# Gotham Needs A Hero - a tribute to Hans Zimmer



## mushanga

Hi guys,

This is the first time I have posted one of my tracks. I hope the title sums up the kind of style and colour I have gone for ...



Would love to hear any thoughts and comments!

Thanks in advance


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## R.Cato

*Re: Gotham Needs A Hero*

I like this kind of music, so I enjoyed your piece. Sometimes I missed some variation, seemed a little bit too repetive to me.

Through listenting to it I waited for some kind of a big heroic start, but it unfortunately didn't happen. As you said it is your attempt at writing an orchestral-electronic inception like music and I think you did quite well.


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## mushanga

*Re: Gotham Needs A Hero*



R.Cato @ Wed 10 Aug said:


> I like this kind of music, so I enjoyed your piece. Sometimes I missed some variation, seemed a little bit too repetive to me.
> 
> Through listenting to it I waited for some kind of a big heroic start, but it unfortunately didn't happen. As you said it is your attempt at writing an orchestral-electronic inception like music and I think you did quite well.



Hi and thanks for your message! Yeah I can understand where you're coming from - this was written and structured for use by a library company so I had to ensure the music wasn't overly developing at any given point.

Nonetheless, glad you enjoyed it :D


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## zacnelson

Hi! I'd love to know what sample libraries you used for the different instruments, I'm still new to all of this stuff and your track gives a good taste of a variety of sounds and it each instrument has a very clear sound, a good basis to evaluate the quality of the libraries. Some demos have so much going on that it's hard to judge the individual sounds themselves.

Also, are you interested in any constructive suggestions? If so, let me know I have a small idea that could add something


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## Mr Greg G

Nice track you put up here. I like the sound you pick for the high strings a lot! What is the patch you use (0:50 to the end)?


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## dedersen

*Re: Gotham Needs A Hero*

I quite enjoyed this piece. You seem to have a good feel for the "less is more" mantra. Each element has a clearly defined space and purpose, other than just making everything bigger. I agree with the comment that the piece might need a tad more variation, it sounds a bit like you took the "full" structure and just decomposed it into smaller sections. I liked the main melody line, very "inception"-ish, which was obviously what you were aiming for.

The short string articulations are marvellous. Are those LASS?


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## hbuus

This was enjoyable, thanks for sharing.
I'd speed it up a little if I were you.

Best,
Henrik


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## mushanga

zacnelson @ Sat 13 Aug said:


> Hi! I'd love to know what sample libraries you used for the different instruments, I'm still new to all of this stuff and your track gives a good taste of a variety of sounds and it each instrument has a very clear sound, a good basis to evaluate the quality of the libraries. Some demos have so much going on that it's hard to judge the individual sounds themselves.
> 
> Also, are you interested in any constructive suggestions? If so, let me know I have a small idea that could add something



Hi Zac - thanks for your comments. I am by all means open to feedback/constructive suggestions. For this track I mixed LASS with Symphobia combined with SD2 percussion and some custom Omnisphere patches.

Thanks again for stopping by!


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## mushanga

Mr Pringles @ Sat 13 Aug said:


> Nice track you put up here. I like the sound you pick for the high strings a lot! What is the patch you use (0:50 to the end)?



Thanks for your kind words - I believe those are LASS legato violins I and II playing in octaves. I tend to load up the divisi multis as to my ears they generate a richer timbre compared to the full ensemble patches. I also doubled the string melody with LASS's Legato Sordinos - that library totally rocks!


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## mushanga

*Re: Gotham Needs A Hero*



dedersen @ Sat 13 Aug said:


> I quite enjoyed this piece. You seem to have a good feel for the "less is more" mantra. Each element has a clearly defined space and purpose, other than just making everything bigger. I agree with the comment that the piece might need a tad more variation, it sounds a bit like you took the "full" structure and just decomposed it into smaller sections. I liked the main melody line, very "inception"-ish, which was obviously what you were aiming for.
> 
> The short string articulations are marvellous. Are those LASS?



Hi dederson - thanks for your comments. Yes the short strings are LASS spiccatos - they really are my go to spics for achieving that Zimmer-like sound.


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## mushanga

hbuus @ Sat 13 Aug said:


> This was enjoyable, thanks for sharing.
> I'd speed it up a little if I were you.
> 
> Best,
> Henrik



Hi Henrik - thanks for your suggestion. I agree it could work really well if sped up a bit, although it was written with a specific length in mind.


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## zacnelson

My suggestion is you should try making the non-synth instruments sound less `quantised', at the moment the track sounds like it was written in rather than played. If you played the parts in and left it a bit looser it might sound more natural and less obviously sampled.


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## mushanga

zacnelson @ Sun 14 Aug said:


> My suggestion is you should try making the non-synth instruments sound less `quantised', at the moment the track sounds like it was written in rather than played. If you played the parts in and left it a bit looser it might sound more natural and less obviously sampled.



Hi Zac - yeah I could perhaps loosen up the spics (those were the only things quantised as far as I can remember) but I think they work well as they are.


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## RyBen

*Re: Gotham Needs A Hero*

For a Zimmer style piece it's not bad. I would just focus a little more on development. One good thing I can say about Zimmer's approach is that he does indeed develop the piece, even if it simply means introducing instruments sequentially. Your piece seems a little static in terms of development. You leave little headroom dynamic-wise. Even look at the visualization of frequencies in soundcloud and you can see that there's little place to go, but really this depends on the context in which the cue would be used. Sometimes you don't need development.

My conclusion: It's good enough for Hollywood.


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## mushanga

*Re: Gotham Needs A Hero*



RyBen @ Tue 16 Aug said:


> For a Zimmer style piece it's not bad. I would just focus a little more on development. One good thing I can say about Zimmer's approach is that he does indeed develop the piece, even if it simply means introducing instruments sequentially. Your piece seems a little static in terms of development. You leave little headroom dynamic-wise. Even look at the visualization of frequencies in soundcloud and you can see that there's little place to go, but really this depends on the context in which the cue would be used. Sometimes you don't need development.
> 
> My conclusion: It's good enough for Hollywood.



Hi RyBen - thanks for the feedback (this forum rules!)...

I agree with you re: development and dynamics (the track was heavily compressed as the waveform on the SoundCloud track demonstrates) - but as I said earlier in the thread, this track was structured for use by a production library company and so different aspects have to be taken into consideration..


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## Consona

*Re: Gotham Needs A Hero*

I really like this composition. I agree with blendingbone, "_Not overly complex, not boring._" Do you plan to extend this composition or make a new one? You should make it longer, seriously. :D 

My note regarding the style: I would replace tribal sounding drums (1:07-1:22) with some electronic/metalic/synthetic sounding ones. Bongos don't fit the Batman composition, imo.

edit: I would use some distortion plugin on hi-hat. To make it sound more like this> http://youtu.be/r67KcFABTwg?hd=1&t=2m32s


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## Gabriel Oliveira

really, really good! 

symphobia brass?


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## spoon

Loving it. Especially when the brass enters, nice melody!


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## mushanga

*Re: Gotham Needs A Hero*

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions guys! Much appreciated and all taken on board 

*@Consona* I hadn't planned on extending this piece..perhaps a possibility in the future  .. I see what you are saying about the tribal drums, although I didn't want to rip Zimmer off completely, but rather add some Zimmer flavour to the composition =o 

*@Gabriel Oliveira* Yep.. Symphobia 1 brass !

*@spoon* Thanks mate !


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## mushanga

Hans and co. - would love your thoughts..?!


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## Christof

Good production.
A bit too dry, I am missing some space and air in the overall mix.

Why are so many composers trying to achieve the HZ sound?
Do they think this is the only way to gain attention?
There is only one HZ, and everyone else who is trying to sound like HZ is just a weak copy.
You should try to be the best orchestranova here instead of being Hz copy #5298.

I understand that we all are influenced by his way to create new styles and sounds, but his trend settings should not prevent us from writing our own personal music.
Sure, we all have musical idols, John Williams wrote in the style of Dvorak, Korngold or Tchaikowsky and many others, Dvorak was influenced by Schumann who adored Mozart who was an admirer of Haydn and so on...HZ sometimes uses Morricone or Mahler or Mozart styles in his scores, but always very intentionally.
But all those composers had the ability to create an own custom handwriting, based on their idols.
I am fighting against this myself, hard to be unique these days!!
This is no criticism, it is just a fact.

Christof


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## mark812

Christof @ Thu Oct 25 said:


> Good production.
> A bit too dry, I am missing some space and air in the overall mix.
> 
> Why are so many composers trying to achieve the HZ sound?
> Do they think this is the only way to gain attention?
> There is only one HZ, and everyone else who is trying to sound like HZ is just a weak copy.
> You should try to be the best orchestranova here instead of being Hz copy #5298.
> 
> I understand that we all are influenced by his way to create new styles and sounds, but his trend settings should not prevent us from writing our own personal music.
> Sure, we all have musical idols, John Williams wrote in the style of Dvorak, Korngold or Tchaikowsky and many others, Dvorak was influenced by Schumann who adored Mozart who was an admirer of Haydn and so on...HZ sometimes uses Morricone or Mahler or Mozart styles in his scores, but always very intentionally.
> But all those composers had the ability to create an own custom handwriting, based on their idols.
> I am fighting against this myself, hard to be unique these days!!
> This is no criticism, it is just a fact.
> 
> Christof



+1

Couldn't agree more.


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## germancomponist

I think the most important thing was not mentioned here: Hans, and also all other film composers, write to a film. 

I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? Sure, it is very easy to copy a groove, a section arrangement, but for what reason?

I never would do this! 

Ok, I see how the world is ticking. All people are copying the others, to be sure to be involved in the actually trend... . Is this good? 

It's boring and pathetic at the same time! 

...... o=< o/~


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## mushanga

germancomponist @ Thu 25 Oct said:


> ...I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? ... I never would do this! ... It's boring and pathetic at the same time!



I think people here are being a bit harsh on me. This track was actually written for a production library company who asked for a piece in the style of Hans's Inception and Dark Knight scores. So to answer your question, Gunther, this was why I wrote this track.

On another note, when clients are asking for music in Hans's epic style, whether ideal or not, commercial composers who need to make a living have no choice but to remain as competitive as possible to get the gigs! And there is nothing to be ashamed of in that. Do you think that I can only write (and only want to write) in this style and am not trying to develop my own sound? Of course I am, but this is something that can take years to achieve! Check out my Soundcloud page whilst you're there - I like to think that not all my tracks can be considered an attempt to sound like Hans?!

Do you know how many TV documentaries I have worked on that are temp'ed with Zimmer's (and Remote Control's) scores? The last gig I had was spilling with Inception and Dark Knight cues...so forgive me for developing a skill which pleases my clients and in turn pays my rent. The fact that this is the sound they are after and think will best fit their picture is an entirely separate and equally debatable issue.

Just my 2 cents


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## Lex

orchestranova @ Thu Oct 25 said:


> germancomponist @ Thu 25 Oct said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? ... I never would do this! ... It's boring and pathetic at the same time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that I can only write (and only want to write) in this style and am not trying to develop my own sound? Of course I am, but this is something that can take years to achieve! Check out my Soundcloud page whilst you're there - I like to think that not all my tracks can be considered an attempt to sound like Hans?!
Click to expand...


And yet, this is the first track you post over here?

alex


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## mushanga

Lex @ Thu 25 Oct said:


> orchestranova @ Thu Oct 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> germancomponist @ Thu 25 Oct said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? ... I never would do this! ... It's boring and pathetic at the same time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that I can only write (and only want to write) in this style and am not trying to develop my own sound? Of course I am, but this is something that can take years to achieve! Check out my Soundcloud page whilst you're there - I like to think that not all my tracks can be considered an attempt to sound like Hans?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet, this is the first track you post over here?
> 
> alex
Click to expand...


..and? What's your point? This was one of the first tracks I originally posted on my Soundcloud page..check out the original version if you're unconvinced. I brought it up here again because I was aware Hans has been frequenting these forums lately. Jeez...I just wanted some feedback?!


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## Darthmorphling

orchestranova @ Thu Oct 25 said:


> Lex @ Thu 25 Oct said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orchestranova @ Thu Oct 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> germancomponist @ Thu 25 Oct said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? ... I never would do this! ... It's boring and pathetic at the same time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that I can only write (and only want to write) in this style and am not trying to develop my own sound? Of course I am, but this is something that can take years to achieve! Check out my Soundcloud page whilst you're there - I like to think that not all my tracks can be considered an attempt to sound like Hans?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet, this is the first track you post over here?
> 
> alex
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ..and? What's your point? This was one of the first tracks I originally posted on my Soundcloud page..check out the original version if you're unconvinced. I brought it up here again because I was aware Hans has been frequenting these forums lately. Jeez...I just wanted some feedback?!
Click to expand...


I've noticed a sharp change in the tone of this forum. I started here in April and I do not recall all the negativity that seems to be present these past few weeks. It's one thing to critique someone's work with respect, and another thing to be a douche. I'm just curious if many of the pros here have ever had to work a normal job. In the real world, your boss asks you to do something. If you want to feed your family, you do it. If you don't, your kids do not eat. Artistic people tend to think that everyting they do has to be original and if someone writes in the style of another composer then they are wannabes and are responsible for the downfall of the composing world. Maybe you should realize that music changes and you should be able to change with it.

I've noticed that my fifth graders tend to treat people like this when they want to make themselves feel better about their own shortcomings.

I liked the piece and agree that it could use some variation, but since you wrote this for a library I can see why you chose the route you took. I hope the negativity doesn't discourage you from posting more.


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## scottbuckley

Darthmorphling @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Artistic people tend to think that everyting they do has to be original and if someone writes in the style of another composer then they are wannabes and are responsible for the downfall of the composing world. Maybe you should realize that music changes and you should be able to change with it.



It's funny though - I found that my time as a pro was spent appeasing others (bosses, music supervisors) by essentially copying (to a certain degree) other composer's styles, just so I could put food on the table. And I'm willing to bet that a few others around here have done the same. But let's just face it - everyone rips everyone else off to a degree... that's just the nature of music composition - we are the sum of our listening experiences. Good musical ideas from prominent artists like Hans are like beneficially mutated genes flowing through a population... given enough time everyone has a bit in their genome. I like to think of pieces like these as gene sequencing (lol) projects... 

Thanks for posting the piece - I really enjoyed it! I think most of the points I wanted to make have been touched on... how convenient .

-s


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## Resoded

Orchestranova, I'm not sure how long you've been around to hear this, but there are quite a few people who hate the epic style here one this forum, and are annoyed by people trying to emulate it. Sometimes these people step over the line, and this is one of those cases.

Let me first say that I enjoyed your track and I'm looking forwards to hear more Now:



germancomponist @ 25th October 2012 said:


> I think the most important thing was not mentioned here: Hans, and also all other film composers, write to a film.
> 
> I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? Sure, it is very easy to copy a groove, a section arrangement, but for what reason?
> 
> I never would do this!
> 
> Ok, I see how the world is ticking. All people are copying the others, to be sure to be involved in the actually trend... . Is this good?
> 
> It's boring and pathetic at the same time!
> 
> ...... o=< o/~



Stupid, boring and pathetic are strong words. If you wish to have an intellectual exchange with people concerning this topic, I suggest you create your own topic and leave out those words. If you wish to complain, I suggest you create your own topic.

Saying things like this about someone elses piece, in their own topic. Gunther, is this a proud moment for you?



Christof @ 25th October 2012 said:


> Good production.
> A bit too dry, I am missing some space and air in the overall mix.
> 
> Why are so many composers trying to achieve the HZ sound?
> Do they think this is the only way to gain attention?
> There is only one HZ, and everyone else who is trying to sound like HZ is just a weak copy.
> You should try to be the best orchestranova here instead of being Hz copy #5298.



Because clients may ask for it?



Lex @ 26th October 2012 said:


> orchestranova @ Thu Oct 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> germancomponist @ Thu 25 Oct said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? ... I never would do this! ... It's boring and pathetic at the same time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that I can only write (and only want to write) in this style and am not trying to develop my own sound? Of course I am, but this is something that can take years to achieve! Check out my Soundcloud page whilst you're there - I like to think that not all my tracks can be considered an attempt to sound like Hans?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet, this is the first track you post over here?
> 
> alex
Click to expand...


Your point being?


