# AG Toolkit for Logic artic control - discussion thread



## mc_deli (Apr 11, 2017)

I thought it might be useful to share experiences with AG Toolkit. At least I am interested in how other people use it.

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I just got Ivan's email with the 5.2 update. The content is amazing I think. 
I counted 20 instruction videos - I watched half of them and they were really clear.
When I think about my first experience with the AG scripts a couple of years ago, I think it is great that Ivan has made it so much easier to create and duplicate maps. The new Lemur remote control features also look amazing. 
---
I am using legacy AG v1.1 expression maps. At some point soon I will remake my orch template with these 5.2 features and the Lemur remote control. 

What about you?


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## anp27 (Apr 11, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> I thought it might be useful to share experiences with AG Toolkit. At least I am interested in how other people use it.
> 
> ---
> I just got Ivan's email with the 5.2 update. The content is amazing I think.
> ...



I've been using the AG Toolkit since version 1 and I can't believe how far it's come.. before the Toolkit came into existence, I would always be jealous of the Cubase guys and their Expression Maps.. not since I started using the Toolkit. I actually don't use most of the newer features and I don't use the iPad/Lemur stuff either but it looks really helpful and I'm sure the guys that do use those devices benefit from it. Ivan is simply a genius and seems to always break the barriers of what Logic/the Environment can do. I too have to take a look at my older maps at some point, thanks for the reminder!


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## sunnymusic (Apr 12, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> I thought it might be useful to share experiences with AG Toolkit. At least I am interested in how other people use it.
> 
> ---
> I just got Ivan's email with the 5.2 update. The content is amazing I think.
> ...



To develop my workflow, I bought iPAD. The Lemur & Logic template which AG team offered in this 5.2 update work seamlessly beautifully together. That's exactly what I've been looking for. It's very hassle to check if I put right key in the keyboard for keyswitching because Logic doesn't have expression map unlike Cubase.
I'm waiting for a bigger template which include many Multi & Mono Inst. than current template. They're now working on it. I'd like to say they're amazing people. Great assistance and kind e-mail replies.
Also I'd like to say they absolutely made Logic better DAW program for sample-based composers!


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## karusz (Apr 14, 2017)

Hello, I bought the AG Toolkit a few months ago. I managed to test it. I have a feeling that it gives me a lot of freedom, because while creating music you cannot think of technical things. I am trying to work with big templates - was thinking many times which developer to choose for switching articulation, but Ivan was listening to what composers need - I asked him if he could do assignable faders to control volume, expression etc - and voila, here it is. Changing articulation and no faders was not enough for me. And what I really like: it is everything on one iPad c - that you can easily work- there are no huge faders for a half of the screen, everything clear and well designed graphically. I cannot wait for the version that can store 100 or 200 pages not just 35, but I was trying to use 2 iPads successfully when it was not enough for me. Keep up the good work and please listen to what people need. And what is the greatest AG tools CAN REED script parameters names and teleport them to iPad, so you never need to enter any aritculation names manually which saves months.


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## anp27 (Apr 17, 2017)

Wow, after reading these responses it's made me curious about finally incorporating an iPad into my setup...


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## procreative (Apr 17, 2017)

Just an opinion, have used Art Conductor which uses the same design principle, using automation to trigger articulations. Both AG and this offer quick, visually helpful ways to switch articulations.

But, the flaw with using automation I found was that the automation has to occur before the note and chasing is not always good and sometimes notes hang.

In the end I switched to ArtzID, its not as visually intuitive and editing involves the Event Editor rather than dragging automation, but its bang on accurate. Every note will always chase and its much less prone to note hangs.

Now if someone could improve the visual side it would be perfect.

I am in the process of creating templates on an iPad using Lemur/Composer Tools Pro. A bit more work but it will be worth it, eventually...


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## Ashermusic (Apr 17, 2017)

procreative said:


> J
> In the end I switched to ArtzID, its not as visually intuitive and editing involves the Event Editor rather than dragging automation, but its bang on accurate. Every note will always chase and its much less prone to note hangs.
> 
> Now if someone could improve the visual side it would be perfect.



Have you tried the latest version where you see the articulations in the Smart Controls?


