# What's On Your Master Bus When Composing



## 98bpm (Oct 3, 2022)

I have a subscription to Computer Music Magazine and lots of their tutorial videos showcasing various plugins and instruments mention placing a limiter on the master bus. In fact, this video that I saw in a post here on VI Control shows use of a limiter on the master bus of his Pro Tools session here explaining the similarities between 2 string libraries: 
However, I've read elsewhere that you should never put a limiter on your master bus and if you do, take it off before getting your music mastered. So there's a lot of confusion here. Do any of you use a limiter on either your individual tracks or your master bus when you're in the *writing stage* of music making? If so, do you remove the limiter(s) when mixing, or add one by default or only if you feel like you need it at that point?


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## jblongz (Oct 3, 2022)

Use while writing, remove for mastering. It can help with the overall perception of sound during the composing process. Let the mixing/mastering engineers decide the final processing. Leaving (or baking) the limiter actually limits the mastering engineer’s leverage.


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## proxima (Oct 3, 2022)

I thought putting a brick wall limiter on your master was protection against unexpected loud sounds from a misbehaving plugin?


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 3, 2022)

Unless you’re mixing and mastering your own music, or have had your engineer communicate with you specifically to include it, don’t bounce with it on. Yes it can be used to help clamp down erratic noise blasts, but rather than a limiter, which will affect how you hear the music when it’s being hit, I highly recommend Cerberus Audio’s Ice9.

It’s free, defaults to +0.2db, which is more helpful for working in a floating point environment, and it fully muted the audio temporarily when the threshold is crossed. Yes this can be a tad annoying, but it clearly tells you where the audio is peaking above full scale. Unless you specifically bounce tracks as 32 bit (something some DAWs don’t even offer), you might not notice clipping before you take a limiter off to bounce. Saves 2 headaches with one plugin imo.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Oct 3, 2022)

proxima said:


> I thought putting a brick wall limiter on your master was protection against unexpected loud sounds from a misbehaving plugin?


I always use a limiter (Waves L3 LL) while working for this reason, and often add 8-12dB of gain to get my overall levels up so that if I switch to Spotify or Splice it’s more similar to where my speakers or headphones are set. For mixing/mastering I switch it to the FabFilter Pro-L 2 (and more) but avoid that when writing because of latency. My gain-staging happens at the track level and I am good about leaving plenty of headroom, so I never bother looking at the master bus for levels except to check a loudness meter at the end of the process. For pros working in calibrated rooms the answer is probably different but in my living room this works perfectly.


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## Per Boysen (Oct 3, 2022)

I prefer to work without mastering plugins, so I can hear exactly what I'm summing from the different tracks and know the exact musical performances going on. But I might temporarily pop in some compressor and limiter just to check on how frequencies balance over the audible (and non-audible) frequency spectrum. In case I have missed out on some sub bass bump on one track that will be heard well. It saves me time by minimizing the risk that I will discover later when mastering, that I must go back and redo the mix.


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## Germain B (Oct 3, 2022)

I do use a limiter on the last bus (called Stereo Out) but I export from the bus before (Master, routed to Stereo Out) which has nothing on it.
When composing but also when mixing.
It's mainly to push the volume up (around 6dB) so it is closer to my mastered volume. Trying to keep the balance between different software (Cubase, WaveLab, Premiere...).


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## Geoff Grace (Oct 4, 2022)

98bpm said:


> I have a subscription to Computer Music Magazine and lots of their tutorial videos showcasing various plugins and instruments mention placing a limiter on the master bus. In fact, this video that I saw in a post here on VI Control shows use of a limiter on the master bus of his Pro Tools session here explaining the similarities between 2 string libraries:
> However, I've read elsewhere that you should never put a limiter on your master bus and if you do, take it off before getting your music mastered. So there's a lot of confusion here. Do any of you use a limiter on either your individual tracks or your master bus when you're in the *writing stage* of music making? If so, do you remove the limiter(s) when mixing, or add one by default or only if you feel like you need it at that point?



That video appears to be by forum member @Soundbed. If he's around, perhaps he'd like to share why he used it.

It's worth noting that limiting can be used gently to prevent random spikes (as @proxima mentioned) or severely to squash dynamics in the entire track, and there's plenty of room between those extremes.

Best,

Geoff


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## proggermusic (Oct 4, 2022)

In audio, I find there to be a common streak of "I think I should be using this tool because I saw someone else using it." I like to put absolutely nothing on my master bus unless I'm mastering something (and I'm no proper mastering engineer but I can do a decent enough job for small-budget projects). 

I always compose, record, and mix so that the sum is peaking with plenty of headroom to spare, ideally -5dB or lower. If I need a brickwall limiter on my output or master bus to prevent harmful spikes, then my levels are probably way too hot earlier in the chain. I can imagine some workflows where that would be necessary but mine, at least, doesn't, and I'm happy with that. I like to address timbre, dynamics, and balance on a track-by-track basis while I write and mix, and start with conservative volume levels across the board.

I do sometimes put some coloration/glue on a mix bus when bouncing the mix if I think it helps the cohesion of the track. But I certainly won't try to boost levels to anywhere close to a broadcast-ready state, or do any other pseudo-mastering steps, until the mastering stage, whether the mastering engineer is myself or a colleague.


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## KEM (Oct 4, 2022)

The God Particle, only thing I need


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## CrystalWizard (Oct 4, 2022)

I use a limiter set to only stop crazy, weird, loud sounds (the kind that are not supposed to be there, as opposed to the kind i like) from emanating from my speakers or headphones (especially headphones, some random blast or even just a seriously too loud preset can cause me to freak out). i set my levels low enough that nothing that i do on purpose will even tickle the limiter.
After i'm done "composing' i will often add add light compression or limiting if i feel the need.


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 4, 2022)

The following is my understanding of the standard processes and I've found it confirmed in my own experience; but that experience is still quite limited - just a quick caveat!

If you have a separate listen bus, you can put the limiter on that - along with an EQ for headphone correction or the like if you are using that.

The reason you don't want a limiter on when you export/print the mix ready to go to mastering is that it could be concealing the fact that the summed volume is too loud, and you can end up exporting a heavily compressed print of your mix. That may be an effect you want; but really you want to leave headroom for the mastering process. During mastering, the volume can be increased and any overall compression or limiting can be applied.

In @KEM's case, he wants to mix to the sound shaping of The God Particle, so wants it there when mixing prior to mastering. That makes perfect sense; it's just important to know what you are doing and what the dangers can be (an untintended loss of dynamics if you don't take it properly into account).

If someone else is going to mix for you too (or remix, as with delivering stems for media), it is even more important not to have compressed heavily with a compressor ahead of that process.


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## GtrString (Oct 4, 2022)

I dont use anything while composing, I just turn up my speakers to get the ”in the room” experience. Ive never needed anything to get louder. It can make sense for overs protection, but a limiter can also introduce latency, so nah..


