# Do you have to have the top technology to get into "fatter" gigs?



## impressions (Feb 1, 2014)

tiers. usually the ones on the outer tier, are with less means than the ones doing the best budgeted projects, in the inner tier. this is probably due to their talent which have brought them the income to buy better equipment in the first place. so the question is, do you know from your experience, of composers who have less means, to successfully tackle big budgeted projects? can a composer with old libraries beat an audition with a composer with the latest libs, with less skill than him?

of course it is a matter of skill in the craft itself, but is it really like this in reality?
alex pffefer said he wrote cues with terrible libraries and got into demoing better ones. 

alot of old AAA games, seemed to have composers working only symphobia or EWQLSO. say from 2004-2008.

do you need to have LASS2 or berlin strings/VSL to compete? etc.


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## germancomponist (Feb 1, 2014)

A friend of mine, a worldwide well known producer, still uses AO in his productions and it sounds great. Many use old or very old sounds/samples. Why not?

If it works, it works.


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## impressions (Feb 1, 2014)

i thought you were going to say gigasampler 
what is AO?


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## Studio E (Feb 1, 2014)

I would assume "Advanced Orchestra".


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## Madrigal (Feb 1, 2014)

impressions @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> do you need to have LASS2 or berlin strings/VSL to compete? etc.



No. 

Nowadays, you need good VIs/equipment, great ideas and excellent production skills. 

Once you've got these, you need a portfolio and a network. 

I sometimes hear cues posted here or elsewhere on the web that match the quality of AAA mockups. Can those composers score to picture and work under pressure? Do they have a good people skills, a good network, etc ? That's another story...

Even if you can dribble/shoot and run as fast as Messi or Ronaldo, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're a good team player, that you can handle the pressure or that you have the 6th sense needed to perform at a professional level. Makes sense?


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## Daryl (Feb 1, 2014)

I don't think John Williams has the latest technology, and his gigs are fat enough, I would have thought. :wink: 

D


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## Jetzer (Feb 1, 2014)

I am a big believer in knowing your samples really well, it speeds things up and you know instantly what you can/can't do. I know how to work with EW SO, which is considered old and I can make it sound good, though with room to improve. Still working on that...  

I don't know if this is a fact or not, but is it not so that while we consider the differences between libraries quite big, our 'clients' can't tell the difference? Well maybe they can, but it is not really the factor of choosing one composer or the other. Both old and new libraries sound can sound incredible, but also completely lifeless, depending on what the composers does with it. So when both can sound good, the client will probably choose not which sounds best/realistic (because he can't tell) but which sounds best/right for the project in his eyes.


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## germancomponist (Feb 1, 2014)

Madrigal @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> impressions @ Sat Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > do you need to have LASS2 or berlin strings/VSL to compete? etc.
> ...



*Exactly!*



impressions @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> i thought you were going to say gigasampler
> what is AO?



Like Erik told, the Advanced Orchestra from Peter S. There are many good other old libraries what are very useful also nowadays,


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## jeffc (Feb 1, 2014)

I would say absolutely not.

I think people get constantly seduced by the new 'hot' libraries and spend so much time worrying about technology, that they forget about what's the most important - the music. Nobody cares where the sounds come from, they just care if they have some type of emotional reaction when they hear it. I really think it's the time you spend learning to get the most out of what you've got that's the most important. 

I kind of laugh when I read some of the setups that people on this site have - with all the many multiple machines, it's like a technology arms race. And I think it really makes people lose sight of making good music. Who cares if your template has 500 tracks and the best of everything, if the music you're making sounds like everything else, than who cares? I'd take 3 tracks with some imagination and emotion any day. And I believe minimizing all of the new crap you buy makes you unknowingly come up with your own identity. Because so much of the latest and greatest stuff of the 'press one key and sound like a cue', makes everyone sound exactly the same, and I don't think that's a good thing at all.....

J


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## germancomponist (Feb 1, 2014)

How true, jeffc!


