# Orchestral Tools "End of an Era" speculation thread



## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 16, 2021)

All bets are open!


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## Evans (Dec 16, 2021)

Permanently moving shop from Berlin to LA. No more Teldex.


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## Jdiggity1 (Dec 16, 2021)

Hmmm... looks like a LAN party.

My guess is they're finally getting WiFi


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

End of the SINE era. Hopefully going back to Kontakt. 😂


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## Evans (Dec 16, 2021)

OP can you please edit the title to be "*rampant* speculation"?


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## jbuhler (Dec 16, 2021)

No more Kontakt libraries. Eveything ported to Sine? Ark 5, the final chapter? Berlin Choir, the completion of the Berlin series?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Evans said:


> OP can you please edit the title to be "*rampant* speculation"?


They’re being acquired by Spitfire!


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## dunamisstudio (Dec 16, 2021)

Old Machine Sample library


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## Chungus (Dec 16, 2021)

Last year, the tagline for this kind of event was something along the line of "what we started is entering a new chapter", and now it's an end of the era? Damn son, that's one short chapter. 

Jokes aside, I got nothing. Could be anything.


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## mostexcellent (Dec 16, 2021)

I'm guessing it's the last of their libraries being migrated over to SINE + maybe new updates to it.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 16, 2021)

New sample player.


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## Laurin Lenschow (Dec 16, 2021)

One last sale on the Berlin Series before they retire it indefinitely


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## RonOrchComp (Dec 16, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> They’re being acquired by Spitfire!


No - they are acquiring Spitfire.

Which would mean that the QC will finally be worth it's weight.


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## KEM (Dec 16, 2021)

I just want JXL Strings


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

RonOrchComp said:


> No - they are acquiring Spitfire.
> 
> Which would mean that the QC will finally be worth it's weight.


Lol you clearly haven’t used their stuff on SINE…


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Something BIG. Something LIFECHANGING.


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## Zanshin (Dec 16, 2021)

Teldex is being demo’d to make space for a mall.


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## zwhita (Dec 16, 2021)

Fingers crossed, that if it is for dropping Kontakt supported libraries, it will be marked by a huge final deep-discount sale.


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## babylonwaves (Dec 16, 2021)

No more legato articulations. I'm super serial.


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## Robert_G (Dec 16, 2021)

Their marketing is almost as annoying as Spitfire


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## Casiquire (Dec 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> No more Kontakt libraries. Eveything ported to Sine? Ark 5, the final chapter? Berlin Choir, the completion of the Berlin series?


That's my guess too


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## Greeno (Dec 16, 2021)

End of kontakt libraries and a big NKS partner sale to celebrate...pretty confident on that


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## daan1412 (Dec 16, 2021)

Whatever that is, I just hope Metropolis goes on sale...


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## lettucehat (Dec 16, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> That's my guess too


We do know they have the Time series waiting in the wings already, and most of the remaining ports seem like a piece of cake next to the Berlin series. Perhaps they tried to port too many at the same time and Berlin came out a little unpolished, but the upside is that the rest are almost there.

Choir is also a perfectly logical alternate answer.


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## Casiquire (Dec 16, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> We do know they have the Time series waiting in the wings already, and most of the remaining ports seem like a piece of cake next to the Berlin series. Perhaps they tried to port too many at the same time and Berlin came out a little unpolished, but the upside is that the rest are almost there.
> 
> Choir is also a perfectly logical alternate answer.


I don't see how that fits in with the end of an era though? It feels like a permanent move to SINE is logical, unless they're leaving Teldex


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## Mike Fox (Dec 16, 2021)

Seriously hoping for an Ark sale. 🤞


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## RonOrchComp (Dec 16, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol you clearly haven’t used their stuff on SINE…


No - meaning SF's QC would finally be good. OT's QC is already very good.


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## lettucehat (Dec 16, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I don't see how that fits in with the end of an era though? It feels like a permanent move to SINE is logical, unless they're leaving Teldex


I'm 50/50 on which one it might be. End of an era would be completing the Teldex set - though obviously they never let on that Berlin was 'incomplete' without the choir everyone was asking for.


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## Getsumen (Dec 16, 2021)

Well, this really could be anything. End of the ark series with MA5. Unlikely since per 37 weeks ago they said they were open to the idea of it sometime in the future.

End of Berlin with Berlin Choirs, I find this unlikely though since I feel like that would require a SINE choir engine which I'm not sure if they had time to add.

End of Kontakt with every port coming to SINE. Unlikely I feel since there hasn't been much evidence of other libraries aside from the Time series being ported, and they were working and delayed on the Berlin Series alone.

End of JXL with the strings lib. Unlikely since they were still in talks for it 93 weeks ago. (Per their Instagram story), plus with how recent it is can you even count it as an era.


So what are they ending then? My guesses? Some fancy new tech thing maybe that ends an "era" of doing something someway, a la Soundpaint stating how sound will never be the same again with their 8 trillion dynamic layers.

Or it could be a new library, who knows.


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## jbuhler (Dec 16, 2021)

As I think about it it’s not terribly logical to do a big announcement about finally putting Kontakt behind you. So that points to a new library that brings something to completion. If that’s so, I’m going to go with the long awaited choir—Tallinn and Miroire show OT has been working on syllable timing in Sine. It’s still a bit wonky in Tallinn (I don’t have miroire and can’t report on how well the syllables workin that) so if we want to pass from rampant speculation to major worries, the syllables Berlin Choirs would be a place of major concern.


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## kevinh (Dec 16, 2021)

Francisco partners got another one…


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 16, 2021)

It sure seems like there are a lot of libraries left to port if the final move to Sine is the announcement, and given the lackluster response to the Berlin Mains port, why would you want to call attention to this?I haven't a clue what's afoot, but I am looking forward to finding out. I'll be more than a little miffed if it's just some random new library announcement that somehow they've cleverly (or not so) linked to the word era.


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## kevinh (Dec 16, 2021)

Maybe they are finally getting new chairs


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## jbuhler (Dec 16, 2021)

The four empty chairs seem significant.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

RonOrchComp said:


> No - meaning SF's QC would finally be good. OT's QC is already very good.


Once again, you clearly haven’t used SINE if you think OT’s QC is “very good”.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> The four empty chairs seem significant.


Teldex Iconic Strings Quartet!


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## lettucehat (Dec 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> The four empty chairs seem significant.


Too close together to be (yet another) string quartet. They wouldn't add more brass at this point, would they...?


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 16, 2021)

It says Premiere along with End of an Era.

Wouldn’t it generate the most excitement if the premiere was “forward linked” compared to “backwards linked”?

Meaning, whatever gets presented is not part of what’s existing / the existing product lineup - it is something completely new which then marks the end of the existing era.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 16, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> End of the SINE era. Hopefully going back to Kontakt. 😂



Heres hoping!


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## Eptesicus (Dec 16, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> Their marketing is almost as annoying as Spitfire


impossible


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## Marsen (Dec 16, 2021)

"We came to a dead end, so we stopped development of SINE Player, fired our IT-team (*outch), and proudly announce our cooperation with UVI and their Workstation player".


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It says Premiere along with End of an Era.
> 
> Wouldn’t it generate the most excitement if the premiere was “forward linked” compared to “backwards linked”?
> 
> Meaning, whatever gets presented is not part of what’s existing / the existing product lineup - it is something completely new which then marks the end of the existing era.


They’re still figuring out the whole “let’s try to be like Spitfire marketing” thing.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 16, 2021)

Oh man, I can’t sleep now because this got me all speculating!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 16, 2021)

To me the only things that could be associated with "Eras" would be 

1) The Berlin Series
2) The Metropolis Series
3) Teldex

My guess is a final Ark  The previous volumes have been released around this time of the year, if my memory serves me.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 16, 2021)

They can’t be building their own recording hall, can they?

The background looks a bit like some building project that is WIP


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## jbuhler (Dec 16, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> To me the only things that could be associated with "Eras" would be
> 
> 1) The Berlin Series
> 2) The Metropolis Series
> ...


Except it’s not clear what would constitute the end of the Arks. It’s lost definition over time rather than gained it. And if Ark 5 is successful why would OT want to close off the line?


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## Tralen (Dec 16, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Something BIG. Something LIFECHANGING.


My life was "changed" so much by sample library developers that I'm now probably a lizard.


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## Robert_G (Dec 16, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> impossible


You're right. That would be impossible.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 16, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> To me the only things that could be associated with "Eras" would be
> 
> 1) The Berlin Series
> 2) The Metropolis Series
> ...


Exactly my thoughts.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 16, 2021)

Tralen said:


> My life was changed so much by sample library developers that I'm now probably a lizard.



"Life changing" in the current sample library world = "Another mediocre string library that does the exact same thing as the other seventy billion ones you have already."


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## Wally Garten (Dec 16, 2021)

"The era of power legato is OVER."


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## Casiquire (Dec 16, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> It sure seems like there are a lot of libraries left to port if the final move to Sine is the announcement, and given the lackluster response to the Berlin Mains port, why would you want to call attention to this?I haven't a clue what's afoot, but I am looking forward to finding out. I'll be more than a little miffed if it's just some random new library announcement that somehow they've cleverly (or not so) linked to the word era.


You know, the more i think about it, the more i feel like you're right.

Though every time they've released conversions I've thought it seems like a surprising amount to do at once


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## Mike Fox (Dec 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Except it’s not clear what would constitute the end of the Arks. It’s lost definition over time rather than gained it. And if Ark 5 is successful why would OT want to close off the line?


The Arks no longer being released for Kontakt would mark the end of an era.

Might make sense to release Ark 5 to get more people to use SINE.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> The four empty chairs seem significant.


Could the chairs represent the four Arks?


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 16, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Could the chairs represent the four Arks?


That’s just the perfect animated gif for this 🙂


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 16, 2021)

Surely they are finished up with the "berlin" series. It's basically complete except for choirs, right?

recordings-wise at least. Editing maybe another 5 years until they should be called "complete"


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## Evans (Dec 16, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Could the chairs represent the four Arks?


The chairs have their backs toward us... their *backs*. 

It's a Sir Mix-a-Lot release, signaling the end of their orchestral libraries.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 16, 2021)

Evans said:


> The chairs have their backs toward us... their *backs*.
> 
> It's a Sir Mix-a-Lot release, signaling the end of their orchestral libraries.


Take my money!


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## YaniDee (Dec 16, 2021)

They'll upgrade their shopping cart so you can add more items..


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## kevinh (Dec 16, 2021)

Home Depot bought them thinking they made actual tools…


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## muziksculp (Dec 16, 2021)

Maybe it's a new generation of SINE, *SINE 2* ?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

With the release of Andea, they felt their name "Orchestral Tools" no longer fully encapsulated their new vision for the future of sample libraries. They will be renaming themselves "Professional Tools" or Pro Tools for short. This is, as per usual for them, a forward-thinking decision and was carefully considered.


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## tim727 (Dec 16, 2021)

They are abandoning sample libraries and moving into automotive.


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## Go To 11 (Dec 16, 2021)

It could be a typo: “The end of an error.” SINE finally purges.


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## Casiquire (Dec 16, 2021)

Go To 11 said:


> It could be a typo: “The end of an error.” SINE finally purges.


You know, I'd be really pleased lol


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## Go To 11 (Dec 16, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> You know, I'd be really pleased lol


But for real I want to know what the room is. Anyone recognise it? Is it a soundstage? I see a director’s monitor and some kind of a video shoot happening.


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## tim727 (Dec 16, 2021)

On a more serious note I'll comment on some of the ideas brought up in this thread:

(1) All remaining libs are ported to SINE and Kontakt is no longer supported in any way, shape, or form.

This is an intriguing option. However, it doesn't make sense for a couple main reasons. First off, there are still quite a few libraries to port and it seems highly unlikely that these would be ready only a couple weeks after the Berlin Mains were completed. Second of all, this doesn't seem like news that would warrant any kind of "premier". To me "premier" implies a new library release or new major initiative/pivot.

(2) They are abandoning Teldex.

Almost inconceivable. Teldex is such an important aspect of their sound that I don't see this ever happening unless if WWIII happens and the place gets firebombed.

(3) Ark 5 is being released.

This is possible, however it seems less likely for two main reasons. Firstly, calling it the end of an era implies that the 5th will be the last installment. For such a popular franchise that surely still has possible areas to mine I think it's unlikely that they would put such a definitive and finite stamp on it, because that would basically preclude them from making an Ark 6 and I imagine they would rather keep that door open. Also, their Ark marketing always involves a metropolis stylized piece of artwork or something, which this is not. That's definitely another mark against this theory.

(4) Berlin Choirs is being released.

This is the most likely, by far. After all, how can it be that they have flagship strings, brass, winds, and perc but no choir? It doesn't make much sense and in that regard their orchestral/Berlin lineup is, in a way, not complete. It would also be the end of an era ... and worthy of a premier! That said if I'm honest the thing I'd like the most is probably (1) because that way I could probably get Ark 4 for 50% off. I don't think it's really in the cards though sadly.


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## Scalms (Dec 16, 2021)

oh man what a time to release Berlin Choirs when no one has any money left.

Hopefully they do a Christmas voucher gift for 500euros this year


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## Mike Fox (Dec 16, 2021)

It’ll be an insta-buy if it’s a choir library.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 16, 2021)

If it is a choir, hopefully they don't follow the same "word building" approach of Tallin - aka, just turn off round robins to choose your syllables!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 16, 2021)

If it’s a choir, why are there only 4 chairs on the photo?


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## muziksculp (Dec 16, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> If it’s a choir, why are there only 4 chairs on the photo?


It's their new Fart Quartet Library. The one to rule them all. 

Oh.. and the mics are positioned behind the chairs to capture the full sonic spectrum.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 16, 2021)

tim727 said:


> (2) They are abandoning Teldex.
> 
> Almost inconceivable. Teldex is such an important aspect of their sound that I don't see this ever happening unless if WWIII happens and the place gets firebombed.


That’s what everybody thought about VSL and the Silent Stage though


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## andyhy (Dec 16, 2021)

My guess is it's the end of OT's Kontakt libraries. I wouldn't have thought it was another acquisition by Francisco Partners as they tend to buy one niche business in different sectors. Leaving the Teldex scoring stage seems highly unlikely. Might OT be merging with VSL? It's anyone's guess what this is about so it will be fascinating to see their webcast on Dec 21. 2am in the morning for me so I will have to catch up the next day.


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2021)

Unfortunately I think it's about the end of their Kontakt era, and they'll announce that all remaining kontakt libraries will be available for Sine shortly thereafter. 

I've been rooting for Sine all along, but in reality it's been a bumpy and sometimes unpleasant ride.


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## NoamL (Dec 16, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Could the chairs represent the four Arks?



"You know what's funny? When you said Metropolis Ark, that got me thinkin'. Now my wife, she says...."


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2021)

Go To 11 said:


> It could be a typo: “The end of an error.” SINE finally purges.


Sounds about right


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## muziksculp (Dec 16, 2021)

Why would they need to announce the end of their Kontakt era, they have abandoned Kontakt for quite a while already, we know that, and I don't know if that needs a formal announcement, and if it is the end of Kontakt that they will announce, then so what's so special about that ? We know they moved to SINE, so it really doesn't add up for me. 

There must be something more exciting about this Dec. 21st announcement, that's not related to Kontakt. We shall know what it is on Dec. 21st.


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## FrozenIcicle (Dec 16, 2021)

End of their old Marketing Era, they employed the Spitfire Marketing team for this latest guessing game


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## gpax (Dec 16, 2021)

December 21 may signal the end of my era using Orchestral Tools.


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## FrozenIcicle (Dec 16, 2021)

But srsly, finally porting everything over to Sine must be the end


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## Trash Panda (Dec 16, 2021)

I swear to dog, it better not be Infinite Strings exclusively available on SINE player.


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## JF (Dec 16, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> If it’s a choir, why are there only 4 chairs on the photo?


Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass soloists from the choir?


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Why would they need to announce the end of their Kontakt era, they have abandoned Kontakt for quite a while already, we know that, and I don't know if that needs a formal announcement, and if it is the end of Kontakt that they will announce, then so what's so special about that ? We know they moved to SINE, so it really doesn't add up for me.
> 
> There must be something more exciting about this Dec. 21st announcement, that's not related to Kontakt. We shall know what it is on Dec. 21st.


Beucase if they announced that all remaining Kontakt only libraries were soon to be in Sine that would be a way for them to officially put remaining Kontakt versions to bed.


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## tim727 (Dec 16, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Beucase if they announced that all remaining Kontakt only libraries were soon to be in Sine that would be a way for them to officially put remaining Kontakt versions to bed.


That's true but why does that require a big announcement? It doesn't quite add up I think.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Dec 16, 2021)

tim727 said:


> That's true but why does that require a big announcement? It doesn't quite add up I think.


I agree - and what about the word Premiere? Something (new) is getting announced. It’s not just that an era has now ended.


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## lettucehat (Dec 16, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I agree - and what about the word Premiere? Something (new) is getting announced. It’s not just that an era has now ended.


Bunch of new libraries premiering on Sine. Sort of misleading but it fits.


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## tim727 (Dec 16, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Bunch of new libraries premiering on Sine. Sort of misleading but it fits.


It is possible I guess. But honestly, is anyone here even going to see that is a big deal? I mean I'm sure many people would be happy about it, but also it's already expected by everyone. We all know it's just a question of time.

The wording makes it seem like there will be some sort of _surprise _or something genuinely new.

To be clear though ... if it is them announcing all their libs on SINE that would make me the happiest of all the options 

Edit: Btw @Emmanuel Rousseau where did you even see this promo? I don't see it in the commercial thread, on the OT website, or in my email.


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## jbuhler (Dec 16, 2021)

JF said:


> Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass soloists from the choir?


This was my guess but I have to admit it doesn’t especially look like a set up for vocal soloists.


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## muziksculp (Dec 16, 2021)

Maybe *Fender* bought them out, as they did to Presonus 

Now they will be focused on Guitars. No more Orchestral stuff.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 16, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Edit: Btw @Emmanuel Rousseau where did you even see this promo? I don't see it in the commercial thread, on the OT website, or in my email.


It is on their Facebook page, and it is worth noting that it is a dark, nondescript image like the one at the beginning of this thread and not like the one someone lightened so that you can see the detail.


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## Getsumen (Dec 16, 2021)

I forgot the schedule last year, but isn't this their annual keynote event? The end of an era thing is probably just one of their lead announcements for the event.


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## DJiLAND (Dec 16, 2021)

The end of the sampling library era.
Now, they go to physical modeling.
Physical modeling of the Berlin Series library


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## holywilly (Dec 16, 2021)

Free vouchers for all OT subscribers.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 16, 2021)

So I'm wondering if it's going to be a caveman library? Sticks and rocks, maybe some red flutes? Which era would that be? The stone age?


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## MusicIstheBest (Dec 16, 2021)

the end of dark rooms and empty chairs. has OT been depressed this whole time? glad they snapped out of it.


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## szczaw (Dec 16, 2021)

Kontakt kaput.


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## Getsumen (Dec 16, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> So I'm wondering if it's going to be a caveman library? Sticks and rocks, maybe some red flutes? Which era would that be? The stone age?


It's another Time series library! Except they just purchased the Era stuff for it hence ending an Era!


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## tmhuud (Dec 16, 2021)

szczaw said:


> Kontakt kaput.


Yep. And that’s the end of my purchasing anything more from OT. But hey, maybe they’re just changing up their beer.


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## DJiLAND (Dec 16, 2021)

empty chair = no one.
a library with AI technology? Sine AI will be released.


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## Casiquire (Dec 16, 2021)

What if we're totally off the mark. I doubt that they'd use "end of an era" for just a new library, it doesn't make sense. They wouldn't use it for the choirs as an endcap to their orchestral series; closed doors are bad for business. It probably wouldn't be about Kontakt either because that's a pretty negative message. I'm thinking subscription service, or some expansion of what SINE is capable of. Both of those are positive messages that an era of greater flexibility is ahead, etc.


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## jbuhler (Dec 16, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> What if we're totally off the mark. I doubt that they'd use "end of an era" for just a new library, it doesn't make sense. They wouldn't use it for the choirs as an endcap to their orchestral series; closed doors are bad for business. It probably wouldn't be about Kontakt either because that's a pretty negative message. I'm thinking subscription service, or some expansion of what SINE is capable of. Both of those are positive messages that an era of greater flexibility is ahead, etc.


It could also be the launching of an entire new line. The only issue there is about the only thing that would excite the crowds here is a choir or a new orchestral line (not that we’re the only maybe not even the primary audience for their announcement) and the latter would be a very shitty thing to do after having done a less than stellar port of the mains. Also it makes no sense with the four empty chairs.

I agree that they should open a new door if they are closing an existing door. And none of the speculations have really managed that.


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## studioj (Dec 16, 2021)

I’m gonna guess a new company name wo the word orchestral in it plus a new product under that name. Pure speculation of course


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## Vik (Dec 16, 2021)

Maybe they’ll offer free trials of all products, add subscriptions instead of only sales, and/or make all their libraries resellable.


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## tim727 (Dec 16, 2021)

After thinking about it further, it doesn't make sense that Berlin Choirs is the announcement. When you say an end of an error is occurring it also means the start of a new one is occurring. If they consider releasing Berlin Choirs as the end of an era it sort of implies that the error of their Berlin line is done, which is not really a great marketing message to send, especially with them probably relying on the ports to fuel Kontakt to SINE conversion.

It's gotta be something else.

Edit: the subscription idea is intriguing.


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## Michel Simons (Dec 16, 2021)

tim727 said:


> For such a popular franchise that surely still has possible areas to mine I think it's unlikely that they would put such a definitive and finite stamp on it, because that would basically preclude them from making an Ark 6 and I imagine they would rather keep that door open.


Ever heard of Ozzy Osbourne?


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## tim727 (Dec 16, 2021)

Michel Simons said:


> Ever heard of Ozzy Osbourne?


I know who he is and have a general image of in my head but that's the extent of my knowledge.


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2021)

tim727 said:


> That's true but why does that require a big announcement? It doesn't quite add up I think.


Fair enough... It is a speculation thread, so ultimately that’s just me stabbing in the dark. It could be anything really…


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## jcrosby (Dec 16, 2021)

Michel Simons said:


> Ever heard of Ozzy Osbourne?


Who???? 

Is he that guy that bites the heads off of bats and throws puppies into the audience while singing that satanic heavy metal racket?


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## Getsumen (Dec 16, 2021)

Isn't this not a big announcement? (As in whatever "end of an era" means is so important it warranted a special announcement) This would line up to be their standard annual keynote event timewise. OT have usually announced multiple things during their events, so end of an era could really be referring to multiple things, not just one release.


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## ag75 (Dec 16, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Teldex is being demo’d to make space for a mall.


Or a parking lot.


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## Loïc D (Dec 16, 2021)

Their prices will include VAT from now on.


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## KEM (Dec 16, 2021)

ag75 said:


> Or a parking lot.



Or maybe even… a mall parking lot


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## zimm83 (Dec 16, 2021)

Return to kontakt ! Return of customers.


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## Chungus (Dec 16, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> As I think about it it’s not terribly logical to do a big announcement about finally putting Kontakt behind you. So that points to a new library that brings something to completion. If that’s so, I’m going to go with the long awaited choir—Tallinn and Miroire show OT has been working on syllable timing in Sine. It’s still a bit wonky in Tallinn (I don’t have miroire and can’t report on how well the syllables workin that) so if we want to pass from rampant speculation to major worries, the syllables Berlin Choirs would be a place of major concern.


If there's gonna be a Berlin Choirs, I hope it'll contain standard vowel staccs/marcs in addition to syllable ones. I feel that's been a hole in OT's choir offerings thus far.


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## SZK-Max (Dec 17, 2021)

Turn into a cosmetics maker?


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## PaulieDC (Dec 17, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> New sample player.


With a return policy.


----------



## QuiteAlright (Dec 17, 2021)

I agree that there's a possibility of them launching a subscription service. But really the message is too vague for us to discern very much from it. Unless that picture has some clues that we haven't figured out yet, I don't think it will be very guessable.


----------



## Eptesicus (Dec 17, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> With a return policy.



Now that i could get behind. Seems it would be easy now they own SINE and the licenses completely?

I think developers that allow easy sales/transfers are wonderful. I sold some of my project sam stuff and it was so easy and the guys at project sam were brilliant.


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 17, 2021)

tim727 said:


> That's true but why does that require a big announcement? It doesn't quite add up I think.


cause they can offer a discount and get everyone into their ecosystem


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 17, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> Now that i could get behind. Seems it would be easy now they own SINE and the licenses completely?
> 
> I think developers that allow easy sales/transfers are wonderful. I sold some of my project sam stuff and it was so easy and the guys at project sam were brilliant.


I'm much more reluctant to purchase from developers that don't offer at least re sale and transfers of licenses.


----------



## Eptesicus (Dec 17, 2021)

QuiteAlright said:


> I agree that there's a possibility of them launching a subscription service. But really the message is too vague for us to discern very much from it. Unless that picture has some clues that we haven't figured out yet, I don't think it will be very guessable.



The most convincing guess so far that I have seen is that the four chairs represent the four arks.


----------



## Ilko Birov (Dec 17, 2021)

The end of orchestral libraries for OT.
The launch of their Ragtime Rascals Series.


----------



## FKVStudio (Dec 17, 2021)

@OrchestralTools

To be able to resell the libraries that we do not use to other users. No wait! Do not discriminate against any buyer by making him pay taxes that are not his due. No wait!

Better both! So I get back a little of the invested in a company that, although it makes good bookstores, treats and ignores its customers like garbage.


----------



## ScarletJerry (Dec 17, 2021)

They are actually releasing two new players to give users some alternatives to Sine. The players are called Cosine and Tangent - all libraries will be ported over in the next 5 years.


----------



## tcb (Dec 17, 2021)

LA Scoring Strings


----------



## DJiLAND (Dec 17, 2021)

ScarletJerry said:


> They are actually releasing two new players to give users some alternatives to Sine. The players are called Cosine and Tangent - all libraries will be ported over in the next 5 years.


Oh, I thought it was a saw and a square.


----------



## jamwerks (Dec 17, 2021)

The only difference between OT and VSL is that VSL has always had their own dedicated recording spaces. A Room like Teldex probably costs around $5k per day. Recording 200 days a year means one million per year. So I imagine they're in the process on builing their own headquarters with integrated halls, probably 2 or 3 of varying sizes.


----------



## Mr Sakitumi (Dec 17, 2021)

Maybe they have rights to record in a new space, so won’t be doing any more Teldex libraries?
maybe it’s Son…?or Warn…?or Abb..?or….? 🤔
.
or they’re just moving offices around the corner 😂


----------



## Paul Jelfs (Dec 17, 2021)

They often mention the "Start" of their Berlin series back in 2012 with the release of the WW, so I am inclined it think it will be the last in the Berlin chapter - Most likely what others have said, and probably a Choir library. 

They may well announce plans for their "new" series of orchestral libraries , with a stealth drop of the 1st in the series or a freebie etc.

Perhaps they are following Audio Imperia and getting in to hardware ?! Who knows lol


----------



## Vik (Dec 17, 2021)

jamwerks said:


> The only difference between OT and VSL is that VSL has always had their own dedicated recording spaces. A Room like Teldex probably costs around $5k per day. Recording 200 days a year means one million per year. So I imagine they're in the process on builing their own headquarters with integrated halls, probably 2 or 3 of varying sizes.


Building new recording studio with multiple halls? Wouldn’t it be a better idea to collaborate with United or one of the other existing studios in Sunset Blvd.?


----------



## jamwerks (Dec 17, 2021)

Vik said:


> Building new recording studio with multiple halls? Wouldn’t it be a better idea to collaborate with United or one of the other existing studios in Sunset Blvd.?


That would be just as, or even more, expensive. Building their own could probably be done for 2-3 years or their rental costs.


----------



## arafaratanran (Dec 17, 2021)

Maybe they just shot a meaningless picture and attached a stupid question to it, so that guys like you would create a thread wondering what the heck they are up to? Maybe that is the way marketing works today? But maybe everyone should focus on more important things vs supporting companies in their annoying marketing ... I just found this cute animal video on Facebook ... bye, bye!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 17, 2021)

arafaratanran said:


> Maybe they just shot a meaningless picture and attached a stupid question to it, so that guys like you would create a thread wondering what the heck they are up to? Maybe that is the way marketing works today? But maybe everyone should focus on more important things vs supporting companies in their annoying marketing ... I just found this cute animal video on Facebook ... bye, bye!


I am very sorry you didn't enjoy the idea. I thought it would be fun, but I can see now I've been fooled by the evil practices of capitalism and I deeply regret it now. Everyone, please stop!


----------



## Pixelpoet1985 (Dec 17, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> If it’s a choir, why are there only 4 chairs on the photo?


I also wish it's a choir. 

4 chairs could not only be linked to the four MAs, but also to the four main Berlin collections (even though there are more Berlin instruments, it's always the four main colours).


----------



## d.healey (Dec 17, 2021)

Robert_G said:


> Their marketing is almost as annoying as Spitfire


Your post is their marketing


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 17, 2021)

I find it super unlikely that the four chairs represent anything that abstract. It's something practical. Either there will be four speakers at the event and they'll be sitting there, or it's related to a quartet of some kind. Devs don't get nearly as abstract with this stuff as we do. Remember when Miroire was coming out and everyone was like "it looks like there's a skull in there! What does that represent?!" Nothing at all. They just used images that looked like they came from art back in that time period and the skull looked appropriate. Or when Spitfire posted a picture of stairs and a brick wall, the number of stairs had no meaning and it wasn't a Pink Floyd library, it was just a picture they took in the studio where they were recording.


----------



## arafaratanran (Dec 17, 2021)




----------



## jules (Dec 17, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> End of the SINE era. Hopefully going back to Kontakt. 😂


Ah ! You beat me to it !  Most probably moving from teldex...


----------



## LudovicVDP (Dec 17, 2021)

They are going to a subscription model...

I'm disappointed that nobody has done that joke yet. Are we not doing it anymore? 
VI-C, are you broken?


----------



## AndyP (Dec 17, 2021)

They are moving to Air Studios because that is now orphaned since Spitfire is recording at Abbey Road.
Teldex is being built into a stage for new standup comedian talent.


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 17, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> They are going to a subscription model...
> 
> I'm disappointed that nobody has done that joke yet. Are we not doing it anymore?
> VI-C, are you broken?


I mentioned a subscription, but i wasn't joking lol!


----------



## LudovicVDP (Dec 17, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I mentioned a subscription, but i wasn't joking lol!


Sorry I missed your post then...


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 17, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> Sorry I missed your post then...


I just think it's really likely


----------



## BuryYourBones (Dec 17, 2021)

I really hope it isn't a subscription model, or if it is, they don't have anything exclusive to subscribers and still offer a paid model. That would be a huge middle finger to everyone who has invested thousands into their libraries.


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 17, 2021)

I do have a feeling that they might be discontinuing the Kontakt versions for all of their sample libraries.
So the last chance you had to get the Kontakt version of the Berlin Series for a discount was the previous Black Friday sale.
Next sale, there might be no Kontakt version available. 
"End of an Era" sounded like that to me.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 17, 2021)

Maybe introduce a new product line: London series (recorded in AIR or Abbey Ro... wait a minute... hmmmmmm  )

but more seriously:
end of an era......an era of overpricing products (the whole industry is lowering prices, especially older libs).. i guess they will lower it permanently, like SA did for SSO.

Maybe even rent to own kind of thingy.. or subscriptions added, besides perpertual


----------



## tim727 (Dec 17, 2021)

arafaratanran said:


> Maybe they just shot a meaningless picture and attached a stupid question to it, so that guys like you would create a thread wondering what the heck they are up to? Maybe that is the way marketing works today? But maybe everyone should focus on more important things vs supporting companies in their annoying marketing ... I just found this cute animal video on Facebook ... bye, bye!


Ah the irony of the one person in the thread that complains about the fundamental purpose of the thread, thus perpetuating and strengthening the existence of the very thing they are railing against. Brilliant.

@Emmanuel Rousseau now that this guy has exposed the foolishness of our ways you should probably take the thread down


----------



## Evans (Dec 17, 2021)

I don't think "end of an era" is reasonable marketing for something like a new subscription offer. That doesn't fly.


----------



## Evans (Dec 17, 2021)

arafaratanran said:


> But maybe everyone should focus on more important things


Yes, please cut out these forum posts and go volunteer for a food bank.


----------



## BuryYourBones (Dec 17, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> I do have a feeling that they might be discontinuing the Kontakt versions for all of their sample libraries.
> So the last chance you had to get the Kontakt version of the Berlin Series for a discount was the previous Black Friday sale.
> Next sale, there might be no Kontakt version available.
> "End of an Era" sounded like that to me.


One can dream...it seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I prefer SINE to Kontakt in almost every way. There are definitely places SINE can improve like fixing the purge functionality, better mic merging, faster and less buggy library downloading, etc. but I'll still take it over Kontakt in its current state.


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 17, 2021)

BuryYourBones said:


> One can dream...it seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I prefer SINE to Kontakt in almost every way. There are definitely places SINE can improve like fixing the purge functionality, better mic merging, faster and less buggy library downloading, etc. but I'll still take it over Kontakt in its current state.


I'll start preferring SINE when it starts give us more control/customizability.

In regards to original sample players and how legatos are handled,
I felt that Spitfire may have a lead after looking at their recent release of AR2:IS.

Love how they added a slider to let the user customize the transition lengths.
I'm hoping it would motivate OT to add something similar to SINE (not just a volume slider).


----------



## Evans (Dec 17, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Agree, it’s got to be something BIG when they say “end of an era”.


I think a sub plan is certainly enormous, but then marketing should be more about the _start_ of a thing and less about the _end_ of one.


----------



## BuryYourBones (Dec 17, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> I'll start preferring SINE when it starts give us more control/customizability.
> 
> In regards to original sample players and how legatos are handled,
> I felt that Spitfire may have a lead after looking at their recent release of AR2:IS.
> ...


Oh yeah, AR2 looks/sounds absolutely killer. OT will have to keep up momentum.


----------



## h.s.j.e (Dec 17, 2021)

Do they already have an equity partner/hedge fund? Because if not, I could see them joining the NI/Izotope group.


----------



## Mr Sakitumi (Dec 17, 2021)

I wonder what the “Start of a New Era” will be then?


----------



## Eptesicus (Dec 17, 2021)

h.s.j.e said:


> Do they already have an equity partner/hedge fund? Because if not, I could see them joining the NI/Izotope group.



I doubt it's NI, considering they are moving away from kontakt.


----------



## zimm83 (Dec 17, 2021)

They can end whatever they want.
I keep composing with all my OT kontakt libraries. The Best out 
there for me.
Always returning to OT's libs. I think they stop selling kontakt libs to move 100% on SINE.


----------



## Michel Simons (Dec 17, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I am very sorry you didn't enjoy the idea. I thought it would be fun, but I can see now I've been fooled by the evil practices of capitalism and I deeply regret it now. Everyone, please stop!


You are a bad, bad person.



Pixelpoet1985 said:


> 4 chairs could not only be linked to the four MAs, but also to the four main Berlin collections (even though there are more Berlin instruments, it's always the four main colours).


Or maybe the four stooges.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

Mr Sakitumi said:


> I wonder what the “Start of a New Era” will be then?


Very good question, and point. 

Actually, I find their use of the wording 'The *END* of an *ERA*" instead of "The *BEGINNING* of a *NEW ERA*" a bit puzzling. I wonder why they chose to announce it in this manner ?


----------



## Akarin (Dec 17, 2021)

I have two theories that could fit. 

1. "In our continuous quest to play catch-up with Spitfire, we've noticed that, like them, we have a lot of customers. We've also noticed that customers are faster at finding issues than we are so, again like Spitfire, we are terminating the contracts of our QA people."

2. The last two Arks are ported to Sine and they are announcing the end of support on Kontakt for these two, marking a new life changing never seen before beginning.


----------



## Akarin (Dec 17, 2021)

studioj said:


> I’m gonna guess a new company name wo the word orchestral in it plus a new product under that name. Pure speculation of course



That makes sense too. Something like Orch8esfirecity.


----------



## Jon W (Dec 17, 2021)

Perhaps they will end third-party tracking of their visitors?


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

I doubt it's a new name, their name is already well established, why would they bother destroying their name that took years of building up, and branding, recognition, ..etc. ?


----------



## tim727 (Dec 17, 2021)

Akarin said:


> I have a theory that could fit.
> 
> "In our continuous quest to play catch-up with Spitfire, we've noticed that, like them, we have a lot of customers. We've also noticed that customers are faster at finding issues than we are so, again like Spitfire, we are terminating the contracts of our QA people."


Wait a sec, are you saying that OT has QA people???


----------



## tim727 (Dec 17, 2021)

After mulling this all over for admittedly far too long (in my defense I couldn't sleep all night due to a severe reaction to my COVID booster), I've come to the conclusion that the most likely scenario actually is an end to Kontakt. Previously I had considered it but thought it couldn't be that mostly because the timing seemed nearly impossible, considering they just ported over all their mains. After thinking about it further though, realistically I have no clue how long it takes to do one of these ports and they have had a lot of time to work on this. For all I know they have completed everything already but wanted to give the mains the spotlight on BF for marketing purposes ... only to follow shortly thereafter with this next announcement and perhaps a new sale?

Plus, it doesn't need to be the case that all the libs are actually ready yet. Perhaps they know that they'll all be done within a couple months for example and they know it's close enough that they have enough confidence to make an announcement about it?

What I see for the 21st is this:

(1) Either all libs are already SINE ported or they will be imminently. For instance perhaps the Arks are ready now and the others will follow within the next few weeks.
(2) Once a lib is ported the Kontakt version will *no longer* be available.
(3) I think there will be some other announcement, perhaps SINE related. Maybe they have a big update to SINE to address a lot of the issues it has ... or maybe it is something else like subscription/refunds/demoing libs etc ... something that maybe they can do now through SINE that would have been more complicated before in a mixed SINE/Kontakt world.

Another interesting point is that if this really is what the announcement will be, that could help at least somewhat explain some of the strange decisions that OT has seemed to have taken related to Kontakt <--> SINE cross-grading and such. For instance maybe they're not allowing crossgrades from SINE to Kontakt for their Berlin mains because they know that they are about to completely discontinue the Kontakt versions of those libs? Just a thought.


----------



## lettucehat (Dec 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I doubt it's a new name, their name is already well established, why would they bother destroying their name that took years of building up, and branding, recognition, ..etc. ?


Because their name is _Orchestral Tools_, which honestly is a little lame, especially considering how much they've branched out. Apple Computer became Apple, so it stands to reason Orchestral Tools might just call themselves "Tools".


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

A Name Change is not something I care about, not exciting at all for me, so I won't bother watching their Dec. 21st event, if that's the big announcement.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 17, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Because their name is _Orchestral Tools_, which honestly is a little lame, especially considering how much they've branched out. Apple Computer became Apple, so it stands to reason Orchestral Tools might just call themselves "Tools".


If I'm reading the double entendre that I think I am then this comment is sneakily brilliant!


----------



## tim727 (Dec 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> A Name Change is not something I care about, not exciting at all for me, so I won't bother watching their Dec. 21st event, if that's the big announcement.


Ah but you won't know if that's what it is unless you watch


----------



## lettucehat (Dec 17, 2021)

'tis a joke and they are not tools, of course. But I think there is a decent chance of a rebranding.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> A Name Change is not something I care about, not exciting at all for me, so I won't bother watching their Dec. 21st event, if that's the big announcement.


How will you know though before the announcement? Will you watch it to find out whether you should have not watched it? Or not watch it and wait to find out whether it’s worth watching?


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> How will you know though before the announcement? Will you watch it to find out whether you should have not watched it? Or not watch it and wait to find out whether it’s worth watching?


LOL.. I will just read your forum post after the announcement.


----------



## Chungus (Dec 17, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> How will you know though before the announcement? Will you watch it to find out whether you should have not watched it? Or not watch it and wait to find out whether it’s worth watching?


Obviously, The 'Culp is a time traveller. It's how he knows what libraries will be revealed, when.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> LOL.. I will just read your forum post after the announcement.


I’m traveling that day so will not be able to watch it.

They announced BSS without warning at last year’s event as I recall.


----------



## Evans (Dec 17, 2021)

The era of Tom Holkenborg Brass has come to an end. We begin again with... JXL Brass.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> They announced BSS without warning at last year’s event as I recall.


Yes, but why announce an 'End of an ERA', if it's a new library release ? 

They just released 'Andea' , so I'm not sure I would expect a new surprise library release, especially with the wording of the announcement.


----------



## Vik (Dec 17, 2021)

jamwerks said:


> That would be just as, or even more, expensive. Building their own could probably be done for 2-3 years or their rental costs.


I don't think they'll announce that they'll rent something.  'Collaborate' could mean several things, like eg. invest in a company. Anyway, if they want to strengthen the company, they should IMO lower their prices, beef up the QA process, offer subscribe-to-own, change the a-la-carte purchases so that they don't end up being a lot more expensive than usual purchases, and offer 30-day open purchase. Btw, that goes for all other companies as well.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 17, 2021)

They are merging with EastWest and will now be EWQLOT!


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 17, 2021)

I think they are going to start a new orchestral line in a dry space a la HO.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 17, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I think they are going to start a new orchestral line in a dry space a la HO.


They can do that very easily just by adding some Curtains, and carpeting to Teledex.


----------



## Mr Sakitumi (Dec 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> They can do that very easily just by adding some Curtains, and carpeting to Teledex.


Or they’re partnering with Izotope, to permanently add RX to Sine, to option de-verb any library…Tallinn being the first to get the ‘dry’ library treatment 😂


----------



## lgmcben (Dec 17, 2021)

They're being acquired by Netflix


----------



## jcrosby (Dec 17, 2021)

They're announcing a vaccine with 99.9999 efficacy called CosIne. [koh-seen]










I'll see myself out now


----------



## Nando Florestan (Dec 17, 2021)

1st theory: Maybe "end of an era" means they really tried, but were unable to finally fix the bugs in BSS, and they are giving up and selling pancakes instead

2nd theory: They have bought Audio Modeling and will be porting everything to the new SWINE engine.

3rd theory: They have decided to own up to their name Orchestral Tools and start selling...

- beaters
- bows
- tuning forks
- sheet music stands
- viola players
- etc.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Dec 17, 2021)

I can’t help thinking that the fact they mention L.A. in the announcement is significant…..


----------



## tim727 (Dec 17, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> I can’t help thinking that the fact they mention L.A. in the announcement is significant…..


Could be. I think they've done that before actually. Although I can't remember if the subsequent announcements had anything to do with LA.


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 17, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> I can’t help thinking that the fact they mention L.A. in the announcement is significant…..


It's not. They did the same for last year as well. It's probably just a common timezone of most of their customers





__





Orchestral Tools Premiere Event—Thursday, December 17 (+ a massive announcement…)


Hey everyone, 2020 has been a busy year for Orchestral Tools. We introduced the SINE Player, worked with Harry Gregson-Williams on Phoenix Orchestra, and with Jeff Russo on the TV and underscoring toolkit Modus. We took our first steps into studio production with LA Sessions, and traveled new...




vi-control.net


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 18, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> It's not. They did the same for last year as well. It's probably just a common timezone of most of their customers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True

Symphonic brass maybe?

2020
SUMMARY

* New Compression Format
* Berklee Collaboration & Education Discounts
* Improved Berlin Series in SINE Player
* Berlin Symphonic Strings with new Legato Approach
* Info about the sister company Scoring Berlin
* SINE Factory (their version of LABS = free stuff)


----------



## FlyingAndi (Dec 18, 2021)

So I just drove by Teldex...




Clearly no signs of anybody moving out.
Actually I don't get all this speculation.
Obviously OT is releasing a true legato lyrical soprano library featuring Tarja Turunen.


----------



## gedlig (Dec 18, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> Obviously OT is releasing a true legato lyrical soprano library featuring Tarja Turunen


Yes, please


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 18, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> So I just drove by Teldex...


Good work Agent Andi. Maybe OT is actually buying Teldex with all the funds from BF sales ...


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 18, 2021)

FlyingAndi said:


> So I just drove by Teldex...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


COULD YOU IMAGINE


----------



## Jackdaw (Dec 18, 2021)

Orthophedical Tools?


----------



## Tralen (Dec 18, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> 2nd theory: They have bought Audio Modeling and will be porting everything to the new SWINE engine.


----------



## Phaedraz (Dec 18, 2021)

I think they will finally allow other people to create libraries with Sine in a fierce competition with NI which will end the Kontakt era!


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2021)

Phaedraz said:


> I think they will finally allow other people to create libraries with Sine in a fierce competition with NI which will end the Kontakt era!


Very Interesting possibility. VSL didn't bother licensing their player, maybe OT sees an opportunity to do just that, but imho, their current player needs a lot of improvements to be ready for that, and if this is what it is, that would make OT the main licenser, kind of their version of Native Access, but based on SINE. 

Hmm.. Not a very far fetched possibility.


----------



## samphony (Dec 18, 2021)

A picture says more than a thousand words!


----------



## Kony (Dec 18, 2021)

The four chairs appear to be significant - could be the end of the era of 4 Arks. The timing also suggests an Ark 5 release.


----------



## Kony (Dec 18, 2021)

Or could be the graphic designer misread the brief and should have typed "end of the year" instead of end of an era


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 18, 2021)

Kony said:


> The four chairs appear to be significant - could be the end of the era of 4 Arks. The timing also suggests an Ark 5 release.


Timing-wise this is just their annual keynote event. Doesn't really imply anything. 
It's not Ark 5 for sure as that was still a "maybe in the future" idea


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2021)

samphony said:


> A picture says more than a thousand words!


But the picture says nothing special to me. Four chairs, facing the other direction, so ... What is it ?


----------



## tc9000 (Dec 18, 2021)

Could it be a string quartet?


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> But the picture says nothing special to me. Four chairs, facing the other direction, so ... What is it ?


MIDI-controlled musical chairs for your youngest kid's next birthday party. It's obvious.

🎉


----------



## Trash Panda (Dec 18, 2021)

Tom Holkenborg Strings release, marking the end of the TH/JXL line because he don’t truck with no woodwinds.


----------



## KEM (Dec 18, 2021)

AndyP said:


> They are moving to Air Studios because that is now orphaned since Spitfire is recording at Abbey Road.
> Teldex is being built into a stage for new standup comedian talent.



I honestly wouldn’t mind OT taking over Air Studios, I like them a lot more than Spitfire but I use Spitfire cause I love the sound of Air Studios


----------



## KEM (Dec 18, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Tom Holkenborg Strings release, marking the end of the TH/JXL line because he don’t truck with no woodwinds.



Actually Junkie does use woodwinds fairly often and he’s said himself that woodwinds are the most underdeveloped section as far as orchestral sampling goes and he wants to do his own woodwinds library

But that being said all I want is JXL Strings


----------



## Trash Panda (Dec 18, 2021)

KEM said:


> Actually Junkie does use woodwinds fairly often and he’s said himself that woodwinds are the most underdeveloped section as far as orchestral sampling goes and he wants to do his own woodwinds library
> 
> But that being said all I want is JXL Strings


I’ll bet you’re fun at parties.


----------



## Bluemount Score (Dec 18, 2021)

I'm hoping it's not Ark 5. I'm happy to own the whole collection, which I use very often (I in fact find all four very useful) but another release would give me the strong urge to spend hundreds again to keep the collection complete


----------



## Tralen (Dec 18, 2021)

Bluemount Score said:


> I'm hoping it's not Ark 5. I'm happy to own the whole collection, which I use very often (I in fact find all four very useful) but another release would give me the strong urge to spend hundreds again to keep the collection complete


Now that you stated that out loud, be prepared for Ark 5, 6, 7, 8...


----------



## KEM (Dec 18, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> I’ll bet you’re fun at parties.



I’ve never drank or smoked or done any drugs before so parties definitely aren’t my thing, I’d prefer to be at home on my computer


----------



## Bluemount Score (Dec 18, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Now that you stated that out loud, be prepared for Ark 5, 6, 7, 8...


I will run


----------



## Tralen (Dec 18, 2021)

Bluemount Score said:


> I will run


They will find you.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 18, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Now that you stated that out loud, be prepared for Ark 5, 6, 7, 8...


This would be fine if they were Kontakt. Then they could be in an NI bundle.


----------



## Tralen (Dec 18, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> This would be fine if they were Kontakt. Then they could be in an NI bundle.


It would probably be safer for @Bluemount Score as well. For some reason, things are easier to resist once they are in a NI bundle.


----------



## KEM (Dec 18, 2021)

I hope you guys aren’t forgetting that “end of an era” is probably just a marketing ploy and this might just be nothing more than a small kazoo library for the free version of SINE


I mean if Spitfire is anything to go by I’m sure that’ll be the case lol


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 18, 2021)

Tralen said:


> It would probably be safer for @Bluemount Score as well. For some reason, things are easier to resist once they are in a NI bundle.


No, not easier to resist. But a better deal! Why would I tell someone not to buy something? That's just wrong. Now "wait for a sale?" Yeah, that is me.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 18, 2021)

For those suggesting it's Ark 5 that's super unlikely. OT always goes with the same kind of marketing approach for the Arks and I doubt they're changing that up now.


----------



## Jax (Dec 18, 2021)

Whatever it is, I'd guess that it involves another sale of some sort. The intro price for Andea ends on the 21st, which may/may not be a coincidence. Personally, I wish it was a 50% discount on the Arks (like the sale back in 2019).

The four chairs could literally be seats for Hendrick and a few others from OT to discuss whatever "era" is concluding-- a "roundtable."


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2021)

This thread has 8K+ views already, and will have quite more views by Dec. 21st, OT's marketing strategy is surely working well.

The idea is to keep us guessing....


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 18, 2021)

Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale.


Is that a prayer ?


----------



## tim727 (Dec 18, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale. Please be an Ark sale.


+1


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 18, 2021)

When I saw people bringing up MA, I thought it might be possible that the MA series ends at MA4.
Or maybe they would release MA5 and end it there. 
And maybe start a new series?

" ***** Ark" or " Metropolis ***** " or maybe a completely new name.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> When I saw people bringing up MA, I thought it might be possible that the MA series ends at MA4.
> Or maybe they would release MA5 and end it there.
> And maybe start a new series?
> 
> " ***** Ark" or " Metropolis ***** " or maybe a completely new name.


Very good point.

Maybe it is the end of the Metropolis Ark Series Era, and they will be introducing a new series of libraries, that have a new name, and focus on other aspects of the orchestra. 

Actually, this is very good guess, since the 4 chairs in the photo are facing backwards, meaning.. Good Bye to the Four Arks, and something new will be introduced on Dec. 21st. and for those who are craving some of these Arks at a discount, maybe that's what they will offer you. A sweet deal on the Arks.

