# Caverns of Isengard WIP



## FireGS (Oct 9, 2008)

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/isengardmixtest1.mp3

Just starting out - Any comments?

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/isengardmixtest6.mp3 - 10/12/08
Newest


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## Cinesamples (Oct 9, 2008)

I would be curious for you to do this with our Drums of War, since they are basically the exact drums used in this trilogy.


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## artsoundz (Oct 9, 2008)

you've got a solid idea going here. However, the strings need to come up and the brass down- Although where the brass is sounds not bad- maybe work your way up to that volume.
One can barely hear the strings and it sounds empty but I can hear the 8th note pattern is more imortant to this cue than you are giving it with the lack of volume. increasing them by a fewDB wil help this. Also, I would eventually add some variation to the big drum rythm pattern to create a bit more interest.

But again. seems to be a great theme to work with.


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## FireGS (Oct 9, 2008)

CineSamples @ Thu Oct 09 said:


> I would be curious for you to do this with our Drums of War, since they are basically the exact drums used in this trilogy.



Interesting you should mention that - they're in there. One sound I couldn't actually find was the hit on the 1st, 4th and 5th beats in the OST that sounds like the big blue blocks hitting the ground from Mario 64.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwjxGJn3 ... re=related

Go to about 0:30 in. It sounds sort of like that. I believe its a prepared piano w/ chains being hit with metal mallets. I don't have anything like that. =(

EDIT: Maybe bit metal sheets being hit with Metal mallets.


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## FireGS (Oct 9, 2008)

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/isengardmixtest2.mp3

Made some changes. Better?


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## artsoundz (Oct 9, 2008)

much better. And so quickly.

What do you think? Do you think it sounds better?


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## FireGS (Oct 9, 2008)

I think it sounds better. It has more aggressive-ness, but I think its less true to the OST. It's a tossup. I dont even think there ARE strings in the OST. Cinesamples, can you comment on that?


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## mikebarry (Oct 9, 2008)

From My understanding it was a drum ensemble (including Timp) and a metal plate on the drum ostianato; i will find out for sure and let you know


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## FireGS (Oct 9, 2008)

Hehe, like my own personal Howard Shore reference!  Thanks guys, LOTR got me into classical/orchestral/cinematic music.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 9, 2008)

FireGS @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwjxGJn3 ... re=related
> 
> Go to about 0:30 in. It sounds sort of like that.



*Super Mario 64 - 8 - Red Coins on the Floating Isle* :?: >8o 

It sounds ok, but nowhere near the real thing. For starters, you need alot more verb. What lib are you using? If i were doing this (I have EW Plat) I would turn off the close mics completely; the LOTR sessions were not close-mic'd at all. Those hits are way too loud and up front, and the brass (except for one note towards the end) is way too low.

Nice work - keep it up!


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## FireGS (Oct 9, 2008)

Drums of War, True Strike, SD2, VSL, EWQL, WIVI, and Altiverb.

By low, do you mean volume? I hope! I added more, and made some more mix changes. including reverb. Others told me it was too pristine-sounding.

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/isengardmixtest3.mp3


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## RiffWraith (Oct 9, 2008)

Well, of course you are neveer going to get it to sound like the soundtrack, but your mix is to dry and too "present". 

First thing is, you are missing some cymbal/hi-hat thing. Not sure what it is, but it is VERY "there" in the LOTR vers. It maybe one of those steel plates, perhaps. There is also a "pad" of sorts - barely there, but it's there. Probably violins, or violas - maybe both, playing A. This helps fill out the sound alot.

Then, listen to the hits in your ex, vs. the LOTR ex. Your instrumentation may be correct, but hear how the LOTR vers is further away from us? It's almost as if the musicians were near the opposite end of a long corridor from us, whereas your vers makes it sounds like they are in the same, small room as us. 

Then there is the brass. LOTR vers - Horns left, and B.Trombone and Tuba in unison mostly right. See how they jump out at you? See how (see...LOL) the first notes and the last notes, that are almost missing from your vers are very distinct in the LOTR vers? 

*1*

*2*

Use your ears...listen...concentrate.

Hope this helps.


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## artsoundz (Oct 9, 2008)

okay- I'm getting it now. This is a mock up of something in LOTR? I'm pretty much out of the loop with that end of things so my comments have to do more with what would help that cue as a piece of music.


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## FireGS (Oct 9, 2008)

Made some more fixes, thanks to you all. I am too tired to do anything else tonight.

