# The dreaded temp music



## RiffWraith (Feb 26, 2011)

*FOLLOW THE TEMP*

It can be tough - sure. Been there. "This works really well - how am I going to beat this?"

And then there is, "This doesn't work - what the hell was the director thinking???"

If something really doesn't work AFAYAC, and you have a good relationship with the director, and have worked with him/her before, you can sit down and say, "listen, I see where you are coming from here, but if you don't mind, I'd like to try something else."

But otherwise, you _do need _to adhere to the temp. What you can't do, is do your completely own thing. The temp is the director's vision of what he thinks the music should sound like - who are you to say otherwise? It's his film - not yours. The director (in theory) spent a lot of time and effort finding music that he thinks works, and would like to hear. He is saying to you, "I want something like this". And therefore he expects to hear music at least in the neighborhood of the temp he gave you, and here you are, writing something completely different and not adhering to the temp. Not good. Unless, of course, the director tells you he just put the music there for the sake of having something, and you can write whatever you see fit. That is a composer's dream job - but it happens very rarely.

I used to work in the film industry. No names, but I have seen A-list composers get fired for not following the temp.

"Yeah, the music is good, and it does work, but you didn't follow the temp. Sorry, we are going to have to hire another composer."

*FOLLOW THE TEMP*


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 26, 2011)

Just a HUGE word of warning on the temp - assume nothing. At the start of the project, gently try and find out what deal is. In my kids TV land, the temps are often rubbish and sometimes not even there at all - there simply isn't the time in the edit to do one at all sometimes. Laying a temp takes time, on kids TV budgets there just isn't any time.

Also find out - if you can - who holds the power. In TV it's usually the producer, not the director who does the temp. There's a good chance the producer isn't even listening to the temp - in the edit he / she might only be interested in the cuts (again, more true in lower budget TV I think).

Chances are if you're working on a film, even a microbudget, then the temp IS important. Certainly don't assume it isn't, but its a conversation that needs to be had. You might find one or two cues really work for them, while others are merely placeholders. The basic question "how closely do you want me to follow the temp?" surely needs to be asked.

Some temps are carefully, lovingly crafted (I saw one film last year I know was very heavily temped... and the final result sounded exactly like a temp score). The director and producer may have worked very hard on it and be passionate about every beat. If so - bad luck. On the other extreme, I literally get told sometimes "for God's sake don't listen to the temp!".


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## David Story (Feb 26, 2011)

Sound advice above.

A true story worth repeating:

A-list director hires A-list composer and says: "You don't have to follow the temp".
Composer says "you did a wonderful job with the temp" and follows it.
The director now says he wishes that composer didn't follow the temp. No insight that it was his decision to make a temp and show it to the composer.

The composer knew it was his job to follow the temp. And says that he prefers when they give him a film without music. 

If you've worked with the producer and director before, you might get away with ignoring the temp.


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## José Herring (Feb 26, 2011)

tls @ Sat Feb 26 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> What's your thoughts on temp music?
> 
> ...



Beat the temp. Use it as a guide and find a way to do it better.


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## poseur (Feb 26, 2011)

when a temp is terrible, but the director loves it:
i'm screwed.
when a temp is great, and everyone loves it, as if it were score:
rough job.
when a temp works incredibly well, and i love it.
errrrrmmmm..... another rough job, but do-able.
when they temp your teen$y-ween$y-budgeted film w/score from a 6-figure score,
_because_ it sounds deep & organic?
ergh.

when, in any case, it's your own music in the temp?
_¡heeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllppppp!_
argh.
ugh.

it's a goddamned crazy business, this one is:
i hate temps, _especially_ irresponsible temps..... 
unless the director cannot explain his own feelings about the film,
and the temp can be presumed to be doing that for him or her..... somehow.

dt


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## José Herring (Feb 26, 2011)

poseur @ Sat Feb 26 said:


> when they temp your teen$y-ween$y-budgeted film w/score from a 6-figure score,
> _because_ it sounds deep & organic?
> ergh.
> 
> ...



Between these two I can't think of which I hate more. But upon further inspection, I hate more when they have unrealistic expectations because of poor temp decisions and nothing is more delusional then temping a film with major motion pictures scores for their rather modestly budgeted indie film.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 26, 2011)

Sometimes it can force your imagination to work overtime. In my brief experience in this field so far, once for a film we also had the mandate to write the trailer and in the temp was the cliché Carmina Burana, now how are you going to equal that on samples? Totally ridiculous! We spent days pulling our hair about this, until I finally got an idea and thought it might just work. Since I'm a pretty good pianist I imagined the coda of a Rachmaninov Concerto in a much agitated style, mixed with sampled epic choir and all the other stuff. So I wrote something in that style and it worked beautifully, and the directors were highly impressed. Too bad I was paid peanuts though. :(


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## tls (Feb 27, 2011)

Some good opinions here, though I sense conflicting views.

