# Tilted speakers.



## Valérie_D (Jan 7, 2022)

Dear all,

Your earnest opinion would be most appreciated regarding this setup.

I was planning on getting a larger table for my 3 screens since my speakers are at the same height of my ears but are blocked by the screens.

Some of you commented on Pinar T.'s setup earlier this ear, regarding her speakers that were too high for mixing, although she is slouching a bit on the picture so maybe the speakers are not too high after all.





Alan Silvestri uses tilted speakers, which I never heard of so thank you for your opinion if you wish to comment.


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## Kent (Jan 7, 2022)

Hopefully this metaphor* makes sense:

You know in Star Wars Episode II where the Fetts set off seismic charges to rid themselves of Obi-Wan?






Imagine sound propagating from your monitor like that—along a plane.

If your monitors are flat, propagating along a plane that directly intersects with your ears/head is decently easy; all they need to be is the right height, and thus the plane of the monitors = the plane of the ears.

If they are tilted, though, then that plane of propagation only intersects with the plane of the ears in one spot. In other words, the effective listening location becomes very very localized, and even a small deviation from that spot can mean a wildly different auditory experience.

Now, such things must be done, depending on the physicality of the room/setup, but I'm not sure it's ever a first choice.



*which is fuzzy and simplistic, and might in fact be a simile; don't @ me brah


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## Valérie_D (Jan 7, 2022)

Interesting, you mean the sweet spot would be very precise.
*I meant slightly tilted but you might be right that it can influence the sound.

Any comments on P. Toprak's or A. Silvestri's setup is most welcome since there might be advantages and inconvenience.

My goal is to either have the screens side by side with the speakers a little higher or simply have a larger table so the speakers are not blocked by the screens and aligned with my ears.

Monitors : Neumann KH 120
The 2 additional screen are a bit smaller, 32''.


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## gamma-ut (Jan 7, 2022)

A lot depends on the speaker design itself and its dispersion profile. Some monitors are designed to be aimed (though from what I've seen, it's generally better if they aren't); in other cases you are actually better off using them with the speakers pointing straight out because the sweet spot is not actually with the cones being aimed straight at you. This can be particularly noticeable with stereo imaging.

With near-fields it can be tricky because the sound field changes so radically in the small space you want to use them. Far-fields are more tolerant - but you need a room the size of a barn to use them.


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## Bee_Abney (Jan 7, 2022)

I don't know the science behind it, as I remain unclear on the width of the core sound or the amount of dispersion. I would think that tilting or having the speakers a little too high without tilting are both less problematic than blocking the speakers with screens.

My speakers are currently a little high, but at least I can raise myself out of my chair when I need a clearer impression. They used to be obscured by my monitors.

I am struggling to get mixes that work in different formats, so I try to listen to things on multiple devices and from different positions, including using headphones.

These are very much the speculations of a beginner at production, but these would be my guesses: If you are doing your own mastering, it will be important to get a true sense of the sound. A little less so for mixing, because the mix is not the final product until it's mastered. And for the initial composition, some degree of imperfection should rarely be a problem.

But, from experience, albeit limited, getting the speakers out from the monitors is going to make such a big difference that it may be all you need.


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## IFM (Jan 7, 2022)

Valérie_D said:


> Interesting, you mean the sweet spot would be very precise.
> *I meant slightly tilted but you might be right that it can influence the sound.
> 
> Any comments on P. Toprak's or A. Silvestri's setup is most welcome since there might be advantages and inconvenience.
> ...


I have those Neumann's and they are fantastic. What I use and if you have the space is a pair of these.





On-Stage - Desktop Monitor Stands - SMS4500-P


Perfect for mixing desks, this pair of our SMS4500-P Desktop Monitor Stands provides stable support for small speakers while reducing tabletop rumble and soundwave reflections. Adjustable height and platform angle facilitate precise speaker placement to optimize sound in a variety of spaces...




on-stage.com





That allows me to clear the side monitors and point down into the correct plane.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 7, 2022)

IFM said:


> I have those Neumann's and they are fantastic. What I use and if you have the space is a pair of these.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That would be my best option but I was not sure if my speakers would be too high for me, even though I am tall (about 5'11).


