# My regrets of higher education in film scoring



## Andrajas

So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...

As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.

My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life. 

2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially. 
Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for. 

But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..

As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there. 

I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....

Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?


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## karelpsota

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. You can't regret trying.

The grass is always greener on the other side fence.
Friends with house and kids also have their fair share of problems.

Have you thought about other jobs related to music?

When I arrived to LA, I was pretty confident I was NOT gonna make it as composer due to the intense competition. So I decided I'd do something technical like mixing & sound design.

These two jobs helped pay my bills, get connections, and get good at mixing... which later helped a lot when I finally landed composition jobs.

I also like to think about Steve Duda. He had a music degree and was struggling, so he went to do tech support at AVID. He then helped Nine Inch Nails, created BFD, mixed Bieber records, recorded sample packs with Deadmau5, started programming on his own. Made xFer LFOTool, Cthulu, Nerve, and Serum (took him 10 years).


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## GNP

I can definitely relate to how you feel.

The bottomline is - filmscoring isn't exactly a "join a music school, graduate, get jobs" sort of a thing.
You need to forge connections throughout your life.

Me, I joined a music school to obtain a degree was because I wanted to learn proper orchestration. But getting a degree wasn't my main goal - it was so I could learn the insides of the "proper". I was still doing outside gigs while I was attending music school. I couldn't tolerate the academic snobbery that was happening in music school, but I forced myself to go through it for the sake of having "street cred". Hah! "Street cred!" I never realized I had it all along already!

*shhhh* ( the actual truth is, you do not need music school to be a film composer - you need connections. learning 'proper orchestration' and whatever is 'proper', is always secondary.)

The reason why I had connections, was because prior to music school, I was in animation and film school. The friends and projects I scored for free for them there, were what became my anchors and connections.

If you still have the means, I would strongly suggest you join film school, rather than music school. Make lifelong friends there by scoring their projects for them. My working relationships with them grew with every project. As they go up the ladder in the industry over the years, hopefully they'll all pull you along for the ride.

I'm so sorry that what I'm saying is definitely not going to make you feel any better, and I do feel like shit for you man.


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## styledelk

So what is film composing, outside of the music, if not Project Management?

Maybe, at least for now, you should look at a few bright sides:
1. You have two degrees, and these go a long way.
2. You developed skills in project management that can be immediately applicable to building any sort of product or process.

Perhaps you apply that to getting a project management certificate, or heck, just read up on it as a profession, and see if you can cast your resume in that light towards some jobs in that area-- at least for the time being.


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## PeterN

News says 1.18 million americans filed unemployment last week. Dont believe too much in the sweet words, stick to reality. We are facing a very uncertain future. You are only 27, get another education as backup, yea, its too late to become a nuclear engineer or stuff like that, but there are plenty of 2-3 year educations for professions out there. IT speciality could be a good move, to have as a backup. Or just a carpenter. But theres no magic trick around, any road you choose now will be hard work. You can probably forget about women and family until you have things stable, if they ever reach that point, thats reality. But suffering can bring excellent music, so keep it there still. We are waiting for that masterpiece that agony brings.

Edit: So you have studied criminology. But quit it. Maybe pick it up again as backup.


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## SDCP

First of all, quit whinig and feeling sorry for yourself. This is NOT an easy line of work. If you get work, you are usually 1) well prepared (you are), and 2) you are in the right place at the right time. Those are the 2 "secrets" to working. 

Henry Ford said, "Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right." Do you understand? If you think you will fail, you will.

Good luck.


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## Tim_Wells

Thank you for sharing your story. I feel your pain, as I have gone through some dark days in my past. The music business is a tough, tough game.

Let me throw out an option to consider. I was in my mid-30s, playing in nightclubs for my living, and burned out and sick of it. Crappy money, no benefits, no retirement, no home. Finally decided to go back to school with one goal. _Get a degree in something that leads to a good job_. For me that turned out to be Accounting. I ended up having a great career and life. I was so much happier. Long story short; I am now retired with a good retirement income and savings. I'm now doing music fulltime.

You're still a very young man. You've got your masters degree. You could pick up the classes you need to start a new vocation. My $0.02.


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## Jeremy Spencer

SDCP said:


> First of all, quit whinig and feeling sorry for yourself. This is NOT an easy line of work. If you get work, you are usually 1) well prepared (you are), and 2) you are in the right place at the right time. Those are the 2 "secrets" to working.
> 
> Henry Ford said, "Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right." Do you understand? If you think you will fail, you will.
> 
> Good luck.



As harsh as that sounds, I fully agree. @Andrajas you are only 27, and in good health I assume....you are in good shape. It’s the perfect time to find a long term career that has a steady income and will allow you to pursue your musical dream on the side. Many of us, myself included, have been down your path. When I was 26, I realized I was going to be a struggling musician indefinitely unless I went to plan B (power engineering)....which paid off in spades. 25 years later, I’m still a power engineer, but make time for touring as a drummer and scoring for film, tv and live theatre.


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## MartinH.

If all those thousands of similar stories were more public and visible, maybe the creative markets wouldn't be as saturated as they are. Thanks for sharing and good luck! 


Here's what I'd try: make a list of companies close to you. Do research on them and check which of them are using music in some way or could possibly be talked into using music in some way. Check which of those might have work positions that require the kind of "learn on the job" domain knowledge that you can't study for anyway. See if you can get a job there where you bring in your composing skills as a unique selling preposition that sets you apart from other applicants. Think of it this way: they are unlikely to hire a composer fulltime, because the need for that is so rare. But if they need to hire someone for something else anyway, and could get "a free composer as a bonus", that would be interesting if they have a need or use for music. Your masters degree demonstrates that you are smart and dilligent enough to get such a high educational degree, and that builds trust and can set you apart from some of the other applicants.

Supermarket sounds like a total deadend to me, so it might be for the better if you don't get stuck there. Think outside the box, talk to local companies, see what else is out there. There may be jobs that you'd enjoy and be good at, that you haven't even heard about as "being a job".


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## patrick76

It isn't only people in the music business that are losing their jobs. The GDP for the U.S. dropped almost 33% last quarter, the largest such reduction recorded. So even if you got "an education that could turn into a good paying job", there is a real possibility you could have lost that as well, depending on what industry that hypothetical job would be in.


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## gsilbers

Outside of Los Angeles a film scoring career is pretty risky. And even in LA is also wobbly.
The real secret to filmscoring is having money. Plain and simple. 
Have money to wait for the next film. Have money to practice and have money to find the connections who also have money. 

But if you have master degree in composition related and know all the basics of filmscoring have you tried library music?
You can now practice how to crank out practice cues and do one a day. Or something like that. 

But yeah... w tons of composers out there it’s pretty hard.


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## Gerbil

I'm guessing if you have two degrees then you're competent on an instrument or two? Why don't you look into performing and/or teaching. Work with other musicians. I myself and the majority of fellow musicians I know work in other areas alongside composing/arranging. You really don't have to be focused on just one thing to be successful*. I enjoy performing in an ensemble as much as writing.

All that said this is the covid era so who knows what's around the corner...

*here I'm defining success as fulfilled and making enough money to be ok/comfortable - not becoming the next John Williams or Evgeny Kissin.


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## michalioz

I started a second bachelor's degree in computer science at 28, studied for 4 years and then also had a master's. I was able to pay back all the debt at 36. I could barely live as a man of my age all these years, financially speaking.

I could be thinking of a million things today. What if I had studied music instead and maybe this and that. However, I did the best I could with what I had at the moment. Because if I could have done better than that, then why didn't I do so?

So, you did the best you could with what you had. And now that this is out of the way, without regrets and always by being proud of yourself because you did everything by yourself without any rich parents doing it for you, try becoming the best version of you with what you have. This is my advice I guess, try using your potential now, to minimise regrets in the future. Because the past is gone, and you did your best back then.


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## jonathanparham

Thanks for having shared.

I agree with what's already been said.

I have a bachelor of music and I've worked various non-industry jobs to stay employed. It's been said before on this board, 'Do what you have to do to keep at your art.' No shame in the supermarket gig if you can go home and work on your art later. Do that and save money.

In between gigs, I've answered phones, stocked shelves in women's clothing stores, and was moving pallet jacks of greeting cards before my first daughter was born.

I have had gigs verbally promised and then the studio said 'no' as I was going in to sign my deal. I've had backups. A wife that works and was just as angry at that deal and empathizes frustrations with me in my career. I also formed a Corp when I started freelancing just over 20 years ago. I was able to use a line of credit to float me, and then as gigs returned I SYSTEMATICALLY PAID BACK THE LINE OF CREDIT, and made dang skippy sure I was systematically saving for when I'm not working again. . . which is now lol

I like to direct you to another forum members comments here==> How do you support yourself starting out

You have time and your time in school has not been wasted The school did what it was supposed to do; teach you music. You have to create, market, network.


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## Ashermusic

This is a sad story and makes me so grateful that I came up in a different era. I only have a bachelor’s in Composition But when I came to LA, I could eke out a living playing and singing 5-6 nights a week In nightclubs, or weddings and bar mitzvahs on weekends, getting a weekly advance check some years as a songwriter signed to a publisher, playing piano on demos and commercials, etc. Almost ALL of that no longer exists.

I don’t know if a Masters in Film Music as opposed to Composition helps you get a job teaching music at a College or Junior College?


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## patrick76

Ashermusic said:


> This is a sad story and makes me so grateful that I came up in a different era. I only have a bachelor’s in Composition But when I came to LA, I could eke out a living playing and singing 5-6 nights a week In nightclubs, or weddings and bar mitzvahs on weekends, getting a weekly advance check some years as a songwriter signed to a publisher, playing piano on demos and commercials, etc. Almost ALL of that no longer exists.
> 
> I don’t know if a Masters in Film Music as opposed to Composition helps you get a job teaching music at a College or Junior College?


Unfortunately getting a job teaching at a college in an arts related field is usually super competitive. From what I've heard they are generally looking for someone with a doctorate and of course like every field, it can help a lot if you know someone. A friend of mine just lost a job at a college teaching music in southern California due to the pandemic. 

The truth is it just plain sucks out there right now. As mentioned earlier by karelpsota, the OP shouldn't beat himself up. Just take a step back and evaluate the situation and make the decision you feel is right.


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## Andrajas

Big thanks all for the replies everyone! ❤ I really appreciate it. And I agree, I should stop whining and feel sorry for myself.

To give more background to this thread: I'm not living in the states, I'm from Sweden. And here we have a support system for students so we are getting a good student loan + a little contribution to live on. However, you can only have this support system for 6 years. And I have used all of those years. This means that I can't study something new and have this supporting me again. For that I need to work on the side.

I went all in with music since I've been told not to have "second plans", "back-up plans". I just really love film and game music and want nothing more than to work on those things. During my masters degree when I worked on short films, assisted on big tv-show and feature, I felt so good (a short film I worked on even won an student oscar) . I did what I love! My passion.

I am working as an guest teacher at an university where I talk about film scoring. But this gig is only for a small period and nothing that I can live of. I do however love to teach this and students seems like my teaching (after receiving feedback). I do play the drums and piano decent, but playing gigs haven't really been that fun or interesting to me. I much more like to write and produce.

I have to process some things you have mentioned here. But felt much better to write this thread. I do understand I need to find a new way to pursue my dream.


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## Ivan M.

Andrajas said:


> I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up



There's a high probability mariage would make you way more miserable


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## PerryD

As an "old guy" in my 60's, I have my share of lifetime regrets. I certainly never achieved a return of fame or monetary wealth from my investment in music. I do have a wealth of friends I have met in the process. At least one good friend has gone on to score some feature films. I took trumpet lessons from a guy who played with Stan Kenton. I never really noticed his small apartment and beat up car until my parents pointed it out to me. :/ I just thought, "wow, this guy played with Stan Kenton!" He was still very passionate about playing trumpet, despite his financial situation. 27 is young. Still time to make good plans and dream big. If you love music, that will stay with you regardless of where life takes you.


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## Patrick de Caumette

Our field is very competitive (hundreds of new people like you come into the work force every year),
Two years out of college is not much time to be expecting success.
Steady income is not what this job is about, unless you have dozens of successful movies or hundreds of music placements under your belt.
Those for whom it is an all consuming passion are the ones who have the greatest chances of succeeding, because for them, a music career is more important than anything else and they will suffer rejection for years, at great personal cost, in order to follow their passion.
Luck is a big piece of it
The industry is ever shifting, and technology has eliminated entire sectors of our profession, and will continue to do so.
The entire global economic model is based on the exploitation of the work force by the people at the top.
Diversifying is key

Best of luck!


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## InLight-Tone

Be thankful you're only 27, that's a baby! You've got tons of LIFEtime left...


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## marius_dm

Yup, 27 is young nowadays. I'll share a bit of my story.
I was born in eastern Europe and I was a horrible student in high school, too preoccupied with the emerging music making tools on the computer (mid 90s). I'm really surprised I ever graduated high school since I don't recall ever opening up a book to study. At 28 I moved to the USA and at 29 I started a bachelor degree in Computer Engineering at one of the most rigorous universities in the US (GA Tech) and graduated 5 years later summa cum laude (perfect 4.0 GPA) and got a software development job in the automotive industry. During my university years I had to do construction work on the side part time because I was broke and I wasn't eligible for scholarships because I was more than 7 years out of high school.
But in all that time I kept enjoying making music as a hobby, way more than I ever enjoyed the brief period when I worked at a commercial recording studio as a "producer" in my mid 20s.
I'm only saying this so that you realize you can be anything at any age if you put your mind to it. Our paths are all different and individual, you'll find yours no worries.


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## JohnG

Hello Andrejas,

I read through this thread but I don't think I know anything much about you other than your education and age and, it appears, that you write well in English but you didn't grow up in an English-speaking country. Maybe you're married? Maybe not? Maybe you want to be? We don't know.

Only you can decide what you really want out of life, so I would caution you before you take too much advice -- from anyone. You can get really terrible advice even from friends or your family who have your best interest at heart, and certainly from people whom you don't know on an Internet forum.

In some countries there is still a decent social backstop from the government. That is not true in the US anymore; you can literally starve or end up in your car (if you have one) being hassled all the time and rejected everywhere. So when people urge you to "go for it," consider that some saying that may live in countries where the worst that can happen is that you live off a very small government handout. Not great, but you can survive. That is not the picture in every country.

On the brighter side, as many have pointed out, you still have a lot of time to get somewhere. So, a few thoughts:

*1. Relationships in work *-- Success can come early or late in life -- for some, decades later -- but it doesn't arise primarily from technical expertise or being "the greatest composer." It comes from friendships and working relationships. Someone suggested maybe being a Pro Tools operator, or studio tech. That's a good idea for some people. If you follow that route, be the most helpful, friendliest, most diplomatic, and funny Pro Tools operator around, so you can keep working. That way you get to hang around with people who are working and get paid. If you can play an instrument or sing professionally, maybe you get to contribute on a track, and that can lead somewhere. Don't worry if it's for free at first, as long as it's not long term exploitation. Winners, in any industry, keep asking, "what can I do to help?" instead of "what's in it for me?"

Example: There are hundreds of superb guitar players in Los Angeles. I usually hire the same guy because I know he's superb too, but also a good person, loves his family, and he's CHEERFUL. "Cheerful" is underestimated as a life skill.

*2. Relationships with family* -- If you marry or have children, those relationships come first. Nothing else is more important; certainly not how you make money. If you can cultivate a happy marriage and live up to your obligations at home and in your community (volunteering to help the poor or honouring your religious duties if you have any), I think it contributes to your success in music or any other career. I don't like people who disregard obligations or are cruel to those down the social or work scale from them and I don't want to work with people like that. I find that, over time, other people feel the same way, even if it's not obvious at first.

*3. Flexible Dreams -- *It is not good to fixate on one particular role, like "I want to compose superhero movies," or "I want to score the next 'Game of Thrones.'" Why? Because you never know how, and in what corner of music, your breakthrough will come. Maybe it turns out you're great at children's movies, or comedy, or something that you might not want to watch yourself, but it just happens you have a gift there.

*4. Don't decide out of fear* -- Many people, particularly older people, become risk-averse as they go through life. Why? They see disastrous friends' predicaments. So if people tell you not to pursue music or something else because it's "risky," remember that it's all risky. What happens if AI destroys half the legal or accounting profession? Those jobs won't look so secure either. Put another way, ask yourself, "if this DOES work out, would I be happy?" That said, it's not a bad idea to learn some way to make money on the side, hopefully music-related.

So my advice is, "be a good fellow, and be cheerful" whether you pursue music full time, only as a hobby, or not at all. I think that leads to a fuller, more satisfying life. Maybe not "happy" or precisely the life you dreamed of, but still worthwhile.


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## omc_29

JohnG said:


> Hello Andrejas,
> 
> I read through this thread but I don't think I know anything much about you other than your education and age and, it appears, that you write well in English but you didn't grow up in an English-speaking country. Maybe you're married? Maybe not? Maybe you want to be? We don't know.
> 
> Only you can decide what you really want out of life, so I would caution you before you take too much advice -- from anyone. You can get really terrible advice even from friends or your family who have your best interest at heart, and certainly from people whom you don't know on an Internet forum.
> 
> In some countries there is still a decent social backstop from the government. That is not true in the US anymore; you can literally starve or end up in your car (if you have one) being hassled all the time and rejected everywhere. So when people urge you to "go for it," consider that some saying that may live in countries where the worst that can happen is that you live off a very small government handout. Not great, but you can survive. That is not the picture in every country.
> 
> On the brighter side, as many have pointed out, you still have a lot of time to get somewhere. So, a few thoughts:
> 
> *1. Relationships in work *-- Success can come early or late in life -- for some, decades later -- but it doesn't arise primarily from technical expertise or being "the greatest composer." It comes from friendships and working relationships. Someone suggested maybe being a Pro Tools operator, or studio tech. That's a good idea for some people. If you follow that route, be the most helpful, friendliest, most diplomatic, and funny Pro Tools operator around, so you can keep working. That way you get to hang around with people who are working and get paid. If you can play an instrument or sing professionally, maybe you get to contribute on a track, and that can lead somewhere. Don't worry if it's for free at first, as long as it's not long term exploitation. Winners, in any industry, keep asking, "what can I do to help?" instead of "what's in it for me?"
> 
> Example: There are hundreds of superb guitar players in Los Angeles. I usually hire the same guy because I know he's superb too, but also a good person, loves his family, and he's CHEERFUL. "Cheerful" is underestimated as a life skill.
> 
> *2. Relationships with family* -- If you marry or have children, those relationships come first. Nothing else is more important; certainly not how you make money. If you can cultivate a happy marriage and live up to your obligations at home and in your community (volunteering to help the poor or honouring your religious duties if you have any), I think it contributes to your success in music or any other career. I don't like people who disregard obligations or are cruel to those down the social or work scale from them and I don't want to work with people like that. I find that, over time, other people feel the same way, even if it's not obvious at first.
> 
> *3. Flexible Dreams -- *It is not good to fixate on one particular role, like "I want to compose superhero movies," or "I want to score the next 'Game of Thrones.'" Why? Because you never know how, and in what corner of music, your breakthrough will come. Maybe it turns out you're great at children's movies, or comedy, or something that you might not want to watch yourself, but it just happens you have a gift there.
> 
> *4. Don't decide out of fear* -- Many people, particularly older people, become risk-averse as they go through life. Why? They see disastrous friends' predicaments. So if people tell you not to pursue music or something else because it's "risky," remember that it's all risky. What happens if AI destroys half the legal or accounting profession? Those jobs won't look so secure either. Put another way, ask yourself, "if this DOES work out, would I be happy?" That said, it's not a bad idea to learn some way to make money on the side, hopefully music-related.
> 
> So my advice is, "be a good fellow, and be cheerful" whether you pursue music full time, only as a hobby, or not at all. I think that leads to a fuller, more satisfying life. Maybe not "happy" or precisely the life you dreamed of, but still worthwhile.



Great post!! I'm in a similar situation as the OP, except I'm 31, working as a cleaner and have only just starting my masters in Orchestration. I have felt very similar and pondered all of the things that the OP have mentioned in his post but all your comments here resonated with me.


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## Kent

SDCP said:


> First of all, quit whinig and feeling sorry for yourself.


I think the rest of your comment, and its advice, are fair, but I'm genuinely curious as to which part(s) you consider whining in @Andrajas 's post. Maybe it's because I'm demographically pretty similar to OP, but all I see are legitimate concerns expressed relatively neutrally.


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## Loïc D

My 2 cents is : take benefit of this idle time to develop side skills.
They might end up paying the bills.
What kind of side skills ?
- Technical like field recording etc
- IT. Learn programming, you’ll NEVER regret knowing this
- Project management. Serious one I mean. There’s plenty of good stuff to grab from PM technics even for composers (risk management, budget, etc)
- Marketing stuff, bit of accounting toi

Disclaimer : I’m not a music pro. BUT I’m business consultant and I know miles about project management.


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## gyprock

We are all being sold "the dream" through education. Perhaps we should be viewing all theses courses and degrees as a source of entertainment, enlightenment and occupiers of our time rather than a pathway to success and guaranteed employment. The educators creating and delivering the courses have found this out long ago.


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## MSutherlandComp

Hi Andrajas,

I am about to start a Master's in Screen Scoring degree at USC, but my _undergraduate_ degree is in Psychology. I think you have to find the answer to this question for yourself:



Andrajas said:


> Am I thinking about this wrongly?



Regrets are part and parcel to life, and experience. Rolling with the punches can be hard sometimes, and certainly harder in difficult circumstances such as the current global situation regarding COVID.

On a personal note: I think you are being too hard on yourself! Just as John (very aptly) mentioned above, in the world we find ourselves in today, work is far from guaranteed in just about any profession. Such is certainly more-so the case in this profession than many others.

I think it's important to expand on John's point about cheerfulness as a psychological effect in this line of work. Keeping a positive outlook can be hard, but it will certainly pay dividends as time goes on. Being cheerful helps us to deal with tough times such as these, and helps us to connect with others as well. That makes finding friends, connections, and yes - clients - easier in the long term.

I have looked at some of the music that you have previously posted on this forum and I think it is quite good, and based on your questions etc, you have a passion for the work. All that remains is to answer your question for yourself.

What it boils down to is - will you get back up on the horse? No one can blame you, whether you answer yes or no. But I think that you have maybe dug yourself into somewhat of a negative perspective on this (though you mentioned many harsh realities). t's important that you think about past failures as learning experiences, and not as something to regret! It's not fair to yourself to look back on your failures and tell yourself that you will simply continue to fail.

As Einstein said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result". This is an inherently creative field; I know you must be a creative guy! If you give yourself a chance to go about things in a different way, maybe it will work out this time?

Apologies for any rambling or talking in circles, it is getting late, but I felt the need to tell you - life works itself out one way or another. If you make a plan, follow it, adapt, and keep your spirits up - I'm sure you'll find yourself in a much more secure position down the road. But, you have to keep giving yourself the opportunity to make life happen. Main takeaway: Don't be so hard on yourself!


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## Karl Feuerstake

I don't know exactly how famous composers all forged their paths in terms of the business aspect, as credit lists don't really show how they actually got "gigs" - but I have some plans for myself. I'm in a similar boat to you, need to hold a part time job to stay alive while doing music on the side, and am of a similar age as well. I never had the opportunity to work as a composer's assistant, sounds like it would've been a blast. I don't have a Master's either, just a BA. So kudos to you for that 

Anyhow, I don't really know if it's a good plan that I have, so any feedback on it would be greatly appreciated. Nonetheless, this is what I am thinking regarding how to get started from my position (my current credits are two paid indie games, a handful of paid advertisements, and some non-paid short films.)

-Build a showreel of the few things I've worked on so far. Send this to various local indie directors / film makers who I can find online through a google search. I live in a small city located between two larger ones (Kingston, ON - between Toronto and Ottawa) and there isn't what I'd describe as a 'huge' film industry but I've done some research in to who to start targeting.
-After having done maybe 5-7 productions that are of this scale, I intend to make a new, updated showreel which I will then send to larger indie production companies. _Teams_ that make bigger productions than the smaller acts I intend to start with.
-Once again after having done several productions here, update showreel again, and go after bigger fish. Climb that ladder. Rinse and repeat.


----------



## NoamL

I'll throw in 2 cents about degree programs & composer assistantships (got an MM in 2012)...

The most important thing with each college, or course, is to have the mindset that the education is teaching you *skills *and* NOTHING ELSE* ... no matter what they say, ignore it!! ... then ask yourself if you're paying the right amount of money. I can really tell you, if the deal isn't right and you walk away, you won't be regretting it for the rest of your life. Truth is all of these film score programs that have popped up in the last 15 years, do their utmost, short of being sue-able, to make you think they're a job agent. They talk about "industry veterans" and "immersion" and "talk face to face with real pros" and "internships" and "alumni success lists" and some even have a program where they visit LA for a few weeks. It is all code for making *you* think that working composers and working directors care about the piece of paper they will give you, _and it's 100% crap._ They also make a big deal out of technology literacy. It _is_ a big deal but you don't need to take a college course to learn how to use a DAW.

The real situation in LA is a lot more like a medieval apprenticeship. You don't show up to a blacksmith saying "look at this sword I made at Sword Summer Camp (which is what college is if we're bein' real), teach me to make swords _but good_." ... you show up saying "I can carry 20 buckets of water a day." The overlooked logistical, technological, skills or just the skills of being a good aide-de-camp for what is an extremely frazzling job sometimes, are what really get you in.

Of course you don't want to carry water forever. You want to pick up skills on the job and for that you have to have some pre-existing aptitude or knowledge. So the skills that are evergreen are music literacy (including a broad view of music history), music theory, composition, orchestration. When you look at colleges, ask: what professors will I be learning these courses from? Are they teaching this out of a book I can get? Are they respected pros? If you look at it, like not even a degree, but a sort of extended tutorship, then the tutor matters. It matters a lot more than the name of the university on the piece of paper you get! 

