# 🎻 Do you NEED a College Degree to become a Composer? 🎻



## zedmaster (Mar 14, 2021)

Formal music education sets you in a good position, but self-learning can do the trick, too!
What do you think?


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2021)

Hi, Kevin, first I want to say that I like your videos and the style very much!

You asked your my standpoint, so here it is 

I attended a high school of music for studying classical percussion (Bachelor) and later visited a university for my Masters in Musicology. So I would like to clarify that when you attend a professional education in a music-related topic, there are of course schedules - but it's not that it works like studying medicine (I know how it works from friends of mine) because often you are taught in very small groups and for some fields you get even single lessons with your professor. When you are studying composition you get single lessons (only you and a professor/teacher) in piano, figured bass, singing - and of course composing. Theory and Harmony is often taught in groups between 5-10 people, sometimes more. But still, it's always on a very personal level so the teachers can interact with you and also focus on some things which interest you most.
Then of course you also need to attend seminars and lectures but there are varying in topis every semester so you have a lot to choose from. You can visit a seminar about Mahler's symphonies or early italian opera or post-war music or...

I think it's very important to be forced out of your comfort zone and if one have no guidance one tends to concentrate on always the same things. For example: If someone wants to compose like John Williams I would advise him _not_ to listen to Williams primarily but to Stravinnsky, Mahler, Strauss, Tchaikwosky, Prokoview, Ravel, Debussy (and not only their orchestral stuff) as well as Jazz.
At a university or a high school of music you get this input from "outside" which is precious for developing. You can quickly get lost in the vast amount of tutorials and demo videos on youtube...

Also, for me _personally_, I don't want to express my feelings in a piece. Working on a piece of music takes weeks, sometimes months for me and in this time I have a lot of feelings - and some I couldn't share through music, others I don't _want_ to. I compose to be able to listen to _exactly _the music I want to hear at some point. 
One has to take into consideration: Art was for a long time _not_ about expressing ones individual feelings. Rennaissance and baroque composers didn't think that way - they thought about what they did more like a craft, not an emotional expression. And I have to say: Music is not "somehow also" a craft, but it _is_!

But let me add a final word: No, you _don't _need formal education to become a great composer. Just look at Gabriel Yared. He is - as far as I know - completely self-taught. And he is capable of composing pieces like these:


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 14, 2021)

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences and opinions! 

Medicine was the most standardized thing you can imagine... Glad to hear that in music you have more flexibility and smaller groups.

Totally agree about the comfort zone. Feeling to satisfied and "safe" can - to me - limit me in my ambitions and it can feel a bit daunting to start something new and unknown. Trying to force myself out of it every now and then. Sometimes succeeding, sometimes not


----------



## GNP (Mar 14, 2021)

It depends on what you wanna do. I went to Berklee, yes. It has made me learn useful stuff like counterpoint, and also widened my Jazz vocabulary horizons. But I think all of this stuff can be done on your own, and quite frankly, to be a film composer, I don't think formal education is really a must. There are lots of dropouts and self-learned composers who are successful out there.


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 14, 2021)

No. You don’t.

However, I have met some great people and have worked on various film projects with some of these people because of studying an MA (and now an MFA). Meeting people is, for me, the greatest thing that ever happened due to studying and you won’t get that from watching someone’s YouTube video.

But no. You don’t need a degree. It’s ridiculous to even think you do need one. I have never once got a paid job because someone asked “what degree do you have?” Obviously I would respond “degrees”. 😂


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 14, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> No. You don’t.
> 
> However, I have met some great people and have worked on various film projects with some of these people because of studying an MA (and now an MFA). Meeting people is, for me, the greatest thing that ever happened due to studying and you won’t get that from watching someone’s YouTube video.
> 
> But no. You don’t need a degree. It’s ridiculous to even think you do need one. I have never once got a paid job because someone asked “what degree do you have?” Obviously I would respond “degrees”. 😂


Thanks for sharing your opinion and experiences! I heard from many peoples that they value the connections and friendships established during their studies. Great to hear!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 15, 2021)

Well, I don't think you should have any regrets about 6 years of medical school. You most likely have a decent paying career now, which in turn gives you the freedom to pursue your musical dream without having to worry about being a "starving musician". I don' think it matters if you have a formal degree in music or not, as that's only one part of the equation. Marketing, perseverance, networking, and becoming technically proficient with producing music is also as important. For example, a few colleagues have degrees in composition/performance, but can't get their heads around using a sequencer (let alone turning on a computer!). Without formal training, a composer should at very least take ongoing piano lessons, etc. Otherwise, the composition process gets stagnant on monotonous (been there, done that!).


