# Socialism



## Niah (May 26, 2012)

So what is it?

Like most people these days I am too lazy to use google search for these things so I went right away to my favorite place...google images.

And I found this really funny picture, that I'm now using on this forum as my avatar, with the word "socialism" + this thing with a hammer. I have seen this hammer thing before mostly used by communist parties around the world. Socialist parties on the other hand do not use this symbol.

Is it possible that some people, responsible for pictures like this, can mistake communist for socialism?

This guerrilla dude seems to as concerned about this misconception as I am.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6yAp5UDMio


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## FredrikJonasson (May 26, 2012)

This post (in http://www.vi-control.net/forum/vie...#3629808&sid=43cd39c0605179de8dea5d3c714dbd0d) annoyed me to that level that I had to take it over here. 



Jeffrey Peterson @ Thu May 24 said:


> What is the deal with the Socialist Thumbnail Niah? Are you trying to convert the world to socialism? Do you want me to share all of my hard earned money with you and others who didn't work for it at all?



This makes me think of a (sarcastic) christmas story here in Sweden: "Tyco was the kind of man that believed that everyone that gave something away voluntarily was a communist." 

The thumbnail is a bit over the top perhaps, but what are you talking about?


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2012)

It's called a sickle.


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## chimuelo (May 26, 2012)

It implies that everyone must work, so the USA could never become Socialistic sadly.
Way too many folks have had a comfortable lifestyle being paid to stay home, or work in a Federal Agency meant to watch the taxpayers money as they go to Hawaii and Las Vegas.

Sean Penn is always getting a bad rap but he was in Haiti with his own money before anyone else showed up, so if he wants to talk about how Cuba has a better Health Care system, he's earned the right.
He just conveniently leaves out the reason why their Care is easy and cheaper.
They killed all of the trial lawyers, costs went down by the billions within a week....


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## NYC Composer (May 26, 2012)

He meant what most people who make this statement mean-

"I got mine, go get yours-I'm not sharing."

This Ayn Rand-induced concept takes issue with the idea that if one has enough and one's neighbor is in trouble, well, too bad. Sharing is evil. Helping one another is evil. It leads to kindness, compassion, social responsibiity. We certainly can't have any of that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2012)

Exactly. And the reason for not sharing is that everyone except me is lazy and deserves to suffer.


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## José Herring (May 26, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat May 26 said:


> He meant what most people who make this statement mean-
> 
> "I got mine, go get yours-I'm not sharing."
> 
> This Ayn Rand-induced concept takes issue with the idea that if one has enough and one's neighbor is in trouble, well, too bad. Sharing is evil. Helping one another is evil. It leads to kindness, compassion, social responsibiity. We certainly can't have any of that.



Unfortunately Socialism isn't the answer to that. Because under it, before too long, there's nothing left to share.


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## reid (May 26, 2012)

josejherring @ 26th May said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > He meant what most people who make this statement mean-
> ...



Give us some concrete examples of what you mean, Jose.


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## NYC Composer (May 26, 2012)

Because there's no perfect government, we struggle along with a capitalist base tempered by some compassionate socialism-and it wasn't working so badly before some extremely greedy and corrupt uber-capitalists screwed around so much they nearly brought the house down.

Yes, we need to control costs. Yes, we need to cut corruption way down. I just don't think you throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are compromises that can work. I don't want to live in a discompassionate society OR a lazy one. The truth usually lies somewhere between.


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## José Herring (May 26, 2012)

Europe burning. America trillions in debt. Russia collapsing. Cuba stuck in the 1950's. China not making any money until they started introducing capitalism.

Canada with 60% taxation.

Socialism is so accepted as a norm these days that there really isn't anything to compare it to. We haven't had capitalism in America since it collapsed in the 1930's.


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## José Herring (May 26, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat May 26 said:


> Because there's no perfect government, we struggle along with a capitalist base tempered by some compassionate socialism-and it wasn't working so badly before some extremely greedy and corrupt uber-capitalists screwed around so much they nearly brought the house down.
> 
> Yes, we need to control costs. Yes, we need to cut corruption way down. I just don't think you throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are compromises that can work. I don't want to live in a discompassionate society OR a lazy one. The truth usually lies somewhere between.



You are correct. 

But also the problem isn't with socialist ideals, which I think are noble, but with socialism-- economic plans they used to try to back those ideals.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2012)

He's just quoting that stupid Margaret F-ing Thatcher line. It's infuriatingly idiotic. Sorry Jose, but I despise that excrement. You'd do very well to stop spreading it; it's totally redneck.

Democratic socialism is a very good answer to that: it's capitalism that works.

You can have highly socialized economies that still manage to produce a lot and take care of people while rewarding hard work. Look at Scandinavia.

I'm not saying we should be that socialized in the US (because we're much bigger and less unified), but we've clearly moved way too far in the opposite direction over the past 30 years. The result is an economy that's not working.

Gary Reber, who I first met when he worked at Monster Cable in 1991, blogs about this a lot. He focuses on an important point: our system is skewed toward rentiers, meaning people who make money by owning things; until we have more shared ownership of the means of production (profit-sharing, etc.), our system will continue to be dysfunctional.

http://foreconomicjustice.com/1775/if-romneys-policies-come-from-business-where-do-ryans-come-from/ (http://foreconomicjustice.com/1775/if-r ... come-from/)

Socialism isn't a dirty word. We don't live in the world of Margaret Thatcher and that moronic dope Reagan anymore. The Cold War is over. A system with 24% of the national income going to the top 1% and 30% of business profits going to the financial sector can't be sustained.

So F Margaret Thatcher!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 26, 2012)

Okay.

Jose, you're conflating several different countries with very little in common, attacking Socialism capital S (which few people suggest), and spreading Republican Schweinhund crap about the debt.

Other than that I agree.


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## NYC Composer (May 26, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat May 26 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sat May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Because there's no perfect government, we struggle along with a capitalist base tempered by some compassionate socialism-and it wasn't working so badly before some extremely greedy and corrupt uber-capitalists screwed around so much they nearly brought the house down.
> ...



Agreed. We need to work on those plans and make them sustainable.
Cutting down corruption and consolidating some agencies might help.
So would single payer health insurance, but of course, we're not allowed to have a sensible system.


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## chimuelo (May 26, 2012)

We don't need Socialism, just a kinder, more compassionate form of Facism, which is what we are looking at right now.
Screw Dodd/Frank and these worthless Political ploys that go on un enforced.
MF Global lost investors money...?
Take it over, make it another Treasury Department Acquisition.

JP Morgan uses a foreign country to work around regulations here, of course they know the SEC and Feds can't walk and chew gum simultaneously.
Just pass harsher laws.Make such crap a crime.Then take them over.

But the key here is to have knowledgable CEOs running the show, as Politicians can't even design an effective Social program, the thought of them having so much cash and control cannot be allowed, but surely a percentage based profit system, and then the Treasury keeps the proceeds to pay down the debt and keep the Ponzi Schemes alive.

This is why no budget is ever passed, or why no elites in DC cut a single dime anywhere, but have SUper Pooper Committees, and more shell games.

Also, the corruption and fraud can continue otherwise nobody would show up in DC.

So relax guys, it's already happening and is just going to get bigger regardless of which " party " is in office.
Ask yourself who has accomplished more in the last 3 1/2 years in DC..............
Geitner and the Treasury, backed by the interest from all US Bonds and AIG, Ally Banks, GM.......we just need Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan, then every politicians dream of being like China will come true.
And all of us peasants can get a raise too.


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 26, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat May 26 said:


> Because there's no perfect government, we struggle along with a capitalist base tempered by some compassionate socialism-and it wasn't working so badly before some extremely greedy and corrupt uber-capitalists screwed around so much they nearly brought the house down.
> 
> Yes, we need to control costs. Yes, we need to cut corruption way down. I just don't think you throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are compromises that can work. I don't want to live in a discompassionate society OR a lazy one. The truth usually lies somewhere between.



+1

The GOP is trying to give socialism a bad name but in reasonable doses, it makes for a more humane society.
Jesus was a socialist


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 26, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat May 26 said:


> We haven't had capitalism in America since it collapsed in the 1930's.



So what exactly do we have here?
Totalitarianism?

BTW, China's economy is starting to go down the tube as well...


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## chimuelo (May 26, 2012)

+100 !!!!

Jesus kicked out the money lenders too.
Maybe we just need a guy with a white Robe who has long hair and a beard like the hippies in the 60s had, but instead of kicking out the money lenders ( they'll just run to Singapore ) take over the scam instead.
So many benefits.
Don't need to dance for Campaign contributions anymore.

But the new Jesus must be OK with Lesbians and Gays, etc. Afterall it's been 2000+ years, surely such minor changes are acceptable.
What a campaign that would make.....I can see the debates now.....everyone scratching and clawing each other, and Jesus can quote Scripture.

Imagine him and Romney( Mormon ) Ellison ( Muslim ) Lieberman ( Jewish ) all chatting about things. These guys don;t believe in Jesus but I betcha you can change their minds with a little cash. And having the Banks in your pocket, these guys will be reading the Bible in no time...


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## José Herring (May 26, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat May 26 said:


> Okay.
> 
> Jose, you're conflating several different countries with very little in common, attacking Socialism capital S (which few people suggest), and spreading Republican Schweinhund crap about the debt.
> 
> Other than that I agree.



I had prepared a big long statement, but after reading it I can boil it all down to one phrase.

NO I'M NOT. :lol:


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## José Herring (May 26, 2012)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat May 26 said:


> josejherring @ Sat May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > We haven't had capitalism in America since it collapsed in the 1930's.
> ...



We have here a soft socialism that's been in place since The New Deal. I actually don't find it all that appalling consider the alternative--Capitalism. Which I find too brutal a system to tolerate here on earth.

Everybody forgets that China before it was communist was capitalist. Feuding corporate states that plundered each other with massive armies in the quest for more wealth. God it was brutal.

Oh, Totalitarianism isn't an economic system.


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 26, 2012)

Well, if you're talking about economic systems, i seriously doubt that the US is a "soft socialist" economy. Capitalist all the way baby!

BTW, there was a very interesting article in the New York Times that correlated the top tier of capitalism (the 1%) to sociopaths = people that have total disregard for their fellow men (and women)
Very interesting and not surprising.
Estimated figure for people working in stock markets: 10 % are sociapaths... and they rule our world. Soft socialism?


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## José Herring (May 26, 2012)

Nah. It's soft socialism, but not so bad as Europe.

Often, people debate these things with no understanding of what socialism or capitalism really are.

There is capitalism but its heavily regulated by government who try there hardest to control the means of production. I mean shit, you can't even drive your car without paying government fees and licenses, much less decide you want to make a car and sell it.


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 26, 2012)

The idea that government is ruling this country is a weapon of propaganda created by the GOP. Of course they want people to think that government is the problem; and from the GOP's perspective it is. 
A properly functioning government keeps corporate power in check and represents the people.
Unless it is in the hands of the GOP (remember Bush and Cheney?)

A weak government allows a whole bunch of de-regulations that allow corporate power to go uncontested (remember Bush and Cheney?)

Soft socialism?
Dude, i lived in Europe before moving to the US and i can tell you this here is no socialism.

I am not sure who of the two of us doesn't understand the meaning of socialism here, but certainly, if one county in the whole world carries the flag of capitalism it certainly is the US of A.
Wall Street, Wall Mart, Apple, Pfizer, the NRA, the US military are all made in the USA.
Socialism...pfff...


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 26, 2012)

And as far as "bad in Europe" you'd probably be grateful to live there, 'cause you wouldn't have to work like a dog your whole life (and i mean 24/7) and would have more chances to smell the roses here and there, have free health care, cheap upper education and more time to spend with your family and friends.

If that's your idea of bad, then i guess socialism is bad.

Don't get me wrong, i am all for hard work.
But i'm also for social justice, and the USA and capitalism are not so strong about that....


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## José Herring (May 26, 2012)

Actually Europe is a prime example of how views get skewed. Most of Europe is actually closer to out right communism these days. Socialism being the 1/2 between capitalism and communism, according the the patron saint of communism Karl Marx.

So if you where to use Marx standard, USA is socialist and Britain by now is almost complete communism. I mean take a look at Britain. It's starting to look a lot like Russia did in the 1980's. Government housing galore, people standing in line to pay their rent at government offices. It's frightening.

And before you get all indignant about who's controlling what. Do a little experiment. Brew some beer and try and sell it on Ebay. Guess who'll com'a'knocin'. It will be the ATF.

Oh, and you really can't be talking about capitalism and then mention the military in the same sentence. Military is a socialist ideal.


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## Patrick de Caumette (May 26, 2012)

If you think the USA is a socialist country, i reckon the rest of the worl is communist then... :roll: 

And for sure the US military is a socialist entity. It is a well known fact.

Have a good night


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## reid (May 26, 2012)

josejherring @ 27th May said:


> Actually Europe is a prime example of how views get skewed. Most of Europe is actually closer to out right communism these days.



:shock: We're you high when you wrote this, or just testing new material for your stand-up act?


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## chimuelo (May 26, 2012)

http://www.freiewelt.net/video-29/eu%3A-treaty-of-debt---stop-it-now%21-%28engl.-version-von.html (http://www.freiewelt.net/video-29/eu%3A ... n-von.html)

Here's a new -ism for yuze guys.
Compliments of the Federal Reserve via the IMF via Swisse and the Deutsch Bank.


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## José Herring (May 26, 2012)

reid @ Sat May 26 said:


> josejherring @ 27th May said:
> 
> 
> > Actually Europe is a prime example of how views get skewed. Most of Europe is actually closer to out right communism these days.
> ...



Nah, it just happens to be true. If you live in it, then it's hard to see, but if you read Karl Marx, you'd be alarmed at how much of that book is considered common practice in Europe. Just the tax codes alone are an example.

Here are the Karl Marx main tenents of communism. I've underlined the ones that are in place in most of Europe:

Central banking system
Government controlled education
Government controlled labor
 Government ownership of transportation and communication vehicles
Government ownership of agricultural means and factories
Total abolition of private property
Property rights confiscation
Heavy income tax on everyone
Elimination of rights of inheritance
Regional planning


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## bdr (May 26, 2012)

A complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Ayn Rand. Sharing is not evil..in fact acceptable and expected. It just shouldn't be done at the point of a gun.



NYC Composer @ Sun May 27 said:


> He meant what most people who make this statement mean-
> 
> "I got mine, go get yours-I'm not sharing."
> 
> This Ayn Rand-induced concept takes issue with the idea that if one has enough and one's neighbor is in trouble, well, too bad. Sharing is evil. Helping one another is evil. It leads to kindness, compassion, social responsibiity. We certainly can't have any of that.


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> So if you where to use Marx standard, USA is socialist and Britain by now is almost complete communism. I mean take a look at Britain. It's starting to look a lot like Russia did in the 1980's. Government housing galore, people standing in line to pay their rent at government offices. It's frightening.


