# Veganism - Tips and Tricks



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

MODERATOR NOTE: This thread is an off-shoot of https://vi-control.net/community/th...erything-by-uninstalling-a-single-vst.123380/ 



VeganPete said:


> FFS. I really can't believe this has happened.


Terrible!

Just brainstorming here, but do you think it might be because you're a vegan?


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 4, 2022)

I doubt it - animal cruelty has nothing to do with my files being deleted.

Of course, I understand that people like to poke fun and post gif memes - I don't want to come across as being grumpy/cranky but while the issue has been raised, I may as well explain - I became vegan after a military tour of Iraq (burning human flesh smells like cooked meat). I was injured and had to be cas-evacced home with a broken back. Shortly after I returned, my daughter passed away with Turners Syndrome and I started to suffer from PTSD and had hallucinations and flashbacks. i was forced to leave the military on medical grounds and after an extended period of unemployment, my wife divorced me. Luckilly I survived a suicide attempt- but eating meat was still a huge problem because it made me vomit and the smell triggered flashbacks. After months of reccurring nightmares of death, I decided to go Veggie back in 2003 and then vegan in 2009. I would say I'm 80% recovered(ish) now but still have issues. Feel free to say what you like but I'd prefer if you don't poke fun at it - trillions of animals suffer horrendously each year, as do our war victims and the orphans we create - my decision to now boycott animal harm and exploitation is based on severely traumatic personal events. I use VeganPete as a nickname to remind myself of pacifism and to distance myself from the past - and use martial arts, digital art, meditation (binaural beats), music-making and game-development as a distraction tactic to fill the hours when I'm home alone. I hope you can respect my choices. Thanks for understanding el-bo (I know it was intended a joke so no hard feelings). All the best.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> I doubt it - animal cruelty has nothing to do with my files being deleted.
> 
> Of course, I understand that people like to poke fun and post gif memes but I became vegan after a military tour of Iraq (burning human flesh smells like cooked meat). I was injured and had to be cas-evacced home with a broken back. Shortly after I returned, my daughter passed away with Turners Syndrome and I started to suffer from PTSD and had hallucinations and flashbacks. i was forced to leave the military on medical grounds and after being unemployed, my wife divorced me. Luckilly I survived a suicide attempt- but eating meat was a huge problem because it mades me vomit and the smell triggered flashbacks. After months of reccurring nightmares of death, I decided to go Veggie back in 2003 and then vegan in 2009. I would say I'm 80% recovered now but still have issues. Feel free to say what you like but I'd prefer if you don't poke fun at it - trillions of animals suffer horrendously each year, as do our war victims and the orphans we create - my decision to now boycott animal harm and exploitation is based on severely traumatic personal events. I hope you can respect my choices. Thanks for understanding el-bo


Fuck, man! I'm truly, truly sorry.

I was joking, but absolutely not poking fun. I've just passed my 3rd vegan-niversary (And yes, motivated by a stand against animal cruelty and exploitation), and just thought a little joke (seemingly at your expense) would serve as a funny ice-breaker. I thought you'd lightly berate me, I'd reveal I was kidding and that i was inspired that you were prepared to wear your vegan-ness brazenl in public, and then all would be good with the world...

That fucking backfired...

I'm so sad to hear your story, man...and just so sorry...


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 4, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> meditation (binaural beats)


Anything specific you'd recommend to make it easier to get started? I've had best intentions of picking up meditation for years, but I just... can't... yet.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Apr 4, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Anything specific you'd recommend to make it easier to get started? I've had best intentions of picking up meditation for years, but I just... can't... yet.


Have you tried second-person visualisation audio? It's a bit like shallow hypnosis, with a voice talking you through a relaxing journey, often with issue-specific scenarios or visualisations. I've mostly found these on YouTube, but I don't know if there is a generic name for them. (A search for ASMR, which is completely different, often seems to bring these up).


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Have you tried second-person visualisation audio? It's a bit like shallow hypnosis, with a voice talking you through a relaxing journey, often with issue-specific scenarios or visualisations. I've mostly found these on YouTube, but I don't know if there is a generic name for them. (A search for ASMR, which is completely different, often seems to bring these up).


Its called the ALF seasons.


----------



## Bee_Abney (Apr 4, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Its called the ALF seasons.


Alien Life Form ALF?


----------



## Crowe (Apr 4, 2022)

@el-bo I'm mostly vegan too and you're more than welcome to make fun of me to get your kicks in, no worries.

I'm fully convinced being able to joke about something is the road to acceptance.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> Thanks el-bo - I do appreciate the ice-breaker, lol. Really though - please don't feel bad at all, it's been a really crazy story so far but I'm in a happy place almost 99% of the time. Congrats on your veganism. Yeah, I'm openly brazen and I'm sure it can get extremely annoying for other people at times.


Thanks for understanding, and also for your veganism. Your story is heart-breaking, but your outlook is inspiring.

Glad we're back in step


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Have you tried second-person visualisation audio? It's a bit like shallow hypnosis, with a voice talking you through a relaxing journey, often with issue-specific scenarios or visualisations. I've mostly found these on YouTube, but I don't know if there is a generic name for them. (A search for ASMR, which is completely different, often seems to bring these up).


Visualization is powerful, i do it almost every day. To master it, you should speak out what you see to externalize it. Without speaking it out, your verbal brainside will not connect it to the visual and not forming the link to visually recreate it.
When the bridge has been formed, its really easy to imagine anything in clarity.
Those details….


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> @el-bo I'm mostly vegan too and you're more than welcome to make fun of me to get your kicks in, no worries.
> 
> I'm fully convinced being able to joke about something is the road to acceptance.


Thanks, man! But that's all the 'excitement' i can handle for a while. But way to go on making some positive changes


----------



## Bee_Abney (Apr 4, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Visualization is powerful, i do it almost every day. To master it, you should speak out what you see to externalize it. Without speaking it out, your verbal brainside will not connect it to the visual and not forming the link to visually recreate it.
> When the bridge has been formed, its really easy to imagine anything in clarity.
> Those details….


That's helpful, thanks. Yes, whole brain engagement really helps.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I'm fully convinced being able to joke about something is the road to acceptance.


Laughter is *EVERYTHING*!


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> @el-bo I'm mostly vegan too and you're more than welcome


Did you really wrote „mostly“? Im in shock
and would like to discuss it infinitely.


el-bo said:


> Laughter is *EVERYTHING*!


But knowing the exceptions when laughing is not socially compatible can be funny too, especially when ranked Vegans are present.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Yes. I'm against all most forms of extremism.


Thats pretty extreme to say.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Yes. I'm against all most forms of extremism.


Do you really think veganism is extreme?


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I generally do not agree with this, if only because everything you say will offend *someone*. I'm offended by certain stuff too, but I generally believe that's my problem, not anyone else's, if only because I'm usually sure there's a viewpoint in which I'm possibly wrong.


I better not tell my friend that he smells weird then. If he feels offended, its his problem, or was it his smell in the first place. Am i sensible enough choosing the right words, or is it a matter of belief?
I better quit this wonky friendship.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> But knowing the exceptions when laughing is not socially compatible can be funny too, especially when ranked Vegans are present.


What do you mean?


----------



## AceAudioHQ (Apr 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Just brainstorming here, but do you think it might be because you're a vegan?


You're not alone, this was my first thought also, I just didn't want to say it since I knew it might backfire :>


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Do you really think veganism is extreme?


Its extremely expensive i found out. That counts enough for me to be a level below.


----------



## Crowe (Apr 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Do you really think veganism is extreme?


That was a joke. Sorta.

I kinda think most reasons for hardline veganism go too far and lose touch with the reality of nature and existence. Lots of spiritually-based reasoning, talk about the nature of cruelty etc. I also cannot stand the moral superiority of many vegans (I no longer frequent vegan-conventions for this reason).

I find that relativism is healthy and that there are exceptions to everything. I don't like saying I quit smoking either. I just don't usually smoke anymore.



Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Its extremely expensive i found out. That counts enough for me to be a level below.


This is very true and baffles me every time. Though not as much as the ridiculous amount of things that have dairy in them for no real reason.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> That's not at all what I said. You should probably tell your friend that he smells weird, offended or not. My partner tells me when I need a shower, too. If I'm offended by that, maybe I should reassess my priorities.


Just too bad we treat strangers not as family. Id like to gift a smelly subway stranger some perfume now. Could be less offensive than saying it or making gestures.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Its extremely expensive i found out. That counts enough for me to be a level below.


It can be expensive if you always eat out or always have to have all the meat and cheese replacements. But it needn’t be:


----------



## Crowe (Apr 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> It can be expensive if you always eat out or always have to have all the meat and cheese replacements. But if you can use a knife and know how to move things around a pan that has some form of heat underneath it, it can be the cheapest food on the planet. I can get all my energy needs on 60 cents, a day. Another 40 gets my protein covered. And if I wanna tick off most of my RDA, I can do so with another dollar



I think they were talking about vegan-tax on those products that have vegan variations. Like if there's a product that's specifically vegan that's another 20% on top of the price even if it makes no sense.

