# Best solo cello?



## pfmusic (Jun 8, 2017)

Hello,

I'm looking at buying a new solo cello library. For solo pieces to mixing with orchestra. I own saconni string quartet but never been happy with the cello sounds.

Currently, looking at Chris Hein solo cello. Is there anything better than this?

Thanks
Patrick


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 8, 2017)

Depends on what you want. For immediate gratification, don't go Hein, Emotional Cello will get you there quicker (though with far less flexibility).

However, if you know even the basics of engineering, the Hein is a one punch knockout, great instrument.


----------



## Kejero (Jun 8, 2017)

Virharmonic's Bohemian Cello is my go-to cello. The library is a work-in-progress, but easily covers 90% of my needs.

https://www.virharmonic.com/bohemian_cello


----------



## Quasar (Jun 8, 2017)

Cinesamples' Tina Guo Legato has a wonderful, warm tone and is already baked and ready to sound beautiful and polished out of the box, but is limited in terms of sonics and articulations. It's sort of a slower passage one-trick pony, but top shelf at what it does IMHO.

For more basic functionality & versatility, both the Blakus Cello by Embertone and the Trio Broz Solo Cello by Fluffy Audio are worth a look. What sounds better than what is of course pretty subjective, but between these three I feel like I have solo cello pretty well covered.


----------



## ghandizilla (Jun 8, 2017)

Tina Guo has been updated with Cinesamples' Adaptive Legato Engine.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 8, 2017)

We should have a solo cello shootout with the same musical phrase played by a number of different libraries.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 8, 2017)

Kejero said:


> Virharmonic's Bohemian Cello is my go-to cello. The library is a work-in-progress, but easily covers 90% of my needs.
> 
> https://www.virharmonic.com/bohemian_cello



I have E C and Adagio cellos has a very nice solo cello, 

But this virharmonic cello has really court my attention also the price, the mood and tone completely different from others.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 8, 2017)

novaburst said:


> Adagio cellos has a very nice solo cello,



I've been curious about that one. The only Adagio I was (vehemently) warned against was the Violin (I own and_* really*_ like the Viola and Bass).


----------



## Ultraxenon (Jun 8, 2017)

I use Virhamonic Cello and Tina Guo Cello most of the time, but i also use Cinestrings Solo Cello it has a warm beautiful sound and it is easier to fit in a mix compare to Virharmonic and Tina, but that could be just me They are all very good, but if i have to chose one i would go for Virharmonic. The tone is intimate, beautiful and a bit crispy. Virharmonic also gonna give us future expansions for the cello like they did with the violin(the violin is just outstanding) I think Virharmonic is a safe choice for a solo cello(more articulations is just around the corner) Adagio cello is also nice but is very different from the other librarys, i use Anthology so im not sure if there are some changes compare to Adagio cello.


----------



## sazema (Jun 8, 2017)

OT - Nocturne cello is nice and pleasant and my favorite. EW cello too.
Tina is good but to many room included to my taste.


----------



## OliverLee (Jun 8, 2017)

IMO the Hein is Best of the best.


----------



## kurtvanzo (Jun 8, 2017)

Chris Hein if you have complex lines and don't mind programming (or just like lots of detail/articulations), Emotional Cello if you'd rather have a tight studio sound, Tina Guo legato cello if you just want some flowing emotive lines (noting but sustaned legato), or Virharmoic Bohemien if you hate programming and just want to play (the Exp 1 should be a huge improvement when it comes and all updates are free to owners).

Just pick one that suits your needs best and has a good tone for your style of music. All four work very well (besides the TG having no shorts) and each goes on sale from time to time (except VB which will increase after the next update is released), so like many of us, you may end up with all four.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 8, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I've been curious about that one. The only Adagio I was (vehemently) warned against was the Violin (I own and_* really*_ like the Viola and Bass).



Well it still is hard work but I did a take with both E C and adagio cello just to hear the difference, the adagio won the character tone and growl, but its hard work to get the bow change to synchronize but once you do its a very pleasing cello,


----------



## dtcomposer (Jun 8, 2017)

I own the Emotional Cello, and Blakus from Embertone but I think I would probably buy the Chris Hein if I was to get another one. The Emotional Cello has about 80 articulations if you really dig in and combine everything in the sub-folders into a multi instrument. You have to do a little tinkering in Kontakt to get it to all play together, and then set up a Touch OSC template (or similar) for triggering. It's a lot of work, but in the end it is pretty formidable to have so many articulations at hand. It's almost too many at times, to be perfectly honest. I had to set up two tracks in Cubase to deal with all of the articulations. 

Whenever the Virharmonic guys finish their updates I think that will also be a really nice instrument. Right now I would say one of those 3 (Emotional cello, Hein, Virharmonic) is your best bet.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 8, 2017)

I got the solo cello that was included with the recent Fluffy Audio bundle deal ($99). Surprisingly, it is excellent.


----------



## pfmusic (Jun 8, 2017)

Hello everyone,

Many thanks for your thoughts and recommendations - will have a listen to all the libraries.

Much appreciated,
Cheers 

P.S I love this forum!!!


----------



## pfmusic (Jun 8, 2017)

The directors is looking for a mixture in style from Elgar to Satie - the tracks below was the vibe he's wanting for the film.


----------



## Rob Elliott (Jun 8, 2017)

If these are your temps - he may only be happy with 'live' - find a good player - get their 'rate' -- pass it along to the Director. If he/she goes cheap on you - then they 'own' part of the 'let down' of trying to pull this off with samples.


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 8, 2017)

Maybe SampleModeling's Cello with a Breath-Controller, putting in an expressive performance, and lots of controller automation, this might be an option, but nothing beats a real good Cello Player if you have the budget for that.


----------



## pfmusic (Jun 8, 2017)

Rob Elliott said:


> If these are your temps - he may only be happy with 'live' - find a good player - get their 'rate' -- pass it along to the Director. If he/she goes cheap on you - then they 'own' part of the 'let down' of trying to pull this off with samples.



Hi Rob,

I'm thinking the same too - nothing beats a live player 

Cheers for the feedback


----------



## Zhao Shen (Jun 8, 2017)

Just wait for Cinematic Solo Strings to come out. It should be happening within the month based on the estimates Alex has given us.


----------



## Fleer (Jun 8, 2017)

I'm quite fond of Embertone's and East West's Solo Cello.


----------



## Lotias (Jun 8, 2017)

For a performance like that, I can't really imagine anything but SampleModelling's cello doing the job, simply because it can play anything - as long as you understand each parameter and know how to program the performance you want.


----------



## Chris Hein (Jun 8, 2017)

pfmusic said:


> The directors is looking for a mixture in style from Elgar to Satie - the tracks below was the vibe he's wanting for the film.


----------



## constaneum (Jun 8, 2017)

I really have to say CH's Cello sounds pretty good from the demos and the product offers 2 cellos ! not 1 !! What i like about CH products especially the Viola are the wide ranges of articulations offered, the smoothest legato scripting and its tweaking flexibility, sound effects and etc (i think solo strings SFX are rarely sampled and bundled as part of the solo strings articulations). U guys should really check out CH's solo strings series.

p/s: CH !! I'm releasing an album featuring your viola and it's coming pretty soon. heheehe


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 8, 2017)

No one owns the spitfire's artisan cello? I've always wondered how good they are?


----------



## Rohann (Jun 8, 2017)

If you want something playable, Virharmonic's cello is amazing. I'm having a blast with the violin too -- you won't get a lot of fancy articulations (currently anyway, 2 more expansions coming) but for lead lines it's really hard to beat, especially from a playability standpoint.


----------



## pfmusic (Jun 8, 2017)

Thanks again for all your thoughts - much appreciated - lots to chew over


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jun 8, 2017)

As a cello player I would say that Tina Guo is pretty good but lacks a lot of features/articulations (vibrato control, bow change, stac, spic, legato speed, runs, etc etc) to be able to play any cello melody : try playing Bach preludes with it, that's just not possible.

Emotional Cello has a lot of these articulations but requires a lot of programming (I had so much controllers going on at the same time that it made Cubase display lagging) for an OK result. You can play Bach preludes with it but it still sounds odd.

I tried Embertone and Nocturne Cello but they didn't convince me (too robotic sound).


----------



## constaneum (Jun 9, 2017)

I personally owned Nocturne Cello but i find it rather disappointing compared to the Violin. The legato transition of the cello notes always has this loud "dub dub dub" noise which make its rather unusable. The rest of the articulations are ok though.


----------



## Rohann (Jun 9, 2017)

Mr Pringles said:


> As a cello player I would say that Tina Guo is pretty good but lacks a lot of features/articulations (vibrato control, bow change, stac, spic, legato speed, runs, etc etc) to be able to play any cello melody : try playing Bach preludes with it, that's just not possible.
> 
> Emotional Cello has a lot of these articulations but requires a lot of programming (I had so much controllers going on at the same time that it made Cubase display lagging) for an OK result. You can play Bach preludes with it but it still sounds odd.
> 
> I tried Embertone and Nocturne Cello but they didn't convince me (too robotic sound).


Would love to hear your opinion on Virharmonic's.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jun 9, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Would love to hear your opinion on Virharmonic's.


I haven't tried this one so I can only speak about the 1st demo on their website, and despite sounding robotic , the overall result sounds OK (ie not that bad). The problem is that it really feels like there are several cellos playing one after another. I listened to the 1st demo and you can hear the cello sound is not coming from a unique spot/source, as if they were recorded differently. That's why it feels (to me) like several different cellos are each playing one note.

Have you tried this library?


----------



## holywilly (Jun 9, 2017)

I use both Virharmonic's solo cello and VSL's solo cello, both sound good and expressive. 

VSL's solo cello is good for writing melodic lines, and Virharmonic's solo cello blends very well with string ensemble to provide extra bite.


----------



## C-Wave (Jun 9, 2017)

constaneum said:


> I personally owned Nocturne Cello but i find it rather disappointing compared to the Violin. The legato transition of the cello notes always has this loud "dub dub dub" noise which make its rather unusable. The rest of the articulations are ok though.


+1. I tried to raise this issue several times with their support but to no avail  So disappointing. Violin is ok though.


----------



## Pianolando (Jun 9, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


>



Is this CH solo strings? The Cello sounds incredible.


----------



## Rob (Jun 9, 2017)

as a comparison, I've played the incipit of the Elgar concerto with the swam cello... some pseudo stereo applied and a touch of random hall

www.robertosoggetti.com/Elgar-swamCello.mp3


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 9, 2017)

Rob said:


> as a comparison, I've played the incipit of the Elgar concerto with the swam cello... some pseudo stereo applied and a touch of random hall
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Elgar-swamCello.mp3



This sounds very, very good to my ears, in fact it sounds wonderful. The "crunch" of the bow on string and the solid tone of the G and C strings are AMAZING. This was not on my radar at all. Now I can't wait to get it.


----------



## Rob (Jun 9, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> This sounds very, very good to my ears, in fact it sounds wonderful. The "crunch" of the bow on string and the solid tone of the G and C strings are AMAZING. This was not on my radar at all. Now I can't wait to get it.



Paul, this was played in one pass, BUT using an Akai ewi usb controller... having a good controller is sort of a requirement with swam instruments.


----------



## Lassi Tani (Jun 9, 2017)

I'm not a cello expert, but in my opinion the swam cello sounds a bit robotic and thin, hard to explain why. And isn't the vibrato sometimes too fast in the example?

I would get Chris Hein Cello, if I would have the budget.


----------



## Chris Hein (Jun 9, 2017)

Pianolando said:


> Is this CH solo strings? The Cello sounds incredible.


Sure, exclusively CH-Solo Strings.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jun 9, 2017)

Rob said:


> as a comparison, I've played the incipit of the Elgar concerto with the swam cello... some pseudo stereo applied and a touch of random hall
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Elgar-swamCello.mp3


While not perfect, it indeed sounds good, especially if you played it "live" which would mean you can spend less time programming and more time composing


----------



## Christof (Jun 9, 2017)

https://www.thefilmscore.com/icello


----------



## Phillip (Jun 9, 2017)

Garritan Gofriller Cello


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 9, 2017)

Here is the VSL solo cello (full) playing the "Harry in Winter" theme. I used the Teldex MIRx reverb. the piano is just a Kontakt freebie. The VSL solo cello really sounds great to me in this kind of context. It is very difficult (for me at least) to get a controllable and convincing "crunch" as in the above Elgar clips. But for an emotional lyrical phrase, I love it.

https://app.box.com/s/5zx25bej3hkct3z6kblgxkvudohd7was (Harry in Winter VSL solo cello)


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 9, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Here is the VSL solo cello (full) playing the "Harry in Winter" theme. I used the Teldex MIRx reverb. the piano is just a Kontakt freebie. The VSL solo cello really sounds great to me in this kind of context. It is very difficult (for me at least) to get a controllable and convincing "crunch" as in the above Elgar clips. But for an emotional lyrical phrase, I love it.
> 
> https://app.box.com/s/5zx25bej3hkct3z6kblgxkvudohd7was (Harry in Winter VSL solo cello)



I like this song but why does VSL solo cello always sound like sibelius 6 playback to me :(

Do you work with logic pro? can you try using space designer instead? I just really want to find out why VSL string stuff always has that weird fake tone to my ears.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I like this song but why does VSL solo cello always sound like sibelius 6 playback to me :(
> 
> Do you work with logic pro? can you try using space designer instead? I just really want to find out why VSL string stuff always has that weird fake tone to my ears.



The MP3 was made in Cubase 8.5 with the MIRx Teldex reverb. I have never used Logic Pro. I have no explanation for why your ears hear something no one else hears. Perhaps you can post a sibelius 6 playback version and everyone can judge for themselves the quality of your hearing.


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I like this song but why does VSL solo cello always sound like sibelius 6 playback to me :(
> 
> Do you work with logic pro? can you try using space designer instead? I just really want to find out why VSL string stuff always has that weird fake tone to my ears.



Hehe... I blame their 'Silent Stage' for what you are hearing, that's why I'm looking forward to their Sychron Strings. Which I predict will sound a lot better, and more realistic than their 'Silent Stage' produced strings.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 9, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> The MP3 was made in Cubase 8.5 with the MIRx Teldex reverb. I have never used Logic Pro. I have no explanation for why your ears hear something no one else hears. Perhaps you can post a sibelius 6 playback version and everyone can judge for themselves the quality of your hearing.



trust me there are many who hear what I hear. Most of who can still hear frequencies up to 14k+ hz. I don't have sibelius 6 installed on my computer anymore since I don't write music with scores anymore, just directly play music into my DAW. But if I ever get back to using Sibelius 6 again i'll reproduce your melody on it


----------



## Rohann (Jun 9, 2017)

Mr Pringles said:


> I haven't tried this one so I can only speak about the 1st demo on their website, and despite sounding robotic , the overall result sounds OK (ie not that bad). The problem is that it really feels like there are several cellos playing one after another. I listened to the 1st demo and you can hear the cello sound is not coming from a unique spot/source, as if they were recorded differently. That's why it feels (to me) like several different cellos are each playing one note.
> 
> Have you tried this library?


Interesting. It sounds like one of the more realistic cello VI's out there to me, but then I'm not a cello player.

