# Why does this sound so much better than what we're doing today



## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

Warning, this topic not for anybody under 30. :lol: 

Take a listen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUo9ogmtBoU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUo9ogmt ... re=related)

I'm doing some research for a new project I'm going for and I can't get over what these guys where doing back then that's lacking today. Besides the real instruments going on. The production just seems to be clear, expressive and balanced. The kick is not slammin' but is full and bassy. The instruments are all upfront but not obnoxious. 

Maybe like RCTech was saying. The instrumentalist are playing rather softly making the sound fuller and more expressive. Then the recording levels boosted a little. I remember back in the old days when we use to use tape everybody tried to get everything "hot' on the tape. Is that what's going on here too.

Any help analyzing the recording techniques use here would be helpful.

best,

Jose


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## gsilbers (Mar 12, 2012)

http://www.haywiremovie.com/#


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

gsilbers @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> http://www.haywiremovie.com/#



Like I said. Children need not bother to answer.

José


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## RiffWraith (Mar 12, 2012)

I dont think that the Bullitt example necessarily sounds better than what we're doing today. Some things, sure. Then, there are plenty of things that sound better today then did back then. 



gsilbers @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> http://www.haywiremovie.com/#



As it is devoid of words, not too sure what the post is trying to say.

Yes, the audio in that trailer sounds like dog poo - and I am shocked that they actaully put that up - but anyone who knows audio will tell you the original does not sound like that w/o even hearing the original; that what you are hearing is phasing errors created when collapsing the stereo image down to mono (which shouldn't happen to that extent).

Cheers.


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## reddognoyz (Mar 12, 2012)

Yes, well there's a lot less going on in the bullit soundtrack, I am not fond of that kick sound myself, kind of suitcase-ee. I feel that todays production values are much higher than back then, (that bullit track is pretty loose), but there's also a lot of wham bam sound design kinda stuff that can cover up for a lack of musicality. The haywire trailer a case in point, the focus is so much more on the wham bam than any sort of theme.


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## Lex (Mar 12, 2012)

Everything is very compressed, saturated, harmonics slightly distorted, sweet HF roll off, drums played soft but crancked on tape and board, etc etc?

It just sounds old, nothing more...lol..


alex


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

Lex @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> Everything is very compressed, saturated, harmonics slightly distorted, sweet HF roll off, drums played soft but crancked on tape and board, etc etc?
> 
> It just sounds old, nothing more...lol..
> 
> ...



Of course it sounds old. It is old.

Compressed how? Tape compression or mechanically compressed. What kinds of mics? Do mics compress a little?

What does "sweet hf roll off" ? is there a particular frequency that's rolled off? Like above 5k? or 8k or 16k? I like the smooth sound.

I'm trying to find out what's working about it and not what's wrong with it by today's standards. Of course there's a lot wrong with it, but its more musical, not loud, expressive and not mechanical sounding like the crap that gsibers posted.

Try to focus on the positive here guys.

Yes, the kick drum in the first recording I heard was different. Then I posted the original which as a different kick that I don't like as much.

Here's a link to the first recording I heard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm4MvinoOTw&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm4Mvino ... re=related)

I think its a bit better.


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## synergy543 (Mar 12, 2012)

Its the live element I think you're connecting with.

Reminds me of when my son was listening to some Led Zepplin covers that were just terribly bland - totally lacking emotion and expression. He thought they were really cool though. Somehow though he didn't connect with the original ones in the same way I do.

Maybe when you start to lose hair, the sound reflects differently off your head?


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

synergy543 @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> Maybe when you start to lose hair, the sound reflects differently off your head?



Ha! Very well, could possibly be true.


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## MacQ (Mar 12, 2012)

There is no kick in the first example until the drum solo. That's the difference. The bottom end is all bass, with no bass drum. No beater, nothing in the mid range, it's just a well play bass guitar.

It's an odd thing to do, but it works well, as you point out. I prefer that feel for this kind of stuff, too.

