# After all this time, PLAY still doesn't cut it?!



## Simon Ravn (Dec 30, 2009)

Soooo I went ahead and took advantage of the great Soundsonline Holiday offer (3 for 1) and got myself a couple of PLAY libraries, including the brilliant sounding QL Pianos. I had sworn not to get involved with PLAY libraries again after SD2, but I thought "1 year has passed, they must have gotten a long way now and PLAY must be working". 

How wrong I was. I was playing around for hours with Vienna Ensemble Pro and Kontakt 3.5 in Logic on my Mac Pro. Not a hitch or crash in sight. Then I wanted to try out some of my new PLAY patches. Added an instance to Logic. As soon as I hit "Browser" - boom, beachball, hang, and Logic was dead. I thought I'd give it another go. Same thing. Then I tried something else, adding it to VE Pro (something I read didn't work yet) and boy were they right. PLAY showed up with a screwed up displays of numeric controls and VE Pro popped up saying I should remove this AU.

Then I tried starting PLAY in stand alone mode. I got far enough to load up a Bosendorfer piano and play around with it for 15 minutes or so. Then I hit some control that PLAY didn't like, and boom-CRASH again. 

And yes, this is with the newest version of PLAY. When will Doug and Co. get their act together and fix this piece of software? The fact that it totally screws up in VE Pro like that where all my other plugins work must also tell a story. Something is seriously wrong with this app., it doesn't seem to be coded following the AU/VST specs. If only Nick and Doug would be men enough to admit that PLAY is problematic and doesn't work as it should, they could start making Kontakt versions again and I would be happy.

Anyone else having these kind of issues, feeling that PLAY is like a fragile piece of glass, if you touch it too much or in the wrong places (don't get any naughty thoughts now!) it will break?

I really wish it would work. There are many great samples there and I want to be able to use them. But at this point PLAY is still almost useless to me.


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## bryla (Dec 30, 2009)

Hej Simon

Se min post her:
http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight=


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 30, 2009)

Bryla, got it... I can see that I am not alone.... Nick - Doug, when the h*ll is this piece of software (POS??) gonna work? I really WANT it to, because of the great samples you created to use with PLAY, but shouldn't you bite the apple and redeem all of your angry customers who can't get it working - and create KONTAKT versions of it? Kontakt works like a charm here, never ever crashes and can load a zillion GB's of samples with its memory server. 

Bidule... is not the answer. I am not going to run MIDI in and out of my sequencer and then also having the trouble of running audio from Bidule to Logic (somehow) etc. It's a stupid, cumbersome workaround. PLAY seems sloppily coded by someone who doesn't really know what he's doing. Or maybe he's too much of a nerd (Amiga/C64 kind of coder) who goes his own ways, not following the guidelines and this is fine for some setups, just not everybodys. It seems very "coderish" in the way it can crash and stop responding in so many different situations. I am sure the code is a mess.


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## bryla (Dec 30, 2009)

What OS are you on?


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## Simon Ravn (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry, I am on 10.5.8 (Leopard).


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## Ed (Dec 30, 2009)

But on PC's it works better right?


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## bryla (Dec 30, 2009)

Bummer... I'm on 10.6.2 and thought the bug in 1.2.5 was limited to Snow Leopard

You are using 1.2.5 right?


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## Peter Alexander (Dec 30, 2009)

Simon Ravn @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> Sorry, I am on 10.5.8 (Leopard).



Simon, write down your exact system specs including audio card and all audio software running on your system. 

When you were running PLAY, did you also have VE Pro running in the background, too?

If yes, try running PLAY in standalone without VE Pro running at all, and tell me what happens.

Peter


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## rob morsberger (Dec 30, 2009)

That play and ve pro cannot play nicely in logic is well known, however...
my understanding is that the latest beta of VE Pro has fixed this issue.


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2009)

reid @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> josejherring @ 30th December said:
> 
> 
> > ...... but I really think that it's time for EW to turn the code over to some sort of really top notch pro software developer and come out with Play2.
> ...



:lol:


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## chimuelo (Dec 30, 2009)

I can vouge for Kontakt's stability too.
Gigastudio for years, never a crash once. Switched to K2 for obvious reasons and while using Bidule and GVI to help me glide into K2 I have never had a hiccup live yet. 3.0 is stable as the sunrise too. Can't wait for 4.0.
I also like the PLAY instruments but it seems as though only the guys doing major motion pictures get the working versions.


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## Hal (Dec 30, 2009)

josejherring @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> reid @ Wed Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ 30th December said:
> ...



oups hehe

Working very fine here
on my slave
vista 64
RME
to:
Cubase 5-64
vista 64

it wroked before with fx teleport
and now working with MOL

works well only a little problem with the interface graphics from time to time that might not be related to play.

i never trued it on My DAW
and i didnt try the newest play update eiter thats an old play version.


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2009)

I'll try to find an earlier version and give it another go.

Jose


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## Pedro Camacho (Dec 30, 2009)

chimuelo @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> I also like the PLAY instruments but it seems as though only the guys doing major motion pictures get the working versions.



Major motion pictures Composers mainly use SD2 and I know lots of them that hired a Kontakt programmer / scripter (or Do it yourself method) and changed SD2 to Kontakt.


We have a guy here that also did it.

I also know others who converted other Play Libs to Kontakt.


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## José Herring (Dec 30, 2009)

Pedro Camacho @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> chimuelo @ Wed Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > I also like the PLAY instruments but it seems as though only the guys doing major motion pictures get the working versions.
> ...



Technically speaking how difficult is it to do this? With multiple layers and round robins I'm wondering if it could be done in a reasonable amount of time. I am thinking about doing this with SD2.


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## synthetic (Dec 30, 2009)

Autosampler could do this for EXS format. You would have all of the WAV files to make a Kontakt instrument.


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## NYC Composer (Dec 30, 2009)

Play works completely fine for me (not within Ve Pro, though).

Mac Pro 2.8 dual quadcore Harpertown, 18 gig RAM, 10.62 Snow Leopard, Cubase 5.1.1.
It also worked fine on Leopard.

I have 17-18 instances running on my orchestral template, most of them using Master programs. Anecdotal evidence has suggested to me that running more instances with less load in each helps Cubase cycle through the cores, which is dumb , but I hope Steinberg improves multicore performance/latency soon. I often have to run at 512.

As far as I can tell from the sketchy data, your problem involves incompatibilities between your version of Logic and Play, or your specific computer. I can tell you I experience none of your stated problems. I would suggest you post your total specs and let some of the fine people here help you troubleshoot.


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## Pietro (Dec 30, 2009)

PLAY is doing fine over here, on a PC with XP x64 and Cubase 4/5 32/64bit.

Though, I got totally spoiled by Kontakt 3.5. "Fine" is just not good enough anymore - and I mean performance mostly.

- Piotr


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## noiseboyuk (Dec 30, 2009)

IHMO anyone with serious performance issues should also register at soundsonline and use the support section, along with a ticket. I think it serves two purposes - first, a greater public awareness of the issues helps light the fire under the dev's feet, and second I've found it essential in diagnosing problems.

In earlier versions of Play there were several problems that got diagnosed communally by the forum (exactly who got affected and how), and once diagnosed got fixed relatively quickly. I remember one issue with multitimbral instruments robbing each others voice limits - it wasn't obvious what was going on initially, but together we really nailed it down.

Some may argue that this isn't our job to fix bugs, but if it means my software works, I'm in!


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## Ian Livingstone (Dec 31, 2009)

Pedro - just for the record I didn't "convert" - that implies something slightly dodgy, I simple re-sampled a handful of my favourite patches from SD2 with the help of Redmatica Keymap.

