# Kontakt 13 Ultimate CE a no-brainer?



## Thlian (Jul 3, 2022)

I don't have any of the latter, free kontakt player thats all. So I'm still in the prosess of learning how everything are being used, I play around, trying to figure them vst's out.

Since CE edition now are at sale for €999. Is it a no brainer? I won't afford as much as a small glockenspiel after that investment. Browsing through sites I suddenly find Tina Guo's sampled cello and her unique and experimental playing. But I can't buy every library I come across either. That would be insanely expensive. 

CE has the full session strings pro, the brass, the woodwinds, the string ensembles. Mysteria, Lores and not to forget Stradivari violin and chello. But still, would this string sample libraries stand up against Spitfires Abby Road strings professional? Which cost exactly the same a mount?....and CE give me 76(!) instruments and various plugins and synths. What would you do? To good to be true? You get all this for a 1000 euro and at other sites you might be left with one awsome synth and a reasonable string section?


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## Bluemount Score (Jul 3, 2022)

For me, personally, yes. At this price a no-brainer. You will never ever find use for everything, but I do use various parts of Komplete, therefore effects, synths and libraries on an almost daily basis and don't wanna miss them.
Regarding orchestral samples, it still isn't nearly as good or, well, complete to fulfill my needs though. It's a diverse fundament regarding many other things. For me - $999 are absolutely worth it, without second thought. If you have a rather limited budget and know you want to focus on orchestral - there may be better options.


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## AceAudioHQ (Jul 3, 2022)

For me CE has mostly useless stuff (cremona quartet and expansions) compared to Ultimate, also upgrading CE is probably more expensive than upgrading Ultimate. Session Strings 2 Pro is also on Ultimate, as is the stadivari


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## QuiteAlright (Jul 3, 2022)

In my opinion it's a no-brainer, but it totally depends on what type of music you're going to make.

Komplete CE has a wonderful variety of different instruments for every category, but there's not much that it's the best at. For instance, you could certainly buy better strings elsewhere. Ditto woodwinds, brass, etc. 

I think it's a very good value for what it is though. You can also buy a license transfer and then upgrade from that to stretch your money further. For instance, buy Komplete 13 standard used, and then upgrade to Ultimate Collector's Edition.


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## Rudianos (Jul 3, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I don't have any of the latter, free kontakt player thats all. So I'm still in the prosess of learning how everything are being used, I play around, trying to figure them vst's out.


It is a no brainer Cremona - all the Synths ... Arkhis ... Guitars ... World instruments ... Symphony Series is actually quite good. Plugs into NI system for Full Kontakt.


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## Technostica (Jul 3, 2022)

If you are starting out and get a good deal then I think CE is worth the extra for the orchestral stuff. 
But if you plan on spending a lot more down the line, you may outgrow that orchestral stuff, so be better off buying Ultimate and putting the money saved towards better libraries in the future. 
Close call.


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## Jrides (Jul 3, 2022)

if you’re starting from scratch and have nothing, and can find use for the guitar, drums and at least one of the synthesizers… You are getting a lot for the money.

it’s worth repeating though… If you can find a used copy of anything even Select.…. You are going to say some money.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 3, 2022)

I haven't looked at the sale. Are upgrades on sale? Do you have Kontakt? If not, do you have a Kontakt player library? You definitely want Kontakt. Komplete may or may not be useful to you depending upon what you want to do with it. It has a lot of stuff in it okay and some that is really useful. And you can make music using all of it. 

So, a few things. They have this sale every year. Though the versions will change. The Symphony Series is only okay because it is all recorded in different places. if you want a good orchestra, get EW's OPUS at 60% off plus additional discounts at a bunch of resellers and Kontakt. I like the Cremona Quartet, but I'm not sure they are the best to get. 

To get Kontakt, get Embertone's Arcane for free. It is a Player library and should make you eligible to crossgrade to full Kontakt. https://www.embertone.com/instruments/arcane.php
And while you are there you might want to check out some of there other stuff. They are a great company.

Then upgrade to whatever Komplete you think will work for you. I'd go with Ultimate if you do orchestral/game/trailer music.


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## Technostica (Jul 3, 2022)

Select is currently half price direct from NI and the upgrades are still on sale below half price with UK retailers.
So it's cheaper to go that route as the full versions are discounted much less. 
CE is as little as £620 in the UK which is £150 more than Ultimate.


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## Jrides (Jul 3, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> I haven't looked at the sale. Are upgrades on sale? Do you have Kontakt? If not, do you have a Kontakt player library? You definitely want Kontakt. Komplete may or may not be useful to you depending upon what you want to do with it. It has a lot of stuff in it okay and some that is really useful. And you can make music using all of it.
> 
> So, a few things. They have this sale every year. Though the versions will change. The Symphony Series is only okay because it is all recorded in different places. if you want a good orchestra, get EW's OPUS at 60% off plus additional discounts at a bunch of resellers and Kontakt. I like the Cremona Quartet, but I'm not sure they are the best to get.
> 
> ...


This is a very good point… If you’re mainly interested in orchestral music. EW Hollywood opus is a much better value. I have seen it on sale for under $320. The money you save… you could get whatever you think you still need.

If you’re doing more than orchestral music though, it might be hard to beat all the stuff you get with the native instruments package.


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## Thlian (Jul 4, 2022)

I want more than the orchestral, but I hard a demo of the violin stradivari and I instans fell in love with the sound. I have Komplete Now on subscription, but that's mostly to get my hands on MassiveX, which is a quite large and comprehensive peace of synth 🧐
And Raum, what a lovely reverb plugin. 

For the time being I have HZ percussion and Albion One. So only kontakt player for me and not Komplete kontrol. I absolutely love the Cog patches on Albion One and would like to have more from them, but at what cost? 
Is there anything that matches Spitfire in terms of sound and articulations, and cheaper at the same time? 
I see that Ultimate and CE has actually to much, more than I'll ever need. I am going towards the more cinematic sounds and not billboard music. 

So a comprehensive orchestral library and maybe some standalone solo violin and chello. I would like to try Omnisphere, worth it? And something that has an insane amount of presets to play around with (I could specify this more, but no). A very useful sampler that can do Almost every thing.

You could point me out in a certain direction from your experiences and I will check the out.
- orchestral, many articulations. Crecsendos as one of the
- standalone string instruments
- synths
- a piano, a beautiful sounding one
- percussion, though I have my eye on Charlie Clousers Hammer
- plugins that are a must, I am on a trial periode with plugins from wave. But holy sh**, thats just too much.
- other stuff thats sounds awsome and out of this world, but big and bold. I love drums and bass, not the EDM kind though.

For the moment I also have Sonicpass from UVI so I have more or less evrything in that department. But I wanna ditch Sonicpass and Komplete Now for a less but better tools. Though Woosh and walker are fun to play around with.

This answer got a bit longer than I had in mind. Also, is it worth getting a hardware tool that integrates perfect with kontrol? Because M-Audio Hammer does not 😖


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 4, 2022)

I have the Collector's Edition. So here are a few of my reflections. I had thought that it would be a great way to have all of the basics covered in one go. But... while I use the orchestral stuff, it really doesn't sound great to me. It's a pity; but I, and many others it seems, find it thin, lifeless and colourless compared to other good core libraries.

I'm not an orchestral composer; but I am orchestral-curious, and the orchestral libraries in the Collector's Edition have somewhat muted my interest for the time being. It's something I'll explore more when I have something I like the sound of better. I do still dip into the Symphonic Series, though, to supplement other libraries when I'm missing something.

I can't regret buying it, though. I made my way up to it through license transfers and upgrades; and there are still many things - effects, synths, specialist libraries like Pharlight and Mysteria (lots of people love Arkhis), that are wonderful to have. I still use the string quartet too; it divides people - most people who I've read expressing a preference don't like the sound; I do like the sound but I don't like some of the scripting choices, by which I mean I don't like how it plays.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 4, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I want more than the orchestral, but I hard a demo of the violin stradivari and I instans fell in love with the sound. I have Komplete Now on subscription, but that's mostly to get my hands on MassiveX, which is a quite large and comprehensive peace of synth 🧐
> And Raum, what a lovely reverb plugin.
> 
> For the time being I have HZ percussion and Albion One. So only kontakt player for me and not Komplete kontrol. I absolutely love the Cog patches on Albion One and would like to have more from them, but at what cost?
> ...


Hammers sounds as it sounds in the demos - if you like it, you'll have that sound at your fingertips. It is quite limited in range; but is definitely a library you can rely on to deliver in its style.

For a synth to use with acoustic instruments, I recommend Zebra2 very highly (with or without the Dark Zebra combination of soundset and upgrade). It blends with and enhances orchestral pieces incredibly well without extra processing. Omnisphere can too; but I often need to soften its edges with gentle saturation (the same goes for Falcon, my personal favourite synth for my own sound design).

Just my take, of course!


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 4, 2022)

I'm back again! I forgot to comment on plugins. I personally have found Plugin Alliance to be a great sources of inexpensive (due to all their sales), very high quality plugins. They have been my main source for plugins while learning mixing and mastering. But there can be advantages to having plugins that aren't focused on recreating the experience of hardware, and so which have a user interface that is more suited to using a mouse. I like UVI's Shade a lot, and I also use several of the Sonnox Oxford plugins. I did a trial of Sonnox's Claro EQ (currently half price) and found it to be better in some ways to Shade for mixing, as you can compare across tracks easily.