What a load of bollocks. :roll: 

D


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## paulcole (May 27, 2012)

Patrick de Caumette @ Sat May 26 said:


> Jesus was a socialist



Really?

No wonder they nailed him to cross.


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## paulcole (May 27, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:


> josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > So if you where to use Marx standard, USA is socialist and Britain by now is almost complete communism. I mean take a look at Britain. It's starting to look a lot like Russia did in the 1980's. Government housing galore, people standing in line to pay their rent at government offices. It's frightening.
> ...



Oh yeah? I must have just dreamt the last 13 years of labour then. Because they just about went out of their way to bust this place. The current labour leader was put there by Unison and the BBC to name just two. He is one chromosome away from outright communist and his shadow chancellor comes across as a fucking moron. So where's the bollocks in that? :roll: Most of the English are secretly hoping that Scotland actually WIN the independence vote. Let's all start handing out the bollocks on that one.


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## Nostradamus (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat May 26 said:


> Actually Europe is a prime example of how views get skewed. Most of Europe is actually closer to out right communism these days.



What a stupid nonsense. Europe is in trouble because of the deregulation of the financial markets. This is exactly he opposite of socialism. A few years ago even the social-democratic parties wanted to establish a "modern financial market" which results in removing lots of legal restrictions. Ever since the market is going wild and produces more and more financial bubbles and, generally, the money is redistributed to the rich while the poor people's income is decreasing more and more. Actually we are going the "American Way of Life". But I really hope that we will never reach the end of this sinister road. I don't want to see hundreds of thousands of homeless people, depending on food stamps. I don't want to see poor workers having 3 jobs and / or working 16-18 hours per day to support their family. I don't want to see people who are not able to pay for a health insurance. When THIS is communism, then it is quite welcome. 



> Socialism being the 1/2 between capitalism and communism, according the the patron saint of communism Karl Marx.



What exactly do you know about Marx? Well, I guess it.



> So if you where to use Marx standard, USA is socialist and Britain by now is almost complete communism.




Sorry, but this is to stupid to take the effort ....


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## reid (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ 27th May said:


> Nah, it just happens to be true. If you live in it, then it's hard to see, but if you read Karl Marx, you'd be alarmed at how much of that book is considered common practice in Europe. Just the tax codes alone are an example.



Phew - clearly just rehearsing your act: for a minute I thought you were being serious! :mrgreen:


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

paulcole @ Sun May 27 said:


> Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:
> ...


You obviously have no knowledge of what the communism system in Eastern Europe was like. I suggest you do a bit of history reading, and then see how close the UK is not to all of that. for a start the secret police would have already rounded you up. :lol: 

Regarding the previous administration, I don't really see how a communist system would have allowed the banks to run riot. In fact just the opposite would have happened. We don't have all the utilities owned by the state, nor is all education funded by the government and under direct governmental control. Isn't that what all the Academies fuss is about? the fact that the Governent is trying to give more control to the schools. I can only assume from your attitude that you are somehow feeling poor and want to blame the system. I certainly don't feel poor, and in a Communist society I would have nothing like as much money as I have now.

D


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## SergeD (May 27, 2012)

The truth about capitalism:

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite."
-- John Kenneth Galbraith

So, clearly, the opposite is the only way to go.

And the truth about where we are now:

"If you come to a fork in the road, take it."
-- Yogi Berra

I totally agree with the guy, whoever he is.


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## NYC Composer (May 27, 2012)

bdr @ Sun May 27 said:


> A complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Ayn Rand. Sharing is not evil..in fact acceptable and expected. It just shouldn't be done at the point of a gun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You'll have to point out the compassionate parts of Ayn Rand's literature to me-other than her deep compassion for (and sexual attraction to) the heroic, brawny capitalists she is so breathless about.


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## chimuelo (May 27, 2012)

I love threads filled with slaves talking about which form of captivity they prefer.
And nothing compares to a thread full of musicians, as we see things from a different perspective since we are happy, well I am. 
We do what we enjoy for a living, and since I live in a state where the Casinos actually pay for the public pensions and work with Catholic and private charities. It's much different than most States where the politicians decide what you can keep out of your pay and let the big guys slide. 
I like the -ism I live under. So much when I go to other State I am in shock that the slaves haven't revolted and continue to send the same 1% back to DC.

Happy Memorial Weekend.
Thank a veteran for having enough freedom to decide what your choice and quality of life is.


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## paulcole (May 27, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:


> paulcole @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:
> ...



Eastern European? Well you said it and then waffled about history books.

Try Soviet Russian Imperialism!!!! Nothing to do with communism. Communism is a theory only really ever practiced in China. You don't know what you're talking about. I'll leave this thread temporarily, to allow you to have sex with your money as much as you like.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (May 27, 2012)

FWIW, Canada is far from a socialist country. And we have a Conservative, far-from-Marx leader who would fit right in with the Republican party. And we don't have 60% taxes.


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## José Herring (May 27, 2012)

Jeez, touched off a bit of vitriol from our European bros.
You people need to learn to think.

Take the 10 tenets of communism by Karl Marx and compare them to what's happening in your countries. Then come back and tell me that most of Europe isn't communist.

But don't dismiss what I'm saying without first having a look. That would be just stupidity in it's highest form. Here are the ten main tenets of communism again:

Central banking system
Government controlled education
Government controlled labor
Government ownership of transportation and communication vehicles
Government ownership of agricultural means and factories
Total abolition of private property
Property rights confiscation
Heavy income tax on everyone
Elimination of rights of inheritance
Regional planning


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## chimuelo (May 27, 2012)

Hey Jose.
Don't let these Putos bother you.
The link I posted was from one of my brothas in Deutschland.
Germans are really pissed about their whole saving of the EU to benefit the same old world money that has controlled the game for literally Centuries.


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

paulcole @ Sun May 27 said:


> Eastern European? Well you said it and then waffled about history books.
> 
> Try Soviet Russian Imperialism!!!! Nothing to do with communism. Communism is a theory only really ever practiced in China. You don't know what you're talking about. I'll leave this thread temporarily, to allow you to have sex with your money as much as you like.


Please don't get personal. I suggest that you not only leave this thread, but also leave this forum.

D


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Jeez, touched off a bit of vitriol from our European bros.
> You people need to learn to think.
> 
> Take the 10 tenets of communism by Karl Marx and compare them to what's happening in your countries. Then come back and tell me that most of Europe isn't communist.
> ...


OK, I'll go through your points one by one as they apply to the UK.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Central banking system


We have the Bank of England, but also lots of independant banks.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Government controlled education


We do have some Government controlled Education (the majority), but also have many Public (which are private) schools, and more and more schools are currently opting out of local government control, which may or may not be a good thing. If it means they can teach whatever they like, then it's a bad thing, IMO. 



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Government controlled labor


We have no more or less govenment controlled labour than anyone else. We do, however, have a minimum wage, and it is pitifully low.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Government ownership of transportation and communication vehicles


No, all transportation is in private hands.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Government ownership of agricultural means and factories


There may be some government controlled farms and factories, but I don't know about them. All the ones I know about are in private hands.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Total abolition of private property


Nope, not in the UK.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Property rights confiscation


Nope, not in the UK.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Heavy income tax on everyone


Nope, not in the UK.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Elimination of rights of inheritance


Nope, not in the UK.



josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Regional planning


We do have regional planning, up to a point, but that is very necessary in a small country with lots of people.

I hope that you can see now that the UK is not a communist state. It's not even really socialist.

D


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## reid (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ 27th May said:


> Jeez, touched off a bit of vitriol from our European bros.
> You people need to learn to think.
> 
> Take the 10 tenets of communism by Karl Marx and compare them to what's happening in your countries. Then come back and tell me that most of Europe isn't communist.
> ...



Jose, until you can back your claims up with 'most of Europe' specific, non-generalized, current examples, then you're going to continue making yourself look foolish in the eyes of both your Yurpean forum bros and your forum bros from pretty much everywhere else around the globe.


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## George Caplan (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Jeez, touched off a bit of vitriol from our European bros.
> You people need to learn to think.



:lol: :lol: :lol: 

wow this subject has gotten my attention.

having spent over 25 years working in the gs london office and later independently trading in an office made up of non domiciled non uk people i have just got to laugh.

its very interesting to get a view from uk folks and then compare the way non uk folks actually see it when theyre there. im not saying one is either right or wrong and have no wish to take sides but there is definitely an issue going on over there and jose i think youre partly right.


the heavy taxation on uk residents is not thru income tax wholly. although i thought the 50% rate brought in was steep. i left but what is more apparent is the taxation as a whole. income tax there is just the thin end of the wedge. its their other taxes that are steep. taxes you dont necessarily see. 

the problem isnt communism but theyre current coalition may well lead to a near as dammit labor government in some years time that come very close to that. thats their problem. the guy theyve gotten in right now isnt right enough. hes an appeaser and tries to be all things to all men. 

i already said many times that if the uk were in the euro they would washed up. kaput. fried. finished for may years over. may well come to that anyway because they relied too much on euro exports. theyre markets have totally bombed and hopefully will in time recover for all concerned. like pension funds. :lol: 

and just from my history days hes right. soviet imperialist expansionism. not communism or whatever color you like to put on it.


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## Lex (May 27, 2012)

Communism, socialism, capitalism???

How about good old colonial imperialism, you know where you get complete control over your countries resources (while calling it free market and capitalism)
Make sure everyone stays within their class by helping selected rich get richer (you know, those few that became wealthy through hard work and labor in environment that just oozes fair play and equal opportunity), hit the middle and low class hard with taxes (cause you need the peasants to stay peasants, obedient, patriotic and working for your interests), help the banks however you can to prevent the peasants from owning anything while pushing them in to deep debt. And of course "liberate" as many countries as you can so that you can get their resources cheap and create "business" opportunities for your high class...

The way I see it, today there are only two power concepts out there ...the oligarchic colonial imperialism and social-democracy...most countries have a weird mixtures of both...some lean more to one side, some more to other..

alex


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2012)

Okay, I got a report to the moderator.

Suggestion: please lower it a notch.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2012)

....especially those*$%)# who disagree with me.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2012)

Sometimes I amuse myself too much.


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## José Herring (May 27, 2012)

It's not like the discussion is that heated. Wow. Pretty sensitive bunch.

any way, I agree with Lex. There's certainly a big power play going on. Lot's of misinformation being fed to the proletariat. So much so that we think that these extreme political ideas are actually normal. I guess we can blame our government sponsored education for that.

I have my son in private school. A school that doesn't teach with any kind of slant left or right. It's amazing to see him develop his own ideas based on his personality and his level of awareness. He's teaching me things.

I think the only way to break free is to question every political philosophy out there. Question everything and look for the truth. Question our education. I may not have the answer but one thing I know its true. There's no politically philosophy in play today that's truly working for the average man. That is so painfully obvious that it hardly bears mentioning.


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

I think that what confuses some people is that in the UK we have a very different idea about what is fair and what is not. To some people this may seem like the thin end of the wedge towards communism (which in my book is only a bad thing because humans are involved, so it can never work!).

Actually it doesn't really have much to do with communism. The indirect taxation may appear high, but when you consider that medical care is free and going to University doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I doubt that the cost is much different than it is for a middle class family in the US. I suppose that the difference is that US citizens have a choice about whether to be selfish and greedy, or not. We appear to have less of a choice in that regard. :lol: 

The 50% tax rate (that doesn't exist any more) is for any earned income above £150K. To my mind no individual needs more than that anyway. It's just greed. If that makes me a communist, then so be it.

D


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## José Herring (May 27, 2012)

Also very illuminating points Mr. Caplan.

I'm not concerned with either being right or wrong. I could care or less. What concerns me is why are so many people suffering so hard and why are some many of the greatest countries in the world failing so hard economically.


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Also very illuminating points Mr. Caplan.
> 
> I'm not concerned with either being right or wrong. I could care or less. What concerns me is why are so many people suffering so hard and why are some many of the greatest countries in the world failing so hard economically.


That's easy to answer. It's because some people are greedy and immoral and others are lazy and immoral. What to do about it is the real problem.

D


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2012)

Because we had a series of financial crashes, Jose. It's not because governments spend too much or because of extreme socialism (in fact I would argue that the conservative ideology that's buggering our country is beyond extreme). The economies in Europe and the US were producing plenty before the crash.

And we could get out of this in short order if the governments simply wrote people checks, preferably to do something useful but even that's not mandatory!


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## José Herring (May 27, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun May 27 said:


> Because we had a financial crash, Jose. It's not because governments spend too much.



Who said anything about spending? I don't mind government spending. Governments just need to know how to spend. Which by and large politicians are really bad at.

The question I ponder is given that capitalism and communism and socialism are complete failures can there be an economy based on something more enduring than these failed political philosophies?


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## NYC Composer (May 27, 2012)

The series of crashes lead back to Daryl's point.

Btw-I'm totally concerned with being right, or at least with being righter than Batzdorf. And I am.


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## NYC Composer (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> The question I ponder is given that capitalism and communism and socialism are complete failures can there be an economy based on something more enduring than these failed political philosophies?



Is English style socialism so bad, really? How many are starving? How many are without healthcare? How many are homeless and wandering the streets? Is it a police state?

How you define societal "success" and "failure" is subjective. One argument could be that if the basic needs of people are taken care of, everything else is aspirational, and to achieve one's aspirations, one usually has to put in the work.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2012)

"Right" as in "correct" or "more like my hero Ted Nugent?"

Jose, I wouldn't say that capitalism is a total failure at all. It's the perversion of capitalism we have today that's the failure (thanks to Elliot Spitzer for that line).

Few people other than Ted...Larry, I mean Larry...would argue for any pure ideology.


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## NYC Composer (May 27, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sun May 27 said:


> "Right" as in "correct" or "more like my hero Ted Nugent?"



I knew that wouldn't pass unnoticed, but I had hoped someone would chime in "pretty much anyone is righter than Batzdorf-even Mao.".

(umm...I argue for pure ideology??)


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## José Herring (May 27, 2012)

I'm of two minds. And really I don't know which one is correct. I wish I could resolve it.

One part of me thinks that there really isn't any point to having a society or country at all if that society can't at least guarantee the basic survival of the individual. 

The other part of me thinks that if people are given their daily bread they won't have much incentive to be productive. I see both at work in welfare recipients that I've known throughout the years.


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## choc0thrax (May 27, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> The other part of me thinks that if people are given their daily bread they won't have much incentive to be productive. I see both at work in welfare recipients that I've known throughout the years.



Some of them are still productive... There are many who collect welfare but also work under the table so they aren't paying any taxes on that income and use the taxes I pay to help ensure they can stand for twenty fucking minutes in line ahead of me buying an assortment of lottery tickets, smokes and beer... and maybe some twizzlers for the kids' dinner.

I'd much rather put my tax money towards forced sterilization of these people.


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## George Caplan (May 27, 2012)

choc0thrax @ Sun May 27 said:


> josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > The other part of me thinks that if people are given their daily bread they won't have much incentive to be productive. I see both at work in welfare recipients that I've known throughout the years.
> ...




