# Improved Keyboard Chops



## José Herring (Mar 26, 2021)

Hello my Peeps. I wanted to share this little find. So basically I was looking for a way this past year to increase my keyboard playing ability whilst not having to slave hours a day learning the great master works or even worse having to learn endless amounts of crappy little kinder pieces. All I wanted to do was to improvise a bit better so that I can increase my composition ability and program in a DAW a little faster than I could. 

I found this book and I've been doing a few exercises late nights. I initially started doing a hour a day on these but that lasted for about a week before I started doing about 2 hours week. Can't say I'm disciplined piano player, but my goodness! Even that little bit has improved my confidence on the keyboard to a point that I'm able to improv and figure things out readily. I think if I did just 30minutes a day on these in a year I'd achieve my aims of actually being able to play the piano at a high level. I'm actually starting to sound good. 

So wanted to share the link. It is public domain now I believe though you can still buy it if you want a hard copy. 





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Essential Finger Exercises (Dohnányi, Ernő) - IMSLP: Free Sheet Music PDF Download







imslp.org


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## Markrs (Mar 26, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Hello my Peeps. I wanted to share this little find. So basically I was looking for a way this past year to increase my keyboard playing ability whilst not having to slave hours a day learning the great master works or even worse having to learn endless amounts of crappy little kinder pieces. All I wanted to do was to improvise a bit better so that I can increase my composition ability and program in a DAW a little faster than I could.
> 
> I found this book and I've been doing a few exercises late nights. I initially started doing a hour a day on these but that lasted for about a week before I started doing about 2 hours week. Can't say I'm disciplined piano player, but my goodness! Even that little bit has improved my confidence on the keyboard to a point that I'm able to improv and figure things out readily. I think if I did just 30minutes a day on these in a year I'd achieve my aims of actually being able to play the piano at a high level. I'm actually starting to sound good.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this Jose, I really need to improve my piano playing (along with every other part of creating music), so will check it out


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## José Herring (Mar 26, 2021)

Markrs said:


> Thank you for this Jose, I really need to improve my piano playing (along with every other part of creating music), so will check it out


Well worth it. The exercises are grinding and boring. The author was such a good chap though that he even warns not to take them past the point of fatigue. But, they are effective and a little bit goes a long way. All my fingers move independently now. That was my major problem before. Now, I'm moving on to the block chord exercises.


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## Markrs (Mar 26, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Well worth it. The exercises are grinding and boring. The author was such a good chap though that he even warns not to take them past the point of fatigue. But, they are effective and a little bit goes a long way. All my fingers move independently now. That was my major problem before. Now, I'm moving on to the block chord exercises.


That sounds like real improvement, I would love to get to that point in my playing!


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## proggermusic (Mar 26, 2021)

Oh man, these are excellent! I've been using Dohnanyi for the last couple years, they're incredibly helpful. But you CAN hurt yourself if you do too much, I usually only ever do ten minutes of them to warm up. 

I've found it to be helpful to just pick the exercises that seem applicable to your style (or where you need improvement) and stick to those for a while. There are two sets that I've been doing for many months, and still find them helpful and challenging.


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## José Herring (Mar 26, 2021)

proggermusic said:


> Oh man, these are excellent! I've been using Dohnanyi for the last couple years, they're incredibly helpful. But you CAN hurt yourself if you do too much, I usually only ever do ten minutes of them to warm up.
> 
> I've found it to be helpful to just pick the exercises that seem applicable to your style (or where you need improvement) and stick to those for a while. There are two sets that I've been doing for many months, and still find them helpful and challenging.


Good Advice! Yes I was a little overwhelmed with the amount of exercises. But, after all the book was intended for virtuosos which at this point in this life I don't aspire to be.


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## youngpokie (Mar 26, 2021)

These are really good. I had to use Hanon (which is also excellent) back in the day and just recently realized that although it's more than 100 years old it's actively used in present and has been turned into a complete system with online backing tracks.





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Hanon exercises


Improve your piano technique with a widely used piano book : "The Virtuoso Pianist" by Charles Louis Hanon.




www.hanon-online.com


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## Aldunate (Mar 27, 2021)

Hanon's section of Mayor, Minor Scales, and Cadences is a life changer.
Life changer in the way that after 3 years you will become better.
The Arpeggio Chords part is also great as daily studies.


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## el-bo (Mar 27, 2021)

Been looking at piano courses, recently. Been wanting to learn some music theory, but realised I'd be even more frustrated if my ideas started to surpass my ability to actually play them. 
These exercises look useful, as do the Hanon exercises. Should hopefully help me scale my playing at the same speed as my theory learning.