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## germancomponist

Resoded @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Orchestranova, I'm not sure how long you've been around to hear this, but there are quite a few people who hate the epic style here one this forum, and are annoyed by people trying to emulate it. Sometimes these people step over the line, and this is one of those cases.
> 
> Let me first say that I enjoyed your track and I'm looking forwards to hear more Now:
> 
> 
> 
> germancomponist @ 25th October 2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the most important thing was not mentioned here: Hans, and also all other film composers, write to a film.
> 
> I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? Sure, it is very easy to copy a groove, a section arrangement, but for what reason?
> 
> I never would do this!
> 
> Ok, I see how the world is ticking. All people are copying the others, to be sure to be involved in the actually trend... . Is this good?
> 
> It's boring and pathetic at the same time!
> 
> ...... o=< o/~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stupid, boring and pathetic are strong words. If you wish to have an intellectual exchange with people concerning this topic, I suggest you create your own topic and leave out those words. If you wish to complain, I suggest you create your own topic.
> 
> Saying things like this about someone elses piece, in their own topic. Gunther, is this a proud moment for you?
Click to expand...


Have you read what I wrote???

*"Ok, I see how the world is ticking. All people are copying the others, to be sure to be involved in the actually trend... . Is this good? It's boring and pathetic at the same time!"*

I am talking about this trend, not about orchestranova's piece here!  

And: Who is hating that "Epic" style?


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## Resoded

germancomponist @ 26th October 2012 said:


> Resoded @ Fri Oct 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Orchestranova, I'm not sure how long you've been around to hear this, but there are quite a few people who hate the epic style here one this forum, and are annoyed by people trying to emulate it. Sometimes these people step over the line, and this is one of those cases.
> 
> Let me first say that I enjoyed your track and I'm looking forwards to hear more Now:
> 
> 
> 
> germancomponist @ 25th October 2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the most important thing was not mentioned here: Hans, and also all other film composers, write to a film.
> 
> I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? Sure, it is very easy to copy a groove, a section arrangement, but for what reason?
> 
> I never would do this!
> 
> Ok, I see how the world is ticking. All people are copying the others, to be sure to be involved in the actually trend... . Is this good?
> 
> It's boring and pathetic at the same time!
> 
> ...... o=< o/~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stupid, boring and pathetic are strong words. If you wish to have an intellectual exchange with people concerning this topic, I suggest you create your own topic and leave out those words. If you wish to complain, I suggest you create your own topic.
> 
> Saying things like this about someone elses piece, in their own topic. Gunther, is this a proud moment for you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you read what I wrote???
> 
> *"Ok, I see how the world is ticking. All people are copying the others, to be sure to be involved in the actually trend... . Is this good? It's boring and pathetic at the same time!"*
> 
> I am talking about this trend, not about orchestranova's piece here!
> 
> And: Who is hating that "Epic" style?
Click to expand...




germancomponist @ 26th October 2012 said:


> I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements



Is there any room for misinterpreting this sentence?


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## germancomponist

Resoded @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> germancomponist @ 26th October 2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any room for misinterpreting this sentence?
Click to expand...


It seems like it is.

I wrote "I think it is stupid..." and I wrote not "orchestranova, you are stupid....".


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## Lex

orchestranova @ Fri Oct 26 said:


> Lex @ Thu 25 Oct said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orchestranova @ Thu Oct 25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> germancomponist @ Thu 25 Oct said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I think it is very stupid to try to copy his arrangements e.t.c. . For what? ... I never would do this! ... It's boring and pathetic at the same time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that I can only write (and only want to write) in this style and am not trying to develop my own sound? Of course I am, but this is something that can take years to achieve! Check out my Soundcloud page whilst you're there - I like to think that not all my tracks can be considered an attempt to sound like Hans?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And yet, this is the first track you post over here?
> 
> alex
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ..and? What's your point? This was one of the first tracks I originally posted on my Soundcloud page..check out the original version if you're unconvinced. I brought it up here again because I was aware Hans has been frequenting these forums lately. Jeez...I just wanted some feedback?!
Click to expand...


No point, you r right. 
Just think that even when you have to write in a certain style developed by someone else in order to get payed, you can still bring in something new and personal within those boundaries set by a client. 

Alex


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## Consona

I cannot believe what I'm reading here. Please be open-minded and supportive.

It's completely natural to imitate the style you like. And people who don't like HZ's style imitate the style they like. And there is nothing like pure originality. Every piece of art is original (or unoriginal, depends on your point of view) to some point. And sometimes making a good imitation is much harder than create something "original". Everything you do is a consequence. There is no idea that comes out of thin air. Art is a continuity. Every copy brings something new. To imitate is also to learn. And every person has it's own periods in his work and after some years the one who imitated may be the one who is praised for his original approaches. Although I still somewhat miss a meaning of what _original_ really is.

So please be open-minded and supportive.

When I don't like some composition I think it is my problem and not problem of the composition.


I think *orchestranova* made amazing job with this piece. (Yea I used word _amazing_ and I mean it because I enjoyed his composition immensely.)


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## mushanga

Consona @ Fri 26 Oct said:


> I cannot believe what I'm reading here. Please be open-minded and supportive...



Thank you for your support and for such kind words.



Lex @ Fri 26 Oct said:


> Just think that even when you have to write in a certain style developed by someone else in order to get payed, you can still bring in something new and personal within those boundaries set by a client.
> 
> Alex



Hi Alex - I'd like to think that I am doing this already..?! I think that happens naturally..


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## Ganvai

Hey orchestranova,

I don't want to offend you, but creating your own style in such a complex field like orchestration and filmmusic, might take a little bit more time. 

To get me right, I think you have your own style and others have them to, but it's very difficult to shape this style so that it sounds really like you and others can recognize this. 

You have reached your very own style, when it stops sounding like HZ, but sounds like you. 

So at the end I have to say that this piece is a very good track and works very well has HZ-remake-copy-like.


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## rickholets

Hi orchestranova,

I thought this was well done. Really like your bass synth work here, and the overall production level was good.

One critique I might have is that at 1:24 when you transition the theme into your violins, I thought it sounded a bit thin and lacked the emotion I was hoping to feel there. I wonder if doubling that melody line in a higher register would help the piece in that section?

Regarding the other comments, I think you have hit a sensitive area with some other members because with Hans lurking around, it could be seen that you are making a rather shameless grab for his attention.

My opinion? It maybe wasn't the most dignifying thing you could have done, but eh...the world keeps spinning.


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## Christof

I did not know that you have been asked to write a piece in HZ style.
In this context I think it is quite good, looking forward anyway to hearing your own music!
Keep it up!
Christof


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## mushanga

Ganvai @ Fri 26 Oct said:


> Hey orchestranova,
> 
> I don't want to offend you, but creating your own style in such a complex field like orchestration and filmmusic, might take a little bit more time...
> 
> ...So at the end I have to say that this piece is a very good track and works very well has HZ-tribute.



Hi Ganvai - thank you for your comments. I never implied that I have fully achieved my own style yet by any means. All I said was that when imitating another composer's style, one can't help but bring in their own "personality" to a degree.




rickholets @ Fri 26 Oct said:


> Hi orchestranova,
> 
> I thought this was well done. Really like your bass synth work here, and the overall production level was good.
> 
> One critique I might have is that at 1:24 when you transition the theme into your violins, I thought it sounded a bit thin and lacked the emotion I was hoping to feel there. I wonder if doubling that melody line in a higher register would help the piece in that section?
> 
> Regarding the other comments, I think you have hit a sensitive area with some other members because with Hans lurking around, it could be seen that you are making a rather shameless grab for his attention.
> 
> My opinion? It maybe wasn't the most dignifying thing you could have done, but eh...the world keeps spinning.



Hi Rick - thanks for your suggestions. Will take them onboard when composing tracks of a similar timbre/orchestration in the future.

As for your last comment - I think this is a bit harsh. There is nothing audacious about posting this track and wanting Hans to have a listen and give me some feedback. People in this forum really do get upset over the most trivial of things...!




Christof @ Fri 26 Oct said:


> I did not know that you have been asked to write a piece in HZ style.
> In this context I think it is quite good, looking forward anyway to hearing your own music!
> Keep it up!
> Christof



Hi Christof - cheers for the feedback. Oh and btw - this is my own music


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## gwillimw

Great work! Right away I was thrilled by the orchestral colours used in this, and I really enjoy the percussion work. I'm certainly no expert on this, but the only thing I would consider exploring more is the spatial placement/panning/reverb depth on the track, to make it feel a bit more live and give those instruments a bit more breathing room. Although, as a library track, perhaps the more compressed/full-out approach is appropriate?

Either way, I enjoyed listening to this - the choices of melody and supporting chords has a great tension/release effect. I look forward to hearing more of your stuff. o=<


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## mushanga

gwillimw @ Thu 01 Nov said:


> Great work! Right away I was thrilled by the orchestral colours used in this, and I really enjoy the percussion work. I'm certainly no expert on this, but the only thing I would consider exploring more is the spatial placement/panning/reverb depth on the track, to make it feel a bit more live and give those instruments a bit more breathing room. Although, as a library track, perhaps the more compressed/full-out approach is appropriate?
> 
> Either way, I enjoyed listening to this - the choices of melody and supporting chords has a great tension/release effect. I look forward to hearing more of your stuff. o=<



Thanks for your comments! Yes they did ask for the track to be heavily compressed, although I do agree it sounds pretty full blown out. Perhaps a tad too much.


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## Frank Luchs

This is a very nice and usable library track. The near reverberation sounds suitable and the clean arrangement is to the point.


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## mushanga

Frank Luchs @ Sat 10 Nov said:


> This is a very nice and usable library track. The near reverberation sounds suitable and the clean arrangement is to the point.



Thanks for your kind words!


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## Rctec

...Let me just chime in a little here. I NEVER listen to things that are a "tribute" or "in the style of".
When I had my day job as head of music at Dreamworks, I got flooded by demos of John Williams sound-alikes. I kept wondering that it never occured to these people that this was Steven Spielberg's studio and he could just walk down the hall and ask the real John Williams to work on a score... Of course it pisses me off, (is that too vulgar a term for this forum?) someone trying to write in my style, or any other working composer's style. It dillutes what little original thought I have. It might be a horrible noise to some, but to me it's still making a living. And I take some pride and pleasure in the noise I make, 'cause it's my noise. Shouldn't you be aiming a little higher? How do these conversations go? The director or producer says "can you sound like Zimmer?" and you say "Yes, show me the money"? Where is the challenge in that? That's de-composing! 
...Don't you know how career cycles work? - At the beginning its "Who is Hans Zimmer?", then "Get me Hans Zimmer", "Get me someone who sounds like Hans Zimmer", "Get me a Young Hans Zimmer" and finally, back to "Who's Hans Zimmer?". By the time you figured it out, my style will be irrelevant. All the copying just hasten it's demise. To paraphrase Jean Cocteau - "Fashion - You can forgive her anything, she dies so young..."
But the people who's careers I had a little helping hand in, (not their music - that's all them) are people like John Powell, or Harry G-W. Strong, independent thinkers, independent voices - Brilliant artists in their own right. Henry Jackman is totally his own man. He wanted to do mainly Drum 'n Bass when I met him. "Wreck-It Ralph" sounds nothing like my music. The only thing we have in common is working 'round the clock, putting in the hours to experiment, think it through, come up with a concept. ...And we always execute plan 'B' flawlessly when the grand concept turns out to be unplayable (or unaffordable).
I saw this interview with Keith Jarrett once, where he was explaining that everybody was always going on about finding "Your Own Voice". But... You are born with your voice. That's a given. It's logical. You are not born with John Williams' voice... Actually, it can be a bit of a bore and you end up trying to get past it. Now go and see what crazy, wild things you can do with it. Shake it up. Orchestral Psychedelic Country and Western Electronica is coming, trust me!
(p.s...sorry about the rant. And I'm just as guilty to be influenced by my heroes...No need to write a long post pointing it out to me...)
-H-


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Great post, Hans! Excellent advice for all. I really like the last part, in parentheses. :mrgreen: 

And yes, you can say 'piss me off' here.

When he was young, Picasso (like many others before and after, of course) used to go to the Louvre and copy the masters. I'm not sure that he actually showed them to anybody though. Maybe that's a big difference today, as everyone wants to share everything, even if its just sketches/etudes/copies.


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## germancomponist

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> Great post, Hans! Excellent advice for all.



+1


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## presetfreund

'Judging' solely the production quality (since the style of writing declaredly and obviously is epigonic -and the purpose, demo composing for a sample library, is comprehensible ) I must say 90% -very well done i.m.o. Don´t know how it would sound in theaters but in my room it sounds great.

Why not 100%? The strings still sound too toy-ish to me. I do mean the mid-ranged spiccatos or staccatos starting at 0:18 as well as the sustained high strings starting at 0:51. Thus, from me only 60% for strings ....

Everything else, groove, horns, perc., mixing, overall production and so on is pretty cool. Would like to hear more of that...


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## adg21

But what you can do now is to shake it up (as Hans advised) as the 'elements' you've got aren't too bad - bass pulse / perc is nice. Shake it up, melt it down, mash it up, lose the strings altogether etc...


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## zacnelson

Even John Williams seemed to be inspired by composers like Korngold; I have one Korngold composition on my iPhone which in places is almost note-for-note copied by Williams in his Star Wars and Superman themes. But maybe now that Williams is such a giant of the industry he overshadows his predecessors. But these days with electronic elements in scores and more experimentation, it's more obvious when someone is imitating somebody else's sounds. Now that we have `The Dark Zebra' plugin it will be so obvious when people are repeating the Batman score, and it will be easier and easier for anyone to do it. Let's hope that in decades to come people will always remember who the pioneer of the sound was.

Regarding Hans Zimmer's soundtracks, my favourite was always The Lion King, (not the Elton John stuff, I mean the more serious music). Another favourite was Beyond Rangoon. I would listen to both endlessly when I was about 18. It's interesting to see the wide variety of sounds HZ has employed throughout his career, whereas some composers stayed within the traditional orchestral format for decades.


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## germancomponist

Rctec @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> ..That's de-composing!



Well said! o/~


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## michaelv

zacnelson @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Even John Williams seemed to be inspired by composers like Korngold; I have one Korngold composition on my iPhone which in places is almost note-for-note copied by Williams in his Star Wars and Superman themes. But maybe now that Williams is such a giant of the industry he overshadows his predecessors.



I think you mean King's Row. It isn't the themes that are similar : in fact, they are not the same at all. It's the orchestrations that sound alike, and Williams was deliberately evoking a "Golden Age" sound ( epitomised by Korngold, etc ) for his Star Wars score, so not guilty off "ripping off, in this case.The Korngold one is often cited. I've heard so many other things he (Williams) "stole" that were made his own, like all great composers. The other day I noticed a whole section in Jaws sounding just like a part of Stravinsky's Symphony In Three Movements. But, really, as a general, film is not art. If it is, it's usually art with a small "a".

If you really want to correspond his themes they are elsewhere. For example: Star Wars is almost identical to John Barry's "Born Free" ( no, really! ), and a Carl Nielsen symphony, which predates Korngold . Superman? That's Richard Strauss, to an astonishing level of similarity, but not the whole thing, of course.

I'm currently working on something that rips off Mahler, Scriabin, Beethoven, Holst, Bliss, Goldsmith, Williams ( duh ), Zimmer, Led Zeppelin, Bacos, Temple, and....me. If there are any others, I'll let you know.Hell, I might even post it.


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## presetfreund

michaelv @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> I'm currently working on something that rips off Mahler, Scriabin, Beethoven, Holst, Bliss, Goldsmith, Williams ( duh ), Zimmer, Led Zeppelin, Bacos, Temple, and....me.


 :shock:




michaelv @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> If there are any others, I'll let you know.Hell, I might even post it.



Definitely interesting. When can we to listen to it?


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## Lex

michaelv @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> But, really, as a general, film is not art. If it is, it's usually art with a small "a".



Film is art, with a big "A", often more vibrant and original then a lot of the things happening in "academic" visual arts, or concert music scene.

