# Soooo... Who received Hollywood Strings and wanna Share some home made demos?



## gsilbers (May 6, 2010)

if it was shipped may 1 then some here already received it right? 

can anyone share some home made demos? just simple stuff, not a "hollywood" demo /\~O :mrgreen:


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## midphase (May 6, 2010)

You have obviously not been reading the other thread.


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## gsilbers (May 6, 2010)

crap! another push?! i cant keep up. 

shiaa.. what happen ?


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## scottbuckley (May 6, 2010)

*cry*

-s


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## Dan Mott (May 6, 2010)

Nothing happened. Heehehe.


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## Hannes_F (May 6, 2010)

Wait, I will look into my crystal sphere ...

hmm ... I see a lot of dust .... but ... there, I see it ... whohoooo ... yes ... the image becomes clearer .... Hollywood Strings will solve all your strings problems ... forever ... whohoo ... it will automatically write masterworks for you .... mjaaaaa .... anything you throw at it will sound superb .... hoooooo .... you can't live one more single minute without it ..... yeaaaaaahhh ... it will boost your career like nothing else .... you need it now, now, NOW!!! o/~ o/~ o/~ 

Haha, anticipatory joy is the greatest joy, right? :mrgreen: 

This comes around every year or so, it's OK.


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## Dan Mott (May 6, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Fri May 07 said:


> Wait, I will look into my crystal sphere ...
> 
> hmm ... I see a lot of dust .... but ... there, I see it ... whohoooo ... yes ... the image becomes clearer .... Hollywood Strings will solve all your strings problems ... forever ... whohoo ... it will automatically write masterworks for you .... mjaaaaa .... anything you throw at it will sound superb .... hoooooo .... you can't live one more single minute without it ..... yeaaaaaahhh ... it will boost your career like nothing else .... you need it now, now, NOW!!! o/~ o/~ o/~
> 
> ...



Wrong.

I'm not excited for HS because i think ill be able to write amazing songs with it, nor is the solution, nor will it make me succeed. 

I'd like to inform you why i'm excited just to make it clear for you. Basically i'm obsessed with new gear and samples, it's like an illness. I'm also obsessed with strings, not to mention great sounding strings especially when it comes to samples. I also like to compose, therefor i get excited when i know i will get to compose with a brand new tool.

In conlusion, this would make a composer excited. Not everyone thinks that it'll literally change their life.

Thanks.


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## Hannes_F (May 7, 2010)

Ah, gear lust.

Not that I wouldn't understand ... :wink: 8)


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2010)

*The Three Ways to make H.S. Appear More Quickly*


1. Go outside at night, raise your arms to the sky, and howl at the moon.

2. Stomp your foot and speak petulantly, saying 'Where ARE they???'

3. Don your ruby slippers, click your heels three times, and repeat...

"I wish I had Hollywood Strings...I WISH I had.......'


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## Dan Mott (May 7, 2010)

If i was rich, i would buy a copy of HS for everyone on this forum.


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## JohnG (May 7, 2010)

I'm with Dan-Jay on this.

LASS already has solved a huge number of issues for me. It's the first orchestral sample library I've personally used since the original EWQLSO Platinum to bring something new, powerful and magic to the equation. If HS sounds as good as the demos indicate, it will solve another big chunk of "the problem."

So Dan-Jay's enthusiasm, as I don't believe he has LASS, springs from an understandable source.

And what is The Problem?

Part of it is "finishing" a piece so that it sounds great. But the other side, the bigger side for me, is the compositional one. When you're writing and you have an idea, get excited, maybe sing it, maybe play it on a (real) piano or guitar or flute, then go to the computer, anticipating greatness and...

...it sounds embarrassing. Limp, un-musical, noisy, ugly, and uninspiring. You realise that if you play it in that form for the director, or even your wife/girlfriend/mom, you will get at best pained acquiescence.

So having good-sounding samples is a non-trivial issue for composition. Moreover, given that even Carter Burwell and James Newton Howard have to demo their material before producers / studios etc. will sign off on it for recording with orchestra, a good-sounding demo can shorten a lot of otherwise painful conversations.


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

soo.. i have no idea of whats going on :( 

last thing i knew (last week i think) is that HS will start shipping on may 1. thats what it said on the main page right? 

i just wanted to listen to some home made demos and not the "maybe" heavily processed demos that who knows... maybe they where mixed and mastered by the greatest mixers who used hardware processing...etc.. simple passages can tell a lot in home made demos. or at least listen to a little more.


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## Hannes_F (May 7, 2010)

JohnG @ Fri May 07 said:


> And what is The Problem?
> 
> Part of it is "finishing" a piece so that it sounds great. But the other side, the bigger side for me, is the compositional one. When you're writing and you have an idea, get excited, maybe sing it, maybe play it on a (real) piano or guitar or flute, then go to the computer, anticipating greatness and...
> 
> ...



I hear you, John.
Did you ever try to route your strings writing to something else that is clearly a placeholder, but a good sounding one? Like, vibraphone samples, piano, harp? If you are recording live anyways that might do and is certainly less embarrassing than crazy sounding string samples. An equivalent to the good old piano playing for the director, if you want.

I don't have to serve a director but use that method all the time for my own composing (preserves my ears and keeps me in writing flow, instead of tweaking mode).


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## JohnG (May 7, 2010)

I definitely do that, Hannes; an excellent point. I've resorted to organ, choir, brass -- whatever sounds good and keeps me in "composing" mode, as you say.

The best thing I find is to sing / hum things. Otherwise, one runs a real risk of being trapped by the medium; if I play the piano, I write piano music. If I play guitar, guitar music.

So singing generally spares one from that hazard.

Ironically, "nearly good" samples worsen the problem. One still risks being trapped by a general sound, but without the beauty. EWQLSO helped enormously (actually brought me back to composing), and LASS adds a lot. Counting on HS for more.


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## Hannes_F (May 7, 2010)

JohnG @ Fri May 07 said:


> Ironically, "nearly good" samples worsen the problem.



Believe it or not but that was why my initial GPO time was when I was most happy with using samples. I _knew _I was not obliged to make it sound good by any scale ... it was a composition checking and bingo ... 

It is still a bit embarrassing to admit that here but that was how it was. I translated it in my head and added the sound in mind. Writing-wise I was maybe more up to task then than now.


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## Mike Connelly (May 7, 2010)

From Doug over at SO:



> We know you're excited, but no one will get anything until next week at the earliest, and only if you ordered in January. We have a lot of orders, they all have to be duplicated on hard drives, then sent to our fulfillment center (and European office) before they ship to any customer. We are getting them out as fast as possible.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - DR



That May 17 guess is looking better every day.


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## givemenoughrope (May 7, 2010)

Do you guys think that HS will sound much better or just much better out of the box? I'm not saying that doesn't matter. It looks like HS has a slew more articulations also. I really think it's weird that there aren't more demos up. 

I'm kinda hoping that LASS addition comes soon. Such a great library.


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## JohnG (May 7, 2010)

um, what's weird about the demos? the one I have listened to is long and covers a huge range of styles. they could have broken it up the music into eight or more segments, and it still would sound awesome.

Plus, since when did sounding good out of the box represent a negative? That's exactly why I'm getting it.


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## midphase (May 7, 2010)

"Do you guys think that HS will sound much better or just much better out of the box?"

Hard to tell right now. For me, part of the issue is that hearing demos made by TJ is not helpful to me. The reason why is because TJ can make a DX-7 sound like the London Symphony, he's so talented, and so light years beyond what most of us are doing that his demos don't tell me a whole lot about what sound someone like me will be able to get out of HS.

I need to hear demos by someone closer to my orchestral skills to get a real sense of what HS will do in my hands.

Remember the Symphobia demos? They actually posted how much time each cue took to write? That was amazingly helpful and got me to reach for my CC pretty fast as a result. I can totally relate to that type of information because more important that 100% realism to me is how quickly I can achieve a good sound with a particular product. This is why products like Symphobia, and pretty much everything that Spectrasonics make sell like hotcakes in the industry....because they allow composers to get to the finishline in style and on deadline. Nobody in the real world has the option of working on a 2 minute cue for weeks to tweak it just right.


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## Mike Connelly (May 7, 2010)

For such a big library, I'd expect more demos and more variety. Not to mention at least a couple demos that use EWQLSO for the rest of the orchestra.

Especially when EW themselves said there would be many more demos, even listing specific things that would be demonstrated.


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## givemenoughrope (May 7, 2010)

Like I said, or tried to say, sounding good out of the box is a GOOD thing. So, is having dry samples to customize the space of. However, if sounding good out of the box is the only real advantage or advancement...well, I guess it's hard to say ANYTHING until I'm actually sequencing/mixing with them. 

The demos sound great but all very big throughout, even the quieter passages of the first one. I thought I read Doug saying there would be a more intimate demo or something. For me, it didn't seem like they gave us enough to go on, especially for all-encompassing library with a million samples.

edit-(I didn't see the 2 above posts before posting this...I guess I'm not the onlt one who thinks these things...)


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## David Story (May 7, 2010)

Thanks Hannes, the crystal ball post is fun. And perspective. 
New samples will help some of us some of the time. But we dream they are The Answer! I hope HS is the answer to legato melodies and sweeping runs.


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

JohnG @ Fri May 07 said:


> um, what's weird about the demos? the one I have listened to is long and covers a huge range of styles. they could have broken it up the music into eight or more segments, and it still would sound awesome.
> 
> Plus, since when did sounding good out of the box represent a negative? That's exactly why I'm getting it.



i dunno, maybe its just me but i rather see how cinesamples does the demos with a video patch walkthrough and or demos by non developers. 

like if i buy a car i want to see more than the flashy commercials. if not i would if bought an ipad just for the ads and hype. which is why apple has stores where u can go and play with stuff to get a better feel for it. 

dropping $1500 might not be much for some but for me it is and im not going to buy that library unless u see or hear demos that are not by the folks at eastwest. better if i play with it if a friend has it. they could of hired John Kurlander to mix it and bob katz to master it and used hardware reverbs and hardware processing and other techniques not posible at my budget and use of this library., 

not saying the library sucks but until i get a better feel for it im not buying it for the hype. hype.. yes, because like the ipad u dont touch and use at the store you cannot posible know how exactly it is. and from one long demo in eastwest i think its about the same in the analogy. and i hope u understand the analogy and what im saying that from one commercial you want to spend $1500.. thats crazy, for all we know there is no library, just cool grafs and spcs, it was a song recorded live and they took all the preoder money and left the country... >8o talk about paranoid  
but something in between lies my point. and i do know that with software is always difficult.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 7, 2010)

> Hard to tell right now. For me, part of the issue is that hearing demos made by TJ is not helpful to me. The reason why is because TJ can make a DX-7 sound like the London Symphony, he's so talented, and so light years beyond what most of us are doing that his demos don't tell me a whole lot about what sound someone like me will be able to get out of HS.



Well in the video there are some passages that are played live by TBJ.


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Fri May 07 said:


> > Hard to tell right now. For me, part of the issue is that hearing demos made by TJ is not helpful to me. The reason why is because TJ can make a DX-7 sound like the London Symphony, he's so talented, and so light years beyond what most of us are doing that his demos don't tell me a whole lot about what sound someone like me will be able to get out of HS.
> 
> 
> 
> Well in the video there are some passages that are played live by TBJ.



running through high end processing gear and later enhanced in post. hollywood is smoke and mirrors!!! :mrgreen: 

just kidding , forgot about that, thanks.


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## midphase (May 7, 2010)

I'm sure there is a library...no doubt about that. East West is a reputable company with a lot of history.


However...

I do feel as though this HS announcement and final release has been handled a bit erratically. The lack of demos, the deletion of the Gold version, the lack of presence at NAMM (and hence in the press), the deletion of a 16bit version, the (seemingly) hurried release of PLAY 2.0, the odd communications (or lack of), and the baffling duplication problems which are leading to more delays.

It all adds up to a somewhat clunky rollout. We wouldn't really care that much if the product in question was Quantum Leap Basses 2....but this is supposed to be their flagship product, something that gets the white glove treatment through and through. It just feels...a bit weird.

I hope that HS is the best thing since sliced bread when it comes to sampled strings...but I'm more than happy to let others take the leap first on this one. If I end up buying HS, it will be after the initial buyer euphoria has died down, in a few months when hopefully people are posting real world results and impressions that are not filtered through a heavy set of "gear lust goggles"


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

midphase @ Fri May 07 said:


> I'm sure there is a library...no doubt about that. East West is a reputable company with a lot of history.
> 
> 
> However...
> ...



very good point.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 7, 2010)

EW acts more like an MMO company than a pro software development company. And I'm not saying that negatively or positively. There marketing strategies, PR, development process, etc is very like like an MMO company.


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## Mike Connelly (May 7, 2010)

Good points, but nothing too surprising considering that there have been similar (and in some cases far bigger) delays and issues with virtually every EW release since the first PLAY libraries.

I just don't get why they haven't learned from past debacles and just wait to announce the product until it is just about ready to ship.



midphase @ Fri May 07 said:


> If I end up buying HS, it will be after the initial buyer euphoria has died down, in a few months when hopefully people are posting real world results and impressions that are not filtered through a heavy set of "gear lust goggles"



...and when it is inevitably at a price lower than the initial sale. And when we're all on faster machines with way cheaper SSD drives.


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

well, those east west guys keep on doing a new sale every month. so who knows. maybe itll replace the EWQL in the complete composers collection.


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## dcoscina (May 7, 2010)

I think we should change this thread to "Who has gotten their shipment notice email yet? ".. Not me yet. :(

Any day though I expect.


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## Jack Weaver (May 7, 2010)

Gear Goggles!

LOL!! (at myself)

. :lol:


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

dcoscina @ Fri May 07 said:


> I think we should change this thread to "Who has gotten their shipment notice email yet? ".. Not me yet. :(
> 
> Any day though I expect.



as the thread starter and OP (which gives me no authority whatsoever  

i say im down with that! 
 


seriously... im out of the loop and cant find it on other threads.. 

is there a new release date and which one is it?


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 7, 2010)

gsilbers @ Fri May 07 said:


> dcoscina @ Fri May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I think we should change this thread to "Who has gotten their shipment notice email yet? ".. Not me yet. :(
> ...



They said to not expect any shipment notices until maybe next week I think. They had an HD issue with distribution.


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

thx


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 7, 2010)

To clarify:

From SO:

"We know you're excited, but no one will get anything until next week at the earliest, and only if you ordered in January. We have a lot of orders, they all have to be duplicated on hard drives, then sent to our fulfillment center (and European office) before they ship to any customer. We are getting them out as fast as possible.

Cheers,

- DR "


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## OvaltineJenkins (May 7, 2010)

The bad news is we have artists running the company.

But the good news is we have artists running the company. I have high hopes for HS...can't wait hear more.


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

OvaltineJenkins @ Fri May 07 said:


> The bad news is we have artists running the company.
> 
> But the good news is we have artists running the company. I have high hopes for HS...can't wait hear more.



eheh.. cool!

just watch out and dont head the same direction Audio impression did (also ran by artists)


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 7, 2010)

Except that um...well..they apparently didn't have the ears They had the method down, but their ears were screwing with them.


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## NYC Composer (May 7, 2010)

JohnG @ Fri May 07 said:


> I'm with Dan-Jay on this.
> 
> LASS already has solved a huge number of issues for me. It's the first orchestral sample library I've personally used since the original EWQLSO Platinum to bring something new, powerful and magic to the equation. If HS sounds as good as the demos indicate, it will solve another big chunk of "the problem."
> 
> ...



John, on the other hand, you also have EWQLSO Platinum, and have managed to muddle through.

Additionally, some people think TJ could use a Proteus and turn out awe-inspiring demos...so....

Yes. If you're a good writer, the best samples will make you sound better. If you're a great writer, you'll likely sound great using inferior tools. If you're a compelled writer, you'll use what you have, and devil take the hindmost.


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2010)

btw. 

isnt there too many strings for east west? id like to get the EWQL platinum but want the HS instead for strings.


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## Dan Mott (May 8, 2010)

We all basically want to manipulate what we hear in our heads. We might think of a melody during the day, record it on our phones, then rush home to write it with our samples. Many times i've scrapt worked that i've made because of the 'sound' it's self.

I think it's all about the sound if you ask me. If i wrote a chord that i liked with a library i didn't really like the overall sound of, then i heard it with a library that sounded amazing to me, i'd feel way more emotive about it and it would be something i'd want to keep.

I ordered HS because IMO i don't like the sound of EWQLSO (strings). It took me hours and hours of fiddling and writing to finally realise it. I pretty much tweaked untill i could manipulate the articulations as close to the real thing as possible which sounded fine to me, but even though my manipulating was fine to my ears, i still didn't like the overall result, hence that i had no inspiration to write for strings anymore which i then started layering Omni with SO for a different sound.

All this has alot to do with true legato and dynamic layers aswell. SD2 is one of my favourite libraries from EW because there's just so many dynamic layers that it's not difficult to make the drums sound good and also realistic. I think the dynamic layers play a huge part when it comes to manipulating. I was exciting when i heard the short notes in HS have dynamic layers because in SO they do not and this it was makes them pop out when trying to play quiet passages.

Someone mentioned this before, but if you install PLAY 2.0 and select the HS library, you can play with the HS interface........ wicked!!


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## stevenson-again (May 8, 2010)

> Additionally, some people think TJ could use a Proteus and turn out awe-inspiring demos...so....



except that he would still be limited by what a proteus could achieve musically. the difference between TJ and the rest of us is that he can determine what the inherent musical characteristics of a library are and exploit them to make them sound fantastic. and that's what john is talking about - i am sure of it - is that he is always looking for something that does not limit his musical vision because it does not have the facility to realise them.

in fairness, this applies to live players as well. i am highly conscious of the players i write for when writing for live groups or individuals. they can do things that samples can't and unless they are players of the finest calibre, they often can't pull off what samples can really easily. so you write for what you have - but ultimately we all aspire to write for the best there is, whether it is samples or live musicians, and we long not to be limited by whatever realises our music. thus, HS can be a source of excitement, because by all accounts it is the most detailed and sophisticated library of anything yet.


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## JohnG (May 8, 2010)

Bottom line for me: If HS marries the functionality and sound of SILK and SD2, plus the legato in SILK, and the sweet sound that the demo displays, it will offer a huge new range of possibilities for virtual scoring.

Not to take anything away from Thomas -- he's a great writer -- but to some extent the HS demo, at least the 9 minutes or so one that I've been auditioning, is really just "regular" music, of a stripe that one can hear (and read, if you buy the score) in a lot of John Williams' music.

Accordingly, I doubt that there is some top-secret, inimitable approach to the technology that Thomas has. His work sounds simply musical, as though he's imbibed a tremendous amount and celebrating what he knows, with his own flair and personality coming out. While I realise the expression "simply musical" is an oxymoron, I hope the point is clear.

Thomas writes fast, from what I've heard. I don't have any private information about how long he spent on the demos, but I don't think he's an endless polisher by habit, so I'm drawing a bold inference from that with, admittedly, no verified fact!

Anyway, I've already ordered and am looking forward to incorporating that sound into a current score, which needs a light, sweet, "beautiful" sound from the strings. I think I hear that in HS.

Look, I think one can get a good sound out of EWQLSO Platinum, but there are limits to what can be achieved. The libraries coming out now are offering new ideas and deeper approaches, so even more can be done.

Besides, I have SILK and SD2, both produced by Nick Phoenix, and they are absolute magic. I am inferring from those libraries that Nick's ear is as good as ever and the usability has improved as well. As with Eric Persing's original 16 bit Roland Orchestral library, some of the imperfections in the samples make the end result more, not less realistic, so those issues have never bothered me with EWQLSO.


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## snowleopard (May 8, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Thu May 06 said:


> Basically i'm obsessed with new gear and samples, it's like an illness.


I think I can speak for about 90% of the people on here when I say I completely sympathizer with you. 

I've probably spent more money than my house costs on gear over the years. 

~o)


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## Dan Mott (May 9, 2010)

I still have a feeling that we might being seeing a litle bit more delay on HS. I'm in group one and have yet to receive a notice if my order has shipped or not. 


The May 15th release was a great guess.


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## NYC Composer (May 9, 2010)

I'm sorry, but I disagree with the general premise of the last few posts. Will a better library make things sound better-absolutely. Will they help you realize your writing in a better sounding way? You betcha. 

I stand by the theory that if one can write, one can write. You don't need the best samples to write. You need the best samples you can afford to sound better. If none of you have work you're proud of that uses 10-15 year old samples, then we differ.

Hey, I'm a complete gearslut! I have been for over 30 years! That still doesn't obviate the point.


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## FireGS (May 9, 2010)

Dan-Jay, when was your preorder date? Did you pay with PayPal?

Mine was Jan 17th, and no ship notice yet, but Doug said they wouldnt get a single order out till early this coming week at the earliest. So, it shouldn't have shipped yet. However, it might take yours longer due to being in Australia. =\

FWIW..


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 9, 2010)

> You don't need the best samples to write. You need the best samples you can afford to sound better



What about all the articulations that otherwise aren't available or don't sound realistic enough? That can effect your writing.


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## FireGS (May 9, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sun May 09 said:


> > You don't need the best samples to write. You need the best samples you can afford to sound better
> 
> 
> 
> What about all the articulations that otherwise aren't available or don't sound realistic enough? That can effect your writing.



Have to agree here. Theres a reason I never use string runs - its never realistic.


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## Dan Mott (May 9, 2010)

FireGS @ Mon May 10 said:


> Dan-Jay, when was your preorder date? Did you pay with PayPal?
> 
> Mine was Jan 17th, and no ship notice yet, but Doug said they wouldnt get a single order out till early this coming week at the earliest. So, it shouldn't have shipped yet. However, it might take yours longer due to being in Australia. =\
> 
> FWIW..



Mine was Jan 10th.

Well, that means that when Doug said they were shipping tomorrow, which was like 3 days ago, it must of not. Hmmm..... Oh well, i'll just wait and see.


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## Dan Mott (May 10, 2010)

"Why is it that the Next Big Thing, the be- all and end-all library, is going to make ( insert your name here) a genius?"


For heavens sake, this is not what we're implying. Did we say it will make as a genius?? .... No.

It's about the sound, and that's what it's all about for me and it's what i think most of us are implying on 'this forum. Sound makes a difference. it doesn't make us a genius', i'd call it more as in we start liking our work a little bit more than we used to. We start succeeding in what we as composeres have always wanted to manipulate with a new up to date tool that we're allowed to be excited about. Yes, HS will have it's limits too since there's no perfect sample library out there to master the all end all realism, but my goodness, i think for people like me that have been using SO, then upgrade to HS will have that little more inspiration when writing and i believe that i will. It will be a big jump, and yes, it most likely will make some of our compositions come alive more which is the whole purpose of why this library was created in the first place. New technology, new tools which is just like out in the real world, we build bigger and better tools to make our life easier which would make sense.

