# Neve 1073 preamp to run soft synths through?



## Prockamanisc (May 19, 2017)

Would it be a good idea to get something like a stereo Neve 1073 preamp to run any soft synths through, just to give them a bit of juice? Would something else accomplish this better?


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## Mr Greg G (May 19, 2017)

I wanted to do the very same thing with my synth plugins and my guitar effects (POD). I got my hands on a (mono) Neve 1073LB (the Lunchbox version of the Neve preamp) and made some tests: I recorded my synths/POD in mono with the 1073 and also without. In the end, there was a difference but it was minimal, and it was impossible to tell which was which. So I decided to save my money on this one. It really wasn't worth the expense. I'd have needed a preamp to record vocals, I may would have reconsidered my decision but this wasn't the case  

What you should definitely do is get your hands on a 1073 or even another good pre (like an API 512c, Avalon 737 etc) to run some tests and see if you think it's worth the investment or not for you.


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## Phillip (May 19, 2017)

For that money you can get a real synth. But then you can program it and get hundreds of great sounds with it. Good luck


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## wst3 (May 19, 2017)

Here's what may be a "fun fact"... most best-of-class microphone preamplifiers won't have much effect on recorded material. There is an old wives tale that says the first gain stage adds about 80% of the final character to an audio signal, that's what so much effort goes into the design of that first stage. And it isn't trivial!

If what you are looking for is the infamous (and somewhat vague) "tube sound" or "transformer sound" or just plain old "vintage character" I don't think you'll get that from a well designed preamplifier. Ironic ain't it?

And a big part of that is that the 80% was already imprinted during the recording process. Whether it is highly colored or neutral you will have a difficult time changing that impact.

So how do you get it? You have to override it with something that is grossly distorted (using the classic definition of distortion - a non-linear process that changes the original signal).

These days I'd suggest plugins - more control, more flexibility, more choices... and they will be consistent!

If you have your heart set on hardware (and there is nothing wrong with that) look at some of the el-cheapo "starved tube" preamplifier designs. If you are handy you can build one in an afternoon, they don't have a lot of parts and they don't need high voltage supplies. Of the bunch my favorite (if you can call it that) is the original Bellari Tube Microphone preamplifier - mine said Bellari RP220, I think they are now sold by Rolls Music.

It is a downright awful microphone preamplifier!!! Awful I tell you. I purchased it with the intent of providing a real power supply and running the tubes at their rated voltages. It made it worse<G>! So I put it back to original with the intent of selling it. then I tried it as a DI for bass guitar. It sounds pretty cool for that, not quite so much as a DI for guitar. Then I tried using it as a DI or reamp box for hardware synths. Some took to it, some did not. Finally I tried it as an insert. It isn't all bad, although it is once again on my spring cleaning pile - not sure if I'll really ditch though. Sometimes it is exactly what I am looking for!

There are others, look for a tube preamplifier that claims to "warm up" the sound, and does not require 110VAC for power. If you consider them effects you may find what you are looking for.


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## Prockamanisc (May 19, 2017)

I was thinking that I could treat the soft synth (like Arturia or Massive) like the original source, and then track it in and add that "80%". Would it not work like that?


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## synthpunk (May 19, 2017)

You can certainly run your synths tracks out to hardware and back into your DAW if you want. The results can be mixed depending on the situation, mix, instrument, Etc.

How about a modern, affordable Neve preamp designed by the real Dr. Rupert Neve ?
http://rupertneve.com/products/portico-511-500-series-mic-pre-with-silk/

You would also need a lunch box of some sort to mount themy in.

I have also heard that Warm Audio is working on a Neve clone preamp with their current price range that would be something I would keep an eye on.

Then there is also the virtual world which can be quite good. Lots of very good options...

The UAD Neve 1073 Unison gets allot of raves.
http://www.uaudio.com/uad-plugins/equalizers/neve-1073-collection.html

KUSH UBK Omega N
http://www.thehouseofkush.com/plugins/omega-n

Sonimus BRITSON
http://sonimus.com/products/britson/

SLATE VMR
http://slatedigital.com/virtual-mix-rack/

Waves NLS
http://www.waves.com/plugins/nls-non-linear-summer

Freeware/donationware...