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## Mike Greene (Jan 7, 2022)

It's basically a "Battle of the Monitors," because the video monitors and audio monitors both want to be in the same place. It looks like Pinar and Alan (as would I) both decided the video monitors win. I'm sure they both wish the speakers could be lower, but compromises have to be made, sort of like how we also have a "Battle of the Keyboards" (QUERTY and MIDI).

My general feeling on audio monitors - and this is just _my_ opinion - is that it's more important to _like_ how your speakers sound, rather than getting too worried about how accurate they are. You want to make sure you enjoy working, because that enjoyment is going to be what keeps you going. If the monitors or positioning have minor inaccuracies, your ears will adjust and compensate pretty quickly IMO. (Boomy or tinny speakers will obviously be problematic, but none of us here would "like" boomy or tinny speakers. I'm obviously just talking about a certain quality level and above.)

So if your speakers at the current height sound good to you, then I'd leave it at that. The science behind having your audio monitors at the same height as your ears is certainly valid, of course, but so are a wealth of other "problems" you probably have in your room. Your ears figure them out pretty quickly, without you even realizing they're doing it. Heck, there are some pretty successful engineers who can barely hear 10k, yet they crank out amazing mixes. Ears and brains know how to compensate.

Again, though, this is just my opinion.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 7, 2022)

I think my screens would be a bit far apart if I left the monitors where they are now, I would probably end up with a torticolis.

..Thank you! I really appreciate your kind and most insightful replies.


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## tack (Jan 7, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> It's basically a "Battle of the Monitors," because the video monitors and audio monitors both want to be in the same place. It looks like Pinar and Alan (as would I) both decided the video monitors win.


I like this framing. I made the same choice as well, going with width rather than height. I love how my speakers sound -- the stereo imaging is sublime -- but yes, it's extremely sensitive to head positioning. Always tradeoffs.

Edit: another tradeoff was placing my speakers horizontally. Yet more of the planar problem Kent described, but ultimately I decided having the tweeters at ear level sounded best.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 7, 2022)

The screens wins in Hans's studio as well :


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2022)

Mike Greene said:


> Again, though, this is just my opinion


It's mine too, so now you can be sure you're right, 

Hey, there's no law against angling speakers up or down or splaying them inward so they point at your ears. There's also no law about equilateral triangles - it just has to be an isosceles triangle (i.e. you need to be in the middle).

And most importantly, the 1 meter placement thing you read about all over the Internet is what's known in Britain as utter bollox. Different speakers want to be different distances from your ear, in different rooms.

Even more importantly than most importantly... while placement is very important, you also need to work!

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Pinar T's setup in that picture.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 7, 2022)

When I studied in the electroacoustic department at L'Université de Montréal, it was common knowledge that when the speakers are too high, there is a risk to mix too loud (around 10db too loud). Hence all the questions this fine morning.


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## ReelToLogic (Jan 7, 2022)

Valérie_D said:


> The screens wins in Hans's studio as well :


I also have my speakers over my screens, tilted down, and I've totally gotten used to it. And I've found Mike's comment about your ears to be very true. I have two sets of monitor speakers to compare when mixing and when I first switch it sounds totally different, but after a while my brain/ears compensate and I sometimes forget that I switched. I've concluded that *learning* your monitors, in whatever configuration, is the key - as long as your monitors are reasonable quality.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2022)

Valérie_D said:


> When I studied in the electroacoustic department at L'Université de Montréal, it was common knowledge that when the speakers are too highs, there is a risk to mix too loud (around 10db too loud). Hence all the questions this fine morning.


That's interesting. I've never heard that.

