# How to record strings without breaking the bank



## christianhowes (May 21, 2013)

Today's producer needs to use every competitive advantage to compete in the music industry.
Working with players who collaborate remotely - "overdub teams" - is an affordable alternative to hiring large sections or using virtual instruments. If you know what to watch for, you can save time and money while improving the quality of your projects. Check out this post to position yourself, and your clients, to win from these new production strategies.

http://christianhowes.com/2013/03/29/ho ... -the-bank/

If you'd like to hear more or our work check out http://christianhowes.com/our-work/

Please feel free to send me a message, email [email protected] or call (614) 332-8689


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## reid (May 22, 2013)

christianhowes @ 21st May said:


> Check out this post to position yourself, and your clients, to win from these new production strategies.



If we were playing media-buzz-word-bingo, I'd be screaming 'HOUSE!' at this point. Can anyone translate that sentence into something that makes sense? Thanks.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 22, 2013)

reid @ Wed May 22 said:


> christianhowes @ 21st May said:
> 
> 
> > Check out this post to position yourself, and your clients, to win from these new production strategies.
> ...


My Marketese is a bit rusty, but I think it means, "check out this post and progress your money from profit and scintillating snail anus."
The last bit might have lost its original meaning, sorry.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure I'm convinced by the audio examples that this could work. I'm just not hearing the 'spatial cohesion' I expect from an ensemble of live players.


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## Rctec (May 22, 2013)

Here is a very opinionated opinion...

I know how to get the best string sound without breaking the bank. Really:
Hire a small section of the best players with the best instruments in the best hall. Add a great recording engineer. They will be quick - which saves you money - and their passion, professionalism, musicianship and quality of sound will beat any huge line-up of uncommitted and inexperienced players. You can do this remotely, of course, with any studio in any country. 
But I think it's worth considering that you won't find truly great sounding instruments and players that match those instruments outside of L.A. and London. Sydney sounds good, too. Unless you are talking about the Berlin Phil or the Wiener Symphoniker or any of the other world-class orchestras, you just won't get the players. And chances are, the state-employed orchestras in Europe don't really want to do film or media session. That's why it's such a rarity to find great sounding scores recorded outside those cities, while conversly, you get jaw-dropping recordings of concert music from all over the world. I would love to work with the Berlin Phil! Or Vienna, Chicago, New York (wait - they don't have a studio left to hold a whole orchestra, but I could be wrong...).
"Lincoln" was recorded in Chicago - which is unusual, and I'm sure it took a bit of planning to pull that off...

The further east you go, the larger the sections need to be -in my opinion - to give you a full sound. That has partly to do with, again, just not having access to the greatest instruments (and who can argue that the quality of the instruments doesn't make a huge difference) and secondly, I just don't think the halls and studios compare with an Abbey Road or Air. Not to my ears, at least...

I listened to one example on that website. I think I can do better with a bunch of samples from pretty much any library. The playing sounded curiously undynamic and lifeless. And isn't that the whole point? If push came to shove, and you really want that human feel, it's much better to get a few great players to overdub to your samples. You just treat them as 'first chairs' in the mix.

Tracking one player up a number of times is a very specific 'pop' sound. Its not an 'orchestral' sound - how ever much reverb you throw on. If that's what you want, go for it. But your 'competitive media person' is going to hear 'indie' very quickly. And since the guys with the lowest budgets for music always want the biggest sound -strictly for snob appeal - I strongly recommend you get your programming and orchestration chops together. 
If you listen to a Thomas Bergersen demo, or Steve Mazzaro (I hired him of something I heard where I thought he had made a very average orchestra sound great...when it turned out it was all samples and Mr. Mazzaro's programming chops..), or any of the 8dio demos (I'm being unfair and unrealistic - there isn't a sample company out there that doesn't have amazingly talented people doing great demos. For example, I don't know how Guy Bacos achieves the level of beauty and realism with those samples, but he does. ...and check out Mike Verta - but you know this already.) - I think you'll find them more impressive.
The other problem for me is that the Christian Howes strings seem to have a very specific sound to them. So, in a way it becomes just like any other sample library. Everybody will sound the same, and we'll quickly get bored.

I think it's the hyperbole of the original post that got me ranting. It's just not true that it would give anyone other than a sequencer imbecile an advantage. The question is more "Is that really the sound you hear in your head for your piece of music"? There is a method that pretends to cut cost and offer something that's not any more artistically satisfying than asking your mates from the local school to play. (If your local school still has a music program).
I believe Hannes has been doing something similar for a long time. He's just offering some good playing, decent recording, but not a career-changer. It feels honest and in the spirit of one musician helping another musician create art.

It's the shallowness of the promise that bugs me.
But then - I could be wrong. Maybe...This Is The Future! ...and we where just all too stupid to realize that this was standing in our way between starving composer and Major Media Career!
In jest...(sort of)
-Hz-


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## rpaillot (May 22, 2013)

Also, a great conductor ? 

I've recorded with some east orchestras and the "best sound" I got was with one amazing conductor whose name is PP ( ok it's Petr Pololanik  ) with the capellen orchestra.

He took some very precise balance decisions I had not thought of . And he knows his players perfectly. Also they have an amazing studio for an east orchestra.

Sorry for the OT ...


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## Jdiggity1 (May 22, 2013)

Rctec @ Wed 22 May said:


> Here is a very opinionated opinion...
> Sydney sounds good, too.
> -Hz-



Amen!


