# Sorry to sound cruel and cold but...



## midphase (Jul 23, 2011)

...I have no sympathy for Amy Winehouse.

I'm really tired of people getting all emotionally involved behind spoiled privileged performers who have been given the keys to the kingdom and choose instead to turn themselves into druggies and alcoholics on a self destructive path.

I refuse to martyrize her!

I think there are plenty of more talented performers who get little attention in the press because they behave like normal human beings!

I think it's time that society collectively stops putting some of these out-of-control singers and actors on a pedestal because they're so rebellious and deep. They're not, they are just sad human beings who need help getting over their addiction, and rewarding their self destructive behavior with more press and attention is actually feeding that addiction!


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## choc0thrax (Jul 23, 2011)

Ohhhh, now I get it, she's dead. I was reading this thread and wondering why post about Amy Winehouse since she doesn't seem very relevant these days but then I happened to open AIM and the stupid AOL news garbage page opened and there was the headline. I don't even know why I have AIM.


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## hbuus (Jul 23, 2011)

How can you not have sympathy with her? She's a fellow human being that dies tragically at a very young age.

Henrik


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## rabiang (Jul 23, 2011)

i dont care about sympathy or not. She had a friggin awesome voice and i hope people will remember her for that. 

I think its a big mistake in general to judge art from life or the other way around. They are seperate.


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## David Story (Jul 23, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> I think it's time that society collectively stops putting some of these out-of-control singers and actors on a pedestal because they're so rebellious and deep. They're not, they are just sad human beings who need help getting over their addiction, and rewarding their self destructive behavior with more press and attention is actually feeding that addiction!



This is at the core of our civilization. We build up the talented and reckless, the better to see them fail. Mortal to demigod to mortal.

Makes the shallow feel better about their lot, to see successful people fail. And feeds the need for novelty, the celeb breakdown of the month.

Artists that are in it for the long run, who honor the past and look to the future, don't get much support. Unless they get a patron, like Spielberg-Williams, or John Adams and San Francisco Symphony. Nothing new there...

It's funny that country music fans are among the most loyal in popular music. They embrace the rollercoaster ride of their idol's life.

The alternative is music appreciation in elementary school. Caruso sold millions.


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2011)

hbuus @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> How can you not have sympathy with her? She's a fellow human being that dies tragically at a very young age.
> 
> Henrik



We disagree on the "tragic" part of it. She killed herself.

I tell you who I feel deep sympathy and profound sadness for...those 92 people dead in Norway, now that's tragic!


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 23, 2011)

I have sympathy for her. 

Yes, she wanted to sing. Yes, people bought her records and made her rich. But she couldn't cope with it. Not everybody in life is equipped to deal with the situation they find themselves in, be they rich or poor.

There's no reason to believe that had she not been a singer and had all the money, that she still wouldn't have struggled in life. Some people have that kind of personality. Perhaps they are weak, but is that a reason to mock or dismiss them? I don't think so. At the extreme end of the argument, that she had enough money to buy better quality drugs may even have prolonged her life.

I don't get the argument "Why can't people with fame and money be happy?" Some people just can't be happy, no matter what happens to them. We all have different psyches, different life experiences, different support networks.

I have less sympathy for the people around her who clearly did not do enough to help her.


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2011)

It's not about mocking her (which I am not), but rather about feeling rather indifferent.

In the time that I spent typing this post, another 20 people died of drug and alcohol abuse...why aren't we talking about them?

Amy Winehouse was a person who created a persona in order to reach notoriety, and society like a bunch of chumps rewarded her for her outrageous antics.

Let me pose this question to you -- how many people off the street would know more than the Rehab song by her? Yet how many people would be very aware of her drug and alcohol related antics?

There is this sense that troubled and self destructive artists possess some "special" X-factor that other more well balanced artists don't and I simply don't think that's true at all. Joss Stone hasn't gotten nearly the same amount of press as Winehouse, yet I believe she's a better singer.

Watch Exit Through The Gift Shop to see how easily audiences can be manipulated by hype into thinking they're witnessing genius.


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## Ian Dorsch (Jul 23, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> I tell you who I feel deep sympathy and profound sadness for...those 92 people dead in Norway, now that's tragic!



Amen to that.


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## hbuus (Jul 23, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> In the time that I spent typing this post, another 20 people died of drug and alcohol abuse...why aren't we talking about them?



That's equally tragic. But you seem to say that just because Amy Winehouse was famous, her death is not tragic. She couldn't handle life, just as many other people around the world can't. That makes me sad.

Henrik


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## steb74 (Jul 23, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> In the time that I spent typing this post, another 20 people died of drug and alcohol abuse...why aren't we talking about them?


I don't know, why aren't we? :roll:
You could always start another thread if it's something you do actually feel strongly about.


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## chimuelo (Jul 23, 2011)

It's a tragedy but I witnessed this when I was 16 playing in my first Cool School Jazz group with the Brotha's who were 20-30 years older than me. It's actually more painful for those who loved them as you see their family cry and suffer through their downward spiraling.
I hope others learn from this and her loved ones can rest better, but in all honesty they have probably been hardened more than we know...

R.I.P. Youngblood.


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2011)

hbuus @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> That's equally tragic. But you seem to say that just because Amy Winehouse was famous, her death is not tragic. She couldn't handle life, just as many other people around the world can't. That makes me sad.
> 
> Henrik



No...what I'm saying is that she was famous because she was an out of control addict. Our society is too eager to embrace celebrities who are on a self destructive path as if they are misunderstood geniuses who need the darkness to be able to achieve what they achieve. This creates a self feeding loop generation after generation that I believe needs to be stopped.

