# Thomas J VI Magazine Piece



## Colin O'Malley (Aug 1, 2006)

This is mastery. If you told me Williams wrote and recorded this I would believe you. Really really great stuff. 

Colin

http://www.virtualinstrumentsmag.com/down/6-7-06/From_Sketch_to%20Score/Mojo_Madness.mp3 (http://www.virtualinstrumentsmag.com/do ... adness.mp3)


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

Yeah, that guy rips off John Williams better than anyone else. Sounds like he cut and pasted the Ewok Battle into Duel of the Fates.

On another note, if that's a virtual orchestra then we can all just stop now....it has been achieved. lol....there's no way that that's not live....if it isn't I will eat my hand right now.
-Jamey


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## ComposerDude (Aug 1, 2006)

I agree with Colin. I've said before and will repeat here that TJ could well be the next John Williams. Wonderful work!

@Jamey - are you saying that the themes are ripoffs of these other pieces? Or just that TJ has nailed Williams' stylistic conventions?

-Peter


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 1, 2006)

its samples..

Hand look yummy yet?


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

I wouldn't say that there are necessarily any themes here, more motivic devices, which, yes are directly from those pieces.


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> its samples..
> 
> Hand look yummy yet?



Prove it.


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## Colin O'Malley (Aug 1, 2006)

Remember the first piece Thomas posted on NS years ago? Ah, good times. 

It is incredible how well Thomas can capture the William's spirit. That is just a small part of what he can do though. 

Colin


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## Sovereign (Aug 1, 2006)

A shame the entire score is not available.

I doubt these are samples tho, sounds like a real recording to me.


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## José Herring (Aug 1, 2006)

Yeah. I'd like to know. Those can't be samples, can they?

If they are then I need to eat more Wheaties or something and get to work earlier. 'Cause if he's doing that with samples then we can say goodbye to the live orchestra because it won't be long before Hollywood producers find out.

José


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

A couple steps back find this article on the piece:



> From Sketch to Score
> by Thomas J. Bergersen
> Translating sequenced music to a score for live players presents some unique challenges. The highly skilled young composer Thomas J—who’s also unparalleled orchestral MIDI programming -- goes over his process doing that, offering pointers along the way....



so, this is live. Though, you can tell that within the first 10 notes 
An amazing copycat, to be sure! The thing I can't understand is who funds recording sessions with the obvious intention of sounding exactly like John Williams? Is this for a Star Wars animation or something that Williams couldn't do?


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## José Herring (Aug 1, 2006)

When I was in my 20ies I use to record live players just for the experience. Maybe that's the case here. I would just fund it out of my own pockets not really realizing that that's a good way to go broke. :oops:


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

josejherring @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> When I was in my 20ies I use to record live players just for the experience. Maybe that's the case here. I would just fund it out of my own pockets not really realizing that that's a good way to go broke. :oops:



nonono....this is not a collection of live players out of some dudes pocket. That recording is dripping with money. That's the top hollywood orchestra right there....Prague or Bratslavia simply ain't up for that kind of gig.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 1, 2006)

Thomas could just become rich by organizing workshops for us mortals... :shock:


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 1, 2006)

eh Im sure TJ will answer you soon enough.


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## José Herring (Aug 1, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> eh Im sure TJ will answer you soon enough.



If that's samples I will eat iocomposers left hand. :shock:


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

no fair!


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## ComposerDude (Aug 1, 2006)

To the relief of Jamey's hands, and the disappointment of our cannibalistic composing brethren, there MAY be a live orchestra version of this cue as well as a MIDI version. I asked Nick Batzdorf (VI Magazine) and he'll track this down when he gets a free moment, if TJ hasn't already clarified it for us by then.

In either case it's a credit to TJ that some of us think his MIDI work could be as good as live orchestra.

-Peter


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 1, 2006)

well to make the lie legit youd have to import the live performance into your sampler-than re-record it.

hehe THAN itd be a custom lib.


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## JacquesMathias (Aug 1, 2006)

Incredible amazing job! But i guess they are samples........


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## JacquesMathias (Aug 1, 2006)

Listen again....maybe it's not samples....hehehe

It looks like the trumpets were recorded and anything else is samples...Who knows?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 1, 2006)

AFAIK, it's all GPO.


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

Colin O'Malley @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> This is mastery. If you told me Williams wrote and recorded this I would believe you. Really really great stuff.
> 
> Colin
> 
> http://www.virtualinstrumentsmag.com/down/6-7-06/From_Sketch_to%20Score/Mojo_Madness.mp3 (http://www.virtualinstrumentsmag.com/do ... adness.mp3)



I brought this up ages ago! Shows how many people have read my posts :D I wondered why no one was talking about it.


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 1, 2006)




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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

Evan the pic is broken,


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

ComposerDude @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> To the relief of Jamey's hands, and the disappointment of our cannibalistic composing brethren, there MAY be a live orchestra version of this cue as well as a MIDI version. I asked Nick Batzdorf (VI Magazine) and he'll track this down when he gets a free moment, if TJ hasn't already clarified it for us by then.
> 
> In either case it's a credit to TJ that some of us think his MIDI work could be as good as live orchestra.
> 
> -Peter



Well I say this version is sampled. Ive heard amazing things by TJ before, maybe some others here see a massive leap in quality, and while I see a leap from what Ive heard before its not as great as impossible for me to imagine.

We shall see!


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

lol. You show me a string library that can do those kinds of runs, then I'll believe that this could be samples...but no...then there's the brass....no library out there that can do that. The fluidity of the flutes/piccolos. It's all the shit in between the notes...not to mention the overall fidelity and sound of a large orchestra recorded in a big room with high-end gear. My offer still stands....prove this is not live and I'll eat my right hand...no ketchup!


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

> ol. You show me a string library that can do those kinds of runs, then I'll believe that this could be samples...


*IOcomposer*: you know PP has recorded runs right? Listen to his VSL french oboe demo you can hear them there too.



> not to mention the overall fidelity and sound of a large orchestra recorded in a big room with high-end gear



TJ has always been great with balencing his samples. And when I say great I mean meticulous.



> prove this is not live and I'll eat my right hand...no ketchup!



Good. If it is indeed live, I expect pics.


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

Ed @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> *IOcomposer*: you know PP has recorded runs right? Listen to his VSL french oboe demo you can hear them there too.



No, I know nothing about PP. What is it? Where can I hear it? Where is this french oboe demo?


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

iocomposer @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> No, I know nothing about PP. What is it?



hehe. So this is probably the reason why you cant imagine Mojo being samples  

Its a private sample library which at least a few guys Maarten, Craig Sharmat, Simon Ravn have. It was recorded it Prague, hence the nick name PP for Project Prague

If you want a good show of PP go to Maartens site:
http://www.maartenspruijt.com/music_01.html



> Where can I hear it? Where is this french oboe demo?



Its called The Clockworkers Guild and its at the VSL site, go to Horizen products and find the French Oboe demos. Its there. 

http://vsl.co.at/en-us/211/215/161.vsl

After youve heard all of this, do you think its still implausible to think Mojo Madness is sampled?

But if by some chance it isnt, it would be interesting to hear the sampled version.

Ed


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## JacquesMathias (Aug 1, 2006)

*Hey guys...*

This guy TomasJ, he's VERY good balancing orchestral samples, making mockups. When i say VERY GOOD i say, REALLY VERY GOOD. He knows what he's writing, he knows like write to orchestra and he knows how to achieve great mixes. Let's be humble. If he says it's samples, i will surely believe. :wink: Let's recognize the talent of this guy, because, he's VERY talented. One of the most talented composers i've heard. I hope be able to compose like him someday, i'm working on it.

Congrats Tomas. You deserve.


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

Nobody is knocking Thomas' talent. We've all been floored by him for many, many years....myself included. That's not what's at issue here at all.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

Hmm I already made a thread about this a while ago. I don't think this is real. If you've ever heard Thomas' music that isn't done with public sample libs you'd understand how real his stuff can be. I don't remember what the ewok battle sounds like but if you cut out some of Williams Revenge of the Sith score and dropped in Mojo Madness during an Anakin VS Obiwan duel noone would notice.


