# Ultraman (Ultra Galaxy Legends)



## mverta (Jan 3, 2010)

Hello, everyone -

I am currently streaming a few cues from my score for Ultraman (_Ultra Galaxy Legends_) from Warner Bros. Pictures/Tsuburaya Japan on a private server:

http://sc2.spacialnet.com:28174/listen.pls (Radio Verta)

The score is 84 minutes in length, entirely virtual, composed in just over 5 weeks in the summer of 2009. It utilizes a standard symphonic palette of instruments from all the "usual suspects" libraries, and was sequenced, edited, and mixed entirely in Pro Tools 8. The final mix was performed by Shawn Murphy at James Newton-Howard Studios in October, 2009.

The film is in the middle of its theatrical run in Japan right now, and the official soundtrack is available from Sony via Japanese distributors like Amazon.


Best,

_Mike


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 3, 2010)

Truly outstanding!
J


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 3, 2010)

Sounds fantastic Mike! Loving it. =o =o =o


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## synergy543 (Jan 3, 2010)

Mike, the horns (and the way you use them) are truly beautiful. And you keep the interest flowing - a movie by itself without the picture.

Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed it very much.

Greg


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 3, 2010)

Haha! RadioVerta, love it! How's the film doing in Japan Mike? When do you think it will come to America? Ultraman is a childhood hero of mine, I'd love to see it, but I preferred the silver Ultraman, one of the originals.


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## A/V4U (Jan 3, 2010)

Great work. Love listening.


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 3, 2010)

This is really well realized. 5 weeks for 84 minutes of amazingly produced orchestral mock ups that sound this good is phenomenal! There are bits of all the greats in here with your own take on them, which is cool.
This is so un-Japanese as well. Very Hollywood. Again -- very well done!
J


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## sherief83 (Jan 3, 2010)

I like the main title! thanks for sharing. could you share with us what you used? specifically for brass and strings.


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## mverta (Jan 3, 2010)

My orchestra is a really eclectic mix of libraries and patches, nearly all custom. Every patch I use has Modwheel control over volume/dynamics, and usually within that is a custrom velocity curve to match my playing style. Also, I've gone in in some cases and retuned samples, that sort of thing. But it's a mixture of ProjectSAM Brass, plus some SonicImplants Brass, plus some VSL Brass, and pretty much the same story throughout each section, with a bunch of London Orchestral Percussion in there, too, and the True Strike stuff, of course. I've honestly built and rebuilt and tweaked it so much, I couldn't off the top of my head tell you what exactly I use without looking, but I have 5 Gigastudio PC's absolutely running to the hilt, plus 3 instances of Kontakt and Vienna Ensemble running on my host Mac. The strings for this soundtrack were primarily Vienna Appassionata with kisses of older Vienna libraries, SonicImplants, and even a couple of stripped-down Symphobia patches.




Guy Bacos @ Sun Jan 03 said:


> Ultraman is a childhood hero of mine, I'd love to see it, but I preferred the silver Ultraman, one of the originals.




He's in the movie!; Ultraseven, too. 


_Mike


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## stevenson-again (Jan 4, 2010)

jesus this is stunning. not sure the 128kbps is doing the sound much justice, but it is always a good sign if despite the lofi sound it still has the capacity to knock your socks off.

how did you get it shawn btw? did you bounce out the tracks as audio files and present it to him like that premixed for tweaking?

absolutely brilliant stuff.


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## germancomponist (Jan 4, 2010)

This sounds so great, Mike! As well as your compositions are.

Thanks for sharing!

Gunther


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## Rob (Jan 4, 2010)

that's fantastic, Mike!


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 4, 2010)

Great job Mike as I've come to expect from you. Lots of ear candy in there.

Aside from the sonic template - which you've obviously spent some time on - was your liberal use of orchestration and instrumental ornamentation techniques which I found refreshing. 

I'm of the opinion that samples can only get you so far, the rest of the way is balanced out by writing chops, orchestration, mockup & mix. Seems there are always compromises when balancing out mockup against deadlines. Great solutions Mike, here's to a great new year for you!


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## Sid_Barnhoorn (Jan 4, 2010)

Hey Mike, this sounds absolutely excellent. Great job. Excellent. 

Cheers,
Sid


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## mverta (Jan 4, 2010)

Thank you guys for the kind words - I'm humbled and grateful you're enjoying the work!




stevenson-again @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> how did you get it shawn btw? did you bounce out the tracks as audio files and present it to him like that premixed for tweaking?