Thanks for the recommendation


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## Aldunate (Mar 27, 2021)

In my personal opinion, the first part of Hanon is boring and does not help you to find yourself on the Piano. 
Just start slowly with the scales and arpeggios part and start studying with separate hands.


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## chillbot (Mar 27, 2021)

People will disagree and that's fine, I can see both sides.

But my personal view is I wouldn't even THINK of starting Dohnanyi until I had a pretty decent grasp of Hanon. Like you should be able to get through all of Hanon at something respectable maybe 90BPM before attempting Dohnanyi or to me it's like trying to learn to play football without learning how to run first.



Aldunate said:


> In my personal opinion, the first part of Hanon is boring and does not help you to find yourself on the Piano.


Ha, I love the first part of Hanon. But... understood.


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## Aldunate (Mar 27, 2021)

chillbot said:


> People will disagree and that's fine, I can see both sides.
> 
> But my personal view is I wouldn't even THINK of starting Dohnanyi until I had a pretty decent grasp of Hanon. Like you should be able to get through all of Hanon at something respectable maybe 90BPM before attempting Dohnanyi or to me it's like trying to learn to play football without learning how to run first.
> 
> ...


Yep, I don't know why it's the first part as it's finger independence and it might throw off a student who wants to solve common piano problems. 
It is clearly very well written but I find them even more specific and professional studies than the Scales and Arpeggios.


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## José Herring (Mar 28, 2021)

chillbot said:


> People will disagree and that's fine, I can see both sides.
> 
> But my personal view is I wouldn't even THINK of starting Dohnanyi until I had a pretty decent grasp of Hanon. Like you should be able to get through all of Hanon at something respectable maybe 90BPM before attempting Dohnanyi or to me it's like trying to learn to play football without learning how to run first.
> 
> ...


Do you think people gravitate towards different techniques. I tried the Hanon many years ago and couldn't get a damn thing out of it. Mirror exercises didn't help me. I could play them all day long and didn't learn anything. On the other hand the Dohnanyi, I was better after the first day. Maybe the Hanon played a role in it, who knows. I just think more Dohnannyi then Hanon. 

Never made it to the second part of Hanon. But, I'd be willing to give it a look.


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## gamma-ut (Mar 28, 2021)

I think one advantage of Dohnanyi is that it’s clearer what the exercises are trying to achieve and that it’s having an effect, particularly with things like the independence exercises for the weak fingers. It also benefits from being structured as being more selective rather than a sequence you’re meant to run through in a particular order. Hanon by comparison feels like a whole lot of busywork partly because it is so repetitive and for me didn’t like it was translating into useful skills or coordination. I wound up gravitating to Czerny instead of Hanon because there are exercises in that that seem to have a point, like the ascending/descending thirds.


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## sostenuto (Mar 28, 2021)

Find it tough _today_ to think how _adults_ should approach this. 
Years of parochial school elementary school teaching as part of everyday learning. Scales, arpeggios, light classical, annual recitals. High school _ pop/ light jazz learning with professional player/teacher. Hanon had crept in sometime but not sure when. Brief time with Howard Brubeck and immediately pushed to Dohna'nyi. Independent finger control was clearly weak. 
Tausig now impressive, but no clue when this could/ should have been introduced most effectively. Likely some variation for each individual. Cool Thread _ good to read these impressions !


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## proggermusic (Mar 28, 2021)

gamma-ut said:


> I think one advantage of Dohnanyi is that it’s clearer what the exercises are trying to achieve and that it’s having an effect, particularly with things like the independence exercises for the weak fingers. It also benefits from being structured as being more selective rather than a sequence you’re meant to run through in a particular order. Hanon by comparison feels like a whole lot of busywork partly because it is so repetitive and for me didn’t like it was translating into useful skills or coordination. I wound up gravitating to Czerny instead of Hanon because there are exercises in that that seem to have a point, like the ascending/descending thirds.


I completely agree, except flip Hanon and Czerny for me... I tried to like Czerny but just can't get into it. I found Hanon much more enjoyable and helpful for whatever reason, particularly after the first few. Since I play saxophone as well as piano, for a while I was doing certain Hanon patterns in all 12 keys on the horn, and doing them as melodic minor patterns in addition to major. Makes for some pretty cool-sounding melodic shapes sometimes!


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## schrodinger1612 (Mar 31, 2021)

Does one have to already be well versed in piano before tackling the Donanyi book? Can a relative beginner like me who has the basic essentials down still benefit from it? ive been practicing slowly over the last 8 months or so; I know my basic scales and chords already. I could certainly do with breaking out of scale runs and learning to improvise properly.


