# CD Baby vs. Tunecore vs. Reverbnation (etc)



## Marius Masalar (Dec 19, 2009)

Hey all,

So I'm looking forward in my career and I'm starting to see that there will be opportunities for me to start selling some albums and getting some scores out there on the market, and I've been doing some research into the major distribution helper services on the internet. I've come across CD Baby, Tunecore, and Reverbnation as being major players, with Watunes and a bunch of other smaller ones in there as well.

While I'm going to continue reading up on their individual services and offerings, I wanted to put the question to the masses here and see if anyone has used any of these services, or has an opinion about which one is the best and why. To clarify, I'm looking primarily for digital distribution at this point, though I'd love to get physical discs made and sold as well if a demand arises for them...

Let me know what your experiences have been or if you have any other related insight for me.

Thanks in advance!


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## billval3 (Dec 19, 2009)

I'm interested to hear what everybody has to say as well.


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## JT3_Jon (Dec 19, 2009)

Me too!

I do have some friends that use one of these things (I believe tunecore) and they all said they make enough money to cover the costs of keeping the album online for another year and MAYBE enough profit for a decent dinner, but thats it. 

I wonder though if being available on stores like itunes is better served as a promotional device (i.e. your a "real" musician because you have products to sell) rather than actually trying to make money off it. For example, when directors type your name into google and see you have albums on itunes, amazon, etc that this makes them feel more comfortable hiring you? I would imagine it would, and that alone could be worth the expense...


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## Herman Witkam (Dec 20, 2009)

I got a disc up on iTunes/Amazon/eMusic/Rhapsody etc via Reverbnation in february, and my next release is up for next february, also via Reverbnation. Their service so far as been working well for me. I must say that I didn't hear about Tunecore and its ability to select stores until I had already submitted my 2nd release. It also seems Tunecore saves money, but I don't know how much that would be if multiple stores are selected.

As far as royalties, I've gotten a few nice dinners out of it, but I had my filmmaker clients do promotion for me on social networks :D


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## billval3 (Dec 20, 2009)

JT3_Jon @ Sat Dec 19 said:


> I wonder though if being available on stores like itunes is better served as a promotional device (i.e. your a "real" musician because you have products to sell) rather than actually trying to make money off it. For example, when directors type your name into google and see you have albums on itunes, amazon, etc that this makes them feel more comfortable hiring you? I would imagine it would, and that alone could be worth the expense...



Interesting thought.


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## lux (Dec 20, 2009)

No money. Tunecore, CdBaby and such are distribution services. They allow you to be sold in online stores. You pay a fee, then you are listed and appear in online stores and can be choosen.

What differs from "classic" distribution is that the chances to be picked up in an online store are near to nothing. Zero. 

Reason is: that it costs. No merit in being distributed. You suck? you are distributed. You shine? you are distributed. You half and half? you are distributed.

result is: billions albums listed on online stores. Only limit is done by hard disk capabilities. Actually very unrelevant limits. 

Side is: no one will know a thing about you. 

Thats the truth about autoproduction, the internet era and the whole lot of bullshit about being a self distributed musician today.

my own guess is:

we REALLY need back labels as they were once. We need them way more than in the past because someone need to pick good stuff into a sea. Musicians cant. I never known a single musician, included myself, able to judge himself.

backside is being refused. lot doors closed. "we are not interested". "not up our halley". It happened to many of the greats. Always happened and needs to happen again. Even if sometimes is unfair.

...so i say, try to break the wall with a good, reknowned label or nothing. Otherwise its no money, no fame, nothing apart having fun (that is supposed to be a good reason too)

Luca


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## Niah (Dec 20, 2009)

Ed @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> Can you actually make money on those things?



I think it's just to impress your friends no?

jk  

Im curious to hear what people have to say, I know some folks who have their releases on cdbaby but I have no idea how it's better than tunecore or reverbnation or any other plattform.


