# Study of Orchestration (Steven Adler EDIT... or Samuel Adler)



## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

Thinking of buying The Study of Orchestration by Steven Adler and noticed there are different versions. The price difference between version 3 and 4 is quite a bit and I'm currently trying to live on a bit of a shoe string at the moment as I have moved from the UK to USA. Has anyone here read both the 3rd and 4th editions and if so, what is different about the 4th edition?

Thanks

Jono


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## gtrwll (Sep 21, 2019)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 3rd version comes with the audio content on CDs, while the 4th edition has them delivered via download, which is available for a limited time after the purchase.

Have you checked your local public library if it would have it available?


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

gtrwll said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but 3rd version comes with the audio content on CDs, while the 4th edition has them delivered via download, which is available for a limited time after the purchase.
> 
> Have you checked your local public library if it would have it available?



Interesting. I shall do some research about the audio content. I think I'd like to own the book instead of renting it. Just for any notes I may or may note deface the thing with. Thinking about it, I don't even know if there is a local library where I currently live. Spent pretty much all my time in a studio or at my apartment trying to make it "homely".


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## gtrwll (Sep 21, 2019)

Yes, definitely buy it when you have the chance! It's worth it's weight in gold. Just thought that a library book can get you up and running if you're in a tight spot at the moment.


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## dzilizzi (Sep 21, 2019)

I think I picked up the 3rd version used through Amazon. Unfortunately, it didn't come with the disks. From what I understand with the digital, you get it free with purchase for somewhere between 3 months and a year, then have to pay way more than you should to keep accessing the online information. So might as well get the earlier version. 

Okay, wow, looking at the prices, you might want to wait until school is in session a little longer. Since I got it for $16 + tax at the beginning of September from a Goodwill and now it is about triple the price, I can only think it is so high because students are buying.


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

I just logged into my US Amazon account and turns out I had a $75 voucher in the account. Can't for the life of me remember how that happened so I just bought the Third Edition for $48! Amazing! I'll look at what audio/music I need to buy but considering I haven't paid anything, this has turned into a very good day after all.

I'm intrigued if there is anything else hugely lacking in the Third compared to the Fourth but it will probably take me a long time to digest the whole book anyway so I shall see how it goes!


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## mducharme (Sep 21, 2019)

There isn't much difference except for the recordings mentioned before. You won't get them with the third edition, but if you get the fourth edition you get online access for a certain amount of time.


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## dzilizzi (Sep 21, 2019)

I'm thinking probably not. Most of the stuff he talks about is covered by music that is not very new. I think you can probably listen to most of it on YouTube or a music streaming service.


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## NoamL (Sep 21, 2019)

Yep, let YouTube & IMSLP be your resource.

In addition to the Adler book you may eventually want to check out Piston's Orchestration or Kennan's Technique of Orch. 

But regardless of which author you study, you are super on the right path right now looking at an orchestration text instead of any of those online "virtual orchestration" seminars!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 21, 2019)

It's a great book. I also really like the cover!


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's a great book. I also really like the cover!



I hope there's a narrated version. The guy can barely talk from all the Heroin he's done!


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Yep, let YouTube & IMSLP be your resource.
> 
> In addition to the Adler book you may eventually want to check out Piston's Orchestration or Kennan's Technique of Orch.
> 
> But regardless of which author you study, you are super on the right path right now looking at an orchestration text instead of any of those online "virtual orchestration" seminars!



I've been trying to write a purely orchestral piece with Samples and it's just so hard. Especially not reaching for Sound Design stuff to make transitions into new sections and avoiding all cinematic percussion. So far I have some wood blocks on 1 bar in the piece... So I figured I need to seriously get on it with some deep orchestral study haha


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Piston's Orchestration or Kennan's Technique of Orch.



I'll get both. Once I've read Samuel Adler's book.

Just realised I typed Steven Adler!


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## NoamL (Sep 21, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> I've been trying to write a purely orchestral piece with Samples and it's just so hard. Especially not reaching for Sound Design stuff to make transitions into new sections and avoiding all cinematic percussion. So far I have some wood blocks on 1 bar in the piece... So I figured I need to seriously get on it with some deep orchestral study haha



Share it here when you're done!!


