# How to get ideas like Hans Zimmer for Pirates of the Caribbean?



## Asterixobelix (Jan 27, 2020)

Hi.
Some of you already know me here, as I am newbie with some questions already asked.

How do I get ideas like Hans Zimmer for Pirate movies?
I have tried creating my melody using his spaces between notes, or just changing core melody and chords and leaving rhythm the same, but I get weird melody that sound somehow awkward, and you can hear it here...https://clyp.it/3arlrxea

There has to be some rule about creating melodies for Pirates (Adventure) kind of movies, than some other sort for romantic movies, sci-fi movies, and tbh I am only interested in this branch about pirates and adventures (I would never even try to do sci-fi, horror or whatever else, but just this type staccato, spiccato, much of percussion, adventures!!!!!), it is kinda similar as I know for movies I watched and heard tracks (fix me if I am wrong)?

Do maybe modes here have something to do with creating melody particularly for adventures types of music, some other for sci-fi, third for action, thriller and so on...?

 Will someone be so kind to explain in details and help a newbie?


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## Asterixobelix (Jan 27, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> The secret lies in Davey Jones’ Locker! Arrrrrrrrgghh!! Broooooooock!!!


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## erica-grace (Jan 27, 2020)

Asterixobelix said:


> Hi.
> Some of you already know me here, as I am newbie with some questions already asked.
> 
> How do I get ideas like Hans Zimmer for Pirate movies?
> ...



Transcription.


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## Jediwario1 (Jan 27, 2020)

I think it's one of those cases where if you study and think about it too much you'll just end up with a disappointing pale imitation.

I'm not sure how you usually compose, but I'd try to make something new and original that captures the spirit/feel of adventure movies rather than copying one or two pieces directly.


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## brek (Jan 27, 2020)

There's some good things you have going, but the core issue is a lack of variation. Really listen to that PoTC theme and key in on when HZ flips the melody. There's two repeats of the main phrase, but on the third repetition the reluctant adventurer that is the melody has to burst out of its comfort zone before (briefly) coming home. 

So while the rhythm stays the same, the CONTOUR of the melody takes us on a journey. Just as importantly, the harmony changes in subtle but dramatic ways to underscore this.

More so than the specific melody itself, the use of repetition and variation are concepts you can apply to all of your work.


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## Asterixobelix (Jan 27, 2020)

Jediwario1 said:


> I think it's one of those cases where if you study and think about it too much you'll just end up with a disappointing pale imitation.
> 
> I'm not sure how you usually compose, but I'd try to make something new and original that captures the spirit/feel of adventure movies rather than copying one or two pieces directly.


I wish I can even be a copy, as I do this for a hobby, and I have strong wish to elarn it, not to rbag about it but to satisfy myself.
If I try to develop own jumpy adventure ideas, ti ends like this...








idea - Clyp


Listen to idea | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it





_Usually I don't know how to "fill up" the track, even if I get ideas, so some advice about that could help too._

Thank you all, guys!!!!


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## fretti (Jan 28, 2020)

Asterixobelix said:


> Will someone be so kind to explain in details and help a newbie?



Not a step by step tutorial, but Ashton always has some great insights and helps to better understand a score, how certain things were achieved etc. Maybe that's a helpful starting point 




Also some great (and different from PotC) sounding examples of Pirate/Adventure soundtracks here and here.



Asterixobelix said:


> How do I get ideas like Hans Zimmer for Pirate movies?


Plus: HZ likes to write in d, maybe writing chord progessions in that scale helps getting that sound you're after quicker


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## JT (Jan 28, 2020)

If you read sheet music, here's a link to an arrangement of Pirates. If you click on the preview, you can see the whole score. This arrangement was written by someone else, but you can see what type of orchestral devices give it that "Pirate" sound.

As mentioned above, transcribing it yourself would be the best learning experience for you.

https://www.jwpepper.com/Pirates-of-the-Caribbean/2476582.item#/


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## Asterixobelix (Jan 28, 2020)

@fretti Thank you.



