# MIA Christian Henson and Paul Thomson



## Zedcars (Apr 9, 2022)

They used to post here fairly frequently. It was refreshing to see a company’s founders so hands on; discussing openly about their libraries is beneficial for both costumers and their company alike. But Paul’s last post was in January 2021, and Christian’s was May 2021. It seems there was some heated discussion and criticism of their products and this may have prompted them to not participate anymore. I don’t fully know if there was a specific comment, or series of negative comments that led them to stop posting. But it is a shame that they left as I enjoyed their participation. Quite apart from their roles as representatives of a highly valued sample library producer, their technical knowledge and willingness to share and help other composers is also highly valued.

It would be great to see them back again.

Thoughts?


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## CT (Apr 10, 2022)

Developers are faced with two different flavors of "criticism" in a place like this. The first is genuine carefully considered critique, which most, _most_, seem to deal with just fine. The second is an endless stream of repetitive complaints and anger (both of which are often borne out of user error and not anything the developers have done wrong or should be responsible for rectifying), usually mixed in with some childish cliquey sniping. 

The second flavor is what drives them all away, and can you blame them? There is a massive supply of it here and across most of the internet. People love to whine and be indignant. It's bad enough for support to have to wade through stuff like that on top of the real issues being reported. Why engage in other places that tend to just pile more of that stuff on? 

Anybody who views this as an overreaction by developers greatly underestimates how much saintly patience is required to deal with the smelly unwashed consumer masses, and might well be a particularly heinous perpetrator themselves!


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 10, 2022)

I think they just moved on from VIC. Spitfire’s own community is pretty much elsewhere now too. CH is a good follow on Twitter.


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## RSK (Apr 10, 2022)

It's tough to come onto a place like this and listen to all the endless whining about your products. Even as much use as I've gotten from SSO the past couple years, I'm guilty of complaining about the QA as well.

But you know, if I ever got the chance I'd shake their hands and say thank you. They make usable, quality products and they don't deserve the slack they get here, including from me.


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## Virtuoso (Apr 10, 2022)

I'm sure the vast majority of people want Spitfire to be successful and when they post negative impressions, all they really want is for those issues to be addressed and fixed in a timely manner. Not unreasonable, given that several of these libraries are $1k each, and pretty unfair to just call this 'whining'.

I think people get justifiably frustrated when they get sucked in by the hype and polished marketing, pay premium prices, but then discover multiple warts and flaws that go unfixed for years or are simply abandoned, while Spitfire instead put their resources into developing new product lines. Just taking Strings as an example...

_Symphonic Strings, Symphonic Strings Evolutions, Angular String Evolutions, Fragile String Evolutions, Chamber Strings, Studio Strings, Sacconi Strings Quartet, Solo Strings, Alternative Solo Strings, BBCSO, The Albions, London Contemporary Orchestra Strings, London Contemporary Orchestra Textures, Abbey Road One, Abbey Road Two, Appassionata Strings, Symphonic Motions, Olafur Arnalds, Hans Zimmer Strings, Bernard Herrmann Composer Toolkit, Hauschka Composer Toolkit, Heirloom..._

There's no trial of any Spitfire products available or a return policy, so I'm all for those willing to take a risk on new products posting their honest opinions and reviews.

Compare this with ProjectSam, who are still, _14 years later_, releasing major updates to their core products. Have you ever seen a negative thread about ProjectSam? I don't think I have.


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## PaulieDC (Apr 10, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> *I think they just moved on from VIC. *Spitfire’s own community is pretty much elsewhere now too. CH is a good follow on Twitter.


Given the Grumpy Pants Ratio on this site, who can blame them.


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## PaulieDC (Apr 10, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> I'm sure the vast majority of people want Spitfire to be successful and when they post negative impressions, all they really want is for those issues to be addressed and fixed in a timely manner. Not unreasonable, given that several of these libraries are $1k each, and pretty unfair to just call this 'whining'.
> 
> I think people get justifiably frustrated when they get sucked in by the hype and polished marketing, pay premium prices, but then discover multiple warts and flaws that go unfixed for years or are simply abandoned, while Spitfire instead put their resources into developing new product lines. Just taking Strings as an example...
> 
> ...


Whoomp, there it is!


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## Virtuoso (Apr 10, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> Given the Grumpy Pants Ratio on this site, who can blame them.


Don't give people a reason to be grumpy - problem solved! Stand by your expensive products and fix your bugs. Better still, test them properly before release.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 11, 2022)

Sample developer posts a new product on VI-Control:

"can I get it for free? It has "strings" in the name I'm entitled to a free upgrade from a completely different product", "I can't get it for free, what a greedy company!"

"this is only about marketing, how dare a company have a marketing strategy for a product?!"

(All this while tuning to any show and film - the Spitfire samples are ever present.)

If I had my hard worked, sleepless nights musical output being judged and shitted upon, or taken for granted every time I would do the same.

You don't have to LOVE every single product they release and criticism is great but sometimes people here (and everywhere on the internet) don't realize there are actual people behind companies and products.


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## dcoscina (Apr 11, 2022)

This place can be pretty rough for developers. some people voice concerns diplomatically while others act like petulant children who never learned any manners. Who can blame Paul and Christian for spending their time and energy elsewhere?


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## dcoscina (Apr 11, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> I'm sure the vast majority of people want Spitfire to be successful and when they post negative impressions, all they really want is for those issues to be addressed and fixed in a timely manner. Not unreasonable, given that several of these libraries are $1k each, and pretty unfair to just call this 'whining'.
> 
> I think people get justifiably frustrated when they get sucked in by the hype and polished marketing, pay premium prices, but then discover multiple warts and flaws that go unfixed for years or are simply abandoned, while Spitfire instead put their resources into developing new product lines. Just taking Strings as an example...
> 
> ...


