# Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted? [now restored]



## Guy Rowland (Apr 22, 2013)

This.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 22, 2013)

Just for the record, the library is available here - http://sites.fastspring.com/indienoizes ... /mgdubstep . Money raised is for ACMF, who are "a not-for-profit organisation that provides music instruments and programs for disadvantaged and Indigenous children and youth in schools, remote communities and juvenile justice centres".

I made some free K5 patches with Mick's bessing, available here - https://www.box.com/s/jjlidmv30atiiilntik5

(just to clarify, my patches need the full library to work.)


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## Blakus (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm curious too!


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## Windle (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

I suspect the fact that a charitable project was competing with other developers in the Commercial section was the reason.

Developers pay to use that section (Commercial means it is quite clear where the intention is) and there is another Dubstep library which has just been released which I'm sure has suffered as a result.

I happily bought the Dubstep project from Mick Gordon (thank you, by-the-way, Guy, for the Kontakt patch!) as I was keen to support his charity but also we need developers to make a living if we want to maintain this stream of ever-improving products.

I wonder whether there needs to be a separate section on the Forum for Free/Charitable projects that doesn't get tangled up in the Commercial section?

W.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 22, 2013)

I'd have thought that, at the very least, given the charity status would have meant it get moved to the Sample Talk forum if that were the case. As I understand it, you can have one non-ad supported post in Commercial Announcements per 90 days anyway.

Any unexplained deletion for such a worthwhile project makes VI-C look like... yeah I'm gonna say it... Soundsonline. Or.... yeah I'm gonna say that too... Northern Sounds. Mick Gordon has said he hasn't been told anything, btw.


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## Walid F. (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



Windle @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> I wonder whether there needs to be a separate section on the Forum for Free/Charitable projects that doesn't get tangled up in the Commercial section?
> 
> W.



that should've been arranged instead of the deletion of the thread, no? It's for charitable reasons, why the hell do you _delete_ it?


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## musicformedia (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

I have to say this is pretty shameful.

If it was a "pay what you want" library and no proceeds going to charity, would it still be allowed in the commercial section? 

It shouldn't matter where the income from the library is going and it shouldn't matter that you can possibly get it for free either - there are plenty of freebies in the commercial announcements forum and plenty of them compete with other libraries.


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## reid (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

More to the point, is the deletion due to VI Control mods feeling the thread was in an inappropriate section, or because a certain developer got his knickers in a twist because he has a dubstep library on release this week too? If it's the latter scenario, I think that's shameful - both that the mods could cave into any kind of pressure over a charity fundraiser, and that a certain developer could think he was justified in making a complaint to the mods. Over a charity fundraiser. You know - for charity..... :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## bdr (Apr 22, 2013)

Hey Guy..thanks for the Kontakt instruments, and for making them freely available. Very generous.


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## ThomasL (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

Stinks...


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## windshore (Apr 22, 2013)

Hey guys, 

Relax. The thread wasn't deleted. It's been moved. Apparently there is some legal issue that needs to be sorted out.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 22, 2013)

Boy, some people are sure quick to blast moderators and VIC - lightning speed, in fact! I wish that there was a bit more trust and patience, given our mostly stellar history, but I guess that's a lot to ask.


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## windshore (Apr 22, 2013)

It's more important to perpetuate conspiracy theories than actually waiting around for facts. It's a whole trend in society, but certainly alive and well here.


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## ThomasL (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

I might have been a bit hasty. I seem to forget that all you mods-people sleep on the wrong side of the day…

Sorry, should have know better.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 22, 2013)

windshore @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Relax. The thread wasn't deleted. It's been moved.



Great! Moved to where though... KVR?  

That's the thing - to the layman it doesn't 'arf look a lot LIKE it's gone. The thing is that it isn't here any more, hence the "confusion". Mick wasn't told why either (I believe there's been some contact now, which is good). If it comes back - terrific. But I'd have thought at least sending an email to the OP when moving-that-looks-a-lot-more-like-deleting is a good idea. Especially when it's raising money for charity, and was a very active thread with a lot of enthusiastic participation.


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## Daniel James (Apr 22, 2013)

For the sake of the respect I have for the mods here I hope this whole thing has nothing to do with a certain other dubstep library release right now.

I guess we shall all see eventually if this was a conspiracy or not. Lets just hope our trust in the mods here isn't misplaced.

-DJ


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## Amusics (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

Can we find out who the legal action was from? Since there are other developers who have something to gain by this going away, it'd be pretty sad to see such a terrible manipulation and abuse of the forum.

I joined this forum to learn and be more informed about everything in the sample world, not to have certain developers favored over others. IF this is the case, it's even more shameful that we are pulling the thread for a developer.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 22, 2013)

Shame! Favouritism! Bring out the pitchforks! Northern Sounds! East West! CyberbullyingspywareMonsantokickbacks!

That felt so gooooood!


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## Daniel James (Apr 22, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> Shame! Favouritism! Bring out the pitchforks! Northern Sounds! East West! CyberbullyingspywareMonsantokickbacks!
> 
> That felt so gooooood!



lol nice mature response from the mods.

If, once this is all laid bare, it turns out that there has been mod favoritism of one developer over a cause aimed at helping under privileged kids...you gotta admit, that's leaning in the direction of shameful. 

Like I say I hope thats not the case. I like this place, and so far have had no reason to lose respect for the way its moderated.

-DJ


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 22, 2013)

Daniel James @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Apr 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Shame! Favouritism! Bring out the pitchforks! Northern Sounds! East West! CyberbullyingspywareMonsantokickbacks!
> ...



+1. The mod replies are very silly. Why not at least answer how "moving" a thread equates with it not being here any more?

The good news - despite this nonsense, I hear Mick's library is doing brilliantly and has already raised an amazing sum... I leave that news to Mick though!


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

Hey Guys, I am trying to find out what is going on, I am confused also, lets relax until the perceived facts get uncovered here.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks Craig, much appreciated.


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## Daniel James (Apr 22, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> Thanks Craig, much appreciated.



+1 Thanks Craig for the sensible, mature response 

-DJ


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## musicformedia (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

So, any update?


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## germancomponist (Apr 22, 2013)

I am also interested to know.... .


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

Guys, we may or may not have to wait a while. Frederick has some info but is on an international trip with limited access to the internet...so that's all i can say at this time as it is all I know.


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## germancomponist (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

I'm sure the fact that there was a mistake...., and that we all can very quickly read this thread again.


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## Daniel James (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



germancomponist @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> I'm sure the fact that there was a mistake...., and that we all can very quickly read this thread again.



Its just very suspicious timing. I have no doubt we will see it again. But you have got to admit, there are certain members of the forum that will benefit greatly from this library being stuck in limbo for a while....might I add, at the cost of potential sale money going to charity. 

Speaking of that. If it IS infact an intellectual property legal issue brought up by a developer, shouldn't BOTH libraries be moved to the investigation section? Not doing so sets a dangerous precedent for future release....for example whats stopping one developer saying that a competing library, that comes out around the same time, is infringing their legal rights and should be investigated..forcing it to be removed from site for a few days, while theirs remains and gets the added promotion of being the only product visible. 

(-I seriously want an answer to this from a developer standpoint.)

It's horrible to think that all a developer has to do is raise a legal complaint against something and a promotional post will be taken down BEFORE any investigation takes place, leaving the person with the complaint reaping the benefit of zero competition while the otheris stuck in limbo.

-DJ


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 22, 2013)

Edit: never mind if anyone saw what I posted. I was talking about a different thread. Sorry.


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## Ishido (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



Daniel James @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> If it IS infact an intellectual property legal issue brought up by a developer, shouldn't BOTH libraries be moved to the investigation section? Not doing so sets a dangerous precedent for future release....for example whats stopping one developer saying that a competing library, that comes out around the same time, is infringing their legal rights and should be investigated..forcing it to be removed from site for a few days, while theirs remains and gets the added promotion of being the only product visible.



+1


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



Daniel James @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> germancomponist @ Mon Apr 22 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure the fact that there was a mistake...., and that we all can very quickly read this thread again.
> ...



I agree and hope that is not the case.


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## germancomponist (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



Craig Sharmat @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> I agree and hope that is not the case.



+1


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## madbulk (Apr 22, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> Boy, some people are sure quick to blast moderators and VIC - lightning speed, in fact! I wish that there was a bit more trust and patience, given our mostly stellar history, but I guess that's a lot to ask.



This is true.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 22, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



Daniel James @ Mon Apr 22 said:


> . . . for example what's stopping one developer saying that a competing library, that comes out around the same time, is infringing their legal rights and should be investigated..forcing it to be removed from site for a few days, while theirs remains and gets the added promotion of being the only product visible.


In that example, Developer 2 could sue Developer 1 for making false claims. Damages would be whatever Developer 2 believes (optimistically, of course) that his lost sales would be. That would just be the beginning of damages Developer 2 could sue for. He could also claim this release was what would put his company into the big time, and that opportunity is now lost, so he'd need to be compensated for that. And slander, of course.

I have no idea what's really going on, mind you, but a developer would have to be really, really stupid to make a false claim like that. (Seriously, I don't even know who Developer 1 is in this case. You mean to tell me there are Dub Step announcements on VI Control??? :mrgreen: )

With that said, I do like your idea of moving both threads instead of just the one. But again, I have absolutely no idea what's going on here.

