# [spoilers] Lost's Final Episode... [spoilers]



## Ed (May 26, 2010)

Lost's final episode... seriously.... WTF... its like they actively tried to make it make as little sense and be as self contradictory as possible.

Way to fuck up a great series guys. Its a tragedy of TV film making, it will go down in history I'm sure.


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## José Herring (May 26, 2010)

They all died sooner or later in time and they all went to heaven. 

What's so hard to understand?


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## misterbee (May 26, 2010)

I thought it was garbage. But then again I think it's been a little weird since season 3. 
Only kept watching for the babes.


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## handz (May 26, 2010)

After first season it was only layered crap, i was still waiting for some resolution of the plot that answers all thise questions but this scenarist on speed one does not satisfies me.


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## José Herring (May 26, 2010)

Yeah. I think I dropped about 3 or 4 seasons. Then I picked it up for season 7. So I had no idea what was ever happening or why. But in the end it didn't mater.


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## Ed (May 26, 2010)

josejherring @ Wed May 26 said:


> They all died sooner or later in time and they all went to heaven.
> 
> What's so hard to understand?



Im looking a little deeper than that simple understanding...

The whole side flash purgatory thing has no relation to the island at all, and yet so much more of it made no sense even ignoring that... For one example with Jacobs backstory episode they even managed to contract the start of Season 5, which now simply isn't possible to fit anywhere. What about Desmond? Why did Jacob bring him back to the island? Jack didnt even die when he put the light plug rock thing back in (he died from the knife wound), so what good was Desmond? Useless! Jacobs brother (in Locke's body) just dies so easily afterwards and we still had no idea what he really was, how he got turned into smokey (considering Hurley didn't) after going into the light cave, and what would really have happened if he did leave. I also wonder why Jack and Hurley not show any sign of having any special powers yet Jacob could do practically whatever he liked.

They explained absolutely nothing and spent an entire Season setting up these side flashes that had the revelation of "they are all dead" had no relation at all to anything.

Any defence of this story is just ignoring saying what this is: bad writing. They made it up as they went along, we knew that, but what amazes me is that from Season 4 they had a chance to sort it out since they knew they were going to end it in Season 6, yet they still managed to mess it up.


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## Mike Greene (May 26, 2010)

I loved the finale. Jack's dad pretty much explained everything. Some people are dead (the ones we already know are dead) and many won't die for a long time. I thought it was pretty straightforward.


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## Ed (May 26, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Wed May 26 said:


> I loved the finale. Jack's dad pretty much explained everything. Some people are dead (the ones we already know are dead) and many won't die for a long time. I thought it was pretty straightforward.



So the entire island was purgatory or what? Because that also makes no sense. What was Jacob doing there? What was the island and why did they have to protect it? etc etc etc

If they died in the main story line in Season 6, and then after they went to this purgatory thing we see in the side flashes that only makes us ask what relation that has to the island at all. If they had set that up as some kind of possibility okay, but they didn't.

Its just completely ridiculous, the only way to defend it is like some kind of religion defending its contradictory full of crap holy books.


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## midphase (May 26, 2010)

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291


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## José Herring (May 26, 2010)

Ed @ Wed May 26 said:


> josejherring @ Wed May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > They all died sooner or later in time and they all went to heaven.
> ...



Looking a little deeper into a fantasy tv show. Wow. What makes fantasy a fantasy is that it doesn't have to make sense. It's called make believe.


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## Ed (May 26, 2010)

midphase @ Wed May 26 said:


> http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291




hahaha to name but a few!! :lol: :lol:


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## Ed (May 26, 2010)

josejherring @ Wed May 26 said:


> Ed @ Wed May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Wed May 26 said:
> ...



I dont care if the entire thing had a supernatural explanation but the fact is that even that in itself has to be consistent with itself and this simply is so inconsistent that even supernatural explanations make no sense!

Saying you are making a fantasy show is no excuse for not having any continuity and making up whatever you damn well feel like.

If you dont care thats great, but it means that 90% of what you saw in the episodes was completely redundant and pointless. Is that how you watch TV? I sure don't.

Look at Dexter, now thats a well designed and well thought out show. Season 1 and 2 had a story arc that ended in Season 2. Season 3 was more or less completely self contained and Season 4 was also self contained with a helleva cliffhanger leading to Season 5. Everything makes sense, you know that everything you see is there for a reason. With Lost you are *told *everything was happening for a reason, but really *none *of it was, and in the final episode they made the entire thing make even less fraking sense.

I didnt expect them or think they should have answered everyones questions, but to ruin the mystery and fail to answer the questions AND contradict a pivotal scene (with Jacob) you wrote only one season earlier AND say they all die and go to purgatory when NOTHING in the entire series suggests that idea makes sense then I sure as hell think they screwed up. The mysteries they kept giving us for all these years was just a marketing ploy to keep us watching.

Lost is now an illogical mess of random things happening for no reason with contradictory plot holes.


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## Freds (May 26, 2010)

I thought that as a science fiction show the ending was very disappointing, but as a dramatic show (maybe even a fantasy show) it was fantastic. They handled the emotional side of the show really great.

All the main characters get a great resolution and closure in a really well told episode. The way they remember their lives and how they died and how everything made sense to them was great. 

It had some problems, but also some really great things like when Hurly tells Ben "you were a great #2". It means so many things. That was the main thing that drove Ben to kill Jacob and to do what he did: not being able to be a #2 and always getting ignored and neglected by Jacob.

I thought there were a lot of nice touches...

I agree that I would like to see some more explanations to the mythology, but a big part of the show was about the characters and that was incredible well handled.


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## Ed (May 26, 2010)

Freds @ Wed May 26 said:


> I thought that as a science fiction show the ending was very disappointing, but as a dramatic show (maybe even a fantasy show) it was fantastic. They handled the emotional side of the show really great.



It was brilliantly acted, well shot, great music etc. 

Yes it was a great final episode... so long as you ignore absolutely all context and all details. 

To me its like they just killed everyone off and said, there sukhas there's yo mother fukin ending! Oh you want answers? whatever your question... it was magic ..or a dream ... or something... they all died, whatever!! NEXT SHOW PLEASE!


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## José Herring (May 26, 2010)

Well I heard a JJ Abrahms interview where he stated that he was just making it up as he went along. So the fact that the final episode didn't tie up all the lose ends made sense to me. It even makes more sense if you consider the fact that they all died on the plane crash and that the island was some sort of purgatory. But that would be reading way too much into a show made up purely for entertainment purposes. That's what I liked about it. They just went with the moment.


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## José Herring (May 26, 2010)

Midphase. It's a damn tv show. As Aaron Spelling put it "mind bubble gum". It's not the next ET.

I don't know what kind of religious experience you were trying to get from Lost. I kind of put Lost on the Buffy the Vampire Slayer level and just sat back and enjoyed the show to get my mind off of stuff.

Jeez guys.

Jose


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## midphase (May 26, 2010)

I dunno Jose...have you checked all the discussions going on on various forums and coolers about Lost? One would think it is some kind of a religious experience for many.

We're not talking Love Boat here, this was an overarching storyline spanning several years.

I do commend you on keeping an emotional and psychological distance from it and taking it with the same approach as a show like Two and a Half Men.


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## José Herring (May 26, 2010)

Everybody is talking about it. That's the point. The human race loves a mystery. But if you look closely at mystery and dissect them for what they are. You'll find at the bottom nothing. Kind of like those books The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Everybody chasing after the meaning of "42" or something. In the end they revealed the mystery. The question of course was "what do you get when you multiply 6x7?". 

So Lost pulls the old gag of it's all about heading into the light. What did people expect that JJ Abrahms and writers have some sort of secret knowledge to the universe that normal people don't already have? 

I'll leave with a little quibble and give you a little secret. It's the long lost secret of the universe. It's the secret that defines secrets. And that secret is.......there are no secrets.

Expecting that Lost had some sort of deep meaning is just expecting way too much. It's show bizz.

Oh and btw I've never seen 2 and 1/2 men. So I don't know what point you're trying to make. But I did love me some Buffy back in the day. I thought that show was silly too. But, I loved all 7 season of the ass kicking cute vamp slayer. (It also had one of the best last episodes of all time imo. They really did bring it all together)

Any how. Off to watch CSI.


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## midphase (May 27, 2010)

"What did people expect that JJ Abrahms and writers have some sort of secret knowledge to the universe that normal people don't already have?"

No, but how about some basic narrative skills?

I don't think that compelling TV and smart and well thought out stories are mutually exclusive.

Wanna watch a TV series with a great narrative arc, well fleshed out characters, and a story that wasn't being made up as it went along? Watch The Shield.


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## Alex W (May 27, 2010)

Yeah I was so disappointed with the ending too. The final season started out ok, I thought it was heading towards an ending where the characters on the island would all have to sacrifice their own life so that the parallel version of themselves could survive or whatever.

