# Favorite Superior Drummer SDX?



## dyross (Jul 18, 2022)

Hi folks,

I've just acquired SD3 (thanks @UDun for pleasant transaction) and my GAS won't let me wait before obsessing over which SDX(s) to eventually add.

From my EZD experience, I know that not all expansions are created equal, and the more recent ones have significantly more content for the price. Do they tend to be more deeply sampled, or just more kit pieces? So I'm curious to hear what folks think are the best / favorites?

I mostly make vintage-inspired progressive-ish rock, and if there's a drum sound I'm most going for, it would be Mattias Olsson's from Änglagård (as discussed in a previous post). In that thread, it's pointed out that "The Metal Foundry" is recorded in the same studio - but does it still hold up being only 20% the size of newer SDX releases, and is it good for non-metal?

I've also seen some complaints on other forums about lack of round robins on some of the SDX releases. Anyone run into this, have advice on ones to skip?

Thanks,
David


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## Zanshin (Jul 18, 2022)

Death and Darkness is my favorite by a country mile (not just for metal, I feel like it's very versatile). I own that, Decades, and Legacy of Rock. 

I think you should be able to find Metal Foundry used for a good price, but I can't comment on it's quality or suitability.


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## Mike Stone (Jul 18, 2022)

The Yamaha Custom drum set in Death (from Death and Darkness) SDX library is excellent, and a finely sampled drum kit overall. Be warned though, as this is a metal library all the presets suck IMO. If you spend some time tweaking the drum kit, it will sound great for rock (and most other genres). My other favorite is the main drum kit from the Marble Room in Rooms of Hansa (which also has great pop and Beck-type rock drum kits on the dryer side - named under Vocal Booth).

Anyways, there are bound to be different answers here, as people have varying tastes and own different SDX releases. I haven't tested the last couple of rock SDX releases though, but the combination of Death and Room of Hansa is great, as you get some additional useful snares and splash cymbals from Death that can be used for the Marble Room kit.

I know many like Decades, but I'm not a fan of that one - esp. for rock. The jazz kits are very good, but you could get those in the cheaper Big Band EZX library.

In general you can ignore the stock library sounds, I haven't even installed those ones on my SSD. Better to use 2-3 SDX releases from 2019 and later, as they are overall superior IMO.


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## dyross (Jul 18, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Death and Darkness is my favorite by a country mile (not just for metal, I feel like it's very versatile). I own that, Decades, and Legacy of Rock.


Thanks, sounds promising! I probably won't get Decades, but how does D&D compare to LoR?



Zanshin said:


> I think you should be able to find Metal Foundry used for a good price, but I can't comment on it's quality or suitability.


Yeah, there are some good prices available. I'll try to find more reviews / demos.



Mike Stone said:


> The Yamaha Custom drum set in Death (from Death and Darkness) SDX library is excellent, and a finely sampled drum kit overall. Be warned though, as this is a metal library all the presets suck IMO. If you spend some time tweaking the drum kit, it will sound great for rock (and most other genres). My other favorite is the main drum kit from the Marble Room in Rooms of Hansa (which also has great pop and Beck-type rock drum kits on the dryer side - named under Vocal Booth).
> 
> Anyways, there are bound to be different answers here, as people have varying tastes and own different SDX releases. I haven't tested the last couple of rock SDX releases though, but the combination of Death and Room of Hansa is great, as you get some additional useful snares and splash cymbals from Death that can be used for the Marble Room kit.
> 
> I know many like Decades, but I'm not a fan of that one - esp. for rock. The jazz kits are very good, but you could get those in the cheaper Big Band EZX library.



Thanks for the tips.



Mike Stone said:


> In general you can ignore the stock library sounds, I haven't even installed those ones on my SSD. Better to use 2-3 SDX releases from 2019 and later, as they are overall superior IMO.


Out of curiosity, could you ellaborate on what you don't like about stock libraries / pre-2019 SDX releases? I have noticed disk space allocation changed significantly recently (new SDX released nearly 200GB!), but curious if Toontrack has changed anything about their recording techniques (e.g. # articulations, round robins, velocity layers etc.) that makes them generally better?

I guess the mixer presets for SD3 SDX releases won't have the new effects in SD3?


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## Zanshin (Jul 18, 2022)

dyross said:


> Thanks, sounds promising! I probably won't get Decades, but how does D&D compare to LoR?


Both are great! I feel like LoR is probably peerless when it comes the classic rock kits.


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## dyross (Jul 18, 2022)

I’ve been debating whether or not to keep EZD3 for the sound library. If I get Hansa, is EZD3 soundset totally redundant?


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## dyross (Jul 18, 2022)

Also, Fields of Rock seems to not get the same love as other recent releases. Is it too new and not as commonly owned, or actually not as good?


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## Mike Stone (Jul 19, 2022)

dyross said:


> Out of curiosity, could you ellaborate on what you don't like about stock libraries / pre-2019 SDX releases? I have noticed disk space allocation changed significantly recently (new SDX released nearly 200GB!), but curious if Toontrack has changed anything about their recording techniques (e.g. # articulations, round robins, velocity layers etc.) that makes them generally better?
> 
> I guess the mixer presets for SD3 SDX releases won't have the new effects in SD3?


The stock library isn't as deeply and nuanced sampled, often the drums aren't hit quite hard enough, and the overall sound quality (still very good) doesn't match the level of the SDX libraries from 2019 and onwards.

My #1 choice for rock is the Marble Room drum kit (combined with samples from Death). It has a big and musical sound, it's deeply sampled, and just fits my mixes well (unlike the 80s drum kit from Decades). Legacy of Rock seems like a variation on that, so I've stayed with Rooms of Hansa. Fields of Rock is the latest library, so probably fewer own that one so far.

Btw., if you want brushes and other specialities, then you'll still need the core sound set. These rock SDX libraries typically don't have those things. Unless you get Decades or Big Band EZX, which have great jazz kits. On a side note, the Orchestral SDX is outstanding.


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## ed buller (Jul 19, 2022)

Hansa is awesome

best

e


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## kevinh (Jul 19, 2022)

Hansa and Fields of Rock are my favorites. I bought a value pack (3 Sdx custom bundle) on sale from best service. I’m still looking for third SDX beside two I mentioned above but not convinced yet which one I want next.


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## GtrString (Jul 19, 2022)

I added the Decades SDX because it added things the main library didn't have, but I looove the George Massenburg kits in SD3. You can do anything with those as a starting point.

Honestly, I don't feel that any other SDX's than Decades and the Orchestral one add anything substantial to SD3. It's already so well done, that they probably have a hard time finding ideas for new packs.


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## dyross (Jul 19, 2022)

Ok, seems the consensus is: "get anything since Decades" 

Thanks folks!


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## Dewdman42 (Jul 19, 2022)

I don't know really, I think they are all pretty great, depends on the sound you want. I haven't had all of them ever and so how can I say which is the best? I don't think there is any consensus, everyone has their favorites. They are all superb relative to pretty much all other drum sample libraries IMHO. It just depends on the sound you want. check out the audio demos. 

what I currently have above and beyond the factory drum kits that came with SD3: NewYork Studios vol 1-3, Metal Foundary and a couple of EZX expansions. I want to add Rock Foundary and Legacy of Rock when they go on sale as well as the Orchestral Percussion SDX. But honestly they are all good and you can get a lot of mileage from just taking what you have and working with the mixer and FX to produce the sound you want. Aside from that I say if you hear an audio demo that is exactly the sound you want, then you know what to get. They are all great packs...


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## madfloyd (Jul 19, 2022)

There is no SDX called Hansa (or Room of Hansa) that I can see. Is it sold under another name?

EDIT: nevermind, I had the 'hide the products I already own' checked. I didn't realize I own this, my bad!


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## dyross (Jul 19, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> There is no SDX called Hansa (or Room of Hansa) that I can see. Is it sold under another name?
> 
> EDIT: nevermind, I had the 'hide the products I already own' checked. I didn't realize I own this, my bad!



Now that's a happy accident


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## keepitsimple (Jul 19, 2022)

Hansa. Used to be Decades, but nahhh can’t touch “the” Hansa


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## oboemaroni (Jul 19, 2022)

Does Hansa have towel damped kits? Was disappointed there's only one in Decades.


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## Mike Stone (Jul 20, 2022)

oboemaroni said:


> Does Hansa have towel damped kits? Was disappointed there's only one in Decades.


Yes, several. They sound great. Also the drier and more intimate kits from the Vocal Booth room are spot on IMO.


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## oboemaroni (Jul 20, 2022)

Looks like I got the wrong one!


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## Vita (Jul 20, 2022)

Hansa as well, but it kills me they decided to only include two or three toms per set! Yes, you can de-tune and add more, but it’s just so clunky and unnatural. They were so close to getting it perfect. Argh!!!


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## Mike Stone (Jul 20, 2022)

Vita said:


> Hansa as well, but it kills me they decided to only include two or three toms per set! Yes, you can de-tune and add more, but it’s just so clunky and unnatural. They were so close to getting it perfect. Argh!!!


I agree to a degree, but the Marble Room drumkit has 3 toms + 4 octobans. More than enough IMO, and it's a great room for a full-sounding rock drum kit. You can also mix up the cymbals with something from another library, if necessary. For a more intimate dry pop/rock style (Vocal Booth), you don't really need a huge drum kit. The other two rooms are superfluous for me anyways.

For a huge kit with lots of everything, the Yamaha Custom kit from the Death library is great (haven't tried Fields of Rock though).


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## Mike Stone (Aug 22, 2022)

I've gotten a bit curious about the Fields of Rock SDX. Does Fields of Rock bring anything new to the table, in terms of realism, detail and overall sound quality for rock/pop - for those that have this library?

How does it compare to Death (from Death & Darkness) and Rooms of Hansa for rock/pop? I'm very familiar with both these libraries. The Marble Room drum kit is my #1 choice, but I recently made a custom Death drum kit with the Sonor bass drums (stacked w/articulation hit 2), Gretch toms, and a stacked snare drum. Sounds great!


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## madfloyd (Aug 22, 2022)

I'm having a tough time finding any Toontrack drum kit that sounds 'real' enough to me - or at least based on what I'm searching for... I like snappy, hard hitting for prog rock (e.g. Porcupine Tree etc). The Toontrack libs that I've tried so far (Hansa, FoR) just seem soft.

Any tips?


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## dyross (Aug 22, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> I'm having a tough time finding any Toontrack drum kit that sounds 'real' enough to me - or at least based on what I'm searching for... I like snappy, hard hitting for prog rock (e.g. Porcupine Tree etc). The Toontrack libs that I've tried so far (Hansa, FoR) just seem soft.
> 
> Any tips?


My guess is there’s some MIDI programming and mixing tips you can do. Have you seen this video (plus his channel has other good stuff):


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## Mike Stone (Aug 22, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> I'm having a tough time finding any Toontrack drum kit that sounds 'real' enough to me - or at least based on what I'm searching for... I like snappy, hard hitting for prog rock (e.g. Porcupine Tree etc). The Toontrack libs that I've tried so far (Hansa, FoR) just seem soft.
> 
> Any tips?


I get what you are saying. These drum kits need a lot of fiddling and work to get "that" sound, but I'm very happy with the drum sound I have now. Also the presets are only a starting point IMO, and are pretty useless on their own.

If you have the Death (and Darkness) library, try what I explained in my previous post, and use the 6.5x14 Tama Bell Brass snare, stacked for instance with the 6.5x14 Drumcraft Bell Brass. Or use the same snare stack with the main Marble Room drum kit, however be aware of possible boomy frequency spikes when stacking. 

The issue with the Marble Room drum kit however, is that the toms aren't hit quite hard enough, so I make them more punchy by using Transient and Punch Exciter 180. I also use Transient on the hi-hat, to make the attack more articulated. I sometimes also use Tape Simulation on the snare top channel for more punch.

My favorite RoH snare is 6.5x14 Masshoff Twin Shell (can be stacked with 5.5x14 Masshoff), but I use the envelope function to slightly reduce the release time (I also do this on the toms), and make sure the snare bottom channel isn't too loud. Then you have to mix the different channels properly, use EQ when necessary, and don't mess up the compression values. It's definitely a bit of work, but it can be done. Hope this will help!