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## XT26 (May 22, 2013)

I enjoy cultivating relationships with great players and studios in my home town that I can work with over time. Has to beat remote recording with someone who doesn't know me from a bar of soap.

Half the fun for me is in the collaboration, I love working with great musicians so I certainly don't want to outsource that part of the process.

Tom


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## Arbee (May 22, 2013)

While I appreciate this may be a viable option for some situations, the thing I would miss most is the learning experience of being there and listening to the players' feedback. If I'm not learning I'm not living....

.


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## Kejero (May 22, 2013)

That's all great if you can find those great players with the best instruments, and that great hall... But for a beginning composer that can be very, VERY challenging. I'm absolutely convinced of the merits of going for the best, even financially I easily see the win-win situation, but on ridiculously low-budget projects and with a limited skill-set and a tight deadline, for a beginning composer a service like Christian's may actually BE the best they can go for. For a pop-song demo it seems perfect.

The FAQ states you don't pay anything until you're happy with the results, so... Come on, it's not that different from one musician helping another. The marketese makes it sound like something different and may not be... the best choice . But I don't know, it'll probably appeal to some.


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## germancomponist (May 22, 2013)

A very interesting thread. 

This reminds me to some erxperiments I did with samples in 2008. I added many solo violins to built a section. The actual performance was not great, but that was due to the limitations of the samples I had used, some of which were pretty awful. 

But I think I got an interesting result. Listen only to the "sound" of the violins. o/~ 

https://www.box.com/shared/ny6b9hjtw8

And here you can listen to the single samples: https://www.box.com/shared/dwf3n6tk4w

Maybe I should do new experiments with the newer libraries.... . 

_PS: I did a thread about my experiments but I can't find it. Maybe I did it at northernsounds.com ... ._


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## lucky909091 (May 22, 2013)

Question to you: did you do this with Akai Samplers?


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## wst3 (May 22, 2013)

Excellent post Rctec... while I may have (hypothetically speaking) learned the lesson more than once, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Spending the necessary fee, whether for a service or a tool, almost always saves money (and frustration and reputation and...)

Two minor quibbles...

First, I was upset that you did not mention Philadelphia in your list of orchestras, but then as you expanded I had to admit that the last soundtrack they recorded was probably "Fantasioa"... so I guess your list stands. (I'm still disappointed<G>)

Second, while recording the same player/instrument in the same space will never be a satisfactory substitute for a group of players playing together, I have heard some pretty good results by using different microphones and preamplifiers, and different spots in the space, for each take. Still not the same, but closer than using the same microphone!


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## Christof (May 22, 2013)

I like the way HZ praises Guy Bacos and Mike Verta for their great programming skills.After all that success he still remains a humble musician.


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## Hannes_F (May 22, 2013)

Rctec @ Wed May 22 said:


> I believe Hannes has been doing something similar for a long time. He's just offering some good playing, decent recording, but not a career-changer. It feels honest and in the spirit of one musician helping another musician create art.



Thanks for noticing this. I am glad to say I've been able to help more than one aspiring composer in his development, and that is something I am really proud of from an artistical point of view. For me the real point of recording somebody's music is one artist meeting the other (can be virtually) and both learning something, taking something away with him as an experience, as a process. Honestly said I've a tendency to shy out of situations where it is only all about a 'slim and effective top-down-production'.

That being said there are different ways to achieve a goal, and I've always tried not to make composers exclusively dependent from me. Some have come back, some have moved on to record with big orchestras or other artists, some have returned to samples exclusively - either is fine for me. 

I'd have comments to other aspects mentioned here too but maybe at another time and in another thread. Generally I applaud the idea of a station where composers can hire live players in a convenient way with fast turnarounds etc. etc. and wish Christian Howes all the best from my side!


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## windshore (May 23, 2013)

Rctec makes a wonderful argument here. Remember, even though the business has changed dramatically, some of the best musicians from around the world move to places like LA in order to challenge themselves to become the best they can be. I know I wouldn't be half the player if I hadn't put myself in such a competitive and supportive environment. We have a lot to offer in terms of feedback besides just executing a part...

Music of all things is meant to be synergistic. Even if you can only afford to use one or 2 players, the collaboration will probably bring a lot more to your project than "a better sample" possibly could.


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## reddognoyz (May 23, 2013)

I don't usually get to record live strings for my cartoon scores sadly. I did use Pete Whitfield and Real Strings for a cocoa puffs commercial that featured strings, and an onscreen french restaurant wandering violin player. One of those good moments, I dropped the tracks into my session and Phew!!! Perfect!! Done!! It was a super easy process, I sent him the midi file and an mp3, he sent me the spits and a bill.

This wasn't supposed to be a large ensemble, so it's not the film score kind of record Hz was talking about, but for this sort of application it was good, fast and cheap, the production trifecta.

I did hear a track Real Strings did for my friends at Blue Man Group on my recommendation. Kind of a Scheherazade/rock track epic thing. They layered on top of the vi strings, which were pretty lifeless, and it really transformed the track. With the layering you got the hugeness along with the emotional performance.


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## christianhowes (May 23, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback!

Having developed some great friends and clients here already, I welcome skepticism and accept that the burden of proof falls on us to establish how our string recording service can provide unique and substantial benefits to composers.