We shall see.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 18, 2021)

What can they really cover in a new series though? Berlin already covers the full bread and butter (apart from choirs) and the Arks fill in just about everything else.

Edit: in retrospect my view is somewhat myopic. They do have the JXL series after all. That said, I don't see them doing another series that replaces/approximates the Arks, specifically.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2021)

tim727 said:


> What can they really cover in a new series though? Berlin already covers the full bread and butter (apart from choirs) and the Arks fill in just about everything else.
> 
> Edit: in retrospect my view is somewhat myopic. They do have the JXL series after all. That said, I don't see them doing another series that replaces/approximates the Arks, specifically.


Another possibility, is they don't have a new series, they mentioned an 'End of an Era', not a beginning of a new Era, so another wild guess would be, the rest of the Metropolis Arks are now available in SINE format, and there will be no additional Metropolis Arks in the future. They might introduce a new series concept, but that might not be what they announce on Dec. 21st. 

So, Metropolis ARK 3 & 4 in SINE , and some attractive discount deals on the current Metropolis ARKs (1,2,3,4) in SINE. This is Pure speculation.


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## tim727 (Dec 18, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Another possibility, is they don't have a new series, they mentioned an 'End of an Era', not a beginning of a new Era, so another wild guess would be, the rest of the Metropolis Arks are now available in SINE format, and there will be no additional Metropolis Arks in the future. They might introduce a new series concept, but that might not be what they announce on Dec. 21st.
> 
> So, Metropolis ARK 3 & 4 in SINE , and some attractive discount deals on the current Metropolis ARKs (1,2,3,4) in SINE. This is Pure speculation.


It could be. That would definitely be my preference out of all the different theories that have been floated out there. To be honest in the last week or so I've been inches away from buying Ark 4 *for the full ~$620*. I would be _ecstatic_ if it went 50% off in a few days time.

I will say though, it feels sort of weird for the "end of an era" thing to be them basically saying that they're not making any more Arks. I think it would make more sense if they were announcing Ark 5, and then also saying that that will be the last one. Because without that, it feels more like a "negative announcement", if you get what I'm saying.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 18, 2021)

Imagine the disappointment on everyone’s face when the official announcement gets made. 

It’ll be an announcement for announcement for an announcement, just a never-ending, perpetual, infinite announcement for an announcement. 

OK. Take it easy on the reefer, Mike.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 18, 2021)

Hey! What if we all email them and ask for an Ark sale? Then maybe they’ll feel bad for us and our sample library addictions, and put the Arks up for sale once again!

Seriously, i smoked way too much weed tonight.


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 18, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Hey! What if we all email them and ask for an Ark sale? Then maybe they’ll feel bad for us and our sample library addictions, and put the Arks up for sale once again!
> 
> Seriously, i smoked way too much weed tonight.


Munchies making you hungry for sample libs now.



Mike Fox said:


> Imagine the disappointment on everyone’s face when the official announcement gets made.
> 
> It’ll be an announcement for announcement for an announcement, just a never-ending, perpetual, infinite announcement for an announcement.
> 
> OK. Take it easy on the reefer, Mike.


This is potentially going to happen lol. After all the 2020 event consisted of multiple announcements as well. (SINE factory, upcoming berklee collabs, Berlin Brass FF layer, etc.)

So who knows, your dream of an announcement for an announcement of an announcement can come true! (Although I don't think we'll have an announcement for an announcement of an announcement of an announcement)


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## tim727 (Dec 18, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Hey! What if we all email them and ask for an Ark sale? Then maybe they’ll feel bad for us and our sample library addictions, and put the Arks up for sale once again!
> 
> Seriously, i smoked way too much weed tonight.


So it seems! Last time I got high I got stuck in a time loop. Each iteration started at a slightly earlier point in the progression of events, but then culminated at the same moment. So in essence it was almost like I was experiencing time in reverse. Oh and also each one felt like it lasted an eternity ... so there was that too.

Hopefully yours is from a different batch, lol


----------



## shawnsingh (Dec 18, 2021)

Did we really make it 12 pages into this thread without anyone interpreting "era" to be about a period in music history? (Or maybe I missed it?)

Perhaps this is a baroque library, or a library that pays homage to a bygone era of film music..


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Dec 18, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> They’re being acquired by Spitfire!


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo...!


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi (Dec 18, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Something BIG. Something LIFECHANGING.


So you're saying it's something *H I S T O R I C*?


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## tim727 (Dec 18, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> Did we really make it 12 pages into this thread without anyone interpreting "era" to be about a period in music history? (Or maybe I missed it?)
> 
> Perhaps this is a baroque library, or a library that pays homage to a bygone era of film music..


Definitely not a baroque library. Have you heard of Miroire? 

It could be a lib based on some other era, granted. It seems unlikely though, mostly because (1) they did just come out with Miroire, and (2) "end of an era" is strange terminology to use for an announcement of a library from a specific era. I really doubt the marketing is meant to be so cryptic. I believe that some kind of era at OT is genuinely ending. Which one? That's what we don't know.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 18, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> Did we really make it 12 pages into this thread without anyone interpreting "era" to be about a period in music history? (Or maybe I missed it?)
> 
> Perhaps this is a baroque library, or a library that pays homage to a bygone era of film music..


A synthwave library would be rad!


----------



## Michel Simons (Dec 18, 2021)

End of an era just means that they are going to pack it in. It's that simple.


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## sheen (Dec 18, 2021)

It marks the end of the “Quadruple Round Robin Customer Response Algorithm”.

You will no longer get one of these responses:

1: The Gaslight - “I checked with the developers and this is supposed to be like that”
2: The Brush-Off – “We will give it to the developers”
3: The Truth – “No”
4: The Silent Treatment – “”

From now on, you will only receive The Truth.

...or maybe CSNY is getting back together.


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## muziksculp (Dec 18, 2021)

Maybe they mean the end of the LEGATO Era. 

You Know :


----------



## tim727 (Dec 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Maybe they mean the end of the LEGATO Era.
> 
> You Know :


To be fair I think that has already come with their Berlin Mains on SINE


----------



## Gensaii (Dec 19, 2021)

sheen said:


> It marks the end of the “Quadruple Round Robin Customer Response Algorithm”.
> 
> You will no longer get one of these responses:
> 
> ...


Kinda like NPCs😂


----------



## teclark7 (Dec 19, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> Did we really make it 12 pages into this thread without anyone interpreting "era" to be about a period in music history? (Or maybe I missed it?)
> 
> Perhaps this is a baroque library, or a library that pays homage to a bygone era of film music..


I agree, I think it is the end of a musical era and I am suggesting it is the end of large Western orchestral music. Too hard to get all those musicians together in the current pandemic environment. The four chairs in the picture are a dead giveaway.

Instead, OT is releasing a new 4 person orchestra sample library: Player 1 plays a violin, a mouth harmonica and has one foot on a bag pipe to achieve a monotonal drone. Player 2 plays 2 recorders - one through each nostril (just like we did when we were learning at school). Player 3 plays piano with the left hand, the harp with the right hand and sporadically sings soprano lines out of tune. Player 4 plays the full percussion ensemble running frantically from one instrument to the next whilst occassionally yelling obscenities when they accidentally hit their glock instead of their crotales.

Should make for interesting soundtracks to next year's feature films and TV shows!


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## prodigalson (Dec 19, 2021)

It could be significant that the 4 chairs are facing the type of screen you would watch if you were watching the dailies on a shoot. While I can’t tell what is on the screen, it could be significant that whatever they’re shooting appears to be in a warehouse type factory not unlike those seen in previous Ark trailers?…


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## jamwerks (Dec 19, 2021)

That mic placement says Cello or maybe Also sax...


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## Casiquire (Dec 19, 2021)

I'm not really speculating anymore, because i still think they're likelier to go with a positive and open ended message than a negative and closed one which means it's likelier that "end of an era" refers to the end of something we're not supposed to like (for example, they're giving us a subscription service therefore it's the "end of an era" of having to spend thousands for access to all of their instruments). 

So speculation aside, wouldn't it be nice if they came up with a way to unify the ARKs so that they're easily usable as one big library? I know it's not likely and in some ways not even possible, but I'm not too crazy about having to switch between different libraries with similar content searching endlessly for the right patch. How about, instead of all that, you load "choirs" then pick "epic, soft, or detailed" with the ability to layer them. Anyway it's a dream, but a dream that i enjoy lol


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## dts_marin (Dec 19, 2021)

they will simply rename the company to Meta Tools since they no longer make orchestral tools only


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## Tralen (Dec 19, 2021)

Is it the end of the era of "No Refunds policy even though we have our own player"?

Otherwise, I don't care.


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## RogiervG (Dec 19, 2021)

almost there.. just wait a bit longer.. and then.. the reveal on what they meant with "end of an era"


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## Aitcpiano (Dec 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Is it the end of the era of "No Refunds policy even though we have our own player"?
> 
> Otherwise, I don't care.


Yeah I'm quite put of buying anything anymore from the bigger developers who don't offer refunds or resales.


----------



## axb312 (Dec 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Is it the end of the era of "No Refunds policy even though we have our own player"?
> 
> Otherwise, I don't care.


That would be nice @OrchestralTools @Spitfire Team .


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 19, 2021)

Never gonna happen, gents.


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## Tralen (Dec 19, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Never gonna happen, gents.


It has happened on my end.

There is no Orchestral Tools library anymore on my computer and there won't ever be until the policy changes.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> It has happened on my end.
> 
> There is no Orchestral Tools library anymore on my computer and there won't ever be until the policy changes.


Pretty sure that policy won’t change until there’s some enforcing law that requires them to.


----------



## Vik (Dec 19, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Never gonna happen, gents.


I'm not so sure. If a few more of the biggies start offering refunds, other will follow. And, since VSL can offer a 14-day return, why shouldn't OT, SF etc be able to do the samet? Maybe they fear that they'll make less money this way, but I think many of us would try out more libraries properly if we could buy them with a 14-day refund option.


----------



## Tralen (Dec 19, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Pretty sure that policy won’t change until there’s some enforcing law that requires them to.


Or if it becomes economically undesirable to them.

For this reason, I will stand by my principles and won't remain subject to that policy. Specially when there are companies that behave very differently and offer comparable products (VSL, Samplemodeling, Audio Modeling, XLN Audio, Realitone, just to name a few).


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 19, 2021)

Vik said:


> I'm not so sure. If a few more of the biggies start offering refunds, other will follow. And, since VSL can offer a 14-day return, why shouldn't OT, SF etc be able to do the samet? Maybe they fear that they'll make less money this way, but I think many of us would try out more libraries properly if we could buy them with a 14-day refund option.


I doubt it. There really aren’t that many “biggies” to begin (a handful, maybe?), so I don’t see a domino effect happening bere.

VSL offering a return policy is a living testament of that.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Or if it becomes economically undesirable to them.
> 
> For this reason, I will stand by my principles and won't remain subject to that policy. Specially when there are companies that behave very differently and offer comparable products (VSL, Samplemodeling, Audio Modeling, XLN Audio, Realitone, just to name a few).


I think we would have seen policy changes occur by now if OT and the other bigwigs were being effected by it, and I’m pretty confident that they’d argue that having a return policy would be economically undesirable.

There’s a reason most developers don’t offer one.


----------



## Tralen (Dec 19, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> I think we would have seen policy changes occur by now if OT and the other bigwigs were being effected by it, and I’m pretty confident that they’d argue that having a return policy would be economically undesirable.


So be it.

But me being complacent with it is a whole other story.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> So be it.
> 
> But me being complacent with it is a whole other story.


To be clear, I’m all for some sort of a return or exchange policy, and believe it should be law. There’s ZERO customer protection when buying these expensive libraries, so I totally get where you’re coming from.

I just don’t see these companies budging any time soon, unfortunately.


----------



## G_Erland (Dec 19, 2021)

Everything ported to sine could be «end of an era» i suppose…moving from teldex + new lib from new hall could fit the wording…or if Im to really speculate, sine gets some new radically excellent technology which ends our current era, not litterally, just in terms of programming samples, unless Berkley and now DARPA..


----------



## dts_marin (Dec 19, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> Everything ported to sine could be «end of an era» i suppose…moving from teldex + new lib from new hall could fit the wording…or if Im to really speculate, sine gets some new radically excellent technology which ends our current era, not litterally, just in terms of programming samples, unless Berkley and now DARPA..


DARPA? Introducing Barack Obama Drones. Eclectically sampled unmanned soundscapes. When inspiration strikes seek cover.


----------



## Laurin Lenschow (Dec 19, 2021)

dts_marin said:


> When inspiration strikes seek cover.


I was looking for a short quote to put on my wall right next to my composing-desk.
I think I just found it.


----------



## G_Erland (Dec 19, 2021)

dts_marin said:


> DARPA? Introducing Barack Obama Drones. Eclectically sampled unmanned soundscapes. When inspiration strikes seek cover.


I have an old LP of army sound fx actually, its like track 2 (name of plane): «napalm run».


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 19, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Never gonna happen, gents.


It should happen.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 19, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Or if it becomes economically undesirable to them.
> 
> For this reason, I will stand by my principles and won't remain subject to that policy. Specially when there are companies that behave very differently and offer comparable products (VSL, Samplemodeling, Audio Modeling, XLN Audio, Realitone, just to name a few).


Same here. If VSL can do it then why can OT and Spitfire do it. I really hate the policy, especially the no resale.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 19, 2021)

dts_marin said:


> they will simply rename the company to Meta Tools since they no longer make orchestral tools only


As an investor in Facebook this nearly made me spit out my drink!


----------



## Trash Panda (Dec 19, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Same here. If VSL can do it then why can OT and Spitfire do it. I really hate the policy, especially the no resale.


They can do it, they just don’t want to.


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 19, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> The most convincing guess so far that I have seen is that the four chairs represent the four arks.


I wouldn't be surprised if the Ark series was the announcement, not because of the Ark libraries themselves, but does anyone remember when they were about to release BWW revive, and they ran a sale on the original BWW and said the price would be good until it was out of stock? Basically a marketing move for a deadline since it's digital but it was spoken of as if it was a product on a shelf, and then it would no longer be available. if they have a totally new "thing" coming out to replace the existing, what better way to get a surge of sales before that happens... a special bundle price on all 4, or whatever you don't own. Much better than simply taking it offline with no fanfare. Then they can offer the 4-ark-owners a special price on the new thing, whatever it is.

Total speculation. This is the goofball who also said that the main Berlin libraries probably wouldn't be on SINE until next year.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 19, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the Ark series was the announcement, not because of the Ark libraries themselves, but does anyone remember when they were about to release BWW revive, and they ran a sale on the original BWW and said the price would be good until it was out of stock? Basically a marketing move for a deadline since it's digital but it was spoken of as if it was a product on a shelf, and then it would no longer be available. if they have a totally new "thing" coming out to replace the existing, what better way to get a surge of sales before that happens... a special bundle price on all 4, or whatever you don't own. Much better than simply taking it offline with no fanfare. Then they can offer the 4-ark-owners a special price on the new thing, whatever it is.
> 
> Total speculation. This is the goofball who also said that the main Berlin libraries probably wouldn't be on SINE until next year.


If you're suggesting they're taking the Arks offline, that's essentially inconceivable


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 19, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> They can do it, they just don’t want to.


Bingo


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 19, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the Ark series was the announcement, not because of the Ark libraries themselves, but does anyone remember when they were about to release BWW revive, and they ran a sale on the original BWW and said the price would be good until it was out of stock? Basically a marketing move for a deadline since it's digital but it was spoken of as if it was a product on a shelf, and then it would no longer be available. if they have a totally new "thing" coming out to replace the existing, what better way to get a surge of sales before that happens... a special bundle price on all 4, or whatever you don't own. Much better than simply taking it offline with no fanfare. Then they can offer the 4-ark-owners a special price on the new thing, whatever it is.
> 
> Total speculation. This is the goofball who also said that the main Berlin libraries probably wouldn't be on SINE until next year.


While it's not a physical product on a shelf, they *do* need to pre-pay for a certain number of kontakt licenses so there is a stock of licenses prepaid that is about to evaporate into the ether if they don't sell them.

The more I know about Kontakt the more I'm convinced that it's to blame for normalizing some of our least favorite practices from devs.


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 19, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> While it's not a physical product on a shelf, they *do* need to pre-pay for a certain number of kontakt licenses so there is a stock of licenses prepaid that is about to evaporate into the ether if they don't sell them.
> 
> The more I know about Kontakt the more I'm convinced that it's to blame for normalizing some of our least favorite practices from devs.


Oh, right, the Kontakt license... didn't know they had to prepay. Thanks for the update!


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 19, 2021)

tim727 said:


> If you're suggesting they're taking the Arks offline, that's essentially inconceivable


I hope you are 100% right! Good grief, we just need the announcement so we can concentrate om other things.


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 19, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> Oh, right, the Kontakt license... didn't know they had to prepay. Thanks for the update!


Granted it's not like they are paying the full price of the library, it's a small fee per license, but they're incentivized to buy a lot at one time so there's real sunk cost involved


----------



## prodigalson (Dec 19, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Same here. If VSL can do it then why can OT and Spitfire do it. I really hate the policy, especially the no resale.


VSL can do it because they use a dongle for the license that needs to be verified via elicenser so there is a way for them to invalidate your license even if you've downloaded the product. OT and Spitfire can't do this so once you've downloaded and installed the libraries there's no way to stop you from being able to use them. Although, theoretically, with SINE and all its store/license functionality, there should be a way for OT to do it but it would likely require your machine to be online. 

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm not defending them, I'm just explaining my understanding of the logisitics.


----------



## tc9000 (Dec 20, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the Ark series was the announcement, not because of the Ark libraries themselves, but does anyone remember when they were about to release BWW revive, and they ran a sale on the original BWW and said the price would be good until it was out of stock? Basically a marketing move for a deadline since it's digital but it was spoken of as if it was a product on a shelf, and then it would no longer be available. if they have a totally new "thing" coming out to replace the existing, what better way to get a surge of sales before that happens... a special bundle price on all 4, or whatever you don't own. Much better than simply taking it offline with no fanfare. Then they can offer the 4-ark-owners a special price on the new thing, whatever it is.
> 
> Total speculation. This is the goofball who also said that the main Berlin libraries probably wouldn't be on SINE until next year.


Please be this. But please also don't be this. A sale on Arks on Kontakt with 'complete the set' deals would be... OOOOF hhahaaha. I think my wallet just shivered a little bit.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 20, 2021)

+1 for Arks sale, including the kontakt versions!


----------



## handz (Dec 20, 2021)

14 pages of discussion, guys guys.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 20, 2021)

the more speculation i read, the lesser interrested i become. (maybe i learned from Spitfire Audio marketing trickery: lots of hype (mystical statements and such), but when revealed, the products are not living up the hype, in many cases anyway)


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

handz said:


> 14 pages of discussion, guys guys.


I guess it shows how many people around here (myself included) are rather obsessed with OT.


----------



## zimm83 (Dec 20, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> the more speculation i read, the lesser interrested i become. (maybe i learned from Spitfire Audio marketing trickery: lots of hype (mystical statements and such), but when revealed, the products are not living up the hype, in many cases anyway)


Exactly. Excellent.


----------



## sheen (Dec 20, 2021)

AI driven modeling


----------



## Tralen (Dec 20, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> the more speculation i read, the lesser interrested i become. (maybe i learned from Spitfire Audio marketing trickery: lots of hype (mystical statements and such), but when revealed, the products are not living up the hype, in many cases anyway)


From this perspective, threads like this are then really useful.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 20, 2021)

handz said:


> 14 pages of discussion, guys guys.


We're bored. It's been mostly quiet around here since black Friday finished.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 20, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> the more speculation i read, the lesser interrested i become. (maybe i learned from Spitfire Audio marketing trickery: lots of hype (mystical statements and such), but when revealed, the products are not living up the hype, in many cases anyway)


Our plan is compete! BWAHAHAHA!

_(All the other developers) _


----------



## juliandoe (Dec 20, 2021)

It's a game-changer. OT is switching on the Turbo Boost! ⚡


----------



## Laurin Lenschow (Dec 20, 2021)

juliandoe said:


> It's a game-changer. OT is switching on the Turbo Boost! ⚡


Introducing... turbo legato!


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 20, 2021)

Tralen said:


> From this perspective, threads like this are then really useful.


depends from which angle you look 
for me it's potentially good, keeping money on my bank account longer 
for OT, this could mean one customer not buying it...


----------



## Tralen (Dec 20, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> depends from which angle you look
> for me it's potentially good, keeping money on my bank account longer
> for OT, this could mean one customer not buying it...


Exactly, let's deplete the hype on this thread so that no one is fooled any further by it.


----------



## Nando Florestan (Dec 20, 2021)




----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

I wonder if the big announcement tomorrow is going to make us happy, or sad ?


----------



## Reid Rosefelt (Dec 20, 2021)

To celebrate our acquisition by InMusic, we are very excited to announce that we are migrating all our libraries from SINE to the Gorilla Engine.

Our first release on the Gorilla platform will be the most long-awaited library of all time.


----------



## Zamenhof (Dec 20, 2021)

Inside sources tell me that OT will announce a SINE bundle with all four ARKs at half price.

(My inside sources are the voices inside my head and they’re prone to be wrong…)


----------



## Trash Panda (Dec 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I wonder if the big announcement tomorrow is going to make us happy, or sad ?


More likely than not, it will make most here ambivalent.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

Zamenhof said:


> Inside sources tell me that OT will announce a SINE bundle with all four ARKs at half price.
> 
> (My inside sources are the voices inside my head and they’re prone to be wrong…)


Can you ask the voices in your head if OT will also have an improved version of SINE that will be released soon, and all of the Berlin Main SINE libraries will get a nice updated with lots of improvements very soon ? 

So, Metrop. Arks 3 & 4 will be SINE ready, and at a nice bundle discount for all four. Cool.

Many THANKS to the voices in your head.


----------



## KEM (Dec 20, 2021)

Zamenhof said:


> Inside sources tell me that OT will announce a SINE bundle with all four ARKs at half price.
> 
> (My inside sources are the voices inside my head and they’re prone to be wrong…)



Alexa play Voices by Motionless In White


----------



## Trash Panda (Dec 20, 2021)

Guys and gals, we've been thinking about this all wrong. The end of an era marks the end of the SINE player and the beginning of their all new player, the SAWTOOTH Player.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

Tralen said:


> Exactly, let's deplete the hype on this thread so that no one is fooled any further by it.


To be honest, I don't think I've seen any hype on this thread at all. It's more like speculation, and those are two very different things.


----------



## szczaw (Dec 20, 2021)

Swine Player is coming up. A total CPU hog.


----------



## Lilwing (Dec 20, 2021)

I enjoy so much reading this thread, it's very funny.
But this announcement kind of makes me anxious.
Where will they announce their news? I don't have Facebook, maybe they will post on here?

As for the speculations, I don't really know, I mostly fear a total death of their Kontakt libraries.
But hopefully it will come with a big sale, although I'm not sure they will do a Kontakt sale because they want by all means to promote the Sine player.

I'm not so sure I would enjoy a subscription plan coming out, considering the money I had to spend already on their (amazing though) libraries.
But it would be amazing for their new customers!


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

Lilwing said:


> I enjoy so much reading this thread, it's very funny.
> But this announcement kind of makes me anxious.
> Where will they announce their news? I don't have Facebook, maybe they will post on here?


I'm pretty certain that they will post multiple places, including here. 


> As for the speculations, I don't really know, I mostly fear a total death of their Kontakt libraries.
> But hopefully it will come with a big sale, although I'm not sure they will do a Kontakt sale because they want by all means to promote the Sine player.


Although your logic theoretically makes sense, it goes against what the actual trend has been. So far, every library ported over to SINE has had a 50% off sale to celebrate its porting (in both SINE and Kontakt). If the actual announcement is the death of Kontakt then indeed they may not continue this. But otherwise it's a very safe bet that they will, especially since they _just_ did it for their mains.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Dec 20, 2021)

The final and last installment of the Ark series?
Would be the right time of the year...

Shame on me for supporting their advertising tactics and bumping the thread...


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

DarkestShadow said:


> The final and last installment of the Ark series?
> Would be the right time of the year...
> 
> Shame on me for supporting their advertising tactics and bumping the thread...


And what would the last Ark add that's missing ?


----------



## Evans (Dec 20, 2021)

(YouTube screencap)


----------



## Tralen (Dec 20, 2021)

tim727 said:


> To be honest, I don't think I've seen any hype on this thread at all. It's more like speculation, and those are two very different things.


Oh, I'm speaking about the upcoming hype.


----------



## OrchestralTools (Dec 20, 2021)

See you all tomorrow! 

6pm (Berlin), 9am (LA).


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

I'm getting a bit Tense waiting for this 'The end of an Era' event to finally begin tomorrow.


----------



## Trash Panda (Dec 20, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> See you all tomorrow!
> 
> 6pm (Berlin), 9am (LA).



No, no you won't. Bad marketing team! Bad! Bad! No more teasers!


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 20, 2021)

Lilwing said:


> I enjoy so much reading this thread, it's very funny.
> But this announcement kind of makes me anxious.
> Where will they announce their news? I don't have Facebook, maybe they will post on here?
> 
> ...


The actual announcement will be a lot of boring blah, blah, blah, something interesting, blah, blah, thank you for listening. 

Much better to wait for the written announcement that can be skimmed through to skip the boring parts. And it probably will be something to the effect of everything should be ported to Sine by July and there will be no more Kontakt versions for sale once they sell out of the remaining serial numbers. So, end of the Kontakt era. Plus 2 new libraries. One will be some ethnic/renaissance library and the other will be some soundset/ambient thing. 

Let's see how right I get it.


----------



## daan1412 (Dec 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> (YouTube screencap)


Looks like the slogan is in Metropolis font here. It wasn't the case for the initial image.


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Dec 20, 2021)

I really thought they were getting a head start on marketing products for after the end of the human era by hosting a 100,000 ant orchestra on those 4 chairs....

A bit dark... perhaps I need to put a little more Happy in the Holidays. Ha!


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

daan1412 said:


> Looks like the slogan is in Metropolis font here. It wasn't the case for the initial image.


Hmm I think you're right!


----------



## Markastellor (Dec 20, 2021)

daan1412 said:


> Looks like the slogan is in Metropolis font here. It wasn't the case for the initial image.


Shrew observation, Dann. It is similar. But there is no dot in the middle of the O...course, maybe they just left that out to keep it from being a dead giveaway.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

If it somehow is a new Ark ... what could it even be? I know that there are theoretically different options but off the top of my head I can't think of anything that would be very obviously compelling (that is clearly missing from 1-4 currently).


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 20, 2021)

What's weird are the cameras on tracks. why do the cameras need to move while filming. That is usually the only reason for cameras on tracks. A Vertigo based library? Get us dizzy going in circles?


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 20, 2021)

tim727 said:


> If it somehow is a new Ark ... what could it even be? I know that there are theoretically different options but off the top of my head I can't think of anything that would be very obviously compelling (that is clearly missing from 1-4 currently).


That's how it feels every time though. They could always go with enormous ensembles, soloists, more unusual instruments and articulations, unusual combinations of instruments and colors, etc.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Dec 20, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The actual announcement will be a lot of boring blah, blah, blah, something interesting, blah, blah, thank you for listening.
> 
> Much better to wait for the written announcement that can be skimmed through to skip the boring parts. And it probably will be something to the effect of everything should be ported to Sine by July and there will be no more Kontakt versions for sale once they sell out of the remaining serial numbers. So, end of the Kontakt era. Plus 2 new libraries. One will be some ethnic/renaissance library and the other will be some soundset/ambient thing.
> 
> Let's see how right I get it.


This is the most sensible thing anyone has proposed.


----------



## Jax (Dec 20, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> What's weird are the cameras on tracks. why do the cameras need to move while filming. That is usually the only reason for cameras on tracks. A Vertigo based library? Get us dizzy going in circles?


Slow moving cameras can make a video a little bit more interesting to watch. And like I said before, it looks like a round table.

My final guess would be:
- Ark 5 (SINE only)
- All prior Arks now on SINE
- 50% off Arks 1-4 for around 2 weeks


----------



## daan1412 (Dec 20, 2021)

tim727 said:


> If it somehow is a new Ark ... what could it even be? I know that there are theoretically different options but off the top of my head I can't think of anything that would be very obviously compelling (that is clearly missing from 1-4 currently).


Maybe a really extensive collection of effects and some rare articulations, weird/unusual instruments? I don't know, but I think they could come up some concept that fills the gaps. Maybe solo instruments with some brutal fff articulations, that would be cool.

Anyway, at this point I would say this could be the announcement of Ark 5 + 1-4 coming to Sine. If that's the case, I'm excited, because I've been waiting a long time to get Metropolis and that could be good opportunity.


----------



## StefanoM (Dec 20, 2021)

1) you leave teldex, maybe Germany?  ( End of an Era)
2) Ark 5 or new JXL recordered in the new location..

Anyway, I Hope Ark 5 or new JXL


----------



## Lassi Tani (Dec 20, 2021)

Perhaps they discontinue Ark 1 with a huge sale, and a few days after it they release Ark One.


----------



## Chungus (Dec 20, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> What's weird are the cameras on tracks. why do the cameras need to move while filming. That is usually the only reason for cameras on tracks. A Vertigo based library? Get us dizzy going in circles?


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> That's how it feels every time though. They could always go with enormous ensembles, soloists, more unusual instruments and articulations, unusual combinations of instruments and colors, etc.


True. You have a point. And now that you mention soloists ... I could totally see that being a thing.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

It will be fun to see how close we got to guessing what they have to announce tomorrow.


----------



## KEM (Dec 20, 2021)

I personally am all for an Ark 5, that’d be really cool to see


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

KEM said:


> I personally am all for an Ark 5, that’d be really cool to see


I doubt that's what this is all about.


----------



## sheen (Dec 20, 2021)

Doug Rogers? Hollywood ? ...Opus?


----------



## Laurin Lenschow (Dec 20, 2021)

I think the "OT is leaving Teldex"-theory can be debunked, because (to my knowledge) it is semi-confirmed that more jxl libraries are coming and it would not make much sense to record them in different rooms.


----------



## jadedsean (Dec 20, 2021)

You know, sometimes I consider myself as a creative person and sometimes not so much but, for me this is the problem. Consider this, we are composer’s or we aspire to be so, recently I came to the realisation that, I read more into these threads and buy more products than I actually need or compose with. 

Hopefully I am not generalising here but, it’s crazy how much time we spend on these forums, reading about the next big thing or as many companies like to say, “game changer products”. It is a marketers wet dream. I know this is a discussion possibly for another thread but, I started on page 1 and managed to get to page 3 before i thought, get back to work, this is only taking me away from the very thing I should be doing. 

Am I alone here or is this something people can relate too?


----------



## JF (Dec 20, 2021)

I hope they bring back Sascha for the walkthrough narration.


----------



## sheen (Dec 20, 2021)

One has the subscription platform, location, stable player...but legacy sounds...the other has....


----------



## sheen (Dec 20, 2021)

...the third guy brings the AI


----------



## Marsen (Dec 20, 2021)

JF said:


> I hope they bring back Sacha for the walkthrough narration.


You mean Sascha Knorr?

I think, he is one of the guys, sitting on this chairs, OT just posted. *I may be wrong though.
He does excellent walkthrough's and scores.


----------



## sheen (Dec 20, 2021)

...or the 3rd guy is Sacha (who is great!)...


----------



## JF (Dec 20, 2021)

Marsen said:


> You mean Sascha Knorr?
> 
> I think, he is one of the guys, sitting on this chairs, OT just posted. *I may be wrong though.
> He does excellent walkthrough's and scores.


Yes. Sascha Knorr.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

jadedsean said:


> You know, sometimes I consider myself as a creative person and sometimes not so much but, for me this is the problem. Consider this, we are composer’s or we aspire to be so, recently I came to the realisation that, I read more into these threads and buy more products than I actually need or compose with.
> 
> Hopefully I am not generalising here but, it’s crazy how much time we spend on these forums, reading about the next big thing or as many companies like to say, “game changer products”. It is a marketers wet dream. I know this is a discussion possibly for another thread but, I started on page 1 and managed to get to page 3 before i thought, get back to work, this is only taking me away from the very thing I should be doing.
> 
> Am I alone here or is this something people can relate too?


I understand where you're coming from, but I think people also tend to get very caught up in what they "should" be doing. When it comes down to it, spending time on VIC is (generally) fun and engaging. That's why we're here. I'm assuming it's why you're here as well. Does it take time away from actually making music? Yes. But I could also argue that making music takes time away from VIC. The point is that we all have a number of different things that we value. Although I'm sure for most of us making music is very high on the list, taking a breather and enjoying a sense of community with like-minded individuals also has its own value. The key is finding the right balance between the two that feels "right". As for me right now I'm sitting at my computer working on my new orchestral piece, delighting in the progress I'm making ... and _also _finding the time to check in on this thread every ten minutes or so and enjoy the rampant speculation  The best of both worlds!


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

JF said:


> I hope they bring back Sacha for the walkthrough narration.


I hope so too. I've experienced enough egregious American mispronunciation of Italian words for a life time (I speak Italian as well which makes it even worse...)


----------



## sheen (Dec 20, 2021)

forgettaboutit


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> GAS is a deadly weapon. Self-defence is required!


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

Does OT own the Teledex Stage ?


----------



## KEM (Dec 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Does OT own the Teledex Stage ?



I’d imagine they don’t, they probably just rent it out


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 20, 2021)

Evans said:


> (YouTube screencap)


Oh dear, so I’m going to get dizzy watching all the circular tracking shots for this, aren’t I?


----------



## shawnsingh (Dec 20, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I hope so too. I've experienced enough egregious American mispronunciation of Italian words for a life time (I speak Italian as well which makes it even worse...)


For what it's worth, from my experience living in the U.S., I don't think most musicians here would pronounce music terminology like the OT video narrator does.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

KEM said:


> I’d imagine they don’t, they probably just rent it out


So, maybe they have purchased a new recording hall/stage, so they don't have to continue renting Teledex, except when they need to do that ?


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

shawnsingh said:


> For what it's worth, from my experience living in the U.S., I don't think most musicians here would pronounce music terminology like the OT video narrator does.


I agree. His pronunciation is uncommonly bad and probably below average.


----------



## juliandoe (Dec 20, 2021)

Laurin Lenschow said:


> I think the "OT is leaving Teldex"-theory can be debunked, because (to my knowledge) it is semi-confirmed that more jxl libraries are coming and it would not make much sense to record them in different rooms.


The beauty of Teldex is that blends very well with almost every other sound stage


----------



## Evans (Dec 20, 2021)

The End of an Era is the third studio album by Australian rapper Iggy Azalea. It was released on 13 August 2021 through Bad Dreams Records and Empire Distribution, with the deluxe edition following on 17 September 2021. Taking inspiration from the end of her 20s for the title, Azalea stated that she wanted the album to be a "time capsule" of that decade of her life. The End of an Era includes guest appearances from Bia, Sophia Scott and Ellise on the standard edition, Alice Chater and Tyga on the deluxe edition. Production was handled by Azalea's frequent collaborator J. White Did It and several others.


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 20, 2021)

jadedsean said:


> You know, sometimes I consider myself as a creative person and sometimes not so much but, for me this is the problem. Consider this, we are composer’s or we aspire to be so, recently I came to the realisation that, I read more into these threads and buy more products than I actually need or compose with.
> 
> Hopefully I am not generalising here but, it’s crazy how much time we spend on these forums, reading about the next big thing or as many companies like to say, “game changer products”. It is a marketers wet dream. I know this is a discussion possibly for another thread but, I started on page 1 and managed to get to page 3 before i thought, get back to work, this is only taking me away from the very thing I should be doing.
> 
> Am I alone here or is this something people can relate too?


I know from my quantity of posts you'd think I'm deranged and obsessed with this place but i promise I'm ok and this isn't taking over my actual social life. I come here almost exclusively when I'm at work bored to tears and it's nice to break the boredom by getting passionate about music making, one of my favorite things in life. But when I'm not at work, I'm actually making music, and it would be almost painful to break that flow to come post here. I really hope that everyone else here has a healthy relationship with this forum and isn't in a dark place where this is replacing their real interest. Forums are totally addictive, and so is sample buying. 

If you or anyone else starts feeling like that's happening, something that's worked for me in the past to curb harmful habits has been to direct the obsession to something beneficial. Alan Belkin has a series on counterpoint that takes you from the basics all the way up to fugue and rounds. Ryan Leach has a series about the eight orchestral textures (or go straight to the source and buy the book it's based on. I did, and find it really interesting). A beginner-to-intermediate composer could watch both series ten times and still learn. Or if you're already an expert on all of it, pick up a new real instrument. It scratches the "must buy" itch but is beneficial to your writing in a way no library can be.


----------



## Evans (Dec 20, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I come here almost exclusively when I'm at work bored to tears and it's nice to break the boredom by getting passionate about music making, one of my favorite things in life.


I have sympathy for this. Work for me includes pockets of intense meetings followed by significantly less intense, much longer meetings with people like me making decisions about things we all know very little about.

VI-Control is my sane place during meetings or in my hand when my kid is watching TV, playing a game, or reading a book and I want to be in her general vicinity to hang out.

For what it's worth, I appreciate your posts here. You seem like a very reasonable person.


----------



## river angler (Dec 20, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> No more Kontakt libraries. Eveything ported to Sine? Ark 5, the final chapter? Berlin Choir, the completion of the Berlin series?


IMO it was a big mistake when they started bringing out new libraries solely available on SINE especially for the live performing artist who needs to mix and match sounds from different developers within midi. Kontakt is the obvious platform for this as well as being able to create multi developer instrument patches of course for compositional use.


----------



## Evans (Dec 20, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Goodness. Do you do my job?


Yes.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 20, 2021)

I definitely feel like i spend too much time here, but since I work from home I kinda have the freedom to do so. 

I mean, a lot of people are on FB, insta, and tik tok all the time, so I figure VI-C is my social media outlet.


----------



## Evans (Dec 20, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Lol. IT Architect?


Nah, I'm not smart enough for anything with "architect" in it. I run a couple of teams of product managers at a software company.


----------



## dunamisstudio (Dec 20, 2021)

OrchestralTools said:


> See you all tomorrow!
> 
> 6pm (Berlin), 9am (LA).





Trash Panda said:


> No, no you won't. Bad marketing team! Bad! Bad! No more teasers!


LOL They're like Spitfire's now, probably laughing at all us while we sit here and speculate. 



dzilizzi said:


> The actual announcement will be a lot of boring blah, blah, blah, something interesting, blah, blah, thank you for listening.
> 
> Much better to wait for the written announcement that can be skimmed through to skip the boring parts. And it probably will be something to the effect of everything should be ported to Sine by July and there will be no more Kontakt versions for sale once they sell out of the remaining serial numbers. So, end of the Kontakt era. Plus 2 new libraries. One will be some ethnic/renaissance library and the other will be some soundset/ambient thing.
> 
> Let's see how right I get it.


Best one I've read so far.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 20, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> I suspect I'm not smart enough either, but shhhhh. Interesting how nearly everyone on here that's not a pro is in IT.


Outside of music, my background is in A/V, but I can’t count the number of times I got dragged into IT, namely desktop support.


----------



## Evans (Dec 20, 2021)

Wait... has anyone guessed NFTs?


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 20, 2021)

river angler said:


> IMO it was a big mistake when they started bringing out new libraries solely available on SINE especially for the live performing artist who needs to mix and match sounds from different developers within midi. Kontakt is the obvious platform for this as well as being able to create multi developer instrument patches of course for compositional use.


I’m sure OT doesn’t want to be beholden to NI, which is looking increasingly prescient, and they certainly don’t want to support two versions of any library over the long haul.


----------



## river angler (Dec 20, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I’m sure OT doesn’t want to be beholden to NI, which is looking increasingly prescient, and they certainly don’t want to support two versions of any library over the long haul.


Well... their loss


----------



## lettucehat (Dec 20, 2021)

Honestly, Doug Rogers as the guy on the right is pretty compelling. I feel like a lot of this comes down to who that is.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

Maybe they are switching to the OPUS Player 

Which is an awesome player.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 20, 2021)

river angler said:


> Well... their loss


Not really.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 20, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Not really.


You’re right - it’s our loss.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 20, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> You’re right - it’s our loss.


Not for everyone. I recognize Sine’s shortcomings. I still prefer them to Kontakt’s.


----------



## NoamL (Dec 20, 2021)

I think it is not a new ARK because otherwise they would hold the event in Teldex (if possible). Yet I suspect it's not about the ARKs moving to SINE because you can already buy 1+2 in SINE.

So why the ARK font? It's anyone's guess....

Maybe this announcement is about the entire company reorienting to SINE and away from Kontakt, which isn't really news because every major developer is jumping ship as fast as they can. This will probably end up being some kind of "We're leaving Kontakt & NI forever! Hooray! ..... [world's longest pause] .... please clap" sort of deal.

There are no features a new sampler can offer pro composers that will make that sampler competitive unless the new sampler also has the rock solid stability of Kontakt 5+6.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

NoamL said:


> This will probably end up being some kind of "We're leaving Kontakt & NI forever!


But we already know that. They are not developing for Kontakt. That's very clear, why do they need to have a special event for that announcement, I think it's something else. We shall know tomorrow 9:00 am L.A. Time


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 20, 2021)

Looks like banners for Metropolis Ark 5 and bundle for 999


----------



## dhowarthmusic (Dec 20, 2021)

The Metropolis Ark 5 advert that keeps popping up here on Vi Control is a bit of a giveaway to their announcement tomorrow. So the 5th Metropolis Ark is coming!


----------



## dominus (Dec 20, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> Looks like banners for Metropolis Ark 5 and bundle for 999


Ugh, came here just to post that.

Ark 5 on Sine 249 euros intro price.


----------



## KEM (Dec 20, 2021)

dhowarthmusic said:


> The Metropolis Ark 5 advert that keeps popping up here on Vi Control is a bit of a giveaway to their announcement tomorrow. So the 5th Metropolis Ark is coming!



Uhhhhh where??


----------



## KEM (Dec 20, 2021)

KEM said:


> Uhhhhh where??



Nevermind it just popped up for me after I refreshed the site


----------



## KEM (Dec 20, 2021)

I knew it was Ark 5!! “A Cinematic Trailer Toolkit” that definitely has my attention


----------



## Robo Rivard (Dec 20, 2021)

So the "era ending" is the five volumes of Ark available as SINE libraries (or bundle)?


----------



## mgaewsj (Dec 20, 2021)

oops


----------



## Trash Panda (Dec 20, 2021)

dhowarthmusic said:


> The Metropolis Ark 5 advert that keeps popping up here on Vi Control is a bit of a giveaway to their announcement tomorrow. So the 5th Metropolis Ark is coming!


Oh no! The poor @OrchestralTools marketing team's teasing ruined by...the @OrchestralTools marketing team. 

Serves them right for embracing this insipid "ooh, we're so mysterious!" trend.


----------



## KEM (Dec 20, 2021)

I just wish it actually was out now lol


----------



## SZK-Max (Dec 20, 2021)

”Not contact” is fit in this day and age. The means of contact from now on is sign.


----------



## Futchibon (Dec 20, 2021)




----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

So which era is ending here ? 

Totally confused with their marketing lingo.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Dec 20, 2021)

The same thing happened the night before the Black Friday sale with the Berlin Mains. Looks like they would have learned from that. I do hope that there is something more to the announcement than just Ark 5, though. An update to Sine and Berlin Mains would be nice.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 20, 2021)

So no individual Ark sales? Bummer.

Would be cool if they at least gave you the option to “complete your bundle”.


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 20, 2021)

Well color me suprised. I thought that MA5 was miles away.











From these posts I assumed it meant that MA5 wasn't even in the works yet!
Well I'm pleasently happy to hear about this.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 20, 2021)

Also curious if Met.Ark 3 & 4 have been ported to SINE. So, the bundle is the Metropolis Arks 1,2,3,4,5 all in SINE format.


----------



## KEM (Dec 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Also curious if Met.Ark 3 & 4 have been ported to SINE. So, the bundle is the Metropolis Arks 1,2,3,4,5 all in SINE format.



Oh 100%, if they’re doing a bundle I’d say that’s a direct confirmation


----------



## tim727 (Dec 20, 2021)

OMG. Ok, definitely excited for a new Ark. BUT ... I really hope that the sale won't just be the bundle and that all the individual ones will be discounted as well!

Edit: Also, note that it looks like the regular price for Ark 5 will be 449 euros. That means that unless if OT have suddenly become more charitable it must be a little bit less "meaty" than the other Arks since those all range from 550-600 euros for the regular price.


----------



## Frederick (Dec 21, 2021)

Let's think aloud:

Hm. Seems like folks that don't have any Arks yet will get them cheapest - as usual.

I don't have any Arks yet. 

I think I may just have enough diskspace too.

I've already spent a fortune the last couple of months though, so if they'll sell the Metropolis Aks 1 & 2 bundle at 50% off too I might go for that one. It remains to be seen how useful Arks 3, 4 & 5 would be to me. I like Ark 2 especially as I think it would add a lot of color to the Berlin Mains. (Not sure how well they blend, because of the different seating though.) Ark 1 would help a little too, and those are seated the same as the Berlin Mains, but its main attraction to me is that the 1 & 2 bundle is relatively cheap compared to just buying Ark 2. My gut feeling is they won't offer the other individual arks nor the 1 & 2 bundle at a very good discount in the upcoming sale to get as many people to decide to go for the full bundle. #firstworldproblems


----------



## Breaker (Dec 21, 2021)

So is it the end of the Ark era or Kontakt era? Or Both?


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 21, 2021)

Yesss finally the bundle has arrived!


----------



## QuiteAlright (Dec 21, 2021)

Breaker said:


> So is it the end of the Ark era or Kontakt era? Or Both?


Let's be honest, that tagline was just a stupid marketing hype machine. Nothing is ending as far as I see, and I don't think there was even an "era" to speak of. The era of Arks??? 

Oh well, as long as the deals are good tomorrow, I don't really care. I'm hoping ideally for individual Arks to go on sale, but I doubt it will happen.


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 21, 2021)

Futchibon said:


>


Crazy good price. Ark 1 + 2 are currently 839 euros


----------



## Mr Sakitumi (Dec 21, 2021)

MA 5, a Cinematic Trailer Toolkit.
I wonder how they’re going to pull something like that off in SINE?
when you think of how developers like Keep Forest, Audio Imperia etc utilise the features in Kontakt for trailer sounds and fx (e.g. step sequencer, x-y morphing, Kontakt fx, even the visual feedback when customising multiple sounds etc)
I’d be interested to know how OT will utilise SINE in a trailer context.

or maybe I’m looking too deep into it and it will just be newer instruments to the Ark range, aimed at cinematic trailer composition.


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 21, 2021)

Mr Sakitumi said:


> MA 5, a Cinematic Trailer Toolkit.
> I wonder how they’re going to pull something like that off in SINE?
> when you think of how developers like Keep Forest, Audio Imperia etc utilise the features in Kontakt for trailer sounds and fx (e.g. step sequencer, x-y morphing, Kontakt fx, even the visual feedback when customising multiple sounds etc)
> I’d be interested to know how OT will utilise SINE in a trailer context.
> ...


Sine 1.0.8 patch incoming!


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 21, 2021)

Technically it has been the 21st here for the last 20 hours so maybe the banners aren't Timezone


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

QuiteAlright said:


> Let's be honest, that tagline was just a stupid marketing hype machine. Nothing is ending as far as I see, and I don't think there was even an "era" to speak of. The era of Arks???
> 
> Oh well, as long as the deals are good tomorrow, I don't really care. I'm hoping ideally for individual Arks to go on sale, but I doubt it will happen.


Why do you doubt the individual ones will go on sale? They just ported all the Berlin mains, had a bundle for all 4, and still had 50% off on all the individual ones. It doesn't seem so far fetched that they would do exactly the same for the Arks: (1) all finally ported, (2) bundle for full line, (3) sale on each individual library.


----------



## Go To 11 (Dec 21, 2021)

For anyone not seeing it...


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Why do you doubt the individual ones will go on sale? They just ported all the Berlin mains, had a bundle for all 4, and still had 50% off on all the individual ones. It doesn't seem so far fetched that they would do exactly the same for the Arks: (1) all finally ported, (2) bundle for full line, (3) sale on each individual library.


Except the banners don’t mention 50% off like the Berlin Series sale did.

But we’ll see!


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Except the banners don’t mention 50% off like the Berlin Series sale did.
> 
> But we’ll see!


That's a good point. Either way I think I'm buying Ark 4 tomorrow haha. My only reason for waiting was the hope that they'd have a sale if/when they converted it to SINE. If it won't be on sale with this deal that means it will be at least another year and it's worth it to pay the difference in price to enjoy the lib for the whole year...

Still got my fingers crossed though.


----------



## FKVStudio (Dec 21, 2021)

Oh my god! And I thought that, with the end of an era, they meant to stop being one of those nefarious companies that do not allow the resale of their products.

My wallet will remain closed to them.


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 21, 2021)

FKVStudio said:


> Oh my god! And I thought that, with the end of an era, they meant to stop being one of those nefarious companies that do not allow the resale of their products.
> 
> My wallet will remain closed to them.


Are you literally going to announce this in each new OT thread from now on? Because you’ve made this abundantly clear to us all. We're also well aware of the wrong VAT implementation preventing you to purchase anything with the correct 7% VAT that is applicable in the Canary Islands. I do sympathize with your particular issue, but it gets a bit stale having to read it in every other OT thread. And since you've made up your mind maybe give it a rest?


----------



## FKVStudio (Dec 21, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> Are you literally going to announce this in each new OT thread from now on? Because you’ve made this abundantly clear to us all. We're also well aware of the wrong VAT implementation preventing you to purchase anything with the correct 7% VAT that is applicable in the Canary Islands. I do sympathize with your particular issue, but it gets a bit stale having to read it in every other OT thread. And since you've made up your mind maybe give it a rest?


Ignoring my message and moving on is enough. Do not be forced to restrict my right to irony, especially knowing that some of @OrchestralTools walk around here, to see if once after MORE THAN 1 YEAR they deign to solve things.

Have a nice day.


----------



## RM 13 (Dec 21, 2021)

The end of an era is probably related to kontakt. I mean all their main libraries are ported to Sine now except Time Macro and Micro, which will soon happen, I guess. So, no more kontakt it seems.


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Dec 21, 2021)

OT will stop sampling and exlusively focus on midi packs


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Dec 21, 2021)

RM 13 said:


> The end of an era is probably related to kontakt. I mean all their main libraries are ported to Sine now except Time Macro and Micro, which will soon happen, I guess. So, no more kontakt it seems.



many others still aren't ported, like MA 4


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

RM 13 said:


> The end of an era is probably related to kontakt.


That's Possible, but we will surely know what era has ended when we watch the announcement.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

Fever Phoenix said:


> many others still aren't ported, like MA 4


and MA 3 not ported yet.