I've only played with the cello a bit, and the violin quite a bit more. The expansion has made it more realistic if played well as it adds portamento and fingered legato, among other things.
I think the key is being able to convince non-musicians, for the most part. I don't think I'll ever be convinced by a guitar sim, but the point isn't to fool me, it's to fool an audience of "regular" people.
The Chris Hein strings sound fantastic but they're miles out of my budget right now so they were never a serious consideration, at least for now.
One thing about the Virharmonic strings right now is despite a fantastic sound a few different playstyles, you won't really find obscure or special articulations or the like.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 9, 2017)

muziksculp said:


> Hehe... I blame their 'Silent Stage' for what you are hearing, that's why I'm looking forward to their Sychron Strings. Which I predict will sound a lot better, and more realistic than their 'Silent Stage' produced strings.



is "silent stage" the same as recording it "dry" ? because Chris Hein is also recorded "dry" and I can turn the built in reverb off, sound way better than anything strings of VSL.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> trust me there are many who hear what I hear. I don't have sibelius 6 installed on my computer anymore since I don't write music with scores anymore, just directly play music into my DAW. But if I ever get back to using Sibelius 6 again i'll reproduce your melody on it



The melody belongs to Patrick Doyle. It is "Harry in Winter" from one of the Harry Potter movies, I forget which one. The original was for full orchestra, this is my arrangement of just the first 1 minute of the cue. I posted a score in PDF form so that if anyone else would like a go at it, we can all compare the results.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> is "silent stage" the same as recording it "dry" ? because Chris Hein is also recorded "dry" and I can turn the built in reverb off, sound way better than anything strings of VSL.



I'm not a fan of VSL either, but I liked what Paul posted.

Re the original post, add some engineering polish to the Hein and you'll be rockin' imo.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 9, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm not a fan of VSL either, but I liked what Paul posted.
> 
> Re the original post, add some engineering polish to the Hein and you'll be rockin' imo.



Chris Hein. 100%


----------



## pfmusic (Jun 9, 2017)

Hello,

Great feedback about the best cello library out there. I've checked out all the suggested libraries and appreciate the recommendations.

Regarding a few of them, Cinematic Solo Strings sounds good but this film project has a deadline at the end of June - same applies to Virharmonic Cello too. I own Bohemian Violin which is good but the base level of the cello now is not what I'm looking for - I'm sure Exp. 1 will take it to another level.

Also, the director only has a set budget for me and a live player is not on the cards so I have to do the best with what I've got.

I'm going to go with Chris Hein Solo Cello which has the most options available at the moment. I don't mind learning how to use and program. 

Cheers again for all the feedback - this forum is amazing and love the support I've been given.

Thanks
Patrick


----------



## Chris Hein (Jun 9, 2017)

Good choice Patrick. 
Let me know if you need any help, especially when you have a deadline.

Chris Hein


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 9, 2017)

pfmusic said:


> Hello,
> 
> Great feedback about the best cello library out there. I've checked out all the suggested libraries and appreciate the recommendations.
> 
> ...



Then you're getting a freaking excellent library. Just be warned about the default reverb.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Jun 9, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Interesting. It sounds like one of the more realistic cello VI's out there to me, but then I'm not a cello player.


Don't get me wrong, the demo sounded good enough compared to 90% of the solo cello libraries I had the opportunity to listen to or try, but the one from Sample Modelling sounded a bit better to my ears.



Rohann said:


> I think the key is being able to convince non-musicians, for the most part. I don't think I'll ever be convinced by a guitar sim, but the point isn't to fool me, it's to fool an audience of "regular" people.


Exactly. I'm also a guitar player and even though every guitar sample libraries sound a bit fake to my ears, they still sound better than solo cello libraries 
You're right, the point is to fool your audience whoever they are.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 9, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Then you're getting a freaking excellent library. Just be warned about the default reverb.



Yep turn off the default reverb, both early reflection and the verb. For my chris Hein brass I use space designer. 2.9 sec concert hall setting Low passed at -6 dbs. Dry at -3dbs wet at -15dbs. Very easy to do, very realistic.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Yep turn off the default reverb, both early reflection and the verb. For my chris Hein brass I use space designer. 2.9 sec concert hall setting Low passed at -6 dbs. Dry at -3dbs wet at -15dbs. Very easy to do, very realistic.



Those are good settings. I go back and forth with QL Spaces, Revelation, and Valhalla Vintage (the last one might surprise some folks, it works great!).


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 9, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> Sure, exclusively CH-Solo Strings.



CH-Solo Strings Sounds Awesome, and I enjoyed the video as well.  

Thanks for sharing this,
Muziksculp


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 9, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> Those are good settings. I go back and forth with QL Spaces, Revelation, and Valhalla Vintage (the last one might surprise some folks, it works great!).



Valhalla is my favorite for electronic music. I actually tried it on chris Hein but found space designer to just work much better. Valhalla is still good though for Chris Hein tho


----------



## Rohann (Jun 9, 2017)

Mr Pringles said:


> Don't get me wrong, the demo sounded good enough compared to 90% of the solo cello libraries I had the opportunity to listen to or try, but the one from Sample Modelling sounded a bit better to my ears.


I'll have to check that one out.




> Exactly. I'm also a guitar player and even though every guitar sample libraries sound a bit fake to my ears, they still sound better than solo cello libraries
> You're right, the point is to fool your audience whoever they are.


Haha really? I have yet to find a guitar library that sounds anywhere near convincing.


----------



## Rob (Jun 9, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> The melody belongs to Patrick Doyle. It is "Harry in Winter" from one of the Harry Potter movies, I forget which one. The original was for full orchestra, this is my arrangement of just the first 1 minute of the cue. I posted a score in PDF form so that if anyone else would like a go at it, we can all compare the results.



I like the idea of a direct comparison between different cello libraries... here's my offering with the swam cello, let's hope others will join:

www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-swamCello.mp3


----------



## muziksculp (Jun 9, 2017)

Rob said:


> I like the idea of a direct comparison between different cello libraries... here's my offering with the swam cello, let's hope others will join:
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-swamCello.mp3



Sounds Great ! 

I'm a big fan of SWAM Instruments. They are very expressive. 

Thanks for sharing,
Muziksculp


----------



## Chris Hein (Jun 9, 2017)

Rob said:


> I like the idea of a direct comparison between different cello libraries... here's my offering with the swam cello, let's hope others will join:
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-swamCello.mp3


Cool, sounds great.
Would you like to share the MIDI file?

Chris Hein


----------



## Rob (Jun 9, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> Cool, sounds great.
> Would you like to share the MIDI file?
> 
> Chris Hein



Hi Chris, I'm in bed now, but tomorrow I can post the midi, if you like...

I think your instruments share some of the realtime playability with the samplemodeling/swam products...


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 9, 2017)

Rob said:


> I like the idea of a direct comparison between different cello libraries... here's my offering with the swam cello, let's hope others will join:
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-swamCello.mp3



Wonderful performance. Thanks for doing this.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 9, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> Cool, sounds great.
> Would you like to share the MIDI file?
> 
> Chris Hein



I should have included the MIDI file. As I was creating the VSL solo cello performance I changed the dynamics and phrasing to better match my own feel for this beautiful melody. But here is the MIDI, and I really look forward to hearing this with the CH Romantic cello!

https://app.box.com/s/345n6m6k7slfrgua671i53e8hkuasooq (Harry in Winter MIDI)


----------



## markleake (Jun 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> trust me there are many who hear what I hear. Most of who can still hear frequencies up to 14k+ hz. I don't have sibelius 6 installed on my computer anymore since I don't write music with scores anymore, just directly play music into my DAW. But if I ever get back to using Sibelius 6 again i'll reproduce your melody on it


I don't always agree with our friend @ctsai89 on everything, but on this one he has a point. To me the VSL example sounds very static, and I also hear some wierd stuff going on with the higher frequencies. I don't think it's only ctsai89 who hears these issues with some of the VSL instruments. Sorry to sound harsh, but if a real cello player sounded like that, I'd ask them to check what is wrong with their cello. I much prefer the swam cello example, even though that one is still not particulary great, in my opinion.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 9, 2017)

markleake said:


> I don't always agree with our friend @ctsai89 on everything, but on this one he has a point. To me the VSL example sounds very static, and I also hear some wierd stuff going on with the higher frequencies. I don't think it's only ctsai89 who hears these issues with some of the VSL instruments. Sorry to sound harsh, but if a real cello player sounded like that, I'd ask them to check what is wrong with their cello. I much prefer the swam cello example, even though that one is still not particulary great, in my opinion.



particularly, there were a few notes from the range of A3~A4 that just didn't sound quite like it was played by the same player nor played on the correct string. Good players will know that even if they had to play an ascending line with a few notes on different strings they will do as much as possible to make all those note's tones blend with each other.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 9, 2017)

Zhao Shen said:


> Just wait for Cinematic Solo Strings to come out. It should be happening within the month based on the estimates Alex has given us.



Still though, I wish he would add a knob or fader to control the legato speed as an option besides just letting velocity decide everything. Or at least make the velocity-decided-legato editable because the threshold is too high to trigger a fast legato. Something like what LASS where as fast legatos are at vel=50 would be and perfectly playable.


----------



## tack (Jun 9, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Still though, I wish he would add a knob or fader to control the legato speed as an option besides just letting velocity decide everything.


You might find this useful.

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/is-anyone-using-and-not-liking-css.58862/page-3#post-4040418


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 10, 2017)

Rob said:


> I like the idea of a direct comparison between different cello libraries... here's my offering with the swam cello, let's hope others will join:
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-swamCello.mp3


Then, once bohemian cello with expension 1 will be out, and unless someones else has done it, I will post a version with bohemian cello. Since for now only bow change legato is present it will create a different feel and phrasing althogether.

Well done btw with the swam cello!
The feeling and dynamics is there, but to me the overal tone and sound wants me to experiment with 'beefing' up the sound with harmonic enhancers, tape emulations, eq, and what not, but I will most likely be unsatisfied.
I had the swam viola but I couldn't make it "play music' in my creation process.

It may also depend on what you aim for with the end result. If your piece serves as a 'demo' for a director it will do I guess. Especially if it will be played by a real musician later on in the production process. Also all details for phrasing can be played and tested with the swam cello because its so versatile.
If it is meant as a piece of music to be part of released music for me the swam strings do not suffice.


----------



## Erik (Jun 10, 2017)

Herewith three small tracks with the SWAM cello in a very exposed setting. Bach (Prelude) and Fauré (Après un rève).


----------



## Rob (Jun 10, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> Then, once bohemian cello with expension 1 will be out, and unless someones else has done it, I will post a version with bohemian cello. Since for now only bow change legato is present it will create a different feel and phrasing althogether.
> 
> Well done btw with the swam cello!
> The feeling and dynamics is there, but to me the overal tone and sound wants me to experiment with 'beefing' up the sound with harmonic enhancers, tape emulations, eq, and what not, but I will most likely be unsatisfied.
> ...



Right, but:
1) we look for flaws, meaning we're not listening innocently, to the musical result. I believe if that was rhe case a good and purposeful performance would be more convincing for the client than a good timbre wrapped in a poor performance
2) I sincerely hope more users will post examples with different libraries, since words are just words until some more concrete examples are provided...
I don't think swam is the only library able to coax a good performance though, CH or Embertone are excellent candidates too, and others, but I'd like to listen to them


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 10, 2017)

Rob said:


> Right, but:
> 1) we look for flaws, meaning we're not listening innocently, to the musical result. I believe if that was rhe case a good and purposeful performance would be more convincing for the client than a good timbre wrapped in a poor performance
> 2) I sincerely hope more users will post examples with different libraries, since words are just words until some more concrete examples are provided...
> I don't think swam is the only library able to coax a good performance though, CH or Embertone are excellent candidates too, and others, but I'd like to listen to them


As a response Rob:
1) fully agree
2) here is something I have been able to get out of the current version bohemian cello


----------



## Rob (Jun 10, 2017)

the bohemian has a beautiful timbre... really lovely
comparing different music is difficult though, could we agree on a common passage and provide the same example in different interpretations?


----------



## Pianolando (Jun 10, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> Sure, exclusively CH-Solo Strings.


 Very cool. I honestly wonder if anyone could say with confidence that it is a sampled cello if they didn't know.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 10, 2017)

Rob said:


> the bohemian has a beautiful timbre... really lovely
> comparing different music is difficult though, could we agree on a common passage and provide the same example in different interpretations?



The bohemian cello is as mentioned currently only bow-change legato which, apart from its tone, will immediately show its limitations. Nonetheless it could be an interesting showcase of what it could and could not do in comparison with other libs, and once the update is out could be added to with the newer version.
May I suggest your MIDI file from Potter be available, or any other that the current members of this thread will want to use?

Add: I think that looking back in the thread @Paul T McGraw proposed this very idea... :D


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 10, 2017)

Rob said:


> Right, but:
> 1) we look for flaws, meaning we're not listening innocently, to the musical result. I believe if that was the case a good and purposeful performance would be more convincing for the client than a good timbre wrapped in a poor performance
> 2) I sincerely hope more users will post examples with different libraries, since words are just words until some more concrete examples are provided...
> I don't think swam is the only library able to coax a good performance though, CH or Embertone are excellent candidates too, and others, but I'd like to listen to them



I completely agree with both of your points above. As of this moment, I much prefer the Sample Modeling for material like the Elgar, and although I thought your performance of the "Harry in Winter" was brilliant, I honestly prefer the VSL solo cello for lyrical material. However, we are blessed to live in a time when we have an embarrassment of riches in sample libraries. 