But, really, I would have been happy to do my initial learning using the stock plugins in my DAW and the Native Instrument ones. I still use both. I find the Native Instruments plugins generally better suited to mixing than mastering, and to 'popular' music rather than orchestral. For example, they have great but not realistic sounding reverb and echos/delay, so better as creative effects than for spatial placement.

I'm a big fan of Softube and PSP, IK Multimedia for tape emulations, U-he's Presswork compressor and lots of others. I don't have any of the Fabfilter plugins.


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## el-bo (Jul 4, 2022)

I just bought UCE, in the latest sale. I've yet to install it, so take my opinion with a grain of salt (Lo-Salt, if you're hypertensive).

For my situation/needs, I reckon it's a no-brainer. 

I already owned Komplete 12, which already makes the upgrade more manageable. But more than that, I reckon I have between $150 and $200 worth of NI dribs 'n' drabs to sell off. Combined with some other software to sell, the upgrade to 'Ultimate' kinda paid for itself. That left me having to decide whether there was enough in the step up to CE to justify the extra $200, out-of-pocket expense. 

For me, the answer was a resounding "Yes!" 

I really wanted a quartet, and Cremona sounds great to my ears. I also really wanted an orchestral textures library, and Arkhis naturally fills that gap. That already justifies the extra $200, for me. 

But then I also get 'Symphony Series'. I know there's not a lot of love for this library, and i can understand why many people don't like it. But for my needs (I'm no orchestral composer), it sounds better than anything I could get hold of, for the price (Free, essentially). Besides, I've heard fantastic sounding demos using this library (Unfortunately @Ivan M. seems to have deleted his SS content). Even if I hated the 'whole', the percussion comes pretty highly-rated. The strings, with Cory P's adjustments, are also gonna be worth having. 

Also very interested in the various expansions. From the demos, it seems there's tons of very good content to be had.

Definitely curious to see the yearly upgrade options and how NI delineates between Ultimate and CE. I suspect that this time around, K14UCE will at least end up with 'Lores', over 'Ultimate'. And that's something that I'd definitely want to receive next Summer (or the Summer after).


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## Marko Cifer (Jul 4, 2022)

As others have pointed out, the bundle is a bit of a mixed bag (and which parts are more valuable to someone is up to the individual), but it's still a pretty damn good value. To me, it was absolutely worth upgrading to eventually.

It's also true that a lot of instruments in the bundle is stuff where you run the risk of outgrowing out of eventually, or feeling the need to upgrade them to something else. However, I'm finding it that for layering purposes, I've actually started to come back to some of the stuff (mostly the orchestral offerings in the bundle) that I thought didn't suit my needs and tastes... and just a controlled, reserved amount on top of some other stuff can have an enhancing effect, so there's some value that's retained there.



el-bo said:


> But then I also get 'Symphony Series'. I know there's not a lot of love for this library, and i can understand why many people don't like it. But for my needs (I'm no orchestral composer), it sounds better than anything I could get hold of, for the price (Free, essentially).


One thing I'd add to this with the Symphony Series: at least to me, the Symphony Essentials found in the Ultimate tier are close to useless and before I upgraded to CE I just did not use those libraries, while the Symphony Series - while very divisive among users - lets you dial-in its sound due to the mic positions now being available, while Essentials you only have the mix to work with. And I'm finding myself layering the stuff from that series into my other patches/multis a lot more lately (especially the Divisi strings), even if the exposed patches themselves aren't what I'm looking for.

Same with the Cremona Quartett - I usually don't use them exposed too much, but instead they're layered in with other stuff to taste to add some bite, especially to string shorts - again, with the patches where you can do your own mixing. If anyone has the CQ and doesn't like its sound and hasn't tried them as a layering tool, I do invite them to try. Even just a tiny bit mixed in can add some interest, irregularity and variation in the right circumstances.

There's also this thread that might help you: *Native Instruments....What do you actually use?*
Just go through it and see what people think about the CE inclusions, and how often they show up with CE owners.


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## Thlian (Jul 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I'm back again! I forgot to comment on plugins. I personally have found Plugin Alliance to be a great sources of inexpensive (due to all their sales), very high quality plugins. They have been my main source for plugins while learning mixing and mastering. But there can be advantages to having plugins that aren't focused on recreating the experience of hardware, and so which have a user interface that is more suited to using a mouse. I like UVI's Shade a lot, and I also use several of the Sonnox Oxford plugins. I did a trial of Sonnox's Claro EQ (currently half price) and found it to be better in some ways to Shade for mixing, as you can compare across tracks easily.
> 
> But, really, I would have been happy to do my initial learning using the stock plugins in my DAW and the Native Instrument ones. I still use both. I find the Native Instruments plugins generally better suited to mixing than mastering, and to 'popular' music rather than orchestral. For example, they have great but not realistic sounding reverb and echos/delay, so better as creative effects than for spatial placement.
> 
> I'm a big fan of Softube and PSP, IK Multimedia for tape emulations, U-he's Presswork compressor and lots of others. I don't have any of the Fabfilter plugins.


I actually agree with you on the stock DAW plugins. Studio One packs with quite a lot. Though I tried out Izotope neutron, nectar and ozone, with neutron 4 to be the most helpful one with a newbie like me. I have to learn mixing property before mastering in addition to evrything else.

I have listened around, perhaps it's just me. But I kind of fall back to Air Studios and Spitfire. Though EW sounds huge and has a lot to it, the demos sound very.....John Williams 🤔 Too symphonic if you know what I men. Spitfire has that sharp and airy sound that sticks a bit out. Even there are great sounding orchestras from Berlin, Vienna, LA and so on. But that's just my cup of tea. 

Maybe I just stick with UVI and Falcon for now. I haven't made myself record anything yet, I'm exploring, and for some reason of all the libraries I've played through, it still feels like there are something missing. Don't know why.....


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## Greeno (Jul 4, 2022)

It is excellent value and covers so many bases.
The Symphony series is ok I think, it does cover many articulations with Sections, Ensembles and has solos so it is especially worthwhile for when starting out but I think they are useful beyond that . However you mentioned that you have Albion One and HZ Perc, these are better quality products. The sound quality of Albion and selection of articulations covers all the of the basics even if Albion only has Strings etc splity into High Mid and Low. I fyou want more detail at that quality e.g String sections then you would need to buy Spitfire Symphonic Strings (possibly too expensive), Spitfire studio strings (smaller band size) or BBC SO Core - which is a very good all round package and good price in the sale with sections, perc and solos but it is on the Spitfire player and limited to one mic position and has its particular hall sound.... or a library from another developer so something like Cinematic Studio Series, Cinestrings ( on sale now), AI -Areia, Nucleus or Jaeger. Orchestral Tools - Berlin or Metropolis Ark( quite expensive).

Arkhis, Creomona Quartet, Pharlight, Starylight, Thrill, Mysteria, The Play Series, Mallet Flux, Action Strings, Action Hits, Emotive Strings, Abbey Rd drums collection, Guitar collection, Keys collection , World Series and the rest of the synths, Symphony series and Kontakt are most definately worth it for the price...it would cost you way way more for all of that bought separately.


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## Jrides (Jul 4, 2022)

The native instruments stuff does not sound like Spitfire. I am not a big fan of the Spitfire sound, so that works for me. I don’t know if there is a library that sounds like Spitfire but it’s cheaper. However, it sounds like that’s what you’re really looking for. You might have to wait until Black Friday or some other major sale and hold out for the library you want.

to be honest though… It sounds like you are in a place where you don’t really know what you want. I would suggest not to buy anything and to continue to try to get the most out of the tools that you have. Maybe as time passes you will figure out what you are missing and catch the appropriate spitfire product that fills the need at a DEEP discount.


I plan on getting Tokyo scoring strings whenever it goes on 50% sale. That might be next year or the year after. I will use what I have until then… I can wait lol.


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## Tim_Wells (Jul 4, 2022)

I have never regretted buying Komplete or the CE version, which I now own. There are so many useful tools.

Now, if you're purely an orchestra person, there may be better options. But if you're an all-arounder (pop, etc.), it's a fantastic value.


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## Thlian (Jul 4, 2022)

Nope, not pure orchestral. I like to dive into synths that at least make som sense 😉 Would be nice having a good synth I could through samples in to tweak and tune. Oriental instruments are also on my wish list. They are right there in Falcon. But I think it lacks color and dynamic. The adjustments on front page are limited, but driving in behind is waaay to advanced for me.

So yes I might just stick with what I have before I invest heavy money. Maybe I buy a maschine. Silly one patch in HZ percussion are made solely for Maschine


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## Jrides (Jul 4, 2022)

You get Maschine software with Komplete Kontrol mk2 keyboards as well.


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## Thlian (Jul 4, 2022)

Jrides said:


> You get Maschine software with Komplete Kontrol mk2 keyboards as well.


Only bad thing is that mine is brand new, and it's not NI. Didn't realize that before later


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## Jrides (Jul 4, 2022)

One thing to consider with spitfire. Some of the libraries only use the Spitfire sample player. Not kontakt. Some people like this. Some people absolutely hate this. if you haven’t tried it, you should before making your decision to see if you can get along with it. I think they use it with the free stuff.