----------



## mikrokosmiko (Mar 15, 2021)

No


----------



## GNP (Mar 15, 2021)

Prestigious awards and formal education are similiar in a sense that they are NOT good indicators of your future.

Good luck.


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 15, 2021)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Well, I don't think you should have any regrets about 6 years of medical school. You most likely have a decent paying career now, which in turn gives you the freedom to pursue your musical dream without having to worry about being a "starving musician". I don' think it matters if you have a formal degree in music or not, as that's only one part of the equation. Marketing, perseverance, networking, and becoming technically proficient with producing music is also as important. For example, a few colleagues


Most of my regrets are more related to missed opportunities for personal growth during those years (totally my fault!). I agree, being able to open a DAW can help! :D


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 15, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> Most of my regrets are more related to missed opportunities for personal growth during those years (totally my fault!). I agree, being able to open a DAW can help! :D


Hind sight is 20/20! Just remember, there’s a reason you’re where you are now.


----------



## lgmcben (Mar 16, 2021)

I can't tell the difference between your tracks and tracks made by professionals but that's just me. (maybe the same could be said for 99% of average non-musician listeners)


----------



## Crowe (Mar 16, 2021)

No, you don't need a degree to do anything except get hired by people or companies who require you to have a degree.

Speaking from personal experience.


----------



## GtrString (Mar 16, 2021)

Imo, you can not rely on YouTube videos to learn anything important. It is absolutely not anything that can take the place of education. Yes, Youtube is what you have when not enrolled, and it can be fine for doing specific things, but it can NOT be compared with education at all, which is what I think this video does.

I think its important to understand what education can do and can’t do for you. Here’s a tentative list, others may add to the columns..

Can:
- get you more into music simply by having to spend the time with equalminded students and teachers
- make you meet new people, who may later be important for you
- make you more scholar’y about the nitty/gritty of music, going deep
- teach you subjects you wouldn’t have chosen yourself, and discover new things of interest
- provide you with neccesary documentation for some (public) institutional jobs and other educational contexts
- get you out of the house and see new places, studios, iconic places

Can’t:
- make you successful
- get you gigs
- build your career reputation
- give you a sustainable income
- make you creative/ more productive
- teach you to set up your own business
- get you relevant network in your specialist area of choice

If the can’ts are more important to you, you may start to build your career here first, and wait with education untill you get more established (you can always get a master degree, which is a real educational shortcut to academia).

If the can’s are more important, you should enroll, but also start working on the can’ts list. It’s not really either-or, but both-and.

If you are young, and not 120% comitted yet, education can really help you. But if you already got the Ferrari drive, and just want to get out of the gates fast - use that energy on writing, performing and building your career, first.

No matter what, learning is inevitable, education not so much, allthough you may become a better learner, but you also risk getting pacified by the institutional humdrum.

Education is not so much for getting jobs, as for building a platform for being in music. Sometimes, when others try to change your mind, it can help to be able to say, ”but music is what I am educated in”. But it is also a lot of work for just that.

my2c


----------



## mikeh-375 (Mar 16, 2021)

I'm formally trained and naturally think that knowing is better than not. However it can be a curse depending on what you want to write and/or your mindset and approach to theory and its application. Some genres do need knowledge and experience though and this includes in particular, real orchestration, although in midistration who cares, unless you want to sound real. If you want to work with real players then unless you get pros in to make up for your deficiencies, you will be found out immediately if you bypass know-how.

With compositional theory, if it is not approached and then especially assimilated and utilised in the correct manner, it can upset things, but if used correctly it will free you and give you real strength and vision.


----------



## davidson (Mar 16, 2021)

I think something important to add to the _*can*_ list is that it can leave you in a lifetime of debt.


----------



## GtrString (Mar 16, 2021)

davidson said:


> I think something important to add to the _*can*_ list is that it can leave you in a lifetime of debt.


Yes, don’t go into debt for education. It won’t pay your bills for sure. If that is an issue, wait untill you can afford it. I am 50 and have just paid off my student loans last year. The debt bogged me down for a decade.


----------



## lgmcben (Mar 16, 2021)

GtrString said:


> Yes, don’t go into debt for education.


That's the way. Avoid education debt. Come to vi control. And go into debt for sample libraries instead.


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 16, 2021)

lgmcben said:


> That's the way. Avoid education debt. Come to vi control. And go into debt for sample libraries instead.


But you can get student discount when you are studying and therefore save massive amounts of money. Thus resulting in buying twice as much to make up the deficit. You have to think about these things before slagging off education 😂


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 16, 2021)

lgmcben said:


> That's the way. Avoid education debt. Come to vi control. And go into debt for sample libraries instead.


