# Nick And Thomas Speak About Woodwinds



## Nick Phoenix (Aug 2, 2012)

A statement about Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds:

If Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds does not sound in line with past products
of the series it is because, unlike with prior products, we were only
involved in the production process up until the critical final editing and
programming phase, at which point EW's team took over completely with no
further input from us. We have always been, and still are willing to finish
the Woodwinds for EW in accordance with our original concept, ideas and
design, and in line with the rest of the products in the Hollywood series.
However, despite our continued willingness, EW has refused to allow us to do
so.

All The Best, Nick and Thomas


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## choc0thrax (Aug 2, 2012)

So is this why I heard a HOW demo the other day where part of it had the beautiful sound of a Casio mixed with the fluid legato of Jimmy from south park?

Good move EW! 8)


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## Ed (Aug 2, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> (Nick is no longer affiliated with East West and have no idea why EAST WEST is written under his name on this forum. ADMIN please correct)



I like how Nick is writing in 3rd person hehe


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## rpaillot (Aug 2, 2012)

Clearly shows that editing and programming is the key...


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## handz (Aug 2, 2012)

So I hope this means birth of a new independent sample developer.


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## deniz (Aug 2, 2012)

What's ging on here.?

Now is confirmed that Nick and Thomas no longer affiliated to East West.
Hope that they etablish in a New company based on native Instruments libarys.

All the best for Nick and Thomas .


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## james7275 (Aug 2, 2012)

Nick, is it safe to assume that you and Thomas will start your own sampling company? And if you did, would it be called Quantum Leap still or something else?


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## DaddyO (Aug 2, 2012)

I hear something in the wind, whispering from the East and from the West, as if saying, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"


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## playz123 (Aug 2, 2012)

Thank you Nick and Thomas for that enlightening statement. I just want to say "thank you" for the work you did on previous releases, and wish you both all the best in the future. I certainly hope your impressive talents will lead to an association with other products from other developers, and it won't be long before we will once again be able to offer praise for new projects. I think many of us appreciate the work you do and are thankful for the contributions you have made to our successes, both past and present. Hopefully, too, you will remain an active member of this forum. My sincere best wishes to you both.


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## adg21 (Aug 2, 2012)

No smoke screen. Nice statement.


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## kclements (Aug 2, 2012)

I wish you both well. 

kc


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## organix (Aug 2, 2012)

Never change a winning team.

Wish you the best Nick and Thomas. I'm sure you both were the key for quality on Hollywood Strings and Brass.


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## Casey Edwards (Aug 2, 2012)

I enjoy truth bombs. o-[][]-o


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## RiffWraith (Aug 2, 2012)

Someone (not I) started a thread on the SO forum about 5 min ago, linking to the same post on GS, asking what was up. That thread is now gone. Hmmm.....


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## Benji (Aug 2, 2012)

Just noticed the flash thread on SO Forum too...


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## Niah (Aug 2, 2012)

free at last...free at last...


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## NYC Composer (Aug 2, 2012)

"Come along, Watson-the game's afoot!"

© Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 2, 2012)

Classy dudes, all the way! I wish you both some great scoring gigs!


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## José Herring (Aug 2, 2012)

It's good to hear from you Nick. Best of luck in the future. I hope you do decided to continue sampling and I wish you and TJ much success as composers as well.


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## adg21 (Aug 2, 2012)

Niah @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> free at last...free at last...


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## NYC Composer (Aug 2, 2012)

It's good to have some clarity-assuming it's Nick who actually posted.

If so, Nick, you're an amazing samplist and a fine composer, and I wish you success at whatever you choose to do.


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## Gerd Kaeding (Aug 2, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> A statement about Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds:
> 
> If Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds does not sound in line with past products
> of the series it is because, unlike with prior products, we were only
> ...



First of all : 
good luck to both of you for all your future activity , be it in the sampling world or as composers .

Second :
Now I know why I'm pulling my hair out here since I've received my copy of HOW this morning, sitting in front of this library that has the substance , but not the ability to perform well . 


Best

Gerd


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## Vision (Aug 2, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> It's good to have some clarity-assuming it's Nick who actually posted.
> 
> If so, Nick, you're an amazing samplist and a fine composer, and I wish you success at whatever you choose to do.



If that's not Nick, I'd have to say that this dude channeled a Nick Phoenix entity pretty well. Straight forward and BS free..


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## NYC Composer (Aug 2, 2012)

Vision @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Aug 02 said:
> 
> 
> > It's good to have some clarity-assuming it's Nick who actually posted.
> ...



Agreed-it's just that with the long silence and the implication that there was a lawyer-imposed silence, I'm unsure.


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## 667 (Aug 2, 2012)

Oh man now my HS bugs are never gonna get fixed. :-(

Cheers and good luck guys!!!


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## Dan Mott (Aug 2, 2012)

If that really was Nick.

Wish you all the best, as well as Thomas J.

HS is definitely still my favorite string labrary.

Cheers.


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## Daniel James (Aug 2, 2012)

Good luck Nick and Thomas. Looking forward to what you get up to next 

Dan


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## quantum7 (Aug 2, 2012)

Good luck with all your future endeavors Nick & Thomas. My decision to never purchase another PLAY product ever again has now been reinforced.


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## Dan Mott (Aug 2, 2012)

667 @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Oh man now my HS bugs are never gonna get fixed. :-(
> 
> Cheers and good luck guys!!!



Your post actually got me thinking.


I wonder what the future of HS and HB are development wise....

I know there have been some great feature requests out there that Nick was thinking of doing, such as using CC11 instead of velocity for crossfading between dynamics on the short notes, considering the short notes through out the library are a bit too jumpy as far as dynamics are concerned. At least in my experiences and there definitely needs some treatment there. 

Anyway.


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## dannthr (Aug 2, 2012)

Dan Reynolds wishes Nick Phoenix and Thomas J Bergersen the best of luck in new endeavors in and out of the sampling world.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 2, 2012)

dannthr @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Dan Reynolds wishes Nick Phoenix and Thomas J Bergersen the best of luck in new endeavors in and out of the sampling world.



Who's Dan Reynolds?


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## StrezovSampling (Aug 3, 2012)

Once again, guys - don't give up and please, do continue making commercial sample libraries. 
We (and I think I'm speaking for lots of people here) love your inspiring and musical products. 

Thank you very much for your inspiration through the years. 

o-[][]-o


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## Robert Kooijman (Aug 3, 2012)

"Hope that they etablish in a New company based on native Instruments libarys. "

+1.

Kontakt is the way to go. In any case, good luck Nick & Thomas!


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## Akiha (Aug 3, 2012)

I have a lot of respect for you guys, both your libraries and music is of the highest quality. Whatever path you choose to take in the future, I really hope it works out well for you.


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 3, 2012)

I hope Thomas and Nick will create some amazing sample collections in the future 8) However, they might be more busy with what I think they love more than creating samples: Creating wonderful music :wink:


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## sin(x) (Aug 3, 2012)

I'd like to join the queue to say that I really appreciate this to-the-point, no-bullshit statement of what's going on. Feels like a breath of fresh air in a debate that has been dominated by uncertainty, speculation and poorly executed jedi mind-tricks.


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## redleicester (Aug 3, 2012)

handz @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> So I hope this means birth of a new independent sample developer.



Or the reappearance of an old one...


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## RiVeTeD (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks for the direct and to the point info. There had been many questions leading up to this. I think this pretty much says it all.

Good luck guys and a great run!!!


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## Bernard Quatermass (Aug 3, 2012)

Ironically , the statement (if genuine and surely it must be) really f**ks HOW from the getgo.


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## hbuus (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm sad to hear that it seems like you parted with East West with somewhat bad feelings.

Good luck to the two of you.

Best,
Henrik


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## kgdrum (Aug 3, 2012)

Well I for 1 love happy endings 
I loved and used the early EW products but held off and never used anything PLAY related.
I hope to see these 2 extremely talented developers start a new chapter with great Kontakt compatible products that don't have the associated problems inherent with PLAY/EW products that I've avoided the last few years.
I say CHEERS!!!!!


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## Vision (Aug 3, 2012)

Dude.. Just thinking out of the box for a minute.. It would be awesome if Nick and Thomas freelanced with 8dio. Not that Troels and Colin aren't capable.. They are without question phenomenal developers/composers. But just imagine the pool of resources that could be shared.. Development time cut in half (possibly). That would be an incredible dream team... PLUS a big "in your face East West" message.

I can only dream though.


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## madbulk (Aug 3, 2012)

Best wishes to Nick and TJ.
Whether you make more libs or make more albums, or both, I'm glad you guys are around.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Aug 3, 2012)

Vision @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Dude.. Just thinking out of the box for a minute.. It would be awesome if Nick and Thomas freelanced with 8dio. Not that Troels and Colin aren't capable.. They are without question phenomenal developers/composers. But just imagine the pool of resources that could be shared.. Development time cut in half (possibly). That would be an incredible dream team... PLUS a big "in your face East West" message.
> 
> I can only dream though.



^ this


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## R_FER (Aug 3, 2012)

I'd love to know what was the "original concept" of HOW. It would help a lot to choose among all these new WW libraries. But I think it's not practical to post something like that in a forum (specially if one of them it's not released).

One thing that I really miss in HOW is esembles and more "2" instruments, but I think this material was not even recorded, so I can infer that it was not part of the original concept.


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## bennis (Aug 3, 2012)

Vision @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Dude.. Just thinking out of the box for a minute.. It would be awesome if Nick and Thomas freelanced with 8dio. Not that Troels and Colin aren't capable.. They are without question phenomenal developers/composers. But just imagine the pool of resources that could be shared.. Development time cut in half (possibly). That would be an incredible dream team... PLUS a big "in your face East West" message.
> 
> I can only dream though.


Oh no thanks - nightmare not dream. I'd like for Nick and Thomas to work with a company that don't hype and shout 'innovative this and never before done that' and never deliver... It's August by the way now and still Adagio I pay for in December and cannot use, 8dio... Heres to hoping it is this month.

Back on topic very interesting to hear and I don't think I will be picking up HOW now. Play is hard enough to put and I have only done so before because of this collaboration of sampling geniuses. Best of luck to Nick and Thomas and I hope they serious investigate Kontakt instruments! Would easily be no brainer as a consumer.


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## Niah (Aug 3, 2012)

Vision @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Dude.. Just thinking out of the box for a minute.. It would be awesome if Nick and Thomas freelanced with 8dio. Not that Troels and Colin aren't capable.. They are without question phenomenal developers/composers. But just imagine the pool of resources that could be shared.. Development time cut in half (possibly). That would be an incredible dream team... PLUS a big "in your face East West" message.
> 
> I can only dream though.



Hmm I would rather see Nick and TJ building a new company than rather teaming up with 8dio. I think the more diverse the market is the better. Plus I would bet they have different sampling philosophies.

Nevertheless my guess is that Nick and TJ will stay out of the market for a while and dedicate their efforts to their project 2stepsfromhell at least for the time being.


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## choc0thrax (Aug 3, 2012)

Screw this sample stuff, they need to score films.


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## Mike Connelly (Aug 3, 2012)

Robert Kooijman @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Kontakt is the way to go...



That's a million dollar question right there (assuming these guys stay in the sample dev business). I'd be surprised if they go Kontakt because of the copy protection issues. Maybe one of the newer sampling plugs?


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## synthetic (Aug 3, 2012)

Screw trailers, I want TJ to score something like Star Wars. Enough with the trailer music. BAH BAH BAH BAH BAH BAH <transformer fart> 

But, er, I hear the 8dio guys are working on a woodwind library. Just FYI. If you wanna check it out and give them notes, I'm sure they'd take your phone call.


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## FriFlo (Aug 4, 2012)

EW is SO going down! While the play engine already was a bad decision this will over time destroy the company. After all, knowledge is the most important base of every technology firm. Now, that knowledge has gone.
Doug Rogers never seemed like a nice guy to me! Just looking at a portrait of him and pictures of his dis-tatefully bloated studio interior I somehow didn't like him - note it is rare that I judge people based on images.
I can only imagine that it was probably never a pleasure to work for a guy like that.


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## Dan Mott (Aug 4, 2012)

Who ever the Admin is over there on soundsonline is not a nice guy. :D


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## playz123 (Aug 4, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> Who ever the Admin is over there on soundsonline is not a nice guy. :D


Hm-m, Admin has been very kind, thoughtful and polite in correspondence with me....both on the forum and via PM. Perhaps some of the forum members there could try that approach as well?  Just a thought.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2012)

playz123 @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sat Aug 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Who ever the Admin is over there on soundsonline is not a nice guy. :D
> ...



Surely you are not suggesting that you perhaps get treated with more courtesy by people when you approach them with more courtesy? :twisted:


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## Dan Mott (Aug 4, 2012)

I'm just saying I think the admin a while ago, was a meanie to me.

I'm such a lovable character. I deserve love from the Admin. You guys should love me too.

Anyway.

Peace out.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> I'm just saying I think the admin a while ago, was a meanie to me.
> 
> I'm such a lovable character. I deserve love from the Admin. You guys should love me too.
> 
> ...



Was he as mean as I was to you?


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## Dan Mott (Aug 4, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Aug 05 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sat Aug 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just saying I think the admin a while ago, was a meanie to me.
> ...



No Jay.

You weren't mean to me at all, but a bit of a bully. In fact, I learnt a thing or two from you at least, if you haven't noticed!


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 4, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun Aug 05 said:
> 
> 
> > Dan-Jay @ Sat Aug 04 said:
> ...



I'm glad you feel that way, as in my own way, I WAS trying to help you move forward.


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## dpasdernick (Aug 4, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Fri Aug 03 said:


> Screw this sample stuff, they need to score films.



+1 Thomas and Nick are excellent sample developers but I would bet they are pretty sick of making libraries. Especially Nick. He was there pretty much at the beginning and rode the wave over the years. With all of the competition and teh saturation in teh market, if I was Nick, I think the last thing i'd do is start sampling round robin's again...

I also think Thomas is simply amazing. He'll take over when john Williams retires... 

Best of luck to both of them.


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## nikolas (Aug 4, 2012)

I can't say that I enjoy 'hate threads', and I certainly cannot see the 'innovation' in this thread. The idea of 'HATE - BASH EW' is getting SO old!

I mean, so Nick and Thomas are not with EW anymore. And it does appear that this will influence the decision of quite a few people here in VI!

*BUT* in all honesty I cannot think of a valid reason for this thread, and the announcement by Nick: With all this speculation and perhaps their name NOT written in the box, this would mean that they would not get accused of 'the bad sound' of the library. If their name was in, then perhaps there was a legal case (and after all, all this speculation in this issue makes one wonder if their names are in the box/manual or not'.

In all this stinks a little bit like revenge to me. Sorry guys...

____________________

Other than that I love what Nick and Thomas are doing as composers. I have a few old EW libraries that I still use, and I'm not sure if Nick was in (Gold and Gold XP Pro), but either way I hope the best to all.

_________________

Oh... and I'm on vacation in a dodgy internet connection...


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## NYC Composer (Aug 4, 2012)

nikolas @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> I can't say that I enjoy 'hate threads', and I certainly cannot see the 'innovation' in this thread. The idea of 'HATE - BASH EW' is getting SO old!
> 
> I mean, so Nick and Thomas are not with EW anymore. And it does appear that this will influence the decision of quite a few people here in VI!
> 
> ...



If indeed it was Nick posting this, I can think of a number of reasons he might have posted what he did:

1. For clarification as to what his involvement with HOW was so that there are no misunderstandings.

2. To mention that he offered to stay with the project and finish in good faith, but was turned away.

3. To disassociate himself from the sound of the final project, as he wasn't allowed to finish it.

4. To not have the resulting product, HOW, color anyone's judgement about whatever work he does on future projects.

I don't know what T.J's involvement has been in all this. We know he's an amazing composer. Nick will go down in the Hall of Fame of samplists, someone who broke through the barriers of possibility and accomplished astounding things through arduous work and creative vision. I think the spot for his plaque on the wall is already reserved.