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## A.G (Apr 18, 2017)

Hello,
First, I want to thank *mc_delli*, for starting this new AG Logic Toolkit discussion thread.
There are tons of new things which were included in the latest AG COMPLETE updates, so a new look at this topic will give more information to the people who try to compare it to anything else.


procreative said:


> Just an opinion, have used Art Conductor which uses the same design principle, using automation to trigger articulations. I found was that the automation has to occur before the note and chasing is not always good and sometimes notes hang.


The same design principle? Right, Logic uses automation control points to automate million plugins but it does not mean that they are the same! It seems you have tried only Art Conductor, and I do believe that you had some problems with the chasing and note hanging, but I assure you that all is perfect in the AG system.
The new AG automation control points system is region based and the external articulation remote events are recorded as real MIDI messages and shown in the Piano Roll - is that possible in Art Conductor?
Apple did a lot in the latest updates and we tested the articulation accuracy using several VEPro machines. Apple implemented a new MIDI accuracy for patch changing, mostly Program Change and some other types. For example if you have a patch change event and note event placed on the same time (bar 4.1.1.1 for example), then the patch event is sent before the note event. AG system is based on real MIDI event triggering - the automation points are only a visual aid.

You missed to mention the AG Maps EDITOR software? Do you have an idea what that MONSTER does?
Here is *The Main Concept*: iPad <=teleport layer <= AG Maps EDITOR =>teleport articulations=> Logic (+ 400 Instruments with Bidirectional control which supports several iPads and other MIDI devices presets recall switching). Is there any other DAW system which can build iPad Articulation (3rd Party Instruments) remote layouts automatically?

*Note*: AG system can work with Standard Instruments (Ch.All) and Multi Timbral Instruments (using a single MIDI FX for Ch.1-16). The Multis break down the Logic 256 Instruments limitation easily. The Scripter is absolutely POOR and you cannot do too much without a special Software Editor. You can order the Articulations as you want (the KS, CC, PC are embedded into the Maps) and teleport ONLY the programed parameters to Logic - all non-programed parameters are ignored intelligently. In this regard you can use thousands of Instruments hosted on VEPro which is the AG goal.







Procreative & Ashermusic, it seems that you are in a wrong forum topic guys...


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## Ashermusic (Apr 18, 2017)

Ivan, I was just responding to his comment. As you know, I gave the AG Toolkit Pro a very positive review in AskAudio Magazine so I certainly am not knocking it. Anyway, this is a discussion thread, not a Commercial Announcements thread.


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## A.G (Apr 18, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Anyway, this is a discussion thread, not a Commercial Announcements thread.


Discussion thread about what?


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## Ashermusic (Apr 18, 2017)

Just that the rules are looser in this than a Commercial Announcement thread.

But carry on.


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## procreative (Apr 18, 2017)

A.G said:


> Discussion thread about what?



This is a non commercial thread raising this product for discussion. Therefore we are all free to make comparisons.

I do believe you have yourself jumped in to many "rival" threads in the past? I am not sure why you feel the need to get defensive, its not like I said "don't buy" I merely stated my reservations about automation based triggering.

By the way I do not see anything majorly different about the way the automation events are recorded using your system. I believe the same potential issues may apply as nothing on your site indicates how it is different?

Region based automation generates issues, the first note in each region sometimes will not trigger correctly unless the automation occurs before which means having regions before the bar they start notes on. Which makes moving regions or copying them trickier.

Theres a lot to like about the way they work visually and editing/making changes afterwards, but automation is not fullproof and as I said neither is the other system in other ways.


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## A.G (Apr 18, 2017)

procreative said:


> This is a non commercial thread raising this product for discussion. Therefore we are all free to make comparisons.


It is a discussion thread not comparison!
To post a discussion here, you have to own the latest version of that product and be a little bit familiar with it. Do you?


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## mark.warman (Apr 19, 2017)

procreative said:


> Region based automation generates issues, the first note in each region sometimes will not trigger correctly unless the automation occurs before which means having regions before the bar they start notes on. Which makes moving regions or copying them trickier.





A.G said:


> Apple implemented a new MIDI accuracy for patch changing, mostly Program Change and some other types. For example if you have a patch change event and note event placed on the same time (bar 4.1.1.1 for example), then the patch event is sent before the note event.



Does this mean that using Program Change messages as the chosen mechanism to trigger Articulation Changes is the most reliable method?


