# Older Dell Server as VEP Slave?



## Jeremy Gillam (Mar 6, 2019)

Hi all,

In the video below Tom is using https://www.ebay.com/itm/Build-Your-Own-Dell-PowerEdge-R610-Server-2x-X5670-Hex-Core-2-93GHz-H700-DVD/192199128032?var=&hash=item2cbff5f3e0&enc=AQADAAADAFjVrDbVsZ8oH%2F8PNHtt9VX4%2Fw7FZcmMuqsX8uaFEduVdx6vIfXogypeRcTCB3X8IP2XDelHr%2FMyCuA16gII2ywjKiEjS7Gmfrd7RU7vK8g3JMIFn0mycBEk8KXx88IO1x8ectYAG60%2FAJeXTwkv63KM%2FKmoKI%2FPwaQ0Mcvb5eyy6myJElUWPQAtt9IL3BVGooyTYsPjpcIoPpW%2F7yua%2BQef6FDNMmvhQxvOz8aKhJDHiKUn2hYUoOb1nrF3Ua%2B%2FmeJr%2B0sGTt6oliI43b36wgkO3HbqRO%2FYutmebM3g9OpTLkst2%2FzP7bnBXgUg%2FNJbagBaRpnCCseW5MRmEr3RjzMfy%2F4dz4n3RSyt6TPIgxuvOvEJHs8BsWTIiNDvTLt9zCTwZMIefeHtrtm7zOR9Wu4ZoRtQ6hWCoMmXYBfuIuxQxp%2BjKJIUqnv3nxTxyruXIOAYWCToBCzi8z7zPiViwpx7z13nppszzglXAE6%2Bl9lfDSgRKPsjxL2frKeN2yc7UQpKNVNEFIw3WxH9NqtLvNjE3ZSLi%2FJfGWvutTx%2Bz9al6GclUEdkO2lgpXND5cQGassBRtymbSWxoPQAnWvT6v4ZTvGuRkohHzicnetfMD5qN7EgU2ZbeBc8W1FKoiOccvYKuJpFGOHt6TNmyCNtb1RPowI779x17zVy3fKuECMc8yrhao2wy4heh2U7tA5gu1wflipQBdHixXYJ6DdQKPUDIaSYrk%2Bvk2OgkNXQ2avBjreXZt8qXdPirlGaFrHl6u7cl3n%2BnZRjj%2FBgF4DTOxvnyKO1j1G43U9GDXQV1MK1LkbGtGjzoxtrgo5FjaU5SyH%2FOnY0PWrnUIyVtKYD51nxU4Zu%2B0RVNEf6WPWXvzJnvFxqn9cGljO5I9%2BXFvXj6J6e4WpYZHJbQAHLXv1ZUdVkLz%2FxnChF11%2FC8IGrQtGaIIzi1579IWQPA2rXlyPz5i%2Fl9aObUIKsSLweHvGxaMyctojiM5OzaAr6XIPvw3Po7wtKwBaHbDXN%2FBqrbVia7g%3D%3D&checksum=1921991280329aa78a3c52fd45e3a0f56c6070e30e03&frcectupt=true (these older Dell servers) as Vienna Ensemble Pro slaves. I'm thinking of going this route and I'm curious if anyone here has experiencing using these? In doing some research it seems that they require Windows Server 2016, which seems quite expensive to license (although I saw some https://www.ebay.com/itm/Windows-Server-2016-Standard-64-bit-License-Multilanguage/283274600013?hash=item41f47b5e4d:g:omkAAOSwkIdbseGW&frcectupt=true (cheap licenses on Ebay), if they are legit or not I can't say). Will Vienna Ensemble Pro, Kontakt, etc. run okay on this version of Windows, despite not being officially qualified?

If not, is it possible to install Windows 10 Pro on these machines?

Can anyone weigh in on using RAID vs. JBOD hard disk configuration with these? Are SSDs still necessary for VEP, or would 4 10k spinning drives in RAID 0 or something like that be adequate? Any other pros and cons in regard to disk configuration?

I understand these servers can be quite loud. Would SSDs mitigate that? Also, I think I've I've read that they are quite power hungry. Compared to a typical PC tower, how hungry are they?