Also FWIW, ad prices on VI Control are so low (heck, even lil' ole me can afford a banner ad) that I don't think developers who advertise have any special influence. Certainly not enough to kill a thread that's otherwise doing nothing wrong.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

Thanks for the post, Mike. Good to hear all round really. It's the suspicion of undue commercial influence - especially to apparently squash a charity project - that is most troubling here, hence raising the spectre of Northern Sounds. Commercial interest was the cancer that killed that place. I like to think that those of us who are making a noise about this absolutely have VI-C's health and future at heart, it seems right to question when something like this happens - thankfully it IS unusual, and its testimony to how valued VI-C is that people will make a noise about it. AFAIK, Mick's is the only thread that has been removed, so we're still in an awkward place.

Hopefully it won't be too long before whatever this is will be resolved. I know us punters have very little clue as to what really goes on behind the scenes here, and what problems you all have to deal with from, shall we say, awkward customers.


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## madbulk (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

The question was raised. It remains raised. If an answer isn't forthcoming, bump it back up and keep it alive. But while waiting, try to skip the innuendo.


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## germancomponist (Apr 23, 2013)

Strange..... .


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## Mike Greene (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



Guy Rowland @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> Thanks for the post, Mike. Good to hear all round really. It's the suspicion of undue commercial influence - especially to apparently squash a charity project - that is most troubling here, hence raising the spectre of Northern Sounds. Commercial interest was the cancer that killed that place. I like to think that those of us who are making a noise about this absolutely have VI-C's health and future at heart, it seems right to question when something like this happens - thankfully it IS unusual, and its testimony to how valued VI-C is that people will make a noise about it. AFAIK, Mick's is the only thread that has been removed, so we're still in an awkward place.
> 
> Hopefully it won't be too long before whatever this is will be resolved. I know us punters have very little clue as to what really goes on behind the scenes here, and what problems you all have to deal with from, shall we say, awkward customers.


Rest assured that the mods have the same interest as everyone else does about keeping this place honest. That's not to say we don't make mistakes, because we most certainly do, but I can assure you there's no behind the scenes plot. As you probably know, the moderators aren't paid. We're here entirely because we have the same wish that you do that VI Control remains the open and honest forum that it is.

Whatever happened with Mick's thread, I have zero doubt that it was done with the best intentions. Again, I don't know the particulars, and again, moderators are far from perfect. But whether I would personally agree with the decision or not, I'm sure the intentions were completely honest.

As far as resolving this soon, bear in mind that Frederick is out of the country and away from internet access. Given that this is his first vacation in years and in light of his wife's fairly recent passing, I'm personally not inclined to put in a panic call to him and I imagine other mods feel the same. So please be patient.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

Mick Gordon could also give us a heads up ?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

Thanks Mike for a great post.

All I can comfortably say is that there is no funny business, and that we all have to be a bit more patient. Unlike what some people may think, this is not a precedent, but rather a very unique situation.


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## madbulk (Apr 23, 2013)

More than good enough for me.


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## Daniel James (Apr 23, 2013)

Congrats to the MOD team for getting the thread re-uploaded. 

Now that its back there is clearly no legal issue. So as a developer here could you please inform us what happened?

-DJ


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

The thread is restored for now.

After much discussion with mods it was decided this is not a VI issue.


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## Daniel James (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



Craig Sharmat @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> The thread is restored for now.
> 
> After much discussion with mods it was decided this is not a VI issue.



Could you shed a light on what it was all about? Were any of the suspicions close to home? Should other devs be worried about similar things happening.

-DJ


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## germancomponist (Apr 23, 2013)

But what was the reason, Craig?


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## MickGordon (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

Hey Guys!

Thanks for all your concerns and support! You all rock!

I have no idea what to update, I know as much as you guys. It started with this message from Fred:


> Subject: Potential conflict with a developer
> Hi Mick, I am out of the country right now and there is a potential conflict and legal problem brewing with this. I've moved the thread pending an investigation into the claims. Just a heads up temporarily for now until I find out more.


And the thread disappeared. Then, I got a message from Craig who asked if I knew what was going on, and I said I've got no idea. Now the thread is back up. 

I don't know what was going on. I've been in the dark the whole time. I was reading through these messages to try and find out myself!!

Regardless, thanks for restoring the thread VI! I appreciate the support. If there's something I've done wrong please let me know and I'll be sure to rectify things.


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## germancomponist (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*



MickGordon @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> Subject: Potential conflict with a developer..... .



This makes me really speechless now!


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

The thread was pulled because of a conflict. VI really does not have much info and put it back after some discussion. The only ones who have the real info are the two developers and they are not sharing and that is their right and business.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Why has Mick Gordon's charity dubstep thread been deleted?*

This really gets more bizarre, Mick Gordon knows nothing about this, (see post a few up) so there are 2 separate devs in dispute about this. We will never know the reason but something is not adding up. Appreciate that the mods and the VI forum are doing the right thing and distancing themselves from a 3rd party issue.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 23, 2013)

Glad it's back, in the absence of anything definitive, it looks like it's up to folks to draw their own conclusions based on what we know. Glad we and the mods agree on its restoration


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## windshore (Apr 23, 2013)

Sometimes, you must accept that you can't know everything. Not because of some malicious plot, but because of needing to make inquires and weigh the available information. Better to move forward!


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## Daniel James (Apr 23, 2013)

windshore @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> Sometimes, you must accept that you can't know everything. Not because of some malicious plot, but because of needing to make inquires and weigh the available information. Better to move forward!



It would be nice to know where developers stand on this though. Because from what we saw, the post was removed before any sort of investigation began which COULD have been a shifty business move. In future will issues like this be investigated BEFORE posts disappear?

Also I think its worth noting that some of the mods were quite dismissive of our genuine concerns when we made them, saying we were not having faith in them and were quick to attack you guys....yet now we find out that it WAS another developer who took issue with the product and had it removed, we were exactly right with our concerns! I also like to believe that the fact it was brought up so publicly helped in the swift return of the post. 

Sure I fully accept we will never know the details, but I think the fact that the post was removed because a developer took issue with it and it was immediately removed is something that should looked into to make sure similar situations dont occur in the future. For example, we may not ever find out which developer took issue with a charity dubstep library being released but you have to take note of the fact that one company would have certainly benefited from there being zero public competition for their a Dubstep library on its launch day. 

I know the MODS are not at fault here, you can only do what you can do, but the fact that Mick himself was never informed what was going on, and still now has no idea where the legal threats were coming from stinks to high heaven.

-DJ


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## woodsdenis (Apr 23, 2013)

> The only ones who have the real info are the two developers and they are not sharing and that is their right and business





> Sure I fully accept we will never know the details, but I think the fact that the post was removed because a developer took issue with it and it was immediately removed is something that should looked into to make sure similar situations dont occur in the future. For example, we may not ever find *out which developer* took issue with a charity dubstep library being released but you have to take note of the fact that one company would have certainly benefited from there being zero public competition for their a Dubstep library on its launch day.



The thing is if Mick Gordon was in the dark, Craig said there were TWO developers in this apart from Mick.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 23, 2013)

Mick is one of the two developers.


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## Daniel James (Apr 23, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> Mick is one of the two developers.



Mick stated above that he clearly doesn't know the real info....

Which would suggest the other developer took the legal matter up with vi-control and had the post taken down without consulting the other party in advance. Thats the worrying part.

-DJ


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 23, 2013)

Maybe the two parties have partied together, but would rather not share the pictures with All Friends?


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## Daniel James (Apr 23, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> Maybe the two parties have partied together, but would rather not share the pictures with All Friends?



Ned I know you like to jump in with the lighthearted tone but in all seriousness... Now we know the facts are:

That a developer challenged VIC with legal action over another libraries post, 

which VIC then removed without getting the other side of the story first, 

POTENTIALLY carving out a day or two of clear advertising space for the first developer,

offering no reason to the community or the developer being affected,

then the post returning and VIC saying we should forget it happened *"Sometimes, you must accept that you can't know everything"* or that an investigation was made but only AFTER one post was removed, again potentially giving the other developer clear advertising space *" but because of needing to make inquires and weigh the available information"*


As a developer and on behalf of the other developers here who may like to have conversations and perhaps pay for advertising. Whats to stop this happening in the future, particularly to make it fair to all parties involved. This example itself showed that there wasnt a case to be answered, otherwise the post wouldn't have returned. How can we know it wasn't a strategic business move on the other developers part. Without clarification on the terms of advertising this looks like a precedent thats shows: If you want to move a post out of the way for a few days, threaten legal action, it will be removed with zero action taken against you post with zero repercussions.

I really do hope this will get a mature and genuine response and answer from you as it affects members of the forum who can potentially be paying customers.

-DJ


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 23, 2013)

Daniel James @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the two parties have partied together, but would rather not share the pictures with All Friends?
> ...



first we don't respond well to developers throwing their weight around and that goes for you too. That is the reason for this forum, its a members first place. One person pulled the thread to examine the facts. Once we determined we didn't have enough info and it probably wasn't our business anyway we returned the thread. We still don't know the relationship of the 2 parties concerned and its not our business.


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## Daniel James (Apr 23, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> Daniel James @ Tue Apr 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 23 said:
> ...



Hey Craig cheers for the level headed response. I am sincere when I say I am 100% not trying to throw weight around. I am simply requesting clarification on the terms of advertising with regards to issues such as the one on display here. With the scenario mentioned above. For people who are, and in the future, intend to financially get involved with the site through advertising.

-DJ

note: I do love Vi Control and respect the mods here, just making inquiries from a business perspective (as this site does accept paying customers) as it's directly related to the topic at hand here. Apologies if its coming across as aggression or something, It's just my question has been missed a couple of times without an answer and I would genuinely like the official word


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 23, 2013)

we do the best with the info we are given (or not given sometimes). It is not perfect but there are a number of mods and the process can take time. Remember we are all working composers and sometimes the forum has to take a back seat. We don't get paid and even if we did it would never be equal to composing money (thankfully).