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

Ed,
Yeah, I see this PP library is pretty amazing. It sounds fantatstic, for sure. Wish I had it, in fact. However, I heard no strings as fluid and precise as with Thomas' piece. Even if it were canned performances, I still don't believe those strings are coming out of a sampler.


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## JacquesMathias (Aug 1, 2006)

iocomposer @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Nobody is knocking Thomas' talent. We've all been floored by him for many, many years....myself included. That's not what's at issue here at all.




I've been listening his job for many years too :smile: I know, its not the issue here. I just wanted say: "hey he can do it with samples!"


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

iocomposer @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Ed,
> Yeah, I see this PP library is pretty amazing. It sounds fantatstic, for sure. Wish I had it, in fact. However, I heard no strings as fluid and precise as with Thomas' piece. Even if it were canned performances, I still don't believe those strings are coming out of a sampler.



Did you listen to the VSL Clockmakers Guild demo? Thats got lots of runs and trills etc.

But how do you not know he jsut didnt spend more time on this piece? TJ has always said he doesnt spend very long on sample library demos whenever I asked about them. And Maarten as good as he is is still not as good with samples as TJ.

I know I will look foolish if it turns out to be real, :smile: but if you listen carefully the repeated string notes do have a samply quality to them. You have to listen hard though...

He relatively recently posted a Mexican piece to NS he said he did before he had PP and at first I thought it was all live but then I noticed QLSO in there. So thats why I think this is sampled.

EDIT: I also once had a link to some (admittedly low streaming quality) library music that I thought was live, but according to TJ he did it years ago with VSL and QLSO! Choco probably still has the link.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 1, 2006)

Samples, most of it PP

bon appeitte


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

Well, I have to get back to my work....it's been fun. I still think it's live. 
Cheers,
Jamey


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 1, 2006)

hope you don't need to use the mod wheel.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

Which hand is it gonna be?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 1, 2006)

Ed @ 1/8/2006 said:


> He relatively recently posted a Mexican piece to NS he said he did before he had PP and at first I thought it was all live but then I noticed QLSO in there. So thats why I think this is sampled.



Here's the link: http://home.online.no/~finjaco/mex.mp3

Great stuff, as usual.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

Oh and I can't believe I still don't have that issue of VI. I got the sheet music, just not the mag. D.J if you are reading this, did you ever find a copy of the magazine anywhere?


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

Craig Sharmat @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Samples, most of it PP
> 
> bon appeitte



hehehehehehehee. sorry IO, I guess your dinners gonna be Ketchup.


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

er....um...figure of speech? 

Craig, if you say it's samples, then I believe you, cuz I'm sure you'd know....are you SURE?????


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## Damon (Aug 1, 2006)

TJ is not of this world (lol). Blown away as always Thomas :wink:


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

I think this begs the question, will Audio Impressions sound better than this?

Remember that PP doesnt have any of these fancy gimmics that Audio Impressions has. As far as I know its almost a traditonal approach compared to them.


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Here's the link: http://home.online.no/~finjaco/mex.mp3
> 
> Great stuff, as usual.



Thanks Ned. Question is, is this a live trumpet? I guess it is becuase he only sampled it recently I presume. 

Actually TJ never said this piece was samples that I recall, he said it was one of his "concert pieces". Thats why it took me a while to notice the samples. The harp gave it away the most I think.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

iocomposer @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> er....um...figure of speech?
> 
> Craig, if you say it's samples, then I believe you, cuz I'm sure you'd know....are you SURE?????



Are you new to Thomas' music?


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

Peter Roos @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> In the mean time, let's focus on cannibalism :lol:



And I demand IO show us pics!


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

Ed @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> I think this begs the question, will Audio Impressions sound better than this?
> 
> Remember that PP doesnt have any of these fancy gimmics that Audio Impressions has. As far as I know its almost a traditonal approach compared to them.



Someone should ask them in the question thread if their product will be able to compete with this.


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Someone should ask them in the question thread if their product will be able to compete with this.



Isnt it really the most important question you could ask? If the answers no, whats the gimmics for?


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> iocomposer @ Tue Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > er....um...figure of speech?
> ...



no....just haven't really been paying attention for a while


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

Ed @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Someone should ask them in the question thread if their product will be able to compete with this.
> ...



But of course we already know the answer. Although it doesn't have to be as good to sell well. Gonna be a long time before there's a super amazing library out of the box, so much of the greatness of Thomas' pieces is because it's Thomas making them.


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

What brand of ketchup would you like to eat IO? :razz:


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

oy! bows down...in humility....you are truly the master, Thomas. 

Eating hand now....ouch!

-Ja....


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

iocomposer @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Eating hand now....ouch!



Pics or stfu.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 1, 2006)

Many of the ideas behind PP were TJ's. He figured out what sampling devices were needed to pull off what he wanted to do. With the advancment in technology and TJ's ability to program, he has uped the level of PP since it was first edited and recorded. TJ's template will be far more advanced than mine by this time. to those who see this as samples can now replace orchestra, the answer is probably yes...if you are TJ.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 1, 2006)

Thomas_J @ 1/8/2006 said:


> It was composed in roughly a day...


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## kid-surf (Aug 1, 2006)

This seems like as a good a time as any to say this....


As much as the rest of you guys insist that TJ is the next JW, I think he's got a long way to go yet. I've said before that I'm not such a fan of JW's music (although I know he's great). But there is an emotional connection that TJ hasn't matured into yet, IMO. JW is far past TJ in that regard alone. 

Yet, TJ is good at getting the mechanics of JW fairly close. But it takes more than that to move me, no matter the stylings. Strip it down to the melody and themes of JW and it's clear to me what separates the two. 

I'm just not ready to put TJ on a pedestal (yet), but I do respect his talent... and feel he'll probably find his own voice at some point. 

This is my "opinion" as someone who has no interest in sounding like JW but respects his "entire" level of mastery... (not just the mechanics --- in fact, I doubt mechanics are even a concern of JW. Surly it's all about emotional impact at this point for the man.)

(Ok... now feel free to tell me how crazy I am... but I'm pretty stubborn in my beliefs.  )

No offense, Thomas... that's just the way I see/hear it. Nice cue though.


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## JacquesMathias (Aug 1, 2006)

Well, thanks for your response Tomas! 

It means i'm not deaf yet. It's samples. But, sounding like an orchestra...hehe

You are very very good dude!  

Best!


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## Ed (Aug 1, 2006)

Kid he did this in a day, a day! I would love to know what his music sounds like when he actually spends a long time on it!


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## Sovereign (Aug 1, 2006)

Thomas_J @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> Yes, I'm guilty as charged for trying to sound like Williams  Of course he is and always will be a major source of inspiration. I regard heavily influenced pieces like this as composition/orchestration exercises. I'm young, inexperienced and still developing my own unique voice. Meanwhile I've found that there are no better ways of learning than to try and copy the great masters, sprinkling it with a bit of your own personality along the way. The piece is indeed nothing serious, although in my defense far from a complete ripoff of any existing music (at least to my knowledge)  It was composed in roughly a day to serve as an example in my Virtual Instruments Magazine article. The music was realized using custom libraries & Truestrike. No phrases except for measured tremolos in strings.
> 
> Cheers!


Hi Thomas,

I take it then that there's no full pdf score available?


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## kid-surf (Aug 1, 2006)

ED, Yeah... but see, what could JW do in half a day? He may be able to move me in 5 notes.

Like I said, I respect the talent TJ has. He's clearly talented. 

What he can do in a day isn't entirely the point for "me". I predict he'll find his own voice at some point and that I'll then feel like it's a more sincere music -vs- trying to pay homage. I'd be curious what advice JW himself would give Thomas. I believe JW would suggest to him to focus on emotional qualities, and perhaps push him out of the nest a bit.