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## Kevin63101 (Aug 22, 2022)

I own all of the SDX libraries except D&D and Orchestral (which I may order at some point). I strongly feel SD3 is the best single system having owned many many other libraries and formats.

I'd recommend getting the newer libraries released in the past 2-3 years. Be aware these are huge in terms of storage requirements, but well worth the quality:

Fields of Rock
Death and Darkness (I can't comment)
Legacy of Rock*
Rooms of Hansa
Decades*

Of the older libraries, my favorites are
Roots volumes 1 & 2 (detailed jazz oriented) and NY Studios vol 1.

* my top favorites for classic rock / prog rock / pop / jazz fusion / funk music. To be clear, I fully enjoy and regularly use any of the other newer SDX libraries I own.


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## Kevin63101 (Aug 22, 2022)

kevinh said:


> Hansa and Fields of Rock are my favorites. I bought a value pack (3 Sdx custom bundle) on sale from best service. I’m still looking for third SDX beside two I mentioned above but not convinced yet which one I want next.


From a cost perspective, choose a newer library with your value pack credit as they are normally excluded from sales discounts for the first several years after release. Older titles can be purchased during sales promotions.


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## Kevin63101 (Sep 20, 2022)

Add the new *Hitmaker *SDX to the list!!

Just got it ... great library with versatile 80s 90s acoustic kits plus 400 classic electronic sounds. Produced / mixed by Hugh Padgham.









Hitmaker SDX


Drums, straight from the man who defined the sound of the ’80s: Hugh Padgham.




www.toontrack.com





A new favorite, definitely in my top 5 SDX libraries.


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## carlc (Sep 20, 2022)

Thanks for the great recommendations. I'm taking notes and building my wishlist for future SDX purchases. I think the last one I bought was Metal Foundry in 2015. It probably shipped on floppy disks back then  

Since I am still on SD2 (having missed the SD3 upgrade window), I'm planning to wait until SD4 is released before making any more purchases. Any rumors of an SD4 release now that their EZD3 product has shipped?


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## Scottyb (Sep 21, 2022)

Just saw the video for the Hitmaker SDX pop up on my YouTube feed and my jaw literally flew wide open (at 2:30 A.M. lol) when I heard that Phil Collins sound and holy smokes does it sound good! Just wow!! This is awesome!!

If someone makes a Power Station present I’m gone. 😋


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## Braveheart (Sep 21, 2022)

carlc said:


> Thanks for the great recommendations. I'm taking notes and building my wishlist for future SDX purchases. I think the last one I bought was Metal Foundry in 2015. It probably shipped on floppy disks back then
> 
> Since I am still on SD2 (having missed the SD3 upgrade window), I'm planning to wait until SD4 is released before making any more purchases. Any rumors of an SD4 release now that their EZD3 product has shipped?


It could mean you will have to wait for years…


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## madfloyd (Sep 21, 2022)

I listened to all the examples of the new Hugh PadGham (Hit Maker) SDX. Yes, the Phil Collins toms are unmistakable. So much so that I'd be afraid to use them lol.

So my impression is that it's very good, but certainly not modern sounding and I don't know how much I'd use it. I'd certainly play with those toms though if only once!


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## Mike Stone (Sep 21, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> I listened to all the examples of the new Hugh PadGham (Hit Maker) SDX. Yes, the Phil Collins toms are unmistakable. So much so that I'd be afraid to use them lol.
> 
> So my impression is that it's very good, but certainly not modern sounding and I don't know how much I'd use it. I'd certainly play with those toms though if only once!


As usual, none of the presets are particularly useful IMO, other than as a starting point for making your own presets.

I like Hitmaker SDX a lot. All the kits are very interesting, esp. the Sting/Storyteller kit, but just turn down some of the room tone, and add more reverb effect to the snare drum instead. That makes it sound less dated to me.

As far as the previous one, Fields of Rock, even though the production here is phenomenal, some of the drum kits are just a bit too weird for me. Which makes sense I guess, for a company that has already released a huge number of drum libraries. You either get huge sounding drums, with heavy tape saturation (?) baked into the sound (Stormtrooper kit), weird trashy cymbals etc. That said, the studio kit and the live room kits sound great. There is a huge collection of snare drums too, some very interesting choices here.

My favorite SD3 drum kit for rock/pop is still the Marble Room drum kit in Rooms of Hansa, if you add a more punchy snare drum and a splash from another library. For something more subtle, you can use the dampened toms and a deeper tuned snare drum.


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## madfloyd (Sep 21, 2022)

What do you guys think about the EZX Big Stage?


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## carlc (Sep 21, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> It could mean you will have to wait for years…


Very true. I bought SD2 in 2013, so I’ve waited 9 years already. At least I’m good at something 

I believe the initial release of “dfh Superior” was 2004, followed by SD2 in 2008, then SD3 in 2017, with major EZD releases in between. If the more recent trend holds, SD4 would be due for release around 2026. Hopefully I’m wrong on that and SD4 comes sooner  but I have seen no mention of a possible release date.


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## Kevin63101 (Sep 21, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> What do you guys think about the EZX Big Stage?


Didn't buy EZX Big Stage. Too wet for me. If I wanted this sound, I'd achieve it with reverb or blowing up room mics on one of the SDX libraies with reverberant rooms.

Some of the EZX are great and unique, but the presets have room ambience baked into the samples whereas the SDX gives you multiple sample sets for each mic. In general, if you like to tweak ambience, buy SD3/SDX.


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## David Kudell (Sep 22, 2022)

The demos for Hitmaker SDX sound amazing. I think that Sting kit snare sound from 10 Summoners Tales is probably one of my favorite snare sounds ever, so I’m going to have a hard time resisting.


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## Mike Stone (Sep 23, 2022)

The Stewart Copeland/reggae drum kit in Hitmaker sounds absolutely amazing. You have to tweak the presets quite a bit to get the full potential, but man does it sound good. It also has one of the best snares from Toontrack so far IMO - 5x14 Tama Imperialstar.

The New World drum kit is also brilliant, with great sounding toms and cymbals. All 6 drum kits are recorded in the same room, so the library size is fairly "modest" by Toontrack standards - considering what you get.


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## BezO (Sep 23, 2022)

I only have Hansa and Orchestral Perc. I bought the SD3 / Orchestral Perc bundle specifically for the Orchestral Perc kit. Sounds great, it's versatile and I dig that it can be multi outed.

The stock kits are cool IMO, and were enough for me until I heard Hansa. For my needs, it was the 1st to add something I couldn't get from the stock kits. I now use them almost exclusively for my acoustic kit needs.

I want Decades but haven't been able to justify the purchase. Hitmaker is also interesting. The Reggae Rock kit is right up my alley. I might grab the bundle and sit on the 3rd option for a future release.

I have a bunch of EZXs though. Much more unique releases.


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## Ian Dorsch (Sep 23, 2022)

David Kudell said:


> The demos for Hitmaker SDX sound amazing. I think that Sting kit snare sound from 10 Summoners Tales is probably one of my favorite snare sounds ever, so I’m going to have a hard time resisting.


I feel 100% the same way. I also adore the drum mix on The Soul Cages, and it seems like they've got that pretty well dialed in too.


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## sumskilz (Sep 24, 2022)

The drummer who played the samples on each SDX has a big effect on the final result. Norman Garschke is a great a player with a lot of finesse, but even his highest dynamics are way too light to emulate the typical metal or hard rock drummer, which is why you see a lot of complaints from people not being able to get the sound they want from the libraries he played (including in this thread). Yet, his finesse makes him great for getting the sound of drummers like Phil Collins, Vinnie Colaiuta, and Manu Katche in the recent Hitmaker SDX.

Personally, I like the SDXs that Norman Garschke played because he hits similar enough to me that it feels natural for me to play those SDXs on electronic drums. In contrast, I recently bought Fields of Rock, which is great for what it is, but I will never use it, and will no doubt sell it when the 30 days is up. The reason being, is that no matter what, it sounds and feels like bashing hard with big sticks. Lowering the velocity doesn’t solve the problem, in that it doesn’t turn into the MF to FF level of a drummer who typically plays with a more moderate touch. For reference, drummers I like a lot and so have probably influenced me a fair bit are Clyde Stubblefield, Carlton Barrett, Jim Hodder, Joey Waronker, Harvey Mason, Sly Dunbar, James Gadson, and Steve Gadd. To reiterate, I’m not saying Fields of Rock is bad. It would work quite well for certain types of music that I like, but am not personally interested in creating.

The take away, is that I recommended paying attention to who played the samples when considering an SDX. If possible, try to find some examples of them playing an acoustic kit, because a lot of the sound is in the hands. As a side note, the so-called heavy hitting drummers of the 1970s, like Bonham, were not hitting hard by today's standards.


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## Mike Stone (Sep 30, 2022)

sumskilz said:


> The drummer who played the samples on each SDX has a big effect on the final result. Norman Garschke is a great a player with a lot of finesse, but even his highest dynamics are way too light to emulate the typical metal or hard rock drummer, which is why you see a lot of complaints from people not being able to get the sound they want from the libraries he played (including in this thread). Yet, his finesse makes him great for getting the sound of drummers like Phil Collins, Vinnie Colaiuta, and Manu Katche in the recent Hitmaker SDX.
> 
> Personally, I like the SDXs that Norman Garschke played because he hits similar enough to me that it feels natural for me to play those SDXs on electronic drums. In contrast, I recently bought Fields of Rock, which is great for what it is, but I will never use it, and will no doubt sell it when the 30 days is up. The reason being, is that no matter what, it sounds and feels like bashing hard with big sticks. Lowering the velocity doesn’t solve the problem, in that it doesn’t turn into the MF to FF level of a drummer who typically plays with a more moderate touch. For reference, drummers I like a lot and so have probably influenced me a fair bit are Clyde Stubblefield, Carlton Barrett, Jim Hodder, Joey Waronker, Harvey Mason, Sly Dunbar, James Gadson, and Steve Gadd. To reiterate, I’m not saying Fields of Rock is bad. It would work quite well for certain types of music that I like, but am not personally interested in creating.
> 
> The take away, is that I recommended paying attention to who played the samples when considering an SDX. If possible, try to find some examples of them playing an acoustic kit, because a lot of the sound is in the hands. As a side note, the so-called heavy hitting drummers of the 1970s, like Bonham, were not hitting hard by today's standards.


Having spent more time with Hitmaker SDX, I miss some of the drums being hit a bit harder by Garschke, especially the snares. It's *almost* there, but not quite getting that energetic punchy rock sound, and lacking some dynamical contrast from soft to hard. Otherwise, the overall nuance and consistency with the different articulations are done better here than any other SDX expansion I've tested so far.

However, some of the snares (esp. the higher pitched ones) and the Copland and Collins drum kits are played quite dynamically - incl. for rock. The best snares in this SDX beat anything else I've tried so far from Toontrack, in terms of realism and playability.

The guy who played on Death (from Death & Darkness), Sean Reinert, got it right IMO. The regular Tama Bell Brass snare here works well with other SDX libraries, like Rooms of Hansa.

The drummer on Fields of Rock hit the drums harder, which is great for rock, but in this case the rim shots don't work as well IMO, both for the snares and toms. When using rim shots with the toms, it sounds like you are missing the drum head, and hitting the rim instead. Most of the snare rim shots kinda sound like the wires are turned off.

So Hitmaker SDX gets 9-9.5/10 for me. I would've given it 10/10, if the snares consistently had a bit more punch to them. You can use Transient and Tape Distortion to bring out some more punch and fullness, but you can't recreate something that's not there in the samples. Also most of the bass drums aren't that useful IMO, but there are a couple of very good ones.

Edited.


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## madfloyd (Sep 30, 2022)

It occurred to me that we could be sharing our own presets here (assuming there was interest). There's so much tweaking that is possible, I'd love to hear the creations that some of you have come up with...


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## Zanshin (Sep 30, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> So Hitmaker SDX gets tops 9/10 for me. I would've given it 10/10, if the snares had a bit more punch to them. You can use Transient and Tape Distortion to bring out some more punch and fullness, but you can't recreate something that's not there in the samples. Also most of the bass drums aren't that useful IMO, but there are a couple of very good ones.


