# Question to Engineers that worked with Tape Machines



## Leandro Marcos (Jan 16, 2018)

Since only you know how a real tape machine sounds, What's the closest to reality tape plugin you've used?


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## benmrx (Jan 16, 2018)

I can only speak for myself, but I used to own an Otari MTR90mk2 2" 24 track machine, and worked a ton on the MCI JH24 2" 24 track. Once the Slate VTM plugin hit...., I never looked back. I haven't used any of the UAD tape emulations, but I'm sure they are fantastic as well.


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## wst3 (Jan 16, 2018)

I still have my MCI JH-16, and I've worked with 2" machines from Sony, Studer, 3M, and Ampex - they all share certain characteristics, but they all sound a little bit different, or maybe I should say they each leave their own fingerprint on your music. I'm most familiar with the MCI, and that's what I use as a yardstick I guess.

I find most of the Tape Emulation plugins to be exaggerated. Oddly, the Fatso (hardware and software) can impart two of the most sought after effects quite well without the hiss and speed variations. So I'd definitely give that a listen. The SPL Vitalizer does a decent enough job too, although I definitely prefer the Fatso.

That said, the Fatso adds some warmth, and some compression, but it still doesn't sound like a tape machine.

Its been a while since I tried the Slate and Waves tape plugins. I don't know if they've made them capable of more subtle effects or not, but when I tried them I did not like them.

When UA introduced their ATR-102 and Studer A-800 plugins I very nearly ignored them. Curiosity won out, and I'm glad, because these plugins, especially the Studer, can impart everything from very subtle to over-the-top coloring to a track. I use the Studer on as many tracks as I can, especially any audio I've recorded myself. I use the Ampex on the 2-mix. The only thing missing (hint hint UA) is some bleed between tracks for the Studer. That would be awesome.

Aside - I set up a template for a small project where I could add some crosstalk between adjacent tracks. It took FOREVER to tweak it, and the tweaks are project specific, but I loved the result. I'd probably never do it again, but it really made a sonic difference.

Anyway, if you have a UAD card or Apollo I'd gladly recommend you give the UAD plugins a try. Otherwise this is very much one of those personal taste issues, and you need to give as many a try as you can. And don't overlook the Fatso.


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## Henu (Jan 16, 2018)

wst3 said:


> I find most of the Tape Emulation plugins to be exaggerated.



This. Nevertheless, I haven't tried the UA ones but find VTM the most authentic - sounding of those I've used.


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## jcrosby (Jan 17, 2018)

I'd say give Acustica Audio's Nebula 'N4' a go, but unfortunately there's no easy way to demo tape machines as all of the best emulations have been done by third parties... demoing Nebula/N4 gives you a fairly limited view of how much of a beats it is...​
That said Nebula 'samples' (using a proprietary method they call 'dynamic convolution') up to 10 harmonics, the 'fingerprint of up to 10 dynamic and tonal behaviors (as a tape machine's footprint changes depending on how hard you hit it... And, they have some pretty fantastic interpolation happening between each of the dynamic/harmonic layers, so you wind with an organic blend between them...) There are tonal/dynamic impulses of most tpae machines out there... Otaris, Ampex's, Studer A series and Revox, Wollensaks... even Teacs and more obscure/colorful models as well... Some have also sample a ton of tape stocks as well... (N4's a little DIY... It has a learning curve, but very cool once you dive deep with it...)

With all that said it's been a dogs age since I've worked with physical tape, but there is something that the developers who sample tape machines capture that I haven't been able to find in Slate, UAD, Softube...
One other thing to consider is Acustica's technology is anything but forgiving on CPU... It's demanding to say the least... I either render or resample using it... Fitting it i Live it a template isn't likely to happen without pulling your hair out.

If curious I'd say chime in over at the GS thread and see what people think... Even the finickiest of hardware snobs seem to find little, if any reason to complain about the authenticity of their emulations... As someone who's owned quite a bit of hardware over they years I have to agree.. they capture something that basically no other plugin I've found quite accomplishes... (I'm a UAD die-hard, do find myself reaching for the Acustica version these days myself...)

Anyway if you feel like taking a peer behind the veil: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...dio-acqua-plugins-general-discussion-366.html (Easily get the award for most epic GS thread I know of... 366 pages and counting )


N4 product page:
http://www.acustica-audio.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=177&category_id=28&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=189

Most popular 3rd party Tape library developers:
https://www.timpetherick.co.uk/downloads/category/tape/
https://www.timpetherick.co.uk/downloads/t-tape/

http://cdsoundmaster.com/site/cds-software-online/r2r.html
http://cdsoundmaster.com/site/cds-software-online/APX.html
http://cdsoundmaster.com/site/cds-software-online/tb.html
http://cdsoundmaster.com/r2rmanual.pdf

http://signaltonoize.com/?p=2957
http://signaltonoize.com/?p=3002


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 17, 2018)

U-He Satin does it for me.


