world can settle down, and try to live without the constant, widespread terror fear that has assaulted us since 2001.

Congratulations USA, this is your moment, and despite what anyone might say, you have all the right in the world to celebrate!


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## jlb (May 2, 2011)

These cowards including Bin Laden were using a woman as a human shield. Who cares that they are dead, good riddance

jlb


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## MichaelL (May 2, 2011)

lux @ Mon May 02 said:


> . Thats because i'm european and italian.



And apparently more culture-centric and elitist than any supposedly jingoistic American.


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## lux (May 2, 2011)

I appreciate the spirit of your post Brian


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## SvK (May 2, 2011)

What does that say about "The Wizard Of Oz"?
All those people deriving pleasure from the death of the wicked witch....

How dare they!!

SvK


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## Guy Bacos (May 2, 2011)

Not that I enjoy watching dead corps but I would of liked to see proof that he is dead, even though it seems quite credible. When Saddam Hussein was caught, we all saw this.


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## JonFairhurst (May 2, 2011)

antoniopandrade @ Mon May 02 said:


> ...I'm happy that the American people can get their closure (which I hope they can after this). Now I only hope that in the coming months America and the world can settle down, and try to live without the constant, widespread terror fear that has assaulted us since 2001.



That represents my core value here. I don't celebrate bin Laden's death, but I look forward to the next phase of history when we are less obsessed with terrorism.

BTW, I just returned from Madrid where I attended a bullfight. Europe is not completely without blood lust.


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

JonFairhurst @ Mon May 02 said:


> antoniopandrade @ Mon May 02 said:
> 
> 
> > ...I'm happy that the American people can get their closure (which I hope they can after this). Now I only hope that in the coming months America and the world can settle down, and try to live without the constant, widespread terror fear that has assaulted us since 2001.
> ...



I doubt anyone in New York will be less obsessed with terrorism. The death of Bin Laden probably elevates the threat to us. Most of us just refuse to live in fear.


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## JonFairhurst (May 2, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 02 said:


> Most of us just refuse to live in fear.



I vote for that policy!


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## José Herring (May 2, 2011)

Not really a celebration of his death. That would be a bit of a daft view of this. It's a celebration of victory. A celebration of justice. A celebration of good triumphing over evil. 

Nobody is perfect. No nation is perfect. We've all done things that bring shame. But there are those who are trying to survive and those who are trying to destroy. Bin Laden was a destroyer. His life yielded way more harm to society than good. He needed to be eliminated. 

Would it have been better to capture him, give him a trial, then hang him? Nah.

My son is nine. and he ask the questions that a lot of nine year olds ask. He asked me the other day if I could go back in time knowing what I know about the holocaust. Go back in time, before Hiltler came to power, would I kill him? I didn't even hesitate to answer. I'd blow the motherfucker away.

Bin Landen was a guy that was trying to wage a war on civilians. He had no intentions of ever fighting an honest fight. The cowards used civilians as shields. I'm not sorry he's dead. I'm not sorry that people are celebrating. I'm glad I live in a country that has the balls to do what's right no matter what the cost, no matter how long it takes, no matter where it takes us.

Europe is so weak morally right now that they can't even decide what right is. They long ago abandoned us. They can't even fight for themselves when somebody is attacking them. There was a plot to blow up sights in Europe that the US uncovered and stopped. So we are protecting them too.

Yet all we get in return is sneers and accusations of being barbarians. Barbarians we are not. We are just not so jaded yet that we still have the desire to protect and help and defend against evil.

Al-Qaeda is dangerous. The need to be destroyed. Bin Laden was their leader. No need to think deep. He needed to be taken out. To bad the last American administration was so evil that they couldn't even figure out what to do, but instead attacked Iraq. Thank God this administration righted that wrong.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 2, 2011)

This is what I posted on Facebook this morning. I sort of feel the same way as Lux.

"Bin Laden was a total POS. Thousands of people will live in pain for the rest of their lives because of him. I'm glad he was killed - and especially glad he wasn't captured alive to put on a big circus show.

