# Refurbished mac pro or custom build pc: is there much difference in speed?



## Noizmak3r (Nov 1, 2017)

hoping to get some opinions on this

given the choice between a built pc: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/vYwgkT

and a refurbished 2010 mac pro 1x6 core: https://ipowerresale.com/product/2010-mac-pro-2-66ghz-12-core-westmere/?


which would you recommend over the other, and why? either of these would have 64gb ram capacity. is the cpu of the 2010 inferior or superior to the 2012 mac min (which I use now)? How much more powerful would this pc be than the 2010?

thanks


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 1, 2017)

The 2010 is older technology, I would personally go with the PC unless you must have Mac. In fact, I would build that PC and possibly use your current Mac Mini as a master. But if you're not using Logic pro, just go with the PC.

http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Xeon-W3680-vs-Intel-Core-i7-8700/m12335vs3940


----------



## sinkd (Nov 1, 2017)

I would get this:

https://ipowerresale.com/browse-mac-pro/

And then do the 12-core and ram upgrade yourself. I just upgraded my 2009 8-core 4,1 to a dual 6-core 3.46 and it is smokin'

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Core-2009-Apple-Mac-Pro-X5690-x2-3-46GHz-XEON-CPUs-5-1-4-1-Upgrade-4-1-5-1/322856038254?hash=item4b2bb82f6e:g:e2YAAOSwawpXwfNI


----------



## khollister (Nov 1, 2017)

I went through all of this last year. I would agree that unless you are a Logic or DP user (DP on Windows has some issues still), the PC/Windows route is a much better bang for the buck. The hardware is cheaper & faster and Studio One, Cubase and Reaper all seem to run more efficiently on Windows. I had a 6 core 2010 3.33 and my 6 core 6850K has significantly more available realtime CPU capacity per core than the MP (Cubase on both as a test). 

The refurb or used trashcans are tempting but you also need to factor in the costs (and clutter) of external TB drive chassis. 

I still use a Macbook Pro for non-music stuff and occasionally miss Logic and MacOS, but I built the 6850K for less than the cost of a used trashcan MP and it outperforms it with no desktop clutter of TB peripherals.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 1, 2017)

I think this Windows / Mac debate is past its freshness date. Formerly, Apple charged far too much for printers and such, and they still charge a lot for their RAM (which many buy elsewhere). But the "bang for the buck" argument to me is specious; if you are going to use the computer for 10 years and you prefer one OS over another, it's 100% worth whatever incremental up-front cost you incur to work even 5% more comfortably /smoothly.

And still no viruses on the Mac.



sinkd said:


> I just upgraded my 2009 8-core 4,1 to a dual 6-core 3.46 and it is smokin



I did the same, only I didn't upgrade it myself. Some clever guy did and it works well.

I use four PCs and just can't fall in love with the Windows environment; been using it for a loooonnnng time, so it's not lack of familiarity. Every time I want to do something with the Mac I can figure it out just by blundering through and I can't do that in Windows.

Mind you, Windows 10 is the best for me in at least ten years, if not forever. I just turn off all the "helpful" background programs and all the junk and it flies. And it [a PC] is relatively inexpensive if you build it yourself.

Macs seem to last forever. We still use a G5 for household tasks, for example and I think that's from -- actually I don't even know when I bought it. Fifteen years ago?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2017)

Noizmakr, that 12-core Mac is a very good deal, especially since it comes with a warranty. I have essentially the same machine (12 x 3.46) and am really happy with it.

See whether you can get it without the spinning drives and use the deduction toward more SSD (either a larger system drive than 256GB or an additional one). The one thing I wouldn't trust used is spinning drives.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2017)

The answer to your question about the 12-core CPU vs. your Mac Mini is that the 12-core has 12 cores! That divides the load, regardless of the raw processing performance. The 12-core will do a better job in our application than your Mac Mini.

You can go to benchmark sites and compare the raw CPU power, but they don't tell you how well a machine is going to run your sessions. Even the "number of reverbs" tests you see online aren't really the best test.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 1, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The one thing I wouldn't trust used is spinning drives



...not that I'd trust any drives without backing them up, of course.


----------



## Symfoniq (Nov 1, 2017)

My 8-core Windows 10 PC is faster than a 12-core Mac Pro, so I'd argue that yes, there is a significant difference in speed.