I would've been ok with an ending like that. Hell I would've been ok if it was aliens. But instead it turns into some sappy sentimental afterlife crap, while the island and most of its mysteries remain unexplained. What the hell? I stuck out 6 seasons for this? This was seriously almost as bad as the x-files finale.


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## Ian Dorsch (May 27, 2010)

FWIW, I liked the finale.


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## Ed (May 27, 2010)

PS: I had to make this thread to get all that out of my system 

PPS: Ian that gif is lol


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## choc0thrax (May 27, 2010)

This is what you guys get for watching the finale to a show that died years ago. o/~


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## handz (May 27, 2010)

amen


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## Ed (May 27, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Thu May 27 said:


> This is what you guys get for watching the finale to a show that died years ago. o/~



I had faith choco! I had faith! :D

Still, even in Season 6 they could have saved a decent ending, even though it got so ridiculously convoluted in the last few years.

It actually boggles my mind. Who cares about continuity and contradictions anyway? So long as it looks cool! lol


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## Mike Greene (May 27, 2010)

Ed @ Wed May 26 said:


> Mike Greene @ Wed May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I loved the finale. Jack's dad pretty much explained everything. Some people are dead (the ones we already know are dead) and many won't die for a long time. I thought it was pretty straightforward.
> ...


No. The island was real. That's the *main* universe.

The flash sideways universe is secondary. Otherwise there would be no purpose to the reunion of our heroes in this flash sideways universe (why reunite with people you only met in a dream?)

Since the island story is the main story/universe, then Hurley, Kate, Sawyer, etc are still alive. Jack, Locke and others are dead in the main universe, but still live in various sideways universes. Purgatory or heaven or any of that doesn't exist in this show, at least not to my recollection.

To me, the finale was very, very straightforward. I don't think the writers were trying to inject any new twists or mysteries, and as long as you watched the finale with that mindset, everything seems to make sense to me. But with that said, Ian's gif is hysterical. :mrgreen: 

I'm not sure what the Jacob contradiction is that you're talking about, though.


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## KingIdiot (May 27, 2010)

emotionally satisfying yes, for the most part...

was the narrative, IMO no.

I went in, knowing this would be the case though. Somewhere around season 3 I realized they were full of shit when they said they "knew how it would end", they may have had an idea, jsut like Mathew fox, what the last scene would be, but they had no idea what would get them there. I did, have a smidgen of hope during season 4 when all the time travel started happening. I thought to myself that there could be some really interesting things that push the story into an amazing, well thought out place... then they started kiling characters with no resolution again and cheesing their way out of setups, and I gave up.

I had a love/hate relationship with the show. I found it to be THE MOST manipulative TV show ever created. The flashback/forward/sideways/limbo plot device is more evil than any "8 hours earlier" device that TV series use. The fact that it was 6 years of that crap..well 5 years of that crap then 1 year of "WTF?!", and this finale makes me a bit frustrated. It's like constant hanging of a carrot in your face, dipping it closer, then pulling it out further, and only finding out, that ooooohhh your legs are stronger, and you got alot of excersize which is the point... but the carrot isn't all that tasty... in fact it's kinda more like cheese.


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## KingIdiot (May 27, 2010)

Oh and Ed

watch Breaking Bad. Amazing show, with an over all arc through the seasons. That and Dex are my faves on TV right now.


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## José Herring (May 27, 2010)

That's what fantasy is all about. In sci-fi you have to have some sort of scientific explanation for everything. In fantasy no.

But i'm like Mike. I thought the whole ending was really straightforward so I have a hard time trying to figure out what's contradictory.

They destroyed the idea of time in the show so it didn't have to be linear. That's where the fantasy comes in and gave the writers a lot of flexibility with reality.

I know the religious overtones are eating away at you Ed. But, turns out the show was all about fate, faith and redemption. Would you expect anything less from us Americans? :mrgreen:


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## choc0thrax (May 27, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Thu May 27 said:


> Oh and Ed
> 
> watch Breaking Bad. Amazing show, with an over all arc through the seasons. That and Dex are my faves on TV right now.



Those are my two favourite shows as well. We may in fact be soul mates.


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## Freds (May 27, 2010)

Ed @ Wed May 26 said:


> Freds @ Wed May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I thought that as a science fiction show the ending was very disappointing, but as a dramatic show (maybe even a fantasy show) it was fantastic. They handled the emotional side of the show really great.
> ...



No, I'm not talking about the craftsmanship side of things (music, acting, well shot, etc) I'm talking about the emotional side of the show. 

That for me was very well done. I bet lots of people here shaded a few tears on this episode (even though film composers tend to be "a little bit" cynic! :wink: ). They wrote so well that you really care for the characters.

For me it was already obvious (for a couple of seasons ago) that there couldn't be a resolution that explained everything about the mythology and they "improvised" a few things with the writing. Not sure why people feel so disappointed, we saw this coming! I's Lost after all...

Anyway, the main thing they accomplished was closure for the characters and that was VERY cool.


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## KingIdiot (May 27, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Thu May 27 said:


> KingIdiot @ Thu May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh and Ed
> ...




no I'm just you after someone turned some damn donkey wheel





Mike:

watch it,

I actually like it better than Dexter overall. As amazing as Michael C Hall is in Dex, he has to carry the show. In BB, there's a ton of fine acting all over. Season 4 of Dex was amazing because of the play between Hall and Lithgow. I am having low expectations for 5. BB has only really been getting better every ep. EVERY Episode is consistently good. Truly one of the best shows on TV IMHO.


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## gsilbers (May 27, 2010)

Oh. Man don't spoil it!! I just started wathing season 6 and I'm getting PAID for it!!!
Nice eh  

I had to watch season 5 (1st time watching lost) as well and no pun intended I was lost .... 
I kinda get it but so much time traveling and jumps in storyline... 
And i had to watch each episode like 5 times...
I guess now i have to rent th previous seasons and see what's going on.

IMO I didn't like it that much. Music is great. 
But I like way more fringe. To bad Im not getting paid to watch that series, I've missed a lot of eps.


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## gregjazz (May 27, 2010)

I think it's funny that so many fans misinterpreted the ending. I'll admit, at first I was confused, but then I realized it the next day.

The characters died in the Island timeline, not the REAL timeline (which was portrayed as the flash sideways, showing them successfully land in LA in flight 815).

In this real timeline, the only main character that died was Christian. The scene in the church shows Christian leaving into the light. All the other characters are still alive, and left to their new-found friendships and families. That was the whole point of the scene!

The entire island timeline happened in that split second where the plane could have crashed, but didn't.


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## choc0thrax (May 27, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Thu May 27 said:


> choc0thrax @ Thu May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > KingIdiot @ Thu May 27 said:
> ...



Same here!


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## KingIdiot (May 27, 2010)

gregjazz @ Thu May 27 said:


> I think it's funny that so many fans misinterpreted the ending. I'll admit, at first I was confused, but then I realized it the next day.
> 
> The characters died in the Island timeline, not the REAL timeline (which was portrayed as the flash sideways, showing them successfully land in LA in flight 815).
> 
> ...




uh... while I am all for the idea that we should all take whatever we want from what the show gave us....

I strongly recommend you watch that finale again. Especially since you're suggesting most everyone ELSE got it wrong....


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## Ed (May 27, 2010)

gregjazz @ Thu May 27 said:


