# VSL - Synchron Piano (out now)



## Cartoon (Apr 20, 2018)

oooomg I am getting hyped!

Whats is your thought about this teaser?
Are you looking forward to it?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 20, 2018)

I don't like pianos.


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## heisenberg (Apr 20, 2018)

Very nice.


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## Gerbil (Apr 20, 2018)

Good dynamic range. Why's the demo in mono?


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## Eptesicus (Apr 20, 2018)

I will be honest, i feel pretty burnt by the Synchron strings release. A November release turned into a staggered release taking 5 months and the Synchron player still isn't out. I certainly won't ever be pre-ordering anything from them again, however good it sounds.

My trust in VSL has gone.


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## Tfis (Apr 20, 2018)

White keys will be released first?...


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## Eptesicus (Apr 20, 2018)

Tfis said:


> White keys will be released first?...



Probably. Or maybe an octave every month. Then, after you have pre-ordered and have the first octave, the price will drop as well.


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2018)

Tfis said:


> White keys will be released first?...


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## ludini (Apr 20, 2018)

Eptesicus said:


> I will be honest, i feel pretty burnt by the Synchron strings release. A November release turned into a staggered release taking 5 months and the Synchron player still isn't out. I certainly won't ever be pre-ordering anything from them again, however good it sounds.
> 
> My trust in VSL has gone.


I agree with you, they stated Synchron Strings would be out by the end of December when I bought them. But they never promised that the SynchronPlayer would be out by then as well, so that's fine with me. Software development times are hard to estimate. I wonder what they're working on all the time, though.
The piano looks very interesting. I already have Garritan CFX as well as Pianoteq, but the teaser sounds very nice.


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2018)

I would rather see VSL put more time and effort to release more Synchron Orchestral Libraries, (Sychron Strings 2, Synch. Chamber Strings, Synch. Solo Strings, Synchron Brass 1, Synch. Woodwinds 1, ..etc.etc. ...) instead of a Synchron Piano. They could always release a Piano once they have the main orchestral sections completed, plus... they don't even have the Synchron Player out yet. 

Oh.. and on top of all that, imho. the teaser did not excite me, visually or sonically, and is super short, and should I say .. boring.


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## Eptesicus (Apr 20, 2018)

ludini said:


> I agree with you, they stated Synchron Strings would be out by the end of December when I bought them. But they never promised that the SynchronPlayer would be out by then as well, so that's fine with me. Software development times are hard to estimate. I wonder what they're working on all the time, though.
> The piano looks very interesting. I already have Garritan CFX as well as Pianoteq, but the teaser sounds very nice.



The original date, when many pre-ordered was November. The thing that really annoyed me was the fact there was ZERO mention the parts would come out in a staggered release. If they were just honest and up front about it i would not have minded. Instead they took many peoples money and did a complete bait and switch. Then the whole voucher offer making it $100 cheaper before any of the sections were even released just added insult to injury.

Whilst I appreciate there are bumps in the road in software development, you don't take people's money promising a release month and then put it back 4 months (basses didnt come out till March).


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## Count_Fuzzball (Apr 20, 2018)

If it doesn't have 127 layers like the Vienna Imperial Grand, then I ain't buying it!  Gotta have alllll the dynamics


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## Markus Kohlprath (Apr 20, 2018)

Eptesicus said:


> Probably. Or maybe an octave every month. Then, after you have pre-ordered and have the first octave, the price will drop as well.


I mean the teaser says"Grand Things will happen...soon -very soon...Big Piano Chords"
So maybe two octaves at once. We should trust vsl a bit more.


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## Cartoon (Apr 20, 2018)

Eptesicus said:


> I will be honest, i feel pretty burnt by the Synchron strings release. A November release turned into a staggered release taking 5 months and the Synchron player still isn't out. I certainly won't ever be pre-ordering anything from them again, however good it sounds.
> 
> My trust in VSL has gone.


But I believe they also learned from their mistakes!


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## RiffWraith (Apr 20, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> Why's the demo in mono?



My first thought as well.


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## Casiquire (Apr 20, 2018)

Wait, the piano IS an orchestral instrument....

Anyway I'm excited to learn more, but VSL already has a couple pianos, it's a bit less exciting


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## jamwerks (Apr 20, 2018)

This must mean that the Synchron player is ready!


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## dhlkid (Apr 20, 2018)

i prefer Synchron Brass or Woodwinds


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## muziksculp (Apr 20, 2018)

Cartoon said:


> But I believe they also learned from their mistakes!



Maybe they did. But one thing is for sure, I learned from my mistake of trusting them with their release date. I will be more careful before buying any of their libraries in the future.


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## Phillip (Apr 20, 2018)

Yamaha logo. Is it going to be as good as Garritan CFX?


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## Count_Fuzzball (Apr 21, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Yamaha logo. Is it going to be as good as Garritan CFX?



I know Garritan gets alot of hate around these parts.. Is the CFX legitimately good?!


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## CGR (Apr 21, 2018)

Count_Fuzzball said:


> I know Garritan gets alot of hate around these parts.. Is the CFX legitimately good?!


Performed on a Yamaha AvantGrand with the Garritan Yamaha CFX:


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## antcarrier (Apr 21, 2018)

I think the reason for a piano library next is simple: it's easier to make percussion instruments sound good as a wet library. No legato problems or dynamic xfade glitches to worry about or try to somehow solve in post like we are hoping they will do for synchron strings with the new player (and I have my doubts that they will). Much easier to sample a piano successfully - no legato, no xfades, nice hall = nice tone.
I think it should put some faith back in the synchron line as they did with the percussion.
Personally I doubt I'll buy it though. I think I'll be sticking to 100% dry libraries in the future.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 21, 2018)

Tfis said:


> White keys will be released first?...



LOL #priviledge


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## Phillip (Apr 21, 2018)

Garritan with Avantgrand is super impressive (let's not forget the great performer). I'm sure CFX was closely studied by VSL team in preparation for this release.


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## keepitsimple (Apr 21, 2018)

The teaser sounds like a C7 to me not a CFX.


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## Cartoon (Apr 22, 2018)

I hope they release it this Friday!


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## newman (Apr 22, 2018)

Count_Fuzzball said:


> I know Garritan gets alot of hate around these parts.. Is the CFX legitimately good?!



Those Phillip Johnston recordings are good. One of his posts said he plays monitoring the built-in Yamaha Avantgrand sounds but afterwards applies the MIDI files to Garritan CFX (i.e. Garritan CFX is what you hear on the video).

Garritan CFX full is quite popular at the pianoworld, forums that cater principally classical pianists. I can't speak about Garritan CFX for production use but for classical practice, CFX out-of-the box (with some tweaks to pedalling) is nice. It is not perfect but in the top tier of VIs for a lot of classical piano players.

I don't particularly like any of the other Garritan CFX mics (or using just the single mic perspective from the Lite version), reverb, dials etc. The Abbey Hall reverb and noise floor are fine for piano practice but maybe producers want a dryer, quieter sound to edit. There are several pianoworld forums with opinions and graphs; some of the members are music industry pros and have made piano VIs.

One person's measurements and opinions:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...rritan-cfx-ivory-ii-steinway.html#Post2681330

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...pointed-in-garritan-cfx-lite.html#Post2695381

Pedal fix:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...o-improve-garritan-cfx-repedaling-timing.html

Maybe software is not perfect, such as memory leak (I addressed with some tweaking and RAM):

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2716043/stable-garritan-cfx.html


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## Lee Blaske (Apr 22, 2018)

Doesn't it sound like the unisons on that demo are somewhat out of tune (especially those Abs in an octave around :11)? Sounds pretty wobbly to my ears. Or is it just phase making it seem abnormally wide? I'm anxious to hear additional demos.

I have to say, I think I've reached a point where I'm going to be REALLY discerning about any future piano library purchases (VSL, or anyone else). I'm already sitting on a huge pile of them, and when I purchase new ones, it becomes clear pretty quickly whether I'll be using them or not. Barring some really new breakthrough technology, the sampled piano library market is now pretty mature. I also find that if I'm not in love with the basic sound of the instrument, having a zillion different mic positions doesn't really make that much difference to me.


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## keepitsimple (Apr 22, 2018)

newman said:


> Those Phillip Johnston recordings are good. One of his posts said he plays monitoring the built-in Yamaha Avantgrand sounds but afterwards applies the MIDI files to Garritan CFX (i.e. Garritan CFX is what you hear on the video).
> 
> Garritan CFX full is quite popular at the pianoworld, forums that cater principally classical pianists. I can't speak about Garritan CFX for production use but for classical practice, CFX out-of-the box (with some tweaks to pedalling) is nice. It is not perfect but in the top tier of VIs for a lot of classical piano players.
> 
> ...



The CFX is certainly a star at the pianoworld forums. As i mentioned in another thread, it's excellent for orchestral use and classical solo playing when you want a "not-in-your-face" sound that sounds natural, powerful and with some air.

Unfortunately, it's not the library *i would* personally choose to make a solo piano album because no matter what i did with the settings, i could not get rid of that room. Yes there's an option to turn down the rooms mics but doing so will result in a very thin sound in the mid registers (not to mention that the CFX is already thin in that area to begin with).

I like my piano to be intimate, to have body but in the same time clean and articulate. That's why the C7 is the most recorded piano in history and that's why i decided that no matter what i try, a well done C7 library will always be the one i will choose to record an album with. In my case i have found it and i am extremely satisfied with it. It's the Acousticsamples C7.

Sorry to derail this topic guys, was just some quick thoughts.


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## Phillip (Apr 23, 2018)

Mono compatibility is a common problem with piano libraries. I hope VSL C7 will deliver in that respect.


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## Vik (Apr 23, 2018)

It almost sounds as there's some kind of vibrato/tremolo on that piano (the kind of waves one hears when two notes are almost in tune, the kind of reference piano tuners use when they check if two notes of the same pitch are 100% in tune) in addition to the fact that a piano in mono never sounds really good. I fail to understand why someone would post a teaser like that. Vert surprising move from VSL.


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## ludini (Apr 23, 2018)

Vik said:


> It almost sounds as there's some kind of vibrato/tremolo on that piano (the kind of waves one hears when two notes are almost in tune, the kind of reference piano tuners use when they check if two notes of the same pitch are 100% in tune) in addition to the fact that a piano in mono never sounds really good. I fail to understand why someone would post a teaser like that. Vert surprising move from VSL.


Maybe the other microphone positions aren't ready yet.


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## midi-et-quart (Apr 23, 2018)

Guys... It's imho simply a no-go to post such a teaser in mono. I mean, back in 1998 that would have been acceptable, but not 20 years later, where dolby atmos and other audio standards try to improve our as well as the listener's experience.

I remember that the only walkthrough of 8dio's new epic toms ensemble is in mono too. Didn't buy it...


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## Cartoon (Apr 23, 2018)

Guys... Paul Kopf, from VSL wrote me!

"I have to apologize for the Mono version.
I know now that you ALWAYS have to double-check the settings of your video compressor 

Would you be so kind to correct the link in your post? I have deleted the mono version..."


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## germancomponist (Apr 23, 2018)

Cartoon said:


> Guys... Paul Kopf, from VSL wrote me!
> 
> "I have to apologize for the Mono version.
> I know now that you ALWAYS have to double-check the settings of your video compressor
> ...


It sounds kinda cold ...... I miss something "warmth in the sound.


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## Casiquire (Apr 23, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> It sounds kinda cold ...... I miss something "warmth in the sound.



My impression of the Synchron stage entirely is that it sounds a bit cold. That's part of why I like it sometimes, it has an intensity to it. But it's not for most of my uses, so I haven't bought into it yet.


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## Critz (Apr 23, 2018)

They had the chance to sample 3 different pianos. Listen to the video: the Steinway is the clear winner for most of the listeners (as usual), than there's the Bosendorfer with its particular sound. And there's the Yamaha, a much more "cold" piano that imho totally lacks the character of the others two pianos.
Guess what piano VSL choose?


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## Critz (Apr 23, 2018)

Even the real Yamaha sounds like a sampled piano..


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## Nicola74 (Apr 23, 2018)

I make concerts with Steinway and it is great, with Bosendorfer and it is great, with Yamaha and...it is great


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## Critz (Apr 23, 2018)

Nicola74 said:


> I make concerts with Steinway and it is great, with Bosendorfer and it is great, with Yamaha and...it is great


I'm not saying Yamahas are bad! But the one in the video comparison is not on par with the Steinway or the Bosendorfer.. 
The one sampled by Garritan sounds amazing.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 23, 2018)

I heard the Yamaha was a really great concert grand and then someone from VSL touched it and it turned into samples.

I once visited the VSL headquarters and I had my kid with me. By the time I left the building, it turned into an action figure. It went all emotionless, sterile and cold, and spoke to me in a synthy voice. :(


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## Critz (Apr 23, 2018)

BTW even if the preview is so short, I like what I heard. 
I don't agree with who says it sounds cold. I'm speaking about the video I linked with the real piano they sampled.


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## ludini (Apr 23, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I heard the Yamaha was a really great concert grand and then someone from VSL touched it and it turned into samples.
> 
> I once visited the VSL headquarters and I had my kid with me. By the time I left the building, it turned into an action figure. It went all emotionless, sterile and cold, and spoke to me in a synthy voice. :(


That's sad, man. Just the other day, I was firing up Dimension Strings and I swear to god: The temperature in the room immediately fell by a few degrees and frost tracery appeared on one of my windows. It's april after all, but still. Very creepy.


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## Nicola74 (Apr 23, 2018)

Critz said:


> I'm not saying Yamahas are bad! But the one in the video comparison is not on par with the Steinway or the Bosendorfer..
> The one sampled by Garritan sounds amazing.


For me every piano has got its own sound, not better or worse, just different. I have my preferencies too, but also the comparison in the video has no winner for me...
Just my two cents...


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## Critz (Apr 23, 2018)

Nicola74 said:


> For me every piano has got its own sound, not better or worse, just different. I have my preferencies too, but also the comparison in the video has no winner for me...
> Just my two cents...


I totally respect that.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Critz said:


> Even the real Yamaha sounds like a sampled piano..



