# Soundcard with monitor management



## noiseboyuk (Oct 2, 2012)

Looking to replace my rubbish M Audio Fast Track Pro soundcard. Here's my feature-wish list, in order of importance:

1. Rock solid drivers, good latency.

2. 2 XLR inputs minimum (pref 2 more line inputs too)

3. 6 outputs (by whatever method)

4. Multi-client ASIO drivers.

5. Monitor management, including volume, dim applying to surround monitoring.

I think that little list eliminates every soundcard on the market, but I would be delighted to be proven wrong. The RME range is closest, but partially falls at number 5 - you can gang together 6 outputs, but dim / talkback functions won't work. The M Audio C600 sounds poorly made and after endless frustration with the FTP I'll be delighted to be shot of M Audio. Steinberg make the UR28, and an unsupported multiclient driver, but the forums are full of bugs and problems with it. No 1 is the most important feature on my list.

Anyone else got any ideas?


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## mark812 (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm in the same position (sick of Fast Track Pro's drivers and mediocre sound quality) and I've been researching for some time now. 

I narrowed it down to Steinberg UR28m (lot of features, great design, but very little user feedback on the internet) and RME Babyface (much pricier).


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 2, 2012)

mark812 @ Tue Oct 02 said:


> I'm in the same position (sick of Fast Track Pro's drivers and mediocre sound quality) and I've been researching for some time now.
> 
> I narrowed it down to Steinberg UR28m (lot of features, great design, but very little user feedback on the internet) and RME Babyface (much pricier).



Hi Mark - in theory the UR28 is the answer to my prayers, but look on the Steinberg forum, and it's not pretty. I actually put up a thread there yesterday to see if it is really as bad as it seems, but no replies.

I tried the Babyface at the weekend - it's very good (steep learning curve though), but such as shame that they don't really support surround monitoring. I asked on their forums, and they said they have "no plans to do so for the forseeable future". It's not the end of the world - you can at least gang the outputs, but it's not ideal.

It's really surprising that so few manufacturers are taking surround seriously. It's been the default delivery requirement in film for many years, and is now very common in TV as well. The C600 looks like a well thought through product, torpedoed by their hopeless QC - I wish a better company would grab the bull by the horns.


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## mark812 (Oct 3, 2012)

I continued with my research and found this one last night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-FLHEPSgwE (Roland Octa-Capture)

It's in the same price range as Babyface and seems fantastic, even better than Babyface. Reviews are great.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ ... re/reviews

There is also a smaller version, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sb1ES7nyFs (Quad-Capture)


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 3, 2012)

mark812 @ Wed Oct 03 said:


> I continued with my research and found this one last night:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-FLHEPSgwE (Roland Octa-Capture)
> 
> ...



It looks like a very nice unit, but it's not for me. There doesn't seem to be any kind of monitor management for 5.1, no dim button etc, and there's no multi client drivers.

I've noticed something else while researching all this - hardly any soundcards have XLR outputs - this is also true for pretty much all mixing desks that are sub several thousand. Yet most active monitors have XLR inputs. I think very few products are really designed from the ground up for serious small studio 5.1 work.

Currently for me the best solution is the Babyface, combined with the Behringer ADA8000 - http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ADA8000.aspx , which is amazingly cheap. This would give 10 XLR inputs and 10 XLR outputs, and the Fireface can at least control the volume of multiple outputs simultaneously, even though it can't dim / talkback.


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## wst3 (Oct 3, 2012)

a word of caution on the ADA8000... I've recently seen several of the Behringer Ultra-Pro products give up the ghost after just a couple of years in service. This past week I had to replace a pair of their 6x2 splitter/mixer boxes because they developed a serious crosstalk problem.

If you go that route be sure to provide LOTS of air space around them - they do not seem to like a lot of heat, and they get really hot, so you need to keep them cool.

In general I'd say that's good advice anyway, but the trend lately seems to be building gear for smaller racks with less air-space around them.

Used to be that you ALWAYS left at least 1RU between any two devices. Now some manufacturers caution against vents in front, or even air space. Toa makes a 4x250W amplifier that is 1 RU tall, and they claim you can stack up to five them together. I've seen systems with four of them, and they do work, and they don't seem to die, at least not from heat<G>!


