# Cubase struggling with threadripper 3990x 64 cores



## cshin1 (Oct 11, 2021)

Hi there I'm trying to turn threadripper PC into music production computer.
I am hoping to load & play as many midi instrument as possible simultaneously.

For now Cubase is dropping before loading 200 kontakt instances, so I sense there is a problem with setup..
How would I optimize this computer to load & play as many VST instrument as possible?
And can anyone guess & estimate if optimized right, what would be maximum # of VST instruments?
(Let's say I'm loading Berlin Strings Violin)

If anyone can share thoughts on optimization I will definitely share the test results here.
Would really appreciate it.


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## Bernard Duc (Oct 11, 2021)

cshin1 said:


> Hi there I'm trying to turn threadripper PC into music production computer.
> I am hoping to load & play as many midi instrument as possible simultaneously.
> 
> For now Cubase is dropping before loading 200 kontakt instances, so I sense there is a problem with setup..
> ...


Do you run Kontakt on different tracks without any other kind of routing and effects loaded?

Honestly I think that using 64 cores for music production is a pretty bad idea nowadays. You won't make the most out of this architecture.

(warning: heavily simplified explanation): If you have a lot of cores it also mean that each core is slower. The issue with music production is that CPU parallelism (two or more cores working in parallel on the same task) can be very difficult when working with real time audio, and most audio applications are pretty bad at making the most of many cores (even though there are strategies to use more efficiently multi core setups). But with CPUs that have that many cores there are other issues due to the architecture that adds latency.

I know people who do music production very well on 32 core setups (can't remember which CPU, if intel or AMD), but it will depend on the specific CPU and people who do that should structure their sessions in a way that reduces processing bottlenecks. For example you don't want to have many sends to the same track, so rather than using just a couple of reverbs for a big template you might want to use more reverbs with less sends to them. Sure, it will increase the total CPU use, but actually the RT CPU usage (real time CPU, which is usually the problem with audio production), will be lower and therefore you will be able to have heavier projects.

Now, if you happen to already have the threadripper PC, you should still be able to get a very decent audio production PC out of it, but it might not be the best, and certainly not the best value for money.


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## cshin1 (Oct 11, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> en though there are strategies to use more efficiently multi core setups)





Bernard Duc said:


> Do you run Kontakt on different tracks without any other kind of routing and effects loaded?
> 
> Honestly I think that using 64 cores for music production is a pretty bad idea nowadays. You won't make the most out of this architecture.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughts. Yeah.. I already have the PC and I'm trying to make the most out of it... Any idea how to make the most out of it or how to test performance would be appreciated!


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## Bernard Duc (Oct 11, 2021)

How much RAM do you have? Because running 200 separate instances of Kontakt (even empty) will have a pretty big RAM footprint, so the first step is to make sure that this is not the issue.

If you want to optimize the CPU use with Cubase, Vienna Ensemble Pro is probably the way to go (if the workflow suits you).


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## Pictus (Oct 12, 2021)

May help 





Nvidia Driver, no latency anymore?


Hi all! We all know that AMD drivers have from far, less latency than Nvidia drivers, and for that reason we all recommand an AMD graphic card for audio working. But recently i have dealt with a new install on a PC with an Nvidia graphic card. And when i updated to the latest driver i saw an...




vi-control.net


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## colony nofi (Oct 12, 2021)

@Pictus 's link is well useful.

The threadrippers are AMAZING machines.

I would be very surprised if you can't get a great setup going. However, as mentioned by @Bernard Duc you may have to set things up slightly differently to how you are used to working.

Unfortunately, it may also involve a decent amount of testing and iteration. When we first used a HEDT machine for a large project (10940 from memory) it was a fairly steep learning curve to get it performing well. And we were definitely pushing the DSP side of things rather than straight kontakt instances.

Kontakt is unfortunately NOT geared to these types of machines, as much as we would like it to be. Its a bloody brilliant program, but suffers in the performance stakes on a number of fronts due to very old legacy code (lines into the millions) which go back a lot longer than you might expect.

Cubase similarly has a bunch of legacy code. Its interesting talking to devs working on these kinds of multi-year projects in regards to chasing performance etc when they have to work around software architecture planned out 10+ years ago. Thankfully steinberg have guys coding who have a LOT of background knowledge as to why those decisions were made. Massive problems can surface when none of the original staff are around...

When you have this number of cores to play with, as mentioned by Bernard, I'd definitely look at VEP, even if thats not my personal ideal setup. 