A couple brief points:

-Thanks for mentioning Steve Mazzaro. I agree-he's great!. (We recently completed our second major project for Steve in two years.)

Re the sales copy, I take your point, and perhaps could have said this instead: For composers who want an affordable alternative to samples , we offer a time and cost-saving solution which is of high musical quality. Our solution is often more realistic and human than samples and costs far less than hiring a live section (it sometimes even costs less than samples!).

Perhaps some of us have different ideas regarding what it means to break the bank

For instance, we track 17- 24 strings on a typical 3-5 minute piece for between $400-$800. The client/composer receives 17-24 isolated wav files and has total control in post. The composer incurs no studio costs, no risk of a live session going south, no bleed between parts...You will incur a fraction of the cost, time, and labor involved in hiring a small section, going in the studio, and combing through the mix.

We're accustomed to winning over skeptics and welcome anyone on this forum to give us a try with virtually no risk. If you don't like the results, don't pay us. It will take five minutes of your time to send us your materials and review the draft we send to your inbox. I guarantee you'll have a great experience, but if you don't, I welcome you to bash us based on experience, as opposed to speculation.

BTW, another unique benefit we provide is the ability to improvise on the highest levels in exotic styles such as classical, jazz, americana, celtic, rock, middle eastern, etc... Wouldn't you agree this is something one cannot easily program?
As a former Associate Professor at Berklee, I've taught many of the better improvising string players working today, some of whom contribute to our team.

Over the coming days and weeks I will post choice examples of our work to let those here consider for themselves whether or not our work is better than samples. Regardless, with our prices, we are still often more affordable than samples!

Thanks again to all for your feedback, and let me know if I can ever help with anything ("no strings attached")! I'm grateful for the opportunity to develop "artist to artist" connections within this great community.


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## christianhowes (May 25, 2013)

HZ-I'm curious what about our promise you think is hyperbolic.

We also offer an "artist to artist" solution, which hundreds of composers, including ones you hire, benefit from. Nothing more and nothing less. We provide a real advantage for many composers who can't afford live sections and want an alternative to samples.

Contrary to your assumptions, my players and I are incredibly "honest, committed, and experienced". I have former students who play on your sessions. 

You may not like the sound of one work sample, but it's surprising that someone of your stature would go to such length to actually bash our work by comparing us unfavorably to school students and "any sample library"- That seems hyperbolic. 

violinist, christian howes


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## MarkS_Comp (May 25, 2013)

christianhowes @ Thu May 23 said:


> For instance, we track 17- 24 strings on a typical 3-5 minute piece for between $400-$800. The client/composer receives 17-24 isolated wav files and has total control in post.



So in otherwords, you track each solo violin seperately, and give that to your client? ie - you are not recording a string_ section_, is that it?


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## christianhowes (May 26, 2013)

"So in otherwords, you track each solo violin seperately, and give that to your client? ie - you are not recording a string section, is that it?"

yes, that's correct.


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## germancomponist (May 26, 2013)

Christian, I think it's good what you offer. It is not exactly the sound of a section, as Hans mentioned, but it is a nice "other" sound.


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## Rctec (May 26, 2013)

Sundays are good days for another pretentious rant 

Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device...according to the dictionary.
I object to your 'marketing language', using phrases like 'competitive advantage', etc...
to allowing an innocent novice to think that a violin tracked up will sound like a great string section, etc, etc. I realize that all one needs to do is listen to your examples to know that this is not so. There is nothing dishonest here. But still...I wonder if the educator in you doesn't realize that so many young and starving composers you are trying to appeal to haven't yet learned the sophistication of listening with a trained ear, and think they will get a great orchestral sound back....

I wonder how some of those ex-students of yours playing in my sections will feel, by you going out of your way to undercut their work. Or how some of your future students will feel, since you are trying to sell the idea that a homogeneous body of musicians is an expensive foible of the past, therefore better just forget any ambitions at joining an orchestra.

I detest the whole 'music by the yard' concept. Orchestral music is not t-shirts. It's art, it's about the concept of one individual interpreted by a community of artists, it's about something more than getting a good deal. If I put the time into writing something, I want it to be played with respect and soulfulness, with a full understanding of the intention behind every note; with no room at that moment to think about the commercial advantage - which is exactly what I get from the musicians I work with. Music is an intensly passionate occupation. I don't think of my musicians as 'The Strings', like looking at a faceless herd of sheep, but, just as I have the freedom to pick my notes, I want to be able to have a meaningful exchange about the music with each individual player. I know it seems as if I'm contradicting myself here, because your method of course means I only need to communicate with one player...but I seem to pick you strictly on price, not art or intellect. Or even if you are empathetic to the style of music and if you 'get' the piece.

I find that it's a constant battle to maintain a hold over the integrity of a piece of music, the original idea, once it leaves my head. Not because of directors or 'clients', as you call them (certain ladies have 'clients',too  ), but because I need the right group of individuals, the most sympathetic and suitable players and interpreters (and conductor, as someone pointed out quite rightly) - fellow artists - to not let the whole thing become an unfocused and turgid mess. 

Maybe, at the end of the day, I never quite get the idea why someone doesn't take the opportunity to get to know a fellow musician in their neighborhood. The Beatles would certainly have sounded different had they only met on the Internet.
Conversely, I think what Eric Whitacre has done with his Internet choir is pure art. He is using the technology to break new ground, to advance art. You are not talking about inclusion, the way Eric has done, you are not talking about creating the symphony orchestra of the future that lets players from all over the internet perform at the same time. Your ambition to me sounds like a lack of ambition. 