Those degree programs honestly prey on people because it's a huge catch 22. The only thing that REALLY, truly matters in the industry is credits and the only REAL education is on the job. So how can you get on a job to really learn, if you have no credits? And how can you deliver a satisfactory score for a feature or tv show, if you have no _real_ education? That's why the apprentice system exists.


----------



## CT

Hi there. I'm 29 and largely unemployable. At one point, I thought I would move to Los Angeles and try "making it." Even had some pretty promising possibilities lined up. That fell through, and facing how financially difficult it is to move to a place like Los Angeles cold, coupled with everything happening now, I've all but thrown that idea out.

Wish I had some answer or encouragement for you, but all I can do is tell you there's at least one other person in a similar situation, trying to figure out what to do with my little slice of time on Earth. I earnestly hope you find your way.


----------



## edhamilton

To look at this a different way.
27 - you're not even started yet. I can remember what 27 feels like, and I can assure you - the game is still in the warm up - hasn't even started yet.

- Do you live in Swedens creative hub? where the interesting people are?
Step one is put yourself right in the middle of whatever creative world is happening right now.
Collab - produce tracks for singers - write songs - anything creative with the most interesting people you can find.
Stop worrying about film scoring. You don't have your voice yet. Plenty of time for film work later.
Right now its about finding yourself and to do that - you have to be in a scene that will let you open up, try a million new things, be inspired by a painter, a graphic designer - that have now become your friends.

In a couple years you may find you are a better hip hop/edm producer than a film composer.
Which is awesome because your dating life will be much better. No need to spend your life in a dark room with terrifying deadlines - yet.

You'll start to meet Swedish filmmakers. You'll have friends in common. You'll have a ton of cool music to share. And you can drop that you have a masters in film scoring.
Bingo - first gig. - First good credit.
Rinse - repeat. 
At some point you'll have a filmmaker friend move to LA - you'll follow and crash at their place.

And you will be a far more interesting human that the 27 year old version.
You will have created music you never would have otherwise. Met awesome peeps.

If none of that is interesting to you - there is no shame in looking into a career with better prospects.
The scene is WAY harder for your generation. And the world just hit the reset button with Covid.
Two years from now it will be even harder.

If you can do anything else and be happy - go be happy.
If you can't do anything else - welcome to the club. It's a long road. No one has any answers.
Other than brilliant, interesting people that have done a million crazy interesting projects with the most creative people they could find - tend to be the ones that get to stay in the game the longest.

my 2cents.


----------



## ag75

Andrajas said:


> I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up.


Never compare yourself to people that live a “normal” life. We don’t live a normal life. If this line of work was easy everyone would do it. The life of an artist is very difficult and lonely at times but our light burns brighter and stronger than most. Be lucky you’re one of us and hang in there. Persistence is everything.


----------



## Jeremy Gillam

I graduated film school in New York in 2013 when I was 21, and moved to Los Angeles later that year to pursue music. I'm now 29 and nowhere closer to having a career than I was then. But I have learned a tremendous amount and made some great friends (and some not so great ones, but you live and learn). Still, it can feel incredibly discouraging at times, and the state of the world right now doesn't help matters. 

Andrajas, you are lucky to live in Sweden -- I have thought seriously about moving to Stockholm. Whatever you do, don't stay down for long and don't stop making music!


----------



## MartinH.

JohnG said:


> *3. Flexible Dreams -- *It is not good to fixate on one particular role, like "I want to compose superhero movies," or "I want to score the next 'Game of Thrones.'" Why? Because you never know how, and in what corner of music, your breakthrough will come. Maybe it turns out you're great at children's movies, or comedy, or something that you might not want to watch yourself, but it just happens you have a gift there.



Even worse, you might reach your goal and realize it doesn't make you happy. That's a bad place to be in, even more so if you've sacrificed a lot to get there. 




ag75 said:


> Never compare yourself to people that live a “normal” life. We don’t live a normal life. If this line of work was easy everyone would do it. The life of an artist is very difficult and lonely at times but our light burns brighter and stronger than most. Be lucky you’re one of us and hang in there. Persistence is everything.



They say "You don't choose the artist life, the artist life chooses you".
And I like to say "Everyone who _can _be deterred from a creative career _should _be!", because the likelyhood of failure seems to be dramatically higher for those that need external encouragement and feel like there's even a choice to be made. 




JohnG said:


> "Cheerful" is underestimated as a life skill.



As a non-cheerful person I agree. I even met two freelance artists once who used to joke with their clients "We may not be the best, but we're the funnest!". I was always sceptical if that's a good move, but maybe it was.


----------



## SupremeFist

Pretty sure Philip Glass was still driving a taxi at 27.


----------



## CT

Don't forget plumbing into his forties!


----------



## nas

This may help to offer some perspective:


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

nas said:


> This may help to offer some perspective:



It makes a lot of sense, but how do you reach out to Harry Gregson-Williams (or someone in a similar position) before that discussion of being an intern or assistant even begins?


----------



## Andrajas

JohnG said:


> Hello Andrejas,
> 
> I read through this thread but I don't think I know anything much about you other than your education and age and, it appears, that you write well in English but you didn't grow up in an English-speaking country. Maybe you're married? Maybe not? Maybe you want to be? We don't know.
> 
> Only you can decide what you really want out of life, so I would caution you before you take too much advice -- from anyone. You can get really terrible advice even from friends or your family who have your best interest at heart, and certainly from people whom you don't know on an Internet forum.
> 
> In some countries there is still a decent social backstop from the government. That is not true in the US anymore; you can literally starve or end up in your car (if you have one) being hassled all the time and rejected everywhere. So when people urge you to "go for it," consider that some saying that may live in countries where the worst that can happen is that you live off a very small government handout. Not great, but you can survive. That is not the picture in every country.
> 
> On the brighter side, as many have pointed out, you still have a lot of time to get somewhere. So, a few thoughts:
> 
> *1. Relationships in work *-- Success can come early or late in life -- for some, decades later -- but it doesn't arise primarily from technical expertise or being "the greatest composer." It comes from friendships and working relationships. Someone suggested maybe being a Pro Tools operator, or studio tech. That's a good idea for some people. If you follow that route, be the most helpful, friendliest, most diplomatic, and funny Pro Tools operator around, so you can keep working. That way you get to hang around with people who are working and get paid. If you can play an instrument or sing professionally, maybe you get to contribute on a track, and that can lead somewhere. Don't worry if it's for free at first, as long as it's not long term exploitation. Winners, in any industry, keep asking, "what can I do to help?" instead of "what's in it for me?"
> 
> Example: There are hundreds of superb guitar players in Los Angeles. I usually hire the same guy because I know he's superb too, but also a good person, loves his family, and he's CHEERFUL. "Cheerful" is underestimated as a life skill.
> 
> *2. Relationships with family* -- If you marry or have children, those relationships come first. Nothing else is more important; certainly not how you make money. If you can cultivate a happy marriage and live up to your obligations at home and in your community (volunteering to help the poor or honouring your religious duties if you have any), I think it contributes to your success in music or any other career. I don't like people who disregard obligations or are cruel to those down the social or work scale from them and I don't want to work with people like that. I find that, over time, other people feel the same way, even if it's not obvious at first.
> 
> *3. Flexible Dreams -- *It is not good to fixate on one particular role, like "I want to compose superhero movies," or "I want to score the next 'Game of Thrones.'" Why? Because you never know how, and in what corner of music, your breakthrough will come. Maybe it turns out you're great at children's movies, or comedy, or something that you might not want to watch yourself, but it just happens you have a gift there.
> 
> *4. Don't decide out of fear* -- Many people, particularly older people, become risk-averse as they go through life. Why? They see disastrous friends' predicaments. So if people tell you not to pursue music or something else because it's "risky," remember that it's all risky. What happens if AI destroys half the legal or accounting profession? Those jobs won't look so secure either. Put another way, ask yourself, "if this DOES work out, would I be happy?" That said, it's not a bad idea to learn some way to make money on the side, hopefully music-related.
> 
> So my advice is, "be a good fellow, and be cheerful" whether you pursue music full time, only as a hobby, or not at all. I think that leads to a fuller, more satisfying life. Maybe not "happy" or precisely the life you dreamed of, but still worthwhile.


Thanks for this reply! Very helpful. To answer some of your questions:
Married? No I'm single. Want to be married? Definitely! Want to have a family, having kids definitely something I don't want to miss. I said this in another reply, I'm living in Sweden as of now. Would definitely move to a new country if I had the opportunity I feel I can't miss (like assisting someone or in house composer etc).
I definitely get your point of being careful of all the advices you get. I guess this is something very hard as you tend to listen to people you love/trust. I will always stay cheerful and humble. Thanks again!

Again I love all the responses from you! I think the topic can be relevant to many. I was just really sad when I posted this. But this thread made me feel better. And I'm not giving up. I will get my break in someway. Just have to find a new approach 



nas said:


> This may help to offer some perspective:



I like the video, but its not that easy. "Be an assistent" Well yeah, but you need to find someone first, find a way to approach them, having them listen to you, competing with a lot of people that want the same. If I could just write to someone at Bleeding Fingers for instance, and easy as that, get an position there, I would. Trust me, I've tried a few. Not easy now when I also live in Sweden during COVID. 



MSutherlandComp said:


> Hi Andrajas,
> 
> I am about to start a Master's in Screen Scoring degree at USC, but my _undergraduate_ degree is in Psychology. I think you have to find the answer to this question for yourself:
> 
> 
> 
> Regrets are part and parcel to life, and experience. Rolling with the punches can be hard sometimes, and certainly harder in difficult circumstances such as the current global situation regarding COVID.
> 
> On a personal note: I think you are being too hard on yourself! Just as John (very aptly) mentioned above, in the world we find ourselves in today, work is far from guaranteed in just about any profession. Such is certainly more-so the case in this profession than many others.
> 
> I think it's important to expand on John's point about cheerfulness as a psychological effect in this line of work. Keeping a positive outlook can be hard, but it will certainly pay dividends as time goes on. Being cheerful helps us to deal with tough times such as these, and helps us to connect with others as well. That makes finding friends, connections, and yes - clients - easier in the long term.
> 
> I have looked at some of the music that you have previously posted on this forum and I think it is quite good, and based on your questions etc, you have a passion for the work. All that remains is to answer your question for yourself.
> 
> What it boils down to is - will you get back up on the horse? No one can blame you, whether you answer yes or no. But I think that you have maybe dug yourself into somewhat of a negative perspective on this (though you mentioned many harsh realities). t's important that you think about past failures as learning experiences, and not as something to regret! It's not fair to yourself to look back on your failures and tell yourself that you will simply continue to fail.
> 
> As Einstein said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result". This is an inherently creative field; I know you must be a creative guy! If you give yourself a chance to go about things in a different way, maybe it will work out this time?
> 
> Apologies for any rambling or talking in circles, it is getting late, but I felt the need to tell you - life works itself out one way or another. If you make a plan, follow it, adapt, and keep your spirits up - I'm sure you'll find yourself in a much more secure position down the road. But, you have to keep giving yourself the opportunity to make life happen. Main takeaway: Don't be so hard on yourself!


Great respons. Thanks mate! And good luck at USC !


----------



## JohnG

Andrajas said:


> Not easy now when I also live in Sweden during COVID.



That is true; however, if you are from another country, try starting your network of expatriates-in-Sweden-from-[your_country]

When you're far from home (assuming you are far from home!) sometimes a fellow countryman who speaks your same language natively can be welcome when, otherwise, he might not pick up the call.

So if you know of someone with whom you have that potential connection, start there. Or pick your hobby -- juggling, chess, bridge, knife-fighting -- whatever thing you share. Then it's fun and there's something to discuss besides, "I need a job..."


----------



## Macrawn

SupremeFist said:


> Pretty sure Philip Glass was still driving a taxi at 27.


I think he was still driving a taxi at 37. I think he was 42 when he didn't have to drive that taxi again.


----------



## JohnG

[Philip Glass muttering voice] "It was a LIMO, dammit!"


----------



## nas

Karl Feuerstake said:


> It makes a lot of sense, but how do you reach out to Harry Gregson-Williams (or someone in a similar position) before that discussion of being an intern or assistant even begins?





Andrajas said:


> I like the video, but its not that easy. "Be an assistent" Well yeah, but you need to find someone first, find a way to approach them, having them listen to you, competing with a lot of people that want the same. If I could just write to someone at Bleeding Fingers for instance, and easy as that, get an position there, I would. Trust me, I've tried a few. Not easy now when I also live in Sweden during COVID.
> 
> 
> Great respons. Thanks mate! And good luck at USC !




Not all of the video is going to be relevant or practical to everyone's individual circumstances, but I think what really caught my ear was that here he was a very successful electronic music artist and DJ trying to get into film and it was much more difficult than he expected. He realized that at the very minimum it would take him at least a decade... and that's if he got lucky! Sometimes it never happens. He also said that at 45 years of age he was still considered by many in the business in Hollywood to be "young".

Even if you're not in Hollywood or interested in doing the kind of movies that Junkie XL does, it's sobering and ironically a relief to know that you're not the only one struggling and two years fresh out of your MA is NOTHING... you've got a long road ahead of you and your journey has barely even started!

Your life is not Junkie XL's life and your journey is exactly that... your own. It's going to be very challenging and at times very discouraging, but it's ultimately up to you to find a way to make it work - and sadly there's no gaurantee. 

I think though that you have the right attitude and your willingness to start and work your way up with humility and an easygoing nature is a great asset. Refining your skill set and tastes as well as having a quality in your work that is perhaps unique or takes a different approach is a major plus and can help differentiate your work from the rest. That doesn't neccesarrly happen overnight but it's worth striving for if you can hang in there and stay in the game.

Best of luck.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake

nas said:


> Not all of the video is going to be relevant or practical to everyone's individual circumstances, but I think what really caught my ear was that here he was a very successful electronic music artist and DJ trying to get into film and it was much more difficult than he expected. He realized that at the very minimum it would take him at least a decade... and that's if he got lucky! Sometimes it never happens. He also said that at 45 years of age he was still considered by many in the business in Hollywood to be "young".
> 
> Even if you're not in Hollywood or interested in doing the kind of movies that Junkie XL does, it's sobering and ironically a relief to know that you're not the only one struggling and two years fresh out of your MA is NOTHING... you've got a long road ahead of you and your journey has barely even started!
> 
> Your life is not Junkie XL's life and your journey is exactly that... your own. It's going to be very challenging and at times very discouraging, but it's ultimately up to you to find a way to make it work - and sadly there's no gaurantee.
> 
> I think though that you have the right attitude and your willingness to start and work your way up with humility and an easygoing nature is a great asset. Refining your skill set and tastes as well as having a quality in your work that is perhaps unique or takes a different approach is a major plus and can help differentiate your work from the rest. That doesn't neccesarrly happen overnight but it's worth striving for if you can hang in there and stay in the game.
> 
> Best of luck.



This is very kind and motivating advice and I can see your point. Cheers!


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## Rory

Macrawn said:


> I think he was still driving a taxi at 37. I think he was 42 when he didn't have to drive that taxi again.



Sounds like Nico Muhly got the better end of the deal


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## Markus Kohlprath

In all honesty. If you really mean you regret studying music and look at your pals having their happy family life I doubt a career as musician is the right thing for you. At least those musicians I met that make a living from it more or less are cut from another cloth. They don't think that way. But of course you have to find out yourself.


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## Rasoul Morteza

@Andrajas I understand you. There's a lot to say. I don't have the wisdom to prescribe any meaningful solution for your particular case.

The difficulty which comes with this field is quite outstanding. Sometimes it manifests itself through small struggles on a daily basis, doubting yourself and your decisions.

It happens a lot to myself. But then I rewind for a moment and listen to some of the music which made me go "wow" as a child years back in an environment void of much artistry. And that clears up everything for me, ready to go through the meat grinder for another day.

Your passion and perseverance might make you look like a fool, but you never know what may happen next.

Best of luck.

Cheers


----------



## rgames

Taking risks and not succeeding in your twenties is perfectly fine. In fact, I strongly recommend it - humanity is better off for it. Doing that in your forties, though... that's a problem because you run a much higher risk of becoming a burden to society. 

So you're fine. You're still figuring out what works for you. You have enough vision to realize you're not where you want to be and that counts for a lot. The people who wind up still chasing a dream in their forties (or just hanging out and not caring...) are the ones who don't have that kind of vision. Based on your post, that's not you.

The only caution I'll throw in here is for those who are younger and haven't yet started experimenting and taking risks: DON'T GO INTO DEBT.

Experiment and take risks in your twenties. But if you rack up a ton of debt doing that, that's a bad thing because it'll severely limit the rest of your life when you finally do get things figured out.

rgames


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Markus Kohlprath said:


> In all honesty. If you really mean you regret studying music and look at your pals having their happy family life I doubt a career as musician is the right thing for you. At least those musicians I met that make a living from it more or less are cut from another cloth. They don't think that way. But of course you have to find out yourself.



Good points. No reason why someone couldn’t have the best of both worlds....I do.


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## KEM

I hear ya, I’m 22 and even though everyone would consider me to be a kid I still feel like I haven’t accomplished enough yet...


----------



## Andrajas

Markus Kohlprath said:


> In all honesty. If you really mean you regret studying music and look at your pals having their happy family life I doubt a career as musician is the right thing for you. At least those musicians I met that make a living from it more or less are cut from another cloth. They don't think that way. But of course you have to find out yourself.



I don’t share the view that musicians tend not to have families. Most of my musician friends do. Why not aim for both? Maybe I miss understand you here


----------



## Keith Theodosiou

Having proper qualifications is not a guarantee of getting work in any occupation.

Now days there may be thousands going for one job. Yes, qualifications help but so does experiance.

At least you have the qualifications and that is always a good thing, it means you know that trade pretty well.

I saw a thread once on how to make it in the film/media world.
It basically said, find all your local video production companies and just email them.
Give them a little bio of yourself and leave a couple of links to your music. They will either get back to you or they won't.

If they do, you will probably get the answer i did. We liked your work but unfortunatly we do not need a composer at the moment but we will keep your details in our records.

Ok, that is probably a standard 'we are not interested in your music' but you never know and you haven't lost anything by trying.

Good Luck


----------



## Markus Kohlprath

Andrajas said:


> I don’t share the view that musicians tend not to have families. Most of my musician friends do. Why not aim for both? Maybe I miss understand you here


That is absolutely not what I meant. It´s not about not having a family it´s about what you worry about most and what you live and burn for no matter how live circumstances might develop. I admit that you probably must have a certain craziness from the standpoint of an average middle-class civic life. But most people I know in the music business are kind of special in that regard. Not in a bad sense. But you have to feel comfortable with that. First and foremost you aim for playing/composing and being involved in music whatsoever. Everything else comes along with it and doesn't cause regret or envy if it doesn`t. At least it was/is for me that way. I tried otherwise. Didn't work very well. 
Its about a mindset that is hard to understand for anyone who doesn't have it. And it´s not necessarily linked to the most talented ones. I've seen incredible talented guys making a fortune in economy or other businesses. They just are no musicians. And I wouldn't be surprised if Philip Glass would still drive Taxi and happily work on his music if he wouldn't have made it as he did. Who knows how many taxi drivers out there have some great stuff in their pockets.


----------



## suburst

I just wanted to say that its crucial in our life as humans to have a backup plan, in case our main goal job is not doing well, so many professions with Covid diminished and had hard times to keep up. Luckily some other fields stood up. 

Also many friends I know that were successful musicians in their young ages are now doing mixing-mastering work at side. I mean always have something backup plan to keep you alive.

I personally do graphics and music. Always have 2 professions in my opinion so you don't get ever hard times. Pick 2 you like, 1 of them is music of course! Because music is an incredible passion lots of people have. But get another backup work you like doing and be good at both! That's a formula naturally happened for me and so far I was lucky. I like graphics - visual art and music. I earned quite lots of money from both, and if one fails I still have the other.

Sometimes you earn from one work and then comes a time that the other work pays you back. So its a matter of timing. But do find a way to earn money in either way. Music is harder to be able to sustain you, and it needs as others said proper network and take a lot of time.! so choose your 2 professions! 2 is better than 1


----------



## InLight-Tone




----------



## telecode101

..


----------



## nolotrippen

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?




I dated a very nice young lady a long while back and her father told me he was convinced by other big band guys he worked with to not go into teaching but to come to LA to join a studio orchestra (such things existed!). So he did. And they were right! It was a great move. He played on a lot of film scores. Then, one by one, the studio orchestras went away. So he switched to session work -- not as dependable, but it paid the bills. Then that started going away so he added teaching on the side and played with the local orchestras (LA has a few). This guy had a long career, owned a home, raised a family, but there were always hic-ups, frustrations, and things that didn't last or just didn't happen. And he was a first rate musician (you can hear his trumpet solo on The Godfather). Hang in there. Keep fighting. Get a day job that will put food on the table and enjoy what music you can make.


----------



## jonathanparham

Macrawn said:


> I think he was still driving a taxi at 37. I think he was 42 when he didn't have to drive that taxi again.


thought he was a plumber


----------



## Macrawn

jonathanparham said:


> thought he was a plumber


Just going by this information. Talks about being a cab driver. I'm sure he did other things too. 








'I Expected to Have a Day Job for the Rest of My Life’


How Philip Glass went from driving taxis to becoming one of the most celebrated composers of our time




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Voider

Andrajas said:


> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....




I've just turned 30 and am nowhere near of that too. But don't rush because you feel the pressure of other peoples timelines, your life is yours, each life is unique, there is no plan that we all need to follow. You can be fit and healthy and happy with 40 still and just then have your wife and kids and house.

I am right now really considering to study business here for 3,5 years and keep making music meanwhile.

You don't need to work for others, why not work for yourself? You want passive income? Create courses, teach others on your own website (easy to do today, you can build a good looking website without being a programmer, plan and record courses and offer them for money, or do it through sites like udemy), you got so much knowledge and that is your benefit now. Create music, not for a gig, for someone else, but for you! Make an EP, make an album, put it on Spotify through sites like distrokid for 30 bucks a year, put it on bandcamp, get fans, expand your brand.

Might not be what your initial dream looked like, but it might get you decent passive income, it gives you the ability to keep making music and the more recognition you get, who knows, maybe that will lead to other gigs in the future. I think after your decent education and assistant jobs you don't need to look for any assistant jobs anymore, it's your turn to do the whole thing, because you'll never learn to do that unless you do that you know. But the things I named above, and there is way more to do, should be enough to fill the gap between now and better times.

There are people having just a 9 to 5 job and barely any hobbies or passion. You've got decent skills, you've got a passion, you can create worlds through music, you're young af - everything is fine mate! Doing a part-time job and working the other half on your music is far away from a worse life  And nobody can take that away. Enjoy it!


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## classified_the_x

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?



Many ppl who took expensive degrees feel the same as you (read that on Bloomberg these days). I did my MBA last year, (I do many things) but here I am, making music and trying to make some money off it. If you have a degree and masters on music, you have advantage over me, so think that way. My primary degree is law but although I'm a bar associate I don't practice and can't make big bucks off it (38 and no career to speak of). So, your investment in a music degree is making you have an edge over me, in the music dept... think that way, IMHO.


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## Mike Fox

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?


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## JonS

SDCP said:


> First of all, quit whinig and feeling sorry for yourself. This is NOT an easy line of work. If you get work, you are usually 1) well prepared (you are), and 2) you are in the right place at the right time. Those are the 2 "secrets" to working.
> 
> Henry Ford said, "Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right." Do you understand? If you think you will fail, you will.
> 
> Good luck.


What Henry Ford said is absolute bull. If you believe you can do something does not mean you will succeed at it and if you don't believe does not believe you won't succeed at it either. Life does not work that way at all. All any of us can do is do our best. But I can assure you that whether you believe you will succeed or not has nothing to do with whether one succeeds or fails.


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## telecode101

..


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## Daryl

I understand the angst of people who have a lot of debt through having got a degree, particularly in the US. However, as long as you understand why you did the degree, there is no need to regret it. For me, I studied at Music College, and what I learned there was about playing multiple instruments and about music. It didn't necessarily prepare me to get a job. The piece of paper I got was, in terms of employment, fairly useless. Did I get taught how to make money? No. However, do I regret it? Not for one minute.


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## jsnleo

I know what you're talking about. I got my bachelor degree in Finance but really hated to do that and I've been playing guitar ever since I was in high school. So I decided to get a degree in guitar and I've also taken audio engineering program. After my graduation, While I was searching for music related jobs I don't know why but I searched finance jobs. Oh my, they were just assistant jobs but 3 to 4 times the salary, and it was pretty hard to get a job in music industry for me at that time as I just graduated. I kinda regretted for a moment, actually it was more jealous, because some of my friends I met when I was studying finance have already been working for a few years, and I didn't know if it was a bad choice trying to make my hobby become a daily job, but I couldn't go back. Most of my friends working in music industry don't even work for a company, they gotta take care of all kinds of insurances and so on.

However, nothing makes me happier than making music, though sometimes it makes me angrier or more frustrating too. I know it's kinda an ideal vs reality thing, when you aren't able to make a living, nothing matters. I think if you want a steady job or high salary then maybe you've made a bad decision, but if you really love what you do, you just gotta keep trying.


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## ZenFaced

Going to school to learn how to compose or write music is the biggest waste of money. It's not going to make you a better writer or artist. It's a talent and you can't buy a talent. Either you have it or you don't.


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## marclawsonmusic

ZenFaced said:


> It's a talent and you can't buy a talent. Either you have it or you don't.



“Talent is cheaper than table salt. What separates the talented individual from the successful one is a lot of hard work.”