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## sostenuto (Mar 31, 2021)

Posted some thoughts earlier, but quick response is _ try Donanyi and take it slowly, perhaps with early guidance. It can be challenging and stressful, much depending on each student's current abilities. 
Personal teacher had me 'feel' how relaxed his hands, wrists were while working thru early exercises ....... compared with much tension and tightness in my case. That barrier must be overcome and never too early or late. Less than $20. (Essential Finder Exercises - Piano) is surely not an impediment with support from many decades. Best of success, regardless !


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## tonaliszt (Mar 31, 2021)

I would suggest caution to those inexperienced in piano playing with these exercises - the early exercises which have you hold down notes do not encourage rotation (a crucial part of good technique), and can hurt your overall technique. I personally know several friends who have been seriously injured due to these sorts of practice ideas. Old-fashioned ideas like strengthening the fingers are wrong on a biological level (you ever see an 80-year-old pianist with ripped fingers??).

Since these old-fashioned exercises (Brahms and Dohnanyi) science has found out much more about the actual technique of piano playing, and you are probably better off doing more modern rotation exercises or just playing actual music. 

I'm very glad you're finding such success with these Jose, but I've seen too many friends get seriously injured and have to relearn their technique (in part to get rid of the bad habits that such exercises promote) to advise anyone to do these if they are at all serious in ever learning advanced repertoire.


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## José Herring (Apr 1, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> I would suggest caution to those inexperienced in piano playing with these exercises - the early exercises which have you hold down notes do not encourage rotation (a crucial part of good technique), and can hurt your overall technique. I personally know several friends who have been seriously injured due to these sorts of practice ideas. Old-fashioned ideas like strengthening the fingers are wrong on a biological level (you ever see an 80-year-old pianist with ripped fingers??).
> 
> Since these old-fashioned exercises (Brahms and Dohnanyi) science has found out much more about the actual technique of piano playing, and you are probably better off doing more modern rotation exercises or just playing actual music.
> 
> I'm very glad you're finding such success with these Jose, but I've seen too many friends get seriously injured and have to relearn their technique (in part to get rid of the bad habits that such exercises promote) to advise anyone to do these if they are at all serious in ever learning advanced repertoire.


I agree with you. I must admit that when I was doing it hours a day there was some serious cracking and popping going on in places that I didn't even know I had tendons. Due to spending most of my formative years beating the clarinet into submission I already have iron fingers. To play the clarinet well takes an amazing amount of brute strength so I was no stranger to overcoming obstacles by brute force. But, in the end I realized that to relax and do it is better so I've been doing that lately and haven't had any fatigue.

I have to be careful though. I thrive off the pain. In the past for me it meant success on the clarinet but I can see that the piano takes a finer touch than that. I guess that's why I've gotten interested in it. I even told my wife that I miss performing. She assumed I meant the clarinet but in truth I now dream of someday giving a piano recital of my own music. I hoping to do that in about 5 years.

Please point me to some more exercises that employ the rotation you speak of. I am interested in more modern exercises, I'm not interested in slaving away to learn other people's music.


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## TiagoG (Apr 1, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> Since these old-fashioned exercises (Brahms and Dohnanyi) science has found out much more about the actual technique of piano playing, and you are probably better off doing more modern rotation exercises or just playing actual music.


Do you have any recommendations?


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## José Herring (Apr 1, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Posted some thoughts earlier, but quick response is _ try Donanyi and take it slowly, perhaps with early guidance. It can be challenging and stressful, much depending on each student's current abilities.
> Personal teacher had me 'feel' how relaxed his hands, wrists were while working thru early exercises ....... compared with much tension and tightness in my case. That barrier must be overcome and never too early or late. Less than $20. (Essential Finder Exercises - Piano) is surely not an impediment with support from many decades. Best of success, regardless !


Yeah, relaxed hasn't really been my strong point either. Though I did noticed the last time I did the exercises my hands were a lot looser. But seeing how when I first started my fingers were like little jackhammers, I probably should look at relaxing a bit more.


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## Daryl (Apr 1, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> I would suggest caution to those inexperienced in piano playing with these exercises - the early exercises which have you hold down notes do not encourage rotation (a crucial part of good technique), and can hurt your overall technique. I personally know several friends who have been seriously injured due to these sorts of practice ideas. Old-fashioned ideas like strengthening the fingers are wrong on a biological level (you ever see an 80-year-old pianist with ripped fingers??).
> 
> Since these old-fashioned exercises (Brahms and Dohnanyi) science has found out much more about the actual technique of piano playing, and you are probably better off doing more modern rotation exercises or just playing actual music.
> 
> I'm very glad you're finding such success with these Jose, but I've seen too many friends get seriously injured and have to relearn their technique (in part to get rid of the bad habits that such exercises promote) to advise anyone to do these if they are at all serious in ever learning advanced repertoire.


