# What should come first when composing?



## Ray (Nov 14, 2021)

Melodic line & piano / guitar / comping instrument of choice? Bass and drums?
Is there a rule to this that I should follow?

*Sometimes the basslines and the drum arrangements I listen to are so strong and provide so much support to the song that I'd think they came up with those first (but I highly doubt it).

What about you, what do you start with first?


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## KEM (Nov 14, 2021)

I wish there was a concrete answer to this but sadly there just isn’t, there’s no one size fits all approach and it’s really just whatever works for the piece and what inspires you first. I’ll say that I’ve personally never been one to write piano sketches and then orchestrate them, that is incredibly boring to me and I lose interest almost immediately if I try that approach, I’m usually inspired by crazy synth sounds, guitars, and other untraditional instruments, or I’ll have a general concept of a scene in my head or a certain emotion I want to portray and then it’s all about finding the first element that feels like it’s putting me in the right ballpark and from there it’s anyones guess as to what I’ll end up doing for the rest of it


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## Jeremy Gillam (Nov 14, 2021)

Melody


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## Dave Connor (Nov 14, 2021)

_Write what you know. _LA composition teacher, legend - Hal Johnson.

If you hear a specific rhythm part - write or put it in.

Same with a flute melody, or string rhythm, or brass statement etc.

Whatever it is you’re sure is an essential ingredient to what you want to say musically, should go in unadulterated.

Even if it pauses and starts again - leave those blank areas and keep writing that same part for as long as you hear it.

Hal pointed out that Mozart wrote that way: would completely finish out a part until it completed the thought or section. Could be a bassoon part - could be anything.


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## Arbee (Nov 14, 2021)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> Melody


I would agree with you except along comes this exquisite classic that is "simply" a beautiful arpeggiated chord sequence. Did he just start with the first chord and "get in the zone" with it as it unfolded before him?


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## Arbee (Nov 14, 2021)

In general I would suggest compositions that start with a motif/melody/riff seed are more likely to be "sticky", compared with those that start with a bass/drums/synth patch seed. But, as above, there are always exceptions, don't you just love music


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## morganwable (Nov 14, 2021)

The thing that comes first when composing is:
Whatever comes first to YOU.

Though to be fair, I usually start with a melody, and as a result (due to my own flimsy foundation in music theory) a lot of my compositions end up being harmonically flat. I also can't seem to escape 4/4.

So maybe I should start with chords more often?


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## KEM (Nov 14, 2021)

A little jealous that so many of you start with melodies, I wish I could do that but I SUCK at harmonizing, that’s seriously my weakest skill, if I write a melody first I just put a bass drone under it cause I can’t write harmonies under a melody to save my life, I think it’s the hardest thing ever. I have to write the chords first or else I’m screwed, but I guess that’s what I get coming from the metal world where there’s basically no such thing as melody/harmony together (and basically no harmony at all if we’re gonna be totally honest)


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## morganwable (Nov 14, 2021)

KEM said:


> coming from the metal world where there’s basically [...] no harmony at all


Tell that to Ghost.
Or anybody in prog metal.

Either way, I think the reason I start with melody is because I usually get my music ideas spontaneously and they form in my head through the process of literally, physically humming them. While I am (tenuously and only in a very small range) capable of humming and whistling two different notes at once... this means that my process usually begins with harmony only faintly imagined, but a melody clearly present.

Here's something that might help: skip the bass drone pedal note next time and write a counter melody as your step 2. Play it by ear and pick notes that sound not just good, but interesting as accompaniment. Don't be afraid to suspend notes in the scale, try out weird harmonic resolutions, etc. 

Disclaimer: I don't know how to actually, properly do that. I barely know what those words mean.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 14, 2021)

KEM said:


> I guess that’s what I get coming from the metal world where there’s basically no such thing as melody/harmony together (and basically no harmony at all if we’re gonna be totally honest)


Wat?


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## Robin Thompson (Nov 14, 2021)

KEM said:


> A little jealous that so many of you start with melodies, I wish I could do that but I SUCK at harmonizing, that’s seriously my weakest skill, if I write a melody first I just put a bass drone under it cause I can’t write harmonies under a melody to save my life, I think it’s the hardest thing ever. I have to write the chords first or else I’m screwed, but I guess that’s what I get coming from the metal world where there’s basically no such thing as melody/harmony together (and basically no harmony at all if we’re gonna be totally honest)


I tend to hear melodies first, but I generally _don't_ then try to harmonize that. Instead, the next step after finding the seed of melody is finding the rhythm driving that melody. Once I understand how the piece wants to propel itself, that will inform A.) further development of the melody, and B.) what I need the chord progressions to accomplish, which narrows down the infinite possibilities into something more manageable.