― Stephen King


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## Voider

ZenFaced said:


> Going to school to learn how to compose or write music is the biggest waste of money. It's not going to make you a better writer or artist. It's a talent and you can't buy a talent. Either you have it or you don't.



That's not true. First of all, talent is already a result of practice (even passive one) and nothing that just happens randomly, and second, studying something means that a school prepared all the material for you, guides you, motivates you with deadlines and projects to keep going, gives you mentors that you can ask everything you need to know and so on. You pay for the whole package of how information is prepared and delivered to you and how they support you to learn it and become good at it, and maybe for equipment you are allowed to use. Nobody goes to school believing you pay XX amount of money and then they transfer that skill instantly into your brain. 

We're not there yet. And if we were, you probably actually could buy "talent".


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## Nick Batzdorf

Andrajas said:


> I'm 27 years old.



To quote that famous philosopher Mick Jagger: "You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime, you find you get what you need. Oh yeah baby baby."


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## Uiroo

ZenFaced said:


> Going to school to learn how to compose or write music is the biggest waste of money. It's not going to make you a better writer or artist. It's a talent and you can't buy a talent. Either you have it or you don't.


I've never met a musician whose music I admire who holds that attitude.
Except for Ginger Baker, but he was an a*****e.

I don't think one does get very far thinking "I've just got it".


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## Rctec

Karl Feuerstake said:


> It makes a lot of sense, but how do you reach out to Harry Gregson-Williams (or someone in a similar position) before that discussion of being an intern or assistant even begins?


Look, I always say that the First lesson is to figure out where the door is and which bell to ring. And then... be Cool! I don’t want you to tell me about how good you are - because you’re - as the composer you are - what I need, What I need you don’t actually know yet.
i vividly and distinctly remember when Junkie became part of the team: I was trying to write some riff on an acoustic guitar, and sounded awful. Junkie just said “can you give me that for a second” and played my notes with a great feel. - he’s not actually a guitar player, but has attitude! Sometimes the feel of someone’s performance, sitting on a couch can make you realize that you want to make music and be friends for a lifetime...
Pharrell Williams had an amazing career going, but told me it took him years to break down my door- something I sort of wasn’t aware off. But I knew in a second that he was a completely original thinker - something so vital to a career. And all and every single one of the people I’ve worked with: Harry G-W, John Powell, JXL, Nick Glennie Smith, Pharrell, Pinar Toprak, Shirley Walker, etc, etc, all had one thing in common: a strong enough ego (we take talent and technical know-how for granted) to be totally flexible, to always shift direction on a dime, to know and embrace quality, to execute “Plan B” flawlessly - and to be willing and able to collaborate. To make My Idea (even if it was crap) their focus... until we figured out that it was shit.... 
My career? I just said “yes” a lot. Jingles, game shows - you name them. Working a lot assisting other composers. Never slept. And... since I hadn’t gone to music school, I always stayed behind after my part of a session was done. Learned A Lot about engineering and producing from Trevor Horn and George Martin, ...and, of course, my true mentor, Stanley Myers.
eventually your mentor - if he’s any good - will be double booked on something and hand the reigns of a project over to you. Just look confident and say yes.


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## Markrs

Rctec said:


> Look, I always say that the First lesson is to figure out where the door is and which bell to ring. And then... be Cool! I don’t want you to tell me about how good you are - because you’re not for what I need, which you don’t know yet.
> i vividly and distinctly remember when Junkie became part of the team: I was trying to write some riff on an acoustic guitar, and sounded awful. Junkie just said “can you give me that for a second” and played my notes with a great feel. Sometimes the feel of someone’s performance, sitting on a couch can make you realize that you want to make music and be friends for a lifetime...
> Pharrell Williams had an amazing career going, but told me it took him years to break down my door- something I sort of wasn’t aware off. But I knew in a second that he was a completely original thinker - something so vital t a career.
> My career? I just said “yes” a lot. Jingles, game shows - you name them. Working a lot assisting other composers. Never slept. And... since I hadn’t gone to music school, I always stayed behind after my part of a session was done. Learned A Lot about engineering and producing from Trevor Horn and George Martin, ...and, of course, my true mentor, Stanley Myers.
> eventually your mentor - if he’s any good - will be double booked on something and hand the reigns of a project over to you. Just look confident and say yes.


Great to have your thoughts on this Hans, it is easier for those of us that are doing it just for the pleasure of creating music.

I have listen to Trevor Morris and tom holkenborg talk about how hard they worked to get into the industry, the years of working 100 hour weeks. In this career people might think you made it because you were lucky or because you are supremely talented but I think Thomas Edison said it best "Genius: one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration."


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## Nick Batzdorf

Rctec said:


> Just look confident



And that part was my downfall when I was in my 20s.

It took me a long time to understand that everyone else on this bus is also a bozo!


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## Matt Damon

Here is one of the most important life lessons there is to learn:

Without sacrificing for what you want; what you want will become the sacrifice.

and very often, it comes down to a "one or the other" scenario. If you want to be a career musician, it is almost always the case that financial stability (and all the benefits that brings like family) will be the sacrifice. If you want financial stability and a family and to carry on your bloodline, etc. Then becoming a career musician is probably going to be the sacrifice.

Very few people ever can have it both ways.

It is my experience that there is no career, even when you're the greatest actor of all time, that is worth sacrificing family for.

And despite what boomers with 4 failed marriages acting like somehow how it's inherently supposed to be that way will tell you: 99.9% of people on this Earth will be a lot happier when they have a wife and kids than they will be slaving at away at whatever job. OP is obviously realizing that is the case.

and composers do slave away and then for some bizarre reason, wear their abuse like a badge of honor...

What most people are actually looking for when they want to become a professional musician or any other job in the arts is to do something that _means_ something. To create something that is good and will live beyond its creator.

Because modernity has robbed the world of all beauty and purpose. Going to work 9 - 5 in an office all day so some suit can buy another Ferrari, flipping carcinogenic fast food burgers, or working retail day after day just so that people can consooooom the latest plastic toys is just utterly meaningless and is increasingly unable to provide for a single person, never mind a family.

I'd urge you to consider that film and game composing are actually tied into this consumerist insanity as well. Your music doesn't actually mean more or have greater value just because it was made or attached to what is, at the end of the day, a consumer product.

It was the above realizations that made me realize it didn't really matter if I became a career composer or not.

Instead, I decided to become rich, hit it big in on the screen and have a lot of kids. Life is much better now.


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## Rctec

Markrs said:


> Great to have your thoughts on this Hans, it is easier for those of us that are doing it just for the pleasure of creating music.
> 
> I have listen to Trevor Morris and tom holkenborg talk about how hard they worked to get into the industry, the years of working 100 hour weeks. In this career people might think you made it because you were lucky or because you are supremely talented but I think Thomas Edison said it best "Genius: one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration."


”.... The Pleasure of writing Music”. Now, THAT’s what it’s all about. Forget The business (as Heitor Pereira was told on his first studio movie: “it’s called ShowBusiness, not ShowFriends...). Forget words like”business”, career, Hollywood. Write your music because you’d suffocate if you can’t. Yes, go to school - but that could mean so many things: hanging out with great musicians, painters, poets, writers - and yes, Film makers.
if you really want to know how to get in, hang with editors. They are forever looking for a piece that makes their cut work.
But the only guarantee you have, is - roll up your sleeves and put one little note in front of the next. And Love the process. Write to make yourself smile. Write every day. Just one piece for your self. Stay in training. And love Music for Music’s sake. It’s not a business. It’s ART. If you aspire to anything less, you’ll never work with a good film-maker...

and... get Paid for your Art!


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## MSutherlandComp

Rctec said:


> ”.... The Pleasure of writing Music”. Now, THAT’s what it’s all about. Forget The business (as Heitor Pereira was told on his first studio movie: “it’s called ShowBusiness, not ShowFriends...). Forget words like”business”, career, Hollywood. Write your music because you’d suffocate if you can’t. Yes, go to school - but that could mean so many things: hanging out with great musicians, painters, poets, writers - and yes, Film makers.
> if you really want to know how to get in, hang with editors. They are forever looking for a piece that makes their cut work.
> But the only guarantee you have, is - roll up your sleeves and put one little note in front of the next. And Love the process. Write to make yourself smile. Write every day. Just one piece for your self. Stay in training. And love Music for Music’s sake. It’s not a business. It’s ART. If you aspire to anything less, you’ll never work with a good film-maker...
> 
> and... get Paid for your Art!


This is what I've always told myself that it's all about. After reading so many jaded replies, it's very nice to see someone reaffirming the value of music for the sake of music, the joy of creating, and passion for the craft. Kudos!


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## Matt Damon

MSutherlandComp said:


> This is what I've always told myself that it's all about. After reading so many jaded replies, it's very nice to see someone reaffirming the value of music for the sake of music



Bruh that's what I said.

But no one cares about what Matt Damon says.

It's all about Hans Zimmer now.


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## JonS

MSutherlandComp said:


> This is what I've always told myself that it's all about. After reading so many jaded replies, it's very nice to see someone reaffirming the value of music for the sake of music, the joy of creating, and passion for the craft. Kudos!


What becomes much more real is creating Art when one comes from next to nothing or one sacrifices everything for their Art. It’s easy for kids of the wealthy to go into the Arts & Entertainment biz because they don’t have to survive so they can finger paint all day long for the rest of their lives and if they never make it, it doesn’t matter at all. Show me someone who sacrificed everything for their Art & didn’t come from money and then you will see a true Artist 👨‍🎨


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## Dr.Quest

jonathanparham said:


> thought he was a plumber


"In 1976 Philip Glass was an unknown composer — almost pushing 40, and driving a taxi to make ends meet — when he got his break: a new work performed at New York’s _echt_-prestigious Metropolitan Opera. “Einstein on the Beach” was directed by Robert Wilson, a key figure in the avant-garde; it was 4 ½ hours long, had no plot anybody could follow and drove a lot of listeners crazy. But almost overnight, it turned Glass into a household name."


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## Nick Batzdorf

I saw Philip Glass and his ensemble at the Rainbow on Sunset Blvd. in 1976 (when the Sunset Strip was the Sunset Strip).

Great performance.


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## Daryl

ZenFaced said:


> Going to school to learn how to compose or write music is the biggest waste of money. It's not going to make you a better writer or artist. It's a talent and you can't buy a talent. Either you have it or you don't.


However, you can learn craft and technique. The questions is, do these things get taught at college/university.


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## Andrajas

Just noticed this thread coming back again! I appreciate all the good points and advice people are giving. And thanks @Rctec for sharing your knowledge  

To update everyone: The situation is still kinda the same, but I have come to terms with certain things which makes life a bit easier for me to handle. I do really think things will get better. I'm still writing music everyday, improving my craft and getting my music out there. Most positive thing right now is that my music is getting placed frequently on TV. Thats always nice. I do wish to have more success working on films and games however, so I'm working towards that. The grind and the struggles continues I guess hehe!

Cheers!


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## thesteelydane

On the flip side, achieving the dream may make you miserable - the key to happiness is to never be so fixated on your “dream” that you don’t get any joy from whatever is in front of you right now, because after all whatever that is right now, it IS your life.
I’m 44 and for more than half my life, my only dream was to play violin in a professional orchestra. I spent my youth in a practice room and eventually got into conservatory. I ended up playing in various orchestras for 10 years, and discovered along the way that I greatly preferred playing viola. And then, after 10 years I realized that only playing other people’s music, under someone else’s creative vision wasn’t fulfilling anymore. I had achieved my dream and now I hated it. So I quit, and moved to Vietnam. Now my biggest dream is like you to be a full time film composer, and so that’s what I work on. All my money now comes from being a sample library developer, which I really enjoy, but it’s not an easy business. It’s also very time consuming and Covid19 has cut my income down by two thirds, so I’m frantically working on new libraries to make up for that - no time for composing right now, and I’m worried sick about my financial situation.
We’re basically in the exact same position, except you’re way ahead of me, being much younger and living in a country with a social safety net. I actually think you’re in a pretty good spot and I’m sure you’ll find your way!


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## JonS

thesteelydane said:


> On the flip side, achieving the dream may make you miserable - the key to happiness is to never be so fixated on your “dream” that you don’t get any joy from whatever is in front of you right now, because after all whatever that is right now, it IS your life.
> I’m 44 and for more than half my life, my only dream was to play violin in a professional orchestra. I spent my youth in a practice room and eventually got into conservatory. I ended up playing in various orchestras for 10 years, and discovered along the way that I greatly preferred playing viola. And then, after 10 years I realized that only playing other people’s music, under someone else’s creative vision wasn’t fulfilling anymore. I had achieved my dream and now I hated it. So I quit, and moved to Vietnam. Now my biggest dream is like you to be a full time film composer, and so that’s what I work on. All my money now comes from being a sample library developer, which I really enjoy, but it’s not an easy business. It’s also very time consuming and Covid19 has cut my income down by two thirds, so I’m frantically working on new libraries to make up for that - no time for composing right now, and I’m worried sick about my financial situation.
> We’re basically in the exact same position, except you’re way ahead of me, being much younger and living in a country with a social safety net. I actually think you’re in a pretty good spot and I’m sure you’ll find your way!


I think for those who get lucky 🍀 and become successful they may think that’s it’s their talent, hard work, hustle, determination and charisma that made them successful, this is not true. Some people believe 99% of luck is hard work, that’s not true either. The only time I can think of where cream rose to the top is John Williams. John Williams is simply a galaxy beyond anyone in the biz IMHO. Jerry Goldsmith was another genius whose talent was beyond the best of the best. But the other than John and Jerry, I don’t see anyone in recent memory that made it whose talent is beyond reproach. Most of the top composers got exceptionally lucky 🍀 while there will always be a vast number of talented composers who simply won’t get the opportunity at all to be the guy or be given a consistent chance to show their metal. 

There are just few too productions in film and tv every year for enough people to get major work, and the industry would much rather go back to the same people over and over again even if we keep hearing the same score they wrote over and over again being repeated in the next project. Occasionally we will hear innovation in a score like There Will Be Blood 🩸 or Birdman but for the most part the industry is not about Art at all and is more like a big soap 🧼 factory 🏭 cranking out the same like and kind film and tv production products over and over with the same directors, writers, actors, themes, plots, designers, composers, etc for consumers to distract themselves with.

The vast majority of scores by composers I really appreciate like Newman, Horner, Barry, Burwell, and even Williams as brilliant as he is sound the same or extremely similar to their prior work. I am not saying every single score they write are identical at all, but you can almost instantly hear whose score it is and hear similar chordal patterns, modes, tones, harmonies, rhythms, arrangements almost immediately. There is nothing wrong with finding your signature voice as a composer, it’s a spectacular moment when it happens.

And, so much of modern film scoring is simply derivative of the classical catalogue, no one does that better than John Williams, so it’s less about Artistry and more about imitation. Star Wars is Wagner not Williams. Troy is Holst not Horner. The great artists are not alive: Mozart, Wagner, Strauss, Holst, Beethoven, Bach, Mahler, Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Copeland, etc...Modern film composers are designers at a manufacturing plant cranking out soap bar after soap bar. It’s work so many want to get, but it’s not about artistry per say. One certainly needs talent as the hours are grueling, and the pressure to write so much music day in and day out is overwhelming, so to handle this gig one must have a lot of capability to create something interesting sounding no matter how derivative it may be of their prior work or the work of others. 

Realize too, any education is about regurgitation and imitation not innovation. Being an original artist is not something anyone can teach. You can be in a nurturing environment that fosters creativity but the invention part itself is not something one can learn in a book or classroom. So education as wonderful as it is does not automatically churn out innovation. 

Aspiring to be a film or tv composer requires something in no one’s control, luck 🍀. So you can write ✍ and composer endlessly and try to get to know as many directors, producers, editors and other filmmakers in the biz and at film schools 🏫 by putting yourself out there as that can only greatly help, but having that lucky break appear is in and of itself not in anyone’s control and the vast majority who try to succeed in this biz simply won’t on any appreciable level. Therefore, one really needs to be prepared for tremendous disappointment if your goal is to become a top A-list film and tv composer as there is no guaranteed path on how that unfolds.

Most people who graduate from music school every year with the goal of becoming a top film and tv composer will simply not succeed and it’s not because of their level of talent, determination or how hard they try, there are simply not enough new productions to accommodate all the aspiring composers out there and the industry in general prefers to work with the same people over and over again. So, being the next composer who breaks into the big factory is highly unlikely to happen for most people regardless of your education sadly. I wish I could tell you to hang in there and try to be optimistic but in reality this is just too difficult of an industry to count on success or even an at bat to get a swing at a chance of success. Even if you get a tv show or major film there is no guarantee you will get another one, so getting one chance to prove one’s talent is probably also not a guarantee of a long career unless the film is a blockbuster hit.


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## Karl Feuerstake

Rctec said:


> Look, I always say that the First lesson is to figure out where the door is and which bell to ring. And then... be Cool! I don’t want you to tell me about how good you are - because you’re - as the composer you are - what I need, What I need you don’t actually know yet.
> i vividly and distinctly remember when Junkie became part of the team: I was trying to write some riff on an acoustic guitar, and sounded awful. Junkie just said “can you give me that for a second” and played my notes with a great feel. - he’s not actually a guitar player, but has attitude! Sometimes the feel of someone’s performance, sitting on a couch can make you realize that you want to make music and be friends for a lifetime...
> Pharrell Williams had an amazing career going, but told me it took him years to break down my door- something I sort of wasn’t aware off. But I knew in a second that he was a completely original thinker - something so vital to a career. And all and every single one of the people I’ve worked with: Harry G-W, John Powell, JXL, Nick Glennie Smith, Pharrell, Pinar Toprak, Shirley Walker, etc, etc, all had one thing in common: a strong enough ego (we take talent and technical know-how for granted) to be totally flexible, to always shift direction on a dime, to know and embrace quality, to execute “Plan B” flawlessly - and to be willing and able to collaborate. To make My Idea (even if it was crap) their focus... until we figured out that it was shit....
> My career? I just said “yes” a lot. Jingles, game shows - you name them. Working a lot assisting other composers. Never slept. And... since I hadn’t gone to music school, I always stayed behind after my part of a session was done. Learned A Lot about engineering and producing from Trevor Horn and George Martin, ...and, of course, my true mentor, Stanley Myers.
> eventually your mentor - if he’s any good - will be double booked on something and hand the reigns of a project over to you. Just look confident and say yes.



Hey Hans, great to hear from you again, and thanks for the advice; it means a lot to me. Really cool hearing about your life as well!

At the moment I am getting ready for an upcoming Game Sound convention (hosted online), and your advice has inspired me to not only try to start some relationships with audio designers, but to meet composers as well. It sounds like beginning to look for a mentor would be a smart move for me at this stage, and I'm confident I can be of help to someone in some kind of way.

Thanks again, and I hope Dune is keeping you busy! Looking forward to seeing it.


----------



## JohnG

IDK. I don't think composers set about to repeat themselves. Sure, sometimes you hear of movies that, during editing, ladled in temp from the composer's previous movies and he's asked to ape himself. Maybe dreary, but part of the job sometimes. There are conspicuous examples I'm sure we can call to mind.

*We Are Not Robots*

But even if one is not intentionally repeating oneself, we are who we are. Having had a rare no-temp experience recently that required hours and hours of music, I think it sounds kind of like a body of work -- somewhat coherent anyway -- that reflects who I am at the moment, musically and as a person. Some of that consistency is conscious, some just kind of burbles up that way.

*Why It Sounds Like That*

We like what we like, and we just don't care for some music or techniques. Consistency in a body of work is partly conscious choice to _include_ materials, but also what to _exclude --_ scales, harmonic language, and themes. You start with x number of ideas and work them over, extend them, pull them apart and put them back in a different way. But quite a bit also reflects what we avoid -- what we _don't like. _Deliberately shunning some techniques or modes of musical expression is as crucial to what we do as what we include.

I decided to exclude from my project a legion of types of music or just techniques, some of which I actually like, or at least don't dislike, but which I think would have been wrong to use in this project, so -- it's not in there. The scope of music reflects the scope of the project; the story is set in medieval times, and spans decades and ranges in mood from gentle, intimate family scenes to momentous clashes. There is interesting material we're still recording and has not appeared, so I'm happy there will continue to be variety and some more or less experimental music coming. But it's never experimental just to be that way -- it's a response.

*Us*

As composers, we respond as humans do to scenes or characters or even quite abstract ideas. When I'm writing about a character dying, I can't help but reflect on those I've cared about who are no longer here. If you've had the experience of children, or profound disappointment or marriage or whatever, such experiences inevitably inform your responses. When I think of an abstract idea or even a logical argument, I dig around mentally until I can tie some kind of ideas to musical expression and put it in.

I think it's incumbent on us to search our sincere feelings to see what that brings about musically. The fastest way to rubbish is insincerity, either musically or personally. Some of my favourite composers have twee or sappy or sentimental or overly arch styles now and then -- it's just being a person and responding, sometimes, with what sounds like a cliché -- such moments may, nevertheless, be quite sincere (even if later they can feel a bit embarrassing).


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## dgburns

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?



Couple of thoughts, maybe this helps? maybe not ?


-People will give you advice, sometimes it’s not intended to be in your best interest, just FYI.

-Don’t worry about the guy next door and comparing yourself.

-If you intend to do it full time, than it is a business, and yes the money matters. (you will feel compelled to say ‘yes‘ to anything that walks in the door, but I disagree with some friends, saying no sometimes is the right call)

-You won’t feel in control of anything related to the work you do, nor the terms you get, especially starting out. (you should see some of these contracts, and the things you waive, such as liabilities and moral rights etc) 

-Learn everything you can about the business of film/tv, not just how the music fits into the big picture, this will give you better insights on if it’s for you or not.(hint- it’s not always pretty and greed/fear brings out the worst in people)

-Your education will yield dividends and opportunities you have not yet discovered, nor anticipated.

-Scoring music is no different than any other service related business. It’s all about their needs, and you are a work for hire situation. (people can talk all day about the ART, but that’s just camouflage, the truth is whoever has the power to make final approval gets to call it crap or awesome, and this is what good wine is for)

-Learn to Pivot. If they don’t need music, find out what they really need, and fill that need. Music is about 1-3% of the total budget give or take.

-Learn to be an entrepreneur, no seriously, it’s bigger than all the other things combined. ( some of us suck at it, some of us are genius at it ) The biggest names in the biz are entrepreneurs first, mostly.

-It’s easy to comment (crapping on) on a finished film thinking ‘you could do better’. But what most amateurs / aspiring composers never realize is what the conditions the composer was working under. Would you really have been able to better the result? Remember that you are not always the final decision maker here. Some careers were made because despite everything, they were just able to be a team player, and that goes a long way to getting re-hired. Repeat business makes a career.

More important than anything else, make friends. Lifelong friends, people you want around you. They will inspire you, drive you forward, and make the journey worthwhile.


apologies for the book.


----------



## thesteelydane

JonS said:


> I think for those who get lucky 🍀 and become successful they may think that’s it’s their talent, hard work, hustle, determination and charisma that made them successful, this is not true. Some people believe 99% of luck is hard work, that’s not true either. The only time I can think of where cream rose to the top is John Williams. John Williams is simply a galaxy beyond anyone in the biz IMHO. Jerry Goldsmith was another genius whose talent was beyond the best of the best. But the other than John and Jerry, I don’t see anyone in recent memory that made it whose talent is beyond reproach. Most of the top composers got exceptionally lucky 🍀 while there will always be a vast number of talented composers who simply won’t get the opportunity at all to be the guy or be given a consistent chance to show their metal.
> 
> There are just few too productions in film and tv every year for enough people to get major work, and the industry would much rather go back to the same people over and over again even if we keep hearing the same score they wrote over and over again being repeated in the next project. Occasionally we will hear innovation in a score like There Will Be Blood 🩸 or Birdman but for the most part the industry is not about Art at all and is more like a big soap 🧼 factory 🏭 cranking out the same like and kind film and tv production products over and over with the same directors, writers, actors, themes, plots, designers, composers, etc for consumers to distract themselves with.
> 
> The vast majority of scores by composers I really appreciate like Newman, Horner, Barry, Burwell, and even Williams as brilliant as he is sound the same or extremely similar to their prior work. I am not saying every single score they write are identical at all, but you can almost instantly hear whose score it is and hear similar chordal patterns, modes, tones, harmonies, rhythms, arrangements almost immediately. There is nothing wrong with finding your signature voice as a composer, it’s a spectacular moment when it happens.
> 
> And, so much of modern film scoring is simply derivative of the classical catalogue, no one does that better than John Williams, so it’s less about Artistry and more about imitation. Star Wars is Wagner not Williams. Troy is Holst not Horner. The great artists are not alive: Mozart, Wagner, Strauss, Holst, Beethoven, Bach, Mahler, Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Copeland, etc...Modern film composers are designers at a manufacturing plant cranking out soap bar after soap bar. It’s work so many want to get, but it’s not about artistry per say. One certainly needs talent as the hours are grueling, and the pressure to write so much music day in and day out is overwhelming, so to handle this gig one must have a lot of capability to create something interesting sounding no matter how derivative it may be of their prior work or the work of others.
> 
> Realize too, any education is about regurgitation and imitation not innovation. Being an original artist is not something anyone can teach. You can be in a nurturing environment that fosters creativity but the invention part itself is not something one can learn in a book or classroom. So education as wonderful as it is does not automatically churn out innovation.
> 
> Aspiring to be a film or tv composer requires something in no one’s control, luck 🍀. So you can write ✍ and composer endlessly and try to get to know as many directors, producers, editors and other filmmakers in the biz and at film schools 🏫 by putting yourself out there as that can only greatly help, but having that lucky break appear is in and of itself not in anyone’s control and the vast majority who try to succeed in this biz simply won’t on any appreciable level. Therefore, one really needs to be prepared for tremendous disappointment if your goal is to become a top A-list film and tv composer as there is no guaranteed path on how that unfolds.
> 
> Most people who graduate from music school every year with the goal of becoming a top film and tv composer will simply not succeed and it’s not because of their level of talent, determination or how hard they try, there are simply not enough new productions to accommodate all the aspiring composers out there and the industry in general prefers to work with the same people over and over again. So, being the next composer who breaks into the big factory is highly unlikely to happen for most people regardless of your education sadly. I wish I could tell you to hang in there and try to be optimistic but in reality this is just too difficult of an industry to count on success or even an at bat to get a swing at a chance of success. Even if you get a tv show or major film there is no guarantee you will get another one, so getting one chance to prove one’s talent is probably also not a guarantee of a long career unless the film is a blockbuster hit.



