# Cubase / Digital Performer opinions



## ceemusic (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm considering either Cubase 7 or Digital Performer 8 as an alternative DAW for all my projects including orchestral & symphonic.
Any recommendations, pros/ cons?
I'm using Sonar X2, which would be similar in use or easier in terms of transition?

thanks


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## Daryl (Feb 6, 2013)

Has DP been released for Windows?

D


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## mark812 (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't think that there's something more subjective in audio world than DAW choice. Maybe reverb.  

It really depends on your workflow. Both are very capable DAWs. DP has the most comprehensive scoring features, but Cubase's MIDI features are more advanced imo. Each one has its strengths and weaknesses and you should decide what suits your needs best. Cubase has demo and you can try it, while DP doesn't afaik. 

Also, Daryl has a good point. I'm not sure that DP was even released for Windows, but even if it was, I'd rather pick a program that has been around for Windows for 20 years than one which is completely new.


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## cadalac (Feb 6, 2013)

I just did a search and DP's latest release supports windows. I also thought it was mac only.

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/digital-performer-does-windows (http://www.motu.com/newsitems/digital-p ... es-windows)


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## Brian Ralston (Feb 6, 2013)

As a DP user myself (on a MAC)...I will sing its praises for film scoring till the cows come home. But...from what was told to me...DP on Windows...while awesome to see it finally there...it is running solidly on some pacific stock HP and Dell computer configurations....but not so much on random PC configurations that most folks have. So if you pieced together your PC on your own...DP may not be as solid on it. (That will get fixed in my opinion. MOTU always does get it right in the end like they have on MAC). Catering to us composer and film score folks is ALL they pretty much do. 

If you bought a stock HP or Dell machine...it will probably run very solid. 

I would call or email MOTU and ask about your machine and what their thoughts are on your running DP on your specific configuration.


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## kgdrum (Feb 6, 2013)

the Windows release from what I've been told directly from people at MOTU is very very close.
I was told the next DP update will coincide with the Windows release.
They were hoping to have in time for NAMM but I guess they have a few more kinks to iron out.
DP8.01 64bit for Mac is already awesome! 
I guess they have a few minor tweaks and fixes they need to address but I expect DP8.02 or DP8.1 whatever they're going to call it will be a HOME RUN right out of the gate.
MOTU is aware how important 1st impressions will be for the 1st Windows release so they are trying to make sure its amazing from the get go. 

=o


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## ceemusic (Feb 6, 2013)

Thanks for the replies.
I sure wish DP had a demo, I hate plunking down that much money blindly. 
Interesting comments about it running smoothly on stock HP & Dell.
Willing to wait & see how it progresses, hope others post any other comments in the meantime.
Going to demo Cubase 6 & see how that goes. 
After using Sonar as my only DAW & for so long I hope I have patience with new learning curves.


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## rgames (Feb 6, 2013)

Does DP have the equivalent of Expression Maps? If not, that's a huge difference if you write orchestral music.

There are two things that have really improved my workflow over the last 5 years: SSD's and Expression Maps.

rgames


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## Jimbo 88 (Feb 6, 2013)

rgames @ Wed Feb 06 said:


> Does DP have the equivalent of Expression Maps? If not, that's a huge difference if you write orchestral music.
> 
> There are two things that have really improved my workflow over the last 5 years: SSD's and Expression Maps.
> 
> rgames




What are expression maps? how dp they work?

Thanks!


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## rgames (Feb 6, 2013)

Jimbo 88 @ Wed Feb 06 said:


> rgames @ Wed Feb 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Does DP have the equivalent of Expression Maps? If not, that's a huge difference if you write orchestral music.
> ...


Expression maps are the easiest way to combine a whole bunch of articulations on a single track, so you can read the MIDI data or score just like you would a regular score - one line per part. It makes full orchestrations compact and easy to read.