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## A.G (Apr 19, 2017)

mark.warman said:


> Does this mean that using Program Change messages as the chosen mechanism to trigger Articulation Changes is the most reliable method?



Hi Mark,
The new AG Logic Articulation Switching system implemented in COMPLETE v5.2 is powered by two types of articulation Maps triggering methods:
• True MIDI Articulation Change events which are shown as automation control points (names) in the Logic Piano Roll and in the Main Window.
• Standard Program Change events which are shown as custom articulation names in the Event list editor.
*Both methods are reliable, and behave as a true MIDI patch change! *
The Articulation Switching position accuracy is powered by the following Apple Patch change law:

If the Note event and the Patch change event are set to 
the same position, then the Patch change event is placed 
before the Note event automatically. The Patch change event 
is sent to the Instrument before the Note event. 

The articulation change events (method 1) look like automation control points, however they are true MIDI events which follow the Apple patch change law.
The external articulation remote control messages (KS or Program sent from a Keyboard or iPad), are transformed into true Articulation Change MIDI events in real time during the Logic recording.
The articulation change events *are embedded into the MIDI regions so you can cut/slice, copy and move the regions* without any problems.
• The *articulation chasing* is perfect after the cut/slice, copy, move regions.
• The *Score is clean*. The articulation Maps Key Switches are not printed in the Score.
• You can *transpose the MIDI regions* without destroying the Key Switch pitches.
• The MIDI Channel switching for Instruments such as: LASS, Berlin, EW *does not cause any note hanging *(guaranteed).
• The Apple Patch Change law works with Standard Instrument tracks (Ch.All) and Multi Timbral Instruments (tracks Ch.1-16). AG System supports Mono & Multi Instruments breaking down the 256 Instruments limitation without a problem.

I just exported a short Video where I demonstrate the Articulation Change and the Note events position accuracy. For the sake of this demo I used a simple Kontakt factory strings patch. We have tested that accuracy with several VEPro 6 instances hosted on different machines and the Apple patch change law woks in the same way I show in the Video.


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## Peter Schwartz (Apr 21, 2017)

procreative said:


> ...Every note will always chase and its much less prone to note hangs....
> 
> Now if someone could improve the visual side it would be perfect.



Hi procreative,

Just two quick things... Notes never hang as a result of the way my systems work. In fact, the way the systems are designed, that's not even possible. If you hear hanging notes, it's more likely to be a hung sustain pedal, which is a problem with Logic, not my systems.

Visual feedback... there are two places you can see what articulation is selected. Three, in fact. IMO, the Smart Control display is the best, most non-invasive way to show both the Standby and Live articulation choices, as that window can be instantly shown/hidden using a simple key command.

HTH


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## Peter Schwartz (Apr 21, 2017)

mark.warman said:


> Does this mean that using Program Change messages as the chosen mechanism to trigger Articulation Changes is the most reliable method?



No. It's just one method, but not necessarily or specifically "the most reliable".

BTW, there has been no change in the way Logic outputs MIDI with respect to program change messages & their proximity to note messages. At least since Logic 9, if not much earlier versions, if a program change and a note event occur "simultaneously", Logic outputs the Program Change message before the note. Here's a screenshot from Logic 9.1.7 showing this, as confirmed by viewing the outputted data using an independent MIDI monitor program.


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## A.G (Apr 22, 2017)

mark.warman said:


> Does this mean that using Program Change messages as the chosen mechanism to trigger Articulation Changes is the most reliable method?


Mark, in my previous reply I confirmed that both AG articulation maps triggering are reliable. In my previous Video example I used articulation control messages (method 1), however the Program Change method with the same Program and Note positioning works in the same way - the Program (respectively the Articulation Map switching) is sent before the Note event to the Instrument.
Some AG users reported that they make a Program Change articulation switching project version and save it as a SMF to be able to cooperate that project with Cubase projects which is another alternative of the AG system. There is a sense in that because the new Cubase versions support Program Change Expression Maps triggering. The Program Change is still the main patch change standard supported by all DAWs, that's why we implemented that sort of articulations switching (which can be compatible with any DAW in the future). Logic Art IDs and the Cubase Note Expressions are DAW specific so they cannot be used in the other DAWs as an universal Articulation Maps change method.