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## el-bo (Apr 11, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> This place can be pretty rough for developers. some people voice concerns diplomatically while others act like petulant children who never learned any manners. Who can blame Paul and Christian for spending their time and energy elsewhere?


I'm sure most people have the best intentions to be diplomatic, but it doesn't always happen like that. People are spending a lot of money on these products, with no recourse if they turn out to be not ideal for the buyers. So I get how tempers can become a little frayed, at times.

But this place clearly has a lot of love for their products and them as individuals, and are resigned to opening their wallets multiple times per year for SF libraries.


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## chillbot (Apr 11, 2022)

I also feel like VI-C likes to think of ourselves as the bustling center/hub of the sample library world where everyone should pay attention to us. When really we are just a small community of whiners that want everything as cheap as possible. No offense to us... I love all of us! (I probably wouldn't come here either.)


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 11, 2022)

chillbot said:


> I also feel like VI-C likes to think of ourselves as the bustling center/hub of the sample library world where everyone should pay attention to us. When really we are just a small community of whiners that want everything as cheap as possible. No offense to us... I love all of us! (I probably wouldn't come here either.)


Absolutely.
Where once a SF launch meant a shiny new thread attended by the Head Dons, nowadays we get a quick cut'n'paste job.

I don't blame them either. They've got the best part of a hundred staff on the books to support. VIC isn't going to prop that up even if we like to think we do.


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## dcoscina (Apr 11, 2022)

el-bo said:


> I'm sure most people have the best intentions to be diplomatic, but it doesn't always happen like that. People are spending a lot of money on these products, with no recourse if they turn out to be not ideal for the buyers. So I get how tempers can become a little frayed, at times.
> 
> But this place clearly has a lot of love for their products and them as individuals, and are resigned to opening their wallets multiple times per year for SF libraries.


I guess those of us who have been using sample libraries since their inception (when they were much more expensive) have a different perspective on these things. I am also of the mind that you get more flies with honey than vinegar. As I'm in music retail, I can tell you, I don't go to all ends of the earth to help rude, obnoxious customers. I do what I have to, no more, no less. For the ones who genuinely need help and are reasonable (they can be upset, but not abusive) I will do everything I can to resolve their issues. Problem is that our modern society reinforces poor behaviour. Got a problem? Yell, kick and scream and go to social media to bitch. I shake my head at this....

No one should be treated like a doormat.


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## el-bo (Apr 11, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> I guess those of us who have been using sample libraries since their inception (when they were much more expensive) have a different perspective on these things. I am also of the mind that you get more flies with honey than vinegar. As I'm in music retail, I can tell you, I don't go to all ends of the earth to help rude, obnoxious customers. I do what I have to, no more, no less. For the ones who genuinely need help and are reasonable (they can be upset, but not abusive) I will do everything I can to resolve their issues. Problem is that our modern society reinforces poor behaviour. Got a problem? Yell, kick and scream and go to social media to bitch. I shake my head at this....
> 
> No one should be treated like a doormat.


I completely understand that. But unless you're suggesting that everyone here has been rude and obnoxious, I don't see why they wouldn't block certain members and deal with those with whom they had positive exchanges. Perhaps, as some have suggested, VIC doesn't represent enough of their business to be that bothered about it. But clearly people here are still spending loads on their libraries, and generally viewing them in a positive light.

As for bitching on SM? Unfortunately, there is no recourse for those who have spent hundreds on a library that turns out to not be fit for use. How these issues are portrayed may require some finessing, but don't you think it's important that we get to hear other members' negative experiences?


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## Futchibon (Apr 11, 2022)

I’d be very excited if Paul came back!


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Apr 11, 2022)

I’m not sure Paul and Christian have a whole lot of time for being active here tbh. Just look at the rate by which Spitfire’s been releasing new libraries here in 2022, it’s crazy. All of it requires planning from P&C. I’ll bet they’re doing their fair share of meetings these days - their role has changed because of Spitfire’s growth. It’s not a small group of people recording and releasing stuff anymore.


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## dcoscina (Apr 11, 2022)

el-bo said:


> for those who have spent hundreds on a library that turns out to not be fit for use.


I've spent $100K on music gear since the 90s, and I've never gone off on anyone the way I see some people do here. No one is advocating withholding feedback to developers.. hey, it's a free country; you can say whatever you want. but be prepared for the recipients to not like how you are saying it and react accordingly (how many developers have left this forum? I lost count....)


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## Trash Panda (Apr 11, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> This place can be pretty rough for developers. some people voice concerns diplomatically while others act like petulant children who never learned any manners. Who can blame Paul and Christian for spending their time and energy elsewhere?


I've noticed most of the petulant behavior towards developers typically comes when developers refuse to acknowledge genuine issues with their products that are raised diplomatically. 

More often than not, the responses I saw from any feedback/discussion from those two that wasn't effusing praise for the sacred grounds they walked on ranged from dismissive to arrogant.


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## zwhita (Apr 11, 2022)

The forum is a refuge where rogues and saints alike can go to have a voice, but possibly an outdated one for methods of promotion and marketing. They certainly are not short on profitable ideas, given the plethora of new releases lately.

It's up for debate whether or not reviews and opinions submitted here make a significant difference on their bottom line. Maybe they stopped visiting here when it no longer did?


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## JohnG (Apr 11, 2022)

zwhita said:


> It's up for debate whether or not reviews and opinions submitted here make a significant difference on their bottom line.


