# Music School for my nephew - Berklee or Leeds?



## Mike Greene (Apr 16, 2018)

My nephew got accepted to Berklee (Boston) and Leeds College of Music in England. He is now trying to decide which to attend.

He's a singer-songwriter, a la Ed Sheeren. He's not a composer or jazz guy or any of the traditional music school things, rather he's focused pretty specifically on improving his songwriting and performance chops. Guitar is his instrument (along with vocals.) He's very motivated, and writes and practices for hours a day, as well as interning at a local recording studio to see the business first hand. He's definitely serious about this.

I know pretty much nothing about these schools, other than lots of jazz guys went to Berklee. I assume Berklee now has a contemporary music program? Leeds sounds pretty cool too, because the change of environment could be good, plus it's England, which lends a certain cachet to the experience.

Anyone have thoughts or experiences that might be helpful?


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## gsilbers (Apr 16, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> My nephew got accepted to Berklee (Boston) and Leeds College of Music in England. He is now trying to decide which to attend.
> 
> He's a singer-songwriter, a la Ed Sheeren. He's not a composer or jazz guy or any of the traditional music school things, rather he's focused pretty specifically on improving his songwriting and performance chops. Guitar is his instrument (along with vocals.) He's very motivated, and writes and practices for hours a day, as well as interning at a local recording studio to see the business first hand. He's definitely serious about this.
> 
> ...




i feel the most important question is what do these offer after graduating. berklee has helped me with contacts in Los angeles where i got plenty of gigs. 

berklee has a lot of contemporary students and classes. its just that the harmony and theory classes rely heavy on jazz type of theory. so I-7b5 and chord scales etc. which is usefull for any music imo. opens up the mind to new things as well. berklee student are very motivated as a lot of them come from around the world and its very focus, as its a second chance sort of thing. many used to be from other fields but realize music its their thing. so student would be firday or saturday nights practicing their craft instead of goofying around like liberal arts colleges in the area. 

on the other side , and dont know if its a bad thing, is that kids get there thinking they know guitar and music to suddenly be inmerse in very complex and advance music stuff and loosing the love for it. so basically arriving at rick beatos studio and getting him to play music he likes with you. he will talk random advance theory and play a million notes a minute while changing chords every 2 bars and every note goes with a specifc chord scale...and say stuff like "on the 3rd bar there is a note C which is the 5th of the flat five of the domainant major of the nepolitan half diminished scale". beato didnt go to berklee but i swear every berklee teacher is exactly like him. italian and all. 
so since i went there i detest guitar solos with a passion... actually any fast solo. i worked as live sound 12-16 hours a day 4 days a week and had to listen to sooooo manyyy soollooss. from 8am to 10pm. sometimes id be the only one in the audience! 

so berklee gives you as advance as you want to take it. many do the profesional music degree with is performance and to be a star. and others in that path are very talented and do that simple pop music. so there is a plenty to choose. it doesnt have to be jazz or other things he woudlnt like. everyone just gets thrown into the same pool of theory at the start and then each student decides later if they want to persue different areas. 


i dont know anything about leeds. and berklee has chaged a lot since the new CEO took over. now they have mega buildings etc.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 16, 2018)

My experiences with Berklee were only with the online courses (I did a film music degree) and overall it was very disappointing if you already have a basic understanding of things. I feel similarly about the music program I'm in at the university here. 

The only reason I'd go to either of these is for potential connections. For actual learning, I don't think either are going to be much better than any other programs and if he's already as motivated as you say he is, there won't be much to learn. IMO it would be much better for him to spend time in studios, working with people, and trying to find a mentor.


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## The Darris (Apr 16, 2018)

tl;dr - Find a place that will help him develop his personal style versus telling him how to write and sing.

The deciding factor for me when I went back to school was finding a program that tailored to helping me development my craft for my particular focus, filming scoring/music for media in this case. Has he been able to visit those schools yet and talk with students and teachers to learn about how their program works?