One concern for sure is to meet director's/producer's requirements. Clearly, they can use whatever music they'd like for the temp music, and if they have got used to it, they may not be satisfied when listening to the real thing.

Then again, the temp music is there for a reason, though I don't like it.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 27, 2011)

tls @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Some good opinions here, though I sense conflicting views.
> 
> One concern for sure is to meet director's/producer's requirements. Clearly, they can use whatever music they'd like for the temp music, and if they have got used to it, they may not be satisfied when listening to the real thing.
> 
> Then again, the temp music is there for a reason, though I don't like it.



Actually I'm not sure these views are so conflicting, they just represent our different experiences. And that's the point really - experiences are wildly variable!

Just one more observation.... having no temp music at all (as I often have) is mostly a good thing, but it has its own problems. If you are stabbing in the dark and don't even have any idea for spotting, its easy to waste huge amount of time and effort going in a totally different direction to what the producer / director wants. Again, of course communication is key here.


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## cc64 (Feb 27, 2011)

poseur @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> when, in any case, it's your own music in the temp?
> _¡heeeeeeeeeeeeeelllllllllppppp!_
> argh.
> ugh.
> ...



Yeah! I've actually had to deal with a few temp cues that where already 3rd generation of music i had done!

So if my music ever sounds a bit inbred to any of you... 

Claude


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## Ashermusic (Feb 27, 2011)

Dear composers:

It is not YOUR film, it is THEIR film. You are (95% of the time) brought in for the last few months to a project they may have spent years getting green lighted and making.

Listen to the temp and give them your honest opinion about the temp because you are the expert. If you like it, do your best to create something similar but still you. If you do not like it, do your best to create something similar because it is THEIR film.

If however, you dislike it to a degree that you feel you absolutely cannot do so, then tell them it is best they find someone else who shares their vision more. 

There was one time when I should have done this but did not and in the end, after micro-managing every cue and saying they liked the end result, they replaced the score.


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## poseur (Feb 27, 2011)

tls @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Some good opinions here, though I sense conflicting views.
> 
> One concern for sure is to meet director's/producer's requirements. Clearly, they can use whatever music they'd like for the temp music, and if they have got used to it, they may not be satisfied when listening to the real thing.
> 
> Then again, the temp music is there for a reason, though I don't like it.



please don't misunderstand the gist of my own post:
i wasn't really talking about whether i _like_ the temp or not,
i was speaking as a film-composer:
i'm more concerned with what i believe _works_ for the story-line,
for the characters, for the visual presentation,
for the perspective of the film & how thatall is gonna be communicated 
via the score's overarching _shape_,
across & over of the film's 90-120minute arc & flow.

unfortunately, ime?
sometimes the "reasons" for which the temp-score is present may not justify using it
as the musical "model" for your own writing.....
moreso than ever before, afaict.

therefore, some judicious & careful thought is required, there:
i need my own concept,
not one simply based upon my "reactions" to what i've heard in the temp,
unless i'm on that most unusual of films,
where the director is capable of communicating clearly,
w/the film's dramato-musical integrity as a "given" goal.

if, for some reason,
i'm working on a film that is 100% rooted-in & comprised _only_ 
of obvious structural & contextually-limited, emotional/dramatic/comedic etc tropes & clichés, well.....
that's another story, re: the temp:
what lives in-the-box is probably gonna stay in-the-box, & no worries.

it seems to me, though, 
that to expect a unified, un-conflicting consensus on such things
seems to me to be more than a wee bit unrealistic.

personally, i'm only speaking for me, from my own experience & 
my current feelings in these regards..... & my current judgment of all that:
the ongoing flow of my experiences could always alter my perspective,
and i certainly expect others' mileages to vary.

still, no matter today's version of my opinions & feelings:
i'll weigh every single incoming film, and its temp, on its very own merits.


dt


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## tls (Feb 27, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> tls @ Sun Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Some good opinions here, though I sense conflicting views.
> ...



I agree.



Ashermusic @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Dear composers:
> 
> It is not YOUR film, it is THEIR film. You are (95% of the time) brought in for the last few months to a project they may have spent years getting green lighted and making.
> 
> ...