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## Scoremixer (Jan 17, 2018)

I'm not quite of the generation of engineers who had to use tape day-in-day-out, but I've done some. Thing is, there are lots of machines and tape formulations. The Studer A827s we have (which was the very last generation of tape machines) are remarkably clean and transparent pieces of engineering. I've done several sessions either tracking through the machine into PT, or where the studio has been booked specifically to bounce tracks through to get that 'tape' sound. People quickly realise there's actually not much to be gained, certainly when the extra noise and workflow limitations are taken into account. 

With that said, I think that the Slate VTM really doesn't sound like any tape machine I've ever used- but that's what actually makes it useful! It's more like an overall enhancer- you get a level bump, a bit of a smiley face EQ curve (particularly there's a big bass bump that I normally trim down) and it makes everything a bit more in your face. Waves Kramer tape is also pretty good for that kind of effect (tonally flatter in the low end to my ears) and you can probably pick it up cheap in one of their everlasting sales.

In terms of authenticity, the Softube Tape is the most realistic thing I own- it doesn't flatter you by blowing up the bass or boosting the level (unless you ask it too). That's probably the reason I use it the least out of everything I have. Also heard good things about the UAD Studer A80 emulation, from people who did use tape everyday.


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## d.healey (Jan 17, 2018)

Easiest way to find out - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-GRUNDIG-TK5-REEL-TO-REEL-TAPE-MACHINE-Rare-item/322995832330?hash=item4b340d460a:g:CJQAAOSwN2VZQq1q


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## Living Fossil (Jan 17, 2018)

@Leandro Marcos : first of all, i have to say that is has a bit of a disrespectful taste that you open another thread on the same topic, assuming that the answers you've got previously were automatically given by persons who don't know the real thing... 
Therefore, i'll keep my answer short. 
The times i've worked with real tape (which is quite a while ago), the goal was to get a "clean" sound rather than to get that exaggerated sound that is usually reproduced by the tape effects.
The effect of real tape, when properly used, is rather subtle. 
Because you mentioned buzz words like "making a flat mix come alive" etc. i'm not sure that that's really what you're after...


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## synthpunk (Jan 17, 2018)

UAD Ampex for me. Simply the best.

As others have pointed out other plugins like Satin, Saturn, etc. do there own thing as well. And Toneboosters Reelbus & Airwindows ToTape5 are nice lower cost alternatives.


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## wst3 (Jan 17, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> The times i've worked with real tape (which is quite a while ago), the goal was to get a "clean" sound rather than to get that exaggerated sound that is usually reproduced by the tape effects.


And that's the thing, when all we had was tape we spent a LOT of time and energy trying to make the "sound" of tape go away. There's something ironic in there!



Living Fossil said:


> The effect of real tape, when properly used, is rather subtle.


I think that is very true today. We want the "euphonically pleasing" effect without all the nasty artifacts. Which is why each developer has their own take on what a tape emulation should be.



Living Fossil said:


> Because you mentioned buzz words like "making a flat mix come alive" etc. i'm not sure that that's really what you're after...


Could be the case, or for someone that never dealt with tape it could be simply wanting to find out what all the fuss is about.


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## chimuelo (Jan 17, 2018)

Satin is my fav because it also emulates authentic tape flange too.
Best feature is how you can RETRIGGER via MIDI.


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## conan (Jan 17, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> The times i've worked with real tape (which is quite a while ago), the goal was to get a "clean" sound rather than to get that exaggerated sound that is usually reproduced by the tape effects.
> The effect of real tape, when properly used, is rather subtle.
> Because you mentioned buzz words like "making a flat mix come alive" etc. i'm not sure that that's really what you're after...



This. The goal with tape was to to overcome (or at least minimize) its limitations. Only later did the idea of adding "tape mojo" become a Quixotic quest. Most emulations today highlight the ability to exaggerate its issues in order to produce a very noticeable effect. I sometimes use u-He Satin to smooth out the sound or give it a slightly vintage quality, and Goodhertz WOW Control for a more dramatic presentation.

FWIW, this song is fullof u-He Satin, as well as a Chase Audio Warped Vinyl on the Moog Sub 37. The effect varies from subtle to highly pronounced, depending on the individaul track/instrument.


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## germancomponist (Jan 17, 2018)

If you like experimenting:

Duplicate an audio track (or your master track) and insert in one of them an overdrive-, eq/filter- and compressor plugin. Experiment with all the knobs, use the eq/filter extremley and mix it delicate to the original track. You will be amazed what is possible.
And: only trust your ears!


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## dflood (Jan 17, 2018)

conan said:


> The goal with tape was to to overcome (or at least minimize) its limitations.