The only problem is that at least in this place as soon as some one says "great movie score", the crowd goes "E.T.!!! Star Wars!!! Jaws!! E.T.!!!"....and they are absolutely brilliant scores , but it's the equivalent of going to "modern literature writers" forum and constantly talking about "Peter Pan", "Wizard of Oz" and "Buck Rogers - Hammer Of Mars". 


alex


----------



## Markus S

Rctec @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> ...Let me just chime in a little here. I NEVER listen to things that are a "tribute" or "in the style of".
> When I had my day job as head of music at Dreamworks, I got flooded by demos of John Williams sound-alikes. I kept wondering that it never occured to these people that this was Steven Spielberg's studio and he could just walk down the hall and ask the real John Williams to work on a score... Of course it pisses me off, (is that too vulgar a term for this forum?) someone trying to write in my style, or any other working composer's style. It dillutes what little original thought I have. It might be a horrible noise to some, but to me it's still making a living. And I take some pride and pleasure in the noise I make, 'cause it's my noise. Shouldn't you be aiming a little higher? How do these conversations go? The director or producer says "can you sound like Zimmer?" and you say "Yes, show me the money"? Where is the challenge in that? That's de-composing!
> ...Don't you know how career cycles work? - At the beginning its "Who is Hans Zimmer?", then "Get me Hans Zimmer", "Get me someone who sounds like Hans Zimmer", "Get me a Young Hans Zimmer" and finally, back to "Who's Hans Zimmer?". By the time you figured it out, my style will be irrelevant. All the copying just hasten it's demise. To paraphrase Jean Cocteau - "Fashion - You can forgive her anything, she dies so young..."
> But the people who's careers I had a little helping hand in, (not their music - that's all them) are people like John Powell, or Harry G-W. Strong, independent thinkers, independent voices - Brilliant artists in their own right. Henry Jackman is totally his own man. He wanted to do mainly Drum 'n Bass when I met him. "Wreck-It Ralph" sounds nothing like my music. The only thing we have in common is working 'round the clock, putting in the hours to experiment, think it through, come up with a concept. ...And we always execute plan 'B' flawlessly when the grand concept turns out to be unplayable (or unaffordable).
> I saw this interview with Keith Jarrett once, where he was explaining that everybody was always going on about finding "Your Own Voice". But... You are born with your voice. That's a given. It's logical. You are not born with John Williams' voice... Actually, it can be a bit of a bore and you end up trying to get past it. Now go and see what crazy, wild things you can do with it. Shake it up. Orchestral Psychedelic Country and Western Electronica is coming, trust me!
> (p.s...sorry about the rant. And I'm just as guilty to be influenced by my heroes...No need to write a long post pointing it out to me...)
> -H-



It is good to read that I am not the only one, being sick of hearing HZ imitations everywhere. I have my share of guilt in this as well. The reality of the market may oblige us to imitate a style, worse specific tracks (bills to pay, no alternatives). I have one of them on my website and I do not advise to listen to it. The director is a friend of mine, used a HZ track in his trailer, then panicked, OMG he couldn't use it for the festival, one day left to do something similar, what can you say.

Anyway I truly believe the market would benefit VERY largely from composers searching their own voices. There would be a bigger turn over on projects, because you would be only commissioned for the style you do best and the overall music quality on the market would hit the roof, because everyone would be in his best field. However the reality of the market for now seems to quite the opposite and it seems to get worse.


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## michaelv

Lex @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> michaelv @ Tue Nov 20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But, really, as a general, film is not art. If it is, it's usually art with a small "a".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Film is art, with a big "A", often more vibrant and original then a lot of the things happening in "academic" visual arts, or concert music scene.
> 
> The only problem is that at least in this place as soon as some one says "great movie score", the crowd goes "E.T.!!! Star Wars!!! Jaws!! E.T.!!!"....and they are absolutely brilliant scores , but it's the equivalent of going to "modern literature writers" forum and constantly talking about "Peter Pan", "Wizard of Oz" and "Buck Rogers - Hammer Of Mars".
> 
> 
> alex
Click to expand...



I said "in general". Most are not.You surely can't mean that all films are Art: that's clearly not the case. Otherwise, we'd be in the difficult position of having to justify,e.g., the Porkies or Police Academy movies, wouldn't we? Of course there are films with a very big "A", but of the thousands in existence, most are not worthy of being Art, in the way I would understand it, at least. There's Art that I don't think should have the big A,too. And it doesn't then mean that, by definition, I like all Art, BTW!

You seem to be initially referring to film, as a whole, then narrow the bandwidth to just the score. Some poor films have good scores, and vice versa. I don't think it's so clear-cut.

Perhaps I should not have opened that can of worms, with its Warhol label....

The piece the other guys were asking about: I might post it when it's done. I'm currently wrestling with the first section, which contains more of the "difficult" material, of the late Romantic/early 20th century period. The rest is a piece of cake. :| I was a bit tongue-in-cheek with those influences, but it's basically what I meant....

I call this "music salad". I just did a short piece for an LA music library company; it's called Kongzilla, and is on my website right now, in the Commercial/Tailer section. It mixes rock and cinematic in a way that gave me the idea to do this other track. Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack this thread with my shameless self-promotion. 8)


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## George Caplan

michaelv @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> I call this "music salad". I just did a short piece for an LA music library company; it's called Kongzilla, and is on my website right now, in the Commercial/Tailer section.



not to sidetrack this thread but sometimes i listen to a track or two here and feel like im being hit over the head with a hammer. :lol: but that one of yours is real good. 

small a is right. i havent seen a decent film for years that makes sense.


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## michaelv

Thank you ,sir. Seriously, it's not my intention to take this thread hostage with my own work, because the OP has done a fine job. I just wanted to put into context my stance.


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## germancomponist

Markus S @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Anyway I truly believe the market would benefit VERY largely from composers searching their own voices. There would be a bigger turn over on projects, because you would be only commissioned for the style you do best and the overall music quality on the market would hit the roof, because everyone would be in his best field. However the reality of the market for now seems to quite the opposite and it seems to get worse.



+1


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## Kejero

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> When he was young, Picasso (like many others before and after, of course) used to go to the Louvre and copy the masters. I'm not sure that he actually showed them to anybody though. Maybe that's a big difference today, as everyone wants to share everything, even if its just sketches/etudes/copies.



Good point. But the fact is that copying is simply the best way to acquire new skills. It's only once you've mastered a certain degree of foundation, and truly understand it, that you can start building on top of it, twist it, bend it, and possibly turn it into something entirely different and unique. I believe this is true for any skill.

Speaking of Star Wars. The whole King's Row influence is indeed quite famous. But just today I happened to come across this :D 

*John Williams: Imperial March sounds like Walt Disney: Spoonful of Sugar*


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## Kejero

Rctec @ Thu Nov 15 said:


> How do these conversations go? The director or producer says "can you sound like Zimmer?" and you say "Yes, show me the money"?



Holst Zimmer asks an interesting question here. I'm also curious to learn how these things happen?

(Sorry man, but you left that one wide open!  )


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## Rctec

OoooH, Kejero, who's a clever boy, then? But you obviously missed the "in paranthesis" part fo my post. To address your question...we where having a bit of a laugh. It was a Gladiator movie, after all. Don't you think that Ridley shooting the entrance into Rome as a homage to Leni Riefenstahl would at least have warranted you noticing my awful "Wagner" parody? I'm rather hurt by my arrow not finding it's mark. I was trying to be so obvious. You see, sometimes it's not the temp, it's the Martinis and a good chuckle with your director about not taking it all so very seriously that lead to folly... Sir, you're off my christmas card list.


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## Kejero

Rctec @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> I was trying to be so obvious.



Heehee, just teasing sir 

And you couldn't have been more obvious! That whole commotion back in the day was such a joke. _Of course_ Hans Zimmer did not actually try to covertly sidewrite Holst's most famous work (or even Wagner's) and then thought he'd get away with it without anybody noticing it. It's baffling how people jumped on this. I mean, come on :D

Not as much being clever as I was hoping that after all this time you can look back at the whole 'plagiarism' circus with an amused grin (better yet, I gather from your story you possibly always have?). Aaaand admittedly I was hoping I could seduce you to tell us where the idea came from. See, they never tell you in those cd booklets that Martinis where involved! 
Personally I thought it was brilliant what you did there. And come on, it wasn't awful. You appropriately injected some steroids into it to match the Crowe. It worked perfectly for the picture.

On the same train of thought, I love what you did with Don Giovanni in Game of Shadows. I'm sure some people will call it butchering, but the way that that music smoothly moves into your own bombastic theme for that movie gives me chills every time. From your previous work I think it's obvious you love the Mozart, so it must 've been great to actually get to play around with his work to such a degree. I'm wondering... Was Don Giovanni actually in the script or was this an opportunity you had a hand in facilitating?


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## TheRoot

Oh yes! Another substitute.

One does always try to imitate, when one is not secure enough.

Try starting every other piece with the permission to reinvent yourself and try to make something better. If there is the necessity to adapt it should only be the formal principle, that your "idol" used - but try just to interpret these principles rather than copying them.

Just an "I want to sound like..." results in what Id call substitutable music, because only the real artists knows these little tricks, that make it's music unique and outstanding.

I hate this "idolization/romanticizing" ... where is the point in that? We are all humans.


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## Markus S

http://youtu.be/LQqq3e03EBQ


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## TheRoot

> We are all humans.





> http://youtu.be/LQqq3e03EBQ



:mrgreen:


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## Consona

I think mr. Zimmer should be glad that he is the one who is imitated, that he is among the people who lead film music trends, that he is the influential one. The fact his work is imitated is proof people really like his work. It is proof he is doing something right.
Just my opinion.


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## mushanga

Hey all,

Once again, I really don't feel that such personal attacks on my style and creative direction are justified. I clearly stated earlier in the thread that this track was written for a library company and to a specific brief. The company wanted me to write a track in the style of Hans's work from Inception and The Dark Knight. It is only since sharing it in this forum that I have referred to it as a tribute, since essentially it is one! I can't see where I have gone wrong here? Being able to write like this and re-create this sound is a useful skill, even if only commercially speaking. I'd much rather do this in order to pay my bills than stack shelves at my local Tesco!

And I stress, *of course* I am trying to sculpt a unique style and sound of my own. Surely one library track shouldn't tarnish my versatility with the same brush?

And Hans - it's a shame you have refused to listen to the piece because I have labelled it a tribute..?! The melody and composition are still mine I'll have you know! 0oD


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## Rctec

But, Orchestranova, there is a little law called "Intend to copy" - its not the notes, it's the brief to sound like something else (short explanation)- and the library company should not put you in a position like that. Ultimately, WB will probably go after all the sound-alikes, because it diminishes WB product. By admitting the "in the style of" you open up a whole can of worms, especially since it was for a commercial product, not just an étude. This has nothing to do with me personally, but why would Warner's have anyone get rich on the back of something that is only in fashion and marketable through their successful franchises?
Hz


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## mushanga

Rctec @ Thu 13 Dec said:


> But, Orchestranova, there is a little law called "Intend to copy" - its not the notes, it's the brief to sound like something else (short explanation)- and the library company should not put you in a position like that. Ultimately, WB will probably go after all the sound-alikes, because it diminishes WB product. By admitting the "in the style of" you open up a whole can of worms, especially since it was for a commercial product, not just an étude. This has nothing to do with me personally, but why would Warner's have anyone get rich on the back of something that is only in fashion and marketable through their successful franchises?
> Hz



Hi Hans - thanks for your message. I get your point - but if you say that the client should not ask the composer to write something "in the style of.." someone else's work, then why do references/temp tracks exist? What's the point of a temp if the final product is not meant to be anything like it...? Of course it's the composer's job to take the temp as a basis for sculpting something of their own, but can you see where I am coming from?


----------



## park bench

> if you say that the client should not ask the composer to write something "in the style of.." someone else's work, then why do references/temp tracks exist? What's the point of a temp if the final product is not meant to be anything like it...?



Mr. Zimmer's point is that he/we/the world would love to hear you, not another Zimmer. He's said that multiple times across this forum. Then in legal terms, all the "tribute" tracks done for music libraries are not "Tributes" like a Copland tribute to American folk songs, they are an intended rip-off (pardon the expression, your track sounds fine).

_And as for temp tracks, it's the director's fault if he is so unimaginative that he sticks "BRAAAMMM"s all over the locked cut. Blow him out of the water by writing something else that is just as oscar worthy._


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

orchestranova @ 13/12/2012 said:


> Hi Hans - thanks for your message. I get your point - but if you say that the client should not ask the composer to write something "in the style of.." someone else's work, then why do references/temp tracks exist? What's the point of a temp if the final product is not meant to be anything like it...? Of course it's the composer's job to take the temp as a basis for sculpting something of their own, but can you see where I am coming from?



But this is for a library, not replacing a temp track in a film or tv show. The difference, to me at least, is that for a traditional temp, it's often a case of, "We needed something to edit to, so the editor dropped this in, but you should go ahead and do something that works better." For a library, it's more, "Hey! Can't afford Zimmer for your next project? No sweat, here's a sound alike for your ad, film, etc"


----------



## mushanga

park bench @ Thu 13 Dec said:


> Mr. Zimmer's point is that he/we/the world would love to hear you, not another Zimmer. He's said that multiple times across this forum. Then in legal terms, all the "tribute" tracks done for music libraries are not "Tributes" like a Copland tribute to American folk songs, they are an intended rip-off (pardon the expression, your track sounds fine).
> 
> _And as for temp tracks, it's the director's fault if he is so unimaginative that he sticks "BRAAAMMM"s all over the locked cut. Blow him out of the water by writing something else that is just as oscar worthy._



Thanks for your message. I totally get where you are coming from. It's interesting to hear Danny Elfman explain in this video (from around 1:13) how attached to temp tracks directors can become...

http://www.vsl.co.at/videoplayer_mp4.asp?ID=319


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## mushanga

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu 13 Dec said:


> But this is for a library, not replacing a temp track in a film or tv show. The difference, to me at least, is that for a traditional temp, it's often a case of, "We needed something to edit to, so the editor dropped this in, but you should go ahead and do something that works better." For a library, it's more, "Hey! Can't afford Zimmer for your next project? No sweat, here's a sound alike for your ad, film, etc"



Forgive me for writing commercially and for trying to make a living out of making music! And, again, I stress - this piece does not specifically rip off any Zimmer track. It just contains "flavours" of his Dark Knight/Inception scores with my own compositional input.


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## Kejero

Isn't it the thing though with EVERY SINGLE MUSIC LIBRARY that they all contain music specifically written to sound exactly like existing, usually popular, music? It's their business model, isn't it?

Btw, Matt, all discussion aside, I think you created a nice texture here. I like the opening 30 seconds, the chord progression also resonates with me. The main melody is very poor in my opinion and after those first 30 seconds the piece loses my interest. When the melody repeats itself, it even becomes... nagging. I get the nod to Inception, but it's just not working for me. Sorry to sound so harsh. Like I said, it's just the melody. Everything else is top notch.


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## Rctec

...and, Orchestranova, excuse Me for trying to make a living through music. The scores you take 'flavors' from are pretty minimalist scores that rely more on sounds and simple motives then melodies. So every time you dip your spoon into my pot for a bit of flavor, you dilute my soup, spread it around and make it less valuable. So, yes, you and your library music are taking away from me personally and the filmcompany's properties. As an example, had the dreaded ostinatoes only been confined to the 'Batman' franchise, people wouldn't be so sick of it all. Or the 'Inception' brass thing. Neither are particularilly clever pieces of music, they are a vibe. But the vibe of the music in conjunction with a successful film seems to give everybody the idea that they can just nibble away at the it for their own gain. I don't see you mentioning how you are going to share your flavors for free with me or Chris Nolan. You are doing it for a library as a copywritten track. How do you decide, without asking me, without giving me the choice,how much 'flavor' is ok to take? 'Batman' is a 'concept' or 'ideas' based score. you take two notes as 'flavor', you've basically taken the whole thing.


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## mushanga

Rctec @ Wed 26 Dec said:


> ...and, Orchestranova, excuse Me for trying to make a living through music. The scores you take 'flavors' from are pretty minimalist scores that rely more on sounds and simple motives then melodies. So every time you dip your spoon into my pot for a bit of flavor, you dilute my soup, spread it around and make it less valuable. So, yes, you and your library music are taking away from me personally and the filmcompany's properties. As an example, had the dreaded ostinatoes only been confined to the 'Batman' franchise, people wouldn't be so sick of it all. Or the 'Inception' brass thing. Neither are particularilly clever pieces of music, they are a vibe. But the vibe of the music in conjunction with a successful film seems to give everybody the idea that they can just nibble away at the it for their own gain. I don't see you mentioning how you are going to share your flavors for free with me or Chris Nolan. You are doing it for a library as a copywritten track. How do you decide, without asking me, without giving me the choice,how much 'flavor' is ok to take? 'Batman' is a 'concept' or 'ideas' based score. you take two notes as 'flavor', you've basically taken the whole thing.



Many composers are inspired by the music created by other composers, and I don't understand why those composers get offended rather than take it as a compliment. I have never copied anyone's music and so there is no point in mentioning copyright. I understand if you are getting annoyed at people who copy you, however I haven't, so there's no point in attacking me. I don't even know if you have listened to this track and are commenting specifically on what I have written or if you are just making a point here to stop those people who may have copied you...?


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## Rctec

...to answer you by quoting you:

"I think people here are being a bit harsh on me. This track was actually written for a production library company who asked for a piece in the style of Hans's Inception and Dark Knight scores. So to answer your question, Gunther, this was why I wrote this track..."

So you did intent to copy my style because you admit to being asked to so, you say it's for a commercial library - therefore you (and they) are trying to make money from my work. This is not just a private exersise to improve your composing skills.