I have met the Spitfire guys a couple of times. They really don't radiate that their primary motivation (or even secondary motivation) is money ("the bottom line"). Most probably know that they both are composers, and I think that really shows. Sure, they probably make money but then, if you want to stay in business, whether as a composer or developer, you have to make money.

*Problems?*

Sure, some of their products are expensive. Sure, there are imperfections in some of them, but over time they have fixed innumerable issues with them, and I think they do an excellent job.

*Complaints*

I agree with those who have pointed out that, not infrequently, some of the loudest, most entitled, most acidic critics suffer from a combination of user error and lack of understanding about what sample libraries really do -- that some imperfections are inevitable and _often they don't really matter. _If you microscope every sample in any library you are going to find problems. 

*Solution*

So what do you do when you encounter a patch that doesn't sound good? 

Pick a different patch and keep writing.

[note: I have received free products from Spitfire]


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## zwhita (Apr 11, 2022)

It still begs the question, "Why would they come here?", even if it's strictly in the role of composers? Remember when HZ paid a surprise visit and one person ruined it by complaining about his music? I'm genuinely curious why Paul and Christian would bother now.


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## SchnookyPants (Apr 11, 2022)

chillbot said:


> I also feel like VI-C likes to think of ourselves as the bustling center/hub of the sample library world where everyone should pay attention to us. When really we are just a small community of whiners that want everything as cheap as possible. No offense to us... I love all of us! (I probably wouldn't come here either.)


WAIT! What?

not ... C E N T E R ?


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 11, 2022)

JohnG said:


> So what do you do when you encounter a patch that doesn't sound good?
> 
> Pick a different patch and keep writing.


I'm sure you meant to say _"Log on to VI-C and start a rage thread."  _


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## Virtuoso (Apr 11, 2022)

JohnG said:


> Pick a different patch and keep writing.


I guess you've been lucky enough to avoid this situation then?
View attachment repair.mp4


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## Dirtgrain (Apr 11, 2022)

Has it been confirmed that they haven't posted here of late because of members dissing their products/pricing?


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## Zedcars (Apr 11, 2022)

Dirtgrain said:


> Has it been confirmed that they haven't posted here of late because of members dissing their products/pricing?


Put it this way, the last sentences suggested as much — from Paul at least. But his actual reasons may be more nuanced and/or varied than this.

Paul Thomson in January 2021:



> I mean - where do I say Cuivre is not an acoustic sound?? I’ve recorded it on several sample libraries?
> 
> I do sometimes wonder why I bother!!



Time is valuable — especially if you are trying to juggle home life/composing/running a big company.


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## CT (Apr 11, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> I guess you've been lucky enough to avoid this situation then?
> View attachment repair.mp4


It has happened to me when I've been goofily moving stuff around too much, yep. They always got back to me promptly with things reset!


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## bvaughn0402 (Apr 11, 2022)

I used to think maybe VIC was too negative ... but I've seen them get slammed on Facebook just as much ... and they haven't abandoned that.

I don't like the negativity of social media ... but it IS the world today. ONE negative voice can sound like THOUSANDS. 

Social media is toxic. Period. 

So I used to sympathize when people like them abandoned a place like VIC due to negativity.

Now, I'm more likely to say ... Grow a thicker skin and deal with it ... or change to a different business that doesn't involve social media. Or at least be consistent (because there is NO way Facebook is less toxic than here).

Are they going to abandon YouTube with a thumbs down or negative comment? No. Are they going to abandon Facebook because someone complains about pricing? No. 

Personally, I've started "rewarding" businesses that stick it out here and communicate with us (like VSL). To me, I want to support a company that is "supporting" me.


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## CT (Apr 11, 2022)

bvaughn0402 said:


> Personally, I've started "rewarding" businesses that stick it out here and communicate with us (like VSL).


VSL did abandon the Discord server though because some of us apparently were ribbing the company too much (not at all to the unfriendly degree that happens on here sometimes with other developers). Not exactly sticking it out....


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 11, 2022)

Their developer, Karma, showed up here with the launch of Appassionata Strings and has been very helpful. I'm sure we'll scare him away in due time though.

I think the challenge is there _are_ members here who are not just voicing complaints, but doing so as if they have some immense knowledge of sampling and scripting (they don't) or recording live orchestras (they don't) or feel they are pointing out "warts" when in actuality they are misusing the library as it was designed. Demos don't "fool" customers - they're using the library, not some custom special secret version of it. If you don't like the demo or you don't think you write in the way the demo showcases, don't buy it. But too many people here expect a library to essentially be a live player that they can get to do whatever they want - and then when it doesn't, yell at the developer for their "incompetence" or the recording engineer "for not even knowing how to record strings" or whatever.

Also, Spitfire Chamber Strings came out in 2013 and their last update to it was April 2021, so I'd say they are still trying to address issues and support their libraries. But people here will continue to complain about "abandonware".


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## bvaughn0402 (Apr 11, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> VSL did abandon the Discord server though because some of us apparently were ribbing the company too much (not at all to the unfriendly degree that happens on here sometimes with other developers). Not exactly sticking it out....


What Discord?! 

And that is sad and disappointing ...


