# Group insert vs Instrument insert? What's the main difference?



## argitoth (Jun 12, 2013)

Hellooo, another question... 

Let's say I'm making a drum kit sample library and I have a snare that has 3 mics. Each mic is its own group, and the 3 groups always trigger at the same time.

Now let's saying I have other insturments each with 3 groups, kick hat toms cymbals, etc.

I want to apply a compressor to the snare, so I create a compressor, one for each snare group. I do the same for kick, toms, hat, cymbals.

Does this mean that each voice will have an instance of a compressor? That's not what I want. I want ONE instance of a compressor to affect ALL voices coming from the 3 mics. Does that mean I should be using instrument effects rather than group effects?

Edit: To be more clear, I want one compressor PER instrument, so every 3 groups (3 mics per instrument) will have one compressor, so 5 compressors total for 5 instruments.


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## germancomponist (Jun 12, 2013)

It depends. I would use an instance of a compressor for each voice. Makes a lot of sense. ..


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## argitoth (Jun 12, 2013)

My question is more this: Are group inserts strictly per-voice? And therefore CPU intensive and inefficient?

In other words, group inserts are NOT per group. They are NOT per number of groups (say you edit 3 groups simulatenously, add a compressor, you added 3 compressors instead of adding 1? and you get 3 compressors * voices * active groups?) They are ACTUALLY per voice per group?

Edit: So it's voices * active groups = # of compressors active at once?


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## argitoth (Jun 12, 2013)

I think I got a conclusive answer when testing a kick and a cymbal, both in the same group, using one compressor. Triggering the kick while the cymbal was ringing did not affect the level of the cymbal; there was no ducking. Conclusion: Cymbal and kick had two separate compressors despite being in the same group with the same compressor. That means group effects are per-voice, not per-group. To overcome this limitation would require Kontakt 5 using bus effects.


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## mk282 (Jun 13, 2013)

Yes. Group FX are always per-voice, that's why most of them can be modulated with envelopes and LFOs, whereas instrument FX cannot. This is why you'd usually put a filter in Group FX if you want to modulate cutoff with internal modulators.


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## Mike Greene (Jun 13, 2013)

mk282 @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> Yes. Group FX are always per-voice, that's why most of them can be modulated with envelopes and LFOs, whereas instrument FX cannot. This is why you'd usually put a filter in Group FX if you want to modulate cutoff with internal modulators.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but my understanding is that group effects effect the whole group at once, and not per voice. At least for inserts.

To test this, I set up a lowpass filer as a Group Insert effect. I wrote a test script that opens the filter up for a loud note, and closes it for a soft note. I play a loud note and the note plays nice and bright, as expected. Then I immediately play a soft note (while the first note is still ringing,) and not only is the new note muffled (because of the closed filter,) but the _first_ note is all of a sudden muffled as well. This suggests that the group insert effect treats the group as a whole, as opposed to independently per voice.

But again, I may be misunderstanding . . .


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## germancomponist (Jun 13, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Thu Jun 13 said:


> mk282 @ Thu Jun 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. Group FX are always per-voice, that's why most of them can be modulated with envelopes and LFOs, whereas instrument FX cannot. This is why you'd usually put a filter in Group FX if you want to modulate cutoff with internal modulators.
> ...



You are right, Sir!


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## polypx (Jun 13, 2013)

Mike, it depends what's controlling that filter.

If you use velocity (which is note by note), then one cutoff is not affected by the next. Two different cutoffs can ring over each other.

If you use a controller, or an absolute scripted cutoff, then yes both will change.

I think in these cases, it depends on the control source for the insert. But interesting to push the limits of this...

cheers, Dan


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## Mike Greene (Jun 13, 2013)

By golly, you're right!

My test used a script and a set_engine_par($ENGINE_PAR_CUTOFF, xxx, 1,1) command and acted globally on the group. But after reading your post, I tried a velocity modulator (instead of changing cutoff by scripting) and indeed, it's voice by voice in that case. I'm happy to be wrong, because this is gonna simplify a particular instrument I'm working on. 8)


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## mk282 (Jun 14, 2013)

So yeah, as I mentioned, it's per-voice, not per-group.


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## polypx (Jun 14, 2013)

It would be nice if there was a way to get EVENT_PARs to modulate Group insert parameters. Then we could have more "per-note" control sources than just velocity and pitch.


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## mk282 (Jun 14, 2013)

That's true, it would be nice.


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