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Aug 4, 2012)

Crazy times.

I hope you guys start a new library. And I hope you call me to bring me on board.


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## sinkd (Aug 4, 2012)

nikolas @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> in all honesty I cannot think of a valid reason for this thread, and the announcement by Nick: With all this speculation and perhaps their name NOT written in the box, this would mean that they would not get accused of 'the bad sound' of the library. If their name was in, then perhaps there was a legal case (and after all, all this speculation in this issue makes one wonder if their names are in the box/manual or not'.



I am glad to know--and Nick and Thomas have the right to make clear to those who might have invested based on their previous work with HB and HS--that their editing standards were set aside in the finishing of HOW. We've been speculating, but Nick's post makes it clear.

I have tons of libraries that Nick has developed, and I also have Hollywood Brass (the complexity of the editing on which is nothing short of mind boggling). Nick isn't flaming anyone here, he's just disambiguating, which I am taking as a sign of his respect for this forum and its users.

Thanks, Nick. (I hope that you are not still reading this thread 

Damon


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## StrangeCat (Aug 4, 2012)

ahh...I remember NorthernSounds now....


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## nikolas (Aug 4, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat Aug 04 said:


> nikolas @ Sat Aug 04 said:
> 
> 
> > I can't say that I enjoy 'hate threads', and I certainly cannot see the 'innovation' in this thread. The idea of 'HATE - BASH EW' is getting SO old!
> ...


As I said all this may apply if their names are on the box/manual. The speculation about this very issue didn't start randomly. It began exactly because their names were absent from the ads, and the SOL page. 

I don't have the said library to check, but even if their names are in the box/manual, I didn't see anyone complaining about the sound and associating Nick and TJ with the product (at least yet).

Thus my questioning and especially the timing of the post.

Oh, and I do think that this is Nick posting, btw.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 4, 2012)

@ Nikolas-I admire Nick's work, but I have no dog in this fight. I responded objectively to your statement, which didn't seem all that objective to me. I don't think that it matters whether Nick or Thomas's names appear on the tin-they obviously worked on the project.


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## nikolas (Aug 5, 2012)

Oh, don't get me wrong I have no dog in this fight either. I mean I don't even have any PLAY libraries, and I'm a full member in SOL with no bannings or other (or posts in the last few months... I simply don't care to visit that place anymore).

But I can't help but feel that the thread seems a little revengeful, that's all. It's an opinion not a fact objective or not.


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## SergeD (Aug 5, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> If Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds does not sound in line with past products
> of the series...



Like "Beware, you won't get the usual top of the line product here" ?


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## Niah (Aug 5, 2012)

I love this thread and I'm glad Nick posted, to me the world makes a lot more sense now.


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## Audun Jemtland (Aug 5, 2012)

quantum7 @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> Good luck with all your future endeavors Nick & Thomas. My decision to never purchase another PLAY product ever again has now been reinforced.


+1.

Thoenix samples next ;P


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## HDJK (Aug 6, 2012)

Another thank you for the clarification by Nick.

Altough, my mind has been set on Berlin Woodwinds before that thread anyway ~o)


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## dpasdernick (Aug 6, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Thu Aug 02 said:


> A statement about Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds:
> 
> If Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds does not sound in line with past products
> of the series it is because, unlike with prior products, we were only
> ...




Hmmm.... After re-reading this paragraph it makes me wonder if this isn't a public statement that was made to nullify any legal actions. Nick is stating "we have always been, and are still willing to..." Could be me just reading something into it that isn't there but it does seem like it's worded in an interesting fashion.

EW has been around for a long time and, like any love affair, the bloom fades. I wonder if it became a money issue. Maybe it was just hearing an oboe player trying to nail a certain articulation for the 60th time that finally broke the camel's back.

I have a ton of EW stuff and enjoy it all. The world is a better place for the likes of Nick, Doug, Thomas and the rest. All good things must come to an end. I do hope that both camps continue to sample the crap out of the world.


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## jamwerks (Aug 6, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Mon Aug 06 said:


> Hmmm.... After re-reading this paragraph it makes me wonder if this isn't a public statement that was made to nullify any legal actions.



I had the same impression.


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## FriFlo (Aug 7, 2012)

Is it my lack of understanding english? To me that just sounds like a formal way of saying they were fired ... nothing ambiguous the to me. Please explain, if you get a different meaning out of this!


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## dannthr (Aug 7, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Mon Aug 06 said:


> Hmmm.... After re-reading this paragraph it makes me wonder if this isn't a public statement that was made to nullify any legal



Are you suggesting that EW is suing Nick and TJ?

What's with all the break-ups recently?


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## stonzthro (Aug 7, 2012)

I think you guys are reading a bit much out of a simple statement that says "Hey, we'd love to finish what we started but EW won't let us".

I rescind the above statement...


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## RiffWraith (Aug 7, 2012)

kb123 @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> google is your friend



Oooh - that's deep. Specifically #21.


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## Inductance (Aug 7, 2012)

kb123 @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> google is your friend



I googled and I see what you mean. Wow, this looks messier than I thought...


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## choc0thrax (Aug 7, 2012)

Well that sucks. Hope things work out for Nick.


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## dpasdernick (Aug 7, 2012)

stonzthro @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> I think you guys are reading a bit much out of a simple statement that says "Hey, we'd love to finish what we started but EW won't let us".



Apparently I was reading it rather well...

messy divorce time.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 7, 2012)

Inductance @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> kb123 @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > google is your friend
> ...



What search terms are we using here? :|


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## Ztarr (Aug 7, 2012)

Inductance @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> kb123 @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > google is your friend
> ...


I dont get that as surely he is far from the the only one in the world who has done this!?


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## choc0thrax (Aug 7, 2012)

zircon_st @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Inductance @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > kb123 @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> ...



All you have to do is use your imagination, friend...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4tY8mQ_1o


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## dannthr (Aug 7, 2012)

Oh snappers!

http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/copyright-lawsuits/california-central-district-court/100296/east-west-sounds-inc-v-nicholas-phoenix-et-al/summary/ (http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/copy ... l/summary/)


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## Inductance (Aug 7, 2012)

And this, too...

http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/1650.htm

Ztarr, I know what you mean. Also, it seems to me that he's being sued... for not having a license??? Huh?


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## dannthr (Aug 7, 2012)

So, this is the danger of doing demos for East West then?


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## Ed (Aug 7, 2012)

Inductance @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> And this, too...
> 
> http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/1650.htm
> 
> Ztarr, I know what you mean. Also, it seems to me that he's being sued... for not having a license??? Huh?




HAHAHA OMG. Are East West evil, crazy or just stupid? What makes me say that? The following quote from the above:



> "East West claims in federal court that Phoenix violated its copyright on virtual pianos, symphonic orchestra, symphonic choir and "stormdrum music."
> Phoenix "incorporated such copyrighted works in such musical compositions and then sold and/or licensed the musical compositions containing some or all of East West Sounds' copyrighted works to third parties, including movie studios and music aggregators," according to the complaint."



Nick and TJ used the sounds they produced to make music!!! SHOCKING. :lol: :lol: So its not just the idea that if you do demos for EW you cant use the library in anything commercial, even if you produce the library, you cant use the library in anything commercial. o[])


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## sin(x) (Aug 7, 2012)

Is it possible at all that the whole NFR license “readjustment” was a precursor to this? A strategy to gain legal leverage?

Man, I think I'll unsubscribe and wait for the Lifetime movie to come out…


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## dannthr (Aug 7, 2012)

It's petty. :(

Why do people become such bitches when they get hurt in a divorce?


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## givemenoughrope (Aug 7, 2012)

Ha, ha these guys. Amazing.


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## Inductance (Aug 7, 2012)

dannthr @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> So, this is the danger of doing demos for East West then?



Apparently. But the thing I don't get is that some of these compositions are years old. Why did this all come about now?


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## dannthr (Aug 7, 2012)

Because when you're angry at someone, you want to hurt them--you use all of your leverage to hurt them.

It's sad though, because it's such an immature response.


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## dpasdernick (Aug 7, 2012)

After reading a lot of this online I can only say the real crime here was naming a musical composition "1000 Ships of the Underword"

/\~O 

another intersting link:

http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/Jeff%20-%20Music%20Salesman.pdf (http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/ ... lesman.pdf)


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## Inductance (Aug 7, 2012)

dannthr @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Because when you're angry at someone, you want to hurt them--you use all of your leverage to hurt them.



Yeah, it sure seems that way. :( 

I've always been a big EW fan, user, and supporter, but all of this is really making me take pause.


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## synergy543 (Aug 7, 2012)

sin(x) @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Is it possible at all that the whole NFR license “readjustment” was a precursor to this? A strategy to gain legal leverage?
> 
> Man, I think I'll unsubscribe and wait for the Lifetime movie to come out…



No need to purchase tickets, the full script is published on the internet and its rather unbelievable. 
Unless I'm reading it wrong, it appears that EW is suing Nick and TJ for using the very samples they created? 
If this is the case, I'll have a very hard time purchasing EW products in the future as this deeply bothers my ethical conscious.

http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/Jeff%20-%20Music%20Salesman.pdf (http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/ ... lesman.pdf)


----------



## Andrew Aversa (Aug 7, 2012)

Don't forget the 10 year noncompete clause. So, everyone that wanted to see Nick do his own thing, that's not going to happen for a couple years.


----------



## stonzthro (Aug 7, 2012)

Don't forget, EW is being accused of/sued for not paying full royalties too. 

Sounds like the old record label trick of writing EVERYTHING you possibly could against the royalty payments, in order to not pay as much as you actually owe... (lunches, plane trips, new equipment, anything remotely related)

dpasdernick - my full apologies for doubting your intuition and such!

I thought non-competes were illegal in CA for the most part - that might be tough to hold them to?


----------



## Beermaster (Aug 7, 2012)

Have to say I think Nick P has always been a top guy to deal with and his passion and expertise has always resulted in some amazing libraries. ( loved the original Quantum Leap Brass... miles ahead of the game ! )

Doug Rogers on the other hand is the only person that I've ever come across who actually made me feel violent. ( and I've never been violent before nor even met the guy ) 

Who was it that had the idea to dump Kontakt and go it alone so they could make a few bucks more on their own front end? ( rather than staying with Kontakt - those early versions of QLSO NEVER crashed EVER ! ) 

I also bet that it was his idea to de-value the IP of their libraries buy slashing the price of the the products by such a huge amount that anyone who paid the full price was left feeling that they'd been totally screwed ( you never see VSL products de-valued nor Project SAM, nor Spitfire etc etc - that's out of respect for their customers and respecting the value of their IP ) - Back in the beginning VSL set up their VIP system for the people who wanted to invest in the full library before it was made.... these VIPs got upgrades and other products for nothing once their libraries were up and running.... East West did nothing for it's 'investors'

The combination of all of these separate issues leaves a clear picture of greed over product and customer care, the same issues have obviously come to a head with the developers .... it was going to happen with that 'game plan'

It is a shame but the rot set in years back.....

I love the sounds... I hate the software and I hate the company. 

Long Live Nick P and his future Sample Library projects !


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## synthetic (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm confused. Is it safe to buy East West products as long as we don't make any music with them?


----------



## Ed (Aug 7, 2012)

synergy543 @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/Jeff%20-%20Music%20Salesman.pdf (http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/ ... lesman.pdf)



Im just page 4, but the wording of this is pretty interesting. Co-conspirators, alter egos... sounds like conspiracy theories to me lol


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## RiffWraith (Aug 7, 2012)

zircon_st @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Don't forget the 10 year noncompete clause. So, everyone that wanted to see Nick do his own thing, that's not going to happen for a couple years.



Not necessarily. If Nick makes a decision to leave, that clause applies. If Nick gets "fired", or there is a split between EW and QL due to something Nick did which is unethical or illegal, or violates the contract he signed, that clause applies. If Nick did nothing unethical nor illegal, nor did he violate the contract he signed, and if the allegations that Doug is making are completely unfounded and false (not saying they are or they aren't), then that clause does not apply. You can't part ways with someone for no reason, and expect the noncompete clause to apply - does not work that way.

Cheers.


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## Ed (Aug 7, 2012)

synthetic @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> I'm confused. Is it safe to buy East West products as long as we don't make any music with them?



Thats fine, so long as you didnt produce the sounds _for _EW apparently lololol

EDIT~: people should take a look at that PDF and what EW are alleging and what they are demanding. Its... insane...


----------



## mark812 (Aug 7, 2012)

synthetic @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Is it safe to buy East West products as long as we don't make any music with them?



:lol:


----------



## MaestroRage (Aug 7, 2012)

synthetic @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> I'm confused. Is it safe to buy East West products as long as we don't make any music with them?



Installing it might be a bit risky as well.

Well, i'm officially 100% done with EW then. I will enjoy watching their collapse.


----------



## José Herring (Aug 7, 2012)

synthetic @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> I'm confused. Is it safe to buy East West products as long as we don't make any music with them?



http://youtu.be/dG5Qk-jB0D4?t=3m22s


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## playz123 (Aug 7, 2012)

Sad...so very sad. At one time, there was enough income and customer interest there to keep them all happy for a very long time. Unfortunately though, when a team like that falls apart, lawsuits often result. But does it really have to be that way? I suggest all of it could have been handled in a much better way.


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## synergy543 (Aug 7, 2012)

playz123 @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Sad...so very sad. At one time, there was enough income and customer interest there to keep them all happy for a very long time. Unfortunately though, when a team like that falls apart, lawsuits often result. But does it really have to be that way? I suggest all of it could have been handled in a much better way.


So true, its really a shame it wasn't handled differently. However, once the lawyers are brought to the table, its hard to get rid of them. Unless the two sides can reach an amicable settlement out of court, I don't see how this couldn't escalate further without a bad outcome. 
Its no longer about justice, it comes down to who can afford the bigger guns as its the better argument that wins, not who is right.


----------



## synthetic (Aug 7, 2012)

josejherring @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> synthetic @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused. Is it safe to buy East West products as long as we don't make any music with them?
> ...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0


----------



## givemenoughrope (Aug 7, 2012)

Beermaster @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Doug Rogers on the other hand is the only person that I've ever come across who actually made me feel violent. ( and I've never been violent before nor even met the guy )



Ha. Maybe a week after being banned from EW's "forum" for asking about Play/Mac/RAM, I was on my way to somewhere and saw Doug peel a right from Fountain to Fairfax in his Lameborghini. I almost wanted to turn around and ask him about it at the light.

I still use SO, SD2 and Pianos in library tracks, etc. If that's illegal, refund my money, EW.


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## givemenoughrope (Aug 7, 2012)

josejherring @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> synthetic @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused. Is it safe to buy East West products as long as we don't make any music with them?
> ...



Ha. Perfect!


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## synthetic (Aug 7, 2012)

What is left of East West without Nick? He was the creative force behind that place. All of the top libraries were produced by him. Look at the front page of their site and it's all his libraries.


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## noiseboyuk (Aug 7, 2012)

The really horrific thing is that, in today's world, East West's legal team might win.

I'm now scared to use any of their libraries any more...


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## StrangeCat (Aug 7, 2012)

Damn! My friend is my enemy!
Suing that's professionalism for ya! Land of Suites!

Good Luck to all!


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## chimuelo (Aug 7, 2012)

I bought QL Brass and QL Guitars as they were just great for Gigastudio, and then waited to see what NPhoenix would do, then everything went to EastWest and PLAY.

