# Two weeks with StaffPad



## Ethos

So I've spent 2 weeks with StaffPad on my Surface Pro 4. I'm using it for a major commission (double quartet - string quartet & marimba quartet) so the stakes are pretty high. When I'm composing a piece for the concert hall, I still work in Cubase first. Years of film composing has got me in the habit of mocking-up first.

I am definitely moving from mock-up to notation at record speeds. I have always been faster writing music by hand rather than screwing around with Sibelius. After a couple hours of learning the idiosyncrasies of StaffPad's detection system. But it took a couple days before I realized the real magic-- So, occasionally it won't properly recognize my handwriting -- it could be because of my articulations, sloppy slur markings, note heads that straddle a line and space -- to my eyes it looks fine, but to the software it's too vague to convert to engraved music. Your first response will be to labor over that one bar, erasing and rewriting notes and markings, until it is recognized. After some time I learned that I can just blow through the score and completely ignore if measures have been recognized or not. After I'm done I can go back and address the "orange" measures.... or NOT! StaffPad will print whatever is on the staffs, whether that's engraved, auto-recognized music OR handwritten unrecognized music.

I have to say, I'm 100% sold on StaffPad as a solution and long overdue answer to Finale and Sibelius, which now seem like old dinosaurs in comparison.

There are some features that are lacking and some bugs that need to be worked out. I'm happy to answer any questions you have any this!


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## Casey Edwards

I'm incredibly curious as to how, or if, this program would work on a touchscreen monitor like the Acer T23HL. I'm not really interested in buying a surface pro, but I'm super keen on getting a digital writing system into my workflow.


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## Rodney Money

Ethos said:


> I have to say, I'm 100% sold on StaffPad as a solution and long overdue answer to Finale and Sibelius, which now seem like old dinosaurs in comparison.


Easy now brother, I know you are excited by the new way of inputting information, but the most important thing is the outcome, polished professional score. Plus, I've used Hyperscribe in Finale since 1999, and in my personal experience nothing can beat simply playing it in, and you can set the hyperscribe settings for any skill level. Anywho, StaffPad still looks cool, but more like a sketching tool, or for fun, and to me not quite up for serious "work" on its own. I saw on YouTube that the outcome is still limited, and you would need to send it to a more serious program. So, it sounds limiting in that regards, and I cannot be limited.


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## Ethos

I'm using it for serious work as we speak. As I said it's a major, high-stakes commission, so to speak. I do 4 or 5 of these concert commissions a year on top of my film work. Compared to both Sibelius and Finale, I'm moving easily twice as fast. The engraved output is fantastic, but you can import your score into Finale or Sibelius for final printing if you wish. 

Granted, it is so fast for me because I'm quickest writing by hand. If you're quickest playing piano, then your current method is best for you. 

But I patently disagree that this is merely a sketching tool.


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## Ethos

Casey Edwards said:


> I'm incredibly curious as to how, or if, this program would work on a touchscreen monitor like the Acer T23HL. I'm not really interested in buying a surface pro, but I'm super keen on getting a digital writing system into my workflow.



As long as your monitor has an active digitizer it'll work. But if it's a capacitive or resistive touchscreen it won't.


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## muk

Ethos, how good is the handwriting recognition? Is there something off in every bar, or does it a good job basically with only the occasional problem? Do you have to adapt your handwriting to accomodate the recognition? Are there many symbols etc. that you can't actually write, but have to choose/drag and drop from a menu bar?

I work fastest with paper and pencil too, but it's always a bit tedious to input the music into Sibelius afterwards for a clean score. I've tested NotateMe, but the recognition wasn't good enough and it was a real workflow killer for me. I hate it if you have to go back to every bar you have written and correct notes and add basic stuff like dynamic markings that the program can't recognize. I like the idea behind the program, but it had to be way ahead of NotateMe to be of any real use to me.