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## Germain B (Oct 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> If you have a separate listen bus, you can put the limiter on that - along with an EQ for headphone correction or the like if you are using that.


Ah, yes, didn't think of this. In the Control Room of Cubase, I have CanOpener only on my headphone's output, and sometimes a correction EQ.
The advantage is that I don't have to think about it before exporting (like my limiter) and it affects only my headphones.


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## PaulieDC (Oct 4, 2022)

MasterDesk is SUCH a good tool if you do your own mastering (getting to the composing part in a sec), and for finishing/home-mastering a piece that I mixed, I use this all the time. Not because I heard about it but because I got it in an RME bundle and tried it, and it's one of the few buss plugins that I fell for right away:









Brainworx bx_masterdesk True Peak


The complete analog mastering desk in your DAW, as easy as 1-2-3! Now with improved True Peak Limiter on board, and more!




www.plugin-alliance.com





So when composing, I toss this on either the Stereo Mix or Control Room in Cubase, with no adjustments. Just adding it gives a slight presence and clarity (and I mean slight!) that's literally like one pinch of salt, just enough. The reason I do that going in is because I get a small preview of the master mix, and on-the-fly I can hear how each instrument responds. Too many times I would over-fix a dull part of a final mix only to sizzle a different part. With this plugin I get a decent preview.

It's an expensive plugin but worth it. However, it's on sale for $39.99 right now and I think that makes it eligible for the daily deal discount thingy. We all have different tastes but this one is worth a look. And Plugin Alliance does it right, they give you a free trial like Waves does. Imagine that.


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## Voider (Oct 4, 2022)

> What's On Your Master Bus When Composing?


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## jcrosby (Oct 4, 2022)

My mix bus output typically has a gain plugin, a clipper, a limiter, and Metric AB.

The gain plugin is there just in case I want to nudge the gain staging up/down a hair.
The clipper is mainly used as an oscilloscope. If I do clip my mix it's very conservatively, maybe a dB-ish at the absolute loudest peak. It's also a safety if a plugin were to go rogue on me...
The limiter is to see how the mix stands up to limiting, and to get my mix close enough to a commercial level so I can AB to any references that may not be in my M-AB playlist.
Metric AB's not just for references, it also has a great suite of meters and other features, (mainly using the meters though in addition to referencing).

Limiters also tell you a useful information about your mix, for example if your limiter breaks up but your mix sounds quiet you're more or less guaranteed to have too much sub energy... Just bypass when exporting if not sending mastered previews or finished mixes yourself.


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## Voider (Oct 4, 2022)

But honestly, there should be _nothing _on the master bus when composing. A limiter is bad practice, because it hints that the composer isn't properly taking care of his _gain staging_, and everyone really should.

Gain staging makes sure that there's enough space for all the instruments to unfold in the mix, not doing gain staging and even having to pull signals down with a limiter is a sign of a messy mixing practice.

Also I would not recommend to put something like a stereo enhancer on the master bus, not even a bit, because it would only make your life harder to do the correct panning. If the panning is done properly there's no need for a stereo enhancer in the _mixing stage_, which most of the time happens parallel to the composing stage.

That being said, what can make sense is quite the opposite - one could, temporarily - add a mono plugin onto the master bus. _Mixing in mono _helps to simulate an end-user-system with either only one speaker (mobile phone, single bluetooth box) or an environment where people don't sit in the sweet spot of the mix (car), but rather close to the left or right side.

If your mix is muddy in mono and you notice that some instruments are hardly audible, then that's a good sign that they need a better spacing, either by cleaning up clashing frequencies, adjusting the volume relationships or even tackling the issue within the composition itself, by thinking about the ranges (octaves) the instruments play in. But besides checking your mix back in mono then and when or at the end, I don't think there should be any plugin on the master bus while composing.


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 4, 2022)

PaulieDC said:


> MasterDesk is SUCH a good tool if you do your own mastering (getting to the composing part in a sec), and for finishing/home-mastering a piece that I mixed, I use this all the time. Not because I heard about it but because I got it in an RME bundle and tried it, and it's one of the few buss plugins that I fell for right away:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a very good plugin for that little touch of overall cohesiveness. I've used the earlier version before the True Peak limiter was added. It's beautifully clear and just adds a nice little touch of this and that (compression, barely noticeable saturation, and tone shaping). I've been using other things more lately but I think that bx_masterdesk is great for a clear, modern orchestral sound.


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## PaulieDC (Oct 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> It's a very good plugin for that little touch of overall cohesiveness. I've used the earlier version before the True Peak limiter was added. It's beautifully clear and just adds a nice little touch of this and that (compression, barely noticeable saturation, and tone shaping). I've been using other things more lately but I think that bx_masterdesk is great for a clear, modern orchestral sound.


You described it perfectly, "that little touch of overall cohesiveness".


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 4, 2022)

Voider said:


> But honestly, there should be _nothing _on the master bus when composing. A limiter is bad practice, because it hints that the composer isn't properly taking care of his _gain staging_, and everyone really should.
> 
> Gain staging makes sure that there's enough space for all the instruments to unfold in the mix, not doing gain staging and even having to pull signals down with a limiter is a sign of a messy mixing practice (or not mixing at all).
> 
> ...


I always mix in mono first unless I've run out of time. But a limiter to protect your ears against malfunctions is very good practice. I'm sure many others here have had very nasty experiences when there was no protection in place.


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## Voider (Oct 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I always mix in mono first unless I've run out of time. But a limiter to protect your ears against malfunctions is very good practice. I'm sure many others here have had very nasty experiences when there was no protection in place.


I've never had such, but if that happens frequently to one then it might make sense.. what's causing them? 

For beginners reading this thread it might be important to point out that *if* you use a limiter on your master bus while mixing, make sure that it really just acts as a limiter and not boost your overall volume too by default, I know some DAW stock plugins do that.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 4, 2022)

Depends on the project at hand. At bare minimum, a hard clipper set to -0.1 dB.

This is to prevent anything from clipping the master bus and causing hearing damage when something weird happens or if I load in a library/synth preset that has its initial output set too high (looking at you Damage 2 and Omnisphere).

If I'm doing something hybrid, I've liked the sound of what The God Particle does to that type of track, so I will usually include it. 

I usually also have Soothe 2 and Gullfoss loaded, but disabled until the mixing stage.


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 4, 2022)

Voider said:


> I've never had such, but if that happens frequently to one then it might make sense.. what's causing them?
> 
> For beginners reading this thread it might be important to point out that *if* you use a limiter on your master bus while mixing, make sure that it really just acts as a limiter and not boost your overall volume too by default, I know some DAW stock plugins do that.


There can be software compatibility issues, moments of carelessness adjusting parameters, loading new (and very loud) sounds, hardware issues, microphone problems, feedback. All sorts.

