# New Macbook Pro Retina disappointing for audio work



## spectrum (Jun 11, 2012)

http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/

Some cool additions and an attractive machine, but some really disappointing removals for us in the Pro Audio world: 

• No Digital Output 

• No Analog or Digital Input 

• No Optical drive 

• No Firewire 


True, everything can be done with external drives/adaptors/hubs, but a lot of the beauty of the portable, powerful digital audio laptop is kind of lost now.

(at least the original designs are still available and have been upgraded too, but I think the hand-writing is on the wall from apple: "Built-in Pro Audio Features no longer necessary")


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## midphase (Jun 11, 2012)

I'll give you the lack of FW. Everything else IMHO is not as big of a deal. I don't know any single person who does audio professionally who relies on the built-in Mac audio, and I honestly can't remember the last time I actually used my DVD drive on my laptop (thinking of taking it out and putting in a second SSD in there).


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## spectrum (Jun 11, 2012)

midphase @ Mon Jun 11 said:


> I'll give you the lack of FW. Everything else IMHO is not as big of a deal. I don't know any single person who does audio professionally who relies on the built-in Mac audio, and I honestly can't remember the last time I actually used my DVD drive on my laptop (thinking of taking it out and putting in a second SSD in there).


I think you misunderstand a bit.

They've removed all the built-in DIGITAL i/o for audio. Almost all Macs have come for years with dual analog/digital connectors. It's the digital part that's important for us.

We (and many other audio pros) use this i/o every day on dozens of different systems. The removal of it is a huge drag!

Basically when this is phased out, you can no longer use the MBPs without larger interfaces. We do a lot of remote work where we just need simple convertors for our work.....it's great! (or it was until they removed it :-( )


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## spectrum (Jun 11, 2012)

BTW...this part costs only pennies, so is lame to remove it. It's not like FW or Optical Drives, which are major cost factors.


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## midphase (Jun 11, 2012)

I get it...but an inexpensive and small audio interface like the Native Instruments KA6 will get you that functionality again and then some.


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## spectrum (Jun 11, 2012)

Also, the "usable life" of the MBP Retina will be much shorter, since you can't upgrade the built-in storage like you can with an SSD or HD-based laptop.

Flash memory is fine for iPads/iPhones/iPods/MB-Air, but there have been many times that upgrading the built-in HD on a laptop gave it another couple years of solid usability for me. 

Now we will be buying Macbook Pros much more often I'm afraid, since it's far less upgradable internally.


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## spectrum (Jun 11, 2012)

midphase @ Mon Jun 11 said:


> I get it...but an inexpensive and small audio interface like the Native Instruments KA6 will get you that functionality again and then some.


I know all about interfaces....I have probably a hundred of them around here. 

Interfaces are bulky, add expense and are way more of a hassle because of drivers and software incompatibilities.

The beauty of OSX Core Audio, is that ALL audio/music software just "works" with the built-in audio drivers. When the built-in OSX drivers are driving digital audio connections, everything just "works" too. Which is one of the things that's awesome about Macs for Audio compared to PCs....especially for live use.

So losing this built-in digital audio i/o connectivity is not a minor thing in the real world. Especially when you multiply it against lots of different systems.

All other audio interfaces have "issues" of one kind or another that have to be resolved before you can play live with your computer, record, edit, etc. It's just more hassle.

The MBP Retina is a downgrade on the audio side....no question about it.


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## jleckie (Jun 11, 2012)

Ive needed my retina scanned for quite some time now...

oh-wait...


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## midphase (Jun 11, 2012)

spectrum @ Mon Jun 11 said:


> I know all about interfaces....I have probably a hundred of them around here.



Sounds like it might be time for a Spectrasonics garage sale!