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## billval3 (Dec 20, 2009)

lux @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> result is: billions albums listed on online stores. Only limit is done by hard disk capabilities. Actually very unrelevant limits.
> 
> Side is: no one will know a thing about you.
> 
> Thats the truth about autoproduction, the internet era and the whole lot of bullshit about being a self distributed musician today.



It's true that that makes it difficult, but there's no reason why you can't (or shouldn't) market what your selling. There are lots of ways to do so with the Internet, including services that companies like Reverb Nation provide. I'm not saying how hard it is because I haven't actually tried yet. But the point is you have somewhere for people to easily buy your music if they DO hear about you.

I also wonder if it matters what kind of music you're selling and if it fits into a common search. For example, I've wondered if you have Christmas in the title of the song or album, if it will be more likely to be found by someone doing a search for "Christmas" music.


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## nikolas (Dec 20, 2009)

I agree with Lux really! I hate the myspace democracy of equal opportunities! (I sound like a Hitler clown now, ok... I know).

But really the industry did do a lot of cleaning up. Now it's really very difficult to find new things, unless you are introduced by someone... :-/ Freed up a lot of artists, but also made a huge mess.

Then again I'm also in favor of doing something on your own. There's no reason to sign up (your soul) if you are not going to win anything. These days are gone and you could just try and do something by yourself!

(That said, my consideration is aiming to produce and publish my own CDs and mainly books (scores) rather than have lulu do it for me. I prefer to have absolute control over my stuff, even if it means becoming a publishing company, with the good and the bad).


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## lux (Dec 20, 2009)

> It's true that that makes it difficult, but there's no reason why you can't (or shouldn't) market what your selling. There are lots of ways to do so with the Internet, including services that companies like Reverb Nation provide. I'm not saying how hard it is because I haven't actually tried yet. But the point is you have somewhere for people to easily buy your music if they DO hear about you.



It is not difficult. It is impossible.

if no one with a high reputation, high marketing tools and investments, easyness to channels speaks about your music youre next to nothing.

Being heard is a privilege today. People still have just 24 hours a day, mostly occuped with more proficient things than listening stuff online. Your most probable portion of listenings is likely to be counted in dozens. is a simple math, whatever place (forum, marketplace) you can find, that has democratic access, will probably be spanned by million titles. It means that your space for exposure lasts about few minutes before you get submerged by others.

Also, if no one picks best stuff, the place you want to expose yourself on will produce an overall horrid level of music. You, being part of this, will be probably marked as horrid as well, even if your product is good enough.

Nobody earns a penny from dozens. Hundreds thousands is the numbers. 

So, the only way you have is to please someone that counts, a fuckin vip producer or AR manager. Its so hard that one cant even believe. It has always been. People used to chase producers with demos in hands out of shows and such, sent stuff to their granma's, hired privates to find addresses and phones.

Its the old fun game.


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## billval3 (Dec 20, 2009)

lux @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> It is not difficult. It is impossible.



Perhaps we're talking about two different goals here. I don't know what the original poster's goals are, but I think if you already have music in the can it can't really hurt to make it available for sale. I don't think we're talking about getting rich off of it...or even making a comfortable living for that matter. The point is that it's so easy to make your music available these days without the fuss of finding a publisher/distributor. If you have a few friends or fans who will buy it then why not? If my math is correct you would only need to sell something like 6-7 CDs to pay what one of these companies charges you to place your music.


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## lux (Dec 20, 2009)

in all honesty i'm not sure i agree. I see two scenarios:

1) you dont give a fuck about being a rockstar (or a jazz star or a classic star or..). Then you just pack together 40-50 cd's, find a nice artwork as cover and do a great Christmas present to friends and buddies.

2) you want to place your album and make money.

in case 1 youre right. But at the same time i'm not sure what a selling service would serve the scope.

In case 2 i believe we're back to my previous post.