And as I said earlier, you're not describing a symphonic sound to me. You are not trying to say a string-section, a section made up of individuals - is going to enhance the quality of my music. You're speaking to young composers who don't know the difference. As an educator, I believe you to have even more of a duty to be clear in explaining that they will not get the sound of a grand ensemble, that there is a huge difference, and that the competitive edge comes from the idea in the music that can so easily be lost through thoughtless interpretation.

Musicians are a gullible lot. They come to it with passion and blind optimism. And then they hear about clients and business - and why not? They should make a great living at something they love. But it's a tricky thing, because we all know that all passionate musicians will put every penny they have back into making their music sound better. So I get a little sensitive when I read about the greatest new plug-in, or synth, or service that will give you a competitive edge (which, of course, is nonsense, since everybody can avail themselves of your service) over the other guy. You reduce artistic achievements strictly to economics, not talent or ideas. And that bugs me a little...

It's interesting that you mentioned Steve Mazzaro. I'm glad you know each other and you have done good work for him...not only do I see him as an incredibly talented individual, but we just spent a couple of month pondering the abyss that is "ordinary" and "serviceable" . And, I believe we won....but that's another story. Suffice to say that none of those words would ever apply to his talent or his music.
Bye the way, none of this is a criticism of your talent, playing or musicianship, since I have not had any first hand experience of it. And who am I to judge? It was strictly about the tone of your website. And maybe we are just experiencing a cultural gulf, divided by a common language, to paraphrase someone else's witty Bon mot...

And I could be completely wrong! I usually am. It's just one man's opinion. It should carry no more weight than yours. But you are the educator, not me. You are the one teaching young musicians how to listen and play, how to differentiate between the ordinary and serviceable and the excellent.

I wish you all the best,

-Hz-


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## Greg (May 26, 2013)

Thanks for offering the service, it is intriguing as a young composer.

However I personally have always felt that the luxury of having live players should be earned and not just purchased off of the internet. If that makes any sense.

Also I don't see the players having any emotional attachment to the music. I picture each one going through the list and quickly overdubbing some playing then moving on with no investment of emotion.

Surely myself plucking away at samples on a keyboard while being fully involved with the piece of music and able to 'recreate' SOME of the nuances of live players would ultimately yield a more genuine result?


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## Rctec (May 26, 2013)

Greg, you said it all in far fewer words than my rambling thing above...


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## Dan Mott (May 26, 2013)

Greg @ Mon May 27 said:


> Thanks for offering the service, it is intriguing as a young composer.
> 
> However I personally have always felt that the luxury of having live players should be earned and not just purchased off of the internet. If that makes any sense.
> 
> ...



Agree.


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## StrezovSampling (May 27, 2013)

By the way, lots of orchestras (especially the underrated Eastern-European ones) offer shared sessions, so young composers could team up and pay for half/one/two/one-and-a-half hours for a full orchestra. 

Even though samples and technology get better each day, nothing can beat the feeling of 50 musicians, throwing their hearts at your music. 

My humble 0.02$.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 27, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun May 26 said:


> Orchestral music is not t-shirts.


Can I put that on a t-shirt?


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## Vlzmusic (May 27, 2013)

I guess some characteristics got mixed up for many people. 
If you want your scores and sheets to be performed - that`s one goal, and there are ways to get there.
If you are self-producing musician, and want to create custom recordings of your music, you do have some new tech now. You may use "acoustic" sounds in your palette, but its still - electronic (or maybe digital now) way of doing things. Jarre, Vangelis, Oldfield anyone? 

Decide what is your art, try to excel in it, and leave out the remarks about what can, and what can`t be beat.


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## garylionelli (May 27, 2013)

VI Control, in many ways, is a sales bulletin board for sample developers, and that's great; it's a fantastic resource and my favorite site. But while I visit here every day to find out the latest and greatest in string libraries (and have purchased almost all of the them!), I lament the fact that so many will turn to samples first and never even think about hiring even a few live musicians. We all know it's usually for budgetary reasons, but the culture has shifted long ago as a result, no doubt. The other day I stumbled upon an old Flintstones episode and loved hearing that small live band Hoyt used to score those shows – so much fun! Much of that's gone now, for the most part. So when someone like Christian comes along and offers an alternative approach using live players – regardless of any other considerations – I have to applaud that. Maybe some here will give it a second thought if this alternative format appeals to them, and works within their budget. (Players can surely use any work they can get, too.) Sure there may be some shortcomings, but compared to using samples to replace musicians, I see this as an interesting step in the right direction. Kudos to you, Chris, I wish you the best!


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## Hannes_F (May 27, 2013)

Interesting clash in this thread!

Composers and players have been forming an alliance since centuries, and one could not live and work without the other. It seems like this alliance has been eroded, nearly cancelled today.

To be fair this erosion pretty much started on the side of the established music business to the disadvantage of composers. It had become hard to get new works performed. And I've heard lots of stories from media composers being disparagingly treated by orchestra musicians because they could not fluently read sheet music, have no academic training etc. yada yada. Therefore the advent of sample libraries was and is a logical development to counter this.

