# BWW Clarinet vs. 8Dio Claire Clarinet



## Aakaash Rao (Aug 11, 2013)

I'll be expanding my woodwind palate soon and am on the fence as to whether I should go completely with BWW, or stick with Albion for ensembles and go with the 8Dio Claire series, as they're completed. At the moment, I'm primarily interested in the solo clarinet. I'll be using it in a classical or classical-like context (no klezmer or jazz ). Can anyone who owns both libraries comment on the sound and ease of use of both libraries? 

I also own the 8Dio Oboe and quite like it. How does the BWW oboe compare?

Thanks!


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

You want to buy BWW for the clarinet? :D


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

It's an amazing library, BWW. I am in love with it, the playability is amazing, you can tweak so much, you get a lot of solo instruments (and sections). also can switch between soloists and instruments, for example 1st clarinet, 2d clarinet, et c.

W


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## Aakaash Rao (Aug 11, 2013)

Walid F. @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> You want to buy BWW for the clarinet? :D



Haha, not _just_ for the clarinet (though I'll admit that it's a big draw  ). I'm definitely quite interested in the other instruments; I'm just wondering if I can get by with Albion and EWQLSO ensembles and use 8Dio instruments for solo parts. Thanks for your advice! At the moment I am leaning towards picking up BWW.


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

Aakaash Rao @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> Walid F. @ Sun Aug 11 said:
> 
> 
> > You want to buy BWW for the clarinet? :D
> ...



What I can say is that if you get BWW, you will NOT be unsatisfied. It is the best library i have ever had the pleasure of owning. As a matter of fact, I'm picking up the expansion quite soon, as I'm a huge fan of bass clarinet and contrabassoon :D

W


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## BenG (Aug 11, 2013)

I don't own both however with regards to the sound from demos, they seems rather comparable. Very similar tone in my opinion. Though with BWW you really get an all in one option which mixes together great out of the box.


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## Aakaash Rao (Aug 11, 2013)

Thanks Ben. I didn't find too many demos of the BWW clarinet, so I was interested to see what you guys thought.


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

Aakaash Rao @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> Thanks Ben. I didn't find too many demos of the BWW clarinet, so I was interested to see what you guys thought.



let me make a few for you! 

W


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## Aakaash Rao (Aug 11, 2013)

Walid F. @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> Aakaash Rao @ Sun Aug 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Ben. I didn't find too many demos of the BWW clarinet, so I was interested to see what you guys thought.
> ...



Thanks Walid, that's very kind of you.


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

Here's an excerpt from a game score I'm writing with one of the solo clarinets leading:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/catharsis_kays_theme_1_1.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/127 ... me_1_1.mp3)

And here's a completely dry fiddling around with all 3 instruments: 1st Clarinet, 2nd Clarinet (0:33) and then Clarinet ensemble (1:10). I really loooove the trills you can do with these (they have recorded trills from a semitone up to a full fifth (im doing a bit of them with 1st clarinet in the "demo")).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/VERY_raw_clarinet_fiddling_NOreverb.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/127 ... reverb.mp3)

enjoy! let me know if you need anything else from BWW as I love to play around with this library 

W


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## playz123 (Aug 11, 2013)

IMHO, BWW is your best choice overall, but if you also have Albion then it's a 'no brainer'.  You'll need some additional reverb to match BWW to the Albion venue, but it's quite easy to do with a plugin like Spaces.


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

(sorry if i highjack your thread tiny bit here!) anyone have the Expansion A for BWW? I would love to hear little quick demo for the bass clarinet and contrabassoon. there's too little with their demos... talking mainly about the cb now. the bass clarinet sounds awesome on their demos!

W


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## Aakaash Rao (Aug 11, 2013)

Walid F. @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> (sorry if i highjack your thread tiny bit here!) anyone have the Expansion A for BWW? I would love to hear little quick demo for the bass clarinet and contrabassoon. there's too little with their demos...
> 
> W



Not at all - those demos sound great. I'm pretty much convinced at this point.


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

Aakaash Rao @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> Not at all - those demos sound great. I'm pretty much convinced at this point.



glad i could shine some light on it! i absolutely love that library. the bassoons are amazing... the whole damn thing is awesome. i just wish they had recorded and programmed the english horn better than that, it just sounds not that good. but that's the only thing i can complain about of the whole library! the rest is 10/10. 

W


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

All woodwinds in this are from BWW, except for the very very low Albion 3 Iceni woods (which just blends in behind):

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/catharsis_the_arch_2.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/127 ... arch_2.mp3)

hmm.. i think i have to get expansion A now. Im convincing myself about these woods from orchestral tools ahah.

W


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## BenG (Aug 11, 2013)

I recently purchased the Exp A and it sounds great but it will need an update to get to the level of the full lib. But all the basic material is there and it really shines. Playability on certain patches, like the legato has some issues, but is easily fixable in future versions.


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## Walid F. (Aug 11, 2013)

BenG @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> I recently purchased the Exp A and it sounds great but it will need an update to get to the level of the full lib. But all the basic material is there and it really shines. Playability on certain patches, like the legato has some issues, but is easily fixable in future versions.



shut up and take my money! (haha just kidding!)

will definitely get this.  loving the warm sound of the BCl.

W


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## Graham Keitch (Aug 11, 2013)

Aakaash Rao @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> I also own the 8Dio Oboe and quite like it. How does the BWW oboe compare?
> 
> Thanks!




I own both and for me BWW is streets ahead. I thought I was picking up something really special when I bought the 8dio oboe. It has it's uses and sounds quite good for the odd bar or two when you need a lot of expression. But next to BWW, it sounds harsh and I quickly tire of it. I'm coming at this from a concert / orchestral perspective which is probably not the target audience for 8dio. Don't forget, BWW gives you two oboes to choose from plus lots of other woods - but it is ofcourse more expensive.