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## Daniel James (Apr 23, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Tue Apr 23 said:


> we do the best with the info we are given (or not given sometimes). It is not perfect but there are a number of mods and the process can take time. Remember we are all working composers and sometimes the forum has to take a back seat. We don't get paid and even if we did it would never be equal to composing money (thankfully).



haha I don't know, a paying forum job might rival some of the shitty fees I have taken since getting my own house  I do appreciate what you guys are doing, I really do. It's just I am myself and know of a few developers who will soon be looking to advertise on this site and it would be great to know that this couldnt happen again in the same way. I have heard of certain companies deploying shady/bully/intimidation tactics before and just wanted to check this _particuallar_ scenario wouldn't occur again in the same way (which without the full facts _looks_ like a business strategy, which worked.)

-DJ


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 23, 2013)

Every situation is different. This one was certainly out of the norm.


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## windshore (Apr 23, 2013)

Guys, Lighten up!

This thread was moved for what? - maybe 48 hours?

Would you rather be part of a forum that doesn't monitor or check for potential misconduct? 

Let's move on.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 23, 2013)

The fact that the thread was moved, protests were raised and the thread was restored says volumes about the moderation of this forum, which continually tries to err on the side of light-handed behavior and fairness. Agreed that the whole thing was a little weird, but my take-kudos to the mods.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 24, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> The fact that the thread was moved, protests were raised and the thread was restored says volumes about the moderation of this forum, which continually tries to err on the side of light-handed behavior and fairness. Agreed that the whole thing was a little weird, but my take-kudos to the mods.



Agreed, very much appreciative that they acted on this.

Definitely take DJ's points too. From a developer standpoint, it's pretty alarming that another developer can apparently privately make an accusation with legal threats and take you down, even with no evidence to back it up. It's even more alarming when you consider that the project taken down was entirely to raise money for charity. But it's good to know that at least when they do it is temporary, and well done for all the good unpaid folks at VI-C for not bowing to this.

So I guess I take something else away from this little episode. This developer has a name and a company, that cannot be named here - it is public record they have a dubstep library though. To pick a letter at random, I'll call the developer Mr T. Based on everything we've been publicly told, my suspicion - which may or may not be factually correct - is that Mr T has picked on a charity to raise money for kids and tried to suppress it to further their own commercial gain. I know I'm not alone in this suspicion. If this B-movie plot is not the case - and I sincerely hope it isn't - Mr T is most welcome to publicly set the record straight to stop us drawing false conclusions. In the absence of any further information, while I can't speak for anyone else, that affects my purchasing decisions.

To conclude more positively, again I hear that Mick's library goes from strength to strength, as it deserves. It's a great cause and it sounds totally authentic for the style.


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## Resoded (Apr 24, 2013)

A pretty bad move from the developers trying to shut charity down. Luckily for them, their names haven't been mentioned, as I assume it would be very bad for business if it got out.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 24, 2013)

The force is strong with Vi-Control!



Good job Mods!



Tanuj.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Apr 24, 2013)

@Resoded....it's pretty clear who the developer is I think!

But the dust has settled.


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## Windle (Apr 24, 2013)

So as our original suspicions have largely been confirmed, how about the idea of having a Free/Charity/Donation Announcement section so that we don't get potential future conflicts with the Commercial section?

As much as there seems to be disgust at the reasons for the thread being pulled for 48 hours, we should all agree that we want/need developers to carry on making libraries and to do that their businesses need to be worthwhile or we all lose.

If anyone of us had invested serious money making a product only to find out that a day or so before launch a competing product was being practically given away, how would you respond? (You can treat that question rhetorically!)

The fact that Mick Gordon's library also benefits a good cause only makes the situation morally more complicated.

I don't think there was ever going to be a win-win situation for this scenario so perhaps some more thought about avoiding the possibility in future?

W.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 24, 2013)

Windle @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> So as our original suspicions have largely been confirmed, how about the idea of having a Free/Charity/Donation Announcement section so that we don't get potential future conflicts with the Commercial section?
> 
> As much as there seems to be disgust at the reasons for the thread being pulled for 48 hours, we should all agree that we want/need developers to carry on making libraries and to do that their businesses need to be worthwhile or we all lose.
> 
> ...



To me, that looks like a balanced view and a worthwhile suggestion. The only downsides I see is that it would probably cause more work for mods and maybe a higher cost for Frederick.


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## Windle (Apr 24, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> The only downsides I see is that it would probably cause more work for mods and maybe a higher cost for Frederick.



I'm not sure it would create extra work for the Mods. By keeping Commercial and Other in separate sections then there would, hopefully, be less need for Moderation.

I think Mike Greene alluded to the dirt cheap cost of advertising here. Perhaps time for a small increase to cover any extra administration issues?

Also, maybe time to say goodbye to the Gigastudio section if that would keep costs down? Not a significant number of posters there for quite some time....

W.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 24, 2013)

Hmm yeah, quite like the idea of a Community Announcements section for any not-for-profit projects and releases. There's been some great freebies over the last year or two, and these often turn into group efforts.... might be nice to give 'em a home. And quite right about the Gigastudio section.

On the general point of the timing between commercial and charity releases... well, that's kinda life really. Free market and all that. It's not like these are the first dubstep products to market, and there have been plenty of commercial releases that have come to market at about the same time and cover similar ground. It's not much of an excuse to bash charity.


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## Windle (Apr 24, 2013)

VI-C is paid for with donations but, I would guess, mostly developers paying to advertise with banners and the chance to post regularly in the Commercial section.

I'd be happy if the Commercial section was policed a little more vigorously to protect those who, essentially, pay for this site and let the other sections carry on with a more liberal policy. Introducing a Community section (like the name, Guy!) would give Mick et al a chance to promote a worthy cause while still affording commercial interests to prosper.

It is a Free Market but there's no reason we can't work out a better solution within that basic idea.

W.


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## Darthmorphling (Apr 24, 2013)

Windle @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> So as our original suspicions have largely been confirmed, how about the idea of having a Free/Charity/Donation Announcement section so that we don't get potential future conflicts with the Commercial section?
> 
> As much as there seems to be disgust at the reasons for the thread being pulled for 48 hours, we should all agree that we want/need developers to carry on making libraries and to do that their businesses need to be worthwhile or we all lose.
> 
> ...



You can't just say that because a developer spent a great deal of money developing a library, that some other entity is not allowed to release their product. A developer invests in their products, knowing full well that there are risks involved. If a charityware product is released around the same time, then the commercial product had better really outperform the cheaper alternative. That's the way business works.

If I decide to record one of my students, let's assume they are really good players, playing violin and then release a charityware project around the same time as Embertone's violin, can we expect there to be any conflict? Somehow, I don't think that Embertone really needs to worry. However, this alleged unnamed developer might be a little unsure of their library, and realize that its use is going to be quite niche, so they are worried that a much less expensive option is available. Smacks of entitlement actually.


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## germancomponist (Apr 24, 2013)

What has happened here is in no way ok. ..


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## woodsdenis (Apr 24, 2013)

This story has now appeared on Reddit with stories of how alleged dev in this case, deleted bad comments about their similar library from their Youtube channel.

In fairness I will not link to it as nothing has been admitted to in this case, a quick search of Reddit/wearethemusicmakers will give you the thread. Really bad PR either way for the company. I have a few of their products and have no issue with them.


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## choc0thrax (Apr 24, 2013)

Clear evidence that Dubstep is harmful to children. Fascinating Reddit read. o[]) o[]) o[]) o[]) o[]) nom nom nom


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## Windle (Apr 24, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> You can't just say that because a developer spent a great deal of money developing a library, that some other entity is not allowed to release their product. A developer invests in their products, knowing full well that there are risks involved. If a charityware product is released around the same time, then the commercial product had better really outperform the cheaper alternative. That's the way business works.



I am in no way condoning what has gone on. The action seems to have back-fired spectacularly in terms of PR within the community.

What I am suggesting is to find a better way to let all the projects - be they charitable or business co-exist without the messy situation we have here.

W.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 24, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> If I decide to record one of my students, let's assume they are really good players, playing violin and then release a charityware project around the same time as Embertone's violin, can we expect there to be any conflict?


Definitely not. Your library would be met with open arms. Heck, you could even record one of your students _singing_ and release it for free in direct competition to my Realivox library and you will have no trouble with the mods at all. (Not that I'm suggesting you do! :mrgreen: )

As Craig said before, this was a very unique situation. It had nothing to do with advertising. It had nothing to do with us supporting developers. (VI's purpose is as a forum for _members,_ not as a tool for developers. Developers are welcome, of course, but they're not why the forum was started.) And it has nothing whatsoever to do with one project being for charity.

I can't comment further, because this boils down to a dispute between the parties involved and we've decided it's not our place to get involved. It's also not our place to tell one side or the other's story, so there's not much more we can say. I can't imagine a similar situation occurring again, and even if it does, we're better prepared next time.

One other minor point: There might be some confusion about the Commercial Announcements section. It's open to anyone, not just advertisers. Mick is free to promote there. Datamorphling can announce his violin (but not vocal, right???) library there. Until recently, East West was not an advertiser here, yet there was no problem at all with them making announcements. VI Control is cool that way. We *like* the announcements because they benefit members. (Although I think you're restricted to one announcement per month, or something like that.) So there's really no need for a separate section. And again, that had nothing to do with drama here.


