# How do you make VI sound great ? Help please ...



## guinness28 (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi,

I have some questions about using virtual instruments in my DAW.
I'm using EWQLSO Gold and Complete Composer Collection in general, using Sonar Producer 8.5.
Maybe you'll find my question very strange, but ... How do you manage to make those virtual instrument sound well ?

When I compose, I have my template, and I edit a lot of things, to adjust the levels. For example, if I want the clarinets to be louder, I use the piano roll and draw some CC7 events (CC1 when I use Garritan ...). And then all my piece is written like that.

At the end, I make a final WAV file and that's all. But I realize that I must be missing something !!!!!
When I listen to many demos, they sound much more realistics than mine ! Could someone post kind of a tutorial to help me understand all the process ?

Sometimes I think that my compositions sound quite "muddy", very confuse, maybe the use of effects and mixing could help me.

Thanks very much for those who can help me.
Hope my english is ok (I'm french)
Alex


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## JohnG (Nov 4, 2012)

Bonjour Alex,

It is very hard to write music, and even harder to write for electronic instruments.

If you find your pieces muddy, it could be the samples, the orchestration or the composition itself. For most young composers (and old ones too!) the remedy is studying scores and hearing examples.

I like a couple of orchestration sources, both I believe in English. Our member Peter Alexander has an in-depth course and there's a book (with CDs) that I also like by Adler called The Study of Orchestration.

Does that help a little?


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## guinness28 (Nov 4, 2012)

Thanks for reply John,

I have Adler's book and so many others ...

I've been composing for a while now, very often for concert band, and many works for exams and contests (clarinet & piano, flute & piano, etc ...).

The problem is my mock-ups ... they don't sound realistic enough.
About my VI : EWQLSO, Garritan GPO and CoMB, not the best ones, but some people manage to make them sound !!!
Not me :cry: 

My question was about the process using VIs in DAWs.

I only use MIDI processing, but I saw on others forums that some people were exporting all their tracks in audio to remix them after.

That sounds complicated for me without a tutorial.

Alex


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## midi_controller (Nov 4, 2012)

There is a few things that you can do that might help. 

First up, study orchestration. I don't mean study orchestration books (though that can help too) but study scores (or use your ears if you can't find any scores) and see how your favorite composers orchestrate for live musicians. 

Next, when writing sustained phrases, use the patches located in Modxfd folders. These patches control dynamics using CC1 and not only change in volume, but in timbre. This way you can more accurately mimic how a real musician would play a note. You can also use either CC7 or CC11 to control volume if you need to. Also, do you play in your parts or input them into the sequencer with your mouse? If it's with a mouse, remember that velocity has an effect on dynamics on most patches, so be sure that you edit them accordingly (you can right click on a note and change the velocity).

The fact that you said your compositions sounds "muddy" makes me think you might have too much going on in the low end. Try different ways of voicing what you are doing, perhaps with different instrument combinations, and try not to have too much polyphony going on in the bass region.

Something to keep in mind is that many people's demos, especially here, are using many different libraries, many of which are much newer and more comprehensive than EWQLSO. Don't get me wrong, you can get amazing results out of EWQLSO, but eventually it will only take you so far in terms of realism. The main thing to focus on is not how real it sounds, but how good it sounds. If you have an awesome piece of music, people won't care about how real it sounds.

When you export to a WAV file, make sure that your track isn't clipping. If it is, look into getting a limiter so that you can increase the loudness of the track without distorting it. In terms of mixing there isn't really anything that I have found that covers orchestral music, so all I can say is do what sounds right to you, and try to read some basic mixing tutorials (even if they don't seem to apply to your particular style, you might still be able to learn a trick or two).

Hope that helps and above all, have fun!


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## José Herring (Nov 4, 2012)

guinness28 @ Sun Nov 04 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have some questions about using virtual instruments in my DAW.
> I'm using EWQLSO Gold and Complete Composer Collection in general, using Sonar Producer 8.5.
> ...


Posting the music in question would help a lot. There could be many things wrong, but without hearing it, we'd all be stabbing in the dark.


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## Kejero (Nov 5, 2012)

Applying reverb is pretty essential too. My go-to reverb today is QL Spaces. A free alternative is Ambience: this one came bundled with Garritan Personal Orchestra when I got it many years ago so maybe you already have it too. If not, you can get it at http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/#Ambience.

Some of the EWQLSO samples contain some noise in the low frequencies that you don't need (and that might make the mix muddier), so experiment with EQ. Your DAW probably has some default EQ plugins installed, so find out about and study those.
Waves has a nice plugin to monitor frequencies being played back: PAZ Analyzer. Not crucial but definitely nice to have.