I had big problems on the initial release of SD2 on PC, so it was a quick way of getting some cool new sounds into the project I was working on at the time until EW sorted out the issues. But since Playv1.2 everything's been cool for me and have gone back to using it as intended. SD2 is the only Play library I own though - would buy the entire catalogue if they converted it to Kontakt format as that's what I learnt my editing chops on, but I can respect EW's reasons for keeping it proprietary.

Ian


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## IFM (Dec 31, 2009)

Play is working here but my biggest problem with it is its lack of customization. I just can't believe they released a product that doesn't allow you to create your own key switches and the ones they provide (in EWQLSO at least) don't even have DFX patches? 

Play Pro isn't out and won't be out even when HS is released. I just wish I could 'side grade' my Play Plat to Kontakt. Even the faked legato I was using in K2 (Gold) sounded better that Play's.


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## synergy543 (Dec 31, 2009)

Think of the money East West could make selling side-grades to Kontakt versions. The demand would be absolutely HUGE. I'll bet they'd make more money selling Kontakt versions than they ever will selling HS.

PLAY is already established so it wouldn't affect its standing (regardless of what you think of it) or development. This would be FREE money for Doug and Nick without conceding anything.


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## José Herring (Dec 31, 2009)

Speaking of HS the release date is on January 13th. No demos yet. I'm half expecting the count down clock to start counting up when January 13th comes.

Anybody got any news on this? Maybe a major upgrade to Play will come with it?

Jose


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## IFM (Dec 31, 2009)

I already asked if play pro was coming at the same time as HS and Doug said no but shortly. :(


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## rob morsberger (Jan 1, 2010)

So I just downloaded the latest public beta of VE Pro and I can confirm that, in Logic,
one can happily run VE Pro and Play together without the crashes we have all been experiencing before this update. Kudos to VSL.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 1, 2010)

Thanks for the great news, Rob! =o


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 1, 2010)

Thanks for the great news, Rob! =o


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## Polarity (Jan 2, 2010)

With the 4780 public beta of VEPRO Play stopped to work correctly on my system (XP 32bit SP3, Scope cards, Cubase 4), as its GUI is frozen as you load the plugin, and become blank/white if you switch among channels.
The plugin plays sounds if you can load a multi in it (I made to save one with the VEPRO plugin bar with the previous version): so it's just an issue of the GUI, and not a sound engine issue.

Getting back to the 4686 official release Play works again right for me.
But I'm on Windows XP, not on MAc.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 2, 2010)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Dec 30 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Wed Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I am on 10.5.8 (Leopard).
> ...



Hi Peter.

Mac Pro (2006) 2x2.66, 8 GB RAM, OS 10.5.8, MOTU PCIe-424 card, and Logic (8.0.2) is the only "audio software running". I can make PLAY crash standalone as well, but it seems much worse as a plugin.

May I mention again that all my other plugins run 24/7 without any problems. So even though it would be convenient to tell me that something is wrong with my system, there isn't. Something is wrong with PLAY.

On a positive note I want to tell Nick and Doug that QL pianos is really awesome. Hands down the best piano library I own and the ability to mix the mic settings truely rocks. Just a shame it is hosted in PLAY...


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 2, 2010)

@Simon - 

For PLAY running standalone in Logic:
http://soniccontrol.tv/2009/08/22/play-in-standalone-with-logic/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2009/08/22/play- ... ith-logic/)


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## Pedro Camacho (Jan 2, 2010)

Ian Livingstone @ Thu Dec 31 said:


> but I can respect EW's reasons for keeping it proprietary.
> 
> Ian



I think the main thing is to be dongle protected and I think Kontakt should also go that way. Kontakt is too vulnerable as it is right now, but it is also the one with the largest user base so it is a necessary risk for developers.

Anyway it should be a question of time until NI makes Kontakt Syncrosoft protected.


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2010)

Could it be a reason that some devs don`t like it when users edit their libs in Kontakt?


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## Nickie Fønshauge (Jan 3, 2010)

No, Gunther, that shouldn't be the reason. You can lock a KP library so nobody can edit it.


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## germancomponist (Jan 3, 2010)

Oops, forgot about this.

Then it must be a money question.... . But, to built a new sampler like PLAY, I think this costs also much much money and also many nerves.


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## JohnG (Jan 3, 2010)

PLAY's working fine here, on both Mac and PC. I am still using Tiger OS on my (Intel) Mac. 

Using 64 bit PLAY on PCs, with Plogue's Bidule as the host.

I have not had problems that the Soundsonline help hasn't been able to solve pretty quickly.


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## synergy543 (Jan 3, 2010)

Nickie Fønshauge @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> You can lock a KP library so nobody can edit it.


Yes, however anybody can simply play scales in their sequencer at different velocities and the problem notes or library can be edited. 
Redmatica makes http://redmatica.com/Redmatica/AutoSampler2.html (software specifically to do this).

However why bother if the library is cost-effective, has additional programming, and works well?

One great example where a user might want to edit would be in creating Sibelius versions of the library. Some developers do not seem to care about providing consistent volume levels between different patches as you switch between different articulations. In cases such as this, it would be nice to be able to edit the original patches (which Sibelius sees).


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## Hardy Heern (Jan 3, 2010)

It strikes me that the real root of these problems might go right back to the feet of NI.

A lot of us invested in Kontakt. It's a _very _fine sampler by all accounts. Why on earth would NI put our investment in their product at risk?

Logically, NI must have been playing business hardball with their customers, like EWQL and Garritan. Surely, there _must _have been something terribly wrong with NI's business tactics that these companies were forced to go into the _incredibly _risky business of software development when Kontakt _already _existed. It's hurt all of us who invested in Kontakt in one way or another.

Does anyone know what it was that NI did which so upset the sample developers???? 
I could guess:-

1 They were charging far too much license money for their players.
2 They were too slow with their tayloring of interfaces for the developers
3 They weren't dealing with the pirate issue
4 They were, effectively, going into the VI sample business themselves, (they have huge and increasingly effective attached libraries these days), which might have irritated EWQL and Garritan etc
5 Did all this add up to arrogance and over confidence to the point where EWQL and Garritan said "to hell with this, we'll do our own at any cost?"
6 Were they perceived as favouring one developer to the irritation of the other?

