# Intercepted (live vs mockup)



## Pietro (Jun 8, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I'm not sure why I didn't post this before. I used an opportunity and recorded a cue with an orchestra on Dynamedion open sessions in March.

Links to music:
Intercepted - mockup version
Intercepted - live version

And here's the score for your full enjoyment :D:
http://www.piotrmusial.com/piotr_musial_-_intercepted_full_score_in_c.pdf (Intercepted - Full Score in C)

The live version includes some additional virtual instruments, mostly percussion (limited number of musicians in the orchestra) and synths.

The mockup is so-so, as I composed the cue with recording in mind. I also made some changes in the arrangement during orchestration.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, especially orchestration and what could be done better (or what's bad). I'm learning fairly quickly, so all comments in this field are most welcome.

Enjoy!
- Piotr


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## David3D (Jun 8, 2011)

This is great!

Being new to this game, its great to be able to compare a live take of an orchestral score to a mock up version to observe the differences between them!

This is an amazing piece of music. Well done!


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## Hannes_F (Jun 8, 2011)

Nice work! The live version is more transparent and more glued at the same time and obviously has more arc and musicality. However I miss a bit of the oomph of the mockup especially in the strings, also there are some intonation issues here and there and it is mastered less agressively which I feel takes a bit away in direct comparision. All in all great writing and opportunity.


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## Ed (Jun 8, 2011)

Love the live one!!


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## Pietro (Jun 9, 2011)

Thanks for listening, guys!

There's a lot of place for improvement in the orchestration. I guess, I'm a little smarter now, that I made some sloppy moves here or there (like with brass voicing at the end) and hear the results.

I could probably keep improving this forever, but you gotta finish at some point :D.

Thanks again!
- Piotr


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## Dracarys (Jun 9, 2011)

What Hannes said, but I liked both versions a lot.
I feel a bit of dynamic range was lost in the live version.
Great none the less.


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## Pietro (Jun 10, 2011)

Thanks!

Yeah, I agree on the missing power in strings. At first I though it will be a problem. This is most likely a matter of place, recording techniques and ensemble size (14-10-8-6-5) used by Dynamedion. Partially of course - I could've used the strings a little differently when orchestrating or asked the musicians to squeeze some more from their instruments. 

I got used to it though.

I believe, that if you didn't hear the mockup to compare to, you wouldn't comment on that . 

Cheers!
- Piotr


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## mverta (Jun 10, 2011)

Piotr -

Yes, you were a touch shy on string players, but you're right, the comparison is what's drawing attention to that; the live version sounds fine on its own. One thing that would've worked nicely is to have trumpets doing Harmon muted chords at 52 - I think you've got a synth patch doing a pseudo version of that as it is...

Other than that, orchestration-wise, I think things are a little dense. You seem more comfortable changing orchestrational colors section-to-section, but not so much within each section. Look at marks B, D, and F: you've got woods essentially doubling strings every time. Don't be afraid to change things up a LOT more, so that sections feel fresh. You'd have gotten a lot of mileage from relieving horns from the burden of melody so much - trumpets alone, trombones alone, even woods/strings alone would've been welcome colors to take the lead at times. I dig the Williams _Lost In Space_-type woodwind figures, naturally - we hardly ever hear that sort of flourish anymore, so suddenly it's distinctive again. Oh, and performance-wise: I'd scale all the dynamics back by a degree. It would help recover some dynamic range, give the piece more room to grow and develop, and bring out more varied colors and tones in the instruments. Remember: loud in the room is not how you judge loud on a recording. Pianissimo can sound blaring on a recording if you want it to, it's all relative. Also, would've been nice to hold that last fermata a good long time; let it ring out. 

Also: Time to get Sibelius 

Nice work, and kudos for posting the score. Should be a pre-requisite for posting, in my opinion 

_Mike


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## Hannes_F (Jun 10, 2011)

Pietro @ Fri Jun 10 said:


> This is most likely a matter of place, recording techniques and ensemble size



I think it is a matter of playing more intensely. Conductor could have fixed it with a few words.


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## mverta (Jun 10, 2011)

It's not an articulation problem, he's out-gunned, size-wise for the material and context. 100% on that.


_Mike


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## Hannes_F (Jun 10, 2011)

mverta @ Fri Jun 10 said:


> It's not an articulation problem, he's out-gunned, size-wise for the material and context. 100% on that.
> 
> 
> _Mike



Mike, maybe I don't understand what you are saying with out-gunned (language problem) but probably that the strings simply could not play louder.

What I mean is not so much a problem of loudness. 16 first violins would be monster size and compared to 14 they play merely 0.6 dB louder ... so 14 1st violins is actually already pretty much monster size, too.

I think it is more a question of timbre and agressiveness in the bowing. Many film composers today love ostinatos to be played very sharp and crisp for trailer-like music, almost sul ponticello. This cuts through better then, almost regardless the section size. Point is, it is a bit uncomforteable to play like that, real work, in contrast to the quite relaxed spiccato.