But yeah if you just eat grass that's pretty cheap living I've found.

EDIT: Damnit I just can't help myself can I.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> It can be expensive if you always eat out or always have to have all the meat and cheese replacements. But it needn’t be:



Who has time to cook nowadays? Except for a cook. And im lazy. Worst combination as egg and bacon for a vegan.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I think they were talking about vegan-tax on those products that have vegan variations. Like if there's a product that's specifically vegan that's another 20% on top of the price even if it makes no sense.
> 
> But yeah if you just eat grass that's pretty cheap living I've found.
> 
> EDIT: Damnit I just can't help myself can I.


Things here are different now. Shelves are getting empty, i take whats cheap. :(


----------



## sostenuto (Apr 4, 2022)

Tough to try that grass when local dogs, cats, skunks, et al .... visit daily.

Frequent PBS videos remind of nature horrors inflicted on many peaceful beings routinely.
Massive hurt, respect, concern for for all who protect us.
So many other innocents harmed, unceasingly, in unimaginable ways.

Healthy oldheimer here _ enjoy and appreciate amazing array of wonderful food items.
Freedom to choose is incredible ! 🙏🏻


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Who has time to cook nowadays? Except for a cook. And im lazy. Worst combination as egg and bacon for a vegan.


So th eissue is you're lazy and/or have no time to cook...not that vegan food is extremely expensive? The food i make is very tasty. I cook in bulk, but it probably averages out to about 15 minutes, per-day.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> That was a joke. Sorta.
> 
> I kinda think most reasons for hardline veganism go too far and lose touch with the reality of nature and existence. Lots of spiritually-based reasoning, talk about the nature of cruelty etc. I also cannot stand the moral superiority of many vegans (I no longer frequent vegan-conventions for this reason).


You do you, boo. You don't think vegans should make woo-woo bullshit arguments, be a vegan who doesn't make those arguments. You don't want to be a vegan who acts all morally superior, be a vegan who doesn't do that. You can be the vegan you want to see 

I've also unsubscribed to most of the vegan channels i used to follow, and have had to leave the Reddit vegan forums, due to my feelings about how other vegans act, speak etc. But I have sovereignty over my own actions. It matters not what those other vegans say or do. I only have myself with whom to reconcile my actions, and I'm not gonna change my own personal ethics out of a need to distance myself from the throng...or conversely, to fit in with the rest of the world.

I've seen too much of the hideous footage. I am familiar with all the arguments, good and bad...for or against. Paying for animal products is not a direct vote for abuse and atrocities, but that's the unfortunate result. I don't see wanting no part of that as extreme.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> So th eissue is you're lazy and/or have no time to cook...not that vegan food is extremely expensive? The food i make is very tasty. I cook in bulk, but it probably averages out to about 15 minutes, per-day.


Expensive in terms of availability. I cant plan ahead much because of prices varying a lot. Surely i cook, mostly korean. Time is a factor and preparing food is just something that’s depressing for me.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Expensive in terms of availability. I cant plan ahead much because of prices varying a lot. Surely i cook, mostly korean. Time is a factor and preparing food is just something that’s depressing for me.


I get it. But the advantages of home-cooking aren't just the preserve of vegans. If you can just get your head round a little bit of planning-ahead, it's easy to have a lot of easy, tasty and healthy food on-hand, that in the end takes less time per-day, on average

As for depressing...I hear that. I share a flat with 3 other meat-eaters. As such, the kitchen is a very hostile environment for me. To minimise my time in that space, i bulk cook. Works out to be pretty easy, when you get into a rhythm.


----------



## Crowe (Apr 4, 2022)

I don't understand. If you're vegan you *know* that everything that's made as a vegan variant is more expensive. Why do you deny this? Every vegan I've ever talked to knows this to be the case. Even if the price if potatoes and cucumber are the same for everyone, we're not talking about that. The dietary supplements on their own are crazy expensive. Veganism is not the simple, cheap matter you proclaim it to be.

EDIT: Simply put, the way vegan products are marked up is pretty criminal if you ask me.

We've gone so far off topic it's not even funny.


----------



## b_elliott (Apr 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> I get it. But the advantages of home-cooking aren't just the preserve of vegans. If you can just get your head round a little bit of planning-ahead, it's easy to have a lot of easy, tasty and healthy food on-hand, that in the end takes less time per-day, on average


Not to drive this thread off the rails, but a time saver I learned from a working mother, was to cook one day a week. She cooked/prepped for the family on a Sunday, then stored in fridge. 
For me, I adapted her bright idea via a slow cooker: 6-vegtables soup. Lasts a week for one person (me). Does not handle all my meals, but sure cuts down on time in the kitchen.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I don't understand. If you're vegan you *know* that everything that's made as a vegan variant is more expensive. Why do you deny this?


Not denying anything. Vegan variants cost more, no doubt. what I AM saying is that they aren't necessary for a healthy vegan diet. My current diet is centred around potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, pasta, beans, legumes, tofu, tvp, fruits and veggies. I estimate it costs me 2 Euros, per-day




Crowe said:


> The dietary supplements on their own are crazy expensive.


I supplement D3, B12 and occasionally pop a multi. Per year, we're talking a maximum of 50 Euros, which works out at probably around 15 cents, per-day.



Crowe said:


> Veganism is not the simple, cheap matter you proclaim it to be.


"Simple" is a relative concept. But it can certainly be cheap



Crowe said:


> EDIT: Simply put, the way vegan products are marked up is pretty criminal if you ask me.


Depends on the product. Vegan alternatives usually can't benefit from huge economies of scale. Demand needs to keep rising for prices to fall. You also have to take into account how heavily subsidised the animal agriculture industries are. Governments are paying billions to bring down the prices of meat and dairy, so it's relative cheapness is just an illusion, propped up on taxpayers money. If the price of the spoils of animal agriculture were truly allowed to reflect the prices of the resources needed to produce them, meat would be relegated to luxury status.

Ultimately, the more options that are available, the more competitively-priced they'll become. but even now, if one avoids the big name brands, there are many products that are available that present good value as an occasional treat.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 4, 2022)

b_elliott said:


> Not to drive this thread off the rails, but a time saver I learned from a working mother, was to cook one day a week. She cooked/prepped for the family on a Sunday, then stored in fridge.
> For me, I adapted her bright idea via a slow cooker: 6-vegtables soup. Lasts a week for one person (me). Does not handle all my meals, but sure cuts down on time in the kitchen.


Thanks! 

Yeah, I already do this. 

I tend to bulk cook a couple a couple of sauces on a couple of occasions a month. These go to filling a freezer draw of easily-defrosted portions (This month, it's veg-curry and chop-suey). Then, every 3-4 days, I cook enough potatoes, rice pasta and roti to last the next few days. So on a daily basis, I really just defrost, plate, heat and eat. Add in overnight-oats, cutting up fruit and easy-made sandwiches and it all starts to move along like a well-oiled machine 

but thanks for the idea of soup. Not had it in a long time


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 4, 2022)

Lets not get too hot headed over this! I know this topic is a difficult one with very strongly held beliefs and sometimes near religious zeal on both sides of the argument, but please lets at least try to be civil about it, ok? I don't want this ending up in the drama zone, as I think some good information is being shared here. I'm trying my best not to be judgemental, even though what some of you do seems crazy to me, and I know for what I'm about to say some of you likely will think I'm an absolute monster, but ultimately we all have to follow our concience or proceed as nature intended it and live with the consequences. I simply do not believe it to be right to reinstall windows for every little hickup, and I have the near 13 year old install of windows seven, from which I am writing this post, to back it up. Even when changing the entire hardware I kept using the same install and maintained it through the good times and the bad times. It is called an operating system for a reason, let it freely operate, let it live, breathe, and lead a proper life of its own!

But if you feel differently that's ok and just as valid. You do you! We all have to come to peace with our own decisions and ultimately there is no objective moral right or wrong on this matter. 

PEACE!


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 5, 2022)

A vegan is just someone who decides to abstain from animal cruelty - it's no more expensive/cheaper or easier/difficult than any other lifestyle choice. Food has become the obvious focus, but diet is really only a small part of veganism. I guess the thinking behind it is similar to watching the "Blood Diamond" movie and then deciding to abstain from buying Diamonds but obviously most people are still tempted, despite knowing the cruelty behind the industry - sadly, that's just part of humanity.


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 5, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Anything specific you'd recommend to make it easier to get started? I've had best intentions of picking up meditation for years, but I just... can't... yet.


The quickest and easiest introduction to meditation is to sit comfortably in a dimly lit room, light a tea-light candle and set it on a table infront of you, smile gently at the candle and stare at the flame, become aware of your breathing, do not ever set yourself a time-limit (effective meditation sessions can be really short or long sessions or intermittent - your mindset is literally creating the experience for you - so stay positive, even if you feel the session is being "interrupted" externally), just sit and smile at the flame, allow thoughts to come and go - just observe, don't control them. Do this regularly, then to bring that feeling back any time (after regular practice), it's enough just image sitting and smiling at the flame. Some individuals can have some profound experiences when meditating, so be prepared for the occasional flashes or unexpected visions - these are "normal".

