# Creating mood vs mimicking the action



## wonshu (Nov 29, 2007)

I'd like to start another discussion that is bothering me the past couple of weeks:

I frequently run into the difficulty between the two ways of scoring: creating the mood or mimicking the action.

I guess the answer again lies in between the two.

But for you guys that work in Hollywood:

Do you also have to deal with the problem that directors always want to "comment on a tiny little aspect" that's happening at the moment resulting in a score that sounds jagged a lot of times.

The directors here in Germany often have no concept of the music they want but want said music to create things that failed to show in the picture. At the same time, they know, that if they have to use music to tell the story, they failed in creating a film as a whole, resulting in a very weird music relationship, where they know they need it and it helps, but under no circumstance should it overpower in any way.

Hmm.... I'm a bit confused at the moment writing about this, sorry I can't be clearer, but maybe from the collective experience and solutions I can get some different perspective on things.

Best
Hans


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## JohnG (Nov 29, 2007)

My vote is: mood first, action second (except for chase and fight scenes)

This is a great question, for a bunch of reasons. First, many of us are drawn to film music that is powerful but distinctly "music" -- not underscore-sounding. In other words, when I think of The Godfather or The Mission or Harry Potter or Out of Africa or even Road to Perdition, I think of the main tunes. I believe this is even more true of many among the current generation of directors and producers (and editors, who often pick the temp music) think of songs -- often with lyrics -- when they think of music at all. So, in other words, this is mood-setting music, music that tells you the era, the sophistication (or lack thereof) or the ethnicity, or the scale or -- basically -- the vibe of what you are seeing and are about to see.

Just as important, the music often tells you something that's NOT on the screen -- that a stern-looking character is feeling strong love or affection for a character but hasn't ever said so. In that regard, the filmmaker hasn't failed -- it's just part of the whole movie that the only thing telling you that particular information is the music.

Consequently, directors and editors these days seem to me to temp more and more with songs, or with music (like much of Hans Zimmer's) that's song-like, in that there's a single, tonal tune and an accompaniment. Since most of the movies I've done have been temped (sometimes practically wall to wall), it's not too hard to figure out how far the director thinks he wants to go. On the other hand, it's sometimes a good idea to show an alternative to him as long as you're willing to throw it out if he doesn't like it.

So, specifically, I think the current vogue is to go more for the mood for most scenes and ignore to some extent the physical activities (walking, stopping and starting, pauses, raised eyebrows or other facial expressions that are significant, and so on). The exceptions for me remains fight or chase scenes in which I still hit or change the music, however subtly-- sometimes just a flute entering on a high note, sometimes a huge crushing percussion hit -- for every major event. 

Even if you are writing "past" the scene and going more for mood (not underlining every cut or change in tone), you have to cope with major points of emphasis and even the editing. 

Sometimes, if the acting and the film are already doing whatever needs doing, you don't need to over-do the underlining of plot points or even the mood that much, of course, but very often the music communicates the sincerity of the actors (or lack of sincerity) or the overall tone, from harsh to gentle, so in that respect I guess it's mood only but of course that can shift in the middle of the scene.


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## aeneas (Nov 29, 2007)

wonshu @ Thu 29 Nov said:


> The directors here in Germany often have no concept of the music they want but want said music to create things that failed to show in the picture.


Thankfully they all want that!! 8) 



> At the same time, they know, that if they have to use music to tell the story, they failed in creating a film as a whole


No they did not failed. Film, like opera, is a syncretic art. So the director cannot create the film "as a whole" on their own. They need screenwriters, producers, make-up artists, costume designers, cameramans, actors, composers, and lots and lots of other skilled people with various talents. Music has a privileged place in this scheme, because, for unidentified reasons, it is able to tell the story, it is able to put emphasis on certain details that otherwise would remain hidden, it is able to hide details that otherwise would be embarrassing, it is able to provide twists of meaning that otherwise the image alone won't be able to convey, etc.

