# Can you work as a higher-end Media Composer (mainly TV, not movies) using only libraries and no live recording?



## Ray (Oct 10, 2020)

I suspect you wouldn't be able to make it as far as to become a BBC composer using only libraries, is that right? Since they have substantial limitations. I'm only asking though, I know very little about what the industry accepts and what it doesn't.

But if not high-end, is it common to see composers in some kind of middle category of Film/TV Composition, working only with libraries?


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 10, 2020)

Ray said:


> I suspect you wouldn't be able to make it as far as to become a BBC composer using only libraries, is that right? Since they have substantial limitations. I'm only asking though, I know very little about what the industry accepts and what it doesn't.
> 
> But if not high-end, is it common to see composers in some kind of middle category of Film/TV Composition, working only with libraries?


I’ve done a few bits for the BBC with not a live musician in sight, if that helps.


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## Ray (Oct 10, 2020)

Alex Fraser said:


> I’ve done a few bits for the BBC with not a live musician in sight, if that helps.


Wow, I had very little hope. I've been getting feedback on this only from people who hadn't actually worked in the higher-end and they were only speculating. So yes, very helpful.

Thank you!


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## BenG (Oct 10, 2020)

Have scored some stuff for HBO, History, BBC, etc. All samples (sadly)


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## Alex Fraser (Oct 10, 2020)

Ray said:


> Wow, I had very little hope. I've been getting feedback on this only from people who hadn't actually worked in the higher-end and they were only speculating. So yes, very helpful.
> 
> Thank you!


No problem. But not all Beeb work is high end. 😉


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## Ray (Oct 10, 2020)

BenG said:


> Have scored some stuff for HBO, History, BBC, etc. All samples (sadly)



I think live recording to be such an energy draining experience. In theory, because I've never even set foot in an orchestral recording session. I guess it's because I'm an introvert - I just like to do stuff on my own and not have too many people involved. Love a cozy spot from which I can enjoy myself (create) and then even get paid for it!


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## JohnG (Oct 10, 2020)

Over time, if your ambitions are to emulate orchestral / acoustic sounds, you will want to learn to work with players. Even one -- you don't have to go full orchestra straight away.

If you're mostly an electronic-sounds composer (synths and so on) then it's obviously going to be less important.


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## artomatic (Oct 10, 2020)

Scored a few episodes for Showtime a few years ago with just VIs and guitar.


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## gsilbers (Oct 10, 2020)

i think almost all tv shows are sampled based. I mean, there is extremely little time to do full orchestra except for some exceptions family guy/american dad. simpsons (w alf).

Normally its just one musician if its needed to add something. or a small chamber in one small room, which is what remote control used to do.

there is also some other exceptions like one off series with ample time (those hans zimmer documentaries) and maybe some other nature shows.
but those tv shedules are brutal.

And Its not like before that you finish a tv show, air it in a network and that was it. wait a few months for europe and asia to get it.
something that has chnaged in the past 5-7 years is that TV shows are being aired at the same time in every country already dubbed. sometimes EU gets to air it first.
that means dubbers need some sort of working scirpt and file before hand and at least a timed version and then the final once completed. thats about 6 weeks before it airs. which is 6weeks less composers have to score a show.

im not going to name names or companies, but a famous older composer tried to chnage a cue in an episode of a famous show a week before it aired.... (back then it was just a punch in on the master)
not realizing that it was 3 weeks too late. since it was such a famous show and producers, they decided to air it locally (los angeles) with the revised cue but the rest of the world had the old cue.
Reruns would be changed of course but major pain in the ass since its so many countries.

anyways... most shows are all sampled based. not only time but budgets.


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## JonS (Oct 10, 2020)

I've composed entire live-action tv series, animated series, direct-to-video, and trailers using only sample based libraries. It's always nicer to work with live musicians.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 10, 2020)

I suspect you could, but why the hell would you aspire to that? Libraries get your foot in your door, and from there you start pushing for working with real musicians. People are better at playing music than computers, after all. Since I make my living as a sample library developer, that may seem like a strange opinion to have, but I'm also a performer and a former orchestral player for 10 years. We are in a race to the bottom, where money and maximising corporate bottom lines is killing of artists at an alarming rate, so we should all push against that and support real musicians.


