# Spatialization plug-in recommendations



## Matt Riley (Mar 2, 2020)

I’m working on a project for concert band and everything sounds good in the mix except for the SWAM saxes which sound really upfront. Adding reverb sends and lowering faders help some but do not completely solve the problem. Is there a specialization plug-in that you would recommend for this situation and others? I also record solo instruments and want to blend them with a sampled orchestra. I use Logic, VEP7 + server PC, and a million sample libraries.


----------



## Bear Market (Mar 2, 2020)

I guess you mean "spatialization"?

Seems to me you would need to add some early reflections (and perhaps some eq) to your saxes to push them back. Check out Proximity by TDR Labs (https://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/). It is free!

I can also recommend 2CAudio's Precedence.

Or, simply try to insert a reverb plugin on your sax intrument channel and play with the ERs and wetness.


----------



## Matt Riley (Mar 2, 2020)

Bear Market said:


> I guess you mean "spatialization"?
> 
> Seems to me you would need to add some early reflections (and perhaps some eq) to your saxes to push them back. Check out Proximity by TDR Labs (https://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/). It is free!
> 
> ...


Oops! I was using speech dictation on my phone. I will edit that now. And thanks for the recommendation, i’ll check it out!


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 2, 2020)

Bear Market said:


> I guess you mean "spatialization"?
> 
> Seems to me you would need to add some early reflections (and perhaps some eq) to your saxes to push them back. Check out Proximity by TDR Labs (https://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/). It is free!
> 
> ...



Does Proximity AU work with Catalina yet?


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 2, 2020)

https://www.auburnsounds.com/products/Panagement.html
This one is pretty good. I use it a lot recently since spat slowly refuses to run at the latest updates.


----------



## Bear Market (Mar 2, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Does Proximity AU work with Catalina yet?



Don't know, I haven't taken the plunge. I'm still on Mojave.


----------



## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 2, 2020)

Affordable and fairly good: earreverb 2.
Top of the pops: Spat ( revolution) 

Several mixed opinions on Mir pro from users. I have mirx for my vsl libs so I cant comment.

Would not advice: virtualsoundstage


----------



## Vin (Mar 2, 2020)

SPAT is the best plugin for spatialization, but it isn't cheap.

As mentioned before, to push a dry instrument back you can try adding a reverb instance as an insert with quite wet mix ratio.

Check this video from around 10:00 onwards:


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 2, 2020)

Try the Ozone 9 Advanced trial, there are some good tools in there that might achieve this.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 2, 2020)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Try the Ozone 9 Advanced trial, there are some good tools in there that might achieve this.



Wolfie, which module do you mean?


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 2, 2020)

Vin said:


> SPAT is the best plugin for spatialization, but it isn't cheap.
> 
> As mentioned before, to push a dry instrument back you can try adding a reverb instance as an insert with quite wet mix ratio.
> 
> Check this video from around 10:00 onwards:




I had it for a while but frankly it apparently requires more intelligence to use well than I possess.


----------



## Living Fossil (Mar 2, 2020)

Precedence is great, specially in combination with Breeze2.

However, until tommorrow you could also get DearVR Pro at a ridiculous prize (29 €).
There are different output formats, e.g. Stereo for Speakers let you do crazy good pannings.
It comes with over 30 spaces (concert rooms, churches, streets etc.), so i think you should give a try.









Dear Reality dearVR PRO


The most comprehensive 3D audio solution for sound designers and music professionals in the VR/AR industry.




www.plugin-alliance.com


----------



## Matt Riley (Mar 2, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Precedence is great, specially in combination with Breeze2.
> 
> However, until tommorrow you could also get DearVR Pro at a ridiculous prize (29 €).
> There are different output formats, e.g. Stereo for Speakers let you do crazy good pannings.
> ...


It show up as $349 in my cart...


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 2, 2020)

All I want is some tool that helps libraries recorded in situ with depth. They tend to have the right horizontal relationship but miss the boat on the “closer to the conductor-further from the conductor “ feeling, for me.


----------



## Living Fossil (Mar 2, 2020)

Matt Riley said:


> It show up as $349 in my cart...



You need one of those codes:






Plugin Alliance - best two plugins?


PA is having some killer sale where you can get any two plugins for $30 each. Any PA faves here for orchestral / general use?




vi-control.net


----------



## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 2, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Wolfie, which module do you mean?



