# The Light Of Life



## Mads Skønberg

Is there ANY progression?


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## AdamAlake

Nope.


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## rottoy

I think you should try to experiment with different musical colours, 
as it's been mostly the same ones and orchestrated in a similar way throughout.

Write something for winds?
Use the strings in a way that isn't just ostinatos and block chords?

Just suggestions.


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## Mads Skønberg

rottoy said:


> I think you should try to experiment with different musical colours,
> as it's been mostly the same ones and orchestrated in a similar way throughout.
> 
> Write something for winds?
> Use the strings in a way that isn't just ostinatos and block chords?
> 
> Just suggestions.



Thanx for the tip. I will try. But I think its difficult to make music I dont like If you know what I mean..


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## Mads Skønberg

AdamAlake said:


> Nope.



I am glad its not just me lacking progression. Adam is still a troll in the comedianbusiness


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## rottoy

Mads Skønberg said:


> Thanx for the tip. I will try. But I think its difficult to make music I dont like If you know what I mean..


Of course, you shouldn't do some musical "style" if you dislike it. 
But it's a good exercise to broaden your horizon.


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## Mads Skønberg

rottoy said:


> Of course, you shouldn't do some musical "style" if you dislike it.
> But it's a good exercise to broaden your horizon.



Maybe I should try. Can you post me a nice woodpiece to be inspired from?


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## rottoy

Mads Skønberg said:


> Maybe I should try. Can you post me a nice woodpiece to be inspired from?


This piece isn't just for winds, but it features some wonderful wind & strings writing.


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> Adam is still a troll in the comedianbusiness



Explain.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> Explain.


I think he's merely inferring to your lack of tact.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Hey Mads, 
Maybe you should try to spent a bit more time to learn new things. The piece is fairly ok and can work, actually after 2 minutes everything is said. So what would help is also to study more pieces and learn, I repeat myself: Motif Development. Motif Development means that you have created an idea and based on this idea you create derivations of it which are familiar with your idea but still feel fresh. This is actually something your pieces definitely could feature more. One start could be for you: Write short compelling pieces with AABA Structure. This piece also lacks imo of a strong melody with an underpinning interesting chord progression which supports it. Another aspect is your orchestration which is like mentioned before very mucht the same. I did asked you already: But what are your goals and idols in music? I got no answer to it, so I am still a bit in the dark what your motivation is to put so many tracks here on VI-C? I mean just from a point of development from your last track I would say actually: No, this track features the same strongs (nice production) and same flaws (boring orchestration and no motif development).


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> I think he's merely inferring to your lack of tact.



What is untactful about giving an answer?


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> What is untactful about giving an answer?


I read the other thread where it was just an endless back and forth between you and Mads, with you championing direct communication but apparently mistaking it for blunt, poor humored banter.
And now you come in here dropping just one word in reply, which seems passive aggressive.

There is a way to be direct and still respectful.


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## Mads Skønberg

rottoy said:


> I read the other thread where it was just an endless back and forth between you and Mads, with you championing direct communication but apparently mistaking it for blunt, poor humored banter.
> And now you come in here dropping just one word in reply, which seems passive aggressive.
> 
> There is a way to be direct and still respectful.


Alexander schiborr is an great example.


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## Mads Skønberg

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hey Mads,
> Maybe you should try to spent a bit more time to learn new things. The piece is fairly ok and can work, actually after 2 minutes everything is said. So what would help is also to study more pieces and learn, I repeat myself: Motif Development. Motif Development means that you have created an idea and based on this idea you create derivations of it which are familiar with your idea but still feel fresh. This is actually something your pieces definitely could feature more. One start could be for you: Write short compelling pieces with AABA Structure. This piece also lacks imo of a strong melody with an underpinning interesting chord progression which supports it. Another aspect is your orchestration which is like mentioned before very mucht the same. I did asked you already: But what are your goals and idols in music? I got no answer to it, so I am still a bit in the dark what your motivation is to put so many tracks here on VI-C? I mean just from a point of development from your last track I would say actually: No, this track features the same strongs (nice production) and same flaws (boring orchestration and no motif development).



Thanx! I thought I answered in the other thread. My goal is only hobby. But the guy produced music for FIFA game contacted me.. so you never know


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> I read the other thread where it was just an endless back and forth between you and Mads, with you championing direct communication but apparently mistaking it for blunt, poor humored banter.
> And now you come in here dropping just one word in reply, which seems passive aggressive.
> 
> There is a way to be direct and still respectful.



I said all of my helpful advice to Mads in his first thread. Nothing has changed since then, thus any further elaboration would be just me repeating myself.


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## Mads Skønberg

AdamAlake said:


> I said all of my helpful advice to Mads in his first thread. Nothing has changed since then, thus any further elaboration would be just me repeating myself.



...and you are very good at repeating your self! Should have let you stay on ignore.


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> ...and you are very good at repeating your self! Should have let you stay on ignore.



Well of course, if you keep asking the same questions and making the same mistakes, you are going to hear the same critique.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> I said all of my helpful advice to Mads in his first thread. Nothing has changed since then, thus any further elaboration would be just me repeating myself.


If you've said all you wanted to say in the earlier threads, why come in here with unhelpful one-liners?


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> If you've said all you wanted to say in the earlier threads, why come in here with unhelpful one-liners?



I hope it will get through eventually, you know, repetition legitimises.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> I hope it will get through eventually, you know, repetition legitimises.


Nope.


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> Nope.



Nope what, are you saying Mads will never improve?


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> Nope what, are you saying Mads will never improve?


Nope.


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> Thanx for the tip. I will try. But I think its difficult to make music I dont like If you know what I mean..



You do not like well orchestrated music?


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## Mads Skønberg

AdamAlake said:


> I hope it will get through eventually, you know, repetition legitimises.



The only thing we possible can learn from your posts Adam is that you are (or want to look like) an perfect asshole.

Sorry if Im wrong, but your "onewordposts" gives us nothing.