All us users who have invested sums in both sides have been put at risk. The sample developers have gone down the very uncertòvË   ½vË   ½vË   ½vË   ½vË   ½vË   ½ vË   ½!vÌ   ½"vÌ   ½#vÌ   ½$vÌ   ½%vÌ   ½&vÌ   ½'vÌ   ½(vÌ   ½)vÌ   ½*vÌ   ½+vÌ   ½,vÌ   ½-vÌ   ½.vÌ   ½/vÌ   ½0vÌ   ½1vÌ   ½2vÌ   ½3vÌ   ½4vÌ   ½5vÌ   ½6vÌ   ½7vÌ   ½8vÌ   ½9vÌ   ½:vÌ   ½;vÌ   ½<vÌ   ½=vÌ   ½>vÌ   ½?vÌ   ½@vÌ   ½AvÌ   ½BvÌ   ½CvÌ   ½DvÌ   ½EvÌ   ½FvÌ   ½GvÌ   ½HvÌ   ½IvÌ   ½JvÌ   ½KvÌ   ½LvÌ   ½MvÌ   ½NvÌ   ½OvÌ   ½PvÌ   ½QvÌ   ½RvÌ   ½SvÌ   ½TvÌ   ½UvÌ   ½VvÌ   ½WvÌ   ½XvÌ   ½YvÌ   ½ZvÌ   ½[vÌ   ½\vÌ   ½]vÌ   ½^vÌ   ½_vÌ   ½`vÌ   ½avÌ   ½bvÌ   ½cvÌ   ½dvÌ   ½evÌ   ½fvÌ   ½gvÌ   ½hvÌ   ½ivÌ   ½jvÌ   ½kvÌ   ½lvÌ   ½mvÌ   ½nvÌ   ½ovÌ   ½pvÌ   ½qvÌ   ½rvÌ   ½svÌ   ½tvÌ   ½uvÌ   ½vvÌ   ½wvÌ   ½xvÌ   ½yvÌ   ½zvÌ   ½{vÌ   ½|vÌ   ½}vÌ   ½~vÌ   ½vÌ   ½€vÌ   ½vÌ   ½‚vÌ   ½ƒvÌ   ½„vÌ   ½…vÌ   ½†vÌ   ½‡vÌ   ½ˆvÌ   ½‰vÌ   ½Š              òvÌ   ½ŒvÌ   ½vÌ   ½ŽvÌ   ½vÌ   ½vÌ   ½‘vÌ   ½’vÌ   ½“vÌ   ½”vÌ   ½•vÌ   ½–vÌ   ½—vÌ   ½˜vÌ   ½™vÌ   ½švÌ   ½›vÌ   ½œvÌ   ½vÌ   ½žvÌ   ½ŸvÌ   ½ vÌ   ½¡vÌ   ½¢vÌ   ½£vÌ   ½¤vÌ   ½¥vÌ   ½¦vÌ   ½§vÌ   ½¨vÌ   ½©vÌ   ½ªvÌ   ½«vÌ   ½¬vÌ   ½­vÌ   ½®vÌ   ½¯vÌ   ½°vÌ   ½±vÍ   ½²vÍ   ½³vÍ   ½´vÍ   ½µvÍ   ½¶vÍ   ½·vÍ   ½¸vÍ   ½¹vÍ   ½ºvÍ   ½»vÍ   ½¼vÍ   ½½vÍ   ½¾vÍ   ½¿vÍ   ½ÀvÍ   ½ÁvÍ   ½ÂvÍ   ½ÃvÍ   ½ÄvÍ   ½ÅvÍ   ½ÆvÍ   ½ÇvÍ   ½ÈvÍ   ½ÉvÍ   ½ÊvÍ   ½ËvÍ   ½ÌvÍ   ½ÍvÍ   ½ÎvÍ   ½ÏvÍ   ½ÐvÍ   ½ÑvÍ   ½ÒvÍ   ½ÓvÍ   ½ÔvÍ   ½ÕvÍ   ½ÖvÍ   ½×vÍ   ½ØvÍ   ½ÙvÍ   ½ÚvÍ   ½ÛvÍ   ½ÜvÍ   ½ÝvÍ   ½ÞvÍ   ½ßvÍ   ½àvÍ   ½ávÍ   ½âvÍ   ½ãvÍ   ½ävÍ   ½åvÍ   ½ævÍ   ½çvÍ   ½èvÍ   ½évÍ   ½êvÍ   ½ëvÍ   ½ìvÍ   ½ívÍ   ½îvÍ   ½ïvÍ   ½ðvÍ   ½ñvÍ   ½òvÍ   ½óvÍ   ½ôvÍ   ½õvÍ   ½övÍ   ½÷vÍ   ½øvÍ   ½ùvÍ   ½úvÍ   ½û              òvÍ   ½ývÍ   ½þvÍ   ½ÿvÍ   ½ vÍ   ½vÍ   ½vÍ   ½vÍ   ½vÍ   ½vÍ   ½vÍ   ½vÍ   ½vÍ   ½ vÍ   ½
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## Andrew Aversa (Jan 3, 2010)

> 1 They were charging far too much license money for their players.
> 2 They were too slow with their tayloring of interfaces for the developers
> 3 They weren't dealing with the pirate issue
> 4 They were, effectively, going into the VI sample business themselves, (they have huge and increasingly effective attached libraries these days), which might have irritated EWQL and Garritan etc
> ...



From personal experience...

1. I don't think this could have been a factor. The license fees were never extravagant, though they have been (and still are) too high for smaller developers like ISW, Orange Tree, Cinesamples, etc. For EW/Garritan though, there's no way the NI license fees were higher than the development cost of creating an *entirely new sampler*. I just don't buy it. Creating new software takes a ton of time and money, not to mention maintaining it.

2. I don't see how this could be possible. Kontakt's editing interface is pretty top notch and always has been.

3. I could see this being the case for East West - as PLAY uses a dongle - but ARIA doesn't, right? No dongle = just as vulnerable.

4. I doubt this was a factor. In fact NI licenses a lot of content from developers both small and large. Besides, NOT putting your samples into Kontakt Player would hardly stop NI from developing their own Kore Soundpacks and expanding Kontakts own library...

5. Again, I highly doubt it. I've dealt with NI. I've also dealt with TASCAM. NI was infinitely more approachable at the height of the Kontakt vs. Giga wars. If anyone, TASCAM/Giga was unapproachable and arrogant, but not NI.

6. Possible, but unlikely. How could NI favor one over another, and what would the benefit be of doing that?

I think it's ridiculous that many developers have decided to make their own samplers. It does needlessly fragment the market and I think it's really all on the developer's to answer for that. NO sampler out there matches the power of Kontakt. Period. Ever since Kontakt 2, NI has taken the lead in the sampling world and kept it, thanks to the ridiculously powerful scripting engine. Halion, EXS, Aria, GS3/GS4, simply nothing compares. So, any developer making their own sampler is really just reinventing the wheel and doing it worse, unless they can possibly top the Kontakt feature set (no one has come even close, with one exception below.)

I can understand Spectrasonics' decision to create their own VIs because Spectrasonics has always been pushing the boundary of sampling and Eric's approach to sound design has required more than a traditional sampler can offer. Omnisphere is not necessarily as powerful a sampler as Kontakt, but it adds an entire synthesis engine on top, and the end result is arguably as powerful (if not moreso, for certain purposes.) But things like PLAY and Aria aren't adding anything new to the table. Their existence is pointless.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 3, 2010)

Pzy-Clone, there's nothing odd or mysterious about it! EW sells EWQLSOs to Pro Tools users, Digidesign has an orchestral library for Structure.

Play works very well these days, by the way. It uses some more CPU than Kontakt, but it streams its ass off without clicking. I've not been able to make QL Pianos gag with both forearms on my 2008 8-core Mac.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 3, 2010)

Play is still not working with Ve-Pro here. I have installed the latest versions of both Play and Ve-Pro into my Mac.


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## rob morsberger (Jan 3, 2010)

Hi Craig, I'm not sure what you mean. Play still doesn't work in VE Pro. Is that what you mean? EW seems uninterested in getting that to happen for users, as far as I can tell. What has changed is that you can run Play AND VE Pro in your host sequencer at the same time, which previously was not possible (at least in Logic) without Play crashing.


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## Hardy Heern (Jan 4, 2010)

> 1. I don't think this could have been a factor. The license fees were never extravagant, though they have been (and still are) too high for smaller developers like ISW, Orange Tree, Cinesamples, etc. For EW/Garritan though, there's no way the NI license fees were higher than the development cost of creating an *entirely new sampler*. I just don't buy it. Creating new software takes a ton of time and money, not to mention maintaining it.
> 
> 2. I don't see how this could be possible. Kontakt's editing interface is pretty top notch and always has been.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your remarks Andrew but you haven't actually said what _you _think the reasons could be!  All you've said is why _my _suggestions are unlikely reasons. 

Obviously, there, sure as hell, _is _a reason for both of them to go off and 'roll their own' samplers....do you have any ideas?

Cheers

Frank


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## Hardy Heern (Jan 4, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Play works very well these days, by the way. It uses some more CPU than Kontakt, but it streams its ass off without clicking. I've not been able to make QL Pianos gag with both forearms on my 2008 8-core Mac.



Why would QL pianos gag just because you were resting both forearms on your 2008 8-core envy Mac.

Good to hear that Play's working so well for you but, due to the very small percentage of Mac users, is what happens on a Mac very relevant to the majority? (thinks, that should get him going.....) 