I specifically targeted schools that were in the Bay Area since that's where I lived and the things that turned me off from the SF Conservatory, UC Berkeley, and a few others was the traditional training side of it. They didn't have any programs and private instruction that would help me focus on the music career I was wanting. I ended up going with Sonoma State University because their composition program focused directly on the student's pursuit versus some curriculum. I still had to take the general music courses for the degree but my concentration was far more geared towards my goals versus anything else.

I don't know anything about those two schools but since he's looking for something that will help him develop his chops for his singer/songwriting career, I'd say that he should really get in touch with the music departments, particularly the private lesson instructors and see what type of training they offer outside of the normal curriculum. Also, this is a good way for him to meet the people who would be teaching him and if there isn't some connection there, it might not be the best fit. I've seen so many student dropout because their private instructors were awful. With that said, it might be worth it if he could get a free lesson when he visits the schools to see their approach as well. I worked out a deal with the SF Conservatory to sit in on some of their composition classes and a 1 on 1 with a private instructor. It was there when I learned (at that time) that you wrote the music they wanted you to write which wasn't for me.

Good luck,

C


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## TIM_STEVE_97 (Apr 16, 2018)

I'm doing the Berklee online electronic music major and film scoring major. The online version but similar in content to the campus version. It's great, but it takes a lot of time year by year wise. (4 years like any degree). But per day not so demanding. I spend about 1hr a day on Berklee, and the rest working and practicing. That is much More important that just studying. The campus degree program would be great for connections as well, but it is very time constricting and you can't do much else besides being in the campus, and using the studio (which is hard to get) and collaborating. But you have to be learning at their pace. The online thing you can finish it much faster, like only 10hrs a week needed for 4 courses, the rest of the day I practice and write. You can travel and work shifts in a job if you do the online thing, not sure about the campus..


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## Garry (Apr 16, 2018)

Having been born and raised in the NorthWest of England, and spent the last 10 years living in the US and now Switzerland, for me Leeds has zero cachet! I was a student (not in music) in Sheffield (less than an hour south of Leeds), but my opinion may be outdated now, as that was many years ago. However, from my recent time in Massachusetts, Berklee is truly respected by the people around the Boston area; the facilities are fantastic (from an outside observer's point of view, I don't know as a student), and all the cachet, for me at least, lies with Berklee. We saw a concert there once from 2 guys playing bass guitar, one of which was the resident Professor of Bass! How cool is that: 'so, what do you do?', 'oh, I'm a professor of bass'!! 

It's more than 25years since I was at university in England, so I can only really offer (what may now be a dated) perspective of England, and how students are treated. Most university towns in England have what is referred to as town/gown problems (also saw the same, but to a lesser extent in Cambridge, but I've certainly witnessed it in Liverpool and Manchester (1hr from Leeds) as well as further around the country (including London, Glasgow and Edinburgh); perhaps a peculiarly English disease is a resentment of ambition and self-investment. Added to this that (again, I'm going back some years here), a reasonable proportion of students received small grants (based on a needs-assessment) to attend university, so were often unfairly regarded as people simply exploiting welfare and not wanting to get a job. So, others may be able to update with more recent perspectives, but in my days, we students had a difficult time in England, certainly with precious little cachet going around!

I don't know if this is still the case, but what I think is still a problem is the relationship we English (and the Scottish) have with alcohol: many towns and cities are disaster areas on Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights, with alcohol-fuelled violence all too frequently erupting in even the smallest of towns, and requiring a prominent police presence. Having since lived in other countries, I have come to recognise how peculiarly English this is: or at least, I saw no such problems on the US east coast or in Switzerland, which feel remarkably safe and peaceful. My kids will soon be of college age, and it fills me with dread that they may want to go to an English university.

So, if your nephew visits England, be sure to see it on Friday and Saturday night, and then run all the way to Berklee!


