# Are there shills (fake accounts from developers) on this forum?



## oliverd (Jan 18, 2018)

After seeing this 8Dio thread and some pretty glaringly obvious proof about shilling, I'm wondering if there's more of this going on in this forum than we realise:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/8dios-66-basses.68047/

For those who don't know what "shilling" is, its essentially when the owner of a product or someone who has a stake in said product (ie. a reseller), pretends to be a random internet user and creates a thread to solicit feedback and generate interest in said product, or comments on an already existing thread with positive feedback and excitement to stir up interest.

I visit this forum pretty infrequently, but over the past few months when I login and view the latest threads, I've always noticed a couple of not so random accounts posting on certain "deals" threads to boost them to the top of "latest posts". When you look at their accounts, 70% of their posts are just on the deals threads for that particular company with the other 30% being enough random comments on other threads to spread out their posts and dilute their clear posting bias towards a particular developer or store.

I'd rather not link directly to their accounts as I don't want to accuse anyone directly (simply look a a couple of deals threads and the users are pretty obvious to spot anyway), but I'm curious if anyone else things this is a bigger issue than we realise and if so, how can we stop it?


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## fiestared (Jan 18, 2018)

oliverd said:


> After seeing this 8Dio thread and some pretty glaringly obvious proof about shilling, I'm wondering if there's more of this going on in this forum than we realise:
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/8dios-66-basses.68047/
> 
> ...


Of course there are... It's a real prob, because now I don't really trust anyone anymore, sad...


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## FriFlo (Jan 18, 2018)

Sure! I am!


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## Montisquirrel (Jan 18, 2018)

If I would sell anything, of course I would register some profiles and speak only good about my products. But in a smart way, for example comment on some other products or ask some "newbie" questions. Thats how it works.


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## chillbot (Jan 18, 2018)

fiestared said:


> Of course there are... It's a real prob, because now I don't really trust anyone anymore, sad...


If you hang around this forum long enough you certainly learn to trust certain members. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 20-30 posters who's opinion I trust and value, and there's probably a lot more... that's enough for me.

There's not much of a difference between shills and fanboys/fangirls, it's a fine line... easy to ignore both.


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## Montisquirrel (Jan 18, 2018)

oliverd said:


> I'd rather not link directly to their accounts as I don't want to accuse anyone directly (simply look a a couple of deals threads and the users are pretty obvious to spot anyway), but I'm curious if anyone else things this is a bigger issue than we realise and if so, how can we stop it?



There are some who often post in the "Deals" section, but they also make a lot of review videos and put a lot of time into showing us new plugins. I'm very thankful for that.


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## storyteller (Jan 18, 2018)

I think it is probably safe to say the majority of forums/social media/comments/reviews/blogs/etc would fall under that issue. I’m glad people are finally starting to see it for what it is! Amazon reviews are largely bought (aka bot) and paid for... Likes and followers on social media are easily purchased. Reddit was created to be run by fake accounts. Ask the developers. They’ve openly said it. But when sites like this (which have a more intimate/personal community) have those issues exposed, it is easy to get upset and look for how to stop it. I believe that one’s work should speak for itself and the reward will be ten-fold what it would be otherwise. Also - 100% on what @chillbot said. It really is no different than real life. Find the people you know are solid and be part of that smaller community in the big community.


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## fiestared (Jan 18, 2018)

chillbot said:


> If you hang around this forum long enough you certainly learn to trust certain members. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 20-30 posters who's opinion I trust and value, and there's probably a lot more... that's enough for me.
> 
> There's not much of a difference between shills and fanboys/fangirls, it's a fine line... easy to ignore both.


You're right, in fact I do as you, I have my list of favs (including you), I naturally believe what people say and I had deception, so "Once bitten, twice shy". this said, this forum is still my go to...


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## chillbot (Jan 18, 2018)

fiestared said:


> I have my list of favs (including you)


No. I would not trust that guy. I'm not even on my own list of people I'd trust.


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## leon chevalier (Jan 18, 2018)

In my humble opinion, I'm the best living composer. (Please note that I'm not under contract with myself.)


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## synthpunk (Jan 18, 2018)

I would of probably posted this on a different sub forum. There is a forum support sub forum in the list and here: 
https://vi-control.net/community/categories/forum-support-desk.100/

So I have also cc'ed in the list owner @Mike Greene.