Contrary to popular belief, you can meditate anywhere and for any length of time, you don't need a quiet, peaceful, safe place where you are unlikely to be interrupted. You can do it anywhere - in fact, it's most needed when you're in a noisy, stressful, unsafe place. Over time, it will become a pleasant and deeply relaxing experience. If you have a Buddhist center or a Yoga practitioner near you, some martial arts also teach meditation - each will probably be able to teach you their own method for free/donation but the candle is super easy and there are many different guides across the internet. There isn't really a best method - whatever suits you - just, once you start, do it regularly for best results.

As for binaural beats, they offer an easy/automatic method (requires stereo headphones) or isochronic tones (works in mono), basically you just sit and listen to sounds/music. Please don't listen whilst driving/operating machinery or otherwise doing something which requires your full attention. I would recommend looking into SBAgen (to make the binaural sounds) or Audacity plugin (to make isochronic chirp sounds). A binaural beat has 2 parts, (a carrier and a signal). The ear can hear only a small spectrum of energy/sound - meditation occurs when the frequency of brain activity falls outside of these sound/energy frequencies (either above or below). Both isochronic and binaural beats can be effective. There is also magnetic resonance headbands which use pulsed magnetism to entrain the brain and there are also LED glasses which rapidly pulse lights across the closed eyes (these are very effective and can be combined with the audio).

You can make a homemade "Ancient-Egyptian meditation device" by cutting a dinner-plate-sized cardboard disc, cut several slots from the centre to the edge, poke a stick through the middle andtapeit to the disk, sit/lie (with closed eyes!) with your face facing towards the sun. Shade your face by holding the disk over you and twirl the stick with your hand. The slots will block/pass the sunlight onto your eyes and create a deeply relaxed state - you can adjust the frequency of the pulses by controlling the speed of the twirl - not an exact science, but you can use your own cognitive/organic feedback as to what feels best for you.

In order for to "entrain" the brain to these meditative frequencies, using sounds (which normally cannot be heard), we can use a special technique also discovered in ancient times. We create 2 slightly different frequencies - one in the left ear, one in the right. The subtle difference between these 2 different frequencies is resonated loudly in (by) the brain. Example: Left ear 100Hz, Right ear 102Hz - brain vibrates loudly at 2Hz. These sounds (which cannot normally be heard) are resonated strongly in the head as a pulsating bass sine-wave. They are so strong that the brain's activity gradually maps itself to the new frequency.

Certain brain frequencies are present during certain mental/physical activities - it is thought (through 30 years of research at the Monroe Institute) that we can reverse-engineer these physical and mental attributes by stimulating the mind at these particular frequencies. Science commonly accepts several bands of brain activity (states of consciousness) Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta, Gamma. There are others. They are distinctly categorised for sleep, relaxation, wakefulness, physical exertion, fear, hyper-allertive etc, etc.

In therapy, if we are hyperactive or in fear, we can use binaural beats to calm a subject down. If you are fatigued, we can ramp brain activity to perform better in sport etc.

To get the most out of the sounds, there is a theory called the "Oster Curve" which picks the "best" match between carrier and signal frequencies. In practice, you can be your own judge as to what works and what doesn't.

A final pointer is to find a list of cymatic frequencies. It sounds airy-fairy but a lot of research has been done into how audio affects physical and mental activity/wellness. In fact chanting, music and singing is a prime example of utilizing these frequencies (as chords/chorus) where resonating sounds create sofeggio frequencies.

The most important thing to remember is that while it is "scientific", it's best to explore it for yourself. Listen to how your body feel/responds as a guide to which frequencies are best. If you feel happy and relaxed, you can be sure it's worth listening to - if a particular frequency makes you fell aggitated or afraid, presonally I would skip it - depends what kind of meditative experience you're looking for.

If you don't fancy making your own, there are hundreds of pre-made recordings which are very nice to listen to and there are a few other apps (for tablets/phones) with pre-made settings (such as i-doser).

Here's SBAgen...
SBaGen -- Binaural Beat Brain Wave Experimenter's Lab

Here's the list of cymatics I use as a guide...
Brainwave/Cymatic Frequency Listing

Here's the Oster theory (I find it does actually work)...





Understanding The Oster Curve by Dr Gerald Oster​The Oster Curve was developed by Dr Gerald Oster as a way of demonstrating optimal carrier frequencies for binaural beats. Let us explain.



www.binauralbeatsmeditation.com

Here's an ambient mixer (to make background music for the beats)...












Sounds mixes from user VeganPete







user.ambient-mixer.com




Here's the Monroe Institute:
Experiential Expanded Consciousness Meditation Programs and Research​The world's premiere organization for the study of human consciousness. Offering residential mediation retreats, online courses and research programs for the study of expanded states of consciousness using audio supported guided meditations. Access expanded states of conscious with Robert...
www.monroeinstitute.org

Here's a book which mentions "Gateway Experiences"...
The Ultimate Journey : Robert A. Monroe : 9780385472081​The Ultimate Journey by Robert A. Monroe, 9780385472081, available at Book Depository with free delivery worldwide.



www.bookdepository.com

Here's a decent binaural beat to alleviate back-pain...


Here's i-Doser...








I-Doser: Digital Doses


I-Doser helps you simulate a mood or experience on any device




i-doser.com





Here's the Hemi-Sync CD collection...




__





HemiSync – Binaural Beat Brainwave CDs – patented alternative therapies from Hemi-Sync – Monroe Products







hemi-sync.com





I also have hundreds of professional CD recordings of binaural beats and some guided meditations. I can take time to upload them to my G-Drive and give access to anyone if interested in DM.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 5, 2022)

Aah...A thread split! Nice


----------



## el-bo (Apr 5, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> [...]it's no more[...]easier/difficult than any other lifestyle choice.


I agree and disagree. In terms of the actually food part, I find it pretty easy. Every so often, I have a craving that's triggered by some memory or other. I still love the smell of certain cooked animal-products, though I have an immediate stomach-churning reaction to seeing meat...especially if it's raw (You should see the circuitous routes I take to navigate my way around the various dead-flesh sections of supermarkets   ) But I find the rare cravings to be no different to craving triggers i occasionally experience that accompany memories of my drug-taking past. Such is the deep hard-wiring of the brain. But fortunately, those moments are brief and fleeting.

I sometimes find the availability (or not) of some foods to be frustrating. Entering a supermarket with a hankering for a bar of chocolate, only to read the labels of 20 packets, and ending up going home empty-handed get's old pretty quickly. Where I live is not particularly vegan-friendly, though it is getting better. Fortunately, I know all the places where I can go for specific things. 

For me, the difficulty comes from living as a vegan in a non-vegan world. It's a continual challenges, and not of the kind to get excited about. I think it's ultimately what breaks many of even the most dedicated vegans, so that they just say, "Fuck it!" and opt for a simpler life :(


----------



## el-bo (Apr 5, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> The quickest and easiest introduction to meditation is to sit comfortably in a dimly lit room, light a tea-light candle and set it on a table infront of you, smile gently at the candle and stare at the flame, become aware of your breathing, do not ever set yourself a time-limit (effective meditation sessions can be really short or long sessions or intermittent - your mindset is literally creating the experience for you - so stay positive, even if you feel the session is being "interrupted" externally), just sit and smile at the flame, allow thoughts to come and go - just observe, don't control them. Do this regularly, then to bring that feeling back any time (after regular practice), it's enough just image sitting and smiling at the flame. Some individuals can have some profound experiences when meditating, so be prepared for the occasional flashes or unexpected visions - these are "normal".
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, you can meditate anywhere and for any length of time, you don't need a quiet, peaceful, safe place where you are unlikely to be interrupted. You can do it anywhere - in fact, it's most needed when you're in a noisy, stressful, unsafe place. Over time, it will become a pleasant and deeply relaxing experience. If you have a Buddhist center or a Yoga practitioner near you, some martial arts also teach meditation - each will probably be able to teach you their own method for free/donation but the candle is super easy and there are many different guides across the internet. There isn't really a best method - whatever suits you - just, once you start, do it regularly for best results.
> 
> ...



A great primer 

You mentioned Bhuddist centres. I wonder...Have you ever sat a Vipassana course?


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 5, 2022)

I'm not Buddhist, I have a friend who is a Buddhist and I did sit one of their meditation courses at a Triratna Center. I'm am dedicated to Shorinryu (少林), although I wasn't ever taught Shinto directly, it's something which inextricably entwines itself with the training and thinking. Personally I would say I'm not religious at all but I do respect and understand certain aspects of some religions.


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 5, 2022)

Also..."3D autostereograms" stimulate Alpha waves in the Cerebral cortex when you view in 3D - which is the same activity as when dreaming and has an immediate meditative effect. It can take a while to learn to see them but definitely worth it if you;ve never tried before...


