# The Imperial March (all Sonivox)



## hbuus (Sep 18, 2010)

Here is a version of The Imperial March by John Williams:

***
Version 8: (final version):
http://www.box.net/shared/hxm9cs2eka

Version 7 (slightly less reverb):
http://www.box.net/shared/c898f9i7ma

Version 6.2:
http://www.box.net/shared/q72fnioa4s 

Version 5:
http://www.box.net/shared/61tz9fjqr0 

Version 4:
http://www.box.net/shared/degxm4bkmc 

Version 3:
http://www.box.net/shared/fqe7d0ucin 

Version 2:
http://www.box.net/shared/ts3spuo60s 

Version 1:
http://www.box.net/shared/m2v1r67s6f 

***

Everything was done with Sonivox.

All comments are welcome. Thanks!

Best,
Henrik

PS. Credits for raw MIDI data goes to:
http://moviethemes.net/starwars.html


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## bryla (Sep 18, 2010)

Great to hear, Henrik!

Doesn't Sonivox have round-robins? It sounds very machinegun-ish.
I think you could rephrase the initial brass melody. The Eb is unnaturally accented in relation to G and Bb. Just before the high G's you could do with ending the previous phrase sooner.
The brass in the first section sounds pretty weak generally.

From what I know Sonivox doesn't have legato right? Do you use SIPS legato? It would help the melodic instruments.

I must admit that apart from the melody I don't really recall the piece, so there's probably more to it than what I've pointed out. Also I listen on a laptop, so nothing mix-wise from me.

Accents and phrasing are the two points I would like to make, but a great leap from the last I heard from you!

Best
Thomas


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## lux (Sep 18, 2010)

Henrik,

you should check the original tempo and change it in your sequencer, as this one runs at a ridicolous too fast tempo actually.


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## hbuus (Sep 19, 2010)

RiffWraith, thanks for all that good advice, I appreciate it.

Here's a new version:
http://www.box.net/shared/fqe7d0ucin

I tried to take care of the staccato strings in the first 1/3 part of the piece.
(It's a lot of tedious mouse-work, so I have to split it up over several days because of my old mouse injury. That's why only 1/3 is done.)
Sonivox comes with up and down bow patches of spiccato.
So I switch between those now to prevent the machinegun effect.

I also added more reverb to the brass.

In the coming days I may proceed with changing staccato strings.
I would also like to try and handle that field drum better according to the advice you gave me, RiffWraith.

It's interesting to hear how various changes affect the piece, I think.
Thus I post again here with this updated version for you to listen to.

Best,
Henrik


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## Angel (Sep 19, 2010)

The brasses' release time is too long.
The part starting at 0:44 sounds good, especially the harp and the woods.
Then when the brass takes over the melody again and a little while later, where brass takes over the repetitive rhythm, even the attack times are too long. There is not that explosive tongue, the piece needs.
And overalls it's too quantized.

EDIT: I only mentioned the negative things in your cue! There are a lot of positive ones though


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## hbuus (Sep 20, 2010)

Angel, thanks for listening and commenting!
I have tried to take your points into consideration in this new version (which would be version 4):
http://www.box.net/shared/degxm4bkmc

Changes are:
- Overall loudness of the piece has been increased quite a bit.
- Staccato strings are now switching between up and down bow throughout the piece to reduce machinegun effect
- Woodwinds were playing legato, they are now playing staccato (hard to hear, but still, makes a little change)
- Tuba was playing legato, it is now playing staccato. This actually has a rather audible effect
- Brass has release times reduced
- Horns have attack decreased
- Each instrument has its start time varied a little bit in the sequencer to hopefully reduce the level of perceived quantizicing
- Percussion has its velocity changed in exposed areas of the piece in order to reduce machinegun effect
- Various small mixing changes to volume of instruments

Best,
Henrik


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## hbuus (Sep 20, 2010)

Thank you, dexterflex. I'm glad you like it.
I'm not using Gigastudio and gigapulse reverb, I'm using Kontakt with reverb from Peter's Samplicity (www.samplicity.com).

