# Patchbay - which one and setup questions



## A3D2 (Feb 15, 2018)

Hi everyone,

I've reached the point where I can't connect all my hardware stuff to my very humble 8 inputs audio interface  anymore and I was thinking about getting a patchbay as a solution to expand upon the inputs since I'm never playing all those synths at once when recording and because I want to be able to route them through guitar amps, preamps, compressors etc and switch things up from time to time. Would be great to have them connected all the time though in the patchbay so that I don't have to disconnect and re-connect stuff the way I'm doing now.

But I am a total newbie when it comes to patchbays: what would be a decent one for a price that isn't too steep?
I've seen ones that are very very cheap like the Behringer PX 3000, but have read many contradictory things about it's quality. :s 
What are your go-to good audio fidelity and durable patchbay brands?

Thanks for the advice,

Cheers


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## synthpunk (Feb 16, 2018)

Neutrik NYS-SPP-L1
$75 at B&H


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## Polkasound (Feb 16, 2018)

+1 for Neutrik. I would avoid used Tascam patchbays because they can become problematic with age, and I'm not a fan of the DBX PB-48 because the I/O cards are not well supported and tend to move around.


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## A3D2 (Feb 19, 2018)

@synthpunk @Polkasound thanks for the suggestions guys! Is this unit sturdy and durable quality-wise?
And does the Neutrik patchbay influence the quality of the audio signal in any way? Or is the signal clean and does it sound he same afterwards as when it entered the Neutrik pathbay?


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## X-Bassist (Feb 19, 2018)

I would doubt a patchbay, especially one as simple as this, could color the sound. But keep in mind the cables and connection should be regularly cleaned (once a month or so) even when not used. Dust, smoke, pulling on cables (instead of grabbing the connector) are usually the biggest issues with patchbays. My suggestion is to get some great TRS cables for the front (short) and back (long).

The best inexpensive cables I’ve seen lately are monoprice. They are very well made and sell on amazon for about a quarter of the price of monster cable. Get great cables and most of your patchbay problems are solved for the next couple of decades. 
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p...b13UEN6eU9kHdWxEfmVAyx-jaxIF8cmsaAjXqEALw_wcB


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## synthpunk (Feb 19, 2018)

Patchbays in general are pretty neutral as long as there kept clean and free of oxidation. (I suggest having a air duster, Isopropyl alcohol, and Caig products) and you use good quality cabling such as Mogami or even the Monoprice budget cables mentioned above. For the money the Neutrik is good, they are one of two largest jack manufacturers in the world. Some people do not like flipping the channel cards though. Even the Behringer PX is not bad actually. But if you want the best I suggest a professional TT connector patchbay from Redco.com Mind you the price will reflect the professionalism!


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## Polkasound (Feb 19, 2018)

The only thing a patchbay does is introduce a series of solder joints and metal-on-metal connections into the signal path. If just one of those connection points goes bad, it can degrade the signal. That's why it's important to buy well-made cables and keep the plug/jack connections free of contaminants like dust and corrosion.

Monoprice, as suggested by X-Bassist, makes good cables. I also recommend the patch cables from Seismic Audio. A few years ago I ordered about 25 patch cables from them. Their solder connections are as good as any other cable I've seen, and I haven't had a single problem with one of their cables yet. The one cable brand I don't recommend, based on my experience with their longevity, is Hosa.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Feb 19, 2018)

If you like, I have a number of patchbays (including multiple Neutriks) that I'm trying to get rid of for dirt cheap. Since my room has basically nothing but speakers, I have no need for them. Let me know if you're interested.

All patchbays (except maybe some of the digital ones) will affect the sound but you probably wouldn't notice it. It's more of an issue for mastering studios.


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## A3D2 (Feb 20, 2018)

hi everyone! thank you so much for all the good advice. I'll make sure to buy good cables and keep the bay and cables clean. Thanks for the offer @Gerhard Westphalen, unfortunately I had already ordered the suggested Neutrik NYS-SPP-L1 before reading your post . But I'm sure you'll make someone else happy with it! Looking forward to be able to connect everything


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## A3D2 (Sep 4, 2018)

"Looking forward to be able to connect everything " is what I said in february... It's september now and I still didn't connect my stuff to the patchbay yet . It's a total new 'patchbay' world for me and although I have read a lot about it in the meantime, I still have some (probably really really dumb) questions. I have more instruments and gear than I can connect to my 8 inputs audio interface and now that I am planning the patchbay I was wondering the following:

Is it possible to have (for example) 12 mono instruments patched in the patchbay top row automatically connect to 1 patchbay bottom row input that goes to my audio interface? So that when I record each instrument at a time for overdubs that they always use the same 1 input channel on my audio interface?