The Pro Tools session has 100+ MIDI instrument tracks, and then several audio input tracks, which are then grouped into aux tracks by section. So, for example, my horn samples are actually coming partially from one Gigastudio PC, and partially from a Vienna Ensemble plug-in. There are obviously two audio input tracks needed there, but I route those tracks' outputs to a single aux input (Horns) which is where the horns' Alitiverb lies. So in this way, I only need one Alitiverb per section (except for percussion, which I use 3 for - basically close, medium and far). I think there's something like 48 audio input tracks in the session. 

All the audio comes in digitally, optically; I don't have any analog in the chain. But mix-wise, it is sort of "pre-mixed," obviously, because I'm monitoring it the way I want it balanced already. So what Shawn got were those session files, with all the 48 audio tracks printed, and the MIDI stripped out. Though at home I monitor stereo, he had a lot of re-routing to do for the 5.1 mix, but it went very smoothly.

Speaking of which, this was the first time I've sequenced in Pro Tools, having formerly been a life-long Performer user since v1.0. Despite MOTU's insistence on having industry-leading Pro Tools support, I've not been able to use Performer properly with my Pro Tools hardware since v6.0, so I've had to permanently leave the platform. However, Pro Tools performed flawlessly for the entire process and I never missed my old sequencer. In fact, for all the MIDI data, audio data, video running, Altiverbs, v.i. plugins, EQ's, etc., I never had a hang, crash, drop; nothing. It was great.


_Mike


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## choc0thrax (Jan 4, 2010)

Only listened to a couple minutes but sounded pretty good. Could've sworn I was listening to Brian Tyler's "Summon the Worms" for a moment there. Heh.


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## Jaap (Jan 4, 2010)

Really great, enjoyed every minute!


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## Aaron Sapp (Jan 4, 2010)

Fantastic job, Mike. Kind of made me sick to my stomach when I read you had five weeks to do 80+ minutes of polished, sequenced music. 18 hour days?


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## mverta (Jan 4, 2010)

Aaron Sapp @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> Fantastic job, Mike. Kind of made me sick to my stomach when I read you had five weeks to do 80+ minutes of polished, sequenced music. 18 hour days?



18 hours would've been a short day.  Honestly, I've never had to go that fast before, and I don't think I'd attempt to again; I rarely slept. The only upside to having that sort of time restriction is that one has to follow their first instincts because there simply isn't time to revise and rethink. So in that way, it encourages extreme focus. But conversely, there are just some ideas which need time to mature, and a certain amount of distance from the work to see it objectively. 


_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

Mike, would you do it again, in the same conditions and money, knowing what you know now?


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## mverta (Jan 4, 2010)

I don't have any regrets, if that's what you're asking. But for a sequel, for example, I'd definitely insist on more time. 

_Mike


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## gsilbers (Jan 4, 2010)

saw the trialer. it sure stayed true to the original version. 
great music. 

would like to know more about the custom patches. 
do mean by custom patches that you tweeked the original patches from those libraries and made them custom to your needs? 

id like to ask more about the music side of it but there is soo much i wouldnt know where to start, 
but what temp score or "inspiration" music did you use? 

also seems like each cue is very very long. 
incredibly long. seems it would cover ALL the movie. is that so?


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## mverta (Jan 4, 2010)

gsilbers @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> do mean by custom patches that you tweeked the original patches from those libraries and made them custom to your needs?



Yes. Sometimes in subtle ways, other times in radical ways. In a couple of instances, I retuned and re-eq'd individual samples. I notice a lot of libraries suffer from having completely unnatural tonal qualities across the range of dynamics. For example, it's like they push the microphone up the bell of the horn for pp samples, and then pull the microphone 5 feet away for fff samples. The result is that the entire sonic character of the instrument seems to change in a totally unrealistic way across the dynamic range, which also frustrates any single EQ setting you might be after. So I would occasionally re-balance the internal sample EQ to make the instrument more predictable and believable across a wider range of dynamics.




gsilbers @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> but what temp score or "inspiration" music did you use?


 The film was never temp'd. Because of the extremely short schedule, I received the film with no audio track save the dialog and some temp. fx. I prefer that, actually.



gsilbers @ Mon Jan 04 said:


> also seems like each cue is very very long. incredibly long. seems it would cover ALL the movie. is that so?