It's a pity that you don't get the concept of how you - by taking the job, by bragging about it, by releasing it, by being foolish enough to declare your intentions in the title of the piece and therefore not only putting yourself but the library company at risk - are not willing or able to see the bigger picture by now. And it's a pity that you don't get the concept of how you, by releasing an arguably inferiour piece, add to the slush of similar uninspired noise that reduces a simple but successful idea by its repeated cheap imitation into just a bunch of cliches. For example, nothing new about ostinatoes. Vivaldi did it pretty well. But it's the combination of a style of music with a successful film that you are imitating for prfit, not Vivaldi. 
So who's harsh here? Me, or your willful stubborness to not have the moral, intellectual or basic sophistication to understand my point about diluting my and WBs assets?

Instead you feel sorry for yourself and complain how "people are a bit harsh..."

Please read my earlier post, and see if you can reply with some logic and a little less sense of self-entitlement.

-Hz-


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## Tatu

The good thing is; now that HZ has once again changed the world in terms of what it wants to hear, he can go to his dark crypt and invent something completely new (something less synthy, more re-inventing the traditional orchestral colors, please, Mr. Zimmer  )


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## mpalenik

zacnelson @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Even John Williams seemed to be inspired by composers like Korngold; I have one Korngold composition on my iPhone which in places is almost note-for-note copied by Williams in his Star Wars and Superman themes.



A bit off topic, but speaking of the superman themes, skip to 19:50 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqoj2963DCU (the theme comes up over and over again, but this is one of the most obviously superman-like parts) and tell me John Williams didn't almost note for note copy Richard Strauss.

But whatever happened to musical periods, where Mozart and Myslivecek could sound almost exactly alike, and even Clementi sounded kind of similar, and no one even thought it could possibly be reasonable to sue for "intent to copy" when music was stylistically similar but with different chords, melodies, and orchestration (referring to Hans Zimmer's post)?


edit:


rctec said:


> there is a little law called "Intend to copy" - its not the notes, it's the brief to sound like something else



Admittedly, I am not a lawyer and only did a quick google search, but the only thing I can find relating to this involves copying actual notes (like melodies, i.e. chunks of music) rather than "styles". In fact, I'm fairly sure that even deliberate copying of a composer's *style* is protected (allowed), as long as no actual chunks of music are copied, even in the event that you can prove one composer was trying to copy the *style* of another.


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## Kejero

Well no, actually there's definitely been cases won with "intend to copy" as the strongest argument in court. Don't recall specific cases off the top of my head, but it's definitely happened.


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## germancomponist

Rctec @ Wed Dec 26 said:


> 'Batman' is a 'concept' or 'ideas' based score. you take two notes as 'flavor', you've basically taken the whole thing.



Exactly!

I do not understand why this fact is not recognized by so many...?! They bring all kinds of arguments for their copies: "And if you were to listen carefully, you would still hear a difference." bla bla bla, e.t.c. .


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## mpalenik

Kejero @ Wed Dec 26 said:


> Well no, actually there's definitely been cases won with "intend to copy" as the strongest argument in court. Don't recall specific cases off the top of my head, but it's definitely happened.



A woman also successfully sued McDonald's because she spilled hot coffee on her own lap while driving with the cup between her knees. 

And in the music world, there was even this fairly stupid lawsuit.
http://classicalconvert.com/2007/07/the-stupidest-music-lawsuit-ever-infringing-on-cages-433/ (http://classicalconvert.com/2007/07/the ... cages-433/)

Sometimes lawsuits are won that shouldn't really be won and are pretty iffy from a legal standpoint. I'm not saying that's exactly what happened in the cases you were talking about, and I wonder if perhaps the similarities were a little more than stylistic similarity in those cases, as well.


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## Consona

germancomponist @ Wed Dec 26 said:


> Rctec @ Wed Dec 26 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Batman' is a 'concept' or 'ideas' based score. you take two notes as 'flavor', you've basically taken the whole thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> I do not understand why this fact is not recognized by so many...?! They bring all kinds of arguments for their copies: "And if you were to listen carefully, you would still hear a difference." bla bla bla, e.t.c. .
Click to expand...

Did orchestranova use any motif or melody or rhytm from any Batman movie?

So is it ok that John Williams takes pieces from compositions of another composers note by note but orchestranova cannot compose something that resembles Batman music? hm...

Please, enlighten me. Seriously.


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## mark812

What about using Dark Zebra with the same sounds that can be heard in Batman trilogy? :D


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## Rctec

Too big a topic to really get into proper detail here. Plus, I'm not a lawyer and I'm really jet-lagged. So...A very simplified and personal oppinion:

If I where to devide the issues into 2 categories, it'd be something like this:

First, the personal point of view: If you quote from dead composers, or, in legal terms, "prior art", it doesn't really hurt their career, now does it? This, of course precludes that they are not still in copyright, and it financially hurts their heirs. I got kids, so I think of stuff like that...

If people keep quoting living, working composers and "living", current projects, it actually effects the value of their work and the value of their projects. Using "Batman" as an example - We still had two more movies to go after establishing a tone and style in the first one. In those eight years derivatives became the sound of a lot of other movies, trailers, games, etc. It was directly effecting how quickly people got tired and saturated with our sound, and totally undermined it by the time the second and third one came along. And, as the composer, you are sort of caught in an impossible situation: because it's a sequel, you are required to maintain the tone and motives you set up in the original, but now everybody is critisising you for being derivative, even though it's not really the music from the original they think off (we never licensed it to any trailers or anything else), but the sound-alikes that started to appear. And those terrible versions from Prague.

My second - and more pragmatic - point is quite simply that the movie studios will protect their properties. None of that music was cheap, and they hold the publishing and copyright. So when someone advertises something as "Gotham needs a hero - a tribute to Hans Zimmer", and they release that as a library track - in other words, as a potentially competing project - the WB legal team has a pretty easy time proving that their was an intent to make money by copying, or, at the very least, using the name of a successful project to attract commercial attention. 

This really isn't the same as, for instance, taking a piece by Bach - which is well out of copyright - and rearranging it the way Schoenberg and many other composers have done. Or the way Shostakovitch used Beethoven's 9th in one of his scores. I've done it with Mozart, berlioz, Schubert (Sherlock 2 is full of Schubert quotes) and pretty much every classical composer I can think of. I've been influenced by Morricone (who is amazingly influenced by Bach) and Kurt Weill, Nino Rota - you name it. And I don't mind admitting it. But I try to walk a careful line...


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## musophrenic

I happened across this track some time ago, by Immediate Music, called 'The Dark Knight'. It's exactly what you think it is ... with choir on top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGYzkOkGqnY

I can't make any claims about might have gone on here, because Immediate Music are well established as far as I know, and maybe these tracks aren't licensed to just anybody with a dollar - I don't know. Do the guys writing music this similar to a specific composer/style/vibe consult with said composer in any capacity? When is a track like this, that could have easily been one of the tracks in the Dark Knight Trilogy scores (I've listened through them countless times, lol, enough to know), OK to put out?

I also love Two Steps From Hell - Nick and TJ write a hell of a lot of amazing original music (Skyworld is a wonderful album!). Occasionally, however, I'll find a track here or there that sounds like it was deliberately made with a Pirates of the Caribbean or Inception vibe in mind (and I don't mean BRAAAM ):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TwP8aN-IIc 

I'm aware Nick and TJ worked with Hans on the 4th Pirates movie, and we all know they're not a couple of guys just starting out in the business - so maybe the Pirates stuff is never an issue with Klaus or Hans ... plus, everyone seems to do a musical parody of the Pirates thing anyway - lol, no wonder, as it's so much fun to play! As for the track above, which feels like it was based on 'Dream is Collapsing' ... Does the same issue still apply, considering 2SFH are two professionals who Hans actually knows and has worked with? And does the way the music gets used have an effect on how much of an issue this is? I.e. if the music gets licensed to just about anyone or if the music library can limit who gets to use these tunes? And again, is the composer who inspired the vibe in the first place being made aware?

In my limited music library experience, I haven't had a brief that has asked for a specific film or composer style ... yet. I sure hope that doesn't happen, but it does prompt the question: Is this a symptom of the library model or a result? Are libraries being requested by their clients to churn out cheap imitations (as in cheap to license, I'm not attacking the quality of the composers), or do they take the initiative and put them out to the market, knowing the client will undoubtedly bite? And in the case of 2 guys as established and ubiquitous as 2SFH, who can write any kind of music they like and not lose a single sale/license, is there still some pressure to produce some Zimmer/Williams/Other-Awesome-Composer vibed tracks, as that is the nature of the market?

Lol, just some thoughts and questions. A penny for yours?


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## musophrenic

Oops, sorry Hans if I've just overlapped any of your points - I must have been writing my response while you were writing yours; I didn't realise it until I submitted it.


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## Consona

Makes sense. At first I thought _Gotham Needs A Hero_ was a fan art i.e. something made by fan of the films and music of mr. Zimmer and Howard not to make any profit (or at least straight monetary profit).
I can see it as a problem if it is a product on market trying to parasite on success of Batman franchise, which of course could be the case with fan art as well. It is up to original author what he decides to do about that. Deviantart is full of ilustrations of characters from World of WarCraft and Lord of the Rings and things like Batcrusher - Dark Knight Rises | Fan Art. Blizzard for example gathers them on their official site, don't know about attitude of other authors.
And thank you for sharing opinions. By the way what makes it _"arguably inferiour piece"_?


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## Rctec

"Arguably inferior"? Dodgy craftsmanship. Not spending enough time programming. Thinking its good enough as it is. And not recognizing it.


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## Tatu

Seems to me like there's Zimmer-copyists everywhere and every trailer is filled with soundalike stuff.. I'd say it's a Don Quixote thing to go up against those windmills, even for Mr. Zimmer.

What's wrong with this particular piece is - IMO - the humble approach to the topic: "Tribute to Hans Zimmer" that might even appear like - for the lack of better word, pardon my french - whoring a little back tap from the Man himself.. later to reveal that it's in fact a soundalike copy to a library, which makes that "Tribute" -part a bit of an insult.

PS: Good words from rctec towards Powell and G-W. Nobody should call them copyists (I don't think nobody really has), as I believe these men crafted their sound, not only inspiring each other, but also together. +1.


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## Lex

I really enjoy mr. Zimmer's take on this, and wish some of the stuff he said in this thread was made as a sticky, cause this issue will come again and again.

I don't really see how can this be even debated. The track is a deliberate cheap knock off, it's only purpose is to provide clients with something that resembles TDK/TDKR for a fraction of a price. Why is it a knock off and not a piece that draws inspiration from Mr. Zimmers work? Because if you strip away the signature Zebra bass, the swelling chords and similar tempo and orchestration there is nothing left.

Making bad copies of someones work is relatively easy (what makes them bad copies? the fact that they copy the surface the most obvious and thus adding to diluting of the original idea). "Stealing" pieces of someones work and using it as an inspiration or even a building block for creating a voice of your own and thus propelling the stolen idea in a completely new direction is not that easy.

For example combining Wagner with Mike Oldfield and John Carpenter in to a music language that is very much your own is brilliant. Or take Steve Jablonsky, his music language borrows heavily from the language established by Zimmer in 2000's, but only to build a language of it's own. When you sit in the cinema you would not mistake a Jablonsky score for a Zimmer score (unless you are tone deaf).

I love Batman trilogy scores, I love Inception even more, I borrow ideas from them and try to see what I can do with them in my own way. But the fact is that Transformers, TRON, Batman trilogy and Inception scores spawned a whole army of composers who are doing nothing but straight knock offs of these scores over and over and over. I even talked to a few young people who when I suggested that maybe they should try to explore their ideas without using the ostinatos on strings and Horns doing a generic "epic" theme they replied "...but what else will strings and brass do then?".....fukin sad...and unfair to the original composers.

Oh and btw, that Immediate Music track was written in 2005 I think (no I didnt write it) and I really don't see it that close to mr. Zimmer's work?

alex


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## TheUnfinished

I can totally see what Hans is saying, that every bad HZ knock-off (and I haven't listened to Orchestranova's track, so this is not a direct reference to it at all) has an impact on the artistic revenue of the music from the Batman series. By the time the last in the trilogy came around we were all VERY aware of the style and had it on fitness programmes, adverts for biscuits, everything...

However, this is (and surely always has been?) the business model of music libraries and there can't be many of us who haven't written for one or are planning to write for one? It's extremely nice if you get approached to write music in your own style, but how often does this really happen?

Most production companies' approach to making music decisions is to ask for something that "sounds a bit like Artist A" or a "cross between Artist B and Artist C". Yes, that's lazy. But is it a new thing? Or is it just more obviously prevalent because a) there's a much greater consumption of music in general these days, b) technology and sample libraries have made certain genres and styles more accessible to greater numbers of composers/producers?

I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with all this, but I do think there's been some "wishful thinking" in this thread. If there is a massive market for creating large numbers of tracks in the style of prevailing tastes, it seems a bit odd to be pointing the finger at the composer and not the music library industry.


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## George Caplan

ive been aware of morricone and those films since he started in films and ive never thought of it as being amazingly influenced by bach. being in a baroque combo on an amateur level we do a lot of bach works now and again.


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## Rctec

George Caplan, dig a little under the hood of - for instance- the "Once upon a time in the west" main theme - just look at the harmonic progression, the bassline, the french horn ostinato..or "Gabriel's theme" from "The Mission", or - my favorite (ok, it's got Mozart quotes all over it aswell) "March of the beggars". But he makes it entirely his own. Nonetheless, the knowledge, the craftsmanship, structure, inventiveness and discipline are all there. One of the best days I ever had was going to the Beethoven House in Bonn with Ennio, and him sightreading and humming all the handwritten scores to me...
mark812 - It's precisely because we are done with the "Batman" trilogy that we released those sounds. They are not relevant to my future...but they where for the last 8 years. I'm not going to use any of them for "Man of Steel". Time for new sounds. But I wanted people to have some fun with them and use them as starting points to create their own.

..But I'm still eagerly awaiting for a response from Orchestranova! He's picked quite a name to live up to


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## valexnerfarious

and im sure what ever inspires you for Man Of Steel will be another piece of perfect composition and emotion


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## mpalenik

Rctec @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> mark812 - It's precisely because we are done with the "Batman" trilogy that we released those sounds. They are not relevant to my future...but they where for the last 8 years. I'm not going to use any of them for "Man of Steel". Time for new sounds. But I wanted people to have some fun with them and use them as starting points to create their own.



So, I'm a bit confused, then. It seems like you've gotten all the mileage you wanted to out of the Batman-type sound, are moving in a new direction, and are even releasing tools that make it easier for people to copy that sound--but there's a problem when people DO try to copy it? I don't actually see what either you or Warner Bros. is losing at this point when someone tries to mimic that sound. After all, everyone knows what it is and you're not doing it anymore. So, that style of music is no longer allowed to exist?


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## valexnerfarious

im assuming what hans means is that there is a difference between taking inspiration from something and creating something fresh than to take that idea and remaking it


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## Ned Bouhalassa

2 key things to note, IMHO:

1. HZ is actually involved in the DarkZebra project. [strike]He makes an income from the sales, as does his programmer (the brilliant HS). He and WB stand to make zippo when it comes to sound library knock-offs.[/strike]
2. He has stated more than once that he would like people to use these sounds as starting blocks, ideally, not to mimic what they hear in the Batman movies.

PS: And let's not forget this important point (to me, anyways):



Rctec @ 26/12/2012 said:


> But I try to walk a careful line...



Be SMART! :wink:


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## germancomponist

mpalenik @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> So, I'm a bit confused, then. It seems like you've gotten all the mileage you wanted to out of the Batman-type sound, are moving in a new direction, and are even releasing tools that make it easier for people to copy that sound--but there's a problem when people DO try to copy it? I don't actually see what either you or Warner Bros. is losing at this point when someone tries to mimic that sound. After all, everyone knows what it is and you're not doing it anymore. So, that style of music is no longer allowed to exist?



I wonder how you can ask this question? o[])


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## Rctec

Well, mpalenik, I'm sure with a little careful reflection your confusion will go away.

Bottom line - I find it a little revolting and disingenius to come up with something called "Gotham Needs A Hero -a tribute to yours truly", and then sell it as a piece of library music. What do you think is going to make it stand out from all those other library pieces? That it was written by Orchestranova or trades on it's name dropping of a successful movie and sound? Just like I find your confusion contrived and your last sentence self-servingly attention grabbing. But that's just me.

Ned, I don't actually make any money from the Zebra project. It was more that Urs did me a favor by modifying Zebra for me, and I thought it would be nice for him to get something out of it in return.


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## Consona

@ Rctec: But what is not inferior compared to Remote Control production quality? :lol:

@ Lex: What does _borrowing ideas_ means exactly? It is so vague it hurts my brain. :D 

Did orchestranova borrowed something too? Or did he just make a mistake by naming it _Gotham whatever_?