I was thinking the Imager might work, but maybe not.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 2, 2020)

That looks like it's similar to the Waves S1 (I have RX6 Advanced, but an older version of Ozone, so I can only surmise).


----------



## MartinH. (Mar 2, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> All I want is some tool that helps libraries recorded in situ with depth. They tend to have the right horizontal relationship but miss the boat on the “closer to the conductor-further from the conductor “ feeling, for me.



Try Panagement, as has already been recommended in this thread.


----------



## José Herring (Mar 2, 2020)

Matt Riley said:


> I’m working on a project for concert band and everything sounds good in the mix except for the SWAM saxes which sound really upfront. Adding reverb sends and lowering faders help some but do not completely solve the problem. Is there a specialization plug-in that you would recommend for this situation and others? I also record solo instruments and want to blend them with a sampled orchestra. I use Logic, VEP7 + server PC, and a million sample libraries.


SPAT is great, but you can also do everything that SPAT does manually.

Look at my video get ideas. I did this like years ago but some of the basics still apply even though I think I misunderstood some of the math at the time.


----------



## Living Fossil (Mar 2, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That looks like it's similar to the Waves S1 (I have RX6 Advanced, but an older version of Ozone, so I can only surmise).



Nick, the Ozone Imager is totally different from the S1 (i use both all the time).
The S1 deals with MS for widening and has that amazing Asymetry/Rotation combo.
Ozone's imager works in a more complex way (it has some stereoize options), is multiband and is focused on widening.


----------



## gsilbers (Mar 2, 2020)




----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 2, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Ozone's imager works in a more complex way (it has some stereoize options), is multiband and is focused on widening.



I was thinking of the PS22, which does some phase shozzle to widen the image, not the S1.

But that's not for positioning, of course.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 2, 2020)

Okay, and I have Imager inside Ozone 6 Advanced. I was wrong about only having Ozone 2.

Coolio, will have to play with it. So many toys, so little time.


----------



## Living Fossil (Mar 2, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I was thinking of the PS22, which does some phase shozzle to widen the image, not the S1.



I guess ozone's imager works in a more complex way than PS22 (however, i don't own that one).
It helps enhancing the reverb and keeps the details, and i like the possiblity to engage a low band which can narrow.
iirc, the PS22 shifts frequency regions, similar to Logic's Stereo Spread (but i could be wrong).

And yes, much too many toys, much too little time


----------



## labornvain (Mar 2, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> Precedence is great, specially in combination with Breeze2.
> 
> However, until tommorrow you could also get DearVR Pro at a ridiculous prize (29 €).
> There are different output formats, e.g. Stereo for Speakers let you do crazy good pannings.
> ...



Clearly, what was ridiculous was its "normal" price of over $300.


----------



## Gingerbread (Mar 2, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> You need one of those codes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks pretty damn cool....but do you have to have subscribed to their newsletter for that special offer? Not seeing anything on the website.


----------



## labornvain (Mar 2, 2020)

I suggest you just get Panagement 2 and solve your problem. I have every spacialization program ever made. The best, IMO, is Spat. Precedence would be a close contender had they not made the incomprehensibly stupid decision to exclude the space from a spacialization program. 

Panagement has a low CPU overhead and doesn't fuck upo the sound of your track. And it's free.


----------



## Living Fossil (Mar 2, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Clearly, what was ridiculous was its "normal" price of over $300.



That plugin actually is quite state of the art for VR stuff. It's well worth its full prize, if you use it for projects where you have your RoI.
I've tested Panagement, and i don't like it. I like working with Precedence though and actually have a project, where DearVR is super handy. It's really a beast, of course with an other focus (i.e. movements in 3D space)


----------



## Living Fossil (Mar 2, 2020)

Gingerbread said:


> That looks pretty damn cool....but do you have to have subscribed to their newsletter for that special offer? Not seeing anything on the website.



Yes, above i linked a VI-Control thread


----------



## re-peat (Mar 2, 2020)

josejherring said:


> SPAT is great, but you can also do everything that SPAT does manually.