However, beyond a certain level of performance, other factors might matter more to you than raw speed. If the Mac Pro is fast enough to handle your workload and you prefer macOS over Windows, then why not stick with the Mac?

I didn't go with a PC this time because it was the fastest option, but rather because it was a better value to _me_, and I rather like Windows 10. Some people don't, and if that's the case, you should probably just buy the fastest Mac and not look back.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 1, 2017)

khollister said:


> I went through all of this last year. I would agree that unless you are a Logic or DP user (DP on Windows has some issues still), the PC/Windows route is a much better bang for the buck. The hardware is cheaper & faster and Studio One, Cubase and Reaper all seem to run more efficiently on Windows. I had a 6 core 2010 3.33 and my 6 core 6850K has significantly more available realtime CPU capacity per core than the MP (Cubase on both as a test).
> 
> The refurb or used trashcans are tempting but you also need to factor in the costs (and clutter) of external TB drive chassis.
> 
> I still use a Macbook Pro for non-music stuff and occasionally miss Logic and MacOS, but I built the 6850K for less than the cost of a used trashcan MP and it outperforms it with no desktop clutter of TB peripherals.


How often did you notice your pc crashing as opposed to your mac (if at all). The whole "pc's crash more" thing floating around is one of the things that make me hesitant


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 1, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I think this Windows / Mac debate is past its freshness date. Formerly, Apple charged far too much for printers and such, and they still charge a lot for their RAM (which many buy elsewhere). But the "bang for the buck" argument to me is specious; if you are going to use the computer for 10 years and you prefer one OS over another, it's 100% worth whatever incremental up-front cost you incur to work even 5% more comfortably /smoothly.
> 
> And still no viruses on the Mac.
> 
> ...


if the refurbished one is a 2010 model though, and they are expected to last as many as 10 years, would it then not actually have that many years left in it? or does buying used matter less with a mac for whatever reason?


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 1, 2017)

basically i want the lease amount of hassle possible but also don't want to pay exorbitant prices. if the biggest hassle is just putting the pc together i'm totally cool with that. I have not used a pc since windows 2000 so i'm not sure whether "pc's crash more" is a myth at this point


----------



## khollister (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> How often did you notice your pc crashing as opposed to your mac (if at all). The whole "pc's crash more" thing floating around is one of the things that make me hesitant



I can’t remember having to reboot either my DAW or VEP slave machine since building them.


----------



## MarcelM (Nov 2, 2017)

sold my mac pro and build a ryzen hackintosh. too bad i didnt pick the threadripper already (thought it didnt work), but even my ryzen build smokes any mac pro in benchmarks.

the performance you get for the $ isnt good from apple. but the other thing is. a mac pro just works, and with a custom build you have to tweak more and invest a little time to get it running smooth.


----------



## synthnut1 (Nov 2, 2017)

Coming from using Macs from early on, I don't know that much about PCs......That being said, my buddy built a PC with me a while back that is still running just fine with Windows 7 Pro....I wish that there was a good book that explained the inner workings of a PC in detail....I haven't even gone as far as overclocking....This machine has been as dependable as any of my Macs, faster, and much cheaper.....


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> basically i want the lease amount of hassle possible but also don't want to pay exorbitant prices. if the biggest hassle is just putting the pc together i'm totally cool with that. I have not used a pc since windows 2000 so i'm not sure whether "pc's crash more" is a myth at this point



I you want the least amount of hassle, I personally wouldn't spend a dime on an computer that's nearly eight years old, regardless of what it is (but that's just me)....I just don't get that philosophy. The days of the "blue screen of death" on a modern PC are virtually gone. I agree there are more tweaks needed on a PC, but they are reliable and if you don't need Logic Pro it's a good choice. But if you're hell bent on Mac (which I've grown to love), spend the extra dough and get a new one (or newer), like a nice iMac. To me, peace of mind and reliability are worth the money...especially when you can't afford any downtime.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

Heroix said:


> sold my mac pro and build a ryzen hackintosh. too bad i didnt pick the threadripper already (thought it didnt work), but even my ryzen build smokes any mac pro in benchmarks.
> 
> the performance you get for the $ isnt good from apple. but the other thing is. a mac pro just works, and with a custom build you have to tweak more and invest a little time to get it running smooth.