Yes, a lot was misunderstood in the past. If strength was an issue, how is it possible for really young kids play so well? The old fashioned exercises are useful, providing that you approach them with modern ideas of technique.


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## tonaliszt (Apr 1, 2021)

TiagoG said:


> Do you have any recommendations?





Daryl said:


> The old fashioned exercises are useful, providing that you approach them with modern ideas of technique.


Yes, _how_ you do exercises is more important than what the notes are. 

I think hanon can serve very well to rotation practice, but you will probably need the physical movements explained by a Taubman (I very much recommend looking up the Taubman approach!) or Alexander technique teacher (although many other American teachers also have some philosophy of rotation - but I'm not so certain how common such ideas are outside of the US). But you might as well apply it to Chopin etudes or Czerny or Clementi. The Brahms and Dohnanyi just happen to be extremely counter-intuitive to rotation - they force you to keep the wrist stationary when the wrist and arm should always be moving while you are playing. 

As an example to demonstrate the basic idea of rotation: take a simple boogie-woogie bass line with octave jumps, try playing it with the wrist perfectly flat and with the movement of the fingers (you will probably not get through 12 bars without pain). Then try the same music keeping the fingers stationary (not locked, firm but loose) but rotating the wrist - it should be much easier. This is the same principle that allows for 90% of all piano playing - octaves and repeated notes use different techniques, among a few others. 

I would say - if you aren't interested in playing other people's music or getting to an advanced level in repertoire/going to a conservatory/career as a piano teacher, you can probably get there by brute-forcing Dohnanyi and grip trainers without injuring yourself.


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## sean8877 (Apr 1, 2021)

Aldunate said:


> Yep, I don't know why it's the first part as it's finger independence and it might throw off a student who wants to solve common piano problems.
> It is clearly very well written but I find them even more specific and professional studies than the Scales and Arpeggios.


The first part of Hanon is supposed to strengthen the 4th and 5th fingers which are usually the weakest. It's fun to play the first part but if you're already doing a lot of playing you probably don't need it as much as the 2nd part.


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## sostenuto (Apr 1, 2021)

Wow ! To OP ..... main point so far is 'One size _*does not*_ fit all' Bad technique, overdone, individual physiological issues, should not divert/dissuade you from trying any or all time-tested techniques used by capable, professional players/artists/virtuosos. Clearly there are approaches better suited to some individuals than others. Experiencing pain or any other notable discomfort should be an obvious signal to stop and reassess. Only you know if you have physiological issues to sort. Common sense signals overdoing anything, and sad that some do not have it or use it. You now have more input than I had over decades of practice, lessons, and playing. Time to jump oi the pool.


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## José Herring (Apr 1, 2021)

sostenuto said:


> Wow ! To OP ..... main point so far is 'One size _*does not*_ fit all' Bad technique, overdone, individual physiological issues, should not divert/dissuade you from trying any or all time-tested techniques used by capable, professional players/artists/virtuosos. Clearly there are approaches better suited to some individuals than others. Experiencing pain or any other notable discomfort should be an obvious signal to stop and reassess. Only you know if you have physiological issues to sort. Common sense signals overdoing anything, and sad that some do not have it or use it. You now have more input than I had over decades of practice, lessons, and playing. Time to jump oi the pool.


I think a lot has to do with your weakness. Like I said, I had no problems doing the first part of Hanon because doing mirror movements in both hands was not a problem for me. I tend to think like that any way being more or less ambidextrous. What I did have a huge problem with was moving the fingers independently. I started with Cortot but found that I didn't understand what he was trying to get at and the exercises so mind numbing that I soon gave it up, but my technique did improve a little. So, that's why I went looking for something else to gain better finger coordination.

Very interested in this idea of rotation though. I have yet isolated that as a problem. I tend to move my arms and wrist naturally any way but I could use some improvement in navigating the keyboard better. I'm now very curious about Hanon book 2. 



tonaliszt said:


> Yes, _how_ you do exercises is more important than what the notes are.
> 
> I think hanon can serve very well to rotation practice, but you will probably need the physical movements explained by a Taubman (I very much recommend looking up the Taubman approach!) or Alexander technique teacher (although many other American teachers also have some philosophy of rotation - but I'm not so certain how common such ideas are outside of the US). But you might as well apply it to Chopin etudes or Czerny or Clementi. The Brahms and Dohnanyi just happen to be extremely counter-intuitive to rotation - they force you to keep the wrist stationary when the wrist and arm should always be moving while you are playing.
> 
> ...



