# Thinking about Digital Performer



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 8, 2020)

Hi Everyone. I’m a new member of the forum, but I‘ve visited many times over the years 

I’m a long-time Logic user and I’ve dabbled with Cubase off and on. I have a big VEP rig on PCs and Mac Pros.

As you‘ve probably guessed, I’m thinking of going to DP for the chunks feature. I’d love to be able to have access to all versions and revisions of several cues in one project. This would make merging different versions and snippets of cues together much simpler, which is something I have to do pretty frequently. And even though my projects load in under 20 or 30 seconds thanks to decoupled VEP, it adds up to a significant amount of time when I have to open and close a lot of cues in a day.

I have two questions about DP and I’d love to get some input from anybody here who uses the program. 

First, as far as I can tell, DP doesn’t have a native system for articulation management, but I’ve seen some promising looking solutions. Does anybody have a good workflow in place for articulations?

Second, does DP have anything similar to smart control or quick controls, and if not, has anybody come up with a way to do something similar with 3rd party software? Currently smart controls and quick controls are very important for my workflow in Logic and Cubase respectively.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 8, 2020)

no, it has nothing for articulation management. I've heard some people use ProgramChange messages for key switching, and you can manually edit some text XML files in order to have custom names for the Program Changes show up on the tracks... Honestly, DP is way behind the curve in this area, despite the fact they are way ahead of the curve with chunks (as you want to use) as well as some other film scoring features like hit point calculations and punches/streamers, etc.

it doesn't have anything nearly as elegant as LogicPro smart controls either. it does have a thing, can't remember what its called, where you can create, painstakingly, a custom control pane with midi assignments, etc.. I can't remember what its called, but its a way you can setup a custom control with faders and buttons to control some midi thing. But its really old style..not current...not elegant...


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 8, 2020)

Thanks for your response. Do you know if the custom control pane in DP can be programmed to work bi-directionally with a Mackie Control or EUCON?


----------



## AlexRuger (Dec 8, 2020)

It doesn't have MIDI clips, unless you count the new implementation of them that doesn't allow you to edit them in the MIDI editor -- you have to use the far less powerful clips editor. Though I hear that might change.

Chunks are...fine...but if you're even sort of good at file management then you won't miss it.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 8, 2020)

Nathan Padgett said:


> Thanks for your response. Do you know if the custom control pane in DP can be programmed to work bi-directionally with a Mackie Control or EUCON?



I honestly have no idea. I think DP's custom control panels are not really used much and its very old code in there. I think they can basically do anything via midi, sysex or whatever you want, so theoretically I say yes. (ask on the motunation site for better info). but I also think you will probably have to spend a lot of time setting something like that up. But Mackie may have set something up already for DP...etc..


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 8, 2020)

AlexRuger said:


> Chunks are...fine...but if you're even sort of good at file management then you won't miss it.



Version management inside the DAW rather than in Finder would be nice, but real the appeal of chunks for me is that if you have all of your VEP instances set up in a V-rack you can instantly switch between cues. I waste quite a bit of time switching between project files, even though I have it down to just a few seconds with VEP. 

Also the ability to easily grab midi and audio from one chunk and copy it over to another chunk sounds nice. Logic's import function isn't nearly as smooth when it comes to merging projects together.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 8, 2020)

chunks are super cool. Just being able to simply hammer out a quick idea or two or ten....in different chunks...where each one is its own complete sequence....is invaluable. I wish the other DAW's would add that. That is the one reason I wish DP would fix a couple things then I'd go back to it. Articulation Management would be first on my list. Also I want midi clips, but I could live without that one. Honestly if they added articulation Management, I might be compelled to switch over, just because of chunks honestly.


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 8, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I honestly have no idea. I think DP's custom control panels are not really used much and its very old code in there. I think they can basically do anything via midi, sysex or whatever you want, so theoretically I say yes. (ask on the motunation site for better info). but I also think you will probably have to spend a lot of time setting something like that up. But Mackie may have set something up already for DP...etc..



Great, thanks again. I'll look into it. It sounds promising.