But as you say, "words are just words" and the best way to compare is with a competent performance of the same musical example. I want to do the Elgar on the VSL solo cello but I know it will not be as good as yours.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 10, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> The bohemian cello is as mentioned currently only bow-change legato which, apart from its tone, will immediately show its limitations. Nonetheless it could be an interesting showcase of what it could and could not do in comparison with other libs, and once the update is out could be added to with the newer version.
> May I suggest your MIDI file from Potter be available, or any other that the current members of this thread will want to use?
> 
> Add: I think that looking back in the thread @Paul T McGraw proposed this very idea... :D



I previously posted the MIDI file, but here it is again. This is just raw MIDI data of notes only and does not include any of the CC data. I look forward to hearing this with the Bohemian cello, as it seems to have a beautiful tone.

https://app.box.com/s/345n6m6k7slfrgua671i53e8hkuasooq (Harry in Winter MIDI)


----------



## Rob (Jun 10, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> ...
> May I suggest your MIDI file from Potter be available, or any other that the current members of this thread will want to use?
> 
> Add: I think that looking back in the thread @Paul T McGraw proposed this very idea... :D



Paul has also posted the midi a few posts above... 

edit: he posted it at the same time


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 10, 2017)

Rob said:


> Paul has also posted the midi a few posts above...
> 
> edit: he posted it at the same time


Ah, got it! (I had a moment that is sometimes is refered to as "duh")

As soon as I have got something postworthy I will place it in this thread.
Till soon.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 10, 2017)

I am really happy that so many people have downloaded the "Harry in Winter" files, and I truly appreciate the PM's I have received about it.  In fact I was so pleased I decided to put a little more work into the performance and see if I could make it a bit better. I did not change the piano much, but I did put it into the same MIR Pro hall with the cello. And I changed from Teldex to the brand new MIR Pro Synchron which I think sounds just a bit clearer and cleaner. I changed some of the articulation choices for the VSL cello, and really emphasized the forte passage at the climax, I hope not too much. Here is the result.

https://app.box.com/s/5zx25bej3hkct3z6kblgxkvudohd7was (Harry in Winter solo cello v2)

Here is the final Midi File including all the changes I made as well as the CC data, etc.

https://app.box.com/s/345n6m6k7slfrgua671i53e8hkuasooq (Harry in Winter MIDI file final version)

Now I am going to attempt the Elgar, which I will hopefully not regret.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 10, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I am really happy that so many people have downloaded the "Harry in Winter" files, and I truly appreciate the PM's I have received about it.  In fact I was so pleased I decided to put a little more work into the performance and see if I could make it a bit better. I did not change the piano much, but I did put it into the same MIR Pro hall with the cello. And I changed from Teldex to the brand new MIR Pro Synchron which I think sounds just a bit clearer and cleaner. I changed some of the articulation choices for the VSL cello, and really emphasized the forte passage at the climax, I hope not too much. Here is the result.
> 
> https://app.box.com/s/5zx25bej3hkct3z6kblgxkvudohd7was (Harry in Winter solo cello v2)
> 
> ...



v2 much better actually. But if I didn't know it was a midi mockup I'd still instantly be able to tell it wasn't a real player performing it upon hearing those triplets (again the Eh Eh Eh tone). I believe with Chris Hein you would be able to get those notes to sound exactly the way you want/supposed to sound without much work relatively compared to VSL.

The Swam on the other hand had a tiny bit of synthyness to it as well but if no one told me it was a mockup I'd believe it was a real player performing it. It's very good.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 10, 2017)

Here is my attempt at the Elgar using the VSL solo cello. The piano is the Kontakt "The Grandeur". Both are placed within the MIR Pro Synchron Stage. 

https://app.box.com/s/wn051lbsqt6hf5xst9q1p6660rv1fv9r (Elgar with VSL solo cello)


----------



## tack (Jun 10, 2017)

One of the things that jumps out at me about the SM cello is the pace and steadiness of the vibrato. Could it be that the subtle inconsistencies in the vibrato implemented by a real player make such a difference? I wonder if adding some humanization to the vibrato CC curve would do anything useful.

On balance, though, the SM cello is the winner for me. The Bohemian sounded nice, but at least in the example on this thread I don't think it was playing anything I can't already do with Tina Guo, whose timbre is even better IMO. Unfortunately I'm not keen on the VSL cello at all.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 10, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Here is my attempt at the Elgar using the VSL solo cello. The piano is the Kontakt "The Grandeur". Both are placed within the MIR Pro Synchron Stage.
> 
> https://app.box.com/s/wn051lbsqt6hf5xst9q1p6660rv1fv9r (Elgar with VSL solo cello)



my ears.. plz lol. Need the separate the bottom 2 strings from the top 2 strings longer. Hold the first 2 note of the 4 note chord and roll it up, don't play them all together nor immediately roll up. 

There are also too many sudden unnatural dynamic dips and spikes, not sure if it's your programming or if it's the way the virtual instrument is programmed, I'm honestly trying to give VSL the benefit of doubt here


----------



## Rohann (Jun 10, 2017)

tack said:


> One of the things that jumps out at me about the SM cello is the pace and steadiness of the vibrato. Could it be that the subtle inconsistencies in the vibrato implemented by a real player make such a difference? I wonder if adding some humanization to the vibrato CC curve would do anything useful.
> 
> On balance, though, the SM cello is the winner for me. The Bohemian sounded nice, but at least in the example on this thread I don't think it was playing anything I can't already do with Tina Guo, whose timbre is even better IMO. Unfortunately I'm not keen on the VSL cello at all.


I think the benefit of the Bohemian series (especially with the expansion!) over Tina Guo (from what I hear anyway) is that they can do faster parts quite a bit more smoothly, but haven't tried Tina Guo myself.


----------



## agarner32 (Jun 10, 2017)

Rohann said:


> I think the benefit of the Bohemian series (especially with the expansion!) over Tina Guo (from what I hear anyway) is that they can do faster parts quite a bit more smoothly, but haven't tried Tina Guo myself.


That's exactly right. I love the Tina Guo for slow lines - it sounds beautiful, but it's pretty limiting for me.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Jun 11, 2017)

and here is a rendering of the potter piece with the bohemian cello.



again, take into account that the currently available legato is only "bow change", so a real flowing line is not yet easy to achieve.

PS: now on the soundcloud version I hear the piano somewhat louder then the non-soundcloud version. I leave it for now


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 11, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> and here is a rendering of the potter piece with the bohemian cello.
> 
> @Rob and @Paul T McGraw what do your ears tell you?
> 
> ...




A very good tone, and I liked your changes to the piano part. I think the Bohemian Cello really needs true legato. You did a very good job of creating an emotional performance considering you don't have the true legato. Personally, and it is just my opinion, I have yet to hear any instrument that can beat the VSL cello for a smooth and natural sounding legato.


----------



## tack (Jun 11, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I think the Bohemian Cello really needs true legato.


To be clear, the Bohemian does have true legato, but only legato bowing was sampled in the initial release. Same-bow legato (elsewhere called "fingered legato") is coming later. Both of these legato techniques do seem to be important in creating musical mockups, but I wouldn't say one is any more "true" than the other.


----------



## Chris Hein (Jun 12, 2017)

Here is a version with both of the CH-Solo Cello.
Its played almost starlight out of the box with the default reverb,
using a single articulation: "Dynamic Expression Short"
No x-fade or any other CC's used, just adjusted the velocities a little bit.
Its all fingered legato, just a subtle portamento on three notes.

*CH-Romantic Cello:*



*CH-Modern Cello:*


A word on bow change legato:
Actually there is no legato on a bow change.
When a string player changes the bow direction, the tone is completely interrupted and starts with a new bow noise on the next note.
Since every sampled string tone starts with a bow noise, simulating a bow change is nothing but playing a new note with no overlap.
I experimented a lot with Naomi, my violin player and we found that here is actually no bow change legato transition to record.

However, playing a bow change on the same note can be challenging, because its hard to play on a keyboard without a gap.
Thats why I introduced a Hotkey to repeat the last note without any gap.
But it can also easily be done in the DAW editor.

Chris Hein


----------



## Rob (Jun 12, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> ...
> A word on bow change legato:
> Actually there is no legato on a bow change.
> When a string player changes the bow direction, the tone is completely interrupted and starts with a new bow noise on the next note.
> ...



this! I've been discussing this topic for a long time... unless something since my days in school have changed, the term "bow change legato" simply doesn't exist, it's an invention of some developer. The only legato is when notes are played in one bow. A good string player will then be able to cover the passage between different bowings but that's something else... thank you Chris for having set this straight


----------



## Virharmonic (Jun 12, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> A word on bow change legato:
> Actually there is no legato on a bow change.
> When a string player changes the bow direction, the tone is completely interrupted and starts with a new bow noise on the next note.
> Since every sampled string tone starts with a bow noise, simulating a bow change is nothing but playing a new note with no overlap.
> ...






Rob said:


> this! I've been discussing this topic for a long time... unless something since my days in school have changed, the term "bow change legato" simply doesn't exist, it's an invention of some developer. The only legato is when notes are played in one bow. A good string player will then be able to cover the passage between different bowings but that's something else... thank you Chris for having set this straight



Hi Rob and Chris - I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you both on this wholeheartedly - to say that there is nothing worth capturing happening between the bow change is to me like saying that Double Tongue on Brass is pointless to capture as you can simply catch the first note and then have enough round robins or saying that Crescendos on Up bow sound exactly the same as Crescendos on Down Bow.

As a violinist and violist I can attest to my perception that there are nuances, wrist motion change as well as bow pressure variation and that is before I even get to position changing and resonance spill over during the bow change. One can argue about the benefits of spending endless hours of recording, cutting and processing these in chromatic technique and with all 12 up down intervals, but I strongly believe that it is required for a sample based library like ours and I believe that CineSamples and few others have seen that sampling bow change is relevant, so I wouldn't call it pointless and Tack was 100% correct in his statement as far as we view sampling in Soul Capture series.

In the old day we had only few mbs of ram to play with, so we had to restrict things based on their importance and slurred legato was classed at the time as higher priority (lets be honest even portamento wasn't a thing in the old days and not adding portamento today is like taking a first born child away  ), but now we don't have those restrictions, we can go deeper into sampling then ever before and we at Virharmonic will carry on and pioneer deepsampling and it's true meaning by capturing what we can and when we see benefits to doing so 

Warm Regards

Ondrej Pochyly
Head Developer


----------



## Chris Hein (Jun 12, 2017)

I'd like to make clear that the word about bow change is my personal opinion based on my experiments!
Others way think in a different way about bow change legato and how to sample it.


Chris Hein


----------



## Rob (Jun 12, 2017)

I never said there's nothing that can be sampled between bows, all I'm saying is what Adler in his Study of Orchestration, page 21, is saying:

"2. Whenever a passage is slurred, all notes under that slur are performed on one bow, meaning all are played in one direction, This is called legato playing..."

this is how I've been taught.


----------



## Virharmonic (Jun 12, 2017)

Rob said:


> I never said there's nothing that can be sampled between bows, all I'm saying is what Adler in his Study of Orchestration, page 21, is saying:
> 
> "2. Whenever a passage is slurred, all notes under that slur are performed on one bow, meaning all are played in one direction, This is called legato playing..."
> 
> this is how I've been taught.



I see what you meant Rob. I thought that you were talking about sampling and not general orchestration rules and in my opinion "Sampling Legato" is anything where we sample intervals . Also please keep in mind that I was responding to 2 statements and as you have agreed with Chris I though you have agreed with the whole statement which was based around sampling to my understanding.

However even in general technique description we keep seeing that certain bowchanges or ports on Bow change gets sometimes referred to as Bow Changed legato - http://www.violinonline.com/bowstrokes.htm

I think that terms are generally changing but if somebody writes me a 20second long bow in mf I will have to do bow changed legato and extend that note through a really smooth bow change and deliver him a Bow changed legato. I could use more examples in modern music where nothing else but bow changed legato is possible, however that is theoretical discussion and we all know that music notation and terminology is ever evolving, varying from country to country and whether we agree with all the changes is always dependent on each person. I personally think that one of the reasons the use of the word Legato is spreading to other techniques is also because of sampling too, but that is a topic for another thread in itself 

Anyhow - we really don't want to derail this thread and that is also why we generally don't get involved in Sample talk - We came to simply disagree with a statement made which could confuse our users, but please feel free to PM us or email us if you wish to discuss this topic further, however we won't be derailing this thread any further with further comments. (apologies to the OP)

PS I was taught same as you Rob (although some time has passed since my school days :D ), but in Sampling terms in Virharmonic we simply class anything that is sampled in intervals as Legatos - I can't think of any better way to describe it to our users


----------



## N.Caffrey (Jun 12, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> my ears.. plz lol. Need the separate the bottom 2 strings from the top 2 strings longer. Hold the first 2 note of the 4 note chord and roll it up, don't play them all together nor immediately roll up.
> 
> There are also too many sudden unnatural dynamic dips and spikes, not sure if it's your programming or if it's the way the virtual instrument is programmed, I'm honestly trying to give VSL the benefit of doubt here


Sibelius sounds way better


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 12, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> Here is a version with both of the CH-Solo Cello.
> Its played almost starlight out of the box with the default reverb,
> using a single articulation: "Dynamic Expression Short"
> No x-fade or any other CC's used, just adjusted the velocities a little bit.
> ...




Wow, I love the sound of the "Modern Cello." You have captured a very rich and nuanced timbre. Thank you so much for doing this. And I am very impressed that you had to do so little with the raw MIDI data. Of the examples I have heard in this thread, the CH Modern Cello is the only one I have heard that comes close to the emotional quality of the VSL solo cello to my ears. It is of course a matter of personal taste, but although the VSL solo cello is still my favorite, the CH Modern Cello would be a very close second. And with the use of crossfade and some articulation changes, I speculate that I could create a performance with the CH modern cello that I might like (as a matter of personal taste) even more than the VSL. 

Your willingness to interact with your customers on this forum, and make available a directly comparable demo is exceptional, and commendable. I had been toying with buying some CH products, and now I am certain I will go ahead and do so. I hope other members of this forum will do so as well in order to support your efforts to bring exciting and high quality instruments to market.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 12, 2017)

@Chris Hein although I know that for the moment wet samples seem to be far more popular on this forum than dry samples, I appreciate the fact that CH products are sampled dry. This means I can very easily put them into MIR Pro with my VSL samples and have all of the instruments in the "same room." It also means I will not have to buy a slave computer to use your products!


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 12, 2017)

Rob said:


> this! I've been discussing this topic for a long time... unless something since my days in school have changed, the term "bow change legato" simply doesn't exist, it's an invention of some developer. The only legato is when notes are played in one bow. A good string player will then be able to cover the passage between different bowings but that's something else... thank you Chris for having set this straight



I graduated with a degree in music way back in 1976. My cello professor, Peter Spurbeck, (both a marvelous human and outstanding musician) taught me exactly as you have described.

@Rob of the examples in this thread your mix is by far the best mixing and mastering to my ears. If you would not mind sharing, what did you do for spatialization and dynamics? You have a very nice sounding reverb, could it be Altiverb? And I am guessing you used either compression or a maximizer or both. Would you mind sharing what you used?


----------



## Rob (Jun 12, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I graduated with a degree in music way back in 1976. My cello professor, Peter Spurbeck, (both a marvelous human and outstanding musician) taught me exactly as you have described.
> 
> @Rob of the examples in this thread your mix is by far the best mixing and mastering to my ears. If you would not mind sharing, what did you do for spatialization and dynamics? You have a very nice sounding reverb, could it be Altiverb? And I am guessing you used either compression or a maximizer or both. Would you mind sharing what you used?



thanks Paul, here are the settings I used...
set an fx bus where there's an instance of pcm lexicon hall, "large hall " preset, 20ms predelay - 2.8 sec tail
both piano and cello send to this bus (piano more than cello)
on the cello track, a psp plugin called "pseudostereo", to give it 3dimensionality, insert the lexi "room", "ambience" preset at 32% - 0,8 sec long
anyway, every library respond differently to reverb and filtering so don't think this information can really be helpful...


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 12, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Wow, I love the sound of the "Modern Cello." You have captured a very rich and nuanced timbre. Thank you so much for doing this. And I am very impressed that you had to do so little with the raw MIDI data. Of the examples I have heard in this thread, the CH Modern Cello is the only one I have heard that comes close to the emotional quality of the VSL solo cello to my ears. It is of course a matter of personal taste, but although the VSL solo cello is still my favorite, the CH Modern Cello would be a very close second. And with the use of crossfade and some articulation changes, I speculate that I could create a performance with the CH modern cello that I might like (as a matter of personal taste) even more than the VSL.
> 
> Your willingness to interact with your customers on this forum, and make available a directly comparable demo is exceptional, and commendable. I had been toying with buying some CH products, and now I am certain I will go ahead and do so. I hope other members of this forum will do so as well in order to support your efforts to bring exciting and high quality instruments to market.