The film is 90 minutes, with 84 minutes of score. So yes, it's nearly wall-to-wall. The film is extremely action-heavy, which the director plays out in a nearly operatic, or balletic fashion, so we both felt it was wise to treat it almost like a silent movie; otherwise, it can sort of degenerate into 90 minutes of monotonous punching. The truth is, there were many uber-dramatic things happening in the story, thematically, so it could support grandiose musical statements, but structurally I needed to keep it evolving, changing, and telling a story internally. The score is probably more symphonic than anything; one might call it "cine-symphonic." That's just as well, I suppose, as it's a structural quality I find in the film scores which inspired me as a kid, and continue to still.


_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 4, 2010)

I remember when I was a kid I wouldn't miss an episode of Ultraman and Batman. 
I recall this one episode because of a funny moment. As I remember, the guy would raise his arm up high holding some special object which turned him into Ultraman in seconds. But there was one episode as he did that, he realized he was holding his spoon instead!! It sounds silly saying like that but it was hysterical because it was such a critical moment!

Anybody remembers this?

Anyway, small world.


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## gsilbers (Jan 5, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> I remember when I was a kid I wouldn't miss an episode of Ultraman and Batman.
> I recall this one episode because of a funny moment. As I remember, the guy would raise his arm up high holding some special object which turned him into Ultraman in seconds. But there was one episode as he did that, he realized he was holding his spoon instead!! It sounds silly saying like that but it was hysterical because it was such a critical moment!
> 
> Anybody remembers this?
> ...



did u grow up in the states? 
cause i didnt but now i that im here i ask people here if they know about ultraman and not many do.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 5, 2010)

I grew up in Montreal, Ultraman is so fresh in my mind. In fact about 6 months ago, I went on YouTube found tons of videos of Ultraman, but it's not the same anymore, as a child it was very impressive and seemed so real, mind you the standards were different then. But I still can't wait to see this one with all the new technology update!


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## Studio E (Jan 5, 2010)

Wow Mike,

What you have done in 5 weeks, I wish I could do in a year. This sounds outstanding. Do you take much time to look at the whole film to set out a development of an overall theme. Such as introducing small parts of a theme here and there before really cranking into the full-out deal later. This sounds SO action packed, it seems as though it would be really difficult to keep up the intensity for so long and still keep it fresh and not fatiguing. Great job! A true inspiration.


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## mverta (Jan 5, 2010)

The Main Title theme appears only in the opening credits, and then not fleshed out again until an hour into the movie, when the character for whom it's written makes his first real appearance. But it is peppered liberally throughout that first hour when events or hints at his identity/purpose occur. The _idea _of that was certainly in my mind from the outset, but I didn't have the actual main theme written until late in the process, so there was quite a bit of going-back-and-inserting-it that went on. The other central motif, which is a 3-note subject, I did have at the very beginning. 

For that second motif, at the start of the process, with a very daunting blank canvas ahead of me and little time, I just decided on something arbitrary as a starting point: "Ultraman has three syllables in it, so I'll make the motif 3 notes." Each syllable/note is likewise a three-note chord. Because it was a Japanese film, and "Ultraman" in Japanese is four syllables (They say it, "Urutoraman"), I decided that the three-note chords would be made up of notes a 4th apart. Now, I say that like it was all just a word game, but that's a bit disingenuous; I knew that the open-4th's thing would give me a lot of harmonic freedom, because it doesn't squarely commit to minor or major on its own, so it's very flexible. Plus, it tends to have a heroic/regal quality to it inherently, and is good for fanfares, etc. So it gave me a launching point. 



_Mike


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## StrangeCat (Jan 5, 2010)

It must have been many sleepless nights! Also that must be hard when your not doing much scoring on paper. Composing in just a sequencer is always difficult for me when I can't see any notes.

I love this interview!

http://www.scifijapan.com/articles/2009/12/23/interview-mega-monster-battle-ultra-galaxy-composer-mike-verta/ (http://www.scifijapan.com/articles/2009 ... ike-verta/)

Amazing Job Mike Mverta! Really amazing with the time you did it in! 
You must have your template down like the back of your hand to do this.

I was lurking a certain forum when you posted what you were working on. 

Now I find this interesting that it is wall to wall music, that there is no place where it stops. Hollywood films have to have an underscore and the music just continues and continues. It's nice when there are periods of silence, like in music you need periods(cadences stops whatever)of silence. They really wanted a Hollywood sound for this film.