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## rayinstirling (Oct 3, 2012)

I'll take that on board to Bill,
Thanks for mentioning the ADA8000 here Guy, because I've started using my MOTU 2408mk3 again since downloading the latest drivers. 
Cheers
Ray


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## Reegs (Oct 3, 2012)

Another vote for MOTU here. 

The MOTU 828mk3 has XLR outputs for its mains. :D
Very solid on Windows too. I'm running 32-bit, for the record, on an older system, but I can track 16 at 24/44.1 for two hours without a hiccup. 2 good clean pres, 16 channels ADAT, and 8 more analog outputs that you can route to your heart's content. I have not used it for surround work, however I imagine it would work fine.

Total speculation here, but the signal you get out of an XLR connection is the same that you get out of TRS (balanced). And if you've looked at the back of interfaces lately, the number of connections isn't getting any smaller...


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## mark812 (Oct 5, 2012)

What about NI Komplete Audio 6?

4 TRS and 2 SPDIF outs, 2 XLR and 2 balanced line in inputs, Cirrus Logic convertors, very low latency and apparently very stable drivers. Monitor control and great price. Great reviews too here, http://www.gearjunkies.com/news_info.php?news_id=6892 (here) and here.

After reading these reviews I'm seriously considering it. Anyone using it as a main interface maybe?


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 5, 2012)

Komplete Audio isn't good for 5.1 Mark, as outs 5 and 6 are SPDIF only. Shame - good package otherwise.

Ray and Reegs - that MOTU looks like a really nice unit. More firepower than I need... also I don't see any XLRs for ins or outs (or mic preamps?) Just looking at their site now... http://www.motu.com/products/pciaudio/2408/specs.html .

Oh, and you're quite right Reegs - there's no fidelity difference between balanced TRS and XLR, I just like keeping everything XLR if I can because it's a rock solid connector.


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## Reegs (Oct 5, 2012)

Ray's got a slightly different unit than mine.

Check the 828 - 2 XLR-fed preamps and 2 XLR outputs.

Since you mention it's a bit more firepower than desired, look into the Ultralight. 2 XLR pres, 2 TRS mains, 8 additional TRS outs.

Pete


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 5, 2012)

Reegs @ Sat Oct 06 said:


> Ray's got a slightly different unit than mine.
> 
> Check the 828 - 2 XLR-fed preamps and 2 XLR outputs.
> 
> ...



Thanks Pete, again that has some great features and looks like a very useful unit. Finally a sensible software monitoring section - just click between stereo, 5.1 and 7.1. The two main strikes against for me are (I think?) no multi-client ASIO drivers, and slightly fiddly hardware monitoring - it's a very small control, and no dim etc. So for me, the Babyface is still winning...


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## Reegs (Oct 6, 2012)

I agree about the monitoring -- it's too small and the dim functionality is only available from the CueMix software monitor. On my short list is a dedicated knob. (The TC Electronic looks like it would work fine, but the Radial MC3 is sooo sexy.)

It does do multi-client asio--I just confirmed noodling around on the Aria Player standalone while having Sonar's metronome tick behind it.

I was also between the 828 and the Babyface. I do a lot of live tracking so the rack solution with extra IO expandability won for me. And what a certain retailer had in stock during a sale also influenced my decision. But the Babyface is an excellent unit from what I see and read, with excellent resale value. o-[][]-o


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## rayinstirling (Oct 6, 2012)

The ADA8000 unit is a good option for me because I already owned a 2408mk3 which doesn't have XLR inputs. Outputs are not an issue for me. These 8 input channels connected to the 2408mk3 via the optical connection will do just dandy for my needs.

