# Ok, Vital is free/inexpensive, but...



## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

...is good enough for cinematic sound design? Does it sound good, especially the filters section?
I'm trying it, but it seems a new version of Serum with a vast EDM fanbase and vast popularity because is "free".
Let me know your thoughts!


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## Crowe (Apr 15, 2022)

Your observations are, subjectively, spot on. However...

Serum is also very suitable for cinematic sound design. Vital isn't any less good, just a little different. The filters are a matter of taste, as they always are.

This is a pretty difficult question to answer. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Your observations are, subjectively, spot on. However...
> 
> Serum is also very suitable for cinematic sound design. Vital isn't any less good, just a little different. The filters are a matter of taste, as they always are.
> 
> This is a pretty difficult question to answer. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.


Thank you Crowe, I agree with you 100%. I'm pretty sure that any synth can do anything in terms of OSC -> FILTER -> ENV. So I can do EDM with Zebra and cinematic sounds with Vital.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 15, 2022)

I use Vital occasionally, just for presets so far. It has some amazing sounds for layering with sample libraries and subtle augmentation.i haven't used it 'in anger', so to speak, as I have other tools I'm more comfortable with right now.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 15, 2022)

Yes. Why not?

If you've got Serum, it may well seem a bit redundant. But it's a perfectly good synth. One thing it's missing that would be handy for underscore pulses is the ability to modulate LFO points that Serum has (ie ride the mod wheel to make a regular pulse sharper, softer etc). Wavetable editing is better in Serum for the most part but Vital has some reasonable tools.

You've got some random modulators in there that are handy that offer more control over the noise source compared to the chaos modulators in Serum.

As Crowe says, filter are a matter of taste. I feel they suffer a bit from some intermodulation distortion at high resonance at higher frequencies but there is a fair selection in there and it's handy to have something that's a little more grainy at high resonance (for those rare occasions where it's useful) compared to the more whistly quality of some other synths.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> Yes. Why not?
> 
> If you've got Serum, it may well seem a bit redundant. But it's a perfectly good synth. One thing it's missing that would be handy for underscore pulses is the ability to modulate LFO points that Serum has (ie ride the mod wheel to make a regular pulse sharper, softer etc). Wavetable editing is better in Serum for the most part but Vital has some reasonable tools.
> 
> ...


For me, the real plus in Vital is the third OSC and a second filter compared to Serum, so only "utilities". But in terms of sound quality, why Dune and Zebra, for example, are recognized as "very good sounding synth without any doubt" and Serum/Vital sounds is a subjective taste?


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## Crowe (Apr 15, 2022)

arcy said:


> For me, the real plus in Vital is the third OSC and a second filter compared to Serum, so only "utilities". But in terms of sound quality, why Dune and Zebra, for example, are recognized as "very good sounding synth without any doubt" and Serum/Vital sounds is a subjective taste?


I think this is a misrepresentation of what is actually said when these things are discussed.

- Filters are *always* a matter of taste. There's many kinds, and I've heard people criticize brilliant synths (hello Sequential) because they don't like a certain filter implementation.
- The question was between Serum and Vital, which are two similar synths. Which one you prefer is a matter of subjective taste.
- Dune and Zebra are well known as synths that are excellent for cinematic sound design, simply by virtue of their workflows and marketing. Zebra is synonymous with Hans Zimmer so that mental link almost explains itself. They are recognized as very good sounding synths.
Serum and Vital are known as EDM synths. They are also recognized as very good sounding synths. They're just not the first synths one thinks of when talking about cinematic music (although I think that is kinda wrong with how well suited they are for modern trailer sound design).

The thing is that we're comparing what many see as Apples to Oranges, but secretly they're all different kinds of bananas. And delicious.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

Crowe said:


> There's many kinds, and I've heard people criticize brilliant synths because they don't like a certain filter implementation.


cough...cough....MSoundFactory...cough...



Crowe said:


> Zebra is synonymous with Hans Zimmer so that mental link almost explains itself. They are recognized as very good sounding synths.


Absolutely TRUE.


Crowe said:


> but secretly they're all different kinds of bananas. And delicious.


Yes, this is a good point of view.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 15, 2022)

arcy said:


> For me, the real plus in Vital is the third OSC and a second filter compared to Serum, so only "utilities". But in terms of sound quality, why Dune and Zebra, for example, are recognized as "very good sounding synth without any doubt" and Serum/Vital sounds is a subjective taste?


I don't think I expressed any value judgement on the filters in Dune or Zebra. I'd make the same point for them, so extrapolating a single (or pair) of statements to a general consensus is a bit odd, frankly. I'm sure you can find any number people online who will say each of those has sucky/has fantastic filters. Before ZebraHZ, it was quite a common complaint.

I'm not sure what you want to convince yourself of. If you like Vital, use it. If not, don't.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> I'm not sure what you want to convince yourself of. If you like Vital, use it. If not, don't.


Sorry, some concepts in Italian sound different than in English and the statements can seem a little bit confusing  I don't want to convince myself, I would like to compare my sensations using Vital with those who have used it for a while and can give me more data to reach a final judgement.


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## Crowe (Apr 15, 2022)

Do you own Serum? I've paid good money for Serum so no matter how free Vital is, I'm going to use it till my PC can not longer support it. If not, Vital is free and so similar that it's almost not worth it to buy Serum anymore. Also your extra OSC and Filter argument should make it an easy choice in that case.

EDIT: There is one more considerable: If you're a preset-junkie, go with Serum. There's an almost limitless amount of presets on the market. If you're going to design sounds yourself... It doesn't matter.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Do you own Serum? I've paid good money for Serum so no matter how free Vital is, I'm going to use it till my PC can not longer support it. If not, Vital is free and so similar that it's almost not worth it to buy Serum anymore. Also your extra OSC and Filter argument should make it an easy choice in that case.
> 
> EDIT: There is one more considerable: If you're a preset-junkie, go with Serum. There's an almost limitless amount of presets on the market. If you're going to design sounds yourself... It doesn't matter.


No I use Serum a little bit with a Splice subscription. I'm a sound designer, no presets. I create all sounds.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2022)

What's up with your generalizations about everyone liking Zebra and Dune or a lot of people (cough) disliking MSF’s filters?

I don’t think that is true at all? I participate in most synth threads on this forum and these things never come up. Crowe’s analysis is spot on: Zebra and Dune are well known synths. They sound good. But I don’t think you’ll find a lot of VI-C support for the notion that MSF is in some “lesser” league, or for the notion that there are leagues in the first place?

Pick the synths that sound good to you and offer a workflow that works. For you. Vital is fine by the way in all of those respects. But I personally don’t think there is a whole lot of use for these kind of “rankings”. Oh - and just to make a point haha: Melda’s filters are just fine, nothing wrong with them. (cough).


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## Crowe (Apr 15, 2022)

arcy said:


> No I use Serum a little bit with a Splice subscription. I'm a sound designer, no presets. I create all sounds.


Well.. Just use them side by side for a bit.

I don't think you should let the Sunk Cost fallacy dictate what you do here (unless you're 2 payments away from ownership, in which case...).

But yeah, I know Serum like the back of my hand so Vital can never its place for me. But that preference is not about the sound, the differences of which I find negligible.


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## TomislavEP (Apr 15, 2022)

Had I not owned Komplete, Vital would probably be on the top of my list of free synth VI's. I' have briefly tried it on several occasions and quite like its layout and simplicity, especially when in comparison to Surge. In addition to free synths from u-he and the synth sounds available in Spitfire Labs and on Pianobook, this might be more than a decent free synth toolkit.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> What's up with your generalizations about everyone liking Zebra and Dune or a lot of people (cough) disliking MSF’s filters?
> 
> I don’t think that is true at all? I participate in most synth threads on this forum and these things never come up. Crowe’s analysis is spot on: Zebra and Dune are well known synths. They sound good. But I don’t think you’ll find a lot of VI-C support for the notion that MSF is in some “lesser” league, or for the notion that there are leagues in the first place?
> 
> Pick the synths that sound good to you and offer a workflow that works. For you. Vital is fine by the way in all of those respects. But I personally don’t think there is a whole lot of use for these kind of “rankings”. Oh - and just to make a point haha: Melda’s filters are just fine, nothing wrong with them. (cough).


