# 37 hours of library music for 199$! WTF?!?!?



## nikolas (Feb 22, 2010)

I got this e-mail (I've subscribed, so nothing wrong there), with a company which is offering 37 fucking hours of music (and to be exact, with their own words: "165 Song-themes – over 1,800 individual tracks
more than 37 hours of broadcast quality music
unending and virtually unlimited buyout license
unconditional customer satisfaction guarantee
") for less than 200$

I don't know about you, but this feels like such a low blow to every composer in the world!

Imagine the other guys who were looking for non PRO affiliated composers, to do such a thing!


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## requiem_aeternam7 (Feb 22, 2010)

Utterly disgusting. We are treated as pure trash, 2nd hand slaves in this industry.


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## Brobdingnagian (Feb 22, 2010)

WOW! Not to be a fool. But that is less than many sample libraries.

Why not get the library, land your regular reality series, compose the main title and a few key cues and then cut the rest of the show with their library?

Look, you get the upfront fee, some residuals and best of all, you get to sleep more AND have your weekend free! :roll: 

I LOVE this trend! :wink: 

A race to the bottom!

Soon Hollywood Blvd. will be lined with composers wearing placards reading, "will work for a sandwich!"


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## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 22, 2010)

I checked out the site, it looks like there are 20 or more variations/edits on many of the pieces. The quality was decent enough for tv though. However the 37 hours seems like an inflated figure.

On the up side, directors usually want something very unique and specific which is a point the royalty free folks underestimate. People who want the best will always want the best, and people who can sound like the best or better. They also need assistance navigating through material. This person is providing a lot of content but not a lot of service. I'm thinking this is more targeted towards youtube creators and film students (who need to stop with the work for credits nonsense anyway). Nothing new here.

They are targeting the "cheap / pirate / hobbyist / low budget" sector. They are using the low end of the tier concept I described in another post.


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## SergeD (Feb 22, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Not to rub salt in the wound but part of this is thanks to the democratization of music and the proliferation of technology at cheaper prices. Who needs to go to university or the conservatory to learn harmony, counterpoint, orchestration and formal structure when you can just buy an orchestra? To most clients, they are tone deaf anyhow and wouldn't know the difference between GPO and VSL much less the real thing.
> 
> I really don't know why some of you are complaining or surprised at this. Honestly. Because this is not much different than what some espouse on this forum when it comes to technique, skill level and quality of musicianship. Remember guys, it's all about the touchy feely and not technical facilities because you know, music is all love and emotion. So don't whine how some 16 year old with Acid or Logic Studio says "hell yeah, I can make some $$$ at this and get my stuff out there" which effectively undercuts your livelihood.



dcoscina,

The point here is no matter if the guy is Stravinsky or a total ignorant using spoons the fact is he's gonna be robbed in this business structure.

SergeD


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## gsilbers (Feb 22, 2010)

wait what?! royalty free? 

that guy doesnt even get paid royalties?


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## dcoscina (Feb 22, 2010)

SergeD @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> dcoscina @ Mon Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Not to rub salt in the wound but part of this is thanks to the democratization of music and the proliferation of technology at cheaper prices. Who needs to go to university or the conservatory to learn harmony, counterpoint, orchestration and formal structure when you can just buy an orchestra? To most clients, they are tone deaf anyhow and wouldn't know the difference between GPO and VSL much less the real thing.
> ...



But don't you think that there is some correlation to de-valuing music and the number of people writing music? If there was no supply than there would be no demand. If composers/songwriters/musicians had a certain bottom line for the cost to secure their services, there wouldn't be this kind of underbidding where clients could manipulate the system to get music dirt cheap. And yeah, in a model like this, the Stravinsky's are the ones who suffer more because they have some artistic pride and telling these guys to f- themselves.


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## José Herring (Feb 22, 2010)

You guys act like this is new news. Bottom of the barrel library music has been around since I first started.

People still pay for original music. You just gotta convince them that you can do better and why.

I get so frustrated here sometimes. Stop whining about everything and get on with life.