What kind of tweaking are you referring to, and how often does it need to be done?


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> What kind of tweaking are you referring to, and how often does it need to be done?


And is this tweaking you're referring to needed mainly because you went the hackintosh route?


----------



## MarcelM (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> And is this tweaking you're referring to needed mainly because you went the hackintosh route?



yes. building a skylake hackintosh was pretty easy compared to the ryzon one. not recommended for beginners.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

Heroix said:


> yes. building a skylake hackintosh was pretty easy compared to the ryzon one. not recommended for beginners.


Ok so if youre just going with windows for slave use tweaking isn't needed after it's built?


----------



## MarcelM (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> Ok so if youre just going with windows for slave use tweaking isn't needed after it's built?


no, not much except for changing power plan and maybe disable some services etc. but this is fairly easy.

there are postings here on vi and on many DAWs developers sites how to tweak windows for best audio performance.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

Heroix said:


> no, not much except for changing power plan and maybe disable some services etc. but this is fairly easy.
> 
> there are postings here on vi and on many DAWs developers sites how to tweak windows for best audio performance.


Thanks can that be done without messing with bios? I'd be hesitant to touch that as someone with minimal computer tweaking experience


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

https://www.steinberg.net/en/suppor...ails/kb_show/optimizing-windows-for-daws.html

^ does this pretty much sum it up?


----------



## khollister (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> Thanks can that be done without messing with bios? I'd be hesitant to touch that as someone with minimal computer tweaking experience



The tweaking being referred to is configuration that needs to be done once (unless you change your mind on something). Some of it is performance related, some is UI look & feel related. Bios configuration will likely need to be done at build time and you may need to change a few things there if you want to disable some power saving features depending on your motherboard. It's not rocket science and you only need to figure it out once.

A used/refurb 6.1 MP (trashcan) is still a nice machine, but recognize that a 8 core is not much more powerful (CPU) than a 4 core i7-7700K (new iMac or lowest risk hackintosh). A new i7-8700K would likely be faster than even a 12 core 6.1 MP. Not that you can't get a ton of work done on a current MP, but you will pay a large premium for it. Of course if you are married to Logic and/or MacOS, then there is nothing wrong going that route. It certainly is more of an appliance than a DIY PC and Windows10.

I also think we sometimes tend to minimize the complexity of building a PC and getting everything running optimally for those with zero PC hardware and/or Windows experience. It can certainly be done by newbies, but you need to enter into this realizing there is going to be a learning curve.


----------



## MarcelM (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> Thanks can that be done without messing with bios? I'd be hesitant to touch that as someone with minimal computer tweaking experience



you dont need to tweak bios, but some things would be recommended to be turned off. speedstepping for example and all other not needed devices like onboard audio. but those things are really easy. dont be afraid of it!

yes, the steinberg article describes the most important things.

every small hardware shop will build the machine with the parts you choose. no need to go for a very expensive "daw builder company". they dont do any magic.


----------



## khollister (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> https://www.steinberg.net/en/suppor...ails/kb_show/optimizing-windows-for-daws.html
> 
> ^ does this pretty much sum it up?



Yup - pretty much


----------



## JohnG (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> Ok so if youre just going with windows for slave use tweaking isn't needed after it's built?



Well...not exactly. 

If you never ever ever hook your PC to the internet once it's set up, you shouldn't have to tweak it again. But unless you go into "Services," and disable Windows Update, it will stealthily update every time you connect your ethernet cable to download anything.

Of course, you can do that -- disable Windows Update -- but then once in a while you may feel you need to update anyway, to be sure everything's compatible with everything else. In that case you have to remember afterwards to turn the Windows Update service back off.

You can see where this is going -- the problem with Windows is that you do have to keep track of a few things, and the information on how to do so is scattered. Not only that, but the specific mechanics change periodically, since the geniuses at Microsoft keep moving stuff around, so you have to keep using internet searches to be sure you have the latest tweaks; maybe less now that Windows 10 has been out for a while? 

Also, although I have done it, the BIOS menu, where some of the key changes to a PC take place, is different for every motherboard manufacturer. On top of that, in many cases, although the GUI has sometimes been updated with "cool pictures" there are limited / feeble contextual menus, bewildering jargon, and (sometimes) different MOBO manufacturers use different expressions to mean the same thing, or put things in unexpected menus. Honestly, the BIOS adventure is not one that I find entertaining or fun.

