# Apple will do more in the pro area



## wbacer (Mar 1, 2017)

I read this on 9-5 Mac.

Cook also hinted at Apple’s product pipeline by promising Apple will “do more in the pro area.” Cook called out the creative field as especially important to Apple while pushing back against the notion that Apple is too consumer focused now. “Don’t think that something we’ve done or something we’re doing that isn’t visible yet is a signal that our priorities are elsewhere.”

We'll see...


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## Musicam (Mar 1, 2017)

I dream with a New Mac pro for musicians and artists  Thank you Apple!


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## Xaviez (Mar 1, 2017)

Proof is in the pudding, but I would love this to be true!


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## JPQ (Mar 1, 2017)

I dream powerful mac mini for creative people.


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## synthpunk (Mar 2, 2017)

Will, would it be okay to move this post over to the Daw forum? Might make a few people over there happier.

Would be great if Apple brought back a four core Mac Mini with expanded Ram at least 32G. The new imacs are speed demons so it shouldn't be too hard.

And of course the First new Mac Pro in 4 years.


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## mc_deli (Mar 2, 2017)

wbacer said:


> I read this on 9-5 Mac.
> 
> Cook also hinted at Apple’s product pipeline by promising Apple will “do more in the pro area.” Cook called out the creative field as especially important to Apple while pushing back against the notion that Apple is too consumer focused now. “Don’t think that something we’ve done or something we’re doing that isn’t visible yet is a signal that our priorities are elsewhere.”
> 
> We'll see...


Dude I don't see any new stories on 9-5 or Mac Rumours 2 months... link please or this ain't news


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## Living Fossil (Mar 2, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Would be great if Apple brought back a four core Mac Mini with expanded Ram at least 32G. The new imacs are speed demons so it shouldn't be too hard.



Intel's i7 6700k is around since enough time and now there is the 7700k - both are quite affordable and both can hold 64GBs. I don't see the point why Apple wants so much money for outdated tech specs.


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## samphony (Mar 2, 2017)

This could b a Mac mini pro with thunderbolt 3

http://store.hp.com/us/en/cv/z2mini


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## wbacer (Mar 2, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Dude I don't see any new stories on 9-5 or Mac Rumours 2 months... link please or this ain't news


This is where I read that statement.
https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/28/apple-annual-shareholders-meeting/


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## mc_deli (Mar 2, 2017)

wbacer said:


> This is where I read that statement.
> https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/28/apple-annual-shareholders-meeting/


Yup there's something there
I'm itching to buy a new MP that's not 4 years old...


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## d.healey (Mar 3, 2017)

Just buy a PC, you can have it now, for less.


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 3, 2017)

Tim is all vague talk and bean counting. Someone revive Steve Jobs please.


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## synthpunk (Mar 3, 2017)

The Gold Courtesy Phone Is Ringing.



Simon Ravn said:


> Tim is all vague talk and bean counting. Someone revive Steve Jobs please.


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## Soundhound (Mar 3, 2017)

Steve couldn't come to the phone, he's spinning too fast in his grave.

But seriously folks, it would be great if Apple really revived focus on tech for creative pros. Not holding my breath though. Starting to think about a refurbished 2013 mac pro for my main mac, and a couple of PCs to serve up samples... sigh....


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 3, 2017)

d.healey said:


> Just buy a PC, you can have it now, for less.


yes, .......and survive windows 10


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## d.healey (Mar 3, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> yes, .......and survive windows 10


Windows 10 is excellent, but you could always make a Hackintosh, or install Linux (I keeed), or use a Win 7/8/Vista


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## NoamL (Mar 3, 2017)

I think Logic Pro does not have much of a future unless there is a new, great Mac Pro sometime in the next year or two.

The absence of MacPro from the latest round of announcements, and the dumbing down of the latest MBP, sends a message. Apple's commitment to pros seems to have been going down over the past 5 years no matter what they say... they indeed turned into a consumer phone and app services company.

Unfortunately I have been using Logic my entire career.... time to learn Cubase and ProTools I reckon...


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## Zhao Shen (Mar 3, 2017)

wbacer said:


> I read this on 9-5 Mac.
> 
> Cook also hinted at Apple’s product pipeline by promising Apple will “do more in the pro area.” Cook called out the creative field as especially important to Apple while pushing back against the notion that Apple is too consumer focused now. “Don’t think that something we’ve done or something we’re doing that isn’t visible yet is a signal that our priorities are elsewhere.”
> 
> We'll see...



So basically Cook said "Look the iPad Pro and new MacBook Pros are legit awful and we're sorry. The next models will actually live up to the Pro branding..."


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## chimuelo (Mar 3, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> yes, .......and survive windows 10



Windows 10 stripped down and tuned, then use Acronis folder selection to select vital folders.
Clone to a newly formatted M.2 or SSD.
You can never go online with it again. But it will be a very good audio OS.
It recalls last RAM snapshots.

MacPros will be AMD 1800X/X370s later this summer. 
Check Foxconn for system boards.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 4, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Windows 10 stripped down and tuned, then use Acronis folder selection to select vital folders.
> Clone to a newly formatted M.2 or SSD.
> You can never go online with it again. But it will be a very good audio OS.
> It recalls last RAM snapshots.
> ...


Whenever I go windows I will be sure to recal this Chimuello.

Good to hear the dreadful noises I seen from members here can be worked around.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 4, 2017)

NoamL said:


> I think Logic Pro does not have much of a future unless there is a new, great Mac Pro sometime in the next year or two.
> 
> The absence of MacPro from the latest round of announcements, and the dumbing down of the latest MBP, sends a message. Apple's commitment to pros seems to have been going down over the past 5 years no matter what they say... they indeed turned into a consumer phone and app services company.
> 
> Unfortunately I have been using Logic my entire career.... time to learn Cubase and ProTools I reckon...



I am not a laptop guy, I owned one for two weeks and sold it, but by far the majority of new Logic users I am helping are using it with laptops. And with Garage Band being more powerful and full featured on the iPad, I think we we will see a version of Logic Pro for the iPad and iPad Pro and ten years from now it will be the most used scenario.

It isn't what I want the future to be, nor do most here probably, but as Bob Dylan said, "You don't need to be a weatherman to see which way the wind blows."


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## Silence-is-Golden (Mar 4, 2017)

possibly Jay, but in 10 years what will be the difference in capacity between iPads/Laptops and MacPro's.... if even that division then still exists.

