# End of Days: IV Second Coming



## Morodiene (Feb 27, 2017)

This is the 4th movement of my oratorio, _End of Days_, called The Second Coming. Written for orchestra and choir.

I'd appreciate feedback, mainly looking for recording and mixing suggestions, but all feedback is welcome. 

https://app.box.com/s/mtow1t8j87ssuu7k3lkyvrnqg3fxd77x

A little bit of context: this comes after the 3rd movement which I have posted on here before, but prior to this there is a recitative that the chorus sings setting up the scene on the eve of the battle Armageddon. I didn't record the recit part, but it does go straight into the Second Coming section, so the beginning may seem a bit out of the blue.

Here are the lyrics (mostly taken from Revelation 19:11-16 and Philippians 2:9-11):

Then I saw heaven opened
And behold, a white horse
And the one sitting on it
Is called Faithful and True.

And in righteousness he judges,
And in righteousness he makes war,
From his mouth comes a sharp sword
With which to strike down the nations.

He is clothed in a robe
That is dipped in blood
Heaven's armies arrayed in white linen (bright and pure),
On his robe and on his thigh
Is the name written:

Beloved Son,
Emmanuel,
Alpha and Omega,
Prince of Peace,
Counselor,
The Way, the Truth, and the Life,
King of Kings,
And Lord of Lords,
Faithful and True.

God has highly exalted him,
And giv'n him the name above all names,
So that at the name of Jesus
Every knee shall bow
In heaven and on earth
And under the earth
Every tongue confess
That Jesus Christ is Lord,
To the glory of God the Father,
That Jesus Christ is Lord.

Here's a video with an updated audio:

​


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 27, 2017)

Super, congrats Morodiene! This had me smiling and appreciating your harmonies. I only had a problem with the sound of the midrange brass, within the first minute or so. It might have just been a pesky frequency that could be remedied with EQ, not the instrument itself.

The strings are at times just perfect to my ears, overall smooth yet having just enough ruggedness to satisfy any "realism" I could ask for. I'm guessing you spent some time on their sound post-composition.

I'm also wondering if starting at 3:55 if you wanted so much of it so choppy. Perhaps experiment a little with different attacks on the instruments, one or two more softened attacks might really sound great...but I'm telling you what I'd do, certainly the piece is a fine one (and, as mentioned, a smile bringer!). I would definitely check out any midrange frequency spikes though.


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## Morodiene (Feb 27, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Super, congrats Morodiene! This had me smiling and appreciating your harmonies. I only had a problem with the sound of the midrange brass, within the first minute or so. It might have just been a pesky frequency that could be remedied with EQ, not the instrument itself.
> 
> The strings are at times just perfect to my ears, overall smooth yet having just enough ruggedness to satisfy any "realism" I could ask for. I'm guessing you spent some time on their sound post-composition.
> 
> I'm also wondering if starting at 3:55 if you wanted so much of it so choppy. Perhaps experiment a little with different attacks on the instruments, one or two more softened attacks might really sound great...but I'm telling you what I'd do, certainly the piece is a fine one (and, as mentioned, a smile bringer!). I would definitely check out any midrange frequency spikes though.


Thanks! Regarding the midrange spikes, how do you go about finding those? I'm using Logic X which I know has an EQ plugin, but not sure how to find a particular frequency with it.


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 27, 2017)

The easiest way to find a problem frequency is to set up a narrow EQ boost. Yes a boost. Then move it up and down the spectrum until you locate that problem frequency, at which point you can do a cut. It is much easier to find problem frequencies with a boost than a cut.

I just said a short prayer for your success in your efforts to proclaim His word through music. 

The problems seem to be mainly in the brass, but also I noticed the flute/piccolo being unnaturally bright maybe? Maybe not if it is a piccolo, they can be very shrill. What are you using for brass? Strings sound great.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 27, 2017)

Listening back, it sounds more like a frequency issue. If you have any sort of spectrum analyzer (or just buy the magnificent Pro Q, which...it's all you might need for EQ, put it that way), and set the view right, you'll see that sucker poking up. And of course, Paul had the right idea.

If you don't have a spectrum analyzer, I believe Voxengo's Span has a free version on their site, and that can be very helpful. It can at least give you a good idea of what you need to cut, or boost. Remember that it's usually better to cut than boost, at least in my experience.


