# VST choir with actual words



## Morodiene (Dec 22, 2015)

Hi,

I'm new to the forum, and pretty new to the world of VSTs, so please be gentle - I may ask a lot of questions to learn more. 

I've got about half of an oratorio composed (English text mostly, with some German), and I'm looking for a really good choir sound with actual words, and with a classical sound. There will be some epic singing, but also softer passages. I don't really need solo voices since I'm an opera singer. 

So far, it seems that Symphonic Choirs is the only one that can do what I need. From what I've read, it's not without its problems, but at $248 I figured it's worthwhile. However, I'd rather not have to upgrade later on down the road.

Despite the issues with SC, I'm not really sure I have another option that isn't trading one shortcoming for another. I just ordered the SC because I'm eager to get started and sick of hearing the fake choir sounds on Finale, but I can return it unopened if there's something better.

For budget, I don't really have one. I'd like to hear all of what's out there and assess for myself what I'm willing to pay after that, or if something is very expensive then at least I want to know what I can work towards if I ever make money doing this LOL.

Thanks for the help!


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## Hanu_H (Dec 22, 2015)

This seems to be the best one at the moment: https://www.virharmonic.com/voices_of_prague

-Hannes


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## Orchestrata (Dec 22, 2015)

I've always had a soft spot for Symphonic Choirs; it's a good, flexible option. That being said, it takes an insane amount of tweaking to get anything resembling real words, especially when the choir is exposed. I always walked away frustrated. I keep meaning to go back to it and give it a fresh go - it may simply have been inexperience, or subsequent updates to Word Builder may have helped - but haven't got round to it. Curious to know if others have had better luck than me. For general choir sounds, though, it's lovely. Voices of Prague seems like a good avenue of investigation, too. 

That being said, I'm not convinced that choir sampling is at the point where you'll be able to translate the piece you've written faithfully, especially if the choir is exposed and you have a specific text you're trying to convey (I get the idea a lot of the better demos are written "for the samples"). But, again, that may well be my own shortcomings. Would love to hear what you end up with, and your thoughts on the experience.

FWIW, my favorite choir VST is 8Dio Requiem Pro, but I do tend more towards the hybrid/epic side of things


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## pmcrockett (Dec 22, 2015)

I've not used any of the options besides EWQLSC, so I can't comment on how it compares, but I can echo Orchestrata's _insane amount of tweaking_ comment. You can run it with the defaults that it gives you for the words you enter, but the results won't sound good enough to be worth using. Each syllable consists of multiple consonant and vowel sounds which for best results must be manually layered, balanced, faded, and timed. Any given syllable may have to be redone to fit new contexts and will need to be tweaked for each choir section because the sections don't behave exactly the same. And even though the votox pronunciation system for syllable construction can give you a pretty good idea of how to write a word so the choir will pronounce it, you'll still need to blend in other unrelated consonant and vowel sounds to depurify the words so they'll sound natural instead of stilted. And all of this needs to be done with the VST's cramped/clumsy editor.

You can get some really impressive results if you're good at it and willing to put in the time, but it will certainly take a lot of work to do an entire oratorio. Being an opera singer will give you a bit of a leg up on the programming, though, because you already understand how singers deal with words -- a lot of the problems I hear in people's use of EWQLSC involve weird enunciation that you just wouldn't hear from a choir, and people can't fix it because they don't know what an actual choir sounds like.


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## Rex282 (Dec 22, 2015)

Best Service Mystica & Cantus get BOTH for $199(2 for 1)!!....they sound great,have a shared word builder..what's not to love.

http://www.bestservice.de/en/best_service.html


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## NYC Composer (Dec 22, 2015)

I have SC, and I'd echo the comments made- however, I can rarely understand the words sung by an actual choir in a hall either, so.


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## Morodiene (Dec 22, 2015)

NYC Composer said:


> I have SC, and I'd echo the comments made- however, I can rarely understand the words sung by an actual choir in a hall either, so.


That is true. However, a close approximation would be good.


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## Morodiene (Dec 22, 2015)

Rex282 said:


> Best Service Mystica & Cantus get BOTH for $199(2 for 1)!!....they sound great,have a shared word builder..what's not to love.
> 
> http://www.bestservice.de/en/best_service.html


Sounds good, but seems limited with regards to words.

On a separate note, I would think that those using vocals would understand that needing actual words and not nonsense pseudo-Latin stuff would be a thing. In each language there are phonemes that are used. Some overlap (like the Romantic languages of French, Italian, and Spanish) and so can be used across many, but then there are distinct vowel sounds like French nasals that need to be accommodated. It seems as though we ("we" meaning the people who actually make this software  ) have the ability to create something like this. 

I guess there has to be enough of a market for it. Or is it just me wanting this? Are most composers OK with using a choir for more of an effect than communicating words with meaning?


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## Morodiene (Dec 22, 2015)

Orchestrata said:


> I've always had a soft spot for Symphonic Choirs; it's a good, flexible option. That being said, it takes an insane amount of tweaking to get anything resembling real words, especially when the choir is exposed. I always walked away frustrated. I keep meaning to go back to it and give it a fresh go - it may simply have been inexperience, or subsequent updates to Word Builder may have helped - but haven't got round to it. Curious to know if others have had better luck than me. For general choir sounds, though, it's lovely. Voices of Prague seems like a good avenue of investigation, too.
> 
> That being said, I'm not convinced that choir sampling is at the point where you'll be able to translate the piece you've written faithfully, especially if the choir is exposed and you have a specific text you're trying to convey (I get the idea a lot of the better demos are written "for the samples"). But, again, that may well be my own shortcomings. Would love to hear what you end up with, and your thoughts on the experience.



I'll let you know wha tI come up with! So far I have two movements that are complete, and most of two other movements, and one yet to be conceived. It will probably take a while form what you've told me, but luckily the two completed movements aren't choir all the time: there's lots of solos in there.



> FWIW, my favorite choir VST is 8Dio Requiem Pro, but I do tend more towards the hybrid/epic side of things



This is one I was looking into. I don't mind epic, that's definitely present in my oratorio (which is about End Times, so you get the idea). How about words though? Can you do enough with Requiem to make some semblance of English words?

I was listening to Voices of Prague, but when I heard their rendition of Mozart's Requiem, I passed. Every single one of the full choir demos they had sounded like a boys choir for the women. This works for Mozart and some lighter stuff, but I need something like Robert Shaw and the Atlantic Symphony Chorus.


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## X-Bassist (Dec 22, 2015)

Just an idea, but some of my clearest words in a choir have come from combining Symphonic Choirs with Realivox Blue. Both have decent wordbuilders and Blue seems to add a touch more realism because the pronunciation is better. Checkout the walkthrough at the bottom of their page:

http://realitone.com/blue/

Both are SC and Blue are not too difficult, although SC can be a little confusing at first, after about 20 minutes of working on it you get the idea and can really get it to do almost anything. This video from Nick really helps explain:



Just keep in mind the word builder is built into SC now, so you access it with a button next to settings instead of a separate app (which is why Nick's windows are side by side in the video). Also I recommend getting the expansion (VOTA) as the cost is reasonable (especially when on sale) and gives you an extra loud dynamic that is very useful in bigger pieces.

