# Two new articles published!



## Waywyn (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey everyone,

I recently published two new articles. Check them out if you like and I hope you enjoy!

arranging, mixing and mastering ... or ... about kings and cooks!
http://www.alexpfeffer.net/?p=2259

the "atheist" approach on composing
http://www.alexpfeffer.net/?p=2354


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## Ashermusic (Jan 12, 2011)

Waywyn @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I recently published two new articles. Check them out if you like and I hope you enjoy!
> 
> ...



Good articles, Alex, with interesting ideas well expressed.

2 thoughts however: In the first article, you tend to ramble. Clarity is important in articles so a little editing might be in order.

Secondly, I totally disagree with your definition of talent. While it is a good formula for successful exploitation of talent, I know a ton of talented people who lack at least 1 or 2 of what you listed: Interest + Focus + Endurance and Patience!

Which is why they probably will never be as successful as they should be, given their level of native talent.


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## Waywyn (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey Jay,

thanks for your interest. Please let me know were I am rambling in my first article. Maybe I am not aware of it.

Regarding Talent:
So you are saying that you know people who lack of one or several on these points?

So I am just asking:
How can someone do something without becoming or being interested in something?
Can they play guitar just by grabbing it? Weren't they interested in learning it? How can you learn music theory if you are not interested at all?

How can someone be good at something if one never doesfocus?
Focus is a very important point. Okay, one gets distracted here and there, but if you can't keep up with being interested and focus on e.g. sight reading. It is impossible to learn. So I am asking. Do you know guys who were just doing it the first time they checked out a piece of score sheet? Even if, they focused ... but they were able to do it in less time.

How can someone be good at something if he or she doesn't stick with it?
Do you know people who were able to compose after listening to a bunch of soundtracks? How can you learn to play e.g. a violin 16th note arpeggio on tempo 120? I am not the most "talented" guitar player but technically I managed to play as fast as Satriani - after 5 years!!

Okay, I dig what you mean with patience and this would be the most replacable point. However, if you don't have patience with learning the circle of fifth and make it use in your music, how can you learn something like this?


Generally I am aware that there are people learning something faster than others. As said, maybe they had a musical family and everybody was playing an instrument and the parents were able to make it interesting to their child. Maybe the boys fingers are already long and he is generally paying more attention to something. This makes it easier to achieve a goal ... but in my opinion there is no God given or Talent waiting to be unleashed. If one is very good at something, he is simply more interested and eager by reaching his/her goals.


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## Waywyn (Jan 12, 2011)

Just for the record and as an add:

With success, I don't mean financial success or wealth.
I am talking of the success of being able to achieve the skill to e.g. play a major/minor scale, writing a good score, composing in wholetone or melodic minor etc. ... I wasn't thinking about money, being famous or being aò    ›™    ¡º    ¢    Ä™    Äê    çK    ç˜    òˆ    òª    >    ¸ 


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## Ashermusic (Jan 12, 2011)

Waywyn @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> Hey Jay,
> 
> thanks for your interest. Please let me know were I am rambling in my first article. Maybe I am not aware of it.
> 
> ...



Simply not true in my experience.Yes I am saying that I have known people who can i.e sit down at the piano, because it interests them, and in a half hours practice make more progress than I made in 1 1/2 hours.THAT is talent. However, because they lacked the focus and discipline to do the hard work, never became really good pianists.

I also knew talented songwriters who could turn out the beginnings of a catchy tune. THAT is talent. Because however they were unwilling to do the hard work of learning not to simply paraphrase in the third verse what they already said in the first verse, did not become really accomplished songwriters.

Talent is IMHO nothing more than the innate ability to do something well almost effortlessly. Developing that talent to be either an artist or a craftsman is a different thing.

Using myself as an example I was a naturally talented singer from an early age, making money singing by the age of 11. I was NOT a naturally talented pianist but I wanted to play well badly enough that I did the hard work to become a good one.


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## cc64 (Jan 12, 2011)

Nice Topic, age old debate IMO.