The "old" sound can be easily achieved with EQ and plug-ins. Playing around with a UAD-2 Tape sim, trying various distortions, and then low-passing everything with a bump at like 250-400Hz.

All of that sound is completely achievable with the stuff you already own, I'd wager (even if you don't have a UAD-2 or one of those tape-sim plug-ins).

To get there faster, you could do a lot worse than picking up "Addictive Drums" by XLN Audio: http://www.xlnaudio.com/?page=products& ... ctivedrums

They're even having a special at the moment, I think. Haha, isn't everyone?

I think the meat of this groove is all Lalo on the page.

~Stu


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

thx,

I'd almost forgotten about addictive drums. Worth picking up now.


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## gsilbers (Mar 12, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> gsilbers @ Mon Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.haywiremovie.com/#
> ...



over 30 here. 

have you guys heard the soundtrack ?

check it out in itunes...

sorry.. go to your vinyl store and see if its available  

but truth be told... the score is actualy copying lalo. 
but the sound is amazing.


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## Mike Greene (Mar 12, 2012)

I've always had a tough time trying to match sounds like this, so I'll be interested in what some old-school types might have to say. With that disclaimer, here my thoughts:

The first thing that jumps out at me here is that the ride cymbal (and HH) is ultra loud in the mix. Ride doesn't get used so much nowadays, so that probably has a lot to do with the different sound right there. The suitcase sounding kick (which I kind of like) date stamps it as well. As I think about it, that's a pretty bad drum mix. Cool for a dated Film/TV sound, but if this was a jazz or Esquivel-style lounge record, I don't think the client would be too happy.

Brass is recorded hot to the point of distortion (which is typical,) probably at the preamp or tape stage, rather than distorting the mics themselves. Based on the sound, I'm guessing room mics, rather than individual mics. There's a cheesy delay of the trumpets that's kinda cool.

There's tape hiss on this as well, which shouldn't be underestimated in it's value. I remember adding barely perceptible vinyl noise to hip hop songs back in the day, and that was often a glue that really worked.

One thing I've been meaning to try in order to get an "older" sound is with a Transient Designer, which is basically a way of making slower "attacks" (like in an ADSR envelope.) Older equipment wasn't as responsive as new stuff, so supposedly the transients weren't as crisp as today. I think drums is where this would be especially noticeable, but I also want to try it with brass, because that's where I really struggle when trying to make my horn sections sound "old." I have yet to try it, though.


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

gsilbers @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > gsilbers @ Mon Mar 12 said:
> ...



I will. Modern take on Lalo would be a good thing. Thx.

I just got this tingling in my gut for some reason that this is coming back in the near future. Just going through a lot of production listings and I'm noticing a trend in movies. I need to get on top of it. Might finally get another film project that I can stomach doing the music to.

José


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## Niah (Mar 12, 2012)

What stu said,

Also, c'mon...it's LALO...it's BULLIT !

and there's alot of "children" under 30 who dig movies/scores from the era, some just love them, others are simply looking for cool samples for their music productions...


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## germancomponist (Mar 12, 2012)

A while back we bought an old master machine to do digital recordings from old master tapes for a company. 

What I had found out in only 1 second: The sound! The sound of the old recordings is awesome! The warmth, the bass and also the mid frequencies...., absolutely fine sound. 

I do not want to start a new discussion like analog vs digital, but the different is there! 

I think one of the most important things is that in the old days there were no computers involved. No 100% tuning and no 100% timing..... . And there are for sure other important things, like the recording technique e.t.c. .


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## MacQ (Mar 12, 2012)

Yeah ... David Holmes has been refining that sound for a long time. He's great ... Ocean's 11 was great MOSTLY because the score was totally right. I love those sounds, that sort of elusive "60's" quality of harmony and arrangement. You can put just about any of those cues on any scene and it's instantly chillaxed.

