# Where has the melody gone?



## Christof (Oct 8, 2014)

I listen to a lot of music, especially on soundcloud I discover so many tracks without any melody or thematic element, the composers of these cues are so incredibly proud of their epic opus, asking for praise and nice comments.

I have the feeling that they spend more time on looking for cool epic cover art and promoting rather than looking for something like a melody above of their rhythmic quantized looped and eternally boring patterns.

The ability of writing a memorable melody is quite rare and demands experience, patience and imagination.

Even in big filmscores the melody and theme get's replaced more and more by soundscapes, patterns and fx.

This isn't a good evolution.

I don't claim to be a good melodic composer, but in most of my cues I try to.

Sorry for the rant


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## Stephen Rees (Oct 8, 2014)

I can only speak for myself and say that I try to put melody at the heart of what I do.

As for everyone else, I leave them to make their own composing choices, and enjoy listening to many pieces that do not have what one might traditionally consider a melody (Ligeti and Varese were already doing this long ago for example).

As a fellow melody writer, I suppose our challenge is to write melodically driven music that is relevant to the soundworld of media music today.


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## Ozymandias (Oct 8, 2014)

Christof @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> The ability of writing a memorable melody is quite rare and demands experience, patience and imagination.



Right, and I think that's at least part of the answer to your question. Regarding "evolution", I'm not sure media music has ever been a great place for that, given how often composers are required to mimic styles and trends.

In any case, there are some good melodists around. Here's one, and not surprisingly he isn't writing for films:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn9fTO7zp5Q


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 8, 2014)

All the better for all the composers who do know how to write and work with melodies, more work opportunities.


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## AR (Oct 8, 2014)

I have this "blurred" lines from robin thicke for you...
Can't let it get past me
You're far from plastic
Talkin' about getting blasted
I hate these blurred lines

Remeber that when writing your next melody


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## Peter M. (Oct 8, 2014)

I love melodic music greatly. I think there is no greater feat than to write a memorable, singable melody. But that being said, I don't think that modern media music is looking for that at the moment. You need only look at the word "media". That's what we are writing for. Music that is supposed to support a product, not take attention away from it. So unless you're scoring epics such as Star Wars, Lord of the Rings or such, there is not much hope for melodic and thematic development. Most of the movies of the past 10 years that I have seen I can not remember a single melodic lick from. But I still do remember the movies. But I guess it's a trend. I'm hoping that good ol' days of Williamesque approach to scoring will circle back soon.


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## Greg (Oct 8, 2014)

I agree Christof! Send them this in a PM - http://www.leonardbernstein.com/ypc_scr ... melody.htm


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 8, 2014)

It's the elephant in the room: The reason why, i think, is spiritual & psychological, and some people probably might add because of fundamental training, but melody is melody, good or bad. I personally think it's because of impatience, mostly done at the computer without using the imagination, thinking they are, but imagination requires patience, it's more like a workshop where you build things in your head, instead of inspiration, it's pure & simple commitment to your one new little piece. It's a different kind of commitment than making it sound good, instead of making a good piece... They all would be a given if there was in the artist the will and a strong desire to share something genuine... *Your piece of music is a reflection of yourself...*

It's like today, it is common practice to use makeup, wear perfumes and buy nice clothes instead of working out and taking care of your health, everyday. Everybody should, but most don't, (instead they put all their effort into polishing their shoes/mix, the sound, but not really what truly mattered from the start, the genuine smile, the energy, and figuring out, by decentering yourself and seeing through the eyes of others, how you can be genuinely interesting to people)... Yes melody is hard, but Christof, i think you're absolutely right, a lot of people don't even try, not even a motif, or making it even about something specific to grasp for the listener, then the other argument is because of style, for which i can only mostly semi-agree, because you have in many cases still the possibility to search for short motifs & develop them and in the end, make your piece about one subject...

Sorry for the know-it-all tone, guys! :shock:


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## Christof (Oct 8, 2014)

Very interesting thoughts so far, I have to add that there are exceptions when it comes to top class AAA composers like Hans Zimmer for example, my impression is that he reduced the use of melodies as a theme over the past years, maybe since the dark knight trilogy, but he uses brilliantly new sounds and patterns as thematic elements, let's take the endless electric cello glissando in super slow motion from jokers theme for example.
Is it a melody?Not for most ears.But it actually is a theme somehow.It's cool.It's memorable because none has done it before as far as I know.

On the other side we have people like Powell who writes traditional big melodies and Leitmotivs, for example in How to train your dragon.

Both approaches are equally excellent I think.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 8, 2014)

For one thing, media dictates a lot of what the film composer does, when a trend begins, for the better or worse, and is rewarding financially for all who imitates it, and is a safe bet for the producers, it takes over the direction of the craft.


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## Christof (Oct 8, 2014)

Yes Guy, it's also the directors who dictate us what to write.
I am in the middle of a documentary trilogy, and the director always tells me that he wants me to write in the style of .....from Brahms to Zemlinsky.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 8, 2014)

I wouldn't even say "also the directors", I include that in the media, and in 99% of the time, the director's taste is also very influenced by the media. He also wants to keep his job. Money dictates...


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## tokatila (Oct 8, 2014)

If you guys are good at writing melodies, why don't try to make some serious cash with some catchy poptunes? 8)


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## Christof (Oct 8, 2014)

I didn't say that I am good at writing melodies, I just said that I miss them.

I am not good at writing pop tunes either.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 8, 2014)

And I prefer good wine.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 8, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> And I prefer good wine.



Wine... ICK.

Beer......* GOOD*!!!!


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## RiffWraith (Oct 8, 2014)

I think many scores have gotten away from melodies and themes b/c composers simply aren't asked to write them. Writing melodies and themes is not easy for a lot of people, and if they are not asked to do so, they are probably not going to take the initiative and do it anyway. Why do more work and put forth more effort than you have been asked to? Unfortunately, that is the way of the world nowadays.

Cheers.


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## givemenoughrope (Oct 8, 2014)

Just an observer of the A-level stuff...it seems like a baby/bathwater deal. Melody is only associated with the sweeping, in-your-face JW themes of (30!!) years ago. Like your choices are Celine Dion or a pad. As if you can't sneak an monophonic line in there to use as a basis for the story (motif). 