Sharing true wisdom, once again <3 I've loosely considered a master's programme e.g. at Thinkspace Education some day, but I really don't know yet. For now, I'll try to make my way without it and see how far I come


----------



## lgmcben (Mar 16, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> Sharing true wisdom, once again <3 I've loosely considered a master's programme e.g. at Thinkspace Education some day, but I really don't know yet. For now, I'll try to make my way without it and see how far I come



You can try first few lessons of their $349 course for free without time limit:






Cinematic Orchestration | ThinkSpace Education


Learn how to orchestrate for film, television or games using either samples or live players, taught by top Hollywood composers and orchestrators.




thinkspaceeducation.com





This is not even their degree course but there's already so much content. Just looking at it I feel like I deserve a PhD.


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 16, 2021)

GtrString said:


> Imo, you can not rely on YouTube videos to learn anything important. It is absolutely not anything that can take the place of education.


Sorry man, but this just isn't true. I have learned more (in certain things) than any of the degrees I have studied by watching people's YouTube videos. In certain things. I'm just saying, there are some people out there that are teaching stuff that you won't find on a syllabus. I can actually name drop myself here actually. If you wanna learn how to program Cubase Macros and use Touchscreen commands, I made a few videos that wasn't taught in any of the degrees I've studied and studying. I was was even advised on my course to "stop spending time learning that stuff and spend my time getting better at writing music". Well, one video led me to taking a job in New York in a Mixing and Mastering studio. So, yeah, glad I didn't follow that advise and I'm glad I made at least some kind of video people have found useful. So much so, someone has told me they referenced a couple of videos I did on that in their degree thesis! 😂 I still find that wild.

Of course, there are exceptions to rules and there are also a massive amount of horrendous YouTube videos with people just talking bollocks and giving terrible advise but there are some that are amazing. Sounds exactly like a University. Some are great, with excellent tutors that all have real world experience that actually work in the industry. And then you have the rest that are full of inexperienced hacks, with zero credits, that have never amounted to more than playing cover gigs in their local towns or writing for local short films and think they know how to score feature films and therefore teaching terrible syllabuses. It's a minefield.



GtrString said:


> Can’t:
> - make you successful
> - get you gigs
> - build your career reputation
> ...


From top to bottom of your list...

1 Well, that's subjective. If you meet the right people and it lands you the right connections which leads to paid work and all that good stuff, it can help to make you successful. It's all a massive gamble though but not a strict "can't".

2 Can't get you gigs? I've got loads of gigs through studying an MA and and MFA. Both through the University and also through other people studying that need Guitar for a feature, live playing on library tracks, becoming an assistant for composers on a feature, becoming an additional writer for a feature, traveling to Belgium Galaxy Studios to assist live recording orchestra and doing Pro Tools prep stuff (amongst many other tasks I got landed in deep water with), working in New York in the worlds first analogue immersive mixing and mastering studios. To list a few things. So yes, of course it can get you gigs. It all depends on who you meet but more importantly, what are you like? Do people like you? Are you easy to get on with? Do you know when to talk and not talk? Are you a liar? Do you have good hygiene? Do you have a massive work ethic? Do you apply yourself to any task given no matter what? Can people stand being in a room with you for 20hrs a time every day for weeks at at a time? Nobody wants to work with somebody that's going to be a nightmare. However, this comes back to luck again, because what happens if you choose a Course that ends with you meeting nobody? Luck of the dice but you can help your own luck by at least having qualities people want. Anyway, of course you can get gigs.

3 Yeah I don't think having a degree would ever build your career reputation. It's a bit of paper. Very smokable.

4 A degree will give you a sustainable income. If you want to be academic and work in a University. If I had finished my current MFA I would have definitely taken some more work for Universities to keep a wage coming in as things are desperate in covid times. You'd be surprised at how many people do this to supplement their incomes. So yes, it can give a sustainable income.

5 Depends. Really depends. Being around load of other determined and creative types can actually lead to some very creative fun. Then again, maybe all the people you study with are total dick heads and write terrible music and you'd rather work by yourself than ever work with them. Totally depends. As for being more productive. If you go onto a degree and you have never even down a deadline before, even learning that kind of thing will boost productivity because you are working to deadlines. All be it fake ones, it still makes people be productive. And the more skills you learn, the more productive you can be. it's amazing how much you can learn from the other students and not the actual course. Again, if your fellow students aren't very good and you are just out of luck and studying on a bad year then that would be annoying of course.

6 Yeah not sure about setting up your own business but if your course has a business section in it then why wouldn't it teach that? I've been studying at Thinkspace for a while and this is in no way some pitch for them. I'm bringing them up because I have access to business courses so there is all sorts of stuff you can learn about business. Whether it works is down to many factors.