Cheers! -XB


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## Morodiene (Dec 22, 2015)

X-Bassist said:


> Just an idea, but some of my clearest words in a choir have come from combining Symphonic Choirs with Realivox Blue. Both have decent wordbuilders and Blue seems to add a touch more realism because the pronunciation is better. Checkout the walkthrough at the bottom of their page:
> 
> http://realitone.com/blue/
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info! I was actually going to record myself over top some of the choral parts to help clarify some of the words, but still trying to get that to be where I like it (I need a booth). This looks like a viable option.


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## Saxer (Dec 23, 2015)

If you are a singer and you need choir: sing it. You probably know female singers too. If you record each part (at least) three times you will have a little choir that you can easily fill up with any choir library sound (even ooohs and aaahs will do) to make it sound larger.


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## TGV (Dec 23, 2015)

SC is capable of good results, but frustratingly hard to work with. It's very inconsistent, so you're compensating with all kinds of CC tricks and WordBuilder settings for every other phoneme. I've done a mockup of Mozart's Ave Verum that took me around 80 hours.

This is a mockup using Voices of Prague of a piece I wrote: the text comes from a French carol (d'ou viens tu, bergere; where do you come from, shepherd), the music was an improvisation over a Spanish carol (ya viene la vieja; here comes the old one). The mockup costs a lot less time, even though I had to work my way around a few lacking phonemes.

My advice: avoid hair pulling and go VoP.


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## Orchestrata (Dec 23, 2015)

Morodiene said:


> This is one I was looking into. I don't mind epic, that's definitely present in my oratorio (which is about End Times, so you get the idea). How about words though? Can you do enough with Requiem to make some semblance of English words?



Hmm... you're not really going to get English words out of it, I think. Very Latin-sounding; I always do 'nonsense' phrases, never English. The selection of syllables in the phrase builder is: Ag Cre Cru Do Fah Fis Glo Ky Mus Nis Nus Rhi Sanc Sin Son and Tus, with Latin pronunciation. There are a bunch of full words, too, like Sanctus and Apocalypse (maybe 20 or so), but in general it's geared towards the impression of words, rather than actual words. Works great for what I do - very epic, and comes with a ton of great choral FX and so on - but probably not so much for your current project :/

Good luck!


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## Morodiene (Dec 23, 2015)

Saxer said:


> If you are a singer and you need choir: sing it. You probably know female singers too. If you record each part (at least) three times you will have a little choir that you can easily fill up with any choir library sound (even ooohs and aaahs will do) to make it sound larger.


Interesting idea. I do know a lot of singers, but currently I want to work solo for a number of reasons. I can record myself singing soprano, alto and tenor, though and leave the bass to fend for themselves  . 

If I recorded only myself, would I record each part a few times to give more of a choral effect you think? I can manipulate my sound to a certain degree as well to make them sound more varied.


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## Morodiene (Dec 23, 2015)

TGV said:


> SC is capable of good results, but frustratingly hard to work with. It's very inconsistent, so you're compensating with all kinds of CC tricks and WordBuilder settings for every other phoneme. I've done a mockup of Mozart's Ave Verum that took me around 80 hours.
> 
> This is a mockup using Voices of Prague of a piece I wrote: the text comes from a French carol (d'ou viens tu, bergere; where do you come from, shepherd), the music was an improvisation over a Spanish carol (ya viene la vieja; here comes the old one). The mockup costs a lot less time, even though I had to work my way around a few lacking phonemes.
> 
> My advice: avoid hair pulling and go VoP.


Wow, very nice work! I really like the Ave Verum Corpus. It helps that I'm familiar with the piece so I know what the words are, and I think you did an excellent job - even though it took 80 hours >_< .

Can you elaborate on the "CC tricks" you are referring to? Just an example of what I'd be getting myself into if I go this route. I think as far as getting the diphthongs and things right, I have a good idea on what they sound like phonetically if that helps. I'm not opposed to hard work if I get the results I want. Ya, I'm picky. 

With the French one, I noticed that "viens" which should be pronounced "vyeh(n)" (with the "n" being only nasal and not a true "n"), you weren't able to get the "y" part of the diphthong. I'm not criticizing your work at all - I'm very impressed! It's more just showing me that the limitations of VOP may bother me too much.

Does VOP have a more epic choir sound as well? This is great for smaller choral works or early music, but not for a late Romantic large choral work like Brahms or Berlioz Requiem.


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## Saxer (Dec 23, 2015)

Yepp, I do that rather often but more in a pop style (kind of football stadion doubling refrains). But I see no reason why that shouldn't work in a classical context. To get a bigger group image: don't double too exact and don't record too close to the mic.


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## Morodiene (Dec 23, 2015)

Saxer said:


> Yepp, I do that rather often but more in a pop style (kind of football stadion doubling refrains). But I see no reason why that shouldn't work in a classical context. To get a bigger group image: don't double too exact and don't record too close to the mic.


Got it! What kind of distance do you recommend? I will be singing operatically for this, and can record at my church (which has bad acoustics because it's more a modern stage type area, but still a large space). Would you recommend that kind of distance?


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## Saxer (Dec 23, 2015)

Just a few steps back to avoid bass boost and too much breath of the voices. The mixing is the same as for any orchestral instrument.


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## Morodiene (Dec 23, 2015)

Saxer said:


> Just a few steps back to avoid bass boost and too much breath of the voices. The mixing is the same as for any orchestral instrument.


Thanks for your help, Saxer!


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## wpc982 (Dec 23, 2015)

You may have run across these demos before, but I do a lot of contemporary classical demos using choir samples -- there are recordings here of my own work and a few other things like Mozart and Josquin des Pres if you scroll down a bit. https://soundcloud.com/williamcopper Nearly all the choral works are samples -- message me privately if it sounds kind of like what you are thinking. Needless to say, it ain't perfect, by far.


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## wpc982 (Dec 23, 2015)

As an example of setting English, Emily Dickinson's "Heart not so heavy as mine" 

Heart not so heavy as mine
wending late home 
as it passed my window
whistled itself a tune.


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## BlueLight675 (Dec 23, 2015)

I own SC, and...man. I love it but...

Just go hit up a college, find the music department and offer up some free pizza and beer to some of the students, in exchange for recording the parts. 

I'm telling you - it would probably be a faster and easier (which could also translate into cheaper) solution.


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## ottomc (Dec 23, 2015)

I can recommend the choral libraries produced by Virharmonic. You can listen to an original composition of mine rendered with their Voices of Prague and Soloists of Prague at SoundCloud -- an a cappella setting of a section of the Gloria part of the Latin Mass,



The words are as follows,

'Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei; Filius Patris, Filius Matris, Filius Dei; Qui tollis, Qui tollis peccata mundi; Miserere, Miserere, Miserere nobis, Miserere, Miserere, Miserere nobis; Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei, Agnus Dei; Domine Deus, Miserere nobis, Amen Amen!'