Agreed I own one. Impossible to play Scriabin on it too.

Recently just finished learning etude 42 no 5


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## Critz (Apr 23, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Agreed I own one. Impossible to play Scriabin on it too.
> 
> Recently just finished learning etude 42 no 5


I was referring just the the disklavier in the video I linked! I didn't want to say that about every Yamahas


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## ctsai89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Critz said:


> I was referring just the the disklavier in the video I linked! I didn't want to say that about every Yamahas



They do make decent 8 inch speakers


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## ctsai89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Should sample bechstein pianos


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## ctsai89 (Apr 23, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I heard the Yamaha was a really great concert grand and then someone from VSL touched it and it turned into samples.
> 
> I once visited the VSL headquarters and I had my kid with me. By the time I left the building, it turned into an action figure. It went all emotionless, sterile and cold, and spoke to me in a synthy voice. :(



Lol!!! Nice


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## Critz (Apr 23, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Lol!!! Nice


Now he's finally sure the boy is his son


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## wcreed51 (Apr 23, 2018)

Glenn Gould choose a Yamaha after his beloved Steinway CD318 was damaged in shipment, and he didn't like anything Steinway had to offer. The second recording of the Goldberg variations done just before his death was done on the Yamaha.


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## Phillip (Apr 23, 2018)

Sviatoslav Richter was playing Yamaha in later years as well.


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## Vik (Apr 24, 2018)

wcreed51 said:


> Glenn Gould choose a Yamaha after his beloved Steinway CD318 was damaged in shipment, and he didn't like anything Steinway had to offer. The second recording of the Goldberg variations done just before his death was done on the Yamaha.


The best pianos I have tried have been Steinways, but I played on a Yamaha grand once, in Frankfurt, which sounded incredible. Someone explained that this was because even if Steinway had lots of patents, Yamaha were still copying what Steinway does.
But if I should choose between three different piano types, it would be between Hamburg Steinways, the best Yamahas and Fazioli, not Bechstein. That's a matter of taste, of course. Plus, even when comparing different Steinway pianos of the same type, they don't sound the same.

I guess there are more New York Steinways in US than Hamburg Steinways, but I'm not surprised if Gould chose a Yamaha over a New York Steinway based on the one Yamaha I have tried which sounded excellent (which hasn't been the case with New York Steinways).

Regarding the teaser above: it certainly sounds better in stereo (of course), but I'm surprised that there still is some kind of modulation in the last half of the teaser, especially around -0:10. It sounds like some strings are not in tune.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 24, 2018)

Horowitz > richter + Gould

Horowitz = Steinway

Steinway > Yamaha

Warning: it's my opinion


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## Phillip (Apr 24, 2018)

Zimmer > Mozart


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## Cartoon (Apr 24, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Zimmer > Mozart



Sarcastic?


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## Phillip (Apr 24, 2018)

Obviously


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## Critz (Apr 24, 2018)

You are talking about brands in general, that is quite pointless considering every piano is different.
This Disklavier they sampled sound in a certain way I don't like. The only pro is that its timbre could be the best option in orchestral context.


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## romantic (Apr 24, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I once visited the VSL headquarters and I had my kid with me. By the time I left the building, it turned into an action figure. It went all emotionless, sterile and cold, and spoke to me in a synthy voice. :(



Can you please add more information on the "synthy voice"? Was it Mono? Stereo? Auro3D?


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## ctsai89 (Apr 24, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Zimmer > Mozart



Zimmer definitely better than Mozart. All Mozart sounds the same and have become what people on the outside would stereotype as serious classical music but in fact it just sounds like a joke. Bach and Wagner is great. Mozart sucks (my opinion)


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## Cartoon (Apr 24, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Zimmer definitely better than Mozart. All Mozart sounds the same and have become what people on the outside would stereotype as serious classical music but in fact it just sounds like a joke. Bach and Wagner is great. Mozart sucks (my opinion)



Hans Zimmer also has his own style. So for me all Zimmers sounds the same too


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## romantic (Apr 24, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Mozart sucks (my opinion)


I agree ... except the Requiem


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 24, 2018)

romantic said:


> I agree ... except the Requiem



Ouch! Tough crowd!


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## Vik (Apr 24, 2018)

romantic said:


> I agree ... except the Requiem


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## ludini (Apr 24, 2018)

Vik said:


>



Lol, that was also my first reaction.


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 24, 2018)

As moving as Grimaud's version is, I have a weak spot for this one:


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## Casiquire (Apr 24, 2018)

I wasn't even going to mention my opinion on Mozart since I always feel like I'm in the minority, but...Yeah I'm totally with you @ctsai89


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## ctsai89 (Apr 24, 2018)

Mozart's requiem would be just as monotonous and joke sounding as his orher works without the lyrics.

Way too many stupid dominant 7th chords.

Really it doesn't sound sincere and there was no soul


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 24, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Mozart's requiem would be just as monotonous and joke sounding as his orher works without the lyrics.
> 
> Way too many stupid dominant 7th chords.
> 
> Really it doesn't sound sincere and there was no soul



Good thing taste is a personal thing.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Good thing taste is a personal thing.



I strongly doubt that different people have different taste in deciding which music has soul or not.

However they might have different taste in preferring music without soul over the ones that have more soul. And vise versa.

Some people just can't get in the mood for ecstatic/soulful music.

Could write a book about it and have asked and interviewed casually on many people but its what and how I observed and now perceive as the reality


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> I strongly doubt that different people have different taste in hearing which music has soul or not.
> 
> However they might have different taste in preferring music without soul over the ones that have more soul. And vise versa.
> 
> ...



With all due respect, I don't buy that argument.


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## ludini (Apr 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> I strongly doubt that different people have different taste in hearing which music has soul or not.
> 
> However they might have different taste in preferring music without soul over the ones that have more soul. And vise versa.
> 
> ...


So, that Horrowitz Clip which Guy Bacos posted doesn't have any soul to you? If so, I have to strongly disagree. Thus it can't be reality or a fact that Mozart has no soul, because I'm also part of reality and I see it differently. By the way, what exactly do you mean by soul?


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> With all due respect, I don't buy that argument.



I'm not selling


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

ludini said:


> So, that Horrowitz Clip which Guy Bacos posted doesn't have any soul to you? If so, I have to strongly disagree. Thus it can't be reality or a fact that Mozart has no soul, because I'm also part of reality and I see it differently. By the way, what exactly do you mean by soul?






and doesn't that steinway piano just sound beautiful?


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## Casiquire (Apr 25, 2018)

I agree, Mozart sounds very soulless, though I disagree that everyone has the same taste in what does or doesn't have soul. It might be obvious to me that Puccini and Rachmaninoff blow the wig right off Mozart's head, but some people really do disagree.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> I agree, Mozart sounds very soulless, though I disagree that everyone has the same taste in what does or doesn't have soul. It might be obvious to me that Puccini and Rachmaninoff blow the wig right off Mozart's head, but some people really do disagree.



I mean, if anyone were to say Rachmaninoff is soul less, right off the bat I'm thinking they're deaf.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

But could someone tell me I'm deaf when I say Mozart is soul less? I really must be deaf to think that way. Wait but Rach and Scriabin's music is full of soul and ecstasy. 

I'm still deaf. lol because I find Mozart's music soul less


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## romantic (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Ouch! Tough crowd!


Just personal taste 
But for me also Romantic > Baroque > Classic


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

romantic said:


> Just personal taste
> But for me also Romantic > Baroque > Classic



That's not personal. That's an objective taste. My opinion though.


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## Vik (Apr 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> I strongly doubt that different people have different taste in deciding which music has soul or not.


What touches each of us, musically, depends on a lot of things. And if we should discuss the statement above, we would first have to define what soul is. But here's something I've see many times, across all genres: some people more or less fall in love with certain compositions, while others find the same compositions dead boring.

Do we need to analyse why? I don't think so - for the same reason that we don't need a scientific analysis of why people fall in love with different persons.

For me it's enough to know that we simple aren't equal. And regarding Mozart, Brahms, Mahler, Elgar, Chopin - or pretty much any other composer: I'm deeply touched by some of their compositions, but not by most of their compositions. So for me, no composer is soulless, but I often don't get why many of them wrote all the pieces they wrote - and know that that's a highly personal statement.

Some may state that most of the compositions by any of their fav. composers out there have 'soul' - and even if that objectively would be true, that doesn't mean that all of their listeners will _feel_ the soul in each of these compositions.


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## Phillip (Apr 25, 2018)

"Way too many stupid dominant 7th chords." You should start seriously studying harmony asap. That could really help you with your goals. Good luck.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Phillip said:


> "Way too many stupid dominant 7th chords." You should start seriously studying harmony asap. That could really help you with your goals. Good luck.



Guaranteed my analytical skills when it comes to haromonies is better than most of yours in this thread maybe except for @Guy Bacos 's


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## Critz (Apr 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Guaranteed my analytical skills when it comes to haromonies is better than most of yours in this thread maybe except for @Guy Bacos 's



Booooooooooommm!!!


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Critz said:


> Booooooooooommm!!!



Hahahaha just kind of being sarcastic in a way but I'm serious about guy bacos he's able to imitate ravel's musical style in his compositions. Big respect for that


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## Phillip (Apr 25, 2018)

If you really knew harmony you would not be attacking Mozart. You would be in awe of his art...


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Phillip said:


> If you really knew harmony you would not be attacking Mozart. You would be in awe of his art...



How do you prove that knowing or not knowing harmony could prevent that?

Like vik said it's not rocket science 

But harmony is a good tool for me to describe other artists' works 

When I mentioned dominant 7th is because it is a way to describe his music patterns and tendencies, not to judge him by using theory. Other wise I would be saying "I don't like what happens at 0:45, 1:30, and etc"


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## morphling (Apr 25, 2018)

I don't think anyone really cares if you can appreciate Mozart or not.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

morphling said:


> I don't think anyone really cares if you can appreciate Mozart or not.


Haha true but they did reply

And I was seeing if anyone feels the way I do I'm glad I'm not the only one


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 25, 2018)

Let's just agree, music is a very personal thing in whatever ways you wish to describe it, taste, soul, personality, depth etc


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Let's just agree, music is a very personal thing in whatever ways you wish to describe it, taste, soul, personality, depth etc



I agree. But more often than not it's others accusing me of not feeling the same way they feel to Mozart. So I tend to do the same back. Dont mind me triggering people out of it though. I'll try to do that less. I do appreciate your comments


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## ludini (Apr 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> and doesn't that steinway piano just sound beautiful?



That's a nice piece of music! I hadn't heard it before (or maybe once). Definitely a nice recording.
What you _seem_ to describe as soul, I would rather describe as emotion though.
I'd agree with you that this piece is more emotional than most of Mozart's works. But Mozart's music has other qualities that are not easily found elsewhere. In the end, tastes are just different and we probably won't benefit too much from putting art into a hierarchy. At least that's what I think.


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 25, 2018)

I wished that on my best day I could write a piece half as good as Mozart's worst piece.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> I wished that on my best day I could write a piece half as good as Mozart's worst piece.



Did you say that just to fish compliments?

Your pieces are all better than Mozart's I'm not kidding


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 25, 2018)

Well I do appreciate the compliment, thanks! But no, I'm absolutely serious. I'm pretty good in imitating styles of classical composers, but it's when you do it, you realize how genius these composers, like Mozart or others are, the beauty is not the same, and in my mind beauty is a big part of genius. The same goes for Ravel and all the great ones.

But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and we're back to square one.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Well I do appreciate the compliment, thanks! But no, I'm absolutely serious. I'm pretty good in imitating styles of classical composers, but it's when you do it, you realize how genius these composers, like Mozart or others are, the beauty is not the same, and in my mind beauty is a big part of genius. The same goes for Ravel and all the great ones.
> 
> But then, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and we're back to square one.



Mozart is good at what he does so obviously anyone could find it difficult to be like him


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

But to try to be like mozart... complete waste of time for you in my opinion


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

I've learned to play probably 30~40 something pieces by mozart on the piano, never really could credit it for having bettered me as a musician

When I played Scriabin and rachmaninoff, even the short and easy pieces made me realize how much time I had wasted spending on mozart


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> But to try to be like mozart... complete waste of time for you in my opinion



Well, that wasn't exactly my point.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Well, that wasn't exactly my point.



To try to compose like him for a piece? Still a waste of time haha.


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## Johnny42 (Apr 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Horowitz > richter + Gould
> 
> Horowitz = Steinway
> 
> ...


You blasphemously disregarded Gilels.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Apr 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> To try to compose like him for a piece? Still a waste of time haha.



Not as a composition representing me. I don't know about you, but I've been involved in tons of projects, some educational and involved imitating styles of great composers within a same melody in some fun project. I could tell you that the kids listening and discovering certainly didn't find it a waste of time.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Not as a composition representing me. I don't know about you, but I've been involved in tons of projects, some educational and involved imitating styles of great composers within a same melody in some fun project. I could tell you that the kids listening and discovering certainly didn't find it a waste of time.



I see I guess if you guys like mozart then it's worth awhile.


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## Guy Bacos (Apr 25, 2018)

But if you don't dig Mozart, you're still my friend.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> But if you don't dig Mozart, you're still my friend.



I dig your compositions


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## Vik (Apr 25, 2018)

The German bass player Eberhard Weber once said that he'd rather be a bad original than a good copy. That's my stance on copying Mozart or anyone else.
Having said that, humans are known for using imitating as a means to learning something new, and do that from they are a few weeks old. Too bad some/all of us may have been wasting time on trying to imitate someone we don't really want to learn from - but so be it. And who knows, ctsai - if you hadn't spent time on learning Mozart pieces, maybe you wouldn't have discovered later (by playing Scriabin and Rachmaninoff) that you were into something else than Mozart?


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## Casiquire (Apr 25, 2018)

I was never in awe studying Mozart's harmonies. Bach was more intellectually stimulating to me.


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## Phillip (Apr 25, 2018)

Try symphony no. 40. Much to be learned and inspired by. Yes, Bach harmonies are awesome.


