# Working for a fellow composer



## wonshu (Nov 26, 2007)

Since that other thread turned into quite a well... personal forum I would like to bring up the practical topic of this again.

We have the other thread that deals with the client/composer relationship but this one I hope will focus more on the working-for-another-composer relationship.

Problem A:

The main composer leaves many many decisions up to me so I have to make them only to find out that I produced a cue without enough information. So the problem is lack of direction from the main composer, how do you guys deal with this? Personally, I try not to get defensive when we talk about a cue and I try not to rub in that I wasn't told well enough in advance what to look out for. Perhaps I'm also not asking enough questions since that's something that I can control?

Problem B:

The main composer has me add/come up with specific things in one meeting only to reverse his decision afterwards. Again: I'm trying not to sit there telling him over and over again that he was the one who asked me to do it this way in the first place.

Problem C:

This is a more general problem: if I think a cue works it's really difficult for me to push it through without "telling" (through repetitively insisting that I think it's the right way to go) the main composer that he is wrong. Telling someone they're wrong is never a good thing for a relationship especially in the beginning. How do/did you guys deal with this?

Maybe we can try and stay more focused in this thread and not question the morality of working for another composer please!!!


----------



## VonRichter (Nov 26, 2007)

If he's constantly flip-flopping and forgetting what he asked for, carry a concealed recorder, and play back his contradiction right into his face! ROFL


----------



## wonshu (Nov 26, 2007)

VonRichter @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> If he's constantly flip-flopping and forgetting what he asked for, carry a concealed recorder, and play back his contradiction right into his face! ROFL



If that's the strategy of my competition then at least I don't have to worry about my future


----------



## bluejay (Nov 26, 2007)

Well perhaps a way of handling this is to take detailed notes during your meetings and at the end make a clear list of actions that he has asked for.

When you come to present the product, begin the meeting by recapping the actions he has given you. At least that way it will remind the other composer what specification you were working to.

Obviously this technique will not solve the problem. It should at least highlight to the other composer how much he is changing his mind without coming across as adversarial.

EDIT: Corrected a grammatical error.


----------



## wonshu (Nov 26, 2007)

Good point, on the first episode I was a bit sloppy writing things down, trying to find the best and fastest way to do it.

By now I have set up a little excel document that I just print out after the meeting and leave at his place. The situation has gotten a little better since then.


----------



## aeneas (Nov 26, 2007)

wonshu @ Mon 26 Nov said:


> Since that other thread turned into quite a well... personal forum I would like to bring up the practical topic of this again.


I think we have different takes about what 'personal' means. Also, I think we have different takes about what 'ghostwriting' means. If you are getting credits then you are not 'ghosting', that's my take on it. On the other thread I was addressing precisely the issue of not getting credits, i.e. 'ghosting'.

You want to be practical? Here is something practical: if he is the one who pays you, then treat your "fellow" composer as you would treat the filmmaker, only be more happy that he knows music.

More to your points - 

"Problem A: 
The main composer leaves many many decisions up to me so I have to make them only to find out that I produced a cue without enough information."
In spite of the common belief, one will never EVER have enough info to make an 'informed decision'. Nothing to do about it, except: "Use the Force, Luke!"  

"Problem B: 
The main composer has me add/come up with specific things in one meeting only to reverse his decision afterwards."
As long as he is the one who is paying, he is wasting his own time, and not yours. You can kindly remind him, now and then, something to the effect of: "alright, you're the Boss, you have the right to change your mind". 

"Problem C: 
This is a more general problem: if I think a cue works it's really difficult for me to push it through without "telling" (through repetitively insisting that I think it's the right way to go) the main composer that he is wrong." 
I think this problem comes from the fact that it is only YOU who thinks that the cue works. IMO, the one who pays you can never EVER be wrong. Repeat that to yourself, as often as you can. It might help to your (im)patience.


----------



## wonshu (Nov 26, 2007)

aeneas @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> I think this problem comes from the fact that it is only YOU who thinks that the cue works. IMO, the one who pays you can never EVER be wrong. Repeat that to yourself, as often as you can. It might help to your (im)patience.



Except that the producers generally seem to like my ideas more... but then again... what do I know.


----------



## Ashermusic (Nov 26, 2007)

wonshu @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> aeneas @ Mon Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I think this problem comes from the fact that it is only YOU who thinks that the cue works. IMO, the one who pays you can never EVER be wrong. Repeat that to yourself, as often as you can. It might help to your (im)patience.
> ...



It is HIS gig not yours and he is unlikely to change. You take the good with the bad or you walk. It is really that simple.