----------



## wahey73 (Apr 5, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> Also..."3D autostereograms" stimulate Alpha waves in the Cerebral cortex when you view in 3D - which is the same activity as when dreaming and has an immediate meditative effect. It can take a while to learn to see them but definitely worth it if you;ve never tried before...


THANK YOU! What a flashback.....I had (have, just need to find it) a wonderful book many many years back full of those 3D autostereograms. You are right, it might take some time to see them, but then....i spent hours and hours with that book. This evening at home I will look for it to present it to my children. Completely forgot about it


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 5, 2022)

wahey73 said:


> THANK YOU! What a flashback.....I had (have, just need to find it) a wonderful book many many years back full of those 3D autostereograms. You are right, it might take some time to see them, but then....i spent hours and hours with that book. This evening at home I will look for it to present it to my children. Completely forgot about it


Awesome! You;re welcome. Me too - I forget about them periodically and then randomly rediscover them years later. They're amazing things really but way to easy to take them for granted.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 5, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> I'm not Buddhist, I have a friend who is a Buddhist and I did sit one of their meditation courses at a Triratna Center. I'm am dedicated to Shorinryu (少林), although I wasn't ever taught Shinto directly, it's something which inextricably entwines itself with the training and thinking. Personally I would say I'm not religious at all but I do respect and understand certain aspects of some religions.


Didn't think you were Buddhist, per se. Just thought you might've tried sat a meditation course (They're often non-denominational).

Hadn't heard of Shorinryu before. Will check it out


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 5, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> Also..."3D autostereograms" stimulate Alpha waves in the Cerebral cortex when you view in 3D - which is the same activity as when dreaming and has an immediate meditative effect. It can take a while to learn to see them but definitely worth it if you;ve never tried before...


I always cross my eyes and win those games with it. Cheating.


----------



## Robert_G (Apr 5, 2022)

Here are a couple of statistical facts on being Vegan.
80% completely give it before 2 years are done.
98% admit to cheating multiple times in the first year alone.

Our bodies are not designed to eat ZERO animal products in our diet.


----------



## Quasar (Apr 5, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Here are a couple of statistical facts on being Vegan.
> 80% completely give it before 2 years are done.
> 98% admit to cheating multiple times in the first year alone.
> 
> Our bodies are not designed to eat ZERO animal products in our diet.


Anecdotally, in my experience most (not all) aspiring vegans go through a phase and then give it up, so these stats ring true.

I do not eat eat the flesh of dead animals, ever, and haven't for many years. But I concluded a long time ago that being an ovo-lacto vegetarian is simple, inexpensive and you don't have to be fussy about what you eat. Vegans, on the other hand, have to be quite fussy about what they eat, and the whole thing strikes me as rather self-indulgent, a privilege that only the affluent can afford. I'm not a "foodie" who gets preoccupied over what I eat. I'm just grateful to have food to eat...

...And besides, I've tried them all, and there is no such thing as a non-dairy creamer that works for a cup of coffee. All of the almond-this and soy or coconut-that are okay for cereal, but for coffee they are complete crap.


----------



## Robert_G (Apr 5, 2022)

Quasar said:


> But I concluded a long time ago that being an ovo-lacto vegetarian is simple, inexpensive and you don't have to be fussy about what you eat. Vegans, on the other hand, have to be quite fussy about what they eat


Agreed. I think your diet is much more attainable then being an all-in vegan.
As for me, I'll be dead before I give up steak, burgers, prime rib, pulled pork, baby back ribs, and deep fried chicken, etc, etc.


----------



## tressie5 (Apr 5, 2022)

Interesting side topic. I wanted to chime in because I'm vegan m'self. I did it because I follow (mostly) the tenets of Jainism, I had serious health issues, and I'm against animal cruelty. And as regards meditation: because I also suffer from PTSD, Bipolar Disorder and I'm autistic, it's impossible for me to sit in one spot for mindfulness. That little critter in my brain I call Lizard Boy, my super hyperactive hypervigilant amygdala, prevents me from slowing down unless I'm drinking. And I stopped drinking a year ago. Hell, I also haven't watched a movie in a year simply for the fact I can't sit on the couch for that long period of time doing nothing.


----------



## CATDAD (Apr 5, 2022)

I think "soft" veganism is underrated. Many of the issues surrounding animal products, both morally and environmentally, stem from trying to push volume of these products up, and cost down. If most people merely reduced their consumption/support of these products instead of playing "all-or-nothing", it would go much further than trying to convince everyone to just stop cold turkey, with a magnifying glass on ingredients and materials.

Think about this: if 2 people reduced their use of animal products by 50%, it would be the same outcome as a single person cutting any and all of them out of their life. Which of these 2 scenarios do you think is easier to commit to?

Now when it comes to material goods, veganism can be tricky too. If you make something out of plastics instead of animal-based products, and it had a fraction of the durability, what kind of impact does that have on the environment? (and thus the well-being of all the creatures of the earth?) And who is making these items? What's the point of reducing the suffering of other animals if human cruelty is still involved? It's a lot to think about.

It's also important to understand that full veganism is a privilege, and isn't practical or possible in all corners of the world.

I'm generally vegan, but if someone hands me a muffin and I don't know if it has milk in it, I'm going to gladly accept and eat it. If I go to a restaurant I wont order a beef hamburger, but if I find out my side of soup has a beef broth in it I'm not going to lose my shit. If I were to travel somewhere and there just aren't any vegan food options, I'll deal with it and make sure I eat comfortably for the short time I'm there. It doesn't undo all of my previous reductions. I have probably reduced my use of animal products to something like 5-10% of the average person. Imagine a world where most people did that?

If you want to promote veganism, you should lead by example to encourage people to reduce, rather than eliminate entirely. You can't cause a huge societal shift overnight, and you have to allow others to choose for themselves, lest they resist from too much pressure.

tl;dr - 2 people reducing their animal products by 50% is the same as one person being strictly vegan, and it's a much easier lifestyle to sell


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 5, 2022)

CATDAD said:


> tl;dr - 2 people reducing their animal products by 50% is the same as one person being strictly vegan, and it's a much easier lifestyle to sell


I think there may be a flaw in your mathematical reasoning....

If 2 murderers were to reduce their serial killings by 50%, that's not "the same" as someone who never kills. The 2 murderers at 50% capacity could potentially be killing thousands of people a year, where-as the pacifists are killing no-one.

It's definitely not the same.

That said, two meat-reducers (at 50% capacity) do not equate to one person being Vegan.

In addition to that, "diet" is only one part of veganism (which is multifaceted).
Non-vegans almost always assume that veganism is a type of diet - veganism is not a diet...

Narrated by Joaquin Phoenix, Music by Moby.


----------



## CATDAD (Apr 5, 2022)

VeganPete said:


> I think there may be a flaw in your mathematical reasoning....
> 
> If 2 murders were to reduce their serial killings by 50%, that's not "the same" as someone who never kills.
> 
> ...


I disagree with the comparison. You are not killing the animals you are using. You are causing them to suffer indirectly by reinforcing a demand for a product that is created by killing them. Decreasing the demand decreases the suffering, as well as the environmental impact. It's also easier to convince someone to stay 100% vegan later if they've already been, say, vegetarian for many years, than stripping all of their habits and comforts away at once, have them think "this is just too hard" and fully go back.

Moreover, if I could change my lifestyle in such a way that would cause a murderer to kill only half as many people in their lifetime, I absolutely would, and wouldn't think "well this doesn't matter, I may as well have let them kill all of them".

Though I think perhaps you are speaking more from the perspective of an individual's morality, while I am speaking for a pragmatic solution to reduce overall suffering and environmental damage.


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 5, 2022)

CATDAD said:


> I disagree with the comparison. You are not killing the animals you are using. You are causing them to suffer indirectly by reinforcing a demand for a product that is created by killing them.
> 
> Moreover, if I could change my lifestyle in such a way that would cause a murderer to kill only half as many people in their lifetime, I absolutely would.
> 
> I think perhaps you are speaking more from the perspective of an individual's morality, while I am speaking for a pragmatic solution to reduce overall suffering and environmental damage.


Yes, I'm speaking more about the perspective of morality but the comparison stands whichever way you choose to look at it.

Agreed. The fact that people don't have to kill the animals themselves is probably the main reason it continues to grow on such a scale behind closed doors (2 thousand mammals killed every second, 2.3 trillion fish killed every year, including 100 million sharks - just so a privileged minority can eat meat).

If you would absolutely change your lifestyle to reduce 50% of those murders - you understand why vegans find it preferable to boycott of 100% of those murders.


----------



## CATDAD (Apr 6, 2022)

Agreed that the fact people don't see, torture, or kill the animals themselves helps keeps them comfortable.

I do understand that all is more than some. That being accessory to murder is still murder, and killing less still makes you a killer. But large-scale change takes time, and radical change makes people dig their heels in deeper. The kind of person who is compassionate and dedicated enough to live truly vegan is going to do that regardless; the rest of modern society needs to be massaged in to it. If they didn't, they'd be vegan already.