Now, to answer your title-question: ALWAYS, even against your most basic taste, knowledge, and personal beliefs, ALWAYS strive to do whatever the director wants. Period. IMO, filmmusic is not about music. It is not even about the film (i.e. 'your' understanding of the film). Filmmusic is, or should be, ALWAYS: whatever the director wants it to be. Mood, mimicking the action, telling the story, working against the story, mickeymousing, roaring like a titan's rage, chirping softly in the backstage, blowing all the trumpets for half a second, holding a long note on violas, etc. etc. etc. ...

This is the paradox: you may be the new Beethoven, but you can NEVER know better than your non-musically-trained director. You are only supposed to humbly follow him and serve him at your best possible. Scoring a film is not making music. Scoring is serving the director, helping him do what he is not able to do alone. He is the Artist. You are only a servant who prepares his 'colors', but he is the actual 'painter'. And you are supposed to do everything according to his taste, not to yours. Sometimes it may appear to you that the director doesn't know what they want, or that you know better than them what is best for one scene or another. That is an illusion that can only work against you. I know, directors are not always very articulate. But if you can't please them, that is never their fault, it's always yours: you are supposed to understand behind words. After all, you are a *composer*, right? Then, be a smart one so you become a *scorer*.

If you don't have ABSOLUTE trust in your director's artistic vision, then you can hardly score for film.

my two pence


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## Conor (Nov 30, 2007)

Personally I'd prefer to err on the side of creating a mood, for a couple of reasons:

1) As a moviegoer I often notice spots where the music seems to go too far towards mimicking the action. Not necessarily "Mickey-mousing," maybe just emphasizing something that didn't really need it, or making an emotional moment seem cheesy. Rarely do I have the opposite reaction. (Personal preference of course.)

2) If you create a good "mood" track and the director doesn't want to use it, you at least have something nice for your portfolio. :mrgreen:

--Conor


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## wonshu (Nov 30, 2007)

CobraTrumpet @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> 2) If you create a good "mood" track and the director doesn't want to use it, you at least have something nice for your portfolio. :mrgreen:



Very good point.

Or for the next project...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 30, 2007)

Aeneas,

With all due respect, you have a highly idealistic vision of directors. I have worked with a few dozen by now, and I guarantee you that they do not all share the same level of understanding of how music works in the context of a film or tv series. There are times when *you* have to use your own judgement. More often than not, the director will be very happy that you did.


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## VonRichter (Nov 30, 2007)

wonshu @ Thu Nov 29 said:


> I frequently run into the difficulty between the two ways of scoring: creating the mood or mimicking the action.
> 
> I guess the answer again lies in between the two.



There are not "two ways of scoring". There are infinite ways. Including non-scoring.

A film can be effective with all sorts of sound choices. It really depends.

Stop whining and start working. :wink:


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## wonshu (Nov 30, 2007)

Uhum.... I am working...

:roll:

I think the people that worked with directors a lot understand what I'm talking about...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 30, 2007)

Von Richter,

Wonshu did not ask for advice about how to make a film effective. He's not a director. He's a composer, so he asked a specific question related to scoring, not whether or not to score a scene, for eg. Your winking smiley does little to deflect my impression that your post is condescending.


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## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 30, 2007)

Von Richter, the question of playing the mood or mickey mousing the scene is a very relevant issue for film composers and worth debating.

Your post is certainly not helpful...


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## Thonex (Nov 30, 2007)

wonshu @ Thu Nov 29 said:


> But for you guys that work in Hollywood:
> 
> Do you also have to deal with the problem that directors always want to "comment on a tiny little aspect" that's happening at the moment resulting in a score that sounds jagged a lot of times.



If a director wants you to "hit" everything in a scence... then it will start to sound cartoony. Definitely over the top. But that may be a desired effect. It's up to you... the expert at music and how it relates to picture to figure out how much to hit things in a scene (as opposed to jest setting the mood).