With Mac you don't really do those things. With Mac OS, I wait until the coast is clear, until others confirm that the new OS is working with the programs I use, and then update, sometimes a year or more after a release.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 2, 2017)

Heroix said:


> the performance you get for the $ isnt good from apple



Agreed (at least with their current machines), but this isn't from Apple anymore, it's an upgraded used machine!



Wolfie2112 said:


> I you want the least amount of hassle, I personally wouldn't spend a dime on an computer that's nearly eight years old, regardless of what it is (but that's just me)....I just don't get that philosophy.



First, it comes with a warranty.

Second, the computer is old, but it's been upgraded to more recent processors and 64GB. For me the choice wasn't philosophical, it was that this was the only Mac model that made economic sense.

The 12-core is an extremely stable machine. It's unlikely to cause problems, and if it does you can find a replacement processor tray and just slide it in. I don't know if peeps here know about the Nehalem Mac Pro, but it's really well designed.

This is just an image from the internet, showing the tray halfway out. Look at those heatsinks. Also, those four drive caddies at the top are brill, and dig the hand screws for the PCIe cards.







Computer years are now six or seven man-years, so that 8-year-old computer is barely middle-aged - still at the top of its game.

Trust me, I know.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Agreed (at least with their current machines), but this isn't from Apple anymore, it's an upgraded used machine!
> 
> 
> First, it comes with a warranty.
> ...


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

I see the 1x6 core 3.2ghz or so for not too much money. Is that sufficient as well? Would either of these be faster than the 2012 i7 Mac mini (I have that one now) Or would only the 12 core be faster?


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Well...not exactly.
> 
> If you never ever ever hook your PC to the internet once it's set up, you shouldn't have to tweak it again. But unless you go into "Services," and disable Windows Update, it will stealthily update every time you connect your ethernet cable to download anything.
> 
> ...


Which automatically updates? Windows as a whole or the individual parts?


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

is windows updating tedious mainly because you then have to update every component of the computer one at a time to work with it?


----------



## sinkd (Nov 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Look at those heatsinks.


Ooh, baby. Mmmm-mmmm. Yeah. That is what I am TALKIN' about. You could see those coming from around the corner and still have time to comb your hair.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

If windows updating makes the computer slow almost every time then what is the point of ever doing it? And if it slows things down unless you tweak 20 different things, then why would Microsoft set their system to auto update by default? Seems like a pretty big flaw.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Agreed (at least with their current machines), but this isn't from Apple anymore, it's an upgraded used machine!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Nick Batzdorf said:


> Agreed (at least with their current machines), but this isn't from Apple anymore, it's an upgraded used machine!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Where did you get this with a warranty?


----------



## sinkd (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> If windows updating makes the computer slow almost every time then what is the point of ever doing it? And if it slows things down unless you tweak 20 different things, then why would Microsoft set their system to auto update by default? Seems like a pretty big flaw.


I would say that with Windows 7 the updates did not slow things down, as far as I can tell. I was running a clean slave system with minimal, necessary software installs. Ran fine for about 5 years with one re-image necessary a couple of years ago. This is an i7 quad (32G RAM0 that I may update to W10 to run East West libs on.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 2, 2017)

sorry by that did you mean it worked for 5 years total, or it worked for 5 years until you had to do a re-install?


----------



## sinkd (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> sorry by that did you mean it worked for 5 years total, or it worked for 5 years until you had to do a re-install?


5 years before any serious maintenance/re-image. It is about 7 years old now and still very usable.


----------



## sinkd (Nov 2, 2017)

What I am saying is that a Windows machine that is deployed for a single purpose like that can run fine for a long time with just standard updates every once in a while. Low maintenance.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 2, 2017)

Hi Noiz -- your questions suggest that you are very new to all this. If I were your dad, I would buy you a Mac. PCs are great for those who:

1. Kind of like computers and have spent a lot of time with them;

2. Don't mind going to Youtube or an internet search to find out how to do things;

3. See building and tweaking the computer as a mildly entertaining diversion / hobby that is an adjunct to composing.

By contrast, you seem to know actually nothing about Windows, and so for that reason, I would go with a Mac. Why go through the brain damage? Macs 'just work,' in my experience, and they are designed for people who don't like computers but see them as a tool to do something else, not an end in themselves.


