# QL Spaces Vs Altiverb Vs MIR



## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 21, 2012)

I would love to hear opinions. 

Is altiverb as good as they say? If one owned Spaces, would altiverb be the next step up?
What is MIR like and how does it compare to Altiverb?


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## A.C.Edwards (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi there,

I've used Altiverb and Spaces. Haven't used MIR...

Basically I currently use only Spaces in my current setup. It works great out of the box with very little tweaking needed. ACME setting is great for the smaller sounds, Sth Cali Hall is great for the stage and Hamburg great for the big tails.. Don't really need anything else.

Altiverb is a bit more fiddley but can yield fantastic results as well. I only used it as a bit of an amateur realistically, but I could never get it to sound natural (others DEFINITELY have though  )

In terms of customisation Spaces is extremely limited. Since it's recent update it has a high and low pass filter option, but thats it. Other than Mix and Predelay of course.

Altiverb you can change everything... its very detailed and tweakable.

So I guess its a matter of whether your willing to tweak for hours to get our perfect sonic space or use some fantastic presets that are great (but will probably become the Symphobia of reverb [you hear it everywhere]}.

Hope that helps a little


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## EastWest Lurker (Feb 21, 2012)

Well MIR is an entirely different beast than Soaces or Altiverb and does not belong in the same conversation IMHO and I think EW, Audio Ease and VSL would all agree with this statement.

Of course as I work part time for EW you are entitled to be skeptical but I am telling you honestly that even if I did not, I think Spaces sounds considerably better than Altiverb and since I got it, I simply have not used Altiverb.


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## Diffusor (Feb 21, 2012)

MIR is freaking amazing and I don't even consider it just a mere reverb. It's a space and mixing plugin. 

I have Space. It's alright. Your typical convolver with better than average impulses. The plugin itself is a little limited; no tweaking of impulses really. And of course somewhat buggy, to the point I don't use it much. For some reason randomly it will decide not to load impulses; they supposedly fixed this in a update but didn't work here.

Altiverb is cool too, probably with the most comprehensive impulse library and the most editable.

Don't forget the VSL impulse reverb, especially the Numerical Sound impulses made for it.


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## A.C.Edwards (Feb 21, 2012)

Diffusor what DAW are you running? Just curious about the bugs with Spaces - I haven't had any bugs with it since the most recent update. From memory before the hi & low pass filter update I had some slight issues with re opening a project and not loading the impulses but since I upgraded to Windows 7 64x & got the latest update I've been perfect


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## Nick Phoenix (Feb 21, 2012)

It comes down to sound versus edit ability. Spaces doesn't let you do much. Altivrb and MIR let you do all kinds of things. However, this comes at a sonic price. Altiverb is the king of convolution reverbs, but the impulses mostly sound very lo fi compared to Spaces. This is not an opinion, but a fact that can be verified by using the impulses 100% wet and comparing to the source. MIR is better in this regard but still not stellar. MIR is probably one of the coolest pieces of software around, but Spaces can simply sound better and is more versatile genre wise. I did some tests and mostly preferred Spaces to MIR, but not always. Sometimes I thought MIR had a very nice color to it that improved the source material. The odd thing is that I used 150 k worth of vintage Neuman/Neve gear to record Spaces, so you would think that Spaces would have a lot of color and vibe, and yet the impulses are very clear, and MIR, from the masters of super clean samples, sounds more colored.


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## marcotronic (Feb 21, 2012)

I use MIR Pro and QL Spaces in combination - the ER/room part with studio venues in MIR Pro and the final reverb with Spaces. I think they complement each other very well.

Marco


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## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 22, 2012)

I havnt used Spaces but hear good things about it from trusted friends.

I do own VSL convolution and Hybrid - they are amazing! If you buy the Numerical Sound FORTI or SERTI - they are really, really good.

I find VSL convolution much, much better than Altiverb. Hybrid is also a great reverb!

I did some beta-testing with MIR a year back and it was really good.

MIR is a completely different concept and has nothing in common with Spaces. 

It is a Multi-Impulse-Response technology which is very different than spaces.

Everytime you move the virtual player around, a new IR is triggered. This has not been done by anyone yet and the whole approach is completely different.

I intend to get into MIR but only once I know what the future of VSL is. I will only need it if I continue to use VSL samples in the future and I need to know where their samples are headed. 

My personal favourite and reccomendation is Vienna Suite. Its really awesome! 


Best,

Tanuj.


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## jamwerks (Feb 22, 2012)

Are we talking about Altiverb 7 here? Are there any new IR's?


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## Diffusor (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> It comes down to sound versus edit ability. Spaces doesn't let you do much. Altivrb and MIR let you do all kinds of things. However, this comes at a sonic price. Altiverb is the king of convolution reverbs, but the impulses mostly sound very lo fi compared to Spaces. This is not an opinion, but a fact that can be verified by using the impulses 100% wet and comparing to the source. MIR is better in this regard but still not stellar. MIR is probably one of the coolest pieces of software around, but Spaces can simply sound better and is more versatile genre wise. I did some tests and mostly preferred Spaces to MIR, but not always. Sometimes I thought MIR had a very nice color to it that improved the source material. The odd thing is that I used 150 k worth of vintage Neuman/Neve gear to record Spaces, so you would think that Spaces would have a lot of color and vibe, and yet the impulses are very clear, and MIR, from the masters of super clean samples, sounds more colored.



You probably didn't get a chance to check out the Teldex studio venue with MIR? Sounds glorious, and again it's not about reverb as much as a space and mixing plugin. I prefer the Teldex to the other venues they have.