First you define which articulations / playing styles go with which MIDI keyswitches / channels / controllers / whatever. Then, in the MIDI editor, there's a lane below the piano roll that shows legato, staccato, pizz, col legno, whatever and you assign which one is active just like you would assign a value to a MIDI controller. Only you don't have to think about the MIDI - you think about the playing style and the expression map takes care of the rest for you.

It's also linked to the score editor - you can assign symbols / markings to expressions and they show up as appropriate in the score editor.

If you don't write for virtual orchestral or use only a few articulations then I don't know if they're useful. But I haven't seen anything that gets you closer to a compact traditional score than expression maps.

rgames


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## ceemusic (Feb 6, 2013)

Thanks for that explanation, having never used Cubase I never heard of or knew anything about them. 
I also just watched an expression map video & can see how useful it could be.


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## dcoscina (Feb 6, 2013)

I use both Cubase 7 and DP8. Both have had minor rev. since their releases. 

I'm more at home with DP because I've worked on a few film projects with it and it makes sense to me in terms of general navigation. If you are at all familiar with Pro Tools GUI, you will feel at home with DP. I prefer its mixer to Cubase's though I think Cubase 7 is a LOT better than 6.5. 

Cubase is more stable on my Mac. I just upgraded to a used Mac Pro 2.8ghz 8 core with 15 gb RAM. DP8 crashed on Snow Leopard a lot so I moved up to Mountain Lion and thought it would simmer down. Not so much. Granted most of my troubles occured when I was using my RME Babyface which I didn't experience while using the MOTU 2408Ml3. Pity the MOTU doesn't sound as good as the RME...

Yes, DP doesn't have Expression Maps. Personally, and this is just me, I separate my heavy orchestral writing with DAWs. For notation, I use Sibelius and even find DP's QuickScribe to be quite good for general notation editing. Cubase 7 has got a beefy score section (probably will get beefier with the former Sibelius team working for Steinberg now) and the Expression maps. If you don't like key switching or program changes for arts, the expression map can save a lot of time. It's also easier for clean up when transferring your MIDI score to a notation app like Finale or Sibelius as you don't have loads of tracks of the same instrument for changing articulations.


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## Daryl (Feb 7, 2013)

So DP for Windows doesn't exist (yet) so currently there is no choice to make. As it was supposed to be released a year ago, I would be very careful about making any plans that include it. You could be in for a huge disappointment.

In any case, I would advise the following. Make a list of what Sonar doesn't do that you're not happy with, and then:

1) Check out the demo of Cubase. Specifically look for the "missing" features.
2) Check the performance out. It is no good changing to a new sequencer only to find out that you can't run anything like the number of instruments you normally do on it. This shouldn't be a problem, but it is worth checking.
3) Talk to other people who have swapped from Sonar (I think that Guy Rowland was one of the more vocal). Find out what their reasons for swapping were, and what the advantages and disadvantages were.
4) Check for features such as VST3, VST Expression, Logical Editor etc. and all the other advanced VST features that a modern DAW should have.

Once you have done all this, then start to ask annoying questions. There are enough advanced users around here that you should be able to get a useful answer that may well enable you to make an informed decision.

D


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## Brian Ralston (Feb 7, 2013)

If you do go with DP, make sure you get the competitive upgrade pricing which is almost half off. Any other DAW you own qualifies you for that lower price. Most folks dont even know that is a possibility.


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## ceemusic (Feb 7, 2013)

Brian Ralston @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> If you do go with DP, make sure you get the competitive upgrade pricing which is almost half off. Any other DAW you own qualifies you for that lower price. Most folks dont even know that is a possibility.



Excellent, thanks for the tip.
I never knew that either.


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## wcreed51 (Feb 7, 2013)

I don't think Cubase currently has a demo available.


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## ceemusic (Feb 7, 2013)

wcreed51 @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> I don't think Cubase currently has a demo available.


I dl'd Cubase 6.5 demo yesterday. Full 30 day, uses eLicenser.