Thought thier prices were too high, the resources needed to actually use them told me inefficient coding, and I judged their support by the non responsive forum the 2 times I asked questions. 

The lawyers will make a bundle as the Plaintiff and Defendant sure won't. This is more of a divorce and custody battle, Lawyers love these long, drawn out, proceedings.


Does this mean we'll see more Garritan/ARIA/CHIGASTUDIO stuff...?


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## StrezovSampling (Aug 7, 2012)

no more EW products for me... they totally lost me now. Best of luck to Nick and Thomas!!!


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## Benji (Aug 7, 2012)

Inductance @ 7/8/2012 said:


> And this, too...
> 
> http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/1650.htm



I kinda understand why they suited Nick and Thomas, but c'mon, did they have to stab their backs? I can't help but see positive sides of what Nick and Thomas did: improving the libraries, since they worked on it.

However if I understand well, it was about contents not available in the public library at the time... Correct me if I'm wrong, but users have nothing to fear about.


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 7, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> zircon_st @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't forget the 10 year noncompete clause. So, everyone that wanted to see Nick do his own thing, that's not going to happen for a couple years.
> ...



Riff, I gotta ask..are you a lawyer?


----------



## Inductance (Aug 7, 2012)

Benji @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> However if I understand well, it was about contents not available in the public library at the time...



Possibly. But what rubs me the wrong way about this is that some of the projects mentioned are years old. Why wasn't any of this a problem back then? Also, Nick and Thomas were VERY open about the fact that they were using EW products, and they frequently pointed out which products were used on which songs. Unless I'm not understanding something here, to me this doesn't seem like they even thought they were doing anything wrong. 

In that PDF, an entire Two Steps From Hell commercial release ("Invincible") is mentioned as a case of "copyright infringement." I fully remember Nick and/or Thomas promoting this album on the Soundsonline forum. Why would they do this if they were knowingly infringing copyright? And why would the SOL forum allow them to advertise their album--thereby promoting TSFH? Did they not suspect copyright infringement back then? At that point in time, EW must not have had a problem with any of this. So why did it become a problem now? 

Now, I'm not pretending to have a full understanding of what's going on here, and I'm no lawyer. It's entirely possible that what's going on is entirely different from what seems to be happening (for example, I've heard of parties mutually suing each other for their own benefit...). But at the moment, I'm not too happy with what I've read...


----------



## Inductance (Aug 7, 2012)

Exhibit 1! (Since we're in a legal mood)

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... Invincible

Posted by Nick Phoenix

Nick and Thomas on iTunes

Hollywood Strings producers Thomas Bergersen and Nick Phoenix released their first public album on iTunes yesterday. Artist "Two Steps From Hell" Album "Invincible". All kinds of PLAY products were used in the making of this album, plus live musicians.


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## RiffWraith (Aug 7, 2012)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Riff, I gotta ask..are you a lawyer?



Ewwww....no! :lol:

Just going on past (similiar) experience, and things I have heard from a) lawyers who practice labor law, and b) the NYS labor dept.

Cheers.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 7, 2012)

I guess the other thing worth noting about that clause is that it appears to be 10 years from date of execution, or expiring in ~2014, if I'm reading it right.


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 7, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Riff, I gotta ask..are you a lawyer?
> ...




I'll ignore that. :lol: 

@Inductance, you raise valid issues, the kind that good defense lawyers will raise immediately. 

To answer your question regarding "years old" projects, there is a statute of limitations of three years for bringing an action from the time that infringement could have been discovered with due diligence.

§ 507. Limitations on actions

(b) Civil Actions. — No civil action shall be maintained under the provisions of this title unless it is commenced within three years after the claim accrued.

Invincible was released in May of 2010, so we are theoretically within the statute. But...the real date, would be when EW had first notice of the potential infringement. That could run all the way back to the first drafts or sketches, which may be beyond the statute. Moreover, as you imply, permission is a valid defense. The issue here will turn on whether the permission must be explicit, or if it can be inferred from circumstances.

It's unfortunate when relationships break down. Litigation like this tends to be an escalating game of chicken.

With respect to the non-compete. I haven't seen it. In this instance it likely involves the purchase of Quantum Leap, and is a contractual, not labor issue.

With respect to our continued use of EW products, those of us who purchased valid licenses for EW products stand in a different relationship to EW than Nick and TJ. 
To now declare those licenses invalid, would open a legal can of worms for EW.

@Zircon, I'm sending you a PM.


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## stonzthro (Aug 7, 2012)

I was hoping you'd chime in MichaelL


----------



## germancomponist (Aug 7, 2012)

..... what a thread....


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## Ed (Aug 7, 2012)

So reading the court documents am I right in seeing that the judge threw out the case?


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## Ian Dorsch (Aug 7, 2012)

Man. This really sucks. I haven't purchased an EW lib since they switched to Play, but the Kontakt version of EWQLSO Platinum still makes up a large part of my template, and I've gotten an enormous amount of mileage out of the Kontakt version of Stormdrum over the years. Nick and Thomas have done some fantastic, inspiring work, and I hope that there are bright things on the horizon for them.


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## kgdrum (Aug 7, 2012)

germancomponist @ Tue 07 Aug said:


> ..... what a thread....





+1
Agree

I know for obvious reasons some people I'd like to hear an explanation from about this mess will not or can't for fear of their jobs(EW Lurker) or Lawyers insistence.
But wow I'd love to hear someone like DR respond.
The silence is deafening. .........

But as others have stated,IMO the creative sources behind all of these awesome libraries have gone public with statements.It doesn't seen like the business side of the past partnership want to talk about this publicy in any way shape or form,this in itself to me is most telling.


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## MichaelL (Aug 7, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> So reading the court documents am I right in seeing that the judge threw out the case?




Where did you read that? I take a look, but I doubt it.


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## schatzus (Aug 7, 2012)

Ugh... PLAY no more. It was a good try...
At least the demise of Tonehammer was quiet and respectful. Now I purchase from Soundiron and 8dio. This whole story makes me want to give a pat on the back to Troels and Mike for maintaining integrity throughout.
Cheers guys...cheers.


----------



## zvenx (Aug 7, 2012)

Strezov @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> no more EW products for me... they totally lost me now. Best of luck to Nick and Thomas!!!


+1,000
Nick and I have had our words but he was passionate about his products...so I moved on and I am pretty sure he did too.
I have never had good feelings about Doug...I hope Nick et al win and can counter sue for enough damages to shut down Doug.

this is just revolting......

rsp


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## Ed (Aug 7, 2012)

MichaelL @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Ed @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > So reading the court documents am I right in seeing that the judge threw out the case?
> ...



I was reading the court transcripts, it was probably just a preliminary hearing that I misunderstood.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 7, 2012)

My father was an atty, and my mother a legal secretary. Matrimonial work was a staple in my mother's office. She always advised me to settle things through arbitrators, saying "why give the lawyers half your money? If you concede a little and give your ex-partner a little more than you really want to, you still save big!"

People should rein in their feelings and arrange amicable dissolutions of partnerships for the sake of their wallets, but they inevitably get prideful and stupid in these matters.


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## kgdrum (Aug 7, 2012)

zvenx @ Tue 07 Aug said:


> Strezov @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > no more EW products for me... they totally lost me now. Best of luck to Nick and Thomas!!!
> ...



+ 1,000,000

The EW libraries,Pre-Play started my sample library obsession,I swore off EW with the transition to Play with the CPU demands,the feeling of newer customers sometimes getting better deals than older clients updating,censorship on their forums etc..... That I always sensed coming from DR ...if anyone didn't want to praise the new koolaid .... Makes me want to see Nick & Thomas prevail and start a great new chapter in their lives. 
I love happy endings,The success of talents like this are important to the industry.


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## dpasdernick (Aug 7, 2012)

zvenx @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Strezov @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > no more EW products for me... they totally lost me now. Best of luck to Nick and Thomas!!!
> ...



I have had a great relationship with Eastwest throughout the years and do not wish any ill will on any of them, Doug included. I don't think that Doug would just out of the blue try and sue Nick without just cause. If this is the case then yeah that's a pretty crap move. but if Nick signed contracts years ago that he has broken them Doug has the right to protect himself. (ps I don't work for EW or have any affilation with either Doug or Nick)

It's interesting to me to hear almost everyone here side with Nick and all think that Doug was the sole reason that Play wouldn't work well. Don't forget that Nick profitted off of a lot of the play libraries as well. He hawked the libraries as much as Doug did bugs and all.

I'm not trying to tell anybody here what to think or feel, but to just be a little thoughtful on the situation. We don't know the whole story. I just feel bad for both parties and wish them each great success in the future. I love their products (OK Play isn't as strong as Kontakt by quite a bit) but libs like RA, Silk, The Dark Side, etc are pretty frickin' cool and I've enjoyed using them. 

Fire the lawyers, make the split and then start sampling again gents.

Respectfully,

Darren


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## zvenx (Aug 7, 2012)

There is a lot of truth in what you say Darren, but to sue them for making music and selling using libraries they helped create? That is just low low low.

I have a friend who wisely or not, sided with their mom during the divorce.. The father then sent them a bill for everything he every remembered paying for them from the time they were infants (at this time they were in their 30's)..fortunately they have since made up.. but at the time I thought how low can you go......
this surely reminds me of that.
rsp


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## Ed (Aug 7, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> It's interesting to me to hear almost everyone here side with Nick and all think that Doug was the sole reason that Play wouldn't work well. Don't forget that Nick profitted off of a lot of the play libraries as well. He hawked the libraries as much as Doug did bugs and all.



Well Im siding with Nick because the allegations as Im reading them sound absurd.


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## JT (Aug 7, 2012)

I've never purchased any EW libraries. For the most part I think they sound great. But the vibe that I got from EW just rubbed me the wrong way. 

I can't see how this current situation can be good for business. It's a shame that these differences couldn't be worked out without litigation.

For me anyway, the way the company handles itself is one of the deciding factors in my purchasing decisions.


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## rabiang (Aug 7, 2012)

So... what nick supposedly did was not buying his own libraries from EW?


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## synergy543 (Aug 7, 2012)

Did anyone else notice the titles of the latest HOW demos?

"Saying Goodbye" :twisted: 

"The Seanace" >8o 

So mournful and sad. Hollywood drama or just coincidence?


----------



## dpasdernick (Aug 7, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> dpasdernick @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > It's interesting to me to hear almost everyone here side with Nick and all think that Doug was the sole reason that Play wouldn't work well. Don't forget that Nick profitted off of a lot of the play libraries as well. He hawked the libraries as much as Doug did bugs and all.
> ...



From what I read it sounds absurd to me as well but why would EW lash out and spend a ton of dough if they had no justification? If EW has no case and are just being malicious then that's another story. It does seem to me that the original post on this thread is odd in its wording and that maybe Nick and Thomas have crossed some sort of line regarding their contracts. The law is complex and very absurd at times and people do not act rationally when they get emotional.


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## zvenx (Aug 7, 2012)

rabiang @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> So... what nick supposedly did was not buying his own libraries from EW?



that's what it seems like to my non-legal eyes and brain.
rsp


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## synergy543 (Aug 7, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> It does seem to me that the original post on this thread is odd in its wording and that maybe Nick and Thomas have crossed some sort of line regarding their contracts. The law is complex and very absurd at times and people do not act rationally when they get emotional.


Our laws are black and white (yet open to interpretation because words are not precise) and rulings are often precipitous (winner takes all). Yet, life is often full of gradations and shades of gray that are often not taken into account. The human experience is never just black and white. Thus, the "Justice System" is often an ugly path for resolving human disputes.


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## Benji (Aug 7, 2012)

So, yes Nick used EWQL Pianos, SD2, and SO with no iLOK registration!!!
It's a manipulation, so that nobody will use a cracked version of the libs!! 
haha o=<


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 7, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Ed @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="dpasdernick @ Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:16 pm"
> > From what I read it sounds absurd to me as well but why would EW lash out and spend a ton of dough if they had no justification?



I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that EW is "lashing out." This is typical lawyer stuff.
A lawyer must provide his/her client with a vigorous defense, which, in a civil suit often includes "counterclaims," if any exist. Counterclaims, if legitimate, give the defendant leverage in negotiations. 

Nick, et al, filed the first suit, based on breach of contract, in state court. But, the "counterclaim" involves a _federal question_, copyright law, which must be filed in federal court. 

If EW's lawyers didn't look for, and file, a counterclaim (countersuit), they wouldn't be doing their job. Playing Monday morning quarterback and reading things into the case that may, or may not, be there is of little value. At this point, what's going on is a dual between the lawyers. Lawyers always ask for the moon, in order to get what they really want. What does EW really want...money for copyright infringement? No.
They want Nick et al, to drop their suit.


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## Ed (Aug 7, 2012)

dpasdernick @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> [From what I read it sounds absurd to me as well but why would EW lash out and spend a ton of dough if they had no justification? If EW has no case and are just being malicious then that's another story. It does seem to me that the original post on this thread is odd in its wording and that maybe Nick and Thomas have crossed some sort of line regarding their contracts. The law is complex and very absurd at times and people do not act rationally when they get emotional.



Its not just that, its the words the way they are describing things are ridiculous. Even if they broke some part of their contract Dougs claim still reads like delusional insanity to me.


----------



## RiffWraith (Aug 7, 2012)

zvenx @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> rabiang @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > So... what nick supposedly did was not buying his own libraries from EW?
> ...



That is what it seems, partly. I wonder tho, did Doug initiate the lawsuit with those claims, or did Nick initiate the lawsuit for whatever, and now Doug is pissed off, and responds by countersuing, claiming Nick had to pay for the EWQL libs in order to use them commercially.

This is interesting. If Nick really did use EWQL libs for TSFH and didn't pay for them - under the guise of, "it's my company in part, and I in part created those libs, so I can use them without paying for them", Doug may have a claim. It's all what the contract says; if it doesn't say that Nick is allowed to use the libs commercially without paying for them, then he can't.

Does anyone know who initiated the suit, and who is countersuing? I had a look at the docs, but not in detail.

--edit--



MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Nick, et al, filed the first suit, based on breach of contract.....



I guess that answers my question.


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 7, 2012)

Ed @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> [
> Its not just that, its the words the way they are describing things are ridiculous. Even if they broke some part of their contract Dougs claim still reads like delusional insanity to me.



Welcome to the world of lawyers! Those aren't Doug's words. They are his lawyer's. It's just posturing...no different than any other complaint that I've read. You wouldn't believe some of the absurd crap that I've seen. It's just a part of the game. :roll:


----------



## alanb (Aug 7, 2012)

There really isn't any language in this complaint that is at all out-of-the-ordinary for a copyright infringement complaint (someone commented that it was "insane" but it's really quite 'standard'), although I can picture the "litigator's smirk" on the lawyer's face when s/he typed that Nick "is a former salesman of musical keyboards for West L.A. Music" (para. 11).

The crux of the legal biscuit is para. 21, which alleges that the defendants "have used some or all of the Copyrighted Works to *create digital musical compositions* containing East West Sounds' copyrighted works without East West Sounds' consent and that defendants have, again, without East West Sounds' consent, *incorporated such Copyrighted Works in such musical compositions* and then *sold and/or licensed the musical compositions* containing some or all of East West Sounds' Copyrighted Works to third parties, including music studios and music aggregators." 

[*emphasis* mine]

The Complaint doesn't specifically allege that the "Unlawful Distribution" is predicated upon a breach of the same EULA by which all users are bound, or some other agreement... so there's no way (yet) to determine whether this is something that anyone who isn't a named defendant has to worry about.....

It looks as though Answer/Cross-Claim in the state court litigation may have additional information regarding the alleged copyright infringement.....