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## sin(x) (Apr 24, 2013)

Couldn't charity projects simply be posted to the Sample forum? After all, a case could be made that they aren't commercial in the traditional sense. They'd probably get more attention there anyway, and the capitalists in the commercial forum wouldn't have to play with the hippie kids. :mrgreen:

In all seriousness though, *if* the thing went down the way some are suspecting – and I really wish either of the involved parties would comment on this, as suspicions are rarely constructive –, I don't think there's any obligation on the part of charity developers or the vi-c mods to change their behavior (except maybe to not cave in to the mere implication of legal trouble that doesn't directly target vi-c).


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## germancomponist (Apr 24, 2013)

I think it has nothing to do with where this thread was posted..... .


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## Darthmorphling (Apr 24, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Wed Apr 24 said:
> 
> 
> > If I decide to record one of my students, let's assume they are really good players, playing violin and then release a charityware project around the same time as Embertone's violin, can we expect there to be any conflict?
> ...



Just so you can breathe easier, I have no plans on doing a vocal library. Although, my 6 year old has a really distinctive sounding whiny-cry that I could sample and create a library from that. And when I use the word distinctive, I mean freakin' annoying. Still love him though. 

Also, Embertone, rest assured that I actually have no students who can play violin so your library is quite safe :mrgreen: 

Now I do have access to some student violins, violas, and cellos that are sitting in our storage room, due to instrumental music being cut at our school. I would be very willing to sample me playing them and creat a scratchy, badly tuned, and catlike strings library.


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 24, 2013)

we might have a problem with that... :D


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## germancomponist (Apr 24, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> we might have a problem with that... :D



The problem is that no one tells what happened.... . o-[][]-o o/~ o=<


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## Darthmorphling (Apr 24, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Wed Apr 24 said:
> 
> 
> > we might have a problem with that... :D
> ...



I believe Craig was referring to my badly played string library suggestion.


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## nikolas (Apr 24, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed Apr 24 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Wed Apr 24 said:
> 
> 
> > we might have a problem with that... :D
> ...


Why are you so curious and impatient in finding out? If nobody from the mods are not telling you, or the rest it's either because we don't know, or you can't find out.

It's not like we're hurting the general public with that...

The other thread was restored, so this one by default is off topic right now!


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## NYC Composer (Apr 24, 2013)

I'm going to repeat this for those who feel the need to keep this drama going as some sort of spy vs spy conspiracy-I think the mods did a good job overall with this situation, and I'm not sure why certain people can't let it be. In specific-

Gunther-why don't you PM the mods and ask about this issue, and if they don't feel comfortable telling you, why not let it drop already? You've been a member here for quite a while-why keep this issue going with your suggestions of conspiracy? Don't you think the mods are fair and light-handed in general?


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## tawnia (Apr 25, 2013)

Hi everyone, I am Tawnia the COO of 8Dio. 

I hesitate to post this, but it is necessary.

I am here to set the record straight in regards to the speculation surrounding Mick Gordon's Dubstep library.

In Spring/Summer 2012 8Dio commissioned Mick Gordon to co-produce a Dubstep library based on a concept/specs entirely designed by Troels Folmann. Troels gave Mick feedback for months and we have +40 emails between them. Unfortunately, we had a gentleman's agreement and after many month of working with him, Mick suddenly backed out and told us he would not sign our contract. We offered to buy all the assets as to the agreement and he refused. This set our company back as we had worked with him in good faith. We received a great deal of inquiries and emails over the past many months requesting the release of the library, since we had posted initial demos (roughly identical to the ones Mick posted).

Almost a year goes by and 8Dio announces its Dubstep library - and Mick Gordon announces his charity the day after.

We support any charitable act - and we encourage everybody to buy it and support this cause.

Ps. This is my first time posting on VI by the way and never intended to crash the party this way.

: )

Please contact me ([email protected]) if you have any further questions.


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## germancomponist (Apr 25, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 25 said:


> Gunther-why don't you PM the mods and ask about this issue, and if they don't feel comfortable telling you, why not let it drop already? You've been a member here for quite a while-why keep this issue going with your suggestions of conspiracy? Don't you think the mods are fair and light-handed in general?



The mods here are very ok, no question! But I don't like it when when very strong things happen without clarification. 

So now there is tawnia's post and it let the story shine in a completely other light.


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## hector (Apr 25, 2013)

tawnia @ Thu Apr 25 said:


> Hi everyone, I am Tawnia the COO of 8Dio. I hesitate to post this


You should have perhaps hesitated as unfortunately you haven't really set anything straight, just provided context-less information that comes across as a smear and serves no real purpose unless you are able to publicly clarify the reason behind the contract not being signed by Mick Gordon (ie. change of terms, change of payment, change of royalties, misunderstanding, etc.)

The back-story of the library or timing (many competing developers release similar products at similar schedules - that is the business) has not been questioned or need clarification here.

The (suggested) actions of 8dio using legal threats to undermine a commercial competitor with no legal basis and little regard for its charitable cause is.



tawnia @ Thu Apr 25 said:


> but it is necessary


Based on what has become of the thread I would say if your real intent was to clarify things, the following would be a good start:

- Do 8dio own the rights to any of the content Mick released in this product?

- Did 8dio (yourself, Troels Folmann, an employee, associate or affiliate) request that Mick's thread be removed?

If you cannot provide information for either of those there is no sense in your posting.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 25, 2013)

Well, I initially asked the question and we now have a much fuller answer (if not a complete one). We know it was 8dio who applied the pressure, and thanks to Tawnia we have their case. There is a real danger that - as the mods here called it - a private dispute now gets raked over in public. Personally I'd welcome a post as a response from Mick to Tawnia's post, but after that it would probably be a good idea to then let it be... does that sound like the best way forward here to avoid a thread from hell?


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## germancomponist (Apr 25, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Apr 26 said:


> Well, I initially asked the question and we now have a much fuller answer (if not a complete one). We know it was 8dio who applied the pressure, and thanks to Tawnia we have their case. There is a real danger that - as the mods here called it - a private dispute now gets raked over in public. Personally I'd welcome a post as a response from Mick to Tawnia's post, but after that it would probably be a good idea to then let it be... does that sound like the best way forward here to avoid a thread from hell?



+1


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## Daniel James (Apr 26, 2013)

hector @ Thu Apr 25 said:


> tawnia @ Thu Apr 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi everyone, I am Tawnia the COO of 8Dio. I hesitate to post this
> ...



+1 this.

-DJ


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## Bernard Duc (Apr 26, 2013)

All Dubstep libraries are infringing a copyright.

Here is the copyright owner: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=76GjTE3zpU0#t=15s

:D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 26, 2013)

There are snakes in our little forest, just waiting to bite. Has anyone else in this thread ever worked for 8Dio or Tonehammer? Any unresolved issues playing out here? Yes, the snakes are out, and I, for one, am watching and will not forget. This is a small community, we're on the same boat, and a bad reputation will follow you from bow to stern.


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## Lex (Apr 26, 2013)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Fri Apr 26 said:


> Has anyone else in this thread ever worked for 8Dio or Tonehammer? Any unresolved issues playing out here?



Now that's a good question. 

alex


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 26, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Apr 25 said:


> Well, I initially asked the question and we now have a much fuller answer (if not a complete one). We know it was 8dio who applied the pressure, and thanks to Tawnia we have their case. There is a real danger that - as the mods here called it - a private dispute now gets raked over in public. Personally I'd welcome a post as a response from Mick to Tawnia's post, but after that it would probably be a good idea to then let it be... does that sound like the best way forward here to avoid a thread from hell?




this is basically Vi's leanings. Once we realized this was not our issue after some discussion we put the thread back. VI really does not care if there is a response to Tawina's post, its not our business, but on a personal level I am glad things are coming to light and the forum can see why there was a conflict. We still do not have all the info and that is another reason we tried to distance ourselves by putting the thread back. While there were possible legal ramifications that affected us pulling the thread 8dio never threatened VI so I want to make that clear.


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## MickGordon (Apr 26, 2013)

Hey all!

The library has been an amazing success with a big thanks going to the VI community. It has been out just under a week and has raised just over $5,000 for the ACMF! That has to be some sort of awesome record!!! The library has been plastered all around the web on Facebook pages, Tweets, blogs, press, news sites and forums - everyone has really gotten behind the cause and it's been truly amazing. Thanks to you all!!!

Regarding the above, If 8Dio has an issue with myself or the library I would ask that they do the professional thing and contact me through the appropriate means rather than through forums. Attempting to drag someone into a childish mud-slinging match on a forum isn't appropriate and isn't positive or constructive.

However, the community has been very supportive of the library and if the community wishes a right of reply to the statements posted by Tawnia then I will consider it. Although, it must be said that the reply would be negative and detrimental to 8Dio, which isn't the goal of this thread or this forum.

On the topic of the forum however, I was kept in the dark as to why my thread was removed from the commercial section and still to this day nobody has given me a solid answer why. All I was told was 'legal reasons'. This is a legitimate concern to all sample developers, charity or not. Maybe someone would care to shed some light on this finally? If there were no threats from 8Dio (as Craig mentioned above), then why was there a decision to remove the library's post? The front page of the commercial section currently has around five string libraries, four hybrid libraries and two ethnic libraries, but two Dubstep libraries is legally problematic? If there was a legal concern, _why weren't posts from both libraries taken down?_ I'm not looking to hate on anyone, I'm just curious as to what I did wrong? If I have made a mistake, it would be great to detail that so future developers can avoid such issues.

