# Orchestral Tools: Berlin Series on SINE now!



## OrchestralTools

Our flagship orchestra, available on SINE, and half-price for the holidays.

That’s right, the Berlin Series is now available on SINE, and 50% off.

We’re excited to share this with you all. Bringing the Berlin Series over to SINE has been one of the most frequent requests from our community.

Berlin Strings, Berlin Brass, Berlin Woodwinds, and Berlin Percussion are all available to purchase from our online store. 

To celebrate, we’re offering each individual collection at a 50% discount, starting now 

We’re also offering the entire collection as one comprehensive bundle for the first time ever, at a discounted rate. 

This offer will run from now until December 2. 

PS. We want to say thank you to the entire VI-Control community, we know you’ve waited a long time for this and that our communication on the topic hasn’t always been crystal clear.  We took our time with this one because we wanted to make sure we got it right. Enjoy!


----------



## filipjonathan

Soooo Berlin WW are coming to SINE?


----------



## rottoy

We're getting a piccolo sampled in black sand?


----------



## Hendrixon

OrchestralTools said:


> we're just going to leave this here...


Yea... like VI-C needs more then that lol
Heads up!


----------



## TintoL

yeahhh !!!!!!,.... sounds awesome... I hope is BW sine. .....


----------



## Sunny Schramm

so u want us to safe up, be patient and not buy TSS, Pacific Strings and Afflatus at Intro or 50% off?


----------



## Marsen

So the Horn got a sister?
Majestic Piccolo!


----------



## muziksculp

What else can this be, but The Berlin Piccolo in SINE, and it sounds wonderful. 

And I should add, they must have implemented the Pixelpoet Legato in SINE, because it sounds so much better than their Kontakt version


----------



## dhmusic

muziksculp said:


> What else can this be, but The Berlin Piccolo in SINE, and it sounds wonderful.


Def sounds like it. I'd guess this is one of the single instrument demos you see in SINE


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## muziksculp

Now, can we hear the Flute ?


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## muziksculp

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello everyone, we're just going to leave this here...
> View attachment 62578


OK, now You are making me feel much better.  

THANKS


----------



## Getsumen

Black sand imagery is interesting. I don't have BWW so I can't really compare it, but are people 100% sure that it's the existing BWW content and not some new product? I'm probably just reading too much into the sand though.

Timing would make more sense for the BWW port.


----------



## Marcus Millfield

My gosh that sounds good...


----------



## turnerofwheels

Mostly curious to see how they organize the whole BWW system in Sine (hoping the runs builder makes the cut)
Maybe we'll find out tomorrow!


----------



## oooooooooooooooooh

Oooooo very excited to see how BWW is incorporated into Sine, it's my #1 woodwinds library already. I hope this is a chance for the SFX expansion to also be ported and put on sale, I'd love to pick that up.


----------



## muziksculp

Getsumen said:


> Black sand imagery is interesting. I don't have BWW so I can't really compare it, but are people 100% sure that it's the existing BWW content and not some new product? I'm probably just reading too much into the sand though.
> 
> Timing would make more sense for the BWW port.


Don't forget that they have tweaked, polished, improved the original content that was used in the Kontakt version quite a bit for their SINE versions of all their upcoming libraries, they will undoubtedly sound much, better, and could even sound like different library, in a much better way.

That's one of the main reasons I'm super excited about seeing all of their Berlin Orchestral Libraries become available in their SINE Player. It's not just a format port, but much more than that.


----------



## Casiquire

oooooooooooooooooh said:


> Oooooo very excited to see how BWW is incorporated into Sine, it's my #1 woodwinds library already. I hope this is a chance for the SFX expansion to also be ported and put on sale, I'd love to pick that up.


I'm really interested to see the expansions updated. Currently the additional instruments are still the legacy two-mic setup and aren't designed to blend with the main library. That's what's held me back from buying them


----------



## dhmusic

turnerofwheels said:


> Mostly curious to see how they organize the whole BWW system in Sine (hoping the runs builder makes the cut)
> Maybe we'll find out tomorrow!


Was that left out of Revive? I can't remember. I have a feeling it'll be based on that re-release if it is BWW SINE


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## dhmusic

Casiquire said:


> Currently the additional instruments are still the legacy two-mic setup


You mean "Exp A: Additional Instruments" right?


----------



## Casiquire

dhmusic said:


> Was that left out of Revive? I can't remember. I have a feeling it'll be based on that re-release if it is BWW SINE


No, Revive does have runs. There are one or two secondary or tertiary instruments that could use an extra articulation or two imo, like how one of the flutes doesn't have runs etc. But for the most part I'm still over the moon about the library as a whole


----------



## Casiquire

dhmusic said:


> You mean "Exp A: Additional Instruments" right?


Correct


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## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I'm really interested to see the expansions updated. Currently the additional instruments are still the legacy two-mic setup and aren't designed to blend with the main library. That's what's held me back from buying them


If you are referring to the Soloists 1 & 2, they were not recorded in the Teledex Stage, but in the Teledex Solo Booth, so I'm not sure they will be updated with new mic options, given they were not recorded in Teledex Stage. 

Their Woodwinds Additional Instruments were recorded in the Teledex Stage, and offer 3 mic options, Room, Close, Mix.


----------



## dhmusic

muziksculp said:


> Their Woodwinds Additional Instruments were recorded in the Teledex Stage, and offer 3 mic options, Room, Close, Mix.


I think that's just 2 really


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> If you are referring to the Soloists 1 & 2, they were not recorded in the Teledex Stage, but in the Teledex Solo Booth, so I'm not sure they will be updated with new mic options, given they were not recorded in Teledex Stage.
> 
> Their Woodwinds Additional Instruments were recorded in the Teledex Stage, and offer 3 mic options, Room, Close, Mix.


I'm referring to the Additional Instruments. Close, Room, and Mix is the legacy setup. BWW has two close, ORTF, Tree, A/B, and Surround. They don't match


----------



## dhmusic

Casiquire said:


> No, Revive does have runs. There are one or two secondary or tertiary instruments that could use an extra articulation or two imo, like how one of the flutes doesn't have runs etc. But for the most part I'm still over the moon about the library as a whole


"Runs Builder" like the Orchestral String Runs engine


----------



## turnerofwheels

muziksculp said:


> If you are referring to the Soloists 1 & 2, they were not recorded in the Teledex Stage, but in the Teledex Solo Booth, so I'm not sure they will be updated with new mic options, given they were not recorded in Teledex Stage.
> 
> Their Woodwinds Additional Instruments were recorded in the Teledex Stage, and offer 3 mic options, Room, Close, Mix.


Yes, it works fine with BWW 2.2 but it's trickier with Revive.

Then there's the SFX which has 4 mic positions instead of Revive's 6


----------



## turnerofwheels

dhmusic said:


> "Runs Builder" like the Orchestral String Runs engine


The runs builder is in legacy so unfortunately only for the 2 mics. Also only for the ensembles. I do like it though


----------



## dhmusic

turnerofwheels said:


> The runs builder is in legacy so unfortunately only for the 2 mics. Also only for the ensembles. I do like it though


Come to think of it, there is a contrabassoon and bass clarinet in Berlin Orchestra. I wonder if that mix mic is based on new unreleased material.


----------



## easyrider

Sounds Amazing !


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Just saw this. Old banner or prelude?


----------



## RogiervG

Marcus Millfield said:


> Just saw this. Old banner or prelude?


i hope it's not a joke from you.. from last years BF..... (i only see realibanjo banner nomatter the refreshes)
But that would be awesome if they did it again this year... and on sine


----------



## Marcus Millfield

RogiervG said:


> i hope it's not a joke from you.. from last years BF.....
> But that would be awesome if they did it again this year... and on sine


No, seriously, just saw this on the top of the page. I just noticed this and took screenshots. I do think it's an old banner, because VI-C runs more old banners from OT. Sometimes the Berklee banner also shows intro price. You never know though...


----------



## muziksculp

Marcus Millfield said:


> No, seriously, just saw this on the top of the page. I just noticed this and took screenshots.


LOL.. I only see Real Banjo Now at $39.


----------



## RogiervG

muziksculp said:


> LOL.. I only see Real Banjo Now at $39.


me too


----------



## lettucehat

The "Runs on Sine" part is obviously new! Whether fake or not.


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## Marcus Millfield

lettucehat said:


> The "Runs on Sine" part is obviously new! Whether fake or not.


It's no fake, not about a serious topic as this.


----------



## robgb

Can I hear it without any reverb or room sound, please? Bone dry?


----------



## lettucehat

Marcus Millfield said:


> It's no fake, not about a serious topic as this.


It's a sick world, my friend.


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## Marcus Millfield

lettucehat said:


> It's a sick world, my friend.


I know, but as a fellow musician and library enthusiast, I have nothing to gain from faking this. I was as shocked as you.

Original screenshots for reference. Not that it proves anything I guess, but ok:


----------



## Casiquire

dhmusic said:


> Come to think of it, there is a contrabassoon and bass clarinet in Berlin Orchestra. I wonder if that mix mic is based on new unreleased material.


Bass clarinet is included in the expansion. That's what I'm excited for


----------



## lettucehat

Marcus Millfield said:


> I know, but as a fellow musician and library enthusiast, I have nothing to gain from faking this. I was as shocked as you.
> 
> Original screenshots for reference. Not that it proves anything I guess, but ok:


Oh I didn't mean to suggest you would fake it!


----------



## Loerpert

robgb said:


> Can I hear it without any reverb or room sound, please? Bone dry?


Nope, it's recorded at Teldex stage


----------



## Hendrixon

Marcus Millfield said:


> It's no fake, not about a serious topic as this.


China is about to invade Taiwan.
Russia is ready to invade Ukraine.
VI-C crowd will go militant if fake Berlin 50% off banner was made.

Yea, nothing wrong with this picture


----------



## Casiquire

Marcus Millfield said:


> I know, but as a fellow musician and library enthusiast, I have nothing to gain from faking this. I was as shocked as you.
> 
> Original screenshots for reference. Not that it proves anything I guess, but ok:


I imagine they jumped the gun and that's a preview of what might be coming tomorrow!


----------



## MaxOctane

Hendrixon said:


> China is about to invade Taiwan.
> Russia is ready to invade Ukraine.
> Fake Berlin 50% banner.


These things are all connected.


----------



## Hendrixon

MaxOctane said:


> These things are all connected.


----------



## easyrider

Marcus Millfield said:


> Just saw this. Old banner or prelude?


Instant Ban TBH….


----------



## RogiervG

easyrider said:


> Instant Ban TBH….


let's see if it's 50% off tomorrow..


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## easyrider

RogiervG said:


> let's see if it's 50% off tomorrow..


Even if it is faking a banner is sad imo…


----------



## jadedsean

But its only off their Berlin series right?


----------



## Casiquire

jadedsean said:


> But its only off their Berlin series right?


What is?


----------



## jadedsean

Casiquire said:


> What is?


the 50% deal?


----------



## filipjonathan

Casiquire said:


> I imagine they jumped the gun and that's a preview of what might be coming tomorrow!


But why tease with anything if it's coming tomorrow? And why _piccolo _out of everything?!


----------



## easyrider

jadedsean said:


> the 50% deal?


What 50% deal?


----------



## jadedsean




----------



## RogiervG

jadedsean said:


>


Vi control 50% off? wait whaaaat?


----------



## jadedsean




----------



## easyrider

jadedsean said:


>


It’s fake…


----------



## RogiervG

easyrider said:


> It’s fake…


Banner seems fake, but the discount could be real.. soooooooo...
or it's not fake.. or it's fake... or it's not fake... or it's fake... or it......


----------



## jadedsean

easyrider said:


> It’s fake…


Oh shit!!!!


----------



## Casiquire

Why are we assuming it's fake, and not that they put it up early?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Casiquire said:


> Why are we assuming it's fake, and not that they put it up early?


If you faked this, your name would be Mud on this forum for a long time. Seems unlikely that it is a fake from someone who has posted 400+ messages.


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## Loerpert

Can confirm this is the Berlin WW piccolo. Has the same sound and same roomtone.


----------



## RogiervG

Casiquire said:


> Why are we assuming it's fake, and not that they put it up early?


It's called protection of one's self.. for a potential disappointment. 
If it appears true.. even a greater joy will be felt.  (like a dream comes true)


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## chrisav

RogiervG said:


> It's called protection of one's self.. for a potential disappointment. If it appears true.. even a greater joy will be felt.  (like a dream comes true)



Sure, but blindly assuming it's a fake and saying it should be ban-worthy (not that you did this) is a bit rich 😂



Spoiler



although, ngl, I kind of hope it's fake, though I have no reason to assume it is. The sales announcements are starting to stress me tf out 😂


----------



## RogiervG

chrisav said:


> Sure, but blindly assuming it's a fake and saying it should be ban-worthy (not that you did this) is a bit rich 😂


true


----------



## robgb

Loerpert said:


> Nope, it's recorded at Teldex stage


That's what I was afraid of.


----------



## dhmusic

robgb said:


> That's what I was afraid of.


Is Teldex haunted or something...


----------



## dhmusic

Casiquire said:


> Why are we assuming it's fake, and not that they put it up early?


This has "Spitfire hit-job" written all over it


----------



## Evans

dhmusic said:


> Is Teldex haunted or something...


Forget Berlin Strings on SINE. I want Spoopy Strings.


----------



## Casiquire

dhmusic said:


> This has "Spitfire hit-job" written all over it





Evans said:


> Forget Berlin Strings on SINE. I want Spoopy Strings.


They ARE the ones who made "Scary Strings"...


----------



## chrisav

dhmusic said:


> This has "Spitfire hit-job" written all over it


Somewhere in a Berlin office, an OT employee opens an unmarked letter. Pulling out a sheet of paper from the envelope, their eyes widen in horror as they read the message spelled out in newspaper cut-outs:

"I'M VERY EXCITED."


----------



## MaxOctane

chrisav said:


> Somewhere in a Berlin office, an OT employee opens an unmarked letter. Pulling out a sheet of paper from the envelope, their eyes widen in horror as they read the message spelled out in newspaper cut-outs:
> 
> "I'M VERY EXCITED."


@chrisav officially wins this thread!


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Love you guys too...


----------



## ism

dhmusic said:


> This has "Spitfire hit-job" written all over it


Ok, motive. But if this is going to be a proper conspiracy theory, surely Realitone has opportunity ...


----------



## dhmusic

ism said:


> Ok, motive. But if this is going to be a proper conspiracy theory, surely Realitone has opportunity ...


Who do you think's running this whole operation


----------



## ism

dhmusic said:


> Who do you think's running this whole operation


My instinct it to suspect @doctoremmet, no doubt in some nefarious ploy to get me to buy more 8dio (*) 

(*) which is at least as sensible as the rest of the conspiracy.


----------



## Nigel Andreola

I played the demo, and noticed some odd chirping noises. I paused the video and the chirping stopped. I started it again and the chirping started again. After the demo finished, the chirping continued. It got the birds outside very excited and they were singing along.


----------



## dhmusic

Nigel Andreola said:


> I played the demo, and noticed some odd chirping noises. I paused the video and the chirping stopped. I started it again and the chirping started again. After the demo finished, the chirping continued. It got the birds outside very excited and they were singing along.


"Augmented Reality Piccolo for SINE"


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## muziksculp

Does Orchestral Tools own The Teledex Stage and Studios in Berlin ?


----------



## Futchibon

Plot twist: the 50% off is true, but OT have done a Cinesamples and doubled the price of the Sine versions so it works out the same 😉


----------



## Casiquire

Isn't it just about midnight over there? Not that I'm impatient or anything


----------



## Getsumen

muziksculp said:


> Does Orchestral Tools own The Teledex Stage and Studios in Berlin ?


I don't believe so. From some Wikipedia sleuthing it seems that Teldex is owned by Teldec which is owned by Warner


----------



## robgb

dhmusic said:


> Is Teldex haunted or something...


Yes. By the ghost of baked-in room sound. Evil bastard.


----------



## Trash Panda

Futchibon said:


> Plot twist: the 50% off is true, but OT have done a Cinesamples and doubled the price of the Sine versions so it works out the same 😉


You just summoned Steve!


----------



## dhmusic

robgb said:


> Yes. By the ghost of baked-in room sound. Evil bastard.


I wish they'd do more dry libraries to compliment the Multi Mic ones too. I use their close/spot mics with a teldex convolution quite often actually


----------



## Hendrixon

Trash Panda said:


> You just summoned Steve!


----------



## DJiLAND

In porting to SINE, BW should be better than it is now.
I remember when BW was released it was king. And now it's time to be the best again.


----------



## constaneum

DJiLAND said:


> In porting to SINE, BW should be better than it is now.
> I remember when BW was released it was king. And now it's time to be the best again.


wonder what's the upgrade path for the legacy owners.


----------



## lettucehat

constaneum said:


> wonder what's the upgrade path for the legacy owners.


I wonder what's the downgrade path for new owners, to be honest!


----------



## Zanshin

Now I've seen the banner haha.


----------



## moon

Zanshin said:


> Now I've seen the banner haha.








Me as well.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Marcus Millfield said:


> Just saw this. Old banner or prelude?


I think @Marcus Millfield is owed an apology because I just saw the banner too, and it is not from last year. On sale will be the Berlin Mains and Berlin Symphonic Strings.

Edit: Looks like I'm late to the game.


----------



## Casiquire

I see it too


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Called it.


----------



## Alchemedia

Just now...but no disc on OT's site.


----------



## holywilly

Maybe further discount for Berlin Orchestra owners, hell YEAH!


----------



## AMBi

I even got ad BINGO!
Hopefully their BF earnings will help them break even from all the ad space they seem to be be buying


----------



## dhmusic

AMBi said:


> I even got ad BINGO!
> Hopefully their BF earnings will help them break even from all the ad space they seem to be be buying


I've been immortalized... thank you so much, AMBi


----------



## AMBi

dhmusic said:


> I've been immortalized... thank you so much, AMBi


And for whatever reason you're the only part of the image that got discolored in the upload process.

You don't have much time left


----------



## MaxOctane

This was exactly the BF sale I was looking forward to. Bye-bye wallet.'

*Berlin owners: *_*Are all these must-haves?*_

I have Berlin WW from last year's sale and do love it so!


----------



## dhmusic

AMBi said:


> And for whatever reason you're the only part of the image that got discolored in the upload process.
> 
> You don't have much time left


haha don't worry AMBi it's perfectly normal - that's me transforming #FinalFormThangs


----------



## dhmusic

MaxOctane said:


> This was exactly the BF sale I was looking forward to. Bye-bye wallet.'
> 
> *Berlin owners: *_*Are all these must-haves?*_
> 
> I have Berlin WW from last year's sale and do love it so!


If they are all that you have or all that you use, yes absolutely.

...not sure how helpful that is... 

no. but yes


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## Rudianos

well I guess im spending money tommorow. Love these banner teases


----------



## kaiyoti

The url for the gif is: https://www.orchestraltools.com/?utm_source=vic&utm_medium=bannner&utm_campaign=bmbf

bmbf = berlin main black friday?


----------



## dhmusic

MaxOctane said:


> The only libs I have are Spitfire Symphonic Orchestra, SCS, BBCSO Pro, a few Spitfire Swarms, the Olafur libs, Afflatus, VSL Syncron Strings Pro, VSL Elite Strings, the Berlin Inspires and TIMEs, Tundra, Loegria, NEO, HZS, Tallinn, Miroire, Arks 1+2+4, LCO, CS2, Berlin WW soloists, Berlin Special Bows, and a few more.
> 
> Feels like I need the rest of Berlin Mains to fill in the gaps.


Oh didn't realize we were fam!

yeah get 'em


----------



## Trash Panda

dhmusic said:


> haha don't worry AMBi it's perfectly normal - that's me transforming #FinalFormThangs


Seven days!
*click*
*dial tone*


----------



## Marcus Millfield

Now OT's site provider thinks it's getting Ddos'ed from all VI-C members refreshing their page every 2 seconds.


----------



## Getsumen

Each time you click the time until Nov 18 decreases by the amount of time it took you to click.....

So start clicking away!


----------



## dhmusic

Trash Panda said:


> Seven days!
> *click*
> *dial tone*


Sephiroth: "7 seconds til the end"

Cloud: *Gives stern look lookin all cute and stuff. awwww*


----------



## Soundbed

It's the 18th here...


----------



## Loerpert

No doubt about it
https://vi-control.net/community/data/siropu/am/user/161954e404d3fc.gif


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Damn... I'm in the middle of writing a full album where the brass is ONLY Berlin Brass. Going to have to resist very hard editing these legato lines again.


----------



## constaneum

yup. i'm seeing this too


----------



## constaneum

Berlin Symphonic Strings (BSS) looks tempting. good to be used with SSS? but how's the mic merge with BSS? Already fixed ?


----------



## RogiervG

constaneum said:


> Berlin Symphonic Strings (BSS) looks tempting. good to be used with SSS? but how's the mic merge with BSS? Already fixed ?


Well, BSS is not on sale, only berlin main series (as you can see in the banner)

@OrchestralTools please update your website accordingly  Still no sales to be found on the website.


----------



## Loerpert

RogiervG said:


> Well, BSS is not on sale, only berlin main series (as you can see in the banner)
> 
> @OrchestralTools please update your website accordingly  Still no sales to be found on the website.


BSS is also on sale. It's actually in the banner after Percussion


----------



## emilio_n

Afternoon at this part of the globe... OT, let us know the details!!


----------



## Marcus Millfield

The workday had just started in Germany. They haven't even had their first coffee yet!


----------



## emilio_n

Marcus Millfield said:


> The workday had just started in Germany. They haven't even had their first coffee yet!


I know, I know, I just want to raise the expectation. 
I hope they say something in your morning.


----------



## lucor

I hope they'll also do a 50% sale on the upgrade from BWW to BWW Revive.


----------



## RogiervG

Loerpert said:


> BSS is also on sale. It's actually in the banner after Percussion


Update: now i see the NEW banner too.. which includes BSS AND Berlin main


----------



## Futchibon




----------



## emilio_n




----------



## emilio_n

Now the banner is everywhere!


----------



## muziksculp

Besides 50 % OFF, The OT adv. banner mentions *The Berlin Series** (Runs On SINE). *

Finally !   

Tomorrow Nov. 18th is going to be a wonderful day


----------



## halfaplanck

It would be nice if that would also include the StaffPad edition of such libraries... Just saying.


----------



## Alex Cadiem

- Me going on 18th November on OT website.
- OT's marketing guy:


----------



## RogiervG

I am wondering too.. why isn't the site being updated with the discounted pricing? (or a countdown timer somewhere, or even an update here by OT)
Seems that either the banner is too soon, or the they forgot to update the site
Or they align with the US timezones, instead of European zones, the latter it's around 10 AM (with an hour difference before and after depending on where you are in Europe), so aligning with US would be odd, since they are German


----------



## mixedmoods

Ok, so – it's about to begin ...








Berlin Strings


Combining five meticulously captured string sections with a wide array of articulations and exceptional dynamic range, Berlin Strings has earned its reputation as the definitive orchestral strings collection. Small ensembles provide exceptional detail and definition, enhanced with multiple...




www.orchestraltools.com


----------



## ZeeCount

Woodwinds now as well:


----------



## branshen

ZeeCount said:


> Woodwinds now as well:


Lol the sine walkthrough video on BWW page is linked the wrong video (goes to a twenty one pilots song??)









Berlin Woodwinds


Part of the acclaimed Berlin Series, Berlin Woodwinds raises the bar for detailed and true-to-life woodwinds. 12 individual instruments let you construct expressive solo lines, custom ensembles, and complex voicings. All instruments offer a wide range of articulations for maximum depth. Recorded...




www.orchestraltools.com


----------



## ZeeCount

Oooooooh


----------



## Nimrod7

Is there a chance to offer the entire bundle with a deeper discount?


----------



## ZeeCount

Nimrod7 said:


> Is there a chance to offer the entire bundle with a deeper discount?


They didn't last year, so I wouldn't expect this time either.


----------



## Go To 11

Cool seeing this happen in real time! Love the detective work. They’re awake, they’ve had breakfast and coffee and they’re doing it!


----------



## emilio_n

Nimrod7 said:


> Is there a chance to offer the entire bundle with a deeper discount?


I remember that they talked about it here, but I am not sure if they will do right now during the BF or later. I will wait and see...


----------



## ZeeCount




----------



## constaneum

ZeeCount said:


>


Sad...what about us existing owner of Berlin percussion ? Do we get special discount for such "crossgrade"?


----------



## Frederick

Last year I only picked up the woodwinds and the strings with the argument that the brass was missing the loudest layer and that the percussion didn't include the timpani. They sure did listen! Can't let them down now and must purchase the brass and the percussion (and the symphonic strings)


----------



## emilio_n

constaneum said:


> Sad...what about us existing owner of Berlin percussion ? Do we get special discount for such "crossgrade"?


I think you will get with the timpani when you port to sine


----------



## mixedmoods

emilio_n said:


> I remember that they talked about it here, but I am not sure if they will do right now during the BF or later. I will wait and see...


There is a "special" bundle mentioned in the video:


----------



## manuhz

Yes


----------



## emilio_n

Frederick said:


> Last year I only picked up the woodwinds and the strings with the argument that the brass was missing the loudest layer and that the percussion didn't include the timpani. They sure did listen! Can't let them down now and must purchase the brass and the percussion (and the symphonic strings)


This destroy all my BF strategy. Now debating between all Berlin or my initial plan.


----------



## Loerpert

Just calculated from the specs pages. The whole Berlin Main thing combined will be 390GB SINE compressed. That is atleast 150GB (don't have the exact number here right now) less than the Kontakt version while it contains more samples! (Timpani, Brass FFF)


----------



## constaneum

If you notice, all the flagship started showing SINE's space required. So after this great sales, I believe it's porting over to SINE with an offered crossgrade price


----------



## Loerpert

constaneum said:


> If you notice, all the flagship started showing SINE's space required. So after this great sales, I believe it's porting over to SINE with an offered crossgrade price


Well they said the SINE version would be free for the Kontakt owners. So I doubt it?


----------



## ZeeCount

Looks like they will charge a fee for recent purchases.


----------



## constaneum

I won't be surprised SINE version Berlin Percussion ended up at the price of 599 with Timpani added in. Hopefully free upgrade for existing owners


----------



## RogiervG

I still see no SINE option for purchase.


----------



## ZeeCount

RogiervG said:


> I still see no SINE option for purchase.


It's not in the sine player store either. I was hoping to set it downloading and then go to bed.


----------



## constaneum

RogiervG said:


> I still see no SINE option for purchase.


Coz it's either not ready or planned to be released after sales


----------



## RogiervG

constaneum said:


> Coz it's not ready or planned to be released after the sales goes off


That would make no sense at all. I think they are still updating the website piece by piece.. 
(the text clearly shows: runs on sine, also the banner shows it, even the supplied videos demo it in sine player.
Also upgrading from kontakt to sine costs money, which means the selling price is wrong (hidden costs): promoting for "running on sine" yet not being available, but when they are, you need to pay extra? Naah.. that would be very misleading and i don't think OT trying to mislead anyone. They are TOP tier company afterall)


----------



## branshen

ZeeCount said:


> Looks like they will charge a fee for recent purchases.


I've contacted them to ask how much this fee is.. I will report back when/if I get a response.

Edit: This is their reply:

_"The upgrade fee is 10% of the entire full price collection. However, today all Berlin Series mains (strings, percussion, woodwinds, brass) collections have been released for SINEplayer and are currently on our black Friday sale (50% off). We strongly recommend purchasing the SINEplayer versions of these collections to receive updates to the collections."_


----------



## ZeeCount

A la carte is showing for Berlin Percussion, but not in the sine player itself.


----------



## Alex Cadiem

Just wait... BSS is a main colletion, isn't it? Why is it still full price?


----------



## RogiervG

I also don't see the Berlin symphonic strings discounted, yet the banner says it's included in the sale.

I guess they are still updating the site content, which takes some time (maybe their content caching systems that need to update, or they need to redo page by page)


----------



## Evans

Y'all, obviously they're in the middle of making web page updates.


----------



## ZeeCount

Berlin Woodwinds just showed up in my Sine player!


----------



## ZeeCount

Looks like the legacy collection is not included in the sine version of Berlin Woodwinds.


----------



## Nimrod7

The Berlin series shows sine in the Specifications. This is Berlin Strings:


----------



## ZeeCount

Nimrod7 said:


> The Berlin series shows sine in the Specifications. This is Berlin Strings:


Yeah, all of the collections are live on Sine now:


----------



## Alex Cadiem

BSS -50% TOO RIGHT NOW, YESSSSSSSS


----------



## jamwerks

Very cool of OT to add a "FFF" layer to the brass, AND make it free to previous owners !

This is very agressive pricing. Great deals !!


----------



## Go To 11

Game on!


----------



## galactic orange

ZeeCount said:


> Yeah, all of the collections are live on Sine now:


They’re just showing up? No need to enter serial numbers and such?


----------



## Nimrod7

Go To 11 said:


> Game on!


Hey guys, if I disappear after this purchase, please look for me in nearby rivers or woods.


----------



## Go To 11

mixedmoods said:


> There is a "special" bundle mentioned in the video:


Can you share a link to the video? I can’t seem to find any new ones.


----------



## OT_Tobias

galactic orange said:


> They’re just showing up? No need to enter serial numbers and such?


It depends when you bought the Kontakt versions, see https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/381-sine-crossgrades-faq


----------



## ZeeCount

galactic orange said:


> They’re just showing up? No need to enter serial numbers and such?


I bought them last year on the Black Friday Sale, and they automatically showed up.


----------



## Niv Schrieber

OT_Tobias said:


> It depends when you bought the Kontakt versions, see https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/381-sine-crossgrades-faq


Hey, is there a special price for the berklee berlin orchestra owners? I remember you guys said there will be. Thanks.


----------



## OT_Tobias

Niv Schrieber said:


> Hey, is there a special price for the berklee berlin orchestra owners? I remember you guys said there will be. Thanks.


Yes, the individual Berlin Mains are 20% off for Berlin Orchestra customers. The discount is automatic. As mentioned on the bundle page, it does not apply to the bundle, so just buy the 4 individual Main Collections (the price is the same - 20%).


----------



## lucor

@OT_Tobias As someone who owns Berlin Strings, Berlin Percussion and Berlin Woodwinds Legacy I'd be tempted by the bundle, but currently I'd essentially have to completely rebuy Berlin Woodwinds since it doesn't factor in that I already own legacy. Is there a way around that?


----------



## Alex Cadiem

@OT_Tobias I have a question: if I buy the Berlin Strings and put the serial in Berln Symphonic Strings promotion window, I'll obtain an extra discount? Like 50%+Crossgrade?


----------



## Aitcpiano

I don't own any of the Berlin series but 50% off the full bundle on SINE brings it to a better price for the whole thing. Shame I get a 20% VAT added to the cost, makes it still way too expensive for me to buy the bundle in one go.


----------



## lucor

Alex Cadiem said:


> @OT_Tobias I have a question: if I buy the Berlin Strings and put the serial in Berln Symphonic Strings promotion window, I'll obtain an extra discount? Like 50%+Crossgrade?


Looks like it, I can get BSS for 147,56 € (VAT included).  Don't mind if I do...


----------



## chrisav

The 10% support fee to go from Kontakt to Sine only goes that way, right? You can't crossgrade from Sine to Kontakt down the line?


----------



## Go To 11

OT_Tobias said:


> Yes, the individual Berlin Mains are 20% off for Berlin Orchestra customers. The discount is automatic. As mentioned on the bundle page, it does not apply to the bundle, so just buy the 4 individual Main Collections (the price is the same - 20%).


Is that 20% on top of the 50% discount, so 70%?


----------



## Nimrod7

Can anyone clarify this for the Symphonic Strings? 
I just got the Berlin collection, but I have no serials.


----------



## matthieuL

New SINE release  

Version: v1.0.7​ 
*Changes in this version:*

New features:

SINE Player now supports tempo sync and timestretching for patches that use this functionality..
Auto Tempo will adjust the tempo scaling (half time, normal time, double time) to the host tempo to get the best playback.
Lock to Beat starts playback on the next beat, making it easy to play timed repetitions or similar.


----------



## Alex Cadiem

Guys in your opinion, make it sense to buy Berlin Brass if I already have THB? Also buy BS if I already have BSS? It worth?


----------



## AndrewY

OT_Tobias said:


> Yes, the individual Berlin Mains are 20% off for Berlin Orchestra customers. The discount is automatic. As mentioned on the bundle page, it does not apply to the bundle, so just buy the 4 individual Main Collections (the price is the same - 20%).


Thanks OT! The 20% is showing up automatically in my cart


----------



## Frederick

Ok I bought the Berlin bundle for 749 Euro and BSS for 150 Euro. They didn't subtract 50% of the crossgrade discount! Thank you OT! (Already owned BS and BWW revive)


----------



## constaneum

OT_Tobias said:


> Yes, the individual Berlin Mains are 20% off for Berlin Orchestra customers. The discount is automatic. As mentioned on the bundle page, it does not apply to the bundle, so just buy the 4 individual Main Collections (the price is the same - 20%).


You mean additional 20% on top of the 50%?? My BWW legacy license doesn't appear in my account. Need help.


----------



## Go To 11

AndrewY said:


> Thanks OT! The 20% is showing up automatically in my cart


Can you share a screenshot? I'm trying to work out if it's 20% on top of 50%, so 70% discounted?


----------



## Evans

constaneum said:


> You mean additional 20% on top of the 50%?? My BWW legacy license doesn't appear in my account. Need help.


I'm not sure that Legacy counts.


----------



## constaneum

Evans said:


> I'm not sure that Legacy counts.


I'm actually looking at upgrade from legacy to revive.


----------



## lucor

constaneum said:


> I'm actually looking at upgrade from legacy to revive.


Yes, it would be great to also get the 50% off on the BWW legacy to revive upgrade. 
That would also solve my issue with the current bundle pricing, because I could just buy the upgrade first and then complete the full bundle afterwards.


----------



## JF

OT,
Please consider 50% off on revive upgrade. I feel it is only fair to those of us who have bought BWW main at a much higher price.

Thanks.


----------



## Robin

Spot mics of the Brass (tested Tpt1, Tbn1, Tbn2 so far) seem still left-right inverted compared to the tree mics. This was already an issue in the Kontakt version, can anyone confirm?


----------



## Francisco Lamolda

If they fixed this issue, I'll probably buy BB.


----------



## holywilly

OT_Tobias said:


> Yes, the individual Berlin Mains are 20% off for Berlin Orchestra customers. The discount is automatic. As mentioned on the bundle page, it does not apply to the bundle, so just buy the 4 individual Main Collections (the price is the same - 20%).


I’m the owner of Berlin Orchestra and I didn’t see any 20% off offer.


----------



## Go To 11

Francisco Lamolda said:


> If they fixed this issue, I'll probably buy BB.


Damn that was back in 2017. This is enough to stop my GAS for sure, thanks for sharing. I'll wait to see what the new SINE version is looking like, but copying MIDI between instruments has to be as flawless as Cinematic Studio for me personally.


----------



## Robin

Francisco Lamolda said:


> If they fixed this issue, I'll probably buy BB.


Yes, from a first check this seems to be fixed.


----------



## constaneum

JF said:


> OT,
> Please consider 50% off on revive upgrade. I feel it is only fair to those of us who have bought BWW main at a much higher price.
> 
> Thanks.


apart from the 50% off on revive crossgrade. Where do you find the option to crossgrade? I know they used to have it last time when revive was released.


----------



## Casiquire

Decision time...to buy the strings for Kontakt, or for SINE? On the one hand I can't mess with the legatos in SINE, but on the other, kontakt is clearly in the past


----------



## Zanshin

Casiquire said:


> Decision time...to buy the strings for Kontakt, or for SINE? On the one hand I can't mess with the legatos in SINE, but on the other, kontakt is clearly in the past


Yeah that's a hard one. The mic merge is going to be the mutts nuts for a full Berlin template ...


----------



## Robin

The biggest issue with these libraries now is that Sine doesn't allow for proper purging yet which makes it almost impossible to use the entire orchestra within reasonable hardware specs.


----------



## I like music

Is the RAM hit for Sine similar to Kontakt (referring specifically to Woodwinds here)? I have never used Sine, but I have Revive in Kontakt, so now I'm tempted to use them in Sine and see how it goes!!!


----------



## arafaratanran

matthieuL said:


> New SINE release
> 
> Version: v1.0.7​
> *Changes in this version:*
> 
> New features:
> 
> SINE Player now supports tempo sync and timestretching for patches that use this functionality..
> Auto Tempo will adjust the tempo scaling (half time, normal time, double time) to the host tempo to get the best playback.
> Lock to Beat starts playback on the next beat, making it easy to play timed repetitions or similar.


Unfortunately, still no improvements concerning midi control in Sine ... Guys, am I really the only person who cares for that kind of shit? If you do, too, please comment in the Sine thread:





SINE player


I find Capsule much more intuitive myself. I'm a very slow adopter to SINE though. There's only one single instrument in SINE i use, and i say "use" loosely; i pull it up to fart around with it from time to time just to hear a melody and have never actually used it in a project. And even for...




vi-control.net





That and the purging problem Robin mentioned a few posts before are really big problems. I could actually live without purging, as I just disable the full instrument in VEpro (or Cubase).


----------



## Casiquire

I like music said:


> Is the RAM hit for Sine similar to Kontakt (referring specifically to Woodwinds here)? I have never used Sine, but I have Revive in Kontakt, so now I'm tempted to use them in Sine and see how it goes!!!


I think the RAM use should be pretty similar, maybe slightly less due to compression. Check your products in SINE, you could always do what I'm doing: download just one instrument and see how you feel about it


----------



## Jackdaw

I don't understand this celebration as there was no Ark 3 + 4 porting or sale :(


----------



## RogiervG

Jackdaw said:


> I don't understand this celebration as there was no Ark 3 + 4 porting or sale :(


Not everyone can be happy with every sale, just reality. Needs/wants are different per person.
I am happy with the sale, second year in a row, with 50% discount on the Main libraries (after years of barely having any on them)

Maybe they will do an Ark sale during the holiday sales.


----------



## Jackdaw

RogiervG said:


> Not everyone can be happy with every sale, just reality. Needs/wants are different per person.
> I am happy with the sale, second year in a row, with 50% discount on the Main libraries (after years of barely having any on them)
> 
> Maybe they will do an Ark sale during the holiday sales.


Well my post was meant to be at least partly satiric...


----------



## Robin

arafaratanran said:


> I could actually live without purging, as I just disable the full instrument in VEpro (or Cubase).


You can also fully "purge" in Sine, problem is that as soon as you play one note it will load the entire instrument. So if you need just a few kb worth of spiccato notes from that violin, you will need to load the entire several GB large instrument (or unload all non-Spiccato playing techniques by hand).


----------



## I like music

Casiquire said:


> I think the RAM use should be pretty similar, maybe slightly less due to compression. Check your products in SINE, you could always do what I'm doing: download just one instrument and see how you feel about it


Yeah, just about to download sine. I've got Infinite as my main woods, but that's also partly because I'm so limited on RAM (32GB for a whole orchestral template means I can't get HWS and Berlin WW in with everything else). Hoping the Mic Merge feature allows for less RAM usage here, and at the very least I can have basic articulations loaded up via Sine.

That demo sure did sound good...


----------



## Casiquire

Jackdaw said:


> I don't understand this celebration as there was no Ark 3 + 4 porting or sale :(


I hope these eventually do go on sale but maybe in a couple months when I've recovered


----------



## lucor

Robin said:


> The biggest issue with these libraries now is that Sine doesn't allow for proper purging yet which makes it almost impossible to use the entire orchestra within reasonable hardware specs.


What's nice though is the fact that SINE has very little RAM overhead (I think like 40mb per instance) without any samples loaded, unlike CAPSULE where a single multi patch will already take up almost 700mb of RAM even though everything is purged. 
And since most often you'll need several of them to build proper keyswitch patches, your looking at 1-2GB vs. 40mb of RAM usage in a purged instrument.
Once SINE has proper purging you'll basically be able to have the whole Berlin Orchestra loaded and ready to go with a RAM usage of ~2GB, which is pretty crazy.

And SINE has basically no impact on project file size. I think my template could shrink by a whopping 1GB in file size if everything CAPSULE was replaced with SINE, which will be great for my sanity in regards to saving times.


----------



## I like music

Oh wait, no purge? Shit...


----------



## arafaratanran

Robin said:


> You can also fully "purge" in Sine, problem is that as soon as you play one note it will load the entire instrument. So if you need just a few kb worth of spiccato notes from that violin, you will need to load the entire several GB large instrument (or unload all non-Spiccato playing techniques by hand).


You are probably right that such intelligent loading of content as needed seems to be the way how to work in the future - especially with the new Apple laptops with fewer ram but ultra fast SSDs. My concern is certainly rather connected to my old-school way of working with a large template. With my 128 GB slave machine I don't really mind when the full instrument is loaded - even when I just need a few spiccato notes. At the moment, my priority is CC control (automation could be an option as well, but it isn't as long as VEpro and Cubase cannot work together in a more effective way).


----------



## filipjonathan

Yeah, the purge option (or lack of it) is what's keeping me from getting anything more demanding from OT.


----------



## Casiquire

I like music said:


> Is the RAM hit for Sine similar to Kontakt (referring specifically to Woodwinds here)? I have never used Sine, but I have Revive in Kontakt, so now I'm tempted to use them in Sine and see how it goes!!!


Ah. Same articulations, same microphones, SINE comes in at 1.1gb and kontakt comes in at 2. Plus, the SINE version bundles in the non-vibrato as well. That's a decent reduction in RAM.

Question though, where are the different vibrato types in SINE? Immediate versus Romantic, etc?


----------



## ism

I seem to recall that the issue with memory was that the capsule Kontakt script was memory intensive? If so, a significant memory reduction in sine isn’t an unreasonable hope.


----------



## Niv Schrieber

OT_Tobias said:


> Yes, the individual Berlin Mains are 20% off for Berlin Orchestra customers. The discount is automatic. As mentioned on the bundle page, it does not apply to the bundle, so just buy the 4 individual Main Collections (the price is the same - 20%).


There is something really weird happening. I could see the loyalty discount when logged in like an hour ago, but now i cant see it anymore, just the normal 50 percent sale price. For example i could see that berlin brass for me was 319 euro, and now its back to 399, and it isnt telling me that i have the berlin orchestra loyalty discount anymore.


----------



## Robin

Casiquire said:


> Question though, where are the different vibrato types in SINE? Immediate versus Romantic, etc?


Performance tab or CC03 by default.


----------



## I like music

Casiquire said:


> Ah. Same articulations, same microphones, SINE comes in at 1.1gb and kontakt comes in at 2. Plus, the SINE version bundles in the non-vibrato as well. That's a decent reduction in RAM.
> 
> Question though, where are the different vibrato types in SINE? Immediate versus Romantic, etc?


Oh wow. That's quite the reduction. Just downloaded Sine. Not sure how Mic Merge works (or is that not available for the library yet?)


----------



## Casiquire

Robin said:


> Performance tab or CC03 by default.


That seems to only go between vibrato and no vibrato. I don't see the different vibrato styles


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Hmm I have Berlin Brass, but it wont show up in SINE - And when i try and activate it with serial it says Too many tries after trying it. 

It works fine in Kontakt, so am not sure why it wont add to SINE ?


----------



## Casiquire

Alright I've made my decision. I'm going with kontakt. The difference that legato adjustments in kontakt can make in the performance is huge and i don't see SINE including such a feature any time soon. I have the same patch open in SINE and Kontakt and it's night and day.


----------



## Go To 11

Casiquire said:


> Alright I've made my decision. I'm going with kontakt. The difference that legato adjustments in kontakt can make in the performance is huge and i don't see SINE including such a feature any time soon. I have the same patch open in SINE and Kontakt and it's night and day.


I would love an audio example! The good thing is it’s only 10% price to go to SINE later. The bad thing is you don’t get new features like the FFF layer in the brass.


----------



## Casiquire

Go To 11 said:


> I would love an audio example! The good thing is it’s only 10% price to go to SINE later. The bad thing is you don’t get new features like the FFF layer in the brass.


You read my mind. My current thought is to download only the brass in SINE

As far as examples it might be a minute for me, but it sounds much like the default setting in the original libraries. So you can hear the difference in the Pixelpoet Trick thread


----------



## ka00

Casiquire said:


> Alright I've made my decision. I'm going with kontakt. The difference that legato adjustments in kontakt can make in the performance is huge and i don't see SINE including such a feature any time soon. I have the same patch open in SINE and Kontakt and it's night and day.


Just getting these collections to SINE is a major milestone. Big congrats to the @OrchestralTools team!

I do hope they are paying attention to the "PixelPoet trick" thread though. A sample start control in SINE would be super appreciated. The StaffPad versions should be another great indicator that the Berlin samples themselves have longer legato transitions that could be taken advantage of in Sine player.


----------



## Robin

Casiquire said:


> That seems to only go between vibrato and no vibrato. I don't see the different vibrato styles


It shows up whatever is available in the patch.


----------



## Casiquire

ka00 said:


> Just getting these collections to SINE is a major milestone. Big congrats to the @OrchestralTools team!
> 
> I do hope they are paying attention to the "PixelPoet trick" thread though. A sample start control in SINE would be super appreciated. The StaffPad versions should be another great indicator that the Berlin samples themselves have longer legato transitions that could be taken advantage of in Sine player.


Agreed! I don't hate SINE at all and it's grown on me, and i just hope they're paying attention too. 



Robin said:


> It shows up whatever is available in the patch.


Does that mean we don't get all the same vibrato types in the SINE version then? That doesn't sound right


----------



## Lassi Tani

jamwerks said:


> Very cool of OT to add a "FFF" layer to the brass, AND make it free to previous owners !
> 
> This is very agressive pricing. Great deals !!


Really! I need to test ut out as soon as it downloads!! Hopefully it will be smooth all the way from low to high dynamics!


----------



## Robin

Casiquire said:


> Does that mean we don't get all the same vibrato types in the SINE version then? That doesn't sound right


I didn't find any missing vibrato types yet compared to the Kontakt version. Which ones are you missing?


----------



## Casiquire

Robin said:


> I didn't find any missing vibrato types yet compared to the Kontakt version. Which ones are you missing?


Kontakt has without vibrato, immediate vibrato, and romantic vibrato. SINE just has vibrato on/off, so there's one missing, right?


----------



## Robin

Casiquire said:


> Kontakt has without vibrato, immediate vibrato, and romantic vibrato. SINE just has vibrato on/off, so there's one missing, right?


In which library and which patch?

BS Vln1:


----------



## Casiquire

Robin said:


> In which library and which patch?


BWW, let's say Flute 3


----------



## Casiquire

The question of which patch is a little tricky since they don't seem to be a direct translation between the two players


----------



## Robin

BWW is the Revive content only, maybe you had the legacy one?


----------



## Rudianos

Have Kontakt Timpani, no crossgrade into Percussion? Any new features? @OrchestralTools


----------



## Casiquire

Robin said:


> BWW is the Revive content only, maybe you had the legacy one?


I have both, since i bought them last Black Friday. I'm referring to the Revive patches which i believe are the only ones brought over to SINE


----------



## Robin

Flute 3 Revive Kontakt:


----------



## Robin

"Immediate" never refered to vibrato but attack, as did "soft" and "accented" which are all there in Sine with "Sustain" being the immediate ones and Sustain soft and Sustain accented the other ones.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I can't download yet because I have to buy an SSD. I am curious, though, have they addressed the volume issue in BWW? They were so ridiculously quiet in Kontakt.