We all want to be satisfied. I mean look what we have, measuered tremolo, dynamic layers for short notes, true legato, a better IMO sound overall, speed control with short notes, all important articulations spread through out 'all' sections, 5 mic positions, the fact that it was recorded in a studio makes us have more flexibility over the sound and much more. I personally think i will have a much more inspiration time working with HS than SO. HS will not make me a genius, but maybe it will make me like my work a little more, or atleast make me satisfied because i personally just cannot get what i want out of SO even though i do a decent job getting the strings to sound as close to a real performance as possible by using alot of references, not to mention i play parts on the violin before i write, i still don't like the 'sound'

Ok, so i got annoyed at that statement and i'd like to say that we're not implying this at all. I'm exciting because i love gear and i love strings the most. It's normal for one to be excited about a new tool that has a massive improvement in sound and articulations which is infact what makes us composers excited because we cannot wait to include it in our work. If we can afford a library that we feel is an upgrade and is what we need, then why not?? We're not just going to not buy it because we are trying to prove to everyone that we can be geniuses with outdated libraries, what's the point?

To conclude. This library will not make us write better which i'm sure isn't the point of why everyone would like a library like this. It's the fact that it would atleast make what we're trying to do sound better and be alot more inspiration to us as a tool than past libraries.


Peace.


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## NYC Composer (May 10, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Mon May 10 said:


> "Why is it that the Next Big Thing, the be- all and end-all library, is going to make ( insert your name here) a genius?"
> 
> 
> For heavens sake, this is not what we're implying. Did we say it will make as a genius?? .... No.
> ...



'We'? :::amused:::

You need to chill and read the point I actually made. 'Peace' to you as well. This concludes our elucidating debate.


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## noiseboyuk (May 10, 2010)

Ah, another "library X won't make you a better composer" debate.

Thought experiment. You are John Williams. But due to a bizarre warp in spacetime, the only option open to you is to use a Casio VL-Tone. Sure the tunes and arrangement will still be great... but don't cha think something may get lost along the way?

You CAN make something - a novelty pop song - with VL-Tone... just play to its strengths.

The VL Tone is one end of the spectrum, HS and LASS the other for now. No tool will turn a Tool into a composer, but they do help people sound better. Lesser tools can also work wonders in the right hands, and even imperfections can work positively sometimes. But isn't that about all that can be said?!


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## Ed (May 10, 2010)

Personally good samples helps me learn, so yes better samples do help make me a better composer.


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## Justus (May 10, 2010)

My believe is that good sounds inspire to write good music.
That can be your new Grand Piano or your new Symphobia, which both can inspire me write a new piece. What about you?


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## Dan Mott (May 10, 2010)

NY Composer: Were you amused by my post?? If you were would you like to share??

I'm chilled, i just wanted to state my point about this certain topic. That is all.


----------



## Ashermusic (May 10, 2010)

Ed @ Mon May 10 said:


> Personally good samples helps me learn, so yes better samples do help make me a better composer.



Could you expand on how you "learn" from good samples? It is an interesting concept.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (May 10, 2010)

Good samples are inspiring. They make me want to use them in a musical context. Bad samples make me want to post on VI-Control. :wink:


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 10, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 09 said:


> And why is it that to this day, Otis Redding and a few out of tune horns move me more than 99% of the orchestral music I've heard? The poor craftsman blames his tools.



I'd argue that a few out of tune live horns are more often than not a better tool than many sample libraries that are available.

And while tools can be an excuse for lack of talent, there's no question that they are a factor in the end result. Take any composer and have him do one midi mockup with the latest and greatest libraries and another with ones that are 15 years old, and you don't think there will be a big difference between the two?

And I agree with those who have said that better sample libraries don't just help the sound, but have the potential to help achieve better composition and orchestration.


----------



## Ashermusic (May 10, 2010)

And I agree with those who have said that better sample libraries don't just help the sound, but have the potential to help achieve better composition and orchestration.[/quote]

Yes and no. Better samples (whatever that means as it is all one's perception) certainly do inspire us and therefore contribute to a better composition. Better samples however do not teach you how to write contrapuntally well. They do not teach you harmony. 

Also, the best MIDI mockup guys are not necessarily the best composers. They are two related yet distinct skills.


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 10, 2010)

I knew I should have explained better, I was looking at it from the opposite direction. Of course better samples won't "teach" you to write better.

I was talking about composers who *do* know how to write well who know certain techniques but avoid using them because the available samples don't execute them well. Basically, "I always wanted to write X but I didn't have the samples to pull it off until now". There are many cases where composers either avoid certain things or write them but hide them with other orchestration - with better samples that do those things better, it gives the freedom to stop avoiding or hiding.

I'd agree that midi mockup and composing are two different skill sets. But I'd argue that regardless of which of those two is a person's strength, they are going to produce better results either way with better samples. The poor craftsman and the great craftsman both benefit from having better tools.


----------



## JohnG (May 10, 2010)

Ashermusic @ 10th May 2010 said:


> Better samples however do not teach you how to write contrapuntally well. They do not teach you harmony.



I differ somewhat on this point, as I actually do think better samples indirectly can "teach" you to write certain kinds of passages. Coincidentally, this is especially true for contrapuntal writing, because you can actually hear the parts. I've been writing a contrapuntal-ish bit to a cue this weekend that sounds pretty good on LASS, but without the legato, would sound too busy or distracting or wouldn't speak properly.

Put differently, the old orchestral samples of 10-12 years ago were pretty good at a relatively narrow range of things. But that really limited one's scope for composing if the samples weren't to be replaced, or if approval of one's cues depended on how the demo sounded.

So I do think that, to the extent a new sample facilitates a kind of writing that was unavailable previously (unavailable defined as "will sound so bad to the director's girlfriend that you will have to throw out the passage"), it opens a new door that allows one to learn some kinds of writing that otherwise would require live players.

If only we had an orchestra waiting around, we could learn better still, but in its absence, etc.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 10, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Mon May 10 said:


> NY Composer: Were you amused by my post?? If you were would you like to share??
> 
> I'm chilled, i just wanted to state my point about this certain topic. That is all.



I don't want to leave this on a bad note, DJ. I was amused by the 'we' because it seemed to me you were assuming the weight of collective opinions would give more credence to your posts. This cuts no ice with me whatsoever. 

Anyway, I've heard your point. We see things differently. To state our division as cogently as possible, you think better samples make for better writing. I disagree. I think better samples make writing _sound_ better, but don't necessarily lead to better wriiting. You disagree. I think that at this point, we're just re-stating our points in different ways. 

Do you feel heard? Shall we leave it here, shake hands and agree to disagree?


----------



## Jack Weaver (May 10, 2010)

My apologies for going OT here - in this case back On Topic. 

I received Fedex confirmation of my HS shipping today.

.


----------



## FireGS (May 10, 2010)

When was your preorder date? You might be one of the firsts..


----------



## Jack Weaver (May 10, 2010)

I pre-ordered about six minutes after sales opened. 

.


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 10, 2010)

So you should have it tomorrow? Should be fun, be sure to let us know how it is.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 10, 2010)

and share a home-made demo!!

:::bringing things pointedly OT::: ( in this case, On Topic)


----------



## dcoscina (May 10, 2010)

Received my shipping confirmation today. Should have it in a couple days.


----------



## FireGS (May 10, 2010)

Dont they always ship overnight?


----------



## Pochflyboy (May 10, 2010)

FireGS @ Mon May 10 said:


> Dont they always ship overnight?



2-day


----------



## FireGS (May 10, 2010)

Aw whut? Since when? Every time I ordered it was ALWAYS overnight. Even replacement discs were overnighted. Why skimp now?

Pochflyboy, did you get your tracking #?


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 10, 2010)

Probably because they're throwing in free shipping this time around.


----------



## FireGS (May 10, 2010)

Shipping is always free, but it comes out of the total you pay. IE:

Subtotal	$1,495.00
Discount	$0.00
Coupon saving	$0.00 ()
Shipping cost	$24.75
TOTAL	$1,519.75

Not free shipping.


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 10, 2010)

So did they switch from overnight to two day shipping but not drop the price? Or is it just more because a drive is heavier?

I could never understand having expensive/fast shipping as the only option.


----------



## FireGS (May 10, 2010)

No idea yet. Ill know when I get a tracking number.


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## dcoscina (May 10, 2010)

Got my tracking number. It's on it's waaaaay!!!!


----------



## Dan Mott (May 10, 2010)

Looks like mine shipped today and will arrive this week....... :s soo confused!


----------



## Dan Mott (May 10, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Tue May 11 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Mon May 10 said:
> 
> 
> > NY Composer: Were you amused by my post?? If you were would you like to share??
> ...





"you think better samples make for better writing"


Maybe we should end it with the fact that you obviosly didn't read everything i said. "To conclude. This library will not make us write better" 

Not only that, i said 'we' because from what i read, most people are implying it from what they're saying.

I don't think i will shake your hand actually, there's clearly sarcasm in your tone and i don't like it ("Do you feel heard?")

I'm not here to get credence, i'm here to talk about samples and that's it.


----------



## dcoscina (May 10, 2010)

Mine is already in the Fed Ex facility in Toronto. Tomorrow is delivery date. Trying not to freak out with excitement. Actually, I really need to clear up some space on my HDs before tomorrow....


----------



## Christian Marcussen (May 10, 2010)

I would be freaking out if I were you.


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 10, 2010)

> don't think i will shake your hand actually, there's clearly sarcasm in your tone and i don't like it ("Do you feel heard?")



I don't see how you viewed that as sarcasm.


----------



## Dan Mott (May 10, 2010)

Maybe smart alec does more justice to that. As you cannot see that. "do you feel heard" in others words, do you feel everyone is listening to you Dan, do you feel satisified, do you feel everything thinks you're right?


----------



## NYC Composer (May 10, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Mon May 10 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-Jay @ Mon May 10 said:
> ...



You're completely wrong, I was being totally sincere, and I'm sure you know that 'tone' is not always possible to discern in the typed word.

If that's the way you wish to leave it. however, so be it.


----------



## Dan Mott (May 10, 2010)

Ok, sorry.

It's true that you cannot tell how people are speaking in text. I was mistaken.


----------



## Ed (May 11, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon May 10 said:


> Bad samples make me want to post on VI-Control. :wink:



Well f&#k you too bitch! :D


----------



## NYC Composer (May 11, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Tue May 11 said:


> Ok, sorry.
> 
> It's true that you cannot tell how people are speaking in text. I was mistaken.



And I'm sorry if I offended you. On we go.


----------



## Ashermusic (May 11, 2010)

Ed @ Mon May 10 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon May 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Mon May 10 said:
> ...



That makes a lot of sense and you explained it well.


----------



## JohnG (May 11, 2010)

I agree. Very articulate, Ed.


----------



## dcoscina (May 11, 2010)

I'm on my way to pick up Hollywood Strings at the local Fed Ex as I type this. Well, after I type this email. 

Will try to do a quick demo by this evening.


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## james7275 (May 11, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue May 11 said:


> I'm on my way to pick up Hollywood Strings at the local Fed Ex as I type this. Well, after I type this email.
> 
> Will try to do a quick demo by this evening.



Yes, if you can do a demo by tonight that would be great! I havn't ordered HS but I'm dying to hear a user demo.

thanks :D


----------



## Mr. Anxiety (May 11, 2010)

Oh and I'll take a side of fries with that demo too, please! lol


Mr A.


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## Mike Connelly (May 11, 2010)

It was funny to see Doug try and talk people out of posting demos too fast on the SO boards. Bring it on.


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## Dan Mott (May 11, 2010)

David (and others), learn all the features of the collection before publishing your work, HS has a lot of options to achieve realism for any style of writing, but like all things, you need to learn how to use them."

The manual is "essential" reading, and we will publish video tutorials shortly as well.

Enjoy! (said by Doug over at soundsonline)

Basically telling somebody to learn before posting their 'own' work which seemed very odd and lack of confidence. 

Is this sus to you?? Ahhh... i'm confused.

ok ok ok, in other words.... he;s scared that he will loose sales because he him self is worried that someone won't do a good job with the demo.


----------



## José Herring (May 11, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Tue May 11 said:


> It was funny to see Doug try and talk people out of posting demos too fast on the SO boards. Bring it on.



All that means is that they should put up some official demos now. The two TJ demos just aren't convincing enough for me. I need to hear some other stuff before I can pull the trigger on this one. 

best,

Jose


----------



## IvanP (May 11, 2010)

Dcoscina, I guess you won't be reading this, but you could do a live podcast while you try out yourself for the 1st time the different patches...


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## Mike Connelly (May 11, 2010)

Now that it's shipping, I'd love to hear some demos of simple soloed lines so that people can do comparisons of the same part with other string libraries. If someone is up for it, it would be cool to even post the midi files to make comparisons even easier (although obviously you'd want to tweak them for each library).


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## dcoscina (May 11, 2010)

Mine is in my car trunk. I am at work so I will have to wait until I get home to install it. I have half a mind to run it as is off the drive it came with and back up the files to another drive since this WD drive has the same specs as the 7200rpm drives I already have installed in my computer.


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## dcoscina (May 11, 2010)

IvanP @ Tue May 11 said:


> Dcoscina, I guess you won't be reading this, but you could do a live podcast while you try out yourself for the 1st time the different patches...



I could try that but if HS uses as many system resources as it is supposed to, I think I might just load up one patch at a time and go through it.


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## IvanP (May 11, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue May 11 said:


> I could try that but if HS uses as many system resources as it is supposed to, I think I might just load up one patch at a time and go through it.



Sounds good enough to me o-[][]-o


----------



## Christian Marcussen (May 11, 2010)

IvanP @ Tue May 11 said:


> dcoscina @ Tue May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I could try that but if HS uses as many system resources as it is supposed to, I think I might just load up one patch at a time and go through it.
> ...



+1


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## Jack Weaver (May 11, 2010)

Creative packaging...

.


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## FireGS (May 11, 2010)

Take pix!!!!!


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## José Herring (May 11, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue May 11 said:


> Mine is in my car trunk. I am at work so I will have to wait until I get home to install it. I have half a mind to run it as is off the drive it came with and back up the files to another drive since this WD drive has the same specs as the 7200rpm drives I already have installed in my computer.



Leave work and go home and give us and update! Damn it man this is important!

:D


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## midphase (May 11, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue May 11 said:


> Mine is in my car trunk. I am at work so I will have to wait until I get home to install it. I have half a mind to run it as is off the drive it came with and back up the files to another drive since this WD drive has the same specs as the 7200rpm drives I already have installed in my computer.



Be careful, someone from around here might stalk you and break into your car!


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 11, 2010)

damnit dcoscina the hell are you doing fiddling around with that nancy boy @#$%# get your arse home and pop that thing in you're the first human to have the most awaited library of all time, do you know how many people here are counting on you? Quit your job if you have to, and fire that sucker up!










(kidding. :mrgreen: )


----------



## Vision (May 11, 2010)

I received my package today about 2pm ET from fed ex. Started loading around 2:10pm via firewire 4.0. Think I've got about an hour to go at this point. 

Don't know how much music I'll be doing later today because I've been under the weather. But, I'll attempt something preliminary/basic to share, especially if I'm feeling better.


----------



## FireGS (May 11, 2010)

Got my number. Jan 17.


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## José Herring (May 11, 2010)

Sorry you're not feeling well....but, you're gonna have to push yourself man! Take one for the team. Get yourself out of bed and give us a demo ASAP.

:mrgreen:


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## james7275 (May 11, 2010)

This has got to be a blessing and a curse for David since he is the first to receive it. Everbody's jealous that he got it first; but for alot of people (excluding myself) so much is riding on this first demo...no pressure David :mrgreen:

edit: looks like somebody else might be the first.


----------



## Vision (May 11, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue May 11 said:


> Sorry you're not feeling well....but, you're gonna have to push yourself man! Take one for the team. Get yourself out of bed and give us a demo ASAP.
> 
> :mrgreen:



lol.. I'll dig deep Jose. 

I usually browse through patches for a while. So the others may pull out demos before I do. But we'll see. It'll be interesting to see how long these patches take to load. Not to mention how my CPU will fare. I'm using a Late 2008 Mac Pro 3.2ghz Octo 16gigs ram, and I expect to get good to great performance. But, my internal 7200rpm drive may be the killer. We shall see..


----------



## dcoscina (May 11, 2010)

Mine's loaded and I'm playing it in stand-alone. Nice. But like LASS, this is not plug n play. You need to get a grasp of all the controllers and how they affect the sound. The samples themselves are really nice. Clear. Rich. Expressive. 

Don't regret for a second buying LASS but I'm also glad I sprung for this library. I can see using both in tandem in the future. The legatos are really RICH.


----------



## requiem_aeternam7 (May 11, 2010)

dcoscina @ Tue May 11 said:


> Mine's loaded and I'm playing it in stand-alone. Nice. But like LASS, this is not plug n play. You need to get a grasp of all the controllers and how they affect the sound. The samples themselves are really nice. Clear. Rich. Expressive.
> 
> Don't regret for a second buying LASS but I'm also glad I sprung for this library. I can see using both in tandem in the future. The legatos are really RICH.



Ok so I'll be the first dirtbag to ask. 


LASS VS. HS?


What's better. 

POINT BLANK. 

Do it.

/\~O =o


----------



## FireGS (May 11, 2010)

I'm one of those lucky enough to not have Hollywood Strings or LA Scoring Strings.

I have Hollywood Scoring Strings.


----------



## james7275 (May 11, 2010)

I know you've got alot more exploring to do, but does it live up to all the hype so far David, just on first impressions alone? I was expecting you to be totally blown away. 

I guess when he said he doesn't regret buying lass that answers your question.


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 11, 2010)

That's funny, I'd say other than taking the time to layer together the divisi sections, LASS was pretty plug and play for me. Using mod wheel for dynamics isn't exactly brain surgery.

Looking at the manual for HS, there are a few patches that are fairly complicated, but most seem pretty straightforward. Most short articulations don't have anything extra, and there are a number of sustains and legatos that have expression pedal and mod wheel or just the latter.


----------



## dcoscina (May 11, 2010)

To be honest- the short articulations are much better than EWQLSO but I don't think they are significantly better than LASS. 

The legato patches though...holy fucking shit. Sorry to swear but Jesus God are they good. I was wondering myself if I fell for the hype but nope= this is the real deal. I just played through on the Cello Legato/Violins combi patch and it freakin rocked my world. I felt like I was sitting in a real string section. Honestly guys, I know I can be over enthusiastic about libraries but this patch alone just made the $$$ I spent worth it in spades. The level of detail and expression I can get using pedals for both CC1 and CC11 really knock it out of the park. 

I gotta record something and post it here..I know Doug said to get more familiar with it but this is seriously a beautiful library and I want to show you guys how gorgeous it sounds.


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 11, 2010)

Are there more instrument patches than listed in the manual? It mentions that there are four thousand instruments, which seems like it can't be right. It would be interesting to see the full list, odd that the manual doesn't include that or have a separate document with the list.

So bounce out something with those legato patches so we can take a listen.


----------



## james7275 (May 11, 2010)

You just sent shivers down my spine with what you just said! Now were talkin! 

Btw how is your computer holding up? how many patches can you load at one time until you start getting dropouts?


----------



## requiem_aeternam7 (May 11, 2010)

james7275 @ Tue May 11 said:


> You just sent shivers down my spine with what you just said! Now were talkin!
> 
> Btw how is your computer holding up? how many patches can you load at one time until you start getting dropouts?



lol same here...


Come on Dave...be a good lad now and give us some demos.................................

*sits salivating impatiently*


----------



## dcoscina (May 11, 2010)

well, I don't have a Hollywood Strings demo but I did add a new piece in the Compositions forum. It's an un-assuming little piece. Yeah I know, it's not cool to plug my own stuff but what the hell....


----------



## choc0thrax (May 11, 2010)

Stop bothering Dave. Herr Rogers has warned all customers not to post demos until they can use the library sufficiently well. Expect some demos hopefully in a few weeks.


----------



## Ed (May 11, 2010)

josejherring @ Tue May 11 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Tue May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > It was funny to see Doug try and talk people out of posting demos too fast on the SO boards. Bring it on.
> ...



I remember the old Roland, Ultimate Strings stuff he had, and I think it still sounds great lol


----------



## Daniel James (May 11, 2010)

Not sure I am a big fan of developers telling paying customers what they can and cant post.

Besides I know alot of people would like to hear an out of the box demo, even if its just to know how much work is involved in getting it to sit right.

I say post all you want...you paid for it.

Dan


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 11, 2010)

I thought Choco was joking, although I could be wrong.

Obviously, people can post whatever they want...at least outside of the EW forums. And I totally agree with you about "out of the box", I'm much more interested in hearing simple exposed phrases of the various instruments and articulations than more giant full pieces.


----------



## choc0thrax (May 11, 2010)

Nah, I wasn't joking. (o) http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=28531

o-[][]-o


----------



## Mike Connelly (May 11, 2010)

I knew that he said that...I thought you were joking about actually doing what he requested.


----------



## requiem_aeternam7 (May 11, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Tue May 11 said:


> Stop bothering Dave. Herr Rogers has warned all customers not to post demos until they can use the library sufficiently well. Expect some demos hopefully in a few weeks.


lol what the hell? screw him, he can't stop anyone from posting anything they paid through the nose for this stuff. he needs to mind his own business.


----------



## requiem_aeternam7 (May 11, 2010)

just want to add, that's incredibly pompous. Doug Rogers has got to be kidding, I just went to the link and it sounded like a 'command' or directive rather than a pleasant request. Yes certain exotic car companies like Mclaren won't sell you their F1 until you've passed a special driving course of theirs to make sure you don't crash it and ruin their reputation but that's the whole point they make you learn it PRIOR to selling you the car and taking your money. In this case Doug Rogers has ALREADY taken Dave and everyone else's money who purchased HS so he no longer has any right to tell anyone anything. 
Plus if it wasn't for their utterly LAUGHABLE inability to post their own demos other than some over the top thing by TJB like 4 months ago, we wouldn't have to be rabidly salivating here waiting for naked user demos. 

I say post away lads!


----------



## givemenoughrope (May 11, 2010)

Yea, I'd like to just hear someone go through the patches, crossfades, etc. as opposed to a composition. That's much more helpful. 

How does the legato stack up to LASS?


----------



## José Herring (May 11, 2010)

Ed @ Tue May 11 said:


> josejherring @ Tue May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Connelly @ Tue May 11 said:
> ...



