# DAW direction needed



## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

After three or four years absence from music, I'm re-researching DAWs, namely, to do one thing: bring into the DAW what I write in Musescore (orchestral, jazz and some choir) in order to attach VSTis and then tweak for a good output—Musescore, as of yet, doesn't support anything but soundfonts. I won't be doing any writing/composing or recording with the DAW. I just want to get a reasonably good outup verses what I get from Musescore. This is for personal enjoyment and, perhaps, having our local community bands and choirs be able to hear what I've written before they perform it. 

At the top of the list of DAWs is Reaper. Although I'm not a tech-type person, the pros are that there are numerous videos and a good support system. At first I though I'd pass on it because I understand it's learning curve can be a bit daunting due to its vast configurable nature. Then again, I thought I'm only going to be using it for one purpose, so maybe Reaper will work. Otherwise, I've looked at Cakewalk, Mixcraft and MuTools Mulab. I don't want to fork out the cash for DAWs like Cubase and such; I don't think I'll need to do that in order to accomplish my particular use of a DAW. I'd rather put some cash into the VSTis. 

Musescore can export MIDI, MusicXML and uncompressed Musescore files (*.mscx). That said, I'd like to know your thoughts about a few things. First, what DAW software would you use to take from Musescore's available outputs in order to and accomplish what I want to do (again, no composing or recording)? What DAW, to your mind, has the best relative ease for doing this?

Second, if I go with Reaper, are any of you aware of videos (and articles) that specifically hone in on doing what I want to do? I've watched Kenny Gioia's "This is Reaper" series, but I haven't gone through his site yet to find specifics. 

Cakewalk is second on my list. Some say it's very easy to use, others that it has a steep learning curve. Again, I'm after finding a good workflow for working with VSTis, not writing, recording, creating beats, loops and such.

Finally, since nothing here is being done with delusions of granduer of becoming professional or submitting my work for such use, what about Mixcraft and Mulab? Though not on the top of a pro's list for DAWs, would they have a place in this? Would they be better than going with Reaper (again for relative ease of use), or, when all is said and done, no DAW is going to be much "easier" to learn, even for just the VST aspect?

Thanks very much.


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## easyrider (Jul 4, 2021)

Studio One.

Incredible workflow
Easy to work with
Easy to learn
Excellent support
Sound variations
Free Updates

👍


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## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Studio One.
> 
> Incredible workflow
> Easy to work with
> ...


I will look into that! It came across my desk, but I think I overlooked it. Thanks!


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 4, 2021)

Reaper is a tech persons paradise… and a normal persons hell 😃

I’d never recommend it unless you are very technically inclined and like to tinker to make a DAW work for you (and not be as ugly, too).


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## b_elliott (Jul 4, 2021)

If you decide on a DAW without a monthly subscription, that would be Reaper. A one time $80 payment gets you everything you require.

I am not technically inclined but had no problems learning Reaper. I simply started with Kenny Gioia's "Watch These First Series". Looking at your needs, you may learn what you need by the first 10 videos. That you have Musescore figured out, tells me you wouldn't have much trouble learning Reaper IMHO.

BTW I see that MUSESCORE has vst support through the JACK interface. That route may really simplify your life. Google it in case this is news. Cheers, Bill


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## rrichard63 (Jul 4, 2021)

Mixcraft is the easiest DAW to learn. Part of that is the software itself, part is the excellent manual, and part is the very active and helpful support forum. Based on the OP's description, that may or may not be the most important factor. It doesn't sound like he needs the Pro version, unless he is recording vocals, in which case he is going to want Melodyne.

To the extent that programming articulation changes is important -- and it sounds like that might be an important consideration here -- Studio One seems to be leading the others right now.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 4, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> Mixcraft is the easiest DAW to learn. Part of that is the software itself, part is the excellent manual, and part is the very active and helpful support forum. Based on the OP's description, that may or may not be the most important factor. It doesn't sound like he needs the Pro version, unless he is recording vocals, in which case he is going to want Melodyne.
> 
> To the extent that programming articulation changes is important -- and it sounds like that might be an important consideration here -- Studio One seems to be leading the others right now.


Strongly disagree that it’s the easiest to learn, but there’s enough free, quality DAWs now to try 3 to 4 out and see if any “click” with you.


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## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

> vitocorleone123 - Reaper is a tech persons paradise… and a normal persons hell​


I've heard that! I think they need to add more configuration options, don't you think!




> b_elliot - If you decide on a DAW without a monthly subscription, that would be Reaper.


Negative on the subscription thing! Reaper for a partial win so far! Oh, and currently, JACK allows you to connect to a DAW, and that would be the way to use VST instruments. So we're still in square one.




> 3DC -
> If you really want to save money go with Reaper. . . . I never tried Mixcraft myself but I hear its great and easy to use DAW. You can get Pro version for 149$ and unlike empty Reaper its filled with all sorts of tools and goodies.


I'm glad to hear an indirect endorsement for Mixcraft. I may buy it down the road even if I do go with Reaper to start. I will be getting two or three VST orchestral suites, so I don't mind that Reaper's bare.




> rrichard63 - To the extent that programming articulation changes is important -- and it sounds like that might be an important consideration here -- Studio One seems to be leading the others right now.


I just checked, and there's a free DAW they produce called Studio One Prime. Until now, I've not come across this in all the research I've done (for free DAWs). I'm definitely checking into it.




> vitocorleone123 - Strongly disagree that it’s the easiest to learn.