----------



## Breaker

Wow, free timpani 
Haven't tried SINE since early 2020 but this seems like a perfect occasion to check it out again.

I have also ignored BSS completely so far but 124€ seems like decent deal.


----------



## Casiquire

Robin said:


> Flute 3 Revive Kontakt:


Ah. The sustain is the immediate. I think i follow now


----------



## Casiquire

Jett Hitt said:


> I can't download yet because I have to buy an SSD. I am curious, though, have they addressed the volume issue in BWW? They were so ridiculously quiet in Kontakt.


That's how the sections are balanced in real life. Winds are really quiet compared to the rest of the orchestra. It's not an issue, it's part of the design


----------



## pawelmorytko

Ah bit gutted, I was waiting so long and looking forward to the SINE port as I wanted to get the 4 horn ensemble from Berlin Brass, especially with the new fff layer that they recorded, but seeing the price of one patch being almost 1/4 of the whole library while on sale is a bit disheartening... It's a shame they don't also discount the a la carte instruments when there's a sale on, especially since they're already far more expensive to get individually as it is


----------



## OT_Tobias

Rudianos said:


> Have Kontakt Timpani, no crossgrade into Percussion? Any new features? @OrchestralTools


Have patience - crossgrade notices are still going out, we're staggering them. Timpani owners shall not be forgotten!


----------



## Niv Schrieber

Breaker said:


> Wow, free timpani
> Haven't tried SINE since early 2020 but this seems like a perfect occasion to check it out again.
> 
> I have also ignored BSS completely so far but 124€ seems like decent deal.


How come you see 124 euros in the checkout? i purchased all of the main berlin series for sine right now and still see 274 (regular sale price and i dont have a serial number since its for the old kontakt version i guess, and the price is not being updated automatically for me)


----------



## Rudianos

OT_Tobias said:


> Have patience - crossgrade notices are still going out, we're staggering them. Timpani owners shall not be forgotten!


got my finger on the buy button!


----------



## Jett Hitt

Casiquire said:


> That's how the sections are balanced in real life. Winds are really quiet compared to the rest of the orchestra. It's not an issue, it's part of the design


Yeah, I wouldn't know anything about that.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

Niv Schrieber said:


> How come you see 124 euros in the checkout? i purchased all of the main berlin series for sine right now and still see 274 (regular sale price)


I'm confused as well on the BSS price. I own all the mains, and my crossgrade price for BSS is currently $399...


----------



## Niv Schrieber

A.Heppelmann said:


> I'm confused as well on the BSS price. I own all the mains, and my crossgrade price for BSS is currently $399 USD...


Yes i agree, its very confusing. i also dont understand if the crossgrade price from berlin strings main stacks up with the sale price. I saw at least two people here saying that they got BSS for less than 200 euros, so i dont understand how it works really. at 124 euros i would buy that as well in a heartbeat.


----------



## Francisco Lamolda

Robin said:


> Yes, from a first check this seems to be fixed.


Did you trie it? Or did OT said that it's fixed?


----------



## muziksculp

@OrchestralTools ,

Congratulations on the Berlin Series SINE port, and Thank You Very 

I'm finally Celebrating this major event. 

I guess I just have to add my NI version Serial Numbers of these Berlin Series Libraries to get the SINE version licenses added to my SINE account ? Any info on this detail ? 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Robin

Francisco Lamolda said:


> Did you trie it? Or did OT said that it's fixed?


I tried, not yet in a project but the levels of the instruments seem to match much better now.


----------



## Hendrixon

OT_Tobias said:


> Have patience - crossgrade notices are still going out, we're staggering them. Timpani owners shall not be forgotten!


Edit: Tobias, no need to answer, its fixed  

--------------------------------------------------------

Tobias,

I opened SINE, saw the option to install (own all 4 Berlin section), clicking download it prompted me to update SINE, I did... but now I don't see any option for installing it.
I bought the whole collection last year on black friday.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Hendrixon said:


> Tobias,
> 
> I opened SINE, saw the option to install (own all 4 Berlin section), clicking download it prompted me to update SINE, I did... but now I don't see any option for installing it.
> I bought the whole collection last year on black friday.


Just click on details and choose what you want to download.


----------



## Casiquire

Jett Hitt said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't know anything about that.


I don't mean to imply anything. It's a stark departure from the norm in samples. Sorry my wording could be seen as condescending, i definitely didn't mean it that way 😊


----------



## Pablocrespo

So, I was planning on completing my junkieXL brass with solo trombone and section and solo horn and tuba.

Now Berlin sounds interesting with the new FFF layer. Which one do you recomend?
Thanks!


----------



## Hendrixon

Jett Hitt said:


> Just click on details and choose what you want to download.


Thanks!


----------



## Frederick

Niv Schrieber said:


> Yes i agree, its very confusing. i also dont understand if the crossgrade price from berlin strings main stacks up with the sale price. I saw at least two people here saying that they got BSS for less than 200 euros, so i dont understand how it works really. at 124 euros i would buy that as well in a heartbeat.


For anyone that does have the Kontakt version of Berlin Strings it will just subtract 150 Euro of the sale price after entering the serial number.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Casiquire said:


> I don't mean to imply anything. It's a stark departure from the norm in samples. Sorry my wording could be seen as condescending, i definitely didn't mean it that way 😊


Thanks.

When I can't hear a piccolo, we've got a problem. The same problem exists in the StaffPad version of BWW. I had a constant struggle with woodwind volume in Kontakt, and I have noted many other people making the same observation. Oftentimes people's solution was to just use the Legacy patches, but that always seemed like a compromise to me.

I'll know soon enough. I just have to make myself hold out for a BF deal on an SSD.


----------



## dzilizzi

Hmm. Requires new Sine player. New Sine player does not work in Windows 7. This is going to suck. I hate upgrading. The last time I reloaded Windows on this computer, it over-wrote the wrong drive. I foresee spending my entire Thanksgiving holiday backing everything up. Or figuring out where it is backed up. Sigh. 

Or just continue with the Kontakt versions......


----------



## Hendrixon

Frederick said:


> For anyone that does have the Kontakt version of Berlin Strings it will just subtract 150 Euro of the sale price after entering the serial number.


BOUGHT!!!


----------



## dzilizzi

Niv Schrieber said:


> How come you see 124 euros in the checkout? i purchased all of the main berlin series for sine right now and still see 274 (regular sale price and i dont have a serial number since its for the old kontakt version i guess, and the price is not being updated automatically for me)


If it is in Native Access, you can get the Serial number by clicking on the product. A side window pops open with the info.


----------



## Go To 11

Hendrixon said:


> BOUGHT!!!


So the discount is only for Kontakt owners of Berlin Strings?


----------



## Niv Schrieber

dzilizzi said:


> If it is in Native Access, you can get the Serial number by clicking on the product. A side window pops open with the info.


I dont own it on kontakt. I just bought the sine versions, so no serial for me. can someone please clarify if the BSS discount is for the kontakt owners of berlin strings only?


----------



## easyrider

dzilizzi said:


> Hmm. Requires new Sine player. New Sine player does not work in Windows 7. This is going to suck. I hate upgrading. The last time I reloaded Windows on this computer, it over-wrote the wrong drive. I foresee spending my entire Thanksgiving holiday backing everything up. Or figuring out where it is backed up. Sigh.
> 
> Or just continue with the Kontakt versions......


Windows doesn’t overwrite the wrong drive the user has complete control were the installation is going to be located.


----------



## Zanshin

Any user comments on the brass with extended dynamics?


----------



## jadedsean

I have woods legacy and wondered how to upgrade, also have there Berlin Perc and Timpani and Expansion A for the woodwinds. Berlin Perc shows up, expansion A does not, even with the correct seriel number. Anyone in the same boat? Is there an extra upgrade if you already own some of the collections?


----------



## OT_Tobias

Niv Schrieber said:


> I dont own it on kontakt. I just bought the sine versions, so no serial for me. can someone please clarify if the BSS discount is for the kontakt owners of berlin strings only?


Yes, the discount referred to here is the Loyalty discount for existing owners of BST when BSS was released. It does not apply to any licenses of BST purchased after the release of BSS.

There is indeed a crossgrade from BST to BSS (399€), but it does not stack with the BF sale. There is currently an issue in the system where BST owners are shown that 399€ crossgrade price instead of the BF sale price.
We're on that!


----------



## Sunny Schramm

Niv Schrieber said:


> I dont own it on kontakt. I just bought the sine versions, so no serial for me. can someone please clarify if the BSS discount is for the kontakt owners of berlin strings only?


Seems so - I just bought the BSS Sine Version: no discount on BS - its still 420€.


----------



## OT_Tobias

Sunny Schramm said:


> Seems so - I just bought the BSS Sine Version: no discount on BS - its still 420€.


That's not how it works - the discount is the other way around. If you get BST, you get a crossgrade on BSS. But as I wrote in my post before, that does not make sense during the BF sale, as the BF price is lower than the crossgrade anyway.


----------



## Go To 11

OT_Tobias said:


> Yes, the discount referred to here is the Loyalty discount for existing owners of BST when BSS was released. It does not apply to any licenses of BST purchased after the release of BSS.
> 
> There is indeed a crossgrade from BST to BSS (399€), but it does not stack with the BF sale. There is currently an issue in the system where BST owners are shown that 399€ crossgrade price instead of the BF sale price.
> We're on that!


Thank you for clarifying. That seems fair to me! Could you confirm if the Horns dynamics are now consistently mapped, meaning that MIDI from one instrument would copy and paste onto another perfectly? Thanks.


----------



## Hendrixon

dzilizzi said:


> Hmm. Requires new Sine player. New Sine player does not work in Windows 7. This is going to suck. I hate upgrading. The last time I reloaded Windows on this computer, it over-wrote the wrong drive. I foresee spending my entire Thanksgiving holiday backing everything up. Or figuring out where it is backed up. Sigh.
> 
> Or just continue with the Kontakt versions......


I had sine on win 7 no problem


----------



## dzilizzi

easyrider said:


> Windows doesn’t overwrite the wrong drive the user has complete control were the installation is going to be located.


Yes and no. When the drives are listed as numbers only and the SATA jacks lining up on the MB are not labeled? At least where you can read them without taking the MB out of the case? And the new drive isn't formatted? Probably doesn't help having multiple drives by the same manufacturer. 

Last time I ended up taking everything out except the new drive and the restore drive. Yes, some user error, but Windows doesn't make it easy if you have a lot of drives in your computer.


----------



## easyrider

dzilizzi said:


> Yes and no. When the drives are listed as numbers only and the SATA jacks lining up on the MB are not labeled? At least where you can read them without taking the MB out of the case? And the new drive isn't formatted? Probably doesn't help having multiple drives by the same manufacturer.
> 
> Last time I ended up taking everything out except the new drive and the restore drive. Yes, some user error, but Windows doesn't make it easy if you have a lot of drives in your computer.


System drive should always be connected to the Sata Port 0 on motherboard.

Data drives to Sata ports 1,2,3,4 etc…


----------



## Marsen

Oh this email just arrived. Nice!

_Because you own all four Berlin Series main collections, *you also qualify for a special download of Berlin Orchestra*—our recent collaboration with Berklee. Be sure to enter all your serial numbers, and Berlin Orchestra will be assigned to your account automatically from December 6._


----------



## Go To 11

Marsen said:


> Oh this email just arrived. Nice!
> 
> _Because you own all four Berlin Series main collections, *you also qualify for a special download of Berlin Orchestra*—our recent collaboration with Berklee. Be sure to enter all your serial numbers, and Berlin Orchestra will be assigned to your account automatically from December 6._


Ooh nice! Did you just buy BO or did you own the Kontakt versions?


----------



## Marsen

Go To 11 said:


> Ooh nice! Did you just buy BO or did you own the Kontakt versions?


I owned the Kontakt versions from last year.


----------



## Go To 11

Marsen said:


> I owned the Kontakt versions from last year.


Thanks for letting me know. I'm curious if new owners will get Berklee too. Would be a nice laptop setup!


----------



## dzilizzi

easyrider said:


> System drive should always be connected to the Sata Port 0 on motherboard.
> 
> Data drives to Sata ports 1,2,3,4 etc…


LOL! Yes. Please reread the part about unlabeled ports. Currently, it is showing up as Disc #2. It is not the best setup for easy access. But this is off topic. I will see about loading it on my Windows 10 main computer until I can figure it all out.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

OT_Tobias said:


> There is indeed a crossgrade from BST to BSS (399€), but it does not stack with the BF sale. There is currently an issue in the system where BST owners are shown that 399€ crossgrade price instead of the BF sale price.
> We're on that!


I'm now seeing $274 for BSS (as an owner of Berlin Strings) -- is that the correct BF sale price?


----------



## dzilizzi

Hendrixon said:


> I had sine on win 7 no problem


The new player? I get an error when I try to install. The old one works fine.


----------



## easyrider

A.Heppelmann said:


> I'm now seeing $274 for BSS (as an owner of Berlin Strings) -- is that the correct BF sale price?


That’s the price I see and I don’t have Berlin strings. (Yet) 😂


----------



## dzilizzi

I do want to thank @OrchestralTools for giving free Sine versions when I own all the Kontakt versions. And making it easy to add a serial number to get the older ones in. Very easy.


----------



## Go To 11

A.Heppelmann said:


> I'm now seeing $274 for BSS (as an owner of Berlin Strings) -- is that the correct BF sale price?


That's everyone's price. Add it to cart and follow the instructions, if you bought Berlin Strings before BSS launched.


----------



## galactic orange

I


easyrider said:


> That’s the price I see and I don’t have Berlin strings. (Yet) 😂


I think the point is that the loyalty crossgrade price from BS to BSS was only for those who had purchased BS before BSS was released as a sort of thank you. But BSS is still a part of the sale going on now for Berlin libraries. That’s why even those who do not own BS are seeing the same discount, if I am not mistaken.


----------



## galactic orange

Go To 11 said:


> That's everyone's price. Add it to cart and follow the instructions, if you bought Berlin Strings before BSS launched.


Stated much more clearly than I did! Thank you.


----------



## muziksculp

@OrchestralTools ,

I don't see my Berlin Orchestra Licenses in the SINE player. How come some users have them appear automatically when opening SINE ? I guess I have to input the licenses manually from Native Access.

One more question, regarding the Berlin Woodwinds, which license does SINE require ? The Revive edition of the Woodwinds, or the original Berlin Woodwinds ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Robin

Can anyone with Studio One try the repetition patches? I just tried playing the 4 Horns repetitions within S1 and Sine crashed my Studio One. I can reproduce that behavior with every repetition patch.


----------



## dzilizzi

muziksculp said:


> @OrchestralTools ,
> 
> I don't see my Berlin Orchestra Licenses in the SINE player. How come some users have them appear automatically when opening SINE ? I guess I have to input the licenses manually from Native Access.
> 
> One more question, regarding the Berlin Woodwinds, which license does SINE require ? The Revive edition of the Woodwinds, or the original Berlin Woodwinds ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


The ones I purchased last year were in Sine, but I had to manually add my Woodwinds.


----------



## muziksculp

dzilizzi said:


> The ones I purchased last year were in Sine, but I had to manually add my Woodwinds.


None of mine are in Sine, I have the Berlin Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, and Perc. So, I will have to manually add the licenses in SINE.


----------



## mgaewsj

so I just checked with OT support that confirmed that BWW Revive on Sine does NOT include Legacy Collection (as correctly reported by @ZeeCount) and so it "has runs transitions, but NO pre-recorded scale runs".
I guess that this implies that the run builder is also NOT included


----------



## Baronvonheadless

So quick question. Anyone have both cinebrass and Berlin brass? If so, what makes Berlin brass twice the price? Is it worth it? 

I have junkie xl (not the full library but select choices) and love it, and cinebrass Sonora but really love the sound of cinebrass and Berlin brass and although I don’t like the sound that much of bbc pro’s brass I do love the multi tongue and extra articulations, which junkie xl is missing.


----------



## easyrider

Baronvonheadless said:


> So quick question. Anyone have both cinebrass and Berlin brass? If so, what makes Berlin brass twice the price? Is it worth it?
> 
> I have junkie xl (not the full library but select choices) and love it, and cinebrass Sonora but really love the sound of cinebrass and Berlin brass and although I don’t like the sound that much of bbc pro’s brass I do love the multi tongue and extra articulations, which junkie xl is missing.


I’d like to know this about Berlin Percussion too….I already have Cineperc….


----------



## lettucehat

easyrider said:


> I’d like to know this about Berlin Percussion too….I already have Cineperc….



The lack of timpani was one of the big excuses I had for not getting it. That and there was no big bundle for all of them. Uhhh...


----------



## Jdiggity1

Just a reminder that this is a commercial announcements thread, so please try to refrain from discussing other libraries/developers


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Jdiggity1 said:


> Just a reminder that this is a commercial announcements thread, so please try to refrain from discussing other libraries/developers


Sorry!


----------



## Drumdude2112

easyrider said:


> I’d like to know this about Berlin Percussion too….I already have Cineperc….


Me as well….wrestling a bit with the ‘do i NEED’ berlin perc lol (i have the other 4 berlin series)


----------



## musicalweather

I own the Kontakt version of all four of the Berlin Main libraries, as well as Timpani. I don't yet see the SINE versions under the "My Licenses" tab on SINE. However, there is clickable text that says "Activate collection for SINE." Would clicking on it bring in the SINE collections of Berlin Main? Just want to make sure.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Here is a little technical test made with Horn 1 from Berlin Brass, using the Soft Sustain, Slurred Legato, moving CC1 from 0 to 127. Spot 1 + Tree !

1) Kontakt Version
2) SINE Version, with new ff layer deactivated
3) SINE Version, with new ff layer activated


----------



## jadedsean

musicalweather said:


> I own the Kontakt version of all four of the Berlin Main libraries, as well as Timpani. I don't yet see the SINE versions under the "My Licenses" tab on SINE. However, there is clickable text that says "Activate collection for SINE." Would clicking on it bring in the SINE collections of Berlin Main? Just want to make sure.


When you click on this you should add the libraies you want to download and then put in you seriel number that you have for each library.


----------



## musicalweather

jadedsean said:


> When you click on this you should add the libraies you want to download and then put in you seriel number that you have for each library.


Thank you!


----------



## lettucehat

Wow just checking now how they broke down the instruments for a la carte (while I consider whether to get the full products or not) and I really like it. I had some ideas about how they shouldn't just do "Violins I", "Violins II" etc and break out the main articulations from the special ones, and they nailed it pretty much.


----------



## dzilizzi

easyrider said:


> I’d like to know this about Berlin Percussion too….I already have Cineperc….


Soundwise, Berlin and Cineperc are very close. Last year, it was the last thing I bought because I had Cineperc. There are no Timpanis in the Kontakt version, which is annoying. But, the Sine version comes with timpanis - Yay!

It has been a while, but from what I remember, it was the sound of the big drums that sold me on Berlin Perc. And I want to say Berlin had larger sized cymbals and drums, but don't quote me on it. I compared the walkthrough of Berlin to the actual Cineperc and that is what made the decision for me.


----------



## ism

Deeply intrigued about the "dynamic" patches. 

Thought the demos are only per section and not per patch.


----------



## Marsen

Robin said:


> Can anyone with Studio One try the repetition patches? I just tried playing the 4 Horns repetitions within S1 and Sine crashed my Studio One. I can reproduce that behavior with every repetition patch.


----------



## G_Erland

Paul Jelfs said:


> Hmm I have Berlin Brass, but it wont show up in SINE - And when i try and activate it with serial it says Too many tries after trying it.
> 
> It works fine in Kontakt, so am not sure why it wont add to SINE ?


Ive had to go via the website before..


----------



## muziksculp

@OrchestralTools ,

Will you be posting Video Walkthroughs of the Berlin Orchestra in SINE ?

Thanks.


----------



## DJiLAND

Finally! Is there something improved? Legato improved over Kontakt or Better sound balance? I was able to go to Sine with a Kontakt license


----------



## lettucehat

DJiLAND said:


> Is there something improved? Legato improved over Kontakt or Better sound balance?


Looking forward to hearing reviews. Having just learned how well the Pixelpoet trick works on Berlin Strings, this is pretty crucial. So far I've preferred working in Kontakt versions when there is a choice.


----------



## easyrider

Why do we have to pay VAT?


----------



## Robin

I was just talking with a few colleagues about the new Sine versions and comparing the legatos.

Here's a a file with parameters as identical as possible. Horn 1, Tree. First Kontakt, second Sine.

I'm sorry to say but the sine legato sounds considerably inferior to me.


----------



## easyrider

Robin said:


> I was just talking with a few colleagues about the new Sine versions and comparing the legatos.
> 
> Here's a a file with parameters as identical as possible. Horn 1, Tree. First Kontakt, second Sine.
> 
> I'm sorry to say but the sine legato sounds considerably inferior to me.


Me too…


----------



## Go To 11

lettucehat said:


> Looking forward to hearing reviews. Having just learned how well the Pixelpoet trick works on Berlin Strings, this is pretty crucial. So far I've preferred working in Kontakt versions when there is a choice.


What is this trick please?


----------



## Go To 11

Robin said:


> I was just talking with a few colleagues about the new Sine versions and comparing the legatos.
> 
> Here's a a file with parameters as identical as possible. Horn 1, Tree. First Kontakt, second Sine.
> 
> I'm sorry to say but the sine legato sounds considerably inferior to me.


That is not good! It sounds the same in this person's demo above... Any ideas why? https://vi-control.net/community/th...berlin-series-on-sine-now.117239/post-4970081


----------



## lettucehat

Seems like a good time to ask this question, which is generally low priority... are Sine owners able to get the Kontakt versions? I remember people saying you could do this! Obviously going backwards from Sine without a fee would be a workaround for the Kontakt->Sine upgrade fees that OT wouldn't overlook, but having said all that, I do recall going backwards was possible. Those Kontakt instruments just look so good, and if there's any difference in quality it would be great to have Kontakt until Sine is truly at the same level performance wise.


----------



## lettucehat

Go To 11 said:


> What is this trick please?


There's a thread in Sample Talk about how you can tweak things in Kontakt to get (sometimes) smoother legato transitions by messing with sample start times. Works nicely on Berlin strings as far as I have heard.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Robin said:


> I was just talking with a few colleagues about the new Sine versions and comparing the legatos.
> 
> Here's a a file with parameters as identical as possible. Horn 1, Tree. First Kontakt, second Sine.
> 
> I'm sorry to say but the sine legato sounds considerably inferior to me.


Unfortunately, I can only agree. Big disappointment so far. Legato in Kontakt feels much smoother.



Go To 11 said:


> That is not good! It sounds the same in this person's demo above... Any ideas why? https://vi-control.net/community/th...berlin-series-on-sine-now.117239/post-4970081


That was my first test and I agree this one was okay, though definitely not identical ! But made some other tests after that and some of the comparisons were dreadful.


----------



## lettucehat

And the full bundle is Sine only, looks like..


----------



## jadedsean

Did i read that Berlin Perc comes with Timpani now?


----------



## Evans

dzilizzi said:


> Soundwise, Berlin and Cineperc are very close


I'll add a slightly differing opinion: I find that CinePerc often jumps from "in your face" (in a good way) to "hella ambient," whereas it's easier - for me, at least - to dial in a happy medium with what I'm learning of Berlin Percussion today.


----------



## Pianist

lettucehat said:


> Seems like a good time to ask this question, which is generally low priority... are Sine owners able to get the Kontakt versions? I remember people saying you could do this! Obviously going backwards from Sine without a fee would be a workaround for the Kontakt->Sine upgrade fees that OT wouldn't overlook, but having said all that, I do recall going backwards was possible. Those Kontakt instruments just look so good, and if there's any difference in quality it would be great to have Kontakt until Sine is truly at the same level performance wise.


I have just went through OT's Q&A and it states:
*>>*​Can I switch from the SINEplayer version to the Kontakt version?​No, your SINEplayer License can not be crossgraded to Kontakt. If you have bought the SINEplayer version, you can not purchase a Kontakt version anymore.
<<

However, you can still buy the Kontakt version of the Libraries. But if bought after yesterday you will have to pay 10% of the full retail price if you want to update to SINE later.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Why would the legatos be any different in Kontakt vs Sine if it's the same library?


----------



## Go To 11

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Unfortunately, I can only agree. Big disappointment so far. Legato in Kontakt feels much smoother.
> 
> 
> That was my first test and I agree this one was okay, though definitely not identical ! But made some other tests after that and some of the comparisons were dreadful.


Damn. I would love to hear any of your other tests. And thanks for your honesty.


----------



## Casiquire

Pianist said:


> I have just went through OT's Q&A and it states:
> *>>*​Can I switch from the SINEplayer version to the Kontakt version?​No, your SINEplayer License can not be crossgraded to Kontakt. If you have bought the SINEplayer version, you can not purchase a Kontakt version anymore.
> <<
> 
> However, you can still buy the Kontakt version of the Libraries. But if bought after yesterday you will have to pay 10% of the full retail price if you want to update to SINE later.


I'd still try to reach out to them if someone wants to go back to kontakt


----------



## lettucehat

Baronvonheadless said:


> Why would the legatos be any different in Kontakt vs Sine if it's the same library?


Beats me but it's pretty audible. I mean, there are differences between the dedicated legato patches and the legato in the multis in the Kontakt versions alone. No idea why.


----------



## oooooooooooooooooh

Hmmm, as a big fan of Berlin Strings and Woodwinds (thanks for the SINE licenses, by the way!), I'm very intrigued to jump on board with Berlin Brass as well...though to be honest, I feel like I should get the Kontakt version and then upgrade? I've had issues with SINE crashing on me that I just don't have with Berlin--also, I too have the legato issue that people are mentioning above. I feel like I should hedge my bets a bit, though I don't really want to spend the extra money.


----------



## Casiquire

Baronvonheadless said:


> Why would the legatos be any different in Kontakt vs Sine if it's the same library?


Because programming is at least as important as the recordings themselves


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Robin said:


> I was just talking with a few colleagues about the new Sine versions and comparing the legatos.
> 
> Here's a a file with parameters as identical as possible. Horn 1, Tree. First Kontakt, second Sine.
> 
> I'm sorry to say but the sine legato sounds considerably inferior to me.


Yeh there is definitely something different going on. With other SINE releases, they have moved around Slurred / Retongued legato, and it triggers on different patches rather than on just one - Could , that possibly be the reason for why the second one sounds like they are drunk and nowhere near as good a player ? Or is the legato Volume turned up , or something ?!


----------



## Robin

Paul Jelfs said:


> Yeh there is definitely something different going on. With other SINE releases, they have moved around Slurred / Retongued legato, and it triggers on different patches rather than on just one - Could , that possibly be the reason for why the second one sounds like they are drunk and nowhere near as good a player ? Or is the legato Volume turned up , or something ?!


Nope, nothing changed, legato transitions at +/-0dB , both triggering the "slurred legato". Both statically the former top dynamic layer (called forte now).


----------



## Evans

Berlin Brass Kontakt Trumpet 1 Legato (Tree)
Berlin Brass SINE Trumpet 1 Legato (Tree)
BONUS! OT's own Tom Holkenborg/JXL Brass SINE Trumpet Legato (Tree)
BONUS 2! Tom Holkenborg/JXL Brass SINE Trumpet Legato (Tree, but with the FFF layer turned off in the Dynamics tab in SINE)
Exact same MIDI data. Simple, mechanical test I run up the keyboard with.


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Robin said:


> Nope, nothing changed, legato transitions at +/-0dB , both triggering the "slurred legato". Both statically the former top dynamic layer (called forte now).


Oh no that is not a good sign : ( DO you have Berlin Orchestra to Compare it with the programming in that one ?


----------



## artinro

Forgive me for saying it, but I think OTs legatos in general haven't been as great in Sine libraries (whether ports of older kontakt libraries or new libraries only in Sine). I'm not sure why this is, but I've definitely noticed it. Maybe the player just doesn't handle legato scripting as well as Kontakt, for whatever reason. Aside from the very nice additional dynamic layer in brass, I see no reason to switch to Sine for any of these libraries at this time since I already have them all in Kontakt.


----------



## Robin

Evans said:


> Berlin Brass Kontakt Trumpet 1 Legato (Tree)
> Berlin Brass SINE Trumpet 1 Legato (Tree)
> TH Brass SINE Trumpet Legato (Tree)
> TH Brass SINE Trumpet Legato (Tree, FFF layer turned off)
> Exact same MIDI data.


That is disappointing as well.


----------



## stevebarden

Quick play around with Berlin strings. Octave Scale Runs for Violins 1 seems new. I can't recall or find them in the Kontakt version. The "doubles" patch works but "triplets" doesn't (both vln 1 and vln 2).


----------



## Casiquire

artinro said:


> Forgive me for saying it, but I think OTs legatos in general haven't been as great in Sine libraries (whether ports of older kontakt libraries or new libraries only in Sine). I'm not sure why this is, but I've definitely noticed it. Maybe the player just doesn't handle legato scripting as well as Kontakt, for whatever reason. Aside from the very nice additional dynamic layer in brass, I see no reason to switch to Sine for any of these libraries at this time since I already have them all in Kontakt.


You're not the only one. My experience with Special Bows was a big factor in not getting the SINE version of the full strings


----------



## oooooooooooooooooh

Seeing everyone complain about SINE legatos has been incredibly validating for me as a person who has been struggling with them for a while, not gonna lie.


----------



## artinro

Casiquire said:


> You're not the only one. My experience with Special Bows was a big factor in not getting the SINE version of the full strings


And, interestingly, my reason for not updating any of my older Kontakt libraries to their Sine counterparts has been based on being (overall) not thrilled with legatos in Sine only libraries (JXL, for example, has markedly worse legato than Berlin Brass). I just feel their legato patches used to be much better in the Kontakt only days. I know they work very hard on updates, though, so I'm sure they'll get it sorted out eventually. I'll keep with K in the meantime.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

This has inspired me for a quick noodle, how does this sound to you all?

Solo Horn, Tree Mic, Un-named library. 
View attachment Horn Legato Test .mp3


----------



## dhmusic

mgaewsj said:


> so I just checked with OT support that confirmed that BWW Revive on Sine does NOT include Legacy Collection (as correctly reported by @ZeeCount) and so it "has runs transitions, but NO pre-recorded scale runs".
> I guess that this implies that the run builder is also NOT included


definitely


----------



## Michael Antrum

easyrider said:


> Why do we have to pay VAT?


----------



## Hendrixon

I just compared the Horns Ensemble Legato, its superior in SINE in every aspect.
First off all in kontakt its sluggish and the tails collide and smear... sine has NONE of that.
Kontakt has 3 layers p-mf-ff and SINE p-mf-f-ff. the kontakt ff sound more like f though it has a bit more full body sound that suit orchestral horns. in SINE the ff sounds like ff, the whole dynamic range is smooth. the attack is a bit better so its a bit more agile.. not Jasper agile lol

OT weren't kidding about recording "another layer"!
The sustain in kontakt again same 3 layers, in SINE 4 layers which go to real ff.
And on top of that there is another patch called Sustain Bold... which is a single FFF layer if you must want to do epic with OT


----------



## Evans

Hendrixon said:


> First off all in kontakt its sluggish and the tails collide and smear... sine has NONE of that.


You're absolutely correct on this. Massive difference in those tails. The ones in Kontakt sound... well, like Tundra. Pretty intense.


----------



## Casiquire

Hendrixon said:


> I just compared the Horns Ensemble Legato, its superior in SINE in every aspect.
> First off all in kontakt its sluggish and the tails collide and smear... sine has NONE of that.
> Kontakt has 3 layers p-mf-ff and SINE p-mf-f-ff. the kontakt ff sound more like f though it has a bit more full body sound that suit orchestral horns. in SINE the ff sounds like ff, the whole dynamic range is smooth. the attack is a bit better so its a bit more agile.. not Jasper agile lol
> 
> OT weren't kidding about recording "another layer"!
> The sustain in kontakt again same 3 layers, in SINE 4 layers which go to real ff.
> And on top of that there is another patch called Sustain Bold... which is a single FFF layer if you must want to do epic with OT


It's nice to hear that not every instrument has suffered in the transition. To my ears, the SINE ones are virtually bug-free and bump-free so it's not all bad, but it sounds like the transition is totally smeared by the tail of the previous note so it's not as crisp and lively, just an understated blur.


----------



## dhmusic

Hendrixon said:


> the attack is a bit better so its a bit more agile.. not Jasper agile lol


Which brass library?


----------



## Hendrixon

Evans said:


> Berlin Brass Kontakt Trumpet 1 Legato (Tree)
> Berlin Brass SINE Trumpet 1 Legato (Tree)
> TH Brass SINE Trumpet Legato (Tree)
> TH Brass SINE Trumpet Legato (Tree, FFF layer turned off)
> Exact same MIDI data. Simple, mechanical test I run up the keyboard with.


What is TH Brass SINE Trumpet Legato (Tree, FFF layer turned off)?
Where do you see an FFF layer?


----------



## Evans

Hendrixon said:


> What is TH Brass SINE Trumpet Legato (Tree, FFF layer turned off)?
> Where do you see an FFF layer?


Sorry, I used a dumb initialism there. Tom Holkenborg's (JXL) Brass. I'm trying to be a good customer and follow the naming change.

I just flipped off the FFF layer in the Dynamics tab in the lower-right of SINE.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Everyone is just posting from Berlin Brass. But what about Strings and Woodwinds? Do they have the same legato problems? If not, maybe they ran out of time and released Brass prematurely so that they could offer the Black Friday deal. I haven't downloaded it yet, but based on what I am hearing, I can't imagine that OT is going to let its flagship brass remain in this condition.


----------



## Hendrixon

dhmusic said:


> Which brass library?


Where talking about Berlin Brass


----------



## Bollen

@OrchestralTools so no BF sale on the strings FX then?


----------



## Casiquire

Jett Hitt said:


> Everyone is just posting from Berlin Brass. But what about Strings and Woodwinds? Do they have the same legato problems? If not, maybe they ran out of time and released Brass prematurely so that they could offer the Black Friday deal. I haven't downloaded it yet, but based on what I am hearing, I can't imagine that OT is going to let its flagship brass remain in this condition.


All I've played with so far are the winds and strings, and at least in the flutes, Kontakt+Pixelpoet was way better


----------



## Hendrixon

Evans said:


> Tom Holkenborg's (JXL) Brass. I'm trying to be a good customer and follow the naming change.
> 
> I just flipped off the FFF layer in the Dynamics tab in the lower-right of SINE.


Ahhhh and I'm going thru the patches like crazy not sure what I'm missing  
I thought maybe TH was Tree+Hall or something, but how can that add an FFF layer lol


----------



## Evans

Hendrixon said:


> Ahhhh and I'm going thru the patches like crazy not sure what I'm missing
> I thought maybe TH was Tree+Hall or something, but how can that add an FFF layer lol


Yep, I might as well have been confusing on purpose. I've edited my original post!


----------



## lettucehat

Well there was that confusing post about Berlin main libraries hitting an unexpected delay, which had us all assuming they wouldn't hit the Black Friday target. Then they just appeared, complete.. so maybe there is something to the theory that they are works in progress.

Edit: also, hats off to the sales people deciding price points, the bundle is like 30 euro more expensive than getting Winds/Strings/Brass. You probably got me there!


----------



## Evans

lettucehat said:


> Edit: also, hats off to the sales people deciding price points, the bundle is like 30 euro more expensive than getting Winds/Strings/Brass. You probably got me there!


Funny enough, I had Kontakt versions of BS, BB, and BWW Revive yet the SINE bundle was cheaper than just hitting up Berlin Percussion's actual page.


----------



## dhmusic

Hendrixon said:


> Where talking about Berlin Brass


Jasper made a more agile Berlin Brass and still called it Berlin Brass?


----------



## Hendrixon

dhmusic said:


> Jasper made a more agile Berlin Brass and still called it Berlin Brass?


Anything Jasper is more agile compared to Berlin brass


----------



## Zhao Shen

BWW owners who didn't upgrade to Revive are a bit screwed - according to this, crossgrading and then switching to SINE would cost 264€, whereas buying BWW right now without having owned it before is 324€. @OrchestralTools Any plans to make that upgrade path more appealing?


----------



## arafaratanran

Baronvonheadless said:


> This has inspired me for a quick noodle, how does this sound to you all?
> 
> Solo Horn, Tree Mic, Un-named library.
> View attachment Horn Legato Test .mp3


That should be the 8dio Century Horn. Still sound good to me!


----------



## lettucehat

Were there so many "blurred" variations in the Kontakt version of Strings?


----------



## Hendrixon

And there are weird things, like the Trumpet Ensemble Sustain Bold, which should be an FFF layer patch, sounds less bold then the FF layer of the Sustains patch  
It also sounds different (like mics positions in the stereo field), thought much more beautiful sound to my ears.
It actually sound like an extra layer for the Sustains Soft, though even there its almost as "bold" as the FF soft layer.


----------



## zwhita

Two questions about Berlin Woodwinds:

Anyone with the Kontakt version of BWW can confirm the total required storage space? Specs tab only shows uncompressed size
Just confirming, but Solo Woodwinds are completely separate from BWW correct? BWW mentions being able to customize ensembles, but I assume Solo Woodwinds is for exposed lyrical passges, where BWW is for everything else.


----------



## Raphioli

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Unfortunately, I can only agree. Big disappointment so far. Legato in Kontakt feels much smoother.


Thanks for your review. I'll just hold off on downloading the SINE version for and continue using the Kontakt version.

BTW, for people who do not own part of/whole Berlin Series, be careful which format you choose to purchase it in.
I think while you can upgrade your Kontakt version to SINE version, but you can't do the opposite afaik.


----------



## Futchibon

pawelmorytko said:


> Ah bit gutted, I was waiting so long and looking forward to the SINE port as I wanted to get the 4 horn ensemble from Berlin Brass, especially with the new fff layer that they recorded, but seeing the price of one patch being almost 1/4 of the whole library while on sale is a bit disheartening... It's a shame they don't also discount the a la carte instruments when there's a sale on, especially since they're already far more expensive to get individually as it is


EDU 40% discount works on ala carte instruments. Maybe look at cheap/free online courses? Downloading Horn Ensemble as we speak, 45 Euros


----------



## Futchibon

Hendrixon said:


> And there are weird things, like the Trumpet Ensemble Sustain Bold, which should be an FFF layer patch, sounds less bold then the FF layer of the Sustains patch
> It also sounds different (like mics positions in the stereo field), thought much more beautiful sound to my ears.
> It actually sound like an extra layer for the Sustains Soft, though even there its almost as "bold" as the FF soft layer.


Downloading the Horn ensemble ala carfte, interested in Trumpet and Bone Ensembles too. HAve you tried the Bones yet?


----------



## dhmusic

Hendrixon said:


> Anything Jasper is more agile compared to Berlin brass



Aww hell nah now I just wanna throw down with you. Angry Brass vs. Berlin Brass, playground, 4pm sharp.

Be there, or be square.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Futchibon said:


> EDU 40% discount works on ala carte instruments. Maybe look at cheap/free online courses? Downloading Horn Ensemble as we speak, 45 Euros


Do you know any good cheap courses? or FREE is better!


----------



## Baronvonheadless

arafaratanran said:


> That should be the 8dio Century Horn. Still sound good to me!


Nope! BTW noticed my mastering bus was way too maxed out, and a bit bass heavy. So here's an edited version to match the timbre of the original a bit better. How does this legato sound to you guys compared to the Berlin horn SINE legato?

Also, if you can't guess its  BBC Pro Solo Horn, Tree Mic
View attachment horn tests legato.mp3


----------



## ka00

Baronvonheadless said:


> Nope! BTW noticed my mastering bus was way too maxed out, and a bit bass heavy. So here's an edited version to match the timbre of the original a bit better. How does this legato sound to you guys compared to the Berlin horn SINE legato?
> 
> Also, if you can't guess its  BBC Pro Solo Horn, Tree Mic
> View attachment horn tests legato.mp3


Wrong thread, bruh.


----------



## dhmusic

Baronvonheadless said:


> Nope! BTW noticed my mastering bus was way too maxed out, and a bit bass heavy. So here's an edited version to match the timbre of the original a bit better. How does this legato sound to you guys compared to the Berlin horn SINE legato?
> 
> Also, if you can't guess its  BBC Pro Solo Horn, Tree Mic
> View attachment horn tests legato.mp3


The legato is too loud I think. Maybe for one transition that would work but on each one it kinda gives itself away. I'm sure it could be tweaked though

It would be the same with Berlin though. You have to tweak each patch to your liking. The defaults are just an approximation.


----------



## Futchibon

Baronvonheadless said:


> Do you know any good cheap courses? or FREE is better!


@Markrs is the authority on this I believe! (My course is definitely not free )


----------



## Marsen

zwhita said:


> Two questions about Berlin Woodwinds:
> 
> Anyone with the Kontakt version of BWW can confirm the total required storage space? Specs tab only shows uncompressed size
> Just confirming, but Solo Woodwinds are completely separate from BWW correct? BWW mentions being able to customize ensembles, but I assume Solo Woodwinds is for exposed lyrical passges, where BWW is for everything else.


1. 
167,88 GB (thats Revive and Legacy, so both libs)
2.
Yes


----------



## Markrs

Baronvonheadless said:


> Do you know any good cheap courses? or FREE is better!


Best options is probably MITA at €35 a month though I haven't used this (they normally have a list of companies they give a discount for, but I couldn't find the page this time as I am on a mobile device)









Music Interval Theory Academy


We teach a transparent and proven methodology that will help you define your unique musical voice and raise above the generic sound of everybody else.




musicintervaltheory.academy





The other option is:





Cinematic Composing Official Site







cinematiccomposing.com





The prices look high but they often offer large reductions via email if you subscribe to thier mailing list.

The final option is to get a sign up for a university course where you get a student card. In some countries this could be low cost.


----------



## Composer 2021

Are the Berlin Brass FFF patches included now?


----------



## Evans

Composer 2021 said:


> Are the Berlin Brass FFF patches included now?


https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/collections/Berlin-brass details here


----------



## hsindermann

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Unfortunately, I can only agree. Big disappointment so far. Legato in Kontakt feels much smoother.


I was a good bit excited about these news, hoping for some improvements done in the libraries. But unfortunately I have to agree here. 

On top of the wonky legatos that I tried, I find the lack of quality control in the Berlin libraries mind blowing for products that are marketed (and usually priced) as top-of-line libraries. I only played around with the woodwinds and strings for less than 10 minutes, and already found these issues:

- Flute 1: For some reason the trills are twice as loud as everything else. Why aren't at least the instruments in themselves balanced (not to mention the balance from instrument to instrument). I know I can dial in the volume for each articulation separately on SINE, but why is a top-of-the-line library not properly balanced out of the box?
- Violins 1 - Espressivo Short. The C and C# 2 octaves above middle C suddenly have a weird spiccato overlay or something? Everything it takes to find that problem is somebody sitting at the keyboard and playing all notes through. Apparently nobody did at least that. 

I was considering completing my Berlin collection with the Brass, but I think I'll pass...


----------



## Raphioli

Composer 2021 said:


> Are the Berlin Brass FFF patches included now?


This line:


> The SINE edition builds on the extensive articulations and dynamic depth of the original collection, adding a triple-forte layer for producing the most forceful passages.


on their official webpage makes it sound like the fff layer is exclusive to the SINE version.
Which is very unfortunate.

By reading some of the posts, it looks like not all patches are bad, so I guess I'll just download the ones that are good. I'll wait for a list of good patches (sorry for being a lazy *** xD )


----------



## jadedsean

Zhao Shen said:


> BWW owners who didn't upgrade to Revive are a bit screwed - according to this, crossgrading and then switching to SINE would cost 264€, whereas buying BWW right now without having owned it before is 324€. @OrchestralTools Any plans to make that upgrade path more appealing?


I am also in the same boat, on top of that they have bundeled the Timpani in with Berlin Perc, so for anyone that had to pay that extra cost was kinda screwed. Its great for people that bought Berlin Perc but not so fair on others who bought the expansion. Its defintley a black Friday downer for me.


----------



## Rudianos

I am def going SINE... OT will resolve all of those legato issues, if there are any. All things that change do require adjustment on the players part - or they will fail. Just waiting for a Timpani crossgrade perk... they say tonight or tommorow.


----------



## servandus

Since I got the Berlin addons libs for Staffpad I've been waiting for the sine version, but the clips uploaded by @Robin and @Evans are disappointing, to say the least.

Here's how the legato transitions sound in Staffpad (using the same Horn 1 and Trumpet 1 tree mics).

I hope OT is willing to address these issues in future updates. I'd really like to add the Berlin Series to my DAW template and have access to all the mics and articulations... but what I've heard so far is not so inviting. Might be a better idea to get the kontakt version instead?


----------



## Niv Schrieber

Anyone else has terrible problems downloading the libraries through sine? Extremely slow download speeds,unpacking problems,certain downloads get stuck and have to be downloaded again, mics randomly disappearing midownload so I have to choose them again and download them separately...don't know what's going on. Never happened to me on this level, and I have downloaded a couple of libraries on sine. I'm on the latest version 1.07. I have to keep watch over the downloads, if not, it looks like it will take me a couple of days till it's all finished. 😨


----------



## hsindermann

Niv Schrieber said:


> Anyone else has terrible problems downloading the libraries through sine? Extremely slow download speeds,unpacking problems,certain downloads get stuck and have to be downloaded again, mics randomly disappearing midownload so I have to choose them again and download them separately...don't know what's going on. Never happened to me on this level, and I have downloaded a couple of libraries on sine. I'm on the latest version 1.07. I have to keep watch over the downloads, if not, it looks like it will take me a couple of days till it's all finished. 😨


Yes, had the same problems downloading the Cello longs & shorts. Basses, Violins 1: No problem. The Cellos did not download although I tried several times. Just gets stuck after the first few percent.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Rudianos said:


> OT will resolve all of those legato issues, if there are any


Oh, there are... I sincerely hope they will be able to fix this. The additional layers look amazing but I'd prefer to forget those and keep the beautiful transitions of the Kontakt version. Which breaks my heart, ahah.


----------



## Niv Schrieber

hsindermann said:


> Yes, had the same problems downloading the Cello longs & shorts. Basses, Violins 1: No problem. The Cellos did not download although I tried several times. Just gets stuck after the first few percent.


I see...quite frustrating. Can't go to sleep with a clear mind that at least a library or two will download over night. That's a shame.


----------



## TintoL

servandus said:


> Since I got the Berlin addons libs for Staffpad I've been waiting for the sine version, but the clips uploaded by @Robin and @Evans are disappointing, to say the least.
> 
> Here's how the legato transitions sound in Staffpad (using the same Horn 1 and Trumpet 1 tree mics).
> 
> I hope OT is willing to address these issues in future updates. I'd really like to add the Berlin Series to my DAW template and have access to all the mics and articulations... but what I've heard so far is not so inviting. Might be a better idea to get the kontakt version instead?


The contrast with Robin's test is noticeable. And is the staffpad version? That sounds much better.


----------



## Alchemedia

TintoL said:


> The contrast with Robin's test is noticeable. And is the staffpad version? That sounds much better.


How exactly does the StaffPad ver differ content wise?


