# Risks at pitching a project



## Markus S (Oct 26, 2010)

Recently I had a little unpleasant experience :

I participated at a (non paying) pitch some time ago , very nice project, but didn't get the deal - well that's life, it happens to all of us. But recently I came across the product and my music was used for the same (key-)scene it was written for, not the original file, but a 95% sound alike, and the theme was used in other tracks, as well.

As you can imagine, I was disappointed with the producers, I suppose they gave the track to the composer and asked him to copy the file as close as possible. We all get temp tracks from other composers in our work (be this a good or a bad thing), but it seems not fair to me to ask composers for submissions for a specific project, then choose one and ask for a copy of the submissions from composers they did like, but did not hire. That is really not the point of a pitch, I mean : hire me or hire me not, but if you don't hire me you can't have my music. 

It may be a money thing : Let's get the cheaper composer, but use the theme from the more expensive one (great bargain) or they have their habits (Wow, the new guy got a great theme here, we will keep it, but let's not change habits though)

I was wondering if you have had similar experiences (did this happen to you, or have you been asked to do this), and I would be interested in your opinion about this (I'm not asking for legal advice, as I'm not seeking to go into court about this).


----------



## rpaillot (Oct 26, 2010)

The composer i'm working for had this issue a few times. Exactly what you describe, thats called stealing ideas !! 
They did a "pitching" session to seek for ideas , not for composers ( they probably had a composer in mind already ) 

That's terrible and i'm afraid there are not much you can do, except if the melody they composed is 95 % the same as yours, so maybe you can do a legal threat in justice in that case. But from what i'm experiencing on a daily basis, this is a common practice, especially in the TV animation industry. I'm not sure if this happens often in the movie industry...


----------



## Ed (Oct 26, 2010)

Wow that sucks. Hope it doesnt happen to me.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 26, 2010)

I wonder how they would react if you told them that actually, since this was for a pitch and not the final version, the music you used is actually the music from another commercial project you did. You never thought that you would actually use it in their project, it was to give them an idea of what you might do. And that now you're concerned that the producers are going to freak when they hear what sounds like the music they bought, and thought was exclusive (rumour has it that they are considering legal proceedings)...


----------



## Rob Elliott (Oct 26, 2010)

This is a nice reminder on pitches that we make it clear WE 'own' the music until such time that they buy. In reality though................. :cry: 


(I have always felt that a relationship with a production company that is doing this sort of thing is never good in the long run....you might have dodged a 'future' bullet. Hopefully this knowledge makes it a little less painful now.)


----------



## ChrisAxia (Oct 26, 2010)

I sympathise with you. I had a very similar experò2{   í0ú2{   í0û2{   í0ü2{   í0ý2{   í0þ2{   í0ÿ2{   í1 2{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í1	2{   í1
2{   í12{   í12{   í1 2{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í12{   í1 2{   í1!2{   í1"2{   í1#2{   í1$2{   í1%2{   í1&2{   í1'2{   í1(2{   í1)2{   í1*2|   í1+2|   í1,2|   í1-2|   í1.2|   í1/2|   í102|   í112|   í122|   í132|   í142|   í152|   í162|   í172|   í182|   í192|   í1:2|   í1;2|   í1<2|   í1=2|   í1>2|   í1?2|   í[email protected]2|   í1A2|   í1B2|   í1C2|   í1D2|   í1E2|   í1F2|   í1G2|   í1H2|   í1I2|   í1J2|   í1K2|   í1L2|   í1M2|   í1N2|   í1O2|   í1P2|   í1Q2|   í1R2|   í1S2|   í1T2|   í1U2|   í1V2|   í1W2|   í1X2|   í1Y2|   í1Z2|   í1[2|   í1\2|   í1]2|   í1^2|   í1_2|   í1`2|   í1a2|   í1b2|   í1c2|   í1d2|   í1e2|   í1f2|   í1g2|   í1h2|   í1i              ò2|   í1k2|   í1l2|   í1m2|   í1n2|   í1o2|   í1p2|   í1q2|   í1r2|   í1s2|   í1t2|   í1u2|   í1v2|   í1w2|   í1x2|   í1y2|   í1z2|   í1{2|   í1|2|   í1}2|


----------



## Mike Greene (Oct 26, 2010)

That totally sucks. I do worry about it this happening, because I have participated in several pitches I thought were rigged.

I once pitched a theme for a primetime comedy where I was pretty sure they already had their guy. But it was major network, so I figured it was worth the gamble.