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## Diffusor (Feb 22, 2012)

A.C.Edwards @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> Diffusor what DAW are you running? Just curious about the bugs with Spaces - I haven't had any bugs with it since the most recent update. From memory before the hi & low pass filter update I had some slight issues with re opening a project and not loading the impulses but since I upgraded to Windows 7 64x & got the latest update I've been perfect



Cubase and Nuendo 32 bit on Windows 7 64 bit.


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## studioj (Feb 22, 2012)

I just loaded up Spaces the other day after not using it for a while... it does sound fantastic, but I ran into that Logic pre-delay bug again... thought it was fixed with the last update but apparently not. After about 10 minutes of use, the pre-delay balloons to around a half second. Currently Altiverb is my favorite for versatility, and VSL's Hybrid is my favorite for the lush and deep Orchestral thing. Anyone else still seeing this pre-delay bug? I would love to start using it more, it really does sound great.


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## Diffusor (Feb 22, 2012)

studioj @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> I just loaded up Spaces the other day after not using it for a while... it does sound fantastic, but I ran into that Logic pre-delay bug again... thought it was fixed with the last update but apparently not. After about 10 minutes of use, the pre-delay balloons to around a half second. Currently Altiverb is my favorite for versatility, and VSL's Hybrid is my favorite for the lush and deep Orchestral thing. Anyone else still seeing this pre-delay bug? I would love to start using it more, it really does sound great.



Yup I had still got the predelay bug as well. Projects start out fine but then at some point the predelay get's worse. Really noticeable on drum/percussion material.


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## gsilbers (Feb 22, 2012)

ok mr secret insders's group.....

whats this logic predelay probelm.?


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## Dietz (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> [...] MIR is probably one of the coolest pieces of software around,


Thanks for that, Nick!




> but Spaces can simply sound better and is more versatile genre wise.


Hmmm ... have to admit that I didn't try to mix Mexican Turbo Polka or Japanese Noise Rock with MIR _-) , but pretty much everything else, ranging from virtual orchestral music to pop, rock, jazz, folk and raw electronic stuff. (I won't comment on the "better" part, for understandable reasons ... 0oD )




> I did some tests and mostly preferred Spaces to MIR, but not always. Sometimes I thought MIR had a very nice color to it that improved the source material. The odd thing is that I used 150 k worth of vintage Neuman/Neve gear to record Spaces, so you would think that Spaces would have a lot of color and vibe, and yet the impulses are very clear, and MIR, from the masters of super clean samples, sounds more colored.


Well, the mics used for MIR recording session don't have a price tag, as they are hand-made prototypes, built solely for the task by the wizards at AKG Acoustics (... their head-quarter happens to be just a few blocks away from VSL's).

In any case - just make sure that you're using Version 2 of MIR's "RoomPacks" (which is a requirement for MIR Pro anyway). They have undergone some considerable re-processing since the initial release.

Best,

/Dietz


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## mac4d (Feb 22, 2012)

gsilbers @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> ok mr secret insders's group.....
> 
> whats this logic predelay probelm.?



It's not Logic that has a predelay problem, it's QL Spaces. People using Cubase have reported it as well. The problem as I've seen reported is that the predelay as set in the beginning can change all be itself and become a longer predelay. This is the sole reason I haven't bought Spaces yet, waiting for this to be fixed.


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## jleckie (Feb 22, 2012)

mac4d @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> gsilbers @ Wed Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > ok mr secret insders's group.....
> ...



Interesting. SPACES is on my wish list this month but I am on Logic too. Is there any discussion to update SPACES to fix the pre delay issue?


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## Nick Phoenix (Feb 22, 2012)

Dietz @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> Nick Phoenix @ Wed Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > [...] MIR is probably one of the coolest pieces of software around,
> ...




Dietz, The old vintage German and English vintage gear is still used by most engineers for a reason. VSL went with a modern clean approach and that's fine. But there is no denying that people gravitate towards the sound of the old warm gear. If they didn't, VSL would have put everyone out of business. And I must apologize. the last time I checked, I thought that MIR was just 4 concert halls. I wasn't aware you sampled rock studios, out door locations, plates etc...


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## Nick Phoenix (Feb 22, 2012)

I wasn't aware there was still a Predelay bug. It is fixed here. PLEASE PLEASE report it to EW tech support again. They think ts fixed.


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## Dietz (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> [...] I wasn't aware you sampled rock studios, out door locations, plates etc...



There are several studios available for MIR, and as soon as you find a reverb plate big enough for multi-positional and multi-directional sampling, please tell me. 8)


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## bobulusbillman (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> I wasn't aware there was still a Predelay bug. It is fixed here. PLEASE PLEASE report it to EW tech support again. They think ts fixed.



I sent a support ticket a week ago regarding the predelay bug and I haven't heard anything back. It very much still exists. (Using Cubase 6.0.5 on 10.6)


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## Diffusor (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> I wasn't aware there was still a Predelay bug. It is fixed here. PLEASE PLEASE report it to EW tech support again. They think ts fixed.



I reported it at your forum many months ago. Not too worried about it though.


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## gsilbers (Feb 22, 2012)

so, 

is it fixed or not?


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## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 22, 2012)

I would like to say it again....

If MIR Pro is very expensive or not currently possible to include in your work flow, then please try the VSL convolution reverb.

I work as additional composer on feature films a lot, so I have to move my system all the time and having a two-machine set-up is not a possibility for me and is a practical requirement for MIR.

