# Sample library piracy - solutions



## noiseboyuk (Nov 17, 2012)

A spin off of Nine Volt Audio's thread, describing their sad experiences of the piracy of their libraries. It occurred to me that it is more productive to debate what we as a community can actually do about this problem, rather than just endlessly bemoaning the state of young people today / arguing about how to calculate the loss involved (ie is every illegal download a lost sale). Piracy is clearly hugely financially detrimental to developers, regardless of these debates, and that's a given in this thread. Please debate those issues elsewhere - this should be a thread to search for practical, workable solutions. I'm sure many of us here would like to help in some way, if it would genuinely make a difference.

In the 9VA thread, 4 different ideas were proposed. There may well be more, but it's a start. Here's a brief summary:

*1. A group response - form a large ad hoc team that would contact every website and get them to take down all specific torrents related to our business. 

2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five* (both of which rely on iLok which afaik has never been cracked)

*3. An alternate group response - form a small skilled and possibly paid team to flood the net with fake downloads and spread disinformation 

4. Get directly involved in public education *

*5. Watermarked samples* (nb this one added after original OP, and note - ineffective if original sample library was bought fraudulently).

So do you think any of these can work? Which one(s)? Please bear in mind that there is no magic bullet here, or else it would have been fixed by now. In the case of (1) it will be a tireless, never ending battle to keep on top. With (2) it means wider embracing a CP method that some dislike, which might impact sales. With (3) it will involve money, and there's no guarantee of success. With (4), it's clearly a very broad area.

So, as Mrs Merton used to say here on her UK chat show - "let's have a mass debate".


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

One problem as I see it, Guy-those who are probably the most expert in these matters don't like to talk too much about their practices and attempted solutions for both legal and practical reasons. It's sort of hard to move forward without that kind of expertise.


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## noizy (Nov 18, 2012)

Hey guys,

What about (individual) watermarking the samples? I think the spitfire guys are doing that?

Cheers,
Noizy


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## Taisto (Nov 18, 2012)

From the bottom of my heart I hope that developers do not follow the notion number 2.
In that case I will be satisfied with what I have already and quit this endless buying of new stuff.

As a side note, Sample Modeling is one company that constantly excels in everything they do in my opinion.
They have their own player and it works (unlike some others) and they also don't rally about.
They don't even have to advertise their stuff really. They are just succesful and because of that they get customers I think.

IMO you can go ahead and spread disinformation or trash over the internet but I think the most important thing is that the legit buying customer is not played a fool. Without him/her there wouldn't be any business to begin with.

Note: I guess I didn't really have an idea to contribute here, sorry. So perhaps a good idea in my opinion is a custom sample player that doesn't suck.
Kontakt is kind of a super market of samples and I wouldn't want to adopt another modular sampler thing. These always have their own bugs and Kontakt is a mature platform nowdays.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 18, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> One problem as I see it, Guy-those who are probably the most expert in these matters don't like to talk too much about their practices and attempted solutions for both legal and practical reasons. It's sort of hard to move forward without that kind of expertise.



Well, I guess this was originally inspired by Ned's post about all of us doing something to help, in a sense regardless of what developers are already doing (and of course developers are a diverse bunch, already taking several different approaches). It may be a "damn fool idealistic crusade", in which case c'est la vie. So far I haven't heard anything concrete and useful that any of us can do beyond not illegally downloading. Is there anything else?

I appreciate option 2 would be out of our hands, but if a high percentage of people here said "yes, I'd switch to iLok", then it might well encourage developers to go down that road.

I'll add watermarking to the list and edit the OP.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

I can't say I have anything original to suggest. Of course, I'd like my sample ownership to be uncomplicated. Spectrasonics has probably been the model of ease for me CP-wise, but I have iLok and a Steinberg key too- whatever protects developers, I'm for.


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## danielcartisano (Nov 18, 2012)

Has anyone tried contacting Native Instruments about this?

I don't mind using an iLok or Steinberg key (Have both already).

Maybe Native Instruments and iLok can form an agreement of some sort that would require all samples within Kontakt to be licensed to an iLok?

I personally don't want to change to another sampler and neither do a lot of us on here... If iLok is required by Kontakt and everything in it, that would be perfect.

I don't really know what else to suggest. I just feel sorry for the developers and would do anything to help other than switch samplers. I've had bad experiences with PLAY (on mac) and because of it I have $1000 worth of samples sitting there doing nothing.


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## Daryl (Nov 18, 2012)

Guy, there is no totally secure system. iLok was cracked, which is why there was a delay with iLok 2. I think that making a dongle system more secure is possible, but the more complicated the call-backs, the slower the program is likely to run. The question for me is how much time and inconvenience is spent on prevention and how much on detection.

Kontakt is a particular problem, I think. To me if a developer pays NI for "protection" I would have thought that it is NI's job to ensure this. However, from what I hear they just wash their hands of it if their C/P is broken. I would have thought that in return for accepting the fee, they should employ someone specifically to chase up all protected products and try to get links taken down. Sure, they will always be chasing, but they have taken the money to offer security, so it's the least they should do. After all, the more people who choose not to use their C/P, the more money they don't get. Maybe that's what they want. Not to have to be responsible at all.

I'm not sure that any developer needs us to report Website links to them. All they have to do is type their product into a search engine and they can find out all that information themselves.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 18, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> I can't say I have anything original to suggest. Of course, I'd like my sample ownership to be uncomplicated. Spectrasonics has probably been the model of ease for me CP-wise, but I have iLok and a Steinberg key too- whatever protects developers, I'm for.



+1. Larry.


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## Chriss Ons (Nov 18, 2012)

You can come up with creative solutions all you want but the fact remains that anyone can setup up a server in a datacenter and do pretty much whatever they want - at least for a while - and do a LOT of irrepairable damage that way.
Internet governance is a global issue but certain aspects of it, like dealing with illegal content, are really not being treated as such (yet) - at least not in an adequate manner. 
Oddly enough, you have centralized organizations like W3C and ICANN who pretty much determine what the web looks like and how it works, technically, but when it comes to measures against piracy, what is sorely lacking is a similar institute that has the authority to force ISP to follow standard DMCA policy and/or accepted takedown procedures. 
In the same way that your newly purchased domain name and dns settings are replicated over the entire www in a matter of hours - which is quite an astonishing feat if you think about it - it should also be possible for an independent, neutral and global organization to block links to pirated software or take out entire domains which are set up for that purpose - and make search engines comply. And I wouldn't count on companies like Google to help you with this - they have little or nothing to gain from it.


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## wst3 (Nov 18, 2012)

I did have this conversation with some folks at NI several years ago. I pointed out to them that one of the factors that allowed them to gain marketshare from GS was the fact that Tascam blatantly disregarded copy protection for libraries, which led to library developers ceasing to develop new libraries, which (in concert with platform instability and apparent disinterest in updates) led to the demise of GS.

At that time NI seemed to be genuinely interested in developing some form of copy protection that would be (a) unobtrusive, and (b) effective, in that order.

Service Center seems to provide (a), but not so much (b). I think this suggests that the listen to their customers.

Perhaps, a la the original suggestion, if we were to make an effort, en mass, to let NI know that we value the success of current and future developers they'd consider it.

My conversation with them was a while ago now, and the people that I knew may no longer be there, but I will try to contact them and pass along the results.


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## karmadharma (Nov 18, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Please debate those issues elsewhere - this should be a thread to search for practical, workable solutions. I'm sure many of us here would like to help in some way, if it would genuinely make a difference.



putting on my long-time software developer hat I can tell you there is no practical/workable technical solution: if a computer can read/execute a program, given enough effort any sort of copy protection scheme can be worked around. You can program defensively as much as you want, create convoluted security schemes, but if even something like, say, a game console is breached (where the hardware is fully under control of the manufacturer, there is crypto everywhere etc.) there isn't much you can do on an open platform like a PC.

From my perspective the easiest/best solutions is non-technical: making customers feel like valued customers instead of possible pirates (i.e. with onerous copy protection schemes), and making pirates feel like they are missing out by not being customers (i.e. with non-software benefits, like great tech support, registration-walled forums, registration-walled registration-specific library patches, etc.)

In terms of the ideas, from my perspective as you said yourself none of these are a magic bullet/fix:



noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> *1. A group response - form a large ad hoc team that would contact every website and get them to take down all specific torrents related to our business. *


*

whack-a-mole, there will always be new websites, not to mention that piracy existed before the internet where there were no websites...



noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:



2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five

Click to expand...

*


noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> (both of which rely on iLok which afaik has never been cracked)



goes back to making a good customer experience: if your paying customers are happy/productive with kontakt, do you really think it's good business to force them to switch?



noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> *3. An alternate group response - form a small skilled and possibly paid team to flood the net with fake downloads and spread disinformation *


*

whack-a-mole again, people are problem-solvers, if somebody wants to actively spend time/effort pirating something, they will try to find a way around whichever misinformation you will spread...



noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:



4. Get directly involved in public education

Click to expand...


that is always good, but if it was that easy to do nobody would steal in real life either, there's plenty of education there and actual physical penalties (i.e. jail) but yet people still steal/rob/...



noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:



5. Watermarked samples (nb this one added after original OP, and note - ineffective if original sample library was bought fraudulently).

Click to expand...


I don't think watermarked samples solve anything: if at all they cause stress to your legitimate customers who will worry about their computers being hacked and the samples being stolen and their name be all over the place as the pirate (even if they weren't). What purpose does watermarking serve? If somebody purchases your samples fraudulently they won't care, and if somebody paid you money for your samples they are a customer, and so you should treat them well so you get good word of mouth etc.

As you said, there is no silver bullet so there is no easy solution, in my opinion the best approach is education: education of users about why being a paying customer is better, education of sample producers about how it's better business sense to focus on your paying customers instead of focusing on the pirates.*


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## Sean Beeson (Nov 18, 2012)

Not that I am a fan of this, but one thing that could help is actually being able to pursue the pirates. As it stands now, even if we could find out who and where stuff was being pirated/uploaded I feel there isn't much that we can do that would be fruitful. I could go out and pirate a ton of stuff this afternoon with no fear of ever being caught. There is little to no deterrence on that front, especially if you live outside of this country.


Not that it would be practical, or reasonable, or even desirable, but if pirates knew they could more easily be caught and/or sued I think it could deter some of them. they will always be a step ahead though. It also doesn't stop piracy, would just potentially stop more future pirates from even starting to download.

Also, not really wanting to get into this whole suing thing. And I would prefer that we are able to keep the internet open, free, and not constantly being in fear of being tracked, sued, hunted down, ect.


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 18, 2012)

For most people their morality is entirely dependent on what they can get away with. There are rarely any consequences of downloading pirated software to the pirate.

So, what's to stop them? Beyond wishful thinking and hoping, what is actually going to stop them?

I fear that the level of resources necessary to accurately pursue software and sample library piracy just aren't there. Look at the film industry. Pretty large resources and look how difficult it has been for them to do it. 

It's a by-product of the internet age. The internet without piracy, is like religion without fundamentalism - it may not be the most desirable aspect of it, but it's woven into its very nature.

I know that's a negative outlook but, essentially you're hoping for dicks not to be dicks.


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## passenger57 (Nov 18, 2012)

> I don't think watermarked samples solve anything: if at all they cause stress to your legitimate customers who will worry about their computers being hacked and the samples being stolen and their name be all over the place as the pirate (even if they weren't). What purpose does watermarking serve? If somebody purchases your samples fraudulently they won't care, and if somebody paid you money for your samples they are a customer, and so you should treat them well so you get good word of mouth etc.


There is alot of truth to this. All watermarking does is make me constantly paranoid someone is going to steal my sample drive. The bad guys don't care and will always find a way to get away with it. Suppose my drive is stolen one day and then a developer finds the watermarked samples with my info on it on a pirate website somewhere. Do I get sued or fined when I didn't do anything wrong? Why should I be treated like a crimminal when I'm the one of the good guys supporting the sample companies. This brings me back to my question about encrypting a sample drive that I can never get an straight tested definitive answer for from developers. :roll:
I'd also like to note that all my composer friends BUY the libraries. I don't know anyone that uses pirated libraries. If anyone does, it's probably just some idiot in their parents basement somewhere. Otherwise, only a total fool would use a pirated library on a professional paying project.


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## playz123 (Nov 18, 2012)

Influence others whenever you can. If you know that someone is stealing and thinks it's okay, without preaching, let them know you think it is wrong and you won't condone it. Let kids know that if their parents are stealing, that's wrong too...period. Be a positive influence. We all know too that if we admire someone, we can be influenced by their actions and their thoughts from time to time. Even if you only get through to one person, it's a start. This concept that one person can't make a difference is incorrect.

Take a stand. I've had people come to my studio with cracked software that they want to use, and they've discovered quickly that they've come to the wrong place. I've known others who knew they were wrong who eventually realized it, and stopped stealing and started buying. So it can and does happen. I don't feel legislation or internet police are completely effective, but I do love to see pirates get caught and prosecuted and I do like to see developers win in court.
None of this is new, of course, but just some thoughts on tackling piracy. Start at the beginning, with yourself...as you are doing...then do your best to help others see the light when you can. "Teach your children well."


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## lee (Nov 18, 2012)

playz123 @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> Influence others whenever you can. If you know that someone is stealing and thinks it's okay, without preaching, let them know you think it is wrong and you won't condone it. Let kids know that if their parents are stealing, that's wrong too...period. Be a positive influence. We all know too that if we admire someone, we can be influenced by their actions and their thoughts from time to time. Even if you only get through to one person, it's a start. This concept that one person can't make a difference is incorrect.
> 
> Take a stand. I've had people come to my studio with cracked software that they want to use, and they've discovered quickly that they've come to the wrong place. I've known others who knew they were wrong who eventually realized it, and stopped stealing and started buying. So it can and does happen. I don't feel legislation or internet police are completely effective, but I do love to see pirates get caught and prosecuted and I do like to see developers win in court.
> None of this is new, of course, but just some thoughts on tackling piracy. Start at the beginning, with yourself...as you are doing...then do your best to help others see the light when you can. "Teach your children well."



+1


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

I have a small idea. How about a petition to N.I.? Would anyone be willing to sign one that asks them to work diligently to maek their copy protection mor robust? 

Might it be possible to write and sign on officially from V.I.C.? That would be a matter for Frederick, i would think, but personally, I woud sign such a petition.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 18, 2012)

The topic of better CP was brought up to NI in pretty emphatic terms by us developers about a year ago. But NI was very clear that there would be no iLoks in Kontakt's future or any other special efforts to combat piracy. Their thinking is that we should focus on making great libraries and pricing them right. Piracy is inevitable (in their eyes) and merely a cost of doing business.

That might sound cold (and we were pretty mad,) but bear in mind that we boutique developers are a tiny, tiny piece of the Native Instruments empire. For them to incorporate iLok (or some other) capabilities would amount to a pound of cure to fix an ounce of trouble. NI's business model of _Make lots and lots of stuff and sell it cheap"_ is doing amazingly well, whether we boutique developers are on board or not. I'm probably not allowed to share the numbers they showed me, but the sales for any one of those $99 titles they sell are absolutely massive compared to even the biggest developers who frequent this forum. (Forget hacking Kontakt, I want someone to hack into their email list for me! :mrgreen: )

Interestingly, I got an email just a few minutes ago from someone asking if Realivox would work on Mach 5. Granted, that's the first time I've been asked that, but I do think the Mach 5 platform is a viable alternative. Not for Realivox, because there's no way I'm going to redo everything for the sake of better security. But if I were starting from scratch, I'd consider it. And FWIW . . . I don't think NI would even notice . . .


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 18, 2012)

I'm starting to understand why it's so hard to buy Kontakt 5 now -who cares? I asked on the NI forum and got as many replies as you can count on no hands. Now how's that multi-coloured Maschine coming along?

Mach5, people...


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 18, 2012)

I don't really agree that NI's strategy is only cheap stuff. Frankly, I support them fully and I think they are doing everything right from a business perspective. Komplete is $500-1000. Maschine is $669. Kontakt is $119-399. Reaktor is $139-399. Many of their sound libraries are in the $150-300 range, etc.

You only have to look at the computer game industry to see that intrusive copy protection methods are NOT the answer. Most consumers simply don't want to deal with them. Companies far, far bigger than Native Instruments have been fighting this war and losing for a long time. The most successful of them all would probably be Valve, who has copy protection most akin to NI's Service Center, and who focuses on great pricing, and a great platform for delivery + updates. Again... like Service Center.

The pro market for sample libraries is relatively miniscule when compared with the hobbyist market. No, I don't mean that we should make dumbed-down products or ignore the needs of pros - quite the opposite. MANY hobbyists aspire to be pros, or at least make professional-grade music, so by making a top-tier sample library, synth or effect, you are appealing to everyone. However from a pricing and accessibility standpoint, whereas professionals are more tolerant (I have an iLok myself), hobbyists are not. Since hobbyists tend to make up a large portion of the market, it stands to reason that imposing something like a dongle (which, ~8 years on KVRAudio tells me, a LOT of people hate) is not good business and ends up hurting both markets.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 18, 2012)

zircon_st @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> You only have to look at the computer game industry to see that intrusive copy protection methods are NOT the answer.


Why look at the computer gaming industry? It shares little with specialized music libraries like those that are typically discussed here.

Computer game sales can be in the millions of copies, but a boutique library (>$300) is considered hugely successful if it sells a thousand copies. Completely different markets. Some kid in his underwear wanting a shoot-em-up game isn't going to put up with CP nonsense, but a composer who needs that certain sound for his gig is going to be a little more tolerant.

Why not compare apples to apples and look at East West? As far as I know, none of their PLAY titles are cracked, and my understanding is that they're selling really well. I'd happily take that situation.


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## 667 (Nov 18, 2012)

I think adding password-protection to iLok would help a lot. Every dev encrypts thier library with iLok, and then when a user enters their iLok password it activates on that PC. If somone takes your iLok they cannot access the licenses without the password. If they get both your iLok and your computer, a properly secured (encrypted) PC will also prevent access to those "already authorized" samples since they can't get access to the PC if you've secured your OS / FS via encryption.

This solves the problem of Vienna, Steinberg, et al refusing to give you a new license should one get lost/stolen, which as the value on my dongles creeps up around $5k of sample libraries and software becomes a concern for me.

(My issue with this is that the license file on the dongle is *not* your license to use the software-- it's part of their copy protection scheme. But if you've paid for the software then you have a license even after losing the dongle and-- in my opinion-- they have an obligation to make you whole)


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 18, 2012)

Interesting idea, 667.



Daryl @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> iLok was cracked, which is why there was a delay with iLok 2.



I just put EWQL into a torrent site. The only Play library I saw there was their small free orchestra they released for 12 minutes a few years ago. Everything else is NI as far as I can see (and goes back a long way - some really old names show up). If it was cracked, I would have expected to see torrents of the EW stuff everywhere? It raises other questions of why they're stuff hasn't been pirated DESPITE being, apparently, cracked (don't suppose there's a reliable link somewhere for news on the cracked iLok?)

I think NI petitions will fall on deaf ears and Mike eloquently and sadly explained. I'd love to know what precentage of professional users and are seriously in our business do NOT already own an iLok?

People keep saying "nothing is perfect" / "everything gets cracked" and sure ultimately I agree. But iLok is holding up INCREDIBLY well, it seems. Every year that passes equates to a helluva lot of sales that have been won by the real industry.

Thus far, option C is sounding best to me, though I think a native free Mach Five player would help. They should take one leaf out of NI's book - release a free player with a free core library. Everyone would get it, and if it is a good as folks say then it might well get people over the psychological hurdle of buying into iLok. It really wouldn't take long if desirable libraries were released that were Mach Five only before people went for them. Content is king, and all that...


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## passenger57 (Nov 18, 2012)

When I travel I only take my NI activated libraries on my laptop, I never want to risk losing or breaking a dongle and so I leave the EW and Vienna libraries at home. I tend to stay away from libraries with dongles whenever possible. It's just too much of a hassle and inconveniencing the honest customer. I get why they do it but its really useless because anyone wanting to use a stolen copy will just download a cracked version anyway.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 18, 2012)

passenger57 @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> When I travel I only take my NI activated libraries on my laptop, I never want to risk losing or breaking a dongle and so I leave the EW and Vienna libraries at home. I tend to stay away from libraries with dongles whenever possible. It's just too much of a hassle and inconveniencing the honest customer. I get why they do it but its really useless because anyone wanting to use a stolen copy will just download a cracked version anyway.



First half - completely agree actually, it's by far the biggest downside to using iLok. 2nd half makes no sense to me - they can't download cracked iLok libraries because there aren't any?


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## NYC Composer (Nov 18, 2012)

667 @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> (My issue with this is that the license file on the dongle is *not* your license to use the software-- it's part of their copy protection scheme. But if you've paid for the software then you have a license even after losing the dongle and-- in my opinion-- they have an obligation to make you whole)



I absolutely, totally agree with this. I could see buying another dongle, but if there was any hassle as to installations, I'd be plenty P'O'd at the company in question.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 18, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> zircon_st @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > You only have to look at the computer game industry to see that intrusive copy protection methods are NOT the answer.
> ...



There are quite a few similarities actually. In fact, you could broaden it to include other software as well. But first let's get the context. I've read that something like 25-33% of Americans have home studios of some kind. My own observations as a sample developer and member of communities like this, KVRaudio, Gearslutz, and many others have shown me that the number of hobbyists is absolutely immense. I've conducted extensive demographic surveys through thousands of ISW sales to help with the raw data supporting that conclusion. I would ballpark a number at something like 10 hobbyist users making little to no money from music for every pro that is doing it even part time... and that would be extremely conservative.

The point is, the music gear industry is not niche. Sure, you can make a very niche library, just like you can make a very niche game. But that is actually beside the point that I'm making. My point is that many multi-billion dollar game developers wailed about piracy and instituted ever-harsher DRM schemes on their customers. There were many proclamations that PC gaming as a whole would die, because consoles (like Xbox 360 + PS3) are uncrackable. Then Valve showed up, offering a library of amazing games with no intrusive DRM, easy downloading, and easy updating. Suddenly, they're making ludicrous amounts of money.

Native Instruments is very much doing the same kind of thing as Valve. They are producing excellent products with excellent value with non-intrusive authorization and easy updating. As a result, they are hugely profitable and successful. Do people pirate NI products? Yes. Are they extremely successful anyway? Yes. Tons of people pirated our Shreddage library, which didn't even use Kontakt player (though Shreddage 2 will - for accessibility reasons). However, because we offer it at a competitive price, with easy accessibility and great customer service, it is very successful.

If you are making a very niche product in design or pricing, then your market is going to be inherently limited, because it will be of less interest to the majority of possible customers. If by price and design you are excluding many hobbyists anyway, then adding something like an iLok is not going to be as big of a deal. But overall, I believe the gains in security are offset by the losses in customers that are uninterested in inconvenient copy protection. Companies like NI, Spectrasonics, Valve (etc) have all shown that you can sell amazing products at a wide range of prices with no dongles/DRM and be at the top of your industry.

Don't get me wrong - pooling community efforts for education, link takedowns, and other such activities are fine. But as a developer, I believe my resources are best spent developing great products, and not burdening potential customers with technology like iLok.


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## passenger57 (Nov 18, 2012)

> 2nd half makes no sense to me - they can't download cracked iLok libraries because there aren't any?


Well since it's software, I just assumed there were cracked like everything else. If not, then thats good news for the developers of those products. 
I heard about waves going after people for cracked iLok based software even though they changed their approach, check it out:
http://logicblog.info/logic-pro-blog/2012/03/19/waves-goes-64-bit-no-ilok-needed.html (http://logicblog.info/logic-pro-blog/20 ... eeded.html)

64-bit support
No iLok required
Easy activation to computer or USB flash drive
Move and manage your licenses via USB flash drive or License Cloud
One-click license recovery for lost or damaged devices
New plugins added to premium bundles


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## StevenOBrien (Nov 19, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> *2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five* (both of which rely on iLok which afaik has never been cracked)



Please, NO. Don't punish your customers.

As for piracy, it would be interesting to see some numbers from developers. Is there a significant drop in sales after the first pirated copy is released?

I'm also interested to know how pricing affects things. Are lower priced libraries less likely candidates for piracy? Is there a bigger relative loss from selling an expensive library that gets pirated or a cheaper library that gets pirated?



Mike Greene @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Why not compare apples to apples and look at East West? As far as I know, none of their PLAY titles are cracked, and my understanding is that they're selling really well. I'd happily take that situation.


Using PLAY has been an absolutely and consistently horrible experience for me, and I will never buy another PLAY product as a result. That can't be good for EW, surely? I'm counting down the days until a string library is released that matches the price and quality of Hollywood Strings so I can get rid of PLAY from my setup.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 19, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> The topic of better CP was brought up to NI in pretty emphatic terms by us developers about a year ago. But NI was very clear that there would be no iLoks in Kontakt's future or any other special efforts to combat piracy. Their thinking is that we should focus on making great libraries and pricing them right. Piracy is inevitable (in their eyes) and merely a cost of doing business.
> 
> That might sound cold (and we were pretty mad,) but bear in mind that we boutique developers are a tiny, tiny piece of the Native Instruments empire. For them to incorporate iLok (or some other) capabilities would amount to a pound of cure to fix an ounce of trouble. NI's business model of _Make lots and lots of stuff and sell it cheap"_ is doing amazingly well, whether we boutique developers are on board or not. I'm probably not allowed to share the numbers they showed me, but the sales for any one of those $99 titles they sell are absolutely massive compared to even the biggest developers who frequent this forum. (Forget hacking Kontakt, I want someone to hack into their email list for me! :mrgreen: )
> 
> Interestingly, I got an email just a few minutes ago from someone asking if Realivox would work on Mach 5. Granted, that's the first time I've been asked that, but I do think the Mach 5 platform is a viable alternative. Not for Realivox, because there's no way I'm going to redo everything for the sake of better security. But if I were starting from scratch, I'd consider it. And FWIW . . . I don't think NI would even notice . . .



Hi Mike

Is it not possible to make your samples iLok protected. I mentioned this in the other thread before it got sidetracked. I got East West Orchestra for Structure in Protools years ago. It required a completely separate and independent Ilok asset of its own.
It was not tied in any way to Protools or Structure's iLok auth AFAIK. If I am correct, this would be a way to protect your libraries completely outside of the host software, which would ultimately be the best solution.

Denis Woods


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## Oguz Sehiralti (Nov 19, 2012)

zircon_st @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> [Tons of people pirated our Shreddage library, which didn't even use Kontakt player (though Shreddage 2 will - for accessibility reasons). However, because we offer it at a competitive price, with easy accessibility and great customer service, it is very successful.
> 
> If you are making a very niche product in design or pricing, then your market is going to be inherently limited, because it will be of less interest to the majority of possible customers. If by price and design you are excluding many hobbyists anyway, then adding something like an iLok is not going to be as big of a deal. But overall, I believe the gains in security are offset by the losses in customers that are uninterested in inconvenient copy protection. Companies like NI, Spectrasonics, Valve (etc) have all shown that you can sell amazing products at a wide range of prices with no dongles/DRM and be at the top of your industry.



Wow. I'm certainly glad to hear these from a developer.

Now, just my 2 cents if it means anything:

I believe the figth against piracy have been working backwards, and most other industries realised this but the professional software industry is still not where it should be to solve this problem. Of course, piracy is stealing, it should be eliminated etc., but it should not be done so at the expense of the paying customer. I remember, in a recording session, our ilok just broke down. We had to wait hours for a replacement to come, and it took days to get everything running again. Why so much hassle? Why punish the paying customers?

I think the software developers should crate offers that are irresistable and they should aim to include hobbyists as well (which might, quite possibly, become professional customers in the future). And the way to do that, I think, is not putting more and more security and raising the prices with only the professionals in mind that make thousands of dollars using their software. In other words, it should be so that the potential customers should not even think about the question "why would I pay for this?".


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## woodsdenis (Nov 19, 2012)

zircon_st @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Mike Greene @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > zircon_st @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> ...


Surely the point is here is very simple, if you as a developer feels that any CP,iLok or otherwise would affect your business, for the the very reasons you have stated then fine, dont use any. I have some of your products and thats fine too. You have built a business model around the $100 ish dollar price range and you make excellent products.
However there obviously many devs who feel that CP or Ilok is very necessary. I have an iLok and I don't care what kind of CP there is. Avid, Spectrasonics, Waves,NI all have their own systems. TBH sometimes I wish they were all iLok so as to unify the system

I do this for a living and the cost of an iLok and more importantly down time protection really isn't an issue. I think you have to realize that Shreddage may appeal to the hobbyist and the pro alike but LASS etc would not be a hobbyists first choice.

The point about this thread is to find a solution for the devs who WANT to protect their work and not to argue the case for or against CP or iLok or whatever.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 19, 2012)

Engine does not yet have scripting so it is currently a step back. The products I painstakingly converted over from Kontakt to Engine placed far too much burden on the composer without scripting. The end result was scraped releases. One needs to sample to its strengths and not try to convert something that was designed for scripts. I have a friend who has done very well with the format by doing just that. Hi ya, Tari! By the way, I thought the mere consideration of switching to Engine provoked a week-long and non related bash? lol

Watermarking is merely a deterrent and is not a fail safe. Once uploaded, the damage is already done. The cost to prosecute is extreme. I applaud the group effort to shutdown via DMCA but I warn you, as you spend the day shutting down 100 links, 250 more will appear within the hour. The truth of the matter is, as a group, your request will be ignored. You must be the copyright holder in order to see a success in take downs.

When every single product produced has been uploaded, yes it does cut deep into profits. Only a fool would believe or promote otherwise. That is not to say you cannot still make a buck but anyone that would turn a blind eye or say its all no big deal is a part of the problem. Just so you are aware, piracy is not only the little punk that would, "never buy it anyway". Their are members only groups that charge a fee to enter and download only the best data. There are countless websites selling our products for a few bucks printed on knockoff DVDs, etc. These scumbags are feeding their families on our work. 

Native Instruments needs to go the way of the dongle and make 3rd party pricing obtainable. Simple as that! In any case, *I think it is wonderful to see illegitimate composers taking a stand!*

Happy Holidays VI


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 19, 2012)

Illegitimate composers? Please explain.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 19, 2012)

Ned - I think he has an extra il in there by accident...


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## Daryl (Nov 19, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Illegitimate composers? Please explain.


The ones who behave like b*st*rds?

D


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## Leosc (Nov 19, 2012)

StevenOBrien @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Don't punish your customers.
> 
> As for piracy, it would be interesting to see some numbers from developers. Is there a significant drop in sales after the first pirated copy is released?



This. It's sad to see so many rather uneducated (not meant as an insult) opinions in this thread. karmadharma has already explained why the proposed measurements are sure to fail - and as a computer scientist myself (and all other actual developers I know), the lesson on successful business has always been: Make a good product at a fair price and offer easy payment options. Such products sell without the need for excessive copy protection.


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## passenger57 (Nov 19, 2012)

After reading all this it seems like some sort of non hardware license cloud based authentication would be the best bet. That way composers could travel with their libraries without worry of theft or iLok / elicenser damage or loss. 
If your computer/hard drive is stolen or damaged, just login and deactivate it from the cloud just like a cell phone account. I think waves is onto the best modern solution.
At the moment, if my gear is compromised, stolen or damaged and I was on a deadline (which I always am) I would start with trying to reinstall my NI libraries from my backup drive so I could get back to work. The iLock / elisensor libraries would probably take weeks to get back and even then there is no guarantee.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 19, 2012)

Acall @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> the lesson on successful business has always been: Make a good product at a fair price and offer easy payment options. Such products sell without the need for excessive copy protection.



Leaders of this industry such as Avid and East West for example, invest in copy protection for a very basic reason. Your suggestion of "good product at a fair price" is 101 in all aspects of business. Piracy does not change or encourage this. Remember that it is difficult (not impossible because there are good people out there too) to SELL a tank of gas, no matter your price point and no matter how friendly your staff is, when the gas station down the street is pumping it for FREE. It is just that simple. 

ps. I meant to type “legitimate” of course. o[])


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2012)

Upload virus infected libraries on the sharing sites. This is not gentle, sure, but are the downloaders friendly?

If this is too hard......, then upload libraries on the sharing sites with many built in mistakes, missing samples all the time e.t.c. ... . o/~

We have to achieve it, that no one has more pleasurable to download something on sharing sites! o=<


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 19, 2012)

germancomponist @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Upload virus infected libraries on the sharing sites. This is not gentle, sure, but are the downloaders friendly?
> 
> If this is too hard......, then upload libraries on the sharing sites with many built in mistakes, missing samples all the time e.t.c. ... . o/~



How does this stop someone from visiting our site or our distributors site from making a legit purchase and then uploading it to the world? It doesn't and that is how it is done. Torrents are only one aspect. There are countless sites and forums that can say, "Direct and complete download here!" But, if you have one of those "blow up their PC on download" files email me o-[][]-o


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## TheUnfinished (Nov 19, 2012)

germancomponist @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Upload virus infected libraries on the sharing sites. This is not gentle, sure, but are the downloaders friendly?


Sadly, I think you're underestimating who uses pirated software. A company whose products are seemingly faulty via pirating sites will get a reputation for faulty products far wider than you imagine. Not good for the developer.

And the pirate site users are 'legion' and would probably quickly sift out the dodgy copies/uploaders. It might be a lot of work for very little practical gain.


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> How does this stop someone from visiting our site or our distributors site from making a legit purchase and then uploading it to the world? It doesn't and that is how it is done. Torrents are only one aspect. There are countless sites and forums that can say, "Direct and complete download here!" But, if you have one of those "blow up their PC on download" files email me o-[][]-o



Yeah yeah, you are right!


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## Ed (Nov 19, 2012)

Having said that Matt, I remember with Deus Ex 1, you could always tell someone who had downloaded a cracked version becuase they would come onto the forum asking how they get onto the boat and the end of the first stage on Liberty Island. Somehow they built this into the game where if it was cracked it wouldnt let you pass through so you could always tell if someone hadnt paid for it. Was pretty funny and everyone pounced on them


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2012)

A wide field. Our governments are asked here!


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## Leosc (Nov 19, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Leaders of this industry such as Avid and East West for example, invest in copy protection for a very basic reason.



Interesting choice of examples - Avid has been consistently heading south for quite some time now, and the forums are full of people (me included) who are disappointed and hindered by the poor, invasive copyright protection enforced with PLAY.



> Your suggestion of "good product at a fair price" is 101 in all aspects of business. Piracy does not change or encourage this.



You and I know, and yet many people here don't seem to. 



> Remember that it is difficult (not impossible because there are good people out there too) to SELL a tank of gas, no matter your price point and no matter how friendly your staff is, when the gas station down the street is pumping it for FREE. It is just that simple.



Come on, Bela. You know how outright wrong a comparison that is, so why bother to post it? According to your logic, *all* software developers would be out of a job - including the big ones like Microsoft. Not to speak of all Kontakt library developers. Because there _are_ pirated versions out there - and quite easily available too. And yet the market grows and makes more money every year. Quite an antithesis, no?


PS: Gunther, you know how bad the government usually handles such matters - weren't you the one complaining about the GEMA just yesterday? Or the GEZ?


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## Ed (Nov 19, 2012)

Acall @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Come on, Bela. You know how outright wrong a comparison that is, so why bother to post it? According to your logic, *all* software developers would be out of a job - including the big ones like Microsoft. Not to speak of all Kontakt library developers. Because there _are_ pirated versions out there - and quite easily available too. And yet the market grows and makes more money every year. Quite an antithesis, no?



Not only that, but LoveFilm, itunes and NetFlicks wouldnt be doing so well. People apparently are prepared to pay and pay rather a lot.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 19, 2012)

Ed @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Not only that, but LoveFilm, itunes and NetFlicks wouldnt be doing so well. People apparently are prepared to pay and pay rather a lot.



Hi Ed.

Hope you and yours are well.

LoveFilm, itunes and NetFlicks, I would imagine are large enough to consume the loss. Smaller companies in such a niche biz cannot. It is not a positive to the bottom-line to have every single product created over 10 years available in a single, at no cost, click. I for one could not afford the loss. East West and Avid are companies I look up to and I trust they do not waste money & time on protection just for the hell of it. It is counter productive to state piracy is bad but then refute its impact. 

In any case, I am happy to be somewhat removed from the issue now. Most of my own income comes from Equine training theses days. Giddy up!  I have a few things I like to get out but I'll wait for protection. Just my take.

Peace out


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 19, 2012)

Acall @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Come on, Bela. You know how outright wrong a comparison that is, so why bother to post it? According to your logic, *all* software developers would be out of a job - including the big ones like Microsoft. Not to speak of all Kontakt library developers. Because there _are_ pirated versions out there - and quite easily available too. And yet the market grows and makes more money every year. Quite an antithesis, no?



I ask again, why spend $100, or $200 or $500 or $1,000 on a product you can download for free? Any answer you may give is not the answer the thousands of torrent and shareware sites will agree with. Please keep that in mind.

I did say however that *there are good people out there that continue to buy the software they use and it is because of them the lights stay on*. I did not say it is the death of any one or all companies. I did say that piracy is a serious blow to a smaller companies bottom line. You are free to second guess those that actually deal with this bullsh-t of course  I remember when Nick Phoenix posted along the lines of, "If we lose our protection, I'll just stop developing." I see NP as a monster in this line of work. I do not second guess the man.

Later


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## AndrewS (Nov 19, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> But, if you have one of those "blow up their PC on download" files email me o-[][]-o



There are .zip bombs out there which when compressed are a few kilobytes, but when decompressed start to get up in the petabyte range. You'll have to find them yourself though.

This probably wouldn't deter the high level pirates, very little will unfortunately, but you'll definitely make sure that those people who aren't paying attention are in for a real surprise.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 19, 2012)

Acall @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> StevenOBrien @ Mon Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't punish your customers.
> ...



This has been talked about plenty of times and the results, as frequently reported by devs, is that what you're saying is not true. Copy protection IS needed.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 19, 2012)

Would devs moving to Mach5 en masse be considered copy protection? :mrgreen: It starting to freak me out that so many of us are tied to Kontakt due to our investments.


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## germancomponist (Nov 19, 2012)

Acall @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> PS: Gunther, you know how bad the government usually handles such matters - weren't you the one complaining about the GEMA just yesterday? Or the GEZ?



The GAME is a private institution. ... .


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 19, 2012)

> I do this for a living and the cost of an iLok and more importantly down time protection really isn't an issue. I think you have to realize that Shreddage may appeal to the hobbyist and the pro alike but LASS etc would not be a hobbyists first choice.



I disagree with you on this, actually. LASS for example is only out of reach of the hobbyist market because of its price, not really any other factors. You can see NI selling products like Session Strings and Action Strings quite successfully. GPO with its $150-200 price point was immensely popular, and QLSO to this date is a big success (definitely in the Kontakt days, maybe less so now, I wouldn't know).

Don't discount hobbyists and their needs. By making a very high-quality product for professionals you are inherently making something great for hobbyists as well; most people don't like buying 'light' products, or stripped/dumbed-down versions. With proper pricing and accessibility, everyone wins.

I would actually argue that higher-end libraries in the $500-1000 range perhaps need copy protection the least. The further you go into the 'pro-only' price territory, the less chance that a non-pro would buy it. MOST pros just buy their software as a matter of course. Again, just my observation. We all know people who have pirated software in their studios but I think that is the exception and not the rule. If you go to any forum where people are talking about audio warez, it's mostly kids, not people working at Remote Control.


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## Ed (Nov 19, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Ed @ Mon Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Not only that, but LoveFilm, itunes and NetFlicks wouldnt be doing so well. People apparently are prepared to pay and pay rather a lot.
> ...



If your claim is that people wont pay for something they can get for free, clearly thats not true. People can easily download torrents of movies, but instead they pay Netflicks and LoveFilm and they are making quite a bit of money from it. Look into how well these guys are doing.

But you know from a business perspective even if 80% of the people using your product didnt pay for it, if that 20% of users makes your product successful then its still a successful business. Nick P says he would stop developing if they didnt have Play's CP, that would only make business sense if he had evidence that sales dropped to the point where it was not profitable anymore. I also still maintain devs risk loosing more money using software like Play than just using Kontakt because legit users are less likely to buy it and so its possible to actually end up with a NET LOSS despite stopping people from pirating your library. I would have bought some Play libs by now, but because its Play i have none and more and more decide I just dont want to buy into the whole thing, even if someone gave it to me for free I'd think twice about using it THATS how much it matters.


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## Leosc (Nov 19, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> I ask again, why spend $100, or $200 or $500 or $1,000 on a product you can download for free? Any answer you may give is not the answer the thousands of torrent and shareware sites will agree with. Please keep that in mind.



Why? Because I'm a professional. I try to make money off the music I make with the help of these libraries. And that necessitates me having a licence for them unless I want to risk serious litigation. 

What you're doing here is putting yourself into the wrong mindset. Pirates are not our demographic. And personally, I've hardly heard of any professional who uses pirated libraries for mockups or scores. On the other hand, I know of a bunch of hobbyists who do use pirated libraries, because they can't afford the price, are not going to use them for commercial purposes anyway, or simply wouldn't buy them either way. 



> This has been talked about plenty of times and the results, as frequently reported by devs, is that what you're saying is not true. Copy protection IS needed.



Interesting. 'cause I'm a part-time dev. And most of my colleagues, and other devs I've talked to, support my notion. Not to mention that companies in other fields of software development - Adobe, Microsoft etc - who make productive software are very successful in what they do, even though their copy protection has always been cracked. 
Moreover, please don't forget that I wrote _*excessive* copy protection_ is not needed to be successful in business.

Also, from a personal perspective, I'm with Ed - I would've had 2 or 3 EWQL libraries by now if it weren't for PLAY and iLok. But I've found substitutes.



germancomponist said:


> The GAME is a private institution. ... .



... acting under, and with German jurisdiction.


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## quantum7 (Nov 19, 2012)

Ed @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> I also still maintain devs risk loosing more money using software like Play than just using Kontakt because legit users are less likely to buy it and so its possible to actually end up with a NET LOSS despite stopping people from pirating your library.



I would agree with Ed. For example, I would love to buy TARI's libraries, but there is no freakin' way I am using Engine. EW makes great libs, which I have bought many of, but I've nearly had it with PLAY and haven't bought any more PLAY title in over 2 years now. I really enjoy 8dio libs and recently purchased Liberis. I would have never bought it though, if it was a PLAY or Engine library, hence 8dio would have lost a sale. I may be in the minority on this, but I would have to assume that many others would feel the same as I do on the matter.


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## Ed (Nov 19, 2012)

I'd say Tari is a great example, I've lost count of how many times Ive read people saying they wont buy it or cant decide to buy it purely because its Engine and not Kontakt even though they love the sound of his library. Thats a LOT of turnover gone, I dont believe it was worth it even if he reduced piracy by 100%.


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## spectrum (Nov 19, 2012)

StevenOBrien @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> As for piracy, it would be interesting to see some numbers from developers. Is there a significant drop in sales after the first pirated copy is released?


Absolutely. 



> I'm also interested to know how pricing affects things. Are lower priced libraries less likely candidates for piracy?


No. Even free libraries get pirated all the time.

Everything that can be pirated, does get pirated.

The most popular products that can be pirated are the ones that get pirated the most....not too surprising there.



> Is there a bigger relative loss from selling an expensive library that gets pirated or a cheaper library that gets pirated?


Depends on the product, but generally an expensive product is priced the way it is because it appeals to a limited audience and cost a lot to produce. So yes, expensive products stand to lose more in general.


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## spectrum (Nov 19, 2012)

passenger57 @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> After reading all this it seems like some sort of non hardware license cloud based authentication would be the best bet. That way composers could travel with their libraries without worry of theft or iLok / elicenser damage or loss.


That's essentially how Spectrasonics system works and why why went that direction.

Portability and maintaining the ability to use music software for Live Performance is very important to us.


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## jb (Nov 19, 2012)

passenger57 @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> When I travel I only take my NI activated libraries on my laptop, I never want to risk losing or breaking a dongle and so I leave the EW and Vienna libraries at home. I tend to stay away from libraries with dongles whenever possible. It's just too much of a hassle and inconveniencing the honest customer.



That's bullshit. 

A dongle is not a hassle. You plug it in, your software works. It is the key to your to your 'car' (and cumulatively, some people's software collection equals that a nice car) You know it is possible you can lose/break your key so you have the forethought to make preparations if that happens. You have a spare copy and do your best to not break/lose it.

Once I drove 200 miles away and I lost the key to my car, but I didn't bitch at Honda for making the use of their vehicle "such a hassle." 

If you spent a good deal of money on your samples and you know you need your key to use it, you will, I'm certain, make sure you think ahead and take proper precaution.

Seriously, dongles are not a hassle. I suspect a good portion of those who complain about them are pirates themselves and just don't want to see their favorite software "unavailable". Now, I know people say cracked copies of stuff exists, but it is doubtful it even works and that it is pirated in the same capacity as software without it.


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## passenger57 (Nov 19, 2012)

> That's bullshit.



jb - Hmmmm where to begin.. IT'S NOT 'BULLSHIT' TO ME YOU MORON! Speak for yourself but dont put that crappy attitude me, I'm just expressing my opinion don't need a forum member being hostile to me. I just don't like them OK!?? If I lost a car key (to use your analogy) I wouldn't have to buy the car all over again would I?!! If I lost a dongle or had it stolen I'd have a bitch of a time getting a new one during which time my deadline comes and goes. If I was on the road, forget about it, I'd never got it resolved in time. In some cases I'd probably have to buy the library all over again and I don't need to risk that when traveling. Thanks for pissing me off with your attitude.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 19, 2012)

Folks - several issues kept getting conflated. Specifically all the "I hate Play / Engine" comments - for much of this, the issue is the player itself is poor, not necessarily the CP. Engine can't do scripting.... why is this relevant to the use of iLok's in general? It's only relevant to why people should avoid Engine.

Bela in particular - how do you view all the positive Mach 5 feedback? Do you not see this as a viable way forward? AFAIK it's the only player available with rugged CP open to 3rd parties, so all discussions of Play, Engine (or VSL with their less rugged CP) are moot. Hate to say it, but right now I think Tari backed the wrong horse (unless there are major improvements on the way) - but that's all tangential.



jb @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> passenger57 @ Mon Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > When I travel I only take my NI activated libraries on my laptop, I never want to risk losing or breaking a dongle and so I leave the EW and Vienna libraries at home. I tend to stay away from libraries with dongles whenever possible. It's just too much of a hassle and inconveniencing the honest customer.
> ...



jb - that is a very clumsy post, shall we say. Factually wildly innacurate - when I've moved my car from A to B I've never had to spend a week rebuilding the driveway. And on that car key analogy... anyone here with an iLok want to wander round with it in their back pocket every day? No?

It's not really equivalent at all. I occasionally have to travel with my iLok and I hate it. But it has to be done, and I get over it. And yet, it is true that most of my problems have been with Play and not iLok - I've not had any real Pro Tools issues.

JB's post is one of those potential thread-derailers though... would be great if we can keep this on the topic of solutions.

As to the Waves / Spectrasonics system - it's brilliant from a user's perspective. but - I believe - the Waves system was cracked on day of release. It isn't as rugged as iLok, and I guess that would be a problem for some devs.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 20, 2012)

Jb and Passenger, cool it. You're both being over the top. Respect each other and remember that this is a public forum, not a private chat.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 20, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Bela in particular - how do you view all the positive Mach 5 feedback? Do you not see this as a viable way forward? AFAIK it's the only player available with rugged CP open to 3rd parties, so all discussions of Play, Engine (or VSL with their less rugged CP) are moot. Hate to say it, but right now I think Tari backed the wrong horse (unless there are major improvements on the way) - but that's all tangential.



Tari should chime in and speak for and defend his own position but my very good friend is making his living doing what he loves and he does it well. Engine was his way forward. Engine will grow over time to be just as valuable as the rest. I did not work for me as I needed scripts but I had very little issue running the program. I do know personally that it was a great relief for him to be able to simply create and not stress over theft. Even know piracy does not hurt your bottom line :roll: 

As for Mach 5, I was one of the first in line to develop for the format. I probably have 3 months worth of "Don't stress. It will be affordable!!" emails in a saved folder. Well, when all was said and done, the licensing was anything but affordable. Simple as that on my end.

noiseboyuk, the world needs more like you, mate!


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## passenger57 (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks noiseboyuk - your response was a bit more elegant than mine :D
Apologies Ned, I was just taken aback there


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 20, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ 20/11/2012 said:


> As for Mach 5, I was one of the first in line to develop for the format. I probably have 3 months worth of "Don't stress. It will be affordable!!" emails in a saved folder. Well, when all was said and done, the licensing was anything but affordable. Simple as that on my end.



Oh, how depressing to read. :cry:


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## tsonic (Nov 20, 2012)

Just thought I'd pitch in with a poss idea...as a dev I too think about this problem a fair bit.

It strikes me that maybe a change in thinking/pricing might be a solution.
For example - certain niche products are expensive,as mentioned, because they take a lot of time and investment to produce, for a relatively small clientelle. 

However - I'm very sure that some of the pirates who download such libraries wouldn't fall into the bracket of those who they were originally designed for....in other words...if it has a rep as being 'good','interesting' or unobtainable, many types of people (regardless of their musical situation) want a piece of it.

So, perhaps if such libraries were a 10th of the price, it's very possible that 10 times as many people might buy them...just to have in their arsenal...whether or not they ever even use it. Ok bit naive perhaps, but I wonder what % there are of people who lust after a library but know they'll never afford it compared to those that do buy, and what price would the ones that didn't be willing to pay.

Where I'm going with this is the notion that perhaps there is a large enough honest custom base out there, if only the prices were altered, for the profits to remain the same, if not better (take the NI info mentioned earlier). It's not just Hollywood composers who use these orchestral libraries anymore. 
It seems that there could be a huge amount of people who would buy everything, just to have it - people always want the best,whether they know how to use it or not....and they would still be a legit customer.

One possible solution - and I don't know if this is nuts or not - might be to setup a universal online sample library site/directory, for devs to unite and sell together from. 

It could offer huge discounts to members - free packs/group buys/forums etc.
Kind of designed to make the pirates feel really left out in the cold, through its major perks (and of course 'hot off the press' members only libraries etc etc.)