It doesn't happen often, but just once can damage your hearing. I'm especially careful with headphones and tend to remove them to check the volume before getting started with something new.

I may be a little overcautious, of course.


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## Voider (Oct 4, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> There can be software compatibility issues, moments of carelessness adjusting parameters, loading new (and very loud) sounds, hardware issues, microphone problems, feedback. All sorts.
> 
> It doesn't happen often, but just once can damage your hearing. I'm especially careful with headphones and tend to remove them to check the volume before getting started with something new.
> 
> I may be a little overcautious, of course.


I see! I think that's actually a good idea, a limiter that does only limit doesn't do any harm to the composition unless it's not altering something in the background with hidden side features, and if it's potentially protecting the ears then I'd say _better safe than sorry_.

I've just personally never had glitches that would peak at dangerous volumes so I didn't think of that use


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## Trash Panda (Oct 4, 2022)

Voider said:


> I see! I think that's actually a good idea, a limiter that does only limit doesn't do harm to the process unless it's not altering something in the background, and if it's protecting the ears then I'd say _better safe than sorry_.
> 
> I've just personally never had glitches that would peak at dangerous volumes so I didn't think of that use


Happens quite a bit with certain plugins when you toggle them on/off or bypass, and way more than I'm happy about with Omnisphere considering how expensive it is. You'd think they'd normalize the presets as they build them.


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## Illico (Oct 4, 2022)

I use Cubase Control Room with a Brickall Limiter, then I have multiple bus chained, but during the composition, I disable all MultibandCompressor, Maximizer or Ozone stuff that add lots of latency. I simply keep some EQ, Reverb.


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## Voider (Oct 4, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> You'd think they'd normalize the presets as they build them.


Haha yes! That's the last thing I do before I finish my soundsets, going through all of the patches and make sure they share a similiar perceived loudness so that one can play through them without bad or annoying surprises.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 4, 2022)

Illico said:


> I use Cubase Control Room with a Brickall Limiter, then I have multiple bus chained, but during the composition, I disable all MultibandCompressor, *Maximizer or Ozone stuff that add lots of latency*. I simply keep some EQ, Reverb.


Ozone and Maximizer only add latency if you're not using LLC mode.

Below are latency numbers for numerous limiters from this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/weiss-mm-1-flash-sale-for-softube-tape-customers.129613

Not using lookahead (adds latency) means the limiters won't sound as transparent and musical when you clip, but that's not really the concern in this context.

Ozone 9 Maximizer in LLC mode: 7.3 ms
Ozone 9 Vintage Limiter: 16.3 ms
Sonible smartLimit: 56.7 ms
T-RackS 5 Brickwall Limiter: 1.8 ms
T-RackS 5 Stealth Limiter: 104.1 ms
T-RackS 5 Multi-Band Limiter: 1.4 ms
T-RackS 5 Quad Limiter: 0.5 ms
T-RackS 5 Precision Comp Limiter: 0.7 ms
Presonus Limiter: 1.5 ms
Vienna Limiter Pro: 1.5 ms
DMG TrackLimit (with ISP on) 1.2ms
BX_MasterDesk True Peak 6.7ms
Goodhertz Faraday (HQ on) 12.9ms
DMG Limitless (with clipper oversampling on) 49.9ms
Fabfilter Pro-L2 (with oversampling on) 65.4ms
Newfangled Elevate 114.3ms
Weiss MM-1 168.7ms


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## jcrosby (Oct 4, 2022)

Voider said:


> But honestly, there should be _nothing _on the master bus when composing. A limiter is bad practice, because it hints that the composer isn't properly taking care of his _gain staging_, and everyone really should.


That may be your preference but that doesn't make the preference to use one incorrect. This will always be debated, in reality many composers, _producers_, etc prefer to mix into a limiter or bus compressor, many prefer not to. Both are fine choices as long as they're experienced enough to understand how the mix translates, and check it occasionally with processing bypassed.


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## Voider (Oct 4, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> That may be your preference but that doesn't make mine incorrect. This will always be debated, in reality many composers prefer to mix into a limiter or bus compressor, many prefer not to.


I didn't say incorrect and it wouldn't be the right term. You as artist can do whatever you do and I will for sure not judge your personal workflow that you feel best with.

But gain staging is undeniable essential for a good, professional sounding mix. And a limiter (which boosts the volume, not in terms of really just limiting) and compressor (which alters the _true _audio image of the instruments before you've even started to mix them) will make a composers life so much harder when it comes to gain staging and proper mixing. You will compensate against elements that are being caused by the plugins on the master bus.

A lot of people get more exited about their own music if played back as loud as possible because that's how our brains work. But mixing from the first second at peak volume will not only fatigue the ears pretty quickly (_that's why it's recommended to compose and mix at lower volumes in general_) and obstruct the ability to make musical decisions, it will also make it impossible to do gain staging. And that means that you're composing into the blue without knowing if there will be enough space for all the instruments in the end, and if yes, how much for each and which.

The compressor then adds another problem, yes now the percussion at the low end has more power and energy, but so has the double bass and some artifacts from that other library, and it all together might create some mud that you need to work against with your EQ.

But before doing that final polish - that's why master compression _should_ only happen in the mastering stage - one would need to take care of the individual instruments, e.g. cleaning up the frequencies from the low end percussion vs. the double bass, balance their volumes, take care of their panning and so on.

You could still do that while the compressor is on the master bus, but then you can't 100% predict how these changes will alter the outcome of the compressor and need to readjust that one afterwards too. Which leads to a long loop of going forth and back and doing tons of extra work that wouldn't have been necessary.

It's the same principle of mixing on entertainment speakers and not on studio monitors: Yes, it's possible. But you will go back and forth many times more because you'll always try to compensate against the baked in EQ curve of your entertainment speakers to some extent.

This is why certain plugins and techniques have their dedicated places at specific stages of a production. For beginners or intermediate people reading this thread I find it important to point out the potential downsides of bringing forward techniques that usually have their place way back in the chain. The OP also did ask for advice, that's mine


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## Great Zed (Oct 4, 2022)

I just use a bit of EQ sometimes. Mids become cluttered fast, so with a wide Q I subtract 1 dB around 500 and then add 1 dB in the highs. Very minimal, but adds clarity so I can hear what's going on a bit easier.


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## jcrosby (Oct 4, 2022)

Voider said:


> I didn't say incorrect and it wouldn't be the right term. You as artist can do whatever you do and I will for sure not judge your personal workflow that you feel best with.
> 
> But gain staging is undeniable essential for a good, professional sounding mix. And a limiter (which boosts the volume, not in terms of really just limiting) and compressor (which alters the _true _audio image of the instruments before you've even started to mix them) will make a composers life so much harder when it comes to gain staging and proper mixing. You will compensate against elements that are being caused by the plugins on the master bus.
> 
> ...