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## Joseph Price (Apr 16, 2018)

Hey Mike, I attended Leeds college of music and studied popular music, graduated in 2010. The popular music course really was pretty bad looking back at it, though I was very lucky to be placed with an amazing personal guitar tutor by the name of Ulrich Elbracht (https://www.lcm.ac.uk/about-us/tutors/ulrich-elbracht/). I would say that he was the only reason I'm a better musician now than I ever would have been without his guidance, though all the tutors there are amazing. The pop music course did allow you to select if you wanted to concentrate on composition or performance, the difference being that you do a end of year recital for performance and a coursework type marked piece for composition. I can tell you that Leeds is an amazing city, mainly filled to the brim with students, I ended up meeting the best friends I'll ever have there and also my wife. I now make a good living out of composing library music and custom music for advertising. For me I would never change my decision to go there as it had shaped my life into something i never knew it could be, though that's not to say it's the right decision for your nephew. I know very little about Berklee other than it's stellar reputation, I can only wish your nephew all the best and hope whichever decision he chooses, he enjoys it and succeeds in his endeavours.

All the best, 

Joe


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## DoctorGuitar007 (Apr 16, 2018)

I'm by no means as up to date as I once was on such things, but my impression (as someone in the UK) is that Berklee is considered one of the preeminent colleges in the US, if not the world ('though maybe they just have really good PR). I'd be suprised if many people consider Leeds in the top 10 of music colleges in the UK.


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## gsilbers (Apr 16, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> i feel the most important question is what do these offer after graduating. berklee has helped me with contacts in Los angeles where i got plenty of gigs.
> 
> berklee has a lot of contemporary students and classes. its just that the harmony and theory classes rely heavy on jazz type of theory. so I-7b5 and chord scales etc. which is usefull for any music imo. opens up the mind to new things as well. berklee student are very motivated as a lot of them come from around the world and its very focus, as its a second chance sort of thing. many used to be from other fields but realize music its their thing. so student would be firday or saturday nights practicing their craft instead of goofying around like liberal arts colleges in the area.
> 
> ...




oh, i would also like to add that being at berklee was extremly beneficial as the environment was so influencial, competitive and harmonious i felt i wanted to always learn and succeed way more than i could ever want w/o it. 

i get to see a japanese dude that looks like he is 15 yrs old playing master of puppet solos exactly like the record, w/o mistakes , then talking to friends asking me for help on music tech stuff but showing me their cool as song. kids answering and knowing a lot of the teachers questions and very happy to be there. while before i went to biz school elsewhere and everyone there just wanted to not be there and rather be getting crunked. 

so i think that helps a lot in education. that sense of man.. i am soo behind i got to learn the most as fast as i can to be able to make it. and once out it helps out in any job to be outgoign and a do getter. then also you have the berklee smug of complicated solos, over theory of complicated music etc. 

damn , i should get paid by beklee lol. there are negatives of course. i met BT and heitor pereira who obliviously didnt like as much since they drop out and now doing pretty well.


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## AlexRuger (Apr 16, 2018)

Went to Berklee and had a great time. You definitely get what you put into it, that's for sure. 

While it _does _have some excellent songwriting professors, I'd suggest that your nephew understand and _desire _the fact that that's only a small fraction of what he'll be learning. IMO Berklee is best for those who want to be the most _complete _musician that they can be -- everything from jazz, to songwriting, to engineering, to the business side, to 12 tone composition, and everything in between. I often feel like I wish I could have, like, thirty lifetimes just to focus on each aspect of a life in music as deeply as I'd like, so it was a great fit for me. I knew what I wanted to do in a general sense (scoring stuff), but I came out of there a dare-I-say pretty well-rounded musician, and that's because I did my best to take advantage of the school's inherent strengths.

If you go there for a narrow, specific reason, you'll likely be annoyed by Berklee requiring you to take History of Music, Counterpoint, liberal arts classes, Ear Training, etc. I knew _tons _of people like that, and they were usually songwriters, and they usually left by no later than their second year. That's a lot of money to blow just to learn that you aren't interested in letting Counterpoint get in the way of your songwriting career. These people are all universally unsuccessful, because you have to be a pretty shit and/or clueless musician to not understand the benefit of studying Counterpoint, regardless of what you do. But I digress.

Your nephew sounds like he could benefit from a Berklee education. I'd just suggest to him that he really soak it all up and be prepared to work his ass off. Also, don't take out too many loans...I made that mistake and it fucked up my early 20's big-time. 