You would be making a huge upgrade going from VSL solo cello ---> Chris Hein solo (any) string(s). And this is an under-statement. Glad you're finally seeing the light here.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 12, 2017)

Rob said:


> between different bowings



I am noob, so don't mind me .... but is not this what the term bow change means, different tension, different angle, a little bit more flat with the bow.


----------



## Rob (Jun 12, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I am noob, so don't mind me .... but is not this what the term bow change means, different tension, different angle, a little bit more flat with the bow.



I was referring to the moment between up and down bow or vice-versa. That's bow change for me...


----------



## novaburst (Jun 12, 2017)

Rob said:


> I was referring to the moment between up and down bow or vice-versa. That's bow change for me...


ok so just to clarify up down, or tension, angle , with out taking the bow off the strings is bow change.

but removing the bow from the strings to play another note weather up down or the same direction is this called re bow


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 12, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> You would be making a huge upgrade going from VSL solo cello ---> Chris Hein solo (any) string(s). And this is an under-statement. Glad you're finally seeing the light here.



You are mistaken, I have not "seen the light" and I continue to love the VSL solo cello. I believe the CH modern cello has a great timbre and a lot of potential, but I still prefer my own performance using the VSL solo cello as the best of the "Harry in Winter" demos that I have heard thus far, and that is what I said in my post. I do not understand your hatred towards VSL products, but it seems to go far beyond a matter of personal preferences. Whatever your motives, please do not ascribe to me opinions that I do not hold.

The CH product I am purchasing first is the CH Orchestral Brass, but I think anyone who decided to purchase the CH Solo Strings is probably going to be happy with the purchase.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 12, 2017)

novaburst said:


> ok so just to clarify up down, or tension, angle , with out taking the bow off the strings is bow change.
> 
> but removing the bow from the strings to play another note weather up down or the same direction is this called re bow



A re-bow means changing bow direction but playing the same note. Taking the bow completely off the strings would be a spiccato bowing. The use of the bow (bowing technique) is not easy to master, and there are lots of ways to do things. The performer will decide on the best bowing technique to express the musical idea. If the composer creates a musical line under one slur mark (indicating legato) that can not be artfully performed with one bow, the performer will devise the best place to change bow direction and try to make it as smooth as possible.


----------



## tack (Jun 12, 2017)

When I see string players refer to techniques to play legato during bow changes (such as Ondrej above or this violinist), as a non string player I feel compelled to take them at their word that the phenomenon exists, and it's indeed possible to play a legato phrase while changing bows. Sure, this will _sound_ different than changing notes while on the same bow, but then that's exactly the point of the discussion in the context of sampling.

Seeing reputable folks like Rob and Chris say there is no such thing as legato bowing, contradicting other string players, is obviously confusing for a neophyte like me. Regardless, I think we can all agree that it comes down to semantics, and regardless of what you _call_ it, there are passages where notes are intended to be connected but yet require a bow change due to the constraints of the physical world. Given that, there are nuances worth sampling during bow transitions that enhance the realism of a virtual performance, wouldn't we all agree?


----------



## robgb (Jun 12, 2017)

pfmusic said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm looking at buying a new solo cello library.


There is no best.


----------



## Flaneurette (Jun 12, 2017)

Very interesting thread.

I am trying to piece together a kind of small chamber orchestra /ensemble from different libraries, as I am starting to work on songs since of late. In the same vein as this:



So I am very interested in good solo libs. If anyone has a good suggestion, would love to hear it. If anyone knows what has been used in this song, it would be nice to know. But I think it is recorded in the studio. At 3:59 I can hear a hint of MIDI orchestration, strange bowing, but it's difficult to tell...


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 12, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> You are mistaken, I have not "seen the light" and I continue to love the VSL solo cello. I believe the CH modern cello has a great timbre and a lot of potential, but I still prefer my own performance using the VSL solo cello as the best of the "Harry in Winter" demos that I have heard thus far, and that is what I said in my post. I do not understand your hatred towards VSL products, but it seems to go far beyond a matter of personal preferences. Whatever your motives, please do not ascribe to me opinions that I do not hold.
> 
> The CH product I am purchasing first is the CH Orchestral Brass, but I think anyone who decided to purchase the CH Solo Strings is probably going to be happy with the purchase.



alright sure, yours performance using VSL solo cello was the best. ok. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## Chris Hein (Jun 13, 2017)

tack said:


> When I see string players refer to techniques to play legato during bow changes (such as Ondrej above or this violinist), as a non string player I feel compelled to take them at their word that the phenomenon exists, and it's indeed possible to play a legato phrase while changing bows. Sure, this will _sound_ different than changing notes while on the same bow, but then that's exactly the point of the discussion in the context of sampling.
> 
> Seeing reputable folks like Rob and Chris say there is no such thing as legato bowing, contradicting other string players, is obviously confusing for a neophyte like me. Regardless, I think we can all agree that it comes down to semantics, and regardless of what you _call_ it, there are passages where notes are intended to be connected but yet require a bow change due to the constraints of the physical world. Given that, there are nuances worth sampling during bow transitions that enhance the realism of a virtual performance, wouldn't we all agree?


Maybe "transition" is a better word than "legato".
Of course there is something happening between two notes played with a bow change.
In the sample world, the word legato is often used for the connection between two notes, even if its the same note.
On a bow change I wouldn't say its legato, but its an audible transition.
The bow, and with it the sound, stops completely and starts again.
But then its a question bow speed and pressure... again, a million different sounds.
A string player who repeats a note typically does a little fade by lowering the speed shortly before the bow change.
During a bow change on a sustained note, he would try to avoid the audile change by holding the same speed/volume before and after the change.

Ondrej says its worth to sample that transition when the bow changes direction.
Thats great and I have full respect that he goes into so much detail.
I just think its not worth to do that work, also because I think this has to be done for all dynamics and all articulations individually.
So I say the bow noise of the next note is doing that fine. At least I didn't find a way to program a convincing transition here.

But thats just two different approaches on the same thing and its great to have different ways of handling an instrument.
I'm always willing to learn from others.

BTW, the same bow change is happening during a long sustained note.
The louder and higher the note, the more bow changes are needed to hold for the same time.
E.g. is you want to hold a note for 8 sec. on a violin, only the lowest and softest notes can e played with one bow.
The high and loud notes on a violin require a bow change almost every second.
However, the cello can play much longer notes without a bow change.

A string player usually tries to avoid a bow change during a sustained note.
If possible, we would get softer and holds the bow until the next note or next beat/bar.
But as always, it depends on the composition.

Chris Hein


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 13, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> The CH product I am purchasing first is the CH Orchestral Brass, but I think anyone who decided to purchase the CH Solo Strings is probably going to be happy with the purchase.



That's a bundle that had me writing specifically for it right off the bat, mostly because the instruments charmed me from the start. I also knew at the time of sale that it took some engineering polish to really bring out the library, and felt happily challenged.

In the end I couldn't have been happier with those instruments, and now will once again irritatingly reiterate my desire for a *Hein Tuba/Wagner Tuba* library.


----------



## novaburst (Jun 13, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> You are mistaken, I have not "seen the light" and I continue to love the VSL solo cello.



+ 1 keep doing and composing with what ever library you want @Paul T McGraw your work and compersition are very well done, esp your VSL collection.

I for one have learned a lot from your post and composition , great teacher, great composer. Don't stop


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 13, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> That's a bundle that had me writing specifically for it right off the bat, mostly because the instruments charmed me from the start. I also knew at the time of sale that it took some engineering polish to really bring out the library, and felt happily challenged.
> 
> In the end I couldn't have been happier with those instruments, and now will once again irritatingly reiterate my desire for a *Hein Tuba/Wagner Tuba* library.



Hein symphonic strings though


----------



## pfmusic (Jun 13, 2017)

Chris Hein said:


> Good choice Patrick.
> Let me know if you need any help, especially when you have a deadline.
> 
> Chris Hein



Hi Chris,

Thanks very much. That's very kind of you.

Just bought Solo Cello - downloading as I type this.

Looking forward to playing with this

Cheers from Bonnie Scotland

Patrick


----------



## pfmusic (Jun 13, 2017)

Thanks for everyones thoughts about solo cello. Interesting to hear all the varied opinions regarding this.

Just bought Chris Hein Solo Cello 

Cheers to everyone at VI-C


----------



## Alatar (Jun 13, 2017)

tack said:


> When I see string players refer to techniques to play legato during bow changes (such as Ondrej above or this violinist), as a non string player I feel compelled to take them at their word that the phenomenon exists, and it's indeed possible to play a legato phrase while changing bows. Sure, this will _sound_ different than changing notes while on the same bow, but then that's exactly the point of the discussion in the context of sampling.



Well, I have been learning to play the Cello for one year now. So I am hardly an expert. But what I know: 
You can make very different bow changes. They can be very hard and abrupt, or very fluent. But even the fluent ones are not quite like legato, I would say. 
Either way: it would surely be great to sample all the different bow change varieties. But I guess that would be a *lot* of work


----------



## eli0s (Jun 13, 2017)

Here is an other rendering of the SWAM (Sample Modeling) Cello. It doesn't even come close to @Rob 's performance, but it's here for what it's worth... 

http://www.eli0s.com/Tests/Harry in Winter.mp3

I have to agree that other sample libraries might have superior tone, but the SWAM Cello, in my opinion, is unparalleled when it comes to expressiveness... And the more you fiddle with it, the better the sound/performance you can get out from it.

I don't want to sound negative here, and with all due respect to the user that argues in support for the VSL cello, but I also have to say it doesn't sound good... And I don't speak about the sound/tone, I just hear so many disconnected notes and unnatural volume/timbre changes. I would have piked this up as a midi instrument from a mile away (using headphones, I know, it's contradictory to the previous statement)


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 13, 2017)

eli0s said:


> Here is an other rendering of the SWAM (Sample Modeling) Cello. It doesn't even come close to @Rob 's performance, but it's here for what it's worth...
> 
> http://www.eli0s.com/Tests/Harry in Winter.mp3
> 
> ...



Never be afraid to judge/negatively speak with your voice of reason. If there were a rule that prevents everyone from pointing out a library for its bad sound then no one who comes to this forum seeking for opinions would know which libraries are to avoid. Imagine what it would be like in the real world where no one wants/allowed to criticize anyone for anything: no one learns to do better and nothing will get better if we all just sugar coat all day/night.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 13, 2017)

@eli0s and wow, your mockup using SWAM cello. I can actually feel like I am playing that melody on my cello exactly the way you made it perform. 

viva la SWAM and CH!


----------



## Lassi Tani (Jun 15, 2017)

eli0s said:


> Here is an other rendering of the SWAM (Sample Modeling) Cello. It doesn't even come close to @Rob 's performance, but it's here for what it's worth...
> 
> http://www.eli0s.com/Tests/Harry in Winter.mp3
> 
> ...



I like what you did with the vibrato. Feels natural. You're using it, when needed, not for every note played. Previously I was talking about SWAM cello sounding robotic, but I'm not hearing it in your mockup. Great job!


----------



## Phillip (Jun 15, 2017)

VSL can sound good, but what a disgusting workflow - note by note editing, massaging, Always the same vibrato..... I'm not an accountant! Sample Modeling and SWAM all the way - life is too short.


----------



## eli0s (Jun 15, 2017)

@ctsai89 , @sekkosiki , Thanks guys 

An other "problem" these instruments have is that each time I listen to a performance I want to change/improve it! It looks like there is no end to this, you can spend hours upon hours fiddling with small details, only to listen again tomorrow and feel like wanting to make an other interpretation of the line... Because you can!!!


----------



## novaburst (Jun 15, 2017)

Phillip said:


> life is too short



Not if your into God, but I guess each to there own ways ........ok where was we. Arh yes solo cellos.


----------



## tack (Jun 15, 2017)

As a devout Pastafarian, with the grace of his Noodly Appendage, I do eagerly await spending eternity next to the Beer Volcano and Stripper Factory. Of course there are no sample libraries in this afterlife, but after having my mind reprogrammed to not be unhappy about all the earthly things that would make me unhappy under any other circumstance (and consequently not actually being _me_ any longer), I won't miss them. Also, beer and strippers.

Oh wait, where were we. Look, I've completely derailed this thread but it's ok, I'm now about to dissolve my transgressions: back to solo cellos!


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 15, 2017)

tack said:


> As a devout Pastafarian, with the grace of his Noodly Appendage, I do eagerly await spending eternity next to the Beer Volcano and Stripper Factory. Of course there are no sample libraries in this afterlife, but after having my mind reprogrammed to not be unhappy about all the earthly things that would make me unhappy under any other circumstance (and consequently not actually being _me_ any longer), I won't miss them. Also, beer and strippers.
> 
> Oh wait, where were we. Look, I've completely derailed this thread but it's ok, I'm now about to dissolve my transgressions: back to solo cellos!



As the spiritual descendant of Howard the Duck, I find the world to be quite a rocking place and try not to judge others and things.

But, when my duckbill relic starts making its mystical rounds, I'm glad I have my Emotional Cello to provide the soundtrack!


----------



## novaburst (Jun 15, 2017)

tack said:


> Of course there are no sample libraries in this afterlife,



What no samples in the after life, your kidding right, oh no please tell me you joking.......


----------



## noises on (Jun 15, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> As the spiritual descendant of Howard the Duck, I find the world to be quite a rocking place and try not to judge others and things.
> 
> But, when my duckbill relic starts making its mystical rounds, I'm glad I have my Emotional Cello to provide the soundtrack!


Exciting news for us Subtones fanboys. http://vi-control.net/community/thr...iolin-and-viola-in-august-at-long-last.62708/


----------



## Rob (Jun 16, 2017)

and here's a different perspective with the VSL cello (SE edition alas)... closer and cleaner

www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-VslCello.mp3


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 16, 2017)

Rob said:


> and here's a different perspective with the VSL cello (SE edition alas)... closer and cleaner
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-VslCello.mp3



Sounds really great. You are very good with mixing and mastering. I didn't want it to end. I am thinking I need to really dial it back on the reverb in this and in my future mixes. Was this the same general setup you used previously? I did miss the dynamics of my version, but I prefer your mix by far.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 16, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Sounds really great. You are very good with mixing and mastering. I didn't want it to end. I am thinking I need to really dial it back on the reverb in this and in my future mixes. Was this the same general setup you used previously? I did miss the dynamics of my version, but I prefer your mix by far.



I'm with Paul.


----------



## Rob (Jun 16, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Sounds really great. You are very good with mixing and mastering. I didn't want it to end. I am thinking I need to really dial it back on the reverb in this and in my future mixes. Was this the same general setup you used previously? I did miss the dynamics of my version, but I prefer your mix by far.



Thanks Paul... our performances reflect our musical vision, then obviously each of us finds his version better (I mean here musically better, not from a mixing point of view)... I find it unavoidable. As an example, besides being too far in the hall I find your cello version a bit lacking in expression, ie the way each note participates to the meaning of the phrase. It sounds indifferent to me... like someone playing but not putting his heart in the music. As said, I think we can't avoid this, and it's in the end the beauty of music, where each musician expresses his own vision and taste.
as for reverb etc. yes, same setting as with the swam. Basically, the same midi simply assigned to the cello legato patch...