However the pendulum swings much to the other side right now. Composers (not all but the majority) are seeking to really _replace _players. Totally and all of them. It is really their heart's wish: Please developers, give us tools that will us enable to do it all without ever being dependent on any of the players any more, ever.

In this situation the existence of remote recording services is a message, and it says: "hey please, we have understood. We know you are trying to make us entirely superflouos, and you have a point. But in case you want to try again some time you should know that we have learned, too. You are not classically trained - ok we'll respect your musical imagination, your ear and your overall musicality and will work with your midi files. You can't afford large recordings - ok we do what we can do with less players and modern tools. Not that we insist on this but we just make ourselves ready to work for your music as good as we can and with all that we have." 

(And maybe, if we can deliver you a recording that is musically authentic and really takes your breath then we can re-establish your connection to players again.)

With other words, remote recording services as I see them are not means to replace studio orchestras. On the contrary, they are a stepstone that can help to re-discover the world of recording and collaboration.


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## guydoingmusic (May 27, 2013)

Gonna chime in here...

First of all, having live players doesn't necessarily mean your track is going to jump to the next level! My background is doing session work for artist. I have had the fortune of playing with many "A list" players. However, just because they were "A list" per se, never guaranteed a satisfactory performance and end result. Each album required different players because each player brings something unique to the table. As a producer/composer, your job is to figure out the best combination of players to achieve the desired result. 

Sometimes the services of Mr. Howes can be very beneficial. But nothing is ever guaranteed! I think that's where the offence is taken. Obviously, Mr. Howes is a very talented player. But if I want to record "Devil Went Down to Georgia", and I want it to sound like Charlie Daniels.. I'm gonna call Charlie Daniels to come in and play. 

Same with any instrument - If you want a Slash guitar solo, then hire Slash. etc.

So to sum it up. Be smart. Be intentional about the sound you are going for. Don't put a kazoo on a track unless you want it there. 

Again, I want to reiterate, that Christian's services can be highly beneficial. I have never had the opportunity to work with him. Just saying that he seems to be a very talented guy. And if he has the sound you are looking for, then go for it.


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## zacnelson (May 27, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed May 22 said:


> This reminds me to some erxperiments I did with samples in 2008. I added many solo violins to built a section. The actual performance was not great, but that was due to the limitations of the samples I had used, some of which were pretty awful.
> 
> But I think I got an interesting result. Listen only to the "sound" of the violins. o/~
> [/i]



Hi Gunther, I listened to the 2 mp3s you posted in Box, that was intriguing! Particularly the second one, hearing the different solo violin tracks one after the other, and the wide variances in `placement' and intensity. Did you achieve this purely by selecting different microphones (eg near, mid, far), or was it also switching between different solo violin libraries? It was also intriguing how you used different dynamic layers, which is probably something that wouldn't occur with an actual ensemble who would all be playing at a similar intensity. The end result was very pleasing, however I'm not sure it was worth the huge amount of effort, when an ensemble sample patch would have achieved a similar result. But perhaps if you provided a comparison with a full ensemble patch it would demonstrate that the layered version was more effective? Anyway, thanks so much for going to the trouble to show that example, I found it fascinating


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## Plasuma!!! (May 27, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Mon May 27 said:


> [...]Remote recording services as I see them are not means to replace studio orchestras. On the contrary, they are a stepstone that can help to re-discover the world of recording and collaboration.


That's some good insight there.

I will somewhat disagree with the notion of composers trying to replace musicians entirely - I think it's more the case that they want to become one themselves, but just don't like the idea of collaborating with others. It's very much a cultural paradigm shift, but not specific to music. Artists everywhere used to collaborate regularly before software was big, but the big deal now is being a one man show.

You can see this in other industries as well, video game development being one. Designers don't like relying on artists and programmers to see their project through, so they pick up those skills themselves in whatever limited way they can and use tools and prefabs to fill in gaps where other people would normally be.

Folks just don't get out much nowadays.


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## Casiquire (May 27, 2013)

I feel as though some of the bashing is unnecessary. Your own ears should always have the last word, not a sales pitch. If you go on the Christian's site and hear a sound that you want to work with (and it sounds like you'll have a lot of flexibility with that sound!) then go for it. If it's not something you want to work with for your particular project, then don't. It's really pretty simple. Every sales pitch will be full of promises--how many people out there bought a sample library based on the high expectations that its marketing established only to realize the limitations too late? At least in this situation you can hear it and choose if you like it or not, with the option to decline! Very few sample libraries offer something like that. So again your ears are the most important part of this. Hans has a point that some young artists may not yet have an ear for high quality orchestral sound, but the same can be said about the danger of purchasing literally any sample library. You have to learn how to make it sound right. Christian's providing another option, nothing more, nothing less, with a sales pitch that is no more misleading than any other sample library, except it's risk-free, try-before-you-buy, and saves hours of programming, and offers articulations no sample library can.

No I'm not affiliated with Christian Howe in any way, I've made no secret of my library of choice, I just think it's unfair to call out one person's marketing style while ignoring the rest of the off-color marketing going on. If you don't like a product or a marketing campaign, it's better to let your money do the talking and let others draw their own conclusions, especially if those conclusions are influenced by true experience rather than assumptions.


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## germancomponist (May 28, 2013)

zacnelson @ Tue May 28 said:


> germancomponist @ Wed May 22 said:
> 
> 
> > This reminds me to some erxperiments I did with samples in 2008. I added many solo violins to built a section. The actual performance was not great, but that was due to the limitations of the samples I had used, some of which were pretty awful.
> ...