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

NoamL said:


> Share it here when you're done!!



I'd get ripped apart. haha


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## cqd (Sep 21, 2019)

I have just read Rimsy Korsikov during the week (without audio examples) and my string writing definitely improved already..

I actually found the audio from Adler on a hard drive yesterday, and got out my second edition today to start into it..

There isn't much difference between the second and later editions so?..


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## synergy543 (Sep 21, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> I've been trying to write a purely orchestral piece with Samples and it's just so hard. Especially not reaching for Sound Design stuff to make transitions into new sections and avoiding all cinematic percussion. So far I have some wood blocks on 1 bar in the piece... So I figured I need to seriously get on it with some deep orchestral study haha


Luke, if you're having difficulty writing orchestral stuff, then check out this free link and download the pdf. Wagner gives you great step-by-step examples on how to orchestrate from simple keyboard lines.








Orchestration; a practical handbook : Wagner, Joseph, 1900-1974 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


Selected list of published orchestral transcriptions of music for keyboard instruments (p. 348-349) Bibliography: p. 350



archive.org






Check out p.61 and p.292 This will give you an overview of what this book is about, but it full of great material. Its a great compliment to Adler and I think you'll really find it helpful.

btw, there are many other gems online too if you know where and what to look for.


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

synergy543 said:


> Luke, if you're having difficulty writing orchestral stuff, then check out this free link and download the pdf. Wagner gives you great step-by-step examples on how to orchestrate from simple keyboard lines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you! I shall check it out! Sounds great! Yes, writing Orchestral music is always difficult. Writing any music that isn't dogs brown is always difficult (for me).


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2019)

synergy543 said:


> Luke, if you're having difficulty writing orchestral stuff, then check out this free link and download the pdf. Wagner gives you great step-by-step examples on how to orchestrate from simple keyboard lines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is really great. Thank you so much for sharing this!


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## synergy543 (Sep 21, 2019)

Glad to help. As I said, there are many more great gems but I don't want to drown you with links. Feel free to contact me if you want ideas for additional material. Just like the golden oldie Korngold movies that are no longer on Netflix, there are lots of great orchestration resources that have been buried over the years. On one hand, its really sad. On the other its fun to find new gold!

btw, that is a pick ax for gold in your icon right? And not Friday 13th one to whack my head off?


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## CT (Sep 21, 2019)

Adler is a great resource; it's what I used to get most of my foundation. I'd also look into Henry Brant's "Textures and Timbres," which is pretty revelatory.


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## cqd (Sep 21, 2019)

I'll just put it out there too, that I have a literally brand new copy of Brant's Textures and timbres for sale in Ireland..ordered two copies by accident..


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## bvaughn0402 (Sep 21, 2019)

What was the other book Christian Henson recommended in his Day 1 video?


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## Zedcars (Sep 21, 2019)

bvaughn0402 said:


> What was the other book Christian Henson recommended in his Day 1 video?


I thought it was Walter Piston’s Orchestration book and the Adler one. Maybe there was another that I missed?

There’s also one by Alfred Blatter called Instrumentation and Orchestration which is very good.

I went a bit bonkers when I was a music student 20 years ago and bought every orchestration book I could find. I tried reading them like normal books and found it better to use them as reference books really. I think the Adler one is one of the most comprehensive out there.


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## Shredoverdrive (Sep 23, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> I hope there's a narrated version. The guy can barely talk from all the Heroin he's done!


Heard he's clean now and does all the orchestration for the no snorting orchestra.


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## jononotbono (Sep 27, 2019)

synergy543 said:


> btw, that is a pick ax for gold in your icon right? And not Friday 13th one to whack my head off?



We British prefer the word “Hatchet”.

Looks like I can begin the journey of Adler now. Let the brain melting commence...


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## mducharme (Sep 27, 2019)

It is really a great book, but it tends to read more like a reference manual. If you already know the basics (ex. if you have a teacher to go through the stuff), the layout makes perfect sense, and it is excellent as a reference. If you are starting out without a teacher, it groups together common techniques with infrequently used techniques and it is hard to tell what is important and what is not.