Yes, putting words in William's mouth.... Really it's just a hunch. It's just that I think thomas is gonna have to break free of Williams at some point if he wants to be taken as his own man, and ultimately achieve the "greats" status. I think he can do it, don't get me wrong.

***Disclaimer --- I can't do that in a day. But that's beside the point.


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 1, 2006)

Well JW notates 2 minutes of action music a day. 

Tj just wrote AND sequenced over that.

When JW was 25 I think he was doing like an Episode of Gilligans island here and there, or playing piano for Bernard Hermann during the golden era of hollywood.

Not writing music this complex.


But as TJ said this was more of an excercise, not too be taken seriously. Personally so far I've really tried to avoid studying others to that extent (just from being afraid of not having an original voice ever)..but that might be why I'm not even close to the standards I want to be. Or that I'm just 19? I dunno.


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## kid-surf (Aug 1, 2006)

So then maybe it's time for the next step.......




BTW --- I'm just trying to offer Thomas advice as someone who hears something "more" in the music of his idol. If he already knows this, then cool. Maybe he hasn't thought about it much.

All I see is people telling him how great he is, true, he's very good. But I still see something missing. So I'm pointing it out this once, and he can decide if It has any merit to him. If he decides he doesn't agree with me, no prob.

Well, I don't study his music (or anyone else's) with a fine toothed comb. I just listen , when I feel like listening to someone's work, and my gut tells me stuff..........


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

kid-surf @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> ED, Yeah... but see, what could JW do in half a day? He may be able to move me in 5 notes.
> 
> Like I said, I respect the talent TJ has. He's clearly talented.
> 
> ...



You've only heard a very small portion of Thomas' music, i'm sure it's not all JW sounding.


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## Pando (Aug 1, 2006)

Thomas, you are the master. No doubt about it. You have a gift, as a whole package, that very few people (if any) have. I really admire your composing skills though, which will take you very far.

btw, I'm also in love with your recent Japanese pieces, they sound absolutely awesome...!

(for crying out loud, please get your website going! You've been promising for a l o n g time...) :D


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Well JW notates 2 minutes of action music a day.
> 
> Tj just wrote AND sequenced over that.
> 
> ...



Not studying others work? Even I do that and i'm lazy.  IMO that's kinda important.


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## Niah (Aug 1, 2006)

Thomas, 

Out of curiosity where does the choir that you use in your pieces comes from? Is it also custom? Commercial? Both?

Thanks


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## Evan Gamble (Aug 1, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Evan Gamble @ Tue Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Well JW notates 2 minutes of action music a day.
> ...



Ive got tons of scores/books-and i study them alot. I just try and forget about it when i write.

Kind of like what kid said.

My favorite composers are those that you can recongnize imediantly, and thats what I want to be and TRY for with what most i write.


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## kid-surf (Aug 1, 2006)

True... 

Maybe he focuses on the JW sound mostly for his demos? Like I said, if what I said doesn't apply to his sensibilities, he should just disregard it. 

But I'm making a more universal point at the same time anyway...... 

ok gotta run...

cheers


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## choc0thrax (Aug 1, 2006)

Evan Gamble @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Evan Gamble @ Tue Aug 01 said:
> ...



I don't try to forget anything i've studied, I try not to think at all actually.  Then I notice everytime I write something that I don't hate it turns out I accidentally copied it from somewhere! haha :(


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## iocomposer (Aug 1, 2006)

I agree with Kid to a degree here. I mean, we're all just sort of drifting along, doing our thing when the opportunities arise. Sometimes we're inspired enough or emotionally charged enough to tap into something that is moving or exciting, whatever. As artists, it is the make up of our life experiences that moves us to make great music...not the mastery of technical achievements. Someone with half of Thomas' talents could move me emotionally because of a delicate sensitivity and approach to each note, whereas Thomas could only excite me technically. A lot of times the effect is wholly contextual. For example, I get choked up listening to Shostikovich's later works because I knew about the political ramifications of these compositions. 

I will say, however, that I have NEVER EVER been moved emotionally by a sampled score. I've been RARELY moved excitedly by a sample score...though I was defintely affected by this one. 

We're all just evolving along....Some of us have more opportunities than others, some more talent than others, some more technical aptitude than others...etc. I've done some great stuff in my time and continue to try to consistantly tap into what is true for me. Though I may not have as much talent as Thomas or Kid, or whoever, I've got enough for what I need to say and that continues to evolve. I think that's all we can all really strive for.

Thomas is a good example of someone following his path and that's a great thing to see! Keep it up Thomas... as with all you jokers 

cheers,
Jamey


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 1, 2006)

kid-surf @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> This seems like as a good a time as any to say this....
> As much as the rest of you guys insist that TJ is the next JW, I think he's got a long way to go yet. I've said before that I'm not such a fan of JW's music (although I know he's great). But there is an emotional connection that TJ hasn't matured into yet, IMO. JW is far past TJ in that regard alone.
> Yet, TJ is good at getting the mechanics of JW fairly close. But it takes more than that to move me, no matter the stylings. Strip it down to the melody and themes of JW and it's clear to me what separates the two.
> I'm just not ready to put TJ on a pedestal (yet), but I do respect his talent... and feel he'll probably find his own voice at some point.
> ...



Kid, don't mind me saying this as well:
I think you have too much ego to praise the talent of any of your peers.
Or at least that's the impression I have gotten reading your posts over the years...

Like it or not TJ is light years ahead of you.
But then, luckily, music is also a personal thing and we all have something to contribute.
In your case, a tad of modesty would go a long way...


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## kid-surf (Aug 1, 2006)

BTW--- since I'm already on the hot seat. 


I think too many composers (here) focus on the "sound" and "realism" of music rather than the way it makes us feel. They'll focus on the how good the "tool" is doing at fooling them into thinking it real. 



Off the top of my head, the last piece of music that made me "feel" something recently here was by AlexW. Yet I felt the line didn't work, so I said so. But that's the last thing I 'really' liked that I've heard here.

The last scores I liked were JNH "Lady In The Water". And before that John Powell blew me away with X3. Both scores made me feel something. (and they were well written)

Maybe I look at film music as having a different purpose than some. Cause for me it's about an emotional connection, not about who can make the mock-up sound the most real, or what tools work the best, or what strings sound the best or any of that.


Cheers...


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## José Herring (Aug 1, 2006)

Thomas_J @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> It was composed in roughly a day to serve as an example in my Virtual Instruments Magazine article. The music was realized using custom libraries & Truestrike. No phrases except for measured tremolos in strings.
> 
> Cheers!



Oh my. :o


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 1, 2006)

John Williams has often moved me - very often. He is a God...

But some of his action music is not particularily moving (emotionally) - just great action music. And IMHO this peice rivals a lot of JW's action music - so much that I would bet no one would raise an eyebrow if this peice was in one of his scores. No one would say "hey - it's not as good as his other action music"...

Very good work Thomas.

Whats most depressing is I could never write anything like this, even if I had a month! :D 

Maybe some day


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## Damon (Aug 2, 2006)

TJ, give me your PP samples or I will hunt you down :twisted: (LOL!). Listened to the composition again and I am really floored by the orchestration and samples you have.
I think if Zimmer heard your stuff and private sample collection he would be quite impressed obviously!
GO FOR IT DUDE!!!!!!!!!!


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## Waywyn (Aug 2, 2006)

Damn, heard this before, but sometimes I feel like killing that bastard!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## lux (Aug 2, 2006)

Craig Sharmat @ Tue Aug 01 said:


> Alex W @ Tue Aug 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Alright that does it, Thomas. Guys... you're making me pull out the big guns!
> ...



i had to do as well, and i think I will not feel the same man anymore...


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## PaulR (Aug 2, 2006)

I think this is a good sound. So very few people have the midi skills to make something sound as good as this does. Great piece for looking at orchestration and key changes.

However.

This does not sound completely like JW - it has anything from JW, Bernstein, Silvestri right through to Tchaikovsky going on in there. When I get othe end of it, all I want to say is ' and all because the lady loves Milk Tray'.