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 16, 2017)

Rob said:


> Thanks Paul... our performances reflect our musical vision, then obviously each of us finds his version better (I mean here musically better, not from a mixing point of view)... I find it unavoidable. . . . As said, I think we can't avoid this, and it's in the end the beauty of music, where each musician expresses his own vision and taste.



Yes, I completely agree. And since we pour out our hearts into our music, we can not understand how others can not feel what we feel. Perhaps the truly great masters are simply the musicians who are not only technically brilliant, but also capable of emoting in a way that connects with more listeners.

In my youth, Rostropovich was considered by most the greatest cellist in the world. I could not (and still cannot) appreciate his performances, though I acknowledge his technical mastery. But I can fully appreciate Yo Yo Ma both technically and musically.


----------



## Rob (Jun 16, 2017)

and I agree on Rostropovich


----------



## Michael Antrum (Jun 16, 2017)

eli0s said:


> An other "problem" these instruments have is that each time I listen to a performance I want to change/improve it! It looks like there is no end to this, you can spend hours upon hours fiddling with small details, only to listen again tomorrow and feel like wanting to make an other interpretation of the line... Because you can!!!



Just like playing the real thing. One more take - It'll be better !


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 16, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Yes, I completely agree. And since we pour out our hearts into our music, we can not understand how others can not feel what we feel. Perhaps the truly great masters are simply the musicians who are not only technically brilliant, but also capable of emoting in a way that connects with more listeners.
> 
> In my youth, Rostropovich was considered by most the greatest cellist in the world. I could not (and still cannot) appreciate his performances, though I acknowledge his technical mastery. But I can fully appreciate Yo Yo Ma both technically and musically.



I would say Rostropovich was the perfect balance between musical and technical mastery. If your looking for true technical mastery then you'd look no further than Daniel Shafran/Piatigorsky. Yo Yo Ma's a bit overrated in both aspects (only my opinion)

My current favorite for musical mastery is Truls Mork.

But one guy that stands out from the rest of the cellists living today for me is this guy:



But obviously there are many that can't appreciate his way of playing.

So as @Rob states, we all have our own vision of how music needs to played.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 16, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I would say Rostropovich was the perfect balance between musical and technical mastery. If your looking for true technical mastery then you'd look no further than Daniel Shafran/Piatigorsky. Yo Yo Ma's a bit overrated in both aspects (only my opinion)
> 
> My current favorite for musical mastery is Truls Mork.
> 
> But one guy that stands out from the rest of the cellists living today for me is this guy:




I'm a fan of Rostropovich (not so much Yo-Yo). I happen to also love that piece, and am grateful for the introduction to this (for me) new player!!!


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 16, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'm a fan of Rostropovich (not so much Yo-Yo). I happen to also love that piece, and am grateful for the introduction to this (for me) new player!!!



Like I always say there's nothing Scriabin appreciates Wagner wouldn't (and you know I'm at least half serious)


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 16, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I would say Rostropovich was the perfect balance between musical and technical mastery. If your looking for true technical mastery then you'd look no further than Daniel Shafran/Piatigorsky. Yo Yo Ma's a bit overrated in both aspects (only my opinion)
> 
> My current favorite for musical mastery is Truls Mork.
> 
> ...




I have no interest in a big argument, but I find this performance of one of the greatest piece of music every written to be ugly and pseudo theatrical, almost to the point of being comical. I can think of no other words to describe it. I could only cringe through about half of it before I gave up and turned it off. So based on this, you and I will probably never agree on much of anything regarding music. But to each his own.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 16, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I have no interest in a big argument, but I find this performance of one of the greatest piece of music every written to be ugly and pseudo theatrical, almost to the point of being comical. I can think of no other words to describe it. I could only cringe through about half of it before I gave up and turned it off. So based on this, you and I will probably never agree on much of anything regarding music. But to each his own.



 But Paul I have an open mind. I actually do like many different interpretations of the piece and don't believe there has to be only one or two ways to interpret it. And Alexander Kniazev is reputable he's not just a random cellist who didn't receive proper musical education. His playing is well respected in many parts of world. Also it's probably because you don't like Rostropovich either. Kniazev takes the "slavic power" kind of playing to the next level.

I also love this (slightly more generic) interpretation. You might like it as well (let me know if you do):


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 16, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I have no interest in a big argument, but I find this performance of one of the greatest piece of music every written to be ugly and pseudo theatrical, almost to the point of being comical. I can think of no other words to describe it. I could only cringe through about half of it before I gave up and turned it off. So based on this, you and I will probably never agree on much of anything regarding music. But to each his own.



I'm surprised you felt that way...my reaction was opposite. But hey, to each their own.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 16, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> So based on this, you and I will probably never agree on much of anything regarding music. But to each his own.



I think I've already decided on that months ago when you were trying convince me to get into VSL products by showing me one of their demos playing Mendelssohn. Haha.


----------



## quantum7 (Jun 16, 2017)

Nothing has impressed me as much as Emotional Cellos. If I didn't have access to a real cellist I'd use this for sure.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 16, 2017)

quantum7 said:


> Nothing has impressed me as much as Emotional Cellos. If I didn't have access to a real cellist I'd use this for sure.



It's great imo! And one of the few vis where I've actually used the onboard room and reverb in a final mockup.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 16, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I think I've already decided on that months ago when you were trying convince me to get into VSL products by showing me one of their demos playing Mendelssohn. Haha.



I don't care what sample libraries you like or dislike. I do object to your expression of your opinion as if it was a fact.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 16, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I don't care what sample libraries you like or dislike. I do object to your expression of your opinion as if it was a fact.



I've apologized for that ever since my post on Chris Hein and have always put a "in my opinion" ever since. 

But seriously if I ever stated an opinion saying your mockups using VSL on Elgar's cello concerto is beautiful, it would be the wildest opinion ever.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 16, 2017)

Rob said:


> and here's a different perspective with the VSL cello (SE edition alas)... closer and cleaner
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-VslCello.mp3



Wow, NICE! I'd wish most of the VSL's demoes to have been made by you.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jun 16, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> I've apologized for that ever since my post on Chris Hein and have always put a "in my opinion" ever since.
> 
> But seriously if I ever stated an opinion saying your mockups using VSL on Elgar's cello concerto is beautiful, it would be the wildest opinion ever.



Here is a post from earlier in this thread, "You would be making a huge upgrade going from VSL solo cello ---> Chris Hein solo (any) string(s). And this is an under-statement. Glad you're finally seeing the light here." I guess I somehow missed the "I think" or "in my opnion" part.

Perhaps you think it is funny? Or cute? Anyway, life is too short to spend it being angry or hostile towards someone about music, which should be one of the greatest sources of joy in man's existence. I will not be interacting with you any further.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 16, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Here is a post from earlier in this thread, "You would be making a huge upgrade going from VSL solo cello ---> Chris Hein solo (any) string(s). And this is an under-statement. Glad you're finally seeing the light here." I guess I somehow missed the "I think" or "in my opnion" part.
> 
> Perhaps you think it is funny? Or cute? Anyway, life is too short to spend it being angry or hostile towards someone about music, which should be one of the greatest sources of joy in man's existence. I will not be interacting with you any further.



Not just my posts but if you think any of the posts members here are posting a statement without inserting "I think" or "in my opinion" are facts then do it at your own risk. Sorry if I made you angry or wasted your precious time.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jun 16, 2017)

Forgive me for so obviously intruding (I'll try not to make it so obvious next time), but you both seem to be knowledgeable and helpful people. VSL, Hein, regardless. You both have a lot to offer around here.


----------



## Rohann (Jun 20, 2017)

Re: Cellists. Found him on YouTube recently and coming from a metal background I found his approach to be rather unique and interesting. Haven't heard such a guitar-oriented approach on cello before.



And a lovely cover:


----------



## ctsai89 (Jun 21, 2017)

Rohann said:


> Re: Cellists. Found him on YouTube recently and coming from a metal background I found his approach to be rather unique and interesting. Haven't heard such a guitar-oriented approach on cello before.
> 
> 
> 
> And a lovely cover:




Haha cello is quite versatile I would say


----------



## oxo (Jun 21, 2017)

it is not solo library... but for some people in this thread it might be interesting to look at berlin strings EXP B special bow II. you get very warm and lyrical celli (sul tasto). if you use the close mic, it sounds almost like a solo cello.

...i had made a small example some time ago. i edited/re-arrange this vocal-piece for celli and basses to exercise. you hear only BST EXP B sul tasto:

https://app.box.com/s/qs0qrkc8c6s6g7ku62or

in this example i use not the pure close mic. but if you use it, you get a more solistic sound.

you'll find more in this threads:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/just-picked-up-ot-berlin-strings-exp-b-wow.41936/
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/orchestral-tools-special-bows-strings-demos.51046/


----------



## eli0s (Jun 21, 2017)

Rob said:


> and here's a different perspective with the VSL cello (SE edition alas)... closer and cleaner
> 
> www.robertosoggetti.com/Potter-VslCello.mp3



Now, this sounds so different than before... The tone is similar but the performance is much more realistic, not disconnected... Frankly, I am amazed by this interpretation! Didn't expect that, bravo!!!


----------



## Rohann (Jun 21, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> Haha cello is quite versatile I would say


Apparently! I don't think my guitar trem-picking is that fast.


----------



## jaketanner (Dec 31, 2017)

novaburst said:


> I have E C and Adagio cellos has a very nice solo cello,
> 
> But this virharmonic cello has really court my attention also the price, the mood and tone completely different from others.


Sounds like there is almost no Dynamics. Every stroke seems the same tone to me.


----------



## Rohann (Dec 31, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> Sounds like there is almost no Dynamics. Every stroke seems the same tone to me.


Which one? The Virharmonic cello is rather upfront, and they haven't expanded it yet. I think it's meant to really sound like a close-up soloist, rather than to be used in a quartet setting.


----------



## jaketanner (Dec 31, 2017)

It was whatever demo link I heard. Had a lot of repeated notes...sounded a bit stiff. The sound itself was okay, so maybe it was the performance? But I also just listened to CH cello...damn that's great.


----------



## Rohann (Dec 31, 2017)

jaketanner said:


> It was whatever demo link I heard. Had a lot of repeated notes...sounded a bit stiff. The sound itself was okay, so maybe it was the performance? But I also just listened to CH cello...damn that's great.


This is the Virharmonic cello and violin, but pre-expansion release (no on bow legato, different playing styles, etc) and really dry/close. It's really easy to play, importantly. The expansion has increased dynamics substantially:


----------



## Donny (Jan 14, 2018)

Hey guys im also looking for solo strings for a long time now 
I listen to a lot of demos and video walkthroughs but I don't quite like any of the sounds I feel there is still too much missing ... I would love to have a sample library that can do the first quartet part of this soundtrack i would be a happy man


----------



## noises on (Jan 14, 2018)

Best to look back at the preceding 8 pages of this discussion. Until the "Joshua Bell" cello comes out.....Virharmonic Bohemian cello, and Harmonic Subtones Emotional Cello are two of the best choices that I know. Thanks for the great link to the destiny piece above, and welcome to the eternal pursuit of solo virtual instruments.


----------



## mventura (Jan 14, 2018)

The Chris Hein cellos are awesome. So many articulations, great legato, and the tone sounds great. I also got my hands on an early release of the two new cellos being added in the solo cello package (coming out later this month). These sound amazing as well. So 4 cellos for $259 (last I checked). 

Additionally, all the CH solo strings have features that allow you to combine articulations to get real authentic sounds (portamento with trills). I don't own the CH violin or viola but I plan to get these since I am so happy with the cello.


----------



## Donny (Jan 14, 2018)

noises on said:


> Best to look back at the preceding 8 pages of this discussion. Until the "Joshua Bell" cello comes out.....Virharmonic Bohemian cello, and Harmonic Subtones Emotional Cello are two of the best choices that I know. Thanks for the great link to the destiny piece above, and welcome to the eternal pursuit of solo virtual instruments.



Thank you very much 
the destiny piece is just a perfect example for solo strings string quartet in a modern context I think really near warm sound 
For what I do I have made myself a nice template and it would be perfect if I had this kind of solo strings level

Sadly we have to wait a couple more years to archive this i guess =( ....


----------



## C-Wave (Jan 14, 2018)

Emotional cello for sale here. Emotional violin coming this NAMM 2018., i.e. in one week.


----------



## robgb (Jan 14, 2018)




----------



## FinGael (Jan 14, 2018)

robgb said:


>




Sample Modeling?


----------



## robgb (Jan 14, 2018)

FinGael said:


> Sample Modeling?


Yup.


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 14, 2018)

I have to throw another vote in the mix for Chris Hein, you can get good results instantly but with some work they can sound completely real.

And of course, four is better than one!


----------



## haydn12 (Jan 14, 2018)

I really like what Chris Hein is doing with his recent libraries. His solo strings are now my favorite. He did this cool demo at NAMM last year with a real violinist where they were trading solos in real time. It was hard to tell the samples from the real thing.

I also picked up his Orchestral Brass library and was pleasantly surprised on how good it was for the price. I prefer some of the instruments over Berlin Brass and find them much easier to play.

Jim


----------



## Rohann (Jan 14, 2018)

I spent an awful lot of time trying to figure this one out, and ended up with Virharmonic because I liked their platform and the fact that they're faithfully releasing fantastic expansions for their products, and as a non-string player who pays a lot of attention to strings, the fact that they fooled me most of the time was good enough for me. Chris Hein are another fantastic (somewhat more expensive) option, Sacconi strings sound pretty great, and a handful of others mentioned here are probably worth looking into.

Quite frankly, I don't think they're going to get that much better until there's some sort of better interface that comes out. You can have strings that are highly customizable, but come at the cost of playability. You can have highly playable strings (i.e. Virharmonic) that sound fantastic, but they're going to be restricted, somewhat, to how they were recorded -- it's going to be hard to make it sound like an Irish fiddle, for instance.

I've come to peace with the fact that _most _solo or small-scale instrument groups aren't going to do precisely what I want them to, and if they can, they're going to take an awful lot of tweaking and engineering to get them close. What I'm looking for are options that can get my ideas sounding relatively close to how I want and fool the average listener, and then after that, hiring a few string players is worth it the odd time I want something really polished (sans provided


----------



## JPQ (Jan 15, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Wow, NICE! I'd wish most of the VSL's demoes to have been made by you.


Really nice indeed and makes me think how i can put hollywood orchestra same room with vsl special edition. then i can use it fill hollywood orchestra gaps.(different celesta,better solo strings etc).


----------



## prodigalson (Jan 15, 2018)

I recently got the Chris Hein solo strings and generally speak I love them. Great tone, playable etc. my only concern so far is getting convincing dynamics on long notes. I find the difference in tone quality when using the X-fade function so shockingly bad relative to the velocity controlled dynamics that to me it's unusable. I've been using the dynamic sustain articulations which are really nice but feel constrained by how they're performed. For example, the dynamic sustain long articulation swells in volume, dips, then swells AGAIN before a long tail out. Definitely nice in some situations but far from a typical performance of an expressive long note. 