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## Jdiggity1 (Apr 11, 2022)

I wouldn't think too hard about it.
In general, people use a forum if they feel there's something they can get out of it.
For a lot of us, that starts in the form of learning things from more experienced people in the field. Looking for tutorials, tips and tricks, or getting support. Eventually, members feel they're not learning anything new anymore so they move on, and a 'new wave' comes in.
Others come more for the social aspect and will be here chiming in regardless of the topic.
And then there's some who 'contribute' almost exclusively to their own threads and after sharing their latest helpful video. File under 'commercial interests'.
Paul (like many other now-successful developers) was part of the forum from very early on, pre-spitfire, at a time where sample library development was new and exciting and largely under-explored. There was a lot to learn for anybody interested in that field, and the community was still small and niche enough that most people shared the same interests and goals.
The community has exploded since then into something much more diverse, and the interests have clearly expanded and shifted with it, so it's only natural that quite a significant portion of the "old regulars" have moved on. What they used to come here for is just not as prevalent anymore.


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## Dirtgrain (Apr 11, 2022)

I do miss Christian Henson's vlog thread--haven't seen it recently and hope for more. It's often cool, informative, funny, good for the community.


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## KEM (Apr 11, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I’m not sure Paul and Christian have a whole lot of time for being active here tbh. Just look at the rate by which Spitfire’s been releasing new libraries here in 2022, it’s crazy. All of it requires planning from P&C. I’ll bet they’re doing their fair share of meetings these days - their role has changed because of Spitfire’s growth. It’s not a small group of people recording and releasing stuff anymore.



I’m fine with them not having time to post here if it means they’re hard at work on Hans Zimmer Brass!!


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## CT (Apr 11, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m fine with them not having time to post here if it means they’re hard at work on Hans Zimmer Brass!!


I think they're doing HZWW first....


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## Zanshin (Apr 11, 2022)

Yep.


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## PaulieDC (Apr 12, 2022)

Virtuoso said:


> Don't give people a reason to be grumpy - problem solved! Stand by your expensive products and fix your bugs. Better still, test them properly before release.


With you on that actually! "VSL 14-Day Return Policy? Meet the rest of the industry. Rest of the industry? Meet VSL."


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## el-bo (Apr 12, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> I've spent $100K on music gear since the 90s, and I've never gone off on anyone the way I see some people do here. No one is advocating withholding feedback to developers.. hey, it's a free country; you can say whatever you want. but be prepared for the recipients to not like how you are saying it and react accordingly (how many developers have left this forum? I lost count....)


As you acknowledge, we're talking about some people, not everyone. And there are forum functions in place to deal with anything that's really out-of-bounds for expected civill discourse. Perhaps I'm wrong, and that on balance the majority of their interactions with other members were negative? But from what other people have indicated, from other places, it seems they might perhaps be over-sensitive to criticism.

It's a shame.


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## AudioLoco (Apr 12, 2022)

bvaughn0402 said:


> I used to think maybe VIC was too negative ... but I've seen them get slammed on Facebook just as much ... and they haven't abandoned that.
> 
> I don't like the negativity of social media ... but it IS the world today. ONE negative voice can sound like THOUSANDS.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with that. It's online society ("the internet") that has to grow (up).
It's not normal to insult a stranger, it's not normal to feel so entitled in some circumstances.
We shouldn't normalize this toxicity and just accept it.

There aren't many businesses that can completely shy away from social media, which is a huge chunk of any market.

It's online culture that has to change. 

On my side I "reward" companies that make killer products that I want to use on every track/cue.


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## youngpokie (Apr 12, 2022)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> But too many people here expect a library to essentially be a live player that they can get to do whatever they want - and then when it doesn't, yell at the developer



My first ever library was Spitfire Studio Orchestra. I certainly expected it to do everything - not because I imagined it but because I read Spitfire's own _official _description of what it can do:






To recap:
- encyclopedic
- blockbuster
- finest players
- suitable for composers of all styles
- ultimate control
- deep anthology of articulations, numerous dynamic layers, seamless realism.

All styles, seamless realism and deep anthology of articulations is what sold me. Maybe it's what most first-timers do - buy into the Spitfire sales pitch for their first library purchase like I did. 

I had to save for several months to buy it (on sale!), and unlike some people I couldn't test-drive it upfront. "Just pick another patch" isn't possible for me without planning and saving. 

So, I completely understand anyone who felt cheated and scammed by Spitfire Audio. That's how I felt. Overpromise and underdeliver is part of their business model. I don't see any need to apologize for applying pressure on Spitfire to fix bugs and correct mistakes (it took them 8 months to fix a ticket I opened).


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 12, 2022)

Who would've thunk this tread would turn into the usual pile on? 

If I remember correctly, Paul and Christian actually made a deliberate effort to step back from direct customer service, actually announcing this to all intents. The company got bigger. They put another person in the role of CEO. Like the J-Digg said, it's just what happens as time advances.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Apr 16, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> My first ever library was Spitfire Studio Orchestra. I certainly expected it to do everything - not because I imagined it but because I read Spitfire's own _official _description of what it can do:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you watch the walkthroughs? Listen to the demos? What made you feel you were scammed after that then? 

Funny how people (here) keep complaining they got taken in by the marketing and then say it’s a scam while Spitfire libraries continue to be used daily by the biggest (and not the biggest) media composers out there. Quite a disconnect.


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## CT (Apr 16, 2022)

I'm always kind of surprised that people pay _any_ attention to marketing speak on a product page, let alone more than they do to demos, walkthroughs, reviews.

Even if it's your first VI purchase... surely it's not your first purchase of anything ever?


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## SupremeFist (Apr 16, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’m fine with them not having time to post here if it means they’re hard at work on Hans Zimmer Brass!!


You do realise Hans Zimmer Brass will turn out to be 300 trombones recorded at the edge of silence?


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## KEM (Apr 16, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> You do realise Hans Zimmer Brass will turn out to be 300 trombones recorded at the edge of silence?