Mixing into a compressor doesn't necessarily mean you bounce through a compressor (the same applies to a limiter on the output). I don't bounce through my limiter because the libraries I write for typically have things mastered out of house, and are rigorous about bypassing all mix bus processing. As I said It's all about understanding how things translate, and checking with it bypassed from time to time.

In the days of large format consoles mixing into a bus compressor was common_. _Consoles often had a stereo bus compressor, and it was normal to mix into it... The Neve 2254, 33609C, SSL G series, etc are popular plugins because of their heritage as console compressors. Mix engineers who do mix into a bus compressor will tell you it's something they do early on, some even set it up at the beginning because it has such a dramatic effect on the decisions they make.

There have been as many (if not more) records made that were mixed into a bus compressor vs mixed without one. It's completely normal, suggesting it isn't is, I'm sorry to say, is ignoring a large percentage of audio history.


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## CrystalWizard (Oct 4, 2022)

I should have added that once all is done i often remove the limiter, or if i'm just "mastering" myself maybe not, i may then add more gizmoes like MasterComp or Vintage Warmer 2 from PSP. Gain staging is indeed important (although not like the olden days) and i personally don't mix into a limiter with gain or a compressor (although as stated many people do and that's great if they get results).


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## CrystalWizard (Oct 4, 2022)

Voider said:


> Haha yes! That's the last thing I do before I finish my soundsets, going through all of the patches and make sure they share a similiar perceived loudness so that one can play through them without bad or annoying surprises.


If everyone did that there would be less (but still) a need for a limiter. I've had many unpleasant surprises and now i do the same as Bee Abney and don't even put the headphones on at first, but i still use the limiter set to -.3 with no gain or other monkey business. As said, it only takes one glitch out or absurdly loud preset to damage your hearing and ruin your day. i also make certain that all my presets are uniform volume and unfortunately have to do the same with factory presets if i choose to use any. i did a live gig the other day and definitely left the limiter on, one false move through a large sound system can ruin everyones day!


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## Voider (Oct 4, 2022)

jcrosby said:


> Mixing into a compressor doesn't necessarily mean you bounce through a compressor (the same applies to a limiter on the output).


But that is exactly what's causing the problem that I've described in my previous post.



jcrosby said:


> In the days of large format consoles mixing into a bus compressor was common_. _Consoles often had a stereo bus compressor, and it was normal to mix into it... The Neve 2254, 33609C, SSL G series, etc are popular plugins because of their heritage as console compressors. Mix engineers who do mix into a bus compressor will tell you it's something they do early on, some even set it up at the beginning because it has such a dramatic effect on the decisions they make.
> 
> There have been as many (if not more) records made that were mixed into a bus compressor vs mixed without one. It's completely normal, suggesting it isn't is, I'm sorry to say, is ignoring a large percentage of audio history.


That's very anecdotic and something one can hardly argue against. Could really be everything: Bus compressors that just were used as limiters, or completely different fields like recording perfectly staged rock bands in well treated studios live, which is an entirely different thing than working with isolated orchestral samples or synthethic instruments in a DAW.

I went pretty much into detail about my points, so you're wholeheartedly invited to refer to them.
Otherwise I'm fine too. I will still sleep peacefully, knowing there are people out there who believe in different philosophy


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## Pier (Oct 4, 2022)

ProQ 3 for the last bit of polish and Elevate.

Sometimes I add a super subtle reverb before Elevate. Maybe at 5-10% of wet. I find it adds a tiny bit of glue and depth to the whole thing.



jcrosby said:


> Mix engineers who do mix into a bus compressor will tell you it's something they do early on, some even set it up at the beginning because it has such a dramatic effect on the decisions they make.


Yeah absolutely. Mixing with L2 or Elevate on the master bus gets a better idea on what's going to happen later on. Of course you would not bounce with that unless you're doing the mastering too.

There's this guy on Youtube called Baphometrix that talks about a method for mixing/mastering loud EDM music called "clip to zero". It emphasizes using clippers/limiters right from the start to achieve what he calls "competitive loudness". Of course this doesn't translate to orchestral/film mixing but I found his videos super interesting as he's super scientific and always shows examples.


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## Wunderhorn (Oct 4, 2022)

I like having ice9 in my master as it protects my ears from unexpected blasts. Other than that I don't see much wrong in adding a limiter while composing to lift the perceived levels a bit so that the Youtube video of that new string library you are checking out while procrastinating won't leave paw prints on your ears either.


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## FireGS (Oct 4, 2022)

Voider said:


> But honestly, there should be _nothing _on the master bus when composing. *A limiter is bad practice*,


Disagree.


Voider said:


> it hints that the composer isn't properly taking care of his _gain staging_,


Not necessarily.



Voider said:


> and everyone really should.


Agree.


Voider said:


> Gain staging makes sure that there's enough space for all the instruments to unfold in the mix,


Disagree. You can gain stage all tracks perfectly and still go above 0db. Gain staging is the process of making sure the audio is set to an optimal level for the next processor in the chain in order to minimize noise and distortion - it has nothing to do with how much space there is - _or isn't._

It just depends on how many tracks you have, and if they all peak at the same-ish time. Mixdowns are additive. That's why a limiter is important always and not bad practice.



Voider said:


> even having to pull signals down with a limiter is a sign of a messy mixing practice.


Agree -- no one should be using a limiter as a master/bus compressor. But they're literally made for catching quick transient peaks.


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## Arbee (Oct 4, 2022)

I have a multiband compressor and Izotope's Tonal Balance on the master bus while composing and mixing, but I only use them every now and again to get a progressive feel for how the track is going to glue together and polish up once mastered.


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## JTB (Oct 4, 2022)




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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 4, 2022)

I don't use a limiter until the last stage, only because I'm not really concerned with the overall level before then (within reason).

But I do sometimes use a bus compressor while working, and I don't see why so many people say it's a bad thing to do. I mean, the argument over whether to use a bus compressor on a mix in the first place has been going for decades. But if you're going to use it later, I don't see how it is going to hurt anyone to have a smoother, denser sound while you're working.


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## Justin L. Franks (Oct 4, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Unless you’re mixing and mastering your own music, or have had your engineer communicate with you specifically to include it, don’t bounce with it on. Yes it can be used to help clamp down erratic noise blasts, but rather than a limiter, which will affect how you hear the music when it’s being hit, I highly recommend Cerberus Audio’s Ice9.
> 
> It’s free, defaults to +0.2db, which is more helpful for working in a floating point environment, and it fully muted the audio temporarily when the threshold is crossed. Yes this can be a tad annoying, but it clearly tells you where the audio is peaking above full scale. Unless you specifically bounce tracks as 32 bit (something some DAWs don’t even offer), you might not notice clipping before you take a limiter off to bounce. Saves 2 headaches with one plugin imo.


Not available anymore. Cerberus's website is gone, the domain is listed as for sale.

Any alternatives?