Yeah, this is very important. They pay for a product that will strengthen theirs. This reminds me that scoring is more about craft than art. Sad, I want the latter.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 27, 2011)

I find temp scores to often be clearer than anything the director tries to convey using words (unless they know how to speak 'music').


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## poseur (Feb 27, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Dear composers:
> 
> It is not YOUR film, it is THEIR film.



as it stands, jay, that seems a deep oversimplification,
and as a catchall catch-phrase might be somewhat misleading, imo:

yes: it's "their" film, but.....
if my name is in the head-credits & i am indeed
"the last creative *writer* on the project, 1 of only 2"
--- as a director/writer friend of mine says ---
then, it's also *"our"* film.

dt


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## poseur (Feb 27, 2011)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> I find temp scores to often be clearer than anything the director tries to convey using words (unless they know how to speak 'music').



i enjoy temps when the director can't communicate feelings well,
when the temp capably points the _*direction*_ 
but is not perfect.....
..... and is also in-the-range of being even remotely budgetarily possible.

these days, with all these "package deals" having become
the overwhelmingly negative (&, destructive-to-music) wave of the future?
well.....

it's too bad that film-production gotten so socially & budgetarily complex,
what with all its very strange stratifications & such, imo.....

dt


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## José Herring (Feb 27, 2011)

poseur @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Dear composers:
> ...



I agree with Mr. Posuer on this one. While technically it is "their" film, creatively if you don't think about it as your film as well then you'll never have the guts to offer up suggestions or never take the necessary responsibility in order to insure that you're doing the best that you can do. I was struggling on a film recently, then I started imagining that it was my film and that my music was a lead character in the film. It opened up a whole new level of creative freedom. I also think that most filmmakers want to make the composer a part of the team these days and if you have a good relationship and they appreciate the work that you do then, they usually go out of their way to extend you the courtesy of bringing you along as a significant creative voice in the film, rather than just a "work for hire".


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 27, 2011)

This is turning into a really interesting discussion. I think - hope? - that most interesting filmmakers don't want to be proscriptive about music, or any other craft for that matter. They don't want someone taking it in a random direction either. This is what collaboration is, and why so often people team up across multiple projects - they've established a creative relationship that works.

I think most good filmmakers WANT to be surprised, in the right way of course. They want actors who can make a part come alive and bring something unique to the text - but they don't on the other hand want some thespian with delusions of grandeur off on one. I guess it's the same with us.... hopefully we'll find film / programme makers with whom we click, where we have freedom to create something great and not proscriptive, but are always in ultimate service of their story and vision. That's the ideal, anyway, I guess.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 27, 2011)

poseur @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sun Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Dear composers:
> ...



Actually, that's not an oversimplification at all. In fact, that was put perfectly - _usually_. Read on.



poseur @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> if my name is in the head-credits & i am indeed"the last creative *writer* on the project, 1 of only 2"
> --- as a director/writer friend of mine says ---
> then, it's also *"our"* film.



"Our" film?. If you are JW and you are scoring the next Lucas or Speilberg film, or if you are HZ and you are scoring the next Batman film, you can look at it as "our film". But otherwise, it's not "we" or "our". That doesn't mean it's you against them, but you have to realize that you are an employee - not a partner.



josejherring @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> While technically it is "their" film, creatively if you don't think about it as your film as well then you'll never have the guts to offer up suggestions or never take the necessary responsibility in order to insure that you're doing the best that you can do.



That was pretty well put. You should definitely look at it as "this is my score", but understand that it is not your film.

Cheers.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 27, 2011)

Unless it's a director's first film, I have trouble thinking he will expect the same sonic results from the temp which is snippets here and there worth several $100,000.00 of recordings, as what he's offering to pay, which unless you're well established in the industry, will be a substantial less amount. However the feel and tempo is what he wants to not change, general rule.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 27, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Unless it's a director's first film, I have trouble thinking he will expect the same sonic results from the temp which is snippets here and there worth several $100,000.00 of recordings, as what he's offering to pay, which unless you're well established in the industry, will be a substantial less amount. However the feel and tempo is what he wants to not change, general rule.



True enough, but temp scores have huge drawbacks, even for directors. Putting in other scores gets you an instant $100k fantastic result for a scene. Trouble is that that piece of music usually won't go in the same direction that your scene does - it gets bigger just when yours takes an unexpected turn, for example. So temps are patchwork quilts, hacking all sorts of stuff together which can sound awful (of course this job can be done well or badly depending on time, talent and resources). IMHO a really talented composer with Symphobia could better most temp scores, cos the end result will fit picture better.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 27, 2011)

Bottom line, your role is to help the scene.