My oldest daughter started the violin at 6 or 7 years old with the Suzuki method(a method that encourages learning by ear the same way we learn other languages).

After 6 months we would come back from her Suzuki concerts and she would play all the counterpoint that she had eared for the first time as the older student's had been playing parts that were added to the melodies she had learned during the year etc... 

After 1 1/2 year she got to a point where she picked up both parts of Bach's Concerto for 2 violins(Vivace) by ear in a few hours. She did not play them well because technically she wasn't as good. Why? She did not like to practice at all, she never got to learn to play the vibrato because of this. After 2 -3 years i got tired of forcing her to do her 15 minutes a day and she eventually stopped playing... 

I think she had 100 times more raw talent than me but maybe i had more drive...In my opinion you CAN be very talented but too lazy(maybe i should say unmotivated, don't want to scold my daughter on a public forum after all  ) to develop it.

Claude


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## Waywyn (Jan 12, 2011)

@Jay: The thing is, we know that every human being is different.
Everybody got a specific amount of already connected synapses at a certain age. Some people can remember things better than others. Some people are excellent in remembering things or being able to connect logical functions faster than others. Is this talent? Some people got short or long fingers? Is this talent? Certainly no 

It is just the countless differences of the human race and each individuals functions.


To me the problem is, if someone is able to connect logical stuff, got lots of working synapses inside his brain (let's call it intelligence), is able to remember lots of things and sitting at a piano and is able to get first results within 30 minutes. Is this talent? If YES, then this guy is talented at everything which needs to above named abilities. Meaning this guy is talented at everything! (and others are not talented at all). He also try it with math, astronomy or gardening. He would be "talented" everywhere ... but again, I believe that there is no talent, there is just more smart, more open, more passionate, more willing etc.

To me this is the discouraging thing. Some people tell others, they got no talent. Some kids hear that his/her classmate got talent or is blessed. Isn't this discouraging towards to kid who listens to all this?

Person Y who needs a bit longer can be a much more excellent guitar player if he shows more endurance and focus than that first guy X. Yes, having specific abilities because of whatever reasons (food, sports, reading vs. tv, burgers, lazy, life as a kid, parents). In the end guy Y might need 10 years and X would need only 5. But so what? Guy X does NOT have less talent.


@Claude: To me this is the perfect example!! 
Let me ask you a few questions.
Did you daughter came to you and said, that she wants to learn the Suzuki method, or was it you supporting her?
Why did she play the violin? Apparently you were already doing music to this time. Were you suggesting violin?

You said she had 100x times more talent. But maybe she had damn good conditions and interest in music because of you.

The natural talent, the blessing and the god given ability I am talking about is to give your daughter a violin, come back after a days and she is already able to play a major scale or a few lines of a piece of music. She figured out by herself without knowing the instrument. She is able to play a C major scale and never heard of how to construct it. It is not possible and doesn't exist.

Anway, thanks a lot for your input. I think the confusion is right there.
That I am defining talent with something which is already inside specific people provided by a higher power or genes, ... while you guys talking of talent as the ability to learn easier and faster and more naturally.


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## synergy543 (Jan 12, 2011)

Waywyn said:


> Talent is nothing more than (and let’s express it with a more or less boring scientific formula):
> Interest + Focus + Endurance and Patience!





Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> Simply not true in my experience.Yes I am saying that I have known people who can i.e sit down at the piano, because it interests them, and in a half hours practice make more progress than I made in 1 1/2 hours.THAT is talent. However, because they lacked the focus and discipline to do the hard work, never became really good pianists.


I have to agree with Jay here too. 

I can be struggling with something all day long here, then my wife comes dancing along, picks up the music, hammers it out on the piano (sight-reading) and then heads back to the kitchen to do some cooking. Meanwhile, I feel like the Coyote that was just pummeled by the Roadrunner. She's immensely more talented but seems to prefer spending her time in the kitchen. Crazy huh?
(which one?)


