# Best Piano Library for Playing/Practicing?



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

*TL;DR - I'm a classical pianist who mainly plays Bach, and I'm looking for a piano sample library that will respond as close to a real piano as possible for practicing on a digital piano. I want lots of velocity layers (very deep sampling), half-pedaling, and really good velocity response.*

Hi! I'm a pianist who practices at home with a Casio CDP-130. Really cheap stuff I know, but it sounds (in headphones) and feels realistic to me, at least compared to my upright.

However, whenever I try to record the MIDI of a performance from the digital piano and sample it through a piano VST, the results always sound awful in terms of the velocities. The velocities sound nothing like how I played. The soft notes are too soft, and the loud notes are too loud. Sometimes, two notes that have similar velocities, like 99 and 102, would sound drastically different because they happen to fall into the end of one velocity layer and the start of another velocity layer, respectively. For example, the the velocity layer "medium soft" could be for notes with 80-99 velocities, and the velocity layer "medium hard" could be for notes with 100-115 velocities. The result is that, although these two notes are played with similar velocities, they sound drastically different.

I have tried altering the velocity curves to all kinds of shapes and it never solve the problem. I have also tried increasing and decreasing all the MIDI notes as a whole to see if there's a sweet spot I could hit, but that didn't help either.

I have had this problem with all the piano libraries I have tried, which include NI Berlin Concert Grand, NI The Giant, Spitfire Concert Grand, and Spitfire Felt Piano. The only piano library that does okay in terms of velocities is the stock Logic Steinway, but it doesn't sound the best in terms of tones, and I do need to put a MIDI compressor to kind of flatten the dynamics of my playing. Here's what it sounds like.

The only thing that I think might help a lot is to actually monitor my performance by listening to the piano VST live, instead of listening to the sound from the digital piano. I have tried that, but I found the way the piano VSTs respond doesn't feel as real as how the digital piano responses.

In case you think I have bad techniques, I really don't think so! I'm classically trained (through private lessons) pianist and I had been playing on my upright piano for 10 years before I moved countries and needed to rely on a digital piano. So I don't think my playing is the culprit here.

Recently, I have been eyeing NI's Noire. I love that it has both a regular mode and a felt mode. It sounds fantastic, but I don't know if it will respond to my playing well.

Thank you in advance!


----------



## doctoremmet (May 26, 2020)

Paging @CGR


----------



## SupremeFist (May 26, 2020)

You really do need to monitor through the piano VST if you hope to achieve acceptable results, because the velocity response of any given sample library is simply never going to be exactly the same as that of your digital piano. Noire is one of the smoothest sampled pianos out there to play, but I think what you really want is Pianoteq.


----------



## CatOrchestra (May 26, 2020)

Pianoteq is nice, I use it it with the Kawai VPC 1. 

VSL might be a beautiful pairup?


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> You really do need to monitor through the piano VST if you hope to achieve acceptable results, because the velocity response of any given sample library is simply never going to be exactly the same as that of your digital piano. Noire is one of the smoothest sampled pianos out there to play, but I think what you really want is Pianoteq.



Hm okay. In that case I will need to find a piano VST that response like a real piano so I don't screw up my techniques.

By "smoothest," what do you mean exact? Are you referring to the sound?

Pianoteq looks promising. How does it compare to Garritan CFX, if you know?


----------



## SupremeFist (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> Hm okay. In that case I will need to find a piano VST that response like a real piano so I don't screw up my techniques.
> 
> By "smoothest," what do you mean exact? Are you referring to the sound?
> 
> Pianoteq looks promising. How does it compare to Garritan CFX, if you know?


By smoothest I mean smoothest in the velocity-layer transitions. 

For pure playing and practising, Pianoteq is going to be the most responsive, but (to many ears) when playing back a recording it doesn't sound as convincing as Garritan or any of the other high-quality sound libraries, so you do have to make a trade-off. 

If you just want to play and practice, what is wrong with the built-in sound of your digital piano?


----------



## Ben (May 26, 2020)

We just released the Bösendorfer Imperial  https://www.vsl.co.at/Synchron_Package/Bosendorfer_Imperial
But our other Synchron pianos are also really playable, so you may want to take a look at these (currently in sale)


----------



## SupremeFist (May 26, 2020)

Also bear in mind that high-quality sample libraries might well respond more like a real piano than your entry-level keyboard, so judging the former by the latter might be a mistake...


----------



## sostenuto (May 26, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Also bear in mind that high-quality sample libraries might well respond more like a real piano than your entry-level keyboard, so judging the former by the latter might be a mistake...



Cool comment !  Many years with capably maintained Grotrian Steinweg G-225. When sold, nice Roland KR-577 was light-years away. Added Axiom Pro61, and NI-KK S49, far different yet.
Enjoy them all, yet each provides much different player experiences ..... then, Piano VSTi add to the mix. Now use IvoryII Italian, all NI K12U, Addictive Keys, several others.

Good luck with your selection, but realize none will be much like fine acoustic instruments, their actions, and salient sensory feedback.


----------



## CatOrchestra (May 26, 2020)

@Ben any recommendations for custom VPC1 touch curves for VSL?


----------



## JohnG (May 26, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Also bear in mind that high-quality sample libraries might well respond more like a real piano than your entry-level keyboard, so judging the former by the latter might be a mistake...



Or the opposite -- it could be worse. Depending on your system, a high-quality sample piano could feel rather mushy compared with a built-in ROMpler type sound, if it requires a meaningful buffer setting.

*...But Covid...*

Because of the variations in keyboards, systems, libraries, and their various velocity curves, this is a pretty complex question to answer with any certainty, especially if you're accustomed to playing a real piano. I have never found any electronic setup that accurately replicates my piano. 

If he / she wants to be happy, I think the OP most likely needs to experience a system and have a little time to try alternate settings (velocity curves, keyboard settings for velocity as well, buffer settings on any computer involved -- all that).

Sadly, I don't know if in-store experimenting is available right now. Possibly, visiting a friend's studio might be possible, but that also might not really help unless the friend has the same keyboard. Not to mention the need for disinfectant wipes and a mask


----------



## Ben (May 26, 2020)

CatOrchestra said:


> @Ben any recommendations for custom VPC1 touch curves for VSL?


Sorry, I don't have a VPC1.
I use a Roland FP-30 and don't feel the need for additional velocity/touch curves. But then I'm also not a professionally trained piano player, so there are more qualified people out there that hopefully can help you with that.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> By smoothest I mean smoothest in the velocity-layer transitions.
> 
> For pure playing and practising, Pianoteq is going to be the most responsive, but (to many ears) when playing back a recording it doesn't sound as convincing as Garritan or any of the other high-quality sound libraries, so you do have to make a trade-off.
> 
> If you just want to play and practice, what is wrong with the built-in sound of your digital piano?



Noire sounds very promising if it has very smooth velocity-layer transitions because that's always one of the biggest problems for me.

I just tested out Pianoteq's trial (so grateful they have trial versions!!), and it does response rather properly and I also came to the conclusion that it sounds rather synth-like.

Sorry I didn't clarify. I do want to make some nice recordings of my own playing and perhaps release a little Bach EP before I get access to a recording studio with a nice piano. That's why I do want a piano VST with great sound as well.


----------



## SupremeFist (May 26, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Or the opposite; depending on your system, a high-quality sample piano could feel rather mushy, if it requires a meaningful buffer setting, compared with a built-in ROMpler sound.
> 
> *...But Covid...*
> 
> ...


True! I was assuming a system capable of playing anything with acceptable latency but not everyone has that.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> Also bear in mind that high-quality sample libraries might well respond more like a real piano than your entry-level keyboard, so judging the former by the latter might be a mistake...


Yeah, I'm well aware that it's an entry-level digital piano, but at least the keys give me a very similar feel to the real pianos I have played. I'm happy to adapt to a high-end piano VST that responses closer to a real piano.


----------



## SupremeFist (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> Noire sounds very promising if it has very smooth velocity-layer transitions because that's always one of the biggest problems for me.
> 
> I just tested out Pianoteq's trial (so grateful they have trial versions!!), and it does response rather properly and I also came to the conclusion that it sounds rather synth-like.
> 
> Sorry I didn't clarify. I do want to make some nice recordings of my own playing and perhaps release a little Bach EP before I get access to a recording studio with a nice piano. That's why I do want a piano VST with great sound as well.


OK, so you do want a VST. The good news is that the VSTs you say you have already tried are nowhere near the best that is currently on offer. Perhaps as well as Noire you want to look at Embertone Walker and Ravenscroft 275.


----------



## CatOrchestra (May 26, 2020)

I think with VSL you have 14 days to test it out and get a refund? 

I would have done that (if you have VSL/eLicenser key).


----------



## marclawsonmusic (May 26, 2020)

I would definitely check out Pianoteq. It responds beautifully to real playing since it is a modeled instrument. You will just have to decide if you like the sound. 