The dev members could partake in group ads in the big mags etc.
Profits from paid adverts on the site could go towards running costs .
So a one stop shop that brings it all together in one place.

The libraries could also be stored online, so if anyone registered breaks a hard-drive etc, it's all protected and safely up there for them to re-download.


As I say, maybe its a bit naive, but I'm coming from the angle that it may well be there's plenty to go round for everyone, if we just rethink things a little.

Interested to know if anyone thinks this has any potential.


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Nov 20, 2012)

tsonic @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Just thought I'd pitch in with a poss idea...as a dev I too think about this problem a fair bit.
> 
> It strikes me that maybe a change in thinking/pricing might be a solution.
> For example - certain niche products are expensive,as mentioned, because they take a lot of time and investment to produce, for a relatively small clientelle.
> ...



Great posts!
I think that with mechanism like contiunata and or i lok. things are far better than akai or gstudio days... i can´t think of anything else you people posted, but great ideas in this posts keep it sticky!


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## TARI (Nov 20, 2012)

Hello,

I don't like posting in this kind of threads, but I will make an exception :wink: 

First of all I would like to say that there are many reasons why I left Kontakt and started using Engine. There is no doubt Kontakt is the best sample player out there, but it is also true that NI doesn't care at all about developers. We have to pay a lot of money upfront for a weak copy protection. We all know it doesn't work.
Engine is an amazing sample player, although it doesn't have the scripting capabilities that Kontakt has, it has quite a few great ones. Independence had an awesome legato function before Kontakt started to use scripting... 
I want to support Best Service as they are doing a great job with their sample player. It is getting better every day and it will have some great improvements in the near future.
I am passionate about my job and love supporting great and professional people. Not always the easy way is best one in the long term. 

As other developers said, once the product is in a warez site, sales drop and unfortunately, it is not because some kids download it to have fun, it is because quite a few professional composers download it to use for free. Sad but true :-( I know quite a few...

IMO, sound is what matters, and as a composer that's what I believe. I don't care about the sample player, I care about the sounds I get for my music. Once the track is done, no one knows what sample player you used, but can hear the quality of your music and the stuff you used.

Another point, is that I hate to see how other composers use the same stuff I use without paying a cent...using protected software ensures that just you and others who paid as you did, use the sounds. I prefer losing sales from people that just like Kontakt, but in the other hand, in this way I care about legit users that support us.

In our World, copy protection is a must! in an utopic world, probably not.

Fortunately here there are many people that buy original software!! :D Thanks for that!! =o


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## quantum7 (Nov 20, 2012)

I know that stealing is not right, no matter the outcome, but please read my entire post:

I have a relative who downloads everything available pertaining to music software (and everything else). He is on welfare and would never in a million years have bought most of what he downloads. It is absolutely wrong of course, and I have told him that. 

Here is the positive spin son this- To date, because of him showing me the software he downloads on his laptop and Casio midi keyboard (during family trips to see him) I have purchased five upper-priced libraries in the last 2 years. The demos to these particular products didn't sell me, but once I played them I bought them. I've also been introduced to and purchased software that I was never aware of because of him downloading so much stuff. I've tried to convince him over the years to actually buy what he uses and to his credit has bought some stuff due to my persistence, but anyway, I spent over 5k this year in music software and he has downloaded nearly all of it all for free. It doesn't bug me that much, though, because he doesn't earn money from it and rarely uses any of it for more than a few days before going on to the next download to try stuff out. The guy has absolutely no music talent IMO and just likes to show it off that he has it on his hard drive.

The point I am trying to convey here is that perhaps some good can come out of piracy through honest people getting exposed to software that they wouldn't have had a chance to. There will ALWAYS be people who want free stuff. *(EDIT- sorry for being politically incorrect)* I just don't want us all to suffer with undesirable or inferior software just to defeat piracy. 

Obviously piracy is hurting developers, but c'mon, there are dozens of libraries released nearly every month on Kontakt format, so obviously there is still money to be made.....enough to spend thousands of hours and dollars on creating them all. Am I missing something?


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## RiffWraith (Nov 20, 2012)

quantum7 @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> I have a relative who downloads everything available pertaining to music software (and everything else). He is on welfare and would never in a million years have bought most of what he downloads.



Any reason he doesn't take the time he spends on illegal d/ls and use it to find gainful employment?


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 20, 2012)

quantum7 @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> My God, the last US election has shown that a whole lot of people basically want free stuff and do not want to work for it.



Total nonsense. Keep propagating that though please, so we Democrats can win a lot more elections.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 20, 2012)

Sean, inserting political stuff into this thread is absolutely uncalled-for and useless, a distraction. Please stick to the topic (same goes for Jay).


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 20, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Sean, inserting political stuff into this thread is absolutely uncalled-for and useless, a distraction. Please stick to the topic (same goes for Jay).



Fine Ned, but if I had not responded, you know full well that your fellow moderator, the inestimable Mr.Batzdorf would have as soon as he read it  :lol:


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## quantum7 (Nov 20, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> quantum7 @ Wed Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I have a relative who downloads everything available pertaining to music software (and everything else). He is on welfare and would never in a million years have bought most of what he downloads.
> ...



He was in a horrible car accident and can barely walk. He sits on the computer nearly his entire waking life. 



EastWest Lurker @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Nov 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Sean, inserting political stuff into this thread is absolutely uncalled-for and useless, a distraction. Please stick to the topic (same goes for Jay).
> ...



Oops, I apologize to everyone about interjecting politics into the discussion. I was just trying to make a point. I empathize and am friends with people from all political beliefs and do not believe any belief is superior to another. I was simply making a totally valid point that a whole lot of people want free stuff, that is all.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 20, 2012)

No, Sean, that is not only what you wrote. Please don't make me have to quote you, and stop wasting space on this very valuable thread.


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## RiffWraith (Nov 20, 2012)

quantum7 @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> He was in a horrible car accident and can barely walk. He sits on the computer nearly his entire waking life.



Ah, so it's not stright-up welfare - he is disabled. Very sorry to hear that.

Cheers.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks so much for posting, Francis and Tari. Francis - really really sad to hear. Incredibly dumb on the part of MOTU it seems to me. They have a real opportunity here... I don't get the short term greed for a high license fee, I really don't. If a rash of developers were to switch to Mach Five, it stands to reason that the overall customer base of Mach Five will sky-rocket.

Tari, I really hope you're right, and Engine gets competitive soon. Sadly I don't agree that it's all about the sound. For me, I've pretty much stopped buying EWQL, for various reasons... yet their libs have a great sound. But I do really admire your stance, and it's very healthy that NI has some competition... it has to start somewhere. 

I don't know much you developers talk to each other. If there were, say, a dozen small to middling developers who are interested in Mach Five, it might be worth a joint approach to MOTU to see if they see sense?


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## Mike Greene (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't know what their license fee is, but there are a lot of UVI titles in the sub $200 range (some even less than $100,) so I'm not so sure their license fee could be all that outrageous. Not that I'm doubting Frank, who I have a lot of respect for, but I'd be interested to see what the rates would be today.


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## MacQ (Nov 20, 2012)

I seriously do think that Machfive 3 is the way to go. I talked to Alain at UVI about the licensing, and it's quite reasonable. In my opinion, it's more reasonable than the terms for the use of the Kontakt player. I for one will be moving to it exclusively (following the release and then subsequent porting of my in-development Kontakt 5 library).

Who's with me?! Haha!


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 20, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Thanks so much for posting, Francis and Tari. Francis - really really sad to hear. Incredibly dumb on the part of MOTU it seems to me. They have a real opportunity here... I don't get the short term greed for a high license fee, I really don't. If a rash of developers were to switch to Mach Five, it stands to reason that the overall customer base of Mach Five will sky-rocket.



Our talks were a couple of months leading up to the actual release of M5. The pricing may have become more competitive since. I have not been in touch recently but, I had hoped to port our entire catalog over and to be exclusive to the format.

Thank you,


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## quantum7 (Nov 20, 2012)

Can someone explain why watermarking hasn't been more successful at stopping piracy? Originally it seemed like a great solution.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 20, 2012)

quantum7 @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Can someone explain why watermarking hasn't been more successful at stopping piracy? Originally it seemed like a great solution.



Though Watermarking is a strong deterrent it is not copy protection in the true sense. There is nothing physical to obstruct the share. Watermarking will obtain the guilty parties identity and since most enjoy anonymity that may cause them to think twice but if and once up'd, the damage is already done. There's a darker method to thwart watermarks but I'll stay silent on that.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 20, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Watermarking will obtain the guilty parties identity and since most enjoy anonymity that may cause them to think twice but if and once up'd, the damage is already done.


This is another reason why it's not a good idea to go for the _"price it low and let volume make up the difference"_ business model. By keeping the customer base smaller and more "exclusive," the chances of someone uploading files to a torrent site are much smaller.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 20, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Francis Belardino @ Tue Nov 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Watermarking will obtain the guilty parties identity and since most enjoy anonymity that may cause them to think twice but if and once up'd, the damage is already done.
> ...



I just don't know about that. It's easy to find pirated versions of libraries costing $1000+. Plus, even if you do have a watermarked version, how are you going to go after the perpetrator if they live in some other country? It's going to be difficult and expensive. Hell, it's difficult and expensive even if they're in this country. I maintain that companies like NI and Spectrasonics enjoy a lot of success because they have great products with mass appeal. Nothing wrong with niche (a number of our libraries are certainly narrow in focus) but it's not inherently better, or worse.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 20, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Francis Belardino @ Tue Nov 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Watermarking will obtain the guilty parties identity and since most enjoy anonymity that may cause them to think twice but if and once up'd, the damage is already done.
> ...



Sadly that is not a deterrent ether, Mike. Back when I was working the DMCA shut downs, etc and I had seen uploads of well known sample products that MSRP at $500-$1,000 range. I have also witnessed a group organizing a 'chip in' to purchase another high-end product that became a free down. I did of course alert the developers of the links. I have seen modestly priced products and I have seen developer giveaways there. It is some form of twisted trophy and they have zero moral compass.


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## tcollins (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm hoping that copy protection will become unnecessary as copyright enforcement tightens.
The DMCA is really quite powerful , and is an effective tool in getting pirated files removed. You can't do it by yourself (I tried), but there are services that can be very effective. 

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think the days of rampant piracy will soon be coming to an end. As the cash starved governments of the world (I'm thinking mainly of the US) look for new revenue, they will finally turn to internet sales, and when they do the pirate party will end. Piracy= lost legit sales= lost tax revenue. It is possible to police the internet (like in China) and they will. 

I'm not saying that this is a good thing altogether, of course, but it will help creative types like composers, writers, movie makers, and sample library developers to protect their intellectual property. And it will protect the interests of honest people who actually pay for these products. It will also lessen the need for annoying copy-protection. 

In the meantime, we can keep up the pressure on file sharing sites. They must respond to DMCA takedown requests, or they risk being blocked by browsers and search engines. Someone has to sit at a computer at these sites and remove files everyday. At some point it won't be worth it to keep the site going. The burden of proof needs to switch to the file sharing site. They should check each uploaded file for copyright infringement before making it available, not wait for a complaint from the copyright holder. And so should YouTube, for that matter. If a television producer uses a song in a program, he/she contacts the copyright holder BEFORE that show airs. That's the way it has always worked. 

That's the view from behind my rose-colored glasses, anyway.


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## NYC Composer (Nov 20, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> Would devs moving to Mach5 en masse be considered copy protection? :mrgreen: It starting to freak me out that so many of us are tied to Kontakt due to our investments.




What's interesting to me about this is that when I initially started to buy samples on CD for my Roland system, devs were often making them in a variety of formats-Roland, Akai, EMU, generally. Now-Kontakt. Only Kontakt, with the occasional addition of REX/Stylus. It IS a little scary, actually.


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## spectrum (Nov 20, 2012)

tsonic @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> It strikes me that maybe a change in thinking/pricing might be a solution....
> So, perhaps if such libraries were a 10th of the price, it's very possible that 10 times as many people might buy them...just to have in their arsenal...whether or not they ever even use it. Ok bit naive perhaps, but I wonder what % there are of people who lust after a library but know they'll never afford it compared to those that do buy, and what price would the ones that didn't be willing to pay.....
> As I say, maybe its a bit naive, but I'm coming from the angle that it may well be there's plenty to go round for everyone, if we just rethink things a little...


Not a new idea....it's actually been tried many, many times.

Oddly enough, this thinking has destroyed far more developers over the years than piracy has! (and I'm sure that many more will try and continue to fail)

All the developers that have prospered long-term in this business either have mid-range pro-priced high-quality products that they sell in quantity...or they have hi priced high-quality niche products.

(There are certainly distributors that sell all the cheap titles and that has been a profitable approach for them, but I'm talking about individual developers here)

The only exception to this rule is Apple....which has the only true mass-market/low price sample library success stories that I'm aware of. (and of course they could do it because they are Apple)


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## mikebarry (Nov 21, 2012)

Piracy - so sorry that everyone is still suffering with this. I can't see it going anywhere in the near future. I think the only thing that works is the fear that, if caught and prosecuted, you can end up with a pretty big bill. Best luck to 9 Volt.


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## tsonic (Nov 21, 2012)

spectrum @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> tsonic @ Tue Nov 20 said:
> 
> 
> > It strikes me that maybe a change in thinking/pricing might be a solution....
> ...



i'm sure you're right...which doesn't bode well for me.. - but I'm thinking in tandem with a whole new approach to selling - ie a universal shopfront (like itunes). 
I've certainly noticed dramatic increases in sales due to price re-structuring - there's the 'tempter' price that brings in fence-sitters for example, and if you're a prolific dev, then maybe there's a certain price level that would encourage/enable everyone to keep collecting all of your products - I certainly find I have 'regulars' now who'll buy everything regardless of what it is even. Some people just turn up and buy the lot.
So, it could be that larger libraries are split up into smaller more affordable modules for example.
This in turn would make it a more tedious and less rewarding job for the piraters to upload I imagine..I'm guessing there's a certain kudos in being the one to first upload a particularly expensive library. This would diminish if suddenly there were 10 times as many libraries at a 10th of the price (just by splitting them into smaller modules).

If there was an itunes style sample site, members could have their own cloud storage - so for example they could download certain libraries they own for certain projects, and if they need to free up space on their computer, delete afterwards, knowing its still safely stored online...so therefore they wouldn't be put off by clogging their drives with terrabytes of samples they don't often use (which might be a by-product thought if prices dropped and people were able to accumulate many more libraries).
This almost could lead to the possibility of hiring librairies for certain projects - not sure how to implement, but it could be that they're built into a custom player that times out after your time is up (of course you could top up if need be). 
Lots of possibilities really.
I often think of the net as being an example of 'the way it turned out'.
It has evolved, and reshaped itself, rather than being pre-planned from the start.
The sample library industry and it's seller/company relationship to the public, to me, is an example of 'the way it turned out'. There's no co-ordination - it's everyone for themselves.
This breeds a (albeit friendly) dog-eat-dog mentality that may well be having a knock-on effect in many areas we wouldn't even think of..practically every company is a victim to piracy, so it just strikes me that there needs to be a co-operative sales enviroment created that would be such a fantastic and useful resource to genuine customers that it would practically be unthinkable not to be a member!
This of course would mean a drastic sea-change in thinking as regards pricing /licensing etc...going back to my original point though that I think there is 'enough to go round'


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 21, 2012)

It's an interesting idea, tsonic. I do think in general that there's much to be gained by smaller developers pooling resources. In fact, isn't there already a collective of boutique libraries somewhere? Perhaps that concept could be expanded....


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## Jarkko Hietanen (Nov 21, 2012)

..Is piracy really an issue in samples when it really comes down to it tho? I just have a theory that nearly all the people who are making money with the music they create with samples, are also paying for these libraries and are either semi- or professional. These are the people who also purchase the very expensive libraries too.

The people who pirate these libraries are mostly young people who are trying out and playing around with these new cool things that are now available to them so easy, even if they hardly knew how to even use them well, or have really any actual interest in pursuing a career in composing for real.

Just my theory, but I think the people who pirate these, would never buy libraries in the first place. Just because they are available to them illegally for free, they give them a try. There might actually be some potential future customers in there who realize after "testing" out these things that they might have talent for this and it might actually trigger a new spark in them. How else would you explain the sudden explosion in bedroom composers, and I bet this explosion has also triggered the increasing volume of sample libraries out there nowadays. 

It's a complicated formula and somehow I just feel companies focus so much on the fact their products are being pirated in general that they miss the end-result of all this, which might actually be that the markets aren't really suffering so much from pirating, rather benefiting from it in the long-run by gaining more customers and raising interest towards composing in younger people.

Just a theory tho 

Let me emphasize too that I feel this might really be the case in sample libraries. But not in movies, games or songs. These are things that appeal to nearly all people everywhere, the sense of doing something wrong or illegal and immoral gets really low when such masses do these things on everyday basis. But sample libraries for composers are a tiny market compared to these, the users and target groups are small, it gets more personal and of course if you start a career in this field, you feel obligated to pay for your gear, it becomes personal.


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## mikebarry (Nov 21, 2012)

Jarkko, that is a common thought but unfortunately its been proven wrong. And it doesn't make it any more legal.


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## tsonic (Nov 21, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> It's an interesting idea, tsonic. I do think in general that there's much to be gained by smaller developers pooling resources. In fact, isn't there already a collective of boutique libraries somewhere? Perhaps that concept could be expanded....



Well yes, there's sampleism for example, which is more aimed at indie devs, though I'm sure they'd like to expand.
However - I think for this to work, it would need to encompass all devs - much as itunes covers Muse as well as Norbert and the Nobodies.
It'd need the gravitas of the established larger companies for it to gather the necessary momentum. 
Of course - perhaps the likes of Native might not play ball...but if the majority did, it'd certainly shake things up a bit 

It could for example have an 'indie section'...the pro/commercial area perhaps is based on vol of sales...so the indie devs can be promoted up...or, it could be a diff fee / rate for the dev to join - with it maybe being free for the indies to inhabit their area. 
However the mechanics, I believe a one-stop shop would be an amazing resource.

btw - another twist might be a 'dividend' system for the devs - so a % of all sales goes into a pot, and then is divided somehow between the devs (perhaps also revenue from advertising). Not sure if my logic is correct here...but if there were for arguments sake a 100 devs, and a £ of every sale went into the pot, then each dev would get a penny per sale. Does that work? Might do...a sort of beneficiary tax system


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## jamwerks (Nov 21, 2012)

Jarkko Hietanen @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> ..Is piracy really an issue in samples when it really comes down to it tho? I just have a theory that nearly all the people who are making money with the music they create with samples, are also paying for these libraries.



Unfortunately not true. 99% of the people I know in Italy (making money) never pay for any sw. There are a lot of cultural factors involved also.

Too bad NI can't come up with a system (dongle) that would cut back on Kontakt sample freud.


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## Jarkko Hietanen (Nov 21, 2012)

jamwerks @ 21.11.2012 said:


> Jarkko Hietanen @ Wed Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > ..Is piracy really an issue in samples when it really comes down to it tho? I just have a theory that nearly all the people who are making money with the music they create with samples, are also paying for these libraries.
> ...



I guess I'm just romanticising the issue too much, cultural differencies play a factor and its so difficult to do guesswork on it when you yourself are not surrounded by such people. I hope there's at least some point to my theory however.


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## SergeD (Nov 21, 2012)

A suggestion I made 10 years ago... The proposal is clumsy but the essence of the idea is something to dig into.

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/11931-Suggestion-to-limit-piracy (http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/sho ... mit-piracy)

Still believe that WM Reader is the best solution...


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## Chriss Ons (Nov 21, 2012)

Everybody likes to have high quality instruments to make music with - the more the better - but unfortunately most of us, amateur and pro alike, need to make choices when it comes to spending our budget. There's an ever increasing amount of great libraries to choose from - just look at what came out in 2012 alone - and only so much we can spend... We all know how frustrating this can be. (Well actually some of the devs on here are largely responsible for my current depression - but I take pills for that now, and I got myself a piggybank recently. The only way is up.)

So make those choices, but _pay for what you use_, and if you can, raise awareness about the fact that it's not cool to rip off the hard work of these talented V.I. developers. Quaint as it may sound: they feel you deserve the best instruments for your music, so they deserve better than being denied what they're entitled to: the license fee from each person who uses their work - right away. No excuses. 

The argument that the availability of pirated libraries might enable developers to lock in customers and benefit from increased sales in the future, does little else than further undermine the value of a developer's intellectual property, or any notion of the fact that there actually is such a thing. 

The same applies to the argument that only a fraction of illegal downloads actually hurt sales... I guess that's easy to say if you're not the one who has to deal with the fact that an ever increasing number of people out there are using your work but blatantly refuse to pay you for it - even though you're entitled to those rewards - simply to have a sustainable business and keep on developing VI's - and raise the bar while you're at it. 

If you're one of those people who keep on repeating the mantra that it's really not all that bad, I guess you are more than fit for the following job: 

As of tomorrow, you will all start working for a developer of your choice. You will all work long hours, compete with eachother, try to come up with great products - and no, you will NOT get paid for most of your efforts. You'll get paid for some of your work, but certainly not all of it. But there's an upside: some of you just very well might get a bonus... of some sort... Eventually. 

Think about that for just one minute. The fact that you can "get away" with treating someone like that by hitting "download", doesn't make it any less illegal, unethical, unfair and - pardon my french - downright f*#cking lame to do. 

If you want these guys to continue developing high quality libraries, then make the right choice and _support_ them rather than be a part of the problem or make excuses for condoning piracy. It's _really_ that simple.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 21, 2012)

DMCA takedown is not an easy task and it is extremely time consuming. Speaking from real world experience, links to share sites are like press releases. Within in minutes, your product is being advertised as a free download on hundreds of sites. It spreads like wild fire. The _“bored kids that would not buy it anyway”_ are crafty. Not one link to a download is the same and they upload to various share hosts at one time. You are collecting a massive amount of links that must be sent in one mass takedown notice to each share site. Now multiple all of the above by as many products as you have created that are uploaded and you need a full time staff.

The end result is usually a takedown but as I stated before, unless you are the copyright holder assigned a digital signature, your request will be ignored. Here is the funny part, a day later; the very same sites that removed the infringement will see yet another round of ‘re-ups!’ Never mind the countless blogs and forums that are selling your products for $10.00. As much as I respect the enthusiasm of this thread, there is no ‘direct solution’ to this epidemic other than a very strong copy protection but, with every lock there is a key I suppose. 

Thankfully, there are still *honest people *in the world that take *pride in ownership.*

ps. Bravo Josquin!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 21, 2012)

StevenOBrien @ Mon Nov 19 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:
> 
> 
> > *2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five* (both of which rely on iLok which afaik has never been cracked)
> ...



Stephen, before you go nuclear with Play, why not contact me with your specific issues and let me see if things can be improved for you. I run a 23 GB template of HS, HB, and HOW on a PC from one SSD that cost $1600 and it runs just great.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 21, 2012)

I really find the state of affairs with this very sad. I have never ever used a cracked or illegal copy of anything. I am a professional who makes his living doing this, and for all the moral,copyright, legal and stability issues I never will. I have stated before in this thread that on my system I have iLok, Spectrasonics,Native Instruments, Watermarked samples and non watermarked samples. I have never run into an issue with any of the above methods, granted my rig sits in a studio. I have no issues with CP at all.

In reading this there is not one clear solution, where is the next Eric Persing going to come from. I have being buying his stuff for years, well before Stylus (not even RMX). Spectrasonics were not always the significant company they are now. It seems impossible given the rapid pirating of software to even get a start these days. I am using Eric as an example, as he stated earlier he kept ahead of the pirates simply by having equipment to manufacture CD roms or cassette tapes that was prohibitive to buy. 

None of this tech is beyond the reach of anyone now. We really need to do something now before there is no industry. Am I overreacting, ask Kyle. Who will bother developing in the future.

Very sad state of affairs.


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## tcollins (Nov 21, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> DMCA takedown is not an easy task and it is extremely time consuming. Speaking from real world experience, links to share sites are like press releases. Within in minutes, your product is being advertised as a free download on hundreds of sites. It spreads like wild fire. The _“bored kids that would not buy it anyway”_ are crafty. Not one link to a download is the same and they upload to various share hosts at one time. You are collecting a massive amount of links that must be sent in one mass takedown notice to each share site. Now multiple all of the above by as many products as you have created that are uploaded and you need a full time staff.
> 
> The end result is usually a takedown but as I stated before, unless you are the copyright holder assigned a digital signature, your request will be ignored. Here is the funny part, a day later; the very same sites that removed the infringement will see yet another round of ‘re-ups!’ Never mind the countless blogs and forums that are selling your products for $10.00. As much as I respect the enthusiasm of this thread, there is no ‘direct solution’ to this epidemic other than a very strong copy protection but, with every lock there is a key I suppose.
> 
> ...



I too spent fruitless time sending out DMCA requests, only to be mocked and aggravated, so I hired a service. It's not cheap, but I think it's the only way to win in the end. Copy-protection is just a game to them.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 21, 2012)

tcollins @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> Francis Belardino @ Wed Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > DMCA takedown is not an easy task and it is extremely time consuming. Speaking from real world experience, links to share sites are like press releases. Within in minutes, your product is being advertised as a free download on hundreds of sites. It spreads like wild fire. The _“bored kids that would not buy it anyway”_ are crafty. Not one link to a download is the same and they upload to various share hosts at one time. You are collecting a massive amount of links that must be sent in one mass takedown notice to each share site. Now multiple all of the above by as many products as you have created that are uploaded and you need a full time staff.
> ...



I was not aware there was a service for DMCA takedowns in place. In fact, about a year ago I thought to create the very same. I had contacted developer friends privately about the concept but each thought it would be good money wasted at an attempt to dry up and endless flood. I had to agree with them. Honestly and on a personal note - I have 10 years in and I am grateful for every sale but in light of the epidemic, and regardless of profits or even profits lost, my preference is to wait for a solid protection before any new releases.


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## Kejero (Nov 21, 2012)

Acall @ Tue Nov 20 said:


> Francis Belardino @ Mon Nov 19 said:
> 
> 
> > [...] why spend $100, or $200 or $500 or $1,000 on a product you can download for free? [...]
> ...



Wrong answer. You pay for a library because a lot of people usually spent a lot of money on the creation of it. They need to make that money back, and they need to make enough profit to be able to invest into the creation of new libraries.

You buy albums from your favorite artist if you want that artist to be able to make more albums.
You buy movies so the moviemakers can make more movies.

It's so damn simple. But because we're people, the only thing we care about is not getting caught. We count on the assumption that enough other people _will_ finance our favorite library creator, our favorite artist and our favorite movie maker. It's a lame attitude, yet unfortunately very characteristic for the majority of human kind.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 21, 2012)

woodsdenis @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> I really find the state of affairs with this very sad. I have never ever used a cracked or illegal copy of anything. I am a professional who makes his living doing this, and for all the moral,copyright, legal and stability issues I never will. I have stated before in this thread that on my system I have iLok, Spectrasonics,Native Instruments, Watermarked samples and non watermarked samples. I have never run into an issue with any of the above methods, granted my rig sits in a studio. I have no issues with CP at all.
> 
> In reading this there is not one clear solution, where is the next Eric Persing going to come from. I have being buying his stuff for years, well before Stylus (not even RMX). Spectrasonics were not always the significant company they are now. It seems impossible given the rapid pirating of software to even get a start these days. I am using Eric as an example, as he stated earlier he kept ahead of the pirates simply by having equipment to manufacture CD roms or cassette tapes that was prohibitive to buy.
> 
> ...



I will just point out that in the last 5 years we have seen an explosion in sample developers, many of whom have become quite succesful. Tonehammer/8dio, Soundiron, Cinesamples, Audiobro, Cinematic Strings, and my own humble company to name just a few. Despite piracy and all of us developing Kontakt format products, we have all prospered and grown. In large part thanks to The VI Control community! So, not all is lost just yet


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## Leosc (Nov 21, 2012)

Kejero @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> Wrong answer.



Is that so?
Sorry, I didn't know I needed to be a personal fan of every company I buy products from. Jeez.

Of course it's not a _wrong_ answer, Kejero. There are some companies here I really like to support (Embertone, SampleTekk, Wavesfactory, Spitfire...), and which I usually gladly purchase products I need from. But for the rest, I just compare the samples, and then buy what I think will suit my need _as a composer_ the best. _I_ actually care more about _my_ actions than just getting away with them. But I don't need to be an exhaustive altruist to be a paying consumer.


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## wst3 (Nov 21, 2012)

Andrew makes a good point - but I'm not sure we can identify cause and effect. Yes, there are some amazing developers out there (and don't be too humble Andrew!), and they do seem to be succeeding.

But they are succeeding in spite of piracy, not because of it. And they might be more successful if we could find a solution to the piracy problem.

The market for sample libraries is exploding as the demand for production music explodes. At the same time, piracy of music, sample libraries and software continues to expand. We're just fortunate that demand for the finished products seems to be expanding more quickly than piracy.

The number of people that want to make at least part of income from music production is expanding as well. This also fuels demand for libraries.

Technology plays a role as well - our tools are becoming more capable. That means better libraries, better players, etc... and that means yet more sales.

I still think - and it is one person's opinion only - that the landscape could shift again if Engine or Mach5 or some other player can find a way to protect developer's interests, without increasing the cost to the end-user too much.

Technology, and really poor business and development practices certainly put a hurting on Tascam, but by far their biggest error was placing stringent copy protection on GigaStudio while leaving the library developers hanging. When developers started to migrate to Kontakt (and some of us remember that Kontakt2 was really no threat to GS) and that was the end of the game.

Sorry I can't contribute a brilliant solution to the problem, but I am very encouraged to see folks here working on it.


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## woodsdenis (Nov 21, 2012)

zircon_st @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> woodsdenis @ Wed Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I really find the state of affairs with this very sad. I have never ever used a cracked or illegal copy of anything. I am a professional who makes his living doing this, and for all the moral,copyright, legal and stability issues I never will. I have stated before in this thread that on my system I have iLok, Spectrasonics,Native Instruments, Watermarked samples and non watermarked samples. I have never run into an issue with any of the above methods, granted my rig sits in a studio. I have no issues with CP at all.
> ...



I really hope so Andrew, I am relatively new to Kontakt, though not samplers . Your right the libs you mentioned, plus your humble self, produce outstanding stuff. It really is amazing what can be done with Kontakt scripting etc. I come from the era of Fairlights and Emu2 >8o . 
I have used Kyle's libs for years in Stylus, so I am very familiar with his work. It is really pissing me off TBH.

I shall watch this thread for developments, I would rather have CP than see any of you devs go under because of this.

Happy holidays to those who take them,not over here unfortunately :(


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## quantum7 (Nov 21, 2012)

woodsdenis @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> I would rather have CP than see any of you devs go under because of this.
> (



I agree with that. I too would rather use CP than see all these awesome developers go the way of the Dodo bird.

Happy Thanksgiving to my fellow Americans and everyone else who celebrates TG.


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## Andrew Aversa (Nov 21, 2012)

> But they are succeeding in spite of piracy, not because of it. And they might be more successful if we could find a solution to the piracy problem.



Agreed - no one is arguing, least of all me, that piracy is a *good* thing for developers. Even if one could possibly make that argument for music (piracy/sharing -> more exposure), it doesn't work for samples, and either way doesn't make piracy moral since the choice for how to distribute and at what price should be in the hands of the developers.

It's a situation that needs to be handled carefully. Developers should not exhaust too much of their resources into fighting piracy given that the ROI is low, and it can generate bad will. Additionally, much of the public has been primed to be anti-copyright protection thanks to the tremendous blunders of the RIAA, Sony, etc. suing grandmothers for hundreds of thousands of dollars, hidden rootkits, and so forth. The pro-copyright, anti-piracy movement has lost a lot of credibility as a result.

Laser-targeted DMCAs toward file sharing & torrent sites uploading our products is probably the best solution we can hope for, though it's not a perfect one by any means. Taking down the files isn't 100% effective, but it also has no impact on legit customers. I would be interested in hearing from those who have used DMCA services.


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## mikebarry (Nov 21, 2012)

I was throwing around the idea of working on the other side of the equation as well. What about having a process where honest customers are rewarded and approved for their loyalty. Take someone like Guy, theres not a single pirated patch on his computers, why not having some type of way to apply for authentication from some type of panel and get a "piracy free" logo. 

I know we have many many pirate-free people here, I know for a fact, having caught say half a dozen, that there are pirates here as well. 

Maybe some type of global, cross developer, discount for acheiving a piracy free badge.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 21, 2012)

Mike - at this point, literally tens of thousands of users have the iLok key. Tens of thousands have Syncrosoft or whatever it's called now for Steinberg and Vienna. Reason has a MASSIVE user base in the hundreds of thousands. I believe they use the WIBU key.

Want to see change? Move off of Kontakt to a copy protected environment. Maybe you'll have less programming freedom initially, but you also should be making more money. And, if more devs move to Mach 5 and other copy protected formats, I'm sure NI will "get religion" because money talks, and BS walks.

Nothing happens as long as "cool" and "yeah well, I know..." remain part of the developers vocabulary and nothing happens but talk.

No developer is going to end piracy. Lower prices aren't the solution either. Therefore the best any dev can do is slow it down with copy protection, which requires a strategy change on the part of many devs solely wedded to NI. 

If devs aren't willing to change and NI isn't willing to add copy protection via USB key, then the circle is unbroken, and the situation hasn't changed. 

*THE STOCKDALE PARADOX*
_You must retain faith that you can prevail to greatness in the end, while retaining the discipline to confront the brutal facts of your current reality._


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## mikebarry (Nov 21, 2012)

are you talking to me?


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 21, 2012)

Sounds like a good deal for honest Joes and Joannas, Mike, but two questions - 1) how would a panel know someone is genuinely pirate software-free? 2) Would this really help you guys? If the honest folks pay less, and the pirates still sail free...


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 21, 2012)

mikebarry @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> are you talking to me?



I am responding to you, yes, and talking to the other devs here, too who are reading this thread.


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## mikebarry (Nov 21, 2012)

Peter I am going to ignore your somewhat presumptuous remarks, seems out of character for you. I don't ever tell you how to run your business.

Guy, it was just a thought - deal with the problem on both ends.

AFIK my company is one of only 2-3 who have ever done something drastic about it. If i catch someone red handed again, we will go to war again.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 21, 2012)

mikebarry @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Peter I am going to ignore your somewhat presumptuous remarks, seems out of character for you. I don't ever tell you how to run your business.
> 
> Guy, it was just a thought - deal with the problem on both ends.
> 
> AFIK my company is one of only 2-3 who have ever done something drastic about it. If i catch someone red handed again, we will go to war again.



The thread title is, "Sample Library Piracy - Solutions."

I'm putting out _my_ proposed solution - switch to vendors that offer USB key copy protection to slow piracy. 

Recalling Kyle's openly published situation, every dev has three choices:

1. Find a vendor with a USB key where that key already has a large installed base to draw from, so there's no extra cost to the customer. They already have the key.

2. Stay where you are and hope things change.

3. Stop developing.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 22, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> If devs aren't willing to change and NI isn't willing to add copy protection via USB key, then the circle is unbroken, and the situation hasn't changed.



I could not agree with you more! Some developers are not only willing to change but have been struggling to achieve this change. As you correctly stated, NI needs to be knocked off its high horse _(my words)_ but they and others also need to be more flexible towards 3rd party developers when it comes to pricing and terms. I would also advocate that some _(certainly not all)_ end users make an effort to not reprimand developers for seeking copy protection. 

Have a pleasant holiday, Peter.


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

zircon_st @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> It's a situation that needs to be handled carefully. Developers should not exhaust too much of their resources into fighting piracy given that the ROI is low, and it can generate bad will. Additionally, much of the public has been primed to be anti-copyright protection thanks to the tremendous blunders of the RIAA, Sony, etc. suing grandmothers for hundreds of thousands of dollars, hidden rootkits, and so forth. The pro-copyright, anti-piracy movement has lost a lot of credibility as a result.


However, I think that fines are a good way to go. They just have to be realistic for a first offence. There is no point in fining someone more than they have. I don't think bankrupting people does any good for the public's perception of the industry. However, smaller fines that hurt enough to be noticed may dissuade some people. How many people are more careful about the speed they drive having been caught speeding? The majority, I would imagine.

Obviously there will always be people who don't take their first convictions as a warning, but I think it could work for most people. The difficulty is knowing who the culprits are.

D


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## Kejero (Nov 22, 2012)

Acall @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> Kejero @ Wed Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong answer.
> ...



Don't take it so personal, Acall. We're on the same side here. My main point was my first sentence: _You pay for a library because a lot of people usually spent a lot of money on the creation of it._ That should be all the reason a person should need to pay for it.

You're right, you don't need to be a "fan". But I'm astonished how many people lack a genuine appreciation for the products they buy. When they're in need of an instrument, and they find one, are they genuinely grateful that someone took the time and effort to create it so that they can make use of it? No, most people simply aren't. They are happy that they _have_ it, not that _someone made it_. They take it for granted that something they need is out there.

Do they see the hours of work that went into it? No, they see something to consume. Is that wrong? Yes, I think that's wrong. And I realize few people agree with me. But if everybody had this genuine appreciation, "should I pay for it?" wouldn't even be a question, and piracy wouldn't exist.

I realize that's an entirely idealistic idea, and I make no illusions. I know there is no solution in there, but I believe it is the root of the piracy problem.

Don't get me wrong. It's good there are people like you who simply pay out of decency. But that's not what you originally said. You said you did it out of necessity not to risk litigation, and that's what I responded to.

Now you mention altruism, and I'm sure many of those thiefs actually see it that way: if they'd ever decide to pay, it would be a favor towards the developer. Their good deed of the day. And that is pretty damn sad.


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## hector (Nov 22, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> if more devs move to Mach 5 and other copy protected formats, I'm sure NI will "get religion" because money talks, and BS walks.


i see everyone trying to be helpful throwing ideas around, unless you are the developer that has had experiencing developing for kontakt and mach 5 you really have no basis of constantly repeat this 'fix the piracy problem by switching to mach 5' bs.

try developing for it youwill realize pretty quickly that it is not a kontakt replacement. it is a different beast altogether and it cannot do everything that kontakt can do (the same way kontakt cannot do a lot of some things mach 5 can do).


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## wst3 (Nov 22, 2012)

While your point is accurate Hector, it really only underscores the problem.

NI needs to step up. It would be nice if they stepped up because they care about library developers. It would still be OK if they step up because it makes good business sense.

If another player grows to the point where it is competitive then NI will probably react. It is naive to think they'll do so otherwise, which is a shame.

If a developer can do the analysis, and determine that they are better off with Kontakt in spite of legitimate lost sales, then that's what they should do!


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## quantum7 (Nov 22, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Nov 21 said:


> Want to see change? Move off of Kontakt to a copy protected environment. Maybe you'll have less programming freedom initially, but you also should be making more money.



No offense, but that is a BIG assumption. NI does need to get off their @ss and do something, BUT if Cinesamples, for example, leaves the Kontakt format to something inferior, I and MANY customers will not be buying Cinesamples anymore. Loss of customers due to format change will not make up for the UNKNOWN gains from better copy protection.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 22, 2012)

quantum7 @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Wed Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Want to see change? Move off of Kontakt to a copy protected environment. Maybe you'll have less programming freedom initially, but you also should be making more money.
> ...



The need for copy protection outweighs any possibility of losing a handful of users. Might I suggest a reread of your own words? “I too would rather use CP than see all these awesome developers go the way of the Dodo bird.” 

Ps. Please spare me your “I will never buy another product" dialogue. You need not waste your time in repeating. I remember.


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

I think that it's become clear that different C/P methods suit different users. Now that iLok is much better, I'm quite satisfied with both iLok and eLicenser. Niether cause me any headaches and as both these systems protect the sample developers who use them, there is no downside for me.

However, both my studios are static, in that I don't have to move the dongles around. This means that there is no inconvenience. For people using samples in a live situation, I can see that there is a potential problem.

One of the things that I (and others) have been suggesting, is a method of storing your licence on-line and having a kind of temporary licence that can be downloaded to the dongle. This way and theft or loss would only last for the period the temp licence was active, and wouldn't work once that ran out. This would protect both live users and developers, IMO.

D


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## gregjazz (Nov 22, 2012)

quantum7 @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> No offense, but that is a BIG assumption. NI does need to get off their @ss and do something, BUT if Cinesamples, for example, leaves the Kontakt format to something inferior, I and MANY customers will not be buying Cinesamples anymore. Loss of customers due to format change will not make up for the UNKNOWN gains from better copy protection.


This is absolutely true. It's not worth losing legitimate customers by moving to a more limited platform just to use copy protection that promises to limit piracy. Besides, dongle emulators exist--if all developers moved to a platform that uses dongles, piracy would follow. So why punish legitimate users by implementing intrusive and cumbersome copy protection methods?


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 22, 2012)

gregjazz @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> It's not worth losing legitimate customers by moving to a more limited platform just to use copy protection that promises to limit piracy.



I can only speak for myself but this is why I scraped a release for Engine. We went has far as having it retail ready but it was just a matter of no scripting placing too much burden on the composer. I took it as far as I could with high hopes but opted to trash in the end. I still feel Engine is a great sampler. One needs to sample to it's strengths. Tari has done so very well. So while I agree that I would not consider a dumb down of a product for protection, I don't agree on the rest of what you wrote. I do not see a Dongle as intrusive and cumbersome and I do not see it legitimately hacked any time soon. I refuse to wave the white flag to a scumbag army of pirates and I do not feel "punished" when loading up Pro Tools and making sure the dongle is in the USB port. I'm a legitimate user too, no?


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## gregjazz (Nov 22, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> I do not see a Dongle as intrusive and cumbersome and I do not see it legitimately hacked any time soon.


Oh, I didn't mean that a result of my own experience with dongles--I own a few libraries that use eLicenser (Syncrosoft), etc., and they have been working fine.

I'm basing the statement off what I've seen a common sentiment from consumers, particularly concerning iLok. Really, a lot of the complaints seem to be with implementation: minimal browser support, driver incompatibilities, etc. And then there's the price, return policy, and so on. While dongles may be awesome from a developer's standpoint, that doesn't mean that virtual instrument users have the same perspective, which is why it's important for developers to keep in touch with what consumers want.

I did a quick Google search, and unfortunately dongle emulators have been created for both iLok and eLicenser.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 22, 2012)

gregjazz @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> I did a quick Google search, and unfortunately dongle emulators have been created for both iLok and eLicenser.



Don’t believe everything you read. I happened to know for a fact that there is a large user forum in Russia (name omitted) that has my products, yours and, every other devs products in one nice little click but, they do not have any dongle protected data (or Engine libs for that matter). They actually have an 87 page deep thread on ways to covert said data over to Kontakt via time communing audio outputting. Pathetic are they not?

In any event, allow me to take this opportunity to wish you and yours a happy holiday, Greg!! o-[][]-o


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## Daryl (Nov 22, 2012)

gregjazz @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> I did a quick Google search, and unfortunately dongle emulators have been created for both iLok and eLicenser.


Only for certain old products.

D


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## gregjazz (Nov 22, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Don’t believe everything you read. I happened to know for a fact that there is a large user forum in Russia (name omitted) that has my products, yours and, every other devs products in one nice little click but, they do not have any dongle protected data (or Engine libs for that matter).


Yeah, it's crazy how fast pirated sample libraries spread.

Like some of the other people mentioned, I tried sending out DMCAs, which turned out pretty ineffective. File sharing hosts make it very inconvenient (maybe purposefully?). There was one I ran into which requested that you attach the DMCA as a PDF file in the email. How is that convenient for either party involved? Even so, it would usually take 24-48 hours for them to take down the link, which by then had already been downloaded many times and re-hosted.

Interesting to hear about the dongle stuff, I guess as of now the emulators are unreliable and/or don't cover everything available. I can't help but to think that would change, should there be a mass exodus to dongle-protected formats.



Francis Belardino @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> They actually have an 87 page deep thread on ways to covert said data over to Kontakt via time communing audio outputting. Pathetic are they not?


It's funny to what lengths some people will go. It's like the guy who spends months counterfeiting a $100 bill by hand. So much time and work for so little return.



Francis Belardino @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> In any event, allow me to take this opportunity to wish you and yours a happy holiday, Greg!! o-[][]-o


Hope everything is going well for you! Have a great Thanksgiving.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 22, 2012)

Just to repost and not retype: _DMCA takedown is not an easy task and it is extremely time consuming. Speaking from real world experience, links to share sites are like press releases. Within in minutes, your product is being advertised as a free download on hundreds of sites. It spreads like wild fire. The “bored kids that would not buy it anyway” are crafty. Not one link to a download is the same and they upload to various share hosts at one time. You are collecting a massive amount of links that must be sent in one mass takedown notice to each share site. Now multiple all of the above by as many products as you have created that are uploaded and you need a full time staff. _ 

I have had success with take-downs but, it is an endless flood of reups. I am remembering a post on a piracy forum where they were upset that their "Bela links" keep getting taken down and "They have a right to share" and "Mr. Bela should thank us for the free advertising!" On my mothers eyes I tell you this is a true story. What's even more entertaining is when the have the colossal nerve to email you for tech support. No receipt? No support! Sorry but I am not devoting my time to helping some dirt bag when a legit user needs help.

Blah! Have a drink or or six for me, Greg o-[][]-o
PS. Just sent you a PM of something some think is for their eyes only. Go get em!


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## quantum7 (Nov 22, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> The need for copy protection outweighs any possibility of losing a handful of users. Might I suggest a reread of your own words? “I too would rather use CP than see all these awesome developers go the way of the Dodo bird.”
> 
> Ps. Please spare me your “I will never buy another product" dialogue. You need not waste your time in repeating. I remember.



I was talking about Kontakt using CP. Don't be so upset Francis, I'm on your side and am still a happy owner of several of your past works (using Diva on my next CD). I truly wish you were still making Kontakt libraries. I can only imagine what incredible stuff you would come up with.

Happy Thanksgiving.


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## Arbee (Nov 22, 2012)

A kind of "cloud based virtual dongle" model does sound quite feasible (except perhaps that wireless Internet access + Pro Tools on my system = crash). 

I'm happy to support any initiative that works, since the alternative is paying more for a product simply because there are people who are happy to steal it.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 23, 2012)

hector @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Wed Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > if more devs move to Mach 5 and other copy protected formats, I'm sure NI will "get religion" because money talks, and BS walks.
> ...



I have a background in seeing and helping VI products developed. But I also have a background in negotiating. I repeat: money talks BS walks. Your position is accept the status quo and keep developing for a format that's been cracked. Go for cool, accept piracy. Thus your position, as I read it, is maintain status quo, don't break the circle.

In short - don't rock the boat.

With a piracy rate of 1:13, sales to piracy as reported by NVA, the boat is rocked. Time for a change by devs.

I gave 3 choices from which independent devs must choose from. They do or they do not.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 23, 2012)

quantum7 @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Wed Nov 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Want to see change? Move off of Kontakt to a copy protected environment. Maybe you'll have less programming freedom initially, but you also should be making more money.
> ...



"MANY" is not statistically quantifiable. How many iLok, WIBU, & Synchrosoft keys in distribution are.

That's a place for business research to begin for each developer.


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## will_m (Nov 23, 2012)

I can only speak as a user but I have boycotted certain companies for using what I see as intrusive CP or inferior samplers etc. I think anything that penalizes loyal users is pretty unfair.

Obviously I don't want to see great developers go under from piracy but I think they need to find a way to not impact the current user base, the games industry has seen quite a backlash of late over such methods.

I'd really like to know though if any of the developers have any stats to back-up a conclusion of lots of lost sales? I don't really know any pro users that have pirated software, it always seems to be the people who just collect cool software to mess around with and they're not potential buyers.

I know how frustrating it is though, I've had my music pirated before but its hard to say whether it was lost sales or just people getting things for free because they could.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Nov 23, 2012)

will_m @ 23/11/2012 said:


> I don't really know any pro users that have pirated software, it always seems to be the people who just collect cool software to mess around with and they're not potential buyers.



It would be great if you took the time to read the previous posts in this thread before adding to it. You might find that your opinion would be changed, as many have stated that indeed many pros/professors use cracked software/libraries.


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## wst3 (Nov 24, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Thu Nov 22 said:


> gregjazz @ Thu Nov 22 said:
> 
> 
> > It's not worth losing legitimate customers by moving to a more limited platform just to use copy protection that promises to limit piracy.
> ...



Greg, you know I'm a big fan of your libraries, and I am strongly in the camp that says that each developer ought to be able to choose their own path! Sadly, in the Kontakt camp there is no path that includes copy protection.

I don't know if you use any of the Bela-D libraries, but I do. I really like Diva, and the Tenor, and Giovanni Ensemble. I'd love to see them updated to take advantage of Kontakt5. And I'd love to see the new libraries Frank developed.

But we aren't going to see any of those things until Engine gets scripting or Kontakt gets CP. 

We keep talking about tangible and intangible losses attributable to piracy. How much more tangible than Bela D Media no longer developing libraries do we really need? Here's a company that's been around for a long time, one of the first third party developers I can remember... and he can't do business with an expectation of a return on his investment.

As bad as that is, here's my real concern... eventually OrangeTree and others could follow suit... 

I am not going to tell you that you should use CP anymore than I am going to tell Frank to suck it up and forgo CP. You each have your own businesses, and you can run them anyway you wish. That's only fair, but what would be fairer would be if you both had a workable option to protect your products.

I hope this doesn't come off as critical to any developer... but I spent part of yesterday working with Giovanni again (it's been a while since I did anything with a choir), and it is just so cool! So I'm feeling a bit peevish about piracy right now - more so than usual<G>!


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## will_m (Nov 24, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 24th November 2012 said:


> will_m @ 23/11/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really know any pro users that have pirated software, it always seems to be the people who just collect cool software to mess around with and they're not potential buyers.
> ...



I did read the other posts, I posted what I did to add another side to the story and to try and see if there were any stats to back-up the piracy issues faced by developers. 

Otherwise its just one side saying that piracy is a huge issue that is losing devs lots of money and another reporting it doesn't seem to be a lost sales as the people downloading were never potential buyers. I'm not condoning piracy either way but I think there needs to be some idea of what the issue is actually doing before it can be solved.

