# Another fool trying to sync Logic and Pro Tools HD Native. This time with Rednet and VEP. Almost...



## leggylangdon (Jun 16, 2016)

Hi guys

Trying to get the ultimate sync set up with Logic X 10.2.3 and PT HD Native 12.5.1

Wondering if anyone can help me...

I figured out by using 4 separate IAC Bus's and using VEP in External midi mode, I am able to 'trigger' VEP from Logic via Logic external midi tracks, but host VEP inside of Pro Tools and thus all the VEP audio returns show up in PT. I have them routed to discreet audio tracks, where I can print when ready. I monitor everything discreetly from Logic through Pro Tools in input mode ....So far so good!

I also have 64 channels coming out of Logic via my Rednet PCIe Card. This in turn is patched via Dante to 2 x Rednet 5's getting me 64 channels into PT HD Native from Logic.

So with set up I basically have a template in Logic that is mirrored in Pro Tools and I now have around 100 discreet channels coming over from Logic to PT all on the same 2012 12 Core Mac Pro.

The system is rock solid, latency is great all is wonderful....

Except, when I go to print my Logic sequence into Pro Tools all the VEP audio is late. BTW I am syncing using the IAC Bus with MTC and PT is the master.

All my Rednet audio is bang on the money, but the VEP audio is all late by about 1800 samples. Delay Comp is On, there only 95 samples of delay in the session.

Looks like there's some kind of offset issue, but when I have all the channels in input and run the sequence everything plays back as normal. Its just once I have recorded everything and go to play it back I can see and hear that the audio is behind but just on the VEP tracks.

Any thoughts on how to get this audio back in line?

Many thanks!

Leggy


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## jamwerks (Jun 17, 2016)

That sounds like quite a setup! Just a shot in the dark here... VEP might be the "culprit". It's delay compensation might be getting thrown-off by being hosted in one daw, whilst being triggered from another. Would it be possible to host VEP in Logic, but still print into PT?


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## leggylangdon (Jun 17, 2016)

Yeah that's what I was thinking too about the delay comp...think VEP is confused...I could host in Logic but bacally this setup was a way for me to get more than 64 channels out of Logic into PT at once. My template is around 100 tracks and I wanted a way to have everything come through the pro tools mixer discreetly.

Maybe this way is just a little too far out there!

Only other way is to go HDX with 2 cards for 128 channels via Rednet!

I was thinking there could be a way of working out the offset but hey 64 channels is not too shabby...perfect for stems for a composer but I want all individual coming from Logic for further work in PT

Thanks!


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## IFM (Jun 17, 2016)

Dante should have a near zero latency so that shouldn't be the issue...as long as it isn't Dante Via. Sure sounds like VEP. Have you tried a ZERO buffer setting? I know this will launch the CPU into the sky but if just as a test you could do it and see if the audio is right on then.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 17, 2016)

IFM said:


> Dante should have a near zero latency so that shouldn't be the issue...as long as it isn't Dante Via. Sure sounds like VEP. Have you tried a ZERO buffer setting? I know this will launch the CPU into the sky but if just as a test you could do it and see if the audio is right on then.



Yeah all the Dante is perfect. Just tried VEP with no latency buffers on each instance and no change to the audio, still around 1800 samples late. Whats frustrating is when I am just monitoring everything through PT, playing back the sequence in Logic all sounds great and is in sync regardless of the VEP buffer setting...there's gotta be something im not doing or something to be done to realign this damn audio! 

FYI...I only need Pro Tools to print this pass once, im not looking to record audio in PT and run midi in Logic simultaneously. I basically want to start productions in Logic and then when 'im ready' I want to move it all over to PT in one pass and carry on working in PT. Thanks!


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## gsilbers (Jun 17, 2016)

I thought there was a way to do this without hardware. Is it possible to route LPX to PT native internally without dante? 
or a way to do it with dante but without the software?


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## leggylangdon (Jun 17, 2016)

The only way to do internally is if you dont use PT HD and then use something like Loopback/soundflower as the playback engine. But then Pro Tools limits the IO to 32 channels. Its basically Avid's way of fucking you 

My Rednet system with Rednet 5
s on the PTHD side is the way to go for me just if I want more than 64 channels it starts to get crazy expensive! 