Looks like they even have a trial version. https://www.modartt.com/pianoteq


----------



## CatOrchestra (May 26, 2020)

Ben said:


> Sorry, I don't have a VPC1.
> I use a Roland FP-30 and don't feel the need for additional velocity/touch curves. But then I'm also not a professionally trained piano player, so there are more qualified people out there that hopefully can help you with that.


Heard good stuff about the FP-30 action!

Any tip where to start looking for such help?


----------



## Ben (May 26, 2020)

CatOrchestra said:


> Heard good stuff about the FP-30 action!
> 
> Any tip where to start looking for such help?


Yes, it is really great and even better compared to many of the cheaper uprights you find at public places imo. Also I really love the ivory feel on the keys.
Regarding velocity curves I would suggest to start a new thread here or in a more piano focused forum.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

Ben said:


> We just released the Bösendorfer Imperial  https://www.vsl.co.at/Synchron_Package/Bosendorfer_Imperial
> But our other Synchron pianos are also really playable, so you may want to take a look at these (currently in sale)


Thanks for the link. I will definitely take a look. Which of the Synchron pianos would you recommend for playing classical music? To be frank, my family never had the money to afford a high end acoustic piano, but only an average upright piano, so I never really learned what piano manufacturer has what sounds, and how Steinway's pianos differ from Yamaha's in terms of tone, for example.


----------



## Ben (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> Thanks for the link. I will definitely take a look. Which of the Synchron pianos would you recommend for playing classical music? To be frank, my family never had the money to afford a high end acoustic piano, but only an average upright piano, so I never really learned what piano manufacturer has what sounds, and how Steinway's pianos differ from Yamaha's in terms of tone, for example.


In this case listen to the demos on the product pages and go for the one you like most. There are many styles so you maybe want to get at least a second piano to cover the others as well.
I would suggest getting one of the 3 big concert pianos and either the Blüthner or the Bösendorfer Upright for a more intimate sound.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Or the opposite -- it could be worse. Depending on your system, a high-quality sample piano could feel rather mushy compared with a built-in ROMpler type sound, if it requires a meaningful buffer setting.
> 
> *...But Covid...*
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input! Yeah you are right about how a high end piano VST doesn't necessarily mean it will respond more like a real piano on a specific digital piano. I wonder whether or not my cheap digital piano just has some weird way of translating the strength of the key presses to MIDI velocities? I don't know much about digital pianos in general so I'm not sure if a higher end digital piano will have a better "translation" of the strength of the key presses into MIDI velocities.


----------



## CatOrchestra (May 26, 2020)

Upload a midi file here and ppl might play it through their VST for you and save it as a MP3.


----------



## Buz (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> Which of the Synchron pianos would you recommend for playing classical music?


Since you said Bach... If you love Busoni then you want the D-274.
If not then either the CFX or the Upright, depending whether you want a stage space or would rather have a convincing recreation of noodling at home.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

Ben said:


> In this case listen to the demos on the product pages and go for the one you like most. There are many styles so you maybe want to get at least a second piano to cover the others as well.
> I would suggest getting one of the 3 big concert pianos and either the Blüthner or the Bösendorfer Upright for a more intimate sound.


After listening watching some of the videos and listening to the demos, I'm quite sold and I might pick one up. In case it doesn't feel good to play with, will I be able to return the product and get a refund?


----------



## Ben (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> After listening watching some of the videos and listening to the demos, I'm quite sold and I might pick one up. In case it doesn't feel good to play with, will I be able to return the product and get a refund?


Within 14 days, if bought on our website, yes. Make sure to install the piano on a SSD or even better an NVMe SSD. Have fun


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

Buz said:


> Since you said Bach... If you love Busoni then you want the D-274.
> If not then either the CFX or the Upright, depending whether you want a stage space or would rather have a convincing recreation of noodling at home.


Awesome thanks for the info. I think for when I'm playing, I will want to feel like I'm sitting next to the piano, so not a lot of reverb. But for recording purpose I will probably want a big studio room reverb or a concert hall reverb!


----------



## Rory (May 26, 2020)

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the Bechstein Digital Grand, which I am very happy with. Bechstein is a partner in this library:

https://www.bechstein-digital.com/c-bechstein-digital-grand/


----------



## keepitsimple (May 26, 2020)

Garritan CFX or any of the Synchron VSL grands.


----------



## CGR (May 26, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> You really do need to monitor through the piano VST if you hope to achieve acceptable results, because the velocity response of any given sample library is simply never going to be exactly the same as that of your digital piano. Noire is one of the smoothest sampled pianos out there to play, but I think what you really want is Pianoteq.


Pretty much sums ups my thoughts. Pianoteq is capable of a very high level of response and playability (given you are using a high quality controller - preferably with a triple-sensor mechanism for repetition notes) including half & re-pedalling which the majority of sampled pianos struggle with. Some people just can't get along with the Pianoteq modelled tone "character", so personal taste plays a big factor here.

On the sampled side, VSL are the leaders in my opinion. They have a particular character which the Synchron Stage A & B bring to the tone. The Synchrom Pianos also require a recent high spec CPU & SSD to take full advantage of the mic mixing. For Bach, I'd suggest the newly released Bosendorfer 290 Imperial. BTW, here's some beautifully played & recorded Bach on a Bosendorfer 290:




For sampled pianos which are less taxing on your computer, but still play very well, I'd look at the VI Labs Ravenscroft, and maybe the VI Labs Italian Grand (Fazioli 308). Both have a very clear and articulate tone with plenty of dynamics, and cover half & re-pedalling very well.

Garritan CFX is another good option - the piano and the Abbey Road ambience would suit Bach well.


----------



## CGR (May 26, 2020)

Rory said:


> I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the Bechstein Digital Grand, which I am very happy with. Bechstein is a partner in this library:
> 
> https://www.bechstein-digital.com/c-bechstein-digital-grand/


Another fine choice. Extremely well sampled & scripted, with a large range of tone shaping controls available. Plays very consistently and dynamically. Quite a dry studio sampled piano, so needs some well chosen Reverb to give it air & space/depth.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

CGR said:


> Pretty much sums ups my thoughts. Pianoteq is capable of a very high level of response and playability (given you are using a high quality controller - preferably with a triple-sensor mechanism for repetition notes) including half & re-pedalling which the majority of sampled pianos struggle with. Some people just can't get along with the Pianoteq modelled tone "character", so personal taste plays a big factor here.
> 
> On the sampled side, VSL are the leaders in my opinion. They have a particular character which the Synchron Stage A & B bring to the tone. The Synchrom Pianos also require a recent high spec CPU & SSD to take full advantage of the mic mixing. For Bach, I'd suggest the newly released Bosendorfer 290 Imperial. BTW, here's some beautifully played & recorded Bach on a Bosendorfer 290:
> 
> ...



Oh my god Kimiko's recordings of Bach is my favorite, especially the WTC. I have never heard Bach's WTC sounded better than Kimiko's recordings. Even Andras Schiff's are not close (just to me of course).

A high quality keyboard is in my wish list for sure, but so far I'm happy with my cheapo digital piano. WTC is not crazy fast but it's more about awkward finger positions so I'm doing okay.

I tried out the Pianoteq's trial today and while it felt pretty good, I couldn't get past its sound. Sounds way too synthetic to me.

VSL's Synchron libraries seem to be the ones to go. I love that you can EQ individual notes.

Why do you recommend the Bosendorfer Imperial for Bach, over the Yamaha and the Steinway? I never got a chance to play high end pianos other than in competitions, so I don't really know which manufacturers' pianos have what unique tonal characteristics.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

CGR said:


> Another fine choice. Extremely well sampled & scripted, with a large range of tone shaping controls available. Plays very consistently and dynamically. Quite a dry studio sampled piano, so needs some well chosen Reverb to give it air & space/depth.


This looks really awesome as well! Hmm it doesn't require a USB dongle like VSL...that's very appealing for sure. I was a bit put-off by having to buy a dongle for VSL (I already have iLok and dislike it), but I would put up with it for their amazing libraries.

Any insight on how the Bechstein differs from the VSL Synchron ones? On this note, where does NI's Noire compare to Bechstein and VSL Synchron pianos? Are they on the same league? I have to say I was pretty enticed by Noire's particle engine and the felt option, but those are not as important as how the library response to my playing of course.


----------



## CGR (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> Oh my god Kimiko's recordings of Bach is my favorite, especially the WTC. I have never heard Bach's WTC sounded better than Kimiko's recordings. Even Andras Schiff's are not close (just to me of course).
> 
> A high quality keyboard is in my wish list for sure, but so far I'm happy with my cheapo digital piano. WTC is not crazy fast but it's more about awkward finger positions so I'm doing okay.
> 
> ...



Kimiko's recording was initially made available for free, as part of the 'Open' Goldberg Variations recording project. The reason I suggested the VSL Bosendorfer Imperial is that the inherent character of Bosendorfer pianos is to have more of the fundamental tone in each note, with less of the complex overtones Steinway's have with their duplex scaling design. This would give you a clearer, more articulate sound better suited to Bach in my opinion, although of course the player & their technique is the main factor in the resulting sound.