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## KEM (Nov 14, 2021)

morganwable said:


> Tell that to Ghost.
> Or anybody in prog metal.
> 
> Either way, I think the reason I start with melody is because I usually get my music ideas spontaneously and they form in my head through the process of literally, physically humming them. While I am (tenuously and only in a very small range) capable of humming and whistling two different notes at once... this means that my process usually begins with harmony only faintly imagined, but a melody clearly present.
> ...





Trash Panda said:


> Wat?



This is the metal I grew up listening to, not a single melody or harmony at all, it’s just riffs, that’s why I have such a hard time with it, I grew up only listening to chugging on an open string


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## RonOrchComp (Nov 14, 2021)

KEM said:


> coming from the metal world where there’s basically no such thing as melody/harmony together (and basically no harmony at all if we’re gonna be totally honest)



completely incorrect


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## KEM (Nov 14, 2021)

RonOrchComp said:


> completely incorrect



I just posted an example right above your reply


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 14, 2021)

I used to write a chord progression first, but since I started writing melody first, my music is MUCH better.


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## Hywel (Nov 15, 2021)

I'm surprised that I'm post number 18 and nobody has mentioned that coffee comes first... .
Seriously though, I have been an amateur composer of songs and instrumentals for most of my life and I've started with all manner of things, so in no particular order, just brainstorming...

reading some lyrics can spark a phrase or melody or mood
a cool sounding chord or just a cool chord change from one to another
a rhythm, pulse, arp or drum beat
waking up with an ear worm - I must confess this has only happened once or twice to me
finding a cool sound/patch on an instrument and noodling
using software tools eg Scaler to suggest a chord sequence and writing on top - I use this method less now than I used to
I don't think I've ever used any random method eg note generator or used a mouse to draw notes in a MIDI editor.

So, in other words, start with whatever you've got - melody, rhythm, harmony or texture and work with it.

Remember, whatever the starting point is, your next step is always to try to work on the original idea and make it grow and develop - I think this is probably the most important thing of all. I suspect that so many of us have great ideas that are probably left as just that - "a great idea" and not progressed any further.

My DAW sessions can be loosely categorised into
1. using the above means to come up with an idea - I really love these sessions.
2. developing an idea that I think is worthwhile - this is probably the hardest and longest type of session but ultimately can be the most rewarding sometimes.
3. mixing a "finished" project - personally my least favourite type of session using a DAW.

Phew... time for coffee.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> This is the metal I grew up listening to, not a single melody or harmony at all, it’s just riffs, that’s why I have such a hard time with it, I grew up only listening to chugging on an open string



That's not metal. 

Regarding the topic - it doesn't matter which comes first, and it doesn't have to be the same process every time either. I would _hope _it's not the same process every time! The original inspiration for a good piece can come from a cool rhythmic idea, a great bass line, a riff, a certain instrumentation, a simple melody, whatever. All starting points are valid, there are many ways to Rome.

Also, if certain things sound fleshed out better than others, or are obviously the thing that the rest was created around, IMO that's bad writing/arranging.

To me personally it's odd that many people would say that the melody comes first, since a melody is meaningless without harmony. A melody by itself is just a bunch of intervals. So either I have a melody and already hear the harmonic foundation for it in my head already, or I'm more likely to come up with a better melody if I establish first where it resides in. But that's the way I hear things.


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## KEM (Nov 15, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's not metal.



That’s what us kids call “metalcore”


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 15, 2021)

If you're familiar with what some visual artists call a thumbnail/concept - I basically do that with music. As for the specific technique - I made a rule that there are no rules or guides to get me there. Getting the concept down is the hardest part of composing (for me) - once you have a plan/concept/thumbnail (and have a firm understanding of music) all you need to do is find the notes!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 15, 2021)

KEM said:


> That’s what us kids call “metalcore”


Yeah Metalcore I guess. There's a reason why there's a distinction.  It really narrows down the scope to chaos and brutality alone. And screaming.


