# Recording strings on budget to add some extra life to samples?



## tslesicki (Feb 14, 2011)

Ok, so I have some string arrangements I've mocked up with Cinematic Strings. Now I'd like to record and overdub some live musicians (namely a violin and a cello) to add some extra life and realism to the sampled tracks. But here's the thing:

These strings are a part of a bigger project I've been working on for quite some time now. The tracks are based mainly on vocals, with all the other instruments (piano, timpani, percussion, strings, etc.) being sampled. The problem is, I've spent most of the budget on recording the vocals in a high-end studio and they sound fab, but I can't really afford doing it for strings.

The best acoustic space I have an access to is a lining room of one of the musicians. The same goes for the microphones - I can only have a Zoom H4n and a Shure SM57 for the session. Home-recording-style, I know :D

So, the question is: do you think it's actually worth recording these strings or is it a total waste of time? The musicians are great but there's really no other option for the session equipment-wise.

What do you guys think about it?

Kind regards,

Tom


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## Blackster (Feb 14, 2011)

I'm not an expert of strings neither of string recordings but here is what I would do: Yes, do the recording. Don't expect the recording to sound great by itself but that is not your goal anyway. When layered with sampled strings it should bring out some nuances and details the samples don't provide so it should enrich the overall result. 

And just in case the recording is really bad you didn't lose much, do you?


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## Ashermusic (Feb 14, 2011)

I think recording real musicians in a crummy sounding room with not so hotsy-totsy gear will add as much bad as good perhaps, but if you can do it cheaply it might be worth a go, if for no other reason than as a learning experience.


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## José Herring (Feb 14, 2011)

Try to rent a Nueman mic or other quality large condenser microphone. Get rather close to the instrument so the room isn't as much of a factor. Then use a room builder type reverb to emulate a good sounding room. Believe it or not if you have Cubase, roomworks reverb is quite handy for this. Then you'll have to EQ and blend in with the samples. You can also do a few over dubs and mix in the overdubs too. If you take the time to do it right it can be quite effective. Just don't expect that it's going to work without a great deal of effort.

best,

Jose


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## Ashermusic (Feb 14, 2011)

wst3 @ Mon Feb 14 said:


> stonzthro @ Mon Feb 14 said:
> 
> 
> > You can make this work.
> ...



I am going to respectfully disagree. With a small section, be very careful with the tuning.


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## tslesicki (Feb 14, 2011)

Thank you very much for the suggestions! I guess it's not a waste of time after all.

I'm afraid I won't be able to rent any additional gear, though. I know that it would provide a vast improvement on the recording quality but it's outside of my budget.

I will in fact record to click and the players will have the headphones with the arrangement playing. Also, I was originally planning to record them one at a time as I think it would provide me a little bit more fidelity with the limited number of microphones I have.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 14, 2011)

tslesicki @ Mon Feb 14 said:


> Also, I was originally planning to record them one at a time as I think it would provide me a little bit more fidelity with the limited number of microphones I have.



Not a good idea IMHO. Have them play together. Musicians play differently as part of an ensemble, even a small one, than when they are solo.


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## tslesicki (Feb 14, 2011)

Thank you for a suggestion. I'm aware of that, however, I don't think I have enough gear to mic them decently in that kind of situation :(


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## bsound76 (Feb 14, 2011)

I think your Zoom would do a surprisingly decent job of capturing the ensemble.

Edit: I mean using its built-in mics.


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## tslesicki (Feb 14, 2011)

bsound76 @ Mon Feb 14 said:


> I think your Zoom would do a surprisingly decent job of capturing the ensemble.
> 
> Edit: I mean using its built-in mics.



That's great to hear! Any tips on the placement?


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## stonzthro (Feb 14, 2011)

What is your string breakdown? I always suggest more top end when using a small group. Maybe it's the way I write, but I'd rather have 5 violins than 3 violins, 1 viola and 1 cello. Waaay more milage for your time/money!

Always do remember the a3 rule - any less than 3 on upper parts and you'll have tuning issues galore. Ans as Jay said - record as a section.


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## autopilot (Feb 14, 2011)

Go for it. 

As everyone has said - make sure you do record as a section - don't do the solo overdub thing - too hard and no fun for anyone. You need at least three players per section. Violins will make the most difference to your recording (and you can do v ii as well) unless you have solos. 

As far as mics go, try the 57 nearby as a spot, and get the zoom on a stand a bit further back and up, but not too close to walls or roof. You want to get distance rather than room, and the walls (and roof) will reflect if you're too close . 

But you will all have fun, and it will improve your mockup 

And (more to the point) you will learn a heap about recording, mixing, conducting, working with players, orchestration and programming. 

Go for it.