:lol: :lol: :lol: i love this guy.

the tax on 150k has gone? heck I may just move back. :lol:


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

George Caplan @ Sun May 27 said:


> the tax on 150k has gone? heck I may just move back. :lol:


I didn't say it was gone. I said it wasn't 50%.

TBH anyone who would move to save a bit of tax is just greedy, so I'm sure you're not in that bracket. :wink: 

D


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## NYC Composer (May 27, 2012)

Why just have a boat when you can own a fleet.


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## Daryl (May 27, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun May 27 said:


> Why just have a boat when you can own a fleet.


Yeah, a lot of people seem to think like that. Whereas I'm more of the opinion that as I can only reside in one room at a time, I don't need a house with 25 bedrooms.

D


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 27, 2012)

> One part of me thinks that there really isn't any point to having a society or country at all if that society can't at least guarantee the basic survival of the individual.
> 
> The other part of me thinks that if people are given their daily bread they won't have much incentive to be productive. I see both at work in welfare recipients that I've known throughout the years.




Five willing applicants (averaged) for every job opening.


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## NYC Composer (May 27, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Why just have a boat when you can own a fleet.
> ...



Ditto.


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## chimuelo (May 28, 2012)

I think it was greedy 25 bedroom house owners that used their own money to pay farmers in Brazil to not slash and burn the Amazon as the UN sat on it's ass as usual discussing the next Nobel Peace Prize winner.
Also the greedy folks who own more than one boat that fund Greenpeace to harrass Japanese Whaling Fleets. They also make sure these massive deep net runs that discard the species they aren't hunting for get disrupted and often resort to using one net instead of 6 of them that stretch a mile. 
Bono spent millions of his own money along with the USA and other private donors to save 300,000 lives in their AIDs initiatives in Africa.
Where were the noble Socialists then, sitting on their ass at the UN talking about Cap & Trade, as millions died in Africa in the last 2 decades.
Tim MGraw and Faith Hill live in a big house that is more than they need, those greedy evil rich folks. Yet he is giving away 25 mortgage free homes to Veterans coming home. I am sure they'll agree with you guys about these evil rich guys who have more than they need and only think of themselves.

I am sure there's plenty of greedy capitalist like Warren Buffet who still haven't paid all of their back taxes but can't seem to contribute without a law being passed. What's stopping these purchasers of politicians....? 

This class envy crap is nausiating, but seems the media has successfully brainwashed the less capable into believeing anyone successful must be greedy.
So many good causes have been brought to the worlds political bodies and the public from wealthy people, not some fair share representative who's goal is to confiscate the excess and do the right thing with it.....

I grew up admiring the successful and rich and they are much better role models if they are involved in certain beliefs and causes that Government overlooks.
The thought of some Socialist State representative taking Paul McCartneys house as he has more than he needs is a dangerous concept.

What about Hans Zimmers massive Modular synth wall in his studio. Surely that's more than one man can use, the State should confiscate it, then have it at the Smithsonian so all of our Comrades can share it.


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

Now you're just being infantile. I applaud rich people who give lots of their money and time to charity. I don't applaud those who give nothing to the community.

D


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## Stephen Baysted (May 28, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:


> josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:
> ...




Daryl, the levels of taxes (both direct and indirect) in the UK are eyewateringly high when you add them all up (look at petrol prices, utility bills, VED, insurance tax etc). It's absolutely horrific in the UK (ok I'm feeling the pain right now as I am about to pay my corporation tax and file my VAT return this month, which is not exactly pleasant. And then in July, they'll be wanting my personal tax 'on account' too). Grrr. And let's not get into how they will then simply spunk my money up some pointless wall somewhere... 

You are correct, inheritance rights are not eliminated of course, but they are diminished and often curtailed by punitive taxation on estates (death duties). This given the prevailing property prices in the UK is often felt by those who might not have liquid assets (and certainly not enough to be fleeced (polite term) by the government because a relative has the misfortune to die and retain the property they have been left), but instead bricks and mortar in areas which they have lived for many many years when prices were much lower or the area was a crap hole and is now gentrified. 

Cheers


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

Stephen, have you taken into account the fact that education is free, health care is free and University entrance is much cheaper than countries who have lower taxes?

TBH if you are paying Corporation tax, your company is quite successful enough to stand that. You could always have paid yourself a higher dividend. :lol: 

VAT doesn't belong to you anyway. I am also paying my VAT, BTW. what a waste of a nice Monday afternoon. :wink: 

Regarding inheritance tax, I don't agree with the whole idea at all, but as the threshold is so high, it doesn't really concern me that much. 

D


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## Stephen Baysted (May 28, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:


> TBH if you are paying Corporation tax, your company is quite successful enough to stand that. You could always have paid yourself a higher dividend. :lol:
> 
> VAT doesn't belong to you anyway. I am also paying my VAT, BTW. what a waste of a nice Monday afternoon. :wink:
> 
> ...



Or I could take on an assistant or maybe even two and offset it - but then you're into a world of red tape and nightmares if you have employees in the UK/EU. 

On the VAT/Corp Tax: Hehe, yes indeed. Just dropped all the paperwork off at the accountant this morning. I'm waiting for his call tomorrow. I wonder how far the Govt. will make me bend over this time. 0oD


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

Stephen Baysted @ Mon May 28 said:


> Daryl @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > TBH if you are paying Corporation tax, your company is quite successful enough to stand that. You could always have paid yourself a higher dividend. :lol:
> ...


Hire your assistant as a freelance and get invoices from him/her. The freedom to add/reduce days will be greatly appreciated by most assistants and as they are not employees, there is no red tape to deal with.

D


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## Stephen Baysted (May 28, 2012)

Been down that route once or twice, and it can get tricky (you know what I mean).


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## Daryl (May 28, 2012)

Stephen Baysted @ Mon May 28 said:


> Been down that route once or twice, and it can get tricky (you know what I mean).


I do indeed.

D


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## KEnK (May 28, 2012)

Interesting to see the American's who are dissing the Canadian and European
economic systems the hardest are doing so not w/ facts, 
but w/ Reagan era propaganda. (Or maybe it's Fox instead of Facts)

The "Socialism" that you are so suspicious of is actually helping people live better.

Yes- Europeans live better than Americans.
Easy to see if you spend any time at all there.

And I'm talking about average working class people.

Yes- there's an economic crises there now.
But this doesn't negate the entire system.

Spend a few months there.
You'll see for yourself.

Nah, don't bother...
You might miss a Tea Party Rally.

k


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## FredrikJonasson (May 28, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun May 27 said:


> Nah. It's soft socialism, but not so bad as Europe.
> 
> Often, people debate these things with no understanding of what socialism or capitalism really are.



Not so bad as Europe? :D 

It's true that it's hard to tell what's going on in a country if you're living in it, but why is it so important to state that Europe is so deeply influenced by Marx? Why does it matter what he wrote? The (socialistic, even if many things have changed the last decades) welfare system here in Sweden that has gotten so much attention over the years obviously has made it possible for very, very many people to live a good life, compared to most countries. 

It sounds on your description like where living in Soviet here. Please! :D


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## chimuelo (May 28, 2012)

It's very nice there, especially in Holland. Their dry docks and infrastructure are amazing, especially the massive water control system of Hydraulic concrete gates.
Europe reminds me of my Union. 
Everything is covered, you pay 20% more if you have preferred doctors, the pensions are excellent. 
A friend of mine got testical Cancer and the Union sent him to an out of State facility at UCLA I believe, and it didn't cost him a dime. 
In Las Vegas, it's pretty much a new town, and started being built in the early 60s. But those Hotels have all been imploded ( 6 of them ) and new infrastructure for the 5 year floods that just gather in one spot, Right where the Hotels are........... :mrgreen: 
So an entire new system of Flood Gates smaller in size but hydaullicy controlled Concrete gates are in place.

But everything here is Unionized, but also Right To Work laws that allow Unions to charge corporations more money to build, and lets the small start up businesses a chance to grow, and then themselves grow enough to get in on the Union bids.
We have no taxes, the Corporate owned Casinos cover that. They also pay the Teachers and Public employee Unions pensions. Recently an added room tax was added to keep our teachers employed. Seems to have worked.

Right now our unemployment and home forclosure are highest in the nation, but we are getting by fine as many private charities seem to have parterships with the State Government that houses entire families.
Not sure what kind of -ism we have, but we have Union and non Union, Left, middle and right all working together.

And of course the very well to do movie stars and successful entertainers live behind big walls with armed guards a mile down the road. Timberlake and Agassi have built Schools and hospitals here. 
Maybe not having taxes inspires some folks to give more.....?

Besides where else can a live juke box like me take home decent money and actually decide when and where I can vacation.
Much nicer going to Hawaii in Februrary, or Florida in April. Christmas vacations are always a drag as I must go back to the snowy midwest, where even taking a crap at the train station costs money.


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## José Herring (May 28, 2012)

KEnK @ Mon May 28 said:


> Interesting to see the American's who are dissing the Canadian and European
> economic systems the hardest are doing so not w/ facts,
> but w/ Reagan era propaganda. (Or maybe it's Fox instead of Facts)
> 
> ...



I have spent time there . I love Switzerland! I love Europe in general.

As far as living better....maybe...I'm not so sure about that. I would say that the average person due to government perks can live marginally better, but there's also not much chance of breaking above the general fray either.

But government perks won't last forever. History has shown us that repeatedly.

What strikes me is that the amount of truly poor people is far less in Europe. But, that's a fairly recent thing. And, the way Europe is heading politically, poverty is just around the corner.

Also, don't equate communism with Soviet style communism. I'm just talking economically.


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## NYC Composer (May 28, 2012)

I'm sure Bono thinks of himself as at least a partial Socialist, Jimmy. Maybe not Tim and Faith-the culture they live in would probably recoil.

it's not about socialism vs capitalism, anyway! As there IS no perfect government or economic system, my choice is a compassionate capitalism-a basic capitalistic approach with a social conscience. It worked more or less ok for the past 70 years until a bunch of insanely greedy financial "product creators" screwed the pooch. 

If ya want to blow it up, what do you propose?

Here's my proposal-legalize, tax and control all drugs except crack cocaine and crank. With the profits from marijuana alone, fund new treatments centers and education and have plenty left over to wipe out the deficit. Convert Mexico to a legal agrarian society raising marijuana. Buy Afghanistan's poppy crop and use some of it for pain management products, the other for registered heroin users, figure the rest as a subsidy for not going to war. Hey, we buy corn and cheese...

Legalize prostitution and sports book gambling nationally. Use those profits to build a new infrastructure and create a budget surplus with things people are already doing every day. You cannot legislate morality, but you sure as sh*t can tax it. With that money, maybe start a new real jobs training program so we can move into the 21st century without falling so far behind other, hungrier countries.

My plan takes a huge bite out of crime, empties prisons of small time users and sellers of drugs, and creates serious revenue for the government by taxing behavior that no one has ever been able to stop nor ever will.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 28, 2012)

> And, the way Europe is heading politically, poverty is just around the corner.



Europe has turned that corner. 25% unemployment in Spain.

And politics become most extreme during troubled times (duh). We've had a collection of conservative morons in the US all along, but they took over a lot of the government during the crisis.


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## chimuelo (May 28, 2012)

Paul Ryan is a Socialist now.
Confusing times. Makes you wonder why Beohner wasn't chosen for reading this script.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... l8j8Lpms_w

As the honorable Winston Churchill once said.......
“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2012)

KEnK @ Mon May 28 said:


> Interesting to see the American's who are dissing the Canadian and European
> economic systems the hardest are doing so not w/ facts,
> but w/ Reagan era propaganda. (Or maybe it's Fox instead of Facts)
> 
> ...



Yes, things are so good in Spain, Greece, and Italy right now :roll:


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## chimuelo (May 28, 2012)

NYC your ideas are on par with mine but common sense is not what keeps DC politicians with the mentality of service in mind. To bend their " familiy values " they must be greased with stock tips, favors and bearer Bonds are the most polpular as no names appear, just a payment.
I think once the fossils have been removed and we get new blood, the better off we'll be, even if they say they're a Republican or Democrat. Freshmen are much cheaper to control, and the Federal Reserve could save millions.
I mean after TARP, Stimulus and Son Of Stimulus, let some other " public servants " wet their beaks. 
If you ever really knew the true wealth of these guys youd be shocked. And I just cant for the life of me see a Greedy person who believes in anything except another dollar.
They need to go.

Remember James Trafficante, the corrupt Democrat who served time...? He was paid a handsome fee to not write a book and also for time served. They circle the wagons regardles of the fake cat fights and script readings...If you need a new example of buying the silence and signing the political pre nuptials, google Anthony Weiner, he's got a great gig, money for nothing and the chicks for free.....He should be in jail but never brought up on charges like a regular lewd pervert with underage women would have been.
I have a friend who was caught with a 17 year old hooker and I have to admit she was instant wood, and he's now a registered sex offender and has to get finger printed and treated like a second class citizen for years.
And Weiners wife is a muslim, where such criminal behavioir is a serious crime. Guess she goes to the Mosque for photo ops only since she works as a staffer for Hillary Clinton.........


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## NYC Composer (May 28, 2012)

chimuelo @ Mon May 28 said:


> NYC your ideas are on par with mine but common sense is not what keeps DC politicians with the mentality of service in mind. To bend their " familiy values " they must be greased with stock tips, favors and bearer Bonds are the most polpular as no names appear, just a payment.
> I think once the fossils have been removed and we get new blood, the better off we'll be, even if they say they're a Republican or Democrat. Freshmen are much cheaper to control, and the Federal Reserve could save millions.
> I mean after TARP, Stimulus and Son Of Stimulus, let some other " public servants " wet their beaks.
> If you ever really knew the true wealth of these guys youd be shocked. And I just cant for the life of me see a Greedy person who believes in anything except another dollar.
> ...



My point was-enough naysaying. Form your platform, work towards it, regardless of how unfeasible it might be. Make sense out of nonsense, if only for your own sanity. If you agree with my plan, add to it, or edit it. Soon we'll form a party of like-minded nutbags.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 28, 2012)

Jay, do you really disagree with what KEnK says? I think he's absolutely right. Again, the problems they're having right now aren't because they're too socialized, it's because of the financial crisis.

Actually it's precisely they're more socialized than we are that things aren't even worse in PIGS.


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## KEnK (May 29, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon May 28 said:


> KEnK @ Mon May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting to see the American's who are dissing the Canadian and European
> ...


What's happening there is a result of the same kind of top-down economic shenanigans that caused our economy to collapse.

And more likely some failed "debt" experiments with the Euro by the Banking Conglomerate.

Creating the Euro was a complex economic experiment. 
It's not inherently a "Socialism" issue.

Besides that, I offer Detroit as an answer to Spain, Italy and Greece.
In spite of the manufactured economic turmoil in Greece etc,
there are no large scale abandoned Ghost Towns there.

