# How do I push instruments further back with reverb



## 10Dman (Mar 9, 2015)

Hello

I've tried to place some of my sample libraries further back in the "room", but when I use f.ex QL Spaces with hollywood strings they just sound as the hall is huge but the seating is just as close as it was before.
With Cubase I also have REVerence and Roomworks, but with the same result.
Extremely dry libraries like Sample Modeling and LASS2 becomes hard to use, and I rely more on instruments with far mic placements to make the orchestra more realistic.
Preferably I would like to have very dry instruments, but be able to push them back without any sound of the size of the room.

And suggestions to push instrumenst back without making the hall itself sound bigger?

Thank you,
10Dman


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## Daryl (Mar 9, 2015)

The easiest solution is to use SPAT. Solve all your problems with one fairly hefty price tag.

D


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## Rob (Mar 9, 2015)

the stereo width gives information about the instrument being close or far... so I reduce the width (sometimes up to the point of setting it to mono) to push the instruments back.


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## lee (Mar 9, 2015)

Roll off the highs with an eq.


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## wlotz (Mar 9, 2015)

Here's what I do: I use VSS2 for early reflections and stage placement. Then, I send some signal to the AUX channel with a ValhallaRoom to add some tail. I send it pre-fader so I can control the instrument volume and the level of reverb independently (slightly more reverb for instruments further down the stage).


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## muk (Mar 9, 2015)

Some plugins that can do this (in no particular order):

VirtualSoundStage 2 by Parallax

Origami by Independence

Vienna MIR by VSL

Spat by Ircam

Proximity by Tokyo Labs (free plugin).

Or you can do it by means of altering the stereo width, EQ (reduce some of the high frequency content), predelay (the further back the less predelay) etc.


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## willbedford (Mar 9, 2015)

When using completely dry recordings, I often use two reverbs in series. One short and dense reverb to push the sound back (usually on each track), and another longer reverb to add the tail (on an aux return).


I don't know if this is the 'correct' way to do it, but it works for me (and it's cheaper than VSS or SPAT).


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## EwigWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

Pick a song of something you are aiming for as a reference track. I would use something from "traditional" recordings (for example Jerry Goldsmith or John Williams) and not so called hybrid recordings at this point. So you can get an idea of the overall sound field and stereo width.

Then use a plugin like http://a1audio.de/index.php/a1stereocontrol to control stereo width of the samples. (It's free plugin)

After that roll some of the highs off with an EQ and you can also do little shaping in 3kHz and around 400Hz. Don't forget to check low rumble. Get rid of it if there's any of rumble.

You won't need Spat, VSS or MIRpro to get a good 3D sound. I bought MIRpro, but soon after sold it because it just didn't do it for me. One thing to remember is that to get the best overall sound is to use libraries that are recorded in the same space. I know it isn't possible for all like myself, but I heading there with OT's Berlin series.

And listen! Trust your ears and use reference tracks. Start from small things and learn how different instruments behave together.

Proximity by Tokyo Labs is a great tool too


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## kfirpr (Mar 9, 2015)

Guys 
When you using VSS2 for early reflection do you cancel the early reflection on the tail reverb? I use B2 and cancel the diffusion knob (I'm pretty sure it's the ER)


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 9, 2015)

willbedford @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> When using completely dry recordings, I often use two reverbs in series. One short and dense reverb to push the sound back (usually on each track), and another longer reverb to add the tail (on an aux return).



Yup, that's pretty much what I do.

To the OP - Spaces only provides tail reverb, the sound of the hall itself, so you will need something else to do the pushing back from the mic thing. If you already have a convolution reverb you'll hopefully have some suitable short impulse responses to get you going. I use an ER that was supplied with LASS, but there's tons of solutions out there.

There's a lot more sophisticated and precise tools out there that others have mentioned, but you can go a helluva long way with 2 aux sends - ER on one, Tail on the other.