Once again, if I know what the future of VSL sampling is and as soon as my studio is ready, I will buy MIR Pro. I have only heard good stuff about it and it makes complete sense for people who own VSL products although I understand, its not limited to that.

Vienna Suite is an extremely good sounding set of plug ins. Apart from the reverb, there is really great stuff in it.

But the Reverb really takes the trophy because I cannot get similar results with any other reverb plug in that I have tried. Of course, I have not tried all but it is certainly much better than Altiverb in my opinion.

I have to say however that many Pro guys use Altiverb and make it sound good. So, of course my lack of skills in that department should be taken into account.

But simply put at this time if not for MIR Pro - VSL convolution is my to-go plug in and it is gorgeous!

I also feel VSL is probably the leader in music software development. They are the most progressive music software company at the moment. I just hope, with all the different things going on at the VSL head quarters in Vienna that they are able to unify everything into a single massive vision.

These guys are really working hard and I am so amazed at how well they have done with software. VSL has NEVER crashed in my machine for the past 4 years at least. There isnt a single bug that I have had in my machine. That is really something.

I mean I only use the basic VI Pro, VE and VS but they are all rock solid and that is just beautiful because they are so realiable on top of being great sounding.

I do wish to see new sample products but as Dietz has mentioned many times, they are recording almost everyday....so fingers crossed!

East West make some great products as well and once I am able to create my dream PC-farm, I will think seriously about Hollywood Strings and Brass.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## uselessmind (Feb 22, 2012)

vibrato @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> I would like to say it again....
> 
> If MIR Pro is very expensive or not currently possible to include in your work flow, then please try the VSL convolution reverb.



I would probably do so if it was available as a single plugin purchase, or even as a bundle with the hybrid and power pan.
Sure looks good from the features and videos.


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2012)

uselessmind @ Thu Feb 23 said:


> vibrato @ Thu Feb 23 said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to say it again....
> ...


It's still much cheaper than Altiverb.

TBH I don't really see MIR as part of this comparison. It is a totally different beast to Altiverb and Spaces. It would make more sense to pout the 2 VSL convolution reverbs in the mix here. I think that they are great, and although I liked the idea of the stage placement in Altiverb, it never worked as well as I would have hoped. For me the VSL plugs work much better. The one great thing about Altiverb is the huge choice of IRs. However, there are plenty available within VSL, so that's not a huge deal for me. I also like the Hybrid portion of VSL. This is something that's not available in Altiverb 6.

D


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## Theseus (Feb 23, 2012)

> I also feel VSL is probably the leader in music software development. They are the most progressive music software company at the moment. I just hope, with all the different things going on at the VSL head quarters in Vienna that they are able to unify everything into a single massive vision.



Vibrato, I'm really glad to see I'm not the only one who envision what a VSL DAW, unifying Vienna Ensemble and Vienna Suite would look like. They're really are on top of their game regarding software development and I sure would love to imagine that it's the next logical step for them... but it's a though, very though market right now, espcially with players like Apple who now sell Logic Pro for 199...

But well, if not a fully featured DAW, something close would go a long way in my books.


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## quantum7 (Feb 23, 2012)

Another extremely happy Spaces user here. Ya, not much tweaking options, but it sounds incredible!


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## guydoingmusic (Feb 23, 2012)

Spaces scheduled for delivery tomorrow here. Can't wait to start using it. Tried the demo a while back and loved it.


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## tsalta (May 21, 2014)

sorry I'm 2 years late to the party folks...

But I can tell you for a fact that the Spaces Pre-Delay bug is still an issue, yes, even now in 2014. My issue is that when I recall a Logic project, half of the time, the Spaces patches will have a predelay in the verb untill I reload the patch. Then it's fine.

What confuses me is that until I just discovered this thread, EW has been telling me they never heard of this issue nor could reproduce. But Nick Phoenix himself posted here mentioning it... so I'm baffled.

I used to own Altiverb 6 but switched to Spaces instead of upgrading. I love the sound of Spaces and the simple GUI is an asset IMO... I dislike the browser in the sense that you can't see the patch of the currently loaded patch, but that's a different issue.

But if they can't fix this pre-delay issue in the next month, I'm going to finally and regretfully say goodbye to Spaces.


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## jtnyc (May 21, 2014)

tsalta @ Wed May 21 said:


> What confuses me is that until I just discovered this thread, EW has been telling me they never heard of this issue nor could reproduce. But Nick Phoenix himself posted here mentioning it... so I'm baffled.



That's not surprising at all. Typical East West.


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## Dan Mott (May 21, 2014)

QL Spaces is easy. You spend time worrying about the sound and not worrying about how the parameters are set. Pull the plugin up, try some spaces and there you go. I dig it. 

One that stands out to me is Hamburg Cathedral. Awesome on Strings especially IMO.


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## Casiquire (May 21, 2014)

I stopped using Spaces a while ago too in Reaper. They said the predelay bug was fixed (apparently two years ago judging by the timestamp here!) but a year or so ago I was still having issues and just went 100% MIR instead of bothering. Not the first time I've seen a bug verified by EW getting ignored repeatedly as update after update comes out, unfortunately.


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## Nick Phoenix (May 21, 2014)

Oops


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## Dan Mott (May 21, 2014)

Casiquire @ Thu May 22 said:


> I stopped using Spaces a while ago too in Reaper. They said the predelay bug was fixed (apparently two years ago judging by the timestamp here!) but a year or so ago I was still having issues and just went 100% MIR instead of bothering. Not the first time I've seen a bug verified by EW getting ignored repeatedly as update after update comes out, unfortunately.