Also, let's face it: there isn't much melody in pop(ualr) music these days and film scores (for big films) are more in the realm of popular culture than anything else (art music); just 'hooks', snippets that sound like they're cut from tunes we've heard before. No surprise there. That's been going on since extreme metal, rap and sampling became popular (the mid to late 80s). The effect is trickle down...or across...or whatever.

I'm eager for melody to come back while nobody really notices. Shh. Don't tell anybody. Delete this post.


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## dgburns (Oct 8, 2014)

I'll make the prediction that melody will someday come back with a vengeance.

....the pendulum swings in both directions.


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## Christof (Oct 8, 2014)

dgburns @ Wed 08 Oct said:


> I'll make the prediction that melody will someday come back with a vengeance.



Yes!
Triplets III-the return of the melody- coming summer 2027


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 8, 2014)

The Irish lydian score never really left, right?


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 8, 2014)

One thing though, I attended Mike Verta's brilliant free unleashed E02, http://vimeo.com/104809155
where he literally dismantles into pieces every "piece", good or not so good, that's played, but the people who submitted there are all actually really hungry for melody... It was cute! :D They exist, and you can tell some really want that cake!


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## Sebastianmu (Oct 8, 2014)

Really interesting thread, Christof. I've been thinking about this too for some time now..

There was a link somewhere here on the forum to an interview with James Horner. He talked about a recent scoring project where he had written a theme and *was asked to take it out* again and to do something without a melody and just chords/ostinati instead. 

Knowing that, I'm not sure if the decline of the melody is essentially based on the fact that writing good melodies is difficult for most people. I think the people in charge of the aesthetics of the film honestly believe that melodies are somewhat "old fashioned" and they want a more modern tone to their films. 

And one could argue big thematic music with complex counterpuntal features and lush orchestration has something slightly 'neo-Gothic' about it, don't you think? 

Cheers,

Sebastian


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## mverta (Oct 8, 2014)

AlexandreSafi @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> Mike Verta's...unleashed...where he literally dismantles into pieces every "piece", good or not so good, that's played...




Including his own! Writing a great melody is hard, yo. But I find few things as sweetly rewarding as hearing somebody absentmindedly humming one of my tunes as they go about their business - they're carrying the music with them; it's now a part of them. How insidiously satisfying. :twisted: 

_Mike


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## David Story (Oct 8, 2014)

Tunes require talent, hooks only ambition.

Talent requires freedom, ambition can be bought.

Melody is hard to hear in the booming marketplace of industrial entertainment. But it's there. Most producers won't take a chance on a composer who writes tunes. So you have to seek it out.


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 8, 2014)

mverta @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> AlexandreSafi @ Wed Oct 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Verta's...unleashed...where he literally dismantles into pieces every "piece", good or not so good, that's played...
> ...



I concur. And that man would never know, but i also hummed more than 15 times "So 80's" (to which i forced my young 17 yrs old brother to listen to several times, and he loved it [the guy mainly listens to dubstep by the way]) and 2003's WB's Showest espressivo string tune (those JW harmonies, and everything, perfect...)


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## SymphonicSamples (Oct 8, 2014)

Where has the melody gone is an interesting question Christof . Personally I love great melodic content . When I listen to music , I'll always be drawn to the great composers or a selection of film composers , mainly in part due to the fact I enjoy hearing the way a piece can unfold over a long period of time where genius is at play in the largest of playgrounds . But I also love very minimal music in soundtracks . It can be a fine line for listeners who aren't musicians though . . My partner dislikes scores in movies where your being completely told the story , and certainly at times over told which I can understand . For example as a recent reference , James Newton Howard's score for Maleficent has some truly amazing moments and tugs on my love for Wagner at certain points . The moments of genius I'm absolutely draw to and some area's where the melodic content is obvious and has been done many times over the years where I know it can be predictable , but I still love it for many reasons , the craft , orchestration , how he develops the themes , the list goes on , and the quality of the orchestra and recording is incredible . An amazing composer . Naturally his score is in service to the film , but still my partner doesn't like it . Btw , did I already say I loved it ??  I actually listened to a section of a score a couple of years back for a sci-fi film where I thought it was rather boring , crazily predictable ostinato repetition with minimal melodic content , but here's the thing , when I finally saw the film it worked perfectly and I enjoyed it in context . Some scores just work on their own , some don't . When you mention Hans Zimmer , I certainly admire the sound world that's evolved over the years which he has created and continues to push the boundaries , not only for his compositions , but the shear quality in every part of the process . When you share a piece of music online , not only is it compared with existing works by film composers your also up against works produced at the highest levels of perfection in sound quality . I personal love the fact that music has shifted in film in my lifetime as it should , I love sound design , synth textures and rhythmic palettes that have evolved due to this , and all the genres of music written by musicians who are not formally trained but have a gift for exploring fresh soundscapes . When all elements are combined in Film , something special happens . Personally I always strive to write interesting melodies when composing which is far easier said than done  Who knows what film music will hold in store for us in 10 years time . One things for certain , a great melody is timeless .


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## cmillar (Oct 8, 2014)

People probably wondered where melody had gone with some of Beethoven's music.

He shocked the establishment and the listening audience of his day.

Yet, he also composed some of the most sublime melodies ever!

Beethoven wrote some of his works with nothing more than some chord movement, as did so many other masters of music from the past.

But, most people will probably remember his melodic tunes first of all. (...along with the best motive ever..... from his 5th Symphony!)

We all think that today's pop stars and rock stars are doing something new. Well, it's all been done before (ala Beethoven) but in the style of his day and in his new, rebellious music for the time.


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## rgames (Oct 8, 2014)

Christof @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> I listen to a lot of music, especially on soundcloud I discover so many tracks without any melody or thematic element


Are you familiar with trends in 20th century music? The abandonment of melody followed closely on the heels of the abandonment of tonality in the concert music world. It took the media music world 50 years or so to catch up. Doesn't it make sense that they would do so?

A little music history can go a long way towards putting things in perspective. It will also improve one's musical tolerance by opening his mind a bit. Try it - you might find you'll have fewer rants about other musicians and composers.

