# Tracking a Killer



## KEM (May 6, 2022)

Hey everyone, I'm back with a short track inspired by Saw and other modern horror movies, this is the first track I've been able to start and finish all on the Mac Studio (I have some much bigger stuff coming in the near future). Feedback and constructive criticism is always welcome, check it out and enjoy!!


SoundCloud:


YouTube:


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## Trash Panda (May 6, 2022)

Sounds like some Nine Inch Nails style ambience, so mission accomplished!


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## doctoremmet (May 6, 2022)

Excellent work Kenneth. Love this. The phasey noisy bits sprinkled over that 808. I need that on a two hour loop…


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## KEM (May 6, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Sounds like some Nine Inch Nails style ambience, so mission accomplished!



Definitely tried to lean into those classic industrial vibes, I love those old Manson records that Reznor produced in the 90s, always been a big influence of mine!!


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## KEM (May 6, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Excellent work Kenneth. Love this. The phasey noisy bits sprinkled over that 808. I need that on a two hour loop…



You know I love my 808s!! And Stutter Edit 2, there’s a lot of it going on in this track


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## doctoremmet (May 6, 2022)

KEM said:


> You know I love my 808s!! And Stutter Edit 2, there’s a lot of it going on in this track


I mean it though Ken my man. Sonically and musically THIS is straight up my alley. It simply sounds very good. Props.


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## Alchemedia (May 6, 2022)

Killer track Ken!


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## Pier (May 6, 2022)

Fantastic stuff Kenneth!


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## KEM (May 6, 2022)

Alchemedia said:


> Killer track Ken!





Pier said:


> Fantastic stuff Kenneth!



Thank you guys!! Also @Pier I don’t know if you noticed but we actually turned down the limiting on the final version, one of the only times you’ll ever see me go with less limiting


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## KEM (May 6, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I mean it though Ken my man. Sonically and musically THIS is straight up my alley. It simply sounds very good. Props.



Hopefully one of these days I’ll get the opportunity to score a horror film, that’d be a perfect playground for me to go as loud and distorted as possible!!


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## Pier (May 6, 2022)

KEM said:


> Thank you guys!! Also @Pier I don’t know if you noticed but we actually turned down the limiting on the final version, one of the only times you’ll ever see me go with less limiting


I hadn't noticed 

Good decision though. You can't mix/master cinematic stuff like EDM you know?


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## KEM (May 6, 2022)

Pier said:


> I hadn't noticed
> 
> Good decision though. You can't mix/master cinematic stuff like EDM you know?



Says who?! There are no rules!!

Whatever goes in the film we keep more dynamic as the dialogue and sound effects are most important and we aren’t trying to fight those, but for the music itself that’ll go on the soundtrack albums we really want it to be loud and I don’t see anything wrong with that!


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## Pier (May 7, 2022)

KEM said:


> Says who?! There are no rules!!
> 
> Whatever goes in the film we keep more dynamic as the dialogue and sound effects are most important and we aren’t trying to fight those, but for the music itself that’ll go on the soundtrack albums we really want it to be loud and I don’t see anything wrong with that!


The problem is not really if it's loud or not, but rather that too much compression/limiting destroys your audio.

Modern limiters like Elevate are really good at preserving the original audio. Up to a point... There's just so much you can squash a signal before it loses punch, dynamics, clarity, etc.

Of course the brain prefers louder signals for evolutionary reasons but try to gain match before and after compression/limiting to really hear what you're doing to the music.


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## doctoremmet (May 7, 2022)

Pier said:


> The problem is not really if it's loud or not, but rather that too much compression/limiting destroys your audio.
> 
> Modern limiters like Elevate are really good at preserving the original audio. Up to a point... There's just so much you can squash a signal before it loses punch, dynamics, clarity, etc.
> 
> Of course the brain prefers louder signals for evolutionary reasons but try to gain match before and after compression/limiting to really hear what you're doing to the music.