When you have a top row instrument set to 'normalled' and there is no input connected below (like the 11 ones that aren't directly above the bottom input one), do they automatically find the first connected input to either side on the bottom row of the patchbay? Or is that wishful thinking and am I better off by setting all 12 instruments to "thru" mode and just connect the instrument I need each time by patching it to that 1 input with a cable?


Thanks for the help


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 4, 2018)

It sounds like what you really want is a mixer.

I ended up finding it easier to just get more inputs for my audio interface.


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## JohnG (Sep 4, 2018)

A3D2 said:


> When you have a top row instrument set to 'normalled' and there is no input connected below (like the 11 ones that aren't directly above the bottom input one), do they automatically find the first connected input to either side on the bottom row of the patchbay?



That is a good idea but I've never heard of a patchbay with such a capability. Maybe you should be a part-time product designer?


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## A3D2 (Sep 5, 2018)

@Dewdman42 yeah, I suppose that kind of is a 'mixer-like' usability I hoped the pathbay also had.
@JohnG Would be nice for a patchbay to be able to do that: maybe I'll send a suggestion to the manufacturer .


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## Ryan (Sep 5, 2018)

Hi

Make sure to get a Bantam patchbay. Smaller footprint. If you are good at soldering, get one you could solder. Also check out some older broadcast bantam patchbays. They are rock solid, and easy to configure (if you have time for some soldering).


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 5, 2018)

A3D2 said:


> @Dewdman42 yeah, I suppose that kind of is a 'mixer-like' usability I hoped the pathbay also had.
> @JohnG Would be nice for a patchbay to be able to do that: maybe I'll send a suggestion to the manufacturer .



The thing is most patch bays are very simple wire connectors. In order to have something fancy that would automatically route any of 12 to the same connectors you’d need something to isolate, like some fancy isolation transformers and other complicated stuff, you basically need a mixer at unity gain, or the audio card itself isolates by converting to digital. In your case you need an audio card that has built in digital mixing capability so that all 12 devices feed one single audio input port in your daw.


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## A3D2 (Sep 7, 2018)

@Ryan Thanks for the suggestion. But I already bought an Neutrik NYS-SPP-L1 earlier this year. 
@Dewdman42 yeah it would be nice to have to have another audio card, but for the time I'll manage by manually plugging in the instrument I need to the audio card on my patchbay.

Does anyone know if it is dangerous to have some audio interface outputs and inputs connected to the patchbay (let's say 5-6 output) and (5-6 input) whilst recording with phantom powered mic's on your audio interface on channels 1 and 2 in your computer? Will the phantom power also somehow end up in the patchbay? or shouldn't I be worried about that... To be clear, I wouldn't route the microphones or the mic channels 1 and 2 through the patchbay.


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 7, 2018)

Please describe your entire setup. Yes you need to be careful about phantom power. Just remember the patchbay doesn’t really have any electronics. It’s just a circuit connector. So if you route phantom power to something that can’t handle it then beware


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## A3D2 (Sep 8, 2018)

My setup would be: audio interface outputs 5-6 (not the audio interface's main outputs) are routed into the patchbay. Then normalled into stereo pair of preamps, into stereo pair of eq, into stereo pair of compressors and then finally back into audio interface inputs 5 and 6. Other patchbay inputs are from 12 instruments which I will connect to audio input 7 on my audio interface via the patchbay. I then always just patch in the instrument I need or first patch it through the preamps or eq's before going in to input 7.

That would be it.

However, my audio interface has 2 mic inputs that you can toggle phantom power on when needed to record. These mic inputs use channels 1 and 2. These inputs aren't connected to the patchbay. Do I then need to disconnect outputs 5-7 and inputs 5-7 every timeI want to record anything with phantom power on my audio interface? I assumed this wouldn't matter as 1 and 2 aren't routed to the patchbay: but because I don't know for sure I wanted to ask it to you guys because you have more experience with patchbays 
And also because I don't want my equipment to die of course.

Thanks


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## rootstudio (Sep 8, 2018)

My Neutrik patchbays have been going for years (actually: decades) without a hitch. And contrary to a post above they were never cleaned, certainly not once a month. I've never heard of such a thing. BUT: you want to treat it with the same care you (should) use for everything else, i.e. always pulling cables by the plug, never the cable, no unnecessay bending, etc. Then it will survive you.