----------



## CGR (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> This looks really awesome as well! Hmm it doesn't require a USB dongle like VSL...that's very appealing for sure. I was a bit put-off by having to buy a dongle for VSL (I already have iLok and dislike it), but I would put up with it for their amazing libraries.
> 
> Any insight on how the Bechstein differs from the VSL Synchron ones? On this note, where does NI's Noire compare to Bechstein and VSL Synchron pianos? Are they on the same league? I have to say I was pretty enticed by Noire's particle engine and the felt option, but those are not as important as how the library response to my playing of course.


The C.Bechstein took a very different approach to sampling & scripting compared to VSL. The C.Bechstein Digital was sampled in a dry, non-reverberant space at Teldex Studios, with only 3 mic sets/perspectives. Their idea being you can control the ambience better, and have more flexibility in shaping your tone. This works very well, and the piano can cover a huge range of applications/styles, but the results of sampling a piano in a large space with good acoustics like the Synchron Stage or Abbey Road is hard to replicate by adding reverb & processing to a dry piano sound, as there is so much complexity going on with early & late reflections, and the notes 'mingling' in the space.


----------



## Tim_Wells (May 26, 2020)

CGR said:


> Another fine choice. Extremely well sampled & scripted, with a large range of tone shaping controls available. Plays very consistently and dynamically. Quite a dry studio sampled piano, so needs some well chosen Reverb to give it air & space/depth.


What are your thoughts on the Embertone Walker 1955 Concert D?


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

CGR said:


> The C.Bechstein took a very different approach to sampling & scripting compared to VSL. The C.Bechstein Digital was sampled in a dry, non-reverberant space at Teldex Studios, with only 3 mic sets/perspectives. Their idea being you can control the ambience better, and have more flexibility in shaping your tone. This works very well, and the piano can cover a huge range of applications/styles, but the results of sampling a piano in a large space with good acoustics like the Synchron Stage or Abbey Road is hard to replicate by adding reverb & processing to a dry piano sound, as there is so much complexity going on with early & late reflections, and the notes 'mingling' in the space.


Thanks so much for your info! It's very helpful and much appreciated


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

Ásta Jónsdóttir said:


> I tried Pianoteq last year and felt the same way. It sounded very synthesized.
> 
> I also tried this very affordable VSTi Piano called True Pianos
> 
> ...


Very interesting! Thanks for mentioning it. Does it feel good to use it for playing/practicing? Does it respond like a real piano?


----------



## tack (May 26, 2020)

It's worth pointing out that different Pianoteq pianos can sound radically different. For example, the Bluethner is worlds apart from the Steinway B. (My favorite Pianoteq model is the Bluethner.)

For a classical pianist looking for something to practice with, I daresay everything is going to disappoint _except_ modeled pianos like Pianoteq. Personally, I simply can't abide the pedalling behavior of sampled-based pianos for any serious playing.

The Vintage D remains, even today, my preferred choice among the sample-based pianos I've tried and its pedalling feel is pretty damn good for samples, which I would call "_ok_". But even then it's just not possible to sculpt your performance with the pedal like you can with Pianoteq.

For practice, IMO, it's no contest. For recording, I'd prefer Vintage D because it really does sound great. You'll just need to make compromises on how you perform and, as with all sample-based piano VIs, treat it with kid gloves in terms of how you approach pedalling.

Pianoteq has a demo mode. No reason not to try it and see how you get on with it.


----------



## Lee Blaske (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> *TL;DR - I'm a classical pianist who mainly plays Bach, and I'm looking for a piano sample library that will respond as close to a real piano as possible for practicing on a digital piano. I want lots of velocity layers (very deep sampling), half-pedaling, and really good velocity response.*
> 
> Hi! I'm a pianist who practices at home with a Casio CDP-130. Really cheap stuff I know, but it sounds (in headphones) and feels realistic to me, at least compared to my upright.
> 
> ...



I haven't read all the responses, so maybe someone might have already mentioned this, but the best piano library in the world will not feel good (i.e. responsive and predictable) under your fingers UNLESS you are playing it with a HIGH QUALITY keyboard controller (e.g. something on the level of a Kawai VPC1). 

The problem with less expensive keyboards, even if they *feel* somewhat okay under your fingers as you play is that they are not made with precision. The velocity response will be different from note to note, sometimes varying widely. In other words, if you were to play with the exact same force going from note to note, the velocity numbers will be different, because of poor quality construction. Selecting a different velocity curve will not fix this problem. It's a manufacturing problem, and you get what you pay for. 

Some keyboards are worse than others, but the inexpensive ones are usually quite bad when it comes to note-to-note velocity calibration. I've found Fatar actions (found in many keyboard brands) to be really bad. As inexpensive keyboards age, they can also get a lot worse.

So, if you get the feeling that when you play expressively, and you're not hearing what you think you're playing, look first to the quality of the keyboard action. Most likely, if you're using one of the higher quality sample libraries, the problem is not with the sample library. A different library will not fix the problem you're experiencing.


----------



## Fleer (May 26, 2020)

For Bach, I’d pick the Embertone Walker or the Bechstein Digital. But definitely also try the latter’s implementation by Pianoteq. It’s their best for Bach, IMO.
As for the FP-30 action, it’s interesting to note that Roland’s new RD-88 stage piano has the same keybed.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

tack said:


> It's worth pointing out that different Pianoteq pianos can sound radically different. For example, the Bluethner is worlds apart from the Steinway B. (My favorite Pianoteq model is the Bluethner.)
> 
> For a classical pianist looking for something to practice with, I daresay everything is going to disappoint _except_ modeled pianos like Pianoteq. Personally, I simply can't abide the pedalling behavior of sampled-based pianos for any serious playing.
> 
> ...



I did give Pianoteq's trial a try today! The response was very good, but I couldn't get past the synthetic sounding samples. I did try various models (or are they presets?), including the Steinway Prelude, the Steinway Classical, most of the "Recording" ones. Some were better than the other but I wasn't satisfied with any, unfortunately. The binaural mode was super intriguing though; under that mode, it did sound like I was physically in front of an acoustic piano if I close my eyes. I wish more piano libraries had a binaural mode. That would be killer for practicing.

Because I mostly play Bach, I barely touch the sustain pedal, so that's really low in priority for me.

When you said Vintage D, are you referring to the one in Pianoteq? Or the Galaxy Vintage D?


----------



## tack (May 26, 2020)

Yeah, Galaxy Vintage D.

I understand what you mean about the sound of Pianoteq. I don't like any of the Steinway models from Pianoteq either. The Bluethner is the only one I'm able to get along with, and then combined with the unparalleled responsiveness it's all I use for practice.


----------



## Fleer (May 26, 2020)

Yeah, the Blüthner is my preferred Pianoteq grand too, though not for Bach.


----------



## AllanH (May 26, 2020)

My two favorites: Pianoteq/Bluethner and the Garritan CFX. Your 88-key controller is very important in getting a good feel and its velocity curve must match your playing style and expectations.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

Lee Blaske said:


> I haven't read all the responses, so maybe someone might have already mentioned this, but the best piano library in the world will not feel good (i.e. responsive and predictable) under your fingers UNLESS you are playing it with a HIGH QUALITY keyboard controller (e.g. something on the level of a Kawai VPC1).
> 
> The problem with less expensive keyboards, even if they *feel* somewhat okay under your fingers as you play is that they are not made with precision. The velocity response will be different from note to note, sometimes varying widely. In other words, if you were to play with the exact same force going from note to note, the velocity numbers will be different, because of poor quality construction. Selecting a different velocity curve will not fix this problem. It's a manufacturing problem, and you get what you pay for.
> 
> ...


I did mention that I always wondered how much the keyboard plays a factor in this, but because I don't know much about the specs of keyboards in general, I was never sure. It's good to know it does play a big factor in it.

I'm saving up for a keyboard upgrade in the future—do you have any recommendations? What kind of keybed feels the closest to a real piano?

I want to get a MIDI controller or a synthesizer with at the very least a modwheel and a pitch wheel, because apart from practicing the piano, I also want to use the keyboard for composing and songwriting purposes. I thought the Komplete Kontrol S88 would be the one to go until I read here that the Fatar keybed doesn't feel like a real piano.


----------



## Fleer (May 26, 2020)

If you want a MIDI controller AND a piano AND a synth PLUS speakers, have a look at Roland’s RD-88. I just got it in. Sweet.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 26, 2020)

Fleer said:


> If you want a MIDI controller AND a piano AND a synth PLUS speakers, have a look at Roland’s RD-88. I just got it in. Sweet.


As I read the first half of the sentence, I was so afraid what was coming would be "you are shit out of luck!" haha.

I just stumbled upon the RD-88 today because I read that it is a recent release by Roland. Its keybed is close to a real piano?

I don't really need speakers, will that give me more options to choose from?