Maybe in VI-C not, but in all the web and other forums (like KVR) yes. So I would like to know the thoughts of VI-C about more technical sound/DPS than a simple "matter of taste" statement that makes all subjective. Synths are software, software is math and math is not subjective, in fact, Zebra and Dune are notorious for their good sounding OSC and filters because of the good development behind them, even in VI-C. 

But other than that, my answer was: according to your experience, can Vital be a good contender for sound design and cinematic sounds like other good sounding synths? I don't have all synth for trying and do comparison, maybe someone using Vital as a regular basis synth and can give me solid informations about it.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2022)

Sorry to break it to you: but music isn’t math. It’s soul. 

If KVR and all of the web (except VI-C) hate on a synth for mathematical reasons, I wish them good luck 😂


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2022)

On topic, FWIW: Vital is absolutely capable of making fine cinematic sounds. But hey, it's free! Try it and find out if that’s also true according to your own taste, or whatever objective criteria you may have that I am unaware of.


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## makimakimusic (Apr 15, 2022)

I think it depends on how you use it (Easy answer ? Maybe). 
Personally I'm using the Sine bass from Vital in a lot of my work. It works on a lot of situation. Obviously, it's not the more complex sound design tool but being able to load that kind of sound for free is more than welcome. I can't live without it for now. But I've never push the Vital very far to be honest.
When it free, after all, you can't complain.
As doctoremmet says : it's free, so just try it and if it works, the better.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Sorry to break it to you: but music isn’t math. It’s soul.
> 
> If KVR and all of the web (except VI-C) hate on a synth for mathematical reasons, I wish them good luck 😂


Ok thanks 
Anyway, I have different opinions. Software is math and software is not music. I can make music with software, for sure, but software can be well developed or not. Even real instruments could sound bad or good according to materials quality (a guitar with poor quality woods can't sound better than a good quality one), but if all is subjective and is a matter of taste why do forums exist?? So, 80% of the forum threads should be closed. If anyone could give me solid and technical information about a synth software tried before me, for me, it's ok, no problem. I will find by myself and than make a private decision


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2022)

Of course that’s true. 

But the way humans perceive sound and music is 100% personal and subjective. I think I have tried to help you find some information on synthesis this past week, but shall refrain from further participation in your threads. It seems my view on synths and yours are incompatible. Academically speaking I’d be interested in what constitutes “good sound” in terms of a mathematical formula. One that is objectively true for all of human perception. But that’s just me arguing, which is ultimately pointless. I have V8P demos to make hehe. Cheers!

Oh, forums exist because of subjectivity. If there was an objective list of mathematically proven best synths, we could just have published that and be done with the discourse 

Proceed! ❤️


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 15, 2022)

Would anyone like a PowerPoint presentation on the nature of objectivity? Or we could just listen to some Led Zeppelin.



Still, Vital, it's pretty good. But I don't know enough about the filter programming to give a view on that.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Of course that’s true.
> 
> But the way humans perceive sound and music is 100% personal and subjective. I think I have tried to help you find some information on synthesis this past week, but shall refrain from further participation in your threads. It seems my view on synths and yours are incompatible. Academically speaking I’d be interested in what constitutes “good sound” in terms of a mathematical formula. One that is objectively true for all of human perception. But that’s just me arguing, which is ultimately pointless. I have V8P demos to make hehe. Cheers!
> 
> ...


Ok, starting from now I will create the perfect synth and share it with you! Zebra? Dune? Vital...ppfff....toys! 
Jokes apart, thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## doctoremmet (Apr 15, 2022)

I’m a punk rocker at heart Arcy. I love music, even when it’s made on a crappy bass guitar with one string. I also voluntarily paid $40 for a sample of a bloody ZX Spectrum, which is a Zilog Z80 8 bit chip and a 1 bit soundchip and I can tell from my personal 1982 experiences that objectively speaking and likely mathematically proven, the thing came with horrible software. Yet, I love the sounds of it. 

Thanks for the Led Zep, Bee! Here are some 8 bit SID chips and then I’ll be on my way to my Xsample Woodwinds. Have a nice Easter weekend y’all.


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## Crowe (Apr 15, 2022)

If you come to a decision, please share your thoughts as well. Such discussion is valuable to future Googly-eyed musicians wondering the same thing.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 15, 2022)

arcy said:


> Maybe in VI-C not, but in all the web and other forums (like KVR) yes. So I would like to know the thoughts of VI-C about more technical sound/DPS than a simple "matter of taste" statement that makes all subjective. Synths are software, software is math and math is not subjective, in fact, Zebra and Dune are notorious for their good sounding OSC and filters because of the good development behind them, even in VI-C.


So, you've taken a bunch of subjective assessments and turned them into hard mathematical facts.

The filters people tend to get starry-eyed over are the emulations, which are things like ladder filters. I hate to have to break it to you, but a lot of subjective hunch and guesswork went into the design of those filters. People are still puzzling over why the TB-303's structure is the way it is and how it affects the sound (other than it was probably fairly cheap to do it that way and the engineers liked how it sounded even if it got a bit weird at the extremes for something meant to model a bass guitar). The software emulations attempt to mimic that - pretty well overall - and for the extreme settings the Roland engineers didn't anticipate. But they are themselves taking shortcuts based on subjective assessments of the sound because if they did it by sticking to the maths implied by the circuit layout, you'd be lucky to get one note every ten seconds out of the thing. (Even then, there is some level of choice in which SPICE models you choose to model the internal structure though you don't really need some all-singing, all-dancing electron-transport model for a diode that dates back to the 70s.)

And there are many subjective choices in determining which algorithm you are going to use to achieve something mathematically, no matter what the field is.

I'm afraid your premise is built on sand.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> So, you've taken a bunch of subjective assessments and turned them into hard mathematical facts.
> 
> The filters people tend to get starry-eyed over are the emulations, which are things like ladder filters. I hate to have to break it to you, but a lot of subjective hunch and guesswork went into the design of those filters. People are still puzzling over why the TB-303's structure is the way it is and how it affects the sound (other than it was probably fairly cheap to do it that way and the engineers liked how it sounded even if it got a bit weird at the extremes for something meant to model a bass guitar). The software emulations attempt to mimic that - pretty well overall - and for the extreme settings the Roland engineers didn't anticipate. But they are themselves taking shortcuts based on subjective assessments of the sound because if they did it by sticking to the maths implied by the circuit layout, you'd be lucky to get one note every ten seconds out of the thing. (Even then, there is some level of choice in which SPICE models you choose to model the internal structure though you don't really need some all-singing, all-dancing electron-transport model for a diode that dates back to the 70s.)
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts gamma-ut. So, why the up-mentioned synths (Dune, Zebra) are reasonably recognized as good-sounding synths? I'm asking that not for a polemic but for growing my music culture.


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## arcy (Apr 15, 2022)

Crowe said:


> If you come to a decision, please share your thoughts as well. Such discussion is valuable to future Googly-eyed musicians wondering the same thing.


For sure! I'm testing a lot these days. I created a project in which every track is a different soft synth (demo and not). After my test, I share with you my impressions. In the meantime, if you have more information about how you use Vital in a contest of sound design and film music and which positive/negative points you find I will be happy to hear.