That's a good thing.

rgames


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 8, 2014)

I've always had a melodic approach on anything I write and never cared what anyone else thought, but there's one thing that is not to neglect, and that is melodies do eventually starts to look the same, and so it's not about writing melodies anymore but about treating melodies a new way.


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## dgburns (Oct 8, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> I've always had a melodic approach on anything I write and never cared what anyone else thought, but there's one thing that is not to neglect, and that is melodies do eventually starts to look the same, and so it's not about writing melodies anymore but about treating melodies a new way.



and writing a melody can put a big fat target on your back for others to aim at.You make a claim,a statement,and if it's the wrong statement vis a vis the media it supports,you end up on the wrong end of the argument.

less melody,less risk (imho of the whole less melody thing)

and btw-I always appreciate your melodies,everyone's actually o-[][]-o


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## proxima (Oct 8, 2014)

I think it's easy to conflate unoriginality or inexperience with lack of melody, because so much music that is not original or is sloppily made also lacks a melody. 

I love melodic music; I love getting a good theme stuck in my head sometimes. But that isn't all there is to music. It doesn't always fit in a film, and it isn't always what I want to be listening to. And that's ok. If strong, memorable melodies were the pinnacle of music, pop songs would be right up there with the best, and I don't think that's an opinion shared much around here...

But as has been pointed out, writing good melodies isn't easy. So many of us just starting out without a lot of experience end up with poor imitations of modern (epic) music that lacks much, or any, melody (I'm reminded of that thread a few months back about motif vs. melody). But that's taking correlation and inferring causation the wrong way.


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## guitarman1960 (Oct 9, 2014)

To be honest I think melody is over-rated. 
Music to me is about creating emotions and communicating something to the listener. You can create and communicate emotions through atmosphere, ambiance, rhythms, and even sound design. Melody is also a tool to do the same, but not necessarily on a higher plane than any of the other musical components.

To play devils advocate for a minute, melodic film music can often sound incredibly cheesy and cliched and very dated, and personally I wouldn't like to see a return to the JW style at all.


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 9, 2014)

One might too easily lose sight of melody, until one hears his next favorite tune and realizes melody is simply one of the most beautiful gifts that exist on Earth...


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## AC986 (Oct 9, 2014)

dgburns @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> and writing a melody can put a big fat target on your back for others to aim at.You make a claim,a statement,and if it's the wrong statement vis a vis the media it supports,you end up on the wrong end of the argument.



Depending on what you're doing, let's say you're writing to a film on a bespoke basis, then certainly writing a melody is risky. Generally, the opening titles dealt with the thematic content of the score (almost works like an overture naturally) and not sure about today, but would go through what you could expect over the titles. During the film, you would get the main theme coming in and out, sometimes a lot (say Lawrence of Arabia or Dr Zhivago style) and then leitmotifs etc etc. 
If it works then you the composer really have copped. If it doesn't work for whatever reason then you don't get played on Classic FM quite as must as John Williams.
Why?

Because everyone in the non writer/musician bracket loves a theme. And themes mean melody.

Benrad Herrmann hardly ever gets played on Classic FM. Go figure. Obvious. People can't relate to to stuff like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBxjwurp_04

Difficult to hum when delivering the milk. (do they still do that)?

This theme works in a more traditional way, without being in your face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN3ogbTuDSE


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## Waywyn (Oct 9, 2014)

Checking SoundCloud (except for the brilliant composers I know, respect and admire) for listening to music in general is like listening to radio for the hunt of good jazz/fusion!


Just a few thoughts on rhythm and soundbeds:
I would never even dare to put creating a good melody above creating a good rhythm or a good soundscape! It is all equally hard!! ... and if someone complaints about this, it is more than obvious that this person never got really into it or had to do it on a professional basis!

... and with creating beds or rhythm I am not talking about throwing together a bunch of unprocessed loops!


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## AC986 (Oct 9, 2014)

Waywyn @ Thu Oct 09 said:


> Just a few thoughts on rhythm and soundbeds:
> I would never even dare to put creating a good melody above creating a good rhythm or a good soundscape! It is all equally hard!! ... and if someone complaints about this, it is more than obvious that this person never got really into it or had to do it on a professional basis!



I agree with all of that.

I did a production album recently that has not one single melody line in it. I found that really difficult to do. I then did a couple of piano tracks for something else that are nothing but melody. Much easier. Melodies to pictures can get in the way and are not always appropriate. It's an art that very few can pull off effectively.


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## Greg (Oct 9, 2014)

Waywyn @ Thu Oct 09 said:


> ... and with creating beds or rhythm I am not talking about throwing together a bunch of unprocessed loops!



I totally agree!! When I hear crappy synth sounds or half assed loopy things in film scores, it makes me cringe just as much as all the other cliches. I would argue that some composers spend too much time on melody and not enough on synth programming. 

Oh shit did I just say that out loud? *Runs away, slams door*


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## Waywyn (Oct 9, 2014)

Greg @ Thu Oct 09 said:


> Waywyn @ Thu Oct 09 said:
> 
> 
> > ... and with creating beds or rhythm I am not talking about throwing together a bunch of unprocessed loops!
> ...



Greg, to be honest one can't say it out loud enough, because this is how I personally feel about many brilliant melody and orchestral productions. As soon as the score has to lean a bit outside the orchestral instrument range, it is either accompanied by a boring single key hit from the loop lib of choice or some lame presets from a synth vsti!

Everytime I hear that it literally screams: Hello, I am dropdead awesome but I just understand 50% of music production!


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## Dave Connor (Oct 9, 2014)

One of the reasons Beethoven is considered by many to be the best of the best is that he does* everything* so incredibly well. His melodies are stunningly beautiful and abundant, his grooves so syncopated and hip, his orchestration a perfect representation of the musical idea, his form a level of architecture so astonishing that Frank lloyd Wright's father tells him to study Beethoven as "he is the greatest architect that ever lived." He generates a power still unmatched today as well as a fleetness and nimbleness in the orchestra that no one has even approached since. Everything after him sounds so much more encumbered and weighed down. He is also a master of counterpoint and chordal structures and always with fresh harmonies. He is forward thinking in the extreme to the point of being radical.

The point being that arguing in favor of one musical element over another is a bit like saying that tabletops are of the greatest value but you don't particularly care for legs or chairs. 