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## mscp (Oct 10, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> i think almost all tv shows are sampled based. I mean, there is extremely little time to do full orchestra except for some exceptions family guy/american dad. simpsons (w alf).
> 
> Normally its just one musician if its needed to add something. or a small chamber in one small room, which is what remote control used to do.
> 
> ...



Absolutely! For example, a lot of Korean/Japanese TV drama composers rarely have time or/nor the budget to hire real musicians because of their schedules, and overall logistics.


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## asherpope (Oct 10, 2020)

Surely it would depend on the genre? Some shows really don't call for live players at all if they're sci fi, thriller etc


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## jmauz (Oct 10, 2020)

Ugh why would you ever want to only use samples? There's nothing that can replace the subtle interpretation you get from a human performing something YOU wrote. Furthermore, working with others provides opportunity for collaboration. 

Real instruments just sound better. Period.


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## Matt Damon (Oct 10, 2020)

jmauz said:


> Ugh why would you ever want to only use samples? There's nothing that can replace the subtle interpretation you get from a human performing something YOU wrote. Furthermore, working with others provides opportunity for collaboration.
> 
> Real instruments just sound better. Period.



That's not even the worst part tbh

It's the fact that real instruments can actually play music for real instruments.

The first thread I saw when I joined here was that one about how samples tend to have this problem where "short" notes (which usually just means staccato) sound like an entirely different instrument from the longs. That is such a massive problem and is why I hate working with samples. You have to sacrifice a lot of good melodic and accompaniment ideas because it just sounds like shit with samples, but would be fine with real instruments.

This is something I miss about the "synth keyboard" days. Yeah, it wasn't going to fool anyone into thinking it was a real orchestra or whatever, but you could actually write orchestral music for it, and the whole thing didn't sound like patchwork garbage.



and I'd much rather listen to the above example than just "string pad plus legato horns because that's why my samples can do" music any day.

You can't reach your potential as a composer if you aren't at least _writing_ music that would be intended for live instruments, free of sample limitations. I'll die on this hill.


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## Ray (Oct 11, 2020)

asherpope said:


> Surely it would depend on the genre? Some shows really don't call for live players at all if they're sci fi, thriller etc


That's great to hear! I'm not that comfortable to work with so many people. I really like working alone (weird, I know).


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## Aceituna (Oct 11, 2020)

It´s absolutely possible.
You can do things now, with VI instruments, that you wouldn´t be able to do without them.
I mean, maybe I wouldn´t be able to be composer without VI instruments. I can´t hire a orchestra, studio time,...
And it´s absolutely possible to live in the both sides, taking advantage of each one.
VI instruments let you listen your work on the way, as you are making it, instantly. And get fantastic results and absolutely professional.
On the other hand, when you are doing better, participating in bigger projects with budget, you can hire an orchestra for getting the extra "plus" only attainable with real musicians.
I don´t see opposite worlds.
I want to be able to work with real musicians.
Just my 2 cents.


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## muk (Oct 11, 2020)

As others have said it's very much possible. It depends on the project, and what kind of work you do. If you are hired to score a show or drama, the higher up you get the more likely it is to involve live musicians in some way or other. With library music, it's more likely to be all samples, even with top tier libraries. Depends on the project and budget, but there are many possibilities to create a project that doesn't involve live musicians. These projects can end up in well-known shows/films, but they aren't specifically created for them.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 11, 2020)

jmauz said:


> Ugh why would you ever want to only use samples? There's nothing that can replace the subtle interpretation you get from a human performing something YOU wrote. Furthermore, working with others provides opportunity for collaboration.



I can understand why someone would want to only use samples. Making music with libraries has turned into its own little thing. I bet that the majority of people who buy sample libraries today aren't coming from a perspective of _"I don't have the opportunity to record this music with real players, so these samples are gonna have to do"_, but more _"with these awesome samples I can make music I wouldn't be able to otherwise". _Doesn't have to be good or bad, it's just what it is.

I get that. One might not care about having humans perform their music at all. It's not important to me either. I actually think it's a pain in the ass (talking about orchestra here - individual musicians is different). Especially with unions and what not and all that hassle. Who cares? As if anyone else cared.


