# Kontakt 5 libraries db loss



## Chris Lollis (Feb 24, 2014)

Ok, I've searched this one but came up with nothing.
Mid session today, everyone of my K5 libraries have lost some massive decibels.

I thought at first maybe my ears were just getting burned for the day considering I've been writing and recording in Kontakt for the last 8 hours or so, but my ears do not deceive me, looking at all my meters and a few test all of a sudden every library I load is very noticeably quieter!
I can max the fader on my channel and its not even clipping, if I push the output inside Kontakt it brings it back to almost working volume but these are libraries that I'm usually backing off the gain on like Voxos and some LASS multis.
I've restarted my PC twice throughout my work day just out of habit of maintenance, so I don't think it's any sort of internal issue going on with my rig..
I'm just completely stumped on this one! Anyone ever heard of this before, is this something that's escaped my rabid past researching??
If anyone has ANY suggestions I would greatly appreciate them at this point..
I've just never seen this before and it's seriously making me worry and frustrated!
Thanks guys!


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## Reegs (Feb 24, 2014)

A couple of possible causes and troubleshooting strategies come to mind, not sure if any of them account for what you're hearing. Apologies if you've already checked.

1a) Are the volume outputs of your instruments in Kontakt set to 0db? There's a little slider on each instrument panel on the right that lets you control its input to Kontakt's mixer. 

1b) If instruments aren't loading at 0dB, check the Default Instrument load level in the Options menu-- there's a setting for -6dB. Maybe it got switched?

2) Is it strictly Kontakt? Do any other synths or sample players exhibit this problem?

3a) Do you have phantom CC data going to the instruments? Perhaps a fader on your keyboard is glitching and sending CC7 or CC11 data at a low value in? MIDI-OX could locate, or on playback you might see the aforementioned patch volume slider move around. Similarly, is there automation present on the tracks? Did you hide a volume envelope somewhere on the MIDI track?

3b) Ensure that the VST output tracks (audio) are also not automated and their faders are 0dB. 

3c) Test a completely new midi track. Can you isolate the problem to a particular track? If that fails, try a new project. Does the problem go away?

4) Much less likely, but what's the panning and processing look like on your track? Any funky doubling or EQ work that might cause some of the amplitude to cancel?

Hope that helps.


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## Chris Lollis (Feb 25, 2014)

I thought I had went through every possible scenario before creating a thread here but after reading through your troubleshooting suggestions I realize that two of your possible suspects are most likely the culprit.
I do have a bad habit (trying to break it) in the bigger projects with a high channel count, of bouncing down and loading Kontakt into the same channel SO there is the possibility that an envelope had crept into my current "live" midi channel.
Also, I did check the default fader in Kontakt and its set to zero as usual because I never do any gain adjustment inside of Kontakt BUT the -6 db pad I have not checked, not sure how I could've engaged it if I did but I've defibately seen more bizarre things than that happen so I will definately check that!
I checked everything else suggested but I am willing to bet that one of these suspects you've suggested are to blame.

A million thank you's to you Reggs!! I feel like an idiot that I haven't checked those options you so kindly posted, looks like I'm headed back to noobville 
I seriously appreciate your reply!! Your a gentleman and a scholar


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 25, 2014)

Reegs @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> 1b) If instruments aren't loading at 0dB, check the Default Instrument load level in the Options menu-- there's a setting for -6dB. Maybe it got switched?



I'm not sure if its what you're referring to, but a classic gotcha is the (utterly pointless and irritating) midi volume setting buried in the instrument options of each Kontakt instrument. Check under the wrench in the Instrument Options tab, then controller tab. Under Midi Controller #7 range, set this to +12db, which is then the same as the Kontakt slider. Any volume less than this, if you ever use CC7 you'll never get it beyond that point. It's common to have it set at 0db, it can go as low as -12db! In these cases, you can't then control the Kontakt slider above the preset value, missing a potential 24 extra db.

I've no idea why it's there, I can't think of a single use for it - it just produces problems when its set to anything other than +12db. If you knock a CC7 controller by accident, you can bugger up your mix completely. In fact, due mostly to this and the sheer bore of changing the value for every single instrument (most devs I don't think know its even there, and its set all over the place), I usually have a little No CC7 script in the Kontakt multiscript, and just mix instrument volumes in audio, not midi.