This issue with the sample PP thing. Is this library commercially available? No. Well if it isn't available (i.e. for sale) any talk of it on a board like this could be construed as totally redundant.

Everybody knows that to get that sound whereby they have to get it through commercially available sample libraries (especially the string desks) - they are still waiting. 

Plus very good midi skills too of course.


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## Rodney Glenn (Aug 2, 2006)

First of all, excellent work Thomas. :smile:

Second...John Williams or not, a great composer is a great composer and IMHO I think Thomas has the right stuff.

It's not about putting anyone on a pedestal, but to recognize talent, potential and (not to be forgotten) dedication and hard work.

Thomas clearly pointed out that this was an orchestral excercise and that JW was the "study" subject...just as Williams probably did in his early days with the old Russian masters, Mahler, Holst, Korngold and so on. Older great composers will influence newer ones as they grow. Many of us happen to think that JW is one of the greatest composers of our time, so of course he is a big influence on others.

Besides, I think it's only fair to judge a piece according to what it was intended to do. Everyone is free to feel that the composition lacks a strong melodic theme and so on, but then you're also assuming that you've heard the composers full potential and that his intention was to use strong melodic themes in the first place...which might not at all be the case.

I think Thomas created an excellent "JW style" composition and although there can and ever will be only one John Williams, there can be more than one great composers.

Thomas strikes me as a hard working talented perfectionist with a very good ear and perhaps more importantly, as a really nice, humble and kindhearted guy. IMHO, if anyone has the potential to make it bigtime it's him. Equally, if anyone deserves it, it's him. 

Just my 2 cents.

Thank's for the inspiration Thomas. 

Cheers

Rodney


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

PaulR @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> This does not sound completely like JW - it has anything from JW, Bernstein, Silvestri right through to Tchaikovsky going on in there.


So JW never sounds like Tchaikovsky?! :lol: I didnt hear any tricks in there that I hadent heard JW do before. I think its quite picky to say it doesnt sound completely like JW. If it was in some SW score I doubt you'd question it.



> This issue with the sample PP thing. Is this library commercially available? No. Well if it isn't available (i.e. for sale) any talk of it on a board like this could be construed as totally redundant.



Its not redundant AT ALL. Its very *very *relevant. 

Look at Audio Impressions, they are relying on their fancy gimmics and their technology to make their library good. But if it turns out it doesnt sound a good as PP then we KNOW their approach isnt the best way to make an orchestral sample library. PP doesnt have individual strings or instruments to make up ensembles, but listen to the sound, it still sounds great! 

PP and TJs mockups mockups shows the potential of orchestral sampling, and probably the best in the world. Without that I think we wouldnt believe any of this is possible. For commercial developers, PP is a bar to beat. Thats why we should talk about PP all the time and throw it in their faces. We demand sample libraries to sound this good. . . dang it!  

Ed


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## lux (Aug 2, 2006)

Ed @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> > This issue with the sample PP thing. Is this library commercially available? No. Well if it isn't available (i.e. for sale) any talk of it on a board like this could be construed as totally redundant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is only partly true Ed. Actually no one could benefit from discussions around PP, for the main reason there's a specific agreement between PP members to not divulgate anything about how it was registered, mic'ed or whatever. So, in my opinion, the most high moment a PP discussion can reach still remains just into the field of (even deserved) "wow" comments. 

I would not say that this could change or move really anything technically in the sample world actually though.

Btw, I would also consider that we have PP examples just taken from very good mockupers (those who where there to record the lib), I never heard a PP composition done from noobies or un-talented people. Who knows, maybe it would sound like a Gm module...

Luca


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

lux @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> This is only partly true Ed. Actually no one could benefit from discussions around PP, for the main reason there's a specific agreement between PP members to not divulgate anything about how it was registered, mic'ed or whatever. So, in my opinion, the most high moment a PP discussion can reach still remains just into the field of (even deserved) "wow" comments.



Does it matter? The point is, whatever they did is the best way of doing things. Just think how much better it would have sounded if they had a gazillion dollar budget like Audio Impressions had? 

It doesnt matter if we dont know HOW they did it, we KNOW they did it. Thats the most important thing. So commercial developers should spend a long time thinking about how to get a similar sound, and why eveyrthing else just doesnt sound as good. Eventually I think they'll crack it. We know PP isnt "perfect" thats why it sounds do good. We know they had a brilliant engineer so a really good sound is very important. And we know they developed some recording techniques to make the samples to sound more musical. I think if commercial developers really wanted to do it they could eventually figure it out. 



> I would not say that this could change or move really anything technically in the sample world actually though.



Why not? I doubt anyone is better at mockups than TJ, he raises the bar for everyone. But he has also shown what sample technology is capable of. Without TJ and PP, the bar would be significantly lower both in what we expect from sample libraries, and what we believe is possible with sampled mockups. We know whats "possible" with a really good sample library and with a really good mockup. How would we have known that on our own?



> Btw, I would also consider that we have PP examples just taken from very good mockupers (those who where there to record the lib), I never heard a PP composition done from noobies or un-talented people. Who knows, maybe it would sound like a Gm module...



Of course, out of all the people that use PP TJ is the best. But I have heard TJs stuff with QLSO and VSL and this is still _significantly _better. 

Ed


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## lux (Aug 2, 2006)

well,



> It doesnt matter if we dont know HOW they did it, we KNOW they did it. Thats the most important thing. So commercial developers should spend a long time thinking about how to get a similar sound, and why eveyrthing else just doesnt sound as good



ok, still cant see the point. They should what? they already do and probably just arent capable to reach the right level.

If they have to look to something, better they look to the real thing. Nothing beats the real thing, included pp. And still actually the totality of pp related posts were just praise and such. Probably a technical discussion about pp could help. But it is just not possible, unless we want to talk with plenty of "maybe" or "perhaps they did that way"...



> Why not? I doubt anyone is better at mockups than TJ, he raises the bar for everyone. But he has also shown what sample technology is capable of. Without TJ and PP, the bar would be significantly lower both in what we expect from sample libraries, and what we believe is possible with sampled mockups. We know whats "possible" with a really good sample library and with a really good mockup. How would we have known that on our own?



I see what you mean, but this still doesnt help that much technically



> Of course, out of all the people that use PP TJ is the best. But I have heard TJs stuff with QLSO and VSL and this is still significantly better.



you are confirming what i said above. I said those mockupers could give us a distorted impression of the library, due mainly to their ability and not to the library itself

Luca


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## Sovereign (Aug 2, 2006)

Thomas,

Thanks for the answer re the score. Is there any chance you could make available a high quality mp3 of this recording? 128kbps is a bit low. 

Cheers,
Jean


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2006)

Ed @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Of course, out of all the people that use PP TJ is the best.
> 
> Ed



That's the statement right there. I've heard PP with other users and quite frankly there are better libraries. With PP Thomas has access to the raw sample data and he is able to manipulate and program the recordings in his mockups. I think that's important. I wish that developers would get over their fears of everybody stealing their samples and unlock the content. 

Personally mojomadness as a piece of music is just okay imo. I've heard better more inspired pieces from Thomas. This one does sound like and excercise. But that's what it was intended to be. What's missing in this piece is the emotional communication. Not having heard any of TJ's live stuff it's hard to tell if it's the composition or the recording. Technically it's pretty convincing, but emotionally not so. So I'm left wondering if this is the one limitation that samples have. Can they convey the emotion that's needed? It's obvious now that technically there's little difference between samples and live.

What's profound is that for the first time I actually thought that samples where real. This is major. For it means that it is possible to fool even the most dicerning ear with a recorded mockup. And, that it is possible to get the big budget Hollywood sound and performance without an orchestra. That's major. Way major.

J-
José


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## Angel (Aug 2, 2006)

"So JW never sounds like Tchaikovsky?!"

Some of the wisest words I heard in the last few years...

Thumbs up...

Always comparing composers... always always always...

Do a cue with a lot of trumpets and horns and everyone's saying: "ehh... Williams... huhu"

I hate it...