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## Ethos

It took me half a day to learn some of the idiosyncrasies of the recognition. Now I can blow through a score very quickly and the recognition is extremely good. Good enough that it allows me to work completely unencumbered by the technology. Sometimes ledger lines give it troubles. But if they're not recognized I just ignore it and keep plowing through. I'll either go back and fix it later or just leave it as-is. It'll print whatever is in a bar- handwriting, or engraved music. 

It definitely helps to do things in passe multiple passes, for example I'll go through and get all the notes down. Then when I'm sitting on the couch watching a movie or something I'll work on expression marks, dynamics, articulations, and stuff like that. If you fill a measure in with notes, slurs, articulations, dynamics, and expression marks there e more opportunities for things to not be recognized.


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## Casey Edwards

Ethos said:


> As long as your monitor has an active digitizer it'll work. But if it's a capacitive or resistive touchscreen it won't.



Thanks for the info! I did some research and I learned the difference between the various screen types. Now, only one question remains: Are there any Active Digitizer *AND* Multi-Touch monitors out there besides the Wacom Cintiq HD Touch monitors?! It's incredibly important that if I invest in this that I be able to use both my fingers (Lemur) and a pen (StaffPad) I can't seem to find them if there are and I don't have any expertise in this field.


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## Ethos

I'm not familiar with the Wacom monitors. The Surface has, what Microsoft calls, "Pixel Sense". The screen knows the difference between your pen and your finger. StaffPad uses both differently though. For example, swiping your finger across the screen will scroll, while swiping your pen across the screen will draw a line. Within Windows and other applications (Like Adobe Audition, Cubase, etc...) I can use the pen OR my finger to interact with the UI.


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## Casey Edwards

@Ethos: I'm familiar with the Surface line. My problem is I don't need another computer/laptop and the screens are smaller than I want. I'm looking for a monitor only solution so I can use my main rig and the monitor as an extension when needed. Thanks for the info though.


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## Ethos

No problem. Post back here with your findings. If the Wacom screens are a solution I'd be very interested to know!


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## JonFairhurst

My wife got a Surface Pro 4. So far, not so good. It locks up after sleeping, which is apparently a known hardware fault which had led to a prior recall. (We joke that it's the Black Screen of Death.) She'll trade it for a hopefully working model Thursday. I'll let you know how it goes. But the experience has been super flaky so far - a ton of Windows Updates followed by things not working at all as expected. Of course, if there's a hardware fault, it surprising it works at all. The pain is that she already installed stuff, entered passwords, data, etc.

Hopefully, this will all be solved soon. I'll post the results so that people get the full story.

BTW, when comparing the Surface Pro 4 to the iPad Pro, the Surface feels like a small, stocky weightlifter while the iPad feels like a thin sprinter. The Surface is just a bit chunkier (we got the keyboard for it), runs full Windows (for better/worse), and feels more like laptop than tablet. The iPad is a bit more elegant, runs iOS, and is more of a tablet. With the Surface, you've got longer booting, updates and viruses to worry about, while iOS feels lightweight and NOW. The big advantage of the Surface is the true file system and the ability to run desktop apps and connect more peripherals. This makes it the better work computer. The iPad is more life-friendly - until you want to get data from here to there. Maybe one app supports Dropbox, but not photos, the next one gets photos, but doesn't do Dropbox, and a third uses its own cloud solution. You can connect a camera (which is battery powered) with an adapter cable, but not a USB stick (which overtaxes the power supply), unless it's connected to a powered hub. I really like the Apple Pencil and haven't yet had a chance to experiment with the Surface Pen. I'll say this: while the Pencil hardware is amazing, the results really depend on the apps. Unless I use the same app on both devices, it would be hard to compare the two styluses.

Hopefully, my wife's new Surface will work as expected. Just based on getting a working product, it's Apple 1, Microsoft 0.


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## Noam Guterman

Very happy Surface Pro 4 user here. Just amazing!