The libraries are produced in Prague, with Czech singers, and the phonetic features of their mother tongue is audible in the samples, which generally have a rather dark character. Still, the group of phonemes present in the syllable sequencer covers not only Slavic languages (even if these in general are covered better than Western European languages, I suppose). English seems to be treated well, as you can see from the manual, which uses English words as examples when explaining how the syllable sequencer works. Latin is OK. French seems to be trickier, but Italian comes off better, I believe. Norwegian (my own first language) and German are both heavily in need of the sound which the linguists call ‘voiceless palatal fricative’ (used in German to pronounce essential words as ‘Ich’, and ‘nicht’). So the syllable sequencer is not phonetically perfect. But IMHO VOP is still the best tool available if you want to compose choral works with lyrics, even if the audible result is rather approximate from a phonetic point of view (but this is often true of real world choirs as well). Thus, all Western languages will get a somewhat Slavic colouring. There are lots of tweaking possibilities, though.

(1) Adjusting the volume/attack/delay/release of any vowel/consonant per voice is a very useful option. Tweaking these settings will change the playback considerably.

(2) In general the way you spell a word in the syllable sequencer is normally rather different from normal English spelling. Trial and error is probably the only working method here, with the manual as a useful guide.

(3) Im my experience, the most efficient way to make the words sound closer to what you want is to use different sounds in different voices at the same time. Thus, in the syllable sequencer you may mix ‘oo’ and ‘u’ in the English word ‘you’, by using ‘u’ in one or two voices and ‘oo’ in the other voices. The same applies to consonants — experiment with mixing different sounds!

(4) And of course different reverbs and reverb settings may yield rather different results when it comes to the phonetic behaviour of the samples.

I have uploaded a short sequence at YouTube (please watch in HD quality and increase the volume if necessary), where VOP sings ‘I love you’ in English, Italian and Norwegian (with an additional phrase in English). The ‘lyrics’ is as follows,

‘I love you, come kiss me. Ti amo. Jeg elsker deg’

Not great poetry, but that is not the point. The English sequence is notated as follows in the syllable sequencer,

S: ay lov yoo om gis mi
A: ay lof yu am giss mi
T: ay lov yu kam kis mi
B: ay lof yoo komm kis mi

For Italian ‘Ti amo’ I use ‘di a mo’ in all four voices.



The sequence starts with all four voices singing D above middle C, then I split the voices and repeat the sequence a couple of times in different registers, something which gives a somewhat different colour to the words. And the sequence ends with ‘I love you’ in English once again. Hastily made, but hopefully it will give you an idea of how one might tweak the sounds of the VOP samples.

I use the libraries within Notion, and I have uploaded a video showing how to use this combo,


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## wpc982 (Dec 23, 2015)

Rob Howard, "just bribe some students with pizza" is not really practical. It will sound like students and pizza. It's difficult enough to get a good recording with a paid engineer, a good hall, and professional singers .. and it's not cheap.


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Dec 23, 2015)

Morodiene said:


> Sounds good, but seems limited with regards to words.
> 
> I guess there has to be enough of a market for it. Or is it just me wanting this? Are most composers OK with using a choir for more of an effect than communicating words with meaning?



Of course everyone wants this but the technology is just not there yet. I have all of the choir libraries mentioned here, plus a few more. We are at a point now where libraries like SC can make more than Ah and Uh sounds. But none of them can effectively sing understandable words when mixed with a track. Lady in Blue upped it all a few notches, but that is a solo female, not a classical choir. I am satisfied with the choir sounding like it is singing Latin or an unknown foreign language. It is so much better than Ahs and Uhs. Once you play with SC and admit that, some of the others mentioned here are better choice, IMO. One not mentioned here is Cinesamples Voxos, one of my favorites. It has built in syllables like the rest, but in the end sounds better than typing in phonetics in SC. For custom word building, I would pick Virhamonics over EastWest SC, but it still sounds like a foreign language when you mix it with orchestral tracks. 8Dio Lacrimosa Epic Choir has a pretty neat sound as well.

We are a long way off from having a choir that sings the words that we type in, just as we are a long way off from having any instrument in the orchestra that can have sounds with the subtlety of a human. I did get SC to sing the old John Lennon line "I got blisters on me fingers" once, but even it got lost behind the quiet violins. Haha!


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## BlueLight675 (Dec 23, 2015)

wpc982 said:


> Rob Howard, "just bribe some students with pizza" is not really practical. It will sound like students and pizza. It's difficult enough to get a good recording with a paid engineer, a good hall, and professional singers .. and it's not cheap.



Agreed. That's my point. 

SC's is excellent - but the amount of time needed to put into it is not practical. Especially under super tight deadlines.


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## X-Bassist (Dec 23, 2015)

SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. said:


> Of course everyone wants this but the technology is just not there yet. I have all of the choir libraries mentioned here, plus a few more. We are at a point now where libraries like SC can make more than Ah and Uh sounds. But none of them can effectively sing understandable words when mixed with a track. Lady in Blue upped it all a few notches, but that is a solo female, not a classical choir. I am satisfied with the choir sounding like it is singing Latin or an unknown foreign language. It is so much better than Ahs and Uhs. Once you play with SC and admit that, some of the others mentioned here are better choice, IMO. One not mentioned here is Cinesamples Voxos, one of my favorites. It has built in syllables like the rest, but in the end sounds better than typing in phonetics in SC. For custom word building, I would pick Virhamonics over EastWest SC, but it still sounds like a foreign language when you mix it with orchestral tracks. 8Dio Lacrimosa Epic Choir has a pretty neat sound as well.
> 
> We are a long way off from having a choir that sings the words that we type in, just as we are a long way off from having any instrument in the orchestra that can have sounds with the subtlety of a human. I did get SC to sing the old John Lennon line "I got blisters on me fingers" once, but even it got lost behind the quiet violins. Haha!



I agree with all of this. As far as sound quality Voxos is my favorite, but between the cost (twice the price) and the lack of word building I didn't suggest it. OT Ark also has a nice big Chiors, but after getting all these I realize the complications of having a large chior say clear words (without recording every word) might be too large considering all the mics and room reflections that are recorded and combined to get stereo samples. Best bet seems to be combining single voices (like blue, but more variety) on top of choir. Which means recording it yourself (if your a decent singer or know some) might be the best choice. Layering your voice helps too, but you will need some other colors.

Sc is difficult to program if you want to do a long piece or opera, which no plugin is good for, but for choruses or shorter phrases SC, VOP, or others work fine.

After wrestling with chior libraries for a while (was looking for a great word builder too) I spoke to a number of developers and the answer was that when they build them, the sales are not great verse the cost (chior, location, gear, engineers)- so adding every phoenom needed greatly increases the cost. Recording single voices (like blue) is cheaper, but unfortunately single voices do even less sales. I believe this is because many people involved in music see themselves as singers (American Idol, The Voice, ect) so it's often the one thing the don't want (or don't feel they need to pay for). So with the low sales many developers are wary of putting more money into libraries that don't sell as well. Unfortunately there are few people like SPAC and myself who are willing to spend some cash to try to find a winning combo. Good news is I combined Voxos, SC, and blue the other night and it sounded just like the Indiana Jones Chior, not too shabby. But you couldn't understand the original words either. 