Something to consider with a composer like Hans Zimmer: When he isn't motoring along (which some people think is all he does it seems - he does far more) he will put very interesting harmonic movement together with very carefully chosen harmonies which are anything but stock. If you listen to the top melodic line he uses to glue these together, they are in fact very nice melodies which exploit the harmonies and tell their own tale at the same time. All very thoughtfully done to my ears. So he may not be writing long arching lyrical melodies like he's in 1930's Hollywood but he has a real gift there.

When people bemoan an absence of melody it's often a reference to lyrical melody but they're still be written by a lot of film composers and other media.


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## Christof (Oct 9, 2014)

Waywyn @ Thu 09 Oct said:


> Checking SoundCloud (except for the brilliant composers I know, respect and admire) for listening to music in general is like listening to radio for the hunt of good jazz/fusion!
> 
> 
> Just a few thoughts on rhythm and soundbeds:
> ...



Well Alex, actually I was not complaining about people who do this very well (writing without melody and doing good rhythms and soundscapes).
I am talking about people who think that throwing a bunch of loops and some cheesy preset sounds is the way to success.

Actually I totally agree with what you say.


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## Carles (Oct 10, 2014)

To me the point is not only having or not having melody but what the writer is putting out when writing the music, what it describes, what you feel when listening.

To put two contradictory examples, I think that the Bach's studio that later Gounod used to add a melody and create his/their Ave Maria, it's a clear example of very rich music without the need of a defined melody as in its original form. (any melody written on that foundation if following the harmony sounds good systematically).

In the other hand, I find boring to dye to listen so many tracks with literally the same strings ostinato pattern, with unison of low brass and huge percussion, with of course, a crescendo (better if with choir glissandi) driving to a climax and suddenly a rest (filled by the FFF reverb tie), another crescendo to give pass to the horns "melody line", which is half a pentatonic scale (which if not exactly the same between tracks sounds so similar that it's hard to tell...) this over, and over, and over... always the same, the original, those that well copy the original, the wannabes, and those that are unable to put together something so simple and just post a frustrated attempt... Well, I don't care if it has actually a "melody", I just cannot stand it as I already have listened hundreds of times the same thing (original or reincarnation but always the same).

Sorry, not intended that anyone feel offended, but please, why not try to be more imaginative, more original.

What's worst, is reading often that the mentioned above IS what every "modern composer" HAS TO DO, and whatever that doesn't fit that scheme has to be necessarily called negatively old school or out of date, or cheesy, or whatever (like if there are no other uses for the music than writing for super-epic trailers...).

In my opinion, that attitude drives to inculture, personal and collective, and I'm pretty sure that after some years of over-saturating every audiovisual products with that mono-style people will get tired and will be asking for something different. So, it's just a matter of time I think.

One of the best soundtracks I ever enjoyed, is a movie called Barry Lyndon.
Mostly of its music was written 350 years ago, and what can I say, didn't find it "old school" or outdated or anything like that, and indeed it perfectly serves the image.

Let's say that Hans Zimmer brings something new to the table, it likes a lot, and since that moment everybody even dogs and cats start writing emulating what Hans did with small variations.
That's not good for Hans and not good for those reproducing what Hans did. When people will get sick and tired about listening the same even the original product loses its value, burnt in the same process than the copies.

Why rather than trying to be Hans Zimmer don't try to be yourself?
Copying others you are getting condemned to to be that, an imitator, being yourself you have at least a chance to do something different. If people will like what you do or not, time will say, but give at least chance to yourself to see what happen.

Similar issue than melody also apply to dynamics. Is people aware that brass can play other than FFFF? and that in those lower dynamics brass sound exquisitely warm and sweet? but also FFFF for strings and of course percussion and woodwinds if used at all, just for effects/runs.

Why these restrictions keeping 3/4 of your resources palette unused by an stupid rule, that anyway will see its end sooner or later?

Also the way these melodies "have to be written" why not using sevenths or whatever harmony that can add richness to your music? because then it doesn't sound "modern" (paradoxically sounding medieval actually)?

Can anyone define what's "modern" and what's "old" because apart of irrelevant for me how long a music was written (if good), I find a bit contradictory that for sounding "modern" you have to use terribly simplistic schemes, found in the music from several centuries ago... (?).

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not attacking epic music here, obviously it has its place currently (too much place IMO), but just trying to say that epic music is not the single application for music but just one of the hundred styles and moods that you can do with music.
There is a full universe to discover beyond epic music.


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## midfi (Oct 10, 2014)

I will argue that a good rhythm IS a good melody (regardless of whether it involves pitched percussion or not).

This is especially true if it is well orchestrated, and played with plenty of attention to note-to-note dynamics which I tend to think of as the rhythm section's equivalent of pitch.




Carles @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> Don't misunderstand me, I'm not attacking epic music here.....



Still, you'd better watch out because if you upset epic composers they _will_ come after you and chase you through a busy market for about six minutes ..... and we all know what that means....


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## Carles (Oct 10, 2014)

midfi @ Sat Oct 11 said:


> I will argue that a good rhythm IS a good melody (regardless of whether it involves pitched percussion or not).
> 
> This is especially true if it is well orchestrated, and played with plenty of attention to note-to-note dynamics which I tend to think of as the rhythm section's equivalent of pitch.



I agree. And even more weird things than a plain rhythm if are good.
When I was working in Milan, one day this guy pop up in the studio and we spoke about music
http://vimeo.com/diegostocco
I could not imagine that few years later he will impress me with his very peculiar experiments (music from a tree? what the hell is that?)
I find it very original, creative and artistic.





midfi @ Sat Oct 11 said:


> Still, you'd better watch out because if you upset epic composers they _will_ come after you and chase you through a busy market for about six minutes ..... and we all know what that means....



I'll turn them to inoffensive rabbits with my magic wand, no worries 

Seriously, I have nothing against epic music. I guess sooner or later I'll have to write some of that stuff too. What I meant is that we can write many things other than this.
Also, there is epic music and epic music, but in general, we are listening very often a very specific type of epic music bringing nothing new, but an used and abused pattern that somebody else created and many composers are replicating over and over (and I understand that job is job and if that's requested by your client you have to produce it). However, is not bad to offer alternatives to an over saturated market (and over fatigued ears) as many types of music can have their place in the market and we can enjoy from ALL of them.