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## DoubleTap (Jul 4, 2022)

I don't see the attraction of the Collector's Edition over K13 Ultimate. Most of the extra stuff is sound packs. The only other things are Arkhis and three strings. The update from 12 to 13 U is £359 and for UCE it's £449, so you're tying yourself into more expensive updates.

Also agree with Bee that the orchestral instruments are unsatisfying. I'm not sure now if I would get anything other than Kontakt if I was starting again, since I have better options for instruments and FX.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 4, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I actually agree with you on the stock DAW plugins. Studio One packs with quite a lot. Though I tried out Izotope neutron, nectar and ozone, with neutron 4 to be the most helpful one with a newbie like me. I have to learn mixing property before mastering in addition to evrything else.
> 
> I have listened around, perhaps it's just me. But I kind of fall back to Air Studios and Spitfire. Though EW sounds huge and has a lot to it, the demos sound very.....John Williams 🤔 Too symphonic if you know what I men. Spitfire has that sharp and airy sound that sticks a bit out. Even there are great sounding orchestras from Berlin, Vienna, LA and so on. But that's just my cup of tea.
> 
> Maybe I just stick with UVI and Falcon for now. I haven't made myself record anything yet, I'm exploring, and for some reason of all the libraries I've played through, it still feels like there are something missing. Don't know why.....


Just so you know, there will always be something missing. Which is why some of us own 20 million libraries. You will never get the perfect sound with one library because they only capture a portion of what a live instrument can do with an expert player. The way some work around it, is buying more libraries. Others learn how to change the sound of their libraries using mic mixes and effects, to make them sound the way they want. You can make OPUS sound better than Air Lyndhurst, if you do the work. It might be worth spending money on something like 7th Heaven. I have SSO/SCO and I do love the sound. but it has its problems too. Just so you know, the bundle price is a permanent sale price. it will likely never get lower but will be around at least until they figure out how to put it into their own player. 

Truthfully, if you are comparing everything to SSO and finding it lacking, get SSO. Don't waste money buying things that won't make you happy. It sounds like you use some NI products. Buy the smallest Komplete you can to get the things you want and save up for SSO. As an FYI, E-Sessions does sell the Cremona Quartet and it goes on sale from time to time. 

You have HZ Perc. That will get you the crossgrade price to full Kontakt. Buy that first. then price out your upgrade/crossgrade options.


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## el-bo (Jul 4, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> I don't see the attraction of the Collector's Edition over K13 Ultimate. Most of the extra stuff is sound packs. The only other things are Arkhis and three strings. The update from 12 to 13 U is £359 and for UCE it's £449, so you're tying yourself into more expensive updates.


While they're obviously not going to be everybody's cup o'tea, calling the expansions "sound packs" might be selling them rather short. There's a lot of well-honed, seemingly well-curated genre-specific content, across those packs. They do indeed come with synth-presets, but also a lot of kits/drums. Anyone working in those genres, or those who want to add elements into other styles, seems very well catered for.

Also, I thought the prices to upgrade within the same tier were less. My upgrade options during the 50% Summer Sale, from K13 Standard, were 299 Euros to step up to Ultimate, but 499 Euros to leap to UCE. From there, and I might be wrong, I could have sworn that the upgrade to the next UCE version was being offered for 250 Euros. Can anybody confirm?


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## Jrides (Jul 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> While they're obviously not going to be everybody's cup o'tea, calling the expansions "sound packs" might be selling them rather short. There's a lot of well-honed, seemingly well-curated genre-specific content, across those packs. They do indeed come with synth-presets, but also a lot of kits/drums. Anyone working in those genres, or those who want to add elements into other styles, seems very well catered for.
> 
> Also, I thought the prices to upgrade within the same tier were less. My upgrade options during the 50% Summer Sale, from K13 Standard, were 299 Euros to step up to Ultimate, but 499 Euros to leap to UCE. From there, and I might be wrong, I could have sworn that the upgrade to the next UCE version was being offered for 250 Euros. Can anybody confirm?


You are correct about everything. I think the person was talking about the normal price. But who buys anything at the normal price?


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## kitekrazy (Jul 4, 2022)

When it comes to a more expensive package and "no brainer" I will say no. This would also depend on what NI products you already have. People will bring up one or two items in it. If you want those instead of the rest of the bloat you can buy those with the 50% off sale.


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## parapentep70 (Jul 4, 2022)

The way I see it... : 

Every time there is a new product announced not included in my latest U-CE version, I add it to an excel spreadsheet. I add "how much would I pay for each without any hesiation at all". A really LOW price.

For example, I bought a Maschine and perhaps some day I will use it. I don't need expansions. I would NOT buy any expansion, not even at 1/10th of the normal price, because I never use them. But, just in case, perhaps I'd pay up to 2€ for each. No more. But at 2... I can buy the new ones just in case.

I don't use much Massive X, but I can see forsee I will eventually. It is not bad to pay for Massive X expansions. Never the full price, never the typical 1/3 of the price I pay on average when other vendors have sales. But 5€ per Massive X expansion is something I'd never resist. 

(I did not go through all of them, then finally...)

Finally Lores looks really good. To pay half the normal list price? Perhaps, not sure. But I am completely sure I would not blink to have it for 40€. 100% sure. Or 25€ for the East Asia instruments. Or 25€ for Action Strings 2. Or 20€ for each of the 2 new guitars (Nylon and Telecaster). Piano Colors? I definitely DON'T need any piano. But for 15€ I'd never resist.

When I add these minimum quantities that I'd pay without hesitation (and being VERY, VERY tight fisted), then the total is less than the upgrade at full price (but very close, and there are perhaps new products still to be launched before K14-U-CE). Today the total of these products at ~1/10th of their price (if interested) or less if not much interested is well above what I expect for the upgrade to K14 next summer. My spreadsheet says 326€ (for ME )And I expect to have it for 250, even cheaper that the numbers I am using!

In fact if I paid zero for the items I am not really interested and zero for product I'll probably use some day, I'd be still paying a bargain price for the few libraries I am really interested. Better value than any other vendor.

So I do not mind at all paying for products that don't suit the way I make music (the extreme case is soundware for Maschine). Here is my spreadsheet for the upcoming K14:


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 4, 2022)

The Naysayer:

Personally, I've only found 2.5 plugins/things from NI useful. I bought the Komplete upgrade from Kontakt awhile back and sold it a year later - and have never regretted it.

I use Kontakt, Replika XT (bought the upgrade and kept it), and sometimes Super 8. I deleted pretty much all of the Kontakt library content that it came with. It comes with even more stuff now. I purchased select 3rd party libraries, instead.

After buying a lot of plugins over the last several years, I came to the conclusion that I dislike huge packs of plugins/sounds because they encourage me to be lazy because there's so much stuff it pushes me to preset surf, and it fills up my drives with a ton of useless (to me) crap I'll never use, or I outright don't like. I'd rather have less and know how to use it well than have everything and not really know how to use any of it. This also ties into my deletion of Diva from my computer, as well as Omnisphere (recently reinstalled after 6 months of being deleted, but am ignoring 98% of the presets - hardware ones only).

I'm an advocate for taking your time, and buying only what you love and what you need rather than throwing a steaming pile of Komplete at the wall and "seeing what sticks".  Again, this is purely 100% my perspective, and not The Truth (tm). But I wanted to provide an alternate perspective than the "no brainer" thread title.

Now, if you've done a demo of everything in Komplete and the vast majority tickles your fancy, that's another story - then it's a genuine, valuable bargain.


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## el-bo (Jul 4, 2022)

parapentep70 said:


> The way I see it... :
> 
> Every time there is a new product announced not included in my latest U-CE version, I add it to an excel spreadsheet. I add "how much would I pay for each without any hesiation at all". A really LOW price.
> 
> ...


You seem to be missing the latest guitar


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## el-bo (Jul 4, 2022)

Jrides said:


> You are correct about everything.


S'wot I keep tryna tell everyone 



Jrides said:


> But who buys anything at the normal price?


Unfortunately, those who have yet to work out why they might not need to :(


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## parapentep70 (Jul 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> You seem to be missing the latest guitar


Right! Not captured yet in my ~weekly update. It looks good!


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## el-bo (Jul 4, 2022)

parapentep70 said:


> Right! Not captured yet in my ~weekly update. It looks good!


Yeah! I think it sounds great


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## proxima (Jul 4, 2022)

Personally, I would actually start with Komplete standard, definitely not Komplete UCE. You need time to digest new stuff, and you also need time to find the stuff you really want to use. Komplete will get you, most importantly, Kontakt Full, plus nearly all the major synths. You'll be able to figure out whether you like NI-style synths (and plenty of presets for them), and you might find that instead you'd rather go in another direction there. You'll get plenty of virtual instruments to cover your bases, and most importantly, you'll be left with a lot of budget to buy the particular non-NI libraries that start to look appealing, as you write more. 

On top of that, the upgrade path for Komplete means you can always go back and get Ultimate or UCE later, during one of the fairly regular 1/2 price upgrade prices. This might even be well after K14 is released and the first upgrade sale comes along.

