# Hybrid Beethoven



## fretti (Apr 20, 2018)

Not sure this is the right place to post this, so please tell me if it isn't so I can delete/change it to the correct one (or if there already is a thread about this discussion, haven't found one so far though).

Just stumbled upon this video:


Even though I kind of think the idea is interesting, I still prefer the "original" Beethoven.
But I am curious how other people here see this topic. Do you think doing so much hybrid stuff nowadays it gets out of hand? Or do you think it's just the "beginning" of a new musical era?

Especially interested in what you think about "doing" this to classical music or older scores (Star Wars etc....) is it refreshing or just becoming more and more boring for you?


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## Tfis (Apr 20, 2018)

There's absolutely no expression, no musicality.


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## mac (Apr 20, 2018)

Cheesy as hell and full of cliches, but it's well done. Your average man on the street would probably love it.


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## muk (Apr 20, 2018)

The production quality is astonishing. And that's about all the good things I can say about this video. There is not even the faintest hint of an understanding of what they are quoting. They chose four chords from a piano sonata - an intimate genre that was not even meant for a concert hall, but the privacy of a solitary home or a salon at the most - and of all things from one of the most intimate movements in Beethoven's entire work of piano sonata, to turn it into ten gigantic screaming minutes of utter boredom.

Citing the opening motif from Beethoven's fifth later on does a service to Beethoven at least: it's an impressive demonstration of how geniusly Beethoven treated this little motif (a motif that really is nothing much on it's own) throughout the symphony. As compared to what average Joe on a laptop will do to it.

To me this is the analogon of repeatedly shouting one sentence out of a Shakespeare play through a megaphone for ten minutes. It's not exactly a sign of deep understanding or respect for the subject, nor something I would want to listen to if I could be listening to the original instead.

And if you look for musical reasons for the Beethoven-quotes, there are non that I could find. Whoever did this could just as easily have come up with a four chord sequency by themselves. So it is done solely because people know it, which generates clicks. Isn't that just cheap and boring?

It's not that I think it's a sacrilege to 'screw' with Beethoven's music or anything. But I think that you are not doing yourself a favor if you do, because Beethoven treated the material perfectly - and that's the comparison your exposing yourself to. It's not one that is destined to make any composer look good.


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## fretti (Apr 20, 2018)

muk said:


> The production quality is astonishing. And that's about all the good things I can say about this video. There is not even the faintest hint of an understanding of what they are quoting. They chose four chords from a piano sonata - an intimate genre that was not even meant for a concert hall, but the privacy of a solitary home or a salon at the most - and of all things from one of the most intimate movements in Beethoven's entire work of piano sonata, to turn it into ten gigantic screaming minutes of utter boredom.
> 
> Citing the opening motif from Beethoven's fifth later on does a service to Beethoven at least: it's an impressive demonstration of how geniusly Beethoven treated this little motif (a motif that really is nothing much on it's own) throughout the symphony. As compared to what average Joe on a laptop will do to it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your statement!
Yes I agree with you. I was curious how people with different music tastes will see this.
Beethoven is one of my favorite composers, so I wouldn't listen to this either when having access to the original (tbh I probably won't ever really listen to the whole thing itself again).
Yes it's clickbait, I only clicked because I wanted to know what they did to iconic classical works. 
It's obviously no new interpretation of the pieces chosen, and yes, as you said the actual notes/pieces out them were chords everyone (with at least a little knowledge to music) could have come up with.

Would love to here someone who is into this music and if he or she can actually take something out of it (as for me this music style sounds always the same from some point in the song...)? If they see this as "pushing boundaries"?! Found it interesting though as it isn't "just" an electronic remix (at least as far as I know that doesn't count to such genre) where the actual music is electronically "abused"...here it is at least "abused" with "new" sounds and loud BRAAMS...


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## NoamL (Apr 20, 2018)

fretti said:


> Would love to here someone who is into this music and if he or she can actually take something out of it



Sure, two things.

First, as @muk correctly said, it takes some skill to produce this sort of thing so even if you don't like the end result, you can appreciate the production and mix. Something to keep in mind with ANY genre of music you don't like.... I always focus on the production and mix when I listen to radio pop 

Second, there is room to appreciate these pieces artistically once it's understood that the form is DELIBERATELY strict and narrow.

