# The Leitmotif. Do people care?



## JeffvR (Sep 20, 2017)

I'm working on a tv series which is really nice to work on. The show is based around some strong characters. First thing I did in episode 1 was come up with some themes based around those characters. Sometimes there was one storyline across one episode which deserved it's own theme. For my feeling it worked very well to make a homogeneous score this way, and tell a story across the whole season.

The use of these themes went quit well up until episode 6 or 7. When the editors and directors started to temp with music I've created for the first couple of episodes, theme X was used for person Y, theme Y was used for Z etc. Funnily enough half of the time they used the right theme for the right person. When the theme was used incorrectly I changed it to the right theme. It went well up untill episode 8, when director C came on board. He just liked the way they temped it (which was 90% my music) and there was not a lot of room to use the "correct" theme. Fine by me, but the whole concept of themes went out of the window by then.

Long story short. I just wonder if people really care about the leitmotif. Do people notice when you use the theme for person Y when X and Z are talking about Y? The theory is great and as a film composer I notice it constantly, but what about the general public? The directors (on this particular show) only seem to care if the music works on a scene. They don't seem to care about the storytelling across the whole episode or let alone the whole season.


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## jonathanprice (Sep 20, 2017)

The way television is being watched now, where we can binge an entire season (or two) in a day, I think anything that adds consistency is good. That goes for writers as well. Occasionally you'll see a character do or say something we think is out of character, because they let go a good writer from last season and the new writer doesn't quite have the same understanding of the character. As an audience, we let it fly and keep going, as long as it's not too bizarre. I'm sure that's the case with leitmotifs that go awry. I think we notice the inconsistency, but keep going. That said, if enough inconsistencies rack up (say, Wynonna Earp, Season 2), it's enough to stop watching. [Damn, I liked that show in Season 1.]


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## Daniel James (Sep 20, 2017)

I honestly don't think people actively care about them but I think they are important. They are a subconscious signifier for the audience. The motif usually acts as a way to present the current cue from the correct perspective, who is important in the scene and why. For example lets say you have to motifs for two characters and they are both on screen, which one do you play... the answer being who's point of view the music is currently representing. Again audiences don't tend to notice this but it helps them understand the power balance in a given scene and how they are supposed to feel about unfolding events.

At least thats how I use them 

-DJ


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 20, 2017)

I would agree with @Daniel James.

Do people pay a particular attention to leitmotivs ? Probably not, for the lambda audience.
Do they pay a particular attention to the work of the director of photography, the costume designer, even the director ? Probably not !

Each of these things is part of a whole, that makes the audience unconsciously driven into the story, or not. That's how I would see it.

But director C still looks like a ****


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## Harzmusic (Sep 21, 2017)

The most popular example of leitmotifs in television right now may be Game Of Thrones. It works very well there, and a lot of people pick up on subtle (or not so subtle) clues by the music. Granted, the hype around this series is exceptional, and people analyse a lot of stuff when it comes to GOT. But still, it works not only conceptually, but emotionally.

My point is: if you have a good music concept, a solid fan base and strong themes, you'd have to be a careless director to let it go just because it's easy. You probably need strong producers and creators to keep track of something like that in a series.
I'd say there are and always will be directors who care, and there are directors who don't care. If you can, work with the former. Though I have to say that I haven't worked for television so far, so this is just armchair reasoning.


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## dgburns (Sep 21, 2017)

For me, using themes comes with some rules or rationalisations. Obviously you write one based on some purpose. You can write yourself into a corner too if not carefull. Like as in paint by numbers.

I guess it comes down to what's most important, the scene, the person or the plot point. It's fun to be able to have leitmotif's to play around with, especially if you can mould them to suit the mood. But if you hold on too strongly to them, you risk overlooking the possibility of venturing out to new ground as the show unfolds to new territory. Restating a theme can be powerfull, and gives you ammo to build an argument or POV of how in heck to line up a scene or whole act. It's like a puzzle, put one piece into place and therefore logically a whole bunch of options just immediately become impossible.(which can be a great thing, limiting the playing field)

Also, playing with themes means you are trying to go deeper then underscoring with a broad brush stroke. Unless the theme covers a group of people. I think this requires a bit of psychology and you run the risk in a revolving door post environment that the new people may not get on board with.

As to director friend who just strolled in, ENGAGE in story. Talk about why what went where, especially when spotting, that's where you set up expectation.(but let him decide for himself what he thinks and be willng to adapt as well- nothing works better then being a team player)

And keep in touch with the editors, make sure they know what theme goes with what person. Name them as well, that'll point them in the right direction. And most of all, when your story radar tells you to break away from depending on them (themes) go for it- so long as you can justify your thoughts to yourself and to your team, all is good.
Nothing beats talking story with your co-conspirators. And they'll love you for it.