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 8, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> chunks are super cool. Just being able to simply hammer out a quick idea or two or ten....in different chunks...where each one is its own complete sequence....is invaluable. I wish the other DAW's would add that. That is the one reason I wish DP would fix a couple things then I'd go back to it. Articulation Management would be first on my list. Also I want midi clips, but I could live without that one. Honestly if they added articulation Management, I might be compelled to switch over, just because of chunks honestly.



And it's good to know that you found it so useful.


----------



## Al Maurice (Dec 9, 2020)

Whilst most DAWs don't offer chunks, Studio One has a scratch pad feature in their pro version, which let's you experiment with alternative arrangements. Some plugins following VST3 spec expose their keyswitches, which you can now have access to through SO's edit panel. Otherwise you can save them as presets and easily recall them as needed. Also they now have a show page, which mimics some of DP's live functionality too.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Dec 9, 2020)

For what it's worth, MOTU has a 30-day demo that you can try if you're interested. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## stigc56 (Dec 9, 2020)

A couple of years back I was in the same situation. Logic wasn't going anywhere and Cubase was too ugly and PC like. So I bought DP 8 and began studying. I realised that DP was kind of the old telephone switchboard, you have to make the connection yourself, no combined track type. Pretty hard to grasp when you have got used to new standards. Creating tempo maps to live recordings was also quite difficult, something I do a lot, especially if you dare to use more than one time signature in a project. But what actually nailed it was the very unfriendly reaction I got from the user group. Having actually read the manual I asked complicated questions, apparently to complicated to some of the old guys, and I was turned down in a very "impolite" way to say it at least. 
AND a user forum with friendly people - like this or the FB group of Dorico - is invaluable for newcomers. When I started collaborating with some guys in US, I was forced back to DP - now version 10 - and although there had been some improvements, my impression lines up pretty much with Dewdman42. I know JohnG is on DP, maybe ask him!


----------



## Gary Williamson (Dec 9, 2020)

I haven't opened DP in months, its much slower than S1, no articulation management, every MIDI track needs 3 tracks, Instrument track, aux track, midi track. In S1, i just drag a Kontakt instance into the arrangement, done.


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 9, 2020)

Gary Williamson said:


> I haven't opened DP in months, its much slower than S1, no articulation management, every MIDI track needs 3 tracks, Instrument track, aux track, midi track. In S1, i just drag a Kontakt instance into the arrangement, done.



Thanks. Do you use use a feature that's similar to chunks in Studio One? 

In my template I already have tracks routed to environment object instrument tracks, aux returns and audio tracks for live stem recording. So the way I use Logic is sort of DP like already I think.

I will also drop in Kontakt instances for things that aren't part of my static template, so I could see that being potentially frustrating for one off instances of Kontakt. But in general, my template has just about every instrument I use.


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 9, 2020)

Geoff Grace said:


> For what it's worth, MOTU has a 30-day demo that you can try if you're interested.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



Yes, I started the 30-day demo of DP 10 when I thought I was going to have a free week, but then projects came in! So, I think I'll just have to buy a license to give it a real go.

It'll probably take at least 6-12 months before I'd be comfortable actually trying it on a project anyway.


----------



## Haziel (Dec 9, 2020)

I demo'd DP in the past (v9) and used it fully during the trial period, here's my experience with the software:

- We don't hear it a lot but DP is very CPU friendly for MIDI stuff, it can take a LOT of virtual instruments even on lower-end rigs. However it seems more performance intensive than the rest with audio files, even though it might be diffrent now.

-The chunks feature is really neat, can also be used as a scratch pad to store ideas.

- It looks slick and pro

- The stock plugins are very good

- Mixing with it is rather unpleasant

- The score editor is REALLY good

- It's really picky with audio pilots

- It crashes a lot during audio editing but maybe it's better in V10

- You have to manually route MIDI tracks to your virtual instruments, which sucksss but I guess it's needed to make use of the v-racks feature.

- There are two arrange views, a traditional one similar to other daws (which is actually useful now due to the recent addition of midi clips) and linear one with tiny colored parts. This view is very useful because it's 100% linear and forces you to think horizontally, which is useful sometimes.


It is a super powerful DAW, I loved my time with it despite some of it's shortcomings.