And granted, there are a number of phrase libraries, because there is less to record and script. But we all know it's not the same when someone chooses your words for you.


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## Morodiene (Dec 23, 2015)

wpc982 said:


> Rob Howard, "just bribe some students with pizza" is not really practical. It will sound like students and pizza. It's difficult enough to get a good recording with a paid engineer, a good hall, and professional singers .. and it's not cheap.


I hear that in the Czech Republic you can hire a choir for pretty cheap to record your music. But that comes with it own set of problems. So for now, it's struggling with software and doing my own samples, I guess.


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Dec 24, 2015)

X-Bassist said:


> Sc is difficult to program if you want to do a long piece or opera, which no plugin is good for, but for choruses or shorter phrases SC, VOP, or others work fine.
> 
> Good news is I combined Voxos, SC, and blue the other night and it sounded just like the Indiana Jones Chior, not too shabby. But you couldn't understand the original words either.
> 
> And granted, there are a number of phrase libraries, because there is less to record and script. But we all know it's not the same when someone chooses your words for you.



I agree with all that you said also @X-Bassist. Can you post your combination track? I would love to hear it. If you change my pessimistic view of the current state of the art choir technology, I will admit it publicly! ☺ That is not the reason that I want to hear your track though. It sounds like that you had fun and the track idea intrigues me. I am willing to bet that I will have fun listening to it. But what I would love hear is someone making a choir sing "Rubber baby buggy bumper" or "If a dog chews shoes, whose shoes does he choose?" or this entire song verse:

Betty Botter bought some butter
But she said the butter’s bitter
If I put it in my batter, it will make my batter bitter
But a bit of better butter will make my batter better
So ‘twas better Betty Botter bought a bit of better butter


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Dec 24, 2015)

Or, if I could program a solo soprano vocal library sing this track today, I would be ecstatic! This is my real wish. Hey, a person can dream can't they?


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## lucor (Dec 24, 2015)

If you want to build a choir from recording yourself this might be of help:





End result at 11:49 in the third video. Doesn't sound too bad I think, especially considering that he sang the female parts as well. If you layer it with an actual vst choir it might get even better.


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## Morodiene (Dec 24, 2015)

Lucor: thanks for the videos! That gave me a lot of ideas on what I can try!


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## Morodiene (Dec 24, 2015)

ottomc said:


> I can recommend the choral libraries produced by Virharmonic. You can listen to an original composition of mine rendered with their Voices of Prague and Soloists of Prague at SoundCloud -- an a cappella setting of a section of the Gloria part of the Latin Mass,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ottomc: I appreciate what you've done here. However, unless I knew exactly what the words were, I would just be guessing. Or rather, I'd think they weren't singing anything in particular. I think with any of the software out there, I'm going to have to add an element of human singing to get something intelligible.

Since I've already ordered SC and it's on the way, I think I'm going to give it a try and use the "frankenstein" approach. I don't know what I'm getting into, so I very well may arrive at the same conclusion you are at.

I do wonder, for those who have used SC and state how much time it took: how much time of that was initially learning the ropes, coming up with tricks to get it to work the way you wanted? This time would obviously be cut considerably on subsequent uses of the software, once you built up an arsenal of possible work-arounds.

**edited to add: Your first clip with the Latin was much better. About how much time was spent on this?


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## Morodiene (Dec 25, 2015)

Heh, so I found this:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/vp-770/

demo here: 

Too bad they don't have a more epic sound available - this is really cool!


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## Orchestrata (Dec 25, 2015)

TGV said:


> SC is capable of good results, but frustratingly hard to work with. It's very inconsistent, so you're compensating with all kinds of CC tricks and WordBuilder settings for every other phoneme. I've done a mockup of Mozart's Ave Verum that took me around 80 hours.
> 
> This is a mockup using Voices of Prague of a piece I wrote: the text comes from a French carol (d'ou viens tu, bergere; where do you come from, shepherd), the music was an improvisation over a Spanish carol (ya viene la vieja; here comes the old one). The mockup costs a lot less time, even though I had to work my way around a few lacking phonemes.



These are amazing. Well done!


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## TGV (Dec 25, 2015)

Morodiene said:


> Can you elaborate on the "CC tricks" you are referring to? Just an example of what I'd be getting myself into if I go this route. I think as far as getting the diphthongs and things right, I have a good idea on what they sound like phonetically if that helps. I'm not opposed to hard work if I get the results I want. Ya, I'm picky.
> 
> With the French one, I noticed that "viens" which should be pronounced "vyeh(n)" (with the "n" being only nasal and not a true "n"), you weren't able to get the "y" part of the diphthong. I'm not criticizing your work at all - I'm very impressed! It's more just showing me that the limitations of VOP may bother me too much.
> 
> Does VOP have a more epic choir sound as well? This is great for smaller choral works or early music, but not for a late Romantic large choral work like Brahms or Berlioz Requiem.


I cannot really remember all the details: it was some time ago, and I haven't used SC since, but basically it involves compensating for differences in loudness between phonemes using CC1/CC11, and changing the velocity, timing and fading on the notes and within syllables so that the cross-over between phonemes is natural and fast enough. I remember that for Ave Verum, after some initial work, I just reset everything and doubled the consonant speed as a better starting point. I also remember that the close mics offer the best sound, although sibilance is stronger. That kind of problem I never had with VoP.

VoP has less phonemes than SC, that's true, but SC is missing some too: "ü", if I remember properly, and the German "ch" are among them. It is easier to do diphthongs in SC than in VoP.

Both libs can sound big, but SC more than VoP if you get the "Apocalypse" expansion. Then it sounds epic. One weakness of SC is the solo voices: they do not have WordBuilder. Virharmonik has a "soloists" library, but at an extra cost.


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## Vastman (Dec 25, 2015)

X-Bassist said:


> Just an idea, but some of my clearest words in a choir have come from combining Symphonic Choirs with Realivox Blue. Both have decent wordbuilders and Blue seems to add a touch more realism because the pronunciation is better. Checkout the walkthrough at the bottom of their page:
> 
> http://realitone.com/blue/
> 
> ...



Personally I think the EW options SUCK! I tried for a long time years ago when I got this in a CCC purchase... NEVER could make it work. Maybe I'm dumb, but I find it interesting that Nick NEVER actually played the phrases he selected... I think this is a cool concept but the big problem with EWQL is they sell you shit and then ignore it afterwords... no updates, no refinements... just take ur money and run.