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## GtrString (Nov 15, 2021)

An idea


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## ed buller (Nov 15, 2021)

I really like Ryan, his lessons are very straightforward and direct. He teaches some very important concepts . This is a good one as it deals with how powerful a simple idea can be .



best

ed


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 15, 2021)

ed buller said:


> I really like Ryan, his lessons are very straightforward and direct. He teaches some very important concepts . This is a good one as it deals with how powerful a simple idea can be .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is fantastic and part of the reason I don't stress to much about the specifics at the start.

Often ill play a motif from a song I adore and will ask myself - "if I came up with this motif at the piano, would I have thought could be turned into something amazing?". Usually the answer is no, I wouldn't have thought much of it. Crazy to think.


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## ed buller (Nov 15, 2021)

far too simple and trite to turn into a piece !







best

ed


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## eNGee (Nov 15, 2021)

GtrString said:


> An idea


Exactly! It is the idea which will mostly translated to the title of the song/piece. The idea also connect all parts because the writer is concentrating on the idea and make it the the main theme. It doesn't matter what kind of music or how simple or complex it is.


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## Crowe (Nov 15, 2021)

> What should come first when composing?​


The answer is 'booze'.


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## Anthony (Nov 15, 2021)

morganwable said:


> Here's something that might help: skip the bass drone pedal note next time and *write a counter melody as your step 2*. ...


To pick-up on this idea, after writing a counter-melody I look at the two notes at every musically meaningful slice of time (typically each bar) and see what chords could be derived from these two notes. Even with just two notes you're already two-thirds of the way to a (3-note) chord. I typically don't do this in isolation but rather also impose some constrains such as 1) alternate between tension and release chords on shorter timescales (i.e. _within_ a phrase), and 2) use functional harmony to create chord movement across longer timescales (i.e. across the _entire_ phrase). I'm not rigid about the application of these constraints; I want to keep the music interesting and not seem formulaic.

After doing what I've described above, I go through what I have and add a bassline and 'color' notes to the chords (although this usually happens earlier in the process). 

Cheers...


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## morganwable (Nov 15, 2021)

ed buller said:


> far too simple and trite to turn into a piece !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been drunk on piano rolls for over a decade and have effectively forgotten how to read sheet music.
But... is this Beethoven's fifth? lmao


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## ed buller (Nov 15, 2021)

morganwable said:


> I've been drunk on piano rolls for over a decade and have effectively forgotten how to read sheet music.
> But... is this Beethoven's fifth? lmao


Yup…


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## SupremeFist (Nov 15, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> To me personally it's odd that many people would say that the melody comes first, since a melody is meaningless without harmony. A melody by itself is just a bunch of intervals. So either I have a melody and already hear the harmonic foundation for it in my head already, or I'm more likely to come up with a better melody if I establish first where it resides in. But that's the way I hear things.


Same here!


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## handz (Nov 15, 2021)

In ideal world - Melody, then harmony.


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## mybadmemory (Nov 15, 2021)

I don’t believe there’s a right way to start from. Whatever comes to you first is a place as good as any. However after that I think there is, as with any creative endeavor, most probably merit in sketching the entirety before moving into details.


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## RogiervG (Nov 15, 2021)

emotions..
without them there is no musical journey to make...


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## b_elliott (Nov 15, 2021)

My 2 cents as a hobbyist: More often than not, once I have my tracks input in what I think is my song, I listen through it, then realize the outro is actually the intro, some bit in the chorus makes a better verse... and so on. Happens a lot.

Thus, I never sweat over what comes first. 

Throw things down on a track then listen back -- your sense of what works vs what doesn't will let you adjust to your satisfaction. 

Sometimes, even a wrong time selection (midway thru a bar/phrase) reveals some magic to me.

If I was smart, I would write the whole song in the piano-sketch phase; but, most of the time I just roll with throwing ideas down I want to hear my synth play. 

The majority of what I consider "music magic" are the surprises (things I would never think of) which appear out of the blue. I notice those 'surprises' during playback and go from there. 

Likely this is upsetting to anyone trained, but I don't let that stop me.


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## ed buller (Nov 15, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> emotions..
> without them there is not musical journey to make...


can't fault this statement !

best

ed


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## Hywel (Nov 16, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> ...as with any creative endeavor, most probably merit in sketching the entirety before moving into details.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Whatever the inspiration for the kernel idea of a piece, I think there is great value in working it through from start to finish in whatever instrument you are most comfortable in using - piano in my case.
Only after doing this do I reach for my arranger/orchestration hat, although I may have a few broad strokes outlined in my mind during the writing stage.