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## Andrajas

Adam, you must be a real joy to talk to in real life.
Mads, my tip would be to take some time in between to study and practice. Its hard to really hear progression within just a few days.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Mads Skønberg said:


> Thanx! I thought I answered in the other thread. My goal is only hobby. But the guy produced music for FIFA game contacted me.. so you never know



Well actually I was looking into the other thread again and I am referring to my post here:

https://vi-control.net/community/th...from-august-2017-to-january-2018.67881/page-2

Post No. 30 where I asked the following: "What kind of idols in music you have?"

You are right you said you were contacted by a person from EA. But that was your answer regarding a total different question from me, also see here, on page 3:

https://vi-control.net/community/th...from-august-2017-to-january-2018.67881/page-3

where I asked "Mads, are you a hobbiest, or do you intend some day to work in this music business?"

Actually in this thread here I am did asked again my initial question what your music idols are in particular because then I could evuluate better what your goal is. But I got no answer on this, right? I assume it is some sort maybe Hans Zimmer? And affiliate composers?


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## Mads Skønberg

Andrajas said:


> Adam, you must be a real joy to talk to in real life.
> Mads, my tip would be to take some time in between to study and practice. Its hard to really hear progression within just a few days.



I understand that, and what I am asking for if there is any progression at all from my first pieces to this new one.

The first pieces I made is for example here:







My self, I will say there is a lot of progression, but thats my ears of course. If there is NO progression to track from all this work and studying then maybe I just dont have the talent at all


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> The only thing we possible can learn from your posts Adam is that you are (or want to look like) an perfect asshole.
> 
> Sorry if Im wrong, but your "onewordposts" gives us nothing.



See, you are throwing insults around, and I am the impolite one. What do you want besides "onewordposts"? Months ago @AlexanderSchiborr gave you tons of in depth advice, yet your music show nothing for it, what is the point in giving detailed feedback when you clearly have no intention of applying any of it?


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## Lassi Tani

Mads Skønberg said:


> Thanx for the tip. I will try. But I think its difficult to make music I dont like If you know what I mean..



Even if you don't like classical music, and you love trailer/epic music, it doesn't mean your music doesn't have to be well and interestingly orchestrated and contain a great motif, which you develop. There's lots of epic and trailer music, which have great ideas and motifs. I think your newest track lacks a good, memorable theme, and your piece repeats the same string ostinatos in the background. You should study horizontally composing, have you taken composing courses? Like Mike Verta's?

And actually your earlier pieces had themes. What happened? Did you start writing trailer music thinking it doesn't need a theme?


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## Mads Skønberg

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well actually I was looking into the other thread again and I am referring to my post here:
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...from-august-2017-to-january-2018.67881/page-2
> 
> Post No. 30 where I asked the following: "What kind of idols in music you have?"
> 
> You are right you said you were contacted by a person from EA. But that was your answer regarding a total different question from me, also see here, on page 3:
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...from-august-2017-to-january-2018.67881/page-3
> 
> where I asked "Mads, are you a hobbiest, or do you intend some day to work in this music business?"
> 
> Actually in this thread here I am did asked again my initial question what your music idols are in particular because then I could evuluate better what your goal is. But I got no answer on this, right? I assume it is some sort maybe Hans Zimmer? And affiliate composers?





AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Well actually I was looking into the other thread again and I am referring to my post here:
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...from-august-2017-to-january-2018.67881/page-2
> 
> Post No. 30 where I asked the following: "What kind of idols in music you have?"
> 
> You are right you said you were contacted by a person from EA. But that was your answer regarding a total different question from me, also see here, on page 3:
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/th...from-august-2017-to-january-2018.67881/page-3
> 
> where I asked "Mads, are you a hobbiest, or do you intend some day to work in this music business?"
> 
> Actually in this thread here I am did asked again my initial question what your music idols are in particular because then I could evuluate better what your goal is. But I got no answer on this, right? I assume it is some sort maybe Hans Zimmer? And affiliate composers?



Aha Alexander! I am sorry, I never answered about the idols. 
I think Thomas Bergersen, Hans Zimmer and Ginge (norwegian film music composer) is the 3 inspire me the most.


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## Andrajas

Mads Skønberg said:


> I understand that, and what I am asking for if there is any progression at all from my first pieces to this new one.
> 
> The first pieces I made is for example here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My self, I will say there is a lot of progression, but thats my ears of course. If there is NO progression to track from all this work and studying then maybe I just dont have the talent at all



I see, but mate, you are being way to hard on yourself. It takes time to develop and progress. For me personally, I have to like wait 1 year to really see what I have improved on. Maybe thats way to long for others


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> Aha Alexander! I am sorry, I never answered about the idols.
> I think Thomas Bergersen, Hans Zimmer and Ginge (norwegian film music composer) is the 3 inspire me the most.



You mean this Thomas Bergersen  ?


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## Mads Skønberg

AdamAlake said:


> See, you are throwing insults around, and I am the impolite one. What do you want besides "onewordposts"? Months ago @AlexanderSchiborr gave you tons of in depth advice, yet your music show nothing for it, what is the point in giving detailed feedback when you clearly have no intention of applying any of it?



I am ending the disqussion between us now. Checked your website, and I can see we have very different taste of music too. Over and out.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> See, you are throwing insults around, and I am the impolite one. What do you want besides "onewordposts"? Months ago @AlexanderSchiborr gave you tons of in depth advice, yet your music show nothing for it, what is the point in giving detailed feedback when you clearly have no intention of applying any of it?


As your approach at this point seems to feed into nothing but vitriol, anyone with insight into their own behaviour would either move on or adapt to remedy the situation.


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## Mads Skønberg

AdamAlake said:


> You mean this Thomas Bergersen  ?




Yes, but more the tracks in Illusions:


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> As your approach at this point seems to feed into nothing but vitriol, anyone with insight into their own behaviour would either move on or adapt to remedy the situation.



Or neither.


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> Yes, but more the tracks in Illusions:




Even though it is not one of his best, the entire piece is still carried by strong motifs. Here is what you can do: load up a piano patch and listen to the main melody line in the piece and try to play it by ear. If you manage do get the entire melody line correctly, you will learn a ton and find out there is much more going on besides the epic drums and other stuff.