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## BenG (Aug 11, 2013)

Walid F. @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> BenG @ Sun Aug 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I recently purchased the Exp A and it sounds great but it will need an update to get to the level of the full lib. But all the basic material is there and it really shines. Playability on certain patches, like the legato has some issues, but is easily fixable in future versions.
> ...



The Eb actually sounds amazing as well. All the clarinets really sound great.


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## StevenOBrien (Aug 11, 2013)

To sum it up, the BWW clarinet has very tight legato (I use it much more for ensemble sections where it's hidden behind other woodwinds), and the 8dio clarinet has very loose legato (Good for solos, especially lyrical ones). I also prefer the short patches on BWW to 8dio's ones. Also with BWW, you get two different clarinets.

If you had to get one, I'd probably recommend the 8dio clarinet, seeing as you could probably use it in more scenarios than BWW's clarinet. Really though, both are useful for different circumstances.

With regards to the oboes, it's pretty much the same situation, except the 8dioboe's legato is even looser and even more expressive than the clarinet. I find with the oboe, I have to spend a lot of time messing around with the timing of the notes so that the legato matches up with everything else. The result is worth it though!

When looking for virtual instruments, I used to try and figure out which one was "the best", but over time, I've come to realize that there are really just a lot of great instruments out there that have their own strengths and weaknesses. Some work better than others in different scenarios, there's no magical "one-size-fits-all" instrument. 

So, if you eventually can, you should purchase both. You won't regret it, they're both fantastic .


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## Hendrik-Schwarzer (Aug 11, 2013)

@Walid: I've made a walkthrough video for the Expansion A some weeks ago.

http://youtu.be/LHj5CzTH7ZQ

BTW: Expansion B is on the way. More info will follow soon.

Best, Hendrik


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## Casiquire (Aug 11, 2013)

I keep glancing at BWW and wondering how useful it would be for me, so here's a question: how dry does the sound get? I'm the type who loves taking dry sounds and mixing them from there. LASS is about as wet as I want to get. I know BWW has close mics, right?

My only other concern is that compared with my VSL winds it sounds like BWW's crossfades aren't always as smooth...how is this in practice?

Anyway thanks for all the input here, it's very useful for people who are hunting for info and demos!


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## Dave Connor (Aug 11, 2013)

It's difficult to find the price in US dollars for BWW. Anyone know? They sound excellent.


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## Mr. Anxiety (Aug 11, 2013)

I absolutely love the BWW. I am using them in my animation project, using the close mics with the tree mics at -6. It is the sound I am looking for.

If only the dynamic crossfading could be improved. I was very used to riding cc1 during my performances to get the dynamic changes right, but unfortunately I cannot really do it with the library as it stands....... to much chorusing/phasing. 

The boys have allowed the dynamic layer patches to be used separately, which can work it certain contexts, but with out filtering and envelope tweaking, this is not a very complete workaround.

It is uncomfortable for me to make this statement, but I'm not the first to say it. Hopefully the OrchTools team can take a page form the book of Sample Modeling, VSL or even Chris Hein to get this sorted out.

As I said, I love the library!

Mr A


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## BenG (Aug 11, 2013)

Casiquire @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> I keep glancing at BWW and wondering how useful it would be for me, so here's a question: how dry does the sound get? I'm the type who loves taking dry sounds and mixing them from there. LASS is about as wet as I want to get. I know BWW has close mics, right?
> 
> My only other concern is that compared with my VSL winds it sounds like BWW's crossfades aren't always as smooth...how is this in practice?
> 
> Anyway thanks for all the input here, it's very useful for people who are hunting for info and demos!



With regards to the "dry-ness", I would say that using only the dry mics are very close to the sound of LASS. It maybe be a tiny bit wetter but not by very much. Of course you can mix to your own taste. (Personally, I'm using the close mics at 60% and the room mics set at 30%)


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## MrCambiata (Aug 11, 2013)

I have the Claire Clarinet and just love the sound of the legato patches. The shorts are not as good, in my opinion, but still usable.


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## re-peat (Aug 12, 2013)

Dave Connor @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> (...) They sound excellent.


I can’t agree, I’m afraid. I wish I could, but I can’t. BWW really should have been it, shouldn’t it? On paper, this was going to be the woodwinds-library to make us forget all others: top-class players, great sounding recording venue, and a passionate and musically very gifted producer/developer … 
Alas, alas, alas, for some strange reason, BWW ended up, to my ears anyway, containing some of the most character-less and sterile-sounding woodwind-samples I have ever loaded into Kontakt. Its oboe, English horn and clarinet in particular sound almost interestingly lifeless. Sampled instruments do death for a living, we know that, but some of BWW’s instruments seem to take this concept to its most unmusical extreme, if you ask me.

By comparison, 8dio’s woodwinds ooze with life, character and expressive possibilities. A bit of a shame that 8dio seems to insist on teasing us with occasional sloppy and hasty programming (which I find rather disappointing) and that their idea of ‘deep sampling’ doesn’t quite agree with mine in the ‘deep’ department, but even so and all things considered: to my ears, the three 8dio woodwinds are far, far superior ― both timbrally and expressively ― to their Berlin counterparts.

Be that as it may or mayn’t, BWW has indeed many devoted fans, as this thread shows once again, and my opinion is certainly not worth listening to more than several others, so you can ignore it altogether of course. (I would advice against it though.)