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Jun 11, 2012)

So now big deal with my MBP early 2011 Core i7 quad 2.3 8mb cache ? soon with 16 gb ram?
Im planning to buy sonex tbolt express card adapter with usb 3, really no big deal ins´t it?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 11, 2012)

Eric, the 15" model without the Retina display has digital I/O combined with the regular audio port:

"Audio line in (digital/analog)
Audio line out (digital/analog)"

I think you knew that, but I just wanted to make sure. To me the Retina display is solving a problem I never had with standard resolution displays.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 11, 2012)

What's intriguing is that it supports HDMI audio (with an adapter), and that could be multichannel.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 11, 2012)

Or not.


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Jun 11, 2012)

Christian F. Perucchi @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> So now big deal with my MBP early 2011 Core i7 quad 2.3 8mb cache ? soon with 16 gb ram?
> Im planning to buy sonex tbolt express card adapter with usb 3, really no big deal ins´t it?


 any signifacnt improvement on my mbp?


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## spectrum (Jun 11, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jun 11 said:


> Eric, the 15" model without the Retina display has digital I/O combined with the regular audio port:
> 
> "Audio line in (digital/analog)
> Audio line out (digital/analog)"
> ...


Yeah, I'm glad they kept and refreshed the existing models. This just seems like a really unnecessary thing to remove for the Retina and I think we are heading for a future without built-in Digital Audio i/o again on all Macs....which is why I'm making some noise. I think that's a real shame and mistake.



> To me the Retina display is solving a problem I never had with standard resolution displays.


Me too...we do tons of graphics work on the current displays and they look fantastic. Maybe seeing these in person will be a revelation, but I'd be surprised if it was.

I guess you might be able to use a really high screen res and still be able to see everything fairly well, but my eyes are going so bad I can't really work with stuff that small anyway so it's a bit of a moot point. 



Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jun 11 said:


> What's intriguing is that it supports HDMI audio (with an adapter), and that could be multichannel.


Yeah, I thought this was wonderful...but it's not a replacement for digital i/o, because I'm pretty sure that HDMI is audio outputs only.

Might be a good solution for the digital output issue...but you still need to carry around weird adaptors and junk...ugghh!


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## spectrum (Jun 11, 2012)

Christian F. Perucchi @ Mon Jun 11 said:


> Christian F. Perucchi @ Tue Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > So now big deal with my MBP early 2011 Core i7 quad 2.3 8mb cache ? soon with 16 gb ram?
> ...


Sure...the speed of the new ones is significantly faster at 2.7ghz....makes a big difference with Virtual Instruments.


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Jun 11, 2012)

Holy sh&&& well, at least, i can do my job with mine, for now!  thanks spectrum!


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## JT3_Jon (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm not so sure about this hi-res graphics. Wont this make displays take twice as much resources as before? So in theory a new computer today is actually slower then the last model? 

Also the removal of the digital I/O is a MAJOR BUMMER!! I just used mine the other day in conjunction with a 2-channel preamp with digital outputs and it worked GREAT! No drivers, no hassle, it just worked! If you only need 2 channels of i/o the digital jack was GREAT! Very sad to see it disappear. 

I almost wonder if I should buy last years model just to maintain this ability?


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## spectrum (Jun 12, 2012)

The regular (non-Retina) MBP models still have the Digital Audio i/o.

They have been refreshed today too.

It's only the Retina model that is the concern for dropping these built-in features....and the fact that they will likely keep these features removed unless we audio pro users speak up about it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 12, 2012)

spectrum @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> The regular (non-Retina) MBP models still have the Digital Audio i/o.
> 
> They have been refreshed today too.
> 
> It's only the Retina model that is the concern for dropping these built-in features....and the fact that they will likely keep these features removed unless we audio pro users speak up about it.



They will do it anyway, Eric. All the pro audio sales for a year equals a bad week for the iPhone. We are simply a low priority for Apple.


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## mark812 (Jun 12, 2012)

You can always buy a PC. 

For example, Dell has some great models, like this one - http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-l702x/pd?o ... =xps-l702x

i7-2670QM, RAM up to 16 GB, SSD, 17,3'', includes all outputs and it's, needless to say, cheaper than Mac.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 12, 2012)

Does your Dell run OS X?

