# Frustrated with mixing lately.



## Dan Mott (Jul 6, 2010)

*FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT ARE ALREADY A LITTLE OVERWHELMED BY THE AMOUNT OF TEXT THAT'S IN THIS THREAD, PLEASE REFER TO QUESTION 10 AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE! *

*Intro to Frustration*

See the thing is, i'm so fussy that sometimes i literally cannot mix because of it. I can never decide what instrument goes where in the mix aswell as loudness. I bring all my levels down then bring them up one by one, but then a few minutes later i end up starting all over again because i feel ive done it wrong, or that it isnt right, but it's never right..... RIGHT???

*Body of frustration*

Ok so i have reference mixes. Yes... they are great to use, but something confuses me and bothers me to a point where i cannot understand. The mixes a listen to sound very different to what my sounds sound like inside my DAW and i see that this is normal right??? No, i'm not saying my mixes should just magically sound like my reference mixes, but i'm saying there's something going on where electronic and bass sounds inparticular just sound different. I suppose this is normal because the track you reference has already been mastered, so then how do we reference properly?? 

Electronic/synth/orchestral/dance/tribal music is compressed most of the time and the levels that were done before it was mastered where different, therefor when mastered, it all comes together as a more of a wall of sound so you can hear everything, but still hear the depth. 

I find that my mixes do not cut through well. Everytime i practice a mix, the treble isn't high enough and it basically sounds like a big ball of sound rather than any depth. Sometimes i think i have that, but when i come back the next day or next morning it sounds different and this keeps happening. Where does it end??  

Sometimes i think the instruments already have enough treble, or have no mud because i cut it out, but then it actually doesnt because i never knew what it would sound like before someone else noticed, you know what i mean?? Sometimes i think that because i don't notice anything before someone mentiones it, that i have bad ears or just generally do not even hear mud??? Basically i like the way sounds SOUND before they go into the mix, and those adjustments just kill that away when seperating frequencies.

I have adam A5s and they are good i suppose, lack of bass, but oh well. I cannot afford any sound treatment so that's off the charts, nor a sub or something.

*Questions*

*1.* Should i find a level of monitoring (listening) where i'm comfortable with and just keep at that level and don't change it untill the mix is done?? Is this what you guys do, and would this make sense? I always listen loud, then soft and all over the shop. Maybe this is an issue?? (important question)

*2.* Everywhere i go in my room, the sound changes and i hear frequencies i never heard before. The closer i get to my speakers, the muddier the sound gets, but further away the mud goes away. Guys............... this is crazy, i have no idea where to sit in my room to where i'm getting an accurate sound to what everyone else would hear in their room. Where to sit.... haha. I laugh because it's quite funny how when i move my head the sound changes and i can hear more frequencies and i basically do not know the right place to put my head if you know what i mean.

*3.* I haven't made a full song in 3 years, but i apparently love music and love to make it........................ Do i really??? I don't know... you tell me, i mean i haven't made a song in 3 years, or maybe it's 4 now. Don't you just think that's crazy??? (just thought i'd chuck that question in)

*4.* How far away do you guys sit from your near field monitors??? Does is really matter??

*5.* Is it strange that i sit at my chair all day, maybe like 6 hours and i do absolutely nothing but sit and listen to the 15 second score i wrote over and over again?

*6.* Do you think i should not sit at my desk for a year or something, do you think that might help me??

*7.* Does getting out and about really help you write more?? I heard everybody saying this and well, are you all just saying it, or have you actually exprienced this your self??

*8.* Is there any videos i can view that any of you know of that i can watch of someone putting a song together from start to finish?? I think this would give me an idea of some sort of workflow for structure of song which i LACK!!! (i really do, no attention seeking intended)

*9.* Is it normal that everytime i listen to i song i like that i want to not compose this sort of sound i believe i have developed my self in the past few months?? When i listen to i song i like i always think i like it more than i like my stuff, so this makes me well... less inspired to continue with this personal sound i'm coming up with (yes..... i'm confident that i have, no arrogance intended, it took me a long time to get this right, and still am getting it right. I do not believe i'm diferent all this.)

*10.* Do you think you have the strength to read this?? If you do then that's amazing and it's much appreciated. It's not boring, trust me it's worth the read..... i hope!!!

Thank you.[/b]


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## Ashermusic (Jul 6, 2010)

I believe you are suffering from what is generally referred to as approach/avoidance syndrome.

You know the Nike commercials, right? Just do it!


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## RiffWraith (Jul 6, 2010)

1. Basically, yes. Everyone has their own way of working, but I know a few top engineers that will set a level (usually around 85, if not exactly), and mix at that level for the duration. There will be an occassional level change - up or down - to check things momentarily, but almost all of the mixing is done at the same level.

2. That's because you are not in a pro mixing enviornment. Maybe think about an investment for room treatment?

3. I haven't made a full song in 3 _days_. And I am going nuts.

4. Yes it does matter. You want to be as far away from your speakers as they are from one another. Think equilateral trinagle. http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos ... ement.html

5. Very.

6. No.

7. Not me, no. In fact, if you ever get a gig scoring a tv show or feature film, you won't be getting out at all. Get used to writing without getting out.