Pier, you should mention that ^ this was actually a literal quote taken from a conversation between Hans Zimmer and Kanye. It is really uncool to act as if this is you talking…


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## Pier (May 7, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Pier, you should mention that ^ this was actually a literal quote taken from a conversation between Hans Zimmer and Kanye. It is really uncool to act as if this is you talking…


I'm just speaking facts here! 😂

Now in all seriousness, you have a link to a video of that conversation?


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## KEM (May 7, 2022)

Pier said:


> The problem is not really if it's loud or not, but rather that too much compression/limiting destroys your audio.
> 
> Modern limiters like Elevate are really good at preserving the original audio. Up to a point... There's just so much you can squash a signal before it loses punch, dynamics, clarity, etc.
> 
> Of course the brain prefers louder signals for evolutionary reasons but try to gain match before and after compression/limiting to really hear what you're doing to the music.



But what if I just really like the sound of heavy clipping/limiting? Don’t forgot this my favorite album of all time:


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## grabauf (May 7, 2022)

Awesome. Love the mood of this track.


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## KEM (May 7, 2022)

grabauf said:


> Awesome. Love the mood of this track.



Thank you very much!!


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## Pier (May 7, 2022)

KEM said:


> But what if I just really like the sound of heavy clipping/limiting?


It's fine, you can do whatever you want 

But do you hear heavy clipping/limiting in Tenet? The Dark Knight? Inception? Black Panther? The Mandalorian? Next time you finish something compare the mix/master with a reference from Ludwig or HZ. Switch from your stuff to the pro stuff back and forth. Very important: don't change the gain of your monitoring when switching.


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## KEM (May 7, 2022)

Pier said:


> It's fine, you can do whatever you want
> 
> But do you hear heavy clipping/limiting in Tenet? The Dark Knight? Inception? Black Panther? The Mandalorian? Next time you finish something compare the mix/master with a reference from Ludwig or HZ. Switch from your stuff to the pro stuff back and forth. Very important: don't change the gain of your monitoring when switching.



TENET definitely does have some limiting going on, actually the entire film sounds like it was limited pretty heavily according to all the people complaining about its sound mix and let’s not forget that it is the greatest film score of all time

My goal isn’t to adhere to tradition, it’s to usher in a new era of soundtrack mixes/masters, I want Kanye West level film scores!!


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## el-bo (May 7, 2022)

Like the sounds and could definitely imagine the piece working for a horror cue


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## KEM (May 7, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Like the sounds and could definitely imagine the piece working for a horror cue



Thank you! That’s exactly what I want to hear!


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## KEM (May 7, 2022)

Also fun fact @Pier @doctoremmet I actually took a sample of Kanye screaming and pitched it down, time stretched it, and added a bunch of distortion, delay, and reverb to make a bass pad in this track


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## KEM (May 7, 2022)

Oh and the 808 I used in this track is the same one that Kanye used in this song:


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## SupremeFist (May 8, 2022)

gnarly and cool af, nice one 🤘🏻


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## KEM (May 8, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> gnarly and cool af, nice one 🤘🏻



Thank you!! Those gnarlier sounds come from my usual offenders of MO-TT and Gainstation 2, combining them gets some really brutal results especially when you’re putting them on top of something like the Knifonium (which then has to be turned down by about -60db to actually fit in the mix lol)


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## Pier (May 8, 2022)

KEM said:


> TENET definitely does have some limiting going on, actually the entire film sounds like it was limited pretty heavily according to all the people complaining about its sound mix and let’s not forget that it is the greatest film score of all time
> 
> My goal isn’t to adhere to tradition, it’s to usher in a new era of soundtrack mixes/masters, I want Kanye West level film scores!!


Of course, 99% of the audio mastered today has some sort of limiting applied. The question is how much you're doing it.

The problem with Tenet is not the limiting, but that the dialogue was mixed way too low. The score itself sounds amazing.


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## KEM (May 8, 2022)

Pier said:


> Of course, 99% of the audio mastered today has some sort of limiting applied. The question is how much you're doing it.
> 
> The problem with Tenet is not the limiting, but that the dialogue was mixed way too low. The score itself sounds amazing.