I think the worst thing that could happen is for Amy Winehouse to become yet another iconic rock star legend who will in turn get more and more kids to believe that the only way to obtain success is to give in to the excesses...it's the wrong message!


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 23, 2011)

Is being disappointed and annoyed at the way the media and the public lap up tragic celebrities the same thing as having no sympathy for a young (albeit self-destructive) woman's death the same thing though?

The arts have always attracted such self-destructive characters. This is not new, it goes back hundreds of years. There are plenty of classical musicians, writers and painters who followed this path to an early grave. Let's not pretend it was invented by rock'n'roll or Hollywood.

Compassion is not finite.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 23, 2011)

I dunno, Kays. She was a good character singer, if a little hard to look at, and she tried rehab but was an addict. I see no reason to assume that she was self-indulgent and made a decision not to control herself.

Whether she's a martyr - well no. But I think if anything kids would see this as a reason not to engage in destructive behavior...although I don't think it'll have any positive or negative effect, any more than Janis Joplin or Jimmy Hendrix did (as far as behavior).

Regardless, it's sad.

And yes, nowhere near as sad as what happened in Norway. That is just awful. Terrible.


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## David Story (Jul 23, 2011)

TheUnfinished @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> Compassion is not finite.



+1


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2011)

I think you guys are taking me somewhat out of context. I didn't say anything about compassion...it's not like I wished her dead and now I'm doing the happy dance.

I'm just not one of those who feels that this is a great tragedy and an untimely loss. She killed herself and that's that. 

I'm sorry for all the broken hearts of friends and family that she's crapped on...but chances are they knew more than anyone else how this was going to end.

Is it a shame that she won't release any more albums? Maybe...but I'm sure that other supremely talented singers will come along and enrich our lives without being so drunk to get booed off stage.

My main hope (futile...I know), is that we as a society stop paying attention to crazy behavior from our idols as if it's cool and genius...I don't think it is and to some degree I think for many it's a put on that unavoidably takes over their lives, and by the time they realize that their "act" is now reality it's too late.

PS.

You want to know what was a real tragic death in the world of music? Jeff Buckley...that guy didn't deserve to go away so soon.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 23, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> I think you guys are taking me somewhat out of context. I didn't say anything about compassion...it's not like I wished her dead and now I'm doing the happy dance.
> 
> I'm just not one of those who feels that this is a great tragedy and an untimely loss. She killed herself and that's that.
> 
> ...



Musicians at least payed attention to he in spite of the craziness, not because of it. We paid attention because of her talent, which was prodigious.

Anyway, famous or not, talented or not, rich or not, such a young person with so much of her life ahead of her dying like this is tragic.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 23, 2011)

David Story @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> TheUnfinished @ Sat Jul 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Compassion is not finite.
> ...



Well it is finite but it behooves us to stretch it as much as we can find it in ourselves to do.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 23, 2011)

Well.. She had it coming I must say. I don't have sympathy for her either. Harsh, but you have a choice to either start taking drugs and drinking or not and she took it overboard. It's not at all a surprise to me because her body would have been so use to the doses she was taking, that she just kept having more and more, until..... you know what. Crazy that at one of her recent concerts, she couldn't even sing the words!

I don't understand why some musicians do this... really. I can understand partly why some people would do it in every day life, for many reasons, but a rock star with fame and success... hmm.. no.. I can't.


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## midphase (Jul 23, 2011)

Think about it this way Dan -- One day you're a struggling composer trying to make ends meet and get anyone to pay attention to you. Then the next day you turn to alcohol and drugs, you start writing music under the influence and all of a sudden you begin getting more and more attention. The less reliable you are, the more people seek you out. The more you get wasted, the more the phone keeps ringing and now the press is all over you. The more you fall on your face on the sidewalk, the more people sympathize with your struggle and become fans of you. 

Would you quit getting intoxicated?

Yet this is exactly how we (society) treat our stars. The reliable, talented and hard working ones we largely ignore. The crazy partiers we LOVE!

Look at Britney Spears...she got tons of attention when she was wack...now that she's (supposedly) gotten her shit together nobody cares. Same with Lindsay Lohan, even Charlie Sheen...the more crazy, the more press and more attention...the more sane the more we ignore them.

Tomorrow I'm going to the Bowl to see Janelle Monáe. I think she's a fantastic singer who is nowhere as popular as Winehouse because she's not a druggie alcoholic wacko. Same could be said about Jill Scott and a number of other incredibly talented performers who get ignored by the media and audiences because they're...sane!


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## Andrew Aversa (Jul 23, 2011)

Related to the topic, I think the worst people involved here are the ones getting (or selling) the drugs to these celebrities. It's one thing to buy alcohol and drink yourself to death, but these famous folks have to get drugs illegaly from somewhere (or someone), which implies that there are people complicit in their habits and eventual deaths. Disgusting.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 23, 2011)

I agree. Hence why I think that industry is somewhat of a joke IMO. I know alot of talented artists who get ignored by the media, but they are still doing very well. That's what I don't understand. If I was a musician with a huge passion for music (which I am), It wouldn't be for the attention and I'd somehow find away to get noticed other than going down the road Amy, aswell as others have taken. There must be a better way, especially in that industry (if you start going down hill)


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 24, 2011)

zircon_st @ Sun Jul 24 said:


> Related to the topic, I think the worst people involved here are the ones getting (or selling) the drums to these celebrities.



I know its bad form to point out typos on forums, but that one is such a peach. As if drummers don't have a bad enough reputation already...

I can sorta see both sides on this. As is often the case, the reality is somewhat complex. Personally I find little more tragic than a previously normal person with, say, a wife and kids and job have it all go off the rails, wind up homeless and alcoholic then die alone. The media of course completely ignore people like this, and the public have little sympathy too it seems. But we're all fallible, some people reach for the obvious crutches when times are hard and addiction is one of the cruelest things. People who genuinely battle and pull through are true heroes.