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## Jimbo 88 (Feb 7, 2013)

Hey Ceemusic,

Let us(me) know how you like Cubase. I'm in the same boat you are.


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## IFM (Feb 8, 2013)

My flirtation with Cubase may be over and likely will sell it. Let me know if you are interested. 
Chris


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## cc64 (Feb 8, 2013)

Hi ceemusic,

choosing a DAW can be indeed quite difficult. Once you learn one really well it's pretty tough to let go and try something else. Especially when you get super busy and have a big template/workflow. 

One important factor in choosing is if you work/collaborate with other people, what do they use?

Also i would get a year pass at groove3.com or something like that and check out both the tutorials and see what speaks to you the most. I'm on DP and i love it. On the other hand if i where to change DAW today i'm pretty sure i'd have a go at Cubase 7.

Good luck!

BTW the 99$ dollar all access year pass @ groove3 has been a real no-brainer for me.

Claude


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## ceemusic (Feb 8, 2013)

@Claude

Thanks, yes along with the Cubase demo I received a free months full access of Groove3 from Cakewalk that I'm using to check out DP as well.


@Chris
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

I still keep falling into my Sonar state of mind so it will take a month to unlearn / relearn.


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## Antilope (Feb 11, 2013)

Time go by and im more and more in love with cubase, its so simple and yet so powerful.


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## cadalac (Feb 11, 2013)

Well I bought Cubase 7 a couple days ago, and I must say I love it. It's exceeding my expectations. (I'm using it on a new Dell desktop with Windows 8.)

Here in Canada most major cities have a Cubase user group meeting once a month. (luckily for me I discovered our group was having a meeting the same week I was planning to get Cubase, and of course they were spending the meeting going over the new features of Cubase 7.)

It seems Steinberg and Yamaha are in some partnership now, so some new plug-ins and sounds from the Yamaha world are now included in Cubase. Most of the new features shown in the presentation were 'time saver' stuff. Also their control room meter was improved to show more info.

It's a fairly complex program though, and it takes a while to get to know how to use it.

For those thinking to upgrade, I'd say if looking to speed up production in your DAW, if would be worth your time looking into the new features to decide if you want to buy it.


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## LFO (Feb 11, 2013)

I am a Cubase user, but DP looked so good that I had to try it. (I was a Mac user at the time, but no longer.) This was DP 7. The program is great, no doubt about it, but I just could not get my head fully wrapped around the way it works. Everything from using the mouse to workflow just not click with me. That's not DP's fault, it just wasn't a match. Cubase, on the other hand is natural and the workflow fits just fine.

My point is, if you can get in front of both programs and use them a bit you will find out which works best for you. Both are solid DAWs so you really can't lose when it comes to choosing one or the other. Just find what fits you best! Best of luck.


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## dcoscina (Feb 11, 2013)

LFO, nice post. I prefer DP myself but recognize that Cubase has some really amazing features but like you it's just a preference and I'm faster at DP. At this stage of most DAW development, any one of the big ones is a considerable compositional/production tool.


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 12, 2013)

As a DP user and having dabbled in Logic, Cubase and PT, I think that DP is fantastic, if only a little intimidating for the new user. However, it's incredibly deep and even after years of intense use I still discover new things that dramatically change my workflow, every few months. If you decided to invest in DP, you definitely won't be disappointed. The main selling points of DP, for me personally are the ease in working separate cues/ versions with the chunks functionality and the template / signal routing functions which are so plainly laid out they can make even a gigantic template very easy to understand. And DP8 is a nice upgrade to 7, 64-bit and very stable here in my ML mac mini.


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## dcoscina (Feb 12, 2013)

I agree. I booted up Cubase 7 this morning to play around with Spitfire Sable and quit then opened DP. Yes, it's really only because I'm so familiar with the short cuts but man I can fly with it. And its rhythmic transcription for Quickscribe still is the best I've seen of any DAW. You cannot print off finished parts from it but then again, I don't from any DAW so it suits my needs. My only wish is for MOTU to allow bigger zooming in of the GUI. I still find it a wee bit smallish even on my 27" LED monitor. 