Then I'm not interested. 

And I certainly don't want anything with 3D. Yuck!


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## mark812 (Jun 12, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> Does your Dell run OS X?
> 
> Then I'm not interested.
> 
> And I certainly don't want anything with 3D. Yuck!



Ironically, a lot of programs including Cubase, PLAY and many others run much more stable and efficient on Windows 7 than on OS X.


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## midphase (Jun 12, 2012)

Spec for spec that Dell isn't much cheaper than a Mac:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/FD318LL/A

I mean, if you add an SSD drive to the Mac and 16 gigs of RAM, you'll still come up within $100 of the DELL.


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## spectrum (Jun 12, 2012)

Looks like this could be an inexpensive solution at least for the digital output situation:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/produ ... largeimage

People have already requested to this company and others to make a Thunderbolt to TOSlink i/o cable...so maybe that will hopefully happen.


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## dcoscina (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm frustrated with Apple these days. I'm still on Snow Leopard because my hardware doesn't allow me to run Lion (Mac Pro 2.66ghz Quad and Macbook Core Duo 1.83ghz). I don't have cash to upgrade to a newer tower but might be able to trade in for a slightly less used laptop. Still, I feel like I'm being forced to buy their new stuff if I want to be able to run my software. I guess I'm not the only one on Snow Leopard still but I'm worried sample developers and engines like Kontakt or PLAY or whatever will cease to support SL in the near future....then I guess I will have to move to Windows 7 and PC since they are cheaper. Sigh.


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## caseyjames (Jun 12, 2012)

I'm planning on getting one of these soon.

Haven't burned a CD in years. Never used digital in or out. The analog in can be handy when out and about or collaborating in a pinch. Firewire is a very old tech that has been surpassed, I still have a firewire interface but the market will adapt and it will disappear.

I hate working on music on laptops due to the cramped screen real estate. I have 20/10 vision and text isn't something that is particularly critical in composing music. Reaper has arbitrary dpi control.

The advantages of the screen real estate trump all of those features combined many times over as far as I'm concerned.


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## spectrum (Jun 12, 2012)

Max resolution is only the same as the 17 inch MBP though....so it's not really a big improvement over that in terms of screen real estate.


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## midphase (Jun 12, 2012)

17-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit Hi-Res glossy widescreen display, 1920-by-1200 resolution

The new Retina Display MBP's is 2880-by-1800-pixel right? 

Am I missing something?


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## caseyjames (Jun 12, 2012)

Yeah, and with Reapers arbitrary DPI it can be rigged to treat the 2.8k as 100dpi

That more real estate than a 27" iMac or any other display that I know of, short of 4k projectors and such.


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## spectrum (Jun 12, 2012)

midphase @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> 17-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit Hi-Res glossy widescreen display, 1920-by-1200 resolution
> 
> The new Retina Display MBP's is 2880-by-1800-pixel right?
> 
> Am I missing something?


According to this article, Yes.

The article states that with the exception of some games, OSX limits the actual screen res used in maximum size by the Retina MBP to 1920 x 1200 resolution (same as default on 17in MBP) in scaled mode:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5998/macb ... y-analysis

Default (and best looking) res is still 1440 x 900.


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## caseyjames (Jun 12, 2012)

Thats for non retina enabled apps. Enabling retina functionality isn't a privilege for certain vendors, its part of the SDK for anyone to implement.

I have no doubt Cubase and the like will drag their asses in implementing it. Reaper, Studio One and other more nimble daws will have it much sooner.

Reaper is the only daw I know of that allows arbitrary DPI, so once it's enabled the full 2.88k will be usable.

I really hope this transition will be a catalyst that finally forces vendors to decouple the size of the interface from pixel size. Now that the pixel is no longer perceptible they should in no way be dependent on each other.


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 12, 2012)

For something named after a part of the eye, this certainly seems to lack vision on Apple's part.