Late classical and Romantic music is all about constructing forms so huge that eventually form itself becomes invisible. These trailer pieces are like a return to the mentality where a piece of music is of X genre and therefore has some strict form Y which unfolds within a few minutes.

This was something Baroque composers were very well-versed with (courante, allemande, concerto, etc). They understood and expected that a listener would recognize within the first few notes that a particular piece is a sarabande, and then they would follow along with the form of a sarabande in their head as they listened to the music.

Strict, foregrounded form doesn't mean the composer lacks imagination or they are just "following a formula."

Think about a building you've been in where the architectural elements are deliberately exposed, perhaps a convention center or airport terminal:







This isn't ugly or stupid, right? It's not like the architect "forgot" to put drywall on all these exposed steel beams.

So, these pieces are taking place within a form of repeated chord progressions - with very few in-genre options, by the way, for doing anything besides major or minor chords. For instance add9s, add6s and maj7s are permitted, but only on certain chords. And naturally, the chord progression has to cycle back to its own beginning, so not only is there not any modulation, but the start chord (almost always *i* or *bVI*) and end chord (usually *bVI*, *bVII*, or *V*) have very few options. And as a final restriction, you have to get from start to finish within 4 or 8 measures.

The goal is, within that very narrow language, how do you keep the listener's interest, and keep a sense of momentum going. Often it relies on a "third act twist" where some countermelody is added, or the harmony is shifted (*i* is substituted by *bVI* for instance). So that not only does the music go up a notch in intensity for the third act, but it also feels as if something revelatory is happening.

All of this is not new in film music by the way. Film composers have always had a good reason for experimenting with this form. It puts less demand on the listener. Music that is super developmental and nimble and modulatory naturally _*foregrounds itself*_, it demands attention. Music that cycles can stay in the background.

Some examples of how this musical form is NOT just "one note johnnies" smashing their MIDI keyboards:


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## NoamL (Apr 20, 2018)

Also, the artist behind these pieces almost surely wasn't trying to "top" Beethoven. I will bet $100 that what really happened is this person got a note from a music editor that "We get trailers all the time that are temped with classical and the trailer guys want a "trailer version" of it. Can you write up some Epic Trailer Beethoven so we have something to anticipate these requests and outflank other libraries?" And then the poor guy goes "Ah fuck how am I going to do this" and goes and does his best (or her best). I thought the Moonlight Sonata one at least had some interesting harmonic tricks.

This is no different to the million and one "sideways" copies of Yakety Sax out there. Can't you write your own wacky music? Yes, but people temp Yakety Sax and then look for something cheap to license that has the same musical idea. The world of production music is all about writing to the brief. I know a composer who has probably written 5 or 6 "versions" of yakety music in the past 3 years for various projects, and IMO one of those versions is better than the original!

Again, that's nothing new in film music either...

(21:20)





Pretty obvious that JW did it better, eh? Despite being "second" to the idea.


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## fretti (Apr 20, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Sure, two things.
> 
> First, as @muk correctly said, it takes some skill to produce this sort of thing so even if you don't like the end result, you can appreciate the production and mix. Something to keep in mind with ANY genre of music you don't like.... I always focus on the production and mix when I listen to radio pop
> 
> ...



Thanks for your lengthy response(s). Kind of wanted to trigger the discussion here a little I have to say though, as I wanted one where every aspect is seen (and not just „it‘s not music“ or so). It definitely is, it‘s also art. My point was never to say it is not produced good or so. It obviously is produced well, I only wanted to go into the music itself. Am currently on my phone so I can‘t write a response to the points touched by you, but I definitely will later (probably tomorrow though)


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## yhomas (Apr 20, 2018)

muk said:


> The production quality is astonishing. And that's about all the good things I can say about this video. There is not even the faintest hint of an understanding of what they are quoting. They chose four chords from a piano sonata - an intimate genre that was not even meant for a concert hall, but the privacy of a solitary home or a salon at the most - and of all things from one of the most intimate movements in Beethoven's entire work of piano sonata, to turn it into ten gigantic screaming minutes of utter boredom.
> 
> Citing the opening motif from Beethoven's fifth later on does a service to Beethoven at least: it's an impressive demonstration of how geniusly Beethoven treated this little motif (a motif that really is nothing much on it's own) throughout the symphony. As compared to what average Joe on a laptop will do to it.
> 
> ...