On the other hand, I have *Blue*... and it is actively being refined. As Mike Green (Realitone) told me in an email back and forth... as he gets more money he is investing in more syllables and consonants/combos with the same artists...He is local and uses local artists... who sing in english... *I say send him your bucks... you'll get more bang from it.*

Personally I'm sick of all the bullshit latin phrasings and crappola... I want to type in a "MESSAGE" OR "PHRASE" relating to the song I'm working on and have it work!!!

with all the A.I. and stuff, _someone should be able to do this..._ I think Mike is the *ONLY* one trying. But it is costly and supporting it is necessary! I have a friend, Alex Smith, who has the foremost weekly climate change program/podcast (radio ecoshock) who was telling Mike, "_*I can't make your sweetie say "Climate Change" in a way people can understand what's being said"*_... so Mike added some sounds to make it better...possible in an update...

Essentially, I feel the more we support such people the better... forget the others who gimmick the objective...or want to sell us *MORE OF THE SAME AWESOME BUT WORTHLESS (to me at least) choirs that say absolutely NOTHING!!!*

I recognize this is a real challenge... most choir mentality revolve around religious garbage/latin crappola which has been done since the beginning of time.

Coming up with a REAL workable natural language English coral group is a totally NEW desire/task... think about it, support and encourage those that share your vision and don't waste money on the same ol worn out thing...

*From what I see, Mike is the only one doing this at present...so email him, ask how you can support his effort, tell him what you need... after all, HE IS ONE OF US! *

Just my 2 cents...


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## Morodiene (Dec 25, 2015)

Vastman said:


> Personally I think the EW options SUCK! I tried for a long time years ago when I got this in a CCC purchase... NEVER could make it work. Maybe I'm dumb, but I find it interesting that Nick NEVER actually played the phrases he selected... I think this is a cool concept but the big problem with EWQL is they sell you shit and then ignore it afterwords... no updates, no refinements... just take ur money and run.
> 
> On the other hand, I have Blue... and it is actively being refined. As Mike Green gets more money he is investing in more syllables and consonants/combos with the same artists... I say send him your bucks... you get more bang from it.
> 
> ...


Blue is great...except it's not a large choir. I also think it's such a blessing that we have even what we have. 10 years ago, this was unheard of.

I don't think it's a matter of not being able to do it, but rather, doing it in such a way as to make it profitable. These companies can't devote thousands to R&D on a product that most likely won't break even in sales, or that they can't charge enough with the limited market to profit. I totally get that.

Maybe someday I'll accumulate enough favors from people that I'll just do my own samples lol


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## Vastman (Dec 25, 2015)

Morodiene... as you were posting I was retyping/clarifying my post which is spot on with your thoughts... reread and let me know if we're in sync!

If I were a millionaire, I'd send Mike 60k and say... make her talk... then make all the ladies talk!

Unfortunately, I'm a poor gardener spending loads on tools to get my own message out!


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## alextone (Dec 29, 2015)

The chaps at virharmonic seem to be close.


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## Morodiene (Dec 29, 2015)

alextone said:


> The chaps at virharmonic seem to be close.



Really not bad considering the limitations. I still haven't gotten SC in the mail, so I guess I'm a bit on the fence still. Suppose I should look at someone using SC to get a better feel for the work involved (or maybe the video would have to be time-lapsed to upload to Youtube lol).


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## Casiquire (Dec 29, 2015)

I'm the kind of guy who plays in each string line about four to six times, multiplied by each divisi line. If you're the same way and don't mind crafting the music and chipping away then SC will be perfect. Thing is, even in a live choir, pronunciation is up for debate. The better choir directors I've worked with have taken great care over how syllables are pronounced so the best choir library can't be too rigid, and SC is anything but rigid. Once you learn its quirks it gets easier and easier to deal with. I know that for most of my music I can just go right ahead and double the consonant length and overlap much of it with vowels, I know the curves that will get the best diphthongs to my ear, etc, so my first pass of editing is broad and quick and gets me most of the way there. Once you learn it you'll feel the same way. Then you can tweak and edit for basically the rest of your life lol.


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## Morodiene (Dec 29, 2015)

Casiquire said:


> I'm the kind of guy who plays in each string line about four to six times, multiplied by each divisi line. If you're the same way and don't mind crafting the music and chipping away then SC will be perfect. Thing is, even in a live choir, pronunciation is up for debate. The better choir directors I've worked with have taken great care over how syllables are pronounced so the best choir library can't be too rigid, and SC is anything but rigid. Once you learn its quirks it gets easier and easier to deal with. I know that for most of my music I can just go right ahead and double the consonant length and overlap much of it with vowels, I know the curves that will get the best diphthongs to my ear, etc, so my first pass of editing is broad and quick and gets me most of the way there. Once you learn it you'll feel the same way. Then you can tweak and edit for basically the rest of your life lol.


Thanks for this perspective. I watched a tutorial of SC and really it seemed to make sense to me. I've worked a lot in choirs and directing, too, so I know some tricks to get better diction and perhaps some of those will help here as well. Plus I'm sure I'll have to play around quite a bit, like you say.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Jan 3, 2016)

Casiquire said:


> I'm the kind of guy who plays in each string line about four to six times, multiplied by each divisi line. If you're the same way and don't mind crafting the music and chipping away then SC will be perfect. Thing is, even in a live choir, pronunciation is up for debate. The better choir directors I've worked with have taken great care over how syllables are pronounced so the best choir library can't be too rigid, and SC is anything but rigid. Once you learn its quirks it gets easier and easier to deal with. I know that for most of my music I can just go right ahead and double the consonant length and overlap much of it with vowels, I know the curves that will get the best diphthongs to my ear, etc, so my first pass of editing is broad and quick and gets me most of the way there. Once you learn it you'll feel the same way. Then you can tweak and edit for basically the rest of your life lol.



Hello Casiquire,
Sorry to possibly interrupt this thread, but it seems you work(ed) a lot with SC.

How do you go about long texts? I have trouble working with long texts ( chorus, couplets , etc)since it either means putting it all in one save, or using multiple instances on various tracks?

Or do you know other ways, or have I simply missed the obvious ways to use long lyrics?


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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 6, 2016)

Both the Venus and Mars choirs do this. Not nearly as in depth as Symphonic Choirs, but to me they sound much more rich and full sounding. i'd take that over the more word choices any day of the week!


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## Morodiene (Jan 7, 2016)

Finally got my new computer and SC installed on it. I had a little time to play around with it, and so far I think it's pretty darn cool! Tried entering in the words of one of my choruses after watching part of a tutorial to get me started, and it sounded very accurate. 

Now I have to learn how to do melismas and I'm sure there will be lots of tweaking to do, but so far it's looking promising. 

Geoffrey: I also got the VOTA expansion and haven't played around with those sounds yet. So maybe that will help with the richness you're talking about. Plus, if need be I can always overdub my voice. Really, words are very significant in what I've written, so understanding them is more of a priority for me (at least, as much as one would with a real choir).


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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 7, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Finally got my new computer and SC installed on it. I had a little time to play around with it, and so far I think it's pretty darn cool! Tried entering in the words of one of my choruses after watching part of a tutorial to get me started, and it sounded very accurate.
> 
> Now I have to learn how to do melismas and I'm sure there will be lots of tweaking to do, but so far it's looking promising.
> 
> Geoffrey: I also got the VOTA expansion and haven't played around with those sounds yet. So maybe that will help with the richness you're talking about. Plus, if need be I can always overdub my voice. Really, words are very significant in what I've written, so understanding them is more of a priority for me (at least, as much as one would with a real choir).