----------



## Lee Blaske (May 26, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> I did mention that I always wondered how much the keyboard plays a factor in this, but because I don't know much about the specs of keyboards in general, I was never sure. It's good to know it does play a big factor in it.
> 
> I'm saving up for a keyboard upgrade in the future—do you have any recommendations? What kind of keybed feels the closest to a real piano?
> 
> I want to get a MIDI controller or a synthesizer with at the very least a modwheel and a pitch wheel, because apart from practicing the piano, I also want to use the keyboard for composing and songwriting purposes. I thought the Komplete Kontrol S88 would be the one to go until I read here that the Fatar keybed doesn't feel like a real piano.



For actual piano playing, I REALLY love the Kawai VPC1. It has real wooden keys, and a mechanical action that faithfully emulates a real grand piano action (if you slowly depress the key, you can feel the "bump" that you'd feel on a real piano).

Other than that, I haven't tried it yet, but I've read glowing reports about the feel and construction of the new Roland A88 MkII (it's half the price of the Kawai). The A88 MkII is one of the first MIDI 2.0 products out there, and MIDI 2.0 promises greater accuracy (assuming the keyboard construction is good). The A88 Mk2 is also a graduated action, heavier on the low notes, lighter on the high notes, like a real piano. So check that one out. I've heard reviewers say it's the same action as in the Roland RD88, but that it feels better because the A88 MkII case has more mass with its MDF bottom than the RD88.

So, see if you can check those two out. You might watch eBay and Craigslist for a good, used Kawai VPC1 in your area (they're quite heavy, so people don't like to ship them).


----------



## JJHLH (May 26, 2020)

I like the Pianoteq Bluethner as well.


----------



## Fleer (May 26, 2020)

I’m also sure a Kawai VPC1 would have a better action than the RD-88. 
On the other hand, the RD-88 has the same action as the Roland FP-60 and that’s a good one. If you don’t need internal sounds or speakers, definitely look into controllers like the new Roland A88 Mk2, as Lee suggested. Personally I don’t like MDF bottoms, though I concede they do render a better mass ratio for playing. But the reasons I opted for the RD-88 also included the presence of 3000 Fantom Zen Core sounds and MainStage compatibility.


----------



## Rory (May 26, 2020)

There are quite a few YouTube videos on the Kawai VPC1. Starting at 02:45, the fellow who made this review plays VI Labs's Ravenscroft 275 with it. Incidentally, in addition to the Bechstein Digital Grand mentioned earlier, I also have VI Labs's "German Piano". Less well-known than VI Labs's Ravenscroft, this is also a Bechstein, and also very nice to play.


----------



## Lee Blaske (May 26, 2020)

BTW, speaking of the Kawai VPC1 and Ravenscroft, there is the special, tweaked model of the Kawai VPC1 that Ravenscroft sells for about 2.5x's the price of the VPC1. Supposedly, they put 40 hours of work into it. I'd be curious to know how different it feels for that price, because on its own, the VPC1 is really, really nice. It's as nice as I need (especially since I also have a real Yamaha CFIII). 

Ravenscroft keyboard link here... https://ravenworksdigital.com/product/the-studio-model-i/


----------



## Rory (May 26, 2020)

Lee Blaske said:


> BTW, speaking of the Kawai VPC1 and Ravenscroft, there is the special, tweaked model of the Kawai VPC1 that Ravenscroft sells for about 2.5x's the price of the VPC1. Supposedly, they put 40 hours of work into it. I'd be curious to know how different it feels for that price, because on its own, the VPC1 is really, really nice. It's as nice as I need (especially since I also have a real Yamaha CFIII).
> 
> Ravenscroft keyboard link here... https://ravenworksdigital.com/product/the-studio-model-i/



That is pretty cool. Your link has a YouTube NAMM video on the Ravenscroft modification to the VPC1 and the VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 library.

VI Labs seems to have been a one-shot company. It released all of its pianos around about the same time. I purchased the "German Piano" because I just preferred it, although it wasn't as popular as the others. VI Labs still exists, indeed I had an exchange with it last week, but it's kind of mysterious. I've always been curious to know more about it.

Anyway, here's the old NAMM video:


----------



## newman (May 26, 2020)

Rory said:


> VI Labs seems to have been a one-shot company. It released all of its pianos around about the same time. I purchased the "German Piano" because I just preferred it, although it wasn't as popular as the others. VI Labs still exists, indeed I had an exchange with it last week, but it's kind of mysterious. I've always been curious to know more about it.


Noooo! VI LABS just released a Yamaha U3 in 2020. This is very well liked at the PianoWorld forums by classical musicians.

They also released an iOS version of the Ravenscroft maybe a year or two ago.

There are rumours of another piano VI in the foundry.





__





Modern U






www.vilabsaudio.com






Ravenscroft 275 iOS


----------



## Rory (May 26, 2020)

newman said:


> Noooo! VI LABS just released a Yamaha U3 in 2020. This is very well liked at the PianoWorld forums by classical musicians.
> 
> They also released an iOS version of the Ravenscroft maybe a year or two ago.
> 
> ...



Cool, just checked the web site, the Yamaha is the first product that VI Labs has released in at least seven years. All of the True Keys pianos and the Ravenscroft were released in about 2012/2013. This Sound on Sound review of the True Keys pianos was published in August of 2013: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/vi-labs-true-keys-pianos The web site looks pretty much like it did then 

It's not exactly a high-profile company. Hence my curiosity, as an early True Keys purchaser, about whether anyone knows the history.


----------



## shawnsingh (May 26, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Bösendorfer has a much wider color palette than other pianos, which is exceedingly useful for controlling multiple lines of polyphony. Tiny adjustments to timing and velocity during a _live_ VSL Bösendorfer performance of even the most dense polyphonic passages yield clarity an order of magnitude greater than other virtual pianos.



Yeah this had been my experience with EWQL pianos Bosendorfer when I used that piano previously. Combined with compressing the MIDI dynamic range, it's possible to really over-emphasize the change in color from soft to strong which easily adds to the emotion. I'm very happy you're saying this is a trait of Bosendorfer in general, I always wondered if it was simply some property of how EWQL had sampled it. So if VSL has the same property - then it's going to be my new favorite VST piano!


----------



## Ashermusic (May 26, 2020)

I prefer hardware for serious practicing to software instruments. My Dexibell Vivo S7 is perfect for this. Feels great , sounds great, and the pedaling works as I want it to.

A lot better than the Wurlitzer spinets I practiced on in the Boston Conservatory of Music practice rooms in the late ‘60’s


----------



## Lee Blaske (May 26, 2020)

newman said:


> Noooo! VI LABS just released a Yamaha U3 in 2020. This is very well liked at the PianoWorld forums by classical musicians.
> 
> They also released an iOS version of the Ravenscroft maybe a year or two ago.
> 
> ...



Hadn't heard of the Modern U. Sounds very impressive.


----------



## Rory (May 26, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I prefer hardware for serious practicing to software instruments. My Dexibell Vivo S7 is perfect for this. Feels great , sounds great, and the pedaling works as I want it to.
> 
> A lot better than the Wurlitzer spinets I practiced on in the Boston Conservatory of Music practice rooms in the late ‘60’s



You reviewed it on Ask.Audio: https://ask.audio/articles/review-dexibell-vivo-s7-digital-piano


----------



## Tim_Wells (May 27, 2020)

A few years back I switched from guitar as my main instrument... to piano/keys. I own all the NI piano libraries, except Noire. 

Why do I like the sound of my old Yamaha S80 pianos better than all my sample libraries?!

It's true that it doesn't sound as much like a real piano. But the sound is more pristine and clean. Especially on any closely spaced phrases. There's no notes clashing with each other and warbling.


----------



## Ashermusic (May 27, 2020)

Rory said:


> You reviewed it on Ask.Audio: https://ask.audio/articles/review-dexibell-vivo-s7-digital-piano



I did indeed, and if you see any of my Facebook Live shows, you hear it. I am going to be a guest on their June 7 webinar.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

Lee Blaske said:


> For actual piano playing, I REALLY love the Kawai VPC1. It has real wooden keys, and a mechanical action that faithfully emulates a real grand piano action (if you slowly depress the key, you can feel the "bump" that you'd feel on a real piano).
> 
> Other than that, I haven't tried it yet, but I've read glowing reports about the feel and construction of the new Roland A88 MkII (it's half the price of the Kawai). The A88 MkII is one of the first MIDI 2.0 products out there, and MIDI 2.0 promises greater accuracy (assuming the keyboard construction is good). The A88 Mk2 is also a graduated action, heavier on the low notes, lighter on the high notes, like a real piano. So check that one out. I've heard reviewers say it's the same action as in the Roland RD88, but that it feels better because the A88 MkII case has more mass with its MDF bottom than the RD88.
> 
> So, see if you can check those two out. You might watch eBay and Craigslist for a good, used Kawai VPC1 in your area (they're quite heavy, so people don't like to ship them).