I had stopped using the MOTU unit fearing it had a fault (intermittent channel dropouts etc) but the latest MOTU legacy drivers seem to have cured whatever the issues were.
It now seems very stable.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 6, 2012)

Reegs @ Sat Oct 06 said:


> I agree about the monitoring -- it's too small and the dim functionality is only available from the CueMix software monitor. On my short list is a dedicated knob. (The TC Electronic looks like it would work fine, but the Radial MC3 is sooo sexy.)
> 
> It does do multi-client asio--I just confirmed noodling around on the Aria Player standalone while having Sonar's metronome tick behind it.
> 
> I was also between the 828 and the Babyface. I do a lot of live tracking so the rack solution with extra IO expandability won for me. And what a certain retailer had in stock during a sale also influenced my decision. But the Babyface is an excellent unit from what I see and read, with excellent resale value. o-[][]-o



Interesting - reading around ( http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/arc ... 11680.html ) , it looks like it's not officially supported as multi-client, but kinda works with a following wind. As for monitor controllers - Babyface takes some beating there, looks better to me than the MC3. One big volume knob on a horizontal surface, stab it to dim (as long as you're not in surround!). Great. The Steinberg controller hardware looks very good there too.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 15, 2012)

Well, I have a new possible plan - an Echo Layla 3G paired with either the Behringer Xenyx Control1 or the Mackie Big Knob monitor controller. Not finding the ideal combo anywhere in one box, but this pairing does look good - much prefer the thought of a dedicated monitor control unit over a desk.


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## Dom (Oct 15, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Tue Oct 02 said:


> The RME range is closest, but partially falls at number 5 - you can gang together 6 outputs, but dim / talkback functions won't work.



The Dim function works here in RME TotalMix in surround, with all the output faders ganged, FYI.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 15, 2012)

Oh, they said it wouldn't! Useful info, thanks Dom. What a dilemma...


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## Dom (Oct 15, 2012)

RME said that? Strange. 

In any case, I using an UFX. The BabyFace wouldn't have have enough outputs for surround plus cue mixes anyway.

So all you need with DIM is that it drops down all the outputs by a specified amount of dB? Should be simple enough.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean with the the talkback and surround - they shouldn't be related. Again with RME talkback simply gets routed to your cue channels, not the speaker outputs.

FWIW the RME drivers are know to be very stable. Converter quality (on the UFX at least) is also top-notch.

Btw, it doesn't make a difference in quality if you have XLR or TRS (balanced) jack outputs, you just need a different cable.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 15, 2012)

Dagnammit, the Mackie and Behringer (which is a clone really) won't work in surround, so back to the drawing board there.



Dom @ Mon Oct 15 said:


> RME said that? Strange.
> 
> In any case, I using an UFX. The BabyFace wouldn't have have enough outputs for surround plus cue mixes anyway.
> 
> ...



Babyface would have enough outs via the ADAT I think? As for talkback (not that it's gonna be a big deal for me), i believe the idea is that pressing the button (optionally) dims the monitoring - could be wrong though.

I've heard nothing but good things about the drivers. And as I wrote above - yes, I realise the quality of balanced 1/4" and XLR is the same, but given the choice I'd always go for the latter as the connector is so much more robust.

So I'm back to the Babyface as the best option. It's annoying that its bus powered - if I route my laptop through it, the main PC will need to be switched on in order to hear it. The alternative is to route it all through a separate mixer.


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## Dom (Oct 17, 2012)

I realise that it costs more than the Babyface plus Behringer ADA8000 but the RME Fireface UCX is a good option for you . This gives you great conversion. RME TotalMix FX is totally flexible in terms of your surround set up, and with its filters and eq can also handle bass-management if you need it.

I really wouldn't give too much weight to XLR connectors, except from the mic inputs of course. Balanced jacks or DB25 are fine in a non-live, non-portable situation. As you point out, hardly any interfaces have XLRs on all the in- or outputs anyway. None of the Apogee and Avid 192, HD I/O ranges have XLR connectors either, just DB-25s. I wouldn't choose a Behringer converter just for its XLRs.

Automatic dim on talkback: Again RME's Totalmix can do that, but I would always turn this off. My analogue desk does this and it can make two-way conversations with the artist tricky because of the need to release the talkback button in order to hear what they say. Automatic dim on talkback is IMO only really useful for people who monitor very loudly or when the artist is monitoring on a PA rather than on headphones. Again, I don't think this should be a dealbreaker for your choice of sound card. 