For instance are people pirating because of cost, sake of ease, try something out or even just because they can? 

There does seem to be a mindset of 'I don't need to pay for this if I don't make money from it' which seems to be mainly from the home enthusiast who wants to use all the latest toys but wouldn't pay for it because there are never going to see a return from it. I'm not saying its right at all just suggesting that there needs to be some research done into what is a lost sale and what isn't.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 24, 2012)

Shall we post personal bank statements and sales reports on a public forum until you are satisfied or would you rather just take us at our word? But let us just pretend that there is absolutely no lost revenue to speak of -

Should we turn a blind eye to piracy rings that sell our commercial sample libraries?
Should we turn a blind eye to piracy rings that generate profit via stolen goods?
Should we turn a blind eye to piracy rings that generate profit via monthly fees - so their members can download our commercial sample libraries?
Should we just assume that not a single individual from thousands downloading per day would ever stand to turn a profit with high-end sample libraries?

I am beyond fed up with badly informed “They would not buy it anyway” and “It’s just hobbyists” dialogue. “They would not buy it anyway” does not make it right and since when is the bedroom musician/hobbyist an acceptable market to compete with and/or lose to piracy? I can say with certainty not every single user I have accumulated over 10 years is scoring feature films. 

Profits lost or gained - theft is a crime and we have a right to protect our creative works. 

-----

Gentlemen, 

I have nothing more to contribute to this thread but I do thank you for the opportunity to speak.


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 24, 2012)

Thanks for all your contributions here, Francis. You're a terrific developer, you were great with me a year or two back with some issues I had.

Surely the current logjam can't last forever. Either NI will sort themselves out or someone else will step up to the plate with a workable solution. Commerce abhors a vacuum. So looking forward to your eventual return, when the time and circumstances are right.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 24, 2012)

Engine has legato scripting built in, so I'm told.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 24, 2012)

> I did read the other posts, I posted what I did to add another side to the story and to try and see if there were any stats to back-up the piracy issues faced by developers.



The CineSamples lawsuit posted stats.
http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/03/11/california-federal-district-court-awards-cinesamples-llc-379050-in-digital-piracy-suit/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/03/11/calif ... racy-suit/)

Kyle at Nine Volt Audio posted stats.
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28520



> I am beyond fed up with badly informed “They would not buy it anyway” and “It’s just hobbyists” dialogue.


This is stealing because you can. And trying to discount it by 20% just creates a grey zone.

_Thou shalt not steal_ is a standard that protects people. And in this case, developers.


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## Ben H (Nov 24, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Nov 18 said:


> this should be a thread to search for practical, workable solutions. I'm sure many of us here would like to help in some way, if it would genuinely make a difference.
> 
> In the 9VA thread, 4 different ideas were proposed. There may well be more, but it's a start. Here's a brief summary:
> 
> ...



Ok here are my thoughts and please don't take these in any way as a knockdown:

1. As has been stated only the original creator can do this... although I'm not sure if someone could be appointed as a legal represetative to act on someone's behalf?

This would have a small impact I suppose, and perhaps to some devs it is better than standing idly by and doing nothing.

2. I am invested in the Kontakt platform now, both financially AND emotionally. I am absolutely NOT going to switch platforms and waste my time learning a whole new sampler just for the sake of a developer... or 2... or 10.

Kontakt is the most mature of any of the samplers. It is also mostly stable, mostly bug free (within reason) and has the most features of any of the samplers available.

So sorry developers, but I am not going to just walk away because you decide to change.

BTW: ENGINE has no dongle as erronously stated in the OP. 

Also, just because it has not yet been cracked does not mean that it wont be cracked either. It is just not as popular a target as Kontakt is (for bragging rights amongst the crackers).

3. Spreading fake releases also would not help, I think. 

Word would spread pretty quickly that the app was a fake as they often have a comments section or thumbsup/thumbsdown ratings like Facebook. So this would be a waste of time IMHO.

Also, in most countries it is actually illegal to spread virii and infect people's machines, regardless of whether they are pirates and scum or not.

4. I also think public education would not work

Sure you might win a few converts that way, but not many. I mean take a look at DVD and music piracy ads. They haven't stopped people from downloading movies or music one iota. 

Most people are actually aware that what they are doing is wrong, but they live by a different moral code and are going to behave how they like anyway.

What the solution is... I don't have an answer.

*EDIT:* BTW stealing something because you can't afford it and wouldn't have purchased it anyway is a really weak argument.

I can't afford a car, but if I stole one took it for a drive then my ass would be hauled off to jail. And before anyone tries to argue semantics about how a car is a physical object, while software is not... either way we are talking about depriving developers/manufacturers of their income, which is exactly what piracy does.

Let's not water it down and say that it is a victimless crime because noone gets hurt. All the devs on here that ARE hurting from piracy are proof otherwise.


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 24, 2012)

Never mind.


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## will_m (Nov 24, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ 24th November 2012 said:


> The CineSamples lawsuit posted stats.
> http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/03/11/california-federal-district-court-awards-cinesamples-llc-379050-in-digital-piracy-suit/ (http://soniccontrol.tv/2012/03/11/calif ... racy-suit/)
> 
> Kyle at Nine Volt Audio posted stats.
> http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28520



Thanks for the links peter, I was more looking for a stat that can relate the number of pirated copies with loss in sales, for example a developer has their work put on a torrent site and then sales drop hugely sort of thing.

When my band had our music put on torrent sites we actually had an increase in sales, I guess from more awareness or maybe it was just luck. I'd be interested to know if the developers have seen huge changes in sales once something gets pirated.

On a happier note for my first black friday purchase I got the 8dio hybrid bundle, this thing is going to take some restraint not to overuse it...


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## Ed (Nov 24, 2012)

Ben H @ Sat Nov 24 said:


> *EDIT:* BTW stealing something because you can't afford it and wouldn't have purchased it anyway is a really weak argument.
> 
> I can't afford a car, but if I stole one took it for a drive then my ass would be hauled off to jail. And before anyone tries to argue semantics about how a car is a physical object, while software is not... either way we are talking about depriving developers/manufacturers of their income, which is exactly what piracy does.



Depends on how you are using the comparison, but if you;re talking about actual loses then a physical object compared to copied software really does make a big difference. It doesnt affect actual loses if some 14 year old downloads a torrent of Hollywood Strings, it does if he steals a TV from an electrical store. There is very little outgoings once you finish producing your software, not so when you produce a physical product. If that physical object is stolen, whether or not the guy would have ever paid for it is irrelevant. If a 14 year old downloads a $100,000 worth of software its not the same as if he stole a $100,000 worth of TVs, ipods and mobile phones. Software developers need to look at their actual loses, Ive said this over and over again. The store owner is now down $60,000 or whatever the markup price was. Did you see a slump in sales when the torrent appeared? If yes, thats solid evidence that torrents affected your sales. If there was no slump, there is no verifiable loss in sales, its just a pain in the ass thinking about people using your product that didnt pay for it.


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## Peter Alexander (Nov 24, 2012)

> When my band had our music put on torrent sites we actually had an increase in sales, I guess from more awareness or maybe it was just luck. I'd be interested to know if the developers have seen huge changes in sales once something gets pirated.



This is actually a double-edged situation for band marketing since you're not likely to get airplay on "terrestrial" radio. As a result, this kind of piracy _can_ for some function like the new radio.

Here's a positive example I found on www.miklosrozsa.org where they avidly promote YouTube postings.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rozsa&aq=f


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## Daryl (Nov 25, 2012)

will_m @ Sun Nov 25 said:


> When my band had our music put on torrent sites we actually had an increase in sales, I guess from more awareness or maybe it was just luck. I'd be interested to know if the developers have seen huge changes in sales once something gets pirated.


All that means is that your original marketing plan was bad. There was nothing to stop you giving away copies of your music and asking for donations in the first place.

The other thing to remember is that whilst you may feel that this has helped you make a few sales, this is a far cry from a record company that has already spent £100k+ on their product. Artists have sometimes said that they were quite happy for their records to be pirated because it raised awareness of their music, forgetting that they never paid the costs in the first place; they got a large advance, so whilst they lost nothing, the record company stood to lose everything.

D


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## Arbee (Nov 25, 2012)

I think the size of the challenge is self-evident in the variety of responses to this thread.

Some are happy to help minimise piracy through any means, i.e. using iLok etc, others are happy to help but only if they are not inconvenienced by copy protection. The solution has to satisfy both of these views.

Some believe pirating software equates to stealing physical items, others believe the theft of digial product is a lesser crime since there are no direct monetory losses with each theft, "only" lost sales, and maybe not as many lost sales as people think since thieves are not necessarily potential buyers. In its more extreme form I hear the same rationale that I here for illegal music downloads - "it's actually good marketing because some thieves may eventually purchase if your product is good enough and cheap enough". Yep, maybe, and I know folk who approach music downloading that way and do buy eventually to support the musician if they really like it. It's a kind of "try before you buy" controlled smugly by the end consumer instead of the manufacturer/developer.

So. on a scale of 1 to 10 it seems that stealing a physical product is a 10 and stealing digital product is about a 5. Where/how do we go forward from here then? Did we value digital products more when they came on a CD/DVD because there was a tangible product you could touch?


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## tsonic (Nov 25, 2012)

Arbee @ Sun Nov 25 said:


> So. on a scale of 1 to 10 it seems that stealing a physical product is a 10 and stealing digital product is about a 5. Where/how do we go forward from here then? Did we value digital products more when they came on a CD/DVD because there was a tangible product you could touch?



Yes.
Exactly.
If it's not 'real' it's not stealing (not my view!).
Itunes is successful because its built around a physical product (ipod) that integrates perfectly, so the 'convenience' of a smooth process/system in which to get your music outweighs the hassle of using torrent sites etc (well...at least to many anyway - I'm assuming that's the thought behind it).
This is why I suggested my idea earlier - if everything's in one place (convenient and efficient) - safely stored online - all licenses under one system - and of course huge discounts/offers etc , it's surely got to make a lot of sense to a lot of people - if for no other reason than the time and hassle it saves in organizing/registering your libraries, let alone the other benefits. 
I won't labour the point any more though (unless questions arise) - I sense my posts may be viewed as being more than a little unrealistic...wouldn't the first time...and it may in fact be so anyway - certainly a mammoth undertaking.


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## Daryl (Nov 25, 2012)

tsonic @ Sun Nov 25 said:


> Arbee @ Sun Nov 25 said:
> 
> 
> > So. on a scale of 1 to 10 it seems that stealing a physical product is a 10 and stealing digital product is about a 5. Where/how do we go forward from here then? Did we value digital products more when they came on a CD/DVD because there was a tangible product you could touch?
> ...


It's doesn't matter what your view is. It doesn't belong to you, so you have no say. :wink: 

D


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## SergeD (Nov 25, 2012)

Hello... Houston... nobody cares about what people say here. What people care about is their Facebook and Twitter image.

There is as company in my country which once, tried to stop a craftsman using "Oasis" as a product name. Within one day, the Facebook gossip put the company in such a situation that they backed away, ceased proceedings against the craftsman and worked hard to restore their brand image. 

http://www.prorec.com/2012/04/watermarking-the-answer-to-the-digital-piracy-problem/ (http://www.prorec.com/2012/04/watermark ... y-problem/)

A public WM Reader (with a protocol stamp technology) is only one step over. Of course it would not divulge phone number, address and credit card number. The Studio + Website names, as example, would be enough to discourage pirates to use illegal copies. No artist would be enough stupid to release a song having 5 illicit watermark identities. On the other hand, the studio would appreciate the free advertisement provided by the WM. The public WM software would be available to anybody.

You can't stop the heart of piracy, but you can stop bleeding with Facebook and Twitter.


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## musicformedia (Nov 25, 2012)

Hi all. Two ideas, not sure how viable they are.

1. Create some very simple software that will allow you to enter the links into it, and it will generate a dmca notice for you and send it off to the file hosting company. I know a guy on the envato forums created his own one before, but I can't find it now. It would save a lot of time in reporting links.
2. As all developers are in the same boat, why not all band together and create a new development company together? I'm sure if the top 10 developers banded together and had a 10% share in the company, they could create something with all the tools/abilities they required, or even pay a company to create one from scratch? 

Seems like by yourselves you can't do much to affect the problem, but if you all joined together, you could find the solution.


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## wst3 (Nov 25, 2012)

Option #1 makes a lot of sense... I'd be happy to help with coding it if there is any interest. It might even be automatable...

1) kick off a search (there's even a Google API)
2) generate email to the owner of the link

I may be missing something, but it seems simple enough.


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## Francis Belardino (Nov 25, 2012)

wst3 @ Sun Nov 25 said:


> I may be missing something...



You are and so are they. I can speak from experience that a upload of a single product can generate links into the hundreds per day. Never mind when you see 5 products going up at once but as single links by single individuals. So now developers have to devote time to spy games? That means less time devoted to creative things like products!

These links must be sought out on countless blogs, piracy pages, Facebook links, newsgroup postings and Twitter feeds. Not to mention the members only clubs that hide links or ask that you PM them or first contribute with an upload of your own. A reup means you will start all over again. Keep in mind that most DMCA request take up to 48 hours for a takedown. That’s plenty of time for a few thousand downloads. Damage is already done. Though some here question said damage.

There is no solution but stopping it at the source. Cut off the head and the rest of the snake shall die!

OK _that_ was my last post. lol

ps: No answer? I'm not surprised.

Should we turn a blind eye to piracy rings that sell our commercial sample libraries? 
Should we turn a blind eye to piracy rings that generate profit via stolen goods? 
Should we turn a blind eye to piracy rings that generate profit via monthly fees - so their members can download our commercial sample libraries? 
Should we just assume that not a single individual from thousands downloading per day would ever stand to turn a profit with high-end sample libraries?


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## KMuzzey (Nov 25, 2012)

FWIW: I have a lot of music that gets pirated and found myself spending the first hour of every morning sending DMCA takedowns to various blogs & filelocker sites. Probably not the best way to start your day, every day. (I'd use google alerts and "last 24-hours" searches to find new instances of piracy)

About 2 months ago I started using a service called MUSO that basically just scans the web, known piracy sites & filelocker sites, for your content. I thought I was pretty exhaustive with my own searches, but was surprised to find how many results they came up with. And because they have relationships in place with the filelocker sites, when you send a takedown request the material comes down (usually) within an hour or two, vs the 24-72 hours it takes when I'd send a letter myself. You just log in to your dashboard, all the new instances are there, you click "send takedown" and you're done. The idea is that it quickly removes your content en masse from the places most likely to be hosting it, so the individual searching for it becomes frustrated at not finding it, then either gives up or buys it. I don't know how many other services there are like this out there, but this could be a good short-term solution for some devs who want to invest in just 1 or 2 months' worth of service (and it's not expensive at all) to basically do a one-time purge of their pirated content. Sort of like a reboot. 

Just my $.02. I've been happy with them so far. It's been effective.

Kerry


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## noiseboyuk (Nov 25, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Sun Nov 25 said:


> FWIW: I have a lot of music that gets pirated and found myself spending the first hour of every morning sending DMCA takedowns to various blogs & filelocker sites. Probably not the best way to start your day, every day. (I'd use google alerts and "last 24-hours" searches to find new instances of piracy)
> 
> About 2 months ago I started using a service called MUSO that basically just scans the web, known piracy sites & filelocker sites, for your content. I thought I was pretty exhaustive with my own searches, but was surprised to find how many results they came up with. And because they have relationships in place with the filelocker sites, when you send a takedown request the material comes down (usually) within an hour or two, vs the 24-72 hours it takes when I'd send a letter myself. You just log in to your dashboard, all the new instances are there, you click "send takedown" and you're done. The idea is that it quickly removes your content en masse from the places most likely to be hosting it, so the individual searching for it becomes frustrated at not finding it, then either gives up or buys it. I don't know how many other services there are like this out there, but this could be a good short-term solution for some devs who want to invest in just 1 or 2 months' worth of service (and it's not expensive at all) to basically do a one-time purge of their pirated content. Sort of like a reboot.
> 
> ...



Sounds pretty positive - any devs willing to comment if they've tried this?


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## wst3 (Nov 25, 2012)

Frank... I agree that as soon as the product is uploaded it is game over, you can never stuff the genie back in the bottle.

I also agree that sending out the DMCA notices is only going to be marginally useful, but for now, if it can be automated, it seems better than nothing.

But I'm not a library developer, so I really can't say for sure... so I bow to the opinions of developers here.

Making a library - or any software for the matter - crack-proof is impossible. But, a better deterrent will slow down all but the most 'ambitious' crackers, and probably stop some casual thieves.

We should NOT turn a blind eye, but I'm at a loss as how to solve the problem. Copy protection built into the sample players is a really good first step, but we are at the player developer's mercy on that one.


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## Mike Greene (Nov 25, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Sun Nov 25 said:


> About 2 months ago I started using a service called MUSO . . .


Thanks for this info, Kerry. This sounds very positive.

Knock on wood, Realivox isn't yet on any torrent sites, although there are lots of sites (usually pay sites) claiming to have it. They don't have it either, because the file sizes are all wrong. Still, I'm going to enlist MUSO anyway and see how it does at eliminating the bogus listings. It will give me a little more peace of mind if it ever _does_ get uploaded.


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## hector (Nov 27, 2012)

while a company MUSO seem a good idea, i don't quite know whether i can to trust them yet.

they're a company that makes the money from dipping their toes in the piracy scene and finding and removing your illegally uploaded product? what's is the incentive for them *not* to pretend they didn't know something was false positive, or create these fake uploads?


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## KMuzzey (Nov 27, 2012)

To be clear, MUSO didn't approach me, I found them. And while I thought I was thorough in my own searching and takedown notices, in a period of 8 weeks MUSO has found about 2000 instances of pirate downloads of my music that I didn't find. And when they list a link in your dashboard, you actually see the link itself, so you can visit it to confirm that it exists. 

Now that about 8 weeks have passed, the results each day are fewer, which is sort of the idea: that they scrub the web of your unauthorized content to the point where people stop trying to find it, or stop uploading it, and just go ahead and 1) buy it or 2) move on.

I think the conspiracy theories are a bit much. I've been happy with their service, and while it isn't perfect, it's pretty awesome. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you find a useful tool, use it.

Kerry


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 27, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Tue Nov 27 said:


> Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you find a useful tool, use it.
> 
> Kerry



This should be in everyone's signature, Kerry.


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## Hans Adamson (Nov 29, 2012)

Does Engine offer iLok CP?

Thanks,
Hans


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## spectrum (Nov 30, 2012)

Looks like sample developer Loopmasters is using and endorsing the MUSO service. Seems like a very positive idea and approach to me. 

Limiting access in a more automated way and making the illegal experience a hassle for pirates with loads of dead links etc makes the "whack-a-mole" aspect of the problem a whole lot more feasible. Uses tech to "fight fire with fire" 

Definitely worth looking into.


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## Freesamples (Nov 30, 2012)

So... Again... I was right. There is no software protection, which is unhackable. As soon as product became popular it's hacked. Some people here were saying that Engine offer great protection, etc... I say - Engine sucks comparing to Kontakt. And now it's cracked. And every library works there even better than in original Engine. I have some Engine libraries and tried to use them in this "unlocked" Engine. And finally it does not crash my DAW. WTF, Engine developers? Why pirates make your software better while you can't do this?

iLok2 and Syncrosoft is the only way to fight piracy. Period!

P.S. I understand that my post is kinda tough and provocative. Sorry about that. But it's food for thought.


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## KMuzzey (Dec 1, 2012)

spectrum @ Fri Nov 30 said:


> Limiting access in a more automated way and making the illegal experience a hassle for pirates with loads of dead links etc makes the "whack-a-mole" aspect of the problem a whole lot more feasible. Uses tech to "fight fire with fire"
> 
> Definitely worth looking into.



When I talked to the MUSO guys, that was basically the endgame of using their service: the idea is that they collect and then scrub so many results so quickly, that all at once your stuff gets removed from everywhere. The end result to someone trying to pirate it is that one part of the group just stops trying and gives up, and the person who really wants it will (hopefully) end up buying it. The other plus for me is that because they communicate directly with all of the filelocker sites, a good percentage of takedown notices are actually addressed within *minutes* -- not kidding, MINUTES -- and some of the other ones might take an hour or two. Some of the more obscure sites can take the usual turnaround time, 24-48 hours. But your dashboard shows the status of each takedown. It's really inexpensive, and if you have content out there that's being pirated, it's worth the cost of a 1-month campaign just to do a mass scrubbing of all the pirate sites out there. 

Kerry


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## SergeD (Dec 1, 2012)

MUSO would add watermark tracking to their actual service and that would be a serious ninja fighter against piracy !


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## TARI (Dec 1, 2012)

Freesamples @ Sat Dec 01 said:


> WTF, Engine developers? Why pirates make your software better while you can't do this?
> 
> iLok2 and Syncrosoft is the only way to fight piracy. Period!



Maybe because tons people pay small amounts of money to support crackers work? In many warez websites you have to pay to download libraries...they are getting a lot of money with other's work.

I don't think it works better, just exactly the same.

But I am glad to hear it is working fine. Now everybody knows what to do. I will keep making libraries


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## mpalenik (Dec 1, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Sun Nov 25 said:


> About 2 months ago I started using a service called MUSO that basically just scans the web, known piracy sites & filelocker sites, for your content.



Just out of curiosity, has the increase in sales you've seen over that two month period enough to cover the cost of the MUSO service?


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## Francis Belardino (Dec 1, 2012)

TARI @ Sat Dec 01 said:


> Maybe because tons people pay small amounts of money to support crackers work? In many warez websites you have to pay to download libraries...they are getting a lot of money with other's work.
> 
> I don't think it works better, just exactly the same.
> 
> But I am glad to hear it is working fine. Now everybody knows what to do. I will keep making libraries



Absolutely appalled to read the news. I am so glad to have washed my hands of this nonsense for now. There is big money in piracy but some continue to promote that it is just silly kids that would not buy it anyway. Tari, no lowlife hacker could ever dream to hold a candle to your talents. Always do what you feel is in your best interest and let no one say otherwise. Take good care my friend.


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## KMuzzey (Dec 1, 2012)

mpalenik @ Sat Dec 01 said:


> KMuzzey @ Sun Nov 25 said:
> 
> 
> > About 2 months ago I started using a service called MUSO that basically just scans the web, known piracy sites & filelocker sites, for your content.
> ...



I don't know yet... iTunes sales data lags by 45 days from month-end. I also write under a pseudonym (The Candlepark Stars) which is the stuff that gets pirated the most -- and that's the stuff that, within 2 days of an album coming out, is up on dozens of sites all at once. Since it only costs me about $25/month for the service, it would only take 4 album sales to make up that amount, and ultimately the fee I pay them is a tax write-off. So I'm not coming at it from the standpoint of "I want to increase my sales by stopping piracy" -- I'm coming at it from "I want people to stop taking it." Increased sales would be a bonus though. 

Kerry


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## Freesamples (Dec 1, 2012)

TARI @ Sat Dec 01 said:


> Maybe because tons people pay small amounts of money to support crackers work? In many warez websites you have to pay to download libraries...they are getting a lot of money with other's work.
> 
> I don't think it works better, just exactly the same.
> 
> But I am glad to hear it is working fine. Now everybody knows what to do. I will keep making libraries



TARI, all Engine libraries I have is yours and they are simply unusable for me because of Engine, though they sound awesome. I was thinking that you moved on Engine because of protection, but as you can see there is no software protection that is unhackable. Isn't it better for sales to move libraries to Kontakt with its gigantic user base?


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## wst3 (Dec 1, 2012)

KMuzzey @ Sat Dec 01 said:


> <snippity> So I'm not coming at it from the standpoint of "I want to increase my sales by stopping piracy" -- I'm coming at it from "I want people to stop taking it." Increased sales would be a bonus though.



I applaud you!

I'm sorry you have to deal with piracy...


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## ek (Dec 2, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ November 18th 2012 said:


> *4. Get directly involved in public education*



Grown up from a pile of PCs running pirate Windows OS, I think point 4: public education is just what we have to do to fight against pirates. I will regard it as an honour to help the developers here having troubles like Nine Volt Audio. 

I'm now translating the post by Kyle in the COMMERCIAL Announcements section to my language, and I've done a half now. (I'm sorry that I really don't have much time though it's not such a long post... but I'll just keep translating.) Maybe the article will be up in some Chinese forums next Sunday... :D 

Hope my translation will really help!

Edit: Done now! It's up on Audiobar.net. :D


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## kitekrazy (Dec 13, 2012)

Very odd that last night I was looking for a better deal on Sample Magic's Sunset Sessions and on google the 1st two pages were nothing but sites to download it for free. The product doesn't even show up in shopping search.


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## Francis Belardino (Dec 23, 2012)

Fulll view:
http://www.beladmedia.com/full.jpg

Well, now isn't this just lovely? A new and massive upload today. Our web site is currently seeing approximately 100-150 crawlers per hour but there is no increase in sales. Hmm? Oh well, 'they would not buy it anyway' so I'll just shut the site down.

*MERRY CHRISTMAS!*


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## SergeD (Dec 23, 2012)

kitekrazy @ Thu Dec 13 said:


> Very odd that last night I was looking for a better deal on Sample Magic's Sunset Sessions and on google the 1st two pages were nothing but sites to download it for free. The product doesn't even show up in shopping search.



As long as search SEO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_optimization) is not ruled against piracy, it's an useless battle.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 23, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Sun Dec 23 said:


> Fulll view:
> http://www.beladmedia.com/full.jpg
> 
> Well, now isn't this just lovely? A new and massive upload today. Our web site is currently seeing approximately 100-150 crawlers per hour but there is no increase in sales. Hmm? Oh well, 'they would not buy it anyway' so I'll just shut the site down.
> ...



Francis, I didn't know you had a new product (or bundle) out, I guess it would take time for word to spread among legit customers.

I hope you find a solution that works for your great libs, I really do.


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## Francis Belardino (Dec 23, 2012)

It is not a bundle we released. It is bundled piracy! I have the ultimate protection in place. I've stopped producing.

Best to all always,


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 23, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ Sun Dec 23 said:


> It is not a bundle we released. It is bundled piracy! I have the ultimate protection in place. I've stopped producing.
> 
> Best to all always,



What a shame that it comes to that for such a talented developer.


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 23, 2012)

Urgh, I obviously didn't understand your first post, Francis. Like I say, I hope a solution / format comes along soon that you are comfortable with, you're one of the best developers out there.


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## Aaron Dirk (Dec 23, 2012)

I'm currently sitting on unreleased libraries
My last release wasn't out of the red before it was pirated
You know as soon as it's out there as traffic sky rockets and sales plummet.

The argument that they wouldn't buy it anyways isn't quite true
As that figure also includes "Why buy it, if it's free!? Thanks!", it seems nearly everyone loves free.
And once it's pirated, it becomes an out of control cancer, and a death sentence to the library.

It's very sad and very true

Libraries aren't free to make, and they also involve a lot of time to produce. It takes a lot of passion to make libraries.
I've been in this biz many years, and pirating isn't hardly new, but it has gotten so out hand, it's beyond ridiculous. 
Why bother releasing it, if it can't even pay for itself?


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## germancomponist (Dec 23, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Dec 23 said:


> Francis Belardino @ Sun Dec 23 said:
> 
> 
> > It is not a bundle we released. It is bundled piracy! I have the ultimate protection in place. I've stopped producing.
> ...



+1


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## Caedwallon (Dec 24, 2012)

Francis Belardino @ 23rd December said:


> Fulll view:
> http://www.beladmedia.com/full.jpg
> 
> Well, now isn't this just lovely? A new and massive upload today. Our web site is currently seeing approximately 100-150 crawlers per hour but there is no increase in sales. Hmm? Oh well, 'they would not buy it anyway' so I'll just shut the site down.
> ...



That's absolutely depressing. :( Guess I'm staying grumpy for the rest of my holidays. Imo, dongles seem to be far superior in curbing piracy than watermarking or other passive means of control.

Unfortunately, this maxim is undeniable: what one man can invent, another can discover. (Unless you come up with alien technology, in which case I'll be compelled to ask why you're still on this bloody planet.)


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## KMuzzey (Dec 27, 2012)

At the risk of sounding like I'm a shill for Muso - which I'm totally not! - they have a SEO (search engine optimization) tab in their dashboard that seeks out links on Google, and you can submit takedowns that way as well. And if you find links that aren't showing in your dashboard, you just click the "enter new link here" and it'll log it and send the notice that way. I think a service like this can have diminishing returns over time, but it could be a great way for developers to scrub the web of existing results if you were to invest in the service (or a similar service) for just 1-3 months.

Kerry


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## Ian_M (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm rather new here so please forgive me if what i'm suggesting is not possible. I know a lot of composers who pirate their software simply because they are students and cannot afford to pay the money for a good sample library. Has anyone ever produced a library with decent quality targeted at beginners? EWQL was the closest thing I found and it is still a few hundred dollars.


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## KEnK (Dec 28, 2012)

Ian_M @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> I'm rather new here so please forgive me if what i'm suggesting is not possible. I know a lot of composers who pirate their software simply because they are students and cannot afford to pay the money for a good sample library. Has anyone ever produced a library with decent quality targeted at beginners? EWQL was the closest thing I found and it is still a few hundred dollars.


You won't be getting any sympathy here. 

Example- 
If you're a guitar student you have to spend money on an instrument.
Guitars are cheap compared to other instruments.

A few hundred dollars is already very cheap.

k


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## radec (Dec 28, 2012)

Ian_M @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> I'm rather new here so please forgive me if what i'm suggesting is not possible. I know a lot of composers who pirate their software simply because they are students and cannot afford to pay the money for a good sample library. Has anyone ever produced a library with decent quality targeted at beginners? EWQL was the closest thing I found and it is still a few hundred dollars.


"I'm rather new here so please forgive me if what i'm suggesting is not possible. I know a lot of racers who steal their car simply because they are students and cannot afford to pay the money for a good car. Has anyone ever produced a car with decent quality targeted at beginners? 1994 MX5 was the closest thing I found and it is still a few thousand dollars."

hope ya see how ridiculous ya justification of being a student and not able to afford luxury or pro items is


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## wst3 (Dec 28, 2012)

I'm sorry to report that your justification/excuse has been posted here before - too many times, and it has yet to elicit the desired response.

It tends to annoy the many folks here who have started with the tools that they could afford, and worked their way up to the tools that they wanted.

Stealing is stealing - it is not enough to say "gee, I can't afford it", it really is that simple.

The second half of your questions is almost as common, and equally indefensible. By your logic someone kind person ought to go spend a ton of money to develop a library, and then price it so that you and your fellow students can afford it. Hey, no big deal that it means he can't afford to feed himself right?

All of this is even more insulting today because there is a wealth of free - as in free beer - libraries of remarkable quality, and all you have to do is search, or read this forum, to find them.

Seriously, do yourself a favor, pick up GPO or one of the other entry level libraries and develop your chops. Add to it the free instruments like the Pocket Cello, and the freebies offered by almost ever commercial developer. You'll be surprised at what you can accomplish, and what you'll learn!


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## quantum7 (Dec 28, 2012)

Bela D Media.....it still kills me that he is not developing anymore. It seems so hard to believe that with the exceptional quality of his libs that he couldn't make a profit.... even with piracy, but obviously his accounting tells him otherwise. Anthology and Diva have been absolutely invaluable to me over the years.....especially Diva lately. If he starts up again I promise to buy the first product he releases......no matter what format it is released in....just to support him.


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## Francis Belardino (Dec 28, 2012)

This is a very kind statement and I greatly appreciate the continued support. Speaking solely for myself, I did state previously that the issue of piracy is not simply a matter of profits lost or gained. Sales will always come in because of the few - the proud - the legitimate. (A play on the Marines motto). It is a matter of principal and how ultimately an investment in time, talent and capital lands in the hands of those who do not have a right to said time, talent and capital.

*Happy New Year*


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## RiffWraith (Dec 28, 2012)

Ian_M @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> I know a lot of composers who pirate their software simply because they are students and cannot afford to pay the money for a good sample library.



So, if I am a student, and can't afford to pay the money for a good computer to put those sample libs on, is it ok if I steal one? Are you actually saying it's ok to steal a computer if you can't afford one? If no, then why is it ok to steal a sample lib if you can't afford it? If yes, what would you say if I broke into your house and stole your computer? Would that be ok with you?


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## Chriss Ons (Dec 28, 2012)

To Francis: truly disheartening to read all this. Hope you will get compensated somehow. 
Happy holidays nevertheless.


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## wst3 (Dec 30, 2012)

A bit of good news perhaps... so I'm thinking about adding a 'baked in' library, like Symphobia or Albion, and I was looking for reviews and videos. In all three cases (Albion, Orchestral Essentials, and Symphobia) my Google search did not turn up a single download link in the first three pages. 

now I am not an expert in finding illegal downloads, but not too long ago it seemed that you didn't need to be... so maybe something changed recently?

This could also be some weird twist of fate, and the searches will turn out differently tomorrow, but for now I choose to be optimistic.

(except how sick is it that I'd notice the lack of download sites?)


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## Guy Rowland (Dec 30, 2012)

wst3 @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> A bit of good news perhaps... so I'm thinking about adding a 'baked in' library, like Symphobia or Albion, and I was looking for reviews and videos. In all three cases (Albion, Orchestral Essentials, and Symphobia) my Google search did not turn up a single download link in the first three pages.
> 
> now I am not an expert in finding illegal downloads, but not too long ago it seemed that you didn't need to be... so maybe something changed recently?
> 
> ...



I'd love it if that were true, Bill, but I see only very limited progress. I just typed Famous Sample Library into google (FSL) and got a Pirate Bay link on page three. Worse, on P1 I got the "searches related to" suggestion of "FSL crack". Adding the word "download" to my search - a perfectly legitimate phrase - produced a hacked version on the third link of p1.

Still a long, long way for Google to go.


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## Francis Belardino (Dec 31, 2012)

Firstly, Google defaults its search to ALL TIME. Change this to 24 HOURS or PAST WEEK or 30 DAYS and you will be flooded with such links. This morning I emailed a friend with my condolences. His player of choice was recently hacked and now his entire product line is up. There is no solution but stopping piracy at the source (blocking the share via dongle). Now of course, they are still dimwits who wish to state this will not cut into profits but, remember, it is very difficult to sell something that is easily available at no cost. I become increasingly happy to have washed my hands of this nonsense.


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## lee (Dec 31, 2012)

Just curious, what will you use your talents for when you've stopped producing sample libs, Francis? Sorry if this is too OT or personal.


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## Francis Belardino (Dec 31, 2012)

lee @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> Just curious, what will you use your talents for when you've stopped producing sample libs, Francis? Sorry if this is too OT or personal.



Yes, personal and off topic but, I certainly am not using my talents to offer free data to dirt bags. Fair enough?



Francis Belardino @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> Firstly, Google defaults its search to ALL TIME. Change this to 24 HOURS or PAST WEEK or 30 DAYS and you will be flooded with such links. This morning I emailed a friend with my condolences. His player of choice was recently hacked and now his entire product line is up. There is no solution but stopping piracy at the source (blocking the share via dongle). Now of course, they are still dimwits who wish to state this will not cut into profits but, remember, it is very difficult to sell something that is easily available at no cost. I become increasingly happy to have washed my hands of this nonsense.


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## wst3 (Dec 31, 2012)

dang, my optimism is short lived! I tried both suggestions, and sure enough, I found links. I don't know if they were real or not, but it is bad enough that they even exist!


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## SweenyNickat (Dec 31, 2012)

Ian_M @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> I'm rather new here so please forgive me if what i'm suggesting is not possible. I know a lot of composers who pirate their software simply because they are students and cannot afford to pay the money for a good sample library. Has anyone ever produced a library with decent quality targeted at beginners? EWQL was the closest thing I found and it is still a few hundred dollars.



For lots of sample libraries you can get educational discounts that make them really affordable, even for students.

First point: 
If you really wanted to get ahead as serious composer, you would be willing to invest money. And a few hundred dollars for virtual instruments are not that much to become part of the market. You don't have to buy land to build up factory buildings with expensive machines and employees you have to pay wages.
I can tell from my own experience (and I think everybody here also can) that those who are not willing to invest money in satisfying equipment will quickly not be able to stand the concurrence. 
This also has to do with your mentality of what you do. Those composers who are really convinced of what they do won't resist buying their equipment and investing money and time. Those who want to compose music but think "Yeah, I am the next John Williams, but those libraries aren't it worth for me to pay for" will never, NEVER EVER, make a professional and qualified composer out of themselves. 

Second point:
Even if the libraries would be much cheaper than now - why should you buy them for less money, when you even are not willing to pay less than a dollar for a song download?


My 2 cents
Yannick


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## Andrew Aversa (Dec 31, 2012)

Do keep in mind that many people also pirate libraries before buying them in order to demo/try them out. Everything we're talking about here is anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth, but I do know plenty of people who will pirate something to see if it works on their system, or if they like the sound, and they will buy it if they like it, or delete it if they don't.

I'm not defending such an action nor encouraging it, but if we are to better understand and mitigate piracy, we need to know what subgroups pirates fall into. Keep in mind that PC game piracy is a major issue and yet the company Valve is doing extraordinarily well by focusing on a mix of low prices, sales, ease of distribution, and centralized access, as opposed to potent DRM.

If you ask me, THAT is the solution, and not expensive dongles etc.


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 31, 2012)

zircon_st @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> I do know plenty of people who will pirate something to see if it works on their system, or if they like the sound, and they will buy it if they like it, or delete it if they don't.



Sadly, I do NOT know a lot of people like that.


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## Francis Belardino (Dec 31, 2012)

zircon_st @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> Do keep in mind that many people also pirate libraries before buying them in order to demo/try them out. Everything we're talking about here is anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth, but I do know plenty of people who will pirate something to see if it works on their system, or if they like the sound, and they will buy it if they like it, or delete it if they don't.
> 
> I'm not defending such an action nor encouraging it, but if we are to better understand and mitigate piracy, we need to know what subgroups pirates fall into. Keep in mind that PC game piracy is a major issue and yet the company Valve is doing extraordinarily well by focusing on a mix of low prices, sales, ease of distribution, and centralized access, as opposed to potent DRM.
> 
> If you ask me, THAT is the solution, and not expensive dongles etc.



Beveling and/or pitching the ‘try before you by’ theory is pure nonsense. That falls as long the lines of ‘we cannot afford it - that’s why we steal it’. I read such garbage daily as they are posting on Mac Book Pros sitting in recording studios. Why in God’s name would anyone purchase what they already have on Hard Drive? 

The latest outbreak of piracy is products of a recently hack player but every product made for it came with a demo mode. Your theory is smashed! 

Next, comparing the small world of sample libraries to video games is claptrap. I will say that if my bank account was a large as EA Games or Activision, I may be able to let some piracy slide. When you have 14 products produced and all 14 are one click away to no cost, it’s not a good thing and I don’t care if you or others think stropping piracy is to be priced well or other lame and inexperienced thoughts. If that was true, you would not see freebies and the like uploaded every day. I suppose on the plus side, our stuff must be damn good for all of it to have been stolen. It sure as hell is not because it is over priced. 

They only way to stop piracy is to block the share. East West and Avid, etc understand the reality of this epidemic. Until that is an option for me, I want no parts of the business. Sales still come in, as I have stated more than once, but it is a matter of principal. 

*Powerful systems for the pauper who auditioned the demo but opted for a hack instead of purchase.*

http://www.beladmedia.com/pirateposts.jpg
http://www.beladmedia.com/pirateposts2.jpg

*HAPPY NEW YEAR*


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## kb123 (Dec 31, 2012)

A couple of aspects that I don't believe have been covered yet, that are pretty standard for reducing fraudulent sales across the internet.

The number of pirates prepared to upload are actually a pretty small percentage. Cut off their ability to get the product and you cut down the chances of a library being pirated.

There is lots of technology available to help in this. Use high quality fraud databases that attach a risk profile to the purchaser. Block them before they can buy or at least make them provide additional information before allowing a sale. 

Perhaps consider using a payment processor other than Paypal, it may be more expensive, but you are then latching on to companies that specialise in fraud prevention. 

Lastly, don't give in and a Happy, healthy and prosperous New Year to all!


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## Francis Belardino (Dec 31, 2012)

. We use e-processing network.
. Our products are sold by world wide distributions as well as in house.
. All piracy begins with a legitimate purchase and then shared. 
. There is no software available to track and/or block bad intentions.
. The latest ups I am referring to are over 14GB in size (total).
. The MSRP for each is a mere $199
. Nothing will work but a block of the share.

The end!


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## kitekrazy (Jan 2, 2013)

zircon_st @ Mon Dec 31 said:


> Do keep in mind that many people also pirate libraries before buying them in order to demo/try them out. Everything we're talking about here is anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth, but I do know plenty of people who will pirate something to see if it works on their system, or if they like the sound, and they will buy it if they like it, or delete it if they don't.
> 
> I'm not defending such an action nor encouraging it, but if we are to better understand and mitigate piracy, we need to know what subgroups pirates fall into. Keep in mind that PC game piracy is a major issue and yet the company Valve is doing extraordinarily well by focusing on a mix of low prices, sales, ease of distribution, and centralized access, as opposed to potent DRM.
> 
> If you ask me, THAT is the solution, and not expensive dongles etc.



I partially agree. Demos would be nice like would ProjectSam use to do but there is a website you can now demo products.
Music software industry is not like the gaming industry. Game developers have the Xbox and PS platforms to fall back on. PC is still the top game platform and yet they will continue to develop because they probably don't get hurt as much as a music software developer. Besides Xbox and PS titles are pirated as well. 

There is no solution. It's a Catch 22. You can either lock your product down to where you lose sales or trust the enduser and risk more piracy. Large developers can afford the latter. 

There will never be a solution.


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## kitekrazy (Jan 2, 2013)

Caedwallon @ Mon Dec 24 said:


> Francis Belardino @ 23rd December said:
> 
> 
> > That's absolutely depressing. :( Guess I'm staying grumpy for the rest of my holidays. Imo, dongles seem to be far superior in curbing piracy than watermarking or other passive means of control.



It's not. Dongled products are a big invite to crack groups to see who can do it first.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 2, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> It's not. Dongled products are a big invite to crack groups to see who can do it first.



That's a tiresome and pointless argument, analogous to saying "why have a police force - it'll just encourage burglars to outwit them". The fact is - iLok hasn't been cracked after many years, despite the criminal fraternity's best efforts. All software solutions have. I don't really like that fact - iLok is a pain - but that's how it is.


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## kitekrazy (Jan 2, 2013)

Ian_M @ Fri Dec 28 said:


> I'm rather new here so please forgive me if what i'm suggesting is not possible. I know a lot of composers who pirate their software simply *because they are students and cannot afford to pay the money* for a good sample library. Has anyone ever produced a library with decent quality targeted at beginners? EWQL was the closest thing I found and it is still a few hundred dollars.



Interesting. There's was a lot of stuff I got with an EDU discount. (Windows 2000 $149, licences of XP Pro $85 each, Live $225 and so on and so on) 

Unfortunately they don't teach in college you can do as much or more with less. Unfortunately there is a lesson I have to learn many times that good work can still be done without great tools. 

People still make great stuff with GPO. I've heard some well produced midi files that sound great through onboard sound. (anyone remember that midi file that came in VI Magazine)

Unfortunately this stuff can be an addiction.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jan 2, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> zircon_st @ Mon Dec 31 said:
> 
> 
> > Do keep in mind that many people also pirate libraries before buying them in order to demo/try them out. Everything we're talking about here is anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth, but I do know plenty of people who will pirate something to see if it works on their system, or if they like the sound, and they will buy it if they like it, or delete it if they don't.
> ...



I think my point very much still stands. The music and software industries are VERY similar in that both involve digital products which can be easily pirated. That is the only important point of comparison. Many PC developers have complained about piracy and some have even claimed it has put them out of business. Massive companies like Ubisoft have attempted ever more intrusive DRM and yet the company that has been perhaps most successful, Valve, has instituted minimal DRM. They are successful because they have an incredible service platform, very low prices, and easy accessibility. They're competing with piracy and winning.

The solution is to focus on very high-quality products, with excellent service, updates, and good prices.


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## mk282 (Jan 2, 2013)

zircon_st @ 2.1.2013 said:


> The solution is to focus on very high-quality products, with excellent service, updates, and good prices.



...instead of losing time sending worthless DMCA takedown notices. Yes, this is correct. Focus on spending that time creating new products and customer support with generous updates. This has proven to be very effective (see Camel Audio, u-he, etc.).


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## Francis Belardino (Jan 3, 2013)

zircon_st @ Wed Jan 02 said:


> The solution is to focus on very high-quality products, with excellent service, updates, and good prices.



According to your sweeping statement, we are all overpriced, have terrible product and support. Had we only thought of your _solution_, we may not have our work pirated. Your method to fight this epidemic is the equivalent of putting your head under the covers and to pretend it will go away. Competitive pricing, customer care, and killer product are business basics but - it is not going to stop the upload! Sure, it will attract legitimate users but I trust you understand that has already been achieved?

*Uploaded 1/2/13* 
I guess your _solution_ to stop piracy does not work after all.


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## Leosc (Jan 3, 2013)

Francis,

He's talking about being successful, and competing with piracy, not _stopping_ it. Most major software devs are.


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## reddognoyz (Jan 3, 2013)

I am late to this party, but I am okay with a dongle, it's a minor inconvenience, and a major pain if it breaks, but I need good tools to work with and I pay for them gladly.


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## Taisto (Jan 3, 2013)

Well I had my dongle broken after one year of use. Gladly I only have one product that requires it and when someone develops such a product that doesn't require iLok, I'll switch immediately.
As a customer, I like to think that I'm paying for solutions - not problems.


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## Francis Belardino (Jan 3, 2013)

Leosc @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> Francis,
> 
> He's talking about being successful, and competing with piracy, not _stopping_ it. Most major software devs are.



First, we are to accept that _theses people would not buy it anyway_ nonsense but now we are competing with pirates for sale of our own products? This should not be acceptable to anyone. One does not have 10 years in this or any business if they are not successful - but that still is not a excuse to turn a blind eye to every product created being stolen or to make a blanket statement of the obvious as a solution. With all due respect, until solid protection is made available, I choose not to compete with criminals. There are far too many creative ways to make a living.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 3, 2013)

IMHO, this thread is now going round and round and round.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 3, 2013)

Francis Belardino @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> Leosc @ Thu Jan 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Francis,
> ...



And of course that's your choice, Francis. Every dev using using soft copy protection has to make this same assessment. I think the original point here is that for some devs, despite all the piracy, they are able to make their businesses work. This I think is also true for bands, film companies etc. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't lessen the crimes of those who are pirating, it does make everyone's life harder - but despite all this, it's still worthwhile for many (thank goodness for us users).


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## gsilbers (Jan 3, 2013)

Francis Belardino @ Sun Dec 23 said:


> Fulll view:
> http://www.beladmedia.com/full.jpg
> 
> Well, now isn't this just lovely? A new and massive upload today. Our web site is currently seeing approximately 100-150 crawlers per hour but there is no increase in sales. Hmm? Oh well, 'they would not buy it anyway' so I'll just shut the site down.
> ...



just a random question...

but you have a verizon ad on the lower left. and you could tell what ISP is hosting. 
couldnt you sue both ? 

kinda like if i had a bunch of my sweaters suddenly be stolen and sold by gap.

i know its not that easy. but im wondering why it could not be. basically translating the law to the real world. 
like google is having hits on it so its enabling/pushing illigal produts you could sue them. you dont care its imposible based on technology, its your product they should be able to figure it out. also, the web browsers and companies who enable all this , 
same with ISP, the company that creates the ad and ultimatly paying to sponsor illigal sales. etc etc. 

so instead of going after the kid who uploaded or the specific site , you go after everyone that enables this. like giong after a major who is in cojuts with drug dealers. or mafia guys who dont do the crimes but know about it (RICO) etc. 

im sure if bill gates didnt do this then there is a good reason. 

i just feel that all these big ass companies are getting away with murder by allowing illigal sales and content be used on the products they sell which they dont care because it just creates more demand for their products which are sold legally 
and they get money out of it. 

wouldnt a united front of software developers and music and film indutry start sueing the shit out of tech companies until they figure out a way of curbing piracy?


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## Francis Belardino (Jan 3, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> And of course that's your choice, Francis. Every dev using using soft copy protection has to make this same assessment. I think the original point here is that for some devs, despite all the piracy, they are able to make their businesses work. This I think is also true for bands, film companies etc. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't lessen the crimes of those who are pirating, it does make everyone's life harder - but despite all this, it's still worthwhile for many (thank goodness for us users).



My decision is based mainly on a matter of principal. The level of success we have generated over 10 years speaks for itself. This thread is entitled 'Sample library piracy - *solutions*' and the solution is solid copy protection such as what East West and Avid employ. Not to turn a blind eye and put your best foot forward. Not to believe they would not buy it anyway. Not to believe they just want to try before they buy. Not an acceptance of competing with criminals.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 3, 2013)

Francis Belardino @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Thu Jan 03 said:
> 
> 
> > And of course that's your choice, Francis. Every dev using using soft copy protection has to make this same assessment. I think the original point here is that for some devs, despite all the piracy, they are able to make their businesses work. This I think is also true for bands, film companies etc. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't lessen the crimes of those who are pirating, it does make everyone's life harder - but despite all this, it's still worthwhile for many (thank goodness for us users).
> ...



Yes, I agree that the iLok is the only solid preventative solution out there, but after 7 pages in this thread, I think two other ideas have their place as well:

1. The MUSO service. The best firefighting option.

2. Watermarking. The best closing-the-stable-door-after-the-horse-is bolted option.

3. iLok. The best preventative option (although some believe the cure is worse than the disease, more pragmatically there is currently no open platform that supports it for devs anyway)


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## Francis Belardino (Jan 3, 2013)

*Happy New Year* to all and continued success in sales and/or scores!


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## Andrew Aversa (Jan 3, 2013)

Well, one can't argue with principle I suppose. If you choose not to compete with pirates, that is your choice. Despite Shreddage & the rest of our catalog being available for free, we manage to significantly grow each year... the same can be said for 8dio, Cinesamples, Native Instruments, etc. It's true that doubling-down on quality, service and great prices isn't a direct 'solution' in the sense that you're not interacting directly with pirates. But if the effect is that you're increasing sales, making more money, and increasing the # of legit, loyal customers.... the practical impact is the same.