And yet I can't help feeling uncomfortable about all the dancing in the streets here."

Then:

"And of course I admire the intelligence and Navy Seal successes.

My reaction to dancing after a guy is shot in the eye is purely emotional. Again, I'm glad he's dead; celebrating his death is what doesn't feel right to me.

Am I the only one?"

Then:

"Yeah, I'm having a hard time feeling good about this. Unfortunately it doesn't bring all those people back. But I do hope some of the people who lost people in Bin Laden murders feel better."

(I'm leaving out other peoples' comments, because they may not want them posted here.)


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## RiffWraith (May 2, 2011)

josejherring @ Tue May 03 said:


> Not really a celebration of his death. That would be a bit of a daft view of this. It's a celebration of victory. A celebration of justice. A celebration of good triumphing over evil.



Exactly. Would we all be celebrating just the same if he were not killed, but captured? You bet.

Cheers.


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## NYC Composer (May 2, 2011)

I'm not celebrating....and no, I'm not comfortable with people whooping and dancing regarding death, not even the death of a mass murderer, but of course there is no end to bloodlust and simple-mindedness in the world. 

All I've said is that here in NYC, we have a little bit of closure over all of this (though frankly, my family's lives will never be the same) and maybe people who aren't from here should let us have it without all the high minded moral overviews.
For me and my family, our reactions are experiential and very direct, and still, we live with the same dangers every day.

Y'all go ahead and pontificate from your ivory towers, though, while we wait for the next shoe to drop. We'll just stay here, grim but determined not to let fear mongers dictate to us or make us run from our homes.

End transmission. This is obviously, and quite literally, too close to home for me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 2, 2011)

Larry, I hope you don't think I for one am pontificating from an ivory tower. My comments are purely emotional; I'm glad you have some closure because of this.

And by the way I think you may be underestimating the effect 9/11 had on people outside of NY too. We were farther away than you were, but it was a pretty powerful event.


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## rayinstirling (May 2, 2011)

Larry,

I'm not sad he's gone, I just think it changes nothing in the world. There are probably thousands willing to follow his example now he's a martyr to his dubious cause. They we're willing to die when he lived and they'll be willing to die in his memory.
That's the problem. How do you stop someone taking others with them if they aren't afraid of their own death?

Just to add, my wife and I visited Ground Zero last year where we stood quietly and our thoughts were of all those who died that day and families who've suffered since.
Unfortunately it wasn't us Johnny Foreigners disturbing the piece laughing and joking and carrying on while taking pictures in front of that backdrop. No it was Americans.

Now I'll leave it at that because as someone else said. We shouldn't fall out over this. No one wins.


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## RiffWraith (May 2, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue May 03 said:


> Larry, I hope you don't think I for one am pontificating from an ivory tower.



I for one, am sure you are not. 

But, for me, like Larry, the events of 9/11 hit a little too close to home. I vividly remember walking across the 59th st. bridge to get home on that day, seeing all the somber faces of all of the NYers I walked with, and looking out across the water to see downtown Manhattan turned into a huge pillar of smoke. 

So today, I celebrate the victory, and the justice handed down by the Obama admin, and the US military. And if that celebration comes because of the death of an individual who was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people on that day and others, then so be it.

Cheers.


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## Jaap (May 2, 2011)

Jose - You are mashing Europe into one. Europe is a continent and not a country. We have a shitload of countries here with extreme cultural background. Trying to organise that (see European Union) is a big mess due to this. We are not one country, we are a collection of countries with a cultural background of thousands and thousands of years. That is not something you bind easily. Heck in my own country (which is small) is already so much historical and cultural difference, we have 3 official languages and the north is so much different then the south culturally speaking, so you can't imagine how much difference there is between Iceland and Turkey and everything in between.

Some of our countries have less people in it then an average US city (I think the Netherlands has as much people living as the NY metropole area for example).