----------



## Vlzmusic

Alchemedia said:


> How exactly does the StaffPad ver differ content wise?


Its super thin in size, but features many basic articulations you need for orchestral work - the difference you hear is because of the offline engine Staffpad uses on Ipad. Everything gets smoothed, and plays nicely, but no realtime midi in etc.


----------



## MaxOctane

I watched all the Berlin Symphonic Strings videos when it first came out, but I'm wondering: can anyone who owns it chime in on what's great about it, and when you reach for it versus Berlin Strings? Is it just better at lush?


----------



## Nimrod7

Niv Schrieber said:


> Anyone else has terrible problems downloading the libraries through sine? Extremely slow download speeds,unpacking problems,certain downloads get stuck and have to be downloaded again, mics randomly disappearing midownload so I have to choose them again and download them separately...don't know what's going on. Never happened to me on this level, and I have downloaded a couple of libraries on sine. I'm on the latest version 1.07. I have to keep watch over the downloads, if not, it looks like it will take me a couple of days till it's all finished. 😨


Yes,

Downloads stuck, I believe it has something to do with concurrent downloads.
I am here for 2 hours, downloading 1 mic position at the time, success is around 80%, otherwise I am restarting the same mic position.

Horrendous experience, and it's not just because many people are downloading. It happened on me on quiet times also, and on versions before 1.07.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

ka00 said:


> Wrong thread, bruh.


Easy, Tiger.


----------



## stevebarden

Nimrod7 said:


> Yes,
> 
> Downloads stuck, I believe it has something to do with concurrent downloads.
> I am here for 2 hours, downloading 1 mic position at the time, success is around 80%, otherwise I am restarting the same mic position.
> 
> Horrendous experience, and it's not just because many people are downloading. It happened on me on quiet times also, and on versions before 1.07.


I had issues where it just sat there. I restarted Sine and tried again. This time it went very quickly.


----------



## Nimrod7

stevebarden said:


> I had issues where it just sat there. I restarted Sine and tried again. This time it went very quickly.


I have over 20-30 restarts up to this point. Some instruments are easier than others it seems.
Most of the trouble is with Symponic Strings.


----------



## lexiaodong

Hendrixon said:


> China is about to invade Taiwan.
> Russia is ready to invade Ukraine.
> VI-C crowd will go militant if fake Berlin 50% off banner was made.
> 
> Yea, nothing wrong with this picture


Berlin is really 50% 
Taiwan is part of China.


----------



## prodigalson

Alchemedia said:


> How exactly does the StaffPad ver differ content wise?


It’s more about how the engine handles the playback than the content. As far as I understand it, because it knows what’s coming, it’s able to apply custom sample delay start times and variable ADSR envelopes on a per note basis.


----------



## Evans

stevebarden said:


> I had issues where it just sat there. I restarted Sine and tried again. This time it went very quickly.


Yes, the old "turn it off and on again" trick worked for me, as well.


----------



## Marsen

Thanks Orchestral Tools for your generous crossgrade-offer for BSS to BS owners.
Just purchased, although it´s Sine only .

And also a big  to David Kudell, who sold me on this one with his wonderful piece here:


----------



## arafaratanran

lexiaodong said:


> Taiwan is part of China.


If you ask the people of Taiwan to vote on that, they tell you they don't want to be part of China.


----------



## dhmusic

gst98 said:


> Listen to the strezov horns, which he programmed and produced many many years ago. No one seem to talk about them but imo remains the best FH legato, with insane dynamic range. The flutes are equally amazing


Cool bring em out it'll be a battle royale


----------



## Francisco Lamolda

Robin said:


> I tried, not yet in a project but the levels of the instruments seem to match much better now.


Cool, thanks!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I entered my Woodwinds Revive serial into SINE to get the crossgrade and it gave me an error. Anybody else run into that?

Those brass legatos are disappointing as the only thing I've really wanted to buy for some time is the updated Berlin Brass.


----------



## Hendrixon

lexiaodong said:


> Berlin is really 50%
> Taiwan is part of China.


Well we could debate what defines a country and nation in general but that's a whole different forum


----------



## Hendrixon

Composer 2021 said:


> Are the Berlin Brass FFF patches included now?


They added FF to all and stand alone FFF in most
All in all they did well with the recordings, I was afraid the FF/FFF they promised will be like in the JXL Cimbassi, totally detached from the previous layer, but no they did well.
Apart in the (at least what I found so far) Trumpets Ensemble, where the stand alone FFF if less FFF'sh then the FF of the legato and sustain patches... though its still very rich, evolving and pretty.


----------



## servandus

TintoL said:


> The contrast with Robin's test is noticeable. And is the staffpad version? That sounds much better.


Yes, it's the Staffpad version. As Vlzmusic explained, Staffpad doesn't suffer from the limitations of realtime playback (in fact, Staffpad plays the full interval recording, so there's no need to edit the transitions and it's bound to sound better). It's actually unfair to compare it with the realtime playback you get in a DAW (no matter what player you use, or how good the look-ahead scripting is)... but I didn't expect so much of a difference.

The Staffpad version is much more limited though (only tree mics, lower audio quality from an opus stream, less articulations, extremely limited cc editing, etc) and it's also not free from editing bugs (mainly timing and dynamic level/crossfading issues) but after hearing the examples posted so far, I'm now pondering whether to get the kontakt or the sine version.


----------



## gedlig

lexiaodong said:


> Taiwan is part of China.


No. 

Edit: unless you mean Republic of China and not PRC


----------



## dhmusic

servandus said:


> Yes, it's the Staffpad version. As Vlzmusic explained, Staffpad doesn't suffer from the limitations of realtime playback (in fact, Staffpad plays the full interval recording, so there's no need to edit the transitions and it's bound to sound better). It's actually unfair to compare it with the realtime playback you get in a DAW (no matter what player you use, or how good the look-ahead scripting is)... but I didn't expect so much of a difference.
> 
> The Staffpad version is much more limited though (only tree mics, lower audio quality from an opus stream, less articulations, extremely limited cc editing, etc) and it's also not free from editing bugs (mainly timing and dynamic level/crossfading issues) but after hearing the examples posted so far, I'm now pondering whether to get the kontakt or the sine version.


If you're even considering stuff on this level, definitely get the kontakt side-grade. Trust me, you will want it if you do any sort of under the hood modifications.


----------



## Zanshin

@Hendrixon sounds like you are mostly happy with the Sine port?

I’m either in with the Sine bundle or out completely. Sine is the future for OT, and I’m not going to buy kontakt versions for temp use. I have other libraries lol.

I see some recent updates to JXL Brass in Sine so I assume they are actively working on library issues, and the same would happen here… but …


----------



## Hendrixon

gst98 said:


> Listen to the strezov horns, which he programmed and produced many many years ago. No one seem to talk about them but imo remains the best FH legato, with insane dynamic range. The flutes are equally amazing


Never heard of those...
Will check them, thanks.


----------



## Nigel Andreola

Hendrixon said:


> I just compared the Horns Ensemble Legato, its superior in SINE in every aspect.
> First off all in kontakt its sluggish and the tails collide and smear... sine has NONE of that.
> Kontakt has 3 layers p-mf-ff and SINE p-mf-f-ff. the kontakt ff sound more like f though it has a bit more full body sound that suit orchestral horns. in SINE the ff sounds like ff, the whole dynamic range is smooth. the attack is a bit better so its a bit more agile.. not Jasper agile lol
> 
> OT weren't kidding about recording "another layer"!
> The sustain in kontakt again same 3 layers, in SINE 4 layers which go to real ff.
> And on top of that there is another patch called Sustain Bold... which is a single FFF layer if you must want to do epic with OT


I own Berlin Strings and Berlin Woodwinds. For Brass, I've been using CSB and Infinite Brass. I'm considering completing my Berlin orchestra so I can make mockups that sound like their in the same space and do less work trying to mix things. I like the warm romantic tone and legato of the Berlin demos but held off buying them because I do like the option to be able to swell from quiet to very loud in a legato patch. Now that Berlin Brass is updated with a loud layer, do you think Berlin Brass can take the place of CSB in my work?


----------



## servandus

dhmusic said:


> If you're even considering stuff on this level, definitely get the kontakt side-grade. Trust me, you will want it if you do any sort of under the hood modifications.


Thanks for the advice. Yes, after wating for the sine version I'll probably end up going the Kontakt route.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Can anyone confirm these two questions?:
1) If I own BB originally, do I get BF + cross grade price on the whole Berlin series?
2) If I do and then complete/buy the bundle, do I qualify for free Berklee orchestra?


----------



## Hendrixon

Futchibon said:


> Downloading the Horn ensemble ala carfte, interested in Trumpet and Bone Ensembles too. HAve you tried the Bones yet?


Bones are beautiful
The added layer is spot on

Btw, In general I'm more a sucker for good recorded sound and will tolerate playability/programming issues. those I can try and fix with programming and DAW tricks... but recorded tone? what is there is there.


----------



## Robin

I couldn't let this rest and just went a for while through the legatos of all the new sine ports comparing them to the kontakt counterparts and unfortunately the legatos on all are sometimes considerably worse than on Kontakt. I'd say the woodwinds are the best of the new versions but still not as good as the Kontakt versions, brass and strings are really problematic. It really sounds like the transitions have been shortened, on some instruments they seem almost non existant. Some dynamic layers are really problematic (the legato forte layer of the 3 Tpts regarding attack/release as well as legato transitions on the tree mic for instance)
This is really frustrating, especially as the original Berlin Brass had some of the most expressive legato. At the current state (plus the time synced playing techniques crashing Studio One) I will remain on the Kontakt version of all of those libraries. Quite a letdown.


----------



## lettucehat

I will definitely wait to see if OT comments on the legato issues. The rule of thumb people generally follow is not to buy libraries based on what you hope they might add later, but this is more complicated as they apparently already had better legatos _before_. And they did a good job with the added fff layer, so I would hope the under the hood tweaking happens at some point.


----------



## lexiaodong

gedlig said:


> No.
> 
> Edit: unless you mean Republic of China and not PRC


PROC is china,ROC is china too.my family lives these two places, let me invade my uncle? no...
OK, let's stop this non controversial issue and go back to the library.


----------



## lettucehat

lexiaodong said:


> PROC is china,ROC is china too.my family lives these two places, let me invade my uncle? no...
> OK, let's stop this non controversial issue and go back to the library.


You literally started it one page ago.


----------



## stevebarden

Robin said:


> I couldn't let this rest and just went a for while through the legatos of all the new sine ports comparing them to the kontakt counterparts and unfortunately the legatos on all are sometimes considerably worse than on Kontakt. I'd say the woodwinds are the best of the new versions but still not as good as the Kontakt versions, brass and strings are really problematic. It really sounds like the transitions have been shortened, on some instruments they seem almost non existant. Some dynamic layers are really problematic (the legato forte layer of the 3 Tpts regarding attack/release as well as legato transitions on the tree mic for instance)
> This is really frustrating, especially as the original Berlin Brass had some of the most expressive legato. At the current state (plus the time synced playing techniques crashing Studio One) I will remain on the Kontakt version of all of those libraries. Quite a letdown.


Never fun when faithful customers end up being beta testers. Shameless money grab to capitalize on BF sales?


----------



## Hendrixon

Zanshin said:


> @Hendrixon sounds like you are mostly happy with the Sine port?
> 
> I’m either in with the Sine bundle or out completely. Sine is the future for OT, and I’m not going to buy kontakt versions for temp use. I have other libraries lol.
> 
> I see some recent updates to JXL Brass in Sine so I assume they are actively working on library issues, and the same would happen here… but …


Lets start with this >>> I hate SINE, well, more like "don't like it".
I'll save my **firing hate** to the spitfire player... that thing is the worst piece of software I own, not just from music but everything (databases, programming IDEs, 3D modeling, video editing). it was optimized MAYBE for Intel core duo cpus  


Regarding Berlin, so far I tried just the Brass, its the part that got the most work (added layers!) and I'm really drawn to brass. all in all, accounting for all aspects, I feel its better then the kontakt version.

If you are one of those that use VIs like ROM players, don't look under the hood, then there is no need for Berlin kontakt, at least not the Brass section. if I was buying it all now, I would get the kontakt libs too for the extra 5% cost cause I do like to go inside things, tweak stuff etc.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

FrozenIcicle said:


> Can anyone confirm these two questions?:
> 1) If I own BB originally, do I get BF + cross grade price on the whole Berlin series?
> 2) If I do and then complete/buy the bundle, do I qualify for free Berklee orchestra?


1) I now see my discount added in sine.
2) Still need answers


----------



## Getsumen

stevebarden said:


> Never fun when faithful customers end up being beta testers. Shameless money grab to capitalize on BF sales?


Probably not actually. Per the OT post apologizing over the delays in SINE ports I presume that they were planned a while ago but took longer than expected. I guess the timing lined up nicely for BF. All assumptions of course. 

That and also the constant pressure from people to release the SINE ports.

From what I hear from the complaints though these all seem like scripting issues rather than recording issues. If that's the case I feel a lot safer since OT can at least fix the scripting down the line.



FrozenIcicle said:


> 1) I now see my discount added in sine.
> 2) Still need answers


From an earlier users post:


Marsen said:


> Oh this email just arrived. Nice!
> 
> _Because you own all four Berlin Series main collections, *you also qualify for a special download of Berlin Orchestra*—our recent collaboration with Berklee. Be sure to enter all your serial numbers, and Berlin Orchestra will be assigned to your account automatically from December 6._


----------



## JF

Was the noise mic position for strings removed?


----------



## Hendrixon

Nigel Andreola said:


> I own Berlin Strings and Berlin Woodwinds. For Brass, I've been using CSB and Infinite Brass. I'm considering completing my Berlin orchestra so I can make mockups that sound like their in the same space and do less work trying to mix things. I like the warm romantic tone and legato of the Berlin demos but held off buying them because I do like the option to be able to swell from quiet to very loud in a legato patch. Now that Berlin Brass is updated with a loud layer, do you think Berlin Brass can take the place of CSB in my work?


CSB has more consistent and better legato, goes higher then BB even with the new layers.
On the other hand BB has the none dispute upper hand in the sound department, its majestic in my view.


----------



## dhmusic

JF said:


> Was the noise mic position for strings removed?


yessir

or maybe it was _merged_? That sure would explain all the SINE crashes eyoooooh!


----------



## Hendrixon

Hope it doesn't clutter the thread, I'll just post things I encounter.

So the BB Bones Ensemble legato, really wonky, yea kontakt one is better.
There is a volume slider for the transition samples, they are set too low to begin with.
adding like 10dB makes them sit better, though they are still wonky for lack of better word.

There is an option to remove the transition samples, it literally turns the patch into a scripted legato.
I did it and it made this patch pretty usable for a mix.


----------



## zwhita

Another noob question:
Do the latest versions of the Kontakt products have keyswitched articulations in one program? My DAW machine is Win7 and I refuse to upgrade it, so SINE is out.


----------



## Getsumen

zwhita said:


> Another noob question:
> Do the latest versions of the Kontakt products have keyswitched articulations in one program? My DAW machine is Win7 and I refuse to upgrade it, so SINE is out.


They're all in capsule so yes-ish

Capsule has an articulation limit of like 12 or so, so you can't fit _every_ articulation onto one patch, but that also wouldn't really make sense.


----------



## Nigel Andreola

Hendrixon said:


> CSB has more consistent and better legato, goes higher then BB even with the new layers.
> On the other hand BB has the none dispute upper hand in the sound department, its majestic in my view.


Thank you! I noticed you can get a bigger, richer sound with CSB when not using the highest dynamic, so I would imagine BB would be even better for that! Legato isn't everything. I noticed that in a lot of classical pieces that feature brass, most of the time the brass are not playing connected notes and when they are, they are layered with strings. Jupiter by Holst for instance.


----------



## zwhita

Having trouble deciding if BWW is worth spending $368 on. Listening to Marc Jovani's video's, it's clear that BWW legato are inferior to CSW by leaps and bounds, but BWW has a great symphonic tone and a more complete articulation set.
All I know is comparing BWW during this sale to Fluffy Woodwinds Solo bundle for $198 that I bought last year at 50% off, the latter is a ripoff and I stand to lose at least that amount by deserting it entirely.

Think I'll come back to this site in about 5 years and see if any of these libraries are actually reasonably priced.


----------



## Hendrixon

Nigel Andreola said:


> Thank you! I noticed you can get a bigger, richer sound with CSB when not using the highest dynamic, so I would imagine BB would be even better for that! Legato isn't everything. I noticed that in a lot of classical pieces that feature brass, most of the time the brass are not playing connected notes and when they are, they are layered with strings. Jupiter by Holst for instance.


True, brass lends it self fine for sustains and shorts and arcs.


----------



## TintoL

Hendrixon said:


> if I was buying it all now, I would get the kontakt libs too for the extra 5% cost cause I do like to go inside things, tweak stuff etc.


Where did you find that information that you can buy also the kontakt version with an extra 5%?

This changes the view a lot for me. As you say here, strong passages tend to mostly work with just sustains. If you keep the older good legatos for when needed. We can still have this OT sound.


----------



## dhmusic

zwhita said:


> Marc Jovani's video's, it's clear that BWW legato are inferior to CSW by leaps and bounds


Dude, _General MIDI _has better legatos than CSW


----------



## Futchibon

Hendrixon said:


> Hope it doesn't clutter the thread, I'll just post things I encounter.
> 
> So the BB Bones Ensemble legato, really wonky, yea kontakt one is better.
> There is a volume slider for the transition samples, they are set too low to begin with.
> adding like 10dB makes them sit better, though they are still wonky for lack of better word.
> 
> There is an option to remove the transition samples, it literally turns the patch into a scripted legato.
> I did it and it made this patch pretty usable for a mix.


Appreciate the feedback. Might wait to see if they fix it soon.


----------



## easyrider

Keep posting the audio examples…it’s curbing my GAS….👍


----------



## Hendrixon

TintoL said:


> Where did you find that information that you can buy also the kontakt version with an extra 5%?
> 
> This changes the view a lot for me. As you say here, strong passages tend to mostly work with just sustains. If you keep the older good legatos for when needed. We can still have this OT sound.


https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/381-sine-crossgrades-faq

First section


----------



## TintoL

Hendrixon said:


> https://orchestraltools.helpscoutdocs.com/article/381-sine-crossgrades-faq
> 
> First section


I see, thanks for sharing. 

So, you buy the kontakt version and then pay 10% and you get both. Equals 40% discount.


----------



## lettucehat

TintoL said:


> I see, thanks for sharing.
> 
> So, you buy the kontakt version and then pay 10% and you get both. Equals 40% discount.


But I think the big savings of getting all four is out the window if you get Kontakt versions. For those looking at that, might be useful to factor in.


----------



## TintoL

lettucehat said:


> But I think the big savings of getting all four is out the window if you get Kontakt versions. For those looking at that, might be useful to factor in.


That is totally true. In my case I will be interested only in brass. In that case it slightly works...?

Still debating that.

If you want all of them, then, yes, it's a huge factor.


----------



## lettucehat

TintoL said:


> That is totally true. In my case I will be interested only in brass. In that case it slightly works...?
> 
> Still debating that.
> 
> If you want all of them, then, yes, it's a huge factor.


The 10% is worth it if you're only looking at one or two (like to complete the set) and you need to get going now! I would do it if I were sure I only wanted one.


----------



## Hendrixon

TintoL said:


> I see, thanks for sharing.
> 
> So, you buy the kontakt version and then pay 10% and you get both. Equals 40% discount.


Tobias said that during black Friday this part is also 50% off, meaning %5.
Check with support.


----------



## TintoL

Hendrixon said:


> Tobias said that during black Friday this part is also 50% off, meaning %5.
> Check with support.


ohhhh, riiight, that's great to know... thanks a lot. !!!!!


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

So, just when users are figuring out how to improve legato including Berlins, the actual sampling experts found a way to degrade it - nice :D
I'm going crazy


----------



## FrozenIcicle

@OrchestralTools are arks going on sale afterwards? Much rather spend my money on them


----------



## Hendrixon

So I was interested in the port of Berlin to SINE because of the Brass extra layers.
What do the other sections got in the port to SINE other then a different platform?
I'll need another Nvme to host those too...


----------



## Laptoprabbit

Hendrixon said:


> Hope it doesn't clutter the thread, I'll just post things I encounter.
> 
> So the BB Bones Ensemble legato, really wonky, yea kontakt one is better.
> There is a volume slider for the transition samples, they are set too low to begin with.
> adding like 10dB makes them sit better, though they are still wonky for lack of better word.
> 
> There is an option to remove the transition samples, it literally turns the patch into a scripted legato.
> I did it and it made this patch pretty usable for a mix.


Having to turn to scripted legato for an ostensibly 800 euro library not a good look...


----------



## TintoL

Laptoprabbit said:


> Having to turn to scripted legato for an ostensibly 800 euro library not a good look...


I was about to write something similar. Switching to scripted legato. Or editing the kontakt patch in every patch and adjust the thing yourself is just hard to accept judging by the price. And, if I understand correctly, this "editing" option is not available in sine.


----------



## David Cuny

Looks like none of the SINE single instruments are on sale (Berlin Woodwinds, _etc.)_.

That just means I can spend my BF money elsewhere, as I can buy something _not_ on sale any time of the year.


----------



## Scalms

*Can someone compare Berlin Percussion SINE vs Kontakt side by side?*

Is percussion legato more sloppy in SINE now? 

Seriously though, is the percussion a safe bet in SINE (tone, dynamics, feel same as in Kontakt, etc...?

My experience with SINE has been subpar, so I'm a little hesistant to not try for the Kontakt version.


----------



## bfreepro

Update- my Kontakt licenses were transferred to a SINE account with an old email I no longer used, and OT Support were responsive and quickly transferred all the licenses to the correct account.


A̶n̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶e̶l̶s̶e̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶r̶e̶d̶e̶e̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶K̶o̶n̶t̶a̶k̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶r̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶n̶u̶m̶b̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶a̶t̶e̶/̶u̶p̶g̶r̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶S̶I̶N̶E̶ ̶v̶e̶r̶s̶i̶o̶n̶?̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶W̶W̶,̶ ̶S̶t̶r̶i̶n̶g̶s̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶P̶e̶r̶c̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶g̶l̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶s̶e̶r̶i̶a̶l̶ ̶n̶u̶m̶b̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶v̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶d̶u̶c̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶S̶I̶N̶E̶.̶


----------



## tim727

I love OT but honestly some of those SINE Berlin Brass legato issues that people posted were horrific.


----------



## OT_Tobias

Hendrixon said:


> Tobias said that during black Friday this part is also 50% off, meaning %5.
> Check with support.


Where did I say that?
Crossgrades are always 10% retail price and do not figure in sales or other discounts.


----------



## dhmusic

tim727 said:


> I love OT but honestly some of those SINE Berlin Brass demos that people posted feature some of the worst legato I've ever heard.


Those were bugs they came across, not demos. Kinda different things


----------



## AEF

The irony is SINE was supposed to feature a fancy way of making sure the legatos were just right. The legatos of Berklee Berlin orchestra are wretched as well. Special bows are worse in SINE. BSS violins are still unusable for legatos. 

Its a dog of a piece of software, and Im glad to not be using it anymore.


----------



## dhmusic

AEF said:


> The irony is SINE was supposed to feature a fancy way of making sure the legatos were just right


Would you say it's like meeting the man of your dreams - and then meeting his beautiful wife?


----------



## tim727

dhmusic said:


> Those were bugs they came across, not demos. Kinda different things


Fair point. I wasn't intending to be misleading in my initial comment and have updated it to be more accurate.


----------



## muziksculp

For those who are unsatisfied with the Legatos in SINE, have you contacted Orchestral Tools to provide them your feedback/dissatisfaction with the Legato quality ?


----------



## Rudianos

it would take someone on here about 20 minutes to draw up an actual comparison between the two. Demo. lots of complaining not enough action. who would be interested in putting side by side demos up? my only experience of the Berlin series is the celli section of the symphonic strings and I think they're fantastic


----------



## muziksculp

I personally take all these negative SINE comments with a big grain of Salt.

LOL.. Maybe NI is behind all this.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Rudianos said:


> it would take someone on here about 20 minutes to draw up an actual comparison between the two. Demo. lots of complaining not enough action. who would be interested in putting side by side demos up? my only experience of the Berlin series is the celli section of the symphonic strings and I think they're fantastic


Why would you say that? There have been comparisons!


----------



## easyrider

Rudianos said:


> it would take someone on here about 20 minutes to draw up an actual comparison between the two. Demo. lots of complaining not enough action. who would be interested in putting side by side demos up? my only experience of the Berlin series is the celli section of the symphonic strings and I think they're fantastic


Maybe cause it’s the crashing of the downloads and slow speeds from the servers that are delaying more examples ? 

@Akarin had 72 hours plus to download BS then it crashed 🤮


----------



## easyrider

muziksculp said:


> I personally take all these negative SINE comments with a big grain of Salt.
> 
> LOL.. Maybe NI is behind all this.


You’ve invested a chunk of change and have been keen on the SINE versions . Keep an open mind the reviews will come of people I respect on this forum


----------



## Vlzmusic

muziksculp said:


> I personally take all these negative SINE comments with a big grain of Salt.


I personally only take the sound examples into consideration, no seasoning required. 

Kind of sad situation though, I like many things OT does, and Miroire strings are first on my list for this BF, if some small coupon lands like it did last year. On the other hand I perfectly understand people who are upset.


----------



## Rudianos

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Why would you say that? There have been comparisons!


lol 1-2 mostly words. You were one so thanks.


----------



## dhmusic

Rudianos said:


> it would take someone on here about 20 minutes to draw up an actual comparison between the two. Demo. lots of complaining not enough action. who would be interested in putting side by side demos up? my only experience of the Berlin series is the celli section of the symphonic strings and I think they're fantastic


For the love of god why won't one of you volunteer to be a product specialist/unpaid sales rep


----------



## Francisco Lamolda

Seeing everyone here who tried the Sine ports I feel disappointed. So I'm gonna stick to my original plan of getting CSB and CSW for the details and legato. And then just some of the _a la carte_ BB and BWW for when I need a better choral sound.


----------



## Vik

Rudianos said:


> my only experience of the Berlin series is the celli section of the symphonic strings and I think they're fantastic


And the cellos in EXP B were even better – and was released on Sine a while ago (Special bows 1/2). I don’t know if there has been any complaints?


----------



## G_Erland

I feel like saying I want to acknowledge the enormous amount of work undertaken to bring these libraries and Sine out. I listen to demonstration tracks clearly made with these components and fail to see how they are not within the realm of quality that you can expect from sampling technology. I went for the strings having thought Id never be able to have them. Great fun to follow these developments, cheers!


----------



## prodigalson

Use legato patches from Kontakt and everything else from SINE. get the advantage of under the hood tweaks in Kontakt and the RAM overhead savings from SINE. problem solved. (if you have enough storage space).


----------



## djrustycans

Just want to thank OT for this huge undertaking in porting across the Berlin Mains. Particularly happy about the new double/triple forte dynamics in the Brass. I can now use the Berlin Brass for strong fanfares etc…

I do have an opinion on Sine player which isn’t particularly favourable - I feel like there’s much less control in general. There’s something about the release times which are a little sluggish to me. Using Marcato as a general example (in Strings & Brass), If I want to play a shorter note (than the full length sample), as soon as I let go of a key, the note should stop and the release sample should trigger but it never feels tight which results in sloppy phrasing. The release on the ADSR envelope is no good because you cut out the natural ambience. Ideally, in Sine, you want to be able to control the release of the ‘sustain’ portion of the sound only and let the release sample handle the tail. This currently isn’t possible…

I’ve noticed issues with a few libraries in Sine experiencing stuck/held on notes.

I’m sure you’ll iron these things out OT - including the legato. I have the utmost faith!!


----------



## andyhy

I want to say a big thankyou also to OT. I downloaded the SINE versions of BB and BWW last night (having bought them both in Kontakt last BF) and just played with them today. I know with sample libraries it's a very subjective thing but the sounds of these two blew my mind. The clarity is what struck me most and the extra fff in the Brass really hit me. I'm really going to enjoy using them and am now seriously thinking of taking advantage of the discount offer to buy Strings and Percussion (which now includes timpani).

It's also great not to suffer the constant eyestrain of the Kontakt GUI. I accept that I have to invest some time in learning how to use the new tools in SINE. In the meantime I've transferred the old kontakt versions of BB and BWW to another drive so I can still access them if needs be. Even though OT is committed to continuing to improve the SINE versions in response to user comments I anticipate still employing BWW Legacy in kontakt when it fits the sound I'm looking for. Might it be something for OT to consider adding later?


----------



## leonardo

Robin said:


> I was just talking with a few colleagues about the new Sine versions and comparing the legatos.
> 
> Here's a a file with parameters as identical as possible. Horn 1, Tree. First Kontakt, second Sine.
> 
> I'm sorry to say but the sine legato sounds considerably inferior to me.


I've taken your horn example and tried for myself. I think that one can make them sound a little bit more similar than in your version but I admit that it's hard to do so; in the Sine version of Horn 1 the louder dynamics kick in way earlier and ruin the good playability the Kontakt version had. If I'm not mistaken you chose the loudest dynamic in the Kontakt version which is a sound that can't be recreated perfectly in the Sine version because it sounds much more aggressive there, not as round as in Kontakt. So I chose a slightly softer dynamic and tried to recreate that in Sine. I didn't use the same MIDI data for Sine because it just didn't work well at all, I had to play it in separately. One strange thing in the Kontakt version of this horn is the accent that the first note gets - one has to edit that out in order to achieve a more equal response. So here is my take on your test, first Kontakt then Sine, Tree mic only:

View attachment Test Horn 1.1.mp3


The result is still not as good as in Kontakt, but it is useable.


Then I made my own test with Horn 1, again different MIDI recordings but I tried to play it similarly, first Kontakt then Sine, Tree mic only:

View attachment Test Horn 1.2.mp3


One can hear clearly a difference: the Kontakt version sounds much rounder and more natural, whereas the Sine version has some strange transitions, especially the sixths at the end of the phrase. I recorded it several times but didn't manage to achieve a better result, not even with MIDI edits afterwards; some transitions just sound bad to my ears. So I would say that at least for horn 1 the Kontakt version is way better.


Then an example of flute 1, again two different MIDI recordings, first Kontakt then Sine, Close + Tree mics:

View attachment Test Flute 1.mp3


Here I clearly prefer the Sine version: the legato is much better, especially in the high notes. The transitions in the Kontakt version sound unclear and phasey. Big improvement for me!


Lastly an example of clarinet 1, again two different MIDI recordings, first Kontakt then Sine, Close + Tree mics:

View attachment Test Clar.1.mp3


Here the Sine version is worse than the Kontakt version, which has smoother and more natural legato. But the Sine version is not bad either.


I haven't tried other instruments yet but these are clearly mixed results; that's quite a deception. The way it is now you have to go through every instrument and judge for yourself which version you like more... another thing I discovered in the comparison: you can't take existing MIDI data from your Kontakt projects and expect them to sound good in Sine, especially not in the horns where a louder dynamic has been added and thus everything has been shifted - you have to reprogram those parts unfortunately.

Anyway, I hope Orchestral Tools can improve the legatos in future updates.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

leonardo said:


> you can't take existing MIDI data from your Kontakt projects and expect them to sound good in Sine, especially not in the horns where a louder dynamic has been added and thus everything has been shifted - you have to reprogram those parts unfortunately.


Just a word about the portability of old project files with the SINE version of Berlin Brass, in theory you would just have to disable the new ff dynamic layer on each sustain/legato articulation, which can be done by clicking on a layer in the "Dyn" tab. If the dynamic haven't been remapped, that would be enough to get the same performance.


----------



## easyrider

prodigalson said:


> Use legato patches from Kontakt and everything else from SINE. get the advantage of under the hood tweaks in Kontakt and the RAM overhead savings from SINE. problem solved. (if you have enough storage space).


So double the space for a library released yesterday at a cost of €1500 ?

What if you don’t have the Kontakt versions?

This is not a solution….if the product is flawed my money goes elsewhere….


----------



## leonardo

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Just a word about the portability of old project files with the SINE version of Berlin Brass, in theory you would just have to disable the new ff dynamic layer on each sustain/legato articulation, which can be done by clicking on a layer in the "Dyn" tab. If the dynamic haven't been remapped, that would be enough to get the same performance.


Theoretically maybe... but I didn't even get the same result when using instruments that haven't received new dynamic layers like the flute or the clarinet... playing it in always got me better results than copying the MIDI data from Kontakt.


----------



## Robin

leonardo said:


> I've taken your horn example and tried for myself. I think that one can make them sound a little bit more similar than in your version but I admit that it's hard to do so; in the Sine version of Horn 1 the louder dynamics kick in way earlier and ruin the good playability the Kontakt version had. If I'm not mistaken you chose the loudest dynamic in the Kontakt version which is a sound that can't be recreated perfectly in the Sine version because it sounds much more aggressive there, not as round as in Kontakt. So I chose a slightly softer dynamic and tried to recreate that in Sine. I didn't use the same MIDI data for Sine because it just didn't work well at all, I had to play it in separately. One strange thing in the Kontakt version of this horn is the accent that the first note gets - one has to edit that out in order to achieve a more equal response. So here is my take on your test, first Kontakt then Sine, Tree mic only:
> 
> View attachment Test Horn 1.1.mp3
> 
> 
> The result is still not as good as in Kontakt, but it is useable.
> 
> 
> Then I made my own test with Horn 1, again different MIDI recordings but I tried to play it similarly, first Kontakt then Sine, Tree mic only:
> 
> View attachment Test Horn 1.2.mp3
> 
> 
> One can hear clearly a difference: the Kontakt version sounds much rounder and more natural, whereas the Sine version has some strange transitions, especially the sixths at the end of the phrase. I recorded it several times but didn't manage to achieve a better result, not even with MIDI edits afterwards; some transitions just sound bad to my ears. So I would say that at least for horn 1 the Kontakt version is way better.
> 
> 
> Then an example of flute 1, again two different MIDI recordings, first Kontakt then Sine, Close + Tree mics:
> 
> View attachment Test Flute 1.mp3
> 
> 
> Here I clearly prefer the Sine version: the legato is much better, especially in the high notes. The transitions in the Kontakt version sound unclear and phasey. Big improvement for me!
> 
> 
> Lastly an example of clarinet 1, again two different MIDI recordings, first Kontakt then Sine, Close + Tree mics:
> 
> View attachment Test Clar.1.mp3
> 
> 
> Here the Sine version is worse than the Kontakt version, which has smoother and more natural legato. But the Sine version is not bad either.
> 
> 
> I haven't tried other instruments yet but these are clearly mixed results; that's quite a deception. The way it is now you have to go through every instrument and judge for yourself which version you like more... another thing I discovered in the comparison: you can't take existing MIDI data from your Kontakt projects and expect them to sound good in Sine, especially not in the horns where a louder dynamic has been added and thus everything has been shifted - you have to reprogram those parts unfortunately.
> 
> Anyway, I hope Orchestral Tools can improve the legatos in future updates.


Thanks for the test, even though the dynamics of your horn example are better matched, what I'm really bothered by is how much worse the legato transitions sound in the Sine version, and I got that result from all instruments I tried in Berlin Brass so far.


----------



## Eptesicus

dhmusic said:


> Dude, _General MIDI _has better legatos than CSW


lol what?


----------



## prodigalson

easyrider said:


> So double the space for a library released yesterday at a cost of €1500 ?
> 
> What if you don’t have the Kontakt versions?
> 
> This is not a solution….if the product is flawed my money goes elsewhere….


Stand down. I was speaking mostly tongue in cheek.


----------



## Eptesicus

I was half tempted to give SINE the benefit of the doubt (after my early poor experiences of it) and pick up berlin brass in this sale.

Then i listened to those examples/comparisons earlier in the thread....yikes


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Can someone confirm if the Legato Ostinato Arp is not present in SINE Version ?

I cant find it , unless it is hidden away somewhere. Shame as I really loved that patch - Perhaps they have renamed it , as there seems to now be both Velocity and Speed factors in which Legato / Runs gets chosen. 

Also , is the Berlin WW Legato similar ? How many types of Legato do you get with the regular Legato patch ? Is it also dictated by Velocity and Speed ?


----------



## Paul Jelfs

Eptesicus said:


> I was half tempted to give SINE the benefit of the doubt (after my early poor experiences of it) and pick up berlin brass in this sale.
> 
> Then i listened to those examples/comparisons earlier in the thread....yikes


Some of the Legato, the runs in particular, I think sound better than the Old Kontakt Brass. I will have to do some side by side testing, but it seems not to smear as badly, and have better transitions at least in the Standard Legato patch. So its not all bad Governor.


----------



## NoamL

Thank you for the direct comparison @leonardo , I think the Kontakt version wins in each case except the flute solo.


----------



## RogiervG

The bundle is only for sine? or is there are way to get it for kontakt too? (same price, buying each library separate is a bit higher in price)


----------



## Zanshin

RogiervG said:


> The bundle is only for sine? or is there are way to get it for kontakt too? (same price, buying each library separate is a bit higher in price)


Yep. Nope. It's part of their "SINE Bundles".


----------



## RogiervG

Zanshin said:


> Yep. Nope. It's part of their "SINE Bundles".


hmm bummer... Listening to those compare fragments, i think the kontakt versions sound better overal (at this point, maybe it will be fixed before the sale is over), so leaning towards that for now.


----------



## Zanshin

RogiervG said:


> hmm bummer... Listening to those compare fragments, i think the kontakt versions sound better overal (at this point, maybe it will be fixed before the sale is over), so leaning towards that for now.


Yeah I'm in a similar state, but leaning towards getting nothing lol. Upgrading to Sine later at 80+84+64 euros seems like a stupid decision (for me), and I would want to because the ease of use and mic merge feature.

The Sine brass walk thru sounds mostly great, so not an easy decision.


----------



## storyteller

@OrchestralTools @OT_Tobias I've been a happy user and big fan of BWW over the years having purchased all of the expansions except for Revive. This leaves me with a number of questions...

What is the situation with BWW Legacy moving forward? 
Will it be ported to SINE? 
Are Expansions A and D being ported to SINE or being re-recorded to match Revive?
Currently a new user can buy into BWW at $324... which is great, but as a longtime BWW + all expansions user who did not purchase Revive and was expecting Legacy to be ported (since it is included in Revive), I would be forced to pay $270 for the SINE version with mismatched expansions. This doesn't seem in good faith to existing users - especially since there has been no communication regarding these decisions. 
Will users without Revive be provided some other upgrade pricing? I think we were all expecting to see Legacy in SINE or receive the upgrade for free like the other OT libraries.
What is the situation with CC assignments on mic faders and other controls in SINE?


----------



## FKVStudio

Very well!! You know guys !! Make your donation here to be able to buy the entire collection (except for BWW that I already have) and make a video tutorial of all its characteristics.

Donations here!! xD

Nooo. The donations are a joke but if I could buy them, I would make the video. Let's see what I can find in BWW again in Sine.


----------



## djrustycans

Berlin Strings sounding great so far on Sine. Haven’t compared with Kontakt version yet but this is such a great sounding string library. Not saying there won’t be ‘any’ issues but I think most people on the fence due to concerns of Kontakt vs Sine will be missing out if they don’t buy it!

Edit:
First impressions are that I think legato is better than Kontakt version out of the box. Transitions are slightly slower I think. However, I don’t mean sluggish. Slight annoyance is that I have to set up the legato patches to include the sustain accent (like Kontakt version).


----------



## jbuhler

AEF said:


> The irony is SINE was supposed to feature a fancy way of making sure the legatos were just right. The legatos of Berklee Berlin orchestra are wretched as well. Special bows are worse in SINE. BSS violins are still unusable for legatos.
> 
> Its a dog of a piece of software, and Im glad to not be using it anymore.


None of the Sine legatos are on the whole unusable. You might not like them or have others that you prefer but that is a completely different matter. Personally I just finished a piece that used the BSS legatos extensively with no issues I couldn’t work around. Are there problems with the legatos? Yes, some. They aren’t perfect. But they also aren’t unusable.


----------



## muziksculp

djrustycans said:


> First impressions are that I think legato is better than Kontakt version out of the box. Transitions are slightly slower I think. However, I don’t mean sluggish. Slight annoyance is that I have to set up the legato patches to include the sustain accent (like Kontakt version).


Thanks for the feedback.  

It's refreshing to hear some positive feedback about the SINE version legatos.


----------



## jbuhler

easyrider said:


> So double the space for a library released yesterday at a cost of €1500 ?
> 
> What if you don’t have the Kontakt versions?
> 
> This is not a solution….if the product is flawed my money goes elsewhere….


I mean it depends on what you mean by flawed. I certainly wouldn’t advise anyone who doesn’t like what they are hearing in the basic sound to buy the library. The transitions are a bit more difficult to say, as they can be addressed in scripting. Whether they will or not is another question. And I can’t I love any of the legatos in Kontakt either. I found they would frequently misfire. Bur with all that the libraries have much to offer. They are deep and have extensive redundancy meaning you have multiple routes to accomplish something. So when you encounter a bug you can usually find a workaround.


----------



## AEF

jbuhler said:


> None of the Sine legatos are on the whole unusable. You might not like them or have others that you prefer but that is a completely different matter. Personally I just finished a piece that used the BSS legatos extensively with no issues I couldn’t work around. Are there problems with the legatos? Yes, some. They aren’t perfect. But they also aren’t unusable.


LOL and there he is. The white knight of OT come to the rescue as usual.

I dont think there has ever been a thread in which OT has been criticized that you havent come to fluff for them. It’s very obvious.

Please do show us these wonderful violin legatos from BSS. Would love to hear them.


----------



## jbuhler

AEF said:


> LOL and there he is. The white knight of OT come to the rescue as usual.
> 
> I dont think there has ever been a thread in which OT has been criticized that you havent come to fluff for them. It’s very obvious.


Whatever dude.


----------



## ism

AEF said:


> LOL and there he is. The white knight of OT come to the rescue as usual.
> 
> I dont think there has ever been a thread in which OT has been criticized that you havent come to fluff for them. It’s very obvious.



So you revert to personal attacks when people disagree with your opinion?


----------



## AEF

ism said:


> So you revert to personal attacks when people disagree with your opinion?


This poster is clearly on the site to hype up and defend one company. Its over and over and over. It’s ridiculous and muddies the waters of the site.


----------



## doctoremmet

AEF said:


> This poster is clearly on the site to hype up and defend one company. Its over and over and over. It’s ridiculous and muddies the waters of the site.


Yeah. No. Jim’s a true musician and shares nothing but his valuable experience. Your aggression is the only ridiculous thing to be honest.


----------



## Jett Hitt

AEF said:


> This poster is clearly on the site to hype up and defend one company. Its over and over and over. It’s ridiculous and muddies the waters of the site.


That is ridiculous. I have seen him criticize many things about OT and their libraries.


----------



## ism

AEF said:


> This poster is clearly on the site to hype up and defend one company. Its over and over and over. It’s ridiculous and muddies the waters of the site.


Counterpoint: that’s a) complete bullshit, b) an ad hominem that violates community standards.


Not the place to argue this. Maybe time for moderators to intervene.


----------



## jbuhler

AEF said:


> This poster is clearly on the site to hype up and defend one company. Its over and over and over. It’s ridiculous and muddies the waters of the site.


Oh, aren't you cute! Everyone here knows there's another company that is actually the basis of my template. And I'm far from uncritical of OT. But you do you! 

And if you want to believe I'm a super secret spy sent by OT to defend them, that's great! Maybe you can even convince OT that they should send me the rest of the Berlin series as compensation for my good work on their behalf! (I only have Berlin Strings, the Special Bows, BSS, and the FC. I'd love to have Berlin Brass, Woodwinds, and Percussion.) But of course that's just what I'd say if I WAS a super secret spy for OT. I'm a sneaky one, that's for sure. And I guess I've also just proved your point. D'oh!


----------



## Casiquire

ism said:


> So you revert to personal attacks when people disagree with your opinion?


Every time. Pops up in pretty much any heated OT thread to attack anyone defending OT. They'll probably do it to me too even though I've been critical, but fair, to OT too


----------



## AEF

jbuhler said:


> Oh, aren't you cute! Everyone here knows there's another company that is actually the basis of my template. And I'm far from uncritical of OT. But you do you!
> 
> And if you want to believe I'm a super secret spy sent by OT to defend them, that's great! Maybe you can even convince OT that they should send me the rest of the Berlin series as compensation for my good work on their behalf! (I only have Berlin Strings, the Special Bows, BSS, and the FC. I'd love to have Berlin Brass, Woodwinds, and Percussion.) But of course that's just what I'd say if I WAS a super secret spy for OT. I'm a sneaky one, that's for sure. And I guess I've also just proved your point. D'oh!


Please show us these BSS violins.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Hey everyone,

Thanks for all your comments and feedback here! It’s very rewarding when we work so hard on a big release to see that people are genuinely interested and excited about it. Releasing the Berlin Series on SINE was a long time coming, but it’s probably one of the most important projects we’ve worked on recently. Thanks for being a part of it!

Firstly, I want to say that converting a collection from Kontakt to SINE is more than a copy-paste job. For each update, we need to set up all legato parameters in the background from scratch. Technologically there are also some additional legato features in SINE, so it’s effectively like creating a new product each time. That’s why small differences can happen: Some instruments might sound slightly different from version to version. This means that you can’t necessarily use the same MIDI data for two different instruments and expect them to sound the same!

*One obvious difference is the new fff layer in Berlin Brass.* A lot of you requested this, and we’re happy to finally include it. Now you have a much wider dynamic range than before, and the crossover points between the samples are very different. So yes, old MIDI files will sound different now. But you have much more scope for new pieces. I’m going to post a video about this soon—stay tuned.

With Berlin Strings, Berlin Woodwinds, Berlin Brass, and Berlin Percussion, we released 4 collections simultaneously. And we tested the hell out of them, but it’s still possible that we can improve further. We’re glad to see these comments here: They help us identify and isolate possible issues that we can fix in future updates. So thanks very much again—we’ll continue to work on our Berlin Series collections and we’ll fix anything that needs fixing in future patch updates.

I’m personally very proud of the Berlin Series and it’s exciting to update them like this—to see the response from everyone, and to hear the music you’re making with these collections.

All the best,

Hendrik


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Is there any difference between the original Timpani library vs. buying it as an individual instrument via SINE now? Seems to be a few bucks cheaper in SINE and as far as I can tell, has all the same articulations?


----------



## dhmusic

AEF said:


> LOL and there he is. The white knight of OT come to the rescue as usual.
> 
> I dont think there has ever been a thread in which OT has been criticized that you havent come to fluff for them. It’s very obvious.
> 
> Please do show us these wonderful violin legatos from BSS. Would love to hear them.


I didn't mean to embarrass you in that trumpet thread but I completely understand why you'd feel embarrassed


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Is there any difference between the original Timpani library vs. buying it as an individual instrument via SINE now? Seems to be a few bucks cheaper in SINE and as far as I can tell, has all the same articulations?


Timpani and Timpani Baroque Mallets include the same content like the former Berlin Timpani. We also lowered the price a bit.


----------



## coprhead6

Very excited to complete my Bundle with Percussion and Strings for a fraction of what I was planning to pay! 

I posted this in another thread already, but the Horn Bold Sustains with re-tongued legato is an absolute revelation.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> *One obvious difference is the new fff layer in Berlin Brass.* A lot of you requested this, and we’re happy to finally include it.