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## MartinH. (Apr 15, 2022)

arcy said:


> Synths are software, software is math and math is not subjective


Math is objective, but you're essentially asking "Which mathematical formula sounds best?".
I think vital is great, but I'm not the biggest fan of "the wavetable sound" of such synths, if there even is such a thing. Ultimately I think workflow trumps sound.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 15, 2022)

arcy said:


> So, why the up-mentioned synths (Dune, Zebra) are reasonably recognized as good-sounding synths?


It's your assertion so I'm not sure why I need to justify it. However, I don't think anything I've written implies they won't be "good-sounding", particularly if you assume that the people designing and testing those synths have a subjective assessment of how the instruments respond that corresponds with what people buying and using them expect.


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## brek (Apr 15, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> One thing it's missing that would be handy for underscore pulses is the ability to modulate LFO points that Serum has (ie ride the mod wheel to make a regular pulse sharper, softer etc).



Having not used Serum very much, not sure if this is what you are describing, but you can use the modwheel to modulate the amount of modulation applied by the LFO.

So create two LFOs, one sharp and one full, then set the modwheel to "crossfade" between them:

"Full" LFO is fully active when modwheel = 127, inactive when modwheel = 0.
"Sharp" LFO is fully active when modwheel = 0, inactive when modwheel = 127.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 15, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Sorry to break it to you: but music isn’t math. It’s soul.


Are you sure about that?


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 15, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Math is objective, but you're essentially asking "Which mathematical formula sounds best?".


The one made by the guy who combines math and soul without telling anybody how he did it. Forgot his name…started with a number.


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## gamma-ut (Apr 15, 2022)

brek said:


> Having not used Serum very much, not sure if this is what you are describing, but you can use the modwheel to modulate the amount of modulation applied by the LFO.
> 
> So create two LFOs, one sharp and one full, then set the modwheel to "crossfade" between them:
> 
> ...


In Serum you can modulate individual control points in the LFO so that you can move it back and forth in time or adjust its amplitude relative to the other control points - you have to pick an "LFO Bus" as source and then give it a source. You then modify the control amplitude etc in the mod matrix window. It's one of those "oh, that's neat" features of Serum.

You probably don't want to modulate too many of the points but it's pretty effective with just one or two in a pulse-type or repeating patch. You can, for example, go from a repeating pluck to a reverse pluck by just moving the modwheel or with aftertouch, for example.

You can indeed often do similar things with a crossfade but it's not the same thing I'm describing. For example, I can't think of a way of doing the pluck<->reverse pluck cleanly with a crossfade.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 15, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> I love music, even when it’s made on a crappy bass guitar with one string.


I see you are a fellow man of refined taste who enjoys the occasional djenting spree.


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## cel4145 (Apr 15, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Of course that’s true.
> 
> But the way humans perceive sound and music is 100% personal and subjective. I think I have tried to help you find some information on synthesis this past week, but shall refrain from further participation in your threads. It seems my view on synths and yours are incompatible. Academically speaking I’d be interested in what constitutes “good sound” in terms of a mathematical formula. One that is objectively true for all of human perception. But that’s just me arguing, which is ultimately pointless. I have V8P demos to make hehe. Cheers!
> 
> ...


I don't think it's useful to declare that sound and music perception is "100% personal and subjective."

Much like light exhibits behavior as a wave and a particle, music is best understood from both mathematical/scientific and aesthetic frames. Much as when a physicist insists that light is only a particle (or wave), their understanding of light's behavior is incomplete, so would be the notion that music is not math provide an incomplete understanding of music.

And so yes. We can partially evaluate a soft synth's ability to produce music by its programming that would, in turn, provide insight into the aesthetic experience of listening to it. But yes. At the same time, it is incomplete to only evaluate the synthesizer using math and objective measures. Subjective evaluation must be part of the process.


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## Double Helix (Apr 15, 2022)

doctoremmet said:


> Oh, forums exist because of subjectivity.


Precisely this
(beat me to it. . .)


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## nate11 (Apr 15, 2022)

Two pages and nobody has said what is well known... that Pigments 3 smokes them both Serum and Vital. 🤣


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## cel4145 (Apr 15, 2022)

nate11 said:


> Two pages and nobody has said what is well known... that Pigments 3 smokes both serum and vital. 🤣



The gauntlet has been thrown down! 😄

Pigments is on sale for $100 right now.

So someone can get Vital Pro with all the presets and Pigments for the price of Serum. Seems like a no-brainer!


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 15, 2022)

cel4145 said:


> I don't think it's useful to declare that sound and music perception is "100% personal and subjective."





cel4145 said:


> Much like light exhibits behavior as a wave and a particle, music is best understood from both mathematical/scientific and aesthetic frames. Much as when a physicist insists that light is only a particle (or wave), their understanding of light's behavior is incomplete, so would be the notion that music is not math provide an incomplete understanding of music.





cel4145 said:


> And so yes. We can partially evaluate a soft synth's ability to produce music by its programming that would, in turn, provide insight into the aesthetic experience of listening to it. But yes. At the same time, it is incomplete to only evaluate the synthesizer using math and objective measures. Subjective evaluation must be part of the process.



If a synth doesn’t give you the chills, then its just not for you, even if it has all options that you paid for (or recieved free as with Vital). Its not bad just because its free (you spoiled aristocrats).

Same with any other instruments, or something that has the potential to house
part of yourself in it.

Its art and free from rules until you set them. Hear your art being in tune with only that one filter? Why not. 
But be careful, the more individual you become, the less people will understand it. 
Maybe the math guy in your family will, but thats handling Lava.

What makes the difference of a really good sounding instrument and a mediocre one is invested skill, effort, and coffee (or coughing medicine back then).

If a good programmer (an Artist too) achieves to create a mastery signature in his work, its a welcome success and not just a cold recreation of an interpretation of an idea from a mathematician from 1875.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 15, 2022)

nate11 said:


> Two pages and nobody has said what is well known... that Pigments 3 smokes them both Serum and Vital. 🤣


Hell no. Vital is bad because its free. Those people who start with it as their fist synth to learn will miss all the lowend because of it being EDMish. Pigments is also made by Demons which want to make you see easier what your random early modulation does graphically, when you should have read some books about math instead. I hate this Popcorn Approach of the high art of Synthesis.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 15, 2022)

You're all missing the only true measure of worth - likes and follows on social media. If no-one watches you stream your life, were you ever even truly alive?

Like and subscribe!


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 15, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> You're all missing the only true measure of worth - likes and follows on social media. If no-one watches you stream your life, were you ever even truly alive?
> 
> Like and subscribe!


Everyone is born with a talent. But not everyone is able to hear the difference between a free Synth and one with a subscription model.
The times when computer mice were emitting a soft clicking sound as a last rebellious act for a like are long gone. Now its just a silent display touch of hairless hollowness.

Btw. I surely noticed we trade Likes, like its a sport, but it means we notice each other. And if that has no meaning at all, i may finally be ready for social media.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 15, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Everyone is born with a talent. But not everyone is able to hear the difference between a free Synth and one with a subscription model.
> The times when computer mice were emitting a soft clicking sound as a last rebellious act for a like are long gone. Now its just a silent display touch of hairless hollowness.
> 
> Btw. I surely noticed we trade Likes, like its a sport, but it means we notice each other. And if that has no meaning at all, i may finally be ready for social media.



I think you'll be okay without social media for a bit longer!

I'm often glad I got to do my major learning before the Internet. I'm even more glad that my youth predates social media!


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## kgdrum (Apr 15, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I think you'll be okay without social media for a bit longer!
> 
> I'm often glad I got to do my major learning before the Internet. I'm even more glad that my youth predates social media!





I must resist,I must resist,I must resist ……………………


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 15, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> I must resist,I must resist,I must resist ……………………


No-one wants to see me on their phone. I'm more of a widescreen experience. With Ennio Morricone music.