----------



## doctoremmet (Dec 21, 2021)

FKVStudio said:


> Ignoring my message and moving on is enough. Do not be forced to restrict my right to irony, especially knowing that some of @OrchestralTools walk around here, to see if once after MORE THAN 1 YEAR they deign to solve things.
> 
> Have a nice day.


Fine, no problem. Seems like you’re awfully frustrated for someone who keeps announcing he’s done with a vendor so I suspect you’ll buy OT stuff the minute they fix your VAT issues 😂. Have a nice day yourself.


----------



## holywilly (Dec 21, 2021)

This is the most exciting news before hitting 2022!

OT is really good at marketing upcoming products by putting the banner up.


----------



## davidson (Dec 21, 2021)

Some of the best ark features are the multis, what does sine do regarding those?


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 21, 2021)

As i thought, just an ark edition... (and using the same hyped markting methods as SA do... )
I don't see why people adore these, it's basically albions done by OT. (with FFF loudness)
An ensembles mostly library set, barely having any proper sections (e.g. only horns, or trumpets, or 1th violins) or solo instruments. A sketch aid, not for proper orchestration use.
But.. oh well, each to their own i guess  Happy for those who like it


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> As i thought, just an ark edition...
> I don't see why people adore these, it's basically albions done by OT. (with FFF loudness)
> An ensembles mostly library set, barely having any proper sections (e.g. only horns, or trumpets, or 1th violins) or solo instruments. A sketch aid, not for proper orchestration use.
> But.. oh well, each to their own i guess  Happy for those who like it


It's too early to say the announcement is just about Ark 5. In fact there probably will be other things announced as well.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 21, 2021)

tim727 said:


> It's too early to say the announcement is just about Ark 5. In fact there probably will be other things announced as well.


perhaps  (not getting actual hopes on it, preventing potential disappointment)


----------



## BenHicks (Dec 21, 2021)

Perhaps this is the fifth and final installment of the "Ark" series, marking an end to the Metropolis Ark era?


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 21, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> As i thought, just an ark edition... (and using the same hyped markting methods as SA do... )
> I don't see why people adore these, it's basically albions done by OT. (with FFF loudness)
> An ensembles mostly library set, barely having any proper sections (e.g. only horns, or trumpets, or 1th violins) or solo instruments. A sketch aid, not for proper orchestration use.
> But.. oh well, each to their own i guess  Happy for those who like it


So.. Are we still there in 2021? Discussing what is good for proper orchestration and not good for proper orchestration?


----------



## Peter Satera (Dec 21, 2021)

Metro Ark 5. And here I was going to start Christmas shopping today for everyone...


----------



## Jackdaw (Dec 21, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> An ensembles mostly library set, barely having any proper sections (e.g. only horns, or trumpets, or 1th violins)


True with strings, not with brass. Of course I'm not sure if this is valid point when talking about Arks. They are hardly meant for traditional stuff.


----------



## NoamL (Dec 21, 2021)

Some of the Ark1 brass sounds better than JXLB, I reckon.

Not sure I want to buy it in SINE however.


----------



## gpax (Dec 21, 2021)

One thing I know for certain, is that this brief era of online forum speculation will also end today.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

The fact that there are already 22 pages on this thread is kind of insane.


----------



## Go To 11 (Dec 21, 2021)

gpax said:


> One thing I know for certain, is that this brief era of online forum speculation will also end today.


OH my god. We are the era! But if they hadn't mentioned an Era, would we have made it one for them? Don't worry about the vase.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 21, 2021)

Jackdaw said:


> True with strings, not with brass. Of course I'm not sure if this is valid point when talking about Arks. They are hardly meant for traditional stuff.


i stand corrected then, for brass...


still.. not my cup of tea.. the way they do it in the arks... (i prefer the control in composing)


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 21, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> So.. Are we still there in 2021? Discussing what is good for proper orchestration and not good for proper orchestration?


Yes, the era has not ended yet


----------



## Jax (Dec 21, 2021)

Very cool! 

As others have said, it would be nice to see those individual Ark discounts— 999 for all five is a fantastic deal but still a lot of money.

Also, here’s hoping they finally announce a Cart!


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> As i thought, just an ark edition... (and using the same hyped markting methods as SA do... )
> I don't see why people adore these, it's basically albions done by OT. (with FFF loudness)
> An ensembles mostly library set, barely having any proper sections (e.g. only horns, or trumpets, or 1th violins) or solo instruments. A sketch aid, not for proper orchestration use.
> But.. oh well, each to their own i guess  Happy for those who like it


Captain Buzzkill has arrived!


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Captain Buzzkill has arrived!


mr. touchy is here also *salutes*


----------



## daviddln (Dec 21, 2021)

Isn't Ark 1 already a Cinematic Trailer Toolkit? I hope it won't be redundant.


----------



## Ian Dorsch (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> and MA 3 not ported yet.


MA 3 not ported yet, and a known issue with Kontakt that causes tempo synced phrases to drift out of sync with the DAW. I love the lib, but I am very, very eager for the Sine port of that one.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

I think it's a good opportunity to ask them when we can expect the major Updates for Berlin Main Orchestra on the Commercial Forum thread.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

Ian Dorsch said:


> MA 3 not ported yet, and a known issue with Kontakt that causes tempo synced phrases to drift out of sync with the DAW. I love the lib, but I am very, very eager for the Sine port of that one.


YES ! 

MA 3, and MA 4 in SINE would be wonderful. One of the best aspects of this release for me. Although, I'm still very interested in MA 5.


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 21, 2021)

Ian Dorsch said:


> MA 3 not ported yet, and a known issue with Kontakt that causes tempo synced phrases to drift out of sync with the DAW. I love the lib, but I am very, very eager for the Sine port of that one.





muziksculp said:


> and MA 3 not ported yet.





Fever Phoenix said:


> many others still aren't ported, like MA 4


Y'all, these have been ported. Part of today's announcement will involve a SINE bundle for the Arks 😁


----------



## Braveheart (Dec 21, 2021)

To offer this kind of price for the complete bundle, and call it end of an Era, it’s most likely a complete port to SINE


----------



## thereus (Dec 21, 2021)

I hope the game is going to be changed. I love it when the game is changed…


----------



## Hendrixon (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Although, I'm still very interested in MA 5.


You don't even know what it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

Since I own all 4 Arks, I'm hoping for a bundle discount for 5. Otherwise, I will probably skip it. I like the Arks, but I don't use them enough to buy another at almost $300.


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Dec 21, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Y'all, these have been ported. Part of today's announcement will involve a SINE bundle for the Arks 😁


yes. today. we we're talking about before today and the fact that not all Kontakt libraries have been ported


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> To offer this kind of price for the complete bundle, and call it end of an Era, it’s most likely a complete port to SINE


Yes, for me, that was a given, since they are porting their entire library catalog to SINE, nothing that surprises me about that, the only new thing so far is MA 5, but I still wonder if we are going to get another surprise during the announcement.


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 21, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> To offer this kind of price for the complete bundle, and call it end of an Era, it’s most likely a complete port to SINE


That's what I'm thinking also, bye bye Kontakt on _everything_.

You watch... the announcement will be that Henrik Schwarzer is leaving OT and moving to the USA to work for Yamaha/Steinberg.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Ian Dorsch said:


> MA 3 not ported yet, and a known issue with Kontakt that causes tempo synced phrases to drift out of sync with the DAW. I love the lib, but I am very, very eager for the Sine port of that one.


We don’t really know how good tempo sync is with Sine, do we? I’m not in front of my rig to check, but I recollect that the Mains have the first Sine patches that promise tempo sync so it’s a recent feature.


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 21, 2021)

I really want this electric train set for around our Christmas tree.


----------



## jamwerks (Dec 21, 2021)

SINE doesn't have a time-stretching parameter yet, does it?

They have a lot of libraries that aren't yet ported to Sine (Glory Days, Harp, Muted brass, etc.). I'd be surprised if they do all that at once.


----------



## RM 13 (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> and MA 3 not ported yet.


I meant after today's announcement Arks 3 and 4 are ready for Sine from now on. And I believe that the arks as well as all their other libs won't be available for kontakt anymore. That could be the reason behind 999 for the bundle. Anyone who wants them can only get this deal for the Sine versions.


----------



## akhill jain (Dec 21, 2021)

I'm guessing it's around the new metropolis ark 5? Maybe it's the last one from that series?


----------



## RM 13 (Dec 21, 2021)

Also, I totally hate these kind of threads of Spitfire-esque marketing. I hate Spitfire for starting the whole thing but I have to admit that they're the best at this. All others are waaaaay behind.


----------



## Composer 2021 (Dec 21, 2021)

I hope Muted Brass will be on sale when it gets ported to Sine but I don't want a sale to happen this early. Give my wallet some more time...


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

The bundle seems like a great way to get newcomers onboard with SINE.

Let's just hope there's some sort of loyalty discounts tossed in for good measure.


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 21, 2021)

Composer 2021 said:


> I hope Muted Brass will be on sale when it gets ported to Sine but I don't want a sale to happen this early. Give my wallet some more time...


Wow we're in the exact same place lol i want to grab the muted brass and extra woodwind instruments and then I've got pretty much everything i want. But I'm not ready yet


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

PaulieDC said:


> I really want this electric train set for around our Christmas tree.


Ark 5: Electric Trains


----------



## Tim_Wells (Dec 21, 2021)

thereus said:


> I hope the game is going to be changed. I love it when the game is changed…


Not me. I still haven't figured out the first game.


----------



## NicolasG (Dec 21, 2021)

Quick question to anyone who already has a bunch of traditional and hybrid libraries, after I saw some videos with Ark's patches:

What added value does it have for you (or if it has any)?

I question this myself, I was looking to buy something from the Ark series for a year now but since I already have Symphobia 1-4, BBCSO Pro, The Orchestra Complete 2, Damage 2, CinePerc and OT Percussion from the Berlin Series, I kind of feel like I already have everything that Ark has to offer. Otherwise let me know. That 999€ price point sounds tempting, but I also have the feeling that I am already having the tools to get a similar sound.


----------



## juliandoe (Dec 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Ark 5: Electric Trains


actually is Ark 5 : Led Zeppelin


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 21, 2021)

NicolasG said:


> Quick question to anyone who already has a bunch of traditional and hybrid libraries, after I saw some videos with Ark's patches:
> 
> What added value does it have for you (or if it has any)?
> 
> I question this myself, I was looking to buy something from the Ark series for a year now but since I already have Symphobia 1-4, BBCSO Pro, The Orchestra Complete 2, Damage 2, CinePerc and OT Percussion from the Berlin Series, I kind of feel like I already have everything that Ark has to offer. Otherwise let me know. That 999€ price point sounds tempting, but I also have the feeling that I am already having the tools to get a similar sound.


Think of them as a quick way of getting a mood. Ark 1 goes louder than most; Ark 2 is like Danny Elfman or those soft Silvestri moments and gives you instruments and combinations you won't find anywhere; Ark 4 just has a sound all its own. It sounds like a Bernard Hermann homage imo.


----------



## PaulieDC (Dec 21, 2021)

So 5 is the last Ark. Ta da.


----------



## NicolasG (Dec 21, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Think of them as a quick way of getting a mood. Ark 1 goes louder than most; Ark 2 is like Danny Elfman or those soft Silvestri moments and gives you instruments and combinations you won't find anywhere; Ark 4 just has a sound all its own. It sounds like a Bernard Hermann homage imo.


Thank you for these descriptions. This definitely helps to understand what they offer.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

NicolasG said:


> Quick question to anyone who already has a bunch of traditional and hybrid libraries, after I saw some videos with Ark's patches:
> 
> What added value does it have for you (or if it has any)?
> 
> I question this myself, I was looking to buy something from the Ark series for a year now but since I already have Symphobia 1-4, BBCSO Pro, The Orchestra Complete 2, Damage 2, CinePerc and OT Percussion from the Berlin Series, I kind of feel like I already have everything that Ark has to offer. Otherwise let me know. That 999€ price point sounds tempting, but I also have the feeling that I am already having the tools to get a similar sound.


No value at all. The Arks are just FFF ensemble libraries incapable of “proper orchestration”.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Think of them as a quick way of getting a mood. Ark 1 goes louder than most; Ark 2 is like Danny Elfman or those soft Silvestri moments and gives you instruments and combinations you won't find anywhere; Ark 4 just has a sound all its own. It sounds like a Bernard Hermann homage imo.


Ark 2 is definitely on my list. Total Elfman vibes!


----------



## Chungus (Dec 21, 2021)

Looks like (besides the intro price of 5) only Ark 3 is on sale, and not a particularly good deal at that. Pass.


----------



## MartinH. (Dec 21, 2021)

Ian Dorsch said:


> MA 3 not ported yet, and a known issue with Kontakt that causes tempo synced phrases to drift out of sync with the DAW. I love the lib, but I am very, very eager for the Sine port of that one.


Never heard of that issue but sounds super annoying. I expect it's one of those "won't ever be fixed" issues in their kontakt libraries now. :(
Kind of their only library I was interested in, and I don't want to use Sine...



Chungus said:


> Looks like (besides the intro price of 5) only Ark 3 is on sale, and not a particularly good deal at that. Pass.


At the beginning not even that one was on sale, maybe they add the sales manually one by one?

edit: MA4 is 27% off now, seems I may have been right.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Well, I guess OT is going with this is the end of the Arks. Still peculiar to call this the "end," even more peculiar to call it "completed." Though I guess they are finally giving us some high woodwinds. But they are ensemble high woodwinds, rather than the parts as with Arks 1 and 2.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

NicolasG said:


> Quick question to anyone who already has a bunch of traditional and hybrid libraries, after I saw some videos with Ark's patches:
> 
> What added value does it have for you (or if it has any)?
> 
> I question this myself, I was looking to buy something from the Ark series for a year now but since I already have Symphobia 1-4, BBCSO Pro, The Orchestra Complete 2, Damage 2, CinePerc and OT Percussion from the Berlin Series, I kind of feel like I already have everything that Ark has to offer. Otherwise let me know. That 999€ price point sounds tempting, but I also have the feeling that I am already having the tools to get a similar sound.


There are some instruments that aren't available in the normal Berlin libraries. I think the porting to Sine will be great in that you will be able to buy the instruments you want without getting the whole library.


----------



## Jacob Fanto (Dec 21, 2021)

Not a single Ark to my name... do I want the bundle? Yes. Do I need it? No. Well, maybe. Perhaps. Ugh.


----------



## onnomusic (Dec 21, 2021)

sine player store not working for me atm. pretty typical to be honest haha


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Chungus said:


> Looks like (besides the intro price of 5) only Ark 3 is on sale, and not a particularly good deal at that. Pass.


Looks like both 3 and 4 are on sale since those are the ones being ported over to Sine?


----------



## MA-Simon (Dec 21, 2021)

I very much like the playable runs-thingies. But I am set for everything else. So I decided to get Andea instead. I love a smaller sound.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)




----------



## Sunny Schramm (Dec 21, 2021)

onnomusic said:


> sine player store not working for me atm. pretty typical to be honest haha


server-overload - but no wonder


----------



## filipjonathan (Dec 21, 2021)

Someone please do a demo of the playable runs!!!


----------



## Go To 11 (Dec 21, 2021)

The Bundle's up! https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/bundles/metropolis-ark-bundle


----------



## sheen (Dec 21, 2021)

..that went over like a....

I'll wait until I see a couple of objective reviews...
you know..."Raters of the Last Ark"


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

Well, darn it! Put in my serial numbers and they gave me the discounted bundle rate of 166.44 euros. I think that means I have to get it.  

I missed the first 12 minutes. Then the moving cameras started making me dizzy. (I have an inner ear problem) But what I heard sounded good, just very similar to other things I have.


----------



## Chungus (Dec 21, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Never heard of that issue but sounds super annoying. I expect it's one of those "won't ever be fixed" issues in their kontakt libraries now. :(
> Kind of their only library I was interested in, and I don't want to use Sine...
> 
> 
> ...


Still a meagre discount on 3. It would be completely negated by VAT where I live. And since 3 is the only one I was interested in - a pass.

Kinda kicking myself for now jumping on the NI sale last year, now, though. lol


----------



## dunamisstudio (Dec 21, 2021)

NicolasG said:


> Quick question to anyone who already has a bunch of traditional and hybrid libraries, after I saw some videos with Ark's patches:
> 
> What added value does it have for you (or if it has any)?
> 
> I question this myself, I was looking to buy something from the Ark series for a year now but since I already have Symphobia 1-4, BBCSO Pro, The Orchestra Complete 2, Damage 2, CinePerc and OT Percussion from the Berlin Series, I kind of feel like I already have everything that Ark has to offer. Otherwise let me know. That 999€ price point sounds tempting, but I also have the feeling that I am already having the tools to get a similar sound.


This, I'm in the same boat. I already have Albions, Komplete 13CE, Synchron and others. It's either save up and get the bundle next year or just buy pieces I want/need.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 21, 2021)

Go To 11 said:


> The Bundle's up! https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/bundles/metropolis-ark-bundle


Shame get the added 20% VAT in UK, still too expensive for me.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Not surprised to


dzilizzi said:


> Well, darn it! Put in my serial numbers and they gave me the discounted bundle rate of 166.44 euros. I think that means I have to get it.
> 
> I missed the first 12 minutes. Then the moving cameras started making me dizzy. (I have an inner ear problem) But what I heard sounded good, just very similar to other things I have.


Where do you put in your serial numbers? I'm trying to put mine in, and they ain't doin jack!


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

OT's site is basically non-functional for me now.


----------



## Jacob Fanto (Dec 21, 2021)

With an EDU discount, the bundle for me comes out to be 899 euros... this is getting more tempting by the minute.


----------



## AndyP (Dec 21, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Well, darn it! Put in my serial numbers and they gave me the discounted bundle rate of 166.44 euros. I think that means I have to get it.
> 
> I missed the first 12 minutes. Then the moving cameras started making me dizzy. (I have an inner ear problem) But what I heard sounded good, just very similar to other things I have.


Is that inc VAT? Since I have all 4 ... can't resist.


----------



## easyrider (Dec 21, 2021)

Metropolis Ark Bundle
The complete series
Included Collections:
Metropolis Ark 5 - Orchestra of functions

Metropolis Ark 1 - The Monumental Orchestra
Metropolis Ark 2 - Orchestra of the deep

Metropolis Ark 3 - The beating orchestra
Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite orchestral forces

€899,40


----------



## Jacob Fanto (Dec 21, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Metropolis Ark Bundle
> The complete series
> Included Collections:
> Metropolis Ark 5 - Orchestra of functions
> ...


It's 999 without EDU discount I believe.


----------



## Sunny Schramm (Dec 21, 2021)

I own Ark 1+3 plus a choir from Ark 2 - Bundle Price is 780€ +Vat


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## AndyP (Dec 21, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Well, darn it! Put in my serial numbers and they gave me the discounted bundle rate of 166.44 euros. I think that means I have to get it.
> 
> I missed the first 12 minutes. Then the moving cameras started making me dizzy. (I have an inner ear problem) But what I heard sounded good, just very similar to other things I have.


Where can I put in my serial numbers?


----------



## Jacob Fanto (Dec 21, 2021)

Important question -- for those of you who own Arks, any or all of them, how often do you reach for them either in addition to or over other orchestral libraries such as Spitfire Symphony, BBCSO, Cinematic Studio Series, Cinesamples, etc?


----------



## jamwerks (Dec 21, 2021)

No discount it seems on the individual instruments in III & IV.


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## MartinH. (Dec 21, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> I own Ark 1+3 plus a choir from Ark 2 - Bundle Price is 780€ +Vat


I just own Ark 1 and my bundle price is 795,- + Vat. 



Chungus said:


> Kinda kicking myself for now jumping on the NI sale last year, now, though. lol


Same :(. What did just Ark 3 cost back then?


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## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

AndyP said:


> Where can I put in my serial numbers?


Account - My licenses - Activate Collection for SINE


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## Sunny Schramm (Dec 21, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I just own Ark 1 and my bundle price is 795,- + Vat.
> 
> 
> Same :(. What did just Ark 3 cost back then?


Hmm...weird. Ark 3 was 599€ plus Vat if I remember it correctly.


----------



## AndyP (Dec 21, 2021)

I have all 4 Arks, but I am only shown to have Ark 1 licensed.
Is it possible that I have to activate all 4 Arks in the Sine Player first? I have only activated Ark1 in the Sine Player, because I still use the Kontakt versions.


----------



## BenBotkin (Dec 21, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> Someone please do a demo of the playable runs!!!


In my video I paly with the playable runs for like 20-30 mins!


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## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

AndyP said:


> Is that inc VAT? Since I have all 4 ... can't resist.


Doesn't include VAT as far as I can tell.


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## Chungus (Dec 21, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Same :(. What did just Ark 3 cost back then?


It was 50% off.


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>



I don't want to be the guy.. but in all honesty:
I *LOVE* most of Ben's work, but not this one. It sounds incomplete, as in having gaps musically. (like it's a temporarily placeholder piece, or work in progress kind of thing)
Also the mix is quite thin sounding.


----------



## Sunny Schramm (Dec 21, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> Hmm...weird. Ark 3 was 599€ plus Vat if I remember it correctly.


Seems like the Sine-Activation for Ark 3 did not work. Second try in some hours


----------



## ag75 (Dec 21, 2021)

I own 1-4 I’m wondering if there is a discount with the bundle because I own the other libraries. Complete the bundle. Don’t hey do that? 200 per library is a steal for the complete bundle!


----------



## BenBotkin (Dec 21, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I don't want to be the guy.. but in all honesty:
> I *LOVE* most of Ben's work, but not this one. It sounds incomplete, as in having gaps musically. (like it's a temporarily placeholder piece, or work in progress kind of thing)
> Also the mix is quite thin sounding.


Fair enough! It's not my fav either. Which is why most of the video is me playing with the playable lib patches instead of talking about my demo.


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## Evans (Dec 21, 2021)

Hey, everyone, thread title is still about "speculation." Please don't stop.


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## Jacob Fanto (Dec 21, 2021)

ag75 said:


> I own 1-4 I’m wondering if there is a discount with the bundle because I own the other libraries. 200 per library is a steal for the complete bundle!


How do you find the 4 Arks you own?


----------



## KEM (Dec 21, 2021)

I love that Shepard tone patch, that’s an instant buy


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## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Oh, no! The website! It’s broken!


----------



## RogiervG (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Oh, no! The website! It’s broken!


not over here...


----------



## Jorf88 (Dec 21, 2021)

Oh FFS. the MA libraries are some of the only ones that have been eternally on my wishlist, but I've never gotten around to purchasing.

I made it through the entire holiday season without purchasing a single library. I've been so good at taming the GAS... but while sitting here watching the announcement, I was thinking to myself "What if they did a discount on the whole set, for like 1k? Wouldn't that be sweet? There's no way they'd ever do that." ... then I checked the website. All 5 MAs in a bundle for like ~1k (yes yes USD conversion, it's actually like 1.2K)? How am I supposed to hold myself back from that? 

Given that it's OT, it's really unlikely that they'll ever do another deal like this. The only reason the famous NI collection deal ever happened was because it was a celebratory "last hurrah" for the Kontakt versions of the libraries. Everything is SINE now.

Someone help me... or help my poor wallet.


----------



## AndyP (Dec 21, 2021)

Hmmm, first my bundle price was at 700€, now again at 999€. The Sine Player has request time out when I go to my licenses. 

Probably completely overloaded. Then I'll wait a few more days and try to find out why not all Ark licenses are displayed.


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## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

The OT servers are super busy, I couldn't even navigate to register MA 3 & MA 4 to get the SINE versions. I will wait until the heavy traffic eases.


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## Sunny Schramm (Dec 21, 2021)

Its back and activation works - my bundle-price is only 578,40€ +Vat. Nice offer for three Ark-Libraries. Have to think about that...


----------



## Go To 11 (Dec 21, 2021)

Jorf88 said:


> Oh FFS. the MA libraries are some of the only ones that have been eternally on my wishlist, but I've never gotten around to purchasing.
> 
> I made it through the entire holiday season without purchasing a single library. I've been so good at taming the GAS... but while sitting here watching the announcement, I was thinking to myself "What if they did a discount on the whole set, for like 1k? Wouldn't that be sweet? There's no way they'd ever do that." ... then I checked the website. All 5 MAs in a bundle for like ~1k (yes yes USD conversion, it's actually like 1.2K)? How am I supposed to hold myself back from that?
> 
> ...


I feel that. I was so good this BF. But I’ve always been Ark-curious and now they hit me with €200 each. A deal even Noah couldn’t pass on.


----------



## MartinH. (Dec 21, 2021)

@OrchestralTools: Out of curiousity, would it be possible to buy the "complete your bundle" deal, and get Kontakt licenses instead of Sine licenses for the libraries that were released for Kontakt? Will you stop selling Kontakt licenses at some point?


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## AndyP (Dec 21, 2021)

Got it! I have found the option to licence the Kontakt libraries to Sine.
But it is very very slow ...


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> Its back and activation works - my bundle-price is only 578,40€ +Vat. Nice offer for three Ark-Libraries. Have to think about that...


This gives me hope.


----------



## Sunny Schramm (Dec 21, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> @OrchestralTools: Out of curiousity, would it be possible to buy the "complete your bundle" deal, and get Kontakt licenses instead of Sine licenses for the libraries that were released for Kontakt? Will you stop selling Kontakt licenses at some point?


sadly not and the kontakt-versions got no support anymore. would be interesting to know what they´ve optimized for the sine-versions and maybe what features are missing.

This shows up when you try to buy Ark1-4 for Kontakt right now:


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## Ricgus3 (Dec 21, 2021)

With the VAT for me (Sweden) the sale is price is neglated


----------



## Giscard Rasquin (Dec 21, 2021)

AndyP said:


> Got it! I have found the option to licence the Kontakt libraries to Sine.
> But it is very very slow ...


Where did you find this option? Checking account and my licenses pages but cant see anything


----------



## NicolasG (Dec 21, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> Important question -- for those of you who own Arks, any or all of them, how often do you reach for them either in addition to or over other orchestral libraries such as Spitfire Symphony, BBCSO, Cinematic Studio Series, Cinesamples, etc?


Very good question. I seriously wonder the same!


----------



## AndyP (Dec 21, 2021)

Giscard Rasquin said:


> Where did you find this option? Checking account and my licenses pages but cant see anything


You can find it up here ... on the right


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## Chungus (Dec 21, 2021)

Ark 3 is 27% off now. ...lolwut? What are they doing over there?


----------



## Evans (Dec 21, 2021)

Chungus said:


> Ark 3 is 27% off now. ...lolwut? What are they doing over there?


Are you saying that because it's not enough of a discount for you? If so, it's pretty clear that they simply want people to buy the full 1-5 bundle. "Ah, heck might as well."


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## Giscard Rasquin (Dec 21, 2021)

AndyP said:


> You can find it up here ... on the right


Got it, thanks


----------



## DrSgtShock (Dec 21, 2021)

I have the entire cinematic studios series so that’s what I go to when I want to make a more detailed composition. With ARK I I can use just the French horn and bass trombone patches with a sprinkle of trumpets on top (all ark) and I have a big hyped up brass sound very quickly. Is it realistic or balanced from a classical standpoint? No. But it’s extremely fun.


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## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Sunny Schramm said:


> I own Ark 1+3 plus a choir from Ark 2 - Bundle Price is 780€ +Vat


This looks like you only have credit for Ark1 and the choir from Ark 2. Have you registered Ark 3 in Sine? Once I did that, the bundle price reduced greatly.

ETA: I see that you did get a bigger discount once you entered Ark 3 license.


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## Rudianos (Dec 21, 2021)

Just don't have the HD space - 8TB 80% full. LOL I might buy 5-6 singles to fill in the gaps.


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## daan1412 (Dec 21, 2021)

€999 + 23% VAT here... It's a good deal for 5 products, but still a lot of money for me. I'm tempted, though. I've always wanted at least like 2 of the Arks, so we'll see. I hope the deal doesn't expire in a few days.


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## Rudianos (Dec 21, 2021)

daan1412 said:


> €999 + 23% VAT here... It's a good deal for 5 products, but still a lot of money for me. I'm tempted, though. I've always wanted at least like 2 of the Arks, so we'll see. I hope the deal doesn't expire in a few days.


2 weeks to consider then back to 1500


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## Sheridan (Dec 21, 2021)

Heads up to owners of all 4 previous Arks:

If you buy (upgrade) to the complete Ark bundle the price of Ark 5 becomes 166 EUR + VAT.


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## Chungus (Dec 21, 2021)

Evans said:


> Are you saying that because it's not enough of a discount for you? If so, it's pretty clear that they simply want people to buy the full 1-5 bundle. "Ah, heck might as well."


Well, yes. I'm disappointed.  But that particular comment was more in regard to the discount being 20% just a moment ago. That it's gone up (or, I guess, down?) is strange.


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## MartinH. (Dec 21, 2021)

Chungus said:


> Ark 3 is 27% off now. ...lolwut? What are they doing over there?



Maybe they're reading along here and noticed our disappointment. 

But 399,- + VAT for MA3 is still 475,- for me... for either a kontakt library with bugs that will never be fixed, or a Sine library for a player that has bugs that we need to take their word for will ever be fixed. And based on my experience so far I'm not willing to take their word for it and want nothing to do with Sine. I wasn't planning to buy another product from them again at all, but damn... MA3 does sound great.
For 249,- + VAT I'd buy the Kontakt version and to be honest that's kind of the price I was expecting it to be sold for. And I expected MA5 to cost more.


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## AndyP (Dec 21, 2021)

Ok, now its 166,44€ for me to complete the bundle. Do I need Ark 5? I´ll wait a few days, maybe someone can post some examples for the runs. 
The mixed legato patches, for example, Celli and Horns did not sound very convincing. I did not here any legato, nor a difference between slured and bowed. Maybe it was not loud enough for me.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> Important question -- for those of you who own Arks, any or all of them, how often do you reach for them either in addition to or over other orchestral libraries such as Spitfire Symphony, BBCSO, Cinematic Studio Series, Cinesamples, etc?


I use horns, trumpets, and choir from Ark 1 all the time. I use the harps, Wagner tubas, alto flutes and choir from Ark 2 regularly. I occasionally use some of the mid string articulations from Ark 2. I hardly ever use Ark 3. I rarely sit down and use the libraries as libraries but instead use them as supplements to my other libraries. I do not own Ark 4, but am fairly confident a few of those instruments would get regular use, more than Ark 3. Ark 5 I'm unsure about.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

ag75 said:


> I own 1-4 I’m wondering if there is a discount with the bundle because I own the other libraries. Complete the bundle. Don’t hey do that? 200 per library is a steal for the complete bundle!


yes there is a discount, but you have to activate your 3 and 4 in sine (or all 4 if you haven't)


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## Sunny Schramm (Dec 21, 2021)

BTW: Dont forget you are able to buy single instruments for your needs right now with the Sine-Versions. No need to buy the full libraries but still tempting as f***


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## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> yes there is a discount, but you have to activate your 3 and 4 in sine (or all 4 if you haven't)


As far as I can tell, it works out to about 200€ per library, 185€ if you have an EDU discount. All without VAT, and of course if you are buying in dollars you need to add a hefty exchange rate difference.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 21, 2021)

so no sale on 1 and 2?

Good deal on the bundle, but thats a lot to shell out in one go. 

Shame


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## Jacob Fanto (Dec 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I use horns, trumpets, and choir from Ark 1 all the time. I use the harps, Wagner tubas, alto flutes and choir from Ark 2 regularly. I occasionally use some of the mid string articulations from Ark 2. I hardly ever use Ark 3. I rarely sit down and use the libraries as libraries but instead use them as supplements to my other libraries. I do not own Ark 4, but am fairly confident a few of those instruments would get regular use, more than Ark 3. Ark 5 I'm unsure about.


Interesting. What kind of music do you mainly write?


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## Laurin Lenschow (Dec 21, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> Important question -- for those of you who own Arks, any or all of them, how often do you reach for them either in addition to or over other orchestral libraries such as Spitfire Symphony, BBCSO, Cinematic Studio Series, Cinesamples, etc?


I own Ark 1, 2 and 3. 
I reach for Ark 1 all the time - (to my knowledge) there are no other low strings out there that sound as raw and powerful. I also use the Trumpets and Trombones a lot because I just like the sound. Ark 2 is equally great but I don't use it quite as much as Ark 1 which is mostly due to the music I write. Ark 3 works well to complement Ark 1 because it adds more percussion and more articulations to the orchestral sections. 

I will upload a video with a demo of Ark 2 on my 2nd channel today and I also plan on doing a comprehensive playthorugh of the multis that come with Ark 3.


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## filipjonathan (Dec 21, 2021)

BenBotkin said:


> In my video I paly with the playable runs for like 20-30 mins!


Yes, I've watched afterwards. Thanks! Would you say the quartet runs are able to do classic octave runs convincingly?


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## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> Just don't have the HD space - 8TB 80% full. LOL I might buy 5-6 singles to fill in the gaps.


As a note, sample drives can be filled to the red because you don't need read/write room once they are on the drive. Space for updates? Yeah, maybe that. I usually leave about 25 to 50GBs on my SSD's and they work fine.


----------



## ag75 (Dec 21, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> How do you find the 4 Arks


I figured it out. You need to transfer your license to Sine then the bundle price will show up. I can get ARK 5 for 164.44! What a steal!


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## onnomusic (Dec 21, 2021)

those shorts sound pretty dope! not really sure what to make of all the combination patches though. 
Would love to grab the strings shorts and longs, but can't buy low strings without it being combined with winds. 

Strange choice for an industry that needs to deliver stems for every project


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## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

Watching Ben's video. Liking how agile the runs are. 

LOL! The low strings sustain pads sounds like a pipe organ. Not a bad sound. I think this is not as expensive because it is a little more limited than some of the other Arks. But I think it will combined well.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 21, 2021)

onnomusic said:


> those shorts sound pretty dope! not really sure what to make of all the combination patches though.
> Would love to grab the strings shorts and longs, but can't buy low strings without it being combined with winds.
> 
> Strange choice for an industry that needs to deliver stems for every project



Seems like quite a random mish mash of stuff ensemble and articulation wise.

Looks a bit less focused than the previous arks.


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## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> Interesting. What kind of music do you mainly write?


Post-Mahlerian symphonic music when I'm using all of these. Ark 1 and 2 would really fit something like Huppertz score for Metropolis if only OT had included upper woodwinds. Horns a9 from Ark 1 is one of my favorite patches of any library I own—I just love the sound, and I think the Sine version of the patch offers improvements over the Kontakt original. In general, I find the sound of the Arks really fits the sensibility of large symphonic music for 1900-1940, though of course you also need solo players (woodwinds, trumpet and horn) too, and the strings are generally not detailed enough (so it's nice to have BSS).


----------



## MA-Simon (Dec 21, 2021)

Got the Quartett playable runs. Could come in handy. 
I think it is awesome that I can chose an pick what I want with Sine.


----------



## Nando Florestan (Dec 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Post-Mahlerian symphonic music


Where can we go to listen to your compositions!?


----------



## Breaker (Dec 21, 2021)

The bundle price for owners of 1-4 seems like a no-brainer but I'm not sure what to think of the Ark 5.
Seems like instead of innovating they have just scraped ideas from the bottom of the barrel for this one.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Just upgraded to the bundle deal!


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)




----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Nando Florestan said:


> Where can we go to listen to your compositions!?


I sent you a PM.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Breaker said:


> The bundle price for owners of 1-4 seems like a no-brainer but I'm not sure what to think of the Ark 5.
> Seems like instead of innovating they have just scraped ideas from the bottom of the barrel for this one.


Which is maybe why they are declaring this the end on the series.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> Seems like quite a random mish mash of stuff ensemble and articulation wise.
> 
> Looks a bit less focused than the previous arks.


The focus seems to be on filling in the missing pieces in the Arks. So it would be a mish-mash of stuff.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Those low string short stabs are all i care about.


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## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The focus seems to be on filling in the missing pieces in the Arks. So it would be a mish-mash of stuff.


I don't think the Arks are that coherent as a concept, tbh. Arks 1 & 2 were complementary and I understood how they fit with a concept. But I never understood the thinking behind 3 and 4 with respect to that concept. I understand that many find 3 very useful, even if I don't, and there are things I find appealing about Ark 4 (and indeed Ark 5) that means I will be picking them up. But it's not because they form some kind of large conceptual whole. The Symphobias and even the Albions—neither of which has much conceptual unity—have more than the Arks. And Audio Imperia's Jaeger along with the Ark Choirs (or with PS's Oceania) does as good a job as Arks 1 and 2 of fitting the original concept of the Arks, and at a lower cost.

But even given that, the Arks might have been a loosely organized series along the lines of the Albions and that would have been fine, so I'm not seeing why OT decided to call it quits on this idea. We're kind of getting that, I suppose with the Times (both of which have affinities with the Arks) and things like Modus, Tallinn, Miroire, etc. So maybe they just feel it's better this way.


----------



## Eptesicus (Dec 21, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Got the Quartett playable runs. Could come in handy.
> I think it is awesome that I can chose an pick what I want with Sine.



Yeh the a la carte thing is really good.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 21, 2021)

Jacob Fanto said:


> With an EDU discount, the bundle for me comes out to be 899 euros... this is getting more tempting by the minute.


Doesn't for me


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


>




Wow, great job on that demo. Listened to all the demos and probably the demo I liked the most.
That theme has already stuck to my head. Love the arrangement as well!


----------



## Breaker (Dec 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Which is maybe why they are declaring this the end on the series.


Yeah, I guess that well has run dry. Maybe they had to just come up with something new for the bundle, Ark 4 was released already three years ago.


----------



## axb312 (Dec 21, 2021)

How many RRs do the shorts have?


----------



## Germain B (Dec 21, 2021)

axb312 said:


> How many RRs do the shorts have?


I think OT said 5 in the chat of the premiere.


----------



## Evans (Dec 21, 2021)

How do Kontakt Multi equivalents work in SINE? For example, I'm watching a video on Ark 3 from the Kontakt days and am curious about those. Did I miss that in the video for 5 (or anywhere else)?

I'm interested in the bundle, really just for 1-3.


----------



## Markrs (Dec 21, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Doesn't for me


When I added it to the cart I got €899 as well, with the addition EDU discount


----------



## shropshirelad (Dec 21, 2021)

Aitcpiano said:


> Shame get the added 20% VAT in UK, still too expensive for me.


I could afford it but OT stuff feels overpriced even before the UK VAT is added.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Dec 21, 2021)

Markrs said:


> When I added it to the cart I got €899 as well, with the addition EDU discount


Me too, that's just over $1300 CDN. Yikes.


----------



## Markrs (Dec 21, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Me too, that's just over $1300 CDN. Yikes.


I plan to resist. It is tempting with the Bundle discount and EDU discount. There is also no hurry as I can get the EDU discount anytime.


----------



## David Kudell (Dec 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> That theme has already stuck to my head.


Mission accomplished! 

(but seriously, thanks!)


----------



## Marsen (Dec 21, 2021)

For me, Ark 5 would be an instabuy, if there wouldn't be this Sine only bundle offer

I have Ark 3 & 4, which was Kontakt only.
Now they are ported to Sine.
Ark 5 is Sine only, sure.
But the (for me) missing Arks 1 & 2, which are Kontakt too, are not part of the deal and the bundle. 
I already contacted support for the ability, purchasing Ark 1,2 Kontakt versions along with the bundle for some extra cash, but yes sure... it's not possible. 

It's part of my workflow for creating kontakt multis with cross series, like Arks and Berlin mains and I don't like the GUI of Sine yet, to dark, to unlogical.

I'm a bit dissapointed, why OT doesn't let their customers have this opportunity just for this time of transition from one, to another player, to use the kontakt versions, till they feel save with their new player.

And please VI friends: Don't bother me with you're totally misplaced "you have to deal with it" responses.
I'm not dump.
I know they leave/left kontakt, but unless Sine is absolute stable and eats kontakt for breakfest, whats the problem to give their customers maybe one more year with the kontakt versions?

I almost gave up, and thinking about accepting their Sine policies, cause I love their Ark range so much, and was waiting for a sale quiet long.


----------



## Ricgus3 (Dec 21, 2021)

For m with edu discount plus VAT they whole bundle lands on 1124€ way too much for me unfortunately


----------



## szczaw (Dec 21, 2021)

The sound is... too big


----------



## Peter Satera (Dec 21, 2021)

I luckily received an insane deal considering it will be €449. I had all 4 Arks already from NI sales upgrading on EDU completing the bundle brought Ark 5 to €148.84 + VAT. 😲


----------



## filipjonathan (Dec 21, 2021)

MA-Simon said:


> Got the Quartett playable runs. Could come in handy.
> I think it is awesome that I can chose an pick what I want with Sine.


Can it do classic octave runs well? Maybe you could even post a short demo of the runs  I really wanna get it if it sounds good enough.


----------



## Jackal_King (Dec 21, 2021)

I really like the low string stabs from Benjamin Botkin's video. The intro price is a good deal, but I would only make use of maybe 5 patches like the low strings/winds, mix choir and fluegelhorn. But some of these would go quite well as support patches to CSS.


----------



## filipjonathan (Dec 21, 2021)

@David Kudell Great tune David! Kudos for 7/8! That's 'our' rhythm here in the Balkans


----------



## Trash Panda (Dec 21, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Me too, that's just over $1300 CDN. Yikes.


Don't forget the extra charges most banks/cards will apply for paying in a different currency on top of the conversion rate itself.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

Marsen said:


> For me, Ark 5 would be an instabuy, if there wouldn't be this Sine only bundle offer
> 
> I have Ark 3 & 4, which was Kontakt only.
> Now they are ported to Sine.
> ...


Probably because they know most people would buy both just to get the Kontakt version. And it is likely they don't have enough serial numbers to support a large sale of Kontakt versions that they are planning to discontinue. They don't want to pay $1k+ for more licenses they may not sell. According to the NI page, they have to buy in batches.


----------



## David Kudell (Dec 21, 2021)

filipjonathan said:


> @David Kudell Great tune David! Kudos for 7/8! That's 'our' rhythm here in the Balkans


Writing in 7/8 actually made it a lot of fun, that's a new time signature for me. That came about just from coming up with the basic riff using the String shorts, and then I just realized I was playing in 7/8. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 21, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Probably because they know most people would buy both just to get the Kontakt version. And it is likely they don't have enough serial numbers to support a large sale of Kontakt versions that they are planning to discontinue. They don't want to pay $1k+ for more licenses they may not sell. According to the NI page, they have to buy in batches.


Yes, but as i said, i would be willing to pay for these extra licenses cost. 
And I still do believe in OT, although their QA could be better.
And for $1k+ licenses, they may not sell, Sonokinetic put 3.5 k just as freebies for 12 days of christmas out .
Don't get be wrong, Ark 5 intro price is a great offer, as is the bundle price. 

It's more of a fan is dissapointed of the transion performance, it's not a rant.
If they want, they just could offer this service.


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 21, 2021)

My big issue with the Ark series is how fragmented and and Lite it is. Like, are the quartet runs using the same players and same configuration as the small ensemble in 4 so that they work seamlessly together like one patch? Not really. Are the ensemble patches in 5 using the same players and matched up with the patches in 1? No. I love the concept of each one representing a different sound and i understand that means some things can't line up just by their very nature (Ark 4 can't match with Ark 1 because of section sizes, Ark 2 can't match up with 1 because of instrumentation or seating arrangement) but, A, that kind of plays to my point that they're very fragmented, and B, where they had opportunities to unify things, they didn't take them. Anyway 5 does sound great and has a few really nice Zimmer inspired sounds, but I'm not itching to get the whole collection, and may still wind up never picking up a single one


----------



## Bluemount Score (Dec 21, 2021)

Bluemount Score said:


> I'm hoping it's not Ark 5. I'm happy to own the whole collection, which I use very often (I in fact find all four very useful) but another release would give me the strong urge to spend hundreds again to keep the collection complete


Ah, screw it


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

imho. MA 5 content wise is the most attractive for me from all the other MA Arks.

I think it's more musically fulfilling for my taste. Just add your choice of drums/perc , and you have a great toolkit for producing big sounding trailer, and Epic sounding tracks, and much more.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 21, 2021)

Markrs said:


> When I added it to the cart I got €899 as well, with the addition EDU discount


Just checked I do but I get that added VAT


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 21, 2021)

shropshirelad said:


> I could afford it but OT stuff feels overpriced even before the UK VAT is added.


Yep exactly same feeling. It's what limits me from buying anything from OT, especially that added VAT it just makes it too expensive to consider.


----------



## Aitcpiano (Dec 21, 2021)

I mean £899 for the ark bundle I'd consider, but over 1000 for it after VAT is a stronger no. Same with the full main series bundle.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 21, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> My big issue with the Ark series is how fragmented and and Lite it is. Like, are the quartet runs using the same players and same configuration as the small ensemble in 4 so that they work seamlessly together like one patch? Not really. Are the ensemble patches in 5 using the same players and matched up with the patches in 1? No. I love the concept of each one representing a different sound and i understand that means some things can't line up just by their very nature (Ark 4 can't match with Ark 1 because of section sizes, Ark 2 can't match up with 1 because of instrumentation or seating arrangement) but, A, that kind of plays to my point that they're very fragmented, and B, where they had opportunities to unify things, they didn't take them. Anyway 5 does sound great and has a few really nice Zimmer inspired sounds, but I'm not itching to get the whole collection, and may still wind up never picking up a single one


Think at it as a supplement to the main libraries and to orchestrate fast.
They don't have to be the same players.

They work perfect with other libraries too. 
Why should Ark 4 match with Ark 1?

Think of it as a great Tool Box. Take one colour for this, another for adding something else. Possibilties are endless. 
The quartet in 5 have nothing to do with Ark 4. There is no quarted in 4.
You have a Quintet in 3, but different dynamics and articulations. 
It's not a classical Orchestra lib with strict layout.

It's a trailer tool and modern composer tool box with a classical and hybrid sound, i would say.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 21, 2021)

I Love all the audio demos posted so far for MA 5. They all sound amazing, great job by all demo composers, Thanks for your wonderful music, showing MA 5 in action.

MA 5 ROCKS


----------



## Marsen (Dec 21, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Think at it as a supplement to the main libraries and to orchestrate fast.
> They don't have to be the same players.
> 
> They work perfect with other libraries too.
> ...


*edit: not hybrid but rather hyped sound


----------



## Marsen (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I Love all the audio demos posted so far for MA 5. They all sound amazing, great job by all demo composers, Thanks for your wonderful music, showing MA 5 in action.
> 
> MA 5 ROCKS


I abolutely agree on this.
Ark 5 seems to be incredible useful.


----------



## Sunny Schramm (Dec 21, 2021)

Ähhh...wait! 

I worked with the kontakt-versions till today and some minutes ago I said to myself "Let it go and jump on the Sine-Train!"  So I deleted the Kontakt-Versions. Then I play around with the new Ark 3 Sine-Version and after some time I realized: "NO MULTIS???"  Are there really none of the Kontakt-Multis in the Sine-Versions?

 

@OrchestralTools Can I download my Kontakt-Versions again?

EDIT: Thank God - I can download them again!


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Alright, what the hell is up with the choir shorts in Ark 4? Every time I play a chord I get a different syllable for each note in that chord. Completely unusable.


----------



## moon (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Alright, what the hell is up with the choir shorts in Ark 4? Every time I play a chord I get a different syllable for each note in that chord. Completely unusable.


Apparently, that’s an old old old bug.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Alright, what the hell is up with the choir shorts in Ark 4? Every time I play a chord I get a different syllable for each note in that chord. Completely unusable.


That's par for the course for OT, sadly.

@Mike Fox Can you comment on the quality of the legato and power legato patches? I'm definitely getting Ark 4 but trying to decide whether to get it on Kontakt for 400 euros ... or to get it AND Ark 5 on SINE for less than 400 euros. (And yes, I'm so concerned about SINE that I am considering paying a higher price for one Ark library vs a lower price for TWO)

Edit: Actually maybe comment on that in the other dedicated Ark 4 thread instead of here ...


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Alright, what the hell is up with the choir shorts in Ark 4? Every time I play a chord I get a different syllable for each note in that chord. Completely unusable.



Saw it in another thread.




__





How is the legato in Ark 4 on SINE?!


They did it in both Sept 2019, and Oct 2020. Both times, they included all Arks, and the Times, with the 2019 sale also including the Special Bows. Sadly, there was no such sale this year. Oh ok, interesting. Not sure how I missed the one last year to be honest. I'll probably wait until Xmas to...




vi-control.net





Seems like a bug from 2 years ago...


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Saw it in another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2 years ago?! What the fack?!

Truly unfortunate, as this was one of the main selling points for me.


----------



## Go To 11 (Dec 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Saw it in another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I need reminders like this of why I’m avoiding this sale, and SINE. Someone said in another thread that the OT Legato update during BF this year was ‘one data point’ and god that stuck with me. Such a powerful insight.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

tim727 said:


> That's par for the course for OT, sadly.
> 
> @Mike Fox Can you comment on the quality of the legato and power legato patches? I'm definitely getting Ark 4 but trying to decide whether to get it on Kontakt for 400 euros ... or to get it AND Ark 5 on SINE for less than 400 euros. (And yes, I'm so concerned about SINE that I am considering paying a higher price for one Ark library vs a lower price for TWO)
> 
> Edit: Actually maybe comment on that in the other dedicated Ark 4 thread instead of here ...


Sure. Anything in particular you're looking for? Just the legato quality itself?


----------



## Eptesicus (Dec 21, 2021)

Go To 11 said:


> I need reminders like this of why I’m avoiding this sale, and SINE. Someone said in another thread that the OT Legato update during BF this year was ‘one data point’ and god that stuck with me. Such a powerful insight.



Same. I'm tempted but i had a miserable time with SINE's stability with the JXL Brass release, and it is still not that wonderful to this day. If i could go back and knew what i know now about SINE, I wouldnt have bought JXL brass :(

If all these sales were on the Kontakt versions of the libraries i would not hesitate.

Can't risk shelling out so much money on non resell-able libraries that run on SINE.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Sure. Anything in particular you're looking for? Just the legato quality itself?


I would like to make sure it doesn't suffer from the weird artifacts, volume changes, and spatial/panning changes as could be heard in the Berlin Mains SINE ports. Have you noticed any of that?

Beyond that I'm just curious as to your overall impression of the legato. Does it sound pretty good as a whole? How are you finding the power legato (on strings especially)?

And what do you feel about the general tone of the library? Does anything seem "off" to you? Does it indeed seem to sit well with the other Arks? Normally I would think this would go without question but I'm just particularly wary after the Berlin Mains SINE debacle.

I really appreciate your help by the way!