Accessibility matters when you want to make a large cultural shift. Otherwise you risk turning the others in to your enemy, and they will no longer listen to what you have to say.


----------



## MartinH. (Apr 6, 2022)

Crowe said:


> I also cannot stand the moral superiority of many vegans


I can relate, but I think you're missing out if you eat vegan/healthy and don't feel at least a little superior or at least proud of yourself. 




CATDAD said:


> I think "soft" veganism is underrated.


I think so too, but from a slightly different angle. To make vegan products competitive the demand needs to scale up first. I've been drastically reducing my meat consumption for a couple of years already and I know other non-vegetarians are doing this as well. And while we do that the vegetarian/vegan sections in our local supermarkets are ever increasing in both size and quality. A few of the meat replacement products are so close now that it's getting hard to tell the difference. Ideally we should aim to make them _better_ than real meat, which I don't think is entirely unrealistic.
I heard one of the big brands for meat based products in Germany has plans to shift to 100% vegetarian products fairly soon. And apparantly the "lab grown meat" isn't that far away either. The tech is there, they just need to find ways to produce it cheap enough to have a chance on the market (and maybe safety trials, I don't know about that aspect). I think theoretically that tech should be able to create lab grown leather one day as well.




tressie5 said:


> Interesting side topic. I wanted to chime in because I'm vegan m'self. I did it because I follow (mostly) the tenets of Jainism, I had serious health issues, and I'm against animal cruelty. And as regards meditation: because I also suffer from PTSD, Bipolar Disorder and I'm autistic, it's impossible for me to sit in one spot for mindfulness. That little critter in my brain I call Lizard Boy, my super hyperactive hypervigilant amygdala, prevents me from slowing down unless I'm drinking. And I stopped drinking a year ago. Hell, I also haven't watched a movie in a year simply for the fact I can't sit on the couch for that long period of time doing nothing.


Have you tried Yoga? Or doing a mindful version of lifting weights or running? I don't think there's a real reason why you'd need to sit still to get any benefits from meditation.




VeganPete said:


> do not ever set yourself a time-limit (effective meditation sessions can be really short or long sessions or intermittent - your mindset is literally creating the experience for you - so stay positive, even if you feel the session is being "interrupted" externally)


Thanks so much for your super detailed and thoughtful reply! I think this part about not setting time limits may be the key for me, as I naturally recoil from any kind of schedule or regular commitment, and have never been able to stick with anything like that longterm. 

You covered so much, I'll have to spread out my reply accross several posts as I check out all those links. I've seen a huberman labs episode recently, where he talked a bit about binaural beats: 


I find all neuroscience stuff interesting and briefly tried both binaural beats and solfeggio frequencies many years ago when there was a thread about them on another forum. Some people seem to react intensely to them, but for me they didn't seem to do anything. I'm running "focus-12-a" right now from SBaGen and it sounds a lot different than what I thought binaural beats sound like. So far I always only looked up the frequencies for left and right ear, generated them in reaper with a plugin, and hard panned them left and right. I wanted to make sure I get the right frequencies as pure sinewaves and nothing else. The frequencies that I tried were a lot less pleasant that what I hear from SBaGen right now. This sounds more like a chord and the low frequency pulse that I hear is much more subtle.

The main thing I'm asking myself is, "does it really have to be binaural and annoying or could this just be music centered around a certain frequency?". I don't doubt the studies that found certain binaural beats to produce certain outcomes on tasks, however I wonder if enough research has been done on monaural equivalents. I didn't look for long yet, but there seem to be studies that show positive effects from monaural beats as well. And that got me thinking that perhaps there are tangible neuroscience implications to compositional note choices. It's not news that some music has for example calming effects on people, and I've noticed that myself too in genres where you wouldn't necessarily expect it. There's a blackmetal band that I just find super relaxing every time I listen to them. I can fall asleep to their music. And with other metal genres that make use of downtuned 8-string guitars and play the lowest open string a lot, I find that I have preferences for certain guitar tunings over others. I don't have perfect pitch hearing at all, but D# (38.89hz) or E (41.20hz) usually just feels better to me than F (43.65 hz). I see 40hz often mentioned in brainwave research and I wonder why that's such a conveniently round number. If you ever find a source that names a more precise frequency for this, let me know. Maybe I should try tuning my guitar to 40hz instead of a mainstream note pitch instead? Or just slow down the final mix to make E line up with 40hz. I do think a lot of the frequency topics are pseudoscience woowoo, but there absolutely should be more research to find the stuff that actually has tangible and predictable effects, so that they can be leveraged deliberately in music. 

Also I want to see future youtube playlists with titles like "40hz instrumental deathcore to study and chill to"


----------



## el-bo (Apr 6, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Here are a couple of statistical facts on being Vegan.
> 80% completely give it before 2 years are done.
> 98% admit to cheating multiple times in the first year alone.


That first statistic lumps vegetarians in with vegans, which I think muddies the results. Not heard the second statistic. Do you have any citations for it?

The thing to be aware of is that people are drawn to veganism for different reasons. Many come to it due to environmental reasons. Others treat it as any other diet i.e to lose weight. Some come for health reasons and there is a very large contingent of people who see it as a way of legitimising their restrictive eating-disorders.

In the case of any of the above, cheating or quitting is no big thing. If you're an environmentalist, scoffing a steak once a month makes no discernible difference. Those using veganism to lose weight can probably afford to plan semi-regular cheat-days into an effective weightloss plan. Same goes for health (Generally, it's what one does for the rest of the time that ill dictate health outcomes, and not the rare indiscretions). 

But if you became vegan for ethical reasons (Which, if we're being true to the actual definition, is the only way to be a vegan), there is no cheating. There are sometime accidents, unfortunately. But they become less and less as experience grows. 





Robert_G said:


> Our bodies are not designed to eat ZERO animal products in our diet.


Designed?

Are you actually a creationist, or is that just a turn-of-phrase?


----------



## VeganPete (Apr 6, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Have you tried Yoga? Or doing a mindful version of lifting weights or running? I don't think there's a real reason why you'd need to sit still to get any benefits from meditation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Meditation" is a catch-all term - it can take many forms - running, gardening, yoga, prayer, mantra, martial arts, etc. Meditation can become integrated in all things we do, you don't necessarily have to take time out to do it - as you say, a good run can clear your mind. My back is trashed so I stopped running and switched to a gentler exercise called Shorinryu - similar to TaiChi.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The problem with fringe sciences is that there are often no hard-and-fast rules to consistently get the same results, so they are often hard to research thoroughly and there are always mixed results. SBAgen offers a chorus of sounds which is very different to standard L/R binaural, the demo sounds you're listening to are still just sine-waves but they're from the Monroe institute research papers - they sound way better than any others I've heard.

I think the best approach for the mind is always exploratory - to try different things and see what works best for you. If it feels positive for you, with no obvious negative side-effects, go with it. Personally I don't think the sound frequencies can harm you - although it may be possible that certain music can lift or drop your mood - as you say guitars, vocals etc can trigger thoughts and plant seeds of ideas for the imagination to run wild with, this may ultimately lead to some physical consequence of action. There are military weapons (based on pulsing frequencies) which can harm, injure and even kill people but they are on a frequency outside human hearing - many magnitudes higher than anything a commercial binaural device can produce through headphones and they quickly sweep through the bands to attempt to create a rippling effect in the resonance/vibration. Fighter Pilots also used to pass out from just the vibrations of the airframe (caused by air turbulance) if they reached a certain frequency. Also the metal used for wings and cabins can weaken (and tear apart) at certain frequencies.

I think the idea of "sounds being centred around certain key frequencies" is the basis for music scales. Quite a few bassists detune guitars to get their own unique sounds and pump certain frequencies. There is also a theory that converting existing music (by pitch-shifting Note A4 from 440Hz down to 432Hz) can have a positive effect on the mind. Around half of people find it more preferable, the other half don't notice a difference. Personally, I think it often sounds better at 432Hz but I doubt that it's magically healing my mind. But then again... if music has the power to make you feel good, I guess it is somehow magically healing.

I think the only research that consistently shows how frequencies affect our body is cymatics research. Water molecules and our cells are a finite size and shape and can be made to interact with certain frequencies. There are many examples of cymatics but I'll make a video of water rotating clockwise and anticklockwise when I play different notes through my monitor speaker. Because of the physical response, the cymatic frequencies are easier for people to observe, catalogue and research. Sympathetic resonance is determined by the shape and density of the receptacle (not the transmitter) so if you change the size and density of an object, it will vibrate differently when hit with the same frequency. In humans, our water and cell density is consistent so the same broad frequency-bands will affect each person in the same way - I guess there will be subtle variations with smaller frequency changes depending on many individual factors.