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## JC_ (Oct 10, 2014)

As a melodic person, the only logical reason I can think of for melody going away is: melodies are distracting. A lot of composers are treating the visual as the melody and the music as a subtle emotional undercurrent. I'm not sure who's making the decision but there's no doubt in my mind that a lot of todays films would benefit greatly by having some strong melodic material.


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## KEnK (Oct 10, 2014)

Carles @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> ...I find boring to dye to listen so many tracks with literally the same strings ostinato pattern, with unison of low brass and huge percussion, ...


Carles-
I agree w/ you 1000%! (Your entire post)

I've been reading this thread but hesitant to comment.
(I've pissed people off before by stating my opinion)

Thanks for saying that-

So tired of this endless one dimensional crap! :wink: 
And it doesn't "serve the film" either.
I'm so often taken out of a movie by derivative overused cliches.

It is literally at the point where when I see certain composers names,
I already know I'm going to be bored.

k


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## Dave Connor (Oct 10, 2014)

My comment on Hans' 'motoring along' was not meant to be a criticism of him but rather pointing out that people often seem to see him as a sort of groovemeister who is not melodic. Far from being one-dimensional I find him a very well rounded thoughtful composer who indeed has a gift for melody among other things. If you listen carefully to what some of these A-list guys are doing you will hear melodic and harmonic invention. What's rare these days is the big romantic lyrical melody that you find in {say} Out Of Africa which was so well received because it reminded people of the glories of that kind of music in film.

I miss the beautiful soaring melodies of Old Hollywood myself but today's film content rarely calls for them. Also the style changes that have occurred in music forever currently are not in favor of that old school approach (with the exception of some animated features and deliberate throwback films.)


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 10, 2014)

Dave Connor @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> My comment on Hans' 'motoring along' was not meant to be a criticism of him but rather pointing out that people often seem to see him as a sort of groovemeister who is not melodic. Far from bing one-dimensional I find him a very well rounded thoughtful composer who indeed has a gift for melody among other things. If you listen carefully to what some of these A-list guys are doing you will hear melodic and harmonic invention. What's rare these days is the big romantic lyrical melody that you find in {say} Out Of Africa which was so well received because it reminded people of the glories of that kind of music in film.
> 
> I miss the beautiful soaring melodies of Old Hollywood myself but today's film content rarely calls for them. Also the style changes that have occurred in music forever currently are not in favor of that old school approach (with the exception of some animated features and deliberate throwback films.)



Dave, i absolutely agree with you on Hans! Part of the issue is that when people say melody, they assume, so it seems, it's all about lyricism, but the secret is hidden in plain sight. Melody, or maybe thematic material, is far from gone when you look at all the best modern works of this decade... Take Batman, a first example, an exception, two notes, but it's how they're performed, what context, colors, dynamics, amongst loads of other strong ideas that gives the theme its meaning... Hans Zimmer gave a model for new legato melodies: they're not as flourished in terms of notes, meaning actually less notes, most are performed at a lower tempo, usually less interesting to play on the piano, but each note + harmony is carefully well-placed, and taking a lot of space in the horizontal spectrum like a Wagnerian chordal approach, i like to call them "ambient melodies"... I think the time it really started was somewhere after Batman, with other later examples of that being: Pirates's lush melodies, Da Vinci Code (Chevaliers De Sangreal), Angels & Demons (Science & Religion), Inception (Time), Dark Knight Rises (Bane's Theme: C---B-C-D----C-B-A-B-C----A--B-----)

The rest that followed usually equals trailermusic, epicmusic, etc...

But if you look at these examples carefully, i think you can realize that they actually ironically find their cinematic roots in the 80's with the iconic "atmospheric melodic" style of Vangelis in brilliant movies like Blade Runner, or Giorgio Moroder's Scarface.... They're all an extremely intelligently intuitive balance between ambience and what we're so used to call melody... Same reason you don't really hear virtuosity, runs and woodwind rips, or even JAZZ anymore, it's just too many notes up-front too fast, too light, too unserious, as opposed to this world now, where everything is trying to sort of be clever, dark, or at best "melancholically optimistic", while still everybody takes themselves a little too seriously, you just hear that now in much of thematic trailer music...

Also the idea that keeps getting repeated that melody is a distraction is both totally understandable, but also totally "bullsausage"... Why would it be so, if the artist did it right, with the right pictures, the right notes!(?)! We should be careful with generalizations on both sides...

But my point being, it ain't so black & white, when it comes to "now" music...
Now a last little final bomb, it's good people focus on the sounds or making a great rhythm, but your music, whether you care about it or not, will unavoidably die, or die quicker, if it's not Darwinistically thematic...


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## Dave Connor (Oct 10, 2014)

Da Vinci, Inception and Dark Knight favorites of mine and all for different reasons Alexandre. That kind of versatility extremely rare in composers of any sort.


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## Arbee (Oct 10, 2014)

Beyond the debate about whether a melodic approach "fits" the modern movie, or the modern idiom in general, might a contibuting factor be what I'd call "out of the box" instant gratification. I can imagine a day when all we had was a piano, and it's really easy to sound boring on a piano. I can however pull up a patch and make that same thing sound incredible, at least for one or two listens. Does this instant gratification discourage development of musical ideas and promote good sound over good music? Good music can be listened to again and again because it has architecture, patterns and relationships that engage the brain.

Anyway, just mulling over my first coffee of the day....

.


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## KEnK (Oct 10, 2014)

Arbee @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> ...Does this instant gratification discourage development of musical ideas and promote good sound over good music? Good music can be listened to again and again because it has architecture, patterns and relationships that engage the brain...


imo-
Yes.

I think "music technology" has proven to be really bad for musical development.


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 10, 2014)

Arbee @ Sat Oct 11 said:


> Beyond the debate about whether a melodic approach "fits" the modern movie, or the modern idiom in general, might a contibuting factor be what I'd call "out of the box" instant gratification. I can imagine a day when all we had was a piano, and it's really easy to sound boring on a piano. I can however pull up a patch and make that same thing sound incredible, at least for one or two listens. Does this instant gratification discourage development of musical ideas and promote good sound over good music? Good music can be listened to again and again because it has architecture, patterns and relationships that engage the brain.
> 
> Anyway, just mulling over my first coffee of the day....
> 
> .