Nothing could be further from the truth, José. Not saying that SPAT is always an absolute requirement for convincing spatialization — if you know what you’re doing, and depending on the specifics of the task at hand, you can be quite successful at it with nothing more than a simple stereo tool, an EQ, a delay and a decent reverb — , but I *am* saying that SPAT takes things to a level where no other software (or combination of software) can go. Only SPAT offers complete and very meticulous control over the incredibly complex phenomenon that occurs when sound is generated, at a specific location, in a space. Every imagineable aspect and ingredient of that phenomenon — and even several aspects and ingredients you didn’t even know existed, let alone were aware that they played such an important part in the process — can be controlled, tweaked and adjusted.

(DearVR, for example, while certainly a fine and reasonably useful tool, omits several important controls that allows one to define the character and behaviour of the spatialization. Which makes it, in my view, more of a frustrating affair than a welcome aid. But they're definitely on to something.)

Think of any problem you’ve ever faced when it comes to spatializing sounds and instruments, and SPAT has a solution for it, and invariably a much better one than you might have dreamed of. The opening poster’s problem of putting the SM saxophones more in the back of the mix — or _anywhere_ in the mix, for that matter —, is something that SPAT solves in a matter of seconds. Blending dry libraries (VSL, XSample, modeled sounds, …) with any orchestral library you care to mention is, again, ultra-light work for SPAT. And every single time, with results that are both technically and muscially wholly satisfying.

SPAT is also the only software that I know of — and I’ve tried nearly all the alternatives quite extensively — that generates a completely solid, sonically pristine two- or multi-channel output with unwavering consistency and reliability. With SPAT you get none of those phase problems that tend to mar most convolution-based (or poorly programmed algorithmic) spatialization, nor the audible filtering processes that you can, almost immediately, hear at work in lesser software.

SPAT (v3), to me, is the most brilliant and well-made piece of music- and sound-related software I have ever encountered. Seriously. (Compared to it, it’s very tempting to dismiss all the alternatives — from the majestic MIRPro to the humble Panagement — as rather clumsy and inadequate toys.) There was a thread about ‘game changers’ not too long ago; I have only one entry for that list: Ircam SPAT v3. If all of us worked with that piece of software, not only would a few more Frenchmen have become filthy rich, but there wouldn’t be a single reverb- or spatialization-related thread on VI-C, or any other forum, as no one would have a problem with it. (Except maybe Jay who, by his own admission, appears to suffer from a degree of mental insufficiency that disqualifies him from using this software.)

Flux:: is a strange company though. Both capable of genius-like brilliance and utter stupidity. The collaboration with Ircam which resulted in the first three versions of SPAT comes without a doubt under the former header, but the transformation of SPAT into SPAT Revolution — a bloated, resource-eating monstrosity that redefines the words ‘cumbersome’ and ‘unwieldy’ — is unquestionably an example of the latter. Revolution may have been good news for post-production people, but it certainly hasn’t been the upgrade that musicians/engineers/producers had hoped for (even if it includes several things I had on my wishlist for SPAT v4). And Revolution also has emerged as so complex a contraption that simply getting it to work — smoothly and efficiently, I mean, like its predecessor — has become something of a challenge. Real shame.

All of which makes this whole discussion about SPAT a bit moot unfortunately, because since the release of Revolution, the software’s most appealing and useful incarnation (for us musicians, that is) — version 3 — is no longer available and second-hand copies are extremely rare. My advice: if you see one on offer, and if high-quality spatialization matters to you, buy it.

_


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 3, 2020)

I do plead guilty, Piet to my own charge of simply not having the intellect to deal effectively with Spat. I probably should have contacted you and begged for a tutorial before I deleted it years ago, but we were not on good terms at the time. You certainly have made really good use of it.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 3, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> I've tested Panagement, and i don't like it. I like working with Precedence though and actually have a project, where DearVR is super handy. It's really a beast, of course with an other focus (i.e. movements in 3D space)


Did you try the new Panagement 2 with the various settings? Or just the first simple version when it came out? I think the new version is pretty useable. Not much to not like at least to my ears.


----------



## Living Fossil (Mar 3, 2020)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Did you try the new Panagement 2 with the various settings? Or just the first simple version when it came out? I think the new version is pretty useable. Not much to not like at least to my ears.



Yes, it was version 1. Soon afterwards i bought Precedence, and stopped watching the newer versions of Panagement.


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 3, 2020)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Did you try the new Panagement 2 with the various settings? Or just the first simple version when it came out? I think the new version is pretty useable. Not much to not like at least to my ears.




In the manual, I see settings for width, but not depth. Is that only achieved in its reverb?