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## guinness28 (Nov 5, 2012)

Here is an example of composition using EWQLSO and Garritan. This is the 1st mvt of my new Concerto for Euphonium and Concert band. Instruments used : Euphonium solo (Garritan) Picc (EW) 2 Flûtes (EW) 1 Ob (EW) 1 EH (EW) 1 Bsn (EW) 1 Eb Cl (Gar) 1st cl players (Gar) 2nd cl players (Gar) 3rd cl players (Gar) Eb Alto Cl (Gar) Bass clar (EW) 1st Alto Sax (Gar) 2nd Alto Sax (Gar) Tenor Sax (Gar) Bari Sax (Gar) 1st Trp (EW) 2nd & 3rd Trp (EW) 1st and 3rd Fr.Hn (EW) 2nd and 4th Fr.Hn (EW) 1st & 2nd Trb (EW) Bass Trb (EW) Euphonium section (Gar) Bass Tuba (EW) Dbl bass (EW) Harp (EW) All perc (EW) What do you think of the sound ? What would you change in the mix to make it sound better ? Thanks Alex (from France)

http://www.alexandrecarlin.com/Euph-...1-finalmix.mp3


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## Kejero (Nov 5, 2012)

That URL doesn't work Alex


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## guinness28 (Nov 5, 2012)

http://www.alexandrecarlin.com/Euph-con ... nalmix.mp3


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## Daniel (Nov 5, 2012)

Just heard it, congrats you have a good composing talent. I guess maybe you should get each track get processing (reverb, etc.). And this is honest suggestion, maybe you can get some inputs to have an incredible libraries/samples from the expert musicians from this forum. I heard a lot of your woodwinds is not in the legato. But your music is really really good 

Best,


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## Rctec (Nov 5, 2012)

Wow! I see what you mean...That does sound surprisingly terrible. I have two little thoughts: It's a Euphonium concerto. So you are starting off with a terrible example with that sample. Why not get a euphonium player into a decent space and sample him? It's not like its got a huge range like sampling a piano...and even though you obviously are in the process of writing, you can at least get something that is in the style and tone of what you're going to write. ..And disgussing things with a real player can be inspiring 
That all ties in with the second part of my thought. Most good sounding music has a visual element attached to it. The composer,the conductor, the sound engineer, (thats all you!) have a mental picture of what the sonic landscape looks like. They create spaces and perspectives, place their players in that space, tell a sonic story that invokes images. So, I would, for instance, shoot the guy playing the snaredrum. it's the wrong part, it sounds like it's only there because you couldn't get the energy out of the rest of the arrangement, its so obviously a short loop and makes the whole thing sound like you're a bit desperate. I know that feeling. I've done it myself.
I could go on...and on and on. But really, you know it's not sounding the way you want it to. The library doesn't matter (other then - well, you dont want the Euphonium in a Euphonium concerto to be an indifferent sample. Thats your lead vocal. You wouldnt want to write a song for that singer, would you?) You can do great mock-ups with any library. But you're a lot closer then you think, because you're prepared to question stuff. And though all the comments and advice I've read here are great and I thought really spot on, don't take too much notice. Experiment. It's really not that hard. Start with balancing things (cc11 is expression, cc7 is volume. Get it right now, it'll bite you later when you realize there is a conflict between automation data and midi cc's in your daw). stay away from compression and eq until you know what you're doing with space (pan, DDls, reverb, ambience)...and figure out what your sonic landscape looks like.


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## Hannes_F (Nov 5, 2012)

Alex,

nice writing!

In order to make your samples sing you need to shape every note individually. Every note is like an animal with a head (attack), waist (middle) and tail (end). Currently you only care about the heads but that is not enough.

Shaping is usually done in midi with control informations. The most common is what we call CC01, and that is most times connected with the modwheel on a keyboard. That is the little modulation wheel left on the keyboard.

Next common is CC11 which is most times connected with the foot pedal if you have one.

Garritan instruments correspond to CC01 mostly. Therefore we need to do what we call to 'ride the modwheel'.

If you have neither you need to draw the CC information with the mouse in your DAW.

Before you start exporting tracks or the like ... this is advanced. What you need first are beginner techniques like shaping the notes and applying some reverb.

Suggestion: Put your concert aside for a while and learn shaping and applying reverb with a simple training composition, e. g. for oboe and alto sax.


