# Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP not using all it's available samples



## Moonchilde (Feb 11, 2007)

Ok, so I was exploring Gold XP a bit more today. I found the "Hall Noise" patch in the Percussion section to only use the F samples, however, if you click the left and right browse samples you have access to C, F, S1 and S2 hall noise samples... yet there is only a patch for F Hall Noise.

So I started wondering what else isn't being used...

I browsed to Contrabassoon and to the gliss folder. Now, on the real patch, there are only 9 samples used, but in the folder there are 13! Why weren't these used? This would be less sample stretching and more realism to the instrument patches... I don't see why these were passed up when they're going to take space on our hard-drives as useless wastes unless we get curious to look for them?

And further browsing, there is a whole Contrabassoon Portamento layer M not even used!

Why oh why oh why?! I thought I was almost done reprogramming the library and now I find this... so now I have to go through each instrument just to make sure it is using all the samples... yaaarrrrgggghhhhhhhh :x I have to say, I'm pretty disappointed as far as that is concerned.


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## mbncp (Feb 11, 2007)

*Re: Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP*



Moonchilde @ Sun Feb 11 said:


> [..]I don't see why these were passed up when they're going to take space on our hard-drives as useless wastes unless we get curious to look for them[..]



LOL, there is even better, in Colossus you have almost 10 GB of samples (out of 32 GB) that are exact duplicates.


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## Moonchilde (Feb 11, 2007)

*Re: Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP*

Ah Christ...

Well anyway, I found a couple of more velocity layers for some instruments and some all new instruments all together, like a Violin patch that Trills for 2 notes and then goes into a crescendo...

And I'm only just beginning... I'm documenting all the new stuff I'm finding. I knew there had to be more stuff than what is offered in this library as it is 32 gigs and there doesn't seem to be enough patches that use it all...

* adding *

There are lots of samples not used... and what angers me is that some samples are stretch 4 or 5 zones when there were perfectly good samples to fill those zones... I'm starting to get pissed off as I do this, not only do I think the sample programming wasn't very good with all these odd names for the patches, but here I'm finding a lot of samples unused which would have made these much better quality!


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## david robinson (Feb 11, 2007)

*Re: Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP*

NI's cheesy in your face turns me off, all they are trying to do is protect against ripoff of the libs content. I'll take the humble EXS anyday.


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## dach (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP*



Moonchilde @ Sun Feb 11 said:


> Ah Christ...
> There are lots of samples not used... and what angers me is that some samples are stretch 4 or 5 zones when there were perfectly good samples to fill those zones... I'm starting to get pissed off as I do this, not only do I think the sample programming wasn't very good with all these odd names for the patches, but here I'm finding a lot of samples unused which would have made these much better quality!



I'm not surprised with your findings - with Gold at least.

If you remember, the Pro versions were at least 6-8 months behind schedule. They also put out RA, the Choirs package and several other large libraries during that time... and there were more than a few unhappy folks with all the delays.

Please keep us informed what you come up with...


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP*

No, and anyway his reply has nothing to do with the fact that there are loads of unused samples in Gold XP. 95% of the samples I've found make almost all instruments chromatic, since they aren't, and I can't find anything wrong with them. The other 5% or so I found to have a very loud pop at some point in the sample, so those were unusable. Although, if the samples weren't locked they could have been corrected in an audio editor...

Most of these samples just need a little tuning adjustments, and they fit right in. I found about 3 that needed a 20 db boost since they didn't seem normalized...

In the one of the brass Staccato patches, the lower note samples were stretched over 5 zones! There were solo samples for each of those! Again, all it needed was a little tuning.

Is anyone interested in the customized and full sample utilized versions of my Gold XP patches?


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## gmet (Feb 12, 2007)

Moonchilde - I would definatley be interested in these new patches. The EWQLSO library sounds great but I often get frustrated with the inconsistency of the programming and naming of the patches.

Justin


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

Justin M @ February 12th 2007 said:


> Moonchilde - I would definatley be interested in these new patches. The EWQLSO library sounds great but I often get frustrated with the inconsistency of the programming and naming of the patches.
> 
> Justin



Great! I'm not the only one really frustrated with how inconsistent the patches are. Mine are definitely more uniform, with RR on every patch and cross fading on every sustain patch. All percusion has simulated "hand muffling" as well. And of course, the added extra samples helps fill the gaps that were previously there.