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## Ethos

@JonFairhurst That's a shame! Sounds like you're having the exact opposite experience I'm having with my Surface Pro 4. :( 

Mine has become my "daily driver". I have tried iPads and Android tablets in the past and have always felt like they were mostly toys. I finally have a super lightweight but powerful machine I can carry around with me. I use it for doing my college lectures, sitting on the couch and doing emails, plus the biggie - StaffPad. I love this little thing! I haven't used my 15" Dell m3800 in weeks.


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## Casey Edwards

Ethos said:


> No problem. Post back here with your findings. If the Wacom screens are a solution I'd be very interested to know!



There's not much doubt in my mind that the Wacom Cintiq HD Touch line would work. It's the price that makes me go O_O!!! For that price I could buy separate monitors and still come out the other end with more money. I'll keep my eyes peeled for anything that may or may not be released. If microsoft would release a monitor only solution that has the "pixel sense" technology you speak of, that would be great!


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## JonFairhurst

Glad to hear that others have had great results with the SP4! My wife and I have used Windows since 3.1, so we're not MS bashers.  But she is worried that she might trade it in for another lemon. Hopefully not!

@Ethos - I understand your "toy" feeling. I find that they keys are to download good apps, get the Pencil(!), and to get a good cloud file solution, such as Dropbox. Going to meetings, I prefer to bring the iPad and use Evernote and various web apps. But for serious document editing in Corp-land, yes, I need a "real" computer. In April, when the budget gets reset, I hope to get an SP4 as my new laptop. Anyway, apps make all the difference and it takes time to find the right ones and get them into one's workflow. Once you do, it's all very responsive, natural and lightweight. I certainly didn't adapt overnight.

@Casey - I expect Cintiq (the illustrator's tool of choice) sales to really suffer. With an iPad Pro + Pencil, one can use the AstroPad app to use is like an extended monitor/tablet. Of course, the SP4 can run PhotoShop/Illustrator/Sibelius/Staffpad/Whatever by itself. In either case, you can be light on your feet, compared to the thicker, heavier, cord-tied, Cintiq. 

FWIW, I've been using a large Wacom tablet for well over a decade, but not with integrated monitor. It's hard to draw with the thing when you move your hand on a pad and look elsewhere to see the results. Just try to draw an accurate vertical or horizontal line! But with the stylus right on the display, you get that natural feedback that makes it feel natural.


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## JonFairhurst

Update: My wife got the replacement Surface Pro 4 and so far so good.

Apparently, there was a recall on earlier models for the "won't wake up from sleep, black screen of death issue." Though we picked up her SP4 on 13-Feb that had just arrived at Best Buy, it was an earlier serial number. (I'm not sure if it was within the recall date.) Her new one is from a newer lot. Hopefully, the BlkSOD issue is completely in the past.

Hopefully, it won't be long before she'll let me try it out. For now, she's pretty much attached to it. 

So... is there a demo version of Staffpad? I really like the idea of drawing in the notes and having handwriting analysis replace the ones that it can read and leave behind those it can't. Not worrying about fighting the recognition makes a lot of sense to me.

There is another option for just notating by hand. I use forScore for reading sheet music while performing. It allows annotation. By importing blank staffs, one could use annotation to draw in notation. Of course, you don't get handwriting analysis or playback review. One issue with the Apple Pencil is that forScore doesn't seem to have palm rejection. Hopefully, that will come in an update soon. (I've emailed the company about it.)

I've just checked and I see that forScore is iOS only. I assume that there is similar sheet music reader software with annotation for Windows that one could use with the SP4 for such a "scribble only" music writing approach. But that's probably not needed if you have StaffPad.


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## ed buller

Staffpad is a no-brainer if you already have the tablet IMHO. I bought the tablet just for the software !



e


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## Ethos

I don't believe there is a demo of any sort. But I must say, I would be extremely surprised if you are unsatisfied with it. Sibelius works very well on the tablet with the pen, but it's not the same experience -- you're not actually drawing notes.


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## JonFairhurst

In my case, I own the iPad Pro and my wife got the Surface Pro 4. I'd be interested in trying out StaffPad, but don't plan to buy it to sit idly on my wife's computer.  In April, it's possible that I'll get an SP4 for work. If so, I might buy it for that PC.