> Question to you: did you do this with Akai Samplers?



Thanks! 

That was an interesting experiment. I had used only samples from different old libraries. EMU, AKAI, Garritan, PS AO, Motu, Miroslav Vitouš, VSL and what. I remember I did a lot with equalizers and reverb. I always experiment.... .


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## christianhowes (Jun 1, 2013)

The points Hans Zimmer has addressed which seem most relevant for composers on this forum seem to be:

Can high quality string recordings be achieved through remote, overdub teams?

Is this ethical?

Everyone agrees that there is a _difference_ between the sound of a string section recorded in one room, vs the sound of overdubbed parts all recorded separately. It's not entirely proven that one way is necessarily better than the other, although most people assume that putting players in one room is ideal. Someone referred to this as being related to an issue of "spatial cohesion". 

As HZ pointed out, there's nothing wrong with this idea in principle, i.e., one musician helping another, honest, good playing, collaborating online, etc... What's new about the Christian Howes Strings approach is that, instead of using one player to stack parts, we use a team of players. This can improve quality over the use of just one player's parts for obvious reasons.. Of course, anyone could do this. It's just that we were one of the first to think of it, and devote our energy more or less full time to string recording in this way.

Yes, this saves money, and of course, our goal is to achieve the best musical result, i.e., "the excellent" as you say...

Is it ethical? Am I wrong somehow to be "undercutting" orchestral players. I'm providing orchestral players with work. I can't see how this is unethical. Surely there's no point in going down this road...

Our marketing copy doesn't intend to mislead. We are merely letting people know that this method/resource offers one "competitive advantage" through cost and time savings. Anyone can avail themselves of this service, but it still provides a competitive advantage to those who do, much like a car or a laptop, or the latest time saving app on one's phone. But I completely understand that people are deluged with promotional messages, hence my posting in the commercial section. 

The truly interesting and relevant questions are in regards to the pros and cons of our methodology, and these are welcome, as this is a highly relevant "in between" solution for many composers lacking the budget to hire a full section and studio, especially those who would like an alternative to samples. Does "spatial cohesion" really matter?, and to what extent can this be overcome through techniques we use such as close micing, panning, varying mics, and creating other "human variations" through multiple instruments, articulations, and the use of other post production tools. And do the advantages we offer hold up? For example, there is often so much bleed and variation within a live string section that this creates a lot of work in post to clean up. Finally, does the difference in price make it worth it, if one assumes that we can theoretically achieve 90% of the quality of a live section at 20% the cost.

Whether you question the quality of our team's work without hearing more than a bit of one work sample is sort of beside the point. I encourage you to review other examples of our work (link below in signature) and am confident you will be impressed, as many others on this forum have been, with both the quality and range of work. Our strong ongoing relationships with many established composers, and our entire body of work samples, speak for themselves. The fact that we are making it less expensive for composers to record their works in no way changes that we are a team of highly committed, experienced musicians, just like most readers here. 

An interesting experiment would be to submit "a"-"b" comparisons of our work stacked up against samples and/or live sections...

For example, we'd welcome the chance to record a short cue of some of your work, Hans Zimmer, at no cost and allow people to see how it stands up against one of your L.A. sessions.

all the best to you 
chris


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## germancomponist (Jun 4, 2013)

Chris, I think you haven't got Han's message.

Read also between the lines!


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## guydoingmusic (Jun 4, 2013)

In the treble clef that would be F A C E -


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## HatDemon (Jun 11, 2013)

HZ-

I just want to say thank you for saying all that. As a violist trained orchestrally who knows many people in philharmonics and other orchestras that have seen their salaries, performance opportunities, and venues slashed (some very recently) through these attempts of committees to cut costs, it's so refreshing to be reminded that there are highly-regarded composers and producers that would rather see them as something other than a labor commodity.

Separately-

This is a very useful discussion and it's great to hear about it. The tips are very useful. There's something else to this I would be interested in hearing about, since we're doing whatever sampling I can do ourselves: things like size of room, proper mics, etc are important. Remote recording is dandy, but some people might like to know how they're going to be recording in the first place, and the recording equipment/venue itself could end up being more expensive than some of these sampling musicians can afford.

Making a big sound is great, but if we're trying to write with what we've got, it would be nice to see what we've got in the first place (and one can be gotten easily). Limitations can make some of the best advancement in terms of creativity, but I would still love to see techniques to take full advantage of those limitations.


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## mverta (Jun 11, 2013)

I think perhaps a necessary qualifier in all this is that whether doing this locally or remotely, recording sections separately is not favorable to every style of music. The more traditional symphonic scores have always been performed all at once, by a symphony, which is a cohesive, organic unit, and they are not only _used_ to playing together, and off of each other, but they are fundamentally _motivated_ by that aspect of it, as musicians. If you want to hear a top-call veteran orchestral session player grouse, feed them a couple of drinks and ask them about "striping." Don't say I didn't warn you. 

At my last session, I asked Shawn Murphy his feelings on this, and his basic take was that for traditional score-based material, while there are occasionally technical reasons which justify overdubs, letting the group do what they do - play together - is vastly preferred, and of course there have been no shortage of amazing scores (most of them, actually) done this way. It's obviously not necessary to stripe to get fantastic performances or quality recordings. It has become increasingly used _de facto_ principally by two groups 1) People who can't orchestrate, and thus can't achieve a good balance naturally and need fader control and/or who are trying to make a real group sound like their tragically imbalanced mock-up template, and 2) People who are doing truly hybridized music, where the production approach is more like pop music - it's about layers, and processing, and mixing.