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## JohnG (Sep 21, 2017)

Leitmotifs are ok for children's stories, fantasy, comedy. Used ironically they can be funny too. I don't like them for dramas, as I personally think they are old fashioned and can easily seem corny.

If they are inconspicuous, I don't think they really produce the structure composers ascribe to them -- they don't really work for the audience (I don't buy the "subconscious" argument -- heard it many times). If they _are_ conspicuous, outside of genre writing, I think they can be inadvertently funny.

To me music in a drama almost needs to be a third thing -- not dialogue, not plot, not any of that. It's like the weather of the place or something.


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## dgburns (Sep 21, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Leitmotifs are ok for children's stories, fantasy, comedy. Used ironically they can be funny too. I don't like them for dramas, as I personally think they are old fashioned and can easily seem corny.
> 
> If they are inconspicuous, I don't think they really produce the structure composers ascribe to them -- they don't really work for the audience (I don't buy the "subconscious" argument -- heard it many times). If they _are_ conspicuous, outside of genre writing, I think they can be inadvertently funny.
> 
> To me music in a drama almost needs to be a third thing -- not dialogue, not plot, not any of that. It's like the weather of the place or something.



Drama's have their own set of faux pas too ! (all hail the cop show with it's rush to the commercial reverse swell woosh and lullaby music in between- but don't get me started on the whole conservative construct). Although the piano slam in Law and Order is almost zeitgeist.


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## JeffvR (Sep 24, 2017)

Thanks guys for your opinions and advice. Good points are being made.

Director C temped the last episode with 20 cues and 20 different themes . Mostly my music again and some other music. I don't see the logic behind their thinking but maybe they think people are getting bored by the same tunes over and over again...

I'm really the new kid on the block as it's my first "big" show on my own. So I have to approach this in a diplomatic way .


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## devonmyles (Sep 25, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> I would agree with @Daniel James.
> 
> Do people pay a particular attention to leitmotivs ? Probably not



Haha..I noticed. It had me scrambling into Google to discover the different spellings and why?

Or am I over analyzing and just talking s**t ?


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 25, 2017)

devonmyles said:


> Haha..I noticed. It had me scrambling into Google to discover the different spellings and why?
> 
> Or am I over analyzing and just talking s**t ?


Well, not following you here but I'm curious now ^^


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 25, 2017)

Peter and the Wolf?

It's all context. But one thing is if everything has a theme, nothing has one.

I once had to convince the director of a Shakespeare production of that (I wrote "incidental" music).


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## Hannes (Sep 25, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Peter and the Wolf?


Speaking of Peter und der Wolf - there's a Fargo Episode, where they used the different animal-themes for each main character

I think it fits very well to the episode as the music seems "a bit" ironic, but still quite dramatic in the context.



JohnG said:


> Leitmotifs are ok for children's stories, fantasy, comedy. Used ironically they can be funny too. I don't like them for dramas, as I personally think they are old fashioned and can easily seem corny.


Well it all depends on the context, IMO leitmotifs can fit very well to dramas and enhance the experience without being funny or old-fashioned. (I know, that Fargo example doesn't really help my point  )

It doesn't have to be like the big orchestral themes in Star Wars - it can also be just a specific sound or a few notes for a character or location. By that the music has a certain logic and relation to the picture and I'm sure the brain of the viewer will subconciously "connect" a leitmotiv with a character if it is done well.

E.g. I remember Breaking Bad had a leitmotif for those 2 mexican killer-twins - it was just a very low note on a contrabass with some soundeffects and it was used consequently


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 25, 2017)

Yeah, that was interesting wasn't it (the Fargo episode).

I love that show, by the way. It's so far out there!


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## Erick - BVA (Sep 25, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Leitmotifs are ok for children's stories, fantasy, comedy. Used ironically they can be funny too. I don't like them for dramas, as I personally think they are old fashioned and can easily seem corny.
> 
> If they are inconspicuous, I don't think they really produce the structure composers ascribe to them -- they don't really work for the audience (I don't buy the "subconscious" argument -- heard it many times). If they _are_ conspicuous, outside of genre writing, I think they can be inadvertently funny.
> 
> To me music in a drama almost needs to be a third thing -- not dialogue, not plot, not any of that. It's like the weather of the place or something.