I have a different take. If an artist can’t make great music with Beethoven’s source material, odds are they would only do worse without the help. I would rather listen to even stale shadows of great works than freshly composed drivel.


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## muk (Apr 21, 2018)

Great posts @NoamL!



NoamL said:


> The goal is, within that very narrow language, how do you keep the listener's interest, and keep a sense of momentum going.



Good trailer music does that cleverly, no doubt. I just don’t get why you would narrow your musical tools so heavily. The best music, in my mind, uses all musical aspects to the fullest. It keeps interest through motivic, harmonic, orchestrational, and structural development. Trailer, on the other hand, focuses heavily on the production side. It is highly polished music, but the musical content itself is often rather bland. It doesn’t develop its own form through its content. Instead it reverts to the same old template over and over again. It doesn’t use motivic or harmonic development. It’s on orchestration and production that its focus lies I think. I am no specialist in trailer music though. It’s possible that I missed the best of it.

Interesting point about cycling to stay in the background. It’s just that I think the sheer bombast and loudness of trailer works against that. It is so loud and epic, it’s shouting in your face. That’s not something that is ideal for staying in the background. I guess this contradiction is one of the issues I often have with trailer music: the musical content is designed to stay in the background. It is very simple and repetitive. That would be great for underscore. But the presentation is the exact opposite: it is as loud as it possibly can be, shouting to grab attention. That just doesn’t go together well for my taste. And that’s why trailer music often feels pretentious to me. It’s shouting trivialities at the top of your voice. A well trained, beautiful singer’s voice, though. I’ll give you that.

About the artist not trying to top Beethoven: I’m sure she/he wasn’t. But it doesn’t matter, the comparison with Beethoven is on by using some of his ideas. And in my opinion it doesn’t matter whose idea it was to make a Beethoven trailer, if it was the composers or a clients. The intention behind is quite clearly clickbait, and that’s cheap. The composer could easily have said that it is not a good idea. Or do it, get the clicks and probably money, but not looking good for it.

@yhomas to me the greatness of Beethoven’s music to no small part lies in his treatment of the source material. Often much more so than in the source material itself. Take that opening motif of the fifth symphony, for example. On itself it really is not that special at all. Anybody could come up with a minor third. It is almost more a rhythm than a proper motif. The magic is that that is all it takes for Beethoven to create an entire symphony. The genius lies not in the motif in this case, but in its treatment and relentless presence throughout the whole symphony. If you only use the motif for its iconicity you really missed all the good stuff.


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## fretti (Apr 21, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Sure, two things.
> 
> First, as @muk correctly said, it takes some skill to produce this sort of thing so even if you don't like the end result, you can appreciate the production and mix. Something to keep in mind with ANY genre of music you don't like.... I always focus on the production and mix when I listen to radio pop
> 
> ...



So again: thank you very much for your answer! It was definitely a new perspective to see that music (nowadays mostly trailer music I'd say) in, of wich I never thought about.
That trailer music follows a certain "formula" is known, yes. The scheme itself hasn't really changed in the last few years, but I think the hybrid trailers are now so dominant that they tend to all sound the same. Maybe they use the same libraries even, don't know really who does these by person though (other then that many are by Audiomachine and companies/labels like that)...

I found it interesting how people would "attack" such a topic with classical music. Not for nothing there is the saying "Nachahmung ist die höchste Form der Anerkennung". Though this isn't really imitation of Beethoven, but rather the use of his iconic themes under different circumstances...
The thing I found problematic is that Beethoven seems to be one of few composers and his 5th seems to be one few pieces where this would work (in that way at least). After the first few notes wich everybody knows unfolds a complex interaction between the whole orchestra. You just can't make that bigger without losing what was originally intended...but who knows what Beethoven himself would have done with the technical possibilities for music today...

But having said that, I find it actually all the more interesting now, how the "composer" in the video played around this theme without it getting boring or losing the recognisability what music it is grounded on.
Guess it isn't just "plain and stupid" (never thought that though) but with very much thought of how to "attack" that topic!

