# Strings playing - scordatura!!!



## Leandro Gardini (Apr 30, 2010)

I´ve opened a thread in the think Space forum but I got no reply after more than one week. Maybe some strings players around here can help!!!
I´d like to find more information about scordatura. Actually I´ve seen in orchestration books that you need to give enough time for the player to retune the string(s) but actually how it happens?
Don´t they need to play the open strings to retune it? How can they apply scordatura (in silence) in the middle of a piece?
How much time do a composer need to give them to apply it?


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## JJP (Apr 30, 2010)

leogardini @ Fri Apr 30 said:


> I´d like to find more information about scordatura. Actually I´ve seen in orchestration books that you need to give enough time for the player to retune the string(s) but actually how it happens?
> Don´t they need to play the open strings to retune it? How can they apply scordatura (in silence) in the middle of a piece?
> How much time do a composer need to give them to apply it?



This is dangerous territory. Scordatura often becomes the realm of hack orchestrators. They often see it as a way of extending the range of a string instrument to get an extra few notes (often at the bottom end) when there is usually a much more elegant solution that doesn't require re-tuning. In other cases it's simply a gimmick that doesn't add much to the performance. If you can avoid using scordatura, I generally advise people to do so. It's a crude solution to most orchestration problems, and is fraught with difficulties. This is why you don't find much about the technique in orchestration books. 

If you plan to use scordatura for a unique stopped chord or a particular color, your best bet is to retune before a cue and leave the instrument retuned for the entire cue. If tuning is required in the middle of a cue (or movement of a classical work), I'd personally reserve it just for a soloist. I wouldn't want the whole section re-tuning because of the potential intonation issues, and the possible noise in a live situation. 

In a studio, you could always punch a scordatura section, but the result should be worth the time expenditure to stop and re-tune and the added difficulty of playing the re-tuned instrument. This may be fine for a soloist, but could create problems with a whole section. Tread carefully.


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 30, 2010)

Thanks stonzthro, but I think you don´t get my meaning!!!
Actually scordatura is an advanced technique not very common in orchestral works. The main purpose of it is 1. changing the colour effect of an instrument 2. to get lower notes than the normal range or 3. to make impossible double, triple and quadruple stops playable!!!
I´ve seen some exemples of scordatura in Resphigi and Stravinsky scores when they ask the player to apply it during the piece (if I´m not mistaken). So, the question is. Is there a way they can change tune accuratelly and in silence??? If so, how´s that work??? How much time do they need to apply scordatura???


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 30, 2010)

Thank you JJP, you´ve raised some very good points. You replyed whille I was writing my last post!!!


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## stonzthro (Apr 30, 2010)

Actually I AM a string player and I do know what scordatura means. The only way to achieve what you are asking during the piece is to:

1. Have them tune down before (as I already mentioned) and just play the piece using alternate fingerings (what I and most players I know normally do).
2. Try to find a place for them to tune down with a reference pitch given during the piece from another instrument - good luck.
3. Bring an alternate instrument and switch to that during the piece - possibly with smaller groups but more difficult in large ensembles.


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 30, 2010)

Thank you stonzthro. I´ve got some very helpful replies here!!!
So, just to make sure. String players can´t retune in silence right??? If there isn´t any way to leave the sections retuned before a piece the composer or orchestrator need to find an "musical way" to make them retune in the middle of the piece???


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## stonzthro (Apr 30, 2010)

No!!!
Good luck!!!


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 30, 2010)

Sweeet, thanks!!!


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## Marius Masalar (Apr 30, 2010)

Loud noises!!!!


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## Hannes_F (Apr 30, 2010)

leogardini @ Fri Apr 30 said:


> Actually scordatura is an advanced technique not very common in orchestral works. The main purpose of it is 1. changing the colour effect of an instrument 2. to get lower notes than the normal range or 3. to make impossible double, triple and quadruple stops playable!!!
> I´ve seen some exemples of scordatura in Resphigi and Stravinsky scores when they ask the player to apply it during the piece (if I´m not mistaken). So, the question is. Is there a way they can change tune accuratelly and in silence??? If so, how´s that work??? How much time do they need to apply scordatura???