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## Niah (Dec 20, 2009)

I understand what Luca is saying, and if you are just a composer doing film or media work that decides to release some of your stuff without any fan following or anyone outside your client base knowing who you are it can be very difficult to sell anything. And don't expect that these companies will do any promotion for you because they won't even if they promised.

I mean after all these are not labels but rather distributors.

So to me it depends on the type of artist or musician you are in order to take full advantage of these services.
ex: Bands, etc...

But having the opportunity to have your stuff out there without any interference is priceless imo.


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## The_Dark_Knight (Dec 20, 2009)

ww


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## billval3 (Dec 20, 2009)

lux @ Sun Dec 20 said:


> in all honesty i'm not sure i agree. I see two scenarios:
> 
> 1) you dont give a fuck about being a rockstar (or a jazz star or a classic star or..). Then you just pack together 40-50 cd's, find a nice artwork as cover and do a great Christmas present to friends and buddies.
> 
> ...



He said he wants to do MP3s. Countless people would rather pay $9.99 for an album from iTunes because it's cheaper AND faster than going through the process of buying a CD...which they're just going to put on their iPod anyway!  

And I think he was talking about selling to a fan base that he already has (or will have?), so it's not about trying to find more fans by selling a soundtrack album. I don't think anybody really accomplishes that anyway.


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## david robinson (Jan 27, 2010)

hi,
totally wrong about CDBaby.
i'm making a profit from their sales of my CD's, and it's escalating.
planing on releasing more including DVD's.
must look at reverbnation, tho.
if there was a better way, i'd on the case right now.
if you don't have the guts, or money to put it out there, that's very much your own problem.
it's got nothing to with talent, or how many sample libs you use, it ALL marketing.
ppl will STILL buy if they thinks it's good., believe me.
jr.


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## lux (Jan 27, 2010)

well what i mostly mean is:

- Musicians/composers cannot really be left in a democratic self/promotional status. The result of this is that every composer considers his own results as something special. 99.999% times is just crap. Now, self marketing means just finding places where to talk about ourselves and try to scream louder (HEYYYYY!!! LOOK AT MEEE!!) while hundred thousands composers/musicians/kids are doing the same at the exact same time. As a listener i would NEVER get at one of this places to see whats good and new to buy out there. So, in siple words, self promotion is nothing good.

- Good labels are tough. But they pick. And they dont give a shit about how i consider myself good. They decide. As a buyer i tend to afford better on labels as they killed thousand cd's before offering something to choose and buy.

- I kindly invite every musician here to try the challenge and try to be picked by good labels/producers. Can be such a depressing experience but if you really are serious about yourself you need to loose your head at it. Its just unavoidable.

Luca


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## lux (Jan 27, 2010)

mf @ Wed Jan 27 said:


> Lux makes perfect sense.
> 
> John Doe is nobody. Everybody is John Doe. You are are John Doe, you just don't admit you are - otherwise you won't try to sell your CREATIONS on-line.
> 
> ...



+1. You beat me on it.


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## lux (Jan 27, 2010)

but.....

very important is to specify whats our vision of success is. As it really changes a lot. Selling hundreds copies or selling hundreds thousands are really different worlds.


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## JohnG (Jan 27, 2010)

You guys shouldn't encourage people so enthusiastically -- who knows what it could lead to?

I still think "be yourself" is an excellent prescription as a composer. While Lux is right -- it's pretty hard to evaluate oneself objectively -- setting a goal of cultivating something both worthwhile and unique has at least a chance of generating music that creates a deep relationship with fans and, eventually, record labels. 

By contrast, surely few of those who choose to knock off the work or style of "Famous Composer X" can hope realistically for meaningful success, commercial or artistic.

Sadly, the intense pressure in the commercial cauldron out there reminds us that the most indispensable job we have is marketing, not composing.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 27, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Jan 27 said:


> Sadly, the commercial cauldron out there reminds us that the most indispensable job we have is marketing, not composing.