The only times I've had directors try to tell me to hit everything, I told them that I would do what they wanted, but I cautioned them that it may sound "cartoony". In then end I usually just use my best judgment and they are happy. 

I think it's important to realize that if you hit just a few "key" spots, that it will seem like you are actually hitting more than you are and the director's wishes will probably be fulfilled. Also, you don't necessarily have to "hit" something to make it stand out. You can omit things and it can be just as effective. Or just change direction. The trick is doing all this so it sounds cohesive and doesn't distract the viewer from the scene... all the while adding to the drama.

My 2 Hollywood cents.

T


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 1, 2007)

In my experience it's more of an issue *not* hitting things you don't want to hit - jump cuts, etc. While I'd never want to go back to the pre-digital days (I finished Berklee in 1981, MIDI was 1983), there was something to be said for starting with a detailed cue sheet listing everything that happens in scene - insignificant cuts and all - and looking up everything in a click book. You'd have everything plotted on the score paper next to an x for every beat.

Of course it was tedious and everything went much slower, and it wasn't as much fun since you didn't hear anything until it was played. But it did make some things easier.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 1, 2007)

Also, leave room for the sound fx hits. In my experience, the big door hits will take the place of your well balanced tutti grand case/snare/anvil/bass co legno every time. I actually regularly space my 'hits' a bit before or after what I know will be the sound designer's time in the spotlight.


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## VonRichter (Dec 1, 2007)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> Von Richter,
> 
> Your winking smiley does little to deflect my impression that your post is condescending.



I'm happy to report that it's 100% misunderstanding. Clearly the smiley ( :wink: ) is a valuable clue as to how seriously to take that (thought-it-was)obvious jest. A smiley is about as clear as it gets on forums short of a literal "here comes a joke" tag. Especially the "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" smiley, my personal favorite. Usually a smiley is enough, I didn't realize a detailed literal explanation of the joking would be required. Why the heck would I randomly say to Wonshu "stop whining and start working" unless I was joking?

You might consider re-reading it imagining a goofy grin on my face, not some unfathomable non-sequitor condescension that would never come from me. That's like 180 from my personality. It's way, way off base!

These things don't translate online very well sometimes. The faux shop-foreman or "hard boiled" father figure. You see, "Stop whining and get back to work!"

In other words, Wonshu's shop foreman, i.e. a caricature.

I would have no reason to say that seriously to Wonshu. I've enjoyed his threads very much. The joke relates to how many of the threads there have been. It was warm-hearted, towards Wonshu.

The jokers life on internet forums is a difficult one, fraught with peril!

Cheers,
-VR

PS
I have no idea why you think I'm trying to give Wonshu film directing advice... totally lost me there. :?:


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## VonRichter (Dec 1, 2007)

Patrick de Caumette @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> Von Richter, the question of playing the mood or mickey mousing the scene is a very relevant issue for film composers and worth debating..



That's precisely the discussion. Again, this is rarely an "either-or" proposition. Rarely are films at one extreme or the other. There can be and are infinite gradations in between, from scene to scene, film to film.

After all, Wonshu's opening post read:

"I frequently run into the difficulty between the two ways of scoring: creating the mood or mimicking the action.
I guess the answer again lies in between the two. "

:wink:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 1, 2007)

I still find you quite condescending, smiley or no smiley.


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## aeneas (Dec 1, 2007)

I think that, when not overdoing it, some types of musical hits (not very percussive) can help keeping up a sense of general speed in an action scene. In a way it can be considered in the same way we are considering moods - only that it's a mood conveying a sense of speed, of "tempo"... It's like setting up a musical pace that supports the pace of the action. And the hits shouldn't necessarily be always "on the beat" - they can 'syncopate' the action, in a sort of rhythmic counterpoint. Hope it makes sense.

I still believe that, ultimately, it is to not think too much, but to just come up with something that you think the director 'might' like. And directors are different. Even the same director is different from one day to another... You were right Wonshu - tough job! What's important is to constantly try to keep your director happy so that they might call you again on their next gig.