This whole VEP things was my way of trying to get around it, and it almost works...


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## AlexRuger (Jun 17, 2016)

leggylangdon said:


> So with set up I basically have a template in Logic that is mirrored in Pro Tools and I now have around 100 discreet channels coming over from Logic to PT all on the same 2012 12 Core Mac Pro.



Back up. So all of this is happening on one machine? Is VEPro running on a slave or is it too running on the Mac Pro?


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## leggylangdon (Jun 17, 2016)

Yup one machine. VEP is local slave and the instances are living in Pro Tools. VEP is in external midi mode. Im then sending midi from Logic to VEP via the IAC bus (ive made a separate bus for each instance) And thus now audio from VEP is showing up in PT via discreet audio tracks in input mode but being sequenced in Logic. Basically using PT as a mixer and print machine is the idea. 

The problem is that when I go to print the channels in PT all the VEP channels are behind and out of sync.


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## AlexRuger (Jun 17, 2016)

Yup, understood. I'm impressed that you're running all that at the same time. 

What is your VEPro Server buffer rate? Does changing it affect the delay on the printed tracks? And is the delay _exactly _1800 samples or are your rounding/estimating?

Echoing what everyone else has said, the problem is definitely VEPro. It sounds like you're doing more in Logic than only sending MIDI to VEPro, and if all the non-VEPro stuff that's been stemmed out from Logic into Pro Tools is fine, it's not a Logic or Pro Tools issue...

Except...one idea: under Logic's Preferences>Audio>General, what is the Plug-in Latency Compensation set to? If it's on "Audio and Software Instrument Tracks," that_ could_ explain why what I assume are your only external MIDI tracks are behaving differently. Try setting it to "All" or "Off" and see what happens.

To further narrow this down, try controlling a hardware synth with MIDI and see if it behaves as it should or like VEPro.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 17, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Yup, understood. I'm impressed that you're running all that at the same time.
> 
> What is your VEPro Server buffer rate? Does changing it affect the delay on the printed tracks? And is the delay _exactly _1800 samples or are your rounding/estimating?
> 
> ...



Thanks for the idea there!...I was feeling like that could of helped things. But no go unfortunately. The delay stays the same regardless of VEP Buffer. I have switched off Logic latency comp and also still the same. Also I tried the hardware synth option. That is fine as the audio is coming directly into Pro Tools and is pretty bang on. 

All the audio that comes through on on Rednet is perfectly aligned. Only the synths/strings etc that I have set up in VEP are out.

On the last test the delay is 1691 samples. FYI I am hosting the VEP instances on Aux tracks. I am am then routing Outputs from 3/4 onward directly to audio tracks in Pro Tools which are in Input to monitor the sound. The wired thing is that its all in sync when I just play the simple midi sequence from logic. Its only when its recorded that it is played back late. Is there something perhaps I need to adjust in the delay comp for these tracks perhaps??

Ok now im really set on sorting this out ha!


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## samphony (Jun 17, 2016)

@leggylangdon 

Have you tried to make logic the MTC master and PT the layback device?


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## AlexRuger (Jun 18, 2016)

Try changing the VEPro buffer. Does the affect things?

Also, +1 on the MTC master/slave switch. Good idea.


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## IFM (Jun 18, 2016)

AlexRuger said:


> Try changing the VEPro buffer. Does the affect things?



I think your the 3rd person to suggest that. 

Leggy, if you are not taking advantage of Logic's dual buffer then you might as well not run VEP in server mode inside PT. Just run in standalone using the external MIDI (IAC) and route the audio back into PT over REDNET. That way it is basically acting as a sound module so what you hear is what you get whether composing or printing tracks.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

IFM said:


> I think your the 3rd person to suggest that.
> 
> Leggy, if you are not taking advantage of Logic's dual buffer then you might as well not run VEP in server mode inside PT. Just run in standalone using the external MIDI (IAC) and route the audio back into PT over REDNET. That way it is basically acting as a sound module so what you hear is what you get whether composing or printing tracks.



Thanks IFM! Yeah I had considered that option. But then I'm back to where I started in terms of IO...