If CA law is anything like NY law (acknowledging that in many ways it isn't), it is _very_ hard to enforce a non-compete clause, when doing so would deprive a person of his/her livelihood. At least in NY, judges routinely "blue pencil" overreaching non-compete clauses into something reasonable, and will sometimes excise an egregious (ten years?) (2.5 remaining years?) provision in its entirety.....

In confrontations like this there is usually a lot more behind-the-scenes 'nuance' in the story than either litigant (or their initial papers) will acknowledge, so I think it is a waste of mental energy to try and determine who was right or wrong at this juncture. One hopes that the CA legal system will sort out who did what to whom, and administer reasonable justice between the parties (or, better yet, that they will continue posturing for a bit, through their initial filings, and then reach some kind of workable settlement and move on to more musically fruitful pursuits).

My primary concern is that the EWQL libraries I bought and use won't cause me any trouble in the future — technical, legal or otherwise.....


----------



## gamalataki (Aug 7, 2012)

> I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that EW is "lashing out." This is typical lawyer stuff.
> A lawyer must provide his/her client with a vigorous defense, which, in a civil suit often includes "counterclaims," if any exist. Counterclaims, if legitimate, give the defendant leverage in negotiations.
> 
> Nick, et al, filed the first suit, based on breach of contract, in state court. But, the "counterclaim" involves a _federal question_, copyright law, which must be filed in federal court.
> ...


That.
Prediction: Neither case make it to court. At least I hope not.


----------



## rgames (Aug 7, 2012)

alanb @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> The crux of the legal biscuit is para. 21, which alleges that the defendants "have used some or all of the Copyrighted Works to *create digital musical compositions* containing East West Sounds' copyrighted works without East West Sounds' consent and that defendants have, again, without East West Sounds' consent, *incorporated such Copyrighted Works in such musical compositions* and then *sold and/or licensed the musical compositions* containing some or all of East West Sounds' Copyrighted Works to third parties, including music studios and music aggregators."


Yes - this is the crux of the issue. And I must say, not knowing all the details, that I could see it being a legitimate claim.

If you work for a company (or the company owns the right to your products, as is the case here), you do not have the right to generate individual profit from the company's products without explicit consent from the company.

So, the question is: did EW allow Nick/TJ to use the EW libraries to make money apart from EW (assuming they did not purchase a license as everyone else does)? If not, this could be a real problem for them... If Nick and TJ bought copies of the EW libraries, then I don't see the issue, but it seems unlikely they did that.

This question also sheds light on the odd NFR discussion that came up recently - perhaps Nick and TJ were given NFR copies of the libraries. If so, and they did not have explicit permission to use them for personal benefit, then the updated restrictions on the NFR libraries could have been explicitly aimed at them to form part of the basis of the suit (though the timing would seem to make it retroactive and, therefore, not easily enforceable).

Only thing I know for sure is this: when the lawyers get involved, they're the ones who tend to benefit the most...

rgames


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 7, 2012)

synergy543 @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> Did anyone else notice the titles of the latest HOW demos?
> 
> "Saying Goodbye" :twisted:
> 
> ...



Hmm very astute. Now we're getting somewhere with this!

I wouldn't be surprised if The Seance was just a clever anagram for 'Cheese Tan'. 

Clearly Doug is asserting that Nick's work stunk like cheese and also questions his work ethic for spending so much time out in the sun.

Also, Cheese Tan is 9 letters made up from 1 word plus 1 word which = 911.

Let's see how deep this rabbit hole goes.


----------



## Diffusor (Aug 7, 2012)

wow this crazy. Doug is shooting himself in the foot with this petty lawsuit stuff. It's going to turn off a lot of customers. Or maybe EastWest was already on the downwards spirals due to PLAY being a dig and people wising up. I know I had already pledged not too buy any more Play libs awhile ago.


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## Hanu_H (Aug 7, 2012)

Worst thing in this all for me was that EW was not telling if Nick and Thomas have worked on HOW or not. For me it's lying to your customers. If someone asks about it and gets banned, something is totally wrong. And still they were marketing it as a follow-up for the acclaimed series, which has the same sound. I think they wanted everyone to think it was made with the same team and would pre-order blindly. And if someone asked, they had to delete the post so no one would suspect anything. Good try, but customers are not so stupid anymore. Now I won't be buying any EW libraries, even if the PLAY gets fixed.


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## noldar12 (Aug 8, 2012)

Looking at the situation from a different angle (having had at one time a strong background in business administration):

Hubris is never a good thing, ever, even if one's position can be proven valid. Companies that are on top can easily tumble. To mention one example: IBM was king by a huge margin over all its competition with the IBM Selectric and later Selectric II typewriters (not to mention other business machines). Now: still a significant player, but their historic position is long gone. A second example, in a niche market: top slide rule producers circa 1968 (Calculators, who needs them?).

In general, if someone has a good experience with a company, the person will tell one other person. If that same "someone" has a bad experience with a company, ten other people will be told. Regardless of reason (justified or not), I have seldom seen as much negative publicity for any one particular company.


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## passenger57 (Aug 8, 2012)

Hi friends
I just came across this thread and read it through. It makes me very sad as I've purchased many of the EW products over the years and use them all the time in my film scores.
Simple question, (if it's possible to answer or at least speculate)
How will this affect me and everyone else as far as legal ramifications of using EW sounds in future commercial productions? This is the kind of thing that makes me very nervous. 
Thanks in advance


----------



## musophrenic (Aug 8, 2012)

Reading through this thread, I couldn't help but be reminded of the scene from Iron Man, where Obadiah says to Tony "you think just because you have an idea, it belongs to you?"

Not trying to make anyone sound like the bad guy here, of course. It's just that's what came to mind. *cue "Golden Egg" from the IM soundtrack*


----------



## noiseboyuk (Aug 8, 2012)

Classic Choco post!



passenger57 @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Hi friends
> I just came across this thread and read it through. It makes me very sad as I've purchased many of the EW products over the years and use them all the time in my film scores.
> Simple question, (if it's possible to answer or at least speculate)
> How will this affect me and everyone else as far as legal ramifications of using EW sounds in future commercial productions? This is the kind of thing that makes me very nervous.
> Thanks in advance



I'd say right now it's hard to be 100% sure, but Richard's (and others) theory about the recent NFR license makes sense to me - so if you have the normal commercial license, nothing should be affected. Nevertheless, it comes to something when customers become afraid to use their own products.

The narrative that I pick up here is broadly this - Nick feels (rightly or wrongly) cheated out of royalties for his work, so sues. Doug's rotweiller lawyers scratch around for anything to countersue, come up with "did he ever have a license", get EW to rewrite the NFR license to help their case and then countersue.

Recording the Hollywood series must have cost an absolute fortune. The cases themselves, the reduction in core talent and the extreme negative publicity must put EW on extremely shaky ground financially.


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## TheUnfinished (Aug 8, 2012)

I can't confess to be much of a fan of East West, having decided not to buy any more of their libraries a good year ago. - even though the one I have is brilliant.

But... blimey. Is this some kind of technical exercise? "If you thought we were bad before... wait till you get a load of this!"

If the world of media composers has any sense of decency, this should be suicide for EW/Doug.

It's quite pathetic to see adults behvae this way.


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 8, 2012)

The question of wether or not Nick bought his individual copies to make his music seems almost absurd, but then again in a court case...

Doug has certainly benefitted greatly (increased sales) from Nick's works exhibiting the EW QL libraries.

The legal info explains lots: HOW coming out months late, editing not up to Hollywood standards (I thought the Bassoon legato sounded almost a joke), etc.

This is also very bad news for the immediate future & development of Play, and updates of HS & HB. Had I known about these troubles, I probably wouldn't have ordered HOW. Without knowing any of the details, I can't see EW re-becoming a healthy & productive company, especially with great competetors like CS & Orchestral tools.


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## MichaelL (Aug 8, 2012)

alanb @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> One hopes that the CA legal system will sort out who did what to whom, and administer reasonable justice between the parties (or, better yet, that they will continue posturing for a bit, through their initial filings, and then reach some kind of workable settlement and move on to more musically fruitful pursuits).
> 
> My primary concern is that the EWQL libraries I bought and use won't cause me any trouble in the future — technical, legal or otherwise.....



Hi Alan. I forgot that there is another one of "us" here. :lol: 

I think that any wholesale change in license agreements, with paid customers, would create huge problems for EW. 

My concern is with product support. If those Play updates don't keep coming, OS and Windows advances will render it obsolete. We could be left hoping for a third party sample player that can read ewi files.

Edit: How ironic! As I'm writing this, the EW banner ad, with theatrical curtains, flashed across the top of the screen announcing "East West / Quantum Leap Hollywood Brass Produced by Doug Rogers, Nick Phoenix and Thomas Bergersen" 
It's kind of like looking at the wedding photos after the divorce.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> alanb @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > One hopes that the CA legal system will sort out who did what to whom, and administer reasonable justice between the parties (or, better yet, that they will continue posturing for a bit, through their initial filings, and then reach some kind of workable settlement and move on to more musically fruitful pursuits).
> ...



I am sure Doug would already have made sure that this would not be legal.


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## NYC Composer (Aug 8, 2012)

It would make a good argument to go rogue. Clever marketing sold many quality EW products. I do not think the community would stand idly by as their investment became worthless, or forever tied to obsolete computers.


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## Dick the Flick (Aug 8, 2012)

Woe - woe and thrice woe. Just like in any divorce case ...... the only ones who really lose out are the kids ..... IN THIS CASE THAT'S US. 

The ones in a win-win situation are the lawyers. :(


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## jamwerks (Aug 8, 2012)

givemenoughrope @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> I was on my way to somewhere and saw Doug peel a right from Fountain to Fairfax in his Lameborghini.



Ah, so that's where all the development money from the never-seen "Play Pro" went to. :shock: 

Nothing wrong with making money, but I'd rather give mine to someone with a passion for making music, and not for fancy cars.


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 8, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> givemenoughrope @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I was on my way to somewhere and saw Doug peel a right from Fountain to Fairfax in his Lameborghini.
> ...



You're kidding me. Hasn't it been blatantly obvious from day one that Doug was in it for the money? Nick (and later Thomas) were the passionate ones. If you were passionate about your products you would put some money and time into making them right. PLAY has always been a poorly designed, under prioritized piece of software. And that platform was obviously chosen over NI to be able to make more money (becasue you didnt need to license Kontakt). I am sure Doug's (mostly in collaboration with Nick and Thomas) products have made him a lot of money - and I think to some degree well deserved. But I have always seen him as a business man, not a sample developer.

I dare you to find anyone having just a decent insight to Kontakt and PLAY sample libraries, who will say that they prefer PLAY. That obviously excludes EW and NI loyals.... 8)


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## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

jamwerks @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> givemenoughrope @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I was on my way to somewhere and saw Doug peel a right from Fountain to Fairfax in his Lameborghini.
> ...



Dougs been raking it in since 2004apparently. Some people seem to think EW are almost going broke over these costly sample libraries. Im sure they are costly but I am also sure they are selling very well too.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ 8/8/2012 said:


> Dougs been raking it in since 2004apparently.



Fascinating reading! Doug comes off as an angry... Play user! :lol:


----------



## Niah (Aug 8, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Ed @ 8/8/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Dougs been raking it in since 2004apparently.
> ...



:lol:


----------



## HDJK (Aug 8, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Ed @ 8/8/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Dougs been raking it in since 2004apparently.
> ...



:D He actually does! Posts like this would have been deleted on SO ~o)


----------



## Tatu (Aug 8, 2012)

> Doug Rogers @ the lambo-forum
> If I ran my business that way I wouldn't be able to afford a Lambo!!





Well, to be honest, I think this lambo thing goes a bit over the board. 

Never buying anything from EW again, though. That whole case is just unethical, no matter how I look at it.


----------



## zvenx (Aug 8, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Classic Choco post!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When the NFR topic came up a few weeks ago, I thought the consensus was (although there may only be two lawyers amongst us ) that eula's can't be change retroactively, so it is a bit 'concerning' that what Nick has been sued about most likely would have been projects he did BEFORE the recent EULA change.....

I don't imagine currently that those of us who bought EW products should have legal problems with the commercial work we have done. However those of us who did demos etc for them and got NFR's should be very worried...
is my non-legal opinion.
rsp


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 8, 2012)

. "Although it's important, the money is not the central issue here for me. I have million dollar yachts, houses, businesses etc. - what I care about is the treatment I've received from PLATINUM MOTORS when all I did was purchase a vehicle in good faith." 

I SO feel the same way! Despite my million dollar homes and yachts and such, I just want Play to work efficiently on Mac! Substitute EW for Platinum Motors, and sample player for vehicle, then Bob's yer uncle!


----------



## dpasdernick (Aug 8, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> jamwerks @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > givemenoughrope @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> ...




Nick posted a comment a few years ago that EW wasn't as big as we all thought. He said that Doug had made some significant dough with real estate deals and that's why he had the Lamborghini. 

Even though Nick may be more passionate about the products I'm sure he too was in it for the money. Why else would anyone so talented record a single note from a cellist over and over again? I'm betting that's what drove all of the guys crazy. 

You can bet one thing. Nick and Doug are reading this thread and chuckling at all of us trying to figure it out.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

And today on the Jerry Springer Show.....!

All the developers who visit this forum are _so_ fortunate. They get expert marketing advice from all the experts here. and now they get expert legal advice.

My collaborator, the late Paul Jabara said it best when he said to me, "Jay we need to write a song called "Everybody's An Authority On Everything". :lol:


----------



## Niah (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> My collaborator, the late Paul Jabara said it best when he said to me, "Jay we need to write a song called "Everybody's An Authority On Everything". :lol:



:lol: oh the irony...coming from the closet authoritarian of the forum


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## jamwerks (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> And today on the Jerry Springer Show.....!
> 
> All the developers who visit this forum are _so_ fortunate. They get expert marketing advice from all the experts here. and now they get expert legal advice.
> 
> My collaborator, the late Paul Jabara said it best when he said to me, "Jay we need to write a song called "Everybody's An Authority On Everything". :lol:



Where did anyone here claim to be giving advice, or to be an authority?
I don't get the point of your post.


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## ThomasL (Aug 8, 2012)

NYC Composer @ 2012-08-08 said:


> . "Although it's important, the money is not the central issue here for me. I have million dollar yachts, houses, businesses etc. - what I care about is the treatment I've received from PLATINUM MOTORS when all I did was purchase a vehicle in good faith."
> 
> I SO feel the same way! Despite my million dollar homes and yachts and such, I just want Play to work efficiently on Mac! Substitute EW for Platinum Motors, and sample player for vehicle, then Bob's yer uncle!


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Niah @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > My collaborator, the late Paul Jabara said it best when he said to me, "Jay we need to write a song called "Everybody's An Authority On Everything". :lol:
> ...



I can only claim to be somewhat of authority on a handful of things and so that is all you ever see me talk about as if I were an authority: music, Logic Pro, music technology.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Niah @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



Ah I see... so you are the great authority on PLAY and why it is such a stinker on Mac (especially) - so... enlighten us with your knowledge, please.


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Niah @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



You have quite a lot to say about comportment.

On the other hand, so do I.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Niah @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



Yes, but I don't speak on that as an authority, just as a human being interacting with other human being.


----------



## ScoringFilm (Aug 8, 2012)

MaestroRage @ 7/8/2012 said:


> synthetic @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused. Is it safe to buy East West products as long as we don't make any music with them?
> ...



I wouldn't wish this on any company, however having been subject to some of Doug Rogers' verbal abuse in the past, he has nobody to blame but his own over-inflated ego/pocket!