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## Chris Lollis (Feb 25, 2014)

Most definately useless Guy! I couldn't agree more!
I've had this exact thing cause me hours and hours of troubleshooting and irritation in the past.
Actually on my "to do's" list now is to go back into each intstrument and reset the value to +12 db.
Quick question on this though since it seems you've fought the battle with this successfully, after goin back into each and every instrument and setting the CC value to +12 db do I need to save as? Re saving the library to the current configs or would the default "Would you like to save changes to instrument" that pops up when exiting the currently loaded library do the trick so once I spend the time (and prob lots of it) going through each instrument making these adjustments I never have to do it again?
I also do all of my mixing, volume etc in audio and never midi, but after this db issue last night I want to make sure whatever libs I'm loading are loading at the proper gain structure and values..
Thanks alot guys!! I really can't say enough how thankful I am for your input!!


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 25, 2014)

Chris Lollis @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Most definately useless Guy! I couldn't agree more!
> I've had this exact thing cause me hours and hours of troubleshooting and irritation in the past.
> Actually on my "to do's" list now is to go back into each intstrument and reset the value to +12 db.
> Quick question on this though since it seems you've fought the battle with this successfully, after goin back into each and every instrument and setting the CC value to +12 db do I need to save as? Re saving the library to the current configs or would the default "Would you like to save changes to instrument" that pops up when exiting the currently loaded library do the trick so once I spend the time (and prob lots of it) going through each instrument making these adjustments I never have to do it again?
> ...



Yes, saving is a bit of a nightmare. If you "save as" over your existing nkis, then next time you open them you'll be fine. But all your existing projects will still be stuck at the old value. So you need to "save as", and save a new version of the template with all the values fixed - and even then all your old projects will still be wrong.

Grrr.

That's what led me to add No CC7 as a multiscript and abandon the Kontakt volume completely (beyond setting a default level). I can't now change anything accidentally or otherwise, unless I grab the Kontakt fader and then resave. Although it feels like a shame in a way to lose that functionality, life did get a whole lot easier afterwards!


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## Chris Lollis (Feb 25, 2014)

OMG are you freaking kidding me?!?! That is prob one of the most irritating facts I've faced this MONTH!! Jeez! Good to know, thanks alot for the heads up on that one! Something tells me that you have spent a many hour fixing that one in your own setup to develop the working knowledge you have!! Thank you so much for sharing with me and preventing a possible meltdown on my behalf lol.

I am happy to report that I believe I've fixed my db loss issue at the moment.
To the earlier suggestion, my -6db pad HAD infact been ticked within the Kontakt engine options!!
Does anyone know if -6db is the default for Kontakt 5?
Because I haven't been in the options menu in atleast a week and it seriously confuses me how this option could have just ticked itself...
I swear I thought I had already checked that too but apparently not the case...
Argh!!
Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the support here!!


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## Mike Greene (Feb 25, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> I'm not sure if its what you're referring to, but a classic gotcha is the (utterly pointless and irritating) midi volume setting buried in the instrument options of each Kontakt instrument. Check under the wrench in the Instrument Options tab, then controller tab. Under Midi Controller #7 range, set this to +12db, which is then the same as the Kontakt slider. Any volume less than this, if you ever use CC7 you'll never get it beyond that point. It's common to have it set at 0db, it can go as low as -12db! In these cases, you can't then control the Kontakt slider above the preset value, missing a potential 24 extra db.
> 
> I've no idea why it's there, I can't think of a single use for it - it just produces problems when its set to anything other than +12db. If you knock a CC7 controller by accident, you can bugger up your mix completely. In fact, due mostly to this and the sheer bore of changing the value for every single instrument (most devs I don't think know its even there, and its set all over the place), I usually have a little No CC7 script in the Kontakt multiscript, and just mix instrument volumes in audio, not midi.


I didn't know about this. :oops: 

Guy, this might be worth re-posting in the Kontakt section. Most developers read that section, and I'll bet I'm not the only one who never realized this was a hidden problem that's so easily fixed on our end.


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## Tod (Feb 25, 2014)

Chris Lollis @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Most definately useless Guy! I couldn't agree more!
> I've had this exact thing cause me hours and hours of troubleshooting and irritation in the past.
> Actually on my "to do's" list now is to go back into each intstrument and reset the value to +12 db.