(Slow) Piano pieces seem to work better, if not always work for that. But in the end the beginning/ 1st movement of the moonshine sonata is nothing but a cis-minor [when I remember correctly] chord played in variation and developments or chord progressions. Without these variations for me it would be "just a piano piece". Couldn't tell if from Beethoven or something everybody could come up with by playing around on a keyboard.
Would be interesting to see that with the 3rd movement (if anyone on this forum wants to give it a shot, there you go):


Or Arnold Schönberg:


The form itself is narrow, yes. Do composers in this field lack imagination, no. But it looks that nowadays the "allowed" things in trailer-music/this music style is so narrowed down itself, that I'm just waiting for something/someone new, who breaks "all" conventions of todays trailer music. But isn't that how music has evolved for the last 500 years? And I think Beethoven would be all but "annoyed" if he'd saw that his music was used in that way. He himself had played a huge role in what todays orchestras and orchestral music look like...
I see that the purism and the expression of trailer music follows rules older than anyone on this forum, just with different "instruments".

It is greatly produced, but it's nothing I will listen to on my way to university; not because I don't like it, but because it's just not what I listen to on a daily basis...but then again I don't listen the whole day to Beethovens 5th over and over again (at least not always).
The pieces of such componists are complete in the way they are..."even" Arnold Schönbergs music has some kind of beauty, even if it isn't what we normally would see as beauty.
But in the end I am quite happy that the video is titled "Like you never heard before" and not "Beethoven made even bigger" or "Beethoven newly interpreted" or something like that, as that I don't think it is; I see it more as the idea of Beethoven continued in a way.


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## KEM (Apr 21, 2018)

I like it, you see, I’m 20 years old, so this is much more my generation, us young kids like everything to be insanely loud at all times haha. 

I can’t really listen to classical music at all for that reason, I respect the craft and level of artistry, but the music is just to quiet, if I can’t hear it in my car then I just can’t listen to it. I’ve tried listening to classical music in my car and even when it’s all the way up my engine is still louder, so I just can’t do it. 

And to be fair I usually don’t like the whole “epic” music, I do think it’s getting a little played out and overdone at this point, but to me this version is more listenable than the original version (sacrilege around here, I know...), and as others have said, the production is second to none, absolutely stellar.


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## fretti (Apr 21, 2018)

KEM said:


> I like it, you see, I’m 20 years old, so this is much more my generation, us young kids like everything to be insanely loud at all times haha.
> 
> I can’t really listen to classical music at all for that reason, I respect the craft and level of artistry, but the music is just to quiet, if I can’t hear it in my car then I just can’t listen to it. I’ve tried listening to classical music in my car and even when it’s all the way up my engine is still louder, so I just can’t do it.
> 
> And to be fair I usually don’t like the whole “epic” music, I do think it’s getting a little played out and overdone at this point, but to me this version is more listenable than the original version (sacrilege around here, I know...), and as others have said, the production is second to none, absolutely stellar.


Well it's funny that you say that, because I'm 21.
Yes listening to it on the car-radio is not possible, even with headphones I don't hear anything while riding the bus, train etc...
My daily music is more rock/metal (a little more aggressive styles though when riding home), when driving myself, mostly pop, as there I just can listen without thinking about it to much...But I often listen to classical music too.

But my parents work in that music field, and growing up in Germany there is no way to not touch classical music (same goes for literature) as the composers and their legacy "surround" us everywhere. So I certainly had a different approach to classical music than most people our age have. Probably 80% of my classmates hated doing classical music in school though...


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## Living Fossil (Apr 21, 2018)

fretti said:


> Especially interested in what you think about "doing" this to classical music or older scores (Star Wars etc....) is it refreshing or just becoming more and more boring for you?



I've just heard the first 2 minutes and i think it's funny and tasteless at the same time.
It could work in the right context as a parody (e.g. a family guy episode where Stewy discovers his talent as a composer).

