# Let's talk surround



## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

With sample libraries like Spitfire now offering 5.1 surround mixes (albeit not offering 96KHz, but downlsampled to 48KHz), I am planning to invest in a surround capable mixing environment. For me that means building up on my JBL LSR 4328P, adding the center and two rears plus sub. But here it does not end, apart from room treatement considerations and software, my recording card, RME multiface II, might need an update too.

I am curious what you folks are doing.

Do you already have a surround mixing environment? What are your experiences, pitfalls etc.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 25, 2014)

I am currently working on a "positioning" reverb plugin with plans for a later surround version, so I definitely will need a surround setup within a year. Surround looks to me a lot more difficult to set up, with correct monitor placement, angles and distances, so I will first get myself familiar with surround monitoring with a friend at a German University, who has a great surround studio over there.

Good topic!


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 25, 2014)

I would like to add the following discussion point:

when mixing music for surround, would you really need to work in 96?

If the mastering engineer does his work on an upsampled mix and deliver in 96, wouldn't that be just fine?


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

Hi Peter,

Great, I will look into your reverb in due time.

Yes, from calibrating the system to the various formats etc. this can create a reasonable headache. LOL

Perhaps, just a thought, you might want to invite your friend to this thread if he does not mind sharing some knowledge for setting up a surround sound mixing capable environment.

My living room setup has Teufel speakers and a mid-range, but former Flagship Onkyo Amp to drive them, but that was easy to calibrate and setup compared to what one needs to consider for mixing in surround.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> I would like to add the following discussion point:
> 
> when mixing music for surround, would you really need to work in 96?
> 
> If the mastering engineer does his work on an upsampled mix and deliver in 96, wouldn't that be just fine?



That I don't know either! I would assume though that it is best to stay in 96KHz all the way, as every additional step might introduce unwanted stuff, not?


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 25, 2014)

All our samples are in 44.1 or 48. Really curious if mixing and plugin processing will add anything if you would set up your DAW to 96, apart from the more general 96 kHz discussions.

SpitFire has recorded their magnificent samples in 96, but delivered them in 48.

I am more concerned about Kontakt's SRC (because I work in 44.1) than about the upsampling suggestion 

Btw, it was great to finally meet Paul (synesthesia here) from SpitFire last week, after being connected online for some 10 years)


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

Just sharing:

This looks like a useful tool for measuring.

http://supermegaultragroovy.com/products/FuzzMeasure/

or this:

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Btw, it was great to finally meet Paul (synesthesia here) from SpitFire last week, after being connected online for some 10 years)



:D I imagine so! 

As for SRC, out of my guts, I would think that using specialised programs might provide better results. Not talking about Hardware but this for example.

http://www.weiss.ch/products/saracon

Funny little tool here, how useful it might be I can't really say :

http://src.infinitewave.ca/


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

Who knows, I would hope that Hans perhaps joins here too with a few insights and stories, him being at the cutting edge of that technology, I think he is by far the most experienced here on this forum when it comes to multichannel.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 25, 2014)

I am reading the mastering book by Bob Katz, in which I believe he actually says that he finds Voxengo's R8Brain Pro the best SRC plugin. 

I am happy that to be able the same C++ code for SRC in my plugin(s). Kindly donated to the public domain by Aleksey Vaneev.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 25, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Who knows, I would hope that Hans perhaps joins here too with a few insights and stories, him being at the cutting edge of that technology, I think he is by far the most experienced here on this forum when it comes to multichannel.



That would be cool indeed!

BTW, check out this recent Pensado interview with Alan Meyerson, Hans' super recording and mixing engineer for already 20 years, with some really tips (also in the introduction, by Dave):

http://www.pensadosplace.tv/2014/03/20/episode-155-scoring-mixer-alan-meyerson/ (http://www.pensadosplace.tv/2014/03/20/ ... -meyerson/)

=o


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## Rctec (Mar 25, 2014)

...Just remember that the dub-stages here in Hollywood all work at 48k -not 44.1, not 96. I'm pretty sure it's the same everywhere.