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## kdm (Feb 22, 2010)

josejherring @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> You guys act like this is new news. Bottom of the barrel library music has been around since I first started.
> 
> People still pay for original music. You just gotta convince them that you can do better and why.



Sure, but the mentality behind it is spreading further and further up the pay scale, faster every year. I think it's overly optimistic, if not naive, to think that actually being good at composing, or even being well connected, is some form of job security. It isn't. Not by a long shot.


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## Leon Willett (Feb 22, 2010)

This is only worrying if you believe your music can be replaced by library music.


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## Brobdingnagian (Feb 22, 2010)

In all seriousness, while do I find this disturbing and sad, it is not anything new. Yes, the disease is spreading....

However, I am finding that cable networks and indie TV prod. companies do still value the quality of what a composer can bring to their productions. There is also the prestige factor as well.

Many cable execs have told me flat out that while many of their shows cannot afford a composer, there are always a few every season that can. These are there cherished projects which they wish to have shine. 

I am scoring a few right now. It is encouraging to hear the honesty in that they cannot afford someone and need to use production libraries, rather than trying to hire someone for an unacceptable rate. When they have a serious budget, I get a call. When you try and do it for peanuts "just to get your foot in the door" (which is what many of you are thinking, I am sure) it always ends in tears. 

There will always be a need and respect for what we as composers can bring to the party. It is just increasingly difficult to get heard above all of the noise......and find gigs in a time when budgets across the board are being dramatically slashed.

My apologies for this stream of consciousness diatribe...my .02 pence worth


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## kdm (Feb 22, 2010)

Leon Willett @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> This is only worrying if you believe your music can be replaced by library music.



It doesn't matter what we think, or how good we are when the general artistic market is losing value in the eyes of content creators, distributors and consumers.

I couldn't care less about cheap libraries with generic music beds. Like the previous poster said, there are simply fewer and fewer projects available. Sure, there are people who will always (or so we assume) look for composers, but too many are willing to cut quality to save money - all the talent in the world isn't going to increase shrinking budgets. The shrinking budget trend isn't likely to change anytime in the next decade. This is just a symptom.


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## gsilbers (Feb 22, 2010)

kdm @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Leon Willett @ Mon Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > This is only worrying if you believe your music can be replaced by library music.
> ...



its content creators/artists in all forms. 

society mentality is that they paid $1600 on a new TV/computer etc and the content therefore should be free. content=free for them >8o . thanks to the web and tech companies.

tech bubble is taking our money. cheapening productions (in all ways) 


musicians (their unions, record labels etc) should lobby in congress to provide legislation to pass law that declare the internet no different than TV and other media 
and the sense that if i listen to my music on a you tube video used w/o permission i should be able to sue youtube for an amount that make them change thier policies. do not care if they cannot ""know" who or what is uploading, not my problem. 
same with piracy websites, they need to know who is the provider and be able to sue, no matter where they are. outside the us then sue the isp to block that site. 
"that its diffucult because of the technology and the way the internet works blabla.." 
not my problem,.. U figure it out! 

that until we get the royalities we deserve for the internet streaming. yes, everytime you stream from youtube there is an ad next to it, then that means someone is getting paid for that ad and that content is not free and not "almost free" 
tech companies are taking our money and we still fight for stupid shiat. 

if content is able to profit as it deserves from the the web, then more money will be invested in music and good production.


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## Brobdingnagian (Feb 22, 2010)

KDM is right in many aspects.

Sadly, I spoke with a film producer friend this week.

Yes, he has studio films under his belt.

Yes, he is a great friend and I have really enjoyed collaborating with him on a few films.

He is in a real bind right now. These folks spend a fair bit of coin on a project, hoping to recoup it in sales. Guess what? If you think it is bad for us.....imagine creating a 2-4M film only to be offered PEANUTS for it. These guys are cobbling together territories at various film markets HOPING to make back a FRACTION of their budget. They take their fee up front and now are stuck with a losing investment.