Maybe a quantum MacPro and ludicrous speed iPadPro with LogicXX?


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 4, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> I am not a laptop guy, I owned one for two weeks and sold it, but by far the majority of new Logic users I am helping are using it with laptops. And with Garage Band being more powerful and full featured on the iPad, I think we we will see a version of Logic Pro for the iPad and iPad Pro and ten years from now it will be the most used scenario.
> 
> It isn't what I want the future to be, nor do most here probably, but as Bob Dylan said, "You don't need to be a weatherman to see which way the wind blows."



You might be right that Logic will come for iPad, and it will be most used there. But that's because of all the use by hobbyists and "amateurs" (in lack of a better word). Nobody doing heavy orchestral/film work will be doing it on an iPad. And I am not even talking about a lack of horsepower. Let's say the iPad 10 years from now will have 256GB RAM and be more powerful than todays Mac Pro's. That's not it - it's the form factor/practicality of it. Nobody wants to do big arrangements on a small touchscreen. It just doesn't make sense.

But sure. The majority might use laptop/iPad, just as they do today.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 4, 2017)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> possibly Jay, but in 10 years what will be the difference in capacity between iPads/Laptops and MacPro's.... if even that division then still exists.
> 
> Maybe a quantum MacPro and ludicrous speed iPadPro with LogicXX?




I just am not optimistic about the future of the Mac Pro, as there are just too few people who want one. I do think the iMac will survive.

But, I could be wrong.


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## Vik (Mar 4, 2017)

I guess the big question is if they have changed their product philosophy. They could have made a brilliant Mac Mini upgrade, aimed at pros/the more CPU/RAM hungry users out there, but instead they downgraded it - probably not to destroy the sales of the Mac Pro. 
http://www.mac-forums.com/apple-desktops/317457-apple-downgrade-mac-mini.html


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## Soundhound (Mar 4, 2017)

Yup, that was the moment I started questioning my undying loyalty to Apple and started chatting up other computers in bars to get their phone numbers.



Vik said:


> I guess the big question is if they have changed their product philosophy. They could have made a brilliant Mac Mini upgrade, aimed at pros/the more CPU/RAM hungry users out there, but instead they downgraded it - probably not to destroy the sales of the Mac Pro.
> http://www.mac-forums.com/apple-desktops/317457-apple-downgrade-mac-mini.html


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## Vik (Mar 4, 2017)

I guess it's time to realise that in a way, Apple isn't Apple anymore. The old Steve Jobs quote about bot wanting to be the biggest, but the best, isn't valid anymore either.

Also - Apple isn't mainly a computer company anymore; it's mainly a phone company with other interests as well (watches, cars, tablets, computers...).

I stumbled upon this 9 year old thread earlier today:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33384&sid=b2adbea67532815b0ed38c3f70b67117

Maybe 5% of the score related wishes posted back then have been implemented, while a lot has been done to please and win Pro Tools users.

Mac may be a low priority for Apple, but regarding the stuff we discuss on this forum (orchestration, composition, general use of VIs with all that implies; articulation control, CC automation etc): we're the lowest priority among the pro users.

So even if Apple will do more for pro users, the best approach IMO is to not expect anything from Apple anymore - except Logic bug-fixes (but not bug-fixes related to the topics I just mentioned).

My assumption is that the main thing they'll do for pro users is to launch new Mac Pros - but at a ridiculous price.


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## josefsnabb (Mar 5, 2017)

Have you guys seen this monster concept of the next MacPro that someone have made? 
Would be neat but monster pricy. 

http://pascaleggert.de/macpro.html


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2017)

Jay, if you walked around NAMM you probably saw three iPads in the entire show (I mean being used for music applications).

They may well come out with an iPad version of Logic, but iOS has slowed way down. If Tim Cook says they're doing stuff in the pro area, I'm sure they are - although he wasn't specific, and someone high up at Apple is making bad decisions about hardware.

Those bad decisions I'm talking about: removing the headphone jack from the iPhone, the shitty keyboard and lack of ports on the MacBook, the totally naff MacBook Pro with a laughable strip instead of function keys, and in general the lack of a Mac that you or I would be interested in... causing me to replace two aging Macs with used machines in the past few months.

And you do have to wonder how difficult it would be to come out with a pro-level Mac. They already have the design, they just need to update the boards and chips.

But I don't think it's fair to say they're a phone company so they don't care about Logic. If they come out with features, people grouse that they should be fixing bugs instead; if they fix bugs without adding features, the same people grouse that they don't add features and are just fixing bugs and they're a phone and watch company.

Meanwhile they're working hard on Logic and keep coming out with updates.


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## gsilbers (Mar 5, 2017)

josefsnabb said:


> Have you guys seen this monster concept of the next MacPro that someone have made?
> Would be neat but monster pricy.
> 
> http://pascaleggert.de/macpro.html



holly hell that looks awesome


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## galactic orange (Mar 5, 2017)

josefsnabb said:


> Have you guys seen this monster concept of the next MacPro that someone have made?
> Would be neat but monster pricy.
> 
> http://pascaleggert.de/macpro.html


Now that looks like a system worthy of dropping a few grand on! Not that I have that kind of money.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 5, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Meanwhile they're working hard on Logic and keep coming out with updates.



That "they" are the German developers. They work for Apple now,but they are very different than the Apple people in Cupertino and their devotion to Logic may not mean that much to the guys making decisions about the future of Apple hardware.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2017)

Understood. But we've been reading stuff about how they're just about to kill Logic since they bought the company.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 5, 2017)

It occurs to me that the reason there's no updated Mac Pro is that they have a huge stockpile of the un-updated one. It's several times what a professional machine should cost, of course, so it makes sense that it doesn't sell. Apple doesn't just blow out products - it's not how they operate.

See? I have one of those Apple-watching armchairs too.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 5, 2017)

I would be very surprised if all Mac and iOS devices did NOT send detailed usage metrics back to the mothership, allowing Apple to determine with precision what percentage of users ever installed a PCIe card in their silver tower, how many FireWire devices were used, and how many times anyone ever touched the function keys on their 2012 MacBook Pro. Even though I only use my laptop for non-music tasks, I have never used the function keys for anything other than adjusting screen brightness and speaker volume - so perhaps the "laughable strip" on the new MacBook Pros is there because not enough people ever touched the function keys anyway.