I didn't get the gig, but when I say the show finally air, the theme was in the same style I had done. Not an obvious musical direction. The composer did write his own melody (not a good one, IMHO) so there was no copyright issue. But I was pissed, because coming up with the quirky idea for the musical direction was a pretty big deal. As anyone who's done theme songs knows, the melody part is easy. It's coming up with the *direction* (style) of the song that's more than half the battle.

I like the way Ned thinks, by the way. :mrgreen:


----------



## madbulk (Oct 26, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Oct 26 said:


> I wonder how they would react if you told them that actually, since this was for a pitch and not the final version, the music you used is actually the music from another commercial project you did. You never thought that you would actually use it in their project, it was to give them an idea of what you might do. And that now you're concerned that the producers are going to freak when they hear what sounds like the music they bought, and thought was exclusive (rumour has it that they are considering legal proceedings)...



hmmm... that's pretty good


----------



## reddognoyz (Oct 26, 2010)

I've been taken several times. Here's a couple.

The B-pile:

You do a demo for a spot, usually free these days and the producer/music house/etc. has a preferred person. You wind up on the B-pile and the Producer says "we went through all these demo's", pointing to an impressive pile of demo's," and we're recommending these in the slim select pile. Which is comprised of tracks by the music houses co-owners or the producers son and nephews.

The Rip and Run: 

As mentioned several times above. I did multiple demos for an ID package for a kids network and then poof!!!! nothing. Several months later I hear MY track re-recorded under the id's I was working on. I called the producer many times. I never heard from that mother f*cker again. I don't wish him well.

The Foot in the Door:

"We only have $50 for this , but it'll get your foot in the door". Know what it'll make you??? The fifty buck guy. They'll just want the same fifty buck job next time.

I did a series of animatics for a now defunct ad agency. I hate animatics and they had 500 bucks for five of them. The producers repeatedly PROMISED me the whole package of ADs should they go final. I didn't get them, a big music house got them. They did come back with more animatics though. 

The Total buyout:

Where the client wants the publishing and the writers for some crappy reality show running on the discovery geriatrics network or some thing like that . For the love of god, don't ever ever ever do that.

A new one:

I was offered a chance to demo for the underscore for a big kids show. As big as they get. A billion dollar industry creating show.

Me: Does the demo pay anything?

Them: ummmm no.......

Me: I know the composer on the show now. Is he really leaving???

Then: We don't actually know.

Me: okay...... Is this a competitive demo?

Them: oh yes! we're getting lots and lots of demo's!!

Me okay....... well..... what would the job pay if it was actually a job and I actually got it?

Them: ummm.... we can't really tell you that........


i passed.


----------



## MacQ (Oct 26, 2010)

Why aren't we artists more litigious? Is it because we're a bunch of enlightened hippies who only want peace and light in the world? Or is it because we're so scared for our income that we let clients push us around?

I'd sue. And who cares if you don't get work from that production company again. Fact is, they'll very quickly develop a name for themselves as disreputable (especially if you're vocal about it). I just ... I just don't get why so many of us feel victimized, but won't take action when there are legal tools and precedents in place for both moral and financial retribution.

Hat-in-hand ANYTHING pisses me off. Start rocking the boat! 

~Stu


----------



## robteehan (Oct 26, 2010)

MacQ @ Tue Oct 26 said:


> Why aren't we artists more litigious? Is it because we're a bunch of enlightened hippies who only want peace and light in the world? Or is it because we're so scared for our income that we let clients push us around?
> 
> I'd sue. And who cares if you don't get work from that production company again. Fact is, they'll very quickly develop a name for themselves as disreputable (especially if you're vocal about it). I just ... I just don't get why so many of us feel victimized, but won't take action when there are legal tools and precedents in place for both moral and financial retribution.
> 
> ...



AMEN. 
If this happened to me I would make them regret it. Release the hounds.
Not only do they get a reputation - you will earn one too, as someone who stands up for himself and is not to be taken advantage of. Nobody wants to go to court - if you threaten to sue them, odds are they will settle and you'll make the money you should have earned.


----------



## a.leung (Oct 26, 2010)

Or... You'll get black listed with producers and labeled 'difficult to work with' triple edged sword? 

It's an exciting industry.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Oct 27, 2010)

a.leung @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> Or... You'll get black listed with producers and labeled 'difficult to work with' triple edged sword?
> 
> It's an exciting industry.