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## Daniel James

AdamAlake said:


> Well of course, if you keep asking the same questions and making the same mistakes, you are going to hear the same critique.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> Or neither.


Yes, let's repeat the unhelpful cycle ad nauseum. 
"VI-Control - Musicians annoying Musicians."


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> Yes, let's repeat the unhelpful cycle ad nauseum.
> "VI-Control - Musicians annoying Musicians."



Is encouraging bad habits helpful?


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> Is encouraging bad habits helpful?


I know, I'm sorry.
I shouldn't encourage your bad habit of pissing people off.


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> I know, I'm sorry.
> I shouldn't encourage your bad habit of pissing people off.



If negative critique pisses anyone off, that is their problem.


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## Mads Skønberg

We can stop this disqussion now guys. Daniel James said it all with his pic.


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> We can stop this disqussion now guys. Daniel James said it all with his pic.



Alright. I will leave you with a last tip: read up on melody writing, books, videos, articles, anything helps.

https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/seven-steps-to-writing-memorable-melodies-part-1--audio-6527

This is a pretty nice start.

Close your template, load up a piano, and just write melodies. If you spend your time transcribing and writing melodies, instead of focusing on getting an epic sound, you will be lightyears ahead of where you are.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> If negative critique pisses anyone off, that is their problem.


 It must be liberating to be free of the shackles that come with being civil.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> Alright. I will leave you with a last tip: read up on melody writing, books, videos, articles, anything helps.
> 
> https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/seven-steps-to-writing-memorable-melodies-part-1--audio-6527
> 
> This is a pretty nice start.
> 
> Close your template, load up a piano, and just write melodies. If you spend your time transcribing and writing melodies, instead of focusing on getting an epic sound, you will be lightyears ahead of where you are.


Finally something helpful!


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> It must be liberating to be free of the shackles that come with being civil.



I would like you to point out any specific example of any alleged uncivil behaviour on my part.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> I would like you to point out any specific example of any alleged uncivil behaviour on my part.


Any further elaboration would be just me repeating myself.


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## Andrajas

AdamAlake said:


> If negative critique pisses anyone off, that is their problem.


you just don't get it do you? The negative comment isn't the problem, its the way you deliver it. Behaving like an grumpy old man..


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## AdamAlake

rottoy said:


> Any further elaboration would be just me repeating myself.



You did not elaborate in the first place.


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## Daniel James

AdamAlake said:


> You did not elaborate in the first place.



I'm not sure what you are trying to get out of this thread. Your first response of 'nope' wasn't going to help anyone. You knew that. You are acting like a facetious asshole and I can't figure out why. Your later posts offering advice should have been where you started. Instead you decided to come across as a know it all jerk...and again I don't see what was in it for you. This place is for musicians helping musicians....not musicians being cunts.

-DJ


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## AdamAlake

Daniel James said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying to get out of this thread. Your first response of 'nope' wasn't going to help anyone. You knew that. You are acting like a facetious asshole and I can't figure out why. Your later posts offering advice should have been where you started.



I started that way. A few months back.


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## tehreal

Mads Skønberg said:


> Thanx for the tip. I will try. But I think its difficult to make music I dont like If you know what I mean..



I know exactly what you mean. It would be near impossible for a chef to invent a good dish in a style of food in which he doesn't enjoy the taste.

Follow your heart and passions (and have fun doing it). You'll get there, no doubt.


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## thesteelydane

Mads, Thomas Bergersen has studied A LOT of classical music and traditional orchestration to be able to write the way he does. As is evident from this article. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2n7u2nxa6...-V02-03-June-July-2006 pages 44 - 48.pdf?dl=0


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## Kony

Hi Mads, I think you may be getting frustrated responses from some members because you've posted quite a few tracks here asking for feedback but apparently aren't applying advice you're being given. For what it's worth, I've checked out all of the 60+ tracks you've posted on Soundcloud over the last 5 months - and the upshot is I can't hear any development in terms of structure. I say this because all of the tracks have one basic idea - and sound a tad drone-ish. I would listen to what Alexander is saying, try to add more than one theme or, if the track is brief with one strong idea, try modulating. For example, this track you've posted here would work better if you modulated up a tone at 2mins 30 secs point (when it all comes back in after the soft part). For what it's worth, your tracks have very good ideas - but they might work better with variation in the themes - ie not just one theme per track.


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## Mads Skønberg

Kony said:


> Hi Mads, I think you may be getting frustrated responses from some members because you've posted quite a few tracks here asking for feedback but apparently aren't applying advice you're being given. For what it's worth, I've checked out all of the 60+ tracks you've posted on Soundcloud over the last 5 months - and the upshot is I can't hear any development in terms of structure. I say this because all of the tracks have one basic idea - and sound a tad drone-ish. I would listen to what Alexander is saying, try to add more than one theme or, if the track is brief with one strong idea, try modulating. For example, this track you've posted here would work better if you modulated up a tone at 2mins 30 secs point (when it all comes back in after the soft part). For what it's worth, your tracks have very good ideas - but they might work better with variation in the themes - ie not just one theme per track.



Thats a very good idea and advice! Thanks!

Then the Q is: is there an easy way to modulate up 1 tone in Logic Pro X? Or Do I have to play it manually?


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## Kony

Mads Skønberg said:


> Thats a very good idea and advice! Thanks!
> 
> Then the Q is: is there an easy way to modulate up 1 tone in Logic Pro X? Or Do I have to play it manually?


Should be easy - select the notes in piano roll and shift up two semitones. Also, check out some tutorials on modulation such as this one:


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## Anders Bru

Hey Mads! I took a look at your Soundcloud, and to me there definitely is improvement, especially in the production. This has been a bit of a strange thread, but there are some really solid advice scattered through, that I think will help you (I will hopefully learn from them as well). I think it's absolutely wonderful how much music you're making, it's the only way to get better!  And don't worry too much about how long you've been doing this (you count the weeks in some threads). It's a long journey, don't rush it


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## jhughes

Mads Skønberg said:


> Thats a very good idea and advice! Thanks!
> 
> Then the Q is: is there an easy way to modulate up 1 tone in Logic Pro X? Or Do I have to play it manually?