----------



## mscp (Dec 9, 2020)

Is DP still bad on Windows?


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 9, 2020)

Haziel said:


> I demo'd DP in the past (v9) and used it fully during the trial period, here's my experience with the software:
> 
> - We don't hear it a lot but DP is very CPU friendly for MIDI stuff, it can take a LOT of virtual instruments even on lower-end rigs. However it seems more performance intensive than the rest with audio files, even though it might be diffrent now.
> 
> ...



Yeah, there are so many things I like the sound of with DP.

My main concern really is losing midi scripting. (In Cubase I can do something similar to what I do in Logic’s Scripter plugin with Quick Controls and the Logical Editor. However, in Logic the possibilities are totally unlimited with the Scripter plugin. You can make anything you want).

I think I’ll just buy DP over the coming holiday break and give it a go. I’ll also probably buy some 3rd party scripter plugins (Plug ’n Script/the Blue Cat option) and see if I can put something together in DP that will give me the functionality of Logic’s Scripter.


----------



## JohnG (Dec 9, 2020)

Hi Nathan,

I work full time at this (have written maybe 5 or six hours of music this year) and I only use DP. Consequently, I sort of know my way around it, but I'm not focused on what other sequencers can do -- cause I don't know!

There is misinformation in this thread here and there but, rather than rebut every little thing, I can certainly say it's stable and "runs good." As someone mentioned, the score editor is absolutely awesome, and there are some excellent tempo things. I use a distributed setup with a Mac Pro on the DAW, three PCs, and a separate Mac Pro Tools rig (kind of like 10 years ago, but whatever).

IDK whether DP will fully suit your needs but recently Danny Elfman did a webinar for MOTU, talking about how he uses DP. He uses Chunks exactly the way you described you wanted. Here's the link to the "Webinars" page. Danny Elfman's video hasn't been posted yet

edit: forgot the link: https://www.youtube.com/c/motuTV/videos


----------



## Traz (Dec 9, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Hi Nathan,
> 
> I work full time at this (have written maybe 5 or six hours of music this year) and I only use DP. Consequently, I sort of know my way around it, but I'm not focused on what other sequencers can do -- cause I don't know!
> 
> ...


Where's the link!!!


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 9, 2020)

Nathan Padgett said:


> Yeah, there are so many things I like the sound of with DP.
> 
> My main concern really is losing midi scripting. (In Cubase I can do something similar to what I do in Logic’s Scripter plugin with Quick Controls and the Logical Editor. However, in Logic the possibilities are totally unlimited with the Scripter plugin. You can make anything you want).
> 
> I think I’ll just buy DP over the coming holiday break and give it a go. I’ll also probably buy some 3rd party scripter plugins (Plug ’n Script/the Blue Cat option) and see if I can put something together in DP that will give me the functionality of Logic’s Scripter.



I am in the process of learning Plug-N-Script (PNS) for exactly the reason...so that I can consider Cubase or other DAW's, including DP. I have become very dependent on *Scripter* for articulation management. So far, my experience with PNS has not been that great. Honestly it is much more suited for audio DSP, and its apparent that BlueCatAudio is mostly an audio dsp developer...and that PNS was developed in house for them to prototype their audio dsp ideas. Its midi handling is good enough to implement say a synth in script, but if you do any kind of fancy midi programming, especially related to timing...it is extremely insufficient, compared to LogicPro Scripter.

Its also based on angelscript, which is kind of a rouge little scripting language mainly used by a few game developers. Its very limited, has a few performance concerns and hard to learn about.

I am trying to write some angelscript libraries to make midi easier, but angelscript is much more limited then javascript and there are basically just numerous issues that makes it a hassle compared to LogicPro Scripter.

But it has very very good GUI support, much better then LogicPro Scripter. Also it can report latency to the host, which Scripter can't do..and it can handle audio DSP, which obviously Scripter can't do. You can also compile your scripts into standalone VST/AU's and distribute to people that don't even own PNS. So it has some nice features, but regarding midi, its very very simplistic out of the box and will require some thought and work to get even close to tasks that are simple and basic in LogicPro Scripter. FYI.