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## ctsai89 (Apr 25, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Try symphony no. 40. Much to be learned and inspired by. Yes, Bach harmonies are awesome.



Bach yes mozart no. I play cello and I don't want to play that symphony ever again. Overplayed


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## Cartoon (Apr 25, 2018)

Would be nice if we could go back to the topic 
My guess is they will release it on Wednesday next week with the Synchron player


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## Casiquire (Apr 25, 2018)

Cartoon said:


> Would be nice if we could go back to the topic
> My guess is they will release it on Wednesday next week with the Synchron player



What is "topic"?

In that regard I think it will have the requisite VSL perfect clinical sound, impeccably programmed, consistent, flexible. It will fill a specific style and although I agree the sound of their chosen piano really is a bit, dare I say, soulless, it will cut through the rest of the orchestra very well. 

And I'm incredibly unlikely to buy it.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Apr 26, 2018)

The whole discussion about "soul" is ridiculous. You're talking about a diffuse, abstract, undefined and mythological category. The whole idea of "soul" can only be deduced from a personal experience of yourself, your own being and your perception of this. And this is already something that the conscious mind in reality can't grasp anyway. Whether you perceive something to have "soul" or not depends on your entirely individual expectations and experiences.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 26, 2018)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The whole discussion about "soul" is ridiculous. You're talking about a diffuse, abstract, undefined and mythological category. The whole idea of "soul" can only be deduced from a personal experience of yourself, your own being and your perception of this. And this is already something that the conscious mind in reality can't grasp anyway. Whether you perceive something to have "soul" or not depends on your entirely individual expectations and experiences.


Marvin Gaye, Al Green, Otis Redding...... indisputable soul, and if you don’t know you gotta ax somebody.


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## Phillip (Apr 26, 2018)

Just finished a production session with a very experienced producer / mixing engineer (Grammy award winner). After hearing my demo with Galaxy Steinway and then same thing replaced with Kawai Grand recorded in my living room , his comment was - "Please stay away from sampling libraries as much as you can - you actually have a nice touch on a real piano, sampling libraries don't show that at all." I know not everybody has a grand piano or even upright in their living room, but I'm done with buying piano libraries. The amount of money I spent on those libraries over last 15 years is equal to a nice second hand Yamaha baby grand. Never again.


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## CGR (Apr 26, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Just finished a production session with a very experienced producer / mixing engineer (Grammy award winner). After hearing my demo with Galaxy Steinway and then same thing replaced with Kawai Grand recorded in my living room , his comment was - "Please stay away from sampling libraries as much as you can - you actually have a nice touch on a real piano, sampling libraries don't show that at all." I know not everybody has a grand piano or even upright in their living room, but I'm done with buying piano libraries. The amount of money I spent on those libraries over last 15 years is equal to a nice second hand Yamaha baby grand. Never again.


Yeah - just when I think a sampled piano is sounding pretty good, I put it up against even a decent mid-range acoustic and it's a whole other sonic experience. Then again, micing and recording an acoustic piano well is an art in itself, and the editing & flexibility of Midi & sampled pianos is a pretty compelling option.


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## Phillip (Apr 26, 2018)

That's right, editing and flexibility, those are forte's of sampling libraries, not the sound.


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## newman (Apr 26, 2018)

Phillip said:


> That's right, editing and flexibility, those are forte's of sampling libraries, not the sound.



VIs are also useful for practicing in small spaces and not bothering the neighbours!


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## romantic (Apr 26, 2018)

Cartoon said:


> Would be nice if we could go back to the topic
> My guess is they will release it on Wednesday next week with the Synchron player


I don't care that much about the Piano, but Wednesday for the Synchron player would be nice!


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## creativeforge (Apr 26, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> and doesn't that steinway piano just sound beautiful?




I prefer the cello, personally... nice piano, though... The piano sounds like piano, the cello sounds like music...


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## ctsai89 (Apr 27, 2018)

creativeforge said:


> I prefer the cello, personally... nice piano, though... The piano sounds like piano, the cello sounds like music...



Haha that cello prob millions. Piano prob 200k


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## suchtreble (Apr 28, 2018)

I wonder if it'll be any better than the strings "fiasco"


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## amadeus1 (Apr 28, 2018)

*Bravo!*


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## Cartoon (Apr 28, 2018)

amadeus1 said:


> *Bravo!*



What do you mean?


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## amadeus1 (Apr 28, 2018)

Cartoon said:


> What do you mean?


The piano performance of Rachmaninoffs Prelude in G minor that someone posted.


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## Cartoon (Apr 30, 2018)

I really want to know what soon. very soon means haha

This week? Next week?


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## good (Apr 30, 2018)

Cartoon said:


> I really want to know what soon. very soon means haha
> 
> This week? Next week?



Vienna Download Manager & Vienna Ensemble was updated. I think the release is very very soon.
The following is an update description of Vienna Ensemble.

"
Vienna Instruments/Vienna Ensemble 6.0.16999

• Added: Support for Synchron Pianos
"

I hope their CFX is released today or tomorrow.


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## Nicola74 (May 1, 2018)

The piano is out


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## Mihkel Zilmer (May 1, 2018)

> Up to *4,200 samples per key* for maximal authenticity and liveliness


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## good (May 1, 2018)

Nicola74 said:


> The piano is out



oh, thank you! I waited for a long time.
They hold an Introductory Offer through May 31, 2018.

Let me see the pr...€ 350? Original price of Full Library is € 490.
Price of Standard Library that have fewer microphone positions is € 255, and introductory price is € 185.
For reference, Vienna Imperial's original price is € 495. 

I didn't expect this price because it has less velocity than Vienna Imperial, but VSL CFX seems have more samples per key.
They said their Yamaha CFX boasts breathtaking authenticity with up to *4,200 samples per key*.
Also, the number of microphone positions are 10.

I'll be watching the situation a little more as there is a considerable time before the event expiration date. It's quite expensive for me.
I may buy Standard Library first and then consider Full Library if necessary.


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## Tfis (May 1, 2018)

How are the legati? ....


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## Mihkel Zilmer (May 1, 2018)

Tfis said:


> How are the legati? ....



Left hand or right hand?


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## Tfis (May 1, 2018)

Mihkel Zilmer said:


> Left hand or right hand?


Both hands had been sampled? Great!


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## Vadium (May 1, 2018)

if you already have other synchron libraries, you can safe 28 euro in case you will buy this piano on the Synchron package page:


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## Gerbil (May 1, 2018)

Are those demos just ripped from midi files because they're not very good, particularly the etudes? The bass overwhelms the treble in many of the demos (eg No.1). No.4 - weird cut-off behaviour all over the place and the treble is barely audible compared to the broken chords. No.5 - very uneven velocities; notes appearing louder than others of normally very similar velocity. If they're actual performances then that suggests that this is not an easy piano to play.


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## slobajudge (May 1, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> Are those demos just ripped from midi files because they're not very good, particularly the etudes? The bass overwhelms the treble in many of the demos (eg No.1). No.4 - weird cut-off behaviour all over the place and the treble is barely audible compared to the broken chords. No.5 - very uneven velocities; notes appearing louder than others of normally very similar velocity. If they're actual performances then that suggests that this is not an easy piano to play.


Relax, don`t shoot at piano, it`s early yet to be so negative


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## Nicola74 (May 1, 2018)

Vadium said:


> if you already have other synchron libraries, you can safe 28 euro in case you will buy this piano on the Synchron package page:


If you bought it already, I really would like to have a feedback from you


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## Gerbil (May 1, 2018)

slobajudge said:


> Relax, don`t shoot at piano, it`s early yet to be so negative



It's difficult not to be with demos like that. They really are pretty terrible. Surely a demo is first and foremost supposed to show the instrument off.

I think a video of someone actually playing it and demonstrating it using a variety of techniques would be far more beneficial.


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## good (May 1, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> It's difficult not to be with demos like that. They really are pretty terrible. Surely a demo is first and foremost supposed to show the instrument off.
> 
> I think a video of someone actually playing it and demonstrating it using a variety of techniques would be far more beneficial.



I think so, too. The sound of demos are bad to me.
I opened my wallet, and closed after listening to them.

I'm waiting for their actual playing by a pianist, or walkthrough video.


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## Vadium (May 1, 2018)

Nicola74 said:


> If you bought it already


not yet..


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## SGordB (May 1, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> But could someone tell me I'm deaf when I say Mozart is soul less? I really must be deaf to think that way. Wait but Rach and Scriabin's music is full of soul and ecstasy.
> 
> I'm still deaf. lol because I find Mozart's music soul less



Sounds like you're just tone-deaf to the soul of classical (era) music. A lot of Mozart's oeuvre sounds like facile potboiler muzak to me (I'm no musicologist, but I know what I like), but then there are those works where soul and spirit are ineffably evident. Case in point: that piano concerto adagio.


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## good (May 1, 2018)

SGordB said:


> Sounds like you're just tone-deaf to the soul of classical (era) music. A lot of Mozart's oeuvre sounds like facile potboiler muzak to me (I'm no musicologist, but I know what I like), but then there are those works where soul and spirit are ineffably evident. Case in point: that piano concerto adagio.



Let's just ignore a person who isn't likely to be able to talk.
He may not be deaf to Rach and Scriabin, but deaf to Mozart 
I wonder if he has ever listened to all Mozart's music other than one he felt to have no soul.

Yes, Mozart is not necessarily supposed to sound good to anyone.
But I think it is wrong to denigrate someone else's view that Mozart is very soulful, and to keep pouncing on other's words.
He doesn't know what 'personal taste' means, and doesn't acknowledge it
and also just hides behind the frame of 'just my opinion'.

To say one more thing, without Mozart's musical achievement, there wouldn't be Rach or Scriabin.


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## SGordB (May 1, 2018)

good said:


> Let's just ignore a person who isn't likely to be able to talk.
> He may not be deaf to Rach and Scriabin, but deaf to Mozart
> I wonder if he has ever listened to all Mozart's music other than one he felt to have no soul.
> 
> ...



Just to riff a little more on the subject, anytime an artist who has been recognized as great for generations fails to capture one's fancy, it's as good as axiomatic that the fault lies in one's ability to appreciate/resonate with the artist's work rather than it being a case of the emperor has no clothes. With Mozart, does he have Otis Redding or Aretha Franklin soul? Probably, at best, not really. But soul should be much more broadly defined as any communicable evidence that the musician has one - and you can feel it unless your own soul is on a very different wavelength.


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## richard kurek (May 1, 2018)

good said:


> I think so, too. The sound of demos are bad to me.
> I opened my wallet, and closed after listening to them.
> 
> I'm waiting for their actual playing by a pianist, or walkthrough video.


i agree lately the new piano libraries have terrible demos , i did purchase the VSL CFX downloading at this point


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## Lee Blaske (May 1, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> Are those demos just ripped from midi files because they're not very good, particularly the etudes? The bass overwhelms the treble in many of the demos (eg No.1). No.4 - weird cut-off behaviour all over the place and the treble is barely audible compared to the broken chords. No.5 - very uneven velocities; notes appearing louder than others of normally very similar velocity. If they're actual performances then that suggests that this is not an easy piano to play.



Well, in the Chopin Etude #1, the bass is the melody, so it should sing out over the treble.


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## Lee Blaske (May 1, 2018)

Listening to all the demos, I was thinking it was a nice powerful sounding piano. But do I need any more powerful, steely-sounding grand pianos? 

But then, my ears really perked up listening to Chopin Etude Op 10 No 5 - Player Position. So, apparently it can do a nice, more-rounded sound, too. I'm going to sit back to hear first impression comments from others, but I'm leaning toward picking this up (even though I have a real Yamaha CFIII).

Considering the Synchron Stage environment, the quality and tweaked-outedness of that particular piano, and VSL's depth of experience at sampling and writing software, if they can't knock it out of the park at this point, they might as well pack things up and go home.  

I'm hoping they knocked it out of the park. There has to be far less serendipity involved in sampling a fine piano than there is in sampling a room filled with living string players.


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## RRC123 (May 1, 2018)

Can anyone hear the 'gated' type affect on the ambience in this demo; it's as if the room mic of the notes are being cut short:
Etude op10 No 4 - excerpt


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## Lee Blaske (May 1, 2018)

RRC123 said:


> Can anyone hear the 'gated' type affect on the ambience in this demo; it's as if the room mic of the notes are being cut short:
> Etude op10 No 4 - excerpt



Yes, I did notice that some notes ended up being unnaturally short. But, it makes me wonder if they actually had someone play this new library, or if they just ran some pre-existing MIDI files on it. One would think this could be massaged.


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## RRC123 (May 1, 2018)

Lots to like sonically about the instrument. But, my guess is that the gated thing is the result of some issues with the programming of the instrument and likely something that could be sorted with an update. Midi file or not, i can't imagine how/why you'd get that kind of result through the instrument.

For me, the tell-tale sign of a good/bad piano library is in dry repeated staccato notes/chords ...does the instrument handle the natural variations and convince me it's a natural living/breathing thing, or am I zapped out of the illusion and reminded of the samples that are being triggered?
Look forward to hearing a demo that exposes this...particularly with the dry close mics.


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## Lee Blaske (May 1, 2018)

RRC123 said:


> Lots to like sonically about the instrument. But, my guess is that the gated thing is the result of some issues with the programming of the instrument and likely something that could be sorted with an update. Midi file or not, i can't imagine how/why you'd get that kind of result through the instrument.



Well, the difference would be if the note that got clipped happened before the next sustain pedal depression. 

I actually find it easier to spot a sampled piano in more spacious playing, where you can hear (or not hear) interaction between notes. Virtuosic pieces with a flurry of notes can sound impressive, but they can really mask that sampled piano problem.


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## RRC123 (May 1, 2018)

I guess my point is, regardless of the sustain, the note (and any ambient mic sample associated with it) should still decay naturally.


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## Gerbil (May 1, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Well, in the Chopin Etude #1, the bass is the melody, so it should sing out over the treble.



Not to that extent.


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## Tanuj Tiku (May 2, 2018)

It sounds quite good to me. First, respect to @Guy Bacos because he has performed/programmed all of the demos and it is a tall order!