----------



## Go To 11 (Dec 21, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> Same. I'm tempted but i had a miserable time with SINE's stability with the JXL Brass release, and it is still not that wonderful to this day. If i could go back and knew what i know now about SINE, I wouldnt have bought JXL brass :(
> 
> If all these sales were on the Kontakt versions of the libraries i would not hesitate.
> 
> Can't risk shelling out so much money on non resell-able libraries that run on SINE.


I only have the solo woodwinds in SINE and they are a disaster. Adaptive Legato; their pride and joy, has just been totally binned. It makes no sense. I can’t make the patch how it was in Kontakt. Nothing comes pre-loaded any more. I have to be a scripter and build the whole performance with a poly map but it still doesn’t work the same. That used to be their job not mine. Horrible.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> imho. MA 5 content wise is the most attractive for me from all the other MA Arks.
> 
> I think it's more musically fulfilling for my taste. Just add your choice of drums/perc , and you have a great toolkit for producing big sounding trailer, and Epic sounding tracks, and much more.


I'm curious if you could elaborate on what parts you find particularly compelling? I'm just about wrapping up the Ben Botkin walkthrough and so far I feel very underwhelmed. There were moments where I thought the playable runs sounded good. And others where they didn't, and I'm not sure if that was because of his playing (no offense to him) or because the transitions actually just aren't great. 

Have you given the runs -- particularly on strings but also the other sections -- much of a play through yet? If so how do you find them? How do you find the legato as well?


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Dec 21, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Cory pellazzi has a great video that goes through all four arks in detail, then says what each is best aligned for, and then a great demo track for each.


yes.. The arks on Kontakt though ..


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 21, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Cory pellazzi has a great video that goes through all four arks in detail, then says what each is best aligned for, and then a great demo track for each.




Luckily all 4 *(Now 5!) of the arks walkthroughs are excellent and have a bunch of small compositions that you can use to really get an idea of how the lib sounds. Much more time-consuming to run through them this way, but you do get a really solid idea of each Ark.

Once you start playing library walkthroughs instead of podcasts on jogs you know you're in too deep.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Once you start playing library walkthroughs instead of podcasts on jogs you know you're in too deep.


I've been doing that for weeks


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Dec 21, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I've been doing that for weeks


join the support group! 😆


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

Fever Phoenix said:


> join the support group! 😆


Wait, I thought this _*was*_ the support group?


----------



## dunamisstudio (Dec 21, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Once you start playing library walkthroughs instead of podcasts on jogs you know you're in too deep.


I do that on my drive to work.


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Dec 21, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Wait, I thought this _*was*_ the support group?


no, my friend, this is the let's go down the rabbit hole, take your wallet with you and never come back group!


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Dec 21, 2021)

tbh I want to be all over this, I "only" have MA4 from this series.. but my recent Berlin Brass Sine purchase let's me hesitate..

well.. got two weeks time to decide, right?

...


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Alright, what the hell is up with the choir shorts in Ark 4? Every time I play a chord I get a different syllable for each note in that chord. Completely unusable.


It’s like OT doesn’t have composers on staff regularly using their libraries.


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Dec 21, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> It’s like OT doesn’t have composers on staff regularly using their libraries.


I am probably a minority, but with the exception of Tallinn I do not like the OT choirs..


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I would like to make sure it doesn't suffer from the weird artifacts, volume changes, and spatial/panning changes as could be heard in the Berlin Mains SINE ports. Have you noticed any of that?
> 
> Beyond that I'm just curious as to your overall impression of the legato. Does it sound pretty good as a whole? How are you finding the power legato (on strings especially)?
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that I don't have the Kontakt version to compare it to, so my observations may not mean as much, but here it goes...

No weird artifacts that i noticed (yet), aside from a repeated "knock" type of sound from then high string power legatos. I'm not sure what this is from, possibly re-bowing? Pretty sure it's some sort of movement from the players though, because I've heard the same sound come from smaller sized and solo string libraries. Hopefully someone more experienced than myself can comment on this. I'm gonna go with re-bowing, but don't quote me on that! The sound just seems to be more frequent than what I've heard from other libraries.

The legato itself is nothing special. It's good, but nothing to write home about, same with the playability. It's useable.

Regarding the overall tone, I'm kinda torn, tbh. It's smaller sections recorded upfront and close. You can pretty much eliminate all that reverb that the Arks are known for if desired, or you can turn up the tree mic, and the sound becomes pretty huge.

But here's the kicker, this library feels more polished than Ark 1 and 3 (can't comment on the other Arks since I haven't played them yet), as if there was some sort of filter applied to smooth things out. Unfortunately, this takes away the raw edginess that the Arks normally have. I could be completely on crack (probably the case), but this is what my ears are telling me. It could even be some sort of noise filter they applied.

Blending - It will blend just fine with the other Arks due to the mic options and the fact that it was recorded in the same space, so I wouldn't worry about that. It's mostly center panned, so you'll have the freedom to pan however you like.

Overall, I feel like the tone of Ark is an acquired taste by itself, but will probably prove to be more useful when layered with other libs. I also feel like Ark 4 is even more of a grab bag of orchestral colors than Ark 1 and 3 (which feels more complete). The percussion is ridiculously limited, and doesn't seem to be as vast as it is in Ark 1 and 3. Pretty big disappointment there.

Perhaps the biggest disappointment are the choirs. They sound great, but as we already know, the shorts are pretty much unusable due to the bug that hasn't been fixed in 2 years (really, OT?). This was a huge selling point for me, and I kinda feel like I got kicked in the dick.

Furthermore, there's SINE, for better or for worse. I personally think it's just OK. It does feel a little sluggish when it comes to playability, and Sine has crashed on me far more times than kontakt ever has. Meh.

In retrospect, I probably wouldn't have bought the library. It saddens me to say it, but I had REALLY high hopes for Ark 4. Don't get me wrong, there's definitely some cool stuff in here, but I don't think I'll be using it nearly as much as thought I would.

So there ya have it. Your findings and experience may be totally different than mine, so just take all this with a grain of salt.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 21, 2021)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I am probably a minority, but with the exception of Tallinn I do not like the OT choirs..


I like the Ark 1 choir and the men and women from Ark 2 (though they don’t sound like they belong together as a choir). The syllables mostly work for both Ark 1 & 2 choirs, something I can’t say for the Tallinn choir even after the update that was supposed to fix it…


----------



## lettucehat (Dec 21, 2021)

Would love to hear the string power legatos, but very much appreciate all that you've shared so far. If only they had those per instrument audio demos as usual...


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Would love to hear the string power legatos, but very much appreciate all that you've shared so far. If only they had those per instrument audio demos as usual...


Not sure why i thought it was a knocking sound (maybe cause of the wood?), but it just sounds like re-bowing to me.


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 21, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Would love to hear the string power legatos, but very much appreciate all that you've shared so far. If only they had those per instrument audio demos as usual...







__





Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 4 - Elite Orchestral Forces


Not really. Most people (including me) probably have other things on their minds than doing demos of this new library right now close to christmas and all. Sorry, but just because I buy a new sample library, my first goal isn't normally to go out and do a demo of it. Frankly, I see your post...




vi-control.net


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anything in that thread will showcase Kontakt Ark 4, not SINE Ark 4. We're trying to understand if they're the same or not.


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Not sure why i thought it was a knocking sound (maybe cause of the wood?), but it just sounds like re-bowing to me.


Are you sure the patch your playing says Power Legato?
You can listen and look at the patch name in this video. (around 1:17)


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Would love to hear the string power legatos, but very much appreciate all that you've shared so far. If only they had those per instrument audio demos as usual...


Yeah that would have been nice. Not only do they not have them 4 but they don't have them for 5 either! I wonder if they will have a SINE walkthrough for Ark 4. This did for Ark 1 and 2 and I feel like that would help clear some concerns up.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

One observation about the legatos is that fast notes tend to blur into eachother.


Raphioli said:


> Are you sure the patch your playing says Power Legato?
> You can listen and look at the patch name in this video. (around 1:17)



I’ll double check!


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Are you sure the patch your playing says Power Legato?
> You can listen and look at the patch name in this video. (around 1:17)



That clip is the full ensemble (layered). This is just the high strings, but it is the power legato patch.


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


>


Hmm... So no other patches with "Power" in them?
I wonder if they merged patches when porting over to SINE. (maybe making power legato trigger depending velocity or something)
Because the example doesn't sound like the power legato I've heard in the official Kontakt version walkthrough.

Thanks for checking btw 

EDIT:
I do hear a few slurred transitions in the example. (can be clearly heard at 0:06, and it does sound good. don't hear any sustain samples bleeding in to the transition samples, and vise versa)


----------



## tim727 (Dec 21, 2021)

@Mike Fox It sounds like that "noise" in the samples can also be heard in the original OT Ark 4 walkthrough, though it sounds more pronounced in the snippet you've supplied. The supplied link is already at the right time in the video: 

In the video you can hear it a bit more clearly when they get into the upper registers.

That noise aside though, to me the legato feels different in the clip you posted from what you hear in the above video. Am I crazy or are others hearing the same thing?


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Hmm... So no other patches with "Power" in them?
> I wonder if they merged patches when porting over to SINE. (maybe making power legato trigger depending velocity or something)
> Because the example doesn't sound like the power legato I've heard in the official Kontakt version walkthrough.
> 
> ...


Yeah, there are definitely other power legato patches! I just used the patch for the high strings.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

tim727 said:


> @Mike Fox It sounds like that "noise" in the samples can also be heard in the original OT Ark 4 walkthrough, though it sounds more pronounced in the snippet you've supplied. The supplied link is already at the right time in the video:
> 
> In the video you can hear it a bit more clearly when they get into the upper registers.
> 
> That noise aside though, to me the legato feels different in the clip you posted from what you hear in the above video. Am I crazy or are others hearing the same thing?



Could be some placebo effect, but the Kontakt version sounds more raw to me, which would actually support my observation of the Sine version of Ark 4 sounding more polished. You also have to keep in mind that the mic levels are different in the video than my clip, so that could have something to do with it.

I dunno, I hesitate to make any assumptions, but there were a lot of people (including myself) who thought the Sine version of Berlin Strings sounded different.

Either way, i feel like I've been mind fu$%ed. 

What do differences do you hear?


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Could be some placebo effect, but the Kontakt version sounds more raw to me, which would actually support my observation of the Sine version of Ark 4 sounding more polished. You also have to keep in mind that the mic levels are different in the video than my clip, so that could have something to do with it.
> 
> I dunno, I hesitate to make any assumptions, but there were a lot of people (including myself) who thought the Sine version of Berlin Strings sounded different.
> 
> Either way, i feel like I've been mind fu$%ed.


 Have you tried this out?




__





Orchestral Tools: Berlin Series on SINE now!


Interesting, in Trumpets Ensemble they didn't record a new FF layer, they actually recorded an F layer under the old FF... and added a separate FFF as a bonus. It shows they used their ears :thumbsup:




vi-control.net





Sorry if you did. Remembered seeing this when I read your post.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Hmm... So no other patches with "Power" in them?
> I wonder if they merged patches when porting over to SINE. (maybe making power legato trigger depending velocity or something)
> Because the example doesn't sound like the power legato I've heard in the official Kontakt version walkthrough.
> 
> ...


Here are the Power Sustains.


----------



## jcrosby (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Could be some placebo effect, but the Kontakt version sounds more raw to me, which would actually support my observation of the Sine version of Ark 4 sounding more polished. You also have to keep in mind that the mic levels are different in the video than my clip, so that could have something to do with it.
> 
> I dunno, I hesitate to make any assumptions, but there were a lot of people (including myself) who thought the Sine version of Berlin Strings sounded different.


The Arks for sure do, it's not dramatic but I noticed it right away with Ark 1. Here's an email I sent them when Ark 1 was 1st ported to SINE:

ME:

_Hi guys, I was just curious if you guys made any tweaks to the samples or playback engine. Basically I'm wondering if the Sine version should sound identical, or if any tweaks to the samples or sample engine were made in the Sine version? _

OT:

_In general the sound should be very much the same.
Some patches might sound better, because there's less internal processing going on.
We tweaked the legato and release behaviour, but there should be no dramatic changes._


In another email I sent (I'm having a hard time tracking it down right now), they said the attack shapes are different in SINE. The Shorts in particular have more pre-transient than they did in Kontakt.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

Raphioli said:


> Have you tried this out?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's really interesting, especially since more headroom should be the only real noticeable difference between 44 and 48, but I'll give it a shot!


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> The Arks for sure do, it's not dramatic but I noticed it right away with Ark 1. Here's an email I sent them when Ark 1 was 1st ported to SINE:
> 
> ME:
> 
> ...


And there ya have it folks!


----------



## jcrosby (Dec 21, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> And there ya have it folks!


Updated my previous reply... 
TL;DR - They confirmed in another email that there's more pre-transient info in the shorts in the Sine version...


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 21, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Updated my previous reply...
> TL;DR - They confirmed in another email that there's more pre-transient info in the shorts in the Sine version...


Well, I’ll be DIPPED!


----------



## lettucehat (Dec 21, 2021)

Thanks for the power legato demos! It would be great to have some insight from anyone who has both Kontakt and Sine versions how the legato compares. Yes, there are videos showing the Kontakt versions but obviously side by side comparisons are best! Although I guess there's not much point if someone (like me) is mostly interested in a few patches. The price difference between a la carte and the full package puts the full version out of contention honestly. Certain strings and brass though, sound incredible and worth it even if they aren't identical to the Kontakt versions.


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 21, 2021)

lettucehat said:


> Thanks for the power legato demos! It would be great to have some insight from anyone who has both Kontakt and Sine versions how the legato compares. Yes, there are videos showing the Kontakt versions but obviously side by side comparisons are best! Although I guess there's not much point if someone (like me) is mostly interested in a few patches. The price difference between a la carte and the full package puts the full version out of contention honestly. Certain strings and brass though, sound incredible and worth it even if they aren't identical to the Kontakt versions.


OT's always had a SINE walkthrough on every port so eventually, there will be a good way to compare some stuff. I don't recall if the mini compositions they do are identical in Kontakt and SINE. If so that'll be a very nice way to compare


----------



## Soundbed (Dec 21, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I luckily received an insane deal considering it will be €449. I had all 4 Arks already from NI sales upgrading on EDU completing the bundle brought Ark 5 to €148.84 + VAT. 😲


Crap!! I should have registered Arks 3 and 4 before purchasing five?


----------



## Soundbed (Dec 21, 2021)

Well, in either case I decided to immediately start writing with Ark 5. I didn’t even try to test it. It’s a joy to write with (for me). Certainly doesn’t have every sound I’ll need for a cue but it’s, as they say, a great toolbox. 

Here’s my first few minutes with it:






Metropolis Ark 5 - First Play - Working Session


Bought this as soon as I saw it (not sponsored). This time I wanted to simply start writing. I own the other four Arks and I'm comfortable with them. So sitting down and writing made the most sense. Then I realized there's no percussion! So I added some basic "trailer" perc to have it ready...




vi-control.net


----------



## Peter Satera (Dec 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Crap!! I should have registered Arks 3 and 4 before purchasing five?


Yeah, if you had all 4, and did an upgrade deal. Then yes. It would have dropped it to 166Euro + VAT. It's 148.84Euro + VAT for all 4 +EDU.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> imho. MA 5 content wise is the most attractive for me from all the other MA Arks.
> 
> I think it's more musically fulfilling for my taste. Just add your choice of drums/perc , and you have a great toolkit for producing big sounding trailer, and Epic sounding tracks, and much more.


Plus, there are strings!


----------



## Soundbed (Dec 21, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Yeah, if you had all 4, and did an upgrade deal. Then yes. It would have dropped it to 166Euro + VAT. It's 148.84Euro + VAT for all 4 +EDU.


Crap I guess I’ll be emailing them.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 21, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Crap!! I should have registered Arks 3 and 4 before purchasing five?


Yes! Would have saved a lot. Perhaps they will fix it for you


----------



## tim727 (Dec 22, 2021)

@Mike Fox I greatly appreciate you taking the time to provide your feed back and to post a couple audio snippets here. Is there any chance I could trouble you for a few more of both the regular and power legato ... again in particular for strings?


----------



## onnomusic (Dec 22, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> The Arks for sure do, it's not dramatic but I noticed it right away with Ark 1. Here's an email I sent them when Ark 1 was 1st ported to SINE:
> 
> ME:
> 
> ...


did you by any chance notice the shorts being tighter in sine? (better startpoint editing I mean?)


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## tim727 (Dec 22, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Could be some placebo effect, but the Kontakt version sounds more raw to me, which would actually support my observation of the Sine version of Ark 4 sounding more polished. You also have to keep in mind that the mic levels are different in the video than my clip, so that could have something to do with it.
> 
> I dunno, I hesitate to make any assumptions, but there were a lot of people (including myself) who thought the Sine version of Berlin Strings sounded different.
> 
> ...


As for what I'm hearing, it's hard to describe. It just feels like perhaps the transitions are more prominent or -- powerful sounding -- in the original OT walkthrough versus your audio snippet. It's hard to tell though. Part of me wonders if I'm hearing things, but given all the feedback on the SINE ports I'd guess I'm most likely not. I think the considerable noise in the samples is not helping either since it's actually rather prominent. That also sound to me to be much more prevalent than in the OT walkthrough, though I suppose that might have to do with mic positions. Do you recall what mic setup you have for what you recorded? Or the close mics heavily weighted in the mix for instance?


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## Breaker (Dec 22, 2021)

Regarding the Ark 4 choir shorts, I spent the better part of this morning testing this out, and...

The whole SINE Ark 4 works like the choir shorts do - playing a three note chord assigns a different RR for each note. Basically if you are repeating a three note chord with a patch with 6 RR's, you get two different variations, essentially two RR's
Also the Ark 3 works this way, while the older ports Ark 1 & 2 don't.

I also noticed that the whole SINE Berlin series (mains and BSS) behave this way as well.

In the Kontakt/Capsule versions all these instruments (except the Ark 4 choir shorts) are working as they (IMO) should when the "Polyphonic RR" switch is enabled (which it is by default).

I just mailed OT support asking which way they think their libraries should work.


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## gst98 (Dec 22, 2021)

@Soundbed Can I ask a question about the string shorts - in your video you didn't seem too enamoured (neither did ben) - do the separate high and low strings patches have the 8 dynamics of the combined patch?

also is there much difference between the playable runs in the standard high and low strings compared to the large sections? (other than the low woods with the strings) thanks!


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## MartinH. (Dec 22, 2021)

Wow, I didn't want to touch Sine and I didn't even know half the stuff yet you are all complaining about 



jbuhler said:


> It’s like OT doesn’t have composers on staff regularly using their libraries.


They wouldn't even need to, since plenty of bugs are known to them. It just looks like they don't allocate the resources to fix them.




Sunny Schramm said:


> I worked with the kontakt-versions till today and some minutes ago I said to myself "Let it go and jump on the Sine-Train!"  So I deleted the Kontakt-Versions.


What gave you the confidence that this is a good idea and you won't need your Kontakt versions anymore? And don't you have old projects that you want to be able to open again? And why didn't you back the libraries up? I'll accept "alcohol" as an answer to all those questions 




Breaker said:


> The whole SINE Ark 4 works like the choir shorts do - playing a three note chord assigns a different RR for each note. Basically if you are repeating a three note chord with a patch with 6 RR's, you get two different variations, essentially two RR's
> Also the Ark 3 works this way, while the older ports Ark 1 & 2 don't.


Can you please double check that on the Ark 1 high strings spiccato articulation? This is the only Ark 1 Sine patch I bothered to test (a long time ago) and I noticed quickly that the RR index moves globally instead of per note, so with note pattern count = RR count you would get the behaviour that you describe. Iirc the RR count was 5, but better double check. I expect you'll see 5 note (or whatever the RR count is) chords essentially not having RR for all intents and purposes. And if you didn't notice in Ark 1 and 2, is it possible that you tried the same 3-note chords, but the patches all have RR counts other than multiples of 3? That would hide the issue.
I'm starting to think this is a general Sine limitation by design because someone was too lazy to use an array of RR indices instead of a single RR index while coding the RR feature. If that's the case, consider my mind blown.


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## Sunny Schramm (Dec 22, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> What gave you the confidence that this is a good idea and you won't need your Kontakt versions anymore? And don't you have old projects that you want to be able to open again? And why didn't you back the libraries up? I'll accept "alcohol" as an answer to all those questions


No old projects I would put my hands back on. I know - I´m always too good minded and maybe a little too impulsive/excited  Why should I backup 140GB when I (wanna) believe/trust in newer (hopefully better) products 🤷🏻‍♂️

But I learned my lesson and got my kontakt-versions back!


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## Breaker (Dec 22, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Can you please double check that on the Ark 1 high strings spiccato articulation? This is the only Ark 1 Sine patch I bothered to test (a long time ago) and I noticed quickly that the RR index moves globally instead of per note, so with note pattern count = RR count you would get the behaviour that you describe. Iirc the RR count was 5, but better double check. I expect you'll see 5 note (or whatever the RR count is) chords essentially not having RR for all intents and purposes. And if you didn't notice in Ark 1 and 2, is it possible that you tried the same 3-note chords, but the patches all have RR counts other than multiples of 3? That would hide the issue.
> I'm starting to think this is a general Sine limitation by design because someone was too lazy to use an array of RR indices instead of a single RR index while coding the RR feature. If that's the case, consider my mind blown.


I just had SINE running so it was easy to check:

Ark 1 hi strings spiccattos unisons (5 RR's) and octaves (6 RR's) behave like I stated above with 2, 3, 4 and 5 note chords (and playing chords of different roots). The RR indicator moves forward one slice per chord.
It's also interesting that playing keys outside of the instrument’s playable range makes the RR indicator move forward. A small thing but makes me even more confused how this thing was programmed in the first place.


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## Evans (Dec 22, 2021)




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## Soundbed (Dec 22, 2021)

gst98 said:


> @Soundbed Can I ask a question about the string shorts - in your video you didn't seem too enamoured (neither did ben) - do the separate high and low strings patches have the 8 dynamics of the combined patch?
> 
> also is there much difference between the playable runs in the standard high and low strings compared to the large sections? (other than the low woods with the strings) thanks!


I liked the strings shorts just fine. I immediately wrote something with them which is great. That was literally the first time I played all those patches. I wasn’t listening for number of dynamics layers or differences between runs patches, sorry! I might swing back around to analyze in detail but I’d think both your questions might get answered by OT support accurately too.


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## Evans (Dec 22, 2021)

gst98 said:


> do the separate high and low strings patches have the 8 dynamics of the combined patch?


Yes


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## gst98 (Dec 22, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I liked the strings shorts just fine. I immediately wrote something with them which is great. That was literally the first time I played all those patches. I wasn’t listening for number of dynamics layers or differences between runs patches, sorry! I might swing back around to analyze in detail but I’d think both your questions might get answered by OT support accurately too.


Thanks. I got the 2 large sections, mainly for the shepards and gliss fx, as well as the runs. The runs in the Low string+winds are really good, but find the high strings runs a bit lacking. Just wondering if the smaller section Hi strings were any better in that regard. Btw I was just going off of when you said something along the lines of there didn't seem to be many mid-dynamics in the shorts. Thought OT support was a lost cause as they always seem to take a couple weeks to get back to me.

Kind of annoyed also that OT don't list anywhere that the high strings are in octaves, unlike how they do with Ark 1, but I know it's not the first time people have noticed inaccurate or misleading stuff on the website, in addition to there being no instrument previews or official walkthrough yet. Oh well.


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## Peter Satera (Dec 22, 2021)

I really like Ark 5's sound, and what IS there is awesome... But the library has a hole in it that no other Ark fills and has me scratching my head a little. There's too many sections missing just a standard Sustain patch. To me, it makes little sense because the sound these are recorded in do not align with previous Arks and it takes a lot of resources or work to blend it into what is there.

For instance, if we look at Ark 5: There's no Low Brass Sustains (Not Mellow). The Tuba/Trombone/ Cimbassi in Ark 1 - 4 doesn't match the combined Low Brass sound in Ark 5, therefore if you want to have a run play into a sustain note, or a marcato run into sustain, there's nothing that can be blended here to get it spot on. It's rather strange to have all these additional patches, but not a sustain patch when no other Ark has this sound, Ark 1 has separate low instruments, ark 2 it's soft, ark 3 it's rhythm, ark 4 it's chamber sized. Leaving Ark 5 calling out for Sustained versions of the Ark 5 Ensemble Sounds.

The same goes for Violins / Trumpets. Such as, there's no trumpet ensemble legato by itself in any of the arks, while we're given 'Trumpet and Violins'. Therefore you need to create a performance patch from the Ark 1 Trumpets a4 Sus, Ark 4 Legato Trumpets and Ark 5 Trumpets Playable Runs if you want to have a consistent sound.

I find it really strange they've sided with giving us Marc', Stac, Cresc/Decres', Playable Runs, Mellow Patches, High Blended Instruments Legatos but no *Standard Sustains of this exact sound*. If it's a trailer library too, Low Brass Sustains are a must to accompany that soaring Horn/Celli.


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## Soundbed (Dec 22, 2021)

gst98 said:


> Btw I was just going off of when you said something along the lines of there didn't seem to be many mid-dynamics in the shorts. Thought OT support was a lost cause as they always seem to take a couple weeks to get back to me.


Ohhhh I hope other people don't get the wrong impression or misled by what I said in the video. I was saying I was using this really thin CME 2 octave keyboard, and the keyboard basically goes from 1 to 127 and is a little difficult to play velocities in between. I've got the response curve dialed in as much as I can but I need to play very gently with a lot of care to get "middle" velocities without accidentally touching the key hard enough to go to 127.


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## gst98 (Dec 22, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Ohhhh I hope other people don't get the wrong impression or misled by what I said in the video. I was saying I was using this really thin CME 2 octave keyboard, and the keyboard basically goes from 1 to 127 and is a little difficult to play velocities in between. I've got the response curve dialed in as much as I can but I need to play very gently with a lot of care to get "middle" velocities without accidentally touching the key hard enough to go to 127.


ahh I see! don't worry that was probably my fault not yours


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## Mike Fox (Dec 22, 2021)

tim727 said:


> @Mike Fox I greatly appreciate you taking the time to provide your feed back and to post a couple audio snippets here. Is there any chance I could trouble you for a few more of both the regular and power legato ... again in particular for strings?


I might have some time today to do that.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 22, 2021)

tim727 said:


> As for what I'm hearing, it's hard to describe. It just feels like perhaps the transitions are more prominent or -- powerful sounding -- in the original OT walkthrough versus your audio snippet. It's hard to tell though. Part of me wonders if I'm hearing things, but given all the feedback on the SINE ports I'd guess I'm most likely not. I think the considerable noise in the samples is not helping either since it's actually rather prominent. That also sound to me to be much more prevalent than in the OT walkthrough, though I suppose that might have to do with mic positions. Do you recall what mic setup you have for what you recorded? Or the close mics heavily weighted in the mix for instance?


I think think the mics were just straight outta the box, though the included mics are pretty flexible and offer a lot of wiggle room for tone.


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## DrSgtShock (Dec 22, 2021)

Very happy to complete the series but I’m not really feeling the theming behind ark 5. I mean I get it’s function (trailer toolkit) but where does it fit into the ark cinematic universe? Ark II is the underground, Ark III is the machines, Ark IV is the… robot or something, and Ark I is the… uh… you know what? Never mind.


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## Soundbed (Dec 22, 2021)

DrSgtShock said:


> Very happy to complete the series but I’m not really feeling the theming behind ark 5. I mean I get it’s function (trailer toolkit) but where does it fit into the ark cinematic universe? Ark II is the underground, Ark III is the machines, Ark IV is the… robot or something, and Ark I is the… uh… you know what? Never mind.


So far — and my viewpoint is subject to change — I see it as a sort of an "Abbey Road One Foundations and current Expansions, without percussion but with choir" sort of library.

I don't think of it as specifically for trailers ... even though they mention trailers.

Marketing blurb says, "a detailed toolkit for any kind of cinematic trailers *and powerful music*"

ok


"Construct epic, Wagnerian themes,"

ok

"build tension with swells and sustains, and add thrills with dramatic stabs, rips, and glissandos"

ok

"Detail and realism combine"

... I guess that has to do with the string quartet? Maybe there's other "detail" patches I need to explore...

...

"with an epic musical vision to give you an arsenal of inspiration"

I definitely agree it's inspiring....

"for trailers, *scores, underscoring, and grand musical statements*."

sure!

I mean, it's difficult to sum that up in one word. Maybe "Grand Gestures" sums it up?

Ark 1 = Loud fff
Ark 2 = Deep, subtle
Ark 3 = Percussive
Ark 4 = Elite forces (small groups cutting through)
Ark 5 = Grand gestures (?)


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 22, 2021)

A question for those of you with both Ark 5 and Berlin Mains: Obviously these were both recorded in Teldex, but do they sit well together? And does it sound realistic? There seem to be some pretty useful techniques in Ark 5 that are missing from the Berlin Mains, and I am wondering if Ark 5 will complement the Berlin Mains? Any insight would be helpful. Thanks. (Yeah, I know, it's not gonna matter if OT doesn't fix the bugs.)


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 22, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> A question for those of you with both Ark 5 and Berlin Mains: Obviously these were both recorded in Teldex, but do they sit well together? And does it sound realistic? There seem to be some pretty useful techniques in Ark 5 that are missing from the Berlin Mains, and I am wondering if Ark 5 will complement the Berlin Mains? Any insight would be helpful. Thanks. (Yeah, I know, it's not gonna matter if OT doesn't fix the bugs.)


You won't have any trouble mixing the Ark series with the Berlin series. Same sets of microphones and same production (identical AB, Tree & Surround mics, various Spot & Close mics). Only difference is in the seatings, as the Ark sections are very different. For instance, the High Strings in Ark 2 are left & right. Basses at the center, etc. But nothing you can't fix with some repositionning.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 22, 2021)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> You won't have any trouble mixing the Ark series with the Berlin series. Same sets of microphones and same production (identical AB, Tree & Surround mics, various Spot & Close mics). Only difference is in the seatings, as the Ark sections are very different. For instance, the High Strings in Ark 2 are left & right. Basses at the center, etc. But nothing you can't fix with some repositionning.


Thank you. Very helpful. I can't think of a library I own that isn't recorded in SITU, so I don't usually mess with libraries on that level. Is this something that would be corrected with a tool? (Seems like there is something called pagenator or some such.) Or would you simply pan the patch?


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## Casiquire (Dec 22, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> Thank you. Very helpful. I can't think of a library I own that isn't recorded in SITU, so I don't usually mess with libraries on that level. Is this something that would be corrected with a tool? (Seems like there is something called pagenator or some such.) Or would you simply pan the patch?


I'm not sure if you're familiar with it but there's a free tool called Panagement. i still reach for Panagement even though I have MIR because sometimes MIR would be total overkill, so it's a really useful plugin. It doesn't do anything revolutionary, it's just clean, easy to use, and transparent, with some extras like a Tilt feature and built in reverb i never use


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 22, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm not sure if you're familiar with it but there's a free tool called Panagement. i still reach for Panagement even though I have MIR because sometimes MIR would be total overkill, so it's a really useful plugin. It doesn't do anything revolutionary, it's just clean, easy to use, and transparent, with some extras like a Tilt feature and built in reverb i never use


Thanks. That was what I was trying to name up above, and I couldn't quite remember the name. Pan not page. . . . Duh!


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## AllanH (Dec 22, 2021)

Ark5 inspired me to finally try my Ark 1/2 with Sine. Sine had previously been "unresponsive" on my computer but the most recent version of Sine (1.0.8) works fine and I have yet to have any crashes or surprises. 

MA 1 and 2 both work fine and sound excellent, but I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed that not all features of the Kontakt instruments have been ported over. So Sine is no longer a roadblock for me as far as considering other OT products.


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## Chungus (Dec 22, 2021)

In case someone hasn't seen it yet;



Wish those runs patches were in the Berlin Mains, too. They sound great. Also, there's a editing mistake in the walkthrough. lol


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## tim727 (Dec 22, 2021)

Evans said:


>



Am I the only one noticing oddities in the playable runs? For instance at 8:49 and 9:01 ... is it just me or isn't there like a release sample or something that is sounding on a delay of some sort?


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 22, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Am I the only one noticing oddities in the playable runs? For instance at 8:49 and 9:01 ... is it just me or isn't there like a release sample or something that is sounding on a delay of some sort?


There is definitely a ghost there.


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## tim727 (Dec 22, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> There is definitely a ghost there.


It's things like this that just make me super wary of OT's QC. I think I'll get Ark 5 anyway because I'll be able to get it for less than $200, which even with those kinds of issues I think is still worth it. But it does make me wary of getting Ark 4 on SINE instead of Kontakt (even though it would save me ~$220 to do that).


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## Fever Phoenix (Dec 22, 2021)

tim727 said:


> It's things like this that just make me super wary of OT's QC. I think I'll get Ark 5 anyway because I'll be able to get it for less than $200, which even with those kinds of issues I think is still worth it. But it does make me wary of getting Ark 4 on SINE instead of Kontakt (even though it would save me ~$220 to do that).




After being very disappointed with the purchase of Berlin Brass on Sine I again am becoming cautious when it comes to OT. The still not very convincing Sine Player and the very slow if at all ever happening fixes/patches make me look elsewhere atm... Yes, the bundle is tempting, but I just don't see myself using Sine in my template a lot, except maybe for Tallinn every other month..


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 22, 2021)

tim727 said:


> It's things like this that just make me super wary of OT's QC. I think I'll get Ark 5 anyway because I'll be able to get it for less than $200, which even with those kinds of issues I think is still worth it. But it does make me wary of getting Ark 4 on SINE instead of Kontakt (even though it would save me ~$220 to do that).





Fever Phoenix said:


> After being very disappointed with the purchase of Berlin Brass on Sine I again am becoming cautious when it comes to OT. The still not very convincing Sine Player and the very slow if at all ever happening fixes/patches make me look elsewhere atm... Yes, the bundle is tempting, but I just don't see myself using Sine in my template a lot, except maybe for Tallinn every other month..


I have weighed this carefully. I was pretty burned by the lackadaisical response to mic merging in BSS, and I find Woodwind Soloists to be fairly unusable. So I thought really hard about it before I jumped on Berlin Mains and Ark 5. The way I figure it is that they are fully in bed with Sine now, and they have to make this marriage work. If they don't, bye-bye OT. If they don't fix this crap, they'll be done.


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## Marsen (Dec 22, 2021)

I still have crashes with Sine on Logic, and this totally sucks.
I'm torn between their crappy player, and their great sound.


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## jbuhler (Dec 22, 2021)

tim727 said:


> It's things like this that just make me super wary of OT's QC. I think I'll get Ark 5 anyway because I'll be able to get it for less than $200, which even with those kinds of issues I think is still worth it. But it does make me wary of getting Ark 4 on SINE instead of Kontakt (even though it would save me ~$220 to do that).


Except the Kontakt versions have issues too. The a9 horn rips for instance misfire in Kontakt. (They are fixed in the Sine version.)


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## Marsen (Dec 22, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Except the Kontakt versions have issues too. The a9 horn rips for instance misfire in Kontakt. (They are fixed in the Sine version.)


Good point.
But it does not help, if the player isn't stable.
I wonder, if this mainly an issue with logic. I don't hear these problems from Cubase or Studio One. Or am I wrong?
I wonder, which systems Berklee students use/prefer.
Shouldn't OT get responses of the use of Sine with BO from Berklee too?


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## charlieclouser (Dec 22, 2021)

So... just trying to get clear on this: Ark 5 is ONLY available in Sine format right? No Kontakt version at all?


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## Evans (Dec 22, 2021)

charlieclouser said:


> So... just trying to get clear on this: Ark 5 is ONLY available in Sine format right? No Kontakt version at all?


Correct


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## Eptesicus (Dec 22, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Good point.
> But it does not help, if the player isn't stable.
> I wonder, if this mainly an issue with logic. I don't hear these problems from Cubase or Studio One. Or am I wrong?
> I wonder, which systems Berklee students use/prefer.
> Shouldn't OT get responses of the use of Sine with BO from Berklee too?



It is a crashtastic mess in cubase too (or at least it was) haven't used SINE for a while now...).

Stability is THE most important thing to get right in my opinion and its something they are clearly struggling with.


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## becolossal (Dec 22, 2021)

I tell you, if this wasn’t a play to get me on board with Sine, I’d be all over it. I’ve eyeballed the Arks for a long time. Still kicking myself for not jumping when NI did their version of this sale (sans 5, obviously). I’d love these in Kontakt format because just reading about the Sine issues gets a hard pass from me. It’s why I passed on their Berlin sale last month as well, as much as I’d love those in my arsenal, too.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 22, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Good point.
> But it does not help, if the player isn't stable.
> I wonder, if this mainly an issue with logic. I don't hear these problems from Cubase or Studio One. Or am I wrong?
> I wonder, which systems Berklee students use/prefer.
> Shouldn't OT get responses of the use of Sine with BO from Berklee too?


I don’t just have problems in Logic. It’ll wreck VEP too.


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## filipjonathan (Dec 22, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> It is a crashtastic mess in cubase too (or at least it was) haven't used SINE for a while now...).
> 
> Stability is THE most important thing to get right in my opinion and its something they are clearly struggling with.


SINE works perfectly in Cubase for me. Although to be fair, I don't use it that often. But, when I do, it never crashes.


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## Fever Phoenix (Dec 22, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Good point.
> But it does not help, if the player isn't stable.
> I wonder, if this mainly an issue with logic. I don't hear these problems from Cubase or Studio One. Or am I wrong?
> I wonder, which systems Berklee students use/prefer.
> Shouldn't OT get responses of the use of Sine with BO from Berklee too?



I stayed away from Sine for a year because it kept crashing Cubase.

Since Tallinn the updated player works for me. But I still have no workflow with it. To be fair, that is also because I just don't spend much time with it.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 22, 2021)

It used to crash Cubase a lot - now it is better, though I don't use it nearly as much as other players (Kontakt, Spitfire, OPUS, Synchron - all of which are ROCK solid for me on Mac within Cubase). I think Logic has always been their nemesis and while it is better now than the early days of SINE (aka the first full year+ of it), it still isn't that stable in Logic.

Workflow-wise... Some good, tons of bad.


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## Rudianos (Dec 22, 2021)

I really like the deal of this bundle but I feel it might be a bit redundant with what I have. but surely there's five or six great instruments in this collection that I should not overlook. what are some favorites?


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## andyhy (Dec 22, 2021)

Thankfully I'm still finding SINE very stable with Reaper and a 4 core 32Gb ram Acer Nitro 5 laptop with all my OT libraries hosted on fast SSDs. I'm putting a massive amount of pressure on - by today's standards - relatively low spec hardware. To date SINE has given me no problems and I'm very focused on using it as an instrument to get the best performance with all the OT libraries. I wonder if other users with no SINE problems would like to comment or am I alone in this experience?


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## Soundbed (Dec 22, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> I really like the deal of this bundle but I feel it might be a bit redundant with what I have. but surely there's five or six great instruments in this collection that I should not overlook. what are some favorites?


I enjoyed the cello and horns patch and the mellow low brass, but some might nit pick the legato overlaps. 

Would be interesting to hear the cellos and horns back to back with Spitfire ARO cellos and horns, and Ark 5’s mellow brass back to back with CineBrass horns of the deep.

Mentioning these because I don’t have the others, only Ark5.


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## andyhy (Dec 22, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> I really like the deal of this bundle but I feel it might be a bit redundant with what I have. but surely there's five or six great instruments in this collection that I should not overlook. what are some favorites?


The combinations are what has convinced me that I should take the plunge. Another forum member, like me, already has the Berlin Main Series but still intends to add the Arks bundle. There is some overlap between the two series but I find the Ark multis and epicness of some very special. Whether one could recreate them with the Berlin Series on its own I doubt. It's simply not loud enough although BB in SINE is certainly much louder. There are a small number of instruments in the Arks that are absent from the Berlin Series. I can deal with the playing positioning differences. I just like the instant ability to score and then I could develop the initial ideas using other libraries. Teldex, which is common to both the Berlin Series and the Arks, is reported to mix easily with other libraries. I guess in part this is because the natural Teledex room reverb is not too wet. I admit I'm still discussing the Ark bundle purchase with my wife he he.


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## MartinH. (Dec 22, 2021)

I'm cross-quoting here from the other thread because my comment seemed too negative and speculative for the announcements subforum.



DarkestShadow said:


> When loading the trills of the MA4 mid strings I'm only finding a slider for chosing the different types.
> That's a step many years back! It's even standard in other libraries now to have them trigger via key-combos. That way it also gets really difficult to do lovely harmonizations with different trill types right on the keys.



Interesting. You'd think they'd take the opportunity to add features to Sine to at least reach feature parity when porting their old libs. Maybe they're hurting for cash or their hands were forced by investors, but I get the impression this rushed Sine port to complete the series has not been good for their reputation at all. 

It's a pity we can't get any representative polls here because disgruntled customers are always more likely to engage, but I really wonder what percentage of former Kontakt Ark owners genuinely think that the ported versions are better than the old ones. I know they must exist, but I've read even more unhappy posts than I expected.


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## Raphioli (Dec 22, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> I'm cross-quoting here from the other thread because my comment seemed too negative and speculative for the announcements subforum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I kind of expected the Trills Orchestrator to be removed.
It was removed from the Berlin main series too. And the runs builder as well.
They really should explicitly mention which features were removed for the SINE version on their website.
Users would notice something is missing eventually anyways, so not disclosing things like this would just make them lose trust, IMHO.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 22, 2021)

I just reported on another thread that the Ark 5 chord patch crashes Logic. Maybe I was a fool for buying it after having so much trouble with Berlin Mains. Thank god I didn't buy all of them.


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## jbuhler (Dec 22, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> It's a pity we can't get any representative polls here because disgruntled customers are always more likely to engage, but I really wonder what percentage of former Kontakt Ark owners genuinely think that the ported versions are better than the old ones. I know they must exist, but I've read even more unhappy posts than I expected.


I prefer the Sine versions for Arks 1 & 2, which I’ve been using since they came out. But I generally prefer the Sine versions to the Kontakt versions, even with Berlin Strings, because Sine fits my workflow better.


----------



## andyhy (Dec 22, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I prefer the Sine versions for Arks 1 & 2, which I’ve been using since they came out. But I generally prefer the Sine versions to the Kontakt versions, even with Berlin Strings, because Sine fits my workflow better.


That's good to hear. Clearly OT must diagnose what's causing Logic to crash.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 22, 2021)

andyhy said:


> That's good to hear. Clearly OT must diagnose what's causing Logic to crash.


I’m a Logic user and have had intermittent issues since Sine was introduced. I’ll go weeks without an issue and then a project with Sine instances will start hanging on start up. Once a project starts hanging on start up it will reliably hang every time. The work around is a pain but resolves the issue: open Logic; disable core audio; load project; disable all Sine tracks; reenable core audio; manually load Sine tracks. 

Once a project develops this issue there is no way I’ve found to resolve the issue and the workaround is the best solution I’ve found. I then create a group with all Sine tracks so I can easily select all Sine tracks to disable the tracks before closing the project. This allows me to skip the steps of disabling core audio since the project loads without the Sine libraries enabled. 

I haven’t yet had a chance to see if I have issues with the tempo syncing patches because I don’t currently have access to my studio.


----------



## andyhy (Dec 22, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I’m a Logic user and have had intermittent issues since Sine was introduced. I’ll go weeks without an issue and then a project with Sine instances will start hanging on start up. Once a project starts hanging on start up it will reliably hang every time. The work around is a pain but resolves the issue: open Logic; disable core audio; load project; disable all Sine tracks; reenable core audio; manually load Sine tracks.
> 
> Once a project develops this issue there is no way I’ve found to resolve the issue and the workaround is the best solution I’ve found. I then create a group with all Sine tracks so I can easily select all Sine tracks to disable the tracks before closing the project. This allows me to skip the steps of disabling core audio since the project loads without the Sine libraries enabled.
> 
> I haven’t yet had a chance to see if I have issues with the tempo syncing patches because I don’t currently have access to my studio.


I hope OT support are reading your comments because your detailed explanation must help them zero in on the code conflict that's generating this start up problem. Chris Siu who is also a Logic users has reported SINE crashing several times even once it's loaded samples. It would be good to see a comment from OT when they've diagnosed the cause and maybe a short term workaround Logic users can adopt while they're waiting for a SINE update fix.


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## savagedog (Dec 23, 2021)

andyhy said:


> That's good to hear. Clearly OT must diagnose what's causing Logic to crash.


did you update sine to the latest version? 1.0.8? Heard of people after the update logic does not crash anymore.


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## andyhy (Dec 23, 2021)

savagedog said:


> did you update sine to the latest version? 1.0.8? Heard of people after the update logic does not crash anymore.





savagedog said:


> did you update sine to the latest version? 1.0.8? Heard of people after the update logic does not crash anymore.


Good question. I'm still on 1.07 so I better update if there's a 1.08. Now updated to 1.08.


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## savagedog (Dec 23, 2021)

andyhy said:


> Good question. I'm still on 1.07 so I better update if there's a 1.08. Now updated to 1.08.


Let us know if it has gotten better


----------



## David Kudell (Dec 23, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> It is a crashtastic mess in cubase too (or at least it was) haven't used SINE for a while now...).
> 
> Stability is THE most important thing to get right in my opinion and its something they are clearly struggling with.


That hasn’t been my experience. I’ve just worked on 3 film scores with it using lots of Sine instruments and it didn’t crash once. 30-40 cues around an hour of music. I use JXL brass on everything. I am on MacOS and Cubase. Yes 1.0 in 2019 was buggy but it’s solid now for me. There are definitely things I’d like added (proper purging) and I believe they will in the future. There was a lot that had to be added first just to port all those libraries over.


----------



## Eptesicus (Dec 23, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> That hasn’t been my experience. I’ve just worked on 3 film scores with it using lots of Sine instruments and it didn’t crash once. 30-40 cues around an hour of music. I use JXL brass on everything. I am on MacOS and Cubase. Yes 1.0 in 2019 was buggy but it’s solid now for me. There are definitely things I’d like added (proper purging) and I believe they will in the future. There was a lot that had to be added first just to port all those libraries over.



From what I recall I think the main issues were cubase and Windows and how SINE loaded and unloaded stuff into RAM. It did get better, but was still a little dodgy and I had to unload all SINE instruments before closing the project or it would never close.

I do need to try the very latest update, so maybe that has fixed most things now.


----------



## Breaker (Dec 23, 2021)

Well I'll be sodomized on Christmas!
The Ark 4 choir shorts RR-bug is now fixed and update is online.


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## tim727 (Dec 23, 2021)

Breaker said:


> Well I'll be sodomized on Christmas!
> The Ark 4 choir shorts RR-bug is now fixed and update is online.


Wait is it really or was this a joke? If it's true then this is very "un-OT" like.


----------



## Breaker (Dec 23, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Wait is it really or was this a joke? If it's true then this is very "un-OT" like.


Yes, got reply from Tobias and I already tested the update.
As much as I don't like SINE, I have to admit that for releasing small updates it beats Kontakt hands down.

And now Ark 4 is the first SINE library I have that is actually better than the Kontakt version.


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## Evans (Dec 23, 2021)

SINE in Cubase used to be so bad for me that I _had_ to run it in vepro. It would freeze with almost every action.

Now, I haven't had a freeze in several months, even without vepro.


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## synthnut1 (Dec 23, 2021)

I’m technically challenged as it is...... I wanted ark 1 for the longest time but stayed away from it with all the problems from the SINE player.... I wonder why these developers that are trying to develop their own players don’t just offer both players until they get all the bugs straightened out with their own player.... I’m sure they must be losing a lot of business from people like me that would purchase their programs if they were ported in Kontakt....Is the work or the return $ wise that bad on developers when they port to Kontakt ?


----------



## Jax (Dec 23, 2021)

synthnut1 said:


> Is the work or the return $ wise that bad on developers when they port to Kontakt ?


Post in thread 'What kind of money does Kontakt Player cost developers?'
https://vi-control.net/community/th...kt-player-cost-developers.112976/post-4890303


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## Evans (Dec 23, 2021)

synthnut1 said:


> I wanted ark 1 for the longest time but stayed away from it with all the problems from the SINE player


Have you tried anything on SINE to see how it behaves on your system? OT has a free patch to test out (Layers, I think).


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## Casiquire (Dec 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> Have you tried anything on SINE to see how it behaves on your system? OT has a free patch to test out (Layers, I think).


And SINE Factory 😁


----------



## Evans (Dec 23, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> And SINE Factory 😁


Oh, ha. What year is it, again?


----------



## Eptesicus (Dec 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> SINE in Cubase used to be so bad for me that I _had_ to run it in vepro. It would freeze with almost every action.
> 
> Now, I haven't had a freeze in several months, even without vepro.



This is encouraging. Same as you it used to be immensely unstable.

Going to give the latest version a go.


----------



## synthnut1 (Dec 23, 2021)

Evans said:


> Have you tried anything on SINE to see how it behaves on your system? OT has a free patch to test out (Layers, I think).


Actually I’ve been reading other folks reports only.....In all fairness, I should give it a run myself....Thanks...I’ll grit my teeth and give it a go


----------



## Marsen (Dec 23, 2021)

David Kudell said:


> That hasn’t been my experience. I’ve just worked on 3 film scores with it using lots of Sine instruments and it didn’t crash once. 30-40 cues around an hour of music. I use JXL brass on everything. I am on MacOS and Cubase. Yes 1.0 in 2019 was buggy but it’s solid now for me. There are definitely things I’d like added (proper purging) and I believe they will in the future. There was a lot that had to be added first just to port all those libraries over.





Evans said:


> SINE in Cubase used to be so bad for me that I _had_ to run it in vepro. It would freeze with almost every action.
> 
> Now, I haven't had a freeze in several months, even without vepro.


Good to hear, that it works for you both stable in Cubase.

So I wasn't that wrong, that Sine seems to make problems always in Logic.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Dec 23, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Good to hear, that it works for you both stable in Cubase.
> 
> So I wasn't that wrong, that Sine seems to make problems always in Logic.


I haven't done any extensive testing, but this morning I opened up Cubase 10, and the patches that crashed Logic seem stable. However, the chords patch in Ark 5 just stopped working after a bit. Oddly, all the other articulations in the patch continue to work. It is like chords patch just unloaded or something, and if I create a new track and load the same patch, I still don't have the chords articulation. It is very strange, so while things may be better on the Mac with Cubase, all is not well.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 23, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I haven't done any extensive testing, but this morning I opened up Cubase 10, and the patches that crashed Logic seem stable. However, the chords patch in Ark 5 just stopped working after a bit. Oddly, all the other articulations in the patch continue to work. It is like chords patch just unloaded or something, and if I create a new track and load the same patch, I still don't have the chords articulation. It is very strange, so while things may be better on the Mac with Cubase, all is not well.