8. Waste of time. Everyone has their own methods, and what works for one person, does not work for the next.

9. Huh?!?!

Jay's comments are right on.

Cheers.


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## midphase (Jul 6, 2010)

"1. Should i find a level of monitoring (listening) where i'm comfortable with and just keep at that level and don't change it untill the mix is done?? Is this what you guys do, and would this make sense? I always listen loud, then soft and all over the shop. Maybe this is an issue?? (important question) "

No, as a matter of fact, it's good to vary levels every once in a while to give you a different perspective as to how things sound at different volumes. Keep in mind that the louder the level, the more you're exciting the air particles in your room and causing unwanted summing and canceling spots. On the other hand due to the way the human ear perceives sound, low levels might seem less bass heavy (although that's just an illusion). When doing a critical mix, at some point I always will turn down the volume to the point of barely audible levels, if something sticks out of your mix, it will be apparent.


"2. Everywhere i go in my room, the sound changes and i hear frequencies i never heard before. The closer i get to my speakers, the muddier the sound gets, but further away the mud goes away. Guys............... this is crazy, i have no idea where to sit in my room to where i'm getting an accurate sound to what everyone else would hear in their room. Where to sit.... haha. I laugh because it's quite funny how when i move my head the sound changes and i can hear more frequencies and i basically do not know the right place to put my head if you know what i mean."

The problem here is that everyone seems to spend lavishly on "gear", and nobody considers treating the room they mix in for acoustic issues. Note that treating the room acoustically has nothing to do with sound isolation and containment, the two are often mistaken for one another but they are completely different. Please take the time to do research in the field of acoustics, start in places like Auralex.com although there's plenty of info out there. At the very least you might need some bass traps. The listening position should ideally form an equilateral triangle with the two front monitors.



"3. I haven't made a full song in 3 years, but i apparently love music and love to make it........................ Do i really??? I don't know... you tell me, i mean i haven't made a song in 3 years, or maybe it's 4 now. Don't you just think that's crazy??? (just thought i'd chuck that question in) "

I think many people tend to get so focused on making everything as perfect as possible that they don't produce anything. They're constantly in a tweak and improve work-in-progress phase. If that's your situation, stop tweaking, finish the one piece you're working on and move on to the next piece.


"4. How far away do you guys sit from your near field monitors??? Does is really matter?? "

Yes it does matter, equilateral triangle, 2-4 ft from your monitors...adjust as necessary.


"5. Is it strange that i sit at my chair all day, maybe like 6 hours and i do absolutely nothing but sit and listen to the 15 second score i wrote over and over again?"

Read answer to #3 

"6. Do you think i should not sit at my desk for a year or something, do you think that might help me??"

Now you're starting to lose me...


"7. Does getting out and about really help you write more?? I heard everybody saying this and well, are you all just saying it, or have you actually exprienced this your self??"

Get some exercise! It's amazing how many of us become studio rats and never see the light of day. Seriously, health is way more important than a stupid deadline. Get out, smell the flowers and burn some calories!


"8. Is there any videos i can view that any of you know of that i can watch of someone putting a song together from start to finish?? I think this would give me an idea of some sort of workflow for structure of song which i LACK!!! (i really do, no attention seeking intended) "

Oh the YouTube generation! Must have quick answers now in video form with lots of graphics and animation. Sigh...



"9. Is it normal that everytime i listen to i song i like that i want to not compose this sort of sound i believe i have developed my self in the past few months?? When i listen to i song i like i always think i like it more than i like my stuff, so this makes me well... less inspired to continue with this personal sound i'm coming up with (yes..... i'm confident that i have, no arrogance intended, it took me a long time to get this right, and still am getting it right. I do not believe i'm diferent all this.)"

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## rJames (Jul 6, 2010)

Post music here and ask advice on mixing.

Listen to those you respect... And they are numerous here...but not all.

You'll begin to get a better and better idea of what is best for your mixes.

I learned all I know right here and now have a few people who can be an extra set of ears.


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## wst3 (Jul 6, 2010)

disclaimer - I started to learn to mix in smallish commercial studios in the 1970s, and the workflow was decidedly different! This has affected my approach to all things in the DAW environment - some for better, some maybe not... AND, I'm still learning to mix!

1. Should i find a level of monitoring (listening) where i'm comfortable with and just keep at that level and don't change it untill the mix is done?? 

That's what I was taught, and that's what I do. I can almost set the level to 85 dBSPL without a meter these days<G>! It's comfortable, it allows for a lot of dynamic range, it doesn't fatigue my ears. When I think I'm done then I listen to it at different levels on different systems... and sometimes I'll do that in the middle of a project if I've run into a wall.

2. Everywhere i go in my room, the sound changes

That is a major obstacle!!! You need to fix that. Really...

3. I haven't made a full song in 3 years

I've gone longer than that without completing a project, depending on the other demands on my time! I am not (yet) fortunate enough to do this as my sole means of supporting my family.

4. How far away do you guys sit from your near field monitors??? Does is really matter??

This will probably stir up some controversy, but I don't like near field monitors. Oh there are some I think sound cool, but I never did learn to mix or even track with them. I use them as a reference, but mostly I mix on my mains whenever possible.