Couldn't have said it better, thank you Arbee!
Which coffee did "that" to you, by the way? :D


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 10, 2014)

"Where has the melody gone?" 

This could make a good lyrical song.

"Where has the melody gone?" recorded by Tony Bennett or Michael Bublé.

Or has this already been done? Quite likely.


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## Musicologo (Oct 10, 2014)

Given the last replies I'd say perhaps that's really the answer: "music" has ceased its place to "sound".

The values most praised during past 200 years in western world inside the nich of classical tradition - harmony, rhythm, melody no longer are the values most praised today in the industry. I can see people are more interested today in manipulating and creating structures out of timbrical features, reverb, space in general.

That's not new: electroacoustic music and "the solfege du objecte sonore" of Schaeffer already been dealing with these issues for the past 60 years.

What technologie has done, it allowed these features to be developed and explored with much more easyness. I don't see it as a bad thing - just a change. Probably the goal is to find a balance between all that. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjsQ8E1DNt0

I think the way shown in these kinds of pieces might be a nice compromise. And some hybrid scores as well.


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## kmlandre (Oct 10, 2014)

Carles @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> midfi @ Sat Oct 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll turn them to inoffensive rabbits with my magic wand, no worries



Oh. You mean....

LIKE THIS??!!?!







Just watch yourself, my friend. Those are no ordinary epic bunny composers, no indeed... 

Kurt


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## pkm (Oct 11, 2014)

In film, there's already a melody - the dialog.


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 11, 2014)

Musicologo @ Sat Oct 11 said:


> Given the last replies I'd say perhaps that's really the answer: "music" has ceased its place to "sound".
> 
> The values most praised during past 200 years in western world inside the nich of classical tradition - harmony, rhythm, melody no longer are the values most praised today in the industry. I can see people are more interested today in manipulating and creating structures out of timbrical features, reverb, space in general.
> 
> ...


Good post! You're a brilliant mind! And thanks a lot for this link! It was highly fun & fasinating!


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## AlexandreSafi (Oct 11, 2014)

Just an interesting observation: we've had several threads about "melody" in not such a long time! All, i think even without exception, went over 1000 views, this one is about to reach 2000, I think we had another great one which was 5000, (how to train your melodic musles, by G.E, I think?), I made a John Williams thread, which probably also subconsciously touched on the subject of melody, maybe because the main characteristic of the composer(or maybe that's just my wishful thinking^^) which, by the way reached more than 10000 views

You never get that speaking repeatedly about orchestration, counterpoint, harmony or probably ever will even about design (which don't get me wrong, I also love).

You draw your own conclusions, freely, and that's the beauty of it.

...But this actually comforts me in the idea that melody is something I'm going to fight for until my last breath...


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## bpf (Oct 11, 2014)

Terry Riley would like a word with you. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjR4QYsa9nE

No, there is nothing worse than a forced melody. If the material does not require it then there is no need for it.


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## Waywyn (Oct 11, 2014)

Guy Bacos @ Sat Oct 11 said:


> "Where has the melody gone?"
> 
> This could make a good lyrical song.
> 
> ...



replace cowboys with melody! 
http://youtu.be/JPR108kwNo4


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## cmillar (Oct 13, 2014)

Melody-driven music...
Rhythmically driven music....
Samplers, synths....
Orchestral, acoustic instrumentation.....

Room for it all!

Especially in today's world of music and film, and even concert music.

Think what Mozart and Beethoven would dream up with today's tools!


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## cmillar (Oct 13, 2014)

I get somewhat dismayed that this forum seems to have an undertone of 'pro-Zimmer' vs. 'anti-Zimmer'.

(As is our human nature, I guess successful people always draw criticism and/or jealousy from the 'rest of us'.)

But, in light of this thread about melody vs. non-melody, I'll defend the man.

I think Zimmer's score from 'Man of Steel' has some of the greatest film music we've ever heard as far as being in 'service to the film'.

His ascending 'melodic/motive' of a Perfect 5th, then a Major 6th, back to a Perfect 5th, and then a Perfect 4th...... brilliant in it's simplicity, and brilliant in service to the story of the film.

Beethoven would probably be proud of his fellow German!

Is it a melody? Kind of... sort of.
Just some intervallic noodling around? Some may think so.

Call it what you want.. it works, it sticks in your brain, and it serves the film. 

'Nuff said!


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## bpf (Oct 14, 2014)

Could be misunderstood...my bad...I'm sorry. Please remove this post!


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## KEnK (Oct 14, 2014)

cmillar @ Mon Oct 13 said:


> I get somewhat dismayed that this forum seems to have an undertone of 'pro-Zimmer' vs. 'anti-Zimmer'.


Maybe the "anti" contingent is a reaction to the over zealous fandom and fawning.
I keep waiting for a thread discussing the poor guy's bowel movements. :roll: 

Personally, I don't enjoy repetition music or loops. (or overused cliches)
Those devices (and the use of pop tunes) invariably take me out of a film.
It doesn't matter who does it. 

A supposedly unique film is not served by the cut & paste approach
where the same devices are used again and again in film after film.

It's becoming very generic-
and-
if we can start to think of these things -
(spicc patterns, aeolian horn melodies, "epic" toms, etc)
as cliche or generic,
those ideas can no longer be said to be "new".

k


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## Greg (Oct 14, 2014)

KEnK @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> I think "music technology" has proven to be really bad for musical development.



Whoa now, Whoa.


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## KEnK (Oct 14, 2014)

Greg @ Tue Oct 14 said:


> KEnK @ Fri Oct 10 said:
> 
> 
> > I think "music technology" has proven to be really bad for musical development.
> ...


 :mrgreen: 
That's a subject that deserves it's own thread.
I used to think it was a pretty extreme conclusion to have come to-
but I read some of David Byrne's "How Music Works".
Seems he's come to the same conclusion.

This thread and others like it are a perfect example-

We're actually debating whether or not melody is outdated.
In another thread we're debating if musical literacy is necessary in order to be a composer.