I'm still playing with it, but I'm just about to the point that it would be easier to just program my midi helper scripts in C++ using JUCE.

There is also *ProtoPlug*, which is a free Lua based Scripter...(https://www.osar.fr/protoplug/). It hasn't gotten any attention from its author in a few years, but it's free and I think about the same as PNS in terms of providing audio dsp, bare bones midi, etc. Its GUI capabilities are better then Scripter, but not as good as Plug-In-Script. Lua is a much more flexible language then PNS's angelscript with many more Lua-based libraries you can make use of. Dunno, that one is worth a look for a free Scripter replacement. Its also completely open source, so you can always modify it if you are really motivated. Protoplug is itself based on JUCE.

PNS, I'm playing with it and some days I like it, but I keep running into hassles and roadblocks for midi scripts that are simple in LogicPro.

KushView Element has also added a Lua Scripter. You can get Element for $2 per release. It provides a lot of other useful capabilities, but their LUA module is not well documented yet and probably needs more stuff added to it before it will be completely useful but the author is committed to it, so its something to follow.

I am hoping to use one of these options in order to switch to Cubase. potentially DP also. You still have the problem in DP of how to specify your desired articulations per track, much less get a Scripter to turn that into whatever keyswitching, channelizing wizardry you want to happen.


----------



## cuttime (Dec 9, 2020)

Traz said:


> Where's the link!!!





https://www.youtube.com/c/motuTV/videos


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 9, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I am in the process of learning Plug-N-Script (PNS) for exactly the reason...so that I can consider Cubase or other DAW's, including DP. I have become very dependent on *Scripter* for articulation management. So far, my experience with PNS has not been that great. Honestly it is much more suited for audio DSP, and its apparent that BlueCatAudio is mostly an audio dsp developer...and that PNS was developed in house for them to prototype their audio dsp ideas. Its midi handling is good enough to implement say a synth in script, but if you do any kind of fancy midi programming, especially related to timing...it is extremely insufficient, compared to LogicPro Scripter.
> 
> Its also based on angelscript, which is kind of a rouge little scripting language mainly used by a few game developers. Its very limited, has a few performance concerns and hard to learn about.
> 
> ...


Well, It seems like the custom consoles thing you pointed me to might be able to accomplish a lot of what I do in Logic, and probably in a much simpler way.

My current Logic setup required custom programing of MCU from the control surfaces plist, routing through Bidule, custom buttons in Lemur, custom midi scripting, cabling all tracks to Lemur’s midi output in the environment to get midi out of logic, the IAC bus…needless to say it’s complex. All of that to get what it sounds like might be in the box in DP from reading the custom console manual. But I’ll have to test it to be sure.

So that would answer the smart control/midi scripter question potentially, which would just leave articulations to figure out.


----------



## EgM (Dec 9, 2020)

Phil81 said:


> Is DP still bad on Windows?



Horrible is the word 

Fonts blurred, very slow GUI, doesn't even support all devices with ASIO drivers. They should've kept it Mac only if they weren't prepared to do the work.


----------



## JonS (Dec 9, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Hi Nathan,
> 
> I work full time at this (have written maybe 5 or six hours of music this year) and I only use DP. Consequently, I sort of know my way around it, but I'm not focused on what other sequencers can do -- cause I don't know!
> 
> ...


I have been using Performer/DP since the 80s and have no problems with it. DP is very stable and has a lot of customization capabilities. Just try the 30 day demo and decide for yourself.


----------



## mscp (Dec 9, 2020)

EgM said:


> Horrible is the word
> 
> Fonts blurred, very slow GUI, doesn't even support all devices with ASIO drivers. They should've kept it Mac only if they weren't prepared to do the work.



Then I'm out.


----------



## dgburns (Dec 9, 2020)

Just an alternate viewpoint.

Look, I get the whole chunks thing, it’s a great feature. A DP guru can correct me, but you need to have the midi tracks set the same for the chunks to be dropped into a timeline?