7 Have no idea.

Anyway, I'm not commenting on what you said to be horrible or make you look bad. It's just I don't agree with your points and have experienced the total opposite to what you have written and I can bet you many others have as well. Usually the people that don't get anything out of a course are the people that put zero effort into the courses and they wonder why they don't learn anything or "get anything out of them". People should never think studying a course is some kind of magic bullet. It's not. However, there are tons of bad courses out there. So many. So I guess if you are gonna go down that road, then pick wisely. Same goes for picking YouTube channels 😂


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 16, 2021)

Thanks for sharing these super interesting points! @jononotbono


----------



## darkogav (Mar 16, 2021)

I personally believe a good education can only do good things and improve a person. But I guess anything can be self taught. (except medicine or engineering -- do you really want a self taught surgeon to operate on your kid? do you want a self taught engineer to build the apartment bulding you live in?)

re: composition -- I guess it depends how you define and frame composer. I get the impression composer is somehow tied to film and TV trends nowadays. And trends always change.

I think a composer should be able to compose anything that gets thrown at them. Look at someone like Jerry Goldsmith and type of films he made music for. He did everything from SciFi to Horror to Westerns.

I recall working with a theater company and watching the musical director work. It was amazing seeing the guy be able to play live on the spot behind the piano any Broadway song or standard anyone at rehearsals threw at him. I assume he learnt that in music school.


----------



## GtrString (Mar 16, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> Sorry man, but this just isn't true. I have learned more (in certain things) than any of the degrees I have studied by watching people's YouTube videos. In certain things. I'm just saying, there are some people out there that are teaching stuff that you won't find on a syllabus. I can actually name drop myself here actually. If you wanna learn how to program Cubase Macros and use Touchscreen commands, I made a few videos that wasn't taught in any of the degrees I've studied and studying. I was was even advised on my course to "stop spending time learning that stuff and spend my time getting better at writing music". Well, one video led me to taking a job in New York in a Mixing and Mastering studio. So, yeah, glad I didn't follow that advise and I'm glad I made at least some kind of video people have found useful. So much so, someone has told me they referenced a couple of videos I did on that in their degree thesis! 😂 I still find that wild.
> 
> Of course, there are exceptions to rules and there are also a massive amount of horrendous YouTube videos with people just talking bollocks and giving terrible advise but there are some that are amazing. Sounds exactly like a University. Some are great, with excellent tutors that all have real world experience that actually work in the industry. And then you have the rest that are full of inexperienced hacks, with zero credits, that have never amounted to more than playing cover gigs in their local towns or writing for local short films and think they know how to score feature films and therefore teaching terrible syllabuses. It's a minefield.
> 
> ...


I will still argue that a college degree is not for learning practical skills only. Yes, you can use YT for the odd skills research, but education it is not.

To be educated is a much bigger concept and suggests that you develop conversational skills in the field (proficient in concepts), that you can identify important and current issues in the music field, and that you can analyze and interpret skillfully with relevant criteria (critically).

That you won't learn on YT. It's all preferred and pre-selected principles by one author subject. Im not dissing YT, Im just saying that education it is not.

The division I did between can and can't was to illustrate that college ed is not really about your career, it's about becoming educated in the sense I wrote above. You can ofc take care of your career at uni, and the top 10% do, but most don't recognize that the studies are not building your career, and that you have to do that yourself. Hence they get a surprise after studies, when everything starts from scratch.

If you start studying thinking your career starts at day one (not after your degree), and treat your college ed like that, it would be an even stronger argument to enroll, because then you can make a lot better decisions while you are at uni. If you are not ready for that, I would advice to wait until you can see the need for education. You just have to understand what education is and is not to make an informed choice.

If not helpful, ok, I'll back. But I have been at uni for more than 20 years, taught hundreds of students, and have had conversations with music scholars from all over the world, so I'm not trying to pull your leg here.


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 16, 2021)

GtrString said:


> But I have been at uni for more than 20 years,


I'm curious, what do you mean by this? You have been studying degrees for 20 years? You are a tutor? And if you are a tutor, what have you been teaching? What University do you study or teach at?

Also, do you work in the film, TV and Games world? If so, what credits do you have? A link to your IMDB page would be great and as a tutor of 20 years you would likely have a through CV.




GtrString said:


> taught hundreds of students


Taught what? And have any of them gone anywhere?




GtrString said:


> and have had conversations with music scholars from all over the world


Many of us have.




GtrString said:


> so I'm not trying to pull your leg here.