Interestingly, while I see a lot of people setting up for 5.1, the industry has really moved on to 7.1 ...and than there is Dolby "ATHMOS" and the Barco system in Europe.

Another spanner in the works is IMAX, which is a full-range system and doesn't therefore use a separate subwoofer, Which really throws your mix off - so you have to re-balance your low-end differently.

This is just my quick unscientific take on things...

-Hz-


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks Hans, and oh bugger: 7.1...

Are you mixing your mockups in surround in your room as well, or do you that in a later stage in another room dedicated for mixing? (I believe I read something about your flexible way of routing stuff within the building)


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## Rctec (Mar 25, 2014)

Oh, and if you want to have some fun with our 5.1 experiments, go to the ITunes App store, and get the Z+ Music app for the IPhone. It's free...Get the "Man Of Steel" one...with the drummers.
-Hz-


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Mar 25, 2014)

Missing the FB like button here


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## Dietz (Mar 25, 2014)

Rctec @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> [...]
> 
> Interestingly, while I see a lot of people setting up for 5.1, the industry has really moved on to 7.1 ...and than there is Dolby "ATHMOS" and the Barco system in Europe.
> 
> ...



Exactly. What will happen sooner or later therefore is a move from "absolute" final mixes to the creation of pure meta-data for delivery.

The idea is not as new as it might seem, though. IOSONO has been propagating their wavefield-synthesis systems since almost a decade, and concepts like Ambisonics (on which Vienna MIR Pro relies on, too, BTW) are even older than that.

Best,


/Dietz


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 25, 2014)

Dietz,

I am setting up a 5.0 system for film scoring. 

and while it is a 5.0 set-up - The designer has recommended 7 speakers - an extra two mid side speakers for more enveloping sound.

But my question is how does one write music in 7.1?

And how does one mix it down in Cubase?

As far as I know, Cubase only goes up to 6.0


For me it could just mean an extra amplifier since the number of speakers I am already buying. 

Sub is being left out for now.


Tanuj.


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## 24dBFS (Mar 25, 2014)

Hi Guys, 
I am working in 5.1 and 7.1 here since almost 3 years now but I'm struggling with 2 main problems:
1) unfortunately the directors don't really care if it is stereo or surround (at least here in Germany) since they are lacking the technical knowledge - I think - and they fear there are gonna be problems with the audio compatibility when they send their films to festivals since they never know for sure if the venues have the stuff needed to play it back properly or there gonna be some downmixing going on and they will end up with messed audio during the movie presentation. This may have to do with the lack of standard for cinemas here - ok, there is 5.1 for DVD or even 7.1 for BluRay but this is not the preferred medium for the movies due to the picture compression ... blah, blah, blah. Of course the surround subject is coming back into discussion once they want to do the DVDs or BRays and most of the time they want a new mix - basically an up-mix from the "festival-and-TV-safe-stereo" mix.
2). I am using Cubase for all my compositional work here and the surround features in Cubase are OK (Nuendo is a little bit better for that), NI's Kontakt is also able to route for surround but the problems start with the Sample Libraries and 3rd party plugins. The lack of Surround plugins is really a bummer. For reverbs I'm still using my good ole WizooWerb W5 for 5.1 or the surr. plugs from WAVES (rev, compressors, eq's), tried Viennas MIR but it was a machine killer 2 years ago, maybe things changed now, IOSONO was also tested here but I had issues with their vst on PCs here so I've dropped it - the list isn't that long to be honest - in stereo domain the situation is of course much, much better. Then there are the Libs made mainly for stereo - with some exceptions (Spitfire stuff is the most modern and versatile of all of them to date, CineSamples has also nice mics options, Vienna stuff I use works also good especially thanks to VEPro). The solution for me is the use of custom made libraries or multis in Kontakt set up for surr. work. 
It takes of course a lot more CPU power and HDD space to run totally surround templates in 48/32 float for compositional tasks but at the end if the music turns up to be great - it is all worth the hassle! I am a strong believer that this will change soon and there will be more and more demand for surround music here in Europe. I hope at least  since there is such a difference in perception of music when it is created in surround in mind (see "Artificial Intelligence", "Social Network", "Gravity" just to name a few) especially nowadays where we do more and more hybrid work (orchestral + electronics). 
I am still wondering why I am asked to produce trailer music for various libraries but all they ask is stereo stems. At least they should start the surround revolution on the compositional level. 
Ok, sorry for such a long post but this topic is really on my heart.
Cheers guys!
have a nice day everyone!