> In this real timeline, the only main character that died was Christian. The scene in the church shows Christian leaving into the light. All the other characters are still alive, and left to their new-found friendships and families. That was the whole point of the scene!
> 
> The entire island timeline happened in that split second where the plane could have crashed, but didn't.[/quote:ee478òÏÔ   Ô»–ÏÔ   Ô»—ÏÔ   Ô»˜ÏÔ   Ô»™ÏÔ   Ô»šÏÔ   Ô»›ÏÔ   Ô»œÏÔ   Ô»ÏÔ   Ô»žÏÔ   Ô»ŸÏÔ   Ô» ÏÔ   Ô»¡ÏÔ   Ô»¢ÏÔ   Ô»£ÏÔ   Ô»¤ÏÔ   Ô»¥ÏÔ   Ô»¦ÏÔ   Ô»§ÏÔ   Ô»¨ÏÔ   Ô»©ÏÔ   Ô»ªÏÔ   Ô»«ÏÔ   Ô»¬ÏÔ   Ô»­ÏÔ   Ô»®ÏÔ   Ô»¯ÏÔ   Ô»°ÏÔ   Ô»±ÏÔ   Ô»²ÏÔ   Ô»³ÏÔ   Ô»´ÏÔ   Ô»µÏÔ   Ô»¶ÏÔ   Ô»·ÏÔ   Ô»¸ÏÔ   Ô»¹ÏÔ   Ô»ºÏÔ   Ô»»ÏÔ   Ô»¼ÏÔ   Ô»½ÏÕ   Ô»¾ÏÕ   Ô»¿ÏÕ   Ô»ÀÏÕ   Ô»ÁÏÕ   Ô»ÂÏÕ   Ô»ÃÏÕ   Ô»ÄÏÕ   Ô»ÅÏÕ   Ô»ÆÏÕ   Ô»ÇÏÖ   Ô»ÈÏÖ   Ô»ÉÏÖ   Ô»ÊÏÖ   Ô»ËÏÖ   Ô»ÌÏÖ   Ô»ÍÏÖ   Ô»ÎÏÖ   Ô»ÏÏÖ   Ô»ÐÏÖ   Ô»ÑÏÖ   Ô»ÒÏÖ   Ô»ÓÏÖ   Ô»ÔÏÖ   Ô»ÕÏÖ   Ô»ÖÏÖ   Ô»×ÏÖ   Ô»ØÏÖ   Ô»ÙÏÖ   Ô»ÚÏÖ   Ô»ÛÏÖ   Ô»ÜÏÖ   Ô»ÝÏÖ   Ô»ÞÏÖ   Ô»ßÏÖ   Ô»àÏÖ   Ô»áÏÖ   Ô»âÏÖ   Ô»ãÏÖ   Ô»äÏÖ   Ô»åÏÖ   Ô»æÏÖ   Ô»çÏÖ   Ô»èÏÖ   Ô»éÏÖ   Ô»êÏÖ   Ô»ëÏÖ   Ô»ìÏÖ   Ô»íÏÖ   Ô»îÏÖ   Ô»ïÏÖ   Ô»ðÏÖ   Ô»ñÏÖ   Ô»òÏÖ   Ô»óÏÖ   Ô»ôÏÖ   Ô»õÏÖ   Ô»öÏÖ   Ô»÷ÏÖ   Ô»øÏÖ   Ô»ùÏÖ   Ô»úÏÖ   Ô»ûÏÖ   Ô»üÏÖ   Ô»ýÏÖ   Ô»þÏÖ   Ô»ÿÏÖ   Ô¼ ÏÖ   Ô¼ÏÖ   Ô¼ÏÖ   Ô¼ÏÖ   Ô¼ÏÖ   Ô¼              òÏÖ   Ô¼ÏÖ   Ô¼ÏÖ   Ô¼	ÏÖ   Ô¼
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## Ed (May 27, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Thu May 27 said:


> KingIdiot @ Thu May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > choc0thrax @ Thu May 27 said:
> ...



I'll have to check out Breaking Bad!

To say its better than Dexter is a real compliment! :D


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## rJames (May 27, 2010)

gregjazz @ Thu May 27 said:


> I think it's funny that so many fans misinterpreted the ending. I'll admit, at first I was confused, but then I realized it the next day.
> 
> The characters died in the Island timeline, not the REAL timeline (which was portrayed as the flash sideways, showing them successfully land in LA in flight 815).
> 
> ...



Greg, to me, the real timeline was the crash timeline. They died but couldn't move on cause as we all know from other TV shows, books and movies; sometimes you can't move on if your life ends abruptly and violently. (that is the myth isn't it?) 

If the timeline where they landed safely had been the "real" timeline, then they could not "wake up," by intimately touching their true love.

And they made a pact to meet up at the funeral when they were all dead.

But in any case, I agree with many of you who say it was an unsatisfying ending.

Maybe you have to touch that golden light to find out that you're in purgatory. Desmond touched it and helped everyone else remember their "Lost" experiences.


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## PasiP (May 27, 2010)

This might not be real as some of the comments point out but this in my opinion sums up the serie pretty good.

Insight from a production member


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## Ed (May 27, 2010)

PasiP @ Thu May 27 said:


> This might not be real as some of the comments point out but this in my opinion sums up the serie pretty good.
> 
> Insight from a production member



Yes, well whether if was from someone who actually did work for Bad Robot its still ridiculous...

For example:



> "*It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning*. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment. "



What a load of crap.

1. It doesnt fit in the whole tone of the show at all since for basically right up until the end the whole idea that you create your own purgatory or eternal life partners is only revealed to be possible in the final part of the final episode. If this had been set up prior to this it wouldnt be so bad, but it wasn't, it was completely random because they felt it would be a nice idea. How sweet but ultimately nonsensical.

2. 

I love this bit:



> But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later.




Wait... what? What's this "sideways world"? This is a place where the dead can live with the living? No, just call it what it is, a form of purgatory. Everyone is dead there, or just imaginary. But you atone for your sins in purgatory not in life, that's why there were a load of worse people in that "sideways world" than Michael. But Michael can't leave the island? And if Michael is dead... but not in purgatory... then where is he? Why does he have to be there and others not? And if thats what it means when Hurley can see people... what about when Hurley saw Anna Lucia or Charlie? 

And then he says "Just like the MIB"... wait... what?! How is Michael being stuck on the island "just like" the MIB being stuck on the island? The MIB wanted to leave the island but wasn't allowed because he was made into smokey and he was evil or something. Remember, we are told that if the MIB leaves the island the whole world is destroyed.. or something like that. Before the MIB was changed into smokey he had no special powers, the reason he couldnt kill Jacob was supposed to be because that women who killed their real mother just made it like that because her island-caretaker powers allowed her to. What the hell has that got to do with Michael?

And I want you to remember when he says "_Because he [Michael] had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. "_

3. He says:



> _"It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning.* These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. **They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen.* The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment. _



So there was no free will, everything really was pre-destined. The universe or god wanted it that way and so it was.

... but... that means Michael *didn't* have a choice, so how can he "fail" a test he was destined to fail at? How can this guy really talk about someone's free will that has essentially "damned" them and then go straight on to talk about how it was all pre-determined by a god or the force of the universe and not see that's a contradiction? You cant have it both ways! 

His explanation of the main storyline isn't as bad in terms of very general consistency (ignoring the fact that none of it is explained at all) but I had already figured that was their main idea before, even though it ruins everything and makes things make no sense, however the side flashes have to be the dumbest illogical ideas I've heard.

It wouldnt surprise me if he did work for them, its such an incoherent mess. There's so much more wrong it that Im not even talking about here, such as Desmond's role in the final episode not making any sense.

I also like the comment by the blog poster about one part of it...



> > the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. .
> 
> 
> 
> It's proabably worth pointing out that Juliet was in the church, and not in season 1, so this could all be a big steaming pile of BS.



Yes, indeed. Though it is a steaming pile of BS however way you try and make it make sense.


----------



## Ed (May 27, 2010)

rJames @ Thu May 27 said:


> gregjazz @ Thu May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's funny that so many fans misinterpreted the ending. I'll admit, at first I was confused, but then I realized it the next day.
> ...



If you're saying what I think you are saying the problem is in the sideways flashes world in Season 6, at the end of the final episode Christian says to Jack the reason they are there is because they had the best experiences with these people when they were alive. But they only knew each other on the island, so they can't have been dead when they were there or it makes Christian's speech make 100% no sense at all. Thats why the sideways flashes world in Season 6 was purgatory and the rest HAD to be real.

If you arent saying that ignore this, but its worth saying anyway since so many people seem to think suggesting they were dead all along on the island makes sense.


----------



## Mike Greene (May 27, 2010)

Ed @ Thu May 27 said:


> The Jacob contradiction is between Season 6's "Across The Sea" episode 15 and start of the final episode of Season 5. This scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSkcIABWzS4 Now if you watch this scene and then watch the episode in Season 6 where we get Jacob and the "Man in Black"'s backstory there is now absolutely no way - continuity wise - to make this scene at the opening to the final of Season 5 fit in the timeline anymore. It just cant fit and it requires some serious mental gymnastics to even try and imagine it can.


My assumption after the Jacob/MIB backstory was that the smoke monster was MIB. The physical body of MIB was dead, but since smoke monster can assume a dead person's form (as we saw with Locke,) he assumed the form of himself/MIB. I do wish they had spelled this out at some point, but it seems the obvious explanation and that's what I thought long before the finale.

FWIW, if I'm wrong, that would be an ENORMOUS oversight for the writers to have forgotten that scene you linked, since they referred to it again at least once in this last season. I can't imagine they're that stupid to forget something like that.

One other thought: I wouldn't be surprised if my explanation/guess is a "deleted scene." I bought the first season DVDs (I came to the show late) and they had a bunch of deleted scenes on it that were left out presumably because the shows could only be 43 minutes. I was amazed at how many of these scenes were actually fairly crucial to the plot and have wondered ever since what little tidbits I might be missing by watching the shorter televised versions.


----------



## Ed (May 27, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Thu May 27 said:


> My assumption after the Jacob/MIB backstory was that the smoke monster was MIB. The physical body of MIB was dead, but since smoke monster can assume a dead person's form (as we saw with Locke,) he assumed the form of himself/MIB. I do wish they had spelled this out at some point, but it seems the obvious explanation and that's what I thought long before the finale.
> 
> FWIW, if I'm wrong, that would be an ENORMOUS oversight for the writers to have forgotten that scene you linked, since they referred to it again at least once in this last season. I can't imagine they're that stupid to forget something like that.