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## zoixx (Nov 16, 2021)

Thanks for the useful thread. 

It varies between either the melody first or the supporting foundation first. I.e. a nice drone atmospheric, a beat, or a chord sequence. Over that I improvise melodies. Pick out the best parts. Repeat the created section several times in the middle - not beginning - of the DAW and start making variations of the melody and supporting arrangement. Adding/removing elements etc.


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## Jerry Growl (Nov 16, 2021)

If the idea or the emotion, melody or rhythm doesn't pop in from the start, do what everyone does at the start of a blank sheet: Goof around! 

See what you 've got. Stumble upon libraries you'd forgotten about. Start something completely different than what you have in mind, combine things and then eraze everything you've gotten sofar again, just to start it right off as it should be.


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## LudovicVDP (Nov 16, 2021)

For me, most of the time, composing starts by closing Youtube and VI-Control... 
Not that easy... 


On a more serious note (the above is actually very serious though...) I mostly start with a melody I whistle on my phone. Then I'm trying to work it on the piano, finding the chords. Then orchestrate.

Depends of course of the type of music. More synth based stuff often starts with happy accidents.


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## TomislavEP (Nov 16, 2021)

For me, when I have a simple and singable melody, everything else seems to flow naturally. Also, as the piano is my main instrument, I usually up with a complete solo piano piece that already incorporates harmony, rhythm, structure, and mood to some degree. So everything else is mostly about arranging, production, orchestration where needed, etc.

However, there are no fixed rules here. It is possible to start with rhythm, ostinato, short melodic motif, sound design element, etc.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Nov 16, 2021)

Arbee said:


> I would agree with you except along comes this exquisite classic that is "simply" a beautiful arpeggiated chord sequence. Did he just start with the first chord and "get in the zone" with it as it unfolded before him?



I was being a little snarky with my terse answer...because of course there is no real answer to _should. _

Another way I think about it is in terms of hooks. Maybe it's not a melody, but it's the part that makes it memorable. Could be a percussion pattern, a chord progression, an arpeggio, a sound. But when I start by trying to create the memorable part then build around it, I'm usually happier with the results than when I throw down a 4-bar loop and try to make something on top of that (which I do too).


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## Arbee (Nov 16, 2021)

Jeremy Gillam said:


> I was being a little snarky with my terse answer...because of course there is no real answer to _should. _
> 
> Another way I think about it is in terms of hooks. Maybe it's not a melody, but it's the part that makes it memorable. Could be a percussion pattern, a chord progression, and arpeggio, a sound. But when I start by trying to create the memorable part then build around it, I'm usually happier with the results than when I throw down a 4-bar loop and try to make something on top of that (which I do too).


Agree. The hook perhaps of that Bach piece is the constant arpeggiated shape that drills into you while he takes you on the harmonic journey.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Nov 16, 2021)

Arbee said:


> Agree. The hook perhaps of that Bach piece is the constant arpeggiated shape that drills into you while he takes you on the harmonic journey.


Bach always takes you on a journey, and perhaps therein lies the answer.


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## Baronvonheadless (Nov 16, 2021)

A strong, damn fine cup of coffee. A slice of cherry pie. And a suite with a nice view of some old Douglas firs. 

Then, whatever the hell the video invokes in you. There are no rules. Different each and every time. To do anything else, would be to not interpret the piece but instead force your will upon it, imo.


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## Kent (Nov 16, 2021)

Ray said:


> Melodic line & piano / guitar / comping instrument of choice? Bass and drums?
> Is there a rule to this that I should follow?
> 
> *Sometimes the basslines and the drum arrangements I listen to are so strong and provide so much support to the song that I'd think they came up with those first (but I highly doubt it).
> ...


The signed contract, hopefully


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## Vik (Nov 21, 2021)

> What should come first when composing?​



I'm generally not a big fan of 'shoulds', but check out the first 5-10 minutes of Rick Beatos Sting interview:


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## Gerbil (Nov 21, 2021)

Baronvonheadless said:


> A strong, damn fine cup of coffee. A slice of cherry pie. And a suite with a nice view of some old Douglas firs.
> 
> Then, whatever the hell the video invokes in you. There are no rules. Different each and every time. To do anything else, would be to not interpret the piece but instead force your will upon it, imo.


