# First trailer track here, feedback needed



## Lassi Tani (Sep 22, 2016)

Hi, made a trailer track, would need help in getting the mix right, and perhaps the structure too. First trailer track here, and haven't done much trailer music. Appreciate any feedback!


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## Batrawi (Sep 22, 2016)

These are the first things that caught my attention:

-percussion sounds monotonic..I don't hear any mids or high's.. It also sounds very familiar(Apocalypse soundiron?)

-I would remove the dropping synthy bass effect at the end. Your theme is overall organic so this effect sounds out of context (otherwise you need to add a rhythmic bass line starting at 01:10 for example)

-try to remove the choirs from the first phrase (0:00-0:20) or make it a one-note only instead of a 3-notes chord (too much for a start)

I highly recommend that you read the trailer tips posted recently by @Walid F. very useful and explains the trailer's structure/progression etc...

By the way I like the music


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 22, 2016)

Batrawi said:


> These are the first things that caught my attention:
> 
> -percussion sounds monotonic..I don't hear any mids or high's.. It also sounds very familiar(Apocalypse soundiron?)
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot!  Yeah it's Apocalypse. I'm using too much same drums, I'll fix that and other suggestions too. For the structure I listened to a few trailers, like Heart of Courage, and got the idea for choir and strings in the beginning. But, as you said, it's perhaps too much in the beginning.


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## NoamL (Sep 23, 2016)

Voice is too close for this genre. Push it back and give it more verb -



The piano, on the other hand, is getting swallowed up behind the orchestra, it needs to be brought to the foreground, made wetter, and perhaps more effected in a cool way?

You have the right structure (Act 1 atmosphere - Act 2 motion elements - Act 3 epic statement) that @Walid F. talked about in his tips. But you need more urgency especially in act 2 and 3. I think the continuing atmospheric ambiences and whole-note brass leads are fighting with the low strings that are trying to build that sense of urgency. The tempo might also be too slow, and it might just be that the pattern you've chosen for the low strings isn't building up the tension and urgency enough.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 23, 2016)

NoamL said:


> Voice is too close for this genre. Push it back and give it more verb -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks a lot Noam for the feedback! I gave it more verb, but I don't like too much wetness, when everything is flushed with long reverb, and it starts to be hard to distinguish different instruments from the track. I like more simple style, but I agree, I had too less reverb.

Very good point on the urgency. I'll see what I can do about it.

Here's the old version:



Here's the new version:





Batrawi said:


> -percussion sounds monotonic..I don't hear any mids or high's.. It also sounds very familiar(Apocalypse soundiron?)



I noticed in EQ, the percussion I used from APE didn't have much mids and highs, I tried to fix that in the new version.


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## thov72 (Sep 23, 2016)

hey hey sounds good!! Maybe work on the ending a bit.Great work, I like it.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 23, 2016)

thov72 said:


> hey hey sounds good!! Maybe work on the ending a bit.Great work, I like it.



Thanks a lot! Is the ending too abrupt?


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## thov72 (Sep 24, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> Thanks a lot! Is the ending too abrupt?


actually the first time I listened to it it seemed that way.
Second time... I wondered why I had written that.... ... so I thinks its all right.


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## Maestro1972 (Sep 24, 2016)

I think at 1:42 I would have dropped the drums (with the exception of the bass) and let the piano carry the rhythm. Then bring it all back at 1:59. I think the ending sounds thin. Sounds like a lot of unison brass instead of a full orchestral sound and just a bit lacking for what I was expecting/wanting. Just my opinion. Not my flavor of music but you did a wonderful job!


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 24, 2016)

thov72 said:


> actually the first time I listened to it it seemed that way.
> Second time... I wondered why I had written that.... ... so I thinks its all right.



Yeah it's strange, how music feels different on the second listen. Thanks 



Maestro1972 said:


> I think at 1:42 I would have dropped the drums (with the exception of the bass) and let the piano carry the rhythm. Then bring it all back at 1:59. I think the ending sounds thin. Sounds like a lot of unison brass instead of a full orchestral sound and just a bit lacking for what I was expecting/wanting. Just my opinion. Not my flavor of music but you did a wonderful job!



Thank you! I'll test dropping the drums. I read from somewhere that trailers should be simple, but I guess I had that in mind too much. The ending could have a full orchestral sound. I'll try to fix that.