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## cc64 (Jan 12, 2011)

Waywyn @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> @Claude: To me this is the perfect example!!
> Let me ask you a few questions.
> Did you daughter came to you and said, that she wants to learn the Suzuki method, or was it you supporting her?
> Why did she play the violin? Apparently you were already doing music to this time. Were you suggesting violin?
> ...



Hey Alex,

It's true that she had a musician dad but so did her brother who also took violin and although he was pretty talented he did not have 1/4 the facility that is sister had to learn music or transcribe it by ear . Same parents, same encouragement and he actually liked to practice. Mysterious if you ask me, but that's what i define as one person having more raw talent than the other, what they do with it depends solely on them. More so in the context of 2 persons having pretty much the same chances by being brought up in the same family.



Waywyn @ Wed Jan 12 said:


> The natural talent, the blessing and the god given ability I am talking about is to give your daughter a violin, come back after a days and she is already able to play a major scale or a few lines of a piece of music. She figured out by herself without knowing the instrument. She is able to play a C major scale and never heard of how to construct it. It is not possible and doesn't exist.



That would be more of a child prodigy to me. Maybe we mean the same thing? It could be just semantics. o-[][]-o 

Best,

Claude


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## bryla (Jan 12, 2011)

I agree with Jay - I think - to me everyone can learn everything. Talent is how FAST you learn it, and what gets you there is how HARD you work.


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## Elfen (Jan 12, 2011)

To me inspiration and perspiration are closely linked together. It's not just how long you are patient, focus etc... But more how much can you take before getting that moment of "here, I'm onto something that is closer to what I want to hear or is solid enough to lead me wherever it leads".

Sometime inspiration come first, sometime you have to dig it for a while.

As for the Atheist approach, I'm not sure what Atheistic has to do with what you're saying.

Bach believed in God and composed inspired by it, but I'm not sure he would say that all work he's done or any come directly from God. I'm pretty sure he would say that he was patient and focus and need personal discipline and hard work to do all he has done which can be at the same time inspired by God or the ideas of it.
Also you can be an Atheist and believe that sometimes you have limited control of the outcome of what you are doing and inspiration is as important as being focus and patient.

As for talents, I partly go for the "heh I play 3 notes and found music easy as for another one play the same 3 notes and found it hard to compose music". Also the ability to learn fast and/or be interested and deeply passionate by what you do. For me it's a mix of attitudes and aptitudes.


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## Henning (Jan 13, 2011)

My piano teacher once told me that there was no „talent“, there was only hard work. I believed him then, but I also saw that there were some of my fellow students that were able to achieve better results than me without working that hard. I think it is quite natural that some things come to some people easier than others. And I believe this is at least in part (aside from social influences) due to genetic dispositions. So you might term this “talent” or being “gifted” or whatever. There are known circumstances of the so called “wunderkind” like e.g. Mozart. While Beethoven was actually no child prodigy at all, but instead was beaten out of his bed to the piano by his ambitious father in the middle of the night because he wanted his son to become like Mozart. So this a quite extreme case to show that you can actually get as good as the so called “talented” people. But you might have to put more hard work and effort in it than them. 

And that’s after all the point in Alex’s article. We could discuss the topic “talent or no talent” to death but I think we all agree that if you want to get better at what you want to do you have to coax your little lazy bones into action  

By the way if anyone’s interested in anarchy and music there’s an interesting read:

http://www.amazon.de/Anarchy-Evolution-Science-Religion-Without/dp/0061828505/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294905656&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.de/Anarchy-Evolution- ... 656&amp;sr=8-1)

All the best,

Henning


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## Waywyn (Jan 13, 2011)

@Henning: Thanks for your input! Well said! 

@Elfen: Thanks also!
I may correct a few things you said:
I didn't say that the entire work of someone is coming from God. So the human is functioning like a channel or something. It is more that people claiming about themselves or others that their skills and abilities come from God. Something like, "God wanted me to become an awesome violin player", something like "It was his plan, that I am what I am today" ... but then either people saying this about themselves, completely forgot what they did, how much work they invested to become like this or others, saying this about someone else, since they are not able to understand were this skill is coming from, because it is so awesome.