Lastly, I started this post detailing how successful this library has been for the charity. It is a charitable library where 100% of all the money donated goes to the ACMF. There is no personal gain here, it is all for a greater cause. This is a _positive_ thing and whilst some negativity has reared its head, lets keep focused on the positiveness and the good things that come from it!


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## woodsdenis (Apr 26, 2013)

@MickGordon Take the high ground on this, I don't want to know the ins and outs of your dealings with 8Dio, this is not for a forum discussion. I am delighted to have contributed to the libraries charity and am buzzed by its success, well done.

@tawnia We are all adults here, if someone does not want to sign a contract its simply because they find the contract or the people behind it unacceptable in some way. The level of that unacceptability and details of your dealings should not be aired in public. 

May I also suggest your dealings with the whole launch of your Dubstep library have been atrocious.

http://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicMa ... emoved_me/

You also seem to be posting your response on multiple web forums, even on threads on Reddit which is addressing a completely different issue.

I use two of your libraries, and have no issue at all with your company, However the launch of this "Dubstep" library has not portrayed 8Dio in a good light at all, talking of legal action, banning people and deleting threads from Facebook is not good publicity or practice.


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## madbulk (Apr 26, 2013)

Friends, we don't know the deal and we're not entitled to know the deal. As Ned alluded to, it's probably not even in our best interests to know the deal and have it aired here.
And thinking you've got it figured out and there's good guys and bad guys and clear title to right and wrong -- this is in my experience usually just more wrong.
Disagreements happen. So we lost the thread for a couple of days. If anything Guy's "where'd it go?" thread may even have brought the charity proj MORE attention."
And as for VI-C, we smell like a rose, no harm done, discretion, etc. 
Let it go.


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 26, 2013)

madbulk @ Fri Apr 26 said:


> Friends, we don't know the deal and we're not entitled to know the deal. As Ned alluded to, it's probably not even in our best interests to know the deal and have it aired here.
> And thinking you've got it figured out and there's good guys and bad guys and clear title to right and wrong -- this is in my experience usually just more wrong.
> Disagreements happen. So we lost the thread for a couple of days. If anything Guy's "where'd it go?" thread may even have brought the charity proj MORE attention."
> And as for VI-C, we smell like a rose, no harm done, discretion, etc.
> Let it go.



Amen to that. I would like to keep as many of my various warm and fuzzy feelings for both Mick and 8Dio as intact as possible.


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## Hannes_F (Apr 26, 2013)

MickGordon @ Fri Apr 26 said:


> On the topic of the forum however, I was kept in the dark as to why my thread was removed from the commercial section and still to this day nobody has given me a solid answer why. All I was told was 'legal reasons'. This is a legitimate concern to all sample developers, charity or not. Maybe someone would care to shed some light on this finally? If there were no threats from 8Dio (as Craig mentioned above), then why was there a decision to remove the library's post?



Mick, I am not involved in any party or a moderator but let me answer this from a common sense view.

1. This forum has a history of new sample library developers showing up from thin air with stolen content. Being stern in questions of piracy this has not been treated as jokes.

2. Obviously 8dio is an established developer that runs an official sample developer business since years while you are the new kid on the block regarding sample libraries.

3. Equally obviously 8dio had a feeling that information and know-how about how to make a library has been transferred from them to you more than vice versa. Whether this is true or not or should even have any consequences without a written contract or NDA is a totally different question.

4. Clear as light Frederick has got some e-mail from 8dio while being abroad. I don't need psychic powers or a crystal ball for that assumption.

5. Since you are the new kid and 8dio has a good reputation he closed down your thread and not 8dio's - until the issue was reviewed.

6. After looking into it the mods decided 8dios claims should not be their business and unlocked the thread.

7. It is highly probable that in a similar case the forum administration will be on guard and ask more questions. 

8. It is also highly probable that 8dio's reputation has changed a bit due to this event and will not be quite the carte blanche it has been before.

All this is very clear to me - and certainly for you too. The question is why you are asking such a rhetorical question. Are you aiming at a stone-carved official regulation about how unknown developers should be treated equally to established ones? Is that what you intend?

Regulations or not - an increased sensitivity in that regard can certainly be taken as a given now.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 26, 2013)

Well in terms of the specifics here, I think us mere mortals now know enough about this case really. Just as the mods said, this is a private dispute, with the caveat that Mick says he didn't appear to know he was even in one as neither 8dio or anyone from VI-C told him what was going on. Mick's decided to avoid mud slinging he won't delve further into his side of the story, and now we know there's no legal case it's no-one's business here. In terms of PR, it's been pretty disastrous for 8dio (also factoring in their other heavy-handed tactics around this release). The comment "We support any charitable act - and we encourage everybody to buy it and support this cause" rings spectacularly hollow when you've insisted the thread gets pulled.

As to the wider implications - well, I'd hope that without some solid evidence of genuine legal issues (such as theft), VI-C might be slower to take one side and act on it so quickly and unilaterally. Without an immediate legal imperative, surely a case can be investigated further over a day or two before pulling anyone's thread? And finally if it is decided a thread does have to be pulled (I can see that might not have been clear from 8dio's initial claim if it were over-inflated ), I think the creator of that thread should be informed at the outset. Those issues aside, I think the mods ultimately did a great job at looking at the situation and realising the thread needed to be restored.

Lastly and most importantly, $5k in little more than a week is terrific news, and congrats to Mick.


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## Hans Adamson (Apr 27, 2013)

I think Frederick did the right thing when the thread initially was pulled. Frederick must protect vi-control from doubtful postings, and he acted promptly. As a developer I am grateful for this decisiveness. He then released the thread after looking into what had happened. No harm was done by pulling the thread for a day. It seems to be a private dispute between two parties, and who is to blame more than the other is not for us to judge. Maybe Mick possibly could have anticipated what could happen when posting a competing product at a low price for a charity a day after 8Dio's release if there was a dispute between him and 8Dio over such product? 

Old Swedish proverb:

"It is not one's fault when two are fighting."


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## NYC Composer (Apr 27, 2013)

Hans Adamson @ Sat Apr 27 said:


> I think Frederick did the right thing when the thread initially was pulled. Frederick must protect vi-control from doubtful postings, and he acted promptly. As a developer I am grateful for this decisiveness. He then released the thread after looking into what had happened. No harm was done by pulling the thread for a day. It seems to be a private dispute between two parties, and who is to blame more than the other is not for us to judge. Maybe Mick possibly could have anticipated what could happen when posting a competing product at a low price for a charity a day after 8Dio's release if there was a dispute between him and 8Dio over such product?
> 
> Old Swedish proverb:
> 
> "It is not one's fault when two are fighting."



+1. I think Frederick acted judiciously and it would probably be wise for him to do so in the future. There are various sharks in these waters-what difference does pulling a thread for a day make compared to facing some sort of legal brouhaha?

Oh, and btw-it's his site. Just sayin'.


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## TheUnfinished (Apr 27, 2013)

This has been an unusual, illuminating, ugly and insightful thread at various turns (typical for VI Control then!).

Mick and 8dio's dispute is certainly their own issue.

However, I think the fact that only one thread was temporarily downed upon one party's complaint is an act that should not be repeated. Both or neither is fair. Only taking down one thread does open up the opportunity for spurious complaints to be thrown around. Though this is hopefully fairly unlikely, given the tales of litigious behaviour those of us who work as or with sample developers are aware of, it can at least limit VI Control getting drawn into such ugly scenes.

But fair play to VI Control and the mods, good job in general (excepting one or two slightly silly posts).


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 27, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Apr 26 said:


> Well in terms of the specifics here, I think us mere mortals now know enough about this case really. Just as the mods said, this is a private dispute, with the caveat that Mick says he didn't appear to know he was even in one as neither 8dio or anyone from VI-C told him what was going on. Mick's decided to avoid mud slinging he won't delve further into his side of the story, and now we know there's no legal case it's no-one's business here. In terms of PR, it's been pretty disastrous for 8dio (also factoring in their other heavy-handed tactics around this release). The comment "We support any charitable act - and we encourage everybody to buy it and support this cause" rings spectacularly hollow when you've insisted the thread gets pulled.
> 
> As to the wider implications - well, I'd hope that without some solid evidence of genuine legal issues (such as theft), VI-C might be slower to take one side and act on it so quickly and unilaterally. Without an immediate legal imperative, surely a case can be investigated further over a day or two before pulling anyone's thread? And finally if it is decided a thread does have to be pulled (I can see that might not have been clear from 8dio's initial claim if it were over-inflated ), I think the creator of that thread should be informed at the outset. Those issues aside, I think the mods ultimately did a great job at looking at the situation and realising the thread needed to be restored.
> 
> Lastly and most importantly, $5k in little more than a week is terrific news, and congrats to Mick.



first i will address the the Vi thing, I think it was handled about as well as it could have been considering Frederick was leaving the country.

On a personal level, not speaking for VI-C here I don't think it hurts 8Dio PR at all. I think they had every right to try and protect their investment in time and money, as I would believe anyone here would have. Imagine how angry you would be if you worked many hours on a product, released it and had an old collaborator release a similar product the next day. The fact that they trusted someone with no contract in place, something they will probably change in the future, shows they were mostly guilty of being too trusting and personally I find that a trait I admire.