You might want to go through this first: http://www.thereelscore.com/PortfolioStuff/PDFFiles/TechniqueOfOrchestration.pdf

That is based on the Kennan book which is much better at introducing concepts in a logical order (giving you some idea of the relative importance).


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## jonathanparham (Sep 27, 2019)

wonderful suggestions already. Mentioned in other threads. Scoreclub. Orchestrating the line series.


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## Hywel (Sep 28, 2019)

@mducharme 
Off topic but... is that a picture of Barbara Bain in her Space 1999 days that you have as your avatar?


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## AllanH (Sep 29, 2019)

I read Adler 4 from cover to cover and I think there was far to much information to take it all in. At least for me. 

I find it far more valuable to go back and look at e.g. trumpets when I'm writing for trumpet. I then study first the instrumentation in front and follow that with the more general orchestration in the second half of the book. FWIW, I find much of the best orchestration advice interspersed in the instrumentation sections. I often listen to the examples to make sure I understand. Adler is a remarkable book, but a bit overwhelming, at least at first.


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## sinkd (Sep 29, 2019)

miket said:


> Adler is a great resource; it's what I used to get most of my foundation. I'd also look into Henry Brant's "Textures and Timbres," which is pretty revelatory.


Brant's book is very good. You can find a couple of his works on Spotify--Louisville Symphony I think.


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## sinkd (Sep 29, 2019)

You know what I think the best orchestration tutorial to get started is right now? NotePerformer and a notation program.


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## damcry (Sep 30, 2019)

sinkd said:


> You know what I think the best orchestration tutorial to get started is right now? NotePerformer and a notation program.



Agree with that.
However Iv'e always asked myself whether it is easy to find orchestral scores (or project ) made for these notation program (in xml or whatever format ...) ??


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## dzilizzi (Sep 30, 2019)

sinkd said:


> You know what I think the best orchestration tutorial to get started is right now? NotePerformer and a notation program.


Does Note Performer limit what you can to do actual playable things? 

I was going to say notes, but really it is more than the notes. Because VI's can play things that are not necessarily playable by your average trained player. This is what I struggle with. Things like "You know, your oboe player does have to breathe at some point" or "doing a pizzicato then bowing then pizzicato without a break will make the violinist throw his bow at you!" or "They can't mute and unmute that fast!" 

Of course, it is not as if any orchestra will play my music any time soon. *cough* or ever *cough*


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## Living Fossil (Sep 30, 2019)

jononotbono said:


> I've been trying to write a purely orchestral piece with Samples and it's just so hard. Especially not reaching for Sound Design stuff to make transitions into new sections and avoiding all cinematic percussion.



Books about orchestration are for sure a great ressource for getting an overview about the basic.
However, the even more important thing is to develop a vocabulary of supporting lines, textures, voicings etc. In the traditional (post-) romantic orchestral music the obvious surface makes up around 20% (i.e. the melodies and prominent obligatos) while all the supportive stuff (which the average listener don't even perceives consciously) is up to 80%. (these numbers are of course to be taken with a grain of salt).

Therefore, in my opinion it's absolutely necessary to selfstudy scores (there is just so many stuff available at IMSLP)...


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## Sears Poncho (Sep 30, 2019)

sinkd said:


> You know what I think the best orchestration tutorial to get started is right now? NotePerformer and a notation program.


Yes. I'd also recommend this book to go along with it. It's pocket-size, cheap and gets to the point as far as ranges, characteristics etc. 

Pocket book on Orchestration 

The Adler book is good. There's a book by Rimsky-Korsakov that's public domain and I think is on the internet. It's worth a look. It may be "outdated" but the principles aren't. The Sammy Nestico book is good too, there's plenty of "crossover" between worlds. It's amusing as well. 

The ultimate "books": Bach Chorales and Mozart String Quartets. It's common sense. "Orchestration" is relatively easy, it's the other stuff that's the nightmare.