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 4, 2022)

Justin L. Franks said:


> Not available anymore. Cerberus's website is gone, the domain is listed as for sale.
> 
> Any alternatives?


Oh damn, had no idea! I did a quick search and this was a link offered up on GearSpace that people reported as safe and reputable:



Cerberus Audio – Ice9 Automute – VST PLUGINS



I can also provide the .au if you’re a logic user. I’m not sure if I installed the .vst version, but in any case I can’t imagine there would be an issue sharing a free plugin from a defunct company.


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## arcy (Oct 5, 2022)

My 2 cents: if you produce the entire song from the composition to the final product someone from the big player suggests working with the 2bus plugin active to have a better representation of the final sound. Otherwise, if the mix will be done by a mix engineer, leave blank the 2bus so you don't get used to your ears hearing a sound that should be modified.


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## Voider (Oct 5, 2022)

FireGS said:


> Disagree. You can gain stage all tracks perfectly and still go above 0db. Gain staging is the process of making sure the audio is set to an optimal level for the next processor in the chain in order to minimize noise and distortion - it has nothing to do with how much space there is - _or isn't._



I see, you've copied & pasted Izotopes definition of gain staging from their article, but if you would've actually read that article too (https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/gain-staging-what-it-is-and-how-to-do-it.html) you wouldn't make the claim that it has nothing to do with how much space there is.

You would've stumbled across this:



> We’ve demonstrated that in the domain of floating-point, you can push above 0 dBFS and not harm the signal, so long as you dip back down on the track’s corresponding destination. This is all before you export it as a fixed-point file (a CD-quality WAV file, for instance), or before you send it through a D/A converter—do keep that in mind, or else you’ll incur distortion.



This means, you'll *have to do *proper gain staging no matter if you temporarily make use of the benefits of floating-point processing and smash your volume bars into infinity without causing instant distortion.

When you export in the end, you definitely have an _audio budget. _There can't be infinite instruments peaking at 0dB without your outcome becoming distorted and muddy. So yes, it is about space - and how much it is about space! It is about using the avaiable space (volume) to distribute your instruments in the best possible balance.

Gain staging ensures that all of your instruments have room to breathe and that all of them together, the final signal on the master channel, don't cause any kind of distortion and clipping after exporting. And you can't do proper gain staging if you start to work right away from the very beginning with a limiter on the master bus that pushes all instruments to their limits.

You could argue with "_I'll catch up on that in the end_", but that makes life again only more difficult than it must be, because many decisions like the range of instrumental distribution, the usage of particular instruments at all, EQing and also adding plugins to single instruments depend largely on the avaiable space for each instrument in context to the composition. One could put hours into fine-tuning all these elements only to figure that it doesn't work out as soon as the limiter is being dropped.

And it's not only that. The volume distribution together with some other elements also determine a big part of the _perceived loudness_, which leads me to..



Pier said:


> There's this guy on Youtube called Baphometrix that talks about a method for mixing/mastering loud EDM music called "clip to zero". It emphasizes using clippers/limiters right from the start to achieve what he calls "competitive loudness".


this part.

Gain staging isn't only about taking care of the volume meters not clipping. It's also about the _perceived loudness_ of the final track. The decisions we make matter; they affect not only the complete dynamic range, they also affect the dynamic range between fewer instruments, which plays an important rule too when it comes to the mastering session and maximizing LUFS.

And again, we can't make these decisions if all our instruments get boosted into sky all the time. There's really no need for that. One can just mix at lower levels and bump up the speakers occasionally when really needed, that's a way cleaner way to mix and it saves a lot of uneccessary extra work.

Regarding the EDM example: To me this looks like a trial & error approach. If I don't know how to distribute my instruments and do my mix to get a decent level of LUFS out at the mastering stage, then a limiter right from the start can "help", because I start to tweak everything right from the beginning in a fashion that leads _anyhow_ to a decent loudness.

It's just easier not to miss this way, but since music is about a lot more things than _perceived loudness (see "loudness wars" for everyone interested), _I don't think the bang for your buck ratio looks good on this. There's imo just too many downsides that come along with not being in full control over the gain staging.

I've never been a fan of these "_use THIS simple trick to make your music more exiting_" kind of tips, especially if they get into the way of other important elements.

I think it drags the attention away from truly understanding and learning about the things we do while we compose music.


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## FireGS (Oct 5, 2022)

Voider said:


> I see, you've copied & pasted Izotopes definition of gain staging from their article, but if you would've actually read that article too (https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/gain-staging-what-it-is-and-how-to-do-it.html) you wouldn't make the claim that it has nothing to do with how much space there is.
> 
> You would've stumbled across this:
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you're arguing against in this post...


> This means, you'll *have to do *proper gain staging no matter if you temporarily make use of the benefits of floating-point processing and smash your volume bars into infinity without causing instant distortion.










> When you export in the end, you definitely have an _audio budget._


Which is why you use a limiter at the end  You're making a lot of points in opposition to _nothing_ I've said. Sounds like you need to read up about compressors and their use/usecase.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> But I do sometimes use a bus compressor while working, and I don't see why so many people say it's a bad thing to do. I mean, the argument over whether to use a bus compressor on a mix in the first place has been going for decades. But if you're going to use it later, I don't see how it is going to hurt anyone to have a smoother, denser sound while you're working.


This.


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## Voider (Oct 5, 2022)

FireGS said:


> Which is why you use a limiter at the end  You're making a lot of points in opposition to _nothing_ I've said. Sounds like you need to read up about compressors and their use/usecase.


Can't tell if you're serious with this or not.

Throwing in 20 instruments at maximum volume and smashing a limiter on top doesn't lead to anywhere near results as carefully doing proper gain staging for these 20 instruments and let them naturally form the final signal together.

The first approach will still lead to a heavily squashed result with the instruments gasping for air.


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## FireGS (Oct 5, 2022)

Voider said:


> Throwing in 20 instruments at maximum volume and smashing a limiter on top doesn't lead to anywhere near results as carefully doing proper gain staging for these 20 instruments and let them naturally form the final signal together.


I never said this    I said there can be times that if you have a lot of tracks all *properly gain staged*_,_ it's still possible to go over 0db. I never said maximum volumes OR smashing a limiter.


FireGS said:


> You can gain stage all tracks perfectly and still go above 0db.





FireGS said:


> It just depends on how many tracks you have, and if they all peak at the same-ish time. Mixdowns are additive.


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## Voider (Oct 5, 2022)

FireGS said:


> I never said this    I said there can be times that if you have a lot of tracks all *properly gain staged*_,_ it's still possible to go over 0db. I never said maximum volumes OR smashing a limiter.


Then I don't know why you've quoted and referred to my post where I talk about the practice of *starting *a composition with a volume boosting limiter on the master bus right from the beginning, and how that hints at the composer not doing proper gain staging. Because the OP was specifically asking about the usage of limiters at the writing stage, which comes before gain staging for obvious reasons:



98bpm said:


> Do any of you use a limiter on either your individual tracks or your master bus when you're in the *writing stage* of music making?