I will add that we started using MUSO last month because hey, it's only about $25, and it does in fact work to at least push off more of the illegitimate search results. I wouldn't call it a complete solution but it's something that does 0 harm to legit users and that's what I like to see. Dongles I'm more iffy about again because many legit users don't like them.


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## Francis Belardino (Jan 3, 2013)

zircon_st @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> I will add that we started using MUSO last month because hey, it's only about $25



I don't say this sarcastically, but I would be very interested to know how long it will take this service to find and remove yesterdays ups. 

In any event, I do sincerely wish you continued success.


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## tcollins (Jan 5, 2013)

zircon_st @ Thu Jan 03 said:


> Well, one can't argue with principle I suppose. If you choose not to compete with pirates, that is your choice. Despite Shreddage & the rest of our catalog being available for free, we manage to significantly grow each year... the same can be said for 8dio, Cinesamples, Native Instruments, etc. It's true that doubling-down on quality, service and great prices isn't a direct 'solution' in the sense that you're not interacting directly with pirates. But if the effect is that you're increasing sales, making more money, and increasing the # of legit, loyal customers.... the practical impact is the same.
> 
> I will add that we started using MUSO last month because hey, it's only about $25, and it does in fact work to at least push off more of the illegitimate search results. I wouldn't call it a complete solution but it's something that does 0 harm to legit users and that's what I like to see. Dongles I'm more iffy about again because many legit users don't like them.



Great to hear this, Andrew! You'll find that the files will become harder to find with each passing week, and eventually most of the would-be freeloaders will get frustrated and either buy the product or forget about it. If all of us start doing this we can perhaps discourage file sharing sites from even accepting sample libraries.


TC


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## quantum7 (Jan 6, 2013)

This thread has had me scouring the web for cracks out of curiosity. It was just for research as I buy all my stuff....sometimes way too much stuff. I find it amazing that there are tons of music software on the crack sites with products that cost under a measly $20. I've saw a product that only cost $5 on a site. It seems like price does not matter. Engine is now cracked with nearly every Engine library available now. PLAY evidently has not ever been touched. Perhaps the industry should adopt PLAY's copy protection? They use Ilok and I've never had problems with my PLAY libs. 

Before this thread I am sorry to say that I wasn't all that concerned with this epidemic and regrettably thought that some of the developers were just over-blowing the problem. I apologize for that. I cannot imagine how frustrating this all must be for them. I spent over 4k on music software in 2012 and God-willing I continue to flourish with my music career so I can continue to do that every year in support of the developers that have provided me the tools that have allowed me to write beautiful music. 

God-bless the developers!


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 6, 2013)

quantum7 @ Sun Jan 06 said:


> This thread has had me scouring the web for cracks out of curiosity. It was just for research as I buy all my stuff....sometimes way too much stuff. I find it amazing that there are tons of music software on the crack sites with products that cost under a measly $20. I've saw a product that only cost $5 on a site. It seems like price does not matter. Engine is now cracked with nearly every Engine library available now. PLAY evidently has not ever been touched. Perhaps the industry should adopt PLAY's copy protection? They use Ilok and I've never had problems with my PLAY libs.
> 
> Before this thread I am sorry to say that I wasn't all that concerned with this epidemic and regrettably thought that some of the developers were just over-blowing the problem. I apologize for that. I cannot imagine how frustrating this all must be for them. I spent over 4k on music software in 2012 and God-willing I continue to flourish with my music career so I can continue to do that every year in support of the developers that have provided me the tools that have allowed me to write beautiful music.
> 
> God-bless the developers!



There's no reason why iLok shouldn't be better than it is, and if it was it could be much more widely embraced by devs and punters alike. First of all would be to have a system of online recovery in the event of theft / loss, a la the Waves system. Second would be for a way for it to be used in tandem with a good player open to all developers. The best solution here would of course be to make Kontakt 6 support iLok - as an optional alternative (or addition) to their own protection, which developers could enable or not.

If the sample player we all love had real protection, and consumers were properly protected in case of theft or damage, I think a huge amount of the resistance to iLok would go. And I have to say - it's pretty damn impressive that it hasn't been cracked in all this time.

If I were a dev, I'd be putting pressure on both Pace and NI.


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## Francis Belardino (Jan 6, 2013)

quantum7 @ Sun Jan 06 said:


> This thread has had me scouring the web for cracks out of curiosity. It was just for research as I buy all my stuff....sometimes way too much stuff. I find it amazing that there are tons of music software on the crack sites with products that cost under a measly $20. I've saw a product that only cost $5 on a site. It seems like price does not matter. Engine is now cracked with nearly every Engine library available now. PLAY evidently has not ever been touched. Perhaps the industry should adopt PLAY's copy protection? They use Ilok and I've never had problems with my PLAY libs.
> 
> Before this thread I am sorry to say that I wasn't all that concerned with this epidemic and regrettably thought that some of the developers were just over-blowing the problem. I apologize for that. I cannot imagine how frustrating this all must be for them. I spent over 4k on music software in 2012 and God-willing I continue to flourish with my music career so I can continue to do that every year in support of the developers that have provided me the tools that have allowed me to write beautiful music.
> 
> God-bless the developers!



*B R A V O*


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## KMuzzey (Jan 7, 2013)

For devs, if it helps any -- and you probably know about this already, but it never hurts to mention it -- you can set up google alerts on various search terms, and the minute something matching those terms hits Google, an alert turns up in your google inbox/dashboard. It allows you to stay on top of sending DMCA notices. It's not a solution, but it does help to stem the bleeding. And if you're also using MUSO, you can then enter those new links right into their SEO tab to have them taken down.

Kerry


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## Mike Greene (Jan 7, 2013)

Kerry, I signed up for MUSO. Thanks for letting me know about it. 8) 

Knock on wood, their results are that there are no Realivox torrents. Interestingly, though, they did have results in the SEO tab. My first instinct was to have them removed, but I clicked to see exactly what those links had - it was old NAMM videos! Hmmmm . . . on the one hand, I'd like Google to have fewer links that suggest (inaccurately) that Realivox is pirated, but on the other hand, they're free advertising! Decisions, decisions . . . :mrgreen:


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## kitekrazy (Jan 7, 2013)

quantum7 @ Sun Jan 06 said:


> This thread has had me scouring the web for cracks out of curiosity. It was just for research as I buy all my stuff....sometimes way too much stuff. I find it amazing that there are tons of music software on the crack sites with products that cost under a measly $20. I've saw a product that only cost $5 on a site. It seems like price does not matter. Engine is now cracked with nearly every Engine library available now. PLAY evidently has not ever been touched. Perhaps the industry should adopt PLAY's copy protection? They use Ilok and I've never had problems with my PLAY libs.
> 
> Before this thread I am sorry to say that I wasn't all that concerned with this epidemic and regrettably thought that some of the developers were just over-blowing the problem. I apologize for that. I cannot imagine how frustrating this all must be for them. I spent over 4k on music software in 2012 and God-willing I continue to flourish with my music career so I can continue to do that every year in support of the developers that have provided me the tools that have allowed me to write beautiful music.
> 
> God-bless the developers!



Seriously who would pay a crack site $20 for some software? Is there really honor among thieves?

Even authorization is a marketing scheme. I wish I could find a quote at NSS from Eric of Spectrasonics on why they refuse to use a dongle. You could also dig up the thread at KVR where many users refuse ti buy dongled products.


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## Leosc (Jan 7, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Mon Jan 07 said:


> where many users refuse ti buy dongled products.



... including other devs!


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## Eclipse.Sound (Jan 8, 2013)

I dont think that in benefit of few people police should have the right to search computer or invigilate anyone - and that's the common misconception about the fight with piracy.

You dont make money - stop what you're doing and move on, do something else.

Best thing we can do - is add some free stuff to download for our customers.

And software developers should make frequent patches and updates to download (so the crackers get overwhelmed by this)

And for more expensive soft - add some hardware controlers or something...

thats it - but no Police and no invigilation (just saying)

You will probably say - "this will make the prodcut cost more" - but think about it - how many money some unnecessary regulations consume - at the end without bureaucracy and ultra-low taxes we get everything cheaper.

eliminate the VAT (and thats just beginning) - and u will have money for hardware controler.


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## Sasje (Jan 18, 2013)

Interesting question...

Currently I am working towards selling my own libraries, and honesty: I would not care if someone downloads it. 
I hope however, that they buy the library if they like it after trying it. 
And I do trust users, I want to give this trust by giving the user a fully working trial version.

I really believe that if someone want to own a library, he will buy it. If the person doesn't have money, there isn't a lost sale either.


_1. A group response - form a large ad hoc team that would contact every website and get them to take down all specific torrents related to our business._

*Will not work. Pirates will come up with a new way, method or platform making it more easy.*

_2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five (both of which rely on iLok which afaik has never been cracked)_

*I think iLok is an insult to honest buyers.*

_3. An alternate group response - form a small skilled and possibly paid team to flood the net with fake downloads and spread disinformation_

*Will not work, and only aggravate potential buyers who wants to test it. *

_4. Get directly involved in public education_
*
I am sure about this one.*

_5. Watermarked samples (nb this one added after original OP, and note - ineffective if original sample library was bought fraudulently). _

*Again, it's an insult to the buyer. The source has been tainted. I would never buy watermarked libraries.*


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 18, 2013)

Sasje @ Fri Jan 18 said:


> _5. Watermarked samples (nb this one added after original OP, and note - ineffective if original sample library was bought fraudulently). _
> 
> *Again, it's an insult to the buyer. The source has been tainted. I would never buy watermarked libraries.*



What?!!!!


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## Sasje (Jan 18, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Jan 18 said:


> Sasje @ Fri Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > _5. Watermarked samples (nb this one added after original OP, and note - ineffective if original sample library was bought fraudulently). _
> ...



Is this so strange? 

I do believe it is an insult to buyer, because you are being seen as a potential thief. 

The warnings read like: 'We do watermark our samples, and if you spread this instrument we are going to hunt you down like mad dogs"

No way I will buy it.

But there is another problem with it:

What happens if my PC gets hacked, or I lose a drive, or my PC gets stolen, or one of my USB sticks get lost, what if my libs are put on a torrent network? Then I am to blame if they start analyzing the watermarks. Would be difficult to explain that one. I will not take that risk. Never. That said, most cracked or pirated stuff is being bought with stolen creditcards, which renders the watermark protection scheme completely useless.


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## Andrew Aversa (Jan 18, 2013)

I've been on forums like KVR and VI for 8+ years now and I've never heard of such a case - someone who bought watermarked samples legitimately, and then had their HD (or whatever) stolen, and then had their watermarked samples uploaded. It's so impossibly unlikely as to be a non-factor. Anyone who is in the business of physical theft and robbery is not going to know enough to find a specific folder on your computer, and know how/where to upload it to torrent sites. You have a greater chance of winning the lottery.

A watermark is no different than identifying information on cars or electronic devices. Serial numbers, VINs, etc.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 18, 2013)

Sasje @ Fri Jan 18 said:


> Is this so strange?



Honestly... yes it is. I've never heard of anyone taking an ideological principle this far for their purchasing decisions. It's into the "cut off your nose to spite your face" territory.

I don't really follow the logic either. The warning about copying the library isn't aimed at the honest consumer - doesn't apply. They don't rip it off anyway. It's aimed as a warning to the criminal, who will see exactly the same product as you. It is a method which is totally benign to an honest consumer, and as Zircon says, no-one has ever been in that theoretical position you describe.

Good luck with your business. I think you are going to need it.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 18, 2013)

Sasje @ Fri Jan 18 said:


> Is this so strange?



As Guy says, yes it is.

The watermarking is not aimed towards the honest consumer. Requiem was (I think; feel free to correct me if I am wrong) the first mass watermarked sample lib to hit the market. I didn't take this as an insult when I purchased it.

You have to understand something - it's not only the honest consumer who will buy the lib. Yes, they make up the vast majority. But there are others who will buy the lib and then share it. Like the guy that CS went after last year. He used Internet discussion boards to organize a group purchase of a single license of CineBrass. He then made one purchase, and distributed the lib over the internet. Those are the people that watermarking is aimed towards.

Cheers.


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## Ben H (Jan 18, 2013)

Sasje @ Fri Jan 18 said:


> Is this so strange?



To me it is.

It's kind of like saying that you wont shop at a store where they have a "Warning: surveillance cameras in use" sign.

They aren't put there to threaten the honest customers, but to (hopefully) disuade the thieves.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 19, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Jan 18 said:


> Sasje @ Fri Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Is this so strange?



Honestly... yes it is. 

The fact that a copy protection method won't stop hackers is not an argument against methods that will stop some of them.

And I lock my car, turn on the alarm, and double-lock my house at night Sasje. Is that an insult to every honest person in my neighborhood who walks past them with no intention of stealing my car or breaking into my house?


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## KEnK (Jan 19, 2013)

While I sympathize w/ devs, I personally do feel put upon by some protection methods.

I was very annoyed at having to pay for EW's copy protection method (iLok)
And recently saw an intro to a manual from a watermarked library.
The 1st page was a *WARNING!!*
I found it kind of over the top and insulting.

And I don't particularly enjoy surveillance cameras either.
And similarly- occasionally I've found that I'm being "observed" by a store "dick".
I find this both insulting and accusatory as well.

This is not so different to me from over the top protection methods.

k


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## Darthmorphling (Jan 19, 2013)

I am curious as to how many of you enjoy having to show your receipts, for the stuff you have just legally purchased, as you walk out of a store. The fact is we live in a society where trust is gone and everyone is treated like a criminal. I'm not personally going to stop buying libraries that have watermarks on them, but I do avoid going to Guitar Center and being treated like a thief because I just bought some strings.


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## KEnK (Jan 19, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Sat Jan 19 said:


> I am curious as to how many of you enjoy having to show your receipts, for the stuff you have just legally purchased, as you walk out of a store. The fact is we live in a society where trust is gone and everyone is treated like a criminal. I'm not personally going to stop buying libraries that have watermarks on them, but I do avoid going to Guitar Center and being treated like a thief because I just bought some strings.


I hate all of that too, and end up avoiding stores where it's assumed I'm a thief.
There are enough other options where I don't need to succumb to accusatory behavior on the part of a business I'm spending money at.
Essentially, I'm being pushed out of the door permantently by over zealous security measures. 
I just don't spend money at places I'm treated poorly.
There's no need.

k


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## Darthmorphling (Jan 19, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 19 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Fri Jan 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Sasje @ Fri Jan 18 said:
> ...



The fact that hackers can pirate stuff is not a reason to assume your paying customers are thieves as well.

When you lock your house and your car you are protecting your property that is not being sold to others. If you did sell it, you give up your keys and alarm code to the person you sell it to. Your neighbors are not paying customers so you are not treating customers like thieves.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 19, 2013)

imo this is a silly discussion. Watermarking offers no disadvantages to the consumer, but helps protect the developer. I don't for one millisecond take any offence with warnings they give, it's absurd - if you are honest, they're not aimed at you, and I'd be thrilled if one person who was going to pirate stopped because of them... it only takes ONE PERSON to wreck it.

Move on.


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## Darthmorphling (Jan 19, 2013)

Watermarking doesn't really bother me as much as dongles do. Watermarks do not break causing headaches with reauthorization. Dongles do, and I shouldn't have to go through a downtime while I prove I am the owner of the license.

A pirate never has to worry about their dongle breaking.

I will continue to buy products that do not have dongles as they meet my needs and do so without hassles. About to purchase Zebra2, or Omnisphere. No hardware needed other than my computer.


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## quantum7 (Jan 20, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 19 said:


> And I lock my car, turn on the alarm, and double-lock my house at night Sasje. Is that an insult to every honest person in my neighborhood who walks past them with no intention of stealing my car or breaking into my house?



I like that analogy!  There is virtually no crime where I live and I still lock my doors- I'm pretty sure my neighbors are not offended. 

I have absolutely no problem with watermarking. The odds of getting your HD stolen is low. The odds that the thief who stole your HD also happens to be in the warez scene and uploads your libs, astronomically low!!! Your HD gets stolen, you simply contact the developer and let him know. Simple as that! :roll:


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## tcollins (Feb 1, 2013)

Well, the bad guys got my Solid State Symphony. :( :x 
A few days ago sales suddenly dropped, while at the same time traffic to my site and YouTube demos went through the roof. I knew what THAT meant immediately. 
Some folks will only buy if they can't steal.
But it lasted almost a month, which is twice as long as Torch lasted. I've got my guys working on take-downs, so we'll see just how well my theory of DMCA enforcement works this time. 

Since the pirate forums seem to enjoy embedding my YouTube vids, I'm adding an annotation that reads:

"Please support our work and fight piracy by purchasing Solid State Symphony for only $40 at indiginus.com. Thank-you."

I would like to add the same text in French, German, Spanish, Russian, Japanese, and any other language I can. I would appreciated any help on the translations of this by my friends here at vi control.

Thanks,
TC


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## yellowstudio (Feb 1, 2013)

That's sad to hear Tracy. I'll try to help a tiny bit by translating to German:

"Bitte unterstützt unsere Arbeit und bekämpft Softwarepiraterie indem ihr Solid State Symphony für nur 40,-$ auf indiginus.com kauft. Vielen Dank."

That's informal, you know there's a difference in directly addressing persons in writing that you don't know, the more formal one would be:

"Bitte unterstützen Sie unsere Arbeit und bekämpfen Sie Softwarepiraterie indem Sie Solid State Symphony für nur 40,-$ auf indiginus.com kaufen. Vielen Dank."

Best,
Andreas


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## Vartio (Feb 1, 2013)

tcollins @ Fri Feb 01 said:


> "Please support our work and fight piracy by purchasing Solid State Symphony for only $40 at indiginus.com. Thank-you."
> 
> I would like to add the same text in French, German, Spanish, Russian, Japanese, and any other language I can. I would appreciated any help on the translations of this by my friends here at vi control.


that isn't a bad idea... I find it hard to believe that the users who pirate are deliberately aiming to put developers out of business. so the other option left is ignorance and thoughtlessness. maybe that can be changed.


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## tcollins (Feb 1, 2013)

yellowstudio @ Fri Feb 01 said:


> That's sad to hear Tracy. I'll try to help a tiny bit by translating to German:
> 
> "Bitte unterstützt unsere Arbeit und bekämpft Softwarepiraterie indem ihr Solid State Symphony für nur 40,-$ auf indiginus.com kauft. Vielen Dank."
> 
> ...



Thanks, Andreas. I just put it on the video.


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## jgarciaserra (Feb 1, 2013)

In Spanish:
"Por favor, apoya nuestro trabajo y lucha contra la piratería comprando Solid State Symphony por sólo 40$ en indiginus.com. Gracias."

and in Catalan:
"Per favor, dóna suport al nostre treball i lluita contra la pirateria comprant Solid State Symphony per tan sols 40$ a indiginus.com. Gràcies! "


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## tcollins (Feb 1, 2013)

Vartio @ Fri Feb 01 said:


> tcollins @ Fri Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > that isn't a bad idea... I find it hard to believe that the users who pirate are deliberately aiming to put developers out of business. so the other option left is ignorance and thoughtlessness. maybe that can be changed.



I do think that some people might be moved to purchase if the information is right in front of them, since they wouldn't be able to fool themselves into thinking that it's OK.
Others will just ignore it.


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## tcollins (Feb 1, 2013)

jgarciaserra @ Fri Feb 01 said:


> In Spanish:
> "Por favor, apoya nuestro trabajo y lucha contra la piratería comprando Solid State Symphony por sólo 40$ en indiginus.com. Gracias."
> 
> and in Catalan:
> "Per favor, dóna suport al nostre treball i lluita contra la pirateria comprant Solid State Symphony per tan sols 40$ a indiginus.com. Gràcies! "



Thank-you!


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## tcollins (Feb 6, 2013)

I have removed the texts from the Walk-through video, but it was worth a shot. Thanks again for the help in the translations. I'll never learn- there is no sense appealing to honor where there is none.

Anyway, the links are being killed one by one, so things will improve soon hopefully.
In the meantime, it's probably best if I stop writing about this.

TC


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 6, 2013)

tcollins @ Wed Feb 06 said:


> I have removed the texts from the Walk-through video, but it was worth a shot. Thanks again for the help in the translations. I'll never learn- there is no sense appealing to honor where there is none.
> 
> Anyway, the links are being killed one by one, so things will improve soon hopefully.
> In the meantime, it's probably best if I stop writing about this.
> ...



That sucks, TC. What an age we live in.


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## Ganvai (Feb 6, 2013)

Wow, just read this. Solid State Symphony costs 40$ and they steal it? 

Oh my god, there must be so many poor bastards out there with nothing to eat, ... but with a pc to make some music but not enough money left for a 40$ lib.

Very sorry for you, TC.


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## IvanP (Feb 6, 2013)

tcollins @ Fri Feb 01 said:


> "Please support our work and fight piracy by purchasing Solid State Symphony for only $40 at indiginus.com. Thank-you."
> 
> I would like to add the same text in French, German, Spanish, Russian, Japanese, and any other language I can. I would appreciated any help on the translations of this by my friends here at vi control.
> 
> ...



Just saw someone translated it into spanish...

So here's in French:

" Merci de soutenir notre travail et de combattre le piratage en achetant Solid State Symphony pour, uniquement, 40 $ chez indiginus.com. Merci beaucoup "


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## wst3 (Feb 6, 2013)

more news, not terribly positive I'm afraid, but I signed up for a news aggregation service called "newsle", and it's starting to look like it's more about links to pirated software than anything else. The most recent posts there were links to various Scarbee libraries and Alchemy. Sad thing is, there are also links to articles I'd like to read, but until they get their act together I've dropped my subscription, with a reasonably polite email letting them know why.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 7, 2013)

That sucks, TC, I'm so sorry to hear it.

On the other hand, consider yourself $40 richer, 'cause if Project Alpha ever dl's (slow!!) I'm buyin' it. Great product, just haven't gotten around. I turned my friend Nutotech onto it as well, and he bought it and loves it.

This stuff makes me so angry....and I hate the feeling of impotence that accompanies the anger.


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## tcollins (Feb 7, 2013)

Thanks for the support, guys. Not to worry- I'm a naturally happy and optimistic kind of guy, and I did know that it would happen with Solid State, just as it did with AGC, Torch, and the rest of our catalog. It still knocks the wind out of you, though.
The good news is that despite all of this there are enough honest folks out there to keep us going, and for that I am very grateful.

I believe that it's important to fight for the interests of our customers (and ourselves), so we are committed to removing illegal files. It was really crazy this time (the piracy), and happened literally overnight, so it's taking some time. 

TC


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## Christian F. Perucchi (Feb 8, 2013)

As soon as i get my paypal account with money again (this week) SS symphony will be mine! and i will be using it in my next Games scores! you are awesome! keep up the great work TC!
Cheers!
Christian


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## Ah_dziz (Feb 16, 2013)

I have had my work (music) pirated before and it sucks. It didn't really bother me too badly until I found somebody selling it though. I did have a good time hounding the perpetrator though. 

I have no problem with most of todays copy protection schemes, and would have no problem with NI adopting any of them, but I would definitely not follow any developer to a new platform that hadn't been on the market long enough to prove as capable and stable as kontakt. 

I am curious what developers feel is a fair price for protection of their product as I have an idea for a platform independent protection scheme that may be worth developing.


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## Ah_dziz (Feb 16, 2013)

Sorry. Double post. Stupid phone.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 19, 2013)

Vartio @ Fri Feb 01 said:


> tcollins @ Fri Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > "Please support our work and fight piracy by purchasing Solid State Symphony for only $40 at indiginus.com. Thank-you."
> ...



Actually crack groups like H20 give a statement in their crack software to purchase it from the developer.


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## Kejero (Feb 20, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Wed Feb 20 said:


> Actually crack groups like H20 give a statement in their crack software to purchase it from the developer.



Wtf... :D Whatever makes themselves feel better I guess.


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## Guy Rowland (Feb 28, 2013)

It may not be our field exactly but here's a rare piece of good news... "Music piracy down as revenues rise" - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21601602

P2P downloads last year decreased by 17%, and - yes - legal revenue rose to take its place. It almost looks like more people are paying for what they might previously have stolen.



> The report said as many as 40% of people who used illegal music services in 2011 stopped doing so in 2012.
> 
> Of those, 20% said this was due to the fact the illegal service they were using had been shut down, or had contained spyware and viruses.
> 
> More than half the users who stopped using illegal sites said they now preferred legal services such as the UK-headquartered Spotify.



Don't want to derail this thread into a long discussion on the merits of otherwise of Spotify et al, but I do take this as an encouragement that the desire to make illegal downloading less socially acceptable might be having some success. The fight to take down illegal sites also seems important.


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## shakuman (Mar 2, 2013)

The truth is no one can stop the piracy! :(


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## ek (Mar 2, 2013)

tcollins @ February 1st 2013 said:


> Well, the bad guys got my Solid State Symphony. :( :x
> A few days ago sales suddenly dropped, while at the same time traffic to my site and YouTube demos went through the roof. I knew what THAT meant immediately.
> Some folks will only buy if they can't steal.
> But it lasted almost a month, which is twice as long as Torch lasted. I've got my guys working on take-downs, so we'll see just how well my theory of DMCA enforcement works this time.
> ...



Sorry to hear that your SSS got pirated... I hope my Chinese translation won't be late to help: 
“我们在制作Solid State Symphony 上投入了大量的心血，如果您喜欢她，希望您能够考虑花40美元（不到260人民币）在我们官网indiginus.com 来购买，告别盗版！谢谢！”
* If all you see is random characters, use GB2312 to decode the sentence above :D 

This one actually means "It took us a lot of effort in the making of the Solid State Symphony, if you like her, hope you would consider buying her for 40USD (less than 260CNY) on our official site indiginus.com and say goodbye to piracy! Thanks!" 

And your idea is translated like this (If all you need is a shorter one)  :
“希望大家支持我们的心血，到indiginus.com 购买正版，谢谢！” 

Maybe you have already known that YouTube is blocked in China(Mainland), so there might only be a few Chinese guys able to reach there :( . But don't worry, there are always helpful guys (they are always active and working) carrying YT videos to local based video sites like youku.com or tudou.com which I guess don't have annotation or caption functions yet. However, your annotations may get into their eyes and I think they will then consider highlighting them by embedding subtitles or the like. I should have been the carrier for you, but since I'm currently busy preparing for a SUPER MAJOR exam in June, my Internet time is greatly restricted so I don't have time to walk through the "download-upload-wait for convertion-wait for verification-post in a forum" progress. Really sorry for that... 

Cheers for the bright future that piracy gets wiped out!


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## Rv5 (Mar 17, 2013)

_*EDIT: Post edited. Please... VI does not support Warez listings. Showing a fairly comprehensive list of who's who in terms of being pirated does not help this thread. Please do not post these on VI. 

Admin
*_

It's a thriving community that spreads the continents and is further fueled by hosts paying out for the amount of downloads and people buying premium accounts. With international laws divided and the fact they are always years behind regarding digital data and arguably intellectual data, plus the cultural, social-economical, anthropological, moral and psychological issues involved in the matter of software piracy the answer (in my mind) is far beyond anything I've known done in the world.


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## Rv5 (Mar 18, 2013)

> EDIT: Post edited. Please... VI does not support Warez listings. Showing a fairly comprehensive list of who's who in terms of being pirated does not help this thread. Please do not post these on VI.
> 
> Admin



Sorry admin/folks, understood, my intentions weren't sinister.


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## Guy Rowland (May 5, 2013)

So - over in the Cinematic Strings thread, several people seemed interested in a subscription model as a solution. Personally I'm not to keen on subs, but let's explore the idea.

Right now, I think that iLok is the only technology that could allow something like that, but maybe it's too restrictive? I know I iLoks can get cluttered up with trial licenses that can't be deleted, but can the developer actually change the expiry date on them?

Alternatively, anyone know how Adobe's cloud model works? Do you need to be online? Has it been hacked?


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## ptrickf (May 5, 2013)

tcollins @ Fri 01 Feb said:


> Well, the bad guys got my Solid State Symphony. :( :x


 Sorry to hear that also Tracy. I'd want to believe that the price and regular updates for such a good library would encourage people to pay for it. I imagine that many of the people that steal these libraries don't ever use them so maybe wouldn't have bought them anyway. Hopefully the ones that do will see the error of their ways and buy it. Although the cynic in me suggests that this is a naive view. 

Would you like us to send you links if we see them on our web travels? 

Cheers, Patrick.


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## Rctec (May 5, 2013)

last year we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on secuity. I'd rather use that money to pay musicians.
We build our own sampler - with ILock- but, really, what keeps it safe is the software that runs a proprietary system, and the content is huge amounts of data that would bring your average computer to its knees. You don't want our samples. because your electricity bill will kill you. We ownly have human error problems.
The technology is fairly safe, but when a moron takes a drive with him on a holliday, and his car gets robbed...he'll not work in this business ever again.
I know others have tried building their own samplers, but because they try to include the bottom of the market, they have, by nature done volatile systems that have to work on any computer with a basic spec and are open to all hackers.
Is your computer stuff behind a serious firewall? Do you have a competent tech team?
Anyway, ive posted that somewhere else, but it's a good read by one of my favorite authors...Ron Rosenblum
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/What-Turned-Jaron-Lanier-Against-the-Web-183832741.html?c=y&page=100&device=iphone (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-cult ... ice=iphone)

...Just a different way of looking at it.

And I look at it like: When you steel a plug-in you're a tief. if you steel my music, you are a thief. if you steel my ideas and sounds, if you steel my name and my style, you are a thief. Good sofar? And one day, someone will come by and you'll meet. and we'll have it out.
If you need a piece of bread, cup of coffee...ask...

****You have a PC but don't want to pay the $40? What sort of selfish pratt are you?***
Best,
-H-


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## mk282 (May 5, 2013)

Sasje @ 18.1.2013 said:


> _2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five (both of which rely on iLok which afaik has never been cracked)_
> 
> *I think iLok is an insult to honest buyers.*



I agree. iLok is crap. Their site STILL not being updated with modern times, so you cannot use a newer version of Firefox, Chrome, and Opera. Either shitty IE or old FF3. I mean, come on, don't be stupid!


It's all pushed onto the legitimate customer, they have to suffer these inconveniences just because some stuck-up dev believes he can protect his stuff with this dongle.


Newsflash - iLok is not uncrackable, and it's just a matter of time when everything EW did for PLAY will show up everywhere. What will happen then? Also, ProTools 10 is cracked, DESPITE using iLok.


For every lock, there will always be a key. This is why I agree with what zircon says. A developer shouldn't fight against piracy by using counterproductive DRM schemes (dongles), they should just keep plodding along, providing great products at an affordable price, providing admirable support, regular updates, etc. It works for a lot of devs, and for those that it doesn't work, I can only see their stuck-up attitude as the only reason.


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## G.R. Baumann (May 5, 2013)

Just a few thoughts...

Things changed dramatically in a social economical context in Europe and the US since 2008. At times I am still amazed how uninformed most people are when it comes to a deeper understanding of the underlying problems.

In my opinion, the very social fabric, and that is a very fragile one, has been destroyed by the forces at play and was slowly substituted by a financial oligarchy that is being placed above the law, or perhaps better to say, the law will be adjusted to suit their needs where necessary. 

Whether TARP in the USA or the ESM IN Europe, to name but a few of the neo liberal agenda, whether quantitaive easing of the FED or interest rate policies of ECB, what all have in common is social engineering at work.

Below that fragile layer of civilisation, there is not much left but pure barbarism, and digital barbarism is just one of it's forms.

You steal someones work for personal gain, yes Hans, then you're a thief. You steal entire nations, empoverish and enslave their citizens for generations to come, you're a member of the club, granted immunity, and of course, "There is no other way!"

It's a strange world.

Best
Georg


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## RasmusFors (May 5, 2013)

I don't think you can stop piracy, but I do think you can make it smaller. I've read on a swedish forum about a guy who pirated for a living. Basicly what they do is that they buy some software, let's say cinematic strings for 499. They upload that to a site like uploded or extabit, and they requier their files to be downloded by premium users. Thanks to that, more people register to these sharing sites, and the author of the files that made the customer register, gets a small percentage of the money. Some pirates also use sites like adfly and linkbucks to earn money. Lets say 20 000 people want to download cinematic strings. If they all click on the link that the pirate gave them he earns a few cents for each one of the clicks. If he gets like 10 cents per click, he earns 2000 dollar which is much more than the price of Cinematic Strings which he bought to release. Plus he gets the money from the filesharing site which he can use to buy a new product to release to the pirate community.

I'm not sure of how correct that teory is, but I went inte some sites like extabit.com, and they all have secret "partner menus" and other fishy stuff. If it's true that some pirates makes a living of pirating, the best way to stop it would be to take down sites like uploded/extabit and linkbucks/adfly. In that way they can't earn money from it, and people would stop pirating these big expensive libraries. A more controversial thing to consider would be to flood the internet whith the pirated product. Make the already pirated stuff available everywhere so that the pirates can download it free, without registring to sharingsites and go through these "adlinks"


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## ptrickf (May 5, 2013)

tcollins @ Fri 01 Feb said:


> Well, the bad guys got my Solid State Symphony. :( :x


 Sorry to hear that also Tracy. I'd want to believe that the price and regular updates for such a good library would encourage people to pay for it. I imagine that many of the people that steal these libraries don't ever use them so maybe wouldn't have bought them anyway. Hopefully the ones that do will see the error of their ways and buy it. Although the cynic in me suggests that this is a naive view. 

Would you like us to send you links if we see them on our web travels? 

Cheers, Patrick.


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## guitarman1960 (May 5, 2013)

Haven't read the whole thread yet, so apologise if this has already been covered.
You can't stop piracy, so companies making products, whether it's cd's, dvd's, games, or music software shouldn't waste their resources trying to outsmart the pirates and come up with what they think are un-copyable products, it's not going to happen.
Any music that can be heard can be pirated, even if that means playing a CD over loudspeakers and and sticking a microphone in front of the speakers. I just can't beleive how naieve corporations are regarding this, and the millions the record industry has wasted trying to stop it. You can't - end of!
Software is a different matter, and yes I am sure the people who post cracked versions on the file-sharing sites are making decent money from click-throughs and advert pop-ups, and taking a percentage from sharing site sign-up fees. It's small change but can add up to decent money over time. Sites like MegaUpload were closed down by the FBI, but that's also pointless because when you close some down, new ones will just spring up. As much as authorities like to think they can police the internet, they can't really because it takes so much time to investigate each case and take action, and by then plenty of other sites are up and running.
And that's without Dark Nets such as TOR Hidden Services, and others which are pretty much the new frontier of a totally anonymous un-policeable internet.
Even if all the bit-torrent sites were taken down, it would move further underground to the Dark Net and things like TOR Hidden Services, so it's a pointless chase.


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## NYC Composer (May 5, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun May 05 said:


> And I look at it like: When you steel a plug-in you're a tief. if you steel my music, you are a thief. if you steel my ideas and sounds, if you steel my name and my style, you are a thief. Good sofar? And one day, someone will come by and you'll meet. and we'll have it out.
> If you need a piece of bread, cup of coffee...ask...
> 
> ****You have a PC but don't want to pay the $40? What sort of selfish pratt are you?***
> ...



THANK you. +10,000.


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## mk282 (May 5, 2013)

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 84#5339184

This post is quite insightful.


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## boogyman (May 5, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun May 05 said:


> And I look at it like: When you steel a plug-in you're a tief. if you steel my music, you are a thief. if you steel my ideas and sounds, if you steel my name and my style, you are a thief. Good sofar? And one day, someone will come by and you'll meet. and we'll have it out.


I agree with you. However, what if someone were to ask you,"Hey, can I use this sound from Modern Warfare 2(Which I do), Crysis 2, Inception, Batman trilogy...etc?? What if someone were to credit you on his/her song? "Style inspired by Hans Zimmer", or "Percussion samples from Hans Zimmer's (Insert soundtrack here)". As I said, I agree with you that if someone steals a plug-in, your name, and style, that person is a thief. Being young myself, my friends keep telling me to pirate this, and pirate that. I don't because I would never get the same satisfaction if I were to pirate something than just buying it. You can't hack physical items either!


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## cc64 (May 5, 2013)

boogyman @ Sun May 05 said:


> You can't hack physical items either!



Check out 3D Printers. It's the next revolution people will be able to print a house(it's already been done), car, anything after downloading a plan. Scary stuff, some guys have actually been able to print a gun that shoots for real, it breaks after 50-60 shots...

I heard all of this in a science radio show on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation), didn't read it in the Enquirer ; )

It's not there for the masses yet...but how long?

Claude


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## Guy Rowland (May 5, 2013)

mk282 @ Sun May 05 said:


> Sasje @ 18.1.2013 said:
> 
> 
> > _2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five (both of which rely on iLok which afaik has never been cracked)_
> ...



iLok is nowhere near as good as it should be, and I agree with a lot of the criticisms made against it. However, it is now many, many years old and has withstood everything the pirates have thrown against it. Maybe it will fall tomorrow, but that's an awful lot of piracy-free years for companies like East West. Nothing else has lasted anything like that long in our industry.

I'd be throwing my weight 100% behind iLok if they had licenses in the cloud a la Waves and if developers allowed 2 licenses on 2 iLok's that were registered to the same owner. As it is, it's a PITA - the question remains if the cure is worse than the disease. It's interesting that so few devs have embraced it, which leads me to conclude that however poor the status quo is, it's not bad enough for most to take such drastic measures.

No-one interested in pursuing a rental model, and how that could work?


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## guitarman1960 (May 5, 2013)

Of course the real and best answer to piracy is to return to HARDWARE!
I remember fondly the days of drooling over the racks of Akai & Emu samplers and gorgeous hardware synths I could never hope to afford.
Software is worth practically nothing second hand, and why do you think software companies package a DVD disc in a massive shiny box with expensive looking graphics? To make it look like you've actually bought more than a shiny disc worth a few pence!
I think the future could be to combine a sample library with a piece of hardware that the library is unusable without ( And I don't mean a flippin annoying dongle, I mean an actual hardware interface). SOLVED???


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## boogyman (May 5, 2013)

cc64 @ Sun May 05 said:


> boogyman @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > You can't hack physical items either!
> ...



I've heard about the 3D printers. I don't think a car made out of that material will last long. Also the money that is needed for the material on the full size car will not be worth it. Sure you can make firearms, but it's not the 'real' metal versions of it.



guitarman1960 @ Sun May 05 said:


> Of course the real and best answer to piracy is to return to HARDWARE!
> I remember fondly the days of drooling over the racks of Akai & Emu samplers and gorgeous hardware synths I could never hope to afford.
> Software is worth practically nothing second hand, and why do you think software companies package a DVD disc in a massive shiny box with expensive looking graphics? To make it look like you've actually bought more than a shiny disc worth a few pence!
> I think the future could be to combine a sample library with a piece of hardware that the library is unusable without ( And I don't mean a flippin annoying dongle, I mean an actual hardware interface). SOLVED???


+1


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## EastWest Lurker (May 5, 2013)

I use 2 iLoks, 2 Steinberg keys and I used to also use an XS key for Logic Pro.

Never had a real problem with any of them.


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## NYC Composer (May 5, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 05 said:


> I use 2 iLoks, 2 Steinberg keys and I used to also use an XS key for Logic Pro.
> 
> Never had a real problem with any of them.



1 iLok, 2 Steinberg keys. Ditto.


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## Conor (May 5, 2013)

A brief update/summary of an alternate idea from the "Cinematic Strings 3" derailed thread:

There is a theory that pirates pirate because they see it as the path of least resistance. For example, not many years ago there were two ways to watch movies at home:

1) Go to the store, buy the DVD, peel off way too much packaging, watch unskippable ads, and finally watch the movie.
2) Find a torrent, download the file, watch the movie. Feel slightly guilty.

Some people chose #2. But, now there is a third option:

3) Sign up for Netflix/Hulu/whatever. Watch whatever you want, on-demand, guilt-free.

It's been reported that when a title is available through one of these services, piracy for that title goes down. The new business model seems to be turning SOME pirates into paying customers.

So, it's been suggested that sample libraries would benefit from offering an "option 3." Maybe a subscription service (would work best for companies with a large product catalog), maybe some sort of Steam-like setup (where Kontakt or another engine becomes a sort of hub for finding & buying instruments).


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## Chriss Ons (May 5, 2013)

Installing and using a high end sample library is hardly comparable to streaming a movie. I think it's worth taking into the equation that implementing some sort of "subscription service"-model for a sample library would also mean that the developer needs to sell those subscriptions - and _provide support_ , as well - to far more customers in order to see the same return on their investment... It sounds very convenient for the end user, but it's probably easier said than done from a practical/business perspective.


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## daveyjones (May 5, 2013)

all im gonna say is :

http://torrentfreak.com/hollywood-studios-caught-pirating-movies-on-bittorrent-121225/


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## Darthmorphling (May 5, 2013)

I really like the business model Embertone is using. Creating wonderful instruments and selling them separately.

Spitfire could have packaged Sable as a single library for over a grand, but I believe they realized that many more copies can be sold by splitting it up. As a hobbyist I would never spend that much money on a single library purchase. However, V1 and V2 being purchased a couple of months apart is doable. I'm not sure what kind of pricing their flute and horns library will have, but I have to imagine it will be in proportion to the Sable line. If so I will be buying.

I realize hobbyists are not the intended target, but there are a lot of people that will spend a great deal of money on their hobbies. I do not believe that developers can ignore that segment of the market.


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## woodsdenis (May 5, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 05 said:


> I use 2 iLoks, 2 Steinberg keys and I used to also use an XS key for Logic Pro.
> 
> Never had a real problem with any of them.



Same here Jay

1 iLok and 1 Steinberg yoke for VePro, never had an issue with them either. I really don't get the anti iLok agenda.


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## Conor (May 5, 2013)

Steinberg/Vienna keys have never failed on me, and never caused any major headaches. I just plug them in and forget about them.

iLoks have never actually failed on me, but I still hate them. The hardware is poorly designed (Version 1 was needlessly bulky, Version 2 had a loose and intermittent connection until I put it in a vertical USB port.) The website has compatibility issues and doesn't explain itself well. ILoks may be functional, but they're still shit.

(I'm sure that has a lot to do with the fact that iLok doesn't answer to the end users of its product.)


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## EastWest Lurker (May 5, 2013)

CobraTrumpet @ Sun May 05 said:


> Steinberg/Vienna keys have never failed on me, and never caused any major headaches. I just plug them in and forget about them.
> 
> iLoks have never actually failed on me, but I still hate them. The hardware is poorly designed (Version 1 was needlessly bulky, Version 2 had a loose and intermittent connection until I put it in a vertical USB port.) The website has compatibility issues and doesn't explain itself well. ILoks may be functional, but they're still shit.
> 
> (I'm sure that has a lot to do with the fact that iLok doesn't answer to the end users of its product.)



Every successful composer that I know in LA uses at least one iLok, most multiple. They would not do so if the hardware was as bad as you say.

Nothing is "shit" that actually works and by your own admission, yours does.


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## Sasje (May 5, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 19 said:


> The fact that a copy protection method won't stop hackers is not an argument against methods that will stop some of them.


True, but the reverse is also true: There is no argument to let honest buyers pay for your "potential" loss of income. That is shifting the liability to the honest buyer, which I personally find insulting. If I need to pay $50 bucks to even run the software, then both the developer and honest buyer lost money. Developing it costs money, and me using it costs money. A lose-lose situation, while piracy just continues unaffected...

That's why I love Reaper and avoid Steinberg and the likes. Because it's an attitude. I am willing to pay for Reaper as much as they ask. Just because I love their way of treating customers. And not as potential thief's that must be monitored with DRM, spyware and other privacy invasive stuff. 

As the brilliant proverb goes: ...evil doers are aye evil-dreaders.



EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 19 said:


> And I lock my car, turn on the alarm, and double-lock my house at night Sasje. Is that an insult to every honest person in my neighborhood who walks past them with no intention of stealing my car or breaking into my house?


It's quite insulting, can't count the times I've woken up due to false-positive car alarms, that just keep going for minutes at end. Makes me quite grumpy! :wink: alas, the price I must pay for living in a busy city, where despite car alarms, cars get stolen frequently.  ...which brings me to another interesting thought: how many times is a car actually in the act of getting stolen when the alarm goes off? :mrgreen:


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## NYC Composer (May 5, 2013)

Sasje @ Sun May 05 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jan 19 said:
> 
> 
> > The fact that a copy protection method won't stop hackers is not an argument against methods that will stop some of them.
> ...



To developers- please feel free to insult me with your copy protection schemes. Assume I am a software stealing scumbag, and protect yourself against me as best you can (whilst giving me a way to authorize, please!! :wink:


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## Conor (May 5, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 05 said:


> Nothing is "[email protected]#t" that actually works and by your own admission, yours does.



OK, fair enough. Let me be less dramatic and more specific. This is what happened last time I needed to fuss with my iLok (moving it to a new machine and consolidated some licenses):
- I plugged it in and made sure the blue light came on.
- I went to the iLok website and discovered it was broken.
- Switched browsers, tried again, still broken.
- Switched browsers, tried again, still broken.
- Went back to the machine room, the blue light was off. Tried to re-seat the connection but couldn't get it stable. (No problems with other devices on this USB port before or since.) Tried duct tape and everything. Eventually got it stable by moving stuff around so I could give it a vertical port, where gravity works in my favor.
- Tried all the web browsers again until I found one that worked. (IE?)

So yes, it works, and yes, it sucks. All kinds of things work and yet suck, like fluorescent lighting that flickers, or public urinals directly adjacent to public sinks, or SimCity with Cheetah speed disabled... 

Perhaps my experience with iLoks isn't common. Maybe mine was from a bad batch or something. I merely offer my own small data point as a counterpoint to your own.



EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 05 said:


> Every successful composer that I know in LA uses at least one iLok, most multiple. They would not do so if the hardware was as bad as you say.



That's simply not true. iLoks are an unfortunate requirement to use some pretty awesome software. Either you don't mind them, and use them with indifference... or you DO mind them, and use them with annoyance. Either way, you suck it up and use them.

And that's what makes this whole post just so much pissing into the wind... :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (May 5, 2013)

CobraTrumpet @ Sun May 05 said:


> And that's what makes this whole post just so much pissing into the wind... :lol:



On that we agree.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 5, 2013)

The best anti-piracy is good service and frequent updates.
People buy this type of product for convenience or exclusivity. Digital stuff by definition can't be exclusive, so, as developers, you're all stuck competing for convenience, and pirates have you beat in that arena. They always will, too. After all, what's more convenient than free and persistently available? Here's what: make the customer value your time more than the convenience of just having the product. They can get the product anywhere for nothing, but they can't get your skill and whatever services you can offer from anywhere else.

The emergent software business model focuses on subscriptions and micro-transactions. For a vision of the future, just look at China; nobody buys software there, but they do buy inexpensive micro-updates, individual enhancements or features, and subscribe to useful services. Figure out how to get that model to work with music software and you'll not only have an untapped goldmine all to yourself, but also never have to worry about software piracy again.


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## gregjazz (May 5, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ Sun May 05 said:


> The best anti-piracy is good service and frequent updates.


Well said--I agree completely!


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## ptrickf (May 6, 2013)

gregjazz @ Mon 06 May said:


> Plasuma!!! @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > The best anti-piracy is good service and frequent updates.
> ...


Unfortunately that did not help Tracy Collins and the Solid State Symphony, although not a reason not to do it (btw. you and Tracy are great examples). I'm not sure why anyone would be insulted by copy protection schemes. My ire would be reserved for the thieves.

Patrick.


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## mk282 (May 6, 2013)

CobraTrumpet @ 6.5.2013 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing is "[email protected]#t" that actually works and by your own admission, yours does.
> ...



+1

iLok is shit. The damn thing doesn't work in every USB port you put it in! Like, I have 6 USB ports on my motherboard, and sometimes for convenience I have to reorder cables (because of length and the like), and those ports which remain... I put iLok there, and the bloody thing won't work! Then I have to play whack-a-mole to find which goddamn USB port the bloody thing "likes" enough to work in it.


It's a piece of shit hardware with even worse software back-end. I hate the fucking thing.


So, I don't care how "it never fails" some of you guys. The opposite is definitely true as well, iLok is not without its own issues and the passive "works for me" attitude is not helping.


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## NYC Composer (May 6, 2013)

mk282 @ Mon May 06 said:


> That's simply not true. iLoks are an unfortunate requirement to use some pretty awesome software. Either you don't mind them, and use them with indifference... or you DO mind them, and use them with annoyance. Either way, you suck it up and use them.
> 
> And that's what makes this whole post just so much pissing into the wind... :lol:



+1

iLok is [email protected]#t. The damn thing doesn't work in every USB port you put it in! Like, I have 6 USB ports on my motherboard, and sometimes for convenience I have to reorder cables (because of length and the like), and those ports which remain... I put iLok there, and the bloody thing won't work! Then I have to play whack-a-mole to find which [email protected]#M USB port the bloody thing "likes" enough to work in it.


It's a piece of [email protected]#t hardware with even worse software back-end. I hate the [email protected]#king thing.


So, I don't care how "it never fails" some of you guys. The opposite is definitely true as well, iLok is not without its own issues and the passive "works for me" attitude is not helping.[/quote]

Sorry as I am about your troubles with iLok, it's not a "passive 'works for me' attitude"- it's simply my experience. I've never had an iLok issue.


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## Pedro Camacho (May 6, 2013)

We need a "STEAM" for sample libraries.
With Permanent Cloud downloading support.

Nowadays I ONLY buy games on Steam because I have no fear of ever loosing them. They also have great discounts now and then...

Many developers are still sloppy in providing paying costumers a way to redownload libraries after a HDD failure, 2 years after a purchase.

This IS the solution.


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

Pedro Camacho @ Mon May 06 said:


> We need a "STEAM" for sample libraries. With Permanent Cloud downloading support.


to me this is perfect solution!