Doesn't it depend on the room?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 7, 2022)

ReelToLogic said:


> I also have my speakers over my monitors, tilted down, and I've totally gotten used to it. And I've found Mike's comment about your ears to be very true. I have two sets of monitors to compare when mixing and when I first switch it sounds totally different, but after a while my brain/ears compensate and I sometimes forget that I switched. I've concluded that *learning* your monitors, in whatever configuration, is the key - long as your monitors are reasonable quality.


Bob Katz (prominent mastering engineer) was appalled on Facebook when I admitted to liking my UREI 809As, despite their obvious flaws.

But I like to use them when I'm playing - meaning they're my big monitors - and also as another reference just like you use your speakers, because they're *very* different from my primary speakers.


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## davidson (Jan 7, 2022)

You could do what I did and switch from 3 monitors to a single 48" 4k tv. No more twisting my head like the exorcist, no more crazy monitor placement...it's perfect!


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## Jimbo 88 (Jan 7, 2022)

Personally, as a composer, I prefer to compose on not so good speakers. Use to have a pair of Radio Shack speaker that were perfect. (Minimus 7s?). Nice sound that did not induce ear fatigue.

Mixing, on the other hand, requires a different listening situation. The composers pictured and mentioned are not mixing the final project. So having the monitors above and pointing down is fine.


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## Double Helix (Jan 7, 2022)

Reminded by @Jimbo 88's post about composing and mixing being two utterly different scenarios. . . 
Millennia ago, I read an article in _Mix_ magazine about a studio that was able to broadcast its clients' mixes-in-progress over the radio so that clients could go out and ride around in their car to compare what the tracks were actually going to sound like, as opposed to the huge state-of-the-art system in the control room
(Perhaps members of VI-C can remind me or even find a link to that article if it's still around, but this was in the pre-Internet days. @Mike Greene has been in the game for quite a while, so maybe he remembers--or maybe it was his studio).


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## Dietz (Jan 7, 2022)

Valérie_D said:


> When I studied in the electroacoustic department at L'Université de Montréal, it was common knowledge that when the speakers are too highs, there is a risk to mix too loud (around 10db too loud).


Hmmmmm .... This sounds very much like a snippet of information taken out of context. I've never heard of anything like that. If it were true, we'd have a serious problem with all our 3D mixes.  

FWIW: I decided to stick with comparatively small video monitors and tolerate one of my speaker sets at an unusual height (but these are Munros which were built to be aimed freely at the listener anyway, so that's not a problem).


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## Mike Greene (Jan 7, 2022)

Double Helix said:


> Reminded by @Jimbo 88's post about composing and mixing being two utterly different scenarios. . .
> Millennia ago, I read an article in _Mix_ magazine about a studio that was able to broadcast its clients' mixes-in-progress over the radio so that clients could go out and ride around in their car to compare what the tracks were actually going to sound like, as opposed to the huge state-of-the-art system in the control room
> (Perhaps members of VI-C can remind me or even find a link to that article if it's still around, but this was in the pre-Internet days. @Mike Greene has been in the game for quite a while, so maybe he remembers--or maybe it was his studio).


I don't remember that article, but what a great gimmick! (Only in my dreams would Mix or any of the other magazines feature my studio. I'll mention that our own Nick Batzdorf was editor for one of them: Home & Studio Recording.)

We (and every other studio) would give clients cassettes that they could play in their cars, of course, but the radio trick would be even slicker. And helpful! There were a couple times that clients had radio station connections and they'd get DJs to play their "sneak peek" tapes, and it was very educational to see how the mixes translated to radio.


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## Valérie_D (Jan 7, 2022)

Dietz said:


> Hmmmmm .... This sounds very much like a snippet of information taken out of context. I've never heard of anything like that. If it were true, we'd have a serious problem with all our 3D mixes.
> 
> FWIW: I decided to stick with comparatively small video monitors and tolerate one of my speaker sets at an unusual height (but these are Munros which were built to be aimed freely at the listener anyway, so that's not a problem).