The new fff layer is great! Any chance there will ever be an extra ff layer in woodwinds? Flutes and piccolos should be capable of cutting through the orchestra in the high registers, but those dynamics don't exist yet in Berlin Woodwinds, at least not using the legato patches.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Here are some thoughts about the Berlin Series and the new FFF layer for Berlin Brass:




Best,
Hendrik


----------



## Jose7822

OT,

Around this time last year, I was looking for an orchestral library to substitute my current one (some of you may know the reasons, but that’s a different story). I researched all of the available options and OT was one that stood out for its beautiful room sound, as well as its comprehensive collection of articulations. There simply wasn’t another orchestral sample library that sounded as realistic, IMO of course.

Back then I was hoping you guys would do a big BF sale this year, and here we are. As soon as I found out that the entire Berlin Series was, not only ported to SINE, but also been put on sale as a bundle for the first time ever, I immediately pulled the trigger. I still haven’t downloaded it since I want to do some maintenance (i.e. finish archiving old projects before removing my current main library), but I’m looking forward to composing new music with your Berlin series moving forward.

Thanks for the massive undertaking of porting the Berlin series to SINE, and for taking your customers seriously in terms of further refining and improving this library in the near future. It’s very comforting and reassuring to hear that a developer cares about their customers because, well why wouldn’t you? So I already feel like I’ve made the right choice by choosing you guys.

Please keep up the good work!!


----------



## Zanshin

AEF said:


> LOL and there he is. The white knight of OT come to the rescue as usual.



I hate to pile on, but my own personal experience with @jbuhler has been the opposite. I had expressed interest in a OT library that had been ported to Sine (Berlin Woodwinds Soloists) and he gave his honest (not positive) experience with it. 

I wonder more about the widdershins, the "black knights" lol. Those that always come around just say some negative stuff in certain companies threads, OT has some, VSL more than a few, SF too etc. Why expend the energy. With the venom from some, it's like the CEO must have got their wife pregnant, and stole the dog!


----------



## oooooooooooooooooh

zwhita said:


> Having trouble deciding if BWW is worth spending $368 on. Listening to Marc Jovani's video's, it's clear that BWW legato are inferior to CSW by leaps and bounds, but BWW has a great symphonic tone and a more complete articulation set.
> All I know is comparing BWW during this sale to Fluffy Woodwinds Solo bundle for $198 that I bought last year at 50% off, the latter is a ripoff and I stand to lose at least that amount by deserting it entirely.
> 
> Think I'll come back to this site in about 5 years and see if any of these libraries are actually reasonably priced.


So, one thing worth noting (which Jovani does NOT clarify and it's dishonest that he didn't do so for those who aren't aware), is that he's using BWW Legacy, not revive, which is the current version. Some people really prefer legacy, and I get it because I do actually think the tone is a bit better, but I find Revive to be easier to program more convincingly, ultimately making it sound better for myself. The legatos are a noticeable upgrade, so that would be a more fair comparison. As it is, it's as if he was comparing Cinematic Strings 1 with the current version of Berlin Strings--hardly a fair comparison for CS1, since it isn't even for sale anymore and has been easily surpassed.

Obviously, just go with the one that you like the sound of the best. But before you make your decision, I would recommend seeking out a demo of BWW Revive so you have a more fair comparison (I'd also recommend Infinite Winds, which is king of playability, but has a slightly weaker tone).


muziksculp said:


> For those who are unsatisfied with the Legatos in SINE, have you contacted Orchestral Tools to provide them your feedback/dissatisfaction with the Legato quality ?


I actually did with my First Chairs a while back and they basically were like "you just aren't keyswitching enough" (I sent them one made with a Cubase expression map, so they though I wasn't keyswitching at all), so they didn't actually address it. I had a whole thread where people were saying "wow, that sounds messed up", so they didn't really acknowledge there was a problem in the first place.


----------



## dzilizzi

There's a lot of non-OT library talk for a commercial thread. we probably should start a discussion thread in Sample Talk?


----------



## fgimian

Zhao Shen said:


> BWW owners who didn't upgrade to Revive are a bit screwed - according to this, crossgrading and then switching to SINE would cost 264€, whereas buying BWW right now without having owned it before is 324€. @OrchestralTools Any plans to make that upgrade path more appealing?





ALittleNightMusic said:


> I entered my Woodwinds Revive serial into SINE to get the crossgrade and it gave me an error. Anybody else run into that?
> 
> Those brass legatos are disappointing as the only thing I've really wanted to buy for some time is the updated Berlin Brass.


Just wanted to respond to both these comments as I'm affected by this too. I had not purchased the Revive crossgrade and decided to do so today expecting to get the SINE crossgrade to Berlin Woodwinds for free as was previous promised here.

However, what happened instead is I'm now being asked to pay an additional 65 EUR for the SINE crossgrade.





I noticed this on the crossgrade page only after I had purchased where it says: *After purchasing this license, a crossgrade to the SINEplayer version of BWW becomes available to purchase for 65€. *

I love Orchestral Tools, but in no way does this seem fair to me. I already contacted support about it.

All my other collections activated just fine in SINE, but the Berlin Woodwinds situation is extremely confusing. This page makes it all even more confusing. The last condition there makes no sense at all, why is there a difference between those that purchased Revive today vs those that purchased it any other time.

I'm so confused and frustrated by all this!

Orchestral Tools, please just simplify this. Berlin Woodwinds Revive owners should get SINE for free. Those with the legacy version need to crossgrade to Revive in order to get the SINE version; that should be it.


----------



## I like music

Does anyone know if there's a way to switch between nonvib/romatic/progressive vibrato directly in your DAW, within BWW in Kontakt? @Casiquire perhaps you know?


----------



## Keinoom

FrozenIcicle said:


> @OrchestralTools are arks going on sale afterwards? Much rather spend my money on them


Good question. Will we get an answer?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

fgimian said:


> Just wanted to respond to both these comments as I'm affected by this too. I had not purchased the Revive crossgrade and decided to do so today expecting to get the SINE crossgrade to Berlin Woodwinds for free as was previous promised here.
> 
> However, what happened instead is I'm now being asked to pay an additional 65 EUR for the SINE crossgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I noticed this on the crossgrade page only after I had purchased where it says: *After purchasing this license, a crossgrade to the SINEplayer version of BWW becomes available to purchase for 65€. *
> 
> I love Orchestral Tools, but in no way does this seem fair to me. I already contacted support about it.
> 
> All my other collections activated just fine in SINE, but the Berlin Woodwinds situation is extremely confusing. This page makes it all even more confusing. The last condition there makes no sense at all, why is there a difference between those that purchased Revive today vs those that purchased it any other time.
> 
> I'm so confused and frustrated by all this!
> 
> Orchestral Tools, please just simplify this. Berlin Woodwinds Revive owners should get SINE for free. Those with the legacy version need to crossgrade to Revive in order to get the SINE version; that should be it.


I contacted their support via email and they resolved this for me quickly - they had to manually add the license to my account. No charge for it.


----------



## Robin

I like music said:


> Does anyone know if there's a way to switch between nonvib/romatic/progressive vibrato directly in your DAW, within BWW in Kontakt? @Casiquire perhaps you know?


CC3


----------



## karender

So now, Berlin Strings doesn't have Con Sordino, Agile legato, Ostinato arp legato, and playable glissandi?

Also, we can't use legato with trills and tremolos. And, there are no TO Trills patches too.

Am I right? Or am I missing something under the menus?


----------



## I like music

Robin said:


> CC3


Fantastic, thanks so much! Super useful.


----------



## dhmusic

karender said:


> So now, Berlin Strings doesn't have Con Sordino, Agile legato, Ostinato arp legato, and playable glissandi?
> 
> Also, we can't use legato with trills and tremolos. And, there are no TO Trills patches too.
> 
> Am I right? Or am I missing something under the menus?


These are only available in the kontakt version.

I'd look at Berlin Strings and Berlin Strings SINE as two different libraries with some overlap to avoid unnecessary disappointment / expectations. You could say Kontakt is missing the SINE features too.

I def wish we could assign and experiment with the legato assignments. You can get around this by implementing polymaps to a degree though. In some cases this would actually be a more realistic/expressive way to implement a forced legato on a non legato transition.


----------



## karender

dhmusic said:


> These are only available in the kontakt version.
> 
> I'd look at Berlin Strings and Berlin Strings SINE as two different libraries with some overlap to avoid unnecessary disappointment / expectations. You could say Kontakt is missing the SINE features too.
> 
> I def wish we could assign and experiment with the legato assignments. You can get around this by implementing polymaps to a degree though. In some cases this would actually be a more realistic/expressive way to implement a forced legato on a non legato transition.


I'm already disappointed, but also very positive about the future of SINE. I'm pretty sure they will add those stuff back.


----------



## fgimian

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I contacted their support via email and they resolved this for me quickly - they had to manually add the license to my account. No charge for it.


That's awesome news, thanks for letting me know. I'll update everyone on what happens with mine too in case it helps anyone.


----------



## chrisav

So some things were removed from Berlin strings in the transition to Sine, but was anything added? I'm talking about samples/articulations here. Still debating whether to get them i kontakt, sine or at all 😅


----------



## Jose7822

karender said:


> So now, Berlin Strings doesn't have Con Sordino, Agile legato, Ostinato arp legato, and playable glissandi?
> 
> Also, we can't use legato with trills and tremolos. And, there are no TO Trills patches too.
> 
> Am I right? Or am I missing something under the menus?


Oh, I hope they add these patches in a future update. I wasn’t aware that they were part of the Kontakt version. It’s the right thing to do since OT is supposed to be porting their existing libraries to the SINE format, so these shouldn’t be left out.


----------



## JTB

Why SINE still doesn't offer the ability to change from CC controls Vel.Xfade to Velocity controls Vel.Xfade on fly is perplexing.


----------



## Scalms

have them


Jose7822 said:


> Oh, I hope they add these patches in a future update. I wasn’t aware that they were part of the Kontakt version. It’s the right thing to do since OT is supposed to be porting their existing libraries to the SINE format, so these shouldn’t be left out.


yep I hope too, because their simulated sordino is actually one of the best sordino out there, IMO. And the arp legato are also the best I found for these kind of fast passages ( perhaps even better then Performance samples and CSS).


----------



## Scalms

Everyone…. try to get both kontact and Sine, for the relative small fee. You will not regret having both tools. I would rather spend the extra money to ease future frustrations


----------



## Marsen

It's much like the last chance, to get the Kontakt versions for this price. 
I would pay the extra.


----------



## lettucehat

Scalms said:


> Everyone…. try to get both kontact and Sine, for the relative small fee. You will not regret having both tools. I would rather spend the extra money to ease future frustrations


I would love to do this but the enormous savings of the Sine bundle (I have none of the four libraries) is _only_ available through the Sine bundle. I forget the exact numbers but the full bundle is maybe 30-40 euro more than getting Strings/Brass/Winds alone. I would gladly pay the same fees to "downgrade" to Kontakt if necessary, but they don't allow that. I can't ignore getting _Berlin Percussion_ thrown in for the price of one takeout dinner, especially if Sine issues are fixed - they came out yesterday!


----------



## Scalms

lettucehat said:


> I would love to do this but the enormous savings of the Sine bundle (I have none of the four libraries) is _only_ available through the Sine bundle. I forget the exact numbers but the full bundle is maybe 30-40 euro more than getting Strings/Brass/Winds alone. I would gladly pay the same fees to "downgrade" to Kontakt if necessary, but they don't allow that. I can't ignore getting _Berlin Percussion_ thrown in for the price of one takeout dinner, especially if Sine issues are fixed - they came out yesterday!


so true, yeah, makes sense, forgot about the bundle


----------



## Marsen

Seems, I missed something. Isn't the difference about 135,- € + Vat?


----------



## RonOrchComp

Anyone know if the newly created BS will open on a previous version of SINE? 1.0.5, specifically.


----------



## Zanshin

Upgrade from Kontakt to Sine would be another 225 euro too (plus vat for some) (for strings, woods, brass)


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

OK, I'm downloading the Main Berlin Orchestra Libraries (SINE).

Meanwhile, I was watching the Berlin Strings Video posted on the OT site, and was very delighted to see the many options for short articulations it offers.

Once you mix these together in a short articulation phrase, a much more realistic performance, with more rich bow-brush colors, will add so much more to the realism of the performance. I'm looking forward to give these a spin. I'm a big fan of short articulations, there is too much emphasis on Legato here, that the shorts don't get enough attention. Sure Legatos are very important, but so are the Shorts. I will also give the legatos a thorough test, once I have Berlin Strings Installed.

By the way, there is a new SINE version 1.0.7 that I had to install. Just wanted to bring this to your attention.

Cheers,
Muziksculp

Here is a pic of the short articulations in BS (SINE) :


----------



## lettucehat

Marsen said:


> Seems, I missed something. Isn't the difference about 135,- € + Vat?


I guess I had fat fingers when I did the quick calculation! You're right. Still a conun_drum_ though, pun intended.


----------



## dhmusic

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, I'm downloading the Main Berlin Orchestra Libraries (SINE).
> 
> Meanwhile, I was watching the Berlin Strings Video posted on the OT site, and was very delighted to see so the many options for short articulations it offers.
> 
> Once you mix these together in a short articulation phrase, a much more realistic performance, with more rich bow-brush colors, will add so much more to the realism of the performance. I'm looking forward to give these a spin. I'm a big fan of short articulations, there is too much emphasis on Legato here, that the shorts don't get enough attention. Sure Legatos are very important, but so are the Shorts. I will also give the legatos a thorough test, once I have Berlin Strings Installed.
> 
> By the way, there is a new SINE version 1.0.7 that I had to install. Just wanted to bring this to your attention.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp
> 
> Here is a pic of the short articulations in BS (SINE) :



That list is at least 3 times longer than what the pic is showing, not including dynamic shorts or ornamental shorts


----------



## muziksculp

dhmusic said:


> That list is at least 3 times longer than what the pic is showing, not including dynamic shorts or ornamental shorts


Yes, that's correct. I was just lazy to type them, so posted a pic of the video, which doesn't show all of them. Thanks for making a note of this fact.


----------



## muziksculp

Here is the complete List of articulations for BS Violins 1 (SINE)


----------



## muziksculp

Another advantage the SINE format has over the Kontakt version, is the SSD Space it requires.

The entire Main Berlin Orchestra (Strs, Brass, Woodwinds, Perc.) requires 998 GB of disc space for Kontakt, 390 GB for SINE. That's a huge difference in Disc Space Economization that the SINE version offers.


----------



## jbuhler

RonOrchComp said:


> Anyone know if the newly created BS will open on a previous version of SINE? 1.0.5, specifically.


I don’t think so. I couldn’t even download BS without upgrading to Sine 1.0.7


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, I'm downloading the Main Berlin Orchestra Libraries (SINE).
> 
> Meanwhile, I was watching the Berlin Strings Video posted on the OT site, and was very delighted to see so the many options for short articulations it offers.
> 
> Once you mix these together in a short articulation phrase, a much more realistic performance, with more rich bow-brush colors, will add so much more to the realism of the performance. I'm looking forward to give these a spin. I'm a big fan of short articulations, there is too much emphasis on Legato here, that the shorts don't get enough attention. Sure Legatos are very important, but so are the Shorts. I will also give the legatos a thorough test, once I have Berlin Strings Installed.
> 
> By the way, there is a new SINE version 1.0.7 that I had to install. Just wanted to bring this to your attention.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp
> 
> Here is a pic of the short articulations in BS (SINE) :


Good call out. I'm just toying with the library and realizing how packed full it is with useful other articulations that don't get much attention. 

I love the idea of the blurred articulations too and maybe one day in 2087 SINE will fade them in when playing fast passages


----------



## Casiquire

RonOrchComp said:


> Anyone know if the newly created BS will open on a previous version of SINE? 1.0.5, specifically.


I don't believe so. I think all of the mains require updating


----------



## Hendrixon

Just wanted to say, yesterday I bought BSS because it was a great deal for BS owners.
It was night here, at first I was unimpressed, played with the mics but couldn't get a satisfactory sound, it was too roomy for my taste.

A day later, fresh ears... and I like it a lot.
Even the violins that in the demos sound like lacking vib, are actually pretty ok. their not css but then the section size difference is huge.

Definitely get them if you own BS.


----------



## JTB

These libraries are not the pinnacle of sample libraries. They may have a 7 out of 10 sound but for usability, I would give them a weak 4 out of 10.

Coming from frequently using VSL products the difference is night and day in regards to ease of use. This is due to the software and QC of samples.
BS needs the user to tie themselves in knots and then do cartwheels up hill to get a coherent passage.
These libraries are worth 400 euros tops.

It's about time OT reduced the price of these extremely long in the tooth products once and for all.


----------



## MaxOctane

Zanshin said:


> With the venom from some, it's like the CEO must have got their wife pregnant, and stole the dog!


Not to derail, but I want to hear more about this wife. And this dog.


----------



## JTB

MaxOctane said:


> Not to derail, but I want to hear more about this wife. And this dog.


I bought BS because of the hype. Never buying another OT product and my wife and dog are in 100% agreeance.


----------



## Casiquire

JTB said:


> These libraries are not the pinnacle of sample libraries. They may have a 7 out of 10 sound but for usability, I would give them a weak 4 out of 10.
> 
> Coming from frequently using VSL products the difference is night and day in regards to ease of use. This is due to the software and QC of samples.
> BS needs the user to tie themselves in knots and then do cartwheels up hill to get a coherent passage.
> These libraries are worth 400 euros tops.
> 
> It's about time OT reduced the price of these extremely long in the tooth products once and for all.


If they were to fix up a few things, i think they'd be totally worth the full price. Better SINE functionality, bit of rebalancing, and retouching the SINE legato.

I think they're on the cusp of being like a top-two complete orchestral package. But they keep stumbling at the finish line


----------



## JTB

Casiquire said:


> If they were to fix up a few things, i think they'd be totally worth the full price. Better SINE functionality, bit of rebalancing, and retouching the SINE legato.
> 
> I think they're on the cusp of being like a top-two complete orchestral package. But they keep stumbling at the finish line


Or maybe other companies keep are moving the finishing line out of OT's reach.


----------



## Casiquire

JTB said:


> Or maybe other companies keep are moving the finishing line out of OT's reach.


Nope. I'm not aware of any other orchestral bundle with as much detail. There's only one potential close contender


----------



## lettucehat

So do commercial threads just not have rules about mentioning competitors anymore?


----------



## Futchibon

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> OK, I'm downloading the Main Berlin Orchestra Libraries (SINE).
> 
> Meanwhile, I was watching the Berlin Strings Video posted on the OT site, and was very delighted to see the many options for short articulations it offers.
> 
> Once you mix these together in a short articulation phrase, a much more realistic performance, with more rich bow-brush colors, will add so much more to the realism of the performance. I'm looking forward to give these a spin. I'm a big fan of short articulations, there is too much emphasis on Legato here, that the shorts don't get enough attention. Sure Legatos are very important, but so are the Shorts. I will also give the legatos a thorough test, once I have Berlin Strings Installed.
> 
> By the way, there is a new SINE version 1.0.7 that I had to install. Just wanted to bring this to your attention.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp
> 
> Here is a pic of the short articulations in BS (SINE) :


Yeah those shorts sound AMAZING!!!!!

Downloading the Violins 1 Long & Shorts now, amazing value for $65, can't wait to give 'em a spin


----------



## dhmusic

JTB said:


> Or maybe other companies keep are moving the finishing line out of OT's reach.


You show me _anything_ another library can do and I'll 1UP it with muh sweet sweet OTs 

*beats chest*

AGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!! I'm so intense right now!


----------



## Getsumen

JTB said:


> These libraries are not the pinnacle of sample libraries. They may have a 7 out of 10 sound but for usability, I would give them a weak 4 out of 10.
> 
> Coming from frequently using VSL products the difference is night and day in regards to ease of use. This is due to the software and QC of samples.
> BS needs the user to tie themselves in knots and then do cartwheels up hill to get a coherent passage.
> These libraries are worth 400 euros tops.
> 
> It's about time OT reduced the price of these extremely long in the tooth products once and for all.


OT stuff may be considered expensive, but something like Berlin Strings for 240 Euros? (If someone has EDU discount) Are you hearing yourself?

Berlin can definitely benefit from a few playability features, but unless I'm missing something it's literally just normal key switches like the majority of the libraries out there. (With the added benefit that most articulations are standardized!). Berlin Mains were also never really marketed as the "playable" versions. I guess that would be the Inspire and Berlin Orchestra stuff.

Berlin can definitely have improvements. (Especially the SINE legatos it seems) but saying that Berlin is a 400$ line is ridiculous


----------



## LostintheBardo

Just got BB and I'm in love!


----------



## LostintheBardo

JTB said:


> These libraries are not the pinnacle of sample libraries. They may have a 7 out of 10 sound but for usability, I would give them a weak 4 out of 10.
> 
> Coming from frequently using VSL products the difference is night and day in regards to ease of use. This is due to the software and QC of samples.
> BS needs the user to tie themselves in knots and then do cartwheels up hill to get a coherent passage.
> These libraries are worth 400 euros tops.
> 
> It's about time OT reduced the price of these extremely long in the tooth products once and for all.


I don't own BS so won't comment on your experience there but I do have BWW which I love and have just got BB today and am in love already. In fairness, I probably wouldn't be quite so in love with it if I didn't have the updated version with the fff layer but what specific woodwind and brass libraries are there that exist that you think are so far ahead of BWW and BB?


----------



## Rudianos

LostintheBardo said:


> I don't own BS so won't comment on your experience there but I do have BWW which I love and have just got BB today and am in love already. In fairness, I probably wouldn't be quite so in love with it if I didn't have the updated version with the fff layer but what specific woodwind and brass libraries are there that exist that you think are so far ahead of BWW and BB?


So close to buying the SINE bundle. Waiting to see when @OrchestralTools gets crossgrade Timpani to SINE. Just filled out the rest of the Symphonic Strings and I have to say gorgeous! Had the Celli before and glad I filled it out... Glad to here you are finding joy in those libraries.


----------



## TintoL

JTB said:


> These libraries are not the pinnacle of sample libraries. They may have a 7 out of 10 sound but for usability, I would give them a weak 4 out of 10.
> 
> Coming from frequently using VSL products the difference is night and day in regards to ease of use. This is due to the software and QC of samples.
> BS needs the user to tie themselves in knots and then do cartwheels up hill to get a coherent passage.
> These libraries are worth 400 euros tops.
> 
> It's about time OT reduced the price of these extremely long in the tooth products once and for all.


I totally understand the frustration. I do believe that Sine needs some work in several areas. 

However, the comparison with VSL is highly debatable. VSL is a matured company that has been creating software for decades. I mean, the first orchestral library for kontakt was vsl. And since then they have been developing software.

You can not compare the software development experience gained from creating vep pro and mir. That alone makes creating a player a junior engineering work.

I think Sine has been out for only 2 years or so? I personally give them credit for attempting to innovate and I hope with time they can clean Sine.

As a parallel story, Spitfire also released their own thing, and even though imperfect it works just fine. 
I rather fake a legato with sustains than turning vsl or sample modeling into a taldex room.
Just a different perspective.

I guess as a small personal opinion, OT should be careful of growing too quickly and attempting to gain more market by producing too many frequent new products. In my work experience (VFX, animation and film industry) I am tired to see companies disappearing exactly because of that.


----------



## Reactor.UK

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I entered my Woodwinds Revive serial into SINE to get the crossgrade and it gave me an error. Anybody else run into that?
> 
> Those brass legatos are disappointing as the only thing I've really wanted to buy for some time is the updated Berlin Brass.


Yes, I've contacted Orchestral Tools as my original serial does not work. All the other libraries thus far worked.


----------



## storyteller

It seems like OT decided to offer the Revive cross grade for 50% off in this sale too. I think that is a great move on their part for Legacy users.



Thanks OT. I was one of a number of people that spoke up about it, so I will also be the first to say I went ahead and purchased the cross grade. It would still be great to hear if Legacy will be ported to SINE. I think that would also be a great move on their part as well.


----------



## JTB

TintoL said:


> I totally understand the frustration. I do believe that Sine needs some work in several areas.
> 
> However, the comparison with VSL is highly debatable. VSL is a matured company that has been creating software for decades. I mean, the first orchestral library for kontakt was vsl. And since then they have been developing software.
> 
> You can not compare the software development experience gained from creating vep pro and mir. That alone makes creating a player a junior engineering work.
> 
> I think Sine has been out for only 2 years or so? I personally give them credit for attempting to innovate and I hope with time they can clean Sine.
> 
> As a parallel story, Spitfire also released their own thing, and even though imperfect it works just fine.
> I rather fake a legato with sustains than turning vsl or sample modeling into a taldex room.
> Just a different perspective.
> 
> I guess as a small personal opinion, OT should be careful of growing too quickly and attempting to gain more market by producing too many frequent new products. In my work experience (VFX, animation and film industry) I am tired to see companies disappearing exactly because of that.


Yo! There is something lacking in the overall experience when working with BS and Special Bows 1+2.
The software is clunky and the QC on the samples in second rate. Oh, and some nasty LEGATO (there I said it) transitions. This is why 840 euros, 8-9 years since its release is just too much.


----------



## dhmusic

JTB said:


> Oh, and some nasty LEGATO (there I said it) transitions


U sayin u got a problem with nasty legatos?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

@Hendrik-Schwarzer Will a future update of SINE integrate with Studio One Sound Variations like some other sample players do?


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> @Hendrik-Schwarzer Will a future update of SINE integrate with Studio One Sound Variations like some other sample players do?


That would be awesome ! 

Yes, Please @OrchestralTools , SINE integration with Studio One Pro Sound-Variations would be a very welcome feature. VSL Synchron Player, and EW-OPUS Player offer it already. Would Love it if SINE was the next Player to implement this super helpful feature. 

THANKS


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Anybody have extremely slow downloads? Bought the entire collection and trying to download Brass, but it is telling me 7 hours for 1 instrument.


----------



## fgimian

Okies, little update from me, and the answer was that I must pay for a crossgrade to the SINE version of BWW because I purchased the Revive crossgrade after November 18th.

Here's a quote from the response for anyone's reference:



> As with all free crossgerades, you'll get them if you bought the Kontakt version until the time when the SINE version is released. So any purchase of the Crossgrade starting Nov 18 will need to pay for the SINE crossgrade.


----------



## Igorianych

First impressions - no questions asked about strings. By the way, they go pretty cool with the Berlin Symphony Strings.
The added dynamic layer FFF for brass sounds rather strange. It's somehow unnatural, or something ... This is especially audible with close microphones. Panorama often walks, which makes close microphones unused. At least for now. I haven't looked at WoodWind yet


----------



## Hendrixon

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody have extremely slow downloads? Bought the entire collection and trying to download Brass, but it is telling me 7 hours for 1 instrument.


Could be your ISP traffic shaping your bandwidth.
I downloaded BB maybe 2 hours after it was available, when probably many ppl also did, I got it at @200Mbps, couple of hours later also downloaded BSS @200Mbps.
I'm in Israel, didn't check from where the data streams came (EU or US).


----------



## easyrider

Getsumen said:


> OT stuff may be considered expensive, but something like Berlin Strings for 240 Euros? (If someone has EDU discount) Are you hearing yourself?



The EDU discount doesn't stack. So its 50 % off for everyone.


----------



## MaxOctane

Anyone know if it's possible to re-order the libraries in SINEplayer? I think I can edit the Library.json file, but would rather avoid that if possible.


----------



## Pianist

lettucehat said:


> The 10% is worth it if you're only looking at one or two (like to complete the set) and you need to get going now! I would do it if I were sure I only wanted one.


It is also the only way to go if you, like me, are still on Windows 7 since the Berlin SINE series port does not work on older versions than 1.0.7 which is at the same time the first version of SINE not working on Windows 7. But maybe one day I will give up on my superb working installation, update the OS and then the 10% (5%) SINE upgrade price will come handy.


----------



## Pianist

RonOrchComp said:


> Anyone know if the newly created BS will open on a previous version of SINE? 1.0.5, specifically.


Nope,
I asked OT about it, you need to have the newest version to run the Berlin series SINE port.


----------



## RogiervG

Awaiting walkthoughs, and indepth video reviews to be posted (hopefully with comparisons on the kontakt version too).


----------



## Hendrixon

MaxOctane said:


> Anyone know if it's possible to re-order the libraries in SINEplayer? I think I can edit the Library.json file, but would rather avoid that if possible


Re-Order?
At first I thought you want to buy them again, but then I saw the "edit json" part  
What do you want to do, change file locations or re-arrange the gui?


----------



## TintoL

JTB said:


> Yo! There is something lacking in the overall experience when working with BS and Special Bows 1+2.
> The software is clunky and the QC on the samples in second rate. Oh, and some nasty LEGATO (there I said it) transitions. This is why 840 euros, 8-9 years since its release is just too much.


you are right, it's been 8-9 years, I didn't grasp that. To my point about spitfire style product production in Steroids. Don't know how they pulled that off. In some cases, they were in hot waters with some products as they were releasing their new player. This is similar. 

I really think Sine can get there. 

OT, Gambatte....


----------



## Zanshin

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Anybody have extremely slow downloads? Bought the entire collection and trying to download Brass, but it is telling me 7 hours for 1 instrument.


Let us know how you get on once you finish the downloads


----------



## Jose7822

TintoL said:


> you are right, it's been 8-9 years, I didn't grasp that. To my point about spitfire style product production in Steroids. Don't know how they pulled that off. In some cases, they were in hot waters with some products as they were releasing their new player. This is similar.
> 
> I really think Sine can get there.
> 
> OT, Gambatte....



本当に頑張ってください！🙂👍


----------



## Casiquire

lettucehat said:


> So do commercial threads just not have rules about mentioning competitors anymore?


Edited my comment--didn't realize what thread this was


----------



## Michael Antrum

Can I just clarify something.

I have had BWW since a long time, and I have had that upgraded SINE FOC as promised.

If I purchase the other three packages BS,BP & BB they will cost 420 + 400 + 249 euro = 1069.00 (all ex VAT)

Someone who has none of the libraries at all will only pay 22 euro more ? There's no reduction on the bundle at all if you have any of the other libraries - Is that correct ?


----------



## Dementum

Michael Antrum said:


> Can I just clarify something.
> 
> I have had BWW since a long time, and I have had that upgraded SINE FOC as promised.
> 
> If I purchase the other three packages BS,BP & BB they will cost 420 + 400 + 249 euro = 1069.00 (all ex VAT)
> 
> Someone who has none of the libraries at all will only pay 22 euro more ? There's no reduction on the bundle at all if you have any of the other libraries - Is that correct ?


So I have BWW and I get the rest of the collection for 1019.61 + VAT. The collection itself is 1329 + VAT if you have nothing. I think thats kind of a fair reduction there.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Dementum said:


> So I have BWW and I get the rest of the collection for 1019.61 + VAT. The collection itself is 1329 + VAT if you have nothing. I think thats kind of a fair reduction there.


Ah, as I was logged in it had automatically made the reduction ! Thanks for explaining, and yes it does seem reasonable fair.

I am seriously thinking of going the Kontakt route though…..


----------



## easyrider

Michael Antrum said:


> Ah, as I was logged in it had automatically made the reduction ! Thanks for explaining, and yes it does seem reasonable fair.
> 
> I am seriously thinking of going the Kontakt route though…..


That would mean you won’t get any updates as OT as stated they will be doing with the SINE versions.


----------



## Sunny Schramm

@OrchestralTools

Are there plans for the near future for a "User"-Folder where we can save our articulation-lists "inside" Sine? Would be much more comfortable as saving to an external folder.

Example:





Would be also nice to have the most useful combinations as presets from you OT - the Pro´s 
If some of the users here would like to share their combinations for OT-Libraries - like Cory for the SStS - you´re welcome


----------



## dzilizzi

lettucehat said:


> So do commercial threads just not have rules about mentioning competitors anymore?


Yes and no. Mike has asked us to limit discussion involving competitors on the commercial threads, which makes general sense on a "new" library announcement. You want the company to be able to answer questions/complaints without reading through a bunch of comparisons. That's what Sample Talk is for. And a thread has already been created. Minimal discussion is acceptable but it was starting to get a bit more than that.


----------



## Getsumen

easyrider said:


> The EDU discount doesn't stack. So its 50 % off for everyone.


Nah they wanted it perma set to 400, so in that case edu would apply which would make the pricing absurd


----------



## Vik

muziksculp said:


> Here is a pic of the short articulations in BS (SINE) :


Which YouTube clip is that from?


----------



## dannesand

Vik said:


> Which YouTube clip is that from?


You can find it at Orchestral Tools' website. Navigate to the Berlin Strings page, then scroll down to the video box


----------



## Vik

dannesand said:


> You can find it at Orchestral Tools' website. Navigate to the Berlin Strings page, then scroll down to the video box


Thanks, I'll check – I was looking for it on YouTube only!


----------



## RogiervG

For those interrested:
@muziksculp has created a new thread that lists all the available Berlin Sine videos in an orderly fashion. The thread will be updated as new videos become available:
Orchestral Tools Main Berlin Orchestral Libraries : VIDEOS


----------



## jadedsean

Hey guys, i have both Berlin Perc and Berlin woodwinds, i am not sure what price it is for me as the products are not in my account even though i registed them on Native Access. Anyone know what the price is when you have two alrady? 

I also both the Timpani EXP and the Woodwing additional instruments but both serial numbers don't work in Native Access, not sure why though.


----------



## Michael Antrum

easyrider said:


> That would mean you won’t get any updates as OT as stated they will be doing with the SINE versions.


Well as far as I can see and hear, the Sine versions are the ones that need the updates. Some of the examples posted show there is a lot of work to be done.

I can always pay the fee and crossgrade to Sine later, but I’m also wondering if I might be better off waiting for a certain competitors upcoming orchestra.


----------



## Raphioli

Casiquire said:


> *If they were to fix up a few things,* i think they'd be totally worth the full price.


Yes, the first part is very important.

In the Sample Talk forum, there is a specific thread regarding the Pixelpoet trick.
The legatos of BS really sounds impressive with that trick.
I hope @OrchestralTools development team uses that as reference when they fix the legatos BS/BB in the SINE player. @Hendrik-Schwarzer

If that gets fixed, I think its worth the price as well.

[EDIT]
I'm wondering if there are any plans on letting users go under the hood like in Kontakt but for the SINE player.
Then users can also dive in and possibly come up with a fix and even improve legatos, like Pixelpoet did in Kontakt.
Please add a cogwheel like Kontakt and let users go under the hood in SINE. Thx


----------



## Casiquire

Raphioli said:


> Yes, the first part is very important.
> 
> In the Sample Talk forum, there is a specific thread regarding the Pixelpoet trick.
> The legatos of BS really sounds impressive with that trick.
> I hope @OrchestralTools development team uses that as reference when they fix the legatos BS/BB in the SINE player. @Hendrik-Schwarzer
> 
> If that gets fixed, I think its worth the price as well.
> 
> [EDIT]
> I'm wondering if there are any plans on letting users go under the hood like in Kontakt but for the SINE player.
> Then users can also dive in and possibly come up with a fix and even improve legatos, like Pixelpoet did in Kontakt.
> Please add a cogwheel like Kontakt and let users go under the hood in SINE. Thx


I agree completely. I don't think the SINE instruments sound "bad", just "not as good". My current setup is all-kontakt plus the legato trick, the brass in both kontakt and SINE for the dynamic layer and I'll see if there's one that i just keep going back to over the other


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I agree completely. I don't think the SINE instruments sound "bad", just "not as good". My current setup is all-kontakt plus the legato trick, the brass in both kontakt and SINE for the dynamic layer and I'll see if there's one that i just keep going back to over the other


It would be great if Orchestral Tools is able to update the SINE versions of Berlin Main Orc. Libraries Legatos to have a similar Legato that the Pixelpoet trick in Kontakt accomplishes. I wonder if that is something they can even offer as a user controllable parameter, that we can use to adjust the legatos to taste. 

Does the Pixelpoet trick pull the Legato starts earlier than they were programmed in the standard patches, to make longer transitions, since their start times are earlier ?


----------



## jbuhler

jadedsean said:


> Hey guys, i have both Berlin Perc and Berlin woodwinds, i am not sure what price it is for me as the products are not in my account even though i registed them on Native Access. Anyone know what the price is when you have two alrady?
> 
> I also both the Timpani EXP and the Woodwing additional instruments but both serial numbers don't work in Native Access, not sure why though.


You need to register the Kontakt serial numbers in Sine (add them under my licenses) then you will see the correct pricing for the bundle taking into account what you already have.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> It would be great if Orchestral Tools is able to update the SINE versions of Berlin Main Orc. Libraries Legatos to have a similar Legato that the Pixelpoet trick in Kontakt accomplishes. I wonder if that is something they can even offer as a user controllable parameter, that we can use to adjust the legatos to taste.
> 
> Does the Pixelpoet trick pull the Legato starts earlier than they were programmed in the standard patches, to make longer transitions, since their start times are earlier ?


I believe so. I think it sounds so different because of two things that work together: one, you hear more of the transition, so you get a little more of the expression from the player. But two, the transition itself is less obstructed by the fade-out of the previous note.


----------



## jadedsean

jbuhler said:


> You need to register the Kontakt serial numbers in Sine (add them under my licenses) then you will see the correct pricing for the bundle taking into account what you already have.


Yes i tried that with my Woodwind library but its seems to not work, note, i have BWW Legacy. This is most likley the reason.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I believe so. I think it sounds so different because of two things that work together: one, you hear more of the transition, so you get a little more of the expression from the player. But two, the transition itself is less obstructed by the fade-out of the previous note.


THANKS for the explanation.  

Now if OT can add this type of functionality to SINE via a knob/slider that can be even assigned to a CC# Controller. in an upcoming Update of SINE, That would be awesome. 

@OrchestralTools ,

I hope you are reading these posts, and taking notes about the Legatos, and will seriously look into implementing this type of feature in a furture SINE update. (THANKS in Advance).


----------



## muziksculp

jadedsean said:


> Yes i tried that with my Woodwind library but its seems to not work, note, i have BWW Legacy. This is most likley the reason.


You need to input the Download Code OT emailed you for REVIVE, the Legacy NI serial for BWW will not work.


----------



## artomatic

I'm wondering how many owners of BS also bought the Special Bows/First Chairs?


----------



## muziksculp

artomatic said:


> I'm wondering how many owners of BS also bought the Special Bows/First Chairs?


You will need to have access to OT's sales database to get that info.


----------



## Hendrixon

artomatic said:


> I'm wondering how many owners of BS also bought the Special Bows/First Chairs?


I didn't, I think I was still licking my wounds from buying the whole Berlin


----------



## jbuhler

artomatic said:


> I'm wondering how many owners of BS also bought the Special Bows/First Chairs?


I have all of them, and BSS as well.


----------



## Hendrixon

jbuhler said:


> I have all of them, and BSS as well.


AH HA!
That proves you are a rabid OT fanboy!
Disgusting...


----------



## jbuhler

Hendrixon said:


> AH HA!
> That proves you are a rabid OT fanboy!
> Disgusting...


You are so right. I've blown my cover yet again!


----------



## Casiquire

artomatic said:


> I'm wondering how many owners of BS also bought the Special Bows/First Chairs?


I own the special bows but held off on the first chairs after hearing...things. i might be more inclined to pick them up just to use as first chairs for extra detail but BS is already so detailed that it's really not necessary.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I couldn't find a detailed manual for the SINE versions, but maybe somebody knows the answer to this. For Woodwinds, in Kontakt, the default legato patch had both the soft and immediate attack option already in there, scripted to respect velocity. For SINE, if I load the Sustain+Legato patch, that only seems to have the soft attack. Do I need to manually setup the polymap to create a similar patch? Same question for stuff like strings with fingered vs. slurred legato.


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> I own the special bows but held off on the first chairs after hearing...things. i might be more inclined to pick them up just to use as first chairs for extra detail but BS is already so detailed that it's really not necessary.


I'm interested in trying the FCs with BS, now that BS has been ported. As soloists, even spot soloists, I've not been especially happy with the FCs and prefer other instruments for this role in orchestral settings.



ALittleNightMusic said:


> I couldn't find a detailed manual for the SINE versions, but maybe somebody knows the answer to this. For Woodwinds, in Kontakt, the default legato patch had both the soft and immediate attack option already in there, scripted to respect velocity. For SINE, if I load the Sustain+Legato patch, that only seems to have the soft attack. Do I need to manually setup the polymap to create a similar patch? Same question for stuff like strings with fingered vs. slurred legato.


You can attach the legato to the sustains accented, for instance, and then the initial note of legato sequence will play attacked and the rest legato. To choose the sustain type with velocity, you'd have to set it up with Polymap. I haven't really worked this way but in just setting it up now the transitions between the types seem like they will take some practice working the modwheel and the velocity to get everything to fit together right.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I couldn't find a detailed manual for the SINE versions, but maybe somebody knows the answer to this. For Woodwinds, in Kontakt, the default legato patch had both the soft and immediate attack option already in there, scripted to respect velocity. For SINE, if I load the Sustain+Legato patch, that only seems to have the soft attack. Do I need to manually setup the polymap to create a similar patch? Same question for stuff like strings with fingered vs. slurred legato.


Yes, you would need to setup a Polymap, set with "Switch" and "Velocity". But this method remains problematic when your Polymap is made of legato articulations where the legato type responds to...velocity 

I would personally setup the Polymap to respond to a CC instead, but that's far less intuitive to play.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Yes, you would need to setup a Polymap, set with "Switch" and "Velocity". But this method remains problematic when your Polymap is made of legato articulations where the legato type responds to...velocity


Ah does it not work correctly if both articulations in the polymap have legato toggled on for them (and the legato is setup to switch between normal and runs based on playing speed)?


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ah does it not work correctly if both articulations in the polymap have legato toggled on for them (and the legato is setup to switch between normal and runs based on playing speed)?


When the legato type is based on playing speed, I can't see any problem, but what about these new Berlin Brass articulations for instance ?


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Yes, you would need to setup a Polymap, set with "Switch" and "Velocity". But this method remains problematic when your Polymap is made of legato articulations where the legato type responds to...velocity
> 
> I would personally setup the Polymap to respond to a CC instead, but that's far less intuitive to play.


You can turn the legato response to velocity off though by designating both as the same legato type, or by setting your break point in the Polymap low enough that effectively you have a third articulation type loaded, e.g., low velocity = sustain fingered, medium velocity = accented sustain slurred, high velocity = accented sustain portamento.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> When the legato type is based on playing speed, I can't see any problem, but what about these new Berlin Brass articulations for instance ?


Ah right - but to a certain extent, that is already setup to have an attack based on velocity then. A polymap can still be setup but probably need to use another CC to modify the attack (similar to how I would set it up in Synchron Player).


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

jbuhler said:


> You can turn the legato response to velocity off though by designating both as the same legato type, or by setting your break point in the Polymap low enough that effectively you have a third articulation type loaded, e.g., low velocity = sustain fingered, medium velocity = accented sustain slurred, high velocity = accented sustain portamento.


Yes, that's what I've done with BWW Soloists but I still think it's a bit cumbersome...


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> When the legato type is based on playing speed, I can't see any problem, but what about these new Berlin Brass articulations for instance ?


You can also load multiple instances of the articulation and load those with different legatos and bring them all into polymap. It would likely get confusing and convoluted in part because you can't rename the patch names, but functionally you should be able to do it.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Ah right - but to a certain extent, that is already setup to have an attack based on velocity then. A polymap can still be setup but probably need to use another CC to modify the attack (similar to how I would set it up in Synchron Player).


Maybe I'm not following, but in this exemple these are legato types, not attack types.
If I set my Polymap to Velocity so it can switch between Soft, Immediate and Accented sustains, and each of these sustains react to velocity for Slurred or Retongued legato, how do I get a retongued legato on a Soft sustain 

But yes, the CC solution to handle attack types is probably the best solution!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

jbuhler said:


> You can also load multiple instances of the articulation and load those with different legatos and bring them all into polymap. It would likely get confusing and convoluted in part because you can't rename the patch names, but functionally you should be able to do it.


Looks familiar ?


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Yes, that's what I've done with BWW Soloists but I still think it's a bit cumbersome...


It's definitely cumbersome, but duplicating the accented sustain and giving one of them fingered legato and the other slurred and lowering the velocity for the first accented sustain to be triggered improved playability for some reason.


----------



## jononotbono

If someone already owns any of the Berlin libraries, is it a free to use the Sine versions? I have Berlin Strings and Winds main (kontakt versions). I could perhaps do a comparison video (if I don't have to pay to upgrade and if there's any space on my last SSD).


----------



## jbuhler

jononotbono said:


> If someone already owns any of the Berlin libraries, is it a free to use the Sine versions? I have Berlin Strings and Winds main (kontakt versions). I could perhaps do a comparison video (if I don't have to pay to upgrade and if there's any space on my last SSD).


Yes, they are free to current owners of the Kontakt libraries. You have to enter your serial number into Sine under the My Licenses tab and then the Sine versions will be available. But you also have to have Sine 1.0.7 installed to download the Berlin Mains libraries.


----------



## Vik

artomatic said:


> I'm wondering how many owners of BS also bought the Special Bows/First Chairs?


In this poll, 41 people voted for BS as one if the libraries they were using, and 31 voted for the Special Bows. If three out of 4 BS users use the Special Bows, that's a lot of users.


----------



## jadedsean

jononotbono said:


> If someone already owns any of the Berlin libraries, is it a free to use the Sine versions? I have Berlin Strings and Winds main (kontakt versions). I could perhaps do a comparison video (if I don't have to pay to upgrade and if there's any space on my last SSD).


You need to have Revive however, otherwise you have to crossgrade and then pay 10% of the overall price of said library which i belive comes to 165 euros, pounds i am not sure of.


----------



## LostintheBardo

jbuhler said:


> Yes, they are free to current owners of the Kontakt libraries. You have to enter your serial number into Sine under the My Licenses tab and then the Sine versions will be available. But you also have to have Sine 1.0.7 installed to download the Berlin Mains libraries.


Weirdly enough SINE didn't make me re-enter my serial number for BWW which I had with Kontakt already. Weird.


----------



## jononotbono

jbuhler said:


> Yes, they are free to current owners of the Kontakt libraries. You have to enter your serial number into Sine under the My Licenses tab and then the Sine versions will be available. But you also have to have Sine 1.0.7 installed to download the Berlin Mains libraries.


I have just done that and now the Licences are showing which is nice.

Really torn about this sale. I really want to get Brass and Perc but honestly, until the Sine play can actually control Mic faders (and the controls) with CCs I just don't want to spend any money until this basic functionality is implemented. Love the sounds and all the libraries I own from them but yeah, having to constantly open up VEPro to change a mic or tweak a control instead of just using my Touch controller or hardware faders? It's been almost 2 years since release? Really surprised this hasn't been sorted yet.

Might check out Berlin Strings Main in Sine but honestly, I can't see myself using it until at least what I have mentioned is sorted. I mean what are the benefits of the SINE version when you already have the Kontakt version?


----------



## easyrider

jononotbono said:


> I mean what are the benefits of the SINE version when you already have the Kontakt version?


Future Updates


----------



## jononotbono

easyrider said:


> Future Updates


Ok. I look forward to them. When will they be? "In the future". 😂


----------



## jbuhler

jononotbono said:


> "In the future".