When I do use the near field monitors I tend to set them about 10-12 feet apart, and sit about the same distance from them.

5. Is it strange that i sit at my chair all day, maybe like 6 hours and i do absolutely nothing but sit and listen to the 15 second score i wrote over and over again?

Strange? No! Counter-productive? Possibly. There are folks I've met who are amazing mixers that do exactly what you describe, and they get great results. I have too short an attention span to get away with it, so when I find myself in that position I stop, take a break, and come back, or switch to a different task altogether.

6. Do you think i should not sit at my desk for a year or something, do you think that might help me??

I don't know, but that probably would not work for me.

7. Does getting out and about really help you write more??

Absolutely! On a couple of levels really - 

First, getting out to hear live players ALWAYS improves my work. Whether it's an orchestra or a pop duo in a tiny coffee house, it's the act of getting out and listening. And while I don't do it as often as I used to, getting out and playing can be even better.

Second, it helps me get over the rough patches just to get away from the project for a bit, even if it is only to go have dinner with my family, or play with my kids.

8. Is there any videos i can view that any of you know of that i can watch of someone putting a song together from start to finish??

Never tried that myself, but, that is sort of how I learned, except it was live instead of video. I think if the video was well done, and the mixer was good at their job it could be a good way to learn some of the tricks of the trade.

9. Is it normal that everytime i listen to i song i like that i want to not compose this sort of sound

Normal? What is this "normal" you speak of? (said with a grin!!)

I can have one of two reactions to a piece of music, especially something I've never heard before. I might try to emulate it, or some aspect of it, if I think it's really cool, and use that as a springboard into something new.

OR, I can go running like my hair's on fire because I know I can never ever duplicate the greatness of whatever it is I just heard.

10. Do you think you have the strength to read this?? If you do then that's amazing and it's much appreciated. It's not boring, trust me it's worth the read..... i hope!!!

They are all good questions... and as long as one is askinòê:   Û,Qê:   Û,Rê:


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## ozmorphasis (Jul 6, 2010)

The title of your thread is "Frustrated with mixing lately" 

Reading even a little of your post, however, leaves me immediately thinking that mixing is the least of your worries. Ok, that sounds worse than I intended it to. Let me elaborate. 

You are essentially claiming that because your are "so fussy about the mix" that you can't get past a few bars or 15 seconds of music. That, my friend, is a problem that has NOTHING to do with mixing. You need to learn to stay with a creative line of thought without critique, long enough for the thought to develop. 

This is a whole subject unto itself, with many books having been written about the subject. Most authorities on the matter will tell you (and I agree with them) that the critical(mix engineer/mastering engineer) part of your brain is very important, but that it can almost only do harm during the creative stages. In other words, you need to create a bunch of stuff before it is actually worth criticizing any of it.

At your stage, and given your complaint, I would make it a goal to finish a composition of short length every 2-3 days, and keep shelving them, without trying to finalize the mix, and without trying to master it. Get to the place where you feel that writing is easy. Then, try to tackle the other stuff that is, frankly, a whole other career unto itself traditionally.

It's a dangerous world we live in where we have to be composer, orchestrator, mix engineer, mastering engineer, etc, etc, etc.....*all at once*. 

With more experience, it's true that many of these will happen naturally AND at roughly the same time...or at least with some back and forth. However, judging by your frustrated post (and many other similar posts on the East West forum by you), I would recommend training yourself to get comfortable generating more musical material before polishing it.

Referencing your favorite material constantly does NOT always result in inspiration. It all depends on what the voices in your head are telling you while listening. You, my friend, have some voices that are keeping you from creating music. I don't care what anyone else says about the role of the composer in these technological times, your priority should still be to create musical material. Mixing should always remain secondary to that first aim. Of course, a great composer hears a good mix/orchestration in his head...yada yada. We all know that, but first you have to be in the flow. Get that back...assuming you've ever had it. It's WAY more important than all of the other details combined *if you want to be a composer.
*

O


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## Ashermusic (Jul 6, 2010)

ozmorphasis @ Tue Jul 06 said:


> The title of your thread is "Frustrated with mixing lately"
> 
> Reading even a little of your post, however, leaves me immediately thinking that mixing is the least of your worries. Ok, that sounds worse than I intended it to. Let me elaborate.
> 
> ...



Great post, Oz. In order to create anything, one must find a way to turn off the "judge" in their head until a substantial amount of work is done or one gets paralyzed.

When you are classically trained, you are taught early on to do this.


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## Justus (Jul 6, 2010)

I have found that the only way to overcome listlessness is to set yourself a goal.
(There was a time were I just didn't get anything done and just got frustrated.)

For example you could tell yourself: "This week I'm gonna compose, arrange and master 4 pieces for my demo reel!"

Side Effect of this is that you will improve every time you work on new piece, and that also includes the mixing process.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 6, 2010)

I set a 0dB working reference level (pink noise at 85dB out of both speakers), but I agree with Kays that it's a good idea to check at different levels. And different speakers, if you have them.