That’s where OTT comes in


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## ism (Apr 16, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> deep anthology of articulations



There's no question that SStS has a fabulous range of articulations. In fact I don't think this breadth of sonority is celebrated enough. I'm still finding new ones that I love that I'd barely even noticed before.

I mean, I completely understand the despondency that descend as that sense of reality that crashes down when a new library doesn't do everything you imagined it would do. And there's some vacuous marketing happy talk in there to be sure ("ultimate control"? what does that even mean).

But also, I'm not sure why you would feel betrayed over the depth of articulations, or the promised realism of the round robins, or the quality of the players in Spitfire always has A-list performances, and I've never heard anyone criticize the quality of the musicians in Spitfire libraries before.


Still, I empathize. My first library purchases were, for the most part, entirely the wrong ones, for me at least. And the Studio orchestra isn't a great first orchestra for most people.

What I think this points to is a need to a better discourse of sample library criticism. And on this front vi-c really does have a role. But I think this means ensuring that both positive and negative reaction to a library is engaged with critically.


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## ism (Apr 16, 2022)

AudioLoco said:


> On my side I "reward" companies that make killer products that I want to use on every track/cue.


That's good business, I'm sure, and there's something to be said for that approach. 

But I also have to respect companies that simply aren't willing to normalize toxicity and abusiveness on social media (Jasper, for instance).


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## RSK (Apr 16, 2022)

SupremeFist said:


> You do realise Hans Zimmer Brass will turn out to be 300 trombones recorded at the edge of silence?


What??? NO! I want Batman to slap me in the face with his....wait, no. No I don't.


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## psy dive (Apr 16, 2022)

KEM said:


> That’s where OTT comes in


NOOOOOOOO!!! You can't do that! It's gonna mess with your phaaaase 🚨 aaaaaaaaah!


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## easyrider (Apr 17, 2022)

They have other things to do….


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## RogiervG (Apr 17, 2022)

easyrider said:


> They have other things to do….


like being on the official spitfire forum


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## easyrider (Apr 17, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> like being on the official spitfire forum


Yeah why would they post here with loads of neurotic sample library addicts? 😂


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## RogiervG (Apr 17, 2022)

easyrider said:


> Yeah why would they post here with loads of neurotic sample library addicts? 😂


yes, i know...


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## Mike Fox (Apr 17, 2022)

I’ll never buy into the notion that
VI-C is SO bad that developers stop showing their faces around here. That’s BS.

I mean, yeah, developers have done that before, and people can sometimes be a little harsh, but VI-C isn’t generally toxic, and the overwhelming majority of people here are straight up cool. Period.

Not to mention that we all have our bad days, and can come across like an asshole at times (guilty as charged).

I also think that if we’re good enough to be shown developer ads, and hand over our money to them to support their business, then we’re good enough for those same developers to socialize and engage with us on here.

Not saying they should or have to (I honestly don’t know how they find time to engage on here in the first place) just saying that VI-C is generally a great place with a shit ton of cool people, and not some toxic shit hole with pitchfork armed forum members out for developer blood.

2 cents.


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## CT (Apr 17, 2022)

Most of the time that's true, but it doesn't have to be like that _always_ to cause issues, and there's a pretty clear record of issues....


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## Gingerbread (Apr 17, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> I’ll never buy into the notion that
> VI-C is SO bad that developers stop showing their faces around here. That’s BS.
> 
> I mean, yeah, developers have done that before, and people can sometimes be a little harsh, but VI-C isn’t generally toxic, and the overwhelming majority of people here are straight up cool. Period.
> ...


My observation over the years is that developers don't usually come to VI Control to socialize, but to sell their wares. With rare exception, there's not much else beyond promoting products. Perhaps their presence and personality leads to the mistaken perception that they're more involved and invested in the VI Control community than they really are.

If a given developer no longer posts here, presumably they've concluded that the business it generated wasn't worth the effort. Engaging here was always about money, not making friends.


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## rgames (Apr 17, 2022)

JohnG said:


> So what do you do when you encounter a patch that doesn't sound good?
> 
> Pick a different patch and keep writing.


Well, what if you can't pick any patch because it says your license is no longer valid? Spitfire is the only developer that I've ever had an issue with a product that randomly decides you can't use it. Problems installing, sure. Problems re-installing, sure. But a library that was working fine the day before, and you change nothing, might suddenly be unusable because it thinks you don't have a license. And then you wait a few days to get it re-licensed...

But that's why I quit buying Spitfire products, and that's the real solution: vote with your dollars.

Nobody cares about forums. They care about dollars.

If they're still in business then there are enough people who aren't having any problems. Or who don't care about the problems enough to *not* buy the products. They want Spitfire to keep doing what they're doing. You and I may not, but you and I are outvoted.

Hooray capitalism.

rgames


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## Virtuoso (Apr 18, 2022)

rgames said:


> But a library that was working fine the day before, and you change nothing, might suddenly be unusable because it thinks you don't have a license. And then you wait a few days to get it re-licensed...
> 
> But that's why I quit buying Spitfire products, and that's the real solution: vote with your dollars.


Absolutely! If you don't like the quality of the products or the policies of the developer, please stop supporting them.

I once read something to the effect of "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference."
People posting negative opinions still actually _care_ about the products - they just want them to work properly and to live up to their billing. And negative feedback is still useful to a business - much more so than sales falling off a cliff without the business ever knowing why.

It doesn't take much for a developer to say "_Hey - we're sorry. We rushed this release and it falls short of our quality standards. Fixing it is our top priority and here is our timeline for dealing with these known issues._" But all too often instead, we get the grating hubris of another overinflated product release.