Also there not throughing in the Jpop song in the middle of the Show? A lot of times the motif from the song becomes the motif of a character , or vise/versa and that is arranged for something or orchestrated as the main theme. 


I hope to hear your work in more Films.


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## StrangeCat (Jan 5, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> The Main Title theme appears only in the opening credits, and then not fleshed out again until an hour into the movie, when the character for whom it's written makes his first real appearance. But it is peppered liberally throughout that first hour when events or hints at his identity/purpose occur. The _idea _of that was certainly in my mind from the outset, but I didn't have the actual main theme written until late in the process, so there was quite a bit of going-back-and-inserting-it that went on. The other central motif, which is a 3-note subject, I did have at the very beginning.
> 
> For that second motif, at the start of the process, with a very daunting blank canvas ahead of me and little time, I just decided on something arbitrary as a starting point: "Ultraman has three syllables in it, so I'll make the motif 3 notes." Each syllable/note is likewise a three-note chord. Because it was a Japanese film, and "Ultraman" in Japanese is four syllables (They say it, "Urutoraman"), I decided that the three-note chords would be made up of notes a 4th apart. Now, I say that like it was all just a word game, but that's a bit disingenuous; I knew that the open-4th's thing would give me a lot of harmonic freedom, because it doesn't squarely commit to minor or major on its own, so it's very flexible. Plus, it tends to have a heroic/regal quality to it inherently, and is good for fanfares, etc. So it gave me a launching point.
> 
> ...



This is Brilliant!


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## mverta (Jan 5, 2010)

StrangeCat @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> Also that must be hard when your not doing much scoring on paper. Composing in just a sequencer is always difficult for me when I can't see any notes.



Yes, this was very difficult; however, I used a scorepad constantly - I will often flesh-out orchestration ideas by merely scribbling shapes on the appropriate staves just so I can get a bird's-eye view of the layout. Since my Pro Tools session is too large to see all at once on the display, I find this sort of "plan view" of the entire orchestra crucial.


_Mike


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## StrangeCat (Jan 6, 2010)

mverta @ Tue Jan 05 said:


> StrangeCat @ Tue Jan 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Also that must be hard when your not doing much scoring on paper. Composing in just a sequencer is always difficult for me when I can't see any notes.
> ...



That makes a lot of sense.


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## WillMah Gold (Jan 6, 2010)

Dear Mike,

:shock: wow, SO impressive! Again! And it is just such a joy, to hear so much music that is in the style of my (or ours) most beloved filmcomposers, and not in the omnipresent zimmerish "drumloop + some horns" stuff.

Great, great stuff! :D


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## sunnykim (Jan 6, 2010)

Outstanding, fantastic!!!!!
Congratulations, Mike.
I wish I would do it in such a short time. 
Could you give any advice on altiverb's setting for each instrumental sections?
Also, what dynamic plugins are you using on master input for rough mix before final mixing?


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## mverta (Jan 7, 2010)

For this soundtrack, we used Altiverb Todd-AO exclusively. There were a number of EQ's inline in various configurations - far too many to remember, and I don't have a system big enough to open the master sessions on - I use an HD3 at home, and we mixed on what would be at least an HD6. Monitoring-wise, I tend to use a bit of Master X3 on the final, but not always; it's bypassed as often as not.


_Mike


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## Angel (Jan 7, 2010)

brilliant Mr. Verta 
I love the overall sound, the composition and the damn good orchestration.

I like the score because it is fully composed and arranged, not played in maniac-2-hands-on-the-keyboard-smashing-mode adding some good transient-rich drumlibs 

That's truely wonderful writing! And I listen to Radio Verta all day even while I am composing 

All the best,
Angel


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## theheresy (Jan 7, 2010)

and to think that mike gets blasted on the VSL forums for being a hackneyed pastiche composing 2nd tier john williams, etc, etc...so many jealous people in this world. this score proves mike verta is one of the premiere compositional talents in the world!!!
don't know many others besides him and james peterson that can pull this stuff off as convincingly. hey mike will you please post those two star trek cues you did, your interpretation of the original and then the hans zimmer-esque new startrek version


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 7, 2010)

theheresy @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> and to think that mike gets blasted on the VSL forums for being a hackneyed pastiche composing 2nd tier john williams, etc, etc...



Kind of a cheap shot there on the VSL forum....

Mike got hundreds of congratulations on VSL.