I find his posts on the Lamborghini-Talk forum ironic to say the least:



> I'm thinking of returning the car until they sort out the e-gear problems. I don't want to be part of a $200K experiment!!
> 
> Doug Rogers



Maybe the MAC version of PLAY is suffering e-gear problems :lol: 

Justin


----------



## Inductance (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL @ Tue Aug 07 said:


> I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that EW is "lashing out." This is typical lawyer stuff.
> A lawyer must provide his/her client with a vigorous defense, which, in a civil suit often includes "counterclaims," if any exist. Counterclaims, if legitimate, give the defendant leverage in negotiations.
> 
> Nick, et al, filed the first suit, based on breach of contract, in state court. But, the "counterclaim" involves a _federal question_, copyright law, which must be filed in federal court.
> ...



Thank you for your perspective. I think those of us that don't fully know the legal world tend to interpret these things too literally (at least in my case). I guess this is just saber rattling, or muscle flexing, or some other metaphor! I guess we'll have to wait and see how all of this plays out...


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## clonewar (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> And today on the Jerry Springer Show.....!
> 
> All the developers who visit this forum are _so_ fortunate. They get expert marketing advice from all the experts here. and now they get expert legal advice.
> 
> My collaborator, the late Paul Jabara said it best when he said to me, "Jay we need to write a song called "Everybody's An Authority On Everything". :lol:



Jay, since you represent EW participating in this thread, can you please reassure those of us who have purchased EW libraries that we have nothing to worry about when using those libraries in commerically released music. 

I have to admit that this whole thing makes me feel uneasy, and that's not a feeling I've ever had when using sample libraries that I've purchased.

Thanks,
Michael


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

clonewar @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> [
> 
> Jay, since you represent EW participating in this thread, can you please reassure those of us who have purchased EW libraries that we have nothing to worry about when using those libraries in commerically released music.
> 
> ...



Yes, you are indeed allowed to do so. The restriction requiring expressed permission to do so only pertains to those, like me, with NFRs.


----------



## Gusfmm (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> jamwerks @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > givemenoughrope @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> ...



Epic post Ed!

It's quite interesting seeing flipping coins when "lemons" and "customer service" are the concern.


----------



## clonewar (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> clonewar @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



Thanks Jay!


----------



## Christian F. Perucchi (Aug 8, 2012)

Man, this is a mess


----------



## passenger57 (Aug 8, 2012)

Could some kind person please help me out (for us less informed readers like me who need training wheels to keep up.)

What is...
- EULA change.....(there was a change?)
- NFR license
- "Classic Choco post" (something to do with chocolate? lol just kidding)

Apologies in advance - I'm totally fried from working all day and night but this topic might effect alot of people who use their sounds... like me!! :oops: 
I assumed purchasing the EW products granted a commercial license, correct?
Should I just NOT use the sounds till this all clears up? SD percussion is the backbone of my percussion template.


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

passenger57 @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> What is...
> - EULA change.....(there was a change?)



We don't know but I doubt it. Sample libraries are useless if you cant actually use them, so I dont think Doug is that stupid otherwise he'd have a crap load of pissed off customers and the entire business would go under. 

It is possible (without knowing more about the case) that he is claiming that Nick (yet strangely not TJ?) needed to buy his own library before he could use it? 



> - NFR license



Yea he changed that, it seems so he could say that if you have a review copy or you have a copy to do a demo for them, you cant use it in anything commercial, I suspect this change was so he could pretend to the court that it always used to be this way and therefore Nick breached the contract. 

Dont know why people are still doing demos for them. Maybe they are being paid in cash.


----------



## passenger57 (Aug 8, 2012)

Thank you for the clarification.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Yea he changed that, it seems so he could say that if you have a review copy or you have a copy to do a demo for them, you cant use it in anything commercial....



"without expressed permission" is what you left out of your sentence, which in almost all cases will be granted simply by asking for it.


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## synthetic (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea he changed that, it seems so he could say that if you have a review copy or you have a copy to do a demo for them, you cant use it in anything commercial....
> ...



For each project you use it on, or a blanket license? Why wasn't this license granted to the creator of the library if it was free for the asking? If the guy with his name on the box couldn't get a license what chance do I have? 

<Deletes Stormdrum 2 off drive>


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## ScoringFilm (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ 8/8/2012 said:


> Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea he changed that, it seems so he could say that if you have a review copy or you have a copy to do a demo for them, you cant use it in anything commercial....
> ...



So Doug didn't give his business partner 'express permission' to use their samples commercially. This sounds pathetic, petty and not the judgement of a man with a sound mind!

I am so glad I chose never to buy another EWQL lib after the farce on the first release of PLAY.

Justin


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 8, 2012)

I think we should stop with the insults about Doug (yes, I made fun a bit too). There's not much more to add to this sad story. 

Maybe this thread has run its course?...


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

ScoringFilm @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 8/8/2012 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



I don't know the specifics and I don't want to know


----------



## passenger57 (Aug 8, 2012)

This situation is a shining example of how lawyers are only after a quick buck and do not act in the best interest of their clients. Anyone truly acting on behalf of their clients interests would know how this damages the brand, the users, and the reputations of all involved. I still love the products and I hope they find a way to work this out. 
I remember when Tonehammer split - it was all done very amicably and there are now two great companies.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

synthetic @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



1. Blanket.

2. I don't know,

3. Good chance, unless Doug reads your posts


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 8, 2012)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> I think we should stop with the insults about Doug (yes, I made fun a bit too). There's not much more to add to this sad story.
> 
> Maybe this thread has run its course?...



Run its course? This thread is only 6 pages. Based on the past, a thread like this should - by my calculations - run about 486 pages. Jay will need to threaten to quit the thread and forum 8.73 times. (Jay, run those numbers through your software algorithms to confirm)

I tried steering the conversation towards 911 and it didn't stick. A mega thread will only die roughly 20 pages after a lengthy discussion involving 911 and/or piracy.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I think we should stop with the insults about Doug (yes, I made fun a bit too). There's not much more to add to this sad story.
> ...



I can't do that anymore, Choco. I now get paid to be here and tolerate guys like you 

Anyway, your calculations were off. I came up with 9.23.


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Anyway, your calculations were off. I came up with 9.23.



Damn! Well that's why they pay you the big bucks I guess.

How do they pay you anyways? In NFR libraries you can put on shelves, use as coasters?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, your calculations were off. I came up with 9.23.
> ...



Aw, c'mon Choco, surely you can do better than that :roll:


----------



## adg21 (Aug 8, 2012)

This is certainly a calamity for EastWest. But sadly this thread has got to a point where if Doug read it he'd just think f***'em. If he doesn't care about what his customers think then you can't make him. In reality sales wont drop, at least not immediately, and even if they do he will still have a lamba. EastWest studios has a rich and illustrious history and is involved with a whole host of other things too. If he does care (I actually think he does) then all I can say is he needs to act because although it may take time, eventually every customer will begin to move away, myself included


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> choc0thrax @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



Well I was going to work in something about HOW and ultimate frizbee but I have a work deadline. Also, I need to finally shower and shave. I was at Subway today and someone mistook me for Dan Harmon.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

adg21 @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> This is certainly a calamity for EastWest. But sadly this thread has got to a point where if Doug read it he'd just think f***'em. If he doesn't care about what his customers think then you can't make him. In reality sales wont drop, at least not immediately, and even if they do he will still have a lamba. EastWest studios also has a rich and illustrious history and is involved in a whole host of other things too. If he does care (I actually think he does) then all I can say is he needs to act because, although it may take time, eventually every customer will begin to move away, myself included



1. I would not call it a "calamity", but yes, it is sad.

2. IMHO based on my conversations with him Doug cares. 

3. You are making the common mistake of thinking that our forum here is a microcosm of the worldwide sample library market. It isn't. That does not mean that EW wants to lose any of you as customers because they don't, but there is commercial success possible beyond this forum.


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

The main problem is the allegations sound ridiculous to anyone that has been around this business for a while. 

If Doug cares, he's still crazy. If not, then he doesnt care if his lawyers argue crazy things.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> The main problem is the allegations sound ridiculous to anyone that has been around this business for a while.
> 
> If Doug cares, he's still crazy. If not, then he doesnt care if his lawyers argue crazy things.



He cares about doing great libraries and I am sure he cares about their being well reviewed and selling well.

I really doubt he cares about what guys on a forum think about legal language his lawyers deem wise to utilize. 

Has it occurred to you that lawyers with probably hundreds of similar cases under the belt maybe, just maybe, know more than you do about it? Probably not :lol:


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> I really doubt he cares about what guys on a forum think about legal language his lawyers deem wise to utilize.



...does he care what people think or not? You JUST told us that "based on my conversations with him Doug cares." Now he doesnt care, righto!



> Has it occurred to you that lawyers with probably hundreds of similar cases under the belt maybe, just maybe, know more than you do about it? Probably not :lol:



Since lawyers from both sides cant be right at the same time, and are arguing mutually exclusive positions thats not how it works, Jay.

For example, his lawyers said that Nick releasing music with EW libraries has harmed EW, how exactly? They probably sold tons more than they would normally, because of the association with Two Steps an association they had no issue with for years until now Doug acts like its suddenly come to his attention.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I really doubt he cares about what guys on a forum think about legal language his lawyers deem wise to utilize.
> ...



I already said pretty specifically what I think Doug does and does not care about.

And the "way it works"in the US at least is that lawyers on both sides are paid to make their best legal arguments and "right" is meaningless to them outside of whether it produces the desired outcome. So until that outcome is decided, we have no way to determine whether it is correct strategy or not and further, unless you one has a law degree and is experienced with this kind of litigation, his/her opinion on the case's strength or weakness is not really worth very much, is it?

Oh, there I go forgetting again, EVERYONE"S opinion on EVERY subject has merit. I just can't seem to absorb that


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> adg21 @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > This is certainly a calamity for EastWest. But sadly this thread has got to a point where if Doug read it he'd just think f***'em. If he doesn't care about what his customers think then you can't make him. In reality sales wont drop, at least not immediately, and even if they do he will still have a lamba. EastWest studios also has a rich and illustrious history and is involved in a whole host of other things too. If he does care (I actually think he does) then all I can say is he needs to act because, although it may take time, eventually every customer will begin to move away, myself included
> ...



As to #3, I'm sure that's true, but as thousands of page views and cross pollination goes on the 'net, bad publicity is simply bad publicity.

I watch (way too much) financial news. I've noticed a trend, especially since 2008-when things aren't going so well p.r.-wise, the CEO usually shows on CNBC or Bloomberg to calm things down and smooth over stockholder skittishness. After all, no one wants an unjustified precipitous drop of their stock.

It does not strike me that Doug is the warm and fuzzy type, but if you have some the ear of the king, you might think to whisper that a pacifying and un-ruffling statement in the forums might go a ways towards establishing damage control.


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> I already said pretty specifically what I think Doug does and does not care about.
> 
> And the "way it works"in the US at least is that lawyers on both sides are paid to make their best legal arguments and "right" is meaningless to them outside of whether it produces the desired outcome. So until that outcome is decided, we have no way to determine whether it is correct strategy or not and further, unless you one has a law degree and is experienced with this kind of litigation, his/her opinion on the case's strength or weakness is not really worth very much, is it?
> 
> Oh, there I go forgetting again, EVERYONE"S opinion on EVERY subject has merit. I just can't seem to absorb that



So easily you contradict yourself. You just told me off, saying that lawyers with years of experience know more about this than I do and therefore I cant judge the ridiculousness of the accusations in the case, and now you tell me that lawyers will make arguments regardless of the facts or the truth in order to win their case. Thanks for agreeing with me though it seems you didnt notice.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > adg21 @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



Larry, I truly do not mean this in a snide way but honestly, what could Doug _possibly_ say here that would help?

That he cares about his products and his customers? I have repeated many times that he has told me precisely that and I have tried my best to communicate that.

That he is 100% committed to the libraries and improving them? I have repeated many times that he has told me precisely that and I have tried my best to communicate that.

I am open to suggestions if you have any that I am simply not thinking of.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I already said pretty specifically what I think Doug does and does not care about.
> ...



What I said was that presumably of us here are qualified to judge the efficacy of the lawyers arguments and that lawyers simply do not deal in "right" or "truth" only to make their best argument. And if an argument that you deem "ridiculous" wins, then it was not "ridiculous", it was effective.

The US legal system is adversarial and assumes that if lawyers for both sides present their strongest arguments, the correct one will usually prevail. Maybe the British system is different.


----------



## synthetic (Aug 8, 2012)

I like how Jay keeps posting, not seeming to realize that every word he types will show up in the suit as official East West responses.


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## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> t. And if an argument that you deem "ridiculous" wins, then it was not "ridiculous", it was effective.



lol no, absolutely wrong.

It can be *both *effective and ridiculous, just because it may be effective doesn't mean it cant still be ridiculous, absurd or dishonest. Unless you think that the person who is right always wins.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

synthetic @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> I like how Jay keeps posting, not seeming to realize that every word he types will show up in the suit as official East West responses.



I'll risk it. I have written nothing about what actually took place because I know nothing about what took place, only he says/he says. And I have not denigrated Nick or T.J in any statement.

But thank you counselor, for the legal advice


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > t. And if an argument that you deem "ridiculous" wins, then it was not "ridiculous", it was effective.
> ...



My college roommate graduated summa cum laude from Harvard Law School. He has said to me, "the American legal system is not about justice, it is about the law and who wins and who loses."

I think few of us believe that i.e the O.J Simpson verdict was correct and that Johnny Cochran's arguments were not sometimes "ridiculous, absurd or dishonest" but win he did.

In the eyes of the law, the reverse of what what you wrote is true: "the person who wins is always right."

I have not and would not state an opinion about the case because I am not a lawyer, do not presume to know what a lawyer knows, and was not privy to any of what transpired. 

What will aways seem "ridiculous" to ME is to hold and advocate an opinion when you have no direct knowledge of the events and no training to interpret them.

But, hey, that's just me  OK, I'm done.


----------



## Arbee (Aug 8, 2012)

The only thing I can be reasonably sure of is that we don't know the full story. Divorces between commercial, creative and technical people can be really ugly because they simply don't get each other. Then the egos kick in...... o=< :shock:


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## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



If you can convince a judge that you are right, even if it means you've lied and everyone that understands this business can see how stupid it all sounds, that doesnt mean your claim or accusations werent still lies. You dont understand the law if you really think otherwise. If you and your friends and family know your wife is crazy, if you get a divorce custody battle you may have to convince the judge your ex-wife is not fit to care for your kids, if you end up losing that doesnt mean your ex-wife isnt crazy and fit to care for the kids all of a sudden. But hey, we all know you arent going to publically agree with me, so I dont know why Im bothering with you . You arent just stubborn like you are normally, you're literally a paid shill, so you couldnt possibly accept any part of what you're saying may just be faulty. You couldnt possibly admit that some of the accusations are over the top.




> What will aways seem "ridiculous" to ME is to hold and advocate an opinion when you have no direct knowledge of the events and no training to interpret them.
> 
> But, hey, that's just me



If you really cant see what is ridiculous about suddenly having a problem with Nicks music where for years it was not an issue, then there's something wrong with you.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed, we had these kind of arguments long before I started to work for EW, no?

And calling ME stubborn? Pot, meet kettle


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...



You missed my point. IMO, things have deteriorated enough that Doug, not his respresentative, should make that statement, and not to you, but to the community. Just as Nick and Thomas made a stetement and did not engage in a discussion beyond that, I think it would be wise and self-serving for Doug to do the same, not regarding legal matters, but instead making a statement about EW going forward.

Many here, like me , own many EW libraries. I for one would like to hear from Doug. Here. I'm sure the same statement could be used for KVR, GS, etc.I'm not talking about him getting involved in an endless debate, just him making a conciliatory and perhaps informative statement. Occasionally, even the king has to leave the castle and go out amongst the people.

My suggestion is serious and not meant to denigrate in the least.