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## choc0thrax (Dec 1, 2007)

mducharme @ Sat Dec 01 said:


> I'm not a Hollywood composer or anything, but IMO mimicking the action is very useful for scoring comedies..



Maybe if it's for a film about Wile E Coyote trying to kill Road Runner.


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## mducharme (Dec 1, 2007)

choc0thrax @ Sat Dec 01 said:


> mducharme @ Sat Dec 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a Hollywood composer or anything, but IMO mimicking the action is very useful for scoring comedies..
> ...



That's one very extreme use of mimicking the action..

I was thinking more along the lines the various spy-spoof movies I've seen.. largely those scores take things dramatically very seriously, but over-the-top so in that they give hits to events that do not really deserve it, or more overblown, or they give hits "dead on" where in more serious fare they would be delayed or otherwise offset... also the idea of sudden musical changes from scene to scene taking place exactly on the scene change every scene change is more of an old-fashioned scoring means too so these days I think it gives a comedic feel.. (though of course regular dramatic movies still do that quite a bit, I think they used to do it a lot more often) I also would lump that type of scoring into mimicking the action.


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## bryla (Dec 1, 2007)

aeneas @ Thu Nov 29 said:


> After all, you are a *composer*, right? Then, be a smart one so you become a *scorer*.



ehm... there's no such word as a scorer.... ?


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## aeneas (Dec 2, 2007)

Right, I meant a filmscorer. (and not a football scorer o )

But then again, no such word as a filmscorer... :? 

:mrgreen:


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## wonshu (Dec 2, 2007)

Leaving things out to comment is exactly the kind of advice and input I was looking for. Thanks.

Currently I'm working on a good documentary on a really delicate social phenomenon that "needs something" but I'm not allowed to do music, not do too much, there's a lot of voice over obviously.

Anyone ran into this situation? How did you solve it?

It's the situation where musical phrases don't work, but pads or drones won't work either becaues they turn it into much more scary than what it's supposed to be.

Anyone?

I have some ideas already using delayed percussive sounds running through an impulse response of a delayed epiano.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 2, 2007)

Pads can work really well, Hans. They don't have to be scary if you choose the ones that sound 'new age-y'. By that I mean that they are major or suspended-sounding. There's a boat-load in Atmosphere and Zebra that can do the trick. That and a little piano, just a few notes here and there, with lots of reverb, not a melody. In my experience, I've found that I just have to filter out some of the content of the pad so that it doesn't get in the way of the dialogue. It seems that what really counts is what you start off doing in the first 5 minutes. That sets the tone for the whole movie, so if there's minimal music at the start under dialogue, the viewer will not be surprised if there's some throughout the rest.


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## wonshu (Dec 2, 2007)

Your suggestions were my first impulse as well, when we talked about the film a couple of weeks ago. And even the director said that that would be interesting, but now, that she's finished the film she feels it needs to be much more abstract.

The theme of the documentary is Amok and I was told to stay away from music and "nice" things...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 2, 2007)

What is Amok?


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## wonshu (Dec 2, 2007)

Uhm... amok, as in running amok.

What leads to school shootings, etc...

That's what the documentary is about.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 2, 2007)

Oh. Yeah. That's not so easy at all. Something like slow jazz, ECM-style maybe, contrabass (bowed), brushes, a few sparse piano chords?


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## wonshu (Dec 2, 2007)

I'd love to...

I'm not allowed to create music though.

All I can do is approximate an "Einstürzende Neubauten" soundtrack... except nowhere near as dense.

And on this one I agree with the director. We don't want to let the diary readings of one of those killers become something where we start feeling for him.

It's tricky. I hope I can come up with something.

We'll see.

BTW: I asked the original question of the thread not about this film but about the TV/movie stuff I'm working on at the moment as well, so more dramatic films as opposed to the documentary.