TJB is one of my favourite upcoming composers... and I thought he were much older. I realized his age a few days ago and was shocked...

Angel


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## JacquesMathias (Aug 2, 2006)

Jose, following your thoughts

of course we can delivery a high quality product with samples. I think it's a fact.

But, if you have a scene where you need a deep emotion, a single and simple melody played by one oboe with strings in background, the "soul" come from real players. We can make it sounds very nice. But with "live players" it would sound more than nice. It would sound alive. 

I've usualy recording with live strings. 4/4/2/2/1... 

I'm talking about emotions. I'm not talking about conection between notes and realism, that CAN perfectly be achieved by sample libraries. I guess you already recorded with live players. So you know what i'm talking about. Soul.

I still think real musicians are unrivalled for "emotional passages".


Best.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 2, 2006)

josejherring @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Ed @ Wed Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, out of all the people that use PP TJ is the best.
> ...




What other users? And what libs are better than PP? Just wondering if I missed out on some major library somewhere.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

josejherring @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Ed @ Wed Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, out of all the people that use PP TJ is the best.
> ...



You and Lux just seem in denial. Yes, TJ is very good at sampled mockups. And you can hide behind that and claim its his skills alone. I defy anyone to come up with _anything _with QLSO or VSL that sounds _anywhere _near this good. If there were better libs TJ would be using them, and he has pretty much all other libraries. But if you want to pretend they can, stay in wonderland  But what samples were you talking about that are better than PP? And what do you base that accessment on? 

EDIT: and and btw TJ had access to VSL raw samples too you know. And Im not saying he did or he didnt, but I know *some* people also had the raw QLSo samples. 



> it's pretty convincing, but emotionally not so



I put to you that if you took some short clip of Star wars action music out of context it would sound just like this. And this was done in a day. Could JW do that? Dont forget that JW doesnt do sampled mockups.

Ed


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

lux @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> ok, still cant see the point. They should what? they already do and probably just arent capable to reach the right level.



You think commercial libraries sound as good as PP? Well, if _you _think so. What strings can I buy that sounds as good as this? What brass can I buy that sounds as good as this? 



> If they have to look to something, better they look to the real thing. Nothing beats the real thing, included pp.



This is just silly, they've been "looking to the real thing" for years. What PP does is set the bar, it shows whats *possible*. It shows how good samples *could *sound. Its something to aim for. 



> And still actually the totality of pp related posts were just praise and such. Probably a technical discussion about pp could help. But it is just not possible, unless we want to talk with plenty of "maybe" or "perhaps they did that way"...



Point is praise is good. If enough developers realise we expect better quality samples from them in future I think they'll spend a little more time thinking about how to achieve this. VSL recorded in a dry room, but this isnt the best approach. QLSO still does sound like samples despite the Pro update, the strings are still synthy, just not as synthy as before. You and Jose can just blame the demo makers, and pretend that TJ and Maarten can work miracles and it would somehow sound just as good using VSL or something, but I feel I've listened to enough PP and commercial developer libraries and talked to people using PP enough to know that isnt true. TJ once told me its sounds leagues better than whats out there (paraphrased). And he's used ALL the libraries! 



> I see what you mean, but this still doesnt help that much technically



Why not? If you know its possible to sound this good maybe it might make them figure out how to do it instead of pretending its impossible like they might have done before. Its why you get Russian sample developers that have only paid attention to hardware orchestral modules coming out with $399 string libraries that sound 10 years too late.



> > Of course, out of all the people that use PP TJ is the best. But I have heard TJs stuff with QLSO and VSL and this is still significantly better.
> 
> 
> 
> you are confirming what i said above. I said those mockupers could give us a distorted impression of the library, due mainly to their ability and not to the library itself



But these guys have used all the other libraries, and if they say its better then I can hear and understand that that is probably correct.

Ed


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## pdzl (Aug 2, 2006)

I agree with Ed. A lot of wizards in this forum who have VSL and QLSO often use other things, especially for strings.

Even TJ's QLSO demos weren't that great compared to this or his other demos. They were definitely fake sounding in comparison.

His VSL demos are far better even especially his oboe demo.

Maarten has and can buy anything yet his template doesn't have QLSO or almost very little of it.

Weren't people were begging TJ to do more QLSO demos and Nick Phoenix mentioned TJ didn't want to redo his template or some ridiculously unimportant reason? I guess TJ doesn't use much of QLSO. lol

For me the one edge PP has over all is the strings. Nothing comes close in the tone and richness of it.

I find it strange that companies like EW or VSL who spend millions and millions and have supposedly a lot of talent behind them to produce the samples, can't make strings as good as the ones in PP. :(

Back to the topic, TJ does indeed make amazing things with what he has. I still remember his old Kirk Hunter and Roland demos that made the whole Northern Sounds have fights and Nick Phoenix and Donnie charged TJ of tricking us. lol!

This one is no different. Spectacular TJ. Congratulations.


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## pdzl (Aug 2, 2006)

One additional point is, for me, I tend to find the orchestral mock up demos that are most believable are the ones that blend different libraries together. 

For me usually the combination of PP, VSL, SI and Project SAM samples in mockups usually do the best job of convincing me of realism either because of quality or lack of tell tale signs.

But of course, the crucial element is who is doing the mock up in question as well.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

pdzl @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> His VSL demos are far better even especially his oboe demo.


His Oboe demo used PP,  which btw I find a little cheeky because I would assume it was VSL if I didnt know better.



> I find it strange that people like EW or VSL who spend millions and millions and havesupposedly a lot of talent behind them, can't make strings as good as the ones in PP. :(



Exactly! This is my point! What could they have done if they had the millions East West supposedly spent on QLSO? VSL also had a massive budget and Audio IMpresssions claims to have spent somthing like 5 million or something? I really doubt PP cost more than $40,000, if that. Too bad TJ wants to be a composer rather than a sample developer right? :razz:


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## iocomposer (Aug 2, 2006)

pdzl @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> I find it strange that people like EW or VSL who spend millions and millions and have supposedly a lot of talent behind them, can't make strings as good as the ones in PP. :(



Good point!



pdzl @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Back to the topic, TJ does indeed make amazing things with what he has. I still remember his old Kirk Hunter and Roland demos that made the whole Northern Sounds have fights and Nick Phoenix and Donnie charged TJ of tricking us. lol!



LOL!! I remember Donnie actually called me (on the phone) and had me totally convinced that TJ was pulling one over on us. It was amazing how emotionally charged those days were.... now it's all so "ho hum".


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Aug 2, 2006)

This incredible cue hasn't surfaced on NS yet, hehe. Apparently no VI Mag readers over there?

I'm curious about what ambience was used, TJ once told me he was going to use Samplicity, but I haven't checked if he already did.

I was also very sure this was real... Bravo Thomas!

How can you pull this off in one day? That means no individual note tweaking to get details right? I just can't believe this can be done in a single day... :shock:


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## pdzl (Aug 2, 2006)

iocomposer so true, it is ho hum today. I guess that's what happens when competitors and sample developers are at each others throats trying to sell their products!

In those old NS days developers were more interested in trying to break technological bounds instead of fighting with each other for sales. Although they still had their fights even back then, but at least it wasn't about money or selling their products! At least it was a little more subtle than it is today! Today they just bash each other and try to get their fans to bash the other side and other devious things!

Whatever happened to donnie anyway? I have not heard about him since everyone complained about his new company middle of last year. Is he still in the sample business?


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

Peter Roos @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Even this incredible cue hasn't surfaced on NS, hehe.



Last time TJ posted something with PP strings some GPO fan said "GPO could do that" :roll: :lol:


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## pdzl (Aug 2, 2006)

Ed @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Peter Roos @ Wed Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Even this incredible cue hasn't surfaced on NS, hehe.
> ...



To be fair it's like that almost everywhere now. NS has become an extension of Garritan since that's where his home base is. At the EW forum it's dominated with people who wear only EW colored glasses and can't be objective. Many there think VSL and SI sound more synthy than silver! At the VSL forum most of them think QLSO Platinum is completely fake. It goes on and on. :???: 

In the meantime is our last hope for awesome strings if somehow the PP group allowed Maarten to do Project SAM strings? (Dreaming).