~Stu


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

Niah @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> What stu said,
> 
> Also, c'mon...it's LALO...it's BULLIT !
> 
> and there's alot of "children" under 30 who dig movies/scores from the era, some just love them, others are simply looking for cool samples for their music productions...



Yes I know. I'm just trying to discourage Choctrax and Ed from chiming in  

Mike, 
Good points. It's not that I'm so overwhelmed by the quality of production here. I just sooooo cooolllll! And, I just can't get passed it. And as I hear more and more snappy zippy productions with stellar audio, the less it starts to sound like music to me and starts to just sound like everybody else.

Transient designer on brass. Might give it a go. Distortion at the preamp stage is always a good thing imo.

I'm going on this wild idea that if we can take what was working back then and add to what's working now we could end up with a whole new level of production.


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

Holy Shit! David Holmes is cool!!

I've heard the name but never paid any attention to the music.


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## Nostradamus (Mar 12, 2012)

For me it just sounds like old music from a bygone era. Not bad, of course, but not necessarily better than good modern compositions.


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## germancomponist (Mar 12, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> I'm going on this wild idea that if we can take what was working back then and add to what's working now we could end up with a whole new level of production.



In the last years there were so many studios closed, because we now all have our own studio at home.... . 

The bad thing is: There was so many knowledge what is now where? 

Now we also have to be our own engineers, but without the experience what the engineers in the (old) studios had..... .


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

Nostradamus @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> For me it just sounds like old music from a bygone era. Not bad, of course, but not necessarily better than good modern compositions.



Well what nobody knows about me yet, is that I'm developing an alter trip hop ego. Its growing stronger inside of me everyday. Can't shake it. Someday I forget about him. Other days, he's almost all I think about. I think about giving him a name. I'm thinking Rusty Nails.

But stuff like this just gets under my skin in ways I can't describe yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LgrGHWSy6k

So slick so smooth so old school, yet hip as shit.


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## midphase (Mar 12, 2012)

Oh boy...another one of those threads (didn't we just wrap that other one in the composition section)?

Thankfully the over-30 discussion should keep Ed out of this discussion...although if you ask me it'd be better if it was an over-4o only thread!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 12, 2012)

I think that Piano in Blue is a step in this direction. Let's hope others follow. 

Let's not forget the sound of the individual players. Each studio cat had worked for years on 'their' sound. How long have you (not you Jose, but all of us) been working on your sound? I mean your sound when you play an instrument. What? You don't have a sound? Right. Neither do I. And here's one of the rubs. 

FWIW, Jack White has a great old-school aesthetic/attitude.

As for where to place a given LPF cutoff point, Jose, just use your ears and compare with an old mix that has the same elements as yours. Keep cutting until you match the ride's colour, for eg.

PS: we used to rely on our ears more than our eyes.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 12, 2012)

Kays, why even bother posting that? If you're bored walk into another thread that you find worthwhile.


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## lee (Mar 12, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> Kays, why even bother posting that? If you're bored walk into another thread that you find worthwhile.



There might have been a smiley hidden in his post.


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

midphase @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> Oh boy...another one of those threads (didn't we just wrap that other one in the composition section)?
> 
> Thankfully the over-30 discussion should keep Ed out of this discussion...although if you ask me it'd be better if it was an over-4o only thread!



In case you didn't notice I was specifically trying to avoid one of "those discussions" and asking for specific techniques, styles trends of the time, ect.... how to match that. I guess you're over 30 so you're allowed to post, but please keep it in mind the intent.

Ned,

I'll take a listen.


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## midphase (Mar 12, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> In case you didn't notice I was specifically trying to avoid one of "those discussions"



Good luck!


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## gsilbers (Mar 12, 2012)

anyone tried running strings or other orchestra elements through 1/4 inch?

maybe a whole mix?

or are those tape saturation plugins do about the same if you are not going to run it using those big 2inch 24 track tapes (or other pro tape recorders)
?