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2013)

mk282 @ Mon May 06 said:


> iLok is shit. The damn thing doesn't work in every USB port you put it in! Like, I have 6 USB ports on my motherboard, and sometimes for convenience I have to reorder cables (because of length and the like), and those ports which remain... I put iLok there, and the bloody thing won't work! Then I have to play whack-a-mole to find which goddamn USB port the bloody thing "likes" enough to work in it.
> 
> 
> It's a piece of shit hardware with even worse software back-end. I hate the fucking thing.
> ...



It works in every USB port in my 10 year old Belkin hub and those on my computer so perhaps what you are connecting the iLok to is the p.o.s.

And I am not being passive, I am saying actively that IMHO iLok works well for most users that I have talked to.

I stated a thread on GS, same s here, when I took this gig called I AM Here To Help You WIth EastWest Support. It is now 615 posts long and I can't remember even one of them relating a bad experience with iLok, although they complain about lots of other stuff.

What I don't like is that if there were to be a problem I cannot pick up the phone and call Pace and talk to someone but that is true of a number of software companies.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2013)

Also, police will tell you that most thieves look for easy targets so if you have an alarm system and/or a dog, sure you may still get ripped off but the odds become much more in your favor.

Dongles accomplish the same thing . They make it harder for the casual pirate.


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

> It works in every USB port in my 10 year old Belkin hub and those on my computer so perhaps what you are connecting the iLok to is the p.o.s.


Again, I accept many people have no issues with iLok - lucky for them. Unfortunately many people also have problems. All you have to do is search 'iLok USB' and you'll find hundreds to thousands of posts of people who have done everything PACE asks - installed drivers, installed software, put in the dongle - nothing. Personally, If I had a large customer base I would not feel comfortable forcing such a scheme onto them unless I knew there was a near 100% success rate, and that I could support or compensate those that have problems with quickly.

My PC is solid. It's hand built and I have zero other issues on it. All my other USB 2.0/3.0 devices have functioned perfectly - drives, scanners, printers, input devices, tablets, phones, audio interfaces, etc. all works flawlessly - my iLok has not. I have tried powered USB hubs, I've tried the USB ports on the motherboard, I've tried the ports on the case. Sometimes iLok works great. Sometimes it acts as though it's not plugged in and I have to reboot countless times. I've reduced the frequency of this by changing USB power settings (something PACE's installer should really do itself). I have also gone through two iLok keys now, both failed the same way - the blue light would remain on and the PC would not pick up the device. Both times was an incredible pain to get new licenses up and running. The first time I had ZDT, the second time I did not make the same mistake (again just google search around the internet for people's experiences with ZDT).



EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 06 said:


> I stated a thread on GS, same s here, when I took this gig called I AM Here To Help You WIth EastWest Support. It is now 615 posts long and I can't remember even one of them relating a bad experience with iLok, although they complain about lots of other stuff. What I don't like is that if there were to be a problem I cannot pick up the phone and call Pace and talk to someone but that is true of a number of software companies.


A quick search finds a lot of threads on SoundsOnline regarding iLok/Play issues. Also many threads on other forums such as Gearslutz, KVR, etc. Even more customers who are completely dissatisfied with iLok for many reasons (cost, instability, hassle) and vowed never to buy from a company again, especially when pirates have cracked it and have truoble-free experiences. I regards to PACE and phone support, when the company is the specific reason that someone cannot get software they legitimately purchased to work, they should be making themselves available for instant phone support.



> Dongles accomplish the same thing . They make it harder for the casual pirate.


Again, a quick search of the internet finds cracked copies of most iLok (and other dongle) protected software. It is no harder for the 'casual pirate' to get - When Billy searches 'Pro Tools' on a pirate site, his download comes fully pre-cracked with instructions on how to get it up and running with minimum fuss - this is what pirates rely on to make their money on the file sharing/advertisement sites.

Dongles do make it harder for the core pirate groups to crack (I'm not talking about the public pirate groups - they're just delivery systems - I'm talking about the high end hacker groups that do this for themselves/fun/kudos). But it makes it no harder than a watermark does - either will require significant effort to workaround, and both have disadvantages (dongle - have to be cracked each update, watermark - have to use fresh stolen payment details on each update). The difference is that a watermark generally doesn't affect the end user. A watermark never stops them opening the software they just sank money into because their USB port isn't one of the few tested. A watermark never breaks and certainly doesn't require you to take out an insurance scheme for when your mass produced, cheaply made USB device inevitably breaks.


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## mk282 (May 6, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ 6.5.2013 said:


> It works in every USB port in my 10 year old Belkin hub and those on my computer so perhaps what you are connecting the iLok to is the p.o.s.



Definitely not, it's a high-end Asus motherboard which works SPLENDIDLY. I have tried various USB sticks, wireless adapters, etc. in all USB ports of that motherboard, THEY ALL WORK IN ANY AND ALL USB PORTS! EXCEPT the iLok, which is being a diva and picky about it. Which is enough for me to call this iLok thingie a piece of SHIT.

Try again. Or just admit that iLok is not perfect. There are tons of people who had issues with it, a simple Google search will show you. Turning your eyes blind on it doesn't make it any less true.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2013)

If you simply Google search "my GE washing machine moves its location by itself in the middle of the night" you might find lots of people saying they have experienced it

The dongles from iLok, Steinberg, and Logic Pro (until Apple swapped it our for a larger dongle called the Macintosh computer) have survived with lots of reputable companies relying on them for a fair amount of years now because they protect the companies and the vast majority of users do not have major issues with them.

It is quire simple. Things that do not work well do not survive in the marketplace for long periods of time.

I don't care which method developers use if it makes them feel less vulnerable. I don't place my personal convenience above the common good.


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## mk282 (May 6, 2013)

I don't care how many companies relies on iLok and how well it has "survived", AT ALL. What I care is how it works for me. And so far, I haven't been terribly excited about it - and I'm not the only one, far from it.


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## guitarman1960 (May 6, 2013)

I still think that the psychology of software being 'virtual' rather than a physical product is the main reason that lots of otherwise law abiding citizens don't have a problem using pirate software. People who would never in a million years even contemplate stealing a a 10p packet of sweets from a shop have no problem 'stealing' software worth thousands of £'s.
To me 'cloud' based sunbscription services etc may be convenient for the company's selling the wares, but to me downloadable software just smacks of companies wanting to cut their costs even further and not even wanting to give you a shiny box with fancy graphics and a dvd for your not inconsiderable sum of cash. These days everything seems to revovle around companies cutting costs and cutting out anything they don't actually need to give you for your money. I hated it when they started not giving you printed manuals in the software box and expected you to print your own from a f**cking pdf, on your own paper and using your own expensive ink cartridges after you've just spent x hundred bucks on their DVD.
Then they wonder why people don'r mind pirating the stuff. Software, for all it's convenience, has dug it's own grave in my book.
As I said before the real answer is a return to hardware, but that will never happen while companies don't actually want to 'make' anything cause it's too expensive.
How many pirated versions of an Access Virus synth do you see? Answer- NONE!


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2013)

mk282 @ Mon May 06 said:


> I don't care how many companies relies on iLok and how well it has "survived", AT ALL. What I care is how it works for me. And so far, I haven't been terribly excited about it - and I'm not the only one, far from it.



I was going to make a pointed comment but I think actually yours speaks for itself.


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## mk282 (May 6, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ 6.5.2013 said:


> I hated it when they started not giving you printed manuals in the software box and expected you to print your own from a f**cking pdf, on your own paper and using your own expensive ink cartridges after you've just spent x hundred bucks on their DVD.



So don't print it. PDFs are perfectly readable on-screen. :D



guitarman1960 @ 6.5.2013 said:


> As I said before the real answer is a return ti hardware, but that will never happen while companies don't actually want to 'make' anything cause it's too expensive.



Can you really imagine how much would a hardware variant of Kontakt cost? Too freaking much. That's why it won't happen



guitarman1960 @ 6.5.2013 said:


> How many pirated versions of an Access Virus synth do you see? Answer- NONE!



Sorry, but Virus isn't something particularly exciting really. We have better VSTi today than what TI offers.



EastWest Lurker @ 6.5.2013 said:


> mk282 @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care how many companies relies on iLok and how well it has "survived", AT ALL. What I care is how it works for me. And so far, I haven't been terribly excited about it - and I'm not the only one, far from it.
> ...



Yes, it speaks that an experience from unsatisfied customer is just as valid as satisfied customer's.


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 06 said:


> If you simply Google search "my GE washing machine moves its location by itself in the middle of the night" you might find lots of people saying they have experienced it


a straw-man argument not really helping anyone a google search of 'aliens have visited us and probe me regularly' gives you probably-more hits than both together


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2013)

Hector, you are wrong about me. I bought an iLok when I first got Altiverb, long before I worked for EW. An I used the Logic XS key for many, many years before that and never complained.

Once again, I am in favor of whatever helps developers feel secure because I do not value my personal convenience over the overall health of the industry.


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## guitarman1960 (May 6, 2013)

> Can you really imagine how much would a hardware variant of Kontakt cost? Too freaking much. That's why it won't happen.



Well. N.I. already make nice hardware with Maschine etc, so don't see why hardware would be impossible if they had the will to do it. And Sample Libraries could be supplied built into some kind of hard drive which they would need in order to function. Massive hard-drives are cheap nowadays, so I don't see this as an impossible route to explore.

Like I said, when companies don't want to give you anything tangible because it's too 'expensive' for them, they reap what they sow.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 6, 2013)

I use an iLok, thing works fine on this hub with 3 other dongles and 2 MIDI devices.

But I hate it. Activating libraries is a right pain in the butt, any license issues I have take days to fix, and ZDT is extortion - I have to pay for insurance that only benefits the guys I bought the libraries from. 

That's like buying a car, paying to have a mandatory radar dish installed on the hood so the dealer can keep track of the vehicle, and then being required to pay for the dish's internet access or the thing won't run. Yeah, I can drive with it on there. Yeah, it works fine when it works. But if I run into a thunderstorm or go into a tunnel, my car shuts down.

Far from a good solution. No matter how you look at it, it's a problem that the end user shouldn't have to bear.


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## scientist (May 6, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Mon May 06 said:


> Like I said, when companies don't want to give you anything tangible because it's too 'expensive' for them, they reap what they sow.



this goes both ways, though. imo physical packaging is a waste of money and environmental resources. not to mention the printing involved costs a fair bit of money that - given the option - i'd rather keep. a good example of a company doing this right is ableton: pay for the software as digital download and if you want a box, discs, and manual, it's an extra $50.


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Mon May 06 said:


> Like I said, when companies don't want to give you anything tangible because it's too 'expensive' for them, they reap what they sow.


i think you also have to factor in the demand for such a device from consumers


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## guitarman1960 (May 6, 2013)

Agreed it would not be as convenient and would also be more expensive, but it would stop piracy which is what we are talking about. I don't think companies or consumers can have their cake and eat it.
Things that exist only as software can be pirated, and there's no way round that.

I am probably a bit of a luddite though, LOL
Although I eventually bought an ipod and appreciate it's 'convenience', I also have a massive vinyl record collection, and still buy new albums on vinyl when I can. Not so convenient, but an ipod bears no comparison to listening to the vinyl and having the beautiful printed sleeve artwork in your hands while listening.
Am i envious of people who downloaded a pirated version for free of the latest Hendrix album? No, because I bought the real thing on vinyl, with the beautiful artwork, and that can't be pirated.


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Mon May 06 said:


> Agreed it would not be as convenient and would also be more expensive, but it would stop piracy which is what we are talking about. I don't think companies or consumers can have their cake and eat it.


i do have to be agreed with your vinyl example about having something physical that can't be pirated is a great thing, but i also think that the average pirate does not care that they don't have the vinyl copy


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## Darthmorphling (May 6, 2013)

ptrickf @ Sun May 05 said:


> I'm not sure why anyone would be insulted by copy protection schemes. My ire would be reserved for the thieves.
> 
> Patrick.



The same reason I am insulted when I leave a store and they ask to see my receipt before I leave.


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## Mike Greene (May 6, 2013)

hector @ Mon May 06 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, when companies don't want to give you anything tangible because it's too 'expensive' for them, they reap what they sow.
> ...


Hector's not alone. There have been a few companies who made specialized host hardware for Kontakt, but I don't think any are still in business. It just isn't anything that anyone wants.

Even with boxes and packaging, several developers have polled their users about whether they prefer their libraries be delivered via download or via DVD's and the results were overwhelmingly in favor of downloads. Separate from that, I remember talking with Kyle from Nine Volt Audio about five years ago. Nine Volt offered a choice of either DVD or download _for the same price,_ yet Kyle told me almost everybody chose download. And that was five years ago.

In my own case, I have a bunch of DVD's of Realivox pressed and ready to go. Not one person has asked for them. Granted, I don't make it obvious on my website that DVDs are an option . . . but still, no has even *asked*.

So it's not a case of developers being cheap and greedy. It's a matter of customer demand.


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## Mike Greene (May 6, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ Sun May 05 said:


> The best anti-piracy is good service and frequent updates.


I've heard this a lot, but I've never really understood it.

I understand "good service" if someone has an installation issue. But . . . I spent a lot of time carefully putting together installation instructions and making everything as logical as possible. So it's rare that "service" even becomes an issue. So does this mean my efforts to make the installation process as easy as possible is hurting my sales?

Because other than during installation, how much "service" does a customer ever need? If he can't figure out how to make the library do what he wants, that sounds like a poorly configured library to me. Or a manual that's too long or poorly written. Because with an intelligently designed GUI and a concise and well written manual, things should go pretty smoothly without the need to email the developer with a bunch of questions.

"Frequent Updates" is something I don't understand either, even though I hear this a lot. What exactly are these frequent updates? Tuning fixes? Loop fixes? Patches that don't load properly? Not to make this all about me, but I spent a ton of time checking and _double_ checking tunings and loops with Realivox. I *paid* beta testers to test every single sample. So again, does this mean I harmed my own sales by doing my best to make my first release a good one?

I understand the notion that new features can be added to enhance a library, and I'll grant that in the case of Realivox, there are a few I have in mind. But they're not groundbreaking, because again, I tried really hard to make it right the first time. So if I add a new polyphonic legato feature, it's not like the old version with monophonic legato is now useless. Because although polypohonic legato would be nice, it's not like that's what finally makes the library cool.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are certain markets (games, etc.) where good service and frequent updates are a good anti-piracy strategy. But in this field of high end sample libraries, unless an initial release has a lot of flaws, I don't see it being a factor.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Mon May 06 said:


> ptrickf @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure why anyone would be insulted by copy protection schemes. My ire would be reserved for the thieves.
> ...



That is the price you pay for living in this era when so many steal. Or maybe not more thieves, but there is less societal condemnation of it.

I am not offended. I am proud that they see I am NOT a thief.


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## scientist (May 6, 2013)

well, this just happened: adobe moves to subscription only business model. not necessarily a solution for sample developers as adobe has a much, much larger customer base, but an interesting move towards legitimizing all users.


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## guitarman1960 (May 6, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Mon May 06 said:


> hector @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > guitarman1960 @ Mon May 06 said:
> ...



Fair enough. I know downloads are popular. Probably because it can be instant, and you don't have to wait for delivery by post, which is understandable.
I guess I'm still hankering for the good old days to return, when my home studio was a room full of flash looking hardware that had a big wow factor, as opposed to a laptop, a couple of interfaces, midi keyboard and monitors. Oh well.
That's progress I guess.
For all the convenience and amazing features of software, and the internet, I can't help feeling that we've also lost quite a lot that was magical about being a gearhead and building a studio.
The internet and software instruments are great in many ways, but that does come with a cost, one of which is piracy.


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## Guy Rowland (May 6, 2013)

scientist @ Mon May 06 said:


> well, this just happened: adobe moves to subscription only business model. not necessarily a solution for sample developers as adobe has a much, much larger customer base, but an interesting move towards legitimizing all users.



Wow, that's the end of me getting any new version of Audition, then. I think subs are an interesting option for some, but I won't touch 'em. I wonder how this will work out for them, business-wise.

On a general note, the more I think about it the more I like the idea of dongles more in theory than in practice. I think, after 10 pages of discussion, they are the best answer out there, but no current solution has implemented the concept well enough. Here's what I'd hope for:

1. 2 licenses per purchase.

2. Liceneses stored / backed up in the cloud, recovery possible for lost / stolen devices.

3. In an ideal world, the option to store the licences on a machine, but that might compromise security too much - I'd live with 1 and 2.

Here's another thought. One reason why people hate dongles is that they give the legitmate user nothing - they're just a PITA that has to be suffered. What if there was a way to add value to having a dongle? Perhaps each dongle would come with, say, 32gb of encrypted storage space for the user to fill with whatever they want, tied to a secure cloud backup. You could pair 2 dongles, so that they'd real time sync themselves. Dunno, just an idea off the top of my head, there might be better ones out there.

I think there might be something in it though. Dongles have NEVER been attractive, they just feel like a tax on the honest at best. If a consortium could make a dongle with iLok-grade encryption with some positive aspect to it.... hmmm....


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## Guy Rowland (May 6, 2013)

Mike Greene - if everything works perfectly from the word go cos you've planned it brilliantly, you've gone straight to the top of the class! The vast majority of products though come out of the gate in a less-than-perfect state, so for those what happens next is very important to brand loyalty.


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## Mike Greene (May 6, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Mon May 06 said:


> Mike Greene - if everything works perfectly from the word go cos you've planned it brilliantly, you've gone straight to the top of the class! The vast majority of products though come out of the gate in a less-than-perfect state, so for those what happens next is very important to brand loyalty.


I don't mean to imply that Realivox is perfect from the get go. (Even though it is! :mrgreen: ) I'm just saying that it seems like a weird business model to have flaws so severe in the early release that a pirate decides he needs to buy rather than download from a torrent site, just because the updates are so necessary. That sounds like a premature release to me. (The Ladies do not like premature releases!) 

To be clear, I do understand minor fixes are standard procedure (even with me) and of course new features may get added. But these are really what make the difference in the mind of a pirate?


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

...


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## mk282 (May 6, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ 6.5.2013 said:


> Here's another thought. One reason why people hate dongles is that they give the legitmate user nothing - they're just a PITA that has to be suffered. What if there was a way to add value to having a dongle? Perhaps each dongle would come with, say, 32gb of encrypted storage space for the user to fill with whatever they want, tied to a secure cloud backup. You could pair 2 dongles, so that they'd real time sync themselves. Dunno, just an idea off the top of my head, there might be better ones out there.



THIS is a good idea, and one I would approve. Along with it being any USB stick, like the current Waves scheme.


That I wouldn't object. USB stick broken? No worries, your licences are backed up in the cloud, along with your encrypted data. Get a new stick, download data to it, go.


Very good, Guy. That idea is MUCH better than this iLok shit.


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## woodsdenis (May 6, 2013)

No one can absolutely claim that iLok is 100% perfect
BUT
There is and iLok hanging out of the back of a ProTools computer in every major studio, scoring stage, dubbing room etc. on the planet, if it was that bad and unreliable dont you think they would have ditched it by now.

Lets get real here.


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

...


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## valexnerfarious (May 6, 2013)

Keep in mind also that most of studio computers never connect to the internet


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## woodsdenis (May 6, 2013)

hector @ Mon May 06 said:


> woodsdenis @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > No one can absolutely claim that iLok is 100% perfect
> ...



Seriously can you at least point to these " thousands of posts". Major studios may well be in a minority, but you can be sure of this, reliability is paramount in any equipment they use. You seem to be creating a universal issue just because you had a bad experience.

I dont understand the comment "pre built macs" all macs by definition are pre built, in the sense they have the same basic hardware. Are you saying on your custom built PC it didn't work ? Thats a completely different ball game.


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## Daryl (May 6, 2013)

For many years iLok was a disaster wen using Windows. Having said that, I haven't had an issue for the last 3-4 years, although updating has not always been as easy as it should be.

FWIW I have never had any issues with eLicenser (formerly Syncrosoft) but I do know many people, mostly Mac users, as it happens, who did have a huge number of problems a few years ago.

In all honesty, I think that the dongle thing is not usually a problem for people who have a studio and just leave it plugged in. The people who have issues seem mostly to be the ones who need to move the dongle around from machine to machine.

D


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

...


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## DocMidi657 (May 6, 2013)

I would not mind dongles so much if developers would simply give you two of them when you purchase their libraries. 

I can't tell you how many times I almost had a heart attack when I carried my dongle for VSl to work and then came home and could not find it in my laptop bag...because I put it in my jeans so I would not forget it

I thought about putting it on my key chain but I can't tell you how many times I can't find my keys when I 'm in hurry. Not doing that. I called VSL to see if I could purchase another one at a reduced price and was told no.

And I don't buy the argument "would you say the same thing if you misplaced your guitar?" My issue is I am not buying a product I am buying "a license" to use and create music with a developers sound recordings. If I lose my state drivers license I can get another one because I already paid for the right to drive on the roads.

I certainly do not want developers being pirated but for the guys that are paying and supporting you , a least make it easier on us with the dongles by giving us two as a lot of us work in at least two different locations. We don't want to sweat losing the dang thing. 

Philosophically...How do you lose a license anyway unless it's revoked or expired?

Just my thoughts,
Dave


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## woodsdenis (May 6, 2013)

"I could, but it's easier for you to just google 'ilok problem' and look at the forum posts from the 370,000 odd hits. Here's a sample from just the top:"



If you really want to do this then google Kontakt problems, you get 231,000 hits. So lets start a thread based on that premise to stop using Kontakt. Issues with iLok or any other software may be user or hardware specific, I don't know. No software/hardware is perfect, we all know this.

The general consensus on this thread is that most of us who use iLok do not have issues with it working on their systems. I have have used it for 10 years and have had zero issues and in all the studios I have worked in there was never an issue with iLok, loads of issues with other things mind you. I have never seen a session stopped because of an iLok. There are many other things less reliable than an iLok in the DAW world.

Rather than saying iLok is s**t can you give us a solid solution to this. iLok maybe flawed but it seems to be the best option out there IF you are going down the hardware protection route.


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## hector (May 6, 2013)

...


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## Edward_Martin (May 6, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 06 said:


> I am not offended. I am proud that they see I am NOT a thief.



It is obvious your biased my friend, but you say you've been hassling with dongles long before you had a dog in this fight, my condolences. By your logic you would deem it okay for all of us to have submit to regular audits by our government to make sure nothing in our homes is breaking code? Or is that too extreme? Because last I checked EW was only a company, not a governing body and their essentially doing just that.

Now, you say your in favor of a company doing whatever it must to survive in this hostile environment we live in, but last I checked LA Scoring Strings is still sitting pretty at $999 whilst Hollywood Strings, which by comparison has more than what LA Scoring Strings and LASS LS have COMBINED, is currently selling at $599 at your store. The kicker here is that LASS made its rounds through the net YEAR ONE, and if I can be so bold as to speculate from that, as many here seem keen to do, they haven't seen any incentive to lower their prices as of yet (e.i. poor sales due to pirating), not even to compete with you fine gentlemen.

Now, don't take that personally, I own several EW products myself, if only because the price and quality outweighs my burning hatred of dongles and other intrusive forms of anti-piracy protection (watermarks are fine in my book), but my BS detector senses that part of this whole anti-piracy crusade is merely a scapegoat for what is really causing libraries to flop for some companies: poor customer support, overpricing, intrusive anti-piracy protection, terrible marketing and fierce competition to name a few. Piracy I would wager accounts for a very minimal % of lost revenue from hobbyist who can only afford 1-2 libraries a year anyhow, I seriously doubt professionals are stealing this stuff. Maybe its ego, not wanting to admit to yourselves your product isn't up to snuff with what the competition has to offer, so blaming piracy is all too easy.


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## Darthmorphling (May 6, 2013)

Hypothetical scenario:

You are choosing between two sample libraries that are equal in every aspect except for one. Sample library A has no copy protection and sample library B does. Which do you buy?

Everyone who claims they are ok with copy protection to protect the developers should choose B.

Myself, I choose A.


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## valexnerfarious (May 6, 2013)

I honestly hate to say this but to me i personally feel that pandora's box has been opened and it would be about impossible to close it...i mean from the way it seems over the past few years its not a matter of if it will be pirated its a matter of when it will be...i mean we have tried dongles,we have tried watermarks,we have tried ilok's..wether its a sample library, DAW,plugins...nothing seems to stop it..what i feel we must do is to create clever enough ways to slow it down long enough to were people to go in the hole and go bankrupt and make sales untill the piracy does happen..some libraries have been more fortunate than others to not be pirated yet and thats good buti hope that no more do..its seems like now its all about damage control....people in school always told me it doesnt matter how smart or talented you are,there is always someone out there who is smarter


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Mon May 06 said:


> Hypothetical scenario:
> 
> You are choosing between two sample libraries that are equal in every aspect except for one. Sample library A has no copy protection and sample library B does. Which do you buy?
> 
> ...



There is no such thing as "two sample libraries that are equal in every aspect".

If there were, I would factor in my relationship with the developer, the stability of the company, etc. _way_ ahead of whether or not it had copy protection. That would simply never be a determinative factor for me and never has.


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## gsilbers (May 6, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Mon May 06 said:


> I honestly hate to say this but to me i personally feel that pandora's box has been opened and it would be about impossible to close it...i mean from the way it seems over the past few years its not a matter of if it will be pirated its a matter of when it will be...i mean we have tried dongles,we have tried watermarks,we have tried ilok's..wether its a sample library, DAW,plugins...nothing seems to stop it..what i feel we must do is to create clever enough ways to slow it down long enough to were people to go in the hole and go bankrupt and make sales untill the piracy does happen..some libraries have been more fortunate than others to not be pirated yet and thats good buti hope that no more do..its seems like now its all about damage control....people in school always told me it doesnt matter how smart or talented you are,there is always someone out there who is smarter




in my opinion its because the software piracy control is only working against technology of hacking it instead of controlling the distribution of piracy. 

some developers go after some of the bit torrent sites but nothing big and unified imo. 

i think , imo is for developers to upload their products to the bit torrent sites themselves >8o 

whaaaaat!?! you say?

yes, become a hacker yourself. sign on with different accounts /users and upload 
hacked products. make it look like other products hacked. its always a few hackers who do this. take for example native instrument products. those are the easiest to get. the hackers already got the challenge and response thing hacked generically so every NI prodcut is hacked and will get hacked as soon as it comes out just becuase its using the NI installers and protection. . 
so if your library uses the NI protection just upload a hacked version of it. but instead of working fine have it so the GUI /intrument wont load the samples. 
then another one but its a little of also, like doesn't load all the files. 
corrupt files etc. maybe viruses that will screw a DAW (that gets a little evil-er)
flood the torrent sites with various versions. 

then sign in the torrent site and post saying it works, how cool it is. 
then sign on as another user and and write yes this thing rocks. make up fixes. etc

point of all this;

kids want to make music. if they are spending all the time downloading and troubleshooting , downloading again then they just jump to the next product. 

its just another road block. musicians will be ok with serial number which is easy. 
then maybe follow a few instructions to challenge reposnse type of hacks but after that, doing wierd coding , extended instructions, dont think so imo. 


another deterrent. its has its cost but imo cheaper than loosing to piracy.


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## woodsdenis (May 6, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue May 07 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Hypothetical scenario:
> ...



As an addendum, given a choice with a plugin (Izotope spring to mind) whether to use iLok or serial number protection I choose iLok for the convenience.


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## Darthmorphling (May 6, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 06 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Hypothetical scenario:
> ...



I guess my mindset is that I'm not a criminal and there is no reason I should ever have to prove it. Whereas you are not a criminal and you are ok with constantly having to prove it.

o-[][]-o


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## EastWest Lurker (May 6, 2013)

When I go to the airport, I have to remove my shoes and belt to prove I am not a terrorist. When I use a credit card, I have to show my driver's license to prove I did not steal someone's card.

Sign of the times, babe, sign of the times


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## valexnerfarious (May 6, 2013)

gsilbers @ Mon May 06 said:


> valexnerfarious @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly hate to say this but to me i personally feel that pandora's box has been opened and it would be about impossible to close it...i mean from the way it seems over the past few years its not a matter of if it will be pirated its a matter of when it will be...i mean we have tried dongles,we have tried watermarks,we have tried ilok's..wether its a sample library, DAW,plugins...nothing seems to stop it..what i feel we must do is to create clever enough ways to slow it down long enough to were people to go in the hole and go bankrupt and make sales untill the piracy does happen..some libraries have been more fortunate than others to not be pirated yet and thats good buti hope that no more do..its seems like now its all about damage control....people in school always told me it doesnt matter how smart or talented you are,there is always someone out there who is smarter
> ...



the thing about about uploading a sample library or whatever to a torrent site with a virus attatched and signing into another account and saying that the object is clean is that people seem to trust comments and people who have uploaded the longest rather than a newbie account


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## gsilbers (May 6, 2013)

valexnerfarious @ Mon May 06 said:


> gsilbers @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > valexnerfarious @ Mon May 06 said:
> ...



True somewhat . There is ways of making it work . One way knowing


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## Hans Adamson (May 6, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 06 said:


> When I go to the airport, I have to remove my shoes and belt to prove I am not a terrorist. When I use a credit card, I have to show my driver's license to prove I did not steal someone's card.
> 
> Sign of the times, babe, sign of the times


That's a great analogy. Who is to blame for the security controls at the airports? The airport - or the terrorists that makes it necessary? Would you rather fly an airline without security checks? 
/Hans


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## Peter Alexander (May 6, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Mon May 06 said:


> Hypothetical scenario:
> 
> You are choosing between two sample libraries that are equal in every aspect except for one. Sample library A has no copy protection and sample library B does. Which do you buy?
> 
> ...



With respect, as you are still growing in this area, I think you're really missing the mark. First, I agree with Jay. No two libraries are equal in any respect. No string libraries are equal. They all sound different from each other. 

Second, the question a writer must ask and answer when buying any library is, "How's it going to advance me over what I now have?"

So what if there's CP? I have both iLok and Syncrosoft keys, and somewhere, a WIBU key. It goes with the territory. No biggie.


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## Guy Rowland (May 6, 2013)

mk282 @ Mon May 06 said:


> Guy Rowland @ 6.5.2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's another thought. One reason why people hate dongles is that they give the legitmate user nothing - they're just a PITA that has to be suffered. What if there was a way to add value to having a dongle? Perhaps each dongle would come with, say, 32gb of encrypted storage space for the user to fill with whatever they want, tied to a secure cloud backup. You could pair 2 dongles, so that they'd real time sync themselves. Dunno, just an idea off the top of my head, there might be better ones out there.
> ...



Thanks Mark. Since this thread is supposed to be foucused on solutions and my top-of-the-head idea has one dongle-hating convert, I wonder if it's worth exploring a little further....

I don't know exactly what it is about iLok's encryption that has made it more robust than the others. But it seems to me that any dongle solution is pretty much a waste of time unless the encryption is at least as good as iLok's. I appreciate it may get hacked tomorrow, but it's lasted a helluva long time.

Maybe (and this will be a galling thought to some) any new initiative has to come from iLok themselves, unless there's a realistic road for a newcomer. (perhaps Syncrosoft could come up with a more robust version 2?) Either way, I'd imagine a dedicated key - rather than any USB key - would be more robust. That's fine with me, as long as the key works and isn't a PITA. I really like much of Waves' new licensing scheme, but I believe it got cracked on day 1, so not much use for its core purpose.

So I forsee a totally new marketing angle on it. You buy keys in pairs, by default they are linked together and you register the pair to your account. Perhaps the storage space should be bigger - 64gb (price shouldn't be too much of an obstacle these days, they're as cheap as chips). That's a useful amount of space for working on an active project. You make it USB3, so transfer speeds are high. Then you can keep your active projects right there with your licenses, super-secure - you have them physically in 2 places, and in the cloud at all times. That's a helluva selling point.

The biggest drawback with this, it seems to me, is that it kind of invites sharing of products between 2 different people. Not sure what you can do about that... any ideas, anyone?

Also it would need some heavy duty support, from NI in particular. Realistically it would need to be built into K6 from the ground up - perhaps as an option, but nevertheless integrated.

All round that's a lot of hurdles. It's an attractive idea to me, but is it realistic?

EDIT - new thought. Is there a way when you first register your pair of iloks that it creates UNIQUE encryption for each owner? So hackers couldn't crack it and then it's game over - they'd need to crack pairs for every owner? I don't understand much about encryption, but that sounds like a great idea to me....


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## mk282 (May 7, 2013)

People seem to be confusing mark812 and mk282. I'm not Mark


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## Guy Rowland (May 7, 2013)

mk282 @ Tue May 07 said:


> People seem to be confusing mark812 and mk282. I'm not Mark



Oops, sorry mk282. I think this confusion could run and run....


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## mosso (May 7, 2013)

Here's an interesting approach to piracy a game dev took;

http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013...lator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/

A 93% piracy rate for a game without DRM that costs (wait for it) $8. Do have a read - it's hilarious and depressing at the same time.

I think the idea of STEAM for music software is great but it does depend on an internet connection for authentication. Indeed now that STEAM sell non-gaming software through their platform what's stopping them using it as it is now?

FWIW though I have no trouble with dongles.


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## guitarman1960 (May 7, 2013)

I would wager that most people who are looking for downloads of cracked/pirated software such as large and complex sample libraries aren't doing this in a casual way like those who download pirated games or cd's. It going to be people who already have some kind of decent setup to run it, and are probably semi serious hobbyists and pretty serious musicians who just simply can't afford xhundreds of bucks for the best software and libraries. The amount of people in the 'can't afford it' situation is probably quite large, especially in these terrible economic times, hence the market for cracking teams like AiR and Team Dynamics etc etc.
I seriously doubt professional composers who make their living from music are looking for cracked software, if so, then that is pretty disgusting.
I'm not saying it's right for poor musicians and hobbyists to download cracked software by the way, just can see why this would be the market for it.
Don't think uploading virus heavy non-working versions will put people off looking for a working version either really.
The genie is out of the bottle and can't be put back.


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## Guy Rowland (May 7, 2013)

Could someone give an overview of STEAM and how it might apply to sample libraries? I know nothing about computer games, so it's not on my radar at all...


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## Luca Capozzi (May 7, 2013)

I had an impressive piracy rate on my own products... especially on cheaper ones: Epic Pig Guiro and Pills. I don't believe anymore on "I'm poor, I cannot afford it" since I saw pirated versions of freewares too. The truth is that people don't wanna pay a dime for something intangible. The only persons who buy are those who have enough respect for other people work and who makes music for a living. I don't believe on "piracy is not stealing" excuse anymore. If I'm a developer who lives thanks to his products, if you download a pirated copy instead of buying it, you'll own my work without paying anything for it. This is stealing to me. 

My 2c,
Luca


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## hector (May 7, 2013)

...


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## mk282 (May 7, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ 7.5.2013 said:


> especially in these terrible economic times, hence the market for cracking teams like AiR and Team Dynamics etc etc.



Except AiR and Dynamics and others are not in it for the cash at all.


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## guitarman1960 (May 7, 2013)

mk282 @ Tue May 07 said:


> guitarman1960 @ 7.5.2013 said:
> 
> 
> > especially in these terrible economic times, hence the market for cracking teams like AiR and Team Dynamics etc etc.
> ...



I know, I didn't mean 'market' in the sense that they were selling cracked copies for money.

I have heard strong rumours that Steinberg have actually done a deal with Team AiR not to release cracked versions of the current Cubase until the next one comes out. Hoiw true that is, I guess we don't know, but very interesting nontheless.


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## Daryl (May 7, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue May 07 said:


> I have heard strong rumours that Team AiR have actually done a deal with Steinberg not to release cracked versions of the current Cubase until the next one comes out. Hoiw true that is, I guess we don't know, but very interesting nontheless.


There is no reason to crack any Steinberg sequencer, other than arrogance and conceit.

D


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## Daryl (May 7, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Tue May 07 said:


> Hypothetical scenario:
> 
> You are choosing between two sample libraries that are equal in every aspect except for one. Sample library A has no copy protection and sample library B does. Which do you buy?
> 
> ...


I buy which ever is the sample library that I need. If they really are the same, then it will come down to which has the most useful EULA.

D


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## Guy Rowland (May 7, 2013)

Hector - thanks for the explanation on STEAM. Sounds good... so how about the copy protection side of it? Is it robust?


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## Iostream (May 7, 2013)

Darthmorphling @ Mon May 06 said:


> Hypothetical scenario:
> 
> You are choosing between two sample libraries that are equal in every aspect except for one. Sample library A has no copy protection and sample library B does. Which do you buy?
> 
> ...



I think that depends on the copy protection. I have avoided ilok so far, and will continue to do so unless there is really no other option. But for non invasive copy protection, it's a non issue. I would be much more likely to base my decision on whether the library will actually show up in libraries vs having to file dive for samples.
As for ilok, i was just reading on gearslutz about someone who damaged their ilok and are frantically trying to get their software working before a gig right now. I have no problem with some sort of copy protection, I buy all of my libs. I have a major problem with invasive solutions that cause me to spend time or money thinking about the copy protection, or that cause me to not be able to use the software I have paid for.


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## R.Cato (May 7, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:


> Hector - thanks for the explanation on STEAM. Sounds good... so how about the copy protection side of it? Is it robust?



Has already been cracked. BUT games, which only runs on Steam are more difficult to crack and even if anyone cracks them it's still harder to use. Steam does try to develop some piracy solutions and they take piracy seriously. So yes, I personally am a Steam fanboy, not because of the copy protection, but the way Steam handles the whole software. It's so easy to find new products and update existing ones.

Nevertheless Steam also has its downsides. It costs quite some money to make your product available on it and sometimes it enjoys downloading a whole 15 gigabyte game again without any reason. Might be worth a look though.


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## valexnerfarious (May 7, 2013)

someone mentioned AIR and Dynamics..you are leaving out Audio P2P and Magnatrixx.....i remember a few years back EA and a few more game companies uploaded some games with viruses to the torrents to try to slow it down


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## mk282 (May 7, 2013)

There are a lot of groups out there, no need to name them all.


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## Guy Rowland (May 7, 2013)

R.Cato @ Tue May 07 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Hector - thanks for the explanation on STEAM. Sounds good... so how about the copy protection side of it? Is it robust?
> ...



Cheers... hmm, you've laid out the pros and cons well. Ultimately if it's already cracked, I'd say that puts it out of contention.

I asked a question a few posts back about encryption, does anyone know the answer to this one? Is there a way for encryption to be unique to each customer, thus making it impossible to be cracked en-masse?


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## Kejero (May 7, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:


> Ultimately if it's already cracked, I'd say that puts it out of contention.



Well, everything can be cracked. It's all just ones and zeros that can be "reverse engineered" relatively easily. Some more easily than others, and some could be really tough, but unfortunately there will always be douchebags who take pride in taking on such challenges.

Besides unwillingness to pay for a product, people also want quick and easy access to products. I believe that simply being able to log in somewhere and immediately download a product with a few clicks versus having to go through a purchase process that requires all sorts of input and possibly even a waiting period, can really make a difference. And if that service you log into is legal and helps you easily manage almost all your libraries, I'm convinced that you can put a price on that that a signifcant amount of people are willing to pay for.

I don't know any numbers concerning Steam, but it is my impression that it works well and it has a good reputation. I don't see why it wouldn't work for sample libraries. In fact, I think this is probably the best idea I've heard so far.


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## valexnerfarious (May 7, 2013)

the Steam is the best idea yet......but another company has used one and it was cracked


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## Guy Rowland (May 7, 2013)

Kejero @ Tue May 07 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Ultimately if it's already cracked, I'd say that puts it out of contention.
> ...



Maybe I'm not getting some of the finer points of STEAM - if it's cracked, it's cracked right? How is it still more inconvenient for the thief? I get that it has other advantages for the user, but I'm not convinced it's enough for an entirely new industry - sample libraries - to migrate.

People keep saying anything can be cracked, but iLok hasn't. Yet. Waves' new system was cracked in hours, iLok has been hanging in there for years. So not all encryption is created equal, it seems to me.

Still keen to hear from someone on the viability of unique encryption on a per-customer basis. If that's doable, then it sounds like a silver bullet.


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## gsilbers (May 7, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:


> Kejero @ Tue May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:
> ...



ilok2 you mean. cause regular ilok was cracked and the template to crack any ilok plug. 

yes, its true anything can be craked but as i said earlier, its about how much work its hapenning for the end illigal user. a serial number is easy. challenge and response (specially from NI) is easy. but custom copy protection which separates the software into different parts and a user will have to deal with coding and mid complex instructions then it will weed out more. 

so steam might be that (havent read baout it) but if it takes extra step for the end user then it will deter more piracy.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 7, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Mon May 06 said:


> Plasuma!!! @ Sun May 05 said:
> 
> 
> > The best anti-piracy is good service and frequent updates.
> ...



Software, as with any pure data medium, can be proliferated without any effort, and as a result is technically worth nothing in this economy. 
As a developer, if you don't have a service that improves the product after the customer has it, you are charging them the right to use something that you no longer want to put effort into. To many people, that pretty much justifies piracy - a pirate can put just as much effort into getting the product to the user as the developer does, and do it for free. Since neither the developer nor the pirate will update the product, they both appear to be merely distributors, only the pirate has more desirable prices.

Good support and frequent updates are services the developer can offer that a pirate can't. Charge for those instead of the product itself and piracy won't be an issue since, at that point, you're not selling the product; you're selling the accompanying services. To break into that model, some market research is required: what services do musicians want? No developers seem to have an answer for that, so their interim solution is to keep making software and trying to find new ways to protect it, often to the detriment of existing or potential users.


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## guitarman1960 (May 7, 2013)

Sorry to sound cynical but I wouldn't have thought people searching for 'free' pirated high end sample libraries could give a shit about good support and frequent updates. They get the core product for nothing, zip, nada, so who cares about support, there's usually a cracked version of any big updates available soon enough anyway.
I also think producers need to be careful of counting every pirated copy as if it's a lost sale. I would think the majority of people using pirated copies either could not afford to or wouldn't have forked out the cash for a legit version anyway, so they can not all be counted as if they are lost customers.


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## Mike Greene (May 7, 2013)

guitarman1960 @ Tue May 07 said:


> Sorry to sound cynical but I wouldn't have thought people searching for 'free' pirated high end sample libraries could give a [email protected]#t about good support and frequent updates. They get the core product for nothing, zip, nada, so who cares about support, there's usually a cracked version of any big updates available soon enough anyway.


Exactly. "Good support and frequent updates" is one of those oft repeated catch phrases that _sounds_ good, but I don't see how it can really have an impact on piracy.



guitarman1960 @ Tue May 07 said:


> I also think producers need to be careful of counting every pirated copy as if it's a lost sale. I would think the majority of people using pirated copies either could not afford to or wouldn't have forked out the cash for a legit version anyway, so they can not all be counted as if they are lost customers.


Absolutely. Lost sales to piracy can definitely be overstated, and speaking for myself, I do have to stop myself sometimes from spending *too* much time trying to prevent it. With that said, though, there's no denying that lost sales to piracy are still significant.


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## germancomponist (May 7, 2013)

As I said in another thread, all developers should establish an association that deals with this topic, makes well known filesharing locate and track the thieves .... .

Bad idea?


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## Plasuma!!! (May 7, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Tue May 07 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Tue May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry to sound cynical but I wouldn't have thought people searching for 'free' pirated high end sample libraries could give a [email protected]#t about good support and frequent updates. They get the core product for nothing, zip, nada, so who cares about support, there's usually a cracked version of any big updates available soon enough anyway.
> ...


You're missing my point. The services and updates _replace_ the product as the primary means of income. It's a completely different business model - you're making a free product that attracts users, and then charging users access to supplementary services and enhancements. To paraphrase Gabe Newell of Valve on the success of Steam, "Software is a service industry."

Those who don't understand that tackle it like a manufacturing business and lose out.

Piracy is a problem because manufacturing and distribution of software has a price-tag that can be completely bypassed with little to no effort, and if even one item is stolen, then the whole world can have it for free. That requires a DRM success rate of 100% or it fails completely, and even the best anti-theft systems in the world can't guarantee that for physical goods.
The best solution is to look for money elsewhere, since fighting with users for control over a market only distances you from your users and any potential customers.


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## hector (May 7, 2013)

...


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## Mike Greene (May 7, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ Tue May 07 said:


> Mike Greene @ Tue May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > guitarman1960 @ Tue May 07 said:
> ...


I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but how exactly does a sample developer make money supplying "service?" What exactly is someone who already has the samples and instruments going to pay for on a monthly basis? Bearing in mind that we're working within the constraints of Kontakt or UVI.


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## Guy Rowland (May 7, 2013)

iLok 1. I just did a test, searching for a popular library released 2-3 years ago which uses iLok 1 copy protection. I found nothing. Why hasn't that appeared on the torrent sites? Not saying that it hasn't been hacked, but that then just begs the question if it has... where are all the torrents? Hacking is a moot point if the torrents still don't appear, and in the case of the product I looked at, they haven't. (please don't reply with links - an explanation will suffice!)

People often cite EWQL cracked products, but the only ones I see are old NI ones. I find the argument that "anything can be cracked" not remotely compelling. As I said before, even if this is true, you can buy years of time with good protection, which will equate to serious revenue.

Just a general moan (not directed at Hector) - this thread is headed "solutions". While several have been suggested here in the past couple of pages alone, it's pretty boring to read the same general negative stuff that people have been saying since page 1 (if I read "each download does not equate to a lost sale" one more time, I'm gonna throw up - advance the bloody point, people!). If you can't come up with new ideas, then at least COMMENT constructively on new ideas? There's a ton of bright folks on VI-C, let's try to be helpful rather than just succumbing to lazy cynicism.


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## Mike Greene (May 7, 2013)

hector @ Tue May 07 said:


> If you've ever stomached taking a peek around pirate communities/forums one thing you'll notice is that there are a lot of pirates who obsessively 'collect' these libraries. They want the latest updates of everything (there are tons of threads asking for updated instruments, updated installers, etc.). There's also a kind of 'pride' on the low level distribution sites on having the latest and greatest. If you cut off the latest updates, people do hear that they're using older/inferior downloads (these vocal, entitled pirates constantly ask for the latest updates). If you're providing regular, meaningful updates and making them harder to obtain, you're adding a factor about your buying products that pirates constantly hear about but do not have access to. You're also making it much less appealing for a user to share their updates online if they know they could be cut off from future ones.


I know what you mean about the pride of some of the guys on these forums when it comes to having the latest and greatest. (I even have a couple paid memberships to a couple of the more exclusive pirate sites to keep tabs on what's going on.  )

But those are mostly the kids. How often have you seen any of these guys who beg for someone else to upload the latest version eventually say, _"Golly, I guess I'd better go ahead and just buy it, because I gotta have the latest version!"_ When their "Version 1" copy is working fine? I haven't seen that happen too many times. In fact, I can't recall any times. If they were willing to wait for a pirated version in the first place, I think they'd be willing to wait for an update as well. 

For example, I can think of one case on the paid forums where people were begging for a *year* for someone to post the upgrade/update of a certain library to no avail. For various reasons (mostly a testament to watermarking,) it never got uploaded. And during that time, I don't recall too many (if any) guys saying they went ahead and bought it because they had to have the latest greatest version. After all, version 1 still sounds pretty darn good.

Yet when the update of this library eventually got uploaded, the downloads were in the *thousands*. So apparently pirates, even the ones who want the latest version of everything, will still be patient. Especially if the alternative to patience is spending their own cash.


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## hector (May 7, 2013)

...


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## Iostream (May 7, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Tue May 07 said:


> For example, I can think of one case on the paid forums where people were begging for a *year* for someone to post the upgrade/update of a certain library to no avail. For various reasons (mostly a testament to watermarking,) it never got uploaded. And during that time, I don't recall too many (if any) guys saying they went ahead and bought it because they had to have the latest greatest version. After all, version 1 still sounds pretty darn good.
> 
> Yet when the update of this library eventually got uploaded, the downloads were in the *thousands*. So apparently pirates, even the ones who want the latest version of everything, will still be patient. Especially if the alternative to patience is spending their own cash.



This is what I see as the typical pirate, they aren't going to break down and buy it anyway, they are kids, and they don't have the cash even if they wanted to. Though I remember several people from college with pirated photoshop who eventually bought it, not because it was the best tool, or the cheapest (there are some great open source editors out there) but because they had been using it for years, and now that they could afford it, they bought what they knew. 
I certainly don't condone piracy, hell, considering the cost of libraries vs what hardware cost 10 years ago, its a steal already. But really, how much is piracy costing the industry? None of the people I know making music right now, even as a hobby are using pirated libs. In fact, if people are learning on pirated versions of your product, they might even be more likely to buy your product instead of a competitors when they do have money to put on the table. Maybe the answer is very low cost or free versions with a no commercial use license? Then the kids have something to learn on, and if they ever think of making money on it, they pay up for the full version.
My view is a little different, I work in open source and have for a very long time, but people are willing to pay for a supported product when they can afford to, and often times they are going to the same vendors who provided the free product they learned on.


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## mk282 (May 7, 2013)

+1 on everything hector said above.


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## Iostream (May 7, 2013)

And for what it's worth, I don't make any money off of my music, don't know that I ever will. I haven't tried. But I am happy to buy libraries because I enjoy using them, I can afford it, and I want the companies to be profitable and continue making more libraries. That said, I am not willing to deal with personal inconveniences over it either. I don't have to. Every time I have found a synth or library iloked or with some other asinine invasive copy protection, I have also found a suitable alternative that was easier to use, or didn't cost me extra money as a reward for not being a criminal.


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## kb123 (May 7, 2013)

hector @ Tue May 07 said:


> I think the thread's looking for a perfect solution that doesn't yet exist.



Completely agree. There is no perfect solution that will take account of all the various issues. It is also pretty clear that NI have no immediate plans to change Kontakt's protection, and most proposed solutions would require that to change.

In a thread set up to look at what can be done to combat piracy, its interesting to see a number of posts from members who really don't believe piracy is much of a problem for developers. The fact that it reduces sales at all is the equivalent to someone walking into a shop and helping themselves to the goods on display. If we can't even get agreement that there is a problem, and that piracy is wrong on a forum such as this, what hope is there out there in the real world.


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## Iostream (May 7, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Tue May 07 said:


> I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but how exactly does a sample developer make money supplying "service?" What exactly is someone who already has the samples and instruments going to pay for on a monthly basis? Bearing in mind that we're working within the constraints of Kontakt or UVI.