Oh, and he shouldn't focus too much on the degree. I failed many a project (and even dropped a few classes) because I took professional work instead, and I don't regret it a bit -- I'm still collaborating with a lot of those people today. Still got my degree but honestly that was maybe useless. I could've left a year earlier and saved a fortunate in loans, and likely would be exactly where I am today, if not in a better place due to the extreme financial constraints I experienced, especially in my first year in LA/out of school.

Lastly, if he ends up going, tell him to not leave before studying guitar with David Tronzo. That man changed my life in a big way -- he's probably the most profound musician I've ever had the pleasure of knowing, and that's saying something.


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## tmhuud (Apr 16, 2018)

Berklee or bust.


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## clisma (Apr 16, 2018)

I think Alex summed it up pretty well up there, Mike. Berklee is first and foremost a wonderful environment for any musician to be in: the camaraderie, the mutual motivating, the jamming, the studio-time, the cross-departmental collaborations, etc. All of it serves to make you a solid musician with a not necessarily deep, but very well-rounded knowledge of many aspects of music, music history, and business.

Songwriting: can be hit or miss. In my time, it was a lot about what makes a hit. Nowadays it is far more important to have a unique and interesting voice, finding your audience and gigging. Maybe that’s changed a bit with faculty turnover, but I thought I’d mention it. Also, it’s good to understand that there can be more to songwriting than just harmony, rhythm, melody and lyrics. Production can be important and so can arrangement: Berklee provides top-notch education for both.

Facilities were first rate in my time, but they’ve improved a whole lot since.

“Fear” of Jazz: my only advice would be that everything you learn along the way makes you better. And if you think you know what you want, you might actually change your mind when exposed to music you didn’t know existed. 

Your nephew should consider hopping on a plane and flying to Boston to check out the campus, some of the facilities, talk to a few teachers in the songwriting department and get a feel. Then tour Boston. If he ain’t hooked at that point, well, there’s your answer.


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## SyMTiK (Apr 16, 2018)

I am currently a student at Berklee living on campus in Boston, going the route of Dual Majoring in Film Scoring and Music Production & Engineering. I am only finishing up my second semester now, but I can tell you that Berklee so far has been everything I could have dreamed of and more in a school.

Berklee has incredible opportunities that many other schools don't. The facilities here as far as studios and equipment go are top notch. There are MIDI labs with Pro Tools, Digital Performer, Logic, and Reason on them with VSL libraries. All around the facilities are extremely nice. 

Berklee consistently has clinics with some of the worlds top musicians and people working in all different parts of the industry. Last year (or a few years ago all I know is I wasn't there for it lol) James Newton Howard visited and gave the film scoring department access to working files from some of the recent films hes worked on for learning purposes to use in classes. Pharrell spoke a few weeks ago at our career jam, the lead singer from Fallout Boy stopped by while on tour to give a Q+A session. One of my favorite visitors this past semester was the Sound Design crew behind League of Legends. These are just a few of the visitors we've had in the past semester, needless to say though there's a healthy amount of people working in the industry who stop by and offer valuable clinics.

More than anything though, the environment here is great, with many very talented students and faculty that really push you to be the best musician you can be. There are a lot of professors here who have very accomplished careers, particularly in the MP&E department. Almost all of the professors I have had so far have been excellent and have gone above and beyond as far as teaching goes. The film scoring department is also very good, and there are many hands on projects getting to score to picture, and even work with a full orchestra in a studio scoring live to picture which is an incredible experience I am very excited for (this is something that happens typically in your junior or senior year). 

Berklee also has many great connections, and if you utilize Berklee's resources well, they are very helpful in trying to get you where you want to go.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Apr 16, 2018)

I got an offer for Leeds uni (over ten years ago, mind) and while Leeds is a nice enough place, I would definitely choose Berklee given the choice.

I ended up going to Liverpool, which would be a better fit than Leeds for a singer-songwriter given the history and the standard of the uni there. The facilities and general vibe in Leeds just didn't seem to be at the same level as Liverpool or other choices. Things may have changed, of course...