And Detroit is not the only "failed" city in the US.
I'm originally from Buffalo NY, 
Micheal Moore's "Roger and Me" was as much about Buffalo or any other rotting Northeastern city as it was about Flint Michigan.

European tourists probably don't visit Detroit much,
but if they do I bet they think it's like a third world country.

k


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## hbuus (May 29, 2012)

My girlfriend lived in the US for 11 years. I think it was in California. She said it was tough to live in a society with no safety net so to speak. So that if you got sick, you had to have an insurance, and even then you weren't necessarily covered, because insurance companies did what they could to get out of any liability.

It is my impression that living in the US is good or even great as long as things are going well for you. If you are gifted and are sought-after on the job market, things are okay. However if you are less fortunate, or if things suddenly do not go your way, you are better off living in Europe where there is a safety net. Where the state is there to help you so you don't hit rock bottom.

Best,
Henrik


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## Nostradamus (May 29, 2012)

KEnK @ Tue May 29 said:


> Creating the Euro was a complex economic experiment.
> It's not inherently a "Socialism" issue.



The Euro was a pure economical experiment. And it failed, or to be precisely, not the Euro itself failed but the European contract did. It was a miserable failure because all of those "experts of economics" ignored a bunch of important things which seems to be obvious afterwards. E.g. you can't accept countries to be a member of the European Union with a united currency when the economic power of that country is weak.


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## chimuelo (May 29, 2012)

Henrik is correct, but in California getting benefits is a simple trip, it's done in one day. The health care benefits take 6-8 weeks, but immediately you get Food Stamps and unemployment. Rent subsidies take another day, as it's a differnt branch. But she's right about the survival of the fittest. THe problem is we have millions of unfit people which is harder to satisfy in comparison to a smaller European Nation where it's representaitves are able to focus better.

It's basic economics regardles of the complexities many want to cloud the issues with.
Spending must remian constant, and in certain areas increase, where capital has been stagnant. Construction and Infrastructure is one example of where Federal money should be used.
Then you must have a realistic tax code that apllies to everyone. Taxes must be a sourece of revenue, not based on favors. 
These 2 " parties " have used the sky is falling nonsense for 20 years now, it needs to stop.

The Bush tax cuts didn't work while the economy was doing better, and trying to act like they'll suddenly work during a declining economy is a fairy tale.
But if Obamas administration continues their path of smothering small businesses, it's safe to assume he is a true Corporatist/Facist. He sat by and watched thousands of small community banks that leant money, get gobbled up the large banks that wont float contractors a payroll, or even a home equity loan.

Both parties have thier " stance " which are so far apart, I am shocked on Ryan backing Volckmer, and it's because we are winding down towards the debt ceiling increase.
We just need either new Freshmen who care about their citizens, or these fake representatives need to bite the bullet and represent the people for once.
They all got their stimulus money to spend, they enrichened themselves, while we lost.
If they don't comprimise, they should be removed.

I refuse to pull the handle for Harry Reid again, regardless of what my Union says.
I want a normal working mans Democrat. No more Millionaires, and Billionaires.
In California they need to strengthen Democrats like Laura Sanchez, and send Feinstein, Boxer and Pelosi home, they have benefitted more than anyone, and it's their husbands or family who have helped them cover their assets.

I'll just use one example where I actaully have several for each one of these priveledged elites. 

Diane Feinsteins husband is the Chairman Of Blum Capital, a Private Equity firm.
Weren't they the bad guys,,....? Evil job killers, etc.
Anyways, she chaired a committe on where Housing and Urban development takes place, so her husband knew the Feds plans well in advance, which then put him in a position to buy up entire neighborhoods as Californians were forced from their houses by the Banks, which BTW funded her campaign.

How in the Hell that benefits the people is beyond me.
And Daryl Issa wastes so much time bringing up the corruption at DOJ, which we all know about. It was evident when the Black Panthers were given a pass.
You can't remove an AG from office, and nobody goes to jail in DC.
So screw the grandstanding and fix the economy for the sake of the citizens.
What I see is a 12 year period where the first 6 years the GOP spent on their favorite programs, then 6 years where the Liberals got thier choices of programs.
Both have failed, and left us with a debt they seem to be unconcerned about.
FIne, they know more than we do, they know what Treasury is taking in, so myabe this 16 trillion dollar debt is fake. Let's assume it isn;t and we are being told part of the truth.
For these clowns to not pass a budget, and play these political games while Americans are dropping from the Middle Class in large numbers, they are failing, and should just leave. 
I have no use for either of these parties as they represent themselves on every chance they get.


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## KEnK (May 29, 2012)

Nostradamus @ Tue May 29 said:


> KEnK @ Tue May 29 said:
> 
> 
> > Creating the Euro was a complex economic experiment.
> ...


I don't think it has "failed" completely yet.
Even if Greece leaves the Euro it still may not entirely disappear.

I read NYT columnist Paul Krugman regularly.
Some people may characterize him as a "whining liberal",
but his economic forecasts are uncannily correct.
(Maybe that's why he won a Nobel Prize for Economics)

His general claim is the "Austerity Measures" as a remedy for the Euro Zone crises
is the exact wrong approach, and it is actually making the situation worse.

In a recent column he said the Euro could fail, 
but there is still time to prevent it's demise depending on the action of the Euro Banks.

As to our crises, he's repeatedly said that the only problem with the Economic
Stimulus Package was that it wasn't big enough to really turn things around.

He actually said that at the time.

k


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## KEnK (May 29, 2012)

hbuus @ Tue May 29 said:


> My girlfriend lived in the US for 11 years. I think it was in California. She said it was tough to live in a society with no safety net so to speak. So that if you got sick, you had to have an insurance, and even then you weren't necessarily covered, because insurance companies did what they could to get out of any liability.
> 
> It is my impression that living in the US is good or even great as long as things are going well for you. If you are gifted and are sought-after on the job market, things are okay. However if you are less fortunate, or if things suddenly do not go your way, you are better off living in Europe where there is a safety net. Where the state is there to help you so you don't hit rock bottom.
> 
> ...


The homeless situation in the US is a direct result of Reaganomics.

I was living in SF during the 80's.
I saw the amount of homeless and people asking for change increase almost monthly.

There is a more ingrained problem in the US regarding a recent trend towards
a permanent poor class. As education in the US becomes tied to economic stature,
(re: suburban vs. inner-city schools) what's being created is a functionally illiterate 
class and generation of people. They're not going to have the tools to be "upwardly mobile".

And education is continuing to be more of a commodity, not less.

Our country is just about to slip into Banana Republic Status,
and the GOP is saying "Every Man for Himself!"

Just like on a sinking ship...

k


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## José Herring (May 29, 2012)

Too many of you are equating social programs with socialism. There not the same.

Socialism is the government taking control of large swaths of the economy by taking over major industries that produce products, thus creating a monopoly and a lack of exchange. Without exchange the economy crumbles because after all, that is what an economy is, its the very definition of money--a medium of exchange.

So it fails, it always fails, and always will fail economically, because it creates a stagnant economy which violates the basic idea behind an economy. It's actually such a basic rule that it gets overlooked all the time. The rule is so basic that it's practically ingrained into our DNA.

You see this rule played out even in groups where there's no money. Even my kid at his school started a toy exchange program, where a kid swaps the toys he has for some other toys that he wants. They ended up bartering. 

The idea of exchange being that basic.

If a government wants to provide food and housing and health care for its people, I'm all for it. But, they'll have to do it in a better way than socialism.

I'm actually for the idea of government providing products and services to the people for profit as long as they have to play by the same rules as the rest of us, ie, no monopolies, ect....

To illustrate this point, I give you a question ponder. I'm in need of a New Daw computer. Anybody what to give me one? :lol:


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2012)

> The Euro was a pure economical experiment.



Actually I think it was more than economics - it was also an attempt to have a formally unified Europe. They did have a rather nasty war, and it was too recent.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2012)

Jose, you're arguing black and white high school political science, then arguing all over the map - literally - then Margaret Thatcher, 5-year plans, government ownership, teabag nonsense about your being given a free computer...I think you're having your own debate. Along the way you say things that I agree with and things that are half-baked and make me mad.

What are you saying?


----------



## José Herring (May 29, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue May 29 said:


> Jose, you're arguing black and white high school political science, then arguing all over the map - literally - then Margaret Thatcher, 5-year plans, government ownership, teabag nonsense about your being given a free computer...I think you're having your own debate. Along the way you say things that I agree with and things that are half-baked and make me mad.
> 
> What are you saying?



Yes, I am arguing with myself. It's the only way to cut through the propaganda and get at the truth.

And, no there's no such thing as political science. Politics is not a science. If it was a science then there would be applied scientific method to politics leading to predictable results that could be duplicated. You don't argue a science. But, you can argue politics all day long. Thus, the term "political science" is just a made up term to get tuition money.

And, I'm only making you mad because in my experience over the years I've noticed that you can only see things in left and right, right and wrong, ect... I'm saying that to solve the problems that we want to solve we have to have a bit more nuanced thinking than thinking that everything is a left and right issue. Both sides suck wind and are so full of lies, that I've gotten quite infuriated over the years.

Actually this discussion has helped me a lot. Made me see the bullshit I've accepted as true and makes me realize what I have to do to break free. 

Which is all I'm after. Sorry to upset you so.

José


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## KEnK (May 29, 2012)

josejherring @ Tue May 29 said:


> ...Socialism is the government taking control of large swaths of the economy by taking over major industries that produce products, thus creating a monopoly and a lack of exchange...


Seems to me that's more of a definition of Communism in it's purest state.
Over recent decades, there's become more of a gray or nuanced area between these
systems.

China is now mixing Communism and Capitalism, something not envisioned by 
Lenin, Marx or Mao.

Socialism, as practiced by Canada, Germany, Sweden etc includes private industry
and lots of personal freedoms.

There are economic controls of these Industries (re: Roosevelt),
and state run health care and schools.

A German friend once told me that health care and a University level
education are thought of as a right in Germany.

Of course these benefits come w/ allegedly higher taxes, but consider that our country
is being bankrupt by the Health Care Industry and maybe these taxes are actually cheaper in the long run.

Statistically, Europe is looking better then the US all the time.

k


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## hbuus (May 29, 2012)

All is not well in Europe though.

The high unemployment payment means many people have no or very little economic incentive to look for a job. To fight this, the state demands that you as an unemployed take part in various courses, for example in how to write a job application. It is generally accepted though, I think, that many of these courses are "stupid courses", i.e. more or less a waste of time. Therefore this "activation" as it is called in Denmark is seen as a punishment that unemloyed people want to avoid. And thus the incentive to find a job is there again.

Another problem is that the high tax rate kills high paid workers incentive to work harder or to educate themselves to get a higher job position. After all, who wants to work 1 hour if the state takes around 65% or 70% of your economic outcome of this 1 work hour?

A third problem is now starting to show. Schools and universities are free in Denmark but their use is based on a kind of social contract where each student accepts to be on the job market in Denmark at least for some years. Or, if they choose to work outside of Denmark, that they return to Denmark later on with new, better, skills for the job market and thus Danish companies. However we are now seeing new generations of young people who travel outside of Denmark to work, and do not return again. That's a problem because so to speak they never get to pay for their (free) education.

Hm, there are more problems I'm sure, but these are some of them at least.

Best,
Henrik


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 29, 2012)

Actually, Jose, it's the lack of nuance that makes me mad.  And your perception that I only see things as left/right wright/wrong is incorrect. What I don't do is suffer right-wing bullshit gladly.

To tell you the truth, I think that's the only difference between my views and those of most people on this forum (which tends to be more liberal than conservative). I don't pretend that there have to be two equally correct sides to every issue just because the American right chooses to to be on the wrong side of every one. Abortion has arguments on both sides. Whether global warming is caused by human activity doesn't. Whether the Ryan plan is good economics or going to produce a world anyone with a soul wants to live in is not a matter of opinion. It's wrong, it sucks, and I see no reason to pretend that people who disagree with me have a valid point. They don't, in fact they should be ashamed of themselves. 

Most of the time reality really is liberal, and the reason is that liberalism is pragmatic rather than ideological. The American right is so nutty that they believe liberals are equally nuts on the other extreme. It doesn't work that way; no liberal wants government intrusion in his life for no reason, or taxes for their own sake, or regulations that don't make sense.

In other words, ideologues twist reality to fit their ideology. A conservative ideologue says "Socialism and socialism bad." (He makes no distinction between the two.) A liberal says "some things are better socialized and others aren't." A conservative says "government bad so get rid of everything not private." A liberal says "many things should be public because we need them as a society and they don't need to make a profit. And they won't happen on their own." A conservative genuflects and says "free market." A liberal says "free market have many blind spots."

And so on.

What I get mad at is the basic "f you I'm okay" conservative attitude. Everyone but me is lazy, and the reason people aren't doing as well as I am is that they deserve it. And because of that, helping people is socialism, a word that means something similar to rape, arson, and murder rolled into one - only worse.

Well, did millions of people suddenly become lazy in 2008? Of course there will always be *some* lazy people. Of course people need a reward for their hard work. But I sort of think we've had a financial crash that has left a lot of people needing a social net. Even if it weren't better for all of us in the long term, I'd be in favor of not allowing people to starve!

It comes down to "me" vs. "we." Not being a sociopath, I prefer the latter.


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## George Caplan (May 29, 2012)

hbuus @ Tue May 29 said:


> All is not well in Europe though.



you dont say?

the problem goes way back. single currency preparations started in 1979 with the creation of the erm. naturally through the ensuing years this became of particular interest to currency traders and just as a sidebar way back when i started in the seventies bond trading was more or less a part time occupation. something you might do to enhance your vacation money. i wasnt a bond trader myself incidentally.

there were many pointers of today.for example the irish punt and it's parity relinquishment to the british pound. then in 1990 the uk joined the erm proper so to speak and lasted just 2years before black wednesday in september 92. laymen will never know what that day was like.
if the british pound couldnt retain parity with the franc and the dm and stay in its band then how is the euro going to work under this current enormous debt burden? especially 
in countries like spain where the property issue is like an anchor round their neck.

the euro zone has had 4 years to deal with this problem and have proved themselves to be totally sterile. trying to decide things by committee is a futile exercise in this case. you need someone really strong to lead. your eurozone is like a rudderless ship and if the markets continue to buckle under this strain for another 6 months to a year...well very very very serious problems socially and economically coming.


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## NYC Composer (May 29, 2012)

George Caplan @ Tue May 29 said:


> hbuus @ Tue May 29 said:
> 
> 
> > All is not well in Europe though.
> ...



It's so nice for the forum to have its very own Nouriel Roubini-better known in the markets as "Dr Doom".