I would also create my own set of test cubase sessions. Set things up in different ways and see how that effects performance. We have had to do that for our studios and it was eye opening. Once you get to very large sessions and loads of groups etc, you see some interesting behaviors. We have tested for stereo, 5.1, atmos and large channel count immersive systems using SPAT revolution, and it requires careful (and somewhat different) session layout to eek out the full performance of a system.

I wouldn't personally be chasing low buffers with your system. All the knowledge I have on the TR's would indicate that the zen2 architecture responds much better to being set around 256 and above. Zen3 allows lower buffer settings while maintaining performance - but it is ALWAYS at the cost of fairly high levels of performance. Just adjust your workflow.

Look into how performance changes with different cubase settings for asio guard and kontakt (especially if you are not using VEP. We have completely moved away from VEP, so I'm not sure how it relates anymore. There's many knowledgable folk out there who will help you on that one.)

Your SINGLE core performance will always impact cubase use. Maximising that performance is key to being able to use the rest of the performance of your machine. (Thus, look at buffers, as that is the single most easily changeable thing which directly effects core 0)

Unfortunately, by having an incredible machine like a high level TR, you're running into the problem of it requiring a lot more R&D to get working well. Good luck. There *is* a way thru it. There's a big LA based composer running a couple of the 3970's in his studios to GREAT effect - they're amazing.


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## cshin1 (Oct 12, 2021)

colony nofi said:


> @Pictus 's link is well useful.
> 
> The threadrippers are AMAZING machines.
> 
> ...


Can't thank you enough for your direction. In 3~5 year I suspect many studios will be using TR. I'm trying to use 3990x, do let me know if there is any test you are curious about and I'd be grateful to share any result.


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## cshin1 (Oct 12, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> How much RAM do you have? Because running 200 separate instances of Kontakt (even empty) will have a pretty big RAM footprint, so the first step is to make sure that this is not the issue.
> 
> If you want to optimize the CPU use with Cubase, Vienna Ensemble Pro is probably the way to go (if the workflow suits you).


Thank you for the reply. I'm using 150GB I think I'm running less than others. Hmm.. I was hoping with TR I don't need server computer / Vienna Ensemble Pro but I will look into it. Thank you!


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## colony nofi (Oct 12, 2021)

cshin1 said:


> Thank you for the reply. I'm using 150GB I think I'm running less than others. Hmm.. I was hoping with TR I don't need server computer / Vienna Ensemble Pro but I will look into it. Thank you!


Not meaning server computer VEP setup. We are referring to running kontakt inside VEP on the same computer as cubase. For a bunch of reasons, this can spread load efficiently on a machine.

HOWEVER. When designing tests, be sure to account for the increased buffers when comparing results.
When running VEP, you need to double or triple your cubase buffer to get the "real" buffer. 
So at 128 using VEP, its entirely appropriate (depending on setup) to compare your results to running things inside cubase on their own at a buffer setting of 384. There's tonnes written about this stuff all over the net, but IIRC its also pretty well spelled out in the VEP manuals.


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## cshin1 (Oct 12, 2021)

colony nofi said:


> Not meaning server computer VEP setup. We are referring to running kontakt inside VEP on the same computer as cubase. For a bunch of reasons, this can spread load efficiently on a machine.
> 
> HOWEVER. When designing tests, be sure to account for the increased buffers when comparing results.
> When running VEP, you need to double or triple your cubase buffer to get the "real" buffer.
> So at 128 using VEP, its entirely appropriate (depending on setup) to compare your results to running things inside cubase on their own at a buffer setting of 384. There's tonnes written about this stuff all over the net, but IIRC its also pretty well spelled out in the VEP manuals.


Thank you so much will keep this in mind!


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## cedricm (Oct 12, 2021)

Yes, not a VEP specialist, but if I understand correctly, one of its advantages is that it schedules cores better than most DAWs.
Pretty sure you can download a demo and there are videos on YouTube explaining how to set it up on the same computer as the DAW.

But first, did you use all the usual tricks in Cubase, such as deactivated tracks and/or purged Kontakt instances?

I know even on Studio One Pro, less appropriate today for a gazillion tracks, I have about 500 in one of my templates, mostly Kontakt, Play, Sine, Synchron and Spitfire.

But I don't know if even pros come anywhere to 200 Kontakt instances playing at the same time in real projects. Assuming you're using 16 instruments or techniques per Kontakt instance, that's a mighty number of concurrent plays.