A lot of countries have not abandoned the USA and are still co-operating in the wars. You should not confuse abandon with being honestly critical. The US is critical towards other countries and so are some European countries towards the US. That is logical and fair. One should not always take things for granted straight away and also the cultural difference comes to a point. With that I am NOT implying the US are barbarians or we are elite, some of our countries are just as different as the US and China are.

Edit: I want to add that not only the US is harmed by Osama. We have had attacks in Europe, a lot of countries went to war with all the casualties that came with it.
It is not just happening in the US, but Al Qaida infected a lot of countries with terroristic attacks. Therefore I do not understand why some say here that we don't have the right to speak up or that we cannot feel or identify with what has happened. It affected much more then just NY and Washington DC and it went beyond the attacks of 9/11.


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## mikebarry (May 2, 2011)

As a NYer with one family member who worked in the south tower and 4 family members working next door in the financial district I say fuck osama. We all knew people killed by the attacks. No one gives a shit here in Los Angeles, I am the only one with an American flag out today.

Shows how fickle religion can be - both by the attacks and the rejoicings.


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## madbulk (May 2, 2011)

I don't think I'm underestimating the effect outside NYC, but I'd have a hard time overstating the effect within. The two are dissimilar, I'm quite sure.


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## Ryan Scully (May 2, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Mon May 02 said:


> But, for me, like Larry, the events of 9/11 hit a little too close to home. I vividly remember walking across the 59th st. bridge to get home on that day, seeing all the somber faces of all of the NYers I walked with, and looking out across the water to see downtown Manhattan turned into a huge pillar of smoke. So today, I celebrate the victory, and the justice handed down by the Obama admin, and the US military. And if that celebration comes because of the death of an individual who was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people on that day and others, then so be it.Cheers.



+1

I couldn't agree more - I am a born and raised NYer myself and I witnessed the tragedy that day first hand as well. There can never be any measureable amount of closure for those that lost family/friends and co-workers that day but if this POS's death signifies any feeling of justice for them and this country than so be it..I know I feel it.


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## Ashermusic (May 2, 2011)

Jaap @ Mon May 02 said:


> J
> Edit: I want to add that not only the US is harmed by Osama. We have had attacks in Europe, a lot of countries went to war with all the casualties that came with it.
> It is not just happening in the US, but Al Qaida infected a lot of countries with terroristic attacks. Therefore I do not understand why some say here that we don't have the right to speak up or that we cannot feel or identify with what has happened. It affected much more then just NY and Washington DC and it went beyond the attacks of 9/11.



This is the critical point. He not only was a murderous enemy of the US but the Western world as a whole and even fellow Muslims who he considered too conciliatory to the West.


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## Ashermusic (May 2, 2011)

mikebarry @ Mon May 02 said:


> As a NYer with one family member who worked in the south tower and 4 family members working next door in the financial district I say f#@k osama. We all knew people killed by the attacks. No one gives a [email protected]#t here in Los Angeles, I am the only one with an American flag out today.
> 
> Shows how fickle religion can be - both by the attacks and the rejoicings.



Well I am in LA and I definitely do give a shit. I only wish it could have been right on him.


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## madbulk (May 2, 2011)

I'm not celebrating. I'm just happy. And I don't know about a victory either. Congratulations and thanks to the brave men involved and to the President for this, and ABSOLUTELY THRILLED to think that this is any comfort to anyone who lost someone that day, but if you had told me the day after that he'd be alive another ten years and there'd still be a hole in the ground outside Century 21 I'd have looked at you like you were nuts. Victory was not available. It's merely good to keep your promise to eventually get him, and to never forget.


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## George Caplan (May 3, 2011)

people think too much. now you can think about the next worlds most wanted who currently resides in yemen... maybe.


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## bryla (May 3, 2011)

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

-- Martin Luther King, Jr

I know I'm speaking to an American crowd here, but why the notion that the 3000 killed in 9/11 were completely innocent victims despite the fact that they were working for the US military and financial institutions, which may seem to be important war targets, but the hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by US and allied troops in the middle east never get mentioned more than collateral damage. Is it that much worse that one thing happened in the course of 48 hours?

and to quote a friend on the question: Osama's dead, what's next?