As to the idea that the new Mac Pro cylinders aren't selling - every single music user and video edit suite I've been in over the last two years had cylinders - I haven't seen a silver tower in years except in the massive yard sale when Soundelux went out of business, or in the dusty spare room at my place. Even the grungy little post facility I went to out in Glendale the other day for a spotting session had cylinders in every room. My die-hard old-tech-loving buddy who swears by his Synclaviers and analog outboard has a cylinder. Even my songwriter friend with the HDX rig and the Burl Mothership has a cylinder. So, everybody that I see who might be a potential buyer of cylinders IS buying them.


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## Vik (Mar 6, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> It occurs to me that the reason there's no updated Mac Pro is that they have a huge stockpile of the un-updated one.


Sure, and I guess that's both due to the price (IIRR it's manufactured in US, which makes it more expensive, I guess), and because it's probably the first time in history that Apple has spent 4 (?) years without updating the model.
Jobs talked about the Post-PC era many years ago, but Apple doesn't want to disappoint loyal users by saying that they'll stop making Mac Pros. Do they have a cunning plan about making the MacPros obsolete due to lack of interest (caused by a too high price)? I have no idea, and speculating about the future is usually waste of time. 
Its more interesting to speculate about/look at what they do now/have been doing lately. And besides needed bug-fixes and some minor changes, that isn't much (based om the needs/wishes I have for Logic/Apple). 
And that's too bad, because I now Logic so well and am so not interested in spending a lot of time learning a new DAW (or new DAW + score app) properly, let alone a new OS. 

The smartest thing Apple could do IMHO is to make pro desktop computers based on iOs, and port Logic Pro (and FCP etc) over to iOs - with improvements.


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## Saxer (Mar 6, 2017)

There would be no problem if they stopped making MacPros as long as the other models could take over in performance and expandability. But with a MacMini shrunked to dual core and no other model offering more than 4 cores and memory border at 32 GB the MacPros are far from replaceable. I'm fine with my 2013 Vader helmet but that will not last forever.


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## Vik (Mar 6, 2017)

Saxer said:


> There would be no problem if they stopped making MacPros as long as the other models could take over in performance and expandability.


Sure. But the those would have been the new "Mac Pros". 
I believe that Apple would have been better off with more models; they don't need to be stuck with the Mac Mini /Mac Pro formats. Something in between those two (price & size wise) would appeal to many pro users.


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## josefsnabb (Mar 6, 2017)

I saw an Apple income chart that could explain the lack of focus on the MP recent years, because the revenue of their money making phones are around 60% of their total income.






http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/03/05/editorial-the-future-of-apples-macintosh


But they will most likely continue with the pro´s as indicated in this thread. I guess they have been confused due to the negative response of their new MP design which they thought was perfect.

So, what would the ideal new Mac Pro be?
Double sized cylinder with more space? Enable third party CPU and GPU again to upgrade yourself, have 8 Slots of RAM, at least one empty PCIe-slot, loads of fast M2-storage and space for SSD´s for additional storage and only TB3-ports? Possibility to add a second fan underneath to handle and cool down more powerful processors and graphic future upgrades?


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## luke_7 (Mar 6, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> I would be very surprised if all Mac and iOS devices did NOT send detailed usage metrics back to the mothership, allowing Apple to determine with precision what percentage of users ever installed a PCIe card in their silver tower, how many FireWire devices were used, and how many times anyone ever touched the function keys on their 2012 MacBook Pro. Even though I only use my laptop for non-music tasks, I have never used the function keys for anything other than adjusting screen brightness and speaker volume - so perhaps the "laughable strip" on the new MacBook Pros is there because not enough people ever touched the function keys anyway.
> 
> As to the idea that the new Mac Pro cylinders aren't selling - every single music user and video edit suite I've been in over the last two years had cylinders - I haven't seen a silver tower in years except in the massive yard sale when Soundelux went out of business, or in the dusty spare room at my place. Even the grungy little post facility I went to out in Glendale the other day for a spotting session had cylinders in every room. My die-hard old-tech-loving buddy who swears by his Synclaviers and analog outboard has a cylinder. Even my songwriter friend with the HDX rig and the Burl Mothership has a cylinder. So, everybody that I see who might be a potential buyer of cylinders IS buying them.




I absolutely agree with Maestro Charlie Clouser and from what i see nowadays more of my friend are new Mac Pro users then before. I've bought my new Mac Pro cylinder year ago and I'm extremely happy. Actually that was one of the reasons why i switched from Cubase to Logic.


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## FriFlo (Mar 6, 2017)

josefsnabb said:


> So, what would the ideal new Mac Pro be?
> Double sized cylinder with more space? Enable third party CPU and GPU again to upgrade yourself, have 8 Slots of RAM, at least one empty PCIe-slot, loads of fast M2-storage and space for SSD´s for additional storage and only TB3-ports? Possibility to add a second fan underneath to handle and cool down more powerful processors and graphic future upgrades?


I think it is obvious at this point that Apple doesn't believe in the future of PCIe, which might be correct, just - and this is typical for Apple - several years to early for the customers needs and the market to adjust. My first Mac Pro was the first one called Mac Pro with the dual G5 processor. At that time, hardly any PCIe cards were available, yet, they decided to abandone the PCI bus in favor of PCIe only ... 2 generations later, that's might have been ok, but at that time it was nuts!
The same thing happened with the 2013 model. While I admired the design, it was several years to early, as it severely narrowed the customers choices or at least made it very hard and expensive to allow the use of expansions.
Who knows what Apple will do now, if anything at all ... I would not buy a Mac Pro that has become even smaller than the 2013 model (I am still using an upgraded 2009 model). I see no value of those machines getting smaller and smaller. For that purpose I buy a laptop. I acknowledge the value of portability for some customers, but not for me and I think many people would agree.
Lastly, the price point has to be within the reasonable range. I simply won't spend 10 k + on a computer. There are alternatives with more reasonable price point in the PC world. That is why I use slaves with VEpro. If there will be no newer model with an acceptable price, I will switch to Windows for my main machine, as well.


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## jamwerks (Mar 6, 2017)

I know of one major studio in Paris that is running a Hack for PT based recording.


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## Musicam (Mar 6, 2017)

Linux


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## Vik (Mar 6, 2017)

josefsnabb said:


> So, what would the ideal new Mac Pro be?