Ain't that the truth. Sadly.


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## lux (Jan 27, 2010)

JohnG @ Wed Jan 27 said:


> You guys shouldn't encourage people so enthusiastically -- who knows what it could lead to?
> 
> I still think "be yourself" is an excellent prescription as a composer. While Lux is right -- it's pretty hard to evaluate oneself objectively -- setting a goal of cultivating something both worthwhile and unique has at least a chance of generating music that creates a deep relationship with fans and, eventually, record labels.
> 
> ...



well i'm not kind of a bummer myself usually. I personally do not identify the road to success with cloning another famous composer nor i think i mentioned this option anywhere. You can be good and be yourself.

But in general i'm very heated against all the pile of bullshit i've read in years about "the new age of self promotion". Most of times money still takes the usual channels, even after a decade. 

I think being sincere with ourselves is the first step for a good and satisfatory career, whatever we identify with success. Problem is that people starts thinking to objectives and success as given, not dependently from inner qualities. And thats not, indeed. Most of times when you personally meet or listen to famous artists that you consider as shit you discover they have something very good and that nothing is so randomly created, even in a plastic wrapped world as the show business.

So i say, it doesnt count as much you shout out loud how much youre good. If nobody that has a reputation tells youre good, you have still way to go. I know i sounds counter-modernist but thats just my opinion of course


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## JohnG (Jan 27, 2010)

Excellent post, Lux.


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## SergeD (Jan 27, 2010)

mf @ Wed Jan 27 said:


> Lux makes perfect sense.
> 
> John Doe is nobody. Everybody is John Doe. You are John Doe, you just don't admit you are - otherwise you wouldn't try to sell your CREATIONS on-line.
> 
> ...



mf,

I'm not an ARTIST nor John Doe, I'm just ALIVE. And really, nobody cares about what I think in this forum  But the fact is if you do not try somewhere your chances to succeed are equal to zero. Is that too much calculations to understand? 

You could stop writing scripts or books or software as it's already done by others..This would change nothing on this planet. But if you are a fighter nobody will dictates you what to do in your life.

Here is your prescription: "Outliers: The Story of Success" from Malcolm Gladwell. Also the movie Gattaca. It's all about why some people are John Doe while others are John Lennon.

By the way 5,000 movies has been proposed at the Slamdance Film Festival this year. Life is good for John Does. 

SergeD


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## mf (Jan 27, 2010)

SergeD @ Wed Jan 27 said:


> mf,
> 
> I'm not an ARTIST nor John Doe, I'm just ALIVE. And really, nobody cares about what I think in this forum  But the fact is if you do not try somewhere your chances to succeed are equal to zero. Is that too much calculations to understand?
> ...


Serge,

I didn't mean to put you down in any way, and I wasn't referring to you personally. If it came across that way, I apologize.

You are right about making the effort to get yourself known. My argument was that "selling" tracks on-line is not the best way to achieve that. To me, that is bulshitting oneself, at best, and a rat race, at worst. It's just not worth it, imo.

Cheers,
mf


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## JohnG (Jan 27, 2010)

how is selling music online bullshitting oneself?

I am lost as to what point you are trying to make.


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## mf (Jan 27, 2010)

John,

Sorry, you're right, I should have explained that. 
Serge's point was that *you* should try somewhere (iTunes, Amazon,) if you want to succeed. To which I responded that getting *your* tracks out there among say John Lennon's tracks is, at best, a delusional strategy for success.
In other words, *you* don't get known by putting *your* music for sale on-line among billions of other John Doe tracks. That's only avoiding the issue, hiding behind a palliative, bullshitting oneself. Imo.
Hope now it makes a bit more sense.


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## SergeD (Jan 27, 2010)

mf @ Wed Jan 27 said:


> SergeD @ Wed Jan 27 said:
> 
> 
> > mf,
> ...