I just go to the piano roll, click edit...Transpose and then select +- 1 or +-12 in some cases, there are keyboard shortcuts for this as well. In some cases it's just as easy to click on notes in piano roll and drag them.

Wow, Mads your "learning process" via vi.control is going to get you a gig before it's over with due to all of the responses/reads you are getting . Every time someone throws a punch it's getting you free publicity. Loads of people are wishing their posts got THREE PAGES, hahaha.


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## Grim_Universe

@thesteelydane it feels like Mads doesn't need this. From thread to thread he asks about his development, and when he recieves something like "you must study orchestration, Mads", he just pretends not to hear it.
I actually understand, why Adam acts like this: because Mads needs regular approval of his works by the community, and he uses this approval as fuel for further work.. But it's not enough fuel to study something really important, you know?
Mads, all your achievements are really great and you should be proud of them. But on the way of studying the composition you will always learn something new, and you'll get used to this feeling soon. You spent half of the year experimenting, but who prevented you from spending half of the year studying orchestration? Then our community will say that you that you did a great job! Forget about those who say that making music is fun. Not always! There is a lot of work before you start generating new cool ideas..


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## Alex Fraser

jhughes said:


> Wow, Mads your "learning process" via vi.control is going to get you a gig before it's over with due to all of the responses/reads you are getting . Every time someone throws a punch it's getting you free publicity. Loads of people are wishing their posts got THREE PAGES, hahaha.


Haha - I think you busted his plan!
<Takes notes.>
Keep going Mads! I respect you putting it "out there" and opening yourself up for comments, good and bad. Let's hear a different style next.


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## Mads Skønberg

Alex Fraser said:


> Haha - I think you busted his plan!
> <Takes notes.>
> Keep going Mads! I respect you putting it "out there" and opening yourself up for comments, good and bad. Let's hear a different style next.


LOL - funny funny guys 

I am not sure if I want to change style, because I feel that my style is something between hybrid/epic/trailer.

Trying to orchestrate good everytime I make music, but is this something to use maybe to learn about orchesstration? Or ?

https://www.logic-templates.com/product-category/logic-pro-x-templates/orchestral

EDIT: I am not very sure about the link I just posted...Does not seem to be anything to use..


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## mac

Mads needs his own sub-forum


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## Darren Durann

Mads Skønberg said:


> Maybe I should try. Can you post me a nice woodpiece to be inspired from?



What you've done certainly wouldn't be out of place in a trailer. If that was your aim, accomplished! If epic/hybrid trailer stuff is what you like I can't see why you'd stop.

But yes writing for other instruments is always a good idea. You might check out Alfred Newman's score for the *Greatest Story Ever Told*, as it features at times shudder-inducingly gorgeous writing for woodwinds (and strings). It is definitely off the beaten, comfort zone track for you...and it's one of the best film scores, period.


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## Darren Durann

Mads Skønberg said:


> LOL - funny funny guys
> 
> I am not sure if I want to change style, because I feel that my style is something between hybrid/epic/trailer.
> 
> Trying to orchestrate good everytime I make music, but is this something to use maybe to learn about orchesstration? Or ?
> 
> https://www.logic-templates.com/product-category/logic-pro-x-templates/orchestral
> 
> EDIT: I am not very sure about the link I just posted...Does not seem to be anything to use..



That link is kind of nowhere. Buy Adler's Orchestration book (invaluable imo), Rimsky-Korsakov. READ AND ABSORB and most importantly APPLY the knowledge therein.

There are excellent online resources for the Rimsky-Korsakov book btw. Forsythe's book is good, too.


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## thesteelydane

Mads Skønberg said:


> LOL - funny funny guys
> 
> I am not sure if I want to change style, because I feel that my style is something between hybrid/epic/trailer.
> 
> Trying to orchestrate good everytime I make music, but is this something to use maybe to learn about orchesstration? Or ?
> 
> https://www.logic-templates.com/product-category/logic-pro-x-templates/orchestral
> 
> EDIT: I am not very sure about the link I just posted...Does not seem to be anything to use..



You don’t understand, its not about changing style, its about learning the basic building blocks of music that ALL music relies on. If you want your epic trailer strings to sound big and agressive, you have to be aware of your chord voicings. If you want to keep the listeners attention without boring them to death you have to understand motif development. All that stuff is in all the best trailer cues, and the easiest way to learn it is to learn from the masters. Studying classical music, whether through books or transcribing, doesn’t mean you have to write classical music, it means you will get an understanding and a tool kit that will help you develop your trailer music.


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## AdamAlake

Grim_Universe said:


> @thesteelydane it feels like Mads doesn't need this. From thread to thread he asks about his development, and when he recieves something like "you must study orchestration, Mads", he just pretends not to hear it.
> I actually understand, why Adam acts like this: because Mads needs regular approval of his works by the community, and he uses this approval as fuel for further work.. But it's not enough fuel to study something really important, you know?
> Mads, all your achievements are really great and you should be proud of them. But on the way of studying the composition you will always learn something new, and you'll get used to this feeling soon. You spent half of the year experimenting, but who prevented you from spending half of the year studying orchestration? Then our community will say that you that you did a great job! Forget about those who say that making music is fun. Not always! There is a lot of work before you start generating new cool ideas..



Well said, mate.


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## tehreal

Grim_Universe said:


> Forget about those who say that making music is fun.



But you would agree that *overall *it's fun, right?

EDIT: I understand that you are taking into account the frustrations present in the composition process (iterating, studying, listening, exercises, theorizing, etc.), technical aspects of VIs, DAWS (and computers in general), scrambling for work, scrambling for ideas, etc. It's tending the ground, watering the tree and enjoying the fruit it bears. Maybe there's something wrong with me that I think the whole process is fun :O


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## AdamAlake

tehreal said:


> But you would agree that *overall *it's fun, right?



Yeah, in the same way running a marathon is fun.


----------



## tehreal

AdamAlake said:


> Yeah, in the same way running a marathon is fun.



Running is a boring, monotonous exercise. That's why people listen to good music while doing it.