I can totally believe that they forgot about it, think about how much material they have created over the years all parts they are meant to try and tie together.

What you said does make sense and that is probably how its meant to be. I guess again its down to poor storytelling, they should have used the actor more in showing us that was the case aside from those few scenes. They had him for the Jacob/MIB backstory so why not? Plenty of occasions to do it. Smokey seemed to be quite metaphysical as Smokey UNTIL he got Loke's body. I know he would become various people but not once his actual self? I just find it lazy... Anyways that's hardly the worst offender, if it was just that it would be fine.

I do think its a critical question to ask why he needed Lock's body so badly in the first place when plenty of others had died on the island... oh its because Lock came back to the island after dying? How does that make sense? What about Jack's father, Christian Shepard? Oh yes he vanished, was there ever an explanation for that? Oh right... it was magic or something, no need to come up with an explanation. 



> One other thought: I wouldn't be surprised if my explanation/guess is a "deleted scene." I bought the first season DVDs (I came to the show late) and they had a bunch of deleted scenes on it that were left out presumably because the shows could only be 43 minutes. I was amazed at how many of these scenes were actually fairly crucial to the plot and have wondered ever since what little tidbits I might be missing by watching the shorter televised versions.



It would be interesting if any deleted scenes made the final make more sense.


----------



## KingIdiot (May 27, 2010)

Mike Greene @ Thu May 27 said:


> Ed @ Thu May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > The Jacob contradiction is between Season 6's "Across The Sea" episode 15 and start of the final episode of Season 5. This scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSkcIABWzS4 Now if you watch this scene and then watch the episode in Season 6 where we get Jacob and the "Man in Black"'s backstory there is now absolutely no way - continuity wise - to make this scene at the opening to the final of Season 5 fit in the timeline anymore. It just cant fit and it requires some serious mental gymnastics to even try and imagine it can.


My assumption after the Jacob/MIB backstory was that the smoke monster was MIB. The physical body of MIB was dead, but since smoke monster can assume a dead person's form (as we saw with Locke,) he assumed the form of himself/MIB. I do wish they had spelled this out at some point, but it seems the obvious explanation and that's what I thought long before the finale.

FWIW, if I'm wrong, that would be an ENORMOUS oversight for the writers to have forgotten that scene you linked, since they referred to it again at least once in this last season. I can't imagine they're that stupid to forget something like that.

One other thought: I wouldn't be surprised if my explanation/guess is a "deleted scene.&quotòÐ   ÔÌÇÐ   ÔÌÈÐ   ÔÌÉÐ   ÔÌÊÐ   ÔÌËÐ   ÔÌÌÐ   ÔÌÍÐ   ÔÌÎÐ   ÔÌÏÐ   ÔÌÐÐ   ÔÌÑÐ   ÔÌÒÐ   ÔÌÓÐ   ÔÌÔÐ   ÔÌÕÐ   ÔÌÖÐ   ÔÌ×Ð   ÔÌØÐ   ÔÌÙÐ   ÔÌÚÐ   ÔÌÛÐ   ÔÌÜÐ   ÔÌÝÐ   ÔÌÞÐ   ÔÌßÐ   ÔÌàÐ   ÔÌáÐ   ÔÌâÐ   ÔÌãÐ   ÔÌäÐ   ÔÌåÐ   ÔÌæÐ   ÔÌçÐ   ÔÌèÐ   ÔÌéÐ   ÔÌêÐ   ÔÌëÐ   ÔÌìÐ   ÔÌíÐ   ÔÌîÐ   ÔÌïÐ   ÔÌðÐ   ÔÌñÐ   ÔÌòÐ   ÔÌóÐ   ÔÌôÐ   ÔÌõÐ   ÔÌöÐ   ÔÌ÷Ð   ÔÌøÐ   ÔÌùÐ   ÔÌúÐ   ÔÌûÐ   ÔÌüÐ   ÔÌýÐ   ÔÌþÐ   ÔÌÿÐ   ÔÍ Ð   ÔÍÐ   ÔÍÐ   ÔÍÐ   ÔÍÐ   ÔÍÐ   ÔÍÐ   ÔÍÐ   ÔÍÐ   ÔÍ	Ð   ÔÍ
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----------



## Ed (May 27, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Thu May 27 said:


> This said.... the one big [email protected]#king problem I have with the show is why did Richards wife come to Hurly? why was she "trapped" on the Island, when she never made it to the island in the first place. She can't be a memory of Richard's like the horse from Kate (whic is me stretching things already), but WHY was she on the island talking to hurly? He can see dead people I get it... but he's only seen people who'd died on or near the island.
> 
> THAT is one of my biggest problems so far. I can really stretch my mind and make up rules that fit ambiguously, or sometimes strictly... but this one bothered the f#@k out of me.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this apart from letting them have a pass,  because of what they did with the final it basically ruins the whole show for me.


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## Ed (May 27, 2010)

KingIdiot @ Thu May 27 said:


> oh and for that matter, why can hurly talk to Charlie when he's "Dead" when he's moved on to the sideways universe which doesn't have a "when"... the when must be a lot later than the island time, otherwise Charlie wouldnt be able to come to Hurly in dead form...
> 
> fun paradoxes....
> 
> or [email protected]#king holes...



fucking holes...  you know its true. 

Battlestar had plot holes coming out its ass, but they could be forgiven (with the possible exception of The Plan...) because generally it had a consistent beginning middle and end where most of the important stuff made sense and the mysteries were allowed to remain mysteries instead of informing us of some random plot device right at the end that made creating your own answers almost impossible unless you ignore most of it.


----------



## Freds (May 27, 2010)

A pretty good synopsis of the show for those who are still lost:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HWECQa2 ... r_embedded


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## Ian Dorsch (May 28, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Fri May 28 said:


> Good stuff



This is basically how I feel about it. I don't have the time or energy to get into a debate about it, but I really don't have any complaints about the swiss-cheese-like holes in continuity or the retcons or whatever. It worked for me, in spite of its flaws.

Of course, it may just be that I have lower standards for my entertainment than you guys do. :lol:


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

Freds @ Thu May 27 said:


> A pretty good synopsis of the show for those who are still lost:
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HWECQa2 ... r_embedded



I stopped when he said we have been told that the light represents the light in all of us and represents human goodness.

edit: watched the whole thing... see below.


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

Maybe its because I think for example the "story arch" in something as revered as the Bible is a load of pointless nonsense as well. Big exciting events happen, like Jesus' death or Noah's flood, we are told its important but for no clear reason that makes any sense and where the whole free will vs destiny is incoherent and contradictory. You just have to check logic at the door and just have faith that it really does make sense when it clearly doesn't. 

So I assume that Lost should have some deeper meaning, but rather everything now seems pointless and when people like that guy in Freds video tries explaining it it seems like such a simplistic childish concept, where again all kinds of seemingly huge and important stuff happens and where the characters have all kinds of mad things happen to them and yet it all seems to be for no logical reason and now appears to be completely random and insignificant. It was magic and don't ask why, as the answer to every question just seems to be cop out, especially as we have been given so many science fiction type story lines in the show with an implied pattern or logic to it which now just vanishes in smoke (pun intended) The whole story seems one dimensional now, no deeper meaning in it. 

So maybe it really is about faith vs science, but the idea you must totally ignore science to understand Lost just pisses me off considering what they have given us for all these years. If it really must all be about faith, then don't try explaining anything, don't try and make out there is a scientific explanation. It just dumbs down something that is best left to the imagination. I love supernatural horror films if done correctly, but this is just a mess to me. As I say if they took the time in Season 6 to SET UP the concepts that they just showed us in the closing moments it would be quite different. I didn't want to be sitting there thinking it must be an alternative universe and then they show us the twist of "they are all dead! "

The reason why the supernatural explanation of the island is such a cop out is because it makes it so easy to explain away everything and not have to deal with ANY of the questions of "why". Its where all kinds of crazy shit can happen and you just have to ditch your brain and realise the writers believe they have given themselves a free pass to write whatever they hell they like. Ever seenthe ending to the Lost videogame? Case in point. It makes no sense and never will, it was magic or something, there was no deeper reason for it, thats all you need to know. The mysteries are left so unexplained and so broad that it actually makes the idea that we can come up with our own explanations extremely unsatisfying since there's so many holes to try and connect together. I agree with Midphase when he was talking about how you can only expect an audience to take a couple leaps of faith in a story.

Ah well.. I guess I have to find a new series. 

PS: Anyone notice that the pilot of Flash Forward stole so many ideas from the pilot of Lost? That wasn't "lost" on me (pun intended ha ha ha.)


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## Freds (May 28, 2010)

Ed @ Fri May 28 said:


> Freds @ Thu May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > A pretty good synopsis of the show for those who are still lost:
> ...