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## kgdrum (Apr 15, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> No-one wants to see me on their phone. I'm more of a widescreen experience. With Ennio Morricone music.




Why are you trying to bait me into commenting when I’m uncharacteristically trying to behave?


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 15, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> Why are you trying to bait me into commenting when I’m uncharacteristically trying to behave?


Goodnight Mr. Drum. I have nighttime things to be doing now. You know, a nice murder book and some cocoa.


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## kgdrum (Apr 15, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> Goodnight Mr. Drum. I have nighttime things to be doing now. You know, a nice murder book and some cocoa.




I think you’re way past 2nd hand accounts from a “book” on the artistry of a well executed murder……sweet dreams.
*edit* Wait a second old lady it’s 10:00 PM on a Friday night and you’re preparing for dreams about torture,mayhem,nuns etc……in no particular order.
That’s early afternoon in my reality wtf!


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## SupremeFist (Apr 15, 2022)

nate11 said:


> Two pages and nobody has said what is well known... that Pigments 3 smokes them both Serum and Vital. 🤣


Speaking purely about synths that are good for 'cinematic" (which I'm assuming means "sits well in a hybrid mix" and "can do filmic-sounding stuff"), I demo'd Vital when I already had Zebra & Diva & Knifonium and was like "meh", but then I demo'd Pigments and thought "ok this really adds something to what I can do" and bought it.


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## Trash Panda (Apr 15, 2022)

Bee_Abney said:


> I think you'll be okay without social media for a bit longer!
> 
> I'm often glad I got to do my major learning before the Internet. I'm even more glad that my youth predates social media!


Whatever you do, don’t tell him that forums are a form of social media.


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## Bee_Abney (Apr 15, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Whatever you do, don’t tell him that forums are a form of social media.


Shh! Shut yer 'ole!


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## Sirocco (Apr 15, 2022)

I don´t know more than basic things about manage soft synths but love them since analog era and the first digitals..., and Serum is obviously glued to EDM and so on, but i found presets for many things, yes, i like presets to see, play, start from something and learn, and after many years many of the more famous programmers and sound designer seems to be far away from Serum, but lately are appearing some different libraries with more specific content that are not EDM etc...

I still haven´t but the list of people that make the pack in the photo are just, and almost, all the best i´ll choose for cinematics. And i think they are making more voumes with leads, seq, etc...
So i thinks that many years after debut, Serum is a great synth, for me is enough stable to more or less get what i want when i tried to make my own sounds or modified what i have, presets or whatever.

I miss here Tom Wolfe but hearing the prests i´m pretty sure that Serum goes beyond than the average, by far. And cinematics?? for sure, not the holy grail but lots of respect.






Salute!


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 15, 2022)

Trash Panda said:


> Whatever you do, don’t tell him that forums are a form of social media.


Its the entry drug right? I have strange new urges now.


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## cel4145 (Apr 15, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> ... Its not bad just because its free (you spoiled aristocrats).



Funny thing is, they may actually hear it that way. 

Harman did a study where they had listeners rate the sound quality of speakers. Listeners rated them where they could see the speakers. And then got to rate them again when they couldn't. 

Not surprisingly, the speakers that were known to be more expensive rated higher by some people when they could see them.

So yeah. Some of these people may actually hear Vital to be worse because they know it's free.


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## MartinH. (Apr 15, 2022)

cel4145 said:


> Funny thing is, they may actually hear it that way.
> 
> Harman did a study where they had listeners rate the sound quality of speakers. Listeners rated them where they could see the speakers. And then got to rate them again when they couldn't.
> 
> ...



Expensive plugins sound a little warmer and the hole in your wallet makes the reverb tails a little longer. But only if it's a one time payment kind of license, with the subscription-only plugins the tone tends to get quite harsh.


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## cel4145 (Apr 15, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Expensive plugins sound a little warmer and the hole in your wallet makes the reverb tails a little longer. But only if it's a one time payment kind of license, with the subscription-only plugins the tone tends to get quite harsh.


This suggests that if an artist started advertising they only use expensive plugins, some people might like their music better!


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## CATDAD (Apr 15, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> Expensive plugins sound a little warmer and the hole in your wallet makes the reverb tails a little longer. But only if it's a one time payment kind of license, with the subscription-only plugins the tone tends to get quite harsh.


Actually, subscription plugins sound better with age... Something to do with digital burn-in to soften the initially harsh aliasing. As coincidence would have it, they also continue to cost more money over time, but it's worth it!


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## psy dive (Apr 15, 2022)

gamma-ut said:


> You can indeed often do similar things with a crossfade but it's not the same thing I'm describing. For example, I can't think of a way of doing the pluck<->reverse pluck cleanly with a crossfade.


Ackchyually.. it is possible to modulate the envelopes or the lfo-smooth function within Vital. Not as complex as individual points on a LFO but it could get you from plucks to reverse plucks.


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 15, 2022)

nate11 said:


> Two pages and nobody has said what is well known... that Pigments 3 smokes them both Serum and Vital. 🤣


Pigments is very… pretty. And that’s about the best I can say about it!


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## b_elliott (Apr 15, 2022)

arcy said:


> ...is good enough for cinematic sound design? Does it sound good, especially the filters section?
> I'm trying it, but it seems a new version of Serum with a vast EDM fanbase and vast popularity because is "free".
> Let me know your thoughts!


You might do a Youtube search for _Databroth, Vital_. He has several playthroughs 1 - 2 hours long exploring the extent of Vital.

Even if you threw one of his videos on for a listen while getting on with your life, you will likely hear what this synth can do in experienced hands.

FWIW, you could also check out Groove3's tutorial on Vital -- about 3 hours of walkthrough re its 3 osc, wavetables, sampler functions, plus all the gory details on its modulation assets -- it goes on for hours; which likely explains why Databroth continues to do videos featuring this particular synth. 

Interestingly, Groove3 covers Vital but nothing so far on Surge or Odin2 (at least at the time of posting). EDIT: Good news: G3 has a series on the Pendulate freebie.

Cheers, Bill


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## KEM (Apr 15, 2022)

There’s no such thing as having too many synths


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## gamma-ut (Apr 16, 2022)

psy dive said:


> Ackchyually.. it is possible to modulate the envelopes or the lfo-smooth function within Vital. Not as complex as individual points on a LFO but it could get you from plucks to reverse plucks.


I confess I hadn't come across the LFO smoothing function until now. I was having a look at the LFO phase-shift control and thinking there might be a way to do with a combination of phase-shift and messing with the LFO trigger modes. But it's probably just more expedient to play in the notes or sequence them and work on the envelopes directly for that particular stunt. I'm not religious about these things: there's usually more than one way to do it.


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## Whywhy (Apr 16, 2022)

About Vital's classic filters: gain staging is important. After some quick experimentation, I like how they sound with one osc, a saw or a square, at approximately 50% or less of gain. 
Ps: Vital has a lot of, underrated, stereo and unison options...


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## gamma-ut (Apr 16, 2022)

Whywhy said:


> About Vital's classic filters: gain staging is important. After some quick experimentation, I like how they sound with one osc, a saw or a square, at approximately 50% or less of gain.
> Ps: Vital has a lot of, underrated, stereo and unison options...


I'd missed that. Having tried it, I noticed how the basic analogue filter goes into self oscillation quite easily at low input gain and then gets knocked out as the oscillator gain is increased. The difference in filter quality doesn't seem quite as stark as it is on Waldorf's Largo. But that's another one where people often moan about the filters, and that's another synth where the default osc gain tends to overload the filter pretty easily.


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 16, 2022)

And then add in some random stereo LFO on the filter (or voice spread in unison, etc.) over 8 or so bars.