I do believe there are some, there are also members who only post about selling/reviewing things that bothers me. Saying that, life is short and there is also a ignore feature


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## fiestared (Jan 18, 2018)

chillbot said:


> No. I would not trust that guy. I'm not even on my own list of people I'd trust.


Sorry man, this is like that


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## wst3 (Jan 18, 2018)

Short answer, of course there are. There was a time when some effort was made to run them out of town, but it became a game of whack-a-mole, so I don't think that's happening any more.

Mr. Synthpunk makes an important distinction - there are lots of folks who I would not as for opinions on products. Some are just overly enthusiastic fans, some are "affiliates", and some are just plain old shills.

It is easy to identify them, but I'm not sure it is worth the effort. Probably better to stay positive and identify the folks from whom you would welcome an opinion. There are plenty, and not everyone can offer an opinion on every topic. (I, of course, can offer expert opinions on anything - just ask me!)

It is, I'm afraid, the nature of the internet. Shilling has become so easy.

While I may draw ire from some quarters, I too have started to just ignore the affiliates. It's great that they can get a few quid if I buy something through their link, and were there reviews a little more useful I'd probably do so.

Some of them started out well, but I think the lure of extra cash has turned all of them, at least in my not-so-humble opinion. It's a shame, because a couple of them had some good stuff to share, and now I don't even bother reading their posts. I lose too!


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## thereus (Jan 19, 2018)

Even some of the most expert and knowledgeable members seem to become fanboys when certain products come up.


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## wst3 (Jan 19, 2018)

thereus said:


> Even some of the most expert and knowledgeable members seem to become fanboys when certain products come up.


Absolutely!

And I'm as guilty as anyone here. There are tools that have changed, in a positive way, my ability to produce music. On an intellectual level I am completely aware that this applies only to me. But we are (I hope) artists at the core, and so we sometimes skip over the intellectual analysis and leap head first into enthusiastic evangelism.

Don't ask me about specific libraries, or plugins, or even microphones and preamplifiers. The ones I use are the ones I know, and I use them because they make _*my life *_better. So of course I think they will make your life better. And I'll keep reminding you of that until you capitulate, because of course I am right!!!

There's another aspect to this phenomenon, and that is personal experience, or even personal relationships with developers.

I'll pick on 8Dio because they were mentioned in the OP. I believe that there are folks that have had bad experiences with the libraries or even the folks at the company. But I've never had that happen to me. I email them, I get answers, usually within a day or so, and the answers are accurate and appropriate to my case. So I have no complaints.

When I see someone complaining about a library, or their customer service I sometimes speak up to offer the opposing perspective. It's undoubtedly a waste of time in the majority of cases. I should probably stop that behavior. But I do think it is unfair to judge any of our developers based on a single customer's experience.

I try to keep my own fan-boy behavior in check, but I have a ways to go.


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## synthpunk (Jan 19, 2018)

Bill, your such a Arp 2600 fanboy! 



wst3 said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> And I'm as guilty as anyone here. There are tools that have changed, in a positive way, my ability to produce music. On an intellectual level I am completely aware that this applies only to me. But we are (I hope) artists at the core, and so we sometimes skip over the intellectual analysis and leap head first into enthusiastic evangelism.
> 
> ...


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## wst3 (Jan 19, 2018)

synthpunk said:


> Bill, your such a Arp 2600 fanboy!



Guilty as charged your honor!


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## thereus (Jan 19, 2018)

wst3 said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> And I'm as guilty as anyone here. There are tools that have changed, in a positive way, my ability to produce music. On an intellectual level I am completely aware that this applies only to me. But we are (I hope) artists at the core, and so we sometimes skip over the intellectual analysis and leap head first into enthusiastic evangelism.
> 
> ...



Yes, my point though is that some of those experienced users may be actually shilling. Not you, obviously.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 19, 2018)

Are there shills? I would hope so!


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## Living Fossil (Jan 19, 2018)

thereus said:


> Even some of the most expert and knowledgeable members seem to become fanboys when certain products come up.



...and this is not bad at all.
Writing music is an emotional thing, and tools you love to work with are essential.
Very often it's not about the objective quality of a library/plug in, but rather about its inspiring impact.
If users speak honestly about tools that inspire them (and also add the relevant aspects), this can be extremely helpful.
And i think that usually it's not that difficult to see if somebody really likes what he's mentioning or if it's rather a hidden promo...with some instinct you can feel if passion is real.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 20, 2018)

What I dislike, shills or not, are those who automatically drool over every library by a developer and extravagantly praise it, sometimes even before they have it. To, that's High School stuff like cutting out pictures of your favorite rock starts and hanging them on your walls.