If seen in a purely musical - serious - way, it's of course a major dumbing down... 

p.s. if it comes to making a Beethoven parody, i clearly prefer this one:


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## yhomas (Apr 21, 2018)

muk said:


> Great posts @NoamL!
> ...Trailer, on the other hand, focuses heavily on the production side. It is highly polished music, but the musical content itself is often rather bland. It doesn’t develop its own form through its content. Instead it reverts to the same old template over and over again.
> ...
> @yhomas to me the greatness of Beethoven’s music to no small part lies in his treatment of the source material. Often much more so than in the source material itself. Take that opening motif of the fifth symphony, for example. On itself it really is not that special at all. Anybody could come up with a minor third. It is almost more a rhythm than a proper motif. The magic is that that is all it takes for Beethoven to create an entire symphony. The genius lies not in the motif in this case, but in its treatment and relentless presence throughout the whole symphony. If you only use the motif for its iconicity you really missed all the good stuff.



I agree about trailer music lacking musical content. This is overwhelmingly true of current film music, and a general problem across a lot of genres. 

But I disagree that the Moonlight Sonata opening its self isn’t something special; this is one of the most iconic and memorable bits of music ever created. I’m sure you are right about genius encoded in the complex treatment, but few people can ever really be in a position to appreciate genius. 

When I’m listening to music, I want some actual musical content to latch onto; this is something found (perhaps by definition) in all the great works; but all too often these days, when I try to listen to something, there is basically no musical content to be found. 

A lot of times, someone is attempting something fairly simple—which is fine—but the music doesn’t do anything. It isn’t memorable/iconic, it isn’t emotionally moving or intellectually interesting. 

IMO, if one’s composition can’t rise above a reasonable standard, why bother laboring over making a recording of it? Instead, try harder on the composition. 

When I was a teenager, I wrote/recorded some mediocre music, and gave a copy to a friend. She never actually came out and said she didn’t like it, but basically she questioned the point of the music—and she was right.

People instinctively think that when they do their very best to write a piece of music, their composition will be good—or at least have positive value. (No doubt, it sounds good enough to the composer’s ear.). But in reality, it’s usually lackluster from the start, and never goes anywhere from there.

God forbid you tell someone their work “isn’t great” though. IMO, a lot of people’s taste is such that they honestly have no idea—like the tone deaf person loudly singing next to you in church. Would we all be better off being honest with these people?


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## fretti (Apr 21, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> It could work in the right context as a parody (e.g. a family guy episode where Stewy discovers his talent as a composer).


Reminded me of this, if you don't already know it:


But Helge Schneider truly is one of a kind!
When it comes to musical parodies I also love Hape Kerkelings "Hurz" don't have a video right away though, but I guess that is widely know today.


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## Living Fossil (Apr 21, 2018)

@fretti : wow, i didn't know that... Shame on me that i could think that there wasn't such an episode yet... 

p.s. "Hurz" is in fact a classic! Maybe we should start a thread with musical parodies...


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## fretti (Apr 21, 2018)

Living Fossil said:


> Maybe we should start a thread with musical parodies...


I would love to see and hear what I missed so far!


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## Living Fossil (Apr 21, 2018)

@fretti : here it is


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## KEM (Apr 22, 2018)

fretti said:


> Well it's funny that you say that, because I'm 21.
> Yes listening to it on the car-radio is not possible, even with headphones I don't hear anything while riding the bus, train etc...
> My daily music is more rock/metal (a little more aggressive styles though when riding home), when driving myself, mostly pop, as there I just can listen without thinking about it to much...But I often listen to classical music too.
> 
> But my parents work in that music field, and growing up in Germany there is no way to not touch classical music (same goes for literature) as the composers and their legacy "surround" us everywhere. So I certainly had a different approach to classical music than most people our age have. Probably 80% of my classmates hated doing classical music in school though...



I’m definitely a metal guy myself, I come from the Christian Metalcore scene, that’s how I got my start with music.


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## muk (Apr 22, 2018)

As an aside, here is an example of a recomposition of well known music that I find much more succesful. In my opinion the trailerized 'Beethoven' doesn't hold a candle compared to this:


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## Manaberry (Apr 25, 2018)

I tried to listen at the music of OP's first post. It was really hard to keep listening for more than 15 seconds. That was way too much for my ears..

The Vivaldi's recomposition by Richter is one of my favorite. I'm glad you are pointing it out @muk !
Using such a well known music require some respect. I can't hear any in the Beethoven 'trailorized' version.


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