# I got a message on Soundcloud about licencing my music...



## Mornats (Mar 27, 2020)

So, today I got a message on Soundcloud from Licier International:

LICIER INTERNATIONAL
Hi Paul
Hope all is well. I just came across your wonderful compositions.
We are a Music Company based in Switzerland and would be interested in a non-exclusive Licensing of your songs. So we could include them into some of our compilations.
Here is an example:
open.spotify.com/album/3cmX1IIdwp…7nRZ-kI_Q5QsMfXA
Should you be interested or have queries please send me an email to: ******.com [I removed the email]
I would be looking forward to hearing from you.
Best regards
David

Now, I'm a hobbyist and completely new to anything about licencing and my first thoughts were that this is spam but I wanted to check if anyone had heard of Licier? If they're genuine then they warrant a reply either way I think but I do get so many spam message on Soundcloud that it naturally makes me suspicious.


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## Kony (Mar 27, 2020)

I checked their website - they seem legit but small. I would arrange for a video call - should be okay to ask for one these days.


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## Mornats (Mar 29, 2020)

Yeah, I did some poking around myself and thought the same. I'll get back to them and ask a bunch of questions and maybe have a chat. The playlist they linked has some tracks that are in a similar genre and style to some of mine, so that helps distance this from spam too.


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## Mornats (Apr 1, 2020)

So this is the entirety of the licence agreement from them:

"Non-Exclusive right only to market, distribute, re-distribute and sell the above noted recordings as singles, EPs, Albums or in compilations compiled by Licensee."

Any alarm bells ringing? It's a small fee but I wasn't intending to sell anything and I like the tracks on the compilations they've done so far and I'm thinking it would be good tracks to sit alongside.


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## Hywel (Apr 4, 2020)

Hi @Mornats 
Did you take this any further with the Licier International Company.
They've recently reached out to me as well and have sent a very brief licence agreement and a promise to pay me 75USD if I sign.
Surely there must be a catch?


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## Mornats (Apr 4, 2020)

Hywel said:


> Hi @Mornats
> Did you take this any further with the Licier International Company.
> They've recently reached out to me as well and have sent a very brief licence agreement and a promise to pay me 75USD if I sign.
> Surely there must be a catch?



Yeah I asked them for the licence terms and got the same brief licence agreement and the $75 payment promise. I've been listening to some of the music they've put into compilations and found one of the artists on Soundcloud. I'm going to reach out to the artist to see if they have anything to say about Licier.


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## David Kudell (Apr 4, 2020)

Wait, so they get to sell your music a bunch of times and you only make $75? Please don’t do that.


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## sIR dORT (Apr 4, 2020)

David Kudell said:


> Wait, so they get to sell your music a bunch of times and you only make $75? Please don’t do that.


+1. I don't know much but I know 1 up-front payment for a bunch of songs, especially if it's only 75, isn't good.


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## Per Boysen (Apr 4, 2020)

A fair deal, IMHO, would be if they share 50% of what they make on selling licenses for using your music AND that you should keep the right to receive future performance money (when your stuff get played in public media, normally piped into your wallet by your PRO or Publisher)


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## Mornats (Apr 4, 2020)

I mentioned this above also but this is the licence agreement in full. It doesn't mention anything about performance money. I'd honestly have expected more detail and based on what's been said so far, I'm inclined to say a big fat no to this.

"Non-Exclusive right only to market, distribute, re-distribute and sell the above noted recordings as singles, EPs, Albums or in compilations compiled by Licensee."


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## SamC (Apr 7, 2020)

Hywel said:


> Surely there must be a catch?



That *is* the catch. They get to monetise your music and throw you a measly $75.

They’re being intentionally obtuse by sending a “brief” license agreement.

Sounds like a really bad deal. They’re not even trying.


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## Hywel (Apr 7, 2020)

SamC said:


> That *is* the catch. They get to monetise your music and throw you a measly $75.
> 
> They’re being intentionally obtuse by sending a “brief” license agreement.
> 
> Sounds like a really bad deal. They’re not even trying.


I agree with you and have declined.


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## Mornats (Apr 8, 2020)

As have I.


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## marclawsonmusic (Jul 1, 2020)

More info... 

I got an email from these folks this week and asked "how are performance royalties handled under this agreement?"

Their response:



> Hi Marc
> 
> We can unfortunately only do a royalty split for artists with at least 50 000 monthly listeners. Otherwise the involved back office work (invoicing, accounting etc.) wouldn’t be in proportion to the payed out amount.