I didn't do that for East West even when I worked for them


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## wst3 (Jan 20, 2018)

thereus said:


> Yes, my point though is that some of those experienced users may be actually shilling. Not you, obviously.


Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I try to temper my enthusiasm, and I make an effort to avoid piling on - positive or negative - threads.

But sometimes, well, a tool has helped me so much that I can't help myself.

Would I shill if I could be paid to do so? Man I hope not, but you never know.


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 20, 2018)

thereus said:


> Yes, my point though is that some of those experienced users may be actually shilling. Not you, obviously.



_shill - an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others._​Based on that definition, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find too many experienced members who are shills. I agree with your previous statement about fanboying (it's probably my least favorite aspect of this community), but being a fanboy does not equate to being a shill.

As a matter of fact, fanboying is another interesting topic. Many here will know that I'm a huge fan of Alex Wallbank's work... but does that make me a fanboy? To me, "fanboying" implies a certain degree of unsubstantiated excitement and praise - stuff that's driven by anything other than the product itself. I like to think that I judge Alex's work fairly, and that it's the quality of his products that excite me, not the fact that it's coming from him. If CSB turns out a complete failure, I won't hesitate to express my disappointment.

Many here will also know that I find it difficult to take Spitfire threads seriously. I love Spitfire Audio and I own and love many of their libraries, so why might I be so cynical? Well, when a 10 page thread of extravagant praise springs from a 30 second teaser showcasing nothing about the product itself, you have to start being skeptical.

These two examples kind of flesh out my personal view on the idea of fanboying. Would love to hear your guys' thoughts on the issue.


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## thereus (Jan 20, 2018)

Zhao Shen said:


> _shill - an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others._
> 
> ​​Based on that definition, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find too many experienced members who are shills.



But that is not the definition we are using...

Shill - A person who pretends to give an impartial endorsement of something in which they themselves have an interest.

Nothing wrong at all with being a fan per se, although there are fans and fans of course. Being a shill is never ok.


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## AllanH (Jan 20, 2018)

I'm sure there are shills. Some of them are fairly overt and easy to spot. I don't think it really matters unless it gets stupid (like the recent 8DIO example). 

I tend to post more about the products I like than my mistake-purchases, so that may somehow look unbalanced.


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## Paul Grymaud (Jan 20, 2018)

*No, for pity's sake! I admit that I have fourteen accounts on VI-CONTROL. I plead guilty but do not force me to listen to the latest hit of XXXXX made with my own sounds.*
*





*


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## wst3 (Jan 20, 2018)

AllanH said:


> I tend to post more about the products I like than my mistake-purchases, so that may somehow look unbalanced



I think that's a good way to do things.

I post about products that work well for me. I try to explain why they work well for me. Examples are too numerous to bother<G>!

I sometimes post about products that I think are above average, even if I'm not going to purchase them, and I try to explain my reasoning so others who might not be in the same position can consider them. A recent example - I love the new Breeze reverb, but I'm really quite happy with the reverb plugins I own right now, and can't justify the investment. Nothing wrong with Breeze at all, except that I already own others.

I sometimes post about products I've tried or purchased that just did not work out for me, again with an explanation about why they didn't work out for me. An immediate example comes to mind, I purchased Albion 1 and Orchestra Essentials 1 at about the same time. Felt it was time to learn how to use this type of library, fell flat on my face, and asked for help. Turns out no one can teach you how to use these<G>!

And sometimes I'm wrong about that, so I will also post a retraction if I discover that they are, in fact, helpful<G>. Same example, eventually I found a number of very useful applications for both, and ended up getting Albion One, OE2, and both of the Swing libraries. I'm still not facile with them, but they do a lot of cool things. Probably I should have kept my mouth shut until I figured them out?

None-the-less I think there is some utility to posting about "mistake purchases" - as long as you include enough information that others can judge whether or not the purchase would be a mistake for them. Tricky, I know.

I also do some beta testing (NDAs prevent me from providing details), and I work or have worked for different developers. I don't advertise those relationships for a variety of reasons, and I don't comment on those products, except to help solve a problem if I can. I think that's reasonable. I know (obviously) there are other beta testers on the forum, and I can't remember the last time I witnessed any of them posting about the products they were testing.

Overall I think the community here is pretty good about posting. We do get the occasional flare-up, wish we didn't.