I do think all of the Kompletes are a good value (even if you find yourself only using a fraction of it). However, that doesn't mean that getting UCE is the best use of your first €999. All of us have different tastes, and there have been threads like this one which give you some sense of what people would buy from scratch knowing what they know now. 

Take it slow. These libraries aren't going anywhere, and the sales come through in no time.


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## Thlian (Jul 4, 2022)

Jrides said:


> One thing to consider with spitfire. Some of the libraries only use the Spitfire sample player. Not kontakt. Some people like this. Some people absolutely hate this. if you haven’t tried it, you should before making your decision to see if you can get along with it. I think they use it with the free stuff.


I have Gaika Island and Cinematic pads with their player. So tried the both. Few options with those two libraries, but the UI in Kontakt player are so small it's nearly impossible to read since the window dont get any bigger.

I also read further up that someone think that spitfires player are a downer and with limited functions. I would gladly use SF own and actually I don't know why they dont use it more than they do. The player is not in any way limited, that depends on the library and how much work that has been put into that it. Spitfire symphonic Orchestra professional is a 1100 Euro 680GB library with 20 mic positions and who know how many different articulations and variations and so on and so on. This library do NOT use Kontakt.


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## liquidlino (Jul 4, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I have Gaika Island and Cinematic pads with their player. So tried the both. Few options with those two libraries, but the UI in Kontakt player are so small it's nearly impossible to read since the window dont get any bigger.
> 
> I also read further up that someone think that spitfires player are a downer and with limited functions. I would gladly use SF own and actually I don't know why they dont use it more than they do. The player is not in any way limited, that depends on the library and how much work that has been put into that it. Spitfire symphonic Orchestra professional is a 1100 Euro 680GB library with 20 mic positions and who know how many different articulations and variations and so on and so on. This library do NOT use Kontakt.


The major issue most have with spitfire player, is the lack of proper "purge" functionality. Purge removes all the sample buffer pre load, and only reloads what is required when played. Spitfire player only has ability to remove unused articulations, which is not the same as purge. Net result is that memory demand of BBC so pro is astronomical. Even a single mic for a full orchestra will exceed 32gb of ram, unless you spend a lot of time managing which articulations are loaded.


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## Thlian (Jul 4, 2022)

proxima said:


> Personally, I would actually start with Komplete standard, definitely not Komplete UCE. You need time to digest new stuff, and you also need time to find the stuff you really want to use. Komplete will get you, most importantly, Kontakt Full, plus nearly all the major synths. You'll be able to figure out whether you like NI-style synths (and plenty of presets for them), and you might find that instead you'd rather go in another direction there. You'll get plenty of virtual instruments to cover your bases, and most importantly, you'll be left with a lot of budget to buy the particular non-NI libraries that start to look appealing, as you write more.
> 
> On top of that, the upgrade path for Komplete means you can always go back and get Ultimate or UCE later, during one of the fairly regular 1/2 price upgrade prices. This might even be well after K14 is released and the first upgrade sale comes along.
> 
> ...


I have decided to put the NI UCE thought away and buy the crossgrade version of Kontakt at €125. 

I am getting rid of waves plugins bundle, still on trial. Just confusing, why would one need 10 compressors for only mastering and a s**t load of other eqs, filters and who know what! I have tinnitus and 60% decrease in hearing at 3-4khz so nuances ain't my strongest side.
Izotope subscription also going out the window, I bought a plugin alliance bundle through NI so I have enough from them to get things done.

For now, keeping UVI'S Sonicpass and Komplete Now. Because I want to learn how to use a synth, not only because of all the presets. I want to understand what I'm doing.

Signe up for a trial with Eastwest composercloud+, that give me access to Soundsonline whole universe. It just takes some time to get it all downloaded 🥴 Excited to give it a go, I know I might have sound nasal earlier. So I have to try it out before I through it to the dogs. You know what had me going? That they had a sample library named "Fat N Bass", so they might be cool after all 😎


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## Thlian (Jul 4, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> The major issue most have with spitfire player, is the lack of proper "purge" functionality. Purge removes all the sample buffer pre load, and only reloads what is required when played. Spitfire player only has ability to remove unused articulations, which is not the same as purge. Net result is that memory demand of BBC so pro is astronomical. Even a single mic for a full orchestra will exceed 32gb of ram, unless you spend a lot of time managing which articulations are loaded.


Do I hear clipping?! 😳 Maybe a $6-7k Mac pro will do the trick!


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 4, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I have decided to put the NI UCE thought away and buy the crossgrade version of Kontakt at €125.
> 
> I am getting rid of waves plugins bundle, still on trial. Just confusing, why would one need 10 compressors for only mastering and a s**t load of other eqs, filters and who know what! I have tinnitus and 60% decrease in hearing at 3-4khz so nuances ain't my strongest side.
> Izotope subscription also going out the window, I bought a plugin alliance bundle through NI so I have enough from them to get things done.
> ...


I've heard worse plans. I was probably speaking them at the time.


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## proxima (Jul 4, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I have decided to put the NI UCE thought away and buy the crossgrade version of Kontakt at €125.


A great idea. If I was to spend $1k right now, it would be on Kontakt Full, CSS, and Omnisphere. But it's impossible to know exactly what _you _will end up liking. The CC sub is a great way to try stuff out (I don't use my older EW HS Gold and HB Gold much now, but to each their own). 

Enjoy your new tools! Be sure to check out Pianobook and other resources for great free Kontakt libraries.


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## tc9000 (Jul 4, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I have decided to put the NI UCE thought away and buy the crossgrade version of Kontakt at €125


YES! hahah - this is what I have done and I don't regret it! Avoid bundles: yes it looks like good value, but only if you use it all! By buying just kontakt, you can pick and choose where your money goes.

You can mander through obscure indie devs. Cherry pick your way through orchards of freebies and low cost super-obscure libs all the way up to the major players... good call!


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## proxima (Jul 4, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> YES! hahah - this is what I have done and I don't regret it! Avoid bundles: yes it looks like good value, but only if you use it all! By buying just kontakt, you can pick and choose where your money goes.


You don't need to use it all, or even most of it, for it to be a good value. Still, as I said above, it's not where my first 1k would go. But unlike my CCC from EW back in the day, I don't regret eventually getting Ultimate.


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## Fidelity (Jul 4, 2022)

proxima said:


> You don't need to use it all, or even most of it, for it to be a good value. Still, as I said above, it's not where my first 1k would go. But unlike my CCC from EW back in the day, I don't regret eventually getting Ultimate.


Me too, bro. Regret buying the CCC.

Agree with Omnisphere. I'd personally steer people towards VSL SE1 syncron-ized for the poly legato orchestra (which you do have to set on every patch). Fill in holes with Vienna's free "soft imperial" and "celestial strings" as well as spitfire's "frozen strings" and still have plenty of cash left over for completely necessary (read: completely unnecessary) things like a used Komplete Kontrol S49ii.


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## DoubleTap (Jul 4, 2022)

el-bo said:


> While they're obviously not going to be everybody's cup o'tea, calling the expansions "sound packs" might be selling them rather short. There's a lot of well-honed, seemingly well-curated genre-specific content, across those packs. They do indeed come with synth-presets, but also a lot of kits/drums. Anyone working in those genres, or those who want to add elements into other styles, seems very well catered for.
> 
> Also, I thought the prices to upgrade within the same tier were less. My upgrade options during the 50% Summer Sale, from K13 Standard, were 299 Euros to step up to Ultimate, but 499 Euros to leap to UCE. From there, and I might be wrong, I could have sworn that the upgrade to the next UCE version was being offered for 250 Euros. Can anybody confirm?



Yeah I couldn't remember what they call them. But it's ultimately still tools v short cuts. Nothing wrong with short cuts, especially if you're a working composer or producer, and maybe it's a better thing to have fewer tools and be able to do more with them. Certainly I think part of my problem is that I've ended up neglecting some things because there's so much stuff to learn.

I wasn't referring to upgrades though - those upgrade prices sound about right. I was talking about the updates to the latest version of the same bundle. So if you had K12U and want to update to K13U when it comes out, you had to pay about €100 less than if you have K12UCE.

Actually it's been interesting taking a closer look at how NI price things. Without any discounts, it costs exactly the same to buy K13 Standard outright, upgrade to Standard from Select, or update K8-12U to K13U.


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## Braveheart (Jul 4, 2022)

I always been satisfied getting any version of Komplete, up to 13 UCE. One of the best bang for buck deals in the industry


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## dzilizzi (Jul 4, 2022)

Jrides said:


> You are correct about everything. I think the person was talking about the normal price. But who buys anything at the normal price?


Only people who actually make money with their music and have a current need for the library in a project or really rich people with excess spending money and no sense should by at normal price. 

You know, unless the library is $15. Then who cares.


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## HM_Music (Jul 4, 2022)

It all depends on the music you are going to make.
If after buying komplete CE you are not going to spend money in the near future, then I think it is not worth buying it. Komplete CE has a lot of interesting stuff, but it is all very rarely used.
If you don't have any other synths you should start with the Omnisphere, I bought the Omnisphere 2 months ago, all this time I was putting it off because of the price and I wish I had bought it sooner.