I think if the Leitmotif is too obvious, then it does tend to sound a little contrived, and therefore cheesy or forced. I believe that there are ways to change or very it in such a way to conceal it, yet make it familiar enough in some way (yes, subconsciously). I believe that any score or piece of music set to tv shows or movies should have a purpose behind it --not simply trying to show off your skill, or sound "great!." It should serve a purpose wherever it is used. If it seems appropriate to use a Leitmotif, then I think go for it. After all, how far off is comedy from drama, or tragedy really? If we compartmentalize all of these things then it may end up sounding contrived in it's own way --don't do this or that for drama, only do this or that for comedy...and so on and so forth. I think you're underestimating the power of irony in storytelling (in any genre). Think about Tchaikovsky 6th Symphony (not about Leitmotif), but it's overall, a very tragic Symphony, though it features moments of "lightness" and seeming "comedy." So for me, if it works, do it, if it doesn't, don't do it. I think Wagner may disagree with you on whether Leitmotifs can be used in drama --and he's arguably the inventor of it, unless I'm mistaken on this. But I suppose that's an appeal to authority. Doesn't mean he's right.

The two best examples I can think of on the top of my head -- No 1. Wagner's Tristan and Isolde. I did not find the Leitmotifs cheesy at all. It did add to the depth of the story to me because they were not simply motifs, and were sophisticated in technique and usage.
No 2. Debussy's Peleas et Melisande --I think he used Leitmotif a little more subtly, but I found it rather enthralling and mystical. I never felt like it made the Opera come into a comedic plane by using Leitmotifs. Again, perhaps because they were so well done and not so obvious. The themes were not really that hummable, and thus a little more vague, but still consistent.

There are countless other examples I'm sure, but I can only think of 2 concrete examples and they are from old dead Composers.

I could be mistaken, but I feel like Hanz Zimmer used Leitmotif's in some way in Inception. Maybe the reason I can't really think of a concrete example is because he did it so well?

I think if all you are writing is the Leitmotif it will be obvious, but if it's broken up with other music, it doesn't become as obvious and childish.


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## Erick - BVA (Sep 25, 2017)

JohnG said:


> If they _are_ conspicuous, outside of genre writing, I think they can be inadvertently funny.



Wouldn't the nature of the theme determine whether it's "funny" or not? I don't think simply using a leitmotif renders it funny or comedic. I think it's a matter of the skill used to produce it. And how can something be inadvertently funny if it's conspicuous? Doesn't that make it by its very nature not clearly visible (audible) or attracting of attention (being conspicuous)? And whether it's inadvertently funny or not, again goes back to the actual nature of the theme itself, which cannot be automatically funny simply because it's a reoccurring theme.


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## NoamL (Sep 25, 2017)

They're absolutely important. I have a Youtube video in the works about something I discovered that's kind of amazing... too busy with work to make it now!!! But just listen to this... with your composer ears... do you hear anything _interesting_? 



_Game Of Thrones_ and _LOST_ also both use a huge vocabulary of themes.


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## JeffvR (Sep 26, 2017)

NoamL said:


> They're absolutely important. I have a Youtube video in the works about something I discovered that's kind of amazing... too busy with work to make it now!!! But just listen to this... with your composer ears... do you hear anything _interesting_?
> 
> 
> 
> _Game Of Thrones_ and _LOST_ also both use a huge vocabulary of themes.



John Williams is just amazing in using themes. I also like this video


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## JohnG (Sep 26, 2017)

NoamL said:


> _Game Of Thrones_ and _LOST_ also both use a huge vocabulary of themes.



Yes and they are both fantasy / genre shows. As is Star Wars, with "UP" being a cartoon (albeit one of the saddest I'v ever seen). For that kind of adventure / fantasy / imagination-place score, leitmotifs can be ok, as they can be with an animated movie or anything that is essentially a cartoon, whether or not it's drawn. 

By contrast, in a gritty drama, the minute they are actually recognizable -- watch out for unintentional old-fashionedness / goofiness.


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## Erick - BVA (Sep 26, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Yes and they are both fantasy / genre shows. As is Star Wars, with "UP" being a cartoon (albeit one of the saddest I'v ever seen). For that kind of adventure / fantasy / imagination-place score, leitmotifs can be ok, as they can be with an animated movie or anything that is essentially a cartoon, whether or not it's drawn.
> 
> By contrast, in a gritty drama, the minute they are actually recognizable -- watch out for unintentional old-fashionedness / goofiness.



In one of the most gritty dramas ever made, Herrmann used Leitmotifs quite a bit --Taxi Driver. Though I guess you could argue that's an "old-fashioned" gritty drama. They are even used in quite a recognizable fashion.
I still think it depends on how they're used. Maybe in modern movies or tv, it needs to be concealed a little more, but I still don't see why it cannot be used, ever.