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## aeneas (Dec 2, 2007)

wonshu @ Sun 02 Dec said:


> she feels it needs to be much more abstract.


Overgeneralizing, I find that, in music, pitches (melodies) are the most 'concrete' events, chords (harmonic sequences) are the most 'psycho-emotional' events, and percussive (unpitched) rhythms are the most 'abstract' events. Try some neutral non-obtrusive percussions in some non-square meter (7/8, 5/4, etc.) and make it sound irregular while keeping its (non-square) metric pulse.


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## wonshu (Dec 2, 2007)

Yes, as I said, I ran a knock-woody sound through a delay and used that as an impulse response running some glass-hits that I recorded through it.

That seems to be something she feels comfortable with...

The odd meter idea is something I will have to include, good one! Although sometimes when they (the "others", hehehe) don't understand a rhythm they feel uneasy too and tell me: I don't understand this. D'oh...

Very tricky... but I think I cracked it with the wood-sounding delay thingy, I'll post back when she gets here tomorrow.

Thanks for the input!

Best
Hans


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## RiffWraith (Dec 7, 2007)

(As poked at breifly earlier):

*What does the temp score do?*

Couple of things you should know, and I am basing this on experience not as a composer, but working at a post facility with music editors, picture editors, and occasionally directors.

1) The temp score is there for a reason. If you think the reason is _simply and only _ to give the composer a 'basic and general outline' - you are wrong.

2a) If you think composers have not been fired for not following the temp score close enough - you are wrong (no names here)

2b) If you think you will be able to get away with being creative and veering away from the temp score, while your name isn't Howard, Shore, Williams, Horner, Zimmer, etc.... - you are wrong. And if it is, then only sometimes. Think big ape movie here.

3) If you think the temp score is not the hear-all end-all handed down from God himself, you are wrong.

4) If you think the director will definitely favor your score over the temp - you are wrong much of the time.

5) if you think that many composers do little more than simply rewrite the temp score - you are correct (no film names here)

Great discussion, this thread, but realize that much of the time it's not up to you.

Cheers.


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## JohnG (Dec 7, 2007)

RiffWraith @ 7th December 2007 said:


> (As poked at breifly earlier)"
> 
> *What does the temp score do?*
> If you think the temp score is not the hear-all end-all handed down from God himself, you are wrong.



Sad, but true. It's like their mom wrote it or something.


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## wonshu (Dec 7, 2007)

I truly wish I would get temp music. I don't. I have to go out on a limb on every project.

The last two temp music I got for a crime show was a track featuring Jan Garbarek (who I respect, but it just doesn't work on a tv-series crime show) and the Johnny Cash version of Hurt...

Who, in their right mind, puts something like that in there and expects nobodies like myself to fill that gap. OK, the Garbarek thingy can sort of be faked. But if you want Johnny Cash, there's no way around it but to pay up.

This is where the business in Hollywood is much more professional and streamlined and thus much easier to navigate through than here. The composer is more of a service person (which I'm fine with !!!!) whereas here we have to, I don't know... guess a lot of the times.


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## wonshu (Dec 12, 2007)

@kid

good points.

Guess that is in fact my own insecurity showing.

I tend to forget that I'm working in an artistic field, thanks for reminding me.


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## kid-surf (Dec 13, 2007)

I'm fairly opinionated if you've not noticed. :D Don't mind me I'm just in one of those moods considering the Strike over here. 


Just... I'm passionate about this stuff. May not be what everyone believes but it's what I believe. But yeah, no prob. I make it a priority to remind myself every day.

Anyway, yeah I think we all must fight those insecurities. Otherwise we're all simply holding back what we COULD/MIGHT do. I don't feel that's the best creative approach (For our society too, not just in terms of self fulfillment - which is also important.)

Art can make money when it's good. People tend to forget that... especially if they're wearing a SUIT. 