*We experienced it in concert, the music was played too loud when students were sitting down so the teachers would ask us to present our music standing up.


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## Pier (Jan 7, 2022)

Kent said:


> If they are tilted, though, then that plane of propagation only intersects with the plane of the ears in one spot. In other words, the effective listening location becomes very very localized, and even a small deviation from that spot can mean a wildly different auditory experience.


Maybe you simplified it too much for the example but sound is not flat but 3d.

Sound coming from the tweeters is very much like a cone. If you're into building speakers tweeter specs typically have vertical and horizontal dispersion angles.

Sound coming from the woofers (or sub woofers) is much more like a sphere, or omnidirectional.

Personally I don't think there will any problem using tilted speakers. Sure, the center spot will be higher, but I'm sure one does get used to it pretty quickly.

Tilted speakers might even be necessary these days if you want to mix in Atmos.


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## Nimrod7 (Jan 7, 2022)

I am using a 2 monitor setup, one tilted upfront (main), and one larger on the back. That way there is space for the monitors to be at ear level.






Now for 3 monitors, I like @charlieclouser setup with 3 displays touching on the desk, tilted. If the displays are not massive probably it will be enough space for the studio monitors to be behind at ear level.





​


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## Kent (Jan 7, 2022)

Pier said:


> Maybe you simplified it too much for the example but sound is not flat but 3d.
> 
> Sound coming from the tweeters is very much like a cone. If you're into building speakers tweeter specs typically have vertical and horizontal dispersion angles.
> 
> ...


That’s what “don’t @ me” means 😎


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## Macrawn (Jan 7, 2022)

IFM said:


> I have those Neumann's and they are fantastic. What I use and if you have the space is a pair of these.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That seems ideal. And you have the face of the speakers even with or slightly in front of the monitors so part of the field won't bounce off the back of the monitors.

I like how some people put the audio monitors tilted above their screens but the monitors are still behind the screens so the lower part of the field is still hitting the back of the monitors.

By the way the visual set up just looks sweet too!


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## PaulieDC (Feb 16, 2022)

Tilted are fine, if anything, might slightly help reducing room accentuation of standing waves. As long as the tweeters are pointed at your ears, you’re good. Low frequencies spread all over the place so they are fine coming from your excellent KH 120s. If anything, try to treat the walls behind the speakers. I did that behind my KH 80s and was surprised how clarity increased. Probably because what gets reflected off the monitors hits the wall and gums up the sound. Granted, my setup has to be close to a wall. Anyway, what I have up are inexpensive tiles from Amazon. In fact, I got my speakers up at the perfect height AND got some vibration absorption by setting the speakers on a 12 dollar pair of yoga blocks. So tilt away, and if feasible, soak up some vibrations behind and you’ll be good to go.


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## creativeforge (Feb 17, 2022)

Valérie_D said:


> Dear all,
> 
> Your earnest opinion would be most appreciated regarding this setup.
> 
> ...


Hi Valerie,

Not a big setup in my case, but wanted to share the kind of stand I use to tilt my nearfields slightly. I also use an Ikea shelf masquerading as a bridge. Behind the speakers I used ROXUL slabs from Home Depot, covered with tarps used by painters to cover floors. Quick, cheap and it does seem to make a difference. 

Hope this help!












Standing up:






Sitting down:


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## fakemaxwell (Feb 17, 2022)

If your speakers are too high...turn them upside down!


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## aeliron (Feb 17, 2022)

Kent said:


> Hopefully this metaphor* makes sense:
> 
> You know in Star Wars Episode II where the Fetts set off seismic charges to rid themselves of Obi-Wan?
> 
> ...


So many lessons from Star Wars!