You first stopped watching because you don't agree with his interpretation? :? 
That's the whole point, there are many ways of interpreting the ending!

BTW I think that kids explains the basics pretty good. A lot of fans that were lost (yeah yeah no pun intended) would benefit from watching this and making some sense of the main ideas.


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

I watched it, as I said, see what I wrote above.

And I didnt like what he said at the start since I think he made that up.


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## José Herring (May 28, 2010)

I just think you need to watch "All Dogs Go to Heaven" and you'll be all right...jk

There are so many things in life that can't be explained away by science. I don't think that the show is a faith vs. science premise, but rather that life, death the human consciousness, spirit, soul choices of right and wrong aren't and can't and won't be encompassed by science as it's practiced right now here on Earth.

So philosophically people look at all that can't be understood and they say "God did it" and you get a whole mythology trying to explain that which man can't understand and that which science (for good reason) has completely neglected.

I don't blame scientist for neglecting some of the basic mysteries of life because pondering them for too long leads to absolute stagnation and no progress can be made. 

So death becomes a big mystery with so many contradicting accounts on what happens when we die and no readily available proof of any of it.

Lost is just following the general pattern that has been happening to mankind for 10,000 years. If you read past works of philosophy, fiction, fables, and religious text you'll see a similar pattern. Mankind gets close to some truth and then hits up squarely on stuff that can't be explained. I don't think the writers of Lost are any more brilliant than Kant, Socrates, or even Stephen Hawkings for that matter.


Looking for a rational explanation to everything is missing the point and most particularly the point of an artistic product. I don't know why listening to a Beethoven Symphony #6 moves me so much. I've analyzed that piece and know technically almost everything he did in it. But, I can't write anything near it. And, when I listening to it I often think that if God had written a piece of music it would go something like This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbFxVVLM2zc

Trust in your imagination. It's our greatest gift. Logic has it's place don't get me wrong. But where would we be as artist if it weren't for our brilliant imagination and all we relied on was Logic? The final Episode of Lost left holes. But, I cried, I laughed, it got me to think about things. All that is more important to me than whether, season 6 was consistent with season 7. Hell I don't even think I saw any of season 6.


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 28 said:


> All that is more important to me than whether, season 6 was consistent with season 7. Hell I don't even think I saw any of season 6.



There was no Season 7 of Lost...

And many of the reasons why it doesnt make sense is when you put it all together, if you havent seen all of it and dont care then you see stories very differently than i do. 

You literally said before that because its fantasy they can write whatever they like and it doesnt have to make any sense at all, random things can happen for no reason and we just have to go along with it because its all magic.


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## José Herring (May 28, 2010)

Ed @ Fri May 28 said:


> josejherring @ Fri May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > All that is more important to me than whether, season 6 was consistent with season 7. Hell I don't even think I saw any of season 6.
> ...



Magic? Don't recall saying that. What I meant to say is in Fantasy you have a lot of license to use your imagination. I didn't question how ET made it all the way to earth in a broken down station wagon looking space ship. I just enjoyed the show.


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 28 said:


> Magic? Don't recall saying that.



If its natural it can be explained by science, if its supernatural then its magic. When god created the world in Genesis he did so with nothing but magic words. When you see animals talking in the Bible, its just magic. 



> What I meant to say is in Fantasy you have a lot of license to use your imagination. I didn't question how ET made it all the way to earth in a broken down station wagon looking space ship. I just enjoyed the show.



But once again ET is consistent and only requires us to make only certain leaps of faith. Lost constantly told you events and elements of the story were significant and important when they were just ignored or the answer is just that "its mysterious" and that the important event is now rendered meaningless and completely unimportant. lost constantly said everything was happening for a reason, and now we see random stuff was just happening for no reason or for reasons that make no sense. 

Fantasy does not mean you can write whatever you like, it still has to make logical sense with itself.

Again I think we must see stories very differently.


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## José Herring (May 28, 2010)

"Again I think we must see stories very differently."

Not sure. I think more likely you're assuming things about me that aren't true. I don't disagree with your assessment. I just think you should have more fun in life and not take a tv show sooooo seriously.


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 28 said:


> "Again I think we must see stories very differently."
> 
> Not sure. I think more likely you're assuming things about me that aren't true. I don't disagree with your assessment. I just think you should have more fun in life and not take a tv show sooooo seriously.



I agree I should have more fun :D 

But I just have a higher standard when I look at stories. Maybe if someone had told me what Lost is about first then let me watch it I might have anticipated it and not been so annoyed with it.


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## José Herring (May 28, 2010)

Well I stopped watching in Season 3 because of the interview where JJ Abrahms stated that they are just kind of making it up with no real end game. But, this last season I just decided to go with the flow and see where it lead. I actually quite enjoyed it.

Funny thing was that Mike G.'s music changed up at the end. Softer more natural string sound. It sounded to me like he was running the strings through a really aggressive neve chain or something in the other episodes. Was it just me that noticed this?


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 28 said:


> Funny thing was that Mike G.'s music changed up at the end. Softer more natural string sound. It sounded to me like he was running the strings through a really aggressive neve chain or something in the other episodes. Was it just me that noticed this?



I cant speak for Season 6 since theres no soundtrack cd out yet... but lets compare Season 1 to Season 5:

Season 1 track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRYowiiAOhg

Season 5 track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDIAY83xtQ

Doesnt sound too different to me.


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## midphase (May 28, 2010)

josejherring @ Fri May 28 said:


> "Again I think we must see stories very differently."
> 
> Not sure. I think more likely you're assuming things about me that aren't true. I don't disagree with your assessment. I just think you should have more fun in life and not take a tv show sooooo seriously.



Jose,

Once again, I must take exception to this last statement. LOST is a show which specifically asked of its audience to be take seriously. LOST was not marketed as a sitcom, or a soap opera. It was marketed as something that sucks you in and becomes the focus of your weekly entertainment...and guess what? It worked! LOST was a huge success because people did take it seriously!

Now, concerning the whole "creative licenses" regarding fantasy styled entertainment, I think you're confusing logical story structure with realism, and the two can be very separate.

For example, I think we all can regard Lord of the Rings as a Fantasy novel and film. Do you think for one minute that when Tolkien was writing those books, he was making it up as he went along...only to haphazardly try to wrap things up in the last chapter? Therein lies the difference, Tolkien managed to create a wondrous and magical world, he established a set of rules that he followed to the letter from beginning to end (even if that would mean the demise of the main character), and gave his story such a well defined structure that everything had a logical explanation and conclusion. 

The difference is me improvising shit that sounds kinda cool with Symphobia and Beethoven...get it now?


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

Sometimes I really do agree with you Midphase.

Good one


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## midphase (May 28, 2010)

Even when we don't Ed...it's all done with love!


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## José Herring (May 28, 2010)

Well guys I must admit to you that I don't watch a lot of TV so I don't see commercials and I have no idea what the marketing was for this show. To me the show was just about pulling an emotional heart string so I wasn't expecting it to make that much sense. I just fell in love with the Korean couple and kind of just got all swept away in the love stuff and didn't care too much about the science of it all.

Sorry you were disappointed. And Midphase it was a good analogy. I get it.


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## Ed (May 28, 2010)

midphase @ Fri May 28 said:


> Even when we don't Ed...it's all done with love!



Even when we have a little fight its only an internet fight


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## gregjazz (May 28, 2010)

Ed @ Thu May 27 said:


> gregjazz @ Thu May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > In this real timeline, the only main character that died was Christian. The scene in the church shows Christian leaving into the light. All the other characters are still alive, and left to their new-found friendships and families. That was the whole point of the scene!
> ...



Yeah, I guess you're right about it. I think I had to make that explanation in my mind so I wouldn't be so disappointed about the ending, though, even if my explanation is obviously flawed.


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## Ed (May 29, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sat May 29 said:


> Ed @ Fri May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > When you see animals talking in the Bible, its just magic.
> ...



_"*The donkey said to Balaam*, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?" "No," he said. "

Numbers 22:30_

And of course, the talking snake...

But I could have also used other examples... just cue also all the "miracles" you can think of in the New Testament. Eg. Healing a man from spit (yes spit), raising the dead including people that crawled out of their graves and went wandering around Judea, water into wine, walking on water, feeding of the 5,000... or in the Old Testament food falling from the sky, women being changed into a pillar of salt, 5 plagues of Egypt, Moses parting the red sea. etc etc etc. 




> Also someone mentioned that JJ allegedly said in series 3 "we're making it up as we go along". Er, I think that quote is made up - anyone care to prove otherwise?



He said it in some interview, there have been a lot of interviews...