I haven't once thought you are. I'm just trying to understand what it is you do and why you think "been at a University for 20 years" means anything. As always, context is everything.


----------



## JohnG (Mar 16, 2021)

I assume @GtrString is a professor? Or he's Norwegian and you can go to school indefinitely.

Regarding the original question, some things that help to compose (esp. for orchestra):


Knowing how to behave -- how to act and when to talk / not talk -- at a recording session;
Reading music;
Studying scores;
Having a mentor or teacher to point out things you don't notice on your own;
Having friends and teachers to motivate you when you don't feel like working;
Having friends who might hire you to orchestrate when they get a gig -- because they met you along the way and you're a good fellow;
Being able to play at least one instrument capably / professionally;
Knowing how to arrange and orchestrate someone else's music -- quickly;
Being able to conduct and instruct musicians playing for you quickly, accurately, using musical terms they will understand -- so you don't waste time or lose them because you only have them for a three hour recording session;
Having the experience of what makes a crowd go crazy.

Some stuff you can teach yourself, but if you look through this list ^^ you'll see that a lot of it is based on friends or learning to work _with other musicians._

If you're Prince or John Lennon or Beyoncé, ok, but I'm not and most people aren't.

You can theoretically acquire a lot of these skills outsside of a university or other structured program, but it takes a long, long time. It's really hard to support yourself and also learn all this stuff at a professional level.

Writing music is pretty hard, and opportunities few. If you get a gig and can't survive because you're unprepared, that's a shame.


----------



## Synetos (Mar 16, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> Formal music education sets you in a good position, but self-learning can do the trick, too!
> What do you think?



I was involved in every aspect of music in high school. I took 6 guitar lessons when I was 8, then quit and taught myself.

I had three singer songwriter concerts in auditoriums when I was a senior in high school, all my own songs. Then, I went off to college to study classical voice and composition.

College itself was great! I met my wife there. I ended up working for a recording studio learning engineering while in college. It was fun, and I learned a lot.

Studying music was a negative. I hated singing opera style, and it screwed up my ability to sing like a singer/songwriter for many years after that training.

I was super creative in songwriting in my teen years. Learning music theory and counterpoint, ruined my creativity. It made me see how "simple" my music was and therefore my own work seemed "less than".

There is also a bunch of snobbery in the music education system.

I ended up leaving the music program with a minor and got my degree in Philosophy. That has been much more useful than studying music at the academic level.

Today, I dont use much of what I learned in music school, at least not consciously. I do everything by ear. I do not write music on staff paper anymore, and I do not read music when I play live or in a band. I just need a lead sheet and I am good to go, or I play from memory.

If you want to be original, then don't study anything that doesn't enhance you own ears. If you want to sound like everyone else, then study music in school. All I learned in school was what I was doing "wrong". Yet, I had hundreds cheering at my concerts for the songs I wrote long before anyone told me how simple or "wrong" they were. Bullshit like that kills your creative spirit.

I do value training of playing an instrument. I think you can get some really good techniques and tips from that effort. But, music theory and classical anything is great if that is all you want to write. I do not.

I am a big believer in developing your natural abilities, not trying to be average at everything or be "well rounded". You don't need to understand the circle of fifths or counterpoint rules, or any of that crap. Just work with what is in your heart and what sounds good to your ears. Then, you will create "your" music. Perhaps you will give us something new.


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 16, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Or he's Norwegian and you can go to school indefinitely.


I'm going to start fabricating rumours. He's actually been spending 20 years in a Black Metal band burning churches to the ground. That's what he teaches at University. Apparently Norwegians do that a lot! 😂


----------



## GtrString (Mar 16, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I assume @GtrString is a professor? Or he's Norwegian and you can go to school indefinitely.


Haha, I've just retired as an associate professor, AND I'm a Norwegian, so you are absolutely right - also in your great post/ list (I'm not an orchestral composer).

Not so much Black Metal, though @jononotbono


----------



## SyMTiK (Mar 16, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Some stuff you can teach yourself, but if you look through this list ^^ you'll see that a lot of it is based on friends or learning to work _with other musicians._
> 
> If you're Prince or John Lennon or Beyoncé, ok, but I'm not and most people aren't.
> 
> ...


I grew up in a pretty small town in Rhode Island, and of my friends, I was one of only a handful of musicians, and I was the only one crazy enough to want to try and do it professionally.

Going to Berklee was a very important move for me and while I have only just graduated in December, I have had a mostly positive experience during my time there, and feel that I gained exactly the points you talked about. Berklee in particular I believe does a great job of providing opportunities for students to collaborate with others, and engage in professional settings like recording sessions, live performances, etc. While yes, you can go out and find your way into these positions without going to a school like Berklee, for some people like me who grew up in areas without a strong arts community, that is an experience that is very, very hard to come by. 