Those releases - well, it is easy to get around them even if they cannot be fixed (I heard may be one or two that felt slightly unnatural) . The fact that the piano survived these complex pieces of music is a very good outcome. For most of us, we are never really going to push it to this level.

I like the player and ambient perspectives. Very nice.


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## Ben (May 2, 2018)

There is a known bug in the current version that will be fixed soon -> https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t48680-Yamaha-CFX----sustain-pedal-chopping-samples#post271488


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## Lee Blaske (May 2, 2018)

omiroad said:


> You even have to _massage_ piano libraries?



Sure. Why wouldn't you? There's a lot of nuance that can come into play, especially with a library like this that has half-pedaling and re-pedaling capabilities.


----------



## suchtreble (May 2, 2018)

not sure about the demos, maybe someone could do a playthrough???


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## Lee Blaske (May 2, 2018)

BTW, considering the history of sampled piano development (remember when we were all excited about GigaPiano because it was a whole Gb of samples?), this library is coming in at a pretty ridiculously low price-point for what it is. $222 for the standard library?? That's extremely cheap for such a highly engineered and versatile product with its own custom playback engine and 115 Gb of sample data (240 for the full version). Half-pedaling, re-pedaling, una corda and other unique techniques are included.

This is a lot cheaper than VSL's previous high-end piano, but you're getting way, way, more instrument this time.

At that price point, VSL must be planning on selling a lot of copies. This is really quite a competitive move as far as the marketplace is concerned, and may well shake things up. It's not just another piano library. Might end up being the new standard. There aren't many competitors in a position to even consider making a product like this.


----------



## Gerbil (May 2, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> BTW, considering the history of sampled piano development (remember when we were all excited about GigaPiano because it was a whole Gb of samples?), this library is coming in at a pretty ridiculously low price-point for what it is. $222 for the standard library?? That's extremely cheap for such a highly engineered and versatile product with its own custom playback engine and 115 Gb of sample data (240 for the full version). Half-pedaling, re-pedaling, una corda and other unique techniques are included.
> 
> This is a lot cheaper than VSL's previous high-end piano, but you're getting way, way, more instrument this time.
> 
> At that price point, VSL must be planning on selling a lot of copies. This is really quite a competitive move as far as the marketplace is concerned, and may well shake things up. It's not just another piano library. Might end up being the new standard. There aren't many competitors in a position to even consider making a product like this.



That's cool. I've been after a fully sampled piano with all the trimmings for ever. But there needs to be proof that it's a playable instrument otherwise it isn't worth the cash. 

The standard price seems fair but it's still money and there is nothing more disappointing than downloading a piano library - one of THE instruments that should work well with a keyboard - only to find certain notes don't respond as you'd expect or there are glitches and quirks here there and everywhere. So far I'm not hearing the evidence and I do think a video demonstration would really help. Nothing super fancy; just clear and concise, like the sort that Mike from Cinesamples always puts up.


----------



## chapbot (May 2, 2018)

Is it just me or does VSL specialize in creating the most UNhelpful demos for their products? 10 classical, ambient demos. For a pop demo (which you have to dig around for) they have Gershwin. This reminds me of my snooty university piano teacher - her idea of "pop music" was Gershwin lol. And of course, their weird, "playable" (huge latency) demo app (which I paid for) does not have any mention of the Synchron piano.


----------



## ctsai89 (May 2, 2018)

chapbot said:


> Is it just me or does VSL specialize in creating the most UNhelpful demos for their products? 10 classical, ambient demos. For a pop demo (which you have to dig around for) they have Gershwin. This reminds me of my snooty university piano teacher - her idea of "pop music" was Gershwin lol. And of course, their weird, "playable" (huge latency) demo app (which I paid for) does not have any mention of the Synchron piano.



At least the demoes most of the times are pretty accurate in presenting how Vsl really sounds


----------



## good (May 2, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> So far I'm not hearing the evidence and I do think a video demonstration would really help. Nothing super fancy; just clear and concise, like the sort that Mike from Cinesamples always puts up.



I agree.. I need a little more videos. (walkthrough, actual play, etc)
They will upload those as soon as possible I guess. I'm waiting.


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## jamwerks (May 2, 2018)

Sounds great! And very competitive price!!


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## good (May 2, 2018)

Product manager Paul said,
"All demos were played by Guy Bacos - as those last-minute changes provided quite some improvements (especially in release sample and pedal handling), new versions of these demos will be available soon. "

They already fixed a few bugs of the instrument, so the demos will be improved soon.


----------



## chapbot (May 2, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> At least the demoes most of the times are pretty accurate in presenting how Vsl really sounds


Somehow I think your answer has a double meaning


----------



## Casiquire (May 2, 2018)

I'd like to go on the record here and say that I completely reject the idea that anything has to be good to have popularity, even long lasting, even over centuries. It doesn't have to be good, just have mass appeal. That's it, that's the secret. That's not me saying Mozart wasn't "good", he was great and incredible. But that does mean that the idea that his music must be soulful because it's endured is absolutely absent of any truth.


----------



## Lee Blaske (May 2, 2018)

Just trying to get the library installed here. Posted a question on the VSL forum, but I'm sure they're all still asleep over there...

I installed the Synchron Pianos software, and the library (using the Vienna Download Manager). But, Synchron Pianos is not showing up in my instrument plug-in list in Logic.
I also just noticed that the Synchron Pianos folder has its own installer app. Does that need to be used instead of Vienna Download Manager? I've already thrown my downloaded library files away after installing the library. Guess I need to try to download it again.

The installer version I used was 1.0.464 (which evidently is already an update to fix the note cutting off bug). Is it possible they forgot to put the plug-in in this new installer?

Anyone else having problems?


----------



## azeteg (May 2, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I installed the Synchron Pianos software, and the library (using the Vienna Download Manager). But, Synchron Pianos is not showing up in my instrument plug-in list in Logic.



As long as the Synchron Pianos software is installed, the plugin should show up in Logic. Perhaps try installing it again, then restarting your system. If this doesn't help, please contact our support - and I'll investigate this immediately.



Lee Blaske said:


> I also just noticed that the Synchron Pianos folder has its own installer app. Does that need to be used instead of Vienna Download Manager? I've already thrown my downloaded library files away after installing the library. Guess I need to try to download it again.


The (new) Download Manager is capable of properly installing content for the Synchron series of instruments. The Synchron Library Installer provided with the software package is there for installing downloaded files at a later time.


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## ctsai89 (May 2, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> I'd like to go on the record here and say that I completely reject the idea that anything has to be good to have popularity, even long lasting, even over centuries. It doesn't have to be good, just have mass appeal. That's it, that's the secret. That's not me saying Mozart wasn't "good", he was great and incredible. But that does mean that the idea that his music must be soulful because it's endured is absolutely absent of any truth.



I pretty much would say the same. 

Here are other things to consider: 

85% of the world's population fall in the IQ range of 80~110. Or something like that. Google it if you would like.

Because someone's music lasted for centuries and appealed for the mass, it merely means that it was good at pleasing people within the IQ range that most people fall in.


----------



## CGR (May 2, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Here are other things to consider:
> 
> 85% of the world's population fall in the IQ range of 80~110. Or something like that. Google it if you would like.
> 
> Because someone's music lasted for centuries and appealed for the mass, it merely means that it was good at pleasing people within the IQ range that most people fall in.


Wow. Surely good music is irrelevant to the IQ of the audience. Music appreciation is multi-faceted and more than an intellectual exercise.


----------



## romantic (May 3, 2018)

Aaah, Mozart Off-Topic again 
I just figured out another exceptional Mozart piece: "The Messiah"
This also prooves that mozart was a genius, but nevertheless hiss music don't really fit into my taste.


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## ctsai89 (May 3, 2018)

CGR said:


> Wow. Surely good music is irrelevant to the IQ of the audience. Music appreciation is multi-faceted and more than an intellectual exercise.



You can google that yourself too. IQ and taste in music does have some kind of correlations involved


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## jamwerks (May 3, 2018)

Even people with relatively low IQ's should know to take certain off-topic discussions to dedicated threads. 

I find the Chopin demos stunningly good.


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## Nicola74 (May 3, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> You can google that yourself too. IQ and taste in music does have some kind of correlations involved


IQ tests are mostly based on mathematical and linguistic skills, they don't cover all the spectrum of human capacities. In reality they usually are very limited.
The studies by Howard Gardner about multiple intelligences or by John A. Sloboda go very deep in this argument.
Definitely too much off topic, I stop here


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## Leo (May 3, 2018)

Back to topic, who did already buy this piano? How rate it in comparison to the Garritan CFX or Light and Sound Concert Grand, Keyscape....


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## FabioA (May 3, 2018)

Demos sound really good to me, I really don't understand some of the comments this time 

I'd rather say these demos really sound like a real piano recording, and that's not what we always want in our production. I would love to hear close mics to understand the kind of details of this library. Also, I'm very curious about the half and re-pedaling..


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## Leo (May 3, 2018)

FabioA said:


> Demos sound really good to me, I really don't understand some of the comments this time
> 
> I'd rather say these demos really sound like a real piano recording, and that's not what we always want in our production. I would love to hear close mics to understand the kind of details of this library. Also, I'm very curious about the half and re-pedaling..


Close mic you can hear https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Synchron_Package/Yamaha_CFX#!Presets scroll down and listen Gershwin Intimate and player presets or pop...


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## good (May 3, 2018)

FabioA said:


> Demos sound really good to me, I really don't understand some of the comments this time



There were actually some technical problems(release sample and pedal handling) with the demos.
VSL said they fixed this problems already in the instruments and demos will be also fixed.
I didn't listen to demos yet today so I don't know they already fixed the demos.


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## richard kurek (May 3, 2018)

Leo said:


> Back to topic, who did already buy this piano? How rate it in comparison to the Garritan CFX or Light and Sound Concert Grand, Keyscape....


vsl cfx is comparable to the garrritan cfx , vsl has bugs as far as is it much better still too early too tell once the bugs are fixed , the one that stands out it note release , it doesnt release cleanly has the effect you would get on guitars when you slightly reduce pressure on the string and release , as far as sound you can get a touch more intimate and expression again havent really tweaked this is first impression, i dont have Keyscape never interested demos are fine but hide alot


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## Leo (May 3, 2018)

richard kurek said:


> vsl cfx is comparable to the garrritan cfx , vsl has bugs as far as is it much better still too early too tell once the bugs are fixed , the one that stands out it note release , it doesnt release cleanly has the effect you would get on guitars when you slightly reduce pressure on the string and release , as far as sound you can get a touch more intimate and expression again havent really tweaked this is first impression, i dont have Keyscape never interested demos are fine but hide alot


When one have garritan CFX it is worthwhile to invest also to VSL CFX? thanks.


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## kimarnesen (May 3, 2018)

Hi @Guy Bacos, any chance you can make some more demos in a bit different direction? Like emotional film piano music with different moods?


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## richard kurek (May 3, 2018)

Leo said:


> When one have garritan CFX it is worthwhile to invest also to VSL CFX? thanks.


this is a hard question for me i buy just about all libraries , always looking for that cutting edge, i find getting more expression yes it is , if you use it as an add on in a composition with orchestral work maybe not , i do jazz so for me it was worth it for the difference , Cinepiano works well also no complaints there


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## Guy Bacos (May 3, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> Hi @Guy Bacos, any chance you can make some more demos in a bit different direction? Like emotional film piano music with different moods?



Naturally, there will be countless demos and of various styles, this was just the original first batch, soon more will be uploaded, Glass, Satie, Debussy, and then some on video played in real time, and cinematic style will be on the menu of course, hopefully by next week.


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## Cartoon (May 3, 2018)

Did you notice that they changed the look of the mobile newsletter?

I really like it!


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## Cartoon (May 3, 2018)




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## Lee Blaske (May 3, 2018)

Got it all loaded this morning (I did have to reboot my computer before it showed up in the menu in Logic Pro)...
Spent several hours playing it. My verdict?

I LOVE IT!!! This is a totally amazing virtual instrument. Extremely versatile, and you can really shape the tone and the room. It feels great to play (I'm playing it with a Kawai VPC1, which gives me access to all the control and pedal possibilities). Really like the una corda sound. This instrument can be big and bold, sweet and intimate, and anything in between. The plug-in software design is fantastic. Really easy to get to the things you want to tweak. Looks beautiful, too. Things like pedal noise work very tastefully within the presets (what you'd expect from a quality instrument like that). Tuning sounds very good and consistent (there are no notes in the upper register with odd animation).

I've got a lot of piano libraries, but I must say, if I had to pack just one of them to have on a desert island, this would be the one going in the suitcase (although if I could get away with it, I'd also like to sneak in one of the nice felt libraries out there, too). 

Synchron Pianos is really something, IMO. Sure sounds to me like VSL did not compromise one iota on this project. They really captured this instrument as well as it can be captured with today's state-of-the-art-technology. FWIW, this instrument is a long, long way from Vienna Imperial. It's in a different league.


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## Lee Blaske (May 3, 2018)

Leo said:


> Back to topic, who did already buy this piano? How rate it in comparison to the Garritan CFX or Light and Sound Concert Grand, Keyscape....



Of the ones on your list, I only have Keyscape (which I like as a total package, but really don't care for the C7 on it). The Synchron Piano is an ENORMOUSLY better virtual piano than the Keyscape C7. They're not even close.


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## good (May 3, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Got it all loaded this morning



wow, fantastic! 
Which version did you buy Standard or Full?
Do you think Standard version will be good enough for a nice performance?


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## Lee Blaske (May 3, 2018)

good said:


> wow, fantastic!
> Which version did you buy Standard or Full?
> Will the Standard version good enough for a nice performance?



Standard. I'm not doing anything in surround at this point.