But why appease "the suits"? They'd be selling (used) cars if not for riding the creatives' coattails.  None of us would be playing it safe if not for them. Instead we'd be left with a more honest and sincere creative medium. 


KID


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## dlbest (Dec 13, 2007)

Hi folks - this is my first official post - so excuse the length - and be gentle with me...!

Lots of great thoughts on a multitude of difficult subjects in this thread - just wanted to jump in and add my 2¢. Concerning temp scores - there has been so much written on the subject, one can hardly hope to add anything new. But it was refreshing to read RiffW's honest take on the issue - and in fact it precisely matches my own experience, both in film as a relatively new composer, as well as in theater as an old and wisened arranger (you'll have to make a mental leap there).

For better or for worse, film is a director's medium - everyone and I mean everyone who works on a film is ultimately there to support the director's vision (assuming they're good enough to have one). As many have pointed out, the reality is that the director doesn't always know enough about music to be able to discuss what it is they would like to hear - but I assure you that most will become suddenly incredibly articulate about music the moment you play them something they DON'T want to hear. Yes Wonshu - we are service people!

So how does one navigate such murky waters. For me, it's about listening to everything the director says - not just about the music, but about the film in general. What is the director concerned about? What story is he trying to tell - and how is he trying to tell it? Believe me, if the director could write the music himself, he would (sorry Kid-surf, but you know it's true) - so it's the composer's job to figure out what kind of music he would write. You've got to put yourself in his shoes - empathize. Forget about whether you like the guy - or respect him - or even like the film. While you're writing that score, that film has to be as important to you as it is to the director - or you're lost.

For me, the temp score is just that - it's the best score the director can "write" on his own. Yes, it can be a real pain to try to compose around someone else's work - but it can also be a great road map. What's the tempo of this scene? How dense should the music be? Listen to the temp - the answer is probably at least partly there. And as far as hitting cues goes (i.e. mimicking the action), you have to understand the limitations a temp score places on the picture (or music) editor who has dropped the temp music into the film - they can only do so much in terms of lining up hits - most hits happen by happy (or unhappy) accident. It's up to the composer to have the taste (and possibly the restraint) to know what to hit and what not to hit - and when you do it right, the director thinks you're a genius - "it's so much more locked to the scene than the temp was!" - hey, that's what original music is all about! Until they move it all around in post, of course - but that's a subject for another thread!

Time and money constraints make the prospect of a lengthy musical exploration in collaboration with a director a pipe dream for all but a lucky few. Until you have that luxury, the temp score, along with the all-important spotting session (and whatever time you can get with the director on the phone, over a beer, or in the hallway between editing suites), is your best friend.

Just re-read Kid-surf's posts - and I do agree in spirit with what you're saying. Personally, I think of the temp as the director's way of communicating with me the best he can - and if I can write some original, fresh music based on what he tried to say to me with his temp, I've done more than my job. I've definitely gone the route of ignoring the temp and going my own direction - sometimes you win the director over and sometimes you don't - and sometimes they're right - and sometimes they're wrong! But in the end, it's the director's movie - and every one you finish gives you a chance to hone your craft and try to write something else worth hearing.

Kid-surf, I admire your courage to fight for your music - but honestly I've lost more of those fights than I've won (in both theater and film) - so I whenever I can take a director's idea and do it better than they would have imagined (or in extreme cases, save them from themselves), I consider that to be just as much of a "win" as if I had thought of it all myself.

Thanks for listening - flame away!

Doug


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Dec 14, 2007)

Super post. Nice way to introduce yourself, Doug! 8)


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## kid-surf (Dec 14, 2007)

> Believe me, if the director could write the music himself, he would (sorry Kid-surf, but you know it's true) - so it's the composer's job to figure out what kind of music he would write. You've got to put yourself in his shoes - empathize. Forget about whether you like the guy - or respect him - or even like the film. While you're writing that score, that film has to be as important to you as it is to the director - or you're lost.




