# Best orchestral woodwinds library as an upgrade from kontakt?



## mmango (Jan 7, 2016)

Hey all,
I've been looking to upgrade my woodwinds library. I compose music mainly production music (television and games) but occasionally I need to make mockups of classical ensembles.
I currently own Komplete, and I'm looking for higher quality woodwinds than the vsl sounds that came bundled in kontakt. The main choices I'm looking at now are:

VSL Special Edition: $75
VSL Woodwinds I Standard: $375 Full: $750
8dio Claire Winds Bundle: $650
Cinewinds Core: $350 Core+Pro: $650
Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds Silver: $250 Gold: $500 Platinum $800 (all are on sale now however)
Berlin Woodwinds: $500
Possibly EWQL symphonic orchestra, but I hear that's around the same quality as the VSL stuff in Kontakt.
Any thoughts? I'm hoping for something that isn't exclusive for classical music or exclusive to bombastic hollywood music, as I like to do both. Something flexible and customizable but also not to the point at which it's difficult to use.


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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 7, 2016)

I would get Cinewinds core out of what you have listed above. But if I were to offer a library that wasn't listed I'd go with Berlin Woodwinds every time. I have both Cinewinds and BWW because I always layer my libraries when writing, to add depth and human feel. however if I was forced to choose one winds library *God forbid* it'd be Berlin Woodwinds every time.


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## H.R. (Jan 7, 2016)

I love Berlin Woodwinds and I use it a lot. But for solo stuff, I have all the woodwinds from 8dio which is amazing.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jan 8, 2016)

Berlin woodwinds is setup in such a way that you have all seperate flutes, clarinets, etc for divisi.
And the sound is indeed very good. The same setup by VSL is a lot more costly.

However VSL also sounds very good.

If you need soloists the BWW main library is not always the best choice, as said by H.R.

You can for soloists choose from BWW expansions or VSL seperate instrument libraries.
With VSL I advise you to purchase MIRX as well with a venue, or venues of your choice as that will greatly enhance the blending with other libraries.
Also Vienna instruments Pro will be a help.

8Dio I cannot comment on.

The samplemodeling woodwinds is also an option but I don't know those either from experience.

EWH woodwinds will surely be good too, but then you will have to deal wth the Play engine ( sorry Jay ) and as far as I have come to know, it works better on PC's.

Wish you all the best in deciding what may fit best your needs.


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## Zelorkq (Jan 8, 2016)

CineWinds are definitely good and you have a huge arsenal in the Pro version if you need Ethnic winds.
VSL's strength has always been their Woodwinds so these are among the best out there, great samples, play-ability and as usual from VSL: consistent. Consistent articulations, consistent velocities, consistent dynamics, awesome VI Pro player etc;... how I hate inconsistent libraries 

... But for me it's Berlin Woodwinds hands down! (even though they aren't as consistent as VSL )
I absolutely love their sound and I have to tweak almost nothing to get *that* sound, be it Orchestral or Solo work.
Weird that y'all say BWW Solo aren't that great (Expansion B & C). I own BWW Main + Expansion A + Expansion B and I absolutely love the Solos in Expansion B, especially the Oboe and English Horn, imho the best out there! I simply haven't purchased Expansion C or D yet, maybe one day...
Remember that all expansions will bring the price up by quite a lot.

Sadly can't comment on 8Dio, but I always preferred BWW demos over 8Dio demos as they (BWW) sound more real.

Happy hunting


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## Rodney Money (Jan 8, 2016)

jbell said:


> Hey all,
> I've been looking to upgrade my woodwinds library. I compose music mainly production music (television and games) but occasionally I need to make mockups of classical ensembles.
> I currently own Komplete, and I'm looking for higher quality woodwinds than the vsl sounds that came bundled in kontakt. The main choices I'm looking at now are:
> 
> ...