Thanks for the information! The A88 MkII looks awesome, though I don't like that it doesn't have a traditional modwheel. Other than A88 MkII, are there other keyboards that have widely been considered to have the real piano feel in the market so far? Just want to get a better sense of the landscape. I heard good things about Nord's keyboards from a concert pianist as well. I feel so overwhelmed and lost haha


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

Fleer said:


> I’m also sure a Kawai VPC1 would have a better action than the RD-88.
> On the other hand, the RD-88 has the same action as the Roland FP-60 and that’s a good one. If you don’t need internal sounds or speakers, definitely look into controllers like the new Roland A88 Mk2, as Lee suggested. Personally I don’t like MDF bottoms, though I concede they do render a better mass ratio for playing. But the reasons I opted for the RD-88 also included the presence of 3000 Fantom Zen Core sounds and MainStage compatibility.


Does the Kawai VPC1's keyboard feel close to a real piano?

Also, what does MDF refer to?


----------



## Buz (May 27, 2020)

It's really worth trying a VPC1. If you play classical it's not exactly a piano replacement, but it's about as good as you're going to get short of a silencing system. So it's a great way to get perspective on the market.


----------



## SupremeFist (May 27, 2020)

My main piano is a Kawai CA97, which iirc is one step up from the VPC1 in terms of action. But for a midi controller I highly recommend the Roland FP10, which has the exact same action as its more expensive 30 and 60 brethren. That plus a separate small midi controller for modwheel etc is imo the best you can get for under a grand.


----------



## CatOrchestra (May 27, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> Does the Kawai VPC1's keyboard feel close to a real piano?
> 
> Also, what does MDF refer to?


 had me sold


----------



## Rory (May 27, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> what does MDF refer to?



Medium-density Fiberboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard


----------



## marius_dm (May 27, 2020)

I have a first-gen A88 and I’m using Spectrasonics Keyscape. It feels pretty close to the Yamaha grand piano I play occasionally except the A88 has heavier action.


----------



## Lee Blaske (May 27, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> Thanks for the information! The A88 MkII looks awesome, though I don't like that it doesn't have a traditional modwheel. Other than A88 MkII, are there other keyboards that have widely been considered to have the real piano feel in the market so far? Just want to get a better sense of the landscape. I heard good things about Nord's keyboards from a concert pianist as well. I feel so overwhelmed and lost haha



I believe a lot of the Nord keyboards use Fatar key actions. I've had some experiences with Nord keyboards being inconsistent. YMMV, but for me, if the keyboard has a Fatar action, I'm not interested.


----------



## Pianolando (May 27, 2020)

Garritan CFX is extremely playable, much more so than for instance Embertone Walker in my opinion. The CFX is extremely clean, but that makes it’s response very predictable and that makes playing easier. It’s also easier on the CPU and you can easily run both close and far mics at the same time. So that gets my recommendation.

EDIT: both these pianos is in a different league than Keyscape C9. That one is much more inconsistent and has fewer layers. I do love keyscape for vintage and odd keys, but it definitely cannot compete with the best dedicated grand piano libraries.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> In the new VSL Synchron Bösendorfer Imperial, there are presets suited for both concert and player perspectives.
> 
> Each of these are excellent starting points.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input! Guess the Bosenndorfer Imperial will be the one to go if I go with VSL. Schiff did say that clarify is key when playing Bach


----------



## CGR (May 27, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> What are your thoughts on the Embertone Walker 1955 Concert D?


Sorry Tim - just saw your post. I'm a fan of the Embertone Walker D. Apart from the standard/default mics, I have the Hammer, Binaural & Room mic sets. First time I played the Walker D it reminded me tonally of Cinesamples Piano in Blue, but with a wider dynamic range and better playability. Both are 50's era New York Steinways, and they have a very distinct, "swirling" sustain & resonance that sounds very interesting and gives the tone a lot of depth. Many modern grands (real & sampled) have a very clean hammer attack and linear sustain, but can sound a bit sterile, so it's a welcome alternative to those. I've probably posted other thoughts on various threads here if you want to do a search.


----------



## Cathbad (May 27, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> *TL;DR Bach*



I don't have any useful suggestions. I just approve of your choice of repertoire.

I really really really really really love Bach. If I could only listen to Bach for the rest of my life, I wouldn't be too disappointed.


----------



## Mason (May 27, 2020)

No love for Production Voices?


----------



## Fleer (May 27, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> I don't have any useful suggestions. I just approve of your choice of repertoire.
> 
> I really really really really really love Bach. If I could only listen to Bach for the rest of my life, I wouldn't be too disappointed.


^^^ This. 
Bach is god.


----------



## mekosmowski (May 27, 2020)

I've read that you like the responsiveness of Pianoteq, but not the tones that come with the trial. I enjoy the tone of the Grotrian. Have you listened to the demos of the other tones? You can pick which models you want if you purchase Pianoteq and do not have to use those which are included in the trial.


----------



## ptram (May 27, 2020)

I love to improvise with The Grandeur. It is extremely responsive, and despite its small size it sounds very good.

If I’m not at the computer, I improvise on my own piano.

Paolo


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

Cathbad said:


> I don't have any useful suggestions. I just approve of your choice of repertoire.
> 
> I really really really really really love Bach. If I could only listen to Bach for the rest of my life, I wouldn't be too disappointed.


Haha thank you! Bach is phenomenal. The best musician ever existed imo. His works are just something divine.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

Lee Blaske said:


> I believe a lot of the Nord keyboards use Fatar key actions. I've had some experiences with Nord keyboards being inconsistent. YMMV, but for me, if the keyboard has a Fatar action, I'm not interested.


One big takeaway I got from this thread and from other threads about digital pianos is that Fatar action doesn't resemble a real piano. It's really interesting because some companies boast that their keyboards have the Fatar action. For example, the Komplete Kontrol S88 boasts about the Fatar action on the product page.

Looks like the Roland ones are the ones I should be getting. It also seems like I should upgrade my keyboard first before getting more piano libraries. If a better keyboard will help with the velocity response like you said, maybe with a new keyboard, NI's The Gentleman (a piano library I have) will work fine.


----------



## Rory (May 27, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> One big takeaway I got from this thread and from other threads about digital pianos is that Fatar action doesn't resemble a real piano. It's really interesting because some companies boast that their keyboards have the Fatar action. For example, the Komplete Kontrol S88 boasts about the Fatar action on the product page.
> 
> Looks like the Roland ones are the ones I should be getting. It also seems like I should upgrade my keyboard first before getting more piano libraries. If a better keyboard will help with the velocity response like you said, maybe with a new keyboard, NI's The Gentleman (a piano library I have) will work fine.



Yes. Also, in case you aren't aware of it, one of the participants in this thread has failed to volunteer that he has been paid by VSL to endorse its new piano. Acknowledging payment for an endorsement, whether in cash or via free product, is now standard on on platforms like YouTube, in part because in the U.S. and a number of other countries it is required by law, not to mention basic ethics. One participant in this forum, to his credit, says in all of his posts that he has received free product from a VI vendor.

In this thread, neither VSL nor the person it hired to help promote the piano, both participating in the thread, has acknowledged the paid relationship.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> My main piano is a Kawai CA97, which iirc is one step up from the VPC1 in terms of action. But for a midi controller I highly recommend the Roland FP10, which has the exact same action as its more expensive 30 and 60 brethren. That plus a separate small midi controller for modwheel etc is imo the best you can get for under a grand.


Wow, I was just curious about what keyboard was used in this video, because it looks so minimalist and simple, and it happens to be the FP10! I love how simple it is. I won't need any complicated drum pads or whatever, since I will mostly use it for practicing and writing (mostly orchestral) music.

I wonder how the action of FP10 feels compared to the A88 MKII?


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

mekosmowski said:


> I've read that you like the responsiveness of Pianoteq, but not the tones that come with the trial. I enjoy the tone of the Grotrian. Have you listened to the demos of the other tones? You can pick which models you want if you purchase Pianoteq and do not have to use those which are included in the trial.


Yeah I went through most of the presets when using the trial, and all of them sound a bit too synthetic too me somehow, at least compared to the stock sounds of my digital piano and Logic's stock Steinway.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

Rory said:


> Yes. Also, in case you aren't aware of it, one of the participants in this thread has failed to volunteer that he has been paid by VSL to endorse its new piano. Acknowledging payment for an endorsement, whether in cash or via free product, is now standard on on platforms like YouTube, in part because in the U.S. and a number of other countries it is required by law, not to mention basic ethics. One participant in this forum, to his credit, says in all of his posts that he has received free product from a VI vendor.
> 
> In this thread, neither VSL nor the person it hired to help promote the piano, both participating in the thread, has acknowledged the paid relationship.


Thanks for the heads up! I only recently discovered this forum so I wasn't aware that there were people who were paid to promote products here. Good to keep in mind!


----------



## SupremeFist (May 27, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> I wonder how the action of FP10 feels compared to the A88 MKII?


I believe it is exactly the same action.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 27, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> I believe it is exactly the same action.



Yes they both have the "PHA-4 Standard Keyboard: with Escapement and Ivory Feel" keyboard. However, Lee Blaske said this:



> I've heard reviewers say it's the same action as in the Roland RD88, but that it feels better because the A88 MkII case has more mass with its MDF bottom than the RD88.