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## Pando (Aug 2, 2006)

You give a virtuoso a Stradivari and he will make you cry. You give that instrument to another less experienced player and it will sound horrible, even though he’s using the exact same bow and a wooden box with four strings on it. Think about it.

My point is, what Thomas has achieved is a synergy of all his skills as a composer, orchestrator, performer, sample editor, and as a midi/computer programmer. Especially the first three which is why everything he does (including his pre-PP era tracks) sounds fantastic.

When he says that he did that in a day, he does not include the countless hours of tinkering around with his 630+ track template, building the articulations so they are actually playable real time, learning how to play them, etc, etc. Never mind the time spent getting a Master’s degree in classical composing. What you hear is a result of all of it, the whole package, instantly realized.

A big part of the sound you hear is the musicality of *all* the instruments together, not just the solo parts where someone randomly fiddles with a mod-wheel and cuts corners with the rest. He has got to a point where he can realize his musical ideas (and he is a composer, first and foremost) by simply playing them live, using a keyboard, each instrument at a time. To sound that good, you have to *play* each instrument in the virtual orchestra as a real thing, and this is no simple task. You have to know exactly how each live instrument is supposed to sound, separately, in a group, and in the whole orchestra. Every sample sounds synthy and fake (including PP) without using the correct expressions, articulations, and musicality with each instrument, which is why there’s a whole lot more going on here than simple “oh I wish I was using PP, I’d sound just as good.” Umm… no.


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## pdzl (Aug 2, 2006)

I don't think anyone is dismissing that point or not recognizing it. It is very true and a good point, but it's also a given.

TJ made great demos even with Roland samples. It doesn't mean I want to buy those or use them for that matter. 

Everytime TJ, Maarten, Sharmy, Simon put out these great demos, it's apparent that they are custom samples (PP) and usually they are always a cut above their own other demos that use commercially available samples. That's the point of discussion that breeds these side discussions, because everyone wants them!

That's why these debates and discussions constantly grow. There's a lot of people here who want the biggest and the best, and it's definitely evident that these aren't available commercially. And it makes some of us wonder why can't sample developers with millions of dollars in their budgets produce similar results?


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

pdzl said:


> *Everytime TJ, Maarten, Sharmy, Simon put out these great demos, it's apparent that they are custom samples (PP) and usually they are always a cut above their own other demos that use commercially available samples*.



This pretty much is the point. So I bolded it for truth.



Pandol said:


> ]When he says that he did that in a day, he does not include the countless hours of tinkering around with his 630+ track template, building the articulations so they are actually playable real time, learning how to play them, etc, etc. Never mind the time spent getting a Master’s degree in classical composing. What you hear is a result of all of it, the whole package, instantly realized



Pando, thats a bit silly though. JW does I think someone said 2 minites of music a day, right? But lets pretend its 5 minites or something. According to this logic you also have to factor all his studying time and since JW is pretty old, thats a lot of studying.


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## Pando (Aug 2, 2006)

Oh I agree with you, pdzl. Which is why it's somewhat amusing to read these threads every time a new TJ track comes out. I think that even if PP was available to buy, people can't get it to sound that good, and start accusing TJ of pulling a fast one... 

I have read the controversy with the cello and brass at NS where people got downright hostile. Let's hope this board doesn't descend to that level, since we all can learn if we keep a good constructive discussion going.


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## ComposerDude (Aug 2, 2006)

I really like the Mojo Madness cue both for its ability to really evoke the intended John Williams style and for the exquisitely well-realized MIDI orchestration. It had me wondering seriously whether this was live orchestra or whether it could conceivably be the PP lib (and whatever others).

This is quite possibly one of the best MIDI mockups I've ever heard.

Thomas has a relentless pursuit of excellence that I admire, and in this demo he sets the pro-level-mockup bar a few notches higher. To have done this -- writing and full production -- in a little over one day, is a testament to his ability.

-Peter


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## kid-surf (Aug 2, 2006)

Maybe it's that I think that Thomas has gotten to the point where I'd be more impressed if he combined his agility with some concrete themes and such. Obviously I don't know what the rest of his work is like, only a few of his 'demos'. (I've heard about 4-5, never have heard what he's done in work mode). It's possible he's got music like that that he doesn't wish share. And that's why I said he should feel free to disregard my comments if he doesn't agree with them...

When I hear his 'demos' compared to the class-A guys I enjoy, the thing that's often missing for me is an emotional connection, and/or a strong theme. Simple math makes me suggest that that "may" be something he might want to look into, the rest of it he's got down. (the stuff he is praised for). 

I don't believe in not pointing out possible problems, I'd want someone who has never played an instrument to speak up if they felt they had some insight that may be helpful to me. I think it's egotistical to not be open to info no matter where it comes from -- Not saying that TJ isn't open to what I'm saying. 

When we watch a film we don't care how much agility the composer has, simply if we are moved. So it's not just about demos to me, I'm always thinking of the big picture, the career etc.

Oh, are we just looking at this as "demo work"? Ok, in that case I humbly bow to Thomas's feet. But if we're talking longevity in the film world as a great composer who's touched the lives of many over the years through their music, then I stand by every word of what I said. I don't think it's in a composers best interest for us all to praise them to the point where we can't possibly see room for growth. Especially when they aren't already a Class-A composer. I believe all of us have room for growth or we would be on higher budget films already. 

Some of you seem to be saying that 'Thomas is good, so... THE END!'. 


But that's not the way I see it, even though he's better than me (many of us) at his style of music. 

We can and do point out problems of Class-A composers on this very site. If we can see problems in their work, I think we are all susceptible to it. It's all relative. I believe the goal is to maximize the strengths necessary to be the best composer you can be... whatever type of composer it is that you are. (or do we all want to be JW?)

Someone made the comment that Thomas's music should push "us" [to better ourselves]. Well, it goes both ways. No one is beyond beneficial influence. I think it would be great to see Thomas be the next JW. I believe in his skill, so told him what I perceived as a weak area. (again: based on what I've heard of him, which 'could' be misleading. Only he knows for sure.)

I think it's short sighted to praise your peers and not offer advice along with it if something strikes you. No matter where you perceive their skill level.

if that makes me an egotistical asshole, so be it. But I don't think it does.


Just felt like saying that........ 

Ok, carry on..... I've bookended my position demonstrating my skill of complete and utter redundancy :D :mrgreen:


late...


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## Pando (Aug 2, 2006)

Ed @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Pando, thats a bit silly though. JW does I think someone said 2 minites of music a day, right? But lets pretend its 5 minites or something. According to this logic you also have to factor all his studying time and since JW is pretty old, thats a lot of studying.



I think you misunderstood me. What I tried to say is that most of us spend a lot of time in the sequencer recording something, tinkering with it, manually entering notes, making it sound good after the notes have been entered, etc. TJ does it different. He hears the music in his head, all the instruments, and then he sits down and plays them live. Bam. How much time does it take for a 2 minute tune to play each track in (figure about 20 or so instruments in the Mojo)? Half a day? The rest just massaging and mixing, and he's done.


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## kid-surf (Aug 2, 2006)

PP ---


I agree no one else who has it has gotten close to what Thomas has done w/it. It should be obvious that it's the composer not the samples.

BUT........... it starts with recording it right. 

I just want some strings that sound like strings. Too much to ask? Seemingly... oh well.


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

[quote:ab65a021ab="Pando @ Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:59 pm"] He hears the music in his head, all the instruments, and then he sits down and plays them live. Bam. How much time does it take for a 2 minute tune to play each track in (figure about 20 or so instruments in the Mojo)?òqž   Aûqž   Aüqž   Aýqž   Aþqž   Aÿqž   A qž   Aqž   Aqž   Aqž   Aqž   Aqž   Aqž   Aqž   Aqž   A	qž   A
qž   Aqž   Aqž   A qž   Aqž


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## Journeyman (Aug 2, 2006)

Sheesh, I wish y'all could get over the whole NS thing already. How long has it been now? Let it go.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 2, 2006)

Journeyman @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Sheesh, I wish y'all could get over the whole NS thing already. How long has it been now? Let it go.