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## CGR (May 3, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Got it all loaded this morning (I did have to reboot my computer before it showed up in the menu in Logic Pro)...
> Spent several hours playing it. My verdict?
> 
> I LOVE IT!!! This is a totally amazing virtual instrument. Extremely versatile, and you can really shape the tone and the room. It feels great to play (I'm playing it with a Kawai VPC1, which gives me access to all the control and pedal possibilities). Really like the una corda sound. This instrument can be big and bold, sweet and intimate, and anything in between. The plug-in software design is fantastic. Really easy to get to the things you want to tweak. Looks beautiful, too. Things like pedal noise work very tastefully within the presets (what you'd expect from a quality instrument like that). Tuning sounds very good and consistent (there are no notes in the upper register with odd animation).
> ...


Thanks for your comments Lee - means a lot to hear from someone using it 'in the real world'. I'm liking the ambience I hear in the demos, and the sparkle & clarity contrasting with the powerful bass. Haven't heard much in a closer mic'd and dryer ambience production. Do you feel you'll be able to work with it in a contemporary, pop/jazz/blues or intimate film-score setting?


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## good (May 3, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Standard. I'm not doing anything in surround at this point.



Oh, I'll also buy Standard if I buy it.

BTW, Here are two samples of Garritan CFX and VSL CFX for the same demo.

Garritan CFX (played by diretonic who is unrelated to VSL)


VSL CFX (uploaded by VSL)


I think VSL CFX is more realistic in terms of tone and resonance than Garritan CFX, IMHO.
I wonder what others think.


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## Guy Bacos (May 3, 2018)

Did you transcribe the demo by ear?


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## good (May 3, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Did you transcribe the demo by ear?



Hi Guy Bacos. I like very much your etude on Youtube played by Vienna Imperial.
Person who play this demo by Garritan CFX is not me, but diretonic who is other user,
and according to his explanation, he seems to have transcribed the demo of VSL CFX by ear!


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## Gerbil (May 3, 2018)

The Garritan in that comparison. I'll probably pick up the VSL just because of an inability to not buy sampled pianos though.


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## keepitsimple (May 3, 2018)

good said:


> Oh, I'll also buy Standard if I buy it.
> 
> BTW, Here are two samples of Garritan CFX and VSL CFX for the same demo.
> 
> ...



VSL CFX sounds good but my rendition of Dire Tonic's midi file with the Garritan CFX *player mics* sounds as good. Most people seem to use the classic mic perspective in Garritan CFX and often overlook how good the player mics are. I think the choice of mics used in Garritan CFX player's perspective is better than the ones used for the classic perspective. But hey, my ears, my opinion.


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## al_net77 (May 4, 2018)

A simple example of ff - p - una corda:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/otiw1sbtp9xk8sj/Chopin Prelude Op 28 n 20 CFX.mp3?dl=0

Decca-tree concert perspective, centered.


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## Tfis (May 4, 2018)

Is the velocity response changed too, when pressing the soft pedal?


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## stigc56 (May 4, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> I strongly doubt that different people have different taste in deciding which music has soul or not.
> 
> However they might have different taste in preferring music without soul over the ones that have more soul. And vise versa.
> 
> ...


Come on!!


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## al_net77 (May 4, 2018)

Tfis said:


> Is the velocity response changed too, when pressing the soft pedal?



No, I was playing softer.


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## CGR (May 4, 2018)

Does anyone know if VSL plan to release a Synchron Stage Steinway D and Bosendorfer Imperial also?


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## kimarnesen (May 4, 2018)

good said:


> Oh, I'll also buy Standard if I buy it.
> 
> BTW, Here are two samples of Garritan CFX and VSL CFX for the same demo.
> 
> ...




I think the VSL one sounds wooden and more real than the Garritan, which has a plastic digital sound and feel to it.


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## kimarnesen (May 4, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Naturally, there will be countless demos and of various styles, this was just the original first batch, soon more will be uploaded, Glass, Satie, Debussy, and then some on video played in real time, and cinematic style will be on the menu of course, hopefully by next week.



Very good, and preferably some intimate demos as well, and piano + strings.


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## keepitsimple (May 4, 2018)

What i really like to know: Is the Player perspective "lacking" or incomplete in the standard version? The reason i'm asking is because they seem to exclude the "Close 2" mic from the standard edition which per VSL microphones description on the instrument's page seems to play a vital role in the Player perspective.

I'm stressing on the player perspective because it seems to be the only one that showcases the clear/in your face/non-ambient sound of the piano.


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## newman (May 4, 2018)

The VSL CFX and some of the other new VIs are getting a lot of discussion over at PianoWorld. Those forums are principally for classical piano players, so the comments provide a different angle on these new VIs. Please drop by:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...ming-yamaha-cfx-vst-from-vsl.html#Post2731968


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## Gerbil (May 6, 2018)

Well I bought it. First impressions: It has the potential to be the best sampled piano. Brilliant dynamic range, feels good to play and I love the mixer and mic choices. I've seen a customer mention the powerful bass but weak treble (which I thought as well from the original demos) but, now I've played it, I disagree; it's nicely balanced.

My concern lies not so much with the tuning that I've seen others mention or any brighter notes (which can usually be tamed with a surgical eq - be nice to have the option in the interface btw) but the release samples which, in their current state, do not sound at all natural. Abrupt cutoffs that make it sound (and feel) like I'm playing a clavinet, particularly in fast, light staccato passages. They need tweaking and I really miss the release function present in a number of other virtual pianos such as the Garritan CFX. If they can get this right then this will be a killer instrument.

It's interesting to compare it to the other two sampled piano libraries I've bought of late: the L&S and the Cinepiano. I really like the latter just to play but, now I've got to know it, it does have some abrupt velocity jumps that make it a lovely sounding but somewhat niche product. I don't regret the purchase though. I wish I could say the same about the L&S grand which I like less and less the more I play it. It is absolutely riddled with flaws and there are some curious mic choices that I find wearing on my ears. It was only $99 but it still feels like a beta release to me.


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## kimarnesen (May 6, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> Well I bought it. First impressions: It has the potential to be the best sampled piano. Brilliant dynamic range, feels good to play and I love the mixer and mic choices. I've seen a customer mention the powerful bass but weak treble (which I thought as well from the original demos) but, now I've played it, I disagree; it's nicely balanced.
> 
> My concern lies not so much with the tuning that I've seen others mention or any brighter notes (which can usually be tamed with a surgical eq - be nice to have the option in the interface btw) but the release samples which, in their current state, do not sound at all natural. Abrupt cutoffs that make it sound (and feel) like I'm playing a clavinet, particularly in fast, light staccato passages. They need tweaking and I really miss the release function present in a number of other virtual pianos such as the Garritan CFX. If they can get this right then this will be a killer instrument.
> 
> It's interesting to compare it to the other two sampled piano libraries I've bought of late: the L&S and the Cinepiano. I really like the latter just to play but, now I've got to know it, it does have some abrupt velocity jumps that make it a lovely sounding but somewhat niche product. I don't regret the purchase though. I wish I could say the same about the L&S grand which I like less and less the more I play it. It is absolutely riddled with flaws and there are some curious mic choices that I find wearing on my ears. It was only $99 but it still feels like a beta release to me.



Would love to hear you compare them.


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## Lee Blaske (May 6, 2018)

Gerbil said:


> My concern lies not so much with the tuning that I've seen others mention or any brighter notes (which can usually be tamed with a surgical eq - be nice to have the option in the interface btw) but the release samples which, in their current state, do not sound at all natural. Abrupt cutoffs that make it sound (and feel) like I'm playing a clavinet, particularly in fast, light staccato passages. They need tweaking and I really miss the release function present in a number of other virtual pianos such as the Garritan CFX.



I think the abruptly cut off notes are actually a feature, because they're using different samples (or at least, different cut-offs) for those short notes. That's one area where a lot of libraries fall short, because the cut off sound on a short note is very different from a long note (the dampers are choking off a lot of energy very quickly in the case of a short note). But, it's a real technical challenge to make a virtual instrument do this. When you first play a note, the virtual instrument has no idea if it's going to be long or short. It can't read your mind.  So, if it's going to be an instrument that can be played spontaneously in real time, it needs to be prepared to give you the long note cut-off, or the short note cut-off. It would be interesting for a developer to explain some of the technology they're using to do this. Must be some kind of timer. Pretty amazing that things are at a point where they're doing this. I would imagine that these are the kinds of things that can be tweaked endlessly (all the timings and volume levels that are engaged by relatively little MIDI controller information). So, maybe we'll see a revision that's a little better. But this is probably part of the reason that there are 4,200 samples per note in this instrument. Maybe to capture even more nuance will require 10,000 samples per note. It could be that we've reached the point where we need keyboard controllers that send more information about what a key is doing than just note on, velocity and note off.


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## Pianolando (May 6, 2018)

Count_Fuzzball said:


> I know Garritan gets alot of hate around these parts.. Is the CFX legitimately good?!



It is very good, definitely one of the best ones out there.


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## Nicola74 (May 6, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I think the abruptly cut off notes are actually a feature, because they're using different samples (or at least, different cut-offs) for those short notes. That's one area where a lot of libraries fall short, because the cut off sound on a short note is very different from a long note (the dampers are choking off a lot of energy very quickly in the case of a short note). But, it's a real technical challenge to make a virtual instrument do this. When you first play a note, the virtual instrument has no idea if it's going to be long or short. It can't read your mind.  So, if it's going to be an instrument that can be played spontaneously in real time, it needs to be prepared to give you the long note cut-off, or the short note cut-off. It would be interesting for a developer to explain some of the technology they're using to do this. Must be some kind of timer. Pretty amazing that things are at a point where they're doing this. I would imagine that these are the kinds of things that can be tweaked endlessly (all the timings and volume levels that are engaged by relatively little MIDI controller information). So, maybe we'll see a revision that's a little better. But this is probably part of the reason that there are 4,200 samples per note in this instrument. Maybe to capture even more nuance will require 10,000 samples per note. It could be that we've reached the point where we need keyboard controllers that send more information about what a key is doing than just note on, velocity and note off.


...like, for example, how fast you release the key, in a real piano it can be important


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## CGR (May 7, 2018)

Out of interest, I ran the midi file of the VSL CFX demo recreation by diretonic through a sampled Yamaha C7:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl-cfx-demo-recreation-c7-mp3.13318/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Guy Bacos (May 7, 2018)

Just a footnote, this midi file is not the same interpretation as on the VSL demo, there are inaccuracies, I know since I wrote it. Someone else transcribed it by ear, still good job, but a bit off.


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## Lee Blaske (May 7, 2018)

Quick little demo soloing over jazz standard changes here using the Synchron Piano with a more intimate, lounge sound. I started with the 02 Intimate to Sur Stereo preset and tweaked the EQ a bit. Turned off the reverb in the plug-in and added some 2CAudio B2 reverb. Waves Kramer Tape plug-in on the master bus.


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## keepitsimple (May 7, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Quick little demo soloing over jazz standard changes here using the Synchron Piano with a more intimate, lounge sound. I started with the 02 Intimate to Sur Stereo preset and tweaked the EQ a bit. Turned off the reverb in the plug-in and added some 2CAudio B2 reverb. Waves Kramer Tape plug-in on the master bus.



Very nice solo, i like your ideas. You mention Sur Stereo. Correct me if i'm wrong but don't you have the standard version?


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## Lee Blaske (May 7, 2018)

keepitsimple said:


> Very nice solo, i like your ideas. You mention Sur Stereo. Correct me if i'm wrong but don't you have the standard version?



Yes, I just have the standard version at this point. I selected the 02 Intimate Sur to Stereo preset, which is available to me in the list, and loads when you select it. But now going back and looking at the Mix page, I guess I'm not actually getting the "Close 2" mic position, but just "Close 1." So, that must be the only position that's sounding here (even though that preset loads).

Still figuring this plug-in out. I thought it was some type of pre-mix (like the mixes in a lot of Spitfire Audio products).


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## theohjorth (May 8, 2018)

Have any of you bought the full version? 
Im primarily using it for live use - playing salsa, jazz, gospel etc., and have the standard version now, but I cant decide if the other close microphone is worth the extra € 165.. 
Any thoughts on that?


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## Sovereign (May 8, 2018)

Bought the standard edition. Between the Synchron piano and CinePiano which I also recently bought there's no doubt that Synchron is on top in terms of sound quality and accurate reproduction of the instrument. Well done, VSL. I'm impressed.


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## C-Wave (May 8, 2018)

Question: what do i get if i am to buy the standard version if i have vienna Imperial.. besides the tone ofthe actual physical piano (bosendorfer vs yamaha).. and i dont mean the statistics, but in actual playability.


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## al_net77 (May 8, 2018)

C-Wave said:


> Question: what do i get if i am to buy the standard version if i have vienna Imperial.. besides the tone ofthe actual physical piano (bosendorfer vs yamaha).. and i dont mean the statistics, but in actual playability.



I own both. CFX has better dynamics and a much better pedal management, more playable in general.
Something strange in symphatetic resonance and missing silent key, I asked on VSL forum but no response for now.


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## C-Wave (May 8, 2018)

al_net77 said:


> I own both. CFX has better dynamics and a much better pedal management, more playable in general.
> Something strange in symphatetic resonance and missing silent key, I asked on VSL forum but no response for now.


thanks for the reply.. but what do you mean by “something strange..” do you mean because its not there?


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## mobileavatar (May 8, 2018)

al_net77 said:


> Something strange in symphatetic resonance and missing silent key, I asked on VSL forum but no response for now.



Yes, hope they will add back the "silent key" feature if it is currently missing. How about re-pedalling? How well does it work compared to other similar products?


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## al_net77 (May 8, 2018)

C-Wave said:


> thanks for the reply.. but what do you mean by “something strange..” do you mean because its not there?



There is something in the sound that changes if you set symphatetic res more than -inf, but IMHO is quite different from usual symphatetic resonance; the sound seems more "resonant", but if you keep a chord pressed and you play lower notes, there is no string vibrating...


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## al_net77 (May 8, 2018)

mobileavatar said:


> Yes, hope they will add back the "silent key" feature if it is currently missing. How about re-pedalling? How well does it work compared to other similar products?



I like very much the pedal management in general, I think they did a good job with this part. At now I would put it on top, better than Garritan. Moreover, in "Options" you have the possibility to turn on the "continuous pedal", if you have a good pedal system this make the difference.