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## AdamAlake

tehreal said:


> Running is a boring, monotonous exercise. That's why people listen to good music while doing it.



Running is hardly boring, and I have never seen anyone wear earbuds at any race I have attended.


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## tehreal

AdamAlake said:


> Running is hardly boring



To each his own I guess


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## AdamAlake

tehreal said:


> To each his own I guess



Of course, there are people out there who find making music boring too, after all.


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## Pier

AdamAlake said:


> What is untactful about giving an answer?



Probably the way in which you give the answer. A lot of people expect truth to be sugar coated.


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## AdamAlake

Pier Bover said:


> Probably the way in which you give the answer. A lot of people expect truth to be sugar coated.



Sugar is bad for you, though.


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## Pier

AdamAlake said:


> Sugar is bad for you, though.



Yes indeed.


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## Pier

Mads Skønberg said:


> I am not sure if I want to change style, because I feel that my style is something between hybrid/epic/trailer.



Like others have said, it's not a matter of style.

You can't just repeat the same bars for 3 minutes and expect other composers to pat you on the back for a well done job.


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## rottoy

Another wet blanket from the School of Hard Knocks continue the cycle.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

I don´t think that this is the repeating thing alone. There are pieces who repeat over and over again like the Bolero, but they work. I guess the pinpoint with repeating here is that you need at least then color change in orchestration. That is the reason why certain things were said to Mads regarding learning to orchestrate. He said that he didn´t like certain orchestral music styles, actually it is not about styles but to learn fundamentals for the orchestration which could help him a lot. I always thinl that it is good to share works to get feedback and Mads does it more frequently which is fine. But he should also spent time in studies for a longer time then.


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## AdamAlake

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I don´t think that this is the repeating thing alone. There are pieces who repeat over and over again like the Bolero, but they work. I guess the pinpoint with repeating here is that you need at least then color change in orchestration. That is the reason why certain things were said to Mads regarding learning to orchestrate. He said that he didn´t like certain orchestral music styles, actually it is not about styles but to learn fundamentals for the orchestration which could help him a lot. I always thinl that it is good to share works to get feedback and Mads does it more frequently which is fine. But he should also spent time in studies for a longer time then.



Well the Bolero has rock solid motifs, and Ravel was a genius who knew that he could make it work with repetition. The problem is when you do not have any melodic line and repeat stuff because you do not know what else to do.


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## Mads Skønberg

The second music making is not fun anymore I will quit.


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> The second music making is not fun anymore I will quit.



To each their own.


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## rottoy

AdamAlake said:


> To each their own.


I think we can cap off the thread with this platitude.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Mads Skønberg said:


> The second music making is not fun anymore I will quit.



Mads, what do you mean by "second music" making? Not sure so I ask.


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## mcalis

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Mads, what do you mean by "second music" making? Not sure so I ask.


You've had too many beers Alex 

He meant second, as in the time second.

So he's saying that the moment music stops being fun to make, he'd quit.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

mcalis said:


> You've had too many beers Alex
> 
> He meant second, as in the time second.
> 
> So he's saying that the moment music stops being fun to make, he'd quit.



AH I see. Man..the beers knocks out my english skills. lol. Well..actually I would say to that: It is great that music makes fun. But it is not always like that. When he wants to make that as a job then..probably it is getting difficult a little. PLUS...you need an elephant skin..


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## Darren Durann

Mads Skønberg said:


> The second music making is not fun anymore I will quit.



Then you must just be making music for yourself, nothing wrong with that at all.


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## tehreal

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> ... I always thinl that it is good to share works to get feedback and Mads does it more frequently which is fine.



I enjoy his passion and fearlessness (as with many composers here). I could definitely learn from it.


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## Knomes

AdamAlake said:


> Well the Bolero has rock solid motifs, and Ravel was a genius who knew that he could make it work with repetition. The problem is when you do not have any melodic line and repeat stuff because you do not know what else to do.



Apart from Ravel being a genius there is the not secondary fact that the "theme" of the Bolero lasts much more than 4 seconds.

The theme starts at 0:15 and ends at 1:00 (45 seconds). Then there is the second phrase, which has some similarity with the first but it is not just a transposition. It starts at 1:54 and ends at 2:38 (46 seconds) (the video calls it frase-b).

For the OP. I'm sorry if I go hard on you but the "theme" of your composition is made of 3 notes and lasts for 1.2 seconds i think. So, there is a huge difference with the Bolero of Ravel that no orchestration can solve, in my opinion.
From my point of view, you should not study orchestration now, you should study harmony and counterpoint perhaps.
I would follow the advice of AdamAlake and AlexanderSchiborr and would focus on melody. If I were you i'd start writing pieces for just one keyboard instrument of your choice (organ, piano, synth, whatever) so that you have to focus on harmony and melody.


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## Darren Durann

Mads Skønberg said:


> Is there ANY progression?




I'm wondering now: if you're happy with what you've done and like to listen to it, does progression matter at all? Just do your thing and don't worry about it. If it's truly for yourself then have at it and have fun and share when and if you want to share.

I personally say: go back to having fun, because having to study composition, harmony, orchestration, arranging, etc. can be very unfun. You mentioned you'd stop making music when it stopped being fun, there you go!

I would suggest perhaps trying not to blow a lot of money on high end libraries and synths when this is just making music for yourself. The unfun part: learning how to properly use these elite libraries, will eclipse the fun.

All of this is meant respectfully: if you do it for yourself and your entertainment, why care?


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## AdamAlake

Knomes said:


> Apart from Ravel being a genius there is the not secondary fact that the "theme" of the Bolero lasts much more than 4 seconds.
> 
> The theme starts at 0:15 and ends at 1:00 (45 seconds). Then there is the second phrase, which has some similarity with the first but it is not just a transposition. It starts at 1:54 and ends at 2:38 (46 seconds) (the video calls it frase-b).
> 
> For the OP. I'm sorry if I go hard on you but the "theme" of your composition is made of 3 notes and lasts for 1.2 seconds i think. So, there is a huge difference with the Bolero of Ravel that no orchestration can solve, in my opinion.
> From my point of view, you should not study orchestration now, you should study harmony and counterpoint perhaps.
> I would follow the advice of AdamAlake and AlexanderSchiborr and would focus on melody. If I were you i'd start writing pieces for just one keyboard instrument of your choice (organ, piano, synth, whatever) so that you have to focus on harmony and melody.