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## nik (Sep 24, 2016)

I like your track, may i ask how u did the little Bass ending?is that just Pitchbend?
greets


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 25, 2016)

Updated the track:


The old one:




nik said:


> I like your track, may i ask how u did the little Bass ending?is that just Pitchbend?


Thanks nik! Yes you may ask, but my answer costs. :D Just kidding. For the bass drop I'm using ProjectBravo's downers. I can happily recommend ProjectAlpha and ProjectBravo. Otherwise, I would use an oscillator, make a frequency automation lane, make it start from e.g. 70Hz and drop to 30Hz. And then add effects on it.


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## nik (Sep 25, 2016)

Thanks nik! Yes you may ask, but my answer costs. :D Just kidding. For the bass drop I'm using ProjectBravo's downers. I can happily recommend ProjectAplha and ProjectBravo. Otherwise, I would use an oscillator, make a frequency automation lane, make it start from e.g. 70Hz and drop to 30Hz. And then add effects on it.[/QUOTE]

thanks man, thats a cool info, i will definetly use it my future tracks.


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## Batrawi (Sep 25, 2016)

Very good job! It has improved a lot compared to the older one


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 25, 2016)

Batrawi said:


> Very good job! It has improved a lot compared to the older one



Thank you very much! Happy to hear that there has been progress 



nik said:


> thanks man, thats a cool info, i will definetly use it my future tracks.



You're welcome! The possibilities are endless, when you start to fiddle with your own bass drops, and other elements used in trailers, hybrid, and electronic music. It's not rocket science, but takes time to learn. Fast way is of course buying sample libraries, but it's more interesting to design your own sound. That's what I'm starting to do more and more.


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## Vakhtang (Sep 25, 2016)

Hey,

IMO you should try waiting with the horns at :32, and let them slowly come in at :44 and 48 with that one note when that low bass hits and then they can continue the same feel into :52. Keep some more persistency. Maybe another instrument/sound can take the brass' role from :34?

Short thoughts:

3rd act could use some more intensity and drive, especially with the strings. Needs some low brass too. Perc could be a little more punchy and also more meaty in the mids. Make the general structure tighter with less deviations and more consistent building.

Check these for overall reference/ideas:



Spoiler












Cheers :D.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 25, 2016)

Vakhtang said:


> Hey,
> 
> IMO you should try waiting with the horns at :32, and let them slowly come in at :44 and 48 with that one note when that low bass hits and then they can continue the same feel into :52. Keep some more persistency. Maybe another instrument/sound can take the brass' role from :34?
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for the feedback! I added now more meat to the mids of the percussion. And added more intensity to the short strings. Would low brass work well as short stabs in the 3rd act? That way they would support the perc too in the 3rd act.


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## Waywyn (Sep 25, 2016)

Just some quick feedback. Nice theme, but percussions are really boring, you melodically do a lot to bring in variation on theme, adding instruments, changing patterns etc. ... but percussions sounds like it is just a 4 bar loop for the whole track with just a bit variation towards the end. Also the mix let's this track appear "very small". It doesn't sound as huge as it wants to ... I would add a lot of small percussions with a very high pulse (like 16th notes in the back to pulse up the track). Also the final hit should be much bigger than everything before and maybe be 4 hits instead of just one. Keep in mind that if this track has to be used on trailers etc ... in the end producers mostly want to create some excitement by having some fast picture cut and the movie name. You want to end up with your track being used for the FULL trailer and not just a few seconds!


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 25, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> Just some quick feedback. Nice theme, but percussions are really boring, you melodically do a lot to bring in variation on theme, adding instruments, changing patterns etc. ... but percussions sounds like it is just a 4 bar loop for the whole track with just a bit variation towards the end. Also the mix let's this track appear "very small". It doesn't sound as huge as it wants to ... I would add a lot of small percussions with a very high pulse (like 16th notes in the back to pulse up the track). Also the final hit should be much bigger than everything before and maybe be 4 hits instead of just one. Keep in mind that if this track has to be used on trailers etc ... in the end producers mostly want to create some excitement by having some fast picture cut and the movie name. You want to end up with your track being used for the FULL trailer and not just a few seconds!