Orchestral stuff, there are a lot of options, depending on what you like the sound of
CSS/CSB/CSW
Cinesamples Core/pro, 
spitfire StudioOrchestral core\pro
Spitfire SSO Chamber Core\Pro
For myself I have settled on ImpactSoundworks TSS\Hevyocity Forzo\CSW, but this is a personal preference which may change. I have not tried Audio Imperia Solo but I think in the future I will replace CSW with it.


Piano
CinePiano when choosing Cinesamples Core is ideal
Embertone Walker D
ViLab TrueKeys German
Imperfected Samples Walnut

Percussion
I think for epic music Damage 2 can complement the HZ Perc.
A more classic sounding percussion CinePerc or a cheaper option ProjectSam True Strike



Of the plugins I would highlight
Analyzers - PluginAlliance MetrikAB, VPS Scope CM Free Edition, Youlean Loudnes Meter Free
Fabfilter Pro-Q, Pro-L are convenient and high quality things, this can also include other Pro-MB\Pro-C products, but there are cheaper compressor options, such as Waves Api-2500\LA, Plugin Alliance Elysia Alpha\ Millenia TCL or free TDR Kotelnicov.
I also like equalizers: PA Amek EQ 200, Waves Puigtec
Gullfoss, Soothe 2 controversial plugins but in general can help improve the sound, this can also include free OTT.
Valhalla Room\Vintage\LiquidSonic-Seventh Heaven - cheap and good reverbs
Valhalla Shimmer\Blackhole - atmospheric reverb
Saturation and Distortion: Eventide CrushStation, Waves j37\MaxxBaxx,Aphex, Kush Audio Omega\Decapitator, Plugin Alliance Vertigo VSM/Black Box


The only plugin that I consider indispensable is Fabfilter pro-q3 due to the convenience of working with it and the possibilities.
Although there is a SlateDigital subscription option. With which you get a sufficient set of processing... Saturators, equalizers, reverbs, compressors, tape/console emulations.
Also, sometimes you can buy the Ozone 9 Advanced inexpensively, or a set that includes it. For example, I bought the Tonal Balance Bundle for less than $150, and got the ozone 9 advanced, Neutron 3 advanced. It also has enough stuff for processing, except reverb. 
The limiter and saturation from isatop are considered some of the best on the market. And if I'm not mistaken vintage eq also emulates Pultec, although with an unusual design.
Personally, I bought it for the separate Multiband Imager plugin, which I never used.


Simply put, I do not recommend NI.
I consider Komplete CE only as a supplement where there's a lot of stuff you can use occasionally. But using this as a basic set for cinematic music in 2022 is a bad decision.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 4, 2022)

HM_Music said:


> It all depends on the music you are going to make.
> If after buying komplete CE you are not going to spend money in the near future, then I think it is not worth buying it. Komplete CE has a lot of interesting stuff, but it is all very rarely used.
> If you don't have any other synths you should start with the Omnisphere, I bought the Omnisphere 2 months ago, all this time I was putting it off because of the price and I wish I had bought it sooner.
> 
> ...


Wow, you really went the extra mile with that fantastic post!

Whatever my differences, I appreciate your thoughts here!


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## Thlian (Jul 4, 2022)

Lookinh forward to EW Stormdrummer, Fab Four and OPUS orchestra and the piano from Bechstein and Steinway. Though I like UVI'S Model D with it's built in plugins.
Crossing my fingers that the orchestra sounds less muddy than in the demos.

When it comes to free stuff I am a man who really never bought the concept of free. There is always some drawback to it. 
So if you have examples of some really really good ones, speak up. 

Oh, I remembered that I had guitar rig 6 lying around and tried it out with a piano, and I must admit that it was kinda fun 😊

After giving it some thought, si wont find out what I like and dont like until I make a piece of music. When I've comprehended Studio One and I need faders, 3 og 4, good ones, no sloppy plastic feeling ish stuff.


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## DoubleTap (Jul 4, 2022)

Thlian said:


> When it comes to free stuff I am a man who really never bought the concept of free. There is always some drawback to it.
> So if you have examples of some really really good ones, speak up.


I agree, but: Vital is a tremendous free synth. And Valhalla’s Supermassive is absolutely worth its place in my DAW.


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## Alchemedia (Jul 5, 2022)

Jrides said:


> I think the person was talking about the normal price. But who buys anything at the normal price?



The first lesson of VI-C is don't talk about VI-C, er, don't buy anything at full price!


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## liquidlino (Jul 5, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Lookinh forward to EW Stormdrummer, Fab Four and OPUS orchestra and the piano from Bechstein and Steinway. Though I like UVI'S Model D with it's built in plugins.
> Crossing my fingers that the orchestra sounds less muddy than in the demos.
> 
> When it comes to free stuff I am a man who really never bought the concept of free. There is always some drawback to it.
> ...


You don't really need faders. Many just draw in dynamics with the mouse. I bought faders and went back to drawing in, it's just easier and quicker. Catherine Dern and plenty pros draw in. Probably fifty fifty based on YouTube vids I've seen.


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## el-bo (Jul 5, 2022)

DoubleTap said:


> Yeah I couldn't remember what they call them. But it's ultimately still tools v short cuts. Nothing wrong with short cuts, especially if you're a working composer or producer


To be clear, I'm not talking about using the prefabricated loops. The expansions come with synth presets and usually a handful of Battery and Maschine drum kits. And while I'm not sure I'd ever buy an expansion, for its own sake, I think I'm going to enjoy them for what is essentially 'Free'



DoubleTap said:


> ...and maybe it's a better thing to have fewer tools and be able to do more with them.


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## liquidlino (Jul 5, 2022)

I think one major thing to think about. I literally have never seen any pro YouTube video where a composer or producer has pulled out any native instruments plugin or instrument. Only ever kontakt. I debated buying the upgrade from kontakt to ultimate this summer sale, auditioned everything and came to conclusion it was all so-so. Good value as a bundle for fun, but little of it is pro quality, bar the synths and maybe the big kontakt libraries such as arkhis. So I passed on it. Happy to spend more buying the right things once.


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## el-bo (Jul 5, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> Avoid bundles: yes it looks like good value, but only if you use it all!


I don't really understand this sentiment; at least, not as advice for someone else. How much of a bundle will be useful is going to come down to individual preference.

For my personal interests, these are why I now own KUCE. 

Kontakt
Reaktor
Battery
Una Corda
Abbey Road 70's Kit
Abbey Road 50's Kit
Abbey Road Vintage Kit
Discovery: India
Discovery: Middle East
Prism
Kontour
Mallet Flux
Kinetic Metal
Guitar Rig
Replika XT
Supercharger GT
Molekular
Polyplex
Massive X
Cremona Quartet
Noire
Arkhis
Symphony Series
Session Guitarist: Strummed Acoustic 2
Session Guitarist: Electric Sunburst Deluxe
Session Guitarist: Picked Acoustic

Some of the titles on this list predate my owning of Komplete Standard. My expenditure within the Komplete paradigm is around 900 Euros, but that also includes the very useful M32 MIDI controller. So, at least for me, KUCE is an absolute no-brainer. All the rest that comes with the deal are very useful (for me) icing on the cake


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> You don't really need faders. Many just draw in dynamics with the mouse. I bought faders and went back to drawing in, it's just easier and quicker. Catherine Dern and plenty pros draw in. Probably fifty fifty based on YouTube vids I've seen.


Can I have your faders, please?


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I think one major thing to think about. I literally have never seen any pro YouTube video where a composer or producer has pulled out any native instruments plugin or instrument. Only ever kontakt. I debated buying the upgrade from kontakt to ultimate this summer sale, auditioned everything and came to conclusion it was all so-so. Good value as a bundle for fun, but little of it is pro quality, bar the synths and maybe the big kontakt libraries such as arkhis. So I passed on it. Happy to spend more buying the right things once.


That doesn't quite match my experience. I've seen Databroth use Raum.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 5, 2022)

The synths are first rate, even if some are older programming. Reaktor is amazingly useful, as well as the Reaktor synths (Monark, Prism, and so on) and other ensembles (see Flintpope's products for instance). And for my tastes and interests, I don't think there is anything that sounds better than Absynth, even if it might be easier to program. I'd be surprised if professional composers who need good synths aren't still using these; but that is very possible. I really wouldn't know.


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## TomislavEP (Jul 5, 2022)

I have had Komplete Standard since version 9 came out and it is one of the best long-term investments for me. Not only this is a cost-friendly way of getting the platforms such as Kontakt, Reaktor, and Guitar Rig; the package is definitely my go-to source of bread-and-butter sounds, especially pianos, synths, keys, etc. For most of those, I seldom felt the need of going 3rd party, however, I must agree that for orchestral and cinematic styles there are far better options out there. So my strategy was to expand on KS according to my needs and budget. I never really considered going Ultimate although there are a few gems included that might be handy to have.

That being said, for someone just beginning to build a sound collection, KU or CE could still be a worthy investment that might also save you from future 3rd party GAS to quite some degree. Especially if you can get it with a big enough discount.


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## liquidlino (Jul 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Can I have your faders, please?