For example, I recently met someone who really thinks that creating music and melodies is something which doesn't happen because of all your knowledge, but because someone is there providing you with ideas!

As a little comparison. It is like the Chilean miner thing. Everybody was praising the Lord, but wasn't it all really done by those scientists and engineers, planning the drill and manufacturing all that gear?
Please don't get me wrong. For everyone who wants to believe that some higher powers played a role, be my guest ... my point is, that often people refer to the higher power much faster, instead the reaching hands!


To maybe go a bit into the topic "atheist approach". It is not really about believing or not, about religion and all that. It is simply the fact that atheists don't blame anyone above if they fail or just in case ideas are not coming, someone is not "grateful". It is simply an approach of the attitude of an atheist.

Generally I like to combine or "mirror" aspects of the world or the universe in general to the creation of music. I recently wrote another article by using a quote of Sun Tzu for being successful in your job, which cause negative reaction quite a bit.

Sun Tzu was saying something like: Know your enemy, then you don't have to fear the battle.
Basically this means, know what you are doing, then it goes right. Not more not less.
However, peoples reaction were mixed, even like: How can you compare enemies to clients?! ...

Sure, I could have used another title, but then again. Wouldn't we have this interesting discussion? 


Again, thanks guys for all your input. Please keep em coming!


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## Elfen (Jan 13, 2011)

Waywyn @ Thu Jan 13 said:


> To maybe go a bit into the topic "atheist approach". It is not really about believing or not, about religion and all that. It is simply the fact that atheists don't blame anyone above if they fail or just in case ideas are not coming, someone is not "grateful". It is simply an approach of the attitude of an atheist.



I understand, the part that confused me was that I had never heard anyone blaming God or a deity for lack of ideas, which is news to me. That's why I wondered why you thought taking responsibility for it was an atheist trait.

Btw great articles. Really liked the microworkshop for Cubase as well, learned some neat tricks. Thanks! :mrgreen:


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## Waywyn (Jan 13, 2011)

Sorry Elfen, let me rephrase it and let me express more specific. I used the wrong words and f*cked it up a bit .. and the last days were a busy time 

I didn't want to say that someone is blaming God for their "incompetence" to write a tune (Well, maybe actually some do ).

I was trying toò #   ç:¶ #   ç:î #   çHm #   çHé #   ç•r #   ç•} #   ç–f #   ç–è #   ç®j #   ç¯‘ #   çÀ #   çÀí #   çÂ #   çÃh #   çÖ¬ #   ç×i #   çÞ# #   çÞc #   çýu #   çýË #   èE	 #   èE, #   è` #   è`_ #


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## robh (Jan 13, 2011)

Waywyn @ Thu Jan 13 said:


> I was trying to say that if people have a writers block or don't know what to do, in first instance try to beg, *pray, hope for an idea to come* rather than tying to reset their mind, by being aware that they have to solve this on their own.



For some, that is exactly how people reset their mind.

Rob


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## Waywyn (Jan 14, 2011)

robh @ Fri Jan 14 said:


> Waywyn @ Thu Jan 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I was trying to say that if people have a writers block or don't know what to do, in first instance try to beg, *pray, hope for an idea to come* rather than tying to reset their mind, by being aware that they have to solve this on their own.
> ...



Hey Rob, for sure ... and there is nothing wrong with it. Which would lead me to a question (which you of course don't have to answer - it is more "written thoughts")

If one prays to get rid of his/her writers block, would you say, it just helps because of the simple action (of thinking of something else, get positively distracted and be back on track and working. Let's say more like mediating)

... or would you say that there is some higher power or God who takes the writers block away? If yes, this again would lead me to the question why (and I just assume) believing people might be treated in a more or less not fair way. Meaning, others might get their writers block off within a few minutes while it takes e.g. weeks for others? I mean, at least we know that there are people or tutorial videos which say: Hey, if you got a block, speak this prayer and your block may be history and you are back with full creative powers (last one is ment to be a bit ironic )


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