----------



## José Herring (Mar 3, 2020)

@Ashermusic the key to Spat is just understanding the terms. It took me a 1/2 a day to realize that when it talks about "pitch" they meant the angle of the nose of an airplane in 3 dimensions. Then it took me a while to wrap my whits around "Yaw". Pitch and Yaw, I mean seriously guys no need to make shit harder than it already is by using terms that nobody has ever heard of. Nothing kills creativity than having to break out your systems engineering manuals 
I did a review of Spat many years ago when it first came out. This will give you a bit more on what it can do.

I also think that the any combination of plugins can achieve similar results as Spat. I only stopped using it because I went 64bit and at the time SPAT was only 32 bit. Then I fell out of favor with it and started using the precedent effect as well as Izoptope's Imager, ect... VEPro's power panning and various other tools. Though SPAT was a great all in one tool and offers so much more than that.


My article is here for anybody that wants to read it. (though looking back on it 8 years later, I'm not too happy with the audio examples)

Taken from my review is a brief explanation of some of the main parameters. Not sure if I nailed it but it's a start into SPAT.

_Copyright ©2012 Jose Herring Below the main graphic display on the source page you have a section called “Radiation” which adjusts the way that the source signal radiates in the space.Through a set of sliders you can control Distance which is the distance in meters from the listening position of your source.Azimuth is the angle between 2 or more audio sources (stereo width).Yaw is the angle of the source with respect to the axis ( meaning, “in English” that you can turn your virtual player all the way around so that he’s facing another direction entirely).Elevation is height of source.For Pitch, think in 3D and the angle of a nose of an airplane.The Aperture is especially important as with this you can narrow the signal source thus allowing you to more accurately place your virtual players in a space.All this feeds into a reverb plugin that I found quite useful._



http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/samples/soniccontrol/Ircam-Tools-SPAT-Worth-Its-Bytes-In-Gold_04-27-2012.pdf


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 3, 2020)

Thanks Jose’.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 3, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> In the manual, I see settings for width, but not depth. Is that only achieved in its reverb?


No the reverb section and an additional delay section can be turned of. The spatialize section where you control the depth is independent and is controlled by a knob that you place in the room very similar to spat. Width is just that. Also important for the perceived distance of the sound as you know and adjustable independently. In terms of controls it's a bit like a very simplified version of spat with an additional delay and more or less understandable teminology 😀
Panagement 2 is a completely different beast than version 1. Which was kind of promising but not really that appealing soundwise. IMO
After Spat refuses to work in my VePro instances with the latest version it is a workable alternative I would say. But I have no Piet-ears unfortunately.


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 3, 2020)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> No the reverb section and an additional delay section can be turned of. The spatialize section where you control the depth is independent and is controlled by a knob that you place in the room very similar to spat. Width is just that. Also important for the perceived distance of the sound as you know and adjustable independently. In terms of controls it's a bit like a very simplified version of spat with an additional delay and more or less understandable teminology 😀
> Panagement 2 is a completely different beast than version 1. Which was kind of promising but not really that appealing soundwise. IMO
> After Spat refuses to work in my VePro instances with the latest version it is a workable alternative I would say. But I have no Piet-ears unfortunately.




Thanks, I think Panagement 2 will fit my limited needs quite well.


----------



## M Abela (Mar 4, 2020)

Living Fossil said:


> That plugin actually is quite state of the art for VR stuff. It's well worth its full prize, if you use it for projects where you have your RoI.
> I've tested Panagement, and i don't like it. I like working with Precedence though and actually have a project, where DearVR is super handy. It's really a beast, of course with an other focus (i.e. movements in 3D space)



Just bought dearVR Pro and started using it on a project. Now that is what I call spatialization.


----------



## Markus Kohlprath (Mar 4, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Thanks, I think Panagement 2 will fit my limited needs quite well.


Thats possible. Would be great to hear how you get along with it Jay.


----------



## maestro2be (Jul 18, 2020)

Reviving this thread as it mentions very gently what I just found out.

SPAT v3 is still my favorite one of all the tools mentioned. It's so good at what it does. I am very sad though to learn after spending 3 months building a new DAW and 1500 track template all built around SPAT v3, that it's the reason my DAW crashes. I have been chasing a startup crash on every project and every VE Pro project for months. I accidentally found this was the cause by removing my iLok key which disabled SPAT v3. I loaded my projects and went oh crap! Please don't tell me my iLok died! Only to realize I had unplugged it on purpose (long story and tired). I immediately remember thinking wait, my entire project didn't crash on startup. So I rebooted and tried again. No crashing. Shit, can it be my favorite plugin of all time seriously that's been wreaking havoc on my startups and random crashing?