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## mverta (Jan 7, 2010)

Well, technically, I have been "blasted" on the VSL forum occasionally by basically two guys who post the same thing over and over - it has been otherwise an almost entirely inspiring and encouraging experience posting there. But as grateful as I am when people enjoy my music, I appreciate criticism, too. There is often useful stuff in there. One day when I was 7 years old my mother told me one of my pieces sucked, and that's literally the reason I can write melodies today; she was unimpressed by the stark chord progressions which were otherwise totally satisfying to me at the time. 

The limit of one's musical growth, I feel, is proportional to their ability to handle and accept criticism - certainly if one's goal is mainstream acceptance. But one also needs to develop a good sense for which criticisms are truly valid, and how much of the mainstream opinion they represent. 

The motto of this site, "Musicians helping musicians," certainly appeals to the better angels of our nature to provide constructive feedback in all forms. But as with all noble human endeavors of lofty intent, you're inevitably going to end up with a few conspicuously reductive, likely personally-motivated haters in the group. 

You have to roll with it; music would suck if it was purely major chords, too.



_Mike


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## theheresy (Jan 7, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> theheresy @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > and to think that mike gets blasted on the VSL forums for being a hackneyed pastiche composing 2nd tier john williams, etc, etc...
> ...



don't take it that way, VSL is my favorite developer by far and I'm a proud supporter of them and their forums, but let's be honest the "two" bullies mike's referring to which I'm assuming are William and Paul something or other, are really annoying and egregiously gratuitous in their tired old jaded cynicism. but anyway, not to derail this thread with that nonsense...
great job Mike

a few questions for you (random stream of consciousness style)

1. you've been one of the few detractors of symphobia string samples in mockups at the top level that I can think of, meaning you don't much use symphobia at all it seems and one of the few proponents of VSL strings instead, albeit the appassionatas. Can you explain more why you aren't that big into symphobia or am I misunderstanding you from previous things I read? 

2. you seem to be one of the few guys at the top also that's not LASS crazy, I haven't heard you mention or use LASS at all, is there a particular reason for that also?? Do you prefer appassionatas to LASS or just haven't had the time and/or money for LASS yet?

3. is there any hollywoodwinds in this ultra man score and have you been using hollywoodwinds at all also or have you not jumped on that bandwagon yet either? 

4. Do you ever use ANY electronic/synth elements in your scores i.e. the omnispheres and other pad producing products of the world?

5. great job once again


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 7, 2010)

mverta @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> One day when I was 7 years old my mother told me one of my pieces sucked, and that's literally the reason I can write melodies today; she was unimpressed by the stark chord progressions which were otherwise totally satisfying to me at the time.



Hey Mike, Your Ultraman score totally sucks! Now you could thanks me when your next score will be even greater! (If that's possible)


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## mverta (Jan 7, 2010)

theheresy @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> 1. you've been one of the few detractors of symphobia string samples in mockups at the top level that I can think of, meaning you don't much use symphobia at all it seems and one of the few proponents of VSL strings instead, albeit the appassionatas. Can you explain more why you aren't that big into symphobia or am I misunderstanding you from previous things I read?



You misunderstood; what I'm generally not a fan of are push-button samples/layers, like those found in abundance in Symphobia, but the samples themselves are fine. Most stacks are limited or unrealistic but for a few notes, and "here is a sample of an orchestra playing a cluster/chord" is often not used for convenience, but by people who don't actually know how to write clusters/fx, etc., and it shows. I stripped down a few Symphobia patches to use elements from for _Ultra Galaxy Legends_, and I even used one of the cluster presets I was just talking about, but what I have a general philosophical issue with is the way these "monkey-at-the-switch" loops/samples are dumbing-down the art.



theheresy @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> 2. you seem to be one of the few guys at the top also that's not LASS crazy, I haven't heard you mention or use LASS at all, is there a particular reason for that also?? Do you prefer appassionatas to LASS or just haven't had the time and/or money for LASS yet?



Just haven't tried them yet; ditto for Hollywood Winds. I must be missing something with LASS because I'm not hearing yet what's so great about them, but I reserve all judgements until I have hands-on. You know, usually, I'll take playability over anything else. I also hope Hollywood Winds isn't loaded with pre-built layers and stackings; I hate that. They're almost never "right," orchestrationally, beyond a few notes.




theheresy @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> 4. Do you ever use ANY electronic/synth elements in your scores i.e. the omnispheres and other pad producing products of the world?