I take Kays point though about the way the media glorifies mental illness (which is what this is, ulimately) in celebrities - the homeless and celebs are viewed through different lenses. The treatment of Britney Spears I found incredibly disturbing. Perhaps she never had amazing natural talent, and was very much a media creation... it might be naive on my part but I find myself hoping she can now just life a normal life away from it all. In the case of Winehouse, my natural instinct is to roll my eyes and say "wow, big surprise", but when I think about it in more depth I find both compassion that she was an addict no more or less tragic than any other, and also disgust in how the media (and ultimately the public) revelled in it. OK, there is some discomfort that she played up to the image... you can't get more on the nose than Rehab, and I guess that's why many are unsympathetic now - there's an unspoken implication that she was in some way to be congratulated for going her own way. I re-read those lyrics now and they are moving and sad because they seem at once reasonable (rehab is no easy fix) but also delusional. All this reminds me of Leaving Las Vegas, a film I loathed with a passion.... the concept that loving someone with a serious addiction means accepting that addiction is utterly pathetic. For a film that puts addiction in its right context, you can't beat Requiem For A Dream - for me that film had an amazing affect of so loathing addiction itself that you couldn't simply passively accept it.

Phew, big subjects.

As to Norway, there are no words.


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## George Caplan (Jul 24, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> ...I have no sympathy for Amy Winehouse.
> 
> I'm really tired of people getting all emotionally involved behind spoiled privileged performers who have been given the keys to the kingdom and choose instead to turn themselves into druggies and alcoholics on a self destructive path.
> 
> ...



i have sympathy for anyone whos in mental anguish over whatever it is that ails them. but im old enough to remember when hendrix and other well known contemporary musicians died and they had gotten very little report time of their demise on tv for example. 2 minute report in those days and that was about it.

sandy denny for instance. i dont recall that even being reported at the time and looked for it because i am a big fan.

the trouble is nowadays that kids have very little to hang on to. so they tend to get carried away with what theyre told is really class music, generally by non-musicians, when most of the time its a dogs dinner and all been done before only much better.
anyhow, sorry to their families for the loss.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2xODjbfYw8


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## chimuelo (Jul 24, 2011)

I wouldn't worry about Brittany Spears very much. She is quite in control of herself and actually showed the latest and greatest starlets how to get attention from the ratings driven media so many consider as sacred text.

One example is she shaved her head for stage purposes. Often many Dancers here do this here for scene changes. But Lo and Behold the media twists that into some demented state of mind, while industry experts laughed. 

An example of how stupid media Parrots really are.
Search YouTube for Wolf Blitzer on Jeopardy if you want a laugh. That moron is looked up to as a brilliant elite in many circles, yet he scored the lowest number of points in the shows history, as the most common sense questions were outside of his narrow sphere of " intelligence."

All she did was freak out the media, which by the way in Las Vegas get arrested for stalking. That's why many stars lives here, and recording studios are hidden from public. In LA these parasites feast off of the Laws, and their total lack of enforcement.
And as far drugs are concerned , who knows the truth there. But Ms. Spears is quite brilliant and I wouldn't be surprised if she plans every move in advance these days. She actually learns from her mistakes.


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## AndreP (Jul 24, 2011)

I think that sometimes it has a lot to the with the users enabling environment. A lot of times the 'troubled artist' is around others who are still using drugs/being destructive regularly. I believe it would be pretty hard to quit any kind of drugs use if you have a hard time separating yourself from others who use them and also possible media attention on you for such acts. It is the kind of a mindset of, "If I do this crazy thing the media will still print my name, while if I'm actually trying to clean up, then they'll go on to the next troubled performer". But, I feel that mainly it has to do a lot with environment. Even with a Lindsay Lohan situation. I'm sure she's probably had moments of kicking drug use, but constantly being in an enabling environment, and being rewarded for not following through with commitments, it can be a bit hard to want to quit. 

All that said, it can be sad in that aspect of the person not knowing their own self worth to stop the destructive behavior and for those around them for not really seeing it either through their own self destructive haze.


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## dcoscina (Jul 24, 2011)

midphase @ Sat Jul 23 said:


> hbuus @ Sat Jul 23 said:
> 
> 
> > How can you not have sympathy with her? She's a fellow human being that dies tragically at a very young age.
> ...



I don't think it's fair to compare or judge. Those people who were slaughtered in Norway was surely tragic and upsetting for sure. But as someone who has dealt with chronic depression, it's not for any of us to judge another person's mental state of mind. I have been lucky in my life and had the support of people around me. Some people don't or feel they don't and when you're in that deep dark abyss, the only control you feel you have is to end yourself.

Again, I personally don't think it's right to judge things like this. But, you are free to have your opinions and voice them. If anything, it opens up a dialogue about matters that most people don't want to think about on a daily basis, and for good reason.

p.s. You do realize that the media like to blow these things out of proportion because it sells more magazines, newspapers, gets more viewers etc. The media in my opinion are the true pariahs of society. Evil perhaps.


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## MikeH (Jul 24, 2011)

+1, Mr. Coscina. +1.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 24, 2011)

I only heard recently that Sandy Denny is dead! Fairport Convention were great.



> Harsh, but you have a choice to either start taking drugs and drinking or not and she took it overboard



YOU have a choice, but people who are hopeless addicts don't. Or at least it's not as easy. If it were then lots of people wouldn't be drug addicts.