I use Reaper and it works now.

Just turn off Multi threaded/buffer settings. It was a new feature added in the plugin. I am not sure exactly what it is called, but just go to the settings in Spaces and you will know what to turn off.


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## StatKsn (May 22, 2014)

My body was almost ready to praise QL Spaces until I've seen endless mentions of the infamous pre-delay bug (they actually re-introduced this glitch to some users in the recent update, but I opted out of installing it). Ouch.


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## tsalta (May 22, 2014)

It's sad to see this happen as they did a great job with the sound quality of Spaces... but their technical people apparently are not on top of getting this fixed. Maybe now, after losing more and more customers someone will start paying attention. I've been complaining about this to tech support for about 2 years and all I've gotten was denials that this exists and claims that I was the only one and they couldn't reproduce it.

Turning of multi-threading is not a fix, it's a work around. And have no idea if it will actually work.


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## Mahlon (May 22, 2014)

Not just a pre-delay bug. When I re-open a saved Cubase project, the wet signal for each instance of Spaces is incorrect. It's much drier than the dial shows it should be. I have to move the wet dial (only slightly) to get my original saved state back. I've sent a support request to EastWest, and, of course, have never heard back from them. Posted it on their forum as well. Pretty major bug to me, and makes Spaces a pain to use at the moment -- so I'm going with Vienna Hybrid these days.

Mahlon


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## Mahlon (May 22, 2014)

tsalta @ Thu May 22 said:


> It's sad to see this happen as they did a great job with the sound quality of Spaces... but their technical people apparently are not on top of getting this fixed. Maybe now, after losing more and more customers someone will start paying attention. I've been complaining about this to tech support for about 2 years and all I've gotten was denials that this exists and claims that I was the only one and they couldn't reproduce it.
> 
> Turning of multi-threading is not a fix, it's a work around. And have no idea if it will actually work.



Yes, it is a bit sad. Spaces is such a great piece of software. Sounds fantastic. It seems like shouting at a wall to get things fixed, though. 

Mahlon


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## Diffusor (May 22, 2014)

Mahlon @ Thu May 22 said:


> Not just a pre-delay bug. When I re-open a saved Cubase project, the wet signal for each instance of Spaces is incorrect. It's much drier than the dial shows it should be. I have to move the wet dial (only slightly) to get my original saved state back. I've sent a support request to EastWest, and, of course, have never heard back from them. Posted it on their forum as well. Pretty major bug to me, and makes Spaces a pain to use at the moment -- so I'm going with Vienna Hybrid these days.
> 
> Mahlon



Yup. Why I stopped using it too. pre delay bug (supposedly fixed). Weird wet mix recall. And sometimes Spaces would even forgot what IR's it had loaded and would load blank. Eastwest should have just stuck with what they did best. Make sample libraries. Not what they do worse. Make software.


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## StatKsn (May 22, 2014)

Mahlon, you are not alone. Someone else has reported the similar situation with Reaper a year ago:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... oblem.html

As for Reaper, "Disable media buffering" and "prevent anticipative FX" under track options might fix the pre-delay glitch, in case forcing single-threaded doesn't work. But I don't know about Cubase.

Diffusor, recalled with blank problem is also existent on Play. It feels like it's terminating even before the saving is done, as it tends to happen when I "save and quit". My solution is to wait a bit before closing the project.



tsalta @ Thu May 22 said:


> Maybe now, after losing more and more customers someone will start paying attention.


What I learned about EW is, unless you are very famous (like as Herbie Hancock) EW might not take your bug report seriously as they think that it doesn't affect sales. Or they really need to believe that the bug is users' fault (because of "an inadequate computer spec" or inexperience) as they keep mentioning it. No, I am not kidding nor bashing. This is what EW have been actually saying for the past 10 years.

Obviously, they kept slashing the price tag by whopping 50% to 90% all the time, but not without reasons. |:


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## clarkus (May 22, 2014)

Can MIR be used with any & all sound libraries, as a plug-in? Or is it for for VSL only?

I also gather from the posts here that it is processor-intensive. I have a pretty new Mac-Pro: 2.6 Ghz Intel Core i7

But only 8 Gb of RAM, and not upgradeable, if that enters the equation.

I wonder what the advice of all you pros is for someone who wants to upgrade from the built-in Logic "Space Designer" Reverb, which has been my go-to for awhile now ... What's a step up that won't bankrupt me?


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## Jdiggity1 (May 22, 2014)

clarkus @ Fri 23 May said:


> But only 8 Gb of RAM, and not upgradeable, if that enters the equation.



Everything is upgradable my friend.
Especially RAM.
Why is it that you think your RAM is not upgradable? Only one working slot?


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## muk (May 23, 2014)

clarkus @ Thu May 22 said:


> Can MIR be used with any & all sound libraries, as a plug-in? Or is it for for VSL only?



MIR can be used for any third party library. But if it is pre-panned (=recorded in position) you'll have to center it first before routing it into MIR. Otherwise you'll run into problems with the spatial positioning inside MIR.


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## clarkus (May 23, 2014)

Hi, JDiggity - My MacBook Pro comes from a period (2012) when Apple decided 8 was all a user should need. I know that most models before and mine can be upgraded. I've looked into "Hackintosh" solutions, and I'm told this is not an option.

My question was about CPU / memory & how much it's taxed by the higher-end reverbs. I assume this is related to how many tracks you are running through the reverb. I am presently working on relatively small (not orchestral) projects.

Thanks for your guidance.