What am I doing wrong? How are u all getting expression in long notes with out going to the X-fade function?


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 15, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> I recently got the Chris Hein solo strings and generally speak I love them. Great tone, playable etc. my only concern so far is getting convincing dynamics on long notes. I find the difference in tone quality when using the X-fade function so shockingly bad relative to the velocity controlled dynamics that to me it's unusable. I've been using the dynamic sustain articulations which are really nice but feel constrained by how they're performed. For example, the dynamic sustain long articulation swells in volume, dips, then swells AGAIN before a long tail out. Definitely nice in some situations but far from a typical performance of an expressive long note.
> 
> What am I doing wrong? How are u all getting expression in long notes with out going to the X-fade function?



It's odd, you're not the first person to say that but I don't have the same experience at all with the viola, which is the only CH I own so far. Are you using the violin? If so, you're getting a couple more violin instruments this month. See if the problem is fixed at that point because it's possible that, the violin being their first string instrument, there may have been a learning curve for them. Meanwhile on the viola I hear no practical difference between the two, unless I'm the one doing something different.


----------



## Gensaii (Jan 15, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> It's odd, you're not the first person to say that but I don't have the same experience at all with the viola, which is the only CH I own so far. Are you using the violin? If so, you're getting a couple more violin instruments this month. See if the problem is fixed at that point because it's possible that, the violin being their first string instrument, there may have been a learning curve for them. Meanwhile on the viola I hear no practical difference between the two, unless I'm the one doing something different.



I do hope you're right about the learning curve part. The sound of the violin has been my least favorite of the 4 instruments. Well, the original violin anyway. It goes with what you said that the Italian violin sounds considerably better (to me), and I hope the Extended Strings will take it a step further.


----------



## dtcomposer (Jan 15, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> I recently got the Chris Hein solo strings and generally speak I love them. Great tone, playable etc. my only concern so far is getting convincing dynamics on long notes. I find the difference in tone quality when using the X-fade function so shockingly bad relative to the velocity controlled dynamics that to me it's unusable. I've been using the dynamic sustain articulations which are really nice but feel constrained by how they're performed. For example, the dynamic sustain long articulation swells in volume, dips, then swells AGAIN before a long tail out. Definitely nice in some situations but far from a typical performance of an expressive long note.
> 
> What am I doing wrong? How are u all getting expression in long notes with out going to the X-fade function?



I agree with you about the difference in sound. I think it is the way they phase align them (I believe they remove some of the "noise" in that process) for the X-fade samples. It's not as noticeable in the entire range of every instrument, but it is still a pretty big issue. Whatever they did just destroyed the realistic sound and replaced it with a synthetic mess. So you are forced to either never use dynamics on a long note or use a really unrealistic sounding instrument. I ended up re-selling my set because I just couldn't live with that. I am using the Bohemian strings now and very happy with them other than having to wait for all the updates.


----------



## Lassi Tani (Jan 15, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> I recently got the Chris Hein solo strings and generally speak I love them. Great tone, playable etc. my only concern so far is getting convincing dynamics on long notes. I find the difference in tone quality when using the X-fade function so shockingly bad relative to the velocity controlled dynamics that to me it's unusable. I've been using the dynamic sustain articulations which are really nice but feel constrained by how they're performed. For example, the dynamic sustain long articulation swells in volume, dips, then swells AGAIN before a long tail out. Definitely nice in some situations but far from a typical performance of an expressive long note.
> 
> What am I doing wrong? How are u all getting expression in long notes with out going to the X-fade function?



Could you post an example?


----------



## FinGael (Jan 16, 2018)

robgb said:


> Yup.



Yes. To be honest I have not been a fan of their modelled strings; the intonation seems nice, but there is something in the timbre and vibrato that make the sound in some way synthetic to my ear. Have to add, that I am not that experienced with strings, and that goes to both samples and real instruments. Other Sample Modeling products seem to be very good.

To topic: I have a bunch of solo cellos (Cinestrings Solo, Sacconi, Trio Broz, Emotional Cello, Tina Guo, Kirk Hunter, Strezov Macabre etc.) and Emotional Cello is my favourite of them. The playability could be better, but I really like the tone. I don't have Virharmonic Bohemian, but have their violin, which is pretty nice.

Waiting for a cello comparable to what Embertone did with Joshua Bell Violin...


----------



## thesteelydane (Jan 16, 2018)

FinGael said:


> Yes. To be honest I have not been a fan of their modelled strings; the intonation seems nice, but there is something in the timbre and vibrato that make the sound in some way synthetic to my ear. Have to add, that I am not that experienced with strings, and that goes to both samples and real instruments. Other Sample Modeling products seem to be very good.



I’m with you there. That cello sounds more like the illegitimate love child of a cor anglais and a cheap viola.


----------



## quantum7 (Jan 16, 2018)

FinGael said:


> *Yes. To be honest I have not been a fan of their modelled strings; the intonation seems nice, but there is something in the timbre and vibrato that make the sound in some way synthetic to my ear. *Have to add, that I am not that experienced with strings, and that goes to both samples and real instruments. Other Sample Modeling products seem to be very good.
> 
> To topic: I have a bunch of solo cellos (Cinestrings Solo, Sacconi, Trio Broz, Emotional Cello, Tina Guo, Kirk Hunter, Strezov Macabre etc.) and *Emotional Cello is my favourite of them*. The playability could be better, but I really like the tone. I don't have Virharmonic Bohemian, but have their violin, which is pretty nice.
> 
> *Waiting for a cello comparable to what Embertone did with Joshua Bell Violin*...



I agree!


----------



## prodigalson (Jan 16, 2018)

sekkosiki said:


> Could you post an example?



Here's a quick example of the Italian Violin. Out of the box, no processing.

#1 velocity controlled dynamics ("sustain vibrato" w/ "dynamic expression short" on the last note")

#2 Dynamics controlled via X-fade (only "sustain vibrato" articulation)

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ch-italian-violin-veldyn-mp3.11324/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/ch-italian-violin-x-fade-mp3.11325/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 16, 2018)

Referring to SampleModeling? I agree. The strings are weak in my opinion.


----------



## I like music (Jan 16, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Referring to SampleModeling? I agree. The strings are weak in my opinion.



I've been unsure of the timbre/tone, and the vibrato does seem synthetic, but probably because I spent so much money on them, I'm fishing for instances of where it does sound good.

That said, despite these shortcomings I can't bring myself not to use them. Just because each time I fiddle with something I've written, I feel like I can improve it just that little bit. The playability is great (though still figuring out a few things I've heard others do that I still can't do with the strings)

I did a Schindler's list test. I exaggerated things because I was trying to understand what effect all the CCs would have. I'll try to find some time to post it here, but you'll have to take it easy on me. Also, I don't play anything in because the delay on my midi inputs is close to half a second + I can't play a single line on a keyboard to save my life.


----------



## Chris Hein (Jan 16, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> I find the difference in tone quality when using the X-fade function so shockingly bad relative to the velocity controlled dynamics


I have to jump in here to let you know that the Phase Alignment for Cellos and Basses
have been dramatically improved in the new Extended version of the Solo Strings.
Not only the new instruments, also the existing Cellos and Basses have been reworked
to provide a much better X-Fade performance.

I hope you only have problems with the Cellos and Basses.
I'm pretty sure you complain about the attack of the notes and the loose of character.
IMO the phase-alignment works great for the higher instrument Viola and Violin,
but for the lower frequencies we had to rebuild the phase alignment completely.

Chris Hein


----------



## prodigalson (Jan 16, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> I have to jump in here to let you know that the Phase Alignment for Cellos and Basses
> have been dramatically improved in the new Extended version of the Solo Strings.
> Not only the new instruments, also the existing Cellos and Basses have been reworked
> to provide a much better X-Fade performance.
> ...



Thanks so much Chris for jumping in here. I very much appreciate it as I really respect and admire the level of detail, thought and functionality these instruments provide. It was the reason I purchased them. 

Addressing your comment though, I wonder if you were able to listen to the examples I posted earlier on this page which were of the Italian Violin, not the cello or bass. Do you have any thoughts on best practices to address dynamics when using the X-fade mode? Or maybe recommendations for getting more variety and expression over the velocity controlled dynamics?

Again, I really love these libraries, just would like to be able to use them to their fullest potential.


----------



## Chris Hein (Jan 16, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> Thanks so much Chris for jumping in here. I very much appreciate it as I really respect and admire the level of detail, thought and functionality these instruments provide. It was the reason I purchased them.
> 
> Addressing your comment though, I wonder if you were able to listen to the examples I posted earlier on this page which were of the Italian Violin, not the cello or bass. Do you have any thoughts on best practices to address dynamics when using the X-fade mode? Or maybe recommendations for getting more variety and expression over the velocity controlled dynamics?
> 
> Again, I really love these libraries, just would like to be able to use them to their fullest potential.


Sorry, I didn't hear your example before I wrote my comment.
The vibrato of the last note sound weird.
I have to check that here.

To be honest, I never liked the x-fade approach, because its simply not natural when working with samples of Solo Instruments.
You always double or triple the sample, which may be fine when working with ensembles,
because it doesn't really matter if you hear 12 or 24 violins.
But its a huge difference if you hear one or two solo instruments..
In my productions, I mostly use the dynamic expressions in velocity mode and ride the volume via CC7.

But I tried my best to provide a flanging free transition of the X-Fade for the Solo Strings.
Actually I think the difference in your example is not so bad, just the vibrato of the last note sounds weird.

The only thing I can promise is, that I'll try to improve thing if I can, even if a library is already released.

Its amazing how for we got already.
And at this point, I have to give a big Thanks to NI for their continuous fantastic development of Kontakt to provide us developers these amazing tools to create detailed VI's.

Chris Hein


----------



## prodigalson (Jan 16, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> Sorry, I didn't hear your example before I wrote my comment.
> The vibrato of the last note sound weird.
> I have to check that here.
> 
> ...



Thanks again, I'll continue to use velocity mode and ride volume as you suggest.


----------



## robgb (Jan 16, 2018)

FinGael said:


> Yes. To be honest I have not been a fan of their modelled strings; the intonation seems nice, but there is something in the timbre and vibrato that make the sound in some way synthetic to my ear.



Well, to be honest, all sampled strings sound a little synthetic to my ears. But the Sample Modeling strings are such a joy to play that I prefer them over any other library. Oh, and someone did a blind test last year putting real violin solos up against various solo violin libraries, and most people thought the Sample Modeling violin was the real thing...


----------



## robgb (Jan 16, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> Here's a quick example of the Italian Violin. Out of the box, no processing.



Hmmm. This sounds more synthetic to me than the Audio Modeling strings... I guess it comes down to personal taste.


----------



## prodigalson (Jan 16, 2018)

robgb said:


> Hmmm. This sounds more synthetic to me than the Audio Modeling strings... I guess it comes down to personal taste.



Out of curiosity, which example?


----------



## robgb (Jan 16, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> Out of curiosity, which example?


Both. The playing is nice (I prefer the mod wheel version), but there's something off about the sound for me. The truth is, however, the average listener wouldn't know the difference (and, yes, that does matter).


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Jan 16, 2018)

Another vote for emo cello (harmonic subtones) here. Wonderful instrument. Am interested to see what happens with their other imminent releases.
Having said that:
-I have Bohemain Violin and it's excellent (especially with the current expansion). If the cello is enhanced in the same way then it would probably be great too.
-If a version of Josh Bell came out with a cello I think it would be an insta-buy for me. Hint hint @Embertone. I love that vi.
-I have Chris Hein Winds and Brass complete. I think they are really great and I've been wanting to get the solo strings too as I have no doubt they would be excellent. However, to this point I haven't been able to swing it due to budget constraints as I have had other more pressing needs.
-If looking for something that would work for quartet writing perhaps consider Cinematic Studio Solo Strings. They're a little more reserved than the other solo instruments I've listed here. My opinion is that they work well in orchestral context for first chair/solo line work but I would describe them as less expressive (than those above) for really exposed solos. No solo bass in CSSS.

Of course YMMV, so my advice is to review as many demos and reviews as you can find and make the decision on what sounds good to you.

PS. I'm presuming someone has covered Sacconi in this thread? I don't have it so reluctant to comment more than that.


----------



## prodigalson (Jan 16, 2018)

robgb said:


> Both. The playing is nice (I prefer the mod wheel version), but there's something off about the sound for me. The truth is, however, the average listener wouldn't know the difference (and, yes, that does matter).



Interesting. Thanks for your thoughts. To me the first example is significantly better but of course each to their own. 

I do actually have the audio modeling cello and I far prefer the tone of the Chris Hein cello. In fact, I purchased it mainly out of disappointment with the AM cello. I'll try and post an example of each.


----------



## robgb (Jan 17, 2018)

prodigalson said:


> I do actually have the audio modeling cello and I far prefer the tone of the Chris Hein cello. In fact, I purchased it mainly out of disappointment with the AM cello. I'll try and post an example of each.



Check out version 2.0 from Audio Modeling.


----------



## pfmusic (Jan 17, 2018)

Not convinced with the sample modeling cello, sounds dated but all subjective. Love the Chris Hein cello and looking forward to update. Had noticed phasing issues but worked around it.

Like the cello from Sacconi string quartet, lovely shorts and flautando artics.

Great to see so much debate from my original post last year.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jan 17, 2018)

It's hard to beat chris hein when it comes to realism and the correct tone.


----------



## Rob (Jan 17, 2018)

yeah but the swam is the winner as far as free phrasing/articulation goes... to me anyway. I don't know of any other vsti that can do the following in one pass, no editing except some reverb, no keyswitch
a choice has to be made between tone and playability

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/swamcello-mp3.11340/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## robgb (Jan 17, 2018)

The SWAM sounds better.


----------



## pfmusic (Jan 17, 2018)

Rob said:


> yeah but the swam is the winner as far as free phrasing/articulation goes... to me anyway. I don't know of any other vsti that can do the following in one pass, no editing except some reverb, no keyswitch
> a choice has to be made between tone and playability
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/swamcello-mp3.11340/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Sounds good too, much better run-through of articulations than the other demo I heard earlier in this thread. The Chris Hein cello still wins it for me. All subjective of course.

Thanks for sharing


----------



## Lassi Tani (Jan 17, 2018)

Rob said:


> yeah but the swam is the winner as far as free phrasing/articulation goes... to me anyway. I don't know of any other vsti that can do the following in one pass, no editing except some reverb, no keyswitch
> a choice has to be made between tone and playability
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/swamcello-mp3.11340/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Playability seems to be great, but to me the tone sounds almost too clean, and the runs don't convince me. Too clean, too perfect.  To me at least.



prodigalson said:


> Here's a quick example of the Italian Violin. Out of the box, no processing.
> 
> #1 velocity controlled dynamics ("sustain vibrato" w/ "dynamic expression short" on the last note")
> 
> ...



Definitely the velocity controlled one. Seems more natural.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jan 17, 2018)

sekkosiki said:


> Playability seems to be great, but to me the tone sounds almost too clean, and the runs don't convince me. Too clean, too perfect.  To me at least.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely the velocity controlled one. Seems more natural.