Yeah I think I heard those a long time ago. They are great. I just think the 2 demos he did for HS aren't enough to give me enough information on the practical use of the library. Not that they didn't sound good. They do.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 11, 2010)

Doug is probably being incredibly sensitive to the community by encouraging them not to ruin their reputations by posting inferior demos of their work, whilst coincidentally using his product. :wink:


----------



## choc0thrax (May 11, 2010)

Okay, so I've decided I'm not abiding by Doug's no posting demos rule. Here's my first out of the box HS demo. You can probably tell it needs some finessing. Maybe some EQ. Need to smooth out some of the attacks, etc.


http://www.box.net/shared/a8usm77lu9


----------



## Daniel James (May 11, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Tue May 11 said:


> Okay, so I've decided I'm not abiding by Doug's no posting demos rule. Here's my first out of the box HS demo. You can probably tell it needs some finessing. Maybe some EQ.
> 
> 
> http://www.box.net/shared/a8usm77lu9



It all makes sense now!


----------



## Ed (May 11, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Tue May 11 said:


> Okay, so I've decided I'm not abiding by Doug's no posting demos rule. Here's my first out of the box HS demo. You can probably tell it needs some finessing. Maybe some EQ.
> 
> 
> http://www.box.net/shared/a8usm77lu9



SO AWESOME!! Best strings ever! 

:shock:

Also, it seems Simon was wrong I totally hear the air in HS.


----------



## NYC Composer (May 11, 2010)

Ed @ Tue May 11 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue May 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, so I've decided I'm not abiding by Doug's no posting demos rule. Here's my first out of the box HS demo. You can probably tell it needs some finessing. Maybe some EQ.
> ...



Why, those ARE the BEST doggone strings ( ok, stop me now)


----------



## Ed (May 11, 2010)

Folmann @ Tue May 11 said:


> Ed ... ur not listening to the podcast ...



I actually stopped it to listen to that great demo  still listening o/~


----------



## Udo (May 11, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Wed May 12 said:


> Doug is probably being incredibly sensitive to the community by encouraging them not to ruin their reputations by posting inferior demos of their work, whilst coincidentally using his product. :wink:



He's so concerned that from now on, major releases may only be bought and used after passing an audition


----------



## Dan Mott (May 11, 2010)

I think what Doug said is ridiculous. There's no rules, not to mention what he said wasn't infact a rule and people can do whatever they want. If i had HS right now, i'd already be posting requested examples that people have been wanting, such as what it sounds like outside of the box, ect, ect. I mean, what's Doug going to go if you post something on this forum especially?? Nothing.


----------



## nikolas (May 11, 2010)

Jezz Dan... relax. The guy (Doug!) just is hoping that the anticipation won't create some abominations... that's all. It's not unreasonable what he said and further more Dave has broken this golden rule and now has to pay the consequences! 

Dave: You will suffer eternal damnation by beta testing constantly the prereleases of the new PLAY libraries! Bouahahahahahaha!


----------



## noiseboyuk (May 12, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Wed May 12 said:


> Okay, so I've decided I'm not abiding by Doug's no posting demos rule. Here's my first out of the box HS demo. You can probably tell it needs some finessing. Maybe some EQ. Need to smooth out some of the attacks, etc.
> 
> 
> http://www.box.net/shared/a8usm77lu9



Sure, the samples sound great but kudos to the awesome composition...


----------



## dcoscina (May 12, 2010)

I came up with another piece last night but Studio one crashed and I didn't save it....Doug's revenge? Just kidding.

Well not about losing the piece. :(


----------



## Ed (May 12, 2010)

nikolas @ Tue May 11 said:


> Jezz Dan... relax. The guy (Doug!) just is hoping that the anticipation won't create some abominations... that's all. It's not unreasonable what he said and further more Dave has broken this golden rule and now has to pay the consequences!
> 
> Dave: You will suffer eternal damnation by beta testing constantly the prereleases of the new PLAY libraries! Bouahahahahahaha!



Yea I understand what Doug is saying as well


----------



## Ed (May 12, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Wed May 12 said:


> choc0thrax @ Wed May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, so I've decided I'm not abiding by Doug's no posting demos rule. Here's my first out of the box HS demo. You can probably tell it needs some finessing. Maybe some EQ. Need to smooth out some of the attacks, etc.
> ...



I just low how real they sound, the legato is just perfect


----------



## Stephen Baysted (May 12, 2010)

dcoscina @ Wed May 12 said:


> I came up with another piece last night but Studio one crashed and I didn't save it....Doug's revenge? Just kidding.
> 
> Well not about losing the piece. :(



Did HS bring it down? Or just an unrelated crash? 

BTW, you mentioned earlier that the staccs were not that impressive (or as impressive as you'd hoped), but how do you find the measured trems? And how is CPU/Mem?


----------



## requiem_aeternam7 (May 12, 2010)

Dave, if you get time can you do a fast legato demo this time? Not necessarily super fast but medium to fast


----------



## dcoscina (May 12, 2010)

I think it's a problem with S1 since I have used PLAY libs before with it with no problems.

The short articulations are very good but do sound different than LASS which sounds more detailed and a little smaller. There is a lot of ways you can affect these sounds which is why Doug cautioned people from making quick demos without taking some time to learn it.


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## Ed (May 12, 2010)

Are the mic positions as similar as the impression most of us got from the video?


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## Pedro Camacho (May 12, 2010)

Doug Rogers said:


> David (and others), learn all the features of the collection before publishing your work, HS has a lot of options to achieve realism for any style of writing, but like all things, you need to learn how to use them.



You know, I actually completely agree with him.

All rushed demos rarely make justice to the product.

Sometimes even official demos don't make justice.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 12, 2010)

Pedro Camacho @ Wed May 12 said:


> Doug Rogers said:
> 
> 
> > David (and others), learn all the features of the collection before publishing your work, HS has a lot of options to achieve realism for any style of writing, but like all things, you need to learn how to use them.
> ...



a customer has no obligation to "do the product justice." Dave spent 1400$ of his own hard earned money on it, he now OWNS the product and it's not his job to "do justice to the product." If Doug's lazy ass made more than 2 paltry demos for his own product maybe we wouldn't have this problem. Maybe Doug needs to talk to his team and ask them why only 2 crappy demos were released for one of the most anticipated sound libs of all time? 
Don't put the blame on the customers who purchased and now OWN the product with their hard earned cash and have no obligations to anyone

I think it's outright pompously offensive for Doug to "command" his customers to not release any demos. He has no right and it made him look like an ass


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## nikolas (May 12, 2010)

shouldn't we lighten up a bit? Of course Doug has no business telling a customer what to do, after he's bought the license to a sample library...

But he's also a musician and as such we do need to realize his passion for his products!


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## ozmorphasis (May 12, 2010)

This is indeed ridiculous how reactive people are becoming. It was not a command on Doug's part. It's what he wants, which is totally understandable. Just think about how many people have expressed what they _want_ from East West:

...make it cost this much or that much

...make the fonts of the GUI more xxxx

...provide it on DVD...no provide it on hard disk....

...abandon Play and go back to Kontakt

etc.

It's ok to want something AND to ask for it. He is not ethically in the wrong for doing so. If he punished you for it somehow, that would be a different scenario. Otherwise, we are ALL asking for what we would like to see happen. The fact that he engages in a more direct dialogue with his customers is not a fault, but a style of doing business. You are free to disengage and do what you want. He is free to ask for what he wants. Done.

O


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## Vision (May 12, 2010)

Hey guys. So.. Started working on an idea last night, and just went with it. At this point I probably only know about 10% of HS. Some of the patches take a bit of time to load. So, didn't have time to go through a lot.

So anyways here's an excerpt of what I'm working on.. 


http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16446


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## FireGS (May 12, 2010)

Better than I figured for the first user HS demo! Nice!


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## Chaim (May 12, 2010)

http://media.soundsonline.com/tutorials ... torial.mov


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## Mike Connelly (May 12, 2010)

In the video Nick says it's the first library to use CC11 for crossfading instead of just volume. Maybe that's technically correct, but LASS does the same thing but with mod wheel instead of CC11. I assume vienna must have a similar way of crossfading layers as well?


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## Marius Masalar (May 12, 2010)

Also seems like the Key Velocity controlling interval legato type is the same system as in LASS, which is nice — I found it intuitive.


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## Mike Connelly (May 12, 2010)

Yeah, looking at the manual, there were a number of things that really reminded me of LASS.


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## Hannes_F (May 12, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Thu May 13 said:


> In the video Nick says it's the first library to use CC11 for crossfading instead of just volume.



Maybe he meant to say it is _their _first library to do that?


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## Mike Connelly (May 12, 2010)

It's possible...he compares it to "every other library" - maybe he did mean every other EW library.


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## southnorth (May 12, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed May 12 said:


> to use CC11 for crossfading instead of just volume



Excuse my noobity, what does 'crossfade' mean in this context? What is crossfaded?  I'm sure I actually know the mechanics of this.


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## Dan Mott (May 12, 2010)

It's so much better that CC11 controls dynamics, way more contorl and less fiddling.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 12, 2010)

Er..I don't see how that's new. You should be able to have parameters like that you can assign any CC to.

And are we talking about sample crossfades like velocity or vibrato? VSL and CS does stuff like that with assignable CCs.


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## stevenson-again (May 13, 2010)

+1. it is incredible sounding. i wonder how long i will be able to hold off....

i would say though, i wish cc's for this kind of functionality was standardized. samplemodellings the trumpet use the same cc asigns as HS (cc1 for vib cc11 for dynamics), but LASS and symphobia use cc1 for dynamic crossfades. i have been setting up remapping transformers in logic so that everything is consistent (i prefer cc1 for dynamics) and i suppose i could do that again for HS but it would be a pain not to have to.

is it possible to reassign in play and have it saved forever?


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## Ian Livingstone (May 13, 2010)

mine just turned up to UK 

Sadly too busy to install as preparing for a live string session at Abbey Rd for Monday.

Ian


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## Dick the Flick (May 13, 2010)

+ 1 HERE!

I have a copy of Hollywood Strings due any day now (from the European Office) and recently bought a special long throw fader MIDI Controller (BCF 2000) in anticipation of Hollywood Strings turning up.

However when the HS release got put back, I bought LASS strings for a movie I'm scoring and the idea that we can CHANGE THE CC NUMBERS IN PLAY (because different VI's have different CC's) WOULD BE VERY SMART!

NICK OR DOUG @ EW - IS THAT POSSIBLE -? PRETTY PLEASE.


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## germancomponist (May 13, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:


> ... I just meant that we are using cc11 to crossfade between 5 dynamics levels and cc1 to crossfade between 3 variations of vibrato nv Vib and molt vibrato. Between the 2 controllers you are mixing 13 samples in the biggest patches.... .



3 variations of vibrato: This is very cool, man! o/~


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 13, 2010)

> I just meant that we are using cc11 to crossfade between 5 dynamics levels and cc1 to crossfade between 3 variations of vibrato nv Vib and molt vibrato.



That is a great thing to know. I'd use Breath Control for dynamics, but overall controllable vibrato is a definite feature for me, which CS has, and LASS doesn't (in terms of controlling regardless of dynamics)

So that stocks HS up on my list.


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## Mike Connelly (May 13, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Wed May 12 said:


> It's so much better that CC11 controls dynamics, way more contorl and less fiddling.



How is doing it with CC11 better than doing the exact same thing with CC1? It seems identical to me, just a wheel versus a pedal.

If you really prefer a pedal to the mod wheel, you can even remap the controller (some plugins allow doing it there, otherwise most hosts should be able to do it).



Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:


> Hi Everyone, I don't really know what other software does what exactly.



Thanks for clarifying that you meant every other _EW_ library, that makes more sense since most if not all of the major recent (and some not so recent) string libraries already had that feature.



stevenson-again @ Thu May 13 said:


> i would say though, i wish cc's for this kind of functionality was standardized. samplemodellings the trumpet use the same cc asigns as HS (cc1 for vib cc11 for dynamics), but LASS and symphobia use cc1 for dynamic crossfades. i have been setting up remapping transformers in logic so that everything is consistent (i prefer cc1 for dynamics) and i suppose i could do that again for HS but it would be a pain not to have to.



I was thinking that too. If PLAY doesn't allow remapping it (does it? Kontakt and some others likely do), I wouldn't be surprised if some others get switched over to match PLAY for more consistency (either official releases or user patches).

Expression for dynamics and mod wheel for vibrato does also seem to be a better match for the midi spec.

And I totally agree about mapping for breath controller, it would be great if someone could come up with a good standard mapping for wind controllers and if devs could support it (even if it had to be a separate set of patches). The biggest issue is probably patches that use velocity for something other than volume since with a wind controller when you start a note with high BC value, you will always have high velocity.

LASS did put up a test patch of crossfading vibrato - their reasoning for not having vibrato independent of dynamics is that it's rare for string players to have more vibrato as it gets quieter and less as it gets louder. But if there was enough user demand for patches like that, they definitely could create them since they have the recordings. If you have LASS and you're interested in that, definitely drop them a line on their user board and let them know.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 13, 2010)

Mike, You are wrong about this. Having dynamics separate from vibrato is the most realistic way to do things. It will take you about 30 seconds hands on and you'll get it. Part of it is having the ability to crossfade to non vibrato at the end of a note before the next legato interval, without changing the dynamics. This is what happens in real life. To be clear, other string libraries do not have what we have here, which is 13 independent tones from FF non vibrato to soft molt vibrato. Every other library avoids the less used sounds like these.


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## José Herring (May 13, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:


> Mike, You are wrong about this. Having dynamics separate from vibrato is the most realistic way to do things. It will take you about 30 seconds hands on and you'll get it. Part of it is having the ability to crossfade to non vibrato at the end of a note before the next legato interval, without changing the dynamics. This is what happens in real life.



I think the idea is killer. The more control over the expression the better imo. But with CC11 used as crossfades what can be used to adjust the volume envelope without adjusting the main volume? When the xfades are on cc1 I use cc11 often to enhance the dynamic range of the patch. So if I don't have that option in HS I hope that the pp,p layers weren't normalized and thus too loud. I find this problem all the time in EWQLSO.


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## JohnG (May 13, 2010)

agree with Jose. This is as exciting a capability as the sounds themselves.


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## Stephen Baysted (May 13, 2010)

Ian Livingstone @ Thu May 13 said:


> Dick the Flick @ Thu May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > + 1 HERE!
> ...



Does he wield an axe and have a penchant for chopping doors down too? >8o 

Nice to have you on board Richard (whoever you are  - but it seems you come highly recommended. :D


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## germancomponist (May 13, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu May 13 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike, You are wrong about this. Having dynamics separate from vibrato is the most realistic way to do things. It will take you about 30 seconds hands on and you'll get it. Part of it is having the ability to crossfade to non vibrato at the end of a note before the next legato interval, without changing the dynamics. This is what happens in real life.
> ...



... cc11 to crossfade between 5 dynamics levels.... . 

With this you control the volume envelope. You know, the sound from pp is different as the sound from ff. And that´s it. 

When you change the volume via cc11 you also change the sound via moving then between this 5 dynamic recordings, to sound more as the real thing.


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## Chaim (May 13, 2010)

I have a compliant.

It is not possible to play medium tempo legato lines with the various legato patches.

Either very fast which works excellent, or very slow, simply because you can adjust your brain to play the next note earlier than need be in order for it to sound in place. (in time)

I saw Nick's tutorial, (where he talks about how these patches work) and am half through the manual. 

I played around with HS yesterday a few hours and was very surprised at this.

All it needs (if I may say) is some adjustments in the script as to what is considered fast and what is slow.

I hope this is what nick wrote above that is going to be in an update....

Now the positive: The whole thing with all those layers of vibrato and dynamics is a wonderful approach and makes life easier to get a more real sound using only one patch.


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## Mike Connelly (May 13, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:


> Mike, You are wrong about this. Having dynamics separate from vibrato is the most realistic way to do things.



I was just passing along what their stated reasoning was, not agreeing or disagreeing with it. So I guess you think Andrew is wrong - hopefully he'll drop in and state his point of view himself.

And I'm sure your library has some things that other libraries don't have - I was just talking about one specific statement and I'm glad you clarified it.



Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:


> Every other library avoids the less used sounds like these.





Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:


> I don't really know what other software does what exactly.



Funny, those two statements seem a bit contradictory. LASS seems to have loud non and soft vibrato (although I don't know if any of the vibrato in that library would really be considered "molto"). Can someone with Vienna or Cinematic Strings say if those libraries have those?


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## José Herring (May 13, 2010)

germancomponist @ Thu May 13 said:


> josejherring @ Thu May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:
> ...



This much I know. It's just in past libraries the lower dynamic levels were boosted or normalized so the actual difference between the dynamic layers wasn't proper. So I always adjust the volume level along with the crossfade to make the lower levels softer. I use both xfades and volume changes to get more dynamics.

But in HS if they didn't boost the softer samples then a xfade would be adequate.

best,

Jose


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## Mike Connelly (May 13, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu May 13 said:


> This much I know. It's just in past libraries the lower dynamic levels were boosted or normalized so the actual difference between the dynamic layers wasn't proper. So I always adjust the volume level along with the crossfade to make the lower levels softer. I use both xfades and volume changes to get more dynamics.



Interesting point. It would be nice (in general, not just with this library) to have a parameter for these sorts of patches that allows expanding or compressing the dynamic range in relation to the crossfades. In other words, the actual crossfade stays the same, but the quietest and loudest ends can be made more or less quiet by having the volume adjust as well.


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## southnorth (May 13, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu May 13 said:


> But in HS if they didn't boost the softer samples then a xfade would be adequate.



Would crossfade be enough using CS too? Or would you end up with a volume "quantisation" that seems unnatural. From another perspective, how many dynamics levels are there in CS?


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## muziksculp (May 13, 2010)

It would be interesting to read some feedback from current, and future EW-HS users as to whether they are Running EW-HS on their main DAW, or have it running on a dedicated slave machine ? and if you are running it via SSD, or SATA2 ?

Thanks.


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## james7275 (May 13, 2010)

Is anybody running or about to run HS with a machine with only "minimum specs"? i only have a dual core and 4 gigs so any feedback would be much appreciatd.


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## José Herring (May 13, 2010)

southnorth @ Thu May 13 said:


> josejherring @ Thu May 13 said:
> 
> 
> > But in HS if they didn't boost the softer samples then a xfade would be adequate.
> ...



You're asking me? I haven't bought any of the newer string libraries. I've been on the fence for so long trying to decide. Unlike most people I hate, hate, hate spending money on samples. I've been putting most of my money into synths, programs, computers and percussion instruments and recording stuff lately. Next on my list is a soprano sax. I haven't really purchased a sample library in about 2 or 3 years. 

But, imo from what I've heard of CS I've been really impressed with. It handles the softer dynamics as well as the louder ones well. Seems to have a real natural and easy dynamic range. A little too boomy on the bottom end for me. Comes from being recorded in an empty hall imo, but the violins for film scoring are some of the best I've heard including HS. I think CS is the library to beat to get that epic Batman strings sound. But HS potentially has more uses.


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## Ed (May 13, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu May 13 said:


> But, imo from what I've heard of CS I've been really impressed with. It handles the softer dynamics as well as the louder ones well. Seems to have a real natural and easy dynamic range. A little too boomy on the bottom end for me. Comes from being recorded in an empty hall imo, but the violins for film scoring are some of the best I've heard including HS. I think CS is the library to beat to get that epic Batman strings sound. But HS potentially has more uses.



I think CS sounds awesome after that Galactica demo Alex posted before, I think when he adds legato repetitions it will be killer  or at least for the way i work.


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## southnorth (May 13, 2010)

Yeah, the demos I've heard of CS are really good!



josejherring @ Thu May 13 said:


> A little too boomy on the bottom end for me. Comes from being recorded in an empty hall imo



This apparently has to do with reflections. Would you like to elaborate?


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## José Herring (May 13, 2010)

southnorth @ Thu May 13 said:


> Yeah, the demos I've heard of CS are really good!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Having played in many concert halls I've come to the conclusion that the acoustics are designed assuming that there will be an audience to dampen a lot of the reflections. To me that's the main problem with EW orchestra samples. I haven't played in a concert hall in a long time sadly but I do remember when we had dress rehearsals in an empty hall the low end resonates way out of proportion to the rest of the frequencies.

Ed, that BSG demo was totally, totally awesome. I remember Alex saying that he carved out a little of the EQ around 400 and added 25% saturation to it. I just tried it with EW on a job I'm doing now and it totally made the sound of the orchestra sound incredible imo. 

The difference to me between CS and HS besides extended articulations is that HS recorded in a nice studio doesn't suffer that much from too much bass reflections. But, I really am at heart a classical guy so the idea of strings in a concert hall kind of sits right with me. 

In the end I'll probably just end up getting all three major string libraries as all of them offer up something unique. HS has the right studio sound, CS the right concert hall sound and LASS the detail, div and the right TV/record sound.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 13, 2010)

CS has about 4 layers including with low and high pos vibrato.

CS has a bit of noise in it, but honestly it doesn't bother me. Sounds a bit more real in my ears. The cellos have some low end rumble in them that you sometimes want to cut out however.

CS isn't entirely out of the box, and I'm sure HS might be the same way.

There is still some tweaks I'm doing with CS.


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## Hannes_F (May 13, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 13 said:


> Mike, You are wrong about this. Having dynamics separate from vibrato is the most realistic way to do things. It will take you about 30 seconds hands on and you'll get it.



If I may comment on that from the point of view of a string player: Nick is perfectly right here. I have always advocated that string libraries should decouple dynamics and vibrato (and the third value would be timbre - warmth/brightness).

If volume and vibrato are baked together this might sound good in the one or other case but is not an instrument in the way a string player thinks, feels and plays. That is why I found myself so hobbled by string libraries that even though I had put lots of money into it I basically stopped using them.

The following chart may be useful for understanding the principle and could help to use this new sort of libraries. You can see how the different aspects of tone are independent from each other. You could turn this cube to view it from another side, for example if you are looking from above then dynamics are on one axis and vibrato on the other. This picture was part of a suggestion for how sample libraries should work that I proposed in 2006 and I am really happy that finally somebody brought some key aspects of this sort of thinking into reality.


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## sbkp (May 13, 2010)

New Hollywood Strings demos are up, including some "technique" demos from Thomas:

http://www.soundsonline.com/hollywood-strings


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 13, 2010)

Wow...


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## johncarter (May 13, 2010)

Yes ... no words except wow :shock: 

Especially Desiderata, Prelude to a nightmare...

And the amazing "Threnody Divisi" which features a very nice 80-90s strings sound !


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## southnorth (May 13, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 14 said:


> Having played in many concert halls I've come to the conclusion that the acoustics are designed assuming that there will be an audience to dampen a lot of the reflections. To me that's the main problem with EW orchestra samples. I haven't played in a concert hall in a long time sadly but I do remember when we had dress rehearsals in an empty hall the low end resonates way out of proportion to the rest of the frequencies.



Thanks for the enlightenment!


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## southnorth (May 13, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Fri May 14 said:


> CS has about 4 layers including with low and high pos vibrato.