Your favorite is Death & Darkness then? I am tempted by Hitmaker, especially that reggae kit. I appreciate you taking the time to post your experiences with it!


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## Mike Stone (Sep 30, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Your favorite is Death & Darkness then? I am tempted by Hitmaker, especially that reggae kit. I appreciate you taking the time to post your experiences with it!


The reggae kit is fantastic, highly recommended. The high-tuned snare drum in the reggae kit is so well programmed and played, you can pretty much do anything with it. Suddenly I have these The Police-inspired songs playing in my head, that I have to put down in Logic sometime..lol. 

Also the Hitmaker midi groove collection is very sophisticated and comprehensive. You can get a lot of creative ideas and inspiration from here.

For rock I prefer Rooms of Hansa (esp. Marble Room), but you'll probably want to add a more punchy snare and a splash cymbal - I use Death SDX for "spare parts" (it has a more traditional room sound than Darkness, which I don't use). Obviously taste differ, so this is just my two cents...


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## fakemaxwell (Sep 30, 2022)

Oh no...a Stewart Copeland kit...who's the patron saint of not spending money? I have some prayers to offer up...


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## carlc (Sep 30, 2022)

fakemaxwell said:


> Oh no...a Stewart Copeland kit...who's the patron saint of not spending money? I have some prayers to offer up...


As long as you’re offering up prayers, Groove Monkee also recently released a “Police Beats” MIDI pack that is really nice. If you own their Mega Pack you get it as a free update.


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## carlc (Nov 19, 2022)

Ok, I know the questions around SDX drum expansion recommendations have been beaten to death (groan), but here goes…

I moved from SD2 to SD3 in the Thomann sale a few weeks back (utilizing a cross-grade from EZD3). I already had the NY Avatar content from SD2, plus the Metal Foundry SDX. I also own a few EZX titles: Indie Folk, Metal Machine, Pop/Rock, Reggae, and Claustrophobic. Besides Toontrack, I have the kits from NI Komplete, Damage 2, and a handful of Ugritone punk & metal kits.

Also with the recent sale, I bought an SDX 3-pack build-a-bundle. I am trying to decide which three to pick. I am mostly recording rock and pop, occasionally some metal as well as some ambient and underlayment music. (Quick aside: “underlayment” autocorrected to “underpayment”, how did they know!?!)

Based on what I have here is what I am thinking:

*Pick 1:* *Rooms of Hansa (RoH)* - Already downloaded and installed based on recommendations on VI-C and elsewhere; sounds great so far although I would like more rack toms - I’m sure I can add some and re-save the presets.
*Pick 2: *

*Legacy of Rock (LoR)* - Great reviews, probably overlaps with FoR, and it seems most kits only include one rack tom, although lots of other percussion additions
*Decades* - It has great reviews but seems more focused on 40s & 50s which is not really my thing. Maybe as a supplemental library? For softer stuff, I do already have the Indie Folk EZX and Avatar SDX.
*Fields of Rock (FoR)* - Newest addition from this group of SDXs; the additional percussion looks interesting. Leaning towards this for pick #2, but the feedback in this thread highlighted that the drums were struck very hard and FoR might struggle with anything more subtle. Also, does it overlap too much with RoH?
*Pick 3:*

*Death & Darkness (D&D)* - This seems to be the go-to recommendation for most people alongside RoH. From what I read, this is an extremely useful collection for non-metal if you are willing to spend time tinkering & tweaking. I’m not sure that I am. I also have the metal sounds mostly covered with my Metal Foundry SDX, Metal Machine EZX, and Ugritone kits.
*Hitmaker* - This one is interesting as a utility kit. In some cases the sounds might be too recognizable to be useful, but I could see myself using the Sting/Police-esque sounds if they are different enough from the Reggae EZX I already own. There is also a lot of electronic drum content in here which may be partially covered with the SD3 core content + Claustrophobic EZX + other VSTs. I’m sure the Hitmaker SDX quality is much better, but I don’t use a lot of electronic drums.
If I do pick FoR or LoR for pick 2, I could consider *Decades* for pick 3. I probably would not want to do RoH + FoR + LoR for the three picks since there is maybe too much overlap (?). Decades could be a nice supplement.
Any thoughts appreciated! BTW, the Orchestral SDX looks interesting but it is not available as a selection with the SDX 3-pack.


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## kevinh (Nov 19, 2022)

carlc said:


> Ok, I know the questions around SDX drum expansion recommendations have been beaten to death (groan), but here goes…
> 
> I moved from SD2 to SD3 in the Thomann sale a few weeks back (utilizing a cross-grade from EZD3). I already had the NY Avatar content from SD2, plus the Metal Foundry SDX. I also own a few EZX titles: Indie Folk, Metal Machine, Pop/Rock, Reggae, and Claustrophobic. Besides Toontrack, I have the kits from NI Komplete, Damage 2, and a handful of Ugritone punk & metal kits.
> 
> ...


Not what you asked but with my three pack I bought rooms of Hansa, fields of rock, and hitmaker.


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## carlc (Nov 19, 2022)

kevinh said:


> Not what you asked but with my three pack I bought rooms of Hansa, fields of rock, and hitmaker.


Thanks, what did you already have before those three?


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## kevinh (Nov 19, 2022)

carlc said:


> Thanks, what did you already have before those three?


These were my first expansion SDX beside a couple of Ezdrummer libraries (dream pop / singer songwriter). Next I have my eye on Decades probably.


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## Mike Stone (Nov 20, 2022)

carlc said:


> Ok, I know the questions around SDX drum expansion recommendations have been beaten to death (groan), but here goes…
> 
> I moved from SD2 to SD3 in the Thomann sale a few weeks back (utilizing a cross-grade from EZD3). I already had the NY Avatar content from SD2, plus the Metal Foundry SDX. I also own a few EZX titles: Indie Folk, Metal Machine, Pop/Rock, Reggae, and Claustrophobic. Besides Toontrack, I have the kits from NI Komplete, Damage 2, and a handful of Ugritone punk & metal kits.
> 
> ...


For my taste, I would pick Death and Darkness (esp. for the snares and cymbals), Rooms of Hansa (Marble Room and Vocal Booth) and Hitmaker (Copland drum kit + great higher pitched snares), esp. if you're into mostly rock and pop. What you miss here is a good jazz drum kit, but you can also get this with the Big Band EZX (taken from Decades).

I haven't used Legacy of Rock, so that could be a good one too, but I don't know how much overlap there is between RoH and Legacy of Rock. Many people like the 80s drum kit a lot too from Decades. All the recent SDX libraries are very good, though.


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## dremin (Nov 20, 2022)

carlc said:


> Ok, I know the questions around SDX drum expansion recommendations have been beaten to death (groan), but here goes…
> 
> I moved from SD2 to SD3 in the Thomann sale a few weeks back (utilizing a cross-grade from EZD3). I already had the NY Avatar content from SD2, plus the Metal Foundry SDX. I also own a few EZX titles: Indie Folk, Metal Machine, Pop/Rock, Reggae, and Claustrophobic. Besides Toontrack, I have the kits from NI Komplete, Damage 2, and a handful of Ugritone punk & metal kits.
> 
> ...


i would get hansa, decades and hitmaker. already have the first 2 and will purchase the hitmaker eventually as well


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## MPortmann (Nov 20, 2022)

I wouldn’t limit SDX Decades to 40s & 50s focused. I use it on all sorts of current productions that require real drums from clients. In fact, I had client that insisted in hiring an A list studio drummer, engineer and recording studio to replace the drums from Decades. We ended up keeping the virtual drums.


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## dyross (Nov 20, 2022)

OP here with some followup questions after this excellent discussion so far.

I have LoR, RoH, and D&D. I really enjoy the sound of LoR for the retro-prog I'm making. However, I'm finding the kit setup to be pretty limiting: just one rack tom, and only 3 cymbals. I don't find that I'm using the timpani (and have other orchestral timpani to use if necessary) nor the gong.

So what's the best way to mix-and-match different rooms? Should I use the D&D template for the extra cymbals and toms, and mix in kit pieces from LoR?

What about adding one-shots like cowbell, woodblock, etc.? When I've briefly messed around with that, it's unclear about how those one-shots are mixed into mixer - doesn't seem like it goes it bleeds into the mics etc. Is that the right way to do it, or is it better to use multiple instances of SD3 with full kits and defer some MIDI to one instance, and some to the other?


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## sumskilz (Nov 20, 2022)

dyross said:


> So what's the best way to mix-and-match different rooms?


You will get different answers on this, but to me, it always sounds weird. Keep in mind, my main instrument is drum set, so I'm probably particularly aware of how unnatural it sounds. The drum set is one cohesive instrument to me, so it might be akin to something like a cello player hearing different articulations of what's supposed to be the same solo cello being recorded on different days in different rooms. If you're going for a very realistic sound, then using drums and cymbals all recorded by the same drummer in the same room with the bleed enabled is the best way to achieve that.

That said, unrelated samples are layered on top of acoustic drums in commercial recordings all the time, which does sound unnatural to me as well, though not necessarily bad. There is a difference however, in that in those cases, some of the sound of the original drum that was in the same room remains, so it's not entirely like trying to combine two completely unrelated acoustic environments. Of course, this may not be something you care that much about. Obviously, very unnatural drums are the norm for many genres these days. Based on your previous posts though, it seems like you may be going for a more realistic sound.

By the way, if this interests anyone, the Legacy of Rock SDX was recorded in the same room as Spitfire's studio orchestra and BHTC. Not that I think you need a drum set to be in the same room with an orchestra, just that I think it's interesting enough to mention and that it may not be something that everyone already knows.


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## MaxOctane (Nov 20, 2022)

In what ways in SuperiorDrummer better (in actual usage) than EZDrummer? I have EZD and I've read the comparison charts between the two, but I can't tell how much the upgrade really matters?

Or are the SDX expansion kits just much better than EZX kits?

Thanks!


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## carlc (Nov 20, 2022)

MaxOctane said:


> In what ways in SuperiorDrummer better (in actual usage) than EZDrummer? I have EZD and I've read the comparison charts between the two, but I can't tell how much the upgrade really matters?
> 
> Or are the SDX expansion kits just much better than EZX kits?
> 
> Thanks!


The ability to play SDX libraries is probably the biggest difference for me. As far as the plugins themselves, I think Toontrack closed the gap a bit with the recent EZD3 release. It has been a while since I looked at the specs, but I believe the main differences that remain are in the level of control you get with channels & effects in the mixer section.

EDIT: You may have seen this already, but this chart gives a nice side-by-side comparison: https://www.toontrack.com/comparison-chart-sd2-sd3-ezd3/


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## carlc (Nov 20, 2022)

dyross said:


> I have LoR, RoH, and D&D. I really enjoy the sound of LoR for the retro-prog I'm making. However, I'm finding the kit setup to be pretty limiting: just one rack tom, and only 3 cymbals. I don't find that I'm using the timpani (and have other orchestral timpani to use if necessary) nor the gong.
> 
> So what's the best way to mix-and-match different rooms? Should I use the D&D template for the extra cymbals and toms, and mix in kit pieces from LoR?


Both LoR and RoH seem to have this limitation with a single rack tom. Have you tried adding a drum and re-selecting the rack tom from the same kit you are already using? You can adjust the tuning to mimic the next rack tom, and the room ambience should match.


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## carlc (Nov 20, 2022)

dremin said:


> i would get hansa, decades and hitmaker. already have the first 2 and will purchase the hitmaker eventually as well





MPortmann said:


> I wouldn’t limit SDX Decades to 40s & 50s focused. I use it on all sorts of current productions that require real drums from clients. In fact, I had client that insisted in hiring an A list studio drummer, engineer and recording studio to replace the drums from Decades. We ended up keeping the virtual drums.


Thanks everyone for the recommendations and clarifications! After much handwringing, I ended up with RoH, Decades, and Hitmaker. I watched lots of reviews and walkthroughs of all of the newer SDX offerings. It looks like Decades is much more flexible and adaptable than I initially thought (downloading now). Hitmaker also has lots of unique sounds that were not in my pallet. I may pick up FoR or LoR in the future, but in the meantime, I'll dig into RoH. I may also pick up D&D in the future, but for now, I can use my Metal Foundry SDX.