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## GtrString (Oct 11, 2020)

I think there is a difference between analog and digital _instruments_ and real and programmed _performances_.

I don't see why analog instruments is always required, although they are fun.
But real performances are definitely required in order for it to sound musical.

A triggered sample with midi from a good performer should be fine. Sometimes the samples even sound "better", or at least more appropriate, than the analog equivalent.

That said, I've had recent placements where 90% of the track was analog instruments, and 100% was real performances.

I think there is a demand for real performances, but not necessarily analog instruments.


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## Ray (Oct 11, 2020)

jmauz said:


> Ugh why would you ever want to only use samples? There's nothing that can replace the subtle interpretation you get from a human performing something YOU wrote. Furthermore, working with others provides opportunity for collaboration.
> 
> Real instruments just sound better. Period.


You are right if we're looking at composers who want to do this, who love all the energy they get from working with people, etc.
However, I'm such an introvert that it's creating me problems with interactions and mantaining energy. I lose a lot of it when working with people (some people actually gain energy while doing such things. enter extroverts) and I'm just hoping I can do this by sitting at home, in my "safe" spot, lol.

I'm trying to picture how energetic of a person you must be in order to coordinate such a big thing like recording live orchestra. Surely, with individual musicians it's a whole other story, and I am definitely considering it.

There are tons of people out there who love a spike of adrenaline that they get from these experiences, so I get what you're saying. But me? No thanks.


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## Ray (Oct 11, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I can understand why someone would want to only use samples. Making music with libraries has turned into its own little thing. I bet that the majority of people who buy sample libraries today aren't coming from a perspective of _"I don't have the opportunity to record this music with real players, so these samples are gonna have to do"_, but more _"with these awesome samples I can make music I wouldn't be able to otherwise". _Doesn't have to be good or bad, it's just what it is.
> 
> I get that. One might not care about having humans perform their music at all. It's not important to me either. I actually think it's a pain in the ass (talking about orchestra here - individual musicians is different). Especially with unions and what not and all that hassle. Who cares? As if anyone else cared.


Very well said!


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## JonS (Oct 11, 2020)

Ray said:


> Very well said!


Sample libraries cannot compete with live musicians. Having one’s music performed by top musicians absolutely blows away any sample library mock-up. 

When a production budget has no room to afford live musicians then sample libraries certainly come in handy. But don’t ever fool yourself into believing that somehow a sample library will sound better than top musicians performing your music, it won’t. Studios spend millions of dollars hiring top musicians for their movies for a reason.


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## Kent (Oct 11, 2020)

Many top composers are introverts—you have to be to gain energy from sitting in front of a computer in a cave 8-14 hours a day for weeks at a time!


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## Ray (Oct 11, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> anyways... most shows are all sampled based. not only time but budgets.


I hope I don't sound like a jerk - and I don't mean to look down on musicians in any way (the sound and effects you can achieve with live musicians is, of course, irreplaceable) but I'm really glad to hear this 

Thank you for all the info, great insight!


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## Ray (Oct 11, 2020)

JonS said:


> Having one’s music performed by top musicians absolutely blows away any sample library mock-up.
> But don’t ever fool yourself into believing that somehow a sample library will sound better than top musicians performing your music, it won’t. Studios spend millions of dollars hiring top musicians for their movies for a reason.


Absolutely, no doubt there!


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## MartinH. (Oct 11, 2020)

JonS said:


> When a production budget has no room to afford live musicians then sample libraries certainly come in handy. But don’t ever fool yourself into believing that somehow a sample library will sound better than top musicians performing your music, it won’t. Studios spend millions of dollars hiring top musicians for their movies for a reason.


Yeah, TOP musicians. Where do you draw the line though? I've heard people post recordings from that 99-dollar orchestra or whatever it's called, and I thought the mockup sounded better. Musicians add a lot for sure, but if they aren't good enough, they'll add things I don't like too. What's the lowest quality of orchestral performance that you still would pick over well programmed samples?