Airwindows Console 4
http://www.airwindows.com/console4/

Running your synth tracks out to guitar amplifiers and re micing them, or using amp simulation plugins, saturation, and tape simulation plugins can also be effective way of accomplishing what you're looking for.


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## Nick Batzdorf (May 19, 2017)

Bill wrote:



> If what you are looking for is the infamous (and somewhat vague) "tube sound" or "transformer sound" or just plain old "vintage character" I don't think you'll get that from a well designed preamplifier. Ironic ain't it?



The one exception is Millennia Media's STT-1, which lets you switch tubes and a transformer into the circuit. You can get different tubes for different characters, or you can use the solid-state circuit. It has a switch between the two (more specifically, it swaps op-amps and tubes).

As an aside, that infamous and somewhat vague "tube sound" can be surprising. Really good tube circuits are often clear and open, not necessarily "saturated." Starved, low-voltage tube gear that was popular in the '90s is a different thing.


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## synthpunk (May 19, 2017)

Millennia is top-notch. Tubes can also be the worst option in some cases depending on the mix, synth, tracks, etc. This coming from a tube lover.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Bill wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gjelul (May 19, 2017)

BAE 1073 Stereo pair here.
A bit pricey but great sounding pres.


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## Karsten Vogt (May 19, 2017)

I have a modded Golden Age Pre 73 MK3 which works great for my Shure SM7B mic. I ran some synths through it. It works okay-ish but the result's not worth the hassle. My advice: save the money and work in the box.


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## wst3 (May 20, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> I was thinking that I could treat the soft synth (like Arturia or Massive) like the original source, and then track it in and add that "80%". Would it not work like that?


OK, that's a slightly different case... all of the audio from Massive (and some from Arturia) is not sampled, but rather generated, so it never went through analog electronics (or probably didn't, who knows?) until it left your computer to hit your monitors.

So, yeah, I guess in this case you might get some useful/usable coloration from a preamplifier, but (hate to be the buzz kill again) if it is a decent preamplifier I don't think you'll get a really audible change. It's going to be very subtle, and I'd imagine most synthesized sounds are already complex enough that the change won't be dramatic, and may not even be useful.

Tough call, because it is (of course) your sensibilities that need to be addressed.

A really great sounding microphone preamplifier should really be a wire with gain! The Neve preamplifiers from their golden age had input, output, and inter-stage transformers, and these would saturate a little bit in the lower octaves, and that does lend a certain sound to whatever you pass through them. They were also class A throughout using only discrete transistors, so there was no cross-over distortion, which isn't terribly musical anyway, and some of them were balanced from front to back (a remarkable engineering trick given the tolerances for passives that were available at the time.) API, and similar designs took a very different approach, most have input transformers, some have output transformers, I don't think any of them have interstage transformers. They also use operational amplifiers made from discrete components (as opposed to an integrated circuit), and most of them do operate as single ended Class A, the driver circuit at the output is often Class A/B.

All of these design decisions do make a difference. And they cost money to implement - much more than a simple (sometimes poorly designed) opamp based preamplifier. I worked for a manufacturer (who will remain nameless) a while back who challenged me to build the cheapest "acceptable" microphone preamplifier I could. I was surprised at how low we could keep the parts cost, but acceptable is a relative term, and I would not have wanted my name associated with it. It worked quite well with a Shure SM-58 or similar dynamic microphone. It sounded pretty bad with most condenser microphones, and was unusable with dynamic ribbon microphones.

I'm not suggesting that one needs to analyze the circuit design to choose a preamplifier, just trying to point out some of the differences. Eyes can glaze over whenever<G>!


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## wst3 (May 20, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> The one exception is Millennia Media's STT-1, which lets you switch tubes and a transformer into the circuit. You can get different tubes for different characters, or you can use the solid-state circuit. It has a switch between the two (more specifically, it swaps op-amps and tubes).



I have their HV-37, love it, won't sell it! The STT-1 is pretty cool, but much like the Doug Fearn design, that tube gain stage is quiet and clean, easily as quiet and clean as any solid state design. Different? Yeah, and it shouldn't be (of course we always say that<G>), but it is. I especially love the tube side on acoustic guitar tracks.