One final relaxation device I would highly recommend (and totally forgot about) - is a small "singing bowl". You can get one really cheaply and it creates a pulsating isochronic tone which can (supposedly) entrain brain activity. The other reason it works is because you have to physically and continually move the striker around the bowl - the sound perfectly matches your movement so it's instantly meditative. It takes a bit of practice (you'll get the hang of it in less than 10 minutes) but it requires a little bit of concentration to keep the sound going and to keep the striker in contact with the bowl - this has the advantage of not falling asleep whilst meditating - it's also cool as f. when you hear the sound coming from it. Each bowl is a certain size/shape/material to create a different tone. The one I was gifted is palm-sized, so it's quite high-pitched and the striker folds up so you can carry it round in your pocket.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 6, 2022)

I have a bigger response to your response, but it might take a little while. Some of the points you've touched on make for a good entry-point to discuss the fundamental tenets of veganism.

But I'd be curious if you could expand on the points below. Firstly, why do you avoid eating meat, and, secondly, what is it about veganism that strikes you as self-indulgent?




Quasar said:


> I do not eat eat the flesh of dead animals, ever, and haven't for many years.





Quasar said:


> Vegans, on the other hand, have to be quite fussy about what they eat, and the whole thing strikes me as rather self-indulgent[...]


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 6, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> Interesting side topic. I wanted to chime in because I'm vegan m'self. I did it because I follow (mostly) the tenets of Jainism, I had serious health issues, and I'm against animal cruelty. And as regards meditation: because I also suffer from PTSD, Bipolar Disorder and I'm autistic, it's impossible for me to sit in one spot for mindfulness. That little critter in my brain I call Lizard Boy, my super hyperactive hypervigilant amygdala, prevents me from slowing down unless I'm drinking. And I stopped drinking a year ago. Hell, I also haven't watched a movie in a year simply for the fact I can't sit on the couch for that long period of time doing nothing.


Aww…i know that from somebody. I cant slow down at all and highs and downs change every minute. 
Thats one of the reason, im unable to do something relaxing as cooking. Without TV running or blasting music while cooking i would just get lost in optimizing every single detail. I couldn’t watch a movie without doing something else. Or just sit and think, or breathe.


----------



## Quasar (Apr 6, 2022)

el-bo said:


> I have a bigger response to your response, but it might take a little while. Some of the points you've touched on make for a good entry-point to discuss the fundamental tenets of veganism.
> 
> But I'd be curious if you could expand on the points below. Firstly, why do you avoid eating meat, and, secondly, what is it about veganism that strikes you as self-indulgent?


Since you asked, vegetarian mainly due to the violence of killing animals, the carbon footprint and the geopolitics of corporate land acquisition around the world disrupting local agriculture for the benefit of affluent first-world steak eaters.

I get that dairy farms can be quite abysmal, but they don't necessarily have to be, similar to the way working conditions for people may be terrible, but are not intrinsic to the concept of going to work, since those conditions can potentially be changed for the better. With meat, however, the act of killing is intrinsic, whether carried out in a relatively "humane" fashion or not.

I said self-indulgent because, where I live in the US at least, it's not possible to be vegan without paying an inordinate amount of attention to what you eat. If you're serious, you can't eat a peanut butter sandwich (as pointed out earlier) without checking to see if there is milk whey in the bread ingredients, and the vegan "alternatives" to common foods are virtually always far more expensive. The so-called coops and health food stores are little more than New Agey clip joints. Once the capitalists have gotten wind of a trend, it invariably devolves into just another marketing gimmick, exploited to augment rather than revolutionize the status quo.

Of all the fair weather, off-again-on-again vegans I have known, I do have one friend who's 100% committed and has sustained this practice for a long time, which is cool. She does, however, plan her grocery shopping and meals very carefully, spends a lot of time doing so (she enjoys thinking about and shopping for food) and spends much more money feeding herself and her husband than probably 90% of the population (including me) could afford, even if we wanted to.


----------



## Robert_G (Apr 6, 2022)

el-bo said:


> That first statistic lumps vegetarians in with vegans, which I think muddies the results. Not heard the second statistic. Do you have any citations for it?


There have been many surveys done over the years on it here and there. Probably not too hard to find something similar. I wouldn't fret over those results because non-vegan vegetarians aren't considered in those stats. As I've already noted, most non-vegan vegetarians do a pretty good job staying true to their diet. It's the pure vegans that cheat and give up.



el-bo said:


> But if you became vegan for ethical reasons (Which, if we're being true to the actual definition, is the only way to be a vegan), there is no cheating. There are sometime accidents, unfortunately. But they become less and less as experience grows.



Exactly....which is why there is so much failure. Veganism is very similar to Keto. A regular diet with all 4 food groups allows for cheat days. You can NOT cheat ever on a Keto diet because going in and out of Ketosis is very hard on the body. Once your body is in the state of burning fat as opposed to burning carbs....it needs to stay there. Again....like Veganism, Keto has one of the highest failure rates of all the diets out there.

With Veganism, if you truly do it for ethical and moral reasons, then you don't have the option for cheat days....if you do cheat, then you simply are lying to yourself and everyone you tell about your Vegan diet.



el-bo said:


> Designed?
> Are you actually a creationist, or is that just a turn-of-phrase?


Yes, I am a creationist, but that doesn't change the science behind the fact that human beings are designed to eat and use animal products.


----------



## Vik (Apr 6, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> Yes, I am a creationist, but that doesn't change the science behind the fact that human beings are designed to eat and use animal products.


Well, one could change your original statement to something about humans haven't 'evolved' to eat a 100% plant based diet, but without any science or in-depth documentation/argumentation it's still just a personal opinion with no (documented) scientific basis. With all the documented side effects of meat and milk consumption – combine with the fact that humans in many ways are very different from meat eating mammals (intestines, sight, hearing, smell, teeth, lack of killer instinct, lack of claws, lack of needed speed to catch an kill other wild animals and more), the antique 'it's natural for humans to kill/eat animals' pseudo-argument has been dead for some decades already. We are also the only species that drink milk from another animal, and the only species who drink mother's milk throughout our lives.

Keeping opinionism, beliefs and dogmatic religion out of this, we're actually left with a long list of arguments pro avoiding animal products – arguments releated to enviromental issues, health and a kind of 'golden rule' respect for other, sentient beings. I've actually tried to find valid, scientifically based arguments for using animal products for some decades, and have yet to find any.


----------



## el-bo (Apr 6, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> Interesting side topic. I wanted to chime in because I'm vegan m'self. I did it because I follow (mostly) the tenets of Jainism, I had serious health issues, and I'm against animal cruelty. And as regards meditation: because I also suffer from PTSD, Bipolar Disorder and I'm autistic, it's impossible for me to sit in one spot for mindfulness. That little critter in my brain I call Lizard Boy, my super hyperactive hypervigilant amygdala, prevents me from slowing down unless I'm drinking. And I stopped drinking a year ago. Hell, I also haven't watched a movie in a year simply for the fact I can't sit on the couch for that long period of time doing nothing.


Welcome, man! Vegans seem to be like buses. For ages, I thought I was the only one here, now two of you turn up at once 

Sorry to hear of your woes. Two of you reminding me how lucky I have it

Jainism is pretty hard-core, no? Probably should look into it further, as I only know about the extreme lengths they go to to avoid harm.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Apr 7, 2022)

It's great to see a lot of fellow composers being aware about the positive aspects of vegetarism/veganism and there is little to add to what e.g. @Vik said imo. I just want to say that we can and have to grow with our tastes and food preferences similar as we practice music. We can reduce the consumption of meat and cheese peu a peu and experience how our preferences change slowly. I'm vegetarian with a strong tendency to vegan for decades now. And despite the fact that I loved bloody steaks in my teens I really have an urge to vomit now if I see or smell it. It changed 100%. Fanatism of any kind seldom leads to sustainable change but to narrow mindedness and prejudices imo.
And due to a lot of scientific information we have nowadays I would say pro and con vegetarism is not a matter of belief anymore as it was 100 years ago but a matter of common sense. The positive effects of a vegetarian society on the sanity of individuals and the environment would be huge.


----------



## KallumS (Apr 7, 2022)

I don't mean to on-rail the topic but now is probably the best time in history to try veganism as it feels like there are high qualities copies of nearly all meat & dairy products now and they are finally becoming reasonably priced. Gone are the days of having soy and tofu for every meal.


----------



## tressie5 (Apr 7, 2022)

Yes, Jainism is pretty hardcore. I believe it hasn't caught on over the centuries because it abhors wars, pillaging, massacres, conquests, crusading, or what have you. It's totally 100% about peace, a concept mankind could never come to terms with.


----------



## Robert_G (Apr 7, 2022)

Vik said:


> Keeping opinionism, beliefs and dogmatic religion out of this, we're actually left with a long list of arguments pro avoiding animal products – arguments releated to enviromental issues, health and a kind of 'golden rule' respect for other, sentient beings. I've actually tried to find valid, scientifically based arguments for using animal products for some decades, and have yet to find any.


See my issue with this is the arrogant and prideful attitude of modern society. Why do we think we are smarter and know better than the entire historical human race. There are very few known historical accounts of societies in history (before about 1970) that were vegan or even vegetarian. Human beings have always eaten meat and drank milk (goats and cows).