Oh I know, and I my age it's certainly impossible. My only advantage is that having played all the standard repertoire for a living for years has hopefully given me good taste and instinct. I know my music is shit, but I also know when I occasionally write a good tune. Apart from that I'm quite happy developing my sample library business, and if down the road I could get to work on a few independent art films every now and then, I will be happy and content with my life. As long as I don't have to teach (which I loath. It's an important job and should be done by someone who loves it) or play in orchestra, I will be happy. That said, I do sometimes miss playing in orchestra, but it's not something you can dip in and out off at a professional level, you must live the lifestyle of a performer, and I'm not interested in that anymore. I want to write and make sounds, as that's what satisfies me creatively.


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## JohnG

Well, David, I sort of disagree, I think. We all contend with the same burden Mozart or Haydn or Bach or the rest (ok, "most of") the "greats" did. We have masters who pay and we have to keep them satisfied.

So I think the trick is to at least try to create art, despite that burden. Sometimes maybe we have to sneak it in....


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## JonS

JohnG said:


> IDK. I don't think composers set about to repeat themselves. Sure, sometimes you hear of movies that, during editing, ladled in temp from the composer's previous movies and he's asked to ape himself. Maybe dreary, but part of the job sometimes. There are conspicuous examples I'm sure we can call to mind.
> 
> *We Are Not Robots*
> 
> But even if one is not intentionally repeating oneself, we are who we are. Having had a rare no-temp experience recently that required hours and hours of music, I think it sounds kind of like a body of work -- somewhat coherent anyway -- that reflects who I am at the moment, musically and as a person. Some of that consistency is conscious, some just kind of burbles up that way.
> 
> *Why It Sounds Like That*
> 
> We like what we like, and we just don't care for some music or techniques. That's how we are. Consistency in a body of work is partly conscious choice to _include_ materials, scales, harmonic language, and themes. You start with x number of ideas and work them over, extend them, pull them apart and put them back in a different way. But quite a bit also reflects what we avoid -- what we _don't like. _Deliberately shunning some techniques or modes of musical expression is as crucial to what we do as what we include.
> 
> Given the material on my project, there was / is a legion of types of music or just techniques, some of which I actually like, or at least don't dislike, but which I think would have been wrong to use in this project, so -- it's not in there. The scope of music reflects the scope of the project; the story spans decades and ranges in mood from gentle, intimate family scenes to momentous clashes. There is interesting material we're still recording and has not appeared, so I'm happy there will continue to be variety and some more or less experimental music coming. But it's never experimental just to be that way -- it's a response.
> 
> *Us*
> 
> As composers, we respond as humans do to scenes or characters or even quite abstract ideas. When I'm writing about a character dying, I can't help but reflect on those I've cared about who are no longer here. If you've had the experience of children, or profound disappointment or marriage or whatever, such experiences inevitably inform your responses. When I think of an abstract idea or even a logical argument, I dig around mentally until I can tie some kind of ideas to musical expression and put it in.
> 
> I think it's incumbent on us to search our sincere feelings to see what that brings about musically. The fastest way to rubbish is insincerity, either musically or personally. Some of my favourite composers have twee or sappy or sentimental or overly arch styles now and then -- it's just being a person and responding, sometimes, with what sounds like a cliché -- such moments may, nevertheless, be quite sincere (even if later they can feel a bit embarrassing).


John, I agree with what you said ☝ I think composers who are sincere and pure hearted are creating Art 🖼 It may not necessarily be perceived by others as Art, but that does not make it less valid for the composer. Composing for film and tv typically requires the approval of directors, producers, and studio execs, and even though that may feel like one’s Art is being controlled or limited in some way that does not mean the work itself is not astoundingly meaningful to the composer and listener.

So although I stated previously that the scores being created by composers these days are often largely derivative, whether unwittingly or consciously, of either their own prior work or from the classical catalogue that does not imply that this work is not just as artistic and meaningful to them regardless of its source of inspiration. I can easily get lost and delight in a John Williams score and not think about what previous music this sounds alike or is derived from. And, in the magic of that escape the music creates a timeless portal to all the wonders of the world tapping into the splendor of one’s imagination, thereby making Williams an ultimate artist, magician and shaman all at once.

So though Hollywood is a factory cranking out soap bars, those soap bars can allow any of us to cathartically feel, wash and cleanse our emotional palettes 🎨 enabling some tribal ritual to unfold whereby our souls are embraced by our senses to form some meaningful expression toward the unmasking of our collective unconscious and how we are all connected in this infinite quilt that makes the continuum of the universe undressing itself or dancing 💃 🕺 with itself through time.

Music is ruled by Neptune, God of the Oceans 🌊 Ruler of Romance, Illusion & Delusion. So when any composer creates music they are forging into the Neptunian parts in each of us and unleashing the powers of romance, dreams, illusions and fantasy, opening the paths of possibilities of the future or unearthing the portends of things to come, be they struggles, lessons, triumphs or defeats. In the end life is about emotional tastes (tests), and the journey by which we each experience the unmasking of reality.

When it comes to originality that’s a complex subject. We all speak a common language, in this forum most people can speak English. So how can any of our words be truly original? I feel the same way about almost everything. Furthermore, there is no patent office for personality, so it would be impossible for any of us to delineate where our personality is derived from our parents, or great great great grand parents for example, or from some native or unique part of oneself. And, even when innovation or originality is perceived is it truly unique or derived from some other person, soul, time or place in the infinite portends of the universe? Sometimes I feel like one of God’s little fax machines 📠 so when I think I’m being inspired or original am I really or is this energy or message coming from some other divine sources and I’m just receiving the message and then expressing it as best I can? Who knows....

I think the job of the film and tv composer is to service the director’s vision for the production. Hopefully this means pleasing both the director and yourself in the process. In life, IMHO I feel we are each on a journey of self-acceptance, and once we can embrace ourselves it makes it all the more easy for others to embrace themselves and each other. Hopefully 🙏 we become kinder, gentler and more magnanimous to our fellow mankind as time unfolds.


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## JohnG

I generally agree with your Romantic ideas of music, Jon. I do think there is something supernatural about it.



JonS said:


> I think the job of the film and tv composer is to service the director’s vision for the production.



This "serve the picture" idea is one I've heard for decades and I always wondered who sincerely believes it. Your twist is "serve the director's vision," which is slightly different.

I'm pretty mixed on that. I feel that we as composers and specialists in film are much less likely to just repeat the same old tired tropes if we are invited to collaborate, rather than just "paint from the colour wheel" like some housepainter being told by the homeowner exactly which shade of blue he wants the bathroom.

I get that we are servants and that, by the time we join the team, those working on it and running it may have been working already for YEARS. Nevertheless, we are _highly trained and skilled_ servants. I think part of our job is to have an opini0on -- maybe a strong opinion -- about musical choices, including spotting, tone, instrumentation, volume -- all of it. I have had plenty of "house painter" jobs and probably will have more, but I think the project suffers when we get sat on.


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## Ashermusic

John, of course we are hired for our expertise and then to give our vision.
But ultimately it isn’t “our film”, we are post production and probably have invested far less time and money in it, so if the director disagrees, we are obliged to give him or her what they think it needs. Or if we cannot, then walk away.


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## JohnG

I just don't agree, Jay. You make some fair points but I think that film, film music, the technology of film music and sound -- it's moved on. No matter how much any generalist -- and I would include directors and producers -- steep themselves in a project, they are increasingly dependent on technological / craft supporters who know more than they do -- cinematographers, digital artists, visual effects, lighting design (during and post production), set design, costumers, editors and composers.

I think it's a matter of degree sometimes, but this "serve the..." mentality is not really what I think is going on now. Entertainment used to be dominated by a small number of (mostly American) studios and a few networks (only one in some parts of the world).

Today it's totally insane, as we all can witness for ourselves. How much is Netflix' market cap? Bonkers. And they are serving up quite specialised niche slices for specialised audiences. Production, as we all know, is taking place world-wide.

I don't think the era of the Mighty Director is over exactly, but there certainly seems to be an embarrassingly poor level of art among "tentpole" pictures. I don't think I'm alone in seeing much of the most creative material migrating to the small screen and there I am also hearing, I think, some pretty crazy music.

I'm kind of groping around here but I think each project, today, has to differentiate. I don't think you do that by granting one person total artistic control. These days, I think that if you're the boss you have to listen more and direct less.


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## Ashermusic

John, unless things have changed greatly since the days I got hired to score projects , the composer can still have his score thrown out and replaced if the director or producer is unhappy and the composer cannot get them fired.


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## JohnG

Well, so what? I don't see how that changes anything I said.


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## JonS

JohnG said:


> I generally agree with your Romantic ideas of music, Jon. I do think there is something supernatural about it.
> 
> 
> 
> This "serve the picture" idea is one I've heard for decades and I always wondered who sincerely believes it. Your twist is "serve the director's vision," which is slightly different.
> 
> I'm pretty mixed on that. I feel that we as composers and specialists in film are much less likely to just repeat the same old tired tropes if we are invited to collaborate, rather than just "paint from the colour wheel" like some housepainter being told by the homeowner exactly which shade of blue he wants the bathroom.
> 
> I get that we are servants and that, by the time we join the team, those working on it and running it may have been working already for YEARS. Nevertheless, we are _highly trained and skilled_ servants. I think part of our job is to have an opini0on -- maybe a strong opinion -- about musical choices, including spotting, tone, instrumentation, volume -- all of it. I have had plenty of "house painter" jobs and probably will have more, but I think the project suffers when we get sat on.


I agree, John, that as specialists we should have strong opinions about the direction and creation of the musical score, but from my experience IMHO the director may have a specific viewpoint of what they want the music to encompass or sound like ie. they want techno music whereas I suggest a more traditional orchestral sound, when these dramatically different notions collide I can either try to fulfill their expectations or provide them a completely different alternative. I usually try to do both. Offer them my vision for the music and have ready and waiting an alternate version that may be more aligned with their expectations. In the end, it’s for the director to decide which cue they want, all I can do is give them choices. I wouldn’t say this is always an issue, usually it’s not and the music I am creating is approved, but it can be sometimes when my sensibility is not what the director is expecting, so these moments become a great opportunity to give them alternate ideas 💡 This can be more typical in film than tv as they sometimes have too much time to approve a cue or there are so many people who want to approve the cue that pleasing everyone can be challenging. Studio heads I find want to approve main title themes for tv so it’s not unusual when I’m speaking directly with a studio exec about the main title theme of a tv show. My job is to serve the story of the film or tv series or direct-to-video, but I have found that it’s important I’m working with the director’s vision of the production too. On a tv series sometimes the lead producer has more sway than the director when it comes to final say over approval of a music cue. There have been times when the director adored a cue which the producer did not and visa versa. This is usually when I feel like a ping pong ball 🏓

Realize this, John, even when I am giving alternative musical ideas it’s always still my music that I am creating, it’s not like I’m orchestrating the three notes Clint Eastwood plays on a piano when he writes one of his three-blind-mice ripoff scores.


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## JonS

JohnG said:


> Today it's totally insane, as we all can witness for ourselves. How much is Netflix' market cap? Bonkers. And they are serving up quite specialised niche slices for specialised audiences. Production, as we all know, is taking place world-wide.
> 
> I don't think the era of the Mighty Director is over exactly, but there certainly seems to be an embarrassingly poor level of art among "tentpole" pictures. By contrast, I don't think I'm alone in seeing much of the most creative material migrating to the small screen and there I am also hearing, I think, some pretty crazy music.


Amen 🙏 to that!! There definitely is an embarrassingly poor level of art among “tentpole” pictures AND a ton of other junk product being slapped out by the film & tv factory 🏭 too!!


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## JohnG

It's funny you should bring up Clint Eastwood's compositions. They are very simple -- and often pretty effective. Worth remembering! I think of his approach quite frequently.

Well, things are always changing. I'm sure they'll be different next year.


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## JonS

JohnG said:


> It's funny you should bring up Clint Eastwood's compositions. They are very simple -- and often pretty effective. Worth remembering! I think of his approach quite frequently.
> 
> Well, things are always changing. I'm sure they'll be different next year.


Lennie Niehaus was terrific!!


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## Rasoul Morteza

I do not want to sound like a fanboy, but to have such accomplished members help others on such personal level is one outstanding quality of our community.

Thank you for reminding that music is an art. Any deviation from that principle brings degradation and frustration. True artistry is born of no reason for its creation.

There is a Zen saying that "Principle is realized all at once, while things are worked out gradually".

Cheers


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## Jeremy Spencer

JonS said:


> it’s not like I’m orchestrating the three notes Clint Eastwood plays on a piano when he writes one of his three-blind-mice ripoff scores.



Actually, the score for "Bridges of Madison County" (that he composed with Niehaus) is one of my all time fav's, especially "Doe Eyes". Just goes to show that even the simplest scores can be perfect for a film.


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## JonS

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Actually, the score for "Bridges of Madison County" (that he composed with Niehaus) is one of my all time fav's, especially "Doe Eyes". Just goes to show that even the simplest scores can be perfect for a film.


Lennie must have done a really good job for you and John to love Clint's work!


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## Umi_Yu

I decided to become a media music creator on my 30-year-old birthday.

During that time, my friends were all enjoying their life with family, kids, cars, houses while I was single, not quite satisfied with IT job, having almost no savings because I spent a lot of money on music software and hardware etc,.

I studied economics in the university, totally having no music education but I feel comfortable and happy when I make noises with my music staff in my little room.

On my 30-year-old birthday I told myself: If I continue my work in IT company I could be fired anytime because of my low motivation and I believe I could not catch up my friends in the course of standard life so why not do something I love and enjoy even I could end up my life alone?

Then I took action. During the day I was "working (most time slept)" in the IT company for the basic salary and during the night I was making tracks for fun or anyone who gave me chances no matter if I could get paid. Besides I joined online courses and offline music events for learning. This kind of life lasted for entire two years. And then the company finally fired me and I basically lost my income and had to use all my very limited savings, do daywork. I was also unable to pay my room rent and had to live in my friend's house, sleeping on sofa everyday for almost one year...Though it was hard and most of time I had to do all things alone in my very small space but I had fun and got positive feedback from people who gave me chances.

Finally now I get a position in the industry both in Japan and China, knowing more big names and big clients...

You are still young and you have qualified education, I am sure if you have faith and love for music and do not surrender to the current difficulties easily you will finally overcome and have achievements!


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## Per K

I feel I might have a unique perspective on this as I too was once 27 and miserable in Sweden.

I was watching a lot of movies and enjoyed the music in "The Weather Man" (written by people in this very thread) and decided try something out of my wheelhouse. Something with bells in 6/8, sort of a modern, glass-pad, percussive melancholic track. I liked how it turned out but didn't really do anything with it. As it turns out, one of the few connections I had suddenly got asked if they had a demo to send in for a major documentary. I sent the track and it got picked and suddenly I was scoring a big documentary in the UK from my mothers basement. 

Since then I've written for docs and music-libraries and sort of made a living at it for 15 years, sometimes an awesome living, sometimes living off savings.
The one throughline is that I always try to find the joy of creation while writing, even if it just ends up on my harddrive or ununsed in a small library. You never know who
might hear it... most of the time its maybe just the owner of a library that takes a liking to you which can get you opportunities to pitch for theme-songs or whatever is going on that week.

My youtube-page is in my profile, if you like what you hear maybe we could collaborate on a track? I might need an educated point of view!


----------



## snowleopard

I haven't posted here in I don't know how long but wanted to write from the other side of the fence. To those of you who look at your friends who have a "career job", family, and seem to have it all together, I feel compelled to set things straight. If you're thinking being married makes everything great, I'm here to tell you it doesn't. The same goes with having children, as well as so called career jobs, or steady jobs. They barely exist, a fair amount of what you are seeing is a mirage, a performance. Our grass is green because we paint it that color with the pocket change we have. 

Just to give you an example. I've had what you think of as steady career jobs. One paid close to $100k a year with great benefits. It mostly was sitting in a cubicle, and endless meetings, conference calls, and reams of e-mail, often listening to asinine requests from people, frequently wondering what I was doing with my life. Yes, there are people who have dream jobs, love what they do, and are paid well for it. But that's not most people. Most people don't like their jobs, are often stressed about it, know in their gut it's a compromise, and tolerate it, while wishing we were living our dream the way you full-time film composers are, instead of it being a hobby we dabble in between the endless chores around the house, with the family, unpaid overtime work from being on a salary, etc. 

Like tens of thousands of other people, I too lost a career job. The notion that the economy was roaring in 2019 was a joke, unemployment was low because everyone was working part time for minimum wage for Jeff Bezos, or Walmart. Even those of us in so-called career jobs often felt on the fringe, and C-19 just pushed that over the edge. Now, after months of not finding any work, I eventually got a part-time job in retail. I work next to an attorney, a PhD, a teacher, a former director of communications with an MBA. I've now reached a point where I qualify for food stamps, and Medicaid. Statistics say I'm in the twenty percentile, along with one in five people today in the US, including most of my new co-workers I imagine. This is the new norm. 

As to marriage, it is a LOT of work. It was before the economy collapsed. It always is. It's not all lovey dovey romantic comedies. No, it's not War of the Roses either, but it's not filled with daily happiness. The same with children. Those thoughts exist, and they can be wonderful, but they are often fleeting as well, between the draining effort we put out to make it work. Many of us can't, and end up in divorce. You've heard the statistics, I'm sure. 

So please, if you're a struggling composer, or struggling anything in the entertainment industry, and look over at that three bedroom house and a couple with kids out front watering our lawn, don't for one second think we have it made. Not. Even. Close.


----------



## chillbot

snowleopard said:


> As to marriage, it is a LOT of work. It was before the economy collapsed. It always is. It's not all lovey dovey romantic comedies. No, it's not War of the Roses either, but it's not filled with daily happiness. The same with children. Those thoughts exist, and they can be wonderful, but they are often fleeting as well, between the draining effort we put out to make it work. Many of us can't, and end up in divorce. You've heard the statistics, I'm sure.


I'm sorry this didn't work out for you. Seems like kind of a big generalization to blast the entire process though. I tend to think that having a wife and kids is literally the best thing(s) that ever happened to me.


----------



## Voider

snowleopard said:


> Just to give you an example. I've had what you think of as steady career jobs. One paid close to $100k a year with great benefits. It mostly was sitting in a cubicle, and endless meetings, conference calls, and reams of e-mail, often listening to asinine requests from people, frequently wondering what I was doing with my life.



You contrast being in a job you dislike vs. doing what you like, but that's not even half of the story imho. At first, there are tons of other jobs you could do that (hopefully) make you more happy, and that still give you the "safe" income. Second, you might not enjoy the time you spend at your job, but you enjoy having a car, holidays around the world, being able to afford stuff you like for your hobbies/etc, going out with friends, saving up for your own house, paying into pensions office and so on: Things that are only possible when having a decent income.

Because if you are, opposed to that, a mediocre succesful composer who loves his job but has a very low income, you won't enjoy all the other things that you had before and I wouldn't quite say that they're unimportant. Especially if you consider that you could actually enjoy and like your job, have good co-workers to work with AND the salary.

Last but not least I don't see the connection to a marriage, no matter if you work in a restaurant, as programmer or composer: You can marry, and it can turn out well or bad.


----------



## JonS

snowleopard said:


> I haven't posted here in I don't know how long but wanted to write from the other side of the fence. To those of you who look at your friends who have a "career job", family, and seem to have it all together, I feel compelled to set things straight. If you're thinking being married makes everything great, I'm here to tell you it doesn't. The same goes with having children, as well as so called career jobs, or steady jobs. They barely exist, a fair amount of what you are seeing is a mirage, a performance. Our grass is green because we paint it that color with the pocket change we have.
> 
> Just to give you an example. I've had what you think of as steady career jobs. One paid close to $100k a year with great benefits. It mostly was sitting in a cubicle, and endless meetings, conference calls, and reams of e-mail, often listening to asinine requests from people, frequently wondering what I was doing with my life. Yes, there are people who have dream jobs, love what they do, and are paid well for it. But that's not most people. Most people don't like their jobs, are often stressed about it, know in their gut it's a compromise, and tolerate it, while wishing we were living our dream the way you full-time film composers are, instead of it being a hobby we dabble in between the endless chores around the house, with the family, unpaid overtime work from being on a salary, etc.
> 
> Like tens of thousands of other people, I too lost a career job. The notion that the economy was roaring in 2019 was a joke, unemployment was low because everyone was working part time for minimum wage for Jeff Bezos, or Walmart. Even those of us in so-called career jobs often felt on the fringe, and C-19 just pushed that over the edge. Now, after months of not finding any work, I eventually got a part-time job in retail. I work next to an attorney, a PhD, a teacher, a former director of communications with an MBA. I've now reached a point where I qualify for food stamps, and Medicaid. Statistics say I'm in the twenty percentile, along with one in five people today in the US, including most of my new co-workers I imagine. This is the new norm.
> 
> As to marriage, it is a LOT of work. It was before the economy collapsed. It always is. It's not all lovey dovey romantic comedies. No, it's not War of the Roses either, but it's not filled with daily happiness. The same with children. Those thoughts exist, and they can be wonderful, but they are often fleeting as well, between the draining effort we put out to make it work. Many of us can't, and end up in divorce. You've heard the statistics, I'm sure.
> 
> So please, if you're a struggling composer, or struggling anything in the entertainment industry, and look over at that three bedroom house and a couple with kids out front watering our lawn, don't for one second think we have it made. Not. Even. Close.


What a great film!!! Always get bonus point for being truthful!!! Great post!!


----------



## snowleopard

JonS said:


> What a great film!!! Always get bonus point for being truthful!!! Great post!!



Touche! I probably painted quite a dark picture there and overdid it in my honesty.  But yes, a great film!

I think my point is that it eats at me when single people are struggling with an aspect of a career that is based on gig or freelance work, look to others who have families and day jobs and seem to believe if they had only taken that same path their lives would be "easy" too. I'm just trying to remind anyone, like the OP, that there are a lot of ups and downs with regular jobs, relationships, and families. And the smile, or stability they seem to possess to you comes from a lot of work. Good times, and bad times too.


----------



## Daryl

snowleopard said:


> Touche! I probably painted quite a dark picture there and overdid it in my honesty.  But yes, a great film!
> 
> I think my point is that it eats at me when single people are struggling with an aspect of a career that is based on gig or freelance work, look to others who have families and day jobs and seem to believe if they had only taken that same path their lives would be "easy" too. I'm just trying to remind anyone, like the OP, that there are a lot of ups and downs with regular jobs, relationships, and families. And the smile, or stability they seem to possess to you comes from a lot of work. Good times, and bad times too.


If a prospective composer actually thinks they have a choice, then composing is probably not the right career move. I don't think I know a single successful composer where music is not the most important thing in their life. That's not to say one can't have a family. It's just that the family needs to know, and accept the usual pecking order..!


----------



## José Herring

snowleopard said:


> I haven't posted here in I don't know how long but wanted to write from the other side of the fence. To those of you who look at your friends who have a "career job", family, and seem to have it all together, I feel compelled to set things straight. If you're thinking being married makes everything great, I'm here to tell you it doesn't. The same goes with having children, as well as so called career jobs, or steady jobs. They barely exist, a fair amount of what you are seeing is a mirage, a performance. Our grass is green because we paint it that color with the pocket change we have.
> 
> Just to give you an example. I've had what you think of as steady career jobs. One paid close to $100k a year with great benefits. It mostly was sitting in a cubicle, and endless meetings, conference calls, and reams of e-mail, often listening to asinine requests from people, frequently wondering what I was doing with my life. Yes, there are people who have dream jobs, love what they do, and are paid well for it. But that's not most people. Most people don't like their jobs, are often stressed about it, know in their gut it's a compromise, and tolerate it, while wishing we were living our dream the way you full-time film composers are, instead of it being a hobby we dabble in between the endless chores around the house, with the family, unpaid overtime work from being on a salary, etc.
> 
> Like tens of thousands of other people, I too lost a career job. The notion that the economy was roaring in 2019 was a joke, unemployment was low because everyone was working part time for minimum wage for Jeff Bezos, or Walmart. Even those of us in so-called career jobs often felt on the fringe, and C-19 just pushed that over the edge. Now, after months of not finding any work, I eventually got a part-time job in retail. I work next to an attorney, a PhD, a teacher, a former director of communications with an MBA. I've now reached a point where I qualify for food stamps, and Medicaid. Statistics say I'm in the twenty percentile, along with one in five people today in the US, including most of my new co-workers I imagine. This is the new norm.
> 
> As to marriage, it is a LOT of work. It was before the economy collapsed. It always is. It's not all lovey dovey romantic comedies. No, it's not War of the Roses either, but it's not filled with daily happiness. The same with children. Those thoughts exist, and they can be wonderful, but they are often fleeting as well, between the draining effort we put out to make it work. Many of us can't, and end up in divorce. You've heard the statistics, I'm sure.
> 
> So please, if you're a struggling composer, or struggling anything in the entertainment industry, and look over at that three bedroom house and a couple with kids out front watering our lawn, don't for one second think we have it made. Not. Even. Close.