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## dgburns (Mar 25, 2014)

I feel for all the composers who are basically working in stereo and wondering about surround.Even these days,i'm strongly encouraged to deliver multiple stereo stems to mix.It really seems there is a resistance to allow surround mixes to the mix stage for many projects.I have to sympathize with the dubbing mixers a bit though,because there are many things that can go south for them when trying to deal with an improperly done surround mix,and believe me,I've seen a few film scores go to dubbing stage where the composer had NO CLUE how to provide surround,and the dubbing guy had to work much harder to undo all the bad panning issues,usually meaning stuff being reduced in size to actually move it somewhere in the pan field.
Most of the decent surround mixes do in fact stem from our human hearing,and unless it's a very stylized hybrid kind of story ,the orchestra hall is the one constant in the surround experiment that succeeds to final delivery.And I think that's because we understand the sound of such a room-the end listener that is.All the rest of the fancy panning and synths spinning around and choirs panned to the rear(unless you're an avid church goer) is sometimes just ear candy and gets in the way of a good mix unless it furthers the story onscreen.Horror scores exempt(Charlie Clouser)

And enter ATHMOS,and even then,people are understanding that unless you keep the music panned and coming from similar sources,the music can fall apart.ATHMOS i think is the domain of SFX and venue optimization.My feeling is that scores mixed in ATHMOS will be delivered in 5.1 for a good long time.Maybe even stereo,where the dubbing guy will "throw up" a lex 960 or the new phoenix verb and pull the music offscreen to make it gel with the rest of it all.

Sometimes surround is nothing more then more speakers playing the same thing back,ie,more headroom to make things louder.unless you're recording real players and put up well placed mics to get the room in the recording.

my ramblings-take with a grain of salt


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## 24dBFS (Mar 25, 2014)

Oh, and here you can see a clip about Auro 3D
http://www.avforums.com/video/the-future-of-surround-sound-auro-3d.10116?utm_campaign=march_2014_newsletter&utm_source=Suite26&utm_medium=Email+Campaign (http://www.avforums.com/video/the-futur ... l+Campaign)


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

Wow, just a few hours away... Thanks to all! =o 

Here is an interesting article I just found:

http://www.sonicscoop.com/2014/01/2...best-surround-mixers-approach-the-soundstage/

@Tanuj, perhaps Nuendo is the better choice? Iosono that Dietz mentioned, and their Anymix is included in the latest Nuendo 6 as well. 

Just being curious, do you have any particular reason not to include a subwoofer in your setup? 

Best
G


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

This DTS headphoneX thing is fascinating!

Finding information on requirements and cost is somewhat difficult. I find the features here:

http://www.dts.com/professionals/sound-technologies/headphonex.aspx#features

but I fail to find any information as to what the requirements and costs are to set it up to be able to mix for it. I looked under codecs, assuming that this is part of it, then went through the whole section of professional tools, but there was nothing related to headphoneX.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

Peter Emanuel Roos @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> BTW, check out this recent Pensado interview with Alan Meyerson, Hans' super recording and mixing engineer for already 20 years, with some really tips (also in the introduction, by Dave):
> 
> http://www.pensadosplace.tv/2014/03/20/episode-155-scoring-mixer-alan-meyerson/ (http://www.pensadosplace.tv/2014/03/20/ ... -meyerson/)
> 
> =o



Yeah well, that "brown notes" statement had me nearly spit a full load of coffee over my MacBookPro. :lol:


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## peter5992 (Mar 25, 2014)

Good initiative Peter ---

I am in the middle of wiring up my 5.1 surround setup (Pro Tools 10 / 11), should be up and running within the next couple of weeks. So yes I am definitely stoked about this particular subject matter.