Frank


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 4, 2010)

My money for the reason is the money. Andrew points out that the costs for small developers are too high, but I don't know why the laws of economics don't also apply to the bigger developers! EWQL had to give a part of everything they earned to NI, and now they don't. I don't think its tooo much of a stretch to figure that this could be a reason, eh?


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2010)

rob morsberger @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Hi Craig, I'm not sure what you mean. Play still doesn't work in VE Pro. Is that what you mean? EW seems uninterested in getting that to happen for users, as far as I can tell. What has changed is that you can run Play AND VE Pro in your host sequencer at the same time, which previously was not possible (at least in Logic) without Play crashing.



Play had promised audio and midi over LAN. I don't think EW much cares about playing nice with VE Pro especially if they are still planning some of the same features.

Btw I did figure out what was happening in my system. Play wasn't playing nice with Alchemy. Why I can't figure as everything else I own seems to work well together.

I think in the end if we really like Play products that a dedicated Play machine may be the only really viable solution for a lot of us.

Jose


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## Olias (Jan 4, 2010)

josejherring @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> Play had promised audio and midi over LAN. I don't think EW much cares about playing nice with VE Pro especially if they are still planning some of the same features



Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that PLAY's promised "network control" was only for controlling the UI over the network, not for MIDI or LAN. Doug always seems to talk about how the additional latency (doubled?) for audio over LAN is unacceptable.

And as for PLAY not playing nice, I just looked at the change logs for VE Pro. There are plenty of plugins that have problems with VE Pro. PLAY just happens to be the (probably?) most widespread of them.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2010)

Olias @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Play had promised audio and midi over LAN. I don't think EW much cares about playing nice with VE Pro especially if they are still planning some of the same features
> ...



Maybe I miss read that. I thought that "advanced network control" meant more than just tweaking the gui. 

Well more power to them. Great libraries. Mediocre player. I'm sticking mostly to Kontakt stuff these days anyways. 

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 4, 2010)

> I was under the impression that PLAY's promised "network control" was only for controlling the UI over the network, not for MIDI or LAN



Right, it was going to be sort of like a program change that caused it to load remotely. Doug doesn't like the idea of bringing the audio back into your DAW because of the additional latency. But I think he came to that conclusion before VE Pro.


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## José Herring (Jan 4, 2010)

I still have to run VEPro at 2x latency for it work without dropouts. Though I am running it on a very underpowered machine. Anybody do it with no latency?

Jose


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 4, 2010)

Two buffers is the default, and if you're running your interface at 128 that's only about 5 milliseconds of latency.


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## Olias (Jan 5, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> Two buffers is the default, and if you're running your interface at 128 that's only about 5 milliseconds of latency.



Less than the latency from French horn #1 to French horn #6! :shock:


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## JohnG (Jan 5, 2010)

and only 1/100 of the latency between Viola 1 and Viola 8...


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## bigdog (Jan 5, 2010)

Regarding VE Pro and Play, when I asked VSL tech support if there was any progress on getting it to work (does not work for me either) here was their reply

"unfortunately EastWest doesn´t want to answer our many requests about a corporation in fixing this bug. We have changed everything we could in our code (so at least you can run EW PLAY and VE PRO in the same sequencer at the same time), but we will need some changes from EW to make this work.
We´re still hoping and open, but unfortunately no other progress has been made..."

loks like the ball is in EW's court. Sounds like a stalemate


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## oldbrian (Jan 5, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> Olias @ Mon Jan 04 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Mon Jan 04 said:
> ...



As far as I can understand it does mean more than just "tweaking the GUI" - MIDI and other control information surely will be sent, the real difference is that audio won't be travelling all around the network. Every slave and the master will all route their audio to a mixer. At least that's my impression, check Doug's reply in one of those everlasting Play Networking/VE Pro threads: http://soundsonline-forums.com/showpost.php?p=205602&postcount=232.


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## germancomponist (Jan 5, 2010)

bigdog @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> Regarding VE Pro and Play, when I asked VSL tech support if there was any progress on getting it to work (does not work for me either) here was their reply
> 
> "unfortunately EastWest doesn´t want to answer our many requests about a corporation in fixing this bug. We have changed everything we could in our code (so at least you can run EW PLAY and VE PRO in the same sequencer at the same time), but we will need some changes from EW to make this work.
> We´re still hoping and open, but unfortunately no other progress has been made..."
> ...



I was sure about this without knowing it..... . 

I can understand the point from EW, but, I am wondering what will happen in the future... .


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 5, 2010)

bigdog @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> Regarding VE Pro and Play, when I asked VSL tech support if there was any progress on getting it to work (does not work for me either) here was their reply
> 
> "unfortunately EastWest doesn´t want to answer our many requests about a corporation in fixing this bug. We have changed everything we could in our code (so at least you can run EW PLAY and VE PRO in the same sequencer at the same time), but we will need some changes from EW to make this work.
> We´re still hoping and open, but unfortunately no other progress has been made..."
> ...



Thanks for posting that. I'd be surprised if EWQL did anything else from here on in. I think Doug was pretty clear in the EWQL forum - he's not remotely interested in their customer's issues with VE Pro.

As others have pointed out, they have their own network player shortly, and also VE Pro comes with the (very good) Epic Orchestra, so in their eyes they're just feeding the competition - indeed, why should they? However, one unintented side effect is that it might further skew people away from Play libs and towards Kontakt (and other players). Of course if Hollywood Strings blows away all comers, then fair enough. But imagining the potential problems does make me nervous, I'll be watching the first reports very carefully.... whereas LASS, for example, just works (incidentally, I've decided the three words "it just works" are the most important in VI land!)

I know I've found it relatively easy to resist the recent promotions...


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## LFO (Jan 5, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> I know I've found it relatively easy to resist the recent promotions...



That is exactly my sentiment. EWQL not wanting to fix their issues with VE Pro is a disconcerting demonstration of lack of caring for their customers. First we have multiple samplers coming out, now its going to be network integration hosts also? The break points being introduced make my head want to explode.

Imagine....you want to run some EWQL, VSL, Symphobia and GSO (Garritan Orchestral Strings). You have 4 libraries all with 4 different hosts. Now you want to be able to off load some work to a second box. EWQL , OmniSphere and Drums of War will go on box 2. Now you've added two audio over network hosts. Can you imagine the headaches? Gah!

If EWQL handled this correctly, they would support VEPro and let customers decide which direction they want to go. Would they lose some potential Play Pro customers to VEPro? Probably. However, Play Pro is not just about networking audio is it? So there will be plenty of reasons to get Play Pro other than audio networking. Maybe this reduces the amount of people they lose to VEPro.

On top of that, is Play Pro going to be a main source of revenue for EWQL? Hardly. The libraries are their bread and butter. So why taint the company's reputation by not supporting VEPro? This is such a simple business decision to me. Maybe I'm missing some glaring reason not to?

I've been in the enterprise system sales world for over 17 years and one thing you learn if you want to survive is the concept of *COOPITION*. For instance, IBM and EMC *hate* each other. However, they have to cooperate with each other to ensure their solutions work flawlessly with one another so that the customer is taken care of! At the end of the day both companies win and so does the customer. Its so damn simple and absolutely applies to the sample library industry. Lets see some COOPITION EWQL! 

-Kevin


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## Olias (Jan 5, 2010)

It's also likely their development efforts are targeted at Hollywwood Strings at the moment? But yes, they need to make this work.

P.S. The word "coopition" makes me wanna barf :shock:


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## AndreasWaldetoft (Jan 5, 2010)

I have alot of EW sample libs, but ever since PLAY I feel trapped in that sampleplayer.
Theyre libs are too good for that player in my oppinion. I have never gotten it to work under VE-Pro... which is a shame as its my host for all samples nowadays. 
I wont buy Hollywood Strings if they dont fix PLAY... CS and LASS will get my money.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 5, 2010)

In all fairness it may not be simple to fix Play so it works in VE Pro Mac. And I believe that Doug honestly does believe that you shouldn't be feeding the output of slave computers into the host DAW. 