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## aeliron (Feb 17, 2022)

creativeforge said:


> Hi Valerie,
> 
> Not a big setup in my case, but wanted to share the kind of stand I use to tilt my nearfields slightly. I also use an Ikea shelf masquerading as a bridge. Behind the speakers I used ROXUL slabs from Home Depot, covered with tarps used by painters to cover floors. Quick, cheap and it does seem to make a difference.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Doesn't the monitor block some of the, you know, sound thingies from the speakers?


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## b_elliott (Feb 17, 2022)

Valérie_D said:


> Your earnest opinion would be most appreciated regarding this setup.


You might do well to cut through the opinions (mine) and listen to this audio authority on speakers (Floyd Toole). 

During his speech multiple graphs are displayed showing the results from extensive double blindfold audio testing. I seem to recall speakers have @ 30 degree output radius which provides optimum sound for multiple listeners. (Think home theater owners who want family and friends to be able hear equally well.)

My takeaway was that room and speaker resonances are the bigger concern (especially if you require a flat room to mix in.)

It could be as simple as your room and speaker placement are a non-issue. Do a listen through the following for certainty:



Hope this is helpful,
Bill


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## gsilbers (Feb 17, 2022)

Valérie_D said:


> The screens wins in Hans's studio as well :



in general its the remote control setup. The speakers tilted is fine since the tweeters is pointing in your direction.


I have a pair of adjustable speaker stands and with the highest position i can set it up like that.

A couple things to consider. I got a pair of asus monitors that the stands didnt go too low and i wanted to get a adjustable very low profile screen stand adapter but the asus just had a wierd connection so the most common ones didnt work and the available ones where too expensive.
My main monitor is an lg wide screen and it does go very low so im happy with that one but the side ones are a bitt too high.
pinars side monitors are a lot smaller than the main one. helping the monitors not be so high. also because the higher it goes the more titled it has to be which might be too much and risk falling. I have some soft rubber monitor stubs to raise the back and make them incline a bit. alan is using more specific specific monitor stands which miht be more expensive.

At the end its about being confortable and making it sound balanced. Theres certain separation to theback wall, room acustic and treatment that will help but its not until you try in your room that you'll know.
I do know people in the gearspace acustic forum that treat this sort of thing like a religion and anything besides spending like $50k makes little sense to them.

My only advice would be to look a little beyond the remote control setup. These folks have assistants, pay poeple to set things up, music gets mixed in pro studios and have nothing short of a million dollar enterprise running under them. So trying to emulate that might get you frustrated. .I did to me when i tried to do it back in the day when i went to remote control and saw all that... (way back , before youtube!) and realized i dont work like them and its hard to set it up and its hella expensive. But you can get close nowadays of course. the pro tools tape recorder is not necesary to many here etc. but dont feel thatyou need all that gear. i think rememer seeing trevor morris setup and it was like 28 pcs for samples! now he using just one mega loaded mac i think. 

anyways... there are others ways.
for example, using a ultra wide monitor so you dont have to use separate monscreens. and this way be able to put the speakers in the normal fashion.
And there is also this:








Film and television composer | Robert Duncan


Official website of film and television composer Robert Duncan, composer of S.W.A.T., Timeless, Castle, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The Unit, Terriers, Spark: A Space Tail and more.




www.duncanmusic.com




with the screen in the middle, speaker on the side and extra screens on the outside of the speaker.
just different ways..


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## G_Erland (Feb 17, 2022)

Double Helix said:


> Reminded by @Jimbo 88's post about composing and mixing being two utterly different scenarios. . .
> Millennia ago, I read an article in _Mix_ magazine about a studio that was able to broadcast its clients' mixes-in-progress over the radio so that clients could go out and ride around in their car to compare what the tracks were actually going to sound like, as opposed to the huge state-of-the-art system in the control room
> (Perhaps members of VI-C can remind me or even find a link to that article if it's still around, but this was in the pre-Internet days. @Mike Greene has been in the game for quite a while, so maybe he remembers--or maybe it was his studio).


Ive read that Jack White does that Im pretty sure, sound on sound i think, a while back but that long id say..so is prob another example rather than the one you read about..


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