What makes you think that in the last 50 years or so that we've all of a sudden reached this pinnacle of understanding that eating meat is 'wrong' (whatever each individual person's definition of 'wrong' is), and so forth determined that the entire previous human race before about 1970 or so was wrong with their diets?


----------



## Vik (Apr 7, 2022)

Robert_G said:


> There are very few known historical accounts of societies in history (before about 1970) that were vegan or even vegetarian. Human beings have always eaten meat and drank milk (goats and cows).
> 
> What makes you think that in the last 50 years or so that we've all of a sudden reached this pinnacle of understanding that eating meat is 'wrong' (whatever each individual person's definition of 'wrong' is), and so forth determined that the entire previous human race before about 1970 or so was wrong?


You seem to assume that the 'entire human race' lives... where? There are large groups of people (hundreds of millions) that have been living on a meat free diet for a long time – lots of people from countries dominated by Buddhism and Hinduism. Buddha was born 2500+ years ago. Various studies suggest that the number of vegetarians in India have gone down the last decades, apparently one third of the Indian population were vegetarians if we go back a few decades. The Indian population is around four times as large as the US population. Several religions also have a strong representation of veganism.

Pythagoras (who was born in Greece, Europe 500+ years before Christ) were into vegetarianism, so much that vegetarianism until a century or two ago was called a Pythagorean diet in Europe. "On Abstinence from Animal Food" is a 200 year old European book that contained the "same arguments that modern day vegetarians use when praising the merits of a meatless diet" according something I just read.

Change always starts with 'something' or 'or someone', but nothing new has started this o the previous century, except that formal establishment of the term 'vegan' in the 1940s.

Btw, I never buy the 'Humans have always......' argument. Maybe men 'always' have been killing each other and been beating up their wives and kids, raped other woman and in general been bastards, but that doesn't make it right. In addition to all the above mentioned shortcomings (in the prev. post) humans have as hunters, we massively fail in another dept. as well (compared with other mammals): our species also kills each other, in massive internal wars and fights with other humans – no other mammals is that silly and cruel. Humans have killed millions of other humans or meaningless and barbaric wars. Is this 'right' if it cab be proven that humans have done that?

In general, humans are very different from carnivore animals in that we are totally depend on 'culture'; on cultivation. We aren't born with the capacity to hunt and kill anything but small animals and isects etc. with our hands – we aren't 'natural hunters'. We are cultural hunters, and we are depending on tools and on 'culture' since day 1 (since we have no fur, we need clothes). We can use our abilities to make tools to create guns / hunting gear, or we can keep developing our knowledge about other ways to survive – ways that don't include harming other animals.

Regarding milk, humans have been around for probably 150 000 and 200 000 years, but drinking milk from other species started only around 10 000 - 12 000 years ago, when we started grow our own food and keep animals in captivity. Nevertheless, there are still a very large percentage of the world population that are lactose intolerant, have milk allergy or lactose malabsorption. Some claim that more than half the world population have problems with milk. https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/digestive-diseases/lactose-intolerance/definition-facts


----------



## el-bo (Apr 8, 2022)

CATDAD said:


> I think "soft" veganism is underrated. Many of the issues surrounding animal products, both morally and environmentally, stem from trying to push volume of these products up, and cost down. If most people merely reduced their consumption/support of these products instead of playing "all-or-nothing", it would go much further than trying to convince everyone to just stop cold turkey, with a magnifying glass on ingredients and materials.


There really isn't such a thing as "soft veganism". It might seem that way when viewed as a diet or in the context of lessening ones environmental footprint. In these cases, we can definitely say that eating really healthfully for 85% of the time will offset the negative effects of 15% junk-food, and that the whole world reducing their footprint by XX% would have more impact than just a few off-grid minimalist hippies doing so.

But this completely misses the point of what veganism actually is...

From The Vegan Society:









Definition of veganism


What is a vegan and vegan food? What does veganism mean?




www.vegansociety.com





_*"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals*_*."

--------*

But this definition still leaves much open to interpretation (The "possible and practicable" part, f'sure. But that's something I'll tackle in response to another post).

The important thing to understand is the uses of 'isms', and how they make more sense out of this. Isms can be used for religions e.g Judaism, Hinduism etc., and ideas within philosophy (Relativism, Objectivism etc,) But we also know them in regard to discrimination e.g Racism, Sexism etc. But we also know various isms that refer to the social-justice movements that fight against discrimination and advocate for the oppressed and marginalised e.g feminism and anti-racism (Interesting that anti-racism doesn't have it's own 'proper' ism).

When talking about veganism, it is as a social-justice movement that exists to fight against the oppression of and discrimination agains non-human animals...which has it's own ism. It's called speciesism:

This is a great primer on speciesism:



-------

Speciesism is the othering of certain animals based on species in the same way as racism is the othering of people based on race, colour of skin, culture etc. and sexism is the othering of people based on their gender.

With that in mind, let's come back to the idea of soft-veganism. If veganism exists to combat oppression and discrimination, why would we advocate for half-measures? How would that work when advocating against racism, sexism etc?

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that the majority of those community would come down hard in favour of a world that is both 100% racism and sexism free. But when it comes to taking a stand against the persecution, systematic abuse (I'm referring to legitimate worldwide sanctioned practices, not just the cases of workers taking their own angst out on the animals) and exploitation of sentient beings, the majority are likely to agree with making reductions only. Soft-veganism or perhaps veganism-lite.

Most in the Western world seem to identify as animal-lovers, believe in the 'golden-rule' and are sickened by the idea of violence against certain animals. Vegan advocacy is about trying to get people to align their actions with those beliefs, feelings etc.




CATDAD said:


> Think about this: if 2 people reduced their use of animal products by 50%, it would be the same outcome as a single person cutting any and all of them out of their life. Which of these 2 scenarios do you think is easier to commit to?


While I believe that people should be given the information 100%, no-holds-barred; no coddling or pandering, and yes...should be prepared to watch the footage from the industries that they support, I also believe 'we' can only get people to commit to the extent that they're prepared to commit. Diet and environmental motivations aside - and having become very aware of what goes into making animal-products - if you commit to reducing your demand for animal-products by 50%...then great. Commit to that. 

I'd advise leaving the maths out of it, though. Putting aside the fact that 50% needs more qualifiers (Are we talking by volume, by calories, by days of the year?), it's a bit of a slippery-slope. Month one might be 50%, but little-by-little those numbers can shift right back to no reduction at all. 

Also, maybe anyone considering a 50% reduction might look at it in a similar vein to the idea of the fabled glass being half-full or half-empty. Sure...reducing the amount of money supporting these industries is a positive move in the right direction. But from the other angle, that's still a lot of voting-with-wallets and supporting these hideous industries to keep doing what they're doing.

Is 100% hard to commit to? Absolutely! Do I understand most won't be able to or even want to? Of course. 



CATDAD said:


> Now when it comes to material goods, veganism can be tricky too. If you make something out of plastics instead of animal-based products, and it had a fraction of the durability, what kind of impact does that have on the environment? (and thus the well-being of all the creatures of the earth?) And who is making these items? What's the point of reducing the suffering of other animals if human cruelty is still involved? It's a lot to think about.


You're right! It's all tricky. What I would say is we can't all advocate for everything, all the time. Human cruelty absolutely is something that needs to be dealt with. Fortunately, there are a lot of people trying their best everyday to put some kind of a dent into this problem. But I would suggest that not being able to solve all problems doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to do what we can with the resources available to us. 

In terms of the environment, for instance, much of the problems are coming from the big corporate giants and the massive infrastructures that go into keeping this planet in the manor to which it has become accustomed. Neither you or I would have any power up against such giants, in terms of influencing policy change etc. Even if thousands of yous and mes could manage to exert some influence, these are huge lumbering ships which don't steer easily. We effectively only have influence at a local level, via our decisions. 

But as depressing as it seems, our own actions are kinda meaningless. 

Just scroll through the pages of Amazon, AliExpress etc. and look at how much absolute shit is being made. It's shit that's being pillaged from the earth, assembled by exploited humans and will only end up back in landfills or who knows where. It's the same with food. Much of this food is borne of the exploitation of animals, and so much of it ends up wasted.

This is a huge problem that we need to work out how to solve. It won't be solved by one person making changes. It needs billions of single people making changes. And more importantly, it needs those billions of single people to make those changes even if they believe they aren't making a difference.

What I think we need is to break it down into bite-sized chunks. Rather than being overwhelmed at all the issues we need to solve, we can focus on the things that we can control. We have the opportunity, at every meal, to decide not to fund the atrocities of animal-agriculture, while consistently looking for ways to minimise my environmental impact AND for ways to reduce contributions to industries borne of human-exploitation and suffering. None of these things is at odds with any of the others. Quite the contrary - It all falls under the umbrella of conscious consumption. And even for those who can't make many changes, there's every reason to concentrate on the things we can change.

By the way, if the avoidance of supporting human suffering is your 'thing', that's a big part of the vegan puzzle, also. It's not hard to imagine why, with the exception of a handful of psychopaths, why being a slaughter-house worker might be the worst job in the world. It is now well-known that the horrors these workers are witness to and complicit in has hugely negative effects on their well-being. PTSD is common, as is the transference of at-work violence to manifestations of spousal violence at home. It's nasty shit...from every perspective.