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## skythemusic (Nov 20, 2022)

I have just about everything SDX and EZX and given what you’re describing I feel you’d like Progressive Foundry, Rooms of Hansa and Legacy of Rock best.


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## Mike Stone (Nov 21, 2022)

carlc said:


> Both LoR and RoH seem to have this limitation with a single rack tom. Have you tried adding a drum and re-selecting the rack tom from the same kit you are already using? You can adjust the tuning to mimic the next rack tom, and the room ambience should match.


True, but the Marble Room octobans in RoH sound great, and work really well for fills (their sound is closer to regular rack toms).


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## carlc (Nov 21, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> True, but the Marble Room octobans in RoH sound great, and work really well for fills (their sound is closer to regular rack toms).


I suppose in that case, you would re-map the midi note assignments for the missing rack toms to point at the octobans instead of re-triggering the same rack tom. That way, any MIDI grooves you have would play back as expected.


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## dyross (Nov 21, 2022)

How do folks find the Orchestral Percussion SDX mixes with other kits? Do you import instruments as one-shots, or do you use multiple instances, or do you not use them together at all?


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## dyross (Nov 22, 2022)

Looks like they just released a pretty sweet looking SDX:









Area 33 SDX


An expansion for Superior Drummer 3 by Thordendal/Bergstrand/Margarit.




www.toontrack.com





This one has no lack of Rack Toms or Cymbals 

How it works for rock as opposed to metal remains to be seen.


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## newbreednet (Nov 22, 2022)

dyross said:


> Looks like they just released a pretty sweet looking SDX:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


omg that's a shock after Hitmaker only coming out so recently.

SDX's be like buses


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## newbreednet (Nov 22, 2022)

I'm devouring the new product videos now.... they've already made several references to the notion that Area 33 is "not just for metal; you can do anything with these kits"...

180Gb. A monster!


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## dyross (Nov 22, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> I'm devouring the new product videos now.... they've already made several references to the notion that Area 33 is "not just for metal; you can do anything with these kits"...
> 
> 180Gb. A monster!



Just watched this, too. Man, wasn't expecting to have an SDX in my BF list!


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## newbreednet (Nov 22, 2022)

dyross said:


> Just watched this, too. Man, wasn't expecting to have an SDX in my BF list!


Haha same


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## carlc (Nov 22, 2022)

dyross said:


> Just watched this, too. Man, wasn't expecting to have an SDX in my BF list!


Well, the SDX value pack is still on sale at Thomann for $299. You could have this plus two more for $99 each 

“virtual forest of cymbals”


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## dyross (Nov 22, 2022)

carlc said:


> Well, the SDX value pack is still on sale at Thomann for $299. You could have this plus two more for $99 each
> 
> “virtual forest of cymbals”


Yup, this is how I got my first three. Great deal, but wish it worked for Orchestral Percussion, too.


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## newbreednet (Nov 23, 2022)

Well, I found Area 33 on sale at inta-audio.com for £120, and I had a 10% discount code I'd been keeping for a moment like this, so I could not resist! They're also doing a a 7% Black Friday discount for all items currently (code LUCKY7) so it seems to be the best place to pick it up.


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## madfloyd (Nov 23, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> Well, I found Area 33 on sale at inta-audio.com for £120, and I had a 10% discount code I'd been keeping for a moment like this, so I could not resist! They're also doing a a 7% Black Friday discount for all items currently (code LUCKY7) so it seems to be the best place to pick it up.


Darn, I paid full price.


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## Mike Stone (Nov 23, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> Well, I found Area 33 on sale at inta-audio.com for £120, and I had a 10% discount code I'd been keeping for a moment like this, so I could not resist! They're also doing a a 7% Black Friday discount for all items currently (code LUCKY7) so it seems to be the best place to pick it up.


What do think about it so far? How does it compare to Death & Darkness and Fields of Rock?
Thanks!


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## newbreednet (Nov 23, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> What do think about it so for? How does it compare to Death & Darkness and Fields of Rock?
> Thanks!


Ah, they haven't even issued the serial to me yet... inta-audio usually take an hour or two to process and probably even longer at this time of year. And then I need to download 180Gb! I won't actually get to demo it for a day or two yet.


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## madfloyd (Nov 23, 2022)

I've downloaded and installed it and will get to check it out later today.


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## newbreednet (Nov 23, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> I've downloaded and installed it and will get to check it out later today.


I envy your connection speed haha. I've got my serial now at least


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## Kevin63101 (Nov 23, 2022)

carlc said:


> Thanks everyone for the recommendations and clarifications! After much handwringing, I ended up with RoH, Decades, and Hitmaker.





carlc said:


> I may pick up FoR or LoR in the future, but in the meantime, I'll dig into RoH. I may also pick up D&D in the future.


All great choices.


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

I've had a chance to play with Area 33 now. Only noodled with the presets, but enough to get a brief idea of what it can (and maybe can't) do. 

So firstly - these drums have been hit HARD!! Which for me is great, I often wished that Toontrack drums were hit harder. This SDX does not disappoint! 

The words that come to mind are "midrange", "attack", "piercing", "violent" and "powerful". I think these drums will have no problem cutting through a dense mix.

This is definitely an SDX capable of generating highly desirable drum tones for any sort of metal / heavy rock production. I went back and played with "Death and Darkness" SDX as a quick comparison, and soon wished to be back in Area 33, where the tones were more punishing.

However...

The ads were keen to point out that this SDX is "not just for metal", and the Daniel Bergstrand presets make a point of showing it - there are recreations of (I think) the drum sound of "Exit Music (For A Film)" by Radiohead and "Black Hole Sun" by Soundgarden - both "rock" - yes - but this SDX is not trying to be Decades. 

What the Bergstrand presets do show, though, is that this library is capable of being many things - at least, many things within the rock/alternative/heavy music spectrum. 

Of course, there will be more to explore and these are just my most initial of thoughts. The "mixer walkthrough" demo video they put out already shows how the mic channels can be used to shift the tone of these drums around by a long way, so, like I say I'm only going on my initial reaction to the presets. 

Personally I'm chuffed to bits with it because this is absolutely the type of SDX I would have wished for - heavy, hard, punishing and with huge potential for sculpting my own vision of what I want metal and rock drums to sound like.


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## dyross (Nov 26, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> I've had a chance to play with Area 33 now. Only noodled with the presets, but enough to get a brief idea of what it can (and maybe can't) do.
> 
> So firstly - these drums have been hit HARD!! Which for me is great, I often wished that Toontrack drums were hit harder. This SDX does not disappoint!
> 
> ...


Thank you for the detailed info, glad you’re enjoying it! Definitely on my list.


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

I'm a little giddy, I'll calm down after this, promise:

Area 33, default kit, I opened all the ambient mic / extra room mics, set to full bleed. Uses 15Gb RAM 

Amazing room sound, put me in mind of In Utero / Nirvana tone. 

Sloppy one-take fingerdrumming of Serve The Servants )))


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## dyross (Nov 26, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> I'm a little giddy, I'll calm down after this, promise:
> 
> Area 33, default kit, I opened all the ambient mic / extra room mics, set to full bleed. Uses 15Gb RAM
> 
> ...


Nice playing, killer sound!

By the way, do you think this SDX can help me achieve this sound?






Any drum experts want to recommend an EZD kit similar to Mattias Olsson?


Hey folks, Sorry if this is a very specific question, but maybe it's a fun challenge for EZD folks on vi-control...? I own EZD3 (with EZD2 kits included), and am trying to find a sound similar to Mattias Olsson's, as played with Änglagård. Here's an example song with great drumming: (It's 15...




vi-control.net


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## Mike Stone (Nov 26, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> I'm a little giddy, I'll calm down after this, promise:
> 
> Area 33, default kit, I opened all the ambient mic / extra room mics, set to full bleed. Uses 15Gb RAM
> 
> ...


You could use some of the included midi grooves and fills, to give a better sense of the toms and dynamics of the drums (as well as flams, rim shots etc.). Definitely sounds punchy and rock-oriented though, nice tone!


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## madfloyd (Nov 26, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> I've had a chance to play with Area 33 now. Only noodled with the presets, but enough to get a brief idea of what it can (and maybe can't) do.
> 
> So firstly - these drums have been hit HARD!! Which for me is great, I often wished that Toontrack drums were hit harder. This SDX does not disappoint!
> 
> ...


I would love to know which of the Bergstrand presets you think match those songs. I'm not doubting you, just curious.

I'm always confused when I get a new Toontrack package. For example, supposedly there are 7 kits but there is only one Area 33 choice when loading the drum library. I know the presets use various kits (or combinations thereof) but what's the easiest way to just see each of the 7 kits?


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

dyross said:


> Nice playing, killer sound!
> 
> By the way, do you think this SDX can help me achieve this sound?


Thanks, man!

Funny, I've just been checking out that thread and listening to Mattias Olsson's playing. The sound you're looking for is a bit snappier than the one I just posted... but I was just high on the excitement of the room round. What I showed was just no processing or mixing at all, just the raw room. I haven't been through all the snares yet to see how snappy they get. I have Metal Foundry too and can agree with others saying that SDX could get close - but - it's an old SDX so not as deeply sampled or as dynamic as the newer ones.

I really like Mattias' tone though so will gladly join you on this journey to match it haha


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

madfloyd said:


> I would love to know which of the Bergstrand presets you think match those songs. I'm not doubting you, just curious.
> 
> I'm always confused when I get a new Toontrack package. For example, supposedly there are 7 kits but there is only one Area 33 choice when loading the drum library. I know the presets use various kits (or combinations thereof) but what's the easiest way to just see each of the 7 kits?


The Radiohead preset is called "OK 97" (so presumably a reference to OK Computer, released in 1997)

The Soundgarden preset is called "Sound Unknown" (presumably a reference to the album "Superunknown", which is where Black hole Sun comes from.)

They don't really make any attempt at hiding this haha - if you go the Area 33 page on Toontrack.com, then click "kits & presets" demos - example 3 of 25 is clearly playing Black Hole Sun using this preset, and example 7 of 25 is playing Exit Music (For A Film)...









Area 33 SDX


An expansion for Superior Drummer 3 by Thordendal/Bergstrand/Margarit.




www.toontrack.com





Re: finding the 7 raw kits - in the presets menu, where it says "Daniel Bergstrand", and then underneath that it says "Toontrack" (for their presets)... just keep going down that menu, at the bottom it says "Drum Kits" - inside there you'll find the 7 raw kits, unprocessed and waiting for some love.


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> You could use some of the included midi grooves and fills, to give a better sense of the toms and dynamics of the drums (as well as flams, rim shots etc.). Definitely sounds punchy and rock-oriented though, nice tone!


A youtuber is already on the case!


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> You could use some of the included midi grooves and fills, to give a better sense of the toms and dynamics of the drums (as well as flams, rim shots etc.). Definitely sounds punchy and rock-oriented though, nice tone!


I'm a bit in love with the Area 33 room tone once all the bleeds are activated. I keep going back to Death, Darkness, Fields of Rock to compare, then I'm like naaaaaahhhh let's go back to Area 33 

Decades is still hella special though. It does things that Area 33 never will. Like nuance hahahah

edit: don't get me wrong, the Yamaha Recording Custom is D&D is still a thing of beauty too...


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## carlc (Nov 26, 2022)

I see Thomann has the three New York Studio SDXs on sale for $42 each. I think that’s the lowest I’ve seen them. I already have the first one (Avatar) since it came with SD2. I’ve always loved that sound and still go back to it frequently. Volume 2 was done in two different studios in the NYC area, and for Vol 3 they went back to Avatar. I’m tempted to get Vol 3 for sure. What do you all think of these?


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

carlc said:


> I see Thomann has the three New York Studio SDXs on sale for $42 each. I think that’s the lowest I’ve seen them. I already have the first one (Avatar) since it came with SD2. I’ve always loved that sound and still go back to it frequently. Volume 2 was done in two different studios in the NYC area, and for Vol 3 they went back to Avatar. I’m tempted to get Vol 3 for sure. What do you all think of these?


I bought vol. 3 in the same sale last year! Because it was cheap... and then rarely used it...