Here you go, my friend, I did a quick comparison with the legato patches from CineWinds Core Flute and Orchestral Tools' Berlin Woodwinds' Flute 1. The CineWinds Flute is first, playing her lower 8va, then higher, and next the Berlin Flute plays the same music. I played each of them live with the same reverb: Spaces. https://app.box.com/s/leun6wbkthsik97n2y8ixe2slrq6ctzi


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## Vin (Jan 8, 2016)

VSL and Berlin Woodwinds as a close second.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 8, 2016)

HOW Silver is not very demanding on system resources, PC or Mac.


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## Lawson. (Jan 8, 2016)

Berlin Woodwinds, hands down.


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 8, 2016)

Berlin Woodwinds is hands down the best sounding orchestral woodwind library out there.


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## R.Cato (Jan 8, 2016)

Berlin Woodwinds Main for woodwind choir parts and the Exp B for Solo parts.


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## Paul T McGraw (Jan 8, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Here you go, my friend, I did a quick comparison with the legato patches from CineWinds Core Flute and Orchestral Tools' Berlin Woodwinds' Flute 1. The CineWinds Flute is first, playing her lower 8va, then higher, and next the Berlin Flute plays the same music. I played each of them live with the same reverb: Spaces. https://app.box.com/s/leun6wbkthsik97n2y8ixe2slrq6ctzi



This was really great of you to do this comparison. I was very surprised at how close the two are in sound. Of course, it may be my ears are not good enough. I am just a hobbyist. The BWW sounded just a bit richer, slightly more detailed and complex. But in an orchestral setting, not sure anyone could hear a difference. I have CineWinds, but thinking about BWW because they offer multiples of each instrument. Since a typical score is woodwinds in pairs or even threes, the different instruments would help on both divissi and unison parts. Right?


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## Rodney Money (Jan 8, 2016)

Paul T McGraw said:


> This was really great of you to do this comparison. I was very surprised at how close the two are in sound. Of course, it may be my ears are not good enough. I am just a hobbyist. The BWW sounded just a bit richer, slightly more detailed and complex. But in an orchestral setting, not sure anyone could hear a difference. I have CineWinds, but thinking about BWW because they offer multiples of each instrument. Since a typical score is woodwinds in pairs or even threes, the different instruments would help on both divissi and unison parts. Right?


My pleasure, just trying to be a blessing, lol. Yes, BWW would definitely help in terms of realism for a full orchestral setting where CineWinds simply has the solo woodwinds not counting the 2 oboes. But they only recorded another oboe soloist, because they felt the first oboe was not cinematic enough. The only instrument that the BWW series does not have that you can find in CineWinds Pro is Contrabass Clarinet which I love! It sounds so warm blended in with the tuba from CineBrass Pro.


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## ed buller (Jan 8, 2016)

if u want to replicate a standard triple winds score BWW IS the way to go. It's a fabulous library. The expansions are great too.

e


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## lucky909091 (Jan 8, 2016)

The Berlin Woodwinds sounds much more direct and "into your face" if you know what I mean. But the Cinesamples WW sounds fit better into an arrangment of full WW colors.

I also like the EW Woodwinds Diamond to lay them under the other flutes my arrangement.

And: have a look on the demos of Flute Consort from Spitfire Audio. I own them and they sound really good.

If you are a fan of 8Dio I can recommend their "Claire" series if you need some solo flutes. I ue them here and then to fit a solo flute into my arrangement.


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## neblix (Jan 8, 2016)

The problem with CineWinds is that there's a kind of "suction" quality to the legato scripting. Every transition kind of creates an unnatural volume curvature and tweaking the legato knobs like speed and volume don't really help.

It has been much improved in their latest update that adds a "Best Legato" mix preset, but I would venture to guess Berlin Woodwinds would probably beat it in tone, value, and performance.


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## Matt Riley (Jan 8, 2016)

In effort to ween myself off of PLAY (doesn't play well my Mac slave in VEP5), I've been purchasing replacements for the Hollywood series. I just bought Berlin Woodwinds this week and love them!


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jan 8, 2016)

Has anyone notified OT that we help them in their promotions? 

All those for BWW should deserve a fee


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## Lassi Tani (Jan 8, 2016)

I bought Berlin Woodwinds a year ago, when I read great reviews here. I can't be more happy with the library!