Well, as with all things Logic, there is always a workaround. In the case of Logic, chunks = folders ( the old school folders) You can do wonders with folders because they can house just about any midi, and you can mov e that around the timeline. I frequently will select all midi sequences, enclose in a folder, then duplicate that folder, mute the original, then I can go forward and alter, knowing I have the original midi just sitting there in case I screw up. Same thing for alternate arrangements, you get the idea.

In fact, you can take that folderized midi and also assign it to be triggered by playing a single note — if you set it up as a ‘touch track’. So a whole crapload of midi sequences can be played ( by setting it up ) and triggering them by a single midi note, that sync to the current tempo. Sounds alot like chunks, but more interactive imho.
Only thing is you can’t save them outside the project, unless you save out as midi files. But then again, even THAT is a good way to go. I’ve done this alot as well. Grap a selection of midi you’d like to re-introduce a la chunks and save it out as a midi file. Instead of importing the said midifile, simple grab it and drag and drop into the arrange page. You might have to place the midi onto the right tracks ( make sure to name the tracks before so you can match them up) and you have chunks, mostly.

Am I missing anything?

Don’t get me wrong, chunks are cool though.


----------



## JohnG (Dec 9, 2020)

@dgburns maybe you're right that you can kind of do whatever in Logic. But every time I hear that "DP can't..." it actually can. Just not the same way, so it's then "unintuitive." (ok maybe one or two things, IDK. It works)

I think I have sometimes read the same stuff with Reaper / Cubase / Logic / all the others.

Either way, I'm sure you'd agree that, these days, anyone writing bad music is not doing so because of his sequencing program.


----------



## JohnG (Dec 9, 2020)

oh -- Retrospective Record is a new feature in DP. Love that one. Probably in Cubase since 1973 but new to me...


----------



## EgM (Dec 9, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Either way, I'm sure you'd agree that, these days, anyone writing bad music is not doing so because of his sequencing program.



So true! I use a different DAW randomly and they all do the same thing. Hell!—I could do a 100ish-tracks song using 1999 Voyetra Record Producer and the results would be the same.


----------



## Traz (Dec 9, 2020)

EgM said:


> So true! I use a different DAW randomly and they all do the same thing. Hell!—I could do a 100ish-tracks song using 1999 Voyetra Record Producer and the results would be the same.


Prove it, I dare you!


----------



## nolotrippen (Dec 9, 2020)

Gary Williamson said:


> I haven't opened DP in months, its much slower than S1, no articulation management, every MIDI track needs 3 tracks, Instrument track, aux track, midi track. In S1, i just drag a Kontakt instance into the arrangement, done.


Yeah, that's frustrating every single time.


----------



## nolotrippen (Dec 9, 2020)

I've used DP forever and, like any good DAW, you get used to it. The Chunks feature is great, but not intuitive and there are frankly too many subsets of things that should be upfront, AKA feature creep. Try the 30 day demo.


----------



## EgM (Dec 9, 2020)

Traz said:


> Prove it, I dare you!



Hahah I got myself in some real trouble here right? 

I opened an old song (not 100 tracks, I know) and just thinking of remapping all those midi ports/channels to standalone VEP or Reaper gave me a severe headache lol






But it's definitely doable without a song sucking just because of the DAW, so my point stands :D


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 9, 2020)

dgburns said:


> Just an alternate viewpoint.
> 
> Look, I get the whole chunks thing, it’s a great feature. A DP guru can correct me, but you need to have the midi tracks set the same for the chunks to be dropped into a timeline?
> 
> Well, as with all things Logic, there is always a workaround. In the case of Logic, chunks = folders ( the old school folders)



The old school folders are the closest thing LogicPro has to chunks, but its close, "no cigar".

In DP, each chunk is a completely self contained sequence, with its own mixer, its own instrument plugins, etc. its probably a completely self sufficient separate project, except that its saved in the same project file and you can quickly switch from cue to cue, or idea to idea...each one on a self contained sequence (ie, chunk). They call them "chunks" because chunks can be used to save other bits too, wave loops and different things. But the main usefulness for this crowd is the fact that each chunk can be a completely independent "sequence". 

Different sequence's, in DP, can share a mixer too if they want, by using a v-Rack to host instruments...