As has been noted in this thread already, there are SDX "before Decades" and SDX "after Decades"...

If the older SDX thing works for you, more power to you! For me the hi-hat detail in Decades-and-beyond libraries is just too good to give up by going backwards.


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## carlc (Nov 26, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> I bought vol. 3 in the same sale last year! Because it was cheap... and then rarely used it...
> 
> As has been noted in this thread already, there are SDX "before Decades" and SDX "after Decades"...
> 
> If the older SDX thing works for you, more power to you! For me the hi-hat detail in Decades-and-beyond libraries is just too good to give up by going backwards.


They also have the Area 33 SDX on sale for $137. That one is pretty new 

Actually, all of the new ones are on sale for $137 or $138, although if you are thinking of buying more than one, it's better to get the SDX 3-pack for $299.


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

carlc said:


> They also have the Area 33 SDX on sale for $137. That one is pretty new
> 
> Actually, all of the new ones are on sale for $137 or $138, although if you are thinking of buying more than one, it's better to get the SDX 3-pack for $299.


If the Avatar sound does it for you though, why not go for it? I just know that if it was me I would put the money towards the newer stuff. I actually went and loaded up Vol.3 just now to check that my memories of it were correct, but yeah, I was basically dying to get out of it and back to Area 33 asap lol. It's "only" 17Gb too... reflected in the kit sizes and also the level of detail in the samplng...

I got D&D and Fields of Rock second-hand, about £90 each I think. I haven't used Knobcloud much but I did use it to get those SDX. Decades I got in the "buy SD3 and get a free SDX" from last year, which is the same deal Toontrack are running this year too. (Alas, Area 33 isn't included in that offer for the newcomers.) 

Hansa has been on my "yeah if I see it on offer" list, but Area 33 has so totally scratched the itch that I had for a "Decades-level of quality for heavy music" so I think I'll be happy for a while now....


...famous last words


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## carlc (Nov 26, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> If the Avatar sound does it for you though, why not go for it? I just know that if it was me I would put the money towards the newer stuff. I actually went and loaded up Vol.3 just now to check that my memories of it were correct, but yeah, I was basically dying to get out of it and back to Area 33 asap lol. It's "only" 17Gb too... reflected in the kit sizes and also the level of detail in the samplng...
> 
> I got D&D and Fields of Rock second-hand, about £90 each I think. I haven't used Knobcloud much but I did use it to get those SDX. Decades I got in the "buy SD3 and get a free SDX" from last year, which is the same deal Toontrack are running this year too. (Alas, Area 33 isn't included in that offer for the newcomers.)
> 
> ...


I recently picked up Decades, Hitmaker, and RoH as part of an SDX 3-pack for $289 total. I agree the sounds are fantastic. These were my first SDX purchases in many years, and everything I owned before that was pre-Decades. I won't have a chance to properly explore and appreciate them until after all these BF sales settle down.

Oooh... Several EZXs for $20 each at Thomann! (easily distracted)


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

carlc said:


> I recently picked up Decades, Hitmaker, and RoH as part of an SDX 3-pack for $289 total. I agree the sounds are fantastic. These were my first SDX purchases in many years, and everything I owned before that was pre-Decades. I won't have a chance to properly explore and appreciate them until after all these BF sales settle down.
> 
> Oooh... Several EZXs for $20 each at Thomann! (easily distracted)


What wowed me with Decades was loading it up on an 88-key controller and being amazed at how many distinct articulations were mapped over so many keys... I know in the sales pitch for Decades they talk about the "27 hi-hat articulations" but once I actually played with it "in real life" it was like...wow ok it's gonna be hard to use any drum library that doesn't have this amount of control. 

I should add, re: Area 33 that I haven't checked for this sort of depth yet! I'm still up high in the clouds just on the room sound alone. But it's 185Gb, so I suspect it will be up to snuff.

I'm not even a e-drum player (yet?!) but I love knowing that I own the best stuff should I ever get a kit. I have however used SD3 in Virtual Reality with Aerodrums! Which works surprisingly well and is kinda hilarious too. But that's kinda another discussion.


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## madfloyd (Nov 26, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> The Radiohead preset is called "OK 97" (so presumably a reference to OK Computer, released in 1997)
> 
> The Soundgarden preset is called "Sound Unknown" (presumably a reference to the album "Superunknown", which is where Black hole Sun comes from.)
> 
> ...


Thank you!!!


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## carlc (Nov 26, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> What wowed me with Decades was loading it up on an 88-key controller and being amazed at how many distinct articulations were mapped over so many keys... I know in the sales pitch for Decades they talk about the "27 hi-hat articulations" but once I actually played with it "in real life" it was like...wow ok it's gonna be hard to use any drum library that doesn't have this amount of control.


How does that work with pre-programmed MIDI files? Other than maybe the MIDI files that came with Decades, I would imagine most files would not take advantage of those additional articulations?



newbreednet said:


> I'm not even a e-drum player (yet?!) but I love knowing that I own the best stuff should I ever get a kit. I have however used SD3 in Virtual Reality with Aerodrums! Which works surprisingly well and is kinda hilarious too. But that's kinda another discussion.


I did buy a mid-grade electronic drum kit and have had lots of fun playing it and triggering SD sounds. It's great for stress relief, and way more fun than finger-drumming on pads. I'm a guitarist just learning drums, however, and other than simple beats I generally would not use my own playing in a real project. Most often I will use MIDI packs from Toontrack or Groove Monkee (played by a professional drummer), or sometimes actual recordings of a real drummer when possible.


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## newbreednet (Nov 26, 2022)

carlc said:


> How does that work with pre-programmed MIDI files? Other than maybe the MIDI files that came with Decades, I would imagine most files would not take advantage of those additional articulations?


No idea, I think the wealth of articulations are aimed mostly at e-drum users who have multi-zone pads. 


> I did buy a mid-grade electronic drum kit and have had lots of fun playing it and triggering SD sounds. It's great for stress relief, and way more fun than finger-drumming on pads. I'm a guitarist just learning drums, however, and other than simple beats I generally would not use my own playing in a real project. Most often I will use MIDI packs from Toontrack or Groove Monkee (played by a professional drummer), or sometimes actual recordings of a real drummer when possible.


Nobody will stop me becoming the fingerdrumming Dave Grohl!  Yeah same generally, guitarist who dabbles and dreams in drums... but I would totally use my own playing, haha! After I heard that Devin Townsend's "Ziltoid" record was made entirely with the original "Drumkit From Hell", I thought, well, if he can do it....


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## Vita (Nov 26, 2022)

Thanks for the $299 tip! I’ve been checking Toontrack’s sight every day - nothing. Finally found the deal at Thomann. 
Question: Thomann is making you buy the the bundle before choosing which SDX’s you want. I’d like Decades, Fields of Rock, and Hitmaker (already have Hansa). Were the newest SDX’s (Hitmaker, Area 33) available to be included as well?


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## carlc (Nov 26, 2022)

Vita said:


> Thanks for the $299 tip! I’ve been checking Toontrack’s sight every day - nothing. Finally found the deal at Thomann.
> Question: Thomann is making you buy the the bundle before choosing which SDX’s you want. I’d like Decades, Fields of Rock, and Hitmaker (already have Hansa). Were the newest SDX’s (Hitmaker, Area 33) available to be included as well?


Yes, the only SDX that is excluded is the Orchestral Percussion SDX which retails for $279. The other SDX libraries (which retail at $179) are all included. Essentially you will get an email from Thomann after the purchase with three SDX serial numbers which you redeem individually within your Toontrack Product Manager.

With the 3-pack, the price works out to ~$99 each. As such, I would not recommend picking anything released prior to the Decades SDX because those are often on sale individually for $50-85. Many are on sale now for that range at Thomann.


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## carlc (Nov 26, 2022)

One additional highlight... Thomann also has MIDI 6-packs (Drum, Bass, and Keys) on sale for $85. The 6-pack is usually the cheapest way to buy Toontrack MIDI and will almost always beat the lowest sale prices. Of course, I highlight recommend getting the Groove Monkee Mega Pack when on sale for $149 (like right now), which is an insane value compared to how much you pay for Toontrack MIDI.


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## Pablocrespo (Nov 26, 2022)

carlc said:


> One additional highlight... Thomann also has MIDI 6-packs (Drum, Bass, and Keys) on sale for $85. The 6-pack is usually the cheapest way to buy Toontrack MIDI and will almost always beat the lowest sale prices. Of course, I highlight recommend getting the Groove Monkee Mega Pack when on sale for $149 (like right now), which is an insane value compared to how much you pay for Toontrack MIDI.


How does the groove monkey play in sd3, (decades for example)?
Is it the same quality?


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## carlc (Nov 26, 2022)

Pablocrespo said:


> How does the groove monkey play in sd3, (decades for example)?
> Is it the same quality?


Works great… all of their products come with multiple versions inside the download optimized for Superior Drummer, Addictive Drums, BFD, EZdrummer, Steven Slate, etc.


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## Dewdman42 (Nov 26, 2022)

So thinking about going for the 3 pack.... How much disk space do I need if I don't install all the extra surround mics, etc..? I'm thinking about getting Legacy Of Rock, Rock Foundry and HitMaker... what I have already are all the NY kits, Metal Foundry...and a couple old EZX kits.


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## ruslan.st (Nov 27, 2022)

I am considering upgrading from EZD to SD3, but have strange feeling about Toontrack drums overall.
Listened to a lot of their demos, also have several EZD expansions and to me Toontrack drums "all sound the same"  . I like that "Toontrack sound", but not sure if buying additional quite expensive expansions gives enough variability.

Of course objectively drums are different, recorded in different rooms by different producers, different players with different hit strength. I know its stupid , but to me they sound like many different guitars played through the same amp setting. It's difficult to understand what exactly brings that sameness, just very subjective impression. In unprocessed demos I usually find most snares sounding bangy with rounded low end and some dip around 2k, most kicks the opposite have quite obvious click sound above 1k, hihats feel like some of their most annoying low-mid frequencies are already dimmed. Then probably there is some consistent aesthetics how kit pieces are balanced and placed in stereo.

I am not a drummer and just hobbyist, so of course it can be just lack of experience to hear details. But I do not get such "all the same" feel with for example NI Komplete Abbey Road/Studio Drummers. If I try to mix and match drum pieces from different NI patches usually they do not fit, but for example in EZD pieces from different packs, despite not always fitting perfectly, still feel more similar and replaceable.


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## Robo Rivard (Nov 27, 2022)

ruslan.st said:


> I am considering upgrading from EZD to SD3, but have strange feeling about Toontrack drums overall.
> Listened to a lot of their demos, also have several EZD expansions and to me Toontrack drums "all sound the same"  . I like that "Toontrack sound", but not sure if buying additional quite expensive expansions gives enough variability.
> 
> Of course objectively drums are different, recorded in different rooms by different producers, different players with different hit strength. I know its stupid , but to me they sound like many different guitars played through the same amp setting. It's difficult to understand what exactly brings that sameness, just very subjective impression. In unprocessed demos I usually find most snares sounding bangy with rounded low end and some dip around 2k, most kicks the opposite have quite obvious click sound above 1k, hihats feel like some of their most annoying low-mid frequencies are already dimmed. Then probably there is some consistent aesthetics how kit pieces are balanced and placed in stereo.
> ...


Just change developer. Obviously, you don't like the Toontrack sound. Move on.


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## ruslan.st (Nov 27, 2022)

Robo Rivard said:


> Obviously, you don't like the Toontrack sound.


So you confirm that this "Toontrack sound" exists, and I didn't invent it in my head? :D
Actually (as I wrote) I like it and find it nice.


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## Pablocrespo (Nov 27, 2022)

carlc said:


> Works great… all of their products come with multiple versions inside the download optimized for Superior Drummer, Addictive Drums, BFD, EZdrummer, Steven Slate, etc.


Great! Can you use them with tap2find, databases, and opening the containing folder when working with the song creator?