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## ed buller (Jan 8, 2016)

lucky909091 said:


> The Berlin Woodwinds sounds much more direct and "into your face" if you know what I mean. But the Cinesamples WW sounds fit better into an arrangment of full WW colors.
> 
> I also like the EW Woodwinds Diamond to lay them under the other flutes my arrangement.
> 
> ...



If you back off ( or drop entirely ) the close mics, and just use the room mics they sound very well placed. The close mics are VERY close. The only drawback is the expansions don't have the same mic settings ,which is a drag. This is NOT the case with the expansion strings. They do provide a very decent IR to add back the teldex room into the woodwind expansions. But i still prefer the full mic complement.

e


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## Chris Hein (Jan 8, 2016)

The new version Chris Hein - Orchestral Woodwinds 2.0 will be available in a few days:
http://www.chrishein.net/web/CH-Winds_Overview.html

2.0 has improved phase aligned samples for perfect x-fade blending between 6 dynamic layers.
Even the legato transitions have three dynamic layers.
Completely new design, re-tuned samples and many many other improvements.


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## mmango (Jan 8, 2016)

Wow, I never expected to get so many replies! Thanks everyone for all the great input.



Rodney Money said:


> Here you go, my friend, I did a quick comparison with the legato patches from CineWinds Core Flute and Orchestral Tools' Berlin Woodwinds' Flute 1. The CineWinds Flute is first, playing her lower 8va, then higher, and next the Berlin Flute plays the same music.



That comparison was really great thanks! I think I slightly prefer Berlin when they are compared, but I'm not positive.

So I think I've narrowed my choices down to VSL and Berlin. Any thoughts on this comparison specifically?


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## muk (Jan 8, 2016)

Maybe this is not so helpful because I don't have BWW and can't compare, but I'll share my experience nonetheless. When I started out there were a limited number of options to choose from, and so was my budget. I researched a lot, listened to demos, read reviews. In the end I decided to go with the VSL Special Edition and SE+ (adds more articulations). Knowing I could either upgrade in the future to the full instruments or add competitors products when the need arises.

Tell you what, up until now I never felt the need to upgrade. I didn't click with the SE strings at all, brass and percussion are good but not for everything for me. But with the SE Winds I'm utterly and completely satisfied (well, almost. See last block). True, I sometimes feel the urge to get shiny new tools, but if I'm honest with myself I didn't come to a point yet where I couldn't achieve something I wanted to achieve with just the SE winds. So, they are my trustee companions since a long time and have served me well. It's the only section where I haven't felt I was lacking somethingyet, or came to a point where I just couldn't get a phrase to sound how I wanted it to sound. I say they are a gem, and push well above their price, both in quality and versatility.

On a sidenote, the above remarks are somewhat less true for the SE Oboe. It is sampled to the same exacting quality as the other instruments, I just happen to not be entirely happy with it's timbre.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 8, 2016)

Let's put it like this: of all instrument types, library categories and pieces of virtual gear, the one area where I see no benefit in buying more stuff and have no interest in expanding on what I already have, it's the Woodwinds - because I have the VSL (mainly the big ones, but I use some SE ones as well). I'm always in for more strings, one can never have enough percussion, different options for all kinds of stuff, etc., - but those Woodwinds: IMO those are still as good as it gets. Absolutely love them.


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## Scamper (Jan 8, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> because I have the VSL (mainly the big ones, but I use some SE ones as well)



I'm thinking about getting the VSL SE Woodwinds. Doesn't the Special Edition instruments have a reduced number of dynamic layers? Couldn't find specifics about it. Do you have any experiences with that?

Moreover, I keep hearing about Berlin Woodwinds being the best, but while the Spitfire BML Woods also seem to be pretty good, they are barely mentioned anywhere.
Any opinions or experiences on Spitfire BML Woodwinds in comparison to BWW or others?