In addition to being able to quickly jump from cue to cue, or idea to idea...each one a self contained sequence that starts at bar1:beat1; you can easily lay out the final film, for a smaller production perhaps where you're being asked to... because you can essentially create a master sequence that plays back the chunks, each one starting at the SMPTE time you want, etc..


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 9, 2020)

Elfman specifically mentioned using Chunks to play around with different ideas, so he could sequence a little Diddy with some samples, then try a different idea on a different chunk and so on...and they're all there, in a nice organized place...ready to be used in the main cue, or one of the cues, because you have all the cues of the film in one project file if you want.


----------



## Traz (Dec 9, 2020)

EgM said:


> Hahah I got myself in some real trouble here right?
> 
> I opened an old song (not 100 tracks, I know) and just thinking of remapping all those midi ports/channels to standalone VEP or Reaper gave me a severe headache lol
> 
> ...


I never really doubted you haha, I was just having a little fun.


----------



## EgM (Dec 9, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> The old school folders are the closest thing LogicPro has to chunks, but its close, "no cigar".
> 
> In DP, each chunk is a completely self contained sequence, with its own mixer, its own instrument plugins, etc. its probably a completely self sufficient separate project, except that its saved in the same project file and you can quickly switch from cue to cue, or idea to idea...each one on a self contained sequence (ie, chunk). They call them "chunks" because chunks can be used to save other bits too, wave loops and different things. But the main usefulness for this crowd is the fact that each chunk can be a completely independent "sequence".
> 
> ...



I'm wondering why composers would depend on such a feature though, I get it if you're some kind of "modular" composer, but I've been composing since the early 1990s and I've never seen myself having to have modular parts to work with. I prefer the linear way where you build as you go but I respect people who have different workflows though.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 9, 2020)

if you work on films, you may have multiple "cues" and it can very convenient and advantageous to have them in one single project file. It can also be helpful to have a play space within that project to try some things and have them there. We're not talking about song construction per say.... though it could be used for that too.


----------



## EgM (Dec 9, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> if you work on films, you may have multiple "cues" and it can very convenient and advantageous to have them in one single project file. It can also be helpful to have a play space within that project to try some things and have them there. We're not talking about song construction per say.... though it could be used for that too.



Oh for scoring to picture no doubt though, I still like it for its traditional way of handling MIDI as well.


----------



## studioj (Dec 9, 2020)

I have grown to enjoy using “Project Alternatives” in Logic for similar cues / versioning / ideas etc. it’s not really much different than a new song file in terms of functionality except the project alts list is right there in the session / project file. When importing session data, you can choose which alt you want to select from. 
I haven’t used old school Logic folders in a while but your post dg has inspired me to take a look at that again. I do remember relying on them often a million years ago. 
I was actually a DP user first circa DP3 on os9 and remember the chunks feature fondly. Anytime I’ve ducked into checking out DP again it seems to be crash prone but it is a powerful daw no doubt. Also I was impressed by some audio transposition / pitch manipulation demos I heard recently.


----------



## dgburns (Dec 9, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> The old school folders are the closest thing LogicPro has to chunks, but its close, "no cigar".
> 
> In DP, each chunk is a completely self contained sequence, with its own mixer, its own instrument plugins, etc. its probably a completely self sufficient separate project, except that its saved in the same project file and you can quickly switch from cue to cue, or idea to idea...each one on a self contained sequence (ie, chunk). They call them "chunks" because chunks can be used to save other bits too, wave loops and different things. But the main usefulness for this crowd is the fact that each chunk can be a completely independent "sequence".
> 
> ...



Yep, you’re right, I was thinking of those ‘clippings’, lol. I remember now that chunks are like separate sequences etc. I used to score in DP, and that was a neat feature, but really, in practice, for me atleast, it wasn’t an intuitive way to work. Not sure why.
I always peek at DP every once in a while. Love the way it sounds, and the audio routing being more like Protools. Love that Polar thing, used that alot, especially to layer stuff.