That's what I remember!


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## Leandro Marcos (Jan 17, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> @Leandro Marcos : first of all, i have to say that is has a bit of a disrespectful taste that you open another thread on the same topic, assuming that the answers you've got previously were automatically given by persons who don't know the real thing...


It wasn't that my intention at all, but I understand how it might have been received by some, from the point of view you mention. My apologies to anyone who felt offended. This forum is my favorite of all the forums I've ever been in, mainly because of how helpful and how respectful everyone is. The least thing I would ever want to be in this forums is disrespectful. My apologies if my attitude was regarded as such. It's never been my intention.


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## davidgary73 (Jan 17, 2018)

Softube Tape is good and simple to use..give it a try.


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## Phillip (Jan 18, 2018)

Try working with an actual tape machine ( not clean Studer but older more colourful MCI or similar). Then try plugins. Only then you will be able to understand what are you trying to achieve and what plugins may get you closer in that direction. Train your ears before grabbing software.


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## kurtvanzo (Jan 18, 2018)

Phillip said:


> Try working with an actual tape machine ( not clean Studer but older more colourful MCI or similar). Then try plugins. Only then you will be able to understand what are you trying to achieve and what plugins may get you closer in that direction. Train your ears before grabbing software.



This is a bit like saying if you want to know what it's like to be an astronaut, first jump on a rocket to the moon.... the ticket is a little hard to come by. So is a studio with a properly aligned 2" Studer or MCI that will allow a newbie to "have his way" with it. Nice idea in theory though.



After working on many through the 80's, 90's, and 2000's I can agree with others that the point was to make the tape as transparent as possible, yet add a little warmth and compression. After using VTM and a few other emulations I can tell you you're probably better off with a really great compressor, eq, and saturator. U-He's Pressworks has a great compressor with saturation built in, nice and warm with some great silky presets. Has the old school warmth without the noise.
https://www.u-he.com/cms/presswerk
For more precision I use Fab Filter eq, compression, limiting, de-esser; but the pressworks works well on almost everything. For some great sheen consider Clariphonic by Kush Audio too (they have a half price sale once a year  )
http://www.thehouseofkush.com/plugins/clariphonic-dsp


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## muk (Jan 19, 2018)

Here is a link to a thread with a direct comparison between recording to tape vs digital:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/recording-to-tape-vs-digital-direct-comparison.58826/

The most interesting aspect to me was not the warmth or flutter and flange, but the wider stereo image of the tape recording. I don't think that any of the tape emulation plugins have that effect.


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## wst3 (Jan 19, 2018)

muk said:


> Here is a link to a thread with a direct comparison between recording to tape vs digital:
> 
> https://vi-control.net/community/threads/recording-to-tape-vs-digital-direct-comparison.58826/
> 
> The most interesting aspect to me was not the warmth or flutter and flange, but the wider stereo image of the tape recording. I don't think that any of the tape emulation plugins have that effect.



A lot of folks (all much smarter than I) have spent some energy trying to figure out this "feature". The current consensus (certainly subject to change<G>) is that it is a function of crosstalk or bleed.

Here's an interesting experiment you can try at home:

Start with a realtively simple project (even 8 tracks can get cumbersome).

Add sends from each track to adjacent tracks. As an example - 

send channel 1 to channel 2
send channel 2 to channels 1 & 3
send channel 3 to channels 2 & 4
send channel 4 to channels 3 & 5
send channel 5 to channels 4 & 6
send channel 6 to channels 5 & 7
send channel 7 to channels 6 & 8
send channel 8 to channels 7
Set the send levels very low, a little bit goes a long way. It is also very helpful to insert an equalizer into each send so you can band limit the crosstalk.

Not every DAW will let you do this directly, so you may need to set up auxiliary busses to get the effect.

As you start to add crosstalk you should start to hear the stereo image become more complex, not sure I'd call it wider, but I guess that's descriptive. Again you don't need a lot. And if you are a real glutton for punishment you can extend that so that, for example channel 1 feeds channel 2 at some level, and channel 3 at some lower level. 

And now you also get an idea of the complexity, and why it isn't a feature of every tape plugin<G>! But it is a fun exercise.

(I really wish I had the time - and intelligence - to write this plugin!)


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## Leandro Marcos (Jan 19, 2018)

wst3 said:


> (I really wish I had the time - and intelligence - to write this plugin!)



You don't need time nor the intelligence. You just need the money to pay someone else to do it an become the next Slate Digital or Waves  Unfortunately I don't have any of the three


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## wst3 (Jan 20, 2018)

Leandro Marcos said:


> You don't need time nor the intelligence. You just need the money to pay someone else to do it an become the next Slate Digital or Waves  Unfortunately I don't have any of the three



Good point! Time to go find that coffee can I buried in the back yard<G>!


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