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## Pier (Apr 16, 2022)

Vital is awesome and yeah it would totally work for cinematic stuff. I mean, the cinematic genre is so broad. Why would it not?

Does Vital sound analog? Not even close but there are no ancient stone tablets that say that one should only use analog sounding synths in the cinematic genre.

There are cases where the last thing you want are classic analog sounds. For instance listen to the Cyberpunk 2077 soundtrack. Plenty of wavetables with distortions, bitcrushers, downsampling, timestretching, and whatnot.


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## vitocorleone123 (Apr 16, 2022)

I actually find Vital sounds as "analog" as many (not all!) other virtual analogs and even software emulations - depending on how you construct your sounds.


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## CATDAD (Apr 16, 2022)

Yeah, plenty can be done to make a patch sound “lively” with even the stiffest oscillators/filters as long as it also has plenty of modulation options!


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Apr 17, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I actually find Vital sounds as "analog" as many (not all!) other virtual analogs and even software emulations - depending on how you construct your sounds.


Just remember that one Synth that has a 
noticable Characteristic to it, can become repetitive if you overuse that characteristic. One Synth alone may (and will) not be enough to have that endless variety. Zebra for example can be heard as pretty tame sounding so its easier (faster) to have another option at hand that cuts through a mix with less effort.

Sometimes its really suprising to recreate a patch from a Synth to another and noticing that it sounds even better there or is more useful in your current mix.

Cinematic stuff has so much dynamics going on just everywhere, that the priorities are everywhere else, but not on critical synth attributes. 

Its not the ultimate answer to look for a true analogue sound when many hardware synths on the market are classified as „thin/cold/bland/boring/dead/cheap“ and lack anything that is associated with the highly acclaimed „analogue musicality“. 
Its just the signature tone of the big successful brands that people are used to, and that should be in the Arsenal, but a quirky screaming, not so polished box will find its use too. If unstable circuitry and tuning is leading to that soul we all adore, its worth trying those easier affordable things that are even more unperfect. Ugh, now im confusing myself.


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## creativeforge (Jun 21, 2022)

@Crowe : "If you come to a decision, please share your thoughts as well. Such discussion is valuable to future Googly-eyed musicians wondering the same thing."

@arcy : Googly-eyed musician here, and wondering. Exploring GAS...


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## arcy (Jun 21, 2022)

Hi all! I decided to stay with Zebra. It offers me more sonic possibilities and I like the overall sound most.


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## creativeforge (Jun 21, 2022)

arcy said:


> Hi all! I decided to stay with Zebra. It offers me more sonic possibilities and I like the overall sound most.


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## arcy (Jun 21, 2022)

I have to clarify that I compose orchestral/hybrid music and I use a lot of soundscapes, drones and other sounds like those, so in THIS contest Zebra suits better for me. From my point of view, Vital is a great synth with an inexpensive license that will replace Serum in many areas.


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## creativeforge (Jun 21, 2022)

arcy said:


> I have to clarify that I compose orchestral/hybrid music and I use a lot of soundscapes, drones and other sounds like those, so in THIS contest Zebra suits better for me. From my point of view, Vital is a great synth with an inexpensive license that will replace Serum in many areas.


Thank you, I'm interested in the same kinds of sonic palette. I've put off getting Zebra due to the learning curve I expect to face. It's still on my short list. And I favor presets, I was never really clear-minded about how to create sounds from scratch.


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## richmwhitfield (Jun 21, 2022)

If you prefer presets then Zebra is probably one of the better options. There are so many 'cinematic' preset packs out there for it. People like Sonic Underworld or The Unfinished, I would think, are two of the more popular designers, but there are many more producing great products as well.


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## CrystalWizard (Jun 22, 2022)

Sure, even the factory presets in Zebra are fairly amazing.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jun 27, 2022)

CrystalWizard said:


> Sure, even the factory presets in Zebra are fairly amazing.


Eh. I was completely unamazed when I did the demo. That was awhile ago, though, so maybe some amazing ones have been added since. I was far more amazed with Vital... but also not with the presets.


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## sostenuto (Jun 27, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Eh. I was completely unamazed when I did the demo. That was awhile ago, though, so maybe some amazing ones have been added since. I was far more amazed with Vital... but also not with the presets.


Continue trusting PluginGuru Livestream content _ _long ago_ _ complimenting Vital _ and indicating likely future expansion. There was some point about 'Presets' being kinda meh, especially moving to other paid Vital choices. Will Message Guru in hopes of an Update to his plans. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## vitocorleone123 (Jun 29, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> Continue trusting PluginGuru Livestream content _ _long ago_ _ complimenting Vital _ and indicating likely future expansion. There was some point about 'Presets' being kinda meh, especially moving to other paid Vital choices. Will Message Guru in hopes of an Update to his plans. 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## sostenuto (Jun 29, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


>


Galaxy called _ UNIFY ! 😦


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## Russell Anderson (Jul 5, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Eh. I was completely unamazed when I did the demo. That was awhile ago, though


I've spent probably 2 hours in Zebra in the past few days (after probably 1 hour of faffing around the past year) and it's suddenly probably my favorite synth at the moment. I'm hesitant to say much in favor of Phase Plant's workflow when Zebra gets me so far into the territory I want to be in so quickly.

A cool thing though is learning something in one synth giving you ideas for others. The infinite demo from U-he and Vital being free are generous resources. And MComb. Man, Zebra's comb filter is super cool


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## Sid Francis (Jul 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> Vital is awesome and yeah it would totally work for cinematic stuff. I mean, the cinematic genre is so broad. Why would it not?
> 
> Does Vital sound analog? Not even close but there are no ancient stone tablets that say that one should only use analog sounding synths in the cinematic genre.
> 
> There are cases where the last thing you want are classic analog sounds. For instance listen to the Cyberpunk 2077 soundtrack. Plenty of wavetables with distortions, bitcrushers, downsampling, timestretching, and whatnot.



Hey Pier

Your right. But the sound of Cyberpunkt sounds fat and meaty, powerfull and impressive. Nothing that I heard in the Vital presets: everything so "glass and electronic". I would love to like Vital because of its possiblilities but I hardly find a single usable sound in it. And I am a preset juggler (with some tweaking and personalising hre and there) ....


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 5, 2022)

Russell Anderson said:


> I've spent probably 2 hours in Zebra in the past few days (after probably 1 hour of faffing around the past year) and it's suddenly probably my favorite synth at the moment. I'm hesitant to say much in favor of Phase Plant's workflow when Zebra gets me so far into the territory I want to be in so quickly.
> 
> A cool thing though is learning something in one synth giving you ideas for others. The infinite demo from U-he and Vital being free are generous resources. And MComb. Man, Zebra's comb filter is super cool


I purchased Hive 2 instead of Zebra 2.
It also has a comb filter now. I still use Repro1 more.

But one reason for so many synths being available is because everyone likes different things. Find what works for you and go with it.


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## Pier (Jul 5, 2022)

Sid Francis said:


> Hey Pier
> 
> Your right. But the sound of Cyberpunkt sounds fat and meaty, powerfull and impressive. Nothing that I heard in the Vital presets: everything so "glass and electronic". I would love to like Vital because of its possiblilities but I hardly find a single usable sound in it. And I am a preset juggler (with some tweaking and personanlising hre and there) ....


I 100% agree the Vital presets are... not good. Personally I think it'd be a mistake to judge the synth from the presets.

That said, yeah, Vital is not the synth if you're looking for analog mojo.

As for the cyberpunk sound, I guess it's very subjective. Of course a fat driving bassline fits that kind of world, but personally I identify it more with digital glitches and that sort of stuff.