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## tslesicki (Feb 14, 2011)

Great, thanks so much for the suggestions! I think I'll record them as a session. But. What about the mic placement then? I know that I can use a SM57 as a spot mic and the Zoom for a more ambient sound but I guess I'll be running short on spots if I'm about to record more than one player at the same time! :(


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## bsound76 (Feb 14, 2011)

tslesicki @ Mon Feb 14 said:


> bsound76 @ Mon Feb 14 said:
> 
> 
> > I think your Zoom would do a surprisingly decent job of capturing the ensemble.
> ...



No experience here with micing a string section, but from using the Zoom I know that the mics are pretty good, and have good imaging. It'll be fine if you put the Zoom in a good place.


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## Moustache (Feb 14, 2011)

josejherring @ Mon Feb 14 said:


> Try to rent a Nueman mic or other quality large condenser microphone.



I have to respectfully disagree as they say. In less-than-optimal recording spaces Neumans and the like are the microphones you don´t want to record with. LDC microphones are ultra-sensitive and will pick up much of the reflections in the room, and you get a lot of room information on your tracks. This will make it really difficult for you to make them blend with Cinematic Strings in the mix. If you have room information on your tracks, it is nearly impossible to get rid of it - and if you do, the cure is more often than not worse than the disease. The ideal microphone in this application would be a microphone with a really tight pick-up pattern in order to eliminate as much of the room as possible. According to my own taste, I would use a ribbon mic. Preferably a Beyer M160, because I have had really good experiences with that on the violin.

If renting/borrowing a microphone is not an option, I would rely on your 57. Your main concern in addition to getting a good tone "on tape" should be keeping the room out. The 57 is a cardioid microphone capturing sound waves in a cardioid pattern, that means you should make sure that there are few reflective surfaces in the direction the microphone is pointing. You can use duvets etc. in order to absorb some of the sound waves. What you could use your Zoom for, is to get really tight to the instrument in order to get more of the high-frequencies that will be lost due to using the 57 as the main microphone (which is a dynamic microphone, and has lower frequency response in the high frequencies.) Then feather in the Zoom in the mix for getting a little more detailed sound.

As always, there is so much to say. In the end, you have to rely on your ears.


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## autopilot (Feb 14, 2011)

Lots of good advice here - 

Moustache has a good point with using the 57 for room (and both would work) and the more I read it the more I agree with him. 

That said - the stereo field of the Zoom, and condensor nature of the zoom would be why I would put it further back. But six of one ... as they say. 

You could try both and see what goes best - it's not like you're on the clock is it? (ANd let us know too !) 

I agree on not worrying with the Neumann - better for a gorgeous room  Plus the sm57 has to be the most under-rated mic. I love 'em. 

Good idea to stick some mattresses and doonas around the players, and window curtains etc etc 

And you only need the one spot mic near player one. You use it to add a bit of grit and bow, with hopefully a smoother sound coming from the zoom further back. Or if the other sound gets too roomy etc etc.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 14, 2011)

I do this sort of thing 24/7, eat it for breakfirst, dinner, lunch and at night, sweat it out though all pores, and always working on the process (instruments, room, mics, mixing, everything). There is a huge list of things to consider but because of trade secrets I can not go into the details. Just saying, the list is huge.

Nevertheless all the best for your recordings, and I am sure it will be great fun. You are doing the right thing!


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## José Herring (Feb 14, 2011)

Moustache @ Mon Feb 14 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Feb 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Try to rent a Nueman mic or other quality large condenser microphone.
> ...



You make good points. The idea of having a small condenser or ribbon mic makes a lot of sense to me. 

As far as LCD mic I just like the sound of it better. If the source is close enough to the mic then the reflections seem to me to not matter much. As the source sound is so much louder than the ambient sound that the ambient sounds become not noticeable. Of course as soon as you stop playing that's a different story and I've often had to edit the audio file to cut out the "silent" parts of a line.


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## tslesicki (Feb 15, 2011)

Thank you very much for the feedback, I really appreciate it! I'll post the recordings once they're done but it's gonna take some time as they are planned for early March


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## tslesicki (Feb 15, 2011)

Ok, one more question. Would a SM58 or SM57 work better for the session?


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## Moustache (Feb 15, 2011)

tslesicki @ Tue Feb 15 said:


> Ok, one more question. Would a SM58 or SM57 work better for the session?


That should be your least concern. 

57 and 58 are basically the same microphone. The 58 is designed for vocals and have a more solid pop filter design, and that´s why the 58 have a slightly lower freqency response in the presence range (around 8kHz). It´s just around 1dB, so nothing to worry about. Another factor is that the capsule on the 57 is closer to the grille than the 58, which makes it easier to having fun with the microphones proximity effect. Not relevant in this application.

In your case, there are no make or break factors in chosing between those two.