I also believe those here who would carry a grudge against a company and not buy their products because of this were not going to buy their products anyway. I'll buy a new or better mousetrap from just about anybody. If someone makes a product that improves my mockups, saves me time, inspires, I am going to buy it unless i know that money is going to help build a North Korean nuclear weapon.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 27, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Apr 27 said:


> On a personal level, not speaking for VI-C here I don't think it hurts 8Dio PR at all. I think they had every right to try and protect their investment in time and money, as I would believe anyone here would have. Imagine how angry you would be if you worked many hours on a product, released it and had an old collaborator releases a similar product the next day. The fact that they trusted someone with no contract in place, something they will probably change in the future, shows they were mostly guilty of being too trusting and personally I find that a trait I admire.
> .



Sorry Craig that really sounds like 8Dio spin going on there, As I have stated previously I have nothing against 8Dio, I also have no idea what went on between the two parties and therefore cannot make a statements like that. How do you know what happened ? How do you know what may or may not have been in the contract, or why there was no contract initially. Do you know that 8Dio are too trusting? If so I assume you know them personally and that immediately negates a balanced view.

All supposition without any facts. I simply wouldn't make a judgment on this issue at all.

As for did this hurt 8Dio, well it certainly didn't do them any favours, as an exercise in how not to handle a situation, this should be a lesson to all devs.

As for the VI Control response, hindsight is a great thing. When confronted with legal threats it is sometimes better to be cautious, ultimately the situation was rectified which is the main issue.


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 27, 2013)

Denis, if you read through the threads you will see no contract was in place and no money exchanged hands.

Maybe the move to continue with the product after the 2 parties split was not a good one, but I have no idea about that.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 27, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Apr 27 said:


> Denis, if you read through the threads you will see no contract was in place and no money exchanged hands.
> 
> Maybe the move to continue with the product after the 2 parties split was not a good one, but I have no idea about that.



TX Craig, I totally understand there was no contract and no money was exchanged.
As to why the project did not continue is pure specualation. Who did what to who, who felt betrayed, angry, too trusting or not, or whatever is none of my business and speculation on that should not be carried out here, is all I am saying. 

If 8Dio or Mick Gordon want to comment that is their business.


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## wst3 (Apr 27, 2013)

having lived through a (frighteningly) similar adventure I think it would be wise for both parties to let the dust settle and move on.

There are always two versions, and often both sides believe that they are right, and that they were wronged. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes it isn't.

If I could share the details I think many here would be quite surprised at the things that can go wrong with something as simple as an audio interface design.

Both cases underscore a point that is made quite frequently by a lot of the more senior members here:

If you expect to get paid you need a contract, and once you agree on the terms you need to honor them. Which means you need to understand the terms before you sign! Working from a handshake is seldom a good idea.

I've been both the victim and the bad guy of handshake deals... it's never as simple as it seems. Neither case was as clear cut as we'd all like though.

Unless you are one of - or even both of the two parties you probably won't know the whole story.

Speculating does little good...

In this case I'm afraid that 8dio has created a real PR nightmare for themselves. Even if Mick is the bad guy (and I'm NOT suggesting that he is), they could have handled it better.

They didn't.

So let's allow 8dio and Mick the opportunity to learn from this misadventure.

Personally - and that's all it is - I'm very disappointed in 8Dio. 

I first 'met' Troels several years ago when I wanted to purchase one of the Forgotten Voices libraries. He was very generous with his time and helped me think through lots of questions, most had more to do with transitioning from GS to Kontakt. 

Since that time I've purchased a number of libraries from Tonehammer and 8Dio (and SoundIron). I'll continue to do so... they are good libraries that help me realize my compositions and designs.

And while I really don't 'get' dubstep, Mick's library will provide me with a cool, and inexpensive entry, and even if it turns out I have no ear for the genre, the money goes to a worthy cause.

As for Fred and the moderators... I'm not sure they had any option other than to temporarily pull the thread - they were operating with minimal information.

I think this is one of those sad cases where no one wins... but we can all take something away from it. 

I know I have - I feel a lot less antagonistic about the case where I was the good guy, and a little bit worse about the case where I was the bad guy<G>!


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## Daniel James (Apr 27, 2013)

Hans Adamson @ Sat Apr 27 said:


> I think Frederick did the right thing when the thread initially was pulled. Frederick must protect vi-control from doubtful postings, and he acted promptly. As a developer I am grateful for this decisiveness. He then released the thread after looking into what had happened. No harm was done by pulling the thread for a day. It seems to be a private dispute between two parties, and who is to blame more than the other is not for us to judge. Maybe Mick possibly could have anticipated what could happen when posting a competing product at a low price for a charity a day after 8Dio's release if there was a dispute between him and 8Dio over such product?
> 
> Old Swedish proverb:
> 
> "It is not one's fault when two are fighting."



Keeping in mind your partner Amanda Seward acts as 8dio's legal representative I can imagine your post is a little bit biased here. And you cant be serious that you cant see the benefit 8dio would have gained from being the only dubstep product on display on its launch day. The fact 8dio were fully aware they owned none of the sounds and had no contractual claim to them yet still threatened legal action anyway smells a bit like a business strategy, one in a line of numerous threats, intimidation and bully tactics that you can hear rumors of around the social media and on various message boards since this topic blew up.

I agree with Guy that the comments that 8dio posted about how they support charitable cases and everyone should buy it kinda falls on deaf ears and is an obvious PR damage limitation. And of course it should be, the past few days have been horrible in terms of bad publicity for 8dio, here is hoping that moving on this is the last time we hear of this happening and we can go back to the way things were before things got so heavy handed.

Like Craig said I don't particularly see this hurting 8dio sales too much, if they make something amazing we will all buy it. I am more than willing to forgive and forget about all this hassle, I just hope we can all just look to the future and start being less aggressive towards one another, there is more than enough room in this industry for everyone and not every competing library needs to be an enemy.

I think I will probably bow out from this one now (unless someone posts something I have to respond to) But I just wanted to commend the mods for taking all the abuse and still rising above. You guys are great 

-DJ


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## NYC Composer (Apr 27, 2013)

Damn. Now I'm in it. (sigh). I did contribute and dl Mick's library, which is great. That said:

There is a stinking dead trout in the middle of the table that everyone is politely ignoring because, well, it's for charity after all-

Doesn't the timing of Mick's very generous release look a teeny tiny bit vengeful to anyone? 'cause charity or no, it sure looks like a "Take that, 8Dio!" to me.

The timing of Mick's release looks like more than business to me. It looks like a dispute that got heated and then personal.

I'm not actually that much of an 8Dio fan, so I come to this conclusion pretty objectively.


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## Hans Adamson (Apr 27, 2013)

Daniel James @ Sat Apr 27 said:


> Hans Adamson @ Sat Apr 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I think Frederick did the right thing when the thread initially was pulled. Frederick must protect vi-control from doubtful postings, and he acted promptly. As a developer I am grateful for this decisiveness. He then released the thread after looking into what had happened. No harm was done by pulling the thread for a day. It seems to be a private dispute between two parties, and who is to blame more than the other is not for us to judge. Maybe Mick possibly could have anticipated what could happen when posting a competing product at a low price for a charity a day after 8Dio's release if there was a dispute between him and 8Dio over such product?
> ...



Daniel,

I find your insinuating post nasty and mean. I have been in this business for more than 13 years, and have experienced this kind of situations many times through the years, from the very earliest first start of the Northern Sounds Forum. Yes, my wife Amanda is an entertainment lawyer and represents many entities in the film and TV business, and also has clients in in several levels of the sample software business. Please do not judge me from the standards of yourself and alikes. 

My post was in support of Frederick, because I know the pressure that the owner of a forum such as this is under. Frederick is standing tall and doing everything right, and I don't want him to be intimidated by anyone with a motive of any kind. 

It appears to me, and from what I understand, also to most of the commenters in this thread, that Mick's posting of the charity dubstep library one day after 8dio's release was retribution in a dispute between them. The holier-than-thou attitude doesn't fit that fact. Bringing a dispute into Vi-control in form of retribution may be allowed, but don't take me or anyone else for an idiot. The charity posting a day after 8dio's does not appear as an "innocent mistake" to me. Does it to you???

I have not taken anyone's side in this and I resent nasty postings like yours which only serves the purpose of intimidating posters not following your "leader"

After 13 years in this busines I am fully capable of evaluate a situation of this kind. My posting supported Frederick and suggested that the consequences the actions of Mick's postings on this forum were not surprising, since they seem to be designed to hurt 8dio in an internal dispute.

Please leave my wife out of this. 

Do you have a personal issue with 8dio, and a hatch to grind? Is that why you would post something like this?

/Hans


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## Daniel James (Apr 27, 2013)

> I find your insinuating post nasty and mean. I have been in this business for more than 13 years, and have experienced this kind of situations many times through the years, from the very earliest first start of the Northern Sounds Forum. Yes, my wife Amanda is an entertainment lawyer and represents many entities in the film and TV business, and also has clients in in several levels of the sample software business. Please do not judge me from the standards of yourself and alikes.



Ok first it was neither nasty or mean. In a topic as sensitive as this I thought the fact that your partner (the fact she is your wife has no bearing here I am speaking on the business level not a personal one) was 8dio's legal representative and this thread is about legal matters was worth noting with regards to your comments about how there being no issue with the post being taken down when its been mentioned many times how it being so was at the benefit of 8dio.



> My post was in support of Frederick, because I know the pressure that the owner of a forum such as this is under. Frederick is standing tall and doing everything right, and I don't want him to be intimidated by anyone with a motive of any kind.



I agree with you here, we both want the same thing. In fact its the exact point I am arguing. The fact the post was removed in the first place because of legal action, I and others I believe will see as a form of intimidation in itself....the type of behavior we are hearing about being used frequently, if you are reading the messageboards and social media posts.