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

midphase @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Mar 12 said:
> 
> 
> > In case you didn't notice I was specifically trying to avoid one of "those discussions"
> ...



Yes. The title is misleading, but I had to get people's attention!!

gsilbers,

I think that tape can be pretty well simulated. I know that I've run stuff through pre's EQ's and compressors and you can get it pretty close to tape sound if you want to.


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## gsilbers (Mar 12, 2012)

cool. cause i gave up on that route a while back cause of the size and setup of analog tapes. and tape sat plugins there was like 2. 
now there are like 8-10 out there. 
so i never compared /test to see. 

and now its also about the samples.. like albion which was recorded thourhg tape and makes a big differece.
(and orch, play tech, compo etc)


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## José Herring (Mar 12, 2012)

gsilbers @ Mon Mar 12 said:


> cool. cause i gave up on that route a while back cause of the size and setup of analog tapes. and tape sat plugins there was like 2.
> now there are like 8-10 out there.
> so i never compared /test to see.
> 
> ...



Albion, might be a good step for orchestral stuff. The newer tape sims are suppose to be good. I only tried the URS one a few years back, but it just didn't feel right. It was cool at first, then just got on my nerves.

I know people that get good tape sounds by doing the weirdest things though. Any old analog amp you have, just run it through that and back. Also, heard of people using cassette tapes. That one I'm not so sure about though. Cassette as bad even when it was hip!

Which gives me an idea. Running a single through a tube pre to get that crunch might work too. I've seen people do it, but couldn't figure out why. More crunch in the drums and perhaps getting a little bit of that lazy feel.

José


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 12, 2012)

I suppose I should get around to sending some stems to my Roland SH-5's filters (ca mid-70s) for fun. Thanks for the reminder!


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## germancomponist (Mar 12, 2012)

You have to catch the sound in the act!


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## Waywyn (Mar 14, 2012)

It sounds much better to you, because this is how you experienced music when you grew up. To me it is the same. There was always Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, Beatles etc. going on in our house ... its just the sound you are familiar with and with in first line sounds more familiar to you.

I like both worlds. I like this "older" open sound, lots of headrooms, but also like the new compressed, saturated stuff which has a lot of impact going on.

It's like a hairstyle and a matter of taste ... and all this stuff about sounding so overcompressed and hurting the ear ... just turn down the goddamn volume


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 14, 2012)

Waywyn @ 14/3/2012 said:


> ... and all this stuff about sounding so overcompressed and hurting the ear ... just turn down the goddamn volume



Turning down the volume of a track that is too compressed will not make it less annoying, IMHO. That's the whole point of over-compression, that we still hear every part no matter how low the track is. Of course that means there's no contrast, relief (from visual arts), punch (because there's no dynamic range).


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## Waywyn (Mar 14, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Mar 14 said:


> Turning down the volume of a track that is too compressed will not make it less annoying, IMHO. That's the whole point of over-compression, that we still hear every part no matter how low the track is. Of course that means there's no contrast, relief (from visual arts), punch (because there's no dynamic range).



Hey Ned, ... yeh I am aware of this ... it was one of these unfunny jokes, since it is the only option to not exhaust your hears too much


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## TheUnfinished (Mar 14, 2012)

David Holmes IS seriously cool. I still have an old techno album of his from the early 90s... quite a different kettle of fish.


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## noiseboyuk (Mar 14, 2012)

Love Holmes too, but it's a different sound to this really.

For that matter, can anyone link anything made now that has this sound? Or, say, the Motown sound? I've read lots of good analysis and advice here and agree with much of it, but I strongly doubt that emulating what they did then will produce this sound. Every element has to be absolutely right - the micing, the recording space, the board, the gear, the tape machine. Happy to be proven wrong, it's just I haven't heard anything that comes close really.