That’s one of the reasons why I love it so much and why it’s my favorite film mix, Christopher Nolan knew he had the greatest score of all time on his hands so he made the (correct) decision to make sure it was the most prominent part of the mix, we need more directors like that!!


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## KEM (May 8, 2022)

Just wait until my first ever Hollywood film score comes out and all the waveforms look like this…


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## Bee_Abney (May 8, 2022)

Lovely piece. I found it very pleasant and comforting. For some reason, I find this kind of intense atmospheric music relaxing. Probably the lack of dynamic variation....

Sorry, please forgive the obvious jab! Follow your own star, it may take you to great places.

Regardless, this was a good piece that achieved what you set out to with it.


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## carlc (May 8, 2022)

KEM said:


> Just wait until my first ever Hollywood film score comes out and all the waveforms look like this…


Dan Worrall has thrown the gauntlet down...


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## KEM (May 8, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Lovely piece. I found it very pleasant and comforting. For some reason, I find this kind of intense atmospheric music relaxing. Probably the lack of dynamic variation....
> 
> Sorry, please forgive the obvious jab! Follow your own star, it may take you to great places.
> 
> Regardless, this was a good piece that achieved what you set out to with it.



Relaxing?!


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## KEM (May 8, 2022)

carlc said:


> Dan Worrall has thrown the gauntlet down...




That sounds like a challenge… I accept


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## carlc (May 8, 2022)

KEM said:


> That sounds like a challenge… I accept


Most streaming services start to penalize you once you exceed the -14 to -16 LUFS (depending on the service). Louder EDM masters (pre-penalty) tend to be in the -6 to -4 LUFS range. Dan's track achieves +2.3 LUFS which is insane. 

The actual track “I Won the Loudness War” is available for free on Spotify, but I would be careful playing it. Search for it at your own risk  I will say that you can see the Spotify penalty in full effect if you play it back through an audio interface since the meters will be pegged at around -6dB with almost zero motion. 

Since Spotify applies the penalty as a fixed volume reduction (not a dynamic adjustment), you could in theory download the track and normalize it to 0dB to get back to the full +2.3 LUFS version. Again, not recommended.


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## cedricm (May 8, 2022)

Not enough low end.

Just kidding !


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## KEM (May 8, 2022)

carlc said:


> Most streaming services start to penalize you once you exceed the -14 to -16 LUFS (depending on the service). Louder EDM masters (pre-penalty) tend to be in the -6 to -4 LUFS range. Dan's track achieves +2.3 LUFS which is insane.
> 
> The actual track “I Won the Loudness War” is available for free on Spotify, but I would be careful playing it. Search for it at your own risk  I will say that you can see the Spotify penalty in full effect if you play it back through an audio interface since the meters will be pegged at around -6dB with almost zero motion.
> 
> Since Spotify applies the penalty as a fixed volume reduction (not a dynamic adjustment), you could in theory download the track and normalize it to 0dB to get back to the full +2.3 LUFS version. Again, not recommended.



I think we usually hit around -12 lufs for most of my masters but I’d have to check, but I’m certain it’s in that range. It also depends on the intent of the piece, if it’s a fun romantic comedy style cue obviously we’ll keep that light and dynamic, but if it’s an intense modern action cue of course we’re gonna push that pretty far


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## KEM (May 8, 2022)

cedricm said:


> Not enough low end.
> 
> Just kidding !



Believe it or not we actually decided to tame some of the low end on this one!! We originally had it pushed a bit more


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## Bee_Abney (May 8, 2022)

KEM said:


> Relaxing?!


Well, I do listen to ghost stories to help me get to sleep. I just feel at home in that space.


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## KEM (May 8, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Well, I do listen to ghost stories to help me get to sleep.



Fair enough, I usually watch horror movies right before I go to sleep lol


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## Henu (May 9, 2022)

What a surprise, Kanye's commercially released songs are limited "a bit differently" than cues that are supposed to be put into a movie. :D

That being said, I kind of enjoyed the track. Hats off to the fact already that I could prolly never pull that kind of sound off myself, haha!