There still isn’t a truly pro, top-quality woodwinds library commercialy available at the moment, is there, really? And the older libraries certainly aren’t outplayed by the new ones, as they often are for the other sections of the orchestra. Virtual woodwinds, it seems, is still a bit of mess. At the moment, there’s some useful bits here, some useful bits there, half a solution here, half a solution there, but a serious, comprehensive, well-played, well-recorded, well-programmed and excellent-sounding library simply doesn’t exist yet. (I had rather high hopes for SampleModeling’s take on woodwinds, and I still am optimistic, but their clarinet wasn’t exactly the most promising of starts. Pity.)

Still a whole lot of empty chairs in the woodwind section of my virtual orchestra …

_


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## muk (Aug 12, 2013)

Well, tastes differ, and I find BWW to be wonderful. However, for some strange reason, VSL is often overlooked in the woodwinds departement.
n my opinion, VSL woodwinds are absolutely gorgeous, deep sampled (for real, this time!), and if you have VI Pro they can be used with one of the best software n samples departement. Plus, they are completely dry.
So, before you decide, I'd give VSL a listen. They are different than BWW, but sonically on par.


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## Hannes_F (Aug 12, 2013)

Walid F. @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> Here's an excerpt from a game score I'm writing with one of the solo clarinets leading:
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/catharsis_kay%27s_theme_1_1.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/127 ... me_1_1.mp3)



Walid,

could you please re-upload this without any ' ? Thanks


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## Walid F. (Aug 12, 2013)

Hannes_F @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Walid F. @ Sun Aug 11 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's an excerpt from a game score I'm writing with one of the solo clarinets leading:
> ...



yep, here it is now: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12797960/catharsis_kays_theme_1_1.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/127 ... me_1_1.mp3)

W


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## Walid F. (Aug 12, 2013)

Sascha Knorr @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Just some thoughts from someone who has been quite extensivly involved in BWW's development, be it as a tester, cosultant, demo composer and last but not least user:
> 
> The "main" BWW library and its Expansion A are desgined with the orchestral section "Woodwinds" in mind. They are designed to be able to perform typical orchestral woodwind parts in an ensemble fashion. Therefor there are 3 Flutes, 2 Oboes, etc. So the main focus of those two libraries was not the most expressive and soloistic legato, but a fairly large amount of articulations, which fit and blend together as best as possible to perform all kinds of orchestral woodwind phrases, be it runs, ornaments, colorations, etc. BWW and EXP A are also able to perform wonderful homophonic woodwind choirs with a beautiful blended sound - thats where the Teldex room displays its power.
> 
> ...



+1


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## jamwerks (Aug 12, 2013)

Just my 2 cents here...

The great things about BWW imo are the extensive shorts (4), plus double and triple tongue. On the shorts end, Claire has only 1 (staccatissimo).

Also love the Trems up to a perfect 5th. Don't think Claire has that. Really needed for orchestral writing, just look at page 2 or 3 of any John Williams score.

Love the multi instruments in BWW

BWW 1.5 is better than 1.1 phasing-wise, but there is sometimes a bit still there. I don't hear that in Claire, or in the CWW's, so there must be some programming tricks. If I'm not mistaken, Chris Hein says he's found it (also) !

Personally, I'm not a fan of the audio engineering in BWW (sorry to repeat myself). When I hear anything SP, 8dio, CS or EW, the engineering sticks-out as particularily awesome. Here, I don't "love" any of the different mic positions. The "room" (decca-tree) sounds like more signal coming from the sides than straight-on, the close is too close (imo), and the "mix" has the same problems to my ears as the "rooms". Just not in love with the tone.

The legato in the new Contrebassoon, sounded jumpy to me on first playing. I'll check that out again tomorrow, and either correct myself or post an excerpt.

Even though I have CWW, BWW, HOW (& VSL), I may still have to buy the new Spitfire stuff...


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## Graham Keitch (Aug 12, 2013)

I agree wirh Sascha - BWW is at it's best in an orchestral setting and as far as I'm aware that's been stated in one way or another since outset. In that context, I can't fault it's sound or programming. 

Graham


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## jamwerks (Aug 12, 2013)

Sascha Knorr @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Can you explain to me what exactly you don't like about the sound? Or maybe you can provide an example of your own?!


I've heard several of your mock-ups with BWW, and while I enjoy the writing, I'm just not in "love" with the sound. Just to be clear, I like it, just don't love it. I don't know that much about engineering, but it seems the reflections (floor, room) part of the signal is stronger than the direct signal. Hard to say with words.

I will get some examples up in the next few days, as I'm making a big change (Mac to PC, DP to Cubase, etc).

BTW, was there any name engineer involved in the project? In one of the video's we see Hendrik himself pushing the faders, which surprised me.


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## BenG (Aug 12, 2013)

I couldn't agree with Sascha more about this. Every library should be treated different and used in unique situations that fit their abilities. For BWW, that's ensemble writing whether it be full orchestra or just winds, Berlin Woodwinds mixes perfectly. 

As an orchestral woodwind player myself for many years, I can tell you that you approach playing in an ensemble is much different than performing a solo. The goal of ensemble playing is to blend, first and foremost, while solos are the complete opposite. You are supposed to shine, play expressively, etc.

For exposed solo parts, I probably use samples at all. The main reason I use samples is because I can't afford to hire an orchestra, a soloist on the other hand is very affordable and definitely worth it.