Here's one that's just leapt to mind for emulating an old sound (not the Bullit sound, obviously) - Mark Ronson's Coldplay cover - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXKCDpzcZxc (note the youtube version has additional slow release compression on it). It does a pretty good job at sounding old imho, but it's certainly not the same as real old.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 14, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ 14/3/2012 said:


> Every element has to be absolutely right - the micing, the recording space, the board, the gear, the tape machine.



The PLAYERS. I feel like a broken record... :D


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## noiseboyuk (Mar 14, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Mar 14 said:


> noiseboyuk @ 14/3/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Every element has to be absolutely right - the micing, the recording space, the board, the gear, the tape machine.
> ...



Oh, THEM! Quite right of course - a silly omission from my list.


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## re-peat (Mar 14, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Mar 14 said:


> (...) but I strongly doubt that emulating what they did then will produce this sound. (...)


I doubt it too. Well, more than doubt, in fact. I'm completely convinced that you can emulate all you want, with a dozen UAD2 Quad's if necessary, and you'll still end up nowhere near this sound. People often have too much faith in the capabilites of plug-ins, it seems to me.

Brian Wilson had a go at it, a few years back, when he reconstructed his magnum opus 'Smile', using plenty of UAD-processing and other pseudo-vintage equipment, and the results sounded, well, ... pretty dreadful: as fake and unauthentic as could be. Very poor sound. That record ("Brian Wilson presents Smile") sounds also completely dated already if you listen to it today, much more than the original does in fact. It has absolutely none of the timeless sonic richness that the original 'Smile'-recordings (which were released last year) still have.

The simple truth is: you cannot recreate these 50's/60's/70's sounds if you don't do exactly what was done when those sounds were created originally: capturing great players onto tape via authentic analogue equipment, and preferably in a good-sounding room and under the supervision of an engineer/producer who knows what he or she is supposed to be doing. Anything else is a complete self-delusional waste of time.

Try it (I have): load up Trillian's or Scarbee's Fender-bass, or a vintage-sounding acoustic drumkit from Toontrack, BFD or AddictiveDrums, instantiate a bunch of pseudo-vintage or pseudo-retro plugins, and throw in a decent tape simulator as well, ... in fact, do _anything_ you can to make it sound as retro as possible, and listen to the results. Not in a million years is it going to sound like the instruments in 'Bullit'. And that's just the bass. Or the drums. Or whatever. 
Because the *real* beauty of these recordings appears in how all these instruments sit absolutely perfectly and effortlessly together and yet each sound has plenty of space around it. There's lots of 'air' and 'openness' but without things sounding harsh or unpleasantly bright, there's tons of warmth and creamy roundness but without things sounding booming or heavy, there's plenty of punch but without aggression, and each instrument has very musical (not natural, but musical) sounding dynamics ...

Plug-ins still have a loooong way to go before that magic will ever be generated inside a DAW.

_


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## germancomponist (Mar 14, 2012)

re-peat @ Wed Mar 14 said:


> The simple truth is: you cannot recreate these 50's/60's/70's sounds if you don't do exactly what was done when those sounds were created originally: capturing great players onto tape via authentic analogue equipment, and preferably in a good-sounding room and under the supervision of an engineer/producer who knows what he or she is supposed to be doing. Anything else is a complete self-delusional waste of time.
> ....
> Plug-ins still have a loooong way to go before that magic will ever be generated inside a DAW.
> 
> _



+1

For example only think about that TelCom C4 what was used as a noice reduction tool, for the tape machines, but which works well above 0 dB as a compressor. So it also did "sound", warm sound.


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## houser (Apr 9, 2012)

Waywyn @ Wed Mar 14 said:


> It sounds much better to you, because this is how you experienced music when you grew up. To me it is the same. There was always Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young,...



New here, missed this place for some reason over the years. 
Over 50 so entitled to say something I guess and the CSNY reference was my trigger as I grew up with that sound too 

Gotta second what I read as a cognitive angle on music and listening.
You form concepts of what you like, and it sticks. 
The "Déjà Vu" album still puts tingles down my spine..sounds absolutely great to me and not all music from that time does I might add. 
The balance of various substances needs to be about right  
One truism: Some great gear on some great players is not something easily emulated...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 9, 2012)

A lot of great comments in this thread.