Edit:

Hare's a walkthrough of a psytrance library made by someone that knows what he's doing with Vital:



I'm definitely not a psytrance connaisseur but it sounds very convincing to me.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 5, 2022)

I definitely use/tweak presets sometimes, but, in order to find out if a synth is capable of making the sounds you want... generally the best way is to make the sounds you want yourself from scratch. The presets in Vital are very specific (I only have those that came with the $25 version) - even more so than in most other synths. Best bet is to init and build something. Maybe find a preset in another synth that gives the vibe you want and then try to recreate it in Vital.

"Cyberpunk." When I think cyberpunk, I don't think of the game, I think of 90s electro-industrial like FLA's Tactical Neural Implant. Lots of sampled instruments (eg a Pro 1 + Model D sampled bassline) and sampled sounds. But, regardless, whatever you're hearing in the game Cyberpunk or music that sounds cyberpunk, it's produced, mixed, and mastered. That process can make thin and weedy sounds seem massive.

If you want thick sounds out of the box, your best bet is a high-end analog polysynth like the Prophet 10. But, even there, you'll need to make them from scratch and apply production techniques to them.



or somewhat more modern, mind.in.a.box that are weaving a story across multiple albums - another track I adore on a phenomenal cyberpunk album



To me, glitchy, stuttering music isn't automatically "cyberpunk" - it's just glitchy music. Doesn't mean it's bad! My favorite more of that type is the band Comaduster.



Anyway, the point isn't artists, but listen to the sounds in the music. Very "produced". I don't know that I've heard a synth sound like any of those out of the box.


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## José Herring (Jul 5, 2022)

You have to pony up some $$$ to get the good presets. There's actually some good ones from Databroth and Yuli Yolo to name some people. Data's stuff leans towards just being some sounds without any real context but it's a good starting point. Yuli Yolo has actually a pretty cool aesthetic that I haven't really heard before. I sometimes just study his patches for ideas.


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## richmwhitfield (Jul 5, 2022)

I think cyberpunk has a wide-ranging style. I much prefer the more modern sounding (not 80s/90s synths and drums). People like Max Brhon, Infraction or Tenebrax.

I hope it's ok to advertise my own presets, but I made a pack for Vital with that style sort of in mind -
Futurescape. You can make your own mind up if you think they are any good or not 😂. Videos go through all the presets.


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## Pier (Jul 5, 2022)

@vitocorleone123 I reckon you must be a fan of Skinny Puppy too 

I'm actually very good friends with a band called Deus Ex Machina. They were like the Mexican Skinny Puppy in the 90s.


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## vitocorleone123 (Jul 5, 2022)

Pier said:


> @vitocorleone123 I reckon you must be a fan of Skinny Puppy too
> 
> I'm actually very good friends with a band called Deus Ex Machina. They were like the Mexican Skinny Puppy in the 90s.



The tour for Too Dark Park was intense.

Don't listen to them as much anymore (but I also like the Ohgr side project), but, yeah. When young, I was dabbling in listening to some electro-industrial on the radio without knowing what it was other than different - I remember Front242 Commando and some others, but it was the Testure 12" mix that changed my life, not quite a teen yet. That was the track that pushed me over the edge, so to speak, generally leaving any mainstream music behind (I still like The Cure, New Order, etc. and other genres, but none so much as anything resembling electro-industrial or, later, futurepop). Mindphaser sealed the deal - I listened to that album a LOT and almost wore out the cassette.

I definitely enjoy "cyber" more than "noise".


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## Sid Francis (Jul 5, 2022)

richmwhitfield said:


> I think cyberpunk has a wide-ranging style. I much prefer the more modern sounding (not 80s/90s synths and drums). People like Max Brhon, Infraction or Tenebrax.
> 
> I hope it's ok to advertise my own presets, but I made a pack for Vital with that style sort of in mind -
> Futurescape. You can make your own mind up if you think they are any good or not 😂. Videos go through all the presets.


Wow, now THATS my cup of tea. 10 seconds listening, then "buy now"  ...where did I just deposit that vital dll?? ..... Had a very short glimpse into the zebra sounds too, equally great, will be mine soon. I just have to have a eye on my expenses....20 times 10 bucks is also 200 

So Vital: here you´ll get another go...


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## Sid Francis (Jul 5, 2022)

Okay: no exageration. I just cannot test the presets  As soon as I load the next to check I cannot stop noodeling and composing  They are so much inspiring that the first 4 sounds I played made it into a loaded composition in Cubase and fit like a glove. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have been checking presets for various synths for months now and in 99% my reaction is "oh, a 16th ostinato arpeggio, how ..yaaawn... great". But these here, though often somewhat similar in nature, are exactly what fits into my actual project and needs. An inspirational kick in the ass! 

I even bought the 25$ version of Vital to let the programmer have his share from my luck.


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## Pier (Jul 5, 2022)




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## richmwhitfield (Jul 5, 2022)

Sid Francis said:


> Okay: no exageration. I just cannot test the presets  As soon as I load the next to check I cannot stop noodeling and composing  They are so much inspiring that the first 4 sounds I played made it into a loaded composition in Cubase and fit like a glove. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have been checking presets for various synths for months now and in 99% my reaction is "oh, a 16th ostinato arpeggio, how ..yaaawn... great". But these here, though often somewhat similar in nature, are exactly what fits into my actual project and needs. An inspirational kick in the ass!
> 
> I even bought the 25$ version of Vital to let the programmer have his share from my luck.


Wow, thank you for the kind words and the purchase. Really pleased you like them


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## MartinH. (Aug 24, 2022)

Pier said:


> Vital is awesome and yeah it would totally work for cinematic stuff. I mean, the cinematic genre is so broad. Why would it not?
> 
> Does Vital sound analog? Not even close but there are no ancient stone tablets that say that one should only use analog sounding synths in the cinematic genre.
> 
> There are cases where the last thing you want are classic analog sounds. For instance listen to the Cyberpunk 2077 soundtrack. Plenty of wavetables with distortions, bitcrushers, downsampling, timestretching, and whatnot.




I'm trying to a) learn how to use Vital and b) make some music in the style of the Cyberpunk OST, but Reaper crashes so often, it's ridiculous. There are only 2 things different from my non crashy Reaper projects: I'm using Vital, and I'm temporarily using WASAPI instead of ASIO because I want to use my bluetooth headphones right now. Any idea how to get rid of the crashes? I'm using Vital v1.0.7.


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## richmwhitfield (Aug 24, 2022)

Do you use the VST2 or VST3 version of Vital? Maybe try the other one. 

Does Reaper have any crash logs that may give you a better idea of what happened? Failing that check Event Viewer (if Win) - that may also give an idea of why the crash happened.


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## Pier (Aug 24, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I'm trying to a) learn how to use Vital and b) make some music in the style of the Cyberpunk OST, but Reaper crashes so often, it's ridiculous. There are only 2 things different from my non crashy Reaper projects: I'm using Vital, and I'm temporarily using WASAPI instead of ASIO because I want to use my bluetooth headphones right now. Any idea how to get rid of the crashes? I'm using Vital v1.0.7.


No idea sorry. Vital has been rock solid for me.

My hunch is that it could be something WASAPI related. Not with Vital but with Reaper. No DAW was ever optimized to be used with crap WASAPI.


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## MartinH. (Aug 24, 2022)

Pier said:


> No idea sorry. Vital has been rock solid for me.
> 
> My hunch is that it could be something WASAPI related. Not with Vital but with Reaper. No DAW was ever optimized to be used with crap WASAPI.



I googled around a bit and someone recommended to log out of the online account. I've tried that and haven't had a single crash since then. Maybe that was it? 



Pier said:


> I'm definitely not a psytrance connaisseur but it sounds very convincing to me.