I wouldn't worry about not getting work with THAT producer again (cos, apart from anything else, you won't anyway no matter what you do). But do you think, if it really is a cut and dry case, that the potential gossip-mill would put off other producers?

It's what keeps us in our place, I guess...


----------



## Markus S (Oct 27, 2010)

Hello all,

Thanks a lot to all of you for sharing your experiences, feelings and opinions! I'd write "I'm happy not to be the only one", but in this case, I guess it would be preferable to have an isolate case.

About the legal issue : I'm not considering any legal actions, for different reasons, one of them being that they did change a few notes here and there, so I guess it's out of reach anyway. I suppose they knew very well, that they couldn't use the music or they would have used the same file. Now that I think about it, the funny (or not) thing is, that I would have a hard time proving that I did write this first and for them. Is a sent email enough to prove it (what if I transfered the file via an FTP server)? How do you prove you have written the theme before them, while their product is released and on the market? At least in Europe - while you are legally in your in your right -, it's actually pretty hard or pretty expensive to prove that you are author of a specific melody (you have to make a deposition at a notary's office, if you are not member of the local PROs) . So they release the thing first, if you didn't do anything to prove the date you created the music, it's quite difficult. Adding to this variations in the melody, structure and here we are.. it's quite vicious actually.

Looking forward to learn more about your experiences!


----------



## Blackster (Oct 27, 2010)

Markus S @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> How do you prove you have written the theme before them, while their product is released and on the market?
> 
> Looking forward to learn more about your experiences!



Hi Marus,

try this: Get all information together which proves you are holding all copyrights (pdfs, notes, a backup of the project on CD, etc. ...). Put this stuff in a package and bring it to your local post office. Send this package to your home address. Now you have an officially recognized stamp showing a date on the package. This stamp is legally valid in case of a lawsuit .... that's the "less expensive" method.

Here is the expensive way: Get your score, go to a notary and pay him around 500-1000 Euros in order to secure that you are the owner of all the rights.


----------



## Mike Greene (Oct 27, 2010)

Blackster, can't you just send in the normal copyright forms? Here in the U.S., it's only $35. You send either an audio file and/or pdf of the score and you're all set.

Not to nitpick, but the "mail it to yourself" method is not valid in the U.S. (I don't know about elsewhere.) That's because it's too easy to fake. An unscrupulous sort could simply mail an empty unsealed envelope to himself every month or so. Then he'd have a whole collection of ready to use "proof" with Post Office date stamps from any month he wants. Then, when he wants to prove he wrote a piece that he really didn't, he simply places his _new_ recording into an empty envelop with the desired _old_ date stamp, seals the envelope, and voila!


----------



## esteso (Oct 27, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Wed Oct 27 said:


> he simply places his _new_ recording into an empty envelop with the desired _old_ date stamp, seals the envelope, and voila!



Genius!


----------



## Markus S (Oct 28, 2010)

It is kind of ironic, because in the US you have to declare your copyright at the US Copyright Office (35,00$$), in Europe, you have your copyright anyway - it's free - you just need to write your music. But since it's "automatic" it's really hard to prove. The only valid method is the Notary, and it's really expensive (as Blackster wrote, it's about 500,00 €). The only thing the notary does, is to certificate that you did a deposition of "something" (a CD whatever) at a certain date. You still have to do all the legal procedures by yourself if you want to go to court. So, your copyright is granted to you, but you have a hard time proving it.

Local PROs allow legal registration (not sure on what basis), but for many reasons a lot of composers cannot join them (it's really worth another topic). I wouldn't rely on the "mail to yourself" technique for such important issues, as Mike wrote, it's easy to fake.


----------



## Henning (Oct 28, 2010)

What a pain, Marcus! Sorry to hear about your bad luck. Legal prosecution of copyright infringements is a difficult undertaking at best and can be costly if you lost the case. Apart from being able to prove that you wrote a particular piece of music at a time before the perpetrator, you need to prove that the perpetrator knew your work of music beforehand (which should not be too diffcult in your case), but most importantly the perpetrators musical work or part of it (which means melody in most cases) needs to be exactly the same as yours or very similar. In a court case there are quite a few intricacies to clarify in these matters so the court will rely on expert opinions. So your case depends at least partially on opinions of the respective expert(s) examining the case. What I want to say is, these court cases can be quite a hassle and costly.

The problem with these kind of copyright infringements is that if you are not prepared to go to court you will not be able to much about this. You can of course go and try to reach a settlement with the other side. Or if you know the composer you might be able to appeal to his sense of justice and might reach an agreement with him.