JT said:


> If you read sheet music, here's a link to an arrangement of Pirates. If you click on the preview, you can see the whole score. This arrangement was written by someone else, but you can see what type of orchestral devices give it that "Pirate" sound.
> 
> As mentioned above, transcribing it yourself would be the best learning experience for you.
> 
> https://www.jwpepper.com/Pirates-of-the-Caribbean/2476582.item#/


Thank you, and I am sorry I forgot to mention that I am already transcribing many tracks, and I am doing so for a year.
I think I am not bad at it, here is the pirates theme https://clyp.it/qaxasows

Problem is when I want to create my own theme.


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## bryla (Jan 28, 2020)

Just gotta absorb more. Keep transcribing, playing, practicing. At a certain point you’ll have such a vocabulary that when you transcribe something you go “oh why didn’t they do it this way?” Then you’ll soon find applications for all the great snippets you’ve picked up.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 28, 2020)

Asterixobelix said:


> I think I am not bad at it, here is the pirates theme https://clyp.it/qaxasows


I'm afraid your harmonies are all off - it sounds like you roughly transcribed the melody, then just duplicated the line a fourth below (or a third above at points) without thinking about the context or the sound of the harmony. 

Sounds like you would benefit massively from some piano lessons or basic music theory/ear training stuff. Trying to create big orchestral arrangements without understanding the building blocks of melodic writing and harmony is a big ask...


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## tokatila (Jan 28, 2020)

This is like the original theme, put played drunk. I guess that's kind of appropriate, if you think about that Jack Sparrow fella.

Yeah, sorry not that helpful except you might not want to copy the original so closely.


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## Kery Michael (Jan 28, 2020)

Don't forget too that HZ is super talented, a pro and has been doing it for decades.

He didn't just fall off the turnip truck one day, get up and start writing soundtracks... he's been honing his skills throughout the years. He's put in a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears into his work.

So my suggestion is don't compare yourself to HZ, most likely you'll find yourself getting depressed. But learn from him, emulate and incorporate what you like about him, absolutely and definitely. If you put in the work then maybe one day you'll be able to write decent pieces in his style. But there really is only one HZ.


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## d.healey (Jan 28, 2020)

Do what Hans does, practice a lot. Here are some earlier examples of Hans' "pirate" music.

Quick cheat sheet - any combination of Dm, Bb, C, AMaj + throw in a G or F every now and again for interest.


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## Asterixobelix (Jan 28, 2020)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> I'm afraid your harmonies are all off - it sounds like you roughly transcribed the melody, then just duplicated the line a fourth below (or a third above at points) without thinking about the context or the sound of the harmony.
> 
> Sounds like you would benefit massively from some piano lessons or basic music theory/ear training stuff. Trying to create big orchestral arrangements without understanding the building blocks of melodic writing and harmony is a big ask...











track_32 - Clyp


Listen to track_32 | Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.




clyp.it




What "He's a pirate" track on the main theme has except spiccato on cellos and bass line (and maybe tuba or bass trombone) on roots, followed by many different instrument groups playing main melody?

Later trombones follow roots and 5ths if I hear well, to give more tension before again it returns to similar to main theme.

Most of the track is covered by percussion, so I covered mine as well, or than I have broken ears if it is not like that.


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## d.healey (Jan 28, 2020)

Listening to all these piratey tracks inspired me. So I wrote a little thing, it's rendered with Musescore default sounds so don't expect anything fantastic, feel free to take the little theme and make it better


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## Saxer (Jan 28, 2020)

The pirate track is a good example for writing in a genre. Probably the main ideas come from sailor songs like „What shall we do with a drunken sailor“. It‘s danceable, it‘s singable, it has a simple 2x4 bars form, it‘s written in dorian minor. It’s just arranged in a cinematic way. The historic background of this genre is probably Irish or Scottish folk music. Immigrants brought it to America and it developed to Square Dance, Blue Gras, American Folk music. A lot of this style is also used in classical Western movies. It’s always a good idea go back to the source and get inspiration from the original.