I think the technology, 
and I'm talking all the way back to the invention of radio,
has been disastrous for the Art as well as the Artists.

k


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## cmillar (Oct 14, 2014)

It's nice to turn off the electricity once in awhile and do some sketching with just a piano, a pencil, and some paper!

As the good composition teachers have taught all along, we should all be trying to break out of any 'ingrained patterns', habits, or 'comfortable' methods of composition that we all fall into..... in order to discover something different that we otherwise might not.

That could describe something like our hand placement over the piano keys and always playing our favourite intervals or chords; always using our favorite 'go-to' software or sample library; switching brands of coffee; etc. etc.

It's kind of scary to have nothing but a blank piece of music manuscript and our own imagination to work with!

But, it makes us 'dig deep' in order to get something happening.


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## Shubus (Oct 14, 2014)

One promising development is the somewhat recent appearance of film score suites in the concert hall. All of these concerts (that I'm aware of) have strong melodic content and the public seems to enjoy these. We're not hearing live performances of scores without melodic content as, for instance, in the "Matrix". Regardless of trends, it would seem that scores with melodic content have staying power. There is no denying the difficulty of creating good melodic material, but it is a goal worth pursuing.


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## Living Fossil (Nov 1, 2014)

cmillar @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> But, most people will probably remember his [Beethoven's]melodic tunes first of all. (...along with the best motive ever..... from his 5th Symphony!)



I haven't read anything in this thread so far, but mentioning the motive of Beethoven's 5th in a thread about the loss of melody can be very misleading, for lots of reasons.

First, i agree that this motive is phantastic in it's simplicity& sententiousness.
But - and that's the big difference if you compare it e.g. with the intel-jingle (which is also perfect in its way) - it's just a starting point.

First of all, it changes its shape.
Then, it's used to build larger melodic phrases (g-eb-ab-g-eb-c etc.)
(further, it also gets used in another function: as a accompanying bass-motive).

And then one should not forget that in the first movement there is a second theme.
While it's quite discrete (somehow a bit in the tradition of Haydn etc.) it adds an essential additional information (the "legato" gesture) and a strong tendency to modulate.
The combination of the two (with the first theme beeing much more prominent) not only fuels the first movement, but also can be seen as the germ cell of the (main theme of the) scherzo.

And then, do not forget that the 5. Symphony has 4 movements...

The second has a wonderful melodic theme (i experience it as somehow "laconic");
and the 4th movement has a very powerful new melodic approach.

So it's much more than the initial motiv which turned this symphony the perfect role model for a dramaturgic "per aspera ad astra" journey.

You can see the main motiv as the "thesis".
But there is also an "antithesis" and - most important - a "synthesis".

...i have to add that i generelly to like it, if complex musical works are reduced to some "highlights". I think great music has a lot of similarities with organisms.

(and of course i don't want to assume that the quoted post did so...  )


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## Living Fossil (Nov 1, 2014)

Christof @ Wed Oct 08 said:


> I listen to a lot of music, especially on soundcloud I discover so many tracks without any melody or thematic element, the composers of these cues are so incredibly proud of their epic opus, asking for praise and nice comments.
> 
> I have the feeling that they spend more time on looking for cool epic cover art and promoting rather than looking for something like a melody above of their rhythmic quantized looped and eternally boring patterns.
> 
> ...



you raise lot of points here.

To start with the last one: personally, i don't like the growing impact of sounddesign.
Sounddesign always mimicks the actual ongoing moment, where great music often has an impact that still goes on, when the music is over...
A movie like "out of Africa" that atually has very few music seems to be full of music because there is room for your brain to still "feel" the music when it stopped playing.


Second, i think there is a lot of good melody being written in our time.
Taking the lack of originality in the music of composers who write "epic-music" isn't really fair. 
One should not forget that in popular culture "epic music" has somehow taken the part that rock&pop music had some decades ago.
in the time of my youth almost everyone took part in a rock band.
And: they didn't were too original either, since there were clear role models most tried to copy (beatles, Bob Dylan, the cure, later: Nirvana - there were about millions of grunge bands copying that).
So, if young people start making music by copying their epic-music-heroes, one should not have unrealistic expectations. Let them grow.

And don't forget that in baroque there were hundreds of composers imitating J.B. Lully...you can find traces of his musical language even in some pieces of JSB.

Third, i think what appears as "melodic" is more often rather something that emerges from the coexistence of musical structure: Modulations, counterpoint, accompanying voices etc... Those factors played an crucial role in the traditional music.
And there is a tendency that those aspects are not very popular at the moment.
It's another experience if you have a melodic line which is repeated inside of a pattern, oor a line that coevolves with an ongoing modulation; fueled by an interesting counterpoint...

Fourth, one should keep an eye on the target audience.
Industry has found out that very young people are a good starting point for making money.
Therefore, the film industry has some tendencies to produce more and more rather infantile movies, which of course often use music that is not very complex.
But that's no big deal, one doesn't need to watch those movies...

Fifth, i think there is still a lot of great stuff around...
I recenty bought the DVD of Cloud Atlas and rewatched it.
I really liked the music. Is it very complex? No. 
Has it melodies like an opera of Puccini? No.
But: 
Is it banal? For sure not. It has all those details and nuances that make it a great experience.


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## Zardoz (Nov 29, 2014)

I did an interview years ago with Graeme Revell. In it he told a story about meeting a "veteran" famous composer at an industry event who asked him if he lamented not being able to write long expressive melodies in a film anymore. Graeme's response was that the film's themselves had changed, not the music. The way they are edited now, with constant relentless edits, leaves little room for melodic development. 

When I watch an older film like Star Wars or Raiders now with my kids, they can't sit still. The pacing and editing speed of those films are glacial in comparison to the modern movies they are used to watching.


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## Guy Bacos (Nov 29, 2014)

I'm not answering directly the question, but just want to mention a couple of movies with effective long melodies and both have something in common.

Lars von Trier used brilliantly Wagner's Tristan und Isolde in Melancholia (2011), a masterpiece in my opinion. You cannot talk more about looooooong melodies than this. Hats of to Lars for doing what he wanted not caring about what's "in".

Recently I saw Interstellar, scored by Hans Zimmer. Very well scored. But I found it interesting to see how much it had in common with Melancholia, especially in the 2nd half of the movie, I'm pretty sure Hans was influenced from that movie with very long Wagnerian melodies treated a la Zimmer, and I must say, worked very well.