"George Bush is still not captured"


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## Ed (May 3, 2011)

bryla @ Tue May 03 said:


> I know I'm speaking to an American crowd here, but why the notion that the 3000 killed in 9/11 were completely innocent victims



wow... seriously? Im not sure what to say to that....


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## Ashermusic (May 3, 2011)

bryla @ Tue May 03 said:


> "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
> 
> -- Martin Luther King, Jr
> 
> ...



With all due respect to MLK, he was murdered by haters. And "light" did not stop Hitler, massive military effort did. MLK and Gandhi's tactics work well when your enemy is in a democratic government that has to be answerable at least somewhat to the public opinion of its citizens but when dealing with terrorists who have at least a fair amount of people behind them who believe that murdering of innocents is acceptable, those tactics will not work and deadly force is required.

And remember, Bin Laden did not just kill Americans but Africans, Italians, Brits, French, even other Muslims etc.


I am glad he is dead and I look forward to the day Ayman al-Zawahiri is as well.


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## madbulk (May 3, 2011)

bryla @ Tue May 03 said:


> "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
> 
> -- Martin Luther King, Jr
> 
> ...



LOL. That was awesome.


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## Stevie (May 3, 2011)

Jose, your cancer example does not work at all...



> In the end though. It's been a tough long war. Celebrating a win, a victory of sorts, isn't all that barbaric.



So you really think this is over? I'm not too sure about that. The al-Qaida didn't only consist of bin Laden. I doubt terrorism will just stop by killing the leader.


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## madbulk (May 3, 2011)

That would've been my thinking too, but
most of the talking heads I'm hearing are responding to this idea with, "You'd be surprised how much was vested in this one guy. Al-Zawahiri does not have OBL's sway and can't fill his shoes."
It's being characterized as "Don't underestimate the strategic significance of this."

Over? Of course not. It will effectively never be over.


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## bryla (May 3, 2011)

Sorry about the misquote, basically what I was trying to say: To many people in other parts of the world George Bush and other 'allies' are just as much cancer as bin Laden/Al-Qaeda is to the US.

To me George Bush is just as much a terrorist as Bin Laden was. He is cancer, he killed many people around the world as well as Americans - through sloppy bureaucracy and neglecting his home country in honor of mammon.


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## Ashermusic (May 3, 2011)

bryla @ Tue May 03 said:


> To me George Bush is just as much a terrorist as Bin Laden was. He is cancer, he killed many people around the world as well as Americans - through sloppy bureaucracy and neglecting his home country in honor of mammon.



And probably you see Hitler and Harry Truman as morally equivalent because Truman had A bombs dropped on Hiroshama and Nagasaki?


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## José Herring (May 3, 2011)

Ah, you're missing the point. Which is understandable. Best to you Stevie.

Jose


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## bryla (May 3, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Tue May 03 said:


> bryla @ Tue May 03 said:
> 
> 
> > To me George Bush is just as much a terrorist as Bin Laden was. He is cancer, he killed many people around the world as well as Americans - through sloppy bureaucracy and neglecting his home country in honor of mammon.
> ...


So you're saying that Bush is not a terrorist, because he was not as bad as Hitler?


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## José Herring (May 3, 2011)

bryla @ Tue May 03 said:


> Sorry about the misquote, basically what I was trying to say: To many people in other parts of the world George Bush and other 'allies' are just as much cancer as bin Laden/Al-Qaeda is to the US.
> 
> To me George Bush is just as much a terrorist as Bin Laden was. He is cancer, he killed many people around the world as well as Americans - through sloppy bureaucracy and neglecting his home country in honor of mammon.