Great post and so true in many ways.

I ran across one of your post from years ago just yesterday and I was thinking what ever happened to that guy? Now here you are. Welcome back.


----------



## JonS

snowleopard said:


> Touche! I probably painted quite a dark picture there and overdid it in my honesty.  But yes, a great film!
> 
> I think my point is that it eats at me when single people are struggling with an aspect of a career that is based on gig or freelance work, look to others who have families and day jobs and seem to believe if they had only taken that same path their lives would be "easy" too. I'm just trying to remind anyone, like the OP, that there are a lot of ups and downs with regular jobs, relationships, and families. And the smile, or stability they seem to possess to you comes from a lot of work. Good times, and bad times too.


I don't think you painted too dark a picture, you painted a realistic one. 50% of marriages end in divorce and that number only goes up the more one re-marries someone else. 67% of all divorces are initiated by women. For those whose lives are wonderful, give it time, tragedy touches every one at some point. The people I have met who are extremely wealthy all have destroyed marriages where each spouse is in a relationship outside the marriage and they don't even sleep together anymore. The only reason that they don't get divorced is the wealthier partner does not want to give any of their wealth outright to their spouse.


----------



## JohnG

Daryl said:


> I don't think I know a single successful composer where music is not the most important thing in their life. That's not to say one can't have a family. It's just that the family needs to know, and accept the usual pecking order..!



Well -- can't agree about the priorities there. My family is number one. I love music (or at least seem to be like one of those motors that just can't stop) but I would never sacrifice what I have at home for a career in any particular field, no matter how dear to me personally.

Maybe we don't disagree in a way; work, of whatever kind, artistic or not, does occupy a high priority for most in capitalist economies. So many people who make excellent money spend 60 hours or more a week at the office, plus early / late / weekend emails and calls at home. It is incumbent on each of use to make sure the pursuit of money doesn't dislodge the other things that, in our better moments, we hold most dear.


----------



## JohnG

snowleopard said:


> I'm just trying to remind anyone, like the OP, that there are a lot of ups and downs with regular jobs, relationships, and families. And the smile, or stability they seem to possess to you comes from a lot of work. Good times, and bad times too.



True.


----------



## Daryl

JohnG said:


> Well -- can't agree about the priorities there. My family is number one. I love music (or at least seem to be like one of those motors that just can't stop) but I would never sacrifice what I have at home for a career in any particular field, no matter how dear to me personally.


Yes, but it's not just about a career. It's about music. I have to be honest. If I had to choose, meaningless though that is, music would win. Every time. Career would not.


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## JohnG

not sure I understand, @Daryl

maybe a language thing or I was overly brief in using the word, "career?" I meant that I would much rather earn my living and spend most of my time on music but, if that didn't bring in enough money, I would (reluctantly) do something else rather than upend the family.


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## AlexRuger

Perused the comments in this thread and this came to mind:

One of the most difficult aspects of these sorts of career questions is that generalizations are nearly impossible. There are near-infinite permutations even within a general "type," i.e. there are loads of different ways to go about being a composer and some will make you miserable and some you will love. Generally speaking, I dislike working in an office, but it'd be silly to completely write off all jobs that apply to that type, because I'm sure there are some situations I could totally enjoy. We can only let the generalizations guide our paths, not dictate them. 

It seems that the vast majority of people (myself included) will look from thing to another on the macro level. For example, I went through a serious crisis of faith with regards to a composing career that lasted for a few years. I looked to what else I could do, tried different things, and still ended up dissatisfied. Only when I began looking into what _specifically _about _my situation as a composer _wasn't working for me did I finally start finding some semblance of contentment. The problem was the micro, not the macro. But of course I had to start by deciding that a composing career itself was the problem to eventually arrive at the understanding that it wasn't -- the problem was the shape mine had taken.

This isn't to say that things can't be fundamentally incompatible at a macro level. Of course they can. But, while cheesy, "the grass is greener where you water it" is 100% the closest thing to a truism I've come across.


----------



## Sopris

AlexRuger said:


> Perused the comments in this thread and this came to mind:
> 
> One of the most difficult aspects of these sorts of career questions is that generalizations are nearly impossible. There are near-infinite permutations even within a general "type," i.e. there are loads of different ways to go about being a composer and some will make you miserable and some you will love. Generally speaking, I dislike working in an office, but it'd be silly to completely write off all jobs that apply to that type, because I'm sure there are some situations I could totally enjoy. We can only let the generalizations guide our paths, not dictate them.
> 
> It seems that the vast majority of people (myself included) will look from thing to another on the macro level. For example, I went through a serious crisis of faith with regards to a composing career that lasted for a few years. I looked to what else I could do, tried different things, and still ended up dissatisfied. Only when I began looking into what _specifically _about _my situation as a composer _wasn't working for me did I finally start finding some semblance of contentment. The problem was the micro, not the macro. But of course I had to start by deciding that a composing career itself was the problem to eventually arrive at the understanding that it wasn't -- the problem was the shape mine had taken.
> 
> This isn't to say that things can't be fundamentally incompatible at a macro level. Of course they can. But, while cheesy, "the grass is greener where you water it" is 100% the closest thing to a truism I've come across.


I love everything you've said here. When we're so hyper focused on one singular vision we can lose sight of the macro picture, we can lose sight of living itself. It certainly has happened to me. I moved to LA 4 years ago with my sights set on building my film composing career. I became so identified with being a film composer that when jobs didn't come in quickly enough it really led to a lot of depression. I remember renting a house up in the valley just feeling like the spark had completely gone, but honestly it was life I was missing. I'd thrown all my eggs into the film composer basket and forgotten to look around and enjoy this beautiful world, this happens to so many creative people. 

I knew I needed to throw a wrench in the works so I did the most terrifying thing I could do and I joined an acting class. It was scary as hell but God did I need that! I was in love with learning a new craft, acting is absolutely fascinating and scratched an itch I really wasn't aware of, that first class made me feel more alive than I have ever felt writing music in a room alone, it made me realize how important it is to PLAY with other people. Also everything I learned in the class has translated into music, changed the way I write completely and added to my craft. Life has found me again since I made that decision.

I'm not too sure why I'm putting all this out there but someone might find it useful, the main thing I learned was to never identify with one specific thing, I'll go as far as to say I'm an artist, which is a wide umbrella but I'll never limit my vision again. We all have the blinders on to a certain extent and I feel so much more free to have taken them off, or at least be made aware of them.


----------



## musicbyjoao

It is a very hard path. Today, I don't advise an expensive Film Scoring degree. The money being poured there can be used for investing on the crazy amount of sample libraries we all use. Not to mention the hardware too that you'll need to run it smoothly. I think people are better off learning from the internet (there's just so much content and interviews available) and then go out and network and start applying your knowledge and learn from experience.

I majored in Film Scoring at Berklee College of Music. I loved my friends and teachers/mentors. I hated whenever there was a snow day and the school would close, because that's how much I loved what I was doing. I worked with a 3-time Emmy nominee composer (who I still talk to today) for a 1st time project back then. That paved the way for other students to participate on the project and even tour in some places with it. After the concert we performed, the standing ovation and all, I remember being at the party afterwards just half jokingly commenting "this is probably going to be all downhill from here".

I came back to Europe knowing life would be different and harder. It wasn't all downhill, it turned out. I've worked on projects that I'm very proud about. But financially, it hasn't stopped being a struggle. I have the preparation but the opportunity hasn't appeared. The one where it will bring some stability. I moved from Portugal to Ireland and took several day jobs during my time there while working on music at night. I'm now in Belfast with my fiancée who's from here. I'm working on 3 budget proposals and completing 2 projects. There are ups and downs.

I'm also lucky that, whenever I mentioned to my family about changing jobs, they all insist for me to keep going.

Basically, "feet to the ground and head to the heavens". Be realistic and don't stop dreaming. Even if you don't achieve it. Just do for the pleasure of it.


----------



## mscp

JohnG said:


> Hello Andrejas,
> 
> I read through this thread but I don't think I know anything much about you other than your education and age and, it appears, that you write well in English but you didn't grow up in an English-speaking country. Maybe you're married? Maybe not? Maybe you want to be? We don't know.
> 
> Only you can decide what you really want out of life, so I would caution you before you take too much advice -- from anyone. You can get really terrible advice even from friends or your family who have your best interest at heart, and certainly from people whom you don't know on an Internet forum.
> 
> In some countries there is still a decent social backstop from the government. That is not true in the US anymore; you can literally starve or end up in your car (if you have one) being hassled all the time and rejected everywhere. So when people urge you to "go for it," consider that some saying that may live in countries where the worst that can happen is that you live off a very small government handout. Not great, but you can survive. That is not the picture in every country.
> 
> On the brighter side, as many have pointed out, you still have a lot of time to get somewhere. So, a few thoughts:
> 
> *1. Relationships in work *-- Success can come early or late in life -- for some, decades later -- but it doesn't arise primarily from technical expertise or being "the greatest composer." It comes from friendships and working relationships. Someone suggested maybe being a Pro Tools operator, or studio tech. That's a good idea for some people. If you follow that route, be the most helpful, friendliest, most diplomatic, and funny Pro Tools operator around, so you can keep working. That way you get to hang around with people who are working and get paid. If you can play an instrument or sing professionally, maybe you get to contribute on a track, and that can lead somewhere. Don't worry if it's for free at first, as long as it's not long term exploitation. Winners, in any industry, keep asking, "what can I do to help?" instead of "what's in it for me?"
> 
> Example: There are hundreds of superb guitar players in Los Angeles. I usually hire the same guy because I know he's superb too, but also a good person, loves his family, and he's CHEERFUL. "Cheerful" is underestimated as a life skill.
> 
> *2. Relationships with family* -- If you marry or have children, those relationships come first. Nothing else is more important; certainly not how you make money. If you can cultivate a happy marriage and live up to your obligations at home and in your community (volunteering to help the poor or honouring your religious duties if you have any), I think it contributes to your success in music or any other career. I don't like people who disregard obligations or are cruel to those down the social or work scale from them and I don't want to work with people like that. I find that, over time, other people feel the same way, even if it's not obvious at first.
> 
> *3. Flexible Dreams -- *It is not good to fixate on one particular role, like "I want to compose superhero movies," or "I want to score the next 'Game of Thrones.'" Why? Because you never know how, and in what corner of music, your breakthrough will come. Maybe it turns out you're great at children's movies, or comedy, or something that you might not want to watch yourself, but it just happens you have a gift there.
> 
> *4. Don't decide out of fear* -- Many people, particularly older people, become risk-averse as they go through life. Why? They see disastrous friends' predicaments. So if people tell you not to pursue music or something else because it's "risky," remember that it's all risky. What happens if AI destroys half the legal or accounting profession? Those jobs won't look so secure either. Put another way, ask yourself, "if this DOES work out, would I be happy?" That said, it's not a bad idea to learn some way to make money on the side, hopefully music-related.
> 
> So my advice is, "be a good fellow, and be cheerful" whether you pursue music full time, only as a hobby, or not at all. I think that leads to a fuller, more satisfying life. Maybe not "happy" or precisely the life you dreamed of, but still worthwhile.



This x 1,000,000


----------



## Farkle

Matt Damon said:


> Here is one of the most important life lessons there is to learn:
> 
> Without sacrificing for what you want; what you want will become the sacrifice.
> 
> and very often, it comes down to a "one or the other" scenario. If you want to be a career musician, it is almost always the case that financial stability (and all the benefits that brings like family) will be the sacrifice. If you want financial stability and a family and to carry on your bloodline, etc. Then becoming a career musician is probably going to be the sacrifice.
> 
> Very few people ever can have it both ways.
> 
> It is my experience that there is no career, even when you're the greatest actor of all time, that is worth sacrificing family for.
> 
> And despite what boomers with 4 failed marriages acting like somehow how it's inherently supposed to be that way will tell you: 99.9% of people on this Earth will be a lot happier when they have a wife and kids than they will be slaving at away at whatever job. OP is obviously realizing that is the case.
> 
> and composers do slave away and then for some bizarre reason, wear their abuse like a badge of honor...
> 
> What most people are actually looking for when they want to become a professional musician or any other job in the arts is to do something that _means_ something. To create something that is good and will live beyond its creator.
> 
> Because modernity has robbed the world of all beauty and purpose. Going to work 9 - 5 in an office all day so some suit can buy another Ferrari, flipping carcinogenic fast food burgers, or working retail day after day just so that people can consooooom the latest plastic toys is just utterly meaningless and is increasingly unable to provide for a single person, never mind a family.
> 
> I'd urge you to consider that film and game composing are actually tied into this consumerist insanity as well. Your music doesn't actually mean more or have greater value just because it was made or attached to what is, at the end of the day, a consumer product.
> 
> It was the above realizations that made me realize it didn't really matter if I became a career composer or not.
> 
> Instead, I decided to become rich, hit it big in on the screen and have a lot of kids. Life is much better now.



So much wisdom, man! 

I had a big ol Farkle Friday where I talked about that exact idea, but I'm an nobody, hehehe. 

At the end of the day, I decided not to go "super Hollywood" film composer (Yes, I decided that), because I wanted to be there when my daughter came home from school, I wanted to be cooking for my family 4x a week, I wanted to be doing artistic things (reading, walking the dogs, training in martial arts) every day.

Did my career get hit? Sure. I'm not scoring an NBC show. But, I'm doing mobile games, and direct-to-vid films, and my baby girl gets to have me write her themes for her DnD campaigns. Life is good. And we still have a roof over our heads.

And, BTW, Matt.... GREAT fight scene in the Bourne Identity in the apartment. Your fight choreographer knows what he's doing. 

Mike


----------



## Aceituna

Rctec said:


> ”.... The Pleasure of writing Music”. Now, THAT’s what it’s all about. Forget The business (as Heitor Pereira was told on his first studio movie: “it’s called ShowBusiness, not ShowFriends...). Forget words like”business”, career, Hollywood. Write your music because you’d suffocate if you can’t. Yes, go to school - but that could mean so many things: hanging out with great musicians, painters, poets, writers - and yes, Film makers.
> if you really want to know how to get in, hang with editors. They are forever looking for a piece that makes their cut work.
> But the only guarantee you have, is - roll up your sleeves and put one little note in front of the next. And Love the process. Write to make yourself smile. Write every day. Just one piece for your self. Stay in training. And love Music for Music’s sake. It’s not a business. It’s ART. If you aspire to anything less, you’ll never work with a good film-maker...
> 
> and... get Paid for your Art!



Wow, thousand times wow.....


----------



## Andrajas

Hey everyone again, I'm so glad to see so many responses with amazing advices. This is what makes this community awesome.

To update a little again: I now got a job as an fitter/assembler of vehicles and getting the necessary education and training to do the job. The pay is really good so money won't be an issue. I don't know I long I will have this job (is sort of uncertain, hence the really good pay) but at least 6 months.

As I've never been in this situation before (having a full time job not music related) I need to find a way to still write music. I do have some payed music work coming up as well (production/trailer music), gonna be interesting to see how I balance everything. But I'm just glad that I'm able to bring in some good money, and save up.

The grind continues!


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## musicbyjoao

Thank you for the update! That seems good!
Just keep writing at night whenever you can. But don't miss out on any important events (birthdays, meetings with friends) if you don't have an important set deadline right away.
Best of luck!!


----------



## Sopris

Andrajas said:


> Hey everyone again, I'm so glad to see so many responses with amazing advices. This is what makes this community awesome.
> 
> To update a little again: I now got a job as an fitter/assembler of vehicles and getting the necessary education and training to do the job. The pay is really good so money won't be an issue. I don't know I long I will have this job (is sort of uncertain, hence the really good pay) but at least 6 months.
> 
> As I've never been in this situation before (having a full time job not music related) I need to find a way to still write music. I do have some payed music work coming up as well (production/trailer music), gonna be interesting to see how I balance everything. But I'm just glad that I'm able to bring in some good money, and save up.
> 
> The grind continues!


Congrats on the job! I feel that any experience is good experience and learning something new does wonders for your mind and ultimately will feed back into your creativity. Onward!


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## Navid Lancaster

Rctec said:


> ”.... The Pleasure of writing Music”. Now, THAT’s what it’s all about. Forget The business (as Heitor Pereira was told on his first studio movie: “it’s called ShowBusiness, not ShowFriends...). Forget words like”business”, career, Hollywood. Write your music because you’d suffocate if you can’t. Yes, go to school - but that could mean so many things: hanging out with great musicians, painters, poets, writers - and yes, Film makers.
> if you really want to know how to get in, hang with editors. They are forever looking for a piece that makes their cut work.
> But the only guarantee you have, is - roll up your sleeves and put one little note in front of the next. And Love the process. Write to make yourself smile. Write every day. Just one piece for your self. Stay in training. And love Music for Music’s sake. It’s not a business. It’s ART. If you aspire to anything less, you’ll never work with a good film-maker...
> 
> and... get Paid for your Art!



Facts. ALL FACTS!!


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## JonS

Navid Lancaster said:


> Facts. ALL FACTS!!


First I have to roll my eyes as I feel like too many people are spewing Used Car Salesman pitch BS around and the miasma is only getting worse.

IMHO: This is an incredibly difficult business to succeed in. Being passionate and sincere as an artist, which I think is a given, has nothing to do with success, so just realize that even if an artist completely commits everything for their art, success may never follow and will most likely never happen. If the world was filled with Da Vinci's genius, as it always has been, only one person or maybe a few people get to wear that costume not millions of talented people. So much of success is about luck, being in the right place at the right time, meeting the right people, and then its just the momentum of the sales and marketing machine bragging about these people so everyone gets more successful.

Look at how many talented people music schools crank out every year who aspire to be film and tv composers and how almost all of them will never succeed as film and tv composers. This is true for writers, painters, sculptors, directors, dancers, producers and many other professions. Hollywood makes about 1100 films and tv shows a year (pre-pandemic level), and the same top directors and producers work with the same composers project after project, so the business simply has almost no room to accommodate that much new talent. Each year there is a bigger inventory of untapped talent that wants to be that next composer, but the industry is not looking for new composers while more and more people want to be one. Every blue moon a new composer gets to enter the fray and build a solid career, but that is the exception not the norm.

When one is young its easy to think you have the world at your feet as hope reigns, but as one gets older you see how much tragedy fills the world, how fragile and fleeting life is, and how there are only a very few super lucky people who succeed at the level so many aspire for. Cream does not rise to the top most of the time, unless of course you are John Williams. And, even as brilliant as John Williams is, IMHO the most brilliant and he is my favorite film composer too, I realize IMHO that he is not Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Strauss, Holst, Mahler, and others who are all true artists. As a film composer, IMHO John Williams is the best of the best, Jerry Goldsmith was genius too. However, there are so many hacks in every industry that achieve enormous success as well. It's way too simpleton & convenient after one has been lucky enough to succeed, especially without first enduring decades of enormous sacrifice, tragedy and struggle, to tell others how easy it is, particularly when so few will ever be able to accomplish that feat. Unless one cannot fathom any other pursuit but music, I strongly recommend people not pursue being a film and tv composer as a full time career path as the odds of succeeding are so slim to none and the kind of luck one needs to succeed is in no one's control. I am being realistic so others don't assume that all the hard work, determination and passion in the world is enough to gain success, it's not. There's a reason for expressions like starving artist and struggling artist, as the world has always been filled up with these kinds of artists much more so than the commercially successful artist.

It's understandable for any composer to think their music is art. On the other hand, talk to a film critic or music critic and I doubt they acknowledge the innovation or artistry in the vast majority of film scores, which are much more pedestrian, predictable, and homogenized than composers care to admit. A filmmakers excitement about their work, let alone from their salesmen agent and/or manager, is hardly an objective assessment of anything. Once one gets lucky enough to succeed, so much of life is then about sales and marketing, remember that. Some of the most successful are the biggest braggarts, so no matter how much they say its all about the art, which is just a sales pitch anyway, their complex sales and marketing operations make it all about the money and brag endlessly about awards and box office grosses, which has nothing to do with being a pure artist. Don't believe the hype so quickly, the Wizard of Oz was just some guy behind a curtain pulling levers


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## telecode101

....


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## Jeremy Spencer

JonS said:


> So much of success is about luck, being in the right place at the right time, meeting the right people, and then its just the momentum of the sales and marketing machine bragging about these people so everyone gets more successful.



This!

Talent is such a small factor in the success. I think the real key is to constantly pursue the dream, while at the same time “adjusting” that dream accordingly; while maintaining an alternate, real-world career (the alternate career part is crucial IMO). 

I can attest that 99% of my most successful composition gigs were a result of “cold calling”, pounding the pavement, and being in the right place at the right time. I’m still pursuing the dream for the past 30 years, and I’m perfectly content with the results.


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## JonS

telecode101 said:


> The arts has always been a competitive place. It's never been easy to make a living from arts but it is possible.It has always been difficult and every time is the right place and right time to try it. I think it has more to do with risk acceptance and risk aversion. How willing are you to accept the risks of trying to make a living from the arts? How willing are you bet on yourself and your creative side? Are you willing to put in the work and effort into it?
> 
> I find Hans Zimmer an interesting example. He was just some no-name nobody synth player in the 80s and he went on to create essentially an independent film music composing house that sort of resembles what music departments used to exist like back in the golden era of Hollywood before all the studios restructured and fired all their in house music staff. No other synth guys did that and you can bet there were a lot more successful, powerful (and maybe even musically mre competent and talented?) synth players in the early 80s than him.


The level of commercial success that Hans has achieved in the film business is remarkable and astounding!! Though Hans did not come from nothing from what I understand about him, I believe his family was very wealthy.

Also, had Hans been in a band that was more than a one hit wonder pop video he would probably have never gone into film composing to begin with or at least for a long time. People in hugely successful bands just milk that their whole career most of the time. Regardless, he’s one of the most successful film composers from a business standpoint ever. Hans and John Williams are the two most financially successful film composers, one a master of technology and the other a classically trained virtuoso pianist.


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## AudioLoco

Bro, wish you the best. 
27 is really young and there is plenty of time to bounce back.
Stay safe


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## mat1

The equivalent of a day job for composers/writers/producers is library music and ad work.. there are worse ways to make a living while you build up to the dream


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## jononotbono

mat1 said:


> The equivalent of a day job for composers/writers/producers is library music and ad work.. there are worse ways to make a living while you build up to the dream



Couldn't agree more. People should go and get a job digging foundations and doing laboring work such as layering concrete. Or work in retail dealing with the general public getting paid barely enough to live working all hours of the day like at McDonalds or Dunkin Donuts. They will soon be longing to sit in front of a DAW and writing any kind of music in comparison. Been there and done that many times! 

Music is a joy and I think people lose sight of that and just think of it as some kind of a grind or a chore or something.


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## Jeremy Spencer

jononotbono said:


> Couldn't agree more. People should go and get a job digging foundations and doing laboring work such as layering concrete. Or work in retail dealing with the general public getting paid barely enough to live working all hours of the day like at McDonalds or Dunkin Donuts. They will soon be longing to sit in front of a DAW and writing any kind of music in comparison. Been there and done that many times!
> 
> Music is a joy and I think people lose sight of that and just think of it as some kind of a grind or a chore or something.



But who says a non-musical job needs to be manual labor or McDonald's? My day job is in the trades, earning well over 100K per year with wonderful benefits and a healthy pension. I still write music professionally on the side, and have done so for years. The upside is that I never lose sleep if there's no gigs for a certain stretch of time, and there's no loss of income....ever.


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## jononotbono

Jeremy Spencer said:


> But who says a non-musical job needs to be manual labor or McDonald's? My day job is in the trades, earning well over 100K per year with wonderful benefits and a healthy pension. I still write music professionally on the side, and have done so for years. The upside is that I never lose sleep if there's no gigs for a certain stretch of time, and there's no loss of income....ever.



Im just saying there are plenty of available jobs that cause people massive amounts of depression, that pay very little and require many hours just to pay the bills. I know plenty of people that dream of earning £50k a year let alone £100k a year.I would love to earn that kind of money. Who wouldn’t. Congrats man!

Anyway, each to their own with what they want to do but people making out that doing any kind of music work and actually getting paid for it is like some kind of chore is madness to me.


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## mat1

Jeremy Spencer said:


> My day job is in the trades, earning well over 100K per year with wonderful benefits and a healthy pension. I still write music professionally on the side, and have done so for years. The upside is that I never lose sleep if there's no gigs for a certain stretch of time, and there's no loss of income....ever.



What's good about having an unrelated job is that it will never ruin music for you. Good for you!

For the OP this is something he is already qualified for and with enough work could give him the financial backing he needs.


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## jononotbono

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Sometimes, the day job can be a positive influence, in instances where you need that extra SAUCE.



Brilliant. And a fine example of what most of us that are determined to get out of the minimum wage trap and do anything it takes to eventually make a living with music.

Wonder what kind of sauce that is? Could be the secret sauce everyone is looking for! It’s probably one of the guys from Daft Punk without his helmet on. 😂


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## Varishnipu

jononotbono said:


> Im just saying there are plenty of available jobs that cause people massive amounts of depression, that pay very little and require many hours just to pay the bills. I know plenty of people that dream of earning £50k a year let alone £100k a year.I would love to earn that kind of money. Who wouldn’t. Congrats man!
> 
> Anyway, each to their own with what they want to do but people making out that doing any kind of music work and actually getting paid for it is like some kind of chore is madness to me.



I earn over €50k a year. Too many lazy musicians don’t know how to work.


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## jononotbono

Varishnipu said:


> I earn over €50k a year. Too many lazy musicians don’t know how to work.