> I do agree with Ed on one point. The show's explanations were supernatural. To some people, that is no better than saying that they come out of Vincent's dreams. I fundamentally disagree about that point, or that we were ever led to presume an alternate, purely rational, outcome. Scientific endeavour was pursued within Lost and consistently failed.
> 
> I think people fall into two camps with how Lost winded up. Either faith is something that has no merit (or worse is downright dangerous) - if this is you, you will hate how Lost resolved. If you have some kind of faith (or are open to the possibility of a reality beyond scientific reductionism, which is probably how I'd classify myself these days), Lost worked brilliantly.



Its not really about if you have a religious faith or not, its about good storytelling. 

The idea that everything on the island can be explained away as magic is a get out of jail free card as an excuse for them to not have to explain a single one of their cliffhangers. Each week it seems they introduced some new mystery, but it was just to hook the viewer. Lost probably had more "mysteries" than any other story ever devised BECAUSE all they were trying to do each week is make more and more mysteries to pile on top of more mysteries. 

What is annoying is that they said through the whole thing everything was happening for a reason... but it wasnt, there was no reason. The island, Jacob, the MIB... the numbers... it was all nonsense. Their explanation they gave, as lacking as it was, actually made it worse for me because there was no deeper meaning behind it all. The smoke monster was just some pissed off guy who had been stuck there his whole life. Jacob had just got the job as the island protector from his murderous step mother. Who was she? We aren't told. What was the light? Something about "goodness"? And that's ALL WE GET! The entire backstory! What is this a child's fairy tale? Give me SOMETHING to imagine some deeper more intelligent reason behind all this please! Jacob brought people to the island because they weren't going anywhere in their lives... but he knew them from the start of their lives which meant he could see into the future? But then why did he act as if people had a choice? What was the reason for the time shifts, magic. What was the reason for how the island moved, magic. What relevance did Desmond have in the end considering he had been hyped up the entire last Season? Shutup and dont think too much... 

At the end of the day alll throughout Lost we have been told to think about the DETAILS and try and see how it could all fit into a cohesive whole and we had been assured it can and that these details are important. The reason why the ending sucks is that you have to STOP trying to do that and just have to accept that none of matters (because they couldn't find a more intelligent way to explain all these mysteries they created over the years)

That to me is bad storytelling no matter how you look at it. 

As Midphase said, imagine if Tolkein did that. Just made up stuff and had stuff happen for no reason that had no coherent relation to the main plot just because it sounded cool at the time then right at the end chapter introduce a concept that really is irrelevant to the entire main storyline. _(Really the entire side flashes in Season 6 are completely irrelevant if you think about it... they tell you nothing we dont already know and they dont advance the story at all except give us a cosy feel-good ending)._ We wouldnt give him a free pass, so why the Lost writers? I hold them to the same standard I do film writers, novelists or playwrights. Maybe they tried to make the best out of the mess they created and this was the best they could come up with, but thats their fault. 

Lost shows barely any planning whatsoever. Look at some other shows and they make so much more sense and well thoughtout.


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## noiseboyuk (May 29, 2010)

Well Ed, I can't - mustn't - go into a blow by blow on this... I've lost (!) too much of my life to these sorts of internet discussions. But my view remains, since you keep invoking "magic" as the reason you hate what happened to the show. And it's clear by your use of the word "magic" that it is a valueless explanation - nothing I or anyone can say will change that.

My bottom line is different. Explanations in life can either be rational or irrational. I totally accept that Lost's explanations were irrational - but I definitely did not find them valueless. It was a universe where you could shift in time, where spirits can take the form of corpses then turn into pillars of murderous black smoke. No amount of invoking the Casimir effect was ever going to satisfactorially explain that stuff rationally. And it was abundantly clear from the meta narrative that over the six series, the axis tilted well away from the scientific domain to faith - as I say, it was Jack's Hero's Journey.

The explanations weren't all nonsense. It was about protecting the soul of mankind - the difference between humanity and what Sayid became (essentially psychopathic). In your world, this is nonsense because there is no such thing as a "soul of mankind". I'm not at all sure that there is either, but I'm happy to accept it as a fictional concept - and that would be the difference between us.

Every which way I look at it, it comes down to a viewer's attitude to faith. You may say it isn't, but it is... and here's why. None of it makes any sense to you - literally nonsense - because faith (or "magic") is valueless. If you cannot accept that this is even potentially in fiction a valid world-view, Lost holds absolutely nothing for you. You are actually looking for answers to different questions than the ones the show answered - yet they are about the same thing.

It's much like the simple "how did the universe come into being" question. AN answer is God. To the scientist, this isn't a real answer, because it answers a question with other questions - who or what is God? How did he create it? Who created him? The answer "God" is completely scientifically valueless. But to those with faith, God is a perfectly satisfactory end answer, because they are unconcerned about the physics and mechanics, their concern is meaning and purpose. Science and faith essentially occupy different domains, but they are certainly not mutually exclusive.

PS - yup, forgot / didn't know about those Biblical talking animals - as you say I guess no different to any other allegedly bone fide miricle when you think about it.


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## midphase (May 29, 2010)

It's really too bad that Kid-Surf is on hiatus from this board because I would sure love to hear what he has to say about all this coming from a writer's perspective.


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## Ed (May 29, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sat May 29 said:


> Well Ed, I can't - mustn't - go into a blow by blow on this... I've lost (!) too much of my life to these sorts of internet discussions. But my view remains, since you keep invoking "magic" as the reason you hate what happened to the show. And it's clear by your use of the word "magic" that it is a valueless explanation - nothing I or anyone can say will change that.



No you still have it wrong.

I dont think its valueless at all. I love horror films such as 1408, which was apparently based on a short story by Steven King.

I dont really understand how you can think that I think its valueless, I mentioned Tolkein remember? Thats all about magic. The difference is, as I said, its consistent with itself. Stuff doesnt happen for no reason, we're arent told stuff is important and this happen over and over and then in the end just get basically told not to think about all that stuff very much and it happened because its magic and anything can happen. 

To me thats lazy. Its got nothing to do with supernatural storytelling, its about storytelling itself.



> My bottom line is different. Explanations in life can either be rational or irrational. I totally accept that Lost's explanations were irrational - but I definitely did not find them valueless. It was a universe where you could shift in time, where spirits can take the form of corpses then turn into pillars of murderous black smoke. No amount of invoking the Casimir effect was ever going to satisfactorially explain that stuff rationally. And it was abundantly clear from the meta narrative that over the six series, the axis tilted well away from the scientific domain to faith - as I say, it was Jack's Hero's Journey.



You're missing my point, it doesnt make sense as a *story *. Again, its got nothing to do with the idea that a smoke monster is impossible. 

The "axis tiled to faith" because that way, as I said, they could use it as a get out of jail free card and get a free pass on all the bullshit mysteries they created over the years. Its just as stupid as saying "it was just a dream".



> The explanations weren't all nonsense. It was about protecting the soul of mankind - the difference between humanity and what Sayid became (essentially psychopathic). In your world, this is nonsense because there is no such thing as a "soul of mankind". I'm not at all sure that there is either, but I'm happy to accept it as a fictional concept - and that would be the difference between us.



No I find it nonsense because the entire concept is then reduced to a simplistic childish sentiment that has no deeper meaning. 

Lets look at this briefly...

Jacob and the MIB just fell into their roles, they really are irrelevant when trying to find this deeper meaning. Jacob got his job from his murderous step mother. Jacob spent the rest of his life trying to stop the MIB from leaving because he turned him into smokey in a fit of rage after the MIB killed their step mother. His step mother ruled he couldn't leave and Jacob apparently decides she is right. The MIB is and Jacob are just ordinary humans who crashed there, we aren't told they are special in any way to start with. They grew into being special, their step mother wanted one of them to be her successor in protecting the island. She made it so they can't die and can't kill each other. But who was she? We aren't told. She got the job from her mother. Who was she? We aren't told. Whats the light? Goodness ....or something, and its very important it doesn't get put out. And that's all the backstory we get.

So here's the thing. There is no reason given for why the MIB can't leave the island. Absolutely none. We know Jacob doesnt *like *to allow people to leave, its his decision. Yet, we also know that you can leave if you follow certain coordinates. Then we get told that the MIB wants to find the light and put it out, and thats why the people are digging, and he is helping so he can do that and leave. Why doesn't he just build a boat and leave? The only thing that could be stopping him is the protector of the island, whats the light got to do with it?

All Jacobs brother ever wanted to do was leave the island after being told that his mother was murdered by his step mother and he felt he didn't belong there anymore. We aren't told he will do bad things if he leaves, he doesn't say he wants to do bad things. He just wants to leave after being lied to all his life by a murderer! But we are just meant to accept the premise that he is not just a bad guy, but "evil incarnate" and if he leaves somehow the world will come to and end or something. What reason do we have to accept this? They fail to adequately set this principle up, but we now have to accept this premise to make ALL the events after that and EVERYTHING that happened to our Losties make any kind of sense. This is such an intrinsic point to the overall plot and so the fact that the backstory is given such a vacuous incoherent premise is almost insulting. 