I don't bother with Spitfire product threads anymore. I've had such negative experiences with the damned players unexpectedly locking me out when out of the blue they need to be reset/repaired. I don't have the confidence to use them in projects any more. That's a LOT of wasted money that I'll never get back, but it's just not worth the frustration.


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## easyrider (Apr 18, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> I’ll never buy into the notion that
> VI-C is SO bad that developers stop showing their faces around here. That’s BS.
> 
> I mean, yeah, developers have done that before, and people can sometimes be a little harsh, but VI-C isn’t generally toxic, and the overwhelming majority of people here are straight up cool. Period.
> ...


I agree, the only assholes are the MAC evangelists! ( I joke! I Joke)

Things I have learnt from this forum are:


People are addicted to library Purchasing.
The Notion that Intel is far superior to AMD both in speed and stability (Total BS)
Massive Intel Bias
Massive MAC Bias
The Forum is geared more towards acquiring gear, software plugins than actually creating music.
People have a weird defence mechanism when it comes to the DAW they use.
Other than that people generally are cool, and polite and respectful….and supportive.Many people have messaged me over my time here and asked for help with their hardware choices….which has been nice to see.

We all have our bad days and I will generally nip BS in the bud when it comes to objective fact about Hardware platforms but it’s not coming from a place of arrogance….just experience and the majority of people appreciate that.

May Peace and Love abound. ❤️


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## AceAudioHQ (Apr 18, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> I’ll never buy into the notion that
> VI-C is SO bad that developers stop showing their faces around here. That’s BS.
> 
> I mean, yeah, developers have done that before, and people can sometimes be a little harsh, but VI-C isn’t generally toxic, and the overwhelming majority of people here are straight up cool. Period.


I agree, there are several devs here that get pretty much nothing but praise. There’s usually a clear reason why some of them get a lot of complaints and negativity, like for example eastwest, most of the chat is just fine.


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## jbuhler (Apr 18, 2022)

easyrider said:


> People are addicted to library Purchasing.
> The Notion that Intel is far superior to AMD both in speed and stability (Total BS)
> Massive Intel Bias
> Massive MAC Bias
> ...


I would classify points 2-4 under a generalized point 6: people have a weird defense mechanism when it comes to the CPUs, operating systems, DAWs, and libraries they choose.

so 


People are addicted to library Purchasing.
The Forum is geared more towards acquiring gear, software plugins than actually creating music.
People have a weird defense mechanism when it comes to CPUs, operating systems, DAWs, and libraries they choose.
I’ll add that I believe much of point 3 lies in a tendency to want to universalize our individual experience in order to receive self-validation (for our buying decisions). So there is a tendency to claim that this CPU or operating system or DAW or library is better than that one without giving a frame of reference for the evaluation, leading to an implicit assumption that our particular use case is, if not exactly universal, the one that matters most. And the result is that we often find it convenient to ignore that others have perfectly valid reasons for choosing other paths, and because their use case is not precisely ours, they are generally right to do so. This is all complicated by social structures that foster brand loyalty, which gets at points 1 and 2 and how they feed into the defense mechanism of point 3.


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## youngpokie (Apr 18, 2022)

ism said:


> I mean, I completely understand the despondency that descend as that sense of reality that crashes down when a new library doesn't do everything you imagined it would do. And there's some vacuous marketing happy talk in there to be sure ("ultimate control"? what does that even mean).


Yes, this is pretty much how it felt - despondency. You're new, you must save for a long time and you're in a unique situation because (a) it's your first library (b) you don't yet have enough experience and (c) you simply have no choice but to trust others: either other users or the developers or both.

In my own case, I was sure I did my research and homework. But I suspect first time buyers in general are particularly vulnerable to the kind of scammy marketing Spitfire Audio practices.

Since then I bought only a few more libraries - from Orchestral Tools, Audio Modeling and Audiobro. And not once have I felt this kind of "they overpromised and under-delivered" vibe from so many users as has become ubiquitous with nearly any Spitfire product. And not once have I felt I shouldn't trust any developer as a matter of principle, as some in this thread suggested. I still don't.

As for "where in the world is PT or CH" questions (and the promotional videos), I find the responsiveness to issues and direct user engagement, especially from Audio Modeling and Audiobro, is outstanding. It almost rises to the same level of personal engagement, honesty and responsiveness as is shown every single day by the Dorico developers (including on this very forum), which is really in a league of its own and should be an industry standard.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 18, 2022)

To the original question of why Paul and Christian don't post here anymore, I'm sure Spitfire criticisms are a factor. (Even in my own case, where the vast majority of people are really nice in what they say about Realitone, I still can't help taking the criticisms more personally than I ever thought I would have.) On the surface, I imagine Paul and Christian might even think these criticisms are the main factor.

I think the bigger reason, though, is that posting on the forum is simply not as fun for them as it once was. At heart, Paul and Christian are both still composers, but when you're making a million a year from Spitfire (that's just my estimate - salary plus dividends), it's hard to stay excited about scoring low budget features that no one is going to watch. So your interest shifts to other hobbies. (Like a YouTube channel, or building a studio for your synth collection.) So debating reverbs on VI-C becomes less interesting than it might have been if you were still scoring a dozen projects a year.

There's also the issue of having to be more careful with what you say when you own a company. In my own case, I pulled waaayyy back on what I'd post after Realitone started becoming a real company. Little offhand jokes can be misinterpreted and blow up in your face. (I have the Deniz Hughes battle scars on that one.)