An optimist? Far in the future. 

I agree with you that it is very strange that OT hasn't made fader control and automation a high priority. It doesn't seem like it would be very hard to implement.


----------



## Casiquire

Does SINE allow multiple outputs? Then you could just automate the mics that way


----------



## jononotbono

Casiquire said:


> Does SINE allow multiple outputs? Then you could just automate the mics that way


I'm not looking for workarounds. I'm looking for promised features. Basic features promised to be implemented by OT themselves.


----------



## Casiquire

jononotbono said:


> I'm not looking for workarounds. I'm looking for promised features. Basic features promised to be implemented by OT themselves.


I get that. But I'm being practical lol. Does SINE support that? I haven't had much opportunity to test it out.


----------



## jononotbono

jbuhler said:


> An optimist? Far in the future.
> 
> I agree with you that it is very strange that OT hasn't made fader control and automation a high priority. It doesn't seem like it would be very hard to implement.


I bought JXLB, participated in his private launch video and even JXL has demonstrated (in many videos) he uses Close, Mid and Far mic positions on his JLCooperfader Master Pro fader unit with every library (that can be) uniformed for instant control. This is why I couldn't believe you can't control Mics by using CCs even with his own Brass library! I understand coding stuff can be a mountain of work but I just feel this is a massively important aspect of a sample library. Being able to control it.

Anyway... 

What's the FFF layer in Sine Berlin Brass?


----------



## jononotbono

Casiquire said:


> I get that. But I'm being practical lol. Does SINE support that? I haven't had much opportunity to test it out.


You can route, for example, in JXL Brass all mics to physical audio outputs which is fantastic especially if you want to use these libraries in an immersive setup. So if you wanted to do this "practical" work around, you would have to set up 16 Generic Remotes in Cubase, and then use a "selected Track" option in the Cubase Generic Remotes section that would then control the output levels of those 16 audio outputs. This is just for Trumpets a6. Now do all of that again for every patch. There are 15 instruments in JXL Brass. That's 15 x 16 Physical outputs. 240 Physical outputs and of which would need to be set up in Generic Remotes as they have to be controlled individually. I'm starting to get the sweats just thinking about this. Not for me man. 😂

Just a right click, midi learn, move fader. Done.


----------



## Casiquire

jononotbono said:


> You can route, for example, in JXL Brass all mics to physical audio outputs which is fantastic especially if you want to use these libraries in an immersive setup. So if you wanted to do this "practical" work around, you would have to set up 16 Generic Remotes in Cubase, and then use a "selected Track" option in the Cubase Generic Remotes section that would then control the output levels of those 16 audio outputs. This is just for Trumpets a6. Now do all of that again for every patch. There are 15 instruments in JXL Brass. That's 15 x 16 Physical outputs. 240 Physical outputs and of which would need to be set up in Generic Remotes as they have to be controlled individually. I'm starting to get the sweats just thinking about this. Not for me man. 😂
> 
> Just a right click, midi learn, move fader. Done.


That sounds significantly more complicated than what I'm imagining...are you thinking of automating a different mic setup for each individual track and each individual instrument? What I'm thinking is i can have each section route to its own set of mic tracks, so that's a maximum of sixteen tracks (since I'm probably not mixing more than four mics anyway, times four orchestral sections) and that's pretty practical imo.


----------



## studioj

Berlin Strings on Sine: Am I correct that because they placed "tremolos" in a different instrument group than "Longs and Shorts" that it is impossible to create an exclusive switching group with these articulations (for use on a single track) or to polymap between sustains and trems for instance? Or am I missing something? Thanks to anyone who has started to set these up.






adding - I suppose with Logic articulation sets or maybe expression maps etc one could use MIDI channels with KS to get these on a single track anyway... but I am setting these up in Pro Tools right now. 
But this still means no polymap right?


----------



## jononotbono

Casiquire said:


> That sounds significantly more complicated than what I'm imagining...are you thinking of automating a different mic setup for each individual track and each individual instrument?


I'm not thinking about doing anything. I just want my midi faders and hardware faders to midi learn the mic positions (and be able to midi learn all controls) and that's it. Its so simple. Just literally use Kontakt, midi learn. Job done. There are so many ways of working, so many options of how you want to route stuff in the DAW etc. What I said above is a way of being to control every mic via faders and not anything I would ever do. It was just an example. etc. Its endless. I just want Sine to be updated instead of new libraries being released.

Anyway, I feel this is now really derailing the excitement of the thread which is the 50% off Berlin Sale and it's now on Sine. Get your bank cards out 😂


----------



## muziksculp

I would like to see MIDI learn added for the Mic Faders as well.

Meanwhile, I use my DAW's Host Volume Automation to do that. A bit more time consuming to setup, but doable.

Here a short video showing it in action, no audio just video demo.

View attachment SINE MIC AUTOMA Host Volume.mp4


----------



## Casiquire

jononotbono said:


> I'm not thinking about doing anything. I just want my midi faders and hardware faders to midi learn the mic positions (and be able to midi learn all controls) and that's it. Its so simple. Just literally use Kontakt, midi learn. Job done. There are so many ways of working, so many options of how you want to route stuff in the DAW etc. What I said above is a way of being to control every mic via faders and not anything I would ever do. It was just an example. etc. Its endless. I just want Sine to be updated instead of new libraries being released.
> 
> Anyway, I feel this is now really derailing the excitement of the thread which is the 50% off Berlin Sale and it's now on Sine. Get your bank cards out 😂


I'm still on kontakt. I agree that they'll need to give people a reason to go with SINE and the only one so far is SSD space. That's really not enough imo.


----------



## jbuhler

studioj said:


> Berlin Strings on Sine: Am I correct that because they placed "tremolos" in a different instrument group than "Longs and Shorts" that it is impossible to create an exclusive switching group with these articulations (for use on a single track) or to polymap between sustains and trems for instance? Or am I missing something? Thanks to anyone who has started to set these up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adding - I suppose with Logic articulation sets or maybe expression maps etc one could use MIDI channels with KS to get these on a single track anyway... but I am setting these up in Pro Tools right now.
> But this still means no polymap right?


Yes, this seems correct and a MAJOR oversight. I‘m less concerned about the keyswitch issue which can be dealt with with articulation sets or expression maps, but there is now no way to morph between trem and ord, one of things OT says the the polymap is convenient for. You will have to set up two tracks to do it or at least put them on different midi channels and manage the fades manually with faders set to different midi channels. (I will likely load them into Unify and get this kind of functionality that way.)


----------



## Zanshin

Casiquire said:


> I'm still on kontakt. I agree that they'll need to give people a reason to go with SINE and the only one so far is SSD space. That's really not enough imo.


Bundle pricing is the other consideration. But if you are in that deep, what’s a few more hundred euros.


----------



## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> Bundle pricing is the other consideration. But if you are in that deep, what’s a few more hundred euros.


I'm a little less affected there because for me, the difference between buying the strings for Kontakt and completing my bundle was like twenty bucks. The pricing structure is unclear lol


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> I'm still on kontakt. I agree that they'll need to give people a reason to go with SINE and the only one so far is SSD space. That's really not enough imo.


functionality for articulation sets/expression maps is better in Sine. I also don’t think you have the same ability to swap about legatos in Kontakt, which is very easy in Sine, though with Kontakt you do get the pixelpoet trick for more control over the legato. In general everything is more straightforward in Sine but that comes with a loss of tweakability.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

Hey Guys, thanks again for all your feedback.

Here are some thoughts and comparisons regarding the legato of the Berlin Series in SINE.




Have a nice weekend everyone!

Best,
Hendrik


----------



## jbuhler

JTB said:


> I'm pretty sure you can drag whichever articulations you want in to your arts. list regardless of which folder they appear in.


Nope. i seem to recollect you used to be able to do this, but it doesn’t work with Berlin Strings. I didn’t check if this is generally true now for all Sine libraries.


----------



## studioj

JTB said:


> I'm pretty sure you can drag whichever articulations you want in to your arts. list regardless of which folder they appear in.


It would be nice, but you can't combine articulations across different "instruments"... so if the articulation isn't in the same group, it can't be polymapped from what I can tell. And unfortunately Trems are in a different group (Ornaments) from sustains (Longs and Shorts).


----------



## Jose7822

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hey Guys, thanks again for all your feedback.
> 
> Here are some thoughts and comparisons regarding the legato of the Berlin Series in SINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik




In this legato comparison video the sound quality of the samples is clearer in the SINE version. The Kontakt patches sometimes sound a tiny bit less defined. Personally I liked the SINE version of the patches that were demonstrated here, but I’m down for more improvements when possible of course.

Thanks for making this video!!


----------



## Casiquire

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hey Guys, thanks again for all your feedback.
> 
> Here are some thoughts and comparisons regarding the legato of the Berlin Series in SINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik



I appreciate the video, but it doesn't address the flexibility that the wrench offers in kontakt. What are the odds of us getting a tool in SINE that lets us push transitions back so we hear more of the transition and get that improved clarity, at the cost of a bit more delay? It's quite a difference


----------



## Vik

Casiquire said:


> What are the odds of us getting a tool in SINE that lets us push transitions back so we hear more of the transition and get that improved clarity, at the cost of a bit more delay?


Wouldn't it be better to bake user control of these parameters into the actual GUI?


----------



## tim727

Has there been any word on an estimate for SINE conversion for Metropolis Ark 4 and Berlin Harps?


----------



## Casiquire

Vik said:


> Wouldn't it be better to bake user control of these parameters into the actual GUI?


I don't see how that differs from what i said.


----------



## Hendrixon

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hey Guys, thanks again for all your feedback.
> 
> Here are some thoughts and comparisons regarding the legato of the Berlin Series in SINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik



Hendrik,

Much respect for doing these videos and engaging with us OCD crowd  
And 100x thank you for the added velocity layers in BB, I'm sure it was an enormous project to pull.
Even though I was afraid you will record an FFFFFF layer (like in the JXL Cimbassi), you guys did a GREAT job in recording a "next up" level that dynamic transitions very well.

Cheers!

p.s. Is it true that jbuhler is on your payroll? man its so obvious!


----------



## Vik

Casiquire said:


> I don't see how that differs from what i said.


In that case, we agree!  I was thinking of the 'wrench' you mentioned earlier, and (mis-)interpreted that as a Kontakt-like way to be able to go in and edit stuff manually as opposed to adding mure user control into the existing GUI.

---

I'm generally curious about the various ways that the Sine version of BS offer a simpler UI than the Kontakt version does. 

For instance (anyone?): what's the workflow when you want to use the 'full legato' options in, say V1, and a few notes with tremolo?


----------



## Casiquire

Vik said:


> In that case, we agree!  I was thinking of the 'wrench' you mentioned earlier, and (mis-)interpreted that as a Kontakt-like way to be able to go in and edit stuff manually as opposed to adding mure user control into the existing GUI.
> 
> ---
> 
> I'm generally curious about the various ways that the Sine version of BS offer a simpler UI than the Kontakt version does.
> 
> For instance (anyone?): what's the workflow when you want to use the 'full legato' options in, say V1, and a few notes with tremolo?


Oh gotcha! Yeah I'm fine with it sitting right there in the UI. 

As for the second part, are you referring to SINE or Kontakt?


----------



## Vik

I'm curious about how the Sine version works – I read somewhere, some years ago, that the reason some string libraries couldn't combine their best legato options with the ability to switch to other articulations on the same page (say, in the main window) was due to some limitations in Kontakt. I hope this is improved now when OT and other main players have their own sample players.

In Kontakt, with strong enough single core performance, one could open two (or more) instance of Kontakt on the same track, and thereby have a workaround for 'full legato' and 'everything else'. AFAIK Sine doesn't offer that?


----------



## Aitcpiano

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hey Guys, thanks again for all your feedback.
> 
> Here are some thoughts and comparisons regarding the legato of the Berlin Series in SINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik



Just wondering if purchases of the full berlin series main collection bundle will also give you the berlin orchestra for free with it? I think I remember reading that you would be giving the berlin orchestra to owners of the main berlin series?


----------



## jbuhler

Vik said:


> In that case, we agree!  I was thinking of the 'wrench' you mentioned earlier, and (mis-)interpreted that as a Kontakt-like way to be able to go in and edit stuff manually as opposed to adding mure user control into the existing GUI.
> 
> ---
> 
> I'm generally curious about the various ways that the Sine version of BS offer a simpler UI than the Kontakt version does.
> 
> For instance (anyone?): what's the workflow when you want to use the 'full legato' options in, say V1, and a few notes with tremolo?


I’m not sure that would be much different. But if you want to load all the articulations of the first violins into a single track and use articulation sets or expression maps to select articulations it would be more straightforward in Sine than Kontakt, because filling in the articulations in Capsule isn’t straightforward (only some articulations are available in particular instances). 

Sine also lets you choose the legato you want to connect nearly all the longs. In Kontakt you could add legato to most longs as well, but you couldn’t designate which legato would be used. The runs legato is also part of an adaptive system triggered by speed in Sine.


----------



## lettucehat

So has anyone brought up how Time Macro/Micro are shown in Sine in one of the recent videos (maybe the one explaining legato)? That's nice. A Black Friday proper surprise?


----------



## dhmusic

jbuhler said:


> I’m not sure that would be much different. But if you want to load all the articulations of the first violins into a single track and use articulation sets or expression maps to select articulations it would be more straightforward in Sine than Kontakt, because filling in the articulations in Capsule isn’t straightforward (only some articulations are available in particular instances).
> 
> Sine also lets you choose the legato you want to connect nearly all the longs. In Kontakt you could add legato to most longs as well, but you couldn’t designate which legato would be used. The runs legato is also part of an adaptive system triggered by speed in Sine.


You can actually choose the legato type in the multis in kontakt! When selecting an articulation there's a little wrench icon under the legato on/off symbol. There you can choose which speed triggers your choice of legato. So if you only want portamento you can assign it to each speed.


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> I’m not sure that would be much different. But if you want to load all the articulations of the first violins into a single track and use articulation sets or expression maps to select articulations it would be more straightforward in Sine than Kontakt, because filling in the articulations in Capsule isn’t straightforward (only some articulations are available in particular instances).
> 
> Sine also lets you choose the legato you want to connect nearly all the longs. In Kontakt you could add legato to most longs as well, but you couldn’t designate which legato would be used. The runs legato is also part of an adaptive system triggered by speed in Sine.


Capsule let you pick which transitions too. There's a mini wrench button right under the Legato enable button


----------



## dhmusic

Casiquire said:


> Capsule let you pick which transitions too. There's a mini wrench button right under the Legato enable button


lol


----------



## jbuhler

dhmusic said:


> You can actually choose the legato type in the multis in kontakt! When selecting an articulation there's a little wrench icon under the legato on/off symbol. There you can choose which speed triggers your choice of legato. So if you only want portamento you can assign it to each speed.





Casiquire said:


> Capsule let you pick which transitions too. There's a mini wrench button right under the Legato enable button


Good to know and it’s been a long time since I’ve used the Kontakt version of the library with any regularity because it took a long time to program and because of its RAM demands.


----------



## TintoL

Thanks to Hendrik for creating the legato video. Quite informative.

Honestly the video has an important disparity with what has been posted by users here. I don't hear in Hendrik's video those bad transitions posted by users. If any, the Kontakt horn struggles with runs in comparison.

Thanks OT for engaging the community directly.


----------



## jbuhler

TintoL said:


> Thanks to Hendrik for creating the legato video. Quite informative.
> 
> Honestly the video has an important disparity with what has been posted by users here. I don't hear in Hendrik's video those bad transitions posted by users. If any, the Kontakt horn struggles with runs in comparison.
> 
> Thanks OT for engaging the community directly.


Agreed, they sounded very good. But there’s an expressive potential in the Kontakt version of the horn that is lost in the Sine version because the latter has the higher dynamic layer. It’s interesting, and really I like both as they have different expressive potential and I regret to some extent that the one is displacing the other.


----------



## Zanshin

jbuhler said:


> Agreed, they sounded very good. But there’s an expressive potential in the Kontakt version of the horn that is lost in the Sine version because the latter has the higher dynamic layer. It’s interesting, and really I like both as they have different expressive potential and I regret to some extent that the one is displacing the other.


Can’t you just disable the top dynamic in sine and get the kontak range?


----------



## Scalms

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hey Guys, thanks again for all your feedback.
> 
> Here are some thoughts and comparisons regarding the legato of the Berlin Series in SINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik



thanks for putting this video together, it was helpful.

Was the mic setup the exact same between Kontakt and Sine? Sine sounded a bit more up-front with less reverb, especially the Brass FF which sounded more up-close.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

I just realised Berlin Orchestra you get free for having all the 4 libraries is the same thing...cause it's curated from the Berlin series :/ Here I thought I got some value


----------



## jbuhler

Zanshin said:


> Can’t you just disable the top dynamic in sine and get the kontak range?


Maybe? You can certainly turn off the top layer, but the instrument has been scripted for the top layer so I doubt it is shaped the same way. Certainly my experience with turning off layers of other Sine instruments is that they sound different from an instrument that is designed with fewer layers. But I don’t have Berlin Brass so I can’t test it.


----------



## TintoL

jbuhler said:


> Agreed, they sounded very good. But there’s an expressive potential in the Kontakt version of the horn that is lost in the Sine version because the latter has the higher dynamic layer. It’s interesting, and really I like both as they have different expressive potential and I regret to some extent that the one is displacing the other.


I did notice that. It sounds like kontakt and Sine are needed depending on the case of a piece. It kind of makes sense as there will me more layers inside the same cc range because of the FF layer.


----------



## dzilizzi

FrozenIcicle said:


> I just realised Berlin Orchestra you get free for having all the 4 libraries is the same thing...cause it's curated from the Berlin series :/ Here I thought I got some value


People wanted it because it is better for laptops or not so good systems, not so much because it is something different/better.


----------



## Zanshin

jbuhler said:


> Maybe? You can certainly turn off the top layer, but the instrument has been scripted for the top layer so I doubt it is shaped the same way. Certainly my experience with turning off layers of other Sine instruments is that they sound different from an instrument that is designed with fewer layers. But I don’t have Berlin Brass so I can’t test it.


Yeah, it was a genuine question. I'm an OT Padawan lol. I have just a hand full of stuff really, but chunks of JXL Brass for example where I have turned off the top layer (because in JXL Brass it can get obnoxious haha).


----------



## FrozenIcicle

dzilizzi said:


> People wanted it because it is better for laptops or not so good systems, not so much because it is something different/better.


I thought that's what inspire was for lol DOesn't inspire also pull content from Berlin series?


----------



## Hendrixon

jbuhler said:


> Maybe? You can certainly turn off the top layer, but the instrument has been scripted for the top layer so I doubt it is shaped the same way. Certainly my experience with turning off layers of other Sine instruments is that they sound different from an instrument that is designed with fewer layers. But I don’t have Berlin Brass so I can’t test it.


Tried it with Horn 1 Legato, it does screw it up a little if trying lots of dynamic moves.
With sustains its fine.


----------



## dzilizzi

FrozenIcicle said:


> I thought that's what inspire was for lol DOesn't inspire also pull content from Berlin series?


Yes. But Berlin Berklee is special.


----------



## coprhead6

Berklee is switching from VSL to OT so they came up with this bundle to get students started with part writing. It’s not meant to replace Inspire.


----------



## Jose7822

Random question (sort of on topic though): 

Was JXL Brass renamed? For some reason I can’t find it on the OT website.


----------



## jbuhler

Jose7822 said:


> Random question (sort of on topic though):
> 
> Was JXL Brass renamed? For some reason I can’t find it on the OT website.


Yes. It's now Tom Holkenborg's Brass.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Jose7822 said:


> Random question (sort of on topic though):
> 
> Was JXL Brass renamed? For some reason I can’t find it on the OT website.


Yeah it’s now Tom holkenborg brass


----------



## Scalms

JXL Brass is way more catchier


----------



## jbuhler

Scalms said:


> JXL Brass is way more catchier


Wouldn't disagree with that! But I think for whatever reason Holkenborg wants to put JXL behind him.


----------



## Jose7822

Thanks guys! I wasn’t sure if they were the same or not.


----------



## dhmusic

jbuhler said:


> Wouldn't disagree with that! But I think for whatever reason Holkenborg wants to put JXL behind him.


..."Well, well, well if it isn't little Junkie ol' Tommy boy!", the men shouted as I got off the train.

I sighed and waved and smiled and did a silly little dance like I always did back in school when I found myself in uncomfortable situations. I guess even 35 years can't change some things...


----------



## MaxOctane

It used to be people went for JXL because of *fff*. I'd be curious to learn from people who have it and also the new Berlin Brass, how they compare now.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

MaxOctane said:


> It used to be people went for JXL because of *fff*. I'd be curious to learn from people who have it and also the new Berlin Brass, how they compare now.


Same


----------



## Drumdude2112

MaxOctane said:


> It used to be people went for JXL because of *fff*. I'd be curious to learn from people who have it and also the new Berlin Brass, how they compare now.


I have both . The new FFF in BB is great, and definitely makes it more versatile.Still they sound quite different….JXL (i agree the name
is WAY catchier) Is definitely more ‘epic’ and ‘cinematic’ sounding (not
that it doesnt do soft well cause i think it does) but BB has a more ‘symphonic’ sound to it ..very ‘noble’ and the BB trumpets flat out kill JXL trumpets (which i’m admittedly not a fan of ) its GREAT to have both tones and i’m thrilled with both , but yeah BB is definitely way more usable in more situations than it was with the new FFF layer but JXL still has that ‘larger then life tone’ though if thats what one wants (the 12 horn and 12 bones patches in particular)


----------



## tabulius

Yeah, JXL still sounds brighter and triple forte, and Berlin is more restrained and "traditional" if you will. It is a matter of taste really, what you are looking for.


----------



## muziksculp

@Hendrik-Schwarzer , @OrchestralTools ,

Why only one walkthrough video for the Berlin Strings (SINE) ?

Will there be more videos for BS (SINE) posted, that shows each section in more details ?

I really hope so, it makes no sense the Strings, imho. the most important section of the orchestra gets the least amount of videos.

Thanks.


----------



## muziksculp

@Hendrik-Schwarzer , @OrchestralTools ,

It would be great if you can add a slider to change the legato speed on the SINE GUI, so that the user can tweak it to taste.

This will deliver much more flexible legatos depending on the scenario at hand, or the user's taste for legato transitions. I hope this is something you can technically do, and offer via a SINE update in the future.

You will make a lot of SINE users very happy if you add this feature. Please look seriously into adding this.

THANKS


----------



## LostintheBardo

Anyone else finding SINE noticeably less harsh on RAM?


----------



## Casiquire

LostintheBardo said:


> Anyone else finding SINE noticeably less harsh on RAM?


The compression does wonders! The libraries take way less hard drive space and as a result also use less RAM


----------



## Sean Robin

@OrchestralTools will Berlin Symphonic Harps be ported, and if so when?


----------



## coprhead6

I'm assuming BWW on SINE does not come with the runs builder... That's a huge feature for me. Is there a way to delete all of the Kontakt Revive files while keeping legacy functional?


----------



## muziksculp

@OrchestralTools ,

Are the current audio demos for the Berlin Main Orchestra new demos, produced using the SINE player, or are they the older ones produced using the Kontakt versions ? 

Thanks.


----------



## Niv Schrieber

muziksculp said:


> @OrchestralTools ,
> 
> Are the current audio demos for the Berlin Main Orchestra new demos, produced using the SINE player, or are they the older ones produced using the Kontakt versions ?
> 
> Thanks.


I'm pretty sure they are the old ones using kontakt since they are old demos,used for several years already.


----------



## chrisav

@muziksculp I listened to a lot of the demos in the days before the Sine versions dropped and they're the exact same


----------



## Casiquire

xsubs said:


> @OrchestralTools will Berlin Symphonic Harps be ported, and if so when?


Eventually I'm sure, and they already did some work with them for Berklee so it might be sooner than some other libraries. In the meantime though if you have all the mains, you should also have access to the Berklee one, so you can download the harp in SINE already, just with one mic option


----------



## Niv Schrieber

Hey everyone, I just purchased the entire berlin line on sine. I don't own the kontakt versions, does someone else experience weird transitions while trying to perform runs with the strings? I don't know if it's a thing thats happening with the kontakt version as well, but playing around with the first Violins especially I can hear really weird transitions and noises while playing fast runs on my keyboard. Tried switching between fingered legato and slurred legato and it remains the same.


----------



## jbuhler

Niv Schrieber said:


> Hey everyone, I just purchased the entire berlin line on sine. I don't own the kontakt versions, does someone else experience weird transitions while trying to perform runs with the strings? I don't know if it's a thing thats happening with the kontakt version as well, but playing around with the first Violins especially I can hear really weird transitions and noises while playing fast runs on my keyboard. Tried switching between fingered legato and slurred legato and it remains the same.



They sound right to me. At least playing very fast runs in C major with just the basic sustains legato patch sounds about how I’d expect. If you are playing fast only the second legato slot will matter (it should say “runs.”


----------



## muziksculp

We also don't have the Sordino Feature for Berlin Strings. Is this going to be added in a future Update ? or are you planning on having a real Berlin sordino strings library expansion in the future ?


----------



## Evans

chrisav said:


> @muziksculp I listened to a lot of the demos in the days before the Sine versions dropped and they're the exact same


While I like this series, that's misleading of them. At the least, sloppy. At most, deceitful.

EDIT: And I'm not assuming it's an intention to deceive. My guess would be that it's a time factor, they forgot/didn't think of it, or something like that. I doubt they were rubbing their hands together like villains, thinking that they'd slip one by everybody.

But it does reflect poorly, because some people are seeing positive _and_ negative changes to these products in the conversion.


----------



## muziksculp

Evans said:


> While I like this series, that's misleading of them. At the least, sloppy. At most, deceitful.


I think they should make a note of that, and produce new demos using the SINE versions, it make no sense to show demos using another player/format.

I hope @OrchestralTools , is reading these posts, and I hope I'm not just wasting my time bringing this to their attention.


----------



## jbuhler

Evans said:


> While I like this series, that's misleading of them. At the least, sloppy. At most, deceitful.


I doubt they mean to be either misleading or deceitful. But the programming has changed, and according to their advertising it has changed significantly and for the better. But that still means that Sine won't yield the same midi renditions, so they should really commission new demos with the new programming, or have the previous demos updated.

On the other hand, this is broadly true of a lot of companies who have significantly updated their libraries to the extent that the original demos can no longer be completely replicated even though the underlying samples haven't changed much.


----------



## Evans

jbuhler said:


> I doubt they mean to be either misleading or deceitful.


Agreed, I'd bet money that there wasn't intent there. But if I run a stop sign I did not see, I'm still likely to get ticketed and need to swallow my pride and pay up.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Silly me, I just assumed that what I was hearing in the walkthrough videos was all newly rendered with Sine.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> Silly me, I just assumed that what I was hearing in the walkthrough videos was all newly rendered with Sine.


The new walkthroughs all feature Sine. (You can see the Sine player in the videos.) It's the demos on the website that all still seem to be the original Kontakt version.

The Berlin Woodwind Soloists is especially bad in this respect because I can't even get close to the demos with the Sine version. Of course I don't have the Kontakt version to test, so maybe that would be true if I had the Kontakt version too, but I suspect there is a big difference between the libraries (and the Kontakt version reportedly comes with the Teldex IR).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

@Hendrik-Schwarzer @OT_Tobias Please consider rethinking the "disabled" UI in the keyboard. As you can see from this screenshot, it makes it VERY difficult to quickly pick out which keys _are_ enabled for the patch because you can't see them in reference to the rest of the keyboard since all disabled keys are black.






Thanks!


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> The new walkthroughs all feature Sine. (You can see the Sine player in the videos.) It's the demos on the website that all still seem to be the original Kontakt version.
> 
> The Berlin Woodwind Soloists is especially bad in this respect because I can't even get close to the demos with the Sine version. Of course I don't have the Kontakt version to test, so maybe that would be true if I had the Kontakt version too, but I suspect there is a big difference between the libraries (and the Kontakt version reportedly comes with the Teldex IR).


Oh I see, I thought that the reference was to the new walkthroughs. 

Indeed, BWS does come with the Teldex IR in the Kontakt version. Techsupport told me as much. You can only hope that they will add it in to the Sine version. Though in its current state, I find it unusable, so I don't guess it matters much.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

"Unusable" looks a bit severe in the case of BWW Soloists... Some comparisons with the Kontakt version show that, surprise ! legato sounds better with Kontakt. But still, once you add a nice reverb to it, it becomes IMHO a perfectly capable library, which I've been using a lot. I'd be curious to hear how you guys are using it.


----------



## dhmusic

Jett Hitt said:


> Oh I see, I thought that the reference was to the new walkthroughs.
> 
> Indeed, BWS does come with the Teldex IR in the Kontakt version. Techsupport told me as much. You can only hope that they will add it in to the Sine version. Though in its current state, I find it unusable, so I don't guess it matters much.


Ohhh you should get the kontakt version. I don't know if they'll port the convolution. I can't remember why but it might not be an option for them

I think it comes with the nocturne series too btw


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> "Unusable" looks a bit severe in the case of BWW Soloists... Some comparisons with the Kontakt version show that, surprise ! legato sounds better with Kontakt. But still, once you add a nice reverb to it, it becomes IMHO a perfectly capable library, which I've been using a lot. I'd be curious to hear how you guys are using it.


Well, that's the problem, I can't seem to get it set up right, which as i understand it in the Kontakt version was easier because it came set up with their own IR. In any case, I use an ER reverb as an insert, and then add a tail with a send. I'm panning it into place. The basic sound is ok, but I find these instruments do not sit well with my other instruments, not just in terms of being soloists and so refusing to blend into the ensemble, but in terms of their sound, like refusing to sound anything like the same room no matter which ER or tail I'm using. Initially I thought it was user error, as I've said before, since I don't much work with dry studio samples, but then I got Duplex Saxes, which are very similar—same room and such, and didn't have these same issues at all. So now I don't know what to think.

Beyond the positioning issues, there are also issues with sloppy legato transitions where you hear the two samples being crossfaded together. It's been awhile since I made an attempt with the instruments, so it may take some time to locate the problems.

ETA: I also can't get the Sine versions to sound anything like the demos, which were made with the Kontakt version. If you have good advice about how to set up the instrument (ER amount, pan positioning, etc.) so that it sounds similar to the demos that would be great!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

jbuhler said:


> Well, that's the problem, I can't seem to get it set up right, which as i understand it in the Kontakt version was easier because it came set up with their own IR. In any case, I use an ER reverb as an insert, and then add a tail with a send. I'm panning it into place. The basic sound is ok, but I find these instruments do not sit well with my other instruments, not just in terms of being soloists and so refusing to blend into the ensemble, but in terms of their sound, like refusing to sound anything like the same room no matter which ER or tail I'm using. Initially I thought it was user error, as I've said before, since I don't much work with dry studio samples, but then I got Duplex Saxes, which are very similar—same room and such, and didn't have these same issues at all. So now I don't know what to think.
> 
> Beyond the positioning issues, there are also issues with sloppy legato transitions where you hear the two samples being crossfaded together. It's been awhile since I made an attempt with the instruments, so it may take some time to locate the problems.
> 
> ETA: I also can't get the Sine versions to sound anything like the demos, which were made with the Kontakt version. If you have good advice about how to set up the instrument (ER amount, pan positioning, etc.) so that it sounds similar to the demos that would be great!


Ah, my setup with them is super simple but works great, at least I hope it does  I'm using the library with Breeze 2 and Precedence. Breeze 2 happens to have a preset called something like "Precedence Link Berlin", which really looks like it has been tailored to emulate Teldex. It's one of those things yo "set and forget", which is perfect to me. 

About the sometimes missed transitions, I had the problem as well, like we discussed on another thread, when going from an articulation to another. The Polymap setup solves this. 

I'll try some exemples tomorrow, never really paid attention to the demos! But we'll see if I can get close to the tone, I hope so.


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Ah, my setup with them is super simple but works great, at least I hope it does  I'm using the library with Breeze 2 and Precedence. Breeze 2 happens to have a preset called something like "Precedence Link Berlin", which really looks like it has been tailored to emulate Teldex. It's one of those things yo "set and forget", which is perfect to me.
> 
> About the sometimes missed transitions, I had the problem as well, like we discussed on another thread, when going from an articulation to another. The Polymap setup solves this.
> 
> I'll try some exemples tomorrow, never really paid attention to the demos! But we'll see if I can get close to the tone, I hope so.


I really need to get something like Precedence, but the company doesn't seem very visible any longer and I've heard that some are having issues with the plugins on Big Sur and Monterey, and as far as I know the plugins were never really updated even for Catalina. (I'm on Catalina, but needing to update to Big Sur or Monterey in December.)


----------



## jcrosby

jbuhler said:


> I really need to get something like Precedence, but the company doesn't seem very visible any longer and I've heard that some are having issues with the plugins on Big Sur and Monterey, and as far as I know the plugins were never really updated even for Catalina. (I'm on Catalina, but needing to update to Big Sur or Monterey in December.)


It’s true. I’m still on Catalina and there are a few precedence GUI bugs, including not being able to save presets in the plug-in itself .

I emailed the developer and they had a piss poor attitude about any priority regarding updating them, even just for 10.15.

Unfortunately I’d recommend looking for another solution


----------



## jbuhler

jcrosby said:


> It’s true. I’m still on Catalina and there are a few precedence GUI bugs, including not being able to save presets in the plug-in itself .
> 
> I emailed the developer and they had a piss poor attitude about any priority regarding updating them, even just for 10.15.
> 
> Unfortunately I’d recommend looking for another solution


Any ideas for other options?


----------



## Zanshin

MIR Pro w/ studio and scoring room pack.


----------



## jbuhler

Zanshin said:


> MIR Pro w/ studio and scoring room pack.


Requires the E-Licensor, though, right? Maybe when VSL goes to iLok.


----------



## Zanshin

jbuhler said:


> Requires the E-Licensor, though, right? Maybe when VSL goes to iLok.


Yeah I think so, although I seem to remember the demo can use a soft e-licensor (but I don’t see the info about that on the website).

But yeah iLok will be nice


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I do hope OT prioritizes an improved purge in SINE. Having loaded the Berlin series into my template, the workflow is quite great (with expression maps), but it is brutal for each string section to take up like 2GB of RAM if you want all the articulations in your template. Once you start enabling brass, woodwinds, etc., it gets to be a lot of RAM usage.


----------



## dhmusic

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I do hope OT prioritizes an improved purge in SINE. Having loaded the Berlin series into my template, the workflow is quite great (with expression maps), but it is brutal for each string section to take up like 2GB of RAM if you want all the articulations in your template. Once you start enabling brass, woodwinds, etc., it gets to be a lot of RAM usage.


It's crazy to think in BSS 1 section is 9GB


----------



## ism

Normally I wouldn't look twice at a library without flautando.

And yet ... I've been of thinking it would be nice to have something a little more pedestrian to really bring out how great the Berlin Special Bows sound. And BS sounds like it might be just the thing.


----------



## dzilizzi

ism said:


> Normally I wouldn't look twice at a library without flautando.
> 
> And yes ... I've been of thinking it would be nice to have something a little more pedestrian to really bring out how great the Berlin Special Bows sound. And BS sounds like it might be just the thing.


Are we supposed to help talk you into this or help talk you out of this?


----------



## ism

dzilizzi said:


> Are we supposed to help talk you into this or help talk you out of this?


Open to both


----------



## jcrosby

jbuhler said:


> Any ideas for other options?


The only thing I know of that was quite similar was VSS2, but support on that appears to be dead in the water.

I've seen people suggest panagement, but I don use it and I'm not convinced it's all the similar. Same with DearVR, I just don't find it to be nearly as useful as actually panning things based on a stage-like array, and don't wind up with similar enough results...


----------



## jcrosby

jbuhler said:


> Requires the E-Licensor, though, right? Maybe when VSL goes to iLok.


BTW, MIR definitely is the closest, but I'd demo it first if considering it... I found it to be super crashy (on 10.15 myself), and I personally found the workflow to be just downright awkward. But worth a demo since you never know.


----------



## axb312

Zanshin said:


> Upgrade from Kontakt to Sine would be another 225 euro too (plus vat for some) (for strings, woods, brass)


WOW


----------



## Aitcpiano

axb312 said:


> WOW


Kontakt version should be free for new buyers of the Berlin Series Main Collection. Theirs no way I'd pay 1,329 for the bundle to then not have the Kontakt version or to buy all the Kontakt version and then have to pay a further 10% just to upgrade to SINE.


----------



## Jett Hitt

ism said:


> Normally I wouldn't look twice at a library without flautando.
> 
> And yet ... I've been of thinking it would be nice to have something a little more pedestrian to really bring out how great the Berlin Special Bows sound. And BS sounds like it might be just the thing.


You’ve got sul tasto in Special Bows, and there’s only a hair’s difference between it and flautando. I always thought the OT stuff was outrageously priced, and I would have never bought it. And then came StaffPad. It totally sold me on BS and OT in general.


----------



## ism

Jett Hitt said:


> You’ve got sul tasto in Special Bows, and there’s only a hair’s difference between it and flautando. I always thought the OT stuff was outrageously priced, and I would have never bought it. And then came StaffPad. It totally sold me on BS and OT in general.



The Special Bows even sometimes calls it’s sul tastos “flautandos”. I’m not sure that the lowest dynamics layer mightn’t even be an actual flautando performance. In any even, sample language isn’t always the same as musician language, so every library is different.

But whatever they are, they’re fabulous.


----------



## dzilizzi

ism said:


> Open to both


Well, if you don't want the full bundle, I would go for the Kontakt version at 50% off and pay the slight difference to get the Sine version. Based on the complaints I'm hearing, there is still some fixing that may need to be done for the Sine version. I haven't yet downloaded it because my VEP server computer is still Windows 7 and current Sine is not compatible. Which is fine as my VEP is currently messed up and sounds like it is trying to use the wifi connection instead of the cable. Don't you love computers? So I'm not sure how good I am at convincing. 

But it does sound good to me.


----------



## jbuhler

dzilizzi said:


> Well, if you don't want the full bundle, I would go for the Kontakt version at 50% off and pay the slight difference to get the Sine version. Based on the complaints I'm hearing, there is still some fixing that may need to be done for the Sine version. I haven't yet downloaded it because my VEP server computer is still Windows 7 and current Sine is not compatible. Which is fine as my VEP is currently messed up and sounds like it is trying to use the wifi connection instead of the cable. Don't you love computers? So I'm not sure how good I am at convincing.
> 
> But it does sound good to me.


Truth is the Kontakt versions badly need some repair work too, at least Berlin Strings did. And many of those issues were addressed in the update. So it’s more of a tradeoff and which is more suitable depends greatly on your workflow and how well Sine runs on your system. For me, the Sine versions are vastly superior, but i didn’t much use the Capsule functionality. Those who do use the Capsule functionality are likely to be disappointed in how limited the automation tools are in Sine.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

One more request for OT would be that for those of us who have legacy woodwinds (in addition to revive), it'd be great if the recorded run patches were included in a future update for SINE. They come in handy!


----------



## alchemist

I read that the legato wasn't as good in sine, but wow.. wasn't expecting it to be this bad.

Quick clip, Trumpet 1 close mic 1 - first kontakt then sine..

I turned off the FF layer in sine to make it equal. Definitely sticking with Kontakt.


----------



## dhmusic

alchemist said:


> I read that the legato wasn't as good in sine, but wow.. wasn't expecting it to be this bad.
> 
> Quick clip, Trumpet 1 close mic 1 - first kontakt then sine..
> 
> I turned off the FF layer in sine to make it equal. Definitely sticking with Kontakt.


You should post a comparison with the FF layer on. It isn't designed to work with that layer off and it really shouldn't sound like that. Try it and see how different it sounds.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

alchemist said:


> I read that the legato wasn't as good in sine, but wow.. wasn't expecting it to be this bad.
> 
> Quick clip, Trumpet 1 close mic 1 - first kontakt then sine..
> 
> I turned off the FF layer in sine to make it equal. Definitely sticking with Kontakt.


If you turn off dynamic layers in SINE, it breaks the legato - known issue that OT has mentioned here.


----------



## lettucehat

alchemist said:


> I read that the legato wasn't as good in sine, but wow.. wasn't expecting it to be this bad.
> 
> Quick clip, Trumpet 1 close mic 1 - first kontakt then sine..
> 
> I turned off the FF layer in sine to make it equal. Definitely sticking with Kontakt.


I don't have either yet - could this be a matter of having to choose legato type differently in Sine, based on need? Like using the playable runs type here (assuming that's not what you did)? Just spitballing.


----------



## dhmusic

ALittleNightMusic said:


> If you turn off dynamic layers in SINE, it breaks the legato - known issue that OT has mentioned here.


Did they confirm this here? I'm not with OT in case there's any confusion. Just haven't seen a post to reference


----------



## alchemist

dhmusic said:


> You should post a comparison with the FF layer on. It isn't designed to work with that layer off and it really shouldn't sound like that. Try it and see how different it sounds.


of course I tried it lol, it loads default with it turned on..

Here you go, FF layer on, still sounds horrific. 

one with modwheel at 65 for a similar sound to kontakt, one with modwheel at 127. First kontakt then sine again


----------



## dhmusic

alchemist said:


> of course I tried it lol, it loads default with it turned on..
> 
> Here you go, FF layer on, still sounds horrific.
> 
> one with modwheel at 65 for a similar sound to kontakt, one with modwheel at 127. First kontakt then sine again


Yup Sounds awful lmao. And that's not a dig at you. Something def needs to be ironed out in the upper dynamic.


----------



## Babe

alchemist said:


> I read that the legato wasn't as good in sine, but wow.. wasn't expecting it to be this bad.
> 
> Quick clip, Trumpet 1 close mic 1 - first kontakt then sine..
> 
> I turned off the FF layer in sine to make it equal. Definitely sticking with Kontakt.


The first note: In Sine, it has an accent. not so in Kontakt. Are these using the same art.?


----------



## alchemist

Babe said:


> The first note: In Sine, it has an accent. not so in Kontakt. Are these using the same art.?


in kontakt the legato patch does a soft attack if your velocity is under a certain threshold

here it is with the immedate attack, I think we're getting caught up in the little details instead of talking about the overall picture that sine needs a lot of improvement before it can replace kontakt. Right now it's not even worth the SSD real estate.


----------



## dhmusic

alchemist said:


> in kontakt the legato patch does a soft attack if your velocity is under a certain threshold
> 
> here it is with the immedate attack, I think we're getting caught up in the little details instead of talking about the overall picture that sine needs a lot of improvement before it can replace kontakt. Right now it's not even worth the SSD real estate.


I think even with improvements there are a ton of reasons you'd want to keep using the kontakt versions.

I still have to get my download sorted out. Til then here's the same example using Berlin Orchestra's mix mic trumpet one. Definitely better than whatever is going on with BBR SINE atm.

The left one is legato sus the other is legato marcato


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

alchemist said:


> in kontakt the legato patch does a soft attack if your velocity is under a certain threshold
> 
> here it is with the immedate attack, I think we're getting caught up in the little details instead of talking about the overall picture that sine needs a lot of improvement before it can replace kontakt. Right now it's not even worth the SSD real estate.


excuse me what the hell is that sample? That can't be right? Are you sure you're not missing something there?


----------



## alchemist

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> excuse me what the hell is that sample? That can't be right? Are you sure you're not missing something there?


What could I be be missing? If you know then I'd love to know. I really hope I'm missing something.


----------



## coprhead6

I will say that normal slurred legato in a Fortissimo brass sample layers tends to sound awful. CSB also sounds bad when doing medium/fast legato at maximum dynamics. Real players tend to retongue these / make them more marcato - maybe try retongued legato?

Just throwing pasta at the wall to see what sticks.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

alchemist said:


> What could I be be missing? If you know then I'd love to know. I really hope I'm missing something.


can we see the legato tab? Maybe the runs are in that patch down the bottom whereas in kontakt its all in one? 


coprhead6 said:


> I will say that normal slurred legato in a Fortissimo brass sample layers tends to sound awful. CSB also sounds bad when doing medium/fast legato at maximum dynamics. Real players tend to retongue these / make them more marcato - maybe try retongued legato?
> 
> Just throwing pasta at the wall to see what sticks.


The issue is that the kontakt version sounds okay


----------



## alchemist

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> can we see the legato tab? Maybe the runs are in that patch down the bottom whereas in kontakt its all in one?
> 
> The issue is that the kontakt version sounds okay


Yeah exactly, the Kontakt version sounds good. Sine has it switch to the runs automatically, you don't need to change to the runs articulation. I'm not using the retongued either before someone jumps on that lol, my velocities are set to avoid the retongue (sounds even worse in this scenario).


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

alchemist said:


> Yeah exactly, the Kontakt version sounds good. Sine has it switch to the runs automatically, you don't need to change to the runs articulation. I'm not using the retongued either before someone jumps on that lol, my velocities are set to avoid the retongue (sounds even worse in this scenario).


mmmm..hmmmm...mmm....

oh dear


----------



## studioj

Can confirm that trumpet 1 legato in Sine does not sound very good and is inferior to Kontakt version. I'm sure they will fix this, I would consider this one a bug.


----------



## jbuhler

It's the FF layer in Sine (for the second example) which doesn't exist in Kontakt, so, yes, they will sound different. And Sine can have issues with legato if you remove layers, which is what was used in the initial example that was posted to generate the F layer. Another thing that could be tried is setting the modwheel so the F layer is played (but the FF layer is still enabled) and see if that gives a closer approximation of the Kontakt version. You might also try turning down the legato volume a bit, which, for whatever reason, I find often helps with Sine legatos.


----------



## dhmusic

jbuhler said:


> It's the FF layer in Sine (for the second example) which doesn't exist in Kontakt, so, yes, they will sound different. And Sine can have issues with legato if you remove layers, which is what was used in the initial example that was posted to generate the F layer. Another thing that could be tried is setting the modwheel so the F layer is played (but the FF layer is still enabled) and see if that gives a closer approximation of the Kontakt version. You might also try turning down the legato volume a bit, which, for whatever reason, I find often helps with Sine legatos.


It seems like this might just have a proper bug that needs sorting. I wouldn't be surprised if the have an update that was almost ready but just needed a little more time.


----------



## Banquet

I needed a good Woodwind library and so the 50% sale was too much to resist. It was between BWW and CSW but the later needing 100gb and with my HD space getting low, I opted for BWW. However, despite the website saying it's 54gb, it ended up using 71gb!

However, one of the great things about SINE is the ability to not download all the mic positions. What are people's thoughts on the best ones to keep? I've always felt 3 or 4 mic positions is fine. So far, playing BWW I find Spot 1 and Spot 2 pretty similar but am more drawn to Spot 2. I really like ORTF but understand it's stereo, so wonder if I need that and AB? Perhaps just one of them? I feel Tree mics are the backbone of most recordings so inclined to keep that. And Surround, which I love in Tallinn, I'm not sure is so important in the Teldex situation? So thinking perhaps to keep Spot 2, ORTF, Tree and maybe AB. Any opinions?