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## 5Lives (May 23, 2014)

Another nice thing about Spaces is that it is much more affordable than MIR or Altiverb. But if there are bugs that make it unusable, I guess you get what you pay for. I have it, but haven't used it extensively, so haven't come across the bugs that were mentioned.


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## Mahlon (May 23, 2014)

Don't get me wrong. I love Spaces. The IRs are fantastic. I want to be able to use it again, someday, when it's fixed.

Mahlon


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## EastWest Lurker (May 23, 2014)

mac4d @ Wed Feb 22 said:


> gsilbers @ Wed Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > ok mr secret insders's group.....
> ...



Here's some info:

"As claimed in the Spaces 1.1.19 installer there is now an option in Spaces settings “Disable multithreaded processing” that should fix the predelay bug if checked. The wet level bug is also fixed in 1.1.19 so the user should make sure they are using the latest version of Spaces.

Two other issues EW is still working on are output level slightly differing each time a project is loaded (NOT the same as wet level bug mentioned above which was much more audible) and pre-delay settings incrementing only in steps of 10 ms."


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## clarkus (May 23, 2014)

Are these the only (or best) options for a high-quality reverb? Or is it just that we are sticking to these makers for this thread?

It's a live issue for me as I have a backlog of cues awaiting some higher-quality mixing / postproduction. And reverb is one of my limiting factors. I've got the plug-ins that are stock with Logic.

I guess to say this another way I am welcoming suggestions for a shopping list. I'm using Logic ProX on a MacBook with OS 10.9.3


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## givemenoughrope (May 23, 2014)

If you save your settings for Spaces as part of a Cubase or Logic channel strip, will it load the same? Maybe that makes no difference


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## EastWest Lurker (May 23, 2014)

clarkus @ Fri May 23 said:


> Are these the only (or best) options for a high-quality reverb? Or is it just that we are sticking to these makers for this thread?
> 
> It's a live issue for me as I have a backlog of cues awaiting some higher-quality mixing / postproduction. And reverb is certainly one of my limiting factors. I've got the plains that are stock with Logic.
> 
> I guess to say this another way I am welcoming suggestions for my shopping list. I'm using Logic ProX on a MacBook with OS 10.9.3



Here is my response and it is totally true: I use a bus with Spaces for each orchestral section and all sections send to a bus with the UAD Plate 140 and a couple of my colleagues thought it was expensive hardware as they said it was the best software reverb sound they have heard.


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## milesito (May 23, 2014)

Thanks, Jay - do you use the close mics with the spaces (i.e. are the spaces used for early reflections or the tail?) I have noticed that the reverb decay in spaces are relatively long in milliseconds...Do you send your orchestral stems to the or the individual instruments to the reverb? Do you use the stereo section reverbs in spaces or a different reverb?


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## clarkus (May 23, 2014)

A lot of posts here that Spaces has anomalies working with Logic. 

So ... I should not worry about that? 

Wondering if there are other options more trouble-free.

The (smaller) price is certainly attractive. But is this a u-get-what-you-pay-for situation?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 23, 2014)

milesito @ Fri May 23 said:


> Thanks, Jay - do you use the close mics with the spaces (i.e. are the spaces used for early reflections or the tail?) I have noticed that the reverb decay in spaces are relatively long in milliseconds...Do you send your orchestral stems to the or the individual instruments to the reverb? Do you use the stereo section reverbs in spaces or a different reverb?



I did the whole "separate instances for ERs and tails" dance for a while and became convinced that it made little or no appreciable impact on the final result for me or anyone else's pieces that they posted. who did it. On the top ten list of things than can make your sample based composition sound better, it is # 827 in my opinion. 

I don't base it on close vs other mics in terms of verb. The wetter the mic and/or the library, the less amount I send to the reverb, the drier, the more.

I send my submixes, which become stems, stems to the QL Spaces instances and a little Plate 140.

I think people WAYYYYY overthink this. The basic rule of audio applies: if it sounds good to you, it is good.


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## Casiquire (May 23, 2014)

I do want to chime in to be fair and say that Spaces does have some incredible reverb. I've just given up on worrying about whether this or that is fixed, and I'm working with all rock-solid programs now anyway.


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## Mahlon (May 24, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri May 23 said:


> Here's some info:
> 
> "As claimed in the Spaces 1.1.19 installer there is now an option in Spaces settings “Disable multithreaded processing” that should fix the predelay bug if checked. The wet level bug is also fixed in 1.1.19 so the user should make sure they are using the latest version of Spaces.
> 
> Two other issues EW is still working on are output level slightly differing each time a project is loaded (NOT the same as wet level bug mentioned above which was much more audible) and pre-delay settings incrementing only in steps of 10 ms."



Thanks Jay. I'm using 1.1.19 and the wet level bug is still happening. You mentioned an output level bug though? Are you talking the overall output of dry and wet signal? Or is just the wet signal output?

Maybe I'm dealing with an output issue while I'm thinking it's a wet signal issue, but I don't think so. All I know is that every time I re-open a project or even load a preset into Spaces, I have to adjust the wet signal knob slightly to get the full reverberation. Once I do that, the reverb is fully there and the signal level of the instrument goes up a few decibels as you would expect.

Mahlon


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## EastWest Lurker (May 24, 2014)

Well if you open a project that had a previous version of Spaces, you probably need to remove the instance and re-instantiate it.

Does it happen in a fresh project?


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## Mahlon (May 24, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat May 24 said:


> Well if you open a project that had a previous version of Spaces, you probably need to remove the instance and re-instantiate it.
> 
> Does it happen in a fresh project?