I'm lucky - I smoked as a teenager and just stopped one day without having any withdrawal symptoms or cravings whatsoever. But that's not because I'm such a great guy or have intense willpower, it's because I don't get addicted. It's the luck of the draw; I've heard that 15% of the public has a propensity to become alcoholic. (I'm treating all addictive tendencies in one breath.)


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## madbulk (Jul 24, 2011)

Yesterday was not a day on which I could muster a lot of sympathy for Amy Winehouse. I was and am mostly in agreement with Kays.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 24, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> I only heard recently that Sandy Denny is dead! Fairport Convention were great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Still. The reason you become addicted is because you made the wrong decision in the first place. It's a choice and that's that. If you don't want to risk becoming addicted to drugs ... just don't do it. Alchohol is a different story I suppose, but everything that comes to drugs, you have a choice. It's idiotic people who choose to take drugs in the first place. Period. It's selfish too, putting pressure on your family and eventually killing your self. Family would be devastated for the rest of their life, where as someone who literally ended their life to escape from reality for 2 seconds with a harmful drug is now dead, laying in peace when they had their whole life ahead of them.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 24, 2011)

> It's a choice and that's that.



Like most of my friends, I made the choice to do LOTS of drugs back in the day. Do I deserve to have my life fall apart so badly that the only way out is to commit suicide?

Put another way, I agree that starting is a choice but I disagree that that's that. Addiction really is a disease.


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## Ed (Jul 24, 2011)

I sort of agree with both sides here, except I dont think a junkie that refuses to get help and basically kills themselves is as tragic as other deaths, such as the Oslo bombing victims for example.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 24, 2011)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> > It's a choice and that's that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. I see what you are saying. No, you don't deserve it, no one deserves it.

Alot of people refuse to get help when they know they have a serious issue. I don't know why she refused it, but who knows really.

It's just, if you have a problem, which I believe she did, some people turn to drugs and eventually suicide. It's just cowarding your way out IMO and also without thinking of others that were close to her. I believe that her family members would be scared for life about this, so in the end, she caused more pain to others than the pain she had her self.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 24, 2011)

Ed - of course it's not as tragic as the Oslo killings, nor the Japanese tsunami, nor the Holocaust, nor the tens of millions of people who Mao killed (Mao was the champion by a huge margin).


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## NYC Composer (Jul 25, 2011)

Why am I made slightly queasy by this thread?

I guess i can understand a general lack of compassion for this specific person, misunderstanding of the disease of addiction, etc etc-but the need to post anything but an R.I.P. about it is a lot of what's wrong with Internet comment boards. I'm dismayed, Kays, that you were so passionate about your lack of empathy for this girl's death that you felt to start a thread about it. Why not remain mute? Is it important for you to establish the relative worth of lives? Did you want to make a general comment about drug addict rock stars? Did you want to judge her as an artist unworthy of being lionized and make sure your opinion was known?

Personally, I think this was a sad girl from the beginning. Her excesses didn't seem to come from a place of looking for 'fun', not to me. They were simply too excessive. I don't know what her childhood was like, but I suspect she was mentally ill.

Dan, are you really young enough not to know any gentle, kind drug addicts who teeter on the brink of death? I've watched plenty crash and burn. No, no one forced the drugs down their throats. They have some measure of responsibility-but many people think they can 'handle' drugs, when they cannot. It's all very well and good to be assigning personal responsibility, but better to take your hat off, give a little respect to the dead and the family of the dead, and think 'there but for the grace go I".


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 25, 2011)

Couldn't agree with you more Larry. 

Addiction, depression and mental illness are dark places. And an addict with fame, money and success is not in a better position than an addict without, probably even the opposite.

When people have a disease of the lung, heart or kidney people are sympathetic and understanding. I do not understand why (and this isn't just about Amy Winehouse or this thread) people have such a negative attitude towards people who have a disease of the brain - the whole "Oh just pull yourself together brigade!" really pisses me off.

People do not commit suicide on a whim or as a statement to piss other people off. They do it because they cannot bare the pain of being alive. Yes, it's absolute agony for those who love them and are left behind, but to brand it as some kind of 'selfish choice' is ridiculous.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 25, 2011)

2 good posts. I'm sorry to add a "however"t... however, I think why some people are ambivalent is that there is sometimes a link made that deaths like these are in some way noble, or the measure of a great and tortured artist and I don't buy that. I'm also incredibly uncomfortable about the fans leaving bottles of vodka at her house etc. I think it's that side of it that some people are reacting against.

That said, I 100% agree that addiction is a tragedy and like the death of any addict is indeed a terribly sad thing, especially for her family and friends.


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## hbuus (Jul 25, 2011)

Dan-Jay @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> Alot of people refuse to get help when they know they have a serious issue. I don't know why she refused it, but who knows really.
> 
> It's just, if you have a problem, which I believe she did, some people turn to drugs and eventually suicide. It's just cowarding your way out IMO and also without thinking of others that were close to her. I believe that her family members would be scared for life about this, so in the end, she caused more pain to others than the pain she had her self.



I'm tempted to say: You really are young, aren't you.
If you're suffering, if you are in a state of extreme mental pain, sometimes you don't think rationally - and then you might take impulsive action to remove your pain once and for all.

Henrik


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2011)

TheUnfinished @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> Couldn't agree with you more Larry.
> 
> Addiction, depression and mental illness are dark places. And an addict with fame, money and success is not in a better position than an addict without, probably even the opposite.
> 
> ...



Well stated.


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## dcoscina (Jul 25, 2011)

hbuus @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> I'm tempted to say: You really are young, aren't you.
> If you're suffering, if you are in a state of extreme mental pain, sometimes you don't think rationally - and then you might take impulsive action to remove your pain once and for all.
> 
> Henrik



Yes, physiologically you are altered. When someone is clinically depressed, you're not thinking in what we normally ascribe as "rational". 