What's the problem exactly? Using some melody or motif (is that borrowing too?), labeling the piece after some franchise, trying to mimic some sounds or style? Boundaries of these things are so unclear. I can understand Gribbin's books about quantum physics and Fichte's Grundlage der gesamten Wissenschaftslehre but this is over my head. :D


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## Rctec

Well, Consona, take a look at Fichte's "unbedingter Grundsatz", which deals with "Ich bin ein Ausdruck einer Tathandlung". I think the emphasis is firmly on the "Ich", and not the "borrowed" expression of the "Them"


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## germancomponist

Rctec @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> Well, Consona, take a look at Fichte's "unbedingter Grundsatz", which deals with "Ich bin ein Ausdruck einer Tathandlung". I think the emphasis is firmly on the "Ich", and not the "borrowed" expression of the "Them"


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## mpalenik

Rctec @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> Well, mpalenik, I'm sure with a little careful reflection your confusion will go away.
> 
> Bottom line - I find it a little revolting and disingenius to come up with something called "Gotham Needs A Hero -a tribute to yours truly", and then sell it as a piece of library music


Well, I find that a bit odd as well, but I don't think the OP really meant any harm by it. And keep in mind, the original post was from almost a year and a half ago, at which point, I don't think you were very regularly viewing this forum (unless I'm mistaken), so I don't see the original message as an attempt to grab your attention.

I can see why personally you might find it bothersome that he's selling something that he calls a "tribute" to you (although I would understand just as well if you didn't care at all). Would it be ok if he changed the title, which is something I probably would have recommended to him for when its included in a library, anyway?



> What do you think is going to make it stand out from all those other library pieces?


Nothing, really. Which is why I don't think it's all that important to worry about it.



> That it was written by Orchestranova or trades on it's name dropping of a successful movie and sound? Just like I find your confusion contrived and your last sentence self-servingly attention grabbing. But that's just me.


How is any of this self-serving? Ok, you responded to my message, now can you please tell me how that benefits me, or why I would go out of my way to grab your attention on this thread?


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## MrLinckus

In my opinion the problem is easy to understand...

there is a tribute to HZ... this tribute was (seems so) not composed out of an own and good will to tribute Hans. It uses the style of Hans and orchestranova (maybe) gained money for it to let it be an library demo piece...

Sorry ... when i would write a tribute i would clearly not go the HZ and Batman whatever way... try something what impressed HZ as a tribute, what makes HZ proud to hear and maybe get a little smile from the Master itself... but no here is a piece wich sounds similar to some of HZ works (he has done better works than the Batman Franchise, and damned i missed JNH on the third :D Sorry Hans).

When i "copied" DK i felt sorry for myself, because i can do better ... and i didn't even thought about stand out for it and talking about MY Composition... sometimes it just happen that we may "borrow" things out of our minds... but to stand here and don't take any advice you can get is wrong. Learn from it ... your future succes will thank you for that.

M2C

FL


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## Ned Bouhalassa

I'm starting to think that this thread is going to start to run in circles. But maybe it's only me... :roll: I'm also starting to feel that some of these posts belong as private messages, more than public accusations, defenses, etc.


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## Greg

Sweet piece, thanks for sharing


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## michaelv

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> I'm starting to think that this thread is going to start to run in circles. But maybe it's only me... :roll: I'm also starting to feel that some of these posts belong as private messages, more than public accusations, defenses, etc.



I'm rather glad this thread has gone on as long as this. Someone mentioned Immediate Music earlier. Acting on that, I contacted them today, almost out of seasonal boredom. The CEO got back within an hour and wants me to work with them. He didn't ask me to sound like anyone, BTW. In fact, most of my recent music production tracks haven't resembled anything established, though I obviously recognise it goes on, and have done "soundalikes" myself in the past. Really good production music houses don't always want copycat music. They like to set trends and innovate,too.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Glad you have found some more work, but I, for one, wished that these kinds of companies didn't exist. That way, every production would have to hire a composer instead of using a library. But I suppose that's a whole different thread...


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## michaelv

Thanks, sir. I'm not primarily a music library composer anymore. Sure, there will always be cheesy and sleazy elements to music library. That's why many don't even like calling themselves by that term anymore. But the high-end ones provide bespoke music too. Even people like Anne Dudley, from the UK, has done "library" music: I appeared on a compilation with her once. So, there is always room for quality and originality. Depends on the company.


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## Rctec

Ned is right, of course. This will go in circles and get a little unfriendly...which it really shouldn't do. 

I know that any composers is bothered by the endless imitators of their work as well...I don't think John Powell wants to hear another "Bourne" imitation, for example, or Danny another "Edward Scissorhands". Imitation is not a form of flattery. It's opportunism and intellectual laziness.

And, quite honestly, Orchestranova asked - if you look back to the first page - specifically for my opinion. Sorry he didn't like it. That's the problem with fishing expeditions. You never know what you're going to get...

But seriously, sooner or later a studio will go after the imitators and sound-alikes. You cant just assume, you actually need to check out the rules. And if you are foolish enough to say things like "...I didn't want to rip Zimmer off completely..." (I'm paraphrasing from memory), then you are setting yourself up for a drubbing. Who is he to decide how much he can rip off before its "completely"?

We live in complicated times. I like this forum because I feel that on the whole it's by people who are passionate about the things I'm passionate about, and I'd like to help others to realize their dreams and make a living from their passion, just like most people on this forum are doing for each other. (That doesn't mean you can pm me for a job! Please don't...) I'm trying to share a bit of experience - strictly from my perspective. Take it or leave it.


It's not true that it's lonely at the top. You quickly get a whole bunch of critics and distractors, opportunists and hanger-oners joining you on your fragile little perch. Any of you could have written the notes for "Batman" or "Inception". No doubt. But you didn't. It took me years to earn the right and the respect of filmmakers like Chris Nolan, to work with people that didn't have "Temp love". It wasn't like the opportunity just fell into my lap. I do a lot more than just plonk down an ostinato. Film is collaborative, so you need to be able to contribute ideas to the picture as a whole. I keep trying to do that, I keep trying to learn, I keep trying to get better at it. No one tries to make a bad movie, but when you actually get the chance to work on a good one with good people, you want to protect that - for their sake as much as yours.

So, no, I don't buy the whole altruistic "Tribute" idea, when its quickly followed by the words "Library" and "rip-off". Nor do I for a moment believe that anyone reading mpalenik's last question can't instantly spot the answer to it....

And, hey, I too missed JNH on the last movie. Can I help it if Chris kills off all of James' characters?


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## bluejay

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> Glad you have found some more work, but I, for one, wished that these kinds of companies didn't exist. That way, every production would have to hire a composer instead of using a library. But I suppose that's a whole different thread...



+1


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## mpalenik

Rctec @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> And, quite honestly, Orchestranova asked - if you look back to the first page - specifically for my opinion. Sorry he didn't like it. That's the problem with fishing expeditions. You never know what you're going to get...


I just wanted to point out quickly, since a lot of people are being kind of hard on the OP, that I think the original post of this thread is maybe a bit more defensible than it appears, since he didn't ask for your opinion until more than a year after he posted it. The title and everything was already set a year before you started looking here semi-regularly--so I don't think it started out as fishing.

As for the rest of your post, fair enough. And I want to also mention, I think the Batman score worked really well to set the mood for Batman and wouldn't have worked nearly as well for any random movie, so from an artistic standpoint, maybe copying it isn't a great idea (having seen each of the movies once and not owning/listening to the soundtrack, I'm not as familiar with it as a lot of people in this thread, probably, but there are parts that stand out in my mind), but people want what they want.



> Nor do I for a moment believe that anyone reading mpalenik's last question can't instantly spot the answer to it....



Actually, Hans, if you're talking about the "self-serving" comment, please, enlighten me. The way I've responded to you is exactly the way I would respond to anyone else on this forum.

Keep in mind also, I'm a physicist and I don't work in the film industry. I post here because I took 18 years of piano lessons and work with virtual instruments a lot, sometimes for small projects with friends, very occasionally on something I've gotten paid for. Mostly, I do it for fun. But I'm not trying to make a living at this. I'm not trying to claim that I can compose as well as you or anyone else. And I have nothing to gain by the purchase or sale of music libraries, nor have I ever written anything in the style of the Batman score, even for fun.

So, please, how is my response to you self-serving?

edit: And if you think that being a physicist means I don't know the value of original work, creative ideas, or the concept of ownership of work and ideas, I could write quite a bit about how it's relevant (as well as at least one legal situation that has come up).


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## musophrenic

Rctec @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> And, hey, I too missed JNH on the last movie. Can I help it if Chris kills off all of James' characters?



That's what you should have contributed to the picture - try to make Chris NOT kill off James' characters  Just kidding. 

To your point about Chris, it's not just you who is actively being imitated all over the shop, monsieur. Ever since The Dark Knight, it seems too many filmmakers have been making their own 'Dark Knight' - hell, even Sam Mendes admitted to being able to do Skyfall the way he did because of Nolan's precedent (there's even a sequence midway that was very heavily 'inspired' by TDK itself). The Amazing Spiderman was one such recent example, too. Many people have tried to insert the 'dark' flavour, the Nolan flavour, into their movies ... to varying degrees of success. 

I suppose the difference here is that if a film sucks, it's usually the filmmaker or the writer people criticize - much less the music ... People have written great scores to terrible movies, and maybe much fewer composers have written terrible scores to great movies - that's not something I know for a fact, as these opinions can by wildly subjective (I've heard the music of the Dark Knight trilogy being criticised for the most ridiculous reasons, but those were the reviewers' opinions). This may be why copycat filmmakers don't get as much heat as copycat composers - unless the score is absolutely terrible, the public may not always care as much as we do. Correct me if I'm wrong, this is pure speculation on my part, and I'm happily willing to be proven wrong 

Either way, Hans, thank you for really being an innovator and constantly asking people to NOT sound like you  My other favourite composer is Jesper Kyd, and for much the same reason - he's crafted his own sound and gives out his own unique voice in his music, and does not imitate nor does he want to be flattered by imitation.

P.S. Orchestranova, none of what I say is about your piece, as I've made no direct reference to it, so don't take anything I say personally  I'm sure you're a bloody talented guy.



Rctec @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> (That doesn't mean you can pm me for a job! Please don't...)



Ah, damn it! You mean I can't ask you to get me a job as Chris' coffee boy on the next movie you guys work on together, in the hopes that I'll become assistant composer on that film? Well, time for plan B ...


----------



## Lex

Consona @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> @ Lex: What does _borrowing ideas_ means exactly? It is so vague it hurts my brain. :D
> 
> Did orchestranova borrowed something too? Or did he just make a mistake by naming it _Gotham whatever_?



Don't wanna cause brain pain to anyone, so I'll try to be more specific.

You can watch Inception for example and listen how almost whole third act works as one very long ever evolving cue while never failing to connect with the emotion, characters or action at any given moment...learn from it and apply it to your own creations. You can watch TDKR for example and be fascinated with how a rhythmic pattern can start on Zebra move through percussion then to whole orchestra then back to same lonely Zebra while always firmly being rooted in Banes character....learn from it, see why it works, and apply it to your own work...and I can go on like this forever...especially with some of Zimmer's work...

Or you can disregard all of the above and just write something that "sounds" like a Batman cue, not put much effort in it, call it Gotham Needs a Hero, sell it to a library, post it publicly, call it your own work and then insist on rubbing it in original composers face. 

alex


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## Guy Rowland

Choosing words carefully....

First of all, it seems to me that the title of the track and the thread was, at best, ill-advised. I know that the library music companies in the UK are extremely hot on this kind of thing as they've had their fingers burnt in the past. To reference a film or a composer explicitly is not a good idea at all.

I have every sympathy with Hans' irritation, but it's interesting to look at it from another perspective. Does library music have any validity? It's certainly popular enough. People need a quick, clearable fix for all manner of mundane TV / radio shows. Homes Under The Hammer doesn't require a composer to come up with a new sonic palette for every episode. Mainstream TV (not high end TV drama, mind) is an insatiable user of library music because it's a quick, instant hit, with no legal complexities. They are frequently churning out hours of product per week, want to create an instant vibe as simply as possible, and that's the way of that world.

So with that as a given, it makes sens to me that contemporary styles are reflected in library music. Libraries need big choral trailer tracks, dubstep, gangsta rap and ten thousand other genres, all quickly searchable, downloadable and clearable. And Hans is phenomenally influential - it stands to reason that under Swashbuckling I'd find some cues that sound like Pirates. Is that bad? Is it wrong? I'd like to hear Hans' thoughts.

It's a difficult area. It's not high art, but it is a market. Lex - your analysis of TDKR is terrific and reflecting on Hans' skill can be a true source of inspiration. But it doesn't apply to library music imo - all library can do is create a mood.


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## Kejero

Guy Rowland @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> all library can do is create a mood.



True. Unfortunately, for a lot of film makers (or makers of any media) that's exactly how they view a score: it sets a mood. I know many young film makers, students, who were never properly taught what the function of music can (should?) be in a film. They simply don't realize what the marriage between picture and music truly means. Many of them question why they should hire a composer when they could use stock tracks. The only arguments they can come up with are the lack of coherent texture between tracks and, maybe, the lack of "themes".
Music can be and can do so much more. But I guess it's up to us composers to educate our directors, because nobody else is gonna do it.


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## George Caplan

99% of tv and film is mundane. why would anyone want to put good music to any of that crap? go play in a baroque troup and then talk about music in film and tv. it could drive you insane listening to the stuff put out on tv and film. its all homogenous and it has to be otherwise you would lose most of your todays audiences.
i think stock music is a great idea and for most program makers of crap it must be a godsend. i would buy into a good upandcoming stock music company for sure.


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## germancomponist

Kejero @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Fri Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> all library can do is create a mood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True. Unfortunately, for a lot of film makers (or makers of any media) that's exactly how they view a score: it sets a mood. I know many young film makers, students, who were never properly taught what the function of music can (should?) be in a film. They simply don't realize what the marriage between picture and music truly means. Many of them question why they should hire a composer when they could use stock tracks. The only arguments they can come up with are the lack of coherent texture between tracks and, maybe, the lack of "themes".
> Music can be and can do so much more. But I guess it's up to us composers to educate our directors, because nobody else is gonna do it.
Click to expand...


+1

And more and more it seems to be also a money thing on tv-productions? In the last time I have heared so many bad film music in many german TV productions... .


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## Consona

Rctec @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> Well, Consona, take a look at Fichte's "unbedingter Grundsatz", which deals with "Ich bin ein Ausdruck einer Tathandlung". I think the emphasis is firmly on the "Ich", and not the "borrowed" expression of the "Them"


But _"das Ich und das Nicht-Ich bestimmen sich gegenseitig"_... :D

@ Lex: Thank you for clarification. I can see your point now. It's much more learning how to compose in general than borrowing actual musical ideas like segments of composition, etc.

@ George Caplan: Yea, I can imagine it must be hard to put serious effort to some sub-par tv product. On other hand there is a lot of sub-par big budget films too. But you can build up your name thanks to them to be involved in something more intelligent. Or make enough money to be able to write for some small but interesting projects. But who am I to judge what's good and what's not and I am not in the industry either so I don't know how it works. Thanks to this forum and people willing to share their experience I can learn more about it.


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## Markus S

With all due respect, I feel there is a little bit of hypocrisy here and there. Of course Hans Zimmer is ripped off on the market and massively so. It's not just orchestra nova, who did the bad thing, it's everywhere. So are we here the good guys who get inspired by Hans Zimmer, just the right way, but never too much to rip off.

When I started out about 10 years ago one of the first lessons I was told is : You have to sound exactly like Hans Zimmer, this is what people want to hear. Later when the Batman thing appeared it was like : We need lots of these driving strings tracks, this is the next big thing.

Once in there it is hard to get out. You are usually booked for what you have done before, not what you could do in theory. This copying makes the market very uniform, with interchangeable music everywhere? OK, do you need the big epic sci-fi thing or the big epic mediaval thing?

But at its core, it's simple math, no artistic consideration involved : Zimmer = money / success, do what Zimmer does -> money success. Does it work? Yes, to a certain extend.

I do believe the music library business has its share in there, after all you write "film music without film". So where will your inspiration comes from? I never understood how you can just pop out music for projects without projects and really feel unable to write good library music. (Not all libraries are like this, of course, Videohelper, in example have their own creative and personal way of approaching the market). On the other hand, it's not just this market who became uniform.

What is new to me, is that he (HZ) actually bothers about it (I probably imagine Hollywood composers on their cloud of happiness and success). But I see the point : If you do a nice burger with fresh salad and great meat, do you want to have it copied by Mc Donalds in an oily paper tasting version all over the world? Yes, it degrades the music, I like Zimmer by Zimmer, but not Zimmer by .. . So with all the fast food Zimmers and fast food Elfmans around, when the real deal is to be heard, well yes, it's a bit boring and predictable.