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## sinkd (Sep 30, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> Does Note Performer limit what you can to do actual playable things?
> 
> I was going to say notes, but really it is more than the notes. Because VI's can play things that are not necessarily playable by your average trained player. This is what I struggle with. Things like "You know, your oboe player does have to breathe at some point" or "doing a pizzicato then bowing then pizzicato without a break will make the violinist throw his bow at you!" or "They can't mute and unmute that fast!"
> 
> Of course, it is not as if any orchestra will play my music any time soon. *cough* or ever *cough*


You certainly know enough to ask the right questions. Watching videos of orchestras performing can help. Of course the VI is going to play without complaint things that would not fly in the real world, but NotePerformer actually can give you a reasonable sense of the balance of things and the timbral characteristics of register and articulation.


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## sinkd (Sep 30, 2019)

Sears Poncho said:


> Pocket book on Orchestration


Yes. Alfred publishes it I think.


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## yellowtone (Oct 7, 2019)

mducharme said:


> It is really a great book, but it tends to read more like a reference manual. If you already know the basics (ex. if you have a teacher to go through the stuff), the layout makes perfect sense, and it is excellent as a reference. If you are starting out without a teacher, it groups together common techniques with infrequently used techniques and it is hard to tell what is important and what is not.
> 
> You might want to go through this first: http://www.thereelscore.com/PortfolioStuff/PDFFiles/TechniqueOfOrchestration.pdf
> 
> That is based on the Kennan book which is much better at introducing concepts in a logical order (giving you some idea of the relative importance).



this whole thread is quickly becoming my favorite and most referenced!! I started reading the book in this PDF, it’s a great start. One question though, is there a reference for finding the relevant recordings? For example, very early on the author suggests listening to Symphony No 5 from 4 different composers: Schubert, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich to listen for differences in orchestration... are there specific recordings I should listen to which employ the original orchestration? I found all of these symphonies on Spotify but just want to be certain I’m going to hear what the author expects. The next example compares Mozart’s symphony No 5 with Schubert’s C Major Symphony No 7, but I can’t find the latter on Spotify or Prime music. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. If anyone is reading this now I’d be interested to share learnings along the way as well.


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## JohnG (Oct 7, 2019)

FWIW I found both Piston and Korsakov (and Kennan) somewhat elementary and, worse, so outdated that they may lead a composer to write in an overly conservative way. Since those times players have better instruments and the things they can execute are nothing short of dazzling. The ranges indicated in some books don't do justice to the players you can find in many cities now.

That's one of the advantages of Adler -- I don't have it right in front of me but he provides ranges for professional players that are more indicative of what you could expect today.

In the 1950s,, there were piano-works recordings released of Bach, Rachmaninoff and others that have many errors (playing errors -- wrong notes or fumbled ones). You never hear that today. I'm not saying they weren't great interpretations or any of that, but technically they can't touch today's fairly average players.

Don't get me wrong -- I like Rimsky Korsakov's prose, and actually enjoy his music (something that would have gotten me tarred and feathered in grad school in my day). You can of course get great ideas from almost any source, and Korsakov certainly deserves respect.

But for orchestration, I'd say Adler better reflects what today you can get out of players in New York, Los Angeles, London.

I'm about to find out if you can get them in Eastern Europe too, so fingers crossed here!


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## yellowtone (Oct 7, 2019)

JohnG said:


> FWIW I found both Piston and Korsakov (and Kennan) somewhat elementary and, worse, so outdated that they may lead a composer to write in an overly conservative way. Since those times players have better instruments and the things they can execute are nothing short of dazzling. The ranges indicated in some books don't do justice to the players you can find in many cities now.
> 
> That's one of the advantages of Adler -- I don't have it right in front of me but he provides ranges for professional players that are more indicative of what you could expect today.
> 
> ...



Can you clarify, do you feel the Adler book is good to read through as a guide to orchestration, or agree with others who say Adler is better as a reference guide? My post prior to this was in relation to the Joseph Wagner book (pdf that @mducharme linked to earlier in this thread), published 1959. I've only read a bit of it so far as I'm trying to find/listen to the example symphonies as I read, but while the English is a bit old the overall reading is very interesting to start. Just want to make sure I'm reading the right book(s) to learn this stuff. I plan to find a teacher in January once I've moved back to the US, but for now trying to read up.