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## rJames (Jul 6, 2010)

Dan-jay, I read your ten points a bit closer. It is almost incredible and yet I believe you are seriously asking for help.

You are trying too hard. As someone said, don't try to flesh out a song as you write it. On the contrary,as an exercise, write a complete song that is as much of a sketch as possible. Finish it. Then flesh it out. Just use your ears and put uin parts that sound like they are supposed to be there. After you've fleshed as much in as possible, take out as much as you can. Take out doubled notes, take out sections or instruments that are doing similar things as other sections.

Regardinga mixing. Don't worry about mix as you go. 

Ijust redid my studio. As ai researched it I a found that the best placement of your ears in a studio is about 38% of the way in the room. E.g. Ayour ears should be either 38% of the way from the wall you facea to the one behind you or vice-versa. This is a starting point if you can't afford to treat your studio.

Just write. Don't be afraid to copy someone else cause it's not going to sound like them anyway. I mean listen a then go away and compose.

But also don't be afraid to sound unique. Just write anything.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 6, 2010)

I'd thank everyone personally but there's to many so i thank you all for such great advice. I really took it in.


I do have a question. You guys say you mix around 85dB SPL, how do you know you are mixing at this level? Is there something you can buy so you can tell how loud you are mixing?? I say this because not only do i want a mix that sounds good at listening level, but i want to protect my hearing. If you guys do mix at say 85dB SPL, then how do you go about doing that with a dynamic track?? Would you adjust your mixing level so that your loudest part of the song is 85dB SPL?

Hmm.. not sure what else to say. Maybe i need to not mix untill i've finished a track so that i get things done and i don't get bored to quickly.

Thanks once again!!


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## midphase (Jul 6, 2010)

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index ... Id=2103667


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jul 7, 2010)

Dan-Jay, you send pink noise through your speakers with the meters at 0dB and then adjust the level of your amp to read 85dB on your SPL meter.

Like everyone else I have the older version of that meter Kays linked, and it's fine (as long as you don't try to measure very low levels). If you have an iPhone you can buy a meter program for $1 or something, and it's close enough.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 7, 2010)

midphase @ Wed Jul 07 said:


> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667




Cheers.


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## Dan Mott (Jul 7, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu Jul 08 said:


> Dan-Jay, you send pink noise through your speakers with the meters at 0dB and then adjust the level of your amp to read 85dB on your SPL meter.
> 
> Like everyone else I have the older version of that meter Kays linked, and it's fine (as long as you don't try to measure very low levels). If you have an iPhone you can buy a meter program for $1 or something, and it's close enough.




Sorry, but what do you mean by pink noise?? :oops:


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## Frederick Russ (Jul 7, 2010)

Dan - here you go for wave file samples of pink and white noise:

http://www.burninwave.com/


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## Dan Mott (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks guys.

I think i'm doing it wrong though.

I point the SPL metre at my speakrs and adjust my amp so it says 85dB, but it's way wayyyy too loud, even for pink noise and it still doesn't reach 85dB. I get up to about 70dB and that's when it get's too loud for me to handle, and if it was music, there's no way i could listen at those levels.

I'm aslo confused. Why would you measure pink noise rather than music or something, pink noise is much softer than music... right???

I'm really confused as in how you do this.

Any help would be great.


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## JohnG (Jul 8, 2010)

85 dB is loud, but bear in mind that this is with the pink noise at 0 on your meters. Thus, this level of volume should be experienced at full peaks only, with everything at fff or louder, so your "regular" listening level will normally be far lower.

I go for 88 dB, personally, but some record producers -- people who are making albums -- listen at much, much lower levels. I like loud music and I find it more exciting.

Not every track starts off at 0 dB of course; this is only for the full mix. I set the default for individual track faders (violin 1, French Horns, etc.) at -12 dB so that there is plenty of room to get louder if something is getting buried or I just want to feature something.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 8, 2010)

Word of advice: before doing any calibrations or measurements of loudspeakers with test tones, protect your ears. Always.

I wished somebody had told me that, my tinnitus would be way softer today.

BTW I mix at 79 dB most times, and check even softer.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jul 8, 2010)

I think you should quit.











:wink:


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## Synesthesia (Jul 8, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Thu Jul 08 said:


> I think you should quit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :lol:


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## Dan Mott (Jul 8, 2010)

Yeah, you're right. I.... quit. I'm selling my stuff tomorrow and moving to dubai.


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## wst3 (Jul 8, 2010)

I've made more than my fair share of enemies with the following opinion, but I figure its still safer than wading into the current "guns" thread elsewhere on this fine forum!

I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone here... in fact I find the selfless sharing of knowledge and experience here to be a real positive indicator... but I still have to ask:

How did we get here? 

I am absolutely 100% in favor of the 'democratization' of music production for many reasons. From a selfish perspective it gives me the opportunity to hear, and maybe share, music that once lived in only in my head. In 1975 if you wanted to mock up an orchestra you were pretty much out of luck. I suppose with a big enough modular synthesizer you could get close, for the day, but it was nothing like today.

From a less selfish perspective I also get to hear the work of a lot of fine composer and songwriters that might not have otherwise come across my radar. OK, that's still partly selfish<G>!