I've tried just about everything: removing all instances of Spaces and loading them; re-downloading the installer and installing Spaces again, making sure Cubase is pointing to the right VST folder to get the .dll; going back to version 1.1.13...

It happens with new projects, too. Now, maybe it's a Cubase/Spaces conundrum -- and not just Spaces alone. I suspect that a lot of people using Spaces (possibly only with Cubase, not sure) don't realize that their reverb settings have changed when they re-open a project and go about their merry way.

But it's a very simple problem to reproduce. At least on my system. I can't think that any of my signal paths are causing it because I've tested with the most basic one midi track sending to one FX track

Mahlon


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## EastWest Lurker (May 24, 2014)

Well, not here. 

1. I opened a new Logic Pro X project, dragged in a loop, opened a send, and sent a lot of signal to Ql Spaces on a bus. I changed the pre-delay to what you see in Pic. 1. The sound is quire "washy."

2. I quit Logic and re-opened the project. The sound is identical and as you se in Pic 2, the pre-delay is identical.


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## Mahlon (May 24, 2014)

Thanks for the test, Jay. Anyone with Cubase would like to test it as well? You don't need to change the pre-delay; just increase the reverb level so it's fairly saturated. I can provide a file if anyone wants it.

Mahlon


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## tsalta (May 25, 2014)

Thanks Jay,

I know this is an issue you've never had... in fact, I mentioned several Spaces related issues to you over two years ago and you mentioned that you never had these issues, nor was able to reproduce, nor ever heard of them. So consider yourself lucky. :D

To be clear, the "pre-delay" issue is not something that you see, it's something you hear. The knob position never changes. In fact, I suspect this is a preset recall issue. The "pre-delay" is likely due to a different preset loading that has a "pre-delay" built into the IR.... therefore making it easier to notice.

It's quite apparent that many Spaces users are indeed having issues and I completely agree with Mahlon's point that lots of Spaces users probably aren't even aware that they're having a problem. Unless you've memorized how an IR should sound, you have to reload the preset to hear if there's a difference... so basically, you can't trust Spaces, which is why I decided to stop using it until this is fully resolved.

If you're not paying attention, it's VERY easy to miss. How many people do you know that would hear a slight difference in a reverb setting on one or tow instruments in the context of a dense mix... I can assure you, not many.

And to make matters worse, Spaces doesn't show you the path of the currently loaded preset... so when this happens, you can't simply "reload it". You have to hunt down the original preset in their folder structure in order to reload it. A major pita and not a very good UI decision IMHO... I really hope EW decides to finally address this.

I've captured a movie clearly showing the issue... notice the pre-delay knob doesn't move. Again, I suspect that this is a preset recall issue, NOT a pre-delay issue.

http://bit.ly/Spaces_Recall

If people want to test this, simply call up a preset, play a sound and record the result. Then quit your DAW, reload the session and play the sound through spaces again. Does it sound like the recording? In my case, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 25, 2014)

Ah , I see. I entirely concede that since I use generally 4 instances and a UAD Plate 140 and that it sometimes does this and sometimes doesn't that I am not noticing it when it happens. 

Which translates to me as a user, not as an EW rep, that I need not care because if I don't hear it, my clients certainly will not.

However as an EW rep, anything anyone can tell me that will help them still reproduce it, I am happy to pass on.


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## clarkus (May 25, 2014)

So, not to hammer too hard on my question, but it's germane.

What other Reverb plug-ins can you recommend for someone (like me) who wants to upgrade from Logic's stock reverb options? I can afford a few hundred dollars for a noticeable enhancement to my final mixes. I can't afford MIR. 

I just heard Spaces in action @ a friend's studio yesterday. It sounds great, but if there are "years" on a documented anomaly I am interested in going another route.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 25, 2014)

Fine but not all anomalies are created equal


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## tsalta (May 25, 2014)

UAD has some great reverbs. Alitverb is also great and hasn't given me any technical issues. There are also lots of more niche verbs that specialize in certain types of things... I don't recall their names but they shouldn't be hard to find.


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## Rob (May 25, 2014)

clarkus @ 25th May 2014 said:


> So, not to hammer too hard on my question, but it's germane.
> 
> What other Reverb plug-ins can you recommend for someone (like me) who wants to upgrade from Logic's stock reverb options? I can afford a few hundred dollars for a noticeable enhancement to my final mixes. I can't afford MIR.
> 
> I just heard Spaces in action @ a friend's studio yesterday. It sounds great, but if there are "years" on a documented anomaly I am interested in going another route.



waves IR-L? I got it for less than 50$ when it was on sale, and it has a beautiful collection of impulses... no positioning options, but the quality is excellent...


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## tsalta (May 25, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 25 said:


> Ah , I see. I entirely concede that since I use generally 4 instances and a UAD Plate 140 and that it sometimes does this and sometimes doesn't that I am not noticing it when it happens.
> 
> Which translates to me as a user, not as an EW rep, that I need not care because if I don't hear it, my clients certainly will not.
> 
> However as an EW rep, anything anyone can tell me that will help them still reproduce it, I am happy to pass on.



That's not very reassuring... obviously a client wouldn't know that my reverb settings are wrong. But the facts remains that, depending on the situation, an incorrect reverb can completely botch a mix, or at the very least, compromise it. (Did you hear the difference in the movie I attached?... that was not subtle and on drums would completely change the mix) Which means that, regrettably, Spaces is not a reverb I can depend on.

To your point, I sent a Logic project and movie files to EW a long time ago... the problem remains. What saddens me is that it seems EW doesn't really understand the problem nor has made any apparent efforts to fix it. 