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## Lee Blaske (May 8, 2018)

al_net77 said:


> Moreover, in "Options" you have the possibility to turn on the "continuous pedal", if you have a good pedal system this make the difference.



Yes, that's really noticeable. It works well.


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## Lee Blaske (May 8, 2018)

C-Wave said:


> Question: what do i get if i am to buy the standard version if i have vienna Imperial.. besides the tone ofthe actual physical piano (bosendorfer vs yamaha).. and i dont mean the statistics, but in actual playability.



I also own the Vienna Imperial, which I thought was a very good instrument in its time. I predict, though, if you get the Synchron Pianos CFX, you probably won't be using the Imperial all that much anymore. 

To me, the Synchron Pianos CFX just seems a lot more playable. Pedaling and note release are just a lot better.

I would think there's a lot of technology going on under the hood of this instrument, and a lot of it is proprietary. On the VSL page describing this instrument, they describe some of it. I'm not expecting them to explain thing in depth, though, because they probably don't want to give away their trade secrets. 

But, this paragraph from the instrument description on their site explains why the releases feel good. They went through a LOT of effort to raise the bar on this aspect of the way a sampled piano engine works. Not sure if any other developer is doing this sort of thing to this degree...

"*Advanced Release Sample Technology*
Capturing the notes with all the velocities and especially at various tone lengths with their subtle nuances is a major challenge in the art of piano sampling – and it’s particularly tricky when recording the instrument with the ambience of a scoring stage. This is where Vienna’s new Release Sample Technology comes in. The team developed a unique, proprietary technique that automatically matches up to 300 individual and finely grained release samples _per key_ to your played notes. The result is a hyper-realistic playing feel and 100% timbral authenticity."


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## jamwerks (May 8, 2018)

That Release-sample technology looks similar to what they did in their Percussion library.


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## keepitsimple (May 8, 2018)

Interesting. From what i'm reading on all the forums so far (including the VSL community forum), this piano seems like a step up over every piano library in term of playability, realism and response. And the positive feedback from new owners seems to outweigh the shortcomings.

Still waiting for my Vienna key in the mail ( first time VSL customer) and will be looking forward to test drive it in two days.


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## kimarnesen (May 9, 2018)

Even if I haven't got to play with it a lot yet since its making VEP to crash every 20 seconds, I'm surprised how thin and digital the upper range sounds so far. It's always a bit disappointing when a library out of the box doesn't sound at all as the demos (and this is a piano, so how different should it be? But this is just my first impression and it's difficult to explore it with all the crashing.


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## C-Wave (May 9, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> Even if I haven't got to play with it a lot yet since its making VEP to crash every 20 seconds, I'm surprised how thin and digital the upper range sounds so far. It's always a bit disappointing when a library out of the box doesn't sound at all as the demos (and this is a piano, so how different should it be? But this is just my first impression and it's difficult to explore it with all the crashing.


speaking of crashing, have you updated VEP to the May 7 update?


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## kimarnesen (May 9, 2018)

C-Wave said:


> speaking of crashing, have you updated VEP to the May 7 update?



Yes.


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## Leo (May 9, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> Even if I haven't got to play with it a lot yet since its making VEP to crash every 20 seconds, I'm surprised how thin and digital the upper range sounds so far. It's always a bit disappointing when a library out of the box doesn't sound at all as the demos (and this is a piano, so how different should it be? But this is just my first impression and it's difficult to explore it with all the crashing.


I'm very close to buy this piano - thin and digital the upper range sounds? Please can I ask for a small example?
And what you think it's suitable for movie - cinematic music? I mean also intimate sounds.


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## richard kurek (May 9, 2018)

Leo said:


> I'm very close to buy this piano - thin and digital the upper range sounds? Please can I ask for a small example?
> And what you think it's suitable for movie - cinematic music? I mean also intimate sounds?


 i find it is softer sounding piano than garritan cfx


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## Leo (May 9, 2018)

great for vsl, because garritan is not my true love - in sound (and his company don't allow reselling)..


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## Lee Blaske (May 10, 2018)

Here's another VSL Synchron Pianos (Standard Edition) demo. This piece is a quick improvisation in more of a cinematic vein, fleshed out with some strings and woodwinds. I was going for a soft and intimate sound on this one. Most of the sound here is Close Mic 1 position with just a touch of room. Not using the built in reverb here, but rather 2CAudio B-2. If you're looking for a warmer sound out of this piano, the Global Midi Sensitivity control is your friend.


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## Leo (May 10, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Here's another VSL Synchron Pianos (Standard Edition) demo. This piece is a quick improvisation in more of a cinematic vein, fleshed out with some strings and woodwinds. I was going for a soft and intimate sound on this one. Most of the sound here is Close Mic 1 position with just a touch of room. Not using the built in reverb here, but rather 2CAudio B-2. If you're looking for a warmer sound out of this piano, the Global Midi Sensitivity control is your friend.



Many thanks Lee for this soft example, piano sound very nice.


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## afg (May 10, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Here's another VSL Synchron Pianos (Standard Edition) demo. This piece is a quick improvisation in more of a cinematic vein, fleshed out with some strings and woodwinds. I was going for a soft and intimate sound on this one. Most of the sound here is Close Mic 1 position with just a touch of room. Not using the built in reverb here, but rather 2CAudio B-2. If you're looking for a warmer sound out of this piano, the Global Midi Sensitivity control is your friend.



Beautiful composition.


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## novaburst (May 10, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Here's another VSL Synchron Pianos (Standard Edition) demo. This piece is a quick improvisation in more of a cinematic vein, fleshed out with some strings and woodwinds. I was going for a soft and intimate sound on this one. Most of the sound here is Close Mic 1 position with just a touch of room. Not using the built in reverb here, but rather 2CAudio B-2. If you're looking for a warmer sound out of this piano, the Global Midi Sensitivity control is your friend.




Piano sounds very nice, very nice piece too


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## kimarnesen (May 10, 2018)

Leo said:


> I'm very close to buy this piano - thin and digital the upper range sounds? Please can I ask for a small example?
> And what you think it's suitable for movie - cinematic music? I mean also intimate sounds.



I don't think it would be fair of me to post an example yet or say what it's suitable for, as I've been experiencing crashes every 20 seconds. However, VSL just sent me an update which they will release officially soon, so it's not crashing anymore. 

I want to explore it more until I judge it too much, but what I feel so far is that in the bottom and mid range it sounds very convincing as a piano. I just compared it to my 8Dio Studio Piano, and it made that one sound very digital, plastic and dead. But I still feel the higher range of the Yamaha CFX has a bit digital sound especially when the keys are hit hard and short. 

I prefer the concert preset so far.


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## richard kurek (May 10, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Here's another VSL Synchron Pianos (Standard Edition) demo. This piece is a quick improvisation in more of a cinematic vein, fleshed out with some strings and woodwinds. I was going for a soft and intimate sound on this one. Most of the sound here is Close Mic 1 position with just a touch of room. Not using the built in reverb here, but rather 2CAudio B-2. If you're looking for a warmer sound out of this piano, the Global Midi Sensitivity control is your friend.



what value do you have on the midi sensitivity control , plus i like your feeling on this piece


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## kimarnesen (May 10, 2018)

A quick example of the high range while trying to create an intimate, cinematic preset. The "global midi sensitivity" meter is set to -34.8 which helps with the thin feeling of the high range. For this example, the reverb is from Spaces and Lexicon RandomHall.


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## Lee Blaske (May 10, 2018)

richard kurek said:


> what value do you have on the midi sensitivity control , plus i like your feeling on this piece



Thanks. On this track, Midi Sensitivity was set at -26.4 (using it with a Kawai VPC1 controller). Obviously, this is something to set to taste, based on what you're feeling. It'll influence how you play, but it's also nice to tweak it after the fact (on some tracks, it might be useful to automate it in different sections). FWIW, Dyamic was set at 100% and Body is at 24%.


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## richard kurek (May 10, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> Thanks. On this track, Midi Sensitivity was set at -26.4 (using it with a Kawai VPC1 controller). Obviously, this is something to set to taste, based on what you're feeling. It'll influence how you play, but it's also nice to tweak it after the fact (on some tracks, it might be useful to automate it in different sections). FWIW, Dyamic was set at 100% and Body is at 24%.


i also have the vpc1 thank you


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## Leo (May 10, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> A quick example of the high range while trying to create an intimate, cinematic preset. The "global midi sensitivity" meter is set to -34.8 which helps with the thin feeling of the high range. For this example, the reverb is from Spaces and Lexicon RandomHall.



Thanks Kim for very nice example! Also piano still sounded pretty good even in higher position, Garritan in this case is not so well sounding.


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## Vadium (May 12, 2018)

As I see, SY_CFX has quantity of velocity layers close to Vienna Imperial, more than in Garritan and much more than East West pianos. On the pictures you can see a steps for one note repetition from Velocity = 0 to 127, about 3 notes per one velocity value.
Synchron CFX in standard edition has not enough intimate close sound for me (as it exist in Garritan), it has different kinds of far, debarred sound. May be close mics in full edition have more close color?

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/synchron-cfx-velocity-mp3.13371/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Cartoon (May 13, 2018)

The walktrough Video


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## Gerbil (May 13, 2018)

Good video. I'm really digging this VP now. It's very flexible and feels alive under the fingers now I've spent time tweaking it.

Nice Jazz demo earlier in the thread, Lee. It showcases it very well.


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## keepitsimple (May 13, 2018)

I might have to upgrade to the full version. I like the sound of the close mic 2 better than close mic 1. I'm not really a fan of the sound of mics recorded very close to the strings and this Youtube video confirms it even more for me. 

I'm still waiting for my Vienna Key to arrive (!) so i haven't even tested the standard version yet. Hopefully i can temper that close mic 1 by mixing it with other room mics so i can get the sound i want, that way i won't have to buy the full version. We'll see.


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## kimarnesen (May 14, 2018)

After playing with this for a little while now, I can honestly say that this is the first sampled grand piano that makes me a better pianist because it's so good. This only happens with real instruments. I can just do improv forever.

And you can really shape the piano to whatever style or sound you want, so it's very flexible.


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## artinro (May 14, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> After playing with this for a little while now, I can honestly say that this is the first sampled grand piano that makes me a better pianist because it's so good. This only happens with real instruments. I can just do improv forever.
> 
> And you can really shape the piano to whatever style or sound you want, so it's very flexible.



@kimarnesen Just out of curiosity, what changed your mind about this piano? I noticed a few pages back you were somewhat concerned about the upper range being thin/synthetic. Was it just a matter of fiddling with the mics and other settings to shape the sound to your personal preference?


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## Virtual Virgin (May 14, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> 85% of the world's population fall in the IQ range of 80~110. Or something like that. Google it if you would like.



100 is calibrated to the average (mean) so your sampling window (80-110) is skewed for referencing a normal distribution curve.


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## Vadium (May 14, 2018)

Could anybody, who have a full library, upload same example, played by only close 1 and close 2 mics for compare? (also Mid 1 and Mid2?) I'm not understand, why only presets comparing placed on VSL site.. Why to mix close mic with a room mix? - a close mic already exist in the room mix.. - it is a way to have a phase problems..


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## kimarnesen (May 14, 2018)

artinro said:


> @kimarnesen Just out of curiosity, what changed your mind about this piano? I noticed a few pages back you were somewhat concerned about the upper range being thin/synthetic. Was it just a matter of fiddling with the mics and other settings to shape the sound to your personal preference?



Yes, out of the box it sounds thin in the high range but there are ways to change the timbre. Also, the intimate preset makes it sound very digital, so I prefer shaping my own sound and save my own presets. So with the sound of the piano as a basis, the mics and the other settings it’s quite versatile. It’s as if there are many different pianos in one library.


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## artinro (May 14, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> Yes, out of the box it sounds thin in the high range but there are ways to change the timbre. Also, the intimate preset makes it sound very digital, so I prefer shaping my own sound and save my own presets. So with the sound of the piano as a basis, the mics and the other settings it’s quite versatile. It’s as if there are many different pianos in one library.



Glad to hear. Thinking of picking it up this afternoon. Seems it's being universally lauded.


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## SGordB (May 14, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> After playing with this for a little while now, I can honestly say that this is the first sampled grand piano that makes me a better pianist because it's so good. This only happens with real instruments. I can just do improv forever.
> 
> And you can really shape the piano to whatever style or sound you want, so it's very flexible.


That's music to my ears (if not necessarilly my pocketbook). Which other piano VIs have been your benchmarks of excellence prior to this one? Do you have much experience playing acoustic grands?


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## kimarnesen (May 14, 2018)

SGordB said:


> That's music to my ears (if not necessarilly my pocketbook). Which other piano VIs have been your benchmarks of excellence prior to this one? Do you have much experience playing acoustic grands?



I'm not a professional concert pianist, but piano has been my instrument. I mainly use it for composing today and nothing beats being alone in a cathedral or a hall with a great grand piano of course, but with this one, I get a bit of the same feeling, except that I don't have any stained glass windows to look at for even more inspiration 

As far as I can remember I've had Ravenscroft 275, Production Voices Grand, The Hammersmith, 8Dio Studio Piano, Piano in Blue, The Giant, Cinematic Studio Piano, Galaxy Steinway, Emotional Piano, Spitfire Orchestral Grand, tried some East-West and Native Instruments pianos and I think I've sold some I might have forgotten. So there's a few I haven't tried, but mainly because of weaknesses revealed from their demos. I've been disappointed by all the ones mentioned here by the way, probably because I mercilessly compare them to a real one 

By the way, the Woodchester Piano is gorgeous, but not for any style.


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## ctsai89 (May 14, 2018)

Virtual Virgin said:


> 100 is calibrated to the average (mean) so your sampling window (80-110) is skewed for referencing a normal distribution curve.



100 is average for most 1st world countries but not for a lot of other countries


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## chapbot (May 14, 2018)

Vadium said:


> Could anybody, who have a full library, upload same example, played by only close 1 and close 2 mics for compare?


Yeah - I have the standard and am also interested in how the close 1 and 2 compare - I like the sound of 2 from what you can hear on their walkthrough video.