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## wlotz (Mar 9, 2015)

kfirpr @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> Guys
> When you using VSS2 for early reflection do you cancel the early reflection on the tail reverb? I use B2 and cancel the diffusion knob (I'm pretty sure it's the ER)


Yep, I do it with ValhallaRoom, set Depth to 100%.


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## willbedford (Mar 9, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> you can go a helluva long way with 2 aux sends - ER on one, Tail on the other.



Be careful using two reverbs on separate sends (i.e. in parallel). Ideally you'd want the second reverb to also affect the first, otherwise it might sound like two recordings in different rooms being mixed together.


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## Harry (Mar 9, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> willbedford @ Mon Mar 09 said:
> 
> 
> > When using completely dry recordings, I often use two reverbs in series. One short and dense reverb to push the sound back (usually on each track), and another longer reverb to add the tail (on an aux return).
> ...


Can this be done with 2 instances of the same reverb - eg, 1 for the ER, and 1 for the tail, both set up up for sends? For example, I use Aether, which has ER and Tail handled in seperate sections - so I can turn one of those sections off in the above acenario.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 9, 2015)

Harry @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> Can this be done with 2 instances of the same reverb - eg, 1 for the ER, and 1 for the tail, both set up up for sends? For example, I use Aether, which has ER and Tail handled in seperate sections - so I can turn one of those sections off in the above acenario.



Sure, can't see why that wouldn't work.

I haven't really encountered any issues running the two sends in parallel btw - I guess series might be a little more purist, but controlling it would be lot more difficult.


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## Frederick Russ (Mar 9, 2015)

Another way is to create mono versions of the stereo instruments you're wanting to push back. Or narrow the stereo field of those instruments. Closer up - wider stereo field - further away, more narrow. Hope this helps.


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## willbedford (Mar 9, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> Harry @ Mon Mar 09 said:
> 
> 
> > I haven't really encountered any issues running the two sends in parallel btw - I guess series might be a little more purist, but controlling it would be lot more difficult.


You're probably right, there. Maybe it's not noticeable in a full mix. Using a send would save CPU power too.


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## Hannes_F (Mar 9, 2015)

Good suggestions all the way.


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## Jaap (Mar 9, 2015)

I am not the best expert on this, but I use the powerpan from the Vienna Suite, combined with the convolution reverb that is also included and that lets me place my instruments quite easily where I want them.


http://soniccontrol.tv/2011/03/08/vienna-suite-power-pan-strings-positions-a-professional-orchestration-review/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2011/03/08/vienn ... on-review/)
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Softwar ... enna_Suite


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## Mahlon (Mar 9, 2015)

10Dman,

The way I make very dry samples like VSL take on room characteristics and sit further back is:

1. Put an instance of Spaces on the Woodwinds bus as an "insert" effect, and use East West Hall 1.8 (I believe that's the one I usually go with for winds).

2. In the Spaces interface, turn up the Dry Signal knob all the way. You'll immediately hear that now the woodwinds are in a pretty convincing room. If you need them to be placed back a little further, just back off the Dry Signal knob so that there is less dry signal and more wet -- usually a couple of decimal points will do. You can leave the Wet Signal Knob alone. If you're signal seems too weak, you can bring back some level with the Input Signal knob. Playing with re pre-Delay knob can also set the signal back some, but I usually leave it as is for the patch.

3. Now that your woodwinds (or whatever) are sitting in a nice space an no longer sounding like the Salt Vampire from Star Trek has been feeding on them, this 'wetter, placed' signal can go to any buss or output for a bit of final tail if you need or want it. In Spaces, I often use the Hamburg patch as a final tail, backing off of it _quite_ a lot so that it's really heard only when things come to a complete stop.

You can do this with any of the patches in Spaces. Just because they are all convolution reverb patches doesn't mean you can't use them as tails or vice versa.

Other than that I agree with everyone else that good things to do to place instruments is manipulate their high end (less for farther away; more for closer) and their stereo width.