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## Soundmagic (Mar 25, 2014)

Many plugins does not support 5.1 channel is a big problem. And also room acoustic is another difficulty....


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## AR (Mar 25, 2014)

When working with spitfire audio you don't need surround reverbs anymore (same goes for newer 8dio / soundiron stuff and some others). What bothers me is project sam. Just lumina has the option of 3 mic positions and the old orchestral brass. Great libs but lack of surround. 
For all guys the are scared of mixing in surround and are afraid not to be able downmixing to stereo (for demo reasons) check out the waves 5.1 to stereo plugin. Very simple and usefull thing. I made the experience that when mixing in stereo my mix was somewhat overkilled. Too many instruments killing each other. But when i switched over with the same project to surround and the put the plugin back on I was astonished by the great "airness"


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 26, 2014)

Morning,

I was always wondering about the reverberation part to be honest. The "unnatural" ways of the sound, being so very "convincing" at the same time, and how SFX and music are presented in todays films, this "hyper reality" does not exist in the natural world of sound. 

So essentially, those Hollywood giants f*ck with our brains and perception all day long, not? :wink: :lol: 

I think the distribution across the entire surround field opens up for immense creativity in both, pure music, and film. 

With that in mind I was reading up on techniques and found this chap here, Michael Carnes. 

http://www.exponentialaudio.com/Surround/Surround.php

In this thread below, well worth reading, Michael and Sean Costello (The brain and soul behind Valhalla DSP) share a few interesting points.

Hans pointing this out above, - Thanks for that! - and Michael as well, I decided I am going for a full 7.1 now. 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/600903-surround-reverb-plugins-2.html


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 26, 2014)

Dietz @ Tue Mar 25 said:


> Exactly. What will happen sooner or later therefore is a move from "absolute" final mixes to the creation of pure meta-data for delivery.



Hi Dietz,

very nice of you to chime in here too. Knowing you have a lot of miles under the hood in surround as well, your insights are most helpful! 

I am not too sure that I fully understood your statement. Let me ask, what does that mean for future proofing your music, regardless whether Logic, Nuendo, Samplitude or whatever DAW?

I am familiar with the meta data concept in photography, but how does that apply and to what depth in music?


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 26, 2014)

I remember too well when I heard James Guthrie's 5.1 mix of Floyd's The Darkside Of The Moon the first time. I was in the middle of moving from Dublin to a very remote place in Donegal, NW Ireland, when I heard this at a friends place who had the playback facilities.

Amazing to see how all this developed in 10 years alone. 

Interesting article by Alan Parson from 1975.

http://www.stereosociety.com/FourSides.shtml


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 26, 2014)

I have however been told be a senior trusted friend that according to figures only about 1.7% of all films are mixed in 7.1


ATHMOS (why is everyone calling it that, I thought it was ATMOS?) may change this though.



Tanuj.


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## John Rodd (Mar 26, 2014)

Just to throw my 2c into the discussion..... as an experienced score recording + mixing + mastering engineer, who works in both 5.1 and stereo.

Consider that there are many, many ways to go very wrong when mixing music (film score in this example) in 5.1 :( 

There are many things to think about and do well: how the center channel is used, how to use the sub, how to use the surrounds.... and very importantly: how well the 5.1 mix will sound when folded down to stereo. :shock: 

A poor 5.1 score mix will sound TERRIBLE when folded down to stereo..... and there are many places that a film would be heard in stereo. (ordinary tv broadcast, headphones, etc)

so...

Let's say that there is a composer who is not an expert at mixing 5.1 - he or she is mainly a composer.

Just because a composer could mix in 5.1, it does NOT mean it is a good idea. 

In the vast majority of cases when a composer is mixing their own score.... I would recommend that they deliver a great stereo mix, rather than a bad 5.1 mix. :wink: 

Ultimately a great sounding stereo score mix will serve a low-ish budget project than a bad 5.1 mix..... especially when that bad 5.1 mix gets folded down to stereo (as it will in many places) and the score mix sounds bad.

cheers

John


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 27, 2014)

Thanks Jon! 