Best,
Henrik


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## Rob (Sep 20, 2010)

Much better, strings in particular are now way better, you can feel the bow bouncing on the strings... now you should dedicate yourself to brass instruments, in two directions, IMO:
1) find a better phrasing for as they are now they seem to have little understanding of the meaning of the music they have to play
2) play individually slightly different tracks so that they are not so mechanically in time, perfectly together, which would not happen in real life...
it seems to me that you are on the right track, anyway


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## lux (Sep 20, 2010)

Henrik,

you could try layering a staccato patch on the brass to fake a punchy attack. That could work nicely with trombones expecially but i would try it also on trumps and horns. Dont let the staccatos shine out, just keep em as a sort of "attack enhancers"

piece is improving good
Luca


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## hbuus (Sep 21, 2010)

Rob, thanks for commenting.
If I understand your 1) correctly, you mean that it is like the brass players do not play with enough passion, for lack of a better description?
As for your 2), in this new version below I have tried to handle it a little by using different delay times for each brass track in the sequencer. I know I should probably play each track, but I'm a horrible keyboard player.

Lux, thanks for the encouraging words and also for that great tip, I've used it below and it works very well!

Anyway, here is version 5:
http://www.box.net/shared/61tz9fjqr0

Changes:
- Reverb tail added to master output to increase the sense of large hall-space.

- I tried to bring out WW more while at the same time not overemphazising the section. This change is especially audible in the mid section, but also i.e. with the staccato bassoon at the end of the piece.

- Staccato patches layered on brass instruments to get a more punchy attack (thanks Lux!). I tried to add this so it is audible when removed, but at the same time does not stand out and calls attention to itself when it's on.

- Brass instruments now start at more seperate times in the sequencer:
French Horns 22.00
Trumpets 20.00
Trombones 24.00
Tuba 25.00
I could use some help with the values above.
I'm an awful keyboard player so playing in the pieces is not an option.
The intent is to not have all brass instruments play perfectly in sync, as this is unlikely when a real orchestra plays.

Best,
Henrik


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## Hannes_F (Sep 21, 2010)

Hendrik, I think this is developing into a nice demo both for your growth of command on samples and the Sonivox library.

BTW since you have them all (I believe) ... can you say which instruments have legato samples in the Kontakt version (I believe some winds and brass but not the strings)?

One little point perhaps - the pickup notes in the theme are a little unarticulated at times (happens on real instruments easily also). That is why live players would give them a little more volume/attack than the following note, like

Ta Ta Ta, Ta ..Tata, Ta .. Tata ...

I guess if you listen to the OST you will notice that (but don't overdo it then in the mockup, it is only subtle).


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## Rob (Sep 21, 2010)

hbuus @ 21st September 2010 said:


> Rob, thanks for commenting.
> If I understand your 1) correctly, you mean that it is like the brass players do not play with enough passion, for lack of a better description?
> ...
> ...
> ...



yes, exactly! You might try to sing those lines, giving them the expression they should have, a majestic, proud feel and closely observe your own voice... all the accents/connections/ties/staccatos/cresc/diminuendo etc that you do naturally with your voice should transfer in the brass, as closely as possible. It's just a suggestion, of course, there are many ways to focus on phrasing... as for 2), I have to listen to your new version first, talk soon


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## hbuus (Sep 21, 2010)

Guys, thanks for commenting! I'll get to it below.
First of all, here is version 6.2:
http://www.box.net/shared/q72fnioa4s

Changes:
- Only one: I have tried to experiment with changing the tempo of the piece at various places:
0.41 - 0.45
0.55 and onwards
1.36 - 1.45
1.46
2.22 - 2.31
It is a very subtle change - I tried not to overdo it and make it too audible.

Anyway.. .

Hannes_F:
Thank you very much for your kind words!
Perhaps I should talk to Sonivox and see if they would want this as a demo of their library. It would be an honor for me to contribute in this way!
As for the thing about the pickup notes, I will have to listen to the OST to see what it's about. It sounds like only a little change, but I am learning quickly that little changes to the better all add up to making a piece more interesting to listen to.
You ask about legato samples in the Kontakt version (yes I have the full library).
There are legato samples for all instruments - both for winds, brass and strings. However the transition between notes is not sampled I believe.
It can be handled by the SIPS script, which is included on some instruments (but which can of course easily be added to all instruments you may want).

Rob:
Good idea about singing the lines, I know exactly what you mean and how the brass could be changed in this manner. I suppose I could play in some of the tracks as it is not a difficult piece to play in (slow notes mostly). I will see if my lazyness (!) will let me experiment with this in the upcoming days.

Thanks everybody for listening & commenting!

Best,
Henrik


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## lux (Sep 21, 2010)

I like how this thread progresses. Mostly this has to be addressed to Henrik nice approach to suggestions.

I think there's a bit too much reverb for my taste. My two attempts actually would be

- reducing release time in the reverb to 1.2/1.3 and reducing the overall wet. 
- Applying a pre-reverb general cut at 500hz with a large Q


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## bryla (Sep 21, 2010)

hbuus @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> I don't understand how to add a "pre-reverb general cut at 500hz with a large Q", as you also suggest, lux. When I add a general cut at 500hz, it simply takes away all the bass. So I'm not doing it right.


