# Orchestration - Brass advice needed



## Swordfish (Aug 27, 2010)

Hi there,

http://www.sendspace.com/file/jddms5

what do you think about the 3rd horn thing? I know the horn is able to produce such "low" notes, but isn't this kind of unusual? how about a trombone instead?

how do you find the orchestration job in general? also is the engraving allright? (I'm pretty unsure about dynamics and legato lines)

cheers!


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## Robin (Aug 28, 2010)

Hi Swordfish,

these horn chords would be way better fitted for trombones. It should work down there for the horns but they are neither much carrying nor very stable intonation wise. Also you should check your score layout. Trumpets need to go below horns in the score sheet or you'll drive your conductor crazy.
Apart from that pretty straight-forward orchestration, nothing much to comment on 

All the best
Robin


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## Roque Fort (Aug 28, 2010)

Hi Swordfish.

Let's see your six cool measures (bars)...your orchestral score reads: Concert/Non-transposed score.

Ok, there's a "3rd Horn" playing SOLO. And the lowest note I see is a G2 (MIDI note 43).

There's nothing unusual in reaching that G2 (MIDI note 43) for a Horn, your notes are in the middle of the low register (of the instrument). However, naming a part Horn 1, or Horn 3, etc implies that that you are calling for high hornists. So that passage is more appropiate for Horn 2, or Horn 4, etc (who are low hornists). Your score is asking a high hornist to play in the middle of the low range (of the Horn)...it is perfectly possible, and beautiful, but we usually prefer to leave most of the low register of the Horn for the low hornists.

>===> Then you say: "how about a trombone instead?"
>-----> Yes, you can use a tenor trombone instead, of course. But, in my opinion, a trombone wouldn't fit your passage...the horn blends well with your woodwinds and your strings. So I think you did that beautifully.

>===> You also ask: "how do you find the orchestration job in general?"
>-----> So far, fine! Woodwinds + Horns + Timpani + Strings. That's a typical way of doing things. Simple and effective.

>===> You ask: "also is the engraving allright?"
>-----> I'm no engraving expert. There is no standard engraving. In general, the important thing is readability. There are many common practices but, in order to be more sure, you need your scores to be proof-read by a professional proofreader. You cannot trust in your software (no matter how good or expensive), this has been clearly and strongly stated by many musicians and professionals.
******However, I notice that your score reads F Horn 1-2, F Horn 3-4, F Horn 4-5. This is a simple mistake, it should read F Horn 1-2, F Horn 3-4, F Horn 5-6 instead.
******And another thing: the Horn goes below the woodwinds, the tradition states that this is because the horns blend very well with the woodwinds...even film scores follow this tradition. So the Trumpets go below the Horns, normally. Yeah, I know...counter-intuitive.

>===> You say: "I'm pretty unsure about dynamics and legato lines".
>-----> Well, who isn't? There is no standard. People tend to have very different views on this. You need to be more specific here, I mean, what do you mean exactly? You can find decent information about dynamics in one of the free online books by Alan Belkin, I think that it was in one of the orchestration books...they are 4 or 5 books you'll find useful. And, as regards legato lines, the site Dolmetsh Online will also be useful. (I may give you the links if you don't want to get lost in searches).

By the way, I watched your "Universal" video in one of your posts, you did a nice job there too.

(Oh, and one thing more: you can do whatever you want with your score, nobody forces you to follow the tradition...you won't go to jail! There are many composers that use or have used non-standard notations, scoring, engraving, etc. If you feel a strong need to write something absloutely non-standard, then take some time to explain all your non-standard things in an introduction before your score. However, the risk is that musicians may loose too much time in rehearsals and little in playing your piece nicely).

(And I didn't like the behaviour of the download site, too unfriendly for my taste. I nearly stopped the download).


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## Stevie (Aug 29, 2010)

Maybe there should be a sticky in this section, that you will get likely more people to listen to tracks, if you upload it to soundcloud.


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## Swordfish (Aug 29, 2010)

Thanks for your help (special thanks to Roque Fort and robteehan for the detailed explanations! )



> ...but I wouldn't mark it "solo", but rather "1 only". It's not really a solo, it's the bass line, doubled by cello and bass.



How about "a1"?



> re: dynamics, what you should mark depends on context. But it's good advice to favour simply "forte" and "piano" over "mezzo" anything. What I see on the page does not give clear direction and is likely to result in a flat performance. You could try marking it "piano", and put some crescendi to the third measure, to "mf", and then diminuendo to your last chord, which you mark "piano", and that'll get you a nice expressive result. You could also mark the whole thing "forte", with a diminuendo on the last chord to piano, and you'll get a nice epic, "sweeping" sound. It really depends what you want.



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## Roque Fort (Aug 29, 2010)

Swordfish @ Sun Aug 29 said:


> As for the download thing, I know...it's a pain in the ass...will use some of the streaming sites next time.


 :lol:


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## robteehan (Aug 29, 2010)

Swordfish @ Sun Aug 29 said:


> Thanks for your help (special thanks to Roque Fort and robteehan for the detailed explanations! )
> 
> How about "a1"?



Never seen "a1" before, but "1." can mean "one player"; I think it's officially short for "primo" as in, first chair. You could put "4." to signify that it's the fourth player only on the 3rd and 4th horn staff, then "a2" when both are playing. 



> I just had to choose the mezzo dynamics...at least for the accampoinent thing because it's neither forte nor piano imo.
> But changing the flutes from mf to f may be a good idea, what do you think?



If you want the line to stick out, I would have all your high woodwinds at mezzo forte or forte, and everyone else at piano. As it stands it sounds nicely balanced.



> Also I was allready thinking about adding decr and dim because there's a dynamic change in the audio...but since it's pretty slightly wouldn't it be better if I leave that to the players?



How can you be sure they will all do the same thing? 
A natural decay will probably happen, sure, but if you want to make an effective musical gesture, you'll get better results by being extremely explicit with your notation. I've learned this from experience.




> thanks! I should note that it's not meaned to be actual music...as with the above stuff I just wanted to test something out.



That's important to know... a live concert orchestra vs. live recorded orchestra vs. sampled orchestra are all very different.


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