Lastly, he just produce a small horror feature with a talented young (under 25) director, good cast (not great, but has some genre names) and now it is nearing time for the score. We had a very candid chat and he told me that they simply can't afford me. I appreciated the gesture and naturally began the "we have a relationship, we can work SOMETHING out dialogue".........

He then proceeded to tell me that the he and the other producers were approached by 
a music house that will grant them a gratis license to cut their (750K) feature with. I cannot and will not compete with FREE. Where do you even begin to negotiate from
there? He knows the value of a good score - I have given it to him before, WITH live musicians. As a producer, he know what the state of things are right now and that it will probably take a LONG while for him to recoup his sheckels.

I wished him best of luck and will take it out on him on the tennis court  

Better to maintain the relationship and either wait for him to come back to me when it all goes pear-shaped or on another project. I am certainly not a wh$re.....well, actually THAT is another thread........

Best of luck all ye merry Gentlemen.


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## Leon Willett (Feb 22, 2010)

kdm @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Sure, there are people who will always (or so we assume) look for composers, but too many are willing to cut quality to save money



This is only a problem if you choose to work for such people. 



gsilbers @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> society mentality is that they paid $1600 on a new TV/computer etc and the content therefore should be free. content=free for them >8o .



The content isn't free -- they pay for it by watching advertisement.


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## kdm (Feb 22, 2010)

Leon Willett @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> kdm @ Mon Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, there are people who will always (or so we assume) look for composers, but too many are willing to cut quality to save money
> ...



I really think you missed the point completely, but no matter.


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## Leon Willett (Feb 23, 2010)

OK, I'll describe the point the way I have understood it -- and you can correct me! 

There is a group of world-class gourmet chefs. They are outraged, bitter and fearful that there are so many MacDonalds restaurants opening. Another MacDonalds opens, offering a $1 burger, and they make a forum thread to complain about it. They feel threatened by this new restaurant, feeling that its presence will somehow influence their clients, which they are very fearful of loosing. 

The truth is that the presence of MacDonalds restaurants is completely irrelevant. Even some gourmet fans take their kids to MacDonalds sometimes. No big deal. Gourmet fans will continue to sit at your tables, and MacDonald fans will have a new venue. 

--

When someone comes into my restaurant and asks for a $1 burger, I simply give him directions to the nearest MacDonalds. I'm happy, and the customer is happy. My restaurant is still full and bustling, and the presence of a nearby MacDonalds doesn't change that. I am not fearful because I know I make food that is world-class. 

Are you fearful?

PS: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/0 ... mplaining/


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## lux (Feb 23, 2010)

are you guys sure this is not just a blanket?


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## nikolas (Feb 23, 2010)

You know what Leon? I never thought of it that way... I think you are right (although grey areas still arise).

Thank you for your post!


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## ChrisAxia (Feb 23, 2010)

Yes, I think Leon's analogy is pretty good, assuming there will always be customers who want Gourmet food. Here's hoping that not everyone wants McDonalds all of the time!

~C


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## Ed (Feb 23, 2010)

How do you know its good music?

If it was the cream of the crop I'd be worried. There's loads of cheap string sample libraries and while I could buy all of them, they still wouldn't be as good as VSL, LASS or HS etc.


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## SergeD (Feb 23, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> But don't you think that there is some correlation to de-valuing music and the number of people writing music?



Agree with you at 100%



dcoscina @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> If there was no supply than there would be no demand. If composers/songwriters/musicians had a certain bottom line for the cost to secure their services, there wouldn't be this kind of underbidding where clients could manipulate the system to get music dirt cheap. And yeah, in a model like this, the Stravinsky's are the ones who suffer more because they have some artistic pride and telling these guys to f- themselves.



Yes, composers are the ones who suffer because what gsilbers underlined here:

*society mentality is that they paid $1600 on a new TV/computer etc and the content therefore should be free. content=free for them what . thanks to the web and tech companies. tech bubble is taking our money. cheapening productions (in all ways)* 

My complaint is not about I'm not selling mp3's which are maybe crappy.
My complaint is about the equation which is not fair for content creators making people buy TV/computer and web srevices. We are the Third World of the technologic era.