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## Mike Stone (Nov 27, 2022)

I dunno, nothing beats Marble Room for me yet, for pop/rock/heavy rock.


ruslan.st said:


> I am considering upgrading from EZD to SD3, but have strange feeling about Toontrack drums overall.
> Listened to a lot of their demos, also have several EZD expansions and to me Toontrack drums "all sound the same"  . I like that "Toontrack sound", but not sure if buying additional quite expensive expansions gives enough variability.
> 
> Of course objectively drums are different, recorded in different rooms by different producers, different players with different hit strength. I know its stupid , but to me they sound like many different guitars played through the same amp setting. It's difficult to understand what exactly brings that sameness, just very subjective impression. In unprocessed demos I usually find most snares sounding bangy with rounded low end and some dip around 2k, most kicks the opposite have quite obvious click sound above 1k, hihats feel like some of their most annoying low-mid frequencies are already dimmed. Then probably there is some consistent aesthetics how kit pieces are balanced and placed in stereo.
> ...


This is interesting. There might be a certain way that the samples are processed, and how the SD3 plugin effects color the sound. All I can say is, that I spent a long time fine-tuning a few of my own presets, to get the sound I like. None of the presets did it for me. But, I think there are plenty of differences between say, Hitmaker, RoH and D&D, which are the ones I use the most. They don’t seem that similar to me.

However, there is a tendency in certain SDX libraries for things to sound a bit polite and not having enough punch, so I use quite a bit of tape overdrive, transient, and even some slight distortion - and also mix drums from different libraries (typically the snare). Compression and EQ are the obvious ones, but takes time and experience to get right. SD3 is definitely not “plug and play”, and is one of the more demanding/complex software instruments to use properly IMO.

I also find there to be a lot of duds in these libraries (weird snares, bass drums etc). I end up using only a handful of drums and kits that fit my taste, and ignore the rest. My favorite is still RoH Marble Room, best room sound and overall sounding kit to me. Then Death has some great sounding cymbals and punchy snares. RoH Vocal Booth has a couple of great sounding deeper snares. Hitmaker also has some great stuff in it, the programming/realism is the best (Phil Collins, Copland kits sound great, but again let down by generic or heavy-handed presets).


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## ruslan.st (Nov 27, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> I also find there to be a lot of duds in these libraries (weird snares, bass drums etc). I end up using only a handful of drums and kits that fit my taste, and ignore the rest.


Thank you for your opinion  . Is there any way to remove unneeded kits from SDX to save space?


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## dyross (Nov 27, 2022)

@newbreednet how do you think Area 33 will handle 70's rock? Yes, LoR will do it more easily, but I love the idea of getting something like that sound, but with (many) more kit pieces


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## Mike Stone (Nov 27, 2022)

ruslan.st said:


> Thank you for your opinion  . Is there any way to remove unneeded kits from SDX to save space?


No unfortunately (except for where different rooms are separated by the folder structure), and I would keep the additional mics too, because they are important for shaping the sound and adding fullness to the drums. Definitely worth it though, SD3 is a great tool for adding realistic and great sounding drums.


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## newbreednet (Nov 27, 2022)

dyross said:


> @newbreednet how do you think Area 33 will handle 70's rock? Yes, LoR will do it more easily, but I love the idea of getting something like that sound, but with (many) more kit pieces


Fields of Rock would be better, I think.

edit: I want to add, though, that I haven't played with Area 33 enough to know if it would be possible. I just also own Fields of Rock and it's basically made for what what you are describing!


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## Braveheart (Nov 27, 2022)

ruslan.st said:


> I am considering upgrading from EZD to SD3, but have strange feeling about Toontrack drums overall.
> Listened to a lot of their demos, also have several EZD expansions and to me Toontrack drums "all sound the same"  . I like that "Toontrack sound", but not sure if buying additional quite expensive expansions gives enough variability.
> 
> Of course objectively drums are different, recorded in different rooms by different producers, different players with different hit strength. I know its stupid , but to me they sound like many different guitars played through the same amp setting. It's difficult to understand what exactly brings that sameness, just very subjective impression. In unprocessed demos I usually find most snares sounding bangy with rounded low end and some dip around 2k, most kicks the opposite have quite obvious click sound above 1k, hihats feel like some of their most annoying low-mid frequencies are already dimmed. Then probably there is some consistent aesthetics how kit pieces are balanced and placed in stereo.
> ...


EZD has the sounds processed, while SD3 has the raw sounds available that you can shape to your liking.


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## LHall (Nov 27, 2022)

ruslan.st said:


> So you confirm that this "Toontrack sound" exists, and I didn't invent it in my head? :D
> Actually (as I wrote) I like it and find it nice.


SD3 is so extremely versatile. You can audition so many snare drums that sound nothing alike. Same with kicks, etc. I think if there is a Toontrack sound, it would be describe as any kit you want. The mixer is very deep and takes awhile to learn, but you can do almost anything you want with it.


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## dyross (Nov 27, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> Fields of Rock would be better, I think.
> 
> edit: I want to add, though, that I haven't played with Area 33 enough to know if it would be possible. I just also own Fields of Rock and it's basically made for what what you are describing!


I originally wrote it off a bit as some of the kits seemed pretty gimmicky. Stormtrooper kit!?

But the pure goth kit looks pretty sweet! As does the percussion room!

The one thing I’m not living in LoR is the cymbals - how is FoR cymbals? And would love to see if Area 33 is as flexible as Toontrack claims.


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## dyross (Nov 27, 2022)

One thing that seems awesome about Area 33 is everything (180gb!) is in the same room. Ultimate flexibility?


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## kgdrum (Nov 27, 2022)

Does anyone here know is this 3pack for SDX’s always $299 @Thomann or is this a BF deal?

Thanks


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## dyross (Nov 27, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> Does anyone here know is this 3pack for SDX’s always $299 @Thomann or is this a BF deal?
> 
> Thanks


No guarantee that it’ll always be available, but it was like that when I bought one a couple months ago.


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## newbreednet (Nov 27, 2022)

dyross said:


> I originally wrote it off a bit as some of the kits seemed pretty gimmicky. Stormtrooper kit!?
> 
> But the pure goth kit looks pretty sweet! As does the percussion room!
> 
> The one thing I’m not living in LoR is the cymbals - how is FoR cymbals? And would love to see if Area 33 is as flexible as Toontrack claims.


Hmm, I haven't used Fields in a while (and am away from the music computer atm) so, just going by my lasting impressions; the words that come to mind are damp, dark, dense... maybe I'm too influenced by the fact that it was recorded in Welsh countryside and the historic bands that have recorded there were often kinda mopey, moody, gloomy and doomy... however that is my impression of the library! Yes there is some frivolity in the kit choices but then again there are some good kits too. 
The percussion side is like a complete library on it's own - and it sounds very, very good - it has that "3D" effect similar to good Orchestral percussion libraries.


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## newbreednet (Nov 27, 2022)

dyross said:


> One thing that seems awesome about Area 33 is everything (180gb!) is in the same room. Ultimate flexibility?


You know, I hadn't really dwelled on that aspect of Area 33 yet, but it's a interesting point you raise. Hansa (which I don't have btw), Fields, and D&D are all multi-room libraries, whereas Area 33 is just the one space. I'm guessing you mean it's flexible in the sense that all the parts of all the kits can be interchanged because they were all recorded in the same space?


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## re-peat (Nov 27, 2022)

ruslan.st said:


> So you confirm that this "Toontrack sound" exists, and I didn't invent it in my head?



I think it does, yes. I certainly have also always been ever so slightly bothered by a certain samesoundingness in much that comes out of SD3 and, before that, SD2. No matter whether a sampling session is overseen by Al Schmitt, Michael Ibert, Eddie Kramer, Hugh Padgham or whomever — all of them great producers/engineers (assisted by an equally great team) and each with a *very* different recording approach and sonic signature —, at the end of the production process, all these libraries seem to acquire a sort of same-sounding gloss. Often most noticeable in the snares and cymbals, to my ears. Even if, say, 150 Toontrack snares are all very different from one another in timbre and character — which I agree with and which is also the first argument that people who contest the samesoundingness-charge invariably use —, they all do sound like fruit from the same tree to me.

I don’t know what it is. Perhaps some type of processing at Toontrack Towers, during the latter stages of the production of these libraries, which gives them that characteristic Toontrack sound. I can’t imagine what else it might be.

You also don’t get any bad-sounding-but-in-good-way kits in SD3. Doesn't exist. The people up top at Toontrack don’t seem to allow that, I sometimes think. Even the indie or non-mainstream stuff (where you might expect a little leftfield, lo-fi or at least somewhat rough and certainly less ‘produced’ approach) always sounds expertly recorded, pristine and polished. The Soul kits from the 60’s and 70’s is another good example: recorded with an historically correct minimum of microphones in historically correct conditions, after having made historically informed choices in recording gear, the result is still a very clean, very professional- and contemporary-sounding library that has no authentic ‘vintage patina’ whatsoever.

That’s a big reason why I switched to BFD, where you get a much wider range in quality and different sonic stamps. (And I mean: _really_ different.) From the truly awful, the noisily amateuristic, the charming mediocre, the passe-partout decent to the very reliably good and the supremely excellent.

Anyway, if, these days, I still reach for SD3, it’s nearly always exclusively for the toms — I quite like the ones in ‘Decades’ and ‘Indiependent’, for example — and occasionally a bassdrum. Very rarely I'll use a snare but never any cymbals or hi-hats.

I’ve seen other people mention this is as well, about SD3 having ’a sound’ (some say ‘a produced sound’), but when the chance presented itself to ask a drummer (a great musician and very fine drummer) who records content for Toontrack about this, he strongly disagreed. Not because he had to, you could tell, but because he really thinks it isn't so. So I don’t know. All I know is that I can’t ignore what I’m hearing.

_


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## Braveheart (Nov 27, 2022)

kgdrum said:


> Does anyone here know is this 3pack for SDX’s always $299 @Thomann or is this a BF deal?
> 
> Thanks


It may have to do with conversion rates between Euros and US dollars. Recently, it was even lower than 299$, so if Euros gets better, chances are that the US dollars price will increase.


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## biomuse (Nov 27, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I think it does, yes. I certainly have also always been ever so slightly bothered by a certain samesoundingness in much that comes out of SD3 and, before that, SD2. No matter whether a sampling session is overseen by Al Schmitt, Michael Ibert, Eddie Kramer, Hugh Padgham or whomever — all of them great producers/engineers (assisted by an equally great team) and each with a *very* different recording approach and sonic signature —, at the end of the production process, all these libraries seem to acquire a sort of same-sounding gloss. Often most noticeable in the snares and cymbals, to my ears. Even if, say, 150 Toontrack snares are all very different from one another in timbre and character — which I agree with and which is also the first argument that people who contest the samesoundingness-charge invariably use —, they all do sound like fruit from the same tree to me.
> 
> I don’t know what it is. Perhaps some type of processing at Toontrack Towers, during the latter stages of the production of these libraries, which gives them that characteristic Toontrack sound. I can’t imagine what else it might be.
> 
> ...


It’s an accurately observed point but I think the answer is pretty straightforward. 

Let’s imagine you’re committed to producing a series of multi-miked libraries that are touted as pro level, and what pro level means to you is that the end user either can go with the flow and use the room sound and processing you provide, or, has the ability to repurpose the raw samples to a different sonic endpoint. You have spent considerable effort developing a playback engine that can provide this flexibility.

Nevertheless, what you are shipping are recordings, not ideas. You therefore need to have an idea about a standard and consistent presentation of your raw sample content, a “basic hygiene” for the sounds that accords with your idea of a good starting point to support further processing by the user.

I think what you’re hearing is Matthias Ecklund’s judgement about that. That’s all.


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## re-peat (Nov 28, 2022)

I can imagine that what you’re saying is very much along the lines of what Toontrack themselves might answer if asked about this, biomuse. It’s very well put and makes complete sense.

But … how ‘raw’ exactly is Toontrack’s idea of ‘raw’? And what is the extent of that ‘basic hygiene’ process that you mention? Those are the key questions here, I feel. See, some of us don’t hear any truly raw content in SD3 — to us, every sample sounds already processed, noise-reduced, sterilized, groomed and beautified in some way or other — so we can’t help but wonder if the ‘basic hygiene’ of the recorded material doesn’t go a whole lot further than simply trimming the samples’ start- and endpoints and maybe do a few other functionally necessary edits. And we wonder if it is not during that process of ‘basic hygiene’ that the content acquires that characteristic same-sounding Toontrack-gloss across so many of its libraries.