I've tried NotateMe Now with the iPad and Pencil, and it's not as responsive as I'd like. My first attempts at getting recognition working were poor, though I just tried it again and did better. Still, it's not like the various sketching and painting apps where you just draw. I feel like I'm writing for the app, rather than for myself. I had better luck with Notion on the iPad, but I used a tap-the-icon approach, rather than handwriting.

For now, StaffPad seems to be king.


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## ed buller

it is fiddly. You almost have to get the app to recognise you. Ties where particularly hard. But after a week it's pretty foolproof. And if you plan ahead you can import it into your DAW with all the articulations switching your samples.!

e


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## Ethos

I've also used Notate Me on both iOS and Android. It pales in comparison to Staff Pad. NotateMe was a cool proof of concept. It took lots of effort to get relatively little output. StaffPad on the other hand (for me, at least, after several weeks of using it) is just as quick as writing on paper with much better results. Very little effort yields phenomenal results.


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## Ethos

ed buller said:


> Ties where particularly hard.
> 
> e


Yeah! Ties were really pissing me off for a while! That, and ledger lines. It took the longest to get those right. Sometimes I would write those notes on the staff and then drag them up or down the ledger lines.


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## stevetwist

For those curious, I can confirm that Wacom Cintiq products that also have touch work wonderfully with StaffPad. I own a Cintiq 13HD Touch. It works with StaffPad the same way as surface pro would. I went with a Cintiq rather than a SurfacePro because the limiting factor with an all in one product like the surface, in my opinion, is that the hardware will eventually age - new software will come out, and it will have too slow a CPU, or too little memory. With a Cintiq, I just plug it into a new PC and I'm up and running. I can upgrade my computer hardware without reinvesting in a new monitor/stylus combo.

So far, I love the Cintiq. I use it on my laptop with StaffPad and I use it on my workstation with Cubase for drawing CC curves, and editing MIDI data in the piano roll. Switching between these is as easy as changing HDMI and USB cables.

Hope that helps.
Steve


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## cmillar

I, too, am extremely excited about moving to StaffPad soon.

I've been 'getting my feet wet' with the hand-recognition software available for the iPad.

FWIW, I bought the 'NotateMe' app (their best one) and the 'Notion for iOS' by Notion.

The winner....'Notion for iOS'. But, get a good pen that uses active sensing. I bought one made by the 'Joy' company.

In fact, 'Notion for iOS' is so good, that I will really try some serious composing in it, and then transfer an XML file over to Sibelius to finish things off (like articulations, layout, etc.) You can't beat the plug-ins for Sibelius that make life a lot easier and faster.

I'll really try Notion and the iPad while saving up for a good SurfacePro3 or 4.


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## WorshipMaestro

JonFairhurst said:


> My wife got a Surface Pro 4. So far, not so good. It locks up after sleeping, which is apparently a known hardware fault which had led to a prior recall. (We joke that it's the Black Screen of Death.) She'll trade it for a hopefully working model Thursday. I'll let you know how it goes. But the experience has been super flaky so far - a ton of Windows Updates followed by things not working at all as expected. Of course, if there's a hardware fault, it surprising it works at all. The pain is that she already installed stuff, entered passwords, data, etc.
> 
> Hopefully, my wife's new Surface will work as expected. Just based on getting a working product, it's Apple 1, Microsoft 0.



My SP4 arrived with a defective battery and is being sent back for a replacement. For the short time I had it I purchased and installed StaffPad on it. For me it was a game changer! After working through the tutorials I found it faster than pen and paper and certainly suitable for professional use. Can't wait to get the replacement and start using it in my work. Was very impressed with the Surface also (aside from a battery that wouldn't charge).


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## mac4d

As someone who knows virtually nothing about PCs, what would be a reasonably good PC with Windows 10 to get for Staffpad and a Cintiq 13HD (which I already have). I don't think I want to put bootcamp/parallel on either of my macs.