I am moving to LA in August, and because of going to Berklee, I will be moving out there to a community of friends and collaborators and opportunities that I wouldn't have if I hadn't gone. I don't think I could possibly have justified moving to LA without it.


----------



## GtrString (Mar 16, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> why you think "been at a University for 20 years" means anything. As always, context is everything.


I just wanted to qualify that my ramblings are based on experience, fwiw. Not saying I know any better, as mileage can vary a lot. Just trying to add something from my experience to the thread. It is after all, about education.


----------



## Consona (Mar 16, 2021)

No, but if you want to be really good at composing, you should study it. Not necessarily at school, but you should.

Transcribing, examining the scores, reading about music, instruments, watching videos, etc.


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 16, 2021)

GtrString said:


> I just wanted to qualify that my ramblings are based on experience, fwiw. Not saying I know any better, as mileage can vary a lot. Just trying to add something from my experience to the thread. It is after all, about education.


Of course man. I'm glad. I hate people posting things when they have no experience with what they are talking about. So, about the Churches 😂


----------



## GtrString (Mar 16, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> Of course man. I'm glad. I hate people posting things when they have no experience with what they are talking about. So, about the Churches 😂


You must be mistaken, I know nothing about Norwegian churches of hell, where musicians bathe in blood, and set fire to their instruments while participating in hedonist orgies.. nothing!!


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 16, 2021)

GtrString said:


> You must be mistaken, I know nothing about Norwegian churches of hell, where musicians bathe in blood, and set fire to their instruments while participating in hedonist orgies.. nothing!!


I’ve just been working for someone that is quite big in the metal world and some of the stuff I’ve heard of European metal bands getting up to has been rather amusing. Nothing as sick as say, being in a cult on the Isle Of Wight, but still very grim nonetheless! 😂


----------



## darkogav (Mar 16, 2021)

These sort of threads almost always take a self explanatory bent and turn into people subtly justifying choices they made in their past.

Music is a humanity -- so the simple question comes down to -- do you need to go to a university to study a humanity? You could just keep going to a library and keep checking out books and reading them. Will you learn the same things? Sure. Maybe? But will you learn to understand them in a different way than you would have normally approached them? That's what studying a humanity in a university will give you. That's why they will make you read Barthes and Lacan and write long essays to explain yourself on how you interpret things like media, music, film through their theories. You will not learn to use the latest features of Pro Tools , as it's very simple to read the manual. I think this sort of tool is probably even more important to someone working in the creative industries as you are required and expected to come up with very creative solutions compared to everyone else that is just consuming media.

If you agree that your music is an extension and mirror of your musical tastes and the records you grew up with -- you will only ever approach things from those musical styles and preferences. You will never really expand beyond until you are forced to discover something new.


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 16, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> Of course man. I'm glad. I hate people posting things when they have no experience with what they are talking about.


That must be me, then! :D


----------



## jononotbono (Mar 16, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> That must be me, then! :D


How is that? What have I missed? 😂


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 16, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> How is that? What have I missed? 😂


I created and posted a video on my opinion (as a discussion starter so to say) about formal music education. Without me having studied or taught at a music institution, or even being a professional composer yet *whoops*.

I'm still glad that I did it, because I got fascinating answers, great insights and a valuable cross-section of the opinions within this composer community regarding this topic.


----------



## GtrString (Mar 16, 2021)

darkogav said:


> These sort of threads almost always take a self explanatory bent and turn into people subtly justifying choices they made in their past.
> 
> Music is a humanity -- so the simple question comes down to -- do you need to go to a university to study a humanity? You could just keep going to a library and keep checking out books and reading them. Will you learn the same things? Sure. Maybe? But will you learn to understand them in a different way than you would have normally approached them? That's what studying a humanity in a university will give you. That's why they will make you read Barthes and Lacan and write long essays to explain yourself on how you interpret things like media, music, film through their theories. You will not learn to use the latest features of Pro Tools , as it's very simple to read the manual. I think this sort of tool is probably even more important to someone working in the creative industries as you are required and expected to come up with very creative solutions compared to everyone else that is just consuming media.
> 
> If you agree that your music is an extension and mirror of your musical tastes and the records you grew up with -- you will only ever approach things from those musical styles and preferences. You will never really expand beyond until you are forced to discover something new.


To be fair, there is a lot of different subjects at uni, including some Pro Tools classes, but you are right, music is about enculturation, so they may challenge you to analyze your Pro Tool's mixing process with Lacan'ian post-psychoanalytic concepts, to see where you're at


----------



## youngpokie (Mar 16, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> Formal music education sets you in a good position, but self-learning can do the trick, too!
> What do you think?