Wouldn't go quite as far as calling myself a connaisseur but I've listened to a lot of psytrance in the past and this sounds pretty good to me. Maybe lacking a little analog warmth, but that could probably be added in just fine with some post processing like console- and tape emulations. Thanks for linking that channel, he has some really great Vital tutorials!


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## Pier (Aug 24, 2022)

MartinH. said:


> I googled around a bit and someone recommended to log out of the online account. I've tried that and haven't had a single crash since then. Maybe that was it?


I have one of the paid plans so I'm always logged in. Never had a crash with ASIO. Everything is possible but it seems weird the crash would be caused by WASAP + being logged in. Anyway I'm glad you fixed it!



MartinH. said:


> Maybe lacking a little analog warmth, but that could probably be added in just fine with some post processing like console- and tape emulations.


Yeah Vital is not the synth to look for analog warmth


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## sostenuto (Aug 24, 2022)

_fwiw_ _ just posted on PluginGuru Forum _ asking for Update on VITAL Preset schedule _ discussed long ago on Livestream(s). Hope it remains near-term possibility. 🙏🏻


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## Pier (Sep 3, 2022)

Here's our beloved @venustheory comparing Vital with two other hardware synths.



Here are the results and synths used in each round if you want to follow along.


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## venustheory (Sep 3, 2022)

This is a massive bag of worms but IMO (and mind you speaking from quite a bit of experience here and really not meaning to come across as condescending or anything) any synth puts out of it what you put into it.

'Cinematic Sound' is certainly not exclusive to different synths - it's all on the context. A Juno is an incredibly boring synth by today's standards, but in a retro 80s thriller it sounds incredibly cinematic and lush. A 303 is equally lame duck, but with some distortion and pounding drums suddenly you're Solar Fields.

Vital is perfectly capable of cinematic sound design and I've used it for plenty of things, but you have to know what you're after to make that happen.

I wish I could provide some more clarity here but that's a lot more than I can put in a forum post from my phone 😅


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## venustheory (Sep 3, 2022)

Okay so in order to not come across as a total jackass, here's a few points that come to mind after some tea and a think here:
- A lot of the basis of most cinematic synth patches are pretty simple. The 'Hans Synth Drum' is just white noise and a filter envelope with velocity sensitivity. Add some distortion, you've got The Dark Knight.
- Many cinematic patches are fairly drone oriented. A filter enevelope on a saw wave with an arp running gives you the basis of a lot of pulse patches. Add an LFO to the filter for more 'evolution' and away you go.
- Quite a few modern cinematic synth sounds are really just based on simple stuff - evolving wavetables, some FM with modulation to the operator levels, and a dousing of some big ass reverb and you've got your next sci-fi epic.
- For more interesting textural stuff, synthesis isn't really the way a lot of the time. Sampling is where it's at and audio is quite flexible if you play around with extreme time stretching or other weird ways of processing things.
- Layering these ideas together, you can create a fairly detailed and intricate cinematic synth piece with your own touches on top or some added 'oomph' from your other favorite tools.
- If you check out most 'cinematic' patches from Zebra, Dune (my personal favorite), Diva, or even hardware like the Iridium (Kevin Schroeder's amazing work comes to mind) a lot of it is actually pretty simple stuff with some of the above techniques mentioned or variations on them.

Toss in some effects here and there, a good granular synth or something spicy like Iris or Paulstretch or whatever, and the irreplaceable (and unfortunately unteachable) decade or two of compositional experience and you're rocking and rolling with the same saws and squares and filters you've been feeling have been holding you back all along.

All this is to say 'eye of the beholder' and all that. What you have is probably significantly more powerful than you give it credit for and it's easy to fall into the GAS trap of 'if I only had X I could do/be/make Y'.

Never be afraid to try a new tool, but don't give it too much credit as something that you have onhand. Vital and Surge are easily two of the most powerful synths on the market for free, and if people spout the idea that they're not good for XYZ genre/style/etc (outside the obvious lacking features like different synthesis engines and all that) then I can tell you with extreme confidence they probably are just blowing smoke.

Suppose the thought to leave it with is that the best tool is the one you master, but also the one that inspires you to do the work. 

Learn your stuff, but find the stuff that makes you want to learn. 99.9999% of the time the product/tool isn't the true solution but the investment you place in it is.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 3, 2022)

A Juno 106 won’t be bland with a midi controller and/or foot pedal mapped to things plus some modern fx. I bet Model 84 can drone just fine - it’s how you treat it.

Synths aren’t “dated” as much as how people play them. That said, certain sounds come more easily to some synths than others.


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## Pier (Sep 4, 2022)

venustheory said:


> The 'Hans Synth Drum' is just white noise and a filter envelope with velocity sensitivity. Add some distortion, you've got The Dark Knight.


The core sound is indeed filtered white noise but as usual the devil is really in the details. Easy to check in the ZebraHZ presets.






2 noise sources, 4 filters (plus the filters on the noise modules), 2 comb filters... and the effects.

Oh and no distortion.

I realize you weren't going for precision in your comment but still, it feels kinda dismissive of Howard's work on the Batman stuff.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Sep 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> and the effects.


Am i the only one that is afraid of using synth internal fx? I know i shouldn’t be, but the echoes of overusing fx are still sustaining in me.


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## Pier (Sep 4, 2022)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Am i the only one that is afraid of using synth internal fx? I know i shouldn’t be, but the echoes of overusing fx are still sustaining in me.


Overusing is going to be an issue whether you use internal or external effects.

The nice thing of using the internal effects is that they are super easy to store in a preset and recall with a click. And you can always easily remove them for the final version.


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## Living Fossil (Sep 4, 2022)

arcy said:


> Does it sound good, especially the filters section?


Filters and their quality in synths is a huge and quite interesting topic.

Having worked with lots of (hardware) synths that really had amazing filters, like the Matrix 12, the Jupiter 8 , The Prophet VS, the Minimoog and many more I often have a hard time with synths that try to emulate analog filters but don't do it in an overly convincing way.

However, there are some significant aspects to consider:

- the quality of a filter gets only relevant if it plays an active part in a sound. A filter with some resonance that slowly opens is much more critical than a filter that is at a more or less static value, which can sound great even if the filter on its own is quite cheezy. Also: a lot of now famous digital synths of the 80ies didn't had a filter at all (and if they had one, it wasn't exactly great...)

- While real analog filters shaped the perception of how filters should sound, this doesn't mean that more clinical filters (even in cases where they have no charisma at all) can't sound gorgeous in context. Specially with clean wavetable sounds – as can be done with Vital – sometimes a very neutral filter is a perfect fit.

- also with softsynths that have fantastic filters, better is not always better. There are sounds in Diva that sound better in Draft mode. And I had a very interesting case with a sound from (u-He's) ACE which completely fell apart when I raised the quality setting.

Regarding Vital, I think its filter works pretty well in the context of the personality of that synth. And Vital can produce fantastic sounds (the problem is rather the jungle of mediocre sounds that surround it). 
What I do quite often when I use Vital is putting a low pass filter behind it to get rid of the (often occuring) tons of high frequency content (that's something i also do almost everytime when I use Thorn). The Lindell 6X-500 plugin is quite useful for this task since it adds some character.


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## xepocal (Sep 4, 2022)

That's where Vital's wave editing capabilities come in handy. Want more analog flavour? Redraw your wave/add some imperfections and yank out some upper harmonics.

I also like to put some mild random modulation on the global voice tuning.

Recent versions of Vital provide 5 lowpass filters per patch and one more for each oscillator.


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## Pier (Sep 4, 2022)

BTW anyone knows when the 1.5.1 version is going to be available to everyone?


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Sep 4, 2022)

Pier said:


> Overusing is going to be an issue whether you use internal or external effects.
> 
> The nice thing of using the internal effects is that they are super easy to store in a preset and recall with a click. And you can always easily remove them for the final version.