----------



## Ashermusic (Nov 26, 2007)

bluejay @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> Well perhaps a way of handling this is to take detailed notes during your meetings and at the end make a clear list of actions that he has asked for.
> 
> When you come to present the product, begin the meeting by recapping the actions he has given you. At least that way it will remind the other composer what specification you were working to.
> 
> ...



It is also a good way to get fired.

Sign on boss' wall:

Rule #1 The boss is always right.
Rule #2 When the boss is wrong, refer to rule #1.


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Nov 26, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> wonshu @ Mon Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > aeneas @ Mon Nov 26 said:
> ...



Exactly... 

But you may still try to get your point across. Try communicate with him, explain your POV better, and try make him see that he's not helping out


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 26, 2007)

How about just playing the basic idea for him before you go to the trouble of writing it?

Sorry if that's suggesting the bleeding obvious...


----------



## bluejay (Nov 26, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> bluejay @ Mon Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > Well perhaps a way of handling this is to take detailed notes during your meetings and at the end make a clear list of actions that he has asked for.
> ...



You'll get fired for taking notes and recapping previous meeting minutes? 

I know you've way more industry experience than I have and I understand the point you're trying to get across here (i.e. the boss/customer is always right) but in this example I think you're exaggerating beyond reality.

Mind you, I could be wrong... Who knows how many artificial stimulants your boss has taken. Perhaps his drug-fuelled paranoia would be set off by someone taking notes.


----------



## Ashermusic (Nov 26, 2007)

bluejay @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> Ashermusic @ Mon Nov 26 said:
> 
> 
> > bluejay @ Mon Nov 26 said:
> ...



No, I mean that with many bosses if you embarrass them by proving to them they are wrong they will fire you.


----------



## bluejay (Nov 26, 2007)

Well I did suggest that this would be a non-adversarial approach.

I guess I don't work in an industry with such a lot of huge and fragile egos though so perhaps I'm not used to this kind of mentality.


----------



## VonRichter (Nov 26, 2007)

You know... there is a point of diminishing sanity returns. If it gets so frustrating you can't stand it anymore, and you are *truly certain* he's being irrational, look for someone else to work with. No use beating a dead horse.


----------



## Thonex (Nov 26, 2007)

Wonshu,

The questions you are asking could also be applied to producers and directors. They change their minds and are also susceptible to selective memory.

If I find a client has me chasing my tail... then I ask that they choose some temp music ... or that I give them some temp music that they can sign off on... and then I'll have something concrete to go on. Otherwise... òf   gß-f   gß.f   gß/f   gß0f   gß1f   gß2g   gß9


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Nov 26, 2007)

midphase @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> What I tend to do with my clients is when I present the music, I always point out that I implemented their suggestions and notes. I want them to feel like all I'm doing is following their wisdom. It does cut down on the "change of mind" if I begin a conversation with something like this:
> 
> "On this next cue I followed your suggestions and advice on the direction, which by the way I think were brilliant"
> 
> That doesn't work 100% of the times though. There is a point where a client is too difficult or unsure of what it is they want and you need to stress to them the importance of developing a better line of communication.



Very good advice!


----------



## wonshu (Nov 26, 2007)

Thonex @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> The questions you are asking could also be applied to producers and directors. They change their minds and are also susceptible to selective memory.



I know, but if they're directly my client, for some reason I have an easier time than with a composer who should know better!!! I guess that's my real problem, I should be learning from him... just kidding of course... I'm actually learning a lot from him...

@Midphase

Exactly the sort of strategic advice I was looking for!!!

Best
Hans


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Nov 26, 2007)

Thonex @ Mon Nov 26 said:


> Wonshu,
> The questions you are asking could also be applied to producers and directors. They change their minds and are also susceptible to selective memory.
> If I find a client has me chasing my tail... then I ask that they choose some temp music ... or that I give them some temp music that they can sign off on... and then I'll have something concrete to go on. Otherwise... I could be shooting in the dark for quite a while.
> Cheers,
> T



+1


----------



## wonshu (Nov 26, 2007)

I agree, but from them I expect it, from a fellow composer I don't, that's what gets me confused.


----------



## Markus S (Nov 27, 2007)

Christian Marcussen @ Tue Nov 27 said:


> Composers are idiots just like everyone else



Excellent advise! :lol:


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Nov 27, 2007)

wonshu @ Tue Nov 27 said:


> uhm.... I guess...
> 
> So guys: if you have other composers working for you, please please please don't flip flop on them all the time.



Right. I was in a situation where the client was flip flopping all the time, and had to relay this to the assistant. Made me feel like a shit even though I had no fault in it at all... 

Gig from hell... 

So I agree completely.


----------