VOTA doesn't really make it more "full" sounding, but that expansion is definitely beautifully haunting. It was my favorite thing about SC back when I was using PLAY still. Before Kontakt and building my own libraries. If you can, I'd definitely layer in your own voice! That would help add a more humanistic feel to it anyways! Sometimes samples can be too perfect.


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## JohnG (Jan 7, 2016)

A lot of good suggestions here, including layering in your own voice or getting a college / church choir together (you need a good engineer and equipment, but that's doable in most towns). A variant would be to hire four (even two) of the professionals from a choir at a large church and get them to sing overdubs on multiple tracks. Large churches almost always retain at least some professional singers. If you're in a big city it may help.

If the piece is a cappella, then nothing is going to compare to live singers. Just make sure you record in a synagogue or church or empty theatre or something else large (with complex surfaces -- not a warehouse) so it sounds the way you want. You can't get a choir / cathedral / oratorio sound with a mic placed 10 feet from the singer in a small boxy room. It will sound -- like a small, boxy room.

Personally, I've tried quite a few choir libraries and I always come back to SC for old school with lyrics. I've owned it since it was first released so I am aware of the labour required to get it "really good." That said, under intense time pressure I've used it to mock up lyrics for backing tracks and trailers, and it sounds good enough to get in the theatres. For what that's worth!

I'd also check out anything Mike Greene does; hadn't thought of combining Realivox but it's a cool idea.

One last thing, which may be too expensive; a friend of mine recorded a stunning choir album in Pennsylvania. If you want the details on the choir / singers / etc. PM me.

[note: I have received free products from East West and one also from Mike Greene some years ago]


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## Morodiene (Jan 15, 2016)

So been reading the manual and playing around with SC and doing pretty well, actually. I'm using the Votox which I find to be quite easy to work with. Still learning about the other functions, though, so not quite ready to post a sample.

I've hit a snag, however, with Cubase Elements 7, and apparently it's common. I can work on Wordbuilder in standalone mode, save phrases, no problem. I can then open Cubase and Play as a plug-in, and open those saved phrases and record. No problem. But if I want to edit the phrases within the plug-in, I'm unable to do so because Cubase's keyboard commands override it. So if I type a space in Wordbuilder, its starts playing the file. Different letters do different things in Cubase. 

Is there some way I can have the plug-in override Cubase's commands? There is no way I can concurrently run Wordbuilder standalone and the Play plugin in Cubase and flip back and forth. Tried that and the words get all jumbled up with two instances running. So this means I have to close Cubase, run WB standalone, then save & close that, open Cubase and then play, save & close that, etc.

I guess this is a known problem in Reaper as well. Any suggestions?


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## Pasticcio (Jan 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Is there some way I can have the plug-in override Cubase's commands? There is no way I can concurrently run Wordbuilder standalone and the Play plugin in Cubase and flip back and forth. Tried that and the words get all jumbled up with two instances running. So this means I have to close Cubase, run WB standalone, then save & close that, open Cubase and then play, save & close that, etc.
> 
> I guess this is a known problem in Reaper as well. Any suggestions?


Perhaps there is a much smoother way of doing this, but one way could be to go to File -> Key Commands, search up all keys using the commands you need & remove them, saving this as a preset and then switch between the "overrided keycommands" & "default keycommands" for whenever you are using wordbuilder or not.


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## Morodiene (Jan 15, 2016)

Pasticcio said:


> Perhaps there is a much smoother way of doing this, but one way could be to go to File -> Key Commands, search up all keys using the commands you need & remove them, saving this as a preset and then switch between the "overrided keycommands" & "default keycommands" for whenever you are using wordbuilder or not.


Thanks, this is a good workaround. Do you know if there's a key command to toggle between setups?


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## g.c. (Jan 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Interesting idea. I do know a lot of singers, but currently I want to work solo for a number of reasons. I can record myself singing soprano, alto and tenor, though and leave the bass to fend for themselves  .
> 
> If I recorded only myself, would I record each part a few times to give more of a choral effect you think? I can manipulate my sound to a certain degree as well to make them sound more varied.



Morodiene,
Ircam Flux
*ircam*tools.com
has a plugin named "Trax 3" (I haven't used it, can only vouch that reputationally they are good as a developer) with which you can alter the gender and age of any recorded vocal pretty convincing(see there demos). This would allow "you" to record all of the choir text and melody with your (soprano?)voice and then alter YOUR vocals with libretto all the way down to your basses. No word builders. You've entered the words just as you would in any vocal recording.
Seems to be a much more direct way for anyone to input choir tracks, without the restrictions of having to write to the limits of your chosen softwares.
There are a number of pitch correction and pitch split out to harmonies around that you could use to build your "choir" voices with from your original recording. Many DAWS including Cubase have one as part of there plugin bundles.
Maybe someone on the forum, if they've used TRAX, can offer you an opinion. And Flux provides free demo trials and tutorials.
g.c.


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## Pasticcio (Jan 16, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Thanks, this is a good workaround. Do you know if there's a key command to toggle between setups?


Not that I'm aware of :/ You could set a key command for the Key Commands window though, which might simplify the workflow just a bit.


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## passsacaglia (Jan 17, 2016)

Hey there, thought I'd add a question to the thread if that's cool.
Anyone "compared" 8Dio Liberis angel boy choir vs the Voices of Prague?
At the moment I'm not able to listen and use a lot of wifi (travels), but from an older youtube video I loved the 7/8 vowel master sustain-something function. Is this a standard function on all choir libraries where you can go from a mmm-aaah in 2 steps? 
Just l o v e the soundtrack of Spielberg's Empire of the sun with little Chrissy Bale there hehe.
/thx in advance, Daveman


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## Morodiene (Jan 17, 2016)

They both can do what you're talking about, I believe. The VoP is a more full choir sound available, whereas I think 8dio is just choir boys. They both have a limited amount of syllables, but I think you should be able to work with both. Personally, I really like VoP if it was only able to program actual words!


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## Morodiene (Jan 17, 2016)

Pasticcio said:


> Perhaps there is a much smoother way of doing this, but one way could be to go to File -> Key Commands, search up all keys using the commands you need & remove them, saving this as a preset and then switch between the "overrided keycommands" & "default keycommands" for whenever you are using wordbuilder or not.


Well, I created a Key Command file that removed any of the key commands I'd need to type in WB, but I'm still not able to type anything. Cubase doesn't go all crazy now, but can't type or copy/paste text into WB.

I then tried freezing the Play track in Cubase, then opening the standalone to alter text, saving that, then going to unfreeze in Cubase, but I still have to shut down the standalone prior to unfreezing for it to work. Not much advantage for doing this, except if I absolutely need to edit something, I don't have to completely shut down Cubase, but not sure this really saves me any time.