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## bmiller360 (Aug 12, 2013)

I found in issue with the 8Dio clarinet that for me, makes it very tough to use. They programmed all the held notes with this very annoying arc within them. It's like a swell in the middle of each sample and is unusable for me. This little swell in every note drove me a bit nuts. I emailed 8Dio to ask about this and they simply believe that the swell is part of an authentic sound. As a former woodwind player, this is something I never did unless it was marked to do so on the part. As a current composer, the player that did this would not be asked back on the next date. This influenced me to be very wary of all of their stuff...I'd not touch the new oboe, since i'm sure it's there. THAT SAID, their demo on the website sounds great. I have no idea why it sounds so good, but speaking as an owner of the clarinet, I have not been able to get past this "flaw"!


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## re-peat (Aug 12, 2013)

Sasha,

I tried to illustrate my misgivings about BWW with an audio example, and *here* it is. Oboe, English horn and clarinet, in two different legato settings.
I don’t know about you, but to me this sounds pretty unsatisfactory throughout. And I’m not talking about the hastily put-together mock-up elements, or the one-patch ensemble strings carpet, but strictly about the timbre, the expression, the character and the identity of these virtual woodwinds. I mixed them a little bit more upfront than where they normally sit in a mix, to avoid getting distracted too much by the strings which are only here to provide some harmonic direction.

(Even though this is very much hurried work, lacking much of the detail I would normally spend time on, I did my best to work with CC#01 and CC#11 as much as required, so as to make sure not to misrepresent these instruments.)

There is, I'm sorry to say, not a second that I can believe this threesome. (Like I never believe them in most other demo's or examples I've heard.) They hang above the strings like three dead synthesized tapeworms, with only the shallowest suggestion of the (real) instrument they’re supposed to emulate.
The English horn in particular, I think any honest man or woman will agree, is a major fail. (I am aware I didn’t present this instrument in its most characteristic register, which is somewhat lower than the tune I gave these instruments, but even so: things sound simply too bad, unless one believes that an English horn has all the seductive allure and sonic appeal of a cross between a cheap melodica and a pulse wave.) 
And the oboe and clarinet are only marginally better.

Also notice how there is often a distinct difference in timbre going from one note to the next, which again kills all hope of ever managing to stitch together believable phrases with these samples.

And even we ignore the unfortunate, much-discussed doubling when modulating between velocity layers (very much noticeable in the second section), the sound itself (of the single layers) simply never convinces. At least, it doesn’t to me. And it’s got nothing to do with ‘close-up’ or ‘out-of-focus’ I believe, no, it’s that strange, blood-less pale-skinned synthetic emptyness which I’ve always found such a big disappointment in this library.

_


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## handz (Aug 12, 2013)

re-peat - mmm, well, I must say I have to agree with you here, in your example, the WW sounds dead and lifeless. 

May I know what are your ww of choice nowdays? Did you experimented with HWW lately?


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## germancomponist (Aug 12, 2013)

handz @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> re-peat - mmm, well, I must say I have to agree with you here, in your example, the WW sounds dead and lifeless.



+1


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## re-peat (Aug 12, 2013)

Sasha,

Following your explicit and unequivocal request for an example ― that is what you asked for with _“Can you explain to me what exactly you don't like about the sound? Or maybe you can provide an example of your own?!”_, isn’t it? ― I simply made an example to illustrate what it is that I don’t like about BWW. If you're not happy with what I came up with, truly sorry, but you *did* ask, didn’t you? If BWW had sounded better, my example would have sounded better too. Simple as that.

And believe me, contrary to what you suggest, I would love nothing more than to care very, very much about the strengths this library might have. It's not that I buy these things just to be able to whine and complain about them, you know. I would have loved to be able to sing BWW's praises and share my enthusiasm about its strengths. It’s just that I can’t find all that many. 

_


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## Hendrik-Schwarzer (Aug 12, 2013)

@jamwerks: What you saw in the video was me riding the faders to simulate the vibrato for the flutes... :-D

I really trust in the engineer we have at Teldex. We had the same amazing setup like David Newman and Danny Elfman used on their 
scoring sessions there. We don´t need any famous engineer (altough you can take a look on the Grammy gallery at the Teldex entrance  ).

I really understand what you mean with that direct vs room sound. And I agree with you although it isn´t any bug for me.
I´ve done several orchestral recordings in my career sofar and especialy in soundtrack styled music the close mics of the WWs are used pretty often.
Not only for solos, sometimes the engineer is looking for a more direct intimate sound on specific passages.
Correct me if I´m wrong but they play with the close vs room thing much more than e.g. for brass or strings. It´s something you can hear on many JW soundtracks too.
For me the more diffused sound of the WWs in BWW is a real plus because that´s an effect I missed in all the libraries before and always expirienced it on real recordings.
What BWW does pretty well and what I´m proud about it, is the blending with all the other instruments in the orchestra. Before I had BWW, the sampled WWs always appeared more isolated.
That´s why I invested so much money and hard work to do it in such a great room like Teldex.

@re-peat: Boring mockup = boring sound. I´m not that surprised.
I´ve to agree that your example sounds dead but I heared much more compositions where BWW really shines.
Sascha really understood the concept behind BWW. It´s made as an orchestral seated, ensemble oriented library.
With its 2nd and 3rd instruments you can achieve pretty realistic WW choirs. The legato is made for flexible, agile playing, etc.
Is BWW the best library to create expressive solistic passages? Probaply not the best although several instruments handle that 
pretty well in specific situations (like Flute 1 or Clarinet 1 e.g.). But maybe a library really made for solistic passages aren´t the best
to integrate them into a extensive WW writing within the orchestra.

The thing is, BWW doesn´t unfolds it´s magical sound on just a single WW line. This library lives with the orchestra around it. And that´s what I made it for.