Great elaboration, I was just pointing out that Ravels composition clearly has an enormous amount of depth and could afford some repetition, unlike the OP piece where the listener would quickly tire of the material, and thus more than orchestration is needed to fix the problem.


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## thesteelydane

Knomes said:


> Apart from Ravel being a genius there is the not secondary fact that the "theme" of the Bolero lasts much more than 4 seconds.
> 
> The theme starts at 0:15 and ends at 1:00 (45 seconds). Then there is the second phrase, which has some similarity with the first but it is not just a transposition. It starts at 1:54 and ends at 2:38 (46 seconds) (the video calls it frase-b).
> 
> For the OP. I'm sorry if I go hard on you but the "theme" of your composition is made of 3 notes and lasts for 1.2 seconds i think. So, there is a huge difference with the Bolero of Ravel that no orchestration can solve, in my opinion.
> From my point of view, you should not study orchestration now, you should study harmony and counterpoint perhaps.
> I would follow the advice of AdamAlake and AlexanderSchiborr and would focus on melody. If I were you i'd start writing pieces for just one keyboard instrument of your choice (organ, piano, synth, whatever) so that you have to focus on harmony and melody.




This is solid advice. It’s the level I’m still at myself. I feel that if a piece works when you strip away arrangement and orchestration and play it on just piano, then you’ve got something.


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## rottoy

thesteelydane said:


> I feel that if a piece works when you strip away arrangement and orchestration and play it on just piano, then you’ve got something.


One of my favourite examples of this is this cover of a piece from James Newton Howards score for "King Kong".

Just listening to the orchestration stripped to solo piano is a wonder to behold.


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## Mads Skønberg

Darren Durann said:


> I'm wondering now: if you're happy with what you've done and like to listen to it, does progression matter at all? Just do your thing and don't worry about it. If it's truly for yourself then have at it and have fun and share when and if you want to share.
> 
> I personally say: go back to having fun, because having to study composition, harmony, orchestration, arranging, etc. can be very unfun. You mentioned you'd stop making music when it stopped being fun, there you go!
> 
> I would suggest perhaps trying not to blow a lot of money on high end libraries and synths when this is just making music for yourself. The unfun part: learning how to properly use these elite libraries, will eclipse the fun.
> 
> All of this is meant respectfully: if you do it for yourself and your entertainment, why care?



Maybe the best advice in this thread
I am not a person who will have patience studying theory for hours/days/months.

I will keep on experimenting on my own
Thanx!


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Mads Skønberg said:


> Maybe the best advice in this thread
> I am not a person who will have patience studying theory for hours/days/months.
> 
> I will keep on experimenting on my own
> Thanx!



I can understand that and I like to try things out on my own also. But believe me: If you want to make progress there is no shortcut also to spent time on studies. I am afraid that there is short run to your idols in music and if you want e.g. to write pieces on a level similar to Thomas B. then there is no way around to study the principles of orchestration and the principles of composition and songwriting. Structure is a very important aspect in that regards too. Writing compelling melodies has to do with the ability to outline important chord notes and find strong chord progressions. I don´t know all of Thomas pieces but he always features at least these things in his tracks. He also studies typical americana clichees which I sum up under the term of "classic american filmmusic". And that is not style, that is strenghten your speech, it is like learning new words in a language. And that demands time. If you don´t want that to do, it is fine and understandable, but you won´t do that much progress unfortunately I guarantee you that like the Amen in the Church.


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## Andrajas

Cant say Im the one that has put a lot of time to study orchestration and such. I have of course studied some, and watching Mike verta lessons, youtube etc can be a good way to start. I find videos easier than books. 

I think listen alot to music you like and that inspires you is very important. You ears and memory will notice stuff and after a while when you sit down to compose, you for example voice a chord an certain way, you Will go: ah, i have heard that before. That have helped alot for me. But i do believe study of some sort is important to become better and you will save alot of time and problems.


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## Lassi Tani

If you are asking, if you've made progression and ask for feedback, you clearly want to develop your skills as a composer. Unfortunately, experimenting on your own won't help you develop your skills. Studying theory is not as dull as it sounds, take a look at Mike Verta's courses for example, he's talking against studying theory without taking it into practice, and his courses are very entertaining. Or you could check out Envatos tutorials, e.g.: https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/a-guide-to-producing-an-epic-orchestral-track--audio-13389.

You don't really need to study hours, take just 20mins of your day, watch tutorials, take notes, and you will get new vocabulary for your compositions, which you can utilize right away.

I think it's lots of fun, when you study, try it in practice, and you realize it actually works and sounds interesting. Where's the fun in keeping doing the same over and over again when composing?


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## Mads Skønberg

sekkosiki said:


> If you are asking, if you've made progression and ask for feedback, you clearly want to develop your skills as a composer. Unfortunately, experimenting on your own won't help you develop your skills. Studying theory is not as dull as it sounds, take a look at Mike Verta's courses for example, he's talking against studying theory without taking it into practice, and his courses are very entertaining. Or you could check out Envatos tutorials, e.g.: https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/a-guide-to-producing-an-epic-orchestral-track--audio-13389.
> 
> You don't really need to study hours, take just 20mins of your day, watch tutorials, take notes, and you will get new vocabulary for your compositions, which you can utilize right away.
> 
> I think it's lots of fun, when you study, try it in practice, and you realize it actually works and sounds interesting. Where's the fun in keeping doing the same over and over again when composing?



The article you linked to was nice. Thanks. Read it now.


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## PeterN

How about countermelody. Have u experimented with that. Also the structure AABA etc.

That being said, I cant stand this 4 chords epic choir staccato rise and hit stuff, but thats personal preference. 

Anyway, experiment with some countermelody and structure too.