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## José Herring (May 29, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue May 29 said:


> Actually, Jose, it's the lack of nuance that makes me mad.  And your perception that I only see things as left/right wright/wrong is incorrect. What I don't do is suffer right-wing [email protected]#t gladly.
> 
> To tell you the truth, I think that's the only difference between my views and those of most people on this forum (which tends to be more liberal than conservative). I don't pretend that there have to be two equally correct sides to every issue just because the American right chooses to to be on the wrong side of every one. Abortion has arguments on both sides. Whether global warming is caused by human activity doesn't. Whether the Ryan plan is good economics or going to produce a world anyone with a soul wants to live in is not a matter of opinion. It's wrong, it sucks, and I see no reason to pretend that people who disagree with me have a valid point. They don't, in fact they should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with anything you've said here. Pretty astute if you ask me.

That's not what I'm railing against. What I'm railing against is this. 100 years ago, the idea of socialism seemed to be the right thing in Europe. Take from the uber rich aristocracy and give to the people that were being crushed into indentured servitude by the ruling classes. Ok, then fine by me. But then 60 to 70 years later, there's hardly any ruling class left. So then they start taxing the hell out of working people to keep up with the demand for social services. So countries the taxes are so high, like hhbus mentioned, that it negates the desire to work. 

You're talking about a financial crisis that happened in 2008, like many places in Europe were not already in trouble before then.

I'm kind of running out of time to debate this anymore so I'm cutting myself short. 

I will end this by saying though that this isn't a slight against Europe. I was born an American, but my heart has always been in Europe. Even before I knew there was a Europe. If there's any group of countries that can save the world from itself they are with the boundaries of that continent. Not here in America. We're far too arrogant and aggressive to understand the nuances of life out side our borders. But, in the old empires of England, Greece and Spain, the old connections to the rest of the world still exist and they can still have influence, but they just need to get their economic ship in order.


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## Nostradamus (May 30, 2012)

@josejherring

"So countries the taxes are so high, like hhbus mentioned, that it negates the desire to work. "

But you know that a country need taxes to operate properly? The problem is that the more money you have the more possibilities are there to avoid taxes. So the man on the street has to carry the burden. What we need is an improvement of distributive justice.


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## paulcole (May 30, 2012)

Nostradamus @ Wed May 30 said:


> @josejherring
> 
> "So countries the taxes are so high, like hhbus mentioned, that it negates the desire to work. "
> 
> But you know that a country need taxes to operate properly? The problem is that the more money you have the more possibilities are there to avoid taxes. So the man on the street has to carry the burden. What we need is an improvement of distributive justice.



Yeah and you also need to get kids away from this "entitlement" culture.


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## NYC Composer (May 30, 2012)

A lot of kids, even right out of college, would like to be entitled to find a job. It seems reasonable enough to me- I mean, when i was a kid, it was easy to get a job. Now it's ridiculously hard. I think there are a lot of un-lazy people out of work-actually, I know there are.


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## Daryl (May 30, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Wed May 30 said:


> A lot of kids, even right out of college, would like to be entitled to find a job. It seems reasonable enough to me- I mean, when i was a kid, it was easy to get a job. Now it's ridiculously hard. I think there are a lot of un-lazy people out of work-actually, I know there are.


I agree, but the issues go much further than that in the UK. Unfortunately we have a system where more and more people are going to university, but not only are some of the degrees they are taking fairly meaningless, it also means that there are many more supposedly qualified people looking for work that firstly doesn't exist, and secondly they are actually not good enough to do. I would be in favour of reducing the number of University places, and making those more affordable. Then there shold be more training places availabe for other skills.

There is work around, but often not the sort that people want to do (or even can do in some cases). Therefore, I think that benefits should be worked for, rather than just given out. There are plenty of community based tasks that really need to be done, and this could become part of the benefit system. At the moment these jobs don't get done at all, due to lack of funds, yet there are people sitting at home doing nothing and claiming benefit.

It is also important that people don't get out of the habit of going to work, IMO. Community jobs could help with that.

D


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## NYC Composer (May 30, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed May 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of kids, even right out of college, would like to be entitled to find a job. It seems reasonable enough to me- I mean, when i was a kid, it was easy to get a job. Now it's ridiculously hard. I think there are a lot of un-lazy people out of work-actually, I know there are.
> ...



I agree-here too. Lots of infrastructure and general maintenance jobs that are left undone. I am for "workfare" as long as it's relatively humane
and not some half-assed prison gang setup.


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## JonFairhurst (May 30, 2012)

The Daily Show had an awesome take on "socialism", showing that it's just a term that's thrown about when the government gives money to interests who don't support your party. Subsidies for a solar energy company is socialist. Subsidies for methanol (corn) energy is capitalist. Tax breaks (i.e. subsidies) for oil companies is the American way.

It gets to the meat of it around 5:10.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episod ... elle-obama


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## George Caplan (May 30, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue May 29 said:


> It's so nice for the forum to have its very own Nouriel Roubini-better known in the markets as "Dr Doom".



hows is president bet going larry? dr doom is looking forward to collecting around november. and how are the markets today? no problems with europe or anything like that? :lol: 

theres a big difference to dr doom and reality. dr doom is now. making 5 million on a share was then.


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## José Herring (May 30, 2012)

George are we allowed to laugh at you if you don't collect?


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 30, 2012)

Daryl, having a less educated population in any country is exactly the wrong thing to do. All education is useful, whether or not you use it directly. And as a musician, surely you understand that! Very few people trained in the arts make their living doing what they trained for...yet that's the soul of humanity, i'nit. It makes economic sense too, though.

This gets down to the structural vs. financial argument that's been simmering in this country too. The argument is that there's a mismatch between the skills people are trained for and the jobs that are available (yes, I know that's not exactly what you're saying, but it is the argument).

And the reality is that unemployment is spread all across the board. If there were a mismatch, you'd see unemployment higher in the sectors where there's a shortage of qualified workers, along with a spike in wages for the workers in demand. That doesn't exist. (I mean it doesn't exist on a large scale - there are always positions that are hard to fill.)

What the "mismatch" argument really does is provide a convenient excuse for not doing anything to address the crisis. If the structural problems are insurmountable anyway, why bother doing what we should be doing: writing people checks to do something useful!

But your point about people getting out of the habit of working is completely true. Well, maybe not the habit, but the problem is that skills erode and become outdated. That in itself creates a long-term structural problem.

And it's why what governments around the world are doing - sitting on their hands, or worse engaging in destructive austerity - so wrong.


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## George Caplan (May 30, 2012)

josejherring @ Wed May 30 said:


> George are we allowed to laugh at you if you don't collect?



yes. you can have a massive collective one with lots of laughing signs all over a special colored thread that i am confident larry will post. 8)


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 30, 2012)

Jose, this is old hat, but it's a fact that we had the greatest period of sustained boom while the marginal tax rates in this country were 90%.

We are SO far from a tax system that stifles investment it's laughable. Our problem is 180 degrees the opposite.


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## chimuelo (May 30, 2012)

The unemployment debacle could be easily extended and even carry us through 2-3 more years.
Obivously nobody here collects it or knows about its negative effects. Very similar to the Welfare recipients.
But the unemployment benefits were actually earned so it's not like citizens don't deserve it, but it is flawed as wealthy DC politicians have written it, who know nothing about having job in the private sector.

Allow the participants their 99 weeks if their State qualifies, then let them seek and accept work, and regardless of the wages earned, let them collect when the job runs out as long as unemployment is double what is usually is.

The problem is one I have with many friends on the out of work list at the Trade Unions, Teamsters, Culinary or even Musicians.
If they earn more than 900+ take home during a quarter, they are disqualified for further benefits.

So ask yourself, do you prefer the Certainty of 99 weeks, or with a family to feed, take a chance on getting a gig, and pray it lasts long enough to bank some.

THis is why nobody will even take a job, they're not lazy, the politicians have never had a real job, it reflects on these written by laws of the benefits.

Just another example of Big Government stumbling everywhere from excessive layers of Bureaucracy.


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## José Herring (May 30, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 30 said:


> Jose, this is old hat, but it's a fact that we had the greatest period of sustained boom while the marginal tax rates in this country were 90%.
> 
> We are SO far from a tax system that stifles investment it's laughable. Our problem is 180 degrees the opposite.



That was back in the day when we had politicians smart enough to know how to manage money. Them days is long gone!


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 30, 2012)

Irrelevant, Your Honor.

What is relevant is that we had politicians who believed in investing in our country.


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## José Herring (May 30, 2012)

I have nothing more to say. I just wanted to get the last word!!


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## NYC Composer (May 30, 2012)

George Caplan @ Wed May 30 said:


> josejherring @ Wed May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > George are we allowed to laugh at you if you don't collect?
> ...



No worries, george. I'm not that much of a celebrator. I'm thinking if the popular vote doesn't work out, your boys can always get the Supremes to pull another fast one.


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## NYC Composer (May 30, 2012)

George Caplan @ Wed May 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue May 29 said:
> 
> 
> > It's so nice for the forum to have its very own Nouriel Roubini-better known in the markets as "Dr Doom".
> ...



george, how were the markets yesterday?

With all of your knowledge gained over years in the financial markets, you point to one day and say "see?" Hmm. Okay.

Btw-where was the Dow when Obama took office...something like 7700?


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## JonFairhurst (May 30, 2012)

It's hilarious that conservatives often look to the 1950s as the ideal time. Tax rates were much higher. We had massive debt/GDP due to WWII. We were still in the New Deal. We gave large amounts of foreign aid with the Marshal Plan. The GI Bill was a huge domestic social program. Economically speaking, the 50s were pretty much the opposite of what the Tea Party seeks.


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## José Herring (May 30, 2012)

Hind sight 20/20.

The conservative nostalgia for the past is just rooted in racism and white male dominance.


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## Daryl (May 30, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed May 30 said:


> Daryl, having a less educated population in any country is exactly the wrong thing to do. All education is useful, whether or not you use it directly. And as a musician, surely you understand that! Very few people trained in the arts make their living doing what they trained for...yet that's the soul of humanity, i'nit. It makes economic sense too, though.


I never suggested a less educated population. I class learning to be a plumber or electrician as education. It seems you don't. :shock: 

D


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 31, 2012)

That's absolutely right, I don't.

I consider them trades, and the world needs them as much as anything else. 

But the future of a country depends on higher education. And I hope that if you have children, they aren't forced to become plumbers instead of going to college.

(There's nothing wrong with becoming a plumber, but I know you catch my drift.)


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 31, 2012)

Robert Reich today:

http://robertreich.org/post/24103659262


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## Daryl (May 31, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu May 31 said:


> That's absolutely right, I don't.
> 
> I consider them trades, and the world needs them as much as anything else.
> 
> ...


If I had any children (hopefully not) and they struggled to get an E Grade at any of their GCSEs, University is the last place that they should go.

D


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## JonFairhurst (May 31, 2012)

Not everybody should pursue an advanced education.

However, everybody should have the *opportunity* to pursue an advanced education.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 31, 2012)

Exactly.

And there's no shortage of people with great potential who get bad grades in high school because they haven't matured.


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## Daryl (May 31, 2012)

JonFairhurst @ Thu May 31 said:


> Not everybody should pursue an advanced education.
> 
> However, everybody should have the *opportunity* to pursue an advanced education.


Of course, and I totally agree with that. What I don';t agree with is:

1) Creating a load of second rate Universities offering courses that have precious little academic content, just to push more people into Higher Education.

2) Giving the impression to students that if they don't go into Higher Education, that learning a trade (for example) is somehow second rate.

D


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## Daryl (May 31, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu May 31 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And there's no shortage of people with great potential who get bad grades in high school because they haven't matured.


Of course, and if they're not mature enough to pass their A Levels, then they're not mature enough to go to University. That's why re-takes are possible, as well as entry as a mature student.

D


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 31, 2012)

Oh, a lot of higher education is a total racket. No question. We just went through this whole ordeal with our daughter. The end of the story is that I couldn't be more delighted with the college she's going to in August - Bard College - but the process along the way is an unbelievable ordeal. And an absurdly expensive one before you even start paying the unbelievable price for college.

One school - Scripps - goaded her with a letter expressing great interest in her and saying that she should hurry up and apply early to ensure that she's eligible for the $20,000 scholarship. We took a drive out there, stayed overnight to be on time for her interview (which went very well - they were very enthusiastic)...and then she didn't get in. Worse, the letter was mean.

I totally disliked the college anyway - it's all women and it feels like a nunnery, not a stimulating environment. It was also wrong for her. But the point is that they lure kids into applying so that they can make their acceptance rate lower and their test standards higher (to say nothing of the $75 application fees). Actually, there was a scandal with inflated test scores at that college. Boo. Hiss. (Just to be clear, she got into several colleges that are better than Scripps - I don't want it to sound like she's low-calibre!)

Anyway, college is a huge racket with all kinds of peripheral people and organizations picking your pockets. But that's not the sum total of it!


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## handz (May 31, 2012)

Guys, I did not gone torugh whole thread but I live in "scoalistic" state (former comunist regime here) and I can tell you sometimes it is very similar


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## NYC Composer (May 31, 2012)

I'm 57-I think it's important to acknowledge that we had it easier, coming up.

I worked hard to achieve what I have, but the opportunities to make a small living as a musician were MUCH more numerous then. I'm just sayin'.


----------



## Daryl (Jun 1, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Thu May 31 said:


> Oh, a lot of higher education is a total racket. No question. We just went through this whole ordeal with our daughter. The end of the story is that I couldn't be more delighted with the college she's going to in August - Bard College - but the process along the way is an unbelievable ordeal. And an absurdly expensive one before you even start paying the unbelievable price for college.
> 
> One school - Scripps - goaded her with a letter expressing great interest in her and saying that she should hurry up and apply early to ensure that she's eligible for the $20,000 scholarship. We took a drive out there, stayed overnight to be on time for her interview (which went very well - they were very enthusiastic)...and then she didn't get in. Worse, the letter was mean.
> 
> ...


Nick, this is exactly why I believe that (in the UK) we have way too many Universities, offering stupid courses that not only don't stretch anyone academically, but they also give the student a worthless piece of paper that purports to be a degree. Not only this, but you then have a student who is incredibly in debt, has a meaningless qualification, and hasn't expanded their thinking process at all. This, IMO, is a total waste of taxpayers, and the students money.

I know that College fees in the US are extremely high, but I would actually prefer in the UK that we went back to the days of free Higher Education, but just ensured that it was of a decent standard.

D


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2012)

My only argument is over whether that's the choice (meaning I don't think it is). There may be too many colleges that aren't good, but then the answer is to improve those colleges and especially change their educational philosophy so they do expand students' thinking processes (the public high school program my daughter went to absolutely did do that). And while it's hard to imagine very many colleges being a total waste of money, of course there's always going to be good and bad in everything.

I think free higher education of a decent standard is a great idea. The University of California (which consists of several excellent universities) was never free, but it's subsidized publicly and it used to be inexpensive. Now it's just about as expensive as the real price you pay for private college, and with the disgusting budget cuts it can take five years instead of four to get all the courses you need to graduate.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2012)

Larry, the music business isn't gone, but it's a shadow of its former self.

That's a whole nutha discussion.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 1, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 01 said:


> Larry, the music business isn't gone, but it's a shadow of its former self.
> 
> That's a whole nutha discussion.



You're right-but it isn't just us.