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## Morodiene (Feb 27, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> The easiest way to find a problem frequency is to set up a narrow EQ boost. Yes a boost. Then move it up and down the spectrum until you locate that problem frequency, at which point you can do a cut. It is much easier to find problem frequencies with a boost than a cut.
> 
> I just said a short prayer for your success in your efforts to proclaim His word through music.
> 
> The problems seem to be mainly in the brass, but also I noticed the flute/piccolo being unnaturally bright maybe? Maybe not if it is a piccolo, they can be very shrill. What are you using for brass? Strings sound great.


Thanks, Paul! Yes, there is piccolo in there, toward the middle where everything cuts out and you just have strings.

Everything is done with HWO and EW Symphonic Choirs.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 27, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Thanks, Paul! Yes, there is piccolo in there, toward the middle where everything cuts out and you just have strings.
> 
> Everything is done with HWO and EW Symphonic Choirs.



SUPER smooth job on those choirs, Morodiene. I know, I've programmed EWSC many times over the years. It can be quite the challenge.


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 27, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Thanks, Paul! Yes, there is piccolo in there, toward the middle where everything cuts out and you just have strings.
> 
> Everything is done with HWO and EW Symphonic Choirs.



I am using 100% VSL instruments, so I have no experience with HWO or EW. However, lots of people get good results with those libraries, and there is no doubt something is less than ideal in the mix. It does sound better on my audioengine 5+ monitors than on my Bose speakers. I know the best engineers somehow find a way to make a mix sound great on almost any speakers, but I don't know how to do it. I do think the piccolo is too shrill in this context, a flute, probably down an octave, would be less obtrusive and more beautiful in my view.

If I was in your shoes I would send a PM to several of the other users on this forum who use those libraries and ask them for advice.

Sometimes it is hard to hear our own work with fresh ears. Many times I will work on attempts to improve a mix, and after hours of messing around, I realize it is worse than when I started.

I like your composition. I appreciate the aesthetics of your style. The subject matter of this piece is a very big, epic story. There is no story that is bigger, or more epic, or with bigger consequences for the world, and for each of us as individuals. I would challenge you to somehow find a way to express the sheer magnitude of this story. I know I could not do it.


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## novaburst (Feb 27, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> This had me smiling



very nice work @Morodiene 4real, is it possible to post the previous pieces, as to listen one after the other, if thats not to much trouble.


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## Morodiene (Feb 27, 2017)

novaburst said:


> very nice work @Morodiene 4real, is it possible to post the previous pieces, as to listen one after the other, if thats not to much trouble.


Sure, here's the 3rd movement:
https://app.box.com/s/2s8qk35d9fmiilsntgxxm436c70bcvru

I probably won't record the other movements unless I can have them played live


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## novaburst (Feb 27, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Sure, here's the 3rd movement:
> https://app.box.com/s/2s8qk35d9fmiilsntgxxm436c70bcvru
> 
> I probably won't record the other movements unless I can have them played live



Thank you.


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## hag01 (Feb 27, 2017)

Wow, super beautiful composition!
Exactly to my musical taste!


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## Daisser (Feb 27, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> This is the 4th movement of my oratorio, _End of Days_, called The Second Coming. Written for orchestra and choir.
> 
> I'd appreciate feedback, mainly looking for recording and mixing suggestions, but all feedback is welcome.
> 
> ...



Very pretty, lot's of positive energy as it moves along!


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## dimtsak (Feb 28, 2017)

Great job @Morodiene! It is beautiful.
And it sounds really appropriate to the text.

The only thing that strikes me a little, are some timing issues with the performance.
But i think it will really shine if it performed live sometime.
Do you have the score for it, or you write directly to the DAW?


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## Morodiene (Feb 28, 2017)

dimtsak said:


> Great job @Morodiene! It is beautiful.
> And it sounds really appropriate to the text.
> 
> The only thing that strikes me a little, is some timing issues with the performance.
> ...


Thanks, my plan is to have it performed live. I compose in Finale first, and then record in Logic. Actually, the purpose of this recording and the previous movement is to submit to a conductor, along with the score for the full oratorio. Hopefully the conductor I have in mind will want to perform it next season.