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## Darren Durann

Andrajas said:


> I think listen alot to music you like and that inspires you is very important. You ears and memory will notice stuff and after a while when you sit down to compose, you for example voice a chord an certain way, you Will go: ah, i have heard that before. That have helped alot for me. But i do believe study of some sort is important to become better and you will save alot of time and problems.



Quoted for truth. Keep listening! I make damn sure every day to set a time(s) for slapping on my Sennheisers and really_* listening*_ to a composer I like. And btw headphones are how I personally trained myself to really listen to something. There's a difference, as most of you know.

Btw, the conscientious listener can have as much fun as the casual, but often for different reasons.

But hell, you folks might already know all of this, so forgive me in advance any redundancy.


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## Darren Durann

Mads Skønberg said:


> Maybe the best advice in this thread
> I am not a person who will have patience studying theory for hours/days/months.
> 
> I will keep on experimenting on my own
> Thanx!



Go for it!


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## AlexanderSchiborr

@Mads. Hey man, to illustrate you how I do and learn words here is short track that I did wrote today for a 2 Handed Piano performance. The harmonic language is based on music I like, foremost working a bit the indiana Jones franchise and maintitle as a guideline. So I pastiche here things which are familiar but I try to make a little bit my own thing out of it. For me personally it is important that there is anchor which you lock on. I don´t say I finalized that with this example perfectly but actually you get the point? Imitating a bit what you like is a good exercise to improve yourself. So later on when I am finished with the composition I will start to orchestrate this piece. This is how I work and maybe that could be for an idea to switch your seats and start just composing music with a simple Piano Patch.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4aikloa3...n_13_08_02_17_Midway_West_Adventures.mp3?dl=0


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## Darren Durann

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> @Mads. Hey man, to illustrate you how I do and learn words here is short track that I did wrote today for a 2 Handed Piano performance. The harmonic language is based on music I like, foremost working a bit the indiana Jones franchise and maintitle as a guideline. So I pastiche here things which are familiar but I try to make a little bit my own thing out of it. For me personally it is important that there is anchor which you lock on. I don´t say I finalized that with this example perfectly but actually you get the point? Imitating a bit what you like is a good exercise to improve yourself. So later on when I am finished with the composition I will start to orchestrate this piece. This is how I work and maybe that could be for an idea to switch your seats and start just composing music with a simple Piano Patch.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/n4aikloa3...n_13_08_02_17_Midway_West_Adventures.mp3?dl=0



This actually reminds me a bit of the more swashbuckling side of Rózsa. Like it.

Btw, that's a definite compliment.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Darren Durann said:


> This actually reminds me a bit of the more swashbuckling side of Rózsa. Like it.
> 
> Btw, that's a definite compliment.


Cool, Thank you! I appreciate that. I just post that to help and get for Mads a perspective and to switch his thinking in maybe it could be really a good try first to compose a basic sketch to have more control of where he wants to go. He should at least try it out.


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## MarcelM

my 2 cents...

do what you want aslong as you have fun. ofcourse if you wanna score a big movie someday music theory is important, but i know for sure there are quite a few trailer composers who havent studied ravel, john williams etc and still do quite a good job. alot of them cant read music and are self taught and compose by ear.


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## Mads Skønberg

Thanks for tips, I am reading / seeing some videos. Tried som counter melody in the last part, and made the track even more «hybrid» in this New version:


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## Mads Skønberg

I think the counter melodies are even better in this version:



Or?


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## Mads Skønberg

I tried making a modulation of 1 semitone in the last part, but I failed. The sound got blurry and ugly - any tips ? I just marked the tones in the pianoroll and clicked transpose and +1 semitone (did it on all tracks of course, except perc).


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## Mads Skønberg

Up?


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## Lassi Tani

It's getting better! Though you're not giving any interesting idea or a theme in the beginning to hook up the listener. Just string ostinatos, which are a bit too quiet. You could have a piano high up in the first part with a melody. The first part is not building up properly, and I think it's because the strings are not giving enough tension, hmm the tension seems too sudden? The release after the tension is weak, might be because the string ostinato is the same, same chord progression, just a theme (first time!), which is not bad, but I think you should give more to the listener after the first buildup. In the end, the synth comes first time, and it doesn't continue. I think it doesn't bring anything to the piece.

I don't hear a modulation in the end?

The countermelody could be earlier, and it could be more different from the main melody. Good thing that it leads to the theme again, but it's so similar to the theme (starts from the same note and leads to the theme again) that it sounds like it's part of the theme. One idea could be using a countermelody, which goes down, when your melody here goes up, a contrasting motion.

So I think this piece consists of good ideas, but it's missing the development, tensions, releases, a strong motif in the beginning.

I've always said this, and I hope it doesn't sound rude, but a trailer piece is not about throwing risers, effects, string ostinatos, a choir, and brass themes to a piece. It's not easy to compose a trailer piece, it's a tough job, because many people think you can just throw those elements to a piece, without really thinking how the trailer piece works: Does it present a motif, does it develop it, does it give enough tension, and does it release it. That's why it's essential to study composing!


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## AlexanderSchiborr

sekkosiki said:


> It's getting better! Though you're not giving any interesting idea or a theme in the beginning to hook up the listener. Just string ostinatos, which are a bit too quiet. You could have a piano high up in the first part with a melody. The first part is not building up properly, and I think it's because the strings are not giving enough tension, hmm the tension seems too sudden? The release after the tension is weak, might be because the string ostinato is the same, same chord progression, just a theme (first time!), which is not bad, but I think you should give more to the listener after the first buildup. In the end, the synth comes first time, and it doesn't continue. I think it doesn't bring anything to the piece.
> 
> I don't hear a modulation in the end?
> 
> The countermelody could be earlier, and it could be more different from the main melody. Good thing that it leads to the theme again, but it's so similar to the theme (starts from the same note and leads to the theme again) that it sounds like it's part of the theme. One idea could be using a countermelody, which goes down, when your melody here goes up, a contrasting motion.
> 
> So I think this piece consists of good ideas, but it's missing the development, tensions, releases, a strong motif in the beginning.
> 
> I've always said this, and I hope it doesn't sound rude, but a trailer piece is not about throwing risers, effects, string ostinatos, a choir, and brass themes to a piece. It's not easy to compose a trailer piece, it's a tough job, because many people think you can just throw those elements to a piece, without really thinking how the trailer piece works: Does it present a motif, does it develop it, does it give enough tension, and does it release it. That's why it's essential to study composing!