Yeah, it really comes down to preference, I guess. 

Thanks!


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## rrichard63 (Jul 4, 2021)

Starkman said:


> I just checked, and there's a free DAW they produce called Studio One Prime. Until now, I've not come across this in all the research I've done (for free DAWs). I'm definitely checking into it.


Studio One Prime does not host third-party instruments and effects. But it might be very useful as a way to learn and evaluate Studio One's workflow before deciding.


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## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

So, Studio One Prime is out: doesn't support any VSTs of any kind, period!


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## easyrider (Jul 4, 2021)

Starkman said:


> So, Studio One Prime is out: doesn't support any VSTs of any kind, period!


Just get pro for a month to try it out


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## antames (Jul 4, 2021)

I second Studio One. Once you have set up your own shortcuts and macros it is honestly unbeatable and so easy to work with. The updates are free only for the version you buy though, e.g. you will receive all of version 5 updates but not version 6.


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## easyrider (Jul 4, 2021)

antames said:


> I second Studio One. Once you have set up your own shortcuts and macros it is honestly unbeatable and so easy to work with. The updates are free only for the version you buy though, e.g. you will receive all of version 5 updates but not version 6.


Studip One remote on iPad for macros is sublime…Press one button…new track created with Kontakt instance and Console One plugin….Dreamy.


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## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

Yeah, I just checked, though, and it's well over three hundred dollars. I'm trying to avoid spending that on a DAW and instead on VSTs, if necessary. Perhaps after trying the demo down the line I'll reconsider, but right now, I have to keep costs down a bit (after buying a Honda 600 Silver Wing and a Yamaha V Star...I'm broke!!)


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## easyrider (Jul 4, 2021)

Starkman said:


> Yeah, I just checked, though, and it's well over three hundred dollars. I'm trying to avoid spending that on a DAW and instead on VSTs, if necessary. Perhaps after trying the demo down the line I'll reconsider, but right now, I have to keep costs down a bit (after buying a Honda 600 Silver Wing and a Yamaha V Star...I'm broke!!)


Rent to own on splice….









Studio One by PreSonus | Splice


Studio One Professional DAW is designed for intuitive end-to-end music production. Try it free for 14 days, then pay $16.99/mo until it's yours.




splice.com


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## AmbientMile (Jul 4, 2021)

Waveform is another option. And there is a free version that should work fine.


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## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

OOOh, yeah, I ran across them.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 4, 2021)

AmbientMile said:


> Waveform is another option. And there is a free version that should work fine.


Pro basic version is $75 on sale right now.


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jul 4, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Reaper is a tech persons paradise… and a normal persons hell 😃
> 
> I’d never recommend it unless you are very technically inclined and like to tinker to make a DAW work for you (and not be as ugly, too).


IMO Reaper is perhaps the easiest option for novices due to how Audio/MIDI/Instrument/AUX tracks are all integrated into one, let alone how easy it is to implement custom routing. It isn't harder to learn either, if anything it's easier because of that. Just because it is customizable doesn't mean you have to tweak it  The options are there, if you need them.

It's a smaller project and considerably cheaper so a poor interface is what you get in return. Whilst not an alternative to a well thought UI, but this theme helps to some degree (there are others too): https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=228983
Although Steinberg and Avid aren't making their UI's any better (too busy not fixing bugs but replacing functional icons with cryptic signs less recognizable than Egyptian hieroglyphs), which is quite important as a factor for new users.

That being said I don't use it for daily work for many reasons, but I know people who do.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 4, 2021)

Rasoul Morteza said:


> IMO Reaper is perhaps the easiest option for novices due to how Audio/MIDI/Instrument/AUX tracks are all integrated into one, let alone how easy it is to implement custom routing. It isn't harder to learn either, if anything it's easier because of that. Just because it is customizable doesn't mean you have to tweak it  The options are there, if you need them.
> 
> It's a smaller project and considerably cheaper so a poor interface is what you get in return. Whilst not an alternative to a well thought UI, but this theme helps to some degree (there are others too): https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=228983
> Although Steinberg and Avid aren't making their UI's any better (too busy not fixing bugs but replacing functional icons with cryptographic signs less recognizable than Egyptian hieroglyphs), which is quite important as a factor for new users.
> ...


I’ve been a UX professional for over two decades. I maintain that Reaper is challenging to use for someone new.

Or maybe it’s just me and my UXiness. I can’t even figure out how to do ANYTHING in Reaper - I try to use it every couple of years, and can’t get anywhere and then go back to one of my other DAWs that were simple to get started with.


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jul 4, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I’ve been a UX professional for over two decades. I maintain that Reaper is challenging to use for someone new.
> 
> Or maybe it’s just me and my UXiness. I can’t even figure out how to do ANYTHING in Reaper - I try to use it every couple of years, and can’t get anywhere and then go back to one of my other DAWs that were simple to get started with.


As I said I totally agree in terms of UI, plus you don't even need one year of UX background to see how little thought was put into Reaper's interface, it's a small project nevertheless. But that is somehow offset by its ease of track implementation and flexibility. It's only a few days worth of learning curve IMO. If anything PT (or slow tools...) for any non-console operation is even less intuitive.


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## rrichard63 (Jul 4, 2021)

Rasoul Morteza said:


> It [Reaper] isn't harder to learn either, if anything it's easier


I think this depends on the individual. If you're technically inclined to begin with, it might well be very easy to learn. If you're not technically inclined, not so much. I'm personally in a gray area between techie and technophobe , and I'm ambivalent about Reaper. I have it, and I know that I could learn to love it eventually -- specifically for the very logical design and routing flexibility that have already been described. But I've put effort into learning other things -- mostly Studio One -- instead.