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## mducharme (Oct 7, 2019)

I didn't link to the Joseph Wagner book but have it both on paper and as a PDF. It is OK, but the chapters on piano->orchestra techniques are really excellent, much better than similar sections found in other books (including Adler). To me those chapters are the only ones really worth it in the book, other books handle everything else in a better way.

The Adler book is not great for learning from scratch without a teacher because it gives you a big dump of everything you can do at once without really giving you any idea of what is important and what is not. If you already know what is important and what isn't, the Adler book is better arranged as a reference than any other orchestration book I have worked with. If you don't know those things, it is hard to get a sense from Adler's writing what the most important things are, so that you can learn the core stuff and build slowly from there.

The Kennan is much better at presenting materials in order of importance; the only negative is that once you have already learned the materials it is less useful than the Adler since it can take a bit longer to find the specific technique that you are searching for.

The ranges in the Kennan are conservative for professionals, but for those who may not get to work with a top orchestra, it can be good to have some idea of the range that you can expect from performers that are not at that top echelon. Besides, for beginning orchestrators, most problems result from writing things that are really impossible (or at least very difficult/awkward) for the performers rather than the opposite (writing things too conservatively). Performers often don't share how difficult a certain passage is (or how much less awkward it would be if a slight change was made with little impact to the sound), so you won't necessarily get this feedback from actual performers like you might expect.


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## yellowtone (Oct 7, 2019)

Ah, OK, I will check out the Kennan book then as we’ll. I typically write by playing something with a piano and then trying to orchestrate from there so I’ll skip to those chapters in Wagner and then likely check out Adler after Kennan. Thank you for the insights, really enjoying learning this stuff but there’s so much to get through.


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## Sears Poncho (Oct 7, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> Schubert’s C Major Symphony No 7, but I can’t find the latter on Spotify or Prime music. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.


It's actually Symphony No 9, "The Great" C major. They got re-numbered etc at some point. The Dvorak New World Symphony was #5 at one point, today of course it is #9.


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## MaxOctane (Oct 7, 2019)

I do think it's worth pointing out, for all the VI-C members who read this thread but are at different skill levels, that the Adler book (or Rimsky-Korsakov, etc) will not actually teach you how to take an unorchestrated piece (a piano sketch, a rough mockup, etc) and turn it into a fully-orchestrated score. Adler is not a how-to, but more of a reference guide. It will show you the range for bassoon, oboe, core anglais, euphonium, etc; it will tell you notations for various string bow strokes; and so on. 

So if you're at a level, e.g., where you have pretty good sounding works using ensemble libs like Albion One or Jaeger, then a studious read of Adler will show you how to translate that into something a real orchestra could play. And it could help you clean up some gunk in your work (like if your low strings or brass are too closely spaced). But it probably won't help you take a very rough or plain idea and turn it into something that sounds real and full (not by itself, at least).


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## mducharme (Oct 7, 2019)

I agree with that - the most important thing is that you clearly have the sound of each instrument in your head and can identify them quickly, and know what they can do. You really need to be able to "hear the orchestration" as you are writing - not simply write for piano with no idea of what you will do for orchestra and then orchestrate it somehow later.


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## Mishabou (Oct 7, 2019)

MaxOctane said:


> I do think it's worth pointing out, for all the VI-C members who read this thread but are at different skill levels, that the Adler book (or Rimsky-Korsakov, etc) will not actually teach you how to take an unorchestrated piece (a piano sketch, a rough mockup, etc) and turn it into a fully-orchestrated score. Adler is not a how-to, but more of a reference guide. It will show you the range for bassoon, oboe, core anglais, euphonium, etc; it will tell you notations for various string bow strokes; and so on.
> 
> So if you're at a level, e.g., where you have pretty good sounding works using ensemble libs like Albion One or Jaeger, then a studious read of Adler will show you how to translate that into something a real orchestra could play. And it could help you clean up some gunk in your work (like if your low strings or brass are too closely spaced). But it probably won't help you take a very rough or plain idea and turn it into something that sounds real and full (not by itself, at least).