But I am absolutely 100% against marketers that spin tales that encourage folks to believe that ALL they need to create their masterpiece is one more piece of hardware or software.

Don't get me wrong, it's getting closer and closer to reality, but it isn't reality today, and it seems to me grossly unfair to take money from folks on a false pretense. Anyone here remember those song-pitch ads of old? "Send us your song -and your money - and we'll create a world class demo for you" - what a concept, if the song was crap the seller still got money from the fish - if it was actually good then they had several avenues for revenue. ARGH!

My current pet peeves:

DIY Mastering - please, how in the world is the average home studio owner going to build the space, develop the ears, and gain the experience required to properly master a recording? That's just insane!

Fix Room Problems with loudspeakers and DSP - the fundamental flaw here is that the room has to be really really good already to benefit, you can not fix time domain problems in the frequency domain, nor vica-versa<G>! You might (underscore might) be able to create a very small listening spot that does not suffer horribly from room mode problems, but you are not going to fix bad reflection problems. More insanity!

Coming back around, and again I do not mean to pick on anyone here, but how can someone get to the point where they have tracks to mix and not have either the basic knowledge to set up a mix environment or a more experienced mentor to help them do so? Has the internet completely replaced in-person mentors?

That would be a shame! In 1975 it was a cinch to get a non-paid gig sweeping floors, or fetching coffee, or if you were really lucky soldering patchbays, in return for watching and learning. You did not have to know what pink and white noise were, nor how to measure signal levels electronically or acoustically - didn't hurt if you did, the experienced engineers were there to help.

As a result of the rather high price of entry you probably didn't buy your first multi-track machine or mixer until you had a pretty good idea of how to hook them up and use them. (Yes, there were exceptions, real geniuses that just got it - but that's hardly a good yardstick!)

These days a company will sell you pretty much anything you want, and not only do they not care if you know why you are buying it, in some cases they are banking on the fact that you don't.

I think it is great that Dan-Jay found this forum. I don't know what his background is, but it appears he has not yet had the opportunity to set levels, and as such it is a good thing he landed here instead of some other forums where there is a much higher noise to signal ratio.

That does not change the fact that I think the sales chain (from developer thru sales weasel) could do a lot better job of informing their customers. No one in that chain believes that people can still go hang out at their local studio and experiment with the tools before purchasing them, and again, I think they count on that.

As an aside of sorts... many/most of the sample library developers that I am familiar with are going the extra mile to explain through audio and video demos exactly what you are purchasing. Many will let you download the manual before you purchase. These are all good things - not a complete substitute for hands on experience, but probably as good as it gets, given all the piracy problems.

OK, I'm done now<G>...


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## JohnG (Jul 8, 2010)

Fair points -- hire an engineer to master by all means -- but two things have changed that make it very difficult for vendors to help.

1. Everyone does it differently now, by contrast with the Olden Days when everyone did things more the same -- hardware mixing board, cables, an amp, un-powered speakers, limited or no computer sound sources; and they HAD to go to a studio to record unless they had a million dollars.

So the guy in the store can't know or advise you unless he's seen what you are doing.

2. A corollary point is that the guy in the store can't know if you are an idiot or not, so by talking to you he may just talk himself out of a sale. Or maybe by "idiot" I mean someone who's unwilling to educate himself before trying to use gear that is very complex. As we all (ought) to know, even when one knows more than the customer, explaining to him why he's wrong is a big mistake.

Besides, the most unbelievable processing is available now that in former times would have cost a fortune. So the harm done? Maybe some day the customer will get out the manual or at least go to Youtube and actually learn the gear?


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## midphase (Jul 8, 2010)

I totally 100% agree with WST3's post. He's right, how did we get to this place? This is almost worthy of its own thread.

We are experiencing the dark underbelly of the technological explosion that too place 20 years ago and hasn't stopped since. These are all issues that a few wise people foresaw, but the majority chose to ignore...so here we are.

A composer shouldn't have to know what a dB meter is, or what pink noise is...he should be able to compose, and then go to a studio to record real musicians and hire an engineer to give it a proper mix.

Instead, not only are we preoccupied with orchestrating and arranging and performing all of the parts ourselves...but we're recording, mixing, editing, mastering, a who knows what else...and you know what? The end product keeps getting blander and blander.

Don't fool yourselves...our mixes lack the vibrancy and depth of what the previous generation of engineers could accomplish. We're not even close...yet here we are patting ourselves on the back of how cool we are to be able to master all those skills....meh!

The trend of course is to do more, not less. Here we are now dutifully learning how to use Final Cut Pro and Photoshop (what? You can't? Better get with the program buddy...those are now required skills). 

I theorize that 50 years from now, the concept of someone who is "just" a composer/editor/mixer/sound designer/mastering engineer/etc/ will be as outdated as the concept of someone who is "just" a pencil and paper composer is becoming today. I think we'll see the creative arts blending into one another, with filmmakers taking on more and more roles as technology facilitates that. So going towards the 22nd Century, we'll be dealing with a single individual who functions as the writer/director/cinematographer/cgi/composer/sound designer/editor/mixer/colorist etc. It's already happening right now.