@JohnG Retrospective recording is the only way to fly, imho. Again, lol not sure why, it’s more like ‘I’ll play it in, then think about it for a sec, then either decide to play it again, or hit the retropective button’ and move on. I guess maybe it’s faster then the oldschool hit the record button especially for midi input.

fun stuff


----------



## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 10, 2020)

dgburns said:


> Love that Polar thing, used that alot, especially to layer stuff.


You'd love the clip launcher then!


----------



## Alex Fraser (Dec 10, 2020)

I have fond memories of using DP around versions 3/4/5. I eventually moved to Logic as it "clicked" for me - and I think that's the thing when it comes to software: You have to think and be in the same headspace as the developers. If the choices made by the devs always grate against what "you would have done", it's time to switch.

I also remember having a (minor) issue with a MOTU interface and MOTU simply replacing it with a better model without question. Pretty cool company.


----------



## Nathan Padgett (Dec 10, 2020)

dgburns said:


> Just an alternate viewpoint.
> 
> Well, as with all things Logic, there is always a workaround. In the case of Logic, chunks = folders ( the old school folders) You can do wonders with folders because they can house just about any midi, and you can mov e that around the timeline. I frequently will select all midi sequences, enclose in a folder, then duplicate that folder, mute the original, then I can go forward and alter, knowing I have the original midi just sitting there in case I screw up. Same thing for alternate arrangements, you get the idea.



The problem with Logic's midi region folders is that they follow the project tempo and they don't have their own bar 1. So, when you open a region folder, the measure number on the left edge is whatever bar the region folder starts on in your main arrangement window.

So imagine that you have a video you're scoring and you have each piece of music in a region folder spread out over the timeline. Then a new edit comes and you have to add 4 seconds to the 1st cue. That pushes everything down the timeline over by 4 seconds. So then all the following cues have to be adjusted back.

There are tricks to make it work like locking everything (including automation) to SMPTE and using beat mapping, but it's always a lot of work, and it's prone to errors.

It can also be difficult to write a different kind of cue in the middle of your timeline. Let's say that your 2nd cue was in 4/4. If you need to scrap that cue and do a 7/4 cue at a faster BPM, you have to give yourself extra measures by pushing all the other cues further down the timeline and then adjusting them back to fit the picture later.

It's so complicated that most poeple just do a seperate project for each cue, which is basically like having a bunch of DP chunks in seperate Logic projects that have to be opened and loaded one at a time whenever you need to make a change.


----------



## dgburns (Dec 10, 2020)

Nathan Padgett said:


> The problem with Logic's midi region folders is that they follow the project tempo and they don't have their own bar 1. So, when you open a region folder, the measure number on the left edge is whatever bar the region folder starts on in your main arrangement window.
> 
> So imagine that you have a video you're scoring and you have each piece of music in a region folder spread out over the timeline. Then a new edit comes and you have to add 4 seconds to the 1st cue. That pushes everything down the timeline over by 4 seconds. So then all the following cues have to be adjusted back.
> 
> ...



Well, I’ve just about seen it all. I have been on productions where the timeline changed in ways that would make a grown man cry- and did at three in the morning.

Best advice, keep. it to one cue per session, keep the cues short. And you have a fighting chance. That’s why all this fuss about chunks makes me scratch my head. If that DP session goes corrupt, you are sunk man. That DP session with ALL your cues for the entire episode, no thank you.


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 10, 2020)

do you often have LogicPro projects going corrupt? The whole point of chunks is exactly because of the changing timelines...you have a lot more options when all your cues, including experimental material, is in the same project file That only makes those kinds of situations easier to deal with. If you're concerned about your project file going corrupt, which in my view would be unacceptable regardless of whether you have 10 cues in the file or 1 cue in the file, if the project goes corrupt and I don't have a backup, I'd be ticked. So make sure you have a backup if that is a concern.

In my mind, DP chunks are kind of like if you were writing a book and had to put every chapter in a separate file. You certainly could do that, or if you had a way to organize your book writing activity all within one file..would be that much more simple to jump around to what you're working on in the book, copy and paste things from here to there, or whatever. 

DP chunks are fabulous! Mind you, I'm not using DP anymore for other reasons...but chunks isn't one of them..I wish LogicPro had it, or Cubase had it...or that DP would improve itself in the other areas I can't tolerate...because chunks are cool.