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## Mikedunn (Jan 17, 2016)

Morodiene, I have had EWQLSC/wordbuilder since they first designed and released it, quite a few years ago now. At the time I thought it was revolutionary (which it was) and that within a few months East West would update it and it would be sleek and easy to use. Huh :-( like that was gonna happen (for all the 'business' reasons already mentioned on this thread). However, nothing better has come along (still), and I like you often need to have a choir sing my own words. I have spent hours and hours (and hours) programming this software for many different pieces and it is hard work, tedious, time consuming and unforgiving, but if you mix it with real voices you can get pretty good results. I find votox is better than the other two options, also to write the votox words out in a text editor first and then paste them into wordbuilder (which might solve your current problem). This does mean having to learn votox as a language (which is not as hard as it sounds, you are probably half way there already). Also, I find if I am doing a long piece I have to render sections to audio as I go, cos if you try to get too much text into WB at one go it becomes very unwieldy. It is so frustrating this software has not been improved on, I think it's something like 10 years (? or does it just FEEL that long since it came out) or even sold to another developer who could take it to the next level. On the other hand, as a singer yourself, if you think about it, the noises you make when you sing and enunciate words as they come out of your mouth with endless little foibles and mannerisms, slurs and dynamic variants, it _is_ a tough call. mebbe one day  here is a link to the most recent piece I used it for. I wish you very, very good luck in what has to be a labour of love, nobody sane would do it ;p


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## JohnG (Jan 17, 2016)

from what you wrote, it sounds almost as though you are using the Ancient Version of word builder, in which it was a separate program. Is that right? I find it much easier to use the updated version that incorporates WB into PLAY. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

Cheers!
John


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## pmcrockett (Jan 17, 2016)

Back before the wordbuilder was integrated into Play, there was a standalone application that you needed to use that interfaced with the DAW via virtual MIDI ports (LoopBe, etc.). Dunno if the newer versions of Symphonic Choirs install this standalone wordbuilder (or if the new versions of Play still work with it), but it might be worth checking since using it would likely solve the issue of Cubase eating the keystrokes. On my system (Windows 7 x64), the executable for it is located at C:\Program Files\EastWest\WordBuilderPLAY\WordBuilderPlayx64.exe.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 17, 2016)

No, the standalone Wordbuilder app only works with the old Kontakt version.


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## Morodiene (Jan 17, 2016)

EastWest Lurker said:


> No, the standalone Wordbuilder app only works with the old Kontakt version.


I'm using Play within Cubase as a plugin. I cannot use WB at all for any text editing. All I can do is adjust the volume and length of the vowels, but unabele to type anything. I'm working strictly in votox, one instance of Play open.

The only way I'm ever to type anything in WB is to open the standalone Play, and do it there, save the phrase, and then open it in Cubase. Any ideas why I can't type in WB as a plugin?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 17, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> I'm using Play within Cubase as a plugin. I cannot use WB at all for any text editing. All I can do is adjust the volume and length of the vowels, but unabele to type anything. I'm working strictly in votox, one instance of Play open.
> 
> The only way I'm ever to type anything in WB is to open the standalone Play, and do it there, save the phrase, and then open it in Cubase. Any ideas why I can't type in WB as a plugin?




Sorry, no, I don't use Cubase, only Logic Pro and I don't have that issue


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## Morodiene (Jan 17, 2016)

Mikedunn said:


> Morodiene, I have had EWQLSC/wordbuilder since they first designed and released it, quite a few years ago now. At the time I thought it was revolutionary (which it was) and that within a few months East West would update it and it would be sleek and easy to use. Huh :-( like that was gonna happen (for all the 'business' reasons already mentioned on this thread). However, nothing better has come along (still), and I like you often need to have a choir sing my own words. I have spent hours and hours (and hours) programming this software for many different pieces and it is hard work, tedious, time consuming and unforgiving, but if you mix it with real voices you can get pretty good results. I find votox is better than the other two options, also to write the votox words out in a text editor first and then paste them into wordbuilder (which might solve your current problem). This does mean having to learn votox as a language (which is not as hard as it sounds, you are probably half way there already). Also, I find if I am doing a long piece I have to render sections to audio as I go, cos if you try to get too much text into WB at one go it becomes very unwieldy. It is so frustrating this software has not been improved on, I think it's something like 10 years (? or does it just FEEL that long since it came out) or even sold to another developer who could take it to the next level. On the other hand, as a singer yourself, if you think about it, the noises you make when you sing and enunciate words as they come out of your mouth with endless little foibles and mannerisms, slurs and dynamic variants, it _is_ a tough call. mebbe one day  here is a link to the most recent piece I used it for. I wish you very, very good luck in what has to be a labour of love, nobody sane would do it ;p



Thanks for posting your piece! I think the words are very clear.

FWIW, I am using votox (I find it pretty easy). I tried typing them out and copying/pasting into WB when it's a plugin, and it did not paste.

I'm still learning the ropes (haven't made it through 1/3 of the manual yet), so there are some things that I have questions about, but I want to make sure they're not covered in the manual before asking. However, I do like the result I'm getting with the words. Just wondering if there's something I'm doing wrong (maybe something with the setup of Play?) that I need to fix to make this work correctly.


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## Morodiene (Jan 17, 2016)

JohnG said:


> from what you wrote, it sounds almost as though you are using the Ancient Version of word builder, in which it was a separate program. Is that right? I find it much easier to use the updated version that incorporates WB into PLAY. Apologies if I'm mistaken.
> 
> Cheers!
> John


I'm using the one where the two are integrated.


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## Mikedunn (Jan 17, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Thanks for posting your piece! I think the words are very clear.
> 
> FWIW, I am using votox (I find it pretty easy). I tried typing them out and copying/pasting into WB when it's a plugin, and it did not paste.
> 
> I'm still learning the ropes (haven't made it through 1/3 of the manual yet), so there are some things that I have questions about, but I want to make sure they're not covered in the manual before asking. However, I do like the result I'm getting with the words. Just wondering if there's something I'm doing wrong (maybe something with the setup of Play?) that I need to fix to make this work correctly.



I run it in Nuendo, which is very similar to Cubase, and it works fine as a plugin. not wishing to state the obvious, but when you try to type in words, you have clicked in the WB text box to move focus into it ? (sorry I'm sure you have ;p ) If I have, say, Notepad open at the same time, I can type words into Notepad, select and 'control c' copy those words to the clipboard, then click in the WB interface and then 'control v' to paste those words in and it works no prob, so if that's not happening for you it may be the install, very possibly - if you just bought it I am sure East West support would help you, they have your dosh after all so seems only right. Good luck.


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## Morodiene (Jan 17, 2016)

Mikedunn said:


> I run it in Nuendo, which is very similar to Cubase, and it works fine as a plugin. not wishing to state the obvious, but when you try to type in words, you have clicked in the WB text box to move focus into it ? (sorry I'm sure you have ;p ) If I have, say, Notepad open at the same time, I can type words into Notepad, select and 'control c' copy those words to the clipboard, then click in the WB interface and then 'control v' to paste those words in and it works no prob, so if that's not happening for you it may be the install, very possibly - if you just bought it I am sure East West support would help you, they have your dosh after all so seems only right. Good luck.