If one does a search on the internet, they will be amazed at how many famous artists (musicians, visual artists, etc) were bi-polar. It's almost as if the mind is wired differently and while it allows great creative feats, the double edged sword is that the person is not what we would call "well adjusted" from a cognitive or even social standpoint.


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## dcoscina (Jul 25, 2011)

I think that the lack of sympathy for any death, no matter the circumstances, is just another sign of how devolved our society is moving towards....sigh.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2011)

dcoscina @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> I think that the lack of sympathy for any death, no matter the circumstances, is just another sign of how devolved our society is moving towards....sigh.



Well, that is over-simplification IMHO. I certainly have no sympathy for Bin Laden for instance. I rejoice in his death.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 25, 2011)

dcoscina @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> I think that the lack of sympathy for any death, no matter the circumstances, is just another sign of how devolved our society is moving towards....sigh.



Hundreds of thousands of people die everyday. I hope you have lots of tissue on you and drink plenty of water, you're going to need a lot of tears. I do agree on the direction our society is moving... apathetic comments towards a person's death who you never met... It's disgusting. When are we going to get back to the enlightened days of slavery and witch burning?


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## dcoscina (Jul 25, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> dcoscina @ Mon Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that the lack of sympathy for any death, no matter the circumstances, is just another sign of how devolved our society is moving towards....sigh.
> ...




Well, that's your POV. Obviously I have a different one.


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## madbulk (Jul 25, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> dcoscina @ Mon Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that the lack of sympathy for any death, no matter the circumstances, is just another sign of how devolved our society is moving towards....sigh.
> ...



An over simplification, imho, also because it's not all or nothing. Sympathy is relative. The degree to which I am sympathetic toward Amy Winehouse is surprisingly little, to me, and therefore discussion fodder. Sorry about violating the "if you can't say something nice," rule. That's probably the way to go admittedly.


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## midphase (Jul 25, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> I'm dismayed, Kays, that you were so passionate about your lack of empathy for this girl's death that you felt to start a thread about it. Why not remain mute? Is it important for you to establish the relative worth of lives?




I think you misunderstood the intent. Mostly it was a plea to not raise her on the type of pedestal that in the past we have raised our idols who have crashed and burned. I think it's time to stop the cycle once and for all, or else it just keeps on feeding on itself and programming more and more into your and influenceable minds that this is what you HAVE to do in order to become immortal.

I think Winehouse had the better part of a decade to get her shit together, I'm sure she went through plenty of interventions, close calls with OD's, she might have even been resuscitated Pulp Fiction-style for all we know. The picture that I get is that each time she preferred to go against the grain and choose not to fight to get better. You all make it sound like this was an isolated incident that went wrong and caught everyone by surprise, as if nobody had a clue how deeply troubled she was. This was not the case here, she had plenty of help, plenty of time, and plenty of money...and yet she opted to turn her back on it and keep going down the path of self destruction.

Am I making assumptions here? Yes, but to the extent that I'm just filling in the blanks from a public picture that's been painted for many years (similar to some extent to the picture that emerges when you've been following the antics of Charlie Sheen and Lindsay Lohan).

Anyway...my bottom line is that maybe by putting some of these artists on pedestals is doing a disservice to ourselves.


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## gsilbers (Jul 25, 2011)

i do agree with kays. 

sounds bad but there sooo much other poeple that die and matter so much more but the media over focuses on her and other stars like her. 

in a way its due to the way media news is controlled and it has evolved so its more of a gossip thing and we all gossip towards a person we "know" , because we are so isolated physically that now this is the way we connect. 

it has its positives and negatives. and one could argue that in a way it creates a more common culture where all experience the same or similar information and create a more cohesive society. 
with positive results as freedom of speech and women rights to give a few examples. 

with that said, i also think we could steer it to make a better society like knowing how and what damages the environment and 3rd world countries and find a way for developed countries help poorer countries w/o the help of governments. 

or that kids in western cultures to find more passion towards math and engineering topics that now asia is so strong at, while western kids look into 
hiphop and other media focus to sell products that do not help society so much as kids knowing math and sciences.


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## JonFairhurst (Jul 25, 2011)

I think the subject line sums it up, _"Sorry to sound cruel and cold but..."_

Recommendation: when given a choice between "cruel and cold" and something else, choose the latter.

Sure, Winehouse was a wreck. Addiction sucks. Addiction has consequences. She wasn't strong enough to overcome it.

I understand not wanting to make her a martyr, but condemnation doesn't help. 

If condemnation solved addiction problems, all of humanity would be clean and sober. There's more than enough condemnation to go around.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 25, 2011)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> I think the subject line sums it up, _"Sorry to sound cruel and cold but..."_
> 
> Recommendation: when given a choice between "cruel and cold" and something else, choose the latter.



Yep. 

"Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind? Does it improve on the silence?"


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## midphase (Jul 25, 2011)

Yes to the third!


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## madbulk (Jul 25, 2011)

midphase @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> Yes to the third!


I'd have gone with the fourth. Now you're really being a little tough.

"And I was being KIND! says Kays."


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## nikolas (Jul 25, 2011)

first of I find it a tiny bit disturbing to see in the same thread multiple referrences to both the 93 (92?) Oslo victims and Amy winehouse! It's NOT the same, although it's also not measurable!

As for winehouse it's tragic, it's sad, it's everything but I don't think she left enough work and opus to be placed in the likes of Hendrix, Cobain, etc (as I see written again and again in various websites). She died young, a tormented soul... RIP (and everyone deserves to RIP IMHO)


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## handz (Jul 25, 2011)

I did not read all the posts but - is it really so big story? I mean - yeah there were some news about her death on first day but what is now the main event is the Norwegian massacre, poor Winehouse choosed a bad date to die and sincerely she was not so "big" to be martyrised (or how it is spelled) like others from club 27, so calm down guys.