In that respect, and albeit being written 10 years ago, I would think that there is still a lot applicable wisdom in that document. Second from the top.

http://www.grammy.org/recording-academy/producers-and-engineers/guidelines

Sadly it has not been upgraded ever since, and a lot has changed, but I would think the principles are still the same, more or less.

Another one I consider very useful: 

http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/DTSSTUDIOMIX.pdf

Of course there is more out there, but nothing beats experience and getting your hands dirty so to speak. While the above is all for film, then there is music only.

I am grateful for any reading recommendations concerning surround.

Best
G


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 27, 2014)

Here something more practical: Ambisonic B and Nuendo

http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/hybrid_mix.html


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 27, 2014)

John,


I agree that a composer who is not skilled enough in surround should not pre-mix the score. 

After he or she has finished writing in 5.1 - it must always go to an engineer for finalization. 

There are far too many things to take care of and the point of getting another expert involved who can be objective is very important.


Tanuj.


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## Rctec (Mar 27, 2014)

We take our sound Very Seriously: http://www.deadline.com/2014/03/cinemac ... ne-before/


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 27, 2014)

Well, of course you do!

I just spent a short while in your mixing room. Thanks for the invite! :wink: 

So, I wonder, I want to feed my music into my beyerdynamic with 11.1, like NOW :!: :lol: 

How can we all make use of headphoneX in our own mix, using headphones and DAW today? Or is that not yet available for all?

It is all "outside the head" anyways. :lol: Looking back to Alan Parson and quad, wow just WOW! 

- top left
- top right
- left
- left-center
- center
- right-center
- right
- left-surround
- right-surround
- top-rear-left
- top-rear-right


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 27, 2014)

answering my own question



> The technology behind Headphone:X is out and available—but not entirely, not quite yet. It still requires a DTS visit and hardware encoding, but that will change very soon with software-based tools for room modeling and plug-ins for producers. For playback, there will soon be EQ curves to optimize for specific headphone types and models, a universal app that isn’t tied to a specific release, and licenses for devices and material that we haven’t even heard of yet.



here: http://mixonline.com/recording/artists_engineers_producers/dts_headphonex_-_an_111_experience_that_brings_the_consumer_into_the_mix_room/


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## blougui (Mar 27, 2014)

Whenever I hear a sound coming from hard pan left/right or from behind, I go like "hey, what's happening in the theatre ?" and never feel immerse but on the contrary distracted from the whole experience. May be it's not surround, though ?

- Erik


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 27, 2014)

blougui @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Whenever I hear a sound coming from hard pan left/right or from behind, I go like "hey, what's happening in the theatre ?" and never feel immerse but on the contrary distracted from the whole experience. May be it's not surround, though ?
> 
> - Erik



Yes, what happens in the theater is that those on the right don't get the sound if set to hard left.

Don't pan hard.

Now what I dream of personally, thinking of spitfire, Hanz Zimmer percussion etc., give us Lyndhurst Hall to mix in headphoneX please :!:


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## Resoded (Mar 27, 2014)

Just wondering, wouldn't it be possible to compose in stereo, export all tracks and maybe different mic positions, send that to a professional mix engineer and let the mixer deal with surround?


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## Rctec (Mar 27, 2014)

we just might do the library in DTS Headphone 'X'...But we are so busy. I'm in the middle of "Interstellar" - with all sorts of "Spiderman" obligations still lurking...and the guy who I really need to finish his mixes is JunkieXL, who's become the most sought-after film composer of late....But his sounds are incredible!
But-Hz-


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 27, 2014)

Rctec @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> we just might do the library in DTS Headphone 'X'...



>8o ...how cool is that! =o 

Now Paul & Christian, do all your libraries in Headphone 'X' please!


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## dgburns (Mar 27, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Rctec @ Thu Mar 27 said:
> 
> 
> > we just might do the library in DTS Headphone 'X'...
> ...



er.....Splunge


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## John Rodd (Mar 27, 2014)

Resoded @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> ....wouldn't it be possible to compose in stereo, export all tracks and maybe different mic positions, send that to a professional mix engineer end let the mixer deal with surround?