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## rene p (Jan 23, 2018)

Using a throwaway here as I don't want this to be associated with my main account. Yes shilling is happening and yes its a big thing, with one company in particular being pretty big on it. Attached is proof that was sent to me by another member of the forum - I've removed some identifiable information.

One shill in particular is a pretty active account and an "old" one that would be trusted by many.


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## oliverd (Jan 23, 2018)

throwaway12 said:


> Using a throwaway here as I don't want this to be associated with my main account. Yes shilling is happening and yes its a big thing, with one company in particular being pretty big on it. Attached is proof that was sent to me by another member of the forum - I've removed some identifiable information.
> 
> One shill in particular is a pretty active account and an "old" one that would be trusted by many.



That's eh...pretty damming...


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## thereus (Jan 23, 2018)

Musicians scamming musicians.


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## mouse (Jan 24, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Are there shills? I would hope so!



Are you serious? Why would you want shills on a forum?


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## germancomponist (Jan 24, 2018)

wst3 said:


> .... It is, I'm afraid, the nature of the internet. Shilling has become so easy. ...



It's exactly what the mass media do all day, 24/7.


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## AllanH (Jan 24, 2018)

throwaway12 said:


> Using a throwaway here as I don't want this to be associated with my main account. [...]
> One shill in particular is a pretty active account and an "old" one that would be trusted by many.



This is pretty interesting and a bit disappointing if true.


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## MatFluor (Jan 24, 2018)

Ok, I get excited when a particular developer releases something new, because I like the dev's previous work. I only once (I think) participated in a hype train - nobody's perfect.

Fanboyism is a story on it's own, yes. And I don't like it when people with different opinions are afraid to post because they get pitchforked up their butts from the fanboy club.

On the other hand, shills should be pitchforked up their butt, and developers employing that practice banned from advertising. Why? Because screw them. You won't get an unbiased view in most places anyway - I've never heard somebody tear a library apart - mostly because they received it for free and could maybe face legal issues - I don't know. Just be honest and say that you are proud of your product, reviewers should also clearly state (which they mostly do) that they received the product for free and that the review might be biased towards an optimistic view.

Yes, the normal consumer should be aware of this. Hype trains are bad (see the video game industry to see why). I for my part don't buy a library when it comes out, since 90% of the people are biased, shills or otherwise paid to be positive (receiving a free product is essentially payment).

So, screw developers who use shills, boycott them and ban them


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## FriFlo (Jan 24, 2018)

chillbot said:


> If you hang around this forum long enough you certainly learn to trust certain members. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 20-30 posters who's opinion I trust and value, and there's probably a lot more... that's enough for me.
> 
> There's not much of a difference between shills and fanboys/fangirls, it's a fine line... easy to ignore both.


But don't dare to actually call out someone as a fan boy, especially if the developer is popular! If you do, prepare for a giant shit storm hitting you from all directions ... this led me to the observation that a lack of response by certain members can mean as much as there actual posts. Also, some people seem to be in the business of forum participation instead of composing, if you look at how long some threads tend to become. Little time for actual writing left, I suppose ...


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## oliverd (Jan 25, 2018)

AllanH said:


> This is pretty interesting and a bit disappointing if true.



Very. He's very active on forums, and not just this one. After looking at his posting history on here and other places I can definitely see a trend...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 25, 2018)

Pretty sure there are people here who operate under certain agendas.


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## oliverd (Feb 19, 2018)

So based on the latest threads from said developer, it would seem this is still happening. There are actually a few other shills that seem to have popped up too that help keep particular commercial threads alive....

Maybe @Mike Greene has something to say about this? Maybe its OK to use shills on here if you advertise?


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## MA-Simon (Feb 19, 2018)

Just to let everyone know for sake of transparency, I am working with Versilian Studios. But I generally avoid advertising or bringing it up, because we are a very small company. And I am... who I am. I like certain developers, and I distrust others. Yes, I am prone to fanboy-ism. But... how can you not?
So I like to stay individual, and have this account not attached to Versilian in any way, because I am just a person, with opinions.

I also grew up with the internet, so my 6th-7th-8ight? Sense is making shills very obvious to me.
But I kinda accepted it. If you use reddit in any capacity, you will eventually develop a numbness to this kinds of things. This is also why I wont ever fully trust my grandparents with using the internet. You were either born and learned with it, ore... be deceived and used by it. D:


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## synthpunk (Feb 19, 2018)

Seems like there are shills with real accounts  and it's getting out of hand IMO...