Anyway, what I am saying is : WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF RIPPING OFF ZIMMER.. :D Seriously, the market has a very incisive way of encouraging us to copy, be it by other composers, audio directors, art directors, clients, or whoever. It goes as far as to penalize people who actually do something slightly different.

The problem as stated before, is that you are always second hand, always one step behind, always trying to figure out how stuff is done you actually don't really want to do. And especially : You are always replaceable by anyone who comes along with some technical skill. So it is short sighted to copy, I never felt good with it (and tried to avoid it the best I could) and I'm doing it no more. But you have to start out from zero to do so.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Not all tv music is crap.
Some of us still try to create something that has more artistic value than monetary value when we sit in front of our keyboards.
Not all of us want to sound like the biggest name in scoring, and are actually working hard on refining our unique voice.
Some directors in tv and in film are really open to our new ideas, and love being surprised by something completely different than the temp.
Many of us are called upon to do things that are very far removed from the popular blockbuster sounds of the day.
There is as much to be learned from scores written 60 years ago as there is from recent soundtracks, and this may in fact be a great advantage when competing with colleagues for gigs.
It's easy to be cinical, but more rewarding artistically to be an optimist, as more possibilities are brought to light.
All the incredible libraries in the world will not replace hard work, humility, and big ears.


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## Consona

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Not all tv music is crap.


Of course not. And I think nobody claimed that. It was more about content of product itself than music. But even this proposition is simplification of actual state of affairs. I know a lot of great documentary with great music for example.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

I was responding to this, actually:


George Caplan @ 28/12/2012 said:


> 99% of tv and film is mundane. why would anyone want to put good music to any of that crap?



and this:



germancomponist @ 28/12/2012 said:


> In the last time I have heared so many bad film music in many german TV productions... .





Consona @ 28/12/2012 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all tv music is crap.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not. And I think nobody claimed that. It was more about content of product itself than music. But even this proposition is simplification of actual state of affairs. I know a lot of great documentary with great music for example.
Click to expand...


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## Graham Keitch

Yawn, yawn, yawn ...... what a lot of hot air over 2 minutes of dull, percussive keyboard music that any kiddie could knock together! What a waste of time and probably good samples! Who is this HZ anyway - does he really write stuff like that?

Time to listen to some real music - perhaps a little Holst, Vaughan Williams or Bax!

:wink:


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## cc64

Salut Ned!

Can't speak for George but i think in some way he responded to your post about the fact that library music takes TV scoring jobs from us. 

For my part, i'm with you on the library thing but i have to admit that a lot of stuff i see on TV makes me think i would never want to actually sit down 18 hours/day and write music for...So i'm a bit with George too!

Claude

P.S. We have unattended business my friend o-[][]-o


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## dcoscina

Markus S, not all of us have emulated Hans' style. That said I'm not working in the television or film medium so I don't have to be pressured to follow what's popular. Now Bernard Herrmann and Jerry Goldsmith, yeah I will admit I apply their stylistic tendencies now and then.

BTW- I watched Megamind the other evening and loved the score. I'm getting the sense that Mr Zimmer is using more 5/8, 7/8 meters lately- and I like it!!!

Sorry for the OT. We now return you to the scheduled broadcast.


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## mark812

Rctec @ Thu Dec 27 said:


> mark812 - It's precisely because we are done with the "Batman" trilogy that we released those sounds. They are not relevant to my future...but they where for the last 8 years. I'm not going to use any of them for "Man of Steel". Time for new sounds. But I wanted people to have some fun with them and use them as starting points to create their own.



I know and I couldn't agree more. But I've heard many compositions here that use the same sounds (presets from Dark Zebra) that you used in The Dark Knight trilogy. That's even more absurd than emulating your style imo. You're one of my 3 favorite score composers, I love your work. But I would never use the same sounds as you did..that's just..pointless?


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## Studio E

Just two things, sort of on topic. I have been trying to write film music for almost a decade part time. That's just my situation and I've learned to accept that I won't probably ever be HZ, DE, JNH, or JW. I do get paying work though from local production companies as solid side work from my day job. Because I don't do this full time, I haven't really taken the time to really study other people's work. I am certainly influenced by Hanz and all the the others because I hear their music in the movies all the time and I buy some of it to listen to on iTunes. Because I don't study, I sometimes worry that I will rip off someone without even realizing it. I often really default to the simplest of themes and this probably puts me at even greater risk. Simple like JW does simple only without the immense amount of talent and experience, lol.

Secondly, can I just smile like a real giddy school girl for just a second because I'm on a forum where Hanz Zimmer is talking in the same thread as me? Lol, am I the only one star struck a little? 

Thanks Hanz! For all the great music that I've heard over the years. Very inspiring to say the least.


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## dcoscina

Chiming in again since I actually just now listened to the piece. I dunno, I like it. Yes there is a Zimmerish element or elements here but if you hadn't labelled this a tribute to Hans Zimmer I would have just thought it was influenced by a few composers. That minor 9th is more akin to John Barry's harmonic language than HZ's to be perfectly honest, especially the way its melodic line arcs. But then again, I found some nice Barryisms in Inception so it really speaks to the point that everyone is influenced by others, even someone is established and successful as Hans. And that's not a bad thing. It's just natural. 

I think this piece is very well produced and I'm listening to your other tracks on SoundCloud as I type this and they are all very slick. 

If you care for some constructive input I would offer these comments-

1. Try expanding your harmonic framework. Look for opportunities where you can not only change up the texture (which you do nicely) but also change the chord progressions under your melody. Look outside the normal diatonic framework. Try modulating to a different key. Listen to how John Williams modulates through a series of keys but never feels like he's doing so because his melody is so fluid

2. I know it's not popular at the moment, but try using percussion as a compliment to the rhythmic ostinatos as opposed to layering it on top of the already propulsive lines. Again, you have a good sense of textural contrast which is good- it keeps the piece from being to monotonous. Just go that extra mile and switch things up a bit. 

******

As an aside, I'm not sure why this piece in particular has churned up so much controversy. I've heard much more Zimmer-like pieces from others on this forum. Is it because this piece was used in a music library? 

I will agree with Markus S in that regard of the old "let yee who has not sinned cast the first stone". This seems to be the case here, though if it's actually gotten Mr Zimmer himself to chime in then perhaps there's more to this than I understand....


----------



## George Caplan

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Not all tv music is crap.



no it is not. but most of it is logically bound to be.

for example i think it was you who on another thread about tv music put up the theme to the avengers.

that was stock library music if im not mistaken.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

What logic? Not enough time? Money? Anything is possible these days, with the incredible sounds at our disposal, at a great price/content ratio. Work 12 hours a day, and a lot of good music can be written. Of course, one must have talent, have listened to a lot of good music, maybe had a few great teachers, be curious and take chances, as well.

I don't remember quoting The Avengers (didn't like the movie, and don't remember the soundtrack). But maybe I'm wrong...


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## valexnerfarious

All you guys are lucky...u know ur chords and all this music theory..i only know what my keyboard player shows me and what i read on here....life to short and precious to worry about all this shit that does nothing but hurt and slow down of what we are all here for is to learn and experiment and try to create something that will touch of move the people we present it to...i dont agree with purposely saying "In tribute of"...and then releasing it and making money off of it..thats just dirty..i agree with HZ 100%..if everyone does it..what makes what he does so special and different...find your own voice....i ill never forget what Zimmer said once"The only thing between me and a good piece of music is rolling my sleeves up and doing the work"...that being said is this whole ripping off someones sound and "In tribute of" shit,...what work is there if someone else has already done it for you....i would love to have the knowledge you all have to be able to sit down and write something from a blank page into something wonderful....grow up


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## mverta

There was exactly 24 hours in my life when I had consciously decided to try to sound like Hans Zimmer, and Hans told me not to. That's pretty much a Papal Bull, so I promptly put that to bed. And I'm glad, because that was 2 years ago, and I'd still be working on it, and have yet to have put up a single piece, which brings me to my point:

I doubt it's the "tribute," or "inspiration," or even "imitation" that truly bothers Hans, it's probably that they're _pale_ imitations; cardboard cut-outs; the illusion of the thing, without being the thing.

I've said it countless times; Hans Zimmer's music is not just a collection of spiccato strings, 900-piece horn sections and nuclear bangs. Nor is it a menagerie of sound design wankings blended within tonal harmony. People who throw those things together and think it's "like Zimmer" are akin to people holding some salt, flour and eggs and thinking they've baked a cake. 

Hans' combinations serve specific purposes in specific contexts, have focused intent, and are not random. 99% of the people out there are trying to sound like him, and 99% of them are embarrassing themselves.

I'm glad people have given up trying to sound like Williams, because if I heard one more random woodwind run and clumsy brass fanfare I was going to go all Bakersfield Chimp on somebody. It's the same problem. I recommended in a podcast once that if you REALLY like Hans' music, make a study of it. And we'll see you in a year or 10. Maybe by then you'll begin - just BEGIN - to understand where it comes from, when he does it. You'll have to know his influences, and study them; you'll have to know all his scores - go back to the beginning! - and transcribe them. You'll have to live in his skin for a helluva long time before, FBI-profiler-like, you can begin to think like him.

Or just do something different, why don't ya? Doesn't really matter either way. Honestly, no matter which path you choose, what you will end up with will be uniquely your own because you're your own person, but what I'm saying is this trend of, "Hey I've got Damage, time for some Zimmer" stuff is making you look like a douchebag.

This isn't, by the way, directed specifically at the OP, but the 4-page discussion about the thing of it. 


And I'll tell you something else: today, you have 4 requiste ingredients for 99% of film scores: spiccato strings, loud brass, bangs, and probably a choir. The whole thing has gotten cheesier than an Elvis Christmas song; self-parody bordering on shame. And yet, Hans' work is evolving. Listen to it. It's not going to be this way forever. He can change, because he's not chasing anyone. For the rest of you trying to mould yourself into his outline, rectilinear-kitten style, how long do you want to keep running to where the lighting just struck, hoping to catch it?

Hans knows his harmony. Do you?


_Mike


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## Greg

Music is about finding your OWN voice. Too many composers these days think they need to emulate the best composers in hollywood like Hans to have a successful career. Don't forget that we're all artists and its our job to use this medium to play the unique sound of our own lives and interpretations. Then express that to the world. That is what truly makes a great artist. Composing is an artform NOT just a job


----------



## germancomponist

mverta @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> There was exactly 24 hours in my life when I had consciously decided to try to sound like Hans Zimmer, and Hans told me not to. That's pretty much a Papal Bull, so I promptly put that to bed. And I'm glad, because that was 2 years ago, and I'd still be working on it, and have yet to have put up a single piece, which brings me to my point:
> 
> I doubt it's the "tribute," or "inspiration," or even "imitation" that truly bothers Hans, it's probably that they're _pale_ imitations; cardboard cut-outs; the illusion of the thing, without being the thing.
> 
> I've said it countless times; Hans Zimmer's music is not just a collection of spiccato strings, 900-piece horn sections and nuclear bangs. Nor is it a menagerie of sound design wankings blended within tonal harmony. People who throw those things together and think it's "like Zimmer" are akin to people holding some salt, flour and eggs and thinking they've baked a cake.
> 
> Hans' combinations serve specific purposes in specific contexts, have focused intent, and are not random. 99% of the people out there are trying to sound like him, and 99% of them are embarrassing themselves.
> 
> I'm glad people have given up trying to sound like Williams, because if I heard one more random woodwind run and clumsy brass fanfare I was going to go all Bakersfield Chimp on somebody. It's the same problem. I recommended in a podcast once that if you REALLY like Hans' music, make a study of it. And we'll see you in a year or 10. Maybe by then you'll begin - just BEGIN - to understand where it comes from, when he does it. You'll have to know his influences, and study them; you'll have to know all his scores - go back to the beginning! - and transcribe them. You'll have to live in his skin for a helluva long time before, FBI-profiler-like, you can begin to think like him.
> 
> Or just do something different, why don't ya? Doesn't really matter either way. Honestly, no matter which path you choose, what you will end up with will be uniquely your own because you're your own person, but what I'm saying is this trend of, "Hey I've got Damage, time for some Zimmer" stuff is making you look like a douchebag.
> 
> This isn't, by the way, directed specifically at the OP, but the 4-page discussion about the thing of it.
> 
> 
> And I'll tell you something else: today, you have 4 requiste ingredients for 99% of film scores: spiccato strings, loud brass, bangs, and probably a choir. The whole thing has gotten cheesier than an Elvis Christmas song; self-parody bordering on shame. And yet, Hans' work is evolving. Listen to it. It's not going to be this way forever. He can change, because he's not chasing anyone. For the rest of you trying to mould yourself into his outline, rectilinear-kitten style, how long do you want to keep running to where the lighting just struck, hoping to catch it?
> 
> Hans knows his harmony. Do you?
> 
> 
> _Mike



A good résumé, Mike! 

I've made ​​me some enemies here and elsewhere, because I have criticized this stupid, boring and pathetic copying over and over again. ..

o-[][]-o


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## Graham Keitch

dcoscina @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> 1. Try expanding your harmonic framework. Look for opportunities where you can not only change up the texture (which you do nicely) but also change the chord progressions under your melody. Look outside the normal diatonic framework. Try modulating to a different key.




Hmm, I think you've put things slightly more tactfully than I did above - but it saddens me that just because HZ gets a mention, this composition gets treated as if it was something that deserves special attention. C'mon VI Control - GET A GRIP and use your energies to promote library developers and users that are genuinely helping to progress this wonderful art!

Graham :oops:


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Whatever you may think about the OP's music, this thread has at least the merit of having moved us to talk about more than our tools! 8)


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## germancomponist

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Whatever you may think about the OP's music, this thread has at least the merit of having moved us to talk about more than our tools! 8)



This is one of the best threads on VI Control, if you ask me.

o=< o=< o/~


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## Graham Keitch

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Whatever you may think about the OP's music, this thread has at least the merit of having moved us to talk about more than our tools! 8)



Hi Ned,

Sure, the discussion says more about the industry than tools. The industry is in a pretty sad state (from my observations of this thread - and I'm glad I'm not part of it! - the industry that is) but the tools are something to behold. We've seen some excellent progress this year - WW, choirs etc and long may it continue.

G


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## passenger57

Regarding composer/pianist Franz Liszt (hence the picture)
Liszt was always experimenting and searching for his own musical voice. But that is not always a good thing. For example, Wagner appropriated Liszt's musical experiments for his own evil purposes, which eventually inspired a homeless artist that lead to the death of millions. So in other words, don't try to be too original or someone might get inspired to take over the world and kill 70million people!! 
(sorry this whole thread needed some absurdity)


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## Resoded

Another thing to consider is age. 

Hans Zimmer is 55. Williams is 80. Newman is 57. James Newton Howard is 61. Howard Shore is 66.

I started writing metal when I was 15. It took me 8 years to get a sound remotely close to my own thing. It was a result of several years of gathering experiences, mimicking others, finding what I love. Grow tired of what I love. Evolve what I used to love to something new, that I love even more. Grow tired of that which has evolved, taking another step to find something that I cherish even more. And in all that time, I collected, without even realizing it, a bag full of quirky things I do as a guitarist that apparently no one else does.

It's a journey. 

Which I'm now starting over again, with a new style and new tools. This takes time. Time is precious in a quick fix world. Maybe that's part of the reason why some people choose to only mimic and nothing more? All of these famous composers that I adore have had a lot of time on their journey.

I don't know. What I do know is that I would never diminish that journey that I have done, my continued journey, and more importantly someone elses journey.

Metal has a lot of things in common with the music Hans Zimmer makes. Maybe that's why I love it so much? But when it comes to the "find your own sound" argument. I find it to be a lot easier said than done. And I would not presume to know how other peoples journeys look like. I can't tell if a person is merely being an evil copycat braam-loving moron or a guy on a journey like my own. I respect you guys more than that.


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## RiffWraith

Sorry if this has been stated here already, but....



Greg @ Sat Dec 29 said:


> Music is about finding your OWN voice. Too many composers these days think they need to emulate the best composers in hollywood like Hans to have a successful career.



You are not wrong, but you are wrong. 

Composing music as a standalone entity IS about finding your OWN voice. Composing music for film is NOT about finding your own voice. It's about serving the picture, and following the director's direction. It is NOT about doing your own thing and being unique. I am going to stay away from details here, but I have seen A-list composers fired over not following the temp, and trying to do their own thing. That's not to say that no composer can ever do their own thing; it happens. But if you are an aspiring film composer, and think that you are going to "make it" by doing your own thing and having your own voice - forget it. This industry does not want mavericks. It's funny, because when you have one of those rare occurences, and someone comes along and actually does thier own thing with their own voice - like HZ, for ex., the entire industry says "wow - that's great!!! :D " But then the entire industry falls back to it's old habits, and says to every composer: "did you hear the latest HZ score? Give us something like that!" And if you don't, you're history. Now that's not exactly the way it is in every instance; I am generalizing here. But you get the idea.