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## novaburst (Feb 28, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> https://app.box.com/s/mtow1t8j87ssuu7k3lkyvrnqg3fxd77x



I think its such a nice arrangement it really looks like you thought this through, it does have something special there I cant explain, I know you wanting it for a live recording, and hope you keep the arrangement in tacked.

at 1:12 that choir part was very nice starting out with mostly male then ended with a nice swell at 1:36 then into the chorus, that made me smile, then at 2:03 a very nice string part leading into the choir again and your winds then what I think was a diminished chord was very nice.

at 2:38 the string staccatos and your brass work really gave it a nice contrast then carrying the same vibe with the choir 

nice peacefully part at 3:10 setting us up very nice. 

coming to the end at 4:15 starting with Jesus Christ is Lord into a great epic end and that brass

I think the whole piece was pretty epic, thats what I heard anyway.

@Morodiene Some great midi work and skill, but the arrangement was bang I hope it carries over to the live recording.


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## Morodiene (Feb 28, 2017)

@novaburst Thank you so much! I hope so too.  And I have to finish the 5th movement (which is also the last), and somehow it's got to top this one. I'm trying for a double fugue, but we'll see what happens


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## hag01 (Mar 1, 2017)

Hey Morodiene, where can I find the other movements of this piece?
I'm listing to this all day now, I've became addicted.
Would be also glad to hear other materials of yours.

And I also want to ask whether it is OK if I share this piece with friends and family(maybe through social media)?


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## Morodiene (Mar 1, 2017)

Hag01 said:


> Hey Morodiene, where can I find the other movements of this piece?
> I'm listing to this all day now, I've became addicted.
> Would be also glad to hear other materials of yours.
> 
> And I also want to ask whether it is OK if I share this piece with friends and family(maybe through social media)?


I only have the other movements on Finale, and two of the five are still being edited. I don't wish to share even the finished one, though, because I don't think Finale playbacks are any good 

For other works, I'm currently working on an arrangement of Saint-Saens' Danse Macabre which I should be able to post in the coming weeks, but this is my first venture into orchestral writing. I have some piano solo things, but nothing I feel is really worthwhile.

As for sharing, you can share privately, but please don't make it public on Facebook or something. I post here to get feedback, but I don't want to detract from whichever conductor decides to premier this piece by having it too publicly available beforehand. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part, but at least for now, I'm going with that. Thank you for asking.


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## hag01 (Mar 1, 2017)

I would never advertise\share materials of another musician\composer without his permission, that is why I asked.


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## Morodiene (Apr 12, 2017)

I've made some changes to the recording per the above suggestions. I also was not happy with my tempo choice, so I was able to fiddle with that without having to redo the choir stuff too much (Flex Time is my new best friend).

I'm hoping to present this on this upcoming Easter Sunday, so we'll see how it's received. I always worry about people who aren't used to hearing this kind of music, but also not used to virtual instruments if they will be able to enjoy it.

Anyways, feedback from you is appreciated as always!


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## novaburst (Apr 12, 2017)

Can only say once the feel and vibe is there it's a home run, job done just sound great.


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## Paul T McGraw (Apr 13, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> I've made some changes to the recording per the above suggestions. I also was not happy with my tempo choice, so I was able to fiddle with that without having to redo the choir stuff too much (Flex Time is my new best friend).
> 
> I'm hoping to present this on this upcoming Easter Sunday, so we'll see how it's received. I always worry about people who aren't used to hearing this kind of music, but also not used to virtual instruments if they will be able to enjoy it.
> 
> Anyways, feedback from you is appreciated as always!




Very, very, very moving! Of course you have an awesome text.  Your samples are letting you down a bit, which I know is not your fault. A real performance with real musicians would be truly wonderful, as the aesthetics of your composition are marvelous. As a fellow believer, I am excited about the prospect of hearing your next compositions.


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## Morodiene (Apr 14, 2017)

Thank you, Paul. It's really cool to be able to get a better idea of how it will actually sound with these vi's. Being stuck in Finale playback land still leaves you wondering if it's worthwhile, but then this is one step closer to reality. And of course, my dream is to have it performed by live musicians. 

My plan is to finish up the final movement and edits on the 2nd movement by early May and then send it off to a conductor who was interested in hearing it - and hopefully he will consider performing it next season. 

I only have 2 movements of the 5 recorded on vi's, the rest will just be Finale playing back - which I'll try to make it sound as good as I can. And I'll provide the full score for all of them. Any advice on what to do when presenting a score to a conductor?