Seems this was a misunderstanding.


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## FireGS (Oct 5, 2022)

Voider said:


> Then I don't know why you've quoted and referred to my post where I talk about the practice of *starting *a composition with a volume boosting limiter on the master bus right from the beginning, and how that hints at the composer not doing proper gain staging.
> 
> Seems this was a misunderstanding.


Because a limiter doesn't (on its own) add gain. A limiter is just a compressor -- a very quick compressor. You have to add in gain. That's probably bad practice, but it's ignoring the main point of a limiter -- to catch and reduce transient peaks. 

It's become a thing to smash gain into the limiter because people like that sound (i guess?), but it shouldn't invalidate the tool altogether. When used for its originally intended purpose, a limiter is perfectly reasonable to use at any point.


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## Voider (Oct 5, 2022)

Yeah we already covered that on page 2 of this thread:



Voider said:


> For beginners reading this thread it might be important to point out that *if* you use a limiter on your master bus while mixing, make sure that it really just acts as a limiter and not boost your overall volume too by default, I know some DAW stock plugins do that.


My subsequent posts were about the _bad practice_ usage with the overall volume boost going on in order to make the writing stage more pleasant. Anyways, now we know


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 5, 2022)

I actually have nothing on my master bus, and the only time I use a limiter is when I master exported mixes. In that case, I use FabFilter L2 or Ozone Maximizer.


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## MLaudio (Oct 5, 2022)

Nothing wrong with top down mixing. I've been doing that for years as it often speeds up the process. I generally have a broad stroke EQ on the mix bus (something like slick eq). Sometimes a bus compressor with a light ratio.


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 5, 2022)

I do think many have missed the point that this isn’t regarding mixing or mastering, but writing. I wouldn’t _write_ with a limiter on, personally, because it doesn’t add anything to me for that part of the process. Indeed, I find it to lead to questionable decisions regarding balance and tonality. Again, before mixing.


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## Jrides (Oct 5, 2022)

Nothing


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 5, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> I do think many have missed the point that this isn’t regarding mixing or mastering, but writing. I wouldn’t _write_ with a limiter on, personally, because it doesn’t add anything to me for that part of the process. Indeed, I find it to lead to questionable decisions regarding balance and tonality. Again, before mixing.



Are you talking about a limiter or a compressor? Same tool, different applications.

Limiting (setting the compressor to a 10:1 ratio or higher) is what the name implies: limiting the signal from going over. Unless you deliberately hit it hard for a distortion effect, it's not supposed to be heard.

So no, an intentionally transparent process isn't going to add anything while composing. I and think most people use limiting when setting the final level.

Bus compression is quite different, because it is heard.


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## Voider (Oct 5, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So no, an intentionally transparent process isn't going to add anything while composing. I and think most people use limiting when setting the final level.


I just don't think that's what the OP meant, why would he ask if there's a problem with applying something that has zero negative side effects? Common sense would answer his question. The way he asked however, with the note "_already using it while at the writing stage_", implies he thought of doing more with it than just limiting, which is getting the volume up.

We all need to somehow agree upon that there are different ways of using a limiter otherwise we will all still talk past each other on page 10 

In FL Studio and with plugins more geared towards electronic music, the limiter often comes with a volume boost by default. It's the first tool of choice to get everything boosted up without the need to fiddle around with compression settings, not only to limit the peak volume.


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## Living Fossil (Oct 5, 2022)

98bpm said:


> Do any of you use a limiter on either your individual tracks or your master bus when you're in the *writing stage* of music making? If so, do you remove the limiter(s) when mixing, or add one by default or only if you feel like you need it at that point?


The question if one should or should not put a limiter on the master while working is pretty pointless.
Some prefer to do so, some prefer not to do.
However, as long as you're only hitting a limiter mildy, it's pretty much the same as turning the volume of your monitors a bit higher. At the point where it's really changing the sound in a significant way, you're probably overdoing it (which may even be on purpose if done by a competent person who knows why he does it).

This said, first of all, I'm not a limiter on the master person.
With orchestral tracks, in the process of composing i usually have quite some headroom and for that reason i usually turn my monitors a bit louder at that stage.

Then there are two other scenarios:

- One is where there is the danger to run the session too hot. In this case I put a gain plugin as first insert of the sum (i usually have a sum bus that then goes to the master bus).

- The other thing is something i do sometimes with electronic or in some other way non orchestral music occasionally: It consists in putting the IK Multimedia Lursson Mastering Console on the Master bus at a pretty early stadium and then mixing into it. So, the processing i apply to the signals already reacts to the LMC. This way, it's not the plug in that changes the sound at a later stadium, but a color that is added at an early stage. Usually I do adjust some parameters of the Lursson during the process of course, but it sets the mood.


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 5, 2022)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Are you talking about a limiter or a compressor? Same tool, different applications.
> 
> Limiting (setting the compressor to a 10:1 ratio or higher) is what the name implies: limiting the signal from going over. Unless you deliberately hit it hard for a distortion effect, it's not supposed to be heard.
> 
> ...


Right, as an effect, of course, all bets are off. Creative use is inarguably a reason to use it. I’m thinking more along the lines of:


98bpm said:


> However, I've read elsewhere that you should never put a limiter on your master bus and if you do, take it off before getting your music mastered.


I would imagine most mastering engineers prefer a non-pre-mastered mix to work with, and for catching noise blasts I still prefer the function and simplicity of Ice9. There, of course, personal preference reigns, but I do believe there to be a good argument for using a dedicated plugin _like_ Ice9, when used for this purpose, over a limiter since hitting a limiter too hard - by accident or naïveté - can alter the tonality and balance of the track.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 5, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> I would imagine most mastering engineers prefer a non-pre-mastered mix to work with, and for catching noise blasts I still prefer the function and simplicity of Ice9. There, of course, personal preference reigns, but I do believe there to be a good argument for using a dedicated plugin _like_ Ice9, when used for this purpose, over a limiter since hitting a limiter too hard - by accident or naïveté - can alter the tonality and balance of the track.


I can't help but laugh whenever someone says to "leave headroom for mastering."

If your mix is running without headroom and you haven't already compressed and limited your mix into a sausage, they can simply _turn the volume down_ to get some head room if that is all that's needed.

If you have already slammed your mix into a sausage, all they have to do is send an email asking for the mix without the limiter applied.


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## patrick76 (Oct 5, 2022)

98bpm said:


> I have a subscription to Computer Music Magazine and lots of their tutorial videos showcasing various plugins and instruments mention placing a limiter on the master bus. In fact, this video that I saw in a post here on VI Control shows use of a limiter on the master bus of his Pro Tools session here explaining the similarities between 2 string libraries:
> However, I've read elsewhere that you should never put a limiter on your master bus and if you do, take it off before getting your music mastered. So there's a lot of confusion here. Do any of you use a limiter on either your individual tracks or your master bus when you're in the *writing stage* of music making? If so, do you remove the limiter(s) when mixing, or add one by default or only if you feel like you need it at that point?