There's a difference between stupid incompetence and a deliberate intent to kill. Plus the man you want his Dick Cheney not really George Bush. If you're strong enough to come in here and take him by force then I certainly wouldn't be shedding any tears. :mrgreen:


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## juliansader (May 3, 2011)

josejherring @ Tue 03 May said:


> Nah, most people thank God will never stoop the level of slaughtering 3000+ in cold blood. Would you not celebrate if you had cancer and killed it? After all cancer is made of living cells. I bet you'd have no problem celebrating the death of cancer.
> 
> Bin Laden has proven that he's a cancer to the human race. He needed to be stamped out and I have no moral dilemma what so ever being happy about it. Life is a gift. For most it's a chance to do some good. This guy was avowedly against all that's good in life. In my opinion he got off easy. A quick death is about all the humanity this guy deserved.
> 
> In the end though. It's been a tough long war. Celebrating a win, a victory of sorts, isn't all that barbaric. Plus in that bunker he had all the inner workings of Al-Qaeda. If we move swiftly we can capture or kill the entire lot. That will be a day worth celebrating.



I think this post accurately summarizes the feelings of most Americans (and many Europeans) who are celebrating Osama's death.

It is interesting to note that Hitler described the Jews in almost exactly the same terms: as a "cancer to the human race" that is "against all that is good in life". Accordingly, some Nazis concluded that it would be better to "kill the entire lot" and they thought they are doing something "worth celebrating".

Of course, Osama also thought of himself as the good guy that is fighting the evil Americans. And many people agreed with him. If you kiil the entire lot of people who avidly support Osama, you will end up slaughtering many more than 3000 people yourself.


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## jlb (May 3, 2011)

I think the fuss earlier on this thread about not celebrating that this animal is gone was ridiculous, he was cowering like a coward behind a 27 year old young woman. Damn good riddance to him.

jlb


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

bryla @ Tue May 03 said:


> "I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
> 
> -- Martin Luther King, Jr
> 
> ...



You are a brave man, to make these statements on the Internet. I know you visited New York recently. I suggest when you visit next, discuss your feelings about the victims of 9/11 with some New Yorkers. Personally, I would have slapped your face, and I havent been involved in anything violent in 40 years.


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## chimuelo (May 3, 2011)

Perhaps the Bush haters should go to Africa and ask how many hundreds of thousands of lives he saved with medicine and treatments.
Bono, the Pope and Bush actually did what the EU and UN couldn't agree on.

That doesn't get him off of the hook for thousands of our kids and and civilians that perished.
But hatred combined with love right....?
Love moving out the hatred and light replacing the dark....?
There's a little light on another sad American tragedy.


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## José Herring (May 3, 2011)

juliansader @ Tue May 03 said:


> josejherring @ Tue 03 May said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, most people thank God will never stoop the level of slaughtering 3000+ in cold blood. Would you not celebrate if you had cancer and killed it? After all cancer is made of living cells. I bet you'd have no problem celebrating the death of cancer.
> ...



Jeez, how daft can one be. Al-Qeada is a very small group. I'm not talking about people that are in support of what they are doing, I'm talking about going after the ones that are actually doing it. They're the cancer.

I know a few white supremest. I would never even dream of going after them. They can believe what they want to believe. They can hate me because I'm not white. Whatever. But, as soon as they move into the mass slaughter of minorities, I'm sorry, they deserve to be stamped out. Like a cancer.


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## Stevie (May 3, 2011)

This thread becomes uncivilized. I'm out.


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## Ashermusic (May 3, 2011)

juliansader @ Tue May 03 said:


> josejherring @ Tue 03 May said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, most people thank God will never stoop the level of slaughtering 3000+ in cold blood. Would you not celebrate if you had cancer and killed it? After all cancer is made of living cells. I bet you'd have no problem celebrating the death of cancer.
> ...



Once again, where the moral rubber meets the road is the killing of innocent people for no other reason than hatred and the desire to create terror. Hitler and the Nazis did, Truman did not. Bin Laden did, Bush, however misguided he may or may not have been, did not.

When you kill to defend people from harm or from losing their freedom, you are performing a highly moral act. I certainly do not advocate killing anyone simply for believing as Bin Laden did, only those who act on it.