Best,
Hendrik


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## re-peat (Aug 12, 2013)

Makes perfect sense what you say, Hendrik, it really does, and I'll keep it in mind, but if a supposedly quality library like BWW isn't even capable of dealing reasonably successfully with the simplest of simple lines like the ones I threw at it in my example, then I am unfortunately unable to ignore the feelings of disappointment as expressed in my previous posts.
See, if I give these same lines to some other libraries, that same disappointment never seems to materialize, or not the same extent or pertaining to the same issues anyway. Why is that, you think?

And one other thing: the sound is not boring because the mock-up is boring. It's the other way round: the mock-up is boring (a verdict I very much agree with) because the sounds are boring. Like I said: if BWW had sounded better by itself, my example would have done so too. I may have a lot of flaws, but complete incompetence when it comes to working with virtual instruments is not one of them.

_


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## AC986 (Aug 12, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Dave Connor @ Mon Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) They sound excellent.
> ...



Yeah I'm a woodwind player (oboe) and I would go along with that appraisal totally. 8DIO please please get your programming in good order and you will get my money. A pal of mine has the 8DIO OBOE and I tried it on his rig and for some slow things it's not bad. Until then though, there aren't really any good WW libraries IMO out there.That said, I have an almost inert ability to get anything, not just woodwinds that have not been recorded in a good space. BWW have been recorded in good space but for some reason don't sound like anything I ever heard sitting in a WW section playing live in a recording studio or hall. I am short on cash and short on patience when it comes to this stuff and in the end I think you go with what sounds good to your ears but alas, a lot of ears out there never heard anything real or otherwise IMO.


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## jamwerks (Aug 12, 2013)

Sascha Knorr @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Thats quite intentional in this case but maybe I should try to work more with the close mics and mix them in to get a more direct sound,.



I don't mean focus by close mic's, I mean focus in the main mic's. Even in a bright room like Air studios, Spitfire's main mic's have "focus" (for lack of a better word). I hear the instrument direct and first reflection off the floor, and at a lower level in the signal, a lovely room (same goes for the main mic's at Sony (CS) and in the EW libraries.

In BWW main mic's, the room is very high in the signal, so much so that I thought the room mic's were actually surround mic's (pointed backwards), but they're not. The direct signal is too low for my taste. My ear just gets lost, but that's just me.

Hendrik has explained above. I understand his choice. Everybody has there own taste.

As for Re-peats example, what's so boring? There are some savey harmonies and melodic writing there (imo). What he's calling lifeless is what I call "my ears getting lost". With more CC01 & 11 it could have been a bit better maybe.

I'm still happy I purchased BWW. The runs, tremolos, and shorts make it worth it to me.


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## Darryl Jackson (Aug 12, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> The English horn in particular, I think any honest man or woman will agree, is a major fail. (I am aware I didn’t present this instrument in its most characteristic register, which is somewhat lower than the tune I gave these instruments, but even so: things sound simply too bad, unless one believes that an English horn has all the seductive allure and sonic appeal of a cross between a cheap melodica and a pulse wave.)



I really have to agree on that. Hendrik, I actually *love *the library overall but -please- do something about the english horn! 

It is not good, but fairly tolerable in the lower register, while it's absolutely horrendous in the upper register in the majority of situations. I've found that if I use only the room mics, play at a very slow tempo, keep the English horn static at the library's piano or forte dynamic (as in use a single layer with no mod wheel variation ever) and instead ride CC 11, I can occasionally get the beautiful tone that I love out of it, but I often do end up with a result like Piet's, even with those tweaks. That's not really a matter of ensemble vs solo performance-- I feel that the tone is just very poor for that one instrument. Based on this thread and others, it seems to be a common opinion... http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30182&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=35

That said, the english horn is my one (but very major) disappointment with BWW. For my uses, I've found that they work -extremely- well in context, including in brief exposed passages. For significant solo performances 8Dio might be better, although I have gotten burned by their scripting as well.

Another note for Hendrik while he's here: as mentioned earlier in the thread, please take a look at the legato in some of the Exp A instruments before expecting us to go wild about the idea of buying Exp B (as exciting as that announcement is!). The 1.6 solution for the original instruments worked perfectly, I would be extremely happy with the same legato solution applied to Exp A.


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## Casiquire (Aug 12, 2013)

Wow, this thread is really popular. Thanks for all the info everybody! I think BWW sounds like an awesome LASS-for-woodwinds kind of library, but just like LASS it probably isn't best for soloists. I currently get along just fine with VSL's woodwinds for ensembles, though, so is there a library out there that handles good, expressive solo playing?


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## duanran007 (Aug 12, 2013)

As a happy BWW user, I'd love to show my support by posting this unfinished/rough little excerpt.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5717805/Luotianyi%20Valse/song%20unfinished%20-%20instrumental%20without%20vocal%20line.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/571 ... 20line.mp3)

All woodwinds are BWW besides there is one oboe from VSL(only used for one phrase.)

P.S For this piece I haven't got chance to use the new 1.5/1.6 patches since it's a pretty old project and I stopped working on it temporarily. But once I got chance to move back to this piece again, I must update all patches and especially, I want to try the measured trill patch. I feel there is a perfect spot(0:35-0:39 on clarinets) to use it. Also I will adjust the balance/mixing and hopefully find a better brass sound....

P.Sx2 Sorry for my bad English and thanks for reading/listening :oops:


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## OT_Tobias (Aug 12, 2013)

Just chiming in to say that of course there will be an update for EXP A with the legato script introduced in BWW 1.6.


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## Madrigal (Aug 12, 2013)

duanran007 @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> As a happy BWW user, I'd love to show my support by posting this unfinished/rough little excerpt.
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5717805/Luotianyi%20Valse/song%20unfinished%20-%20instrumental%20without%20vocal%20line.mp3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/571 ... 20line.mp3)



Beautiful piece, you really made BWW shine here. Great use of CC expressions.