Any other pitfalls to be aware of? Advantages other than price point that would be good to know about? Am I right in thinking DDR3 RAM is adequate for VEP?

Thanks!


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## AlexRuger (Mar 6, 2019)

Hey Jeremy, I set up those machines for Tom and managed his studio for a little under two years, including the building of the new studio you see in the video. Obviously I can't go into too much detail regarding my work for him, but I can help point you in the right direction.

Yes, you can install Windows 10. We did, and it worked just fine. 

These machines are pretty strange in that they required even a single disc to be formatted as a RAID (specially, RAID 0). You literally cannot just pop in a drive and call it a day, or even use a JBOD configuration. Pro's and cons regarding types of RAID are pretty easy to research, and the question as to whether spinning or SSD drives would be better is an easy one: SSD's all day!

The servers are crazy loud, yes. SSD's have nothing to do with it. Their fans could power a space shuttle. They're also insanely power-hungry, and for this reason aren't something I'd recommend unless you have some serious electrical capability, a cooled machine room, and the cash to pay for it all. Yes, the machines are cheap relative to their power, but this will bite you on the other end.

DDR3 was fine. It takes a little while longer for the template to load samples into RAM, but due to the high number of rigs, we deemed this an acceptable trade-off because of the price of the machines. And besides, we never really shut them down unless we had a crash or a power outage, so we didn't have to wait for the template to load all that often. 

One major pitfall is that these are no longer supported by Dell. If they break, you're dead in the water, and seeing as most of the parts on these are proprietary Dell parts, that's a huge issue. It's also a bit of an unknown running Windows 10 on these. I imagine that Dell could just stop updating drivers for them, and after a while they would become totally useless with a modern OS. That's only a potential risk, though -- last I saw Tom, the studio was running like a clock and these machines were kicking ass with Windows 10 as up-to-date as it could be.

Again, they're cheap relative to their capabilities, so issues aside they may be a good choice. But for someone with only a single rig, I usually suggest that you steer clear and go with the more standard, albeit more expensive (in terms of parts, at least), solutions. They tend to be a better choice for those who have to scale and have the resources to replace them at the drop of a hat if one decides to die.

Hope this helps!


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## Jeremy Gillam (Mar 6, 2019)

Thanks for the detailed reply Alex! Probably not the best choice for me. “Serious electrical capability” is not how I would describe the situation in my apartment, where my sink once fell off the wall and was lopsidedly re-affixed by my landlord with what I believe was a combination of gaffer tape and super glue. Hopefully this thread will be helpful for others here as well. All my best,

JG


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## Zero&One (Mar 6, 2019)

Yeah, to mirror Alex's reply these R610's are not for home use. At work we have 30 spare one's from our last hardware refresh. They need 2 power sources, very long in size in so a rack is a must, and probably decently cooling unit/airflow as they get hot fast. And yes, those fans especially during boot are crazy loud.
On a plus side, they are generally rock solid and we had very little failures over 8 years. Spares are easy to get as ebay is littered with them... but still not cheap.

If you have a garage, loft or cellar then 4 of these would be fine in a rack. But using a modern PC would probably yield the same results without any of the hassle.


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## curtisschweitzer (Mar 22, 2019)

Thank you to Alex for that in-depth info. I bought 2 of these and have been setting them up recently. I made a video about how it went for me:


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## droman92 (Apr 12, 2019)

AlexRuger said:


> These machines are pretty strange in that they required even a single disc to be formatted as a RAID (specially, RAID 0). You literally cannot just pop in a drive and call it a day, or even use a JBOD configuration. Pro's and cons regarding types of RAID are pretty easy to research, and the question as to whether spinning or SSD drives would be better is an easy one: SSD's all day!
> 
> The servers are crazy loud, yes. SSD's have nothing to do with it. Their fans could power a space shuttle. They're also insanely power-hungry, and for this reason aren't something I'd recommend unless you have some serious electrical capability, a cooled machine room, and the cash to pay for it all. Yes, the machines are cheap relative to their power, but this will bite you on the other end.