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## Starkman (Jul 4, 2021)

Well, remember, all I need it for is tweaking VSTis attached to my imported scores form Musescore. Keeping in mind that I'm not going to be composing, recording, doing loops, beats, etc., does that alleviate, to some extent, the concerned difficulty of using Reaper?


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## erodred (Jul 4, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Studip One remote on iPad for macros is sublime…Press one button…new track created with Kontakt instance and Console One plugin….Dreamy.


I did not know that was possible. And I managed to just figure out how to do that. I am a complete newb at this sort of thing. I will vouch for Studio One being very easy but not in a way that makes you feel dumb!


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## allen-garvey (Jul 5, 2021)

Since no one has mentioned it, you might want to look at Studio One artist version. It's $100 full price and periodically goes on sale for $80. It's also included for free in a lot of Presonus products. The main differences between the pro version is that it doesn't include video support, score view or mastering view; you can see the full comparison here https://www.presonus.com/products/studio-one/compare-versions


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## Tralen (Jul 5, 2021)

Starkman said:


> Well, remember, all I need it for is tweaking VSTis attached to my imported scores form Musescore. Keeping in mind that I'm not going to be composing, recording, doing loops, beats, etc., does that alleviate, to some extent, the concerned difficulty of using Reaper?


I think the concerned difficulty of using Reaper is greatly overstated. If you are new to DAWs, the learning difficulties will be with learning DAWs themselves, the differences between them will be minor if you are just starting out.

Once you know the basics you will know how to pick a DAW that fits you.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 5, 2021)

Tralen said:


> I think the concerned difficulty of using Reaper is greatly overstated. If you are new to DAWs, the learning difficulties will be with learning DAWs themselves, the differences between them will be minor if you are just starting out.
> 
> Once you know the basics you will know how to pick a DAW that fits you.


Reaper truly is harder than other DAWs to get started with (admittedly it’s been 6 months since I last saw it so am not sure if they’ve invested any effort in the new user experience yet). It’s not overstated.

From everything I’ve read, those who do persevere AND respond well to the UX are richly rewarded with a stable, flexible, and powerful DAW. This aspect should also be mentioned.

I didn’t see the ROI in terms of time and frustration, personally. I want a tool that i get along with easily, so it gets out of the way. Reaper isn’t good in this area for me. I also want stable, where S1 isn’t good for me and, presumably, Reaper would be - but Waveform is now stable enough and gets out of my way and I “click” with the interface, which is why I’ll likely go back to it from S1.


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## Tim_Wells (Jul 5, 2021)

Almost any powerful DAW is going to have a steep learning curve. I wouldn't make that a road block.

Just figure out what you want to do. Google it. Make a note of it and move on. In a little time you'll be rockin that DAW.

If I were in your shoes I'd go with Reaper (and I'm not a user). It's a very powerful DAW for not much money and has a wealth of on-line resources and very helpful user support base.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 5, 2021)

All these DAWs have a free trial period. Pick a few from this thread, use the demo, see which one you get along with yourself.

People will piss and moan back and forth for months in this thread and you won’t be any closer to a consensus or direction than you would be trying them for yourself.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

Yeah, I made my choice last night (PST!) I am going to go with Reaper; the support available alone is worth it, and I'm happy with what I have seen of it so far.
So thanks all for the input. I do, do, do appreciate it!


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> All these DAWs have a free trial period. Pick a few from this thread, use the demo, see which one you get along with yourself.
> 
> People will piss and moan back and forth for months in this thread and you won’t be any closer to a consensus or direction than you would be trying them for yourself.


Ah, true! I've thought about doing some of the demos for other DAWs, and I may as yet, but in the long haul I'll be going with Reaper. Again, the support system (videos, articles and community) is a real necessity for me, so that works well.


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## Quasar (Jul 5, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Reaper is a tech persons paradise… and a normal persons hell 😃
> 
> I’d never recommend it unless you are very technically inclined and like to tinker to make a DAW work for you (and not be as ugly, too).


No. This is often asserted, but is not true. Reaper may be a tech person's paradise, but it's simplicity and ease of use out of the box is also one of its strengths. You do not have to go deep into its customizations if you don't want to.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

In all honesty, I probably haven't read as many reviews and posts about any other DAW being sometimes overwhelming and/or frustrating because of so many options and customizations as I have about Reaper (and I've read a lot of late!). This doesn't mean that Reaper is therefore harder to learn per se, but if one does utilize a lot of the customization, it tends to be (again, from what I've read) that it's easy to forget how to do certain things after a prolong absence from the program.

For me, I hope to alleviate some of that burden by just sticking with many of the defaults. My use of Reaper will be quite repetitive, forming habits I need, without wandering off into wilderness of "Oh, what's this do?" and "Hey, I can customize this and that!" Nope! Just keep it simple is my motto.

We'll see.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 5, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> All these DAWs have a free trial period. Pick a few from this thread, use the demo, see which one you get along with yourself.
> 
> People will piss and moan back and forth for months in this thread and you won’t be any closer to a consensus or direction than you would be trying them for yourself.


People definitely need to try them. However, I was not "pissing and moaning". That'd be like me saying your music (or whatever it is you do for a living) is akin to listening to someone piss and moan.