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## Asterixobelix (Jan 28, 2020)

Saxer said:


> The pirate track is a good example for writing in a genre. Probably the main ideas come from sailor songs like „What shall we do with a drunken sailor“. It‘s danceable, it‘s singable, it has a simple 2x4 bars form, it‘s written in dorian minor. It’s just arranged in a cinematic way. The historic background of this genre is probably Irish or Scottish folk music. Immigrants brought it to America and it developed to Square Dance, Blue Gras, American Folk music. A lot of this style is also used in classical Western movies. It’s always a good idea go back to the source and get inspiration from the original.


Thank You.
It is not good to use sustains in such tracks, right?
I tried, and it never sounds good if I mix staccato / spiccato runs and try to put long notes on sustains to follow as harmonic support, or maybe I just don't know how to do it.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 29, 2020)

Asterixobelix said:


> Most of the track is covered by percussion, so I covered mine as well, or than I have broken ears if it is not like that.



9 seconds in - when the melody rises, you have a sort of Bb diminished feel because you've harmonised the melody note (G) with an E, but the chord at that point should be a Gm/Bb (I think, without listening to the original).

12 seconds - Dm7 because there's a C in the harmony where it should be a D. 

Lots of stuff like this - you should be able to instinctively hear that kind of stuff as 'wrong' in context, so work and work and work until your ear picks it up!


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 29, 2020)

Here's some snippets of pirate tracks I did for a library - different instrumentation and time sigs, but there's an inherent 'pirate-ness' to certain melody shapes and harmonic progressions. You could probably analyse that and connect it to Celtic music, folk traditions and shanties etc, but it's best to just listen lots to every kind of music you hear, until you get a feel for how to communicate a certain feeling or style.


Also if you want pirate/adventure arrangement tips, this video from Blakus is gold.


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## Asterixobelix (Jan 29, 2020)

Richard Wilkinson said:


> Here's some snippets of pirate tracks I did for a library - different instrumentation and time sigs, but there's an inherent 'pirate-ness' to certain melody shapes and harmonic progressions. You could probably analyse that and connect it to Celtic music, folk traditions and shanties etc, but it's best to just listen lots to every kind of music you hear, until you get a feel for how to communicate a certain feeling or style.
> 
> 
> Also if you want pirate/adventure arrangement tips, this video from Blakus is gold.




Ahh, you meant on melody that plays under original melody.
Well, I actually wanted it this way, it is more powerful, and yes, I probably did mistakes there, I did not followed would I create diminished chord or anything else, just followed ears and put the notes that sound satisfying to my ear, together with melody.

I am not well with the theory, but I know what it means to create diminished chord, but when I work on melody, I kinda don't look at chords and vice versa, I find it difficult to do so.

Shortly, I can not visually notice if it is diminished or any chord once it is inverted, I lose sense, and I mostly draw notes for harmony, because I can play piano only by right hand, it means only for melody, since young age I used to transcribe many different tracks by ear, but just with right hand and only a main melody.

So, now when I work in a daw, and notes of chords get inverted, splited in multiple octaves, I am not able to determine what chord those notes would form.

Now I understand well what you meant by piano classes.

I have trained ear for melody, and trained ear to transcribe melody on piano, harmony not at all, I use scale helper in daw and harmonize by ear, or harmonize by triads similar to notes that melody uses, it works, maybe I miss how it was done in original tracks, but I transcribe it theoretically correct, because "rule is there is no rule" in music.

I did read few books about harmony, and there is where I learnt there is no rule in music.
Most often they would explain big composers, than take rules from their works, avoid parallel fifths, avoid same voice motions, avoid big intervals... I understood that all, I apply some of these rules as well, but not all, and composer A rule clashes with Composer B rule... there is no universal rule about it.

Thank you for kind answers, and sorry if I said something incorrect, that is knowledge I gained (as I understand) from books.


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## davidson (Jan 29, 2020)

Asterixobelix said:


> Shortly, I can not visually notice if it is diminished or any chord once it is inverted, I lose sense, and I mostly draw notes for harmony, because I can play piano only by right hand, it means only for melody, since young age I used to transcribe many different tracks by ear, but just with right hand and only a main melody.