----------



## JonS (Dec 10, 2020)

dgburns said:


> Well, I’ve just about seen it all. I have been on productions where the timeline changed in ways that would make a grown man cry- and did at three in the morning.
> 
> Best advice, keep. it to one cue per session, keep the cues short. And you have a fighting chance. That’s why all this fuss about chunks makes me scratch my head. If that DP session goes corrupt, you are sunk man. That DP session with ALL your cues for the entire episode, no thank you.


Backup backup backup... when in doubt, backup!!


----------



## dgburns (Dec 10, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> do you often have LogicPro projects going corrupt? The whole point of chunks is exactly because of the changing timelines...you have a lot more options when all your cues, including experimental material, is in the same project file That only makes those kinds of situations easier to deal with. If you're concerned about your project file going corrupt, which in my view would be unacceptable regardless of whether you have 10 cues in the file or 1 cue in the file, if the project goes corrupt and I don't have a backup, I'd be ticked. So make sure you have a backup if that is a concern.
> 
> In my mind, DP chunks are kind of like if you were writing a book and had to put every chapter in a separate file. You certainly could do that, or if you had a way to organize your book writing activity all within one file..would be that much more simple to jump around to what you're working on in the book, copy and paste things from here to there, or whatever.
> 
> DP chunks are fabulous! Mind you, I'm not using DP anymore for other reasons...but chunks isn't one of them..I wish LogicPro had it, or Cubase had it...or that DP would improve itself in the other areas I can't tolerate...because chunks are cool.



Go sign a contract. Then go put all your work inside one document. Come back and tell me how that went for you.

Lol.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 10, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> do you often have LogicPro projects going corrupt? The whole point of chunks is exactly because of the changing timelines...you have a lot more options when all your cues, including experimental material, is in the same project file That only makes those kinds of situations easier to deal with. If you're concerned about your project file going corrupt, which in my view would be unacceptable regardless of whether you have 10 cues in the file or 1 cue in the file, if the project goes corrupt and I don't have a backup, I'd be ticked. So make sure you have a backup if that is a concern.
> 
> In my mind, DP chunks are kind of like if you were writing a book and had to put every chapter in a separate file. You certainly could do that, or if you had a way to organize your book writing activity all within one file..would be that much more simple to jump around to what you're working on in the book, copy and paste things from here to there, or whatever.
> 
> DP chunks are fabulous! Mind you, I'm not using DP anymore for other reasons...but chunks isn't one of them..I wish LogicPro had it, or Cubase had it...or that DP would improve itself in the other areas I can't tolerate...because chunks are cool.


So basically the difference between writing your book in Word (all the other DAWs) versus writing it in Scrivener (DP).


----------



## Dewdman42 (Dec 10, 2020)

Yes. I love Scrivener and was thinking the same thing when I wrote the above...hehe


----------



## pinki (Dec 12, 2020)

Hi Nathan. I’ve used DP professionally for 20 years. A few things I will say. For me it has always been stable on Mac but DP10 changed that, so much so that I am now on Studio One. 
Someone else mentioned about the user forum (motunation) experience. Ditto. Avoid as it’s full of cantankerous know-it-alls who think everyone new has a cracked copy of DP. Really lame place with no fresh information or people.
The biggest problem with DP however is Motu. The bug fixing proceeds at a glacial pace with one .01 version a year if you are lucky. So if something is broken...get used to it! Some bugs have not been fixed for years. Very annoying.
Saying all that DP is wonderful. I know it so well I can use it with my eyes shut.


----------



## edhamilton (Dec 12, 2020)

pinki said:


> Hi Nathan. I’ve used DP professionally for 20 years. A few things I will say. For me it has always been stable on Mac but DP10 changed that, so much so that I am now on Studio One.



Totally with you. 1987 Performer 1.1 Dual floppy drive. Stone ages.
What did you move to. Im ready to change.


----------



## pinki (Dec 13, 2020)

Yeh I'm on Studio One for a few months. It's really quite good and not that difficult a transition. I really miss the GUI of DP though. But there are lots of useful innovations in Studio One and version 5 has a score editor.


----------