But that is largely a function of my guitars, and my limited microphone locker. I think (oh that I had the money to prove!) that if I had a KM-84 I'd prefer the solid state side. I don't know which I'd like better with a CMC6/MK41.

One of these days I will add all of those to my arsenal, but I'd probably start with the STT-1.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> As an aside, that infamous and somewhat vague "tube sound" can be surprising. Really good tube circuits are often clear and open, not necessarily "saturated." Starved, low-voltage tube gear that was popular in the '90s is a different thing.



Surprising is a good description. It is an effect, whether it was intended as such I know not.

But a really well designed tube circuit is truly a thing of beauty... and I can shorten that sentence! A well designed circuit is a thing of beauty!! I again mention D. W. Fearn as proof!!


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## Living Fossil (May 20, 2017)

In addition to the mentioned ones, there are also two Neve emulations by IK Multimedia, the EQ73 and the EQ81, both with preamp sections. I specially like the EQ81.

However, for your aim i think you should keep an eye on the Klanghelm SDRR, which offers 4 different kinds of saturation/sound sculpting. The controls make it easy to add some additional filtering.

http://klanghelm.com/contents/products/SDRR/SDRR.php


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## Joram (May 20, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> Would it be a good idea to get something like a stereo Neve 1073 preamp to run any soft synths through, just to give them a bit of juice? Would something else accomplish this better?


This is what I regularly do (when I have a Neve 1073 at hand). It's the eq of the 1073 that is very useful to give softsynths a prettier sound.

The Waves Scheps 73 sound very 1073 to my ear (and I have quite some experience with that gear).


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## Karsten Vogt (May 20, 2017)

I also use SDRR and the IKMM EQ81. SDRR is pretty versatile and produces a lovely or very dirty, grungy sound for a very cheap price.


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## Prockamanisc (May 20, 2017)

So I'm thinking I'd be better off spending my money on something like a Massive Passive, or some other tube-based hardware if I wanted to warm this up, since it's really the EQ and/or the tubes that would be making the difference. Would that be a better option?


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## chimuelo (May 20, 2017)

Oh Lord you don't need a pre costing several thousand dollars.
I bought Radial Space Heaters for 16 channels but only because it was for a live rig.

You can get a vintage Bellari RP562 with matched RCA NOS/NIB Tubes for a glorious greasy grit for recording.
I modded a pair of them and kept one for post Comp/Main Outs on our PA and it is that good.


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## Phillip (May 21, 2017)

Another hing to consider is reamp. Play the softy the through guitar amp an record that.


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## Joram (May 21, 2017)

Phillip said:


> Another hing to consider is reamp. Play the softy the through guitar amp an record that.


Or a pair of Roland cubes. I have used a small pa to match early reflections of the tracks with recorded instruments and soft synths.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (May 21, 2017)

Unless there's a very specific reason why you need a 1073, I would go with a plugin. Of course it's not the same but it's just as usable as hardware. One is not better than the other so if you're looking for a general sound, you can get it with either but save $$ with plugins.


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## Phillip (May 22, 2017)

Bass amps are great fro reamping large size string instruments - cello and bass.


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## Divico (May 22, 2017)

You can als try amp sims or just speaker IRs to give the synth a more analogish/real world sound


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## mc_deli (May 22, 2017)

1073LB here... great... as a preamp. To reamp - nah. 
As others have said: look at summing boxes, look at stereo character boxes (Kush etc.), look at stereo FX (I have the Eventide boxes for that), look at guitar FX (Radial stuff great for i/o solutions), look at desks if you want more routing options.... even look at old tape machines and tape echo... 800 quid would get you an Echorec or something like that... now that would be worth leaving the box for.


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## Phillip (May 22, 2017)

You can build your own spring reverb unit for peanuts. Amazing on synths, amazing on softsynths. Take a break from software hell...


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## Prockamanisc (May 22, 2017)

Reamping would be an awesome thing if I had a bigger space. Building a spring reverb would be amazing if I had a decent workshop. This is giving me a lot of options, I really appreciate it. It seems like a 1073 wouldn't be that great of a purchase for this purpose.