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## Mahlon

Ethos,
What are the specs of your Surface? The i5 8GB version? I'm wondering how much RAM Staffpad's sounds take up, if it's processor intensive or not, etc. etc. Thanks.

Mahlon


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## Guy Bacos

This looks pretty awesome, just found out about it. Does anybody finds some cons about this?


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## Ethos

Mahlon said:


> Ethos,
> What are the specs of your Surface? The i5 8GB version? I'm wondering how much RAM Staffpad's sounds take up, if it's processor intensive or not, etc. etc. Thanks.
> 
> Mahlon


 
Yes, I have the i5/8gb. From what I can tell it's not processor or RAM intensive at all. There's no lag or anything. Runs very smoothly.


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## Noam Guterman

I have the low tier SP4, and it runs smoothly


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## OT_Tobias

Surface Pro 4 M3 here and it runs great.
So, by the way, does everything else I have tried on it. It might just say M3 and have 4GB Ram but unless you edit video on it or do games, everything should run well.


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## Farkle

I have the i7 Surface Pro 3, 8 GB of RAM. Staffpad works very smoothly for me, no hiccups, etc.

Incidentally, I've constructed my SP3 to be a quite nice portable writing setup. For grabbing ideas, I use Camera and Voice Recorder, and push it up to OneDrive. Notes on a project? I use OneNote, which syncs up to Onedrive.

Staffpad syncs to Onedrive, and I have installed Reaper with Mike Verta's Kontakt Template, Sibelius, and Noteperformer. It's quite nice for sketches and quick and ugly mockups.

Mike


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## Mahlon

Thanks, all for the info on the Surface.

Mahlon


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## Ethos

Farkle said:


> and I have installed Reaper with *Mike Verta's Kontakt Template*



What is that?


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## Farkle

Ethos said:


> What is that?



It's on Mike Verta's super thread, it's related to the "transcription" masterclass. He has links to a kontakt template of the Kontakt 5 orchestral libraries, balanced and ready to drop in to a DAW. Do a search on this site for Mike Verta's Mega-thread, it's in there somewhere. Links to the template, etc.


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## chrysshawk

This thread has truly awakened my inner gearslut..!

Do you think the minimum SP4 model would be able to run this without any performance issues?


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## OT_Tobias

Yes, it is! As written above it runs great on my M3 Surface Pro 4.


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## Noam Guterman

OT_Tobias said:


> Yes, it is! As written above it runs great on my M3 Surface Pro 4.


Same model here, flawless


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## Ethos

I have the i5 version. It is a pretty lightweight program from a CPU and RAM perspective.


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## dcoscina

I just bought a Surface 3 and Staffpad coming from Notion for both iOS and desktop Mac versions. I've also used Sibelius 7 and Finale 2012. I like Staffpad but I'm having issues with palm rejection on the Surface and found out that Windows 10 doesn't handle it as well as Windows 8. I have 12 days if I want to return the Surface.


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## Noam Guterman

dcoscina said:


> I just bought a Surface 3 and Staffpad coming from Notion for both iOS and desktop Mac versions. I've also used Sibelius 7 and Finale 2012. I like Staffpad but I'm having issues with palm rejection on the Surface and found out that Windows 10 doesn't handle it as well as Windows 8. I have 12 days if I want to return the Surface.


Hmm weird, did you contact Staffpad's David? Perhaps he could help you


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## Ethos

dcoscina said:


> I just bought a Surface 3 and Staffpad coming from Notion for both iOS and desktop Mac versions. I've also used Sibelius 7 and Finale 2012. I like Staffpad but I'm having issues with palm rejection on the Surface and found out that Windows 10 doesn't handle it as well as Windows 8. I have 12 days if I want to return the Surface.


Yeah that is a little wierd. I'm not aware of any settings for palm rejection, there might be some somewhere. But I find palm rejection on mine to be 90% perfect. I'd recommend calling Microsoft. Their support is pretty awesome. There's always an outside chance you got a bad unit that needs to be replaced.