> It appears to me, and from what I understand, also to most of the commenters in this thread, that Mick's posting of the charity dubstep library one day after 8dio's release was retribution in a dispute between them. The holier-than-thou attitude doesn't fit that fact. Bringing a dispute into Vi-control in form of retribution may be allowed, but don't take me or anyone else for an idiot. The charity posting a day after 8dio's does not appear as an "innocent mistake" to me. Does it to you???



I can't speak for Mick's intentions and neither are they the main problem with whats going on. The MAIN problem here is that 8dio used legal threats to have that post removed to the benefit of their own product, knowing full well there was no case, providing them with no competition on their release date. So far I have been repeatedly asking what steps are in place to make sure this strategy doesnt become more common place. Now as for the timing of Mick's library, business strategy or not, it's a free market, he is fully within his rights to decide to compete with whomever he likes when he likes, I believe 8dio have had competing products released alongside others in past, as well as dropping the price of their competing products on a competitors launch day, which are all legitimate business strategies.....trying to use legal threats to have the competition removed however is not and is something we shouldn't accept as a community (both developers and the vi-control). The mods have done the best with the hand they have been dealt in this regard, but I feel they have been dragged into something totally not of their doing.



> I have not taken anyone's side in this and I resent nasty postings like yours which only serves the purpose of intimidating posters not following your "leader"



Again my post wasn't nasty, I felt it was worth mentioning the relevant relation you have to this topic, given your comments.



> After 13 years in this busines I am fully capable of evaluate a situation of this kind. My posting supported Frederick and suggested that the consequences the actions of Mick's postings on this forum were not surprising, since they seem to be designed to hurt 8dio in an internal dispute.



Sure I don't have the 13 years of experience you keep reminding me of, but it doesn't take a decade to work out that releasing a competing library, regardless of motivation is a legitimate way to do business and threatning legal action, with no case, to benifit your own product is not.



> Please leave my wife out of this.



I'm speaking on a business level, She is your business partner aswell as 8dios legal representative. Your personal relationship is irrelevant, please don't try to insinuate I am stooping to some sort of below the belt level.



> Do you have a personal issue with 8dio, and a hatch to grind? Is that why you would post something like this?



Personally speaking no. The other way around, I'm not so sure lol. Any business dealings I have done with them in the past were seen through to contractual conclusion and on good terms. Any issue they have taken with me after that is their perogative. I have never and will never debate against someone because of _who_ they are, only _what_ they do. 

-DJ


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## windshore (Apr 27, 2013)

It might be wise for some of you to just stop posting on this thread. Let this be settled by the involved parties. If it continues for much longer, more skeletons may come out of the closet.

Be wise, otherwise their battle may become your war.


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## madbulk (Apr 27, 2013)

This is arguably getting stupider.
Again. You don't know much, your intuition mostly likely sucks and you in all likelihood don't get to know much more. Tough toast, folks.

(I do admit the bemusement keeps me coming back once a day or so -- before someone reminds me that I needn't read the thread if I so disapprove.)


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## MickGordon (Apr 27, 2013)

As stated previously the goal of this library is to support the charity. I don’t think it’s reasonable that I have to justify this on this particular forum again and again because the style happened to conflict with a similar library.



Hans Adamson @ Sat Apr 27 said:


> It appears to me, and from what I understand, also to most of the commenters in this thread, that Mick's posting of the charity dubstep library one day after 8dio's release was retribution in a dispute between them.



Just to correct you there Hans, “Share the Wubs” came out on April 19th, four days before 8Dio’s Dubstep which was released on the 22nd of April.
It is incorrect to assume that there was any agreement between 8Dio and myself. I have never been hired by them. “Share the Wubs” was designed and produced by myself and the other people credited.

I’d like to reiterate that I’d prefer not to post about a private business discussion the details of which are likely to be detrimental to 8Dio. The goal of this library is a positive one and is not designed to incite negativity.

In finishing I’d like to thank everyone who has supported the library to turn it into a great success!


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## nikolas (Apr 27, 2013)

Ok.

Innuendos about family members and hidden agendas need to stop now! It's ridiculous.

Now, if you think about it the thread has been restored there's no reason for this one to exist...

Further more, Mick, if I may, and as a member here, not a mod. 

I don't know how many "sales" (for the lack of a better word) you got from Vi-Control, but my guess is not THAT many, considering the same news are all around the web, including traffic heavy websites and forums. With 15 posts 10 of them (second number is mine, I've not looked to count) are about 8dio, even directly or indirectly. Your latest post pretty much says "I don't want to talk about private business chats because it might hurt 8dio". Well guess what: You're already hurting it with this very comment.

Your charity event was a success so there's no reason to keep posting in this thread. If you want to stay in Vi-Control you are most welcome to do so, and be a part of this community. If you want to stick around and keep throwing innuendos around, that's not very nice as you can gather.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2013)

Phew - I'm gonna suggest a thread lock. Here are my reasons.

1. I started the thread because a thread about a charitable release was pulled with no explanation or warning to the OP. I (and others) wanted to know why.

2. That question has been answered, certainly enough. Mick and 8dio informally collaborated on a project some time ago, then parted ways. 8dio felt aggrieved by the nature and timing of this release, and petitioned VI-C to remove the thread. VI-C did so as a temporary measure, and found there was no legal case as far as their involvement was concerned, so restored the thread. This thread's question answered.

3. This has implications for other developers, as as been clear from some contributions on this thread subsequently. While I have much sympathy with this, many mods have now contributed and I don't believe we are going to get any further here in terms of any sort of future policy guidance. They seem collectively happy with the outcome. For me, while a question remains over how to initially handle forthright developer complaints and communication between all parties, I think the mods did a great job in restoring the thread. Time to move on.

4. The insinuations over timing, motive, rights and wrongs are an unpleasant hiding to nothing. Here's how I see it - we have 8dio's side of the informal collaboration, we don't have Mick's and I can understand why he doesn't want to get involved in a public back and forth. As a result he's in a difficult position - either he doesn't defend himself at all from charges that he's behaved improperly, or is charged with making insinuations by saying why he doesn't want to. There is no good option for him right now. I certainly don't simply take at face value everything 8dio have said, especially given their actions. I see their narrative as one side of a story. But I fail to see how anything good can now come from pursuing this discussion here.

Here's what I take away - 8dio need to have a long hard think about their PR. Yesterday I noticed a composer on Facebook (whom AFAIK isn't active here) had changed their picture to be a graphic which says "I'm no 8diot". As far as I can tell, this is in response to the YouTube fracas, not this directly. My personal view is that their reputation has suffered, and there is a perception of suppressing dissenting voices. Someone made the comment "the new EW" with all the arguments that would bring. A long time ago Troels once PM'd me out of the blue to complain I wasn't supportive enough of them (this despite making many positive comments, recommending them to others and owning many of their products, but I've always tried to call things as I see them - he'd probably have a different take on that). I didn't take kindly to that, it felt like an attempt to intimidate and suppress my voice, and it is a filter through which I see many of these events.

As for Mick, he keeps reminding us - rightly - this is a charitable project. Maybe there are some school-of-hard-knocks lessons for a new developer in how you can be perceived. But I'm thrilled the library has raised so much money is such a short space of time, I'm very happy to have made a tiny free contribution to it of my own and I wish it every continued success.

In summary - I can't see anything good coming from this thread continuing. Lock?


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## choc0thrax (Apr 28, 2013)

My counter argument to this thread being locked is o[]) o[]) o[]) o[]) nom nom nom o[]) o[]) 






o[]) o[]) o[])


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2013)

LOLZ


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## reid (Apr 28, 2013)

Skeletons are good - bring on the dancing closets! o=?


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## NYC Composer (Apr 28, 2013)

it's not that large a step from locking contentious threads to banning contentious members. We really disagree on this point, Guy. Slippery slope and all that. Threads eventually die of their own accord because people run out of steam.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2013)

NYC Composer @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> it's not that large a step from locking contentious threads to banning contentious members. We really disagree on this point, Guy. Slippery slope and all that. Threads eventually die of their own accord because people run out of steam.



Well, buying more popcorn is a way to go...


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 28, 2013)

I need to clear up 2 erroneous statements here.

Once again 8dio did not threaten Vi-C with legal action

look at Hannes post, he did a good job of figuring things out.

8dio may have released their library 3 days after Mick's but it's release was announced on this forum one day before and earlier on Facebook.

While Nikolas and I agree as mods we differ here personally.

Mick's latest comments here on 8dio do not feel particularly contentious to me, just as 8dio is allowed to defend themselves how they wish, Mick is allowed to also, if he wishes to mention his dealings with 8dio were not to his liking and leave it at that seems fair enough.

I may discuss locking this thread but someone could open another, like a bad rash.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2013)

OK, I take it all back, get more popcorn because...



Craig Sharmat @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> 8dio did not threaten Vi-C with legal action



So I was thinking about this again, and now I really AM confused. I thought I understood what went on here, but clearly I don't... I don't mean to be difficult, but I can definitely see how disquieting this must be for other devs.

If 8dio didn't suggest legal action, on what basis was the thread pulled in the first place? What on earth can they have said? Can anyone just ask for a thread - charitable or otherwise - to be removed for a few days while a private dispute gets looked into, and have that granted? I've re-read Hannes thread, and the implication seems to be that if you are new and an existing dev doesn't like you, you're liable to get pulled.... is that it?

I honestly don't get it, it makes no sense to me, sorry if I'm being dumb. I can understand why a mod might ask a new person a question or two, but I can't see any grounds for pulling their new release thread, especially a charitable one.