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## cc64 (Feb 27, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Bottom line, your role is to help the scene.



Yes this is true. But even more important and difficult and also, IMO, what differentiates the men from the boys, is to be able to think of the arc of the whole film while scoring each scene. As Poseur mentioned earlier on.

Claude


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## poseur (Feb 27, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Actually, that's not an oversimplification at all. In fact, that was put perfectly - _usually_. Read on.
> 
> "Our" film?. If you are JW and you are scoring the next Lucas or Speilberg film, or if you are HZ and you are scoring the next Batman film, you can look at it as "our film". But otherwise, it's not "we" or "our". That doesn't mean it's you against them, but you have to realize that you are an employee - not a partner.
> 
> ...



i read on..... and disagree,
even beyond what i'm reading as your social attitude towards me.
in fact?
i disagree, because my experience disagrees, as well as does my approach.


there are already way too many non-committal "composers" fulfilling the role of jobsworths,
on films, in television & etc.

but, uhhhh.....
..... about your "other" comment, the one that seemed so, so, so..... 
..... well, bitched-up & ready-to-rumble, for some reason:

no, i am not JW..... nor do i wanna be;
i never did want that, & i never will.
i certainly did not either imply or say that,
and do not even remotely equate myself with him,
nor with anyone else.
i'm a worker-bee..... albeit one who takes his job pretty seriously, most times.

me?
i'm some guy with some skills, a sound (or, 2) & a relatively developed point-of-view;
this is, imo, why i'm being hired:
why i might get invited into a film.
that i'm not JW or Hans does not, for me, detract from my own working experience (LOL!),
nor from enough folks' enjoyment of that work.

the director's quote that i offered was said to me with sincerity.
i took him seriously;
this director has repeated his belief in the importance of composers, many, many times,
since.

yes --- i'm an employee, of the production.
usually, my boss --- the director --- is _also_ an employee of the production.
is it not his/her film, as well?

regardless, while jay's quotable quote is partially true
--- as i've already said ---
it appeared to me to be potentially misleading,
most especially to those with fewer "hot-seat" experiences.

dt


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## José Herring (Feb 27, 2011)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Unless it's a director's first film, I have trouble thinking he will expect the same sonic results from the temp which is snippets here and there worth several $100,000.00 of recordings, as what he's offering to pay, which unless you're well established in the industry, will be a substantial less amount. However the feel and tempo is what he wants to not change, general rule.



The problem being in even experience directors there's the illusion that it can be done with computers and sample libraries. They don't understand generally. I've run into this problem so many times that it's almost lead me to quit doing scores. OR at least have given me pause about what kind of films to score next. What I find is that director or producer has temped with scores from films that were major blockbusters. He's done this early on to get investors to go oooooh, ahhhhh, what a great film with high production quality. All the while he's told them that "it's only a temp score, and when they get the real score it will be even more effective.". 

The poor composer being paid peanuts then says that he can't possibly do that. The composer is viewed as "coping out" or not trying as hard as he should because he's not getting paid well. So then you end up biting your lip and doing the best that you can. Hopefully you can get it in the ballpark. Often times with a bit of clever thinking you can get close. Sometimes you have to fight them and just say no you can't. At which time they fight back, then you settle on some kind of compromise. Hopefully that compromise is something that has merit on it's own.

But today there's just this overwhelming conception that computers and sample libraries are "good enough". I guess if you're not comparing it to the real thing then maybe that's true. But, the last film I did was temped with End of Days, The Ring 2 and with What Lies Beneath. I practically threw myself out the window. But seeing as I'm only on the second floor, it would only hurt really bad and not really end my suffering.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 27, 2011)

josejherring @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> the last film I did was temped with End of Days, The Ring 2 and with What Lies Beneath. I practically threw myself out the window.



Tell me, Jose - in your opinion, did that temp work well on its own terms? Was it fluid? Did it support the story / characters / emotion?


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## Ashermusic (Feb 27, 2011)

josejherring @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sun Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Unless it's a director's first film, I have trouble thinking he will expect the same sonic results from the temp which is snippets here and there worth several $100,000.00 of recordings, as what he's offering to pay, which unless you're well established in the industry, will be a substantial less amount. However the feel and tempo is what he wants to not change, general rule.
> ...