And you don't dare chime in with your own thoughts about an inferior release from another company. That's all stuff you would do with no worries before Spitfire (or Realitone), but now there are entire topics you have to avoid, and you're in constant edit mode. It makes it a lot less fun, and speaking for myself, my forum visits are very different than they were ten years ago when I could make jokes about EW's NAMM presentations or sloppy legato from xxxx. For Paul and Christian, I imagine that scrutiny is multiplied tenfold.

So the fun parts of being on the forum are mostly gone, and what you're mostly left with is representing Spitfire, which means a lot of your time on the forum will be fielding criticisms.


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## davidson (Apr 18, 2022)




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## RSK (Apr 18, 2022)

I'm not a big fan of anything Spitfire recorded outside of Lyndhurst, but I'll say this; if you can't create a reasonable mockup in Spitfire Studio series, the problem isn't the library. It has more than enough instruments and aticulations and round robins and blah blah blah to get the job done. The one thing it doesn't have is reverb, so go buy something from Valhalla for $50 and use that. There have been amazing mockups done with libraries much older and less convincing than Spitfire Studio, and it's because the people making them had skills.

What's the old saying? "It's a poor workman who blames his tools?"

Yeah, that.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 18, 2022)

Gingerbread said:


> My observation over the years is that developers don't usually come to VI Control to socialize, but to sell their wares. With rare exception, there's not much else beyond promoting products. Perhaps their presence and personality leads to the mistaken perception that they're more involved and invested in the VI Control community than they really are.
> 
> If a given developer no longer posts here, presumably they've concluded that the business it generated wasn't worth the effort. Engaging here was always about money, not making friends.


I’m sure you are correct in that some (probably most) developers only engage to promote their products and not make friends, but there are also several developers who do engage on here for the social aspect (which can actually help their business).

But business or not, my point was more geared towards the “VI-C is too toxic for developers to be active on here” types of comments i see being made from time to time. I just don’t buy into that tunnel vision perspective. There’s far more love and positivity towards developers on here than there is hate, and the amount of free promotion developers get on here just through forum members discussing and recommending their libraries shouldn’t be overlooked.

If a developer’s excuse to disassociate from VI-C is a time, money, and business one then i can completely understand that, but if they disassociate, because they feel that VI-C is somehow “anti-developer”, then I’d say they’re not really looking at the big picture, and probably allowed some hurt feelings to get in the way.

We applaud when a developer does something praiseworthy, and we criticize when we feel a developer has messed up somewhere, but i do believe that we’re a very fair and respectful forum overall.


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Apr 18, 2022)

These guys are running a company with what, 50+ employees? Management + making new sample libraries + family = a couple of incredibly busy folks


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## SandChannel (Apr 18, 2022)

My guess is they prefer to use their own forum for handling concerns/discussions about their products. It would be nice if they dropped by, but time, money, and all that jazz.


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## CT (Apr 18, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> But business or not, my point was more geared towards the “VI-C is too toxic for developers to be active on here” types of comments i see being made from time to time. I just don’t buy into that tunnel vision perspective.


You don't have to "buy into" anything. It's not a pet theory of mine; I personally know developers who feel that way. It's your prerogative to decide that's their fault for allowing "hurt feelings" to dictate their actions, but you can't really deny the pattern that a lot of these folks who put themselves into the open on here end up following.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 18, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> You don't have to "buy into" anything. It's not a pet theory of mine; I personally know developers who feel that way. It's your prerogative to decide that's their fault for allowing "hurt feelings" to dictate their actions, but you can't really deny the pattern that a lot of these folks who put themselves into the open on here end up following.


You missed my point. I never said it was a theory, nor am I in denial of some developers feeling disgruntled towards VI.

I’m simply saying that I don’t agree with their “glass half empty” perspective towards this forum. They may feel that way, but I don’t believe that’s an accurate representation of what VI-C really is.

That’s the part that I don’t buy into.


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## dzilizzi (Apr 18, 2022)

3DC said:


> I would be really surprised if that was a factor at all. More likely these guys are very busy making new sample libraries or scores. Then there is business management, life and family matters. I doubt these two workaholics have any time left for networking.
> But I agree. In general you only tend to come back to people or in this case communities that appreciate (not necessarily always agree with) your comments and work. If not, its not the end of the world.


This is what I was thinking. They tend to show up when they have a new big library out. There hasn't been much lately that is BIG. And really, they do answer questions directed at them when they come up. I do see some of the Spitfire workers around here and there, so I think they monitor the threads but keep out unless they need to. Probably to avoid some of the prior problems when something gets said, and it gets misinterpreted.


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## Alex Fraser (Apr 18, 2022)

I think we're reading too much into it. I reckon they just...moved on. VI-C was the right place for them to be until it wasn't.


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## CT (Apr 18, 2022)

Mike Fox said:


> You missed my point. I never said it was a theory, nor am I in denial of some developers feeling disgruntled towards VI.
> 
> I’m simply saying that I don’t agree with their “glass half empty” perspective towards this forum. That’s what I don’t buy into.


Right, but again, what does it mean to not "buy into" it? You aren't in the position of making a product and representing it to an often fickle and unreasonable crowd, so I'm not sure what you are basing your perspective on when you decide they're wrong. 

As Mike Fox, forum denizen, I'm sure things usually feel just peachy around here. I think you'd have to go through the process of interacting directly with a community as a developer to better understand whether or not the decision to just cut ties is reasonable. Don't make the mistake of thinking that every bit of criticism is offered in reason and good faith as some sort of righteous crusade to hold developers to a high standard. There is an _immense_ amount of absurd noise and ill will, too, and almost invariably that's what drives people away, not the other stuff.