What Gunther says is exactly it: the big difference is that the sound is caught in the act. 

I love production as much as everyone else, but anyone who worked on anything in the heyday knows that the engineer often did very little on TV or film sessions - the music was written to work live. It had to - there wasn't time to mix later. Maybe there would be a note for the engineer on the score that a solo was coming, but a lot of it was set and forget.



> drums played soft but crancked on tape and board



That's a big thing too. I love, for example, the incredibly hard-slamming drum/bass on the Ting Tings "Shut Up and Let Me Go," but I also miss drums with dynamics. E.T. Thorngren, the guy who did the drum sound on Robert Palmer's "Addicted to Love" (probably the first "caricature" drum record - and that's his word for the sound he was going for), is a friend of mine, and he agreed with me when I said that.

Little Mikey Greene also mentioned the ride cymbal, and that's a big part of the sound too - and in a way it's the same kind of glue as the record noise. The reason is that one element with clear highs can make the whole thing sound open and airy. It almost doesn't matter what it is - a ride cymbal, a triangle, tape hiss...

***
The other thing that always strikes me when I listen to older recordings is how much our ears have changed. Who would release a cue with the kick and bass not 100% married like that today?

(A friend of mine gave my turntable a thorough going over a couple of weeks ago, and I've really been enjoying listening to old albums since then.)


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## Jimbo 88 (Apr 9, 2012)

Hey It is really easy to get that sound....

You need to start with a really good composer/arranger. Then hire some of the best musicians in the world. You book a really well designed audio room that comes with an award winning audio mixer who has access to some really cool mics.

After all that you might get a great recording after a couple of tries.

Seriously, If I was looking to recreate a sound like that, I think top of the line ribbon mics would be a starting point. Ribbon mics have seem to be the magic ingrediant for me lately.


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## reid (Apr 10, 2012)

Couple of years ago I had a gig doing a pastiche of Bullit for a product promo - no real budget to speak of, so the majority of it was created with samples. I barely scratched the surface of sounding like the real thing, but along the way had to deal with many of the points raised in the thread. Off the top of my head, some of the conclusions I came to were....

- nothing beats skilled live players all doing their thing in the same room at the same time. _Nothing._ 0oD 

- the UAD Studer tape and EMT 140 sims are things of beauty.

- the amount of of high and low roll off on most instruments is pretty substantial, to be in the ballpark for 'that' sound.

- much of the sound comes from the skill of the arranger and not the engineer (boy, did I learn that one the hard way).

- a significant part of the energy of the soundtrack comes from the push and pull of the speed of the players. I had to create tempo maps of two of the original cues, as the editor had cut very precisely to them - the amount of variation in speed is shocking to a mind raised on clicktracks and drum machines! But it doesn't sound 'off' in context, and for me that was a real lesson in what's possible when you abandon proscribed convention and let the action on screen dictate momentum.

The whole promo ended up being unused for various reasons, but for my sins.....

http://vimeo.com/33935065

(main Bullit sections start around 1m 10s and 2m 25s, but if you've time then watch the whole thing, and marvel at the kind of marketing guy who'll spend _that_ much on a location shoot and then bin the result :mrgreen: )


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## germancomponist (Apr 10, 2012)

reid @ Tue Apr 10 said:


> The whole promo ended up being unused for various reasons, but for my sins.....
> 
> http://vimeo.com/33935065
> 
> (main Bullit sections start around 1m 10s and 2m 25s, but if you've time then watch the whole thing, and marvel at the kind of marketing guy who'll spend _that_ much on a location shoot and then bin the result :mrgreen: )



I like this!!!


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## reid (Apr 11, 2012)

Thank you :mrgreen:


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