Killer program though. I also love the chunks and V rack. It definitely makes things easier when working on multiple cues. Routing initially was weird for me but no problem now. I did a lot of mixing for a radio show fanfare I composed last week using a lot of busses for various Kontakt outs and it worked like a champ (not that other DAWs cannot do this- in fact I still find Logic the simplest to use for busses on multiple output VIs).


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## synergy543 (Feb 12, 2013)

DP users here as well. Although with the entire Sibelius team now over at Steinberg, Cubase is bound to become an even stronger contender. Unless they build their notation program as a standalone app. Though it surely would be more powerful integrated with a DAW.


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## Brian Ralston (Feb 12, 2013)

MOTU is starting to put up their NAMM videos. An effort they have not done well with in the past...PROMOTION. But they are beginning a new trend to truly get the word out about what DP can do lot more than they have in the past. 

http://www.motu.com/newsitems/motu-at-namm-2013



A lot more videos to come in the coming days.

Their entire DP8 walkthrough is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aKE01KQwl4&feature=share&list=UU8hyTW7MjLR6_G4nz2jZaAg

Also, the James Sizemore presentation of scoring the Hobbit with DP is coming soon to that page above.


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## jaeroe (Feb 12, 2013)

DP8 works a lot better on newer machines and os 10.8. If you do stuff to picture, DP8 is really geared more toward QuickTime X and newer gear. Runs great on a my Mac Book pro 2012, but terribly on my Mac Pro 8 core. Have to use an ext video system and even then it is a bit wonky.

I like a lot of things about DP, but it is not the most efficient program in it's programming. I host my VI's outside DP. It's much more stable and faster that way.


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## Ryan Scully (Feb 12, 2013)

Is it true DP8 supports VST3? If so, does it overcome the shared Logic curse of one MIDI port in VE Pro 5? Would be curious to know!



Ryan


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 12, 2013)

Ryan, I think there' s a bit of confusion with your statement. Logic doesn't support VST3, only AU. And DP never had a problem with Event Input plug-ins, as Logic does, with dropped notes and MIDI events. The only bug with VE Pro 5 was latency not being properly compensated in DP 7.24, but that was fixed in DP8, now everything runs absolutely smoothly. And fyi, if you have the VST3 version of VE Pro 5, you wouldn't even need the Event Input plug-ins, due to the multi-port nature of the VST3 format. The limitation was never DAW-related, but rather, inherent of the AU plug-in format.

Another annoying bug that DP8 does not have is the Logic uni-core effects processing bug, in my system, it spreads the load evenly amongst all 4 processors.

EDIT: Unfortunately DP does not support VST3, but only AU and VST2.


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## Ryan Scully (Feb 12, 2013)

antoniopandrade @ Tue Feb 12 said:


> Ryan, I think there' s a bit of confusion with your statement. Logic doesn't support VST3, only AU. And DP never had a problem with Event Input plug-ins, as Logic does, with dropped notes and MIDI events. The only bug with VE Pro 5 was latency not being properly compensated in DP 7.24, but that was fixed in DP8, now everything runs absolutely smoothly. And fyi, if you have the VST3 version of VE Pro 5, you wouldn't even need the Event Input plug-ins, due to the multi-port nature of the VST3 format. The limitation was never DAW-related, but rather, inherent of the AU plug-in format.
> 
> Another annoying bug that DP8 does not have is the Logic uni-core effects processing bug, in my system, it spreads the load evenly amongst all 4 processors.
> 
> EDIT: Unfortunately DP does not support VST3, but only AU and VST2.