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## dcoscina

I just returned the Surface 3. Just wasn't my thing. I have a Asus Vivo Tab note 8 with Staffpad on it and it will do and for less cash. I still get around Notion the fastest as I've been using it since its inception in 2005.


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## muk

Finally I had a chance to try StaffPad for a bit. It was on a Surface 3, and everything ran smoothly. I must say it is indeed a step forward compared to what I have tried so far (NotateMe). The recognition is quite good, I like how everything is laid out, most things work intuitively. That's the pros for me.

But it still is not in shape to really improve my workflow over paper and pencil. I guess it is more due to the pen accuracy (or, rather, lack thereof) than StaffPad's recognition itself, but working with it was simply no joy. Everything from eight notes down was a coin flip whether it was recognized. Simply because the pen didn't allow me to notate these at least somewhat precisely. My handwriting with the pen looks like an inebriated six year old's. You probably can train to get better, but I feel that the pen is so inaccurate that it is simply no fun.

So, for me, it is still paper and pencil, with the somewhat boring task of inputting it into Sibelius after the writing process. For me that is still faster than StaffPad. After struggling with the pen and trying to recognize myself what I apparently just had written it was a real joy to revert back to paper and pencil.


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## toomanynotes

dcoscina said:


> I just returned the Surface 3. Just wasn't my thing. I have a Asus Vivo Tab note 8 with Staffpad on it and it will do and for less cash. I still get around Notion the fastest as I've been using it since its inception in 2005.


I would love to try a surface as i use Windows for desktop music, but im thinking of upgrading my ipad 4 to pro. Been using Notion since birth, love it, use my fingers to input via icons.

But a quick couple of questions, many of you are pen to paper, i assume that means you can write what you hear without an instrument? I can only do that if I hear the note as im inputting...i dont have perfect pitch and need a instrument in my hands for more complex harmonies/chords.
On that note, i would highly benefit if Notion implemented a fuction that would scroll through the notes chromatically rather than diatonically, if thats the right way of saying it? Can the Staffpad do this?

Years ago i used cakewalk 3.0 and chromatic pitch scroll was acheiveable via mouse...for example i click on note and find the pitch i want by dragging mouse up or down to say..D# on Notion i have to click on the accidental #/b button after choosing 'D' This really sucks up my time.

Thanks.


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## ed buller

muk said:


> Finally I had a chance to try StaffPad for a bit. It was on a Surface 3, and everything ran smoothly. I must say it is indeed a step forward compared to what I have tried so far (NotateMe). The recognition is quite good, I like how everything is laid out, most things work intuitively. That's the pros for me.
> 
> But it still is not in shape to really improve my workflow over paper and pencil. I guess it is more due to the pen accuracy (or, rather, lack thereof) than StaffPad's recognition itself, but working with it was simply no joy. Everything from eight notes down was a coin flip whether it was recognized. Simply because the pen didn't allow me to notate these at least somewhat precisely. My handwriting with the pen looks like an inebriated six year old's. You probably can train to get better, but I feel that the pen is so inaccurate that it is simply no fun.
> 
> So, for me, it is still paper and pencil, with the somewhat boring task of inputting it into Sibelius after the writing process. For me that is still faster than StaffPad. After struggling with the pen and trying to recognize myself what I apparently just had written it was a real joy to revert back to paper and pencil.


 

It is a step learning curve. Have you tried the upgrade? It is a lot better.

e


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## muk

You mean the Surface 4? I haven't tried that. If the pen/writing is improved it might be worth to try it in a store.


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## ed buller

no I mean the latest version of staffpad ?...

e


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## muk

Well it was v2.3. No idea if that is the most recent one. But as written, I was under the impression that my less than ideal experience had less to do with StaffPads recognition than with the accuracy of the pen itself.