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## Vik (Apr 16, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> He's very motivated, and writes and practices for hours a day


That's good, because at least when I went to Berklee, we only had circa 12 hours of classes/week, the main thing was was what we did when we didn't have classes. 

Berklee has changed over the years - for instance, they have special classes about Jarrett's style, but when Jarrett was a student there, he was kicked out.  The only thing Berklee can't give you is a personal style; that needs to be sorted out for each of us anyway. But at least several of the teachers encouraged us no not just copy what others have done already, but rather work on developing a personal style. 
I also asked around for advice before I attended Berklee, and several pro musicians I asked back then mentioned that it's a good idea to go there, but unless the plan is to get a job teaching or anything else that's not about freelancing, one may not need to take more than a year there. Or rather, I heard that several musicians did just that. And in real life - as a freelancer - what matters is of course how you play/write (plus of course if anyone are hearing your stuff), and not a piece of paper from Berklee or somewhere else. 

Then again, that could change. When someone gets older, gets kids, and may want to do something else than touring or spending endless hour in a studio: that's when a piece of paper proving that you know something may help you to to get other, music related work - like for instance teaching at a college/university (which in my experience also can be inspiring and educational for the teacher/professor). 

I don't know where your cousin lives/plan to live, but he should probably reflect upon the fact that when you study you meet new people - which can become friends or potential colleagues, and this would be argument for studying not to far from where you plan to work and live later in life. And since getting enough interesting work is a major part of any freelancers 'business', it may be a good idea to study in the same country or part of the world as he plans to live (all depending on how talented/good at 'promoting himself' he is, of course).


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## Mike Greene (Apr 16, 2018)

These are great responses! I did not know most of this stuff, so this is all really, really helpful. Thank you!

He is visiting Berklee later this week, so based on what I'm reading here, I'm sure he'll be impressed. He's from Los Angeles, but went to Syracuse for two years, so being out of town (and in a cold climate) shouldn't be a problem.

I'm still interested in any other thoughts, so don't interpret my post here as closure. I just wanted to chime in to say thank you for what I've read so far. Any other thoughts are more than welcome, especially any experiences or thoughts on Leeds, which will obviously be less represented here.


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## JohnG (Apr 16, 2018)

Have you mentioned that life as a musician condemns one to perpetual hellish misery? Or words to that effect?


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## chimuelo (Apr 16, 2018)

As far as schooling goes you get out of it what you put into it.

A degree is no big deal but he’ll be surrounded by talented kids wanting to excel.
Hopefully he’ll learn to read and write, meet great people and be satisfied.
It’ll prepare you for a life of rejection.

Sure beats being settled into a routine.

The contacts I made in one year of Advanced Theory & Composition set me up for the first 10 years of performance. Concert Jazz Band in Europe when I was a teenager showed me how doing what you love, and traveling is a serious motivator.

Having kids makes you take a straight gig so you have something to fall back on.
I’d suggest a Union Trade.
That way you can come and go as you please, comp your bosses to shows, never think about the hard work because you’re singing and composing while being paid.


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## Mike Greene (Apr 16, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Have you mentioned that life as a musician condemns one to perpetual hellish misery? Or words to that effect?


Yes, I did, although I explained all that as we were riding in my Tesla, so I don't think he believed me.


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## prodigalson (Apr 16, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> He's a singer-songwriter, a la Ed Sheeren. He's not a composer or jazz guy or any of the traditional music school things, rather he's focused pretty specifically on improving his songwriting and performance chops. Guitar is his instrument (along with vocals.) He's very motivated, and writes and practices for hours a day, as well as interning at a local recording studio to see the business first hand. He's definitely serious about this.



Having graduated from Berklee in 2007 (a while ago but recent enough to still have a sense of what the school has to offer currently) the answer to me from reading this description is, hands down, Berklee. 

Berklee simply has so much to offer someone with the interests and skills you describe.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 16, 2018)

Tell him to invest the same money as going to Berklee into a year spent listening and writing and then a year of recording amazing music with an amazing engineer/producer at the amazing Mike Greene studios (or someplace equally amazing  )


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## JohnG (Apr 17, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> Yes, I did, although I explained all that as we were riding in my Tesla, so I don't think he believed me.