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## poseur (Feb 15, 2011)

hmmm.

this is great idea, a great intention.
i agree that you will likely have some fun, proceeding with this.
it will be a valuable experience, regardless of the results.

there's something odd, here, though, which makes me uncomfortable:
so many pieces of equipment have been mentioned,
all kinds of semi-technical issues discussed,
pointed mention by the OP of his financial issues,
buuuuuuuuuuut.....

no mention of the musicians being "_employed_"?
their qualities, their recording experience, their compensation/costs, etc?
¿nada, nothing, zero, zip, zilch?
strange.....

dt


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## stevenson-again (Feb 15, 2011)

i've done heaps of these sorts of sessions i call sweetening - just bunging players in my front room. it really is amazing what you can get away with.

in my experience:

- if you are sweetening, don't worry too much about the room leaking in. at the level the recording is played against the mix it isn't an issue.
- don't make the mistake of mic'ing too close. the dynamic and frequency response changes the closer you get to an instrument (and a mic) and you'll endlessly fiddling trying to get the recording to sit.
- you want to aim for a little bit of air between the mic and the instrument. that way you get the most 'natural' response.
- make sure you can provide a decent click otherwise the musos will get frustrated. make sure your click has the top end rolled off otherwise you will get bleed from the headphones in the mic. ideally your headphones should be closed type.
- you will need to make sure that you can adjust the click level against the mix. the players need the mix to tune and 'vibe' to, but they will be concentrating on the click.
- get as much seperation between the players as possible or record them singly. jay makes a good point about musos playing together, but this is perhaps not the sort of context where that is so important. more important that one player doesn't muck up the players good take.

- when mixing, you'll spend most of your time ironing out dynamic differences in the performances. the dynamic response is logarithmic over distance and you will likely have mixed to a narrow dynamic band.
- you may find rolling off the bottom end of the recordings quite a bit. make sure they are staged correctly. you need to pan them into position, put the quite a way back with reverb and subtley float them in against the mix. you'll be surprised at what a low level they have an impact.

good luck with it. it's quite a rewarding way to get a little extra juice out of you music.


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## Ashermusic (Feb 15, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Tue Feb 15 said:


> more important that one player doesn't muck up the players good take.



If one player "mucks up the good take" and you cannot quickly get another good take, you hired the wrong players.


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## tslesicki (Feb 15, 2011)

poseur @ Tue Feb 15 said:


> hmmm.
> 
> this is great idea, a great intention.
> i agree that you will likely have some fun, proceeding with this.
> ...


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## Ashermusic (Feb 15, 2011)

stevenson-again @ Tue Feb 15 said:


> > If one player "mucks up the good take" and you cannot quickly get another good take, you hired the wrong players
> 
> 
> 
> ah but you never notice it until they've gone.....



LOL!


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## sinkd (Feb 15, 2011)

Do you have two dynamic mics?

I would suggest everything that noisebuyuk said. everything.

Use the Zoom to get a good stereo image of everyone at once (which will minimize any accumulated noise from the less than ideal recording space) plus one of the mics over and behind the first violin, and the other dynamic closer to upper front of the (first) 'cello. The zoom will record 4 tracks, so you might have a bit of flexibility to bring out important lines with those individual mics.

I think that you could get some really good results, provided that the room noise is not crazy. Good luck, and I would LOVE to hear the mixed results. I am a teacher and this is just the kind of wacko/brilliant thing that my best students try to do from time to time.

DS


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## José Herring (Feb 15, 2011)

poseur @ Tue Feb 15 said:


> no mention of the musicians being "_employed_"?
> their qualities, their recording experience, their compensation/costs, etc?
> ¿nada, nothing, zero, zip, zilch?
> strange.....
> ...



Not so strange considering what he was asking.

But, on a side note I was doing a pop song not too long ago. The singer had a friend that played the cello. As a favor, kind of, I had the friend over. Learned that she hadn't played cello really since she was 16, couldn't really read music, and just recently started practicing again. I wasn't expecting much to say the least.

But, I was surprised that with a little coaching and a little "playing by ear" guiding, she was totally able to turn in a decent performance. Only took about 8 or 10 takes and about 30 minutes of rehearsing. And, the amount of variety of tone and emotion she imparted was nothing short of miraculous. Well worth the money I spent.

Human beings are amazing. They truly are. Even if he had hacks that haven't touched their instrument in 10 years with a little patience, teaching and explaining he'll get a decent performance. Heck it's not like he's writing a concerto for solo violin, so I assume that the parts will be pretty easy.


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## tslesicki (Feb 16, 2011)

Thank you again, I'll definitely post the recordings when they are done!

I also have an acces to a Rode NTG-2 shotgun mic but I guess it won't be of much use.

As for the number of the dynamic mics, I only have one and it's the Shure SM58. I've made a mistake in the first post, hence my question about it compared to the 57 :D


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## tslesicki (Feb 16, 2011)

josejherring @ Tue Feb 15 said:


> poseur @ Tue Feb 15 said:
> 
> 
> > no mention of the musicians being "_employed_"?
> ...



Thanks for that, it's comforting! :D However, I'm lucky enough to have some active musicians o/~


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