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## gmet (Feb 12, 2007)

These patches sound (excuse the pun!) great especially the xfade & RR. How have you found the release samples when using scripts?

Justin


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

Well, thats the kicker... I don't use the release samples. I use a convolution. There are just too many issues with the release samples... for example, how the sustain samples have an un-natural release to blend into the release trails. Also, sometimes the trails trigger after a sample sustains out if it isn't a sample that is indefinite... and other odds and ends that cause problems with them.


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## Fernando Warez (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP*



Moonchilde @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> Is anyone interested in the customized and full sample utilized versions of my Gold XP patches?



You bet! 8)


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## gmet (Feb 12, 2007)

Moonchilde @ 12th February 2007 said:


> Well, thats the kicker... I don't use the release samples. I use a convolution. There are just too many issues with the release samples... for example, how the sustain samples have an un-natural release to blend into the release trails. Also, sometimes the trails trigger after a sample sustains out if it isn't a sample that is indefinite... and other odds and ends that cause problems with them.



I presume then that your patches do not have the release sample programmed?

Justin


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## José Herring (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP*



Fernando Warez @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> Moonchilde @ Mon Feb 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Is anyone interested in the customized and full sample utilized versions of my Gold XP patches?
> ...




Me too.


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

Justin M @ February 12th 2007 said:


> I presume then that your patches do not have the release sample programmed?
> 
> Justin



No, I don't use them myself so I didn't include them. However, without them, you are free to use a convolution that will blend with other libraries without worrying about matching the EW reverb trails. The only samples that will have the natural ambiance will be the percussion samples and the harp.

I wonder if EW ever got those convolution reverbs out of that Sony unit... I'll go ask.


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## careyford (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm interested, too. (Please.) :oops:


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## tfishbein82 (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Discovery about EWQLSO Gold XP*



josejherring @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> Fernando Warez @ Mon Feb 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Moonchilde @ Mon Feb 12 said:
> ...


I'd love them too.


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## gmet (Feb 12, 2007)

Moonchilde @ 12th February 2007 said:


> I wonder if EW ever got those convolution reverbs out of that Sony unit... I'll go ask.



I have asked that question so many times :( :

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... php?t=1876
http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=214

Justin


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

I like the concertgebouw a lot, it sounds very similar to EW's release trails, and I often find myself using it... however, the creator has specifically stated it is not commercially usable. So, I'm really quite out of luck on that if I want to use it in a production environment, sadly. It was the closest I've heard to EW's Benaroya hall sound in the release samples.

Perhaps if there were other alternatives, cheap or free, we could post them along with the custom patch library.

P.S. Perhaps you can help support me over at SO to release those IRs! http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... php?t=7223


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## sirbellog (Feb 12, 2007)

Hello Moonchilde,
I'm definitely interested too and so 'd really like to get your programs for Gold XP !
How can we have them ?


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

Well, I need to finish them first, since I just discovered the unused stuff yesterday. I'm currently about 40% done, probably another 2 weeks of work to get this done at the latest. I've been working really hard to get these in good working order, and it takes time to make sure things are nice and uniform.

When they're done, I'm going to ask for there to be a sticky thread for custom Kontakt 2 patches where we can post custom patches or links to them.

For mine, I'll probably collect people's emails and make an email list to send the library out. That way I can do updates to it after people give feed back and when scripts become more inter-compatible in the future.


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## gmet (Feb 12, 2007)

Moonchilde @ 12th February 2007 said:


> I like the concertgebouw a lot, it sounds very similar to EW's release trails, and I often find myself using it... however, the creator has specifically stated it is not commercially usable. So, I'm really quite out of luck on that if I want to use it in a production environment, sadly. It was the closest I've heard to EW's Benaroya hall sound in the release samples.
> 
> Perhaps if there were other alternatives, cheap or free, we could post them along with the custom patch library.
> 
> P.S. Perhaps you can help support me over at SO to release those IRs! http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... php?t=7223



Jus written a reply at Soundsonline. BTW it transpires that the IR I mentioned on Soundsonline was the concertgebouw Brugge (not Amsterdam) but after reading a book about the Benaroya it transpires it was also based on the Musikvereinsaal Vienna. A free IR of the Musikvereinsaal was included on a CD with SOS mag some time back and this is what I now use.