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## Darryl Jackson (Aug 12, 2013)

OT_Tobias @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Just chiming in to say that of course there will be an update for EXP A with the legato script introduced in BWW 1.6.



Glad to hear it, thanks for the quick response, Tobias. 

And it should be said that the customer service on your website's forum is great! I normally would have brought this up there had the discussion not already been ongoing on vi control.


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## Graham Keitch (Aug 12, 2013)

I must have downloaded my copy of BWW from a different site because it sounds absolutely nothing like the clip posted by repeat when placed in their proper orchestral setting. Used properly, the BWW instruments are truly beautiful. 

I think the biggest problem facing many 'composers' is that the woods are too often an afterthought that get added in once the strings, percussion and brass have been laid down. By that stage most people have exhausted their ability to harmonise and add further counterpoint and compositional artistry. So they see woods primarily as a solo instrument - and as has been said many times before, that's not the library's intention. I want to hear a demo of some decent and realistic wood chorus writing that shows BWW in a bad light - and I doubt anyone will take up that challenge! 

I was one of the first to express disappointment that CineWinds didn't contain ensembles - and then BWW came out also without ensembles. But I admit the BWW approach of allowing you to create your own ensembles is the right approach. However, some users seem to think that means they've been given a collection of soloists to work with. Wrong! There's a world of difference between wood solo work and a wood chorus - just like a vocal ensemble is completely different to an operatic soloist.


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## re-peat (Aug 12, 2013)

Madrigal @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> duanran007 @ Mon Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > As a happy BWW user, I'd love to show my support by posting this unfinished/rough little excerpt.
> ...



Yes, that is very nice indeed. Marvellous writing, great open sound and, yes, making a pretty convincing case for BWW, I agree. Very well done.

_


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## Mike Greene (Aug 12, 2013)

duanran007 @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5717805/Luotianyi%20Valse/song%20unfinished%20-%20instrumental%20without%20vocal%20line.mp3


I must concur with Madrigal and Piet. This piece is a joy. Really nicely done. 8)


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## re-peat (Aug 12, 2013)

Graham Keitch @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> I must have downloaded my copy of BWW from a different site because it sounds absolutely nothing like the clip posted by repeat when placed in their proper orchestral setting. Used properly, the BWW instruments are truly beautiful.


Graham,

Care to illustrate that with, say, a few telling cantabile lines for the oboe, the English horn and clarinet, something along the lines of what I did? It seems to me that if you really have a "sounds absolutely nothing like the clip posted by repeat", then it is more than welcome in this thread, no? It should be heard. So, expose me, please. I don't mind.

_


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## Graham Keitch (Aug 12, 2013)

re-peat @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> Graham Keitch @ Mon Aug 12 said:
> 
> 
> > I must have downloaded my copy of BWW from a different site because it sounds absolutely nothing like the clip posted by repeat when placed in their proper orchestral setting. Used properly, the BWW instruments are truly beautiful.
> ...



With due respect, I'm not the one criticising the library. Not meaning to fall out but I think you're still missing the point. This is about chorus use not cantabile ie singing and expressive use. So no, I won't post an inappropriate demo that shows what I consider to be a good library in a bad light.


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## re-peat (Aug 12, 2013)

Sascha Knorr @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> I think the day, when a sampled instrument can play a simple folk tune exposed in an expressive and fully convincing way, we really have a black day. Because, when this border is broken, live musicans may become obsolete. (...)


Maybe, Sasha, but I fear that, judging by the wide-spread and often ecstatic enthusiasm for today’s libraries, the age begun by that black day may already be long upon us. See, those who insist that CineSamples’ woodwinds, or BWW’s, or HW’s, or VSL’s can generate “awesome” or “amazing” woodwind timbres/performances, obviously have lost some (or a lot) of the capability to hear all the subtle and not so subtle details which make real woodwinds so singularly beautiful and still a trillion galaxies removed from their virtual usurpers.
If people today already can’t hear or appreciate the huuuuuge difference anymore between real on the one hand, and the current state of virtual affairs on the other, then things don’t really need to improve all that much anymore as far as they are concerned, don’t they? 
One only has to read through this thread and one might very well be forgiven for thinking that we’re already there, very near the point where virtual pushes real off the stage or out of the studio. That may not be quite the deepest blackest of days yet, but it’s a disturbingly dark one nonetheless, I would say.

_


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## Graham Keitch (Aug 12, 2013)

I wouldn't argue with that re=peat. Exposed solo work whether strings or woods is a very different challenge - and I'm not sure I'd want libraries to get too close to the real thing! A true solo performance is very much about the gifted musician themselves - their character etc and samples will never capture that.


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## Hendrik-Schwarzer (Aug 12, 2013)

We really try to get as close as possible to the real thing and I say that as a composer using my own tools on a daily basis. But without an intention to push the library (where every sample is a kind of snapshot of a real expression) into a specific direction you can't reach that target or get close to it.

If I would present you tomorrow a super expressive english horn, I'm sure you will find other things or phrases which can't be achieved with it.
That's the nature of sampling.

Best, Hendrik


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## reddognoyz (Aug 12, 2013)

Hendrik,

BWW is outstanding. State of the art. 

my 2¢


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## BenG (Aug 12, 2013)

Hendrik-Schwarzer @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> We really try to get as close as possible to the real thing and I say that as a composer using my own tools on a daily basis. But without an intention to push the library (where every sample is a kind of snapshot of a real expression) into a specific direction you can't reach that target or get close to it.
> 
> If I would present you tomorrow a super expressive english horn, I'm sure you will find other things or phrases which can't be achieved with it.
> That's the nature of sampling.
> ...