SergeD


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## germancomponist (Feb 23, 2010)

Ed @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> How do you know its good music?
> 
> If it was the cream of the crop I'd be worried. There's loads of cheap string sample libraries and while I could buy all of them, they still wouldn't be as good as VSL, LASS or HS etc.



http://www.studiodaily.com/studiomonthl ... 11838.html

I also saw it here at CreativeCow: http://news.creativecow.net/story/863005


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## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2010)

I remember making a CD compilation of Christmas songs for my then girlfriend around 2002. A fellow employee remarked how nice my music was and asked for a copy. She got downright pissed that I was going to charge her $10 for the CD. She asked why I was charging her for my music. Can you believe that? I mean, my girlfriend got a free copy because I was getting something back (wink wink nudge nudge). But I was more shocked at this employee's entitlement. So, I politely said " my music is not free". If she was a he, my response would have been much nastier.

At my previous day job, a fellow employee also really liked my music for Spiderman (I worked up an entire soundtrack to an imaginary film) and he paid me $10 for the disc. I did some nice cover art but the music was probably no longer than 25 minutes in total. I almost felt bad about charging him but then thought "I spent $$$ on the equipment to make this, spent ___hours of time composing, arranging and producing this music, hell yeah I should charge!".

The documentary I am assisting an LA composer on has been taking so long because the main composer is doing this as a favor to a director. But, he decided last night that he was going to ask for monies because he said "we shouldn't work for free". We were always going to get back-end royalties but I'm glad he's going to get us some $$$ for doing the actual music. MUSIC IS NOT FOR FREE.


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## kdm (Feb 23, 2010)

Leon Willett @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> OK, I'll describe the point the way I have understood it -- and you can correct me!
> 
> There is a group of world-class gourmet chefs. They are outraged, bitter and fearful that there are so many MacDonalds restaurants opening. Another MacDonalds opens, offering a $1 burger, and they make a forum thread to complain about it. They feel threatened by this new restaurant, feeling that its presence will somehow influence their clients, which they are very fearful of loosing.



Leon, I understood your point a few posts back. 

Am I worried about a library replacing my work? Not a chance. 

I simply took this as an example of a bigger issue facing the creative arts world. What I am concerned about is that the mindset isn't isolated to the low end anymore, and that the bulk-rate concept is already infiltrating the highest ends of the production world. That's all. Probably the wrong thread for that.


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## snowleopard (Feb 23, 2010)

Keep in mind that knowledge is power, and time is money. 

Think of it like a warehouse of weapons, and the producer/director the owner of the warehouse. They may own a huge stockpile, but how much time to they really have to go through all of them, get familiar with them all, what they can do, and remember all that. Then, a few months later when they need to make a kill, try to go back into that warehouse and remember which crate the 50 caliber rifle was in and how to use if. Why deal with all of that when you can just hire a professional sniper to do the job properly? 

How long, and how much effort would it take a busy producer/editor to not just listen to, but become familiar with 37 hours of library music? 

Sure, like Dcoscina says, it’s another step and we shouldn’t be surprised. But if anything, what this really does is compete with other libraries. And there’s already a Mt. Everest pile of them out there. 

I’m more worried about producers/directors getting desperate composers to work for free/cheap. How many times have we lamented all the times we’ve been asked to work for free//cheap/credit, because someone else did?


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## Ed (Feb 23, 2010)

germancomponist @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> Ed @ Tue Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know its good music?
> ...



Ok at first I thought it was pretty good, which got me a little annoyed but quickly I realised that there was actually *very little *content there.

The "best" library seems to be "storm gathering" in that it contains at most ONLY 3 actual pieces of music. 

The first cd of childrens music is also nice however only contains maybe 2 different pieces of music. 

The blues cd is just riffs and the rest is just the same as the others. 