Quasar said:


> No. This is often asserted, but is not true. Reaper may be a tech person's paradise, but it's simplicity and ease of use out of the box is also one of its strengths.


No. This is often asserted be people who love/"get" Reaper, but is not true - the new user experience of Reaper is NOT one of its strengths vs. the competition. As I said, get past that point, if you care to, and everything indicates that it's a great DAW. Reaper has many strengths from everything I've read over the years - it'd be better to highlight those, instead.

I’ll bow out here as it’s not my intent to turn this into a battle. I don’t expect strangers on the internet to believe me.


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## Tralen (Jul 5, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Reaper truly is harder than other DAWs to get started with (admittedly it’s been 6 months since I last saw it so am not sure if they’ve invested any effort in the new user experience yet). It’s not overstated.


I think it may be harder for people that have experience with other DAWs, but if you are a beginner, Reaper simplifies a lot of concepts.

Things like having different midi/audio tracks, stereo/mono tracks, routing, etc, don't even have to be considered. The majority of things you want to do with audio, you can do just by right clicking the items, while in other DAWs you would have to learn a set of tools.

I had a lot more trouble learning Digital Performer and Cubase.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 5, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> People definitely need to try them. However, I was not "pissing and moaning". That'd be like me saying your music (or whatever it is you do for a living) is akin to listening to someone piss and moan.


I wasn’t referring to anyone specifically, more to what these threads typically turn into.


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## Quasar (Jul 5, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> People definitely need to try them. However, I was not "pissing and moaning". That'd be like me saying your music (or whatever it is you do for a living) is akin to listening to someone piss and moan.
> 
> 
> No. This is often asserted be people who love/"get" Reaper, but is not true - the new user experience of Reaper is NOT one of its strengths vs. the competition. As I said, get past that point, if you care to, and everything indicates that it's a great DAW. Reaper has many strengths from everything I've read over the years - it'd be better to highlight those, instead.


When I first tried to use a DAW, I could not wrap my head around it conceptually. I had no frame of reference for what I was looking at, no audio engineering hardware experience to compare it with, and had a false start with Cakewalk Sonar. Looking back, I don't think I even knew the difference between audio and MIDI at that point. I was just a piano player trying to record what I could play...

...After frustrating myself with Sonar, someone recommended Reaper. I spent maybe an hour looking at some introductory tutorial material, learned that there is only one kind of track in Reaper, which I could understand. I also learned that any track could be routed to any other track, which I could also understand. Then I learned that if you hit the little red button thingy on a track it would record, but if you didn't it would play back without recording. I learned to load FX, assign I/O & channels to tracks on the first day because, unlike with Sonar, it made intuitive conceptual sense to me.

It was probably some months later before I even knew what the Action List was, much less began to customize anything. But I could use it to record, render and save with ease. Reaper is great for beginners.


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## robgb (Jul 5, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> If you decide on a DAW without a monthly subscription, that would be Reaper. A one time $80 payment gets you everything you require.


$60, not $80.


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## robgb (Jul 5, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Reaper is a tech persons paradise… and a normal persons hell 😃


No. All you have to do is watch Kenny Gioia's videos on the Reaper website. He explains it all quite nicely. In all honesty, if you're a complete novice, ANY DAW has a tough learning curve.


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## robgb (Jul 5, 2021)

Starkman said:


> Yeah, I made my choice last night (PST!) I am going to go with Reaper; the support available alone is worth it, and I'm happy with what I have seen of it so far.
> So thanks all for the input. I do, do, do appreciate it!


GREAT choice. It took me several DAWs (and dollars) to get there.


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## MarcusD (Jul 5, 2021)

Here's my 2 pence, probably won't find it of great help. But I'm currently working with 3 DAWs.

* Cubase Pro - Know this DAW very well and been using it as the main, for years. Very powerful, great blend between recording and MIDI editing features. Has a history of buggy updates and some tedious work arounds for certain things. But on the whole, has a lot to offer.

* Studio One - Been using this for almost a year and it's by far the easiest DAW I've worked with, has pretty much caught up with Cubase in terms of features and does a better job of them in some cases. Has a great history of providing generous updates that pack a lot of new features into them, that are free.

* Logic - Been using for couple weeks. First impression; the included FX and instruments sound amazing. Not that the others are bad, but the first thing that jumped out at me was the quality of their included instruments and FX. The workflow is also simple, found some things jarring that reminded me of pro-tools, but so far so good. Yet to dive deeper with it.

If I had to choose based on current experiences, I'd go with Studio One.


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## Artemi (Jul 5, 2021)

I remember that I've been a little frustrated with Reaper at first because some of it settings were totally off with me by default, and as I beginner you don't now much about this stuff.
But once you find and tweak them you're good to go.

A big plus is that there is a large community, so if you have a question there is a great chance that the answer is already on the forum, and if you in doubt you still can ask it there.

Another big plus is that with SWS and Reapack you can customise almost anything with shortcuts and mouse modifiers. Phew, never knew that I will miss these functions in other software programs.. 

p.s. the only con is that you will expect any other software to behave similar to Reaper in terms of use, and of course realise how do you get used to your own customised workflow.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

> Quasar - When I first tried to use a DAW, I could not wrap my head around it conceptually. I had no frame of reference for what I was looking at, no audio engineering hardware experience to compare it with


I'm right where you were! And probably the greatest discovery I have made so far in all of my research (not opening any DAW as of yet) was to find how I would deal with this. As an old-school music guy, I only understood written music, notes and such. When I started dicovering DAWs, I was, like, what? How is any of this going to make sense? And then it DAWned on me (sorry!). Reprogram my thinking: approach a DAW not with notes in mind but merely the manipulation of sound. That's all I'm going to be doing is manipulating sound. Learn the ways to do that, keeping "notes" and such out of the game and..viola! I got it!