Very true. 

I this is why BWW works great in an orchestral or ensemble setting IMO. I believe this is how the library was intended to function and it does so wonderfully. 

Perhaps some of the main gripes some people have with the library itself but rather how to write and mix it accordingly. I think the one of the issues are some are unaware of how a real woodwind section sounds and should sound.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 12, 2013)

I don't have BWW or the 8dio clarinet and if I did, it would not be appropriate for me comment on a product that directly competes with an EW product.

But I will say this: a great sample library does many things well in skillful hands, but no sample library does everything well, no matter how skilled the user.

But a great player may indeed do everything or nearly everything well and that is why there will always be a demand for them, unless we, as I sometimes fear, raise a generation of composers and clients so ignorant that either they cannot appreciate the difference or simply do not value it enough to pay for it.


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## Aakaash Rao (Aug 12, 2013)

This has been very informative; thanks to all for sharing their opinion. I do agree that in a solo context, the BWW woods seem unnatural, but perhaps it is this very flatness that allows them to blend so well in an orchestral context. Purely considering solo instruments, I do think I prefer the 8Dio oboe and clarinet to their BWW counterparts; however, I'm still leaning towards BWW due to its versatility and ease of use. 

It's too bad there are no great solo woodwinds packages on the market except for VSL.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Aug 12, 2013)

I give BWW a massive +1 because hendrik is awesome to deal with and is very helpful if you ever have issues.


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## duanran007 (Aug 12, 2013)

Thanks Madrigal, re-peat and Mike Greene for all your kind words! I just have to finish that piece some day..

btw last year I did a mock up of an excerpt from Pelléas et Melisande Sicilienne by Gabriel Fauré for template testing. there are some solo flute passages. It sounds pretty decent and I have confidence that it will sound better if I used 1.6 legato patch.

https://soundcloud.com/novation_music/o ... ate-test-2

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F63364652&secret_url=false[/flash]

Thanks for listening!


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## Aakaash Rao (Aug 12, 2013)

@Duanran- That is one of my all time favorite pieces of music. Thanks so much for sharing.


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## MrCambiata (Aug 12, 2013)

bmiller360 @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> I found in issue with the 8Dio clarinet that for me, makes it very tough to use. They programmed all the held notes with this very annoying arc within them. It's like a swell in the middle of each sample and is unusable for me. This little swell in every note drove me a bit nuts. I emailed 8Dio to ask about this and they simply believe that the swell is part of an authentic sound. As a former woodwind player, this is something I never did unless it was marked to do so on the part.



I've also noticed that phenomenon, but the basic sound is so warm and expressive that I can live with it... Maybe you could try to balance it with controller C01 and C11. I do wish that they make static samples as well in a future update, so one could alternate between the two, preferably with an easy way of doing so - as I am a bit tired of key-switches...


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## duanran007 (Aug 13, 2013)

Aakaash Rao @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> @Duanran- That is one of my all time favorite pieces of music. Thanks so much for sharing.



You're very welcome! It's my favorite too. Such a beautiful piece of music!


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## jleckie (Aug 26, 2013)

bmiller360 @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> I found in issue with the 8Dio clarinet that for me, makes it very tough to use. They programmed all the held notes with this very annoying arc within them. It's like a swell in the middle of each sample and is unusable for me. This little swell in every note drove me a bit nuts.



Recently I had a chance to go over to composers place and he graciously allowed me to demo the various clarinets he has. 8-Dio's clarinet had the most feeling in it. (had to agree with Piet on that) BUT- and heres the rub - there is a swell in every sus/legato making it sound very odd in held notes. Why is that? If not for that - IT would be my choice to buy. Hands down.


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## noxtenebrae17 (Aug 26, 2013)

jleckie @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> Recently I had a chance to go over to composers place and he graciously allowed me to demo the various clarinets he has. 8-Dio's clarinet had the most feeling in it. (had to agree with Piet on that) BUT- and heres the rub - there is a swell in every sus/legato making it sound very odd in held notes. Why is that? If not for that - IT would be my choice to buy. Hands down.



+1. Absolutely fantastic transitions. But very odd choice for sustains. I can understand a very subtle swell, but Claire's swells are overly dramatic.


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## jleckie (Aug 26, 2013)

I think that was a huge mistake recording them that way and not having a non swell option.

I tried them in a very simple passage using Hollywood strings, and VSL and I just could not get the 8Dio's to work. I really wanted to since they are gorgeously recorded and have more 'life' to them then anything else out there. :(


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## MrCambiata (Aug 30, 2013)

I wanted to complement my Claire Clarinet which I really like and bought the Claire Bassoon. I am really disappointed, it doesn't sound or play half as good as the clarinet counterpart. Still looking for a WW library...


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## bmiller360 (Aug 30, 2013)

Though 8Dio has done a wonderful sampling job, does it bother anyone else that when a note is held, it has that built-in volume arc. I have asked the company and they say that it is simply the way they prefer to program their instruments. That's ok and I respect them, but I have found the 8Dio instruments unusable just for this single issue. If I could only hold a note and have it NOT crescendo-decresc, I would be very happy with it. If the BWW doesn't do that, I made a mistake in jumping into buying the 8Dio and should have gotten the BWW.


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## MrCambiata (Aug 30, 2013)

About this swelling - it's not that clarinet players doen't play this way.. they do, they just don't play this way on each and every tone they hold for more than a second. So it does bother me but I really like the tone of the Clair Clarinet and until there's something better, it's my favourite so far.


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## jleckie (Aug 30, 2013)

bmiller360 @ Fri Aug 30 said:


> Though 8Dio has done a wonderful sampling job, does it bother anyone else that when a note is held, it has that built-in volume arc.