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## gyprock

I've been using Staffpad on a Surface 3 and the pen recognition is excellent however there is one issue that is bugging me and I've contacted the developer about it. Currently you cannot convert a solid notehead (e.g. 1/4 note) to an open notehead (1/2 note) and vice versa. You basically have to erase and redraw the note. This is ok for melodies but once you start getting stacks of chords in pads and you decide you want to change the rhythm from 1/2 notes to something more syncopated, then you have to erase and redraw. This is particularly troublesome in big band charts where sectional harmony is the norm. Admittedly, if you were using paper, pencil and an eraser the job of changing a pad rhythm would be even more time consuming.

Notation software like Staffpad is divided into note input (via pen recognition) and editing (once the note has been recognized). Much of the editing in Staffpad can be done with the pen e.g. removing the tail off an 1/8 note to turn it into a 1/4 note or adding the number 3 above a bunch of notes to turn them into a triplet. This is clever stuff and works very well. This is why I'm frustrated by the limitation mentioned above.

I think Staffpad is great for sketching but to flesh out the composition or arrangement you really need to export XML into the likes of Sibelius or Notion (I have both). With the latest Sibelius 8.2 a feature I've been waiting for ages has finally been added i.e. the ability to move notes or chords, left or right without cutting and pasting. This makes changing chordal rhythms and intricate melody phrasing a breeze.

I'm also a big Notion fan but I'm finding I'm using it less because development is slow and some basic sectional voicing features are not there e.g. the ability to arrange, explode and reduce staves.


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## acicero

gyprock said:


> I've been using Staffpad on a Surface 3 and the pen recognition is excellent however there is one issue that is bugging me and I've contacted the developer about it. Currently you cannot convert a solid notehead (e.g. 1/4 note) to an open notehead (1/2 note) and vice versa. You basically have to erase and redraw the note. This is ok for melodies but once you start getting stacks of chords in pads and you decide you want to change the rhythm from 1/2 notes to something more syncopated, then you have to erase and redraw. This is particularly troublesome in big band charts where sectional harmony is the norm. Admittedly, if you were using paper, pencil and an eraser the job of changing a pad rhythm would be even more time consuming.
> 
> Notation software like Staffpad is divided into note input (via pen recognition) and editing (once the note has been recognized). Much of the editing in Staffpad can be done with the pen e.g. removing the tail off an 1/8 note to turn it into a 1/4 note or adding the number 3 above a bunch of notes to turn them into a triplet. This is clever stuff and works very well. This is why I'm frustrated by the limitation mentioned above.
> 
> I think Staffpad is great for sketching but to flesh out the composition or arrangement you really need to export XML into the likes of Sibelius or Notion (I have both). With the latest Sibelius 8.2 a feature I've been waiting for ages has finally been added i.e. the ability to move notes or chords, left or right without cutting and pasting. This makes changing chordal rhythms and intricate melody phrasing a breeze.
> 
> I'm also a big Notion fan but I'm finding I'm using it less because development is slow and some basic sectional voicing features are not there e.g. the ability to arrange, explode and reduce staves.



I would also suggest being able to add doted rhythms or change any note value for that matter. Most of the time my handwriting is fine, but sometimes it is more trouble than its worth to change a note length. I would also love to be able to change the bar lines with 8th and 16th notes. When erasing, you break the continuity and it can be hard to get it back. 

Overall I'm very impressed and loving the app. Every time I use it I get better and more proficient.


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## dcoscina

I just got a Surface Pro 3 and its much better with Staffpad than the regular Surface. No issues with palm recognition either. My only gripe is that my 128gb i3 seems to get warmer in the top right corner more than the Surface non pro...


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## ed buller

gyprock said:


> I've been using Staffpad on a Surface 3 and the pen recognition is excellent however there is one issue that is bugging me and I've contacted the developer about it. Currently you cannot convert a solid notehead (e.g. 1/4 note) to an open notehead (1/2 note) and vice versa. You basically have to erase and redraw the note. This is ok for melodies but once you start getting stacks of chords in pads and you decide you want to change the rhythm from 1/2 notes to something more syncopated, then you have to erase and redraw. This is particularly troublesome in big band charts where sectional harmony is the norm. Admittedly, if you were using paper, pencil and an eraser the job of changing a pad rhythm would be even more time consuming.
> .