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## midphase (Jun 1, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Thu May 31 said:


> I'm 57-I think it's important to acknowledge that we had it easier, coming up.
> 
> I worked hard to achieve what I have, but the opportunities to make a small living as a musician were MUCH more numerous then. I'm just sayin'.



I'm not 57, but I remember a time when many composers enjoyed a quality middle-income lifestyle and were able to support their families doing jingles and local and regional TV ads. When clubs booked bands and paid them as opposed to either not paying them, or even worse expecting them to "pre-buy" a number of tickets that they then have to turn around and sell just to break even. On the first movie I scored (super low budget indie) over 15 years ago I got paid considerably more than what my colleagues are now getting paid for cable movie work. I remember when I could afford to bring in session musicians (even drummers...gasp!) for most projects, and pay them a decent wage. And I remember when I used to pull in $500/track or more for library cues, plus 50% license and 100% writer's.

All of that is gone gone gone from what myself and many of my colleagues are experiencing, particularly in the past few years. When $5,000 is considered to be "decent money" to score a Lifetime movie of the week, I think we have an issue.

If you're a freelancing musician/composer I think a bit more socialism can go a long way, particularly when it comes to reducing education costs, health care, and even some housing assistance.

Anyhoo...sorry to hijack the thread...back to whatever you guys are going on about.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2012)

The BBC has three full-time orchestras.

Too bad that's socialism big government can't create jobs I know how to spend my money better than government intrusion in my private life tax and spend, because otherwise I'd really like that.


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## George Caplan (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm 62 and I think most people are morons. :lol:


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## Daryl (Jun 2, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 01 said:


> The BBC has three full-time orchestras.


I think that there are 5.

BBC Symphony
BBC Concert
BBC Philharmonic
BBC Welsh
BBC Scottish

D


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## NYC Composer (Jun 2, 2012)

George Caplan @ Fri Jun 01 said:


> I'm 62 and I think most people are morons. :lol:



I'm thinking it's probably reciprocated. Not from me, I don't think of people in those terms. That's why I need a Batzdorf to think it for me.


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## paulcole (Jun 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 01 said:
> 
> 
> > The BBC has three full-time orchestras.
> ...



When the current MD goes I think in September they can kiss goodbye to some of those.


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## Daryl (Jun 2, 2012)

paulcole @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jun 01 said:
> ...


I'm not so sure. The ones at risk, IMO. are the Concert Orchestra and the Scottish. Politically the Scottish ought to be safe, particularly with the devolution thing on the table. The Concert Orchestra has been at risk for well over 20 years (they were talking about closing it down when I was in it), but I think that it serves quite a useful purpose, and with the deal for TV work at no extra cost, I think that it is reasonably safe.

D


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## paulcole (Jun 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> paulcole @ Sat Jun 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sat Jun 02 said:
> ...



I cannot see any way that a new MD put in by the conservatives is going to want to try and justify the current licence fee to the paying public when they are getting buried by Sky in terms of program making and program delivery. Even ITV are getting their act back together, albeit very slowly, after their golden years of the 1980s.
The BBC is an outright socialistic organisation that spends licence payers money mainly on their propaganda spewing news channels backed up by the Guardian. And to try and get some kind of balance, the Daily Mail among others, having been trying to bring them down for years. The BBC have supported Labour votes during the hustings for years, only a lot more openly in recent years. It needs to be either completely overhauled back to an impartial, unbiased corporation or it needs to be taken off the air altogether. Their program making is very iffy and they have lost a huge amount of sporting events. They will need a lot of luck to survive the coming years of low spending, especially when you consider they are a public sector body basically.


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## chimuelo (Jun 2, 2012)

The trouble with Scotland, is that it's full of Scots..................

Edvard THe Longshanks


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 2, 2012)

I remember learning about an old English dictionary in which the definition of oats was something like "a grain used in England for feeding horses and in Scotland for feeding people."

***
paulcole, please remove yourself from my internet until you can stop being conservative, and return to reality. Thank you.


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## dpasdernick (Jun 2, 2012)

midphase @ Fri Jun 01 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu May 31 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm 57-I think it's important to acknowledge that we had it easier, coming up.
> ...



Kays,

Are you saying that becuase most musician's have chosen a vocation that is no longer paying well you feel that more social programs would allow them to continue living a lifestyle that they feel is fair? Isn't this an incredible slippery slope? Where does the money for the programs come from? Apparently not from the poor musician. What if the entire country decided to become artists? There's very little money in art, music, photography, etc these days. How do you supplement all of the artists? By taxing the doctors and lawyers more? Who wants to go to 10 years of medical school to become a surgeon only to have a large chunk of their money given to a musician who doesn't have the education investemnt, student loans,etc?

Another thought...

isn't Greece having trouble becasue people have been told they can retire at 55? So they get out of college at 25 work for 30 years and then sit back and collect a gov. pension for the next 40? How does that math work/ There's not enough working Greeks to pay for the retired people. I assume that deal was cut when people only lived to be 65 or 70. That's not true now.

Change is coming to all of us. Politics aside there is a level at which 7 billion people can coexist on this planet. I would bet that, if every one was to be eqaul,it would take all of our standards of living down quite a few degrees. I want to help the helpless, I want to contribute to schools and roadways and the poilce and fire men. But not the "starving musician". (I already have one of those...) ;0

Respectfully,

Darren


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 2, 2012)

Greece is having trouble partly because of that, but it's the only country like that. The rest of Europe is not in trouble because their governments spent too much on social services. There was a financial crash. The lesson is NOT that the world has to become a right-wing conservative utopia with a few gated communities and the rest ghettos.

And I'm in favor of what the BBC does, as well as the National Endowment for the Arts.

Meanwhile the idea that everyone on the planet should be equal - within a much narrower range than today, anyway - is great. But it may take hundreds of years for us to evolve to that state. Right now there's always another country with cheap labor to move to, so we have inequality. But eventually it'll probably even out.

The way it is now, with billions of people starving and a lot of the world stuck in the middle ages, seems unlikely to be sustainable.


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## chimuelo (Jun 2, 2012)

Me and my Marxist friends were having a Red Shirt rally the other night are we're almost out of the door to go after the evil Casinos but remembered we dont have state taxes, and they pay for the teachers so they dont get laid off, and every Union has a cost of living raise, and pay above scale according to performance.
Then we remembered all of the excessive freedoms like drinking whatever size Soda you want, carry a gun w/ a Permit ( nobody does, but the law keeps crime down as people are scared of someone shooting them during a robbery), buy a woman/man, cheap gas and food and the gas state tax here is around 36 cents, 6 times the profit that the evil Oil Compnaies makes, but I feel sorry for my SoCal bros as they pay 66 cents a gallon to the freaks in SacraLickto. Got to save those Goldfish, and Snactuary Citys are great as the elites need Nannys for their chidren,
Well we ending being capitaists and went gambling instead and watched dancers on tables and several bands. What an evil Marixst run state.

We're going to try Arizona next week and free our imprisoned Latino brothers who work for shit pay, but make a fortune off of Coke and Weed....


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## George Caplan (Jun 3, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sat Jun 02 said:


> George Caplan @ Fri Jun 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm 62 and I think most people are morons. :lol:
> ...



you 2 guys should form a combo and call yourself the pinko twins.


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## Niah (Jun 3, 2012)

The funny thing is that currently the USA is becoming more "Socialist" by for instance trying to push forward "socialized medicine" and Europe becoming less "Socialist" by increasing privatizations.


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## gsilbers (Jun 3, 2012)

Daryl @ Wed May 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed May 30 said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of kids, even right out of college, would like to be entitled to find a job. It seems reasonable enough to me- I mean, when i was a kid, it was easy to get a job. Now it's ridiculously hard. I think there are a lot of un-lazy people out of work-actually, I know there are.
> ...



i think in the US is the same. but from another point of view. 

kids are getting huge financial aid for programs they will never be able to pay it off once u get work in that field. 

thats the next fininancial bubble imo. there should be a way to reduce by a lot the money given to programs that are most likley not going to find a job and give money to engineering programs and other programs that society needs. 


there are plenty of jobs in the US, but most companies will hire foreigners cause they study those boring things or dont care about "prestige" while the American kids are trying to make it big with a "dream" idea or american dream of work less get paid more and have a nice house with white picket fince in a overpupolated city of millions. thus, they party at colleges and learn nothing trying to figure out what they want to do. while the indian kid has been studying IT and programming since he was 16 yrs old. so its just common sense stuff but corporations that pay "lobbyst" want it this way. make cheap stuff abroad, hire cheap labor from abroad and sell for a big price their product and services while using govmnt money for subsidies.


and as for socialism ... 

here in the US its just a joke and there is no socialism. period. argument against that is just pure fox propaganda. 



an old US world war 2 vet once told me:

"socialism in theory is great. but to have a socialist government it means it needs a lot of power, which means it will create dictators. " 

as you can see from were i am from (my avatar flag) you can see that this quote couldn't be more true.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2012)

Haha! I love it when people make themselves look silly within their own argument. I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread, but this was too juicy!

Gsilbers makes it a definitive statement talking about there's no socialism in the US. Up above that statement you pontificate on student loans. I had to take a double take. You obviously don't know that the main provider of student loans in the US is Sallie Mae which was taken over by the US government 4 years ago.

99% of the student loans given out, including mine are loans from the government. It's the biggest trap. There's no getting out of it. Not even bankruptcy gets you out of them.

There's the power. Not a dictatorship, but who needs a dictator when you have government agencies and laws to back you into a corner?

And with all due respect to your vet, no you don't need a dictator to have socialism. It creeps in in insidious ways and before you know it, well just look at France.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

Remind me-what's the poverty rate in France? I disremember.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 3, 2012)

And I don't think Gsilbers makes himself look silly within his own argument at all.

But I do disagree with a couple of his premises. The first is about who's getting the gigs. And I especially disagree with the idea that college is supposed to be like a trade school. If that's the kind of program you want, then fine - I went to one for music myself (Berklee, although some of the academic classes I took have had a lasting effect on me too). But it's perfectly legitimate - more than legitimate, good - for education to be about learning for its own sake. Our intellect is a big part of what makes us who we are, and intellectual development is a process and an end in itself.

If you have a narrow perspective as a person, there's a very good chance that your music is going to be boring too (in other words, just knowing about art is likely to make you a fool). Likewise, if you're a businessman who only thinks about business or a scientist or engineer who only knows science or engineering, you're a dangerous fool.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Remind me-what's the poverty rate in France? I disremember.



The last time I was in France, it was kind of strange society. You have a few really, really rich people, then you have the vast majority of people either doing very low paying jobs or living on some sort of government dole. So a direct poverty rate comparison, when so many people have so little money isn't a real indicator. So if a person is making $10,000 a year, and they measure the poverty rate at people making below 8k, then it doesn't matter that they have a low poverty rate. Their middle class in this country would be considered impoverished.

The good thing, the buck goes a long way. Had some of my best meals in France for what amounted to a couple of bucks. Best wines at the price too.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Remind me-what's the poverty rate in France? I disremember.
> ...



I measure poverty by human misery, which to me includes hungry kids. 
Most other definitions of poverty, i.e. "having so little money" seem extremely cavalier.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2012)

That's not how poverty is measured. If you have your own definition then, ok. But, that's not how's its measured.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

Okay, I accept that. Let me change the premise-statistically, how many children in France are going to bed hungry these days vs. how many in the U.S.? I disremember.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

From Wiki- (I know, I know)....

"When measured, poverty may be absolute or relative poverty. Absolute poverty refers to a set standard which is consistent over time and between countries. An example of an absolute measurement would be the percentage of the population eating less food than is required to sustain the human body (approximately 2000–2500 calories per day).

Relative poverty, in contrast, views poverty as socially defined and dependent on social context. One relative measurement would be to compare the total wealth of the poorest one-third of the population with the total wealth of richest 1% of the population. In this case, the number of people counted as poor could increase while their income rises. There are several different income inequality metrics; one example is the Gini coefficient."

Differing definitions. I guess it depends on what sort of poverty we're talking about.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Okay, I accept that. Let me change the premise-statistically, how many children in France are going to bed hungry these days vs. how many in the U.S.? I disremember.



With 48,000,000 people on food stamps, not too many. Less they using their EBT card to buy cigs and some Colt 45.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some people have never even stepped foot in ghetto before. I lived in a ghetto once. Not too bad. :lol:


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

I live on the edge of Harlem. Sorry to not fit into your definition of 'some people'


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> I live on the edge of Harlem. Sorry to not fit into your definition of 'some people'



Then you should know, going hungry isn't the biggest problem facing communities like that. Drugs, alcohol and obesity are.


How is Harlem these days? I miss it. I miss NY in general.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

Harlem is very upscale in pockets, East Harlem is still a pit, though there are gentrified areas. Real estate developers push uptown relentlessly.
New York, in general, is crazy busy with tourism and some sort of web development/social network programming renaissance.


I'm surprised you make no connection between drug and alcohol use and children not getting fed. My wife worked with the public school system for a time. There are very few snow days declared in the city, and she found out why and told me-on snow days, a large amount of kids don't get fed. It's not just anecdotal, and it's pretty sad in a country that wastes so much money on so many things, but at least some of the public systems feed people.

Cyclical poverty leads to drug use and sales, teen mothers and bad parenting, all of which leads to cyclical crime. We'll never totally get rid of poverty or crime (anywhere) but at present it appears we're doing a piss poor job of controlling them and helping people out of them.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes I do. I know that hunger is a problem. But so is abuse of a system. I'm mostly playing devils advocate. But, I'm also trying to figure out if these "systems" we have in place to take care of people do more harm or good.

There was a time before these social programs when black communities where doing rather Ok. The these programs hit and at about the same time, early '60ies, black communities in places like Harlem became unlivable. In my mind, there's always been a connection.

best,

Jose


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## chimuelo (Jun 3, 2012)

Taking away a persons dignity isn't a good way to help them.

You really need to read the Welfare rules that come in the mail once you are accepted.
They are like unemployment, poorly written, and punsihment comes from trying to climb from the trap.
FWIW this has nothing to do with ghettos or race, it's now in every class, well except the administrators.

Funny how to sign on to Health Care a North Dakota Senator, who is heavily vested into a single Bank is where these loans are now collected.
I love wealthy politicians. 

Nice that tuition has risen 1000% since the '80s, endowments are huge, yet we subsidize them still.

Remember Dick(head) Armey...? Economics proffesor and water carrier for the Koch Brothers. He actually took a Billion from the Universitys' endowment and bought Gold and has the largest endowment in Texas, probably the whole USA.

Don't particularly care for the man but why can't Obama find a decent Economist who knows how to make money.
This guy did wonders with a billion. I'd rather have an insider like that behind me than a stimulus expert. The purchase was made when Gold was 600 an ounce.

He has done more for the University than the Feds could have ever done, and it's tuitions are not nearly as high as most University.