No need to be sorry because I agree with you, and have done it. :D That's why I don't consider that music to be "my" music, my "voice" if you will. But...

...You'll have to excuse some of my comments because I'm not thinking like a composer at this point. I'm thinking in terms of what's best for the entire film. In which case the script being the most important aspect. (FWIW, I just finished writing a couple scripts and am aiming to put these films together when the strike ends. And in the meantime writing another.)

As it turns out I am aiming to be a director who writes their own music. Only reason is because I can write my own music, and I'd know 'exactly' what I'd want. :D 

So I wouldn't say I'm fighting for my music at this point. I'm fighting for the whole film (writer-director-composer). One step at a time. 

Likewise, I've lost more of those music battles than I've won. Personally, writing to temp doesn't do anything for me far as creative fulfillment. I need to "create" for better or worse, from zero. Same way I didn't have a "temp script" to base my scripts off of, no one does. That sort of creative experience is what I personally need. So I've begun to seek it out.


I'm not a blind idealist. I understand the function of the temp score from both sides. Yet, I personally feel that it's cheating and not conducive to an original film. I would be embarrassed, as a director, to use a temp score because I'd know I'm stealing a bit of the "voice" from someone else's film (knowing that the other director/composer team would know it if they saw my film). Maybe I'm a hardliner for creation and maybe that's why I don't fit into the composing world neat and nice. But if I get to direct one of my films I'm fighting tooth and nail for ORIGINAL music.  It's just what makes sense to my brain. After all, I'd rather create the film people are trying to rip off. :D 

1) Original Script
2) Original Directing
3) Original Music 

Nothing is truly original, but you know what mean. No training wheels. Point being, someone has to crate something new or we hit the wall of sameness.

I don't believe original music must be a convoluted exercise in frustration for both parties, that is, if the director is doing their job. Which includes, in my opinion, having a well established vision for the music as well. That aspect falls under pre-production. Often while writing the script - if the director writes. In any case, it's having a vision for the entire film. To me that seems intuitive. But I suppose not every director understands the power of original music. It can give your film an emotional backbone like no other film... I firmly believe that is the goal of film. 

True, that's not going to be the norm in film. Most scores will be temp'd in. Many directors probably don't consider the music in any specific way until the film is being edited. But I can try to do it my way. Which makes me very content.

So essentially, I agree with everything you said on a functional level. But at the same time explained that it's not for me. For me it doesn't make any sense to approach a film that way.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Doug! No flames... just discussion. :D


KID


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## dlbest (Dec 14, 2007)

Great response Kid - I definitely get where you're coming from. Yes, in a way I imagine a director who is also a composer might be a great combination - there's no question it would all be the director's vision - and more power to you as an artist if you can do it all.

Question, though - when you talk about a temp, do you mean when a director drops in music from soundtrack and library CDs - which then gets replaced by the composer later on? Or...are you thinking of a scenario where the director uses pre-recorded music to score the film - and *keeps* it there - a la Kubrick with 2001? I was referring to the former in my post - not the latter - that's a whole other kettle of fish.

I'm sure you know this Kid, but some folks may not - directors are under incredible pressure when they're editing - often if things aren't going well, the editing is where they fix the film, solve bad performances, etc. They have to answer to a lot of people - the producers (and their spouses, friends, children, pets), even the investors sometimes - and as we all know, it's really hard to watch a film without music - I mean, action and suspense scenes can be really painful without score. Plus, particularly in action scenes, some directors and editors like to have a tempo to cut to, in a music-video kind of way. So the temp can be really important to them - it helps them get their approvals etc.

The problem of course is when everyone - the director, the editor, the producers, the investors - fall in love with the temp - or at least get so used to it they can't imagine the film with any other music. Then you've got trouble. Really experienced directors have an open mind - they understand that a good composer is going to *help* their movie - so they're hoping what you deliver feels even better than what they temped in - and when it is, they're happy - and when it's not, it's their job to let you know.