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## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Ed, we had these kind of arguments long before I started to work for EW, no?
> 
> And calling ME stubborn? Pot, meet kettle



You can always convince me with reasoned logical argument Jay, the point is here that you are literally paid off to not accept any wrong doing whatsoever. Who knows what you think in private, but then I also think you're the kind of person who will convince yourself you're right even if the money tells you what to think.

EDIT: I see you still wont address the whole issue of why Doug suddenly having a problem with Nicks music where for years it was not an issue. I know why, its awkward. I wonder how much they pay you to do this job Jay, because I'd have to be paid quite a bit to keep this up.


----------



## handz (Aug 8, 2012)

"The US legal system is adversarial and assumes that if lawyers for both sides present their strongest arguments, the correct one will usually prevail. Maybe the British system is different."

Sorry but US legal system is one big joke usually.


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, we had these kind of arguments long before I started to work for EW, no?
> ...



"Reasoned" is so, so subjective, however, personal attacks are pretty easy to discern.


----------



## zvenx (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> ........
> 
> EDIT: I see you still wont address the whole issue of why Doug suddenly having a problem with Nicks music where for years it was not an issue. I know why, its awkward. I wonder how much they pay you to do this job Jay, because I'd have to be paid quite a bit to keep this up.



In Fairness to Jay, he would have to be an idiot as an employee of EW to comment on that in a public forum whilst there is a court case going on.

rsp


----------



## playz123 (Aug 8, 2012)

I've noticed, that when two parties are suing each other, most lawyers will tell their clients to not say anything to anyone that could influence the outcome of the case. I suspect Doug has probably been advised to not post comments. And I'm also not sure Doug owes us anything other than continuing to create and support his software, and to respond to concerns re. the use of his products. As for the rest, I don't feel that some of it is really any of our business.

There's been a lot of speculation here, accusations and opinions based on nothing but what some other person said, and even Jay, who has often tried to be a voice of reason gets jumped on for whatever he writes. So why would Doug Rogers want to post here _at this time_? We certainly are entitled to make our own decisions about whether or not we buy EW products or support the company, and to offer support to Nick and Thomas in the future, but I see the court case as a dispute between two groups of people, and not directly related to or influenced by this forum or any other. Anyway this whole thread seems to resemble a steam roller that is still moving slowly in a certain direction, so perhaps I should not try to stand in front of it.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed, we had these kind of arguments long before I started to work for EW, no?
> ...



Please, Ed, I could point to tons of threads where you responded to better reasoned arguments with others here, where IMHO they _clearly_ made the more reasonable argument, and yet you argued until the cows come home. I will happily concede my stubbornness but if you are honest, you should too.

And yes, I will not address that issue or any specifics about that subject. I am paid a acceptable amount to do what i do and I do _nothing_ that I feel I am not being true to myself with. If you have a different perception, you are welcome to it and I am Ok with that.


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Please, Ed, I could point to tons of threads where you responded to better reasoned arguments with others here, where IMHO they _clearly_ made the more reasonable argument, and yet you argued until the cows come home. I will happily concede my stubbornness but if you are honest, you should too.



Yes that is your opinion Jay and wouldnt expect anyone to take mine or your word for who's more rational. 

I said the accusations here were ridiculous, then you told me they were not and I am not qualified to judge. When I try and get you to tell me why it is not ridiculous that Doug would suddenly have a problem with Nick's music when for years it was not, you say you wont comment. I get why you wouldnt, 1. Its indefensible so quite frankly you can't. and 2. You're probably not allowed to. Either way you'd look less silly if you refrained from telling us we cant point out absurdity for what it is if you arent prepared to actually explain in any way at all why it is not absurd.


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 8, 2012)

playz123 @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> I've noticed, that when two parties are suing each other, most lawyers will tell their clients to not say anything to anyone that could influence the outcome of the case. I suspect Doug has probably been advised to not post comments. And I'm also not sure Doug owes us anything other than continuing to create and support his software, and to respond to concerns re. the use of his products. As for the rest, I don't feel that some of it is really any of our business.
> 
> There's been a lot of speculation here, accusations and opinions based on nothing but what some other person said, and even Jay, who has often tried to be a voice of reason gets jumped on for whatever he writes. So why would Doug Rogers want to post here _at this time_? We certainly are entitled to make our own decisions about whether or not we buy EW products or support the company, and to offer support to Nick and Thomas in the future, but I see the court case as a dispute between two groups of people, and not directly related to or influenced by this forum or any other. Anyway this whole thread seems to resemble a steam roller that is still moving slowly in a certain direction, so perhaps I should not try to stand in front of it.



I thought I made a reasonable case as to why a statement from Doug would be welcome. Not a debate that he feels it necessary to respond to, but a conciliatory statement and comments about going forward.

Obviously, you disagree. That's fine. I doubt he will ever make such a statement so the question is probably moot, but if he does, you can pretend not to read it. :wink:


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

Doug should give a response, he doesnt have to mention the case, simply assure his customers that they can still use their libraries as usual and that this doesnt change anything. As you can see there has even been some confusion from a few people as to if we can use EW libraries in commercial music, probably a good idea just to make statement to clarify.


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EDIT: I see you still wont address the whole issue of why Doug suddenly having a problem with Nicks music where for years it was not an issue. I know why, its awkward. I wonder how much they pay you to do this job Jay, because I'd have to be paid quite a bit to keep this up.



Ed. There is a very simple answer to your question. It would be completely inappropriate and ill advised for an employee of a party to ongoing litigation to comment on that litigation, or to speculate about the actions of that party. 

It simply has nothing to do with awkward, or how much Jay is getting paid. That is ridiculous. Jay IS a representative of the company, and as such he just SHOULD NOT comment. 

And...you goading him into commenting, under the circumstances, is inappropriate, because you are asking him to do something that he really cannot do.

(sorry for offering an opinion in your defense Jay. I didn't graduate Harvard Law summa, or any other, cum laude, but I have been a licensed attorney in two states. Is that OK? :wink: )


----------



## passenger57 (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Doug should give a response, he doesnt have to mention the case, simply assure his customers that they can still use their libraries as usual and that this doesnt change anything. As you can see there has even been some confusion from a few people as to if we can use EW libraries in commercial music, probably a good idea just to make statement to clarify.



Agreed!!!


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## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

Michael, see my next reply to Jay. I do mention the fact that he isnt allowed to comment on the case. 

Yes I get that, obviously. But then he should not tell us we are not able to point out something is absurd *if *he isnt willing to deal with why it isnt. Actually, thats not true. He can certainly say what he likes, it just makes him look ridiculous.


----------



## rocking.xmas.man (Aug 8, 2012)

i am a bit surprised no one has mentioned this case on their facebook site. i recently heard about a complaint of one person on the facebook site of one of europes biggest telecommunications company, which resulted in a shitstorm with about 72.000 likes and at least a statement of this company


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## MichaelL (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Doug should give a response, he doesnt have to mention the case, simply assure his customers that they can still use their libraries as usual and that this doesnt change anything. As you can see there has even been some confusion from a few people as to if we can use EW libraries in commercial music, probably a good idea just to make statement to clarify.



Wholesale revocation or limitation of valid / paid for licenses would be a breach of contract, potentially exposing EW to a class action suit, in which all license holders could be potential parties. 

Additionally, it would be economic suicide. Who would ever buy another product under the EW name, or any successor? Be realistic.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Please, Ed, I could point to tons of threads where you responded to better reasoned arguments with others here, where IMHO they _clearly_ made the more reasonable argument, and yet you argued until the cows come home. I will happily concede my stubbornness but if you are honest, you should too.
> ...



One more and I am done with you. I did not comment one way or the other on whether the accusations were "ridiculous"as I am not qualified to assess that. I did say that you also were not as qualified as lawyers to make that assessment and you are NOT.

And once again. let me make it clear: if you bought an EW library you are free to use it in compositions that you are paid to create. You may not simply take some patches and sell them as "Ed's Great Strings" i.e.

If however, you have been given an NFR or a review copy, you must write and ask for permission, which except in rare cases where EW feels it has somehow been abused or promises broken, you will almost certainly be granted.

Is that clear now?


----------



## playz123 (Aug 8, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> playz123 @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > I've noticed, that when two parties are suing each other, most lawyers will tell their clients to not say anything to anyone that could influence the outcome of the case. I suspect Doug has probably been advised to not post comments. And I'm also not sure Doug owes us anything other than continuing to create and support his software, and to respond to concerns re. the use of his products. As for the rest, I don't feel that some of it is really any of our business.
> ...



Perhaps what I was trying to say wasn't clear enough? I did not say that the forum wouldn't welcome a statement from Doug, nor did I "disagree" that a statement about going forward would be welcomed. I did say that I felt he doesn't owe us any explanations re. the court case, and I suggested that also he has probably been advised to say nothing about anything on public forums at this time. So I don't quite see where the misunderstanding occurred. Perhaps a statement about the future would be welcome. Obviously some feel we are owed that, but I'm not here to decide what we are are owed and what we are not. I am suggesting that he's probably not going to comment though about _anything_ "at this time" (note "at this time" in italics above). I'll be pleased to read and acknowledge something if he ever does comment though. So no disagreement there, Larry!


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> (sorry for offering an opinion in your defense Jay. I didn't graduate Harvard Law summa, or any other, cum laude, but I have been a licensed attorney in two states. Is that OK? :wink: )



Yes SIR! I hereby grant you the title of an Authority


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Wholesale revocation or limitation of valid / paid for licenses would be a breach of contract, potentially exposing EW to a class action suit, in which all license holders could be potential parties.
> 
> Additionally, it would be economic suicide. Who would ever buy another product under the EW name, or any successor? Be realistic.



Oh wonderful! Looks like we have a worthy defender of Jay! Someone who reads what they want to read, not whats actually written. :lol: 

I am *not *saying that it is at all likely that EW have revoked commercial use of their libraries. In fact, I specifically said the opposite, saying essentially what you just said, only a page ago to user passenger57. 

What you missed in my post was the words, "_...there has even been some confusion from a few people_". I was pointing out that there has been confusion about how this all affects customers, and that some have even asked if they can use EW libraries in commercial work anymore, as an example of an extreme misunderstanding. 

Please Michael, dont be another Jay. Dont look for things to complain about, I hate having to explain that Im not saying something, or is usually the case, actually saying the complete opposite of what Im being told Im saying


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Michael, see my next reply to Jay. I do mention the fact that he isnt allowed to comment on the case.
> 
> Yes I get that, obviously. But then he should not tell us we are not able to point out something is absurd *if *he isnt willing to deal with why it isnt. Actually, thats not true. He can certainly say what he likes, it just makes him look ridiculous.




I see that Ed. But, try not to get swayed by what appears to be the absurdity of any accusations or defenses. It's just legal gamesmanship. 

I once had a case where a person's tree fell on their neighbors' house, and caused severe damage. In his answer, the defense lawyer claimed that it wasn't his client's tree. The tree couldn't possibly have belonged to anyone else. It was clearly located on the defendant's property, but that didn't stop their lawyer from raising a clearly absurd defense. 

This is a pissing match between two angry parties (perhaps with larger egos than average people), with a somewhat public profile. They might accuse each other of "kidnaping the Lindbergh baby" before it's over. That's just the typical BS that happens in litigation.


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> One more and I am done with you. I did not comment one way or the other on whether the accusations were "ridiculous"as I am not qualified to assess that. I did say that you also were not as qualified as lawyers to make that assessment and you are NOT.




If you're going to tell me Im wrong about it being ridiculous then please tell me why its not ridiculous. Yes I know, you cant. So please do shut up about how we arent allowed to comment on things like this. People comment on legal cases all the time, the only reason you're whinging in your usual pompous manour about this one is because this involves the people paying your bills. 

The accusation that Doug suddenly had a problem with Nick's music, as if he only just found out, is (as I see it) at worst insanity and at best dishonest. The way the lawyer has worded it *is *ridiculous to anyone that knows their history. It does not take a legal expert to figure that out. I could use another word that came readily to me as I read it: bullshit.



> And once again. let me make it clear: if you bought an EW library you are free to use it in compositions that you are paid to create. You may not simply take some patches and sell them as "Ed's Great Strings" i.e.
> 
> If however, you have been given an NFR or a review copy, you must write and ask for permission, which except in rare cases where EW feels it has somehow been abused or promises broken, you will almost certainly be granted
> 
> Is that clear now?



Thats nice. Now if I may suggest you write it all up all official like and get Doug to put his name on it, and put it on his website/forum as a sticky so that everyone can see.


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> I see that Ed. But, try not to get swayed by what appears to be the absurdity of any accusations or defenses. It's just legal gamesmanship.
> 
> I once had a case where a person's tree fell on their neighbors' house, and caused severe damage. In his answer, the defense lawyer claimed that it wasn't his client's tree. The tree couldn't possibly have belonged to anyone else. It was clearly located on the defendant's property, but that didn't stop their lawyer from raising a clearly absurd defense.



Well according to Jay no one would be able to be qualified to say ANY defence or case is absurd unless they are lawyers themselves. ANY case.


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Wholesale revocation or limitation of valid / paid for licenses would be a breach of contract, potentially exposing EW to a class action suit, in which all license holders could be potential parties.
> ...




Sorry Ed. Doug is in the same position as Jay. He should not comment, on anything, period. It was probably not a good idea for Nick to make his initial comment.

But...that said, if it would calm EW's customers' nerves, the company, not any individual, could issue a statement assuring its paid customers that their licenses remain valid, for commercial use. That statement could easily be posted on the SOL forum, here, or sent to customers via EW's list serve. 

Given the confusion and concern, THAT would be a good idea, which perhaps Jay should suggest. It will put a lot of speculation to rest, and they can get on with their
epic litigation in peace.


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 8, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Well according to Jay no one would be able to be qualified to say ANY defence or case is absurd unless they are lawyers themselves. ANY case.



Unless I'm reading you wrong again....I AM a lawyer...so I guess I can make the absurdity call. But, perhaps you mean that you can't judge whether or not my example was absurd, because you're not???? :?:


----------



## Ed (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Sorry Ed. Doug is in the same position as Jay. He should not comment, on anything, period. It was probably not a good idea for Nick to make his initial comment.



Michael I already said he need not comment on the case, but he still has a business to run.

He needs to (or should) assure his customers that nothing has changed regarding the licence agreement in libraries bought from East West and that they are committed to customer support yadda yadda yadda. Edit: It seems Jay thinks his snide pompous little responses on these forums are adequate. Well its not how I'd run my business, they're free to do whatever they like.



MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Well according to Jay no one would be able to be qualified to say ANY defence or case is absurd unless they are lawyers themselves. ANY case.
> ...



Thats right, according to Jay, unless Im a lawyer if you show me any legal case I cannot determine it to be absurd no matter what, because Im not a lawyer. And if you tell me its absurd, then thats just your authority, Im still not allowed to say its absurd because >>I<< think its absurd, if I say its absurd then thats because YOU told me it was because you're the one with the authority and therefore the only one qualified to make a determination on the matter. Have you actually been reading Jays posts at all? Im not sure how you didnt pick up on this


----------



## Mike Greene (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL, I think I speak for a lot of us when I say that your perspective on all of this have been very educational and helpful. Thanks for posting, because speculation (myself included) could easily get out of hand otherwise. 8)


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Sorry Ed. Doug is in the same position as Jay. He should not comment, on anything, period. It was probably not a good idea for Nick to make his initial comment.
> 
> But...that said, if it would calm EW's customers' nerves, the company, not any individual, could issue a statement assuring its paid customers that their licenses remain valid, for commercial use. That statement could easily be posted on the SOL forum, here, or sent to customers via EW's list serve.
> 
> ...



I did this unambiguously several times now. And on this specific issue, I am speaking for the company.