Basically I look at it like this, you are getting various versions of essentially ONE or two tracks for $20. Thats still pretty cheap, but its nowhere near as bad as I thought. When they start doing full cds *such as this* for 20$ I'll get scared


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## mf (Feb 23, 2010)

Leon Willett @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> There is a group of world-class gourmet chefs. They are outraged, bitter and fearful that there are so many MacDonalds restaurants opening. Another MacDonalds opens, offering a $1 burger, and they make a forum thread to complain about it. They feel threatened by this new restaurant, feeling that its presence will somehow influence their clients, which they are very fearful of loosing.
> 
> The truth is that the presence of MacDonalds restaurants is completely irrelevant. Even some gourmet fans take their kids to MacDonalds sometimes. No big deal. Gourmet fans will continue to sit at your tables, and MacDonald fans will have a new venue.
> 
> ...


That's the best analogy. Very well put.

You have to have really good chops and solid credentials though, otherwise your gourmet dishes will so easily be mistaken for hotdogs.


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## Leon Willett (Feb 23, 2010)

kdm @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> [What I am concerned about is that the mindset isn't isolated to the low end anymore, and that the bulk-rate concept is already infiltrating the highest ends of the production world.


OK -- I get you. I just don't agree. In my opinion, if that mindset infiltrates a production, then that production is no longer "high end".


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## lux (Feb 24, 2010)

i remember when i started doin some webdesign i joined a website that gave me a subscription for a lof of hours of library music (mostly shit) to place on website designs and such. It was many years ago.

In general i think its probably old story. And there's still a market which can benefit of mass generic music licensing libraries. I dont feel concerned a lot by that. 

I see and share also Leon's view. I'll add that i think also mid-end production do benefit and look for real music, perhaps for a matter of unicity of the final product (market is a mess for them too, lets not forget that).

Still small website developers, town based radio and video commercial producers will benefit from large generic offers for small works. Nothing scandalous to me.


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## George Caplan (Feb 24, 2010)

Leon Willett @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> This is only worrying if you believe your music can be replaced by library music.




of course it can. everything can be replaced by anything. a comedian once said\ I woke up one morning to find everything in the house had gotten stolen and replaced with exact replicas.

when it comes to money its always good to remember that its a bottom up world and usually not a top down one. bottom up is where the money is.


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## Ed (Feb 24, 2010)

It will all even out. 

If it became normal that you could get quality music for that cheap, then it means no composers could afford to compose. Then, you'd have a lack of composers so there'd be a lack of content and quality. Therefore there would now be a new demand for quality music at a higher price.

See? Its economics


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## JohnG (Feb 24, 2010)

George Caplan @ 24th February 2010 said:


> when it comes to money its always good to remember that its a bottom up world and usually not a top down one. bottom up is where the money is.



I agree. 

The assumption that people want "quality" is true. Unfortunately, what that expression means depends on buyer perception, not ours. Unfortunately, for many buyers of music, the expression "quality" has fallen to around the level of Garageband, for an enormous amount of work.

Add to that the habit in an online world of not really wanting to deal with someone as messy as a human being -- a composer in this case -- and "good enough" becomes very acceptable.


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## madbulk (Feb 24, 2010)

George Caplan @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> a comedian once said\ I woke up one morning to find everything in the house had gotten stolen and replaced with exact replicas.



I have a few friends who are comedians. You think we value attribution in our set? Those guys are wacky about it. Your joke is from Steven Wright.

My favorite musical joke of his is when he sits down with a guitar to sing you a little song he wrote the other night about something that was very meaningful to him. He tells a little of the story and the title and as he begins to play the guitar intro he says, "It doesn't go 'a little something like this.' It actually goes EXACTLY like this...."


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## kdm (Feb 24, 2010)

Leon Willett @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> OK -- I get you. I just don't agree. In my opinion, if that mindset infiltrates a production, then that production is no longer "high end".



That makes sense, and I actually do completely agree with your definition of "high end". 

I think we only differed in interpretation of what is happening in the marketplace itself. Perhaps it would have made more sense if I had said I think the high end is shrinking, or at least, as John G pointed out, the definition of what consumers consider acceptable "quality" is declining. Neither changes the definition of "high end" as we might perceive it, but it could affect how much work is available for composers, at least imho.

Regardless, I do hope we see a resurgence of demand for original art in many forms.


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