Justin


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

Which magazine volume was it? Is it a true stereo IR as well?


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

fv @ February 12th 2007 said:


> Hi,
> 
> If they missed (or left out) this much, it also makes you wonder how much (if any) will be missed when they switch to their new sampler PLAY. It's also interesting that they use the size of the sample lib as a marketing feature yet, you may find that there is either just dead space at the end of some samples or some extraneous noise (such as someone talking or shuffling after playing their note). That all factors into the size that's boasted about but the extraneous unused portions should not really be considered (assuming that size matters to people). Not to pick on EW as they aren't the only guilty of this.
> 
> FV



I agree. I'm quite disappointed that they have advertised the size and "chromatic sampling" yet haven't offered that in their factory patches. I mean, it is indeed ALMOST fully chromatically sampled, yet you could not tell by looking at the insides of the patches. Many many samples are stretched 2 or 3 zones and there are perfectly good ones in those sample folders to fill the gaps. I certainly do not trust them when it comes to patch programming, I've always been let down when it comes to that. *However, their samples are definitely top notch sounding and worth buying the license for.* I've found one or two duplicate sample folders so far, and I have a lot more to go through so maybe I will stumble upon more instruments and what not.

At the very least, I am happy now that I know there are chromatic samples in my library, but the amount of work that it takes to get this library to it's full potential should NOT be placed on the user's shoulders in this way. I will absolutely avoid PLAY at all costs until they answer whether or not we can build and customize instruments, and every time I've asked at SO the question never gets answered. I am most definitely sticking to Kontakt 2 since I know I can do what I want with it and I don't have to do it the "EW" way.


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## Olias (Feb 12, 2007)

i would love to get the updated patches. you are very generous to offer this!


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

Here is an example of the Wagner Tuben sustain samples. You can see there is a lot missing compared to whats available! Huge difference IMO. All these samples needed was some tuning. They weren't perfect, but many of the samples just aren't going to be, even the ones included in the factory presets.


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## Fernando Warez (Feb 12, 2007)

Moonchilde @ Mon Feb 12 said:


> Here is an example of the Wagner Tuben sustain samples. You can see there is a lot missing compared to whats available! Huge difference IMO. All these samples needed was some tuning. They weren't perfect, but many of the samples just aren't going to be, even the ones included in the factory presets.



Interesting! Now go back to work, we want those patches ASAP! :lol: 

Seriously, i cant wait to hear this. :wink:


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## tfishbein82 (Feb 12, 2007)

Since we all know that getting the Benaroya Hall IR out of EW has been a two-year fruitless task, I've decided to try another route.

I sent Gary Garritan a PM asking him (A) if he recorded the hall IR; and (B) would he be willing to share it.

I know that he recorded instruments there a couple years back for use in GPOA. I also know that he's been planning Real Spaces (an IR engine - which now looks to be built into his new sampler). So I think there's a strong likelihood that he has them. Whether or not he's willing to give them out free (as EW has suggested they would), I don't know - especially considering it will probably be in one of his future products.

I'll keep everyone posted on anything I hear back.


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## Moonchilde (Feb 12, 2007)

That would be really awesome of Gary. Although, I don't think he'd like to give his competitors some muscle against his own products.

EW really should release them. They will probably be included in PLAY, I did notice a Reverb knob on the interface. I am not sure if that will be for synthetic reverb, release sample mix control, or actual convolution.


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## Scott Cairns (Feb 12, 2007)

tfishbein82 @ Tue Feb 13 said:


> I sent Gary Garritan a PM asking him (A) if he recorded the hall IR; and (B) would he be willing to share it.



That would be nice if he did Alan.

Moonchilde, my hat goes off to you for the hard work and discoveries made. :wink:


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## José Herring (Feb 13, 2007)

He may just do it. You never know. I don't think any IR of any hall is going to make or break somebodies decision to by GPO advanced. I think it would be a classy gesture on Gary's part and in my conversations with him he's been very helpful in the past.

best,

Jose


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## gmet (Feb 13, 2007)

Moonchilde @ 12th February 2007 said:


> Which magazine volume was it? Is it a true stereo IR as well?