So if i understand correctly, you have both, Logic and Cubase, and Logic crashes, Cubase not, but with some other strange behaviour?


----------



## AllanH (Dec 23, 2021)

Regarding Sine vs Kontakt: I have found a few odd differences for MA1 and as the recent update of Sine is the first one the works for me, I though I'd share and see if anyone else has seen the similar changes

MA1 01 Finkenstein High Strings
* Kontakt: There is legato available for Unison sustain
* Sine: The "Leg" button does nothing for Unison sustain, i.e. no legato

MA 1 06 Schwartzdorn Horns a9
* Kontakt: both microphones are on at 0 db
* Sine: by default, the close mic is off. [easily fixed, of course, but still noteworthy]

Q: Has anyone else seen the similar difference or is my Sine instrument install somehow corrupted?


----------



## Jett Hitt (Dec 23, 2021)

Marsen said:


> So if i understand correctly, you have both, Logic and Cubase, and Logic crashes, Cubase not, but with some other strange behaviour?


Yeah mostly. VEP crashes too, so it’s not just Logic.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 23, 2021)

AllanH said:


> Q: Has anyone else seen the similar difference or is my Sine instrument install somehow corrupted?


From the experience of this thread, you're Sine installation seems to be perfectly fine .


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 23, 2021)

Is there a way to adjust the lag/responsiveness in Sine? Because even with the attack all the way down, there is some noticeable lag that makes it feel somewhat sluggish. My daw buffer is pretty low, btw.


----------



## dhmusic (Dec 23, 2021)

AllanH said:


> MA1 01 Finkenstein High Strings
> * Kontakt: There is legato available for Unison sustain
> * Sine: The "Leg" button does nothing for Unison sustain, i.e. no legato


There are no Unison Legatos in Ark 1's High Strings. Unlike capsule, you can't add legato/mono to every patch. That button should be disabled.


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## Peter Satera (Dec 23, 2021)

dhmusic said:


> There are no Unison Legatos in Ark 1's High Strings. Unlike capsule, you can't add legato/mono to every patch. That button should be disabled.


I tried this yesterday, and couldnt get Ark 1 kontakt nor Sine to play the high string unison in mono/ legato.


----------



## AllanH (Dec 23, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I tried this yesterday, and couldnt get Ark 1 kontakt nor Sine to play the high string unison in mono/ legato.


Default of the unison patch is polyphonic - you have to turn the legato on. Please see the screenshot.

ADDED: the unison legato is actually quite nice.


----------



## dhmusic (Dec 23, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> I tried this yesterday, and couldnt get Ark 1 kontakt nor Sine to play the high string unison in mono/ legato.


Not sure where there's confusion. You can force legato/mono in the kontakt multi the same way as on all the others. If you want to force the 8va legato on the Unison patch you can click the wrench icon and assign it there.


AllanH said:


> Default of the unison patch is polyphonic - you have to turn the legato on. Please see the screenshot.
> 
> ADDED: the unison legato is actually quite nice.


If you like the upper voice unnaturally disappearing, I guess. "Frankenstein Legato" has a nice ring to it if you wanted to rename the patch.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 23, 2021)

Wow. Sine loves to crash Cubase. Totally unreliable.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 23, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Wow. Sine loves to crash Cubase. Totally unreliable.


So you're on Cubase and experience same problems as Logic Users with Sine?


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 23, 2021)

Marsen said:


> So you're on Cubase and experience same problems as Logic Users with Sine?


If Logic users are experiencing random crashes? Then yes.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Dec 23, 2021)

it might crash frequently, but they open the doors to new realms of sound like the major 4th


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## Marsen (Dec 23, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> If Logic users are experiencing random crashes? Then yes.


They do ( including me), yes.


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## Marsen (Dec 23, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> If Logic users are experiencing random crashes? Then yes.


One thing: 
Do you experience crashes on just the ported (from kontakt) versions, or Ark 5 too?


----------



## Evans (Dec 23, 2021)

Which version of Cubase?


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 23, 2021)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> it might crash frequently, but they open the doors to new realms of sound like the major 4th


That's the happy-sounding one


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## Mike Fox (Dec 23, 2021)

Marsen said:


> One thing:
> Do you experience crashes on just the ported (from kontakt) versions, or Ark 5 too?


I’ve only downloaded Ark 4, so I can’t speak for the other volumes (which I’m hesitant to download).


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## sheen (Dec 23, 2021)

Maj 4th?...my 550 cents....it must be half of the punch line to the old violist joke ...."well, one of them tucks up the frills...."


----------



## Peter Satera (Dec 23, 2021)

AllanH said:


> Default of the unison patch is polyphonic - you have to turn the legato on. Please see the screenshot.
> 
> ADDED: the unison legato is actually quite nice.


Thanks, it does mean i need to use the multipatch, which is what I overlooked.



dhmusic said:


> Not sure where there's confusion. You can force legato/mono in the kontakt multi the same way as on all the others. If you want to force the 8va legato on the Unison patch you can click the wrench icon and assign it there.


The confusion is that I was using the stand alone. There's nothing to switch on Legato on the unison, when it's only the articulation.


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## andyhy (Dec 23, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Wow. Sine loves to crash Cubase. Totally unreliable.


Not the impression I'm getting from major Cubase/SINE users like scorewriter David Kudell who commenting on reports of SINE crashing posted:

"That hasn’t been my experience. I’ve just worked on 3 film scores with it using lots of Sine instruments and it didn’t crash once. 30-40 cues around an hour of music. I use JXL brass on everything. I am on MacOS and Cubase. Yes 1.0 in 2019 was buggy but it’s solid now for me. There are definitely things I’d like added (proper purging) and I believe they will in the future. There was a lot that had to be added first just to port all those libraries over."

I hope David won't mind me quoting what he posted.

I think we need to be careful about what we say on this forum. If there are bugs in SINE libraries they should be reported directly to OT Support with full details, not debated at length here. Posting them here won't get them fixed. Like David I find SINE very stable. I use Reaper which in the early of SINE did generate a few problems all which were referred to OT Support. I find SINE very stable and regularly update it, currently 1.08. I don't post problems with any library here. I raise them by email directly with the support team concerned and in my experience OT Support has been the most responsive of all.


----------



## andyhy (Dec 23, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I hear what you’re saying but describing problems with a library means people can make a more informed buying decision, as they know both the pros and cons of whatever library they’re considering. And let’s face it, bugs are not always fixed as quicky as one could wish as a customer - and some bugs end up never getting fixed. Therefore it’s important to know the exact current status of what works and what doesn’t in a library, as you may have to live with (some / all of) the bugs.


Imho it serves no purpose whatsoever posting problems here which could well be down to either the user's own hardware setup or the way they use a library and nothing to do with the library itself. That simply misleads potential buyers. Better to email OT support directly with the details of what happened and what you were trying to do at the time. If it's functionality you want added sure, this is the right place to raise that subject, similarly sample comparison, but bugs of any kind including crashes must be reported by email directly to OT. I know they review everything reported here but without full details including project files etc there is little they can do. There have even been some occasions where people have reported bugs here without even having owned and installed the libraries. That surely is unacceptable.


----------



## Mike Fox (Dec 23, 2021)

andyhy said:


> Not the impression I'm getting from major Cubase/SINE users like scorewriter David Kudell who commenting on reports of SINE crashing posted:
> 
> "That hasn’t been my experience. I’ve just worked on 3 film scores with it using lots of Sine instruments and it didn’t crash once. 30-40 cues around an hour of music. I use JXL brass on everything. I am on MacOS and Cubase. Yes 1.0 in 2019 was buggy but it’s solid now for me. There are definitely things I’d like added (proper purging) and I believe they will in the future. There was a lot that had to be added first just to port all those libraries over."
> 
> ...


One aspect I love about VI-C is that it offers musicians the opportunity to discuss sample libraries, for better or for worse. This type of camaraderie is a big part of what gives VI-C it's value!

For example, have you read the main OPUS thread in Sample Talk? A good chunk of that thread is nothing but users reporting issues, and people offering helpful solutions to said issues. Sometimes it’s user error, and sometimes it isn’t, but either way it’s musicians helping musicians. 

So while there's nothing wrong with reporting bugs to the developer, it can actually be much more efficient to get things resolved on this forum instead (it's been two days since I reported my most recent issue to OT and have yet to receive a response, btw). I'm even willing to bet that some developers actually appreciate users helping other users, because it means less e-mails and troubleshooting on their end.

And as far as people being mislead by user reports, the same can be true for information concealment. If there is a major bug in a sample library, and we are forbidden to discuss it here, then you are now withholding important information that could help a potential customer with their buying decision. Not to mention that a lot of developers do NOT mention bugs or issues with their libraries, even if the developer is fully aware of them. Was there any mention of the choir bug in Ark 4 in the official walkthrough? Nope. And if there was, I may not have bought the library to begin with.

So you see, it can work both ways. Nothing but positivity creates a facade, and I admire the idea of people being smart enough to do their own research, and come to their own conclusions, regardless of what he said, she said.

Finally, It's not against forum policy for members to report personal experiences with sample libraries, and unless someone is deliberately attacking a library or developer for the sake of being an asshole, people have every right to report their findings.


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 24, 2021)

Well, got the Ark Bundle after playing around with Mid Strings from 4. Think there is a lot of potential musicality for 999 Euro. 200 instruments in Teldex. $6 a patch, no brainer. Came to $1200ish via PayPal USD. Knew it would not take long to convince me LOL. Have to do Hard Drive assessment. I have had a few issues with SINE - but the crashing is remedied for me by rescanning the libraries. Not an ongoing issue. The compression is phenom. And appears the engine is getting better at a steady clip.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 24, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> but the crashing is remedied for me by rescanning the libraries.


What you mean by that? Rescanning libraries in Sine?


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 24, 2021)

Marsen said:


> What you mean by that? Rescanning libraries in Sine?


in library tab ... + collection ... select content folder in orchestral tools folder and there you go. Cleaned up alot of my trouble


----------



## easyrider (Dec 24, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> Well, got the Ark Bundle after playing around with Mid Strings from 4. Think there is a lot of potential musicality for 999 Euro. 200 instruments in Teldex. $6 a patch, no brainer. Came to $1200ish via PayPal USD. Knew it would not take long to convince me LOL. Have to do Hard Drive assessment. I have had a few issues with SINE - but the crashing is remedied for me by rescanning the libraries. Not an ongoing issue. The compression is phenom. And appears the engine is getting better at a steady clip.


This doesn’t help me……lol….


----------



## NekujaK (Dec 24, 2021)

A few years back, a friend of mine achieved his lifelong dream of owning a Porsche 911. Aside from the exhilirating speed, he said one of the first things he noticed was the dashboard layout made absolutely no sense, especially when compared to the well thought out UIs of Japanese cars. He said none of the controls are where you expect them to be, and he's constantly having to remind himself how to perform the most basic tasks in the car.

That's pretty much how I feel about SINE - an elite audio engine from a premium library developer, with a poorly concieved UI that significantly inhibits workflow.

I could probably say the same about the Spitfire player. However, there is at least a transparent simplicity to the Spitfire UI, that while excessively favoring form over function, has some discernable logic to it. I find the SINE player to be an unwieldy mess that has pretty much turned me off to all new OT libraries.

Sorry, don't mean to be a Grinch - just had to get that off my chest after following this thread all week. Happy Holidays!


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 24, 2021)

NekujaK said:


> A few years back, a friend of mine achieved his lifelong dream of owning a Porsche 911. Aside from the exhilirating speed, he said one of the first things he noticed was the dashboard layout made absolutely no sense, especially when compared to the well thought out UIs of Japanese cars. He said none of the controls are where you expect them to be, and he's constantly having to remind himself how to perform the most basic tasks in the car.
> 
> That's pretty much how I feel about SINE - an elite audio engine from a premium library developer, with a poorly concieved UI that significantly inhibits workflow.
> 
> ...


Maybe they did what Spitfire did and didn’t hire a UI dev but got their full stack dev to do the UI work as well. Yes, everyone knows UI, but hiring a UXUI person where theyve spent years researching is a lot better


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 24, 2021)

NekujaK said:


> That's pretty much how I feel about SINE - an elite audio engine from a premium library developer, with a poorly concieved UI that significantly inhibits workflow.


I get what you are saying but there are a lot more problems beyond the UI, and it's hardly elite. Aside from mic merge it's bare bones, It doesn't even have a proper purge system. Sine nothing like a Porsche and more like a Reliant Robin.






I think I like using the Sine UI more than the Spitfire Player's UI, but the Spitfire Player feels more solid than Sine. Both are crap compared to VSL's Synchron Player. No idea about Opus. I suspect it's not as good as Synchron Player but miles better than Sine/SF.

I am not a OT or Sine basher, I bought BS and BSS recently and love those, and not looking to ignite a holy war haha (or reignite).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 24, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Maybe they did what Spitfire did and didn’t hire a UI dev but got their full stack dev to do the UI work as well. Yes, everyone knows UI, but hiring a UXUI person where theyve spent years researching is a lot better


Are you alleging this is what Spitfire did based on inside knowledge?


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Are you alleging this is what Spitfire did based on inside knowledge?


Spitfire Player UI was designed by https://www.ustwo.com/

It's all over the Spitfire pages:

"With a beautiful, modern design by ustwo (Monument Valley, DICE), BBC Symphony Orchestra is housed in our award-winning standalone plugin (VST2, VST3, AU, AAX & NKS ready) developed primarily for composers, by composers — easy to use, intuitive and inspiring."


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 24, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> Spitfire Player UI was designed by https://www.ustwo.com/
> 
> It's all over the Spitfire pages:
> 
> "With a beautiful, modern design by ustwo (Monument Valley, DICE), BBC Symphony Orchestra is housed in our award-winning standalone plugin (VST2, VST3, AU, AAX & NKS ready) developed primarily for composers, by composers — easy to use, intuitive and inspiring."


Design and development are two different functions. The other poster insinuated that Spitfire didn’t use a UI designer or a UI developer for their player so just calling out that is patently false.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Design and development are two different functions.


@NekujaK posted regarding the design (mostly), do you think it's a great design with poor implementation? I guess I don't follow what your point is.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 24, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> @NekujaK posted regarding the design, do you think it's a great design with poor implementation? I guess I don't follow what your point is.


I was not quoting them - see my original post.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I was not quoting them - see my original post.


Just ignore my post then


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 24, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Are you alleging this is what Spitfire did based on inside knowledge?


Didnt mean to trigger you, this is just based on my own and this forum’s frustration on their limited controls and extra unnecessary clicks with their UI. But I guess lean development is the fad these days.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 24, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Didnt mean to trigger you, this is just based on my own and this forum’s frustration on their limited controls and extra unnecessary clicks with their UI. But I guess lean development is the fad these days.


Wasn’t triggered - just wanted to correct false assumptions. Everybody’s a UI designer it seems…and that’s how we get the SINE player.


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## galactic orange (Dec 24, 2021)

Zanshin said:


> DICE


DICE huh. If they made the interface more like the Battlefield HUD then I’d feel more comfortable with it. Can I use a PS4 controller to modulate vibrato among other things? I’ll be we have some virtuosos in our midst.

On a more serious note, does anyone know what the soundtrack for BF1 was made with? I suspect Spitfire libraries, but could be live recordings? Looking at picking up Ark 5 and I think SINE player could use some game designer input. Am I right?


----------



## dhlkid (Dec 24, 2021)

Is Ark 5 worth to get?
I think the SINE player isn't solid enough


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## Zanshin (Dec 24, 2021)

dhlkid said:


> Is Ark 5 worth to get?
> I think the SINE player isn't solid enough


If the Sine player is stable on your system, Ark 5 is pretty cool 

The @BenBotkin playthrough convinced me:





__





Metropolis Ark 5 - Review/Playthrough (fast legato runs patches!)


Hey everyone! I just launched a review/walkthrough of the brand new Metropolis Ark 5. I start out by playing through the demo I wrote for the library, "On Top of the World", which is very focused on the sustains and chordal elements, but for most of the (long!) video I just play with patches...




vi-control.net


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## muziksculp (Dec 24, 2021)

dhlkid said:


> Is Ark 5 worth to get?
> I think the SINE player isn't solid enough


The SINE Player has been very solid for me, never crashed my DAW. 

Always works as it should, no issue. I'm sure OT will keep improving it, and also the libraries it runs. 

I'm not sure what all the negativity is about SINE, yes, it's not perfect, but it's not broken either.


----------



## Vlzmusic (Dec 24, 2021)

dhlkid said:


> Is Ark 5 worth to get?
> I think the SINE player isn't solid enough


I think it gets the job done. As for Ark5 itself, I don't know how to talk myself out of it  Also because tons of material for the intro price, and also I like the fact that the orchestra is so woody , and natural sounding.

I don't care for the marketing, trailer/epic/massive or not, it sounds right, like a good, thick, post romantic, 20th century orchestra should sound.


----------



## galactic orange (Dec 24, 2021)

The SINE player is solid on my system. It’s just little things like mid-download if I click on an “X” to cancel a single instrument download it is non-reponsive so I don’t know if the action had its intended effect. I have to wait until all downloads are complete to find out what the ultimate result of my cancel action was. Also, it takes about 8 seconds after clicking on my licenses for the screen to load. Wish that was much faster, obviously.


----------



## FrozenIcicle (Dec 25, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Btw. the music the composers made with sample libraries for Battlefield 1 prior to recording with a real orchestra is on Youtube:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you know which samples?


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 25, 2021)

dhlkid said:


> Is Ark 5 worth to get?
> I think the SINE player isn't solid enough


I think so. So far I find myself drawn to Ark 4 and 5 the most.

BTW downloading Ark 1-5 over 300 GB took 12 hours. Versus Berlin Mains 350ish over 5 nights. Improvements.


----------



## becolossal (Dec 25, 2021)

FrozenIcicle said:


> Do you know which samples?


Literally posted on the previous page.


----------



## Marsen (Dec 25, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> in library tab ... + collection ... select content folder in orchestral tools folder and there you go. Cleaned up alot of my trouble


Thank you,
wasn't aware of this function.


----------



## Casiquire (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> The SINE Player has been very solid for me, never crashed my DAW.
> 
> Always works as it should, no issue. I'm sure OT will keep improving it, and also the libraries it runs.
> 
> I'm not sure what all the negativity is about SINE, yes, it's not perfect, but it's not broken either.


It depends on the system. I don't experience a lot of issues with it either, but i understand that it's much worse on some other systems. That's a big part of the negativity


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 25, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> It depends on the system. I don't experience a lot of issues with it either, but i understand that it's much worse on some other systems. That's a big part of the negativity


Yes, and anyone who does experience issues with Sine has a right to feel a bit miffed. But overall I continue to find working with Sine an improvement over working with Capsule, so I choose Sine when I have the option, even though Sine hasn’t been trouble free for me.


----------



## Igorianych (Dec 25, 2021)

if someone from the developers reads this thread, make it possible to switch windows with hotkeys or tabs in Sine - Library, Performance, Mixer, Options


----------



## Germain B (Dec 25, 2021)

Igorianych said:


> if someone from the developers reads this thread, make it possible to switch windows with hotkeys or tabs in Sine - Library, Performance, Mixer, Options


Yes, and make Sine remember where you were before. Closing and re-opening always puts you back in the library tab...


----------



## Marsen (Dec 25, 2021)

And let the virtual keyboard stay in every tab, not disappear. 
And show kb with colors for normal & stretched range.
And make this modwheel visible.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

Hi,

I'm trying to install OT : MA 5 , SINE Standalone launches, but is not responsive, it times out, and I just have to quit it. I wonder if this is related to their servers ?

Anyone able to connect to their Licenses in SINE standalone .

I will try again tomorrow, this has never happened before. Very odd.

Thanks.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

SINE Standalone is not responsive Problem. What could be causing this ?


----------



## AllanH (Dec 25, 2021)

@muziksculp - Sine used to hang on me all the time in a manner similar to your screenshot. That was version 1.0.5 and earlier. After upgrading to 1.0.8 Sine finally became functional and I can now click from tab to tab without it hanging. My only real suggestion is to make sure you have the latest sine installed. For me, it has also worked without incident in Cubase 11 pro. 

I have been able to run MA1 and MA2 and single instrument from MA5 without any crashes or hangs. I'm hoping it's finally stable for me, as the sine UI is easy to understand and seems reasonably flexible.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

AllanH said:


> @muziksculp - Sine used to hang on me all the time in a manner similar to your screenshot. That was version 1.0.5 and earlier. After upgrading to 1.0.8 Sine finally became functional and I can now click from tab to tab without it hanging. My only real suggestion is to make sure you have the latest sine installed. For me, it has also worked without incident in Cubase 11 pro.
> 
> I have been able to run MA1 and MA2 and single instrument from MA5 without any crashes or hangs. I'm hoping it's finally stable for me, as the sine UI is easy to understand and seems reasonably flexible.


I'm using SINE 1.0.8 , but as soon as I launch the standalone version it freezes, and I get a message that program is not responding. and have to close the program via Windows.

I never had this issue, I also checked my internet connection just in case it is something from my side, but that's not it.

I was trying to Install MA3, MA4, and MA5, I started with MA3, it looks like it downloaded some files, but then froze, MA 3 shows up in my SINE browser, but I can't complete the downloads, and I keep getting an error message. Then SINE freezes. Quite frustrating. 

I can't even seem to delete MA3 because SINE freezes, and doesn't allow me to do anything after it launches.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm not sure what all the negativity is about SINE, yes, it's not perfect, but it's not broken either.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

Zanshin said:


>


I knew that was coming


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I knew that was coming








EDIT:
(Hope you figure it out @muziksculp, I take no pleasure, for real)


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

Basically, I can't use SINE at this point, it crashes my DAW, and It is broken when I launch the Standalone version to install a library, WTF.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

And to top all this, OT support are not expected to resume work until after Jan. 3rd, and there might be hundreds of support tickets they need to sort out by then. This is BAD.


----------



## Zanshin (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> And to top all this, OT support are not expected to resume work until after Jan. 3rd, and there might be hundreds of support tickets they need to sort out by then. This is BAD.


Works fine for me.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Basically, I can't use SINE at this point, it crashes my DAW, and It is broken when I launch the Standalone version to install a library, WTF.


Yep, I am there too. Berlin Mains, BSS, and Ark 5 all not working for me.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 25, 2021)

What sort of company launches a major product release…and then takes off for two weeks? They really have trouble thinking through things, don’t they.


----------



## Raphioli (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I knew that was coming


Well at least now you know why some people are negative about the SINE player, 
now that you've experienced it your self.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 25, 2021)

I've rebuilt most of the Kontakt multis for Ark 3 in Sine, and most of it is straightforward. The only real difficulty is the percussion is mapped differently, and I'm not sure how to recreate a couple of the patches such as "Low Drum Ensemble Accent" in Sine. I found the percussion laggy in Sine compared to Kontakt as well. For the morphing patches, I used Polymap, with dynamics set to the modwheel and morphing set to CC32. Beware that it's really easy to break the functionality of the polymap. I didn't bother with multi 20 or 21, since they are only percussion. Preset 3A uses Inspire 1, so don't load that unless you have Inspire.

The multis are saved as Sine presets. I made a Sine folder. On Mac you install the unzipped folder under User>Shared>Sine. Then you load them from Sine here:


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

View attachment SINE Player Standalone Problem.mp4


----------



## Robo Rivard (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> View attachment SINE Player Standalone Problem.mp4


There is a new version of SINE on the OT website.

I just bought ARK 5, and the asked me to download the last version of SINE first.


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm using SINE 1.0.8 , but as soon as I launch the standalone version it freezes, and I get a message that program is not responding. and have to close the program via Windows.
> 
> I never had this issue, I also checked my internet connection just in case it is something from my side, but that's not it.
> 
> ...


Wow your download crashed at a very unfortunate time. Ok, experiment time. I've spent some time screwing around with my SINE downloads trying to break some of the free libraries.

I overrid the the metadata zip file while it was downloading, and when it tried to unpack and move it it just threw me that an "invalid" error and seems to have just cancelled the download entirely.

Will it work for you? Who knows but maybe worth a shot?

First close SINE.

1. Navigate to the SINE player download folder. (The filepath is shown in that error message, so Orchestral Tools\SINE Player\Download)

Inside the 1433 folder you will find the tree folder.

2. Create a zip file named "metadata.zip" and/or "samples.zip" inside the tree folder depending on which you're missing. The contents of what's inside can be whatever. I just zipped a text file.

3. Now when SINE tries to move / unpack that folder it should throw an error stating that no otmeta file was found. This seemed to just cancel the download entirely, which should solve your crashing issue?






No clue if this will work for you since I couldn't emulate the exact situation you were in.
Looking at your later video it seems that multiple instruments are broken, so I suppose you can just try it out for the first one. If that works just keep doing it until all of them are resolved?


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I knew that was coming


I'm going to keep yelling at Sine in the hope that that keeps it working for me. Ark 3 downloaded for me using 1.0.7. I initially only downloaded the default mics.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> Wow your download crashed at a very unfortunate time. Ok, experiment time. I've spent some time screwing around with my SINE downloads trying to break some of the free libraries.
> 
> I overrid the the metadata zip file while it was downloading, and when it tried to unpack and move it it just threw me that an "invalid" error and seems to have just cancelled the download entirely.
> 
> ...


Hi @Getsumen ,

Thanks for the tip. I didn't need to use it.

So here is an update on this problem, with repeatedly closing, then relaunching SINE Standalone, I was finally able to delete MA3 from the SINE library by pressing the Settings button next to MA3, which wouldn't work previously, that shows how unreliable, and funky this version is. Actually I never had any issues with SINE prior to ver 1.0.8, not sure what's the problem.

But successfully deleting MA3 from SINE seems to have fixed this issue, I can add a SINE instance in my DAW (Studio One Pro 5), and it will not crash., and SINE Standalone works fine now.

I'm actually suspecting that this issue is a bug in *Metropolis Ark 3*, I still have to install MA 4, MA 5, but I won't bother until OT Support is back to their desks, and ready to help. At this point, I'm going to wait, I think it is the safest, and wise thing to do. At least I can access my SINE libraries in my DAW, and all seems to work fine.

I wonder if there are any other users reporting this issue, or other issues with MA3 ?

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Getsumen (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Getsumen ,
> 
> Thanks for the tip. I didn't need to use it.
> 
> ...


Glad to know you got it fixed! I assume the issue is library-independent. What seems to have happened as that SINE downloaded the zip files for an instrument, unpacked them, then crashed / froze along the way. 

Upon restart, it tried to unpack the files, which were already unpacked and thus no longer in that folder.

SINE freezing during a critical part of the download /unpacking process is probably the root culprit. I'm not sure if the freezing is something that exclusively happens for MA3 however.

Definitely, a big design flaw on their part to have the player entirely stop working when a download fails / bugs out.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I'm going to keep yelling at Sine in the hope that that keeps it working for me. Ark 3 downloaded for me using 1.0.7. I initially only downloaded the default mics.


Downloading only the default mics is odd, again, I think the issue is with MA3, and not with SINE, because SINE 1.0.8 is working fine as long as MA3 is not showing up in the library. It could also be a conflict of some sorts between 1.0.8 and MA3, I can downgrade to 1.0.7 since I have the installer, but I think the best thing to do is wait for OT support to return to their work, and see if they can sort this out.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Downloading only the default mics is odd, again, I think the issue is with MA3, and not with SINE, because SINE 1.0.8 is working fine as long as MA3 is not showing up in the library. It could also be a conflict of some sorts between 1.0.8 and MA3, I can downgrade to 1.0.7 since I have the installer, but I think the best thing to do is wait for OT support to return to their work, and see if they can sort this out.


I usually download the default mics (Basic Kit) to start and then download the others later when it's convenient. I'm about half way through the process with Ark 3. 

Glad it worked out for you!


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I usually download the default mics (Basic Kit) to start and then download the others later when it's convenient. I'm about half way through the process with Ark 3.
> 
> Glad it worked out for you!


Hopefully all goes well with your MA3 Installation.

As I posted above, I would rather wait for OT support before I install MA3, and I won't bother with installing MA4, and MA5, since I don't want to deal with this issue again, because fixing it is like playing roulette.


----------



## jbuhler (Dec 25, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hopefully all goes well with MA3 Installation.
> 
> As I posted above, I would rather wait for OT support before I install MA3, and I won't bother with installing MA4, and MA5, since I don't want to deal with this issue again, because fixing it is like playing roulette.


Yeah, it's a design problem, having the downloader and store part of the plug-in you need to get the instruments to play, because if any part of it breaks the program you are out of luck. It's one reason I dislike the kind of integration OT is trying with Sine, especially if they are going to put the whole company on holiday.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 25, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Yeah, it's a design problem, having the downloader and store part of the plug-in you need to get the instruments to play, because if any part of it breaks the program you are out of luck. It's one reason I dislike the kind of integration OT is trying with Sine, especially if they are going to put the whole company on holiday.


This was part of the automated tech-support ticket reply I got from OT 

*Quote :* "_Hello there,

Thank you very much for contacting Orchestral Tools!

Orchestral Tools is closed for the Christmas Holidays from December 24, 2021 to January 09, 2022.
OT Support will be at greatly reduced capacity, so please allow some time for replies. Offices will slowly return to fully staffed from January 03, 2022. "_


----------



## Igorianych (Dec 25, 2021)

Germain B said:


> Yes, and make Sine remember where you were before. Closing and re-opening always puts you back in the library tab...


By the way, yessssssss!


----------



## AndyP (Dec 26, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What sort of company launches a major product release…and then takes off for two weeks? They really have trouble thinking through things, don’t they.


The end of the support era, maybe? 😅


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> This was part of the automated tech-support ticket reply I got from OT
> 
> *Quote :* "_Hello there,
> 
> ...


sorry about your troubles - hope they fix for you. Would a fresh SINE reinstall and just keep your library files help? Rescan them later.

They hopefully get to you soon. Got that mssg and a response a few moments later on Friday of all days.


----------



## AllanH (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> ...



I had a similar problem a while ago with a different product. I had a drive connected over USB but formatted as FAT32/xFAT (sometimes the default). Somehow my installer ran into permission problems with the FAT32/EXFAT drive. A reformat with NTFS completely resolved the permission issue.

So if your J: is a drive connected over USB a suggestion would be to make sure it's NTFS.

This is all I can think of. I hope you get it working!


----------



## tc9000 (Dec 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I've rebuilt most of the Kontakt multis for Ark 3 in Sine, and most of it is straightforward. The only real difficulty is the percussion is mapped differently, and I'm not sure how to recreate a couple of the patches such as "Low Drum Ensemble Accent" in Sine. I found the percussion laggy in Sine compared to Kontakt as well. For the morphing patches, I used Polymap, with dynamics set to the modwheel and morphing set to CC32. Beware that it's really easy to break the functionality of the polymap. I didn't bother with multi 20 or 21, since they are only percussion. Preset 3A uses Inspire 1, so don't load that unless you have Inspire.
> 
> The multis are saved as Sine presets. I made a Sine folder. On Mac you install the unzipped folder under User>Shared>Sine. Then you load them from Sine here:


This is awesome - thanks for this!


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

AllanH said:


> I had a similar problem a while ago with a different product. I had a drive connected over USB but formatted as FAT32/xFAT (sometimes the default). Somehow my installer ran into permission problems with the FAT32/EXFAT drive. A reformat with NTFS completely resolved the permission issue.
> 
> So if your J: is a drive connected over USB a suggestion would be to make sure it's NTFS.
> 
> This is all I can think of. I hope you get it working!


Hi AllanH,

No the J: drive is an internal pcie ssd drive, it is the main drive that houses all of my OT libraries, always worked perfectly fine. 

I managed to delete MA3 which was partially installed, once it was deleted, SINE worked fine as it always did. So, I'm guessing this is related to MA3. At least I'm able to use SINE, with all my other libraries. I hope OT support will figure out what is the problem when they are back.

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

Hi,

Yesterday, I couldn't complete the download of MA 3, and that caused issues with SINE standalone, and the player, which were not responsive due to some glitch, it could be the download of MA 3, but not sure. The only way to fix it was to repeatedly try to delete MA 3 from the SINE library, which after multiple attempts to do that, I was able to by pressing the 'Settings' button, and selecting delete from library. Once MA 3 was no longer showing up in SINE's libraries, everything worked properly.

Well, this morning I had a bit more adventurous, and thrill seeking spirit, so I decided to see if I can download MA 4, and MA 5 using SINE standalone, and to my surprise, both of them were installed successfully with no issues. Now I'm thinking if I should try to take the bigger risk of trying to install MA 3 (which caused issues), again, to see if it will be installed without issues, or wait for OT Tech-Support before bothering with it.

Anyway, I'm happy I have MA 4, and MA 5 installed now, in addition to MA 1, and MA 2 which were installed a while back. So, I'm only missing MA 3.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Kony (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Now I'm thinking if I should try to take the bigger risk of trying to install MA 3 (which caused issues), again, to see if it will be installed without issues


My gut feeling is that there was a bug affecting that particular download but that it should work okay if you try again. I assume it should be okay as there haven't been any other reports about MA3 not downloading.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

Kony said:


> My gut feeling is that there was a bug affecting that particular download but that it should work okay if you try again. I assume it should be okay as there haven't been any other reports about MA3 not downloading.


Hi @Kony,

I'm really hoping that your gut feeling is true.  

I have been itching to try downloading MA 3, after MA 4, and MA 5, were downloaded without any issues. 

I might just try downloading MA 3 again today, and see if I'm luckier today. I will post an update once I try again later today. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## djrustycans (Dec 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I've rebuilt most of the Kontakt multis for Ark 3 in Sine, and most of it is straightforward. The only real difficulty is the percussion is mapped differently, and I'm not sure how to recreate a couple of the patches such as "Low Drum Ensemble Accent" in Sine. I found the percussion laggy in Sine compared to Kontakt as well. For the morphing patches, I used Polymap, with dynamics set to the modwheel and morphing set to CC32. Beware that it's really easy to break the functionality of the polymap. I didn't bother with multi 20 or 21, since they are only percussion. Preset 3A uses Inspire 1, so don't load that unless you have Inspire.
> 
> The multis are saved as Sine presets. I made a Sine folder. On Mac you install the unzipped folder under User>Shared>Sine. Then you load them from Sine here:


Thanks for this!


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

Hi @Kony ,

OK, gave MA 3 installation its last chance, but sadly it didn't cooperate. It kept crashing SINE. 

So, after almost an hour of non stop closing, and re-launching SINE due to the crashing every time I launch it, and trying to delete MA 3, I also had to be quick with my mouse to expand the GUI to full screen, because MA 3 was further down in the GUI, and not accessible when SINE launches, before it crashes, then try to delete the library via the settings button, this was a nerve racking experience. Finally I got lucky in one of the iterations of finally deleting it from the library. and all is back working fine.

My guess is there is a problem with the download files, @Getsumen mentioned this, and posted some instructions to try something out related to zipping a file, ..etc , but I'm tired of dealing with this install, and will most likely wait to see what OT Tech-Support has to offer to fix it.

Very strange that I have MA 1,2,4,5 all installed without issues, and working fine, but MA 3 won't even install, and messes up SINE.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 26, 2021)

I'm not sure I've downloaded any of the Sine versions of Met Ark. And my 2nd computer with most of the sample libraries is Win 7 which doesn't take the new Sine version. I'm afraid to upgrade because it will likely mean a full reinstall of the OS and all the programs. I really don't want to do that. 

I'll probably just put MA5 on the primary computer, which is Windows 10. I'm not in a hurry. The Kontakt version works fine for me for the others.


----------



## Rudianos (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Kony ,
> 
> OK, gave MA 3 installation its last chance, but sadly it didn't cooperate. It kept crashing SINE.
> 
> ...


can you download 1 instrument at a time? I have it as of Friday. Smooth, 2-3 in between stirring the soup


----------



## szczaw (Dec 26, 2021)

End of Windows 7 era. The latest Sine runs on win 10 and up only. I'm being forced to upgrade. The brutality is unbelievable !


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> can you download 1 instrument at a time? I have it as of Friday. Smooth, 2-3 in between stirring the soup


I don't know if that's going to be a way around my issue with installing MA 3, but I'm nervous to deal with it, it has wasted a lot of my time already, and is holding my entire SINE libraries, and functionality hostage. So, I think it would be a wise thing to wait for OT Tech-Support to help in this matter. Kind of fed up dealing with it. 

Thanks.


----------



## dzilizzi (Dec 26, 2021)

szczaw said:


> End of Windows 7 era. The latest Sine runs on win 10 and up only. I'm being forced to upgrade. The brutality is unbelievable !


I didn't have to reload my old desktop when I upgraded to 10 about a year ago, but when I recently started looking at upgrading to be able to use the new Sine, every guide was talking about 10 deleting all the programs. I will have to research some more. I have already done a system image, so I am ready to do it.


----------



## galactic orange (Dec 26, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> can you download 1 instrument at a time? I have it as of Friday. Smooth, 2-3 in between stirring the soup


This. My download, while not crashing, did hang on certain MA3 instruments. I think I skipped a Violins 1 patch at the top that was taking a particularly long time and a trumpet repetition patch that was getting stuck. I went through choosing a particular mic and downloading 3-7 instruments with just that one mic. Rinse and repeat until the end and then choose another mic.

I also tried downloading all mics of one instrument at a time, but had less luck i.e. slower downloads or hanging. And as I mentioned in another post somewhere, I often decided to cancel a download by clicking the small ‘x’ which did nothing and had no visual feedback until all other downloads were finished. Then the whole thing would be finished, and the clicked on instruments would subsequently not be downloaded. I am on a 2018 Mac Mini.

Edit: I should also add that I had no trouble with MA4. I haven’t purchased MA5 (yet).


----------



## Kony (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi @Kony ,
> 
> OK, gave MA 3 installation its last chance, but sadly it didn't cooperate. It kept crashing SINE.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that - hope it gets sorted soon


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

galactic orange said:


> This. My download, while not crashing, did hang on certain MA3 instruments. I think I skipped a Violins 1 patch at the top that was taking a particularly long time and a trumpet repetition patch that was getting stuck. I went through choosing a particular mic and downloading 3-7 instruments with just that one mic. Rinse and repeat until the end and then choose another mic.
> 
> I also tried downloading all mics of one instrument at a time, but had less luck i.e. slower downloads or hanging. And as I mentioned in another post somewhere, I often decided to cancel a download by clicking the small ‘x’ which did nothing and had no visual feedback until all other downloads were finished. Then the whole thing would be finished, and the clicked on instruments would subsequently not be downloaded. I am on a 2018 Mac Mini.


@galactic orange ,

Interesting. So, did you click on the (Details) button, then select specific mics, and instruments at a time, instead of clicking on the (Download) button which download the full library to the specified destination you specify ?


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

Kony said:


> Sorry to hear that - hope it gets sorted soon


I'm used to these types issues once in a while, I have to deal with them. No worries. I was optimistic as well that it will work, since I had no issues with installing MA 4, and 5. Go figure.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

I wonder if I'm the only person that is having issues downloading MA3, when clicking on the Download button to download the full library ?


----------



## Kony (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm used to these types issues once in a while, I have to deal with them. No worries. I was optimistic as well that it will work, since I had no issues with installing MA 4, and 5. Go figure.


Looks like I was wrong btw as others are now reporting issues with the MA3 download as well.


----------



## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

Kony said:


> Looks like I was wrong btw as others are now reporting issues with the MA3 download as well.


OH.. that's a bit of encouraging news for me. Where did you see those posted ?


----------



## Kony (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> OH.. that's a bit of encouraging news for me. Where did you see those posted ?


Well Galactic Orange mentioned download issues a few posts above. Assume there must be a bug on some of the patches or mics?


----------



## galactic orange (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @galactic orange ,
> 
> Interesting. So, did you click on the (Details) button, then select specific mics, and instruments at a time, instead of clicking on the (Download) button which download the full library to the specified destination you specify ?


Yes. Exactly. Clicking on Download seemed to bottleneck everything even though I had over 200GB free on my drive.


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## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

galactic orange said:


> Yes. Exactly. Clicking on Download seemed to bottleneck everything even though I had over 200GB free on my drive.


Very Strange ! How come I was able to download all of my other libraries using the (Donwload) button that does a full download of a library. I did this process also to download Berlin Main Orchestral libraries (SINE), and had no issues.

My guess MA 3 has a bug that needs to be fixed by OT. I'm going to wait until it is fixed.

Thanks for the feedback.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I'm using SINE 1.0.8 , but as soon as I launch the standalone version it freezes, and I get a message that program is not responding. and have to close the program via Windows.
> 
> I never had this issue, I also checked my internet connection just in case it is something from my side, but that's not it.
> 
> ...



Welcome to SINE.


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## muziksculp (Dec 26, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> Welcome to SINE.


LOL. but I'm not new to SINE, but Thanks for Welcoming me to SINE 

MA 3 is the only library that has caused issues for me, mainly installing/downloading it has been very problematic. I gave up, until they fix the problem.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 26, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> LOL. but I'm not new to SINE, but Thanks for Welcoming me to SINE



You can't say you have truly used SINE until you've experienced its instability.


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## AndyP (Dec 26, 2021)

I still have time to decide whether to get MA5 or not.
I guess for now I'll leave MA 1 - 4 on Kontakt and install only MA 5 in SINE. So far I only have Phoenix as SINE version, and rarely use it because of SINE. 
But maybe that will change when I use SINE more. At 166€ actually a no brainer, and then I think about whether I really need it.
On the other hand, the string shorts, runs and also the brass fanfares are somehow very appealing. On top of that another choir ... hmmm.

In general, I mainly use the choirs from the ARKS, I like them a lot. And the strings in MA4 are also my taste.

Sine is a bit like the Spitfire Player for me, not my cup of tea. Not unusable, but I prefer to work with Synchron Player and Kontakt.


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## AndyP (Dec 26, 2021)

As far as I can remember with my SINE experiments with MA1 I can use both versions in parallel. Kontakt and SINE, but this costs me 300 GB of valuable disk space.


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> You can't say you have truly used SINE until you've experienced its instability.


I find cursing at Sine regularly keeps its misbehavior in check.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I find cursing at Sine regularly keeps its misbehavior in check.


If this worked for me, Sine would be running like a Ferrari ‘cause I’ve run outta swear words.


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## daan1412 (Dec 26, 2021)

Quick question to MA owners, as I'm fighting with myself over this deal... Is the seating much different overall compared to the standard orchestra seating? I think I've heard low strings are centered or something like that (maybe in one of the Arks, I'm not sure). I'm trying to figure out how problematic would it be to blend with libraries recorded in standard seating.


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## Rudianos (Dec 26, 2021)

daan1412 said:


> Quick question to MA owners, as I'm fighting with myself over this deal... Is the seating much different overall compared to the standard orchestra seating? I think I've heard low strings are centered or something like that (maybe in one of the Arks, I'm not sure). I'm trying to figure out how problematic would it be to blend with libraries recorded in standard seating.


I have all the lows here from OT. IDK if detect a huge difference in that aspect. Maybe I dont know what to listen for.

Post in thread 'Ultimate Low Shorts Thread' https://vi-control.net/community/threads/ultimate-low-shorts-thread.119273/post-5010470


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## tim727 (Dec 26, 2021)

After spending a lot of time trying get people's takes on Ark 4 on SINE I decided to download some instruments in Ark 2 SINE to assess how that sounds compared to Kontakt. Granted that's not Ark 4 but I figured it could still give me an overall sense of the quality of the Ark ports. I've noticed some non-trivial differences across the board between the Arks on SINE vs Kontakt:

(1) The legato is _definitely_ different. The transitions in SINE feel generally a bit more jarring while the ones in Kontakt feel smoother. To be clear _neither_ is perfect. And even beyond that, it's worth saying that I don't think the legato transitions in Kontakt are exactly anything to write home about. That said, when I listened to legato passages across different instruments in SINE I was more likely to notice something that sounded _obviously synthetic_, whereas I was less prone to notice that in Kontakt. In fairness to SINE though there was one type of situation in which it might edge out Kontakt, at least depending on one's perspective. In Kontakt sometimes due to the lack of definition in transitions in fast passages it would occasionally feel like certain notes are just lost. Like in a quick passage with the Ark 1 womens' choir for instance where there were let's say four notes, it might only be possible to really discern three. They would sort of just "blend" together. Whereas in SINE, due to the more jarring transitions it was occasionally easier to pick out the individual notes, though this isn't necessarily a good thing because it sounded unrealistic in its own right, just in a different way. It depends on your perspective I guess which you would prefer. So to sum up, all in all I don't think legato is a strength for OT in general, but I would give Kontakt legato a bit of an edge.

(2) The sound itself is different in SINE vs Kontakt. In certain instances it was harder to notice and in others it was easier. To be clear it's not a massive or striking difference, but the Kontakt versions seem to have a fuller or warmer sound ... a certain "je ne sais quois" that the SINE versions lack. Since I had this suspicion and wasn't sure if it was just my ears playing tricks on me, I decided to seek to verify what I was suspecting. So I loaded up the Ark 1 women's choir in both versions and compared the frequency response using the overlay feature in FabFilter Pro Q3. Indeed the Kontakt version had a stronger response in the lower frequencies which undoubtedly is related to the sonic differences I was noticing. My guess is that the differences aren't actually restricted to that range, but that was just where it was obvious when looking at a visual comparison using that particular EQ plugin. Again this is probably the type of thing, perhaps similar to the legato differences, that may come down to personal taste. For me, I feel like there is maybe more a sense of space in the Kontakt version, almost like there is a little bit of AB mic mixed in (even though it was off in all my comparisons). All in all, I feel that the sound/tone in Kontakt has an edge. Again, not a massive difference, but a difference nonetheless.

(3) There appears to be some kind compression or processing that is occurring in the SINE versions that is not present in the Kontakt ones. It took me a bit of time to notice this, but as I continued to perform my technical comparisons it became apparent that the dynamic range (at least from a volume standpoint, perhaps not as much from a tone standpoint) was notably less in SINE vs Kontakt. This was less obvious in the mid ranges of most instruments but became pretty apparent in the upper registers of many instruments, for instance in the female choirs and the Ark 2 flugelhorns (my guess is this is actually occurring in all instruments but I only tried several for the purpose of the technical comparisons I'm talking about). I would notice that when performing a simple arpeggiated type line over the full range of an instrument in Kontakt there would be a notable and expected volume increase as the instrument got up to its highest registers, which in my opinion, adds to the feeling of realism in the performance. In SINE though the volume levels stayed much more tame when getting up to those same registers. That produces a more even performance (from a volume standpoint), and some people may even prefer this, but IMO it takes some of the life out of the performance. Beyond that I also don't like the fact that this processing is occurring automatically. If I want to compress an instrument I can do so myself and I'd much rather have samples that are as raw as possible. My sense is that whatever this process is is also affecting the actual tone in various ways and in fact, it may even be responsible for the tone differences noted in point (2) above. *All in all, between this point (3) and point (2) it is my sense that the SINE versions, on average, lack some of the "character" or "magic" of the Kontakt ones. There is that extra 5-10% of "liveliness" that basically seems to have been removed. Again, it's not a massive difference, and perhaps in context most people would not notice, but it is definitely a difference.*

(4) Now onto what might be a more concerning issue. I was able to reliably break the Ark 1/2 men's/women's short/long marcato patches in SINE again and again. There is some type of bug with the release samples that, under certain circumstances, will render the patch unusable. Basically if I let cubase start playing a sequence for that patch, and then part of the way through I move the play cursor/potion back to the beginning, every subsequent note that is played has this strange ghosting effect. To me it sounds kind of like the release samples are playing at the end of where the full regular samples would end, rather than the moment you take your fingers off the keys (which is how it should be instead). There is a work around, which is to turn off the release samples and then turn them back on. Once that is done the problem disappears but will easily recur again under the circumstances described. For me this would be an issue that would render this patch almost useless since this would cause a big productivity headache. I'm always moving the playing cursor around as I'm working on a section of a piece and that would cause this problem to manifest quite often. My biggest concern about this kind of thing is that it is unclear to me how many of these issues might be present in Ark 4 SINE (which is a matter of concern to me since that's the lib for which I'm trying to decide whether to pick up Kontakt or SINE version). I did see that OT just released an update a few days ago to fix the much maligned Ark 4 choir RR issue, so that's encouraging. What isn't encouraging though is that it took them *two years* to do this, despite obvious awareness of the issue. With that kind of track record I'm not seeing a strong reason to believe that they would fix the type of issue I described here in a timely manner, which is perhaps the most compelling reason to opt for the Kontakt version.

All in all, I am leaning heavily toward Kontakt at the moment but am currently continuing with some tests with additional instruments. @Emmanuel Rousseau and @lettucehat I'm tagging you guys as I've talked to both of you about some of these things in the recent past so I figure you each might have some interest or things to add.

I'm not looking to start any negativity or fanboyish arguments in this thread. I've merely conducted some tests and have reported my results. I would love however some interesting, engaging, and respectful discussion on these matters.

Cheers,
Tim


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2021)

tim727 said:


> After spending a lot of time trying get people's takes on Ark 4 on SINE I decided to download some instruments in Ark 2 SINE to assess how that sounds compared to Kontakt. Granted that's not Ark 4 but I figured it could still give me an overall sense of the quality of the Ark ports. I've noticed some non-trivial differences across the board between the Arks on SINE vs Kontakt:
> 
> (1) The legato is _definitely_ different. The transitions in SINE feel generally a bit more jarring while the ones in Kontakt feel smoother. To be clear _neither_ is perfect. And even beyond that, it's worth saying that I don't think the legato transitions in Kontakt are exactly anything to write home about. That said, when I listened to legato passages across different instruments in SINE I was more likely to notice something that sounded _obviously synthetic_, whereas I was less prone to notice that in Kontakt. In fairness to SINE though there was one type of situation in which it might edge out Kontakt, at least depending on one's perspective. In Kontakt sometimes due to the lack of definition in transitions in fast passages it would occasionally feel like certain notes are just lost. Like in a quick passage with the Ark 1 womens' choir for instance where there were let's say four notes, it might only be possible to really discern three. They would sort of just "blend" together. Whereas in SINE, due to the more jarring transitions it was occasionally easier to pick out the individual notes, though this isn't necessarily a good thing because it sounded unrealistic in its own right, just in a different way. It depends on your perspective I guess which you would prefer. So to sum up, all in all I don't think legato is a strength for OT in general, but I would give Kontakt legato a bit of an edge.
> 
> ...


I agree that Sine and Kontakt versions sound different and I’d be curious if they null when volume matched. That is, are we hearing what’s not there?

But I have more or less the opposite reactions to the sounds, very much preferring the sound of the Sine versions, which to me have more presence. But how much of what we are hearing is trying to confirm our preferences for Kontakt and Sine? My guess is far more than any difference in sound. Which is interesting in its own right of course.


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## MartinH. (Dec 26, 2021)

I just bought MA3 for Kontakt and immediately after I hit the purchase button, I found the first "bug", right on the cover: 






Those cogwheels wouldn't even work (even ignoring the huge gaps I mean), the teeth on the lower one are too big!