*BTW*. We are working on the big MONSTER: AG Cubase & Logic Articulation maps ultra EDITOR, which will unify both standards once and forever... I.e AG Logic Maps can be loaded into Cubase and Cubase Expression Maps can be loaded into Logic. I guess the Cubase users will be happy with our unique iPad Articulation teleport system which is a lack in Cubase.


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 24, 2017)

After some days of experience with this new tool I think it would be good to share my thoughts about it.
I am amazed how handy my template has become with the new AG version. It takes a little bit of your time to learn how to use it and to implement it in a large template but the time will be well invested for the future.
The editor seemed complicated to me at first but after watching the videos it became very simple. I specially like it because I know nothing about Logic scripting and very little about Lemur.
With some simple editions in the AG Editor you can export scripts to both Logic and Ipad. Everything is ready and the Lemur layout looks beautiful. At least much better than the one i have made  which btw took me days to make long ago.
Another aspect is the organization which is very important for templates. The AG folder comes in a neat way and if you watch the videos you are going to see suggestions of how to keep everything handy and in places.
I also have to mention how helpful Ivan has been to me. I am far from being an expert in scripting and his support was absolutely the best I could ever have from a developer. He was willing to spend more than a hour with me on Skype just to get me going on and understand the basics. His support is continuous.
I fully support the idea of this product to be sold with the sample libraries.


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## Softmo06004 (Apr 24, 2017)

_*BTW*. We are working on the big MONSTER: AG Cubase & Logic Articulation maps ultra EDITOR, which will unify both standards once and forever... I.e AG Logic Maps can be loaded into Cubase and Cubase Expression Maps can be loaded into Logic. I guess the Cubase users will be happy with our unique iPad Articulation teleport system which is a lack in Cubase.[/QUOTE]_

Terrific!!!


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## A.G (Apr 27, 2017)

sunnymusic said:


> I'm waiting for a bigger template which include many Multi & Mono Inst. than current template. They're now working on it.


Hi,
We provided an AG COMPLETE 5.2.1 update lately which offers two massive Orchestral templates (Mono & Multi Inst) - 400 Instruments in total, which supports an iPad Lemur & TouchOSC presets Recall (vai track selection).
Did you get v5.2.1?
BTW. We are working on another project which will offer much more Logic Instruments (over 1000) with multi device presets/layouts "Recall" system.


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## greenpiano (Jun 11, 2017)

A.G said:


> BTW. We are working on another project which will offer much more Logic Instruments (over 1000) with multi device presets/layouts "Recall" system.



Can I know when you will release the template including over 1000 Inst.?


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## A.G (Jun 12, 2017)

greenpiano said:


> Can I know when you will release the template including over 1000 Inst.?


We age going to release that in the next update.


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## karusz (Jul 2, 2017)

The product would be just PERFECT if it is able to have more that 100 recalls. Anyway the idea of everyhting in one page (both with sliders) and first of all the ART Editor Pro is very very innovative!


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## Nmargiotta (Jul 2, 2017)

sunnymusic said:


> To develop my workflow, I bought iPAD. The Lemur & Logic template which AG team offered in this 5.2 update work seamlessly beautifully together.


I recently picked up lemur to do this vary setup with Logic X and haven't the slightest clue how to setup the ag template or any template into Lemur. Did you follow a video or step by step tutorial? If so I'd love to check it out.


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## A.G (Jul 2, 2017)

Nmargiotta said:


> Did you follow a video or step by step tutorial? If so I'd love to check it out.



AG COMPLETE 5.2.1 comes with detail HD Video tutorials (Part 1 & Part 2). Download Part 2 for example and go to the folder labeled as:
*8. LEMUR iPad AG Remote Workstation*. Watch the Videos placed in that folder - everything is very simple and understandable.

Later, if you want to try out the AG Orchestral templates which support iPad (or any MIDI device) Preset/iPad layout recall function you can go to the: *10. Bidirectional Remote Video* tutorial folder and watch the related Videos.

*BTW*. We are working on a new AG Multimedia online manager which will be released in the upcoming updates. The online manager will allow you to watch private HD Video Tutorials online (you can use any mobile device for that). The manager will also offer you a quick video Content navigator (with embedded hyper links) as well a short Video tutorial description.
Those who cannot wait until this update can contact us to get a private online list with the prepared online Video tutorials.


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