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## JT (Jun 12, 2012)

I'll probably get one of these after the dust settles. I'm not overly concerned about what they've dropped. I remember a few years back when Steve Jobs dropped a 3.5 floppy drive from the Powerbook. I thought he was crazy, why would they do that?

Now it all makes sense.


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## chimuelo (Jun 12, 2012)

I think... www.monoprice.com ... is a great company. I bought a Ventilator ( Leslie sim) that used Reaktor for design then Scope SDK and a DSP chip for realtime work.
But they have the coolest ADAT converters( dirt cheap too), and lots of really niche products.
Below is a jpeg I made for guys wanting to use the Neo Ventilator in an AUX channel of a Scope mixer, and it works really well for the B3 emu., but suprisingly well for Vocals too, and since its in an AUX it can even give its excellent Doppler effect to all solo'd channels.
I actually have been using Motion-Sound products for years but this pedal is actually better, you just don;t get to feel the Doppler effect by standing next to it.

I think Apple needs to let Emagic guys come back to the PC. Let them please the gamers, it's a Consumer Electronics choice, and you can;t blame them. Just look at how guys whine here about a great plug in costing 149 USD......


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## synapse21 (Jun 12, 2012)

Slightly off-topic - I am so glad I built my i7 PC tower over the New Year's break with quality components. I contemplated waiting on the new Mac Pro tower back then and am now glad that I didn't.

If I were running Pro Tools at home, I would have still went for the Mac, but since I am using Nuendo, it's another story. I have zero problems with stability or performance with this setup, and aside form the occasional PLAY crash within VE Pro, it is an absolutely solid system for sound design and music composition.

I think the folks that use Macs nowadays might be rethinking their approach in the future for their main machine as PCs are easily eclipsing the Mac Pro 's capabilities.

- Rodney


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## spectrum (Jun 13, 2012)

_"the least repairable laptop we’ve taken apart"_

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/13/tea ... omponents/

Like I was saying, the Retina MBP you buy is pretty much it....don't plan on ever being able to upgrade anything in it.

A very expensive way to go unfortunately, because you'll not only need to buy the fastest machine possible initially, you'll also likely require a new machine much sooner than with a laptop that can have a new drive/memory added.


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## spectrum (Jun 14, 2012)

http://www.tuaw.com/2012/06/14/attention-world-the-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-does-have-o/ (http://www.tuaw.com/2012/06/14/attentio ... es-have-o/) 

Apparently Apple has been misleading us and the Retina does in fact have digital output! 

My contacts at Apple told me it did not. :shock: :o 8)


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## José Herring (Jun 14, 2012)

spectrum @ Wed Jun 13 said:


> _"the least repairable laptop we’ve taken apart"_
> 
> http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/13/tea ... omponents/
> 
> ...



True. But it also has the distinction of being the best built machine I've ever seen.


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## spectrum (Jun 14, 2012)

josejherring @ Thu Jun 14 said:


> True. But it also has the distinction of being the best built machine I've ever seen.


Nah....you're drinkin' the kool-aid. 

Many Apple products have a similarly excellent build quality (MB Air, etc)

The existing MBPs are excellent too.


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## José Herring (Jun 14, 2012)

Don't spoil the fun. I already got my $6,000 MacBook Pro Retina custom config in the shopping cart. Ok.....so maybe I have to talk to my wife before I hit the buy button.... Yeah, you're right, putting the Kool-aid down now.....


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## NYC Composer (Jun 14, 2012)

I was in the Apple Store on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan today-boy, are there ever a lot of people drinking the KoolAid! The place was wall to wall.

I know it's a tourist destination and most people aren't buyers, but they sure are bringing in foot traffic.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 14, 2012)

Last time I was in there the people *were* buyers!

That's why they have $100 billion in a drawer.


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## Nachivnik (Jun 15, 2012)

spectrum @ Wed Jun 13 said:


> _"the least repairable laptop we’ve taken apart"_
> 
> http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/13/tea ... omponents/
> 
> ...