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## SGordB (May 14, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> I'm not a professional concert pianist, but piano has been my instrument. I mainly use it for composing today and nothing beats being alone in a cathedral or a hall with a great grand piano of course, but with this one, I get a bit of the same feeling, except that I don't have any stained glass windows to look at for even more inspiration
> 
> As far as I can remember I've had Ravenscroft 275, Production Voices Grand, The Hammersmith, 8Dio Studio Piano, Piano in Blue, The Giant, Cinematic Studio Piano, Galaxy Steinway, Emotional Piano, Spitfire Orchestral Grand, tried some East-West and Native Instruments pianos and I think I've sold some I might have forgotten. So there's a few I haven't tried, but mainly because of weaknesses revealed from their demos. I've been disappointed by all the ones mentioned here by the way, probably because I mercilessly compare them to a real one
> 
> By the way, the Woodchester Piano is gorgeous, but not for any style.



Damn! You, plus the demos and walkthrough, are making it hard for me to resist. I'm a VSL fanboy, even without the pianos.


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## al_net77 (May 14, 2018)

I confirm, this piano has become my every-day piano for playability. Very near to my grand, but with better sound


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## germancomponist (May 14, 2018)

Huh, I remember when this thread started with that demo in mono .... . Now after listening to the demos and the walk through I have to say that I am now very impressed by the sound and options. Very cool and good!


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## kimarnesen (May 14, 2018)

SGordB said:


> Damn! You, plus the demos and walkthrough, are making it hard for me to resist. I'm a VSL fanboy, even without the pianos.



I know the feeling  But everyone has different taste, so I can only give you my experience with it, and can't say you gonna love it.


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## Casiquire (May 14, 2018)

"The first piano in the Synchron series"

Uhm. Explain!


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## SGordB (May 14, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> I know the feeling  But everyone has different taste, so I can only give you my experience with it, and can't say you gonna love it.


No need for a disclaimer  I know that’s a given. Myself, for example, Garritan’s CFX has become my go-to - and that’s only the Lite version.


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## SGordB (May 14, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> "The first piano in the Synchron series"
> 
> Uhm. Explain!


There’s a really good YouTube video of a pianist associated with VSL demonstrating the differing characters of the pianos in the Synchron hall. The other two, iirc, are a Steinway D and a Boesendorfer.


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## good (May 14, 2018)

I keep thinking whether to buy this VI or not.
Is it worth paying approximately $200/$400 and buying VSL CFX as a Garitan CFX user?
If I buy, will Standard edition be enough?

I expect them to upload the actual playing video to YouTube.


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## Casiquire (May 14, 2018)

SGordB said:


> There’s a really good YouTube video of a pianist associated with VSL demonstrating the differing characters of the pianos in the Synchron hall. The other two, iirc, are a Steinway D and a Boesendorfer.



I saw that and much preferred the other two pianos, hence my interest in that statement.


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## Cartoon (May 15, 2018)

SGordB said:


> There’s a really good YouTube video of a pianist associated with VSL demonstrating the differing characters of the pianos in the Synchron hall. The other two, iirc, are a Steinway D and a Boesendorfer.



For all who don't know the video:


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## yafna (May 15, 2018)

this library is much better than others.


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## silverlight7 (May 15, 2018)

good said:


> I keep thinking whether to buy this VI or not.
> Is it worth paying approximately $200/$400 and buying VSL CFX as a Garitan CFX user?
> If I buy, will Standard edition be enough?
> 
> I expect them to upload the actual playing video to YouTube.



Also wondering if VSL CFX is really that much better than Garritan CFX. Wasn't really impressed by the official demos, and I've been holding out for Production Voices Concert Grand (Steinway). I'd rather have another piano than the same kind sampled differently.


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## Lee Blaske (May 15, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Also wondering if VSL CFX is really that much better than Garritan CFX. Wasn't really impressed by the official demos, and I've been holding out for Production Voices Concert Grand (Steinway). I'd rather have another piano than the same kind sampled differently.



I think this is going to be an ongoing quandary for all of us who have already made significant investments in piano libraries. Are the new products truly better than what we currently own, or maybe just a bit different?

Add to that the fact that VSL will most likely be giving the same treatment to the Boesendorfer and Steinway they have a their Synchron Studio. Those will have a different sound. But, I also wonder if having gone through the process once with the Yamaha CFX, will they have gained some knowledge and experience and do a better job on the next subjects?

That said, I'm still really enjoying the Synchron Yamaha CFX. Still strikes me as being a real breakthrough. Really useful for a very wide variety of styles, and just feels exceptional my fingers and sustain pedal foot (in a way that a lot of other libraries simply don't). For a lot of things, it's now going to be my go-to sampled grand piano.

Of the other two pianos they have, I'm certainly interested in hearing what they do with both of them, but I'm thinking it's more likely that I'll be interested in the Steinway (seems to me it would be a good contrast to the forward, bright character of the Yamaha CFX).


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## silverlight7 (May 15, 2018)

Lee Blaske said:


> I think this is going to be an ongoing quandary for all of us who have already made significant investments in piano libraries. Are the new products truly better than what we currently own, or maybe just a bit different?
> 
> Add to that the fact that VSL will most likely be giving the same treatment to the Boesendorfer and Steinway they have a their Synchron Studio. Those will have a different sound. But, I also wonder if having gone through the process once with the Yamaha CFX, will they have gained some knowledge and experience and do a better job on the next subjects?
> 
> ...



I'm glad to hear that VSL CFX is very playable! I'll probably wait for the Synchron Steinway and Bosendorfer pianos.


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## newman (May 15, 2018)

silverlight7 said:


> Also wondering if VSL CFX is really that much better than Garritan CFX. Wasn't really impressed by the official demos, and I've been holding out for Production Voices Concert Grand (Steinway). I'd rather have another piano than the same kind sampled differently.



I have the Garritan CFX, the Production Voices Concert Grand Compact (Steinway), and PianoTeq. My quick thoughts as one who uses this for playing basic classical piano live at home, not recording. Obviously these are completely different pianos recorded at different studios, etc.

I find the Garritan CFX is beautiful and more refined but the smoothness, ambience and noise floor does get a bit boring from time-to-time. The PVCGC is more wild and more engaging to play; it needs another mic perspective and could be tightened up a bit as noted below. PianoTeq plays so well but often sounds like a toy to me.

-- The Garritan CFX is a favorite for practicing & live playing classical music at the pianoworld forums. It is well sampled, plays evenly, is responsive and has good pedalling. The ambience of the room is an integral part of the samples so that might be an issue if you don't like or want the room. The samples have a rather high noise floor but that might be part of the reason the ambience is so nice. The most popular setup for classical pianists at pianoworld is the close + ambient mics that default on the Full version; I don't think many players are using other mic perspectives.

-- PVCGC is an "lid mic only" version which I see as a beta-sampler. PV said they will release full versions with additional mic perspectives soon. I also enjoy playing this piano. The samples are very clear and the room ambience is pleasant, albeit less "obvious" than the room ambience in Garritan CFX. The piano, samples and scripting are a bit rough so PV has just a bit more work to complete in my view; pedalling also needs a bit of tweaking. Sounds and plays a lot like the "lottery-luck" wonderful Steinway grand at my piano teacher's house. I strongly prefer this beta version using earbuds vs. monitors. In my view, this could be a wonderful Steinway after:

1) Combining close mics with the lid mics (this WILL happen with release of Full version)

2) Sorting the pedalling and "normalising" the samples a bit (HOPE this happens - so close to top-tier)


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## wbacer (May 15, 2018)

When loaded directly into Cubase 9.5 (Mac), it works great but if I have Synchron Piano (full version) instantiated in VEPro 6 running either on my Mac or PC slave, as soon as Cubase connects to VEPro, VEPro crashes.
I've contacted VSL support and sent them the crash dump file but I have not heard back from them.
I'm running the latest version of Cubase, VEPro etc.
Anyone else experience this issue?


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## silverlight7 (May 15, 2018)

newman said:


> I have the Garritan CFX, the Production Voices Concert Grand Compact (Steinway), and PianoTeq. My quick thoughts as one who uses this for playing basic classical piano live at home, not recording. Obviously these are completely different pianos recorded at different studios, etc.
> 
> I find the Garritan CFX is beautiful and more refined but the smoothness, ambience and noise floor does get a bit boring from time-to-time. The PVCGC is more wild and a perhaps more engaging to play; it needs another mic perspective and could be tightened up a bit as noted below. PianoTeq plays so well but often sounds like a toy to me.
> 
> ...



Yes, I own all three of these libraries as well, and I completely agree with your opinions on them.

I also feel that the full version of Production Voices Concert Grand has so much potential. To my ears, the compact version is the best-sounding Steinway library I've tried yet. It's a lot closer to sounding like a real Steinway than other Steinway libraries.


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## good (May 15, 2018)

I bought Standard library. This is so realistic than I expected.
I worried about the ambience issue before I buy, but it reached a satisfactory level after touching some settings. First I loaded Player preset, and increased the level of the close & main mics, which has strengthened the stringy sound, but decreased (too much) distant tone. I also decreased the reverb (especially close mic's reverb) and Room-mix mic's volume.
Someone said the high register is little thin, but wasn't to me.
I put this instrument on the top tier of my own VI.

The only weakness I think is the loading speed. However, this has little effect on pulling down the instrument from the top tier. This issue is solved by setting up the instrument about 10 minutes before using it. (HDD point of view)
gorgeous.


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## re-peat (May 16, 2018)

good said:


> The only weakness I think is the loading speed.


SSD makes a dramatic difference. Over here, the CFX loads in a matter of seconds; literally. 
(The Player-plugin takes longer to load than the library.)

Anyone can get the Note Volume (in the 'Edit' tab) to work, by the way? Doesn't appear to be doing anything at all. 
Maybe I'm overlooking something, or else it's a little bug.

_


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## Francis Bourre (May 16, 2018)

I bought it, shame on me, I'm a kind of virtual piano collector.

I wanted to participate to this thread to say: "Be careful... I mean, not everyone will like it. There's no ultimate piano, and imho this one is far away to enter the category if there is one." Btw, the quest for the ultimate piano is pointless, because every acoustic piano sound is different, so how you would compare them, and more than that, the context matters, definitely. Last but not least, it's fully subjective, and this subjectivity is the fruit of your own experience/culture. Mine is coming from a jazz pianist background.

So from my own experience and needs, I was disappointed, because the sound is too thin for my use, and not only in the high. It lacks of body as well. It's too clean, I can't feel the instrument under my fingers, so I can't believe I'm playing piano, and without wanting to be rude with the product, I would say it sounds a bit dead. I should add that I'm not super fan of the Yamaha C7 sound in general, but that's fine in the right context. About VSL version, I will never use it as it is for a (live or recorded) solo performance. When you go beyond the scope of the hype cinematic pianos drowned in a hall reverb (I think most of the virtual pianos are good enough to play in this category, because the requirements are such low), there's not so much products left to deliver an enjoyable intimate dry acoustic solo experience. And when you find some, the marathon is not over, you have to deal with many sample inconsistencies (eq, release...) spread on the keyboard, and many times, find some tricks to make your experience less clinic (adding noises, harmonics, colors...).

To conclude about VSL, it still has bugs with sustain pedal and samples release, I made a report, and I'm sure they'll fix it asap. I would recommend to test it it if you're interested in. I'm pretty sure you can be reimbursed later if you change your mind before the limit date (14 days?). I did it with VSL Synchron Strings. Just be careful about the general enthusiasm, there are definitely lot of alternatives that can give you better time depending on your own background and needs.
A positive note to end this post, I'm using the closed mic as a layer for a bigger piano patch. I like the tone it adds to the final sound. And yeah, it's weird, but you can mix piano samples together to create new sounds, if you didn't try yet, you should definitely give it a try.


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## good (May 16, 2018)

re-peat said:


> SSD makes a dramatic difference.



Of course I thought that way, but I have 128GB SSD at C drive that don't have enough space for this CFX.
so I'm looking for one more SSD that has about 256GB.

First I'll copy&paste only the microphone I need in ssd.



Francis Bourre said:


> Mine is coming from a jazz pianist background.



I think this CFX is rather suited for classical music than jazz. For thin tones, it can be supplemented slightly more by Mix settings.
Yes, this has a few shortcomings, but imo this is the most realistic piano VI I've ever played and heard of.


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## yafna (May 16, 2018)

I always think that virtual piano is still developing fields.
In the first place, system that soft and MIDI keyboard composed never work well like a expensive grand piano.
but,these are evolving day by day and I need to use virtual piano. so I always look for something better.
I think this library is top now.


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## Francis Bourre (May 16, 2018)

good said:


> I think this CFX is rather suited for classical music than jazz. For thin tones, it can be supplemented slightly more by Mix settings.
> Yes, this has a few shortcomings, but imo this is the most realistic piano VI I've ever played and heard of.



Ok, to be more efficient, I should illustrate what I'm talking about.
This is one of the virtual piano I'm using. I recorded some notes from the low to the high to compare the realism, the subtleties and the expressiveness.


Now, this is the same excerpt with the VSL


For me, VSL doesn't do the job.


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## good (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Ok, to be more efficient, I should illustrate what I'm talking about.
> This is one of the virtual piano I'm using. I recorded some notes from the low to the high to compare the realism, the subtleties and the expressiveness.
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, obviously VSL CFX isn't suited for jazz than other proper piano nice playing!
I just thought VSL would shine when it comes to classical music.

Anyway, VSL updated CFX to v1.0.582. Paul said that he found the great solution for some issues. It seems VSL solve the issue of sustain pedal chopping samples. They also added per-note tuning parameters to Edit view, and improved release samples/half-pedal sound behaviour, and CPU usage.

I applaud their efforts for feedback 

Here are download & ChangeLog links.
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/MyDownloads/Software_Installers
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/MyDownloads/Software_Manuals


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## Francis Bourre (May 16, 2018)

good said:


> Yeah, obviously VSL CFX isn't suited for jazz than other proper piano nice playing!
> I just thought VSL would shine when it comes to classical music.



Thanks for the kind words.
I got hard time to find a classical midifile that soundcloud authorize me publish, but I found one.