Ha! I really can't recommend them. I bought the Akai APCmini. On paper looks great value. Faders are fine (a little short throw perhaps), but the pain is that you can't program the cc channel for each fader. So I end up having to put tons of input fx plugins on every track template to map the faders to the "normal" cc channels. Plus, manually riding a fader is just like learning an instrument - hard and takes a lot of practice to do well. So I've just gone down the route of using cc curves or manually draw holding down ctrl+leftmouse, works fine. I did however find a good use for the akai - if I set it up as a control surface for reaper, then I can set levels on tracks using the fader - that's actually more useful than it first seems, there's a lot to be said for closing eyes and moving multiple faders around to balance tracks, just listening, not looking or thinking about mouse clicks etc.


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## liquidlino (Jul 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Ha! I really can't recommend them. I bought the Akai APCmini. On paper looks great value. Faders are fine (a little short throw perhaps), but the pain is that you can't program the cc channel for each fader. So I end up having to put tons of input fx plugins on every track template to map the faders to the "normal" cc channels. Plus, manually riding a fader is just like learning an instrument - hard and takes a lot of practice to do well. So I've just gone down the route of using cc curves or manually draw holding down ctrl+leftmouse, works fine. I did however find a good use for the akai - if I set it up as a control surface for reaper, then I can set levels on tracks using the fader - that's actually more useful than it first seems, there's a lot to be said for closing eyes and moving multiple faders around to balance tracks, just listening, not looking or thinking about mouse clicks etc.


Replying to myself. But I'll probably also spend some time mapping all the buttons on the APC mini to reaper actions, it'll be like a massive stream deck, I can never remember the arcane ctrl+shift+wave right hand keyboard shortcuts I assign to actions.


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## el-bo (Jul 5, 2022)

TomislavEP said:


> KU or CE could still be a worthy investment that might also save you from future 3rd party GAS to quite some degree.


While UCE could be all that many would need to make great music, I'm not sure it'd offset much GAS. GAS is the seeking and acquiring of gear to satisfy the need to seek and acquire gear, albeit 'justified' by a "I just need this one more thing, and then I'll be able to..." sentimentHaving already acquired everything one needs (to do 'the job') many decades ago will not stop GAS in its tracks.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 5, 2022)

el-bo said:


> While UCE could be all that many would need to make great music, I'm not sure it'd offset much GAS. GAS is the seeking and acquiring of gear to satisfy the need to seek and acquire gear, albeit 'justified' by a "I just need this one more thing, and then I'll be able to..." sentimentHaving already acquired everything one needs (to do 'the job') many decades ago will not stop GAS in its tracks.


It is a sad and sorry tale, experienced by many.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Ha! I really can't recommend them. I bought the Akai APCmini. On paper looks great value. Faders are fine (a little short throw perhaps), but the pain is that you can't program the cc channel for each fader. So I end up having to put tons of input fx plugins on every track template to map the faders to the "normal" cc channels. Plus, manually riding a fader is just like learning an instrument - hard and takes a lot of practice to do well. So I've just gone down the route of using cc curves or manually draw holding down ctrl+leftmouse, works fine. I did however find a good use for the akai - if I set it up as a control surface for reaper, then I can set levels on tracks using the fader - that's actually more useful than it first seems, there's a lot to be said for closing eyes and moving multiple faders around to balance tracks, just listening, not looking or thinking about mouse clicks etc.


I have a QuNeo with touch pad sliders. I do love it; but I think some physical faders would be a little more controllable for expression, dynamics and (where available) something like vibrato would reduce the amount of time editing the CCs afterwards.

Yes, it takes practice; but it comes fairly - not very - easily to me as a guitar player who constantly modulates notes, tone, plucking style, velocity etc. I found it transfers reasonably well to midi controllers. It's probably a little less familiar to those who play piano, say, which is, at heart, a percussive instrument.


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## el-bo (Jul 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> It is a sad and sorry tale, experienced by many.


The plebeians, perhaps! But i can assure you, with absolute certainty, honesty and sincerity that I've never bought anything motivated by the notion that "This one last...is the thing that I need, to finally be able to...".

Seriously! Honestly! Sincerely!

Nope! Not me


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## Thlian (Jul 5, 2022)

How in the earth are drawing expression and dynamics waves with a mouse easier than using faders?


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 5, 2022)

Thlian said:


> How in the earth are drawing expression and dynamics waves with a mouse easier than using faders?


You just draw in the general curve, or click in a particular setting at a particular time, rather than controlling the parameters moment by moment like a performance. You can edit it as much as you like to hit different settings at different points.


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## liquidlino (Jul 5, 2022)

Thlian said:


> How in the earth are drawing expression and dynamics waves with a mouse easier than using faders?


Well, for the low low price of a set of faders, you too can find out! 

It's fun to try, and you might like it. Don't let me put you off having fun. Everyone likes different things.


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## Thlian (Jul 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> You just draw in the general curve, or click in a particular setting at a particular time, rather than controlling the parameters moment by moment like a performance. You can edit it as much as you like to hit different settings at different points.


I think I actually rather have faders at my fingertips and feel my way through the music.


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## Thlian (Jul 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> Well, for the low low price of a set of faders, you too can find out!
> 
> It's fun to try, and you might like it. Don't let me put you off having fun. Everyone likes different things.


Yep, but no plastic crap. VS faderbox looks like a box bought at a hardware store and but some really cheap non resistent slidees in there. It might work just fine and have a good app. But it has to feel sturdy and quality built.


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## DoubleTap (Jul 5, 2022)

el-bo said:


> To be clear, I'm not talking about using the prefabricated loops. The expansions come with synth presets and usually a handful of Battery and Maschine drum kits. And while I'm not sure I'd ever buy an expansion, for its own sake, I think I'm going to enjoy them for what is essentially 'Free'


I’d say I’ll come quietly but there’s a noise floor.


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## arimurri (Jul 5, 2022)

Imo it is a good time to upgrade to Ultimate but not CE if you have anything above K9-10. CE has very niche stuff unless you're into Maschine and its expansions. And Komplete maintains its upgrade benefits regardless of your version (again if you're above 9-10) so next year, you'll most likely have the same benefits to upgrade to K14U as well.


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## parapentep70 (Jul 5, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> It is a sad and sorry tale, experienced by many.


Count me, agreed with everything said by liquidlino... but not on GAS prevention. I think the brain goes with something like "My Komplete was cheap during summer sales, so I kept some cash left to start considering something from Spitfire or 8Dio or Soundiron"


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## dzilizzi (Jul 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I think one major thing to think about. I literally have never seen any pro YouTube video where a composer or producer has pulled out any native instruments plugin or instrument. Only ever kontakt. I debated buying the upgrade from kontakt to ultimate this summer sale, auditioned everything and came to conclusion it was all so-so. Good value as a bundle for fun, but little of it is pro quality, bar the synths and maybe the big kontakt libraries such as arkhis. So I passed on it. Happy to spend more buying the right things once.


Damage. Oh and maybe Alicia's Keys? But definitely Damage.


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## Greeno (Jul 5, 2022)

liquidlino said:


> I think one major thing to think about. I literally have never seen any pro YouTube video where a composer or producer has pulled out any native instruments plugin or instrument. Only ever kontakt. I debated buying the upgrade from kontakt to ultimate this summer sale, auditioned everything and came to conclusion it was all so-so. Good value as a bundle for fun, but little of it is pro quality, bar the synths and maybe the big kontakt libraries such as arkhis. So I passed on it. Happy to spend more buying the right things once.


what about the Alan Silvestri video where he goes through his Kontakt library multis and has NI instruments in there?


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## tc9000 (Jul 5, 2022)

tc9000 said:


> YES! hahah - this is what I have done and I don't regret it! Avoid bundles: yes it looks like good value, but only if you use it all! By buying just kontakt, you can pick and choose where your money goes.





el-bo said:


> I don't really understand this sentiment; at least, not as advice for someone else. How much of a bundle will be useful is going to come down to individual preference.


Oh - well - I've been caught up a few times in buying a bundle, only to find I only used a few items from it.

But you are right though - "avoid bundles" is a bit strong - I've landed some superb deals by _not _avoiding bundles, and no doubt I will be looking over upcoming bundles with great interest 

A better way to have put it would have been - _beware_ bundles - you can save big, you take a bit more risk if you end up not liking much / all of it. (obvs really ahaha)


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## Thlian (Jul 5, 2022)

Funny, no wonder they have a 30 Day trial on EW composercloud, it takles 30 says just to download evrything. Either that or their server are on purpose slow. On top of that my harddrlve is full. Out for a new 4TB disk


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## proxima (Jul 5, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Funny, no wonder they have a 30 Day trial on EW composercloud, it takles 30 says just to download evrything. Either that or their server are on purpose slow. On top of that my harddrlve is full. Out for a new 4TB disk


I hope you mean SSD. You do not want to run these off of spinning disks.


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## Thlian (Jul 5, 2022)

proxima said:


> I hope you mean SSD. You do not want to run these off of spinning disks.


You are absolutely correct, I will correct myself. It's a SSD and not HDD. External m.2 at that size is a budget buster.


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## Thlian (Jul 6, 2022)

Well, back to topic. For some reason I can't seem to find the separate instruments, either am I pushing the wrong buttons (as my wife would say), they are very well hidden or they can't be bought outside a bundle.
It's more of a curiosity to see if those small things I want, actually alone reaches 1k quickly.