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## mducharme (Jan 8, 2016)

I love VSL SE winds, my only complaint being the modwheel crossfade. There are sometimes very awkward jumps that makes it a bit unusable, so instead I use standard velocity crossfade and ride the levels to compensate for the awkward sudden jumps between layers.

They sound fantastic though. At first I had the same complaint as muk regarding the SE oboe, but I found the right EQ settings and I've been extremely happy with it since.

You can hear my EQ'ed Oboe at the beginning of my track here:


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## chillbot (Jan 8, 2016)

The Roland U220 has a really nice flute and only $119!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roland-U-220-RS-PCM-MIDI-Sound-Module-80s-Vintage-Rack-Mount-Synth-/121859248239?hash=item1c5f60906f:g:4KQAAOSwYIhWjrn5


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 8, 2016)

Scamper said:


> I'm thinking about getting the VSL SE Woodwinds. Doesn't the Special Edition instruments have a reduced number of dynamic layers? Couldn't find specifics about it. Do you have any experiences with that?



The SEs generally have 1-2 layers less, and they're sampled in whole-tones, unlike the full libraries which are sampled chromatically. But I personally don't even find it that much of an issue. Crossing between velocity layers can be a bit abrupt here and there, but nothing very severe, and I can usually get around it quite OK by sculpting the lines not just with CC1, but also adjusting CC11. To me, the biggest benefit of the full libraries is the wealth of articulations. The SEs offer all the standard stuff, and one can already be quite expressive with them, because the patches are very playable and very tweakable. But having all the extras from the full versions really makes life easier - the pre-recorded dynamics, the repetition patches, etc. Less time micro-managing and sculpting velocity curves etc. speeds up the workflow.


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## Przemek K. (Jan 8, 2016)

Vsl woodwinds are good, but for a longer period of time I mostly replaced it with Chris Hein Orchestral Woodwinds. Alone the ability for seamlessly xfade because of the phase aligned samples makes it worth, and it can do so much more.


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## playz123 (Jan 8, 2016)

IMHO, BWW and Chris Hein are two of the best. I also add in some of 8DIO products from time to time.


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## bap_la_so_1 (Jan 8, 2016)

If you want the ability to write each line for each instruments (flute 1 2, oboe 1 2...), Berlin Ww for sure.
If you want ensemble sounds, Hollywoodwinds from cinesamples is great.
For solo stuffs, 8dio claire shines, cinewinds is also a good choice


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## ModalRealist (Jan 8, 2016)

For the bulk of choral woodwind writing, I'd say BWW, no question. Stick on the room mics and it's a lovely, blendable thing. Spend some time mixing mics and a splash of good-quality reverb and you can get a very convincing sound, in my view. (And who doesn't want a run builder, recorded runs, _and_ playable runs? And who doesn't want measured trills?) For front-and-centre solo parts, BWW's expansions or VSL, for sure.


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## H.R. (Jan 9, 2016)

Chris Hein said:


> The new version Chris Hein - Orchestral Woodwinds 2.0 will be available in a few days:
> http://www.chrishein.net/web/CH-Winds_Overview.html
> 
> 2.0 has improved phase aligned samples for perfect x-fade blending between 6 dynamic layers.
> ...



Didn't know about this. Awesome news. I love V1.


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## muk (Jan 9, 2016)

Great track, mducharme. I like the oboe as well. Care to share your eq settings? I'd really appreciate that.

Velocity layers are often not understood correctly, I find. The equation the more the better is not really true. As Jimmy Hellfire wrote, you can usually program around the crossfading points, but not always. And that's where more velocity layers can even be an obstacle. In an orchestral section settings you'd generally want more velocity layers, because the crossfading will/can be easily masked and the timbre sounds much more natural and in line with the dynamic. In a solo setting, however, the phasing can be exposed and you have to be careful to program around it. More velocity layers can complicate or even thwart that process altogether. I think that is why the BWW expansion woodwinds only have one single velocity layer. I have never heard anybody complain about that, so it seems you can get by fine with just one, though I don't know how they match dynamic and timbre.