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## antret (May 10, 2022)

I love me some moody, electronica. . I took a quick listen on my phone and the 1st thing I noticed was the hugeness (!) of it …, even on these dinky speakers I could feel the gravitas oozing through. Quite impressed!


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## KEM (May 10, 2022)

antret said:


> I love me some moody, electronica. . I took a quick listen on my phone and the 1st thing I noticed was the hugeness (!) of it …, even on these dinky speakers I could feel the gravitas oozing through. Quite impressed!



Thank you! My main reference speakers for all of my final mixes is actually my iPhone, my mindset has always been that if you can get a mix to translate well to an iPhone then it’ll translate well to pretty much any speaker, so I always listen to my stuff a few times through on my phone to make sure they still sounds full before I post them


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## Bee_Abney (May 11, 2022)

KEM said:


> Thank you! My main reference speakers for all of my final mixes is actually my iPhone, my mindset has always been that if you can get a mix to translate well to an iPhone then it’ll translate well to pretty much any speaker, so I always listen to my stuff a few times through on my phone to make sure they still sounds full before I post them



That's really interesting. I have tried the same; but I find it very difficult to get a mix that works on a phone speaker which also satisfies me on other speakers. Things that should be barely there on decent speakers simply disappear on phone speakers, that sort of thing.


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## KEM (May 11, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> That's really interesting. I have tried the same; but I find it very difficult to get a mix that works on a phone speaker which also satisfies me on other speakers. Things that should be barely there on decent speakers simply disappear on phone speakers, that sort of thing.



Definitely, that’s part of why it’s important to me. Of course we mix/master on much higher quality monitors but the thing I like about the iPhone is that it’s pretty unforgiving, to get something to sound good on an iPhone you have to get it to sound REALLY good on the monitors

Also, 90% of the time I listen to music it’s through my iPhone speakers, and pretty much everyone I know does the same, so it’s important for a mix to sound good on the iPhone since it’s where everyone is listening to music


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## doctoremmet (May 11, 2022)

KEM said:


> since it’s where everyone is listening to music


It's sentences like this when you realize your 16 year old daughter was right after all when she last said "OK boomer", and there is no use in arguing I'm Gen-X. I'm OLD regardless. In my defense: I do own an iPhone.


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## Bee_Abney (May 11, 2022)

KEM said:


> Definitely, that’s part of why it’s important to me. Of course we mix/master on much higher quality monitors but the thing I like about the iPhone is that it’s pretty unforgiving, to get something to sound good on an iPhone you have to get it to sound REALLY good on the monitors
> 
> Also, 90% of the time I listen to music it’s through my iPhone speakers, and pretty much everyone I know does the same, so it’s important for a mix to sound good on the iPhone since it’s where everyone is listening to music



I understand the reason for wanting a mix to work on phone speakers. But I have not found it to be the case that mixing for phones leads to the best mixes for regular speakers or headphones. I'm still working at it, but I believe that some musical ideas simply won't translate to phone speakers.

For example, sub bass may be important to the mix, or panning, 3D effects. Mixing with reference to a phone seems to me more about compromising so that the mix still sounds decent on the phone, even if it cannot give the listener the full experience.


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## KEM (May 11, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> It's sentences like this when you realize your 16 year old daughter was right after all when she last said "OK boomer", and there is no use in arguing I'm Gen-X. I'm OLD regardless. In my defense: I do own an iPhone.



I’m proud of you for owning an iPhone and not an Android, although Europeans do seem to be more cultured than Americans so it makes sense. I had to tell my 71 year old dad about the “Ok boomer” meme a few months ago and get him up to speed, and he actually was a baby boomer!!


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## Bee_Abney (May 11, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m proud of you for owning an iPhone and not an Android, although Europeans do seem to be more cultured than Americans so it makes sense. I had to tell my 71 year old dad about the “Ok boomer” meme a few months ago and get him up to speed, and he actually was a baby boomer!!



My first reaction was that seventy-one seems a bit young to have been born in a post World War II fecundity boom; but apparently births as late as 1964 count as being in this boom period. That's a longer boom than the war!

I suppose it lasts until the first of the generation born in the boom reach adulthood (twenty-one).