Greg @ Sat Dec 29 said:


> Don't forget that we're all artists and its our job to use this medium to play the unique sound of our own lives and interpretations.



No - not as a film composer. Your job is _not _to play the unique sound of your own lives and interpretations; your job is to serve the picture.



Greg @ Sat Dec 29 said:


> Composing is an artform NOT just a job



There are many studio execs, producers and directors in Hollywood who would disagree with that statement 100%.

Cheers.


----------



## Greg

germancomponist @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever you may think about the OP's music, this thread has at least the merit of having moved us to talk about more than our tools! 8)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the best threads on VI Control, if you ask me.
> 
> o=< o=< o/~
Click to expand...


I agree! This is a very interesting subject. Not just arguing about Hans ripoffs but discussing what it means to be a good composer and altruistic artist


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## lee

Id say we wont squeeze any more juice from this topic. Lets move on. I will.


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## Graham Keitch

Resoded @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Hans Zimmer is 55. Williams is 80. Newman is 57. James Newton Howard is 61.



>8o and between them, they have about as much musical ability as .....


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## Ned Bouhalassa

All of us put together, and then some.


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## George Caplan

Resoded @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Another thing to consider is age.
> 
> Hans Zimmer is 55. Williams is 80. Newman is 57. James Newton Howard is 61. Howard Shore is 66.
> 
> I started writing metal when I was 15.




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

im sorry i couldnt get any further than that without cracking up.


soo how old are you now?


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## Rctec

Alright, just some random sentences...Not to be taken too seriously!

I got fired of a TV pilot for - quote "writing music that was too cinematic and emotional". My agent and I thought that a great compliment.

Library music...I always thought one of the great things about writing a library piece would be that you could write exactly what wasn't out there already and easily available. I remember that the old English ITV ten o'clock News Theme came from a snippet of a symphony Johnny Pearson had written...and I know of other big orchestral works that would never have had the chance - or budget - to see the light of day had it not been for a library company to finance the recording. 

Original or Temp? Really, all the temp should say to you is "put some music here". I have never met a director that didnt want to hear an original idea for his movie. But you must have thought the concept all the way through, you must know what you want to say with the last note and how the arc then spans all the way back to the beginning. Just basic story sense. And sometimes it takes them a little while to get it. Which is only natural and fair. You are supposed to be a little bit ahead of the Zeitgeist. And sometimes they are not getting it because you havent figured out how to actually express the idea successfully in music yet. John Williams didn't just go "two notes for the shark...that'll make my life easy". Quite the opposite. Spielberg took a while to be convinced. John Powell once said something so simple and true to me (He does that rather a lot...): "It takes a bit of time to get a movie under your fingers". But when you have it...it becomes undeniable and absolutely That movie.
The other thing to remember about temp is it's fundamental purpose. And I don't mean the little things, like hiding a dodgy edit or making a boring exposition scene fly by. It's much more devious. Unfortunately, a movie - any movie, no matter how big or small it's budget and ambition - only has one day in court, so to speak: The first preview (or the first time you show it to a room full of people you're not related to, or having sex with). That's when The Studio makes up it's mind about how much to spend on marketing, how to support this thing - or quietly let it die. In fact, I would say that this first preview is the only time all the executives are ever going to see the movie. So, how can we possibly argue with a director wanting to put in the best music ever written, from the most successful films, the un-affordable songs - you get the picture. My music editor once temp'ed a scene with the choral version of Samuel Barber's Adagio. Thanks, that gave me three weeks of sleepless nights. (but I didn't rip it off!)

I never bothered wondering "is it Art or entertainment". I dont think Mozart was too bothered either when he wrote a Divertimenti...I have too much fun just being allowed to write and solve puzzles.

No, I don't just write "Batman" movies. "Thelma and Louise" is very different from "Hannibal", or "As Good As It Gets", or "Pirates" (even if the occasional phrase turns up in more then one place - which happens by accident).

Yes, I'm 55 and have done this for a while. There is that great Malcolm Gladwell book, "Outliers", that deals with the idea of the 10000 hours. It's worth reading just for the chapter on The Beatles... And on plane crashes.


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## germancomponist

Rctec @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Yes, I'm 55 and have done this for a while. There is that great Malcolm Gladwell book, "Outliers", that deals with the idea of the 10000 hours. It's worth reading just for the chapter on The Beatles... And on plane crashes.



+ 100! o-[][]-o


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## Peter Alexander

Two Mancini stories.

When I was Hank's tech (right up until he died), I'd go to his home studio on Baroda off Sunset. When you walked into the studio, you saw his desk and a piano facing you and to your immediate right on a small lamp table was, yes, a lamp (!), and a stack of CDs from "all the guys" to keep up with what each was doing.

In one session for full orchestra, sorry I forget what one, he stopped the whole orchestra, stared at the score, and told the bassists to pull out their pencils he was going to dictate a new part. While they were getting, Hank looks at the orchestra and says "That 'guy' really [email protected]#cked up those two notes for the rest of us didn't he!"

Another session, which I think was for Switch (Blake Edwards). I believe the cue had rhythm section, 12 violins, and Ray Pizzi playing a tenor sax solo. Hank stops in the middle, thinks for a second, then says to Ray Pizzi, "that was really good Ray, but it's too much like what Hans did in Driving Miss Daisy. We need to do something different here."

Lesson taught to Peter: _Learn from others but make it your own. Never steal from another composer._


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## mverta

Peter, there's such an obsession about it... every artist begins by imitation of that which inspires them. That's part of it. Who was it who said envy is the start of all true greatness? It's just not the END of it, which is where things seem to be these days. I firmly believe the path is _through_, not "away from" or "around" it. It's like a black hole; you probably can't escape the pull, and maybe there's another universe waiting on the other side if you go through it. Or, you know, spaghettification.

Study enough Ravel, and you can probably write some passable Ravel, but by that point, you've 1) burned out on Ravel or 2) figured out the essence of Ravel and will speak your own ideas in a similar voice. Either way, what you produce will be your own, automatically. The point is, if you're going to do it, do it. Do it all the way. Dive deep.

Despite the fact that I _wanted_ to write like John Williams, I learned to (so far as it goes  ) accidentally - I was writing Big Band tunes, and I was a Jazz pianist and session player, and I was doing Jazz albums, and one day it suddenly occurred to me that the harmonic stuff I dug most in that work, stuff I was already using every day, was actually at the heart of his orchestral music. When I learned years later he was a Jazz pianist, too, that cinched it. The point is, you either have your own ideas or you do not. You don't have to invent an entirely new language to say them in. When people tell me my work sounds like Williams, they're either complimenting me or insulting me, but either way, I no longer have to try; never really did. I like the same stuff he does. Do I like it _ because_ of him, or do I like _him_ because of it? Who the F knows. Or cares. 

Do your damndest to sound like Hans if you love it that much. Do it all day. Do it 24/7 until you can't stand it anymore. Just realize that when you hit that saturation point, it's the beginning of the journey, not the end. I did a pretty popular podcast on this for those interested.



_Mike


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## Peter Alexander

mverta @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Peter, there's such an obsession about it... every artist begins by imitation of that which inspires them.



Let's get it to the bottom line. We learn by imitating, then, hopefully, we extend that learning through practice by making it our own so that what's learned becomes A component of our total vocabulary.

This isn't just true in music. It's true in art and prose writing, too. 

Re: Ravel. You become who you listen to. But to "become" someone like Ravel, you must have a massive piano technique, an absolute mastery of counterpoint and harmony including modes (see Tombeau de Couperin for some rather excellent modal writing), AND a mind that can take what you've learned and combine it with styles that you adapt in unique ways. Additionally, having teachers like Faure and Andre Gedalge weren't exactly millstones. And with Les Apache, Ravel and others formed a community where they could in safety perform their works for one another and get compositional critiques. Similar relationship existed with Holst and Vaughan Williams.

For example, the influence of Gershwin is unmistakable in Ravel's Concerto For the Left Hand and his work, The Child and The Magic, but not Daphnis et Chloe.

Ravel was influenced by but was not a sound alike, as some French reviewers claimed when comparing him to Debussy.


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## mverta

Peter Alexander @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> mverta @ Fri Dec 28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Peter, there's such an obsession about it... every artist begins by imitation of that which inspires them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's get it to the bottom line. We learn by imitating, then, hopefully, we extend that learning through practice by making it our own so that what's learned becomes A component of our total vocabulary.
> 
> This isn't just true in music. It's true in art and prose writing, too.
Click to expand...


Yep, precisely my point. The key caveat there being "through practice"/study. And a ton of it. John "Public Domain" Williams, they used to call him, for his obvious influences. It's a process.


_Mike


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## Peter Alexander

Our acronym for creating learning programs describes what you wrote: DTLD.

Define -> Teach-> Learn-> Do : || (repeat)

All of this evolved out of Quality Control management with the mantra, DRFT (do right first time). 

On analysis I found this:

You can't do it right the first time 
Until you've learned it right the first time.

And you can't learn it right the first time
Until you've been taught it right the first time

And you can't teach it right the first time 
Until you've defined what the end result is 
that you want done right the first time.

And where did I come up with this? Grad school? NO!

Producing all those old "ugly blue books" on Korg, Roland and Yamaha gear so we knew where the starting point of instruction was/was not on any synth, drum machine, or sequencing program.

Once those elements are in place, you can learn quickly, but the key is in the doing and repeating the process. Otherwise, your knowledge is intellectual only without the experience of doing.


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## sstern

Mvert - loved your podcast! I totally agree with that. It's cool to be an inventor and I try to think about new things all the time. But! Its much more important for me to make the music I love and touch people with it and perfect this process everyday. 

Bach hasn't invented anything new - he wrote in the same style as other composers of his time. Bach just had some kind of magic and perfected his art (talking about 10,000 hours - he wrote everyday for his whole life). 

I saw on Alexandre Desplat interview him saying that he hasn't invented anything new - he just came to/chose a style of music that he likes and again, tries to perfect it everyday (the guy lives like a monk - he sleeps, composes, sleeps, composes..). 

I see film music as a prism which gathers what the world music has gathered till the very moment and brings it to the mass audience in a marketable package.. but, with a personal touch of a composer. Inventions happen Around film music (rich concert/classical/academic music history, young jazz and electronic scenes) because inventions are not always accepted by the masses immediately and films industry we are talking about is the industry for the masses. Revolutions are painful - its yields are felt long after, if at all. Just an opinion..


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## jcs88

A great thread with great opinions on all.

I do have to play devil's advocate though; if Hans is so worried/annoyed about people ripping him off (and rightly so), what does he hope to achieve with the upcoming HZ Percussion library? Won't this just exacerbate the problem - quite literally, selling your sound? Perhaps I've miss understood the focus and purpose of the library (it may just be a new set of tools), but with his name and sound (?) and quality on it many people will be drawn to it hoping for an easy HZ sound.

Not that I won't be buying it of course, seeing as the sir got me into scoring in the first place


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## Markus S

dcoscina @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> Markus S, not all of us have emulated Hans' style. That said I'm not working in the television or film medium so I don't have to be pressured to follow what's popular. Now Bernard Herrmann and Jerry Goldsmith, yeah I will admit I apply their stylistic tendencies now and then.



Not speaking of anyone in person - I know there are many exceptions - but of the market as a whole, at least the way I experienced it. It's not only Zimmer either, anything that seems reliable to make money is replicated.


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## mushanga

I’ve waited since HZ’s posts on 26.12 before responding with what I hope will close this very informative and educational thread (at least it has been for me). I’ll start by genuinely thanking all of you who have been kind enough to post comments, all of which I am most grateful for.

The recent interactions in particular have demonstrated very clearly to me, that in learning about the business that I aspire to play a bigger part in henceforth, there are many important considerations, some of which I had perhaps naively overlooked, and others which quite clearly lack clarity, as evidenced by the diversity of opinions expressed. This lack of clarity occasionally can result in offence when no such offence was intended. Furthermore, I now appreciate how such considerations might potentially have broader implications, legal and commercial for example.

Issues that have arisen include, amongst others:

•	Producing music “in the style” of someone well known and highly respected
•	“Copying” music from another composer
•	Using “sounds” generated by another composer within original pieces
•	Reproducing actual material from original compositions in new pieces
•	The potential importance of track titles and their various possible interpretations
•	The relative lack of artistic merit in producing music in the style of another – the issue being more about what constitutes “artistic merit” rather than the copying of a style
•	The potential dilution in audience and commercial appeal (and therefore possibly commercial value) resulting from compositions in the style of a composer who has “active jobs” contemporaneously
•	Library music
•	Library music companies
•	The potential benefits and pitfalls of posting information on public forums

I began roughly 18 months ago producing a short track in the style of HZ at the request of a library music company. A relative novice in the industry at the time, I now realise I might have given greater consideration to some of the above issues before posting on the forum (or indeed giving the track to the requesting company). There was I thinking I was doing something “okay” and “acceptable” where in fact it now appears I may have been a bit impulsive, some would say naive. I had not for one moment thought I might have caused HZ offence, or indeed offended any of you forum participants either. This was never, and still isn’t, my intention. If I have, then please accept my apologies.

Along the way someone referred to a fan producing something in the style of a person they admire. In retrospect, 18 months ago that was probably a pretty good description of me being influenced by my hero. This thread has however taught me about a bunch of other stuff I ought perhaps to have thought about too. Important lessons have therefore been learned.

Do I regret that all this has led to the thread that ultimately resulted from my actions and the many interactions between me, you, my fellow forum members, including HZ – YOU BET I DON’T!

Just think about the minefield we new, young and aspiring composers are strolling along, and the number of ways in which we can potentially shoot ourselves in the feet. We all tread an incredibly difficult path. Most of us will have considered contributing library music in our careers (maybe even HZ). There must be thousands of tracks produced in his style, and so my modest attempt is a mere drop in the ocean. However that doesn’t mean that I should simply ignore HZ’s comments. On the contrary, perhaps we should all give greater thought in future about the ways in which we produce material/tracks for sale and distribution through such companies.

There are thousands and thousands of people seeking to make it in this business. The vast majority of us will not do so, sadly. That is not to say we can’t all get great pleasure from our music making – we can. But to make it to the summit requires something different I suspect. And I also suspect that having succeeded once, to keep producing novel and uniquely identifiable material of the highest quality that remains desirable to the best of the world’s film and TV makers, is even more challenging. I guess there is much further to fall if you’re already at the top of the mountain.

“Gotham Needs A Hero”. I was proud of it at the time, pleased with my compositional progress at the time, thrilled to have been asked to produce something in a particular person’s style, and intending it to be a tribute to one of the people already at the summit, and who I greatly respect. I could have thought about a few other things - but perhaps naively, I didn’t.

Actually, if I’m honest, I can appreciate how people more expert than I might think it to be _“arguably inferior”_.

So where do I go from here?

Well, having had time to reflect, I think I can better appreciate both sides of the coin regarding library music and companies, in particular where the music concerned is in the style of another more established composer. I also think that if I was at the peak of my career with numerous film credits and awards to my name, I too might be a little peeved at a plethora of musical interpretations in my own style, and the potential issue of dilution.

As far as I’m aware, the piece of music I produced has not been sold to, or used by, anyone. And if so, there has therefore been no direct personal commercial gain as a result of it. 

I will draw to my close reminding us about one of the most resonating pieces of advice HZ has offered within this thread. I for one shall be focusing more on my voice from this point on.

Thank you all once again,

Matthew Adam Taylor (orchestranova)

_“You are born with your voice. That’s a given. It’s logical. You are not born with John Williams’ voice…Actually, it can be a bit of a bore and you end up trying to get past it. Now go and see what crazy, wild things you can do with it. Shake it up. Orchestral Psychedelic Country and Western Electronica is coming, trust me!
(p.s…sorry about the rant. And I’m just as guilty to be influenced by my heroes…No need to write a long post pointing it out to me…)"_


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## Rctec

Last words (promise!)...