Anyway, I am of course very interested in the background of this story, so if you are at "Entwicklerpreis 2010" in Essen again this year, I hope you can tell me more about it. 

All the best,

Henning


----------



## rpaillot (Oct 28, 2010)

About legal actions, it's very rare to win . 

In my country ( France) , there was a TV show made, kinda Sherlock Holmes ( same era, same story ). And the opening credits was a rip-off Hans Zimmer Sherlock.

You can watch the music comparison here :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_5m3c7w ... 1&index=19 

Crazy isnt it ? 

I contacted Lorne Balfe on Facebook ( Hans Zimmer main arranger ) , and he said many things were different, like the melody. And he said legal actions wont help....

So if you can copy a hollywood score without any problems, so you can do the same with a smaller TV gigs ... unfortunately


----------



## Markus S (Oct 28, 2010)

Henning @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> You can of course go and try to reach a settlement with the other side. Or if you know the composer you might be able to appeal to his sense of justice and might reach an agreement with him.



Hello Henning, nice to read from you!

Actually I was pretty surprised they didn't try to find an agreement with me to solve this in a better way, they could have bought just this track or could have done just a few titles of the project, and leave the rest to the main composer, it doesn't seem so complicated.


----------



## reddognoyz (Oct 28, 2010)

It's clear to me that the Zimmer piece was used as the temp score. So of course the composer would match the tempo exactly so the hits would line up. I hear a LOT of similarities, but I feel that the second piece isn't a clone of the first. We used to call that a "sideways" . Same emotional import(can't copyright that) similar orchestration, same style same harmonic structure. Different piece of music though. 

If the situation was reversed, if it was the little guy being ripped of by the big guy, it would seem worse to me honestly. HZ is probably too busy scoring huge movies to be bothered with a little flattering borderline plagiarism.


----------



## noiseboyuk (Oct 28, 2010)

Tell you what, they did a good job at transposing the Zimmer piece and playing them together! And I agree with Red - while it's a steal in one sense, it would be very tricky to prove it in a court of law cos the tune is different.

Does anyone know of one single case where a composer successfully sued a production company in a case like Markus'?


----------



## Mike Greene (Oct 28, 2010)

Markus S @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> It is kind of ironic, because in the US you have to declare your copyright at the US Copyright Office (35,00$$), in Europe, you have your copyright anyway - it's free - you just need to write your music.


Just to be clear, in the U.S., the copyright is free and automatic as well. It's *registering* it that costs $35.

Registering does two things - First, it's ironclad proof you wrote the piece by the date you claim, since the Copyright Office is holding the proof.

Second, it's a required technicality in order to file suit. Of course, you don't have to register right away. You can register a piece years later when you discover an infringement. That's perfectly legal and you can sue to your hearts content, no matter how late your registration was.

However, if you don't register within three months of "first publication," you can only sue for actual losses. That can still be significant, since you can claim you should have been paid whatever you think the gig is worth, plus you can sue for the damage (lowered future value) to your song, since it's no longer a virgin piece of music. But. You lose the ability to sue for "compulsory damages," which is sort of like punitive damages.

I can't imagine things don't work similarly in Europe. Surely there's a similar way to register copyrights, other than everybody having filing cabinets full of notarized scores. A decade or two ago, there was a lot of work put into lining up the copyright laws with each other, to make things less complicated.

If not, I would guess you could register with the U.S. office. It's all electronic (that's the only way to qualify for the $35 rate) and I don't think you have to be a U.S. citizen. Here is where you go:

http://www.copyright.gov/register/


----------



## Ed (Oct 28, 2010)

rpaillot @ Thu Oct 28 said:


> You can watch the music comparison here :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_5m3c7w ... 1&index=19
> 
> ...



WTF? ridiculously similar!

makes me feel better about this track Im ripping off this week though, phew!


----------



## Ed (Oct 28, 2010)

Small random noob question.

What IS "publishing"?


----------



## Ed (Oct 28, 2010)

Killed thread


----------



## noiseboyuk (Oct 29, 2010)

Ed @ Fri Oct 29 said:


> Killed thread



There needs to be a word for an internet-irony-ambiguity, the definition of which is "due to text-based limitations, not sure if someone is asking a genuine question and if so what it is exactly, or if it's a joke, leading to no-one knowing what to say in case they got hold of the wrong end of the stick and look accordingly daft"


----------