I find it so ironic that your video defines "education" but doesn't define a "composer".

Anyone who has a PC, software and watched some YouTube videos is a composer. You don't need any education for that. And to become a professional composer, networking skills are more important than any music education.


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 16, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I find it so ironic that your video defines "education" but doesn't define a "composer".
> 
> Anyone who has a PC, software and watched some YouTube videos is a composer. You don't need any education for that.


As I mentioned in the video later on, basically I mean getting good enough at the craft + finding an opening into the industry in order to be able to earn money with the music we write on a regular basis. Perhaps I should have been clearer on my definition for the purpose of the argumentation right from the beginning of the video. Not sure why it would be _ironic_ tbh.


----------



## youngpokie (Mar 16, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> As I mentioned in the video later on, basically I mean getting good enough at the craft + finding an opening into the industry in order to be able to earn money with the music we write on a regular basis.


Yes, you used a lot of vague buzzwords like "getting good", "working hard", "diligently" and so on. 

How do you know if you're getting good?


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 16, 2021)

Every now and then, I book calls with professionals who give me honest feedback (and some more guidance). What you're tackling there is an important point: Honest and good feedback by someone who has the authority to give it. I'd encourage self-learners to do that, so they have an idea if they are on a right path


----------



## JohnG (Mar 16, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> How do you know if you're getting good?


your mom / boyfriend / girlfriend. You can count on them for objectivity.


----------



## darkogav (Mar 16, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> Every now and then, I book calls with professionals who give me honest feedback (and some more guidance). What you're tackling there is an important point: Honest and good feedback by someone who has the authority to give it. I'd encourage self-learners to do that, so they have an idea if they are on a right path


I think you don't have enough illustrations in that video. Need to see more drawings to take it seriously.


----------



## Fidelity (Mar 16, 2021)

JohnG said:


> your mom / boyfriend / girlfriend. You can count on them for objectivity.


Your dad's ex-wife / your ex boyfriend / ex girlfriend. FTFY


----------



## lgmcben (Mar 16, 2021)

From a completely opposite point of view. As a professional software engineer venturing into music composition:

1. I love videogame music. Dreams of composing some but knows nothing. Can't play any instruments.

2. Well, I need to take some online courses then.

3. Took some courses. In (almost) every course I took, instructor said something like: "but you don't have to follow any of these rules". WTF. In software engineering if you break even a single rule your software won't even run.

(Well I remember one of them: "Jack Vaughan" on Udemy. He's a very good teacher)

4. One of the instrustor teach me about avoiding "dissonant"

5. Wait... that word sounds familar...:

Castlevania: Harmony of *Dissonance*


(it's a freaking name of one of my favorite game which I think has some kick-ass tracks not found anywhere else)

6. So one of my favorite tracks are tracks that broke this "dissonant" rules?

7. Then there's even a wikipedia page for this:




__





I–V–vi–IV progression - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





What the fuck? This, for me, is the most bullshit point. How can this work if your melody is doing something else? I mean, it's your freaking song isn't it? Not someone else's song. If you're gonna *compose* a song then why put it in a jail of I–V–vi–IV ? This one is beyond me. (ok I admit maybe I'm just a noob who don't know how to use this thing yet)

Disclaimer: I don't have any ill intention towards this chord progression stuff or anyone, ever. Just want to share some different perspective from someone coming from a profession that relies heavily on logic. I've struggled through many courses trying to make sense out of it. Evenant, Thinkspace, Udemy. The most useful thing I got out of them all is the frequency spectrum. Just the fact that I need to 'paint' my song in different frequency ranges. Anything else is a rule that can be broken, so basically not a rule, just a guideline.

In the end I forgot it all when composing and just go by ears. More fun.

I wonder if the stuff they teach in college is any different?


----------



## youngpokie (Mar 16, 2021)

zedmaster said:


> Every now and then, I book calls with professionals who give me honest feedback





zedmaster said:


> feedback by someone who has the authority to give it. I'd encourage self-learners to do that, so they have an idea if they are on a right path


Somehow I get the feeling that people who you think have the authority to give you feedback on your music are not the people who teach it, but those who have been quite good at networking, monetizing YouTube and self-promotion (nice video, btw!)...

And you know what? As long as the definition is akin to "anyone who has a camera is a photographer", you're totally right!!


----------



## youngpokie (Mar 16, 2021)

lgmcben said:


> .. If you're gonna *compose* a song then why put it in a jail of I–V–vi–IV ? This one is beyond me. (ok I admit maybe I'm just a noob who don't know how to use this thing yet)
> ....