Have you tried creating dynamics using only crossfading between the layers? Or is volume automation necessary in order to make it sound real?


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## FireGS (May 13, 2010)

http://aixsyd.com/music/HSLOTR2.mp3

My first attempt with HS.


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## johncarter (May 13, 2010)

Very cool for a first attempt.
Seems these strings have a very cool tone !!
Maybe you should add some reverb on the strings or mix some surround mics !


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 13, 2010)

southnorth @ Thu May 13 said:


> Nathan Allen Pinard @ Fri May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > CS has about 4 layers including with low and high pos vibrato.
> ...



I use breath control for the dynamics. Works great for me. Vibrato is controlled with CC11 (but usually I track that seperately since working your foot and the EWI takes work)


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 13, 2010)

Great tone on the high violins. The lower register probably shouldn't have as much consistent vibrato, but great job.


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## FireGS (May 13, 2010)

Its all a journey <3


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## spectrum (May 13, 2010)

johncarter @ Thu May 13 said:


> Yes ... no words except wow :shock:
> 
> Especially Desiderata


Yes...that's a phenomenal demo and piece of music.

Am I correct that we are hearing some Omnisphere mixed in that demo as well, Nick?

That opening and closing texture sounds very familiar if I'm not mistaken. 

Congrats on the epic release!


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## Dan Mott (May 13, 2010)

Has anyone been through the measured tremolo patches??

When i play them, they just cut out half way through on all sections. Hmm.....


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## Christian Marcussen (May 13, 2010)

Nice demos. I like the fact that they have so wide a stereo spread.


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## Aaron Sapp (May 13, 2010)

Colin's demo is outstanding. Goosebumps...

Nice work, guys!


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## Nick Phoenix (May 13, 2010)

Desiderata was written by Colin O'Malley. I don't know what he used but Omnisphere is a good bet.


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## ChrisAxia (May 14, 2010)

Great demos by all the team. The strings really sound great, and I have never heard samples of high violins and cellos sound so good before! Can't wait till it arrives. You hear that Michiel? Get my HS in the post please! Ian Livingstone has his, and I'm sure I ordered before him!!

~Chris


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## germancomponist (May 14, 2010)

ChrisAxia @ Fri May 14 said:


> ...Can't wait till it arrives. You hear that Michiel? Get my HS in the post please! Ian Livingstone has his, and I'm sure I ordered before him!!
> 
> ~Chris



Oopssssss :mrgreen: o/~


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## Colin O'Malley (May 14, 2010)

Eric,

Re: Desiderata and Omnisphere - yes its in there. I can't remember the last time I wrote a track without Omnisphere. 

Colin


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## Ed (May 14, 2010)

Wow. Now Im interested 

edit: I am somewhat confused though since those technique demos sound great, yet some of the first user demos don't sound this good at all. So I wonder.. why??


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## dcoscina (May 14, 2010)

Because it's a monster library with a lot of performance control parameters that take a bit to understand and use effectivel
and some of us don't have unlimited fee time to dick around with this library. Be patient, user demos will get better over time.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 14, 2010)

Ed @ Fri May 14 said:


> Wow. Now Im interested
> 
> edit: I am somewhat confused though since those technique demos sound great, yet some of the first user demos don't sound this good at all. So I wonder.. why??



That's weird, I thought the complete opposite. I wasn't that impressed with any of the new posted demos by EW yet was far more impressed with the sound in the user demos like by Dave, etc. 
For some reason the strings sounded really synthy to me in the demos of Nick Pheonix, TJB, etc...maybe it's just me.


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## sbkp (May 14, 2010)

Ed @ Fri May 14 said:


> edit: I am somewhat confused though since those technique demos sound great, yet some of the first user demos don't sound this good at all. So I wonder.. why??



Maybe because TJ did the technique demos? =o


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## southnorth (May 14, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Fri May 14 said:


> I use breath control for the dynamics. Works great for me. Vibrato is controlled with CC11 (but usually I track that seperately since working your foot and the EWI takes work)



Cool, thanks!


----------



## Chaim (May 14, 2010)

On the topic of SSD drives:

http://eshop.macsales.com/Customized_Pa ... eb-10.html


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 14, 2010)

Chaim @ Fri May 14 said:


> On the topic of SSD drives:
> 
> http://eshop.macsales.com/Customized_Pa ... eb-10.html



Interesting. Didn't know SSD drives get slower over time. W. T. F? I'll stick with my 7200 for now. >8o


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## Chaim (May 14, 2010)

Ha ha, and only a 5 year life!


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## dcoscina (May 14, 2010)

Loading is sloooooowwwwwww for me. I'm going to get a 10000rpm drive today. Yeah it's gonna get hotter than hell but at least is should load faster. 

Love this library though. And thanks requiem for the props. To be honest, I also wasn't that impressed with the demos. I think partly because I have the library and know what it sounds like just playing around with the patches.

I also get a sudden cut-off on the shorter articulations. But I LOVE the multiple mic options. I have used a couple for the shorter articulations. I'm going to work on another piece tonight when I actually have more than 15 minutes or a half hour to work something out.


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## Marius Masalar (May 14, 2010)

I wasn't particularly moved by many of the fresh demos (only 2 or 3 were really selling points for me), but I really appreciate the technique demos and all the different mic positions and so on of the same phrases. Very useful. Would have liked to see some naked slur stuff in there too demonstrating the different types, but this is still a great step.

Thanks, EW


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## Chaim (May 14, 2010)

> I also get a sudden cut-off on the shorter articulations. But I LOVE the multiple mic options. I have used a couple for the shorter articulations. I'm going to work on another piece tonight when I actually have more than 15 minutes or a half hour to work something out.




Those cut off samples, are they from the tight folders? I think nick mentioned in the video that they did that purposely, that all samples should have the same length, just put reverb on them, it is meant to be played fast and not keep that note down till the end....


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## dcoscina (May 14, 2010)

I find they cut off in both tight and loose folders but I'll try that again. I'll also have a look at those videos. 

EDIT- I just want to clarify that after all these months of waiting, I honestly find Hollywood Strings have largely lived up to the hype. I think the tone of the strings is spot on- especially in the long bow samples. The sound is rich, expressive- kinda like Miroslav Phil strings except much more complex and updated. They really sound expressive and real.


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## Chaim (May 14, 2010)

How do the legato patches act by you? Are you comfortable with it's playability? or it's hard to play in tempo/sync at medium and slower note durations?


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## Mike Connelly (May 14, 2010)

Nice demos, and it's great to have all the soloed bits.

Nick - are the other orchestral instruments and choir in your demos all EW?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 14, 2010)

Really good demos. I can't see how I'll be able to pass this up later this summer. Congratulations to all who worked on it. o-[][]-o


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 14, 2010)

Oh the slurs and bow changes are fabulous! :shock:


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## Dan Mott (May 14, 2010)

The shorts are speed detected, the longer you hold the note down, the longer the note actually is. The faster and shorter you play, the notes sound like they are cutting off which is normal because when playing really fast, a player would do very short and quick strokes. Figured this out with experimenting.


Still, the measured tremolo cuts off, can anyone try this too.

I will also be writing an honest review soon in this thread.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 14, 2010)

Chaim, I'll put a legato tutorial online soon. We also have a patch update that will be online shortly that fixes a few small issues. Try loading any leg slur+port patch. In these velocity determines what kind of attack you get. The harder you play the faster the attack. If an interval pops out here and there, use cc11 to tame it. I only started really trying to use the library about 2 weeks ago and I am still wrapping my head around some things, mostly to do with writing for strings in general and phrasing. Learning how to ride cc11 so it sounds like real phrasing is an important skill with midi strings. My demos were strings only + EWQLSO celeste in one and EWQLSO Harp in the other. I was going for exposed. I think some amazing pieces of music will pop up in the next couple of months.


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## muziksculp (May 14, 2010)

Great sounding o/~ demos !

I wish they had more demos showing off the shorter articulations, (spic. marc, staccto, staccatisimo, spicatto, ...) also some of the tremolos, pizz., in action. many of these short articulation are not included in their solo'd technique demos. seems like the focus is more on the legato/portamento patches. 

Would love to hear a HS demo done in a 'John Powell' ish style, i.e. fast tempo, action scene, up-tempo, using mostly short-bowed articulations. 

Some comments I read mention that LASS is very good for short-articulations, so, hearing more of HS-short articulations would be very helpful to evaluate, and compare to LASS's short articulations. 

The overall timbre of EW-HS is the best I have heard coming out of a strings library so far, which imho. is a huge + for HS. timbre-quality is one of the most important characteristics of strings that I find hard to capture in samples, the EW team did a fantastic job in their recording technique. Would love to see EW Hollywood woodwinds, and brass developed next. Hopefully, they won't be 300+ GB each :mrgreen:


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## Chaim (May 14, 2010)

Thanks Nick looking forward....


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## sbkp (May 14, 2010)

dcoscina @ Fri May 14 said:


> Nick, got a question for you- are there any 7200 drives that are faster than others? I just cannot get the funds to upgrade to an SSD at this time but would like better speed upon loading up the patches. Some of them take over a minute to load. Kills the work flow a bit for me.



I'm not Nick, but...

If I were you, and if a 10K drive weren't an option, I'd get a 1TB or bigger drive with a big cache (not sure how much that helps, but hey... it can't hurt), like a WD Black.

Then I'd partition it with the first partition about 350GB (big enough for HS and nothing else). Then I'd leave the rest of the drive untouched, or used only as backup space for my other sample drives.

This process - called "stroking" the drive >8o - will maximize your drive's performance in two ways:

Because the outside of the drive is moving so much faster than the inner part of the drive, you maximize the raw transfer rate of the drive. (Obviously it's rotating at the same speed, but the distance the outer edge travels is 3x farther than the middle of the drive.)

Because the outside of the drive is bigger (pi * radius squared), you actually are only using a very small portion of the width of the drive. And what that means is that your seek times go waaaaaay down. If the drive has an average seek time of 8ms, and you only use the outer 20% of the drive, then your average seek time might go down below 2ms.

It won't approach SSD performance (0.1ms seek times!) but it'll help.


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## José Herring (May 14, 2010)

Load time not withstanding do all the patches play off of a 7200 rpm drive? Is there a problem with streaming at that speed?


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## dcoscina (May 14, 2010)

Not that I've noticed but I also freeze some tracks just in case


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## Jack Weaver (May 14, 2010)

Jose,

With a single, internal 7200 RPM drive and a Mac Pro 3.2GHz Mac Pro, I've so far observed that the 'Powerful System' patches are a problem - and a bit of the 'normal' legato patches popping some. 

I do want to add I haven't had a lot of time with HS yet. 

.


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## José Herring (May 14, 2010)

Thanks Jack. 

SSD drives wouldn't be worth it imo. I wonder if 10k drives would perform better.

Jose


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 14, 2010)

can someone explain to me how or why HARD DRIVES are streaming these samples when the samples are being loaded into the RAM? 

To my knowledge when I go into Cubase and let's say I open Kontakt then load a LASS Violin Staccato Patch. That patch is going into my RAM and no longer has anything to do with my hard drive. I can see this because when I go into task manager I see my ram shoot up by a hundred megs or so. 

So why is it that people are always saying that a 7200 has a hard time 'STREAMING' an articulation when that articulation should be in the RAM and not in the hard drive?? Can someone explain??


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## midphase (May 14, 2010)

Only a small portion of the samples goes into your ram. The rest of the instrument is streamed from the hard drive.

This is why you can have a 2gig piano load in a little over 20 seconds and still have plenty of RAM left over for everything else.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 14, 2010)

midphase @ Fri May 14 said:


> Only a small portion of the samples goes into your ram. The rest of the instrument is streamed from the hard drive.
> 
> This is why you can have a 2gig piano load in a little over 20 seconds and still have plenty of RAM left over for everything else.



2 gig piano? Which library is this? >8o >8o >8o 

What you say is strange because sometimes when I load samples I watch my ram on task manager and the ram usage corresponds to the size of the samples roughly.

But I suppose this makes sense..just seems to be a really convoluted way of doing things. 

Are 10k drives reliable and do they burn out fast?


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## Mike Connelly (May 14, 2010)

With Kontakt, PLAY, and most other sample players, you can choose in the prefs whether to stream or to load the whole thing into ram. The default is usually to stream, but you may have yours set to load it all into ram.

While it's great to have a machine with 16 or 24 gigs of ram, even that wouldn't scratch the surface of what would be needed for full orchestral mockups or even the biggest piano libraries.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 14, 2010)

> With Kontakt, PLAY, and most other sample players, you can choose in the prefs whether to stream or to load the whole thing into ram. The default is usually to stream, but you may have yours set to load it all into ram.


Which takes forever btw.


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## Vision (May 14, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 14 said:


> Load time not withstanding do all the patches play off of a 7200 rpm drive? Is there a problem with streaming at that speed?



In my staccatissimo demo thread I mentioned that... 

"Streaming was problematic in Logic. The main string Cello part (repetitions) would lag if the track wasn't specifically chosen. I'm not sure if this is Logic specific, or perhaps I need to set up Play to be more efficient." 

"Tyranny" was only using 8-9 tracks in Logic. 3 of which were HS. This is running off of a 7200 rpm drive, on a 3.2ghz MacPro Octo. In my very very short experience with this library, I would say yes there will be streaming issues on a 7200. If you really want to be a Hollywood Strings power user get a faster drive. I was going to look into SSD's, but I may check out a 10,000 rpm at this point as well.


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 14, 2010)

I see streaming is going to be a huge problem then. Both Peter and Dave so far have been using only a couple HS tracks at a time and already experiencing pretty major streaming problems it seems so that bodes pretty horrifically for even medium sized templates let alone huge templates that some of us use everyday with other stuff. 

And these guys are using fast octocores. I would be really curious to hear of anyone streaming this thing on a raptor or other 10k to see if the difference is big or not. ..


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 14, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 14 said:


> As with all EW Stuff they push the envelope so much that it becomes an investment into the future imo.
> 
> But no doubt I've liked what I've heard so far. It may be another year before I pick it up though. I was kind of hoping against hope that they sorted the streaming problems out. But guess there's still issues.
> 
> Luckily we have choices.



yeah ...I'll probably stick with LASS for now and take a look at HS again down the road when SSD's are cheaper and PLAY is better, etc...

HS isn't as big a 'quantum leap' over LASS that it warrants such huge expenditures to mitigate stream problems and such other things, in fact it's arguable it's comparable to LASS and not even a step ahead let alone a leap since lass seems to have better short articulations


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## Vision (May 14, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Fri May 14 said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that on Mac, PLAY is still stuck as a 32 bit plugin. When the 64 bit version ships, that should help things a bit. And Logic isn't exactly optimized for the 8 core machines yet (but who knows if or when it will be).



Exactly what I was thinking. I'll try something in Studio one. Only reason I used logic was familiarity.

Jose I wouldn't let the drive issue stop you. I still think the library is very well worth the purchase, especially for divisi. I'm going to set up a small template tonight specifically for divisi. Beyond waiting for the patches to load up (which can be looong at times depending on what it is), I don't anticipate having many problems.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 14, 2010)

Just to be clear: HS has more short articulations, velocities, repetitions than any other string library ever released, all in 5 mic positions. You guys are drawing a lot of conclusions about performance and the short notes that are incorrect. We haven't focused on selling the short note aspect because EVERYBODY!!!!!!! Said they only cared about legato. So that is our initial focus. HS is very deep with almost 1 million samples. Some of the short note patches have 4 lengths of shorts, all with 4 or 5 dynamics layers, all with 8 way round robin, in 5 mic positions in one patch. That's 5000 samples x 5 mic positions. Imit's powerful and sounds great. All the shorts are also time corrected so the attacks are consistent.


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## Ashermusic (May 14, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri May 14 said:


> HS isn't as big a 'quantum leap' over LASS that it warrants such huge expenditures to mitigate stream problems and such other things, in fact it's arguable it's comparable to LASS and not even a step ahead let alone a leap since lass seems to have better short articulations



And you state this based on your owning and doing considerable exploration of the capabilities of both, no doubt, correct ? 

Because clearly you would not be so foolish as to state this based solely on a few reports by a few users who have even admitted they have only begun to scratch the surface of a very deep library.


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## NYC Composer (May 14, 2010)

I hope there will be a 'The Making of H.S.' video. If carefully done so as not to give away trade secrets, it would probably be a fascinating documentation of the sheer effort needed to tackle a project of this size. Just the naming of each sample alone would give me a headache.


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## Ed (May 14, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri May 14 said:


> Ed @ Fri May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Wow. Now Im interested
> ...



Yes I expect it is. How you can be more impressed (no offence) with Dave's demo than with TJ's Divisi demo is beyond me.


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## artinro (May 14, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri May 14 said:


> ....in fact it's arguable it's comparable to LASS and not even a step ahead let alone a leap since lass seems to have better short articulations



I have both and don't really find this to be the case. Both LASS and HS have outstanding short articulations. HS definitely has a ton more options in the "short department" however.


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## Ed (May 14, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri May 14 said:


> midphase @ Fri May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Only a small portion of the samples goes into your ram. The rest of the instrument is streamed from the hard drive.
> ...



Thats hardly strange, even the old GigaPiano YEARS ago that came with Gigasampler was a 1Gig piano.


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## muziksculp (May 14, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:


> Just to be clear: HS has more short articulations, velocities, repetitions than any other string library ever released, all in 5 mic positions. You guys are drawing a lot of conclusions about performance and the short notes that are incorrect. We haven't focused on selling the short note aspect because EVERYBODY!!!!!!! Said they only cared about legato. So that is our initial focus. HS is very deep with almost 1 million samples. Some of the short note patches have 4 lengths of shorts, all with 4 or 5 dynamics layers, all with 8 way round robin, in 5 mic positions in one patch. That's 5000 samples x 5 mic positions. Imit's powerful and sounds great. All the shorts are also time corrected so the attacks are consistent.



Thanks for the feedback Nick.

I think hearing some additional HS audio demos, that focus on showing off the quality, flexibility, and timbre of shorter articulations would be great, and very useful, to evaluate them, not that I'm doubting their quality, but just anxious to hear them. So far the EW-HS legatos sounds superb. 

Cheers.


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## Vision (May 14, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:


> Just to be clear: HS has more short articulations, velocities, repetitions than any other string library ever released, all in 5 mic positions. You guys are drawing a lot of conclusions about performance and the short notes that are incorrect. We haven't focused on selling the short note aspect because EVERYBODY!!!!!!! Said they only cared about legato. So that is our initial focus. HS is very deep with almost 1 million samples. Some of the short note patches have 4 lengths of shorts, all with 4 or 5 dynamics layers, all with 8 way round robin, in 5 mic positions in one patch. That's 5000 samples x 5 mic positions. Imit's powerful and sounds great. All the shorts are also time corrected so the attacks are consistent.




Nick, The short note samples are spectacular. I've maybe explored 10% of the library. Personally, I'm not drawing any solid conclusions based on a few hours of writing in Logic. Just making observations from what I've encountered so far.


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## José Herring (May 14, 2010)

I'd just hate to get it and then not be able to use the better patches cause I don't have an SSD.

But who I'm a kidding. Like I can wait a year to get this thing. Here's hoping my next ASCAP check was as bountiful as the last one was o-[][]-o 

Jose


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## gsilbers (May 14, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:


> Just to be clear: HS has more short articulations, velocities, repetitions than any other string library ever released, all in 5 mic positions. You guys are drawing a lot of conclusions about performance and the short notes that are incorrect. We haven't focused on selling the short note aspect because EVERYBODY!!!!!!! Said they only cared about legato. So that is our initial focus. HS is very deep with almost 1 million samples. Some of the short note patches have 4 lengths of shorts, all with 4 or 5 dynamics layers, all with 8 way round robin, in 5 mic positions in one patch. That's 5000 samples x 5 mic positions. Imit's powerful and sounds great. All the shorts are also time corrected so the attacks are consistent.



just a simple advice from a nobody 0oD 

but i suggest taking a less defensive tone and let the market evolve naturally.. 
we'll soon realize the full potential of HS and you'alls hard work. i like HS a lot and just informing us about the facts of the libraries and its short articulations would of being enough.. 
aka.. check out spectrums posts/reply to negative feedbacks around here or gearlstulz. 

anyway.. cant wait to get a hold on HS! great job. 
hollywood brass soon?


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## Nick Phoenix (May 14, 2010)

This is the 97th time that someone has recommended that I be more like Eric. It's Deja vu x97. They are always right, but I am who I am. No hope for me really. ~o)


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 14, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:


> This is the 97th time that someone has recommended that I be more like Eric. It's Deja vu x97. They are always right, but I am who I am. No hope for me really. ~o)



nah I agree with Pheonix I went a little overboard in already declaring all over the place that LASS short arts are better than HS but in reality what the hell do I know I've only heard probably 5% of total HS short articulations because I only have LASS and not HS and can only go by the demos that I hear. So yes I'll reserve judgment for now!


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## sbkp (May 14, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:


> This is the 97th time that someone has recommended that I be more like Eric. It's Deja vu x97. They are always right, but I am who I am. No hope for me really. ~o)



You're keeping track!?!?! o-[][]-o


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## dcoscina (May 14, 2010)

I just finished another HS piece using mostly short articulations this time. It's called "The Night Stalker" and it's in the composition forum. Using the close mic's, the short articulations sound very very convincing. I mix them a bit with the default mic's for some depth. I agree that 64bit PLAY on Mac will help a lot. I used Cubase 5.1.1 tonight because Logic 9 (32bit) us flakey and crashed earlier. I prefer using Studio One Pro to be honest though. I'm just not sure why its timing is so weird. Cubase did fine with HS although I froze most of my lines right after to free up computer resources.


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## Jack Weaver (May 14, 2010)

One thing is sure from these HS demos:

Antongiulio Frulio is killer!

.


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## José Herring (May 14, 2010)

Jack Weaver @ Fri May 14 said:


> One thing is sure from these HS demos:
> 
> Antongiulio Frulio is killer!
> 
> .



Yeah. They buried the best demo at the bottom of the pile. What's up with that? That's the only demo that even comes close to sounding realistic, imo. It's actually real music that could be used in a movie rather than just another demo.


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## Dan Mott (May 15, 2010)

josejherring @ Sat May 15 said:


> Jack Weaver @ Fri May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing is sure from these HS demos:
> ...




Wold you like to share with us on why the demos aren't realistic enough for you???

Would everyone else like to share this aswell, instead of just saying "These aren't realistic"

No offence.


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## Mike Connelly (May 15, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:


> This is the 97th time that someone has recommended that I be more like Eric. It's Deja vu x97. They are always right, but I am who I am. No hope for me really. ~o)



Well, you could always give it a shot and see what happens.