That depends on the company, for some, such as Spitfire, or VSL who are frequently releasing new libraries or updates to existing ones, I would gladly pay a reasonable monthly fee for an "all-you-can-eat" type deal, or even subset deals. I mean, let's be honest, I am already doing something similar with my DAW and NI for the almost yearly updates to Komplete and Sonar. Only instead of paying monthly, I pay yearly. With my DAW, I get new features, with NI I get new instruments or sample libraries.


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## hector (May 7, 2013)

...


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## Darthmorphling (May 7, 2013)

Peter Alexander @ Mon May 06 said:


> Darthmorphling @ Mon May 06 said:
> 
> 
> > Hypothetical scenario:
> ...



With respect, I do understand where Jay is coming from. I am fully aware that no two libraries are identical. It was merely a cut and dry scenario to illustrate a point. Given the choice, most people would choose the non CP version.

Scenario 2

You and your spouse have two sets of friends that you enjoy hanging out with. One set requires you to wear a device that keeps track of your movements in their house. The other set doesn't treat you like a criminal.

Which one do you keep hanging out with?

I am not against copy protection, as long as it is convenient for the consumer. When it is not, then we have a problem. I am going to be evaluating Cubase after summer break starts. If it's workflow is vastly superior to what I have in Reaper, then I will live with a dongle. 

If dongles didn't break down and cause downtime, it wouldn't even be an issue. Here's a thought, if the dongle breaks, the software kicks into evaluation mode for two weeks. It is fully functional, and allows time for the dongle to be replaced.

Don


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## Plasuma!!! (May 7, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Tue May 07 said:


> I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but how exactly does a sample developer make money supplying "service?" What exactly is someone who already has the samples and instruments going to pay for on a monthly basis? Bearing in mind that we're working within the constraints of Kontakt or UVI.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. Who knows what services a musician would want?

First of all: convenience. An example of potential here being Native Instruments, who are in a position now to make Kontakt into a convenient open-development platform and expand into a marketplace service, for both library developers to upload and sell their creations and users who are looking for a hub to find the content they want.

Second: affordability. A unified marketplace will mean lots of competition and frequent sales, which means user interest will rise. Users who were unwilling to pay $500 for a sample library and would normally opt to pirate might be happy to pay $200 during a short weekend sale. Factually speaking, sales are a great way to encourage users to purchase something instead of pirate it, but it only works if they know about it.

Third: community, frequent updates, and developer communication. Because the user-base is concentrated in one hub, it's easy to get updates out to everyone and even get instant feedback from those who actually use the software. As a social hub, where both professionals and amateurs are operating regularly in the same place online, there is potential for more communication between them and that means a potential for information sharing and a place to sell tutorials and lectures.

Until there's a hub that makes buying something more convenient than pirating it, developers will continue to experience rampant piracy. Providing useful services in software, rather than enforcing Draconian DRM, will encourage users to accept and even embrace it.

Pirates are offering exactly what is sold, but for free. What they can't offer is developer communication, a professional community hub, or convenient updates. While there are some pirates who will never pay for software regardless of sales, most are just dissatisfied with the prices or whatever obscure and unique DRM systems they'd normally have to abide. 
If you can't provide convenient services, you can't compete with pirates.


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## Ztarr (May 7, 2013)

:evil: Entire topic makes me sad. I've easily spent over 10K on sample libs as a *hobbyist*. Hell I even buy some libs just to support the dev. The thought, and probably fact, that so called "professionals" are out here making money off of stuff they've ripped off sickens me to no end. 

Wouldnt surprise me one bit if some come here to ask for suggestions just to run off to search their favorite torrent site and download based off of the great advice given here... :evil:


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## Diffusor (May 7, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:


> iLok 1. I just did a test, searching for a popular library released 2-3 years ago which uses iLok 1 copy protection. I found nothing. Why hasn't that appeared on the torrent sites? Not saying that it hasn't been hacked, but that then just begs the question if it has... where are all the torrents? Hacking is a moot point if the torrents still don't appear, and in the case of the product I looked at, they haven't. (please don't reply with links - an explanation will suffice!)
> 
> People often cite EWQL cracked products, but the only ones I see are old NI ones. I find the argument that "anything can be cracked" not remotely compelling. As I said before, even if this is true, you can buy years of time with good protection, which will equate to serious revenue.
> 
> Just a general moan (not directed at Hector) - this thread is headed "solutions". While several have been suggested here in the past couple of pages alone, it's pretty boring to read the same general negative stuff that people have been saying since page 1 (if I read "each download does not equate to a lost sale" one more time, I'm gonna throw up - advance the bloody point, people!). If you can't come up with new ideas, then at least COMMENT constructively on new ideas? There's a ton of bright folks on VI-C, let's try to be helpful rather than just succumbing to lazy cynicism.




Most ilok1 stuff had been cracked for years on Windows. Towards the end it was totally cracked for Mac too which caused a lot of plugin developers to panic--McDSP for one. Others developers just decided to drop ilok all together since it wasn't secure and expensive. ilok2 and Eden was the next evolution which has not publicly been cracked yet.


As far as EW Play libs, well even the krackers have sense enough not to bother with bug ridden software.


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## kitekrazy (May 7, 2013)

Diffusor @ Tue May 07 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:
> 
> 
> > iLok 1. I just did a test, searching for a popular library released 2-3 years ago which uses iLok 1 copy protection. I found nothing. Why hasn't that appeared on the torrent sites? Not saying that it hasn't been hacked, but that then just begs the question if it has... where are all the torrents? Hacking is a moot point if the torrents still don't appear, and in the case of the product I looked at, they haven't. (please don't reply with links - an explanation will suffice!)
> ...



No one bothered to crack Gigastudio 4.


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## radec (May 7, 2013)

kitekrazy @ Tue May 07 said:


> No one bothered to crack Gigastudio 4.


no one needed to, it didnt really do anything gigastudio 3 couldnt do and it wasnt out long enough for any big exclusive products to be released for it


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## Guy Rowland (May 7, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ Wed May 08 said:


> Until there's a hub that makes buying something more convenient than pirating it, developers will continue to experience rampant piracy. Providing useful services in software, rather than enforcing Draconian DRM, will encourage users to accept and even embrace it.



I think that's waaaay overstating the case. Right now I don't feel that legally purchasing and updating libaries is an impenetrable mess, or even remotely inconvenient. I hear about new libs here, on Twitter, on FB and by developer email. I go to their site and buy it, then download it. I get update notices by email. I personally don't feel a need for one all encompassing hub - I'm not anti it per se, but I don't see it as a pardadigm shift or anything. It's a million miles removed from, say, illegal mp3s vs legal CDs, which were two completely different things and the latter on the wrong side of technological development.

Also, crucially, I'm far from convinced that it would make the slightest difference to a pirate who is ideologically against paying for anything. Perhaps STEAM makes more sense in a gaming environment where online collaboration and community is a core part of the experience.

On the general point about how a perfect solution doesn't exist - of course not, hence the thread. The idea is to brainstorm ways to improve the status quo.

One thing that's come out of the thread that has genuinely surprised me is the level of hostility on the part of some to any form of CP, no matter how benign, over the bizarre notion that they are being treated like a criminal. I guess I understand it intellectually, but it seems absurdly touchy to take umbridge at watermarking, for example. The non-existent perfect solution would be a product which is impossible to sell illegally, and provides no restrictions on the end user - but I guess for some people even that wouldn't be acceptable. For those people, I think this discussion is probably a waste of time, and their view has to be "whatever will be will be" even if terrific developers go out of business as a result.

Here's my own feeling on the best potential solutions out there:

1. A radically different iLok. Designed to be used in pairs and providing the security of cloud-based backup.

2. A combination of watermarking and good customer relations (Mike Greene - you qualify!) and resign yourself to acceptable losses.

And here I do agree with this:



kb123 @ Tue May 07 said:


> It is also pretty clear that NI have no immediate plans to change Kontakt's protection, and most proposed solutions would require that to change



It's hard to escape this fact. For (1) to work - a long shot at best - it would also need to be embraced by NI at least as an OPTION for their libraries. It's shame there's no-one active from NI on this forum. I've seen a lot of resentment on the part of devs to them sitting on their hands on this issue. Right now, I don't see any of the other products out there competing realistically - Engine is technically inferior and I believe has been cracked anyway, and UVI uses iLok which in its current incarnation has too many detractors to gain traction. So it's a real stalemate.

I was / am hoping that at least if a credible new alternative is found, developers might form an alliance to get something off the ground, but sadly can't yet see it.


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## mosso (May 8, 2013)

hector @ 7/5/2013 said:


> It really depends on a mixture of company, demand and luck. Wave's copy protection scheme was cracked day one, Syncrosoft didn't take long, iLok took a while. I also did a test and searched for several popular libraries that utilise watermarking and while a few were available (quite a while after they were released), many weren't, so you can appear to get these 'years of time' using alternative methods without the intrusiveness and cost on the end user of a dongle.



As I understand it there's also a factor relating to how well the software codes the copy protection into it. For example VSL use eLicenser (formerly Syncrosoft) and none of their products using that are available as torrents. Why not? Are they not big enough, good enough or been out long enough? They're certainly more expensive than a lot of other plugs using the same CP that have been cracked.

I was thinking that maybe the VSL coding wizards are just really good at what they do, but I wonder if anyone else has an explanation?


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## Plasuma!!! (May 8, 2013)

Ztarr @ Tue May 07 said:


> :evil: Entire topic makes me sad. I've easily spent over 10K on sample libs as a *hobbyist*. Hell I even buy some libs just to support the dev. The thought, and probably fact, that so called "professionals" are out here making money off of stuff they've ripped off sickens me to no end.
> 
> Wouldnt surprise me one bit if some come here to ask for suggestions just to run off to search their favorite torrent site and download based off of the great advice given here... :evil:


Yeah, that's pretty sad. There will always be people who don't want to pay at all, but there are a lot who just don't want to pay _that much_.

That said, I love bargains. I bought EW's CCC, I check for sales regularly on KVR and other sites, and I wish I wouldn't have to sort through all the garbage to find that one good deal. But, on the opposite side of frugality, I also bought the entire Hollywood Diamond series as it is and a few VSL libraries for full price. I don't object to paying retail for it if I know its true value to me.



Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:


> I think that's waaaay overstating the case. Right now I don't feel that legally purchasing and updating libaries is an impenetrable mess, or even remotely inconvenient.


What most pirates do with sample libraries is this: they download it, play with it once or twice to find a few sounds they like, and leave the bulk to rot. They barely use even 10% of it. Most of the time, they just use synths and presets anyways.

Instead of a $500 strings section library, a pirate might actually be looking for a $50 "world's best high strings sustain patch" that they can use in everything. For them, it's not worth the hefty price tag just for that one patch.

One service developers could offer is a micro-modular approach or pay-per-patch. With something like a "Kontakt store", it would be very easy to sell pieces of libraries in micro-transactions.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2013)

I see. So there is a $90,000 new BMW I want and cannot afford so I am considering stealing it. BMW should simply make a very basic $2000 car which I COULD afford so I will not be tempted to steal the more expensive one?

If developers followed your suggestion of the micro-modular approach,I predict that the days of the development of new cutting edge libraries would be over.

Teach your children:
"I want it does NOT mean I am entitled to have it" and this problem will eventually greatly diminish.


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

Not really the best analogy, you can get a 3 series, 5 series, or fewer options for less if your budget allows.
I don't know about the single patch deal though. It doesn't make as much sense to me. There are those of us doing this as a hobby who spend way more than we probably should, but I would guess a lot of the piracy is people doing this as a hobby who just don't have that to spend. Reduced Non commercial licenses might make more sense in that regard, and if you ever sell a song using any of that library, you have to pay up.


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

BTW, I read somewhere in this thread or maybe on another forum dealing with ilok recently that the lock that VSL and Steinberg use only has a 2 year warranty, and if it breaks after that point you have to relicense the libraries (at a reduced fee)? I have to say, I have personally passed on a few libraries and VSTs that use dongles. But if I had spent thousands on VSL and my dongle went defective and they wanted me to relicense over it, that might be enough motivation for me to crack it myself and make sure everyone knew where to get it. What kind of business practice is that?


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

Nevermind, it was another thread on here. Cleared up later in that it is only $20 per product to reissue a license. They recommend you buy a new dongle every 2 years to insure it never becomes an issue. Still, the fact that I have to spend more money on useless hardware just as a "thank you for not being a criminal" is enough to keep me away from hardware dongles. If every library or app that used it included one with the purchase, it might be different. If I have 15 of them lying around, and can easily move licenses between them should one break, it becomes much less of an issue. At least ilok makes the moving them around easily, but having to buy 2 dongles to make sure you always have a backup is $100 I shouldn't have to pay.


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## mk282 (May 8, 2013)

Jay, car analogy is completely not holding water in comparison to what we're talking here (since software is pretty much getting divorced from any physical transfer medium). Just drop it.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2013)

mk282 @ Wed May 08 said:


> Jay, car analogy is completely not holding water in comparison to what we're talking here (since software is pretty much getting divorced from any physical transfer medium). Just drop it.



As NYC Composer said, whether it is physical or downloads, theft is theft.

And you don't get to decide what I can or cannot argue and order me accordingly. You are not a moderator nor have you earned that right.


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## Darthmorphling (May 8, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:


> One thing that's come out of the thread that has genuinely surprised me is the level of hostility on the part of some to any form of CP, no matter how benign, over the bizarre notion that they are being treated like a criminal. I guess I understand it intellectually, but it seems absurdly touchy to take umbridge at watermarking, for example. The non-existent perfect solution would be a product which is impossible to sell illegally, and provides no restrictions on the end user - but I guess for some people even that wouldn't be acceptable. For those people, I think this discussion is probably a waste of time, and their view has to be "whatever will be will be" even if terrific developers go out of business as a result.
> 
> Here's my own feeling on the best potential solutions out there:
> 
> ...



This might have been directed at me and it is not entirely true. I am not against copy protection as long as it is convenient for the paying consumer. I currently own two Spitfire Audio Libraries that have watermarking. One of which requires me to authorize it with NI's service center. I have no issue with doing so. There is no hardware involved, except my computer and internet connection, that could potentially disable my use of the libraries. Even if my internet connection stops working, I can still use them. I have my libraries backed up on a couple of hardrives stored in safe places. Even if my sample library drive dies, I can get up and running pretty quickly.

After seeing the other thread and the steinberg key policies I am seriously reconsidering not demoing cubase now. VSL offering a 50% license restoration after two years is a severe slap in the face to paying customers. I will never have to worry about my current libraries crapping out on me.

I am ok with a hardware solution, but the licenses need to be easily restored, and it shouldn't be as a punishment to the paying customer.

Don


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## RasmusFors (May 8, 2013)

> As NYC Composer said, whether it is physical or downloads, theft is theft.



Theft is theft, but digital theft is not as damaging as ordinary theft. If you steel a car, the builder loses money since he/she payed for the material to build. If you steal a digital copy of something, the maker don't lose money in the same way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend piracy, but I have to say you really can't compare pirating to stealing something material.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2013)

RasmusFors @ Wed May 08 said:


> > As NYC Composer said, whether it is physical or downloads, theft is theft.
> 
> 
> 
> Theft is theft, but digital theft is not as damaging as ordinary theft. If you steel a car, the builder loses money since he/she payed for the material to build. If you steal a digital copy of something, the maker don't lose money in the same way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend piracy, but I have to say you really can't compare pirating to stealing something material.



That assumes that you do not assign monetary value to a person's time and talent, only to the materials. According to the Torah, if you take a sales person's time knowing you will not buy from him, it is the same as stealing their possessions.

And it is easier to replace a stolen car than a stolen intellectual concept. 

So IMHO digital theft is every bit as damaging as ordinary theft, just different ways of calculating it.


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## KEnK (May 8, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Tue May 07 said:


> One thing that's come out of the thread that has genuinely surprised me is the level of hostility on the part of some to any form of CP, no matter how benign, over the bizarre notion that they are being treated like a criminal. I guess I understand it intellectually, but it seems absurdly touchy to take umbridge at watermarking, for example.


Been reading but not participating in this thread.
It's become rather circular.

I do want to say a few months ago I took a look at a manual
from one of the fav devs here.
First page was an over the top warning to pirates in large print that I found off-putting.

I don't have any hostility towards them, but as a customer even in the real world,
I resent being treated like a potential thief. 
I'm talking here about overzealous security in stores.
I don't like it, and tend to not look forward to shopping at such places.
Taken one step further, I avoid those places.

Although I bought an iLok, 
I didn't like being forced to pay extra for someone else's security.
I paid for it because I wanted the library, but it didn't help me be a happy customer.

I generally don't resent over zealous security, but I do avoid it given the choice.

Speaking of hostility- I was surprised by some reactions to Daniel James floating the idea of some kind of subscription business model.
To me it seemed the only new idea that anyone has put forth.

k

edit- as to circular- just searched my own posts and found I said the same thing on page 8 back in Jan! :roll:


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## RasmusFors (May 8, 2013)

> That assumes that you do not assign monetary value to a person's time and talent, only to the materials. According to the Torah, if you take a sales person's time knowing you will not buy from him, it is the same as stealing their possessions.
> 
> And it is easier to replace a stolen car than a stolen intellectual concept.
> 
> So IMHO digital theft is every bit as damaging as ordinary theft, just different ways of calculating it.



Completly agree on that part, I just think people need to understand that pirating is not simple to judge like theft


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## Daryl (May 8, 2013)

RasmusFors @ Wed May 08 said:


> > That assumes that you do not assign monetary value to a person's time and talent, only to the materials. According to the Torah, if you take a sales person's time knowing you will not buy from him, it is the same as stealing their possessions.
> >
> > And it is easier to replace a stolen car than a stolen intellectual concept.
> >
> ...


Yes it is. Theft is theft. Period.

D


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## Guy Rowland (May 8, 2013)

mosso @ Wed May 08 said:


> VSL use eLicenser (formerly Syncrosoft) and none of their products using that are available as torrents. Why not? Are they not big enough, good enough or been out long enough? They're certainly more expensive than a lot of other plugs using the same CP that have been cracked.
> 
> I was thinking that maybe the VSL coding wizards are just really good at what they do, but I wonder if anyone else has an explanation?



Good question - anyone?


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## Hans Adamson (May 8, 2013)

RasmusFors @ Wed May 08 said:


> > As NYC Composer said, whether it is physical or downloads, theft is theft.
> 
> 
> 
> Theft is theft, but digital theft is not as damaging as ordinary theft. If you steel a car, the builder loses money since he/she payed for the material to build. If you steal a digital copy of something, the maker don't lose money in the same way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend piracy, but I have to say you really can't compare pirating to stealing something material.



A person dedicating his/her life to creating IP is just as much in need of health care, dentistry, and the basics of life as a worker in a car manufacturing plant, or a steel mill. It is basic human rights that you deny those with a creative profession if you say theft of IP is not the same as theft of material goods. The European Union recognizes this in its human rights charter:

Article 17
Right to property
1. Everyone has the right to own, use, dispose of and bequeath his or her lawfully acquired possessions. No one may be deprived of his or her possessions, except in the public interest and in the cases and under the conditions provided for by law, subject to fair compensation being paid in good time for their loss. The use of property may be regulated by law in so far as is necessary for the general interest.
2. Intellectual property shall be protected.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 8, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 08 said:


> I see. So there is a $90,000 new BMW I want and cannot afford so I am considering stealing it. BMW should simply make a very basic $2000 car which I COULD afford so I will not be tempted to steal the more expensive one?
> 
> If developers followed your suggestion of the micro-modular approach,I predict that the days of the development of new cutting edge libraries would be over.
> 
> ...


BMW is missing out on a pretty big market share then. VW owns Bugatti, Audi, Bentley, Porsche, and Lamborghini and they seem to do just fine offering models for all levels of consumers.

Besides that, software operates differently from physical goods. First of all, the software itself carries no value - it's the license to use the software that does. You can sell any shape and size of license you want and customize the software to allow the user access to individual parts of it without inhibiting its functionality. To not take advantage of that flexibility is missing the point of digital goods.

Developers who decide not to take a convenient service-oriented or micro-transaction approach will inevitably lose out. As I said before, look at China - nobody buys software there since piracy is rampant, but everyone takes part in micro-transactions and that economy flourishes.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2013)

Do you want to live with the standard of living that millions of the Chinese people do?

Somehow I doubt it.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 8, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 08 said:


> Do you want to live with the standard of living that millions of the Chinese people do?
> 
> Somehow I doubt it.


The popularity of piracy and micro-transactions are the same in Holland / Netherlands as they are in all of China, and there's a stark difference in general standard of living. Don't think that software piracy means anything other than a lack of convenience, especially not in first world countries.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ Wed May 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you want to live with the standard of living that millions of the Chinese people do?
> ...



I disagree. I think it all stems from a sense of entitlement and a lack of moral clarity.

OK, I have no arguments to make that I have not already made. So I will conclude by saying that if and when I have the opportunity to vote for harsh penalties for software pirates, I will.


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## RasmusFors (May 8, 2013)

> It is basic human rights that you deny those with a creative profession if you say theft of IP is not the same as theft of material goods.



I'm not denying anybody anything, I'm on your side on this matter. Stealing non-material stuff is just as bad as stealing material stuff. I'm not defending thieves, nor denying the devolpers their rights 
I've gotten my own stuff stolen/pirated from me when I was in game devolpment. I had spent a year on devolping an indiegame all by myself. I released the game and sold about 10 copies, but I later found it on a torrent site, and over 1000 people had downloaded it. All those hours and money I'd spendt on the game, and people were downloading it and then saying in the comment section how "crap" it was. They stole my game and said it was shit. Imagine how that felt for me.
It didn't take long until I got over it. I decided to stop devolping games as a hobby, and focus whole heartedly on the composing.

So whats the point of that little story ? Well what I'm trying to say is that it could been alot worse. If 1000 people would have stolen a material product from me, I would have lost countless of money to filthy thiefs. But since it was a digital thing, I only lost money that I _could_ have had.
Lets say that some kid steals a copy of library x. The devolpers only loses money that they _could_ have had, not money that they _had_. It's still stealing and still wrong (and I've been in the victims place my self, so I completly understand), but it could been alot worse.


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## Hans Adamson (May 8, 2013)

If a developer spends three years developing a product, and the week after it is released it is pirated and spread to be freely downloaded, severely impacting the sales, the loss of revenue to pay for the investment in time and work is just as substantial and crucial as the loss of the raw materials, if a car was stolen. If not more so.


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## Mossad (May 8, 2013)

Guy Rowland @ Wed May 08 said:


> mosso @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > VSL use eLicenser (formerly Syncrosoft) and none of their products using that are available as torrents. Why not? Are they not big enough, good enough or been out long enough? They're certainly more expensive than a lot of other plugs using the same CP that have been cracked.
> ...



Did the original orchestral cube, Horizon series, etc. use the eLicenser? Or was it used just when their player software came out?


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## germancomponist (May 8, 2013)

Why did no one comment on my suggestion?


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## Daryl (May 8, 2013)

Mossad @ Wed May 08 said:


> Did the original orchestral cube, Horizon series, etc. use the eLicenser? Or was it used just when their player software came out?


No it didn't. I also know that piracy was one of the reasons that VSL decided to go with Syncrosoft, rather than leave their huge investment unprotected.

D


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## Plasuma!!! (May 8, 2013)

Mossad @ Wed May 08 said:


> Guy Rowland @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Good question - anyone?
> ...



Cubase 5 and 6 have been cracked, and they're on numerous private trackers.

The kind of protection doesn't really matter, but somebody has to buy it and then provide it to a cracker in the first place. Most people who put thousands of dollars into their software tend to want to keep it to themselves and/or don't want to risk being identified unless they have the skills to crack it themselves and the agenda to do so. Unsurprisingly, opponents of proprietary software (or some other ideal) often crack expensive programs they regularly use out of spite for their dissatisfaction with the parent company.

Every new version of AutoCad, Inventor, Maya, and 3DS Max is cracked almost immediately after release, and usually by different groups each time. AutoDesk has fairly substandard support and very high price barriers for entry, so there should be no question why they are targeted more often than the creators of Cinema 4D or Lightwave, who put some effort into support and demonstrate some appreciation for customer loyalty.




EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 08 said:


> I disagree. I think it all stems from a sense of entitlement and a lack of moral clarity.
> 
> OK, I have no arguments to make that I have not already made. So I will conclude by saying that if and when I have the opportunity to vote for harsh penalties for software pirates, I will.


Maybe when software companies can own up to some fairness for user license transfer and refund, I'll agree with you there. It's certainly wrong that people pirate software, but it's worse that development companies act victimized when their behavior is a cause of it in the first place.

Morality, and any other subjective philosophy, has nothing to do with this issue.


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## dinerdog (May 8, 2013)

Is there any possibility of hiring a hacker to find out if there's any way to make it such a PITA that's it's not worth it? Or is nothing without a key un-crackable?

Not quite a cloud thing, but what about internet only verification, sort of like Reason if you don't have your key, it has to verify your name and password. Could that be tied to a challenge response to your particulars motherboard?

I know that's all a PITA, but maybe some developer with an amazing library will try it, and if you really want that library, you get on board and use internet verification. Maybe a random or weekly thing, so people don't panic if the internet is down. Not perfect, but maybe the reality of the future.

Something else has me thinking. There's a keyless lock that just came out that you touch, and if your iPhone is within a few feet it opens. Maybe there's some kind of Bluetooth verification possible?

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/05/ ... -house-key


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

There are several ways you could handle licensing with smartphones or other options as hardware locks. They wouldn't be any more hackable than ilok. They also wouldn't take much time to write the code. A couple of weeks for the host side. I haven't written iphone or android apps before, but it shouldn't be too difficult at all. There are some things to consider from a concurrent use issue and how often keys are validated, etc. All in all minor issues.
To make it more secure, you would also have to pick exactly where such checks exist in the code, make sure they aren't easy to remove with a hex editor.


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

And if the person who wrote such a system also made it fairly inexpensive for vendors to integrate and manage their own licensing, I expect you wouldn't really be passing on a cost to the end user. End user app is free, small cost per licensee to maintain their end of it, but make it maintainable by the actual company doing the licensing, not by a central agent... Actually I might start coding something up to offer as a proof of concept. Hell I would probably sell it to any company who wanted to use it in exchange for a perpetual license to whatever they want to sell with it


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

Okay, so more thought on this. First, the authenticator has to be statically linked, it can't be a dynamically linked library, or it would be too easy to crack. Second, I need a little bit more detail on how the kontakt scripting can link in outside code. My Kontakt scripting is limited, can someone doing kontakt libraries send me a pm I need to hear from someone with technical details, not marketing details. I actually want to work up a proof of concept for this over the next week or two.


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## kb123 (May 8, 2013)

Iostream @ Wed May 08 said:


> Okay, so more thought on this. First, the authenticator has to be statically linked, it can't be a dynamically linked library, or it would be too easy to crack. Second, I need a little bit more detail on how the kontakt scripting can link in outside code. My Kontakt scripting is limited, can someone doing kontakt libraries send me a pm I need to hear from someone with technical details, not marketing details. I actually want to work up a proof of concept for this over the next week or two.



Kontakt scripts can easily be bypassed, so you would need to direct your request to NI


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## Mike Greene (May 8, 2013)

Iostream @ Wed May 08 said:


> Second, I need a little bit more detail on how the kontakt scripting can link in outside code.


It can't. At least not in any meaningful way.

Your idea is a nice one, but just like some similar ideas various amongst us developers have wished we could implement, there's simply no way they can work with KSP as it is now. KSP can't even access a computer's clock. Believe me, we've pushed NI on opening up KSP so we can write individual little CP programs, but as of now, it simply can't be done.


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Wed May 08 said:


> Iostream @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Second, I need a little bit more detail on how the kontakt scripting can link in outside code.
> ...


Okay, so we work around it in a different way. You move to a lower level. Samples are encrypted, access request makes a check against the key mechanism (this has to be fast). To keep things fairly speedy, you keep the samples unlocked for a specific period of time maybe 24 hours. System also rechecks the key every hour or so when the system load is not too high, so that it is never a wait/intrusive issue. Basically kontakt doesn't do anything here but a file open, the rest happens in the background. Considerably more code, but it can be done. Even better with this system, Kontakt doesn't know it is happening, it just can't load samples if things aren't authenticated. The same mechanism could be used for any libraries, or even sound banks for any synth.


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

There are a couple of keys to make this successful. First, cost to developers has to be very low, central management will cost some money. Basically Amazon EC2 bills for hosting the front end and the database on the back end. An administrator to provide developers support, which shouldn't be too much work. 
Second, the actual license administration is handled by the developer company, so there isn't as much of a central staffing required and costs can be kept down.
Basically you want to make it cheap and easy for developers to use, so that they are not passing costs on to the consumer.
Last, the client side has to be light weight, flexible, and easy to use, while still managing concurrent access, time restricted licenses, new licenses, license revocation, and license transfer.


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## hector (May 8, 2013)

offer a service that can't be pirated the meaningful updates and support


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## mosso (May 8, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ 8/5/2013 said:


> Mossad @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Rowland @ Wed May 08 said:
> ...



But I wasn't asking about Cubase. I was asking about VSL. Why haven't any of their CP libs been cracked?


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## Plasuma!!! (May 8, 2013)

hector @ Wed May 08 said:


> - Offer a service that can't be pirated - meaningful updates and support


The biggest issue with this one is the requirement for some hefty infrastructure. I previously suggested that NI were in a position to manage such a thing if they made a "Kontakt Marketplace" which could be a vehicle for delivering updates and attractive sales as well as a means of DRM. NI is in a position to spark that revolution, as a majority of sample library developers use their platform, but they won't for whatever reason. Perhaps they have better financial insights than I do.

At any rate, DRM for the sake of DRM will always be intrusive, but when it's coupled with a useful service that actually benefits the user, it's seen as less of a detriment to the experience. If NI doesn't do it with Kontakt, the home of a majority of independently developed sample libraries, then somebody else would have to develop a plug-in distribution hub that works with everything and has sufficient market, community, and DRM facilities, and that seems unlikely to spring up anytime soon.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 8, 2013)

mosso @ Wed May 08 said:


> Plasuma!!! @ 8/5/2013 said:
> 
> 
> > Cubase 5 and 6 have been cracked, and they're on numerous private trackers.
> ...


There was one copy of the giga VSL sphere / cube / some geometric shape thing and a couple of their Kontakt libraries cracked which were proliferated to hell and back. I don't know if those used a Vienna Key / eLicenser, but I don't think they did.

I was only pointing out that some recent software that uses eLicenser was cracked. For VSL, that means maybe one or all of the following are true: 1) there's no incentive (_or even a negative incentive_) for users to give crackers their expensive software and share it with the world, 2) users of VSL are not software crackers themselves and don't know where to find somebody who can do it without risk, and 3) the cracked versions, if they exist, are only available on private trackers via Tor or similar "dark web" environments.


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## Diffusor (May 8, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 08 said:


> mk282 @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay, car analogy is completely not holding water in comparison to what we're talking here (since software is pretty much getting divorced from any physical transfer medium). Just drop it.
> ...



So says the one who constantly goes around on the forum telling people what they should say or not and how they should behave, or they haven't earned the right to speak. lol


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## EastWest Lurker (May 8, 2013)

Diffusor @ Wed May 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > mk282 @ Wed May 08 said:
> ...



The difference is that I don't ORDER people to do or not do something but that is probably too subtle a distinction for you.


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

hector @ Wed May 08 said:


> Iostream @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, so we work around it in a different way. You move to a lower level. Samples are encrypted, access request makes a check against the key mechanism (this has to be fast).
> ...



I am more tech savvy than most, I write OS kernel code for a living... But that's beside the point. Here is the flaw with what has been done in the past.

1) The companies with solutions are in it to make money (ilok, steinberg). Their paying customers are developers, so who cares if they are an inconvenience to end users.
2) The market is fragmented because no one can come up with a decent solution.
3) Because the technology is expensive, that cost is passed directly on to the end user, sometimes with a mark up even. This pisses off or turns away users and perspective users

What I am proposing is this system which is created from scratch, openly, and not for profit. My interests are in there being an open system that everyone can use, I have no financial interest, the only thing I am offering is my time. Even if people were signed up left and right, frankly, I love my job. It is an interesting problem to solve, and pretty much everyone wins if it is solved in a mutually beneficial manner.
Yes, NI would have to be involved for it to work at a sample library level effectively. But if we show up to them with code, an open license, and not for profit, I think they might be more likely to go along. They can even run their own server if they like, have their own replication of the master database if it would make them more likely to buy in. 
This is digressing from the original back and forth of this thread, and moving into technical details. I will start another thread tonight for those interested in further discussing this.


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## dinerdog (May 8, 2013)

Iostream - I think your right. There's something there that could work. I know NI doesn't "seem" to care, but if there was anyone there who's forward thinking, they might embrace something like that. If they actually considered making Kontakt 6 with some type of Bluetooth dongle (or whatever it ends up being) besides having every developer wanting to go with them, they'd have quite a few more sales themselves. 

I hate to say it, but NI etc... needs more of an Apple mentality and less German engineering. The walled garden is not that bad. Who really gives a fcuk if something is open source?, Give me the walled garden as long as it works.

"Somebody" is going to build a better mousetrap, and I think this might be the direction it takes. If not the Kwikset model, then something like new cars key fobs that just need to need to be in some proximity. How does that work? Seems like something to consider.


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## Iostream (May 8, 2013)

Actually, I care if something is open source given the option. But the key point here is the openness is what might actually drive adoption. A solution that doesn't cost them a ton of licensing fees, won't alienate customers, will aid developers supporting the NI ecosystem, and that their competitors can leverage just as easily. It doesn't seem like it would make much business sense for them to ignore. Kontakt is in some regards the only sampler that matters, but that wasn't always the case. I am sure they want to remain in their current position.


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## Guy Rowland (May 8, 2013)

germancomponist @ Wed May 08 said:


> Why did no one comment on my suggestion?



If I understand you, I think we were discussing something similar a while ago on this thread. I think it's an option, but the biggest argument against was the sense of how endless the task is of taking down sites, and how herculean. As you fix one problem, three new ones pop up in their place. Perhaps you can elaborate a little more on how it might work?


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## kb123 (May 8, 2013)

Iostream @ Wed May 08 said:


> Actually, I care if something is open source given the option. But the key point here is the openness is what might actually drive adoption. A solution that doesn't cost them a ton of licensing fees, won't alienate customers, will aid developers supporting the NI ecosystem, and that their competitors can leverage just as easily. It doesn't seem like it would make much business sense for them to ignore. Kontakt is in some regards the only sampler that matters, but that wasn't always the case. I am sure they want to remain in their current position.



What people care about is the quality and usability of their libraries and the speed with which they can be accessed. They are not interested in another form of (untested) copy protection. With respect, I don't see this method of copy protection being any less intrusive than any other solution. Indeed it adds potential levels of cost to those not having the latest smart mobile device .. much more expensive than a dongle. Also, given that its a general hardware device, it is going to be much more open to cracking than any dedicated dongle solution. The other side of this is that its easy as hell to loose a phone, leave it behind somewhere etc etc.

I admire your enthusiasm .. but I don't think you have anything close to a viable solution to the issues.


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## mosso (May 9, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ 9/5/2013 said:


> mosso @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Plasuma!!! @ 8/5/2013 said:
> ...



But if eLicenser has been cracked why haven't VSL's libraries? Why aren't they on the torrent sites?

One of the things I remember reading somewhere is that the manner of implementation of the CP in your code is important in making it harder to crack.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 9, 2013)

mosso @ Thu May 09 said:


> Plasuma!!! @ 9/5/2013 said:
> 
> 
> > I was only pointing out that some recent software that uses eLicenser was cracked.
> ...


I answered your question in the latter part of that very same post...

To reiterate:
Either users of VSL all unanimously don't want their software to be cracked, don't have the skills or know anyone who might be able to crack it, or it's already cracked but hidden and only shared in a small circle (_as the copy protection, though broken, might still be able to implicate the user who shared it_).


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## EastWest Lurker (May 9, 2013)

Often in life, problems arise that do not have a "solution", only a choice among less than wonderful compromises and there will never be unanimity of opinion as to which choices are the best.

I think with copy protection, this is one of those problems.


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## mosso (May 9, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ 9/5/2013 said:


> mosso @ Thu May 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Plasuma!!! @ 9/5/2013 said:
> ...



There is, of course, another option. It's possible what you say is true but I'd argue it's much more likely, considering what other software is available on torrent sites (many of which fit the same criteria as you're using to justify VSL's non-appearance on those same sites), that the CP hasn't yet been broken. If we're going to speculate in the absence of even the smallest shred of circumstantial evidence then why not add that possibility?


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## Plasuma!!! (May 9, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 09 said:


> Often in life, problems arise that do not have a "solution", only a choice among less than wonderful compromises and there will never be unanimity of opinion as to which choices are the best.
> 
> I think with copy protection, this is one of those problems.



Some people will always be of the opinion that all forms of DRM are bad, but ideas and digital goods need protection and real value if they are to continue to be a profitable interest. 

While there certainly are ways to make DRM tolerable to the end user, they have yet to be seen in this industry due to the high cost of developing such a system, and not a lot of developers want to put as much effort into making their idea convenient and attractive for users to own as they do in making it convenient and attractive to use.

Ownership just isn't given much thought. Somebody makes a thing and wants to "get it out there", and, of course, wants to protect their intellectual property... but never considers the user experience because they don't have to deal with it. DRM RnD: $0. User Ownership RnD: $0. It shouldn't be a surprise to them that their products and ideas are stolen all the time, but it's somehow always shocking and horrifying.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 9, 2013)

I think almost all sample library developers started as sample library users so I really doubt many of them "never consider the user experience."

I think it is just a difficult problem.


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## Daryl (May 9, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 09 said:


> I think almost all sample library developers started as sample library users so I really doubt many of them "never consider the user experience."
> 
> I think it is just a difficult problem.


I agree, and as I wrote in the other thread, the user experience is very different depending on what level the user is working at. For me the dongles are totally unobtrusive, the cost to me is insignificant, and if it helps the developer, I'm all for it.

D


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## 667 (May 9, 2013)

I'm actually 100% in favour of dongles as well. I just built a new DAW. Installing my EW libs was just a matter of installing the latest PLAY and ticking the boxes. But if I lose that dongle I think the devs need to make it as easy and painless as possible to replace the "licenses" on it. Again, the dongle is just the copy protection. It's not the license. I already have a license (legal agreement) to use the samples.

I love samples and only want sample devs to survive and thrive. That's why I pay for everything. My DAW is 100% legit and I have bought a lot of samples. But if VSL tries to charge me $2000 to replace DS and MIR I'm not paying that. I'm just not.

That's why an auth system that has a time based threshold is better. e.g. 2 licenses / authorizations to start and then one new one (to a max of 2) every 12 months or whatever so you can auth a new computer when you get it. Someone steals your PC you can still auth. Most companies if you contact them they add more authorizations (fxpansion will do this, Spectrasonics is flexible, NI has a mixed rep but has always been good to me).

None of these companies will gouge me just because I lost a dongle.

edit: I'm sure VSL would actually charge something more reasonable. I have heard that EW does as well, they just don't state so publicly so as to discourage false claims. Guess I won't know until it happens to me (knock on wood).

I actually think it's Steinberg who would be hardest to work with but that's why I have software coverage on my insurance.


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## germancomponist (May 12, 2013)

Rctec @ Sun May 05 said:


> And I look at it like: When you steel a plug-in you're a tief. if you steel my music, you are a thief. if you steel my ideas and sounds, if you steel my name and my style, you are a thief. Good sofar? And one day, someone will come by and you'll meet. and we'll have it out.
> If you need a piece of bread, cup of coffee...ask...
> 
> ****You have a PC but don't want to pay the $40? What sort of selfish pratt are you?***
> ...



+1


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## Plasuma!!! (May 12, 2013)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu May 09 said:


> I think almost all sample library developers started as sample library users so I really doubt many of them "never consider the user experience."
> 
> I think it is just a difficult problem.


The difficulty has to do with attaching value to a product that the user has literally no reason to protect against piracy. They own the license, not the software, and those items are always two distinct things; the library being useful and value-less, the license being useless and of high (_only monetary_) value. Putting some effort into a system that makes the user value the entire product for the right reasons would be more beneficial than just piling on more obtrusive requirements. One way to make the user value the library more is to attach the license to it; and to make the user value the license, attach very personal information to it. The point here being that if convenience and better service doesn't sell it, then go the opposite direction and make the user paranoid.

This could be a very simple procedure; you just collect valuable user information (_Full name, DOB, living address, credit card number used for purchase, and SSN or equivalent_), encrypt a key file and library such that both contain this information in useless fragments that only becomes complete and accessible when used together, and then make the encrypted key files (_theoretically small in size_) publicly available / free for anyone to download.

On your website and everywhere you want, make this public knowledge to the effect of:
"ATTN: Your licenses and watermarked libraries contain very personal information in the following format: [format: name, DOB, etc.] and are encrypted using this method: [encryption method]. Your key file is available for everyone to download, but your library is not, and both are required to view this information. Please be very protective of your library."

The key files will be useless to anyone without the matching library files, but if somebody decides to be generous and upload their copy of the library to the internet, audio pirates everywhere are going to have access to the means to decrypt it. When they do, that user's personal information will become plainly available. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to guess what would happen next.

With this scheme, it's up to the user to protect themselves from harm more than it is some moral obligation to help keep the company alive. Essentially, the internet is now the customer's enemy, but the user can freely use the product anywhere and at any time they want.


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## yellowstudio (May 13, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ Mon 13 May said:


> ...With this scheme, it's up to the user to protect themselves from harm more than it is some moral obligation to help keep the company alive. Essentially, the internet is now the customer's enemy, but the user can freely use the product anywhere and at any time they want.









Sorry Plasuma, now you're just trolling.

so long
Andreas


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## Iostream (May 13, 2013)

Plasuma!!! @ Mon May 13 said:


> With this scheme, it's up to the user to protect themselves from harm more than it is some moral obligation to help keep the company alive. Essentially, the internet is now the customer's enemy, but the user can freely use the product anywhere and at any time they want.


With this scheme, developers are opening up themselves to a world of legal troubles should something go wrong and this information get out as a result of any problem on their end. If a library gets pirated, the worst that can happen is a loss of potential profit. If something like this were breached, you can lose a lot of profit you have already made, or more.


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## Plasuma!!! (May 13, 2013)

yellowstudio @ Mon May 13 said:


> Sorry Plasuma, now you're just trolling.


Shh, don't tell everyone else. Let it be our little secret.


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## kaned (May 12, 2014)

Hi,

Just to give some of my thoughts and experience on the matter...

The piracy issue is becoming a big problem for us and I feel empathy for all other developers that have similar problems. I kind of understand why certain people will download pirated software – the whole ‘try before buy’ ethos is actually a good idea if it could be enforced. The problem is that it is not enforced or tracked and the people who actually upload the software are seriously ruining the livelihood of many small companies and developers.

I run Sampleism, and it is our mission to help established developers reach a bigger audience and to help new independent developers release their own creations. In recent months we have been plagued by pirates. I’m so frustrated. Our last 10 or so releases have all been released on the scene and it’s starting to ruin the aspirations of the smaller developers. The ‘underdogs’ so to speak should not have to endure this. Obviously , no company should have to endure this but when I see a new library, created by one passionate person in his spare time, uploaded to a warez site it really makes me wonder why the uploaders do it.

As somebody mentioned in a previous post, some of the releases that have been uploaded are sub $5. Hell, one of the cracked instruments was a free giveaway! We gave it away in a previous promotion and it’s still free to download on our site and yet, somebody saw fit to upload it and share it on a warez site!

I’m kind of at a loss as to what to do about it. The process seems to follow a similar pattern though:

1. New library released and selling at a steady rate
2. After a few days the instrument appears on sharing sites.
3. A couple more days later we (or the developer) gets an email from a ‘takedown’ company (mostly DMCA force) telling us they can take down the pirated links from the internet.

I’m probably suspicious but I have a nagging feeling that some of the ‘takedown’ companies are in cohorts with the actual pirates.

I could go on and on expressing my frustrations but, for now, I’m going to give Muso a try as recommended in this thread and see where I can go from there.


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## Cygnus64 (May 12, 2014)

Plasuma!!! @ Wed May 08 said:


> hector @ Wed May 08 said:
> 
> 
> > - Offer a service that can't be pirated - meaningful updates and support
> ...



True, except some do it waaay better than others. There are some "mom and pop" vendors who will do anything to help, and some mega dealers with cocky attitudes and laughable service, regardless of their $$ status. We all know who some of them are. Sibelius, pre-Avid, had it right: a forum for registered users, Daniel Spreadbury and others with non-stop devotion, etc. One wanted to continue supporting the company. Camel Audio seems to put out a similar vibe, I want to keep supporting and helping them. It's more than just the money they put into service, it's the "Love me or leave me" attitude that they _don't _have, unlike a few others.

What I've learned from the musician side, putting out CDs and mp3s: it's foolish to attempt to change human nature. Some people are crappy, that's all there is to it. I can invent "super bulletproof industrial DRM watermark blah blah" and it's not going to change human nature in 2014. I'd rather spend the time convincing people of the viablility of music. In other words, we're all screwed. :twisted:


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## Pingu (May 12, 2014)

A long time ago Garritan came up with the idea of a keyfile which is a jpeg containing some of the user's personal information - the file is dragged onto the unregistered software and, hey presto, it's registered. I suggested then that this information should include the credit card number, and address, of the buyer, but Gary was far too nice to go that way. Perhaps now, though, given the levels that piracy have reached, developers ought to be getting a little nasty. I'm sure far fewer people would be giving copies away if their own payment details were included - even if they'd set up a credit card just to purchase a library, and then cancelled it, there would still be some risk.


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## G.E. (May 12, 2014)

Pingu @ Mon May 12 said:


> A long time ago Garritan came up with the idea of a keyfile which is a jpeg containing some of the user's personal information - the file is dragged onto the unregistered software and, hey presto, it's registered. I suggested then that this information should include the credit card number, and address, of the buyer, but Gary was far too nice to go that way. Perhaps now, though, given the levels that piracy have reached, developers ought to be getting a little nasty. I'm sure far fewer people would be giving copies away if their own payment details were included - even if they'd set up a credit card just to purchase a library, and then cancelled it, there would still be some risk.



Unless I'm not understanding you correctly, I believe that's called watermarking and many developers are already doing it.


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## Diffusor (May 12, 2014)

Watermarking can be bypassed and for it to be somewhat effective you have to sell directly to customer but that can limit your sales potential not having any retail distribution. Just the mere warning that samples are watermarked is enough deterrent for "honest" customers to not share libraries, but it's not the honest people that are the problem. 

Steven Slate "claimed" he was watermarking his drum samples early on but he started selling through places like Guitar Center, in which case what would prevent someone coming in the store and paying cash anonymously.


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## Pingu (May 12, 2014)

G.E. @ Mon May 12 said:


> Pingu @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > A long time ago Garritan came up with the idea of a keyfile which is a jpeg containing some of the user's personal information - the file is dragged onto the unregistered software and, hey presto, it's registered. I suggested then that this information should include the credit card number, and address, of the buyer, but Gary was far too nice to go that way. Perhaps now, though, given the levels that piracy have reached, developers ought to be getting a little nasty. I'm sure far fewer people would be giving copies away if their own payment details were included - even if they'd set up a credit card just to purchase a library, and then cancelled it, there would still be some risk.
> ...



No I don't mean watermarking. Garritan's ARIA libraries are authorised by dragging a jpeg file onto them - and the jpeg literally has some of your personal details visible as text on it. So to distribute it for free you have to distribute your own keyfile. If the details on it were a little more personal people might think twice.


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## 667 (May 13, 2014)

That does not work because the first time someone with faked/stolen CC info buys the library the protection is broken forever. Same issue as with all watermarking. 

Best protection against that I think is actually 8Dio's 8W where only known legit customers have access to those products.

This is why I like dongles. Yes they can be annoying to use but if it keeps devs in business I will live with it.


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## kitekrazy (May 13, 2014)

Pingu @ Mon May 12 said:


> G.E. @ Mon May 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Pingu @ Mon May 12 said:
> ...



Did you think twice that people get their hardware stolen? Great, a system is stolen and a keycard with a CC#.


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## Edward_Martin (May 14, 2014)

Coming into this thread a bit late, but I find the topic fascinating. I know the goal of the thread is to come up with ideas on how to combat piracy, but I feel we should also be realistic about them and why no perfect solution has been thought of as of yet by none of the bright folks here, let alone the greatest minds working for the biggest software companies in the various fields throughout the world. I will comment on the ones the OP has listed.

1. A group response - form a large ad hoc team that would contact every website and get them to take down all specific torrents related to our business.

The internet being what it is, your basically taking on the mythical hydra. Take one down, five more spring up to take its place, so while the idea is good on paper it requires an inhuman level of vigilance, that means scanning through every seedy corner of the vast internet forever more for each and every initial leak...a near impossible task I think.

2. Developers switch en masse away from Kontakt to a more secure system a la Engine or Mach Five (both of which rely on iLok which afaik has never been cracked)

I do believe in the past iLok has in fact been cracked, but yes, the more current versions have not. See reFX Nexus2.

As a side note, I find it amusing that while the obvious choice would be to go to Engine or Mach Five, devs seem to stay with Kontakt. Not only that, but the ones that started with some of the other platforms have then switched to Kontakt later on. An example of a couple I can readily remember off the top of my head are Evolution Series and Tari's libs. I bought Evolutions library when it was on ENGINE, but I am guessing they went over to Kontakt despite the risk because it is a standard of sorts and undoubtedly has the lions share of the user base in the world of samplers. I also would like to think that they have had more success on the Kontakt platform than when they were on ENGINE despite having a great product as they then went on to release more libraries on that platform exclusively. Same goes for Tari and his most recent libs but only they can confirm this themselves.

I also don't see Native Instruments doing a lick about the issue because their software is cracked all the time, not just Kontakt, but their entire line! Its laughable, but if they don't do anything about their own security then the answer is obvious. Not just that, I have somewhat of a conspiracy theory that they in fact enjoy great success from their software being so easily pirated, similar to Adobe's approach which led to them becoming so popular and widely used. They make half-hearted attempts at protecting themselves considering the resources they have...by comparison even the smallest devs here do more to prevent piracy then they do...why is that?