It seems that having the same keybed doesn't necessarily mean they will feel the same. Wish things were simpler haha.


----------



## Fleer (May 28, 2020)

Indeed it seems many hammer actions have MDF underneath, which probably improves the actual feel of the action. Personally, however, I prefer a plastic or metal bottom as in the RD-88, FP-10, FP-30 (and FP-60?).


----------



## Fleer (May 28, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> My grandfather was amateur violinist and recounts an interesting exchange with a chemistry professor in the late 1940s. The professor asserted that music "ended" with Bach.
> 
> Presumably, in this professor existed an inordinate penchant for the naked relationships of pitch with their consequent manipulation of consonance and dissonance. "Naked," as the emphasis of other axioms of music, timbre, volume, and rhythm, in Bach's music are given secondary consideration. Ranking pitch and harmony above the other building blocks of music is a curious postulation for a man of science.
> 
> ...


Wonderful story.


----------



## Peter Williams (May 28, 2020)

Interesting thread! We all want to find that perfect piano combination, and it doesn't really exist, as we always want something better. For myself, I like the Roland piano action on their best keyboards, and I like the velocity responsiveness of the Pianoteq pianos, especially the Bluthner. I agree that there is a certain graininess to the sound. A little of the right reverb and delay can help to reduce that effect. But the real problem for this technology is the lack of a realistic surround speaker system. You can chase the issue by getting expensive monitor systems with surround sound, but it's just not there yet (you probably need to add some passive radiators to the ceiling). The Embertone approach was to sample a well used instrument and add some controls for mechanical noises and the like. It's not much to my liking, but many players really love it. It reminds me a bit of the better virtual Hammond organ vsts, where flaws such as grit, key click and leakage are treated as advantages. Just think a little more about Bach and less about the instrument. He had to play with lesser tools, even if pretty pictures were painted on them.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 28, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> My grandfather was amateur violinist and recounts an interesting exchange with a chemistry professor in the late 1940s. The professor asserted that music "ended" with Bach.
> 
> Presumably, in this professor existed an inordinate penchant for the naked relationships of pitch with their consequent manipulation of consonance and dissonance. "Naked," as the emphasis of other axioms of music, timbre, volume, and rhythm, in Bach's music are given secondary consideration. Ranking pitch and harmony above the other building blocks of music is a curious postulation for a man of science.
> 
> ...


Interesting story! I would not dare to make statements like "music ended with Bach" because to many, and even to myself, that's a bit too elitist. Music is not science and it is to be enjoyed. If most people enjoy the mainstream music that is today, then that's their music. I do feel that in order to enjoy classical music, one needs to kind of understand at least some music theory because you kind of need know what you are listening for because classical music is often more complex than the everyday 4-chord pop song. I remember the first time I listened to a fugue and I thought it just sounded like a whole bunch of pretty notes and harmonies, but once I learned what a fugue was, being able to listen for the subject and answer really changed the entire listening experience.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 28, 2020)

@Lee Blaske I read that you really love the VPC1. I wonder if you, or anyone, have any insights on how the action of VPC1 compares to the Roland FP series?


----------



## Buz (May 28, 2020)

I tried many recently (including Roland, Yamaha and all the hybrids, VPC1 and its higher relatives). After that you know exactly what you value with confidence, but others come to totally different conclusions. So many different requirements... backgrounds... preferences. You might have to just throw some time at it.


----------



## Peter Williams (May 28, 2020)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Have you tried the Dolby ATMOS Production Suite in Binaural mode?


Likely I've only heard it with DVDs or in a theater. Something like that approaches what I was speculating pretty well.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 28, 2020)

Buz said:


> I tried many recently (including Roland, Yamaha and all the hybrids, VPC1 and its higher relatives). After that you know exactly what you value with confidence, but others come to totally different conclusions. So many different requirements... backgrounds... preferences. You might have to just throw some time at it.


That makes sense because even with acoustic pianos, the actions can feel very different. But despite the different preferences, it seems that most people agree that Fatar keybed does not resemble that of a real piano's, so there is a tipping point.

In your experience, how does Roland's PHA-4 Standard keybed compare to VPC1's in terms of resemblance to an acoustic piano?


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 28, 2020)

Peter Williams said:


> Interesting thread! We all want to find that perfect piano combination, and it doesn't really exist, as we always want something better. For myself, I like the Roland piano action on their best keyboards, and I like the velocity responsiveness of the Pianoteq pianos, especially the Bluthner. I agree that there is a certain graininess to the sound. A little of the right reverb and delay can help to reduce that effect. But the real problem for this technology is the lack of a realistic surround speaker system. You can chase the issue by getting expensive monitor systems with surround sound, but it's just not there yet (you probably need to add some passive radiators to the ceiling). The Embertone approach was to sample a well used instrument and add some controls for mechanical noises and the like. It's not much to my liking, but many players really love it. It reminds me a bit of the better virtual Hammond organ vsts, where flaws such as grit, key click and leakage are treated as advantages. Just think a little more about Bach and less about the instrument. He had to play with lesser tools, even if pretty pictures were painted on them.


I think for me, the realistic surround speaker system is getting too overkill. I think the binaural mode in Pianoteq is on to something, shame that I didn't like the sound.


----------



## Tim_Wells (May 28, 2020)

Buz said:


> I tried many recently (including Roland, Yamaha and all the hybrids, VPC1 and its higher relatives). After that you know exactly what you value with confidence, but others come to totally different conclusions. So many different requirements... backgrounds... preferences. You might have to just throw some time at it.


Yeah... think this is exactly right. Everyone values something a little different. Putting time in is key.

In my case, I haven't played a real piano in many years and was never classically trained. Cut my teeth playing pop/rock & country music on the guitar in clubs. Fast forward to today, I've become very
accustomed and familiar with the pianos on my old Yamaha S80. That's what sounds and feels right, even though it's lacking in realism.

This thread got me experimenting and I believe I can get NI Grandeur to work for me... or possibly a blending of Grandeur and my S80. I'm sure some would recoil in horror...


----------



## Peter Williams (May 28, 2020)

Tim_Wells said:


> Yeah... think this is exactly right. Everyone values something a little different. Putting time in is key.
> 
> In my case, I haven't played a real piano in many years and was never classically trained. Cut my teeth playing pop/rock & country music on the guitar in clubs. Fast forward to today, I've become very
> accustomed and familiar with the pianos on my old Yamaha S80. That's what sounds and feels right, even though it's lacking in realism.
> ...


No horrors at all. I still like the hybrid NI grand that came with the Acoustik Piano product. I tweaked it to enable more sustain and it still sounds fine in a mix. It doesn't have as many velocity layers as some of the newest offerings, but it has an overall tone and balance that is pleasing to me. I prefer the playability of the Pianotek Steinway, but it's just a tiny bit off at times with that bit of grainy sound in the upper register that nearly all modeled instruments seem to have (to date). Grainy might not be the right word to describe it--maybe more like rapid flashes of sound, or maybe I'm just losing my mind. But so many of them sound good to me, and different instruments fit different settings.


----------



## ptram (May 28, 2020)

Fleer said:


> Personally I don’t like MDF bottoms


They have the advantage of not cracking or bending, though.

Paolo


----------



## ptram (May 28, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> One big takeaway I got from this thread and from other threads about digital pianos is that Fatar action doesn't resemble a real piano. It's really interesting because some companies boast that their keyboards have the Fatar action.


Fatar makes several models, that can be deeply customized. For example, I think the extremely advanced Lachnit MK-22 uses a Fatar TP/40W, but with their own sensors. At the company I work for, we design part of the system when using their keyboards. They are highly customizable. So, how good a Fatar keyboard can be depends largely on how the instrument's manufacturer uses it.

Paolo


----------



## SupremeFist (May 31, 2020)

CGR said:


> Sorry Tim - just saw your post. I'm a fan of the Embertone Walker D. Apart from the standard/default mics, I have the Hammer, Binaural & Room mic sets. First time I played the Walker D it reminded me tonally of Cinesamples Piano in Blue, but with a wider dynamic range and better playability. Both are 50's era New York Steinways, and they have a very distinct, "swirling" sustain & resonance that sounds very interesting and gives the tone a lot of depth. Many modern grands (real & sampled) have a very clean hammer attack and linear sustain, but can sound a bit sterile, so it's a welcome alternative to those. I've probably posted other thoughts on various threads here if you want to do a search.


I don't know why but I only just tried the hammer mics on the Walker (had been defaulting to Close) and they are absolutely glorious for an intimate sound!


----------



## johngrant (May 31, 2020)

I like your C major Fugue bk 1! The WTClavier: Clavier="keyboard" literally.... any keyboard. We know what JSB played on: organ (various, all with different keyboard actions; but probably not all that different from most modern non-weighted keyboards) harpsichord (single manual, double manual); an early version of the modern piano. Basically, he played on whatever was available. So from that perspective I suppose almost ANY keyboard would suffice. Arguably, it's not a bad thing to have to practice JS on a cheap non-weighted keyboard, because that's not all that far from the sort of keyboard feel MR. Bach would have used himself.