The world is full of dreamers and sharks. I never took any real offense, but I thought it was a good example of how easy it was to talk a young, naive composer into a potentially hazardous position. 
Just writing music isn't enough if you want to make it your career. You need to know how to navigate the legal jungle a bit - without turning into a bar-room lawyer. Ask for advice - not on a forum, but from an expert (I'm not an expert). We know that there are more than enough lawyers in the world , there are publishers, books...and common sense. Plus, there are all sort of moral issues that come up and are worth pondering. I loved Peter Alexander's stories about the ultimate gentleman -Henry Mancini. I think Mike Verta is one of the greatest creative minds on this forum - and a damn fine composer.
Our copyright gets more and more fragile every day. Our livelihood gets eroded not just by piracy, budget-slashing, but by imitation. Not every musician is a composer. There is a difference between interpreting and originating, but sounding impressive without creative substance has obviously become easier with technology. I don't exclude myself from that criticism. And, once you're lucky enough to be in a position of earning a living as a composer, you better make sure you protect the musicians that are going to add emotion to your music.
The whole debate about how hard it is for the union musicians in L.A. to make a living, how close we are to the stages going dark - it's a complicated subject. It's not just the unions, or budget cuts. I really don't know what undermines the future of a healthy music scene more: budget cuts, union difficulties or being able to have that Hollywood sound at your finger tips from a sample library. I think we need to all protect the hard earned rights that are in place. if the AFM managed to negotiate special payments for their members, it would be crazy backsliding to give that up. it would be the beginning of eroding all the rights that have been won. And if there are problems with doing games and sampling in L.A., it will take more then talking about the sexiness and neighborhood convenience of recording in town. I agree that the L.A. musicians are truly brilliant and I want to protect them. (I'm doing 3 union scores in town this year) But there are other equally brilliant - and stylistically very different players all over the world. Ideally, it should never come down to putting the budget before the talent. Recognizing that we musicians are a global phenomena is different than globalization. Maybe if we stop labeling the musicians of the orchestras as just "Strings" or "Brass", but thought of each and every one of them as an individual talent...
I would bet that if you asked people what scores influenced them most into noticing film music, they'll say -I'm doing this of the top of my head - "Star wars", "Laurence of Arabia", "Raiders", Danny Elfman's "Batman", "Gladiator", "Harry Potter", "Bond"... None of these where recorded in L.A. But I can give you just as many scores that where ("Close Encounters", "The Wizard of Oz", "Psycho", Shawshank Redemption"...). The point I'm trying to make over and over is that - as many horrible things that you can rightly accuse Hollywood or the games industry off, it's the last place on earth that commissions orchestral music on a daily basis. But it all connects back to one simple thing. Talent and the creative process. If you exclude the most horrible bottom end of musical wallpaper, Hollywood or the Game guys have nothing to commission without creative talent. And that's you lot. And with talent comes opportunity, and with opportunity comes a certain responsibility. 
What a rant! Sorry!


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## valexnerfarious

WOW....Hans..Have you ever thought about writing a book..so much great advice and direction


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## Kejero

Rctec @ Sat Dec 29 said:


> [...] sounding impressive without creative substance has obviously become easier with technology.



Very true, and I know that I have found myself guilty of getting so excited, and getting caught up in getting such a realistic sound out of virtual instruments, that I forget to actually do something interesting with them. You know, actually "compose".


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## passenger57

One thing I'd like to add to the subject of originality and something I know every film/tv composer here has to deal with…
*TEMP TRACK LOVE*
Yes, many times we composers end up in the editing room spotting a movie with a director who is absolutely smitten with the temp track. 

A couple cases in point.
1. On a fantasy movie I scored there was a big emotional scene that was temped with the famous James Horner choral piece from GLORY. So I went all out to create something that was original to me as possible while creating the same uplifting emotion. I felt it was one of the best pieces I ever composed, was super proud of it. After hearing, the director’s note was 'Its nice but didn't make me feel the same emotion as the Glory piece’ (banging head against wall) :| 
2. The 'Aggressive Expansion' love. I've lost count how many times I go to score an action movie and that piece is in the temp track! I love the DK score just as much as anybody, but directors and editors are obsessed with it because it can make a mundane scene with limited actors seem amazing. Or as a director recently told me, he likes to temp action scores with Hanz’ music because his music is fun. I certainly don’t blame them, but as a composer I’m immediately at a disadvantage because the movie is temped with the gold standard of film music, top musicians, producers, etc.. while I’m on a very limited budget and timeframe. I'm challenged to make that same scene sound amazing with the same tools everyone else here is using while at the same time trying to sound original. Not an easy task.

The only thing that saves me in the end creatively is making my own sample libraries, sounds and experimenting as much as possible! That’s the key really, constantly experimenting like a mad scientist in the laboratory. Or like they used to say, old wine in new bottles! o


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## Daniel James

passenger57 @ Sat Dec 29 said:


> One thing I'd like to add to the subject of originality and something I know every film/tv composer here has to deal with…
> *TEMP TRACK LOVE*
> Yes, many times we composers end up in the editing room spotting a movie with a director who is absolutely smitten with the temp track.
> 
> A couple cases in point.
> 1. On a fantasy movie I scored there was a big emotional scene that was temped with the famous James Horner choral piece from GLORY. So I went all out to create something that was original to me as possible while creating the same uplifting emotion. I felt it was one of the best pieces I ever composed, was super proud of it. After hearing, the director’s note was 'Its nice but didn't make me feel the same emotion as the Glory piece’ (banging head against wall) :|
> 2. The 'Aggressive Expansion' love. I've lost count how many times I go to score an action movie and that piece is in the temp track! I love the DK score just as much as anybody, but directors and editors are obsessed with it because it can make a mundane scene with limited actors seem amazing. Or as a director recently told me, he likes to temp action scores with Hanz’ music because his music is fun. I certainly don’t blame them, but as a composer I’m immediately at a disadvantage because the movie is temped with the gold standard of film music, top musicians, producers, etc.. while I’m on a very limited budget and timeframe. I'm challenged to make that same scene sound amazing with the same tools everyone else here is using while at the same time trying to sound original. Not an easy task.
> 
> The only thing that saves me in the end creatively is making my own sample libraries, sounds and experimenting as much as possible! That’s the key really, constantly experimenting like a mad scientist in the laboratory. Or like they used to say, old wine in new bottles! o



Personally speaking I actually enjoy talking to directors about the temp score they picked, I like trying to work out what it is about a particular track that is giving them what they want, maybe its the driving pulse...or the thunderous percussion section....very rarely is it the actual '16th note strings or blaring horns' specifically, they may think it is but that's half the puzzle. Once you get a feel for the concept they are after thats where the creative part comes in, how do I turn that concept into music, how does it feel, how does it sound... The easy option here is to imitate, something I'm sure we are all guilty of at times. But really, once you get that concept you can really go anywhere with the orchestration if it fits whats conceptually needed.

Also just wanted to say this thread has been incredible! grats to everyone for staying pretty level headed and no one storming off in a strop  love you guys!

-DJ


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## germancomponist

So many good points in your last post, Hans!


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## mverta

Rctec @ Sat Dec 29 said:


> If you exclude the most horrible bottom end of musical wallpaper, Hollywood or the Game guys have nothing to commission without creative talent. And that's you lot. And with talent comes opportunity, and with opportunity comes a certain responsibility.



This thread can now be closed. Hell, you could almost close the forum after that one.



Oh, and as for this little gem which just sent my ego orbital:



Rctec @ Sat Dec 29 said:


> I think Mike Verta is one of the greatest creative minds on this forum - and a damn fine composer.



1) Right back at ya, Hans.

2) I think the fact that you post here - given that sleep and food are oft-excised luxuries in your life - is generous bordering on "Mother Teresa." There is no greater gift to an eager apprentice than time with a master. I, for one, am beyond grateful.


_Mike


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## Studio E

We're going to need a bigger forum to fit Mike's head now. Lol, just teasing ya


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## Ganvai

Just wanted to give a little +1 to Orchestranova who didn't loose his head in this conversation at the end.

And thanks to Hans for all the very good advices.


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## Guy Bacos

I like to share Danny Elfman's approach on "styles", when he says, he tries to stay away from the trend where film scoring is going when working from one movie to the next, because if you tend to follow that, you start to loose yourself.


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## germancomponist

Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> I like to share Danny Elfman's approach on "styles", when he says, he tries to stay away from the trend where film scoring is going when working from one movie to the next, because if you tend to follow that, you start to loose yourself.



Hm, I am not sure about this. I think this is more of a personal thing and is (only) his opinion of his own experience?


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## Guy Bacos

Everybody's comment here, is their own opinion. This is mine and that was Danny's. I just agree with him. I didn't say it was a page from the New Testament.


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## germancomponist

Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> I didn't say it was a page from the New Testament.


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## Resoded

The work of Mozart and Beethoven is devalued and diluted. How dare people use the orchestra in the same fashion as the legends! Orchestra schmorchestra, everyone of these "classical composers" sounds the same!

I for one will NOT accept this and will proceed to only make music with banjos, rubber gloves and a hyperactive out of tune giraffe named Bork. Try copying my style and you will be sued.


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## passenger57

> I for one will NOT accept this and will proceed to only make music with banjos, rubber gloves and a hyperactive out of tune giraffe named Bork. Try copying my style and you will be sued.


Love this. And of course in no way does the original Star Wars score resemble anything like Holst, Stravinsky or Korngold! Williams should have played it safe and scored it with atonal calliope music to protect himself from a potential lawsuit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AokqzpdA3M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ


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## Guy Bacos

Maybe it's just me but after listening to these 2 videos, I hardly think that anything there qualifies as plagiarism. Four same notes or chords is not very convincing. I had the same reaction for the Home Alone theme, when I saw the movie for the first time. The first few notes are clearly taken from the Tchaikovsky's Trepak dance, but that's ok, so what? He copied a few notes, we don't know where Tchaikovsky copied Trepak from, if so. However, the styles are completely different here. I think it's important to know where to draw the line in terms of "ok" to "imitate", or whatever the proper word may be here.

Let's take the the example of the Warsaw Concerto by Richard Addinsell which was written for the movie Dangerous Moonlight in 1941, purposely written in Rachmaninov's style, since this was the wish of the film maker. I love this piece, it's a great composition with much passion in the writing, but at the same time, he literally plagiarized Rachmaninov's style to do this. So I always see this piece as a masterpiece of great themes but in a plagiarized style, especially since in this case it is so transparent.


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## mark812

_Home Alone_ score always reminds me of Copeland's _Simple Gifts_.


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## germancomponist

This is a wide field! 

Some time ago I wrote a piece in that "old spaghetti western style". Some friends of mine told me that it is very Ennio Morricone like.... . So, have I copied him? I think I did not..... .

I've seen a lot Western films in my childhood and also internalized the music.


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## Guy Bacos

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> Some time ago I wrote a piece in that "old spaghetti western style". Some friends of mine told me that it is very Ennio Morricone like.... . So, have I copied him? I think I did not..... .



And you didn't get sued???


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## germancomponist

He he....! No! 

Very often people ascribe a genre with composers whom they know or whose music they know. That does not mean automatically that something has been copied.


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## Guy Bacos

Em, I was just teasing Gunther.


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## germancomponist

Guy Bacos @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> Em, I was just teasing Gunther.



I know Guy. It is not always easy for me to read between the lines in other languages, but I know you so long now.... .


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## Guy Bacos

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Mon Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Em, I was just teasing Gunther.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know Guy. It is not always easy for me to read between the lines in other languages, but I know you so long now.... .
Click to expand...


Yes, remember when you stole my miniature swiss knife in grade 3?


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## germancomponist

Guy Bacos @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy Bacos @ Mon Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Em, I was just teasing Gunther.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know Guy. It is not always easy for me to read between the lines in other languages, but I know you so long now.... .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, remember when you stole my miniature swiss knife in grade 3?
Click to expand...


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## rJames

About copying Hans Zimmer...

I don't know how many of us have taken Scott Smalley's orchestration weekend class. But I remember him saying something like, "when someone wants you to copy a temp track or asks do you have anything like this, he is really saying that he wants that orchestration." I think I badly paraphrased that to include both temp music and library copies.

The point is that they really want that tempo and blend of instruments, that particular use of rhythm and harmony... well all of the elements of orchestration which Peter Alexander can much better delineate.

When you are at the top like HZ, you are defining these things for a generation. And the music that HZ presents us especially in the darker Batman styles works for a lot of programming. You don't hear music supervisors asking for, "do you have anything in the style of Driving Miss Daisy," no matter how great that music might be.

I don't know but it seems inevitable that there will be knock off after knock off by just trying to capture the orchestration style.

Sure, it must be unnerving to hear bad copies of bad copies of bad copies as the original is watered down through many months of , "do you have anything like this," but (it seems like) a small price to pay for being at the top.


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## Consona

passenger57 @ Sun Dec 30 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AokqzpdA3M
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ


This is an outrage! :lol: 

I can remember very clearly that moment when I was listening to Wagner and that passage from the first example from the second video popped up. The strongest sensation of déjà vu in my entire life. :D


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## mducharme

Consona @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> passenger57 @ Sun Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AokqzpdA3M
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ
> 
> 
> 
> This is an outrage! :lol:
Click to expand...


How so? At least in the second video, he is referencing some of the best known pieces that everybody would recognize, or at least those with more exposure to concert music. I already recognized all of the Stravinsky quotes in his music before, in particular the desert music and the repeated Rite of Spring chord from the death star. It does not bother me one bit. To me, it is like a composer stating a few notes from a well known national anthem. It would not be the composer's fault if someone didn't recognize "La Marseillaise" and thought the composer wrote the tune.

Quotes from Alexander Nevsky (Prokofiev) occur in Horner and John Barry and all sorts of other composers music (I can't count the number of times I've heard 'Crusaders in Pskov' imitated in some score). Again, a very popular piece of music to quote from. Although in the case of early Horner, more extended passages of music would sometimes rely on the devices from the quoted music, which makes it a bit more dubious.

I would be more bothered if I heard a famous composer quoting from some composer or some piece that was not well-known.


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## passenger57

Personally I love these kind of quotes (The Alexander Nevsky quote in Star Trek II was brilliant) and it made me a fan of classical music when I was a kid. 

Lets not forget the classical composers were quoting each other all the time. 
Even in modern times too...
Bob Dylan had this to say about the subject..

"Oh, yeah, in folk and jazz, quotation is a rich and enriching tradition," he responded. "That certainly is true. It's true for everybody, but me. There are different rules for me. And as far as Henry Timrod is concerned, have you even heard of him? Who's been reading him lately? And who's pushed him to the forefront?... And if you think it's so easy to quote him and it can help your work, do it yourself and see how far you can get. Wussies and pussies complain about that stuff. It's an old thing - it's part of the tradition. It goes way back."


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## Consona

mducharme @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> Consona @ Mon Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> passenger57 @ Sun Dec 30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AokqzpdA3M
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IV5u9iwuQ
> 
> 
> 
> This is an outrage! :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How so?
Click to expand...

That emoticon...



mducharme @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> I would be more bothered if I heard a famous composer quoting from some composer or some piece that was not well-known.


Why? I thought emphasis is on interestingness of the piece than it's well-knowness.

Cannot wait to quote that two note Batman theme in some of my compositions. :lol: /sarcasm.


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## JAM

Obviously the Batman score has produced some imitations because it's a wonderful piece . . . but is a music score such as Batman being imitated because it dosen't seem to have a prominent melody in the title sequence? Perhaps leaving the door a little wider open?

In the past Motion Picture Scores of a certain genre certainly had a lot of melody, where as presently it appears that some film scores of today are perhaps more like underscores that are acting as the main title sequence piece? I'm not complaining about this as I like many of today's scores ..... but just wondering?


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Sounds like the start of a whole other conversation. Perhaps you should start a new Topic specifically about melody and lack of in many current scores?


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## Dean

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Feb 23 said:


> Sounds like the start of a whole other conversation. Perhaps you should start a new Topic specifically about melody and lack of in many current scores?



I agree with Ned,.lets keep this brilliant thread on track
. D


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## Simon Passmore

Peter Alexander said:


> Let's get it to the bottom line. We learn by imitating, then, hopefully, we extend that learning through practice by making it our own so that what's learned becomes A component of our total vocabulary.
> 
> This isn't just true in music. It's true in art and prose writing, too.
> 
> Re: Ravel. You become who you listen to. But to "become" someone like Ravel, you must have a massive piano technique, an absolute mastery of counterpoint and harmony including modes (see Tombeau de Couperin for some rather excellent modal writing), AND a mind that can take what you've learned and combine it with styles that you adapt in unique ways. Additionally, having teachers like Faure and Andre Gedalge weren't exactly millstones. And with Les Apache, Ravel and others formed a community where they could in safety perform their works for one another and get compositional critiques. Similar relationship existed with Holst and Vaughan Williams.
> 
> For example, the influence of Gershwin is unmistakable in Ravel's Concerto For the Left Hand and his work, The Child and The Magic, but not Daphnis et Chloe.
> 
> Ravel was influenced by but was not a sound alike, as some French reviewers claimed when comparing him to Debussy.


Ravel's playing wasn't actually that good (he couldn't even play a handful of his pieces).... which makes his writing even more incredible


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