As for man-made substances replacing leather etc. Yup! In the long-term, at least for the moment, probably less durable. Fortunately, spurred on by consideration for the environment, industry is actively seeking alternatives to the current alternatives, and landing on some interesting ideas:









Fruit Could Be the New Frontier in Sustainable, Leather-Free Footwear


Waste from apple and pineapple production is being turned into vegan leather for footwear.




footwearnews.com


----------



## el-bo (Apr 8, 2022)

CATDAD said:


> It's also important to understand that full veganism is a privilege, and isn't practical or possible in all corners of the world.



There are many things you and I likely take for granted that would be considered a privilege by millions. And absolutely, there are places where it just isn't practical or possible. However, that doesn't mean that those who can, shouldn't. 




CATDAD said:


> I'm generally vegan, but if someone hands me a muffin and I don't know if it has milk in it, I'm going to gladly accept and eat it. If I go to a restaurant I wont order a beef hamburger, but if I find out my side of soup has a beef broth in it I'm not going to lose my shit. If I were to travel somewhere and there just aren't any vegan food options, I'll deal with it and make sure I eat comfortably for the short time I'm there. It doesn't undo all of my previous reductions. I have probably reduced my use of animal products to something like 5-10% of the average person. Imagine a world where most people did that?


The world reducing its animal-product consumption by 90% would be a huge win, imo. But it would bring with it some changes that'd almost preclude it from happening. Certainly,I'd imagine, the prices of animal-products would increase by such a huge amount, long before such a point, that'd stop any progress in its tracks.

As for the rest of the post? This is a huge reason why I think vegan should be used in a binary sense, to avoid confusion. Because I don't see how it's something you'd generally do. Not trying to be an arsehole. I'm gad you're doing what you can to reduce. But why say vegan at all? The word commonly associated with what you're doing is reducetarian. AS silly as it sounds, it makes more sense and avoids confusing what veganism is.

To speak to the examples you've given: Most, if not all, vegans I know would follow the idea that if you aren't sure, then just don't eat it. The reaction to finding out you've been given beef broth is different and would depend on how much had been eaten before realising, any physical reactions to having eaten it and just generally the disposition of the vegan in question.

It happened to me, a year or so into my journey. I got sent a standard whopper instead of a vegan one. It actually took me a couple of bites before I realised (Interestingly, what alerted me was that it had less flavour). Once I realised, I calmly re-wrapped it, gave the rest to one of my flatmates, and rang BK to ask for a replacement. i didn't lose my shit, I just asked them to be more careful in future. I think part of this is that I had absolutely no negative physical reaction to having eaten the small amount I had. It wan't going to ruin my life, so I didn't shout at them as if it would've. Had I vomited after eating it, I'm sure my reaction would've justifiably been at least a little, erm...terse 

As for travelling somewhere and there not being vegan options? If I could find nothing but bananas, white-bread and water, that's all I'd be eating. There's definitely a discussion to be had about what constitutes the practicable/possible part of the definition. I've always thought that a good metric might be when you're on the verge of killing your dog for food, perhaps just eat some sausages 




CATDAD said:


> If you want to promote veganism, you should lead by example to encourage people to reduce, rather than eliminate entirely. You can't cause a huge societal shift overnight, and you have to allow others to choose for themselves, lest they resist from too much pressure.


I'm advocating that people are apprised of all the facts, the truth etc. of what it is they are supporting. And that, from there, they find their own level. I don't believe its an effective approach to tell people to go vegan overnight. i think a slower-transition has a much higher chance of working out. I know that if you show people the footage and explain the arguments, there'll be people who, no matter the advice to transition, will snap their fingers, become vegan that moment and never fall back. So, I don't need to advocate for that; it'll happen anyway



CATDAD said:


> tl;dr - 2 people reducing their animal products by 50% is the same as one person being strictly vegan, and it's a much easier lifestyle to sell


Well, I've dealt with the first part of this. But vegans are not trying to sell a lifestyle. We're trying to encourage people to act in accordance with their own, likely, long-held ethics. Believe in the golden-rule (Treating others how you'd wish to be treated), that's an argument for veganism. Don't agree with unnecessary killing, that's a vote for veganism. Cant stand the thought of animal-abuse? Don't want to pay for animal-exploitation? etc. etc. etc.

I'm happy to help anyone to either go the full whack (instantly or a much slower on-ramp), or to work out ways of making reducetarian a workable lifestyle.

--------------------------

I know this is an extremely long, drawn-out answer. I don't expect you to answer all of it, nor any of it if you don't wish. It's just that the points you made were perfect entry-points to start sharing a broader perspective on veganism.


----------



## CATDAD (Apr 8, 2022)

el-bo said:


> I know this is an extremely long, drawn-out answer. I don't expect you to answer all of it, nor any of it if you don't wish. It's just that the points you made were perfect entry-points to start sharing a broader perspective on veganism.


The entirety of your responses were all well-laid out, and thought provoking. I appreciate the nuance in your reply, and I'm glad you could use my points to share both a broader and more refined perspective. Respect for your clear vision and message on what veganism is, while leaving room for discussion on personal interpretations and strategies, even if they may not be completely true to the defined "ism". 

I suppose you're right in saying soft-veganism isn't true veganism, and I might find a better name, but it does help make true veganism more accessible in the future; both from changes to societal expectation, as well as pushing corporations and media (and thus also scientific funding for alternative items of similar quality) further to that direction to better catch the consumer's dollar over our current animal-made products. I've grown used to calling it that out of habit, as it's a label I would be looking for when shopping, dining, when someone orders food for me, etc over the last 7 years or so. I do also take it beyond food and clothing, with having poor opinion and no support for zoos, aquariums, pets in cages, pet breeding, and so on. It is hard to try to wrap all that up together to an easily communicable idea and call it something other than veganism when it's all in the name of reducing animal cruelty and environmental damage, which in case of the environment, is ultimately also to reduce living suffering.

Regardless of individual journeys, morality, and definitions, I think we are in agreement that meaningful change will need to come from a ping-pong of enough individuals making changes to influence massive corporations to change their marketing, which in turn influences more people to make those changes, which then moves the market further, and so on. We are already seeing that happening, with a growing market of quality animal product alternatives that didn't even exist only a decade ago. Let's keep working together to make that happen!


----------



## el-bo (Apr 9, 2022)

CATDAD said:


> The entirety of your responses were all well-laid out, and thought provoking. I appreciate the nuance in your reply, and I'm glad you could use my points to share both a broader and more refined perspective. Respect for your clear vision and message on what veganism is, while leaving room for discussion on personal interpretations and strategies, even if they may not be completely true to the defined "ism".
> 
> I suppose you're right in saying soft-veganism isn't true veganism, and I might find a better name, but it does help make true veganism more accessible in the future; both from changes to societal expectation, as well as pushing corporations and media (and thus also scientific funding for alternative items of similar quality) further to that direction to better catch the consumer's dollar over our current animal-made products. I've grown used to calling it that out of habit, as it's a label I would be looking for when shopping, dining, when someone orders food for me, etc over the last 7 years or so. I do also take it beyond food and clothing, with having poor opinion and no support for zoos, aquariums, pets in cages, pet breeding, and so on. It is hard to try to wrap all that up together to an easily communicable idea and call it something other than veganism when it's all in the name of reducing animal cruelty and environmental damage, which in case of the environment, is ultimately also to reduce living suffering.
> 
> Regardless of individual journeys, morality, and definitions, I think we are in agreement that meaningful change will need to come from a ping-pong of enough individuals making changes to influence massive corporations to change their marketing, which in turn influences more people to make those changes, which then moves the market further, and so on. We are already seeing that happening, with a growing market of quality animal product alternatives that didn't even exist only a decade ago. Let's keep working together to make that happen!


Just in case it wasn't clear, I'm going to be going through this thread very slowly, and in the order I find the posts. Otherwise, it'll become pretty messy. Just want people to know that I appreciate the replies to my posts. Just don't think I'm ignoring you if it takes a couple of weeks to get catch up


----------



## el-bo (Jun 20, 2022)

stevehernes said:


> Agree with that. That was the main reason i replaced meat with the falafel. It was unusual at the beginning but now i really started to like it.


Thanks for resurrecting this thread. Been meaning to get back to it for ages. Just need to get the 'right' energy beack, to deal with it properly


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Jun 20, 2022)

el-bo said:


> Thanks for resurrecting this thread. Been meaning to get back to it for ages. Just need to get the 'right' energy beack, to deal with it properly


More meat/proteins means more violence, that Netflix Yamomai documentary explained to me lately.


----------



## Snoobydoobydoo (Jul 4, 2022)

Busby said:


> Yamomai is a great documentary. I was pretty skeptical about it, but it changed my mind a lot.


„Yanomami“ though. Ok, yea but the marriage was forced to show cultural takeover? Unsettling….


----------