Ray said:


> You are right if we're looking at composers who want to do this, who love all the energy they get from working with people, etc.
> However, I'm such an introvert that it's creating me problems with interactions and mantaining energy. I lose a lot of it when working with people (some people actually gain energy while doing such things. enter extroverts) and I'm just hoping I can do this by sitting at home, in my "safe" spot, lol.
> 
> I'm trying to picture how energetic of a person you must be in order to coordinate such a big thing like recording live orchestra. Surely, with individual musicians it's a whole other story, and I am definitely considering it.
> ...


I totally get it, would be the same for me.


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## JonS (Oct 11, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Yeah, TOP musicians. Where do you draw the line though? I've heard people post recordings from that 99-dollar orchestra or whatever it's called, and I thought the mockup sounded better. Musicians add a lot for sure, but if they aren't good enough, they'll add things I don't like too. What's the lowest quality of orchestral performance that you still would pick over well programmed samples?
> 
> 
> 
> I totally get it, would be the same for me.


Well, I’m certainly not referring to the graveyard symphony orchestra


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## jmauz (Oct 11, 2020)

> (some people actually gain energy while doing such things. enter extroverts) and I'm just hoping I can do this by sitting at home, in my "safe" spot, lol



I'm an introvert as well but after spending a few years sitting in a room alone writing music and wondering why my career was taking forever to get off the ground I knew I had to make some changes. Like getting out and meeting people face to face. Like reaching out to other musicians and collaborating on projects. 

Staying 'safe' will keep you from reaching your full potential. No one ever found success while playing it safe. Get a little uncomfortable. I know it sucks and can be scary but you'll get used to it and you'll grow as a musician and a person.

Ok Tony Robbins rant over. Good luck bud.


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## Ray (Oct 11, 2020)

jmauz said:


> I'm an introvert as well but after spending a few years sitting in a room alone writing music and wondering why my career was taking forever to get off the ground I knew I had to make some changes. Like getting out and meeting people face to face. Like reaching out to other musicians and collaborating on projects.
> 
> Staying 'safe' will keep you from reaching your full potential. No one ever found success while playing it safe. Get a little uncomfortable. I know it sucks and can be scary but you'll get used to it and you'll grow as a musician and a person.
> 
> Ok Tony Robbins rant over. Good luck bud.


Haha, that was actually spot on! Thank you for the input, and good luck to you, too!


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## jononotbono (Oct 11, 2020)

kmaster said:


> weeks at a time!



Only Weeks?


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## thesteelydane (Oct 11, 2020)

jmauz said:


> I'm an introvert as well but after spending a few years sitting in a room alone writing music and wondering why my career was taking forever to get off the ground I knew I had to make some changes. Like getting out and meeting people face to face. Like reaching out to other musicians and collaborating on projects.
> 
> Staying 'safe' will keep you from reaching your full potential. No one ever found success while playing it safe. Get a little uncomfortable. I know it sucks and can be scary but you'll get used to it and you'll grow as a musician and a person.
> 
> Ok Tony Robbins rant over. Good luck bud.


On a completely unrelated note, this is why I took up Muay Thai. As an introverted pacifist who’s never been in a fight, I couldn’t find anything further from my comfort zone. Scary at first, but now I love it, and will never stop training. I believe it’s important for your creativity and mental well being to constantly challenge and push yourself out of your comfort zone.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Oct 11, 2020)

thesteelydane said:


> On a completely unrelated note, this is why I took up Muay Thai. As an introverted pacifist who’s never been in a fight, I couldn’t find anything further from my comfort zone. Scary at first, but now I love it, and will never stop training. I believe it’s important for your creativity and mental well being to constantly challenge and push yourself out of your comfort zone.



Everyone should train martial arts and learn how to fight. The potential for growth is immense.


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## Matt Damon (Oct 11, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Yeah, TOP musicians. Where do you draw the line though? I've heard people post recordings from that 99-dollar orchestra or whatever it's called, and I thought the mockup sounded better. Musicians add a lot for sure, but if they aren't good enough, they'll add things I don't like too. What's the lowest quality of orchestral performance that you still would pick over well programmed samples?



That's also kind of hitting an issue with writing music for a symphonic orchestra itself.

It's extremely resource intensive. You need a LOT of musicians. A lot of skilled musicians at that.