In the end they implied Desmond was the only one who could remove that plug and shut off the light anyway, so what was the problem? The MIB wouldnt have been able to do it anyway. All that fuss for nothing. So why did Jacob bother bringing him to the island in the first place? Was it just to kill his brother? After getting hundreds or thousands of people killed over the years? Or was it just to save the souls of the Losties? Again... so he didnt mind having all those other people get killed for that? I realise this is one of the "mysteries", but when you have such a ridiculous plot like this to work with it just comes across as meaningless and pointless. Lost have got people ignoring "plot holes" as "mysteries" its really quite clever... so much so that eventually I believe they realised they could write plot holes INTO the story on purpose!

See, if you are going to set up a premise like was attempted in Lost do it properly or its worse than not doing it at all and truly leaving it up to the viewers imagination.

In the end the side flashes in Season 6 were totally irrelevant and the "mysteries" are all explained away as magic and you have the incoherent simplistic meaningless premise its all based on. That's what we're left with. That's not a mystery that is at all fun to think about! They haven't really left us anything to work with!




> It's much like the simple "how did the universe come into being" question. AN answer is God. To the scientist, this isn't a real answer, because it answers a question with other questions - who or what is God? How did he create it? Who created him? The answer "God" is completely scientifically valueless. But to those with faith, God is a perfectly satisfactory end answer, because they are unconcerned about the physics and mechanics, their concern is meaning and purpose. Science and faith essentially occupy different domains, but they are certainly not mutually exclusive.



Yes from a scientific standpoint saying god did it is a cop out.

But this is about *storytelling*. 

If you say once opon a time there was a god that created the universe and everything in it you immediatly know that anything that god does in the story is consistent in that universe the storyteller created. If in the story something remarkable happens, a miracle, then you know to expect that. The rules have already been made aware to you. Gods can do whatever they like. In the context of Harry Potter for example, we accept that Harry can do magic. We accept this because thats the point of the story, its the logic of the story. We know the rules, they have already been set up.Imagine a vampire film. We all know vampires cant go out in the light, so if in the film in one place a character can go in the light and have nothing happen to them, you have to provide an explanation for that. It cheats the audience to simply say its a supernatural story and they can do anything unless you already explained your world of vampires can go in the light. Your characters cant "do anything", or change the rules of their universe when they feel like it, otherwise it all becomes meaningless! There were even rules in the Matrix, you had to use a phone to get out, if you died in the Matrix you died in the real world. Neo could do things others couldnt because he was The One. We accept this, it makes sense internally. They wouldn't be able to just change the rules whenever they felt like it and not think it wouldn't piss the audience off. Or, look at comic book heros. They also have rules. Superman is harmed by Kryptonite, if he isnt in a scene, you need to explain why. If someone comes into contact with radiation we know this might cause them to mutate, because in the world of a comic book that is how the rules work. If you add on such inconsistencies onto more and more and more and more and then not explain them... thats going to piss people off, especially if you acted each time like these mysteries were important and then at the end act like you dont have to because it was all magic anyway... its just as stupid as saying it was all a dream.. because we all know there are no rules in a dream. 

And like I said before, the side flashes on Season 6 literally are pointless. They add absolutely nothing to the story except provide a nice ending where everyone is happy. That is incredibly lazy to me.

If you like it, thats great, but this is why I don't.


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## choc0thrax (May 29, 2010)

midphase @ Sat May 29 said:


> It's really too bad that Kid-Surf is on hiatus from this board because I would sure love to hear what he has to say about all this coming from a writer's perspective.



He's been ruffling some feathers over at another forum. I'm sure he'll check back here soon though.


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## José Herring (May 29, 2010)

@ Ed,

I think this video explains the Lost ending better than anything I've seen so far:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XChxLGnIwCU


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## noiseboyuk (May 30, 2010)

Ed, I always start these things by saying I won't get involved, and invariably I do, which is clearly my own madness. I just wanted to highlight a couple of points though.

The light. I think we absolutely WERE told what it was. It was the source of Mankind's goodness - my aforementioned soul of mankind. As soon as they said that, I thought "there's the answer" (but looks like I was alone - curiously this was totally ignored on the forum I hang around occasionally). That made sense of the whole struggle to me. Put simply - MiB wanted the light extinguished (and he needed Desmond to achieve that, which he worked into his plan... this is fine, he's clearly got the knack of finding loopholes) and Jacob wanted it protected. I have no problem with this central dynamic - and sure the underlying morality is questionable on both sides, but that makes it interesting.

With some of your thoughts on the rules, I do have sympathy - I think they were used a little too conveniently / arbitrarily for comfort.

Final thought - the flashsideways definitely weren't irrelevant to me in terms of character, and they provided some of the best drama of the whole show (Dr Linus was a fantastic episode).


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## Ed (May 30, 2010)

noiseboyuk @ Sun May 30 said:


> Ed, I always start these things by saying I won't get involved, and invariably I do, which is clearly my own madness. I just wanted to highlight a couple of points though.



Its okay I get that too 



> The light. I think we absolutely WERE told what it was. It was the source of Mankind's goodness - my aforementioned soul of mankind.



I'm not sure they said "source of mankind's goodness" though it does seem like the kind of thing they would say, but if they did... that seems way too simplistic to me. The entire lost Universe is so complex, and *that *is the entire reason given? The *entire *backstory? Mankinds goodness is a light on a magical island. Nothing deeper than that. Just seems so weak to me. 



> Put simply - MiB wanted the light extinguished



Why? 

And what reason did they give us to accept he was "evil"? But not just evil but somehow if he left the world would end or something. All this stuff they just ask you to accept when they haven't given us any reason to. 

As I say everything else is so complex, we understand characters motivations in various ways but we don't understand anything about this guy or the light or why it all matters. Also, its like they went out their way to show some kind of ambiguous morality issues with his character but then conclude some kind of absolute morality about him being "evil"? Where did that come from? I just don't get it.



> (and he needed Desmond to achieve that, which he worked into his plan... this is fine, he's clearly got the knack of finding loopholes) and Jacob wanted it protected.



But Jacob *brought *Desmond back to the island, we were told that. Without Desmond, theòÒ¹   ÕdtÒ¹   ÕduÒ¹   ÕdvÒ¹   ÕdwÒ¹   ÕdxÒ¹   ÕdyÒ¹   ÕdzÒ¹   Õd{Ò¹   Õd|Ò¹   Õd}Ò¹   Õd~Ò¹   ÕdÒ¹   Õd€Ò¹   ÕdÒ¹   Õd‚Ò¹   ÕdƒÒ¹   Õd„Ò¹   Õd…Ò¹   Õd†Ò¹   Õd‡Ò¹   ÕdˆÒ¹   Õd‰Ò¹   ÕdŠÒ¹   Õd‹Ò¹   ÕdŒÒ¹   ÕdÒ¹   ÕdŽÒ¹   ÕdÒ¹   ÕdÒ¹   Õd‘Ò¹   Õd’Ò¹   Õd“Ò¹   Õd”Ò¹   Õd•Ò¹   Õd–Ò¹   Õd—Ò¹   Õd˜Ò¹   Õd™Ò¹   ÕdšÒ¹   Õd›Ò¹   ÕdœÒ¹   ÕdÒ¹   ÕdžÒ¹   ÕdŸÒ¹   Õd Ò¹   Õd¡Ò¹   Õd¢Ò¹   Õd£Ò¹   Õd¤Ò¹   Õd¥Ò¹   Õd¦Ò¹   Õd§Ò¹   Õd¨Ò¹   Õd©Ò¹   ÕdªÒ¹   Õd«Ò¹   Õd¬Ò¹   Õd­Ò¹   Õd®Ò¹   Õd¯Ò¹   Õd°Ò¹   Õd±Ò¹   Õd²Ò¹   Õd³Ò¹   Õd´Ò¹   ÕdµÒ¹   Õd¶Ò¹   Õd·Ò¹   Õd¸Ò¹   Õd¹Ò¹   ÕdºÒ¹   Õd»Ò¹   Õd¼Ò¹   Õd½Ò¹   Õd¾Ò¹   Õd¿Ò¹   ÕdÀÒ¹   ÕdÁÒ¹   ÕdÂÒ¹   ÕdÃÒ¹   ÕdÄÒ¹   ÕdÅÒ¹   ÕdÆÒ¹   ÕdÇÒ¹   ÕdÈÒ¹   ÕdÉÒ¹   ÕdÊÒ¹   ÕdËÒ¹   ÕdÌÒ¹   ÕdÍÒ¹   ÕdÎÒ¹   ÕdÏÒ¹   ÕdÐÒ¹   ÕdÑÒ¹   ÕdÒÒ¹   ÕdÓÒ¹   ÕdÔÒ¹   ÕdÕÒ¹   ÕdÖÒ¹   Õd×Ò¹   ÕdØÒ¹   ÕdÙÒ¹   ÕdÚÒ¹   ÕdÛÒ¹   ÕdÜÒ¹   ÕdÝÒ¹   ÕdÞÒ¹   ÕdßÒ¹   ÕdàÒ¹   ÕdáÒ¹   ÕdâÒ¹   Õdã              òÒ¹   ÕdåÒ¹   ÕdæÒ¹   ÕdçÒ¹   ÕdèÒ¹   ÕdéÒ¹   ÕdêÒ¹   ÕdëÒ¹   ÕdìÒ¹   ÕdíÒ¹   ÕdîÒ¹   ÕdïÒ¹   ÕdðÒ¹   ÕdñÒ¹   ÕdòÒ¹   ÕdóÒ¹   ÕdôÒ¹   ÕdõÒ¹   ÕdöÒ¹   Õd÷Ò¹   ÕdøÒ¹   ÕdùÒ¹   ÕdúÒ¹   ÕdûÒ¹   ÕdüÒ¹   ÕdýÒ¹   ÕdþÒ¹   ÕdÿÒ¹   Õe Ò¹   ÕeÒ¹   ÕeÒ¹   ÕeÒ¹   ÕeÒ¹   ÕeÒ¹   ÕeÒ¹   ÕeÒ¹   ÕeÒ¹   Õe	Ò¹   Õe
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## Ed (May 30, 2010)

josejherring @ Sat May 29 said:


> @ Ed,
> 
> I think this video explains the Lost ending better than anything I've seen so far:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XChxLGnIwCU



Since it doesn't... at all... I agree. :lol:


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## paoling (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed @ Sun May 30 said:


> noiseboyuk @ Sun May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Imagine writing a really cool 4 bars of music... but in an arrangement which makes those 4 bars make no sense at all. Just imagine bars from random John Williams pieces stitched together, it would probably not make any sense and its the same thing here.



You're referring to the Giacchino's score for this drama? :D 

His score for Lost was one of the worst things he ever made, musically...
But strangely I find that perfect for the show.

Regarding the ending I agree with you...


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## Ed (Jun 2, 2010)

paoling @ Wed Jun 02 said:


> You're referring to the Giacchino's score for this drama? :D



uh no. But glad you agree with me about the ending


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## Lex (Jun 7, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> Lex @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > I liked the finale...
> ...



Still do, up to EP13....then it started to be ok for me..

But then again I stopped caring about the "plot" somewhere at the half of season 4, and continued watching it for the great scoring, acting, and good characters.. 

aLex


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

Lex @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> Ed @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > Lex @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> ...



... Girl you craazy.

But you're right that if you check your brain at the door its great


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 7, 2010)

I wonder how different the reaction would have been if the producers had been downplaying the mysteries all along instead of hyping them for most of the show's run and then suddenly backpedaling for the last season.


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> I wonder how different the reaction would have been if the producers had been downplaying the mysteries all along instead of hyping them for most of the show's run and then suddenly backpedaling for the last season.



I just know that the problem with it was their attitude was that they believed they could just make shit up and they didn't care. I met someone the other week who actually filmed behind the scenes footage with the main writers and Matthew Fox (_though Fox being there doesnt really matter here_) and followed them around when they were doing some convention thing or something, anyway he said he got the distinct impression they were just making it up and that they found it funny.. I mean just watch some of those interviews and they act all mysterious like they have a plan, when really they are laughing at you! We have no idea! We thought it would sound cool! haha! :lol:


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## Lex (Jun 7, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> when really they are laughing at you! We have no idea! We thought it would sound cool! haha! :lol:



...but wasn't this "in your face" obvious for some years?

aLex


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 7, 2010)

Ed @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> I just know that the problem with it was their attitude was that they believed they could just make [email protected]#t up and they didn't care.



I wonder how much was made up without knowing the answers and how much they had a plan but either changed their mind (for whatever reason) or didn't plan enough and ended up with continuity problems. While I think they dropped the ball with tying the plot together, I don't buy the scenario some have imagined with the writers intentionally planning to leave things hanging to make the audience mad and laugh at them.

It is just a tv show, and it's one thing to be unhappy with the result but another to assume sinister motives.


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

Lex @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> Ed @ Mon Jun 07 said:
> 
> 
> > when really they are laughing at you! We have no idea! We thought it would sound cool! haha! :lol:
> ...



No because I assumed they wanted to try and make something coherent. I realised they were making stuff up, but they had three seasons after finding out they had an end date to NOT just make stuff up but to pull everything together. I figured they would try and do that, and I dont think that was immediately obvious to me until Season 6 and then when they got to Jacobs backstory it got sillier and sillier and then the end was just ridiculous!


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Mon Jun 07 said:


> It is just a tv show, and it's one thing to be unhappy with the result but another to assume sinister motives.



Nothing sinister, just that they didn't take the whole thing seriously enough to care about silly things like plot... or logic.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 7, 2010)

Well that's what I'm talking about, making assumptions that they didn't take it seriously or didn't care. We can all see the end result, but there's no way to know if they were trying their best to tie things together and just weren't able to pull it off. It was probably one of the most complex shows ever, and I wouldn't be surprised if they reached a point where they were planning to tie things together and solve mysteries but realized that they couldn't do it without having obvious contradictions and plot holes.

Even on shows with careful planning (and much less complex than this), it does happen.


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## Ed (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess I find it in such a mess from a writing standpoint that I cant forgive them, They had 3 seasons to sort it out and stop messing with the audience and they still managed to mess it up. The entire Season 6 side flashes to them being dead was completely pointless and should have been left out entirely.


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## Mike Connelly (Jun 8, 2010)

They definitely messed things up, I just wonder if by season 4 they had already written themselves into a corner on many things. I think another possibility is that they had answers for many of the mysteries but whenever they gave an answer they got a reaction that was worse than not answering at all (which did happen pretty often) - basically they thought people might hate the answers so they left them out of the show.

I thought the sideways stuff was great and the ending wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying for me without that material. Obviously there are other possible endings they could have done that didn't go that route, but I can't imagine an alternative that would have had the same effect for me.


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## Ed (Jun 8, 2010)

Mike Connelly @ Tue Jun 08 said:


> They definitely messed things up, I just wonder if by season 4 they had already written themselves into a corner on many things. I think another possibility is that they had answers for many of the mysteries but whenever they gave an answer they got a reaction that was worse than not answering at all (which did happen pretty often) - basically they thought people might hate the answers so they left them out of the show.



That's true. Trying to answer a question poorly is worse than not answering it at all. 

The entire backstory to the island is so incoherent and the MIB's motivations make no sense and him being "evil" also makes no sense. In the end the entire thing comes down to magic. It was all magic, dont ask why, even if it doesn't make any sense, just don't ask. I think that's a really poor justification for everything that happened. 



> I thought the sideways stuff was great and the ending wouldn't have been nearly as satisfying for me without that material. Obviously there are other possible endings they could have done that didn't go that route, but I can't imagine an alternative that would have had the same effect for me.



I'm glad you liked it, but really there was absolutely no point to any of it. It explained exactly nothing and it had absolutely no relation to the island whatsoever. It was just a way to provide a nice happy ending. We got some nice performances out of the actors, but *in context *its completely retarded and it shouldn't be there. They could easily have used that time to do something relevant . 

The premise of the backstory between Jacob/MIB/the light is so ridiculous and makes so little sense that its almost insulting. It made the whole REASON behind everything so vacuous, empty, simplistic and pointless (pick your word).


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## paoling (Jun 19, 2010)

There's an interesting post in an italian forum about lost's story.

http://forum.lostpedia.com/lost-la-vera ... c099d&amp;

Pratically it explains that Lost was conceived as a mini-serie of 12 episodes with people survived from an aircraft fall. In these episodes the characters have visions like in Solaris.
But Lost was confirmed for other 12 episodes, and they pratically went on with the story without knowing how to finish that. 

For example they switch to the sci-fi in the 5° season, but they noticed that it would be not so weel received by the audience, and in the 6° season they switch on magic.

Some characters left because they had problems with law, like Ana Lucia, Libby and Desmond (who left for about one season), others left for money, like Mr.Eko; so the story changed abruptly for external reasons... They introduced lots of nonsense things, like the Rules. "You can't leave the island" "I can't kill you", without really explaining why. 
Wildmore (whose actor said that he couldn't watch a thing like lost  ) was brought from Desmond flashback's to one of the main character of the 4° season and he seemed like a very important character just to be killed like the most stupid character ever, in half a second. And why was him on the island? No answer.

Everything started to fall when Abrams left the series; for this reasons Jacob has sarcastically this name: JJ Abrams stands Jeffrey Jacob Abrams and Jacob is a character who pilots lifes of other leaving them alone when they need.

So in the end they decided for a very simple story; the contrast between good and evil. The good a bit goofy; and the bad with some reasons to be like that.
The award to the losties would be a sit-com world where every people meets again and live happily.

8) 
I don't know if there's more funny in this story of in my english summary


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