I’m nowhere near that and I have had about 20 days off in 16 months. Congrats? 😂


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## vitocorleone123

@ The OP: Working hard takes time and energy and can leave little left over. I've been there. What I didn't have was an iPhone (or iPad). If you can, at least in your locker or something for a break, get an iOS device - doesn't have to be brand new - and use it to make music. You can make all sorts of music (even sampled orchestral via the Korg Module) on an iPhone, and there's scoring apps on an iPad. This keeps the music in reach and in your proximity. Of course a sketch pad or even napkin can work in a pinch.

I'm not a professional or aspiring musician and can only relate because I've been in in a creative field for 25 years (UX Design) - but not in the arts. What's fascinating in reading what Mr Zimmer wrote earlier in this thread is that it very much parallels the field I'm in. I suspect there's a kernel of truth in there that applies across creative endeavors tied to making money, regardless the field. Extremely interesting topic. And, yeah, who you know has as much to do with getting a job as what you know... well, really, more to do with it.

Finally, all I can do is echo what others have said: the grass is just grass. Forget about the color. There's no grass is greener on the other side bs. As I mentioned, I'm a creative in tech. I've never had the same job for more than 5 years, and these are all "full time" jobs, not contracts. Sure, it pays well as long as there's a job, but there's no security over here on this side of the fence, either. The only choice I truly regret was having stopped making music from about 2000 - 2015.

And, to bring things full circle in my comment, one of the key enablers of me getting back to music was Korg Gadget on my iPhone. I was sitting in an airport waiting to pick up my daughter from a sport team trip, came across the app, installed the demo, and.... I'm back in it. A passionate hobbyist with plenty of software and hardware tools to use. And much happier for it! I've even managed to create a brief music intro used for a bunch of educational videos the company is releasing to the public. There was a need, and I stepped up to work and not lose the opportunity - otherwise, they'd have just found something generic online to use rather than something generic I made. 

Good luck. It's not easy out there.


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## Jeremy Spencer

jononotbono said:


> Anyway, each to their own with what they want to do but people making out that doing any kind of music work and actually getting paid for it is like some kind of chore is madness to me.



Yes, I understand your point, and I'm glad you are doing well with music as a career. Me personally though, I did a LOT of musical work and got paid for it years ago...but it wasn't anywhere near what I should have been earning (which is typically the case for an artist). As a result, it was no longer enjoyable and I had enough of the struggling; like barely making rent, etc. Luckily, I was still relatively young, and that's when I decided to get something more reliable in terms of a stable career. But who knows? I may still hit the musical jackpot one day and quit my day job. 

BTW, I wish I was earning £100k per year! I think the Canadian dollar is about half of that


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## telecode101

...


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## toomanynotes

Rctec said:


> Look, I always say that the First lesson is to figure out where the door is and which bell to ring.


Now let me tell you all what happens when someone actually does that... I'm 49 now, no kids (yipee!) but still no break. Nothing is going to stop me writing music though, the journey I believe is more impressive than what lies at the end of the rainbow. That is my belief, that's what makes it fascinating for me.

Now here's something funny...So in London a few good yrs ago I found the door and was mingling with some people, I won't mention names...but I can tell you Cameron Diaz was around discussing a new film with an established director.
Through a related third party, I asked if they could pull a couple of strings so to speak. Create a tiny little puddle to wet my very modest beak...(For any film for that matter)...especially now I was in a important circle and was liked. I had pressed that door bell!!! All those years of waiting for a break...I got lucky!
So I asked Third party for the result...

Third Party: Hey 'Toomanynotes' I spoke to the ole man..I Vouched for you...and said you're great and will compose for 50% less!

Old Man: "Yeah that's great but the trouble is, the guys in suits will reply something in the lines of "Really?! That's wonderful! But errr..what's wrong with Hans Zimmer???" The End.
I mean who can argue with that?? haha.


Another 10yrs later, I'm still shovelling the dung..but now my appreciation of music speaks to me through concert composition, which I really enjoy and satisfies me. I consider myself very lucky not to feel butt-hurt about not succeeding. I will decide when I stop, not by some useless painful emotion. Art is a curse you're stuck with. Embrace it, why fight it? The journey has been terrific, but not for the faint-hearted!
So to the original poster, enjoy the musical rollercoaster ride, but when your train loses momentum, twists n turns, so will your passion.

Kind Regards,
Toomanynotes.


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## JonS

telecode101 said:


> FWIW.. a lot of people who work in the arts get depression. even ones who have what you consider is your "dream job". you are 100% of the time on the recieving end of a client dominant work relationship where the clients can do and say whatever they like. you need to be neutral to having people shit all over your work and discard it at a moments notice.
> 
> its best to charge through the roof. people tend to believe they get what they pay for. if they pay a lot for it, they value it a lot more. they might shit all over it a little less.


I agree it is way better to charge more than less, but getting work is very difficult unless one is completely lucky.


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## vitocorleone123

JonS said:


> I agree it is way better to charge more than less, but getting work is very difficult unless one is completely lucky.



As mentioned, I'm not in the arts, but as a UX Designer, what telecode101 said is still 101% true. There's a truism that "everyone is a designer" that makes the role a lot f-ing harder than it really should be. Because, honestly, hardly anyone is actually a designer! But you can't tell that to a VP (or even CEO) that can have you out on the street in no-time flat... you have to placate and make them feel heard and understood. And generally do whatever the hell they want you to, regardless of the customer needs or issues.

Again, being a creative professional in perhaps any field has a lot of similarities.


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## JonS

toomanynotes said:


> Now let me tell you all what happens when someone actually does that... I'm 49 now, no kids (yipee!) but still no break. Nothing is going to stop me writing music though, the journey I believe is more impressive than what lies at the end of the rainbow. That is my belief, that's what makes it fascinating for me.
> 
> Now here's something funny...So in London a few good yrs ago I found the door and was mingling with some people, I won't mention names...but I can tell you Cameron Diaz was around discussing a new film with an established director.
> Through a related third party, I asked if they could pull a couple of strings so to speak. Create a tiny little puddle to wet my very modest beak...(For any film for that matter)...especially now I was in a important circle and was liked. I had pressed that door bell!!! All those years of waiting for a break...I got lucky!
> So I asked Third party for the result...
> 
> Third Party: Hey 'Toomanynotes' I spoke to the ole man..I Vouched for you...and said you're great and will compose for 50% less!
> 
> Old Man: "Yeah that's great but the trouble is, the guys in suits will reply something in the lines of "Really?! That's wonderful! But errr..what's wrong with Hans Zimmer???" The End.
> I mean who can argue with that?? haha.
> 
> 
> Another 10yrs later, I'm still shovelling the dung..but now my appreciation of music speaks to me through concert composition, which I really enjoy and satisfies me. I consider myself very lucky not to feel butt-hurt about not succeeding. I will decide when I stop, not by some useless painful emotion. Art is a curse you're stuck with. Embrace it, why fight it? The journey has been terrific, but not for the faint-hearted!
> So to the original poster, enjoy the musical rollercoaster ride, but when your train loses momentum, twists n turns, so will your passion.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Toomanynotes.


Just remember, there's only one Hans Zimmer, so he can't do every movie. And, even if he is supervising his team, none of them are Hans Zimmer either. No one can just hire John Williams whenever they want since John only works on so many films a year and simply can't take on more than that no matter how much money is offered. Hiring Hans' team is never the same thing as hiring Hans or any top composer's apprentice! So the next time anyone says I can just hire a top composer, they are assuming he will be available as many of these guys are booked out for years in advance and will only take on so much work each year. Also, Hans and John Williams I believe get part of the adjusted gross, which very few composers get, so producers pay a big price to hire these guys than there huge creative fees.


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## toomanynotes

JonS said:


> Just remember, there's only one Hans Zimmer, so he can't do every movie. And, even if he is supervising his team, none of them are Hans Zimmer either. No one can just hire John Williams whenever they want since John only works on so many films a year and simply can't take on more than that no matter how much money is offered. Hiring Hans' team is never the same thing as hiring Hans or any top composer's apprentice! So the next time anyone says I can just hire a top composer, they are assuming he will be available as many of these guys are booked out for years in advance and will only take on so much work each year. Also, Hans and John Williams I believe get part of the adjusted gross, which very few composers get, so producers pay a big price to hire these guys than there huge creative fees.


that’s so true, but I think in this case it’s something on the lines of, Mr Zimmer‘s got a track record...there’s alot of money at stake on this picture. Let’s not take any risks and break any newcomers. It’s interesting that though, imo the fact that many blockbuster pictures have generic wall to wall music anyway...it’s hardly detrimental to the outcome..it’s not like we cld do any worse, with all due respect to other composers, but it is what it is.


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## JonS

toomanynotes said:


> that’s so true, but I think in this case it’s something on the lines of, Mr Zimmer‘s got a track record...there’s alot of money at stake on this picture. Let’s not take any risks and break any newcomers. It’s interesting that though, imo the fact that many blockbuster pictures have gerneric wall to wall music anyway...it’s hardly detrimental to the outcome..it’s not like we cld do any worse, with all due respect to other composers, but it is what it is.


I agree with you 100%!


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## jaketanner

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?


With a masters you could teach online...from anywhere. I'd look into that in the meantime.


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## HarmonyCore

@Andrajas, sorry to hear about your bad experience now. But allow me to ask what did you do in those 5 yrs of master degree? only assisted established composers? assisted them in what exactly? You didn't explain much of what else did you do. I mean you could have written over 30 albums at this long time while assisting composers and studying. I heard many different stories about composers who wrote tracks when they were teenagers even before their official music education. Hans Zimmer was kicked out of many schools and he had no formal musical education at all, read his wiki. With the rise of sample libraries and online music libraries, what is stopping you from writing soundtracks in your home studio and submit them? 

Look! I just want to understand because I am very curious about your situation now and this is by no means not a blame message but rather an eye opening message. Competition is stiff? Yes. But I see ordinary composers had their tracks accepted by music libraries. Of course, you have to be rejected for a while first but then it will click. Come on man! you had a long time. What did you do in those 5 yrs exactly? Please answer me, I need to know


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## telecode101

....


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## Andrajas

HarmonyCore said:


> @Andrajas, sorry to hear about your bad experience now. But allow me to ask what did you do in those 5 yrs of master degree? only assisted established composers? assisted them in what exactly? You didn't explain much of what else did you do. I mean you could have written over 30 albums at this long time while assisting composers and studying. I heard many different stories about composers who wrote tracks when they were teenagers even before their official music education. Hans Zimmer was kicked out of many schools and he had no formal musical education at all, read his wiki. With the rise of sample libraries and online music libraries, what is stopping you from writing soundtracks in your home studio and submit them?
> 
> Look! I just want to understand because I am very curious about your situation now and this is by no means not a blame message but rather an eye opening message. Competition is stiff? Yes. But I see ordinary composers had their tracks accepted by music libraries. Of course, you have to be rejected for a while first but then it will click. Come on man! you had a long time. What did you do in those 5 yrs exactly? Please answer me, I need to know


Sorry but not sure what you are suggesting. Of course I wrote music constantly beside assisting and studying. I had my best success in production/trailer music and have scoring work under my belt.
When assisting I did assisting work, print stems, arranging, organize cues etc. 

Of those 5 years, 3 years was a bachelor degree where my level was far from being professional. I have been doing this for a total of 7 years. It was then I started writing music really.
Could I have done more? Probably. But I have not been lazy ..


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## JonS

telecode101 said:


> FWIW.. there are a lot other music related jobs out there than composer. you may also want to explore what music editors do. just go onto imdb.com and lookup your fav movie and look up the sound department section. if it's a tent pole film, i will bet you there is at least 20 to 30 people listed. lots of other things you can pursue.


Danny Elfman is a perfect example of how much luck is required to make it as a film composer. He never saw himself being in music at all when he was younger. His older brother randomly pulled Danny into his jazz troupe even though Danny had no musical training nor interest in being in a band. He never sought out to be a film composer and had a director pursue him to compose his first major project. Danny never believed the studio would accept his score for Pee-Wee’s Big Adventure and yet they loved it. Despite the fact that he became focused on his band and not his film composer career, more and more films were offered to him. Danny never studied music and to this day is not a good piano player. He’s a perfect example of just how much luck one needs to succeed in this business and how no matter how trained or talented or hard one works to pursue this career, it’s luck that primarily determines your Fate not anything else as there are too many super talented hard working composers who will never make it and never even be given a chance to make it. My advice to anyone who wants to be a film and tv composer is to only pursue this career if you can live with the idea that you will most likely never succeed.


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## telecode101

........


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## JonS

telecode101 said:


> I guy I know who is a music editor on some fairly well knows film came into it from playing trumpet in band competitions. I think composers are far and between but there are lots of other jobs that do music. not everyone can be hans zimmer.


For some people, getting any related gig like music editor or mixing engineer is extremely cool. Personally, if I am not composing music I’d rather not be in the industry in any other capacity. And, for others who may have a similar mindset as I do most of them will never make it simply because getting the chance to compose for film and tv is rarely given to anyone new unless you are already a successful pop/techno/rock star (Trent Reznor, Junkie XL, Danny Elfman, Hans Zimmer, Mark Mothersbaugh) or music director for a successful pop star 💫 (Marc Shaiman, James Newton Howard) or your dad was a famous film composer 🎼 (David Newman, Thomas Newman, Randy Newman) or your best friend from high school/college becomes a top director/producer and hires you (Howard Shore, Justin Hurwitz) or you are lucky enough to be one of Hans Zimmer’s assistants (John Powell, Harry Gregson-Williams, Heitor Pereira, Henry Jackman, Steve Jablonsky, Lorne Balfe, http://www.trevormorris.com/bio-reg.html (Trevor Morris), Ramin Djawadi, Jeff Rona, http://mancinamusic.com/home.php (Mark Mancina), Atli Örvarsson, Geoff Zanelli, http://www.blakeneely.com/ (Blake Neeley), http://www.firedearthmusic.com/zeitgeist-composer-stephen-hilton-his-hollywood-story/ (Stephen Hilton), Tom “Junkie XL” Holkenborg), which is in and of itself fairly impossible to become without tremendous luck. Any way you slice it, luck plays the most important role in becoming successful as a film and tv composer just as it does in many professions and life in general since too many people are hardworking and super talented but will never succeed without massive luck.


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## telecode101

....


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## Ian Dorsch

JohnG said:


> I think it's incumbent on us to search our sincere feelings to see what that brings about musically. The fastest way to rubbish is insincerity, either musically or personally. Some of my favourite composers have twee or sappy or sentimental or overly arch styles now and then -- it's just being a person and responding, sometimes, with what sounds like a cliché -- such moments may, nevertheless, be quite sincere (even if later they can feel a bit embarrassing).



Man, I just love this, as both a musician and a music educator. This is really the key, isn't it?


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## gives19

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?





Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?



27 and you are worried? Man, It took me many years to get going. Everyone today seems to have an urgency about success or what they have expectations for it. I have a great life and it started in LA back in my 20's dong sessions as a trumpet player, but first I did a ton of straight jobs. I have many composer friends who had horrible beginnings, but kept at it. One of the best things I relay to young artists I tell when speaking to them either 1 on 1 or in a forum was from a fantastic teacher I have privately on trumpet. "There is a lot of room at the top and a lot of room at the bottom, but not much room in the middle and that is where everybody is." He also said, "If you are thinking about another carrier or what others have to fall back on or whatever, you have already made up your mind that you will not succeed.", something along those lines.. I just kept at it.. Took me many places exploring many things. Nights in a gas station work, delivering phone books, to getting my first gigs, that led to better things. Networking in early technologies with music and electronics with my horn that led me to meed a lot of people. Then I got some breaks and also did a fair amount of advertising in the 90's that paid the bills and got me a house and a studio etc. Things just happen, when they happen, but not without a lot of work. I do have degrees, but mostly learned my craft by doing. When I was in school, there were no computers or film scoring classes. I learned my craft by working hard and new I had a gift and I guess people like what I do and also like to work with me. I also learned how to run audio post sessions in my room, and always believe that is important and should not be time wasted buy not learning that craft too! So much of what I hear now is pretty similar and not really original. Everyone is just trying to emulate what is already out there. Most of the people working are working because the producers like them and also they are giving them something they have not heard. It is good that you learned your craft and that should not be discounted. I would follow some of the earlier guidance of networking, doing work for people that need things done like an INDY film. Some folks are needing just a good mix the first time and sound design. Being co-operative and a yes and goes a long way to getting more work. Just finished a big project and the producer was on the line and told me "Oh, I have to get off from this call with you, I am getting a call back with someone who I am referring you another job." It's all about relationships. The music business IS a business and some of the time it has very little to do with music-. Best of luck to you!


----------



## JonS

telecode101 said:


> I think you need to frame and define what success means to you.


That's simple. Success as a film and tv composer means you are getting hired enough year in and year out over a 20 year career to make a steady living to support a family, own a house and car, and being able to afford to send your kids to college one day. It's not complicated at all. I'm not talking about making millions every year, but making a steady living being a full time composer for film and tv so one can lead a fruitful life, have a family and put away enough to enjoy a lovely retirement one day. For most composers this reality will never happen.


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## telecode101

....


----------



## JonS

telecode101 said:


> FWIW... most of the people I know who work in film up here don't raise families or kids. They are single and live in the city. It's not the kind of life where your hours are 9 to 5. It's a little like advertising but a lot weirder hours and much more geographically concentrated in a few locations.


The hours are definitely much more consistently intense than many other industries. When working on a project I never work less than 16 hours a day and usually am working 7 days a week. But, even with such long hours, if one is making enough per project and getting hired regularly on productions each year one should be able to make a solid living. This is why many top composers will only work on 1-2 films a year as they get older because they want a life. There are plenty of established film and tv composers who are married with children even though that’s not the bunch you know. I never implied that this was an easy profession to pursue or offered the normalcy of a 9-5 gig, it’s not.

However, if there was a union protecting composers, more people could make a steadier living since there is a race to the bottom mentality among too many producers and composers who are too willing to work for nothing or practically nothing.

I do not understand why the PROs (ASCAP BMI SESAC) are allowing certain streaming distributors and tv networks to stop paying performance royalties and allowing music streaming services to pay so little royalty per play/stream. The minimum royalty per stream/play should be a penny or more not a tenth or hundredth of a penny, that’s absurd.


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## AlHertz1910

Just my two cents; what I figured was the best path was to find a practical career in music (I became a public school music teacher). You need a practical career starting out as a financial safety net, the risk of going head first into the creative gig field is too great and the odds are againt you- for making a financial living anyway. The key imho is to find a career that still involves your passion for music and/or software based composition. For me that meant either becoming a music teacher or some sort of software engineer. If you take these paths your still involved in some way with your passion and the flame can still be around. You can't take a career that has nothing to do with music. Unfortunately the truth is - what they dont teach you in school/college- is that your career basically becomes your life, or at least a huge chunk of it. If you go into a career that has nothing to do with music or computers then your energy and time will be deovted to something entirely unrelated and you will waste years. With a practical career in one of these fields at least your brain is tuned into the same interests and it'll be easier to find the energy to follow your true passion of composition on the side.


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## Arbee

JonS said:


> ...Any way you slice it, luck plays the most important role in becoming successful as a film and tv composer just as it does in many professions and life in general...


Luck no doubt plays some part in a "stellar" career vs an ordinary one, but I disagree completely that it's the most important part. Being ready for luck and up to the challenge when it happens I believe is the key. This quote sums it up perfectly for me and reflects my life experience.

"The harder I work, the luckier I get." - _Samuel Goldwyn_


----------



## JonS

Arbee said:


> Luck no doubt plays some part in a "stellar" career vs an ordinary one, but I disagree completely that it's the most important part. Being ready for luck and up to the challenge when it happens I believe is the key. This quote sums it up perfectly for me and reflects my life experience.
> 
> "The harder I work, the luckier I get." - _Samuel Goldwyn_


Quoting someone who was very successful means nothing. Too many people are incredibly brilliant, persistent, constantly trying to improve their craft, hard working and super talented who will never succeed. You don’t know what you are talking about. The successful don’t realize how lucky they are more often than not, which is all about their egos.

Talk to any major Broadway producer and they will tell you that luck plays the most significant role in determining success of a show as 80% of shows fail even though established A-list talent are behind them. There are plenty of hacks in Hollywood let alone every industry that are not particularly exceptional or talented and are very successful. Get more life experience and you will realize how what you are saying is not true.

Certain careers are mostly about hard work and developing skill sets where luck plays a less prominent role ie. surgeon, orchestra musician, professional athlete, martial arts, boxing. But even a great athlete’s career can end immediately if they are unlucky and get a career ending injury. I have known people whose entire families were wiped out in the Holocaust simply because they weren’t lucky enough to survive. Luck is more at play in life in general than people realize. There is too much tragedy in the world that can befall any of us in a blink of an eye where only luck stands in the way of doom.

The hardest working & unluckiest people in the world work in slaughterhouses, on agricultural fields, and clean subway bathrooms while the luckiest are ruthless billionaires who sit back like fat cats doing almost nothing to collect dividends and interest from stocks and bonds and paying no taxes shielded by a fleet of Ivy League corporate tax attorneys and bribed politicians in their pockets giving them and their companies tax breaks, tax shelters and fat government contracts that brilliant hardworking people will never get. Life is not fair as most people are not lucky. Look at the high failure rate for new restaurants, 60% fail in the first year and 80% fail within 5 years.

Film and tv composers need tremendous luck the most to get the chance(s) to be able to be asked to compose for a major project(s) or they will never have a career in the first place, so it won’t matter how prepared one is if the opportunity never arises to display one’s talent and hard work.

Getting a record deal these days has much less to do with talent and more often than not is simply about having huge social media followings, which many on social media have not because of talent. Going viral is not in anyone’s control. The Kardashians have no talent along with so many others on social media, yet they got extremely lucky to become rich and infamous because of the double homicide of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, who were both terribly unlucky to get murdered. Personally I think it’s disgusting they would even try to profit off of the murder of two people, they should all be ashamed of themselves.

Regardless, one has to be extremely lucky in life that you don’t die of terminal cancer at any age, you don’t get shot and killed in a random carjacking or stray bullet, you don’t get murdered by a drunk driver or during a home invasion, and other fatal events that happen to hardworking, smart, innocent people every single day. When you get more life experience and watch children die of terminal illness you realize quickly how much life is about luck because that could have been you and not them that died young for no reason. Think about all the countless soldiers who died in Vietnam, WWI and WWII where only luck separated those who survived from those who didn’t. 90% of all indigenous people were killed by violence or disease from European colonization, making almost 55 million people exceptionally unlucky. Or how about the 18.3% of women in the USA alone who have been raped or the additional 16.1% who faced coercion, all because they were not the lucky ones who didn’t experience those events 🍀 Life in general requires a lot of luck that tragedy doesn’t engulf you.

There are so many music editors, music teachers, music professors, music engineers, and others who could easily be successful film and tv composers if they ever got the opportunity to show off their talent but most of them will never succeed as film and tv composers as they won’t get lucky like that. It’s a given one has to be incredibly persistent, hard working, talented and driven, but none of it matters if you don’t get incredibly lucky.

“People say they don’t believe in luck: luck is the reason the dinosaurs got wiped out and why human beings became the new dominant species on this planet.” – _Stewart Stafford_


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## Arbee

JonS said:


> ....You don’t know what you are talking about....Get more life experience and you will realize how what you are saying is not true....



Really? I don't dispute the role of luck at all, good things happen to bad people and bad things very tragically happen to good, hard working people. Every day.

However, communication skills, self awareness, environmental analysis, empathy and just generally being nice to people all play a part when opportunity comes along and someone decides who they're going to give some "luck" to. Some very talented and dedicated folk get unlucky not because of their talent or craft, but because they lose out to folk who possess, or have developed, those "soft skills".


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## telecode101

....


----------



## Cathbad

telecode101 said:


> I think I read a quote somewhere that success was 90% based on doing the hard work in preparing yourself for luck. (or something to that effect).



Was it, "Chance favours the prepared mind?" (Louis Pasteur)


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## Matt Donovan

styledelk said:


> So what is film composing, outside of the music, if not Project Management?
> 
> Maybe, at least for now, you should look at a few bright sides:
> 1. You have two degrees, and these go a long way.
> 2. You developed skills in project management that can be immediately applicable to building any sort of product or process.
> 
> Perhaps you apply that to getting a project management certificate, or heck, just read up on it as a profession, and see if you can cast your resume in that light towards some jobs in that area-- at least for the time being.



You make a valid point - Film Composition requires project management skills. Project Managers are always in demand. The job is flexible and one can earn a decent living income. It beats working in a low paid, soul destroying dead-end job that leaves you little time to work on your music. For anyone interested, a good place to start is the Project Management Institute's website: www.pmi.org - There is lots of free useful info and a free Introduction to Project Management course. 

Keep working on your music and making contacts. Good things will come.


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## Daryl

Whilst there is luck involved in becoming successful, there is no substitute for hard work and actually having some skills. Relying on luck is not a good way to go, and if you're employable, you'll have a much better chance of being successful. I'm pretty clear where I was in the right place at the right time, purely by luck. The success I've had since has very little to do with luck.


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## JonS

telecode101 said:


> Luck and/or bad luck always played a large role in creative arts. No point worrying about it too much. That is something you can't do anything about more or less. Just work on your craft and work on figuring out what you can bring to the table that others can't. That's much harder to do as a lot of people are very talented. I think I read a quote somewhere that success was 90% based on doing the hard work in preparing yourself for luck. (or something to that effect).