It is true stereo (16 bit, 44KHZ) but I cant quite remember where it came from maybe this:

http://www.soundonsound.com/dvd/dvd002.php

Edit - I've found it :lol: :

http://www.voxengo.com/impulses/
(IM Reverbs Pack 2)

You may also be interested in this article:


http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JASMAN000110000006002841000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes said:


> The values of reverberation time, at all measured frequencies, for fully occupied Benaroya Hall are within 0.1 sec of the corresponding values in the Grossermusikvereinssaal in Vienna


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## Moonchilde (Feb 13, 2007)

Very cool, I will look into it when I get home later today. Thanks a bunch!


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## Moonchilde (Mar 7, 2007)

Just a status update: 

This is going to take longer than I expected. Originally, I was just going to put the "new" samples in and tune those accordingly... However, a ton of samples are just out of tune "just because." Especially stuff in the short articulations. So when the new samples are tuned they don't match the out of tune original samples. Not all the original samples are out of tune... but there are quite a bit so crossfading causes issues amongst other things.

Basically, I'm retuning everything. It really does make a difference after the samples have been tuned and the patch library will be that much more pleasant to use after the work is done. My free time is also not what it used to be, but hey, I'm doing what I can.

Thanks for the patience!


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## Dynamitec (Mar 7, 2007)

Hi Moonchilde!



> Basically, I'm retuning everything. It really does make a difference after the samples have been tuned and the patch library will be that much more pleasant to use after the work is done. My free time is also not what it used to be, but hey, I'm doing what I can



Welcome to my world  Ohhh, how i understand you...


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## Moonchilde (Mar 7, 2007)

It is so time consuming, especially when you have THOUSANDS of samples to tune :( Customers really shouldn't have to do what the developer should have done.

I'm just really disappointed with the effort put into this library.


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## Dynamitec (Mar 7, 2007)

I absolutely agree with you! That's why it takes me sooo long to develop my library. I'm hand-cutting, spectral-editing and tuning every single of my samples...

But stop...i'm thinking about doing the library untuned and only rough cutted... if i had users like you i would be glad. They could cut and tune the samples and send them back to me. So in fact they would be paying for their work... >8o ... ok, bad idea. Just kidding of course. 

But maybe you should ask them if they want to have your tuned samples and pay YOU for it


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## Moonchilde (Mar 7, 2007)

Well, I'm almost to the point where I want to demand a free library or something to compensate for their lack of effort. But then I'd probably have to do work on whatever else they have :( I also know if I brought it up at SO I'd get the spin around that their stuff is fine and all that. I even mentioned that they did a lot of sample stretching but advertised their product as chromatically sampled (vs programmed :() Well, it is 98% chromatically sampled but some samples can't be used because of loud pops or they're just simply way out of tune, and some don't even exist. The reply I got was most of the unused samples were "kicked out" because the "next sample up sounded better..." I didn't even care to bring up the fact that some samples are stetched 3 to 5 zones which I think is really unacceptable given there are chromatic samples available because in the long run, they don't care.

I don't think I'm buying any future EW products since they'll be locked in their PLAY sampler. Then you will HAVE to use their stuff as is and if you aren't happy you're shit out of luck. Actually, after this Gold ordeal I think I will be steering clear of their products anyway, because I can't trust that their products will have good programming or will live up to how they're advertised. They also don't care to listen to their customers when it comes to issues with the product, and to get a "fixed" product you have to buy the upgrade. I remember when people wanted a fix for some stuff in Gold and they said "oh that will be fixed in Gold XP" which I really don't like. Turns out Gold XP has a bunch of problems too.



Dynamitec @ March 7th 2007 said:


> But stop...i'm thinking about doing the library untuned and only rough cutted... if i had users like you i would be glad. They could cut and tune the samples and send them back to me. So in fact they would be paying for their work... >8o ... ok, bad idea. Just kidding of course.



Now that I think about it, that kind of does piss me off even more... because I'm basically doing EW's work for them with no form of compensation for my time other than finally being able to use their library satisfied which I should have been able to do from the beginning.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 7, 2007)

Supposedly they'd already done many of these fixes and were going to give them to us for free. Eventually after much nagging from us on their board about when we'd finally get these fixes, Nick eventually said it was just too complicated to give us the correct files . . . for reasons he claimed we wouldn't understand.

They do have a way of pissing you off when it comes to stuff like this. The video tutorials for Choirs took MONTHS after they shot them before they finally posted them. But at least then, they did finally deliver on the promise.