The best scenario for a composer might be to get invited to start writing music before (or during) shooting - certainly before the editing starts - and maybe even mock-up some stuff for the director to cut to. On an action film I did a few months ago (my first - it was a big deal to me!), the director temped in a demo I sent him of an idea I had for a particular musical vibe (not scored to picture - I hadn't seen any footage yet) - I was flattered, but it was only partially successful the way he used it. So when I got to that scene, I went back and re-tooled the music so everything fit as it should - instant happiness - and it felt like a really effective collaboration. How great if we could work like that more often than not.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to checking out one of your films Kid - hopefully in the near future...!

Doug


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## mirrodin (Jan 27, 2008)

I have a question.. Creating the mood by composing a pad and phrases instead of an actual melody, or composing a full motif; which has certain advantages for say, a blockbuster action film?


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## poseur (Jan 29, 2008)

RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> (As poked at breifly earlier):
> 
> *What does the temp score do?*
> 1) The temp score is there for a reason. If you think the reason is _simply and only _ to give the composer a 'basic and general outline' - you are wrong.


hmmm.

if the temp-score is crappy,
contains no elements of arc nor "glue",
is only temp'ed as the director/editor/producer's
love its presence due primarily
to those cues' connection to their last fave film
(which coincidentally made a wackload of $$ for someone),
and/or doesn't work for me, then?
then:
if i don't find a way
to address such issues early-on,
that would count as my 1st major failure
as their creative collaborator.

it is NOT at the core of my job to
trick/entice/cajole/yes-man the director/producers
into desiring to hire me
for their "next" film;
unfortunately, i believe that it IS my job
to make every effort to increase the quality, flow, character & plot development,
emotional impact & etc of this film for all concerned,
and to help mark this film's voice qith
its own "unique" presentation
amongst the plethora of releases.



RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> 2a) If you think composers have not been fired for not following the temp score close enough - you are wrong (no names here)


a truth, there..... unfortunately.



RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> 2b) If you think you will be able to get away with being creative and veering away from the temp score, while your name isn't Howard, Shore, Williams, Horner, Zimmer, etc.... - you are wrong. And if it is, then only sometimes. Think big ape movie here.


ach;
yes, and no.
i continue to find my own ways to say..... errrm..... "no".
(for some reason, i seem to be working more than ever?¡?)
i wonder if the death-knell of
the pursuit of creative ideals in film-music
is always tolled most loudly by those
who make the least
efforts 
--- efforts either overt, or covert --- 
to avoid the funeral?
i mean no personal offense, there:
i'm simply wondering, and would include myself
as a similar (if, occasional) target for such criticism,
having rung that bell a few times, myself.....



RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> 3) If you think the temp score is not the hear-all end-all handed down from God himself, you are wrong.



sometimes being wrong can be soooooooooo right,
though, eh?..... 
.....when we're willing to "step up",
whether for a beating, or something otherwise more
fruitful.....



RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> 4) If you think the director will definitely favor your score over the temp - you are wrong much of the time.


your dip in absolutism here certainly helps me
to see your point.



RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> 5) if you think that many composers do little more than simply rewrite the temp score - you are correct (no film names here)


yes; i see & hear this, all too often:
even when the temp simply regurgitorily sucked.....



RiffWraith @ Fri Dec 07 said:


> Great discussion, this thread, but realize that much of the time it's not up to you.


true; 
but, i think there's always something
substantial that *is*
"up to you", though..... 
..... there are de facto creative
decisions that gotta be made on a moment-to-moment basis, the most key of which may be:
"do i have a creative viewpoint, here?, &, if so:
can i find an available door through which
i might best pursue it with _this_ picture,
_this_ specific group of people,
_this_ ass-wiper of a temp-score?"
choices.
root-choices:
life-choices:
any decision to be bold is always kinda..... rough, imo,
but..... someone's gotta do it, eh?
i hope so.
and pursue thusly.
d


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