And then sometimes, you don't want or have to put much reverb on an instrument at all. For instance, Berlin Strings (if using the main mics with a little bit of close mic), I really don't need a reverb. They sound lush and in their own space (Teldex). Only thing I might give them is a tiny, tiny, tiny bit tail at the master bus on their way out into the world.

Same is true, almost with HB. It pretty dry, but id does have a lot of room information, so it doesn't take much added reverb to get them sitting real pretty.

Hope that helps. That's just way I'm doing now. Once you can hear that your manipulations _are_ making a difference, you start to understand how to use the equipment. This is why I love Spaces at the moment. It has it's own workflow, and I getting used it and sounding excellent.

Mahlon


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## arielblacksmith (Mar 9, 2015)

Hannes_F @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> Here is a nearly unknown secret: transients. Air eats transients.



Could you please explain more about this?? im curious


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 9, 2015)

Simply lower the direct signal and bring up the reverb!

That'll get you 95% of the way there.

There are a lot of great answers here, and everything people mention is important, but I think they're beyond the original question.


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## Mahlon (Mar 9, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> Simply lower the direct signal and bring up the reverb!
> 
> That'll get you 95% of the way there.
> 
> There are a lot of great answers here, and everything people mention is important, but I think they're beyond the original question.


*
^
^
^
*
What he said.


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## AR (Mar 9, 2015)

I use this combination... Waves S1 for narrowing the instruments.(Also to differ the positions of let's say Vio 1 against Vio 2 by panning them with the S1 Imager). Then 'm running a Stereodelay which delays on the opposite side of the seated instrument. (In Violin case on the right channel then). Then I'm checking if Hi Eqing will be neccessary. The intern Cubase channeleq is perfect as shows wave diagramms. Pretty useful. Then the whole channel goes to a send fx. I'm running VSS2 before B2. In Vss I regulate early reflections as well as air absorption (pretty useful knob!). I'm putting all instrument sections to their furthest seating point of their section. Though I don't do panning in VSS. Can get pretty messy and phasing. Sometimes I overdo it, if I need those drums really in the back. This method depends on the genre of the film. I use it for heavy scores like action, drama. In comedies I wanna keep it drier.
Btw, I also do that for surrround channels. 

Gotta check out SPAT since many here praise it.


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## Harry (Mar 15, 2015)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> To the OP - Spaces only provides tail reverb, the sound of the hall itself, so you will need something else to do the pushing back from the mic thing. If you already have a convolution reverb you'll hopefully have some suitable short impulse responses to get you going. I use an ER that was supplied with LASS, but there's tons of solutions out there.


I don't have Spaces, but from what I understand, when having the same instance of Spaces on different instruments (or stems) you can push things further back by lowering the pre-delay - is that not how it works?


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## Hannes_F (Mar 16, 2015)

@Harry
Pre-delay helps a bit but it is only one contribution amongst many others.


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## sinkd (Mar 16, 2015)

Frederick Russ @ Mon Mar 09 said:


> Another way is to create mono versions of the stereo instruments you're wanting to push back. Or narrow the stereo field of those instruments. Closer up - wider stereo field - further away, more narrow. Hope this helps.



This is very true. With VSL instruments, for example, slight noises in the legato transitions can pull the sound of the instrument out of it's space in the mix. If you narrow the stereo image first, then you have a better chance to keep it sitting where you want. Abrupt changes in the L/R stereo image correlate to "that must be closer to me" in terms of the way that we perceive the placement of the instrument.

Short, dense reverbs to me mean early reflection impulse responses, like those in the the Numerical Sound Forti/Serti collection. This is what (for me) places the instrument on stage, in place. After that you can use a lot of different options to produce the tail, but it will be clearest if you pay attention to a pre-delay that coincides with the end of the early reflection. Earnest's IRs make this fairly easy to accomplish because all of the ERs include this timing information. I cannot say enough good things about this way of mixing--though it requires an investment in the Vienna Suite plugin collection.

DS


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