This elaborate, long winded setup is an attempt to 'trick' pro tools into seeing more io than the maximum limitation of the HD Native card. The only way of getting more IO doing it with Rednet alone would be to get multiple HDX cards and also additional Rednet 5 units all in all a very expensive option 

I may just concede and limit myself to 64 channels and make a smaller template


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

Ok so I tried Logic being the master. Thanks for the suggestion....

That has helped the timing a little, still not perfect.

But here's my work around...

Basically made an edit group in Pro Tools for all my VEP tracks. Then I'm 'shift/tab to transient' at the bar point to the first hit of audio. Then whilst the selection is highlighted across all my VEP tracks I switch to Shuffle mode and delete the selection. Audio then moves back in time by the selection amount (in this case 1872 samples)

Crude I know, but as all my Perc/drums are coming in on my Rednet the only stuff I'm using through VEP is all pad/string stuff and preliminary test sound good. Though is definitely not perfect. 

I think just using one instance of VEP (instead of 4) may help clear discrepancies up. Making there be only one other place for audio to come in to Pro Tools other than the Rednet, and then set it to using maximum outputs I think 64 channels is the limit right? That would give me 128 channels of io...That might do it!

I will continue with my experiments...


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## Ashermusic (Jun 18, 2016)

Here is the problem as I see it and why I bailed years ago.

Once upon a time there was a company called Emagic, which developed a MIDI only app named Logic. There was also a a company called Digidesign, which developed a audio only app named Pro Tools.

They needed each other and were highly motivated to make their creations, hardware and software, work well together. The Logic added audio and was sold to Apple and Pro Tools added MIDI and was sold to Avid.

These companies have _zero_ motivation to make their creations, hardware and software, work well together. So even if you get it working perfectly now, sooner or later it is likely to be broken.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Here is the problem as I see it and why I bailed years ago.
> 
> Once upon a time there was a company called Emagic, which developed a MIDI only app named Logic. There was also a a company called Digidesign, which developed a audio only app named Pro Tools.
> 
> ...




Yeah I hear you Jay! Was just having this convo with another producer friend last night. Seems to me that if Avid/Apply/Stenberg/etc realized that if they worked together and made a modern universal sync system (ala Rewire for grown ups) making it simple to link any DAW to any DAW with full functionality...we as music creators would end up embracing a multi DAW set up and get the best of all worlds. Thus spend more money across the board...And in fact create the opposite effect than what the companies fear...competition for market share. Everyone's a winner baby ha!....I am realist though..not going to happen in our greed/fear driven society...uh oh..I just got political...ok good bye.

Thank you all so much for your help and suggestions! This was my first 'query' post as I am relatively new to this forum. I must say the caliber of knowledge here is very high and the vibe is super respectful with no condescending answers etc which you find on some forums...Very cool! I will try to contribute as much as I can to help others fight the good fight DAW! 

Leggy


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## Ashermusic (Jun 18, 2016)

Leggy, keep one thing in mind: the sale of all the Apple pro apps for a year in total represents a very bad day for sales of the iPhone.

Deep Throat in All The President's Men: "Follow the money."


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Leggy, keep one thing in mind: the sale of all the Apple pro apps for a year in total represents a very bad day for sales of the iPhone.
> 
> Deep Throat in All The President's Men: "Follow the money."



Haha!! Amen to that Jay


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## kurtvanzo (Jun 18, 2016)

I agree that larger companies are always concerned with the big bucks, and therefore care less about the pro market or worse the "I want to do in my personal studio what use to take a large dubbing stage to do, but on a large scale and all in one pass" which, let's face it, is you, me and maybe a few dozen other people. 

As far as your issue I have found times where running it from the sequencer works better, let us know if that works better. If not my suggestion is to contact VSL. There is a posting on their forum with a similar issue:
https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t37813-VE-Pro-5-Latency-Meter-Reads-0#post230177

They are pretty good about responding to support emails. I'm glad you have a workaround for the moment (moving back audio), but there should be a way to make this happen.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> I agree that larger companies are always concerned with the big bucks, and therefore care less about the pro market or worse the "I want to do in my personal studio what use to take a large dubbing stage to do, but on a large scale and all in one pass" which, let's face it, is you, me and maybe a few dozen other people.
> 
> As far as your issue I have found times where running it from the sequencer works better, let us know if that works better. If not my suggestion is to contact VSL. There is a posting on their forum with a similar issue:
> https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t37813-VE-Pro-5-Latency-Meter-Reads-0#post230177
> ...