Plugged in the iLok, rebooted, loaded my project. BOOM, CRASH, REBOOT! What the F***! I just spent literally 2 months of my life sitting here positioning every instrument I have with this tool. I dam near cried.

Sad that this plugin is receiving no more updates. It's so great. I am going through separation anxiety right now lol. My wife says, wow you're really depressed today lol.

MIR Pro is great, it just adds a mud/buildup to the sound I can't ever seem to get rid of entirely. Precedence is just not in the same league and takes to much fiddling with the attached reverb to get to try to get a result you're looking for. I was never able to make it sound how I wanted at this point. Panagement seems to be pretty neat but after a few hours of playing with it, I cannot get it to give me the same results as SPAT. It's definitely pretty good though no doubt and is stable on my system. I think I am going to keep this one around and keep playing with it compared to MIR Pro. It's also super easy to use.

MIR Pro after many hours of massaging and playing is giving me pretty good results (or my ears are getting fatigued). I really wish this tool had some really in depth tutorials on how to use it. And I don't mean the basic, how to take a VSL instrument and pick a profile and go. That always sounds good on 1 instrument and then you add more. Now the buildup and mud gets overwhelming. There's some really nice people who put out videos but I can't bear to tell them how bad it sounds after all the work they put into it. I do feel like this tool will be the one of all those mentioned to continue to get developed and supported so it's getting my strong lean at this point. I really like the VSL Team. I really want to love this product. It has a visual appeal like no other and it has always appeared to me to have incredible potential. I just haven't been able to reach it and I have owned it since it's initial inception. I have heard rumor that 3D sound is coming for it as well which will be really welcomed.

Sorry for the long depressed rant. This really knocked the wind out of my sails today. I have no idea how I am going to accept and live without this product lol.


----------



## labornvain (Jul 18, 2020)

If you can get deer VR, which usually sells for like 350 bucks, for the sale price listed above, you should do it immediately.

It isn't as good as spat, but it comes pretty close and out of all the spacialization plugins I've used, and I have them all, Dear VR like Spat will maintain the quality of be your audio signal.

It's pretty shocking how bad some of these spacialization plugins will trash your audio.

The only ones I have that preserve pristine audio quality are Spat, DearVR, and Precedence.

The Auburn Sounds one comes pretty close, what is fairly well lacking in the Reverb engine which is critically important in stimulating a real space.


----------



## Dietz (Jul 18, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> MIR Pro is great, it just adds a mud/buildup to the sound I can't ever seem to get rid of entirely.


Some things to keep in mind: 

- If you don't do classical orchestral music in the actual sense of the word, you will most likely want to reduce the overall Wet/Dry-ratio considerably, e.g. by 30%. The Global Wet/Dry Offset fader in the Output Panel is what you might want to use to check it out.

- For anything but the aforementioned classical orchestral music mixes you could try to switch off the automatic Distance Dependent Scaling of the dry signal component. That way the wet signal's volume won't change too much even when changing the instrument's Icon on a Venue's stage.

- There is a bank of 32 RoomEQ settings in each MIR Pro project which you can and shape assign to one or several instruments. This is the most important tool to get rid of "mud".

- If the room's "buildup" overwhelms your mix, try to reduce the reverb length a bit. The positioning and depth achieved by MIR won't change too much, and you can always add a bit of algorithmic reverb if you miss the long tails (e.g. by means of MIRacle which comes with MIR Pro for exactly this "hybrid" approach).

- MIR "thinks" like an audio engineer. If you dig the hall, but want more width and clarity (or quite contrary: more focus) it might be the best idea to change the Main (and Secondary) Microphone's capsule shapes and arrangement in the Output Format editor. There are quite a few presets to get you started.

... if you want to get some hints how all of this works you can alway toy around with the so-called "MIRx Mode" which activates a layer of presets - both for the Venue and all Vienna Instruments ever released. You don't necessarily have to us the latter, though, but you can use the "General Purpose" Instrument Profiles that come with it as a starting point for your own creations.