So what does that mean for composers? I think what that means is that we will need to evolve (those of us who will still be alive then) into those other skills.


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## Ashermusic (Jul 8, 2010)

Well stated, sir.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 9, 2010)

Spot on, Kays. But for every mainstream there is a counter-movement ... smaller but still there. Think industrial food production vs. organically grown food. I have always been a counter-movement type of person.


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## rJames (Jul 9, 2010)

Paradigm shift. When it happens, some lose their footing and others find opportunity.


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## wst3 (Jul 9, 2010)

So glad to see I'm not alone in my "strange" and definitely against-the-flow thoughts.

Many many years ago I agreed to work on a speculative spot with a film-maker friend. Why either of us thought he could break into advertising at the top of the heap is beyond me now, but we were young... yeah, that's my story!

Between us we knew several very talented players... check!

And I had just recently moved my computer/synth based studio into a more conventional facility... check!

So I had the place, I had the players, and I could sweeten things with synths tied to timecode. I was sitting pretty.

Except I did not have an engineer to help with tracking, nor mixing, and I did not have a producer to watch over the whole thing, and I needed a bass player.

I did finally guilt the studio owner into helping out (the pity quotient as he watched me was probably pretty high<G>) but I ended up being a player (bass), mixer, editor, and producer, on top of being the composer. It was not fun, took us almost six hours to finish a 60 second spot.

I learned a LOT that day! Makes me wonder why anyone would want to wear all the hats. But that is where we've landed it seems.

Which is not to suggest that it isn't a great deal of fun to sit down with an empty canvas and just go to town - but that's a very different mind-set, I think, from actually producing a recording. I can sit in my little cave and work for several hours wearing every hat, and have fun doing it. But there is not time pressure, and there is usually no concern about a deliverable. This is my time to learn, to hash out an arrangement, maybe even track a piece just for fun.

When it's time to put something together for real I'd prefer to work with other folks. Alas that is not as simple as it once was. Maybe (always maybe) when I finally get my act together and finish my new studio it will be easier to work with other folks, but right now I am constrained by space, and the fact that I am working in my home.

There is, I should probably mention, one hat I never wear for my own material, and that is mastering engineer. No matter what, if it's going to be heard by the public it gets vetted by another pair of ears. But that's me<G>!


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 11, 2010)

Lot of fair points in this thread!


And its a really interesting one...


But Why the change? How did it happen? Should Composers know this or that?


I all of us need to recognise the fact that there is a new instrument available to composers now - The Computer.

It is a modern day instrument - in many ways. It is the centre of creativity for most of us now whether some like it or not. 

Technology has penetrated in many parts of our lives and music is no different. I actually think that even the piano or the violin is a form of technology - its just older, still as beautiful as it once used to be - and so is the computer. 


So its only fair that composers have a good enough idea of how to operate this new instrument. And good enough - is really what you need. You dont need to be an expert. 

Of course, when you are younger and not a big time composer - you need to know all you can - and thats not really a bad thing. When you down have the money - you orchestrate yourself and do things by yourself. Once you have the liberty - you try to space this out to better suited minds. I think to an extent thats what Zimmer does.

The explosion in the software on the market is not a new thing for humans - Just look at the variety of cheese at your local super market. 

But it does not mean that its impossible to enjoy some good cheese.

To a newcomer, things will always be confusing. But I think its important to fall and then learn from mistakes or through exploration. 

You can go to university? Do some summer courses.....assist someone for some time. There are many ways to learn. You need to read up on a LOT of things and then try to apply them.

When the budgets are low (mostly the case) - we are forced to do it ourselves. 

I think composers would rather sit down and orchestrate to finer details if they knew that the levels and reverbs were going to be taken care of by an expert.

But guess what - they arnt! So you gotta move ahead with what you have.

And I think all of us dont compose only orchestral music. I think today, composers treat any sound as a potential. And I think thats great! There are so many more possibilities.

One always has a choice to limit the amount of gear and tools available. I like to focus on lesser gear. 

There is a tendency to think too much about the mix - I actually think we destroy it ourselves a lot of times because we want to skip ahead too quickly.

I think, it does not hurt to do some basic research first. 

Mixing ITB and creating a template is kind of a composers headache. Sure, he may hire someone to help him - but it still needs the composers full attention because he/she is going to be using it all the time! 

Of course - when it comes to recording music - thats where experts are really required. You need to have a great space to mix and master. Forget Matering actually. Thats another thing all together - it requires a world class setting. 

But with skimmed budgets - what do you expect? We all need to pay the bills. 

Is that going to stop us? No! Why should it. If its your dream - chase it. And it will happen in due time.


Dan - dont beat yourself about mixing, processing etc. You must be strong and read up and learn about it little by little everyday and you will see that in 6 months, you will have a much nicer sound.

The industry itself is divided on many issues - when it comes to audio. Some will hate a certain brand - others will love it. You want to design a studio? What kind? LEDE? Or Non-Environment - there are supporters for each. What do you do? You research. You get to the bottom of it and you hire the right guy and you make up your own mind.

Nothing is impossible in this world. If you have the passion, the guts and the right attitude - its going to get you what you want.