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## doctoremmet (May 11, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m proud of you for owning an iPhone and not an Android, although Europeans do seem to be more cultured than Americans so it makes sense. I had to tell my 71 year old dad about the “Ok boomer” meme a few months ago and get him up to speed, and he actually was a baby boomer!!


Owned an iPhone since the very first edition!  - I also build my own PCs, and have upgraded and maxed out an iMac with iFixit tools once haha. Plus I regularly break out the old soldering station to fix old analog and digital synthesizer hardware. I’ve even restrung my Hohner Clavinet and completely overhauled it with new rubber hammertips (that’s 60 strings). So in terms of tech savviness I’m not a noob. But when it comes to drill rap, neurofunk and listening to music on crappy speakers, I’m puzzled.


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## Bee_Abney (May 11, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Owned an iPhone since the very first edition!  - I also build my own PCs, and have upgraded and maxed out an iMac with iFixit tools once haha. Plus I regularly break out the old soldering station to fix old analog and digital synthesizer hardware. I’ve even restrung my Hohner Clavinet and completely overhauled it with new rubber hammertips (that’s 60 strings). So in terms of tech savviness I’m not a noob. But when it comes to drill rap, neurofunk and listening to music on crappy speakers, I’m puzzled.


Okay, boomer.


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## KEM (May 11, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I understand the reason for wanting a mix to work on phone speakers. But I have not found it to be the case that mixing for phones leads to the best mixes for regular speakers or headphones. I'm still working at it, but I believe that some musical ideas simply won't translate to phone speakers.
> 
> For example, sub bass may be important to the mix, or panning, 3D effects. Mixing with reference to a phone seems to me more about compromising so that the mix still sounds decent on the phone, even if it cannot give the listener the full experience.



Yeah exactly, bass is a perfect example, since iPhone’s don’t have much bass it forces you to focus on the mids and highs, and as a result you might hear things that you didn’t notice on the monitors when the bass can swallow up everything else, low end just feels great to hear and can sometimes distract from more detailed listening, that’s an issue that I have at least 

With the way I produce I often have very quiet sounds for ear candy that just add a bit of depth and detail and with how bad my room sounds the iPhone is great for hearing if those sounds are too noticeable and poking out or if they’re just adding a bit of vibe like they’re supposed to. iPhone’s can also distort pretty easily if the mix/master isn’t good so it’s good for checking that as well


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## KEM (May 11, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> My first reaction was that seventy-one seems a bit young to have been born in a post World War II fecundity boom; but apparently births as late as 1964 count as being in this boom period. That's a longer boom than the war!
> 
> I suppose it lasts until the first of the generation born in the boom reach adulthood (twenty-one).



He was born in 1950 in Memphis, Tennessee, the second of 5 kids. 5 years after WW2 ended so definitely during the height of the baby boomer era!



doctoremmet said:


> Owned an iPhone since the very first edition!  - I also build my own PCs, and have upgraded and maxed out an iMac with iFixit tools once haha. Plus I regularly break out the old soldering station to fix old analog and digital synthesizer hardware. I’ve even restrung my Hohner Clavinet and completely overhauled it with new rubber hammertips (that’s 60 strings). So in terms of tech savviness I’m not a noob. But when it comes to drill rap, neurofunk and listening to music on crappy speakers, I’m puzzled.



That’s more tech work than I usually do, I don’t ever wanna see the internals of my tech!! And you know, some say I know a thing or two about these modern genres all the kids are listening to


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## Bee_Abney (May 11, 2022)

KEM said:


> Yeah exactly, bass is a perfect example, since iPhone’s don’t have much bass it forces you to focus on the mids and highs, and as a result you might hear things that you didn’t notice on the monitors when the bass can swallow up everything else, low end just feels great to hear and can sometimes distract from more detailed listening, that’s an issue that I have at least
> 
> With the way I produce I often have very quiet sounds for ear candy that just add a bit of depth and detail and with how bad my room sounds the iPhone is great for hearing if those sounds are too noticeable and poking out or if they’re just adding a bit of vibe like they’re supposed to. iPhone’s can also distort pretty easily if the mix/master isn’t good so it’s good for checking that as well


I agree that all of that is useful, but you also want to get the best mix for good speakers. The reverse applies too: what works on a phone can face issues on decent speakers and headphones.