Definitely coffee


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## WaltM (Nov 21, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> For me, most of the time, composing starts by closing Youtube and VI-Control...
> Not that easy...


I resemble that remark!
(Thanks for the reminder  )


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## waveheavy (Nov 22, 2021)

Definitely depends on what style one is writing for. 
If you want a song with a heavy bass and drum line, best to start with that.
If you want to write an acoustic love song, best to start with simple chords on a guitar or piano.
If you want to write a soundtrack for orchestra, best to start with a simple sketch and develop it.


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## Farkle (Nov 22, 2021)

A deadline.


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## Springday (Nov 22, 2021)

morganwable said:


> The thing that comes first when composing is:
> Whatever comes first to YOU.
> 
> Though to be fair, I usually start with a melody, and as a result (due to my own flimsy foundation in music theory) a lot of my compositions end up being harmonically flat. I also can't seem to escape 4/4.
> ...


Music is all about rhythms and repetitions and variations, so you need to feel your rhythm in your melody. And practice different rhythms like hitting drums in other time signatures and later come up with pitch. then all together. I learned it few hours ago.


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## Tralen (Nov 22, 2021)

ed buller said:


> far too simple and trite to turn into a piece !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That rest was probably what took the longest to decide.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 22, 2021)

liquidlino said:


> Any thoughts on why that is? And how do you go about harmonizing the melody?


When I come up with chords first, my melodies sound forced. Much easier for me to write the melody first and then the arrangement. Truth is, I don't usually think in terms of chords. I rely a little bit on theory, but mostly I'll decide what instrument I want and play around with harmonies until I stumble upon one that complements the melody.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 22, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> To me personally it's odd that many people would say that the melody comes first, since a melody is meaningless without harmony. A melody by itself is just a bunch of intervals. So either I have a melody and already hear the harmonic foundation for it in my head already, or I'm more likely to come up with a better melody if I establish first where it resides in. But that's the way I hear things.


I don't think a melody is meaningless without harmony at all. I can enjoy someone singing or even humming an unaccompanied melody. But I realize we're all different.


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## Michael K. Bain (Nov 22, 2021)

Arbee said:


> In general I would suggest compositions that start with a motif/melody/riff seed are more likely to be "sticky", compared with those that start with a bass/drums/synth patch seed. But, as above, there are always exceptions, don't you just love music


I don't understand what you mean by "sticky" here.


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## Jotto (Nov 22, 2021)

Money


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## Arbee (Nov 23, 2021)

Arbee said:


> In general I would suggest compositions that start with a motif/melody/riff seed are more likely to be "sticky", compared with those that start with a bass/drums/synth patch seed. But, as above, there are always exceptions, don't you just love music


I don't understand what you mean by "sticky" here.



Michael K. Bain said:


> I don't understand what you mean by "sticky" here.


By "sticky" I mean memorable, sticks in your brain, earworm etc


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## waveheavy (Nov 23, 2021)

When I first tried to write for orchestra, I would create the harmony, melody, and accompaniment all at the same time, one section at a time, while sorting out what instruments to assign to each part, and try to make it sound good as I went. This is NOT the way to do it. It almost always leads to confusion eventually in the piece.

It's better to start with a simple sketch. A melody line, simple parts, which fit the direction for the mood of the piece. The idea is to keep it simple at first, and develop it later. A simple melody line and then figure simple harmony to go with it, or create the harmony and bass line and then a melody, or create the bass line and then the rest, just however you want to work. But keep it simple. I recommend an AABA song format as a basis, not a concrete requirement, but as sort of a guideline. And you don't have to stick to 4 or 8 bar sections like popular music does. Odd number of bar sections is OK.

If your familiar with orchestral instrument ranges and performance, then just by looking at the sketch you'll kind of know which instruments to assign to which parts. This is important, because each instrument has its own sweet spot range, and performance issue; i.e, you wouldn't want a horn player to try and play soft on real high notes, it's just not going to happen because they have to blow harder for high pitches, so its pretty much going to be forte. And if the written music is a long part in that high range, they are going to tire real fast because of it. Wind and brass instruments also need time to rest. This is why its important to understand about orchestra instruments if that's the style you want to write. No shortcuts in that. After a while when you look at the written music, you'll have a pretty good sense of what instruments can perform it.


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