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## Ray (Oct 11, 2020)

thesteelydane said:


> On a completely unrelated note, this is why I took up Muay Thai. As an introverted pacifist who’s never been in a fight, I couldn’t find anything further from my comfort zone. Scary at first, but now I love it, and will never stop training. I believe it’s important for your creativity and mental well being to constantly challenge and push yourself out of your comfort zone.


Wow, that is awesome. I might consider this, sounds like a really game changer for a "safe-zone" person.
Best of luck to you, and thanks for the insight!


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## Sunny Schramm (Oct 11, 2020)

over here most on/for tv is out of the box. you here libraries everywhere...


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## Farkle (Oct 11, 2020)

Ray said:


> Wow, that is awesome. I might consider this, sounds like a really game changer for a "safe-zone" person.
> Best of luck to you, and thanks for the insight!



Hey, Dane! I did a thing... started training this summer in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu; the one martial art "range" I never trained in. I'm exhausted, and clumsy, and slow, and I sweat too much and work too hard, and I'm LOVING IT! Hahah! 

Mike


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## Farkle (Oct 11, 2020)

Matt Damon said:


> That's not even the worst part tbh
> 
> It's the fact that real instruments can actually play music for real instruments.
> 
> ...




Preach, brotha. I actually built a Sibelius template that only uses Soundcanvas libraries, so that I can just "write" without bashing my head about "the optimal sample needed for this moment". Yes, the end result is "90's CRPG sound", but I'm having so much fun just _writing _(what I was trained to do); it's the way I like to write, and the way I like to think about music. And, my end results are so much better than if I "stare at my samples", and get frustrated.

Also, in a weird way, I like the sound of this 90's aesthetic; there's something "nostalgically charming" about this. Thanks for sharing man!

Mike


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## Matt Damon (Oct 11, 2020)

Farkle said:


> Also, in a weird way, I like the sound of this 90's aesthetic; there's something "nostalgically charming" about this. Thanks for sharing man!



I know that feel, man. I'm all about the 90s.

Also, if you'd like a free, still-sealed copy of "The Great Wall" on BluRay, feel free to PM me where you want it shipped!

Seriously, I've got like a thousand of these things in the garage


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## Daryl (Oct 12, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Yeah, TOP musicians. Where do you draw the line though? I've heard people post recordings from that 99-dollar orchestra or whatever it's called, and I thought the mockup sounded better. Musicians add a lot for sure, but if they aren't good enough, they'll add things I don't like too. What's the lowest quality of orchestral performance that you still would pick over well programmed samples?


With enough work, you can get a better result out of all professional orchestras than any sample mockup, as long as the music is actually written for orchestra, and not samples.

However, this requires that the orchestra has enough time to rehearse before the red light goes on, there is sufficient time for editing. and that the conductor knows what he/she is doing. In the case of some of these not so good recordings, all three of the aforementioned are lacking.


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## Heinigoldstein (Oct 12, 2020)

Ray said:


> That's great to hear! I'm not that comfortable to work with so many people. I really like working alone (weird, I know).


I like to work on my own too and a lot of jobs don´t give you the time or the budget anyway to hire a lot of musicians. But sometimes you have to take the plunge to enhance yourself. You don´t have to start with a whole orchestra. A tiny remote session with one or two instruments will help you AND your music. You will learn a lot.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 12, 2020)

Ray said:


> Wow, that is awesome. I might consider this, sounds like a really game changer for a "safe-zone" person.
> Best of luck to you, and thanks for the insight!



Be prepared for a couple of years of painful shins - but if you keep conditioning them, bumping your shin on a table leg will never hurt again


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 17, 2020)

I can’t imagine the logistics of using a live orchestra for a tv series. It would need to be a massive budget, and you’d have very little time to meet deadlines in most cases.


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## JonS (Oct 17, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I can’t imagine the logistics of using a live orchestra for a tv series. It would need to be a massive budget, and you’d have very little time to meet deadlines in most cases.


John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith both developed their chops writing for live orchestra for tv.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 17, 2020)

Michael Giacchino’s scores for Alias and Lost were also scored with live orchestra.


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## gsilbers (Oct 17, 2020)

JonS said:


> John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith both developed their chops writing for live orchestra for tv.



they also needed to edit the TV in Film reels and they had longer deadlines than todays shows.


