# Harlan Ellison's Video for Getting Paid in this Industry



## midphase (Feb 16, 2009)

This is a must watch for anyone who posts in this section!


http://www.8164.org/pay-the-designer/


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## Thonex (Feb 16, 2009)

midphase @ Sun Feb 15 said:


> Please do yourself and everyone else a favor and watch this:
> 
> 
> http://www.8164.org/pay-the-designer/



midphase... you're my hero!! =o =o o-[][]-o o-[][]-o 
*
I love that clip*... and it's right on the money (pun intended)!


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## sbkp (Feb 16, 2009)

Is it ironic that it's on YouTube?


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## ENW (Feb 16, 2009)

I loved the clip.

Exactly, how does he get paid to pee????

Eric


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## midphase (Feb 16, 2009)

Oh...you'd be surprised!


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## Andreas Moisa (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm a big fan of this video, too. Right now we had quite a few situations where reacting like this would be great. But in real life where do you find the balance? I mean, very often the result will be that you'll be out of the game. Last week I had an offer for a job as a musician out of town. The costs for transport and hotel would eat up half the money they offered me. So I said, yes I do it, but what about these costs? They said, well ok this time they'd pay it but they bluntly told me that I will never get asked again. OK, F'$? YOU, right?
And again there goes one contact down the drain, while doing nothing wrong but asking for basic things. 
This thing about DVDs in the video is dead-on. I really virtually never experienced to get a copy of something I did without asking for it. Last week I bought a DVD with my music on ebay!!! WTF! (That's a longer story...)
But I still don't think you can talk to a client like that: "You get me the fu**** DVD!"

So where's the balance?


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## Hannes_F (Feb 17, 2009)

mcmace @ Tue Feb 17 said:


> Last week I had an offer for a job as a musician out of town. The costs for transport and hotel would eat up half the money they offered me. So I said, yes I do it, but what about these costs? They said, well ok this time they'd pay it but they bluntly told me that I will never get asked again.



How stupid is that?
I regularly travel to gigs and have a price list with a paragraph that says: Travel costs up to 20 km (one way) are included, every additional driven kilometer is EUR 0.40 plus VAT. I see no reason why I should sponsor a client by paying for car costs by myself. I have never, and I say never, done that since I work with a price list (with other words for 7 years now).

BTW as an artist I have so often benefitted from having a printed price list. I am not jumping back and forth from project to project and my flag is not turning with the wind. Instead of that I decided to have a list that is consistent in itself, and will consider to adjust prices once a year, not more often.

Actually I am having different lists that differ slightly in range and price depending on the target groups. But these groups are well defined. I have taken much care to work that out and have benefitted from it all the way since then.

In the case somebody thinks he/she needs a discount beyond that, he/she needs to present a good reason for that. For example a charity project, something for children or similar, or a bulk discount for bigger volumes. If so, a discount could be between 5 % and 10 % from the list price, no more.

Believe me, clients have a sense about how ready you are for compromising your price. The funny thing is that if you are perfectly ready to walk away from the deal if not being paid accordingly (and doing it from time to time) you have the least requests into that direction.

What do I do if the budget just isn't there? Easy answer, I just don't do it. If a person wants to have a Porsche and does not have the funds for it he can not buy it, no need for mercy in this case. I am not able to sponsor a client's wishful thinking.

However in certain fields I work with a building blocks system which includes a basic package that is in the same price range like market competition plus add-ons for more comfort and goodies. This way every client classifies himself in a way and also smaller deals are possible. However the price list is consistent in itself and no client is getting the same service for less money than others that have to pay for it expensively. This is a very important principle for me. 

Of course all this applies to services and capacity in fields where I am already experienced. In the case of a new idea or service there will be a short finding phase where I test the market and look for reference projects, and that could include bigger discounts. However this phase is relatively short.

The key to being an artist in business is to look upon the own work and performance as commercial goods. From that moment on the same rules and calculations apply as with all other commercial goods.


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## StrangeCat (Feb 17, 2009)

I love this guy!! 
http://harlanellison.com/text/ellicult.htm *ever read this*

He used have these 10 minute commentaries on this show about comics and science fiction. The show never did anything with Heavy Metal Magazine but it basically hit everything else and all his writings. I would watch that just to hear his commentaries, great stuff!

He says it like it is!


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## Dave Connor (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah you gotta love em.

Also one of the most talented writers of his generation. He really is considered to be "The Man" (certainly in sci fi.)


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## Stevie (Mar 9, 2009)

Hannes, 

everything you wrote is so damn true. I would sign it, if you wanted me to.
Especially this paragraph:



> What do I do if the budget just isn't there? Easy answer, I just don't do it. If a person wants to have a Porsche and does not have the funds for it he can not buy it, no need for mercy in this case. I am not able to sponsor a client's wishful thinking.



I'm preaching this for years!
Have you ever tried to get a 1000€ software for 200 bucks (let's chose Symphobia)?
You wont succeed in any way.

Cheers,

Stevie


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## Adelmo (May 13, 2009)

the same thing just happened to me a few days ago, there was no promotion for me, they has someone composing the score, same lame replay, we have lots of bands giving free tracks and so one, said no pay me or don't use it, they ended up paying!!! if we don't cut prices and stick to our guns we will survive and get more work!!


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## jondal (Dec 12, 2013)

"How DARE you!" Hehe. I absolutely love this! Thanks for sharing.


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## mirrodin (Sep 10, 2015)

HA! I would love to meet a client this brutally honest. Most try to act sly and then act taken aback when I just go straight to business directly (though I do know how to handle customer service well). This is why I have never taken an unpaid/student internship, have RARELY worked for spec (when I really, truly wanted the practice), and advocate that "passion projects" be reserved for personal hobbies that aren't attempting to enter the marketplace for profit. There's a huge difference between those two.

As my own example: I exercise 7 days a week (not every day is intense). I am regularly told "why don't you become a trainer?" when people stop me and ask for tips, and discover I seem to know a lot about nutrition, physiology, and kinesiology (not formally studied).

My answer to them is simple, "this is my hobby, and I do this for my personal enjoyment." The moment I have to turn it into a business it becomes a focal point in life that I don't want to manage in that way. I'd rather get my personal enjoyment out of it instead of having to accommodate others to make an income stream out of it.

Most people tend to find a passion, get really excited about it to the point where they FastTrack fantasies of turning it into a living without properly taking the time to develop a respect for that particular field of work or skillset. They're so amped up on the idea of it that they hastily enter into whatever work they can find without thinking the repercussions through, or discovering all the nuances and details to that line of work until they're in the thick of it. By then, they've lost enthusiasm. Now you have a "professional" borne of a jaded perspective. 

I've been composing, producing, recording, mixing, and marketing etc.. most of my life, and only just barely getting to a competitively "decent" level (not trying to be modest). I've gone through several emotional evolutions within, from hopeful, aggressive, depleted, jaded, passive, and probably more within just the last 10 years alone.

so there's to the last 20+ years of my life experiences. And here's to the next 60+ years of musical enjoyment.


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## Smikes77 (Aug 27, 2016)

How about this...?


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## kandrus1 (Feb 9, 2017)

haha . . . awesome!


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