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## Rctec (Nov 5, 2012)

Wow! I see what you mean...That does sound surprisingly terrible. I have two little thoughts: It's a Euphonium concerto. So you are starting off with a terrible example with that sample. Why not get a euphonium player into a decent space and sample him? It's not like its got a huge range like sampling a piano...and even though you obviously are in the process of writing, you can at least get something that is in the style and tone of what you're going to write. ..And disgussing things with a real player can be inspiring 
That all ties in with the second part of my thought. Most good sounding music has a visual element attached to it. The composer,the conductor, the sound engineer, (thats all you!) have a mental picture of what the sonic landscape looks like. They create spaces and perspectives, place their players in that space, tell a sonic story that invokes images. So, I would, for instance, shoot the guy playing the snaredrum. it's the wrong part, it sounds like it's only there because you couldn't get the energy out of the rest of the arrangement, its so obviously a short loop and makes the whole thing sound like you're a bit desperate. I know that feeling. I've done it myself. 
I could go on...and on and on. But really, you know it's not sounding the way you want it to. The library doesn't matter (other then - well, you dont want the Euphonium in a Euphonium concerto to be an indifferent sample. Thats your lead vocal. You wouldnt want to write a song for that singer, would you?) You can do great mock-ups with any library. But you're a lot closer then you think, because you're prepared to question stuff. And though all the comments and advice I've read here are great and I thought really spot on, don't take too much notice. Experiment. It's really not that hard. Start with balancing things (cc11 is expression, cc7 is volume. Get it right now, it'll bite you later when you realize there is a conflict between automation data and midi cc's in your daw). stay away from compression and eq until you know what you're doing with space (pan, DDls, reverb, ambience)...and figure out what your sonic landscape looks like.


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## Frédéric P (Nov 5, 2012)

Hi Alex,
Nice work and orchestration...
Are you in Paris? If you are I could help you
Fred


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## germancomponist (Nov 5, 2012)

Good writing, Alex!

Your example reminds me to the old days when I did a demo fpr Garritan's CoMB library. I composed a march. It is elsewhere there on their forum.

Many good suggestions here! "Experiment", this is what I always did and do again. 

On the website of the philharmonia orchestra http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/thesoundexchange/make_music/samples/library/ you can find and download tons of audio examples (recorded single notes, phrases e.t.c.) of all orchestra instruments. There one can hear how the real things sound. They also built a free tuba Kontakt instrument what is very cool to use. 

I will add a word about reverb. Very often overlooked is the pre-delay setting. This parameter is so very much important for a best result, and yes, also tempi based. A cheap reverb with the correct settings can sound much better than visa versa.


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## chimuelo (Nov 5, 2012)

Just shows you it's in the skills mpore than the instrument IMHO.
I have heard Garritan Orchestra and SISS Mini do fine mock ups.
Mock ups can only go so far, and if you're used to real imstruments, it's hard to be convince yourself, but ultimately aren;t mock ups meant to be a sketch, then use real performers,..? That is if the money is available.

Nice stuff...


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## guinness28 (Nov 5, 2012)

Thanks to all for you replies.

To Fredereic P. --> je suis près de Dreux mais bosse souvent sur Vélizy.

To German componist --> good to hear you again, I heard your march on the northern sounds forum and had good memories, I even suggested you to publish it, remember ?

In general, I'm not sure to understand all the CC ...
And the problem is when you use some Garritan and EW stuffs, they don't apply CC events the same way !

- I thought that volume was CC1 for Garritan and CC7 for EW
- Velocity is the attack of the note, right ?
- I don't understand what CC11 is, balance ? Could you give me a basic example ?
- What would be the use of CC1 for EW instruments ? didn't catch it.

Thanks


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 5, 2012)

guinness28 @ Mon Nov 05 said:


> Thanks to all for you replies.
> 
> To Fredereic P. --> je suis près de Dreux mais bosse souvent sur Vélizy.
> 
> ...



Ah, now we come to the crux of it!

With most modern libraries cc11 (Expression) is volume plus... with a brass instrument it may not only get louder with a higher level, it will get , well, "brassier", more edgy, as a real brass instrument frequently does when playing it louder. With a strings library, the vibrato may get heavier as that is what frequently happens with real string players when they play louder, etc.


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## guinness28 (Nov 5, 2012)

It begins to be clearer for me.
As advised, I'm going to make a simple work, with just a few instrument, and play with the CC to practice.