Haha for that I would probably blame rob's great piano skills! 

Swam is really good too.


----------



## I like music (Jan 17, 2018)

sekkosiki said:


> Playability seems to be great, but to me the tone sounds almost too clean, and the runs don't convince me. Too clean, too perfect.  To me at least.
> 
> Definitely the velocity controlled one. Seems more natural.




I think that you can make it "unclean" too. Lots of control over things like bow pressure etc which can be applied whenever/wherever. That said, the resulting sound may still not be to your liking but I reckon that with enough time spent tweaking, you can simulate almost any nuance (I've found it difficult but that's because I'm lazy)


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 17, 2018)

Playability is only important to the extent that it doesn't sacrifice the right tone, and those instruments just fail there. The comments that the example could sound better with some tweaking makes me giggle too considering the point of the example was that there was no tweaking. If tweaking is back in the picture then you may as well start with a library that nails the tone.


----------



## chrisphan (Jan 19, 2018)

Rob said:


> yeah but the swam is the winner as far as free phrasing/articulation goes... to me anyway. I don't know of any other vsti that can do the following in one pass, no editing except some reverb, no keyswitch
> a choice has to be made between tone and playability
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/swamcello-mp3.11340/][/AUDIOPLUS]


I'm wondering how stacking multiple instances of 1 instrument work for physically modeled instruments?


----------



## robgb (Jan 19, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> If tweaking is back in the picture then you may as well start with a library that nails the tone.


I'm sure it comes as no surprise that I think the SWAM cello does a better job of nailing the tone. As I've mentioned before, the SWAM violin was added to a fake vs. real blind shootout here last year and many people thought it was the real thing. Is the tone perfect? Of course not. But I think some folks have a built in prejudice against modeled instruments that affects their hearing...  I could be wrong.


----------



## robgb (Jan 19, 2018)

chrisphan said:


> I'm wondering how stacking multiple instances of 1 instrument work for physically modeled instruments?


It's not very convincing, no. In my experience, even with tuning changes there are still a lot of phase issues.


----------



## aelwyn (Jan 19, 2018)

robgb said:


> As I've mentioned before, the SWAM violin was added to a fake vs. real blind shootout here last year and many people thought it was the real thing.



Do you happen to have a link to this? I'd love to hear it, but I can't find the thread.


----------



## robgb (Jan 19, 2018)

aelwyn said:


> Do you happen to have a link to this? I'd love to hear it, but I can't find the thread.


I'll see if I can find it. It was quite awhile ago, though.


----------



## lucor (Jan 19, 2018)

chrisphan said:


> I'm wondering how stacking multiple instances of 1 instrument work for physically modeled instruments?


@Saxer has done this and I think it sounds fantastic! Though he also layered in some Sable close mics IIRC.


----------



## jonathanprice (Jan 19, 2018)

I only own the Embertone, Audio Modeling, Vienna Solo Strings 1-Std, Serenade III, and CSSS. Out of those, I like Audio Modeling (below) for solos and CSSS for 1st chair.


----------



## constaneum (Jan 19, 2018)

after listening to Virharmonic's Bohemian Cello Exp 1, i have to say Bohemian Cello.


----------



## Chris Hein (Jan 19, 2018)

jonathanprice said:


> DIA=soundcloud]id=jonathanprice%2Fle-sicilienne-poc;track_id=339120720[/MEDIA]





jonathanprice said:


> I only own the Embertone, Audio Modeling, Vienna Solo Strings 1-Std, Serenade III, and CSSS. Out of those, I like Audio Modeling (below) for solos and CSSS for 1st chair.



Sicilienne by Gabriel Fouré is great for a comparison.

MIDI re-production with CH-Solo Cello 3 "The British Cello" from the new EX Instruments


Original Live Performance by Sonja Asselhoven:


Chris Hein


----------



## Vardaro (Jan 20, 2018)

robgb said:


> and most people thought the Sample Modeling violin was the real thing...


I can be fooled by the SM (AM) violin, but not the viola (I play both), nor the cello, probably because a real violin has less inertia in attacks and transitions than the viola or cello, and its strings vibrate less widely with fewer inherent pitch-bends.


----------



## I like music (Jan 20, 2018)

Vardaro said:


> I can be fooled by the SM (AM) violin, but not the viola (I pay both), nor the cello, probably because a real violin has less inertia in attacks and transitions than the viola or cello, and its strings vibrate less widely with fewer inherent pitch-bends.



I'm not a string player (barely know anything about them) but curious about what you mean with the inertia point. Do you mean that because they are larger instruments (with larger strings) it takes a bit more effort-in to get them going?


----------



## Vardaro (Jan 20, 2018)

I like music said:


> I'm not a string player (barely know anything about them) but curious about what you mean with the inertia point. Do you mean that because they are larger instruments (with larger strings) it takes a bit more effort-in to get them going?


Yes. Attacks, and notes in quick succession, _whether re-bowed or not_, take more time to be clear and in tune. This partly due to the heavier strings, but also to the larger body components. Even during the sustains, the bow has to "force" the less-than-perfect overtones of a real string to synchronise. I am sorry that the Swam team did not base their string modeling on a cunning selection of samples rather than the over-simple (!) digital wave guide synthesis. Their woodwinds have a much truer timbre.


----------



## Lotias (Jan 20, 2018)

My problem is, with the recent split between AudioModeling and Samplemodeling, AM is no longer allowed to use the IRs that SM owns - and one of those IRs (one of the many cellos you could choose between) was far more convincing than any of the new IRs (1 - A Stereo 14 was its name) as far as I can hear. The low notes in the new IRs just don't sound as well.

I found by installing the old 1.3 version that I could copy the IRs to the 2.0 version IR folder and I was able to use it just like I used to, but I have no idea if that's really allowed - I would ask the companies before doing this in any serious project. The other old IRs sound like poop compared to the new IRs, but that one in particular still seems to work _much_ better than the new ones.

EDIT:
Funnily, I found I could use the cello bodies on the viola in this way. It sounds like a cello pitched an octave or so higher.


----------



## mventura (Jan 24, 2018)

In the spirit of never ending this thread here is a cello quartet I am working on using all 4 of Chris Hein's cellos (2 cellos are free additions to the existing solo cello package).


----------



## pfmusic (Jan 24, 2018)

mventura said:


> In the spirit of never ending this thread here is a cello quartet I am working on using all 4 of Chris Hein's cellos (2 cellos are free additions to the existing solo cello package).
> 
> Is the cello update released yet?


----------



## robgb (Jan 24, 2018)

Lotias said:


> AM is no longer allowed to use the IRs that SM owns - and one of those IRs (one of the many cellos you could choose between) was far more convincing than any of the new IRs (1 - A Stereo 14 was its name) as far as I can hear. The low notes in the new IRs just don't sound as well.


I actually prefer the new IRs. I guess it's just a matter of personal preference.


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 24, 2018)

Yeah I also thought the new update to Chris Hein strings wasn't out yet


----------



## pfmusic (Jan 24, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> Yeah I also thought the new update to Chris Hein strings wasn't out yet



Was thinking the same. Maybe a beta tester?


----------



## mventura (Jan 24, 2018)

Yes Chris was kind enough to give me access to the 2 new cellos (British and German). Both have a unique character and tone IMO. 

BTW I used almost all the articulations in the piece I posted. I really love the shorts. I set up rules to use different shorts for different note lengths. This gives a more realistic sound for fast phrases. 

The glide mode is also quite lovely. This allows run-up/down transitions among notes (and can be customized to different scales).


----------



## pfmusic (Jan 24, 2018)

mventura said:


> Yes Chris was kind enough to give me access to the 2 new cellos (British and German). Both have a unique character and tone IMO.
> 
> BTW I used almost all the articulations in the piece I posted. I really love the shorts. I set up rules to use different shorts for different note lengths. This gives a more realistic sound for fast phrases.
> 
> The glide mode is also quite lovely. This allows run-up/down transitions among notes (and can be customized to different scales).



Nice one. Looking forward to the update. The British cello sounds lovely.


----------



## Lotias (Jan 25, 2018)

robgb said:


> I actually prefer the new IRs. I guess it's just a matter of personal preference.


Compared to the _other_ old ones - yes, the new ones are absolutely better. But the low notes sound something like, a saw wave that's too pure. It could fool an ear, maybe, but when comparing I far prefer that one single old IR.


----------



## CGR (Jan 25, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> Sicilienne by Gabriel Fouré is great for a comparison.
> 
> MIDI re-production with CH-Solo Cello 3 "The British Cello" from the new EX Instruments
> 
> ...



Just realised this piece reminds me of something:


----------



## pfmusic (Jan 25, 2018)

Just incase you missed this - 30% off Chris Hein Solo Strings bundle or single instruments.

Offer only available for *one day only [Jan 26th]*

Hopefully the new update is around the corner.


----------



## Quasar (Jan 25, 2018)

pfmusic said:


> Just incase you missed this - 30% off Chris Hein Solo Strings bundle or single instruments.
> 
> Offer only available for *one day only [Jan 26th]*
> 
> Hopefully the new update is around the corner.


The email I got said 1/26 until midnight. Does anyone know what time midnight the 26th is for Best Service?

As I type from US Central Time, it's 1:37 in the afternoon of the 25th, and how long I have to click "buy" (due to my financial reality) is actually relevant.


----------



## pfmusic (Jan 25, 2018)

It's a best service one day NAMM 2018 deal so I guess midnight US California time. Here's some of the email I received....

Here it is, our second "*One-Day-Deal*" for the NAMM Show, including all Chris Hein libraries.

Grab your chance and *save 30%* with your purchase of a *Chris Hein Library* today. Ending January 26th midnight already!

*CH Basses - CH Guitars - CH Chromatic Harmonica - CH Horns - CH Orchestral Brass - CH Orchestral Winds - CH Solo Strings**
_(Updates, Upgrades and Crossgrades excluded)_


----------



## Chris Hein (Jan 25, 2018)

The Chris Hein NAMM day, 30% storewide is also available at my shop:
https://www.chris-hein-shop.com/sound-libraries-1-0.html

The deal ends 26th midnight LA time.
I'm not at NAMM this year, so I can take care about your orders. 

Chris Hein


----------



## ctsai89 (Jan 25, 2018)

mventura said:


> In the spirit of never ending this thread here is a cello quartet I am working on using all 4 of Chris Hein's cellos (2 cellos are free additions to the existing solo cello package).




this is what realism sounds like. Not VSL solo cello.. sorry


----------



## micrologus (Jan 25, 2018)

Just bought the Chris Hein Cello, the sound is very good!


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> this is what realism sounds like. Not VSL solo cello.. sorry



Agreed, VSL is rather outdated in the solo strings department.


----------



## muziksculp (Jan 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> this is what realism sounds like. Not VSL solo cello.. sorry



CH Cellos sound great, but this piece with 4 Cellos gave me a headache 

Oh.. and the Synchron Solo Strings will surely sound amazing, so you might check them out when they are released.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jan 25, 2018)

muziksculp said:


> CH Cellos sound great, but this piece with 4 Cellos gave me a headache
> 
> Oh.. and the Synchron Solo Strings will surely sound amazing, so you might check them out when they are released.


Lol! Right. Of course I'm always on scout on the string libraries


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 25, 2018)

I have yet to decide whether I'm buying into Synchron. I'm waiting with excitement, but keeping my mind open.

Anyway my mind is solidly made up with Chris Hein's instruments. They're just beautiful to play and listen to.


----------



## Virtual Virgin (Jan 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> this is what realism sounds like. Not VSL solo cello.. sorry


Are you serious? This sounds fake right out of the gate.


----------



## Casiquire (Jan 25, 2018)

I wish this sale lasted until next weekend!


----------



## chapbot (Jan 25, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> this is what realism sounds like. Not VSL solo cello.. sorry


You just HAD to go there didn't you


----------



## ctsai89 (Jan 25, 2018)

chapbot said:


> You just HAD to go there didn't you


Oh oops I was drunk jk


----------



## robgb (Jan 26, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> this is what realism sounds like


We must have different concepts of realism.


----------



## Quasar (Jan 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> We must have different concepts of realism.


I honestly don't know what realism means. I suspect that the current dominant archetype for what constitutes "real" for orchestral instruments is an emulation of how they sound in traditional recorded media (either vinyl or CD) as opposed to how they sound from a live perspective in an orchestra hall.

If, when we were little kids, your parents took you to the symphony or the opera and my parents listened to Beethoven on $40 hi-fi speakers, we will likely have developed disparate frames of reference for subjectively measuring realism in sample libraries. And of course if you've ever spent significant time playing in a live orchestra, then you acquire yet another perspective altogether...

...I am really torn about getting the Chris Hein Solo Cello today before the NAMM flash sale ends, mulling the perceived pros & cons.


----------



## ceemusic (Jan 26, 2018)

For mixing with orchestra I'll still enjoy using the pocket Blakus & keep it all in my templates.


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 26, 2018)

I'm not sure if it's the best (I know it's better than Hollywood solo cello), but I use *Emotional Cello* a _LOT_ and love it. The sound is terrific (yeah it's baked in, but for some reason that library is easier for me to integrate with other instruments than the majority of, say, the Spitfire stuff).

I should give the Hein a try, since I believe it's as dry as his other libraries.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 26, 2018)

Quasar said:


> I honestly don't know what realism means. I suspect that the current dominant archetype for what constitutes "real" for orchestral instruments is an emulation of how they sound in traditional recorded media (either vinyl or CD) as opposed to how they sound from a live perspective in an orchestra hall.
> 
> If, when we were little kids, your parents took you to the symphony or the opera and my parents listened to Beethoven on $40 hi-fi speakers, we will likely have developed disparate frames of reference for subjectively measuring realism in sample libraries. And of course if you've ever spent significant time playing in a live orchestra, then you acquire yet another perspective altogether...
> 
> ...I am really torn about getting the Chris Hein Solo Cello today before the NAMM flash sale ends, mulling the perceived pros & cons.



Your observations are spot on in my opinion. I grew up listening to classical music and began playing the cello in 1967. Over time the styles of playing have changed rather dramatically and different people will certainly respond more to one style than another. Just consider some of the famous soloists featured in this thread alone.

One thing I really like about the VSL solo cello is the tuning humanization feature in VI-Pro. This feature causes each note to begin out of tune, then be brought into tune. The user can control the amount of this feature. For me, this feature adds a lot of realism to the sound. However, the lack of ability to control bow pressure and bow speed makes the tone rather uniform. 

Throw in controls for bow speed and bow pressure and suddenly you can improve realism, but now the user must spend a lot of time polishing each performance and basically learning to play the VI the way one would play the actual instrument. Not very user-friendly.

I do like the sound quality of the Chris Hein that has been posted here and will probably buy it today. But I do not expect any of the VI cellos to be perfect. But maybe one day?


----------



## Quasar (Jan 26, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> ...Throw in controls for bow speed and bow pressure and suddenly you can improve realism, but now the user must spend a lot of time polishing each performance and basically learning to play the VI the way one would play the actual instrument. Not very user-friendly.