What books/courses would you recommend for someone, with no prior orchestral experience, who writes piano sketch and want to turn it into a fully orchestrated score ?


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## JohnG (Oct 7, 2019)

yellowtone said:


> Can you clarify, do you feel the Adler book is good to read through as a guide to orchestration, or agree with others who say Adler is better as a reference guide? My post prior to this was in relation to the Joseph Wagner book (pdf that @mducharme linked to earlier in this thread), published 1959. I've only read a bit of it so far as I'm trying to find/listen to the example symphonies as I read, but while the English is a bit old the overall reading is very interesting to start. Just want to make sure I'm reading the right book(s) to learn this stuff. I plan to find a teacher in January once I've moved back to the US, but for now trying to read up.



I've read Adler all the way through, more than once. And it's also a good reference. I don't know Wagner at all.


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## Mornats (Oct 8, 2019)

Mishabou said:


> What books/courses would you recommend for someone, with no prior orchestral experience, who writes piano sketch and want to turn it into a fully orchestrated score ?



I found Christian Henson's video series that I mention in this thread here to be really useful. https://vi-control.net/community/th...s-orchestral-programming-series-advice.85634/

There'll be more, and more in-depth ones mentioned by others I'm sure but if you have half an hour spare, take a look at the first video.


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## Sears Poncho (Oct 8, 2019)

Mishabou said:


> What books/courses would you recommend for someone, with no prior orchestral experience, who writes piano sketch and want to turn it into a fully orchestrated score ?


I'll mention this one again. Pocket book on Orchestration

I think it would be invaluable to those with limited experience. 

Unsolicited advice for anybody: I'm a pro orchestrator, I've had hundreds performed by symphonies. There's a secret to it. I'm not supposed to tell anybody... but if everyone reading this gives me $1,000, I'll do it. Deal. Here goes, the biggest and best advice in the history of mankind:

Go to the symphony. 

A lot. Orchestras do free shows, pops shows, shows for kids, Fourth of July. Some have open rehearsals, people can attend for free. Watch live performances on YOutube if needed. Stream, blah blah. But go. Watch. See what it looks like. Smell what it smells like. Look at the timpanist, he has 3 kettles, not 87.  

Imagine this sentence. "Any good books on basketball? I wanna learn". It's the same. Going to a B-ball game is going to be kinda helpful.  Nothing wrong with the books of course, but one has to see an orchestra, frequently, to "get" the whole vibe. Strings play all the time. Others don't/can't. WInds and brass will die an agonizing death if they do. Watch the French horn hold high notes and turn red..then blue... then purple, and learn that writing long high notes for horn is all bad and stuff.

I'm always kinda shocked when people ask me about orchestration, some ask me for private lessons, and when I ask about attending the symphony it's a big fat "no". Some don't know who the conductor of their local symphony is. And it doesn't matter if it's the Berlin Phil or the local Civic Orchestra, both are valid.


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## bvaughn0402 (Oct 8, 2019)

This is AMAZING advice. Thank you...

I was actually debating subscribing to the Berliner Philharmoniker on AppleTV. It is a little pricey ($160+ for one year) ...

But, when I watched a preview the other day, I was shocked how MUCH I picked up (like you said). Like how there was one drummer (often)! I thought "wow, I should watch like 4-5 of these the next months ... I bet I'd pick up more than just a book!" And then there is your post!

I think I'll do the monthly subscription ($16). If I really benefit from it, I'll do their yearly one and save a little bit of money.


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## gh0stwrit3r (Oct 8, 2019)

My favorite book for orchestration is Principles of Orchestration by Rimsky Korsakov. Conrad Pope mentoined this one as the 'must read' book in one of his masterclasses. It's not too expensive to buy. You can read it also for free on the internet cause it belongs to the public domain.


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## Mornats (Oct 8, 2019)

Sears Poncho said:


> Go to the symphony.



Not sure if an amateur can back up a pro's words with any authority but as an amateur hobbyist, I found attending orchestral performances a staggeringly brilliant learning experience. First time I went I immediately said to myself that I needed a strings library with sections.

I've been to a few since and try and make mental notes. I'm going to try and sneak a notebook into the next one


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