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## JohnG (Sep 26, 2017)

Sibelius19 said:


> hough I guess you could argue that's an "old-fashioned" gritty drama



I guess you could, since the movie is 40 or 50 years old.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but if you want leitmotifs, listen to Star Wars or TinTin. They are basically cartoons (of course one actually IS) a cartoon.



Sibelius19 said:


> Maybe in modern movies or tv, it needs to be concealed a little more,



In that case I'm not really sure it qualifies in anything like the sense of what a leitmotif means -- if it's concealed, it's not really operating that way.

Not to say an inversion or retrograde or something of a passage doesn't contain some of the DNA of the original -- in that sense it could provide coherence, but it wouldn't be a leitmotif as such.


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## NoamL (Sep 26, 2017)

What do you consider some of the best TV show scores in the drama category John?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 26, 2017)

I'm not John, but here's my vote: House of Cards. Jeff Beal.


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## JohnG (Sep 26, 2017)

Endeavour (crime), The Wire (a bit old now), Fargo (tv show, not the move; only seen first season but it's good)


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## Greg (Sep 27, 2017)

I agree with John. It all depends on what type of story you're bringing to the audience. A grand adventure like LOTR and leitmotif is essential and brilliant because the story is so specific. Something subjective like Arrival and leitmotif would be cheesy to the point of ruining the experience. Certain movies need to let the audience build connections for themselves. I absolutely love Johann Johannsson for that reason. His scores paint a scene with emotion leading you into introspective pondering about the plot. Same with Reznor & Ross. They're really scoring an underlying dimension of the narrative.


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## Harzmusic (Sep 28, 2017)

Right now I'm analyzing Daniel Licht's (RIP) score for Dexter for an assignment.
Turns out, he has some pretty strong underscore leitmotifs and sounds for certain storylines, and also a variety of more general cues and underscore music, that doesn't point to any specific character. He doesn't overuse the character themes and doesn't make them too obvious.
In Season 4, the only character, that really gets constant leitmotif treatment is the trinity killer - and he has three different little themes, that are linked to him. And still they don't always appear prominently when he is on screen. Also Licht links certain prepared piano sounds to him, that only appear with him, so every sequence with the trinity killer is in it's very own sonic world.
Still there are recurring cues for a certain romance, and multiple recurring melodies linked to the main character observing the world. But there's a lot of one-note underscory rhythm-thingys completely devoid of any themes.

I think, that's a very smart way of using a variation of the technique without being too cheesy or obvious.
It is one of many possible methods to make a score - and you can distribute freely, just how much % of the music is non specific, and how much links to certain characters. And there's a loooot of completely deplorable music in every episode (more than 50% per episode) that just works without any meaning.


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## Darren Durann (Sep 28, 2017)

The changeover from Late Romantically (Wagner) trained film composers in the 20th century to the one finger patch composers in the 21st is becoming more and more obvious, and I'm thinking today's relative sparsity of the leitmotif might have to do with a genre-wide rebellion against the Golden age of film scoring. I mean, we're working on something like 125 years since Wagner, and the much younger generations naturally have a rebellious streak (such a term could absolutely be replaced with "creative originality" if that is your wont).

I think in a way it's a really good thing, because we can't just have* El Cid* and *Vertigo* churned out forever, it would make film scores in general even more boring than the synth-fart dominated action figure state of the art today (that said, give me those two scores and films over anything put out this century).

A little off topic, and sorry in advance: I think that more than a little of what many people call minimalistic and homophonic today is that way out of necessity...with the libraries today one could conceivably know just the bare basics of harmony and modulation and still possibly make money in the music world. Same with the Leitmotif: not only is it considered archaic (keep in mind, JS Bach's music was considered archaic for decades after his death), but due to the advances in technology it really isn't imperative (going for a bare effect in a film from a musical perspective has never been anywhere near as easy or crucial as it is today's superhero Kultur); plus, using motifs might make people think too much (making movies that beg the viewer's undivided attention today is most often bad box office...not that that is strikingly different from the past, it's just more prevalent).

Just my thoughts.


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## JohnG (Oct 11, 2017)

I understand your points, but are you being a bit harsh, DD?

There are any number of reasons why composers avoid "book learnin" when scoring today.

It's not just ignorance or laziness on the composers' part. Some producers and directors have never attended an orchestral concert. To them, anything that modulates or features woodwinds conjures Mozart. One producer told me a demo was "too orchestral," by which she clearly meant, "not contemporary/ old fashioned/ boring/ etc." Took out the winds and -- approved!

And she was correct that it sounded more_ au courant_ without the winds.