For me, it would be something a la a very powerful Mac Mini, with some kind of SuperThunderbolt cable output which either could link it to other similar computers or to an expansion box with lots of connectors, room for at least 4 SSDs etc.


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## josefsnabb (Mar 6, 2017)

Yes, some kind of modular concept would be great. 
Like an updated MP together with small circular black *Mac Mini Pro´s * to stack on each other, next to the MP.


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## synthpunk (Mar 6, 2017)

With the processors being upgradeable in the Vader helmet MP's what else would someone want with an updated Mac Pro model ? just curious. A new chipset? Is that really going to offer a lot more right now? A few more Thunderbolt ports/Thunderbolt 3? My Vader helmet Thunderbolt 2 is very fast in just about every way. Of course there will be a point I presume at some point when Apple pulls the plug on the Vader helmets and does not allow OS updates is that what everyone is really worried about?

Hackintosh is certainly intriguing but I do not want to be a part-time IT person either and from everyone I've spoken with you sort of have to be for that option.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 6, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> With the processors being upgradeable in the Vader helmet MP's what else would someone want with an updated Mac Pro model ? just curious. A new chipset? Is that really going to offer a lot more right now? A few more Thunderbolt ports/Thunderbolt 3? My Vader helmet Thunderbolt 2 is very fast in just about every way. Of course there will be a point I presume at some point when Apple pulls the plug on the Vader helmets and does not allow OS updates is that what everyone is really worried about?
> 
> Hackintosh is certainly intriguing but I do not want to be a part-time IT person either and from everyone I've spoken with you sort of have to be for that option.




Newer, faster chips and RAM.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 6, 2017)

For me the ideal Mac Pro would be a laptop that becomes a desktop replacement when you hook up your peripherals. We're headed there and beyond, as I've ranted once or twice.

Charlie, the people you're seeing with Mac Pros are likely to be a lot less price-sensitive than most people. That's not the bulk of their market (or anyone's for that matter). Take my favorite example - myself.  Apple doesn't sell a machine that made sense as an overdue replacement for my 2008 8x2.8GHz Mac Pro, so I ended up with an upgraded/flashed 2009 (12 x 3.46GHz).

While I'm not pushing a shopping cart, I admit that several thousand dollars does make a difference to me. I would have bought a current Mac Pro if it were anywhere close to the $2500 range every other desktop Mac has cost over the past 31 years - and I've bought something like 25 Macs. $7000 for a machine that's only marginally more powerful than the one I paid - I'm not kidding - less than 20% of that for is a nonstarter.

As to the reports back to Apple about how people are using their computers, what's installed, etc., that's an option when you install a new OS X, and I think also when you crash. You may be right that people don't use the function keys, but to me that touchbar looks pretty half-baked. If it's such a compelling feature, you'd expect to see keyboards with it.

Meanwhile, there are things that focus groups can't tell you, such as whether it's smart to get rid of the freaking headphone jack. Saint Steve understood that very well - he always wanted to come out with the product people didn't know they wanted.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 6, 2017)

synthpunk:



> With the processors being upgradeable in the Vader helmet MP's what else would someone want with an updated Mac Pro model ?



That's actually a good point, but it doesn't solve the biggest problem with those machines: they're too f-ing much money. As I post all the time, you shouldn't have to spend close to $7000 for a professional studio computer.


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## lpuser (Mar 6, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> As to the idea that the new Mac Pro cylinders aren't selling - every single music user and video edit suite I've been in over the last two years had cylinders - I haven't seen a silver tower in years except in the massive yard sale when Soundelux went out of business, or in the dusty spare room at my place.



That´s an interesting observation, because I know a lot of musicians, who are still using the old towers. Not everyone would want to buy a cylinder and (at the same time) update all the peripherals, hard drives etc. - that´s simply not in the budget, especially in times where music itself does hardly sell as it used to. The silver Mac Pro is still my absolute dream machine. It is very quiet, holds up to 6 drives plus a CD burner and is still expandable in terms of GPU etc.


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## Nathanael Iversen (Mar 6, 2017)

I started getting off the Apple bandwagon when the current MacPro was released. It seemed clear that their designs were not going to be tailored for music, and I don't edit video. I had already been making sure all plugin and instruments were cross platform. 

I went to Cubase, first on the Mac, and then transitioned to PC. I have been very happy. I still have my 2010 silver tower, and it is a fine sample slave, and has been a wonderful piece of hardware. In 2010, the MacPro was expensive, but not inordinately so. That has changed. 

On a PC platform, I can now have a rock-solid DAW for less than half of what Apple would want to charge. Win10 and a fast i7, and all is good. By re-using case, power, etc, the actual cost of an upgrade is less than that. 

I think the difficulty is that most composers (outside of the A-list big "shops") are not really a "Pro" marketplace. We buy computers like individuals.... one at a time and infrequently. The price is significant for us, but a video post-prod shop buys them by the pallet, writes them off, and then buys more. I suspect that while we consider ourselves professional, their marketing demographics might not. That appears to be reflected in the specification of the current MacPro. It is certainly innovative, Apple-esque hardware, but I couldn't justify the cost and the strange modularity.


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## jamwerks (Mar 6, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's actually a good point, but it doesn't solve the biggest problem with those machines: they're too f-ing much money. As I post all the time, you shouldn't have to spend close to $7000 for a professional studio computer.


Having high prices (2 x a comparable PC) is the only way that this is profitable for Apple. Otherwise the Pro market wouldn't be of interest to them imo.


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## nulautre (Mar 6, 2017)

FriFlo said:


> I think it is obvious at this point that Apple doesn't believe in the future of PCIe, which might be correct, just - and this is typical for Apple - several years to early for the customers needs and the market to adjust. My first Mac Pro was the first one called Mac Pro with the dual G5 processor. At that time, hardly any PCIe cards were available, yet, they decided to abandone the PCI bus in favor of PCIe only ... 2 generations later, that's might have been ok, but at that time it was nuts!
> The same thing happened with the 2013 model. While I admired the design, it was several years to early, as it severely narrowed the customers choices or at least made it very hard and expensive to allow the use of expansions.
> Who knows what Apple will do now, if anything at all ... I would not buy a Mac Pro that has become even smaller than the 2013 model (I am still using an upgraded 2009 model). I see no value of those machines getting smaller and smaller. For that purpose I buy a laptop. I acknowledge the value of portability for some customers, but not for me and I think many people would agree.
> Lastly, the price point has to be within the reasonable range. I simply won't spend 10 k + on a computer. There are alternatives with more reasonable price point in the PC world. That is why I use slaves with VEpro. If there will be no newer model with an acceptable price, I will switch to Windows for my main machine, as well.