Since that kind of major luck is not in anyone's control it's hardly anything to worry about or focus on. I am just trying to make people aware that no matter how talented they are or how hard they try or how much they improve their craft, none of it necessarily will bring them big time success, that's all, because there is a belief that cream rises to the top on this forum, and that's not true at all. Plenty of mediocre talent succeed in this world and there are a ton of super talented hardworking people who will never be given the chance to succeed. All any of us can you is try our best, pursue our dreams and be as prepared as possible if an opportunity presents itself. But, wither one has a positive attitude or believes in self-manifestation or is cautiously optimistic or does not believe they will make it or experience success only when they let go of believing it will ever happen for them, a Fated amount of success, failure and mediocrity will uniquely unfold on each of us whether we like it or not.


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## Jeremy Spencer

JonS said:


> Since that kind of major luck is not in anyone's control it's hardly anything to worry about or focus on. I am just trying to make people aware that no matter how talented they are or how hard they try or how much they improve their craft, none of it necessarily will bring them big time success, that's all, because there is a belief that cream rises to the top on this forum, and that's not true at all. Plenty of mediocre talent succeed in this world and there are a ton of super talented hardworking people who will never be given the chance to succeed. All any of us can you is try our best, pursue our dreams and be as prepared as possible if an opportunity presents itself. But, wither one has a positive attitude or believes in self-manifestation or is cautiously optimistic or does not believe they will make it or experience success only when they let go of believing it will ever happen for them, a Fated amount of success, failure and mediocrity will uniquely unfold on each of us whether we like it or not.



Well said! You can work your ass off, and have all the talent in the world, but that does not equal guaranteed success. All one can do is give it their best shot, persevere, and see what happens.


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## telecode101

...


----------



## JonS

telecode101 said:


> Well. I don't see any mediocre talent anywhere. I see extremely talented people everywhere. Be it in the film scoring, pop, rock, EDM all the way to hip-hop. You may not like certain types of music or genres -- but that is your own tastes and preference in music and entertainment. It has no bearing on how talented the people making it are.


There are absolutely a lot of talented people who succeed in the entertainment industry, my favorite composers are/were all incredibly talented: John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, John Barry, Marvin Hamlisch. But even Marvin Hamlisch composed a bunch of completely forgettable scores, songs and flop musicals as genius as he was. Maurice Jarre was brilliant, just don’t listen to No Way Out, that was a total dud. If you are around long enough and work with enough people you will understand what I am talking about regarding mediocrity in all businesses and a long line of studio hacks that punch the clock for a big paycheck. Success does not automatically go hand and hand with talent, that’s all. It’s not like the most talented are always the ones to succeed and create the best work, life just doesn’t work that way. Tragically, good does not always triumph over evil, true love does not conquer all, and justice does not always prevail. Too many of us are influenced by the delusions of both religion and happy Hollywood endings when we were children as most people do not live happily ever after either ie. most marriages sadly fail and end in divorce too.

For example, some actors have no clue how to act, they simply play the same role over and over again no matter how trained they may be. Seen them in one movie 🍿 🎥 you’ve seen them in all. It’s astounding how many good movies don’t succeed that should have let alone how many bad movies get made every year, some of which are huge successes despite how bad they are and others appropriately fail but still end up on Netflix and Prime as shlop: bad scripts, bad acting, bad casting, bad directing, bad producing, and sometimes even bad composing too. Same can be said for Broadway where sometimes bad shows succeed while great shows fail at the box office. There are plenty of bad composers, songwriters, writers, and directors in Hollywood and Broadway, way too many to list, that crank out junk after junk and despite that they keep getting more and more opportunities. Of course some people still think hanging a toilet 🚽 on a wall is Dadaism genius too.... Feel free to enjoy that as well, I’ll pass 😉


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## Daryl

telecode101 said:


> Well. I don't see any mediocre talent anywhere. I see extremely talented people everywhere. Be it in the film scoring, pop, rock, EDM all the way to hip-hop. You may not like certain types of music or genres -- but that is your own tastes and preference in music and entertainment. It has no bearing on how talented the people making it are.


I se a lot of talented people around too. Most of them have very little in the way of craft or skills though. What's worse, is that they think they don't need to have any. Hence why a lot of them are not successful.


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## telecode101

...


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

telecode101 said:


> It's a bit like me with my Dewalt hammer drill



Better to use a regular drill and bore your holes in wood instead of concrete.


----------



## telecode101

...


----------



## Minsky

Cathbad said:


> Was it, "Chance favours the prepared mind?" (Louis Pasteur)



I heard it as " success is preparation meting opportunity."


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

telecode101 said:


> But at the end of it I always wonder, what was the point to it?



Maybe I'm wrong - they should use hammer drills and make them out of concrete.


----------



## JohnG




----------



## JonS

telecode101 said:


> I still believe the old saying "Work smart, don't work hard." applies today more than ever. Craft and skills in music creation is being undermined by the army of companies that are chasing to make a profit in the creative space. There are a lot of new tools out there and they are constantly getting better and faster. Compared to 20 or 30 years ago when access to those tools was far removed from regular joe blow.
> 
> It's a bit like me with my Dewalt hammer drill competing against a guy that just as a hammer and chisel and may be much stronger physically. I will make that 10" hole in a concrete wall much faster than he can and move on to do other things while he is still chiselling away the next day.


Working smart is a given, but no matter how smart one is most top composers work incredibly long hours per day (16+) 7 days a week when composing for a film or major tv show. If one is lucky enough to get this kind of work it dominates your life till that project is completed.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?



I am sorry to hear about your struggle. However, reading through what you have already accomplished, I want to congratulate you, man! You are 27, got a masters degree already, several assisting jobs in the books and still go out and work a day job to survive? Be proud of your accomplishments! Do you know how many fail and don't even finish a degree? 
I cannot change where you are right now and I cannot give you a solution to your current problems. But I can tell you that worked several different jobs over 20 something years while building up a career in music. I managed to go completely self employed four years ago at the age of 35 and atm make a living composing and performing for several formats. But believe me when I say I lived with little to nothing for parts of my life, while providing for a family. I just kept working and learning and working and learning.

What you've learned in school or in life, no one can take away from you.

Good luck! You will find a way!


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## prodigalson

I got my undergrad in Jazz Composition and moved to NYC to be a jazz composer  Treaded water for quite a while before finding work as a pianist/keyboard player that led to arranging/orchestration work and eventually composing.

I'm not a jazz composer but I can say for sure that the reason I got my "break" was due to experiences and skill sets I gained in college. As my Dad used to always say, "All rivers lead to the same ocean". 

I can say for sure what my "big break" was and the good fortune surrounding it but every job I've had since then has been from relationships without exception.


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## MarcusD

Stop being so hard on yourself!


Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?




I mean this lovingly... Stop your complaining!

When I was 23 I had no degree, no real formal education (self taught everything), lived in a shitty shared house with zero opportunities. I had some experience mixing and writing for local / minor label acts and radio stations but got ripped off, underpaid and treated like a mug constantly. Always short on rent and pissed away what little money was left on crap. Left me never wanting to do that line of work. The only decent opportunity (prior to all that) was being offered a placement at ACM when I was 21 but couldn't afford to move down south.

After I stopped mixing etc... I spent weekends working from 6am to 3am (most of the time) traveling up and down the country playing events with random bands (as a guitarist) and got a job spending the rest of the week grafting in a warehouse shifting boilers, radiators & lawnmowers all day. It was at this point I'd got in a rut and started giving up my ambitions and mentally declined. My health started to show signs of that too. At 25 I had my 1st big surgery on my head and neck (which got me thinking about where things went wrong)

Soon realised for the majority of my life I had been living in ignorance, caused most of my own situations by making poor choices, being too soft or blaming someone else when ANYTHING went wrong. You know, always had an excuse as to why I couldn't do x -y -z... bla ... bla ... bla ... feel sorry for me...go cry in a pillow...

Then after a long hard think, decided it was time to grow some balls and do something about it. Since then, (now 33) everything's got a whole lot better and moving in the direction it should have years ago. Got a house, settled down, making better money, got some self worth. Sure we have to do things on side for extra money sometimes, or things we don't like, but that's life. Just got to keep at it, you'll have more ups and downs. Just take it on the chin, learn from mistakes and be a better you and don't let anyone tell you that you can't (including yourself).

At 27 you've already achieved way more than some of us have, so QUIT moaning about it! You've got everything going for you. Find away to adapt to your situation, work your ass off and you'll get there!


----------



## versko19

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...



I thought I'd chime in as a 26, soon to be 27-year-old myself. I too have had these same thoughts as you do, and what's more, I don't even have a master's in film scoring backing me up. However, I've been fortunate to forge connections with all sorts of people, and my career has seen a gradual, steady incline which I supplement by working in hospitality. All this to be said, at 27, I consider myself to be YOUNG in the composer game. 

You say you feel like you're running out of time, made a bad choice, aren't financially stable; well let's break it down. Just because your friends are getting married and having kids doesn't mean you need to be doing the same thing (unless that's what you want). Getting an education isn't a bad choice, it's just a choice, and now you have a plethora of skills to show for it. Financial stability is still possible, albeit not in this immediate climate, but I think that speaks to a bigger majority now than before. 

All this to say, you're 27. You're young. If you want to be a composer, then hustle, continue pushing through the struggle, maintain realistic expectations of where you want to be, and keep exploring options on how to stay financially stable while you do so. Good luck!!


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## JonS

Arbee said:


> Really? I don't dispute the role of luck at all, good things happen to bad people and bad things very tragically happen to good, hard working people. Every day.
> 
> However, communication skills, self awareness, environmental analysis, empathy and just generally being nice to people all play a part when opportunity comes along and someone decides who they're going to give some "luck" to. Some very talented and dedicated folk get unlucky not because of their talent or craft, but because they lose out to folk who possess, or have developed, those "soft skills".


Soft skills have nothing to do with anything. Nice guys finish last. Being empathetic is great if one wants to be a mom or a therapist or someone who gets constantly taken advantage of and abused by others. I am not saying don't be a kind person in life, I think being nice and caring is a critical trait that I happen to value in life. However, those soft skills have nothing to do with why a person becomes a major composer of film and tv. One has to get incredibly lucky first and foremost. There is no reason to not be a good hearted person in life, but that trait really has nothing to do with why one succeeds as a composer. There are plenty of total assholes in the world who are incredibly successful. I would never tell anyone to be one of them, but being nice really has nothing to do with major success unless you want to be Pope. In my lifetime, I am always being nice, and that trait has never helped me get ahead. It actually puts one at risk of being taken advantage of constantly by everyone else in the world, since so few in the business world are honorable, magnanimous and kind people. I have also come across a lot of phony people in the world who are nice to your face and won't hesitate to backstab you in a heart beat. Be nice to your family but be cautious with the broader world so you don't get fleeced for being a sheep. My advice, especially for very nice people who want to be film and tv composers, is get a very good entertainment attorney to negotiate your deals for you as there are a ton of ruthless producers and studio execs who will have no problem lying to your face, offering you lowball take it or leave it offers for film and tv projects, and could careless how much money you lose working for them or how hard you are working on the production. Paying your dues simply means you won't get paid Hans Zimmer/John Williams money at this time, but you will get paid reasonable creative fees to do your work. Being nice regarding compensation means you work like a slave till you go homeless and they could careless.


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## prodigalson

JonS said:


> Soft skills have nothing to do with anything. Nice guys finish last. Being empathetic is great if one wants to be a mom or a therapist or someone who gets constantly taken advantage of and abused by others.



With respect, this statement makes clear you understand what soft skills are.


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## JonS

prodigalson said:


> With respect, this statement makes clear you understand what soft skills are.


I was responding to what a specific post stated, that's all.


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## Arbee

JonS said:


> Soft skills have nothing to do with anything. Nice guys finish last. Being empathetic is great if one wants to be a mom or a therapist or someone who gets constantly taken advantage of and abused by others. I am not saying don't be a kind person in life, I think being nice and caring is a critical trait that I happen to value in life. However, those soft skills have nothing to do with why a person becomes a major composer of film and tv. One has to get incredibly lucky first and foremost. There is no reason to not be a good hearted person in life, but that trait really has nothing to do with why one succeeds as a composer. There are plenty of total assholes in the world who are incredibly successful. I would never tell anyone to be one of them, but being nice really has nothing to do with major success unless you want to be Pope. In my lifetime, I am always being nice, and that trait has never helped me get ahead. It actually puts one at risk of being taken advantage of constantly by everyone else in the world, since so few in the business world are honorable, magnanimous and kind people. I have also come across a lot of phony people in the world who are nice to your face and won't hesitate to backstab you in a heart beat. Be nice to your family but be cautious with the broader world so you don't get fleeced for being a sheep. My advice, especially for very nice people who want to be film and tv composers, is get a very good entertainment attorney to negotiate your deals for you as there are a ton of ruthless producers and studio execs who will have no problem lying to your face, offering you lowball take it or leave it offers for film and tv projects, and could careless how much money you lose working for them or how hard you are working on the production. Paying your dues simply means you won't get paid Hans Zimmer/John Williams money at this time, but you will get paid reasonable creative fees to do your work. Being nice regarding compensation means you work like a slave till you go homeless and they could careless.


You're really invested in this point of view hey? Not sure how or why you've set your belief system this way, but nothing I say will obviously change it. I get that it can be comforting to think that nice guys finish last, but I know plenty of nice guys who worked hard and finished first or at least near the front, and in a number of fields. I too strongly counsel people on how not to be naive and to be savvy, but claiming that we are powerless to influence our own success strikes as me as rather toxic to be honest, and simply untrue as a broad generalisation.


----------



## JonS

Arbee said:


> You're really invested in this point of view hey? Not sure how or why you've set your belief system this way, but nothing I say will obviously change it. I get that it can be comforting to think that nice guys finish last, but I know plenty of nice guys who worked hard and finished first or at least near the front, and in a number of fields. I too strongly counsel people on how not to be naive and to be savvy, but claiming that we are powerless to influence our own success strikes as me as rather toxic to be honest, and simply untrue as a broad generalisation.


The history of the world is an endless statistic of tragedy, but feel free to pretend to play the role of God and think you can outsmart doom and death. No matter how savvy one is, no one can outsmart Fate. I am a realist after a lot of life experience and being in the biz for over 30 years. I am not saying good hearted people cannot succeed or don't succeed, I was merely quoting a cliche. Each of us is powerless when it comes to some of the most important things in life no matter how hard one tries. No one can evade death or terminal illness, finding the love of your life is not an event that we can control, and no matter how much one tries to improve their craft each of us has to get enormously lucky for major success to unfold in many industries. Some careers are much more about developing skills than getting lucky breaks (ie. surgeon, symphony musician), but being a film and tv composer has much more to do with luck than simply just developing skills or hundreds if not thousands of music grads would become successful as film and tv composers once they graduate year after year and that does not happen at all. If one wants to be the next A-list film composer, most who pursue that path will never succeed without massive luck. I did not say one needs to be ruthless, you obviously did not read what I wrote. I said how much I value being a kind, caring person, and there are plenty of nice people who succeed, but being kind is not the missing or key ingredient in succeeding, that's all. I only associate with nice people, but I have never found that my kindness causes better opportunities to appear or substantially fosters success in my experience, something else that none of us control is at play. I think you are naive.


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## Arbee

JonS said:


> ... I think you are naive.


OK, let's leave it there


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## Tveten

Thanks for an interesting thread! I also live in Sweden and guess I could be example of choosing the safer (non music occupation) path. Started writing music in my teens, still do occasionally. I had three interests (still do), early on I choose to become a teacher (social science and PE). Music was put on hold. The upside is a family, house, I work 80% (as is my wish) with decent salary. Downside is of course some doubt about if it was the right choice (”What ifs”) and absolutely no real time for producing music. Then again, I like teaching, and someone noticed that I could teach some music, so now I do. I also learned to sing quite well and practice while in the car, doing laundry, cooking etc. Keeping some practice at guitar, grabbing some studio gear and software. So when the kids get a bit older, I’m know what I’ll be doing 🙂. It’s hard to remove something you like to do instinctively, but I’m glad and grateful for what I’ve got. And still in it for music in the long run, though I sure won’t end up in LA and probably not professionally in some real sense.
I think you could teach music parttime with your background and build connections, Scoring trailers and such and have a somewhat steady income for a while. Maybe there is middle ground?

Frankly, music business seem to be a horror to me. I met some instrumentalists through teaching at my school (one performing own shows with national music celebrities, one used to world tours and yet another former session singer in London) and not even for them it’s a stable income. It’s a tough game when you can be great, proven it, have connections and still not make a living of it. Guess the best Swede in music business lately got to be the Spotify founders...and Avicii, but that’s another sad story. But every business has some reality and downsides outsiders don’t see, right? As well as good sides.
Anyway, whatever advice you heed, don’t skip sleep as some suggested. I did it working hard, hit the Wall twice. A couple of years since then, still can’t sleep without 💊. I can stare at the ceiling for days, I’m broken 😞 in that way. Nobody should give that advice to anybody...


----------



## JonS

Tveten said:


> Thanks for an interesting thread! I also live in Sweden and guess I could be example of choosing the safer (non music occupation) path. Started writing music in my teens, still do occasionally. I had three interests (still do), early on I choose to become a teacher (social science and PE). Music was put on hold. The upside is a family, house, I work 80% (as is my wish) with decent salary. Downside is of course some doubt about if it was the right choice (”What ifs”) and absolutely no real time for producing music. Then again, I like teaching, and someone noticed that I could teach some music, so now I do. I also learned to sing quite well and practice while in the car, doing laundry, cooking etc. Keeping some practice at guitar, grabbing some studio gear and software. So when the kids get a bit older, I’m know what I’ll be doing 🙂. It’s hard to remove something you like to do instinctively, but I’m glad and grateful for what I’ve got. And still in it for music in the long run, though I sure won’t end up in LA and probably not professionally in some real sense.
> I think you could teach music parttime with your background and build connections, Scoring trailers and such and have a somewhat steady income for a while. Maybe there is middle ground?
> 
> Frankly, music business seem to be a horror to me. I met some instrumentalists through teaching at my school (one performing own shows with national music celebrities, one used to world tours and yet another former session singer in London) and not even for them it’s a stable income. It’s a tough game when you can be great, proven it, have connections and still not make a living of it. Guess the best Swede in music business lately got to be the Spotify founders...and Avicii, but that’s another sad story. But every business has some reality and downsides outsiders don’t see, right? As well as good sides.
> Anyway, whatever advice you heed, don’t skip sleep as some suggested. I did it working hard, hit the Wall twice. A couple of years since then, still can’t sleep without 💊. I can stare at the ceiling for days, I’m broken 😞 in that way. Nobody should give that advice to anybody...


Unfortunately, if you are a film and tv composer working on a production for a Hollywood studio, you are going to be in a situation where you are working enormous 16+ hours a day 7 days a week and sometimes you may have to do allnighters too. There is no way around this as the studios don't even think about how demanding this profession is when they hire a composer. They simply expect an enormous amount of work to get done in such short time tables that the composers have little choice but to work such long hours. I don't mind the grueling hours since one is lucky to have this kind of work, but it's not uncommon for composers to need downtime between projects to refuel themselves for the next battle  Realize, that the most difficult thing about being a film and tv composer it getting the gig, not doing the work. And, getting the gig is a very elusive reality if not near impossible unless you are on the A-list of top composers who get hired over and over again. So, one needs lots of luck for a stable career as a composer to unfold as there are too many talented, patient, determined, skilled composers out there who want the gig all the time. Hollywood is not a place that values merit nearly as much as it does momentum and bragging. If a film one worked on becomes a huge blockbuster success, that becomes a means to enable one to get other composing gigs. Getting hired to be the composer on a big budget film is almost impossible. Also, nothing beats having a top director wanting to only work with a particular composer to secure one's future career, this kind of relationship is exceptionally rare to have happen to any specific composer but usually the kind of relationship that matters most to who gets hired for the production.


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## Tveten

JonS said:


> Unfortunately, if you are a film and tv composer working on a production for a Hollywood studio, you are going to be in a situation where you are working enormous 16+ hours a day 7 days a week and sometimes you may have to do allnighters too. There is no way around this as the studios don't even think about how demanding this profession is when they hire a composer. They simply expect an enormous amount of work to get done in such short time tables that the composers have little choice but to work such long hours. I don't mind the grueling hours since one is lucky to have this kind of work, but it's not uncommon for composers to need downtime between projects to refuel themselves for the next battle  Realize, that the most difficult thing about being a film and tv composer it getting the gig, not doing the work. And, getting the gig is a very elusive reality if not near impossible unless you are on the A-list of top composers who get hired over and over again. So, one needs lots of luck for a stable career as a composer to unfold as there are too many talented, patient, determined, skilled composers out there who want the gig all the time. Hollywood is not a place that values merit nearly as much as it does momentum and bragging. If a film one worked on becomes a huge blockbuster success, that becomes a means to enable one to get other composing gigs. Getting hired to be the composer on a big budget film is almost impossible. Also, nothing beats having a top director wanting to only work with a particular composer to secure one's future career, this kind of relationship is exceptionally rare to have happen to any specific composer but usually the kind of relationship that matters most to who gets hired for the production.



yes I understand that’s the prize you pay, but that’s different from doing a daytime job and working in the nights as well before you even get a foot in. I know it can be done for shorter periods, but recovery time is essential...


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## JonS

Tveten said:


> yes I understand that’s the prize you pay, but that’s different from doing a daytime job and working in the nights as well before you even get a foot in. I know it can be done for shorter periods, but recovery time is essential...


Unfortunately, no one can really control or plan any of this. The only choice is to say no and not pursue this career path if sleeping regular hours means that much to you.


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## Andrajas

Got some nice royalties today, the sum actually covers everything I lost during covid. So today is a good day!


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## classified_the_x

Andrajas said:


> Got some nice royalties today, the sum actually covers everything I lost during covid. So today is a good day!



congrats, I can't believe this thread is still going strong and it was sort of depressing and demotivating tbh. hope for all of us though


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## Andrajas

classified_the_x said:


> congrats, I can't believe this thread is still going strong and it was sort of depressing and demotivating tbh. hope for all of us though


Thanks! Ye some good news in these difficult times. Ye pretty crazy that this post got this much attention. I appreciate all comments, been very helpful to me


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## Fever Phoenix

Andrajas said:


> Thanks! Ye some good news in these difficult times. Ye pretty crazy that this post got this much attention. I appreciate all comments, been very helpful to me



because it is the same challenging hustle for everybody outthere?


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## Andrajas

Fever Phoenix said:


> because it is the same challenging hustle for everybody outthere?


Dont know if I should feel good or bad about it 😅


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## Fever Phoenix

Andrajas said:


> Dont know if I should feel good or bad about it 😅


I am saying that I can relate to your post(s)


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## tarantulis

I'm 29 with no music degree. I moved out to LA two years ago to pursue film scoring so take what I have to say with a grain of salt...

My experience has been, if you're persistent enough and can really embrace not knowing what comes next, you can land a job writing music and getting paid for your work. The problem is, these gigs are not enough to pay the rent. So having some kind of side-hustle is important, and will keep you from burning yourself out.

In my experience, burnout is the thing you want to avoid more than anything. Even if it means you have to divide your time in a way where you're not dedicating 100% of it to music.

Unless you're one of those people who's already established yourself, this has probably been the hardest year in human history to be a composer in LA. Give yourself a break, and know that opportunities are out there for you, if you're willing to do what it takes. Compromise is part of the process sometimes.


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## JonS

tarantulis said:


> I'm 29 with no music degree. I moved out to LA two years ago to pursue film scoring so take what I have to say with a grain of salt...
> 
> My experience has been, if you're persistent enough and can really embrace not knowing what comes next, you can land a job writing music and getting paid for your work. The problem is, these gigs are not enough to pay the rent. So having some kind of side-hustle is important, and will keep you from burning yourself out.
> 
> In my experience, burnout is the thing you want to avoid more than anything. Even if it means you have to divide your time in a way where you're not dedicating 100% of it to music.
> 
> Unless you're one of those people who's already established yourself, this has probably been the hardest year in human history to be a composer in LA. Give yourself a break, and know that opportunities are out there for you, if you're willing to do what it takes. Compromise is part of the process sometimes.


Getting hired as a composer and still not making the rent and expenses means you are not getting major projects from major studios, which are extremely difficult to get. This is why building a career as a film and tv composer is almost impossible to achieve as one has to be absurdly lucky for those breaks to play out. Getting paid chump change to be a composer usually leads to nothing when one is building your career. This is not a knock on you at all, it just shows how hard this biz is to establish oneself. This is not just about 2020, its always been like this for composers who want to build real careers in the industry. Unless one gets preposterously lucky, which none of us control, the odds are one cannot pursue this biz for very long if you need to pay bills.


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## wsimpson

Matt Donovan said:


> You make a valid point - Film Composition requires project management skills. Project Managers are always in demand. The job is flexible and one can earn a decent living income. It beats working in a low paid, soul destroying dead-end job that leaves you little time to work on your music. For anyone interested, a good place to start is the Project Management Institute's website: www.pmi.org - There is lots of free useful info and a free Introduction to Project Management course.
> 
> Keep working on your music and making contacts. Good things will come.


I am a project manager in a large tech company who wants to be a film composer someday. I have worked on two volunteer 48 hour film projects in Seattle and have found a way to contribute to the overall production as a project manager as well as composer. I have found that helping out in any way I can through pre-production planning that comes naturally to me has enabled me to learn a lot about film production and develop relationships that may or may not turn into something else in the future. One thing I know for sure - it has been a ton of fun learning how all of this works and getting a few composer credits along the way.


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## JJP

I recently participated in a podcast where we discussed a lot of issues around starting out in the industry and expectations versus reality. Some folks may find it helpful. I posted about it on the forum HERE.


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## JonS

wsimpson said:


> I am a project manager in a large tech company who wants to be a film composer someday. I have worked on two volunteer 48 hour film projects in Seattle and have found a way to contribute to the overall production as a project manager as well as composer. I have found that helping out in any way I can through pre-production planning that comes naturally to me has enabled me to learn a lot about film production and develop relationships that may or may not turn into something else in the future. One thing I know for sure - it has been a ton of fun learning how all of this works and getting a few composer credits along the way.