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## tim727 (Dec 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I agree that Sine and Kontakt versions sound different and I’d be curious if they null when volume matched. That is, are we hearing what’s not there?
> 
> But I have more or less the opposite reactions to the sounds, very much preferring the sound of the Sine versions, which to me have more presence. But how much of what we are hearing is trying to confirm our preferences for Kontakt and Sine? My guess is far more than any difference in sound. Which is interesting in its own right of course.


I'm not really trying to confirm a preference as I just want to get the best product I can. I don't have Native Instrument posters up on my bedroom wall or something like that. And as stated, there were a few moments where I actually may have even preferred SINE, though on the whole I am leaning more squarely toward Kontakt.


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## Rudianos (Dec 26, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I'm not really trying to confirm a preference as I just want to get the best product I can. I don't have Native Instrument posters up on my bedroom wall or something like that. And as stated, there were a few moments where I actually may have even preferred SINE, though on the whole I am leaning more squarely toward Kontakt.


maybe some audio recordings to elaborate your points? Probably moot for me because we cannot back to Kontakt if we start in SINE LOL. Where your impressions from playing these patches on your keyboard - or straight MIDI into the DAW? Thanks


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I'm not really trying to confirm a preference as I just want to get the best product I can. I don't have Native Instrument posters up on my bedroom wall or something like that. And as stated, there were a few moments where I actually may have even preferred SINE, though on the whole I am leaning more squarely toward Kontakt.


And what I’m saying is that I have the opposite reaction, and I think the differences are small enough that our preferences about other things is making us hear differences greater than is actually present. I’ve been very happy with Arks 1&2 in Sine. I’m more undecided about 3 so far. Ark 3 has never been my favorite, and the mapping of the percussion in Sine doesn’t yet make sense to me. But I only downloaded it yesterday. Because Sine is not limited to 12 slots like Capsule it is a bit easier to build elaborate multis into a single track. I’m not sure how useful that capability will be.


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## tc9000 (Dec 26, 2021)

Is is confimred that both Sine and Kontakt implement lossless compression? I did some cursory Googling and couldent find clear info for either NCW or SINE Performance Compression. If either is lossy, I wonder if that could cause a tonal difference?

EDIT: I suspect NCW is lossless, while SPC may be lossy... hmmm.

EDIT 2: Ohh wait what's that red dot shining on my h


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## Flyo (Dec 26, 2021)

This statements about Kontakt and Sine is true. Based on a comparison on choir with arks 1&2 it sound different, and is audible on this kind of clean compression on it. I ended used the Kontakt because of the Rawness of the original version. Sounds more natural or loud when the max velocity is reached


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 26, 2021)

tc9000 said:


> Is is confimred that both Sine and Kontakt implement lossless compression? I did some cursory Googling and couldent find clear info for either NCW or SINE Performance Compression. If either is lossy, I wonder if that could cause a tonal difference?
> 
> EDIT: I suspect NCW is lossless, while SPC may be lossy... hmmm.
> 
> EDIT 2: Ohh wait what's that red dot shining on my h


I believe with NCW, it is lossless and you can expect _up to 50% of the size of WAV or AIFF, _which is similar to FLAC. For SINEarc, it seems to be ~30% of the size. So either OT is a bunch of geniuses that came up with a lossless compression algorithm that is 20+% better than Kontakt's (and thus should rename their company Pied Piper) [but can't seem to port libraries properly or fix basic bugs] or it is lossy in some (possibly detrimental) way.


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## Getsumen (Dec 26, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I believe with NCW, it is lossless and you can expect _up to 50% of the size of WAV or AIFF, _which is similar to FLAC. For SINEarc, it seems to be ~30% of the size. So either OT is a bunch of geniuses that came up with a lossless compression algorithm that is 20+% better than Kontakt's (and thus should rename their company Pied Piper) [but can't seem to port libraries properly or fix basic bugs] or it is lossy in some (possibly detrimental) way.




SPC was originally based on flac it seems so it should be entirely lossless.

Tbh it makes sense that SINEarc would be better than ncw. Afaik NCW is quite old and hasn't been touched upon in a long time. (Talking out my ass here, just what I assume)


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 26, 2021)

Getsumen said:


> SPC was originally based on flac it seems so it should be entirely lossless.
> 
> Tbh it makes sense that SINEarc would be better than ncw. Afaik NCW is quite old and hasn't been touched upon in a long time. (Talking out my ass here, just what I assume)



I don't hear him saying anything about SPC being lossless though. Also, why does their site still say everything is SINEarc? Does that mean they haven't moved to SPC still or is it the same thing as SINEarc?

Call me a skeptic but nothing in OT's history makes me believe they have the technical expertise to create a totally new lossless compression codec that is significantly better than FLAC.


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## Rudianos (Dec 26, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I don't hear him saying anything about that SPC is lossless though. Also, why does their site still say everything is SINEarc? Does that mean they haven't moved to SPC still or is it the same thing as SINEarc?
> 
> Call me a skeptic but nothing in OT's history makes me believe they have the technical expertise to create a totally new lossless compression codec that is significantly better than FLAC.


I wonder if there is a way we can technically analyze the sound that these patches make?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 26, 2021)

Rudianos said:


> I wonder if there is a way we can technically analyze the sound that these patches make?


A null test of playing the same note on the same patch with Kontakt vs. SINE - but I believe OT also manipulated the samples for the SINE ports to "clean them up" so not sure that would be a valid test.


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## Gensaii (Dec 26, 2021)

tim727 said:


> (1) The legato is _definitely_ different. The transitions in SINE feel generally a bit more jarring while the ones in Kontakt feel smoother. To be clear _neither_ is perfect. And even beyond that, it's worth saying that I don't think the legato transitions in Kontakt are exactly anything to write home about. That said, when I listened to legato passages across different instruments in SINE I was more likely to notice something that sounded _obviously synthetic_, whereas I was less prone to notice that in Kontakt. In fairness to SINE though there was one type of situation in which it might edge out Kontakt, at least depending on one's perspective. In Kontakt sometimes due to the lack of definition in transitions in fast passages it would occasionally feel like certain notes are just lost. Like in a quick passage with the Ark 1 womens' choir for instance where there were let's say four notes, it might only be possible to really discern three. They would sort of just "blend" together. Whereas in SINE, due to the more jarring transitions it was occasionally easier to pick out the individual notes, though this isn't necessarily a good thing because it sounded unrealistic in its own right, just in a different way. It depends on your perspective I guess which you would prefer. So to sum up, all in all I don't think legato is a strength for OT in general, but I would give Kontakt legato a bit of an edge.


Would you say the legato difference is as bad as that of SINE's Berlin Brass prior to the update?

I'm thinking of using my 25€ voucher on Ark 4's High Strings to test the powerlegato, though I don't have the Kontakt version to compare it to. I was expecting OT to release the rest of the Arks walkthroughs before the sale ends but apparently they're off for Christmas? Kind of a weird situation.


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## andyhy (Dec 26, 2021)

Gensaii said:


> Would you say the legato difference is as bad as that of SINE's Berlin Brass prior to the update?
> 
> I'm thinking of using my 25€ voucher on Ark 4's High Strings to test the powerlegato, though I don't have the Kontakt version to compare it to. I was expecting OT to release the rest of the Arks walkthroughs before the sale ends but apparently they're off for Christmas? Kind of a weird situation.


I read that in another comment but I think you'll find that OT support is available but with fewer staff. Bit like their 24/7 cover which works well in my experience being as I'm CET+7. They seem to have some kind of shift system in operation.


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## tim727 (Dec 26, 2021)

Gensaii said:


> Would you say the legato difference is as bad as that of SINE's Berlin Brass prior to the update?
> 
> I'm thinking of using my 25€ voucher on Ark 4's High Strings to test the powerlegato, though I don't have the Kontakt version to compare it to.


I can't really comment on whether it's good or bad per se. It's definitely different though. I will say that for the most part the SINE legato seems to prompt more moments where the instrument jumps out as synthetic, but perhaps others would feel differently. There are also some moment where I might even prefer the SINE legato in certain passages as the way the Kontakt legato, at least on certain instruments, "blurs" in fast lines can be off-putting in its own right. I think it's largely a matter of taste. I will say that absolutely nothing is as egregious as some of the pre-update BB trumpet examples that some users posted ... so there is that.



> I was expecting OT to release the rest of the Arks walkthroughs before the sale ends but apparently they're off for Christmas?



As for Ark 4 keep in mind that OT has updated their website to have individual instrument demos as of a couple days ago, so at least you could go and listen to those. It's not as good as having a full walkthrough but it's better than nothing. Also, support is definitely not off for Christmas. In fact literally just yesterday, on xmas day, they manually added Ark 3 to my account for me.

I will also note that after completing additional testing of Arks 1 and 2 on SINE I am definitely finding some spots where the SINE versions do sound better (I think the Wagner tubas were one such instance). There are also certain instruments where I essentially can't discern any differences at all between the two versions (the euphoniums for example), so it is definitely a mixed bag and I don't want to paint a picture that the SINE Arks are horrible or that they are worse across the board as that is certainly not the case. For me the single biggest issue is the choir marcato release bug I found. For me that would make those patches unusable, so I'm concerned that Ark 4 might have the same problem :(


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## Gensaii (Dec 26, 2021)

tim727 said:


> As for Ark 4 keep in mind that OT has updated their website to have individual instrument demos as of a couple days ago, so at least you could go and listen to those. It's not as good as having a full walkthrough but it's better than nothing. Also, support is definitely not off for Christmas. In fact literally just yesterday, on xmas day, they manually added Ark 3 to my account for me.


Just so we're sure, those individual demos reflect the SINE counterparts not Kontakt correct? You've been immensely helpful. Thanks!


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## tim727 (Dec 26, 2021)

Gensaii said:


> Just so we're sure, those individual demos reflect the SINE counterparts not Kontakt correct? You've been immensely helpful. Thanks!


I can't technically confirm that they represent the SINE versions since it doesn't say that anywhere on the website and no one from OT has told me as much, but there is a 98% chance they are. My reasoning is that they never had such audio demos for any instruments before their SINE conversions (this is true across all their libs, not just Ark 4) so I would be extremely surprised if these were the Kontakt versions.


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I will also note that after completing additional testing of Arks 1 and 2 on SINE I am definitely finding some spots where the SINE versions do sound better (I think the Wagner tubas were one such instance). There are also certain instruments where I essentially can't discern any differences at all between the two versions (the euphoniums for example), so it is definitely a mixed bag and I don't want to paint a picture that the SINE Arks are horrible or that they are worse across the board as that is certainly not the case. For me the single biggest issue is the choir marcato release bug I found. For me that would make those patches unusable, so I'm concerned that Ark 4 might have the same problem :(


I would agree with this, and there are definitely Kontakt bits that I find preferable to Sine, even as I prefer the Sine versions of Arks 1 and 2 overall.

One interesting thing I've found while playing around with Ark 3 is how different the midi needs to be for the Sine and Kontakt versions. One reason they are hard to compare is you can't for the most part just drop the same midi on the patches.

These are all default mics (tree and spot), no processing.

1. String Orchestra Repetitions cluster wide 1/2 note:

View attachment Ark 3 Sine Kontakt Test.mp3


2. String Orchestra Repetitions cluster wide 1/8 note:

View attachment Ark 3 Sine Kontakt Test 2 (eighths).mp3


3. Low orchestra from Multi 3. I created this multi in Sine by copying the instruments in the Kontakt version. I'm not sure I got all the settings correct.

View attachment Ark 3 Sine Kontakt Test Low Brass (Multi 3).mp3


4. Fanfare (using Multi 3). This is not how I would do this fanfare even if I was restricted to Ark 3 as there are better ways to execute it with the library.

View attachment Ark 3 Sine Kontakt Test Fanfare.mp3



1. Sine, then Kontakt
2. Sine, then Kontakt
3. Kontakt, then Sine (Quite the intonation issue in the Kontakt version)
4. Sine, then Kontakt


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I would agree with this, and there are definitely Kontakt bits that I find preferable to Sine, even as I prefer the Sine versions of Arks 1 and 2 overall.
> 
> One interesting thing I've found while playing around with Ark 3 is how different the midi needs to be for the Sine and Kontakt versions. One reason they are hard to compare is you can't for the most part just drop the same midi on the patches.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks. In every version--and I didn't peek--I preferred Sine.

Edit: It doesn't even matter if you peek. It is patently obvious.


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> Wow, thanks. In every version--and I didn't peek--I preferred Sine.
> 
> Edit: It doesn't even matter if you peek. It is patently obvious.


So far I haven't had any issues in Logic with Ark 3 breaking anything or crashing despite using the repetitions patches. I'm using Logic 10.5.1, and so far Sine is still letting me use 1.0.7. Do you have a reliable way of making Logic crash with Ark 3?


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> So far I haven't had any issues in Logic with Ark 3 breaking anything or crashing despite using the repetitions patches. I'm using Logic 10.5.1, and so far Sine is still letting me use 1.0.7. Do you have a reliable way of making Logic crash with Ark 3?


I don't own Ark 3. But the chords patch from Ark 5 will crash it every time.


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## tim727 (Dec 26, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I would agree with this, and there are definitely Kontakt bits that I find preferable to Sine, even as I prefer the Sine versions of Arks 1 and 2 overall.
> 
> One interesting thing I've found while playing around with Ark 3 is how different the midi needs to be for the Sine and Kontakt versions. One reason they are hard to compare is you can't for the most part just drop the same midi on the patches.
> 
> ...


Interesting. For some of these I think I do perhaps prefer SINE, but then again I also was just not always so fond of some of the stuff in Ark 3. To be honest I even sometimes found it didn't sit so well with Arks 1 and 2.

@jbuhler I have certainly found some instances in my testing where I prefer SINE, but at least as many where I prefer Kontakt. For me the most frustrating aspect of this is that the differences don't always manifest themselves in quite the same way across instruments. For instance for the choirs I think I really prefer the Kontakt legato, whereas for some of the other instruments it feels essentially the same on both versions. Then there are certain patches where I thought the tone of SINE might be a bit better, and others where I like Kontakt better. It's really tough. Not sure which to pick at this point. I like that the SINE version of Ark 4 does have the RR choir bug fixed ... but I'm worried that it might also have the same choir marcato issue I found in Arks 1 and 2 (which is actually a really big bug IMO). Meanwhile "power legato" is sort of a unique thing and it's hard for me to gauge if it sounds good in SINE because I haven't heard enough examples of it. Ark 4 on Kontakt though will wind up costing me about $215 more (due to current bundle sale, since I'll be getting Ark 5 as well) ... so there is that lol


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I don't own Ark 3. But the chords patch from Ark 5 will crash it every time.


I install Ark 5 tomorrow so I’ll see how my system holds up with it.


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## jbuhler (Dec 26, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Interesting. For some of these I think I do perhaps prefer SINE, but then again I also was just not always so fond of some of the stuff in Ark 3. To be honest I even sometimes found it didn't sit so well with Arks 1 and 2.


Yeah, I agree, and I found the Kontakt version of Ark 3 often yielded a flat stereo image, especially with the low brass. The Sine version so far is a little better in that respect but the Kontakt version gives better control over the length of the notes in multi 3. I’m not sure why. On the other hand the repetitions in Kontakt have to be offset ahead of the beat for them to sync properly whereas the Sine versions sync as expected when the midi is aligned to the grid. 

I haven’t yet figured out how OT thinks we should be Setting up percussion in Sine. The Kontakt Ark percussion patches are also a bit of a mess but they are a model of clarity compared to Sine.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

I just bought Ark 4 on Kontakt. I figure that I much prefer the choir legato in Kontakt and there are other things that I prefer as well. Some stuff may be better in SINE, but when I get the Ark bundle (to get Ark 5) I'll get a SINE license for Ark 4 anyway so I can always use any patches in SINE if I end up preferring them. It was more money, but considering how heavily I use the Arks and for how many years I know I'll use them it was worth it for the peace of mind. Last thing I would want is to find that choir marcato bug in Ark 4 SINE or be really disappointed with the power legato or something of that nature.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Does anyone know how much the Ark bundle should cost if you own Arks 1-4 (which I now do)? I could have sworn I saw people saying that it is supposed to be 166 euros, but for me it shows 221 euros. Part of me wonders if it's adding some money on account of the fact that I just bought the Kontakt version of Ark 4 rather then the SINE version so it's basically adding a bit for the upgrade fee?


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## Gensaii (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Does anyone know how much the Ark bundle should cost if you own Arks 1-4 (which I now do)? I could have sworn I saw people saying that it is supposed to be 166 euros, but for me it shows 221 euros. Part of me wonders if it's adding some money on account of the fact that I just bought the Kontakt version of Ark 4 rather then the SINE version so it's basically adding a bit for the upgrade fee?


I'm thinking it's simply not accounting for you owning Ark 4 towards the bundle discount at all. Cause I kept reading people saying you have to add enter your serial number into SINE for it to reflect the new discounted price. Which of course in your case means first paying the upgrade of 10% of the product's full price to my knowledge.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Gensaii said:


> I'm thinking it's simply not accounting for you owning Ark 4 towards the bundle discount at all. Cause I kept reading people saying you have to add enter your serial number into SINE for it to reflect the new discounted price. Which of course in your case means first paying the upgrade of 10% of the product's full price to my knowledge.


It is definitely counting Ark 4 since before purchasing Ark 4 it was like 376 euros, so the second I purchased Ark 4 it knocked it down by about 150 euros. Now that I think of it more, the discrepancy must absolutely be the upgrade cost since the difference between 166 euros and 221 euros is 55, which is exactly the upgrade cost for Ark 4. Oh well ...


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## Eptesicus (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> After spending a lot of time trying get people's takes on Ark 4 on SINE I decided to download some instruments in Ark 2 SINE to assess how that sounds compared to Kontakt. Granted that's not Ark 4 but I figured it could still give me an overall sense of the quality of the Ark ports. I've noticed some non-trivial differences across the board between the Arks on SINE vs Kontakt:
> 
> (1) The legato is _definitely_ different. The transitions in SINE feel generally a bit more jarring while the ones in Kontakt feel smoother. To be clear _neither_ is perfect. And even beyond that, it's worth saying that I don't think the legato transitions in Kontakt are exactly anything to write home about. That said, when I listened to legato passages across different instruments in SINE I was more likely to notice something that sounded _obviously synthetic_, whereas I was less prone to notice that in Kontakt. In fairness to SINE though there was one type of situation in which it might edge out Kontakt, at least depending on one's perspective. In Kontakt sometimes due to the lack of definition in transitions in fast passages it would occasionally feel like certain notes are just lost. Like in a quick passage with the Ark 1 womens' choir for instance where there were let's say four notes, it might only be possible to really discern three. They would sort of just "blend" together. Whereas in SINE, due to the more jarring transitions it was occasionally easier to pick out the individual notes, though this isn't necessarily a good thing because it sounded unrealistic in its own right, just in a different way. It depends on your perspective I guess which you would prefer. So to sum up, all in all I don't think legato is a strength for OT in general, but I would give Kontakt legato a bit of an edge.
> 
> ...



Thanks for doing this.

This has highlighted to me an interesting point about their demos for the libraries on their website. Presumably the older Arks are till using demos from the Kontakt version? If so, I find that to be a bit problematic potentially, especially if the two versions do behave differently with the legato and have a different sonic character.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> Thanks for doing this.
> 
> This has highlighted to me an interesting point about their demos for the libraries on their website. Presumably the older Arks are till using demos from the Kontakt version? If so, I find that to be a bit problematic potentially, especially if the two versions do behave differently with the legato and have a different sonic character.


This is almost certainly the case yes. Once again this is technically an assumption but I think a _very safe_ one. The only way it would not be the case is if the people who actually composed the demos redid them with the new ports, which I think is extremely unlikely (though possible, certainly in the case of the ones that were done by Sascha for instance).

Edit: By the way, to see how different a fuller piece can be in Kontakt vs SINE, you can take a look at the intro piece in the original walkthrough for Berlin Brass vs the new walkthrough for the SINE version. They use the same piece but the original one uses Kontakt (of course) while the new one _does _use SINE. You'll note that they sound quite a bit different and to my ears (and to those of many others) the original sounds quite a bit better. Some contend that perhaps the reason for that is that they just took the midi from the original and dumped it into SINE. Although this is possible, there is no reason to believe that that's actually what they did. Plus although that will affect certain aspects of the piece one thing it won't affect is the tone, and IMO the tone of the Kontakt version is definitely better. Now, that doesn't mean that these differences necessary manifest themselves to the same extent in comparisons of the various Ark versions for example, though at least in my investigation so far, some of them have (not always to the detriment of the library quality though to be fair).


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Just had a thorough run through of Ark 4 on Kontakt and *WOWWW*. I am extremely impressed with this library. Much more so than I thought I would be even. The tone and character are absolutely lovely. There are so many patches here that I think can definitely see a lot of use. I do really love the strings, as everyone seems to (especially the high and mid). The all woodwind combos are wonderful. The tuba/euphonium/contrabassoon combo is _exceptional_ and will see a lot of use. The choirs are absolutely beautiful. I'm particularly fond of the men choir sustains. The marimba/piano patch is a bit of a revelation. It's quirky and weird but also extremely beautiful. I'm definitely pretty blown away by this lib. Time will tell if I end up being happy I paid the extra $$$ for Kontakt (I haven't even yet tried out the SINE version), but I am very happy at least with the Kontakt version so far!


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> This is almost certainly the case yes. Once again this is technically an assumption but I think a _very safe_ one. The only way it would not be the case is if the people who actually composed the demos redid them with the new ports, which I think is extremely unlikely (though possible, certainly in the case of the ones that were done by Sascha for instance).
> 
> Edit: By the way, to see how different a fuller piece can be in Kontakt vs SINE, you can take a look at the intro piece in the original walkthrough for Berlin Brass vs the new walkthrough for the SINE version. They use the same piece but the original one uses Kontakt (of course) while the new one _does _use SINE. You'll note that they sound quite a bit different and to my ears (and to those of many others) the original sounds quite a bit better. Some contend that perhaps the reason for that is that they just took the midi from the original and dumped it into SINE. Although this is possible, there is no reason to believe that that's actually what they did. Plus although that will affect certain aspects of the piece one thing it won't affect is the tone, and IMO the tone of the Kontakt version is definitely better. Now, that doesn't mean that these differences necessary manifest themselves to the same extent in comparisons of the various Ark versions for example, though at least in my investigation so far, some of them have (not always to the detriment of the library quality though to be fair).


Yes, and I agree with you in that I also prefer the Kontakt version of the cue, though it needs to be kept in mind that the Sine version has the additional ff dynamic layer and that explains some if not most of the difference.

ETA: Because the number of dynamic layers is different, the cue is going to be different to the extent that the new dynamic layer is used. In addition, the size of each dynamic layers will have a smaller range on the modwheel or the velocity trigger, and that will have all kinds of consequences. In addition, Sine legato doesn't behave well if you remove a dynamic layer. Finally, given that the release of the Mains was obviously rushed, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they dumped the midi from the Kontakt version into the Sine version and then did some minimal tweaking until it sounded ok—that is, without polishing it. The Sine version doesn't sound bad, it just sounds less good than the Kontakt version, and it sounds less good to me mostly when the high dynamic layer kicks in.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Yes, and I agree with you in that I also prefer the Kontakt version of the cue, though it needs to be kept in mind that the Sine version has the additional ff dynamic layer and that explains some if not most of the difference.


Yes it has the additional dynamic layer which is an important point, but considering the fact that it is still the same arrangement/composition, the fact that it sounds better in Kontakt is not exactly a trivial matter. That being said it is just one data point, so there's that.


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Yes it has the additional dynamic layer which is an important point, but considering the fact that it is still the same arrangement/composition, the fact that it sounds better in Kontakt is not exactly a trivial matter. That being said it is just one data point, so there's that.


I still believe they took the Sine version to "good enough" and then ran out of time to polish it up. It's also possible that the added dynamic layer has made the library harder to control because each dynamic layer has less dynamic range. It's one reason I hope OT attends to the issue of disabling layers in legato patches: It's frequently useful to disable layers to increase resolution within layers.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I still believe they took the Sine version to "good enough" and then ran out of time to polish it up. It's also possible that the added dynamic layer has made the library harder to control because each dynamic layer has less dynamic range. It's one reason I hope OT attends to the issue of disabling layers in legato patches: It's frequently useful to disable layers to increase resolution within layers.


All of those are possible explanations. One or more might be right. Or perhaps none are. We don't actually know so can only guess. I do think though that for someone who is actively making SINE vs Kontakt decisions it is good for them to hear as many comparisons as possible. Then they can draw their own conclusions as to what they prefer as well as make their own assumptions as to what the reasons behind the disparities are.

I agree that they should work on making it so that disabling layers does not mess up the legato. I personally have never done it but I'm sure that many others would find it quite useful so currently it seems like a non-trivial gap in SINE.


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I agree that they should work on the layer disabling functionality. I personally have never done it but I'm sure that many others would find it quite useful so currently it seems like a non-trivial gap in SINE.


You can disable layers now, but it often makes the legato misbehave.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> You can disable layers now, but it often makes the legato misbehave.


Yep I'm with you ... my comment was just unclear so I edited it accordingly.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

I just had my first play through of Ark 5 and yikes ... really regretting that one at the moment. Especially considering how impressed I was by Ark 4. I can't remember the last time I was this underwhelmed by a library.


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## Gensaii (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Just had a thorough run through of Ark 4 on Kontakt and *WOWWW*. I am extremely impressed with this library. Much more so than I thought I would be even. The tone and character are absolutely lovely. There are so many patches here that I think can definitely see a lot of use. I do really love the strings, as everyone seems to (especially the high and mid). The all woodwind combos are wonderful. The tuba/euphonium/contrabassoon combo is _exceptional_ and will see a lot of use. The choirs are absolutely beautiful. I'm particularly fond of the men choir sustains. The marimba/piano patch is a bit of a revelation. It's quirky and weird but also extremely beautiful. I'm definitely pretty blown away by this lib. Time will tell if I end up being happy I paid the extra $$$ for Kontakt (I haven't even yet tried out the SINE version), but I am very happy at least with the Kontakt version so far!


Congratulations! That would've been me too but I think I might take the riskier route and go SINE.

Edit: For the bundle!


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I just had my first play through of Ark 5 and yikes ... really regretting that one at the moment. Especially considering how impressed I was by Ark 4. I can't remember the last time I was this underwhelmed by a library.


Ark 5 strikes me as a grab bag. I haven't finished downloading yet, so I can't say anything beyond what i've heard in demos and walkthroughs. The library of function? I don’t really have a clear idea of what this library is about. A Zeppelin? A future that never came to be? Sure, why not? 

That said from the walkthroughs I can see that it has some nifty bits that will get use, likely more than 3. And in pricing I don’t understand Ark 4 and 5 together to complete the bundle cost me about the same as buying Ark 4 alone on sale. 

I completely concur with you on Ark 4. It’s like one magical patch after another. I have yet to open an instrument and not find something inspiring. I now wonder why I was so resistant to buying this library when it first came on the market.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Ark 5 strikes me as a grab bag. I haven't finished downloading yet, so I can't say anything beyond what i've heard in demos and walkthroughs. The library of function? I don’t really have a clear idea of what this library is about. A Zeppelin? A future that never came to be? Sure, why not?
> 
> That said from the walkthroughs I can see that it has some nifty bits that will get use, likely more than 3. And in pricing I don’t understand Ark 4 and 5 together to complete the bundle cost me about the same as buying Ark 4 alone on sale.
> 
> I completely concur with you on Ark 4. It’s like one magical patch after another. I have yet to open an instrument and not find something inspiring. I now wonder why I was so resistant to buying this library when it first came on the market.


I think we're in a very similar boat. For Ark 5, I have no clue what "Orchestra of Functions" means ... and for me the library itself feels as disorganized and aimless as its name (for instance there is legato in the low strings but not the high ... I mean wtf?), so in that regard I suppose the name might be fitting. Though in retrospect perhaps Orchestra of Dysfunctions may have been more apt. I hope that some day I will find some use for it but as it stands right now I don't think I'll even be adding it to my template.

Ark 4 on the other hand ... what a gem. When it first came out I think I had trouble getting behind the instrument combination idea. I found myself being frustrated that they didn't just sample all of those instruments individually. But I think I was missing the whole point. I think the whole idea is that these combinations are more like green rather than blue + yellow. And I don't/didn't have green in my VI toolkit yet. I may have had blue + yellow, but even if I combined those together I still wouldn't _quite_ get green. For me as I was playing those Ark 4 patches today I felt like I was literally playing new instruments that simply didn't exist before that point, which was a really eye opening and inspiring experience. Beyond that I love the detail in the small section sizes, the unique articulations, and ... I know I said this before ... but I find the tone and character of the library to be absolutely exemplary across the board. I feel that these are the most beautiful Ark samples I've heard.


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## Marsen (Dec 27, 2021)

I'm near to give up and getting Ark Sine Bundle. 
Just hoping, OT will get this Sine thing working out fine for us all.
I hate to decide against my gut feeling. 
They have to make this Sine player absolute solid for all DAW's and OS's. Well...

@tim727 Ark 4 is one of my favourite libraries ever purchased. 
It's just incredible.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 27, 2021)

Marsen said:


> I'm near to give up and getting Ark Sine Bundle.
> Just hoping, OT will get this Sine thing working out fine for us all.
> I hate to decide against my gut feeling.
> They have to make this Sine player absolute solid for all DAW's and OS's. Well...


Sales will undoubtedly come again - but I'll withhold giving OT any more money until they have improved SINE and their overall QA.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Marsen said:


> I'm near to give up and getting Ark Sine Bundle.
> Just hoping, OT will get this Sine thing working out fine for us all.
> I hate to decide against my gut feeling.
> They have to make this Sine player absolute solid for all DAW's and OS's. Well...
> ...


I've only been playing around with it for a couple hours but I'm pretty sure I will come to feel the same way. At the very least I would say I'm more impressed by it right off the bat then I was by any of the other Arks (which is saying something because I really love Arks 1 and 2). 

By the way, when messing around with Ark 5 today SINE crashed like 3 times. I know that everyone has different machine setups and such but that's another thing that makes me glad I got the Kontakt version of Ark 4. Since it does seem like I'll be using that library a ton it would have been a shame if it were crashing the player every 5 minutes.


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## Marsen (Dec 27, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Sales will undoubtedly come again - but I'll withhold giving OT any more money until they have improved SINE and their overall QA.


That's, what my gut feeling is telling me.

But last Ark sale is more than one year ago. I don't wanna wait this long again. 
Maybe I should.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Marsen said:


> That's, what my gut feeling is telling me.
> 
> But last Ark sale is more than one year ago. I don't wanna wait this long again.
> Maybe I should.


Which Arks are you missing?


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## Marsen (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> By the way, when messing around with Ark 5 today SINE crashed like 3 times. I know that everyone has different machine setups and such but that's another thing that makes me glad I got the Kontakt version of Ark 4. Since it does seem like I'll be using that library a ton it would have been a shame if it were crashing the player every 5 minutes.


So true!
i'm glad too, having Ark 4 and 3 on Kontakt.

If we just could argue, it's the port of the old kontakt versions Ark 3+4, like the Berlin Mains, which make problems in Sine, but this seems just not to be the case, as Ark 5, a new Sine only version, is crashing on lot's of system.

With other words:
They release a brandnew library, put it on sale, go in holiday off, and this new release just crashes systems, while the bundle offer is running out.

This is odd and makes me feel really, really bad.


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## Marsen (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Which Arks are you missing?


1&2


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I think we're in a very similar boat. For Ark 5, I have no clue what "Orchestra of Functions" means ... and for me the library itself feels as disorganized and aimless as its name (for instance there is legato in the low strings but not the high ... I mean wtf?), so in that regard I suppose the name might be fitting. Though in retrospect perhaps Orchestra of Dysfunctions may have been more apt. I hope that some day I will find some use for it but as it stands right now I don't think I'll even be adding it to my template.


There are already a number of patches I've heard from Ark 5 that I'm pretty sure I'll be using. They don't yet add up to anything coherent. But then again, I've only ever rarely used the Arks as libraries. Mostly, I've used patches to supplement—quite a lot from Arks 1 and 2, very little from Ark 3, though coming back to it now after several years, I can see where I can get more out of it—though its atonal material is still not made of the complexes that I favor. Still, each of the first four Arks had a distinct flavor, and I don't sense that yet with Ark 5. What Ark 5 most reminds me of is Symphonic Sphere, but for loud stuff instead of the soft delicate sounds of SS...




tim727 said:


> By the way, when messing around with Ark 5 today SINE crashed like 3 times. I know that everyone has different machine setups and such but that's another thing that makes me glad I got the Kontakt version of Ark 4. Since it does seem like I'll be using that library a ton it would have been a shame if it were crashing the player every 5 minutes.


Ark 5 seems to be causing quite a lot of issues, especially the chords patches. I haven't had any issues with Arks 3 or 4 in Sine (other than the laggy percussion), and the Ark 3 repetitions has the kind of time stretch material that has caused some issues for Sine in the Mains. Arks 1 and 2 have been stable for me since they were released. I'm still on 1.0.7, but it looks like Ark 5 will require an update to 1.0.8, and I'm not sure I want to do that, since I don't know how to revert if the issue turns out to be 1.0.8 rather than Ark 5 itself.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Marsen said:


> So true!
> i'm glad too, having Ark 4 and 3 on Kontakt.
> 
> If we just could argue, it's the port of the old kontakt versions Ark 3+4, like the Berlin Mains, which make problems in Sine, but this seems just not to be the case, as Ark 5, a new Sine only version, is crashing on lot's of system.
> ...


It is strange, yes. Keep in mind though I believe that their support is available as they helped me with something literally on christmas day. 

But yes many people seem to be having issues with Ark 5 crashing their SINE or their DAW. I don't think anyone can dispute at this point that the quality control at OT is a few cards short of a full deck.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Marsen said:


> 1&2


Those really are wonderful libraries. It's too bad that there isn't a Kontakt version of the bundle as well because then I imagine you'd have a pretty easy decision. But I guess the whole purpose of the bundle is to get people on to SINE so that wouldn't have really made any sense ...


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## Marsen (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> but it looks like Ark 5 will require an update to 1.0.8, and I'm not sure I want to do that, since I don't know how to revert if the issue turns out to be 1.0.8 rather than Ark 5 itself.


Can't you just copy the 1.07 Sine app to another named Folder, also copy the Sine 1.07 component into the folder, and replace it (like older kontakt versions), if 1.08 does make problems?


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## Marsen (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> It is strange, yes. Keep in mind though I believe that their support is available as they helped me with something literally on christmas day.
> 
> But yes many people seem to be having issues with Ark 5 crashing their SINE or their DAW. I don't think anyone can dispute at this point that the quality control at OT is a few cards short of a full deck.


So, would you say, Ark 5 crashes are limited to the chords articulations, or more than that?


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

Marsen said:


> So, would you say, Ark 5 crashes are limited to the chords articulations, or more than that?


It's definitely not limited to the chords. I think all of my crashes happened on articulations other than the chords.


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Can't you just copy the 1.07 Sine app to another named Folder, also copy the Sine 1.07 component into the folder, and replace it (like older kontakt versions), if 1.08 does make problems?


Maybe? I’m not sure what if anything Sine installs besides the plug-in and stand-alone.


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## G_Erland (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I've only been playing around with it for a couple hours but I'm pretty sure I will come to feel the same way. At the very least I would say I'm more impressed by it right off the bat then I was by any of the other Arks (which is saying something because I really love Arks 1 and 2).
> 
> By the way, when messing around with Ark 5 today SINE crashed like 3 times. I know that everyone has different machine setups and such but that's another thing that makes me glad I got the Kontakt version of Ark 4. Since it does seem like I'll be using that library a ton it would have been a shame if it were crashing the player every 5 minutes.


Its odd with all this crashing, especially since…well i cant remember the last time i had software reliably crashing (discounting 3D apps quite simply maxing out the machine). I offer these tidbits just in case they might be of interest. I run sine on two very different machines - one is my buildt to order rig, which has been upgraded a lot, and has been through triple bypass once, risen to live again. The other is a low spec Mac, off the shelf. The only recurring things are - on the work pc, if i work on a track for hours and hours, change everything around…(projects with lots of sine) studio one might need a hard stop when i save and close the project. It hangs then, but nothing is lost. On the Mac, the standalone version of sine will report that it didnt close properly sometimes. Thats it here, and those machines couldnt be more different.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 27, 2021)

Would anyone be so kind as to tell me how to stack different patches together in SINE?


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

Mike Fox said:


> Would anyone be so kind as to tell me how to stack different patches together in SINE?


In sine open the patches you want to stack. Then set them to the same midi channel.


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## Evans (Dec 27, 2021)

And then if you want to save it, use the Save/Load Instance functionality (diskette icon, top-right next to your name).


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## Mike Fox (Dec 27, 2021)

Y’all rock! Thanks!


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

Unexpected, but Ark 5 downloaded and is playable in Sine 1.0.7 on my mac on Catalina.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Unexpected, but Ark 5 downloaded and is playable in Sine 1.0.7 on my mac on Catalina.


How are you liking it? Part of me wanted to try to load a patch right now into the project I'm working on but I'm not because I'm worried it'll wreck it.

By the way I have already integrated a couple Ark 4 patches into this project and I can't be happier. I'm using the Tuba/Euphonium/Contrabass staccatos as an accent to add some extra heft on down beats to the already pre-existing Ark 1 tuba bass line. Have also added in a bit of the Ark 4 men choir legato sustain/legato to add some color to the Ark 1 woman's and men's marcato. Wow, that patch is *fantastic*! I'm absolutely baffled by the bad wrap it has gotten on here. I love the detail and the tone is wonderful.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Unexpected, but Ark 5 downloaded and is playable in Sine 1.0.7 on my mac on Catalina.


To my surprise, when I clicked on the logo, I learned that I am using 1.0.7. So I am definitely having trouble with it. Not sure if upgrading to 1.0.8 will help, but I don't think that it could be any worse.

Edit: According to the What's New link on OT's page, 1.0.8 addresses all of the issues I am having.


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> How are you liking it? Part of me wanted to try to load a patch right now into the project I'm working on but I'm not because I'm worried it'll wreck it.
> 
> By the way I have already integrated a couple Ark 4 patches into this project and I can't be happier. I'm using the Tuba/Euphonium/Contrabass staccatos as an accent to add some extra heft on down beats to the already pre-existing Ark 1 tuba bass line. Have also added in a bit of the Ark 4 men choir legato sustain/legato to add some color to the Ark 1 woman's and men's marcato. Wow, that patch is *fantastic*! I'm absolutely baffled by the bad wrap it has gotten on here. I love the detail and the tone is wonderful.


The chords are very neat, though I haven't been able to put it through its paces to see if I have the same issues @Soundbed illustrated in his video. 

Here's a little noodle of the mixed choir over a modified version of the noodle I posted earlier when I was trying to crash Logic.

View attachment Ark 5 Noodle 1.1.mp3


This was done with just two midi tracks, the three "chord" patches all responding to the same midi, and the mixed choir with the "sustain pad" patch also responding to the same midi, so I'm not able to shape individual vocal lines at all, nor control the syllables (or even ensure they align). This sustain pad reminds me a bit of one of the arcs from Insolidus. And the chord patches remind me a bit of some of the more useful phrase loops in the Sonokinetic libraries.


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## Soundbed (Dec 27, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> The chords are very neat, though I haven't been able to put it through its paces to see if I have the same issues @Soundbed illustrated in his video.
> 
> Here's a little noodle of the mixed choir over a modified version of the noodle I posted earlier when I was trying to crash Logic.
> 
> ...


Someone commented on my YouTube video that they were also finding the chords inconsistently timed. I don’t imagine the chords are impossible to work with, but maybe just a bit challenging.


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Someone commented on my YouTube video that they were also finding the chords inconsistently timed. I don’t imagine the chords are impossible to work with, but maybe just a bit challenging.


I haven't yet looked at the timing. My sense is that the chords patch isn't immediately picking up the tempo changes, but I haven't looked at it carefully yet. I have both buttons selected under tempo sync (I think). I also want to try to replicate where they went out of tune in your video.


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## markleake (Dec 27, 2021)

Has anyone tried to manually enter NI product license codes into the SINE player, only to find it tries to verify the code as you are typing the last characters before you can finish it? The software gets all muddled, messes up all the characters, and it becomes impossible to type.

It keeps locking me out because of too many attempts. 

I'm gonna have to type it into a text editor and copy/paste. This is my first real experience of SINE... is not a good experience. Haven't they done any UAT on this software? No one tested manually typing in license codes? Really? 

Edit: After waiting several minutes, I try again in SINE, or on their website, and it just gives me the same error saying I need to wait 1 minutes. I guess I need to contact support to get my old licenses registered. Strange.


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## tim727 (Dec 27, 2021)

markleake said:


> Has anyone tried to manually enter NI product license codes into the SINE player, only to find it tries to verify the code as you are typing the last characters before you can finish it? The software gets all muddled, messes up all the characters, and it becomes impossible to type.
> 
> It keeps locking me out because of too many attempts.
> 
> ...


I had the same thing happen. Just a suggestion: when you contact support supply them with three things in your email: (1) screenshot of serial number of native access, (2) screenshot of serial number from your account page on the Native Instruments website, (3) attachment or screenshot of your invoice for the library. They are going to ask for these things anyway so you might as well supply them in your first email. Also, tell them that you have already tried to enter the serial number in both SINE player and on the OT website. When I contacted them a couple weeks ago to go through this process for Ark 3, we went back and forth like 6 times on this and it was incredibly annoying and time consuming. If you follow my suggestions here you should be able to get the process done much more quickly because they won't have any follow up questions to ask you.


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## markleake (Dec 27, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I had the same thing happen. Just a suggestion: when you contact support supply them with three things in your email: (1) screenshot of serial number of native access, (2) screenshot of serial number from your account page on the Native Instruments website, (3) attachment or screenshot of your invoice for the library. They are going to ask for these things anyway so you might as well supply them in your first email. Also, tell them that you have already tried to enter the serial number in both SINE player and on the OT website. When I contacted them a couple weeks ago to go through this process for Ark 3, we went back and forth like 6 times on this and it was incredibly annoying and time consuming. If you follow my suggestions here you should be able to get the process done much more quickly because they won't have any follow up questions to ask you.


Thanks Tim. Actually I got it to work finally. One of my serial numbers I had wrong, so was my bad.
Their software is not very helpful in trying to enter these codes, wow.


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## markleake (Dec 27, 2021)

Well, didn't expect that... turns out it's cheaper for me to get both Arks 4 and 5 together to complete the bundle, than to just get Ark 4 by itself. 369 euro for both Arks, but 399 euro for only Ark 4.

It still is a fair bit of money... so now I'll have to watch through all the walkthroughs again. I did like the horn/cello combo patch in Ark 5 in one walkthrough, and the string shorts. But trying to justify that amount of money for something that is so eclectic... I'm undecided.


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## jbuhler (Dec 27, 2021)

markleake said:


> Well, didn't expect that... turns out it's cheaper for me to get both Arks 4 and 5 together to complete the bundle, than to just get Ark 4 by itself. 369 euro for both Arks, but 399 euro for only Ark 4.
> 
> It still is a fair bit of money... so now I'll have to watch through all the walkthroughs again. I did like the horn/cello combo patch in Ark 5 in one walkthrough, and the string shorts. But trying to justify that amount of money for something that is so eclectic... I'm undecided.


I just got Ark 4 after having passed on it during introduction and I have to say it’s wonderful, well worth the 369€. 

Ark 5 has some useful combinations and the chords, which might seem gimmicky but so far seems quite useful for those hard to render blurry inner parts. The string shorts are very good. The choir has some good bits. The mellow brass has a nice sound. I haven’t gone through all of Ark 5 yet but there is a lot of good stuff even if the principle organizing the library isn’t especially clear. So thinking of it as a bonus for buying Ark 4, Ark 5 is a very nice incentive. And the two libraries for 369€ is a good bargain. (If you have an EDU discount the price will actually be 333€.)


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## markleake (Dec 28, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I just got Ark 4 after having passed on it during introduction and I have to say it’s wonderful, well worth the 369€.
> 
> Ark 5 has some useful combinations and the chords, which might seem gimmicky but so far seems quite useful for those hard to render blurry inner parts. The string shorts are very good. The choir has some good bits. The mellow brass has a nice sound. I haven’t gone through all of Ark 5 yet but there is a lot of good stuff even if the principle organizing the library isn’t especially clear. So thinking of it as a bonus for buying Ark 4, Ark 5 is a very nice incentive. And the two libraries for 369€ is a good bargain. (If you have an EDU discount the price will actually be 333€.)


Thanks. Yes, the mellow brass does sound useful to me. I'm less interested in the choirs, I probably have enough of that already covered.

It's been a long time since I looked at Ark 4, I will go listen to some demos & walkthroughs. It seems like that Ark may be the more useful one based on your comments... let's see.

The problem I have with Ark 5 so far is it doesn't seem to have much in it I can't already do with other libraries, especially because some of the combo instruments in Ark 5 don't really stand out as a sound I like. A few of the combos, yes, but some of them, no, not so good.


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2021)

markleake said:


> Thanks. Yes, the mellow brass does sound useful to me. I'm less interested in the choirs, I probably have enough of that already covered.
> 
> It's been a long time since I looked at Ark 4, I will go listen to some demos & walkthroughs. It seems like that Ark may be the more useful one based on your comments... let's see.
> 
> The problem I have with Ark 5 so far is it doesn't seem to have much in it I can't already do with other libraries, especially because some of the combo instruments in Ark 5 don't really stand out as a sound I like. A few of the combos, yes, but some of them, no, not so good.


I was just in the same boat as you. I was considering three options: (1) Just get Ark 4 (on Kontakt) for 400 euros, (2) Get the bundle for 369 euros to get both Ark 4 (SINE) and Ark 5, (3) Get Ark 4 (Kontakt) for 400 euros and then complete the bundle for 166 euros to get Ark 5 for a total price of 566 euros between them. I ended up going with option (3), which would probably seem crazy to most people ... and maybe it is ... but I had enough concerns about SINE personally that I wanted to make sure I got the Kontakt version. I don't regret my decision, especially after seeing that Ark 5 is repeatedly crashing SINE, making the library more or less unusable for me right now (not that I was super impressed with it off the bat anyway, because I really really wasn't).

I won't comment much on the whole SINE vs Kontakt thing, but I will say that as long as you're not put off by the idea of the interesting instrument combos, Ark 4 is an absolutely *marvelous* library. I don't remember the last time I was so impressed with something on first play. In fact, maybe I've never been so impressed with something on first play.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Dec 28, 2021)

I only got two instruments from MA5 (High Woodwinds and the Violas/Horns/Winds combo) and indeed, the chords - as marvellous as they are - are a bit challenging to use because of the timing. I don't use the "lock to beat" function, which doesn't help, and sometimes manually reset the MIDI note in the middle of a phrase (like every two bars) so it cancels the timing drifting out over time. Had the exact same issue for ages with the MA3 tempo synced stuff in Kontakt, so nothing really new here! 

I'm also hearing a tuning issue in the High Woodwinds chords and will send an email about this, I guess it shouldn't be too complicated to give the problematic samples a bit of Melodyne magic.


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## kgdrum (Dec 28, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I was just in the same boat as you. I was considering three options: (1) Just get Ark 4 (on Kontakt) for 400 euros, (2) Get the bundle for 369 euros to get both Ark 4 (SINE) and Ark 5, (3) Get Ark 4 (Kontakt) for 400 euros and then complete the bundle for 166 euros to get Ark 5 for a total price of 566 euros between them. I ended up going with option (3), which would probably seem crazy to most people ... and maybe it is ... but I had enough concerns about SINE personally that I wanted to make sure I got the Kontakt version. I don't regret my decision, especially after seeing that Ark 5 is repeatedly crashing SINE, making the library more or less unusable for me right now (not that I was super impressed with it off the bat anyway, because I really really wasn't).
> 
> I won't comment much on the whole SINE vs Kontakt thing, but I will say that as long as you're not put off by the idea of the interesting instrument combos, Ark 4 is an absolutely *marvelous* library. I don't remember the last time I was so impressed with something on first play. In fact, maybe I've never been so impressed with something on first play.




Every OT purchase i have made the last few years that had the choice of SINE or Kontakt knowing i’d have pay more later if I ever wanted to update the library to SINE.
I still always went with Kontakt and I’m sure enough users did as well prompting OT to try releasing Ark5 as a SINE only product with an inexpensive bundle upgrade path to stop the cycle and get more users to move away from Kontakt and embrace SINE.


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## Evans (Dec 28, 2021)

Is this new? A re-upload?


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## Germain B (Dec 28, 2021)

Evans said:


> Is this new? A re-upload?


Re-upload. There was an editing mistake in the first one.


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2021)

kgdrum said:


> Every OT purchase i have made the last few years that had the choice of SINE or Kontakt knowing i’d have pay more later if I ever wanted to update the library to SINE.
> I still always went with Kontakt and I’m sure enough users did as well prompting OT to try releasing Ark5 as a SINE only product with an inexpensive bundle upgrade path to stop the cycle and get more users to move away from Kontakt and embrace SINE.



Glad to know I'm not the only one. The more I use SINE the less I like it to be honest. I'm glad I got Ark 4 on Kontakt. I'm going to use the hell out of this lib and having it on Kontakt gives me piece of mind. (Also I actually have access to it on SINE as well since I bought the Ark bundle after getting Ark 4 on Kontakt, so in case there are any improvements for Ark 4 in SINE I can always take advantage of those if I want).


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

tim727 said:


> I don't regret my decision, especially after seeing that Ark 5 is repeatedly crashing SINE, making the library more or less unusable for me right now (not that I was super impressed with it off the bat anyway, because I really really wasn't).


I’ve been diligently trying to crash Sine with Ark 5 but so far no luck. I do have timing issues with chords but I’ve introduced tempo changes with them and haven’t had issues beyond the timing. I haven’t yet been able to test the tuning issues @Soundbed identified.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 28, 2021)

Insofar as I can tell, updating to 1.0.8 solved my crashing problems. I had just updated Sine to be able to run the Mains at Thanksgiving, and I never received any notification that there was a new update. I’m not sure how you’re supposed to know that there’s an update. Sine doesn’t seem to tell you.


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> Insofar as I can tell, updating to 1.0.8 solved my crashing problems. I had just updated Sine to be able to run the Mains at Thanksgiving, and I never received any notification that there was a new update. I’m not sure how you’re supposed to know that there’s an update. Sine doesn’t seem to tell you.