I mentioned this before and probably got a whole bunch of rolley eye emoticons thrown at me or something.


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## grumpy oldman (Aug 2, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> if that makes me an egotistical asshole, so be it. But I don't think it does.



It does and you are.

At least you have given a clinic in how Saleiri would behave in 2006.

Face it - TJ kicks your ass, which I am sure hurts you more than most as your head is deeply lodged within.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 2, 2006)

After listening to TJ's track, the one thing that feels to me that it isn't in the same space as the rest of the orchestra are the timpanis...

As far as the debate about melody and the lack thereof, this is an action cue and many action cues do not need a great melody: the focus is on punctuating the tension on screen...

Cool cue TJ :wink:


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## Niah (Aug 2, 2006)

Yea, I don't get it. This is an action cue and people are talking about...emotion? I have never been moved by an action cue. An action cue is supposed to make you feel tense and on the edge of your seat. This piece does just that.


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## kid-surf (Aug 2, 2006)

grumpy oldman @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> kid-surf @ Wed Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > if that makes me an egotistical asshole, so be it. But I don't think it does.
> ...





That comment would mean more to me (not much) if you were yourself when you'd said it, something tells me you've got another name you log in under. 

Nice attempt at a cheap shot though. And good for you for completely missing the gist of what my, as you put it, "clinic" was.  Don't be so thin skinned, ya big baby.... 

Fine... Thomas is done growing, I believe you, he can't possibly get any better. Move over JW you've been replaced. 

Who's got who's head up who's ass? You'd better check yourself grumpy oldman... your nose looks a little brown. Nope, I'm not gonna kiss anyone's ass, that's not my style. I'm just honest in what I believe and forthright. No ulterior motive aside from expressing my opinion.

PS... my previous comments had nothing to do with melody, or the lack there of. We've got some myopic thinking going on. 

As well, 'my' music is irrelevant. Assume I'm horrible, fine, my opinion is the same.


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## kid-surf (Aug 2, 2006)

Niah @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> Yea, I don't get it. This is an action cue and people are talking about...emotion? I have never been moved by an action cue. An action cue is supposed to make you feel tense and on the edge of your seat. This piece does just that.



*For the record:*

My comments were directed at my opinion that 'many' cue I've heard from Thomas sounded like an homage to JW, so it would be cool to get the pay off too. (like I alluded to, it could be that he thinks that that's what people want to hear in demos, I don't know his work away from a few demos)

Yet, there are composers who inject emotion into action cues. And that's part of the reason they are GREAT. (in my "opinion")

If anyone else is suggesting that all action cues have emotion, that's on them, it's not my position.

Look, if you say anything "not entirely glowing" about someone who sounds like JW you're gonna take some shit for it. No big deal, I knew I would.

And yet, I believe what I said is more of a compliment to Thomas than anything else said in this thread...... to each his own [perception]


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## kid-surf (Aug 2, 2006)

> Btw, I find it quite humorous that some people go to great lengths to make up definite opinions of a composer's musical sensibilities based on a few commercial demos :D This is just 2 minutes of music of an output comprised of over 4 hours in the recent couple of years! Not fair! :D



Since I'm that guy.... :D

I don't have a definitive opinion on what your sensibilities are. (that's why I put in all sorts of disclaimers). My comments weren't even so much about the demos. It was merely a suggestion. A suggestion that I hear an emotion in your idols music that I don't often hear in these 'demos'. You're right, a few demos aren't enough to make a definitive 'opinion' of one's sensibilities. I wasn't assuming I could. So if you felt that way I apologize.

I feel like no one understood what the hell I was getting at... thinking I was slamming you. that's fine. but not true. :mrgreen:


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## kid-surf (Aug 2, 2006)

pdzl @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> kid unfortunately I think it is. Our last best hope is Project Sam strings since Maarten is involved in PP. But who knows if he will make one. I guess he's more interested in making some organ sample ... or perhaps this is all just a convenient way of keeping this jewel to themselves?





I agree... Maarten would probably be the guy who could get it right. Seeing as Thomas ain't gonna do it twice. 

i wish someone would try..... not to do PPII, just some strings that sound good.


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## Niah (Aug 2, 2006)

I honestly don't see ProjectSam doing strings, I wish they would, but I don't see that at least not in the near future. True strike II isn't finished yet and I believe there is still a third volume in the series (if all goes as planned). ProjectSam seems now to be focusing in delivering products that are lacking in all the major devs catalogue.
Besides If they did strings, they would probably turned out like their SAM Brass series, great but not PP-ish great. Meaning, they wouldn't be all rawish and noisy like PP. Remember it would be just like any commercial library has to appeal to a large costumer base just like TJ mentioned.
with that said I honestly believe that it would be the best commercial strings available.


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## Pando (Aug 2, 2006)

Based on TJ's comments, and some of his music available on the net, looks like he is still trying to find his own style and niche. Most of that music does sound like tests, trials, and show-offs of various articulations, demos of various styles by JW and others, etc.

However, what really opened my eyes recently is something entirely different. Yes, TJ can compose musical styles other than the action-cinematic you've been hearing. What strikes me on that tune is the simple beauty of the composition than anything else. This really throws a shiver up my spine and my hair is standing on end....

http://audio.freshground.com/videohelpe ... H04_30.asf


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2006)

Pando @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> http://audio.freshground.com/videohelpe ... H04_30.asf



It wont let me play it :cry:


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## Pando (Aug 2, 2006)

I don't know why that link won't work for you. You need Windows media player. Anyway, they are at videohelper. You can search the library here (search by Composer):
http://www.videohelper.com/frontdoor/musicsource_search.cfm

There are older ones there also, mono, but recently a new Disc 04 music appeared, which has TJ's Japanese-themed tunes at 96k stereo (Ashes, Emergence, Heavy Rainfall, Into the East, Night in Japan, Taiko Thunder, War, and Yamamoto's Plot). My god they're beautiful, especially Emergence, Into the East and Night in Japan. I have no clue whether they are samples or live players though. I think they are samples, since in some places the string solo is carefully crafted to sound very realistic, but a live player would have played it a bit different where it would have been obvious.

(Thomas, I sincerely hope it's ok with you to post the link here, if not please let me know).


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## PaulR (Aug 3, 2006)

kid-surf @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> grumpy oldman @ Wed Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > kid-surf @ Wed Aug 02 said:
> ...



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## Hermitage59 (Aug 5, 2006)

I was impressed by two things.
Whatever the discussion about samples, TJ has an inherent musicality that provides a great base to start from. I'm impressed with his orchestration and impressive sense of balance and tonal maturity. I looked at the score of MM, and admired the sure hand of experience guiding the piece through development after development. The time taken is immaterial for me. If it's good, a day or week doesn't matter, simply because it's worth listening to more than once. He's obviously a good composer, and instinctive orchestrator. (IMHO)

As for the samples?
Most commercial libraries attempt to cover as much tonal ground and 'genres' as possible, with the occasional exception for specific purposes. (VSL Epic Horns, etc,)
If TJ uses a self built, self realised library according to his own tastes, then good luck to him. Seems to make sense that if you wanted to do this, you'd do it according to an aural formula, and programmed efficiency that would suit your work methods. And because he's found a group of likeminded fellows, all the better.
The demos produced will always be better in competent hands, because custom sounds are the end result of a 'musical marriage' between ear and perception, without the 'broadbrush' required of commercial neccesity.
And on the other end of the scale from a full orchestral library, i wonder how many of us have our core sample set however big or small, that we've tweaked, moulded, manipulated, and saved as our own. I know i have. Compared to a big commercial product, and specifically, dependent on what type of music i'm writing, my little travel set sounds,per instrument, decidely ordinary. But as part of a whole, they take on a life that i choose and have worked at, as a 'fairly decent sound'.