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Tue May 03 said:


> Once again, where the moral rubber meets the road is the killing of innocent people for no other reason than hatred and the desire to create terror.



What innocent people? Thomas Bryla tells us the people who died on 9/11 were culpable. Financial/military targets.


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## bryla (May 3, 2011)

deleted.


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

Good plan.


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## JonFairhurst (May 3, 2011)

Let's apply the Global Ethics test and see how things balance out. We won't get a 5 out of 5 score, because this is an ethical dilemma - there is no simple, purely good, solution available

1) Honesty - We can only assume that the information is honest. Not all of the information is shared in order to avoid causing other problems. I give it a +1.

2) Fairness - Bin Laden took responsibility for numerous deaths. That he should die once without being tortured is more than fair. Again, +1.

3) Responsibility - The US government is responsible for US security according to the Constitution. Bin Laden was a clear security threat who had declared war on the US. Maybe it would have been more responsible to take him alive, but that would have put the security force at additional danger. +0.8.

4) Respect - The US buried bin Laden at sea within 24 hours in an attempt to be respectful. However, it acted within the borders of a sovereign country without notification. However, notification would have been irresponsible, since we don't know who in Pakistan might be protecting him. +0.7.

5) Compassion - This is compassionate for previous and possible future victims. It is compassionate for the people of the world who are against terrorism. It is not compassionate for bin Laden or his supporters. It is not compassionate for those who are 100% against killing. +0.7

I give it a 4.2 out of 5.0. Not only does this balance out in favor of the operation, none of the five measures came in at or near a zero. (Sometimes you can have a +4, but if there is a total blind spot in any one category, the act might be simply unethical.)

More than anything though, bin Laden put himself in this position. He chose the path of global terrorism and found the natural end of that path.


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## lux (May 3, 2011)

nevermind


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

lux @ Tue May 03 said:


> Completely off topic: does anyone else think photos of corpse shouldnt be published? I got two young kids and i'm horrified by the idea of them catchin a [email protected]#kin TV News by accident and see a guy with half the head gone away. That fake photo was all over the place online and on TV, even being a fake it gives the idea of how nobody cares about the type of images they publish.
> 
> I think this thing is becoming goreish and really really brutal. Publishing everywhere photos of killed corpses looks like a terrible, terrible downfall of humanity.



As I posted before, I do not 'celebrate' the death of anyone, not even murderous bastards like Bin Laden. If I had young children now, I would not want them to see pictures of a bullet ridden corpse. Sadly for us all, we don't control the Internet. I hope the government does not release them.

On the other hand, I wouldn't have wanted my 11 year old son and my wife to live through the fears of 9/11 and the post 9/11 world in NYC either-which in case no one noticed, are ongoing. There are people here who never even got the courtesy of a corpse to bury and never got closure as a result.


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## JonFairhurst (May 3, 2011)

Publication of the photos wins on the honesty scale, but loses on the responsibility, respect, and compassion categories. I say don't publish. If somebody doesn't believe that bin Laden is dead, that's their choice. Public perception on this topic won't change anything. Dead is dead.

Bin Laden might continue to give out pre-recorded, pre-distributed instructions from the grave. That sucks. And publishing photos won't make any difference to those who still want to hear his message.


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## José Herring (May 3, 2011)

If they don't publish Donald Trump will come on TV and say that Osama and Obama are now sharing a love bungalow in their native land of Kenya.

Honestly, I don't want to see photos. I believe he's dead. But the conspiracy nuts are already sharpening their pencils. Any day they'll start demanding photos plus a long form death certificate.


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## lux (May 3, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Tue May 03 said:


> lux @ Tue May 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Completely off topic: does anyone else think photos of corpse shouldnt be published? I got two young kids and i'm horrified by the idea of them catchin a [email protected]#kin TV News by accident and see a guy with half the head gone away. That fake photo was all over the place online and on TV, even being a fake it gives the idea of how nobody cares about the type of images they publish.
> ...