----------



## drymcore_music

Getsumen said:


> OT stuff may be considered expensive, but something like Berlin Strings for 240 Euros? (If someone has EDU discount) Are you hearing yourself?
> 
> Berlin can definitely benefit from a few playability features, but unless I'm missing something it's literally just normal key switches like the majority of the libraries out there. (With the added benefit that most articulations are standardized!). Berlin Mains were also never really marketed as the "playable" versions. I guess that would be the Inspire and Berlin Orchestra stuff.
> 
> Berlin can definitely have improvements. (Especially the SINE legatos it seems) but saying that Berlin is a 400$ line is ridiculous


You are aware of the fact that EDU discount does NOT stack up with sale prices?

The price is €420+VAT in this sale or €504+VAT if you (for whatever reason) choose to pay the EDU price after the sale is over.

If one consider this cheap or expensive depends on a lot of factors, but there is no way to get the full library for €240 (i teach; my students and i qualify for EDU pricings on all library companies in existence; so i know).


----------



## coprhead6

Banquet said:


> ...one of the great things about SINE is the ability to not download all the mic positions. What are people's thoughts on the best ones to keep?



I *never* use surround microphone options in any library that is ambient. This is where my unifying hall reverb comes in from my template. I'm so happy to be able to remove this microphone from my SINE libraries  
For BWW I mostly use ORTF and Tree. Sometimes I will bring in the close mics, but the ORTFs are so good for that already. AB is used in conjunction with the tree usually. 

TLDR; Use your own hall reverb send / tail instead of any surround microphones. This will greatly assist in blending with other libraries.


----------



## emilio_n

drymcore_music said:


> You are aware of the fact that EDU discount does NOT stack up with sale prices?
> 
> The price is €420+VAT in this sale or €504+VAT if you (for whatever reason) choose to pay the EDU price after the sale is over.
> 
> If one consider this cheap or expensive depends on a lot of factors, but there is no way to get the full library for €240 (i teach; my students and i qualify for EDU pricings on all library companies in existence; so i know).


You can get the bundle and apply the EDU discount. This is not 240€, but slightly more. Something around 1100€ for the 4 libraries. Of course, only applies if you need it all.


----------



## Hendrik-Schwarzer

alchemist said:


> What could I be be missing? If you know then I'd love to know. I really hope I'm missing something.


We'll definitely look at this and you're right - this is not how it should sound.
My assumption is that this comes from the playable runs. We'll check and update asap.

-Hendrik


----------



## Rudianos

The value of SINE is just to good to pass up. In both GB and cost. Orchestral Tools has released two updates for SINE in a couple of months. Keep documenting and helping them build up. We are the best test chamber for these libraries.


----------



## Go To 11

I would love to know if there are plans to add the Teldex IR for the Woodwind expansions into SINE like there was in Kontakt.


----------



## drymcore_music

emilio_n said:


> You can get the bundle and apply the EDU discount. This is not 240€, but slightly more. Something around 1100€ for the 4 libraries. Of course, only applies if you need it all.


Have to check back.
That has changed then!


----------



## drymcore_music

emilio_n said:


> You can get the bundle and apply the EDU discount. This is not 240€, but slightly more. Something around 1100€ for the 4 libraries. Of course, only applies if you need it all.


"Please note that the EDU discount can not be combined with any other discounts (pre-order, introductory pricing, vouchers ...).
Also, EDU discounts can not be applied in retrospect for accounting reasons."

That´s what OT sais.


----------



## emilio_n

drymcore_music said:


> "Please note that the EDU discount can not be combined with any other discounts (pre-order, introductory pricing, vouchers ...).
> Also, EDU discounts can not be applied in retrospect for accounting reasons."
> 
> That´s what OT sais.


If you have the EDU discount you can run 40% from the price of the bundle without discount, which is around 1800€.


----------



## Jose7822

What’s the consensus in terms of installing all 4 sections of the Berlin series? Is it better to spread them out into separate drives, or will installing them all into a single drive not affect performance?

All of my drives are 1TB SSD, but only one of them is an mvme m.2 SSD drive. Based on this info, what would you recommend?


----------



## Hendrixon

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> We'll definitely look at this and you're right - this is not how it should sound.
> My assumption is that this comes from the playable runs. We'll check and update asap.
> 
> -Hendrik


Yes its the Playable runs , was just about to post about them  
In kontakt all of them are actually Legato Runs, and for me at least, only Trumpet 1 Playable Runs work fine (and sounds good). Trumpet 2+3+Ensemble are all broken.

In Sine they all "work" but really play bad... and even sound way different then the none legato run patches.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

jbuhler said:


> I really need to get something like Precedence, but the company doesn't seem very visible any longer and I've heard that some are having issues with the plugins on Big Sur and Monterey, and as far as I know the plugins were never really updated even for Catalina. (I'm on Catalina, but needing to update to Big Sur or Monterey in December.)


I didn't know that 2C Audio never did their homework for Mac users, I'm on PC so didn't have the issue.. That's too bad, really great products. I'm sure there are other alternatives !

Here is a little test I just did with the Solo Oboe from BWW Soloists. I'm trying to reproduce the "Solo Oboe" demo from the product page


----------



## Mike Fox

Before i pull the trigger on BS, is there anything wacky i should know about the Sine version? The last few pages of this thread has got me a little concerned, tbh.


----------



## dzilizzi

Mike Fox said:


> Before i pull the trigger on BS, is there anything wacky i should know about the Sine version? The last few pages of this thread has got me a little concerned, tbh.


The current version is not compatible with Windows 7. Other than that, I've had few problems with it.


----------



## Hendrixon

Mike Fox said:


> Before i pull the trigger on BS, is there anything wacky i should know about the Sine version? The last few pages of this thread has got me a little concerned, tbh.


Its a vast library, obviously ppl post about the places where there ARE issues  
So far I downloaded just the brass (need more disk space for the rest, not deleting the kontakt versions) and even if there are issues? its the sound! they did a very good job adding FF and some places even FFF.


----------



## muziksculp

@Hendrik-Schwarzer ,

Will there be more Berlin Strings videos posted showing them in more detail ?


----------



## jbuhler

Mike Fox said:


> Before i pull the trigger on BS, is there anything wacky i should know about the Sine version? The last few pages of this thread has got me a little concerned, tbh.


I have BS in both Kontakt and Sine. They behave somewhat differently. But so far I haven't encountered any major issues, except that the scripting for triples seems busted, and removing dynamic layers in legato can cause intermittent scripting issues. 

You might prefer any number of patches in the Kontakt version, because they are different, but I haven't found anything yet that seems unworkable in Sine, and I find the legato scripting in Kontakt often misfires in any case, so at worst you are exchanging one set of legato problems for another. I think the Sine legato is adequate on the whole, not stellar but generally workable, and so far I'm finding it more workable in Sine than in Kontakt. In context you likely won't have to worry much about any inadequacies of the legato, and in exposed passages, you can usually find a good legato solution by mixing and matching the various longs with the various legatos and attending to the legato volume (which I find is set a bit too high by default). In a few preliminary tests, the runs legato seems quite a lot improved over the similar implementation of the fast or agile legato in Kontakt.

Berlin Strings is a deep library, and one virtue of that is that it has a lot of built in redundancy, so if you encounter a bug or just something you don't like one way, you can almost always accomplish something quite similar another way. 

Oh, and I think you'll like the bitey spiccatos, as well as the large range of different shorts, as well as some of the blurred articulations, which I think come in handy scoring horror.

If you have other Sine libraries and they are working for you, you likely won't have any Sine issues beyond what you are already experiencing.


----------



## axb312

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> Hey Guys, thanks again for all your feedback.
> 
> Here are some thoughts and comparisons regarding the legato of the Berlin Series in SINE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a nice weekend everyone!
> 
> Best,
> Hendrik



Did the runs in Sine sound a little drier or is my hearing off?


----------



## Mike Fox

jbuhler said:


> I have BS in both Kontakt and Sine. They behave somewhat differently. But so far I haven't encountered any major issues, except that the scripting for triples seems busted, and removing dynamic layers in legato can cause intermittent scripting issues.
> 
> You might prefer any number of patches in the Kontakt version, because they are different, but I haven't found anything yet that seems unworkable in Sine, and I find the legato scripting in Kontakt often misfires in any case, so at worst you are exchanging one set of legato problems for another. I think the Sine legato is adequate on the whole, not stellar but generally workable, and so far I'm finding it more workable in Sine than in Kontakt. In context you likely won't have to worry much about any inadequacies of the legato, and in exposed passages, you can usually find a good legato solution by mixing and matching the various longs with the various legatos and attending to the legato volume (which I find is set a bit too high by default). In a few preliminary tests, the runs legato seems quite a lot improved over the similar implementation of the fast or agile legato in Kontakt.
> 
> Berlin Strings is a deep library, and one virtue of that is that it has a lot of built in redundancy, so if you encounter a bug or just something you don't like one way, you can almost always accomplish something quite similar another way.
> 
> Oh, and I think you'll like the bitey spiccatos, as well as the large range of different shorts, as well as some of the blurred articulations, which I think come in handy scoring horror.
> 
> If you have other Sine libraries and they are working for you, you likely won't have any Sine issues beyond what you are already experiencing.


Thanks for the info! And yes! It was the spicattos that got my ears perked. Definitely the main selling point for me.


----------



## Mike Fox

axb312 said:


> Did the runs in Sine sound a little drier or is my hearing off?


Honestly, everything sounds dryer in this BS Sine walkthrough than all the other videos I’ve watched. I’m guessing it has more to do with the mic placement(?), because i had no idea that BS could sound so close and upfront.


----------



## manuhz

Mike Fox said:


> Honestly, everything sounds dryer in this BS Sine walkthrough than all the other videos I’ve watched. I’m guessing it has more to do with the mic placement(?), because i had no idea that BS could sound so close and upfront.



I only own the SINE version and also have the same impression... They probably did a strong mic rebalancing, what for my taste sounds a lot better and makes the library much more versatile (SINE player´s dysfunctionalities apart...). That means, if you need more room sound you can engange the AB and Surround mics to your liking. Very nice


----------



## lettucehat

So the upgrade from Kontakt to Sine is confirmed as _fixed_ at 10% of the full retail cost? No discount on that during sales?


----------



## Casiquire

Mike Fox said:


> Honestly, everything sounds dryer in this BS Sine walkthrough than all the other videos I’ve watched. I’m guessing it has more to do with the mic placement(?), because i had no idea that BS could sound so close and upfront.



The strings do sound very upfront and bright for my tastes, but luckily we can feed two birds with one seed and just up the AB mic. It's a warmer sound and picks up more room. I mix it pretty close to the level of the Tree mic for the rest of the sections but i bump it up for the strings


----------



## Mike Fox

Casiquire said:


> The strings do sound very upfront and bright for my tastes, but luckily we can feed two birds with one seed and just up the AB mic. It's a warmer sound and picks up more room. I mix it pretty close to the level of the Tree mic for the rest of the sections but i bump it up for the strings


I'm actually quite fond of that dryer/upfront sound, but I was always under the impression that BS was a bit too distant and wet for my tastes. However, this recent video definitely changed my mind about that.


----------



## Casiquire

Mike Fox said:


> I'm actually quite fond of that dryer/upfront sound, but I was always under the impression that BS was a bit too distant and wet for my tastes. However, this recent video definitely changed my mind about that.


Your experiences match mine. They're far dryer than I expected. To an extent it does make sense, since the strings are closer to the tree mic than the brass, but still. Let us all know how you like them!


----------



## coprhead6

Casiquire said:


> Your experiences match mine. They're far dryer than I expected. To an extent it does make sense, since the strings are closer to the tree mic than the brass, but still. Let us all know how you like them!


Ugh that makes it even more tempting considering my other main string battleaxe is SSS and SCS. The fact that it's drier and the short notes are so punchy and agile are huge selling points for me right now.... Spitfire string shorts are so delicate.


----------



## Casiquire

coprhead6 said:


> Ugh that makes it even more tempting considering my other main string battleaxe is SSS and SCS. The fact that it's drier and the short notes are so punchy and agile are huge selling points for me right now.... Spitfire string shorts are so delicate.


Delicate can be gorgeous sometimes. But yeah Berlin will be WAY dryer than those alternatives, though still far from bone dry and dead sounding


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> Your experiences match mine. They're far dryer than I expected. To an extent it does make sense, since the strings are closer to the tree mic than the brass, but still. Let us all know how you like them!


The Sine Berlin Woodwinds also sound dryer to me than do the Kontakt ones.


----------



## manuhz

I start to think they have gone a bit too far with some sample editing, it´s very appreciable on the shorts. The releases seem more decoupled from the rest of the samples. Anyway, I like it!


----------



## Jett Hitt

These comments about the dryness concern me a bit. Can I dial Teldex back in with AB mics? I love the room, and now I feel like I am going to have to dress it up with a reverb. I sometimes add just a touch of Valhalla to bind it all together, but mostly with Berlin in the past I have felt like I didn't really have to. Now it sounds like a reverb might be necessary. If I do need to apply a reverb, which one are folks liking the best with Berlin? Since it is BF, I might as well get it now.

(My new SSD arrives tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to start downloading and have some time to play with it before the BF sale has passed.)


----------



## coprhead6

Jett Hitt said:


> These comments about the dryness concern me a bit. Can I dial Teldex back in with AB mics? I love the room, and now I feel like I am going to have to dress it up with a reverb. I sometimes add just a tough of Valhalla to bind it all together, but mostly with Berlin in the past I have felt like I didn't really have to. Now it sounds like a reverb might be necessary. If I do need to apply a reverb, which one are folks liking the best with Berlin? Since it is BF, I might as well get it now.
> 
> (My new SSD arrives tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to start downloading and have some time to play with it before the BF sale has passed.)



AB mic will definitely give you more room impression. It's designed to work hand in hand with the tree mics. 
Just get a nice hall reverb with early reflection control so you can get a nice tail


----------



## Vik

Jett Hitt said:


> These comments about the dryness concern me a bit. Can I dial Teldex back in with AB mics? I love the room, and now I feel like I am going to have to dress it up with a reverb. I sometimes add just a tough of Valhalla to bind it all together, but mostly with Berlin in the past I have felt like I didn't really have to.


AFAIK, the Sine version of Berlin Strings use the same recordings as the Kontakt version, so I guess there's no reason to be worried. But Berlin Strings are, in general clearly more dry than libraries recorded in Air Studios or other large halls.


----------



## Mike Fox

Btw, the Sine walkthrough doesn’t really showcase the low strings much (unless i missed it). Can anyone comment on the tonal characteristics? Is it a bold and powerful low end, or is it just kinda there to support the high strings?


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> These comments about the dryness concern me a bit. Can I dial Teldex back in with AB mics? I love the room, and now I feel like I am going to have to dress it up with a reverb. I sometimes add just a touch of Valhalla to bind it all together, but mostly with Berlin in the past I have felt like I didn't really have to. Now it sounds like a reverb might be necessary. If I do need to apply a reverb, which one are folks liking the best with Berlin? Since it is BF, I might as well get it now.
> 
> (My new SSD arrives tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to start downloading and have some time to play with it before the BF sale has passed.)


I wouldn't call the tree sound dry, just a bit less room, so the sound is clearer than in the Kontakt version. You can add more room back in with A/B and Surround.


----------



## Casiquire

Jett Hitt said:


> These comments about the dryness concern me a bit. Can I dial Teldex back in with AB mics? I love the room, and now I feel like I am going to have to dress it up with a reverb. I sometimes add just a touch of Valhalla to bind it all together, but mostly with Berlin in the past I have felt like I didn't really have to. Now it sounds like a reverb might be necessary. If I do need to apply a reverb, which one are folks liking the best with Berlin? Since it is BF, I might as well get it now.
> 
> (My new SSD arrives tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to start downloading and have some time to play with it before the BF sale has passed.)


Don't worry, they're not dry by any means. Just dryer than i expected considering the winds and brass. You get plenty of the Teldex sound and yes the AB adds some room as well as some really nice color


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Mike Fox said:


> Btw, the Sine walkthrough doesn’t really showcase the low strings much (unless i missed it). Can anyone comment on the tonal characteristics? Is it a bold and powerful low end, or is it just kinda there to support the high strings?


Cello are nice n detailed but fairly small. The bass are imo the weakest of the lot. Very resonant in unwanted places and frequencies lacking where you want them. Certainly wouldn't call them powerful. They do better with First Chair layered.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I wouldn't call the tree sound dry, just a bit less room, so the sound is clearer than in the Kontakt version. You can add more room back in with A/B and Surround.


That's good to know. I'm always a bit hesitant about reverb. I never really know which one to use--not that I have many--and when I saw AKD using Valhalla, I figured that it was an affordable option for someone who doesn't really know what to buy.


----------



## Mike Fox

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Cello are nice n detailed but fairly small. The bass are imo the weakest of the lot. Very resonant in unwanted places and frequencies lacking where you want them. Certainly wouldn't call them powerful. They do better with First Chair layered.


Hmm…..that could be a deal breaker then, especially since i rely heavily on low end for a lot of the work I do. 

I guess i need to figure out if it’s still worth it for me at this point.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Mike Fox said:


> Hmm…..that could be a deal breaker then, especially since i rely heavily on low end for a lot of the work I do.
> 
> I guess i need to figure out if it’s still worth it for me at this point.


BSS, on the other hand, has the best basses and cellos I have ever heard. Viola is really good too. Violins are not as special.


----------



## Mike Fox

Jett Hitt said:


> BSS, on the other hand, has the best basses and cellos I have ever heard. Viola is really good too. Violins are not as special.


Guess i need to get both then.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Mike Fox said:


> Guess i need to get both then.


I'm pretty sure that's in their calculus.


----------



## Casiquire

Nothing wrong with grabbing a single instrument bass from BSS or FC and layering it in


----------



## Mike Fox

Would anyone be willing to post a BS clip of just the basses, as well as the celli and basses playing in octaves?


----------



## borisb2

Mike Fox said:


> Would anyone be willing to post a BS clip of just the basses, as well as the celli and basses playing in octaves?



View attachment BS_Bass_cello.mp3

Kontakt version though .. (didnt download full Sine version yet) .. or were you asking for Sine only?

Tree + Close.. Basses legato, Basses Sustain, Basses + Cello legato in octaves


----------



## borisb2

Has it been reported that the leader mic in BS V1 jumps all over the place (panning and volume) when using Fingered legato? .. not usable at the moment, which is a shame..

Here's a snippet of Violins 1 with Leader mic enabled

View attachment BS_V1.mp3

first Sine-version with Slurred legato, then with Fingered legato, lastly Kontakt version Slurred legato (all copied Midi - see below)

am I doing something wrong here?


----------



## Mike Fox

borisb2 said:


> View attachment BS_Bass_cello.mp3
> 
> Kontakt version though .. (didnt download full Sine version yet) .. or were you asking for Sine only?
> 
> Tree + Close.. Basses legato, Basses Sustain, Basses + Cello legato in octaves


Yeah, but this’ll work too. 

Thanks so much!!!


----------



## BlackDorito

Back to the brass ... I haven't been able to consume all 40 pages of this thread but I did watch Henrik's video about how SINE legato was a different and potentially better implementation. 

My question is whether OT has stated anywhere that the particular horn/trumpet comparisons on this thread actually represent real SINE implementation problems that they intend to work on? I haven't seen it.

If not, the 50% discount option (SINE only) perhaps becomes a 40% discount option (start with Kontakt, upgrade to SINE for another 10%). Might still be worth it.

Meanwhile I'll keep using my wonderful Ark I+II brass on SINE and the Brass Mutes on Kontakt.


----------



## lettucehat

BlackDorito said:


> Back to the brass ... I haven't been able to consume all 40 pages of this thread but I did watch Henrik's video about how SINE legato was a different and potentially better implementation.
> 
> My question is whether OT has stated anywhere that the particular horn/trumpet comparisons on this thread actually represent real SINE implementation problems that they intend to work on? I haven't seen it.
> 
> If not, the 50% discount option (SINE only) perhaps becomes a 40% discount option (start with Kontakt, upgrade to SINE for another 10%). Might still be worth it.
> 
> Meanwhile I'll keep using my wonderful Ark I+II brass on SINE and the Brass Mutes on Kontakt.


Agreed. I think anyone looking at these libraries for the first time needs to seriously consider eating that 10% given the response so far about legato differences and others. There is a growing list of stuff that goes beyond bugs that one has to believe OT will ultimately address, and the thoughtful video we've seen on legato doesn't really address the nature of the differences so much as insist the Sine version is better, which might make you think it's a creative choice that will remain largely unchanged. The upgrade fee for new buyers I would normally understand, but not while there are such discrepancies between the versions. I think a bit of a grace period would be nice where the fee is waived, given the questions people have, but I imagine that ship has sailed as people have already started buying and paying those upgrade fees.


----------



## axb312

BlackDorito said:


> Back to the brass ... I haven't been able to consume all 40 pages of this thread but I did watch Henrik's video about how SINE legato was a different and potentially better implementation.
> 
> My question is whether OT has stated anywhere that the particular horn/trumpet comparisons on this thread actually represent real SINE implementation problems that they intend to work on? I haven't seen it.
> 
> If not, the 50% discount option (SINE only) perhaps becomes a 40% discount option (start with Kontakt, upgrade to SINE for another 10%). Might still be worth it.
> 
> Meanwhile I'll keep using my wonderful Ark I+II brass on SINE and the Brass Mutes on Kontakt.


In Kontakt, you could easily morph between say, lower dynamic Brass in Ark 2 and Higher Dynamic Brass in Ark 1, creating a kind of full dynamic range instrument.

Waiting for something similar in Sine (The ability to crossfade between instruments from different libraries).


----------



## Rudianos

it's not just a 10% deal though. the sine bundle is 30% off. kontakt does not have the same benefits. sine is effectively 65% off . during BF... kontakt 40% if you factor in a transfer. I have total confidence that they will resolve the most critical issues by the end of the year. @OrchestralTools still waiting for a Timpani crossgrade or some kind of credit before I buy the thing though!


----------



## BlackDorito

Rudianos said:


> I have total confidence that they will resolve the most critical issues by the end of the year.


I hope you are right. What I heard from Tobias, who is a high-integrity person (BOLDing by me):

_we definitely take all feedback seriously and every single feedback is recorded and evaluated when we make updates.
You did not write which of the four horns you find the legato better in the Kontakt version, but we've actually had emails from users that all 4 are considerably better, as well as considerably worse 
Sometimes these things are a matter of workflow, and of course taste. *If there are issues to address, we will definitely do so!*
Often it simply takes time to wade through the feedback and bring everything into a battle plan our editors can act on. We obviously read all discussions on forums and elsewhere and can only encourage everyone to email us with their feedback, so we can properly process and address it.

best

Tobias
OT Support_

... and also:

_However I would debate that the SINEplayer legati are worse, on the contrary, actually.
The Kontakt version has super pronounced transitions at place, which are toned down and much more realistic in the SINE version.
But that is totally a matter of taste, and you can of course just raise the legato volume.

best

Tobias
OT Support_


So, some earnest and high-integrity people can say they will fix problems .. but if they don't acknowledge specific problems, I don't know what to think.

I suppose we've flogged this enough and people will just have to make individual decisions.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

BlackDorito said:


> I hope you are right. What I heard from Tobias, who is a high-integrity person (BOLDing by me):
> 
> _we definitely take all feedback seriously and every single feedback is recorded and evaluated when we make updates.
> You did not write which of the four horns you find the legato better in the Kontakt version, but we've actually had emails from users that all 4 are considerably better, as well as considerably worse
> Sometimes these things are a matter of workflow, and of course taste. *If there are issues to address, we will definitely do so!*
> Often it simply takes time to wade through the feedback and bring everything into a battle plan our editors can act on. We obviously read all discussions on forums and elsewhere and can only encourage everyone to email us with their feedback, so we can properly process and address it.
> 
> best
> 
> Tobias
> OT Support_
> 
> ... and also:
> 
> _However I would debate that the SINEplayer legati are worse, on the contrary, actually.
> The Kontakt version has super pronounced transitions at place, which are toned down and much more realistic in the SINE version.
> But that is totally a matter of taste, and you can of course just raise the legato volume.
> 
> best
> 
> Tobias
> OT Support_
> 
> 
> So, some earnest and high-integrity people can say they will fix problems .. but if they don't acknowledge specific problems, I don't know what to think.
> 
> I suppose we've flogged this enough and people will just have to make individual decisions.


“Problems” imply something is broken - legato preferences are not that. If there are bugs with the scripting, that’s one thing, but wanting to adjust transition length is subjective. Hopefully OT will not only fix the issues but also expand the user control of certain aspects of the scripting so that users can adjust to their personal tastes.


----------



## Reactor.UK

Well, a follow up... Woodwinds

I was informed I'd need to upgrade to Woodwinds Revive... sounds fair, however, I'd need to pay to crossgrade to SINE.

Having paid full price for all the Strings, Woodwinds, Brass and Percussion (Inc. All Expansions) I'm done with Orchestral Tools.

ALL of the other sections (those available to be registered within SINE) registered for free.

So, because I'd be buying Woodwinds Revive after a arbitrary date I'm out of luck.

Granted it's only €65 (neither here or there in the greater scheme of things), however, for me it's principle, and for that reason my business will go elsewhere.


----------



## moon

So I know the legatos in the other libraries are wonky in Sine, but are there any reasons not to get Berlin Perc in Sine?


----------



## dhmusic

moon said:


> So I know the legatos in the other libraries are wonky in Sine, but are there any reasons not to get Berlin Perc in Sine?


A big plus if you're purchasing new is that it comes with the timpani now. So basically Berlin Percussion is 125 Euros right now if you were going to buy the timpani too


----------



## alchemist

moon said:


> So I know the legatos in the other libraries are wonky in Sine, but are there any reasons not to get Berlin Perc in Sine?


I've actually been finding the SINE Berlin Perc to be an improvement from Kontakt. That's the only one I will use for now.


----------



## Zanshin

Reactor.UK said:


> Well, a follow up... Woodwinds
> 
> I was informed I'd need to upgrade to Woodwinds Revive... sounds fair, however, I'd need to pay to crossgrade to SINE.
> 
> Having paid full price for all the Strings, Woodwinds, Brass and Percussion (Inc. All Expansions) I'm done with Orchestral Tools.
> 
> ALL of the other sections (those available to be registered within SINE) registered for free.
> 
> So, because I'd be buying Woodwinds Revive after a arbitrary date I'm out of luck.
> 
> Granted it's only €65 (neither here or there in the greater scheme of things), however, for me it's principle, and for that reason my business will go elsewhere.


So first, I don't have any skin in the game.

You have Legacy? And Revive is a ton of new recordings right? You are angry you have to pay €65 for new recordings? Maybe I don't understand.


----------



## jbuhler

borisb2 said:


> Has it been reported that the leader mic in BS V1 jumps all over the place (panning and volume) when using Fingered legato? .. not usable at the moment, which is a shame..
> 
> Here's a snippet of Violins 1 with Leader mic enabled
> 
> View attachment BS_V1.mp3
> 
> first Sine-version with Slurred legato, then with Fingered legato, lastly Kontakt version Slurred legato (all copied Midi - see below)
> 
> am I doing something wrong here?


You don't have it set in the default position, but panned slightly left and the legato interval +2dB from out of the box.

But the volume of the D and Eb in the leader mic also sounds like they are set far too high in the ff layer. The other layers are better. The volume on those layers is generally pretty good but there is more variation than I'd like in the pan.


----------



## JTB

So far... from my POV... SINE... TRAINWRECK!!


----------



## Raphioli

Jett Hitt said:


> These comments about the dryness concern me a bit. Can I dial Teldex back in with AB mics? I love the room, and now I feel like I am going to have to dress it up with a reverb. I sometimes add just a touch of Valhalla to bind it all together, but mostly with Berlin in the past I have felt like I didn't really have to. Now it sounds like a reverb might be necessary. If I do need to apply a reverb, which one are folks liking the best with Berlin? Since it is BF, I might as well get it now.
> 
> (My new SSD arrives tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to start downloading and have some time to play with it before the BF sale has passed.)


I'm assuming that you haven't watched their Berlin Strings SINE version video yet?
Because there's a part in that video where they continuously play with the Spiccato patch and adjust the mic positions in real time, which should eliminate your worries.

My personal concern is that @OrchestralTools maybe be feeling that legato transitions aren't even a problem. (hence no improvement)
I'm hoping they would just give us more control over the transitions.
Not just the "volume" and switching through transition samples, but the ability to tweak those individual transition samples within SINE as we see fit. (length, timing, etc)

But as of this moment, my hopes are low.

So I agree with @lettucehat. If you're new, I'd personally consider the need to eat the 10% upgrade fee and get the Kontakt version first. Because for some odd reason, you can't cross grade to the Kontakt version from SINE.


----------



## Zanshin

Raphioli said:


> I'm assuming that you haven't watched their Berlin Strings SINE version video yet?
> Because there's a part in that video where they continuously play with the Spiccato patch and adjust the mic positions in real time, which should eliminate your worries.


Do the brass and woodwinds get as dry as the strings seem to? Seems flexible.


----------



## Jose7822

Zanshin said:


> So first, I don't have any skin in the game.
> 
> You have Legacy? And Revive is a ton of new recordings right? You are angry you have to pay €65 for new recordings? Maybe I don't understand.


I kinda understand where he comes from, but I also feel that leaving OT because of this is a bit much. For one, these things are better resolved by talking directly to the developers and seeing if they find his argument reasonable. Sometimes these things have to be addressed in a case by case basis. There’s nothing to lose.


----------



## Zanshin

Jose7822 said:


> I kinda understand where he comes from, but I also feel that leaving OT because of this is a bit much. For one, these things are better resolved by talking directly to the developers and seeing if they find his argument reasonable. Sometimes these things have to be addressed in a case by case basis. There’s nothing to lose.


Perhaps I'm confused then, I thought you always had to pay to from Legacy to Revive?


----------



## Michael Antrum

Zanshin said:


> Perhaps I'm confused then, I thought you always had to pay to from Legacy to Revive?



You did, I think it cost me 199 at the time.


----------



## Getsumen

Zanshin said:


> Perhaps I'm confused then, I thought you always had to pay to from Legacy to Revive?


I guess they mean they have to pay the SINE fee on top of buying Revive upgrade.

(Because the Revive Upgrade is I assume a Kontakt purchase, which then requires 10% to be put as the SINE port?)


----------



## Zanshin

Getsumen said:


> I guess they mean they have to pay the SINE fee on top of buying Revive upgrade.
> 
> (Because the Revive Upgrade is I assume a Kontakt purchase, which then requires 10% to be put as the SINE port?)


Oh that makes way more sense. If he is paying XXX for the upgrade to Revive, and then having to pay the 65 to upgrade ... yeah they have to draw a line somewhere, they could be more flexible during this change over.

If he is getting Revive and update to Sine for $65, that's a great deal haha.


----------



## Jose7822

Right, he’s talking about an additional fee to cross grade from Revive to SINE.


----------



## Raphioli

Zanshin said:


> Do the brass and woodwinds get as dry as the strings seem to? Seems flexible.


In terms of mic positions, yes they are very flexible.
Although I can only speak for the Kontakt version, I don't think there would be any differences in terms of ambience. (unless they remixed the samples for each mic position)

Theres a chance that the default values of the mic positions might differ between the 2 versions though.


----------



## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> Do the brass and woodwinds get as dry as the strings seem to? Seems flexible.


They can all get medium-dry. Can't get rid of the room entirely and i wouldn't even suggest trying, but favoring the close mics can dry things up a decent amount. I'd also check out the brass walkthroughs where they show you all the different mics.


----------



## dzilizzi

Zanshin said:


> Oh that makes way more sense. If he is paying XXX for the upgrade to Revive, and then having to pay the 65 to upgrade ... yeah they have to draw a line somewhere, they could be more flexible during this change over.
> 
> If he is getting Revive and update to Sine for $65, that's a great deal haha.


If I remember correctly, the upgrade to Revive was only available for a limited time when it first came out. So if you couldn't upgrade then for some reason, you were out of luck. Meaning paying the upgrade and Sine 10% is the only option other than just buying Sine winds straight out. I guess if OT offered a "complete your bundle" price, going straight to Sine would make sense. But they don't and I don't know if the individual Sine libraries are on sale for less than €264? I got the full Kontakt, so I didn't pay attention before upgrading.


----------



## Zanshin

Yeah I did some digging around on the OT site after and found the upgrade page:









Berlin Woodwinds Revive Crossgrade


This license is exclusively for people who already own the original Berlin Woodwinds (Legacy version for Kontakt, sold from 2012 to 2017), and provides them with the additional content contained in the later ‘Revive’ version in the Kontakt version. After purchasing this license, a crossgrade to...




www.orchestraltools.com





99 on sale (plus the 65 for Sine version). If he reads all the Sine angst he'd be happy to stay with Kontakt haha.


----------



## Michael Antrum

dzilizzi said:


> If I remember correctly, the upgrade to Revive was only available for a limited time when it first came out. So if you couldn't upgrade then for some reason, you were out of luck. Meaning paying the upgrade and Sine 10% is the only option other than just buying Sine winds straight out. I guess if OT offered a "complete your bundle" price, going straight to Sine would make sense. But they don't and I don't know if the individual Sine libraries are on sale for less than €264? I got the full Kontakt, so I didn't pay attention before upgrading.


Absolutely correct. If you didn't upgrade by a certain date you were SOOL, and tough for you. Another one of OT's rather unfriendly, and to be honest, more baffling decisions. What was the harm in leaving it available for those who weren't in a position to upgrade before the deadline....If there's any group of customers who are likely to have the occasional cash flow problem, it's musicians.....

I have ummed and ahhhed about getting he rest of the OT Orchestra, (I have the woodwinds) and I have decided to pass. If OT had offered both versions, like they have before, I'd have been very tempted, but they are abandoning capsule, and the Sine versions are clearly a work in progress rather than the finished article, as is the Sine player.

The golden rule is never buy a library for what it will become, but for what it is now, and I have seen how long it takes them to fix things. The OT I knew and loved for products Ark I and Ark II seems to have lost it's mojo somewhat - go back and read the comments about products like JXL brass, and the problems on launch.

If, however, we are in the same place with the same offer next year, with issues resolved - then I'll find it harder to resist. It just feels like everyone is being bounced into making a quick decision - and if OT decide never to offer these prices again, well - so be it.

I adore Berlin Strings on Staffpad, but looking through the threads of Sine workarounds, it really just puts me off completely....


----------



## Casiquire

Speaking of SINE angst, i figured the compression made it worth the effort to try out a more robust experiment using mostly SINE and i found the results to be pretty good. I still have a preference for the Kontakt adjusted legatos but in the mix the difference is less obvious. It's enough to convince me to switch my brass and percussion over, at least. A bit of Izotope's vintage tape, which I'm trying out now, and it sounds pretty convincing. This is the first I've heard the Berlin Orchestra all together and it's fantastic. It is sonically pretty similar to some orchestral recordings I've heard


----------



## borisb2

Casiquire said:


> It is sonically pretty similar to some orchestral recordings I've heard


Wow.. that is one bold statement 😋.. 

looking forward to implement BBrass in my template (just upgraded to Berlin Bundle for an additional discount (as Brass was the last missing piece in the puzzle) )


----------



## drymcore_music

emilio_n said:


> If you have the EDU discount you can run 40% from the price of the bundle without discount, which is around 1800€.


That is the regular bundle-price. Of course that get´s the 40%-treatment.

Right now it´s on sale for 30%, so you get an additional 10% on that. 

It´s always the better price: either EDU (40%) or sale (right now: 50% on single instances of Berlin, or 30% on the bundle).

But you cannot stack sale prices with EDU.


----------



## Casiquire

borisb2 said:


> Wow.. that is one bold statement 😋..


Bear in mind I'm referring to the sound profile, not necessarily saying it's THAT realistic.


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> This is the first I've heard the Berlin Orchestra all together and it's fantastic. It is sonically pretty similar to some orchestral recordings I've heard


I agree regarding the Berlin series, but I'd also say this for a few other "complete orchestra" packages. 

That is, while no doubt some people are incredible at blending libraries from different sources together, there's something special about just using one stage in a project. It's why I keep snapping up things like Special Bows and MODUS.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Raphioli said:


> I'm assuming that you haven't watched their Berlin Strings SINE version video yet?


 Thanks for the tip. That was very helpful. I hadn't watched the BS video because I've owned BS for a year now in Kontakt, and so it didn't seem quite as new and shiny.


----------



## jbuhler

Raphioli said:


> My personal concern is that @OrchestralTools maybe be feeling that legato transitions aren't even a problem. (hence no improvement)
> I'm hoping they would just give us more control over the transitions.
> Not just the "volume" and switching through transition samples, but the ability to tweak those individual transition samples within SINE as we see fit. (length, timing, etc)


I think there are things about the legato that OT will admit are an issue and will fix. But I don’t see them giving us more control over the details of the legato. At least not in the short term. There’s too much other work to be done on Sine before they get to something like that. Just my opinion of course. I don’t have any inside knowledge about OT’s plans for Sine development.


----------



## Raphioli

jbuhler said:


> I think there are things about the legato that OT will admit are an issue and will fix. But I don’t see them giving us more control over the details of the legato. At least not in the short term. There’s too much other work to be done on Sine before they get to something like that. Just my opinion of course. I don’t have any inside knowledge about OT’s plans for Sine development.


Yes.

Which is why I said, my hopes are low in that post.
And would recommend getting the Kontakt version and eating the 10% upgrade if you are new. (if you're a person who wants to tweak the legatos of course)


----------



## MaxOctane

Can anyone explain why the price on the OT webpage mentions "SALE 30% off"? I really can't figure out what that means.

I had Berlin Woodwinds and bought Berlin Strings a couple of days ago. That leaves brass+perc at 800€+500€ (full-price) which is 650€ at 50% off. My price below is a bit low that than. But I can't figure out how 30% fits in. Someone in one of these Berlin threads, someone is saying the full collection is 65% off. ??






@OrchestralTools


----------



## Zanshin

MaxOctane said:


> Can anyone explain why the price on the OT webpage mentions "SALE 30% off"? I really can't figure out what that means.
> 
> I had Berlin Woodwinds and bought Berlin Strings a couple of days ago. That leaves brass+perc at 800€+500€ (full-price) which is 650€ at 50% off. My price below is a bit low that than. But I can't figure out how 30% fits in. Someone in one of these Berlin threads, someone is saying the full collection is 65% off. ??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @OrchestralTools


The bundle itself is a discount, and the bundle is discounted.


----------



## MaxOctane

Zanshin said:


> The bundle itself is a discount, and the bundle is discounted.


Ah, so you're saying:

* During non-BF time, the bundle price is ~30% off the sale price. And during current BF offer, the bundle is discounted a further ~30%.

* The math works out such that the bundle BF price is a bit less than 50% off the full price of each item individually.


----------



## Robin

I just noticed that OT used the same piece showcasing the Sine version for Berlin Brass in their walkthroughs as they used 5 years ago to showcase the Kontakt version, so we get a direct comparison between the two on a demo made by Sascha.

At the beginning of the video the new Sine version Demo:



And here is the old Video with the Kontakt version:



I have voiced my opinion on my preferences enough here and this is no exception but everybody should decide on their own.


----------



## Zanshin

MaxOctane said:


> Ah, so you're saying:
> 
> * During non-BF time, the bundle price is ~30% off the sale price. And during current BF offer, the bundle is discounted a further ~30%.
> 
> * The math works out such that the bundle BF price is a bit less than 50% off the full price of each item individually.


Basically … take for example the Character Strings bundle. It is not on sale but buying the bundle vs full is 449 vs 638. Now imagine the bundle price of 449 being 30% less.

The Berlin bundle is a great deal right now


----------



## jbuhler

Raphioli said:


> Yes.
> 
> Which is why I said, my hopes are low in that post.
> And would recommend getting the Kontakt version and eating the 10% upgrade if you are new. (if you're a person who wants to tweak the legatos of course)


Except the Kontakt version has its own set of issues with legato and other things. There are all sorts of workflow issues that are vastly improved in Sine for me. So it's really a question of dealing with this set of issues or that set of issues. And the calculus will very much depend on the individual. Personally I prefer dealing with the Sine set of issues. I find most of the advantages of the Kontakt version are washed out the second the instruments are used in context, and Sine offers me much better compatibility with my workflow. I understand others will prefer negotiating the Kontakt issues. I think OT does as well, which is why they are still selling the Kontakt version.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Robin said:


> I just noticed that OT used the same piece showcasing the Sine version for Berlin Brass in their walkthroughs as they used 5 years ago to showcase the Kontakt version, so we get a direct comparison between the two on a demo made by Sascha.
> 
> At the beginning of the video the new Sine version Demo:
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the old Video with the Kontakt version:
> 
> 
> 
> I have voiced my opinion on my preferences enough here and this is no exception but everybody should decide on their own.



Wonder what @Hendrik-Schwarzer thinks here because the Kontakt rendering is much nicer and smoother.


----------



## lettucehat

Rudianos said:


> it's not just a 10% deal though. the sine bundle is 30% off. kontakt does not have the same benefits. sine is effectively 65% off . during BF... kontakt 40% if you factor in a transfer. I have total confidence that they will resolve the most critical issues by the end of the year. @OrchestralTools still waiting for a Timpani crossgrade or some kind of credit before I buy the thing though!


Who said anything about a 10% deal? I missed it. There's a 10% _fee _to go from Kontakt to Sine, which kinda sucks but seems necessary for many, and we also aren't allowed to check out Sine (taking advantage of the bundle deal) and go backwards to Kontakt if we want, even if we would be willing to pay.

Your post is kind of my point - you do have to have total confidence that they'll resolve things in a way that you'll personally find agreeable. In that case, the Sine bundle is incredible and I wish I could say I had total confidence they'll add legato in the way I personally want. Which is ok, I would just love to have an indication at some point. So far, not much - they seem to like it in its current state, obvious bugs aside.


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Wonder what @Hendrik-Schwarzer thinks here because the Kontakt rendering is much nicer and smoother.


Different sound for sure. Also it seems like the new version uses the FF samples which are on the whole a bit rougher. I'm not sure I'd say the old version is nicer in all respects. There are things I like better about the new version, but I also prefer the old performance overall. I do think the new version could execute this passage better with more tweaking. It would be interesting to know how much work they put into the new version (or is this the same midi dropped on the Sine version).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

jbuhler said:


> Different sound for sure. Also it seems like the new version uses the FF samples which are on the whole a bit rougher. I'm not sure I'd say the old version is nicer in all respects. There are things I like better about the new version, but I also prefer the old performance overall. I do think the new version could execute this passage better with more tweaking. It would be interesting to know how much work they put into the new version (or is this the same midi dropped on the Sine version).


I also heard the difference in dynamics, but curious why OT would start off with this demo when they have told us we need to program for the new SINE version instead of re-using old MIDI (which it sounds like they might've here).


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Just to be sure, your theory is that Sascha Knorr imported his old MIDI, and thought "meh, could be better with some tweaks... But that'll do it for the official brand new walkthrough video". 

Right?


----------



## Raphioli

jbuhler said:


> Except the Kontakt version has its own set of issues with legato and other things. There are all sorts of workflow issues that are vastly improved in Sine for me. So it's really a question of dealing with this set of issues or that set of issues. And the calculus will very much depend on the individual. Personally I prefer dealing with the Sine set of issues. I find most of the advantages of the Kontakt version are washed out the second the instruments are used in context, and Sine offers me much better compatibility with my workflow. I understand others will prefer negotiating the Kontakt issues. I think OT does as well, which is why they are still selling the Kontakt version.


I like the work flow in SINE. I've felt that way when using JXL Brass.

But for me, the legatos do bother me to the point that, I would want to use the Kontakt version if its available.
Kontakt version does have legato issues too, that's why I like being able to go under the hood. (which is why I requested such a feature for SINE in my previous post. And thinking of switching if such feature becomes available.)

I think we have different opinions because we consider the importance of legato differently.
And I think that's fine. (Some people want really good legato, some are fine with mediocre ones, others think they don't really need legatos in sample libraries in the first place)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Just to be sure, your theory is that Sascha Knorr imported his old MIDI, and thought "meh, could be better with some tweaks... But that'll do it for the official brand new walkthrough video".
> 
> Right?


What's your theory?


----------



## ummon

Robin said:


> I just noticed that OT used the same piece showcasing the Sine version for Berlin Brass in their walkthroughs as they used 5 years ago to showcase the Kontakt version, so we get a direct comparison between the two on a demo made by Sascha.


Kontakt version has this beautiful attack swell which blooms before sustain. I'd really like to hear if it's possible to replicate that attack swell with Sine.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What's your theory?


My theory is that the two versions of Berlin Brass sound pretty different (and everyone can have his preference), and it’s not because of user error. Especially not in a video that is supposed to sell the product!


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Just to be sure, your theory is that Sascha Knorr imported his old MIDI, and thought "meh, could be better with some tweaks... But that'll do it for the official brand new walkthrough video".
> 
> Right?


My theory would be that they had so much to do getting ready for the release and that the midi played well enough that no one thought it worth raising the priority on optimizing it. I can both see how that might happen and think that they might now be a little horrified that they let it happen.


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> My theory is that the two versions of Berlin Brass sound pretty different (and everyone can have his preference), and it’s not because of user error. Especially not in a video that is supposed to sell the product!


I agree that they sound different. But they’d sound different even if the loud parts of the second one were a little better executed. (And my sense from other things I’ve heard is that the Sine version is capable of a better execution than what was presented here.)


----------



## Jett Hitt

I found the difference between the two rather startling. @jbuhler's thesis sounds plausible and maybe even probable. I have heard that they were flying by the seat of their pants to get this released in time for BF. I am guessing that there will be updates coming to rectify some of the stuff they let slide.


----------



## alchemist

ummon said:


> Kontakt version has this beautiful attack swell which blooms before sustain. I'd really like to hear if it's possible to replicate that attack swell with Sine.


Do you mean the "sustain soft" articulation? In the Kontakt legato patch, it changes the attack sample based on note velocity (soft, immediate, hard). In SINE you have to keyswitch to different attacks or set it up in the poly switch mode like below.

It doesn't work as well as the Kontakt version though, the new FFF dynamics in the normal sustains don't seem to be in the accented sustain (which has the same dynamic range as the kontakt version), so when you start with an accented sustain and transition to a normal sustain, there is a massive jump in volume.


----------



## dhmusic

alchemist said:


> Do you mean the "sustain soft" articulation? In the Kontakt legato patch, it changes the attack sample based on note velocity (soft, immediate, hard). In SINE you have to keyswitch to different attacks or set it up in the poly switch mode like below.
> 
> It doesn't work as well as the Kontakt version though, the new FFF dynamics in the normal sustains don't seem to be in the accented sustain (which has the same dynamic range as the kontakt version), so when you start with an accented sustain and transition to a normal sustain, there is a massive jump in volume.



Yeah a few of these still have some pretty big issues. What's lame is you can really hear the potential in the direction they're going with some of these articulations, the runs in particular. But there are enough issues with the spatialization and mapping errors that it can be cumbersome to work with. I'm sure they're working on it right now though.

I can't imagine they'd proudly put this out if they didn't think holding off would be a huge financial risk. I can't imagine the pressure we put all these devs under this time of year.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Give it 1-2 months I reckon this will be their first priority to fix.

Side note: Is it possible to reorder my collection? f annoying scrolling all the way down past the free stuff I downloaded first, just to reach berlin strings everytime I create a new track...


----------



## dzilizzi

Can we save presets? I haven't checked yet.


----------



## dhmusic

dzilizzi said:


> Can we save presets? I haven't checked yet.