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## midphase (Jul 25, 2011)

madbulk @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> midphase @ Mon Jul 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes to the third!
> ...




CRAP...I screwed up...I meant to say Yes to the Fourth....I give up, I can't count!


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 25, 2011)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> I think the subject line sums it up, _"Sorry to sound cruel and cold but..."_
> 
> Recommendation: when given a choice between "cruel and cold" and something else, choose the latter.
> 
> ...



+1. I agree. 

Winehouse destroyed her own life which is beyond argument. Personally I see death in general as a lost opportunity to grow and this proves no more true than her case. She needed help and chose not to get it. I was never really a fan but she had talent. I think it is a shame she died before growing as a human being and becoming a better example to others rather than being the one to show us how not to live.

I'm a stranger in these OT parts and will probably remain one. But to me, using a death to prove a point is more than being cold to be honest. This may have been the case with Breivik of course. But it's odd how it also has become an accepted practice in the case of any death that seems to encourage others to make an example out of a person now unable to respond. Shall we picket her funeral too and harass anyone who loved her in life? Her death does not compare in any way to the tragedy of Oslo but lost opportunities are tragedies nonetheless IMO.


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## midphase (Jul 25, 2011)

Frederick,

Perhaps the title is misleading, and a huge emphasis should fall on the word "sound" because in reality I don't think my observation was either cruel nor cold.

Mostly this was a call to not turn Winehouse into another Hendrix, Cobain or Joplin. As a matter of fact, the entire point that I was trying to make from the beginning is that what happened to Winehouse is most likely the result of us (society) equating drug and alcohol abuse to genius when applied to artists.

I don't understand why everyone keeps focusing on this thread as if it's a celebration of death or inciting people to kill themselves...it's just the opposite.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 25, 2011)

midphase @ Mon Jul 25 said:


> Mostly this was a call to not turn Winehouse into another Hendrix, Cobain or Joplin. As a matter of fact, the entire point that I was trying to make from the beginning is that what happened to Winehouse is most likely the result of us (society) equating drug and alcohol abuse to genius when applied to artists.



Did you feel sympathetic about the death of Hendrix, Cobain, Joplin or Morrison? Was Charlie Parkers's death a tragedy? Coltrane's? Van Gogh's?

I guess my general question is-does it depend on the subjective worth of the art, or is it your general feeling that addicted and/or mentally ill artists are not worthy of sympathy-they should have gotten help?


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## midphase (Jul 25, 2011)

Larry,

The answer is none of the above. 

What I am saying (and which keeps being missed) is that society has made dying of drug or alcohol overdose "cool" by the amount of publicity and idolization. What I see is now an imitative approach by many who are convinced that you're really not truly recognized as a genius unless you're mentally unbalanced and kill yourself one way or another. I'm simply calling bullshit and urge the world to stop putting these people on pedestals....especially when there is so much unrecognized talent who doesn't resort to these types of extreme behavior.

And do I feel sympathetic about the death of Hendrix, Cobain, Joplin, Morrison, Parker, Coltrane, Pastorius, Basquiat, Vicious, Belushi, Bonham, Bruce, Goettel, Hedberg, Hutchence, Jackson, Jones, ODB, Monroe, Phoenix, Presley, and many others (somewhat complete list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dr ... ted_deaths )?

I'm bummed out that their artistic output was cut short...does that qualify?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 25, 2011)

midphase @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> Larry,
> 
> The answer is none of the above.
> 
> ...



Color me confused. if you're saying you _do_ feel sympathetic about those deaths-were not some of those people lionized in their day despite/partially because of the drugs?

What makes this woman different-the worth of her artistic output? Many of the post bop/cool jazz artists I admire had habits. Some fell over the edge...but no doubt, drinking and shooting smack was 'cool' back in the day. I'm missing something here.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 26, 2011)

Gee, what a sad list. 

I'm sorry to come back to this point, but no-one has taken it up really, but I think a fundamental difference of opinion here concerns passivity. There is the Leaving Las Vegas approach - as currently demonstrated by the fans leaving bottles of Vodka outside Winehouse's house - who may or may not think that addiction is tragic, but also think it is to be accepted. These are the passives. Then there is another view that sees addiction as something to be fought, however near-impossibly tough that might be. These are the actives.

My problem is with the passives. There is a thought process - "this person is an addict, it's sad but don't try to change them, it's part of their psyche and who they are (INCLUDING any artistic gift) therefore it is in some way to be revered". I think this line of thinking is dangerous bollocks. You can accept a person while not accepting an addiction as inevitable.

And I can understand the selfish thing, even though of course this isn't simple either. But if someone is addicted, a motivation (the biggest one) should be to come clean for the people around them that they destroy. To NOT do this is ultimately a selfish act, however much I might sympathise with how hard it is.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 26, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> Gee, what a sad list.
> 
> I'm sorry to come back to this point, but no-one has taken it up really, but I think a fundamental difference of opinion here concerns passivity. There is the Leaving Las Vegas approach - as currently demonstrated by the fans leaving bottles of Vodka outside Winehouse's house - who may or may not think that addiction is tragic, but also think it is to be accepted. These are the passives. Then there is another view that sees addiction as something to be fought, however near-impossibly tough that might be. These are the actives.
> 
> ...



She was in rehab a number of times, Guy. It didn't take.People don't die at 27 to maintain an image. They die at 27 because they can't control their demons.