No offense mf. 

An online store is just that, a store. And all the MySpace, FaceBook, Twitter, YouTube hypes are containers for advertising. Thinking too much about this is a ticket for the drugstore. 

SergeD


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## mf (Jan 27, 2010)

SergeD @ Wed Jan 27 said:


> An online store is just that, a store. And all the MySpace, FaceBook, Twitter, YouTube hypes are containers for advertising.


Are they? Do they work? For whom? 
I'm not sure how "too much thinking" may lead to headaches (or to insanity, not sure what you meant), but me thinks that hoping for too much and betting on TuneCore, CD Baby, MySpace and the likes, doesn't look like a sound strategy for success, but more like rambling and gambling.
Just my tuppence.


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## Markus S (Jan 30, 2010)

Hi guys,

Great discussion!

To resume from what I read on the web :

1. A label will be interested in you if you ALREADY have your fan base, most likely not before. It's quite logical, with a fan base, you secure "sells". If the you are competing with an artist that has, say 10.000 fans, and you have non, well, first that proves that his product "works", and secondly, it secures sells of all sort of stuff related to the group.

It's like for us with the agents : they are willing to work with you, when you don't need them anymore.

2. The best way to auto promote seems to be the life performance. There you can give your name and webspace, and CD baby address and all of it to potential "fans". Now that doesn't help us a lot in film scoring, but even electronic music in any form can be performed live. Maybe take your samples on stage and write an orchestral piece, in the evening.. hehe.. not sure if that would make a great performance.. 

Promotion on the Internet is possible, but it's a looot of work, and requires quite some knowledge of the how the www works. (in order for people to find your music - it's the same problem as if you sold books on cooking). You can get your performance on youtube, your cd available, our tracks on streaming and download etc., create related blogs, try to promote yourself at the fan base of another group (don't we all love the "check out my music" mails and random friend requests on myspace).

If you are interested in this stuff, read this http://www.musicbizacademy.com/bookstor ... emusic.htm

The guy is sure great at promoting himself, and he has a "success story" to tell. He will make you buy his book for it, though - told you he was great at promoting. 

It becomes interesting when a group that is ALREADY famous skips the label, as do the Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead. Here is really the new marketing model, if you ask me : they skip the label, and live very well with it. But they were famous before , so it's a little different. But they are actually doing the work of the label themselves, mostly via the Internet, and they sure bring the talent for it with them.

So to resume : CD baby, itunes is great, but mainly to sell discs (distribution), not necessarily to promote your work.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Jan 30, 2010)

> Are they? Do they work? For whom?
> I'm not sure how "too much thinking" may lead to headaches (or to insanity, not sure what you meant), but me thinks that hoping for too much and betting on TuneCore, CD Baby, MySpace and the likes, doesn't look like ò‰9   ÂZÑ‰9   ÂZÒ‰9   ÂZÓ‰9   ÂZÔ‰9   ÂZÕ‰9   ÂZÖ‰9   ÂZ×‰9   ÂZØ‰9   ÂZÙ‰9   ÂZÚ‰9   ÂZÛ‰9   ÂZÜ‰9   ÂZÝ‰9   ÂZÞ‰9   ÂZß‰9   ÂZà‰9   ÂZá‰9   ÂZâ‰9   ÂZã‰9   ÂZä‰9   ÂZå‰9   ÂZæ‰9   ÂZç‰9   ÂZè‰9   ÂZé‰9   ÂZê‰9   ÂZë‰:   ÂZì‰:   ÂZí‰:   ÂZî‰:   ÂZï‰:   ÂZð‰:   ÂZñ‰:   ÂZò‰:   ÂZó‰:   ÂZô‰:   ÂZõ‰:   ÂZö‰:   ÂZ÷‰:   ÂZø‰:   ÂZù‰:   ÂZú‰:   ÂZû‰:   ÂZü‰:   ÂZý


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