For me, doing more traditional work, working remotely would remove a critical back-and-forth I do with the orchestra in shaping the material. Reading their body language and the feeling in the room; eavesdropping on the breaktime conversations, etc., is just something I take a lot of cues from, and it determines how I go about helping to get these ordinary people to do what they do extraordinarily well, on cue. Even the world's best players are not machines; they're people - they need coaxing, persuading, encouraging. After all the years of hearing them complain about striping, I couldn't really do a striped session and not know I was pissing off the people I was counting on to do their best. If it doesn't happen, I could hardly claim to be without fault.

But again, that's because I'm doing more traditional work. Hans' work, especially, is masterful in its balance between synth and acoustic layers, and I can't imagine getting that sound - or finding it necessary - to try and capture those layers in one pass. 

I think Hans' suggestion of having a small group of players anywhere in the process if that's all you can afford is a great one. No matter how small the group, if they're top players, in a top room, with a top engineer, you will learn more in an hour than in a year of study. And the bonus is your hybrid score will sound better. Given that you're doing this because you're starting out, let's say, I would just further encourage to be there personally, to learn the all-important human dynamics at work. As Hans' said: this is art; performed by artists. They don't come with a Play button; we have to create the environment which motivates them to do what they're best at doing, and we need to learn to do that ourselves, just as we need to know how to schmooze and sell ourselves before turning our fates over to agents or representatives.

Anyway, sorry if this seems a touch off-topic, but I think it's important to consider what you might be giving up by trying to do things remotely!


_Mike


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## garylionelli (Jun 11, 2013)

Wow, I'm still amazed at all the backlash against Christian and his company. Who cares how he worded his website? All this guy is trying to do is offer an alternative. That's it. Nothing more. Of course, of course, of course we all know recording all the players together on some of the best stages around the world is better. But anytime you have real live players performing a piece -- no matter what the circumstances -- it's better than using any of these lifeless sample libraries out there, that are all trying to outdo each other, and frankly, none are even close to live musicians. What kind of back and forth communication do you have with a sample library? None. The performances are etched in stone long ago. You can MIDI CC the piece to death and it's still going to be exactly that -- dead. I wish people would stop buying all these crummy libraries that are springing up like weeds, and get back real music. But most people on this forum have come to believe their musical world revolves around sample libraries. How screwed up is that? And for many, hearing sample library performances have become their only frame of reference. They have never worked with real live strings, and don't even know any better. So if we're going to talk about deception and misleading advertising, let's start with all these awful "deep sampled" sampled libraries making tons of money off of us, that don't even offer refunds! What Chris has going is at least a step in the right direction. The musicians he employs will, at the very least, be "aware" of the piece they are playing. Sample libraries are inert and have no emotion or connection to what they are "performing." We should all be looking to find new ways to work with live musicians and dump these sample libraries. If you can't afford to hire a group of 10 strings, then maybe you shouldn't take the job, or reorchestrate it for a group you can afford. And yes, for sure at least hire a few players to breath some life on top of the samples. In the end, at least try to find some way to break this reliance on samples. I know this is a rant against sample libraries more than anything else, but I do feel Chris' approach has its place in the discussion. There, now, I just took a deep breath and feel a lot better getting that out! Again, good luck Chris! (FYI, I have nothing to do with Chris or his company.)


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## mverta (Jun 12, 2013)

garylionelli @ Tue Jun 11 said:


> Wake up everyone, and find new ways to work with live musicians and dump these sample libraries...



Um, no?


I am both an outspoken critic of the limitations of samples (they're like fucking a really good blow-up doll version of your girlfriend - might fool someone from a distance, doesn't feel the same), _and_ a staunch supporter of them - they're better than shitty live musicians (yes, they are) and they're a fantastic tool for practicing orchestration on, for those of us who grew up in an era post having-an-orchestra-regularly-available-to-practice-with. 

Contexts have arisen in which orchestral instruments are merely part of a hybrid color; contexts which make unilateral use of acoustic instruments unnecessary. Many times, a recording of a string section playing a sustained note is identical to a sample, which is just another triggered recording. It is context dependent, and since such contexts exist, and given that samples are useful and here to stay, your position is unsupportable, though I suspect it comes from a good place.

I work with both; I prefer live musicians, when they're good ones. I've worked with bad ones - I'll take samples over that any day. The smartest move is to figure out what _is_ good about them; how you can use them creatively, and integrate them into your life if you're successful. We shouldn't turn our backs on a good tool just because it isn't right for every job. 

Hans' criticisms aren't about grammar; they're about misrepresentation, in his view. That's his take, and he's entitled to it, and his feeling that it preys upon newbies by dangling unrealistic promises in front of them can only come from a good place, as well. I think it's laughable to argue the best way to get a big sound with the guy who ushered in the Era of Epic, in the first place. (Damn you, Hans. I can't sleep for all the drums.)

Not that I think you're going to get much support on a virtual-instrument forum with your attitude, anyway... !


_Mike


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## garylionelli (Jun 12, 2013)

Ah, I had edited that "wake up" line out right before your patronizing post...