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## gsilbers (Oct 17, 2020)

thesteelydane said:


> Michael Giacchino’s scores for Alias and Lost were also scored with live orchestra.



A lot has changed since those shows where released believe it or not. Deadlines are much much shorter since every country gets the show dubbed in their own language the same day its release in the US.
Once reason is due to piracy, the other is becuase these countries are not the same or more profitable than networks in the US and pay up for same date release. (and takes a few weeks to dub)

With that said, Disneys new shake up in the corporate structure might let showrunners get more time. its happenig with the Orvel which went to HULU only and gave seth more time to complete a season.

Disney is now planning to separate tv show prodcutions from distribution. Currently, the broadcaters and sales teams from the broadcasters are the ones that decide which show to pick (tons of detective stuff) and with netflix and binge watching things have been changing.

So from may (shows get picked up) to sept (shows start which include dubbing and releasing in EU , USA, Japan, Canada, Australia, Mexico, Brazil), there is an incredible short amount of time to record orchestra no matter what we like them to do.

With disney changing their pattern to just concentrate on making good shows that are not tied to these shedules, or deciding some shows get these shedules while disney+ and hulu shows get more time, then i think warner and others will fowlloe suit, and hopefully orchestra will be implemented.

The bad news; theyll probably try to get writers share just like netflix or pay very little royalties.


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## thesteelydane (Oct 18, 2020)

gsilbers said:


> A lot has changed since those shows where released believe it or not. Deadlines are much much shorter since every country gets the show dubbed in their own language the same day its release in the US.
> Once reason is due to piracy, the other is becuase these countries are not the same or more profitable than networks in the US and pay up for same date release. (and takes a few weeks to dub)
> 
> With that said, Disneys new shake up in the corporate structure might let showrunners get more time. its happenig with the Orvel which went to HULU only and gave seth more time to complete a season.
> ...



That’s sad to hear. Not directly related, but I’ve always been of the conviction that it is the duty of anyone working in the arts to push for work and fair pay of other artists. In a race to the bottom, creatives only survive by banding together and lifting each other up, not competing for the last breadcrumb. I don’t want a graphic artist working for me to be making peanuts, and I would hope composers will always push for live musicians and fair compensation for them. Sadly since making the switch from working musician to composer/developer I have seen many, many instances of the opposite happening, and apart from it being heartbreaking, I also can’t understand why anyone would think it’s a good long term strategy. In the end I believe it will come back to bite everyone, if we don’t keep live music alive.


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## JonS (Oct 18, 2020)

thesteelydane said:


> That’s sad to hear. Not directly related, but I’ve always been of the conviction that it is the duty of anyone working in the arts to push for work and fair pay of other artists. In a race to the bottom, creatives only survive by banding together and lifting each other up, not competing for the last breadcrumb. I don’t want a graphic artist working for me to be making peanuts, and I would hope composers will always push for live musicians and fair compensation for them. Sadly since making the switch from working musician to composer/developer I have seen many, many instances of the opposite happening, and apart from it being heartbreaking, I also can’t understand why anyone would think it’s a good long term strategy. In the end I believe it will come back to bite everyone, if we don’t keep live music alive.


The problem is composers are causing other composers to get paid significantly less if one is not on the top of the A-list. And, BMI and ASCAP are doing nothing about streaming companies like Netflix and Discovery who refuse to pay royalties to composers when the PROs are supposed to protect composers and songwriters from this.


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## Bighill (Oct 19, 2020)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I can’t imagine the logistics of using a live orchestra for a tv series. It would need to be a massive budget, and you’d have very little time to meet deadlines in most cases.


Well, it is not unusual at all.....


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## DantheMekon (Oct 19, 2020)

I've known a couple of people who were commissioned for composition, and were asked to produce guide tracks and charts for an orchestra rather than finished pieces.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Oct 19, 2020)

JonS said:


> John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith both developed their chops writing for live orchestra for tv.



Absolutely! I'm no expert by any means, but I think those days are long gone perhaps? The technology just wasn't there yet when they were in the industry. I know quite a few guys in the TV industry, and most composers are using VI's for mainstream TV series. I did a couple of series, and with the budget I was allocated, it would have been impossible to pay a real orchestra.....let alone the deadlines to pull it off.


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