On a similar note, I remember people losing their minds when the first iMac didn't have a floppy drive


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 6, 2017)

Jamwerks, they've been selling Macs for over 30 years. I don't see the argument that for it to be worthwhile, their pro machine suddenly has to be three times as expensive as the ones that made them the largest tech company in the world.


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## chimuelo (Mar 6, 2017)

Yuze guys should never count out App£€.
I think they'll go with AMD by years end.
Xeon and Int€£ Hex and Octo took away App€£'s profit margin.
Why would they have to keep making MacPros when their builds last several years.
Int€£ most likely wants to keep App£€ happy so now that prices have dropped they are contemplating profits on AMD 8 Cores or cheaper Xeon/HEDT i7s...

My son gets a MacPro for Christmas, so I'm counting on these guys.


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## samphony (Mar 6, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> I would be very surprised if all Mac and iOS devices did NOT send detailed usage metrics back to the mothership, allowing Apple to determine with precision what percentage of users ever installed a PCIe card in their silver tower, how many FireWire devices were used, and how many times anyone ever touched the function keys on their 2012 MacBook Pro. Even though I only use my laptop for non-music tasks, I have never used the function keys for anything other than adjusting screen brightness and speaker volume - so perhaps the "laughable strip" on the new MacBook Pros is there because not enough people ever touched the function keys anyway.
> 
> As to the idea that the new Mac Pro cylinders aren't selling - every single music user and video edit suite I've been in over the last two years had cylinders - I haven't seen a silver tower in years except in the massive yard sale when Soundelux went out of business, or in the dusty spare room at my place. Even the grungy little post facility I went to out in Glendale the other day for a spotting session had cylinders in every room. My die-hard old-tech-loving buddy who swears by his Synclaviers and analog outboard has a cylinder. Even my songwriter friend with the HDX rig and the Burl Mothership has a cylinder. So, everybody that I see who might be a potential buyer of cylinders IS buying them.



Same here. No matter which suite or studio I've been to all the Apple buddies switched from cheese crater to cylinders except the ones who are still in love with OS X 10.6.8 and Logic Pro 9. I've seen at least one at Jóhanns place as well. One of my co writers switched from a 2013 MacBook Pro pro tools hd rig to a cylinder just a couple of month ago.

Like you've said we love our cylinders. Even if Apple keeps these around for another year I would buy it again.


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## samphony (Mar 6, 2017)

Ashermusic said:


> Newer, faster chips and RAM.


For what reason? To run 6 tracks more? (Kidding)


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## charlieclouser (Mar 6, 2017)

lpuser said:


> That´s an interesting observation, because I know a lot of musicians, who are still using the old towers. Not everyone would want to buy a cylinder and (at the same time) update all the peripherals, hard drives etc. - that´s simply not in the budget, especially in times where music itself does hardly sell as it used to. The silver Mac Pro is still my absolute dream machine. It is very quiet, holds up to 6 drives plus a CD burner and is still expandable in terms of GPU etc.



I think it must be Thunderbolt that's driving a lot of the cylinder purchases I'm seeing in composer's rooms and post suites. I don't know much (anything) about what capture / output devices people like to use for their video edit rigs, but that's got to be part of the equation, since every edit bay that I've been in over the last two years, on both cable and network series as well as feature films, has been cylinder-ized (except for one - a TNT show I was on for a couple of episodes was cutting on an iMac 5k!). Maybe it's at least partly about connecting to big 4k displays via HDMI / DisplayPort? I know that was part of what drove me to upgrade - Logic X is just too "fat" on-screen for my template to be comfortably used at lower display sizes, and now I'm loving the sheer number of pixels in 4k. Even though I guess it's possible to source a PCIe graphics card that can drive these displays and will work in the silver towers, when Logic X first appeared it wasn't immediately apparent what card to buy, and I have no interest in or patience for trying to source things like an "Apple-flashed" version of a high-end graphics card that's intended for PC systems but can be made to work in a silver tower if all the stars align. I don't want to wonder if an OS upgrade will cause some PCIe card to not work all of a sudden - which is the same reason I don't want to mess with Hackintosh at this stage. I actually owned a Power Computing Mac clone in the 1990's, and when the first era of Mac clones ended, the user experience was, shall we say, "not ideal".

I get that the price point of the cylinders is an issue - but for those users who aren't driven to upgrade by lusting after Thunderbolt and USB3, the silver tower's hardware is built to last for many years more, and there are plenty available used for decent prices, with a thriving reseller market for machines that have been upgraded to the max with processor tray swaps, etc. So that's still a completely viable option. If I needed more computers and wasn't so enamored of Thunderbolt peripherals, the silver 12-core would be my choice as well.

I'm still clinging to hope due to that one bit of sleuthing that someone did in the builds of Sierra OS that indicated some as-yet-unused Apple product ID numbers - including one for a mystery machine with 10 USB-C ports. This could only be a refreshed cylinder (or something even more crazy). Apple laptops have four ports, iMacs have six, and pro machines have ten. In many current Apple machines, those ports are divided up - iMacs have four USB and two Thunderbolt for a total of six, while cylinders have four USB and six Thunderbolt for a total of ten. It absolutely sounds like an Apple-esque move to simplify everything down to a single, unified connection scheme for all peripherals across all computers, and the laptops are already headed that way - but the Xeon chips that will support TB3 and USB-C don't ship in volume until Q2/Q3 of this year - so hopefully that's the reason it's been so long with no cylinder refresh. Even if a refreshed cylinder is just a mild internal speed bump with a new rear panel that has ten USB-C ports, that would at least show that it's not been abandoned. So fingers crossed....


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## heisenberg (Mar 6, 2017)

The higher up the food chain you go in video and vfx/post-production the fewer Macs you will see. Lots of people are bailing from their trashcan Macs in the video world due to frequent failure of the GPUs in the nMacs/Cylinders/trashcans. Lots of edit suites went over to Windows 5 years ago when Apple immediately killed off FCP 7 and announced FCP X. Since then with the GPU failures and bum frames people were getting on their video output, many others have been transitioning to Windows. Premiere Pro relies on GPU acceleration as well as Resolve. Then you go higher up feature work into NUKE, Scratch, Mistika, Nucoda, Baselight and others. These seats are operating largely on PCs and some with render farms using a variety of OSs Win, Linux and some Mac.