Dom


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 17, 2012)

Cheers Dom - the thing about the UCX is that hardware-wise it doesn't have a good monitor section (though I appreciate the software side of it is great). The Babyface is better in that regard, strangely.

I'm actually wavering towards the Steinberg again, though the drivers feel like a bit of a risk. Got a good review from SOS. It's EXACTLY what I need in terms of features, and I won't need a separate desk either. I might try the multiclient Steinberg ASIO wrapper too - http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=48 . I'm beginning to think I'll get it, and if it doesn't work out just sell it....


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## mark812 (Oct 17, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Wed Oct 17 said:


> Cheers Dom - the thing about the UCX is that hardware-wise it doesn't have a good monitor section (though I appreciate the software side of it is great). The Babyface is better in that regard, strangely.
> 
> I'm actually wavering towards the Steinberg again, though the drivers feel like a bit of a risk. Got a good review from SOS. It's EXACTLY what I need in terms of features, and I won't need a separate desk either. I might try the multiclient Steinberg ASIO wrapper too - http://www.steinberg.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=48 . I'm beginning to think I'll get it, and if it doesn't work out just sell it....



Guy, could you please post your opinion here about UR28m if you try it..as I can't decide between getting UR28m or Komplete Audio 6. Thanks.

BTW, did you find that review in printed SOS or? What did they say?


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 17, 2012)

mark812 @ Wed Oct 17 said:


> Guy, could you please post your opinion here about UR28m if you try it..as I can't decide between getting UR28m or Komplete Audio 6. Thanks.
> 
> BTW, did you find that review in printed SOS or? What did they say?



Stupidly I missed that months mag, so I paid my 99p and downloaded the review. As they pointed out, there is very little comepetition - they suggested the M Audio (PAH) C400, but that can't do 5.1, and nor can the Komplete Audio unit. They probably didn't think of the Babyface. Their final verdict says



> All in all, the UR28M represents great value for money and will appeal to those who require a good complement of analogue outputs to facilitate surround formats or to A-B between multiple pairs of studio monitors. What it lacks in sheer number of analogue inputs and MIDI connectivity, it easily makes up for with its range of monitor controls and stand-alone operation capabilities. Latency-free foldback effects, the bundled VST plug-ins and the intuitive dspMixFx software make the package all the more impressive.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 18, 2012)

I've used Cubase since '97, and I mostly love it-however, Steinberg's record with hardware is simply terrible. Their acquisition by Yamaha may have fixed that somewhat, but I'd wade very carefully into those waters.

I use the MOTU UltraLite mk3. It has most of what you're looking for, but it IS tiny. The hardware knobs control the onscreen software-I mostly use that, but I know I'm in a minority as most people seem to prefer knobs and sliders. I _was _hoping for a Mackie Big Knob sort of solution, one assignable knob, but the UltraLite is not controlled by MIDI, so I doubt that's ever gonna happen. Still, it does a lot for a little.


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 20, 2012)

Dammit, Larry, I suspect those are wise words. I was literally about to press "Order" on the UR28M when an invisible force stopped me. My hand left the mouse, rose up slowly of its own volition and slapped me hard round both cheeks.

I took it as a sign.

Maybe it also had something to do with the other thread on the Steinberg forum I'd recently found that said that EW Play makes the UR28M crash on a project reload. So renaming a file makes it crash (bug logged 11 months ago, not fixed), so does Play. I needed that slap.

So I'm back to the RME. I keep looking at item one on my list - drivers. I know RME are creme de la creme. Natively multi-client. I know the surround option will cost me ultimately, but I'd rather have it a) solid and b) with the good hardware monitor control too. I figure I can put my laptop in on the spdif input, which means I won't need anything else initially, all the while I stick with stereo.

It has to be done... sigh.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 20, 2012)

noiseboyuk @ Sat Oct 20 said:


> Dammit, Larry, I suspect those are wise words. I was literally about to press "Order" on the UR28M when an invisible force stopped me. My hand left the mouse, rose up slowly of its own volition and slapped me hard round both cheeks.
> 
> I took it as a sign.
> 
> ...



Cheers, Guy-good luck!


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