Aside from our seemingly united desire for 'holy grail' strings, we've all got different ideas on what suits our ear and needs best. While one of us will enjoy the sounds of VSL, another will gain more satisfaction from EW, or SI, etc. (within commercial samples.)
So as objective critique, i enjoyed the overall 'TJ' sound. Not just for the superb musicianship, but the sound that he's 'built' with his own hands so to speak, that reflects and enhances HIS perception of what he wants to 'say'.
Everyone's got their own criteria for what is good or not, and mine are Orchestration and Tone. 

So TJ, nice work.

As for an 830 track template?

Whatever works..........

My two roubles worth.

Alex.


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## Pando (Aug 6, 2006)

Thomas_J @ Wed Aug 02 said:


> The irony of it all is perhaps that all the time and energy I've spent trying to reach the ultimate heights of "realism" has been somewhat obsolete in perspective, as I see myself working more and more with live musicians.



Thomas, this is interesting. Considering that you now have literally unhindered freedom to compose and perform with your virtual setup, do you ever find it challenging to work your compositions with live musicians? Have you realized that live players sometimes cannot perform as good, or as precisely, as you can with your own setup? Or, have you had disappointments where what sounded good when you performed, did not sound as good, or sounded different with live players, and you had to make modifications to your composition?

This is really fascinating. You are at a point now where you can realize most anything electronically, with amazingly excellent and real results. There have to be some advantages to that, such as getting your composition performed *exactly* as you want, instead of fighting with individual playing styles of live musicians, etc. Humans have limitations too when an entire orchestra tries to play extremely fast, energetic pieces.

What are your thoughts on that?


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## Damon (Aug 6, 2006)

AHHHHH, you guys leave it alone with the realism already (not calling anybody out in general). TJ is probably the most brilliant composer and user of samples on this forum obviously. Respect to him!! :wink: He made me write a piece for the last 2 days just out of his inspiration.

Really the samples are great by far, but it's more the artistic freedom and brilliant orchestartion and compostion that carry a piece.

Sorry I've had a bit to much to drink tonight but I think it's true :oops:

TJ make us proud and show your name on a major movie credit because I know you can bro!!!

I think Zimmer would sh*t if he heard your stuff! :mrgreen:


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## JacquesMathias (Aug 8, 2006)

Damon @ Mon Aug 07 said:


> AHHHHH, you guys leave it alone with the realism already (not calling anybody out in general). TJ is probably the most brilliant composer and user of samples on this forum obviously. Respect to him!! :wink: He made me write a piece for the last 2 days just out of his inspiration.
> 
> Really the samples are great by far, but it's more the artistic freedom and brilliant orchestartion and compostion that carry a piece.
> 
> ...




I agree 100%.  Talent like TomasJ is pretty rare. It's hard to find someone with -really- good musical ideas and at the same time with computers/samples skills. Of course, we on this forum have realized his talent, but too sad that usually people just "realize" someone like him when he become a famous composer, what surely will happen with him. I'm sorry, i'm being sincere. 

Cheers.


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## Pando (Aug 8, 2006)

Thank You, Thomas, for taking the time to answer the questions, this is really great...  I truly hope that we can start seeing your name in movie credits as a composer soon... I can't wait for the soundtracks.

Do you have any more tracks you can post, even some old/tests/trials/unfinished/forgotten stuff? I think it would be incredible to hear how you have progressed over the years in your quest to build your own library. I still listen to that old bruckner piece of yours from time to time...  And that mexican piece you posted recently was awesome!

Thank you again.

...

Oh, and, has anyone taken on the *choc0thrax challenge*???? http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52486&highlight=#52486 :mrgreen:


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## choc0thrax (Aug 8, 2006)

Yes there should be a choco challenge. Grand prize: free AIDS!!!


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## KingIdiot (Aug 12, 2006)

yah TJ is awesome

but I know his weakness...

the sound of a dog licking itself in the middle of the night...

which in fact means he is not a god...

possibly a superhero...in a lame Smallville kinda way


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 12, 2006)

"Talent like TomasJ is pretty rare. It's hard to find someone with -really- good musical ideas and at the same time with computers/samples skills."

What's even more rare is to combine all that with the enthusiasm and drive Thomas has. Lots of people have the raw talent.


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## Pando (Aug 13, 2006)

Nick, I really hope to see more articles from Thomas in your magazine in the future, as Thomas mentioned that he would like to do them as well.

I think a topic like "how to breathe life into old samples using K2 scripting" or something like that would go a long way. Kick-ass demos comparing the efforts of customized commercial libs and a complete custom job like PP would be very nice as well. 

Most of us mortals don't have access to PP or VIPRO, which is why it would be interesting to learn from the master how we can customize some of those commercial libs (AO, Miroslav, Ultimate Strings, Roland, etc) and make them actually *playable* and to sound more realistic...

Thank you Nick for the great magazine, the TJ's article made a subscriber out of me.


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## Ranietz (Aug 15, 2006)

One impressive demo. No doubt about it.


Btw, Thomas J, you aren't by any chance from Norway, are you?

-Ranietz-


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## Nick Batzdorf (Aug 15, 2006)

Thanks Pando. We hope to have more TJ soon.


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## Pando (Aug 15, 2006)

Thanks Nick!

I was going thru the back-issues and found that King-Idiot already has some of the K2 topic covered. Sweet! Of course I wouldn't mind at all to see TJ to be featured there often, no matter what the topic, with lots of music...


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 27, 2006)

Hardy Heern @ Sat Aug 26 said:


> Alright then....Thomas is great.....but hey, anyone can emulate John Williams.
> 
> Frank



OK Frank, I think you should give us an example of you emulating John Williams then


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## Christian Marcussen (Aug 27, 2006)

Good one Frank - you _are_ kidding right?


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## Patrick de Caumette (Aug 27, 2006)

It sounds like he is...


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## Ed (Aug 27, 2006)

Simon Ravn @ Sun Aug 27 said:


> Hardy Heern @ Sat Aug 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Alright then....Thomas is great.....but hey, anyone can emulate John Williams.
> ...



Can TJ show us some consistently mediocre music? :razz:


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## Mike Greene (Aug 28, 2006)

Of course Frank is kidding. This line cracks me up:



Hardy Heern @ Sat Aug 26 said:


> . . . I specialise in amateur sounding crap. Can *he* do this??? and even if he could, would he be able to do it repeatedly, and consistently, year in...year out as I can? . . .



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

- Mike Greene


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 29, 2006)

Damnint Frank - you need to be less subtle


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## kid-surf (Aug 29, 2006)

Hardy Heern @ Sat Aug 26 said:


> Alright then....Thomas is great.....but hey, anyone can emulate John Williams. What I want to know is how many musical styles can he cover?
> 
> For example, I specialise in amateur sounding crap. Can *he* do this??? and even if he could, would he be able to do it repeatedly, and consistently, year in...year out as I can?
> 
> ...




Don't be so hard on yourself. Crap sells...


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## Ed (Aug 29, 2006)

kid-surf @ Tue Aug 29 said:


> Don't be so hard on yourself. Crap sells...



Phew! I was about to give up! :razz:


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## choc0thrax (Aug 29, 2006)

Ed @ Tue Aug 29 said:


> kid-surf @ Tue Aug 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't be so hard on yourself. Crap sells...
> ...



Ed, you're going to be a millionaire!


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## Ed (Aug 29, 2006)

choc0thrax @ Tue Aug 29 said:


> Ed @ Tue Aug 29 said:
> 
> 
> > kid-surf @ Tue Aug 29 said:
> ...



 You're mean.


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## Hardy Heern (Aug 30, 2006)

kid-surf @ Tue Aug 29 said:


> Hardy Heern @ Sat Aug 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Alright then....Thomas is great.....but hey, anyone can emulate John Williams. What I want to know is how many musical styles can he cover?
> ...



Thank you Kid......this is very reassuring and comforting!! :lol: 
I guess, where there's crap; there's hope!

Frank


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