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 28, 2013)

as Hannes posted


1. This forum has a history of new sample library developers showing up from thin air with stolen content. Being stern in questions of piracy this has not been treated as jokes. 

2. Obviously 8dio is an established developer that runs an official sample developer business since years while you are the new kid on the block regarding sample libraries. 

3. Equally obviously 8dio had a feeling that information and know-how about how to make a library has been transferred from them to you more than vice versa. Whether this is true or not or should even have any consequences without a written contract or NDA is a totally different question. 

4. Clear as light Frederick has got some e-mail from 8dio while being abroad. I don't need psychic powers or a crystal ball for that assumption. 

5. Since you are the new kid and 8dio has a good reputation he closed down your thread and not 8dio's - until the issue was reviewed. 

6. After looking into it the mods decided 8dios claims should not be their business and unlocked the thread. 


If Frederick had been around to discuss, things may have played out differently but it is his forum and he was about to have limited access and did what he thought was right at the time. He was heading to central america just as this came in. Us mods were left to figure things out from there which we eventually did. After we figured it out we had to wait to hear from Frederick who still currently has limited access and he said fine restore the thread.

Guy I suggest you let this be, it feels like you are trying to instigate a fight and I presume it is not your fight.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> Guy I suggest you let this be, it feels like you are trying to instigate a fight and I presume it is not your fight.



Not at all - I asked the question originally, is it not reasonable to look for an answer I understand?

Well, maybe Frederick being away has made this a much bigger deal and it was just one that got through the cracks. I don't find Hannes' explanation particularly reassuring as I take it to be exactly what I summarised in the previous post - Mick was a new kid, a bigger old kid didn't like him so his thread was taken down. As I said in an earlier post, you guys seem happy with the situation, and as I've repeatedly said I'm glad it got resolved pretty quickly, but if I were a mod I'd not want a repeat of what happened here - I'd ask questions first, at the very least keep everyone informed and not remove anything til there was some evidence.

But that's me. Hey, this wouldn't be the first time I've got in trouble for a cause that isn't mine, but just doesn't seem right to me. Call it a failing.


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 28, 2013)

We have explained our position numerous times. If you are not good with it we are fine with that.


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## nikolas (Apr 28, 2013)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> While Nikolas and I agree as mods we differ here personally.
> 
> Mick's latest comments here on 8dio do not feel particularly contentious to me, just as 8dio is allowed to defend themselves how they wish, Mick is allowed to also, if he wishes to mention his dealings with 8dio were not to his liking and leave it at that seems fair enough.
> 
> I may discuss locking this thread but someone could open another, like a bad rash.


But see 8dio has made little to no attempt to defend anything, while Mick keeps defending and mentioning 8dio, for various reasons, while at the same time there's nothing wrong going on: The charity event was a huge success, the original thread is there and everything is fine.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 28, 2013)

Nikolas the message below was posted twice in these forums and on numerous other Internet forums, please stop your blatant one sided view on this. if this not defending their position I don't know what is. They are completely within their rights to do this of course as is Mick Gordon, you seem to completely and conveniently ignore their posts here and all over the internet to make your point.



Hi everyone, I am Tawnia the COO of 8Dio. 

I hesitate to post this, but it is necessary. 

I am here to set the record straight in regards to the speculation surrounding Mick Gordon's Dubstep library. 

In Spring/Summer 2012 8Dio commissioned Mick Gordon to co-produce a Dubstep library based on a concept/specs entirely designed by Troels Folmann. Troels gave Mick feedback for months and we have +40 emails between them. Unfortunately, we had a gentleman's agreement and after many month of working with him, Mick suddenly backed out and told us he would not sign our contract. We offered to buy all the assets as to the agreement and he refused. This set our company back as we had worked with him in good faith. We received a great deal of inquiries and emails over the past many months requesting the release of the library, since we had posted initial demos (roughly identical to the ones Mick posted). 

Almost a year goes by and 8Dio announces its Dubstep library - and Mick Gordon announces his charity the day after. 

We support any charitable act - and we encourage everybody to buy it and support this cause. 

Ps. This is my first time posting on VI by the way and never intended to crash the party this way. 

: ) 

Please contact me ([email protected]) if you have any further questions.


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## nikolas (Apr 28, 2013)

woodsdenis @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> Nikolas the message below was posted twice in these forums and on numerous other Internet forums, please stop your blatant one sided view on this. if this not defending their position I don't know what is.


Lets see...

1. I live in Greece.
2. I don't own any 8dio, Tonehammer or other related products.
3. I've never met or talked with anyone from this company.
4. I am not getting paid to act like a mod.
*5. And I'm not acting like one right now (as I said above)*

Would you like to recheck your "blatant one sided view" and changed it an "opinion". Can you really tell me what's in it for me right now? Really, honestly, go ahead. get out your conspiracy theories, your acting together and whatever else is there and find a reason why I'd be one sided... Come on... I'm waiting!

EDIT: To your edit (or didn't notice it before). Mick has 15 posts most of which are in this thread. 8dio has a numerous posts, none of which are in this thread and only one from tawnia...


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 28, 2013)

May I respectfully suggest to all the participants that as this thread is now 4 pages long, nobody is going to make a point that will potentially change anyone's view that has not already been made.

Let them deal with it privately.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 28, 2013)

nikolas @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> woodsdenis @ Sun Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Nikolas the message below was posted twice in these forums and on numerous other Internet forums, please stop your blatant one sided view on this. if this not defending their position I don't know what is.
> ...



I never suggested there was something in it for you, be clear on that.

Yet again you misrepresent, Mick Gordon has posted 3 (three) times in this thread not 15 as you keep on repeating, or even most of the 15 posts you have counted.That is blatant misrepresentation of the truth IMO. Thats my opinion.

Why someone would even bother to do this is puzzling, who cares. You seem to ignore the numerous 8dio posts which littered the internet on this. Mods are meant to be balanced and fair. This is neither.


1. I have no idea what living in Greece has got to do with this
2. I actually do own two 8Dio products and have no issue with the company at all
3. I have never talked with anyone from the company either
4. "I am not getting paid to act like a mod" ???????.Lost me there
5. Still don't get it.

I will stress this again in case you don't understand, I have no issue with 8Dio or Mick Gordon, please stop inferring that. I can't stand falsehoods and inaccuracies to be left unchallenged that is all.

It is that simple, do not cloud the issue with your own


> "Really, honestly, go ahead. get out your conspiracy theories, your acting together and whatever else is there and find a reason why I'd be one sided... Come on... I'm waiting!


 paranoia


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## germancomponist (Apr 28, 2013)

I am not a mod but I think it is enough now. MAYBE someone had overreacted?! 

I know how often I do this and after a while I wish I didn't. 

It makes no sense to speculate again and again... .


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 28, 2013)

woodsdenis @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> Mick Gordon has posted 3 (three) times in this thread not 10 as you keep on repeating



Very true and - embarrassingly - I checked.

I don't get it either. I re-read all three of Mick's posts, they've all been polite and he's been at pains to repeatedly say he doesn't want to get into a slinging match, and yet he's targeted as a troublemaker for saying so and adding "it wouldn't reflect well on 8dio".

It's all very odd.


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## woodsdenis (Apr 28, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> woodsdenis @ Sun Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Mick Gordon has posted 3 (three) times in this thread not 10 as you keep on repeating
> ...



I agree Guy, all very odd. Just edited my post, Nikolas claims it was 15 (not 10) posts, most of which were in this thread!!!!!


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## nikolas (Apr 28, 2013)

woodsdenis @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> nikolas @ Sun Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > woodsdenis @ Sun Apr 28 said:
> ...


Okie...

The forum's acting up and twice I tried to preview and lost my post!

So here's that...

I'm REALLY sorry. I did say that I didn't do a post count, when I mentioned the number 10 (about Micks post) and that's a misinterpretation of things. Whoops me then. At least I've got the balls to say that I fucked up here.

I did read (now) all of micks post and my impression WAS wrong.

Now, if you want to talk about paranoia, etc, check again your post and see what you're accusing me off. Then try to be less insulting and check if someone has made an error. Finally never mind cause you're not worth the trouble, in all honesty! 

But I will finally say that Micks final post here had this part about NOT saying anything about private dealings with 8dio, because it would be detrimental for the company. As far as I'm concerned this could be taken as some sort of a warning (which is how I read it at first but I'm having doubts here).

You think it's odd? Suite yourself by all means! I'm acting alone here, with nobody on my back and the above are my own thoughts (just in case someone wants to drag others into this).


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## woodsdenis (Apr 28, 2013)

nikolas @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> woodsdenis @ Sun Apr 28 said:
> 
> 
> > nikolas @ Sun Apr 28 said:
> ...



Kudos Nikolas for owning up to mistake, I really admire that. Honestly.

I you feel I insulted you, I apologize also.


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## nikolas (Apr 28, 2013)

Denis,

Honestly, check the past posts: When I screw up I'm very up to say so... Really...



Friends! 

Now, should we let this ugly thread die? If there's anything between the two parties, I'm sure they can work it out themselves, without (my at least VERY awkward) posts... :-/


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## woodsdenis (Apr 28, 2013)

nikolas @ Sun Apr 28 said:


> Denis,
> 
> Honestly, check the past posts: When I screw up I'm very up to say so... Really...
> 
> ...



Friends :D I agree Page 5 now, I'm out.


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## Craig Sharmat (Apr 28, 2013)

I am going to lock this thread as I think everything has been covered here. if anyone has a problem with it they can pm me. I am visiting family on the road so I may not respond promptly.

Cheers

Craig


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