Also this is probably required reading and you may want to email Anandtech to check if there are still issues today:








The 64 Core Threadripper 3990X CPU Review: In The Midst Of Chaos, AMD Seeks Opportunity







www.anandtech.com





Pretty sure I read people finding tricks such as deactivating numa in the bios.


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## OT_Tobias (Oct 13, 2021)

Cubase's audio engine is currently pretty bad with TR CPUs (the 3970 and 3990), Steinberg is working on that (I think they even have a Helpdesk article about it).
Currently what you can do is switch off SMT in the EFI and set ASIO Guard to High, as that will make it work at least on the level of comparable Intel chips.
Also VE Pro really is a godsend 

Source: my own 3970


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## Loerpert (Oct 13, 2021)

Bernard Duc said:


> How much RAM do you have? Because running 200 separate instances of Kontakt (even empty) will have a pretty big RAM footprint, so the first step is to make sure that this is not the issue.
> 
> If you want to optimize the CPU use with Cubase, Vienna Ensemble Pro is probably the way to go (if the workflow suits you).



VEP. Or AudioGridder.


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## colony nofi (Oct 14, 2021)

OT_Tobias said:


> Cubase's audio engine is currently pretty bad with TR CPUs (the 3970 and 3990), Steinberg is working on that (I think they even have a Helpdesk article about it).
> Currently what you can do is switch off SMT in the EFI and set ASIO Guard to High, as that will make it work at least on the level of comparable Intel chips.
> Also VE Pro really is a godsend
> 
> Source: my own 3970


Hey Tobias, who are you talking with @ Steinberg? And do you have a link to the helpdesk article on it - I couldn't find it.


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## Freudon33 (Oct 14, 2021)

Hello
I have a 5950x with 128 gigabytes of ram
I know that the speed of the ram can strongly influence the performance
speeds of 3600mhz see 3733mhz are the most recommended
see memory and infinity fabric

Infinity Fabric AMD

I use trident z neo 3600mhz memory

I have VEP6 but I don't use VEP
everything happens in cubase 11 pro with
all my tracks disabled.
which seems to me much more practical
Cubase is at version 11.0.40 and is well optimized


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## iMovieShout (Oct 14, 2021)

cedricm said:


> Yes, not a VEP specialist, but if I understand correctly, one of its advantages is that it schedules cores better than most DAWs.
> Pretty sure you can download a demo and there are videos on YouTube explaining how to set it up on the same computer as the DAW.
> 
> But first, did you use all the usual tricks in Cubase, such as deactivated tracks and/or purged Kontakt instances?
> ...


I can vouch for the use of VEP7. My studio PC has 64 threads (32 cores) with the CPUs (dual CPU) running at 3.06GHz (and 256gb DDR4 ram), and using more than 14 Kontakt v6 instances causes all sorts of issues, including audio drop out. However, offloading all Kontakt instruments to a VEP7 server running on the same machine, solves this issue, and in fact I have around 110 Kontakt instruments loaded on VEP7 (as wel as Omnisphere, UJAM, etc) and no issues with CPU loading etc. 
VEP7 (Vienna Ensemble Pro 7) is the solution to your problems - or at least a big part of the solution.

Additionally, I actually have another x11 VEP7 servers running remotely as well on Windows Dell servers (but that's not really related to this conversation).


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## Freudon33 (Oct 14, 2021)

> For now Cubase is dropping before loading 200 kontakt instances, so I sense there is a problem with setup..



Little question
200 kontakt instances with multiples(expressions maps)
or single articulation per instance
And fully charged or the samples unloaded
that already makes a huge difference
and 200 instances of kontakt it's already enormous


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## Manaberry (Oct 14, 2021)

cshin1 said:


> In 3~5 year I suspect many studios will be using TR.


Big bet here. If bugs and issues are solved until then, along with some optimization on the software side, maybe!


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## OT_Tobias (Oct 14, 2021)

colony nofi said:


> Hey Tobias, who are you talking with @ Steinberg? And do you have a link to the helpdesk article on it - I couldn't find it.











Performance issues with AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3970X and 3990X


Problem We have received reports of performance issues with the AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3970X and 3990X processors featuring 32/64 cores (64/128 threads). The system behaves as if Cubase/Nuendo is p...




helpcenter.steinberg.de





The customer referred to in the article is me. I hope they will address the issue in an upcoming version of Cubase, hopefully.


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