So in the end, this is basically for 'exposure'.

For a minute there, I got excited and thought... 'wow, is someone really interested in my music?' LOL


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## Jay Panikkar (Jul 1, 2020)

The shtick is that they throw you some crumbs to use your tracks to build _their_ library portfolio. They'll probably rebrand, remix/modify and resell your tracks on non-English markets or something of that sort.

I suspect many people fall for it, because I see this coming up over and over again on social media.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jul 1, 2020)

marclawsonmusic said:


> More info...
> 
> I got an email from these folks this week and asked "how are performance royalties handled under this agreement?"
> 
> ...



“Back office work?”. I’d run for the hills.


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## Moon Mountaineer (Jul 27, 2020)

Hi everyone,
I am new to VI and actually came across this thread doing a search on Licier International, so thanks for the heads-up!

I got the exact same message from them via Soundcloud, and will be declining their offer. I wasn't offered any payment at all and was given the same very brief 'Compilation Agreement' to sign. 

I think giving a publishing company the right to sell and distribute my music, for zero royalty split, and with no control over where it ends up is a really bad deal.

They are exploiting emerging artists by offering them 'exposure' but in reality there are many other options to gain exposure on your own terms, such as getting tracks added to playlists.


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## Mornats (Jul 27, 2020)

So true. They're targeting people like me, who are hobbyists and aren't expecting to make money from their music. So they dangle a token small fee and the promise of the extra exposure to us. It can be quite tempting to say screw it, what do I have to lose so I suspect ma y do take them up on it.

I'm still tempted to package up a few of my best works into a few mini EPs to go on Spotify etc. via CDBaby or other services. So at least this offer has got me thinking about going it alone.


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## Moon Mountaineer (Jul 27, 2020)

That's what made me think twice, because I noticed the musicians on their playlists didn't have huge amounts of followers so wondered how much 'exposure' being on their compilations would really bring.

I use Landr for mastering and digital distribution, and they also give you some good tips about promoting your music. There's a lot you can do DIY these days without a publisher. Good luck!


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## Keith Theodosiou (Jul 27, 2020)

To be honest, on Soundcloud, i have had loads of these messages. The one reason why i never reply to them is simple.
You upload a track. Within minutes, you get 3 or four likes and you may get one of these messages.
BUT what you will notice is, your track has had NO plays whatsoever.

There is your answer (most of the time)


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## Mornats (Jul 27, 2020)

I get those too Keith but this was a little different. My stats say they've listened (or at least they _triggered_ a listen) to around 50 tracks of mine. Their email didn't smell like the spams I usually get either.


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## Keith Theodosiou (Jul 27, 2020)

Mornats said:


> I get those too Keith but this was a little different. My stats say they've listened (or at least they _triggered_ a listen) to around 50 tracks of mine. Their email didn't smell like the spams I usually get either.


Ok thats fair enough, just read the deals very carefully though. You are the creator, why should they get more money than you.


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## Mattia Chiappa (Jul 27, 2020)

If you're interested in licensing and don't know where to start, I would suggest starting from royalty free publishers that don't require any audition. There's a big learning curve and while it won't be financially rewarding for a long time, it will be an invaluable experience and teach you a lot about your music and the global market. For a total buyout to be worthwhile, it would have to be a much bigger amount in my opinion.


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## auratoneX (Mar 21, 2021)

Can someone share the agreement text or attach it here? maybe between all of us we can help each other to review such clauses and see if we find something strange that points to some kind of dirty business or if everything is fair. It is also important never to sign a publishing agreement, that comes attached with the license agreement if this last is not super clear or if its sent without any advice and you have no idea what publishing is, some labels groups im not gonna mention here but based in Germany as far as I know, have this way to operate.

Be careful before signing anything, always seek advice! or at some point you'll be very regretful. Also do a research for people who have had experience with the label and look for information...


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## Macrawn (Mar 21, 2021)

Your stuff is good enough to attract some attention. No idea about your offer though. Did the language say you retain the rights and can continue to do what you please with the tracks ie release your own albums with it and so forth. 

I checked out the guys soundpage and your music does seem like a fit to what he's got there so I see why the interest is there. 

You probably won't see much in terms of money but perhaps would be good exposure. 

I really can't say if it's good or not or what the fine print says. 

Either way perhaps it's a sign you should be getting your stuff out there more beyond Soundcloud if you have not already.