Do you feel that you have the information you need to make an educated decision now? It seems at this point the thread may become repetitive.

Personally, I like minimalism so I sometimes like repetitive. That being said, what do you guys think about analog vs digital?


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## Technostica (Oct 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Ozone and Maximizer only add latency if you're not using LLC mode.
> 
> Below are latency numbers for numerous limiters from this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/weiss-mm-1-flash-sale-for-softube-tape-customers.129613
> 
> ...


Thanks for this.
I was aware that I should use a limiter as I use headphones a lot and don't want to risk getting blasted.
So I just added T-RackS 5 Brickwall Limiter to my template; I picked it up in a group buy.


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I can't help but laugh whenever someone says to "leave headroom for mastering."
> 
> If your mix is running without headroom and you haven't already compressed and limited your mix into a sausage, they can simply _turn the volume down_ to get some head room if that is all that's needed.
> 
> If you have already slammed your mix into a sausage, all they have to do is send an email asking for the mix without the limiter applied.


Yeah, not literally headroom in terms of volume, obviously! But for some reason - presumably going back to tape - not having already turned the audio into a sausage is what I think people mean nowadays by leaving headroom.

I'm probably completely wrong! It just seemed more likely to me that headroom was being used in this attenuated way rather than that lots of experienced people couldn't find the volume control.


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## Voider (Oct 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> If your mix is running without headroom and you haven't already compressed and limited your mix into a sausage, they can simply _turn the volume down_ to get some head room if that is all that's needed.


Only if one delivers in 32 or 64 bit floating point WAV though, otherwise a file can still suffer from clipping by unwanted effects like inter-sample peaks. Should be good to mention at this point


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I can't help but laugh whenever someone says to "leave headroom for mastering."
> 
> If your mix is running without headroom and you haven't already compressed and limited your mix into a sausage, they can simply _turn the volume down_ to get some head room if that is all that's needed.
> 
> If you have already slammed your mix into a sausage, all they have to do is send an email asking for the mix without the limiter applied.


For sure! As @Voider pointed out, though, working in 32 bit and exporting in 24 bit - something that Logic, at least, does by default - can cause issues if you’re not careful.

I wouldn’t market myself as a professional mastering engineer, but I’ve mastered friends music, and I get a lot of sausages. Sure I can send an email, but I don’t want to have to over and over again. The client should learn at some point how to deliver proper materials, and that educating via email isn’t much different than asking on this forum right now, which is what this thread is.

Edit: again, though, this isn’t about the mixing stage. This is about the _writing_ stage. So kind of a moot point here.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 5, 2022)

Voider said:


> I just don't think that's what the OP meant, why would he ask if there's a problem with applying something that has zero negative side effects? Common sense would answer his question. The way he asked however, with the note "_already using it while at the writing stage_", implies he thought of doing more with it than just limiting, which is getting the volume up.
> 
> We all need to somehow agree upon that there are different ways of using a limiter otherwise we will all still talk past each other on page 10
> 
> In FL Studio and with plugins more geared towards electronic music, the limiter often comes with a volume boost by default. It's the first tool of choice to get everything boosted up without the need to fiddle around with compression settings, not only to limit the peak volume.


Well, the terms "compressor" and "limiter" have been well established for many decades, and I explained them in my last post because of the confusion in this thread.

FL Studio and the style of music have nothing to do with that, and no, it's not an automatic assumption that you're using either one - especially a compressor - to make everything louder. Nor is it clear from the original post that we're discussing what to do if you're sending music off to a mastering engineer.

These days the line between composer/performer/recording engineer/mixer/mastering engineer usually doesn't exist anyway, i.e. they're all the same person.

If the question is what processing to apply if you're sending music off to be mastered, then usually it's up to the mixing engineer to use bus compression (since that's part of the sound of the mix), and certainly not to use a limiter on the whole mix (because dealing with levels is the mastering engineer's job).


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 5, 2022)

However, mastering engineers also use compressors.

Also, what I meant about limiting not just being to make everything louder: let's say you have a target level of -16 LUFS. Your entire mix is way above that.

So in addition to bringing down the master fader (or the limiter's input level) you use a limiter set to clamp down peaks above your threshold - even though it's starting off louder. Limiters are for controlling the level, not just for making it louder.

It's a little more complicated with LUFS, but still...


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## Pier (Oct 5, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> I can't help but laugh whenever someone says to "leave headroom for mastering."
> 
> If your mix is running without headroom and you haven't already compressed and limited your mix into a sausage, they can simply _turn the volume down_ to get some head room if that is all that's needed.
> 
> If you have already slammed your mix into a sausage, all they have to do is send an email asking for the mix without the limiter applied.


Exactly. It's not the headroom, it's the dynamic range.


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 5, 2022)

I have the feeling most of us are probably in agreement, just looking at things from slightly different angles. I don’t think I’ve read much I disagree with from my own experience!


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## Henu (Oct 5, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> I wouldn’t market myself as a professional mastering engineer, but I’ve mastered friends music, and I get a lot of sausages.


"You know nothing, Duncan Krummel".


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## Duncan Krummel (Oct 6, 2022)

Henu said:


> "You know nothing, Duncan Krummel".


I think if I saw that I'd choose violence.


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## cedricm (Oct 6, 2022)

98bpm said:


> I have a subscription to Computer Music Magazine and lots of their tutorial videos showcasing various plugins and instruments mention placing a limiter on the master bus. In fact, this video that I saw in a post here on VI Control shows use of a limiter on the master bus of his Pro Tools session here explaining the similarities between 2 string libraries:
> However, I've read elsewhere that you should never put a limiter on your master bus and if you do, take it off before getting your music mastered. So there's a lot of confusion here. Do any of you use a limiter on either your individual tracks or your master bus when you're in the *writing stage* of music making? If so, do you remove the limiter(s) when mixing, or add one by default or only if you feel like you need it at that point?



When composing I make sure I'm in 192 kHz 32 bits.

Then I add kilohearts Bitcrush to my master bus with the following parameters :
Quantize: max
Dither : lowest 
Rate : 200 Hz
Bits: lowest
ADC Q knob : lowest
DAC Q knob: lowest
Mix: max

Try it! 
Works best with $$$$$$ monitors for ultimate clarity.


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## Henu (Oct 6, 2022)

@Duncan Krummel I actually had to make a vinyl master out of that! Long story short, a record label sent me that (and a bunch of other files for a compilation album) and naturally I asked for an unlimited version instead. 