Normally Sine will tell you if you need to upgrade. Generally I learn of a new version when I get a new library not supported by the version of Sine I’m running. I was surprised that I was able to download and run the Arks without upgrading.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 28, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Normally Sine will tell you if you need to upgrade. Generally I learn of a new version when I get a new library not supported by the version of Sine I’m running. I was surprised that I was able to download and run the Arks without upgrading.


I had no notice in Sine, and the really odd thing is that I have been communicating with OT techsupport. Why in the world didn't those people say, "Hey, did you upgrade Sine?" Looking back at my history, I see that I downloaded the Sine upgrade on Nov 18, but that was 1.0.6 not 1.0.7. So I don't even know how 1.0.7 got on my system, but that is what I was running yesterday.

How/where does Sine notifiy you if there is an upgrade?


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I had no notice in Sine, and the really odd thing is that I have been communicating with OT techsupport. Why in the world didn't those people say, "Hey, did you upgrade Sine?" Looking back at my history, I see that I downloaded the Sine upgrade on Nov 18, but that was 1.0.6 not 1.0.7. So I don't even know how 1.0.7 got on my system, but that is what I was running yesterday.
> 
> How/where does Sine notifiy you if there is an upgrade?


I didn’t have any notice this time either. I only learned about it from VI-C. In fact I’m still on 1.0.7. But for whatever reason I haven’t had any issues yet.

ETA: I don’t remember exactly. I think Sine tells me when I try to download that I need to update Sine before I can download the library.


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## Gensaii (Dec 28, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Glad to know I'm not the only one. The more I use SINE the less I like it to be honest. I'm glad I got Ark 4 on Kontakt. I'm going to use the hell out of this lib and having it on Kontakt gives me piece of mind. (Also I actually have access to it on SINE as well since I bought the Ark bundle after getting Ark 4 on Kontakt, so in case there are any improvements for Ark 4 in SINE I can always take advantage of those if I want).


I followed suit where 4 is concerned cause I wanted to be sure I got powerlegato with no issues. Already had Ark 1 so I didn't mind 2 and 3 being SINE only. Zero regrets cause those sounds are amazing.

That said I just wanna say this, this wasn't good on OT's part. Not to regurgitate what's already been said countless times but I can't say I enjoyed the dilemma. A little communication from OT with some reassurance regarding the concerns surrounding SINE could've helped many people at least. Also track record..

Either way I hope everyone's happy with their choices! Happy composing and new year everyone!


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I got Berlin Woodwinds Revive in Kontakt and then paid extra to get the Sine version too. Specifically for that library, I saw people say that some things sounded better in the Kontakt version while other things sounded better in the Sine version. But basically I really wanted the lib in Kontakt in case it was to be discontinued. Too many people are reporting problems with Sine, so I figured it would be safest to have the Kontakt version too.


I think you made the right move. When they ported the mains, Berlin Brass wasn't the only one with issues and in fact much of what I heard from BWW sounded just as bad. Out of curiosity, have you yet had a chance to compare the two versions?



jbuhler said:


> I’ve been diligently trying to crash Sine with Ark 5 but so far no luck. I do have timing issues with chords but I’ve introduced tempo changes with them and haven’t had issues beyond the timing. I haven’t yet been able to test the tuning issues @Soundbed identified.


Interesting. It definitely does seem to differ depending on every individual's unique setup, but also it does seem to have a lot of stability issues as a whole since complaints of crashing seem very common. That said, I think I might have found a workaround for my personal crashing issue. It seems that the problem only happens when I manually drag an articulation from the browser over to the thing on the right. If I instead double click on the articulation in the browser it seems to not cause issues. Or at least it hasn't yet. Perhaps I haven't given it enough time yet though, we'll see. I may also need to check what version of SINE I have. I only got SINE a few weeks ago but it seems that there has been an update maybe? I'll need to check.


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2021)

Gensaii said:


> I followed suit where 4 is concerned cause I wanted to be sure I got powerlegato with no issues. Already had Ark 1 so I didn't mind 2 and 3 being SINE only. Zero regrets cause those sounds are amazing.
> 
> That said I just wanna say this, this wasn't good on OT's part. Not to regurgitate what's already been said countless times but I can't say I enjoyed the dilemma. A little communication from OT with some reassurance regarding the concerns surrounding SINE could've helped many people at least. Also track record..
> 
> Either way I hope everyone's happy with their choices! Happy composing and new year everyone!


I think you made the right move. For me getting the lib on Kontakt felt almost like getting insurance. I was paying more and perhaps it won't end up having been needed ... but it does give me peace of mind. And it certainly helps that I am blown away by the lib. If my reaction to the lib had been negative for some reason then surely I would have regretted my decision, but my reaction was extremely positive so I really can't complain!


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I got Berlin Woodwinds Revive in Kontakt and then paid extra to get the Sine version too. Specifically for that library, I saw people say that some things sounded better in the Kontakt version while other things sounded better in the Sine version. But basically I really wanted the lib in Kontakt in case it was to be discontinued. Too many people are reporting problems with Sine, so I figured it would be safest to have the Kontakt version too.


Do you still get the legacy instruments when you buy the Kontakt version?


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 28, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Interesting. It definitely does seem to differ depending on every individual's unique setup, but also it does seem to have a lot of stability issues as a whole since complaints of crashing seem very common. That said, I think I might have found a workaround for my personal crashing issue. It seems that the problem only happens when I manually drag an articulation from the browser over to the thing on the right. If I instead double click on the articulation in the browser it seems to not cause issues. Or at least it hasn't yet. Perhaps I haven't given it enough time yet though, we'll see. I may also need to check what version of SINE I have. I only got SINE a few weeks ago but it seems that there has been an update maybe? I'll need to check.


I definately had lots of crashing issues when I was dragging instruments. I built an entire template without that happening since upgrading to 1.0.8, but it was a huge problem before I upgraded. Fingers crossed that the problem is solved.


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I had no notice in Sine, and the really odd thing is that I have been communicating with OT techsupport. Why in the world didn't those people say, "Hey, did you upgrade Sine?" Looking back at my history, I see that I downloaded the Sine upgrade on Nov 18, but that was 1.0.6 not 1.0.7. So I don't even know how 1.0.7 got on my system, but that is what I was running yesterday.
> 
> How/where does Sine notifiy you if there is an upgrade?


So I just checked and it looks like I have 1.0.7. What's the appropriate way to upgrade to the next version? Do I just redownload SINE from the OT website or is there some other easier way to update it?


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

tim727 said:


> So I just checked and it looks like I have 1.0.7. What's the appropriate way to upgrade to the next version? To I just redownload SINE from the OT website or is there some other easier way to update it?


As far as I'm aware, you download and reinstall.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 28, 2021)

tim727 said:


> So I just checked and it looks like I have 1.0.7. What's the appropriate way to upgrade to the next version? To I just redownload SINE from the OT website or is there some other easier way to update it?


I just clicked on Get Sine on OT's website and installed it.


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## tim727 (Dec 28, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> As far as I'm aware, you download and reinstall.


Just downloaded and stress tested it. At first I thought it was ok because it held up for the first 15 or so loads ... but then it crashed. Oh well ...


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Just downloaded and stress tested it. At first I thought it was ok because it held up for the first 15 or so loads ... but then it crashed. Oh well ...


Sorry to hear this. I had bad problems with Sine in the early days. Now I just have sporadic issues of Sine hanging projects on start up. That's a bit of a pain but manageable. What's odd is how irregular it all is.


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## emilio_n (Dec 28, 2021)

I am all the Christmas time thinking about completing my ARK collection (I have 1 and 2 already on Sine) and buying the Berlin series. (I have Special Bows and first chairs already)
I have an EDU discount so even is a great investment, buying with the bundles looks like a good deal but...

I love the sound of OT, I like Sine but lately, I find a big problem with how OT manage their communications, bugfixes, and even their documentation or educational content about how to use their libraries. I am thinking that sound and content are just one factor to go all-in on the OT ecosystem.

At the same time, I am checking the VSL Synchron series. I only have one of their pianos but the Synchron Player, all the documentation, and their communication look much more trusty than OT. 

I think the people behind OT are really nice and professional but I am not sure if they are missing some part of the business giving more security to their customers. Bugfixes and a roadmap of what will they do with their flagship orchestra (and the libraries still only on Kontakt) will be nice. For instance, What happened with the lost functionalities on ARK like the multis on ARK3?

VSL path is much more expensive but their Quality check process is day and night. OT is maybe one of the companies with more cracks and strange sounds in the background. I can live with this, but I am not comfortable with other bugs reported for a lot of users.

I am quite a fanboy of OT but their lack of communication and all the bad comments in the forum in the last weeks makes me look to other alternatives... :-(


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

Ark 5: Testing the run legato and the dynamic layers of the string shorts with a noodle. Order: (1) string quartet, (2) strings high and low, (3) high strings large and string orchestra (low strings), (4) string orchestra and quartet. The high strings large only has cluster stabs no proper shorts, hence its more raucous interpretation.

This is all default mics out of the box, no reverb. A bit of limiting on the main bus is the only processing.


View attachment Ark 5 Noodle 2.0.mp3


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## Casiquire (Dec 28, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Do you still get the legacy instruments when you buy the Kontakt version?


If you get the Kontakt one specifically, i believe so. I'd check with support first though just in case


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## jbuhler (Dec 28, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> If you get the Kontakt one specifically, i believe so. I'd check with support first though just in case


It seems to me in this particular case that buying the Kontakt version and then paying the upgrade fee to Sine would be worth it if Berlin WWs do come with the legacy instruments. Because that's a lot of still useful content.


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## Casiquire (Dec 28, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> It seems to me in this particular case that buying the Kontakt version and then paying the upgrade fee to Sine would be worth it if Berlin WWs do come with the legacy instruments. Because that's a lot of still useful content.


I agree, but i think it's more interesting to people who started off with it. I started off years later with Revive and never really reach for the legacy patches in context. Maybe i just don't know what I'm missing


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## Braveheart (Dec 29, 2021)

Concerning the SINE issues, like other softwares, many configurations may lead to various results. And one thing to consider is that those having issues are more likely to post about it, and sometimes many posts, which may give the impression of a widespread problem. It could be the case, but maybe not as much as it looks like.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 29, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> Concerning the SINE issues, like other softwares, many configurations may lead to various results. And one thing to consider is that those having issues are more likely to post about it, and sometimes many posts, which may give the impression of a widespread problem. It could be the case, but maybe not as much as it looks like.



Whilst this is true to a certain extent, I think there is a clear problem with stability with SINE. These libraries aren't like a computer game or Microsoft Office product consumed by millions. With those, even a vocal few hundred or thousand with issues would be nothing. 

The fact that there are so many on this forum that have had stability issues with SINE though speaks volumes. This isn't just the odd person with an issue, it's clearly quite widespread.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

Braveheart said:


> Concerning the SINE issues, like other softwares, many configurations may lead to various results. And one thing to consider is that those having issues are more likely to post about it, and sometimes many posts, which may give the impression of a widespread problem. It could be the case, but maybe not as much as it looks like.


To some extent. QC issues are widespread. Generally these issues do not incapacitate a library because there’s enough redundancy in the library that the issues can be worked around. And I often wish more of the conversation was about how to get the best out of the libraries. But the issues are annoying and OT is slow to fix things. OT still doesn’t seem to have a plan for regular library maintenance so any issue you find is likely to remain unfixed for a long time, if it’s ever fixed. I just presume at this point nothing will be fixed and make that part of my calculations.

I don’t think Sine is especially well designed. Kontakt isn’t either, at least not for how libraries currently work. And Capsule regularly drove me nuts. I prefer Sine but many of the design choices are maddening. Beyond that Sine crashes or hangs on many systems. I do think Sine has gotten more stable over time but problems continue for many.

OT’s libraries are also frequently stunning in terms of sound and so for me well worth the hassle and company indifference to maintenance. But if there is one change in company management that I’d like to see it’s resources committed to regular maintenance. Like committing to each library getting fixes at least once a year.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> To some extent. QC issues are widespread. Generally these issues do not incapacitate a library because there’s enough redundancy in the library that the issues can be worked around. And I often wish more of the conversation was about how to get the best out of the libraries. But the issues are annoying and OT is slow to fix things. OT still doesn’t seem to have a plan for regular library maintenance so any issue you find is likely to remain unfixed for a long time, if it’s ever fixed. I just presume at this point nothing will be fixed and make that part of my calculations.
> 
> I don’t think Sine is especially well designed. Kontakt isn’t either, at least not for how libraries currently work. And Capsule regularly drove me nuts. I prefer Sine but many of the design choices are maddening. Beyond that Sine crashes or hangs on many systems. I do think Sine has gotten more stable over time but problems continue for many.
> 
> OT’s libraries are also frequently stunning in terms of sound and so for me well worth the hassle and company indifference to maintenance. But if there is one change in company management that I’d like to see it’s resources committed to regular maintenance. Like committing to each library getting fixes at least once a year.



Yeh they sound great, but that makes it even more frustrating.

If it wasn't for SINE, I likely would have bought Berlin brass in the Berlin mains sale, and this entire Ark bundle.

However due to my experience with SINE , I just can't risk that amount of money on something that might just end up driving me round the bend and crashing all my composing sessions. I think stability is one of the most important aspects to get right if you are going to introduce a new bespoke player.

This is further compounded by the fact that they don't allow resale as well.

If their libraries weren't effectively discontinued on kontakt , and they allowed resale, OT would have had a lot of money off me this nov/Dec.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 29, 2021)

I have been smitten by the OT sound for quite a while, but I am really starting to regret my crush. A year ago, I jumped on the sale and picked up BS and BWW. I then spent the year regretting not buying them all, but only because I also picked up BSS, and I loved the way it worked in Sine. I was instantly disappointed in BS and BWW because of Capsule, but I thought they would be ported over to Sine and everything would be hunky-dory.

If I had really been paying attention to what was happening, however, I might have shown a bit more restraint. I picked up BWW Soloists, SB, and BFC. SB works nicely, but the other two are sorely lacking. I should have suspected that a less than wonderful port would be a real possibility with the Mains. But I kept thinking that they were flagships. Of course they would make them work, wouldn't they?

Unfortunately, there is no immediate money in maintenance, but in the long run, this is going to bite them in the ass. They just released four huge ports and a new library in a broken player and then went on vacation for two weeks. It took 8-10 months for them to address the mic merge problem in BSS, and there has been no attention at all to the other ports. I think the future with this company looks quite grim. There is an indifference and arrogance there toward their customers that can't be overcome. I suppose that they will eventually stabilize Sine, but I wouldn't count on any other upkeep in these libraries. You get what you get, and you can like it or lump it.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

Eptesicus said:


> Yeh they sound great, but that makes it even more frustrating.
> 
> If it wasn't for SINE, I likely would have bought Berlin brass in the Berlin mains sale, and this entire Ark bundle.
> 
> ...


Well, OT isn’t good about maintaining one line of libraries so they’d hardly do better at two. So I can see why they’d want to move everything to Sine. And Sine does offer a lot of useful capability like allowing you to only download the mics and instruments you want and buying individual instruments. Aspects of the legato handling are also very nice and neatly extend capabilities that were developed for Capsule. And Sine instruments have gotten some maintenance unlike the Kontakt instruments. 

Kontakt also has broken plenty of instruments over the years, and many Kontakt instruments, including OT’s, are plagued by hanging notes and tempo drift, among other things. Tempo synced Kontakt instruments also dislike tempo changes and ramps. The point isn’t that Sine is perfect on these matters but only that the discussion is often framed as though Kontakt didn’t have any issues. With Kontakt player libraries more and more locked down, they often no longer even offer the advantage of DIY fixes.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Well, OT isn’t good about maintaining one line of libraries so they’d hardly do better at two. So I can see why they’d want to move everything to Sine. And Sine does offer a lot of useful capability like allowing you to only download the mics and instruments you want and buying individual instruments. Aspects of the legato handling are also very nice and neatly extend capabilities that were developed for Capsule. And Sine instruments have gotten some maintenance unlike the Kontakt instruments.
> 
> Kontakt also has broken plenty of instruments over the years, and many Kontakt instruments, including OT’s, are plagued by hanging notes and tempo drift, among other things. Tempo synced Kontakt instruments also dislike tempo changes and ramps. The point isn’t that Sine is perfect on these matters but only that the discussion is often framed as though Kontakt didn’t have any issues. With Kontakt player libraries more and more locked down, they often no longer even offer the advantage of DIY fixes.


Oh i know Kontakt has its far share of issues. But small known annoyances can be lived with.

Crashing and instability cannot be lived with (not for me anyway), and should be one of the most important focuses of a developer creating a supposedly professional working tool.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 29, 2021)

Well, it took EW to Play 5 to get a working version of their player. I kind of expect it to take a while for this to be good. I haven't had too many crashes yet, but I've also been running it through VE Pro, for the most part. And I tend to use the Kontakt versions when I have them. They do need to do something about the timing issues before they port Time Macro and Micro, since those both require timing to work.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> They just released four huge ports and a new library in a broken player and then went on vacation for two weeks. It took 8-10 months for them to address the mic merge problem in BSS, and there has been no attention at all to the other ports.


Besides the Mains, they also ported Arks 3 and 4 and released Andea and Ark 5. That’s a lot of new Sine product to oversee and manage and putting it all on the market when you know the majority of your company is going on extended vacation seems an odd management decision, just like not devoting resources to regular maintenance. 

Of the new products I have BS and the three Arks. I would say the three ports (BS, Arks 3 and 4) are all at least fair. They are certainly better than the Berlin Woodwind Soloists and the First Chairs. If they receive timely updates I would say these have been handled fine, and most of the issues I have with these three are products of current limitations of Sine. (I’ve tested BS fairly extensively but have only had a few days with the Arks, and I haven’t yet done anything but noodle with them so I may revise this assessment.) 

Ark 5 is a new product and some of its new functionality (chords) isn’t working perfectly. The timing issues will likely not present an intractable problem in context as the chords are designed to create accompanimental washes in the background so the lack of precision in timing may indeed sometimes even be useful. The tuning issues on some of the woodwind patterns is a bug, and I presume this will be fixed. For a new product I expect these kind of things and they don’t bother me unless they aren’t fixed in a timely manner. I’ve also played with the strings and the choirs and I haven’t yet encountered any bugs, though there are many strange design choices with the library in terms of what articulations OT chose to include for each instrument. I still don’t get the concept of Ark 5 and I suspect there really isn’t a concept to be found, likely one reason they decided to end the series. The analogy to Symphonic Sphere for the Arks is still the best I can come up with. Be that as it may, the quality of the Sine implementation seems fair for a new product. 

So far, then, the ports of the Arks and the new Ark seem to be better than the Mains, since the ports of both the brass and woodwinds Mains have significant issues. Whether that’s because the Mains are harder and more complicated or it’s just easier to port something like the Arks due to their more heterogeneous character is difficult to say. 

Still, it seems a very odd choice to do so much at once, like they needed to hit some externally imposed deadline of having this all out by the end of the year. I still think they had some major issue with the Sine team and that’s what delayed the fixes on Sine for much of the year.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 29, 2021)

@jbuhler at this point, I am probably suffering from shellshock after days and days of Sine crashing. I am still stunned that OT techsupport never told me to upgrade Sine and still amazed that there was no notification of the new version. As far as I can tell, it is more or less working now, but I have had to lay it aside for a while just for sanity. I can't quite wrap my mind around the decisions OT has made. I would probably be less concerned if I had faith that they would address the issues, but their track record is what it is. I have dabbled with this long enough. I just have to write some music now and forget about libraries for a while.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> @jbuhler at this point, I am probably suffering from shellshock after days and days of Sine crashing. I am still stunned that OT techsupport never told me to upgrade Sine and still amazed that there was no notification of the new version. As far as I can tell, it is more or less working now, but I have had to lay it aside for a while just for sanity. I can't quite wrap my mind around the decisions OT has made. I would probably be less concerned if I had faith that they would address the issues, but their track record is what it is. I have dabbled with this long enough. I just have to write some music now and forget about libraries for a while.


I definitely understand. i find much of what OT does to be perplexing from a business standpoint. But also Sine has lots of weirdness from a musical standpoint, in the sense that I have difficulty reverse engineering how they think it should be used.


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## Casiquire (Dec 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I definitely understand. i find much of what OT does to be perplexing from a business standpoint. But also Sine has lots of weirdness from a musical standpoint, in the sense that I have difficulty reverse engineering how they think it should be used.


I feel the same way. I keep waffling back and forth from SINE to Kontakt. I truly don't think SINE sounds "worse" at all. What keeps pulling me back to kontakt is really just RAM at this point. The SINE compression does wonders, and I'm using SINE for percussion without issue. But for full legato patches it's just taking up too much RAM compared to the purge functions in kontakt.


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## Germain B (Dec 29, 2021)

I'm hoping for the beginning of new era with the Metropolis Orc Series.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 29, 2021)

I really think they planned to release the Berlin series last year after the 50% off sale, but something didn't work. Could have been similar issues to the ones they had with BSS. I do notice they are releasing a lot more products since they created Sine. It used to be only one or two per year. I don't know if this is because it is easier to release with their own player and not having to deal with NI or if they have to in order to support the Sine player costs, especially if they outsource the programming. 

Or maybe they are just trying to compete with 8Dio and Spitfire.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 29, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Or maybe they are just trying to compete with 8Dio and Spitfire.


I think they want to be like Spitfire. It is pretty obvious with their "keynotes" which started only after Spitfire, releasing more textural libraries, starting to publish more "educational tutorials", etc. Which is fair because Spitfire set the bar for sample development companies in terms of their scope, marketing success, etc. I just think OT would be better off focusing on what they do well and not trying to be a second-class Spitfire - they don't have the same skills / marketing chops.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I feel the same way. I keep waffling back and forth from SINE to Kontakt. I truly don't think SINE sounds "worse" at all. What keeps pulling me back to kontakt is really just RAM at this point. The SINE compression does wonders, and I'm using SINE for percussion without issue. But for full legato patches it's just taking up too much RAM compared to the purge functions in kontakt.


I also use the legato patches from Kontakt more than occasionally, but it has nothing to do with either sound or RAM. It's almost entirely because the GUI feedback. It's one thing I wish Sine did better: give me something better than a black on black representation of the modwheel setting!


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## tim727 (Dec 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I definitely understand. i find much of what OT does to be perplexing from a business standpoint. But also Sine has lots of weirdness from a musical standpoint, in the sense that I have difficulty reverse engineering how they think it should be used.


Perplexing is probably putting it lightly! Beyond some of their business practices though, the more I use SINE the more I am noticing a fundamental difference in the _sound_ that I find displeasing. As I play through patches on the earlier Arks (in Kontakt) and then play through patches on Ark 5 ... something just sounds fundamentally different across the board in SINE, and I know that everyone has different preferences, but my preference for the sound itself is 100% Kontakt. As such, to me SINE at this point has almost no positives to offer, but a whole lot of negatives.


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## Casiquire (Dec 29, 2021)

I'm less bothered by that


jbuhler said:


> I also use the legato patches from Kontakt more than occasionally, but it has nothing to do with either sound or RAM. It's almost entirely because the GUI feedback. It's one thing I wish Sine did better: give me something better than a black on black representation of the modwheel setting!


I'm less bothered by that, i don't really need to check things like that too often. The fact that the sound and stability aren't my main issues tells me that some day i might make the full switch, but we're not there yet.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I just think OT would be better off focusing on what they do well and not trying to be a second-class Spitfire - they don't have the same skills / marketing chops.


I don't know. The marketing campaigns for the Arks up until this one were pretty darned impressive. I do think things change when you start dropping a new product every month, and even if you can be very excited about every new product, everything can't be a game changer. (My sense is that SF is starting to learn this lesson, but old habits die as hard as an 8dio sale.) And dropping eight large Sine libraries, two of them brand new, in the span of a month is just exhausting for everyone involved.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> I'm less bothered by that
> I'm less bothered by that, i don't really need to check things like that too often. The fact that the sound and stability aren't my main issues tells me that some day i might make the full switch, but we're not there yet.


I wish there was a representation of the expression fader too. It's so helpful in debugging. Is the plugin receiving my midi input?


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I wish there was a representation of the expression fader too. It's so helpful in debugging. Is the plugin receiving my midi input?


100% agree - when programming especially and fine tuning CC data, it is important to have that visual feedback in the sample player to understand if you are triggering what you are trying to trigger (or if something isn't working). SINE's UI design is abysmal in many ways for that - black keyboard with no contrast, unsure where in the legato speed / velocity slider you are (aka when it is triggering different types of legato), inability with polymaps to understand which articulation each part of the map corresponds to (especially when you have the same "articulation name" mapped multiple times), etc.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 29, 2021)

Another absurd UI choice I came across is how they've configured vibrato for strings. Setting the slider to ZERO is full vibrato...and setting it to fully on (127) is ZERO vibrato. No way to change it. Literally the complete opposite of making sense and how every other player is setup. Innovation at its finest.


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

Has anyone downloaded/installed Metropolis Ark 3 (SINE) without any issues using the 'Download', not the 'Detail' option button, to download the full library on Windows 10 ? 

Thanks.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Another absurd UI choice I came across is how they've configured vibrato for strings. Setting the slider to ZERO is full vibrato...and setting it to fully on (127) is ZERO vibrato. No way to change it. Literally the complete opposite of making sense and how every other player is setup. Innovation at its finest.


yes, portamento triggered at high velocity instead of low velocity, and you can't reassign it in a sensible way, is another. I mean that's just a convention, and OT can certainly set up their instruments as they see fit, but to make it so that it can't be easily made to conform to the industry convention is just being a jerk to the user.



tim727 said:


> Perplexing is probably putting it lightly! Beyond some of their business practices though, the more I use SINE the more I am noticing a fundamental difference in the _sound_ that I find displeasing. As I play through patches on the earlier Arks (in Kontakt) and then play through patches on Ark 5 ... something just sounds fundamentally different across the board in SINE, and I know that everyone has different preferences, but my preference for the sound itself is 100% Kontakt. As such, to me SINE at this point has almost no positives to offer, but a whole lot of negatives.


I agree there's a difference in sound, and as sound I prefer Sine whenever I've set up a little A/B test for myself in terms of the sound of individual notes and short gestures. And of course I think folks can come to the opposite conclusion on this. Indeed I find the difference in sound is quite subtle and overwhelmed by how the library is used. So I often find myself preferring a Kontakt performance because of the performance, not because of the sound. And I've found it quite hard to match performances between Sine and Kontakt due to the differences in how the instruments are scripted. (Again, I generally prefer Sine versions of things, but not nearly as often as with more isolated bits.)

I don't think I'm going to be getting rid of the Kontakt versions any time soon since they give me a reasonably well matched alternative when the Sine instrument is giving me issues. But I do reach for the Sine instruments first.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 29, 2021)

Cant help but feel that OT could have made an absolute heap load more money over the black friday/christmas period if their sale prices included both the kontakt and SINE versions of the libraries that were already in Kontakt.....


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 29, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Or maybe they are just trying to compete with 8Dio and Spitfire.


There’s clearly a good bit of this going on. I mean what was BO other than an attempt to create an OT version of BBCSO? A version that’s more expensive and less functional.



jbuhler said:


> I don't know. The marketing campaigns for the Arks up until this one were pretty darned impressive. I do think things change when you start dropping a new product every month, and even if you can be very excited about every new product, everything can't be a game changer. (My sense is that SF is starting to learn this lesson, but old habits die as hard as an 8dio sale.) And dropping eight large Sine libraries, two of them brand new, in the span of a month is just exhausting for everyone involved.


I do hope Spitfire is learning this lesson because it became such a turn off to me. I don’t even watch their product announcements anymore.

Watching OT flee Kontakt is a bit like watching a woman flee a bad marriage. She doesn’t care what sort of destruction is left in her wake; she just wants out. And maybe relations between OT and NI are bad enough that OT is just jumping ship as quickly as possible. Right now they just want out, and they’ll pick up the pieces later. It’s hard to imagine what’s going on behind the scenes. But from a business perspective, their behavior doesn’t make much sense. You wish they would have taken more time to work on Sine and design the interface before completely abandoning ship, but maybe that just wasn’t an option. Maybe we’ll see them double their efforts to revamp Sine. And maybe I’m just smoking crack.


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## markleake (Dec 29, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Perplexing is probably putting it lightly! Beyond some of their business practices though, the more I use SINE the more I am noticing a fundamental difference in the _sound_ that I find displeasing. As I play through patches on the earlier Arks (in Kontakt) and then play through patches on Ark 5 ... something just sounds fundamentally different across the board in SINE, and I know that everyone has different preferences, but my preference for the sound itself is 100% Kontakt. As such, to me SINE at this point has almost no positives to offer, but a whole lot of negatives.


Interesting you say this, I've noticed this too in the walkthroughs and demos. Up until now I just thought it might be a mixing thing or the mics used, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe just how it's recorded? To my ears the previous Arks (in Kontakt) sound more upfront and pressent, and Ark 5 sounds more compressed (not in a good way). Especially jaring compared to Ark 4. I'm only going off the demos and walkthroughs though.

As a side note, I've had a chance now to listen back through Ark 4 walkthroughs. I really do like what I hear.... seems much more cohesive and useful to me than Ark 5. Also seems to have more content.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

markleake said:


> Interesting you say this, I've noticed this too in the walkthroughs and demos. Up until now I just thought it might be a mixing thing or the mics used, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe just how it's recorded? To my ears the previous Arks (in Kontakt) sound more upfront and pressent, and Ark 5 sounds more compressed (not in a good way). Especially jaring compared to Ark 4. I'm only going off the demos and walkthroughs though.
> 
> As a side note, I've had a chance now to listen back through Ark 4 walkthroughs. I really do like what I hear.... seems much more cohesive and useful to me than Ark 5. Also seems to have more content.


I find the recordings of Ark 3 sound off in both Kontakt and Sine versions. I think they sound better in Sine but I’m still bothered by them. It’s one reason I rarely used Ark 3. I have Ark 4 only on Sine and it sounds fine. Ark 5 has some issues. I find the quartet and the section strings don’t sound like they are in the same space, at least as the default set up presents them. The content of Ark 5 doesn’t feel cohesive in terms of a concept. Still it has a lot of useful stuff if your goal is to make music staying within the set of Ark libraries. 

Even with a cursory glance at Ark 4 it seems an exceptional library. I’ve been impressed with and inspired by every patch I’ve opened. This seems like a library you can compose with staying within the library but it also has an abundance of patches for supplementing other libraries and not just the other Arks. I said this before and I’ll repeat it, but I really can’t fathom why I passed in this library when it was released. It must have been the disappointment with Ark 3. I seem to recall OT also was very late in releasing walkthroughs so it was hard to know what you were buying while it was on introductory discount.


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I find the recordings of Ark 3 sound off in both Kontakt and Sine versions. I think they sound better in Sine but I’m still bothered by them. It’s one reason I rarely used Ark 3. I have Ark 4 only on Sine and it sounds fine. Ark 5 has some issues.


reading this makes me think twice about bothering with installing Ark 3. Which has given me a major headache as far installation/download are concerned. Maybe I'm better off not installing it. Would you say Ark 3 is the least popular Ark library ?


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## Flyo (Dec 29, 2021)

With Spitefire and now OT I think they need to start to thinking that sometimes (many) less is more.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 29, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I find the recordings of Ark 3 sound off in both Kontakt and Sine versions. I think they sound better in Sine but I’m still bothered by them. It’s one reason I rarely used Ark 3. I have Ark 4 only on Sine and it sounds fine. Ark 5 has some issues. I find the quartet and the section strings don’t sound like they are in the same space, at least as the default set up presents them. The content of Ark 5 doesn’t feel cohesive in terms of a concept. Still it has a lot of useful stuff if your goal is to make music staying within the set of Ark libraries.
> 
> Even with a cursory glance at Ark 4 it seems an exceptional library. I’ve been impressed with and inspired by every patch I’ve opened. This seems like a library you can compose with staying within the library but it also has an abundance of patches for supplementing other libraries and not just the other Arks. I said this before and I’ll repeat it, but I really can’t fathom why I passed in this library when it was released. It must have been the disappointment with Ark 3. I seem to recall OT also was very late in releasing walkthroughs so it was hard to know what you were buying while it was on introductory discount.



I agree about Ark 4. Sounds really interesting.

To be honest, the only ones that really stand out to me are Ark 2 and 4. This is another reason im not sure about the bundle. Perhaps i will wait till those two are 50% off in a future sale (by which time, SINE will be hopefully more mature).


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## tim727 (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> reading this makes me think twice about bothering with installing Ark 3. Which has given me a major headache as far installation/download are concerned. Maybe I'm better off not installing it. Would you say Ark 3 is the least popular Ark library ?


Perplexingly Ark 4 is actually the least popular, despite being -- in my opinion -- truly exemplary. Ark 3 is the second least popular. That said ... why on earth would you not install it??


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## tim727 (Dec 29, 2021)

markleake said:


> Interesting you say this, I've noticed this too in the walkthroughs and demos. Up until now I just thought it might be a mixing thing or the mics used, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe just how it's recorded? To my ears the previous Arks (in Kontakt) sound more upfront and pressent, and Ark 5 sounds more compressed (not in a good way). Especially jaring compared to Ark 4. I'm only going off the demos and walkthroughs though.
> 
> As a side note, I've had a chance now to listen back through Ark 4 walkthroughs. I really do like what I hear.... seems much more cohesive and useful to me than Ark 5. Also seems to have more content.


I highly doubt it's how it's recorded, because the same type of "compressed" sound can be found in the SINE versions of all the Arks ... and I'm guessing in all the mains as well. Take a look at my egregiously long post from a couple pages back for my in depth thoughts on sound comparisons of Kontakt vs SINE.


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## Mucusman (Dec 29, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Perplexingly Ark 4 is actually the least popular, despite being -- in my opinion -- truly exemplary.


I wouldn't put too much stock in the voting. I chose not to vote since I only own Ark 1 & 2 so far... I doubt that everyone voting has all 5 libraries. 

Likely going to pick up volume 5 before the sale ends... don't think I can justify completing the bundle for about $6500 USD for me.


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> reading this makes me think twice about bothering with installing Ark 3. Which has given me a major headache as far installation/download are concerned. Maybe I'm better off not installing it. Would you say Ark 3 is the least popular Ark library ?


A lot of people love Ark 3, and it has a lot of percussion, which I don’t use much because I have similar percussion that i like better. I should, however, make better use of the repetitions. There was a piece I was working on awhile back that would have benefited from them, I think, but I kind of forgot about them (also the Kontakt version often misfires for me). The Kontakt multis also show how to convert the decrescendos into marcatos and they are surprisingly effective in that form, especially tutti. But I find the expressive range of Ark 3 to be much narrower than 1, 2, and 4. And fewer of the instruments from Ark 3 are effective as supplements the way say the a9 horns from Ark 1 can just be dropped into a regular orchestral template. Most of Ark 1, 2, and 4 instruments can be used just as reasonably “normal” instruments outside the context of the Arks. And that’s generally how I’ve used the Arks. 

As a whole the Arks pull me in a different direction, to the post-Wagnerian world opened by Mahler symphonies, Schoenberg’s Gurrelieder, Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring and extending through works such as Zemlinsky’s Lyric Symphony, Strauss’s Alpine Symphony, and even Ravel’s Daphne and Chloe. But also Huppertz score to Metropolis and, more darkly, Carmina Burana, which the Arks as a whole might be taken as a toolkit for. Somewhere I said that the Arks try to reclaim a moment, an epic expression that is not our contemporary cinematic epic, when Zeppelins stood for the future, but that future refused to appear. There’s something musical to be reclaimed there, but the shadows of history are long and the path is perilous…

Sorry, where was I. Oh, yes, should you install Ark 3? I imagine you’ll find it extremely confining since expressively it’s very much in the domain of the infernal machine, its demonized representation. (Irony that your machine won’t let you install it.) And it’s even more of an ensemble library than the other Arks, which I suspect you’ll chafe against as well. At the same time I think the collector in you will want to install it just to complete the collection. But I suspect it will quickly live next to your BHCT. Ark 5 will likely share that fate too, and you may not like that so many of the Ark 4 instruments are combinations so even that library, which I think is quite inspiring, may find itself there too. I’ll be curious to see if my speculations here are on mark.


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## tim727 (Dec 29, 2021)

Mucusman said:


> I wouldn't put too much stock in the voting. I chose not to vote since I only own Ark 1 & 2 so far... I doubt that everyone voting has all 5 libraries.
> 
> Likely going to pick up volume 5 before the sale ends... don't think I can justify completing the bundle for about $6500 USD for me.


True, not everyone has all the libraries, but that in and of itself is telling. Far fewer people have Arks 3 and 4 and that's because they appeal to a more limited set of people. Or in other words, they are less popular.


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## ansthenia (Dec 29, 2021)

I'm not too concerned about scripting differences between Sine and Kontakt versions; how they handle legato's etc... but reading some people feel the actual sound samples sound slightly inferior in the Sine versions is quite disheartening.

I never heard anyone complain about the sound quality of the Kontakt versions - whatever processing and "cleaning up" OT did to the actual sounds for the Sine versions, they shouldn't have bothered.


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## muziksculp (Dec 29, 2021)

tim727 said:


> Ark 3 is the second least popular. That said ... why on earth would you not install it??


Well, I'm having issues installing Ark 3 (SINE), if there was a fix, or a way to avoid the issues I'm dealing with to install it, I surely will. But it has been a nightmare to install it. 

Do you have Ark 3 ? If Yes, how did you install it, via the 'Download' button, or via the 'Details' button which allows you to select partial mic options to download, instead of the full library at once ?


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## Flyo (Dec 29, 2021)

Man this bundle cost $1000!! Yess good price for each one, but for having such a bad behavior in their player also, updated to sound worse than the originals…😵‍💫 I really like OT and also pay for their libraries but this is inappropriate for the higher high price tag in all their products


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## jbuhler (Dec 29, 2021)

ansthenia said:


> I'm not too concerned about scripting differences between Sine and Kontakt versions; how they handle legato's etc... but reading some people feel the actual sound samples themes sound slightly inferior in the Sine versions is quite disheartening.
> 
> I never heard anyone complain about the sound quality of the Kontakt versions - whatever processing and "cleaning up" OT did to the actual sounds for the Sine versions, they shouldn't have bothered.


I mean, listen for yourself. The differences aren’t that great and the effects of the scripting seem to me far greater. 

There were lots of complaints about the noise in the Kontakt version of Ark 2, because they are generally quiet samples and people were cranking up the gain to the point the noise floor was very audible.


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## tim727 (Dec 29, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Well, I'm having issues installing Ark 3 (SINE), if there was a fix, or a way to avoid the issues I'm dealing with to install it, I surely will. But it has been a nightmare to install it.
> 
> Do you have Ark 3 ? If Yes, how did you install it, via the 'Download' button, or via the 'Details' button which allows you to select partial mic options to download, instead of the full library at once ?


Might I ask what kind of error(s) you're specifically running into? I do have Ark 3 but have the Kontakt version. Every time I've ever downloaded anything on SINE though I always go to the Details button and then select all the mics. Keep in mind that if you hit "Download" although it will download all the instruments at once, I wouldn't really call that the "full" library since it downloads only a subset of the mic positions by default (I believe close and tree or something like that). So with that in mind the only way to really download the "full" library at once is to go to Details and then manually select all the mics positions.


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## AndyP (Dec 29, 2021)

When I use the short strings and legato runs in the same track, I feel like I have to bring the runs forward a bit, otherwise they start slightly delayed.
I have divides the shorts and the runs on 2 tracks and provide the runs with a negative delay of 60 ms it fits somehow better. I find it difficult to use them in the same track as the shorts, especially when quantizing.

How do you do it? Separate tracks for shorts and runs, or do you pull the runs slightly forward in the grid? It also feels easier to set the keyswitches in a separate track and control the runs with cc1.

And it would be nice if I could keep the last note of the runs longer in the sustain.


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## Casiquire (Dec 29, 2021)

AndyP said:


> When I use the short strings and legato runs in the same track, I feel like I have to bring the runs forward a bit, otherwise they start slightly delayed.
> I have divides the shorts and the runs on 2 tracks and provide the runs with a negative delay of 60 ms it fits somehow better. I find it difficult to use them in the same track as the shorts, especially when quantizing.
> 
> How do you do it? Separate tracks for shorts and runs, or do you pull the runs slightly forward in the grid? It also feels easier to set the keyswitches in a separate track and control the runs with cc1.
> ...


Out of curiosity...the runs patch sounds like effectively a short note with legato transitions. Do you still feel like you need to switch between the runs and the shorts, or can the runs patch stand in for the shorts too?


----------



## AndyP (Dec 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Out of curiosity...the runs patch sounds like effectively a short note with legato transitions. Do you still feel like you need to switch between the runs and the shorts, or can the runs patch stand in for the shorts too?


I'll correct my statement about the track delay. in the meantime, I think minus 15 is appropriate.

The runs are shorts in principle (more staccato or very short marcato like), but not really. Ok for the one or other accent, but they are definitely different than the normal shorts. I will probably use the runs as a separate track rather than together with the short articulations in the same track.


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## Casiquire (Dec 29, 2021)

AndyP said:


> I'll correct my statement about the track delay. in the meantime, I think minus 15 is appropriate.
> 
> The runs are shorts in principle, but not really. Ok for the one or other accent, but they are definitely different than the normal shorts. I will probably use the runs as a separate track rather than together with the short articulations in the same track.


Thanks, i was curious how far that could get you. And i am definitely not correcting you 😁


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## AndyP (Dec 29, 2021)

Runs and shorts example.


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## Casiquire (Dec 29, 2021)

AndyP said:


> Runs and shorts example.


Oh wow thanks for doing that. Clears it right up!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 29, 2021)

Anybody run into a strange issue with SINE 1.08 in Cubase where SINE doesn't change articulations when it is supposed to based on keyswitch / expression map? It like gets stuck with one articulation staying on for too long for a few notes before it corrects itself. Even when using standard keyswitch MIDI notes, there's like a delay when switching and a pop (there's a CPU spike when switching too - it goes from 2-3% to 30% for one note) and it takes it a second to figure out what it should be doing.

Lol this software is such a piece of shit.


----------



## AndyP (Dec 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody run into a strange issue with SINE 1.08 in Cubase where SINE doesn't change articulations when it is supposed to based on keyswitch / expression map? It like gets stuck with one articulation staying on for too long for a few notes before it corrects itself.


Yes, it only works sporadically for me. Often the articulation changes too late or not at all. But I've only been testing this with Sine since today.


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## G_Erland (Dec 29, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody run into a strange issue with SINE 1.08 in Cubase where SINE doesn't change articulations when it is supposed to based on keyswitch / expression map? It like gets stuck with one articulation staying on for too long for a few notes before it corrects itself. Even when using standard keyswitch MIDI notes, there's like a delay when switching and a pop (there's a CPU spike when switching too - it goes from 2-3% to 30% for one note) and it takes it a second to figure out what it should be doing.
> 
> Lol this software is such a piece of shit.


What daw is that? Have been setting it up in S1, no issues (that i didnt make myself).


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## Soundbed (Dec 29, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Oh wow thanks for doing that. Clears it right up!


Yeah the runs may be shorts but the shorts are not runs. 😛


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## andyhy (Dec 29, 2021)

For fun just now I loaded Berlin Brass in Kontakt. The clicks and pops and missing notes reminded me why it was unusable but then I only bought it so I would qualify for free port to SINE. What a difference SINE makes. I suspect I'm in the silent majority who are not having problems with the SINE versions of OT libraries because for me it behaves perfectly and has enabled me to fully utilise the Berlin Main Series for the first time. BMS also works well as an external library with Dorico although in practice I mainly use Berlin Orchestra Berklee with Dorico.


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## Gensaii (Dec 30, 2021)

andyhy said:


> for me it behaves perfectly and has enabled me to fully utilise the Berlin Main Series for the first time.


For me it's kinda the opposite. And SINE works fine with me for the most part. But ever since I upgraded my Berlin mains to SINE I have been struggling to use them the way I like to due to how next to useless the Purging fuction is. I'd use the Mic Merge feature but I'd much prefer being able to play with the mic positions on the fly and with no restraint. Kontakt allowed me to do that thanks to purging.

Luckily I'm just about to upgrade my RAM so this is kind of a moot point😅


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## andyhy (Dec 30, 2021)

Gensaii said:


> For me it's kinda the opposite. And SINE works fine with me for the most part. But ever since I upgraded my Berlin mains to SINE I have been struggling to use them the way I like to due to how next to useless the Purging fuction is. I'd use the Mic Merge feature but I'd much prefer being able to play with the mic positions on the fly and with no restraint. Kontakt allowed me to do that thanks to purging.
> 
> Luckily I'm just about to upgrade my RAM so this is kind of a moot point😅


Purging is certainly a function that OT needs to revisit. Perhaps now the focus is on SINE they will respond.


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## G_Erland (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Besides the Mains, they also ported Arks 3 and 4 and released Andea and Ark 5. That’s a lot of new Sine product to oversee and manage and putting it all on the market when you know the majority of your company is going on extended vacation seems an odd management decision, just like not devoting resources to regular maintenance.
> 
> Of the new products I have BS and the three Arks. I would say the three ports (BS, Arks 3 and 4) are all at least fair. They are certainly better than the Berlin Woodwind Soloists and the First Chairs. If they receive timely updates I would say these have been handled fine, and most of the issues I have with these three are products of current limitations of Sine. (I’ve tested BS fairly extensively but have only had a few days with the Arks, and I haven’t yet done anything but noodle with them so I may revise this assessment.)
> 
> ...


Id be interested in your thoughts on 1st chairs.


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## G_Erland (Dec 30, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> What daw is that? Have been setting it up in S1, no issues (that i didnt make myself).


Sorry for some reason i didnt see cubase.


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## Casiquire (Dec 30, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Yeah the runs may be shorts but the shorts are not runs. 😛


Well i figured as much, i just thought you might be able to play runs disconnected and get convincing shorts, but the actual shorts are significantly better. Just trying to get a feel for how much stitching together you need to do


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

G_Erland said:


> Id be interested in your thoughts on 1st chairs.


The First Chairs are better in Sine than the woodwind soloists but I wouldn’t call them exceptional. I can use them and they sound pretty good for the intended purpose of being first chairs of Berlin Strings, where most of the issues are masked. But they don’t work nearly as well as, say, the SF solo strings in a solo or chamber capacity, though the FCs do generally work as spot soloists in an orchestral context. I find the lack of control over vibrato, even a simple on/off, makes them hard to use for chamber music. (I find the simple on/off of the SF solo strings is surprisingly effective—not perfect, but better than the alternatives for recorded (as opposed to modeled) solo strings.) 

The legato is not terribly expressive but rewards rather deliberate lyrical lines, and I find you need to get the tempo right for it to sound properly. The portamento varies from fair to good (but it’s unevenness can be a pain). Again getting the tempo right is key. Portamento is triggered by high velocities and there is no way to change it to low velocities that results in a sensible instrument so you have to change the midi if you are using it with non-OT instruments. It’s the same legato system as BS though, so you can reuse midi to a degree there. I say to a degree because BS has a lot more articulations than FC so you have to either set up an instance of BS where it conforms to the articulations that FC has or you have to change the FC midi. 

I said the FCs have fewer articulations than BS. They also have fewer articulations than the SF solo strings. FCs have the main string articulations, they have the nifty Sine capacity of being able to easily add legato to most articulations including the portatos. But the list of articulations is not long (sustain, soft sustain, accented sustain (which can be used for marcato except it has no RRs), portato long and short, staccato, spiccato, pizzicato, tremolo, and trills.) And all the longs have vibrato.


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## Jett Hitt (Dec 30, 2021)

I thought I would be using BFC as occassional soloists in the orchestra as I did the Leaders in BBCSO. But no. If the passage is right, maybe, but mostly not. Honestly, I knew BFC from StaffPad, and I was unconvinced of it there, but there was such a huge discount combining it with Special Bows that I took the package. I am guessing that I wouldn't like the Kontakt version either.

Edit: I should add that, in the right hands, BFC might be amazing. I couldn't recreate OT's demo to save my life.


----------



## easyrider (Dec 30, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Lol this software is such a piece of shit.


Real Shame.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> I thought I would be using BFC as occassional soloists in the orchestra as I did the Leaders in BBCSO. But no. If the passage is right, maybe, but mostly not. Honestly, I knew BFC from StaffPad, and I was unconvinced of it there, but there was such a huge discount combining it with Special Bows that I took the package. I am guessing that I wouldn't like the Kontakt version either.


I suspect I wouldn’t be impressed with FCs in Kontakt either. Just too much missing functionality. The deal with SBs was very good though and SBs are exceptional so if I think of FCs as a kind of added bonus for SBs I can be happy with that. Because I do get some use out of the FCs and they can handle a few orchestral things the SF solo strings can’t. Also I was recently working on a piece for a bunch of solo cellos and it was useful to have the FC for that. It may be my fourth or fifth cello in terms of preference but when you need six, it’s nice to have, especially since the FCs are not especially diva-ish (compared to say the Virharmonic or Tina Guo).


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## fduncan (Dec 30, 2021)

Hello, 

Since OT team seems to be on holidays (I have sent them a ticket Monday), I'm posting this here. Under Win10, I created a new user profile because my main profile had a "forbidden" character which was the origin of Sine's instability.

Under the new profile, Sine is very stable but there is a major problem. For each new session, when I fire up my DAW, I have to activate Sine. Moreover when I save my project (Studio one & Cubase), the instruments are not saved so I can load them again one after one. Therefore, the bundle I just bought is pretty much a demo right now. 

Does anyone know what's going on ? Thanks a lot.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Dec 30, 2021)

AndyP said:


> Runs and shorts example.


Are the MA 5 runs responsive to both velocity (the shorts) and modwheel (the transitions)? Or is it just modwheel?


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Are the MA 5 runs responsive to both velocity (the shorts) and modwheel (the transitions)? Or is it just modwheel?


The shorts are set to respond to velocity out of the box, but they can be changed to modwheel if you want. The runs legato uses modwheel and the playable runs without legato are also set to respond to modwheel but both can be changed to velocity. The runs articulation only has one rr and two velocity layers, compared to the shorts which have 5 rrs and 8 dynamic layers.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> The shorts are set to respond to velocity out of the box, but they can be changed to modwheel if you want. The runs legato uses modwheel and the playable runs without legato are also set to respond to modwheel but both can be changed to velocity. The runs articulation only has one rr and two velocity layers, compared to the shorts which have 5 rrs and 8 dynamic layers.


Thanks! I miss the old OT website, which had a clear and concise summary of the dynamic layers, round robins, and (I believe) the section sizes and playable ranges.

It's crazy that they don't even mention sections sizes now. And you have to click (to expand) and scroll all over to get the listing of articulations. 

The individual audio examples are an excellent improvement though.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> It's crazy that they don't even mention sections sizes now. And you have to click (to expand) and scroll all over to get the listing of articulations.