While I disagree with him on that point, I don't think he's thumbing his nose at his customers.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 5, 2010)

You mean via ethernet, Nick?


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## JohnG (Jan 5, 2010)

So, someone quotes a VSL spokesman who blames PLAY for problems with VE Pro, then concludes that the issue is "in EW's court." Sure it is -- from VSL's point of view.

How is it EW's problem that VSL comes out with a new piece of software and it doesn't work with PLAY? Surely, it's the other way around? Even if Doug is too rough in the way he communicates, I don't understand how it's his fault that VSL's new system won't accommodate PLAY.

PLAY works just great now. I'm using it on five different computers and it works as well as Kontakt for sample playback, and its reverbs are considerably better, in my opinion. Some of the features, like SILK's many different non-Western scales, allow one to take the music to a different place altogether than would be easily done on other playback engines.

It works within DP, it works standalone, it works in Bidule. It works.

And as Nick B points out, its streaming engine is flying.

I am genuinely sympathetic for those for whom PLAY isn't working, but I am not persuaded of the logic of blaming EastWest solely for VE Pro problems or incompatibility.


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## rob morsberger (Jan 5, 2010)

John
with greatest respect
what I find disappointing is not that EW is 'to blame' for the problem but that they are not, apparently, interested in being part of the solution.
In my opinion that is a real disservice to the many working composers who use and like Play libraries and need them to work in VE Pro.
Of course I may be wrong but that is how it looks to me.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 5, 2010)

rob morsberger @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> John
> with greatest respect
> what I find disappointing is not that EW is 'to blame' for the problem but that they are not, apparently, interested in being part of the solution.
> In my opinion that is a real disservice to the many working composers who use and like Play libraries and need them to work in VE Pro.
> Of course I may be wrong but that is how it looks to me.




Here's a question. Would you pay a small fee to EW for Play compatibility within VePro?

As someone who owns most of EW's catalogue, I might grumble a bit, but I certainly would. It's hard for me to understand why they wouldn't hire someone to do the necessary re-coding ( I just can't imagine it would be that difficult), pay them and pass the cost on to customers who wanted it.


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## JohnG (Jan 5, 2010)

Well Rob, I doubt that I know the whole story, but I reject reflexive blaming of EW by some for the VE Pro compatibility issue. 

At a minimum, there is blame on both sides, but given that VE Pro came out second and promises itself as a host, it seems to me that the main burden rests with VE Pro. Bidule and DP host PLAY successfully.


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2010)

Justin M @ 6th January 2010 said:


> Clearly the problem was, and _probably_ still is, PLAY



Justin, what evidence do you have that leads you to this conclusion? VSL's word for it? While VSL is a superb company, that alone can hardly be conclusive here, as unavoidably there is inherent self-interest in their pointing the finger at EW. 

To what extent is EW supposed to devote time and resources to make their software compatible for incorporation into a competitor's product? How much time and how many resources? I don't think it's very easy without a lot of detail to know whether they have done "enough."

VE Pro, sold as a host, is unable to host one of the most widely-used VIs. Blaming the VI seems illogical to me.

Just because Doug's tone is combative or he presses "the red button" too often doesn't mean he's always wrong.


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## stevenson-again (Jan 6, 2010)

i seem to recall when VEpro first came out that it was only PLAY that was causing the headaches and delayed the launch of it while they tried to get to the bottom of it. in the end they decided to go ahead with VEpro launch and warn customers there was still a problem with PLAY and that they were in contact with EW about it. they even identified the specific problem that it was. it probably is fair to say that the issue is a PLAY issue, since all other plugs work ok, but it is something that is only a problem when trying to use VEpro.

whether that problem is easy to resolve or whether it is in EWs interests to resolve is another matter.


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## Mr Greg G (Jan 6, 2010)

I guess we're lucky EW doesn't make sequencers, otherwise we wouldn't be able to open Play in Cubase or Logic as they wouldn't want to "devote time and resources to make their software compatible for incorporation into a competitor's product".






I was so sick of the behavior of Play (can't bounce offline, truncated notes, Play getting randomly muted...) that I decided to resample SD2 with ESC... and I ended up with 30% of truncated samples


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2010)

Guys -- look at these posts. Is this rational, evidence-based criticism or is it prejudice? Prejudice leads one to blame one side every time there is a problem. 

Vienna chose to release VE Pro, knowing there was incompatibility, then blames EW. So whose fault is that? And as has been pointed out, PLAY is not the "only" piece of software that VE Pro had trouble with. VE Pro is brand new and doesn't work perfectly from day one -- so? Does that make it bad? Of course not. Fortunately, the incompatibility issues already have improved with the beta and, one hopes, will be eradicated.

This thread is the latest example of bitter vitriol being casually slapped at EW, often from the same people, practically every time someone mentions PLAY on this forum. 

Pringles' comment on DAWs deliberately twists what I wrote into a snide insult, with gratuitous speculation thrown in. VSL clearly is a direct competitor; DAW makers are not. And if you can't bounce offline, switch to DP.


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 6, 2010)

John, you make good points, and you also acknowledge that Doug doesn't always help his cause. I think that definitely applies here - he made several posts initially which essentially said "not our problem, go away". Which understandably doesn't go down well with the customers. and now when people are not sure who to believe, it makes many people suspicious of EWQL.

Personally Play works well for me (except GUI and Wordbuilder issues), but this isn't true for a fair few people, it seems. So you gotta add this into the mix... If Doug seems uncooperative, and Play doesn't work properly on your DAW, it's not a giant leapt to assume the fault is at their end. However, I agree with you - it's not necessarily true.

I think what IS true is that, to date, VSL are better at customer PR....


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2010)

Undoubtedly, Doug does real damage when he adopts a high-handed tone and expresses himself so harshly and, at times, dismissively. I wish he would reconsider this approach, as I absolutely agree that this has affected perception.

Ironically, this perception has masked to some extent the enormous improvement in PLAY's streaming performance and an evident jump compatibility with different PC configurations. Sometimes, I wonder whether some comments are written by users who were disappointed six months ago, or even further back, and haven't been willing to go back to see whether the problems they have are solved. Not that they are required to, of course, but occasionally I wonder if these are frustrations from past experience.

Either way, I love the PLAY libraries' sound and, from the beginning, have had barely a hiccough with the player on either Mac or PC. I use other libraries too, but really like the sound EW delivers.

I will be surprised if the remaining incompatibility with VE Pro is not resolved soon.


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## Mr Greg G (Jan 6, 2010)

Ok JohnG, if Play is so perfect and is actually working for everybody as you seem to imply (*), how come there are so many threads started in various forums WORLDWIDE bitching about how broken this player is? 

Never saw that many threads bitching about ANY other major programs. So how come??

* "This thread is the latest example of bitter vitriol being casually slapped at EW, often from the same people, practically every time someone mentions PLAY on this forum. "

Anyway, it seems you're taking this thing too seriously and personally to see an insult in what I typed.


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2010)

If anyone is taking the subject too seriously and personally, it is you, Mr. Anonymous, and the insult was to EW, not to me. I am all for fair criticism, but please don't change the subject when the weaknesses of cheap ranting and insinuation fall short.

EW's response may be unbecoming and short-sighted, but still, in my opinion, it's a problem that Vienna knew about and now appears to be trying to deflect to EW, hopefully to be resolved soon enough.

Curiously, I haven't seen anyone speculate about Vienna's choice to release a product that happens to be incompatible with the playback engine of one of their chief rivals.

Many complaints about PLAY are old news, and if you never saw comparable levels of complaining about music software, you haven't been looking at NI's own boards. It's enough to bend your hair back some days.