The only reason I'm taking the time to discuss it here, is because Spaces sounds so good, and I'm hopeful that a public discussion here might make more people aware of the issue, so that it gets bumped up on EW's priority list and finally gets fixed.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 25, 2014)

Well they WERE apparently able to reproduce it and thought that it was fixed. Did you try turning off the multiprocessor workaround they suggested? 

Personally I only use convolution on orchestral stuff. I much prefer algorithmic verbs like the UAD Lexicon 224 for drums.


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## tsalta (May 25, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 25 said:


> Well they WERE apparently able to reproduce it and thought that it was fixed. Did you try turning off the multiprocessor workaround they suggested?
> 
> Personally I only use convolution on orchestral stuff. I much prefer algorithmic verbs like the UAD Lexicon 224 for drums.



Disabling Multithread Processing sounds more like a workaround than a fix. 

When you find out what "Disabling Multithread Processing" actually means and how it affects performance in the case of Spaces, please let us know. Does it mean all instances go on one CPU? Does it mean that each instance uses one CPU? What happens when you run 5 Spaces instances with this this setting on vs off? How does it affect performance?

As for your mention about using convolution on orchestra only, respectfully, that it besides the point. My example in using a kick drum was for test purposes so you could easily hear it. The fact remains, if Spaces can't reliably recall a reverb setting, then there's a problem that needs to be fixed.


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## benmrx (May 25, 2014)

Has Pheonix Verb or R2 by Exponential Audio been mentioned yet? I would love to hear some feedback from folks using either of these in an orchestral or hybrid mockup scenario. Especially compared to EW Spaces as they're closer to being in the same price range than some of the other options mentioned in this thread.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 25, 2014)

tsalta @ Sun May 25 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sun May 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Well they WERE apparently able to reproduce it and thought that it was fixed. Did you try turning off the multiprocessor workaround they suggested?
> ...



I asked about that yesterday but as it is a weekend and a holiday weekend to boot I have not yet received an answer.

But in the meanwhile why not at least _try_ the workaround and see if there are any negative consequences. If it works who the hell _cares_ if it is a "workaround" or a "fix"?

Like me , you are a longtime Logic user so I know you are used to workarounds


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## Scrianinoff (May 25, 2014)

This would probably fix it: http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Altiverb/sampling.php


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## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2014)

I got a reponse from one of the developers and it seems to jell what I am seeing here in Logic Pro X. Please let me know if turning off the multithreading gets rid of the issue for those of you who are experiencing it.

_"Yes multithreading spreads reverb calculations into multiple CPUs. But when the project contains multiple Spaces instances that are placed on different tracks/busses, the host application will split them into multiple CPU/cores anyway.
One issue that will be clearly visible is that once you turn off multithreading, host CPU meter will go up. That does not mean, that Spaces takes more CPU (it will actually eat about the same). The thing is, that so far (with multithreaded reverb) large part of signal processing was not showing up at all in host CPU meters. That's because the processing was done is separate threads, which host application is not looking at when measuring CPU usage. When multithreading is off, that previously hidden processing cost will now show up in performance meter (since we process all things in host audio thread). Measuring cpu performance with Activity Monitor (osx) or TaskManager (windows) should show about the same or less cpu used when multithreading is off.
From the tests I've done on my system, you can launch about the same number of Spaces instances in the project, before overload artifacts start to appear. The artifacts are different depending on multithreading mode… With multithread on, predelay artifacts will start happening, and overall the host application may become sluggish (in extreme cases of a lot of instances even mouse cursor might slow down).
With multithread off there will be usual drops/clicks that happen when the system cannot handle the session."_


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## milesito (May 26, 2014)

how do you turn multithreading off in QL Spaces? 

Under settings I only see:

-use as a send effect by default
-ignore low memory errors 
output
inpute
active output channels
active input channels
sample rate
audio buffer size


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## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2014)

Under Settings do you not see what is in this pic? Are you using the latest version of Spaces?


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## milesito (May 26, 2014)

Got it. Thanks, Jay...guess it cannot be adjusted in standalone mode...only as a plug in in the DAW.


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## clarkus (May 26, 2014)

I notice Altiverb has been set aside in this thread, with other matters getting attention.

Sweetwater has Altiverb 7 on sale for 529.

Any reason I might regret this purchase?

The reviews all seem very warm. One suggested this is not a product geared for the electronic musician, and I AM making a lot of cues with synths & non-acoustic sound sources.

I'm not sure why this should matter from the POV of making a gorgeous final mix, which is my aim. Perhaps they're referencing (other) reverbs that allow special effects & manipulation of the sound?

If so, I wonder what the contenders are in this price range that I should be considering.


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## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2014)

Here is what I believe to be true: if you load up 12 audio files ro software instrument parts and send them 3 a piece to 4 instances of Altiverb and bounce and then do the same thing with QL Spaces and A-B the 2 bounces, you will answer your own question.


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## clarkus (May 26, 2014)

Well, I could do that, if I owned Spaces and Altiverb. 

Does anyone here have anything to report, negative or positive, about their Altiverb experience?

Thx!


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## MichaelL (May 26, 2014)

I am quite happy with Altiverb. Audioease has many great IR's. But you can get third party IR's for verb's like Bricasti and Lexicon, etc.

In addition, you can purchase Numerical Sound's Hollywood IR's that will work in any number of reverbs, even some of the verbs that come standard in many DAWs. http://numericalsound.com/hollywood_sound_ir.html

I bought it because it has an emulation of Air Lyndhurst.