Actually this has been with us since the old K2 days and I think I prefer having the option to set it where I want it. I don't think I have any libraries that won't go red at higher CC07 values if they're set to a +12db. 

When ever I do get a new library, one of the first things I do is check to see the relationship between the CC07 values and the output levels.

On more than one occasion I've run into a library where the Amplifier Volumes have been lowered significantly. You have to be careful and check out the relationship with each group and how it's all setup, but I will usually raise the amplifier volumes if it's possible and doesn't present any problems.

If a libraries samples have been recorded or mixed/rendered at lower than normal levels, then I might set the instrument options to a +6db or even a +12db if they're really bad.

I like to take full advantage of my controllers including CC07, and using the full travel 0 to 127 will not only give more room to maneuver, but more accuracy. Although with Kontakts built in lag on the volume, the improved accuracy is rather insignificant. If I find I need things up a bit, I have no qualms about raising my DAW's output for that instrument some.

Heh heh, I guess my main concern is that I'd hate to see developers arbitrarily setting the output option to a +12db. o/~


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 25, 2014)

Dammit, I knew there'd be one...  

I guess increased resolution on useful travel is a reason to have it, but I'd argue that you're fixing a problem at the wrong end. If the instrument goes way into the red at the top end of travel, the instrument itself is set up wrong anyway. By setting it to anything other than +12, there will always be disparity between the two controllers - the one on the gui and the other by CC7, and to me that's a whole world of pain. So much so that in fact I've given up with CC7 completely.

In terms of any advice for devs, I'd strongly recommend +12 in the CC7 settings, and the overall level to not hit the end stop unless you go totally nuts and play 50 notes at once or something. I won't start a thread in the Kontakt subforum just yet to see if Tod's position is as a minority one as I think it is - if people generally find it a useful feature then I'll just grump off.


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## polypx (Feb 25, 2014)

IMO it should be set to 0 db. If the gain staging of the instrument is done correctly, you don't want to add gain with CC7. You would only change it to +12 to correct for a poorly designed instrument.


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## Tod (Feb 25, 2014)

polypx @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> You would only change it to +12 to correct for a poorly designed instrument.



Exactly. o-[][]-o


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## RiffWraith (Feb 25, 2014)

polypx @ Wed Feb 26 said:


> IMO it should be set to 0 db. If the gain staging of the instrument is done correctly, you don't want to add gain with CC7. You would only change it to +12 to correct for a poorly designed instrument.



Disagree. Nothing wrong with adding gain with CC7. It's not as if the sound of the instrument changes. Besides, what happens if you load the instrument, and it's not loud enough? You add gain (level). 

+12 in the CC7 settings is a big plus, b/c you have the full range of the K slider with your MID fader(s). If it's set to 0, you cant push the K slider past 0 with the fader, which can be a PITA to overcome. You of course dont want to clip K's op, but having the flexibility to move the K slider(s) as you need to is paramount to work flow. Well, for me, anyway.

Cheers.


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## Tod (Feb 25, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> polypx @ Wed Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> > IMO it should be set to 0 db. If the gain staging of the instrument is done correctly, you don't want to add gain with CC7. You would only change it to +12 to correct for a poorly designed instrument.
> ...



Aah, I don't know what K sliders with MID fader(s) are but I assume they are some kind of a midi controller, is that right? 

If so, I wonder how many folks have K sliders with MID fader(s). Is that the norm? I don't know really, I know I don't. However, I think it would be just as easy for those that do have these controllers to go in and set the intruments options for their purposes as it is for anyone else, right? :wink:


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## mk282 (Feb 26, 2014)

"K slider" - "Kontakt slider". "MID fader" - "MIDI fader" (on the controller)


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 26, 2014)

polypx @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> IMO it should be set to 0 db. If the gain staging of the instrument is done correctly, you don't want to add gain with CC7. You would only change it to +12 to correct for a poorly designed instrument.



No, that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what is going on here.

Setting the controller value to +12db does not at anything, just as Riff says. It sets the maximum point on Kontakt's own fader that you can reach, and Kontakt's fader tops out at +12db. By setting the value lower, you then can only get a certain way up the K fader travel (typically causing frustration, confusion and hair pulling out, cos most people don't know this control even exists).