Thanks very much for the advices


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## germancomponist (Nov 5, 2012)

Rctec @ Mon Nov 05 said:


> Wow! I see what you mean...That does sound surprisingly terrible. I have two little thoughts: It's a Euphonium concerto. So you are starting off with a terrible example with that sample. Why not get a euphonium player into a decent space and sample him? It's not like its got a huge range like sampling a piano...and even though you obviously are in the process of writing, you can at least get something that is in the style and tone of what you're going to write. ..And disgussing things with a real player can be inspiring
> That all ties in with the second part of my thought. Most good sounding music has a visual element attached to it. The composer,the conductor, the sound engineer, (thats all you!) have a mental picture of what the sonic landscape looks like. They create spaces and perspectives, place their players in that space, tell a sonic story that invokes images. So, I would, for instance, shoot the guy playing the snaredrum. it's the wrong part, it sounds like it's only there because you couldn't get the energy out of the rest of the arrangement, its so obviously a short loop and makes the whole thing sound like you're a bit desperate. I know that feeling. I've done it myself.
> I could go on...and on and on. But really, you know it's not sounding the way you want it to. The library doesn't matter (other then - well, you dont want the Euphonium in a Euphonium concerto to be an indifferent sample. Thats your lead vocal. You wouldnt want to write a song for that singer, would you?) You can do great mock-ups with any library. But you're a lot closer then you think, because you're prepared to question stuff. And though all the comments and advice I've read here are great and I thought really spot on, don't take too much notice. Experiment. It's really not that hard. Start with balancing things (cc11 is expression, cc7 is volume. Get it right now, it'll bite you later when you realize there is a conflict between automation data and midi cc's in your daw). stay away from compression and eq until you know what you're doing with space (pan, DDls, reverb, ambience)...and figure out what your sonic landscape looks like.



+1 for any word.


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## germancomponist (Nov 5, 2012)

guinness28 @ Mon Nov 05 said:


> To German componist --> good to hear you again, I heard your march on the northern sounds forum and had good memories, I even suggested you to publish it, remember ?


Thanks, I remember.

If you are using that old Garritan sounds again I would suggest u to insert there in the most instruments a filter (in Kontakt) what you can control via cc11 data, to fake the sound/timbre changes from pp to ff...... . This works also in many other instruments from other libs.


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## guinness28 (Nov 5, 2012)

Thanks very much to Mr Z. 
I read this post
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... t=#3653156

It made me understand so many things !
I interprated badly CC11, CC7, I understand now that to make it more realistic, I have to use both of them.

Thanks again, back to work so !

Alex


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 5, 2012)

eyedee @ Mon Nov 05 said:


> whatever sample library you are using, bend those darn samples to your will, make them do what you want them to by whatever means necessary. automation, reverb, EQ. bouncing down and chopping up audio...
> 
> 
> eyedee.



I am going to somewhat disagree with that advice. I would say "use the samples for what they naturally do well and when it is not coming out to your satisfaction in a reasonable amount of time, choose another instrument/library.

In my experience, in almost every endeavor in life, trying to bend something to your will that it does not want to do rarely turns out well unless you are a very powerful person


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## germancomponist (Nov 5, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Nov 05 said:


> I am going to somewhat disagree with that advice. I would say "use the samples for what they naturally do well and when it is not coming out to your satisfaction in a reasonable amount of time, choose another instrument/library.
> 
> In my experience, in almost every endeavor in life, trying to bend something to your will that it does not want to do rarely turns out well unless you are a very powerful person



It depends, Jay. Very often you can do cool things with your libs by a little bit or more tweaking. Listen to my taiko synth's!


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## EastWest Lurker (Nov 5, 2012)

germancomponist @ Mon Nov 05 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Nov 05 said:
> 
> 
> > I am going to somewhat disagree with that advice. I would say "use the samples for what they naturally do well and when it is not coming out to your satisfaction in a reasonable amount of time, choose another instrument/library.
> ...



Just a general rule of thumb IMHO. Of course, but I hear so much bad sounding stuff where it is obvious to me that people are trying to make a particular sampled instrument do something it is not well suited to when they would be better served choosing another.


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## germancomponist (Nov 5, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Nov 05 said:


> germancomponist @ Mon Nov 05 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Nov 05 said:
> ...


I think I know what you mean, and I do agree here.


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## Frédéric P (Nov 5, 2012)

Alex, Velisy is not so far from Paris. I live in the 4th and if you would like to have a look at my studio and speak about CC's or whatever, please let me know by PM.


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## Niah (Nov 5, 2012)

My words yours Jay.

Obvious stuff for sure but seems easily forgotten by many. 

What you are describing should be the very first thing to take into consideration.

IMO the VI world works backwards than the real world. Take care of the sound first and the rest will follow.


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