Its not that difficult. After all so many people are doing it here. Do you think less of yourself? Dont.


I used to play a Yamaha PSR synth till I was 18. Of course, I had played the grand piano in school for many years. As a student in India, I did not have opportunity to learn western classical music formally - which I love so much.

I used to listen to Mozart as a kid - My father had somehow managed to import a couple of CD's from the US in the late 80's. 

From there on - it has been an interesting journey. I managed to get on a Music technology course in the UK and I locked myself up.

I used to feel low for a lot of time. Whenever I would stand with fellow students - they would talk about music theory and things that I would not understand at all.

I had never used a MAC or PC for creating digital music as such. I had very limited experience. Some how - my demos impressed 5 universties in the UK and I had the opportunity to choose which one to join. 

Nobody taught me orchestral music in a Music Technology course and nobody was interested in it too. 

I tried to apply to USC Thornton school of music for Film Music Masters. Got rejected of course. I used to adore John Williams Superman score as a kid and loved all of holllywood music. Even the New Line Cinema Logo music - everything! 

I always wanted to score films. But I dint have the formal training. And it has held me back - it still does. Now, I try to catch up as much as I can.

I then went on to do a Masters in Film and Television Music in the UK itself.

Point is - I had no clue about convolution reverb or samples or anything. 

But so many people on the VSL forums and VI Control have helped me. Through a series of Private messages, reading up, hours of epxerimentation - I can say produly that I have a decent sound - its not great yet but its an ongoing process.

But you have to be positive and keep on learning and doing. Because you know what? 

When Life deals you the best cards - you dont want to be unprepared.

So - just dig into this now and never look back. 

Its absolutely possible to do anything you desire if you really work hard and focus. This whole habbit of learning about various things is a trademark of every sucessful composer. You sit down and think about various things - you absorb them and hopefully it reflects in the maturity of your music.

We never stop learning composition, orchestration, digital effects, MIDI or world instruments etc - whatver is out there.

I think its an amazing time to live in today. People like me get an opportunity to be a part of orchestral music. It is my great honour to be a part of this great tradition. I know - so many of you have studied music formally for many years and thats great. But, of course I refer to the adler, harmony books and many other texts from time to time. Advice on this forum is also great!

And the only sleepless nights I have is over my ability to write for the orchestra which I hope will get better in the years to come. 

So all in all Dan - I think just take a deep breath and just get into this head first! 

May be you can share your sound with us after a few months - hopefully much better and improved!


Good luck!


Best,

Tanuj.


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## PasiP (Jul 11, 2010)

Thank you so much for that post Tanuj. I enjoyed reading it and it sure made me try even harder for reaching my goals and dreams.

8)


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## Dan Mott (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks Vibrato, i learned from your post. I appreciate the input alot!!!


Thanks again, and also to everyone elses input.


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## Jaap (Jul 13, 2010)

Some really great posts here!

Dan Jay

I have seen you posting already for 1,5 year now more or less the same question and I do not envy you that you are still stucked and I can't imagine how frustrating that must be.

The way I see it is that you suffer a few problems:

1: how to compose in general in a constructive way
2: how to find your own identity in the music you want to create
3: how to produce everything in a professional manner
4: how to make a living from all this (based on previous post here and on EW forum)

Those are very tough problems which require a lot of structural change from your side.
First of all I still think you should consider an education.
A good study can be the foundation for many things such as knowlegde, network, experience, a stable environment where you can experiment without the risk of getting "hurt".

During a study you can discover a lot about yourself. You will have to work in a disciplined environment, have to work with deadlines, etc etc and you will discover a lot about yourself which can also be done of course on your own, but as said, you will not have a protected environment (a client will not be mild if you fail) nor the advice you might need.
Even if a study doesn't work out as you think it should have been it is still something to consider because of the above points (knowing what you DON'T want is almost as important as discovering what you want).

What you want to study and want to be depends on yourself of course. As it looks now you are trying to be a jack of all trades and I think nowadays there a lot of study options where you can combine certain things. Like here we have a study as composer for multimedia, which also gives a lot of attention to producing etc. Probably something similar is available as well in Melbourne and most educations have orientation days anyway which can be good to visit (also other studies to know what's out there and to see what looks the most suited).

Then the next problem as addressed here also is where we stand nowadays as composer and what to do with the thing we call computer :mrgreen: 
The good thing about computers is that we suddenly have a lot of tools which make a lot of work much more easier then it was before. The downside is that it is almost too much and gives so much options that it's hard to figure out in what part you should specialise.
I compare the nowadays composing and working on computers a bit with period in the beginning of the 20th century in the time that Schoenberg, Webern and Berg where working in the atonal period. Basicly that period was called free atonal period (before the Dodecafonie was introduced) and everything was possible. You should say that this should bring absolute freedom to the composer, but in fact most of them felt limited and started searching again for a new set of rules to work with.
The same applies to ourselves with the sudden boost and availability of all the high end samples, computers, plugins etc.
It gives us all the power to do everything, but the result is that we have no idea on what we should focus.