----------



## sinkd (Nov 2, 2017)

In any case, you have a great community of folks here who have a wide variety of experience with both platforms and are glad to help when we can. I paid some gamer students to build two PC slaves for me back in like 2006... or something like that. They ran EWSO Platinum and then Platinum Plus. I remember a two-day internet voyage where I researched how to bypass the 2G application RAM limit in Windows XP (doubling it to 4G--I think? do I have that right?) so that I could increase the footprint of my template. Got the answer from someone in Australia, I think. What a time to be alive.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 2, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The 12-core is an extremely stable machine. It's unlikely to cause problems, and if it does you can find a replacement processor tray and just slide it in. I don't know if peeps here know about the Nehalem Mac Pro, but it's really well designed.
> 
> This is just an image from the internet, showing the tray halfway out. Look at those heatsinks. Also, those four drive caddies at the top are brill, and dig the hand screws for the PCIe cards.
> 
> ...



I always liked the look and simplicity of those Mac Pro's, I really wish Apple would make a similar unit that we users can upgrade. Fingers crossed!


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 2, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> Where did you get this with a warranty?



I didn't get one, but the one in your link has it!

You ask about the 6-core, and I don't know. But they sell for quite a bit less, and there's probably a reason.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 2, 2017)

sinkd said:


> What I am saying is that a Windows machine that is deployed for a single purpose like that can run fine for a long time with just standard updates every once in a while. Low maintenance.



I also have a quad-core i7 slave from about 2009 that I got from a forum member here. He used it all the time, and I've had it for a few months.

It's pretty nice, built by VisionDAW, and I haven't updated anything other than VE Pro 5 -> 6. I just leave Windows 7 alone and access the machine from my Mac over the network using Microsoft Remote Desktop.

But I wouldn't want it as my main computer.


----------



## jhazan (Nov 7, 2017)

This is always a great topic and I suspect it will live as long as there are computer and systems to compare. It SHOULD because they way free markets work is that we will select a product that makes fiscal and does the job we need. Being that Apple has seemingly left the professional musician stranded with poorly updated products, they have made their intention clear - retail iPhone customers are a priority, not the pro community. Being that the Garbage wasn't updated for quite some time is proof - their actions speak louder than words. Follow the behavior. With that said, I am taking steps to learn Cubase as a lifelong Logic user -and a long time mac user. I have purchased hundreds of them for myself and staffers over the years. Let me make this decision easier: If you compare the business of financial investments to the purchase of a mac- it goes something like this: If a fund expense ratio is 1.5% (popular Fund manager) and a different fund with the same holdings (more or less) charges a low expense ratio (vanguard), it is more intelligent over the years to stick to a low-cost alternative. If you are a good composer, learn the new software that makes sense - it might help you improve skills that are dormant. Over the course of your life, that 1.5% will add up to a f- ton of money, and unless you are making it big right now, that savings could pay for your later in life expenses. When you consider putting thousands of dollars aside that could have been paid for a mac, every purchase would yield about 2k and adding interest to that, assuming you buy a computer every 5 years, that's a ton of cash...with compound interest, go figure it out. I would speculate that the amount of money paid to Apple in a premium for their proprietary machines could add up to tens of thousands of dollars. That said, I am in the process os changing machines to a PC. I purchased on from Micro Center, and it sadly died and it was returned, but I'm ready to try to make the switch again.... Today, there is no choice in the Mac world -the speed, money, and ROI are unbeatable if you get a PC. Hopefully, this will change over time when new hardware is launched, but Apple must start to fast-track their production and there is no sign of that. I get the sense we are abandoned as a professional community, and sadly, we need to change platforms so we are not held hostage. I regrettably have posted this opinion, since I am an apple user from 7 years old. with the purchase of an apple two Plus!


----------



## Rohann (Nov 9, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> How often did you notice your pc crashing as opposed to your mac (if at all). The whole "pc's crash more" thing floating around is one of the things that make me hesitant


The PC crashing thing is also old news. If you compare a $2500 mac to a $2500 PC, you won't be having crashing issues (heck, compare it to a $1500 PC). Crashing is largely due to stupid downloading (pirating), bloatware on prefab PC's (think Best Buy), etc.