And to be fair, I'd say Doug makes Nick look like Eric. 8)


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## Jack Weaver (May 15, 2010)

Dan-Jay,

I didn't make that specific comment but that last demo has more space around the instruments, the strings are rounder and overall the strings sound less hyped. 

On a more esoteric level it seemed to me the creator was less self-conscious and the nature of the music was allowed to blossom easier. It really showed that Antongiulio Frulio is a composer, orchestrator and virtual instrument realization artist of the highest caliber. I'm grateful that Nick brought him to my attention. 

My comments are in no way meant to take from the other demo artists and their pieces. Overall the demos were all first rate and showed several different aspects of the library. I'm glad I bought it. 

.


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## José Herring (May 15, 2010)

Dan-Jay @ Sat May 15 said:


> josejherring @ Sat May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Weaver @ Fri May 14 said:
> ...



Personal preference really. I just listened to all the demos and felt that "Haunted" would be something that I could possibly see me writing. The orchestra is more balanced. Paid more attention to the construction of the piece overall. He paid more attention to actual orchestration principles, imo. No offense to the other demo makers who I think did a fine job. I just felt that instead of trying to sound "realistic" he was actual trying to realize a piece of music. It's not perfect mockup wise but I had an emotional response to it which is far more important to me.

best,

Jose


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## gsilbers (May 15, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:


> This is the 97th time that someone has recommended that I be more like Eric. It's Deja vu x97. They are always right, but I am who I am. No hope for me really. ~o)



ha! didnt know.

no not Eric, just an example of not being like "if steve jobs posted on every gamer PC forum"  

hey, man the facts speak for themselves. and the product is kickass, i doubt anyone here or anywhere posting "this sucks" will do any damage to sales. specially if the 3 posts before and after say it rocks!


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## gsilbers (May 15, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri May 14 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > This is the 97th time that someone has recommended that I be more like Eric. It's Deja vu x97. They are always right, but I am who I am. No hope for me really. ~o)
> ...



dude, thats your opinion!! 

and i respected that even though i disagree. i like HS short string better.. i retract.. wait.. i like HS for certain things better and LASS for other things better... hows that? 
short strings from HS will rocks for big action style stuff but LASS for intimate stuff. 
but thats my opinion based on my copy of LASS and demos from HS.. so yes limited and stated by references.. limited ones.


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## choc0thrax (May 15, 2010)

That faraway sordino demo sounds great... until the part from 35 seconds to 56 seconds which ruins the whole thing. But still, the strings at the beginning and end of that demo are real nice.


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## Ashermusic (May 15, 2010)

gsilbers @ Sat May 15 said:


> requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 14 said:
> ...



An opinion based on nothing more than listening to a few demos of a brand new deep library is better off not being voiced IMHO.

This idea that ANY opinion, by ANYONE, based on even very little information is somehow supposed to be worthy of respect is anti-art, anti-craft and frankly anti-intellectual.

What I DO greatly respect is that when I called him out on it, Requiem Aeternam manned up and admitted the mistake.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 15, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat May 15 said:


> gsilbers @ Sat May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > requiem_aeternam7 @ Fri May 14 said:
> ...



That isn't a mistake. That's an opinion. Opinions are simply that. Now calling it a REVIEW would be different. If someone posted a blog or something reviewing HS based on demos, that would be wrong. Reviews generally mean "Yeah I saw/used the product and this is what I think about it after seeing/using it"

HS has more than enough demos out for us to gauge whether HS is better then XYZ string lib. It's how we make buying decisions.


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## dcoscina (May 15, 2010)

I love Hollywood Strings. Just in case there was any doubt. For the first time I can get that expressive rich string sound that elluded me for years.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 15, 2010)

dcoscina @ Sat May 15 said:


> I love Hollywood Strings. Just in case there was any doubt. For the first time I can get that expressive rich string sound that elluded me for years.



Which lib did you have before?


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## requiem_aeternam7 (May 15, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sat May 15 said:


> dcoscina @ Sat May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I love Hollywood Strings. Just in case there was any doubt. For the first time I can get that expressive rich string sound that elluded me for years.
> ...



you should ask what DON'T you have? Dave has every library ever made. Lucky @[email protected]#[email protected]#. :mrgreen: 

Dave is your day job hiring by any chance they must pay real well >8o


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## Ashermusic (May 15, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sat May 15 said:


> That isn't a mistake. That's an opinion. Opinions are simply that.



Yes, but not all opinions are equal. The opinion of Hollywood Strings of an experienced musician who owns it, learn its abilities and works with it for weeks is worth hearing. An opinion of this brand new and deep library by someone who is only going by listening to a few demos is the intellectual equivalent of flatulence, equally valuable.

Everyone has a right to express an opinion but just because you can does not mean you should. 

I do not own this library and I have no immediate plans to buy it but before people express opinions on how good it is or is not, why not wait until some people who own it have a fair amount of time working with it produce more demos and then let's have THEIR opinions.


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## noiseboyuk (May 15, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun May 16 said:


> Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sat May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > An opinion of this brand new and deep library by someone who is only going by listening to a few demos is the intellectual equivalent of flatulence, equally valuable.



Rubbish. Sure, the more experienced the user, the more hands-on he / she has been, the more valuable it is - I'm totally with you to that point. But that statement above is ridiculous and kinda offensive imho. Anyone with a good pair of ears is able to evaluate the material that's been put before us in order to make our purchasing choices, and those opinions - especially from some well-respected forum members - shouldn't be automatically discounted.


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## Ed (May 16, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 14 said:


> Jack Weaver @ Fri May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing is sure from these HS demos:
> ...



You don't think TJ's divisi demo is good? :|


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## dcoscina (May 16, 2010)

requiem_aeternam7 @ Sat May 15 said:


> Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sat May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > dcoscina @ Sat May 15 said:
> ...



Yes, I am one lucky SOB. My wife also fully supports my music which helps a great deal. 

I have LASS and like it quite a lot but I found it very difficult to get a nice rich sound on it where long sustains were concerned. I'll still use it for detail and short articulations. I don't like to make one library look bad to make another look good though. I have a lot of them and I use most of them in some way. Heck, I even use GOP4 with Sibelius 6 on my laptop.


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## Ashermusic (May 16, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sat May 15 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun May 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sat May 15 said:
> ...



The point is those "well-respected forum members" should not make comments about a less than one week old released library unless they PERSONALLY have hand their hands on it and worked with it. If they do, at that point they should become less well-respected." And everyone hear thinks they have a "good set of ears" but there is wide disagreement over certain libraries so that is meaningless.

Mr. Cosina has it, is working hard with it, learning it, comparing it to his other libraries, doing demos, etc. HIS opinion therefore is actually based on something substantial and so is valuable. Someone else who merely visits the website and listens to a few demos and then pronounces it great/lousy and better/worse than another library is a person whose opinion should be given very little weight.

Anyone who decides to buy or not buy an expensive library based solely on a handful of demos and comments from people who do not even own the library is making a mistake either way.


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## midphase (May 16, 2010)

Anyone who knows me, knows that I'm not an impulse buyer. I take online demos commissioned by the developer with a huge grain of salt because I am well aware that time was not a factor when creating those pieces, and musical intent was heavily influenced by the samples (i.e. if something didn't sound quite right, it wasn't used, and if a certain articulation sounds particularly convincing, it probably made it into the demo). The only online demos which did influence me were the ones for Symphobia which listed the amount of time that it took to create that demo...to me that was brilliant and I wish more people did that.

In addition, I don't like to purchase a product for the sake of owning it. Composing is my job, and I wouldn't rush out to buy a new sample library that I didn't need anymore than I'd rush out to buy a new printer or filing cabinet I didn't need. 

If I'm working on a project that will: A) Benefit from the added realism of the samples, and B) make financial sense to purchase as part of the music budget of said project, then I'm all for it (and I won't care if I missed out on the pre-sale discounts).

I admit that although I consider myself proficient with orchestral writing, that is not what I generally get hired for...so my need for orchestral libraries is definitely less than others around here.

To me, I don't really know how good a sample library truly is until I actually use it. I need to be able to write cues on it, on my tight deadlines, and it has to deliver a noticeable improvement in quality while functioning well within my workflow. 

I'm not what you would call a developer's ideal customer.

My point is that I would urge people to be a tad more level headed with their purchases, unless of course money is no object to them. There is a lot of hype built into some of these products, a bit like a blockbuster Hollywood film, and unfortunately Rotten Tomatoes doesn't cover sample libraries.

Yes, TJ's demos sound fantastic...but TJ's stuff sounded fantastic 10 years ago. Yes Colin's demos sound incredibly realistic, but Colin's been making very realistic orchestral mockups with the last generation of tools as well.

I'm not saying that Hollywood Strings is not an amazing library, it very well might be...and I'd be surprised if it's not in my future at some point. What I'm saying is that it's important to regard all of these new products within the context of marketing, usability, and personal compositional needs.

What I will find extremely useful is when HS will pop up in the casual cues that people will post around here in a few months. I will also find it extremely useful to read some of the criticism that will inevitably surface after the initial honeymoon has passed. To me, a criticism is not necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn't necessarily dissuade me from making a purchase. I think it's important for developers to realize that, when someone brings up a potential weakness in a product, it gives me more confidence that I'll purchase something while being aware of what I'm getting myself into....good and bad!


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 16, 2010)

> The point is those "well-respected forum members" should not make comments about a less than one week old released library unless they PERSONALLY have hand their hands on it and worked with it. If they do, at that point they should become less well-respected." And everyone hear thinks they have a "good set of ears" but there is wide disagreement over certain libraries so that is meaningless.
> 
> Mr. Cosina has it, is working hard with it, learning it, comparing it to his other libraries, doing demos, etc. HIS opinion therefore is actually based on something substantial and so is valuable. Someone else who merely visits the website and listens to a few demos and then pronounces it great/lousy and better/worse than another library is a person whose opinion should be given very little weight.



Ok, so people shouldn't post in this thread then that don't own the library. Do you see my point?

Everyone has been saying favorable opinions and no one has scoffed at that. But the minute someone says a negative opinion, it's wrong. I have ears, I can tell the differences between product demos. Most of us here can. This is a non-biased forum, so we pretty much can judge any way we wish to.


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## José Herring (May 16, 2010)

Ed @ Sun May 16 said:


> josejherring @ Fri May 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Jack Weaver @ Fri May 14 said:
> ...



Yes it's quite good. But I'm not so convinced yet about HS approach to div. I can just tell that they just cut out the mics. Seems to me a little incomplete. Plus doesn't seem like you can split up the sections like in a true div and say get 4 first vln parts kind of like Mancini did a lot. But that's just my opinion.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 16, 2010)

josejherring @ Sun May 16 said:


> Ed @ Sun May 16 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Fri May 14 said:
> ...



The divisi seems to be way more detailed than the other patches.


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## Ashermusic (May 16, 2010)

1. I have ears, I can tell the differences between product demos. Most of us here can. 
2. This is a non-biased forum, so we pretty much can judge any way we wish to.[/quote]

1. A product demo, as Kays said, is a superficial way to judge a library. Until you work with it, you do not know how it will perform in real work. Of course, that only applies if one does real work, I guess. Not saying YOU don't.

2. Baloney, this forum, as a whole, is HIGHLY biased in favor of some developers and against others.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 16, 2010)

> 1. A product demo, as Kays said, is a superficial way to judge a library.



I suppose yes, but it's really the only way we can without buying it.


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## Ashermusic (May 16, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Sun May 16 said:


> > 1. A product demo, as Kays said, is a superficial way to judge a library.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose yes, but it's really the only way we can without buying it.



No, it isn't. You can listen to the advice of good composers like D Cosina who bought it and are working extensively with the library and get their feedback about what the experience is like working with it.

That means a lot more to me than any product demo.


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## José Herring (May 16, 2010)

_
2. Baloney, this forum, as a whole, is HIGHLY biased in favor of some developers and against others.[/quote]_

I agree with this statement. I often can't believe how much EWQLSO gets panned around here yet on projects like I'm working on now I first played other samples for the producers and they were like, "mmmmm...you got anything else" Then I pulled out my bad ass EWQLSO samples and they became quite elated. 

It often throws me around here but I try to keep in mind that other people hear things quite differently than composers do.

On the other hand I valued Dave's and Peter's impromtu demos more than the official demos on the site. Because I could hear right away the quality out of the box which even in the incomplete demos what quite high.

best,

Jose


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## Ed (May 16, 2010)

josejherring @ Sun May 16 said:


> I agree with this statement. I often can't believe how much EWQLSO gets panned around here yet on projects like I'm working on now I first played other samples for the producers and they were like, "mmmmm...you got anything else" Then I pulled out my bad ass EWQLSO samples and they became quite elated.



Well I bash all devs that have sucky products or made decisions that make no sense :D


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## José Herring (May 16, 2010)

Ed @ Sun May 16 said:


> josejherring @ Sun May 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with this statement. I often can't believe how much EWQLSO gets panned around here yet on projects like I'm working on now I first played other samples for the producers and they were like, "mmmmm...you got anything else" Then I pulled out my bad ass EWQLSO samples and they became quite elated.
> ...



Honestly I'd save the judgment until such time that you're played a lot of other stuff for people that aren't musicians and you'd be shocked at what they like and what they don't like. Truth be told people have held up "true legato" as the holy grail of sampling heights and yet in the real world I know several, several composers that are making bank every week that don't even own legato samples.


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## Ed (May 16, 2010)

josejherring @ Sun May 16 said:


> Honestly I'd save the judgment until such time that you're played a lot of other stuff for people that aren't musicians and you'd be shocked at what they like and what they don't like. Truth be told people have held up "true legato" as the holy grail of sampling heights and yet in the real world I know several, several composers that are making bank every week that don't even own legato samples.



Its not legato that counts its what you do with it  Thats why not all VSL instruments are good just because they have real legato.


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## José Herring (May 16, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, I've bashed products like the worst of people here, but I've just grown up to realize that it's quite pointless. It all depends on the composer, his taste and the taste of people that he works with/for.

Personally I couldn't get into Symphobia, but a lot of people swear by it. Good for them. I've done whole scores to favorable reviews with just EW Gold. It works. Not that you would think that from people around here.

I guess what gets me is people that haven't even played any music publicly (beyond posting a couple of pieces in the composers section here) that get off on criticizing everybody and everything. What's the point of that?

Well back on topic. Based on Dave's demos I'll be picking up HS. Not that I thought the demos were complete and polished but I heard enough of what I need in his demos that convinced me that I can't live without HS.


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## dcoscina (May 16, 2010)

Thanks Jose. I honestly think of Hollywood Strings as an actual musical instrument and not a product or sample library. It's something that will take some time to really master but the fundamental tone of the samples is really bang on. I have been attending a lot of concerts lately and the last one I attended I sat 20 ft away from the 2nd row of the 1st violin section. I could really hear in a detailed manner what real strings sound like. Hollywood Strings sounds REAL. If that doesn't come across in some of my demos, then that's my shortcoming with the library. The way you can add vibrato depth using CC1 is nothing short of terrific. Yes, other string libraries also do that. But there's something a little less rich about those ones. HS is the first library where I can just hang on a note and muddle with the CC1 and CC11 settings and be completely knocked out. 

Sorry to be so ga-ga over this but as someone who has spent a lot of $$$ on various libraries, I can honestly say this was worth every friggin penny. I'm scared at the prospect of Hollywood Brass. Truly. 

Oh one other thing, I hadn't realized that PLAY got updated to 2.0.9 and I was using the 2.0.8 that came with the library. I find the latest update much better with HS. I don't get notes cutting off weirdly anymore.


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## midphase (May 16, 2010)

We call those guys....suckahs!


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## JohnG (May 16, 2010)

Oh well. I'm a suckah too, then.


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## noiseboyuk (May 16, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun May 16 said:


> The point is those "well-respected forum members" should not make comments about a less than one week old released library unless they PERSONALLY have hand their hands on it and worked with it. If they do, at that point they should become less well-respected." And everyone hear thinks they have a "good set of ears" but there is wide disagreement over certain libraries so that is meaningless.
> 
> Mr. Cosina has it, is working hard with it, learning it, comparing it to his other libraries, doing demos, etc. HIS opinion therefore is actually based on something substantial and so is valuable. Someone else who merely visits the website and listens to a few demos and then pronounces it great/lousy and better/worse than another library is a person whose opinion should be given very little weight.
> 
> Anyone who decides to buy or not buy an expensive library based solely on a handful of demos and comments from people who do not even own the library is making a mistake either way.



Nope, still don't agree with how far you've taken this argument. As well as the HS full demos, there are single patch demos and we also have had some idea from the videos. Is it the same as hands on? No way. Would I dare criticise anyone else for buying HS on the basis of these (and other) demos? No way.


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## Hannes_F (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sun May 16 said:


> 2. Baloney, this forum, as a whole, is HIGHLY biased in favor of some developers and against others.


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## NYC Composer (May 17, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun May 16 said:
> 
> 
> > 2. Baloney, this forum, as a whole, is HIGHLY biased in favor of some developers and against others.



Speaking of baloney( see, I stay on topic), I have two rules for living I'd like to share:

1. Never eat luncheon meat that sticks to the wall.
2. Never, EVER, eat anything called 'headcheese'.

These little homilies have stood me in good stead. I hope they can help some of you as well.

Now, back to your argument! Mr Asher, I believe it's your serve.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sun May 16 said:


> Nope, still don't agree with how far you've taken this argument. As well as the HS full demos, there are single patch demos and we also have had some idea from the videos. Is it the same as hands on? No way. Would I dare criticise anyone else for buying HS on the basis of these (and other) demos? No way.



I don't criticize someone for buying based on those demos no hands on experience. I criticize people for saying it is better/worse than other libraries based on those demos and no hands on experience.

But many guys here will do what they always too, which is to over-hype libraries or over-diss them with little or no hands on experience (and frankly skills) because of who did the library, who does their demos, etc

OK, I'm done.


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## Hannes_F (May 17, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Mon May 17 said:


> 1. Never eat luncheon meat that sticks to the wall.



True.



> 2. Never, EVER, eat anything called 'headcheese'.



Not necessarily true. Believe it or not, my grandmother had a legendary headcheese receipe that she did not want to share, not even with my mother (her daughter-in-law) because she thought as long as she kept it ... her son would always return, at least for eating on sundays or so. Seriously. 

Better than any sausage product which is usually full of fat.

Oops, off topic.


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## dcoscina (May 17, 2010)

I'm not offended. I obviously have more money than brains or talent. 

Seriously though, I'm happy to be fortunate enough to have been able to afford this library. I hope Hollywood Brass is years away because HS basically ate up my music budget for 2010. Hence no SSD, no extra RAM. That was it. Which is fine. Between this and Studio One Pro, I'm happy producing some music and getting some money back for it.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

dexterflex @ Mon May 17 said:


> one thing for sure is DVZ strings got buried with LASS and Hollywood Strings.



DVZ strings got buried by their inability to get a product to marketplace that was stable, affordable, and could run on a reasonable number of machines. I am supposed to find out first hand this week how much of that has been rectified and I will report back if it happens.


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## choc0thrax (May 17, 2010)

Plus DVZ sounded pretty bad. Maybe by now they've somehow fixed that though.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Mon May 17 said:


> Plus DVZ sounded pretty bad. Maybe by now they've somehow fixed that though.



Not if you were actually in a room playing it, it didn't.


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## Mike Connelly (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Sat May 15 said:


> An opinion based on nothing more than listening to a few demos of a brand new deep library is better off not being voiced IMHO.



When demos are posted, people are going to have opinions about them and are going to voice those opinions. I think most people have the common sense to put those opinions into context, if you think they are useless then it's your prerogative not to read them. I don't see the point in lecturing others on whose opinions should be respected.



Ed @ Sun May 16 said:


> You don't think TJ's divisi demo is good? :|



Beautiful demo but doesn't sound especially divisi to me. Now that would be an interesting comparison, the same piece with HS divisi versus LASS divisi.



Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> choc0thrax @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Plus DVZ sounded pretty bad. Maybe by now they've somehow fixed that though.
> ...



Well, if it only sounds good if you're actually in the room playing it, then that's not a very useful sample library, is it? If it really sounds good, then why didn't they put up a demo of it sounding good?


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat May 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> ...



Obviously, either they did and certain people don't think it is good, which is subjective, or they did not and did not make having a really good mockup artist take the requisite time to do so much of a priority.

"Really sounds good" is a perception, not an empirical thing, and folks here are not the ultimate arbiters that many seem to think they are.

Bottom line, is that I trust my opinion of its potential while playing it more than I trust your opinion of its potential after listening to demos. 

I do not expect you to however :lol:


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## Mike Connelly (May 17, 2010)

Does DVZ have any demos up at all right now?


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon May 17 said:


> Does DVZ have any demos up at all right now?



No, the Audio Demos page is "under construction."


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## germancomponist (May 17, 2010)

So, is there a new HS-user demo anywhere?


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## Christian Marcussen (May 17, 2010)

I just (re-)listened to the Threnody-Divisi demo some 4-5 times... That is pretty awesome writing and sound. Incredible.


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## Ed (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> Obviously, either they did and certain people don't think it is good, which is subjective, or they did not and did not make having a really good mockup artist take the requisite time to do so much of a priority.



So GPO strings are just as good as Hollywood Strings, its all subjective. Right?


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## germancomponist (May 17, 2010)

Gentleman, back to the topic, please..... .


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Ed @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously, either they did and certain people don't think it is good, which is subjective, or they did not and did not make having a really good mockup artist take the requisite time to do so much of a priority.
> ...



Ah, reductio ad absurdum.


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## tripit (May 17, 2010)

I agree with Ashermusic to some extent, there are a lot of factors going into judging a library. But with that said, I did hear DVZ in a room (albeit I wasn't playing it) and I was not all that impressed with the sound quality. I did like the technical aspect for pursing divisi though.

On the other hand, I was impressed by LASS the first time I heard that in a room, and it was under the same conditions that I heard DVZ. And I could see instantly how great the divisi features of LASS would be. 

The demos for both gave me the same results: I loved the intimacy and overall sound of LASS, thought DVZ still sounded very poor. 

The bottom line is I would never buy DVZ, at least not unless it was sounding as good as LASS or others, both in a room and on demos. I don't know if they've improved it since I heard it, which was some time ago, but I think they had a long ways to go in the sound department.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

tripit @ Mon May 17 said:


> I agree with Ashermusic to some extent, there are a lot of factors going into judging a library. But with that said, I did hear DVZ in a room (albeit I wasn't playing it) and I was not all that impressed with the sound quality. I did like the technical aspect for pursing divisi though.
> 
> On the other hand, I was impressed by LASS the first time I heard that in a room, and it was under the same conditions that I heard DVZ. And I could see instantly how great the divisi features of LASS would be.
> 
> ...



See now that makes my point exactly. When I first heard LASS at NAMM, I was impressed with the functionality, the ART script, etc. but I did NOT like the sound. But people whose opinion I respected, notably Craig Sharmat, told me how good he thought it was so I reserved my judgement until I could get my hands on it.