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## Mahlon (May 26, 2014)

clarkus @ Mon May 26 said:


> Well, I could do that, if I owned Spaces and Altiverb.
> 
> Does anyone here have anything to report, negative or positive, about their Altiverb experience?
> 
> Thx!



I did own a license for Altiverb, but I couldn't wait for them to update to 7. I liked it. Simple to use. Tons of IRs.

But in that price range, have you considered Vienna Suite? You get a whole slew of plug-ins along with the excellent Hybrid Reverb which, as it's name implies, has a two sections: a convolution ER and an algorithmic tail. Such a cool setup for orchestral stuff. Great, tweakable interface.

And have you considered B2 from 2CAudio. I don't have it, but hear rave reviews all over the interweb about it. http://www.2caudio.com/products/b2#_overview

2CAudio's Breeze is also very good reverb. I do have that one.

Can't remember if anyone has mentioned it, but Valhalla is highly regarded and inexpensive.

Mahlon


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## MichaelL (May 26, 2014)

Mahlon @ Mon May 26 said:


> [
> Can't remember if anyone has mentioned it, but Valhalla is highly regarded and inexpensive.
> 
> Mahlon



I use Altiverb 7 for convolution and Valhalla Vintage verb for algorithm.


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## clarkus (May 26, 2014)

Great suggestions - thanks. Appreciate your specificity. I'll look into those.


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## MichaelL (May 26, 2014)

clarkus @ Mon May 26 said:


> Great suggestions - thanks. Appreciate your specificity. I'll look into those.



Note: I don't work for either company. :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (May 26, 2014)

MichaelL @ Mon May 26 said:


> clarkus @ Mon May 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Great suggestions - thanks. Appreciate your specificity. I'll look into those.
> ...



And I don't get a kick back on sales


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## lpuser (Jun 8, 2014)

I have to say that I am very happy with QL Spaces. Have purchased it a few weeks ago and have replaced some other plugins with it on an orchestral recording. Got a very positive feedback from my customer, especially the ACME presets for "fattening" up the sounds are brilliant. Daniel James has a great demo video up for it, which helped me make up my mind and get Spaces.

However, is there a reason why upon ever restart of a song (when freshly loaded), I can hear a startup-glitch as if Spaces needs to "sync" itself. This is with the latest update and with the latest Logic version. 

("Disabling Multithread Processing" is active by the way).

Cheers
Tom


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## Mahlon (Jun 8, 2014)

lpuser @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> I have to say that I am very happy with QL Spaces. Have purchased it a few weeks ago and have replaced some other plugins with it on an orchestral recording. Got a very positive feedback from my customer, especially the ACME presets for "fattening" up the sounds are brilliant. Daniel James has a great demo video up for it, which helped me make up my mind and get Spaces.
> 
> However, is there a reason why upon ever restart of a song (when freshly loaded), I can hear a startup-glitch as if Spaces needs to "sync" itself. This is with the latest update and with the latest Logic version.
> 
> ...



I'm not hearing glitches, but I'm using Cubase on Windows. Sorry, not much help.

By the way, I finally got things sorted with the weird "wet levels" dilemma. Using East West's remove tool and re-installing worked. I believe the remove tool was the key.

Mahlon


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## lpuser (Jun 8, 2014)

Mahlon @ Sun Jun 08 said:


> I'm not hearing glitches, but I'm using Cubase on Windows. Sorry, not much help.



No problem  It sounds like Waves H-Delay when changing presets, like winding up a toy, until everything is finally there. Very short but noticeable. Luckily, it does only happen at first playback and then, never again in the same session.


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## PaulieDC (Mar 5, 2019)

Nick Phoenix said:


> It comes down to sound versus edit ability. Spaces doesn't let you do much. Altivrb and MIR let you do all kinds of things. However, this comes at a sonic price. Altiverb is the king of convolution reverbs, but the impulses mostly sound very lo fi compared to Spaces. This is not an opinion, but a fact that can be verified by using the impulses 100% wet and comparing to the source. MIR is better in this regard but still not stellar. MIR is probably one of the coolest pieces of software around, but Spaces can simply sound better and is more versatile genre wise. I did some tests and mostly preferred Spaces to MIR, but not always. Sometimes I thought MIR had a very nice color to it that improved the source material. The odd thing is that I used 150 k worth of vintage Neuman/Neve gear to record Spaces, so you would think that Spaces would have a lot of color and vibe, and yet the impulses are very clear, and MIR, from the masters of super clean samples, sounds more colored.


And here we are 7 years later and after I upgraded to Spaces II, conversation over, no reason to use anything else IMO.


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## constaneum (Mar 5, 2019)

There are great things with Spaces 2. I have to agree with that. However, there are things that i like with other reverbs as well. Lately, i'm getting fond with Seventh Heaven Pro edition. Sparkverb has some interesting parameters for sound design as well but i found it not that nice for orchestral setup.


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## Kent (Mar 7, 2019)

lpuser said:


> No problem  It sounds like [...] winding up a toy, until everything is finally there. Very short but noticeable. Luckily, it does only happen at first playback and then, never again in the same session.


I'm still getting this with Spaces 1 and the latest Logic. I guess it's just how they work together?


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## lpuser (Mar 12, 2019)

kmaster said:


> I'm still getting this with Spaces 1 and the latest Logic. I guess it's just how they work together?



Not sure why this cannot be solved, seems to be some kind of buffer issue. The same happens with Waves H-Delay, which does introduce weird sounds when you have loaded a song and did not play through at least one bar where H-Delay is inserted.


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