When I started working with computers I was completely overrun by all the options. I am graduated as classical composer, was trained in the old fashioned way and the only reason I had a computer in the later part of my study was that my publisher demanded Finale scores instead of handwritten ones.

A few years later I found myself also like you with a lot of questions and problems and I reconsidered that path I was walking. I was very unhappy with working as contempary composer and I wanted to broaden my workenvironment. I discovered the world of audio for games and film and decided to give that a shot. I started to research what options there where as starter on that carreer path and discovered that as starter you hardly could find your way without samples etc.
I registered here  and started to dive into everything etc (long story, not interesting) and learned to work with samples and computers, build my own company for audio for games and that turned out pretty well. Anyway the moral of this story is that I discovered a whole new way of composing, but very quickly I discovered also that nothing can and will replace live instruments. With that attitude I started to work on my compositions and focussed more on creating good sounding music without the need for myself to be "realistic". If a client wants hyperreallistic sound, then he should pay accordingly and let me work with live musicians. 
If he wants good music for low budget I can do that with samples, but I am not going to pretend it's realistic in the way of live music.
Nowadays I work like a sort of Mahler. From September till June I work on the stuff from 3 Peak Audio (mainly sampled work) and in the summer I work on my private compositions (symphony and opera atm) in the old fashioned way without any computer, but I keep these 2 worlds seperated since for me it are different jobs nowadays.

The computer is for me now a new instrument and it's not a tool to reproduce or replace instruments. Samples and computers are the new organs of our 21th century. You can do amazing things with them and you should experiment like mad with the options, but never try to replace anything with a computer. 

You might think: ok what the hell has this to do with me and the points I asked and points you summed up in the beginning:

The point I am trying to make is that you should start experimenting and try to set aside your current view of what you think samples should do for you. Start to think outside the box and start educating yourself. Discover who the real Dan Jay is and what he wants. You are very young, you invested already a great amount of money in tools, now invest a bit more in discovering your own creative artist inside yourself by taking an education, courses, find a teacher etc.

Maybe you turn up in 10 years as recording engineer, ballet composer, folley artist, sample library dev, house producer, DJ or whatever, but the main thing is that you need to discover yourself and as soon as you found one (or mabye even more) directions you might want to go, the problems you are facing now will slowly fade away.


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## bryla (Jul 13, 2010)

Good post, Jaap!

I was thinking last night, that when you say you have trouble writing more than 15 seconds at a time, then work on that! 

Write without your computer/sequencer. Buy blank sheet paper and a pencil and work your way through a composition (that could even be melody with chords, not a whole symphony!) with an instrument of your choice and your paper, and try to see what you can do compositionally.

When you then try to import it to a sequencer, you'll probably be focusing more on the actual music of it, and less on 'mixing', and that will lead to better mixes - in a strange way. It has for me anyways.


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## ozmorphasis (Jul 13, 2010)

bryla @ Tue Jul 13 said:


> Good post, Jaap!
> 
> I was thinking last night, that when you say you have trouble writing more than 15 seconds at a time, then work on that!



Exactly! This was the point of my post as well. As long as you are not writing, you are not a composer. Maybe you'll discover that you actually want to become a mix engineer? I don't know.

However, I do know that despite all of the many facets that a computer-based composer must address (mixing, software, etc), the one thing you are NOT allowed to stop is the generation and development of musical ideas. There are many types of composers, but the one thing they all have in common is that they generate and develop musical ideas. That is the heart of your task as a composer. Mixing and the rest of it are subservient to this task IF you are a composer. They are not subservient if you are a mix engineer, mastering engineer, music producer, etc.

Figure out what you really want and what you want your personal involvement to be with that particular musical end result. The rest is hard work.

O


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## Dan Mott (Jul 14, 2010)

Holy heck.

Thanks Jaap for that input, that must of taken a while to write hehe.

I took in what you said.

Yes, it's true and strange that i have been asking similar questions over the past year. I actually envy my self for doing it. I should just do it you know.

I don't want to be a film composer, nor DJ, nor that i'm worried about making it just to clear that up. I'm doing music for my self at the moment. To express emotions on past experiences which is the only way i feel i can let it out.

Studying is a good idea. If i was to study anything it would be structure of song and arrangement. I feel that i don't need to study on how to mix because i feel that i know enough to know what to do. I just had to come here a clear some mixing questions up because i was confused about levels. In the end, it's up to me and how i want the mix to sound, and that's nothing someone else can teach me considering i know the basics, not to mention i have been studying this topic for years and years. I will still be learning, no doubt about it, but it's time i put in what i learn. One day i do want to master a mix.

As i said before, i'm writing an 8 track album for my self which will consist of vocals and have a very ambient emotional sound. I have developed a sound i want, now it's time for the hard work, but to get going is very tough. I would call my self a lazy guy, but somehow i need to overcome this crap and get moving if i want to finish it by next year.

To clear a few things up, i suffered major depression for a very long time and i'm still recovering today. I'm still looking to find what can motivate me to do anything during the day instead of sleeping. I suppose music is the only thing that would make me feel great when i finally finish this message a want to send, but as i said, making my self do it is very difficult.

Anyway.


Thanks everyone. Feel free to comment on anything else.


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