There's one pad-y thing in _UGL_, and that's it. I grew up in the 80's, with a room full of synths on Apache A-Frame stands and my DX-7 up front doing all that keyboard crap. I'm sort of over it. For the occasional color, I'll use an electronic element, but it's rare. I much prefer the organic, acoustic world of instruments to the oscillator-driven one. 


Thanks again for all the kind words; I truly appreciate it, and I'm glad you're enjoying the work. You, too, Guy  Inspiring. 


_Mike


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## stevenson-again (Jan 7, 2010)

> but what I have a general philosophical issue with is the way these "monkey-at-the-switch" loops/samples are dumbing-down the art.



that's interesting...i know what you mean. but i have to say some of those effects can get you right through a bunch of seconds that are going to be swamped with sound FX anyway and leave a few more precious hours to really milk an emotional scene that will be heard. never-the-less, like you i prefer to write my own FX especially if there is a live record involved, which happily there is from time to time.

i am heartily fed up with them though, having over used them to death. they fall into the same category as all those distorted reality patches which are still brilliant even now, but make me ache with irritation that i don;t have time to program something new. that said, i don't think i will ever be able to near 'rusty spoke' ever again - and i do my best to avoid 'void'.



> ust haven't tried them yet; ditto for Hollywood Winds.



yeah i don't really go for the hollywood winds concept. that sort of thing is realtively easy to program IMO. just need maybe decent libs to pull them off.


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## synergy543 (Jan 7, 2010)

stevenson-again @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> > ust haven't tried them yet; ditto for Hollywood Winds.
> 
> 
> 
> yeah i don't really go for the hollywood winds concept. that sort of thing is realtively easy to program IMO. just need maybe decent libs to pull them off.


Really? I've tried emulating some of the phrases in Hollywoodwinds with some of the "best of the bestest" libs and I find the phrasing of some lines to be quite difficult to emulate with individual instrument samples. There is something really different about a note being sampled singly by itself and one being played "in context" in a musical phrase. Now granted, I'm not that good, but it does seem to me that I hear many phrases in musical context that I could not figure out how to emulate with samples - regardless of programming extra filters and cc controllers, or doubling lines to get more slurring. One of the most interesting elements (which is rare to find in any library even in a single note) is the swelling of a notes within a phrase - I can only emulate this by adding filters and mod controllers but its a poor emulation and it still isn't the same.

Mike, somehow your work comes the closest to anything I've heard that captures the phrasing of individual lines and the smooth ensemble balance that only the very finest of orchestras can achieve (Berlin, Chicago) listening to each other and balancing in realtime. And yet, what puzzles me the most is that you're one guy laying down tracks one at a time. So I can't figure how how you add expression to each line and yet, in the end, maintain such a beatiful ensemble balance. I can crank your mix up (and I have a very loud system) and it doesn't become painful to my ears as so many mixes do. The balance you achieved is so consitently smooth, its truly amazing.


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2010)

synergy543 @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> stevenson-again @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > > ust haven't tried them yet; ditto for Hollywood Winds.
> ...




well hollywood winds as lass are abit different in termns that they are not loops per se but a user can define the parameters of phrases found in dificult to perform with samples orchestra devices. 
u do have more control than a 1-modwheel parameter at a time . which makes it cool (LASS) 
the divisi is good and the sounds well, itas dry ala vsl .


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2010)

mverta @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> theheresy @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > 1. you've been one of the few detractors of symphobia string samples in mockups at the top level that I can think of, meaning you don't much use symphobia at all it seems and one of the few proponents of VSL strings instead, albeit the appassionatas. Can you explain more why you aren't that big into symphobia or am I misunderstanding you from previous things I read?
> ...



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## theheresy (Jan 7, 2010)

RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> mverta @ Thu Jan 07 said:
> 
> 
> > One day when I was 7 years old my mother told me one of my pieces sucked, and that's literally the reason I can write melodies today...
> ...



I believe you need the popular VLC player or realplayer to play the .pls file.


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## theheresy (Jan 7, 2010)

Mike I understand your stance now on symphobia. 
about LASS: I just would have thought that all the rage about that divisi stuff would have been right up your alley because you're one of the few guys out there (or in here for that matter) that actually has the raw CHOPS to be able to utilize divisi string writing to their full potential. 

By the way the only thing that stood out to me from your recording was the french horns, they still sound very synthy and fake to me. Obviously this is no fault of yours or your programming, I just find it strange why the french horn in particular seems to be amongst the hardest instruments to program similar to strings and the human voice. Not sure why but I've never heard a french horn library yet that sounded even remotely realistic to me. When I hear horns they sound more like the 80's crap from a Vangelis soundtrack, anyone else agree with me on this? On the other hand everything else sounded exceedingly good including the strings.