Thanks a lot for the feedback! About the mix, do you mean, that I should fix the mix, or just add small percussions with a high pulse? Good point about the final hit. About the percussion. I'm stuck. How much should I change the variations? And how often? Usually I make too complex rhythm, and now it's too boring. 

Anyway, here's the new version, not much variation to the percs yet, just added high hits and percussion, and bigger last hit:


The old version:


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 26, 2016)

Again new version .



This time took away those high hihat hits from the percussion. Saved the high and fast drums, but made them quieter. I think they sit in the mix better now. Took away the piano at the end. Changed the last big percussion hit to just one. That's about it.


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## Waywyn (Sep 27, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> Again new version .
> 
> 
> 
> This time took away those high hihat hits from the percussion. Saved the high and fast drums, but made them quieter. I think they sit in the mix better now. Took away the piano at the end. Changed the last big percussion hit to just one. That's about it.




Sounds much better now, but just to me personally it is not big!
Where are the heavy trombone chords towards the end. All the hits are ok, but they just sound hollow. Why not sneak in some Stylus Boomers or HZ01 Low Hits, Taikos. Also there are so many trailer hits out there, some great stuff in Damage, Gravity, all those Audio Imperia releases and Symphobia 2.

Also I still don't feel sure about the little more calm part towards the end, ... please take 15 mins and analyze and watch trailers. If there is a heavy ending and a rest or a calm part, it is mostly just 1-4 bars and then there is a huge finale going, not just a single hit! Your song is called the Brave Rise, but at the end I see just one suddenly looking up from his smartphone while sitting all the time :D

Sorry for being that rough, but trailer music is all about putting a huge red price tag on the movie, saying: GO AND F*CKING SEE ME AT THE THEATRE, I AM AWESOME! ... nothing else!


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 27, 2016)

Waywyn said:


> Sounds much better now, but just to me personally it is not big!
> Where are the heavy trombone chords towards the end. All the hits are ok, but they just sound hollow. Why not sneak in some Stylus Boomers or HZ01 Low Hits, Taikos. Also there are so many trailer hits out there, some great stuff in Damage, Gravity, all those Audio Imperia releases and Symphobia 2.
> 
> Also I still don't feel sure about the little more calm part towards the end, ... please take 15 mins and analyze and watch trailers. If there is a heavy ending and a rest or a calm part, it is mostly just 1-4 bars and then there is a huge finale going, not just a single hit! Your song is called the Brave Rise, but at the end I see just one suddenly looking up from his smartphone while sitting all the time :D
> ...



You don't have to be sorry. Your feedback is awesome!! Thank you for not letting me get off easily. I'll study trailers then


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## NoamL (Sep 27, 2016)

Impressive improvements! I like the latest version. It's definitely compositionally/thematically stronger.

Some more thoughts -

0:36-0:54 the muscular cello ostinato needs to be the main focus in the mix, don't let the horn upstage it too much!

at 0:54, the higher strings come in at the right time to add urgency, but it's anticlimactic for them to be playing the same pattern/rhythm. Something more rhythmically complicated perhaps?

1:07 - brass - why F-E? This is a buildup - F-G! 

1:08 - the drop is kind of a mess, too many things going in different directions. Pick one strong element.

1:10 - the brass and voice together are great at communicating that sort of Braveheart/Transformers tone (but the choir feels like it's lagging a bit, watch out for that). The percussion bed is good - but every 4 or 8 bars could use an ending riff with snares etc. to really drive into the next 4-bars.

Now you need something BETWEEN the melody and perc. String ostinato - bring back the muscular cellos? I notice belatedly that you have it going on in the violins - it's not powerful there.

1:26 step it up a level here.... needs new material. You have a lot of space in your melody, how about a counterline? something like -







Dunno, that's kind of weak, but you see what I mean about filling gaps.

1:48 - nice crescendo, but too many chords - you only really need the two - FAD to BbDF (yeah it's a Batman thing)

Ending stinger isn't really convincing to me. Try something else (I know it sucks to throw out material!)


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## Lassi Tani (Oct 4, 2016)

Thanks a lot @Waywyn and @NoamL for the feedback. That really helped me!

A new version: 


Old version: https://app.box.com/s/8p9v92x7kfq5d5u2nuoaqqdnacwqzv7j

Still I think the climax 2 doesn't quite work. What did you mean @Waywyn with the trombone chords? Long sustained? I added them, but they don't add much to the movement of that part.


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