But for now, I will try out EW, the few things I have downloaded sounds promising. And having access to that package for $10 a month I am more than happy to subscribe for now, cause then I can cancel at any time. That's why I have started a discussion around buying big bundles. In the long run it's cheaper, but subscribing gives access to all updates and new stuff. I have phases, almost bi-polar when showing interest in things, without the extreme top and bottom. But it's scary you know to suddenly have tid brief moment of spontanious not-very-good-judgement, and loose interest after a short periode of time. As said before, we go ALL in like little Kids when buying new stuff, we fiddle around and we get tired of the fiddling. I think the magic to not end up there is to find use of it, record it, make a piece of cool music and that in itself gives a warm fuzzy satisfaction. If that makes you happy then it's worth the investment. It's not trying to become a know composer, producer or song/beat maker. Sure, earning money is a good bi-product, but in the end, why do you do it? Because it's fun and it gives you pleasure 😊

You noticed I for the most part said you and not I or we? That's because I'm still learning to play the piano....., so not home safe right yet. I have promised myself that this is not going to be one of those phases where I grow tired. I have regretted that some many times, for once in my life I want to hold on to the interest, it's always been there. I as well have to find the fun in it, I get bored when I try and try and try, repeating and repeating the same piece 50 times on the piano and it still dont sit. But learning the theory around note, tones, sales and chords doesn't have to make me the best player. I don't have to be Leif Ove Andsnes (well known Norwegian piano player touring the world playing Chopin, Tjaikovsky and stuff like that). Just need to be good enough to feel that I can make something out it and be satisfied by it 😊

Said back to topic, I kinda went out into the woods there.....


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## TomislavEP (Jul 6, 2022)

el-bo said:


> While UCE could be all that many would need to make great music, I'm not sure it'd offset much GAS. GAS is the seeking and acquiring of gear to satisfy the need to seek and acquire gear, albeit 'justified' by a "I just need this one more thing, and then I'll be able to..." sentimentHaving already acquired everything one needs (to do 'the job') many decades ago will not stop GAS in its tracks.


Unfortunately, you are probably right on this. What I really wanted to say earlier is that Komplete offers much more than people often say or suggest. I'm frequently surprised by comments about how software from NI is not fit for "more serious work" and things like that. Whilst Komplete might not be an "ideal package" for everything and everyone, it is still IMO a firm foundation.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 6, 2022)

Thlian said:


> Well, back to topic. For some reason I can't seem to find the separate instruments, either am I pushing the wrong buttons (as my wife would say), they are very well hidden or they can't be bought outside a bundle.
> It's more of a curiosity to see if those small things I want, actually alone reaches 1k quickly.
> 
> But for now, I will try out EW, the few things I have downloaded sounds promising. And having access to that package for $10 a month I am more than happy to subscribe for now, cause then I can cancel at any time. That's why I have started a discussion around buying big bundles. In the long run it's cheaper, but subscribing gives access to all updates and new stuff. I have phases, almost bi-polar when showing interest in things, without the extreme top and bottom. But it's scary you know to suddenly have tid brief moment of spontanious not-very-good-judgement, and loose interest after a short periode of time. As said before, we go ALL in like little Kids when buying new stuff, we fiddle around and we get tired of the fiddling. I think the magic to not end up there is to find use of it, record it, make a piece of cool music and that in itself gives a warm fuzzy satisfaction. If that makes you happy then it's worth the investment. It's not trying to become a know composer, producer or song/beat maker. Sure, earning money is a good bi-product, but in the end, why do you do it? Because it's fun and it gives you pleasure 😊
> ...


Just remember to bounce all instrument tracks to audio when you are happy with them. The con on subscription services is you can't access the sounds once you stop the subscription. 

I do think in your case subscription is a good starting point. If you like the sounds, they will be on sale again. And in EW's case, about every month or two.


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## dzilizzi (Jul 6, 2022)

TomislavEP said:


> Unfortunately, you are probably right on this. What I really wanted to say earlier is that Komplete offers much more than people often say or suggest. I'm frequently surprised by comments about how software from NI is not fit for "more serious work" and things like that. Whilst Komplete might not be an "ideal package" for everything and everyone, it is still IMO a firm foundation.


I think it was the CE that most of us think is not worth it when starting out. I have CE and like it, but I also have SSO and Berlin Orchestra. I think if you are doing game or trailer music, CE might work. But if you want to do orchestral, you are better off spending limited money on an actual orchestra that sounds good.


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## TomislavEP (Jul 7, 2022)

dzilizzi said:


> But if you want to do orchestral, you are better off spending limited money on an actual orchestra that sounds good.


Yes, for orchestral and cinematic styles there are quite a few superior 3rd party options. The more niche you are going, you'll probably find more complaints in a package such as Komplete. However, for bread and butter sounds people sometimes advocate "far better alternatives" while stating reasons that are (IMO) not quite objective.


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## Marko Cifer (Jul 7, 2022)

It also completely depends on the style you're trying to pursue. Which is something that someone just getting into the hobby and/or career might not know yet.

So for example, a bundle like Komplete is fantastic value for when you're not really sure what you're going for quite yet, and it offers a very wide palette (and it gets wider with the more expensive bundles) of (types of) sounds to choose from and it should serve you rather well if you just need general coverage - something wide, but not necessarily deep. Thing is, "general coverage" might mean something very, very different between users. In my case, it gives me enough tools I still actually use and appreciate for it to be worth the price I paid for K13CE (through upgrades, over time) and then some. However, someone else will never, ever need a lot of the stuff that's in the bundle, and it just makes no sense to pick it up. But also, something that a lot of us here would say that 3rd party alternatives are much better than certain parts of the bundle, well for some it would suit their needs just fine. So it's tricky.

parapentep70's method is probably the best way to tackle a bundle (any bundle, really) - go through everything, make a judgement call how useable that particular part of the bundle would be to you, and how much you'd be willing to pay for that part on its own, then tally everything up. It's a bit harder if it's a bundle that does not sell its components on its own, but you can do a generalized content distribution value appraisal to get a feeling for it anyway. We actually do it all the time when we pick up sample libraries!

Hell, how's this: how many libraries do a lot of us have where certain parts of them just to not get used as much in our projects? Or, hell, how many libraries have you picked up where you thought you'd use one portion of it, but then maybe a year down the line you're using the stuff you thought you wouldn't use, but are barely touching the stuff you got the library for?

This is why subscription options can actually be valuable, if they're offered alongside being able to buy-out the content too. It's a way to effectively demo something (for a fee) that otherwise has no demos, then see if it's something you'd only occasionally need (just sub at those times) or if it's something you'll need all the damn time. So Thlian's current plan sound like a good idea.

A part of the appeal and potential problems with bundles, probably, is the mentality of saying "I'll throw money at this problem, get a bunch of stuff at a deep discount, and it's stuff I _might_ need some day and I sure do hope it covers what I do actually need", versus "I'll only spend money on specific tools where I _absolutely know_ I'll need them" - with the gamble being that we either hope that the bundle stuff won't need to get replaced by something "better" and that by forgoing bundles our à la carte purchases won't be a lot more expensive than just using some stuff from a bundle. Thing is, our needs might change over time, and something that's crazy valuable today just isn't going to get much use in a month or two, and vice versa.

From a newbie's perspective (it's not that long ago that I started, so it's still semi-fresh in my memory): you simply might not know a lot of these tools (orchestral and other ensemble/solo instrument libraries, synths, all the different kinds of plugins) are gigantic rabbit holes too (this forum is a testament on that), and while you're still in the honeymoon period where pretty much everything looks neat as hell but you understand very little of it and it's very, very overwhelming. There's also the psychological effect with sales, bundles and adding stuff to your tool-box "just in case". While not yet realizing that every added tool, every purchase, also means that you'll probably need to invest some time into learning said tool if you wanna use it beyond complete surface-level plonking. Or for example when a tool investment would be more about saving time doing some stuff manually versus letting the tool automating or simplifying the process, and how much potential control you're giving up by doing this.

So for example of someone new, with string libraries there's a very low chance you'll be capable already to think in terms of "do I need chamber or something bigger for this", "how prominent do I want the room to be", "what kind of adaptability do I get from the included mic positions", "what is the specific character of the short articulations and do I like the attacks on this one", "how immediately plonkable are these articulations or would I need to spend a lot of time on taming and sculpting them". If you're like early me, you'll just see the videos and hear the demos and make a note of buying it some day and hope for a sale and that you'll have funds at the time. I also wouldn't think in terms of library characteristics - where I want it to be pre-processed and ready to go, or where I'd instead want it to be more raw and therefore more malleable. And also, you might not realize that this shiny new tool you're looking at is actually something you could do with two or three tools you already have, if set or processed correctly, for no additional cost, and the result will be more personal.

Once you do start to more accurately realize the specifics of what you're aiming for, what type of sound you're after, what you expect from a virtual instrument or a library of a certain type, and what tools you need to achieve your vision, that's when "outgrowing parts of Komplete" or any other sufficiently large bundle happens - if you're willing to invest in alternative tools that you feel do a specific job better. But it's not something that will inevitably happen to everyone - unfortunately, as an owner, you'll only truly know down the line.