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## theheresy (Jan 7, 2010)

oh and Mike yes that's exactly what hollywoodwinds is, it's all prerecorded runs, rips, phrases, scales, chords only a la symphobia but with woodwinds only.


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## theheresy (Jan 7, 2010)

oh and another thing Mike, did you utilize any orchestrators or score programmers for this project with such a short deadline? Or did you conceive, program, sequence, orchestrate everything yourself step by step?


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## mverta (Jan 7, 2010)

gsilbers @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> but what i find most dificult is the.. hmm devices i guess.. and changes..
> which u do a lot on those 12 minute cues >8o and w/o repetitions !
> how did u learn or what did u study that made u so proficient on those (or that style)
> i guess john william would be one but did u see his scores? only by listening? some of the classics? .




The primary thing which sets composers like John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Bernard Herrmann etc., aside from others is the structure of their film music compositions. The further back in film history you go, the more composers of the era had symphonic training - as though they were going to be concert composers. They studied, and were masters of, long-form writing. 

Long-form symphonic theme-and-development writing is orders of magnitude more complex than the sort of repetitious, ostinato-based, short-cue writing heard in 99% of scores today. This is largely because few composers nowadays are willing to study for decades to attain proficiency in long-form composing, which is nonetheless the hallmark of most of the greatest film scores in the last 100+ years, and usually abundant in the scores which inspire people most.

Long-form symphonic writing has the ability to stand completely on its own, musically; to tell a complete and satisfying story. Inherent in that is the sort of constantly-evolving quality you mention. If you learn long form, and can adapt it to simultaneously follow scene cues, well that's the Holy Grail. When a score is able to serve its internal needs for self-supporting structure, while still following a picture edit and the whims of a director, it is a thing of beauty, and arguably the balancing act which should permanently silence critics of film music as "watered down," versions of "real [concert] music."



John Williams has left an indelible mark on film scoring and in film music history. His orchestral music has entered the lexicon, and is familiar to the "everyman" in ways few composers ever achieve. But like all of us, John has stood on the shoulders of giants. If you know the orchestral symphonic repertoire, his influences are clear and present - from such obvious quotations as Hanson's Romantic Symphony for _E.T. _and myriad "inspirations" from Holst and Stravinsky in _Star Wars_, to countless near-lifts from Schumann, Barber, Penderecki, Ravel... the list goes on and on.


It was absolutely the work of John Williams which first inspired me, but I soon learned where he learned his style from. Perhaps it's because we're both Jazz pianists, but it turned out (largely) that I like the same composers he does, and so it is more accurate to say similarities in our sounds are because we both drink from the same well, stylistically. However, what I have learned _more_ from John's music than from others is the specific way to weave long-form concert ideas into a cue-based score environment. John Williams is decades ahead, experientially - I hope one day to have a fraction of his mastery. I will die trying.


So in short, no, I rarely study John Williams scores. They're usually concert versions of film cues, and since the structure of the film cues is what's most compelling, they're not especially useful. For things like the orchestration and devices, flourishes and dynamics, I study the scores _he_ studies - jaw-droppingly masterful works from composers like Stravinsky and Shostakovich, who have written such transcendently powerful music I'm not sure the world will ever again hear their equals. We're talking about basically the opposite end of the quality spectrum from what passes for film music today.







theheresy @ Thu Jan 07 said:


> oh and another thing Mike, did you utilize any orchestrators or score programmers for this project with such a short deadline? Or did you conceive, program, sequence, orchestrate everything yourself step by step?




It was a one-man show this time. 


_Mike


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## synthetic (Jan 8, 2010)

Amazing stuff as always, truly inspiring. I love the string writing in 3m1. 

I love what you're saying about studying Williams' influences, rather than his own scores. Maybe you'll develop your own sound in the process. Study the work of a composer who spent years on a piece rather than days! Though I'll admit to going over his Superman, Raiders and Harry Potter scores very closely. 

I'd like to hear more about what you mean by "Long-form symphonic writing." Can you give me some examples? Do you mean developing a theme into different moods, the orchestration, both of these? 

Going by what you've written, I think you would like LASS more than Hollywood Winds. HWW is all sections playing together, where LASS has all of the great Divisi sections. Very playable. I haven't touched any VSL or Sonic Implants samples since I installed them.