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## PaulieDC (Apr 18, 2022)

easyrider said:


> The Notion that Intel is far superior to AMD both in speed and stability (Total BS)


You go on and on and on endlessly about AMD processors as if they are the answer to all knowledge, driving us all up a cliff, however, you never EVER answer the most important question:















How are the legatos?


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## ism (Apr 18, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Don't make the mistake of thinking that every bit of criticism is offered in reason and good faith as some sort of righteous crusade to hold developers to a high standard. There is an _immense_ amount of absurd noise and ill will, too, and almost invariably that's what drives people away, not the other stuff.


I think it's more that there's a little bit of bad faith and ill will .. but even a little bit of this gets amplified vastly out of proportion.


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## CT (Apr 18, 2022)

ism said:


> I think it's more that there's a little bit of bad faith and ill will .. but even a little bit of this gets amplified vastly out of proportion.


Perhaps. Developers are largely on here in a professional capacity and not joking around and bantering like the rest of us. Their interactions are much more likely to include a high ratio of toxic junk as a result (and they may read banter as being actually mean-spirited, which is also unfortunate). 

Anyway, I think this is in danger of starting to go in circles so I won't contribute any more to a pile of needlessly repeated points. I'm just not totally comfortable with the idea that everything is fine, VI-Control doesn't need a little self-examination/attitude adjustment, and it's all the developers' problem for seeing the "glass as half empty." I do not think the community in general is so easily absolved!


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## sostenuto (Apr 18, 2022)

In terms of 'top-tier' VSTi libraries, over past several years, Christian Henson and Paul Thompson remain two, of very few, individuals _ active, and sharing impressive talents _ presenting and promoting their organizational creations. Troels Folmann, perhaps the only other omnipresent personality of similar ilk.

During personal involvement with VI-C, and libraries of similar nature _ OT, VSL, EW, CSS, NI _ Christian, Paul, Troels have been of enormous benefit, providing countless video presentations guiding notable investment _ monetary, time, talent, commitment _ to achieving enjoyment, challenge, advancement toward personal goals.

Can only offer thanks, kudos, sincere appreciation for their individual efforts.
Surely a major oversight, not to mention many members, here on VI-C Forums, who have also offered selfless assistance and guidance as well.
MIA is not a term fitting _personal_ impressions and experience.


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## Mike Fox (Apr 18, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Right, but again, what does it mean to not "buy into" it? You aren't in the position of making a product and *representing it to an often fickle and unreasonable crowd*, so I'm not sure what you are basing your perspective on when you decide they're wrong.


This is EXACTLY the perspective that I don’t buy into.

Are there unreasonable and fickle people on this forum? Yes, absolutely.

But are the majority of people on this forum fickle and unreasonable? No, not from where I’m standing. If VI-C was truly that bad, you wouldn’t see forum members (including developers) return here shortly after they stormed off for whatever reason.

There’s a lot of value and alot of good people on this forum, and that’s what makes this place worth it, imo.

And no, things aren’t always peachy around here for me either (especially as a reviewer). I’ve had
my fair share of heated arguments throughout the years, and you don’t need to be a developer to feel hated or unfairly critisized by some members here. Remember, it’s not just developers who have left this forum.

But at least i know that if you put yourself out there you have to be prepared to take the good with the bad.


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## patrick76 (Apr 18, 2022)

Michaelt said:


> Anybody who views this as an overreaction by developers greatly underestimates how much saintly patience is required to deal with the smelly unwashed consumer masses


Harsh bro! Well, I got a good laugh from that. I think the community here is above the average, smelly unwashed consumer masses, but I generally don't spend much time on the massive threads about particular libraries. And although I would be happy to see Spitfire and other developers post here, I also don't particularly care (which may put me in the minority it would seem).


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## CT (Apr 18, 2022)

patrick76 said:


> Harsh bro! Well, I got a good laugh from that. I think the community here is above the average, smelly unwashed consumer masses, but I generally don't spend much time on the massive threads about particular libraries. And although I would be happy to see Spitfire and other developers post here, I also don't particularly care (which may put me in the minority it would seem).


Hah well I was _mostly _joking there....


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## SandChannel (Apr 19, 2022)

I am very new here and with that perspective, I've noticed Spitfire discussions seem to turn toxic pretty quick. That said, it is clear that the voices of dissent are limited to a few, but that they are often the loudest in the thread. Loudest in this context means they always post their position again and again whether relevant to the discussion or not. I can understand why the Spitfire guys are reluctant to get into the mud when there is little point in the grand scheme of things.


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## ism (Apr 19, 2022)

SandChannel said:


> I am very new here and with that perspective, I've noticed Spitfire discussions seem to turn toxic pretty quick. That said, it is clear that the voices of dissent are limited to a few, but that they are often the loudest in the thread. Loudest in this context means they always post their position again and again whether relevant to the discussion or not. I can understand why the Spitfire guys are reluctant to get into the mud when there is little point in the grand scheme of things.


Yes, there’s a historical context to this dynamic of course. But on the face of it, I appreciate how silly it must seem.

Like, imagine if on every, say, jazz clarinet thread everyone who doesn't care much about jazz clarinet music felt the need to show up and loudly bang on and on about just how much they don't care about jazz clarinets and how profoundly their needs are just not being served by yet another jazz clarinet library .... very silly


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## dzilizzi (Apr 19, 2022)

I guess the option to block users from a thread you start is not an option? I mean, if they don't see it, they can't comment on it. Just a thought.


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