Yes, and Sine doesn't really have a manual, only the rudimentary website help, and the information for the individual libraries is not really fleshed out as well. There are also undocumented elements of Sine, like what some of the CCs do. Or the sustain pedal. So you have to do a lot of working things out on your own. Capsule was similar, but at least there was somewhat better documentation for that, especially in the old days when PDFs of manuals were still available.


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## Gensaii (Dec 30, 2021)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> It's crazy that they don't even mention sections sizes now.


Actually at least for Berlin Strings and Symphonic Strings it's right there on the products' pages. Not so much the case for Metropolis Arks as far as I'm aware however, though they do mention those in the walkthrough, which admittedly is a bit too much digging.


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## Casiquire (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> The shorts are set to respond to velocity out of the box, but they can be changed to modwheel if you want. The runs legato uses modwheel and the playable runs without legato are also set to respond to modwheel but both can be changed to velocity. The runs articulation only has one rr and two velocity layers, compared to the shorts which have 5 rrs and 8 dynamic layers.


8 layers for the shorts is nice. Also those massive shorts playable patches seem interesting


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## Soundbed (Dec 30, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> 8 layers for the shorts is nice. Also those massive shorts playable patches seem interesting


the shorts master patches are pretty awesome. and they have a cool name.

shorts master

I think it's pretty funny to say


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## dzilizzi (Dec 30, 2021)

Hey, since we are talking about Sine, does anyone know how to reset the downloads? I want to organize my Sine libraries but it is hard because they are all over my drives and they aren't labeled, which is really annoying.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Hey, since we are talking about Sine, does anyone know how to reset the downloads? I want to organize my Sine libraries but it is hard because they are all over my drives and they aren't labeled, which is really annoying.


I know! Is there a centralized list of which numbers belong to which library?


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## AndyP (Dec 30, 2021)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Are the MA 5 runs responsive to both velocity (the shorts) and modwheel (the transitions)? Or is it just modwheel?


Just modwheel from my experience. But maybe I didn't find the settings to set the runs to velocity.


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## Casiquire (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I know! Is there a centralized list of which numbers belong to which library?





dzilizzi said:


> Hey, since we are talking about Sine, does anyone know how to reset the downloads? I want to organize my Sine libraries but it is hard because they are all over my drives and they aren't labeled, which is really annoying.


SINE lets you uninstall them one by one if you want! I think it's in the "settings" menu for each library


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## Marsen (Dec 30, 2021)

In the settings for each library, there are the numbers of the folders, included to this specific library.
You can scroll, to manually write them down, or remember them.
It's a struggle, but you find the content.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I know! Is there a centralized list of which numbers belong to which library?


The Tallinn are in the high 700's low 800's. The biggest problem I have is which library does violin 1 315 come from. Because this is the 3rd violin library I've found, and I haven't gone through them all. Ark 2 started at 383 to 423. I should probably write this all down.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The Tallinn are in the high 700's low 800's. The biggest problem I have is which library does violin 1 315 come from. Because this is the 3rd violin library I've found, and I haven't gone through them all. Ark 2 started at 383 to 423. I should probably write this all down.


I've noticed this even in the Sine player: "Violin 1" is an almost useless designator there, and I often lose track of which patch is which. This is another of those extremely low hanging fruit aspects of Sine. So much could be made easier on the user with very little new programming (but only a modicum of sense about how Sine presents to users).


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## Casiquire (Dec 30, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The Tallinn are in the high 700's low 800's. The biggest problem I have is which library does violin 1 315 come from. Because this is the 3rd violin library I've found, and I haven't gone through them all. Ark 2 started at 383 to 423. I should probably write this all down.


Are you trying to uninstall them?


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## MartinH. (Dec 30, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The Tallinn are in the high 700's low 800's. The biggest problem I have is which library does violin 1 315 come from. Because this is the 3rd violin library I've found, and I haven't gone through them all. Ark 2 started at 383 to 423. I should probably write this all down.



Go to their website, open a product page, go to the individual instruments tab, hover over the buy buttons and look at the links. The number codes should be the same. Hope that helps!


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> SINE lets you uninstall them one by one if you want! I think it's in the "settings" menu for each library


But I don't want to uninstall them. I just want to move them!


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Go to their website, open a product page, go to the individual instruments tab, hover over the buy buttons and look at the links. The number codes should be the same. Hope that helps!


Do I get to make jokes about how echt deutsch this is?


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## Marsen (Dec 30, 2021)

This is all programmed from people, which seems to not have any clue, how this libraries are used by end-customers. 
It's a big mess.
I tried to see, which library i have loaded. It's not possible to get any Information out of a patch itself, if reloaded after days.

I tried to move specific libraries from one drive to another and got several crashes with Sine.
Yes, you can rescan, but it should not crash.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

Marsen said:


> This is all programmed from people, which seems to not have any clue, how this libraries are used by end-customers.
> It's a big mess.


Yes, I've said this too. Sine often feels like no one involved with its programming at OT actually uses it composing on an every day basis. And it reminds me a bit of seeing that Christian Henson has Kontakt versions of the SF Player libraries loaded on his machine. I mean, I have a pretty good idea why this kind of thing happens, and CH does have scores to deliver on time and all, but really you use your own products to make sure they work and everyone at your company knows that you are going to experience every bad decision that finds its way into the product.


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## Marsen (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Christian Henson has Kontakt versions of the SF Player libraries loaded on his machine


Ha, I wonder who uses kontakt over Sine at OT?

But OT should know, that nobody wants to experience the Play Engine desaster again.
It's End of 2021, and once more something like this to deal with?
I want to be fair and its not as worse as Play was in the beginning.
But time moves on, and software should evolve to be more user friendly & reliable.

For example, if you just want to fast compare one instrument to another, in kontakt, you can solo that,- done.
In Sine, you have to change midi-channels, reload, or change to mixer- page, where you might see dozens of channels to solo or not.
So time consuming.
And it's even no solo erase solo function, so you start a mouse-click battle.
And all these mixer channels are dark and bad to read.
Easy to get lost with to much mics loaded at the same time.
And theirs a lot more to question. 

Am I the only one? I can't believe that.


----------



## tim727 (Dec 30, 2021)

Marsen said:


> Ha, I wonder who uses kontakt over Sine at OT?
> 
> But OT should know, that nobody wants to experience the Play Engine desaster again.
> It's End of 2021, and once more something like this to deal with?
> ...


You're not the only one feeling this way. The design of SINE is so poor in so many incredibly obvious ways. It's clear that no one with any true design sensibility was involved in the design. I'm a software engineer by trade and I can't fathom implementing/designing SINE in the way that they have. It's half shocking, half funny, and half sad.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

Marsen said:


> But OT should know, that nobody wants to experience the Play Engine desaster again.
> It's End of 2021, and once more something like this to deal with?
> I want to be fair and its not as worse as Play was in the beginning.
> But time moves on, and software should evolve to be more user friendly & reliable.


Honestly when OT announced Since I thought it was going to be hard for OT, both because their initial idea was incredibly ambitious and because the company is relatively small and had never taken much of an interest in maintaining their libraries; and if you are going to do something like a player, you have to be willing to invest heavily in keeping the player working because operating systems are continually evolving. OT has actually managed jt much better than I feared, but like SF, the player's development seems to have stalled at minimally operational, and it gets functional updates only insofar as a new library needs them. It's now rare to see any basic functional upgrade in the player not tied to the needs of a specific library. So our best hope in both cases is that folks they are working with demand better functionality out of the players. Hammers on SF leveraged a lot of new functionality, some of it basic, for the SF player and hopefully we'll see the benefits on that in future updates.


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## Marsen (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> you have to be willing to invest heavily in keeping the player working because operating systems are continually evolving.


That makes be questioning the future of this player.

Not much time left for the deal, and OT is not responding to the qualms.
I guess, I already spent to much time on these thoughts.


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## Casiquire (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Honestly when OT announced Since I thought it was going to be hard for OT, both because their initial idea was incredibly ambitious and because the company is relatively small and had never taken much of an interest in maintaining their libraries; and if you are going to do something like a player, you have to be willing to invest heavily in keeping the player working because operating systems are continually evolving. OT has actually managed jt much better than I feared, but like SF, the player's development seems to have stalled at minimally operational, and it gets functional updates only insofar as a new library needs them. It's now rare to see any basic functional upgrade in the player not tied to the needs of a specific library. So our best hope in both cases is that folks they are working with demand better functionality out of the players. Hammers on SF leveraged a lot of new functionality, some of it basic, for the SF player and hopefully we'll see the benefits on that in future updates.


It's funny you mentioned Spitfire because a similar thing happened with Play, and even a little bit with the old VI player with VSL. The first iteration of these in-house players seems to be pretty much what you get aside from minimal tweaks and updates to keep operational with new OS updates. I do hope OT breaks that mold but i bought in assuming they won't.


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## Zero&One (Dec 30, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> The Tallinn are in the high 700's low 800's. The biggest problem I have is which library does violin 1 315 come from. Because this is the 3rd violin library I've found, and I haven't gone through them all. Ark 2 started at 383 to 423. I should probably write this all down.


This is what I have so far, my JXL is piece meal so not helpful and Arks are Kontakt except 1 below.
I dumped each into a folder and named it accordingly. So If/when I download a new library (like my voucher Ark 5 High Strings) I know exactly what needs to get added to a new folder. Remove/add sorted!

Might help?

BSS - 744 - 748
Modus - 640 - 660
Vivid keys - 676 - 679
Amber - 543 - 569
Inspire 1 - 426 - 457
Majestic Horn - 217
Dagu - 579 - 597
Layers - 475 - 478
SINE Factory - 751 - 795
Ark 1 - 360 - 378


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## dzilizzi (Dec 30, 2021)

Casiquire said:


> Are you trying to uninstall them?


No, just trying to find from my back ups. Everything is on my secondary computer but I really want some things on the main computer. So I've been trying to move some things around.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Christian Henson has Kontakt versions of the SF Player libraries loaded on his machine.


Pretty sure this is not true - just because the folders show up in Kontakt doesn't mean it is actually a Kontakt instrument. I _highly doubt_ Spitfire's engineering team is putting in the effort to re-script all of the new libraries in KSP.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 30, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Pretty sure this is not true - just because the folders show up in Kontakt doesn't mean it is actually a Kontakt instrument. I _highly doubt_ Spitfire's engineering team is putting in the effort to re-script all of the new libraries in KSP.


Actually, if you think about it, Christian would probably make them into EXS24. He seems to prefer that player in Logic.


----------



## ism (Dec 30, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Pretty sure this is not true - just because the folders show up in Kontakt doesn't mean it is actually a Kontakt instrument. I _highly doubt_ Spitfire's engineering team is putting in the effort to re-script all of the new libraries in KSP.


There are libraries that were originally in Kontakt now available only on the Player - ie. the evos.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 30, 2021)

ism said:


> There are libraries that were originally in Kontakt now available only on the Player - ie. the evos.


Which Evos? I have a couple but they're all in Kontakt - never were ported over. Symphonic Motions is another one I have but was always in the new player.


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## ism (Dec 30, 2021)

The original evos 1, 2 and 4 , which are now Fragile Strings etc.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Pretty sure this is not true - just because the folders show up in Kontakt doesn't mean it is actually a Kontakt instrument. I _highly doubt_ Spitfire's engineering team is putting in the effort to re-script all of the new libraries in KSP.


Maybe not, but they certainly looked like they were part of his Kontakt sets. 

It’s also hard to know what the workflow is like, or indeed whether he routinely resamples them himself like many here do.

ETA: I actually hope he does use the commercial versions because I think the player is likely to be developed sensibly if Christian and Paul are routinely using the software the same way we are.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Dec 30, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> ETA: I actually hope he does use the commercial versions because I think the player is likely to be developed sensibly if Christian and Paul are routinely using the software the same way we are.


I think this is one of the best aspects of Spitfire - both Paul and Christian are actually working composers (even to this day, they are composing for a variety of shows / media). And I believe they do use mostly their own stuff (Paul has this crazy new template he's setup in Logic specifically for scoring work). Christian has said from the beginning that he and Paul basically like to make stuff they want to use. Not every sample developer has this perspective - and it shows.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 30, 2021)

Well I have Kontakt versions of some of the Labs. Basically, I paid $10 for all of them before they were discontinued on Kontakt. It all went to charity, so I was happy to do it. That is what those could be.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

dzilizzi said:


> Well I have Kontakt versions of some of the Labs. Basically, I paid $10 for all of them before they were discontinued on Kontakt. It all went to charity, so I was happy to do it. That is what those could be.


My SF Player labs got split at some point and now I periodically have the downloaded app tell me I need to install lab libraries. I also have the Kontakt versions that I paid for back in the days SF used them to raise money for charity.


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## jbuhler (Dec 30, 2021)

ism said:


> There are libraries that were originally in Kontakt now available only on the Player - ie. the evos.


These were Abbey One libraries, as I recall. 

They might have just been filed oddly on his system or early versions might still be prototyped in Kontakt if they developed an efficient system for doing that.


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## MartinH. (Dec 31, 2021)

Regarding the problem of not being able to later tell in Sine where patches/articulations that you've assembled originally came from - that seems to already be an issue in the Kontakt versions. I started trying out MA3 yesterday and compared some patches from 1 to 3 and was immediately confused where "high strings spiccato" belongs to, because there is no mention of which ark the patch belongs to anywhere in the UI. 

My very first impression of MA3 by the way is "underwhelmed". Too early to have buyers remorse of course, but the option is on the table for sure. I'm talking about the Kontakt version, but what bothers me, likely will be exactly the same in Sine.


----------



## FKVStudio (Dec 31, 2021)

I really, among these Sine problems and others, if I could I would tell you that I am interested in selling access to my Orchestral Tools account. If I could say it, but I can't 

I don't want to know anything more about Orchestral Tools.

Happy New Year to all!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Dec 31, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Regarding the problem of not being able to later tell in Sine where patches/articulations that you've assembled originally came from - that seems to already be an issue in the Kontakt versions. I started trying out MA3 yesterday and compared some patches from 1 to 3 and was immediately confused where "high strings spiccato" belongs to, because there is no mention of which ark the patch belongs to anywhere in the UI.
> 
> My very first impression of MA3 by the way is "underwhelmed". Too early to have buyers remorse of course, but the option is on the table for sure. I'm talking about the Kontakt version, but what bothers me, likely will be exactly the same in Sine.


Sorry to hear you're underwhelmed. From the little I've heard, I thought the orchestra multis stacc/decrescendo sound glorious, and the reps seem useful.


----------



## MartinH. (Dec 31, 2021)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Sorry to hear you're underwhelmed. From the little I've heard, I thought the orchestra multis stacc/decrescendo sound glorious, and the reps seem useful.



In demos and trailers everything sounds glorious...

Some of the cluster staccatos sound to me like they have 1 dynamic 1 RR (it's actually 2d 3rr, but playing the patch I genuinely couldn't tell). 

The reps aren't tight, if you play more than one at the same time I often feel like they are slightly out of sync in a way that pro players never ever would drift apart playing in the same room. Then there seems to be an easy to trigger (or rather hard to avoid... I haven't figured out how at least) bug when playing the patch, that causes the note length keyswitch to automatically start playback even though no note is played. I hit F3 in reaper to send all note offs to stop them playing, hit another keyswitch, it's playing again. I have found no other way to reset this, other than reload the multi. I don't know if I'll even be able to use the repetition multi patches because this bug has happened pretty consistently when playing with them on my midi keyboard. Hope I'll find out how to avoid it at some point.

Also the way these are sampled and scripted, it feels like there isn't enough of a reverb tail when you stop playing a note. And when you play a note several time, it doesn't offset the start position to play the next in the sequence as if it had round robins, it just starts again at the start:

View attachment low-strings-half-note-reps.mp3


If I'd hard quantize it to the grid it would sound even worse because you'd hear a bit of the transient of the next note in the release tail. And what's with that squeaky noise? 

By the way, does anyone know the original BPM they were recorded at? I find Kontakt time stretching doesn't work well for this kind of material and as far as I can tell they are either 106 or 107 bpm, at least that are the numbers I've seen in rep sample filenames. 


Keep in mind I have spent a total of less than maybe 3 hours with the library so far, and I already found several of issues in samples, editing, scripting. Probably found more issues than in all of MA1 so far, which I've used a lot more. 
Some of the low brass crescendo note lengths for example aren't consistent:

View attachment full-orchestra-crescendos-multi.mp3


These are short, medium, long crescendos from the full orchestra crescendo multi, lowest note. First is ok-ish, but already slightly bothers me that the brass is a little late, third is good (as I'd like them all the be), and the second one is glaringly off. These patches don't have round robins or dynamic layers, so the only way to not notice this issue is never playing the lowest note of the medium length crescendos on the multi even once during QA (or never playing the note together with another note in the single articulation patch). Or they just don't give a fuck... 
Is there any other developer that has inconsistencies of this magnitude in a library of this price? I haven't seen one yet, but I only have a tiny collection, so that doesn't mean anything. Genuinely curious... 

And to be clear/fair, I'm sure if I use this library for the purpose I bought it for - making chaotic horror music - and layer enough samples to leave no single flaw too exposed, none of these issues will be a showstopper to making fine music with it (lack of my skill aside), but it won't be nearly as fun as it could be. And with this kind of price tag I want a product to at least spark some joy when I take it for a spin, and not stumble upon issue after issue. I was prepared for some of it of course, but it's even worse than I expected it to be. 
I hope I'll still manage to warm up to it, I'm certainly trying to find the patches that I like and that work well for me, but I don't think I'll buy another big OT library. Time will tell if this one already was a mistake. MA1 also has annoying flaws, but with some disclaimers I would have still recommended it at sale price and didn't regret my purchase (at sale price). With MA3 I'm not sure yet. I haven't even listed all issues I already found...


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 1, 2022)

Hi,

I'm happy to report that my issue with installing MA 3 has finally been resolved, I also had things get even stranger when none of my licensed libraries appeared, but showed up in the licensed tab, but none of them was showing as if it was installed, and had the downloads available. 

Hopefully this tip will help other SINE users when they have these types of issue. Again, many Thanks to @RonOrchComp for bringing this tip to my attention, I would have never found it, or had to wait for OT-Support, and deal with them several times until I got this fixed, it took me less than a minute to fix it by following the instructions below. 

I feel so much better now that all this has been sorted out, and my SINE libraries show up in my Library.  Hopefully this tip will help others stuck with this type of scenario, or missing images, ..etc . 

Cheers,
Muziksculp 

Deleting your Library.json​Sometimes it might be necessary for you to delete your Library.json file.

This file holds a list of your installed content, but does not actually contain the content itself. That makes it safe to delete when there are display issues, or there are download issues, allowing you to re-import your existing content.

Still - you should only do this if you are sure what you are doing, or have been asked by OT Support to do so.

Locating the Library.json​The Library.json is in your Sampler Data folder. You can find it at:

Windows: C:\Users\<USERNAME>\AppData\Local\Orchestral Tools\SINE Player

macOS: <SystemDrive>:Users:<Username>:Library:Application Support:Orchestral Tools:SINE Player

Just delete the Library.json - it will be re-created when you open SINE again. You can re-import existing content using +Collection in the Library View. Point SINE Player to your Content folder (for example " /DriveName/Orchestral Tools/SINE Player/Content".


----------



## PrimeEagle (Jan 1, 2022)

Zero&One said:


> This is what I have so far, my JXL is piece meal so not helpful and Arks are Kontakt except 1 below.
> I dumped each into a folder and named it accordingly. So If/when I download a new library (like my voucher Ark 5 High Strings) I know exactly what needs to get added to a new folder. Remove/add sorted!
> 
> Might help?
> ...


A few more:

Ark 5 - 1478 - 1510
Andea - 1260 - 1324
Crucible - 824
Dynamo - 1236 - 1259
Gearbox - 752 - 764
Helix - 751
Ratio - 750
Rotary - 790 - 795
Spindle - 1325
Strand - 920 - 921


----------



## galactic orange (Jan 1, 2022)

PrimeEagle said:


> A few more:
> 
> Ark 5 - 1478 - 1510
> Andea - 1260 - 1324
> ...


Thank you and everyone who is posting these. The fact that the folders are this hard to find and manage is kind of embarrassing.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 1, 2022)

galactic orange said:


> Thank you and everyone who is posting these. The fact that the folders are this hard to find and manage is kind of embarrassing.


What, you don't keep catalogues of arbitrary number ranges in your head for easy reference?


----------



## andyhy (Jan 2, 2022)

galactic orange said:


> Thank you and everyone who is posting these. The fact that the folders are this hard to find and manage is kind of embarrassing.


I find it easier than the old Kontakt approach as I have OT libraries on more than one drive and also backup any new additions. I'm sure you'll get used to the numbering system.


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 2, 2022)

andyhy said:


> I find it easier than the old Kontakt approach as I have OT libraries on more than one drive and also backup any new additions. I'm sure you'll get used to the numbering system.


I also generally prefer Sine to Kontakt. But there’s no reason OT needs to use an opaque numbering system for this. It’s much harder to relocate a Sine library than a Kontakt one.


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 2, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I also generally prefer Sine to Kontakt. But there’s no reason OT needs to use an opaque numbering system for this. It’s much harder to relocate a Sine library than a Kontakt one.


I agree.

I would expect a directory of their libraries file numbering system to have been documented on their website, but I don't think they have anything like this posted on their site so we can reference it.


----------



## Gensaii (Jan 2, 2022)

It's silly to say the least. What I had to do was re-download each library on its own and move it to its seperate folder before downloading the next. After I'm finished I just use the "Collection" button to point each library to its new dedicated location. It's a bit hectic but now I don't even have to care about these numbers. It's another one of those "fine I'll do it myself" situations.


----------



## galactic orange (Jan 3, 2022)

Gensaii said:


> It's silly to say the least. What I had to do was re-download each library on its own and move it to its seperate folder before downloading the next. After I'm finished I just use the "Collection" button to point each library to its new dedicated location. It's a bit hectic but now I don't even have to care about these numbers. It's another one of those "fine I'll do it myself" situations.


Is that possible? If renaming folders doesn’t break anything or get changed then I don’t mind doing it. That’s nothing compared to setting up templates and making articulation maps.


----------



## Michael Antrum (Jan 3, 2022)

I first started to lose faith with OT when they launched the Revive version of the woodwinds. You either upgraded before an arbitrary date, or you were stuck on the old version permanently. 

No 'intro discount' - but upgrade by this date or else. I thought that was not only unfair on the customer, but also a rather foolish decision from a business perspective, and it changed my view on the company.

I'd happily pre-ordered, and been very happy with all the Arks (1-4). But it was with the launch of of the JXL Brass that things started to really unravel. I didn't buy it (not my thing), but there were a lot of people on the forum who'd paid a lot of money for a product that seemed to be largely unusable at the time.

I'm an amateur composer, and I have limited time for my 'hobby' as I have a very busy professional schedule. In short, I have little tolerance for wasting my time on products that don't work correctly. All software has bugs, of course, but professional tools need to work reliably, or I'll equip people with other professional tools that do work. What I find insane is that there appears to be little or no recourse available to the customer if they purchase something that is not really fit for purpose from a developer.

The responses by to many of those who pre-ordered JXL Brass were, in my opinion, appalling. Some fo their customers had paid something like € 750 (? IIRC) for something they couldn't really use. And OT seemed determined to hang on to their money even though the product was a mess.

I know many of you here are highly regarded professional composers with deadlines to keep to, so it must be even more serious for you guys and girls.

But there is one simple fact that shows the regard in which it's customers are held. It is a fact that I still simply cannot believe, and that fact is:

Despite Sine player being released over two years ago, *there is still no user manual for it.*

Says it all really.


----------



## FKVStudio (Jan 3, 2022)

If @OrchestralTools has shown one thing, it's that they don't care about their customers. The only thing they want is your money but, yes, they do not allow you to resell the bookstores that you have acquired. Well, I have it clear, if someone is interested in my Orchestral Tools account, let them speak to me privately. I don't want to know anything more about Orchestral Tools.

There are much better options, both in terms of bookstores and customer service.


----------



## funnybear (Jan 3, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> Despite Sine player being released over two years ago, *there is still no user manual for it.*



They have one online:




__





SINEplayer Quick Start - Orchestral Tools Helpdesk


After adding instruments (either from MyLicenses, or from existing downloads you did earlier – see the Installation Guide for details), your instruments with al




orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com


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## Gensaii (Jan 3, 2022)

galactic orange said:


> Is that possible? If renaming folders doesn’t break anything or get changed then I don’t mind doing it. That’s nothing compared to setting up templates and making articulation maps.


Absolutely possible. Cause I did it. 😅 But I get your concern. I'm coming from a place where I haven't had any issues regarding crashes so I didn't worry about it. I'm still on 1.0.7 if this matters in any way.

Edit: Well correction I've had my fair share. But nothing that got more than just a few curse words out of me.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 4, 2022)

so.. what to do now?

get the bundle or not.. last hours..


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> so.. what to do now?
> 
> get the bundle or not.. last hours..


Join the self help group?






Worth buying the Metropolis Ark Bundle (1-5)?


Spending 999 euros currently is a huge pressure for me, but if I recall, OT doesn't do sales that often. How likely do you think they might ever do sales of this much? (I mean specifically the bundle of all Arks being 999 Euros again)... I was gonna buy Ark 5 for a current intro offer, but the...




vi-control.net


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## Levon (Jan 4, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> so.. what to do now?
> 
> get the bundle or not.. last hours..


I caved in. Already had Arks 1 to 3 so the deal to complete the series was too good a deal for me. Looking forward to using them all!


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## muziksculp (Jan 4, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> so.. what to do now?
> 
> get the bundle or not.. last hours..


Flip a coin.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Flip a coin.


if it's heads I get the bundle in Kontakt? 

na, I don't know.. recent experiences with the port to Sine still make me shy away from everyday use..


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 4, 2022)

Levon said:


> I caved in. Already had Arks 1 to 3 so the deal to complete the series was too good a deal for me. Looking forward to using them all!


I only got MA4, so it's still some money.. but Sine, man.. Sine.. :_


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## doctoremmet (Jan 4, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I only got MA4, so it's still some money.. but Sine, man.. Sine.. :_


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## muziksculp (Jan 4, 2022)

@Fever Phoenix 

I deleted all of my Kontakt versions of MA 1,2,3,4, and have them all in SINE. also got MA 5, so all 1,2,3,4,5 M.Arks in SINE. Not sure if that tells you something.


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## muziksculp (Jan 4, 2022)

The only issue I had with SINE since I began using it was a few weeks ago, when I was installing MA3 it got stuck, and wouldn't cooperate to let me use SINE, after thinking I'm in deep trouble, and everything is doom and gloom, I was able to fix the issue via a tip from a forum member, the fix took less than a minute. SINE works very well, and if you have an install, or GUI issue, it's easy to fix.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> The only issue I had with SINE since I began using it was a few weeks ago, when I was installing MA3 it got stuck, and wouldn't cooperate to let me use SINE, after thinking I'm in deep trouble, and everything is doom and gloom, I was able to fix the issue via a tip from a forum member, the fix took less than a minute. SINE works very well, and if you have an install, or GUI issue, it's easy to fix.




I remember, indeed..
thanks for your feedback 

I had a lot of holiday responsibilities and had no time to really think about getting the bundle or not.. now is the last day, lol


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## muziksculp (Jan 4, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I remember, indeed..
> thanks for your feedback
> 
> I had a lot of holiday responsibilities and had no time to really think about getting the bundle or not.. now is the last day, lol


The Metr. Ark Bundle will give you a lot of new sounds, and orchestral power when you need it. The price of the bundle is very attractive if you consider the regular price of each MA library alone. So, if you have the funds, and don't have something else that is a priority buy, I think you should go for it. You can do a lot with this bundle alone, and don't be afraid of SINE, it won't bite, and it does follow your orders.


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## tim727 (Jan 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> ... don't be afraid of SINE, it won't bite, and it does follow your orders.


As long as those orders are not "DON'T CRASH"


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## muziksculp (Jan 4, 2022)

tim727 said:


> As long as those orders are not "DON'T CRASH"


Nah... SINE never crashed my DAW, not once.


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## tim727 (Jan 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Nah... SINE never crashed my DAW, not once.


Yes for you. But it does for many others, so it's a good thing for prospective users to know. Does that mean that it will crash this particular user's DAW? No. But it certainly could. And that chance seems significantly higher than with Kontakt.


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## jbuhler (Jan 4, 2022)

tim727 said:


> As long as those orders are not "DON'T CRASH"


Honestly, I've been trying to crash Sine with the Arks since I got them. They have all this tempo sync stuff that in my experience often makes plugins unstable. So I've been trying abrupt tempo changes, long convoluted tempo ramps and such. But so far I haven't been able to do it. Not once has Sine crashed. I haven't yet tried changing the buffer though, and some have reported that high buffer settings and the chords patch don't play well together.

Oh, Kontakt crashed Logic on me yesterday.


----------



## tim727 (Jan 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Honestly, I've been trying to crash Sine with the Arks since I got them. They have all this tempo sync stuff that in my experience often makes plugins unstable. So I've been trying abrupt tempo changes, long convoluted tempo ramps and such. But so far I haven't been able to do it. Not once has Sine crashed. I haven't yet tried changing the buffer though, and some have reported that high buffer settings and the chords patch don't play well together.
> 
> Oh, Kontakt crashed Logic on me yesterday.


I am genuinely happy that SINE has been stable for you (that was not sarcasm). I'm merely stating that _on average_ SINE appears objectively less stable than Kontakt. That doesn't mean it's less stable for you ... or me ... or musiksculp, but there have been enough people posting about frequent crashes that it's clear that a certain subset of users (myself included) has some real stability problems with it.

SINE has crashed on me dozens of times in a few weeks. I don't think Kontakt has ever crashed on me once in my 8 years of using it.


----------



## ism (Jan 4, 2022)

tim727 said:


> I don't think Kontakt has ever crashed on me once in my 8 years of using it.


Wow.


----------



## tim727 (Jan 4, 2022)

ism said:


> Wow.


I may be lucky ... not sure. I just know that for me there is a striking difference in stability between the two players. And since I don't remember pre-SINE OT lib release threads being rife with complaints of crashing something tells me I'm not the only one.


----------



## tim727 (Jan 4, 2022)

On a more positive note after playing around with Ark 4 (Kontakt) for a week now my already initially high opinion of it just continues to grow. I think this library is a marvel and I'd say it has now edged out Ark 2 as my favorite Ark, and perhaps my favorite library period.


----------



## Soundbed (Jan 4, 2022)

tim727 said:


> I don't think Kontakt has ever crashed on me once in my 8 years of using it.


Wow x2


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 4, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> The Metr. Ark Bundle will give you a lot of new sounds, and orchestral power when you need it. The price of the bundle is very attractive if you consider the regular price of each MA library alone. So, if you have the funds, and don't have something else that is a priority buy, I think you should go for it. You can do a lot with this bundle alone, and don't be afraid of SINE, it won't bite, and it does follow your orders.


I have a huge amount of libraries and I have the funds to just by the bundle. I do have MA4.. then again, I have so many libraries I haven't really explored so far and I am on a deadline as always.. I could just buy the bundle, but I kind of struggle to spend money for OT products atm


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 4, 2022)

tim727 said:


> I am genuinely happy that SINE has been stable for you (that was not sarcasm). I'm merely stating that _on average_ SINE appears objectively less stable than Kontakt. That doesn't mean it's less stable for you ... or me ... or musiksculp, but there have been enough people posting about frequent crashes that it's clear that a certain subset of users (myself included) has some real stability problems with it.
> 
> SINE has crashed on me dozens of times in a few weeks. I don't think Kontakt has ever crashed on me once in my 8 years of using it.


I know Sine has been unstable for many. And I've had periods when it's been unstable for me too. I also have a long list of complaints about Sine. But Kontakt can cause issues too, and it routinely does things like hang notes. Kontakt player libraries are increasingly closed to user tinkering, making the Kontakt player more like a third party player with all the disadvantages of Kontakt and few of the advantages. And I wouldn't call Native Instruments a paragon of user support when things go bad. The one thing NI is very good at is getting out updates that shows a real commitment to regular maintenance, and OT could really learn from that.


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## tim727 (Jan 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I know Sine has been unstable for many. And I've had periods when it's been unstable for me too. I also have a long list of complaints about Sine. But Kontakt can cause issues too, and it routinely does things like hang notes. Kontakt player libraries are increasingly closed to user tinkering, making the Kontakt player more like a third party player with all the disadvantages of Kontakt and few of the advantages. And I wouldn't call Native Instruments a paragon of user support when things go bad. The one thing NI is very good at is getting out updates that shows a real commitment to regular maintenance, and OT could really learn from that.


I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points per se but I see no reason to reopen a general SINE vs Kontakt debate at this time because we've already hashed that out to death and well into the afterlife in fact  

On the point of stability though, did you take any action to increase its stability for you? I did make sure to update to the most recent version but that has not seemed to have an effect.


----------



## modularg2 (Jan 4, 2022)

galactic orange said:


> Thank you and everyone who is posting these. The fact that the folders are this hard to find and manage is kind of embarrassing.


If you in Library menu take "settings" within the Library you want to know the folder number, it open a white window where in options show the location and the folder with the numbers of library


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 4, 2022)

tim727 said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points per se but I see no reason to reopen a general SINE vs Kontakt debate at this time because we've already hashed that out to death and well into the afterlife in fact
> 
> On the point of stability though, did you take any action to increase its stability for you? I did make sure to update to the most recent version but that has not seemed to have an effect.


No. I had a fit of instability early on where I couldn't use a library I purchased (Amber), and support ran out of ideas. But it started working a few months later, probably after an update. More recently I've been having an intermittent issue with Sine hanging when I open a project with Sine in it. I haven't experienced it in a month or so. I can't remember if it disappeared with 1.0.7. I think not, but it's possible it did. I'm still on 1.0.7, and, yes, one reason I haven't updated is because Sine is stable for me...


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 4, 2022)

modularg2 said:


> If you in Library menu take "settings" within the Library you want to know the folder number, it open a white window where in options show the location and the folder with the numbers of library


I mean sort of. Here's what that returns for me:










There's no way to scroll over and see the rest of the entry.


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 4, 2022)

tim727 said:


> I don't think Kontakt has ever crashed on me once in my 8 years of using it.


That's some good NI-Kontakt propaganda. You must be one in a million that can say that.


----------



## modularg2 (Jan 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I mean sort of. Here's what that returns for me:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


exactly. If you scroll the location's path within the window, you'll see the numbers of the folders that are the ones of the library


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 4, 2022)

modularg2 said:


> exactly. If you scroll the location's path within the window, you'll see the numbers of the folders that are the ones of the library


Ok, I see that a scroll bar does appear if you click down near the bottom of the list. But it only moves if you click at the bottom and make the scroll bar appear.


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## modularg2 (Jan 4, 2022)

This what I have


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## modularg2 (Jan 4, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> Ok, I see that a scroll bar does appear if you click down near the bottom of the list. But it only moves if you click at the bottom and make the scroll bar appear.


Yes indeed


----------



## jbuhler (Jan 4, 2022)

modularg2 said:


> This what I have


I learned something new about Sine. I never managed to get that scroll bar to appear before this.


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## muziksculp (Jan 4, 2022)

@modularg2 ,

Thanks for the tip.  

This is new to me as well. At least I can now tell where the library resides, and the file numbers that make the library up. 

Again, the SINE GUI wasn't very intuitive to find such a simple functionality. Just oddly designed.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna (Jan 4, 2022)

not sure what you guys' experience will be, but when I renamed a folder and it came time to update, Sine could not do it.


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 4, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> I first started to lose faith with OT when they launched the Revive version of the woodwinds. You either upgraded before an arbitrary date, or you were stuck on the old version permanently.
> 
> No 'intro discount' - but upgrade by this date or else. I thought that was not only unfair on the customer, but also a rather foolish decision from a business perspective, and it changed my view on the company.
> 
> ...


I see it differently. Revive is a new library and is offered to legacy users for like a third the cost despite being mostly new samples (compare to BBO owners buying Synchron Brass. Heck VSL charges me similar prices for upgrading to Synchronized and those are literally the same samples). I don't recall JXL being considered unusable on release, but if it was, they've certainly responded to that and it's pretty well loved today (compare again to VSL whose first release it Synchron Strings was considered pretty bad, and it was followed by a year or two of radio silence and pretending everything is fine before adding Cantabile patches and doing a soft reboot by releasing SSP). I'm picking on VSL just because they are considered one if the better devs when it comes to customer support. Agreed regarding SINE quality control and lack of documentation, though. I'd love a deep manual, I'd love transparency, and I'd love a major SINE upgrade


----------



## Fever Phoenix (Jan 4, 2022)

allright.. GAS took over.. bundle bought..

maybe Sine and me will become friends somewhen in the future


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## Gensaii (Jan 4, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> allright.. GAS took over.. bundle bought..
> 
> maybe Sine and me will become friends somewhen in the future


Congratulations. Hope you make the most of it!

I'm gonna have to ask what does GAS stand for again?


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 4, 2022)

I’ve been wondering. Why is it an end of an era? I mean, why don’t OT just make a 6th one and then it won’t be the end of an era? 😂


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## Getsumen (Jan 4, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> I’ve been wondering. Why is it an end of an era? I mean, why don’t OT just make a 6th one and then it won’t be the end of an era? 😂


Only so many ways to reinvent the wheel. To be honest it's nice to see what OT will put out in the future instead.


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 4, 2022)

So, now that their Metropolis Ark Series has ended, giving us MA1,2,3,4, and the final Ark MA 5.

I wonder if they are planning a new Era or series of libraries with a different focus. or maybe they are completely done with the concept of a series like the Metropolis Ark series ?

I'm also curious if they will add more articulations, or maybe an expansion/s to their Berlin Symphonic Strings Library, which is kind of an abandoned/loner library, it has a lot of potential, yet it hasn't received any TLC, or attention from OT since it was released, and it took them ages to fix the mic-merge feature, and some of the samples are still not fixed. Maybe a Symphonic Orchestra is next ? or ... ?


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 4, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> I see it differently. Revive is a new library and is offered to legacy users for like a third the cost despite being mostly new samples (compare to BBO owners buying Synchron Brass. Heck VSL charges me similar prices for upgrading to Synchronized and those are literally the same samples). I don't recall JXL being considered unusable on release, but if it was, they've certainly responded to that and it's pretty well loved today (compare again to VSL whose first release it Synchron Strings was considered pretty bad, and it was followed by a year or two of radio silence and pretending everything is fine before adding Cantabile patches and doing a soft reboot by releasing SSP). I'm picking on VSL just because they are considered one if the better devs when it comes to customer support. Agreed regarding SINE quality control and lack of documentation, though. I'd love a deep manual, I'd love transparency, and I'd love a major SINE upgrade


Revive wasn’t a new library, it was a re-edit/upgrade of the old one (hence the name) But the issue I had with it was not that they charged for it - no problem there - but that upon release you had to upgrade from the legacy version to revive by some arbitrary date (IIRC it was about a month after release) and after that date if you hadn’t upgraded to the Revive version then you were stuck on the old version for good. That is what I thought was poor.

JXL Brass was a car crash at launch, just read the thread here to see how upset people were. Sine was at the root of this of course, as it was so unstable and people were upset at spending so much money on a library they couldn’t use reliably months later. There were lots of angry posts about their refund policy, especially as it was a product sold on pre-order. Loads of posts praising the sound though.

Synchron Strings was a rare car crash from VSL to be sure, I don’t think they have ever done another pre-order sinc. So it’s seems a lesson has been learned there. Whether or not you like their libraries, their product launches seem to have been almost flawless since then.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 5, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> I’ve been wondering. Why is it an end of an era? I mean, why don’t OT just make a 6th one and then it won’t be the end of an era? 😂


MA5 is "The End Of An Era"... 
So MA6 can be "The Return Of A Legend" 🙄


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## Marsen (Jan 5, 2022)

Sine crashed yesterday by just loading a new preset.
I'm real tired to read this habit "Everything is fine for me, so what are you talking about".
And my sytem is very stable otherwise. 
The only player, which crashes more, is play and ( of course) engine.


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## Kony (Jan 5, 2022)

I've found the following link helpful in lieu of a SINE manual:



https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/magazine/view/tips-and-tricks/63



The page also contains further links to go deeper.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 5, 2022)

Gensaii said:


> Congratulations. Hope you make the most of it!
> 
> I'm gonna have to ask what does GAS stand for again?



Gear Aquiring Syndrom


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## MartinH. (Jan 5, 2022)

Marsen said:


> The only player, which crashes more, is play and ( of course) engine.


Not being the absolute worst player on the market for such a young product is honestly kind of impressive.


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## ShidoStrife (Jan 5, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> Revive wasn’t a new library, it was a re-edit/upgrade of the old one (hence the name) But the issue I had with it was not that they charged for it - no problem there - but that upon release you had to upgrade from the legacy version to revive by some arbitrary date (IIRC it was about a month after release) and after that date if you hadn’t upgraded to the Revive version then you were stuck on the old version for good. That is what I thought was poor.
> 
> JXL Brass was a car crash at launch, just read the thread here to see how upset people were. Sine was at the root of this of course, as it was so unstable and people were upset at spending so much money on a library they couldn’t use reliably months later. There were lots of angry posts about their refund policy, especially as it was a product sold on pre-order. Loads of posts praising the sound though.
> 
> Synchron Strings was a rare car crash from VSL to be sure, I don’t think they have ever done another pre-order sinc. So it’s seems a lesson has been learned there. Whether or not you like their libraries, their product launches seem to have been almost flawless since then.



I'm not familiar with the old releases, but isn't this an upgrade? It's still on their store.









Berlin Woodwinds Revive Crossgrade


This license is exclusively for people who already own the original Berlin Woodwinds (Legacy version for Kontakt, sold from 2012 to 2017), and provides them with the additional content contained in the later ‘Revive’ version in the Kontakt version. After purchasing this license, a crossgrade to...




www.orchestraltools.com


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## galactic orange (Jan 5, 2022)

The Revive upgrade was not available for a long period of time.


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## Casiquire (Jan 5, 2022)

Michael Antrum said:


> Revive wasn’t a new library, it was a re-edit/upgrade of the old one (hence the name) But the issue I had with it was not that they charged for it - no problem there - but that upon release you had to upgrade from the legacy version to revive by some arbitrary date (IIRC it was about a month after release) and after that date if you hadn’t upgraded to the Revive version then you were stuck on the old version for good. That is what I thought was poor.
> 
> JXL Brass was a car crash at launch, just read the thread here to see how upset people were. Sine was at the root of this of course, as it was so unstable and people were upset at spending so much money on a library they couldn’t use reliably months later. There were lots of angry posts about their refund policy, especially as it was a product sold on pre-order. Loads of posts praising the sound though.
> 
> Synchron Strings was a rare car crash from VSL to be sure, I don’t think they have ever done another pre-order sinc. So it’s seems a lesson has been learned there. Whether or not you like their libraries, their product launches seem to have been almost flawless since then.


Revive is indeed mostly new; that was confirmed by Tobias


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## Trash Panda (Jan 5, 2022)

jononotbono said:


> I’ve been wondering. Why is it an end of an era? I mean, why don’t OT just make a 6th one and then it won’t be the end of an era? 😂


Maybe it’s the Beginning of an Error!


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Maybe it’s the Beginning of an Error!



Let's hope it's the end of the era of not fixing bugs and faulty samples for a ridiculously long time!


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 5, 2022)

Revive is mostly new recordings from legacy BWW (but does include some of the original) - it also got rid of some of legacy BWW stuff (recorded runs, flutes in octaves, clarinet ensemble). The nice thing about the Kontakt version was they would give you both legacy and revive. No longer the case with SINE. Also, they only had the crossgrade to Revive available for a short period of time initially. I emailed them a few times asking when it would be available again and inexplicably, they didn't know. Thankfully I grabbed it when it came back around on Kontakt so now I have BWW legacy, revive, and the SINE port.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 5, 2022)

When it comes to OT, the way things are being communicated is very inconsistent and as a customer I feel very detached from them. Spitfire had and has similar things happen with libraries merging or not being continued or not being sold anymore (fe Loegria), but the way it was communicated and/or marketed was very clear and straight forward. I am aware not everybody might feel this way, but in my case, with the experiences I have made, I will buy SA over OT anyday when it comes to customer service, pricing policy and approachability.

As for the players: I don't like either tbh  but the SA player has never crashed my daw, just never. I value that. But then, Sine has much more potential as of now. It works standalone as well and articulations and libraries can be stacked.

Apologies, as I didn't want to make this a comparison per se.


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 5, 2022)

Casiquire said:


> Revive is indeed mostly new; that was confirmed by Tobias






ALittleNightMusic said:


> Revive is mostly new recordings from legacy BWW (but does include some of the original) - it also got rid of some of legacy BWW stuff (recorded runs, flutes in octaves, clarinet ensemble).



Well here's OT on the matter:



Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Thanks for all the feedback so far!
> 
> With Revive we gave Berlin Woodwinds a huge upgrade. The sound of the new instruments is extremely good and it made sense to us to replace the weaker instruments. On the other hand, there were some really unique and timeless instruments in the Legacy collection, like our Flute 1, which has the loveliest sound, I every encountered in a sampled flute. Obviously we cannot reproduce that sound or add new articulations to that instrument, as the recordings were done in 2011.



The original library was 73gb and the new update was 50gb.

Yes it was a big upgrade, but it was still an upgrade as it still had many of the original samples. But that was not my point. I have no issue with the fact the upgrade was chargeable. The problem I had with it is that gave you a deadline of a month to buy the upgrade, and after that date there was no way to upgrade later on.

I don't like it when companies attempt to 'force' you to spend money under threat of having your software left with no upgrade path.....Musicians are especially prone to suffer from 'cashflow irregularities', and this was both a poor decision from both a customer service point of view, and not smart from a business perspective either.

(I do understand that a few years later they relented and allowed upgrades for another very short period.)


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## jononotbono (Jan 5, 2022)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> MA5 is "The End Of An Era"...
> So MA6 can be "The Return Of A Legend" 🙄


NA6 "The Return of A Legend. Noah and his Ark"

Meticulous sampling of sounds created from Noah's actual ark that was uniquely found underneath Teldex scoring stage.

I'm hoping they never stop making the Arks.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 5, 2022)

I am using MA5 in a project, but somehow all the chord articulations have disappeared. Well they are there but they don't playback anymore, no sounds.. I checked all instruments and nothing.. In a multi all other articulations work except the chords.

I contacted support, anybody else run into similar issues?

EDIT: as I am on a tight deadline I will copy and paste/post this also on the other MA5 thread. Thx for any help! OT support is still in holiday 🤷‍♂️


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 5, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I am using MA5 in a project, but somehow all the chord articulations have disappeared. Well they are there but they don't playback anymore, no sounds.. I checked all instruments and nothing.. In a multi all other articulations work except the chords.
> 
> I contacted support, anybody else run into similar issues?
> 
> EDIT: as I am on a tight deadline I will copy and paste/post this also on the other MA5 thread. Thx for any help! OT support is still in holiday 🤷‍♂️


I had this problem. Upgrading to 1.0.8 solved my issue--at least temporarily. I have not, however, been using it, so it might have just reset something and will happen again.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 5, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> I had this problem. Upgrading to 1.0.8 solved my issue--at least temporarily. I have not, however, been using it, so it might have just reset something and will happen again.


I just did that, no change. Interesting though, it seems to work in standalone, but not in Cubase. 

Also, when I was setting up the new template all was fine. All articulations including chords were playing. I went to dinner and when I came back chord articulations wouldn't play no more.. :/


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 5, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I am using MA5 in a project, but somehow all the chord articulations have disappeared. Well they are there but they don't playback anymore, no sounds.. I checked all instruments and nothing.. In a multi all other articulations work except the chords.
> 
> I contacted support, anybody else run into similar issues?
> 
> EDIT: as I am on a tight deadline I will copy and paste/post this also on the other MA5 thread. Thx for any help! OT support is still in holiday 🤷‍♂️


Suggesting this as a last resort and I sincerely hope you won't have to do this, but I have the Violas/Horns/Winds and the High Woodwinds if you need audio exports.


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 5, 2022)

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Suggesting this as a last resort and I sincerely hope you won't have to do this, but I have the Violas/Horns/Winds and the High Woodwinds if you need audio exports.



That is very kind if you, thank you!
I already took a different route and worked with other instruments. It is not a huge drama, but an inconvinience and just another weird problem in Sine 🤷‍♂️.

I just wanted to work heavily with the MA5 chords for this episode. 

I am sure the problem can be fixed easily, at least I hope so.

Just was wondering if someone had it and solved it.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 5, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> I just did that, no change. Interesting though, it seems to work in standalone, but not in Cubase.
> 
> Also, when I was setting up the new template all was fine. All articulations including chords were playing. I went to dinner and when I came back chord articulations wouldn't play no more.. :/


My problems are in Logic, but I have had this exact problem. I have had quite a few mystery problems that seemed to resolve themselves over time through no action of mine. Sine is working for me presently, but before upgrading to 1.0.8, I had a hellish few days. I am not under any deadlines, so I have resorted to working on some smaller pieces until Sine stabilizes. I can't imagine gambling that it would work under a deadline. That would scare me.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Jan 5, 2022)

Was in a similar situation two days ago, using those chord articulations for a custom trailer track. For some reason I had to push my audio interface buffer size to the max and it made SINE crash Cubase immediately (two times) just a few minutes before the deadline!

I think it has been reported somewhere in this thread before.

Anyway, good thing you got a solution in the meantime  Good luck!


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## jbuhler (Jan 5, 2022)

I got a response back from OT on my 15 point missive about Sine. It seems OT is committed to the numbering system for files and to installing the libraries at the root level of the drive because it solves a bunch of customer issues. I'm told the other issues I raised are all already on their to do list. No sense about when they might be tackled but I was pleased to hear that they at least have plans to address issues.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 5, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> I got a response back from OT on my 15 point missive about Sine. It seems OT is committed to the numbering system for files and to installing the libraries at the root level of the drive because it solves a bunch of customer issues. I'm told the other issues I raised are all already on their to do list. No sense about when they might be tackled but I was pleased to hear that they at least have plans to address issues.


I’m glad to hear this. No doubt your great grand children will greatly benefit when they implement the changes 😂


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## Fever Phoenix (Jan 10, 2022)

Important info for anyone running into issues with the chord patches in MA5:

OT support finally got back to me today and told me that it is a known problem that the chords don't play if the tempo is set to 95 bpm.. 

🤷‍♂️


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## tim727 (Jan 10, 2022)

Fever Phoenix said:


> Important info for anyone running into issues with the chord patches in MA5:
> 
> OT support finally got back to me today and told me that it is a known problem that the chords don't play if the tempo is set to 95 bpm..
> 
> 🤷‍♂️


Time to try 94 or 96 bpm lol


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## Igorianych (Jan 18, 2022)

I see that there is an update for Ark 5. I wonder what's new?

Looks like only one patch


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