Suddenly, now looking at videos of DAWs, going through Kenny Gioia's "This is Reaper" series and such, it started falling into place. I can say one thing now: this removed a huge barrier between me and the world of DAWs (really, the world of sound). Further, Reaper doesn't look nearly as "hard" as it did initially—that's not to say it won't be challenging to learn, but at least I have a frame of reference now, and I can wrap my head around the concept of DAWs.

Just thought I'd share this because you (Quasar) really hit home on something I was struggling with.


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## robgb (Jul 5, 2021)

Starkman said:


> I'm right where you were! And probably the greatest discovery I have made so far in all of my research (not opening any DAW as of yet) was to find how I would deal with this. As an old-school music guy, I only understood written music, notes and such. When I started dicovering DAWs, I was, like, what? How is any of this going to make sense? And then it DAWned on me (sorry!). Reprogram my thinking: approach a DAW not with notes in mind but merely the manipulation of sound. That's all I'm going to be doing is manipulating sound. Learn the ways to do that, keeping "notes" and such out of the game and..viola! I got it!
> 
> Suddenly, now looking at videos of DAWs, going through Kenny Gioia's "This is Reaper" series and such, it started falling into place. I can say one thing now: this removed a huge barrier between me and the world of DAWs (really, the world of sound). Further, Reaper doesn't look nearly as "hard" as it did initially—that's not to say it won't be challenging to learn, but at least I have a frame of reference now, and I can wrap my head around the concept of DAWs.
> 
> Just thought I'd share this because you (Quasar) really hit home on something I was struggling with.


After awhile, looking at MIDI data on the piano roll becomes as familiar as reading sheet music.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

@MarcusD - I was just looking over Studio One's options. As I understand it, the Basic pack doesn't come with the DAW Essentials that the Pro version comes with, and I think those Essentials might be something useful to have down the road; however, the Pro back is into it for a few hundred bucks. And would a demo give me enough of a feel for Studio One without those Essentials to play around with and see if I need them?

@Artime - Yup, that's what I've read more than a few times: Reaper's customization is just that: Reaper's customization. I understand Cakewalk (and a few other DAWs) offer some good configuration options, but man, once you've got Reaper more and more configured, it can be (but not necessarily is) a double-edged sword. I'm going to play that aspect of Reaper very carefully so that I can try other DAWs prepared with that thinking.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

> robgp - After awhile, looking at MIDI data on the piano roll becomes as familiar as reading sheet music.


I've thought about that, but it's all so new to me (and still weird!). But I'm open.


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## Quasar (Jul 5, 2021)

Starkman said:


> I'm right where you were! And probably the greatest discovery I have made so far in all of my research (not opening any DAW as of yet) was to find how I would deal with this. As an old-school music guy, I only understood written music, notes and such. When I started dicovering DAWs, I was, like, what? How is any of this going to make sense? And then it DAWned on me (sorry!). Reprogram my thinking: approach a DAW not with notes in mind but merely the manipulation of sound. That's all I'm going to be doing is manipulating sound. Learn the ways to do that, keeping "notes" and such out of the game and..viola! I got it!
> 
> Suddenly, now looking at videos of DAWs, going through Kenny Gioia's "This is Reaper" series and such, it started falling into place. I can say one thing now: this removed a huge barrier between me and the world of DAWs (really, the world of sound). Further, Reaper doesn't look nearly as "hard" as it did initially—that's not to say it won't be challenging to learn, but at least I have a frame of reference now, and I can wrap my head around the concept of DAWs.
> 
> Just thought I'd share this because you (Quasar) really hit home on something I was struggling with.


Great post, shows an astute self-realization about where you're at and what the learning curve involves. Once you get used to the paradigm and become comfortable with basic DAW operations, there is a place for thinking in terms of notes again, and you can even incorporate standard music notation (Reaper's MIDI editor has a notation view as well as a piano roll view) if you wish. But getting an understanding of the basic layout is the crucial first step. It's like driving a car: If you had to memorize by rote the difference between the steering wheel and the brakes, driving would be too difficult. But we don't memorize it. Instead, we "understand" why the steering wheel turns the car and why the brakes cause it to stop. It makes intuitive, rational sense to us even if we're not auto mechanics who have a thorough understanding of the brake line design.

And yes, Kenny's videos are a gold mine. I think he even has a set of intro videos marked "Watch These 1st!" or something to give you a starting point. There is also Jon's Reaper Blog on YouTube, and he's great too, but he's far more advanced and geeky, for power users who already know the basics. He goes over my head sometimes. 

IMHO the top of the hill is fairly early on in the learning process, and once you get there your knowledge will snowball, exponentially expanding in size, down the hill. Good luck!


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

Quasar, I...am excited! I am. I'm looking forward to the journey, and since I had that self-realization, it's not nearly as daunting...it's even welcoming what's to be learned, easy or difficult. First, though, I have to finish (yea, Lord, we do beseech thee) going through a course I'm doing (again) on Musescore. I was a way from it for a while, and, well, old timers set in! But after that, it's all systems go.