BINGO!

:D 

This is actually very, very, very common.

This is how I mixed the score for ELYSIUM, for example. All the virtual instruments were stereo. 

When I recorded the orchestra at Abbey Road studio One, all the mics were mono... so those are mono audio tracks in ProTools.

I then mixed all the score in 5.1, and delivered it in 5.1 stem mixes and a 5.1 full mix. 

The 5.1 stem mixes add up EXACTLY to the full 5.1 mix.

The re-recording mixer could just push up the 5.1 stem mixes - exactly as they are - and hear exactly the 5.1 full mix. Identical. Then he could do very subtle fader moves to help accent the story on the screen, and work with dialog and SFX.

cheers

John


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## 24dBFS (Mar 27, 2014)

+1 for what John said! 
This would be the optimal workflow in my opinion.
Let's do the audio professionals what they do best and let composers focus on composition. Of course the score is only a part of the whole aural and visual experience in the movie. We should never forget that and always be aware of the function music has in a movie. If it blends with the rest and don't distract then all is OK and good written and mixed score shouldn't be noticeable - "oh the music was in surround because it was all over the place all the time".

@ John Rodd: maybe You could tell us - composers - what are the best scenarios for delivering music stems to a professional mixer. Just a general guidelines to save You headache and speed up the process. What about preferred formats, compression, reverbs used. Does it depend on the system / board a mixer is using? Main differences in a surr. mix for a movie theater vs. TV broadcast? 
Thanks in advance!
Cheers!


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## germancomponist (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeah, John is right!


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

John is always right. What were we talking about? :? 

D


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## germancomponist (Mar 27, 2014)

Daryl @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> John is always right. What were we talking about? :?
> 
> D



Not always. Talk with him about women... . 

(Yes, I am joking!) o-[][]-o


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## John Rodd (Mar 27, 2014)

24dBFS @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> +1 for what John said!
> .....John Rodd: maybe You could tell us - composers - what are the best scenarios for delivering music stems to a professional mixer. Just a general guidelines to save You headache and speed up the process. What about preferred formats, compression, reverbs used. Does it depend on the system / board a mixer is using? Main differences in a surr. mix for a movie theater vs. TV broadcast?
> Thanks in advance!
> Cheers!



Quick reply while a huge PT session opens....

To be clear - if I was not recording the score... and if I was just mixing it.... I would want a MULTITRACK delivered to me, not *stem mixes.*

A multitrack is raw, unmixed audio, that has not had any reverb applied to the audio tracks... and generally not compression, not EQ..... 

I have a long, detailed spec sheet I customize and email clients before we start a project

but the short answer is: I do not want generic reverbs applied in most cases. 

The exception would be a synth type sound (pad, for example) that the composer has used flanging / delay / etc to create the sound. I would generally want that 'baked in' (but not always.)

there are always some discussions on each project to find the best workflow. :D 

(you) Main differences in a surr. mix for a movie theater vs. TV broadcast? 

This is a very, very wide question.... too general to answer here.... sorry.

OK back to work.......


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## 24dBFS (Mar 27, 2014)

John, thanks for taking the time! 
Feel free to drop us a line every time session is opening 

Happy Mixing!

KO


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## AR (Mar 27, 2014)

Hans Zimmer encouraged me to get that 5th speaker and switch over from 4.1 to 5.1. And gotta say: I understand now what he ment with "sound-stage collapsing". 
Now I read 7.1 is the new standard. Man, my wife is going to kill me if I bring in 2 more KRKs.


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## Ryan (Mar 28, 2014)

AR @ 28/3/2014 said:


> Hans Zimmer encouraged me to get that 5th speaker and switch over from 4.1 to 5.1. And gotta say: I understand now what he ment with "sound-stage collapsing".
> Now I read 7.1 is the new standard. Man, my wife is going to kill me if I bring in 2 more KRKs.



Sure, I would kill you too for bringing KRKs instead of anything else.... your wife got standards 



I got KRKs my self, but I like to make jokes about them...