I work with samples all the time, and have for a long time. I'm simply speaking to the imbalance I've seen grow over the years. 

Sure there can be "building blocks" of sampled orchestral elements that can't be realized with a small group of live musicians, but there's usually something else in the piece that provides expression, and this is what I'm referring to.

(BTW, I don't know who you're talking to, but I'm not arguing with anybody on how to get a big sound!)

As far as bringing this up on a virtual-instrument forum, what better place?


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## mverta (Jun 12, 2013)

I suppose saying, "wake up everybody," could technically be called _speaking to an imbalance_, yes... As for where the best forum is to recommend abandoning samples, I suppose it depends on the reaction you're hoping to get. If you run with that here, you're likely to get a patronizing response (by which I assume you mean _any_ contrary response). Either that, or your threshold for what's patronizing is considerably lower than mine.

Either way, since you'd intended to edit that comment out of your post, I guess we both agree it was a poor choice of words. 

_Mike


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## garylionelli (Jun 12, 2013)

Best not to assume or guess...not likely we agree on much. But have to get ready now for an AM session -- with live players!


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## Guy Bacos (Jun 17, 2013)

mverta @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> I am both an outspoken critic of the limitations of samples (they're like [email protected]#king a really good blow-up doll version of your girlfriend - might fool someone from a distance, doesn't feel the same)....



I don't think anybody will contest that live musicians with skillful performers are always superior to any sample libraries, but I think this analogy is going a bit far... :roll:


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## garylionelli (Jun 17, 2013)

Ah Guy, but unless you've tried the blow-up version against the real thing (like apparently someone has) how could you say that?!?! (too silly, I know...)


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## Kejero (Jul 22, 2013)

garylionelli @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> What kind of back and forth communication do you have with a sample library? None. The performances are etched in stone long ago. You can MIDI CC the piece to death and it's still going to be exactly that -- dead.



I couldn't disagree more. I see virtual instruments the same way as "real instruments": it's something that requires practice and skill by whoever is playing it, but an instrument all the same. Sure, sample libraries always have their limitations, but so have musicians. Every instrument and 'musician', virtual or not, basically has a limited area of usability. When composing, you have a vision, you have a budget, and you have to find the best way to stay within both. In one situation a live performance is the best choice, in others you're better off with samples.

Not too long ago I was approached by a friend producer to replace the strings for a few songs where they originally had the strings recorded live by a... not-too-good player. A whole bunch of painfully programmed LASS stems was the perfect solution for him.

And just a few days ago I was in the opposite situation. I needed two traditional fiddle performances for the movie I'm currently working on, which has a very low budget. So I contacted Christian and he had both pieces promptly and professionally recorded and performed by a fiddle player who's experienced in the exact style I was looking for. While I sacrificed the ability to be present at the recording session (which, come on, how is this moment for every composer not THE best moment of the entire scoring process?  ), I can easily say that I could never have recorded these fiddle parts locally, at this quality, for such a low price.
I can only speak from this experience of course, but if you're on a very tight budget and you need a solo string performance, I'd easily recommend them. 

That said, I've personally never liked the sound of tracked solo performances to "emulate" an ensemble, let alone a "big sound". Call it a matter of taste perhaps. Each to his own, I'd say. When on a tight budget, I will always prefer to layer samples with a few live recordings, but as has been stated a few times before: you need a good player to reap any benefits (both a good live player and a good virtual "player"!). In Belgium, you easily pay around 350 euros for a session with one, good player. If I wanna get an 'ensemble', that sum quickly stacks up. I can see how a service like Christian, where he offers an 'ensemble' for less than the price of one local player, would be the next best thing if you just don't have the budget.


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## Casiquire (Jul 22, 2013)

Kejero @ Mon 22 Jul said:


> I needed two traditional fiddle performances for the movie I'm currently working on, which has a very low budget. So I contacted Christian and he had both pieces promptly and professionally recorded and performed by a fiddle player who's experienced in the exact style I was looking for. While I sacrificed the ability to be present at the recording session (which, come on, how is this moment for every composer not THE best moment of the entire scoring process?  ), I can easily say that I could never have recorded these fiddle parts locally, at this quality, for such a low price.
> I can only speak from this experience of course, but if you're on a very tight budget and you need a solo string performance, I'd easily recommend them.



People are so worked up about the "ensemble" debate that they forget that Christian also records solo instruments, string quartets, singers, etc.


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## JackoDrummer (Mar 11, 2014)

Check this out, I'm about to necro the **** out of this thread to say only that I'm a huge fan of both Mike and Christian's art as well as their valuable services... HZ, thanks for um, you know, being HZ. That is all...

oh wait..



garylionelli @ Wed Jun 12 said:


> it's better than using any of these lifeless sample libraries out there



Amen (mostly) - try being a drummer. So apparently this recent deluge of drum VI's never try to sleep with guitar players girlfriends/moms/sisters and apparently don't need booze or transpo to the session.. HOW DO THEY DO IT... /\~O


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## XT26 (Mar 11, 2014)

I See Christian Howe has taken the debate a little further on http://futurecomposer.com

I personally can't see the point in continuing to put down Hans opinions in such a way, unless it's about creating controversy to get publicity.


Oh well 

T


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## Casiquire (Mar 11, 2014)

So I need to reiterate that Christian Howe does soloists, vocalists, etc. again? It's more than just layered strings.


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