FWIW: Alan Meyerson uses MIR Pro in some of his most recent mixes, and he seems to like what he hears.  I'll try to talk him into some kind of walk-through video once the Covid-19 dust has settled ...


----------



## maestro2be (Jul 18, 2020)

labornvain said:


> If you can get deer VR, which usually sells for like 350 bucks, for the sale price listed above, you should do it immediately.
> 
> It isn't as good as spat, but it comes pretty close and out of all the spacialization plugins I've used, and I have them all, Dear VR like Spat will maintain the quality of be your audio signal.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I see this product has a 14 day trial. I am going to give it a spin.


----------



## maestro2be (Jul 18, 2020)

Dietz said:


> Some things to keep in mind:
> 
> - If you don't do classical orchestral music in the actual sense of the word, you will most likely want to reduce the overall Wet/Dry-ratio considerably, e.g. by 30%. The Global Wet/Dry Offset fader in the Output Panel is what you might want to use to check it out.
> 
> ...



Dietz,

I had known about the room EQ but for some reason, I never made the connection until you said it that I can actually create up to 32 different versions of that room EQ and then assign on a per instrument whichever EQ setting I want to use. That's some cool shit and I am definitely going to try that!

I often find that I enjoy it more when I dial down the Wet/Dry no matter what I am doing. I seem to prefer no matter what room I choose in MIR Pro, to turn down the "Reverberation Time" down at least 30-40% as well. This seems to also really help with room buildup and mud. I then add in either Miracle, or VI Suite Pro Hybrid Reverb. I haven't gotten my Bricasti back into the mix since I built my new DAW but will soon and will try that combo with MIR Pro after I learn to tame the dam thing on its own.

I have always been/felt like I am "right there, oh so close" to getting what I am trying to achieve with this tool but never seem to put the entire combination together and actually achieve it. I think the time has come for me to literally smash my face into this application and go all out. Load up my VSL Instruments, put my SPAT preset on them and just sit there tirelessly with MIR Pro until I can reproduce that same sound on each instrument.

I think for some of you (especially you Dietz) those microphones you offer in the program actually mean something to you. I am sure you look at the choices and think, ok so the Triple-8 Coincident will do this for me, and the Blumlein will do that for me. I look at them and go, ok, I have no idea what any of that means or how it will affect anything. I then choose one and say ok I either like it or I don't. But it doesn't go anywhere beyond that. Even though I can clearly see even more advanced controls for each microphone to change just about everything about it. It simple means nothing to me. Maybe I need to RTFM again.

I feel like the answer to what I am looking for is possibly in all of these settings but I don't connect with them. I don't get their meaning and especially their relationship to one another. With all my other programs I learn them in depth like an engineer. With this one, I have never gotten past the idea that I see it as a "plug and play go and it sounds good" application. It seems so counterintuitive to what it visually provides to have to work so hard and understand so much to get it to provide desired results. I feel like I have no problems investing hard long time learning these tools except this one. I always envisioned it being my "simple button" and it's just not that at all. I have to get past this feeling.

That's not a complaint by the way about the application. It would be so limiting and cause complaints on the other side if you didn't provide all that lol. Just a mental block I have to get over in terms of this application no matter how simple it looks, I will have to be an engineer to make it work how I need it and do "whatever makes it sound good" even if that means you wouldn't do this in real life on a stage.

I believe you that great people are using the tool. I also believe that Alan probably understands microphones and many of the things in this tool that to me are absolutely deer in headlights .

I learned everything about SPAT, I can learn everything about this tool. Don't give up on me . I am sure I will need more pep talks and guidance to get to where I need to be .


----------



## Dietz (Jul 19, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> turn down the "Reverberation Time" down at least 30-40% as well


In this case I would rather suggest to change the Venue to a location that fits your needs better as a first step, because this seems to be quite drastic.


----------



## maestro2be (Jul 19, 2020)

Dietz said:


> In this case I would rather suggest to change the Venue to a location that fits your needs better as a first step, because this seems to be quite drastic.


That's actually a part of what I have been doing. As an example, I tried to create an effect of around 8-9 seconds. I put the instrument into "BaumgartnerHoehe". I was not able to get what I was looking for in sound. I then put the instrument into Synchron Stage and then added Miracle and got exactly what I was looking for. It still makes me wonder if what I was trying to do could have been done inside MIR Pro alone.