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## Chris Hein (Jan 9, 2016)

muk said:


> Great track, mducharme. I like the oboe as well. Care to share your eq settings? I'd really appreciate that.
> 
> Velocity layers are often not understood correctly, I find. The equation the more the better is not really true.


Oh yes, I think it is true. Mostly because you don't have to use them, but if you need extreme dynamics its there.
If you have 8 dynamic layers spread across the 127 velocities, you'll usually play the middle range from layer 3-6.
Its actually hard to reach the lowest and highest velocities, but in extreme situation were you need that extra soft or loud tone character its great to have these dynamics.
In my libraries the loudest of the 6-8 velocities is often hard and scratchy and dirty.
I think this provides extra realism if you don't want the regular medium sound.
This VI goes to 11. 

Phasing is not an issue in ensemble instruments and even in solo instruments you can often ignore it if the instrument is surrounded by others.
But for a solo instrument which plays alone I couldn't live without my phase aligned samples anymore.

Chris Hein


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## Hannes (Jan 9, 2016)

Chris Hein said:


> The new version Chris Hein - Orchestral Woodwinds 2.0 will be available in a few days:
> http://www.chrishein.net/web/CH-Winds_Overview.html
> 
> 2.0 has improved phase aligned samples for perfect x-fade blending between 6 dynamic layers.
> ...



That's great! It contains pretty much everything I miss in most other libraries..
Hut ab! 

Just out of curiosity; do you plan on doing a string ensemble library in the future?

Cheers,
Hannes


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## mducharme (Jan 9, 2016)

muk said:


> Great track, mducharme. I like the oboe as well. Care to share your eq settings? I'd really appreciate that.



I'm using the EQ in vienna instruments, which makes it a bit hard to see the exact values, but I'm taking 1560 Hz down by 12 dB with a Q factor of 3.1. That seemed to remove the harsh edge of the timbre, at least in this register.


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## muk (Jan 10, 2016)

Thanks Michael. I'll experiment with that.


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## Lotias (Jan 11, 2017)

mducharme said:


> I love VSL SE winds, my only complaint being the modwheel crossfade. There are sometimes very awkward jumps that makes it a bit unusable, so instead I use standard velocity crossfade and ride the levels to compensate for the awkward sudden jumps between layers.
> 
> They sound fantastic though. At first I had the same complaint as muk regarding the SE oboe, but I found the right EQ settings and I've been extremely happy with it since.
> 
> You can hear my EQ'ed Oboe at the beginning of my track here:



Yeah, my only problem with a lot of libraries... crossfades are not always so good. I wish everyone had whatever Chris Hein has to phase-align samples.


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## evilantal (Jan 12, 2017)

robgb said:


> If you're going to buy VSL Special Edition woodwinds, you might simply consider looking at the VSL legacy instruments included in Kontakt. Mod wheel crossfades, and you can add functionality with WIPS scripts. I completely redid them (including new graphics) for my private library and saved myself a considerable amount of cash. They sound great.



Cool!
Would you be willing to share those nki's?

Should be ok, since everyone that owns Kontakt already owns the sample content, right?


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## JTJohnson (Mar 5, 2017)

evilantal said:


> Cool!
> Would you be willing to share those nki's?
> 
> Should be ok, since everyone that owns Kontakt already owns the sample content, right?


 What did you end up getting in the end and how are you finding the library?


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## evilantal (Mar 6, 2017)

JTJohnson said:


> What did you end up getting in the end and how are you finding the library?



I ended up getting nothing in the end.
I decided I didn't _really_ need an upgrade to my woodwinds right away and budget was tight. So I decided I could get by using the Factory Library winds with Alpine Project instruments a bit longer.

The libraries I seriously considered and almost pulled the trigger on were Chris Hein Orchestral Woodwinds Compact (on the 2-for1 Best Service deal), Auddict Master Woodwinds (on the 50% deal) and VSL Special Edition Vol. 1 Woodwinds.


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## Tekkera (Mar 7, 2017)

Berlin


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## tav.one (Mar 8, 2017)

Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds would be my upgrade from Kontakt library.


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