You heard right. There is no. And I second ecspecially your last paragraph. Mads should print that out and put it over his studio monitors.


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## Mads Skønberg

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> You heard right. There is no. And I second ecspecially your last paragraph. Mads should print that out and put it over his studio monitors.



Hehe 

I will never study theory. But I am Learning a lot from you guys and watchng videos.

My Evenant entry is BTW inspired from your Happy Birthday piece Alexander.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Mads Skønberg said:


> Hehe
> 
> I will never study theory. But I am Learning a lot from you guys and watchng videos.
> 
> My Evenant entry is BTW inspired from your Happy Birthday piece Alexander.



Oh cool. Good luck with that, Mads !


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## MarcelM

Mads Skønberg said:


> Hehe
> 
> I will never study theory. But I am Learning a lot from you guys and watchng videos.
> 
> My Evenant entry is BTW inspired from your Happy Birthday piece Alexander.



actually its also a way to study imho. watching videos, reading forums, listening to music etc.
and ofcourse you try out different things and your tracks will become better.

also beeing an absolute expert in music theory doesnt make you the next john williams, ravel, HZ etc.

theory does not come up with some really really good ideas, its just a tool imho.


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## MarcelM

mads (and prolly all others), you can make it without music theory 
have a look at his video.


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## leon chevalier

Interesting thread, interesting case. I've read the whole thread before listening any music from Mads... And it was better than expected !

I agree with the advice being said before, and I want to add there is a good base to build on .

@Mads Skønberg I get that you don't want to work the theory but there is a very fun way to learn: Take your favorite epic track from your favorite composer and follow the structure, the tempo, the development, the instruments... Follow everything, but with your own melodies! It start with a piano, you start a piano, then strings chord, you do it also...

So you will learn how to build tension and release, and it's the only thing music (and art) is about. And Epic/Trailer style is especially all about tension and release.

I say this very humbly as I'm myself a learning composer.

One more thing, epic music is wide world, it is not only about fast strings ostantinato. For exemple the slower the music is, the more powerful it become :



And there is also a bright side of the epic music, the love side 



So much to explore !

Good luck,

Leon

(PS: Yes, I'm digging into Craig Amstrong music these days  )


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## chrisphan

Heroix said:


> actually its also a way to study imho. watching videos, reading forums, listening to music etc.
> and ofcourse you try out different things and your tracks will become better.
> 
> also beeing an absolute expert in music theory doesnt make you the next john williams, ravel, HZ etc.
> 
> theory does not come up with some really really good ideas, its just a tool imho.


except all of those people are experts in music theory, so your chance of becoming them if you know theory is 100% higher


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## Mads Skønberg

chrisphan said:


> except all of those people are experts in music theory, so your chance of becoming them if you know theory is 100% higher



And I dont want to become them - I want to be myself.


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## bryla

When you ask for feedback you're only asking what other people would do differently. If you implement any of it do you become less yourself?


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## Mads Skønberg

bryla said:


> When you ask for feedback you're only asking what other people would do differently. If you implement any of it do you become less yourself?



Of course not. Inspiration is important. But copying a "structure" is just boring I guess.


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## bryla

Still a lot of original blues being written on the same structure.


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## Mads Skønberg

bryla said:


> Still a lot of original blues being written on the same structure.



Im not writing blues. And maybe thats the reason why blues is so boring? Everyone using the same structure?


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## bryla

That's opinion. Limiting for your development - since that was what you asked about.

You can be curious and learn a lot - not just from the music you like or listen to - not just from music. Or you can shut yourself of and learn nothing. Your choice.

The trend I see among people getting gigs and getting their music out there is, they continue to educate themself.


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## Mads Skønberg

bryla said:


> That's opinion. Limiting for your development - since that was what you asked about.
> 
> You can be curious and learn a lot - not just from the music you like or listen to - not just from music. Or you can shut yourself of and learn nothing. Your choice.
> 
> The trend I see among people getting gigs and getting their music out there is, they continue to educate themself.



Fair enough, everyone has something to learn - And I have EXTREMELY much to learn. My music sounds crap compared to the pros. I am learning from other composers every day. But I dont want to copy anyone. Then I rather sound crap and originally


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## thesteelydane

You know what one of the all time greats said about learning, right? “Imitate, assimilate, innovate”.


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## AdamAlake

Mads Skønberg said:


> Of course not. Inspiration is important. But copying a "structure" is just boring I guess.



Do you know the purpose of structure in music?


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## chrisphan

Mads Skønberg said:


> And I dont want to become them - I want to be myself.


Of course I meant "be great like them." You won't be as dead as Ravel after learning music theory 

Bryla's example was not the best one. Learning music theory doesn't make you follow any structure like the blues. Anyway, the topic of learning music theory or not has been said enough so I'm not gonna bring it up again. I have 2 things to comment on your viewpoint however. First, your definition of originality is an illusion. Unless you grew up in an island and never listened to music, you are likely to be influenced by music you've listened to, and hundreds of years of Western music history. Second, learning music theory doesn't always mean sitting down to read a book. You might be learning by watching videos or internalizing your favorite music without knowing, and that's totally fine.


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## jhughes

Question-Look at your favorite composers, what did they study? What was their training? Perhaps consider some of those topics.
I realize theory is often a dainting dask but IMO it's point is to increase your hearing abilities, not fill your head with random disconnected things. Not to make you unoriginal. It gives more options, it doesn't take away unless you let it.
It's like the color turquoise, the color has a label and simply allows you to differentiate between other colors. Labels or theory actually can increase your ability to hear things clearer and faster; the problem is it's often divorced from the HEARING side of things and becomes factoids that seem disconnected from SOUND.
You mentioned transposing, was this mid song? If so, modulations often need a preparation phase to prevent a jarring effect. Perhaps that is problem.


----------

