# Altiverb - Fox Scoring Stage now up



## Rob Elliott (Jun 27, 2008)

Oh baby!!! (dl'ing now)


http://www.audioease.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1214574696 (http://www.audioease.com/cgi-bin/forum/ ... 1214574696)


----------



## nomogo (Jun 27, 2008)

Dangit... as if my wallet isn't hurting enough... now I have to start pining for Alitiverb too!
>8o


----------



## tgfoo (Jun 27, 2008)

Rob,

If you get a chance, would you mind posting a short example (doesn't have to be anything elaborate) or something using Todd AO and then something using Fox for a comparison?


----------



## John DeBorde (Jun 27, 2008)

thanks for the heads up Rob. will check out soon. =o


----------



## Waywyn (Jun 27, 2008)

I am sitting here and comparing that new Fox stage with the Todd AO and all the other scoring stages intensively.


Is it just me or is there a significant difference in the recordings between the Todd AO and all the other impulses from Audioease?

I mean I am aware that the FOX stage seems to sound way smaller than the ToddAO, but apart from that, I have the feeling that the FOX stage's sound is just not from outer space as ToddAO is.

Please don't see that as ranting, but I also had problems with the all the other IRs made by Audioease. If you compare them to the ToddAO stage it is really a big difference.

Now the big question is. Did the ToddAO IR recording team simply a better job?
I somehow hear more warmth, more presence, more everything in that IR compared to all the other Audioease produced IRs.

Maybe I got glared by the gear which was used when they did the ToddAO back then compared to the stuff the Audioease team is using?

Not sure - what do you think? I would be really glad to have some input on this


----------



## Rob Elliott (Jun 27, 2008)

Waywyn - My feelings exactly. TODD AO is nothing short of STUNNING - even compared to the little I listened to on the Fox one.

What Todd AO does to SAMPLES (polish, warm, etc.) is nothing short of a miracle. Unless I have a odd request - TODD AO is my go to - still.


tgfoo - sorry just getting really pressed on this mix for the next 4-5 days. Fox is nice but nothing compared to Todd AO.

Rob


----------



## Waywyn (Jun 27, 2008)

Thanks Rob, thought it's just my crap ears )

Which would lead me to the question how the IR would sound if the Todd AO team would have recorded it.

I mean I hope I don't get blended by all that gear they use when recording the ToddAO IR, but I somehow feel that the IRs made by Audioease could be much better in quality rather than using that little Genelec speaker and just a mic to a preamp.

I mean, an IR doesn't only mean a little "wiiiiiuuuuuuuuooooo" signal with a bit of reverb after recording. There is (or should be) so much precious info in it.


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Jun 27, 2008)

If you were actually recording at Fox and most other stages you would still throw a verb on top of your mix. If you plan to use it think of it that ways.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Jun 27, 2008)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Jun 27 said:


> If you were actually recording at Fox and most other stages you would still throw a verb on top of your mix. If you plan to use it think of it that ways.




That is probably right Craig. I just might try that - use Fox and then add my Wizoo on top.

Let's see. :D 

Rob


----------



## Waywyn (Jun 27, 2008)

Craig Sharmat @ Fri Jun 27 said:


> If you were actually recording at Fox and most other stages you would still throw a verb on top of your mix. If you plan to use it think of it that ways.



Yeah right Craig. I think that was the way FOX is good for. To actually have a good sounding room with not too much changing character to be able to throw IRs or Lexicons over it ...

... but somehow I have the feeling that FOX would just sound different. I mean when I listen to the Todd AO and be aware of that it is a total different hall, I would still think that those engineers had way more plan in recording the IR signals than the Audioease guys. I mean Altiverb is just great .. period!

... but after hearing the ToddAO I have the feeling I know what is possible when recording IRs really excellent.


----------



## david robinson (Jun 27, 2008)

waywyn,
i am going to buy Altiverb very soon.
but your comments trouble me.
could you please elaborate on what you don't like about audio ease's sample expertise,
when compared to the Todd-AO IR's?
thanks for your time.
DR9.


----------



## Jack Weaver (Jun 27, 2008)

OK, I've been mixing the Fox IR's for the last two hours. I thought I'd have something to post today. 

Goin' back to Todd AO now. Well, that was a fun little experiment. 

I see what you guys mean about it. Putting another 'verb on top of it would be the way to go. 