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## Firstfewbars (Mar 28, 2014)

The best way to learn to mix in 5.1 is to listen to the mix from a feature film. Import the sound files in your DAW.
Listen, mute, solo. Listen again…over and over…

What instruments are in the center channel? How much is in the center channel and in the surround channels?
Is there reverb leakage from the percussion in the surround channels? Some composers have percussion in the surround channels , some have not. Usually, I do not.

Solo instruments and vocals (dry signal) can advantageously be mixed into the center channel if there´s a scene with no diologue. Use only the reverb in the L , R and Ls Rs.

Listen to how the bagpipe is mixed in " Road to Perdition " .
The bagpipe is only in the center channel. No orchestra - just the bagpipe. Only dry signal. Then there are reverb from the bagpipe in the other speakers. Nice…

Another example is " Now We Are Free" - Gladiator. Only dry vocal, bass and a tiny bit of strings in the center channel. The great reverb to the vocal is placed in the other speakers. Lovely…

It is also common to have dry signal (close mics) from the strings in the center channel.

The list goes on and on…

There's unwritten rules of how to mix in certain situations, such as during the dialogue , not to have too much in the center speaker.
Strings are no problem but having woodwind during a dialogue may not be as smart as it will (probably) interfere with the dialogue....


When it comes to delivery of the finished mix, I've been through all possible solutions. 

My first music mix (15 years ago) was delivered as a 100+ track Pro Tools session with the associated computer.
Time constraints meant that we simply did not have time to mix down the music in 5.1 stems. It worked... 

The same thing happened with movie number 2 but now it was only 80 tracks ... 

The third film was mixed down to 5.1 (one stem). Now there was no way to change something in the mix. Luckily it was not needed. 

Then I began to deliver the music in 5.1 stems. Percussion, strings, pads, brass / woodwind. 

The last six movies I have delivered only in 5.1 (one stem) with the possibility for sound engineers to "order" certain songs with multiple stems if it was a difficult passage to mix.
Of the 130 songs it was only three who was remixed into several stems.

Over the next year I will make five movies and I'll probably deliver stems when necessary.

Just my 2 cents…


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## AR (Mar 29, 2014)

Is there any way to get a 7.1 out in Cubase 7.5?


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## Dietz (Mar 29, 2014)

Firstfewbars @ Fri Mar 28 said:


> [...]
> Listen to how the bagpipe is mixed in " Road to Perdition " .
> The bagpipe is only in the center channel. No orchestra - just the bagpipe. Only dry signal. Then there are reverb from the bagpipe in the other speakers. Nice…[...]



It's funny you say that - because this is something that I try to avoid under all circumstances. It exposes one single instrument (or even worse: a sole voice) in a way that would compromise all but the very best performances and/or compositions.

I seem to remember that there's a release of Sting's Dowland-project (or was it another one of his more recent albums ... I can't remember) where you hear his voice completely naked in the center channel, and that's _not_ good.


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## 24dBFS (Mar 29, 2014)

@ AR - there is no way to do it by default since the maximum in Cubase is 6 channels (6.0 or 5.1) it has to do with the panning possibilities (there is only 5.1 panner on board) BUT You can go to VST COnnections > Outputs and create one 5.1 out and one Stereo out routed to proper physical outs on your soundcard. This way you could have a standard 5.1 setup with surround panner, 5.1 plugins etc, and a separate stereo out for those extra 2 Lb & Rb channels. You can always bounce all 8 channels as separate monos and deliver to the mixer. There is no way to have all 8 channels bounced to one multichannel file in Cubase at that time. For more output options you have to go to Nuendo.
Cheers!


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## AR (Mar 29, 2014)

Yeah. That was my thought too. Anyways thep movie I'm working on right now is mixed in dolby digital, so no need for 7.1 yet. Nuendo is too expensive just for bouncing all to 7.1.

How does Hans compose in surround? I think his samples are 5.1. His live recordings are in Pro Tools I guess. From there on he has more possibilties like dolby atmos, 11.1 etc.


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## mirrodin (Jan 12, 2016)

@Firstfewbars wrote:


> The last six movies I have delivered only in 5.1 (one stem) with the possibility for sound engineers to "order" certain songs with multiple stems if it was a difficult passage to mix.
> Of the 130 songs it was only three who was remixed into several stems.