Insert an EQ on your reverb bus but before the reverb itself and cut at 500Hz. Or check to see if your reverb has an EQ and if it affects the sound before it is sent to the reverb.

Not to be a party-pooper, but I doubt that Sonivox will use this a demo .... simply because of a copyright issue


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## Hannes_F (Sep 21, 2010)

hbuus @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> You ask about legato samples in the Kontakt version (yes I have the full library).
> There are legato samples for all instruments - both for winds, brass and strings. However the transition between notes is not sampled I believe.
> It can be handled by the SIPS script, which is included on some instruments (but which can of course easily be added to all instruments you may want).



Hi Henrik,

just to avoid a confusion: What you mean is that there are legato _patches _for all instruments (I have the strings myself, so I know their legato script) and legato patches could use either a legato script or legato samples. However if we more specifically talk about legato _samples _we mean recorded legato snippets.

If I remember well there were legato samples in the giga version of the Sonivox instruments for brass and winds but last time I checked this were not ported to Kontakt.

Could you please do me a favor and look into the samples folder of the brass or winds whether there is a sub-folder with legato samples in it or something? Thank you so much. o-[][]-o o-[][]-o


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## hbuus (Sep 21, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Tue Sep 21 said:


> just to avoid a confusion: What you mean is that there are legato _patches _for all instruments (I have the strings myself, so I know their legato script) and legato patches could use either a legato script or legato samples. However if we more specifically talk about legato _samples _we mean recorded legato snippets.
> 
> If I remember well there were legato samples in the giga version of the Sonivox instruments for brass and winds but last time I checked this were not ported to Kontakt.
> 
> Could you please do me a favor and look into the samples folder of the brass or winds whether there is a sub-folder with legato samples in it or something? Thank you so much. o-[][]-o o-[][]-o



Looking in the samples subdir for both brass and winds I can indeed see subdirs named Legato. For Horns it is like this:

2 Horns Legato F
2 Horns Legato FFF
2 Horns Legato MF
2 Horns Legato P

Similarly with the other instruments.
Yet the Horns legato _patches_ still use the SIPS-script.
I'm confused!

Best,
Henrik


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## Hannes_F (Sep 22, 2010)

Henrik,

that is very interesting. 

Kontakt has two windows on the left side, right? If you double click your way in the upper left window into one of these legato folders, say into '2 Horns Legato F' then you should see a list of individual samples with cryptic names in the lower window.

You then can mark these samples one by one and press on the little loudspeaker symbol right below that list. Just be sure that you turn your physical loudspeakers a little down or use the volume slider left to the little loudspeaker symbol to reduce the volume because sometimes these samples are normalized and will be rather loud.

If you find any real legato samples they will sound like a very short transition from one note to the other, like a 'uuuii'. Could you have a look for me, preferable on the solo instruments? Thanks a bunch!


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## hbuus (Sep 22, 2010)

Hannes_F,

There are indeed interval samples! I didn't know! But only for some of the instruments.
For example in the folder named Oboes and English Horn Samples I find the following subdirs:

Solo Oboe Legato Vib Trans F
Solo Oboe Legato Vib Trans MF
Solo Oboe Legato Vib Trans P

I can click on the wav-files and then load them, so I can play them on the keyboard. And it is indeed small interval samples. Like a little "dot", if you know what I mean. In other words, no doubt: Interval samples.

The sad thing is, there are no subfolders named Trans for 2 Oboes.
What's more, after quickly looking into the Samples folder for Flutes, Clarinets and Bassoons, there are no subfolders named anything with Trans.
Checking brass instruments' samples didn't reveal any subfolders named Trans either.
So apparently it is only the oboe that has transition samples :(

Strange these have not been ported to Kontakt, when you say they are there in the Gigastudio version. Ack!

Hope this helps,

Henrik


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## hbuus (Sep 22, 2010)

Btw. in case some of you are still hanging on and listening to these updates to this piece, I made what I consider a final version (version 8 ):
http://www.box.net/shared/hxm9cs2eka

Changes:
- Trumpets and trombones have been mixed a little down in volume
- A little more reverb
- Bassdrum is now used quietly in the beginning bars of the piece
- Various smaller mixing changes

Best,
Henrik


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## futur2 (Sep 22, 2010)

reverb of version 6 sounded better to my ear. lowering the brass is a good decision. great developement from the 1st version on! interesting stuff to listen to...


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