Oh, and get some half-normalled ones. They save a lot of time and keep things clear.


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## A3D2 (Sep 17, 2018)

Thanks for the advice @rootstudio @Dewdman42 . Do you think with the setup I described that the phantom power switched on on my audio interface would interfere with my patchbay?

"My setup would be: audio interface outputs 5-6 (not the audio interface's main outputs) are routed into the patchbay. Then normalled into stereo pair of preamps, into stereo pair of eq, into stereo pair of compressors and then finally back into audio interface inputs 5 and 6. Other patchbay inputs are from 12 instruments which I will connect to audio input 7 on my audio interface via the patchbay. I then always just patch in the instrument I need or first patch it through the preamps or eq's before going in to input 7.

That would be it.

However, my audio interface has 2 mic inputs that you can toggle phantom power on when needed to record. These mic inputs use channels 1 and 2. These inputs aren't connected to the patchbay. Do I then need to disconnect outputs 5-7 and inputs 5-7 every timeI want to record anything with phantom power on my audio interface? I assumed this wouldn't matter as 1 and 2 aren't routed to the patchbay: but because I don't know for sure I wanted to ask it to you guys because you have more experience with patchbays 
And also because I don't want my equipment to die of course."


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## Dewdman42 (Sep 17, 2018)

The patchbay is nothing other then wire connections. It’s like a railroad track switch where you use patch cables to switch which inputs are connected to which outputs on the patchbay. 

If you connect a patch that sends phantom power to a device that can’t handle it then you’ll be in trouble. How you configure your patchbay and how you plug in the patch cables will determine whether you send phantom power from your audio interface to say one of your keyboards by accident. Yes it’s entirely possible to make that mistake. It’s also possible to avoid it if you’re careful.

Me personally I would not like having a patchbay with a mixture of inputs and outputs, some with phantom and some not. Also you have some balanced and some not. That’s too confusing for me and too easy to make a mistake.

But anyway it’s only audio inputs 1 and 2 that have phantom so I would just leave those out of the patchbay. Connect mics directly to them and don’t ever use them for keyboards or anything else. 

It’s not clear to me how you’re using preamps. Don’t they have phantom power?

Like I said I think it’s possible to get into trouble with phantom if you’re not careful. You can also be careful but me personally I don’t like having to be careful I would not use a complicated patchbay setup where I have to worry about accidentally connecting phantom power to something that can’t handle it. Also the balanced vs unbalanced and line level vs mic level; issue may come up.


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## rrichard63 (Sep 17, 2018)

A3D2 said:


> ... Do I then need to disconnect outputs 5-7 and inputs 5-7 every time I want to record anything with phantom power on my audio interface?


No.


A3D2 said:


> I assumed this wouldn't matter as 1 and 2 aren't routed to the patchbay ...


Correct.

Unless, that is, there is something wrong with the interface itself, such that the phantom power is somehow getting into the line level signals.


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## A3D2 (Sep 19, 2018)

Dewdman42 said:


> The patchbay is nothing other then wire connections. It’s like a railroad track switch where you use patch cables to switch which inputs are connected to which outputs on the patchbay.
> 
> If you connect a patch that sends phantom power to a device that can’t handle it then you’ll be in trouble. How you configure your patchbay and how you plug in the patch cables will determine whether you send phantom power from your audio interface to say one of your keyboards by accident. Yes it’s entirely possible to make that mistake. It’s also possible to avoid it if you’re careful.
> 
> ...



@Dewdman42 Normally, as good as I understand it, I would never connect any inputs with phantom power to the patchbay. Only inputs 1 and 2 on my crappy old audio interface (https://en.audiofanzine.com/firewire-interface/motu/ultralite-mk2/medias/other/a.play,m.475354.html) use phantom power to record microphones but those aren't routed to the patchbay ever. Only outputs 5 and 6 of my motu are routed in stereo to the patchbay to process stereo audio from my DAW via the pathcbay (outboard eqs, compressors, preamps). The two external preamps I was talking about don't use phantom power and will only be used to process outboard stereo synths or stereo soft synths from my daw into the preamps back into the computer.

Is there a real problem between using balanced and unbalanced randomly together? I've never had any issues with this before.

@rrichard63 Thanks for the answer! That confirms what I was thinking in the first place. I have an old motu mk2, as far as I know the phantom power used for inputs 1 and 2 never gets into the line channels...


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## rrichard63 (Sep 19, 2018)

A3D2 said:


> Is there a real problem between using balanced and unbalanced randomly together? I've never had any issues with this before.