In that situation, it depends on the initial conversations. You have to be willing to risk not getting the job by being honest and saying something like,_ "You temped this with scores that were done by A-list composers with big budgets for an orchestra. While composers who know how can now do a respectable job with samples, it cannot sound like that. There are 2 kinds of composers: one will lie to you or kid himself by saying that he can do almost the same thing with samples. The second kind will tell you the truth. You now know which I am. Hire me and I will work my tail off to give you a score that sounds very good and works great with the film. But understand it will not sound like what you temped it with."_

If you get the job, you are working with the right guy. If you do not, perhaps you were better off anyway.


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## poseur (Feb 27, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> poseur @ Mon Feb 28 said:
> 
> 
> > i read on..... and disagree,
> ...



well, then!
i'm very sorry if i misunderstood your intent, within this repartée.

it did appear rude to me, or at least, dismissive;
not only dismissive-of & rude to _me_, fwiw,
but also generally to _any_ composer who might feel
some sense-of-ownership for their creative role in writing original material for films.

that specific query was read, here, as meaning something like this:
*"so, uh: who do you think you are, JW or HZ or something?"*

doesn't matter, much; i apologise for my misunderstanding.

i still stand by what i said:
pretty much, i get hired to be me..... not JW or HZ or anyone else;
many of my friends experience the very same things.
and i feel that i should continue entertaining the notion that "it's _my_ film, too";
it doesn't seem to alter my vision of "who's-the-boss", at all,
though even "who's the boss?" can be a tough question to answer in many films,
in these dazed days.....

dt


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## José Herring (Feb 27, 2011)

noiseboyuk @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> josejherring @ Sun Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > the last film I did was temped with End of Days, The Ring 2 and with What Lies Beneath. I practically threw myself out the window.
> ...



The temp was so good that it sounded like a done score to me. I thought the temp was fantastic. When I heard the temp I couldn't have been happier. I love those scores and in my heart of hearts The Ring 2 just cuts to my soul for some reason. What Lies Beneath and End of Days are beautiful. A little too repetitive because they kept on using the same music over and over again. So I was able to break away from the temp once the story got going. I wanted to get more into the development of the story and play to the moral choices that the characters were making and how that was leading them all to their doom. So the score got a bit more intense than the temp did.

Jay, I was honest with them. I did tell them exactly what you mentioned. They didn't buy it. Not one bit. They were so convinced that I could do it based on the few pieces of music that I played them to get the gig, which I admit I had composed playing to the samples I had. What was killing me was when the temp went beyond the capability of the samples. And, in some places I did say that the samples just can't sound like that. Mostly it was high strings legato arpeggiated stuff that I thought would sound totally unrealistic with samples.

All in all the score came off pretty good, they loved it. I liked it. Most other composers were kind of non commital about it neither hating it or praising it. Which is pretty normal for me. :lol: though I was wishing all day long that I could replace the samples with the real stuff. 

But, that gets me back to the original point. I have to really agree with Posuer on this. I truly believe that when you put your name on a project that you have just as much stake in the success of that project as the director and the producer. It's such a tight relationship for the few months that you're working on it that if I didn't truly believe during that time that I was just as invested in the film as they were then I would have totally failed myself, the film and the film makers. The director even told me that I had a profound influence on the direction of the film in terms of distribution deals. They were so burnt out after working on it for two years that they were almost ready to sign the film away to die some horrible death on a DVD shelf. When I delivered my last reel, I look the director straight in the eye after he thanked me for my hard work and I said, "my only hope for this film at this point is that it does really well for all the people that worked so hard on it." He told me he went back to his studio and thought about what I said. Talked it over with his producer. They bagged on the DVD deal. The next week they got a call and a meeting with one of the biggest agencies in town to shop for theatrical release.

Fingers crossed!


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## Ashermusic (Feb 27, 2011)

josejherring @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> [
> 
> 
> All in all the score came off pretty good, they loved it. I liked it. M



And that is all that matters, not what a bunch of other composers think. It sounds to me like you handled it well, so embrace that and make your peace with the fact that the gig is what the gig is, not some idealized version of what some people think it should be.


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## José Herring (Feb 27, 2011)

Ashermusic @ Sun Feb 27 said:


> josejherring @ Sun Feb 27 said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



Point well taken my friend.


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## noiseboyuk (Feb 27, 2011)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely!!! Jose, it sounds like you played it spot on. I'm only going on your description, but I bet your score WAS better than the temp. It's exactly my point - the temp may be beautiful, it may have got a real hit on the first use, those strings may be unparalleled, but yours FIT THE FILM, even if the strings didn't sound as good. Well done, mate.


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