I'm afraid that other manufacturers will draw all of the wrong lessons. They'll copy Apple by making upgrades impossible, taking away ports, and taking away options.


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## spectrum (Jun 15, 2012)

Nachivnik @ Fri Jun 15 said:


> I'm afraid that other manufacturers will draw all of the wrong lessons. They'll copy Apple by making upgrades impossible, taking away ports, and taking away options.


Yeah...I'm afraid of this too.

I haven't seen any reviews of the MBP Retina that point out these important points that are more in the "Cons" category for users.

I think we are now headed towards a very expensive change in the future of laptops.

These issues were raised with the MB Air, but all of that seems quiet now with the excitement over the Retina.


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## chimuelo (Jun 15, 2012)

What about an X79 Pro from ADK Pro and use that Hackintosh thingy...?
I wish I believed it worked, as I would have bought Logic long ago.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 15, 2012)

chimuelo @ Fri Jun 15 said:


> What about an X79 Pro from ADK Pro and use that Hackintosh thingy...?
> I wish I believed it worked, as I would have bought Logic long ago.



Why not buy a previous gen Macbook Pro laptop with a quad i7? The clock speeds are a little light, but it should be plenty fast enough to run Logic well.


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## spectrum (Jun 15, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jun 15 said:


> chimuelo @ Fri Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > What about an X79 Pro from ADK Pro and use that Hackintosh thingy...?
> ...


No need to go back a generation.

Get the brand-new quad i7 Macbook Pro (non-Retina) model! 

The speed and power is exactly the same as the Retina and the price is MUCH cheaper and it's much more upgradable, more digital i/o, FW, etc.


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## Nachivnik (Jun 16, 2012)

spectrum @ Fri Jun 15 said:


> I think we are now headed towards a very expensive change in the future of laptops.


 I think that the "Ultrabook(tm) Inspired by Intel" is evidence of this. It's the worst kind of me-too-ism and I don't know if it is going to pay off for them. Nobody else has Apple's ecosystem. Without it, why pay close to the same as a Mac? The most common answer has been "choice." Is that still true with an Ultrabook? I applaud Apple for their success. They now, effectively, set the tone for the entire industry. Everybody is chasing Apple. But I would like to see a manufacturer willing to recognize that there is another market out there. Sadly, Microsoft, with Windows 8 is chasing the Apple dream, too. Will musicians be hanging onto their copies of Windows 7 and Snow Leopard, saying, "You can take it from my cold, dead hands"? >8o :mrgreen:


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## gsilbers (Jun 16, 2012)

Nachivnik @ Fri Jun 15 said:


> spectrum @ Wed Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > _"the least repairable laptop we’ve taken apart"_
> ...



you can see it from that point. or you can see it from the point of view of the regular joe consumer; "that extra stuff i dont need"  

if you were selling apple laptops and everyone is buying laptops just to read/view movies via internet , use email and office word then why have so many peripherals and options. 

if you are apple and know about a niche group of professionals who need more power then you sell the desktop or imac. which supposedly will have another upgrade next year per tim cook.


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## Nachivnik (Jun 21, 2012)

gsilbers @ Sat Jun 16 said:


> you can see it from that point. or you can see it from the point of view of the regular joe consumer; "that extra stuff i dont need"
> 
> if you were selling apple laptops and everyone is buying laptops just to read/view movies via internet , use email and office word then why have so many peripherals and options.
> 
> if you are apple and know about a niche group of professionals who need more power then you sell the desktop or imac. which supposedly will have another upgrade next year per tim cook.



Which circles us right back around to the title of this thread. _-) :D


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## NYC Composer (Jun 22, 2012)

spectrum @ Sat Jun 16 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Jun 15 said:
> 
> 
> > chimuelo @ Fri Jun 15 said:
> ...



I'm behind the curve-didn't realize they had released a non-retina model  That sounds like the way to go for now.

Meanwhile, I have to say I'm thrilled that my early 2008 8 core Mac Pro is holding up quite well for the work I want to do.


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