Hey, thanks!


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## TonalDynamics (Jul 5, 2021)

Starkman said:


> After three or four years absence from music, I'm re-researching DAWs, namely, to do one thing: bring into the DAW what I write in Musescore (orchestral, jazz and some choir) in order to attach VSTis and then tweak for a good output—Musescore, as of yet, doesn't support anything but soundfonts. I won't be doing any writing/composing or recording with the DAW. I just want to get a reasonably good outup verses what I get from Musescore. This is for personal enjoyment and, perhaps, having our local community bands and choirs be able to hear what I've written before they perform it.
> 
> At the top of the list of DAWs is Reaper. Although I'm not a tech-type person, the pros are that there are numerous videos and a good support system. At first I though I'd pass on it because I understand it's learning curve can be a bit daunting due to its vast configurable nature. Then again, I thought I'm only going to be using it for one purpose, so maybe Reaper will work. Otherwise, I've looked at Cakewalk, Mixcraft and MuTools Mulab. I don't want to fork out the cash for DAWs like Cubase and such; I don't think I'll need to do that in order to accomplish my particular use of a DAW. I'd rather put some cash into the VSTis.
> 
> ...


To echo what many have said here, I would not recommend Reaper just based on the user experience alone: The U.I. is total crap.

Studio One is what I use for the last 10 years and absolutely love it, and with the frequency and quality of updates of late, in particular with respect to MIDI and score importing/exporting as well as many other composer specific features which they are slated to continue delivering updates for, it's a no brainer to me at this point for composers (unless of course you are a legacy Cubase user, which many are)

Not that Cubase is better anymore by any stretch but if you already know it in and out it's might not be worth switching and relearning the workflow

EDIT: Also if price is a concern, Studio One has a subscription model for 15$ a month to Presonus Sphere, which comes with loads of extra goodies as well as all their plugins, Notion, and access to the the Samples/Loops on the Sphere cloud.


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 5, 2021)

I agree with others that reaper’s GUI is complete crap. I don’t care that there are hours and hours of videos showing how to navigate a crappy GUI.

But it sounds like you have a lot more time in your hands then you do money, so reaper might be the perfect fit. Obviously some people get along with it just fine but my observation is they tend to have a certain mindset that appreciates all the customization possible regardless of the mentally handicapped interface. Good luck


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

@TonalDynamics - I'm going to have to say that for me I'd go with Cakewalk before forking out the cash for Studio One. A monthly payment plan...yeah, could work, but unnecessary with Cakewalk availble for free.

@Dewdman42 - See, Reaper's UI is almost (but not quite) perfect for me. On top of not being visually oriented, I'm a very plain vanilla person, so Reaper is really nice. When things are too busy visually, I don't do well.

On the other hand, Waveform Tracktion is too plain...well, not plain so much as everything is too similar, little demarcation among the various tools. Cakewalk is quite nice to look at but a bit too much (though I'd get used to it if I had to). 

And, as I've posted already, I'm really only after getting the job done. What doesn't need to be customized for me doesn't get customized. And as for scripts? Oh, lord, not in this lifetime. I am SO not a programmer/script person, and I'm not taking someone else's script, shoving it into Reaper and then blubbering like an idiot because it doesn't work quite the way I want it to, and I have no idea how to fix it...and I don't want to know how to fixt it!

I'll go the long way (a few extra mouse clicks, a few extra this and that) and be better in the long run.


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## tack (Jul 5, 2021)

Recalling my very first experiences with Reaper many years ago, I struggled to get any sort of sound out of a VSTi. Creating a track was easy enough. Figuring out how to load an instrument took some clicking around but I sussed it out without much fanfare. But then ... nothing.

Aha, ok, there's a record button on the track. Click it and ... nothing.

Crank up the volume and hear feedback: oh, ok, it's recording from my microphone, not MIDI. Spot that the input source for the track is Stereo, change it to all MIDI inputs and all MIDI channels, feeling very confident as I strike a note and ... nothing.

After much wailing and gnashing of teeth, I discover through settings that my MIDI controller was not configured to receive input in Reaper's Preferences. Clickety click.

Sound! _Finally_. It's been nearly a decade, but I think that took nearly half an hour of fussing. And I was extraordinarily irritated by the inscrutability of it all.

I persevered and remain a Reaper user to this day, but I certainly understand those who say their initial experiences with Reaper scared them away.


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## Al Maurice (Jul 5, 2021)

It all depends whether you want to hit the ground early.

Reaper has a minimal set of plugins and requires quite considerable effort up front to get it configured to your needs.

Cubase is like a swiss army knife for orchestral programming, but has quite a steep learning curve. You can try the elements version if you like without a dongle.

Studio One is great but the X.0 versions often tend to be buggy, so I tried to avoid those. I have been known to revert back to a previous version, whilst they fix the feature set. You can either try prime without VST support although unlike many other DAWs it supports unlimited tracks straight out of the box. If you like to try a demo, just sign up an account with Presonus, then you can download it from there and run it as a fully working version for 30 days, which is plenty of time to evaluate it.

Artist comes with many of their audio interfaces and other kit, so that's another way to get it too.

Otherwise as has been stated, you can go with Presonus Sphere that way you also get access to all their plugins and sound libraries right from inside the DAW.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

Thanks Al. I think, though, that the cost of Studio One is the deal breaker for me right now. In that I'm starting from scratch, I'd have to do a lot of research for good vids, articles, references, etc in order to make the time in the demo useful. Maybe down the road but not right now. So, hitting the ground early is what I'll have to do. (I've already obtained two orchestral VST suites to be used, so that's a starting plus.)