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## RiffWraith (Feb 1, 2014)

jeffc @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> Nobody cares where the sounds come from, they just care if they have some type of emotional reaction when they hear it.



Not true. Sure, many don't care. You get some young director, who doesn't now a sample lib from a Sasquatch, and all he cares about is how the final product will sound. Then there are others who DO care. I have been told - more than once - that many music prod. lib people will actually go to a composer's website (one who is submitting tracks for the first time) and check to see what libs they have. They may shy away from that person if they don't have the "latest and greatest". Not all of them do that, of course, but some do. I know someone a few years ago who lost a small composing gig because all he had was EWQLSO Gold, and a few other small little-known libs. Apparently this dir. didn't care about how the music sounded; he wanted to know that his film was going to contain the "latest and greatest". You may say, "that's stupid - it's the final product that matters"... and I wouldn't argue that one bit. But this is the way that it is.

I do admit, tho, that some people take their rig and their gear too far. I have seen composers' websites where they proclaim that they have the best keyboard and mouse... that they have the latest and fastest processor on the planet... that they have dual 30" monitors. I am like, "dude - who cares???" _That_ is the sort of stuff nobody cares about. But the libs - many people do care.

Cheers.


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## KEnK (Feb 1, 2014)

Personally I think sample libs turned a corner a few years ago. 
(maybe 5+ years ago)

Since then I'm not hearing "better", I'm hearing "different".
Often it's just gui's , mics, preset eqs (in the guise of ir's), etc.

The older libs are still excellent.

Other than at this forum, nobody ever asks me what libs I use.

k


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## Daryl (Feb 1, 2014)

RiffWraith @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> I have been told - more than once - that many music prod. lib people will actually go to a composer's website (one who is submitting tracks for the first time) and check to see what libs they have. They may shy away from that person if they don't have the "latest and greatest".


That doesn't sound like a "fatter" gig to me; more like the arse end of the industry. :lol: 

D


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## wst3 (Feb 1, 2014)

two cents from an outsider...

I think that no matter your composition/orchestration/production chops you need to hit a certain bare minimum level for libraries and plug-ins. I don't know where that bar sits, but I think it exists.

JW is an exception of course (there are a few) - his technology is so far ahead of those of us using VIs that it isn't a fair fight...

What I've found to be true, and others have alluded to, is that some of the potential clients can not hear through a sub-standard production to recognize a good composition. Some can of course, but it seems to be a dying skillset.

30 years ago I would record a rough draft of a composition and that's what I'd present for review. No one expected me to have a full blown studio, they expected me to get the idea across.

They'd judge the composition, and then I'd get hired, or not, and then I'd do the real production. In some ways this was an easier path.

I do NOT want to give up the ability to hear my compositions and arrangements, don't get me wrong. But I do sometimes tire of the arms race.

That's partly because I've managed to stay a full step behind for quite a while now. I suppose I could make the leap, but it is easier for me to invest money that has already come in these days, what with a family and all that.

Fortunately there are people that can listen through the weak overall production, and so I can use the tools I have, I just have to be a bit more selective on selecting potential projects.

I also think that I need to re-focus my production approach. I still think in terms of live players, and I really need to think in terms of virtual players playing virtual instruments. I am certain I can do better with the tools that I have already... it is just a matter of woodshedding!

A different, maybe more accurate question might be "Is it easier to get the fatter gigs if you have the current generation of libraries and other top tech?" I think the answer to that is yes, but I'm not sure that it is a good thing<G>!


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## RiffWraith (Feb 1, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Feb 02 said:


> RiffWraith @ Sat Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been told - more than once - that many music prod. lib people will actually go to a composer's website (one who is submitting tracks for the first time) and check to see what libs they have. They may shy away from that person if they don't have the "latest and greatest".
> ...



Heh - true - the OP did say "the fatter gigs"... so if you are talking about big budget projects, the answer would be no. I just went off on a little tangent that may not have been the most relevant thing ever posted here... :lol:


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## AR (Feb 1, 2014)

What I always tell my assistent: Use the web! Search out for the VI of your needs. The moment you stop searching for new libraries in your free time you loose your job!