In formal education that nobody needs to be a composer, they teach that this is one of several core patterns, which also happens to loop seamlessly because of how it's put together. They also teach how to modify it to create this or that style, how to lengthen or shorten it, the many different ways to orchestrate it and how to write melody on top of it...


----------



## JohnG (Mar 16, 2021)

lgmcben said:


> In the end I forgot it all when composing and just go by ears. More fun.


Well, if you were to learn harmony, you could quickly -- very quickly -- work out how the pieces you like are put together, dissonance and all. Moreover, that same set of skills is indispensable in converting your own "30-second-miracle" into a longer piece, or even extend it to a score.

It's impossible without some training -- whether from school or otherwise -- to meet the deadlines of a TV show, movie, or a game. You can't do all that 'by ear' in the amount of time available. Besides, school can be fun. Meet friends, date people, stay up late talking about music.

That said, if you're just writing for fun, naturally you should do whatever you want.


----------



## Seycara (Mar 16, 2021)

Optional but it helps.

I'm in my final years of medical school going into emergency medicine and also work as a professional composer after hours. I previously did a B.A. in composition & orchestration focusing on traditional orchestration and music theory. These days I make enough through streaming and video game work to pay off my tuition and living expenses.

It's possible to do both if you really want to, but I don't sleep too much on the average day.


----------



## zedmaster (Mar 16, 2021)

Seycara said:


> Optional but it helps.
> 
> I'm in my final years of medical school going into emergency medicine and also work as a professional composer after hours. I previously did a B.A. in composition & orchestration focusing on traditional orchestration and music theory. These days I make enough through streaming and video game work to pay off my tuition and living expenses.
> 
> It's possible to do both if you really want to, but I don't sleep too much on the average day.


Cool to see another (soon-to-be) doctor here! :D Guess we're approaching it the other way round.


----------



## FrankieD (Mar 16, 2021)

Retired doctor here, it took me 20 years to pay off my student loans and now I'm trying to do composing full time. I should have gone to music college instead of getting a BS in Biochemistry...lol.

Musical training: 1 yr with a USC Film Music professor and a specialist certificate in music from Berklee online, where I took Music for Film, Orchestration, Producing with Protools and two quarters of Music Theory. All online. Which is suboptimal.


----------



## Hadrondrift (Mar 16, 2021)

YouTube and formal "dry" music theory are not completely mutually exclusive. On this occasion I would like to refer to the excellent series by Christopher Brellochs: Dr. B Music Theory
Basic university level scholarship for free.


----------



## sourcefor (Mar 16, 2021)

Yeah, I went to a year of music college when I was 18. I auditioned for Berkeley college but never went! I quit music college after a year as I didnt think I was learning anything! I wish I would have stayed and went on to berklee! After years of playing music professionally, I started taking classes online to refresh my memory and have been doing it ever since! I did it mostly so I could walk the walk and talk the talk with other musicians. Being a drummer, I wanted to learn piano so I could play and write music faster! I took theory classes so I could understand what I was playing and writing. I was working for Cirque du soleil for years before learning any of this and as I learned more my music got better beacuase I learned the rules and broke them! I think it is important to at least know something about music and an instrument. I feel like I’m better for it! And now I am addicted to learning!


----------



## dcoscina (Oct 4, 2021)

GNP said:


> It depends on what you wanna do. I went to Berklee, yes. It has made me learn useful stuff like counterpoint, and also widened my Jazz vocabulary horizons. But I think all of this stuff can be done on your own, and quite frankly, to be a film composer, I don't think formal education is really a must. There are lots of dropouts and self-learned composers who are successful out there.


Agreed. For film music or media scoring it’s not crucial. For concert writing or jazz charts, it kinda helps to have studied in some way shape or form.


----------



## dcoscina (Oct 4, 2021)

Like most things there is no one solution. The same shoe doesn’t fit everyone. University is great for learning fundamentals and then pursuing a masters or going on to teach. I think college (up here in Canada they are different) is more practical and focussed. Less theoretical and analytical. 

I agree that studying with someone, whether it’s in a formal setting or private lessons is very helpful because one needs feedback- and also how to learn to take critical feedback. There are tons of online courses now that offer this which is great.


----------



## Voider (Oct 4, 2021)

This is not even a question, there are plenty of famous composers out there who made it even to the absolute top without having a college degree. Degrees are necessary for jobs where the employees can see on paper what they can expect from one, that's not the case for artistic jobs. We have portfolios with works, creations and projects that show off what one can expect from us. Two completely different worlds.


----------