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## midphase (Jul 26, 2011)

sympathy |ˈsimpəθē|
noun ( pl. -thies)
1 feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune : they had great sympathy for the flood victims.
• ( one's sympathies) formal expression of such feelings; condolences : all Tony's friends joined in sending their sympathies to his widow Jean.
2 understanding between people; common feeling : the special sympathy between the two boys was obvious to all.
• ( sympathies) support in the form of shared feelings or opinions : his sympathies lay with his constituents.
• agreement with or approval of an opinion or aim; a favorable attitude : I have some sympathy for this view.
• ( in sympathy) relating harmoniously to something else; in keeping : repairs had to be in sympathy with the original structure.
• the state or fact of responding in a way similar or corresponding to an action elsewhere : the magnetic field oscillates in sympathy.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 26, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> She was in rehab a number of times, Guy. It didn't take.People don't die at 27 to maintain an image. They die at 27 because they can't control their demons.



I'm not sure that either I agree, or that you're quite getting what I'm saying. Leaving Las Vegas best explains it. There's an awful scene in it when it's the Nic Cage character's birthday (he is alcoholic, and has gone to Vegas to drink himself to death). He and the Elisabeth Shue's character fall in love. And for his birthday, she gives him a hip flask.

That's what I'm talking about. It's an acceptance of an inevitable outcome, and I detest that, its the antithesis of love as I understand it. It's a dreadful confusion of accepting a person for who they are, and accepting a potentially fatal disease that they have from which you can be cured. Love should be the motivation for treatment (I know this must make me look very idealistic, but hey).

Look again at the lyrics to Rehab. Her point seems to be that it would be fake to go, to pretend to the world that she's getting better. Instead, she'll find her own way. This is a delusional false choice, in my view. I don't know how many places she went to, I don't know how long she stayed, I don't know how hard she tried. But I know I don't buy the attitude in her lyric. Maybe I'm misunderstanding it or her, but if she thought it was "fake" to be seen to try rehab, I think she's totally missed the point - who cares what other people think one way or the other. It sounds like an easy out someone gives themselves when something is hard, I'm sorry to say. If one technique or place doesn't work, try another. Does a person want to get well or not? In her case, ultimately I see "not", and that's what killed her.

That doesn't mean I have no sympathy - it's tragic. I get that it's ridiculously hard, and I get that good people will fail.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 26, 2011)

midphase @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> sympathy |ˈsimpəθē|
> noun ( pl. -thies)
> 1 feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune : they had great sympathy for the flood victims.
> • ( one's sympathies) formal expression of such feelings; condolences : all Tony's friends joined in sending their sympathies to his widow Jean.
> ...



Thanks for the list: " ...I have no sympathy for Amy Winehouse. "

which meaning did you want to apply to your statement?


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## NYC Composer (Jul 26, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Jul 26 said:
> 
> 
> > She was in rehab a number of times, Guy. It didn't take.People don't die at 27 to maintain an image. They die at 27 because they can't control their demons.
> ...




You say 'not wanting to get well' as if addiction is completely volitional. The initial use of drugs is volitional -addiction is not entirely so, or at least that's not the nature of addiction as I've seen it.

Your last statement really embodies my entire original point-why post a lack of sympathy? For anyone, other than perhaps a mass murderer or serial killer? She was just a pop star, and it's unfortunate she died so young, regardless of the circumstances. 

To tell the truth, I am almost completely unaffected by the death of people I don't know. Like Kays, sometimes I'm sad that their creative output is over, but it's not like a friend died. Still, the idea of posting a lack of sympathy for the death of a young singer strikes me as unseemly and unnecessary regardless of the reason, which in this case seems to have been to make a societal point.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 26, 2011)

Well actually I think the wider discussion - both here and in the world at large - is no bad thing at all. Addiction isn't really the sort of subject that gets thoughtful analysis very often, and if it leads to that and ultimately a greater understanding of how serious it is and what can be done, then all to the good.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 26, 2011)

It's interesting to note that her music video Rehab now has more hits post death than she was able to accumulate in all the years prior. Shows what she was famous for and it wasn't the music.


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 26, 2011)

choc0thrax @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> It's interesting to note that her music video Rehab now has more hits post death than she was able to accumulate in all the years prior. Shows what she was famous for and it wasn't the music.


That happens with everyone who dies. 

I'd say the several Grammys she won are slightly more indicative of the regard her singing was held in, rather than YouTube hits.


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## dcoscina (Jul 26, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> [
> 
> 
> Still, the idea of posting a lack of sympathy for the death of a young singer strikes me as unseemly and unnecessary regardless of the reason, which in this case seems to have been to make a societal point.



+1. Although it did serve to open up an interesting topic for discussion. Mental illness and addiction are the result of altered brain states. My father is a neuroscientist and he's mentioned that there's a lot of physiological alterations in the biochemical balance in the brain when a person has certain types of mental afflictions. To assume someone can just cheer themselves up when they are in this state is not only naive, it's plain misinformed.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 26, 2011)

[quote="dcoscina @ Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:07 am"

Although it did serve to open up an interesting topic for discussion.[/quote]

Really? I did not find anything in this thread informative. Some people are more compassionate and less judgmental than others is all that was demonstrated and I think we all already knew that.


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## TheUnfinished (Jul 26, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> Really? I did not find anything in this thread informative.


Perhaps that's because you were already informed, Jay?


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## madbulk (Jul 26, 2011)

I have very little sympathy for the people on that list with whom I'm the most familiar. A little. But not a lot. It's measured. I'm still pretty angry at most of them. I think that for me is the issue. Hard to be angry and sympathetic at the same time. 

I am definitely not as informed as Cosina's Dad could make me. But neither am I generally inclined to be insensitive nor cold. I'm currently fostering baby kittens for cryin out loud. (Choco-ism, I'm thinking.)