Interestingly the Numerical Sound Hollywood Impulses Responses is exactly that - IR's from major sound stages beefed up by adding other digital reverbs. 

I kinda like it for the right things. 

Oh, by the way DR9, there is nothing wrong with Altiverb per se. The Todd AO IR is one that is offered by AudioEase, Altiverb's manufacturer. Just as the Fox IR is offered by them. It just seems to be the early verdict that most of us seem to like the results with Todd AO a bit better.


----------



## rJames (Jun 27, 2008)

david robinson @ Fri Jun 27 said:


> waywyn,
> i am going to buy Altiverb very soon.
> but your comments trouble me.
> could you please elaborate on what you don't like about audio ease's sample expertise,
> ...



IMHO Altiverb is a must have. You don't want just one room! Todd AO can be a bit overwhelming. I use EWQLSO mostly. No doubt it is great with VSL.

But putting stuff into the mausoleum IRs is very cool. There are many different and great sounding rooms. I'm still experimenting. But haven't found too much use for Todd AO. Is really adds weight, which can be good or bad.

Having the Stereo to stereo impulses for virtually (all?) rooms is important when anything is coming out of a stereo source. If you are panning mono sources then you go for the mono to stereo and use POST PAN sends.

There is a lot of variety and you will find your favorites too. maybe Todd AO, who knows.


----------



## Mahlon (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm quite liking the Teldex, too, as well as Todd AO. Actually right now, using both -- together. Also the.... I can't remember the impulse..... I think it's Esterhazy? Sounds very much like Todd AO, but a little brighter and smaller.

Mahlon


----------



## rJames (Jun 27, 2008)

I put my trap kit into the Live Room 1 at Cello. Great stereo bounces to fill the space. short but really changed/added to the sound.

For me Altiverb is about dimension.


----------



## Waywyn (Jun 28, 2008)

david robinson @ Sat Jun 28 said:


> waywyn,
> i am going to buy Altiverb very soon.
> but your comments trouble me.
> could you please elaborate on what you don't like about audio ease's sample expertise,
> ...



David,

don't get me wrong. Altiverb is a "must have" in every studio environment. Especially if you are a composer and/or sounddesigner working with samples. Every IRs are of course top notch and I am using it every day - but I am just talking about the scoring stages.

I only used Altiverb since I purchased it back then (well or to put it better as soon as Audioease was able to pull out the VST version for IntelMac which took around over 6 months )

But when the ToddAO IR was released it was a like complete blast to my ears in a beautiful way. I really don't overdo here, but it really felt like working with a low or high cut all the time for about months ... and suddenly someone sets this EQ to bypass. All those nuances and little room information in that Todd AO IR was so completely different to the Audioease recorded scoring stages that it almost felt like an acoustic firework.

Now with that Fox scoring stage released I expected a bit more. Again, I am really aware that the Fox stage is a completely different room than the ToddAO, but I definitely have the impression that there are much better ways to capture a good IR signal than the Audioease guys were doing. Especially for such a stage.

If you read back the info on the Audioease page about the Todd AO IR, it was recorded by another team (taken from the Audioease website):

_The process: "Marc and I sampled the stage in the spring of 2005, using Simon Rhodes' mics and speaker. We sampled from midnight on to avoid any extraneous city noises. The stage’s acoustical dampening panels, were all down for this session. We placed a B&W 801D in (9) measured positions and did (9) sweeps, never moving the microphones. We used a Pro Tools HD rig, with Genex I/O at 48k. The podium mics were Neumann M150s through Avalon preamps. We used B&K 4006 through SSL Console preamps on the surrounds. These IRs were used at Todd-AO for 2 years, prior to being sent to Audio Ease for Post production in December 2007 It’s incredibly sad, on many levels, to see Todd-AO close. I’m glad we’ll always have these sonic pictures in Altiverb." -Brad_


So with that in mind, please read how the Fox was recorded:

_Recorded using the Quad Spider consisting of 4 DPA 4006 Omnidirectional microphones and a Genelec 1032 monitor to play back the sweeps._

I mean come on. I am *NOT* saying that the Audioease team has no clue how to record IRs ... nonono, they are excellent  ... I am just saying there could be so much more detail and info in an IR rather than what the Fox IR is now actually ... and I am convinced that all that effort was done when recording the IR for the ToddAO was worth it.