Yup. It's the little floppy disk icon by your username


----------



## alchemist

Hendrixon said:


> I just compared the Horns Ensemble Legato, its superior in SINE in every aspect.
> First off all in kontakt its sluggish and the tails collide and smear... sine has NONE of that.


An example challenging this statement lol 

First Kontakt, then Sine, one with sine at mod 75 to match the similar dynamic of kontakt, other example sine at mod 127. The only adjustment I made was slightly lowering any velocities that triggered retongue instead of slur.


----------



## djrustycans

axb312 said:


> In Kontakt, you could easily morph between say, lower dynamic Brass in Ark 2 and Higher Dynamic Brass in Ark 1, creating a kind of full dynamic range instrument.
> 
> Waiting for something similar in Sine (The ability to crossfade between instruments from different libraries).


You can set this up in Sine by assigning two different libraries/patches to the same midi channel. 

Then, you can load 2 versions of each articulation you want to xfade (using duplicate) into the polymap and turn down the volume of the first articulation layer so it is silent. Then the Polymap CC will transition from the silent layer into the regular articulation. 

Do the opposite with the 2nd articulation and turn down the volume of the 2nd layer.

It’s a workaround - but possible!


----------



## dzilizzi

dhmusic said:


> Yup. It's the little floppy disk icon by your username


So you should be able to set up a bunch of basic instruments and save as a preset? That's probably easier than hunting through the library every time. unless you get a crazy amount of presets.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

I‘m really considering to get the bundle. Always loved the sound. As already said, I‘m also very surprised that the strings can sound that dry. Maybe it‘s a Kontakt vs SINE thing. In my opinion, Kontakt legatos are always on the wetter side, maybe because of crossfades and scripting limitations, other algorithms, I don‘t know.

Really love all of the new walkthroughs, sounds good so far. Having watched them several times to get all the information. 

Sorry for not having read all of the posts in this thread: Some reported issues with the brass. In the walkthrough it is said (can‘t remember exactly where) that velocity switches between slurred and tongued legato. Maybe this is the issue with the disconnected legato sound? Just an idea… I think in the Kontakt version you had velocity switching the attacks, not the legato type, right?


----------



## dhmusic

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I‘m really considering to get the bundle. Always loved the sound. As already said, I‘m also very surprised that the strings can sound that dry. Maybe it‘s a Kontakt vs SINE thing. In my opinion, Kontakt legatos are always on the wetter side, maybe because of crossfades and scripting limitations, other algorithms, I don‘t know.
> 
> Really love all of the new walkthroughs, sounds good so far. Having watched them several times to get all the information.
> 
> Sorry for not having read all of the posts in this thread: Some reported issues with the brass. In the walkthrough it is said (can‘t remember exactly where) that velocity switches between slurred and tongued legato. Maybe this is the issue with the disconnected legato sound? Just an idea… I think in the Kontakt version you had velocity switching the attacks, not the legato type, right?


A lot of these brass issues don't have a workaround unfortunately. Like the transition being panned differently than the main sample. It isn't everywhere but it's enough that it's pretty noticeable.


----------



## Scalms

alchemist said:


> An example challenging this statement lol
> 
> First Kontakt, then Sine, one with sine at mod 75 to match the similar dynamic of kontakt, other example sine at mod 127. The only adjustment I made was slightly lowering any velocities that triggered retongue instead of slur.


are these both just Tree mics?


----------



## Jett Hitt

I finally got an SSD and started to download. OMFG one mic for one instrument is taking an hour to download. I feared this might happen, as last year it took 8 days to download BWW. At this rate, it will be Xmas before I get all four libraries downloaded.


----------



## alchemist

Scalms said:


> are these both just Tree mics?


Tree and ORTF (slightly panned to the left)


----------



## Casiquire

Not to rub it in or anything but I've had fairly normal download times here. The winds were done in a couple hours. All of them.


----------



## Scalms

Berlin Brass sonic signature....

Is everyone generally happy with the tone? I'm thinking of getting it and I'm a bit worried that Sine has "smoothed" things out too much (sterilized is another word) and taken away a little of the humanness of the recordings (and I'm not talking about chair squeaks and coughs here). 

I can't quite tell with the limited demos. Sine certainly feels more upfront and dryer, which is odd to me if Sine and Kontakt are both Tree mics in the same spot at Teldex??? Did they mix other mics into the SINE tree? 

I'm less concerned about legatos, and more about other details, such as others have mentioned, including natural arcs of the performance. Can anyone comment on the differences between the two? and perhaps keep posting demos/examples?

thanks in advance


----------



## alchemist

Scalms said:


> Berlin Brass sonic signature....
> 
> Is everyone generally happy with the tone? I'm thinking of getting it and I'm a bit worried that Sine has "smoothed" things out too much (sterilized is another word) and taken away a little of the humanness of the recordings (and I'm not talking about chair squeaks and coughs here).


I've noticed this too and been talking about it with a few composers. There really is a subtle difference in tone in both the strings and brass. A little less noticeable in the woodwinds. The strings don't have the same silky presence that's in the kontakt version, it's lost some of that sparkle. The brass is rounder too, more woolly, less sizzle.


----------



## Casiquire

Scalms said:


> Berlin Brass sonic signature....
> 
> Is everyone generally happy with the tone? I'm thinking of getting it and I'm a bit worried that Sine has "smoothed" things out too much (sterilized is another word) and taken away a little of the humanness of the recordings (and I'm not talking about chair squeaks and coughs here).
> 
> I can't quite tell with the limited demos. Sine certainly feels more upfront and dryer, which is odd to me if Sine and Kontakt are both Tree mics in the same spot at Teldex??? Did they mix other mics into the SINE tree?
> 
> I'm less concerned about legatos, and more about other details, such as others have mentioned, including natural arcs of the performance. Can anyone comment on the differences between the two? and perhaps keep posting demos/examples?
> 
> thanks in advance


I'll elaborate more once I've had more experience with SINE, but overall i don't notice a major difference in the presence of room between SINE and Kontakt. It's possible that I'm missing something. Also it's very much possible for the same recordings to sound different just depending on what they did with the envelopes, so I'm not ruling it out. It just isn't something I'm noticing.


----------



## borisb2

Scalms said:


> Berlin Brass sonic signature....
> 
> Is everyone generally happy with the tone?


Didnt have Berlin Brass before - just started downloading some instruments. I can share a lot of the critics about the rushed sale (stopped downloading BS after I found out the issue with the unusable leader mics), but Berlin Brass, oh my god that has potential. It sounds soo good - i did love AR1 and CSB-horns quite a bit, but new Horns Ensemble from Berlin Brass might replace all that in my template - same for the trumpets.. and I didnt even touch the solo instruments yet


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

So I am testing out the snares in Sine vs Kontakt and the snares are noticeably more dull. Any ideas why this could be? Type and mics are matching.


----------



## Scalms

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> So I am testing out the snares in Sine vs Kontakt and the snares are noticeably more dull. Any ideas why this could be? Type and mics are matching.


uh-oh. I'm just about ready to pull the trigger for the percussion, and the snares were one of the selling points. I've been listening to the demos from previous years and salivating at getting this set. All the snares playing together...wow, but hopefully someone can confirm this...


----------



## Scalms

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> So I am testing out the snares in Sine vs Kontakt and the snares are noticeably more dull. Any ideas why this could be? Type and mics are matching.


can you post an example? curious now...


----------



## dhmusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> So I am testing out the snares in Sine vs Kontakt and the snares are noticeably more dull. Any ideas why this could be? Type and mics are matching.





Scalms said:


> uh-oh. I'm just about ready to pull the trigger for the percussion, and the snares were one of the selling points. I've been listening to the demos from previous years and salivating at getting this set. All the snares playing together...wow, but hopefully someone can confirm this...


I really like the snares tbh. playing with em now. Might just need to find new mic preferences.


----------



## Scalms

dhmusic said:


> I really like the snares tbh. playing with em now. Might just need to find new mic preferences.


thanks. do you have the kontakt version for comparison?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

View attachment 2021-11-24_10-26-20.mp4

It's not _huge _but there is a roll off. They have obviously tampered thinking they've made it better. Maybe it works better in a mix? I dunno.

Also I could be crazy but there sounds like almost a doubling/phasing in the sine version.

Edit: It is definitely playing more than 1 sample and phasing what the shit.

Edit Edit: It's a togglable option. Sheesh.


----------



## dhmusic

Scalms said:


> thanks. do you have the kontakt version for comparison?


Yeah. I'll probably use the SINE version for convenience + it sounds good to me so far. Haven't checked everything. The Mic merge is going to save a ton of ram.


----------



## dhmusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> View attachment 2021-11-24_10-26-20.mp4
> 
> It's not _huge _but there is a roll off. They have obviously tampered thinking they've made it better. Maybe it works better in a mix? I dunno.
> 
> Also I could be crazy but there sounds like almost a doubling in the sine version.


Turn off X-Fade


----------



## Scalms

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> View attachment 2021-11-24_10-26-20.mp4
> 
> It's not _huge _but there is a roll off. They have obviously tampered thinking they've made it better. Maybe it works better in a mix? I dunno.
> 
> Also I could be crazy but there sounds like almost a doubling/phasing in the sine version.


yeah i can hear it, def more presence in the kontakt, sounds more clear. Now that's a bit of a bummer because it's always easier to roll that off then add it back in.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

dhmusic said:


> Turn off X-Fade


Yeah but I certainly dont want my perc to be cc dependant. 

As far as I can tell, the Sine version is triggering more than 1 sample and phasing because of it. That's bad


----------



## dhmusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Yeah but I certainly dont want my perc to be cc dependant.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the Sine version is triggering more than 1 sample and phasing because of it. That's bad


Turn off x-fade in Velocity mode lol

"Switch"


----------



## alchemist

Scalms said:


> Berlin Brass sonic signature....
> 
> Is everyone generally happy with the tone? I'm thinking of getting it and I'm a bit worried that Sine has "smoothed" things out too much (sterilized is another word) and taken away a little of the humanness of the recordings (and I'm not talking about chair squeaks and coughs here).





alchemist said:


> I've noticed this too and been talking about it with a few composers. There really is a subtle difference in tone in both the strings and brass. A little less noticeable in the woodwinds. The strings don't have the same silky presence that's in the kontakt version, it's lost some of that sparkle. The brass is rounder too, more woolly, less sizzle.


To elaborate a little, I hope this can demonstrates what I mean. It's much easier to notice when you have it under your fingers, but I think you should be able to hear a little difference. It's subtle but there's just a bit less sizzle in sine, it's a rounder sound. 

First kontakt, then sine.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

dhmusic said:


> Turn off x-fade in Velocity mode lol
> 
> "Switch"


oh right...Why would they have that on by default. Fk they're not doing themselves any favours here.


----------



## Hendrixon

alchemist said:


> An example challenging this statement lol
> 
> First Kontakt, then Sine, one with sine at mod 75 to match the similar dynamic of kontakt, other example sine at mod 127. The only adjustment I made was slightly lowering any velocities that triggered retongue instead of slur.


That's what I hear (Horns Ensemble Legato)


----------



## artomatic

Has BS been lower than 50% off?


----------



## Scalms

alchemist said:


> To elaborate a little, I hope this can demonstrates what I mean. It's much easier to notice when you have it under your fingers, but I think you should be able to hear a little difference. It's subtle but there's just a bit less sizzle in sine, it's a rounder sound.
> 
> First kontakt, then sine.


yeah, thanks. I can hear it a bit. yes, this was more subtle. 

I'm beginning to think they adjusted the mics in all the libraries and perhaps reduced a bit of the "Noise" in the process, thereby removing a bit of sizzle/sparkle/air, which although subtle, removes a little bit of life which makes Teldex great. I don't think it's a tremendous difference, but perhaps enough to affect some patches more than others


----------



## Hendrixon

artomatic said:


> Has BS been lower than 50% off?


Nope, it used to be not often that Berlin Main went 50%, but now its a second BF in a row that they offer it at that discount (even though last year they said this deal will never happen again lol)


----------



## alchemist

Hendrixon said:


> That's what I hear


How odd haha, quick question, are you using the kontakt legato patch or the sustain legato in capsule? Mine doesn't perform like that. Also are you triggering any retonguing in sine with velocity?

But here are mine. Same midi (using slur only).


----------



## Casiquire

Hendrixon said:


> That's what I hear (Horns Ensemble Legato)


Actually SINE sounds better here


----------



## Scalms

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> So I am testing out the snares in Sine vs Kontakt and the snares are noticeably more dull. Any ideas why this could be? Type and mics are matching.


do all the snares have this issue or just the one?


----------



## Hendrixon

alchemist said:


> How odd haha, quick question, are you using the kontakt legato patch or the sustain legato in capsule? Mine doesn't perform like that. Also are you triggering any retonguing in sine with velocity?
> 
> But here are mine. Same midi (using slur only).


When I first compared them for my self I used the single articulation and it was really bad.
Then I heard your sample and it sounded nothing like mine, it was way better!
I loaded the multi and there it sounded like yours  
It seems the single art legato is made from the Sus Soft, while the one in the multi is obviously the Sus Imm  

Any way, the Imm legato obviously works better, but still, in my samples above I used the Imm legato.
I tried in SINE both slurred and both retognued... at least in my test there was no big difference so in the sample I left it as the default slurred+retognued.


----------



## Hendrixon

Casiquire said:


> Actually SINE sounds better here


That was my point, its not a one sided story


----------



## Hendrixon

Btw in the sustains there is no change in sounds (at least that I can hear) but in the legato samples there is. it seems they de-verbed the samples in order to get a better legato source.
That's why the kontakt is sloppy and the sine is tight... at least in the way I play them.


----------



## alchemist

Casiquire said:


> Actually SINE sounds better here


This is because I'm certain it's not the Kontakt legato patch, it sounds like the sustain patch in capsule with legato turned on.



Hendrixon said:


> I loaded the multi and there it sounded like yours
> It seems the single art legato is made from the Sus Soft, while the one in the multi is obviously the Sus Imm
> 
> Any way, the Imm legato obviously works better, but still, in my samples above I used the Imm legato.
> I tried in SINE both slurred and both retognued... at least in my test there was no big difference so in the sample I left it as the default slurred+retognued.


The single legato actually has all 3 attacks, depending on note velocity. Soft, Immediate and Accented  (another reason I love the Kontakt patch so much haha)

The retongue will add more definition to a transition, if you switch to it in Kontakt it will also have that immediate transition.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Scalms said:


> do all the snares have this issue or just the one?


So far the 3 I looked at all where more dull.


----------



## Casiquire

alchemist said:


> This is because I'm certain it's not the Kontakt legato patch, it sounds like the sustain patch in capsule with legato turned on.
> 
> 
> The single legato actually has all 3 attacks, depending on note velocity. Soft, Immediate and Accented  (another reason I love the Kontakt patch so much haha)
> 
> The retongue will add more definition to a transition, if you switch to it in Kontakt it will also have that immediate transition.


That's pretty much exactly what legato patches ARE with OT


----------



## alchemist

Casiquire said:


> That's pretty much exactly what legato patches ARE with OT


That's not true, the dedicated legato patches of bst and bbr have a lot more going on under the hood. Completely different to what's within capsule.


----------



## Casiquire

alchemist said:


> That's not true, the dedicated legato patches of bst and bbr have a lot more going on under the hood. Completely different to what's within capsule.


How do you mean?


----------



## alchemist

Casiquire said:


> How do you mean?


I mean exactly what I said haha, loading a sustain articulation inside capsule and turning legato on is not the same as the specifically scripted individual kontakt legato patches. How do you mean how do I mean? lol


----------



## Casiquire

alchemist said:


> I mean exactly what I said haha, loading a sustain articulation inside capsule and turning legato on is not the same as the specifically scripted individual kontakt legato patches. How do you mean how do I mean? lol


Ah you mean the separate patch. Ok I'm on the same page now!


----------



## Hendrixon

alchemist said:


> This is because I'm certain it's not the Kontakt legato patch, it sounds like the sustain patch in capsule with legato turned on.
> 
> 
> The single legato actually has all 3 attacks, depending on note velocity. Soft, Immediate and Accented  (another reason I love the Kontakt patch so much haha)
> 
> The retongue will add more definition to a transition, if you switch to it in Kontakt it will also have that immediate transition.


01. Horn Ensemble Legato?
Tested it, true it has all 3 (soft imm and acc) in it, velocity switched.
But its not like that one is REAL legato samples and the rest are scripted legato, the switch in capsule loads the legato samples for the respected arts.


----------



## alchemist

Casiquire said:


> Ah you mean the separate patch. Ok I'm on the same page now!


I was just writing that it's hard to express mood in forum texting, but I'm totally being jovial with you haha. I just realized as words alone it might come across arrogant..


----------



## Hendrixon

alchemist said:


> individual kontakt legato patches


What _patches_... there is just one single legato


----------



## Casiquire

alchemist said:


> I was just writing that it's hard to express mood in forum texting, but I'm totally being jovial with you haha. I just realized as words alone it might come across arrogant..


I didn't take it that way but i stayed neutral just in case



Hendrixon said:


> What _patches_... there is just one single legato


There are individual legato patches in kontakt, as opposed to loading a capsule multi


----------



## Hendrixon

Casiquire said:


> I didn't take it that way but i stayed neutral just in case
> 
> 
> There are individual legato patches in kontakt, as opposed to loading a capsule multi


I see just one


----------



## Casiquire

Hendrixon said:


> I see just one


Oh! Because across several libraries, there are many of them.


----------



## Hendrixon

alchemist said:


> The retongue will add more definition to a transition, if you switch to it in Kontakt it will also have that immediate transition.


retongue in kontakt??
Man I'm lost lol


----------



## Hendrixon

Casiquire said:


> Oh! Because across several libraries, there are many of them.


We're talking specifically about "Horn Ensemble"


----------



## alchemist

Hendrixon said:


> 01. Horn Ensemble Legato?
> Tested it, true it has all 3 (soft imm and acc) in it, velocity switched.
> But its not like that one is REAL legato samples and the rest are scripted legato, the switch in capsule loads the legato samples for the respected arts.


Yeah it's true that it's not fake transitions inside capsule, however the way it handles the transitions is different. I was chatting to OT about it years ago, the single legato patches are scripted differently, way more going on under the hood. Which is why they perform completely differently to each other.

These two are *not *the same thing.


----------



## Hendrixon

Mine doesn't look that way!





Capsule 2.5.2???


----------



## jbuhler

FrozenIcicle said:


> Side note: Is it possible to reorder my collection? f annoying scrolling all the way down past the free stuff I downloaded first, just to reach berlin strings everytime I create a new track...


As far as I know, you can’t reorder the libraries on the library page. It’s another maddening aspect of Sine that should have a very easy remedy.


----------



## alchemist

Hendrixon said:


> Mine doesn't look that way!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Capsule 2.5.2???


I think you may have missed one of the updates! I got BBR the day it was announced, so there have been some updates along the way which I can't remember details of, but maybe have a search through the emails? Or shoot OT a message and see if they can get you the latest.


----------



## Hendrixon

alchemist said:


> I think you may have missed one of the updates! I got BBR the day it was announced, so there have been some updates along the way which I can't remember details of, but maybe have a search through the emails? Or shoot OT a message and see if they can get you the latest.


You got it on day 1... I got it exactly a year ago
Yours is 2.5.2 and mine is 2.5
I'm going to sleep!


----------



## alchemist

Hendrixon said:


> You got it on day 1... I got it exactly a year ago
> Yours is 2.5.2 and mine is 2.5
> I'm going to sleep!


lol at least you get a new update out of it all, I'm glad it wasn't for nothing!


----------



## lettucehat

Do we have a full accounting of patch differences, like in strings? I don't remember seeing "serial" patches of anything before but I don't own it.

And do I understand correctly that the playable runs patches in the various libraries are new or vastly improved or different or something?


----------



## jbuhler

lettucehat said:


> I don't remember seeing "serial" patches of anything before but I don't own it.


I think it's new, and the spic serial has 24 RR. They said something in the walkthrough about how these had been made out of performances, and so my best guess is that they derive from the repetition patches, at least for the spic serial. I'm not sure about the pizzicatos, which seem to be mapped differently than in Kontakt, since the pizz perc is not present in Sine and there is no pizz repetitions in Kontakt.


----------



## jbuhler

lettucehat said:


> And do I understand correctly that the playable runs patches in the various libraries are new or vastly improved or different or something?


I think they are rescripted from the runs and/or agile legatos. They were separate in Kontakt but only the runs appear in Sine. In his video comparing the legatos of Sine and Kontakt, Hendrik mentioned the run legato is new and improved. Kontakt also has the ostinato arp legato, which doesn't seem to have been ported yet.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

View attachment 2021-11-24_20-33-55.mp4


Honestly this can't be serious


----------



## Robin

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> View attachment 2021-11-24_20-33-55.mp4
> 
> 
> Honestly this can't be serious


Can confirm this behavior on my end.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

cmon wtf are you guys doing this is horrendous. 


View attachment 2021-11-24_20-38-31.mp4


----------



## Raphioli

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> cmon wtf are you guys doing this is horrendous.
> 
> 
> View attachment 2021-11-24_20-38-31.mp4



I guess the best solution right now at least for Berlin Brass (for the fff layer) is to,
use the Kontakt version for legatos and only use the legato patches in SINE if you need that extra dynamic layer for a specific line.

I wonder how people at @OrchestralTools would evaluate this difference.
Would they still think the SINE version is better *in this specific comparison*?
If they do it would be concerning, because they would think there's nothing to fix.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> cmon wtf are you guys doing this is horrendous.
> 
> 
> View attachment 2021-11-24_20-38-31.mp4


Look, I'm sure they are reading this thread and collating all the bugs to quickly fix up in the next update. And I'm sure they are going to read my ask to discount Arks for BF/Christmas sale


----------



## Vik

FrozenIcicle said:


> I'm sure they are reading this thread and collating all the bugs to quickly fix up in the next update


They actually posted, not long ago, that reports like these, in forum threads, have a tendency to be overseen unless they are reported directly to them, so I hope you guys have time to do that.


----------



## muk

Oh dear. I actually wanted to buy Berlin Brass. But that current legato in Sine is out of the question. And I don't have much trust in Orchestral Tools to fix most things quickly, if ever. So I am not buying now in the hope of updates that may or may not come. The Kontakt version, on the other hand, does not have the new fortissimo-layer, and no ongoing support. This kind of makes both versions a hard pass at the moment.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Vik said:


> They actually posted, not long ago, that reports like these, in forum threads, have a tendency to be overseen unless they are reported directly to them, so I hope you guys have time to do that.


True but they just ported and discounted their massive libraries onto their new sampler that still isn't quite 100% there yet. No way aren't they reading feedback


----------



## Vik

FrozenIcicle said:


> No way aren't they reading feedback


I'm sure they do, but if I had been in a situation where I could install the new versions now and found as many problems as have been reported here, I would still have reported them.


----------



## Jose7822

I agree.

Posting these videos/clips here and not reporting the bugs directly to OT is not the most efficient way to get them fixed. Please, take the few extra minutes to follow through so that we can hope they’ll fix them in the near future.

Also, nobody replied to my last question in regards to how people with the full Berlin collection are installing them. How dare you?! 😂🤣 I just wanted to know if you have them installed in one SSD, or spread out so that each section of the orchestra is in its own SSD.

Thanks!!


----------



## Scalms

Can I ask, which (perhaps all) of the Berlin brass instruments in Kontakt are missing the fff? because some of the patches (like Trumpets ensemble I think) seems like it has it?


----------



## emilio_n

Jose7822 said:


> I agree.
> 
> Posting these videos/clips here and not reporting the bugs directly to OT is not the most efficient way to get them fixed. Please, take the few extra minutes to follow through so that we can hope they’ll fix them in the near future.
> 
> Also, nobody replied to my last question in regards to how people with the full Berlin collection are installing them. How dare you?! 😂🤣 I just wanted to know if you have them installed in one SSD, or spread out so that each section of the orchestra is in its own SSD.
> 
> Thanks!!


100% agree. This is not an official forum of OT. I am sure they are reading but the only way to push them is to check the errors.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Scalms said:


> Can I ask, which (perhaps all) of the Berlin brass instruments in Kontakt are missing the fff? because some of the patches (like Trumpets ensemble I think) seems like it has it?


It's mostly all the sustain articulations, in all instruments. Marcatos and all shorts have everything they need!


----------



## Raphioli

I personally don't think its completely a waste.
It would warn potential buyers. Its hard to spot these things in demos.
If I was new and bought the SINE bundle and ended up noticing something like what's posted in the video,
I would be very upset. (of course it would depend on how much you value legatos)
And unfortunately you can't get refunds for sample libraries from most developers.
In other words, the buyer is risking *a lot*.

If I was a new buyer, I would appreciate videos like what @SimonCharlesHanna posted, or audio examples posted by other people.


----------



## Jose7822

Raphioli said:


> I personally don't think its completely a waste.
> It would warn potential buyers. Its hard to spot these things in demos.
> If I was new and bought the SINE bundle and ended up noticing something like what's posted in the video,
> I would be very upset. (of course it would depend on how much you value legatos)
> And unfortunately you can't get refunds for sample libraries from most developers.
> In other words, the buyer is risking *a lot*.
> 
> If I was a new buyer, I would appreciate videos like what @SimonCharlesHanna posted, or audio examples posted by other people.


I’m not suggesting that people shouldn’t post bugs here. I’m just asking them to ALSO report them directly to OT since this forum is not the best way for them to acknowledge bugs. Considering how long this thread is, they may or may not see all of them. That’s all I’m saying.


----------



## Raphioli

Jose7822 said:


> I’m not suggesting that people shouldn’t post bugs here. I’m just asking them to ALSO report them directly to OT


You're correct. I completely agree on that.


----------



## jbuhler

muk said:


> I don't have much trust in Orchestral Tools to fix most things quickly, if ever.


This to me is the real problem. There are still legato miscues in BSS that were reported within days of that library coming out that are still not fixed. And I’ll say the same thing about the Kontakt version. Those have bugs that have persisted for years.


----------



## ism

Does anyone recall a Berlin Strings vs SCS legato thread?


----------



## Vik

ism said:


> Does anyone recall a Berlin Strings vs SCS legato thread?




This one?




__





Poll: Berlin Strings vs Spitfire (playability and sound)


There were some comparisons on this forum around when Mural and Berlin Strings were launched. Since then, both have been updated and additional volumes have been released from both companies. I ended up with Mural, and based on my sound preferences (based on demos; I don't have Berlin Strings)...




vi-control.net


----------



## jbuhler

Vik said:


> This one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poll: Berlin Strings vs Spitfire (playability and sound)
> 
> 
> There were some comparisons on this forum around when Mural and Berlin Strings were launched. Since then, both have been updated and additional volumes have been released from both companies. I ended up with Mural, and based on my sound preferences (based on demos; I don't have Berlin Strings)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


That’s a fun trip down memory lane before the consensus on Berlin Strings and SSS had locked into place.


----------



## axb312

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> View attachment 2021-11-24_20-33-55.mp4
> 
> 
> Honestly this can't be serious


Sounds good for the price...


----------



## JTB

Do the guys at OT have a drug problem?. Maybe it's ADHD. Maybe they just don't give a hoot whether things work or not. Baffling!!

Oh!, that right BF sales. I all makes sense now.


----------



## styledelk

Ahh, there's the respect I've come to expect!


----------



## jbuhler

JTB said:


> Do the guys at OT have a drug problem?. Maybe it's ADHD. Maybe they just don't give a hoot whether things work or not. Baffling!!
> 
> Oh!, that right BF sales. I all makes sense now.


In retrospect maybe trying to release 4 giant libraries all at the same time wasn’t such a good idea, especially since OT is still a relatively small firm.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

jbuhler said:


> In retrospect maybe trying to release 4 giant libraries all at the same time wasn’t such a good idea, especially since OT is still a relatively small firm.


Well, the beta testing team suddenly got a lot bigger. 🤔


----------



## Aitcpiano

I was considering the full bundle, but this has all confirmed that I'm not buying the full bundle to be stuck with it in SINE only and I refuse to pay an extra amount to buy the Kontakt versions then an extra 10 percent to upgrade to SINE, if you are buying the SINE bundle now, then if you want, you should also get the Kontakt versions. Also, I don't like that the Berlin orchestra is only free for buyers of the full bundle up untill the 2nd December. After this time they won't give the Berlin orchestra for free to buyers of the full bundle, you have to buy the full bundle between now and the 2nd December to also get the Berlin orchestra, which I think could have been useful for laptop use. So essentially I have to buy the full Berlin main orchestra now with it's apparent issues to get the free Berlin orchestra, or wait to see if some of these issues are resolved in updates and then loose out on getting the Berlin orchestra.


----------



## Zanshin

Aitcpiano said:


> I was considering the full bundle...


Yup, pretty much where I am at.

Plus...



jbuhler said:


> This to me is the real problem. There are still legato miscues in BSS that were reported within days of that library coming out that are still not fixed. And I’ll say the same thing about the Kontakt version. Those have bugs that have persisted for years.


... makes me extremely hesitant. I'm OK with problems at release, but if I can't expect they will get fixed based on a developer's history, it's a nonstarter. It is too bad because Berlin can sound fucking lovely as we all know.


----------



## jbuhler

So the bundle is currently 30% off and the edu discount gives 40% off. Once the sale is done, the 30% off the bundle price disappears, but does the 40% edu remain as the usual discount. Trying to gauge whether I can postpone this purchase.


----------



## Aitcpiano

jbuhler said:


> So the bundle is currently 30% off and the edu discount gives 40% off. Once the sale is done, the 30% off the bundle price disappears, but does the 40% edu remain as the usual discount. Trying to gauge whether I can postpone this purchase.


That's what I was thinking as well. If you do postpone it and buy after the 2nd December you would not get the Berlin Orchestra for free.


----------



## jbuhler

Aitcpiano said:


> That's what I was thinking as well. If you do postpone it and buy after the 2nd December you would not get the Berlin Orchestra for free.


I don't know about that. I'm not sure I care about Berlin Orchestra. But there are lots of reasons, only a few of which have to do with issues with the Sine port, that I'd prefer to wait a few months to make this purchase.


----------



## coprhead6

Are the swells or crescendos in any of the SINE versions able to be stretched or compressed (dare I ask, tempo locked)? That’s huge for me. 
Any time stretching at all in these libraries besides the 16th repetitions?


----------



## Aitcpiano

jbuhler said:


> I don't know about that. I'm not sure I care about Berlin Orchestra. But there are lots of reasons, only a few of which have to do with issues with the Sine port, that I'd prefer to wait a few months to make this purchase.


Same here, my main reason for holding back in due to not getting the Kontakt version and regarding the things i'm reading about the issues with the SINE port. The cut off is 5th December for getting the Berlin Orchestra free not the 2nd.


----------



## Aitcpiano

I just think that if you are paying out for the full main bundle price now then you should just get the kontakt version as well, this would resolve many things. Everyone can then easily start transferring over to SINE when updates start coming in to improve any issues apparent. I don't feel like paying over 1000 to then be stuck in SINE to then have to wait months/years for updates. I experienced this with BBCSO Pro. It had a lot of issues on release and many of these took months to a year to resolve. I don't really feel like paying over 1000 to be a public beta testa and then have no access to Kontakt version were some issues don't seem to be apparent.


----------



## lettucehat

Aitcpiano said:


> I was considering the full bundle, but this has all confirmed that I'm not buying the full bundle to be stuck with it in SINE only and I refuse to pay an extra amount to buy the Kontakt versions then an extra 10 percent to upgrade to SINE, if you are buying the SINE bundle now, then if you want, you should also get the Kontakt versions. Also, I don't like that the Berlin orchestra is only free for buyers of the full bundle up untill the 2nd December. After this time they won't give the Berlin orchestra for free to buyers of the full bundle, you have to buy the full bundle between now and the 2nd December to also get the Berlin orchestra, which I think could have been useful for laptop use. So essentially I have to buy the full Berlin main orchestra now with it's apparent issues to get the free Berlin orchestra, or wait to see if some of these issues are resolved in updates and then loose out on getting the Berlin orchestra.


Yep this is where OT's policy on being completely secretive about future plans makes the whole situation really unfair for consumers. You can share bugs on this forum or directly with them or whatever, but while the policy is not to discuss their update and revision plans, these BF deals become a tough choice being made mostly in the dark. I don't consider the Sine versions equivalent products based on everything I'm seeing and hearing - but people will have to pay to eventually upgrade from Kontakt to Sine if and when they figure these issues out.


----------



## jbuhler

Aitcpiano said:


> Same here, my main reason for holding back in due to not getting the Kontakt version and regarding the things i'm reading about the issues with the SINE port. The cut off is 5th December for getting the Berlin Orchestra free not the 2nd.


I have the strings and from that experience I can say I’m not all that interested in the Kontakt versions. And I’m also not that concerned about the many issues that have been raised about the Sine port because so far the Sine version of the strings has sufficient redundancy that the problems with the port are more irritating than debilitating. (And it’s not like the Kontakt version was without issues.) But the timing of this sale is not ideal (and not just because it’s BF but also for other reasons), so it would be nice to postpone.


----------



## Pablocrespo

I was interested in the bundle, but I think I will pass if OT don´t make a clear statement of what their thoughts are about this issues are and how and if they plan to resolve them (and a clear timetable).

I think it is fair to ask when they don´t offer refunds or allow you to sell their products.


----------



## Hendrixon

A friend asked me, what is this 30% for the bundle? I have no idea...
Isn't everything simply 50% off right now? its not like they give another 30% on top of that.
Right?


----------



## lettucehat

Hendrixon said:


> A friend asked me, what is this 30% for the bundle? I have no idea...
> Isn't everything simply 50% off right now? its not like they give another 30% on top of that.
> Right?


If I remember the math I did earlier, the bundle is like adding up the four 50% off libraries right now. So that 30% off the bundle price was designed, I suppose, to bring it down to exactly that.


----------



## Marsen

Hendrixon said:


> You got it on day 1... I got it exactly a year ago
> Yours is 2.5.2 and mine is 2.5
> I'm going to sleep!


Looks like they have different Capsule versions for different libraries:


----------



## Evans

ummon said:


> Could anyone confirm that the passage around 0:56 is just a render error and has nothing to do with samples.



I do not get that when I load it up and play those notes at any variation of the modwheel.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I am beginning to feel that OT should really offer SINE owners a way to get the Kontakt libraries if they choose (even for a nominal fee to cover download costs). We have committed to OT's future with SINE by buying the SINE version, but when it comes down to it, we also need to use the libraries in a way that works - if Kontakt currently offers some functionality (like proper purging or more refined / adjustable legatos), then I don't see why OT would prevent loyal customers from using it. By not allowing us that option (in which by the way, we are willing to forego some improvements that are in the SINE conversion), those loyal customers are instead being forced to complain here and create a narrative that is likely going to prevent new customers from buying anything. @Hendrik-Schwarzer


----------



## ricoderks

LOVE the sound of Berlin Series. Actually was very interested in this offer. Think I'll wait a bit longer


----------



## TintoL

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> View attachment 2021-11-24_20-33-55.mp4
> 
> 
> Honestly this can't be serious


Wow, that can classified as a refund to me. LOL.


----------



## lettucehat

ricoderks said:


> LOVE the sound of Berlin Series. Actually was very interested in this offer. Think I'll wait a bit longer


OT make this guy happy and eventually we might get Project Colossal with some Berlin libraries!


----------



## ricoderks

lettucehat said:


> OT make this guy happy and eventually we might get Project Colossal with some Berlin libraries!


That would be awesome! Definitely would make that template! haha


----------



## Saxer

I don't know if this is a Logic or Mac thing... but it's incredible how CPU effective the Sine player works compared to Kontakt. The (more or less) same patches use about 10% of Kontakt's CPU in Sine. Not 10% less, only 10% in total!


----------



## Evans

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> View attachment 2021-11-24_20-33-55.mp4
> 
> 
> Honestly this can't be serious


Lots of issues like this specifically for the trumpets. Oof.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

emilio_n said:


> 100% agree. This is not an official forum of OT. I am sure they are reading but the only way to push them is to check the errors.





Jose7822 said:


> I agree.
> 
> Posting these videos/clips here and not reporting the bugs directly to OT is not the most efficient way to get them fixed. Please, take the few extra minutes to follow through so that we can hope they’ll fix them in the near future.
> 
> Also, nobody replied to my last question in regards to how people with the full Berlin collection are installing them. How dare you?! 😂🤣 I just wanted to know if you have them installed in one SSD, or spread out so that each section of the orchestra is in its own SSD.
> 
> Thanks!!


Sorry gents, I am not getting paid by to do quality testing. I post here to vent - I am simply not going to use these libraries for the time being (and of course keep this experience in mind for future purchasing decisions).

I also feel inclined to mention that I only downloaded Trumpet I and Trumpet I Zampano and well, you heard the results after I played around with them for less than 10 minutes. I stopped downloading the rest of the libraries at that moment. 

Also, I have in the past reported bugs and nothing has happened.

Jose I have the spread out and it's fine - not familiar with computers enough to know if having it all on 1 SSD is more/less efficient. I have all my spitfire on 1 SSD and it works fine.


----------



## Jose7822

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Sorry gents, I am not getting paid by to do quality testing. I post here to vent - I am simply not going to use these libraries for the time being (and of course keep this experience in mind for future purchasing decisions).
> 
> I also feel inclined to mention that I only downloaded Trumpet I and Trumpet I Zampano and well, you heard the results after I played around with them for less than 10 minutes. I stopped downloading the rest of the libraries at that moment.
> 
> Also, I have in the past reported bugs and nothing has happened.
> 
> Jose I have the spread out and it's fine - not familiar with computers enough to know if having it all on 1 SSD is more/less efficient. I have all my spitfire on 1 SSD and it works fine.


Hi Simon,

I understand if you don’t want to report the bugs, but I feel it is a missed opportunity to get them fixed. However, you said that you have reported bugs to them before and they didn’t fix them, which is sad because I was hoping that OT was a more responsive company. I guess the grass is always greener elsewhere. That said, I do prefer their sound at least.

BTW, thanks for answering my question about installing them 🙂👍


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Jose7822 said:


> Hi Simon,
> 
> I understand if you don’t want to report the bugs, but I feel it is a missed opportunity to get them fixed. However, you said that you have reported bugs to them before and they didn’t fix them, which is sad because I was hoping that OT was a more responsive company. I guess the grass is always greener elsewhere. That said, I do prefer their sound at least.
> 
> BTW, thanks for answering my question about installing them 🙂👍


If I find a really technical bug or something that appears in a somewhat obscure circumstance I will report it.

These aren't bugs.

This is slop and they know it. Me telling them that doesn't help them. And if they don't know it, there's no helping them.


----------



## borisb2

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I am beginning to feel that OT should really offer SINE owners a way to get the Kontakt libraries if they choose (even for a nominal fee to cover download costs). We have committed to OT's future with SINE by buying the SINE version, but when it comes down to it, we also need to use the libraries in a way that works - if Kontakt currently offers some functionality (like proper purging or more refined / adjustable legatos), then I don't see why OT would prevent loyal customers from using it. By not allowing us that option (in which by the way, we are willing to forego some improvements that are in the SINE conversion), those loyal customers are instead being forced to complain here and create a narrative that is likely going to prevent new customers from buying anything. @Hendrik-Schwarzer


+1^1000 ... (thats a very big number)

@Hendrik-Schwarzer
@OT_Tobias
...


----------



## Jett Hitt

OT's track record for fixing bugs isn't particularly good. It took them 9 months to fix the mic merge problem in BSS. However, OT is one of the major players in the sample industry, and it would be pretty naive to believe that they aren't going to fix these problems with their flagship libraries. Almost all of the complaints that I have heard are about Berlin Brass, and it seems pretty clear that they released this prematurely in order to have a showing on Black Friday, which @Mike Greene has said constitutes about 1/3 of his revenue for the year. It is probably the same for OT. I remember a few years ago when Spitfire released BBCSO (later known as Pro) prematurely, and that was a trainwreck. I have confidence that OT will fix the problems, but I am not optimistic about their timeline. It seems to me that the equitable thing to do would be to allow the new owners of Berlin Brass to download the Kontakt version, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.


----------



## jbuhler

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> If I find a really technical bug or something that appears in a somewhat obscure circumstance I will report it.
> 
> These aren't bugs.
> 
> This is slop and they know it. Me telling them that doesn't help them. And if they don't know it, there's no helping them.


They are bugs, at least the one with misfiring notes is, even if they are obvious and should have been caught before release. But stuff happens. Sometimes folks make bad calls. The issue isn’t that even obvious bugs make it into releases, it’s that they don’t always get fixed, even obvious ones, even when they’ve been reported.

Because the libraries are deep they also have built-in redundancy, which means there are almost always workarounds to any issue you encounter. I’ve not yet found an issue in the strings that I can’t work around. So I wouldn’t say the libraries are unusable as is. But folks should go into buying the libraries knowing there are real issues and that it’s possible you’ll still be working around these issues next year this time.

(edited for clarity)


----------



## lettucehat

Jett Hitt said:


> OT's track record for fixing bugs isn't particularly good. It took them 9 months to fix the mic merge problem in BSS. However, OT is one of the major players in the sample industry, and it would be pretty naive to believe that they aren't going to fix these problems with their flagship libraries. Almost all of the complaints that I have heard are about Berlin Brass, and it seems pretty clear that they released this prematurely in order to have a showing on Black Friday, which @Mike Greene has said constitutes about 1/3 of his revenue for the year. It is probably the same for OT. I remember a few years ago when Spitfire released BBCSO (later known as Pro) prematurely, and that was a trainwreck. I have confidence that OT will fix the problems, but I am not optimistic about their timeline. It seems to me that the equitable thing to do would be to allow the new owners of Berlin Brass to download the Kontakt version, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.


Agreed, on the last point especially. I'll personally wait until near the end of the sale window to see if they say more than just.. the legatos are better. Some kind of reversal to the Kontakt/Sine up/downgrade policy would take pretty much all the pressure off of this and they'd have all the time in the world to polish the Sine versions and way fewer people refusing to take the leap.


----------



## Jett Hitt

lettucehat said:


> Agreed, on the last point especially. I'll personally wait until near the end of the sale window to see if they say more than just.. the legatos are better. Some kind of reversal to the Kontakt/Sine up/downgrade policy would take pretty much all the pressure off of this and they'd have all the time in the world to polish the Sine versions and way fewer people refusing to take the leap.


@Hendrik-Schwarzer ^^^This^^^


----------



## Hendrixon

Interesting, in Trumpets Ensemble they didn't record a new FF layer, they actually recorded an F layer under the old FF... and added a separate FFF as a bonus.
It shows they used their ears


----------



## Chungus

I've been playing with the ports for a while now, and for the most part, I like it. But I've noticed some definite jank on the staccato articulation of horn 2. In that one of the round robbins is greatly out of tune on some lower notes, and many notes play an additional note an octave above or below the pitch it's actually supposed to be.

Bafflingly, none of this existed in the Kontakt version.


----------



## Aitcpiano

lettucehat said:


> Agreed, on the last point especially. I'll personally wait until near the end of the sale window to see if they say more than just.. the legatos are better. Some kind of reversal to the Kontakt/Sine up/downgrade policy would take pretty much all the pressure off of this and they'd have all the time in the world to polish the Sine versions and way fewer people refusing to take the leap.


That's the exact same stance that I have taken on this as well.


----------



## Jose7822

Chungus said:


> I've been playing with the ports for a while now, and for the most part, I like it. But I've noticed some definite jank on the staccato articulation of horn 2. In that one of the round robbins is greatly out of tune on some lower notes, and many notes play an additional note an octave above or below the pitch it's actually supposed to be.
> 
> Bafflingly, none of this existed in the Kontakt version.


Wow! That’s really bad, lmao. They have to fix that.


----------



## Chungus

Jose7822 said:


> Wow! That’s really bad, lmao. They have to fix that.


It's only 3 round robins that are the culprits, so it wouldn't be too hard to get around the issue. But yeah, it's - dare I say - cringe. Gonna report it, for sure.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

Aitcpiano said:


> I just think that if you are paying out for the full main bundle price now then you should just get the kontakt version as well, this would resolve many things. Everyone can then easily start transferring over to SINE when updates start coming in to improve any issues apparent. I don't feel like paying over 1000 to then be stuck in SINE to then have to wait months/years for updates. I experienced this with BBCSO Pro. It had a lot of issues on release and many of these took months to a year to resolve. I don't really feel like paying over 1000 to be a public beta testa and then have no access to Kontakt version were some issues don't seem to be apparent.


please forward to @OrchestralTools !


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

jbuhler said:


> Because the libraries are deep they also have built-in redundancy, which means there are almost always workarounds to any issue you encounter


I absolutely agree with you on this point and this is one of the reasons I love Berlin Brass (the Kontakt version). There will almost always be something that sounds right for what you're trying to achieve. 

However! If you have multiple ways of doing something, but 2 methods out of 3 sounds like the players are drunk... You're losing this redundancy, unfortunately. You're back with only one choice.


----------



## djrustycans

Chungus said:


> I've been playing with the ports for a while now, and for the most part, I like it. But I've noticed some definite jank on the staccato articulation of horn 2. In that one of the round robbins is greatly out of tune on some lower notes, and many notes play an additional note an octave above or below the pitch it's actually supposed to be.
> 
> Bafflingly, none of this existed in the Kontakt version.


I reported this a couple of days ago..!


----------



## djrustycans

Just want to point out that I was testing some differences between the Sine & Kontakt versions of Berlin Strings and noticed that I was working at 44.1 khz. At this point I preferred what I was hearing from Kontakt but when I changed the sample rate to 48k, the Sine version sounded almost identical in some cases. 

There must be cases where Kontakt’s SRC can sound better when working at lower rates than the samples were recorded at (48khz). 

It would be interesting to see whether this changes perceptions of the sonics between the other libraries when working at 48k or above.


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I absolutely agree with you on this point and this is one of the reasons I love Berlin Brass (the Kontakt version). There will almost always be something that sounds right for what you're trying to achieve.
> 
> However! If you have multiple ways of doing something, but 2 methods out of 3 sounds like the players are drunk... You're losing this redundancy, unfortunately. You're back with only one choice.


Certainly we'd prefer our players were sober more of the time. But so long as you are not constantly running up against deadends, or finding that there is no way to execute something credibly, then the library is not unusable. With Berlin Strings, at any rate, this has so far been the case. I would have preferred the library came out with fewer misfires, but so far I've always been able to find a workaround.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I keep seeing people say that owners of the complete collection will receive a copy of Berlin Orchestra. (Could be handy for a laptop I suppose.) But I haven’t seen this announcement. Has anyone seen it?


----------



## Aitcpiano

Jett Hitt said:


> I keep seeing people say that owners of the complete collection will receive a copy of Berlin Orchestra. (Could be handy for a laptop I suppose.) But I haven’t seen this announcement. Has anyone seen it?


You can get it free if you have buy the full bundle on SINE but it expires on the 5th December. So you wont get it free after that date apparently.


----------



## emilio_n

Aitcpiano said:


> You can get it free if you have buy the full bundle on SINE but it expires on the 5th December. So you wont get it free after that date apparently


The bundle is not only available during the sales, as far I know.


----------



## Aitcpiano

emilio_n said:


> The bundle is not only available during the sales, as far I know.


Yeah the bundle will be available after the sales, but if you buy the bundle after the 5th December they wont give you the Berlin Orchestra for free.