So referencing with a phone is helpful, but the mix needs to perform its best on the primary destination - that is, speakers that aren't awful!


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## Bee_Abney (May 11, 2022)

Okay, so five years after World War II is the height of the baby boom. So, um, just how long were people having increased amounts of sex after the war ended? Didn't they have reconstruction to attend to? Making a sandwich?


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## KEM (May 11, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I agree that all of that is useful, but you also want to get the best mix for good speakers. The reverse applies too: what works on a phone can face issues on decent speakers and headphones.
> 
> So referencing with a phone is helpful, but the mix needs to perform its best on the primary destination - that is, speakers that aren't awful!



Not arguing that at all!! I compose on Emotiva Airmotiv 6s monitors with a JBL sub, and my mixing/mastering engineer uses the Yamaha HS8 (with a sub I forgot the name of but it goes lower than mine), so we’re always doing the actual work on quality equipment, the iPhone is just that very last final test for me


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## Pier (May 11, 2022)

KEM said:


> Also, 90% of the time I listen to music it’s through my iPhone speakers, and pretty much everyone I know does the same


Rant incoming! 

Of all the things people have been doing with the advent of smartphones this is the one that irks me the most.

In part because it's a huge disrespect to music itself. It's like "Fuck music. I will just destroy it through these crappy speakers and fuck all the effort that was put into writing/performing/engineering this. Who cares about the cellos and basses that some german guy wrote 300 years ago. Fuck him. Oh and those producers and their basslines and 808s? Fuck them too." 😂

The other aspect is that now we have people blasting noise through their smartphones in public spaces all the time. While walking, sitting somewhere, or even in the goddam theater. Same thing with people having on-speaker calls in a public spaces. I mean, what is wrong with these people?

Now in all seriousness, it bothers me but I totally get the average person doesn't care. There's so much stuff I don't care about too. But what I don't understand is... why would someone aspiring to become a pro in the music/audio industry listen to music on a phone speaker "90% of the time"?

And don't get me any of that "ok boomer" crap  This is not a generational thing. It already happened when I was 18 years old with small crappy radios. Even when I was 18 I always listened to music with the best speakers/headphones that were available to me.


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## doctoremmet (May 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> Same thing with people having on-speaker calls in a public spaces. I mean, what is wrong with these people?


I say hang them


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## Bee_Abney (May 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> Rant incoming!
> 
> Of all the things people have been doing with the advent of smartphones this is the one that irks me the most.
> 
> ...


Okay, b[REDACTED]


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## KEM (May 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> Rant incoming!
> 
> Of all the things people have been doing with the advent of smartphones this is the one that irks me the most.
> 
> ...



Honestly it’s just a convenience thing, I have my iPhone on me at all times so it’s easy to just pull it out of my pocket and hit play on a song, no effort or extra equipment required

Also I’m 100% the guy that’s also blasting music on my phone in public places  just last night I went to see Doctor Strange 2 with my friend and we needed to check a mix so we listened to it in the theaters while the trailers were playing (don’t worry we turned it down) and I find myself on FaceTime a lot when I’m out in public, even when I’m at work I’ll get bored and just play some music on my phone, never been one to care about my surroundings I guess


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## Bee_Abney (May 11, 2022)

Pier said:


> Rant incoming!
> 
> Of all the things people have been doing with the advent of smartphones this is the one that irks me the most.
> 
> ...


I'll try again. 

Okay, but it could be a case of listening to YouTube or Twitch, so lots of music listened to in poor quality, but with quality time and equipment used for serious listening.


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## KEM (May 11, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I'll try again.
> 
> Okay, but it could be a case of listening to YouTube or Twitch, so lots of music listened to in poor quality, but with quality time and equipment used for serious listening.



Pretty much, I have never and will never make music on an iPhone lol, it’s just a good way to check how a mix will sound for the average person since everyone has one


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