Most that I know who are using Windows now have gone with great regret. Many are still hopeful that Apple will come out with new Pro machines for Pros but many have simply given up.


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## charlieclouser (Mar 6, 2017)

Yeah, I'm not surprised that high-end VFX users are using Windows - besides the non-cross-platform software that I'm sure is critical for some of those tasks, anyone who needs to set up many workstations or a render farm will feel the benefits of lower-priced PC hardware much faster than users like me who just have one room with a few machines. As it is, I only buy new computers every 5 years or thereabouts, so I don't feel the pain of a constant upgrade cycle like some users will.


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## gsilbers (Mar 6, 2017)

Didnt apple open recently a manufacturing plant for the mac pro in the US ? 
i Would think they would want to keep that rolling.


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## synthpunk (Mar 6, 2017)

I believe that is in Texas and if 2012 means recent, yes.



gsilbers said:


> Didnt apple open recently a manufacturing plant for the mac pro in the US ?
> i Would think they would want to keep that rolling.


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## synthpunk (Mar 6, 2017)

Nick, my 6 core mpvh was $3500 and with Logic X being the bargain it is making up a large part if the extra, but I understand what you're saying. Didn't the old cheese graters compare highly in price to PC at the time as well? I remember my old G5 was high.

I know plenty of people doing great work on Imac if I needed to go that route in the future I don't think I would mind as long as they kept the Ram at 32G or even up to 64G capability and you're getting a great screen to go along with it.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> synthpunk:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## lpuser (Mar 7, 2017)

charlieclouser said:


> I think it must be Thunderbolt that's driving a lot of the cylinder purchases I'm seeing in composer's rooms and post suites.



Absolutely right! The lack of built-in thunderbolt support is certainly one of the main disadvantages of the silver towers. That said, you can still have extremely fast graphics cards with 4K support for them, too (some benchmarks suggest that these cards offer better of equal GPU performance than what Apple is currently offering in the cylinders).

Just like you, I really keep my fingers crossed that Apple will come up with a new computer aimed at professionals


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Mar 7, 2017)

lpuser said:


> That´s an interesting observation, because I know a lot of musicians, who are still using the old towers. Not everyone would want to buy a cylinder and (at the same time) update all the peripherals, hard drives etc. - that´s simply not in the budget, especially in times where music itself does hardly sell as it used to. The silver Mac Pro is still my absolute dream machine. It is very quiet, holds up to 6 drives plus a CD burner and is still expandable in terms of GPU etc.


That SIX can be Seven if you get splitters and expansion cards. In fact I think you could even have more. I am thinking about adding in a couple of PCIe cards so I can chuck in some M.2 cards as well


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 7, 2017)

No question, synthpunk, Logic is absurdly cheap.

I just checked, and a 6-core with 64GB of RAM and a 256GB SSD - i.e. the cheapest one with upgrades to six cores and 64GB - came to $4700, or $3500 if you don't buy their RAM. So $5K after you add RAM and drives.

Of course you expect Macs to be more expensive than PCs with the same raw power, and I for one have always been perfectly willing to pay that premium for the design. It's an old discussion.

But there's a limit to that, and the current Mac Pro is way over it.

***
The iMac is a fantastic machine. My wife has one, and it's really great. 

But it wouldn't work for me, because all my machines are in the garage, behind a trap door in my wall. The monitor would be worse than a total waste, it would make the whole thing inconvenient.

It's designed for a different "use case."


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## synthpunk (Mar 7, 2017)

So your point Nick is that if you upgrade to a Vader Helmet that you would have to buy all new drives and peripherals because the internal bays were eliminated? that's certainly valid.

For me it made more sense than doubt because I need to upgrade my drives anyway and there was the genius black magic multi dock and then added the Thunderbolt card for my uad Apollo. Other than that it was just adding another USB dock.

I have never gotten Ram from Apple it's always double the price. I was lucky enough to upgrade my Ram when Crucial's prices were at its lowest two years ago I believe each 32G upgrade was well under $200 USD.

One other big advantage of the Vader helmet over the towers is power consumption and it's not a small difference. That certainly must make up some cost over yearly usage.

So when Apple finally bricks the old Towers the solutions left would be 1) using an obsolete system 2) upgrade to current MP or Imac 3) PC 4) Hackintosh ?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 7, 2017)

I'd go for solution #1 if it happened today.

Anyway, I didn't mean to call anyone who bought the black Mac a chump! It's a very nice machine. My issue is only that it's too expensive from my point of view - and it's aging every day.

To repeat myself: a computer has always cost about $2500. In my book there's nothing about this machine that warrants it costing a whole lot more than that.


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## Vik (Mar 7, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> a computer has always cost about $2500. In my book there's nothing about this machine that warrants it costing a whole lot more than that.


I also keep thinking that Apple should go back to making high end computers in the price range the used to make them. Apple is probably partially thinking that "but what you get now is a lot more than what you got back then (more/faster RAM, SSDs instead of hard drives and so on), but still: one of the problem with the Mac Pros, besides being outdated and overprices, is that one somehow is forced to pay for something one doesn't need (monitor cards which are very useful for video pros). 

I just want a configurable Mac Pro/MacBook Pro, where I pay whatever it takes to get the kind of Mac I need. The whole Mac Mini Downgrade episode tells me that Apple doesn't want to allow people to select the fastest Mac they can buy, with a variety of choices in all price/power ranges. Unless that will change, I'll stick to my 8-core Mac Pro, and keep watching that several of my friends who are die-ard Mac fans are running their studios in Hackintoshes. 

Apple is doing something wrong, because that is happening all over the place. And this leads to lower sales numbers which agains causes even higher prices and so forth. Not good.


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## synthpunk (Mar 7, 2017)

I didn't take it that way Nick I thought we were having a great conversation about both sides of the coin get it ? 



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Anyway, I didn't mean to call anyone who bought the black Mac a chump! It's a very nice machine. My issue is only that it's too expensive from my point of view - and it's aging every day.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 7, 2017)

Got it. 