Yea, i mean internal fx can be modulated inside and become part of the preset design, but all softsynths fx are short on settings (sometimes essential) or even in quality.
Umm, just thinking why they are always implemented, but not on the high level of the rest of the synth.
Mhhmm…


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## Pier (Sep 23, 2022)




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## Pier (Sep 23, 2022)

Hopefully we will get an arp/sequencer now that Matt has had his fun playing with graphics and gradients!


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## xepocal (Sep 23, 2022)

Does Vital really need an arp? The LFO tool is super fast at drawing stepped seqs.

Switching between different patterns seems really cumbersome though. I don't see a way that doesn't involve tying a dozen things to multiple macros, but maybe I'm just being blind.


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## Pier (Sep 23, 2022)

xepocal said:


> Does Vital really need an arp? The LFO tool is super fast at drawing stepped seqs.


Stepped sequences are really not the same as having an arp/sequencer that triggers discrete notes (each with its own envelope, velocity, mods, etc).


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## Pier (Sep 23, 2022)

Holy moly the GUI of 1.5 is buttery smooth.


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## StefanoM (Sep 23, 2022)

for me it is not important the quality of a filter to be able to call cinematic a synth, because the
QUALITY is good in a lot of synth.


Much more important the quality and type of synthesis and the TYPE of filters and modulation routing.


And of course, the Sound Design Skills of the User...


so Vital is quite a great "Cinematic" Synth... in a good pair of hands and ears


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 24, 2022)

I need to love the sound of the raw “oscillators” (or equivalent), too, in addition to the filters.


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## CrystalWizard (Sep 28, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Eh. I was completely unamazed when I did the demo. That was awhile ago, though, so maybe some amazing ones have been added since. I was far more amazed with Vital... but also not with the presets.


I was given the very last version of Zebra, i thought the factory presets were pretty good as far as showing off the synth. That's not to say i would use many as is. i also like to make my own.

As for Vital- i've never really gotten the whole "this synth is good for this..." Then again i barely do the genre thing, i'm still at R&R,Jazz, C&W, electronic, etc...
Of course you can use Vital for "cinematic" stuff. I know there are a lot of people on this forum who actually do cinematic work but "cinematic" seems like a new buzzword to sell soundpacks and synths imo.


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## Pier (Dec 2, 2022)

Not identical but surprisingly close in some cases.


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## sostenuto (Dec 2, 2022)

Pier said:


> Not identical but surprisingly close in some cases.



🤷🏻 Sylenth ~ good SS _ Vital got early support, yet nothing new for looong time.
Made some sort of alliance, and PluginGuru backed away from enthusiastic 'expansion' commitment. Vital sliding down short list since.


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## vitocorleone123 (Dec 2, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> 🤷🏻 Sylenth ~ good SS _ Vital got early support, yet nothing new for looong time.
> Made some sort of alliance, and PluginGuru backed away from enthusiastic 'expansion' commitment. Vital sliding down short list since.


But.... it's free.


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## sostenuto (Dec 2, 2022)

vitocorleone123 said:


> But.... it's free.


Delighted to have gone with Vital - Plus. 
Would surely have gone with Pro _ but several critiques of its additional Presets. 😒


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## sostenuto (Dec 2, 2022)

BTW _ have wondered why Initial Audio - Sektor ( Wavetable softsynth ) seems to get no attention pro /con _ unless missed somehow. 🤷🏻


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## José Herring (Dec 2, 2022)

Vital for me developed some sort of weird bug that hasn't been fixed. At 100% size it causes my entire computer monitor to flicker. I had to stop using it. Going to check on it again to see if it's been fixed. 
Kind of reminded me why Vital was free. I haven't experienced anything like that in any of my paid software. 

I did pay for Pro just to support the developer as I'm sure 1000's of others just took free version. But, his operation isn't a "business" and there's little to no recourse on getting answers. I hit KVR forum and seems like it's not an uncommon bug either.


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## Obi-Wan Spaghetti (Dec 2, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> BTW _ have wondered why Initial Audio - Sektor ( Wavetable softsynth ) seems to get no attention pro /con _ unless missed somehow. 🤷🏻


This one goes on sale really cheap. Like $15. So i got it hehe! But i can't compare.


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## sostenuto (Dec 2, 2022)

Obi-Wan Spaghetti said:


> This one goes on sale really cheap. Like $15. So i got it hehe! But i can't compare.


Good to know you are aware of it ! Likely got it on some promo, yet they have done updates. 
Surely waaay under radar ....... 👻


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## Crowe (Dec 2, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> BTW _ have wondered why Initial Audio - Sektor ( Wavetable softsynth ) seems to get no attention pro /con _ unless missed somehow. 🤷🏻


Because it's Initial Audio and sold through W.A. Production. That's a double double negative that does not make a positive. The only thing that could possibly make it more mediocre is if its effects-section was done by Soundspot.


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## richmwhitfield (Dec 3, 2022)

José Herring said:


> Vital for me developed some sort of weird bug that hasn't been fixed. At 100% size it causes my entire computer monitor to flicker. I had to stop using it. Going to check on it again to see if it's been fixed.
> Kind of reminded me why Vital was free. I haven't experienced anything like that in any of my paid software.
> 
> I did pay for Pro just to support the developer as I'm sure 1000's of others just took free version. But, his operation isn't a "business" and there's little to no recourse on getting answers. I hit KVR forum and seems like it's not an uncommon bug either.


Couple of things just to try/check. Have you got the most recent version as the UI was rebuilt from the ground up? So that would be v1.5+

If you have, have you tried asking about the issue in the Vital discord? That is probably the best place to ask, especially if you have a paid version as there is a support channel for 'supporters'

@sostenuto - Vital 1.5 was released reasonably recently, so not sure what you mean by that. Granted they don't advertise the fact very widely, but I would go into your account and download the newest version. Matt Tytel releases builds pretty frequently, which again are not advertised - unless you are part of the Vital discord where there is a channel showing when is build is built.


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## José Herring (Dec 3, 2022)

richmwhitfield said:


> Couple of things just to try/check. Have you got the most recent version as the UI was rebuilt from the ground up? So that would be v1.5+
> 
> If you have, have you tried asking about the issue in the Vital discord? That is probably the best place to ask, especially if you have a paid version as there is a support channel for 'supporters'
> 
> @sostenuto - Vital 1.5 was released reasonably recently, so not sure what you mean by that. Granted they don't advertise the fact very widely, but I would go into your account and download the newest version. Matt Tytel releases builds pretty frequently, which again are not advertised - unless you are part of the Vital discord where there is a channel showing when is build is built.


The problem started with the 1.5 updates so now it makes sense. I was wondering how a product can go from totally fine on my system to glitch city.

After a recent FB hack I'm afraid of all social media. If there's a way to use discord without signing in, I'll try but for now, I'll just wait it out.


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## sostenuto (Dec 3, 2022)

Crowe said:


> Because it's Initial Audio and sold through W.A. Production. That's a double double negative that does not make a positive. The only thing that could possibly make it more mediocre is if its effects-section was done by Soundspot.


*OK !! **_ 💩 *> 🚽 > 🪠> 🧻


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## Teksonik (Dec 3, 2022)

There are dedicated Vital forums. Matt posts there but not on a daily basis.

https://forum.vital.audio/

You'll also find a ton of free patches, wavetables, themes, etc.


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## Paj (Dec 3, 2022)

sostenuto said:


> *OK !! **_ 💩 *> 🚽> 🪠> 🧻


Not necessarily in that order?

FWIW, I'm trying to climb out of the soft-synth rabbit hole after realizing I still like and appreciate the original stuff by AIR Music Tech. Should be easy to get up and out if I stand on and use all the stuff I accumulated. Should be . . .

Paj
8^)

P.S.: A great time to be alive.


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