If not, I guess I will be open for a lawsuit


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 8, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Given the confusion and concern, THAT would be a good idea, which perhaps Jay should suggest. It will put a lot of speculation to rest, and they can get on with their
> epic litigation in peace.



I did this unambiguously several times now. And on this specific issue, I am speaking for the company.
[/quote]


Yes, you did in fact...middle of page 6. I'm satisfied. 

So..are you purchasing licenses for your NFR's? If not, get permission in writing, applicable to all previous and future commercial projects. :wink:


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 8, 2012)

Mike Greene @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> MichaelL, I think I speak for a lot of us when I say that your perspective on all of this have been very educational and helpful. Thanks for posting, because speculation (myself included) could easily get out of hand otherwise. 8)




Thanks Mike. It's too easy to get emotional and to lose perspective, particularly if you're not accustomed to what is routine litigation BS. I'm sure it looks totally outrageous to anyone unfamiliar with the system. A lot of the absurdity is simple gamesmanship aimed at intimidating the other side.

Fortunately, I've hung up my legal spikes, and just make music now. I'm almost fully recovered. :lol:


----------



## alanb (Aug 8, 2012)

MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Fortunately, I've hung up my legal spikes, and just make music now. I'm almost fully recovered. :lol:



Lucky fellow. I often dream of becoming a Recovering Attorney..... ~o) 

Until then, I'll continue to suffer the slings and arrows of my professional counterparts... and endure the unfair slagging of my kind even in such august circles as this..... :wink:


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## kgdrum (Aug 8, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Wed 08 Aug said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, your calculations were off. I came up with 9.23.
> ...



that's funny!! lmao lol


----------



## alanb (Aug 8, 2012)

Incidentally, a motion to dismiss East West's federal action was filed today. 

There is a hearing scheduled for 9/23. We should get our first inkling, soon thereafter, of the strength of EW's claims.

In the meantime, don't you all have pieces of music to create and hardware/software to complain about? o-[][]-o


----------



## HDJK (Aug 9, 2012)

Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> ...
> If you really cant see what is ridiculous about suddenly having a problem with Nicks music where for years it was not an issue, then there's something wrong with you.



8 pages and only one mention of a very important fact:

The EW lawsuit was a *reaction* to a lawsuit by NP and Deepwell. Doug didn't decide out of the blue to sue Nick for copyright infringements. We don't know what went on behind the curtains and even though I highly respect Nick for his work and wish him all the best, we don't know if his behaviour actually called for such a reaction (however justified or not).

Comments like 'deleting Strom Drum 2 from my HD' are pretty ridiculous IMVVHO.


----------



## Hanu_H (Aug 9, 2012)

HDJK @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> 8 pages and only one mention of a very important fact:
> 
> The EW lawsuit was a *reaction* to a lawsuit by NP and Deepwell. Doug didn't decide out of the blue to sue Nick for copyright infringements. We don't know what went on behind the curtains and even though I highly respect Nick for his work and wish him all the best, we don't know if his behaviour actually called for such a reaction (however justified or not).


If you read the Nicks post you can clearly see that he did work for HOW and is willing to finish it, but his name is not mentioned anywhere near the product. I think thats the main reason for this and maybe even the fact that he hasn't been fully paid for the job. I would also sue in that kind of situation. Doug is just countersuing because he doesn't want Nick to win.


----------



## tabulius (Aug 9, 2012)

I'm sure they have their hands full with Two Steps From Hell and trailer business, but I hope they have plans for a new company for sampling, their talent is always appreciated


----------



## HDJK (Aug 9, 2012)

Hanu_H @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> HDJK @ Thu Aug 09 said:
> 
> 
> > 8 pages and only one mention of a very important fact:
> ...



Actually no, it's not. There is a copy of the court hearing posted somewhere in this thread, it shows as much as we can know as bystanders, and all the rest is just speculation.



tabulius @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> I'm sure they have their hands full with Two Steps From Hell and trailer business, but I hope they have plans for a new company for sampling, their talent is always appreciated



True, but I don't think he will make 50000-80000$ a month with 2SFH as with EW (according to the mentioned court hearing).


----------



## tabulius (Aug 9, 2012)

Now I'm even more glad that I bought Berlin Woodwinds rather than EW. I even think Hollywood Brass might be the last library from EW that I have and going to buy.

What is funny for me in this case, is that Nick and Thomas using openly East West sample libraries in these amazing projects is actually HELPING EAST WEST TO PROMOTE THEIR SAMPLES(!) What EW is saying now is that they are loosing sales (in what god damned way?). Excuse my language..


----------



## MichaelL (Aug 9, 2012)

HDJK @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> 8 pages and only one mention of a very important fact:
> 
> The EW lawsuit was a *reaction* to a lawsuit by NP and Deepwell. Doug didn't decide out of the blue to sue Nick for copyright infringements. We don't know what went on behind the curtains and even though I highly respect Nick for his work and wish him all the best, we don't know if his behaviour actually called for such a reaction (however justified or not).




I thought that I had made it clear that the federal *countersuit* was EW's response to Nick's initial action, filed in state court. It is a defense strategy. 
Defense counsel must file an answer to the initial *complaint* and include any* counterclaims* (standard stuff). In this instance the *counterclaim* involves copyright law, which is a *federal question* (federal law), and cannot not be heard in state court. Thus, instead of filing an* answer and counterclaim*. EW had to *answer* in state court and file a *countersuit* in federal court.

It's what we call "civil procedure," even though to most non-lawyers it doesn't seem very civil. 

Nonetheless, when you are sued in civil court filing a counterclaim is routine. It balances the the plaintiff's claim and gives the defense some negotiating leverage. 

Like Alan said, don't you all have music to write?


----------



## HDJK (Aug 9, 2012)

MichaelL @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> Like Alan said, don't you all have music to write?



Yep, the mods might as well close this thread, it really has run it's course...


----------



## redleicester (Aug 9, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> MichaelL @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > alanb @ Tue Aug 07 said:
> ...



Oh the ultimate irony - everyone wonders what'd happen to their Giga libraries if Tascam ever ditched it... and what happened 20 seconds later?

Here we go again...


----------



## Ed (Aug 9, 2012)

redleicester @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> Oh the ultimate irony - everyone wonders what'd happen to their Giga libraries if Tascam ever ditched it... and what happened 20 seconds later?
> 
> Here we go again...



hehe, yea but at least with Giga you could somewhat easily convert it into Kontakt format. Not so with Play and all these other formats.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Aug 9, 2012)

And there's even G-Player which seems to play GS files perfectly on both PC and Mac. I doubt we'll see that for EW files - I assume it requires that EW releases information about their file structure - which was my point, that I have a hard time seeing a character like Doug allowing that (unless there would be a big financial gain of course).


----------



## Ed (Aug 9, 2012)

Simon Ravn @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> And there's even G-Player which seems to play GS files perfectly on both PC and Mac. I doubt we'll see that for EW files - I assume it requires that EW releases information about their file structure - which was my point, that I have a hard time seeing a character like Doug allowing that (unless there would be a big financial gain of course).



Well... its not perfect some of the filters dont work correctly and it cant handle IMIDI legato at all. But yea at least there's something

At least if a company decides they arent going to release new registrations because they've gone bust, you can always find some "hack" somewhere, but what if they dont port it to a new version of Windows or whatever? 

I have a feeling a lot of libraries being produced today are going to have a lot of problems in the future, becuase of stuff like this, not just Play.


----------



## flashman (Aug 9, 2012)

Obviously it's a car wreck but without Doug's business brain there would be no East West on a scale capable of producing Strings and Brass. You can't have art without commerce and stay afloat. He might not be the most popular guy around here right now but without both Nick AND Doug we would't be playing have the instrument see are now.

Thank you Doug

Thank you Nick

Thank you Thomas


----------



## Igor (Aug 9, 2012)

Wow, this thing is like a soap opera... oh... hold on... microwave just beeped. Popcorn!


----------



## synergy543 (Aug 9, 2012)

I wonder if there will be another episode of "Northern Enclosures"? 
(most are too young to remember this...way back in the days of NS)

North, East, West....next things must be going South. 
(wait, that doesn't sound very good).


----------



## 667 (Aug 9, 2012)

Igor @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> Wow, this thing is like a soap opera... oh... hold on... microwave just beeped. Popcorn!


You really shouldn't! http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-57489905-10391704/diacetyl-chemical-in-artificial-butter-popcorn-linked-to-alzheimers-plaque-build-up/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162- ... -build-up/)


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 9, 2012)

Well, a moderator did suggest that the thread had perhaps run its course 2 pages ago, but I guess people have time on their hands and nothing better to do.

Their perfect right, of course.


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 9, 2012)

synergy543 @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> I wonder if there will be another episode of "Northern Enclosures"?
> (most are too young to remember this...way back in the days of NS)



I wish I had saved a copy of that. Every time I see Batzdorf's avatar it brings back wonderful memories.


----------



## adg21 (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> "Jay we need to write a song called "Everybody's An Authority On Everything". :lol:



This sounds like a terrible quote to me. How about nobody is an authority on anything, and that anyone expressing the view that one cannot speak because they are NOT an "authority" is almost as bad as self-proclaiming oneself an "authority".


----------



## synergy543 (Aug 9, 2012)

adg21 @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > "Jay we need to write a song called "Everybody's An Authority On Everything". :lol:



OK, everyone raise your hands up high.... =o =o Let's Go!

Every one's an auth-or-i-ty, on ever-ree-thing,
Deys gots der money in der pockets, dey's-be wearing der bling,
Now East, is East, and West is West,
But it takes a Quantum Leap, 
to out do, da best.

Lamborgihinis n da shades,
dey don't mean a thing,
'cause if you ain't got the groove,
you just ain't gonna swing.

Every one's an auth-or-i-ty, on ever-ree-thing,
Deys gots their money in der pockets, dey's-be wearing der bling,...

K, that's a rap!

_-) copyright © 2012
Your free to sing the song if "expressed permission" is granted. 8) 

Jay, maybe you can ask Doug if we can we borrow the cars for a few days for the video shoot? :roll:


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 9, 2012)

Actualllyyyyy nvm. :lol: I've probably said enough as it is.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 9, 2012)

adg21 @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > "Jay we need to write a song called "Everybody's An Authority On Everything". :lol:
> ...



Believe it or not there are reasonably empirical standards for "authority". The dictionary says, " person with extensive or specialized knowledge about a subject" .

So for example, Paul Jabara wrote 4 or 5 huge hit sons, won an Academy Award and a Grammy Award. That makes him an authority on songwriting.

Bob Woodward has written some of the most admired, influential, award winning and best selling political books. That makes him an authority o on politics.

On a more modest accomplishment level , I am a Logic Pro Level 2 Certified Trainer (hi Choco) and have written 3 well reviewed books on it. That makes me an authority on Logic Pro.

So IMHO it is fair to say that people who comment on lawsuits based on their reading of it who have no law degree, no legal training, and no actual knowledge about what actually transpired. only what they _think_ is their common sense, are just the opposite of authorities.

And for me, speaking strictly personally, that makes their opinion toilet paper. Like a piece of toilet paper, it serves a purpose for the person using it at that moment but not for anyone else.

I am sorry I know a lot of you hate that point of view but it is genuinely how I feel.


----------



## synergy543 (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> So for example, Paul Jabara wrote 4 or 5 huge hit sons, won an Academy Award and a Grammy Award. That makes him an authority on songwriting.


Shucks!, I only wrote two hit songs and didn't get a single Grammy. And I only have one hit son. So no cigar for me. :? 

John Williams made an interesting comment during his USC lecture - each time he starts a new project, he feels an uncertainty or lack of confidence as if he's starting for the first time, as each project requires new different challenges. What strikes me most though, is how humble he is. I don't think he feels he's an "authority" (despite what we all may think - but does acknowledge his experience) and... just maybe, that's what keeps him ticking (and got him to where he is). He just keeps humbly striving to do his best.


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> So IMHO it is fair to say that people who comment on lawsuits based on their reading of it who have no law degree, no legal training, and no actual knowledge about what actually transpired. only what they _think_ is their common sense, are just the opposite of authorities.
> 
> And for me, speaking strictly personally, that makes their opinion toilet paper.



Why all this chatter about "authority"? This is a forum where, like on all forums, people converse, which necessarily includes all kinds of points of view, some more or less emotional, informed, etc.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 9, 2012)

synergy543 @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 09 said:
> 
> 
> > So for example, Paul Jabara wrote 4 or 5 huge hit sons, won an Academy Award and a Grammy Award. That makes him an authority on songwriting.
> ...



Exactly true, and if you do a Google search for "John Williams talks politics" or "John Williams on the death penalty" or John Williams on anything but music, you will not find it. He is too humble to shamelessly posit opinions about matters he actually knows little about.


----------



## synergy543 (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> And for me, speaking strictly personally, that makes their opinion toilet paper.


Where's Mike Greene when we need him? (to make a clever comment on who is/isn't a toilet paper authority). :mrgreen:


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 9, 2012)

jamwerks @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> Why all this chatter about "authority"? This is a forum where, like on all forums, people converse, which necessarily includes all kinds of points of view, some more or less emotional, informed, etc.



True, and now you have my point of view about the value of that kind of exchange on forums.

OK, I have had my say and now people will do what they will do.


----------



## quantum7 (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> Exactly true, and if you do a Google search for "John Williams talks politics" or "John Williams on the death penalty" or John Williams on anything but music, you will not find it. He is too humble to shamelessly posit opinions about matters he actually knows little about.



I wish pinheads like Alec Baldwin and Sean Penn would follow John William's lead.


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> OK, I have had my say and now people will do what they will do.



People will do what they will do, with or without your enlightment.


----------



## synergy543 (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> Exactly true, and if you do a Google search for "John Williams talks politics" or "John Williams on the death penalty" or John Williams on anything but music, you will not find it. He is too humble to shamelessly posit opinions about matters he actually knows little about.



Well, to be honest, JW is no Beethoven nor Tchaikovsky. I guess you need to be a REALLY REALLY good composer to comment on politics? Google "Beethoven" and "politics" and you get over 9 million hits.

And lets see, Mr. Greeenspan and Bernanke were economic experts who didn't see the housing collapse coming?

And even the rocket scientist (surely you're joking if THEY are not authorities?) couldn't figure out the Challenger disaster until they called in a loopy physicist to try and figure it out? Some guy named Feynman?

Authorities? Yeah, right.


----------



## quantum7 (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> Well, a moderator did suggest that the thread had perhaps run its course 2 pages ago, but I guess people have time on their hands and nothing better to do.



I can see by your continued participation in this thread you were not excluding yourself then.


----------



## alanb (Aug 9, 2012)

synergy543 @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> a loopy physicist



Surely You're Joking (about) Mr. Feynman . . . :mrgreen: 


[Actually, I studied physics and music before going to law school.]


[Which imbues me with authority in _Zappa-knows-what_.....]


----------



## Diffusor (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:


> Ed @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Wed Aug 08 said:
> ...




Regardless, both Nick and Thomas wrote those demos and effectively sold countless copies of Play libs in doing so. Suing them over some legal loophole is just bad form and sour grapes.


----------



## sluggo (Aug 9, 2012)

I live on a hill and PLAY does not run well on my MAC especially compared to other sample engines. Should I move to a more flat neighborhood?


----------



## Diffusor (Aug 9, 2012)

HDJK @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> MichaelL @ Thu Aug 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Like Alan said, don't you all have music to write?
> ...



Is EW shilling again?


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 9, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> On a more modest accomplishment level , I am a Logic Pro Level 2 Certified Trainer (hi Choco) and have written 3 well reviewed books on it. That makes me an authority on Logic Pro.



Level 2 is peanuts. I'm level 69 fruityloops and got there just by eating breakfast. Imagine if I actually owned that software. 




EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> OK, I have had my say and now people will do what they will do.



Jay has to either quit the forum or this thread a total of just 8.23 more times before this thread can die. I defer to Jay for the proper calculations - he's the authority on quitting threads.


----------



## HDJK (Aug 10, 2012)

Diffusor @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> HDJK @ Thu Aug 09 said:
> 
> 
> > MichaelL @ Thu Aug 09 said:
> ...



:roll:

Q.E.D.


----------



## Resoded (Aug 10, 2012)

In the perfect world, no one questions authority.


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 10, 2012)

quantum7 @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Exactly true, and if you do a Google search for "John Williams talks politics" or "John Williams on the death penalty" or John Williams on anything but music, you will not find it. He is too humble to shamelessly posit opinions about matters he actually knows little about.
> ...



If pinhead Sean Penn posits anything about the horrors in Haiti, he might know a little.


----------



## Bernard Quatermass (Aug 10, 2012)

sluggo @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> I live on a hill and PLAY does not run well on my MAC especially compared to other sample engines. Should I move to a more flat neighborhood?



It depends. Do you drive a Lamborghini?


----------



## FriFlo (Aug 10, 2012)

Breaking new!!! East West Lurker is in favor of the death penalty ...! I KNEW it!!!

Seriously, were is this going? I think it won' help to try to make this thread about Sean Penn ...
Although I think, that he is only passionate about certain things that should be clear to every one, but obviously are not. IMO you cannot call yourself civilized and use the death penalty ... John Williams is only a shy person, so completetly wrong assessment here!


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 10, 2012)

I am so enamored with the notion of grading opinions by gravitas and expertise, I cannot tell you. What would we do without arbiters? Why, it would be mere anarchy!

*forum |ˈfôrəm|
noun ( pl. forums )
1 a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.*


----------



## synthetic (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Aug 09 said:


> if you do a Google search for "John Williams talks politics" or "John Williams on the death penalty" or John Williams on anything but music, you will not find it. He is too humble to shamelessly posit opinions about matters he actually knows little about.



Jay is the John Williams of arguing on the internet

:wink:


----------



## alanb (Aug 10, 2012)

Jay does a fine job here, representing both his own interests and those of an entity that elicits decidedly negative reactions in no-less-than-some...


----------



## playz123 (Aug 10, 2012)

alanb @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Jay does a fine job here, representing both his own interests and those of an entity that elicits decidedly negative reactions in no-less-than-some...



+1


----------



## jamwerks (Aug 10, 2012)

alanb @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Jay does a fine job here, representing both his own interests and those of an entity that elicits decidedly negative reactions in no-less-than-some...



Sorry, unless you can prove some kind of expertise or authority in communications and/or psychology, we won't be able to take your remark into consideration. Thanks anyway. :lol:


----------



## playz123 (Aug 10, 2012)

jamwerks @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> alanb @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay does a fine job here, representing both his own interests and those of an entity that elicits decidedly negative reactions in no-less-than-some...
> ...



Well the man can write well and state his points succinctly, so that speaks highly for his "communication" skills. He also knows enough to not use excess verbiage and can address others without being condescending, so obviously he also understands a little about psychology and how to deal with some of the rest of us here who may be simpler folks. Therefore I fail to understand your point!


----------



## passenger57 (Aug 10, 2012)

Doesn't everyone here have music to write? I spent half a day on this thread recently and got behind schedule - :shock: LOL


----------



## kgdrum (Aug 10, 2012)

It's funny
Jays last few posts seem to be getting more antagonistic and vitriolic,stating that this thread should be closed, stating most people's opinions other than his or qualified lawyers are totally ignorant & users who have purchased EW libraries opinions on the business/ethics practices of EW are worthless enough to compare to toilet paper.
DR will not give a statement here or respond I do think partially from the advice of his legal team but I also suspect he doesn't feel comfortable talking in a open honest discussion where he doesn't have the ability to delete posts & ban users who he doesn't agree with or make threads he doesn't like disappear.
It's almost surreal all of the things that happened at NS that prompted EW's departure seems to be happening all over again, history repeating itself.
Whatever happened between Nick,Thomas and Doug is only part of the the issue.
From my perspective changing the policies of the use of NFR libraries that N&T produced & were obviously tolerated and more probably encouraged for them to use as they wished. This obviously helped promote EW libraries & now this is suddenly the premise of legal action
exhibits the oily dishonest non accountable attitude and actions that had me swear off EW products.
They switched to the Play format and wouldn't admit Play had problems,always seemed to state inaccurate minimum system requirements and then usually suggest after someone purchased a library they should get a new computer.
Now they point fingers at OSX deficiencies & still can't admit that Play and EW might be the problem.
To me the issue is very clear you have someone who suddenly wants to enforce a policy that was not an issue for years,the practice was actually encouraged.
I learned a long time ago,if you can't trust who you do business with and they change a verbal -hand shake agreement as this obviously seems to have been & then turns this into litigation.

This reeks,I always try too avoid conducting business with people who exhibit this type of behavior.

I do wish the best for Nick and Thomas in all of their future endeavors.
A cool thought,maybe they can join forces with NI like Scarbee has and develop libraries directly with NI.
With NI resources and the talent of Nick & Thomas this could be a really amazing collaboration.
IMO this would raise the bar on the quality of NI's libraries immensely.


----------



## alanb (Aug 10, 2012)

jamwerks @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Sorry, unless you can prove some kind of expertise or authority in communications and/or psychology, we won't be able to take your remark into consideration.



Actually, twenty years of negotiation and litigation experience has provided me with ample expertise in both realms. My authority in such matters — were I to assert it — rests on a reasonably sturdy foundation..... o=<


----------



## alanb (Aug 10, 2012)

And, while I do not think that this thread should be "closed," I do think that we should refrain from further pre-judgment and speculation until _at least_ after further papers are filed in the lawsuit(s).


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 10, 2012)

kgdrum @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> It's funny
> Jays last few posts seem to be getting more antagonistic and vitriolic,stating that this thread should be closed, stating most people's opinions other than his or qualified lawyers are totally ignorant & users who have purchased EW libraries opinions on the business/ethics practices of EW are worthless enough to compare to toilet paper.



That is _not_ what I said. My opinion on legal matters is equally worthless, equally toilet paper, which is why I don't venture an opinion on legal matters.

Guys, help me out here. If you are talking about plumbing issues in your house, do you _really_ value a dentist's opinion next to a plumber's? If you have chest pains, do you _really_ value a lawyer's opionin next to a cardiologist's If you are talking about film scores do you _really_ value mine next to James Newton Howard's? 

Of course not. Many times when I disagree with people, I can understand where they are coming from. Other than the "everything is fair game on a forum" idea, which I do not buy, I simply don't get it.


----------



## kgdrum (Aug 10, 2012)

Your obviously doing whatever you can to get the thread locked,I'm not sure if it because of your thoughts or EW's wishs but it's obvious if you guys had the ability to make the subject disappear as it probably has already on SOL it would have been locked and deleted after the 1st or 2nd post.


----------



## NYC Composer (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> kgdrum @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > It's funny
> ...



So Jay, you disagree on the dictionary's definition of a 'forum'? You have your own definition? What is it, please?


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 10, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > kgdrum @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> ...



I don't disagree with the definition anymore than I disagree with the definition of "V show"that encompasses "The Real Housewives of New Jersey" but I would never watch that crap.

This however has always been a forum that seemed to pride itself on being more sophisticated than Gearslutz or Northern Sounds. I just wish it would live up to that.

Anyway, we are all just talking past each other. My vision of what a forum like this should be is clearly out of touch with most so I will just have to adapt.

But I don't have to like it and I reserve the right to complain about it sometimes


----------



## sin(x) (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ 2012-08-10 said:


> If you are talking about plumbing issues in your house, do you _really_ value a dentist's opinion next to a plumber's?



Why are you so fixated on publically attaching warning labels to people's opinions? I don't get it. Don't you think the rest of us has their own criteria in place to assess the reliability of statements that we read in a forum? Why do you feel such a need to share yours?


----------



## Ed (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> . If you are talking about plumbing issues in your house, do you _really_ value a dentist's opinion next to a plumber's?



Quite right. If however me and the dentist can both see water has burst out the pipes and is now flooding my house, I'm pretty certain I dont need a plumber to tell me something wrong. Or, if a plumber does some work for me and I can see some of the connections are loose and a few are leaking, I dont need another plumber to tell me there is a problem with his work. 

*That * is the equivalent of this case and what you have been arguing here.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Aug 10, 2012)

Just updating myself on what's new here, wow!


----------



## kgdrum (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri 10 Aug said:


> I don't disagree with the definition anymore than I disagree with the definition of "V show"that encompasses "The Real Housewives of New Jersey" but I would never watch that crap.
> 
> This however has always been a forum that seemed to pride itself on being more sophisticated than Gearslutz or Northern Sounds. I just wish it would live up to that.
> 
> ...




Well I'm happy you didn't mention the Soundsonline Forum as a forum that you take pride in as being sophisticated in its approach and dedicated to open honest discussions beyond what goes on in NS.
GS does have their share of snarky opinionated posts but the discussions are usually allowed to continue and are not generally censored or deleted as NS and EW's SOL.
But once again you've stated as you generally do showing your passive aggressive tendencies,referring once again to this discussion as being on the level of a bad reality show that you address as crap.


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 10, 2012)

Ed @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > . If you are talking about plumbing issues in your house, do you _really_ value a dentist's opinion next to a plumber's?
> ...


Ed I am a Jewish American male. If I see that I will turn to my wife and say, "honey, call the plumber!"


----------



## choc0thrax (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> This however has always been a forum that seemed to pride itself on being more sophisticated than Gearslutz or Northern Sounds. I just wish it would live up to that.
> 
> Anyway, we are all just talking past each other. My vision of what a forum like this should be is clearly out of touch with most so I will just have to adapt.



This forum was built with the troublemaker outcasts from NS. 8) It's the australia of sample forums.

But it's good to see you've initiated your adaptation sequence, Jay. How many years are we talking here before you make the full transition?


----------



## Ed (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Ed I am a Jewish American male. If I see that I will turn to my wife and say, "honey, call the plumber!"



Even though i can see you're being intentionally obtuse, the point is that according to your logic there is no way to know if there IS a problem at all, unless you're a plumber. If you're saying there are some things anyone can know about plumbing, then you just disproved your own argument. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOe64yE3GzI&t=18s (Ta ta)!


----------



## EastWest Lurker (Aug 10, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > This however has always been a forum that seemed to pride itself on being more sophisticated than Gearslutz or Northern Sounds. I just wish it would live up to that.
> ...


Sooner than later hopefully


----------



## synergy543 (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Ed I am a Hewish American male. If I 5 see that I will turn to my wife and say, "honey, call the plumber!"


Yeah, that's the spirit..make the woman do all the work!

Seriously now,...

Jay, I understand you're a paid representative of EW however trying to exercise authoritative judgement and censorship on other forum members just isn't going over well. Your employeer's actions have triggered the curiosity and concern of its customers and demo creators (and rightly so!). You're unlikely to distract them, steer the thread off-course, or silence them with authoritative rule. Are you under orders to do so from the company? I doubt it, but given what's transpired, I'm not so sure.

Of course I don't want to tell you what to do, but isn't your job is to be a representative interface for an employer who can't/doesn't want to communicate directly? If so, it might be helpful not to white-wash the fence or be so combative. 

It might be a good time to try and communicate helpful information such as assisting EW demo creators to make sure they have "expressed approval" to use their libraries, and confirming this with the appropriate EW authorities. And in conveying factual questions and concerns that users may have. Sadly though, I realize that you are between a rock and a hard place as some of your employeer's answers (such as obstalcles and reasons for PLAY's poor performance on the Mac) seem rather unreasonable. So you've got a tough job. I do hope they're paying you well.

As for what our concern is?....A divorce always affects the children most. And as EW's customers, we are concerned at seeing the creative heart (Nick and TJ) ripped out of a company that many of us are heavily invested in. So we are all being affected. So don't tell the children to shut up because they are not authorities in law or whatever...they have a right to be concerned.


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## José Herring (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Ed @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> ...



Reminds me of a joke that a Jewish friend of my use to say. He would say, "you know the difference between a black family and a Jewish family?" The black family moves into a new neighborhood in the south, is woken up in the middle of the night to find a cross burning in his front yard. The next morning the dad is on the news with his crying kids and wife, talking about injustice and how his family has the right to live in any neighborhood, ect...

Jewish family moves into a new neighborhood in the south. wakes up in the middle of the night to to find a cross burning in the front yard. The man turns to his wife and says "get the kids we're moving".


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 10, 2012)

Probably good advice, Synergy.


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## synergy543 (Aug 10, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Probably good advice, Synergy.


Hey no worries Jay...I always have my wife make the phone calls too! :D 
But you took on one heck of a job handling ALL of the calls for EW as well as fending off the wolves and all of the unemployed composers!

We should make this "BE KIND TO YOUR EW REP DAY". 0oD

(Its official now guys...and we'll wait until tomorrow till we get back to our regular rambunctions activities :twisted: )


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## dpasdernick (Aug 10, 2012)

synergy543 @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Aug 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Ed I am a Hewish American male. If I 5 see that I will turn to my wife and say, "honey, call the plumber!"
> ...



Very well spoken. After the fireworks of this divorce a real concern I have is who will be making those cool sample libraries at EW. It's obvious that Nick (lately with the help of Thomas) was the real ears behind the company. Those are some mighty big shoes to fill. Dudes like Eric at Spectrasonics, Herb at VSL, Scarbee etc are few and far between. EW has a huge hole in their development of libraries right about now. I thought there development cycle was slow compared to the old days of RA, Stormdrum, Collossus etc. it seemed they had a new library coming out every month. Now with the new orchestral sections it's been the only libs they've done. Granted these are large endeavors but I wish they were cranking them out faster.

Perhaps Nick will do his own new sample lib gig but I really wonder if, as a musician, his real passion would be writing. The dough he made per month at EW was probably just too much to ignore? As a composer he's got the rest of us to content with and even with the success of TSFH it's lean out there. Making 50k a month recording orchestral notes (while probably boring as heck) is still money that most of us would salivate for.

I'm Canadian so I have to be nice to everybody... but even if I wasn't I still wish all involved at EW (including really nice people like Jennifer) all the very best. 

Darren


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## suomynona (Aug 10, 2012)

After spending far too much time reading all of this I have come to the conclusion that if I were in charge of EW I would put a muzzle on or even fire this "EastWest Lurker" guy. Definitely being paid far too much for what he offers. He does nothing but make a very unlikeable company look even worse with his attitude. Now he can explain why I'm not an authority on my own opinion....

Anyway I stopped buying EW after they moved from Kontakt and all these threads regarding Play issues, the terrible customer treatment/lack of support, heavy handed forum tactics etc. really reinforce that I made a good decision.

Really like my Kontakt libraries though.


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## jleckie (Aug 10, 2012)

Maybe you should spend less time reading these posts and put your thoughts somewhere else?

Glad to hear you are enjoying your Kontakt libraireis mR. A.


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## synergy543 (Aug 10, 2012)

jleckie @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Maybe you should spend less time reading these posts and put your thoughts somewhere else?
> 
> Glad to hear you are enjoying your Kontakt libraireis mR. A.



:lol:

Hard to be anonymous on a forum with composers who read in retrograde!


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## suomynona (Aug 11, 2012)

jleckie @ Fri Aug 10 said:


> Maybe you should spend less time reading these posts and put your thoughts somewhere else?
> 
> Glad to hear you are enjoying your Kontakt libraireis mR. A.



Why? It was an interesting read and reconfirmed some views I had regarding this company.

And yes the Kontakt stuff was great at the time and it is such a shame they went down the Play road.


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