And even before then, I did not go any forums dissing it. I talk about products I like, not ones I do not.


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## germancomponist (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> ...
> See now that makes my point exactly. When I first heard LASS at NAMM, I was impressed with the functionality, the ART script, etc. but I did NOT like the sound. But people whose opinion I respected, notably Craig Sharmat, told me how good he thought it was so I reserved my judgement until I could get my hands on it.
> 
> And even before then, I did not go any forums dissing it. I talk about products I like, not ones I do not.



+1


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## Ed (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ed @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> ...



Ah, so you do see there is a point where your logic breaks down then. It means you need to alter your argument since its logically incorrect.

Regarding DVZ, I think its clear they are in their own eccentric little world. If they had actually demonstrated their samples were good I could accept their bizarre behaviour and I could even accept their own ridiculously expensive proprietary systems as just something cool just not affordable to me; a rolls royce of sample libraries I would never be able to own, but as all we've heard are bad demos and mixed reports from live demonstrations but for some reason cannot be backed up by anything more solid, I really don't think I'm missing anything. Any success they have is based purely on the mystique surrounding them rather than any proof of the practical quality of the product IMO.


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## Mike Connelly (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> Obviously, either they did and certain people don't think it is good, which is subjective, or they did not and did not make having a really good mockup artist take the requisite time to do so much of a priority.



Do you really not see that you're leaving out another possibility?


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## midphase (May 17, 2010)

"But many guys here will do what they always too, which is to over-hype libraries or over-diss them with little or no hands on experience (and frankly skills) because of who did the library, who does their demos, etc "


I totally agree with Jay on this one. It is a lot like on Rotten Tomatoes when a new film comes out, there are always those guys who boast that it's the most awesome film ever made. Then the more level headed critics chime in and we all get the real story.


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## midphase (May 17, 2010)

Ok, one more thing in order to have full disclosure:

Some of us are friends with some of these developers, I do think this does bias us somewhat either towards praising something a bit too much, or dissing something a bit too much.

I think we all try to be as objective as possible, but to ignore this fact would be to be naive and I think it's important for others to keep that in mind when reading our posts (not that anyone actually follows what I say).

This thread is relating to HS, but the discussion has branched off to include other libraries, so I hope Nick and Doug won't feel that everything that's been said here is necessarily relating to their product (unless specifically indicated).

IMHO, I think HS sounds good from the demos. My biggest questions are regarding how much better would it make my music sound in day to day (ie. quick and dirty) usage, how resource hungry is it (will it integrate in my workflow), and can it easily do stuff that I can't do currently. All 3 of those questions unfortunately can't be answered by demos alone, and with all due respect with those who have just bought it...I think your opinion is in a month or two will be much more informative to me than it is right now.


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## germancomponist (May 17, 2010)

midphase @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ok, one more thing in order to have full disclosure:
> 
> Some of us are friends with some of these developers, I do think this does bias us somewhat either towards praising something a bit too much, or dissing something a bit too much.
> 
> ...



+100


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Ed @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Mon May 17 said:
> ...



My logic is fine. There is no subject in the world that I could not do the same to you. Reductio ad absurdum works on any topic.


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## Ed (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ed @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> ...



Well based on what you said GPO would have to apply as well, so why cant I apply your logic to that? When you say its subjective then it must be based on certain criteria that you don't believe GPO qualifies for, so therefore what is your criteria?


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

midphase @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ok, one more thing in order to have full disclosure:
> 
> Some of us are friends with some of these developers, I do think this does bias us somewhat either towards praising something a bit too much, or dissing something a bit too much.
> 
> ...



Speaking for myself, i would not describe myself as a "friend" of any developer. I worked for Chris Stone for a couple of weeks years ago but we have only talked a couple of times since then, mostly about DVZ.

I am "friendly" with Kirk Hunter but that came about because I encouraged him to do his libraries for the EXS24 because I like them. I know Andrew and I like him but we are not friends per se.

You and I assess our need for any given library exactly in the same manner Kays and I totally agree with your conclusion.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Ed @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Mon May 17 said:
> ...



You are talking about a library that sells for $170 so it clearly was not designed to have its strings compete with the other libraries we are discussing.

It is subjective for instance whether Mozart is a better composer than Beethoven but if someone argued that their 12 year old son was better than either it is fair to say that at that point it becomes rather silly.


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## Ed (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> You are talking about a library that sells for $170 so it clearly was not designed to have its strings compete with the other libraries we are discussing.



LASS costs $1399.
DVZ apparently costs $2499.00 (not including the proprietary systems you need presumably) 

I guess this means that DVZ must be better and incomparable to LASS since its so much more expensive. 

Now that I think about it the original Miroslav is just as expensive as it was 10 years ago if you want to buy the Akai discs. Does that mean Miroslav is comparable to LASS because its basically the same price? 

Why does price matter? How is that logical? 

We are comparing sound here, aren't we? Sound quality and realism, and you said that was subjective, so you cannot say one is better than the other. Please explain why price makes a difference. Your logic is getting worse.



> It is subjective for instance whether Mozart is a better composer than Beethoven but if someone argued that their 12 year old son was better than either it is fair to say that at that point it becomes rather silly.



But you are basically saying yes, Mozart is better than Beethoven if Mozart was homeless and Beethoven lived in a mansion and it cost much more to go and hear Beethoven's music. Lets look at the music, not how much it costs.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Ed @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > You are talking about a library that sells for $170 so it clearly was not designed to have its strings compete with the other libraries we are discussing.
> ...



Anyone who would expect that the string section of a $170 orchestra library is going to sound anywhere nearly as good as a $1400 string library is not using very sound logic because, surprise, surprise, yes, you usually do get what you pay for.


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## Mike Connelly (May 17, 2010)

To get back to the original statement (about DVZ)...



> Obviously, either they did and certain people don't think it is good, which is subjective, or they did not and did not make having a really good mockup artist take the requisite time to do so much of a priority.



I'm curious why you feel like the only possibilities are that the demos were good but people didn't like them as a matter of personal preference, or that the demos weren't that good but it was the fault of the guys doing the demos. Why do you rule out the possibility that if a demo doesn't sound that good, it might be the fault of the library?


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## Ed (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> [
> Anyone who would expect that the string section of a $170 orchestra library is going to sound anywhere nearly as good as a $1400 string library is not using very sound logic because, surprise, surprise, yes, you usually do get what you pay for.



Didn't answer my question for the third time, I guess that means I have my answer.

And you also appear to think DVZ has to be good because it costs a lot. I guess it being way overpriced by someone eccentric and out of touch isn't a possibility to you.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

midphase @ Mon May 17 said:


> Jay - You have to admit that there have been libraries which have been poorly conceived and executed regardless of the time, resources and money put into them. And other libraries which were indeed as good and solid as the hype said they were.



I readily concede it but I would never reach that conclusion based on demos.


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## Ed (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> I answered your question. When prices are above a certain entry level, regardless of the specific amount, there can be an expectation of competitiveness. For instance while they vary greatly in price, offering from BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar, are roughly competitive. Nobody intelligent would expect a Suzuki to be.
> 
> No I think DMV is _probably_ (not has to be) good because I played it myself at NAMM and thought it already had the potential to be quite good.



But you are saying DVZ's quality cannot be judged because you said its "subjective", while GPO cannot be defended in the same way, simply because of its *price*. 

Now you say you played it, fine. But others haven't and have been thoroughly unimpressed by all demos live or otherwise. 

Just remove the cost of the libraries, do you not have *any other criteria* to judge a sample library by?



> And I am told that the price will come way down, although I have no specifics yet. And yes, Chris is indeed eccentric and out of touch but I think this whole experience has been a reality check for him perhaps.



Thats obviously because no one is stupid enough to pay that much for it in its current state and their weird behaviour as a company. Chris said he wanted it to be expensive so only rich people could afford it, thats why he likened it to a Synclavier and expensive cars. Maybe he has realised not even rich people want it.


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## midphase (May 17, 2010)

Ed, the budget thing holds up a bit when you consider that the time and resources put into it limited the amount of samples and quality due to its initial conception as a budget orchestra. Plus we're talking about a library which encompasses the entire orchestra and not just strings.

A more fair comparison would be to compare Garritan Strings to HS, but in that case you have to factor in how old the library is and the fact that certain tools were not developed back then (like scripting). Nonetheless Garritan Strings revolutionized the way string libraries had been made up to that point, and if you go back and read some old Northern Sounds post, you'll see that people thought they were amazingly realistic strings.

Sonivox strings built on what Gary had done by recording with more ambience and a smaller section, and they still hold up quite favorably by today's standards, although the probably require more work to be put into them before they sound as good as what some of the newer libraries do effortlessly.

I think you have to create fair comparison guidelines, for example you can't fairly compare a PS1 game to an Xbox 360 title.

In this new generation of string libraries, the players are LASS, CS, HS and as Jay said DVZ (although I haven't heard a peep from them in years). They all use scripting and have access to the latest sampling technologies and knowhow to do what they do. They also all inhabit the same general price range (ie. not the low budget/student/amateur range), especially if as Jay says DVZ will be offered at a much reduced price.

I do have to agree that if someone like Colin did a demo for CS, they would probably be selling more copies (I think after reading this Colin might start collecting a percentage of the sales) and I think CS kinda shot themselves in the foot a bit by not having totally kick ass demos. Same thing could probably be said for DVZ, they handled their public announcements and perception horribly IMHO.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

midphase @ Mon May 17 said:


> In this new generation of string libraries, the players are LASS, CS, HS and as Jay said DVZ (although I haven't heard a peep from them in years). They all use scripting and have access to the latest sampling technologies and knowhow to do what they do. They also all inhabit the same general price range (ie. not the low budget/student/amateur range), especially if as Jay says DVZ will be offered at a much reduced price.



I would include Kirk HunteròÇ[   Ò†ŸÇ[   Ò† Ç[   Ò†¡Ç[   Ò†¢Ç[


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## Mike Connelly (May 17, 2010)

I must be lost, I thought this was the HS user demos threads...when did it turn into the Jay's Essays On How We Should All Judge A Library thread?


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## Ed (May 17, 2010)

I see this argument (unsurprisingly with the same people) will go the same way as the previous one. I dont have the stamina to go through all that again.


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## choc0thrax (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> And sure, also listen to some demos but weigh the users you respect opinions more heavily.



I know I generally only respect the opinions of the members here who I think compose great and realistic sounding pieces, which means I only respect a handful of people's opinions. TJ, Colin...and a few others. The problem is these are always the people involved in the libraries and you can't trust them to be impartial.

On top of that I disagree. I feel you should always trust your ears and listen to the demos and weigh that more heavily than the opinions of others. Maybe if I were 4 years old and drinking grape juice out of a sippy cup I'd need others to make these decisions for me but I think what matters most is what you, yourself think, not some other dude. What's your gut instinct when you first hear a library? Nothing trumps that.

Of course playing a library before purchase gives a way better picture of what the lib is really like but not that many developers are on Trysounds.


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## choc0thrax (May 17, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon May 17 said:


> And I'd like to ask people to please give their honest opinions of libraries (all libraries, not just HS), not limit things to only positive comments - if there are issues with a library, I'd sure like to know about it before deciding whether to buy it.
> 
> Could you even imagine someone on a forum about cars or restaurants insisting that people only make comments if they are positive and otherwise keep their mouth shut?



Jay's just mad this place isn't like NS. He's probably not used to what normal forums are like.


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon May 17 said:


> And I'd like to ask people to please give their honest opinions of libraries (all libraries, not just HS), not limit things to only positive comments - if there are issues with a library, I'd sure like to know about it before deciding whether to buy it.
> 
> Could you even imagine someone on a forum about cars or restaurants insisting that people only make comments if they are positive and otherwise keep their mouth shut?



We ALL agree with that. That is why we are here. The issue is at what point do you consider yourself qualified to give an opinion? An opinion that is not based on first hand experience but only listening to a handful of demos is USELESS.

Let me put it another way.

An experienced composer buys a library, spends several days working with it, and posts a favorable opinion. Along comes another composer who as far as we can tell is certainly not a better or more experienced composer, listens to the demos and posts some negative things about it.

Would any intelligent person give those 2 opinions the same weight, because after all, "it's only my opinion?"


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## choc0thrax (May 17, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > And I'd like to ask people to please give their honest opinions of libraries (all libraries, not just HS), not limit things to only positive comments - if there are issues with a library, I'd sure like to know about it before deciding whether to buy it.
> ...



Maybe what we need is an opinion moderator. A moderator that goes through everyone's opinion on a library and then analyzes whether their opinion matters or not. Have they only listened to demos? Have they tried the library? How long is their resume? Are they just a hobbyist? After going through the checklist the moderator can they see whether the post should be removed or not.


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## Mike Connelly (May 17, 2010)

Again, we're back to "don't talk about demos!"

That's just not going to happen, so you might as well quit beating that dead horse. And I'm not sure why you think you're in a position to tell other people what to do. This isn't your forum, is it?


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon May 17 said:


> Again, we're back to "don't talk about demos!"
> 
> That's just not going to happen, so you might as well quit beating that dead horse. And I'm not sure why you think you're in a position to tell other people what to do. This isn't your forum, is it?



I am trying to encourage people to hold themselves to a higher standard of critical evaluation of someone's hard work than a knee-jerk reactions to demos. I am fully aware that it probably will not work.


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## Ed (May 17, 2010)

For the record I think opinions of users matter a lot, however not ALL users matter to me. Like Choco certain members I know I have a very different view of what I consider "quality" than others. For example Asher likes the sound of Kirk Hunter, he has said that many times. Therefore I know I do not trust his judgement. I also don't trust Dave's judgement either necessarily however I trust his more, so the fact that he likes HS so much even though I dont see it sounding good in his demos (sorry) still means something to me. People like TJ (unless he is involved in the library) Colin, Troels, etc opinions matter since I think if they think it sounds good I know it probably is somehow. 

If a bunch of people like GPO (there are such people) then say HS is good even if they have used it personally I'm less inclined to see that as some kind of reigning endorsement. In fact, if that happened, their positive view of the library would be completely irrelevant to me. If someone I did consider credible is saying DVZ is okay after having played with it for 5 minutes at a tradeshow I do doubt this, but I am prepared to give it some benefit of doubt because of that. Ie. There must be some reason why they would say that. But I just see absolutely no other reason why I should especially as some people have mixed receptions to it. I tend to think that if it was the bees knees it would obviously be good, it wouldn't have this massive void where positive feedback should be.


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## tripit (May 17, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Mon May 17 said:


> Maybe what we need is an opinion moderator. A moderator that goes through everyone's opinion on a library and then analyzes whether their opinion matters or not. Have they only listened to demos? Have they tried the library? How long is their resume? Are they just a hobbyist? After going through the checklist the moderator can they see whether the post should be removed or not.



I nominate you for that thankless job :mrgreen:


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## Ashermusic (May 17, 2010)

Ed @ Mon May 17 said:


> For the record I think opinions of users matter a lot, however not ALL users matter to me. Like Choco certain members I know I have a very different view of what I consider "quality" than others. For example Asher likes the sound of Kirk Hunter, he has said that many times. Therefore I know I do not trust his judgement. I also don't trust Dave's judgement either necessarily however I trust his more, so the fact that he likes HS so much even though I dont see it sounding good in his demos (sorry) still means something to me. People like TJ (unless he is involved in the library) Colin, Troels, etc opinions matter since I think if they think it sounds good I know it probably is somehow.
> 
> If a bunch of people like GPO (there are such people) then say HS is good even if they have used it personally I'm less inclined to see that as some kind of reigning endorsement. In fact, if that happened, their positive view of the library would be completely irrelevant to me. If someone I did consider credible is saying DVZ is okay after having played with it for 5 minutes at a tradeshow I do doubt this, but I am prepared to give it some benefit of doubt because of that. Ie. There must be some reason why they would say that. But I just see absolutely no other reason why I should especially as some people have mixed receptions to it. I tend to think that if it was the bees knees it would obviously be good, it wouldn't have this massive void where positive feedback should be.



That is all fair enough. I only have a small number of people whose opinions I trust too. Generally, they are people who have "been there, done that."

Once again, my only beef is with those who would pass judgement and say harsh things about a library based solely on a few demos. I just do not consider it a fair approach to a devloper, but clearly my view is a minority one.


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## dcoscina (May 17, 2010)

I like it. I use it. I'm happy with results . Do I care what anyone else thinks? Not really. I shelled out the dough and feel the expense was well worth it.

Some of you might use what I say or some quick off the cuff demos to decide for yourselves, some might wait, others will plunge in.


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## Pzy-Clone (May 17, 2010)

...but are people saying "harsh" things about HS now?

WHY oh WHY must every thread involving the word "strings" be turned into some weird 
"A DVZ ate my Kirk`s Hamster" abomination?


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## midphase (May 17, 2010)

I don't think anyone has said anything harsher about anything...not even GPO.

If I understand this correctly, Jay feels that demos alone might not give you the entire picture (and I agree), while Ed seems to be fine making his purchasing decisions based on demos alone (but he doesn't poop on endorsements if they are coming from individuals that he respects).

I think that's it...but ultimately everyone must make their purchasing decisions based on what's important to them specifically and their financial situation and nothing more....there is no right or wrong way.


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## NYC Composer (May 17, 2010)

These arguments tend to reach a crescendo after which further debate becomes pointless. I think those who are smart enough to know when that point is reached are simply being self indulgent. (I was going to add 'and puerile', but that would have been childish).


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 17, 2010)

This is also a matter of technology progression perspective.

Think about this for a second. Earlier string sounds quite inferior due to us hearing LASS, CS, HS, etc.

How many of you heard SO when it first came out? I was AMAZED at the sound they got, the realistic tones. Now it just doesn't sound as good as it did back then.

Once you've heard something notably better to your ears, it's hard to look back on the libs you once thought were amazing.

There have been so many cases in my mind when I've said "Wow...I'm not sure if samples will get any better than this." and they have continuously.

So really the matter of comparing one lib to another, can be hard to do nowadays, because several years back there were very few sample companies making competitive libraries. Now we have like...what....5+ companies all within each others abilities?


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## NYC Composer (May 17, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Tue May 18 said:


> This is also a matter of technology progression perspective.
> 
> Think about this for a second. Earlier string sounds quite inferior due to us hearing LASS, CS, HS, etc.
> 
> ...



And aren't we incredibly lucky, having these talented, dedicated composers deciding to obsess about the very thing _we_ obsess about? Regardless of whether the ultimate motive is profit or personal satisfaction, there always seems to be an inherent aspiration to raise the bar higher. Nick often speaks about this. The TH guys as well.

Who needs bread when you have new, amazing samples?? Future's so bright/shades.


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## choc0thrax (May 17, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Tue May 18 said:


> How many of you heard SO when it first came out? I was AMAZED at the sound they got, the realistic tones. Now it just doesn't sound as good as it did back then.



I remember when it first came out. I certainly wasn't amazed. Even TJ's demos didn't sound all that real.


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## NYC Composer (May 18, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Tue May 18 said:


> Nathan Allen Pinard @ Tue May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > How many of you heard SO when it first came out? I was AMAZED at the sound they got, the realistic tones. Now it just doesn't sound as good as it did back then.
> ...



And I was blown the fck away. Maybe because compared to what had been there before, I saw the possibilities of that level of samples advancing my career? Did you not see it that way? Or did you think the other stuff that was around at the time was equal to SO?


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## Pzy-Clone (May 18, 2010)

midphase @ Tue May 18 said:


> I don't think anyone has said anything harsher about anything...not even GPO.
> 
> If I understand this correctly, Jay feels that demos alone might not give you the entire picture (and I agree), while Ed seems to be fine making his purchasing decisions based on demos alone (but he doesn't poop on endorsements if they are coming from individuals that he respects).
> 
> I think that's it...but ultimately everyone must make their purchasing decisions based on what's important to them specifically and their financial situation and nothing more....there is no right or wrong way.



well, i havent read thru this entire thread...but the only real harsh-ish comment i read was from "the Heresy/Requiem" , and it seems he is no longer with us.

Where are all these horribly unfair and harsh comments?

From what i heard the demo material sounds very nice indeed, but i suppose im not allowed to say that before i spend 1500 on it?

Personally i`m interested in how the crossfades react, which is a big part of how the lib works, or i think so atleast...but are they not customisable , im curious to how smooth, musical and functional they are?

For instance i hate the way VSL crossfades, it takes forever and forever to get the cc data right. 

Also another main appeal to me, are the short articulations...but they have not been that well presented yet, or atleast i didnt hear too much of them.

I would get this if i had the budget for it , no doubt. Even tho i am extremely sceptical towards PLAY, and also that it does not work yet in VEPro.

But unfortunatly i suddenly have to pay a ridiculously high bill for my cat`s surgery, so im not getting this, or even Requiem ...bah, so it would have been better if it did actualy suck :(

Yeah and i hope the EW communist Choirs suck too, as well as their brass.
And hopefully Requiem is made up of only latin phrases that are sung with a overpronounced American Accent  WRRRRequiaaaaauhmmmm.

Basically, anything i dont own or cant afford sucks by default.
Is that not what it usualy boils down to anyway, if somone makes a positive comment towards something you can be pretty sure they spendt money on it and vice versa.


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## Pzy-Clone (May 18, 2010)

Oh and BTW..the store where i usualy order non-dloadable software and stuff has Hollywood Strings GOLD listed together with the Diamond Edition available....?

So its happenig after all, or they simply fkd it up at the stores webshop?


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## Ed (May 18, 2010)

midphase @ Mon May 17 said:


> If I understand this correctly, Jay feels that demos alone might not give you the entire picture (and I agree), while Ed seems to be fine making his *purchasing decisions based on demos alone*



Not at all, my position was that Jay claims that "its all subjective" but draws the line at including GPO in this because of price (he says that its absurd to compare GPO). I'm saying that remove all prices from the equation and there are other criteria to base things on. Clearly its NOT "all subjective" and there is something even Jay accepts as better. He suggests we cant criticise DVZ because "its all subjective" presumably because DVZ costs such a lot. I think thats illogical, Jim.


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## Ashermusic (May 18, 2010)

Ed @ Tue May 18 said:


> midphase @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > If I understand this correctly, Jay feels that demos alone might not give you the entire picture (and I agree), while Ed seems to be fine making his *purchasing decisions based on demos alone*
> ...



For the 15th time Ed , price has nothing to do with why you should not publicly dismiss it. It is because you have no experience with it other than a few bad demos. And yes it is subjective. There are people who will tell you that in their mind the best sounding a=strings are still the old Roland and Kutrzweil strings or GOS or MV ,etc.

The price is only a factor in that it tells you what the product his designed to compete with. When DVZ announced its ridiculously high prices, they sent a message that they meant it to be an elite string library. Clearly, they have not delivered on that. Time will tell if they ever do. 