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## Mike Greene (Feb 19, 2018)

oliverd said:


> So based on the latest threads from said developer, it would seem this is still happening. There are actually a few other shills that seem to have popped up too that help keep particular commercial threads alive....
> 
> Maybe @Mike Greene has something to say about this? Maybe its OK to use shills on here if you advertise?


It's definitely not okay, even if you advertise. We've busted a few over the years, even from advertisers.

It's very, very difficult to be sure a poster is actually a shill and not just an avid fan, though. Most of the time when we get reports that someone is a shill, it turns out they are not. Last year, a couple guys were named as shills publicly here on the forum, and people sent me private "proof" (albeit circumstantial) that they were employed by a certain developer. I found the evidence convincing, so I made the accusations, and in both cases ... I was wrong. One of the guys, in fact, was a Realitone customer (owns most of my stuff) and I knew for a fact that he was a university professor on a different continent. It was very embarrassing.

So the evidence has to be very compelling. This is complicated by the fact that I doubt that many shills (if they are actually shills) would be owners or employees of a company. Instead, my guess is they are regular users who get free stuff or other enticements. No prid pro quo is spelled out, but a developer (or reseller or deals site) can assume that if they give out enough freebies, at least one or two will be a fan for life and chime in on forums and Facebook.

That's a very tough situation for me to insert myself into, because the "fans" are likely completely sincere in their praise. So how do I draw a line? _"Anyone who got free stuff can't post" _is way too draconian, since that includes a huge percentage of legitimate members here. Maybe there could be an _"I got free stuff"_ disclaimer that people would be required to post, but I could easily see that turning into a huge can of worms and moderation nightmare, where the cure is worse than the symptom.

That's not to say we're doing nothing, because in some cases, we do, but we need to be really careful about it and the evidence needs to be pretty strong. If you know of a situation, send it to me, but bear in mind it needs to more than _"they post a lot of compliments about X."_

In the case of orchproducer, I moved his threads to the Tier 2 Commercial Announcements, which is what I would have done anyway if it were posted from an 8dio profile. If orchproducer is indeed a shill (if any lawyers are reading, I am making no such claim!  ), I think they got the message and hopefully will make future announcements using a more official profile. Honestly, I have no idea why they don't already, especially with our "no negativity" policy for commercial announcements. I guess they're mad at the forum (and presumably mad at me now as well? They won't answer my emails), but still, it's free advertising, so why not post?

On a similar note, I do sometimes move threads from Sample Talk to Commercial Announcements Tier 2 when I think a company is waiting for someone (shill or otherwise) to post in Sample Talk, rather than posting an announcement of their own in CA. That's a case by case situation, obviously, but if I think a company is trying to game the forum, I step in where I can.


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## chillbot (Feb 19, 2018)

I'm sorry. What can I say, I like desks.


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## KarlHeinz (Feb 19, 2018)

What a difficult minefield.....while reading your post I begin to feel guilty myself for a moment  cause one time after being missed with a coupon code and writing a good review (which comes from the heart) I got a free copy of their next library....I was happy about it cause I bought all their other stuff and as I said, review comes from the heart, but I never thought about it in deep but it seems (as usual) borders are blurring....

One of the moments I am really happy that I dont need to make money with music and its only hobby for me. Must not be easy doing this job Mike, deep respect from me...


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## AllanH (Feb 19, 2018)

Mike Greene said:


> It's definitely not okay, even if you advertise. We've busted a few over the years, even from advertisers.
> [...]



I think this is great way to look at the issue: I like keeping VIC a friendly place, even when a vendor gets too enthusiastic from time to time. Ultimately (imo), it reflects poorly on the vendor and hurts their business and trustworthiness in the long run.


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## Mike Greene (Feb 19, 2018)

KarlHeinz said:


> What a difficult minefield.....while reading your post I begin to feel guilty myself for a moment  cause one time after being missed with a coupon code and writing a good review (which comes from the heart) I got a free copy of their next library....I was happy about it cause I bought all their other stuff and as I said, review comes from the heart, but I never thought about it in deep but it seems (as usual) borders are blurring....


You shouldn't feel guilty. If what you write is honest and well-intentioned, then please do post. This is part of why I want to be careful not to get too militant about shill-removal. As AllanH said, it's best to keep VI-C a friendly place. If a developer gave you a free copy, my guess is that was simply a nice gesture on their part, so I would hate for companies to feel they shouldn't be _too_ nice for fear of being perceived as cultivating shills, or for honest people to feel they need to curb their postings.


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