-


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

lux @ Tue May 03 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue May 03 said:
> 
> 
> > lux @ Tue May 03 said:
> ...



And I said I agree with you.


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## lux (May 3, 2011)

nevermind


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

lux @ Tue May 03 said:


> i know, but i sincerely thought your "other hand" was unrelated and a bit uncalled for. No comparison has been done or asked for by me. I feel just worried for my kids.



And I'm not? You worry about your kids seeing something bad. I worry about mine being blown up. You don't like what I have to say, ignore it.


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## lux (May 3, 2011)

nevermind


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## NYC Composer (May 3, 2011)

Luca-I have plenty of reason, which I doubt you're interested in, but I agree to end this part here. If you ever ARE interested, you could either read the rest of the thread, or PM me. I'd be happy to explain.


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## lux (May 3, 2011)

For language limitation reasons i think we cannot carry this complex discussion at best. I agree with ending it part here.

I also edited my posts as i dont want to be quoted or put into the discussion (or hatery) again by someone else


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## choc0thrax (May 3, 2011)

Pics or it didn't happen. Swift burial....at sea.... fishy. Pun intended to the max.


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## Ed (May 3, 2011)

bryla @ Tue May 03 said:


> deleted.



Well I'm in the UK and you said:

"why the notion that the 3000 killed in 9/11 were completely innocent victims"

The idea that they were somehow less "innocent" because they worked in the WTC is ridiculous, which implies that they somehow are asking for it more than someone who doesn't. The idea that their deaths is the same as our armed forces deaths is ridiculous. When you go into the armed forces to you accept that you could be put in harms way, its war, people die, you understand that.

I think you have a legitimate point to make somewhere in your post, but you're going to have to do better than this.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 3, 2011)

> Honestly, I don't want to see photos. I believe he's dead. But the conspiracy nuts are already sharpening their pencils.



The day we let those stupid assholes dictate public policy will mark the end of Western Civilization.


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## Jaap (May 4, 2011)

chimuelo @ Tue May 03 said:


> Perhaps the Bush haters should go to Africa and ask how many hundreds of thousands of lives he saved with medicine and treatments.
> Bono, the Pope and Bush actually did what the EU and UN couldn't agree on.
> 
> That doesn't get him off of the hook for thousands of our kids and and civilians that perished.
> ...



Bit offtopic:

I am not a bush fan, nor hater, I think that subject of who is wrong and good is a whole lot more complicated and as we see here, it's hard to be discussed via sources such as internet. 
Just for the record to get some stats correct concerning Aid Donations: The US is giving 0,25 (highest average) of there Gross National Income, while my country gives 0,81 (same as Denmark). Most European Countries give more on that scale then the US. 
Get your marks straight before pointing fingers.

I know Bush did a lot of private investments, which are good, not denying his contribution. My point is that that European countries, companies and private donors are as active as anywhere.


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## chimuelo (May 4, 2011)

Sure, everybody is involved now.

Bush, not being aware of the size of the pandemic, first gave 200 million which was basically underfunding it.
My point being that once he really began to understand the Pandemics potential it was those guys who made everyone put their money where their mouth was.
Private investment was also what got the Governments to stop dragging their feet.

The UN red tape during Ruanda is why American leaders get worked up. Bush and even Clinton would try their hand at the UN, and then just back door the process.

Didn't mean to offend my brethren from across the pond, but sometimes it seemed that our citizens and certain Governments hated Bush so much, that it clouded their objectivity.


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## José Herring (May 4, 2011)

This is the kind of message the killing of Bin Laden is sending al-quada:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110504/ts_yblog_theenvoy/al-qaeda-member-surrenders-saudi-arabia-says (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/ ... rabia-says)

Anybody who isn't just happy that this bastard went down is missing the big picture.