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## mverta (Jan 8, 2010)

Virtually all symphonies are long-form compositions. The structural nature of symphonic writing can be a bit elusive to define, though "sonata form" is as good a place to start as any, I suppose, but the essence of the idea is that there are central subjects/motifs/themes, etc., which harmonically ebb and flow over long periods of development.

It is simpler to acknowledge that music is literally a language. One can say interesting things in short little soundbites, but more often the most interesting stories take longer to tell.

For film scores, especially, the music underscores a narrative - a long-form narrative. A 120-minute movie is all about the same thing(s) with the same theme(s), but these develop over the course of two hours without ever literally repeating scenes, for example. Yet, so much film music fails to follow this narrative structure, nowadays. A long-form, symphonic film score simply mimics what the writer, director, and editor have done with their subjects - stated themes, and then woven, changed, and developed the idea dramatically over the course of the picture. This is how it used to be, in the "good ol' days," but to do it, the composer has to have mastery of symphonic writing. And that's difficult, and takes an ass-ton of study.

So what you have right now, musically speaking, are a lot of composers who can think of a few semi-interesting soundbites, and then just repeat them for minutes on end, but have little else to say, and no vocabulary to say it with anyway. Ultimately, this is is why they are still packing the Hollywood Bowl to listen to John Williams Jaws/Star Wars/Raiders music 30 years later, and there are no such events for the scores to Transformers, or Batman Begins/TDK, or Spider-Man, or virtually any other blockbuster-mega-hit-billion-dollar, disposable film, with disposable music. Ultimately, it is the substantive work which generates the substantial interest. 

Wow, no kidding...




_Mike


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## synthetic (Jan 8, 2010)

Good stuff. Any books about symphonic writing that you know of? Besides studying every score you can, of course.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 8, 2010)

mverta @ Fri Jan 08 said:


> So what you have right now, musically speaking, are a lot of composers who can think of a few semi-interesting soundbites, and then just repeat them for minutes on end, but have little else to say, and no vocabulary to say it with anyway. Ultimately, this is is why they are still packing the Hollywood Bowl to listen to John Williams Jaws/Star Wars/Raiders music 30 years later, and there are no such events for the scores to Transformers, or Batman Begins/TDK, or Spider-Man, or virtually any other blockbuster-mega-hit-billion-dollar, disposable film, with disposable music. Ultimately, it is the substantive work which generates the substantial interest.
> 
> Wow, no kidding...
> 
> ...



Interesting. 

Mike, can I ask you how you feel about Zimmer's music?


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## mverta (Jan 8, 2010)

synthetic @ Fri Jan 08 said:


> Good stuff. Any books about symphonic writing that you know of? Besides studying every score you can, of course.



Honestly, nothing that I'd recommend. Studying scores, listening, internalizing is always the first step. If you end up going for private tutoring or training, it's always best to have your teacher organizing and clarifying things you know from experience; things you've begun to draw associations and derive patterns from.

_Mike


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## mverta (Jan 8, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 08 said:


> Mike, can I ask you how you feel about Zimmer's music?




Hans Zimmer and I practice very different versions of the same craft. He has been wildly successful financially, and has provided many great opportunities for young composers to make money in a difficult field.



_Mike


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 8, 2010)

Ok, fair answer. A bit political, but I can dig. :D


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## theheresy (Jan 9, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Jan 08 said:


> Ok, fair answer. A bit political, but I can dig. :D



Why would you even need to ask him on his views of Zimmer? It's an obvious GIVEN that composers of Mike's stature and skill will think a certain way about composers like Zimmer. Would you ask Rembrandt what he thought of Jackson Pollock's work if they lived in the same time?
Don't worry Mike, most of us true connoisseurs know where the real skill lies and who possesses it and who doesn't


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## mverta (Jan 14, 2010)

First off, I want to thank everyone for their kind words and participation in the thread - I truly appreciate it. I've been getting a lot of email requests for more samples of my v.i. work, so I put some together in a separate thread found here. Thanks again!


_Mike


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## mverta (Apr 23, 2010)

Ultraman was released on DVD/Blu-Ray today, so to celebrate, the full score will be once again be streaming all weekend.

http://sc2.spacialnet.com:28174/listen.pls (Ultra Galaxy Legends - Full Score Streaming)

It's 84 minutes of cine-symphonic writing, entirely virtual. Enjoy...


_Mike


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