Maybe these were movies where this genre worked better than other types of movies, could be, but I admire the daringness here, and it takes a dose of that to sometimes to change the tide. I hope to see more movies scored like these, it can be very powerful.


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 29, 2014)

Zardoz @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> I did an interview years ago with Graeme Revell. In it he told a story about meeting a "veteran" famous composer at an industry event who asked him if he lamented not being able to write long expressive melodies in a film anymore. Graeme's response was that the film's themselves had changed, not the music. The way they are edited now, with constant relentless edits, leaves little room for melodic development.
> 
> When I watch an older film like Star Wars or Raiders now with my kids, they can't sit still. The pacing and editing speed of those films are glacial in comparison to the modern movies they are used to watching.



Well, let's test that theory and see if that ol' hack John Williams can still keep the melody going with JJ mega-paced Abrams at the helm. Same composer, same series and (I'll lay money on this) different pace. Faster, more intense.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 29, 2014)

It is indeed rare these days, but my 2 favorite soundtracks are very rich in melody: 

"Little Princess" by Patrick Doyle
"Soul Surfer" by Marco Beltrami


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## Zardoz (Nov 29, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> Zardoz @ Sat Nov 29 said:
> 
> 
> > I did an interview years ago with Graeme Revell. In it he told a story about meeting a "veteran" famous composer at an industry event who asked him if he lamented not being able to write long expressive melodies in a film anymore. Graeme's response was that the film's themselves had changed, not the music. The way they are edited now, with constant relentless edits, leaves little room for melodic development.
> ...



Just to be clear I don't hold this idea up as some sort of universal constant or anything, just a trend. I'm sure Williams will bring plenty of melody to the new Star Wars film, but I would say he and the Star Wars movies might be the exception that proves the rule. I think Revell's point wasn't a value judgement of modern film scores, just an observation that the structure and pacing of modern films didn't leave a lot of "holes" for traditionally developed orchestral music and that ostinatos and pads tended to be easier to work into newer films.


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## Guy Rowland (Nov 29, 2014)

Zardoz @ Sat Nov 29 said:


> Just to be clear I don't hold this idea up as some sort of universal constant or anything, just a trend. I'm sure Williams will bring plenty of melody to the new Star Wars film, but I would say he and the Star Wars movies might be the exception that proves the rule. I think Revell's point wasn't a value judgement of modern film scores, just an observation that the structure and pacing of modern films didn't leave a lot of "holes" for traditionally developed orchestral music and that ostinatos and pads tended to be easier to work into newer films.



Funnily enough, earlier today I put forward an alternate theory in this thread - http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42241- that the reason we've been lacking tunes is that the films are just plain miserable (specifically talking here about the modern blockbuster). So if I'm right, as and when blockbusters become fun again, we should see a renaissance of strong melody. But if Revell is right we won't, because the pacing and filmmaking style itself has changed and fun has nothing to do with it.


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## markstyles (Dec 4, 2014)

Writing a good melody, requires a different set of mind processes then arranging, balancing, flushing out a 'body' of music.. A couple of my friends and I both feel like we create music, like using photoshop. A misnomer you hear a lot these days is, DJ's are becoming 'producers'.. While they may have a great insight on how to mix and merge different pieces of music chunks.. They have not really learnt to play an instrument. 

Yes music in general is more concerned about overall factors, feel, etc.. There doesn't seem to be 'room' for personal solo's anymore. Now in my 60's, as a kid, I had to learn all the scales, inversions, arpeggiations, modes, passing tones, etc. and how to apply these factors in real time when soloing, or creating a melody.

The mindset of composing music on a computer requires another skill set.. I usually spend more time at the computer kbd rather than the musical one. 

As a solution, I hand play a lot of parts, edit takes together. It's a temptation to think of how to generate a part, by manipulating data in some program, but to play it by hand is another thing. It is becoming a 'lost art'

I have a friend very much into using libraries with phrases, chunks of sound.. He has become very adept in creating them..

I was watching some old big budget TV shows.. Where there was a real composer, an orchestra etc. The pacing of the music was slow, as were the visual edits.. This newer genre have very quick and many visual edits.. The music is much less personalized. And I'm beginning to realize how many of them sound quite similar..


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## williambass5 (Dec 8, 2014)

Very good and interesting replies. 

It seems there is a heavy "scoring for films" focus around this board,almost an assumption that it is the focus...and indeed it could be for many, or even most.

Yes there are many fine examples of melody in film scores, but more so than in non-film music, it is more often helpful to not have "distracting elements". A melody is a focal point and, in a particular scene, could be more of a distraction than what the visual/dialog requires. Apart from the opening theme, and those few moments before the pop song comes in at the end, there is a huge space that often requires often nothing more than ambience or moods. I notice this even more in films over the last 30 years.

Again, there are many music/film examples to the contrary, but film does require a somewhat different focus than "standalone" music. Couple that with the avoidance of melody, post Schoenberg, even in purely concert music, and I'm not surprised melody has become an endangered species.


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## dcoscina (Dec 8, 2014)

This looks promising. Trailer includes Horner's original score for this film. Love the theme. Imagery is stunning too.

http://youtu.be/Li5EP6T--Pg


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## KEnK (Dec 8, 2014)

williambass5 @ Mon Dec 08 said:


> ...It seems there is a heavy "scoring for films" focus around this board,almost an assumption that it is the focus...and indeed it could be for many, or even most...


yes, I've mentioned that often here.
Sometimes I think the name of this forum should be changed to "Film Music Control".

This thread is particularly fascinating to me-
It shows that quite clearly, musical literacy itself is in question.
All that's required is the ability to line up pre-fab sections in a DAW and you're done.

For myself though- it's most interesting to see the degree that most people find 
more mature advanced musical development distracting from the film experience.
This is truly a sorry state of affairs.

I'm personally so tired of epic this and that, spic patterns, 
and generally any of the confining derivative devices used to death in film music-
that i am always removed from a film when I encounters these patterns.
(which is all to often)

So distracting for me to have to sit and listen to this same tired formula in so many films. 
No film is "served" by overused copy & paste cliches.


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