When EW announced its high price for HS, they sent a message that they meant it to be an elite string library. Time will tell if they have. 

When Andrew announced his relatively high price for LASS, he sent a message that he meant it to be an elite string library. In the perception of most it seems, he did so.

When Cinematic Strings announced its relatively low price, they sent a message that they wanted to be an elite string library but they also wanted to be a bargain. Seemingly, it is.

When Garritan announced his very low price for GPO, he sent a message that they did not mean for it to be an elite string library but a good affordable tool for hobbyists and at that level it has been successful.

Kirk Hunter did the same with Emerald and was successful with it. With Ruby and now Concert Strings II he has upped the league he is shooting for. I think he has succeeded and so do some high profile composers but most of you probably will not. Which is fine.

And if you don't get it now, then you are willfully being obdurate, as Kays suggested.


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## Ed (May 18, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue May 18 said:


> For the 15th time Ed , price has nothing to do with why you should not publicly dismiss it. It is because you have no experience with it other than a few bad demos. And yes it is subjective. There are people who will tell you that in their mind the best sounding a=strings are still the old Roland and Kutrzweil strings or GOS or MV ,etc.



And why cant you include GPO in that list? There are people who honestly do think that sounds good, yet you claim its absurd to allow GPO in your logic of "its subjective", so I presume even you realise GPO doesn't sound good. Your sole reason for this appears to be price, rather than how good it sounds on its own. 

I can say GPO sounds bad regardless of price, but then I can say that it doesnt cost much and works fine as a sketch pad so what do I expect? Or, I can say that DVZ sounds crap AND that it is ridiculously overpriced. Its two separate issues, price and sound/realism. 

I can say a real player sounds bad, but that he only cost $20 an hour so what do I expect? Or I can say that an expensive player costing $100 a minute sounds bad AND that he is ridiculously overpriced. My idea of quality doesn't change based on the price, what its WORTH might.



> The price is only a factor in that it tells you what the product his designed to compete with. When DVZ announced its ridiculously high prices, they sent a message that they meant it to be an elite string library. Clearly, they have not delivered on that. Time will tell if they ever do.



You say that CS is a budget string library however the price difference between LASS and CS is *far *smaller than the price difference between LASS and DVZ. Therefore according to your logic, we must not be able to compare LASS to DVZ. I also see you are now deciding what is an "elite" library based on some arbitrary figure. Why does LASS get to be in the "elite" club while CS does not? 



> When Garritan announced his very low price for GPO, he sent a message that they did not mean for it to be an elite string library but a good affordable tool for hobbyists and at that level it has been successful.
> .



For the nth time, GPO was only claimed to be an entry level hobbyist sketch pad library until quite sometime after people were giving him a hard time on how poor it sounded. Originally it was just marketed as a library on par with VSL and QLSO, just with a different sound. You see he also used to use the whole "its subjective" logic . I'm sure plenty of old NS users can attest to how Gary used to market it. Why do you think people gave Gary such a hard time? If he had marketed it as a sketch pad/hobbyist library to start with and not at all designed to compete with the professional products on the market no one would have had such harsh words for it.


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## Ashermusic (May 18, 2010)

You are either purposely being dense or you are dumber than squirrels. I'm through.


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## wqaxsz (May 18, 2010)

Hi, 
i know some people like to talk,
but it would be useful if other people 
could post more technical demos 
or simple melodic lines.

thank you 
regardos

Bablitowood.


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## Ed (May 18, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue May 18 said:


> You are either purposely being dense or you are dumber than squirrels. I'm through.



Ah the dumber than squirrels line again. Good one Jay :lol:


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## choc0thrax (May 18, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Tue May 18 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Nathan Allen Pinard @ Tue May 18 said:
> ...



Hard to remember but I remember thinking that back then SISS had the best strings, VSL had the best woodwinds, Project SAM had my favourite brass etc. so EWQLSO didn't beat anything for me. It was a jack of all trades, master of none at a good price. Plus I remember TJ's demo he quickly did with the VSL perf set called "Remembering the Past" which was a lot better than his EWQLSO demos stuff.


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## Mike Connelly (May 18, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> Once again, my only beef is with those who would pass judgement and say harsh things about a library based solely on a few demos. I just do not consider it a fair approach to a devloper, but clearly my view is a minority one.



I assume you're talking about DVZ since there really hasn't been anything harsh said about HS?

If a company releases bad demos, people are probably going to say harsh things about them. And if they don't actually release the library months or years later, then those demos are all people have to talk about. I don't see how that's unfair to the developer.

If it really is a great library after all, the dev can get that across by releasing some decent demos. And actually release the product so people can use it and see how it is.

But DVZ hasn't done any of that. I'm sure people would be happy to discuss more than the pricing and the demos, but at this point the ball is in the dev's court.

What's really odd is that you're complaining about someone else's criticism of DVZ while at the same time agreeing that the pricing is way too high, the demos were bad, and that they haven't delivered. At this point any "harsh" discussion about DVZ is a moot point anyway since the library isn't for sale (and may never be?) so none of us have to decide if we want to buy it.

But could this all possibly be any more off topic in a thread about HS? If you really want to talk about DVZ, would it be so hard to start a new thread about it?


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## Ashermusic (May 18, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Tue May 18 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Once again, my only beef is with those who would pass judgement and say harsh things about a library based solely on a few demos. I just do not consider it a fair approach to a devloper, but clearly my view is a minority one.



I assume you're talking about DVZ since there really hasn't been anything harsh said about HS?

If a company releases bad demos, people are probably going to say harsh things about them. And if they don't actually release the library months or years later, then those demos are all people have to talk about. I don't see how that's unfair to the developer.

If it really is a great library after all, the dev can get that across by releasing some decent demos. And actually release the product so people can use it and see how it is.

But DVZ hasn't done any of that. I'm sure people would be happy to discuss more than the pricing and the demos, but at this point the ball is in the dev's court.

What's really odd is that you're complaining about someone else's criticism of DVZ while at the same time agreeing that the pricing is way too highòÈp   Ò¿¹Èp   Ò¿ºÈp   Ò¿»Èq   Ò¿¼Èq   Ò¿½Èq   Ò¿¾Èq   Ò¿¿Èq   Ò¿ÀÈq   Ò¿ÁÈq   Ò¿ÂÈq   Ò¿ÃÈq   Ò¿ÄÈq   Ò¿ÅÈq   Ò¿ÆÈq   Ò¿ÇÈq   Ò¿ÈÈq   Ò¿ÉÈq   Ò¿ÊÈq   Ò¿ËÈq   Ò¿ÌÈq   Ò¿ÍÈq   Ò¿ÎÈq   Ò¿ÏÈq   Ò¿ÐÈq   Ò¿ÑÈq   Ò¿ÒÈq   Ò¿ÓÈq   Ò¿ÔÈq   Ò¿ÕÈq   Ò¿ÖÈq   Ò¿×Èq   Ò¿ØÈq   Ò¿ÙÈq   Ò¿ÚÈq   Ò¿ÛÈq   Ò¿ÜÈq   Ò¿ÝÈq   Ò¿ÞÈq   Ò¿ßÈq   Ò¿àÈq   Ò¿áÈq   Ò¿âÈq   Ò¿ãÈq   Ò¿äÈq   Ò¿åÈq   Ò¿æÈq   Ò¿çÈq   Ò¿èÈq   Ò¿éÈq   Ò¿êÈq   Ò¿ëÈq   Ò¿ìÈq   Ò¿íÈq   Ò¿îÈq   Ò¿ïÈq   Ò¿ðÈq   Ò¿ñÈq   Ò¿òÈq   Ò¿óÈq   Ò¿ôÈq   Ò¿õÈq   Ò¿öÈq   Ò¿÷Èq   Ò¿øÈq   Ò¿ùÈq   Ò¿úÈq   Ò¿ûÈq   Ò¿üÈq   Ò¿ýÈq   Ò¿þÈq   Ò¿ÿÈq   ÒÀ Èq   ÒÀ


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## Mike Connelly (May 18, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Tue May 18 said:


> I responded to someone saying that HS short articulations were very inferior to LASS when that person had not even played them.



Where did anyone say that HS short articulations were "very inferior to LASS"?

Personally, I like the LASS short articulations and haven't yet heard that kind of sound from HS - anyone with HS find an articulation with a similar character? There have been a couple demos done with both HS and LASS, more of those would be very welcome.


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## wst3 (May 18, 2010)

If I might interject an observation or two...

First, this is horses for courses from start to finish. What works for one composer may not work for another, regardless of experience, etc.

Second - a craftsman can do wonders with poor tools, and a novice may not be able to get past the gate with great ones. 

Third, and I think this is the important one here, we have shot ourselves in the foot with respect to the tools we use!

When I was but a young lad I could go sweep floors, or solder patch bays at any number of local studios, and in return I could spend hours playing with microphones and processors I could not possibly afford! And that's on top of watching the engineers use their tools and witnessing the results.

When I was not quite as young I could visit any number of friends studios and test drive different sequencers, or samplers, or sample libraries. And to a degree I can still do that, but none of my friends are in a position to own all the libraries these days, there are too many and they are too expensive.

And I'd guess that many of you are still in that position as well. Someone you know has product X in their studio, and for the price of a pizza, or maybe dinner at a decent restaurant you can go test drive at least some of the libraries.

The VAST majority of folks are not so fortunate. My studio is in my home now - which is really pretty cool for me, but I'm less likely to let a complete stranger come in and play around... my family lives there, and like it or not, that's a real concern.

So while the personal studio concept is great for established folks, it isn't so good for those just coming up. And if I ever doubted that logic this thread certainly reinforces it!

Lastly, there is no one tool, one library, one anything that fits all. I think the current crop of string libraries are pretty impressive for all the reasons listed earlier... but for the time being I am going to limp along with GOS because (a) I have a decent idea of how to get it to do things I want it to do, and (b) I can't get any real cockpit time with the new libraries, and I can't afford to speculate!

Fortunately for me my needs these days tend to run more towards specialized libraries, and folks like Tonehammer, Cinesamples, Sonokinetic, and Bela D are all catering to my needs with small, reasonably priced libraries that meet specific requirements. I am a lot more willing to gamble on a $100 library than I am on a $1000 library!

As far as demos go... they are a mixed bag... a really well executed demo can tell you what one person could do with that tool, but there is no guarantee that everyone will get the same level of results. Anyone remember the demo sequence built into the original Proteus? Anyone ever get all those tricks working for them?

A bad demo, on the other hand, is just bad news. It will hurt sales whether it is from the developer or from a user. That's too bad too.

What we really need, IMHO, is demos accompanied by the MIDI files that created them. That would provide a very interesting glimpse behind the curtain. I wonder why more developers don't do that.


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## synergy543 (May 18, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Tue May 18 said:


> Ashermusic @ Tue May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I responded to someone saying that HS short articulations were very inferior to LASS when that person had not even played them.
> ...


http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... &start=264

Nick came out just after this to refute that conclusion (from a guy who hasn't used it and seemed to be posting just to agitate others - he's since been banned).

I think its rash conclusions such as these from guys who never used the lib that are irritating some members. Their comments are different than well-thought out criticism and more like rude flatulence in the midst of a serious discussion. The stink and intended rudness is hard for some to ignore. But hey, it seems to be the nature of an internet forum that there will always be some troll who's goal it seems is soley to agitate others.


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## Mike Connelly (May 18, 2010)

synergy543 @ Tue May 18 said:


> http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?=16387&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=264 (http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... &amp;start=264)



That doesn't say "very inferior" at all, he says he thinks LASS short articulations may be better, but you'd have to be incredibly thin skinned to consider that "harsh" or trolling. Especially when in the same post he says he'll probably consider HS once the technical demands are more easily met.



wst3 @ Tue May 18 said:


> What we really need, IMHO, is demos accompanied by the MIDI files that created them. That would provide a very interesting glimpse behind the curtain. I wonder why more developers don't do that.



Great point, at the levels these libraries are at, if you can't play all of them personally, I think the next best thing is hearing the same material done with multiple libraries for comparison.


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## Ed (May 18, 2010)

Personally I think HS sounds really really nice, possibly the best thing on the market. However the system requirements and stability seems insane (_I should really only use that word for DVZ I apologise_) so thats what puts me off.


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## José Herring (May 18, 2010)

synergy543 @ Tue May 18 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Tue May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Tue May 18 said:
> ...



I think banning the guy is a little extreme. Really he's no more agitating than some other members here. Is banning him really the right move? He hasn't said anything that agitated me.

Jose


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## synergy543 (May 18, 2010)

I didn't ban him (I don't have that power). I actually don't know why he was banned (just saw that myself btw) but certainly it must've been for more than that. I know he had two identities also so maybe that was it? And he was being fairly insulting to one of the mods (prolly not a good idea huh?)

He actually had some interesting comments although he was sort of flooding the forum at one point - not unlike some other's who I will name as "Ed". :lol:


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## Christian Marcussen (May 18, 2010)

Why was he banned?


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## Ed (May 18, 2010)

synergy543 @ Tue May 18 said:


> I didn't ban him (I don't have that power). I actually don't know why he was banned but certainly it must've been for more than that. I know he had two identities also so maybe that was it? And he was being fairly insulting to one of the mods (prolly not a good idea huh?)



Well... he claimed I pirated Symphonic Choirs for no reason.


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## choc0thrax (May 18, 2010)

Ed @ Tue May 18 said:


> synergy543 @ Tue May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't ban him (I don't have that power). I actually don't know why he was banned but certainly it must've been for more than that. I know he had two identities also so maybe that was it? And he was being fairly insulting to one of the mods (prolly not a good idea huh?)
> ...



Weird. I'm sure you had your reasons.


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## Ed (May 18, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Tue May 18 said:


> Ed @ Tue May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > synergy543 @ Tue May 18 said:
> ...


 :lol:


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## mathis (May 18, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Fri May 07 said:


> JohnG @ Fri May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Ironically, "nearly good" samples worsen the problem.
> ...



Ha! It's the same for me! Maybe I should go back to GPO...


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## NYC Composer (May 18, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Tue May 18 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Tue May 18 said:
> ...



That's a fair point, and I think you're right about the individual libraries. I couldn't afford them all. I couldn't really even afford SO Platinum, and ended up with Gold at the first serious discount. Gold at something like $500 was an amazing deal. If the individual samples weren't the 'best', they were a major upgrade for me at the time. I eventually upgraded to Platinum. The ultimate price of Platinum for me was probably less than any of the individual libraries you mention, so I guess as much as anything, I'm talking about bang for the buck.


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## choc0thrax (May 18, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Tue May 18 said:


> choc0thrax @ Tue May 18 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Tue May 18 said:
> ...



And you can thank GPO for a Gold EWQLSO existing. I remember Doug saying they wouldn't compromise their library by offering stripped down versions until GPO showed up and ka-ching! We were blessed with Gold and Silver.


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## Mike Connelly (May 18, 2010)

I wonder how long it will take to see the same thing happen with HS?


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## givemenoughrope (May 18, 2010)

Have they completely ruled out a 16-bit option for HS ala SO Platinum Plus? With Windows 7 64 bit, that's a great idea for writing. Works great for LASS.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (May 18, 2010)

> The price is only a factor in that it tells you what the product his designed to compete with. When DVZ announced its ridiculously high prices, they sent a message that they meant it to be an elite string library. Clearly, they have not delivered on that. Time will tell if they ever do.



Do you have CS? CS may not have tons of arts, but it's a fantastic legato library.

And yes, I"m saying that with experience.

If you in fact, don't own CS then you are basically going against what you've been saying before.


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## Ashermusic (May 18, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Tue May 18 said:


> > The price is only a factor in that it tells you what the product his designed to compete with. When DVZ announced its ridiculously high prices, they sent a message that they meant it to be an elite string library. Clearly, they have not delivered on that. Time will tell if they ever do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How so? I made no comment on whether I like it or not.


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## stevenson-again (May 18, 2010)

> Personally I think HS sounds really really nice, possibly the best thing on the market. However the system requirements and stability seems insane (I should really only use that word for DVZ I apologise) so thats what puts me off.



i think you will find that there will be simpler patches that will be more than adequate for current systems and the more detailed patches are 'future-proofing' against the continuing technological advancement. even then, if you can load your template separately from your songs, with the benefit of lots of RAM i am pretty sure you would get all the performance you need (for 95% of situations). it's just that your template might load 12Gb into RAM instead of 4, meaning you should load your template BEFORE breakfast.


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## Sovereign (May 19, 2010)

Nick, or anyone else,

Is it possible to spread HS over multiple drives?


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## noiseboyuk (May 19, 2010)

givemenoughrope @ Tue May 18 said:


> Have they completely ruled out a 16-bit option for HS ala SO Platinum Plus? With Windows 7 64 bit, that's a great idea for writing. Works great for LASS.



What's this? The prospect of using a third less resources on this gargantuan library for no discernible quality difference? Madness...

[ducks]


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## Justus (May 19, 2010)

When was the last time a client told you
"That's a 16 bit file, right? But I want 24 bit!!!"


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## johncarter (May 19, 2010)

Justus @ Wed May 19 said:


> When was the last time a client told you
> "That's a 16 bit file, right? But I want 24 bit!!!"



Why not simply convert it to 24 bit ? XD


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## Justus (May 19, 2010)

johncarter @ Wed May 19 said:


> Justus @ Wed May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > When was the last time a client told you
> ...



o-[][]-o


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## midphase (May 19, 2010)

I'm contractually required to deliver all of my music at 24bit.


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## Mike Connelly (May 19, 2010)

Does that mean that you have to use 24 bit samples? Because even with 16 bit samples, your final mix should have 24 bit information.


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## José Herring (May 19, 2010)

Justus @ Wed May 19 said:


> When was the last time a client told you
> "That's a 16 bit file, right? But I want 24 bit!!!"



Almost all my clients specify 24bit 48k for final delivery. They aren't as dumb as people think. They are use to working in Final Cut or Avid and Protools these days. So filmmakers are pretty tech saavy.


Jose


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## givemenoughrope (May 19, 2010)

For the 16 bit option, I meant that I'd use that just for writing/programming. I'm finding that loading and unloading many and large patches in K4 and PLAY does actually "give the RAM back" and return it to where it was so that I can load other patches without restarting a few times a day...unlike my Mac Pro...

So, 16 bit would be worthwhile for me and I'm sure many others. That would certainly mean that I'd need a larger SSD for HS, already pricey now....


------------------

Also, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to wait for the dust to settle before getting HS. I'm still getting everything smoothed out with LASS and I'm thinking of HS as something to compliment LASS. I'm not sure if that's the right expectation to have or not, like if they are able to be blended well....? I'm curious to know from users of both like dcoscina.


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## midphase (May 19, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed May 19 said:


> Does that mean that you have to use 24 bit samples? Because even with 16 bit samples, your final mix should have 24 bit information.



If it's an option then yes. I like to believe that part of what I bring to the table along with my compositional skills is the attention to detail when it comes to the technical things. Using 24bit samples as opposed to using 16 bit versions and upconverting a 16bit mix to 24 feels like I wouldn't be earning my money the right way.


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## Mike Connelly (May 19, 2010)

I have to wonder how many of these clients (if any) would be able to tell a 24 bit file generated from 24 bit instrument samples versus a 24 bit file generated from 16 bit samples.

Sure, quality is important, but there are different facets to quality - I'd argue that the ability to load more articulations and to be more confident that your system will be able to handle everything without audio glitches may outweigh a few extra bits that 99% of listeners won't hear anyway.


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## Leon Willett (May 19, 2010)

this is completely true. Being able to load 50% more stuff is far more important.


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## midphase (May 19, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed May 19 said:


> Sure, quality is important, but there are different facets to quality - I'd argue that the ability to load more articulations and to be more confident that your system will be able to handle everything without audio glitches may outweigh a few extra bits that 99% of listeners won't hear anyway.




Oh yeah...the "nobody can tell the difference anyway" argument. I heard that one many times before. If nobody could tell the difference then why would Nick and co- have bothered I wonder? I wonder why all Hollywood studio work are done strictly at 24bit resolution? As far as I'm concerned, 24bit is the new de-facto standard in the industry that I work in, and to my ears it is an improvement.

How about this....I get to use 24bit samples AND I get to score the way I want with no compromises. Pretty cool huh?


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## Peter Alexander (May 19, 2010)

It's not whether the client can tell the difference it's whether I can. Listening on KRK VXT8's I can hear the difference on certain libraries between 16- and 24-bit and 24-bit is better for me.


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## germancomponist (May 19, 2010)

The different is there, for sure.

But, a 16bit version would be cool for all composers who have not bought these SSD things... . 

Just only for composing it would be cool to have a 16bit version. Yes, no?


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## givemenoughrope (May 19, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed May 19 said:


> We did some tests and 16 bit did not improve performance noticeably. It does save a bit of ram. We were dismayed at how ewqlso gold made most people forget platinum existed and we wanted to be sure this didn't happen with HS. Making a lite version of HS is tricky. We are not ruling it out, but at this point we are concentrating on program updates so HS potential is fully realized.



Good to know. I guess if you just stick with basic patches for writing (kinda like you said the that last tutorial) it won't get to heavy on the RAM. Even with a dedicated I7 slave, 12 GB RAM and an SSD, I'm not expecting to load more than what I need at that moment, hopefully just a few patches of each section at a time.


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## Frederick Russ (May 19, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed May 19 said:


> ... a full mix of 16 bit samples has the potential to have a dynamic range well beyond a 16 bit recording. Done wrong, it will just be the same range as 16 bit.



I agree with this. It really depends of the method and dithering algorithm. Same also kind of applies to down-converting 96k to 48k or 44.1k - sample rate conversion differs with the software used but done right you can somewhat (note I used the word somewhat) emulate the sonic benefit of 96k bandwidth with 44.1k without the subsequent limitations of CPU and RAM hit to DAW,


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## germancomponist (May 19, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed May 19 said:


> We did some tests and 16 bit did not improve performance noticeably. It does save a bit of ram. We were dismayed at how ewqlso gold made most people forget platinum existed and we wanted to be sure this didn't happen with HS. Making a lite version of HS is tricky. We are not ruling it out, but at this point we are concentrating on program updates so HS potential is fully realized.



Nick, I love the sound from HS! (incidentally) o/~


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## germancomponist (May 19, 2010)

Frederick Russ @ Wed May 19 said:


> Mike Connelly @ Wed May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > ... a full mix of 16 bit samples has the potential to have a dynamic range well beyond a 16 bit recording. Done wrong, it will just be the same range as 16 bit.
> ...



Oh yes!


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## synergy543 (May 19, 2010)

Leon Willett @ Wed May 19 said:


> this is completely true. Being able to load 50% more stuff is far more important.