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## Chris Lollis (Feb 26, 2014)

Ya know, I didn't mean to spark this but it's raised a few interesting points.
For once, I see both sides here. I think it all boils down to workflow, how you personally learned Kontakt and the personal techniques inside of Kontakt that determine who feels what about this (annoying IMO) option.
Leads me to think NI just might know what their doin and the debate goin on here is most likely a pretty old debate from some beta team NI used to develop this engine and option.

I know what side of this fence I stand on, however I do fully support the other sides concern in all developers potentially bypassing this option, don't think it'll ever happen but I do see the initial concern.

Perhaps the option of +12 db to -12db and everything between isn't the real problem for people like Guy and myself, maybe I could live with it if it weren't placed in such an inconspicuous location. Leading back to a point I very much agree with, Most people have no clue it's even there, how many beginners out there have given up on Kontakt because of the illusive nature of these potentially problematic options??

I see the importance to the Kontakt user that states it is paramount to their workflow, and I also see the importance of myself not wasting valuable writing time hunting down a db issue within Kontakt.

All good points guys! It's def motivated me to become more familiar with ALL possibilities in Kontakt and not just the ones I personally use in my approach and workflow!!


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## Chris Lollis (Feb 26, 2014)

Btw RiffWraith, I just picked up Euphoria, very cool work here, I see many very usable applications for this instrument!! Great work, thanks!!


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## polypx (Feb 26, 2014)

Maybe it would be best solved if the CC7 range was an overall preference in Kontakt, rather than something that could be set instrument by instrument.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 26, 2014)

polypx @ Wed Feb 26 said:


> Maybe it would be best solved if the CC7 range was an overall preference in Kontakt, rather than something that could be set instrument by instrument.



I don't really see how that would be useful either, in some ways worse. While its benefit is it would be easy to reset everything at once, it would serve no real function to globally restrict faders that I can think of.

What WOULD be genuinely useful though is a global "override instrument CC7 settings". That would be the best way forward, in fact - for those few who do use the restricted movement you still have it on a case-by-case basis, while everyone else can just have CC7 mirror the Kontakt slider and forget all about it.


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## TSU (Feb 26, 2014)

It is worth to check the Kontakt's master volume.
In some circumstances it affects all the instances.


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## Tod (Feb 26, 2014)

mk282 @ Wed Feb 26 said:


> "K slider" - "Kontakt slider". "MID fader" - "MIDI fader" (on the controller)



Aah, heh heh, okay, :oops: :roll: 

I think Chris says it best, it is an individual thing. 

I also agree it could be in a much much better place for easy and quick access. Maybe right clicking on the volume slider or the meters.


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## Ozymandias (Feb 27, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Feb 26 said:


> What WOULD be genuinely useful though is a global "override instrument CC7 settings".



By way of a footnote, there is a very kludgey multiscript "workaround" for this. It's arguably more interesting for its novelty value than its usefulness, though...


```
on init
    message("")  
    set_script_title("CC7 Full Range")
end on

on midi_in
    if ($MIDI_COMMAND=$MIDI_COMMAND_CC and $MIDI_BYTE_1=7)
        ignore_midi
        set_engine_par_m($ENGINE_PAR_VOLUME,($MIDI_BYTE_2 * 7875),$MIDI_CHANNEL,-1,-1)
    end if
end on
```

Load a few instruments and assign them to consecutive MIDI channels and you should find this overrides the instrument volume range.

The pitfall: It's not sending MIDI; it's sending an engine parameter. This is why each loaded instrument has to be assigned to a corresponding, consecutive MIDI channel. i.e, instrument 1 on channel 1, 2 on 2, 3 on 3, and so on. (Instruments retain their slot number when you drag them up and down the Kontakt pane, so there's that to consider too.)


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## Big Bob (Feb 27, 2014)

That's interesting. I didn't know there was a set_engine_par_m :o 

What precisely does the 'group' parameter specify? It looks as if it's maybe the 'original' instrument slot in the multi?

Is this documented anywhere? I don't think I've ever seen it in the KSP reference. But then I forget a lot of things these days :lol: 

Rejoice,

Bob


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## Ozymandias (Feb 27, 2014)

Hi Bob,

No, it's undocumented. There's a get_engine_par_m as well, incidentally, along with some other undocumented commands.

Another member here posted some code to control volume using this command a while back. I just borrowed it for a script of my own, so I don't really know much about it all.


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