# My Latest Piece. Practicing my melodic chops.



## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 6, 2016)

HELLO!

So I've written a piece for Harp & Piccolo.

...Still here? Woo. 

It's pretty simple. I wanted to basically use 1 idea (straightforward Harmonic background with not too much changing) as I find that I try to cram too many ideas into too short a time period. So this was a test to see what I could do with a single idea. 

Did I succeed?

Any criticism is welcome


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 6, 2016)

Hi Simon!

I am not sure what "success" would determine in this case. If you wonder about the thematic weight of the flute line, I`d say it rather sounds like an underscore melody (would be great background for an RPG game actually). If you want to write a theme melody, you should really count from the other end - how much notes you allow yourself to use at all, and not how much would you cut down from the usual practice. Thematic melody writing is (usually) laconic to death.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 7, 2016)

Hmm well I must admit I wasn't aiming for "underscore" which is a little disappointing. I guess I was just limiting myself to 1 idea and making it interesting for a few minutes without trying to add too much. 

I wasn't trying to develop a theme so much as I wanted a coherent melodic line that didn't wear out its welcome 

Thanks for the input


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## d.healey (Apr 7, 2016)

Hi Simon, nice piece, which flute samples are you using? I really like their quality. I'm unsure which part is the theme, it doesn't seem to be clearly defined. To me it feels like lots of little motifs one after another but they don't really form a single theme. The flute comes in at 0:15 and there is no repetition until 1:35 - that's too long, we've already forgotten 0:15 by then.

Try this formula, write an 8 bar (or less) theme, play it twice, play a variation on the theme twice, play the original theme again twice, end. This will give you something to focus on and you won't be able to deviate too much from your theme. Avoid flowery transitions, try and keep it as clear and defined as possible. Obviously alter the arrangement and orchestration of the theme and variation as necessary to keep the piece interesting.


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## d.healey (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm really keen on this little tune so I've taken the first little phrase and turned it into a 6 bar theme that you could develop further - I might do a little development myself later if I have some time. I just roughly transcribed your piece so the tempo (I think yours is faster) and phrasing won't be perfect but should be close enough.





Edit: I think the second G in the bass would sound better an octave lower actually and would tie in better with the first and last G.


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## KEnK (Apr 7, 2016)

Hi Simon-

I think you succeeded for the most part-
but in fact I think it would be a better piece if you did use an "answer phrase" now and then.
The very first line the piccolo plays would work nicely,
but then again that would be getting away from the "one idea" concept.

Also I wanted to hear a bit more variation from the harp.
Maybe reaching into a lower octave or leaving a bit more space once in a while.
I think varying the accompanying part would lend more to the main melodic explorations
that are already there in the piccolo.
Maybe some more natural tempo curves would add a lot too.

I always like hearing things that have nothing to do w/ film music.
So thanks for that!
This place is getting so one dimensional-
Where's the Epic Percussion? 

Good work

k


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 7, 2016)

Thanks so much for the in depth comments David - I can certainly see where I have faltered. I use VSL samples . Yeah it think some basic 8 bar writing will help me. I am always concerned about being repetitive.

KEnk - I used this as a reference which is why I wanted to not have too much variation with the harp as an accompaniment. I was well aware the entire time that my harp was playing in a very narrow range - I should have explored the possibilities a bit more. My priorities were on the melodic line though I think.


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## KEnK (Apr 7, 2016)

d.healey said:


> I really like their quality. I'm unsure which part is the theme, it doesn't seem to be clearly defined. To me it feels like lots of little motifs one after another but they don't really form a single theme.


Really?
To me it's quite apparent what the theme is
and the fact that you took the time to write a melody based on it shows it's strength.

k


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## KEnK (Apr 7, 2016)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> KEnk - I used this as a reference


Interesting- I think there's to much repetition in that too 
But the repetition does work a bit better in that piece because of the slower tempo.
Imo your piece is much better.
I've already forgotten the reference track, but I can still hear your melody
You win.

Also- I'll add that I'm a guitarist. 
I think a person playing the harp part you've written would use more internal dynamics and play it just a bit softer


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## d.healey (Apr 7, 2016)

KEnK said:


> Really?
> To me it's quite apparent what the theme is


Where do you hear it starting and ending and being repeated? A constant flow of notes is not a theme and that's all I'm really hearing until the repetition near the end.

I simply took the first 10 seconds or so of the flute and added a cadence to create a theme, I hear the most strength in this first 10 seconds, and it's the first bit that sounded like a complete phrase to me.


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## KEnK (Apr 7, 2016)

d.healey said:


> Where do you hear it starting and ending and being repeated?


The theme is 1st heard from 16 secs through 20 secs.
And the whole piece is built on that.
That's what I hear anyway

k


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 7, 2016)

KEnK said:


> Interesting- I think there's to much repetition in that too



Repetition on itself is not a sin, but I also like to rely on more age-proven sources - try this one Simon  (just ignore the imperfect hall sound).


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## Rodney Money (Apr 7, 2016)

Beautiful, tasteful work! What harp did you use? It sounds like it had nice ambience as well.


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## d.healey (Apr 7, 2016)

KEnK said:


> The theme is 1st heard from 16 secs through 20 secs.
> And the whole piece is built on that.
> That's what I hear anyway


I hear a phrase from about 16-25 seconds, but it is never repeated again until near the end. The piece springs from that but the lack of repetition and the lack of a pattern leaves very little for the listener to follow. As musicians we can hold on to the melody and phrasing more easily but it doesn't allow itself time to be internalised by a general audience.