Very cool that you worked with Tom! His setup inspired mine 

To add to this, it depends on the RAID controller. I have a few R servers and some RAID controllers such as (for example), the H710P, is a dedicated RAID only mono-card and thus does not support JBOD style input, BUT if you wish to have that, you can simply swap a H310m into it, and you have full JBOD integration. The entire front bay (be it 4, 8, or 10 bays) will act as hotswap bays and you do not have to set anything up as a RAID array.

This is just an example, and the type of controller varies by generation, but I highly recommend Gen 12 or above (gen 13) for sample servers.

Hope I could help.


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## AlexRuger (Apr 12, 2019)

Good info to have here! Yes, over my time there I discovered that alternative RAID cards were available. I was planning on swapping us over at some point, but I left before that happened. Not sure if my replacement ever implemented that, but I'm sure whatever he's done to the rigs is way better than anything I ever did -- the dude's brilliant.


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## ControlCentral (Oct 5, 2019)

curtisschweitzer said:


> ...I made a video about how it went for me:


Thank you so much. This is gold. 🥇


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## GentleThud (Feb 15, 2020)

I just want to to thank Jeremy for starting this ... Alex for his generous response ... and Curtis for his follow-up. But it was Jeremy's response to Alex, about the state of his kitchen, that brought the world crashing back into perspective. I fell off my chair laughing. But more than that, very few of us are able to do more than cobble together setups out of other people's scrap and discards. It is the extraordinary kindness of people on this list that helps others to solve almost insurmountable problems, and turn piles of crap into functional setups.


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## smoaky (May 30, 2020)

Sorry to rebump this,

But will a DellPowerEdge R900, 2x Intel Xeon E7450 6 cores and 128gb ddr3 server work with VEP?


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## AlexRuger (May 30, 2020)

Should just fine, yes. But don't quote me.


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## Nicholas (May 31, 2020)

I tried going for a Dell PowerEdge R710. 2x Xeon X5650 Six Core 2.66 GHz, 128GB RAM. Now- the first thing you have to check for is the installed RAID Controller. You need a H700 RAID-Controller for it to be usable with SSDs. 2nd thing you have to be aware of- it only comes with a crappy display controller and a VGA out - you WILL need a VGA-equipped monitor to set this thing up. Even if you install a GPU (which needs to be PCIe x8 and passive), you won't see the BIOS unless you use the onboard-outputs.

Now all of that was doable, but nevertheless I returned it. Heres why: First of all, VEP doesn't seem to particularily like Multi-CPUs. It only utilized one CPU on my system. Still worked though. But the real bummer is: The thing is heavy, big, very very loud and very very power-hungry.The fans are so loud, it's like a jet turbine (for real).

I'm building a "normal" pc now. It's just easier. Yes: more expensive, but unless you have a dedicated server room I wouldn't recommend a server. It's much less of a "normal computer" than you'd expect. In some ways, that's a good thing, but it's really not intended for home use. Don't do it.


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## Zero&One (May 31, 2020)

Nicholas said:


> The thing is heavy, big, very very loud and very very power-hungry.The fans are so loud, it's like a jet turbine (for real).



😂
Aren’t they just. We have about 30 in a pile at work. Several people took them home, only to return them a few days later like an unwanted puppy.
And if one power supply fails or drops, the other one goes nuclear level!

Yeah, a dedicated room is required with adequate cooling to boot. Not worth it for home setups in my opinion/experience


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## smoaky (May 31, 2020)

Nicholas said:


> I tried going for a Dell PowerEdge R710. 2x Xeon X5650 Six Core 2.66 GHz, 128GB RAM. Now- the first thing you have to check for is the installed RAID Controller. You need a H700 RAID-Controller for it to be usable with SSDs. 2nd thing you have to be aware of- it only comes with a crappy display controller and a VGA out - you WILL need a VGA-equipped monitor to set this thing up. Even if you install a GPU (which needs to be PCIe x8 and passive), you won't see the BIOS unless you use the onboard-outputs.
> 
> Now all of that was doable, but nevertheless I returned it. Heres why: First of all, VEP doesn't seem to particularily like Multi-CPUs. It only utilized one CPU on my system. Still worked though. But the real bummer is: The thing is heavy, big, very very loud and very very power-hungry.The fans are so loud, it's like a jet turbine (for real).
> 
> I'm building a "normal" pc now. It's just easier. Yes: more expensive, but unless you have a dedicated server room I wouldn't recommend a server. It's much less of a "normal computer" than you'd expect. In some ways, that's a good thing, but it's really not intended for home use. Don't do it.