John has the right idea -- pick the software and OS you want, and go from there. I'm quite comfortable on Windows and know how to tinker, so Mac has never really had any appeal for me (aside from Logic, but then I found Studio One).

What jhazan said seems to ring true with a lot of folks lately. There are some die-hard Apple users that are fed up with the company. Doesn't mean it should dissuade you, but just make sure you're informed about the shortcomings of both sides.

And IMO, stick with Intel unless Ryzen builds have been tried out by audio professionals for a while. There's nothing worse than spending your composing time troubleshooting.

Re: Tweaking. Haven't had to do really any of that on my PC so far other than software updates and the like. Find a build of Windows that works (i.e. 8.1), turn off auto-update (make sure it lets you pick when to update, and always create a system restore point before doing so), and you're off. I intentionally picked 8.1 because of its history as stable. No more weird GUI updates and the like, just security updates here and there.

That said, I'm quite familiar with PC's, and I don't mind building them either. I don't like troubleshooting or tweaking, but so far I haven't really had to do any (other than deal with EastWest software hiccups, but PLAY is more stable on Windows anyway from what I gather). If it's unfamiliar and daunting, a Mac might be a better route -- just be careful of falling into the trap of thinking Windows crashes frequently, or that Macs are always problem-free.


----------



## Noizmak3r (Nov 9, 2017)

Rohann said:


> The PC crashing thing is also old news. If you compare a $2500 mac to a $2500 PC, you won't be having crashing issues (heck, compare it to a $1500 PC). Crashing is largely due to stupid downloading (pirating), bloatware on prefab PC's (think Best Buy), etc.
> 
> John has the right idea -- pick the software and OS you want, and go from there. I'm quite comfortable on Windows and know how to tinker, so Mac has never really had any appeal for me (aside from Logic, but then I found Studio One).
> 
> ...



Makes sense thanks in my experience I stay away from mac updating whenever I can anyway because it usually causes me problems so I can't imagine how much of a difference there would be. Seems like updating is just a pain in the ass no matter what


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 9, 2017)

Rohann said:


> There are some die-hard Apple users that are fed up with the company. Doesn't mean it should dissuade you, but just make sure you're informed about the shortcomings of both sides.



There are others like me who have issues with the company, specifically their current Mac line-up and also their CEO Tim Cook's selectively amoral political activities. But I'm not about to switch to using Windows for working on, I just have Windows machines as slaves.


----------



## synthnut1 (Nov 11, 2017)

I'm not sure what things are like past W7 pro, but being a Mac user since the Mac Plus days, I've been thrilled with W7 pro machine that is off line unless doing updates and downloading programs ..... More to work with,faster,cheaper, and much easier to tweak...


----------



## Rohann (Nov 11, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> Makes sense thanks in my experience I stay away from mac updating whenever I can anyway because it usually causes me problems so I can't imagine how much of a difference there would be. Seems like updating is just a pain in the ass no matter what


Yeah updating is a pain no matter what the platform, whether iOS on phones, macs, Windows updates, Android, etc. Although from the sidelines (not being an Apple user), it seems like software doesn't become non-functional on old versions very often (on Windows). Running 8.1 with no issues and Microsoft is still providing bug fixes and security updates.


----------



## JohnG (Nov 12, 2017)

Noizmak3r said:


> Thanks can that be done without messing with bios?



You absolutely should make changes to the BIOS. Every set of recommendations for audio PCs I've seen -- Steinberg, for example -- urges changes to the BIOS.

Link to Steinberg's suggested tweaks: https://www.steinberg.net/en/suppor...ails/kb_show/optimizing-windows-for-daws.html

That's why I suggest a Mac if you don't affirmatively enjoy tinkering with computers.


----------



## synthnut1 (Nov 14, 2017)

JohnG,
I would agree with you on the point you made about not wanting to tinker with computers,however I would feel like a little rich kid with a 57 Les Paul and a Dumble amp and not knowing how to play a lick if I did not try to get the most out of my computer......I don't know a lot about it yet,but I'm interested and trying hard to learn more....A computer to me is a tool,just like my instruments, and the more I learn what makes it tick and how to use it,the better off I am....


----------