Let's put it this way: if that machine were anywhere close to half its price I'd have bought one long ago. Instead I kept my 2008 machine for nine years and just replaced it with an upgraded 8-year-old machine.

Now, the positive side is that the 2008 8-core is still very powerful. Had I known I'd get wronged by eBay when I sold it, I'd have kept it as a spare and not known the difference most of the time if I'd had to use it.

(They auto-filled incorrect specs in the listing, including that it had a 240GB SSD in it, which it didn't. It wasn't the buyer's fault, so I had to send him one of mine at my expense. The more I think about this, the more upset I get at how dishonorable they are. :( )


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 8, 2017)

I am totally with Nick here. The "Vader helmet" is way too expensive. And non-upgradeable (graphics+CPU-wise). And Thunderbolt is so much slower than PCI. Really... this machine was a mistake IMHO.

One year ago I bought a 12-core 3.46 Ghz tower for $2200 - I then got a 4K gfx card for around $400 - and was then able to use my PCI UAD-2 card, RME soundcard and add a PCI SSD-card internally as well as having 6 SSD drives on the SATA connections.

Buying a just as powerful - possibly a little less powerful, possible a little more, who knows - new Mac Pro would have set me back $6.500 - and that's not counting the new drive enclosures etc. I would have had to add to that. And if it breaks down I am seriously screwed whereas I have a lot of options to get the tower fixed - also I have a 6-core standing by as backup that I can just pop all my disks in and I'll be up and running.

Seriously... that was a bad call and I am sure Apple have been punished for it with lackluster sales.


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## lpuser (Mar 8, 2017)

Simon Ravn said:


> Really... this machine was a mistake IMHO.



Yes, especially when looking at some benchmarks for the entry level cylinder. It really is very bad for the price tag and worse considering the non-upgradability.

The old tower is internally one of the best designed computers I ever saw (and I saw a lot since the 80s). This machine was built with expansibility and quality in mind to an extent that every PC user I have shown the inside of the Mac Pro was just blown away. I really wished Apple would stop with all this excessive "thin-ness" and "small-ness" and finally create a computer that´s worth it. I could not care less about how big or how tall a computer is.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 8, 2017)

Simon Ravn said:


> I am totally with Nick here. The "Vader helmet" is way too expensive. And non-upgradeable (graphics+CPU-wise). And Thunderbolt is so much slower than PCI. Really... this machine was a mistake IMHO.
> .



I really doubt that for what we do, there is a significant difference. I went from a RME pci-e audio interface to an Apogee Thunderbolt one and the latency is as low. I stream samples from SSDS in e-SATA housings connected to a a 1st gen Thunderbolt hub and it is plenty fast. TB 2 and 3 are even faster.

But yes, it is too expensive for what it is IMHO. That said, if I were getting the same budgets I got twenty years ago, I would have one. As is, I am awaiting a newer faster iMac to replace my late 2012 one.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2017)

Simon, I remember your post right after you got that machine. It stuck in my mind when I followed suit, and you were right.

Whether the black MP was a mistake, I dunno. But I agree with Ipuser 100% about how brilliant the old tower case is (leaving aside that I had to run a cable to an external Wi-Fi antenna for Bluetooth). I too have six hard drives inside that case, and I'm not sure what the advantage is to a small computer with a bunch of stuff hanging off it.

For that matter, how many people do you know who say "I'm MUST upgrade to the latest iPhone! It's a full .25mm thinner than my current one!"

Jay, to paraphrase what a friend said about 96K years ago: Thunderbolt can kiss my ass.  The latest is that it's on a USB-C connector, along with USB 3.1 and all the USB variants. It solves no problems for me.

Anyway, I think the subtext is what I rant about all the time: computers reached a plateau where they're powerful enough for what we need them to do a few years ago.


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## synthpunk (Mar 8, 2017)

Just curious what was the list prices on the cheese graters 5 - 9 years ago ?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2017)

They were about $3k new, I believe.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Mar 8, 2017)

Interesting thread.
So forgive my feeble brain. What happens (hypothetically) say in 12 months time if that all the "big player" companies stop support for the last OSX version that will work on the 5.1's ?

Sierra is already having problems with 5.1's someone mentioned to me.

Is it a case of making do and perhaps missing out on certain libraries should Kontakt no longer work?
I'm just curious as i've never been in that position having only been buying Kontakt libraries the past 2 years.

I've no doubt the 5.1's will run and run but surely the companies will decide what runs on it.
I understand at worst it could be run as a slave computer but hope i'm making sense.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2017)

What are the problems with Sierra on 5,1s, Kaufmanmoon?

The only issues I'm having don't seem to be related to it: Time Machine failing the second back-up until I dis/reconnect its bus-powered USB drive, and a recurring message about Javascript or something... maybe it's not Java, it's one of those things.

That's not to say there aren't issues I don't know about, just that I haven't encountered any problems.

Oh, and the other thing is that Handoff and Continuity require a $100+ Bluetooth 4.0/Wi-Fi card if you want to use them.


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## synthpunk (Mar 8, 2017)

Thanks Nick I went from a G5, to a two core iMac, to a four core Mac Mini, to a 6 core Mac Pro Vader helmet so I missed the cheese graters.

Ps someone else mentioned the Vader helmet MP's not having upgradeable processors but there are plenty of people who have upgraded theres to 10 and 12 core processors.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> They were about $3k new, I believe.


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## synthpunk (Mar 8, 2017)

Jay check with @passsacaglia he just got the latest greatest iMac 27" and it's benchmarks are great. The only thing I could see Holding Out for would be a 6 core or 8 core with 64g ram but that could be a pipedream.



Ashermusic said:


> I really doubt that for what we do, there is a significant difference. I went from a RME pci-e audio interface to an Apogee Thunderbolt one and the latency is as low. I stream samples from SSDS in e-SATA housings connected to a a 1st gen Thunderbolt hub and it is plenty fast. TB 2 and 3 are even faster.
> 
> But yes, it is too expensive for what it is IMHO. That said, if I were getting the same budgets I got twenty years ago, I would have one. As is, I am awaiting a newer faster iMac to replace my late 2012 one.


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## Symfoniq (Mar 8, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Jay check with @passsacaglia he just got the latest greatest iMac 27" and it's benchmarks are great. The only thing I could see Holding Out for would be a 6 core or 8 core with 64g ram but that could be a pipedream.