i probably will do ok with the VGA as i'm keeping it in a seperate machine room as a slave. how do i check for the h700 raid controller


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## Zero&One (May 31, 2020)

smoaky said:


> i probably will do ok with the VGA as i'm keeping it in a seperate machine room as a slave. how do i check for the h700 raid controller



Those R900 come with PERC 6i SAS 6/iR, PERC 6/E. I think they mean you’d need to buy one.


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## telecode101 (Jun 1, 2020)

..


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## Nicholas (Jun 1, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> Those R900 come with PERC 6i SAS 6/iR, PERC 6/E. I think they mean you’d need to buy one.


Yep. Or you find a dealer that has a 900 with the correct RAID Controller already installed!


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## Nicholas (Jun 1, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> Note. These types of systems are meant for a data center rack. they are loud. they are heavy. they are build to be installed in a rack with rails. they work well. always check the Dell site for what OS is supported and use Dell's drivers. Very strange issues occur when you use the parts builders drivers and not Dells. You would not want to be sitting next to on all day long.
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how would a Xeon X5650 multi core dual cpu version compare to a modern Mac Mini i7 model? I can't see it performing faster.



Yes, they absolutely are. I thought that Server units are just regular PCs built into rackmountable cases, but that's really not the case. I mean yes- at the end of the day, it's a computer, but a very weird one.


@CPU.. the X5650 is a 10 year old processor, and given the fact that clock speeds and the no of cores isn't the full equation, it seems more than likely that a modern i7 outperforms the X5650. Also, I'm not sure how well applications utilize multiple CPUs.. on my system, VEP was only utilizing one CPU, and then you're basically drowning.

But: if you have the room, the circuit and the willigness to invest time into the thing (if you're not used to working with servers that is)- it can still be a big bang for the buck.


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## telecode101 (Jun 2, 2020)

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## bacherak (Aug 3, 2020)

Hello All, Thank you for all the information here. Has anyone tried PowerEdge R910 as sample server (with 4 cpus), using Windows Server 2019, Kontakt, Vienna Ensemble Pro 7 etc etc as a slave sample server. Please let me know 
Cheers


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## José Herring (Aug 5, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> 😂
> Aren’t they just. We have about 30 in a pile at work. Several people took them home, only to return them a few days later like an unwanted puppy.
> And if one power supply fails or drops, the other one goes nuclear level!
> 
> Yeah, a dedicated room is required with adequate cooling to boot. Not worth it for home setups in my opinion/experience


So big and sooooo loud and so hot and not in a sexy way.


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## telecode101 (Aug 5, 2020)

..


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## iMovieShout (Jan 26, 2021)

For info: We're set up with x12 Dell servers each running Windows Server 2012R2 and VEP7, where each server has dual CPU (Xeon 5675s I think), some with 192GB RAM, some with 320GB. Each has a 120GB SSD for Windows, and loads up its instruments from a Dell fileserver over a dedicated 10GB/sec network. Works fine but does occasionally require TLC. Power consumption IS heavy'ish, but removing the redundant power supply does actualy reduce the overhead somewhat, especially with the servers powered from UPS systems (somehow also reduces the power consumption a little - which helps as 8 of the servers are in fact Dell C6110 cloud servers (ie. 1 server rack contains 4 individual servers). We also have an R720 and an R620 for the fileservers, production servers (for rendering video and backups).


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## AlexRuger (Jan 26, 2021)

That’s got to be one loud machine room.


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## iMovieShout (Jan 26, 2021)

AlexRuger said:


> That’s got to be one loud machine room.


Pretty loud. We replaced many of the built in fans with much quieter / more efficient fans, and added aircon for the summer. I don't notice the noise as I'm 2 floors up.


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