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## TonalDynamics (Jul 5, 2021)

Starkman said:


> @TonalDynamics - I'm going to have to say that for me I'd go with Cakewalk before forking out the cash for Studio One. A monthly payment plan...yeah, could work, but unnecessary with Cakewalk availble for free.
> 
> @Dewdman42 - See, Reaper's UI is almost (but not quite) perfect for me. On top of not being visually oriented, I'm a very plain vanilla person, so Reaper is really nice. When things are too busy visually, I don't do well.
> 
> ...


Honestly based on what you've just said, I still say to stay away from Reaper.

I'd go so far as to say that Reaper is a DAW made for 'programmers', or people who love to tinker with scripts and whatnot.

That bill doesn't fit most of us musicians though, so if your main goal is, as you say, to 'just get the job done', I'll stick to my guns and recommend S1 again.

And as far as a 'busy' U.I. is concerned, there's a fine line between busy and not showing you the tools/information you need to be able to see. Studio One has a truly great interface IMO, which can still be customized and above all features drag n' drop wherever possible (big time saver)

Bottom line, this is an important choice to get right. You are looking for a tool which will serve as the best bridge between you and the music you want to make, and you will be learning that specific platform for many years. If you're doing mainly composer-y things with sample libraries and MIDI with lots of keyswitches, do yourself a favor and just do the Studio One sub. Reaper is known to be a tweaker's DAW, highly customizable but also not as consistently developed or user-friendly at all. Be prepared to spend time learning the ins and outs.

Doing same with Reaper is certainly possible, but be prepared to play around with scripts for certain functionality that is already baked into other DAWs.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

@
TonalDynamics -​What about something like Cakewalk (to avoid the cost issue) to learn the DAW environment. I mean, I could end up liking it and staying with it or going with something like Studio One down the road.


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## TonalDynamics (Jul 5, 2021)

Starkman said:


> @
> TonalDynamics -​What about something like Cakewalk (to avoid the cost issue) to learn the DAW environment. I mean, I could end up liking it and staying with it or going with something like Studio One down the road.


I used Cakewalk as my first daw a long time ago (I want to say '09 ish?) and as a beginner, it worked just fine for me as a young guitarist/vocalist recording my own song ideas. Back in those days I hadn't yet gotten into orchestral stuff yet though, so my usage of MIDI was quite limited.

AFAIK Cakewalk includes a lot of plugins and vst with the DAW (the Z3TA+ 2 is an excellent-sounding waveshaping synth which has stood the test of time and has a wealth of presets made for it), so that is a definite plus.

My knowledge is quite dated however, maybe some others can chime in about the more current state of development for CW.

Cheers and good luck!


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## babylonwaves (Jul 5, 2021)

just download a DAW and try it out. you will not find a consent by posting here, there are to many different opinions and many of those are valid. for somebody but that somebody doesn't need to to be you. why don't you start with CW? it doesn't cost you anything and it's not a demo version.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

Okay, thanks.


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## Trash Panda (Jul 5, 2021)

Little known secret (as an owner and user of both Studio One and Reaper): Reaper has better MIDI functionality, especially in multi channel and CC lane drawing/manipulation, than most of the other DAWs as of version 6. The score editor is more powerful than Studio One’s as well, but that will likely change pretty soon with the rate of updates S1 is getting on that front.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

Good to know. As it stands, I won't be paying for or doing a sub for S1. So Reaper it is right now with Cakewalk pulling up the rear.


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## Quasar (Jul 5, 2021)

Starkman said:


> Quasar, I...am excited! I am. I'm looking forward to the journey, and since I had that self-realization, it's not nearly as daunting...it's even welcoming what's to be learned, easy or difficult. First, though, I have to finish (yea, Lord, we do beseech thee) going through a course I'm doing (again) on Musescore. I was a way from it for a while, and, well, old timers set in! But after that, it's all systems go.
> 
> Hey, thanks!


Don't be put off by all of the UI horror stories. Reapers GUI is fully legible, functional, usable and perfectly fine. Whether it's "pretty" or not is subjective. Most of the complaints come down to some of the dialog boxes looking like (OMG! GASP!) the Windows OS or MacOS UI! Besides, most of it is skinnable. There is a whole section of the forums devoted to theming, and many, many people have offered their themes for free. You can also simplify the menus to your heart's content if you want. 

BUT, you don't have to do any of that. Many people are happy with the default interface.

I've customized my theme over time so that it's quite different than the default, but this has been for making incremental improvements to my own workflow prefs. It's not and never has been mission critical.


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## Starkman (Jul 5, 2021)

Thanks, Quasar. I'll never know until I try it (the case with all DAWs). And as far as the GU goes...wait, did you say...it looks like a...Win...Windows OS? That's it! I quit. I'm selling my house! Actually, as I think I stated above, I like the UI. Suits me just fine.

...posting House for Sale notice in yard... reason? Reaper UI looks (double gasp!) like Windows and maybe even Mac!


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## Toecutter (Jul 5, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> Reaper has better MIDI functionality, especially in multi channel and CC lane drawing/manipulation





Trash Panda said:


> The score editor is more powerful than Studio One’s as well


I gotta say that I tried using Reaper several times and found it very unintuitive (I come from Logic and Cubase) but these are features that would make me grind my way into it. 