The "latest greatest" iMac was released in October of 2015. Even MacRumors recommends against purchasing this model in their Buyer's Guide. It is long overdue for an update.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2017)

The MacRumors Buyer's Guide is based on historical product cycles. That may or may not be relevant today - as per this thread!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 8, 2017)

By the way, if anyone's in the market for a 5,1:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Mac-Pro-3-46Ghz-12-Core-MB535LL-A-CTO-64GB-RAM-1TB-HDD-nVidia-GT120-/222039342303?hash=item33b2937cdf:g:kAEAAOSwOyJX8A7d


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## Prockamanisc (Mar 8, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> The only thing I could see Holding Out for would be a 6 core or 8 core with 64g ram but that could be a pipedream


I think USB-C will be included in the upcoming versions, and that will help out with future compatibility among your devices, as well as increase transfer speeds. No lie, I spent about 1 week just transferring files. USB-C would have been very welcome.


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## Kaufmanmoon (Mar 9, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> What are the problems with Sierra on 5,1s, Kaufmanmoon?
> 
> The only issues I'm having don't seem to be related to it: Time Machine failing the second back-up until I dis/reconnect its bus-powered USB drive, and a recurring message about Javascript or something... maybe it's not Java, it's one of those things.
> 
> ...



Nick, sorry. I was misreading on the Sierra problem. Just people are updating firmware from 4.1 to 5.1 to make it work.
I'm still intrigued. Create pro say there's maybe 5 years life in a 5.1 (they would say that of course) but I've yet fall down on either side of this Vader/cheese argument 
(I'm now picturing Darth Vader sat in the Star Wars Cantina with a piece of Brie)


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## Simon Ravn (Mar 9, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Thanks Nick I went from a G5, to a two core iMac, to a four core Mac Mini, to a 6 core Mac Pro Vader helmet so I missed the cheese graters.
> 
> Ps someone else mentioned the Vader helmet MP's not having upgradeable processors but there are plenty of people who have upgraded theres to 10 and 12 core processors.



Oh sure - and a 12-core 2.7Ghz CPU is only around $4.000 a pop. Dual CPU solution is just as/more powerful and much cheaper.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 9, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Jay check with @passsacaglia he just got the latest greatest iMac 27" and it's benchmarks are great. The only thing I could see Holding Out for would be a 6 core or 8 core with 64g ram but that could be a pipedream.




I'm sure but I would be massively annoyed to buy one now and six months later see a more powerful one. The barn isn't burning here so I will wait a bit.


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## sherief83 (Mar 9, 2017)

Simon Ravn said:


> I am totally with Nick here. The "Vader helmet" is way too expensive. And non-upgradeable (graphics+CPU-wise). And Thunderbolt is so much slower than PCI. Really... this machine was a mistake IMHO.
> 
> One year ago I bought a 12-core 3.46 Ghz tower for $2200 - I then got a 4K gfx card for around $400 - and was then able to use my PCI UAD-2 card, RME soundcard and add a PCI SSD-card internally as well as having 6 SSD drives on the SATA connections.
> 
> ...



One vote for this!

I went the same way when I had the chance to spend on a new mac, the PCIX expansion alone is absolutely a must and allowed me to add the RME Aio and two PCI ssd cards and those towers can upgrade to 128gb of Ram should you want for way way WAY less price than the newer Mac pros and the Ram speed is seriously unnoticeable. 

To me, though what really sold me on the Towers is the fact that I can install everything Inside and then basically wires going to my Monitors, display, keyboard and keyboard controller and thats it...SIMPLE. Something Apple is missing on Big time in the Pro world. I Genuinely hate external this and that, gets messy and too many things to connect and disconnect.


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## Xaviez (Mar 9, 2017)

If I want to buy one of them old towers, what should I be looking for? Sorry if this is off-topic.


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## Jack Weaver (Mar 9, 2017)

See what Nick Batzdorf posted in reply #84. 

.


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## NameOfBand (Mar 9, 2017)

Saxer said:


> I'm fine with my 2013 Vader helmet but that will not last forever.


Totally off topic but why do people call it Vader helmet? Have you guys even seen Star Wars? It looks nothing like Vader's helmet if you ask me.


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## synthpunk (Mar 9, 2017)

I Believe Christian Henson coined it in a Spitfire studio tour video. I would also suggest looking up the definition of parody and watch Space Balls.



NameOfBand said:


> Totally off topic but why do people call it Vader helmet? Have you guys even seen Star Wars? It looks nothing like Vader's helmet if you ask me.


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## Soundhound (Mar 9, 2017)

Here's a long, tedious take on the state of the Mac. Not sure what the upshot is but it does seem that it's not a big part of their business. 

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/03/05/editorial-the-future-of-apples-macintosh


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## chimuelo (Mar 9, 2017)

_Think I'm starting to learn what Pro really means.

Connectivity and Industry Standards..

_


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## lpuser (Mar 11, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Ps someone else mentioned the Vader helmet MP's not having upgradeable processors but there are plenty of people who have upgraded theres to 10 and 12 core processors.



Yes, OWC has thankfully posted a detailed video:


And if you watch closely, the disassembly required is nuts! On the Mac Pro Tower, it is just: Lift hatch, open CPU-board lock and slide out the CPU board. Then you can start replacing the CPU.
What is required for the Vader is a drama and clearly the result of Apple´s stupid notion of making stuff so thin and small that repairing / replacing will result in always more work. Again ... a workstation (!) should not be measured by how small it is, but how easily accessible and expandable everything is.

P.S.: GPU is obviously still not replaceable on the cyclinder Mac Pro.


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## mc_deli (Mar 13, 2017)

Soundhound said:


> Here's a long, tedious take on the state of the Mac. Not sure what the upshot is but it does seem that it's not a big part of their business.
> 
> http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/03/05/editorial-the-future-of-apples-macintosh


Very interesting read. Hardware licensing is a sore point for me as I got burned 20 years ago with an Apple licensed tower.

The main point I take is that there just isn't a transformative leap for Apple to take in desktops (if 2013 was about size).

As pointed out in this thread and elsewhere they are missing out on sales. Something like a minor change to the dustbin (fewer processor options, tb3 over usb-c) combined with dropping support for cheese graters with osx11. This would be the way to drive sales with minimum effort. Still doesn't fit the company M.O. though. Bizarre.


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