I don’t wanna make this too big a thing though. SD3 is undisputably excellent quality, and so is nearly all of the content that is developed for it. I only have these two nagging misgivings: (1) that hint of samesoundingness, and (2), despite their meanwhile humongous and still growing catalog of diverse content, SD3 still covers only a surprisingly small percentage of what recorded drums can sound like.

_


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## biomuse (Nov 29, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I can imagine that what you’re saying is very much along the lines of what Toontrack themselves might answer if asked about this, biomuse. It’s very well put and makes complete sense.
> 
> But … how ‘raw’ exactly is Toontrack’s idea of ‘raw’? And what is the extent of that ‘basic hygiene’ process that you mention? Those are the key questions here, I feel. See, some of us don’t hear any truly raw content in SD3 — to us, every sample sounds already processed, noise-reduced, sterilized, groomed and beautified in some way or other — so we can’t help but wonder if the ‘basic hygiene’ of the recorded material doesn’t go a whole lot further than simply trimming the samples’ start- and endpoints and maybe do a few other functionally necessary edits. And we wonder if it is not during that process of ‘basic hygiene’ that the content acquires that characteristic same-sounding Toontrack-gloss across so many of its libraries.


Yeah I agree with this and I do think that’s exactly what explains the “sameyness.”
I’d question whether another outcome is possible if Toontrack sees value in a fundamental interchangeability of the content across kits, a value it obviously believes its users share. I value that as well.

After all, part of what SD2/3 lets you do is recontextualize drums, mixing and matching. You can readily imagine that if you did not implement a certain degreee of frequency and amplitude uniformity across the close samples, that would be much harder; it’s already challenging in some cases.

So yes, there’s a cost, in that the close samples have certain limits on their variation; you’re not going to find vastly different sounds there and that’s on purpose, because those sounds are intended to be portable across kits, a feature of the system. There’s no way to be hands-off if Toontrack wants to make that possible; some kind of homogenization has to happen. If it didn’t have this Ecklund-flavor of sameyness then it would need to have some other flavor of sameyness to make it work.

I guess Toontrack would probably say if you want variation, that’s what all those other signals, from deeper into the rooms and other specialized processing chains, are for. You mix those higher if you want the personality, lower if you want compatibility.

Like you, I’d welcome the addition of gloves-off, deeply idiosyncratic tracks; maybe a “mix” track that plays up the personality of the setting, similar to what is done with orchestral instruments, which face a similar personality vs. universality tradeoff. That would make these already-large libs significantly larger, b/c you’d need to do it across all the kit pieces.


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 29, 2022)

Anyone has any recommendations for SDXs, kind of massive drums that I can use for Cyberpunk like music (example) or Mick Gordon style drums (example).

I have the Thomann 3 pick pack, so I can get up to three, but this is the music I am aiming for. 
No idea about real drum kits, and I can use your advice here.


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## kgdrum (Nov 29, 2022)

I wish Toontrack would release a full blown deeply sampled SDX along the lines of Claustrophobic. I don’t always want a big kit in a big room,something that can be tight,aggressive and slam in a different way than the typical Metal/Rockish SDX.


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## biomuse (Nov 29, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Anyone has any recommendations for SDXs, kind of massive drums that I can use for Cyberpunk like music (example) or Mick Gordon style drums (example).
> 
> I have the Thomann 3 pick pack, so I can get up to three, but this is the music I am aiming for.
> No idea about real drum kits, and I can use your advice here.


This sounds like updated NIN to me, which fits the genre. I'd bother with SD3 for the cymbals only, just pick a clean & splashy set. The kick and snare sound like Drumulator era or maybe the Drumu itself; find samples of it, tune down and compress the #$%^ out of them w/moderate attack/fast release, maybe double with some dry close & tight picks from the factory SDXs at low level.

the venerable drumulator

Takehome: the personality of this = heavily processed drum machine augmented with recorded drums


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## DigitalSpace (Nov 29, 2022)

Braveheart said:


> EZD has the sounds processed, while SD3 has the raw sounds available that you can shape to your liking.


Some of the EZD libraries have an "original" setting for the raw sounds; though it doesn't appear to be that many. In any case, SD3 is definitely more configurable.


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## Tom Ferguson (Nov 30, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Anyone has any recommendations for SDXs, kind of massive drums that I can use for Cyberpunk like music (example) or Mick Gordon style drums (example).
> 
> I have the Thomann 3 pick pack, so I can get up to three, but this is the music I am aiming for.
> No idea about real drum kits, and I can use your advice here.


You're probably better off trying something like perfect drums or GGD as none of the SDXs really hit hard enough from what I've heard.

(EDIT: Actually listening to those examples they don't hit quite as hard as I would have though so probably could get there with an SDX (not sure which though) with lots of processing. Though the libraries I mentioned would probably get you there faster.)


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 30, 2022)

Tom Ferguson said:


> You're probably better off trying something like perfect drums or GGD as none of the SDXs really hit hard enough from what I've heard


Thanks, any specific packs that you recommend? 
I can trial GGD, and I will be listening to demos for the next few days for sure.


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## Tom Ferguson (Nov 30, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> Thanks, any specific packs that you recommend?
> I can trial GGD, and I will be listening to demos for the next few days for sure.


Well PD is just one library. It's very much pre-processed and sounds great out the box so very easy to use. All the drums are extremely well played tuned recorded and produced and there is a very good variety too. I'd probably go for that, especially if you aren't confident at producing heavy rock/metal drums.

Regarding GGD, probably can't go wrong with modern and massive or invasion, maybe the Matt Halpern sig. libraries or architects too even (though the latter is only 1 kits so very limited).


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 30, 2022)

Tom Ferguson said:


> Well PD is just one library. It's very much pre-processed and sounds great out the box so very easy to use. All the drums are extremely well played tuned recorded and produced and there is a very good variety too. I'd probably go for that, especially if you aren't confident at producing heavy rock/metal drums.
> 
> Regarding GGD, probably can't go wrong with modern and massive or invasion, maybe the Matt Halpern sig. libraries or architects too even (though the latter is only 1 kits so very limited).


I was listening all morning, and... WOW. That's exactly the sound I was looking for! 
Brough both GGD (Matt Halpern, Modern and Massive and Invasion) and PD, couldn't resist! They both sound awesome and I will put them in good use for sure! 

Now of course I have left with a 3 SDX pack, which I will probably not use at the moment.


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## Tom Ferguson (Nov 30, 2022)

Nimrod7 said:


> I was listening all morning, and... WOW. That's exactly the sound I was looking for!
> Brough both GGD (Matt Halpern, Modern and Massive and Invasion) and PD, couldn't resist! They both sound awesome and I will put them in good use for sure!
> 
> Now of course I have left with a 3 SDX pack, which I will probably not use at the moment.


Glad to have helped Nimrod! : D


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## Mike Stone (Nov 30, 2022)

Tom Ferguson said:


> You're probably better off trying something like perfect drums or GGD as none of the SDXs really hit hard enough from what I've heard.
> 
> (EDIT: Actually listening to those examples they don't hit quite as hard as I would have though so probably could get there with an SDX (not sure which though) with lots of processing. Though the libraries I mentioned would probably get you there faster.)


I have to disagree with this. Try playing with the Yamaha Custom drum set from Death SDX, it sounds great with a proper mix (the extra mic channels are crucial for a big/full sound). Also the Stormtrooper drum set from Fields of Rock is very hard hitting. Again, it's about the mixing and the right effects (and making your own preset). You can definitely get hard enough hits, using the right Toontrack kit IMO. Though some SDX/EZD libraries are made more for pop, and those are definitely more polite. If you're talking about NIN and cyberpunk, there could also be distortion and overdrive effects in the drum production.


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## Tom Ferguson (Nov 30, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> I have to disagree with this. Try playing with the Yamaha Custom drum set from Death SDX, it sounds great with a proper mix (the extra mic channels are crucial for a big/full sound). Also the Stormtrooper drum set from Fields of Rock is very hard hitting. Again, it's about the mixing and the right effects (and making your own preset). You can definitely get hard enough hits, using the right Toontrack kit IMO. Though some SDX/EZD libraries are made more for pop, and those are definitely more polite. If you're talking about NIN and cyberpunk, there could also be distortion and overdrive effects in the drum production.


Well as I said originally I thought the drums in the examples were going to hit harder than they did, which is why I changed my comment to say that that should be possible with an SDX with a bit of work.

But anyway A/Bing between those kits you mentioned and GGD I'd say the max velocity for the SDX snares sounds noticeably less cracked and sledgehammer-y (including the rimshots). Matt Halpern who plays the drums for most of those libraries is a monster and most drummers struggle to play that loud, if they even want to at all (it's more of a thing pioneered in modern metal bands and is OTT for most genres, part of that GGD 'sound' which is why they can sound too much for a lot of mixes).

IDK that's just my current opinion but I'd love to hear an actual example of a toontrack library getting that sound!


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## dyross (Nov 30, 2022)

newbreednet said:


> I'm devouring the new product videos now.... they've already made several references to the notion that Area 33 is "not just for metal; you can do anything with these kits"...
> 
> 180Gb. A monster!




In this video, they show how to change the sound of a bass drum from vintage rock to modern metal by blending the different mic signals.

Question for you (or anyone else): any good tutorials for how to understand this at a deeper level? I know what kind of sound I like, based on listening, but I don't really know enough technique to actually find those sounds in SD3.

I was looking at Area 33 as a good playground / learning area because the drums apparently sound so natural but can be mixed so flexibly. Am I thinking about this wrong?


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## biomuse (Nov 30, 2022)

Tried an experiment with a very quick mockup using what SDXs I have. Not sure it hits hard enough. Also, no time to add the requisite glitches & rises..

View attachment Flyberpunk.mp3


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## newbreednet (Dec 1, 2022)

dyross said:


> In this video, they show how to change the sound of a bass drum from vintage rock to modern metal by blending the different mic signals.
> 
> Question for you (or anyone else): any good tutorials for how to understand this at a deeper level? I know what kind of sound I like, based on listening, but I don't really know enough technique to actually find those sounds in SD3.
> 
> I was looking at Area 33 as a good playground / learning area because the drums apparently sound so natural but can be mixed so flexibly. Am I thinking about this wrong?


Forgive me - I may have given the impression from some of my ramblings that I know what I'm talking about - I don't! I just like the sound of drums, and sometimes I stumble across a room/kit combination that excites me and matches the idea of a "good sound" that I have in my head. To this extent, then, I can say that a lot of my effort is _trial and error. _

I just watched this documentary again on the making of the Decades SDX. I remembered it because there was a mention of how Al Schmitt would use mics rather than EQ to get the sound he wanted. It's still my impression that Area 33 is "Decades for metal" and this is based on no facts at all! I haven't even had another chance to play with Area 33 yet. I just go by what I hear and what I feel.

When there was the question about the Doom Eternal/Cyberpunk drums, yes, I think a good answer was the GGD Invasion drums. Trial and error again, taught me that those drums are hit super hard and with a super tight snare sound. Give it some compression and it's gonna be in that ball park. 

I've sometimes fallen into the trap of thinking that SD3 is the *only* option for drums. But I own GGD Invasion, and I recently bought that crazy offer for BFD3 + the expansions. I haven't even downloaded that one yet. But from demos I've listened to, I can see why it is referred to as a "natural drum sound" as opposed to a "Toontrack" sound which probably has some sort of pre-mastering over it. 

Anyway, back to Area 33. I think you have the right idea about it; the room sounds great and the huge amount of mics allow it to be shaped in a lot of ways.


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## Mike Stone (Dec 1, 2022)

Tom Ferguson said:


> Well as I said originally I thought the drums in the examples were going to hit harder than they did, which is why I changed my comment to say that that should be possible with an SDX with a bit of work.
> 
> But anyway A/Bing between those kits you mentioned and GGD I'd say the max velocity for the SDX snares sounds noticeably less cracked and sledgehammer-y (including the rimshots). Matt Halpern who plays the drums for most of those libraries is a monster and most drummers struggle to play that loud, if they even want to at all (it's more of a thing pioneered in modern metal bands and is OTT for most genres, part of that GGD 'sound' which is why they can sound too much for a lot of mixes).
> 
> IDK that's just my current opinion but I'd love to hear an actual example of a toontrack library getting that sound!