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## Paul T McGraw (Apr 14, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Thank you, Paul. It's really cool to be able to get a better idea of how it will actually sound with these vi's. Being stuck in Finale playback land still leaves you wondering if it's worthwhile, but then this is one step closer to reality. And of course, my dream is to have it performed by live musicians.
> 
> My plan is to finish up the final movement and edits on the 2nd movement by early May and then send it off to a conductor who was interested in hearing it - and hopefully he will consider performing it next season.
> 
> I only have 2 movements of the 5 recorded on vi's, the rest will just be Finale playing back - which I'll try to make it sound as good as I can. And I'll provide the full score for all of them. Any advice on what to do when presenting a score to a conductor?



Conductors are individuals just like the rest of us and have a wide range of skills and motivations. I have known a conductor that could sit at a piano with a full Mahler symphonic score and site read a plausible rendition. I knew a really effective conductor who had not played any instrument in decades and would really need a recording to evaluate a score, yet he had the ability to motivate and lead and get a great performance out of his musicians. So try to think about what this conductor might need to evaluate your score. He or she may not really need a good mockup. And an excellent piano rendition may do more justice to your creation than a poor orchestral mockup. This might be especially true for some who find mockups offensive. If you have a good relationship with this conductor ask them what would be best for them. Do not be afraid to let someone hear a good piano or organ rendition as an alternative to a poor mockup. If John Williams could do it, so can you.

Regarding the printed score - use a reasonable font size, not too tiny. I assume you can only print 8.5 x 11 paper like most of us. If so, consider using Kinkos or similar place to have it enlarged to something like 10 x 13 or similar size and use good quality paper, not bright white (it could glare) and with enough texture (rag content) to make turning pages reliable and easy. Use standard orchestral score order and for transposing instruments (i.e. Bb Clarinet) be sure the score also shows the same transposed notes the player will see in their part. There was a trend in the 1970s and 1980s to use Concert Pitch (non-transposed) scores and I personally like to work in that mode, but I think that trend faded away. If you submit a Concert Pitch score be sure it is very clearly and obviously marked "Concert Pitch".

Be sure to carefully edit your score and your players parts to eliminate errors and make life as easy as possible for your musicians. A well edited and easily read printed part and score will instill your musicians with confidence and earn you a lot of respect from the first reading. If your printed music is sloppy, the musicians just might give you a sloppy performance.

Things to double check: slur marks (for all non-keyboard instruments indicates legato playing not phrasing, usually better than writing "legato" on the score), accidentals (the most typical cause for performance mistakes), include courtesy accidentals, include dynamic markings (hairpins are usually better than writing "cresc" or "descresc"), show a dynamic marking at every entry after a rest, even if the dynamics have not changed (don't make your musicians look back for anything), and think about and plan for page turns (this can be a killer in a performance).

The book "Behind Bars" by Elaine Gould is the definitive guide to printed music standards..

My friend @Rodney Money is a Christian music educator and published composer. He might be willing to give you some help with editing your score. I am also willing to take a look and make suggestions if desired.

Last piece of advice. No matter what the conductor says, even if his is insulting and rejects your work, do not burn any bridges. I let my temper get the better of me many times in my life and I have lived to regret it.


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## Morodiene (Apr 14, 2017)

Great advice, Paul! I was planning on printing out at a print shop on larger paper, but hadn't thought about bright white being too glaring. 

This conductor is an accomplished pianist, so I will ask him what he'd prefer to look at. I was thinking that I'd just give him the full score, and then parts would come later if he decides to even have his orchestra read through it. I'm not even sure a read-through would happen until the fall, but do you think it's best to have parts ready when I submit to him?

I am mentally bracing myself for rejection, of course. I do believe in what I wrote, but since I'm not a known composer, it's very possible that no matter how good it is, he may decide not to perform it simply because it may not draw audiences. But you are right, I should even be prepared for him to insult my work (though I know him to be a very kind person, still, he may say things that I totally disagree with). My mother sings in his choir, and so I really can't afford to get upset with him no matter what he says.


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## hag01 (Apr 14, 2017)

I already listened something like thousand times to the previous version, this new one has improved sound and dynamics by my observation, but the first one was already very good IMO.

By the way, what is the language of the singing?