I could probably stomach learning some Chopin but honestly I have the Cznery book and find it too musically uninteresting to spend much time on it.

Thanks for the concern. I'm not worried about injuring myself if that were going to be my issue it would have happened in my first 20 years of beating the clarinet into submission.


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## jonnybutter (Apr 1, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Yeah, relaxed hasn't really been my strong point either. Though I did noticed the last time I did the exercises my hands were a lot looser. But seeing how when I first started my fingers were like little jackhammers, I probably should look at relaxing a bit more.


Relaxed fingers is the key to piano playing. You’ve probably heard it many times before, but it‘s really so true. I have recently even used finger-tapping to remind myself how relaxed it should be. I suppose there’s no One Way to do anything, but learning to have relaxed fingers was a breakthrough for me. But playing clarinet? I don’t know how anyone plays one of those!


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## José Herring (Aug 24, 2021)

Daryl said:


> Yes, a lot was misunderstood in the past. If strength was an issue, how is it possible for really young kids play so well? The old fashioned exercises are useful, providing that you approach them with modern ideas of technique.



Update. I know you've all been dying to find out about my progress. Yeah!!! Okay....

Well let me start off by saying YOU WERE ALL CORRECT! 

Here's the saga. In my herculean attempt to improve my piano chops by using the Dohnanyi I have to say, that it did improve my piano chops rapidly. I was dazzling my family with my improved ability to improvise on piano like a champ. I mean I'm no Kieth Jarret or anything but the difference was night and day. 

Now the down side. I injured my finger. Not doing those exercises but my fingers after hours of playing in that style on and off for several months, last week I was doing a mundane cleaning task and I sprained it. More of a mild annoyance rather than a serious injury and I'm not sure that I can attribute it to precisely those exercises but I have a strong suspicion that the exercises weakens the muscles of my fingers over time though at the same time the agility increased rapidly. 

All is not lost though. I've also been working on the Complete Piano Technique book by Jennifer Costellano also suggested to me in this thread. I'd kind of not really giving the Costellano book any real serious go in spite of realizing that it did make things easier. But, I wanted fast and was willing to muscle it out because that's what I did in my youth to learn to play the clarinet well. Bleeding lips, worn ache fingers, pfff.. when you are in your teens and twenties, you bounce back in a day or hours. No prob...but at middle age, not bouncing back so easily. 

So tonight I started giving the Costellano approach more heed. I can say that Daryl was correct. Combining the two approaches is proving to be combining the best of both worlds. I'm not totally relaxed. I don't know if I ever could be. But moving the wrist and the forearm (rotation) which in my head was "sloppy technique" ( don't know where that idea came from really. I've had all of about 2 real piano lessons in my whole life. The first one was find middle "c" the second one was me practicing for a week so that I could test out of my piano class 20 years later)... But the rotation technique is actually improving my technique a lot. i'm able to move about faster and better. 

Now I'm heading into real music. I've picked Bach Well Tempered Klavier but I have to say that I'm having trouble now with fingering. How to place which finger and where so that I'm not hitting my pinky 3 times in a row to get up scale or something stupid like that. How does one even learn about when and where to place the correct finger? When I'm improving that's easy because I can control the notes but if I ever really want to be a real improver, I'm going to need a better method to fingering the notes.


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## jonnybutter (Aug 24, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I've picked Bach Well Tempered Klavier but I have to say that I'm having trouble now with fingering. How to place which finger and where so that I'm not hitting my pinky 3 times in a row to get up scale or something stupid like that. How does one even learn about when and where to place the correct finger?


He has impossible stuff, with two pinkies in a row and that sort of thing. Luckily the music is so incredibly good that you want to learn how to play it. Scarlatti is great for crazy jumps and fingerings too. Playing with thumbs was still a bold new idea, so they really stretched the technique. For impossible fingering stuff, in addition to all kinds of scales, I’d suggest learning different kinds of arpeggios, where you have to put your thumb under and reach a wide interval (e.g. an octave). It might get you in the ballpark: a lot of things look impossible, and then you do them. Beethoven has lots of ‘impossible’ passages and fingerings too. I think he responded to musician complaints of difficulty with something like ‘who cares about your little fiddle [or piano]: GOD is talking to me’. They write it and we have to figure out how to play it.

Anyway, I think you can usually buy editions with fingerings. They will give you a starting point and are very useful in familiarizing you with the conventional wisdom. However they might work as a point of departure - if you find a better way, do it, I say. Good luck!


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