Btw, nyccomposer you keep plugging in "mental illness," which leaves no room for arguement. If I were accepting of this entirely, I'd have nothing but sympathy. Again, misinformed, uninformed, little doubt. Accepting of it, knowing that? No. Not at present.


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## dcoscina (Jul 26, 2011)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> [quote="dcoscina @ Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:07 am"
> 
> Although it did serve to open up an interesting topic for discussion.



Really? I did not find anything in this thread informative. Some people are more compassionate and less judgmental than others is all that was demonstrated and I think we all already knew that.[/quote]

I think there was an attempt at some dialogue. It didn't get too nasty by and large.

madbulk, everyone has a right to how they feel. I didn't know Winehouse, nor did I know the father of a student of my wife who promptly hung himself in his family's garage but I feel bad for people who are in such a dark abyss that their only solution is to end themselves. Although I do know there still is a distinction between drug overdose and something like hanging one's self. The former might be ascribed as excess and accidental. There's nothing accidental about hanging yourself.

Of course this is all subjective based on our own experiences in life. Some people haven't been through clinical or chronic depression so perhaps they just cannot fathom what it's like. I don't blame them. They just don't know. It's not a slight against them, just is what it is....

Anyhow, on a sidenote, the more I read about the tragedy in Olso, the more I wonder where we're heading as a society.. Are we in fact better off than say 50 years ago? 100 years ago? I know, it's a big OT but when you see someone so embittered that he slaughters all those people, well, sigh, I just don't know what to make of it.


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 26, 2011)

dcoscina @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> Anyhow, on a sidenote, the more I read about the tragedy in Olso, the more I wonder where we're heading as a society.. Are we in fact better off than say 50 years ago? 100 years ago? I know, it's a big OT but when you see someone so embittered that he slaughters all those people, well, sigh, I just don't know what to make of it.



It IS OT, but I'd be very surprised if that man doesn't turn out to be a lone psychopath (clinical definition, not colloquialism). The intelligence, rationality, very lengthy premeditation, delusions of grandeur, absence of empathy and calmness after the event are a giveaway in this case. I don't think its indicative of any trend in society - psychopaths have always been the most destructive people throughout history and sadly they will always be with us to make this world a much worse place.


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## dedersen (Jul 26, 2011)

The trouble with mankind is that we've made it possible for one psychopath to create so much destruction.


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## midphase (Jul 26, 2011)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> Thanks for the list: " ...I have no sympathy for Amy Winehouse. "
> 
> which meaning did you want to apply to your statement?



I feel no pity or sorrow for anyone throwing their life away like that.


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## midphase (Jul 26, 2011)

dcoscina @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> Anyhow, on a sidenote, the more I read about the tragedy in Olso, the more I wonder where we're heading as a society.. Are we in fact better off than say 50 years ago? 100 years ago? I know, it's a big OT but when you see someone so embittered that he slaughters all those people, well, sigh, I just don't know what to make of it.




Really?

Something like extermination of Jews ring a bell? Or the thousands who were killed by Stalin, or racial hangings in Mississippi, or Armenian genocide?

I'd say as a society we've made huge steps forward in the past 100 years...hell, 50 years ago this guy might have killed all these people and nobody would have even known what happened.

Don't confuse fast traveling information and news as an increase in overall world madness. It can appear that way but I think we're much better off than we were a century ago (unlike what those Tea wackos would like everyone to think).


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## dcoscina (Jul 26, 2011)

This is why I don't read or watch the news. They have a penchant for sensationalism.


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## choc0thrax (Jul 26, 2011)

midphase @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> dcoscina @ Tue Jul 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyhow, on a sidenote, the more I read about the tragedy in Olso, the more I wonder where we're heading as a society.. Are we in fact better off than say 50 years ago? 100 years ago? I know, it's a big OT but when you see someone so embittered that he slaughters all those people, well, sigh, I just don't know what to make of it.
> ...



I already tried to tell him this. 60 something years ago we had a little conflict which could have potentially resulted in Amy Winehouse never existing in the first place.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 27, 2011)

Cambodia. North Vietnam. Rwanda. Congo. Sri Lanka. Burma. Sudan.Bosnia. Kurdish Iraq.
(to name a few)

I agree that the scale is smaller-hell, Hitler was a piker compared to Mao, Stalin, Lenin- and I'm sad to say this, but I don't believe human nature has changed that much. I fear the fires are smaller because we are in a pause phase.

The guy in Norway seems to have been one of those crazed and pathological ideologues who pop up once in a while, sort of along the lines of Tim McVeigh or Loughner. I empathize with the people of Oslo whose sense of normality has been forever altered.

After my close encounter with 9/11, I often found myself thinking about the people of Beirut and what they went through. Most of the Western world really isn't ready for a sustained campaign of terrorism (not that anyone really is).


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## NYC Composer (Jul 27, 2011)

midphase @ Tue Jul 26 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Jul 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the list: " ...I have no sympathy for Amy Winehouse. "
> ...



...and you're certainly welcome to your opinion, I was really just trying to clarify..
I am curioous though-have you not known any addicts, or any who didn't make it?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 27, 2011)

In fact, you know that there must be some addicts right here, in our forum. They're normal people, trying to fight a very tough battle. Hey Kays, have you got any addiction you can't lick? Maybe you really like chips, cigarettes or software you don't really need? Just be happy your addiction(s) are not deadly.


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## Andrew Christie (Jul 27, 2011)

midphase @ Sun Jul 24 said:


> There is this sense that troubled and self destructive artists possess some "special" X-factor that other more well balanced artists don't and I simply don't think that's true at all.



Yeh I know! One of my pet hates. I tried the tortured and angst-ridden artist thing when I was in high school. Didn't work for me lol.


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