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## Mornats (Mar 22, 2021)

auratoneX said:


> Can someone share the agreement text or attach it here? maybe between all of us we can help each other to review such clauses and see if we find something strange that points to some kind of dirty business or if everything is fair. It is also important never to sign a publishing agreement, that comes attached with the license agreement if this last is not supper clear or if its sent without any advice and you have no idea what publishing is, some labels groups im not gonna mention here but based in Germany, have this way to operate.
> 
> Be careful before signing anything, always seek advice! or at some point you'll be very regretful. Also do a research for people who have had experience with the label and look for information...


This is pretty much the agreement text:
"Non-Exclusive right only to market, distribute, re-distribute and sell the above noted recordings as singles, EPs, Albums or in compilations compiled by Licensee." - not much here which is worrying.



Macrawn said:


> Your stuff is good enough to attract some attention. No idea about your offer though. Did the language say you retain the rights and can continue to do what you please with the tracks ie release your own albums with it and so forth.
> 
> I checked out the guys soundpage and your music does seem like a fit to what he's got there so I see why the interest is there.
> 
> ...


Thanks  It has prompted me to think about putting a small collection of my best stuff on other places myself but I've just not had the time for that yet. What they're offering is more or less inclusion in a playlist but they make money from it not me. So if I release it myself and get my tracks into playlists somehow then I'll have achieved the same goal but retain all rights and ability to make money from my music.


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## auratoneX (Mar 22, 2021)

Mornats said:


> "Non-Exclusive right only to market, distribute, re-distribute and sell the above noted recordings as singles, EPs, Albums or in compilations compiled by Licensee." - not much here which is worrying.


Ok, but if an agreement only says the above, where are your Grants? how long the license is? 4 years? 10 years? do they offer royalties? do they state the $75 in the agreement? do they pay such a dollars in advance?

At least is Non-Exclusive: "_A *Non*-*Exclusive Licence* grants to the *licensee* the right to use the intellectual property, *but means that the licensor remains free to exploit the same intellectual property and to allow any number of other licensees to also exploit the same intellectual property.*_"

In this case you are the licensor, who provide to the licensee a permission to use your work, but you need to be sure your label understand your rights as sometimes the label not even understand his own asked terms or the rights that the creator have above his work. It is also very important to never, ever, waive any of your rights, just assign those necessary for the sole purpose of distributing your music. 

By the way, speaking about labels that can be trusted or not, I would take a look at this article I found:

https://notyourjukebox.com/2020/07/08/widespread-fraud-is-taking-money-credit-away-from-artists/


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## GtrString (Mar 22, 2021)

Don’t do it, that wording does not seem legit. Who knows what they are scheming. 75$ is nothing.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Mar 22, 2021)

Mattia Chiappa said:


> If you're interested in licensing and don't know where to start, I would suggest starting from royalty free publishers that don't require any audition.


What are some of these publishers? If you are able to share.


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## Macrawn (Mar 22, 2021)

Mornats said:


> This is pretty much the agreement text:
> "Non-Exclusive right only to market, distribute, re-distribute and sell the above noted recordings as singles, EPs, Albums or in compilations compiled by Licensee." - not much here which is worrying.
> 
> 
> Thanks  It has prompted me to think about putting a small collection of my best stuff on other places myself but I've just not had the time for that yet. What they're offering is more or less inclusion in a playlist but they make money from it not me. So if I release it myself and get my tracks into playlists somehow then I'll have achieved the same goal but retain all rights and ability to make money from my music.


Yeah, the more I think about it, the less it seems worth it. Even if the guy is legit you are getting like the equivalent to a dinner in a restaurant and he gets all the upside for using your tracks. 

A little leg work on your part could accomplish the same. Put together a compilation and promote it yourself. 

Plus I don't like it when people contact me for things like this (non music related). I'd never do a deal with someone who cold called me without any real connection to my network.


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## robgb (Mar 22, 2021)

Come on, guys. When has the music industry ever taken advantage of or ripped off the artists? After all, we always retain our rights and get the biggest piece of the pie, right? Right?!?!?!?


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## auratoneX (Mar 23, 2021)

robgb said:


> Come on, guys. When has the music industry ever taken advantage of or ripped off the artists? After all, we always retrain our rights and get the biggest piece of the pie, right? Right?!?!?!?


or one word: Amuse


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## MusiquedeReve (Mar 23, 2021)

Per Boysen said:


> A fair deal, IMHO, would be if they share 50% of what they make on selling licenses for using your music AND that you should keep the right to receive future performance money (when your stuff get played in public media, normally piped into your wallet by your PRO or Publisher)


...and, add in a clause regarding being to able to audit their accounting of any sales made


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