Also, if you are a developer and you honestly believe you are taking a huge hit on sales from piracy, you have to leave Kontakt, no way around it. Period. Watermarks do not work against stolen credit cards. However, I have to be brutally honest, I don't think dongles will keep a weak company afloat either. Its easy to blame piracy on a companies ultimate failure or lack of sales because it is soul crushing to admit that that failure was mostly because they couldn't cut it in today's ridiculously grueling competitive market. I have to say, but I think if your good at what you do you can survive piracy, hell you might even thrive in spite of it. Your biggest threat will always be your colleagues, just look at what is going on with Hybrid Tools 3 and Project Bravo...no doubt they will cut into each others earnings, but if their both good they will even out, if one is better it will eat the other whole...and assuming their on the nets, will the loser come out and blame piracy? Look at Spitfire, I'd guess their doing very well on the Kontakt platform despite its security flaws, and if they were to switch to something like the Mach Five and drop Kontakt altogether I'd even wager they'd fare worse despite already being established...imagine a company just starting out. I say that because how attractive would their competition now look? That would most assuredly clear the way for OrchTools to steal the show. Also, I know a bunch of my friends who own various libraries, and a lot of them preferred Kontakt derivatives over the others. A perfect example is LASS vs. Hollywood Strings. LASS has retained its value over the years despite having released earlier and being leaked on the net, where as HS has since nearly reduced its price in half to what it originally retailed for...Again, why is that? We also saw this with CineBrass vs. Hollywood Brass which prompted a whole show here on the VI forums. Piracy in my opinion has become sort of a scapegoat for some who don't want to admit their not up to snuff against their competition...yes I went there.

Personally, all the libraries I look forward to have come to the Kontakt platform. I can't remember the last time I wanted anything that was on the Mach Five, despite being a great sampler in its own right. If the devs of major companies all of a sudden were to shift en masse to the Mach Five platform they would probably still do okay because their already established and because some of the momentum would have shifted to Mach Five momentarily, but at best I predict they would do as well as they have already been doing on Kontakt if not worse considering they now have to pay iLok, as opposed to the Kontakt libraries which make use the full version which a vast majority do use. And oh my goodness would the competition LOVE to see some of these companies go to Mach Five so that they can then reap the benefits from the vacuum left behind were such a move to occur...the momentum would quickly shift back to Kontakt. Thats why you don't see the urge to switch from any of them I think. Some have entertained the idea, some have even tested the waters (Sonokinetic, CineSamples)...but ultimately come running back to Kontakt in the end despite their gripes with NI.

Also the little guys that cant afford the licensing fees and protection of iLok, like the folks that sell their stuff at Samplelism would still be shut out, so there is no tangible solution to protecting them with this approach either.

3. An alternate group response - form a small skilled and possibly paid team to flood the net with fake downloads and spread disinformation

This is fool hardy, and I wouldn't tango with the shady characters that crack software. In essence you would have to fight fire with fire for this to have any sort of succes. You have to find able hackers for hire that can execute these things but these guys tend to be rogues. If anything your inviting the devil in, and if inexperienced folks attempt this themselves they are inviting retaliation from these guys and if they are capable of stealing personal information and or cracking sophisticated software than those are guys I do not want to mess with. Also, it seems like the risk outweighs any benefit here, as this sort of stuff again requires a lot of constant work, you would literally have to have a team on retainer doing this sort of thing and still you will encounter leaks.

4. Get directly involved in public education

I find this one amusing, because although its well meaning, its far too utopian and unrealistic. EastWest Lurker swears the problem is parenting...I see it as far more complex than that. A lot of these pirates are kids or young adolescents and their folks in many cases haven't the slightest clue how the online world works for most part. Does this mean that they didn't teach their kids that stealing is wrong? Of coarse not, that is ridiculous. So why do they do it? I think its because there is a culture that views this sort of thing as a victimless crime. They probably justify it by saying to themselves, well, I don't make money off of this...or, its just a hobby anyway...and lets face it, these kids would have NEVER bought this stuff on their own. For one, they cant afford professional grade software, period, unless their born with a silver spoon. Second, I imagine in most cases many parents wouldn't entertain what they think is their flavor of the month at being a composer if they asked them for their credit cards in an attempt to buy this stuff legitimately when a lot of the better stuff out there is cost prohibitive to most working class folks. When it comes to cheap stuff being pirated, I am sure those libraries arent nearly as pirated as the high end ones, and there is probably data to show if I am wrong or right here, but if I am right I assume its because in most cases I do think people would be 100% more likely to actually buy something that is dirt cheap even if it is just a hobby than they would a high cost one because in their minds they wouldnt be able to justify the high cost when it is just that, a hobby. But you will always have those who would have never bought it anyways, and if something is 5$ and its being ripped off, you can bet your life you would have never seen a dime from the likes of those guys, ever. These same people collect all sorts of cracked software, that in most cases they never put to much use, at least not the kind that would pose a threat to anyone here. The whole try before you buy thing is also an issue for some I would think. I for one have been burned on a few libraries I have purchased because of the amazing demos. That's not to say I do it myself or condone it, but I can see the angle there, and can totally see how some might want to try something out thoroughly before they buy it...I mean, there has to be a few of these guys out there you would think, right? In the end though, I think the real culprits of any company losing revenue comes from those who make a living from this using cracked software but you wont see any major or even up-and-coming composers using cracked software...you probably find that stuff on indie youtube channels from dudes that hire their buddies, not someone with a website, a good body of work and a list of credits to their name. And honestly, if your a Dev active on VI, who are you trying to target? Professionals, or hobbyist? If your goal as a Dev HERE is to make money from hobbyist than I say hang up your coats now, because in this cut throat business you have a snow flakes chance in hell of making it with that business model. I assume the vast majority of companies here make these products for professionals in the field and anyone who is up and coming...not a bunch of hobbyist sitting at home massacring their sophisticated libraries with drivel that no one will ever listen to or appreciate...and how many professionals do you guys know are using cracked software?

5. Watermarked samples

Tried and failed...I think it was worth a shot though, but as I said before how do you defend against false credentials and stolen identities?

Personally, I think the best solution thus far has to be 8dio's approach with the V8P Program. I don't see 8W leaking anytime soon, however...if it were to leak, do I think it will effect their sales of the 8W? Very doubtful, because the people that are even eligible to have access to it have already proven their dedication to supporting the Devs and are most likely professionals, which is what I hope 8dio and most companies here are targeting anyway. For a pirate to get his hands on the 8W he/she would have to buy nearly half their entire line, most of which has been leaked already, just to get at it...and yet, 8dio is going strong on the Kontakt platform, if anything their killing it! (in a good way)...again, it all ultimately comes down to cutting it in this business.

Dongles are another option, but there is the stuff I mentioned before about what a mass platform migration would probably look like but more directed at the dongles themselves there are activists out there who hate the idea of ever encroaching DRM. I myself am not too fond of them, but I put up with the 4-5 odd dongles I have to juggle because I am for the most part a push over in that regard...but I dread the day I ever lose one of these little bastards or if the buggers die on me. I like that iLok now has a computer activation process but I am still unclear about how it works and what happens if you upgrade your rig...I think that might also unintentionally open them up to some security holes, because if there is no dongle involved...


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## NKM (May 31, 2014)

Sorry to dig up an old topic but I suppose it never fails to be relevant.

Let me preface this by stating my history from music student that had a pirated version of the old VSL , used to steal food from the dorms because they were not open on the weekend and well, that was my $$ situation. So i\ve been on that end, and i've made the complete transition to a professional that pays for everything and cares about these creators. Not that i didn't before. 

I'm not going to defend my usage as a child because it is irrelevant. Scolding people that cheat and lie will not change things and arguing piracy and the actual damage done is complicated , never goes anywere and becomes a cluster f ck of circular logic, no logic, emotions hiding as logic. and the focus should be as the thread says, solutions. 

The issue is how to get people to buy in.

It is frustrating because of justified fear of having your work compromised and shared resulting in loss of sales and in cases i know loss of a business. But i don't think you have to have your products bundled in a locked format that penalizes the paying user. EW products have no appeal and i dont blame them but when a company refuses to give you the benifit of the doubt, references, a picture of your slave computers and will not allow at least a few licenses to share the load, and not to mention the locked format which , well I don''t like alot of the release tails for their products. I could fix this with kontakt products. But as is, it is unusable because they are scared of loosing everything and i get that. 

I think the solution lies in a format , that is not tied to a dongle, but a relatively complex licensing system that will be cracked but the key component that will make it irrelevant is that the product is constantly updated. These updates provide functions that perhaps will tip the scale for those that maybe just need a push to do the right thing. 

if developpers make products that make piracy more annoying, and given the reasonable price, more of a pain in the ass than to pay , well, i used to steal chocolate bars as a young kid. i stopped eventually. It was just easier to buy it. 

Developers need to understand that it will be cracked, and most people downloading are 13 year olds that don't[' use, will never buy it, and should not be even considered as potential loss. But if they accept that this will or might happen, create a system or schedule were you have a product that is never really finished. If the turnaround for a crack is a few months, strategically have planned updates that essentially make the cracked version not the same product. You will not win over the kids, but the pros are buying it, and that middle market, well this might sound crazy but it is an impulse buy. 

I can't state numbers but most of my purchases are done when i see something that i just want to have now and that immediacy, with reasonable pricing and the feeling that you are buying into more than just a product but a company .... 

I also think developpers need to be more strategic. I remember when i was using those VSL cracks. I asked if they sold a student version. The answer was a solid no. Now with the saturation of products, that kid will find something else, youv'e made no money, you've lost an opportunity to bring the next generation into the fold. 

But i understand that these are small teams. And ego often leads to terrible business decisions. It is unfortunate. I do think these teams should use that intimacy in a productive way. When i hear that this was made by 2 people that are musicians, i am more likely to support , to promote and to let people i catch using a version they did not pay for that i understand the justification, and i don't know your financial situation, but if you start seeing these teams as people, with families, i think it is a lot harder for those that can afford to not pay. 

I hope things improve. It is complex. There is more than piracy that is hurting many companies. Over-saturation , quick turn around for new products instead of really developing like Spitfire, not just something else, but a company that has a vision, something you can buy into. 

I don't mind dongles. I do get frustrated when they will not issue licenses for reasonable sitautons ie slave computers. i cannot stand locked platforms. articulations are never what you want and with play, that is it. If i need tighter stacatto, the ability to edit that on my own is essential just like being able to use the product on what i think is rather standard set of slave pcs which i would gladly send a picture. Now for big studios, sure they will pay. But there is a huge middle market that are not pros, that can afford a few libraries, maybe working to a career and it seems that class of buyer is given no consideration by many. 

watermarking will not stop it. But nothing will. As I mentioned, you need a reasonble defence, and a product that is never static always changing. include the product being cracked into the actual planning. Because it might happen and when it does, well these people don't see the harm or value. I think most of these twats just feel like they gained something of $$ value and never use it. 

to sum it up, give people more reason to buy. You won't end piracy. But you can't make the decision to buy a no brainer. Those that don't, some of them sure, need a stern bamboo stick on the arse but the others are people that will never buy. Forget about those people. Let them know that these companies are people, they have families, they make less than they should, they are usually 1-2 products within folding,and that is what needs to be drilled into peoples minds. You will never reach people lambasting and telling them their due even tho they deserve, it doesn't work. Yelling at someone that doesn't care will do nothing. So make them care, or focus on things you can change.


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## Luca Capozzi (May 31, 2014)

Hi NKM and thanks for sharing your experience. Just some thoughts:



NKM @ Sat May 31 said:


> if developpers make products that make piracy more annoying, and given the reasonable price, more of a pain in the ass than to pay , well, i used to steal chocolate bars as a young kid. i stopped eventually. It was just easier to buy it.



Price is not a critical factor since the usual teams often distributes cracked versions of very low cost (and often free) products. For low cost I mean <$10.



> Developers need to understand that it will be cracked, and most people downloading are 13 year olds that don't[' use, will never buy it, and should not be even considered as potential loss.



Not totally true. Sadly I know people that always use pirated versions of software they use. I talk of people over 30yo, with enough money to live.. That's not a matter of price, but it's a cultural factor: they don't want to pay for something "unreal". For them, software it's not a car or a bag of potatoes.. so why to pay for?



> But if they accept that this will or might happen, create a system or schedule were you have a product that is never really finished. If the turnaround for a crack is a few months, strategically have planned updates that essentially make the cracked version not the same product. You will not win over the kids, but the pros are buying it, and that middle market, well this might sound crazy but it is an impulse buy.



Believe me... there will be a warez version of every single update. Today those warez teams are very quick to release new versions of those softwares. 



> I can't state numbers but most of my purchases are done when i see something that i just want to have now and that immediacy, with reasonable pricing and the feeling that you are buying into more than just a product but a company ....



This is good and the evidence that's a cultural factor. Most of people have the bad habit to think that a software company is a big evil money making thing... while it's just other people with same problems as yours: bills, food, rent, etc. More often those companies are small and don't have the economic strenght to muffle the sales loss due to a pirated version of their products.



> When i hear that this was made by 2 people that are musicians, i am more likely to support , to promote and to let people i catch using a version they did not pay for that i understand the justification, and i don't know your financial situation, but if you start seeing these teams as people, with families, i think it is a lot harder for those that can afford to not pay.



That's good of you. Unfortunately you're not alone, but there are so many more who don't share your same view and keep using pirated software just because they're used to. Only a very small portion will become customers.



> to sum it up, give people more reason to buy.



Usually should be offering a good product a good reason to buy. If you see a car you like and you can afford it, what more reasons would you need?  But when it comes to software, it's always different for many persons... and there are many ways to get a software cheaper: resellers like "Don't Crack" and AudioDeluxe are two great examples.



> You won't end piracy. But you can't make the decision to buy a no brainer. Those that don't, some of them sure, need a stern bamboo stick on the arse but the others are people that will never buy. Forget about those people. Let them know that these companies are people, they have families, they make less than they should, they are usually 1-2 products within folding,and that is what needs to be drilled into peoples minds. You will never reach people lambasting and telling them their due even tho they deserve, it doesn't work. Yelling at someone that doesn't care will do nothing. So make them care, or focus on things you can change.



You're right and this is why I love my customers.. they are supportive and passionate.. and I know that if one of them will have some issues with one of my products, I'll do anything I can to help them. This IS a key element in dealing with our business: support. This, for now, cannot be pirated 

My 2 cents.

o-[][]-o 
Luca


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## Guy Rowland (May 31, 2014)

Coming to this after a haitus, it seems to me that the best solution that currently exists is iLok. After quite some time now, iLok 2 has never been hacked. The problem really is in the implementation - there are too many drawbacks which put people off. But, it seems to me that those are pretty easy fixes. Indeed, there were rumours at NAMM that PACE would be making some major changes to how iLok worked this year, for the better.

Here's one idea. Personally, I'd consider paying a few hundred bucks for a 2nd iLok which is cloned to the first. I'd keep one in the main DAW, and a 2nd in my work bag that goes everywhere on the road. They'd work as now, without needing net access. Then via the License Manager, you'd just sync online when you needed to update your licenses. There would need to be a way, as now, to deal with loss and thefts. I guess the obvious reason why something like this hasn't been done is that it would be awfully tempting for two friends to share a license.

Of course, even in this utopia, Kontakt doesn't support iLok. Personally - if iLok upped their game in some way to make the product less user-hostile - I'd be happy to see Kontakt 6 optionally support iLok for developers who wanted to go down that road. I think its highly unlikely, mind.


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## Mystic (May 31, 2014)

A lot of retailers make a bundle off selling multiple licenses of the same plugin to people who need more for multiple workstations so not sure how much they would go for it. 

I personally would like a better way of being able to get a replacement if something ever happens to my current iLok. I've heard it's a real pain in the ass if it either breaks, is stolen or what have you. I ran mine through the washer once upon a time and was terrified that it was destroyed. Luckily it was fine.


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## alextone (Jun 1, 2014)

The problem with iLok and other dongle based ideas is they only work on 2 operating systems, windows and mac. It's easy to say these are the overwhelming leaders, and companies shouldn't put effort into supporting other OSs, for which it is perceived the user base is fractional, but as a Linux/Wine user (and yes, i do this for a living) i get far greater stability with Linux, than i ever did with windows or mac.

And i use Kontakt as a lib format precisely because it works in wine (despite NI's intense dislike for Linux). Every email or blog i've ever seen asking NI to build a native linux version has been met with a wall of silence, so i don't expect that to change soon. But Wine/Kontakt gives me a chance to buy sample libs i want to use in a sample lib market that has, until now, completely ignored Linux, and other OSs as possible customer bases, in the almost paranoic pursuit of locking up their products in Win and Mac.
I acknowledge piracy is a problem. I don't like it as it devalues my paid for product, and potentially drives good SLM producers out of business.

But on the other hand, I'm not giving up the all day and night stability i get from a tuned Linux studio box, simply because an SLM decides i'm not worth his product, because i'm not using a "mainstream" operating system. No offence intended, but some of the SL products released have been fantastic, yet i haven't bought them because of proprietary dongle requirements. Is my cash a different colour or have a different odour? I just don't understand that.

We're not all tinfoil hat wearing unwashed hippies in the linux world, quite the contrary, there's a deal of effort required in setting up a linux system, but the rock solid stability, and ability to finetune the system makes it a powerful choice for a professional working environment where hardware is regularly taxed. 

The "Ubuntu" generation is here to stay (i say this as an analogy for growing linux usage) and will only grow further. Repositories like KXStudio have taken the hard work out of setting up a professional studio box, as an example.

Bluntly put,I simply won't buy if i can't use it. (Which goes for all formats. If it doesn't work, you've lost a sale.)

I made a buying decision recently, where i was tossing up buying VSL, or Spitfire (which i only heard about 2 months ago.) I went Spitfire of course (Mural 1) because it works in my setup, and VSL requires a dongle. I plan on buying more Spitifire over other libs, not only for that glorious sound, but their method of distribution and encryption works for me, as a non-mainstream OS user. (Outside of their lib downloader which requires .NET. Blech)

As soon as someone has the balls to produce a viable native 64bit Linux sampler that will load commercial sample libs, and the SL manufacturers among you add that to your format options, i'll give your libs a serious look, if they're up to standard, and i'll even tell everyone else i know of your....courage. 

With many linux users opting for Reaper and Kontakt in Wine/Linux, because they generally work, you have a chance to sell your libs to a ever growing customer base, who by statistic, spend more money on native commercial linux products, without pirating, compared to Win and Mac.

Whatever method of product protection is used, if it doesn't work for anything other than Win or Mac, it doesn't seem to make sense to me, from a business perspective, to purposely cut off a potentially greater opportunity to sell more stock.

If i were to run my business the same way, and not deal with a section of potential customers, because they weren't "mainstream" enough, i'd seriously struggle.

Someone made the point about good service and great products. It's there, imho, where sucess or failure will be determined, not in the pirate communities.

This is not a rant, more a heads up to SLMs who may be looking to potentially increase their user base in a growing market.

Alex.

p.s. In a way it's my own fault for getting Kontakt working in Wine. NI have even less incentive to consider a native linux version. Oh well..........


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## G.E. (Jun 1, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat May 31 said:


> Coming to this after a haitus, it seems to me that the best solution that currently exists is iLok. After quite some time now, iLok 2 has never been hacked.



With all due respect,you are fooling yourself if you think iLoks will stop piracy.Do you know why the iLok 2 has never been hacked ? Because hackers don't think they're worth the effort, since there are so many other options out there that are much easier to hack.

Let all developers start using iLoks and watch how hackers start focusing their attention on them.I give it 2 years at best until hacking an iLok will become a trivial task.

The only real solution is drastic legal consequences for anyone who downloads as much as a song without paying for it.


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## NKM (Jun 1, 2014)

The solution is simple. 

Make buying less of a hassle than stealing. 

The hard part is implementing things that's work. 

I agree with Luca that the cracks are usually close but not with all systems. And if you can make that difference enough to push that sale, well I think people will soon learn cracks for that product are pointless because the app has new features and that will help push some people 

Stealing is a behaviour that can become a habit. Even starting people off buying a small thing, is a step in the right direction. 

And the community should really stand by the developers outing anyone that is purposefully dodging a work expense. It was in the electronic dance music scene I. Believe but a big artist was using a crack. Not sure how they knew, something about the name that was displayed. That is just disgusting when professionals making money are doing it. 

I purchased wivi a few years back and I don't think it was ever cracked. It had no protection. These sorts of success stories seem like perhaps a start to see if anything is working. 

It's complicated. The perceived value is tarnished by the cracks out which sort of makes it worse. And people will of course purchase the one thst isn't cracked which I get , but that sucks for the other developer

And kontakt , 

NI needs to take a bigger initiative. I mean you have to wonder if they actually don't mind if it means people will buy the host to run the libraries. But ya, surely kontakt and developers could work something out.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 1, 2014)

G.E. @ Sun Jun 01 said:


> With all due respect,you are fooling yourself if you think iLoks will stop piracy.Do you know why the iLok 2 has never been hacked ? Because hackers don't think they're worth the effort, since there are so many other options out there that are much easier to hack.
> 
> Let all developers start using iLoks and watch how hackers start focusing their attention on them.I give it 2 years at best until hacking an iLok will become a trivial task.
> 
> The only real solution is drastic legal consequences for anyone who downloads as much as a song without paying for it.



Hmm. And you're quite sure about all that, are you? Pro Tools not enough for hackers to bother with? East West / Sonnox / Lexicon / Audio Ease / Steven Slate etc just not worth anyone's time or effort?

I'm not saying iLok 2 is invincible - surely nothing is given unlimited time and effort - but I don't buy for a second that the products currently protected are just not worth the hacking community's time.


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## exr777 (Jun 1, 2014)

Ilok Kontakt. 
Worked for everyone else.
If cracked, ilok 3. If cracked Ilok 4...

Easy.


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## exr777 (Jun 1, 2014)

My first post.... I'm ashamed...


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## G.E. (Jun 1, 2014)

> Hmm. And you're quite sure about all that, are you? Pro Tools not enough for hackers to bother with? East West / Sonnox / Lexicon / Audio Ease / Steven Slate etc just not worth anyone's time or effort?


I'm not saying that those products are not worth their time period.But why spend hundreds of hours on hacking them when there are other perfectly good alternatives? All I'm saying is that if everyone moved to an iLok ,they would suddenly have the proper motivation.


> I'm not saying iLok 2 is invincible - surely nothing is given unlimited time and effort


Exactly.Then we're not really in any kind of disagreement here.


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## Luca Capozzi (Jun 1, 2014)

NKM @ Sun Jun 01 said:


> The solution is simple.
> 
> Make buying less of a hassle than stealing.



Carts today are very hassle free.. add to cart, checkout with PayPal (or credit card) and go. Less hassles than buying an airplane ticket. But, as I wrote before, there are warez versions of FREE softwares and libraries  In my humble opinion, the truth is that people perceive a different value between physical and digital goods and the will to pay for an intangible item looks to be veeery low.

My 2 cents.

Cheers,
Luca


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## ModalRealist (Jun 1, 2014)

I'm pleased to say I haven't pirated material, despite having very tight financial resources as a student. However, the temptation is strong - *hear me out before you flame me!* The reason is very simple, and nothing to do with not wanting to reward developers for their hard work: it's about not wasting extremely limited funds. When I wrote in this forum last year asking for advice about what to get started with, a common point that came up was that one can only know if a sample library works for you once you've bought it and used it. That's all well and good if you're a working composer who can probably make back the cost of any given library using that library, even if you then abandon it. But for those who have not yet broken into commercial work, or have no intention of doing so, that simply isn't an option. That means that investing money - whether it be £300 or £1000 - in a library is a huge, huge commitment. And guess what? Developers don't let you return libraries, because they're "ephemeral software." You can see how some misguided individuals manage to justify to themselves that pirating "to test drive" is a-okay. Not only is there no legal way for them to do so, but once they have made the purchase, they'll be refused a refund on the grounds that it is "digital content" (as opposed to a physical product). The jump from that to the belief that it's okay to pirate it, because it's "just digital content" is, while absolutely mistaken, not a massive jump.

Now, this says nothing as to those who pirate when they could pay and remake their loss, or even those who have sufficient disposable income to buy whatever. And it is not a defense of those who do pirate in the name of "try before buy." It's just my take on why these people take themselves to be, to some extent, justified.

As for solutions, I don't think any copy protection system or legal regime will ever really stop people from doing this. Those who take the biggest risks - the hackers and their hosters - are ideologues who see themselves at the forefront of a war between creativity-stifling capitalism and art-blossoming anarchism. As has been pointed out, whatever becomes the most widespread and successful copy protection method will come under the most intensive fire.

Consider the Nintendo DS. It only accepted memory cards! But they hacked that: with custom-made memory cards that were selling in my local street market for £20 or so. Who's to say a company won't create an "iLok" that achieves the same end? And what's to say that it won't stay on open sale for the same reasons Nintendo were unable to shut down the DS memory cards?

Here's something people won't like: *I don't think there is a solution.* Not to the actual availability of pirated products. Then again, I think developers can *take steps to minimise the effect of piracy on their bottom line.* How? By *accurately targeting genuine lost sales.* A certain proportion of pirate downloads are not lost sales. They're made by kids wanting to try out cool software which they'll never learn to use, or by students or other low-income individuals desperate not to waste their precious cash on a product they don't gel with (at the forewarning of this very community, amongst others). There's no point in developers wasting time, money and energy on these people, because they're not losing money in the first place. To be efficient, developers *have to target those individuals who would, or could, buy their product but instead pirate it.* How do they do that? *Through culture.* I keep hearing stories about employed composers, known to the professional music industry, who use pirated plugins, samples libraries or software. I've heard about studios running pirated software, and so on. *It is these people who need to be named, shamed and torn down.* The ideologue hackers can't be stopped. The kiddies and students don't have any money to give you anyway. The cost of pursuing either is substantial no matter how you look at it. Instead, the focus should be on not just pursuing, but making socially and culturally impossible, the situation in which gainfully employed musicians, let alone _studios_ feel at liberty to use pirated products.

I think _that's_ a solution that could actually see developers' bottom lines benefit.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 2, 2014)

ModalRealist @ Sun Jun 01 said:


> I keep hearing stories about employed composers, known to the professional music industry, who use pirated plugins, samples libraries or software. I've heard about studios running pirated software, and so on. *It is these people who need to be named, shamed and torn down.*



This in itself is tricky. On more than one occasion here a developer has clearly insinuated a member is using pirated software. Each time I've seen it, the member has come back angrily, pointing out that the developer has apparently made false assumptions. It's a very difficult area, get it wrong and you'll further antagonise the customer base. You need to be 100% sure of your ground.


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## ModalRealist (Jun 2, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> ModalRealist @ Sun Jun 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I keep hearing stories about employed composers, known to the professional music industry, who use pirated plugins, samples libraries or software. I've heard about studios running pirated software, and so on. *It is these people who need to be named, shamed and torn down.*
> ...



I am thinking more of the culture as a whole across the industry, as opposed to calling people out here on VI-C. After all, this is the business culture or demographic of which developers are themselves a part; one might hope that, together with their users and the users' clients, steps could be taken to punish those cheating the system and making money off the back of it. I suspect this would be far cheaper and more effective for developers to pursue, in contrast with going after the warez scene as a whole.


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## gsilbers (Jun 2, 2014)

i still think my idea of trolling through pirated sites and uploading bad cracks and commenting thats its good... and have several groups of trollers also say its good, so real cracks will get diluted and kids trying to download will get frustrated and say fukit is a good idea. 
:mrgreen: 

and if its on a large scale of every company , plus 3rd party folks start doing the same.... 
=o


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 2, 2014)

gsilbers @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> i still think my idea of trolling through pirated sites and uploading bad cracks and commenting thats its good... and have several groups of trollers also say its good, so real cracks will get diluted and kids trying to download will get frustrated and say fukit is a good idea.
> :mrgreen:
> 
> and if its on a large scale of every company , plus 3rd party folks start doing the same....
> =o



#3 in the OP, in fact :wink: 

It's always seemed like a pretty good idea to me (as part of a raft of measures), the only real drawback is the time it takes up to do it well.


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## dinerdog (Jun 2, 2014)

I know there aren't any solutions that everyone would agree on, but I always thought that a LARGE library might filter out some of the volume of downloads. It has it's own drawbacks, but what if a library was 100GBs? Surely lower level hobbyists might skip it?

I know it's a PITA in other ways (storage and backup). And I know nothing of the technical requirements, but what if a developers library "block" was always 100GBs, no matter if it had one lib, or several? It was designed so that you HAD to have that basic, huge container for it to work, and then issue updates and new libs as needed. Professionals should have there systems setup to handle it, amateurs - not so much. Just a thought.


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## gsilbers (Jun 2, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> gsilbers @ Mon Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > i still think my idea of trolling through pirated sites and uploading bad cracks and commenting thats its good... and have several groups of trollers also say its good, so real cracks will get diluted and kids trying to download will get frustrated and say fukit is a good idea.
> ...



seeing that the big studios are spending extremes amount of money, procedures and workflows to lower movie pircay i think its a well investment for small indie companies. 
you get to see avengers in your country BEFORE it gets shown in the US??? thats no marketing coincidence.. its all because of piracy... and doing that takes a lot of time , money and effort by the studios. which seems to have paid off. 
thus, small software companies might need to start adjusting as well, by investing money, time and effort in different plans. of course.. that affects the price of their product and investment on new ones so at the end everyone looses.


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## Diffusor (Jun 2, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> gsilbers @ Mon Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > i still think my idea of trolling through pirated sites and uploading bad cracks and commenting thats its good... and have several groups of trollers also say its good, so real cracks will get diluted and kids trying to download will get frustrated and say fukit is a good idea.
> ...



Might work for the fly by night casual pirates on the "public" sites but that kind of stuff would be stamped out pretty quick in the "scene" I'd imagine.


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## Edward_Martin (Jun 2, 2014)

gsilbers @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> that affects the price of their product and investment on new ones so at the end everyone looses.



This is exactly right, to me it seems like a distraction in the first place that only hurts the legit customer and the company. The question is, If your a company that is doing well in this competitive market, is it worth the time and investment to stop the leaks? Keeping in mind that ONLY one thing has been proven to work thus far, dongles. Though unlikely, I'd like to see some numbers because every time this argument gets rehashed we get the same rhetoric as always sans any evidence to back it up. I follow the scientific method, If any Devs here have numbers that show sales for un-leaked products vs leaked products that more or less overlap in quality and functionality, or a product that has suffered a steep drop in sales immediately after a leak that isn't the result of a products natural revenue decline over time than putting it out there would certainly make us on the consumer end more sympathetic and certainly more willing to weather the nonsense that this seemingly hopeless endeavor entails. I will give you some examples: Dongles...flat out annoying, they can take up all of your USB ports if you own several different products with different dongles, and if you misplace or break any of 'em, your screwed. An obnoxious buying experience...Spitfire recently banned Paypal apparently because 1 out of 100 purchases was fraudulent, not to mention their half-baked new download manager. I don't blame them for the Paypal thing, but luckily for me this new measure is an impulse buy killer since it now requires having to deal with the bank to get any transactions through, sad day for them though. Increased prices, we'd be fools to think that the development of fancy new proprietary downloaders, watermarks, dongle licensing fees and the like doesn't directly translate to increased prices for us and a total distraction for them. I would only put up with this crap for something that I absolutely felt I needed, regardless of whether its free on the internet or not. I suspect most legit customers would do the same...so is it worth it? More importantly, since we are also on the receiving end of piracy, why don't companies come clean with us and show us some numbers to justify bringing us along for the joyous ride?


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## Synesthesia (Jun 3, 2014)

Edward_Martin @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> An obnoxious buying experience...Spitfire recently banned Paypal apparently because 1 out of 100 purchases was fraudulent, not to mention their half-baked new download manager. I don't blame them for the Paypal thing, but luckily for me this new measure is an impulse buy killer since it now requires having to deal with the bank to get any transactions through, sad day for them though.



This is incorrect. For obvious reasons I will not go into detail.


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## The Darris (Jun 4, 2014)

Robert Larsson @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> It's the kontakt plugin itself that's cracked, not the sample libraries you add to it.



This is not an entirely accurate statement. There are many libraries out there that have been ripped without any money going to the developers or the individuals who they were stolen from. In some cases, other are profiting off of these ripped libraries. CineSamples won a lawsuit a couple years ago from one individual selling off their license to others. You are correct in that these thieves are getting past Kontakt's way of recognizing the licenses though. 

The simple solution would be doing the USB key route. iLok would be ideal as it can contain different license keys from different developers and has yet (to my knowledge) taken a huge hit from piracy. However, I don't see NI doing this anytime soon.


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## kitekrazy (Jun 4, 2014)

gsilbers @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> i still think my idea of trolling through pirated sites and uploading bad cracks and commenting thats its good... and have several groups of trollers also say its good, so real cracks will get diluted and kids trying to download will get frustrated and say fukit is a good idea.
> :mrgreen:
> 
> and if its on a large scale of every company , plus 3rd party folks start doing the same....
> =o



Somehow that would probably backfire like you catch someone robbing your house, you wound them and you get charged with assault. Sony did something at one time regarding CDs and got busted.


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## benmrx (Jun 4, 2014)

I'm ALL for using some kind of USB key, dongle, iLok, what ever. I guess that's more in NI's hands though at least regarding Kontakt libraries. I do know that I'm probably not looking at Spitfire products anymore since they stopped using Paypal and that's my main source of funds for this stuff. *I completely understand why they did it*, but something tells me _I'm not the only customer they're going to loose_ by doing this. At least I got Logria and the Percussion Redux while I could! Speaking of....., I STILL have a 25% voucher for Spitfire......., not sure what I'm going to do with it now.


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## Darthmorphling (Jun 4, 2014)

dinerdog @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> I know there aren't any solutions that everyone would agree on, but I always thought that a LARGE library might filter out some of the volume of downloads. It has it's own drawbacks, but what if a library was 100GBs? Surely lower level hobbyists might skip it?
> 
> I know it's a PITA in other ways (storage and backup). And I know nothing of the technical requirements, but what if a developers library "block" was always 100GBs, no matter if it had one lib, or several? It was designed so that you HAD to have that basic, huge container for it to work, and then issue updates and new libs as needed. Professionals should have there systems setup to handle it, amateurs - not so much. Just a thought.



So you are advocating that a 5GB library be put inside a 100GB container?

Ummmm, no.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jun 4, 2014)

Kontakt needs to change their licensing program to be more accessible for smaller developers. The license to not require the full version of Kontakt 5 and authorize through Service Center is EXPENSIVE.


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## dinerdog (Jun 4, 2014)

Darthmorphing - I don't really know, but just wondering if there's a lower tech solution as it seems NONE of the high tech ones are working.

I'm pretty sure a LOT of people wouldn't feel like downloading a 100GB library, however, I don't know all the unintended effects that would cause.


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## Edward_Martin (Jun 5, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Tue Jun 03 said:


> This is incorrect. For obvious reasons I will not go into detail.



How so? Apart from not quoting you verbatim about the exact number of Paypal instances that you guys claimed were fraudulent how was what I said incorrect? I also don't see how its obvious either, why not elaborate it for us? Did you guys NOT cut Paypal? Because I am basically going by what you yourselves said on your own product thread. Or are you saying I am "incorrect" about it being more tedious now without Paypal? Because if that is what your referring too than that is AN opinion not a fact, and obviously I disagree.


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## Dietz (Jun 5, 2014)

dinerdog @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> I know there aren't any solutions that everyone would agree on, but I always thought that a LARGE library might filter out some of the volume of downloads. It has it's own drawbacks, but what if a library was 100GBs? Surely lower level hobbyists might skip it?
> 
> I know it's a PITA in other ways (storage and backup). And I know nothing of the technical requirements, but what if a developers library "block" was always 100GBs, no matter if it had one lib, or several? It was designed so that you HAD to have that basic, huge container for it to work, and then issue updates and new libs as needed. Professionals should have there systems setup to handle it, amateurs - not so much. Just a thought.



When VSL released their first libraries over a decade ago, we were naive enough to think that sizes like that would be a "natural" hurdle against piracy. Of course we were wrong. :evil: 

Long story short: Sales increased by leaps and bounds after the introduction of the eLicenser-based copy protection.

BTW ... what makes you think that professionals don't pirate software and/or libraries ...?

Kind regards,

/Dietz


.


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## Synesthesia (Jun 5, 2014)

Edward_Martin @ Mon Jun 02 said:


> Spitfire recently banned Paypal apparently because 1 out of 100 purchases was fraudulent,



Incorrect.


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## alextone (Jun 5, 2014)

Can i ask here to SLMs, why the aversion to linux? If e-licensing becomes the default, that automatically cuts off a chunk of the market, and excludes users.

Is there an assumption that linux users are somehow "piratical", or won't part with their cash? Or there's no market for native linux commercial products? (Which is ironic, because no one really knows, as there's been no serious attempt to cater for the linux OS.)

I don't understand why the assumption is made that serious users are only using win and mac, and any security considerations are only discussed with these 2 OSs in mind.

I've got a great system here, stable as hell, fast as a locomotive (able to load large sample libs in a single bound).

Just for once, i'd appreciate some honest input, and not dissembling, or a corporate wall of silence.

Last time i looked, my cash was as viable as the next chap's.

Alex.


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## G.E. (Jun 5, 2014)

alextone @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> Can i ask here to SLMs, why the aversion to linux? If e-licensing becomes the default, that automatically cuts off a chunk of the market, and excludes users.
> 
> Is there an assumption that linux users are somehow "piratical", or won't part with their cash? Or there's no market for native linux commercial products? (Which is ironic, because no one really knows, as there's been no serious attempt to cater for the linux OS.)
> 
> ...



I guess we'll have to see how bitwig does for a while and then we'll finally find out how "piratical" linux users are. :lol:


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## alextone (Jun 5, 2014)

Bitwig's not suitable for my workflow, but i get your point. (I'm using Reaper in Wine. Which is paid for.)

Alex.


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## nikolas (Jun 5, 2014)

Dietz @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> BTW ... what makes you think that professionals don't pirate software and/or libraries ...?


Unfortunately this is true! :( To a larger extent than what one would imagine...


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 5, 2014)

nikolas @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> Dietz @ Thu Jun 05 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW ... what makes you think that professionals don't pirate software and/or libraries ...?
> ...



Is VI-C a parallel universe? If anyone here owned up to using pirated software they'd be ripped limb from limb - at double speed for professionals. And rightly so. I've heard this now from several sources, some private and some public, that the amount of pirated software used by professionals is shocking. Logically, that must mean that there are VI-C members (and lurkers even more so) who do routinely use pirated stuff. Pretty depressing.


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## ModalRealist (Jun 5, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> Is VI-C a parallel universe? If anyone here owned up to using pirated software they'd be ripped limb from limb - at double speed for professionals. And rightly so. I've heard this now from several sources, some private and some public, that the amount of pirated software used by professionals is shocking. Logically, that must mean that there are VI-C members (and lurkers even more so) who do routinely use pirated stuff. Pretty depressing.



It's hard to distinguish between "consumer" and "pro" users in the sample market's price range, but one would have to say that where piracy impacts sales, it must be at least in part a result of pro's piracy rather than amateurs - given that most amateurs' will have significantly reduced financial resources. (As before, not defending them by saying this.) So if piracy is impacting sales (and I have no doubt that it is based on what I've heard) then I would assume that a critical mass of that piracy is from the pro segment.

I won't rename it but I remember reading one prominent member of VI-C saying in a thread a while ago that they knew someone in their city of work who used almost entirely pirated products, pitched their services at a lower rate to clients as a result, and therefore picked up work that legitimate owners of libraries missed out on.


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## M.L. (Jun 5, 2014)

I will try my best not to derail the thread, though it's mostly on topic.


Are there any affordable anti-piracy solutions for a beginner or small developers, and in my case, releasing a SFX library?

I looked into watermarking, such as continuata, but as far as I can tell continuata embed the nki files, not the audio files, and it's unlikely I'd make the release a kontakt library. Plus I can't figure watermarking would really do any good since I'd probably not have the money to pursue the pirate anyway!

I'm guessing iLok is probably expensive, and overkill for what I'd do.

Flooding the sites with fake cracks is not worthwhile imo.

Frankly, I'm still in the early stages and debating doing it at all. I don't know I'd be able to bear the devastation of seeing your product pirated like some of the developers on here have described.


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## M.L. (Jun 7, 2014)

Thanks Robert. I don't find iLok as much of a nuisance as some others do, but I don't travel with my gear. But a small SFX library requiring a dongle would probably be too much hassle for some! Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread so we can leave it at that. Thanks for your response though.


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## Synesthesia (Jun 8, 2014)

I really thought I'd seen the worst of the seedy world of piracy over the last few months, but today I really was sickened to discover that some piece of shit has uploaded all of our LABS instruments to a pirate sharing website.

These instruments we receive literally nothing for, and they cost the user a GBP 2 donation to UNICEF.

Whatever scum uploaded these, I hope they get the karma that they are due for stealing money from the table of the organisation that helps try to save and protect sick and dying children in over 190 countries.

I'm truly disgusted. I hope this piece of shit rots in hell.


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## Casey Edwards (Jun 8, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> I really thought I'd seen the worst of the seedy world of piracy over the last few months, but today I really was sickened to discover that some piece of shit has uploaded all of our LABS instruments to a pirate sharing website.
> 
> These instruments we receive literally nothing for, and they cost the user a GBP 2 donation to UNICEF.
> 
> ...



Wow, that's truly disgusting! I don't even know what else to say to that. Just awful. I hope Mick's Dubstep library for charity didn't also get uploaded.


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## Guy Rowland (Jun 8, 2014)

Aish. What can you say?


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 9, 2014)

Ultimately the best way to create business in any business is to make people want to come to you, make them want to buy from you and once they buy from you to want them to come back repeatedly to buy from you.
If you want them to come to you, you need to let folks know you exist and to give them a reason for you to be the destination.
If you want them to buy from you, you need to convince them that your product is good value for money (better than your competitors), useful to them and convenient.
If you want them to come back, you need to make the initial purchasing experience enjoyable and the product something they will use and enjoy on a regular basis.
If you can do all that you will have both initial volume and long term loyalty. 
Whatever you think of NI, they have accomplished both better than any other company in the vi-control world. Their name is well known, their website is easy to use and attractive, their service center is easy to use, when you get their products they work, are fun and you can get lots of free stuff for them. 'eck I'm not a synth guy and all the free stuff from NI's web services for Reaktor is making me mess with it more and more.
Compare to EastWest, by reputation, I've never used their stuff. It is not as well known as NI, is an inconvenient first purchase (the dongle). The website is confusing and the constant sales are aimed at making you buy vast portions of their product, not some nice intro package while NI gives away intro packages, according to lots of feedback available to the public Play sucks and customer service sucks.
Which model are you following and do you think it might effect your sales more than any amount of piracy? Do you do anything to make buying easier than pirating? Do you do anything to make owning a purchased product more desirable than owning an illegal version? Do you do anything to make people loyal to you and want to buy to support you personally?


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## Luca Capozzi (Jun 9, 2014)

Most of us (developers) are using very straightforward carts and payment methods. You simply add the product, go to checkout, pay and download. Simpler than that?


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## Edward_Martin (Jun 9, 2014)

Synesthesia @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> Whatever scum uploaded these, I hope they get the karma that they are due for stealing money from the table of the organisation that helps try to save and protect sick and dying children in over 190 countries.



This is a perfect example of what I mentioned earlier. If a library is dirt cheap and still gets pirated, do we honestly think those people would have forked over the money for them under any other circumstances? Granted, this is an especially depressing example because these libraries support a good cause. However, one wonders who is worse: the leaker or the people downloading them that had prior knowledge that these were super cheap and go towards a good cause? I say that because the knee jerk reaction by some companies might be to make even more heavy handed moves towards more security that only end up hurting the honest consumer and fail to actually fix the problem. This is just a hypothetical, but imagine if this particularly nasty instance prompted Synesthesia to move towards dongle based security. Do you guys think people will suffer a dongle based 2$ dollar library? Even if it is for a good cause. Keeping in mind that the people downloading them via these sites would have never contributed a nickle towards them and that the then good folks ready and willing to help out would then have to deal with obstacles towards that aim, I argue, are the preventive measures we sometimes take even worth the grief, time, money when in the end they ultimately do nothing but hurt companies and end users themselves? Is it better if we just forget that these people even exist?


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## Daryl (Jun 9, 2014)

Edward_Martin @ Mon Jun 09 said:


> This is just a hypothetical, but imagine if this particularly nasty instance prompted Synesthesia to move towards dongle based security. Do you guys think people will suffer a dongle based 2$ dollar library? Even if it is for a good cause.


Once you have a dongle, it really doesn't matter. Any inconvenience you might have to put up with has already been dealt with, so it makes no difference. However, you wouldn't protect $2 library on a dongle, because the licence fees for using that dongle would most likely outweigh the benefits.

D


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jun 9, 2014)

Stupid question probably. No...most likely.

What would you trade a dongle for?

The challenge response system doesn't really work that I know of.
Even dongles are crackable.

This is an issue in the game industry, and most people have gone the way of "Always On DRM" except they just design the game to need to server and say it doesn't have DRM (Simcity 2013)

I'm curious to know if anyone would care about that in the sample industry.

iLok is great, however if it goes down, like 60% of your libs go with it until they fix the issue.


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## Will Armitage (Aug 15, 2014)

I think that in the end, the iLok punishes the consumer more than pirates. About 3 months ago, I was debating whether I should buy Native Instruments Komplete 9 or The Complete Composers Collection 2, by EastWest. I chose Native Instruments because not only is the Kontakt player superior to the "Play" system, but also under the principle that they were going to charge me $40+ dollars for the iLok USB device. Given how much I was going to spend in the first place ($700+), they couldn't throw in a small piece of plastic that would probably only cost them a few bucks wholesale? Not to mention that it takes up a valuable USB slot... I think the only solution is to lower the price of Libraries, so that more people can afford them. They will make less per unit, but the quantity sold would greatly increase...it's possible consumers would spend the money saved on even more products. It might be worth running a competitive equilibrium analysis (feel free to Google if needed) on their sales data. To sum it up, it compares supply, demand and price and see where all three intersect to optimize profits. A simplified example of the concept would be "Would it be better to sell 1 piece of pizza for $100 or 1 piece of pizza for $1". Obviously the former would be more profitable per unit, but not in terms of gross sales. I don't support piracy and don't partake in it myself. However, when you need to spend thousands of dollars to build a decent template and "free" software is only a click away, do the math. If there was only a virtual instrument store like Steam. It would greatly decrease piracy. The only drawback is that it would require multiple vendors to actually work together to achieve a common goal, which I don't see happening. There is no way to completely stop piracy, it's a fact of life, as bad as it is. Most DRM is intrusive to the consumer....and most pirates bypass it anyway and ironically enough, sometimes get a superior experience to the consumer as a result. The best way to counteract piracy is to build great customer relations or heck, even laying out the costs of producing/labor of compiling a single library so they know why it's so expensive to make. If a consumer feels loyalty to a brand, they will not only support you, they will literally feel guilty about pirating and refrain from partaking in it, as it will hurt a brand they are loyal to.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 15, 2014)

Will Armitage @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I think the only solution is to loIf a consumer feels loyalty to a brand, they will not only support you, they will literally feel guilty about pirating and refrain from partaking in it, as it will hurt a brand they are loyal to.



Millions of people worship certain performers and don't pay for their recordings. I wish what you're saying was so, but I don't think statistics support your thesis. It seems that by and large if people can steal, they will. This makes life so much more challenging for software developers.

The recent iLok debacle was terrible, but I'm not a big music house, I'm just a guy, and I have never had one problem with iLok or any other protection scheme. I support developers doing whatever they have to do to protect their work. YMMV and obviously does.


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## JerryS (Aug 15, 2014)

Interesting discussion for me as this is something that I will have to give a great deal of thought to in the next year although not for anything to do with libraries. Just a few random thoughts/questions:

1) Regarding the LABS instruments, it seems that one possibility is that it was the pirate site itself, perhaps with a view to search engine optimization.

2) I am a little shocked to hear that so many of the folks in this thread seem to know people who use pirated stuff. I was under the impression that most piracy is done either by college kids or by people in much poorer countries. I thought that there were so many problems with getting pirated stuff to work and such a significant likelyhood of getting a virus that most adults in the developed world would avoid using pirated stuff.

3) Regarding watermarking, I wonder whether it is possible to have individual watermarks. Then you could sue the bejeezes out of whoever uploads the first copy to a pirate site. Put very strong language in the contract and then as long as their copy is the one that is getting downloaded from the pirate sites, they are on the hook for significant damages. Restrict sales to people in countries that allow you to go after uploaders in court in this way.


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## Synesthesia (Aug 16, 2014)

Will Armitage @ Fri Aug 15 said:


> I think that in the end, the iLok punishes the consumer more than pirates. About 3 months ago, I was debating whether I should buy Native Instruments Komplete 9 or The Complete Composers Collection 2, by EastWest. I chose Native Instruments because not only is the Kontakt player superior to the "Play" system, but also under the principle that they were going to charge me $40+ dollars for the iLok USB device. Given how much I was going to spend in the first place ($700+), they couldn't throw in a small piece of plastic that would probably only cost them a few bucks wholesale? Not to mention that it takes up a valuable USB slot... I think the only solution is to lower the price of Libraries, so that more people can afford them. They will make less per unit, but the quantity sold would greatly increase...it's possible consumers would spend the money saved on even more products. It might be worth running a competitive equilibrium analysis (feel free to Google if needed) on their sales data. To sum it up, it compares supply, demand and price and see where all three intersect to optimize profits. A simplified example of the concept would be "Would it be better to sell 1 piece of pizza for $100 or 1 piece of pizza for $1". Obviously the former would be more profitable per unit, but not in terms of gross sales. I don't support piracy and don't partake in it myself. However, when you need to spend thousands of dollars to build a decent template and "free" software is only a click away, do the math. If there was only a virtual instrument store like Steam. It would greatly decrease piracy. The only drawback is that it would require multiple vendors to actually work together to achieve a common goal, which I don't see happening. There is no way to completely stop piracy, it's a fact of life, as bad as it is. Most DRM is intrusive to the consumer....and most pirates bypass it anyway and ironically enough, sometimes get a superior experience to the consumer as a result. The best way to counteract piracy is to build great customer relations or heck, even laying out the costs of producing/labor of compiling a single library so they know why it's so expensive to make. If a consumer feels loyalty to a brand, they will not only support you, they will literally feel guilty about pirating and refrain from partaking in it, as it will hurt a brand they are loyal to.