This IS it's biggest flaw at the moment for me too. Retroactively changing note lengths. You really should have some sort of selection tool , where you can highlight the notes and change their length. Also an octave up or down tool would be useful too. 

e


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## Noam Guterman

StaffPad update available
http://blog.staffpad.net/staffpad-april-update-2/


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## augChord

Hi, all. New to the forum, and with a question that I see has already been discussed, but maybe I can get more feedback.

So, right now, I'm trying to figure out whether to purchase a Surface Pro 4 or an iPad Pro. And one of the major deciding factors for me is the quality of Staffpad (made for the Surface models) vs. the quality of Notateme (on the iPad Pro). I primarily want a handwritten notation tool for self-education, on the theory that "writing helps reading": to learn sight-reading, sight-signing, transcription, etc. I'm nowhere near the level where I need all the Sibelius-type bells-and-whistles; I just want to become sight-reading and sight-singing competent, and I can see right away that a handwriting and instant playback app will speed me up on those things.

On this thread (and others), I'm reading negative things about Notateme and more-or-less positive things about Staffpad. Is the handwriting recognition for Staffpad that much better than Notateme? Part of the reason I am presently leaning towards investing in an iPad Pro is the Apple pencil, which is pretty much the closest thing to a natural writing experience as far as tablet stylii goes. But I've tried the Surface Pro 4's stylus, and it is ok, just not as good or as satisfying (I'm also teaching myself to draw).

However, if Staffpad is that much better than Notateme -- and if Notateme is that poor an app -- I might just go with the Surface Pro 4 instead, regardless of how good the iPencil is.

For those who have tried both apps, what is your verdict? And is Notion 8, as far as handwriting entry goes, a good alternative (because Notion 8 is available for Apple ios).


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## wcreed51

One thing that might saw you toward the iPad is the availability of Notion. Not for its handwriting but as a more full featured notation tool.


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## Flaneurette

Looks great. Time to buy a new Tablet/Pad as this seems really useful.


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## Nathanael Iversen

I tried it out for a week or two. It is not faster than Sibelius for me with key commands. Staff Pad is very cool, and I had a brief fantasy about the Surface Studio sitting on my piano - just like a giant sheet of paper. But it is slow. Slower than Sibelius, so I have set it aside.


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## Phillip

Sibelius with shortcuts can be lightning fast. It is like playing musical instrument.


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## jonathanprice

With your Surface Pro 4, how many staves can you get on the screen and still draw notes comfortably? Also, I'm used to scoring full orchestra on an 8-stave sketch. If I wrote all the hi winds on one staff, is there a layer function to be able to separate these into individual staves later?


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## MoteMusic

jonathanprice said:


> With your Surface Pro 4, how many staves can you get on the screen and still draw notes comfortably? Also, I'm used to scoring full orchestra on an 8-stave sketch. If I wrote all the hi winds on one staff, is there a layer function to be able to separate these into individual staves later?


I would say, for writing, the size of the stave means I can have 6 on screen at any time and still write comfortably on the top five.

Having been a pencil and paper guy for a good while now, there are some aspects of working on A3 paper for orchestra that StaffPad on a surface simply can't do. However, I do love using it for sketches and studies, particularly given that you can just scribble things on in sketch mode, as opposed to handwriting recognition mode, and then re-draft later with recognisable notes. This fits with my workflow for writing for orchestra- I often sketch in very very rough shape first time round, just to get the flow of the melodies etc, with harmony written above/on another stave. StaffPad lets me do that without getting through a rather large quantity of paper!!


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## Xaviez

wcreed51 said:


> One thing that might saw you toward the iPad is the availability of Notion. Not for its handwriting but as a more full featured notation tool.


Notion is available for Windows too, so he could install it on a Surface, it also supports handwriting on Windows so the best of both worlds there.
Though I can't comment on how good the handwriting is in Notion on a Surface, nor compare it to StaffPad, as I don't own a Surface, yet...


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