A little OT but the North Texas Music Program is incredible.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> Yes I do. I know that hunger is a problem. But so is abuse of a system. I'm mostly playing devils advocate. But, I'm also trying to figure out if these "systems" we have in place to take care of people do more harm or good.
> 
> There was a time before these social programs when black communities where doing rather Ok. The these programs hit and at about the same time, early '60ies, black communities in places like Harlem became unlivable. In my mind, there's always been a connection.
> 
> ...



I agree that there is social engineering that has gone awry-it's a good point. Have you read the Moynihan studies? f not, I'll dig up a link..cheers.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 3, 2012)

> Don't particularly care for the man but why can't Obama find a decent Economist who knows how to make money



First of all, that's not what the government's role is, because that's not making money if you're a government.

Second, Obama had some excellent economists. Christine Romer, the former head of his economic council, knew exactly how to get out of this mess and recommended a much larger stimulus. She was an adherent of what she calls evidence-based economics. But she wasn't listened to, because they didn't think the politics would be possible.

So instead he played into the hands of morons who now say stimulus doesn't work. 

People are SO DUMB!


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> > Don't particularly care for the man but why can't Obama find a decent Economist who knows how to make money
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, THERE'S my george caplan first responder!


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## Diffusor (Jun 3, 2012)

Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:


> I think that what confuses some people is that in the UK we have a very different idea about what is fair and what is not. To some people this may seem like the thin end of the wedge towards communism (which in my book is only a bad thing because humans are involved, so it can never work!).
> 
> Actually it doesn't really have much to do with communism. The indirect taxation may appear high, but when you consider that medical care is free and going to University doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I doubt that the cost is much different than it is for a middle class family in the US. I suppose that the difference is that US citizens have a choice about whether to be selfish and greedy, or not. We appear to have less of a choice in that regard. :lol:
> 
> ...



What you are not seeing is those people who make over 150k are the ones who have businesses, start businesses and make jobs. You can see it in your personal life too. When you have extra expendable money do you not spend it on gear and sample libraries, which in turn make money for the companies you buy from, allows them to grow and hire more people etc.? Now if the government took more of that expendable income of yours you'd buy less. You think the government would know better what to do with that money?


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## NYC Composer (Jun 3, 2012)

Diffusor @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that what confuses some people is that in the UK we have a very different idea about what is fair and what is not. To some people this may seem like the thin end of the wedge towards communism (which in my book is only a bad thing because humans are involved, so it can never work!).
> ...



Hmmm-feeding the poor, providing for the national defense, buying, umm..sample libraries..hmm.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> josejherring @ Sun Jun 03 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I do. I know that hunger is a problem. But so is abuse of a system. I'm mostly playing devils advocate. But, I'm also trying to figure out if these "systems" we have in place to take care of people do more harm or good.
> ...



It was something that Moynihan said that first lead me to the idea that welfare programs were designed to decimate communities.

I don't know what particular studies you are referring to, but I'd love to read them.

Moynihan said that if black people where allowed to continue to have babies at the rate they were having babies, then America would be unrecognizable in 100 years. I think he said that in the 1960's or so. Then he started designing social welfare programs and was a chief liberal in Mass. pushing that shit. The results of course decimated black inner city families. Thus population control. Call me Mr. Conspiracy, but the statement and the timing of it all coming from one source was just too suspicious.

That's when I started doubting these programs and there intention. I know for a fact that bad situations are created. They just don't crop up out of chance. 

What's cool is that since those programs have been gutted, decimated, and rearrange over the years, crime in black communities has gone down significantly. I was in Compton once for a screening of a film I did with a black film maker. He did a midnight screening at a movie theater. It was like 2am when it let out. I thought the place would be a nightmare. Looked more like Santa Monica. It was kind of cool.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 4, 2012)

josejherring @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> What's cool is that since those programs have been gutted, decimated, and rearrange over the years, crime in black communities has gone down significantly. I was in Compton once for a screening of a film I did with a black film maker. He did a midnight screening at a movie theater. It was like 2am when it let out. I thought the place would be a nightmare. Looked more like Santa Monica. It was kind of cool.



So you walked home? I mean, it's not exactly like you lived there and couldn't get out or get your kids out-you were a TOURIST. Jeez, man.


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## Daryl (Jun 4, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> Diffusor @ Mon Jun 04 said:
> 
> 
> > Daryl @ Sun May 27 said:
> ...


I was just about to say the same thing! In any case I earn much less than that and I already buy all the gear and sample libraries that I want to. :wink: 

Let's put it in proportion. All that happens is that for every £1 you earn over £150K, you have to pay an extra £0.10. If that breaks a business, then either it is very badly run, or the person concerned is just being greedy. And here we are full circle. People are selfish and greedy.

Actually we just had a strange situation in the UK, where it was proposed that there should be a cap on the amount of money people could give to charity and get tax relief. There was a huge howl from certain charities and the idea was shelved. In actual fact it was actually quite a good idea, because by giving to charity, the people concerned were not paying taxes like the rest of us. Well charities need the money. Of course they do, but just look at what the charities were. If these people we donating (and I'm being generalist here) to help the homeless or feed the poor, I would have some sympathy, but they weren't. All the so-called charities were in the Arts sector. Therefore, for example, you could give millions to charity to build a new wing (with your name on it...!) for the national Gallery, and not pay any tax on that money. To me this is an abuse of the system.

The counter argument was that if there was no tax relief, these people would just not donate the money, thus proving to me that the donation was a pretty selfish act in the first place. They are more interested in grand monuments to themselves than helping the economy of the country they choose to live in.

D


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## chimuelo (Jun 4, 2012)

Yes Nick they were all expert economists, I realize that.
Glad they are back teaching instead of being fall guys for Obama.

What Armey did with 1 billion was private and has nothing to do with propping up public employee Union pensions and jobs,
2 Trillion should have been used with 500 billion a year, every year, and targeted stimulus instead of a political slush fund would have had unemployment much lower as those funds are gone, and unemployment, which really is a decent form of stimulus, was so poorly written that it actually failed liked their other economic experiments.

So I agree with the larger stimulus, just better to have people with experience as opposed to a classroom of geniuses, who all teach for living, or make a living off of the taxpayer. They don't seem to understand the real value of a dollar.

And looking back at Armey's investment. Not only were the profits immense for the institution, he seemed to have funded the movement that removed the entire DNC held Congress. This is all from 1 billion dollars, so it shows that you just don't need to just spend money to stimulate, but invest money also in a targetted way while spending.
I don't see that type of " stimulating " as dumb.

I see Solyndra and other failed Green experiments as dumb. Even Hillary has once again stepped off the farm while in Denmark and remarked what a bad investment Green Energy was and the entire room full of listeners laughed.

I sure don't want to see any more stimulus given to these people. I prefer a seperate entity with a realistic economic plan where Green Energy should stand on it's own, or be privately funded.
As it stands it will die, but guess who gets paid first.........? Nancy P's Brother in law, Kaiser and other Obama bundlers.
So were they really more concerned about their freinds losing money, or more baloney about the millions of jobs Green investments would make....?.... =o 

I think Obama has learned a valuable lesson, and if he gets a second chance, he will get another stimuls from the money taken by the made to repeal Health Care funds, and will listen to Trumpka and others who try to raise the Middle Class up, instead of bundlers, and larger salaries for Federal workers.

We both want the same thing, but no more experiments and wealthy Liberals handling the cash is where we differ.
Politicians shouldn't have access to these funds anymore, we saw them all get greased for a yes on Health Care, and you know where that money came from, then they were removed. A total waste of taxpayer backed funds.

Right now the Treasury is doing really well, and breaking up and selling off parts of AIG is no different than what private Equity Firms do, so who's fooling who here...?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... bfr8n3lDdA

That's the Private Equity Firm known as the Treasury. THis means many AIG employees lost thier gigs, similar to what Bain Capital does.
Those evil " Vultures."


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## José Herring (Jun 4, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Sun Jun 03 said:


> josejherring @ Mon Jun 04 said:
> 
> 
> > What's cool is that since those programs have been gutted, decimated, and rearrange over the years, crime in black communities has gone down significantly. I was in Compton once for a screening of a film I did with a black film maker. He did a midnight screening at a movie theater. It was like 2am when it let out. I thought the place would be a nightmare. Looked more like Santa Monica. It was kind of cool.
> ...



Why would you take offense to that? Curious. It was just pointing out that these communities are getting a lot better than then use to be.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 4, 2012)

I didn't take offense- I guess I showed you exasperation. In context, your statement seemed blithe and sort of obtuse, and I know you're a smart fellow, hence , exasperation.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 4, 2012)

> Now if the government took more of that expendable income of yours you'd buy less. You think the government would know better what to do with that money?



The reason you're wrong about trickle-down economics, of course, is that above a certain threshold people don't spend any more. People who make 1000 times the norm don't buy 1000 times as many sample libraries, nor do they have 1000 cars, pairs of jeans, etc. Instead they invest their money wherever in the world it gets the highest return, and that doesn't translate to a larger economy, it translates to bubbles (because big money attracts big money) and increasing inequality, which is unsustainable. That's especially true right now - we have an excess of savings and a shortage of spending.

The other part about government knowing how to spend your money is even sillier. Of course you don't know better. You're not going to build public infrastructure on your own.

No personal offense, but this is why I hit the ceiling whenever I see these stupid conservative ideas posted again and again. They repeat the same arguments over and over and over, no matter how thoroughly they get spiked into the ground every time (because they're just plain stupid). The result is the big lies that get repeated - as you can see here. It's why I don't pretend there are two equal sides to our divide. Our country should remain divided as long as half its population is objectively wrong.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 4, 2012)

Diffuser, here's a transcript of a speech by Nick Hanauer that spells it out.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ed/257323/


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## chimuelo (Jun 4, 2012)

Excellent article.
That's the kind of honesty I would like to see in our Capital. Someone who has actually worked in the private sector, and understands Middle Class spending and purchasing power is what makes us tick.
American Middle Class and Europeans should be proud. We brought 500,000,000 Chinese people out of poverty.

I wish this guy would run for office. He's a progressive I can support, no problem.
I am tired of hearing about infrastructure from DC though.
They had their 1.2 Trillion and saved the wealthy, and added bandaids to the public employee pensions. I have no use for these wealthy elites, they are clueless, and if they were in the know, it shows they are representing themselves, not the Middle Class.


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## George Caplan (Jun 5, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> The reason you're wrong about trickle-down economics, of course, is that above a certain threshold people don't spend any more.



that is completely correct and proven by studies made. the idea of so called trickle down is a bit like marxism. looks good on paper until you actually try and either implement it or expect it to happen. it doesnt happen in reality. and even more interesting.........




Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jun 04 said:


> People who make 1000 times the norm don't buy 1000 times as many sample libraries, nor do they have 1000 cars, pairs of jeans, etc. Instead they invest their money wherever in the world it gets the highest return, and that doesn't translate to a larger economy, it translates to bubbles (because big money attracts big money) and increasing inequality, which is unsustainable. That's especially true right now - we have an excess of savings and a shortage of spending.



that is also correct and in fact goes the other way a lot of the time. without getting into interminable semantics and long anecdotes what actually happens is this.

from an investment bank perspective on a basic level. 

people that spend their lives making and accumulating money usually have all they need early on. they generally i repeat generally, dont spend much as time progresses and in fact whether you have a lot of excess cash or not, older people spend less generally anyway. its the people that spend time making it that have the tendency to accumulate more and believe me when i tell you that ive heard it all from clients of why thats the case over many years. could be children and grandchildren or just plain philanthropic behavior. 

the only time i ever saw people suddenly go out and spend a sack full of cash was either when they came in and they were young and lets say impetuous and had been left it in will or on 3 separate occasions lawyers sent us 3 lottery winners of large sums. thats the only time i saw any evidence of trickle down effect. at different times of course. not all at once.

i had a client that was worth around $15m in pounds sterling and he bought his clothes from shops that were slightly higher grade than charity shops. and thats common believe me or not. you would be surprised how people react to their lives regarding accumulation lets call it as opposed to sudden and dramatic wealth.

and keeping the subject of socialism in mind. you would be amazed how suddenly previously left of marxism people become quite right wing and anti welfare when they come into sudden wealth. :lol:


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## George Caplan (Jun 10, 2012)

so spain gets a bailout. but according to them its not a bailout. ok i get it.

so anyone still want to debate living in denial? 

now i see on cnn that the british government is blaming the euro people for fucking the whole thing up over a period of 2000 years. alright make it 4 years. that attack by them on the eurozone has to be a pre-emtive strike because if youre a brit then my guess is some real bad news coming your way. blame first and announce later.


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## Niah (Jun 10, 2012)

What does it matter?

Look at how huge is Spain's unemployment rate specially among young people.

You need to invest in human capital.

There's free education yes but it's useless because the educational system in europe as well as USA prepares young people for the industrial age. The educational system has remained static and is not serving us well.


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## José Herring (Jun 10, 2012)

George Caplan @ Sun Jun 10 said:


> so spain gets a bailout. but according to them its not a bailout. ok i get it.
> 
> so anyone still want to debate living in denial?
> 
> now i see on cnn that the british government is blaming the euro people for [email protected]#king the whole thing up over a period of 2000 years. alright make it 4 years. that attack by them on the eurozone has to be a pre-emtive strike because if youre a brit then my guess is some real bad news coming your way. blame first and announce later.



The inevitable collapse of socialist economic policies.

The only thing that really scares me is what will rise up out of the ashes of Europe in a few years. >8o 

They've carefully educated out of people even the idea of self reliance. Socialism is dead and dying out. I'm not a doom and gloom kind of person, but there's no upside here.


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## Niah (Jun 10, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun Jun 10 said:


> George Caplan @ Sun Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > so spain gets a bailout. but according to them its not a bailout. ok i get it.
> ...



What on earth are you talking about?

It's not the collapse of Socialism it's the educational system it's old archaic and doesn't prepare anyone for the future. The US has a much better system it terms that it allows students to choose their curriculum either in High School and college, it's still miles away for being anything useful but it prepares kids for the job market much better than in europe.

Now I went to school in Europe with a bunch of people whose parents ran private businesses, and because they lied about how much they earn a year to the IRS they didn't had to pay for books, and they had all kinds of benefits like scholarships and not only they didn't have to pay any taxes they even collected some.. This is what is called parallel economy, that is not regulated, doesn't contribute nothing to the state and thus the people that are really supportiving these folks and the system, education, free wealth care, etc, are the middle class most of them who work for the state, teachers, social workers, etc...Now the middle class just can't support the system or the freeloaders from the private sector anymore...private businesses, schools, universities, hospital...This idea that that the state controls the private sector in Europe, well...I don't see that at all...

The death of Socialism? There was never any socialism to begin with. Besides technically it's Social-democracy.

The issue that I have with people just saying that Social-democracy doesn't work because it's not working in Portugal, Spain, Ireland, etc...it's that like Nick has stated in Nordic countries it seems to be working fine. There less corruption and a lot more organization and civic responsability.

And the thing about southern European countries IMHO is that there has always been a great deal of corruption since the days of fascist dictatorships like Portugal and Spain.