Other than that I understand where you are coming from with the orchestration being a bit dense.


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## mverta (Jun 10, 2011)

14 1sts isn't monster, and the rest of his section sizes is modest. I typically use (as do many others for this type of material) 16-16-12-10-8. It's what I'm using next month. As Conrad Pope once told me: Have lots of strings!  

You can certainly do great things with modest groups (see de Falla, Copland), but for this size brass/woods, with this material, at those dynamics? Definitely want more representation at the desk-level. That, and yes, more aggression in the playing might've been welcome, but across the board I hear missing bodies. The problem is somewhat lightened by the relatively conservative context the strings are being used in, but nonetheless...


_Mike


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## Pietro (Jun 11, 2011)

Mike, thanks for chiming in.

Yeah, the ensemble was relatively (to the context) small. Anyway, looking at the video from recording, they still had some spare to give, it's just that I was in the booth during the recording, not the hall and what I heard in the headphones was rough and nowhere near the final mix, so I thought it's still "mixable".

I agree with the dynamics - the main theme was ff, and that was too much. During the recording, we ended up with only single forte and one trumpet playing the theme instead of 2 (intonation but also too much power). I'm still learning how to properly balance this.

I thought about muted trumpets there - that was a good idea. I'm not sure why I didn't use it . I believe I settled for synthesizers, as I didn't want to risk any noise or delay putting mutes on, and always ment to use the synthesizers anyway in C and E.

Colors change within sections - if I understand what you ment by this, then yes, this is the next level for me yet. Sort of "microcounterpointing", which always makes the arrangement much more interesting, although I quite like the simplicity, and block-quality of the arrangement in this case. And some rythmic fun. This was rather the point this time :D.

All will come with more experience and confidence.

Thanks a lot for detailed listening! This is very helpful!
- Piotr

Edit:
Also: This IS Sibelius 6 .


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## JohnG (Jun 11, 2011)

Hi Piotr,

The live version is so much more interesting and musical that I don't think there's really any comparison. Yes, it would be great to hear more of the strings; I don't know whether you have any close mics and could lift them just a bit -- not too much because I don't really like the sound of close mics most of the time.

Alternatively, you could sneak just a little of the samples in.

But that said, I enjoy the live version so much more that I am loth to even offer these suggestions lest they somehow wreck the overall vibe.

Nice work and very enjoyable.


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## Ashermusic (Jun 11, 2011)

What gets lost in sample libraries is the issue of weight.

With the sample libraries it is easy to add it but with real instruments, it is frequently a matter of how many players there are. A Mike pointed out, the piece simply needs a bigger ensemble to be as powerful as it can be.


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## germancomponist (Jun 11, 2011)

Ha, It is a pleasure to listen to this comparisons, especially to the live version.

Very great, Pietro!

Thanks for sharing this!


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## Pietro (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks guys!

I did sneak some samples in a couple of bars, where, for example the strings were definitely too soft, but I didn't want to ruin the specific sound of the live thing. I could add more, but that would be samples layered with live recording, and I wanted to keep as much live intact as possible.

- Piotr


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## Rob (Jun 12, 2011)

nice job, Pietro (love the 0.57 bit), live version is superior in every aspect, that's no surprise... thanks for the score!


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## Mike Marino (Jun 12, 2011)

Thanks for the comparison! It's very interesting to hear the differences everyone is talking about. Nice job!

- The other Mike


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## Mike Marino (Jun 12, 2011)

Pietro:

Did you score this out in Finale first....then open the MIDI and record the expression? Or did you play it into your DAW first, then go back and write it out for live performance?

- Mike


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## Pietro (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks Mike,

I compose and arrange in Cubase. Mockup is my first stage. The mockup has some keyboard patches such as Hollywoodwinds, Symphobia so it needs cleaning.

Then I clean it up in a template for orchestration, divide into individual instruments, as in the score, still in Cubase. So I have flutes, piccolo, oboes, clarinets, two tracks for horns (2 horns each) etc. Just as it appears in the score.

Then I import it as midi in Sibelius and do the rest - reorchestrate slightly if necessary, add articulations, dynamics and so on.

Sounds complicated but it really isn't . The middle stage makes transition from midi to score very easy and then it's mostly work on notation. I would go crazy if I had to divide keyboard-spread parts, such as HWW in Sibelius.

- Piotr


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## Ashermusic (Jun 13, 2011)

Pietro @ Mon Jun 13 said:


> Thanks Mike,
> 
> I compose and arrange in Cubase. Mockup is my first stage. The mockup has some keyboard patches such as Hollywoodwinds, Symphobia so it needs cleaning.
> 
> ...



Actually, that is similar to how I work in Logic, except I do the score printout in Logic as well.

BTW, my next book will be on Logic's Score Editor.


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