Hi Will.

Unfortunately several of your key assumptions are not true.

People have pirated our LABS range which is free apart from a £2 donation to the childrens international charity UNICEF.

People pirate free libraries and share them.

The law is beginning to take notice though and I have heard from some of our US based friends that the FBI are investigating some instances and the UK police are investigating over here as well.

Copyright theft is commonly accompanied by fraud, which does tickle the fancy of the law. I struggle to understand the mindset that its fine to use stolen CC details to buy from online vendors.

Theft is theft. I'd love a Maserati but sadly I can't afford one. I would have loved Waves Platinum when I was a young composer, but I couldn't afford it so I had to save up. I didn't choose to steal it.

Thanks,

Paul


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## tcollins (Aug 16, 2014)

M.L. @ Thu Jun 05 said:


> I will try my best not to derail the thread, though it's mostly on topic.
> 
> 
> Are there any affordable anti-piracy solutions for a beginner or small developers, and in my case, releasing a SFX library?
> ...



IMO, the best approach for small companies is using a file take down service. They are relatively inexpensive, and punish the pirate sites while leaving your customers free of hurdles. I became convinced of this when, 2 weeks after it's release, one of our products was aggressively pirated. After a few weeks of using a take down service, the vast majority of the illegal links were disabled and sales returned. Some people will only buy if they can't steal, or if it's too much much of a hassle to find a working link.
I don't quite understand why this approach hasn't been discussed more in this thread. The more time that a pirate file sharing site has to spend chasing down DMCA complaints, the less time they will have for, I don't know, pillaging and drinking rum. It could be that most companies are actually using this method in conjunction with copy protection.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 16, 2014)

JerryS @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> 3) Regarding watermarking, I wonder whether it is possible to have individual watermarks.



Er, isn't that precisely how watermarking works already?



tcollins @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> IMO, the best approach for small companies is using a file take down service. They are relatively inexpensive, and punish the pirate sites while leaving your customers free of hurdles. I became convinced of this when, 2 weeks after it's release, one of our products was aggressively pirated. After a few weeks of using a take down service, the vast majority of the illegal links were disabled and sales returned. Some people will only buy if they can't steal, or if it's too much much of a hassle to find a working link.
> I don't quite understand why this approach hasn't been discussed more in this thread. The more time that a pirate file sharing site has to spend chasing down DMCA complaints, the less time they will have for, I don't know, pillaging and drinking rum. It could be that most companies are actually using this method in conjunction with copy protection.



Now that's a very interesting post. From an outsider's perspective Tracy, I've always understood the problem to be like whack-a-mole - you hit one and another just pops right up, and ultimately it's a futile exercise. But I think someone else on the thread also reported some success with a take down service, it would be terrific if this actually works as advertised. Is it useful to pass on the name of the service so other developers can try it out?


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## TheUnfinished (Aug 16, 2014)

Ah, the old "make it cheaper and they will come" argument has reared its silly head again has it?

Sorry, but if that was in any way, shape or form how things worked then everything would just be cheap. It also rather presupposes that the developer/seller hasn't thought about what the best price for their market is. Which is a bit disingenuous.

I'm yet to be convinced that the vast majority of piraters would buy the product they've pirated if it wasn't available for free. Where I've seen piraters 'brave' enough to enter a conversation about piracy, they've almost always been disrespetcful, selfish and ignorant. So...


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 16, 2014)

I think it is not helpful to generalize when talking about the behavior of people - our actions and choices are dictated by a number of factors and elements which vary from person to person. For example...

* Is the product available for pirate download? Almost all digital products (samples and otherwise) are, but hundreds of millions of people still buy digital products. Therefore, availability of a pirated copy is not the only consideration.

* Is the product available for legitimate purchase in the customer's region? As availability is restricted, piracy generally increases, as even a legitimate buyer may be unable to purchase a product and therefore chooses to acquire it illegally seeing no other alternative. In the music world, there are albums which are out-of-print and unavailable for purchase anywhere. People who pirate such albums are not necessarily in the same category as people who pirate music software for commercial use.

* Is the price of the product too high? This ties in to availability. This is not a moral or ethical justification for piracy, but it IS certainly one of many factors. Adobe Photoshop is one of the most heavily pirated pieces of software. It's very likely that the rate of piracy would have decreased with price. This doesn't mean lowering price is a good business decision either, but the correlation is important to note.


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## JerryS (Aug 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> Er, isn't that precisely how watermarking works already?



Yeah, I realized this morning, I was confused. I was conflating it with a general watermark to make it easier for youtube to find songs that should not appear on their site. I believe there is such a thing. Not sure what that is called. 

How have the samples watermarks worked out? Have the found any Grammy/Oscar winners with pirated samples? Any court cases?


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## gbar (Aug 16, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> Ah, the old "make it cheaper and they will come" argument has reared its silly head again has it?
> 
> Sorry, but if that was in any way, shape or form how things worked then everything would just be cheap. It also rather presupposes that the developer/seller hasn't thought about what the best price for their market is. Which is a bit disingenuous.
> 
> I'm yet to be convinced that the vast majority of piraters would buy the product they've pirated if it wasn't available for free. Where I've seen piraters 'brave' enough to enter a conversation about piracy, they've almost always been disrespetcful, selfish and ignorant. So...




I always thought pirate rejoinders went something along the lines of "Information Should be Free! Who is John Galt? Ban the Fed! Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin!".



I, unfortunately, work for a company that had me sign a rather lengthy contract that clearly stipulates any such piracy in any way, shape or form is grounds for immediate dismissal, do not pass go, do not collect a next paycheck.

So... I am stuck with my integrity intact despite being familiar with some of the loonier rationalizations for said acts of piracy. 

Signed, a retail customer.


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## gsilbers (Aug 16, 2014)

if a software developer/sample library company uploads their product to torrent site but adds malware, virus etc, could that bring legal repercussions?


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## Mystic (Aug 16, 2014)

gsilbers @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> if a software developer/sample library company uploads their product to torrent site but adds malware, virus etc, could that bring legal repercussions?


Correct, it would lead to litigation against the company.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 16, 2014)

Mystic @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> gsilbers @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > if a software developer/sample library company uploads their product to torrent site but adds malware, virus etc, could that bring legal repercussions?
> ...



Are you an attorney?


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## gsilbers (Aug 16, 2014)

Mystic @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> gsilbers @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > if a software developer/sample library company uploads their product to torrent site but adds malware, virus etc, could that bring legal repercussions?
> ...



i say because, it would be like stealing a prius car and then sueing toyota for the brake issue/suden accelaration... the car is stolen in the first place. 
at the same time, the initial intent of the company was to harm. unless the EULA of the harmful code at install would have this info and the torrent user just clicked "accept" (like we all do when installing any software).


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## RiffWraith (Aug 16, 2014)

Mystic @ Sun Aug 17 said:


> gsilbers @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > if a software developer/sample library company uploads their product to torrent site but adds malware, virus etc, could that bring legal repercussions?
> ...



You sure about that? I know in many jurisdictions (here in the USA as one ex.) you are not allowed to do things like booby trap your car in order to stop someone from stealing it... at least not to the extent that the thief will be caused any harm. But you are allowed to add anti-theft devices, such as an ignition cutoff, which will disable the car when stolen.

Are you absolutely sure that adding a virus or malware to an upload will open the dev up to litigation?


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 16, 2014)

The dev doesn't have to write a virus or malware or anything harmful...

They should just write a program that darkens the screen and says - "Hi, we know you wanted <library X>, but instead, we have logged your IP address and submitted it to the FBI. Thank you for attempting to illegally download our software. Have a nice day  "


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## tcollins (Aug 16, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> Now that's a very interesting post. From an outsider's perspective Tracy, I've always understood the problem to be like whack-a-mole - you hit one and another just pops right up, and ultimately it's a futile exercise. But I think someone else on the thread also reported some success with a take down service, it would be terrific if this actually works as advertised. Is it useful to pass on the name of the service so other developers can try it out?



Guy-
It is whack-a-mole, and obviously a lot of downloads happen before links are disabled. And it's not 100 percent. These services have automated the process somehow, which allows them to do this more efficiently than the copyright owner. And believe me, you don't want to mess with the pirates on your own! But I owe it to my paying customers to give it my best shot, so I pay for the service. 

One such service is DMCA Force, who I believe has advertised on VI-control. I'm using a different company, but please PM if you would like more info.


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## tcollins (Aug 16, 2014)

TheUnfinished @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> Ah, the old "make it cheaper and they will come" argument has reared its silly head again has it?
> 
> Sorry, but if that was in any way, shape or form how things worked then everything would just be cheap. It also rather presupposes that the developer/seller hasn't thought about what the best price for their market is. Which is a bit disingenuous.
> 
> I'm yet to be convinced that the vast majority of piraters would buy the product they've pirated if it wasn't available for free. Where I've seen piraters 'brave' enough to enter a conversation about piracy, they've almost always been disrespetcful, selfish and ignorant. So...



I agree that the vast majority of piraters would not buy anyway, but I am convinced that a certain percentage would. It is my experience that when a product suddenly explodes into pirate sites the sales fall. A lot. As the download links are disabled the sales slowly rise. Perhaps other devs have different experiences? 
I would bet that the vast majority of people that download pirated sample libraries have no idea what they have downloaded. As soon as they discover that they can't design their own characters they just delete it. :D


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## soniccouture (Aug 19, 2014)

tcollins @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> I agree that the vast majority of piraters would not buy anyway, but I am convinced that a certain percentage would. It is my experience that when a product suddenly explodes into pirate sites the sales fall. A lot. As the download links are disabled the sales slowly rise. Perhaps other devs have different experiences?




To give another developers perspective to this extensive thread: As with Mike, the NI strategy was also explained to us many, many years ago, and I am very grateful that it was:

_Make great products at the right price and people will buy them. Do not waste your time and money trying to fight piracy, it does not work.
_

It is frankly baffling that people don't get it, when the clear evidence is there: 

NI products are all pirated.
NI make millions of euros profit, and employ hundreds of people.

*ergo: pirated products do not adversely affect business.*

And even though it has been said many times, people do not believe it. They don't seem to want to believe it. A developer sees his product on a torrent site, and it makes him angry - he sees that some people are stealing his product, and assumes that is the reason that his sales are very low.

That is not the case.

1. The reason that his sales are very low is that nobody wants to buy his product.

2. The people who are stealing his product would never ever buy it if it were not available free.

The two groups do not really overlap, not to any extent that is worth worrying about.

You have to give people lots of reasons to want to buy your product. The most basic is making a good product, but that goes without saying. You have to give it a great name, a great image, nice artwork. You have to make your website appealing, easy to navigate, inclusive. You have to offer a great experience that makes the idea of buying appealing - the same as going into a nice clothes store or BMW showroom.

Many niche sample developers products are hugely overpriced, IMO. In the current market place you can buy Logic Pro for €199, and yet Developer X releases his non-encoded Kontakt library of sampled arpeggios or whatever for €249. Isn't it obvious? This is not good value for money. The argument that _'I'm a very small company so i have to charge more'_ is completely false. You can price your products high, but people won't buy them, they'll go and buy an NI product for €99!
Value is always dependant on the context of the wider market, not just your own companies internal economy.


James


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 19, 2014)

Thanks James, its really good to get different developer's input on this thread.

I agree with much of what you say, indeed there's a lot that's unarguable. But I think it might be a little more nuanced than how you describe it. Several developers have said (some privately) that they saw their sales fall off a cliff the moment their product hit the torrent sites. Maybe they're all lying but I don't think so. So how does one square that away with your experience?

The answer, I suspect is actually deceptively simple - both viewpoints are true. As you say, NI get ripped off constantly, and yet they make money and employ hundreds. With their scale and expertese, they are able to make money despite the piracy. But I do have sympathy with the small developers whose profit margin is perhaps much tighter. And yet, from an outside perspective, that is surely true of Sonic Couture, and I can only summise from your post that you also are also doing ok despite piracy.

I'm still not sure if it is worth developers using takedown sites. I'm not sure I can weigh up the cost / effort / benefit. It's pretty clear though that developers all vary hugely with regard to how much they are concerned by it all. But I suspect James is right that pragmatism wins in the end - if you're going down the NI route, its best to factor piracy into your business plans and make the figures add up despite it.


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## soniccouture (Aug 19, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> Thanks James, its really good to get different developer's input on this thread.
> 
> I agree with much of what you say, indeed there's a lot that's unarguable. But I think it might be a little more nuanced than how you describe it. Several developers have said (some privately) that they saw their sales fall off a cliff the moment their product hit the torrent sites. Maybe they're all lying but I don't think so. So how does one square that away with your experience?
> 
> ...





Hi Guy,

To address each of your points:

1. No, of course i'm not suggesting they're lying. I strongly suspect that what is actually happening is that the natural sales rush that comes at the time of the products launch dies away at more or less the same time it gets uploaded to a torrent site - not the same day of course, but a product will generally sell very well for the first month, then drop off a lot. As more copies are out there, inevitably a bad apple will upload the product. The temptation is to see the two events as related, but in fact I doubt this is true.

2. Why is a smaller developers profit margin tighter than NI ? They don't have expensive offices in Berlin & LA to pay for, or all the management infrastructure. In many cases, where the Kontakt library is not even encoded, and they are only sampling synths or a single acoustic instrument, the costs are extremely low. The margins for an indie dev are enormous, to be honest. NI tend to license or outsource most of their production for Kontakt products, so are normally paying a royalty as well as production and marketing costs.

3. We have experimented a little with takedown services recently, and initial results suggest that it's making very little difference to sales.


Yes, Soniccouture does Ok. We have been in business 10 years next year, and we pay our bills and make a good living. Do I wish that every pirated copy out there had been paid for? Yes, of course, but that's not how it works. Every business is a challenge and you do whatever it takes. I have no time for people sitting back and complaining the world is against them. People rarely succeed with that attitude.


James


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 19, 2014)

Fair dos, James, interesting theory regarding the sales drop off. Any other devs wish to comment? The thread was started as a result of 9VA feeling they were on to a losing battle with the pirates, but if what James says is correct then perhaps there's no cause for alarm after all?


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## Mike Greene (Aug 19, 2014)

soniccouture @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> It is frankly baffling that people don't get it, when the clear evidence is there:
> 
> NI products are all pirated.
> NI make millions of euros profit, and employ hundreds of people.
> ...


Not to nitpick, but that's not a logically sound conclusion. We could conclude from the NI example that _"It is possible to do very well, even with piracy,"_ but we can't conclude that pirated products do not adversely affect their business. For all we know, their sales might be much higher if they had stronger CP. Might not, of course, but there's no logical inference one way or the other.

In fact, if they really want to put their money where their mouth is and show us they truly believe piracy is a non-factor, then why don't they remove their CP altogether? I believe that NI does believe in CP, but their market is less likely to buy iLoks, so that option is off the table. And they don't have the ability to do better internal CP. So they gloss over the whole issue and tell us developers that the key to our success and happiness is to make great products and price them competitively. I personally find this a very arrogant thing for them to tell me.

As a counterargument, it's worth noting that Eric Persing (of Spectrasonics) has stated numerous times that in his own case, he's seen sales increase dramatically when he added copy protection. I'm not saying Eric (or Steven Slate, for that matter, who also tried it both ways and now uses iLok) is right and NI is wrong. I'm just saying I don't believe the evidence is clear one way or the other.

I'll also note that there was a thread a few months ago on one of the private music VI sharing "clubs" where a member started a thread that was more or less a confessional that when he wants a new product, he'll buy it only if he can't find a torrent for it. The thread went on for pages with others chiming in that they had similar habits. (An interesting thing about these clubs is that many members actually do buy a lot of expensive titles. Many do have the money, but they spend it only where they need to.)

Don't get me wrong, I agree completely that dwelling too much on piracy is a bad use of time. But I don't agree that what NI tells us we should do is a true solution either.


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## soniccouture (Aug 19, 2014)

Additionally, to support what I said about the product itself being the main factor driving sales - last year we released, amongst others, 2 products. I won't name them, but one of them went on to be by far and away our biggest and fastest selling product to date. The other surprised us by being probably our lowest selling product to date. the first outsold the latter by at least a factor of ten.
I consider both to be very good products of their type, although very different in style.

That to me illustrated the importance of product perfectly; if you have something people really want, they WILL buy it from you. If you release something that people don't want or need, they won't.

Build a better mousetrap.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 19, 2014)

Agreed 1000%. Plenty of developers are thriving despite piracy!


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## soniccouture (Aug 19, 2014)

Mike Greene @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> Not to nitpick, but that's not a logically sound conclusion. We could conclude from the NI example that _"It is possible to do very well, even with piracy,"_ but we can't conclude that pirated products do not adversely affect their business. For all we know, their sales might be much higher if they had stronger CP. Might not, of course, but there's no logical inference one way or the other. In fact, if they really want to put their money where their mouth is and show us they truly believe piracy is a non-factor, then why don't they remove their CP altogether?



Fair enough, Mike. of course there is no real proof one way or another. However, NI did experiment with all kinds of CP in the early days of the company, way back in the early 2000s. Their conclusion was that the cost and effort outweighed the benefit, as well as penalising customers. I think that their current 'CP' is less about protection and more about getting the customer to register and monitor usage etc. It is also very effective at stopping 'sharing' amongst otherwise legit customers, which I do think is a benefit of any CP; it won't stop a hardcore pirate, but it will stop producer A passing it to the studio he's working in that week.



Mike Greene @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> As a counterargument, it's worth noting that Eric Persing (of Spectrasonics) has stated numerous times that in his own case, he's seen sales increase dramatically when he added copy protection. I'm not saying Eric (or Steven Slate, for that matter, who also tried it both ways and now uses iLok) is right and NI is wrong. I'm just saying I don't believe the evidence is clear one way or the other.



Ok, again, fair enough. I don't have access to his figures. But I would suggest that as always, it may not be that clear-cut. I'd be prepared to bet that Eric introducing CP coincided with the release of his newer era products, Atmosphere, etc, and their success compared with sales of his older sample CD style products was so marked that some of that success was attributed to CP. But the reality is probably more that they were much better, more appealing and widely accessible style products. But that's just conjecture, of course. But the temptation to view Eric as some kind of all-knowing behemoth in the industry due to his huge (and deserved) success should be tempered with some caution; and of course I could also point out that NI are way more successful than Spectrasonics. No one has all the answers.

I would also counter that argument by pointing to one of my favourite plug-in devs, PSP audioware. They went down the iLok route a few years ago. They have since removed it all again, returning to simple SN authorisation, claiming that Ilok was more trouble than it was worth, and presumably, did not significantly increase sales.


James


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## markwind (Aug 19, 2014)

Just want to say that I find this thread hugely interesting. Just proves how invaluable this community its. 

Being a man of nuance myself, I see part of the problem originating in how piracy has been conceptualized from the get go. "Theft" is the repeated and dominant term, but wrongly so. The use of it is copied from the real world and applied to a digital world where things are not gone after someone has copied them. Piracy is quite literally unlawful access to something in various degrees. The problem this brings, is when we say theft, we intuitively associate it with the idea of something being taken away and thusly feel more impacted by it's prevalence. Piracy does not inherently imply this. Piracy is ONLY about unlawful access (with a potential for implied financial losses at a much lower number then the folks illegally having access).

That being said, it is truly safe to trust that free downloads beings available will hurt sales to some degree. How much? I'll give you a comparison that can NOT be taken as a direct argument to situation with libraries, but offers some form of a principle that governs Torrents and the likes; Recently the EU decided that downloading films etc is illegal, or so our Dutch government had interpreted the decision for Holland. The result? The immediate illegality of downloading films and music. That's right, downloading was legal, uploading however, wasn't. Basically putting blame at those who offer rather then those who use. Anyway to the point; when this change happened the first thing that started happening was people were getting Netflix accounts, as video rentals is dead and not of this time to make sure they were getting their share of entertainment. Quite literally, it was the first thing people mentioned when reading this news (the people being students and employees at a temporary job I had). -- As a reminder, this is a society who didn't look favorably on downloading, it was still a not-done thing, and heavily fought by various rightholding-organisations, but the law hadn't yet reached it's final conclusion on the matter. 

The governing principle? There are folks whose would pay if downloading weren't possible. That's an undeniable fact, even if it were just 1 person, it would already be true. However, they would also heavily reprioritize what's really important to them too, the result of which would exclude most of the downloaded products in most cases.

A few problems I feel Devs face in this, one of which I think is the splintered approach in regards to security. One Dev choosing one form of security (or lack thereor), is dependent on the popularity factor, whether or not enough people feel negatively affected by not being able to have this library (out of the downloading population). People who are not influenced by the popularity factor are most likely folks that will or won't buy a library regardless of whether it is downloadable illegally and judge it mostly on their own needs/tastes (a more professional approach imo). This means if the popularity for a serious Dev is moderate, and not joined with huge hype, having security may negatively affect your sales. This may be fixable by having a uniform effective and service-oriented form of a security, tho I'm sure many here would most probably hate that idea. 

Then there is a word of mouth testimonial form of marketing by having illegal downloads available. Person A downloads, shows Person B of this radical awesome new thing he has, who ends up showing another, and all three of them are now discussing about it online and somewhere along the lines more sales are turned by increasing the products exposure whereas both might not even bothered to have buy it as they are merely hobbyists who just like to mess around. This again, is that Hype factor that plays into it and only certain Devs are knowingly or unkowingly exploiting this. Making it work for one Dev and not for another.

I don't really have a point to all of this, especially as a non-dev, just sharing how I look at this topic being a hugely complicated topic.


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## tcollins (Aug 19, 2014)

soniccouture @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> tcollins @ Sat Aug 16 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that the vast majority of piraters would not buy anyway, but I am convinced that a certain percentage would. It is my experience that when a product suddenly explodes into pirate sites the sales fall. A lot. As the download links are disabled the sales slowly rise. Perhaps other devs have different experiences?
> ...



James-

Life is too short to lose sleep over piracy, I agree, but there was a question asked about what small companies can do, so I posted my approach. You sell protected libraries, but many smaller companies either cannot afford that approach, or want to keep their libraries more affordable.

We are on the same side, you and I. We just use different methods to protect our work and our customer's interests. o-[][]-o


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## Mystic (Aug 19, 2014)

marclawsonmusic @ Sat Aug 16 said:


> Are you an attorney?


It's called basic common sense. It's illegal to create and distribute viruses (in the US) with malicious intent; even if that intent is to prevent piracy of their program. You can read more about it in the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act if you want to as it covers a very broad spectrum of laws. Here's another kicker: I don't know how this would stand in court but if a company uploaded a copy of their program willingly, I highly doubt they would be able to file suit against anyone who downloaded it because they were willingly distributing it themselves.

That being said, there are a couple reasons that this wouldn't work anyway. It wouldn't be long till the virus was noticed by downloaders and either the torrent is reported to the tracker and taken down or people simply stop downloading it once word gets out. People are a little more careful these days and private trackers are trying to keep up their reputation by keeping the fake and virus filled versions out.


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## Mystic (Aug 19, 2014)

I'm also going to add my .02 on this. I know it's a controversial topic, but I'm a firm believer that piracy is actually a very good thing. This needs some explanation though to fully understand what I mean.

A lot of people out there, especially amateurs who do this for fun with no intent to make money, who have no money, who aren't to the point where they are making money from music or who want to be able to test a program without limitations are the ones who do the most in the way of piracy. Now the first listed will likely be the one who never purchases the program anyway so in my eyes, they are irrelevant in the equation. The other three though; they are the ones that are important.

As people become more involved in music production, you'll find that the majority of them want to become legit customers because of the following reasons:

1: They want to support a company they like.
2: They want to be able to not have to worry about what malicious content is in the files they download.
3: They want to be able to keep their product updated.
4: They want to be seen as more legitimate in the eyes of their peers.
5: They want access to customer service and support if there are problems or questions.

This is something Adobe saw and instead of focusing on stopping pirates, they focused on turning pirates into legitimate customers and you know what? It worked. Many people who once pirated the software eventually became buyers because they saw the benefits to buying programs like Photoshop that they were using every day.

Adding heavy DRM does two very bad things: it punishes and pisses off legitimate customers because there can be a lot of issues with it. Online authentication servers can go down preventing someone from working, you can end up with "too many installs" and the program will disable itself even if the only thing the person did was buy a new hard drive. Plus, people are getting irritated at the mass amounts of dongles they require for different programs. On the other hand, people who download pirated versions have no DRM to worry about. If you want to look at failed DRM, look no further than Electronic Arts to learn what not to do.

Am I advocating piracy? Not at all. However, I feel it does much more good for companies than they would ever be willing to admit. Makes me wonder how many people here became legitimate customers after pirating a program themselves.


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## JohnG (Aug 19, 2014)

Sorry, but that is total BS when it comes to music libraries. It destroyed Giga and plenty of other businesses.

Practically everyone needs document software. By contrast, hardly anyone (as a percentage of the general population) needs a 200 GB strings library. A thousand pirated copies does real damage to the potential sales; ten thousand would be a meaningful chunk of the entire market. 

Ten thousand copies of Adobe Reader? When hundreds of millions of computers need it? Nothing, compared with the potential market.


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## Mystic (Aug 19, 2014)

And yet somehow companies like Cakewalk and Propellerhead have managed to last as long as they have. East West managed to survived long enough to move to Play as well.

I was also talking more along the lines of Photoshop, Audition or Premiere. Not Reader. Last time I checked, Reader was a free program.


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## JohnG (Aug 19, 2014)

Your analogy doesn't apply to music software, created by boutiques for a few, in contrast with software for hundreds of millions. It's a completely different market.

East West specifically developed PLAY in part because it is very hard to crack. As far as I know, it has not been cracked successfully. Just because a few companies survived the "Giga-share" world of the late 1990s and early 2000s doesn't mean there was no damage.

Plenty of once-popular music software titles and companies have gone out of business because of piracy. If you want to make a contention that somehow piracy actually helps music software (not Adobe, not Microsoft), I would humbly suggest that you pull together some facts or experience to back it up. Microsoft, like many large companies, goes to considerable lengths to prevent thieves stealing their software.

I don't know anyone who is a music library software developer who thinks it's just fine to have piracy or that there is some kind of symbiotic relationship between them and pirates. Do you have any experience in the music software industry to back up these claims, other than as an armchair pundit? Are you a developer? A business and marketing expert? A software distribution professional?

If not, I suggest we give more weight to people like Mike Greene or The Unfinished who actually release libraries. As I understand it, they are not fans of torrent sites or those who use them.

Extenuating or acting as an apologist for theft is immoral, in my view. Please consider carefully the appropriateness and legal issues inherent in what you are saying.


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## gbar (Aug 19, 2014)

Mystic @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> I'm also going to add my .02 on this. I know it's a controversial topic, but I'm a firm believer that piracy is actually a very good thing. .




Oh boy. I didn't get past this line to read the long-winded TL;DR explanation for underhanded, self-entitled, I want something for nothing behavior that ultimately reveals poor integrity.

What helps industries develop is healthy competition, and that's good for consumers too.

Stealing doesn't drive innovation (unless you count it driving anti-theft technology). But if that's how folks sleep at night while embracing their personal narcissism, I get that. And I put it up there with "How cheating on my wife improved my marriage" and other schlock rationalizations people employ to justify bad behavior they wouldn't go around advertising to their friends, family and coworkers and neighbors.


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## toddbigelow (Aug 19, 2014)

Some perspective regarding those Mystic is referring to, who compose as a hobby...I can't even call myself an amateur as I have no intention of making money doing what I do. I simply want my music to sound as good as it can, so I purchase the best VIs I can. While I don't agree with Mystic, I understand the train of thought. And I think there are probably successful ideas that employ a similar attitude towards "conversion" but that don't sacrifice revenue as much or promote unethical/illegal behavior. 

For example, Propellerhead (which I purchased and use) offers trials of their rack extensions. This means that there is no harm in falling for the marketing hype (and they're pretty good at it but usually have the product to back it up). You try it out and if you realize the marketing hype is just hype or that it's just not for you, you don't buy it. Izotope (which I purchased and use) does something similar. I'm not aware of that functionality in Kontakt (which I purchased and use), but it seems a full function library with only a partial instrument range or polyphony would allow a controlled trial.

Here's where the amateur comes in. When I go out on a limb and spend money that has no logical justification, and then find out the patch I need is awful (de-tuned "solo" patches that finally arrive at one pitch), or that the developer made some hasty assumptions (critical midi functions hardwired to a note I don't have on my 61 key keyboard), or the tool just doesn't work as advertised (reverb knob on the GUI doesn't actually connect to the convolution algorithm under the hood), or plenty of other frustrating surprises I encounter routinely, I have a really hard time justifying a replacement, or a new keyboard, or more time debugging the issue. Now, a pro may be able to find a workaround after some time and effort or a new replacement, but I simply can't do that with my limited play time. I'm not saying developers have to cater to everyone because I'm clearly in the minority, but I'm saying if they are concerned about the casual user being tempted to torrent, they could start by incentivizing loyalty with an awesome product. That is within their control. Amateurs and hobby composers won't last long with all-hype products before they realize the risk has outweighed the reward. 

I have a list of devs I would risk another purchase with, and ones I wouldn't. For me that means I abstain, but for others it may mean they move to a less ethical model to avoid risk. In no way am I condoning piracy at all, or putting blame on the developers. Just a thought about how they should control what they can control, and make purchases less risky. In no other business I'm aware of is it acceptable for a person to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a product that ends up unused, only to have them say "live and learn" and move onto a new product. I'm shocked at how often I read similar words, including on this site. Composers have apparently just accepted the idea that a percentage of our purchases will be regretted. As an outsider who has just come into this community, it's a bit baffling to be honest. Developers can and should try to minimize buyer's remorse, and I think there are plenty that do. This would be a small step towards decreasing piracy, and is of course separate from other anti-piracy efforts aimed at those who are past loyalty, about which I have no good input unfortunately. 

Since you can't improve what you don't measure, it would be good (albeit difficult) to understand the demographics of piracy in this industry as I think certain anti-piracy restraints may work for some demographics and not for others. Certainly at least a case study is possible on some product like Reaper, which has a Pro and Home version, and does not enforce the purchase but leaves it up to the integrity of the consumer. Perhaps this sort of data is already contained somewhere in this gigantic thread. 

Completely agree with gbar, competition is vital and I'd rather devs spent their R&D money on product innovation and not IP protection. Just a (long-winded) thought.


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## marclawsonmusic (Aug 19, 2014)

toddbigelow @ Tue Aug 19 said:


> *Here's where the amateur comes in*. *When I go out on a limb and spend money* that has no logical justification, and then find out the patch I need is awful (de-tuned "solo" patches that finally arrive at one pitch), or that the developer made some hasty assumptions (critical midi functions hardwired to a note I don't have on my 61 key keyboard), or the tool just doesn't work as advertised (reverb knob on the GUI doesn't actually connect to the convolution algorithm under the hood), or plenty of other frustrating surprises I encounter routinely, I have a really hard time justifying a replacement, or a new keyboard, or more time debugging the issue. Now, a pro may be able to find a workaround after some time and effort or a new replacement, but I simply can't do that with my limited play time. I'm not saying developers have to cater to everyone because *I'm clearly in the minority*, but I'm saying if they are concerned about the casual user being tempted to torrent, they could start by incentivizing loyalty with an awesome product. That is within their control. Amateurs and hobby composers won't last long with all-hype products before they realize the risk has outweighed the reward.


I'm not sure this is the right perspective on the economics of this industry...

The amateurs - guys like me (you?) with a day job - have more *disposable income* and _less _to lose if something doesn't work right. In fact, I would go so far as to say that amateurs and hobbyists probably put _more _money into the music software industry than the pros. There is less risk for us, so we are more inclined to just throw stuff on a credit card when we want the latest and greatest.

Most of the pros I know are working guys who really can't afford a bad purchase. They think long and hard before dropping hard-earned cash on a new piece of kit, and if it doesn't work, they are much more screwed than me. I can just rant on a forum and go back to my day job, while the pro is stuck with a boat-anchor / door-stop / coaster and a much lighter wallet.

(PS - I don't have any facts to back this up other than anecdotal chatter with friends who are sales people in the music industry - they tell me their biggest clients are hobbyists... and this rings true to me.)

As far as the topic goes... There really is no excuse for piracy. I have caught my teenagers torrenting games before and I really busted their balls because there is no reason they can't just go out and mow the lawn a couple times for the $40 they need for the latest game. Same for any of us... it's just the entry fee is $299 instead of $40.

So, I say just man up, pay the coin and get on with it.


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## toddbigelow (Aug 19, 2014)

Thanks Marc, all I have is anecdotal as well, and lots of assumptions, so I'm glad to hear your perspective. Yes, I have a day job and disposable income so I suppose I do have less to lose. It's just that when something inhibits my workflow or creativity, or when there's a huge gap between my perception of the product and the actual product, I'm not equipped to deal with it well so the purchase approaches a bust pretty quickly for me. It's my problem of course, but my point was that this may affect casual users perception of risk when contemplating a particular purchase, and if that casual user does not share our view on the ethics of torrenting, that perception of risk might tempt them to find a way to avoid the risk. 

If it's true what you say about hobbyists being the biggest clients, I still think there should be a lot of incentive for the developer to develop products in a way that promotes successful usage, and not mixed reviews that have to be overshadowed by shiny marketing. Again, I'm very curious to know the the demographics of piracy. I'd like to think those with skin in the game have more respect for the industry than the casual user but I guess that might be another bad assumption??? Your points are quite logical with regard to the economics of those actually in the industry. Although, I've read plenty of comments by pros buying up duplicate instruments each time a new one is released, which means a bad purchase may be brushed off more easily(?). Anyway, I agree, there is no justification for piracy.


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## Guy Rowland (Aug 20, 2014)

JohnG @ Wed Aug 20 said:


> Sorry, but that is total BS when it comes to music libraries. It destroyed Giga and plenty of other businesses.



So interested in your take, John - why does the Native Instruments "to hell with piracy" model work, and it didn't for Giga? Was it definitely piracy that did for them?


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## Luca Capozzi (Aug 20, 2014)

Other .02.. what is really harmful in piracy is when a new product get pirated just few hours/days after it has been released. For a developer, the first release weeks are very important to the ROI and to understand if the new product is successful or not. This process is vital for the future choices of a company and you cannot use the various pirated download counts as a metric, because it's unreliable.


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## kb123 (Aug 20, 2014)

Some points I think worth bringing up.

1. Niche product developers have a completely different business model to the likes of NI. Its not appropriate to compare them.

2. Even amongst the niche developers on vi-control, there is a huge difference between those recording a single instrument to hiring a complete orchestra in a world class hall. Again, not appropriate to lump them all together as feeling the same effect from piracy.

3. Acceptance of piracy as part of the business also brings with it legitimacy, which most certainly shouldn't be encouraged. Seems to me perceptions seem somewhat skewed.

I do agree that undue focus on preventing piracy can be extremely unhealthy and ultimately counter productive. But its not a simple subject, and it affects everyone differently, which is why you will never get agreement on solutions on the subject either


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## RasmusFors (Aug 20, 2014)

I think pirating has created a subculture of people who simply won't pay for a product, even if it's cheep. Like Paul pointed out, pirates are pirating their LABS series (which may I add is one of the most despicable things I've heard. It's charity for fucks sake)
The only reason you would pirate a library that's only£2 is because you have some kind of warped mind that believes that you deserve everything for free, no matter of the products cost 

How can you reach out to that kind of person and make them buy stuff legitimate?
I don't see pirates as potential customers, more like rats who gather around to get in on the action


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## gsilbers (Aug 20, 2014)

two interesting points on this thread:

1) that piracy will still happen but if its a good product poeple will still buy it. 

i do agree somewhat. but i still believe that some sort of protection still works. and the higher the level of complexity the less normal folks will try to break it. 

giga files were just copying over to a dvd or hard drive. EVERYONE had it. even my ex boss who is a famous record producer, who would get free hard drives with stuff like this and he be like.. sure...whatever. but if if he saw a waves plugin he liked , a software instrument he needed for a project he bought it, he wouldnt go through hacking loops to try and get them. i believe this is the same for the everyday joe musician who understands the value of others' work but at the same time, hey! if its free and just copy paste a serial or nothing to do then.. "maybe"

the challenge and reponse thing for NI is a joke. those get hack the second they come out. same as the preivous waves ilok, someone got pissed at waves and wrotoe a template hack scirpt to open any of those. then there is security of some developers that is custom and to break those tthose need some weird patching and follow complex instructions. so a kid or musicians who is not too much into that then theyll pass and got for the challenge and reponse. the everyday joe who doesnt know about hacks will just buy it or wait for a sale. 

my point is that products like that have "hurdles" to jump for proteciton. if 9v and giga decided not to add any protection cause they think fellow humans will not steal is just plain stupid, should of just checked one of the bibles out there or something. 


2) that products priced at lower prices will have a better chance of selling and not get stolen. 

its an interesting point which brings the current situaton with amazon and a big book publisher who doesnt think amazon should be selling books below $14 a book saying that they will have better sales. 

books and cd used to cost somethign to make. not anymore. there is no more raw materials. now , same os software/libraries its just a copy andd having to payback the upfront costs of R&D, marketing, production etc. 

yet, i still feel that apple just destroeyd how poeple percieve music to be just a one dollar a song product and anyting else is just someone trying to ripp you off. 
those big companies have other things to sell, they get comision on any sale. so apple wants to sell their premium hardware of $4000 for you to use you $200 logic software and listen to $1 songs. they leveraged those numbers niceley. but the $1 song wont pay for crap to the musican. 

withthe above said, i think the devil is in the details, does amazon and apple have a point of about the way they set teir prices and chances of getting more sales this way , or are they just deluting sales since the product they sell are just a means to an end and therefore forcing content provider to sell at lower prices as well?


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## Mystic (Aug 20, 2014)

Piracy isn't going away anytime soon which is one of the main reasons I believe that companies need to learn how to market to these people. I'm not saying they should throw their own products on torrent sites or support the torrent community, but if they spend more time trying to convert people who download their product to customers rather than being hostile towards them, they will get a lot further. Hostility breeds spite and defiance. All it takes is pissing the wrong person off for them to convince a whole group of people to say "screw those guys". That's money out the door for possible future sales. Plus, the more a company spends on DRM, the less money they have to put into the product itself and thus, the paying customers get the butt end of the deal because of piracy. Plus, the more advanced the DRM, the more that some people want to attempt to crack it because they see it as a challenge. Does that mean I think they should drop all DRM? Again, not at all. I just believe that they need to either spend less money trying to figure out how to prevent people from pirating it or use an option that the majority use such as iLok. Now granted, I have no idea what iLoks agreement is like or how much they require for their service, but I think if it was that big of a percentage that a company actually had to spend more than 1 day considering it, then they too need to do some thinking about the way they do business as they would likely grab a load of new clients if the price was acceptable for smaller companies. 

The second, I don't know that I agree with. People still pirate things at a lower price point. I do think they are more likely to be bought in the future but it all depends on the many variables; mainly, is it worth the money they are asking for it both in quality and service (such as updates). When a person pirates something and they get to the point of deciding whether or not to buy the actual product, the first thing they ask themselves is "is this product really worth me paying for?" The following questions are "is it a quality piece of software?" and "do they update it?". A yes answer to both of those will be more likely to turn into a customer of that product. Of course, there are many other aspects to this but that is a start, I suppose.

As I said, I do not condone piracy in any form, I simply accept that it exists and there is no way to really stop it and the best way to battle it is to find ways to convince them that they are better off spending money on the product. Not an easy task but also not impossible. I've managed to convert quite a few people to become legit customers of various products.


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## parquix (Mar 3, 2015)

How about a "pay what you like" kind of a donation system? Some recording artist seems to go well with this emotional selling technique. I don't know if it will work with sample library business. 

Or some company offer their product/ service for free at first, then start charging money after the user get addicted to the products.

Any thoughts?


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## Daryl (Mar 3, 2015)

parquix @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> How about a "pay what you like" kind of a donation system? Some recording artist seems to go well with this emotional selling technique. I don't know if it will work with sample library business.
> 
> Or some company offer their product/ service for free at first, then start charging money after the user get addicted to the products.
> 
> Any thoughts?


 I think that this is a non starter. Even when people have to pay, they still complain that it is too much money. Just look round this forum. When you have products that cost over £100K to make, you are never even going to cover costs by asking for donations.

D


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## Chriss Ons (Mar 3, 2015)

parquix @ Tue 03 Mar said:


> How about a "pay what you like" kind of a donation system? Some recording artist seems to go well with this emotional selling technique. I don't know if it will work with sample library business.
> 
> Or some company offer their product/ service for free at first, then start charging money after the user get addicted to the products.
> 
> Any thoughts?



I believe that it is neither a solution for piracy, nor a good strategy for running a viable business. People can be generous, yes, I witnessed that first hand recently, but those are the ones who think it's normal to pay for what they use, to begin with. What's needed first and foremost is a change in mindset among those who continue to use warez - and who will come up with all sorts of lame excuses for doing so. They're not going to pay a small price for a library when they can get it for nothing on some torrent site if that's what they usually do, anyway. Ignorance is one thing - a lot of people mistakingly think that "developers don't really need their business, anyway"... but most of all it's the widely accepted idea that "it's not really theft" and a false sense of ENTITLEMENT, which are really at the core of this problem... and no creative business model is going to solve that, IMHO.

(Darn, I used the E-word. That probably woke up Jay Asher... sorry, Jay!)


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## pavolbrezina (Mar 3, 2015)

Easiest way is to stop using Kontakt and develop own sampler, then protect it with Syncrosoft or Ilok2. Done.


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## mc_deli (Mar 3, 2015)

A couple of pages ago the price of Logic was used to suggest that a lot of libraries are over-priced.

I would like to point out that Logic is sold by a company with 180bn in the bank. It is sold as a loss leader by the richest company in history. The company would like to own as much of the means of production of music as possible, in addition to the means of consumption.

On a different tack, who are the real winners with piracy? I think it is the ad networks and search engines.


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## marclawsonmusic (Mar 3, 2015)

pavolbrezina @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> Easiest way is to stop using Kontakt and develop own sampler, then protect it with Syncrosoft or Ilok2. Done.


Invest tens or hundreds of thousands more to re-invent the wheel and build your own sampler? I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like a good business model to me.


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## pavolbrezina (Mar 3, 2015)

marclawsonmusic @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> pavolbrezina @ Tue Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Easiest way is to stop using Kontakt and develop own sampler, then protect it with Syncrosoft or Ilok2. Done.
> ...



VSL understood it, EastWest understood it and I think every serious developer soon or later will understand it. :D


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## Dietz (Mar 4, 2015)

mc_deli @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> [...]
> 
> On a different tack, who are the real winners with piracy? I think it is the ad networks and search engines.



Add ISPs and certain hardware manufacturers, and you're spot-on.


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 4, 2015)

mc_deli @ Tue Mar 03 said:


> A couple of pages ago the price of Logic was used to suggest that a lot of libraries are over-priced.
> 
> I would like to point out that Logic is sold by a company with 180bn in the bank. It is sold as a loss leader by the richest company in history. The company would like to own as much of the means of production of music as possible, in addition to the means of consumption.
> 
> On a different tack, who are the real winners with piracy? I think it is the ad networks and search engines.



Logic is a unique case. Apple pretty much sells its pro apps now as "loss leaders" so that people will buy Macs.


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## gsilbers (Mar 4, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> mc_deli @ Tue Mar 03 said:
> 
> 
> > A couple of pages ago the price of Logic was used to suggest that a lot of libraries are over-priced.
> ...



.... and motion, imovie, and updates, and other peoples music for cheap, other owners TV shows and movies for cheap and everything else that will make their mac/iphone hardware valuable but at the same time not care about owner's copyright or paying a fair value for it. And even less about if software gets cracked. as long as we keep buying their hardware products. 

and THAT is the main problem WITH ALL THIS THREAD!!!!!!! 

Congress just needs to pass a law that would get those tech companies liable for cracked software and that's it. then youtube will check their videos, ISP would work with OS and hardware developers to stop piracy and so on. THEN , piracy would stop.

I don't know why we keep thinking so small!


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## Zardoz (Mar 4, 2015)

gsilbers @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> .... and motion, imovie, and updates, and other peoples music for cheap, other owners TV shows and movies for cheap and everything else that will make their mac/iphone hardware valuable but at the same time not care about owner's copyright or paying a fair value for it. And even less about if software gets cracked. as long as we keep buying their hardware products.
> 
> and THAT is the main problem WITH ALL THIS THREAD!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



So you want Congress, who seem to barely understand the way the telegraph works much less the internet, to pass more draconian laws to protect copyright? No thanks, I don't want to have to plug in an iLok to listen to music on my iPhone. Locks are for honest people; criminals are just as happy to kick your door in. Criminals and thieves will find a way to get what they want for free no matter how many locks you put on the door, and the harder you make it for paying customers to get what they want the more likely it is they will throw up their hands and give up. A few may even decide to just kick down the door too. 

Music companies can't seem to accept that the world has changed and we aren't ever going back to the halcyon days of low-hanging fruit like $20 CDs. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. The day the first headline was published about Napster, the smart music industry move would have been to embrace them, buy them, and start converting it to a paid business model. Instead the music industry spent a decade in court shaking its fist and accomplishing little. Meanwhile, the world moved on. iTunes proved that if you give people an easy way to buy music digitally they will pay for it - they are now the #1 music retailer in the world. Spotify et al provide a way for the large part of the populace who never bought much music anyway to have a legal commercial-free alternative to radio. 

I realize that vi libraries have different investment and cost considerations than an album, but it has to say something that the majority of new publishers are choosing Kontakt over the other platforms and are choosing not to use physical keys. Sure, there will be pirates who will take advantage of that and steal the libraries, but would they have ever purchased them anyway? Meanwhile, it really greases the purchasing wheels to know that I can buy a library and be playing it in minutes rather than waiting for days to get a key in the mail. And know that I don't have to worry about losing the key or it failing and having to get it replaced. I know I've made many a Kontakt impulse purchase for exactly those reasons.


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## kitekrazy (Mar 7, 2015)

Zardoz @ Wed Mar 04 said:


> gsilbers @ Wed Mar 04 said:
> 
> 
> > .... and motion, imovie, and updates, and other peoples music for cheap, other owners TV shows and movies for cheap and everything else that will make their mac/iphone hardware valuable but at the same time not care about owner's copyright or paying a fair value for it. And even less about if software gets cracked. as long as we keep buying their hardware products.
> ...



Wow! You need to educate yourself. Most cracking and hacking comes from poorer countries. Also Russia and China. The only thing I want Congress to pass is pass out and stop wasting oxygen. When government gets involved things get worse for the innocent.


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## Zardoz (Mar 8, 2015)

kitekrazy @ Sat Mar 07 said:


> Wow! You need to educate yourself. Most cracking and hacking comes from poorer countries. Also Russia and China. The only thing I want Congress to pass is pass out and stop wasting oxygen. When government gets involved things get worse for the innocent.



I'm not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing here? What does the fact that so much piracy happens in the third world have to do with anything? If anything I would think that bolsters the argument that enacting new laws and complex hardware restrictions is only going to frustrate regular paying users while doing nothing to stop criminal syndicates in other countries who are pirating and hacking on an industrial scale.

Edit: Just realized you may have been replying to the person above me. Duh me.


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## TonalDynamics (Nov 24, 2021)

noiseboyuk said:


> A spin off of Nine Volt Audio's thread, describing their sad experiences of the piracy of their libraries. It occurred to me that it is more productive to debate what we as a community can actually do about this problem, rather than just endlessly bemoaning the state of young people today / arguing about how to calculate the loss involved (ie is every illegal download a lost sale). Piracy is clearly hugely financially detrimental to developers, regardless of these debates, and that's a given in this thread. Please debate those issues elsewhere - this should be a thread to search for practical, workable solutions. I'm sure many of us here would like to help in some way, if it would genuinely make a difference.
> 
> In the 9VA thread, 4 different ideas were proposed. There may well be more, but it's a start. Here's a brief summary:
> 
> ...


I just kind of randomly popped in to say this, but I think it's worth mentioning that the pro audio devs of all genres have been no less impacted by piracy (as a direct result of the digital revolution) than virtually anyone else in the music business over the last fifteen years.

Look how Lars Ulrich bitched and whined about Napster on live television constantly.

Compare that to how the young, hopeful and ballsy musician approaches the scene today - and I repeat _ballsy, _because that's exactly what he or she has to be to try to 'make it' in the business today, fully_ expecting_ his music to be stolen, copied and even _profited_ from by others posting their work on their own channels.

I conceded to myself over a decade ago as a musician that my workload would be increased proportional to the degree of lost revenue I experienced, and in a certain abstract sense that has remained true for most of my professional career.

So as tough a spot as it might be to be put in for a developer, as a musician and producer I can't help but feel a 'welcome to my world' vibe here.

But take heart friends, because as always... the strong survive.

Our peculiar herd is one that has been culled more than most industries will ever know...but the strong, the cunning, and the tenacious carry on.

Here's to finding your own 'strength', in your own way. Pull tight, push hard, keep making (good) connections, and don't look back.

And above all, if the 'love' of music isn't at the center of your reason for being in the business, then you're doing it wrong 

Happy Thanksgiving!


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## doctoremmet (Nov 24, 2021)

So you revive a 6 year old thread… and mention Napster…

Are you a time traveler?


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## TonalDynamics (Nov 25, 2021)

doctoremmet said:


> So you revive a 6 year old thread… and mention Napster…
> 
> Are you a time traveler?


LOL, that's my bad actually, I thought I had clicked on 'What's New' and was still on another browser tab set to sort by 'replies' instead... totally missed the last reply date.

Apologies for the accidental necro, guys 😅


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