It's really not about the system but the people in the system, and I mean the people and the government. For me it's much more a cultural problem and now everyone is suffering the consequences.

We are living in a world of global economy and if you think that what is happening to Spain doesn't affect the US economy...

As long as people still think on this "self-made man" idea and that anyone can rise up out of nothing, then yea no one will care for one another or for any socialist values. And don't say that it doesn't work when you have countries that prove that it does, but it other for it to work you need a strong economy and you need to invest in human capital which is something that the USA actually has done much better than these southern European countries. Plus the US has all the conditions to become and much more socially conscience country.


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## George Caplan (Jun 10, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun Jun 10 said:


> George Caplan @ Sun Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > so spain gets a bailout. but according to them its not a bailout. ok i get it.
> ...




but i told you this before. this dr doom talking here. :lol: 

there is no question like i said before that mainly from a political point of view one person is culpable. she has faffed around thinking this will go away and she will look like the first federal president of europe and everyone will happy in the garden. no.


i repeat. there is no coming back from a 100 billion bailout whatever anyone ever tells you. its unprecedented and the thing is it will be 200 billion and probably more. the bailout will work on a temporary level. the markets will like it for 5 minutes but you have to remember that the president has taken a public stance on this live on television because bernanke has told him to. that is a worry for rabid capitalists like myself. even retired ones.

:lol:


not on cnn on bloomberg. going senile.


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## José Herring (Jun 10, 2012)

Niah,

I haven't been to Europe in 20 years so I don't know how things have changed.

What I meant was, that when I was there, there was this overriding attitude amongst most Europeans. There was not even a consideration that the government wasn't going to take care of them. There was no idea that these young people would have to some day get out of the university and work.

So I got the impression that Europeans in general were relying on their country to take care of them without a sense that they would have to contribute back. Well, I'm afraid Europe is going to find out what it means to go at it on your own with little help from the government to assist in survival.

So, I'm just a little concerned with what's going to happen over there. Economically Europe is in a prelude to war. I can see the warning signals. Greece pulling out of the Euro, radical governments being voted in or getting more power. One country blaming the other. ect....

And, yes there is socialism in Europe. I don't see why its so hard for people to see that. All of Europe right now is practicing a socialist economy. I think people are confusing socialism with communism. So they don't see it. It's not quite communist yet. But, its getting pretty close. 

But I'm afraid that wars are on the horizon again in Europe. It's hard for me to escape that conclusion. And it's a shame. Because the last wars in central and eastern Europe only ended 15 years ago. But, people get pissed and crazy when there's no work and no money. Then they start blaming others, then they want to eradicate those 'others' from the planet.

I'm not being hysterical either. It seems to me with what's happening in Greece, France, Britain, that some sort of conflict (once the economic games and finger pointing stop) is on the horizon.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 10, 2012)

Jose, it's the inevitable collapse of the *opposite* of socialist economic polices that you're seeing!

You may be right about the symptoms, but the most heavily socialized economies are doing fine. It has nothing to do with that.

George, the simple solution is just to write people checks to do useful things. Same as in this country. They're finally realizing that in France.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 10, 2012)

George Caplan @ Sun Jun 10 said:


> josejherring @ Sun Jun 10 said:
> 
> 
> > George Caplan @ Sun Jun 10 said:
> ...



Yeah, like that 180 billion dollar bailout of AIG, no coming back from...wait. That seems to be working out somewhat. Well, there was GM...wait. Forget it-that might yet work out. Well, what about that 800 billion bank bailout?? Can't come back from THAT-oh wait, they're paying off. Hmm.

I'm sure any rabid capitalist worth his salt cheered the allowance of Lehman's failure and would have preferred to have ALL the illiquid banks and investment banks fail so that rapid capitalism could right the ship. Of course, that would have made THEIR money unclaimable, other than the Swiss bank accounts of course, and even there, one wonders about the worth of paper currency or commodities like gold at that point.
Soybeans and chickens would probably have been the new currency....oh, and bullets.

Capitalism's grand when it works for the wealthy. When it doesn't, they're fine with Other People's Money bailing them out. It pays to keep one's thinking highly flexible.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 10, 2012)

In all fairness, Larry, I think the US had more of a chance of paying back TARP than Spain does, due to the sheer size of our economy.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 10, 2012)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jun 11 said:


> In all fairness, Larry, I think the US had more of a chance of paying back TARP than Spain does, due to the sheer size of our economy.



While that's totally true, we're not really talking about Spain here, are we-we're talking about the fate of the European Union, which is a bit more substantial. We're also talking about US, because every piece of the economic jumble now depends on the other. We're talking about the Euro, whether it survives or doesn't, and I believe it's vastly in the interest of the powers that be (except those shorting the Euro) that it survives for a while and then dissolves in a soft landing. Imagine another 2008-style panic this soon-talk about rocking the boat!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 11, 2012)

Indubitably.

The banks need bailing out, but so does the Spanish economy. And that's exactly what they're not doing, because they're too caught up in their own religion: the more people suffer, the better the economy will do; if the economy is bad, it must be because people aren't suffering enough.


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## George Caplan (Jun 11, 2012)

thats right. so does the spanish economy. thats what larry doesnt understand. 100 billion for the bank bailout may be the thin end of the wedge. thats the issue. 

incidentally i have no interest in the human angle. stop haranguing me with this larry and remember our president bet. 100k i think it was.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 11, 2012)

george, I never agreed to a bet with you about anything. 

Geez, didn't mean to harangue you with anything human. I thought we were talking about rabid capitalism and doomsday economic scenarios. My apologies.


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## George Caplan (Jun 11, 2012)

larry the numbers in the eurozone are now so enormous and at the same time the euro is so totally overvalued against major world currencies that the human factor has become insignificant. its incidental. the lunatics thar are running this shambles are the ones that have made it that way. i merely give a point of view on the economics. i have no clue as to what effect this has on individuals so cannot comment.

125 k on the president is a big bet larry. are you sure you can afford it?


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## NYC Composer (Jun 11, 2012)

George Caplan @ Mon Jun 11 said:


> larry the numbers in the eurozone are now so enormous and at the same time the euro is so totally overvalued against major world currencies that the human factor has become insignificant. its incidental. the lunatics thar are running this shambles are the ones that have made it that way. i merely give a point of view on the economics. i have no clue as to what effect this has on individuals so cannot comment.
> 
> 125 k on the president is a big bet larry. are you sure you can afford it?



How surprising that you have no opinion about individuals and the effect of monetary collapse on them, george-after all, you give every impression that you already got yours, so really-why would you care?

As for the schoolyard braggadocio regarding online bets-please put your great big Daddy Warbucks testicles back in the drawer where they belong. Thanks ever so.


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## George Caplan (Jun 12, 2012)

thanks larry for keeping us all 

on a moral path. whatever would we do without larry.

how do want to play this larry? cash or check?

:D


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## NYC Composer (Jun 12, 2012)

George Caplan @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> thanks larry for keeping us all
> 
> on a moral path. whatever would we do without larry.
> 
> ...



and george-what we would do without your Dr Doom predictions?
You'll be right soon enough-even a broken clock/twice a day.


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## George Caplan (Jun 12, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> George Caplan @ Tue Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > thanks larry for keeping us all
> ...



it's the ability to predict that makes you rich larry :wink:


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## NYC Composer (Jun 12, 2012)

George Caplan @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > George Caplan @ Tue Jun 12 said:
> ...



Gee george- is that what Raj R had? Ability to predict?  

Sad that none of the investment banks were able to predict a real estate bubble-but that's okay. I was happy to help out with my tax dollars when they were on the brink of collapse.


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## chimuelo (Jun 12, 2012)

They actually knew about it though Larry. Check up on the Deutsch Bank, IndyMac and Ameriquest.
The cat was out of the bag in 2005 when Bush and his Liberal Arch enemies voted yes to send the owner of Ameriquest to become Ambassador to the Netherlands after a quick Bancrupcy, and escape from prosecution ( Diplomatic Immunity). He died at a young age from the overwhelming stress, so they voted together again to allow another non diplomat to take his seat, his son. The Queen was more than happy to help out, even got a ride in her Purple Carriage probably too. No experience necessary.

Bush, Dodd, Frank, Cheney and Daschle all had a few good laughs and a toast after that string of decisions.
What was suppose to happen actually did happen, as Governments in the EU thanks to the Deutsch Bank, Goldman Sachs and other " investment Banks " sold these worthless pieces of paper across the globe in an attempt to contain and spread out the sure to come meltdown.
Greece with their age 50 retirements, and very lavish Governement funded lifestyle was the fall guy.
Contagion is actually just now starting to happen.
But the Federal Reserve will release even more billions to add bandaids to the gaping wound.

If Obama is meant to stay in office, the QE 5 or Grandson of Stimulus will take place pre November, but these lame duck and transitional periods are usually where the Fed and DC Politicians start passing dozens of laws, and money is flying around everywhere in a mass confusion that the public can't even understand the effect of until months later.

I learned of this long after it happened, but the lawsuits started here in Las Vegas.
Record number of 30-40k Refi's. The Banks own as many homes as the citizens here.

Now if someone can predict those type of events, they are so juiced in, they have money dropping from the skies in front of them as they walk, like the Rose Pedals Eddie Murphy walked on in the movie " Coming To America."

We will see who the real rulers decide will get the role of President when Uncle Ben turns loose of some more printed money. If before Novemeber, Obama wins. If Obama loses, Romney gets the big kicker.

The old Potomac 2 step doesn't fool me anymore.
But then I was wrong about Hillary running in 2012. But after the Bin Laden, and the Libya stuff, no fellow Democrat could run against Obama. He actually accomplished something. It was looking real bad there for him until then.
I mean think back to how many times Hillary would state her views and they were totally different than the WH talking points.
She even went as far to say that the largest National Security threat to the USA was the amount of debt we had....... >8o 
Have you ever heard an Administration with so many Cabinet members and officials all with opposing views on domestic and foreign issues...?
Perhaps mass confusion and uncertainty is the goal, if that's the case they have succeeded tremendously....

Larry, you don't seem like a Romney guy. Even with his recent abilities to memorize scripts and wearing Jeans over his 1000 USD Armani Pants, I can't see you falling for his routine........?
I wonder if he will tax himself like the Liberals all say they want to do...
Too bad they didn't push that law while they had the Super Majority...
And why can't they just start coughing up the cash now instead of waiting for a law to be passed.....put your money where your mouth is.

I am quite sure most level headed Americans know the games by now.
These wealthy Liberals aren't going to give a dime to anyone unless it's an IPO or land investment where a Federal Bridge or Airport will be built.
Just check out the wealthy amount of Senators in DC and ask yourself after years of stealing and lying and fighting to get that cash that they want to give it some peasants that probably didn't even vote for them.....

Fat Chance


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## NYC Composer (Jun 12, 2012)

I thought I could have MAYBE been a Romney guy before he started his inevitable dance to the right, when he became John McCain Part Deux. In all honesty though, I start thinking about an even MORE Conservative Supreme Court making more Citizens United and Bush V Gore decisions, and my blood runs cold.

Anecdotally, I was a guest at a very upper-crust blue-blooded yacht club this weekend.
In the midst of dinner, everyone suddenly stood up and motioned for me and my wife to do the same. A geek in a uniform with a sailor's cap then shot off a cannon and lowered first the club flag, then the country's flag. Then everyone sat down. Apparently, it's a club tradition. They were not self-deprecating about it nor were they particularly explanatory-and I realized I'd just gotten a little glimpse of the inside of a Romney presidency. Feh.


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## chimuelo (Jun 12, 2012)

My dream is called Chimueloism..........
The poor are represented by the wealthy Liberals,
The Rich are represented by the Evangelicals and Benny Hinns, but must take care of the Poor, especially since the Bible tells them so.

And the the Middle Class gets costs of living raises, pays no taxes, and has Bernie Sanders chasing down all off shore scams like Bidens Brother, Obamas Bros, and the wealthy Romney cats.....

Again.............Fat Chance.

Last time I was on a Yacht was at Virginia Key. I played with Maynards Guitarist Lindsey Blair ( 1977-ish ) and I met Miss Peru in her Leaopard skin Bikini... >8o 
Lots of money there too. Those are the wealthy cats I like to hang with..
Now days they consider great treatment of musicians by giving them a table in the hallway in the Kitchen.
When I was in these all girl groups and sequencing lights and various parts, we got 5 star after hours treatments, etc.
I'd rather be a nobody and play with dedicated performers, just wish someone would throw us a bone everynow and then. Everyone is so tight nowdays.. :|


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## Peter Alexander (Jun 12, 2012)

Regarding big business income.

For those not in tune, in the U.S. you can have a sole proprietorship, an LLC, a C Corp, an S Corp, and other setups.

With a sole proprietorship, which is the form most Repubs are talking about, you have a regular checking account and run your business out of that. 

For example, let's say you own a small music store and you gross $750,000 as a sole prop. That's not income. That's gross sales, out of which you have to pay rent, utilities, vendors, payroll, payroll taxes, SSI, medical insurance, phone, liability insurance, city taxes, state taxes, Federal taxes, property taxes, workman's comp, sales tax, advertising, accounting fees, and so on.

By the time you pay all that out of the gross, some are lucky to bring home $40,000. This sounds like big bucks until you realize that $40k is about $3300 per month to support a family.


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## George Caplan (Jun 13, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Tue Jun 12 said:


> George Caplan @ Tue Jun 12 said:
> 
> 
> > NYC Composer @ Tue Jun 12 said:
> ...



well thats very generous of you larry and we re all very pleased to hear that.

im just leaving for glastonbury country club. lets get larry into the predicting game.

do i take the ferrari or do i take the porsche? Or the bmw suv? your call larry.


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## NYC Composer (Jun 13, 2012)

Why not take the Porsche and tow the other two, so that the little people can gaze at them admiringly along the way? :roll:


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## José Herring (Jun 13, 2012)

How 'bout we be true socialist and I take the Ferrari and George can have my Mazda 3? Seems fair! 

_From those according to their ability to those according to their need_--Karl Marx.

I feel the need to experience driving around in a Ferrari.


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## Niah (Jun 13, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Wed Jun 13 said:


> By the time you pay all that out of the gross, some are lucky to bring home $40,000. This sounds like big bucks until you realize that $40k is about $3300 per month to support a family.



Most european youngsters with master's degrees, from these countries we are talking about, are either unemployed or working in call centers and making between 600-800 euros a month.

They don't even have enough money to support themselves let alone support a family or to start one.

So yea to me it sounds like big bucks. :mrgreen:


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## George Caplan (Jun 13, 2012)

NYC Composer @ Wed Jun 13 said:


> Why not take the Porsche and tow the other two, so that the little people can gaze at them admiringly along the way? :roll:




and there was i thinking they were gazing admiringly at me. :lol: 

it's a ferrari dino 1972 jose. got a strange gated gear shift that takes a bit of practice. socialists cant drive them for some reason. they like things to be automatic. :mrgreen:


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