Some directors don't want melodies at all; some hate the piano or the clarinet or something; often what they seem to want could be described as "orchestra mimicking electric guitar band." Forget modulation or traditional development.

Then there's time. I read that Herrmann had 12 weeks to score "Citizen Kane." Today, as you may know, it's routine to schedule only three or four weeks to score a movie, sometimes with the composer expected to execute most or all of the score, provide perfect-sounding mockups, orchestrate , arrange a recording and players. Sometimes, given the budget, the composer may even copy parts. Under such constraints, one has no time to experiment. There's barely enough to try guessing what they want.

Plus, you hear all the time on films of composers being fired if the don't like the first thing they hear. Which can discourage experimentation.

And, finally, artistic choices. John Carpenter likens his own scores as "carpet" for his movies. I think he is implying that the music is not intended, most of the time, to call attention to itself AT ALL.

There's an apocryphal story about Wozzeck that bears here too.

I've studied a lot over the years, trying to learn a few particles of what the greats invented, but sometimes all they want is a few minor-mode gestures over a drone. It's their picture, not mine.

I reread your post, DD; maybe we're saying the same thing.


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## Darren Durann (Oct 11, 2017)

JohnG said:


> I understand your points, but are you being a bit harsh, DD?
> 
> 
> 
> I reread your post, DD; maybe we're saying the same thing.



We are basically saying the same thing, but I think a) my post could have been construed as unnecessarily cynical and b) your post is way better than mine.


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## lux (Oct 11, 2017)

I don't think I've ever been asked how I like paintings to look like color-wise, or which themes I wanted illustrated and how, when entering an exhibition or a gallery. Wondering what people care of an artistic product which is not yet created is the best way to stop creating anything.

There are things that cannot be asked to an audience. That's what people in the industry coming from different businesses don't get when it comes to the entertainment industry.

I bet if you asked people, expecially kids if they wanted a celesta theme for the owl of a movie, and explained them that celesta is typically used in classical orchestras you'd got a lot of "that's just good for my grandpa, don't even think about it, I just dont like it". People loved the celesta theme, kids, adults, and everyone still does today.

Leimotives are nice, assumed the movie and the characters have enough depth and there's overall place in the story. People will care if the result is great, and will like the movie as a whole. Otherwise they will just don't care. People will also love when leitmotives are absent, if the whole is great. Just let's not try to wonder if they care or not.

Trying to anticipate every aspect people may like in a potential creation sounds to me like the apocalypse of all arts.


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## JohnG (Oct 11, 2017)

lux said:


> Trying to anticipate every aspect people may like in a potential creation sounds to me like the apocalypse of all arts



Your point would explain a lot about the mediocrity we experience all the time. 

Movies cost too much to release now to take a chance on a truly niche film, whose success depends on subtlety of character and nuanced dialogue. When it's $20 million, or $50, or $100 just for advertising and promotion, and 80% of revenue comes from outside N America, idiosyncratic films break the bank. 

If we want to see experimental fare, it's out there, but not in theatres for the most part. It's on tv or HBO or similar. "Endeavour," for example, or that Hannibal Lechter series with Mads Mikkelsen -- amazing visual imagery. Stunning, I thought. 

"Arrival" or "Philomena" are exceptions -- films that are about something beyond the glandular -- but they are scarce.


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## Darren Durann (Oct 11, 2017)

JohnG said:


> Your point would explain a lot about the mediocrity we experience all the time.
> 
> Movies cost too much to release now to take a chance on a truly niche film, whose success depends on subtlety of character and nuanced dialogue. When it's $20 million, or $50, or $100 just for advertising and promotion, and 80% of revenue comes from outside N America, idiosyncratic films break the bank.
> 
> ...



I dare put "Dark Knight" out there.

I dream of scoring a Hitchcock/Herrmann-ian thriller, personally. Making something like that would be a dream beyond any amount of cash. But the best of that lot: Vertigo, Psycho, North By Northwest, involve what JohnG might have at least peripherally meant by niche; that is, using the music to fill in what the images can't, such as providing what the feelings of the character are...said feelings portrayed as opposed to and/or intensified by the music. Thus making the film a far more personal experience for the listener.

The last isn't exactly extinct today; since Hans Zimmer is a (perfectly understandable) popular figure here, how about taking the music out of the scenes in "Interstellar" involving the protagonist's relationship with his daughter. The music makes it both far more powerful, and at times reveals secrets the two characters are trying to suppress.

There's not as much of that today (which in my opinion elevates film to art, and I don't care how pretentious that sounds). But it's there. I honestly haven't given up completely.


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