Also, his music is pretty cerebral, composed in the mind more than "at the keyboard." (At least, it seems that way... don't ask me for evidence!) Probably why some folks are happier with electronic (Wendy Carlos etc) Bach than with Bach played by human hands. Piano VSTs coupled with MIDI give us something of both worlds. You can record your manual, finger-mind Bach; you can MIDI edit that, or you can do pure MIDI, and edit that too obviously.

The other JG said it all above. My 2 cents is that if keyboard action is important, then you need a dedicated controller with an authentic piano action: RM3 II with let-off is what I finally gravitated to. Identical to any real grand piano action, but on the light side... which is fine for Bach.

But, as JG said above, that will still never be close to playing a real piano. The action is there, but you don't get the complete physical/auditory experience of playing a real piano.

But you can still have a lot of useful practice AND fun. Once you have a FATAR or whatever controller you think you can live with for 10 years--real piano action, if you can pay for it--then the rest is easy/hard. "Easy" because if, you're like me, you ear accommodates to even the worst piano vst pretty quickly. There's a natural "lag" between pressing the key and hearing the sound, even in a real piano. But I find the FASTER the piano response, the more realistic the feel. That's what makes PIANOTEQ kind of addictive, and mem/cpu demanding more accurate vsts unsatisfying to play. The end-result or recording might sound indistinguishable from a pro piano recording, but (as you've noticed), that end-result has no relation to what you thought you played in.

So--to state the obvious--the faster the cpu, ssd, and mem--the more choices are open to you.

JG hits the proverbial nail on the head when he says (I think he said it) that its very, very hard to actually demo different VSTs. And, really, no one agrees on which VST is the "best" for playing purposes. If you're thinking "end-result" ..."does the recording of my playing sound as good as a modern Barenboim recording, or at least as good as a dated Gould/Columbia analogue-era recording?" that's actually EASIER to determine. All the Piano vsts have demos, occasionally some Bach, and they give you a pretty good idea of what the vst will sound like AS RECORDED.

TRAP: "as recorded" or the "demo" sound says ZERO about playability, which as you point out is about evenness, quickness, and over-all accuracy of response. I've heard good things about the Synchron VSL's playability. It's a "next generation" type of sample, and to my ears at least, more accurate or "real" (all subjective, in the end) than the earlier piano vsts, almost all of which I own and NONE of which I use. I recall, years and years ago, liking the response and feel of the old Galaxy Steinway, particularly above c5. But I'm pretty sure that vst has been bettered by now. Still, you can get used to the sound (cynical but true, I think). So there's pianoteq, which doesn't sound much like a real piano to me, but which plays very, very tightly and convincingly. Contradiction, I know.


----------



## HokageKakashi (May 31, 2020)

johngrant said:


> I like your C major Fugue bk 1! The WTClavier: Clavier="keyboard" literally.... any keyboard. We know what JSB played on: organ (various, all with different keyboard actions; but probably not all that different from most modern non-weighted keyboards) harpsichord (single manual, double manual); an early version of the modern piano. Basically, he played on whatever was available. So from that perspective I suppose almost ANY keyboard would suffice. Arguably, it's not a bad thing to have to practice JS on a cheap non-weighted keyboard, because that's not all that far from the sort of keyboard feel MR. Bach would have used himself.
> 
> Also, his music is pretty cerebral, composed in the mind more than "at the keyboard." (At least, it seems that way... don't ask me for evidence!) Probably why some folks are happier with electronic (Wendy Carlos etc) Bach than with Bach played by human hands. Piano VSTs coupled with MIDI give us something of both worlds. You can record your manual, finger-mind Bach; you can MIDI edit that, or you can do pure MIDI, and edit that too obviously.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you like my playing! Yeah I do realize that playing a digital piano will never be the same as playing on a real piano, but I'm trying find a keyboard and piano VST combo that will give me the closest experience, since I won't have a real piano to practice for least another year or so, especially given the covid situation.

I agree that the demos on piano VST websites show nothing about playability! Which is why I find it so hard to figure out which digital piano/keyboard will give me that real piano experience I want.


----------



## Iswhatitis (Jun 2, 2020)

HokageKakashi said:


> *TL;DR - I'm a classical pianist who mainly plays Bach, and I'm looking for a piano sample library that will respond as close to a real piano as possible for practicing on a digital piano. I want lots of velocity layers (very deep sampling), half-pedaling, and really good velocity response.*
> 
> Hi! I'm a pianist who practices at home with a Casio CDP-130. Really cheap stuff I know, but it sounds (in headphones) and feels realistic to me, at least compared to my upright.
> 
> ...


VSL Synchron Pianos sound best to me but you need SSDs and a relatively fast computer. I also own Spitfire Orchestral Grand Piano, several Synthogy Ivory II Pianos, CinePiano, and Cinematic Studio Grand Piano, which also sound good but one's personal taste is always the deciding factor. But even the Synchron Pianos do not replace the sound of playing a real acoustic 9' grand piano.


----------



## HokageKakashi (Jun 2, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> VSL Synchron Pianos sound best to me but you need SSDs and a relatively fast computer. I also own Spitfire Orchestral Grand Piano, several Synthogy Ivory II Pianos, CinePiano, and Cinematic Studio Grand Piano, which also sound good but one's personal taste is always the deciding factor. But even the Synchron Pianos do not replace the sound of playing a real acoustic 9' grand piano.


I do have an SSD and my computer is built for audio production so I'm good on that front. I don't think any piano sample libraries can replace the experience of playing a real piano, but I would argue that high end piano sample libraries can very much sound better than a real piano recorded. I'm just looking for the best combination of digital piano and piano VST for a playing experience that's reminiscent of a real piano, since I won't have the luxury to regularly practice on a real piano anytime soon!


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 3, 2020)

There's a guy on YT that's been doing weekly live broadcasts trying every piano library he can get his hands on. He uses a StudioLogic SL88 Grand (Fatar TP/40W) and he starts with straight patch out of the box, then experiments. Here's him playing the Garritan CFX. And he can really PLAY so you'll get a decent demo. I'm totally sold on Garritan CFX after trying so many. It reproduces the C5-C7 range better, to my ears, than anything else.

Anyway, if you look at all of his vids in the last few months, you'll see vids for several, from Noire to PianoTeq. His latest is Emotional Piano. I thought I wasted my money on that last year... then I heard _him _play it, and realized my problem is the wizard, not the wand, lol. Methinks my next investment is advanced lessons, not another library.  Emotional Piano isn't what you're looking for, but point is that the fella doing the demos does them really well, so you'll have a good sampling of several libraries all played by the same player using the same gear, good comparison environment.

Anyway, good channel, worth checking out.


----------



## Simeon (Jun 3, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> There's a guy on YT that's been doing weekly live broadcasts trying every piano library he can get his hands on. He uses a StudioLogic SL88 Grand (Fatar TP/40W) and he starts with straight patch out of the box, then experiments. Here's him playing the Garritan CFX. And he can really PLAY so you'll get a decent demo. I'm totally sold on Garritan CFX after trying so many. It reproduces the C5-C7 range better, to my ears, than anything else.
> 
> Anyway, good channel, worth checking out.



Thank you so much for the kind words. There is just so much out there and I am so grateful to be able to share my experiences with all of you. I have a few libraries in the pipeline that I am very excited about.

There is a chance that I will be getting one of the newer Studiologic SL88 Grand controllers which I hope works out as my SL-880’s main board is failing. I am really looking forward to the possibility of experiencing that controller.

I am also very interested in hearing from about what you find most helpful as well as answering questions about libraries and music production in general.

Thanks again for the great support and I look forward to seeing you soon in an upcoming livestream.

All the very best!
Simeon
PraiseTracks.com


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 3, 2020)

Simeon said:


> There is a chance that I will be getting one of the newer Studiologic SL88 Grand controllers which I hope works out as my SL-880’s main board is failing. I am really looking forward to the possibility of experiencing that controller.


Ah, thanks for clarifying that! I just assumed it was the SL88 based on how it looked. That would be one review I'd REALLY be interested in, hearing your take on an older model vs the latest SL Grand. I'll eventually move up to an 88-key controller, been researching the different models for over a year and I'm not rushing it. I'll be looking forward tothat review!


----------



## BradHoyt (Jun 3, 2020)

I've played a lot of piano libraries over the years, and this seems like a no-brainer: https://simplesamsamples.com/virtual-instruments/pianos/signature-grand.html


----------



## PaulieDC (Jun 3, 2020)

BradHoyt said:


> I've played a lot of piano libraries over the years, and this seems like a no-brainer: https://simplesamsamples.com/virtual-instruments/pianos/signature-grand.html


Thanks Brad!
Hey @Simeon , if possible, here's another to demo if you can obtain a copy. Hearing all these from the same gear and player is the best comparison. This one looks to be a Hamburg Model-D if I read it right, be great to hear against the other stack o' libraries.