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## hbuus (Jan 6, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Jan 06 said:


> Ironically, this perception has masked to some extent the enormous improvement in PLAY's streaming performance and an evident jump compatibility with different PC configurations. Sometimes, I wonder whether some comments are written by users who were disappointed six months ago, or even further back, and haven't been willing to go back to see whether the problems they have are solved. Not that they are required to, of course, but occasionally I wonder if these are frustrations from past experience.



John, try re-read Simon's initial post.
He says he can't use PLAY as a plug-in in Logic, and that he can't use PLAY as standalone either.
Apparently he's using the latest version of PLAY.
I have no doubt it is true that PLAY has gone through enormous improvement since it's launch; indeed people who have had problems with the software in the past have been reporting success since then. There is a very long thread on another forum which testifies this.
Yet some people, perhaps many, are still having problems.
Simon is one; I believe Bryla is (still) another?
My point is:
This is not only a question of who is to blame, VSL or EW, that PLAY does not work in VE Pro.
That is only one of the problems stated by the initial poster; the main problem for him being that PLAY does not function at all in his setup.

Henrik


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## JohnG (Jan 6, 2010)

Fair points all, Henrik


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## gmet (Jan 6, 2010)

John,

I have every right to rant on this 'free speech' forum, nothing weak about that at all; the same way in which you seem compelled to defend EW.

Bottom line is - poor old Nick and Doug still have my money!

Regards,

Justin

p.s. I was also not impressed by VSL, however they didn't throw personal insults my way.


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## Olias (Jan 6, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Wed Jan 06 said:


> i seem to recall when VEpro first came out that it was only PLAY that was causing the headaches and delayed the launch of it while they tried to get to the bottom of it.



Read the VEPro changelogs and see how many crashes and UI freak-outs they've had to fix for lots of other plug-ins. It's not just PLAY.

I'm glad to hear that EW has at least tried to offer a suggestion to VSL. Maybe VSL tried it and it didn't work. Maybe they haven't yet tried it? Maybe it's hard to do?

Anyway, I hope someone gets it working soon!


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## NYC Composer (Jan 6, 2010)

You know, Play is working perfectly for me in Cubase 5 Mac. It's sort of an annoying interface, and I find EW's approach to things oversensitive and abrasive, but my EW stuff works very well at this point, and sounds marvelous. Apparently it works in DP as well....hmmm. Logic problem, anyone? Not to start a silly 'my sequencer is better than yours' war, but there seem to be more and more problems popping up in Logicland recently. Lord knows we've gone through torture on the Cubase Mac side, but it seems to be pretty well sorted now.

I think John is partially right, I think a lot of people are reacting to the Play of old, which, didn't work very well for the vast majority of people. I think people have a right to be pissed off at EW's defensive posture, which was just nonsense. 'Well, it works great for me on 8 computers'. Puh-leeze. Further, every cry in the darkness was met with a sort of stonewall approach 'we haven't seen that here'. Nonsense. It's just bad business, and it continues to this day.Play is much improved, but it was released too early, and it started out as a serious debacle. Nick and Doug should do their mea culpas and be done with it. They make fantastic products, and now- they even work.


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## bryla (Jan 7, 2010)

hbuus @ Wed Jan 06 said:


> Simon is one; I believe Bryla is (still) another?


Yes Henrik, I'm still working on it with EW Tech Support. They are very kind and helpful. I am however not that discouraged. I hope one day, they release an update out of the blue, that wipes all the issues away


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## synergy543 (Jan 7, 2010)

hbuus @ Wed Jan 06 said:


> Simon is one; I believe Bryla is (still) another?


And I'm thrid in line waiting for PLAY to work with my setup. My monitor is turned in Portrait mode (so can work on full scores in Sibelius) and the PLAY fonts become ridiculously large. Tech Support has been responsive and sympathetic although there is no solution yet.

Am I the only one using Portrait mode? >8o 
(I did see the OrchestrationOnline guy also has his monitor in portrait mode.)


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## bryla (Jan 7, 2010)

I think you and Thomas Goss are the only ones


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2010)

Back to square one: why is Simon not able to get Play to work in Logic? VSL just released an update that fixes the well known problem of Play crashing Logic when the VE Pro plug-in is running.

But other than that it would have to be an installation problem (and that is a real possibility). I've run several versions of Logic and Play on two different Macs and not run into a single compatibility issue over the past 2-1/2 years or so.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 7, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> Back to square one: why is Simon not able to get Play to work in Logic? VSL just released an update that fixes the well known problem of Play crashing Logic when the VE Pro plug-in is running.
> 
> But other than that it would have to be an installation problem (and that is a real possibility). I've run several versions of Logic and Play on two different Macs and not run into a single compatibility issue over the past 2-1/2 years or so.



With all due respect: Rubbish. 8) 

There's only one way to install a Play product: Run the installer.

It's a Play problem. Messy code since it's so inconsistently crashing/not crashing.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2010)

Well, I installed some of the libraries by hand with help from Jonathan at EW. There were a lot of little things to put in various places.

And I promise you it's not rubbish. I don't own stock in EW - there's no reason for me to bullshit about it working well.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2010)

By the way, I didn't mean for it to come out that Play has been where it is now for 2-1/2 years. There was no shortage of complaints about it for a long time.

All I mean is that there haven't been any compatibility issues that I know about. And it really does work well now.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 7, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> Well, I installed some of the libraries by hand with help from Jonathan at EW. There were a lot of little things to put in various places.
> 
> And I promise you it's not rubbish. I don't own stock in EW - there's no reason for me to [email protected]#t about it working well.


'

Look.... PLAY puts things in 4 locations: The standard AU plugin folder, its own standalone folder (default: Applications/East West) and then the sample library location of your choice. And on top of that possibly a play.plist file in Preferences. And if anything went wrong with that, PLAY would not work AT ALL. That's not whats happening. PLAY is opening fine, it's showing its libraries fine, it's loading the samples fine. It just crashes on various occassions. It has nothing to do with "wrong installation". It's not like I'm some 80-year old who just got his first computer, so please don't give me the "you must be doing something wrong with your system" talk. As mentioned earlier, all other pluginsI use, including Kontakt 2/3.5 work and never crash.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 7, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> By the way, I didn't mean for it to come out that Play has been where it is now for 2-1/2 years. There was no shortage of complaints about it for a long time.
> 
> All I mean is that there haven't been any compatibility issues that I know about. And it really does work well now.



... for you, it does.


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## Rob (Jan 7, 2010)

synergy543 @ 7th January 2010 said:


> ...
> 
> Am I the only one using Portrait mode? >8o
> (I did see the OrchestrationOnline guy also has his monitor in portrait mode.)



my brother who is a professional copyist uses portrait mode, but he's the only one I know... so there's at least three :D


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## Pochflyboy (Jan 7, 2010)

Doug said today that his team did locate what they believe to be the issue with VEPro and why it would not work with PLAY and they suggested it to VSL's development team. From my perceptions it looks like the fix means some work for VSL and therefor they have not tried it yet. From my side I think EW is trying but they are not the developers of VEPro. How can people possibly expect EW to locate and change the code for VEPro so it works with their software? PLAY works everywhere else. It is upon VSL to take the recommendations and make the changes.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 7, 2010)

Simon Ravn @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, I didn't mean for it to come out that Play has been where it is now for 2-1/2 years. There was no shortage of complaints about it for a long time.
> ...



and for me, in Cubase. and for a lot of people in their various systems.

No one is accusing you of being a computer neophyte. The suggestion here is that there's something going on with your set-up that's not going on with ( most) others. It only makes logical sense. It's obvious that you're frustrated, and it makes sense, but it's probably fixable. 

1. Play is now working well on the majority of systems.
2. Play is still not working well on your system.
3. Ergo, something about your particular Play installation or hardware/software combo is making Play not work on your system.