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## Moonchilde (Mar 7, 2007)

One other thing that pissed me off was how Doug promised us the Benaroya Hall convolution and said he had no problem releasing it to registered users of Gold or Gold XP. But now, if you want it, you have to upgrade to PLAY. They gave a bunch of us the spin for about 2 years saying it was stuck on a Sony machine, some of us have been wait patiently for it. I really don't like their marketing tactics, how the next "fix" is always the next upgrade.

It was recently brought up by me at SoundsOnline forum, after Doug's answer I just didn't care to further make an issue about it because like I said, I felt the users waiting for it were given the spin for 2 years. I just don't care at this point and they can do whatever they want, but I won't be getting any more of their products and I stopped posting at SO forums. But what is one customer in a sea of many?

I also don't believe one word of what Nick was saying, because here I am tuning this shit on my own free time. They could have done that too.

I remember the issue about Choirs not having correct ranges for SATB. Supposedly that was limited by Kompakt, but I don't see how considering you can load as many instances as you want and you have DFD. But I guess that is just another thing the user wouldn't understand.


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## tangram (Mar 8, 2007)

Great work Moonchilde!

I would very much like to receive the updated patches!

Thank you in advance!

/Mats


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## gmet (Oct 4, 2007)

Hi Moonchilde,

Sorry to drag up this old thread but did you ever get any where with your new patches?

BTW - the subject of releasing the IR has been brought up again on Soundsonline recently.

Justin


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## Moonchilde (Oct 4, 2007)

About 25% (50% Gold) done? I haven't touched it for a while, other things have been coming up that have taken my attention away from it.

I don't think Doug will release the IR outside of PLAY, no matter what was said in the past. I picked up Wizooverb 2/5 a while back and I think it sounds just fine, so I'm no longer interested in bothering with EW anymore. If they release it, I'd probably download it. If not, no big loss IMO. There are some really good reverbs in the Wizoo package.


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## madbulk (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm just seeing this thread for the first time. Must've been sleeping thru march. EW still makes up a big part of my template, so I'd love to have these fixes. And I would imagine most of us who've expressed interest would be willing to give you a few bucks for your efforts, so you could go get yourself another EW lib. 
I'm assuming you are saving fixed patches alongside the originals and not replacing the factory patches, right? Is there any advantage to juxtaposing the two, as in, add some out of tune to the tuned and get fatter? or does that just produce phase wreckage?


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## Moonchilde (Oct 4, 2007)

You could do whatever you want really. I'm replacing the older patches, but not until I finish all my stuff. When I do, I plan on deleting the old directories containing the old patches.

Sadly, I work all day on a computer doing boring stuff, so when I get home, I haven't had much desire to spend time on the computer doing things I want. I can't believe its been six months now and I still don't have this done :( Ah well, after October I'll be able to start up again, I just have too much stuff going on at the moment. I'd really like to get this done.


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## polypx (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm curious about what percentage of the 32 GB drive space is actually being used by EWQL Gold instruments. 

ie. how much padding they gave it.


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## Moonchilde (Oct 4, 2007)

Well, I can say for sure there is unused stuff in XP. For example, a lot of the percussion has all 3 mic positions. Only 1 (stage) is being used in XP. So, at least for percussion, only a 3rd is being used. I haven't really had a chance to go through XP yet as far as strings, winds, and brass goes.

As for Gold, there were a few duplicate folders for patches, so I can guess maybe 50 - 150 mb per duplicate. A lot of brass staccatos had a lot of extra samples not used, about 5 to 10 per velocity layer. Lower register of the trumpets staccato patch had a sample that was stretched five zones when there were 4 samples readily available. That particular patch has a lot of unused samples.

For example:

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/602/432314735174dl1.jpg

I forgot which particular patch that was. Top is with all the samples, bottom is out of the box EW programming. That one has 24 unused samples that were perfectly usable. Just one example out of many that has stuff unused. Some patches in Gold only has 2 or 3 missing. Some patches don't have unused samples, but don't have chromatic sampling either... and some patches actually have the full folder of samples used in it.

There are a few samples that aren't usuable, ones that slide out of tune midway through or have a really loud POP or click somewhere within the sample. Fixable with an audio editor, but not something I can resample, fix, and distribute since that goes against the ToS.

Thats just in Gold.

Like I said, I don't know a whole lot about XP, I've just started through it the last I left off of the patch project which was about two months ago.


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