For example, Monark was fine for me until I got spoiled to death by using Diva, now I just can't go back to it. On the other hand, while I do use Razor less nowadays, I still do load it up, even thought I have other Additive-capable synths.

And, to end off this tl;dr post, there's also the question of what we expect out of picking up a certain tool. And just how deep we need some of the tools we use to be versus others - for example I've gotten hella picky with strings and synths, but for brass, woodwinds and some other instruments I tend to not overthing it as much as strings, so I wouldn't need as much depth there. Plus, I'm guessing a lot of us like to think we buy stuff where we'll get utility out of it, but haven't you bought at least one thing where it might not get used much practically, but it's just so cool to fiddle around and play with? Or maybe you haven't yet, but are planning to, or wishing to? I'll give an example for myself - Spaghetti Western by Fluffy Audio; there's a near zero chance of me ever scoring a western, but by golly I'd be grinning while plonking on that thing if I ever do grab it just to toy with it. I think it's fine to sometimes get stuff just for yourself, to have fun with it - as long as you're aware of what you're doing and it's not eating into your finances for other, way more important stuff, and you're not doing it constantly.


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## el-bo (Jul 7, 2022)

TomislavEP said:


> I'm frequently surprised by comments about how software from NI is not fit for "more serious work" and things like that.


Me too. I can’t think of many pieces of NI's sprawling collection that isn't fit to be used in the template of a professional Media composer…and there’re many instruments that could be right at home in the template of serious cinemtic composers. And even though I understand that the Symphony Series is not going to be a first-call orchestra for the majority of folk here, I'm inclined to believe that were those same folk restricted to SS only, that they'd be able to make it 'sing'.


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## Nigel Andreola (Jul 7, 2022)

Thlian said:


> How in the earth are drawing expression and dynamics waves with a mouse easier than using faders?


When I need to draw in MIDI CC, I use a Wacom tablet with a pen input. Using a pen instead of a mouse also has the added benefit of taking the stress off your fingers and wrists for mundane tasks.


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## Thlian (Jul 7, 2022)

Nigel Andreola said:


> When I need to draw in MIDI CC, I use a Wacom tablet with a pen input. Using a pen instead of a mouse also has the added benefit of taking the stress off your fingers and wrists for mundane tasks.


Guess you play the track while you are drawing those fancy waves?


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## Thlian (Jul 7, 2022)

T


el-bo said:


> Me too. I can’t think of many pieces of NI's sprawling collection that isn't fit to be used in the template of a professional Media composer…and there’re many instruments that could be right at home in the template of serious cinemtic composers. And even though I understand that the Symphony Series is not going to be a first-call orchestra for the majority of folk here, I'm inclined to believe that were those same folk restricted to SS only, that they'd be able to make it 'sing'.


Thanks for a long and insightful feedback. Nice to read what your experience are, but still being subjective about it all. 

Right now evrything are standing still. I have to download one library at a time from EW and they have about 30 of them. 2 libraries a day, you do the math. Can't use anything, even playing off a wave file from ghosthack is an issue. Combination of EW's very demanding software and a slow drive.


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## el-bo (Jul 7, 2022)

Thlian said:


> T
> 
> Thanks for a long and insightful feedback. Nice to read what your experience are, but still being subjective about it all.
> 
> Right now evrything are standing still. I have to download one library at a time from EW and they have about 30 of them. 2 libraries a day, you do the math. Can't use anything, even playing off a wave file from ghosthack is an issue. Combination of EW's very demanding software and a slow drive.


It's more about my observations than personal experience. But there're people within this community who I'd bet can make Spitfire LABS sound like a $500 library. Check out @Taron 's work. Pretty sure he has some examples of squeezing more greatness out of Spitfire's 200mb 'Discover' than anyone dared imagine.


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## Thlian (Jul 11, 2022)

I've picked up on recording while fiddling a bit. Could have shared it, but afraid the 30 second track I spent 2 hours on would be laughed at.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 11, 2022)

Thlian said:


> I've picked up on recording while fiddling a bit. Could have shared it, but afraid the 30 second track I spent 2 hours on would be laughed at.


Probably not. Whenever I've posted a demo that is really awful, people are usually kind enough to ignore it!

And, of course, I'm sure it's not awful and would be very useful to people.


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## Spid (Jul 12, 2022)

Not too long ago, I mentioned in a post that we should learn what we already have instead of always chasing something *new*… mainly because we need to spend time with some tools to learn how to use them, exploit them as much as we can…

So last night, I decided to explore the Cremona Quartet that is included in the Komplete 13 Ultimate Collector bundle. When I purchased the K13UC, I didn’t dig all stuff… I generally just buy the update because I had a previous Komplete Ultimate. I skip couple years and then I buy again the update to be sure I can always enjoy the reduce price for the update. So I didn’t paid attention to what I had… and I was chasing something *better*

Well well well… I have to say I was very surprised last night because I really liked the Cremona Quartet. So, maybe it’s just because I’m a noob regarding Composer stuff, and high-end orchestral libraries, maybe I haven’t develop my ear (yet?) to hear all legato imperfection, etc… but somehow, I would say it’s already a good library for my current level. That’s why I’m gonna add it to my template I’m building. Maybe it will sound foolish for some more advanced user here on this forum, I have no doubt about it, and maybe I will change my mind once I will get more experienced in that domain, but for now, it’s already a great Quartet library I will try to exploit.

TL;DR: Sometimes it’s good to check what we have, and the K13UC could be a very good addition to someone that would be new to this and would get into composer stuff. It takes time to reach a level when we can be more critical about libraries and their imperfections. And everyone has different taste, so it’s better to make our own mind based on our own experiences.


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## Bee_Abney (Jul 12, 2022)

Spid said:


> Not too long ago, I mentioned in a post that we should learn what we already have instead of always chasing something *new*… mainly because we need to spend time with some tools to learn how to use them, exploit them as much as we can…
> 
> So last night, I decided to explore the Cremona Quartet that is included in the Komplete 13 Ultimate Collector bundle. When I purchased the K13UC, I didn’t dig all stuff… I generally just buy the update because I had a previous Komplete Ultimate. I skip couple years and then I buy again the update to be sure I can always enjoy the reduce price for the update. So I didn’t paid attention to what I had… and I was chasing something *better*
> 
> ...


Mostly, I think the sound of Cremona is unpopular. It's a little harsh, as it was bowed very lightly.

I like the sound, but have problems with some of the technical aspects. The virtuoso articulation has to be used carefully to avoid extreme portamentos (or edited to remove them by avoiding the higher velocities), and it often just stops working for me and I have to reload it. There are other bits and bobs; I'm not comfortable with its vibrato, though it is nice that it is adjustable as part of a performance.

If you like the sound, there is no reason that you can't or wouldn't want to continue using it forever, however skilled you become. Every library has limitations. So do players, but good libraries are much more limited than good players!

I think that a good lesson is one that I've heard often, and which Christian Henson has emphasised. When working with libraries, you have to compose to the library. It's different if you are using the library to do a mock up for a recording with musicians - there, you want to find libraries (that you have, or that you have the budget for) that enable you to best present your ideas in the mock up. But if the library is to be in the final product, you have to work with it and make the most of what it can do well for you. Whatever you are doing, you have to learn the library and what can be done with it.

Of course, if, as a matter of personal enjoyment, inspiration, or boredom, someone wants to buy new libraries, have a play and move on, more power to them! So long as it is working for what you want to do and not getting in your way.

(In case the subtext isn't obvious, I'm currently trying to talk myself out of buying something I can ill-afford!)


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## Spid (Jul 12, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I like the sound, but have problems with some of the technical aspects. The virtuoso articulation has to be used carefully to avoid extreme portamentos (or edited to remove them by avoiding the higher velocities), and it often just stops working for me and I have to reload it. There are other bits and bobs; I'm not comfortable with its vibrato, though it is nice that it is adjustable as part of a performance.


Hmm... weird, I didn't have any issue like that. I mainly just play with it just to check all articulations, build my custom articulation map in Logic and include them in my template, so it's more about discovery than editing... so maybe I will discover more "bits & bobs" as you say when I will try to edit something... I like the fact we can adjust vibrato rate and force. Also, we can really have a lot of articulations to have so much nuances, I definitely like it.



Bee_Abney said:


> If you like the sound, there is no reason that you can't or wouldn't want to continue using it forever, however skilled you become. Every library has limitations. So do players, but good libraries are much more limited than good players!



I have no doubt that the biggest limitation here is me... not the libraries. I have so much to learn about composer stuff that I have no doubt I surely overlooked some details, or maybe I don't hear them (yet?). 

But for me, it's really a matter of "comfort". For instance, I have the Eastwest Cloud+ and I tried OPUS and yet I'm not comfortable. And yet, I watched and heard lot of great music and demo done with Eastwest user. So the main issue is not the library but me.

However, when I tried Cremona Quartet, I felt very comfortable with the layout, the different articulations, mic and features. It was very "easy" to understand and I could build my custom map for my template. 



Bee_Abney said:


> (In case the subtext isn't obvious, I'm currently trying to talk myself out of buying something I can ill-afford!)


Ohhh, I know that feeling. By checking what I already have (including Cremona Quartet in K13CE), I also try to not chase the next ill-afford library (VSL Synchron Package) and talk myself out of buying it.... well, at least for now


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