So, I would say: Part of your job is to know your equipment, to know the technology, to go with the flow. It keeps you in the competition. 

On the other hand....there are a lot of guys on this forum that praise this and that library but never used it to it's purposed extend. They keep focusing on the wrong thing. They believe that having every instrument out there makes them a good composer, instead of inviting good musicians to their studio and learn from them how the real instrument works.


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## José Herring (Feb 1, 2014)

I think newer products can lift the level of your production overall. I was amazed when I got LASS-LS and HB+HS how my overall sound improved. But, in all honesty, I was working the same as when I had only EWQLSO and SISS. I had learned to use those libraries overall and could get decent results with them.

In the end when I fail to achieve something, the libraries I use are never in question. Rather my lack of ideas. 

So I'm with Jeffc. Focus on the music. Then what you're lacking will be apparent and you can purchase the products that suite what you do.

I was all up in the techno arms race. Then I went to this guy's studio one day. He literally had $50,000 worth of gear in his apartment. After I heard his music, my thoughts were that the money would have been better spent buying a house and getting some music lessons. Since then I've put the tech on the back burner and tried to focus my attention on making the music better and more current appealing. In the end, we're judged on what audience we can hit.

Cliff Martinez is a great example. He's doing some pretty interesting work using 1 computer and a handful of synths that are copies from the 80ies and 90ies. His music speaks to his audience. The level of production doesn't matter as much as his unique personality.

HZ on the other has everything. But, he never loses sight of his unique voice and he was also very popular when he had a lot less.

So I'd focus a lot of your attention on getting a voice that hits with an audience somewhere and not worry so much about the gear.

It's almost starting to irk me the amount of people jumping on the next thing when they haven't even gotten a grasp of what they have. 

A lot of the guys doing the best mockups with the latest products were also doing great mockups with lesser products. And personally my mockups have improve mostly by learning better what I have.


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## gsilbers (Feb 1, 2014)

im always chasing the gear dragon. ~o) 

for gigs i think its more about relashonships than anything else. 
since every story is different i couldnt say for sure. but most what ive seen its about building relashionships and building portfolio so you get more and more known and known that you can deliver a working score/project. 
would williams or HZ under another name just get a good gig just from a good (unrleased) demo they cold submit somewhere? 

maybe you can step it up one time and record an orchestra, real instruments or whatever project you do you go all out, maybe from your own money. like an investment. that way once you establish more relashionships theyll get to listen to a good demo, even tey are shopping around for a new composer. 
like stepping back to jump higher. 

anyways just a thought. im still trying to see how im going to sell stuff to get that new moog and a pair of focals :mrgreen:


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## MA-Simon (Feb 3, 2014)

I am at the far low-end, but when I get asked, I get asked for specific instruments ore sounds, not libraries.


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## jonathanwright (Feb 13, 2014)

VI envy should be recognised as a real affliction.

:shock: 

Due to 'real world' issues such as moving home my budget has been very limited over the last few months, so I've been simply unable to buy the latest and greatest - forcing me to use what I have.

Not being tempted to buy (or buying then having to learn) a new library has meant using the ones I already have is now second nature, which has sped up my production of music a great deal.

I've also noticed how little I use some of them when at the time I bought them I thought they'd be indispensable. Often buying an entire library just because I like the sound of one instrument!

So really it's like the other guys have said, you do need a decent base library that sounds realistic and gives you a broad enough pallet and allows you to compose quickly and create a professional finished mix. Anything more than that can be just window dressing.

Of course as soon as my cash in the bank builds up I'll be dribbling at the latest new release.