----------



## doctoremmet (Jun 3, 2020)

Simeon said:


> the newer Studiologic SL88 Grand controllers


That would be the weighted one with wooden keys, that can be seen here?
(Btw, Louis Couka from Paris @UVI is in the same league of total piano coolness as @Simeon isn’t he?)


----------



## newman (Jun 3, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> ... then I heard _him _play it, and realized my problem is the wizard, not the wand, lol. . .


Me too! Simeon is a pleasure to listen to.


----------



## JohnG (Jun 3, 2020)

well, this thread has reminded me just how great VI Labs sounds.

As far as keyboards themselves -- the physical ones -- I have a Doepfer and it's fine, but they all have something you wish they didn't, or did.

The Kawai looks awesome, but no modwheel / pitchbend. The Roland looks awesome but it has one of those combo wheel / joystick things. Ugh.


----------



## Simeon (Jun 3, 2020)

PaulieDC said:


> Thanks Brad!
> Hey @Simeon , if possible, here's another to demo if you can obtain a copy. Hearing all these from the same gear and player is the best comparison. This one looks to be a Hamburg Model-D if I read it right, be great to hear against the other stack o' libraries.



Oh, this may be closer than you realize 😎
I have had it for a few days and working on doing a livestream probably in the next week or so.
It is really what others have said a must have, especially for the unreal gracious price they are offering it for, amazing.


----------



## Simeon (Jun 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> well, this thread has reminded me just how great VI Labs sounds.
> 
> As far as keyboards themselves -- the physical ones -- I have a Doepfer and it's fine, but they all have something you wish they didn't, or did.
> 
> The Kawai looks awesome, but no modwheel / pitchbend. The Roland looks awesome but it has one of those combo wheel / joystick things. Ugh.



I think one of the sweetest keyboard actions I have played is between the Kawai And a Roland V-Piano I had the pleasure of playing a few years ago. I loved the real hammer action of the Kawai and the feel of the Roland with the textured ivory feel and their action was really such a wonderful experience.

I dislike the levers and even though I am looking forward to playing with the SL88 Grand, I am a little concerned about the joystick controls approach.

Stay tuned. 🤓


----------



## Simeon (Jun 3, 2020)

BradHoyt said:


> I've played a lot of piano libraries over the years, and this seems like a no-brainer: https://simplesamsamples.com/virtual-instruments/pianos/signature-grand.html



Absolutely!


----------



## Peter Williams (Jun 3, 2020)

Simeon said:


> I think one of the sweetest keyboard actions I have played is between the Kawai And a Roland V-Piano I had the pleasure of playing a few years ago. I loved the real hammer action of the Kawai and the feel of the Roland with the textured ivory feel and their action was really such a wonderful experience.
> 
> I dislike the levers and even though I am looking forward to playing with the SL88 Grand, I am a little concerned about the joystick controls approach.
> 
> Stay tuned. 🤓


Love the Roland action and I also have no use for the paddle. It's a piano, not a beaver. I'm curious to hear how easy it is to re-route or disable the paddle so that you can control ccs with the knob and slider controls instead.


----------



## Simeon (Jun 3, 2020)

Peter Williams said:


> Love the Roland action and I also have no use for the paddle. It's a piano, not a beaver. I'm curious to hear how easy it is to re-route or disable the paddle so that you can control ccs with the knob and slider controls instead.



Sorry for going off topic a bit but an absolute must have MIDI utility for me is Bome MIDI Translator. It has allowed me to utilize all of my connected MIDI devices (nanoKONTROL, nanoPAD, D9-X Drawbar controller, IK Multimedia iRIG Keys IO 49, Arturia MicroLab) into ONE unified controller. It also has the ability to “translate” practically any MIDI data (note, CC, SysEx, you name it) into something else. For instance The SL-880 does not ha e Expression, only Volume; I take CC7 and “translate” it to CC11 (expression). I always have the ability to switch between Volume and Expression, I have even mapped the Modwheel (CC1) to the expression pedal. So many possibilities here: https://www.bome.com/

We now return you to your regular broadcast already in progress. 😎


----------



## Simeon (Jun 3, 2020)

JohnG said:


> well, this thread has reminded me just how great VI Labs sounds.



@JohnG, I have all of the VI Labs libraries and just installed their new Modern U library which is a magnificent Upright library, I am looking forward to covering it soon. They really do a wonderful job with their libraries and approach to the UVI engine which I sometimes find difficult at times.

Best,
Simeon


----------



## emilio_n (Jul 9, 2020)

About key actions, I just bought an RD-2000 with PHA-50 (Same on FP-90) and I think is great, but of course this is very subjective.



Simeon said:


> Sorry for going off topic a bit but an absolute must have MIDI utility for me is Bome MIDI Translator. It has allowed me to utilize all of my connected MIDI devices (nanoKONTROL, nanoPAD, D9-X Drawbar controller, IK Multimedia iRIG Keys IO 49, Arturia MicroLab) into ONE unified controller. It also has the ability to “translate” practically any MIDI data (note, CC, SysEx, you name it) into something else. For instance The SL-880 does not ha e Expression, only Volume; I take CC7 and “translate” it to CC11 (expression). I always have the ability to switch between Volume and Expression, I have even mapped the Modwheel (CC1) to the expression pedal. So many possibilities here: https://www.bome.com/
> 
> We now return you to your regular broadcast already in progress. 😎


I checked this to config my keyboard, but is too difficult to me! I think I need to learn more about MIDI Mapping


----------



## Simeon (Jul 9, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> About key actions, I just bought an RD-2000 with PHA-50 (Same on FP-90) and I think is great, but of course, this is very subjective.
> 
> I checked this to config my keyboard, but is too difficult to me! I think I need to learn more about MIDI Mapping



Yes, Bome MT is very deep and is sometimes hard to wrap your head around how things work but once you get something set up the rewards are great.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2021)

Guys check out www.pianobook.co.uk/ - there are so many free libraries in there and some compare well to the higher-priced ones. A lot of interesting other things in here too. Why pay $$$$ when someone is willing to mic up their piano and turn it into a free resource? Also, Ivy Audio has a pretty good instrument called Piano in 162. Free. Anyway - I agree that 8 velocity layers per key is no good. I'm a very high-level pianist and I can conceptualize that there are at least 25-30 ways to strike a key for dynamics. But you're starting out on a keyboard that has 48-key polyphony and therefore won't get as rich an overall sound as a library. A notch higher, the PX-160, or something like that, would do you much better in terms of keyboard, and I prefer the action of at least a PX-160 level piano to stuff like CDP-130 or Yamaha P-15. CDP-130 can go a long way with a good, rich, sample library. So look for things that have more samples than 8 per key


----------



## SupremeFist (Jul 30, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> Guys check out www.pianobook.co.uk/ - there are so many free libraries in there and some compare well to the higher-priced ones. A lot of interesting other things in here too. Why pay $$$$ when someone is willing to mic up their piano and turn it into a free resource? Also, Ivy Audio has a pretty good instrument called Piano in 162. Free. Anyway - I agree that 8 velocity layers per key is no good. I'm a very high-level pianist and I can conceptualize that there are at least 25-30 ways to strike a key for dynamics. But you're starting out on a keyboard that has 48-key polyphony and therefore won't get as rich an overall sound as a library. A notch higher, the PX-160, or something like that, would do you much better in terms of keyboard, and I prefer the action of at least a PX-160 level piano to stuff like CDP-130 or Yamaha P-15. CDP-130 can go a long way with a good, rich, sample library. So look for things that have more samples than 8 per key


Are there any libraries on pianobook that have more than 8 velocity layers?


----------



## johngrant (Jul 31, 2021)

The more velocity layers the better. Agreed, but with the all-important proviso that the layers must meet a certain standard. Some earlier piano vsts were loaded with layers, but either the piano itself was not great (not well-tuned, regulated, or just a bad piano), or the recording mics were bad, or the mic placement was not optimal, etc., etc., etc. My preliminary attempt at doing Bach's "48" uses, in effect, probably no more than 4 layers; yet I prefer the recorded outcome over the results I was getting from more layered vsts. That's because the mics, the piano, the approach to sampling somehow worked to make a great (well, what I think is pretty good) final audio product.

For purposes of practicing, however, it's a whole different ball game, as everyone has already pointed out. I'd probably lean towards the usual suspects for practicing: really fast vsts (minimal mem and cpu requirements). The HOLY GRAIL, where you get, ideally, hundreds of layers, yet fabulous response under the fingers.... we're not quite there yet (in my view). Now if you've got a really powerful computer, of course you'll have more options. 

I use a KAWAI "GRAND TOUCH" controller, which to me seems to have a pretty good let-off feel. But as heavy as the touch might seem, it's still lighter than the touch of most mid to full-sized grands. Very personal choice, obviously. If you're used to playing Bach on a church organ.... well, there are many inexpensive equivalents in terms of keyboard "feel." But a real piano feel is harder to find.

My two cents.... probably more than two, because I've made these points before.


----------



## Fleer (Jul 31, 2021)

Pianoteq and Organteq, even if Bach were still alive


----------