I have no dog in this fight, I just want my system to work with everything. I love Play libraries, don't love Play itself, but it works for me. I'm not pro EW, not pro VSL, not anti anything. 

Of course, if you just want to vent ( which I would understand) then pardon my mini-analysis and carry on. :wink:


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## José Herring (Jan 7, 2010)

Did they ever fix the update problem in Play? I remember a while back that you had to manually unistall the older version of Play when you installed updates. Took me a while to figure this out. At one time I had 3 Play versions on my machine. It didn't work. Then I deleted the other two versions and it worked.


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## synergy543 (Jan 7, 2010)

Rob @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> synergy543 @ 7th January 2010 said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Gee, we're coming out of the closet slowly are we? A beautiful rainbow of portrait users who can't even PLAY amongst themselves! 
Ah, I knew I wasn't alone. Swell, guys! Stand up, be proud, raise your monitors and tout your horns! o=<


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## Polarity (Jan 8, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu 07 Jan said:


> Did they ever fix the update problem in Play? I remember a while back that you had to manually unistall the older version of Play when you installed updates. Took me a while to figure this out. At one time I had 3 Play versions on my machine. It didn't work. Then I deleted the other two versions and it worked.



Since months I installed Play updates (over the installed version) without removing the previous installation.
No problems at all for me.
Of course I remember to reinstall the iLok drivers setup (included in Play update) every time.

I'm on Win XP SP3 32bit, and Cubase 4.5.2.


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## IFM (Jan 8, 2010)

One of the best things I did to get PLAY working on my system (Mac Pro Quad 2.66) was to get rid of the preference file. For some reason once I did that it even worked with VI Pro running at the same time before I installed their beta. Worth a shot!


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## rob morsberger (Jan 8, 2010)

but Simon since one of your main issues was that play crashed logic while you were also running VEpro, could you please report back if this is still the case with the latest VEpro public beta? Because that seems to be addressed now. Please let us know.


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## Stevie (Jan 13, 2010)

Sorry, didn't read the whole thread, yet (will do when I get time). What is ALWAYS russian roulette:
portamento and legato options. It works *RANDOMLY*.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 13, 2010)

By the way, are you using at least 10.5? I have a feeling it doesn't work as well under 10.4. That could be the problem.


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## Stevie (Jan 14, 2010)

directed to me? :D


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 14, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jan 08 said:


> > No one is accusing you of being a computer neophyte
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As mentioned already - if there were stuff from PACKAGES missing, the plugin wouldn't even run and the samples wouldn't load. That is NOT the problem. It WORKS, sometimes it just doesn't.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 14, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> Did they ever fix the update problem in Play? I remember a while back that you had to manually unistall the older version of Play when you installed updates. Took me a while to figure this out. At one time I had 3 Play versions on my machine. It didn't work. Then I deleted the other two versions and it worked.



Was that PC or Mac? Never happened here, it always installed itself on top of the old version (on Mac). Of course, I always check the version number each time I update...


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 14, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> ...


That is just your assumption. I could assume the other way around, and be just as right as you are.


> 2. Play is still not working well on your system.



It's working better, but not as good as most other plugins. I never had other samplers crash because I tweak a knob or switch to another settings page within the plugin. NEVER. Only with PLAY. 



> 3. Ergo, something about your particular Play installation or hardware/software combo is making Play not work on your system.



Again, that's just guessing. The fact of the matter is that I never saw so much complaining about a plugin as I did about PLAY. And it's not like VSL and Kontakt don't have at least as big a user base, so why are their plugins not giving as many problems as PLAY? Because PLAY is "installed wrong" or whatever you are suggesting on more systems than the other plugins? Not a very likely explanatiò|Ð   ¾²³|Ð   ¾²´|Ð   ¾²µ|Ð   ¾²¶|Ð   ¾²·|Ð   ¾²¸|Ð   ¾²¹|Ð   ¾²º|Ð   ¾²»|Ð   ¾²¼|Ð   ¾²½|Ð   ¾²¾|Ð   ¾²¿|Ð   ¾²À|Ð   ¾²Á|Ð   ¾²Â|Ð   ¾²Ã|Ð   ¾²Ä|Ð   ¾²Å|Ð   ¾²Æ|Ð   ¾²Ç|Ð   ¾²È|Ð   ¾²É|Ð   ¾²Ê|Ð   ¾²Ë|Ð   ¾²Ì|Ð   ¾²Í|Ð   ¾²Î|Ð   ¾²Ï|Ð   ¾²Ð|Ð   ¾²Ñ|Ð   ¾²Ò|Ð   ¾²Ó|Ð   ¾²Ô|Ð   ¾²Õ|Ñ   ¾²Ö|Ñ   ¾²×|Ñ   ¾²Ø|Ñ   ¾²Ù|Ñ   ¾²Ú|Ñ   ¾²Û|Ñ   ¾²Ü|Ñ   ¾²Ý|Ñ   ¾²Þ|Ñ   ¾²ß|Ñ   ¾²à|Ñ   ¾²á|Ñ   ¾²â|Ñ   ¾²ã|Ñ   ¾²ä|Ñ   ¾²å|Ñ   ¾²æ|Ñ   ¾²ç|Ñ   ¾²è|Ñ   ¾²é|Ñ   ¾²ê|Ñ   ¾²ë|Ñ   ¾²ì|Ñ   ¾²í|Ñ   ¾²î|Ñ   ¾²ï|Ñ   ¾²ð|Ñ   ¾²ñ|Ñ   ¾²ò|Ñ   ¾²ó|Ñ   ¾²ô|Ñ   ¾²õ|Ñ   ¾²ö|Ñ   ¾²÷|Ñ   ¾²ø|Ñ   ¾²ù|Ñ   ¾²ú|Ñ   ¾²û|Ñ   ¾²ü|Ñ   ¾²ý|Ñ   ¾²þ|Ñ   ¾²ÿ|Ñ   ¾³ |Ñ   ¾³|Ñ   ¾³|Ñ   ¾³|Ñ   ¾³|Ñ   ¾³|Ñ   ¾³|Ñ   ¾³|Ñ   ¾³|Ñ   ¾³	|Ñ   ¾³
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## noiseboyuk (Jan 14, 2010)

FWIW, I've been Play-crash-free for many months. Wasn't the case at all this time last year.

Surely - SURELY - the fairest summary here is that Play has improved to the point where many people have it totally stable, but there remain some issues with some configurations, yet to be fully sorted?


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## NYC Composer (Jan 14, 2010)

Simon Ravn @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Simon Ravn @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> ...



Errr.. actually, I was trying to help you, maybe troubleshoot together, but you must be right, it just doesn't work. Sorry I interrupted. Rave on.


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## synergy543 (Jan 15, 2010)

Simon Ravn @ Thu Jan 14 said:


> It's working better, but not as good as most other plugins. I never had other samplers crash because I tweak a knob or switch to another settings page within the plugin. NEVER. Only with PLAY.


I don't think Simon is just whining.

I am also having a similar experience with PLAY reliability (separate from the font problem which EW says will be fixed in the next release). I've had it crash several times today alone. The first crash was after I simply opened the surround mics in the choirs. No additional load on the computer. Later it seemed to be working OK so I couldn't repeat the problem.

Another problem I have is when I standalone PLAY and Kontakt 3 are both open. The output from PLAY disappears on my MOTU 2408. I can re-instantiate it, but then it kills the output from Kontakt. Either they don't play nicely with each other, or its possible the MOTU 2408 doesn't like to simultaneously sync to several programs. So its hard to pin-point, although these problems are most annoying.

A third problem is that I "occassionally" lose sync with PLAY when I switch to Quicktime or iTunes. However, I suspect this problem has its roots more in the MOTU 2408, although PLAY does seem to lose sync more often than some other programs which remain rock-solid such as dsp-quattro. So why some programs lose sync while others don't is baffling.