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## madbulk (May 4, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 04 said:


> Again: Bin Laden was a POS and I'm glad they found him - and that he wasn't captured alive, because the circus would have been really bad. Dumping his body right away was also the right move, because it would have become [email protected]#t to flies in no time.
> 
> But dancing in the streets - and chanting USA USA USA - bothers me. The whole situation is terribly sad, not a sporting event.



Sums it up well for me too.


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## George Caplan (May 5, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 04 said:


> But dancing in the streets - and chanting USA USA USA - bothers me. The whole situation is terribly sad, not a sporting event.



the chanting in the streets when the two towers went down also bothered me.


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## Mick Emery (May 5, 2011)

In this whole scenario of terror there are 2 types of participants, the unwilling & the willing. The unwilling participants were traveling on planes, trains, buses & at work. The consequences of their actions should not have necessarily resulted in death.

bin Laden was a willing participant. He was well aware that acts of terrorism could result in his death. He chose to participate. Anyone who is shocked at his death is probably more so than he was. This is how it is. We must all learn to accept the consequences of our actions, and they are not always warm & fuzzy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 5, 2011)

Ah, thanks for straightening me out, George. It hadn't occurred to me that it's good to act like a moron if other people do.

***

With the caveat that the following article is not worth reading (yes it also occurred to me that you'd never know Obama is the leader from that picture, but everything else in the article is stupid)...however: does this mean there's live video of the whole thing?

Hey, I don't just want dead OBL porn pix, I want the video! Kill kill kill! USA USA USA!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/05/iconic ... tml?hpt=C1


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## Guy Bacos (May 5, 2011)

I wished they hadn't killed him. He didn't suffer, I would of liked to see him caught and then suffer.


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## Audun Jemtland (May 8, 2011)

For those of you that have followed the story over the years,osama have been confirmed dead 9 times...this is the ninth. 

What makes him more dead now than the previous times?
And why is it that almost everyone believes everything that they hear?

Middle east was chanting over the fake dead picture.

Americans screaming usa usa usa over something they've been told happened.
If you haven't seen the man or greeted him yourself, he doesn't even exist.


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## Mick Emery (May 8, 2011)

> If you haven't seen the man or greeted him yourself, he doesn't even exist.


I've never seen or greeted you...


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## maraskandi (May 8, 2011)

Well if he's still alive he'd probably post a video saying something like:

"Look, the Americans are lying to you all, they are a bunch of liars like I say time and time again. They are trying to deceive you, this proves that they are dishonest infidels."

How anyone can take pleasure in forcing their views and morality on others, no matter who they might be, is beyond me. 

Still, I can't help but be a music-nazi every now and then:

"No that's crap middle-of the road noisy twoddle! This......however, is cool, conscious, spiritual, etc"


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## Ashermusic (May 8, 2011)

audun jemtland @ Sun May 08 said:


> For those of you that have followed the story over the years,osama have been confirmed dead 9 times...this is the ninth.
> 
> What makes him more dead now than the previous times?



How about the fact that Al Qaeda confirmed it on Al Jazzera?


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## JohnG (May 8, 2011)

It's Al Jazeera -- Jazz era was something else (har har).

Here's the link:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middl ... 11287.html


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## Audun Jemtland (May 8, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Sun May 08 said:


> audun jemtland @ Sun May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > For those of you that have followed the story over the years,osama have been confirmed dead 9 times...this is the ninth.
> ...



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## CFDG (May 8, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Wed May 04 said:


> Seems they've decided they are not going to release the photo.



Wrong.


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## Pando (May 9, 2011)

Watching TV


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## Ed (May 9, 2011)

audun jemtland @ Sun May 08 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > audun jemtland @ Sun May 08 said:
> ...



Well the only way your CT could be remotely logical (and I say that in the loosest possible sence) is if we first assume Bin Laden was either already dead or never lived to begin with. 

Since if he wasn't killed and America are lying, then he can just stand up and say he is alive, how embarrasing that would be.


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## StrangeCat (May 12, 2011)

you guys crack me up but here is the true story because I am nice.

http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011 ... illed.html


In a Galaxy far far away...oh wait in a country far far away....


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