Yeah _ I hear you. I think its tone is just lovely and the ability to mix and match breath noises is amazing but the swell is a no go for me. :(


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## jleckie (Aug 30, 2013)

@bmiller360: Did you listen to the demos on Clarinet (8dio) before you bought? I am curious. Is it possible that if one uses the vibrato version of the clarinet those swells diminish a bit? I listened to the first demo by Bill Brown and the longer notes do not have that swell but theres so much vibrato.

Did you spring for the BWW?

(listening to the other demos now - unfortunately the ones I've heard so far seem to be playing to the strengths of the library (i.e. shorter notes or notes that end where the swell makes sense)

Any professional clarinet players care to chime in and help out regarding swells in sustained notes. How common are swells in all sustained notes while playing?


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## MrCambiata (Aug 31, 2013)

Just checked it. The vibrato articulation definately has that sewelling as well. To reduce it you can use the mod wheel to lower the dynamics when the tone begins to change its level. The problem is, that the overtone (one octave higher) becomes more audible this way, but only in the higher notes...


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## bmiller360 (Aug 31, 2013)

I did listen to the demos before I bought. However, the demos didn't show this problem. For the record, I was a professional woodwind player before I started arranging and composing full time. Also, as a composer in Los Angeles, I have the privilege of working with the finest players in the world. I have never played that way, nor have any of the players I have hired played that way. If I were to exaggerate a bit here, I'd say that the swell is a little nauseating. Yesterday, I tried the 8Dio clarinet again and found that trying to "counteract" the swell with my exp pedal was mentally exhausting. The overall tone of the samples are terrific, but this swell makes the instrument unusable. If the BWW is better, that's great. Also, Embertone is coming out with a clarinet. Judging from their other instruments, it will probably be my next clarinet. Sorry for 8Dio for sticking with this swell, and sorry for me and the others that it bothers, since we cannot use this otherwise beautiful instrument. It comes out of my template today. Not that I haven't given it every opportunity...


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## bmiller360 (Aug 31, 2013)

FWIW...just went to 8Dio site and listened to the demos. Amazing how so frequently they player changes notes just as the note begins to swell. The end of the legato improvisations demo really shows the swell and it is just total silliness. Otherwise, the demo is excellent and the clarinet does sound real. Very frustrating to me that I didn't catch this in the demos before I bought. I'm sure that I thought that these swells were intentional with expression rather than built in to the samples. What a waste of beautiful sampling. Also, this scares me away from the rest of their libraries and that's really a shame. I've gotten serious about the Spitfire strings, mainly because the 8Dio could give me similar surprises and I don't want to buy....then regret. As I said in my previous post, I contacted 8Dio when I first noticed this and they respectfully felt strongly that these swells were inherent in the nature of the clarinet and had no intention of changing it.


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## jleckie (Aug 31, 2013)

Thanks Mr. Cambiata for the mod wheel tip. 

Yes bmiller360 I see what you mean about the demo players moving onto another note just before the swell. And I can not agree more that it truly is a waste of beautiful sampling. Just to educate myself I listened to a variety of ways the clarinet is played: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11YLuxCNdyE

Needless to say, no swelling in held notes.

I am quite befuddled why any developer would offer up ANY instrument that had only swells in the sample and not offer up ONE patch that didn't.


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## jleckie (Aug 31, 2013)

How are the BWW instruments in terms of CLOSE mice? Do they come with the ability to control breath and noises by using the closer mic?


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## Casiquire (Sep 1, 2013)

jleckie @ Sat 31 Aug said:


> How are the BWW instruments in terms of CLOSE mice? Do they come with the ability to control breath and noises by using the closer mic?



BWW come with complete control over key clicks and noises. Seriously, just watch some demo videos, they do go into some detail.


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## jleckie (Sep 1, 2013)

Casiquire @ Sun Sep 01 said:


> jleckie @ Sat 31 Aug said:
> 
> 
> > How are the BWW instruments in terms of CLOSE mice? Do they come with the ability to control breath and noises by using the closer mic?
> ...



will do. thanks.


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## Casiquire (Sep 1, 2013)

No problem! It looks like a pretty fantastic library, but I really want to test it out before taking the plunge. I'd need to see how well it works in MIR compared to the woods I already have.


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## dfhagai (Sep 2, 2013)

I own BWW and I'm generaly quite disappointed.
As stated here before me, cc1 sound so phasy and chorusy that i'ts on the verge of being not usable.

How could one ignore such an important aspect?

I agree that the OT team are great guys and have great support, but it doesn't reallt help as long as they don't manage to solve the CC1 issue. 
The solution they came up with of using just one dynamic layer is a ridiculos, sorry.

I recently contacted Orchestral Tools and asked if I could re-Sell it...
Unfourtunatly I can't.

I am waiting for AudioBros offering.
I find that they, like Spectrasonics, do things right to begin with.
And it could only get better from there on.


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## Casiquire (Sep 2, 2013)

dfhagai @ Mon 02 Sep said:


> I own BWW and I'm generaly quite disappointe.
> As stated here before me, cc1 sound so phasy and chorusy that i'ts on the verge of being not usable.
> 
> ...
> ...



I heard a lot of that phasing just in the very demo videos, and I've never ever been a fan of how their playable runs sound. But I got the feeling that the library was meant to be layered so the phasing wouldn't be so bad if there were three flutes playing, for instance.

Well, I'm really excited for whatever Audiobro has coming next but they're taking their SWEET time with it. Might be smart for them to do woodwinds since it still seems like nobody's really done woodwinds just right yet, VSL and Samplemodeling coming closest.


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