Thanks Kurtvanzo! 

Yeah totally agree with you...and yeah they dont care about a very small area of their market (pro market)

Unfortunately using VEP inside the sequencer (logic) doesn't help me in my quest because then I have to get the audio over to Pro Tools via my Rednet thus using up my io faster. For this to all work I need the VEP instances in Pro Tools but the midi inside Logic and then just to figure out the timing discrepancies. 

I am going a little 'off the grid' so to speak with how I am trying to use VEP and im sure the folks over there would not recommend it...but hey...its fun pushing the boundaries of the technology we have available to us...that is essentially what we have always done in the past right!?...like when they ran out of tracks back in the 8 track days...they just bounced and voila more tracks! 

I will def reach out to VSL peeps and see what they say!

Cheers


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## kurtvanzo (Jun 18, 2016)

leggylangdon said:


> Thanks Kurtvanzo!
> 
> Yeah totally agree with you...and yeah they dont care about a very small area of their market (pro market)
> 
> ...



See what they say. I think you can still use VE Pro in Protools without a problem, as long as the midi is getting from Logic to VE Pro ok. I was just suggesting using Logic as a Master. Which means putting Pro Tools in "Online" mode (command J) and sending it Midi timecode or other type of sync. Then use the transport in Logic and Protools will follow. In fact you can set Protools up to record as soon as it locks or at specified in/out points (probably a better idea). It can usually lock very quickly and as you say, once it's laid off correctly you can go back to Pro tools.

When I've talked to VSL they seemed fine with pushing the limits (which is usually why I am contacting them )


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> See what they say. I think you can still use VE Pro in Protools without a problem, as long as the midi is getting from Logic to VE Pro ok. I was just suggesting using Logic as a Master. Which means putting Pro Tools in "Online" mode (command J) and sending it Midi timecode or other type of sync. Then use the transport in Logic and Protools will follow. In fact you can set Protools up to record as soon as it locks or at specified in/out points (probably a better idea). It can usually lock very quickly and as you say, once it's laid off correctly you can go back to Pro tools.
> 
> When I've talked to VSL they seemed fine with pushing the limits (which is usually why I am contacting them )



Sweet! Yeah I have Logic as the master now and its better for sure. Do you know how you set PT up to record when it sees MTC? Is that a pref?


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## studioj (Jun 18, 2016)

While these sorts of setups can be fun to work out and offer some flexibility, in the end the complexity of them becomes a major hardship in my experience. Recalling old sessions down the road and time spent trouble shooting are very real obstacles to efficiency. My recommendation, if you are looking for a suitable workflow, would be either to remain in one application for everything (Logic or PT, in addition to VEP) or simply use PT as a stem print machine but do not host VI plugins in it. Run multiple rednet outputs from Logic into PT for printing. Certainly running Logic as a MIDI only app has its benefits in terms of speed but in the long run this has always failed for me, between delay comp issues and backward/ forward compatibility problems.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

studioj said:


> While these sorts of setups can be fun to work out and offer some flexibility, in the end the complexity of them becomes a major hardship in my experience. Recalling old sessions down the road and time spent trouble shooting are very real obstacles to efficiency. My recommendation, if you are looking for a suitable workflow, would be either to remain in one application for everything (Logic or PT, in addition to VEP) or simply use PT as a stem print machine but do not host VI plugins in it. Run multiple rednet outputs from Logic into PT for printing. Certainly running Logic as a MIDI only app has its benefits in terms of speed but in the long run this has always failed for me, between delay comp issues and backward/ forward compatibility problems.



I think you are right. Ive already spent so much time trying to resolve this issue. Ultimately I just want to be able to create in Logic then mix in Pro Tools as I always have done. The Rednet system was a solution to making the transition from Logic to Pro Tools with 64 channels and now I ve gotten greedy ha! I think a simpler set up with just my Rednet and a streamlined template will do the trick...I may not even use VEP...crazy, I know!  

Cheers!


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## kurtvanzo (Jun 18, 2016)

leggylangdon said:


> Sweet! Yeah I have Logic as the master now and its better for sure. Do you know how you set PT up to record when it sees MTC? Is that a pref?