This is really strange. I cannot do what you do :( . This is a new computer, new install of Cubase and of SC. I checked to make sure I had the latest updates for all. Any time I try to type in the text editor section of WB, I just get the little "boop" sound from the computer telling me I'm doing something I shouldn't, and nothing happens. I am able to highlight text that is there. I had posted on the EW forum a couple of days ago, but no response from anyone. I searched that forum, too, and it seems that it has come up before, but no solution was offered.

On their site I've read through the FAQs and such, so I've submitted a ticket. Thanks for your help!


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## SillyMidOn (Jan 18, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> This is really strange. I cannot do what you do :( . This is a new computer, new install of Cubase and of SC. I checked to make sure I had the latest updates for all. Any time I try to type in the text editor section of WB, I just get the little "boop" sound from the computer telling me I'm doing something I shouldn't, and nothing happens. I am able to highlight text that is there. I had posted on the EW forum a couple of days ago, but no response from anyone. I searched that forum, too, and it seems that it has come up before, but no solution was offered.
> 
> On their site I've read through the FAQs and such, so I've submitted a ticket. Thanks for your help!



Man I feel sorry for you. Welcome to the joys of Word Builder and EWQL Choirs. Argh.

By far the best option is, as mentioned before, to overdub with live singers, sing the part in your range several times - stand in different places in relation to the mic and eq it to get some variation, then get one other female vocalist, and two male singers (B, T), give them a little pocket money, and it will sound so much better.

As so often with posts on here unfortunantely the answer is one of budget.


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## Mikedunn (Jan 18, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> This is really strange. I cannot do what you do :( . This is a new computer, new install of Cubase and of SC. I checked to make sure I had the latest updates for all. Any time I try to type in the text editor section of WB, I just get the little "boop" sound from the computer telling me I'm doing something I shouldn't, and nothing happens. I am able to highlight text that is there. I had posted on the EW forum a couple of days ago, but no response from anyone. I searched that forum, too, and it seems that it has come up before, but no solution was offered.
> 
> On their site I've read through the FAQs and such, so I've submitted a ticket. Thanks for your help!



mm. Sounds like summat's not right there. Hope you get a reply sorted soon. Let us know how you get on. If you hear nothing back for ages you could try a fresh install of both progs, but it may not fix it if something else is the cause - did you install Cube first, SC second ? Latest updates on your OS, latest Play update ? Once again, I'm sure you did but worth checking. Poor you. I know how it feels. Just remember you WILL get there


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## Mikedunn (Jan 18, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Man I feel sorry for you. Welcome to the joys of Word Builder and EWQL Choirs. Argh.
> 
> By far the best option is, as mentioned before, to overdub with live singers, sing the part in your range several times - stand in different places in relation to the mic and eq it to get some variation, then get one other female vocalist, and two male singers (B, T), give them a little pocket money, and it will sound so much better.
> 
> As so often with posts on here unfortunantely the answer is one of budget.





Morodiene said:


> This is really strange. I cannot do what you do :( . This is a new computer, new install of Cubase and of SC. I checked to make sure I had the latest updates for all. Any time I try to type in the text editor section of WB, I just get the little "boop" sound from the computer telling me I'm doing something I shouldn't, and nothing happens. I am able to highlight text that is there. I had posted on the EW forum a couple of days ago, but no response from anyone. I searched that forum, too, and it seems that it has come up before, but no solution was offered.
> 
> On their site I've read through the FAQs and such, so I've submitted a ticket. Thanks for your help!




Just had another thought, you could look through your Cubase 'preferences' to see if there is a way to turn key commands off, which might stop Cube stealing your keyboard, you'll have to search around a bit to find it. good luck.


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## Morodiene (Jan 18, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Man I feel sorry for you. Welcome to the joys of Word Builder and EWQL Choirs. Argh.
> 
> By far the best option is, as mentioned before, to overdub with live singers, sing the part in your range several times - stand in different places in relation to the mic and eq it to get some variation, then get one other female vocalist, and two male singers (B, T), give them a little pocket money, and it will sound so much better.
> 
> As so often with posts on here unfortunantely the answer is one of budget.


On the bright side, I'm a voice teacher, so I have some very good sounding students who I know would help me out since I'm always doing stuff for free for them. I'm also a pianist, so since I don't have a tenor student, I can probably do trade-out for a colleague.


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## Morodiene (Jan 18, 2016)

Mikedunn said:


> Just had another thought, you could look through your Cubase 'preferences' to see if there is a way to turn key commands off, which might stop Cube stealing your keyboard, you'll have to search around a bit to find it. good luck.


Well, this is a new computer, so everything's a fresh install, I did install Cubase first. And while I can turn off key commands, it still does not allow the plugin to have key commands. 

I did a search on google and apparently this is a known issue with Cubase and also with Reaper in general (not specifically in relation to SC), where the DAW does not allow key commands for the plugins to work. So, not really sure there is much that EW can do about that, unfortunately. 

I am going to try reinstalling Cubase, however. You never know


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## Morodiene (Jan 18, 2016)

Well, this is interesting. So I had gone through the "get info" window to uncheck 32-bit mode which is what Steinberg said to do in order to run in 64-bit mode. Even though that was done, every time I launched Cubase from my icon on the dock, it would load in 32-bit mode according to the About Cubase screen. I deleted my icon from the dock and launched directly from the Applications folder, and it would run in 64-bit mode. Created a new icon on the dock, and sure enough, it was back at running in 32-bit mode. So I've just put the icon on the desktop to load from there and it starts up in 64-bit mode!

So now I can type in WB no problems. Thanks to my hubby for helping me troubleshoot! Now I can get to work lol


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## Mikedunn (Jan 18, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Well, this is interesting. So I had gone through the "get info" window to uncheck 32-bit mode which is what Steinberg said to do in order to run in 64-bit mode. Even though that was done, every time I launched Cubase from my icon on the dock, it would load in 32-bit mode according to the About Cubase screen. I deleted my icon from the dock and launched directly from the Applications folder, and it would run in 64-bit mode. Created a new icon on the dock, and sure enough, it was back at running in 32-bit mode. So I've just put the icon on the desktop to load from there and it starts up in 64-bit mode!
> 
> So now I can type in WB no problems. Thanks to my hubby for helping me troubleshoot! Now I can get to work lol



Great stuff. So that's the easy part done, now you have to share headspace with Wordbuilder  Happy composing, glad you're fixed.


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## SillyMidOn (Jan 18, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> On the bright side, I'm a voice teacher, so I have some very good sounding students who I know would help me out since I'm always doing stuff for free for them. I'm also a pianist, so since I don't have a tenor student, I can probably do trade-out for a colleague.



Good plan!


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## Morodiene (Jan 18, 2016)

SillyMidOn said:


> Good plan!


Not that I don't want to pay people what they're worth for their time and all, but I'm not getting paid to do this - and considering I'm already waaaay in the red with equipment and software purchases - so I need to be more "budget-minded" for the time being.


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