I know the situation. When a younger composer asks me about the industry, irrespective of what I'm saying, I can see the little thought bubble above her head, "Well, if _this_ idiot could make it, obviously anyone with half a brain...."


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## South Thames (Apr 17, 2018)

As a Brit who went to music college in both the UK and US at various points, I can safely say a couple of things:

1) You'll get a much better education experience in the US. The institutions are better funded, have better facilities, the curricula more well rounded, even in music college etc. If your alternative is going to the UK as an international student, it might well be quite a bit cheaper as well, particularly factoring in the more generous scholarships in the US etc.

2) Leeds College Of Music is not a particularly prestigious one, even in the UK, though I can't speak to the quality of the teaching. Berklee, as folks have noted, has an international reputation, and probably stands you in better stead to make quality connections in the industry (nobody really wants to visit Leeds - to teach or for other reasons).


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## NYC Composer (Apr 17, 2018)

Wow-at this point, I'm waiting for some Leeds graduate to show up and defend the honor of that institute of higher learning...


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## Richard Wilkinson (Apr 17, 2018)

If it was the Royal Academy, or Royal College, or Goldsmiths etc the choice would be tricker. Leeds isn't bad at all, it's just a fairly unremarkable uni in a fairly unremarkable place. And it doesn't have any particular reputation for music.


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## South Thames (Apr 18, 2018)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Leeds isn't bad at all, it's just a fairly unremarkable uni in a fairly unremarkable place.



Just to note that Leeds Colllege Of Music is not part of Leeds University. It's a conservatory and a separate institution.


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## chrisr (Apr 18, 2018)

NYC Composer said:


> Wow-at this point, I'm waiting for some Leeds graduate to show up and defend the honor of that institute of higher learning...



The silence is deafening.

I'm so out of the loop on this sort of thing. I looked through the list of tutors and they seem to be a jolly nice bunch and very well qualified to do the job. Only recognised one name amongst them, which was Andy Hickey, who briefly taught me some jazz piano at uni in the 90s (not Leeds). A lovely man and a very capable tutor. Before Andy I'd had an _absolutely stellar_ jazz pianist as an instrumental tutor, but it was a terribly bad fit - I obviously couldn't get anywhere near his level and he couldn't seem to come down to my level - I learned so much more from Andy, who recognised what I needed and helped me move forward.

Many years ago, an ex of mine had a job that was split between working in Boston USA, and Wokingham in Surrey. She was neither british nor american, if that matters, but I recall, still with some surprise, that she much preferred Wokingham over Boston (!) which she found to be a somewhat sterile environment if I remember correctly. Perhaps we brits sometimes aren't so good at recognising the cultural richness of our own towns and cities.


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## SillyMidOn (Apr 18, 2018)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> If it was the Royal Academy, or Royal College, or Goldsmiths etc the choice would be tricker. Leeds isn't bad at all, it's just a fairly unremarkable uni in a fairly unremarkable place. And it doesn't have any particular reputation for music.


I have to agree with that assessment. Also if your nephew is coming from LA, the weather in Leeds will be a bit of a shock, never mind that he will probably not be able to understand any of the locals with their accents for the first few months. Yorkshire folk can also be a tad grumpy (don't mean to offend anyone ) Leeds is nothing Special, Berklee is, BUT having said all that, he might have the time of this life in Leeds, as it's not always the best/most prestigious places where one has the best learning experience. The only way yo know is to go and visit both places, and ultimately it doesn't matter that much where you go, but what you do with your time there, i.e. how much is the student going to put into learning. From what I remember we didn't have that much time in lectures, but I spent hours practicing, rehearsing and writing scores, and being somewhere where you can do that, plonk a new sheet in front of someone to play, is invaluable.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Apr 18, 2018)

I've seen that Mcintyre skit before and it really bugs me. As a (lapsed) Northener myself, the 't' abbreviation here is replacing '*to the*' not 'the'. So the _Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe_ example wouldn't be contracted in that way. Instead someone might say they were "going t' cinema" to watch it.


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