This often works, and you'll know when it doesn't. What to do when it doesn't gets complicated. I can't do so this minute, but later today I'll post some links about this.

UPDATE:

The short version:

https://community.avid.com/forums/t/58612.aspx

The (very) long version:

https://ranecommercial.com/kb_article.php?article=2107


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## wst3 (Sep 19, 2018)

Rane Note 110, as revised, is considered by most to be the gold standard. The Clean Audio Installation Guide is darned near as valuable. The ultimate reference is Philip Giddings book Audio System Installation.

If you spend some time learning about the differences between single-ended and balanced and symmetrical inputs, outputs, and signals, and especially the difference uses of twisted pairs vs shielding you'll be way ahead of the game.

None of which directly addresses the original question. The Short Version - 

1) never run phantom power through a patch bay with "normal" connections. The switches on the jacks will arc, and that will damage them, to the point where they will damage the audio.
2) never mix inputs and outputs in a single patchbay - which isn't entirely true, but to do so you need to bundles cables carefully.
3) never mix high input impedance inputs with anything in a patchbay. The higher the impedance the more susceptible it will be to noise.
4) never run timecode or similar signals through a patchbay.
5) never mix line and microphone levels in a patchbay
6) never run loudspeaker level signals through a patchbay.
7) if you must mix single-ended and balanced sources treat them all as balanced
8) if you must mix single-ended and balanced inputs treat them all as balanced - better yet, avoid single-ended inputs

It's a start!


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## A3D2 (Sep 22, 2018)

Hi guys,

Still had a final question about the 2 external preamps I'm using to process external synths and soft synths with. I don't use phantom power on these preamps, but I do have 1 ribbon mic which only works with these preamps because it has a lot of gain. The ribbon can't take phantom power, so when I occasionally record the ribbon through 1 of these 2 preamps the phantom power is always off. Is it okay to record through the preamp when it is connected via the patchbay and routed back into my audio interface? Or can this also damage my patchbay?


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## rrichard63 (Sep 22, 2018)

A3D2 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Still had a final question about the 2 external preamps I'm using to process external synths and soft synths with. I don't use phantom power on these preamps, but I do have 1 ribbon mic which only works with these preamps because it has a lot of gain. The ribbon can't take phantom power, so when I occasionally record the ribbon through 1 of these 2 preamps the phantom power is always off. Is it okay to record through the preamp when it is connected via the patchbay and routed back into my audio interface? Or can this also damage my patchbay?


Yes. Phantom power only appears at the mic inputs of the preamp, not its outputs.


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## A3D2 (Sep 22, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> Yes. Phantom power only appears at the mic inputs of the preamp, not its outputs.


@rrichard63 Ok, good to know that I can still record my ribbon mic with that preamp through the pathbay . Would be a hassle if I'd had to connect the 2 preamps directly to my audio interface instead and not be able to integrate it in my patchbay setup because of this . Good to know I can record mics through the preamps plugged into the patchbay as long as I don't use phantom power. Thank you so much for your patience with my (probably stupid) questions and for your kind advice. It is much appreciated.


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## A3D2 (Dec 12, 2018)

Hi everyone! I finally got everything connected and labeled on my patchbay. And everything is working and the sound is fine (no noise or anything). The only thing I noticed is that everything sounds significantly lower in volume than when my gear was plugged directly into my motu audio interface. Maybe this is because of all the long cables? I cranked up the gain in the computer and that makes it sound loud enough and it doesn't seem to deteriorate the sound quality, so maybe I'll just have to live with it I guess . Do you guys have similar experiences with patchbays?


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## A3D2 (Dec 13, 2018)

Should anyone else have the same problem: I figured it out by myself. The instruments that were sounding quiet have unbalanced jacks that somehow (maybe bad build quality) don't connect well to the back of the patchbay: these particular brand of cables leave a tiny gap between the back of the patchbay and the jack itself (therefore a bad connection and low volume). I will replace all these cables and the problem will be solved


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## Henu (Dec 13, 2018)

Yep, get balanced cables. I also learned it the hard way myself. :D


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 13, 2018)

it’s been a while since I looked at this and it may depend on your patchbay but some of them use TT patch cables, which are not exactly the same size as 1/4 inch. 

What brand and model patchbay? I’m running out the door now but have a look into that before you change your cables


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## A3D2 (Dec 17, 2018)

@Dewdman42 my problem is already solved . But thanks anyway for offering to help, really cool


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