Besides price, this is partially where I'm torn. The CH clearly has an impressive capacity rendering an exceptionally large number of articulative options, but I don't know - realistically - if I'm ever going to avail myself of all of that and do the work required to program expression on a deep level. One thing I really like about Embertone's Josh Bell is that you can do _so much_ by simply playing on the keyboard, and I like this tendency among some of the newer independent developers (Performance Samples, Light & Sound et al) toward immediate playability for people like me who do not play the cello but think like piano players. Maybe I'm just lazy lol, but I don't like twiddling in MIDI editors too much. I'd rather just mainly play, with easily accessible MW, EP and a few TouchOSC commands maybe.


Paul T McGraw said:


> I do like the sound quality of the Chris Hein that has been posted here and will probably buy it today. But I do not expect any of the VI cellos to be perfect. But maybe one day?



Perfect? I don't think perfection is possible even in theory, insofar as one thing is never another thing, one person's subjective perfection will differ from another's, and because as sample libraries develop and become applied, this in itself inherently changes the musical and cultural context in which they are embedded, and something akin to Heisenberg's uncertainty comes into play.

A crude metaphor might be the onset of television in the late 1940s. Some naively imagined that it would merely bring existing forms of entertainment into the home (Broadway, Hollywood, concert halls etc.) without appreciating that the medium is always the message and all of that, and that "TV" as we have come to know it is its own thing with its own set of rules.

Perfect, for me, would be a v-cello that could be easily manipulated by the keys and offer intuitive access to what I _imagine _a live cello sounds like in real time (perhaps using a customizable AI for anticipating articulation contexts?). Since you're a cello player and I'm not, what passes muster for me may not work for you and vice versa. Perfection IMHO is a dynamical, ever elusive target.


----------



## Sami (Jan 26, 2018)

I've found that expressive playing (which has to be possible on a given instrument) is often preferrable to "realism". With cello, which is one of the most expressive instruments around, this is more true than ever. I find Virharmonics offering extremely expressive out of the box, which facilitates an emotionally engaging performance, even though it is obviously not real. 
Lets face it: The people who listen to our music and are not musicians couldn't tell the difference between "real" and "sample" 10 years ago when we did it properly. 
Us and our musician friends will ALWAYS be able to tell the difference. I'm a pianist and orchestral conductor (by training). I wrote a cello mockup which I thought sounded "pretty good". My cellist friend, who plays in a professional symphonic orchestra found it "heinous". 

In the end therefore, it matters to me to have an instrument that I find (1) expressive to perform on, (2) easy to program and (3) inspiring sounding.
"Realism" is a trait I don't even look for. It all sounds god-awfully fake. But fake does not mean "bad".


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 26, 2018)

butWhen I read all "god-awfully fake"...Emotional Cello rarely sounds anywhere near that (except perhaps for some of the legati, but that's a problem endemic to most libraries imo, one that needs to be prioritized in making future libraries).

However, as stated above, EC has its own problems.

As intimated by Sami, if a library satisfies your need for an expressive voice, then there's not too much to criticize is there? I've found a way to express my idiosyncratic voice in EC, the CH solo violin, and to a lesser extent the 8dio Adagio Bass and Viola (the solo stuff, the ensembles are another story). And for the most part I've worked with them enough to know how to gliss over the more "fake sounding" aspects and make it work toward what I want. It really is down to learning as much as you can (not to mention working with the library as much as you can) in order to get as real and/or expressive results as possible.

And folks, I'm so sorry for being a broken record, but if it's "ultimate realism" your looking for, DISAVOW THAT AIM WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE CAUSE IT AIN'T HAPPENING. Such an Unrealistic goal will ultimately stifle your creativity and ruin your motivation for studying up on a library. You are NOT going to get that, so go hire a player for that specific piece if that means so much to you (it will cost you one hell of a lot less aggravation, though it's expensive).

If you just want to "fool" the majority of casual listeners though, many of the libraries here can do that. Depends on how much you desire that as an end result. Because you won't fool people who've worked with those musicians, and you _*damn*_ sure won't fool the players, producers, engineers, etc.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 26, 2018)

Sami said:


> I've found that expressive playing (which has to be possible on a given instrument) is often preferrable to "realism". With cello, which is one of the most expressive instruments around, this is more true than ever. I find Virharmonics offering extremely expressive out of the box, which facilitates an emotionally engaging performance, even though it is obviously not real.
> Lets face it: The people who listen to our music and are not musicians couldn't tell the difference between "real" and "sample" 10 years ago when we did it properly.
> Us and our musician friends will ALWAYS be able to tell the difference. I'm a pianist and orchestral conductor (by training). I wrote a cello mockup which I thought sounded "pretty good". My cellist friend, who plays in a professional symphonic orchestra found it "heinous".
> 
> ...



I think it is great that you have found a product with Virharmonic that works for you. Perhaps we use the word realism in different ways. And even our ideas of what makes a good performance probably differ as well. We live in a great time to create music with so many good choices available. And each of us can express ourselves to our own liking.


----------



## Sami (Jan 26, 2018)

I don't disagree with anyone here, by the way, I'm just an old-fashioned coot with a strong opinion and I'm used to real instrumentalists and real instruments. I like all of the celli, I own CH, Emo and Virharmonic and I use them in projects. I just never think "oh this sounds damn realistic" when I do.


----------



## robgb (Jan 26, 2018)

I have to assume that what constitutes "realism" to many of us is considerably different than the perception of realism of the average listener.


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> I have to assume that what constitutes "realism" to many of us is considerably different than the perception of realism of the average listener.



Sure! I've played mock ups for casual listeners countless times, and roughly 8 times out of 10 they thought I was using actual orchestral instruments.

People whom have actually written (and/or conducted, arranged, orchestrated) for orchestral performance, and seen those works done in concert...they'll ask you not even minutes into a listening session what vsts you are working with. And that's 10 out of 10. That might tell folks something.


----------



## Paul T McGraw (Jan 26, 2018)

I just purchased the Chris Hein solo strings bundle. I am inspired by @Sami to one day collect all of the various offerings. Now if I can just find space in my computer to stuff it in there somehow, I can give it a whirl.


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 26, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I just purchased the Chris Hein solo strings bundle. I am inspired by @Sami to one day collect all of the various offerings. Now if I can just find space in my computer to stuff it in there somehow, I can give it a whirl.



I've been considering adding to the solo violin, which I love so much I ended up selling my Embertone! I had to work with it awhile, but the violin has yielded great results for me.


----------



## mventura (Jan 26, 2018)

Quasar said:


> Besides price, this is partially where I'm torn. The CH clearly has an impressive capacity rendering an exceptionally large number of articulative options, but I don't know - realistically - if I'm ever going to avail myself of all of that and do the work required to program expression on a deep level.... Maybe I'm just lazy lol, but I don't like twiddling in MIDI editors too much. I'd rather just mainly play, with easily accessible MW, EP and a few TouchOSC commands maybe



As far as programming CH-- it took me about an hour to set up rules to trigger the keyswitches in my notation software (Notion 6). I then tweak note velocities and durations (to trigger portamento and glides). I don't play keyboard so I miss out on the cool "hot keys" feature which also looks very easy to use.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jan 26, 2018)

robgb said:


> We must have different concepts of realism.



sure, we both have strong opinions.


----------



## robgb (Jan 26, 2018)

Darren Durann said:


> People whom have actually written (and/or conducted, arranged, orchestrated) for orchestral performance, and seen those works done in concert...they'll ask you not even minutes into a listening session what vsts you are working with.


Yep. And engineers, too, of course. I sent some stems to a guy in New York who would be recording a vocal for me and mixing the final track. One of the stems was a violin solo. First thing he said when I got to his studio was, "Why didn't you use a real violin?" He was the first person who had listened to the tracks to ask that. Everyone else, including the singer (who's been around the block a few times) had no idea it was a sampled violin.


----------



## ctsai89 (Jan 26, 2018)

Paul T McGraw said:


> I just purchased the Chris Hein solo strings bundle. I am inspired by @Sami to one day collect all of the various offerings. Now if I can just find space in my computer to stuff it in there somehow, I can give it a whirl.



I sure hope you think it's worth every penny!


----------



## Quasar (Jan 26, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


>




I purchased the Chris Hein Solo Cello today on the NAMM sale, and as soon as I played a few notes on the Romantic Cello was immediately insanely happy that I did. And damn, now I want the whole CH strings set. It never effing ends...

This video is well-crafted and intriguing, and the music is great. Two questions: Are CH instruments used in this? And are there any German speakers who can translate the words at the end into English?


----------



## Vadium (Jan 26, 2018)

Is there any examples of *one* phrase, played by all instruments of extended CH solo strings for compare like this? 

(one phrase played by 4 violins, and another one phrase in low register, played by 4 cellos)


----------



## SomeGuy (Jan 26, 2018)

Is there an upgrade price from Chris Hein's solo cello to the complete solo strings? Was thinking of buying it while it was on sale to see if I get along with his solo string concept and then upgrade later. Looks like you can with the violin and viola, but not the cello? Seems odd. Might just skip the whole thing for now then...


----------



## Sami (Jan 26, 2018)

Chris's cello is I think the best example of what can be achieved in regards to realism but it requires a lot of programming to extract the full potential it has.


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 27, 2018)

Sami said:


> Chris's cello is I think the best example of what can be achieved in regards to realism but it requires a lot of programming to extract the full potential it has.



Sami's right. But the payoff is more than worth it imo. I mean the violin...I'm not sure whether the cello requires even more programming.


----------



## Darren Durann (Jan 27, 2018)

robgb said:


> Yep. And engineers, too, of course. I sent some stems to a guy in New York who would be recording a vocal for me and mixing the final track. One of the stems was a violin solo. First thing he said when I got to his studio was, "Why didn't you use a real violin?" He was the first person who had listened to the tracks to ask that. Everyone else, including the singer (who's been around the block a few times) had no idea it was a sampled violin.



(smiling) Yep, that's a typical response!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 4, 2018)

Best Service is having a select BOGO.

Chris Hein Solo Violin EX, Solo Cello EX, and Emotional Cello are all $259 each.

thinking CH SV and SC for $259 is a great deal.

4 instruments each.

question, how playable out of the box is the CH String stuff?


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Jul 4, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Best Service is having a select BOGO.
> 
> question, how playable out of the box is the CH String stuff?



Hi Zoot. I think you heard the track i posted in the other CH thread? That solo cello in the beginning is essentially me just noodling around on one legato patch. The expression and playability of that patch inspired the whole piece.
So i would say it can be very playable, if that's the tone/feel you're after.
Quite similar to Emotional Cello in ways, where a couple of the articulations really lend themselves to simply 'playing' with minimal programming, yet still offer the flexibility to tweak and program with individual articulations, transitions, vibrato, etc.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 4, 2018)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Hi Zoot. I think you heard the track i posted in the other CH thread? That solo cello in the beginning is essentially me just noodling around on one legato patch. The expression and playability of that patch inspired the whole piece.
> So i would say it can be very playable, if that's the tone/feel you're after.
> Quite similar to Emotional Cello in ways, where a couple of the articulations really lend themselves to simply 'playing' with minimal programming, yet still offer the flexibility to tweak and program with individual articulations, transitions, vibrato, etc.



i did hear it, and liked it a lot.

thanks for the input - really appreciate it.

the Best Service deal is a tough one to pass up.


----------



## germancomponist (Jul 4, 2018)

My wife plays the cello, and she plays sooo good.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 4, 2018)

germancomponist said:


> My wife plays the cello, and she plays sooo good.



have you sampled your wife?


----------



## Chris Hein (Jul 4, 2018)

Vadium said:


> Is there any examples of *one* phrase, played by all instruments of extended CH solo strings for compare like this?
> 
> (one phrase played by 4 violins, and another one phrase in low register, played by 4 cellos)




Something like this is here:


Chris Hein


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 4, 2018)

Chris Hein said:


> Something like this is here:
> 
> 
> Chris Hein




In USA … please advise how I might do the 2-for-1 deal and end up with BEST price to get to this end-result?
Like … is there a single Lib, that gets free 2nd, and then Upgrade to Complete Extended?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 4, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> In USA … please advise how I might do the 2-for-1 deal and end up with BEST price to get to this end-result?



add 2-fer items to your cart and it is discounted.

as far as i can tell.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 4, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> add 2-fer items to your cart and it is discounted.
> 
> as far as i can tell.



I see that entering all (4), the 2-for-1 deal gets me all of them for $438. (-26.9%) ____ ~~ $109. per Library.
It looks that I then have everything that is in CH_Strings Complete Extended ??


----------



## Quasar (Jul 4, 2018)

sostenuto said:


> No comprende ! Complete Extended is $599. any day. Is there a way to use the 2-for-1 deal and then Upgrade for less than $599. ?


AFAIK, no. All you can do is buy another product along with it, and your total will be $599, assuming that your 2nd 2-for1 item costs less or is equal to $599.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 4, 2018)

Quasar said:


> AFAIK, no. All you can do is buy another product along with it, and your total will be $599, assuming that your 2nd 2-for1 item costs less or is equal to $599.




if you add the solo strings separately, the total is less.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jul 4, 2018)

Emotional Cello was a hit for me from day one, just a terrific sound imo. But there's no doubt I'll be grabbing the Hein when the funds move me; that way I'll have both dry and wet libraries.


----------



## Quasar (Jul 4, 2018)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> if you add the solo strings separately, the total is less.


Could be. I just looked it up. If they let you check out twice or have two 2/1s, you could get the Violin + Cello Extended for $259, then get Viola + Bass for $179, = $438.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo (Jul 4, 2018)

Quasar said:


> Could be. I just looked it up. If they let you check out twice or have two 2/1s, you could get the Violin + Cello Extended for $259, then get Viola + Bass for $179, = $438.




yup

that's what i have in my cart.

you don't need to check out twice.

just add them in the right order.


----------



## sostenuto (Jul 4, 2018)

Really dig the quality providers who use Euro = USD pricing model !!


----------



## noises on (Jul 8, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Emotional Cello was a hit for me from day one, just a terrific sound imo. But there's no doubt I'll be grabbing the Hein when the funds move me; that way I'll have both dry and wet libraries.


Any idea what happened to the Violin?


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Jul 9, 2018)

noises on said:


> Any idea what happened to the Violin?


Last I heard (from a poster here) they were adding a second violin to the package. Not sure on ETA. Others may know. 
I’m seriously fighting CH Solo Strings gas right now. The 2 for 1 deal is a good ‘un.


----------



## Myles Cochran (Jun 11, 2020)

Hi -

Bringing this thread back to see if there have been any updates since July 2018... I work with a cellist a lot, and I'm looking for a library that will allow me to write more effectively for him - right now I have a small hodgepodge of libraries that focus more on ensembles. As I have my collaborator to turn my ideas into actual music, I probably don't need to dive into intense programming, although I have seen what doing a lot of post-performance work can bring to a part. I guess I'm looking for something inspiring...

Any suggestions? It might be that the Blakus will give me what I want, but I'm willing to part with more money if there's something clearly better... but then we get into what "better" is... 

Of course, I'm about as far from Black Friday/NAMM sales as I could be.

Thanks!

Myles


----------



## Fleer (Jun 11, 2020)

Inspiring? Apart from Blakus, try CineSamples Tina Guo and BestService Emotional Cello.


----------