The people who succeed as film composers are mostly lucky so this is not a career one can pursue with any kind of certainty or structure. One needs to be primarily lucky to succeed in this biz and if this is a career you must pursue be prepared to lose everything to pursue it and you still may never succeed in this biz. Succeeding in this biz is not about talent, charisma, persistence, determination or hard work. One must be preposterously lucky more than anything else. It's a given that one has talent, is determined and will work very long hours, but those traits have nothing to do with success.


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## Daryl

JonS said:


> The people who succeed as film composers are mostly lucky so this is not a career one can pursue with any kind of certainty or structure. One needs to be primarily lucky to succeed in this biz and if this is a career you must pursue be prepared to lose everything to pursue it and you still may never succeed in this biz. Succeeding in this biz is not about talent, charisma, persistence, determination or hard work. One must be preposterously lucky more than anything else. It's a given that one has talent, is determined and will work very long hours, but those traits have nothing to do with success.


Some of it is about talent, though.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Luck might get you in the door, but it’s talent, communication skills and work ethic that will keep you there.


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## Daryl

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Luck might get you in the door, but it’s talent, communication skills and work ethic that will keep you there.


Agreed. Partially you can make your own luck, by actually being good at the job, and having skills. The number of people who moan about "not being to get into films" and it turns out that they not only can't play an instrument, but can't even read music. Sure, there are people who became successful whilst being able to do neither, but they are the exceptions. The number of people who don't have those skills who also didn't become successful is huge. By having skills, you make yourself employable, which can get you a foot into the door of the profession. Once you are part of the profession, it is much easier to "meet people" and make your own luck.


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## Bernard Duc

JonS said:


> The people who succeed as film composers are mostly lucky so this is not a career one can pursue with any kind of certainty or structure. One needs to be primarily lucky to succeed in this biz and if this is a career you must pursue be prepared to lose everything to pursue it and you still may never succeed in this biz. Succeeding in this biz is not about talent, charisma, persistence, determination or hard work. One must be preposterously lucky more than anything else. It's a given that one has talent, is determined and will work very long hours, but those traits have nothing to do with success.


I don't know anybody who was talented, had charisma, persistence, determination, worked hard and didn't make it.


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## Daryl

Bernard Duc said:


> I don't know anybody who was talented, had charisma, persistence, determination, worked hard and didn't make it.


I do, but most of the people I know who didn't make it had few skills and often were lazy.


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## tmhuud

Haven’t read any of the posts except for the first. Never regret your education man. It’s a journey. Tell me you didn’t gain something life sustaining from it. Met some good people maybe? Learned and shared from their life experiences which made yours something better?


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## Bernard Duc

Daryl said:


> I do, but most of the people I know who didn't make it had few skills and often were lazy.


Some people decide to do something else, realize it's not for them, but are they persistent in this case? Not saying they are wrong by the way, it's nor a career for everybody... actually I would say it's not a career for most people, but if they really want to do it and are persistent, then they probably won't give up easily.


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## Andrajas

Cool to see this thread alive and kicking! 
Things have turned for the better which i'm thankful for. Money is atleast not an issue right now. 
Im busy, but still not happy with my success within the film/game scoring world. Was some years since I last worked on a feature. Been mostly commercials for me as of late. 

But thanks for the support yet again!


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## JonS

Bernard Duc said:


> I don't know anybody who was talented, had charisma, persistence, determination, worked hard and didn't make it.


You just are not aware of the vast multitude of talented composers that will never make it no matter what they do and how hard they try. Talent doesn't rise to the top, that's complete bullshit. The most successful are the most lucky, that's all. Some of them like John Williams are incredibly talented, but many are not nearly as talented and just got lucky. And even John Williams, as brilliant as he is and as much as I adore his scores, is notorious for ripping off the classical catalogue more than most. This is true in most industries, not just the film biz. There are endless numbers of talented people that never make it no matter how hard they try in every industry in the world, that's life. You don't have to agree with me, but when you've been around long enough you will find this is an axiom of truth.


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## JonS

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Luck might get you in the door, but it’s talent, communication skills and work ethic that will keep you there.


It's a given that a film composer has to have talent and work very hard in this biz to get the job done, but there are an enormous amount of film composers that will never make it if they don't have luck on their shoulder in the most significant way because not only is it fairly impossible to get the gig, its very hard to get the gig over and over and over again no matter how talented one is. You have to hope that an A-list director only wants to work with you over and over again to be able to carve out a significant career in this biz.


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## CT

JonS said:


> is notorious for ripping off the classical catalogue more than most.


...only among those who take the most cursory glance at this stuff and come to the most cursory conclusions. Most of the typical examples of this people cite in his music are pretty tenuous.


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## hoxclab

Be lucky you don't have a kid and house. You don't want that bullshit man. Kids are asses and houses are bullshit. Get you a tent and girlfriend and a nice computer full of VSTs and enjoy life.


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## JonS

Michaelt said:


> ...only among those who take the most cursory glance at this stuff and come to the most cursory conclusions. Most of the typical examples of this people cite in his music are pretty tenuous.


Don't take me out of context. I said,"Some of them like John Williams are incredibly talented, but many are not nearly as talented and just got lucky. And even John Williams, as brilliant as he is and as much as I adore his scores, is notorious for ripping off the classical catalogue more than most." So I think Williams is the most brilliant of all and rarely is anyone as talented as he is. However, not every single thing JW writes is from him, that's all. But way more than a cursory glance of JW is littered with the classical catalogue, so you aren't paying careful attention.


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## CT

JonS said:


> Don't take me out of context. I said,"Some of them like John Williams are incredibly talented, but many are not nearly as talented and just got lucky. And even John Williams, as brilliant as he is and as much as I adore his scores, is notorious for ripping off the classical catalogue more than most." So I think Williams is the most brilliant of all and rarely is anyone as talented as he is. However, not every single thing JW writes is from him, that's all. But way more than a cursory glance of JW is littered with the classical catalogue, so you aren't paying careful attention.


Nothing was taken out of context. I was responding to that particular statement. And I'm paying attention just fine.


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## Bernard Duc

JonS said:


> You just are not aware of the vast multitude of talented composers that will never make it no matter what they do and how hard they try. Talent doesn't rise to the top, that's complete bullshit. The most successful are the most lucky, that's all. Some of them like John Williams are incredibly talented, but many are not nearly as talented and just got lucky. And even John Williams, as brilliant as he is and as much as I adore his scores, is notorious for ripping off the classical catalogue more than most. This is true in most industries, not just the film biz. There are endless numbers of talented people that never make it no matter how hard they try in every industry in the world, that's life. You don't have to agree with me, but when you've been around long enough you will find this is an axiom of truth.


You might not get to work on huge films but making a living writing media music is definitely possible and luck has little to do with it. When I was in college there were a few students who had all the required quality and now, four years later, they all made it.


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## JonS

Bernard Duc said:


> You might not get to work on huge films but making a living writing media music is definitely possible and luck has little to do with it. When I was in college there were a few students who had all the required quality and now, four years later, they all made it.


I am only talking about working on major Hollywood studio film and television productions, so I have no clue what you are referring to.


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## Arbee

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> Luck might get you in the door, but it’s talent, communication skills and work ethic that will keep you there.


Agree 100%. And I've known plenty of exceptionally talented folk who are difficult to work with and think they're just unlucky.


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## Bernard Duc

JonS said:


> I am only talking about working on major Hollywood studio film and television productions, so I have no clue what you are referring to.


We are talking of "making it" in this industry. Looking at it as only scoring major studio films or TV production seems to be horribly reductive.


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## MartinH.

Andrajas said:


> Cool to see this thread alive and kicking!
> Things have turned for the better which i'm thankful for.


I'm really happy to hear that! I was wondering how things turned out for you but didn't dare to ask.


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## JonS

Bernard Duc said:


> We are talking of "making it" in this industry. Looking at it as only scoring major studio films or TV production seems to be horribly reductive.


My comments were about what I have experience and knowledge of which is composing for major Hollywood film and tv productions. I can't speak to any other part of the business. So how one succeeds in the video game biz or in the music library business is not something I can speak about. Certainly, many professions in the world are not nearly as impossible to succeed at as wanting to become a successful film and tv composer. But when people are talking about how easy it is to become a successful "media composer" I have no clue what they are talking about. It is near impossible to become a successful film and television composer and requires mostly luck as everyone is talented, persistent and hardworking who pursues this career. It's not talent that determines someone's success in this industry, it's purely luck. But how one succeeds writing jingles or music library music or video games music is not something I can speak about in any way as I don't have any experience in those segments. I know there is huge money to be made as a video game composer if you can get regular gigs on major video game releases. But there's very little money to be made in the independent film world, and doing small media projects can be hard to scrape a living on. So, how does one make enough money to not have to have a day job so one could support a family with children eventually saving up enough for retirement and paying for your kids college educations, I don't know if that's feasible being a "media composer" if one is not doing major films, tv shows or video games. But, I don't know. I do know that the pay is substantially "reduced" for smaller projects and one would have to be overwhelmed with work to make a decent living. I think making it entails making enough of a living that you don't need to work a day gig and provides enough funds to support and nurture a family. I don't think getting one gig means someone has made it unless its a long running tv show that pays well with backend royalties, which likely will lead to other projects. I am not trying to insult anyone, just sharing my experience. I know composers who frequently do independent films and smaller budgeted movies, but they could never do those gigs if they didn't have a major day gig that was not being a composer which provided them the funds to do these projects with horribly reduced budgets compared to major Hollywood productions. I don't consider anyone making it in an industry if they can't quit their day job to get by and work at nights and weekends at being a composer when the gig appears.


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## Gene Pool

JonS said:


> My comments were about what I have experience and knowledge of which is composing for major Hollywood film and tv productions. I can't speak to any other part of the business. So how one succeeds in the video game biz or in the music library business is not something I can speak about. Certainly, many professions in the world are not nearly as impossible to succeed at as wanting to become a successful film and tv composer. But when people are talking about how easy it is to become a successful "media composer" I have no clue what they are talking about. It is near impossible to become a successful film and television composer and requires mostly luck as everyone is talented, persistent and hardworking who pursues this career. It's not talent that determines someone's success in this industry, it's purely luck. But how one succeeds writing jingles or music library music or video games music is not something I can speak about in any way as I don't have any experience in those segments. I know there is huge money to be made as a video game composer if you can get regular gigs on major video game releases. But there's very little money to be made in the independent film world, and doing small media projects can be hard to scrape a living on. So, how does one make enough money to not have to have a day job so one could support a family with children eventually saving up enough for retirement and paying for your kids college educations, I don't know if that's feasible being a "media composer" if one is not doing major films, tv shows or video games. But, I don't know. I do know that the pay is substantially "reduced" for smaller projects and one would have to be overwhelmed with work to make a decent living. I think making it entails making enough of a living that you don't need to work a day gig and provides enough funds to support and nurture a family. I don't think getting one gig means someone has made it unless its a long running tv show that pays well with backend royalties, which likely will lead to other projects. I am not trying to insult anyone, just sharing my experience. I know composers who frequently do independent films and smaller budgeted movies, but they could never do those gigs if they didn't have a major day gig that was not being a composer which provided them the funds to do these projects with horribly reduced budgets compared to major Hollywood productions. I don't consider anyone making it in an industry if they can't quit their day job to get by and work at nights and weekends at being a composer when the gig appears.


My kingdom for a paragraph break.


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## JonS

Gene Pool said:


> My kingdom for a paragraph break.


Apologies, Your Grace


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## Kyle Preston

JonS said:


> But when people are talking about how easy it is to become a successful "media composer" I have no clue what they are talking about.


Who has _actually_ described this process as _easy_? 


My opinion, which no one asked for, the single most important career question to ask yourself: Are you a _media composer _or a _recording artist_? 

An honest answer to this question requires a caboodle of self-awareness. And that self-awareness will help carve a career path for you. 

Moreover, if you do this for awhile, it becomes obvious that one of these paths is a zero-sum game (if you win, someone else loses) and the other is a positive-sum game (if someone else wins, you win too).


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## TonalDynamics

Andrajas said:


> So, I just have to get this out of my chest since things are just fcking bad right now...
> 
> As the title suggest, I have a master degree in film scoring. I decided to take this route of studying music on higher level for 5 years (bachelor and master degrees) as my first choice in criminology didn't work out. I wanted to study music so bad. I really wanted to focus my time on my passion.
> 
> My time during my master degree was awesome. Got to experience a lot of things and got to work on exiting stuff. Got to assist an established composer for his projects which together with my education, was a great experience. There are many positive things to say about this period in my life.
> 
> 2 Years after my master degree, here I am today, kinda broken, financially.
> Its been a lot of struggles. First year after my master degree, I was able to stay afloat from assisting mostly. But for 1 year now, there are no assisting jobs for me to do (not because of bad relationship, just not enough good paying work to need an assistant). My own career hasn't really taken off, no film/game projects has come across me. Only rejections. I get to write trailer music tho which always helps me to have something to work for.
> 
> But when corona happened, I tried to be 1 step a head and actually get a day job to bring in some money. I got one at a supermarket and started working there in late June. However, today I got told that this week, my work there ends. The thought was that this was a "summer job" (that was the description of the position) that could turn into more. But unfortunately it stayed as a summer job. So here I am, having to worry about money again..
> 
> As my music work don't really bring in any income, I now have to search for a new day job. And thats not always easy....So after reflecting on this, and with the struggles I have. I start to regret my past decisions, rather than getting an education that could turn into a good paying job, and work with my music from there.
> 
> I'm 27 years old. I'm starting to see friends around me having kids and houses, having something built up. I have nothing of that, nothing built... Somehow I thought I would be in a better position than this. I know this kind of career can take a long time to build, but fck me....
> 
> Sorry for the rant and my poor english... but damn, this is hard. Maybe I was to stupid to not see this coming for me.. Am I thinking about this wrongly?


I felt this post very much.

You have to be kind of crazy to try to 'make it' in the music biz', or any form of entertainment business for that matter.

It's always a risk, and never as 'safe' as a traditional profession (but it's also that same type of courage that makes you capable of producing authentic works of art).

Or, you just have to _love_ the craft and have immense passion for it.

Or, you have to be born into it (like Bob Dylan's son for instance, although Wallflowers does have some good songs, but being Dylan's son helps)

Or, you have to be REALLY confident in your own abilities, to the point that you believe if you keep producing and making connections long enough, good things will happen (this is how most success stories go)

Or, any combination of those things to where it's enough to make it through the 'lean' years such as you're in the midst of now (LORD knows I had mine)

You're still young. Chin up, and decide which of these items (or none of them) describes you best.

Cheers


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## gsilbers

This is my take...

one secret to being a (succesfull?) film composer is to have money...

for other careers in the entertianment business as well.


have money to pay for housing and bills while you are an intern sometimes up to 2-3 years.. (get your foot in the door).

have money to pay for housing and bills while you have a crappy assistant paying job.

have money to pay for housing and bills while you practice and wait for that next movie/gig.

have money to go out and socialize and network with the high end crowd that can get you some gigs in LA.

so you need to have at least 40-60K a year minimum of extra cash to pay an income in LA.

it might take 5 to 15 years to "make it".

so about half a million bucks. it can be family cash. it can be renevue generating cash like a side biz or renting out properties etc.

and thats not mentioning connections.


No matter how much education you have or how close you sound to john williams... the above is more important.
not that the other stuff doesnt matter... but without money you wont meet poeple. you wont make it. and you won't be able to practice, get demos or further your career.

Im sure you have that once example of a composer who did make it.... and i probably have 20 others who had money to begin with. just try looking at your favorite film composer wiki page and extra polate the money fact.
Like Brian Tylers grandad. his music is fine and all.. but.. you know...
same with junkie xl and just "hanging out in LA and nothing was happening" story he mentions..

well, my take at least, living in breathing the LA E industry for 20 years in all capacities.


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## ed buller

A huge part about being a successful film composer is dealing with YOUR ego and other peoples. The successful ones for the most part completely ignore theirs, and are seemingly not all bothered by their clients.....The people skills required are almost bottomless.

best

ed


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## Arbee

ed buller said:


> A huge part about being a successful film composer is dealing with YOUR ego and other peoples. The successful ones for the most part completely ignore theirs, and are seemingly not all bothered by their clients.....The people skills required are almost bottomless.
> 
> best
> 
> ed


John Williams appears to me as one of those rare folks who has that perfect balance of exuding extreme confidence and sublime humility, all at once. As well as a monster talent of course!


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## JJP

gsilbers said:


> one secret to being a (succesfull?) film composer is to have money...
> 
> for other careers in the entertianment business as well.


I may put a slightly less acerbic spin on it, but this is the truth for most people starting out today that no one likes to discuss. Most people don't have a pile of cash on which to rely, so there is no shame at all in doing something else to support yourself.


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## JJP

ed buller said:


> A huge part about being a successful film composer is dealing with YOUR ego and other peoples. The successful ones for the most part completely ignore theirs, and are seemingly not all bothered by their clients.....The people skills required are almost bottomless.


I've also found that ignoring your ego does not have to mean allowing people to abuse you. There is a difference.


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## JonS

Kyle Preston said:


> Who has _actually_ described this process as _easy_?
> 
> 
> My opinion, which no one asked for, the single most important career question to ask yourself: Are you a _media composer _or a _recording artist_?
> 
> An honest answer to this question requires a caboodle of self-awareness. And that self-awareness will help carve a career path for you.
> 
> Moreover, if you do this for awhile, it becomes obvious that one of these paths is a zero-sum game (if you win, someone else loses) and the other is a positive-sum game (if someone else wins, you win too).


Easy in the sense that there is some predictable structured path to success as a film a tv composer. There isn't. No Union protects composers, and making it as a film and tv composer for Hollywood productions is very difficult if not near impossible if that is what one sets out to do. 

It may be more tenable to become a media composer for small budget projects, but how one makes a living doing that is beyond me. There are only so many projects that happen in Hollywood every year, so usually a small set of A-list composers get these projects as each one has a relationship with the director of that film or the producer of that tv show. These relationships are almost impossible to forge and if one is lucky enough to get hired over and over again by the same director or producer one can get an agent and make it in the biz. This is just not something that going to music school and being talented will guarantee in any way. Talent and persistence won't matter nearly as much as sheer luck.


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## MarkusS

If you are starting out in this business you have to realise that you actually never really “make” it. You survive and that from one year to the other. Anyone of us is out of the picture from one day to the other. It’s in and out. No one will regret you when you are gone, more room for the others.

What @JonS is trying to say I think is that with hard work, yes, you can land a few gigs and get by but what is out of your control is if that project you are working on will be a huge commercial success. And if it does happen you will probably benefit from it. Find an agent, get sollicitated.

I do believe it’s a legend that the cream rises to the top etc. We’d like to believe it because it seems like we have some sort of control over our lives and career but if you look at successful people and composers, yes, you can’t help but notice their wealthy backgrounds, the connections of their parents, the places they were born.

Is it luck to be born into a millionaire family? I suppose it is. Those artists like to put the legend in front of them, how they struggled with no money, but it’s quite a different perspective on life when you know that whatever happens your family wealth got your back. Not saying there is no merit but still, it’s luck in the beginning and without it they would not be where they are.

Now, you can survive as a media composer but what you need before anything else (any type of musical talent) is marketing skill.

Composers have to be marketing experts, passionate about it, I’d say. You have to sell what everyone has and make people believe it’s somehow worth more than what others do. Like you have a magic formula or something. Your music doesn’t even matter at this point it’s all about marketing.

Successful composers I know breath marketing every day, it’s their main activity, to sell themselves to whoever will listen.


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## gsilbers

gsilbers said:


> This is my take...
> 
> one secret to being a (succesfull?) film composer is to have money...
> 
> for other careers in the entertianment business as well.
> 
> 
> have money to pay for housing and bills while you are an intern sometimes up to 2-3 years.. (get your foot in the door).
> 
> have money to pay for housing and bills while you have a crappy assistant paying job.
> 
> have money to pay for housing and bills while you practice and wait for that next movie/gig.
> 
> have money to go out and socialize and network with the high end crowd that can get you some gigs in LA.
> 
> so you need to have at least 40-60K a year minimum of extra cash to pay an income in LA.
> 
> it might take 5 to 15 years to "make it".
> 
> so about half a million bucks. it can be family cash. it can be renevue generating cash like a side biz or renting out properties etc.
> 
> and thats not mentioning connections.
> 
> 
> No matter how much education you have or how close you sound to john williams... the above is more important.
> not that the other stuff doesnt matter... but without money you wont meet poeple. you wont make it. and you won't be able to practice, get demos or further your career.
> 
> Im sure you have that once example of a composer who did make it.... and i probably have 20 others who had money to begin with. just try looking at your favorite film composer wiki page and extra polate the money fact.
> Like Brian Tylers grandad. his music is fine and all.. but.. you know...
> same with junkie xl and just "hanging out in LA and nothing was happening" story he mentions..
> 
> well, my take at least, living in breathing the LA E industry for 20 years in all capacities.



Another way of seeing what I wrote above is that a composer doesn’t get a “job” ala old days like John Williams.
A composer now is a business which needs funding. Can start small like any biz and grow.


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## JonS

MarkusS said:


> If you are starting out in this business you have to realise that you actually never really “make” it. You survive and that from one year to the other. Anyone of us is out of the picture from one day to the other. It’s in and out. No one will regret you when you are gone, more room for the others.
> 
> What @JonS is trying to say I think is that with hard work, yes, you can land a few gigs and get by but what is out of your control is if that project you are working on will be a huge commercial success. And if it does happen you will probably benefit from it. Find an agent, get sollicitated.
> 
> I do believe it’s a legend that the cream rises to the top etc. We’d like to believe it because it seems like we have some sort of control over our lives and career but if you look at successful people and composers, yes, you can’t help but notice their wealthy backgrounds, the connections of their parents, the places they were born.
> 
> Is it luck to be born into a millionaire family? I suppose it is. Those artists like to put the legend in front of them, how they struggled with no money, but it’s quite a different perspective on life when you know that whatever happens your family wealth got your back. Not saying there is no merit but still, it’s luck in the beginning and without it they would not be where they are.
> 
> Now, you can survive as a media composer but what you need before anything else (any type of musical talent) is marketing skill.
> 
> Composers have to be marketing experts, passionate about it, I’d say. You have to sell what everyone has and make people believe it’s somehow worth more than what others do. Like you have a magic formula or something. Your music doesn’t even matter at this point it’s all about marketing.
> 
> Successful composers I know breath marketing every day, it’s their main activity, to sell themselves to whoever will listen.


Well said, Markus. If a composer is lucky enough to get a gig or two or more you really need that relationship with the film director or tv producer to flourish. It's not just that they want to hire you over and over again, you need them to produce projects that do well for the studios so there are bigger production budgets one can get paid from. And in my case, I had developed a relationship with a film/tv producer who had no honor at all. He loved ripping off actors, writers, composers, CGI artists, anyone he could hire for dramatically less than what the studio actually budgeted for those people. And studios can be scumbags too. 

No matter who the producer or studio exec is, ignore any lowball offers, find out what the production budget is and ask for 2-3% of the total production budget as your creative fee, which does not include orchestrators, musicians, copyists, cartage, studio rental, mixing engineers, etc... If you have a sense of how many minutes of music you may need to compose, make sure your creative fee comes out to at least $500-$1,000 per minute of music. My sense is that top composers like Hans Zimmer and JW get $25,000 to $70,000 per minute of music as a creative fee. So it's not like any other composer is breaking the bank, they aren't and more importantly the studios always budget 2-3% for a composer's creative fee so if you get less than this amount it's money they were expecting to spend on you anyway. 

Don't negotiate with yourself and settle for less than you deserve regardless if you are experienced or not as a composer. The more experienced composers are getting the much bigger budgeted productions so don't worry about that. Don't be afraid to ask for 3% of the production budget. Stand firm. Don't settle for less than 2% of the total budget either. When I refused to budge is when I get paid what I deserve, and anytime I believed the producer's or studio exec's lies that this was take it or leave it offer I always got burned and would find out I could have gotten 5-40 times more in creative fees. 

The producers and studios will respect you so much more if you don't take lowball offers and stand firm. If you do take a lowball offer and believe their lies during negotiation they will lose respect for you and it will be hard to get those people to ever pay you the fees you deserve in the future. Plus, when other studios find out how much you got paid from previous projects they will always lose respect for you and pay you less too. So it's critical that you do not work for less than 2% of the production budget or it can be impossible to break this chain of being taken advantage of in the industry.

Animation typically requires wall-to-wall music, so if you know the projected runtime of the project you can assume this is how many minutes of music you would be scoring-to-picture. I worked with producers who always wanted wall-to-wall music, which I think is often a mistake for the project as music can be appreciated more when the drama can breathe at times and I think wall-to-wall music exhausts the listener/audience.

There should be a union for composers, I have no clue why AFM simply does not protect composers too as that would make the most sense since they do protect orchestrators already.


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## JJP

JonS said:


> There should be a union for composers, I have no clue why AFM simply does not protect composers too as that would make the most sense since they do protect orchestrators already.


Composers do need a union, but composers must decide this for ourselves. An existing union can't swoop in and cover any group of workers. The workers must decide to join.

Sorry, this is getting off-topic for the thread so I won't say more.


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## Jeremy Spencer

MarkusS said:


> I do believe it’s a legend that the cream rises to the top


Yes, this is a delusion. There are tons of extremely talented composers (the cream) that will never get that lucky break.....and there are a lot of composers that make you wonder how on earth they became so successful. Just because you're an outstanding composer does not mean you'll be successful.


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