I think I never mentioned that: The Fox IR does sound cool. It is very neutral (adds no boom or sharp frequencies) and is keeping all the samples information but just putting it in a cool room. No doubt about that and with another big reverb it just sounds cool ... but - and I have to use another comparison for that - imagine someone does a picture of a very beautiful church, then you zoom into it and you experience that by seeing all those blurry pixels, the photographer used a 4 megapixel camera instead of 10 or 15 .... I think you get the idea o-[][]-o


----------



## Andreas Moisa (Jun 28, 2008)

Hi Guys,

I also have Altiverb and I never got any great results out of it (Orchestral work). because I think that IR do something to the mix frequency-wise that sounds like a big towel over your music at the end. It's hard to control. I am now using Cubase's Roomworks as an insert in all my orchestral tracks and I am very pleased with the results. You can check out the
tune on our new website www.film-scoring.de (The one that starts immediately). All the reverb comes from Roomworks - even the vsl sounds have only roomworks as an insert in it - just one instance for everything, except vocals)
Since you are so confident with Todd AO, I am going to check this one out, but you already stated that digital verbs on top do the trick. I think that's true - and believe me I got Altiverb and UAD Plate140 (which is my #1 for vocals!) and I was very reluctant to use the "cheap" Reverb from Cubase at first, but for me it got the best results without further hassle and eq-ing etc. 
Just wanted to share my experience here.

Greets,
Andreas


----------



## Dave Connor (Jun 28, 2008)

Todd is (was) an incredibly live room. I worked there with ninety-five pieces and it's a huge, bright, brilliant sound unlike anything you've ever heard. The other rooms in town just don't have that kind of signature. If you listen to Fox recordings of say Alex North's Cleopatra you here a very dry and smaller sound which sounds great in it's own right with far more detail and dynamics. Maybe the IR's are simply capturing the different rooms' properties.


----------



## david robinson (Jun 28, 2008)

hi again, and thanks to rJames and Waywyn for your expert opinions on Altiverb.
appreciate you time in answering.

i've done many recording of ensembles large and small in Sydney over the years, so i know a little about acoustics thru these experiences and my own private research.
even with the best mics and placement of same, i find i do a lot of "trimming" with eq and digital reverbs to get that "big" sound.
the rooms in Sydney are good, but, for modern sounds they only go so far.
i laughed a bit when i saw that audio ease had sampled the Sydney Opera Horse (and i do mean horse!).
i played in there, recorded in there, and been an audience at rehearsals and performances.
anyway, i don't like the acoustics at all. from up the back, the orchestra is very unbalanced with the brass and perc drowning out the strings and woods, in loud passages.
from a player perspective, on stage playing guitar, you hit a chord, your direct sound virtually disappears, covered in a walla of early reflections.
there's an opera hall and music in the building, and both are much better for acoustics.

if the Todd-AO soundstage in the original, then bare in mind that it was designed to complement Mike Todd's wide screen movie format so they made the acoustics larger than life too.
been checking out E Bernstein's scores recently and these seen to be done in a much smaller room, the acoustics sounding almost boxey.

anyway thanks again to everyone.

DR9.


----------



## david robinson (Jun 28, 2008)

hi johnny,
we sure do, and they work cheap!!!
we do have a rather high talent per capita.
love working with real players, but the budgets nowadays lend themselves more to sample libs, etc.
still, it's a "new" art form, and i fully support it's creative potential.
cheers,
DR9.


----------



## caseyjames (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi,

This is my first post on this forum.

I would like to know how many altiverb users are using the mic positions instead of stage positions for the various instrument groups (strings, brass, ww)

How many are simulating depth by changing the distance of the mic from the instrument as opposed to positioning the instruments in relation to a locked off microphone? 

The altiverb literature suggests that the different mic positions are more for tonal variety than for stage positioning, but what do you feel is the greater detriment to a recordings realism: the "stage position" modules' artifacts or the effect of shifting the microphones in relation to the room (in a real recording session it would not be possible to record brass with a mic 18m away and strings with a mic 3m away with out bleed)?

For the folks using stage positions, how many instances of altiverb, setup for just early reflections, are you using and with what mic distance settings (assuming this will be mismatched with the Altiverb sends set up for the tails)?

For what it's worth, I am primarily using synful and wivi.

Casey


----------