Yes, Under Protools Preferences / Operation / Select "Record Online at Timecode Lock" . And as soon as PT is synced, it will punch into any record enabled tracks.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

kurtvanzo said:


> Yes, Under Protools Preferences / Operation / Select "Record Online at Timecode Lock" . And as soon as PT is synced, it will punch into any record enabled tracks.



Awesome thank you!


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## kurtvanzo (Jun 18, 2016)

leggylangdon said:


> Awesome thank you!



Don't forget to turn the record enables off (option click one to turn them all off at once) as soon as your done recording otherwise Protools will continue to punch in and out until they are turned off or the preference is unchecked. Cheers.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 18, 2016)

Right!


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## AlexRuger (Jun 19, 2016)

I have to agree that the complexity can cause more issues than it solves. I've worked on a lot of composers' rigs that use Pro Tools as a stem print and either Logic or Cubase as the sequencer, and though it should absolutely work perfectly _in theory, _it always ends up being a compromise. Timecode offsets, more I/O hardware than you'd ever want to buy, keeping up with the Avid subscription model, etc etc etc...Plus there's the age-old issue of how best to isolate and print your reverbs without running ~a million instances of Altiverb.

One big headache that often ends up eating more time than saving it.

What I've done is just set up a bunch of input-monitored audio tracks for stems. Simple enough, works well enough. If I want to mix in Pro Tools (which I'm doing less and less of these days), Cmd-Shift-I, spot to timecode, voila. Easy enough. If I'm feeling real saucy, maybe I'll export a MIDI map with the stems.

If I were delivering a session per week on a TV show or something, I might consider Pro Tools, but even then, all the dub stage is going to do is import your audio from the Pro Tools session...it isn't any different for them if it comes "wrapped" in a Pro Tools gift bag or not.

I guess the only truly tangible benefit I see is that the movie is hosted in Pro Tools. But in your case, I'd imagine running VEPro (and Pro Tools!) locally will cancel out any of those benefits.


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## OLB (Jun 23, 2016)

Very nice to read your experiences Leggy. I've been working on a similar setup (not Rednet) but more like a stem/fx setup. Results are great, latency is great as well. 

I've been doing a setup like Trevor as he explains here.

The thing I ran into with hosting VEP in Protools was that I lost the ability to have f.e. Kontakt follow the host tempo. Have you found a solution to that?


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## leggylangdon (Jun 23, 2016)

OLB said:


> Very nice to read your experiences Leggy. I've been working on a similar setup (not Rednet) but more like a stem/fx setup. Results are great, latency is great as well.
> 
> I've been doing a setup like Trevor as he explains here.
> 
> The thing I ran into with hosting VEP in Protools was that I lost the ability to have f.e. Kontakt follow the host tempo. Have you found a solution to that?



Hey OLB!

Glad to hear you are having some success with your set up...

Yeah man, that's a tricky one...If you are sequencing in Logic/Cubase but hosting VEP in Pro Tools, unless you are constantly running the 2 DAW's timelines in sync via midi timecode and also have a imported midi tempo map from your sequencer then you wont be able have VEP follow tempo. So its possible but to me it might be more hassle than its worth. This setup is just not the way VEP had in mind when designing it 

I have really come to the conclusion that using only my Rednet system to get 64 channels of audio to Pro Tools is the best way. This extended set up of having VEP run inside Pro Tools to get more IO 'almost' works but there's just too many negative factors to make the positive factors worth while. The main factor in all this is sync and we all know how important that is!

If you come across another method id love to hear about it! 

Cheers!


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## Mishabou (Jun 23, 2016)

I'm about to get a Rednet system and was wondering if you're using the Avid IO or Rednet for AD/DA ? If it's the latter, how do you find the sound quality compare to the Avid IO ? Thx


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## leggylangdon (Jun 23, 2016)

Anhtu said:


> I'm about to get a Rednet system and was wondering if you're using the Avid IO or Rednet for AD/DA ? If it's the latter, how do you find the sound quality compare to the Avid IO ? Thx



I am currently using my Avid HD IO for AD/DA...just got another Rednet 5 and a Rednet 2 to replace the Avid so I can have 64 channels of Rednet into PT. Will be setting up this weekend....I will let you know how I get on! I have only hear great things about the Rednet 2's conversion


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## dtonthept (Jun 25, 2016)

I've got both Rednet and Avid I/O. I do prefer the Rednets, they feel fractionally better than the Avids, but not by so long a margin that I ever hesitate to use the Avids. I switched my monitoring to come from the Rednets, until a later added a Grace M905 which has built in DA. 