Simon, if you can narrow the problem down and repeat it, you can get it fixed. If they are just intermittent and annoying as my problems are, its pretty hard for anybody to fix the problem. So try to keep track of what you're doing and see if you can repeat it - then submit a ticket. As I said, EW has been very responsive to the problems I've had. Its just the intermittent ones that I can't exactly track down that are most annoying and these just happen to occur more frequently with PLAY than with VSL and Kontakt (which are currently both rock-solid for me).

MacPro 8-core, 16G, OSX 10.5.8, MOTU 2408 MKIII


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## NYC Composer (Jan 15, 2010)

If your comment is to me, I said nothing about whining, I said raving. Nor did I say or imply his problem wasn't real. Many people have had problems with Play. Many of them are fixed or their Play setups are much improved. Simon seems to want to badmouth E.W.more than he wants to find a solution or a workaround. Of course, that's only my opinion. I could be wrong, but it's pretty bloody unlikely. :evil:


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 15, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> If your comment is to me, I said nothing about whining, I said raving. Nor did I say or imply his problem wasn't real. Many people have had problems with Play. Many of them are fixed or their Play setups are much improved. Simon seems to want to badmouth E.W.more than he wants to find a solution or a workaround. Of course, that's only my opinion. I could be wrong, but it's pretty bloody unlikely. :evil:



If I wanted to badmouth EW, would I write that they have some awesome sounds that I am using and want to use? Would I write that QL Pianos is the best pianos I ever heard? Would I have bought 10+ of their products if I didn't like they libraries? I realize some people are sensitive to criticism, but really, if you decide to turn your back on a well established, rock solid sampler platform like Kontakt to do your own sample player, you need to be prepared to take some flack if your software doesn't cut it. And it's a well known fact that PLAY has had a ton of problems since its introduction - what, 2 years ago? As I have written many times, it has become better, yes, but it still feels finicky and unstable compared to the platform EW left. And as long as these crashes seem so random, it is impossible for me to go to EW with anything but "the bloody player just crashes randomly from time to time". I am sure they wouldn't be able to help me. They need to tidy up their code. They have come a long way, but there is still some way to go.


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## bryla (Jan 15, 2010)

I seem to remember PLAY being introduced 4 years ago? Maybe I'm wrong


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## noiseboyuk (Jan 15, 2010)

This is nuts. On the one hand, Simon, plenty of users have no stability issues whatsoever. I think the problem some are having here is that you seem to be denying this basic fact. Play used to drive me to violence, but as far as I can remember it hasn't crashed once for me since 1.2.5 and despite very heavy use. I'm not making this up - it's not spin. It's how it is for me.

On the other hand, clearly there are some users who do still have stability issues. This points to either individual system problems, or issues in the code THAT ONLY AFFECT SOME CONFIGURATIONS. The best thing you can do is, as NYC says, is to keep reporting what's happening and under what conditions.

I think you are in the unlucky minority. What this means is that there are less people reporting problems, which makes it less likely they will ever get resolved and fixed. EWQL's support is not always brilliantly responsive, but it's what we all have. I suggest submitting a ticket, using the support thread on soundsonline, and helping yourself get your issues fixed.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 15, 2010)

bryla @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> I seem to remember PLAY being introduced 4 years ago? Maybe I'm wrong



Maybe - time flies


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## germancomponist (Jan 15, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Fri Jan 15 said:


> This is nuts. On the one hand, Simon, plenty of users have no stability issues whatsoever. I think the problem some are having here is that you seem to be denying this basic fact. Play used to drive me to violence, but as far as I can remember it hasn't crashed once for me since 1.2.5 and despite very heavy use. I'm not making this up - it's not spin. It's how it is for me.
> 
> On the other hand, clearly there are some users who do still have stability issues. This points to either individual system problems, or issues in the code THAT ONLY AFFECT SOME CONFIGURATIONS. The best thing you can do is, as NYC says, is to keep reporting what's happening and under what conditions.
> 
> I think you are in the unlucky minority. What this means is that there are less people reporting problems, which makes it less likely they will ever get resolved and fixed. EWQL's support is not always brilliantly responsive, but it's what we all have. I suggest submitting a ticket, using the support thread on soundsonline, and helping yourself get your issues fixed.



+1


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## dpasdernick (Jan 19, 2010)

germancomponist @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Could it be a reason that some devs don`t like it when users edit their libs in Kontakt?



Gunther,

I'm sure the reason EW created their own sample playback engine was to have total control over their product. I'm sure NI gets a royalty for every Kontakt player library out there. 

I finally upgraded a few of my older EW NI versions (Choirs and Goliath) and so far am doing OK. But I just bought a new 64 bit machine and haven't had time to compose anything huge yet. 

I would bet the chances of EW releasing Kontakt versions of their software are nil. I do hope to buy more and more Play libs. I hope my experience with Play will be a little more pleasant... Time will tell.

Darren


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## givemenoughrope (Mar 1, 2010)

I was just banned (I think..?) from EW forum for supposed insulting Doug...really I was just questioning the RAM usage said he was vague about the whole issue. It doesn't use RAM outside the host like he claimed. Whatever. No more EW anything for me. If they want to be vague and backpedal on the RAM thing forget it. I'll use what I have but there's no HS in my future with anything that resembles my current, yet healthy setup. If I can budget it, maybe but the whole thing has soured me. HS is too expensive to take a chance on only being able to use only a handful of patches at once.

Just getting into LASS but I really appreciate Andrew's openness to ideas and willingness to be upfront on how to best run the library. It's refreshing and definitely the future software support. 

Should have stuck with Kontakt, EW.


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## synthetic (Mar 1, 2010)

givemenoughrope @ Mon Mar 01 said:


> Just getting into LASS but I really appreciate Andrew's openness to ideas and willingness to be upfront on how to best run the library. It's refreshing and definitely the future software support.



Amazing that Andrew has a *bug report forum* on his website. I don't know any other examples of that. Incredible service. 

As for converting SD2 to Kontakt, I would look at Autosampler from Redmatica. That converts to WAV and EXS but I think they're working on a Kontakt version.


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## noiseboyuk (Mar 2, 2010)

bryla @ Tue Mar 02 said:


> Autosampler 2 also does Kontakt



Shame it's mac-only - anyone know if there's plans for a PC version?


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## Polarity (Mar 2, 2010)

Well, there is a similar one for PC Windows: SampleRobot is its name, if I'm not wrong.

Don't know both programs, so I can't compare them, sorry.


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## mverta (Mar 31, 2010)

I may regret this, but I've done a search on this topic and found long, but inconclusive threads.


As a long-time Vienna Ensemble user on Mac (loaded as RTAS in Pro Tools), I have just installed my first instance of a PLAY library: Stormdrum 2. Now loading my templates in Pro Tools causes VE to crash. I hadn't even had time to try loading SD2 into my project. 

Am I to understand that there is still ò¯.   Ì%C¯.   Ì%D¯.   Ì%E¯.   Ì%F¯.   Ì%G¯/   Ì%H¯/   Ì%


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## mverta (Mar 31, 2010)

Yes, I have read that thread, and as I mentioned, I'm on mac. I did not see a solution or definitive answer there. I'm hoping this is just poor search engine chops on my part, and there is in fact a solution...



_Mike


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## synergy543 (Mar 31, 2010)

Mike, PLAY doesn't work inside VE on the Mac. You might want to check out Bidule as an alternative. Mike Patti has made a great tutorial on Bidule. There are several threads on bidule over on MOTUnation.com too.

Doug also suggested another tip was to load PLAY before other VIs due to RAM allocation issues.

My tip: Get the old Kontakt versions of EW and hang onto them tightly. They work great and PLAY nicely. :wink: My bug with PLAY is that you can't get inside and edit to add things such as modulation of filters and such.


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## mverta (Mar 31, 2010)

Thanks so much... checking on it now.


_Mike


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