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/isengardmixtest4.mp3


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## FireGS (Oct 10, 2008)

artsoundz @ Thu Oct 09 said:


> okay- I'm getting it now. This is a mock up of something in LOTR? I'm pretty much out of the loop with that end of things so my comments have to do more with what would help that cue as a piece of music.



Yepper!


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## musicpete (Oct 10, 2008)

I think you are getting pretty close. Now if I remember the score and the concerts in London correctly, there were two performers augmenting the ostinato with metal sounds: One was playing the anvil and the other performer wore a chain glove and was slamming her hand onto the closed lid of a piano.

Personally I think the balance between Brass and Percussion is very good now. I also like the dry space a lot! For me the 2nd and 3rd score were an awful disappointment in the sound engineering department. Too much mud, no clarity at all. This is much better!

Also: If you could find a way to make the strings a little less hidden without them dominating the Brass in an unrealistic way, this would be perfect. Right now they're drowned and barely discernible.

On another note: When talking to Mr. Shore after the concert he promised that the extended score releases would be remixed and contain less ambience. Unfortunately that did not happen. :(


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## hbuus (Oct 10, 2008)

The brass sounds great in the first versions of your work - powerful and majestic, exactly as it should be in this piece.
But in this latest version, where you adjusted the brass-reverb or whatever, the section sounds even greater than before.
Nice! 

But what is that with the reverb on the metallic drums - isn't it kinda long? Like, extremely long!
It sounds strange. To me it reveals that this is a sample based piece.
Perhaps adjust the reverb time on those metallic drums?
I.e. in those passages where a lot of brass is going on, reverb time on metallic drums can be increased a little.
Then in the more (relatively!) quiet passages of the piece, you can decrease reverb time on metallic drums again.
Or try and simply decrease the metallic drums' reverb time overall.
That's what I'm thinking anyway.

Still, this piece is damn impressive overall.
Nice work! 

Best regards,
Henrik


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## RiffWraith (Oct 10, 2008)

Much better, but still too "close sounding".

*3*

Of course, adding reverb will never be a proper substitute for further mic placement, but it sounds better than the mics being too close. Now, notice how the brass is not as "out front" anymore. Except of course, the last phrase, which was too loud anyway. More adjustments are needed - maybe a bit more volume in the brass, and a bit more high-end in the brass as well.

Cheers.


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## Mahlon (Oct 10, 2008)

Sounding loads better!! How much WIVI is in there?

Mahlon


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## RiffWraith (Oct 10, 2008)

Sounds better, but not even close to the space. My last example was much closer.



Mahlon @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> Sounding loads better!! How much WIVI is in there?
> 
> Mahlon



What is WIVI?


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## dannthr (Oct 10, 2008)

Wallander Instruments Virtual Instruments - a virtual instrument modeling software.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 10, 2008)

Ahh, ty.


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## FireGS (Oct 10, 2008)

RiffWraith @ Fri Oct 10 said:


> Sounds better, but not even close to the space. My last example was much closer.



Youre right, but I thought yours sounded like it just had a ton of verb added on top. =( Considering that I Can't change how VSL and SD2/Cinetoms were recorded, and adding verb to it isnt really helping, cause I tried, and it just made it mushy, I dont know how to make it any better, as far as that goes.

And the Tuba and the horns during the soft part are WIVI.


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## mikebarry (Oct 10, 2008)

I might give this a try also using the drums of war soloed.


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## FireGS (Oct 10, 2008)

Mike, please do! I'd love to hear an "official" attempt!


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## Shantar (Oct 11, 2008)

Sound good I think. Keep ´em coming!


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## RiffWraith (Oct 11, 2008)

Just watched the LOTR Symphony DVD. According to HS, it is:

Steel plates (played with a wooden mallet)
Japanese Taiko drums (of which you don't see much, but when you do, the percussionist [Taikoist? lol] is playing the two largest drums simul)
Metal chains on strings inside a piano 

Cheers.


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## FireGS (Oct 11, 2008)

AH! Taikos! I may have to play with Tsaiko a bit to get the right bite in the drums that I'm looking for.

Thanks!


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## germancomponist (Oct 11, 2008)

FireGS @ Sun Oct 12 said:


> AH! Taikos! I may have to play with Tsaiko a bit to get the right bite in the drums that I'm looking for.
> 
> Thanks!



Sounds great!

Taikos....? I am recording them these days and I have to say: I love their sound!  

Gunther


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## FireGS (Oct 12, 2008)

http://www.aixsyd.com/music/isengardmixtest6.mp3

Newest. Added some mid-rangey sounding Taikos in there.


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