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## gsilbers (May 22, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> Oh Lord you don't need a pre costing several thousand dollars.
> I bought Radial Space Heaters for 16 channels but only because it was for a live rig.
> 
> You can get a vintage Bellari RP562 with matched RCA NOS/NIB Tubes for a glorious greasy grit for recording.
> I modded a pair of them and kept one for post Comp/Main Outs on our PA and it is that good.



interesting! 
not bad at all. i havent seen that before and i cannot find videos to demo and the gearslutz example didnt host the wavs any longer. :(


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## gsilbers (May 22, 2017)

I still cant belive we are in 2017 looking for the same gear from the 70s and 80s. Its like time stood still and there was never ever anything even remotly good or better than 40 decades old tehcnology like neuman mics and neves and the other few brands / specific equipment. its like there where some hits made during that time and everyone said.. ok.. that sounds fine.. lets keep using this sound forever. 
we should do the same for sample libraries and only use those old giga studio libraries which has that nice grit of pentium 3 intel chips  
mostly saying cause what i see in gearlsutz, companies putting out clones with the 73 on them and trying hard not to say "neve" anywhere. and seeing a ton of gear out there but still the high end poeple would look down to cheaper gear.


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## chimuelo (May 22, 2017)

In all honesty I'd go with new gear from Radial for anything needing some good grit.
They have 500 Series, Pedals and mixers that sound fantastic and have plenty of control for voltage options, drive amount, etc.

Bought a Plexitube for a Jon Lord Hammond sound didn't like it but my guitarist used it and it was a great way to have a great clean sound using true bypass then go to a Marshall JCM with a convincing sound.

The Radial Space Heater is fantastic for live samples, soft synths, FPGA and DSP based units.
I get all audio from the PC via FireWire or ADAT. then to the Radial, out to Stage Monitor and FOH.


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## sostenuto (May 22, 2017)

Neve VXS @ Plugin Alliance at large discount NOW ! Free 14-day fully functional Trial too.

https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products/bx_console.html


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## davidgary73 (May 22, 2017)

Try the free Acqua plugs @ https://www.acustica-audio.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=297

These few tools is enough to give you the "mojo" that you need. 

Do demo the rest of the Acqua plugins (30 days trial) as they all provide different colours


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## sostenuto (May 22, 2017)

davidgary73 said:


> Try the free Acqua plugs @ https://www.acustica-audio.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=297
> 
> These few tools is enough to give you the "mojo" that you need.
> 
> Do demo the rest of the Acqua plugins (30 days trial) as they all provide different colours



Everyone has these ... _don't they ??_


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## gsilbers (May 22, 2017)

chimuelo said:


> In all honesty I'd go with new gear from Radial for anything needing some good grit.
> They have 500 Series, Pedals and mixers that sound fantastic and have plenty of control for voltage options, drive amount, etc.
> 
> Bought a Plexitube for a Jon Lord Hammond sound didn't like it but my guitarist used it and it was a great way to have a great clean sound using true bypass then go to a Marshall JCM with a convincing sound.
> ...




im like everyday checking gear out and didnt see the space heater. an 8 ch tube summing 1U box thats also can do individual channels is very cool. 
the price for 2 units to be 16 channels would make it get to where rupert neve summing box territory. but this one has individual distortion so its neat. 
for daws i guess i could route the main channels like stings, brass, perc and winds to process in one pass and a second pass for synths, efx, guitars and bass. very interesting.


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## chimuelo (May 23, 2017)

Cascaded 32 channels was my original idea.
But sub mixing in the DAW or in audio interface like RME/Scope/UAD is fine.
Use 2 x Custom made DB25s from LA Audio.
They make whatever length you order.


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## gsilbers (May 23, 2017)

can you route 2 different stereo signals from the DAW into one stereo channel input. (1 from the d sub and another from the 1/4)?
So basically transforming it into a 16 channel summing box. (but not individual stereo returns of course)
Or it only lets you use the d sub OR the 1/4 input?


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## chimuelo (May 23, 2017)

Any jacks are hot and simultaneous.
Insert Jacks on every channel too for external effects, pedals or ASIO from DAW.


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