+1

Plus, when you mix together an orchestra of 16-bit samples at different volumes and add reverb, you get much more than 16-bits of data. Reverb tails alone give you 24-bit data.

But regardless, the convenience "option" (you'd still get to choose 24-bits so nothing to lose) alone is worth making these available.

I appreciate that LASS offers 16 and 24-bit options in one package rather than selling you the same samples twice (as in Gold and Platinum versions).


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## Mike Connelly (May 19, 2010)

synergy543 @ Wed May 19 said:


> Plus, when you mix together an orchestra of 16-bit samples at different volumes and add reverb, you get much more than 16-bits of data. Reverb tails alone give you 24-bit data.



Absolutely. If the quiet samples were normalized before converting from 16 to 24, you'll get more than 16 bits of data just playing back the different velocities even if you don't adjust any instrument volumes.


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## Peter Alexander (May 19, 2010)

Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:


> Ed @ Mon May 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Mon May 17 said:
> ...



LASS is $1099 with free FedEx global shipping.


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## José Herring (May 19, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed May 19 said:


> synergy543 @ Wed May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Plus, when you mix together an orchestra of 16-bit samples at different volumes and add reverb, you get much more than 16-bits of data. Reverb tails alone give you 24-bit data.
> ...



No normalizing of quiet samples. It's the death of all that is musical.


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## Mike Connelly (May 19, 2010)

josejherring @ Wed May 19 said:


> No normalizing of quite samples. It's the death of all that is musical.



I think you misunderstand. I'm talking about normalizing quiet samples but programming them at a lower level so they play back at the proper volume. So if a sample peaks at -30db, it is normalized then played back in the sample player at -30db.


It doesn't make any "musical" change to the sound at all, the sound is identical but it makes better use of the available bits.


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## synthetic (May 19, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed May 19 said:


> josejherring @ Wed May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > No normalizing of quite samples. It's the death of all that is musical.
> ...



No, it's two unnecessary gain changes that introduce distortion. All digital gain change introduces some distortion through rounding errors, which is especially bad on low level audio. I'm with Jose.


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## dcoscina (May 19, 2010)

Here is my capsule review/thoughts on Hollywood Strings and LASS.

Hollywood Strings- the best legato string samples bar none. Lush, full of life, and the tone is superb. Spot on.

LASS- Short articulations are the best I have ever heard. The detail in their sound cannot be beat. And for short bowing, you need this kind of detail. Don't think anyone will match this. Yes, I have tried HS close mic in addition to the other mics. Much much better than EWQLSO strings to be sure. But do I find them (personally) better than Andrews? No. Once again, my thoughts.

TO have the ultimate strings you need both. Sorry, but that's my humble opinion. Good news for Doug, Nick, Thomas...AND Andrew K! =o


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## dcoscina (May 19, 2010)

Here's a comparison of the short articulations of HS and LASS. I also substituted the upright bass from Goliath on the EW version with VSL on the LASS version. 

Hollywood Strings version:
http://www.box.net/shared/qpznqdjg70

LASS Version:
http://www.box.net/shared/set6qs02r8

Okay I do want to say a couple things though- 

1. I did the HS version first this morning. There's less processing and I used a group spiccato and divided the sections by adding busses in Studio One (takes seconds, but I should plug that product in a separate thread ). 

2. With LASS, I actually used individual sections for each line and then added 8 violin I staccato to the 3/2 line in the upper range to give it extra dimension and bite. So, once again, this isn't really a fair comparison. I will do the same type of layering with HS and I'm sure it's gonna be closer. Like I said above, I'm NOT dissing either product. They are excellent libraries.


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## José Herring (May 19, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Wed May 19 said:


> josejherring @ Wed May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > No normalizing of quite samples. It's the death of all that is musical.
> ...



I following your reasoning, and I agree with your assessment, but you're also missing the fact that as soon as you normalize you raise also the noise floor and the noise in the signal. Then that becomes part of the sample so even if you lower it you'll have an even lower quality sample. While this can be an acceptable alternative I still think it's far inferior to setting the gain stages right to begin with and recording appropriate dynamics. If the recording is done in 24bit then keep it unaltered. I can't imagine any conceivable reason these days why samples that are recorded in 24 bit will benefit in any way by dithering down. Marginally less system resources maybe but not by much.

HS is so pristine from what I've heard so far, why cheapen it?

Jose


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## muziksculp (May 19, 2010)

dcoscina @ Wed May 19 said:


> Here's a comparison of the short articulations of HS and LASS. I also substituted the upright bass from Goliath on the EW version with VSL on the LASS version.
> 
> Hollywood Strings version:
> http://www.box.net/shared/qpznqdjg70
> ...



Hi David, and Thanks for posting some short articulation demos of both EW-HS and LASS. This is very helpful. 

A few comments ... 

Regarding EW-HS, you used the 'Spiccato' strings, which sound great, but since 'Spiccato' bowing technique is performed by bouncing the bow, the amount of contact with the strings is minimal, hence the overall body of the short articulations is less dense,rich, and pronounced, when compared to EW-HS 'Staccato' or 'Staccatisimo' or even 'Marcato'. 

Since you used 'Staccato' style bowing in your LASS version, It is not easy, or I should even say 'Fair', to compare two different articulations/bowing techniques from two sample libraries, I think if you used the EW-HS 'Staccato' or 'Marcatto' it might be a better choice to compare, and evaluate LASS vs EW-HS short articulation. 

Both your LASS and EW-HS demos sound great ! But I'm still undecided if I would need to have LASS, but 100% convinced that EW-HS is a must have o/~ library.


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## givemenoughrope (May 19, 2010)

David, did you use the A.R.T. tool with the LASS demo?


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## dcoscina (May 19, 2010)

no didn't use the ART tool. 
FYI- most of the samples from LASS were spiccato actually. I did enhance the cello and violin II by adding some divisi staccato articulations. I'm going to try this with HS again now with muzik's suggestions. I wasn't trying to cast a bad light on H-S (why would I anyhow? I bought it!).


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## José Herring (May 19, 2010)

dcoscina @ Wed May 19 said:


> Here's a comparison of the short articulations of HS and LASS. I also substituted the upright bass from Goliath on the EW version with VSL on the LASS version.
> 
> Hollywood Strings version:
> http://www.box.net/shared/qpznqdjg70
> ...



I don't think one is any better than the other. They're just different. Both libraries do the job really well. But hats off to Andrew for being able to do such an outstanding job with hardly the resources that a company like EW has.


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## NYC Composer (May 20, 2010)

josejherring @ Thu May 20 said:


> dcoscina @ Wed May 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a comparison of the short articulations of HS and LASS. I also substituted the upright bass from Goliath on the EW version with VSL on the LASS version.
> ...



I must disagree, ( xcept for the last part!)

I don't know that it was an apples to apples comparison, might be too many variables, but LASS sounded much better to me. Crisper, better articulated.


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## futur2 (May 20, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Thu May 20 said:


> I don't know that it was an apples to apples comparison, might be too many variables, but LASS sounded much better to me. Crisper, better articulated.



it's definitely not apples to apples. i'm really looking forward to a fair comparison


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## stevenson-again (May 20, 2010)

> I following your reasoning, and I agree with your assessment, but you're also missing the fact that as soon as you normalize you raise also the noise floor and the noise in the signal. Then that becomes part of the sample so even if you lower it you'll have an even lower quality sample. While this can be an acceptable alternative I still think it's far inferior to setting the gain stages right to begin with and recording appropriate dynamics. If the recording is done in 24bit then keep it unaltered. I can't imagine any conceivable reason these days why samples that are recorded in 24 bit will benefit in any way by dithering down.



actually jose, mike is right about this. the idea is that you return the signal back to its original level so you don't raise the noise floor. in fact if it is recorded at 24 bit but normailized and dithered to 16 as mike suggest, you will get less quantization noise from the noise floor than you would if you had recorded at 16, and it should sound smoother - but in fact the noise floor will be at exactly the same level ultimately because the signal is gain reduced.

the point is, 24bit is really only significant when you are listening to quiet sounds, reverb tails ends of notes etc. i would suggest the reason this wasn't done is that it would likely be a ton more work, on top of which from a marketing point view, not many people necessarily understand bit depth in much depth and simply presume more = better. therefore it made sense just to go with 24bit. plus, as they said they didn't find a huge performance difference, so i guess that's that.



> Marginally less system resources maybe but not by much.



well that's the big question.

as a related aside, one software dev i spoke to at frankfurt a while back was saying that he thought the future lay in lossless compressed samples. the bottleneck is data throughput (being tackled by SSD i know) these days rather than CPU load which have to decode compressed audio. that could have been a good thing to do with PLAY i reckon. by playing back lossless samples would probably have better distributed available system resources.


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## dcoscina (May 20, 2010)

I started playing with the staccato on the bow divisi patches from HS last night- WOW! they sound friggin terrific. I'll post the demo when i tweak it some more. The new PLAY update has resulted in significantly crisper load times too which is great.


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## Mike Connelly (May 20, 2010)

josejherring @ Wed May 19 said:


> I following your reasoning, and I agree with your assessment, but you're also missing the fact that as soon as you normalize you raise also the noise floor and the noise in the signal. Then that becomes part of the sample so even if you lower it you'll have an even lower quality sample.



You don't think going from 24 bit to 16 bit is raising the noise floor?

Sure, normalizing raises the noise floor, but it also raises the low level signal which means more of it is preserved when going to fewer bits instead of just throwing that signal away. Plus, when you play back the sample at the appropriate volume you are lowering the noise floor back around where it was originally.

24 bit sample of a sound peaking at -48db converted to 16 bit without normalizing first has a noise floor of -96. You raise the noise floor but without raising the low level signal, which is lost.

24 bit sample of a sound peaking at -48db converted to 16 bit with normalizing first has a noise floor of -144. You raise the noise floor, but you do it at the same time as raising the low level signal, preserving it, then on playback you lower the noise floor back down.

In fact, with any sound below -48, if you normalize you can convert to 16 bit without losing any of the low level information.



josejherring @ Wed May 19 said:


> While this can be an acceptable alternative I still think it's far inferior to setting the gain stages right to begin with and recording appropriate dynamics. If the recording is done in 24bit then keep it unaltered. I can't imagine any conceivable reason these days why samples that are recorded in 24 bit will benefit in any way by dithering down.



That all makes sense if you're talking about staying at 24 bit, did you miss that I'm talking specifically about conversion to 16 bit?

Even when staying at 24 bit, a sample dev can "normalize" by raising the level of the preamp when recording quieter dynamics, although that would require keeping track of the various levels to ensure playing back at the proper level. I'd be curious if any devs actually do that or just set the mic pres based on the loudest material and leave it there for the whole session.



josejherring @ Wed May 19 said:


> Marginally less system resources maybe but not by much.



I'm not sure what's going on in the specific case of PLAY, but in general using 16 bit samples means you have to move a third less bits than 24. That's a significant reduction in data.



stevenson-again @ Thu May 20 said:


> as a related aside, one software dev i spoke to at frankfurt a while back was saying that he thought the future lay in lossless compressed samples. the bottleneck is data throughput (being tackled by SSD i know) these days rather than CPU load which have to decode compressed audio. that could have been a good thing to do with PLAY i reckon. by playing back lossless samples would probably have better distributed available system resources.



Interesting point, that's exactly what the latest Kontakt is doing. Nowadays it does seem in many cases like HD throughput is the weak link while machines have CPU to spare.


----------



## Peter Alexander (May 20, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed May 19 said:


> We did some tests and 16 bit did not improve performance noticeably. It does save a bit of ram. We were dismayed at how ewqlso gold made most people forget platinum existed and we wanted to be sure this didn't happen with HS. Making a lite version of HS is tricky. We are not ruling it out, but at this point we are concentrating on program updates so HS potential is fully realized.



Interesting point, Nick, but as one of your dealers, Gold did not make people forget Platinum existed. It had to do with:

1. Price and System 
2. That Gold has an upgrade path when customers get bigger systems
3. That Gold was a next step up from "lite" libraries by comparison in size and scope

When you work with the top, it's not easy to see the bottom who subsidize sample library sales. 

There is always this assumption that everyone knows and understands mic positions and how to set up with surround.

This is an erroneous sales assumption because most don't, and I have the 25 year experience of having trained over 250,000 customers through Alexander Publishing MIDI titles.

With the exception of a statistical few, music technology has left the average customer behind. For long term sales, QLSO Gold will be your ticket.


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## Peter Alexander (May 20, 2010)

@Mike Connelly - I heard a distinct difference between Vienna in 16 bit before the Vienna Instruments, and with the 24-bit version, which I also noted in a written review.

The other night I compared LASS on 16 vs 24, and again, using KRK VXT8 monitors, I could hear a noticeable difference.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 20, 2010)

Peter, You are right. I meant something different. 99% of forum opinions were based on gold. Like, it's too wet, the horns are too bright, etc.. All issues that platinum addressed.


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## Mike Connelly (May 20, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 20 said:


> the horns are too bright



What difference between gold and platinum would make the horns less bright? 16/24 bit, or different mic position? Those are the only two differences between the libraries, right?


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## Nick Phoenix (May 20, 2010)

The surround horns have a grand and darker sound.


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## Peter Alexander (May 20, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 20 said:


> Peter, You are right. I meant something different. 99% of forum opinions were based on gold. Like, it's too wet, the horns are too bright, etc.. All issues that platinum addressed.



My apologies, Nick, I misunderstood your comment.


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## Chaim (May 21, 2010)

Nick, is seems to me that the library is missing legato (or bow change) on a repeated sus note.

Correct me if I'm wrong....


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## Nick Phoenix (May 21, 2010)

We have it for all sections. Those patches are in the long folders. Sus rr. We have not included the RR sustains in the legato patches to save memory. We will add that in an program update for power users.


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## germancomponist (May 21, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 20 said:


> .... I meant something different. 99% of forum opinions were based on gold. Like, it's too wet, the horns are too bright, etc.. All issues that platinum addressed.



How true!


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## Mike Connelly (May 21, 2010)

germancomponist @ Fri May 21 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 20 said:
> 
> 
> > .... I meant something different. 99% of forum opinions were based on gold. Like, it's too wet, the horns are too bright, etc.. All issues that platinum addressed.
> ...



Although I still find the close mics of platinum to be too wet if you need more of a closer/drier sound much of the time. From what I've heard, even the surround mics of HS sound drier than the close mics of platinum.


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## Ed (May 21, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 21 said:


> We have it for all sections. Those patches are in the long folders. Sus rr. We have not included the RR sustains in the legato patches to save memory. We will add that in an program update for power users.



Does that mean legato repetitions?


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## germancomponist (May 21, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Fri May 21 said:


> germancomponist @ Fri May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Phoenix @ Thu May 20 said:
> ...



Compare to the real thing: Are you sitting on the stage when you listen to a concert? :mrgreen: 

When you are mixing a piece with a dry recorded library, lets say with 30, 40 and more tracks, and when you then use the "solo-knob" from, for example, the solo violin: Is it poor dry or have you added some reverb?

You know what the goal was from EWQLSO Platinum? o/~ o-[][]-o


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## Mike Connelly (May 21, 2010)

germancomponist @ Fri May 21 said:


> Compare to the real thing: Are you sitting on the stage when you listen to a concert?



Who says I always want it to sound like I'm sitting in a hall and the musicians are on the stage? And compare to the close mics in HS - do you think they made a mistake by having those more like "sitting on the stage"? Isn't the whole point of multiple mic positions to have options?



germancomponist @ Fri May 21 said:


> When you are mixing a piece with a dry recorded library, lets say with 30, 40 and more tracks, and when you then use the "solo-knob" from, for example, the solo violin: Is it poor dry or have you added some reverb?



Depends on the track. I definitely have done mixes that were drier than the close mic positions.



germancomponist @ Fri May 21 said:


> You know what the goal was from EWQLSO Platinum?



Of course I do. That doesn't change the fact that there are situations where none of the mic positions are dry enough, and that the library could be more versatile if the driest mic position was a bit drier. Whether they had a goal or not, a string library can be used for many kinds of music, and more flexibility is a plus.

Considering that HS is vastly drier overall than platinum, it sure looks like the guys at EW were thinking along the same lines that it's useful to have at least some recordings that are closer and drier than the ones in platinum. I'll bet when they move on to brass and other sections, we'll see a similar move to much less reverberant recordings overall. HS sure seems to have a main goal as well, but it still looks more versatile than the strings in platinum.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 21, 2010)

Mike, The close mics in Platinum are pretty dry but have this long but quiet tail from the sound hitting the back of the hall and making it back to the stage. It can be removed easily by shortening the release time of all short notes and turning off the release trails on longs. Viola! Dry.

Obviously the strings in HS are more versatile Than EWQLSO. Almost 1 million samples and more deeply sampled than any strings in sample history. If you look closely at all the demos and tutorials already available, the info you need is already there. But we are doing more demos and tutorials to cover things like runs in more detail. I think we should offer a money back guarantee. 

Yes the brass will be done exactly the same way as HS.


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## artinro (May 21, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 21 said:


> We have it for all sections. Those patches are in the long folders. Sus rr. We have not included the RR sustains in the legato patches to save memory. We will add that in an program update for power users.



Nick, this would be really great. Looking forward to that program update!


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## sadatayy (May 21, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 21 said:


> Mike, The close mics in Platinum are pretty dry but have this long but quiet tail from the sound hitting the back of the hall and making it back to the stage. It can be removed easily by shortening the release time of all short notes and turning off the release trails on longs. Viola! Dry.
> 
> Obviously the strings in HS are more versatile Than EWQLSO. Almost 1 million samples and more deeply sampled than any strings in sample history. If you look closely at all the demos and tutorials already available, the info you need is already there. But we are doing more demos and tutorials to cover things like runs in more detail. I think we should offer a money back guarantee.
> 
> Yes the brass will be done exactly the same way as HS.



nick so which is next hollywood brass or hollywood choir because i could have sworn you said choir is next but doug said brass is next. which?

-Tarik


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## Nick Phoenix (May 21, 2010)

Choir and brass are both being worked on.


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## sadatayy (May 21, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 21 said:


> Choir and brass are both being worked on.



thanks for clarifying. there isn't any rough release date announced is there? i mean like we talking 2011 or possibility of anything in late 2010 or what?


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## rpaillot (May 22, 2010)

Here's a short demo I made with HS this afternoon :

http://www.romainpaillot.com/HS-string.mp3

Mostly legato patchs loaded and a bit of divisi violin = 5.5 GB of ram used :D


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## Peter Alexander (May 22, 2010)

rpaillot @ Sat May 22 said:


> Here's a short demo I made with HS this afternoon :
> 
> http://www.romainpaillot.com/HS-string.mp3
> 
> Mostly legato patchs loaded and a bit of divisi violin = 5.5 GB of ram used :D



Very lovely. Nice String textures, too.


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## handz (May 22, 2010)

rpaillot: sounds nice! But this amount of RAM ...wow. 

New brass lib - great! These are vrery good news - will there by some kind of physical modeling aviable? (because IMO in the brass territory it showed up as maybe the only way - or am I wrong?)


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## NYC Composer (May 22, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 21 said:


> Mike, The close mics in Platinum are pretty dry but have this long but quiet tail from the sound hitting the back of the hall and making it back to the stage. It can be removed easily by shortening the release time of all short notes and turning off the release trails on longs. Viola! Dry.



I agree with this. Mike, when you turn off the release trails in Platinum, do you still find the ( strings, for example) too wet?


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## choc0thrax (May 22, 2010)

rpaillot @ Sat May 22 said:


> Here's a short demo I made with HS this afternoon :
> 
> http://www.romainpaillot.com/HS-string.mp3
> 
> Mostly legato patchs loaded and a bit of divisi violin = 5.5 GB of ram used :D



Impressive.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 22, 2010)

Modelling is great for solo brass, when done well like the samplemodelling guys. For sections samples are better. However all the sampling we have been doing maybe the basis of future section modeling.


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## wqaxsz (May 22, 2010)

rpaillot @ Sat May 22 said:


> Here's a short demo I made with HS this afternoon :
> 
> http://www.romainpaillot.com/HS-string.mp3
> 
> Mostly legato patchs loaded and a bit of divisi violin = 5.5 GB of ram used :D



Hi, 

there are some strange noises on the celli parts. Streaming issues ?

Regards

LolitO


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## Dan Mott (May 23, 2010)

Just had a quick go at a generic feel with HS to show. Timing might be weird i think in this little song (my fault), but i really like the sound of the library, i think it's really unique and lush. I'm going to do a review soon on HS since i've been exploring and practising with it. 

Dan.

http://soundcloud.com/destaana/hs-generic


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## Chaim (May 23, 2010)

Ed @ Fri May 21 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 21 said:
> 
> 
> > We have it for all sections. Those patches are in the long folders. Sus rr. We have not included the RR sustains in the legato patches to save memory. We will add that in an program update for power users.
> ...



Yes.


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## Chaim (May 23, 2010)

Nick Phoenix @ Fri May 21 said:


> We have it for all sections. Those patches are in the long folders. Sus rr. We have not included the RR sustains in the legato patches to save memory. We will add that in an program update for power users.



Great!, on a different note though:

The library can benefit from more *light* patches, Nick. I know you want to force HS into always sounding very good, but this is one of the benefits of top libraries; the more simpler patches (done right) are far better than the best big patches of the not-so-top libraries.

For example, a Bow change legato (including rep legato) + slur + portamento patch that has 3 dynamic layers but only one vibrato layer.

Or even 1 and 1.....


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## Nick Phoenix (May 23, 2010)

Chaim, yes we have more lite patches coming.


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## Chaim (May 23, 2010)

8) Cool. Thanks.


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## noiseboyuk (May 23, 2010)

wqaxsz @ Sat May 22 said:


> there are some strange noises on the celli parts. Streaming issues ?
> 
> Regards
> 
> LolitO



Yes, I heard them immediately too... I was initially wondering if it was just a low bitrate mp3 artefact, but on a closer listen I agree it sounds like a streaming issue. It's very distracting, which is a a shame cos otherwise it sounds fantastic...

Please do let us know if you find out what the problem is, rpaillot.


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## Dan Mott (May 24, 2010)

What celli patches did you use??

I have the same issue in the long powerful system folder, but only one the slower BC celli patches. It has a weird sound when the legato intervals change. Some of the celli is also out of tune at the start but that's a different issue. The sound is like a click noise and bad interval changes pretty much and i was hearing the same thing on my system that i heard in your demo.

If you could, name the patches from the long powerful system folder so i can find out if we are both having the same issue with these patches inparticular.


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## rpaillot (May 24, 2010)

The cello patch I used is "Celli Leg BC + Slur + Port LT 12" in the "legato" folder.
Noises only with 64 bit version of PLAY.


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## Dan Mott (May 24, 2010)

See what happens when you load the celli BC SLOW and SLOQWE in the legato powerful system folder, it has strange actitivy.


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