Hi Antonio,


Thanks for the response and yes I am aware that Logic does not support VST. This was one of the reasons I migrated away from Logic recently as utilizing Event Inputs in Ve Pro 5 were just really counter intuitive and in-efficient for me. I noticed that DP8 showed support for VST and was curious as to whether or not it supported the VST3 protocol which is just awesome for use in VE Pro 5. I'm currently using Studio One which does support VST3 and it's rock solid in VE Pro 5 on my 6 Core Mac Pro. It just still has some ground to cover in MIDI and video sync IMO - which is why I'm still looking at other DAWs for certain situations. I had tried the Cubase 6.5 demo a few months back on my machine running OSX 10.8.2 but had some serious compatibility issues with VE Pro 5(for some reason?). Not sure if it's since been ironed out in Cubase 7 which is why my interest was piqued in DP8.


Ryan :D


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## Brian Ralston (Feb 12, 2013)

DP8 supports VST2 now........VST3 in the future "most likely." VST3 is such a new standard that solid VST2 support was more important first.


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## utopia (Feb 12, 2013)

prscully20 @ Tue Feb 12 said:


> Hi Antonio,
> 
> 
> Thanks for the response and yes I am aware that Logic does not support VST. This was one of the reasons I migrated away from Logic recently as utilizing Event Inputs in Ve Pro 5 were just really counter intuitive and in-efficient for me. I noticed that DP8 showed support for VST and was curious as to whether or not it supported the VST3 protocol which is just awesome for use in VE Pro 5. I'm currently using Studio One which does support VST3 and it's rock solid in VE Pro 5 on my 6 Core Mac Pro. It just still has some ground to cover in MIDI and video sync IMO - which is why I'm still looking at other DAWs for certain situations. I had tried the Cubase 6.5 demo a few months back on my machine running OSX 10.8.2 but had some serious compatibility issues with VE Pro 5(for some reason?). Not sure if it's since been ironed out in Cubase 7 which is why my interest was piqued in DP8.
> ...


Strange..I've been running vepro5 on my Mac mini Cubase 6.5 with zero problems here..Recently upgraded to Cubase 7 and it works just as well.


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## Ryan Scully (Feb 13, 2013)

utopia @ Wed Feb 13 said:


> prscully20 @ Tue Feb 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Antonio,
> ...





Strange indeed - The only thing that I did not think of that may have caused an issue was running the e-license for both VE Pro 5 and Cubase trial from the same Vienna Key..



Ryan


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## antoniopandrade (Feb 13, 2013)

Ryan,

Indeed running your template in VST3 would eliminate the extra latency buffers created by the Event Plug-ins, that would be fantastic indeed. But in DP8 I have a couple of VEP instances running them without any issues. 

Plus, if you're looking for video sync, I think DP would be a great option to Cubase, as it has probably the best tempo functions of any DAW I know.


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## wcreed51 (Feb 13, 2013)

Is Steinberg offering competitive upgrade these days?


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## Ryan Scully (Feb 13, 2013)

antoniopandrade @ Wed Feb 13 said:


> Ryan,
> 
> Indeed running your template in VST3 would eliminate the extra latency buffers created by the Event Plug-ins, that would be fantastic indeed. But in DP8 I have a couple of VEP instances running them without any issues.
> 
> Plus, if you're looking for video sync, I think DP would be a great option to Cubase, as it has probably the best tempo functions of any DAW I know.



Thanks for the info Antonio - I will definitely keep an eye out for it!


Ryan


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## DaddyO (Feb 15, 2013)

Dragonwind @ Fri Feb 08 said:


> My flirtation with Cubase may be over and likely will sell it. Let me know if you are interested.
> Chris



Chris,

I sent you a PM re your Cubase license.


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## ceemusic (Jul 27, 2013)

It's been a while, I ended up going with Cubase. Both are great programs but CB worked a bit better at fitting my needs overall.
A bit of a learning curve but I'm so glad I decided to make the switch.

I'm no longer using Sonar at all, really can't imagine doing anymore projects with it unless Cakewalk totally overhauls their X series.

Thanks for the help & your replies.


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