I think I remember something by Stravinsky or Mahler where a violin solo is played by a violin one big second higher or so. Since there is no reliable way to tune an acoustic string instrument in silence this is solved by bringing a second violin that is tuned before the movement begins. The player (usually the concert master) swaps the violins for the solo and then changes back again.

I know that Paganini used scordatura but if possible you should tune the E (and A) string lower, not higher. If the whole violin is tuned higher I personally would fear damage on my violin because the additional pressure on the bridge might be provoke a crack in the violin backside which is a death sentence for the instrument. 

Another problem could be release of the strings afterwards, after such manipulations the sound post might tilt over. At least I would expect that the strings are not really useable any more after this adventure. So if not absolutely necessary I would avoid this as a player, and if being forced to it I would use my cheapest violin.

Here you find some scordatura examples that obviously worked:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skordatur


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 30, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Fri Apr 30 said:


> leogardini @ Fri Apr 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually scordatura is an advanced technique not very common in orchestral works. The main purpose of it is 1. changing the colour effect of an instrument 2. to get lower notes than the normal range or 3. to make impossible double, triple and quadruple stops playable!!!
> ...


There isn´t any other better source to learn orchestration than real players. This thread gave me much more information than any orchestration book!!!
Here is a nice video I´ve found some days ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysx0zG-T ... 1&index=31
I was impressed how they applied scordatura for the G string. A fourth above!!!
I was thinking exactly what you´ve just mention. Too much scordatura may damage the instrument!!!


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## JJP (Apr 30, 2010)

Hannes_F @ Fri Apr 30 said:


> I think I remember something by Stravinsky or Mahler where a violin solo is played by a violin one big second higher or so.



Is it Mahler's 4th? I think that's the one where all the violin strings are tuned up a step to simulate the tone of a cheap fiddle. Note that scordatura is used to make the instrument sound poorly.

Don't one of the string instruments in Rite of Spring retune for the last bar? o/~


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## Udo (May 1, 2010)

These days, THE source for such issues is wikipedia :wink: .

For notable examples of scordatura see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordatura

EDIT: This link is different from the one Hannes provided. It's in English and it provides many examples.


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## DouglasGibsonComposer (May 13, 2010)

Just came across this topic. I tried this once. I will share with you the results. One of the hardest thing to deal with scordatura is how to notate the music properly. 
I always notate the music "as played" on the parts, treating each string as it's own transposing instrument. This means the players don't have to think about transposing and only focus on where to put their fingers. It gets real tricky real quick when each string is tuned to a different interval as shown in the youtube link. I did that in this piece and so I had to specify which string the note or passage was to be played on. Unlike the piano you can play the same note on multiple strings. I keep the conductor score at pitch. 

With the tuning I have found players are most comfortable tuning down as that does not cause stress to the instrument. No player wants to damage their expensive instrument. I would advise allowing 45 minutes for the tuning to set. Only the guitar is able to simply tune and go in my experience. 

I agree that there does need to be a compelling justification for the change in tuning. 
In my case the resonance of the open strings was integral to creating the sound world I wanted to convey. Also the section at 5:30 there was no other way I could figure out to orchestrate and get the virtuosic playing. Lastly, the players said that once they got used to it that it fit really well under their hands and was fun to play. 

So, I believe there is gold in there hills, just be really mindful of the context you are in. It will be easier to get a chamber group to do this than an orchestral. When dealing with large forces there are more ways to work around these issues. I have heard of Orchestra flat out refusing to even tune a C string down to B. Just know the players you are writing for. Some are excited by the idea. 

By the way it is the Firebird that has one bar of detuning the E string down to D. No one really does this, as they just use the D string. 

You can hear the results of my work here

http://www.box.net/shared/2e7eg989oh

It is a long piece (about 8 min) so you may want to skip through to different sections. Each of the strings (violins, violas, cellos, bass) are retuned. 

I will leave it to you to judge if it was justified in the results. Thank you for listening and if I can answer any questions about notation/performance issues I would be happy to help

Best wishes
Doug


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