Really love Rednet as a whole platform, the fact each box contains twice as many IO as my Avids, and they are also quieter, is a big plus too. I run them with the fans disabled.


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## leggylangdon (Jun 25, 2016)

dtonthept said:


> I've got both Rednet and Avid I/O. I do prefer the Rednets, they feel fractionally better than the Avids, but not by so long a margin that I ever hesitate to use the Avids. I switched my monitoring to come from the Rednets, until a later added a Grace M905 which has built in DA.
> 
> Really love Rednet as a whole platform, the fact each box contains twice as many IO as my Avids, and they are also quieter, is a big plus too. I run them with the fans disabled.



Thats great to hear!

Just testing today and wow!! Im very impressed with the sound of the Rednet 2...and the ability to have all my analogue ins show up in Logic and PT is so good. This system is very powerful and rock solid!! Good by AVID HDIO!!


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## leggylangdon (Jun 27, 2016)

As an update to this set up...

I have been in touch with Paul at VEP and he has suggested to import any midi tracks that are triggering VEP from Logic into PT when it's time to print. If you set up your PT template with an Instrument track for each sound source from VEP once the midi is brough in on the relevant instrument track all you do is then route VEP to internal midi to trigger the slave and then 'commit offline' all the tracks at once and boom all audio is sample accurate. Because monitoring live through pro tools works fine you are able to work as normal sequencing in Logic.

If your Logic and PT templates are set up in such a way that exporting he midi from logic and importing into pro tools is as simple as possible (labeling, numbering tracks so they import in a specific order!

So, the plot thickens. this is for sure a work around but I will explore it to see how it works!

Cheers!


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## dtonthept (Jun 27, 2016)

Innnnnnnnnnteresssssstingggggggg... 
Let us know how you get on!


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## Mishabou (Jun 27, 2016)

leggylangdon said:


> Thats great to hear!
> 
> Just testing today and wow!! Im very impressed with the sound of the Rednet 2...and the ability to have all my analogue ins show up in Logic and PT is so good. This system is very powerful and rock solid!! Good by AVID HDIO!!



If i understand correctly, the 16 Rednet IO shows up in your PT and Logic, i assume both apps are on the same computer ? How does one app knows which physical inputs on the Rednet 2 the other app is using ?


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## leggylangdon (Jun 27, 2016)

Anhtu said:


> If i understand correctly, the 16 Rednet IO shows up in your PT and Logic, i assume both apps are on the same computer ? How does one app knows which physical inputs on the Rednet 2 the other app is using ?



With Rednet you're able to route any audio signal to anywhere on the Rednet network. You are also able to send signals to multiple 'receivers' ont he network. So you basically patch the Rednet 2 (AD/DA) into both the Rednet 5 (Which is the Pro Tools HD bridge) and then also to the Rednet PCie card which is where core audio shows up in this case Logic. Its very powerful and rock solid and the Rednet 2 (ad/da) is amazing!


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## Mishabou (Jun 28, 2016)

Thx for the info, will be getting my Rednet this wk


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## dtonthept (Jun 28, 2016)

Hang on Leggy so you're running a Pt native and Rednet pcie card at the same time? Very interesting if so....


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## leggylangdon (Jun 28, 2016)

dtonthept said:


> Hang on Leggy so you're running a Pt native and Rednet pcie card at the same time? Very interesting if so....



Yes I'm running the HD Native Card and the Rednet PCie from the same Mac Pro 5.1 12 Core 3.46 I also have an Octo UAD Card in there  ...I have both PT and Logic at a 128 buffer and all is well! That being said my template is much smaller than most of you guys on here at around 150 tracks...but it runs great for what I do which is mostly pop production/writing/mixing. I am looking at getting another tower on ebay as the 12 core is not that much anymore!


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