:mrgreen:


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## IFM (Feb 13, 2014)

I'll add that one thing is to pick a DAW and stick to it (learn it). I am semi guilty of being overly curious about what the others have to offer so I own DP, Logic, and C7.5. Mainly I compose in Logic because I've been using it the longest and know it very well (and still always finding new things about it). But no matter which one you decide on (or have decided on) learn to use as much of it as you can. The goal is that it becomes transparent to your creative process and you can concentrate on making music when it counts. That's my .02 :D

Chris


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## charlieclouser (Feb 13, 2014)

I'm a repeat offender in terms of buying all the latest and biggest libraries and then never using them at all. 

I get bored and next thing you know it's "add to cart" and an 18 gigabyte download. I can honestly say that 99% of my orchestral sounds are oldies but goodies like Sonic Implants, Miroslav, and Kirk Hunter strings (bought in Akai or EXS format) and EWQLSO which I converted from Kontakt 2 format into EXS a decade ago. Some of the stuff in EWQLSO gold edition are still my favorites - their sul pont trems are to die for - icy jiggles! I love 'em.

I have a bunch of Vienna stuff and I used the cellos on three cues on a movie a few years back. Same for LASS - I needed a sloppy legato one time and that's all it was ever used for. CineBrass, Albions, and CineStrings have yet to make it on anything for me. Some 8dio / Soundiron / Tonehammer bits and bobs have made it onto cues here and there, and some of the atonal effects from Symphobia… but I still use the ancient stuff because it's lighter on the disc, cpu, and my brain - and I prefer how it sounds compared to the more modern and elaborate libraries. I make heavy use of things like "mutes on" strings, sul pont trems, strings harmonics, etc. and skip over whole categories of sounds.

Then again, I'm not trying to simulate real orchestra, I'm just using those tonalities as part of my own murky blend of blurry sounds - if I was doing straight-up simulation I'd probably have to really get inside these libraries and make them a part of my workflow. I just keep them around in case of emergency.

But I've done a dozen or so mid-range features and 250 or so episodes of network tv with the old favorites mentioned above, and nobody has ever complained or commented in any way about the sound quality, realism, legibility, lack of multiple mic positions etc. I just mash the sounds together until they sound the way I want. The old Kirk Hunter cellos+basses section is on every cue I've ever done, and it only has like twelve samples covering a couple of octaves - no velocity splits, no round robins, no articulations - just a great wooly bottom end that I love.

So, yeah. I think if you have sounds you like the tonality of it doesn't matter if they're simple or elaborate, if they're modern Kontakt libs or old crusty Akai S-1000 banks - if they sound good to you then you'll be inspired to create with them and hopefully create some music you like. 

Just last week I bought the Denny Jaeger strings in EXS format from Q Up Arts because I remember doing a session with a Synclavier guy back in the late 1980's who had the full Denny strings and it sounded awesome. These are not by any means modern - no velocity splits or round robins - but the tone is something I like and besides, nobody else is going to be using them!


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## AC986 (Feb 14, 2014)

Madrigal @ Sat Feb 01 said:


> impressions @ Sat Feb 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Even if you can dribble/shoot and run as fast as Messi or Ronaldo, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're a good team player



I can dribble. That's about all I can do now at my age. :oops:


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## AR (Feb 14, 2014)

I'd say you don't have to own 'em all. But you have to know them all. If you are the kind of guy who says "I am oldskool. I know my old stuff and thats it" you're already overrun by stupid tech guys who hardly know about music but have a fat sound. Technology is always evolving, always coming up with something new. Gosh, some patches from 2008 still sound better than some instruments that coming out this summer (for example). But you didn't know cause you weren't up to date back then.
That's why you gotta watch many reviews about new products. If they help you evolve your sound, go get them.


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## peksi (Feb 17, 2014)

back in the days when i used to make dance music i always remember two examples from the electronic genre.

1. jean michel jarre. sure he had ton of equipment but his style was minimalistic, he made some songs with crappy sounds but the melodies were stunning.
2. an europop group "2 unlimited" used to make their first tracks with something like home computer and cheap sampler but those we're the songs that made them popular and had some real balls at the time. after that they bought high end gear, lost the spirit and their downfall started.


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