Yeah, I get your point. I listened to the music examples, and they sounded more electronic in both sample choices and production style to me. Electronic drums is not one of Toontrack's biggest strengths IMO, so you could try some more electronic drums oriented plugins like Triaz or XO.


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## Zanshin (Dec 1, 2022)

I have most of the SDX and GGD suggestions. I was curious so I went comparing max dynamic snare hits.

The Modern and Massive max dynamic snare hits are incredible lol.

Invasion doesn't seem to reach the same max dynamic as M+M.

I agree with @Mike Stone about the Yamaha kit from Death. I feel like it reaches, at the least, the Invasion snares. I also agree with his statements about production, processing, effects etc for the examples. 

For electronic stuff - Elektron Analog Rytm Mk II if you have money to burn and you really want to explore that side of things. The bonus is that it's a hell of a fun machine as well.


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## rectifried (Dec 1, 2022)

re-peat said:


> I think it does, yes. I certainly have also always been ever so slightly bothered by a certain samesoundingness in much that comes out of SD3 and, before that, SD2. No matter whether a sampling session is overseen by Al Schmitt, Michael Ibert, Eddie Kramer, Hugh Padgham or whomever — all of them great producers/engineers (assisted by an equally great team) and each with a *very* different recording approach and sonic signature —, at the end of the production process, all these libraries seem to acquire a sort of same-sounding gloss. Often most noticeable in the snares and cymbals, to my ears. Even if, say, 150 Toontrack snares are all very different from one another in timbre and character — which I agree with and which is also the first argument that people who contest the samesoundingness-charge invariably use —, they all do sound like fruit from the same tree to me.
> 
> I don’t know what it is. Perhaps some type of processing at Toontrack Towers, during the latter stages of the production of these libraries, which gives them that characteristic Toontrack sound. I can’t imagine what else it might be.
> 
> ...





re-peat said:


> _


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 1, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> Yeah, I get your point. I listened to the music examples, and they sounded more electronic in both sample choices and production style to me. Electronic drums is not one of Toontrack's biggest strengths IMO, so you could try some more electronic drums oriented plugins like Triaz or XO.


Well personally I don't think the main drum tones for that are electronic (though they may be a layer in the cyberpunk one) it's more the acoustic drum tones are highly processed to have a similar punchy compressed hi-fi sound to them. 

I think it's easy to hear (since I'm used to listening and mixing these types of drum tones) that there are real OH/room recordings in the drum mix. I have yet to hear a reverb that would sound good at emulating those room tones (for the same reason it's very hard to make dry orchestral instruments sound like they were well recorded in a good room via verb).


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 1, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> I have most of the SDX and GGD suggestions. I was curious so I went comparing max dynamic snare hits.
> 
> The Modern and Massive max dynamic snare hits are incredible lol.
> 
> ...


Yeh tbf those highest dynamic hits are really just for the odd accent. Generally for loudest dynamic you want to be using something more like between 100-120 or so, depending the GGD library.

TBF invasion is my least used GGD library and I haven't really compared those much so you might be right. The room is also smaller so that might have as bit of an effect on how hard it sounds


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## Zanshin (Dec 1, 2022)

Tom Ferguson said:


> Yeh tbf those highest dynamic hits are really just for the odd accent. Generally for loudest dynamic you want to be using something more like between 100-120 or so, depending the GGD library.
> 
> TBF invasion is my least used GGD library and I haven't really compared those much so you might be right. The room is also smaller so that might have as bit of an effect on how hard it sounds


Yes M+M highest dynamic hits are nuclear strikes haha.

I need to pick up the two Matt Halpern kits still, I just have M+M and Invasion.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 1, 2022)

Mike Stone said:


> I have to disagree with this. Try playing with the Yamaha Custom drum set from Death SDX, it sounds great with a proper mix (the extra mic channels are crucial for a big/full sound). Also the Stormtrooper drum set from Fields of Rock is very hard hitting. Again, it's about the mixing and the right effects (and making your own preset). You can definitely get hard enough hits, using the right Toontrack kit IMO. Though some SDX/EZD libraries are made more for pop, and those are definitely more polite. If you're talking about NIN and cyberpunk, there could also be distortion and overdrive effects in the drum production.



I agree with this, but also I think you can do that without buying any extra SDX. I have noticed the newer SDX are more focused on recording the room as part of the sound, and they sound fantastic, don't get me wrong, but they are a bit one-trick pony in each case. Some of the older SDX are more reliant on mixer FX to get the sound...which means you can tweak them a bit more. Well you can do that on the newer kits too, but anyway at some point if you're just going to tweak a kit with FX...you can probably get it done with the factory kit that comes with SD3.

You can probably throw a little transient shaper on just about anything and get it to "hit" harder. The room and drum piece choices have more to do with the tone and reflections.


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 1, 2022)

Zanshin said:


> Yes M+M highest dynamic hits are nuclear strikes haha.
> 
> I need to pick up the two Matt Halpern kits still, I just have M+M and Invasion.


Yeh I still mostly use the original Matt Halpern kit actually, though I'm in the process of using to the architects one more I think as it sounds fantastic. I'm actually am not a huge fan of the PIV kit as much personally, though it still sounds great, just a little weaker IMO.


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 1, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I agree with this, but also I think you can do that without buying any extra SDX. I have noticed the newer SDX are more focused on recording the room as part of the sound, and they sound fantastic, don't get me wrong, but they are a bit one-trick pony in each case. Some of the older SDX are more reliant on mixer FX to get the sound...which means you can tweak them a bit more. Well you can do that on the newer kits too, but anyway at some point if you're just going to tweak a kit with FX...you can probably get it done with the factory kit that comes with SD3.
> 
> You can probably throw a little transient shaper on just about anything and get it to "hit" harder. The room and drum piece choices have more to do with the tone and reflections.


IDK I think you are underselling how important drum tuning, performance, room and micing are. If you talk to a professional metal engineer (well, any recording engineer probably) I think they'd stress how important those things are.


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 1, 2022)

I'm not under selling anything, I said they sound fantastic. I'm just saying, the newer kits are much more dependent on the room (and sure, selected kit pieces and tuning too) and less depending on mixer based FX. They are more completely engineered to sound a certain way using traditional micing techniques in a room.


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 1, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> I'm not under selling anything, I said they sound fantastic. I'm just saying, the newer kits are much more dependent on the room (and sure, selected kit pieces and tuning too) and less depending on mixer based FX. They are more completely engineered to sound a certain way using traditional micing techniques in a room.


Fair enough, I guess I don't really understand what you mean by them being more dependant on the room?


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 1, 2022)

By the room, I meant the way it was recorded in that room with those engineers, using tunings, setup, room arrangement, mic techniques, etc.. It was engineered into the recording. This is the third time I have explained it. Still not clear?

But yes in the newer ones, the room reverberation is much more present then some of the older SDX through some of the mics. The close mics are still there though if don't want that part of it but usually the close mics alone are pretty under-whelming and I personally don't think you need to buy a thousand dollars worth of SDX in order to get some great close mic'd kit pieces to work with.


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 1, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> By the room, I meant the way it was recorded in that room with those engineers, using tunings, setup, room arrangement, mic techniques, etc.. It was engineered into the recording. This is the third time I have explained it. Still not clear?
> 
> But yes in the newer ones, the room reverberation is much more present then some of the older SDX through some of the mics. The close mics are still there though if don't want that part of it but usually the close mics alone are pretty under-whelming and I personally don't think you need to buy a thousand dollars worth of SDX in order to get some great close mic'd kit pieces to work with.


Sorry I'm just finding what you are saying as a bit confused so just trying to get my head around it, no need to get annoyed... 

IMO the room sound is incredibly important to drums (same as orchestral instruments especially orc. perc for example) so I don't agree when you refer to "the newer SDX are more focused on recording the room as part of the sound" as something that can just be replaced with different room recordings and fixed with processing. 

Personally I tend to believe more in getting it right in the recording (tuning, room, micing etc.) and that's the ethos most pros seem to use, but if you think that it's equally valid to fix it in the mix with more processing then fair enough, you do you. (Y)


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 1, 2022)

If you prefer to buy drum libraries with room sound baked into it, then the later SDX are perfect for you!


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 1, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> If you prefer to buy drum libraries with room sound baked into it, then the later SDX are perfect for you!


What do you mean by baked in? How can you buy a recorded drum library that doesn't have the room 'baked in'?


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## Dewdman42 (Dec 1, 2022)

seems you just want to argue with me. I was not meaning to start an argument, just stating my own opinions which are above. Good luck in your drum production!


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## Tom Ferguson (Dec 1, 2022)

Dewdman42 said:


> seems you just want to argue with me. I was not meaning to start an argument, just stating my own opinions which are above. Good luck in your drum production!


I thought we were having a discussion on a forum, but I'm sorry you felt it was more of an argument. Thanks, and good luck in yours too.


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## rectifried (Dec 1, 2022)

I understand where you’re going with this but as a 40 year veteran/bassist of New York and Los Angeles Studios and sessions with many top drummers that’s what drums sound like in a studio there’s variations there’s different players touch but basically that’s a drum set… I think they did many vaiations of a real room and drums within that room

But I think people get used to, especially on this form, since there’s many Composer‘s and sound designers, is that Drums have to have some sort of over the top processing all the time… 
There’s plenty of sample packs to play that game… 

And sadly A lot of tracks on Spotify playlists are just that: processed rhythmic sound… 

These are just drums. simple but well captured.... I use the superior drummer3 stock sounds for five years before I invested in a second pack. the extra mics surround is pretty cool width and height, really is that... but big HD space
What I did is split them out across channels and if I want wacky stuff I certainly know how to do it. or layer a wacky thing with it.. the workflow with SD/EZ3 now is pretty advanced... theres more than I know about for sure, under the hood..


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## dyross (Dec 8, 2022)

I've tried out Fields of Rock and Area 33 and have to say, at least for the sound I'm after, I'm liking Legacy of Rock the most; just love the Ludwig snares in LoR! I may resell one or both of these once 30 days is up.

Unrelated question - I've been listening to a lot of Gavin Harrison and he has a nice custom set of small Zildjian bells 4.5"-7":









Gavin Harrison


Gavin Harrison started playing the drums at age 6 inspired by his father who was a jazz trumpet player. He turned professional at 16. Some of the folks Gavin has played with include: King Crimson, Porcupine Tree, The Pineapple Thief, Level 42, Incognito, OSI, Paul Young, Iggy Pop, Lewis Taylor




zildjian.com





I can't seem to find small cymbals like this in sets I already have (the lowest I see are 8" splashes several places). I found shows a 6" Meinl splash in Gospel EZX, but not sure I want to shell out for that for just this cymbal. Any thoughts? Do folks have success with the cymbal tuning?


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## Mike Stone (Dec 8, 2022)

dyross said:


> I've tried out Fields of Rock and Area 33 and have to say, at least for the sound I'm after, I'm liking Legacy of Rock the most; just love the Ludwig snares in LoR! I may resell one or both of these once 30 days is up.
> 
> Unrelated question - I've been listening to a lot of Gavin Harrison and he has a nice custom set of small Zildjian bells 4.5"-7":
> 
> ...


I find the splash and china crash cymbals to be excellent in Death SDX. Hitmaker also has lots of great cymbals. Right now I'm experimenting with the Phil Collins kit. When using the additional mics, especially the overhead ones, you get a proper amount of punch with the toms. Then I use the hi-hat from RoH Marble Room (has a more articulated attack), and either the Copland snare, or one of the Ludwig snares from LoR (some EQing is necessary) - and you've got an outstanding rock drum kit IMO. (Getting expensive this...)


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## dyross (Dec 11, 2022)

Does anyone have any D&D presets for Rock that they'd be cool with sharing?


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## Mike Stone (Dec 12, 2022)

dyross said:


> Does anyone have any D&D presets for Rock that they'd be cool with sharing?


For those that want to try out a preset, this should hopefully be a decent starting point. It obviously has to be adjusted for a given mix.


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