And yes, I appreciate their efforts as well, you're right to mention them. I just wanted to highlight a simple fact, I don't share the common enthusiasm shown in this thread, and VSL synchron piano won't be my goto piano, in any genre. Matter of taste and opinion as I said before.


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## SGordB (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Ok, to be more efficient, I should illustrate what I'm talking about.
> This is one of the virtual piano I'm using. I recorded some notes from the low to the high to compare the realism, the subtleties and the expressiveness.
> 
> 
> ...



Nice playing - and the phat, smoky allure of your preferred piano (which VI is it?) is obvious. But is it possible you're shortchanging the CFX's potential? I'm hearing what sounds like a lot of room mic and/or reverb when the up-close jazz style calls for mostly or entirely unadorned close mic. I wasn't hearing that in the demos VSL posted, but it did come across a few times during Paul's walkthrough.


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## Francis Bourre (May 16, 2018)

SGordB said:


> Nice playing - and the phat, smoky allure of your preferred piano (which VI is it?) is obvious. But is it possible you're shortchanging the CFX's potential? I'm hearing what sounds like a lot of room mic and/or reverb when the up-close jazz style calls for mostly or entirely unadorned close mic. I wasn't hearing that in the demos VSL posted, but it did come across a few times during Paul's walkthrough.



Thank you. 

About VSL, I took the player perspective, removed the reverb, switched off the room mic, and kept the closed one.
I raised a bit the closed one and opened the main one as 'good' suggested in his previous post. I agree with you, it's still wet and lacks of body and precision. It's obvious when you don't use the sustain pedal, play with dynamics and introduce silences in your performance. That's what I did on the jazz excerpt.

About the piano I'm using for this comparison:
My main piano sound is an Ivory American Concert D, (this is my favorite, but I use other ones) plus the Spitfire HZ piano, just for the harmonics to get kinda overtones. This is one of my tricks. I use the noises of the Steinway Imperfect Samples (in rarely mode). And I mix the whole thing with Spitfire Olafur Felt in the background (just the raw sound, not the rev channel) to add rounded colors in the low and some shininess in the high.


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## al_net77 (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> And yes, I appreciate their efforts as well, you're right to mention them. I just wanted to highlight a simple fact, I don't share the common enthusiasm shown in this thread, and VSL synchron piano won't be my goto piano, in any genre. Matter of taste and opinion as I said before.



Funny, I prefer CFX in this excerpt


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## SGordB (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Thank you.
> 
> About VSL, I took the player perspective, removed the reverb, switched off the room mic, and kept the closed one.
> I raised a bit the closed one and opened the main one as 'good' suggested in his previous post. I agree with you, it's still wet and lacks of body and precision. It's obvious when you don't use the sustain pedal, play with dynamics and introduce silences in your performance. That's what I did on the jazz excerpt.
> ...



Thanks for the detailed reply. What happens when you cut the main mic on the VSL CFX? 

Just out of curiosity, have you tried Piano in Blue? I don't own it, but it's the closest thing I've heard, in demos, to that woody, up-close-and-personal jazz tone I love (I actually come closest to it with Garritan's CFX Lite). I've been held back, in part, because PiB doesn't support half-pedalling.


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## al_net77 (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Interesting. The dryness is flattering less your ears maybe?  Just an intuition for now, maybe I'm wrong. You can't hear the room on mine, so... Tomorrow, if I got time I will make a new export with a hall reverb.



It's not the dryness, in the past I used to layer some pianos to get a more realistic sound, but more I listen to layered pianos, more I like the non-layered ones. I got the best results with American D over VGP, but IMHO this CFX is more ... real. Personal opinion, obviously 
Listening again, maybe the layer that is "less real" in your example is the Felt piano, is quite distracting.


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## Francis Bourre (May 16, 2018)

SGordB said:


> Thanks for the detailed reply. What happens when you cut the main mic on the VSL CFX?
> 
> Just out of curiosity, have you tried Piano in Blue? I don't own it, but it's the closest thing I've heard, in demos, to that woody, up-close-and-personal jazz tone I love (I actually come closest to it with Garritan's CFX Lite). I've been held back, in part, because PiB doesn't support half-pedalling.



Yeah, when it was released I used it a lot. I preferred it to the galaxy steinway. 
I will make a mp3 without the main mic tomorrow.


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## Francis Bourre (May 16, 2018)

al_net77 said:


> It's not the dryness, in the past I used to layer some pianos to get a more realistic sound, but more I listen to layered pianos, more I like the non-layered ones. I got the best results with American D over VGP, but IMHO this CFX is more ... real. Personal opinion, obviously
> Listening again, maybe the layer that is "less real" in your example is the Felt piano, is quite distracting.



Ok, I got the point.  And sorry, I removed my comment before you posted yours to not hijack the topic.
Maybe, we should make a new thread to talk about virtual pianos in general...


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## CGR (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Ok, to be more efficient, I should illustrate what I'm talking about.
> This is one of the virtual piano I'm using. I recorded some notes from the low to the high to compare the realism, the subtleties and the expressiveness.
> 
> 
> ...



I can hear the appeal of the Ivory American Concert Grand in this type of playing (and it feels great whenever I use it) but compared to the VSL CFX, it sounds too processed and boxy to my ears, even taking into account the Dry Ivory sound vs the VSL Room ambience. The VSL CFX resonates more naturally - I feel I'm hearing a real piano in a real (large) space as opposed to a smooth digital piano. I would like to hear a modified mic setting of the VSL, to have less of the hall and more of the piano in the tone (the sound reminded me of when I was a teenager and would borrow the keys to the gym at school and play the grand piano they had at the side of the stage).


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## CGR (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> I got hard time to find a classical midifile that soundcloud authorize me publish, but I found one.
> 
> 
> ...



Is the 'My Piano' Ivory ACD example here layered with the other pianos you mentioned earlier? I'm hearing some odd phasing going on I don't recall from when I've used the Ivory ACD. Prefer VSL CFX in this example also - much more convincing acoustic piano tone to my ears.


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## good (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> I got hard time to find a classical midifile that soundcloud authorize me publish, but I found one.
> 
> 
> ...




Ivory ACD is my another go-to piano. This VI goes well with any genre. When it comes to tone, it can perform better than VSL in specific song.
But in this excerpt, I would like to raise my hand on VSL. Of course, ACD is very, very good even if not layered. It may be a matter of taste as you say, but VSL's classical compatibility is now a top tier in terms of resonance and dynamics. I think it would be better to make some setting modifications as others said.

BTW your VI layering is very interesting. It certainly seems to be closer to realism by doing that. I would like to appoint you as the artisan of piano VI


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## Lee Blaske (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> So from my own experience and needs, I was disappointed, because the sound is too thin for my use, and not only in the high. It lacks of body as well. It's too clean, I can't feel the instrument under my fingers, so I can't believe I'm playing piano, and without wanting to be rude with the product, I would say it sounds a bit dead.



Try dialing down the MIDI sensitivity a bit, and also experiment with the EQ within the plug-in. And, tweak the resonance. I was amazed at how much I was able to warm it up. I also prefer an external reverb to the built-in one. If, along with your controller, you're engaging the top dynamic samples too much, it is going to sound bright (and thin). I don't know how it works, but the entire instrument seems to take to the built-in EQ very well. Cut the highs, and boost the low mids. Also, are you using a continuously variable sustain pedal? I think this instrument really needs it to take advantage of all the pedal programming.


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## Lee Blaske (May 16, 2018)

Francis Bourre said:


> Ok, to be more efficient, I should illustrate what I'm talking about.
> This is one of the virtual piano I'm using. I recorded some notes from the low to the high to compare the realism, the subtleties and the expressiveness.



I'm really coming to the conclusion that applying the same MIDI file to different plug-ins isn't fair. The one you actually record it on first has a distinct advantage, because you are actually playing that one. I know I play differently depending on exactly what's under my fingers.


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## Vadium (May 17, 2018)

General question for me in SY_CFX - why notes (especially in hi range) sounds like a double events, is it a hammer ricochet? listen same part played by sy (only close mic used) and garritan

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/one-or-double-notes-first-sy-and-second-garritan-one-note-mp3.13455/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/one-or-double-notes-first-sy-and-second-garritan-mp3.13456/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## good (May 26, 2018)

I have a standard version now, but I'm thinking about buying a full version before intro-offer expires.

Is the full version worth it?

I look forward to any advice of person who uses the full version.


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## composingkeys (May 26, 2018)

Hi Good,

I find the full library a lot of fun for additional options in the sound. With the runtime delay on the microphones you can get a more animated/depth from the soundstage or you can turn them off for a more solid feel. The close mic 2 from Full Library also is great to use either with the close mic 1 from standard library or by itself.


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## Vadium (May 26, 2018)

good said:


> I look forward to any advice


Hi good,
you can listen a comparison of individual microphones here https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t48770-Close-mics-A-B-comparaison#post271936

You can load these files onto DAW tracks and try different combinations
so, for me Close2 sounds better than Close1
Also good sound if you mix Close1 and Close2 together.
Room mix mic is over-wet and not useful for me - I has deleted it from ssd


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## good (May 26, 2018)

Vadium said:


> Hi good,
> you can listen a comparison of individual microphones here https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t48770-Close-mics-A-B-comparaison#post271936
> 
> You can load these files onto DAW tracks and try different combinations
> ...



oh, I have seen that post before, but I didn't know how to use properly those files so I listened to individual file.

After confirming your reply, I listened to the mix of those demos at my DAW and it was very interesting.
Mix of Close1 and Close2 certainly had more 'presence' than before. High and Surround mics show a deeper sense of space.

For me, High and Surround are not essential(it's good, of course) but the mix of close 1 and close 2 is a very attractive option. Mid 2 mic seems a little more spatial than mid 1 mic.

BTW I also listened to your one note playing of SY_CFX, and I thought it's because of round robin but on second thought, it's not easy to see double events in the round robin itself.
Is there a problem with the sampling? It may be fast to contact the VSL community.



composingkeys said:


> The close mic 2 from Full Library also is great to use either with the close mic 1 from standard library or by itself.



Yeah! close1 is real enough, but mix with close2 is absolutely better.


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## star.keys (Jun 2, 2018)

Is anyone using Synchron Piano with Doepfer LMK4+ and in that case, would you mind sharing what settings are working for you (both on the LMK4+ and Synchron software)? For me I'm either getting the tone very mellow (velocity tab 2) or very bright with reduced dynamic range (velocity tab 1) when I keep global MIDI sensitivity too around 28


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## keepitsimple (Jun 6, 2018)

Received my Vienna Key today and finally sat down and played my standard version.

I have to say that my impressions are mixed at the moment mainly due to my personal tastes and not in fault of the piano itself.

If i would describe this piano in 3 words, it would be: Tangy, organic, responsive.

- As i expected, Close Mic 1 really brings out that sharp close-to-the-strings sound which i'm not a fan of. If this was another library, i would probably set it aside to join the list of regretted blind purchases but i have to say that this piano is too enjoyable to play to do that.

- I expected the bass to have more power and "attack". Compared to Garritan CFX, it's too buttery.

- Release samples are the best i've heard so far. They bring realism and authenticity to this piano in a way no other piano library has done before.

That's it. Other than that, i'm really liking this piano. Close Mic 2 in the Full library might be what i need but for now i'm gonna experiment more with the mics i have.


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## keepitsimple (Jun 12, 2018)

I have to say i'm loving this piano. 

The release samples are what make it a step ahead of other libraries. I never enjoyed playing soft lyrical melodies as much as i enjoy doing it on this piano and i think that's due largely to those release samples.

After experimenting for couple days, i decided not to touch the velocity sensitivity anymore. Setting it to negative values makes the bass buttery and it loses definition, which is a big NO for me. Leaving it at 0 works best for me.

Here's a little lively short jam i did to test how the bass reacts to the type of music i play: https://instaud.io/2jdx


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## CGR (Jun 13, 2018)

keepitsimple said:


> I have to say i'm loving this piano.
> 
> The release samples are what make it a step ahead of other libraries. I never enjoyed playing soft lyrical melodies as much as i enjoy doing it on this piano and i think that's due largely to those release samples.
> 
> ...


Wow - this piano has 'bite'! Good to hear it in something other than a classical setting. Nice chops too!


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## SGordB (Jun 13, 2018)

Agree with CGR. It delivers the crunchy goodness. Close Mic 1, right?


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## keepitsimple (Jun 13, 2018)

SGordB said:


> Agree with CGR. It delivers the crunchy goodness. Close Mic 1, right?


Yes mostly. It's "Player room mix" preset + a touch of the Close 2 mic (volume slider at -10.9). Too much of the close 2 mic can cause clipping no matter how much i temper down the other mics. It's very "fatty" that close 2 mic.


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## C-Wave (Jun 13, 2018)

Update 1.0750 released today.


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## good (Jun 13, 2018)

C-Wave said:


> Update 1.0750 released today.



Thank you for the information.
I checked their change log and it said,

• Added: "Release Extension" algorithm and parameters (EDIT View)
• Added: "Release Sample level" parameter (EDIT View)
• Fixed: Folder selection bug in library installer
• Fixed: Occasional crashes on plug-in insert

Although I have not yet adjusted these parameters, it is apparent that they have given feedback on the Release issue. Great.


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## ptram (Sep 5, 2018)

If I understand correctly, the VSL Synchron Yamaha CFX has been conceived under a different perspective, compared to the past sampled pianos. Sampled pianos where conceived along a linear direction with the player/listener, who 'observed' the piano. With VSL's new library, the piano sits in the same space as the player/listener, inside the same bubble.

I find it a great concept. The only shame is that, after listening to the variuos demos from VSL and the users, and trying the available samples of separate microphones, I can't like the original instrument so carefully captured. The resulting library has a great presence and dynamic range, on a higher level than any other sample piano I've heard up to now. But in the ongoing quarrel between steinwites and yamahites, I'm decidedly on the opposite front than this unidimensional, unnuanced instrument.

I await with great expectations that Steinway that, judging from the famous piano comparison with Stefan Mendl, is one of the best sounding ever made.

Paolo


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