In the inspiration piece - Full metal alchemist - the theme/motif is clearly defined (0:11-0:30) and repeated (0:32-01:00) in a variation with different harmony to add interest, a new variation comes in at 01:00. Each repetition develops and moves further from the simple original melody but the pattern was well established right at the beginning and so it's easy to follow. The whole piece is essentially one theme repeated 3 times.

The piece posted by Vlzmusic is full of repetition, the beginning of each phrase starts with the same little run up. The orchestration also pops in and out of flute + harp then full orchestra and this establishes itself as another pattern. The guitar at the end repeats the same phrase that's been played throughout. After the intro this piece has very little variation and seems to be a rearranged repetition of the main idea.


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## KEnK (Apr 7, 2016)

d.healey said:


> I hear a phrase from about 16-25 seconds, but it is never repeated again until near the end. The piece springs from that but the lack of repetition and the lack of a pattern leaves very little for the listener to follow. As musicians we can hold on to the melody and phrasing more easily but it doesn't allow itself time to be internalized by a general audience.


To each their own I guess.
To my ear that phrase we're talking about is present for practically the whole piece.
It seems to be the kernel, the "one idea" that Simon develops throughout.
Personally I prefer not to short change what a listener can follow.
Music doesn't need to be as dumbed down as it generally is now.
Simon's theme or motive is quite clear.



d.healey said:


> The piece posted by Vlzmusic is full of repetition


There is no "development" of the idea.
I don't think that's what Simon was trying to do

k


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 7, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> What harp did you use?


Hey Rodney! Thanks for the kind comments. I almost always use VSL for all my music. So VSL Harp I in Mir pro 


I certainly didn't have theme & variation or any other formal structure in mind when composing this. A very interesting discussion indeed.


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## markleake (Apr 8, 2016)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I certainly didn't have theme & variation or any other formal structure in mind when composing this. A very interesting discussion indeed.


Thanks Simon for your piece. It is wonderful - I feel inspired by it. I think keeping it simple worked really well. It is also quite interesting to read what others think about it and how they deconstruct what you have written.


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 8, 2016)

Yes, I am sure these discussions have to be frequent on VI-Control.

As of the example I have posted earlier - its exactly the point. Repetitions per se are not sin, what made this tune a fav for millions of people in its time, is the skillful melodic writing, so it does have to do with Simon`s wishes. Melody writing better learned from examples where it was really called for, rather than from style of writing, which is more common today.


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## Rodney Money (Apr 8, 2016)

Vlzmusic said:


> Repetition on itself is not a sin, but I also like to rely on more age-proven sources - try this one Simon  (just ignore the imperfect hall sound).



What is this?


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 8, 2016)

Rodney - its a theme from this cartoon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mystery_of_the_Third_Planet

This composer is rather relevant, cause he was signed for a fat contract in US (can`t recall if it was Hollywood though), but was ultimately forbidden to do so by the Soviet culture ministry.


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## NoamL (Apr 8, 2016)

I agree with David. Adopt a "first listen" philosophy - what does the audience hear & interpret when they hear the tune for the first time. For mockups, this means divorcing yourself from the experience of hearing your work for the 1000th time which is hard...

Also: Audiences are not as hip as composers. Ken, David, and I can hear the way you are referencing back to your starting motif, but audiences only "grab onto" what you're doing if you make it a lot more obvious.

Coming up with strong material is the hard part, so once you have strong material you SHOULD repeat it!

Classical music structure boils down to... Demonstrate strong material, repeat it for emphasis, then develop it to hold the audience's interest.

Demonstrate, repeat, develop.

You are definitely demonstrating something very strong at 0:15-0:21. It's a great tune and I like the way the rhythm makes it more playful. Now repeat and develop!

Just look at for instance the Raider's March. It is the same tune for 2 straight minutes and all that varies is the orchestration. There's no sin in repeating a great tune.


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## JFetter (Apr 8, 2016)

Agree with David. One listen through and I don't remember any theme whatsoever nor can I hum any of it.
I will say the samples sounds good and the general "idea" is there. Keep tweaking this I think it is a great start.


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## bbunker (Apr 8, 2016)

I think your initial idea led you astray - you were trying to stick with 'one idea' and develop it, but what you identified as the one idea (your harmonic pattern) wasn't actually an 'idea' at all - it's like the skeleton of an idea.

I think maybe a good way to develop the way that you use your materials would be to rewrite this, but as a Chaconne or a Passacaglia. They're both basically what you're doing - repeating a progression or ground melody while materials develop over it - but they both require that there be some core GESTURE. Listen to the BWV 582:



Now THAT is a gesture. He spends the next seven minutes working out that gesture in combination with other ideas. The problem you ran into is that your harmonic progression was just a progression, and then all of your ideas in the upper voice felt like the actual gestures - so instead of feeling like the working through of an idea, it sounded like a cavalcade of brief ideas.

Think of it this way - if you took any of those ideas you had in your piece and put them on top of something like Bach's Passacaglia theme, it wouldn't work - because they'd conflict with the main idea.

How about this:



Same concept, different gesture. It's a piece built entirely out of 'donk - da - donk'. He goes 16 minutes and still hasn't run out of ideas on what to do with it!


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 9, 2016)

No worries gents. I get the picture. Thank you kindly for the insight


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