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## Paul T McGraw (Apr 14, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> Great advice, Paul! I was planning on printing out at a print shop on larger paper, but hadn't thought about bright white being too glaring.
> 
> This conductor is an accomplished pianist, so I will ask him what he'd prefer to look at. I was thinking that I'd just give him the full score, and then parts would come later if he decides to even have his orchestra read through it. I'm not even sure a read-through would happen until the fall, but do you think it's best to have parts ready when I submit to him?
> 
> I am mentally bracing myself for rejection, of course. I do believe in what I wrote, but since I'm not a known composer, it's very possible that no matter how good it is, he may decide not to perform it simply because it may not draw audiences. But you are right, I should even be prepared for him to insult my work (though I know him to be a very kind person, still, he may say things that I totally disagree with). My mother sings in his choir, and so I really can't afford to get upset with him no matter what he says.



Musicians parts are typically regular 8.5 x 11. Back when I was doing compositions and arrangements constantly I used to print them two pages per 11 x 17 sheet, front and back and fold. Makes for a nice neat part. It has been 20 years since I have had a live performance of anything. But I'm sure a nicely done part would still be appreciated.

I would not send them until requested. Just me, but I would go ahead and have them ready while preparing the rest of the piece and everything is fresh in your mind. This conductor is not the only person who might be interested in your work in the future, so why not have them ready?

About 20 years ago in a fit of despair I destroyed every piece of music I had written to that point. Arrangements and orchestrations as well as original compositions.  Now I regret doing it. You sound like a more level headed person than I, but for what it is worth, save everything and save backup files "off site" in the cloud just in case.

Also, based on your description of this conductor, I would send a score and a piano reduction with vocal parts. You would need that for the chorus anyway. You could then send two MP3 versions. One of the piano reduction with organ playing the vocal parts. That might be more effective than a mockup. But also your best mockup in another MP3.


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## Morodiene (Apr 14, 2017)

Hag01 said:


> I already listened something like thousand times to the previous version, this new one has improved sound and dynamics by my observation, but the first one was already very good IMO.
> 
> By the way, what is the language of the singing?


It is in English  and this is where having live singers would help. Although, I would like to have the words either printed in the program or projected on the screen. If projected, I'd like to have artwork done by my brother in law up there as well. We'll see about that...still gotta finish it


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## Morodiene (Apr 14, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> About 20 years ago in a fit of despair I destroyed every piece of music I had written to that point. Arrangements and orchestrations as well as original compositions.  Now I regret doing it. You sound like a more level headed person than I, but for what it is worth, save everything and save backup files "off site" in the cloud just in case.


 Ouch! Well, I'm an opera singer, so I do have a bit of crazy in me 



> Also, based on your description of this conductor, I would send a score and a piano reduction with vocal parts. You would need that for the chorus anyway. You could then send two MP3 versions. One of the piano reduction with organ playing the vocal parts. That might be more effective than a mockup. But also your best mockup in another MP3.


 This is a good idea... I hadn't thought of a piano/vocal score (although I know I'd need one eventually). I know Finale has this as a function, but my guess is there would be a ton of cleaning up to do.


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## hag01 (Apr 14, 2017)

Morodiene said:


> It is in English  and this is where having live singers would help. Although, I would like to have the words either printed in the program or projected on the screen. If projected, I'd like to have artwork done by my brother in law up there as well. We'll see about that...still gotta finish it



Well, english is not my native language, so it's maybe due to my lack of listening comprehension.
As long as a native speaker can recognize what is told in your mockup then I think it good enough.


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## Pianistikboy (Apr 16, 2017)

Bravo for this wonderful composition Morodienne ! It is so well crafted and I hope that you will have it premiered next season. Tell us when there will be a recording of it. I'm curious to listen to it. Kind regards. Anthony


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## Morodiene (Apr 17, 2017)

Thank you, Anthony! I'll be sure to get a decent recording of it if it ever gets performed (Lord willing) and post it here. Happy Easter!


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## Pianistikboy (Apr 17, 2017)

Great Morodienne! I know how much a composer look forward to listening to the premiere of her/his piece. It's such a special and magical moment. Hope you'll be lucky to attend this premiere ! Happy Easter too. Best


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## OleJoergensen (Apr 17, 2017)

Your music is wonderful!
I hope you will succeed in a Live recording.
Please lets us now where to buy when it is released.


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## Morodiene (Apr 17, 2017)

OleJoergensen said:


> Your music is wonderful!
> I hope you will succeed in a Live recording.
> Please lets us now where to buy when it is released.


I definitely will! Thank you for your encouraging words


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