After doing a complete remaster for the whole album, it was rejected by the band and they insisted to make a vinyl our of the _original files_. No warnings were enough for them so I ended up pleasing the client balancing the stuff together from the original files. "Just don't put my name on it". :D

In the end, the CD version looked like this and I still have nightmares about it. The vinyl master is even couple of dB's lower on volume than this, and it's still about -9 LUFS, haha!


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 6, 2022)

Henu said:


> @Duncan Krummel I actually had to make a vinyl master out of that! Long story short, a record label sent me that (and a bunch of other files for a compilation album) and naturally I asked for an unlimited version instead.
> 
> After doing a complete remaster for the whole album, it was rejected by the band and they insisted to make a vinyl our of the _original files_. No warnings were enough for them so I ended up pleasing the client balancing the stuff together from the original files. "Just don't put my name on it". :D
> 
> In the end, the CD version looked like this and I still have nightmares about it. The vinyl master is even couple of dB's lower on volume than this, and it's still about -9 LUFS, haha!


Wait, is it you who masters for @KEM?


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## KEM (Oct 6, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Wait, is it you who masters for @KEM?



-9? That’s not enough for me, -5 all day!!


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## Trash Panda (Oct 6, 2022)

Henu said:


> @Duncan Krummel I actually had to make a vinyl master out of that! Long story short, a record label sent me that (and a bunch of other files for a compilation album) and naturally I asked for an unlimited version instead.
> 
> After doing a complete remaster for the whole album, it was rejected by the band and they insisted to make a vinyl our of the _original files_. No warnings were enough for them so I ended up pleasing the client balancing the stuff together from the original files. "Just don't put my name on it". :D
> 
> In the end, the CD version looked like this and I still have nightmares about it. The vinyl master is even couple of dB's lower on volume than this, and it's still about -9 LUFS, haha!


That looks like it sounds unpleasant. Black metal, I presume?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 6, 2022)

Duncan Krummel said:


> I have the feeling most of us are probably in agreement, just looking at things from slightly different angles. I don’t think I’ve read much I disagree with from my own experience!


Well, I disagree with all the posts saying one categorically shouldn't use a bus compressor while you're composing.

So there.


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## Henu (Oct 6, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> That looks like it sounds unpleasant. Black metal, I presume?


And the worst kind- raw _and_ German!


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## Bee_Abney (Oct 7, 2022)

Henu said:


> And the worst kind- raw _and_ German!


It's spelled 'Wurst'.


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## holywilly (Oct 8, 2022)

I have Ice9 on my master bus while composing, to protect my beloved speaker from sudden burst.


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## TonalDynamics (Oct 26, 2022)

Voider said:


> A limiter is bad practice, because it hints that the composer isn't properly taking care of his _gain staging_


To be fair, orchestral VST are so dynamic that you really can't do any gain-staging during the writing phase apart from the making sure the default instrument and section levels are consistent across all dynamic ranges (your template should have these correct from the start, though).

You _could _use buss compression on various sections and instruments, but this is also a bad idea because it conceals dynamics.

What you should be doing is controlling the _dynamics_ of the performance properly (this may very well be what you meant) while writing and tracking performances.

Just get your performance dynamics right and turn your headphones/boxes way the hell up so that you can keep levels down in the digital domain, and have plenty of headroom to smash things in the mixing/mastering phase 

This mostly applies to working with orchestra sample libraries, of course.

Cheers


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2022)

Nothing when I'm composing.


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## KEM (Oct 26, 2022)

I’d recommend having a fully processed mixbus while writing because it will give you a more accurate representation of what your music will sound like in its final state, there’s nothing worse than getting a mix back and it’s not even close to what you intended, and that’s because you weren’t hearing it in a more polished state in the first place. My template has very similar mixbus processing to my engineer, and this lets him to hear what I wrote almost exactly the way I heard it and allows him to make more accurate decisions without changing much of what I heard while writing

All of the big composers in Hollywood, from what I’ve heard, also do this for similar reasons. You can do whatever you want but it just makes a lot more sense to me personally to have a fully processed mixbus from the start, it’s more inspiring and it streamlines the process and makes things much easier to finish


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2022)

From my experience, Inserting Mastering quality plugins on the Master Bus when composing does two things :

1- Adds additional CPU, 2- Adds Latency. 

I can live without these two negative features until I'm done mixing my song. I can then add mastering plugins. 

If you don't have these issues, then go ahead. use them.


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## KEM (Oct 26, 2022)

Fair enough, I’m on a Mac Studio so those aren’t issues for me but I would at least recommend using a low cpu intensive compressor or limiter, just so you can hear your music in a better form right from the start


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## telecode101 (Oct 26, 2022)

I permanently have a limiter on master bus. I got bitten once badly with a sudden spike. A plugin went haywire and almost blew my eardrums out.


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2022)

KEM said:


> Fair enough, I’m on a Mac Studio so those aren’t issues for me but I would at least recommend using a low cpu intensive compressor or limiter, just so you can hear your music in a better form right from the start


Thanks. I might try using the Native Studio One Limiter. Most of the ones I use for mastering introduce a lot of latency.


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## Trash Panda (Oct 26, 2022)

muziksculp said:


> Thanks. I might try using the Native Studio One Limiter. Most of the ones I use for mastering introduce a lot of latency.


Check this list: https://vi-control.net/community/th...bus-when-composing.130593/page-2#post-5193370

Really though, a hard clipper is sufficient.


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Check this list: https://vi-control.net/community/th...bus-when-composing.130593/page-2#post-5193370
> 
> Really though, a hard clipper is sufficient.


OH.. that's right, I have a hard clipper, I always forget about these things 

Thanks


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## muziksculp (Oct 26, 2022)

S1Pro 6 Limiter works great, no latency, and low CPU.


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## liquidlino (Oct 26, 2022)

KEM said:


> I’d recommend having a fully processed mixbus while writing because it will give you a more accurate representation of what your music will sound like in its final state, there’s nothing worse than getting a mix back and it’s not even close to what you intended, and that’s because you weren’t hearing it in a more polished state in the first place. My template has very similar mixbus processing to my engineer, and this lets him to hear what I wrote almost exactly the way I heard it and allows him to make more accurate decisions without changing much of what I heard while writing
> 
> All of the big composers in Hollywood, from what I’ve heard, also do this for similar reasons. You can do whatever you want but it just makes a lot more sense to me personally to have a fully processed mixbus from the start, it’s more inspiring and it streamlines the process and makes things much easier to finish


I somewhat understand why you do it. However, beyond simple limiting to raise volume up and avoid over peaks, I find that if I put processing on the mix bus, it ends up being really loud (as in LUFS) and it is really fatiguing. Plus, it often masks arrangement issues, making everything sound great, when in fact, if it was played in real life with the same arrangement and dynamics, it would sound weak and lifeless.

Doing mockups of professional works, I'm always amazed how the orchestration and arragement and performed dynamics really delivers 90% of the power of an orchestral piece. Mixing and limiting etc not really needed except for that final spit and polish.


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