Once I start dropping the size of the room, say into a studio sized room, I find it harder to really get it to go "back" since now the room is so little. Hence the addition of Miracle after that. I don't know if it's just that this is a great combo and how it's meant to be done, or if it's because I spent almost 3 months using Miracle as my "touch up" reverb on every instrument in my 1500 track template that I am so good at using it now. I can get what I am looking for in almost seconds with that tool.

For what it's worth, I am finding the Synchron Room quickly becoming my favorite room of them all.


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Jul 19, 2020)

To move something back: Have you tried EQ+faders? I’d try that before anything else “fancy” that can introduce more audio artifacts (yes, EQ can as well depending on which one and how it’s used). Roll off around 150-200 and up in the high frequencies as well to suit.

Additionally/instead, increase early reflections on an instrument in a reverb.


----------



## maestro2be (Jul 19, 2020)

vitocorleone123 said:


> To move something back: Have you tried EQ+faders? I’d try that before anything else “fancy” that can introduce more audio artifacts (yes, EQ can as well depending on which one and how it’s used). Roll off around 150-200 and up in the high frequencies as well to suit.
> 
> Additionally/instead, increase early reflections on an instrument in a reverb.


I haven't tried this yet actually. It's one technique that I have avoided due to having all of these "placement tools". Perhaps it's something I need to also invest time into. I am going to see if I can find any good tutorials for doing that method.

Thanks


----------



## ryst (Jul 20, 2020)

I like Spat for a lot of things but I've actually found Dear VR Pro to me more useful in some cases for me. I just finished scoring, sound designing and mixing a short film and there are scenes where things are going on behind the camera (_dialog and fx_) or in another room and I'm able to dial in a more realistic tone of certain foley/dialog using Dear VR Pro. But for music, Spat is pretty great.


----------



## maestro2be (Jul 20, 2020)

ryst said:


> I like Spat for a lot of things but I've actually found Dear VR Pro to me more useful in some cases for me. I just finished scoring, sound designing and mixing a short film and there are scenes where things are going on behind the camera (_dialog and fx_) or in another room and I'm able to dial in a more realistic tone of certain foley/dialog using Dear VR Pro. But for music, Spat is pretty great.


Can you automate movements without pops and clicks in Dear VR Pro?


----------



## labornvain (Jul 20, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> Can you automate movements without pops and clicks in Dear VR Pro?


It runs smooth as butter on my fairly mediocre computer.

For fun I did a little test with about 30 live piano tracks with automated movement on each and I had to increase the buffer size to 256. So who knows, mileage may vary.


----------



## maestro2be (Jul 20, 2020)

labornvain said:


> It runs smooth as butter on my fairly mediocre computer.
> 
> For fun I did a little test with about 30 live piano tracks with automated movement on each and I had to increase the buffer size to 256. So who knows, mileage may vary.


That's excellent. Are you able to run 1 instance and put an entire section inside of it and then output to a single stereo output? Such as 1 for strings, 1 for woodwinds etc. and send the instruments to their own input respectively within that 1 single instance? Then send the whole mix out to a single stereo output?

Or do you have to run 1 per instrument/track?


----------



## labornvain (Jul 20, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> That's excellent. Are you able to run 1 instance and put an entire section inside of it and then output to a single stereo output? Such as 1 for strings, 1 for woodwinds etc. and send the instruments to their own input respectively within that 1 single instance? Then send the whole mix out to a single stereo output?
> 
> Or do you have to run 1 per instrument/track?


Yes. But to do that, send multiple instruments to a single instance, you would either need to set it up as a send effect or insert it on a group bus.


----------



## maestro2be (Jul 20, 2020)

labornvain said:


> Yes. But to do that, send multiple instruments to a single instance, you would either need to set it up as a send effect or insert it on a group bus.


That's exactly how I would want to use it. Any idea how many channels of input it can take per instance?

This is sounding like a real possible option at the moment. I read the manual but maybe missed it as it never specified how many inputs it would accept.
Thanks!


----------



## ryst (Jul 22, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> That's exactly how I would want to use it. Any idea how many channels of input it can take per instance?
> 
> This is sounding like a real possible option at the moment. I read the manual but maybe missed it as it never specified how many inputs it would accept.
> Thanks!



I never full figured out how to do a bunch of inputs into Spat at once. I use Pro Tools but I end up using a stereo instance per mono or stereo track I need to use Spat with. I'll check Dear VR Pro to see if I can figure that out as well.


----------