Wow, very informative especially for a business perspective. I'd love to pick your brain on how you might set up your contractual agreements and pricing model to accommodate this.


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## geoffreyvernon (Jan 14, 2016)

Surround is a must in the industry now! Everything has moved away from stereo for the most part, and most of the times if you deliver stereo stems to any bigger budget project you might get smacked.  5.1 is a must however everything is moving towards 7.1 now honestly, and on top of that there's also Dolby Athmos. But 5.1 is definitely a must for delivering and mixing your stems and project! If not 5.1 at least quad *4.1* because a lot of times there's no music in the center channel!


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## gsilbers (Jan 14, 2016)

From another point of view.
There are different venues and levels of presenting the film/tv show.
This affects dynamics and imaging.

We normally just look at big Hollywood hans zimmer/alan meyerson stuff. there is also tv and there is also nearfield mix and also broadcast mix. Film festivals.

You might think that if you mix for a movie that's it. Your movie was released on a theatre and you are good to go.
well, that's only half the story of only one storyline.

It depends on who and were the final mix will end up and try to help it get it there the best way possible. That way anywhere down the line, I do mean waaayyy down the line in time and places. Think worldwide+Years.

Some broadcaster for example, will use the 5.1 mix and do a quick foldown for stereo transmission. yet, the LUFS/LKFS of those two mix stems have to match. think that through for a second. (yikes!)

On the other side, there is home entertainment were there is a dolby decode safe fold down that aligns the surrounds to 90 degree angles so it can be properly decoded. 

Then there is vod/est which follows home entertainment specs but can be used for broadcasts as well. Which means the some delivery specs might want to hit some very low dynamic range mixes or want both surround/ltrt to match.
All this of course is related more towards re-recording mixers but at the same time if you are delivering in
5.1 I suggest making sure to check that the stereo mix sounds close enough both in imaging and dynamics.

Other minor things like what might sound cool in 5.1 like having percussion only upfront but legato something on the left surround will end up being cool for theatre but will be cumbersome down the line. it can be done, don't get me wrong. it is creative and fun yet, just panning things normally would of suffice as well and not give industry folks a headache. 

Alan Mayerson's kind of mentioned it on the pensado's place were a shaker might also be panned with delay to other members of the audience on the other side of the theatre so they will hear it.
That's half the story. That mix he does will end up on free TV so that shaker will not sound as good or not at all if he wouldn't have panned it. 

If you listen to Charlie clouser's 5.1 mix of the main title for American horror story 1, it sound very cool but in stereo
it also worked. with less common instruments its easier to be more creative. with normal instruments there is a level of expectation of the panning. still, making it work for stereo is crucial imo.

I personally think that until you get to a place were you know exactly what you are doing and maybe hans/charlies' level, try to keep the 5.1 simple and the stereo version of it to be close enough in imaging and dynamics.
and keep track of the 5.1 phase meter and the phase when folding down the stereo.

my line of job I got to work with both hans and charlies 5.1 stuff all the time here in LA. I also get to work with many "acquisition titles" or lower budget stuff where there have been issues with the 5.1 mix or the stereo mix.
A lot of times the re-recording mixer will just do a normal fold down and this is what will end up in downstream media.... which is the media that actually makes a profit in Hollywood btw. (says the bitter me)
so even if you hire a mixing engineer to mix your music, once the re-recording mixer finishes a mix that's in 5.1, it will automatically be folded down to stereo/LTRT. they will not use your stereo only mix.
but if you are releasing the music in iTunes, I suggest doing a proper stereo mix. 


I think there are some dvd releases were the music is featured solo or if you can watch movies and tv show in surround so you can compare how the 5.1 is mix you can listen to the panning. and also listen to the panning in stereo to compare as well.

Also, to echo rtec about 7.1. yes, the industry is moving to 7.1. but also atmos. most , if not all new big budget releases are in 7.1. not all are atmos.
that is for features. and it will still be later mixed in 5.1.
TV is still 5.1.


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