That's everything, right there. What you play with your left hand will have a huge impact on how the right hand sounds - harmony. Spend the next 12 months learning to play with both hands. You'll find it's the left hand that gives those goose pimple moments to what the righty hand's playing.

Edit: try something like playground sessions, pianote, or flowkey.


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 29, 2020)

Asterixobelix said:


> Thank you for kind answers, and sorry if I said something incorrect, that is knowledge I gained (as I understand) from books.



Nothing incorrect! You're trying to learn more and get better, which is all any of us can do. And it sounds like you are doing lots of transcribing too which is great.
Most of those harmony notes are correct - they fit the chords and the key in the right context. The harmony notes which aren't correct are not difficult to fix, but you need to acquire (through listening, or studying, or playing, or transcribing) an innate sense of 'what chord goes where'.
Maybe learning piano with lead sheets would be useful? A melody in the right hand and chord voicing/shapes in the left. Play through lots of those and you'll start to hear where the notes should go.

In fact - google 'pirates of the caribbean lead sheet' and you'll find simple melody-and-chords transcriptions of the music to give you a starting point.

Also - if you wanted 'more powerful', diminished chords or odd voicings are definitely the wrong way to go. Open fifths and octave doubling will get you a more powerful sound, as heard a lot in Pirates, Gladiator etc.


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 29, 2020)

Also, to add another perspective: 

HZ and other high-level film composers have a huge staff of people working for them. What you hear in the final tracks is by no means the result of just him sitting in front of Cubase. I was extremely astonished to learn how many steps and different people are involved in creating such tracks, from delivering compositional ideas / motives to fleshing out the orchestration, mixing, etc. E.g. it is said that he can not read notation, so it is debatable whether studying a lot of music theory will lead you there.

This does not diminish his genius, but just something to be aware of. Expecting to do all of this by yourself is a highly demanding and for most of us mere mortals overwhelming task (but maybe I just project my own too high demands on myself).

A lot of good practical advice in this thread!


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## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 29, 2020)

Hans is a multi instrumentalist and a huge music buff, big Mahler fan etc. Yes, he has a big team working with him but from a music pov he absolutely knows his stuff.


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## Loïc D (Jan 29, 2020)

Plus the pirate song find its roots in the folk Irish/Celtic (drinking) songs.
Might be useful to study that genre beforehand.

Celtic folk harmony & orchestration is a big topic on its own (which I plan to study soon).
I used to live next to an Irish pub so I'm pretty familiar with drinking songs though.


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## Dave Connor (Jan 29, 2020)

Hans Zimmer is a perennial student of music. He is constantly listening and absorbing music of an extremely wide variety from various cultures and has been all his life it seems. The music he writes is informed by this rich background along with his own highly original musical voice and impulses.

So, you may be able to study the surface features of his music (nothing wrong with that) but if you want to get to a similar place I would emulate his self-education process which is a major component of his output. The idea that he is musically ‘uneducated’ is pure nonsense. He is highly educated in the most important way which is an immersion into his chosen art form. I’ve had exchanges with him pointing out how a Bach keyboard concerto’s opening notes were very similar to a Mozart concerto. He was familiar with both works and said he always thought so as well. Same type of conversation I used to have with my college professors.

Elgar was self-taught and he may be the best composer England has ever produced. Most composers had a basic fundamental education in music but it’s what the Mozarts and Beethovens did in their personal study that we ended up hearing in the end.


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## Ben H (Jan 29, 2020)

Have you tried dressing up as a pirate and using a hook to play the parts in, rather than your hands?


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## Loïc D (Jan 29, 2020)

Ben H said:


> Have you tried dressing up as a pirate and using a hook to play the parts in, rather than your hands?


Yo-hoo and a bottle of rum.


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## Ben H (Jan 29, 2020)

LowweeK said:


> Yo-hoo and a bottle of rum.



Rum drinkin' is to be encouraged, of course.


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 29, 2020)

listen to this 100x in a row and then write the first thing that comes to mind:


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