Are there videos that show how better the multi-channel and CC stuff is done in Reaper?

And the score editor from a MIDI composer point of view? I like to play the parts and still have a readable score. Can I tell Reaper to "lock" the score view and ignore small midi notes adjustments for playback reasons? I was told Digital Performer does that but it's broken beyond repair so it's not much of use.


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## PaulieDC (Jul 5, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Studio One.
> 
> Incredible workflow
> Easy to work with
> ...


Absolutely. 5 installs for the Pro license and you only need a username and password. Log on to your account to remove a PC if you need to. It's that easy.

*WAKE UP STEINBERG AND VSL*


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## Artemi (Jul 5, 2021)

Reaper is not made only for programmers, it just allows some coding so you could customize some of its functions if you have skills.

I think that people who are saying that about Reaper are the ones who didn't have patience, and I can probably understand that, they probably just get used to something else.

You can download Reapack and easily search for the script/action/function you need in a special browser menu within the Reaper. The important thing is to import certain repositories (link to a website) that will enable you to browse thru lots of different functions/scripts.
And you install those that you want just inside the Reaper, and it appears in the menu right away.



p.s. Logic is very cool with all the plugins and stuff, but no ripple editing? maaaan


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## Trash Panda (Jul 5, 2021)

People who think Reaper isn’t user friendly should spend some time with Pro Tools. It’s the DAW equivalent of taking a cheese grater to your genitalia.


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## TonalDynamics (Jul 7, 2021)

Quasar said:


> Don't be put off by all of the UI horror stories. Reapers GUI is fully legible, functional, usable and perfectly fine. Whether it's "pretty" or not is subjective. Most of the complaints come down to some of the dialog boxes looking like (OMG! GASP!) the Windows OS or MacOS UI!


More like, UI elements that look like they came out of Windows ('95) 

But hey, if it works for the user that's all that matters at the end of the day.

Best DAW is the one that lets you work fast, and stays OUT of the way in the process


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## Quasar (Jul 7, 2021)

TonalDynamics said:


> More like, *UI elements that look like they came out of Windows ('95)*
> 
> But hey, if it works for the user that's all that matters at the end of the day.
> 
> Best DAW is the one that lets you work fast, and stays OUT of the way in the process


Or XP, which is the complaint point of reference I usually hear. But GUIs are not milk. They don't turn bad and stinky if you keep them around too long. I've never understood the "dated" concern in the digital world. 

Sure, if a new UI or feature-set comes out that is functionally more useful than what existed before, I get that. But if it's just style, like Aero vs. flat or whatever is the "in" look at a given moment, I couldn't care less.


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## Starkman (Jul 7, 2021)

> Quasar said:
> 
> 
> > But if it's just style, like Aero vs. flat or whatever is the "in" look at a given moment, I couldn't care less.
> ...


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## easyrider (Jul 14, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> People who think Reaper isn’t user friendly should spend some time with Pro Tools. It’s the DAW equivalent of taking a cheese grater to your genitalia.


But it’s the industry standard 🤣


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## Trash Panda (Jul 14, 2021)

Toecutter said:


> I gotta say that I tried using Reaper several times and found it very unintuitive (I come from Logic and Cubase) but these are features that would make me grind my way into it.
> 
> Are there videos that show how better the multi-channel and CC stuff is done in Reaper?
> 
> And the score editor from a MIDI composer point of view? I like to play the parts and still have a readable score. Can I tell Reaper to "lock" the score view and ignore small midi notes adjustments for playback reasons? I was told Digital Performer does that but it's broken beyond repair so it's not much of use.


After playing with the Notion integration with Studio One, I think it would be more suited for your needs. The notation to articulation implementation is very cool. When importing from Notion, the note lengths in the score view stay the same length if you change their length in the piano roll. Haven’t tried seeing if that happens if you import song XML or do the notation in the S1 score view from scratch.


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## David Baran (Jul 15, 2021)

MarcusD said:


> Here's my 2 pence, probably won't find it of great help. But I'm currently working with 3 DAWs.
> 
> * Cubase Pro - Know this DAW very well and been using it as the main, for years. Very powerful, great blend between recording and MIDI editing features. Has a history of buggy updates and some tedious work arounds for certain things. But on the whole, has a lot to offer.
> 
> ...


If you don't mind me asking how is Cubase compared to Studio One in terms of scoring to Video/Film vs just traditional composing? I'm a Reaper user thinking of switching to either Cubase or Studio One. My main reasons for wanting to switch is better UI and better midi/piano roll features/workflow. 

Also I know that for electronic music the go to is usually Ableton or FL Studio and for sound design probably ABleton or Bitwig but how would you rate Cubase vs Studio One for this type of work as well (electronic/synth/sound design)? I keep reading how Cubase is great for orchestral composing but I'm curious how it compares to others as well as Studio One for electronic music creation and how it compares in terms of instruments/synths/overall package.


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## robgb (Jul 15, 2021)

Still don't get why people say Reaper's UI is crap. Because the built-in fx aren't prettified? Don't use them. There are plenty of pretty vsts out there.

Then again, if you're on Windows, the Windows whole UI looks like crap, so...


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## el-bo (Jul 15, 2021)

Tralen said:


> I think the concerned difficulty of using Reaper is greatly overstated. If you are new to DAWs, the learning difficulties will be with learning DAWs themselves, the differences between them will be minor if you are just starting out.


And the newb won't have the experience of other DAW to compare to, so should be easier to take at face value.


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