----------



## emilio_n

Aitcpiano said:


> Yeah the bundle will be available after the sales, but if you buy the bundle after the 5th December they wont give you the Berlin Orchestra for free.


Ops, I didn't know this!
I can't find the info on the webpage.


----------



## borisb2

bought BSS yesterday .. downloaded V1 Tree mics for a first test spin and was quite happy with the sound.

Today I thought I will add Spot mic - and downloaded that.

Now I'm getting this:






.. what is this? .. I dont have an F: drive, never had


----------



## Aitcpiano

Same, I assumed they would be giving it for free as it is essentially the same content as the main series just cut down for laptop use with limited articulations and 1 mic. But apparently the cut of date to get it free is the 5th December.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Aitcpiano said:


> Same, I assumed they would be giving it for free as it is essentially the same content as the main series just cut down for laptop use with limited articulations and 1 mic. But apparently the cut of date to get it free is the 5th December.


That strikes me as a hell of an assumption. I keep seeing people like you say this, but I have never seen OT say this. If you have all the main libraries—and I do—I don’t really know why you would need it. It’s just watered down content.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Jett Hitt said:


> That strikes me as a hell of an assumption. I keep seeing people like you say this, but I have never seen OT say this. If you have all the main libraries—and I do—I don’t really know why you would need it. It’s just watered down content.


Very true, but it could be useful for laptop use and it is free for owners of the four main libraries up until the 5th December.

It is essentially a watered down version of the main libraries which is why I assumed it would be free beyond the 5th December.


----------



## Jose7822

Aitcpiano said:


> Very true, but it could be useful for laptop use and it is free for owners of the four main libraries up until the 5th December.
> 
> It is essentially a watered down version of the main libraries which is why I assumed it would be free beyond the 5th December.


Where are you seeing this? I have all 4 libraries (SINE versions) and I am not shown an option to download the Berklee version. It’s asking me to pay the full price. Or am I missing something here?


----------



## Aitcpiano

Jose7822 said:


> Where are you seeing this? I have all 4 libraries and I am not shown an option to download the Berklee version. It’s asking me to pay the full price. Or am I missing something here?


Have you got them all on SINE? I believe you should get it for free if you have the 4 Berlin Main Series SINE player collection.

I think the offer just cuts of after the 5th December for new buyers of the Berlin main series SINE player bundle collection.


----------



## Jose7822

Aitcpiano said:


> Have you got them all on SINE? I believe you should get it for free if you have the 4 Berlin Main Series SINE player collection.
> 
> I think the offer just cuts of after the 5th December for new buyers of the Berlin main series SINE player bundle collection.


Yeah. I downloaded them all, and they show up as registered on my account. The Berklee library doesn’t however. This is literally my first time buying OT libraries, so I hope I’m missing something. It would be nice to get a hold of the harp in the meantime until they port the full version to SINE.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Jose7822 said:


> Yeah. I downloaded them all, and they show up as registered in my account. The Berklee library doesn’t however. This is literally my first time buying OT libraries, so I hope I’m missing something. It would be nice to get a hold of the harp in the meantime until they port the full version to SINE.


Maybe contact OT. Have you just purchased the full collection on SINE as well?


----------



## Jose7822

Aitcpiano said:


> Maybe contact OT. Have you just purchased the full collection on SINE as well?


That’s what I’m saying, I’ve ONLY purchased them on SINE when they become available as a bundle a few days ago. But I’m still wondering where did you see that OT is offering the Berklee version for free? I haven’t seen anything regarding that anywhere.


----------



## Rudianos

Jose7822 said:


> That’s what I’m saying, I’ve ONLY purchased them in SINE when they become available as a bundle a few days ago. But I’m still wondering where did you see that OT is offering the Berklee version for free? I haven’t seen anything regarding that anywhere.


free here look at this post

Post in thread 'Berlin Orchestra: Created with Berklee - out now, with a special intro offer' https://vi-control.net/community/th...ith-a-special-intro-offer.114122/post-4935996


----------



## Jose7822

Rudianos said:


> free here look at this post
> 
> Post in thread 'Berlin Orchestra: Created with Berklee - out now, with a special intro offer' https://vi-control.net/community/th...ith-a-special-intro-offer.114122/post-4935996


That’s awesome!!

I have to check to see if I didn’t deleted it by mistake.

Thanks!!


----------



## emilio_n

Aitcpiano said:


> Have you got them all on SINE? I believe you should get it for free if you have the 4 Berlin Main Series SINE player collection.
> 
> I think the offer just cuts of after the 5th December for new buyers of the Berlin main series SINE player bundle collection.


Could you tell us where you see that you need to buy the 4 libraries BEFORE Dec 5 to get the Berkley version for free?


----------



## Breaker

I have the Kontakt versions of all the Berlin mains and I received an email week ago stating "*Be sure to enter all your serial numbers, and Berlin Orchestra will be assigned to your account automatically from December 6.*"
I don't know if recent buyers have gotten this email or not.


----------



## Aitcpiano

emilio_n said:


> Could you tell us where you see that you need to buy the 4 libraries BEFORE Dec 5 to get the Berkley version for free?


Via email. I asked if would get the Berlin Orchestra for free if I purchased the full Berlin bundle.


----------



## emilio_n

Aitcpiano said:


> Via email. I asked if would get the Berlin Orchestra for free if I purchased the full Berlin bundle.


Thanks! I am thinking to get the Sine version now or wait after BF. I have the EDU discount so I thought I can do it later.


----------



## Jose7822

Breaker said:


> I have the Kontakt versions of all the Berlin mains and I received an email week ago stating "*Be sure to enter all your serial numbers, and Berlin Orchestra will be assigned to your account automatically from December 6.*"
> I don't know if recent buyers have gotten this email or not.


I haven’t gotten that email, but I also don’t understand why can’t they just make it available on my account. Why the need to send a code via email? I guess I’ll email them about it.


----------



## Getsumen

Am I reading this wrong or does "From December 6th" imply that you will get it after December, and not that they will only give it before December?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Apparently OT did say this, or part of it, but way back in October. I haven't received any emails from them other than a sale announcement, and I own 12 of their libraries.


----------



## borisb2

borisb2 said:


> bought BSS yesterday .. downloaded V1 Tree mics for a first test spin and was quite happy with the sound.
> 
> Today I thought I will add Spot mic - and downloaded that.
> 
> Now I'm getting this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .. what is this? .. I dont have an F: drive, never had


Should I email support? Did I do something wrong?


----------



## Breaker

Jose7822 said:


> I haven’t gotten that email, but I also don’t understand why can’t they just make it available on my account. Why the need to send a code via email? I guess I’ll email them about it.


Didn't my quotation just say "*and Berlin Orchestra will be assigned to your account AUTOMATICALLY from December 6."* ?


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

borisb2 said:


> Should I email support? Did I do something wrong?


Yes, you did very, very, very bad!

(You should of course contact support)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I will say, for all the valid complaints of this SINE release, I've been trying to mockup the opening to the Olympic Fanfare and Theme by JW with many libraries and Berlin Brass has stood out at the top. Nobody else can seem to do the repetitions as well AND have a gorgeous tone (Infinite Brass has the flexibility but sounds very thin with quite a poor tone, Spitfire Symphonic Brass seems to have quadruple tongue recorded but has a lot of inconsistencies that make programming this piece a nightmare, Hollywood Brass OPUS is great but I haven't found an articulation that works as well as Berlin for the fast repetitions, CineBrass was a hopeless exercise given they don't have enough articulations recorded, JXL Brass doesn't have repetitions and staccatissimo doesn't cut it, and Cinematic Studio Brass worked pretty well - 2nd best - but does not have the tone of Berlin).

If OT can address some of the complaints and SINE improvements mentioned here, this collection is going to be hard to beat.


----------



## Jose7822

Breaker said:


> Didn't my quotation just say "*and Berlin Orchestra will be assigned to your account AUTOMATICALLY from December 6."* ?



Take it easy there.

Your reply also said *"Be sure to enter all your serial numbers,…”*. Since I bought the SINE version, I didn’t need to enter any serial numbers, so my situation might be different than yours. It’s not very clear from what I’ve read thus far, which is why I want to reach out to them.

*EDIT:* To further clarify, admittedly I’m making the assumption that OT needs to email me a code in order for me to get the Berklee version. However, it might be available automagically from December 6th, which would be great 👍. I just would like some clarification, that’s all.


----------



## Breaker

Jose7822 said:


> Take it easy there.
> 
> Your reply also said *"Be sure to enter all your serial numbers,…”*. Since I bought the SINE version, I didn’t need to enter any serial numbers, so my situation might be different than yours. It’s not very clear from what I’ve read thus far, which is why I want to reach out to them.
> 
> *EDIT:* To further clarify, admittedly I’m making the assumption that OT needs to email me a code in order for me to get the Berklee version. However, it might be available automagically from December 6th, which would be great 👍. I just would like some clarification, that’s all.


Didn't mean to sound harsh.
Entering serial numbers refer to having Kontakt purchases to appear in SINE (which obviously doesn't concern you), but I don't understand where did you get the idea that OT will start emailing some codes when the email said "assigned to your account automatically"?

In short: I except that everyone who has the Berlin mains in SINE right now, will have Berlin Orchestra in there as well on Dec 6th.
(Disclaimer: OT's track record of fulfilling my expectations is somewhat lacking)


----------



## Chungus

Jett Hitt said:


> That strikes me as a hell of an assumption. I keep seeing people like you say this, but I have never seen OT say this. If you have all the main libraries—and I do—I don’t really know why you would need it. It’s just watered down content.


Once the BO gets added to my account, I'll download the harp, bass clari and contrabassoon, just to hold me over until the proper libraries have been ported to sine. :D


----------



## Hendrixon

Chungus said:


> Once the BO gets added to my account, I'll download the harp, bass clari and contrabassoon, just to hold me over until the proper libraries have been ported to sine. :D


Is there stuff in BO that isn't in the mains?


----------



## Chungus

Hendrixon said:


> Is there stuff in BO that isn't in the mains?


Yeah, the instruments I mentioned above. They're in Berlin Symphonic Harps, and Woodwinds Additional Instruments, respectively.

BO also has solo strings, but these came from the First Chairs, which I already have.


----------



## Hendrixon

Chungus said:


> Yeah, the instruments I mentioned above. They're in Berlin Symphonic Harps, and Woodwinds Additional Instruments, respectively.
> 
> BO also has solo strings, but these came from the First Chairs, which I already have.


Had no idea... good to know.

So its:
Solo Violin I
Solo Violin II
Solo Viola
Solo Cello
Solo Bass
Harp
Bass Clarinet
Contrabassoon
Timpani (although that's now part of the SINE version as well?)


----------



## Jose7822

Hendrixon said:


> Had no idea... good to know.
> 
> So its:
> Solo Violin I
> Solo Violin II
> Solo Viola
> Solo Cello
> Solo Bass
> Harp
> Bass Clarinet
> Contrabassoon
> Timpani (although that's now part of the SINE version as well?)


Correct. The Timpani is already part of Berlin Percussion (as of the SINE update), so no need to download it from Berlin Orchestra.


----------



## Scalms

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I will say, for all the valid complaints of this SINE release, I've been trying to mockup the opening to the Olympic Fanfare and Theme by JW with many libraries and Berlin Brass has stood out at the top. Nobody else can seem to do the repetitions as well AND have a gorgeous tone (Infinite Brass has the flexibility but sounds very thin with quite a poor tone, Spitfire Symphonic Brass seems to have quadruple tongue recorded but has a lot of inconsistencies that make programming this piece a nightmare, Hollywood Brass OPUS is great but I haven't found an articulation that works as well as Berlin for the fast repetitions, CineBrass was a hopeless exercise given they don't have enough articulations recorded, JXL Brass doesn't have repetitions and staccatissimo doesn't cut it, and Cinematic Studio Brass worked pretty well - 2nd best - but does not have the tone of Berlin).
> 
> If OT can address some of the complaints and SINE improvements mentioned here, this collection is going to be hard to beat.


Great to hear.  Makes me more confident in my decision to pick it up, since I own a bunch of brass libraries already. Was it Sine or Kontakt version you used?


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Relax i email OT and they said theyre behind and will send berklee soon


----------



## Jett Hitt

Chungus said:


> Once the BO gets added to my account, I'll download the harp, bass clari and contrabassoon, just to hold me over until the proper libraries have been ported to sine. :D


This is why I don't quite understand why OT would just give it away. It has the potential to kill future sales of other libraries, and why didn't they use this gift as marketing for Black Friday sales?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Scalms said:


> Great to hear. Makes me more confident in my decision to pick it up, since I own a bunch of brass libraries already. Was it Sine or Kontakt version you used?


SINE


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> This is why I don't quite understand why OT would just give it away. It has the potential to kill future sales of other libraries, and why didn't they use this gift as marketing for Black Friday sales?


Honestly I think they didn’t think it through at all. They made BO for a specific use and stated that they were surprised that owners of the Mains were even interested in BO. So then they declared that those who owned all the Mains would receive BO, perhaps overlooking that BO had content that extended beyond the Mains. Hopefully they will continue the policy though, because BO is a good alternative for mobile set ups. Also the legato scripting will be different since the BO instruments are generally set up with different numbers of dynamic layers than the Mains. Given the issues with legato scripting in these libraries I could definitely see times when BO might be preferable, especially since the BO setups tend to be simpler.


----------



## Hendrixon

From OT's point of view the buyers of the complete Berlin Main are a prime crowd... even on sale prices.
If they will like some of the added "cut down" instruments, they will buy the full ones.
Look at it as a taste, a tease... or a gift.


----------



## Casiquire

Well, you're stuck to one mic position and limited articulations. I don't think most people who chose to buy all four mains will choose to restrict themselves like that. Also we don't know their future plans: what if they plan to roll some of those extra instruments into the main libraries in the future, like they did with the Timpani?

When they do something generous, it either goes unnoticed or we assume it's not well thought out. When they do something less generous, it must be malicious.


----------



## EricBarndollar

OT_Tobias said:


> Have patience - crossgrade notices are still going out, we're staggering them. Timpani owners shall not be forgotten!


Have any timpani owners gotten crossgrade offers (and for how much, if so)? Timpani serial number doesn't seem to work as a voucher code during checkout on Berlin Percussion or to complete the Berlin Mains collection.


----------



## bnsrowe

Robin said:


> Can anyone with Studio One try the repetition patches? I just tried playing the 4 Horns repetitions within S1 and Sine crashed my Studio One. I can reproduce that behavior with every repetition patch.


Happens to me as well.


----------



## Rudianos

EricBarndollar said:


> Have any timpani owners gotten crossgrade offers (and for how much, if so)? Timpani serial number doesn't seem to work as a voucher code during checkout on Berlin Percussion or to complete the Berlin Mains collection.


NO!!! They said last weekend - but running behind?!!! I email them every 3 days and nadda. I am waiting to buy the SINE collection until.


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> Well, you're stuck to one mic position and limited articulations. I don't think most people who chose to buy all four mains will choose to restrict themselves like that. Also we don't know their future plans: what if they plan to roll some of those extra instruments into the main libraries in the future, like they did with the Timpani?
> 
> When they do something generous, it either goes unnoticed or we assume it's not well thought out. When they do something less generous, it must be malicious.


No, OT stated that they didn’t think Mains owners would be interested in BO which is why they didn’t initially have a plan to distribute it to Mains owners. Then they quickly reversed course. But it wasn’t much time, so it’s unlikely to have been thought through very carefully. They may be fine with having Mains owners having limited versions of these other libraries though. That’s true, because they do serve as teasers for those supplements. Or, as you say they might have plans for folding some of the supplements into the Mains.


----------



## Jett Hitt

@jbuhler and @Casiquire All good points. I usually think of OT as being less than generous. I have been very annoyed in the past at things like Berlin Percussion not having a timpani or Woodwinds not having bass clarinet and contra bassoon. I am aggravated that I have to buy a whole new library just to have flutter tongue on the flute.

The addition of timpani to Percussion was quite a welcome surprise, and it would be really nice to see them add some of these things that are sold separately to the Mains. I can't imagine that copies of Additional Brass (piccolo and bass trumpet, contra bass trombone, euphonium) are flying off the shelves at $225. 

As annoyed as I get with OT, however, I love their stuff. I want them to be successful. I cringe a bit when I see them do something like release Berlin Brass prematurely or take 9 months to repair BSS. It really only serves to soil their reputation. I wonder if the short term gains override the long term damage?


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> As annoyed as I get with OT, however, I love their stuff. I want them to be successful. I cringe a bit when I see them do something like release Berlin Brass prematurely or take 9 months to repair BSS. It really only serves to soil their reputation. I wonder if the short term gains override the long term damage?


Yes, and BSS is still not fully fixed, with bugs reported within days of the original release unaddressed. 

That said BSS is completely usable and was through the period when the mic merge wasn’t working. I’d say the same about BS. I haven’t completed my tests on BS yet but so far i haven’t found anything that I can’t work around. I would classify the issues as annoyances not really substantive. And I find the Sine version fits my workflow much better than does the Kontakt version. I’m hoping to get my articulation sets made up in the next few days and then I’ll be able to test the workflow improvements in a real way.

I do think OT needs to get much better about maintenance. I noticed updates to Modus and JXL Brass recently, so I’m hopeful that they are starting to make regular updates a basic part of their routine. In the past updates tended only to occur if they were implementing something like nks compatibility. Nearly all the Kontakt updates and fixes were organized around those kinds of things, and they were often years apart.


----------



## Robin

bnsrowe said:


> Happens to me as well.


I had contact with support about this, seems to be happening only at buffer size 2048 and is caused by a bug in the timestretch module that they bought externally. Try with smaller buffer and see if that solves the issue.


----------



## jamwerks

Must say the Brass with the added layer sounds awesome!


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I’m hoping to get my articulation sets made up in the next few days and then I’ll be able to test the workflow improvements in a real way.


Ugh. . . you just made me think about having to make all of the articulation sets for all 4 libraries. That makes me wanna cry. Making them for BSS and BWWS was a real chore--a chore made infinitely more difficult for me because I think of Middle C as C4. I learned it this way at university, and I taught it this way at university. It is simple enough to transpose it in your head until you do it again and again and again for each articulation. I am still finding ones that I screwed up in BSS.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> Ugh. . . you just made me think about having to make all of the articulation sets for all 4 libraries. That makes me wanna cry. Making them for BSS and BWWS was a real chore--a chore made infinitely more difficult for me because I think of Middle C as C4. I learned it this way at university, and I taught it this way at university. It is simple enough to transpose it in your head until you do it again and again and again for each articulation. I am still finding ones that I screwed up in BSS.


Secretly I’m hoping Babylon Waves comes out with an update before I tackle it myself. I think these are the first Sine libraries that require channels to address all articulations in a single instrument though, so it may take them more time to work out. 

I set up a BS articulation map for Kontakt before Babylon Waves made their full set and it took me most of a day to do.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> Secretly I’m hoping Babylon Waves comes out with an update before I tackle it myself. I think these are the first Sine libraries that require channels to address all articulations in a single instrument though, so it may take them more time to work out.
> 
> I set up a BS articulation map for Kontakt before Babylon Waves made their full set and it took me most of a day to do.


I don’t remember which version of Babylonwaves I have, but the sets I had for BS and BWW in Kontakt were incomplete and didn’t work as I recall. Maybe @babylonwaves updated them in a future update. I would sure buy an updated set for Sine if Marc rolled them out quickly.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I made expression maps for Cubase very quickly thanks to this site https://nils-lischka.com/xpressmapp

(Over time, I generally have preferred to make my own maps vs. buying them because the purchased ones have IMO some strange setup choices and often are incomplete / don't include all the articulations I want)


----------



## babylonwaves

hey @Jett Hitt @jbuhler 

There will be full support for sure but as it turns out, it'll take me a little while. The Sine instruments are fairly complex (especially with all the variations) and I also want to make "combined" versions. OT spread the articulations over multiple instruments and I want to include an option to control all those instruments from one big expression map.


----------



## jbuhler

babylonwaves said:


> hey @Jett Hitt @jbuhler
> 
> There will be full support for sure but as it turns out, it'll take me a little while. The Sine instruments are fairly complex (especially with all the variations) and I also want to make "combined" versions. OT spread the articulations over multiple instruments and I want to include an option to control all those instruments from one big expression map.


This is great to hear! Yes, the second I saw how the Sine instruments were laid out, I thought it would take considerable work on your end to get the combined versions to work smoothly.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I am still downloading my first of these 4 libraries, so I am a bit in the dark about these things still. (I'll probably still be in the dark after I actually see them, but for the moment I have a legitimate excuse.) But I am delighted to hear that someone else is going to tackle this. Looking forward to it!


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I made expression maps for Cubase very quickly thanks to this site https://nils-lischka.com/xpressmapp
> 
> (Over time, I generally have preferred to make my own maps vs. buying them because the purchased ones have IMO some strange setup choices and often are incomplete / don't include all the articulations I want)


Less so now that Babylon Waves have their script and snapshots. It's remarkably smooth, and I tend to follow their basic scheme when setting up libraries that aren't in their sets. Some libraries, especially those with lots of legato choices or based around textures and such, do not lend themselves well to that scheme. Still, it's far better starting with the Babylon Waves sets and modifying them than having to do all that initial work, and the Babylon Waves sets are also quite consistent with making the articulation IDs consistent across libraries, meaning midi transfers better in Logic. As far as I know there doesn't exist a third party tool for making articulation sets, so you are stuck using the truly abysmal Logic editor for the task.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> you are stuck using the truly abysmal Logic editor for the task.


OMG ^^^THIS^^^


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I don’t remember which version of Babylonwaves I have, but the sets I had for BS and BWW in Kontakt were incomplete and didn’t work as I recall. Maybe @babylonwaves updated them in a future update. I would sure buy an updated set for Sine if Marc rolled them out quickly.


Yes, that’s why I had to make my own initially. They since developed snapshots that add all the Kontakt instances into a multi that has a set of Capsule instances filled with the correct articulations, makes midi channel assignments, and adds a multi script to propagate CCs across the midi channels. This gives the instrumental channel the full set of articulations, meaning you can select everything via the articulation sets. Here's a video:


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> OMG ^^^THIS^^^


I've been trying to get my daughter to write me a proper editor to do this, which doesn't seem like it would be difficult, but I haven't yet been successful in getting it.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Well, in case it'll help anybody at least get started, here are the expression maps I made for most of the instruments. For strings, I split it up into core (shorts and longs) and extras (all other patches on individual MIDI channels).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Quick mockup using only the SINE Berlin collection (outside of the timpani for which I liked CinePerc better and the contrabassoon and bass clarinet, which were from Spitfire Symphonic Brass). The first section utilizes the recorded ensembles of Berlin Brass while for the second, I recorded the 4 individual horns separately. I didn't run into a single legato issue or bug during this exercise. The Berlin String section size is probably a little small for this type of piece, but this snippet doesn't rely on strings much.

I'm sure a better programmer could improve upon this, but as I mentioned previously, Berlin Brass was able to execute this in my non-expert hands far better than nearly any other brass library I own.


----------



## bnsrowe

babylonwaves said:


> hey @Jett Hitt @jbuhler
> 
> There will be full support for sure but as it turns out, it'll take me a little while. The Sine instruments are fairly complex (especially with all the variations) and I also want to make "combined" versions. OT spread the articulations over multiple instruments and I want to include an option to control all those instruments from one big expression map.


You good sir are doing the lawds work!


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Well, in case it'll help anybody at least get started, here are the expression maps I made for most of the instruments. For strings, I split it up into core (shorts and longs) and extras (all other patches on individual MIDI channels).


Massive thanks!


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Can anyone else confirm that Berlin Perc > Timpani > Normal Cresc Short & Very Short are playing the wrong samples?


----------



## Wenlone

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Can anyone else confirm that Berlin Perc > Timpani > Normal Cresc Short & Very Short are playing the wrong samples?


----------



## lucor

Wenlone said:


>



So they didn't even notice that short and very short crescendos are switched, even after actively and extensively featuring them in their own official walkthrough video? Oh boy...


----------



## muziksculp

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Can anyone else confirm that Berlin Perc > Timpani > Normal Cresc Short & Very Short are playing the wrong samples?


Did you email their support to notify them about this ?


----------



## Hendrixon

alchemist said:


> I think you may have missed one of the updates! I got BBR the day it was announced, so there have been some updates along the way which I can't remember details of, but maybe have a search through the emails? Or shoot OT a message and see if they can get you the latest.


I've checked things with OT support (big thumbs up to Ariel  ), and the bottom line is that apparently I'm an idiot  
I installed all Berlin section in one big folder. that by it self is not a problem cause all files have unique names. the couple of files that have the same name are capsule.nkr and capsule.nkc
So who ever section I installed last, that's the "capsule" I had working for ALL sections

Now my Horns Ensemble Legato looks like yours:





And it sounds better then before...
I assume the capsule I had working wasn't from BB.
Now I'll need to start again comparing kontakt and sine


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

Here's a quick video for you showcasing the Sine player legato of berlin strings. 
Violin 1 looking into the other long articulations legato can be applied to. 
I love how lively the tone is in the espressivo patches and with little effort, too.


----------



## dannesand

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> Here's a quick video for you showcasing the Sine player legato of berlin strings.
> Violin 1 looking into the other long articulations legato can be applied to.
> I love how lively the tone is in the espressivo patches and with little effort, too.



Awesome video Alex! Love the energy!


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> Here's a quick video for you showcasing the Sine player legato of berlin strings.
> Violin 1 looking into the other long articulations legato can be applied to.
> I love how lively the tone is in the espressivo patches and with little effort, too.



And yet the intervals of legato are greatly curtailed, they do not have enough time to express themselves completely. Unfortunately, there is no way to control this in Sine player, and this is sad so far. You know that the version of Kontakt can easily surpass and become more expressive and not only in strings?


----------



## Rudianos

At last Timpani Crossgrade codes emailed!!! ... I am going for SINE. It is the future of Orchestral Tools. It drops the Bundle about 40 Euro and is completely free.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

I have a question for all the SINE users: The Berlin complete SINE bundle says 998 GB of samples (389.5 GB SINEarc compressed). How much disk space do you need during the download and install process? The question isn't restricted to the bundle, but to all SINE collections in general. Just want to know.


----------



## Evans

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And yet the intervals of legato are greatly curtailed, they do not have enough time to express themselves completely. Unfortunately, there is no way to control this in Sine player, and this is sad so far. You know that the version of Kontakt can easily surpass and become more expressive and not only in strings?


This means I probably have about 400 GBs of Kontakt samples in this series that I can't delete, because I don't know which ones are responsible for the legato patches that I want to keep.

I suppose I could rename some then start loading patches to see what fails, but... ugh.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I have a question for all the SINE users: The Berlin complete SINE bundle says 998 GB of samples (389.5 GB SINEarc compressed). How much disk space do you need during the download and install process? The question isn't restricted to the bundle, but to all SINE collections in general. Just want to know.


Sine works differently than other players because it downloads each instrument piecemeal. It will download all of the mic positions you choose for one instrument, unzip them, and install them. Obviously it will require a little bit of headroom, but it is nothing like a library that requires twice the space to download and install.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

Evans said:


> This means I probably have about 400 GBs of Kontakt samples in this series that I can't delete, because I don't know which ones are responsible for the legato patches that I want to keep.
> 
> I suppose I could rename some then start loading patches to see what fails, but... ugh.


Nonsense. Why do you need this? Impractical. Just stay on Kontakt  Until better times, because no one knows when they will come and whether they will come at all...


----------



## SLEEPTLKER

Is anyone else running into buggy issues with the 1.0.7 version of Sine? I have crashes when I delete the player or change buffer size in a session. Running 64GB of RAM on an I7 Mac mini on Catalina.


----------



## Marsen

SLEEPTLKER said:


> Is anyone else running into buggy issues with the 1.0.7 version of Sine? I have crashes when I delete the player or change buffer size in a session. Running 64GB of RAM on an I7 Mac mini on Catalina.


What you mean by " delete the player" ?


----------



## muziksculp

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> Nonsense. Why do you need this? Impractical. Just stay on Kontakt  Until better times, because no one knows when they will come and whether they will come at all...


Do you work for NI ?


----------



## SLEEPTLKER

Marsen said:


> What you mean by " delete the player" ?


When I delete a track with the Sine Player on it my session crashes.


----------



## Marsen

SLEEPTLKER said:


> When I delete a track with the Sine Player on it my session crashes.


Interesting. 

I have the same setup, but didn't update SINE yet.
Is this with the new Berlin Main , or any SINE libs?


----------



## Jose7822

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I have a question for all the SINE users: The Berlin complete SINE bundle says 998 GB of samples (389.5 GB SINEarc compressed). How much disk space do you need during the download and install process? The question isn't restricted to the bundle, but to all SINE collections in general. Just want to know.


My OT folder says 391GB for the SINE bundle. I downloaded everything on a 1TB HDD first to later spread them out amongst my SSD drives. You should be fine if you have around 500GB of spare, just so you have some headroom, since the samples are first downloaded in zip format and then they get automatically unpacked. Alternatively, you could spread the libraries from the start, and download each one in their respective drive.


----------



## SLEEPTLKER

Marsen said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I have the same setup, but didn't update SINE yet.
> Is this with the new Berlin Main , or any SINE libs?


The new Berlin mains, just seems to be really bulky on my systems. as soon as I drag an entire instance of Violin 1s over, immediate crash.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

muziksculp said:


> Did you email their support to notify them about this ?


Look, we've been over this. Besides - it's in their official walkthrough, who am I to question it?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Can anyone else confirm that Berlin Perc > Timpani > Normal Cresc Short & Very Short are playing the wrong samples?


Yes, seems like they're swapped.


----------



## jbuhler

SLEEPTLKER said:


> Is anyone else running into buggy issues with the 1.0.7 version of Sine? I have crashes when I delete the player or change buffer size in a session. Running 64GB of RAM on an I7 Mac mini on Catalina.


No, 1.0.7 is stable for me. No crashes. I haven’t even yet had a hang on project start up since I installed 1.0.7. 2020 iMac i9 with 128GB running Catalina.


----------



## bnsrowe

Robin said:


> I had contact with support about this, seems to be happening only at buffer size 2048 and is caused by a bug in the timestretch module that they bought externally. Try with smaller buffer and see if that solves the issue.


It seems to be more stable but ultimately it still completely crashes ( completely closes ) studio one.


----------



## Jose7822

I haven’t encountered any issues with Studio One thus far, but I also haven’t done much more than a basic test, so things might change when I start working on a project.

As a quick test, I loaded up the entire 1st Violins section (Longs and Shorts, Ornaments, Dynamics, etc) and played around with it for a little bit without any problems. Fingers crossed!

For reference, I’m on a Windows 10 Pro machine using Studio One 5.4.1. My buffer size is set to 32 samples @ 48KHz (2ms RTL), Dropout Protection set to “High” (1024 samples), Audio Engine at 64bit, ”Low Latency Monitoring for Instruments” and “Use Native Low Latency…” both checked. However, “Enable Plug-in Nap” is not checked.


----------



## Getsumen

Evans said:


> This means I probably have about 400 GBs of Kontakt samples in this series that I can't delete, because I don't know which ones are responsible for the legato patches that I want to keep.
> 
> I suppose I could rename some then start loading patches to see what fails, but... ugh.


There are third party programs that let you open nkx files to view the ncw files inside and repackage them. Obviously not endorsed by NI but if that's something you want to try and see, I can give you some pointers.


----------



## Chungus

Huh. I just noticed the basses sustains have only 2 dyn. layers. This isn't a SINE-specific thing, but still, it's an odd choice, IMO.


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And yet the intervals of legato are greatly curtailed, they do not have enough time to express themselves completely. Unfortunately, there is no way to control this in Sine player, and this is sad so far. You know that the version of Kontakt can easily surpass and become more expressive and not only in strings?





Vladimir Bulaev said:


> And yet the intervals of legato are greatly curtailed, they do not have enough time to express themselves completely. Unfortunately, there is no way to control this in Sine player, and this is sad so far. You know that the version of Kontakt can easily surpass and become more expressive and not only in strings?


That really depends on how you define d expressiveness. Legato transitions are not the only constituent for me. I personally want to move away from kontakt because the one track per articulation doesn't work for me. Kontakt did allow for legato transitions to be applied to other long articulations but only in their multis which were very clunky for me. 

I have tested the pixelpoet trick and loved it, so thanks for that. But so far I am absolutely in love with the Sine player and how it suits my workflow and my resources. 

Here's a mockup done with Berlin/kontakt(Berlin symphonic Songs layered in) . With the Sine version I can surpass this easily with less work, mainly by tossing in espressivo patches or any of the other articulations at the push of a button.


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> I have a question for all the SINE users: The Berlin complete SINE bundle says 998 GB of samples (389.5 GB SINEarc compressed). How much disk space do you need during the download and install process? The question isn't restricted to the bundle, but to all SINE collections in general. Just want to know.


Well if you only use the tree mike I think it's under 200gb. I'll check when I'm in my studio later. I downloaded all but the ab microphones.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> I personally want to move away from kontakt because the one track per articulation doesn't work for me.


I see you're using studio one. This can be considered a disadvantage if you do not apply the skill with banks that Kontakt provides. Uploading any patches to the instrumental bank up to 128 articulations per instrument. Sound Variations works great.













AlexSonicsMusic said:


> Kontakt did allow for legato transitions to be applied to other long articulations but only in their multis which were very clunky for me.


But this can be a problem, I agree. If you set such a goal, legato is not applied to the remaining articulations of individual patches. Although, in fact, this trick with legato for articulations that were not intended for this will still not give realistic results, it still does not sound lifelike and, moreover, with stripped-down transitions. I do not know what you guys find attractive about this. The performance is not natural, it does not glue.


----------



## dhmusic

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> The performance is not natural, it does not glue.


It glues if you glue it. Otherwise no, it usually doesn't.


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

Vladimir Bulaev said:


> I see you're using studio one. This can be considered a disadvantage if you do not apply the skill with banks that Kontakt provides. Uploading any patches to the instrumental bank up to 128 articulations per instrument. Sound Variations works great.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But this can be a problem, I agree. If you set such a goal, legato is not applied to the remaining articulations of individual patches. Although, in fact, this trick with legato for articulations that were not intended for this will still not give realistic results, it still does not sound lifelike and, moreover, with stripped-down transitions. I do not know what you guys find attractive about this. The performance is not natural, it does not glue.


Oh it does work in studio one. You will still need multis for that, and for banks a multi made up of multis. That didn't work for me and the Sine multis are so more considerate of my resources 🌞

What I find realistic about it is that it comes close to what I, as a professionally trained cellist and amateur conductor would want my orchestra to do. The articulations depend on context, obviously, but they give me everything I need. 
Longer transitions do not equal more realism in my opinion. 
The longest transitions occurred when crossing strings BTW... 

Anyway, everyone can be happy as Sine and kontakt can be interpreted separate instruments. 
You just choose which you want to use.


----------



## Raphioli

@OrchestralTools just needs to let us customize each transition within SINE, just like Kontakt.
Theres even (multiple) samples developers that provided users with a convenient knob on the GUI to customized the transition to their liking, so the user doesn't need to go through the settings under the wrench.

Then all of this won't be a problem, because the pixelpoet trick does reveal that the transition samples themselves are good. Its just the programming.


----------



## Vladimir Bulaev

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> Longer transitions do not equal more realism in my opinion.


The fact is that the interval transitions of legato should be reproduced completely as they recorded if we talk about realism. Therefore, we are limited by the intensity that was captured in the samples. But if we need transitions faster, then they will not work realistically if you move or cut legato. There should have been recordings of the performance of intervals already at a different speed.


----------



## Francisco Lamolda

I have a question. If you would only have CSB and would like to purchase just one or two horns from BB, wich one would you buy? I'm asking this because I know that all of them have different tone and sound.


----------



## Eptesicus

Im really tempted to get berlin brass, but as im concerned about the current issues in SINE, i wish we could buy the kontakt version and still get the SINE version for free.

That would alleivate my concerns as i could use Kontakt for now and then switch to SINE once the legato issues are fixed.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

Francisco Lamolda said:


> I have a question. If you would only have CSB and would like to purchase just one or two horns from BB, wich one would you buy? I'm asking this because I know that all of them have different tone and sound.


Each horn is really different. Horns 1 and 3 are high horns, and excel in the upper register, while 2 and 4 are better for low stuff. Horn 1 is probably the most solid overall in terms of balance and tone, but I like horn 3 a lot for upper register melodic stuff


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Francisco Lamolda said:


> I have a question. If you would only have CSB and would like to purchase just one or two horns from BB, wich one would you buy? I'm asking this because I know that all of them have different tone and sound.



Horn 1 - Very classical tone
Horn 2 - Best overall low dynamics, the pp layer is exquisite. Beautiful for solo passages. 
Horn 3 - Good all rounder. There is something in the tone I don't always like, but I often use this one on top of an Ensemble to add définition (like I would with a first chair for strings) 
Horn 4 - Very powerful and lots of character. Sounds amazing for darker ambiances. 

My personal favourites are 2 and 4.


----------



## Casiquire

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> Well if you only use the tree mike I think it's under 200gb. I'll check when I'm in my studio later. I downloaded all but the ab microphones.


Not to throw a wrench in the works but I'm a huge fan of the AB especially for warming up the strings a little. Of course I'm a fairly new user so, grain of salt. I feel like i could do early the ORTF though. Do you feel it offers you anything special?


----------



## Eptesicus

lettucehat said:


> Agreed, on the last point especially. I'll personally wait until near the end of the sale window to see if they say more than just.. the legatos are better. Some kind of reversal to the Kontakt/Sine up/downgrade policy would take pretty much all the pressure off of this and they'd have all the time in the world to polish the Sine versions and way fewer people refusing to take the leap.



Yep, my feelings exactly. let people buy the kontakt version now and upgrade to SINE for free.

I would pull the trigger on Berlin Brass right now if that were the case. i just dont fancy buying something that has parts broken because you just never know when updates will arrive for orchestral libraries.


----------



## Francisco Lamolda

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Horn 1 - Very classical tone
> Horn 2 - Best overall low dynamics, the pp layer is exquisite. Beautiful for solo passages.
> Horn 3 - Good all rounder. There is something in the tone I don't always like, but I often use this one on top of an Ensemble to add définition (like I would with a first chair for strings)
> Horn 4 - Very powerful and lots of character. Sounds amazing for darker ambiances.
> 
> My personal favourites are 2 and 4.


So would you recommend to use the solo horn from CSB as the leader or top and then use 2 and 4 as accompaniment? Or vice versa?


----------



## muziksculp

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> Longer transitions do not equal more realism in my opinion.
> The longest transitions occurred when crossing strings BTW...


Very true. Actually longer transitions can make it sound fake, and unrealistic. Unless that is the intention of tweaking the legato transitions to make them longer. 

I'm fine the way they sound in SINE, but I still don't mind any further controls OT can offer to modify the transitions if needed via a slider in a future update. The more Controls they can offer in SINE, the better. I wouldn't mind if they also add an ADSR envelope. (OPUS player has it).


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Francisco Lamolda said:


> So would you recommend to use the solo horn from CSB as the leader or top and then use 2 and 4 as accompaniment? Or vice versa?


Well, my tastes aren't necessarily yours! I suggest you listen to the demos from each Horn in the Sine store and pick your own favourites based on what you already have with CSB. As for the roles for each horn, this is something that changes from a piece to another. The real beauty of these solo horns is to have plenty of colors available - switch voices, listen, and choose


----------



## Hendrixon

I actually like the sound of all four horns as an ensemble, there's a definition in the tone that the real ensemble doesn't have. if I want more "glue", I sometimes add some of the real ensemble underneath.


----------



## Rudianos

Takes two hours for each patch but so far horns trumpet percussion wow! Smooth and clear tone. Some people's demos here are bizarre, not getting that from my end. Just had to play terminator theme, actually just fell out of horn 1 without thinking about it. Looking forward to getting back home.


----------



## Mike Fox

Sorry if this been covered already, but i am little confused about the upgrade to Sine from Kontakt. I’ve read that it’s around 10% of the original price to upgrade, but also read that it’s free to upgrade?

Is it free for original adopters of the library, but anyone who buys the kontakt version now and then upgrades to Sine will be charged the upgrade fee?


----------



## Getsumen

Mike Fox said:


> Sorry if this been covered already, but i am little confused about the upgrade to Sine from Kontakt. I’ve read that it’s around 10% of the original price to upgrade, but also read that it’s free to upgrade?
> 
> Is it free for original adopters of the library, but anyone who buys the kontakt version now and then upgrades to Sine will be charged the upgrade fee?


Yes


----------



## Eptesicus

Mike Fox said:


> Sorry if this been covered already, but i am little confused about the upgrade to Sine from Kontakt. I’ve read that it’s around 10% of the original price to upgrade, but also read that it’s free to upgrade?
> 
> Is it free for original adopters of the library, but anyone who buys the kontakt version now and then upgrades to Sine will be charged the upgrade fee?



I think so. Although on the SINE page it asks for a Kontakt serial number, so are any serial numbers bought after a certain time, not working in that window? Not sure.


----------



## Casiquire

Eptesicus said:


> I think so. Although on the SINE page it asks for a Kontakt serial number, so are any serial numbers bought after a certain time, not working in that window? Not sure.


Kontakt libraries purchased after 11/17/2021 require an upgrade fee

@OrchestralTools are the SINE patches that say "+LEG" identical to the old kontakt Legato individual patches? They were apparently superior to the Capsule sustain patches with legato enabled


----------



## Eptesicus

Casiquire said:


> Kontakt libraries purchased after 11/17/2021 require an upgrade fee


How disappointing.


----------



## dannesand

Casiquire said:


> Kontakt libraries purchased after 11/17/2021 require an upgrade fee
> 
> @OrchestralTools are the SINE patches that say "+LEG" identical to the old kontakt Legato individual patches? They were apparently superior to the Capsule sustain patches with legato enabled


The legato transitions overall are considerably better and more natural to my ears, big improvement here I think. But the Legato patch, in comparison with Kontakt's equivalent, is indeed a bit different in that I think it does not contain the soft sustain, neither the accented sustain (it's just regular "immediate" sustain with legato applied basically). However, once you set up a polymap, you can mix and match most of the articulations to your liking, adding regular, soft, accented, portato, espressivo, and so on. Polymaps is extremely useful, have been playing around with it some time now. Only thing I would like is a way to CC legato type, right now I have like 2-3 copies sometimes of the same articulation, but with a different legato applied to each. Therefore the polymap looks really busy, but it indeed works!


----------



## Mike Fox

Eptesicus said:


> How disappointing.


It really is. The update should either be free or a lot cheaper. Paying 10% of the original price is a kick to the dick. After-all, they’re the ones who want us to switch over.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Mike Fox said:


> It really is. The update should either be free or a lot cheaper. Paying 10% of the original price is a kick to the dick. After-all, they’re the ones who want us to switch over.


I've not purchased the bundle because of this.


----------



## Mike Fox

Aitcpiano said:


> I've not purchased the bundle because of this.


Yeah, the price to upgrade the entire bundle is downright scary.


----------



## Aitcpiano

Mike Fox said:


> Yeah, the price to upgrade the entire bundle is downright scary.


Yeah it really is and if I'm paying a big amount for all the main collections I don't expect to then not be allowed access to the Kontakt versions for free if I was to have any issues with the SINE versions.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

Aitcpiano said:


> I've not purchased the bundle because of this.



Yeah, I’m on the edge here as well but really would like to start out with the Kontakt versions until the SINE versions work fine. 
Deadlines and stuff…


----------



## Casiquire

Eh i get it. You'd need to download hundreds of gigs twice. And in the winds, brass, and percussion you're not really missing anything from the full libraries anyway. I've already deleted those three in kontakt from my drive. In the strings the only things missing are the sordino effect and the playable gliss, so for an extra 84 euros you can keep those.

If SINE literally doesn't work on someone's system, that's a different story, but i think that's a pretty small group


----------



## lettucehat

Casiquire said:


> Eh i get it. You'd need to download hundreds of gigs twice.


They don't seem to mind all of the existing owners doing this for free. Bandwidth costs 65-80 euros per library as of November 18th?


----------



## Casiquire

lettucehat said:


> They don't seem to mind all of the existing owners doing this for free. Bandwidth costs 65-80 euros per library as of November 18th?


Sure, existing owners didn't buy it *knowing* that there would be a future redownload. And they're a business, we shouldn't expect them to do everything at cost lol


----------



## lettucehat

Casiquire said:


> Sure, existing owners didn't buy it *knowing* that there would be a future redownload. And they're a business, we shouldn't expect them to do everything at cost lol


I mean some of them really should have figured it would exist on Sine at one point, and people also don't even need to download both if they're happy with the first one they download, but those are both beside the point. Either way it's a dumb justification, as is pretending it's about download costs (fine, charge for that!). Obviously they can allow it for free and choose not to for everyone, the point being to push people towards the format that they rushed out. But I barely even see what's in it for them, I would have bought it all the first day of the sale if you could jump between the formats without penalty. Somewhere earlier in this thread I suggested a grace period - you have the duration of this sale to buy Kontakt and get the free upgrade, after that Kontakt will still be on sale as long as serials exist but there will be a fee.

And come on, "_everything_ at cost"? What are some of these many other things they do at cost? Sounds like a lot, I'm curious. They create lots of libraries for free, that's great. But these libraries are expensive enough on sale that they could have passed on this upgrade policy altogether. Like plenty of other developers do.


----------



## Casiquire

lettucehat said:


> I mean some of them really should have figured it would exist on Sine at one point, and people also don't even need to download both if they're happy with the first one they download, but those are both beside the point. Either way it's a dumb justification, as is pretending it's about download costs (fine, charge for that!). Obviously they can allow it for free and choose not to for everyone, the point being to push people towards the format that they rushed out. But I barely even see what's in it for them, I would have bought it all the first day of the sale if you could jump between the formats without penalty. Somewhere earlier in this thread I suggested a grace period - you have the duration of this sale to buy Kontakt and get the free upgrade, after that Kontakt will still be on sale as long as serials exist but there will be a fee.
> 
> And come on, "_everything_ at cost"? What are some of these many other things they do at cost? Sounds like a lot, I'm curious. They create lots of libraries for free, that's great. But these libraries are expensive enough on sale that they could have passed on this upgrade policy altogether. Like plenty of other developers do.


I agree there should be a grace period. And i don't care what they do or don't provide at cost, i don't expect them to. That's the point.

I've got one customer paying for a library in one format. I've got another paying for a library in two. Both formats cost money (kontakt licenses, SINE maintenance...in which they should be investing way more lol). Why would i give it to both of them for the same price?


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

lettucehat said:


> I mean some of them really should have figured it would exist on Sine at one point, and people also don't even need to download both if they're happy with the first one they download, but those are both beside the point. Either way it's a dumb justification, as is pretending it's about download costs (fine, charge for that!). Obviously they can allow it for free and choose not to for everyone, the point being to push people towards the format that they rushed out. But I barely even see what's in it for them, I would have bought it all the first day of the sale if you could jump between the formats without penalty. Somewhere earlier in this thread I suggested a grace period - you have the duration of this sale to buy Kontakt and get the free upgrade, after that Kontakt will still be on sale as long as serials exist but there will be a fee.
> 
> And come on, "_everything_ at cost"? What are some of these many other things they do at cost? Sounds like a lot, I'm curious. They create lots of libraries for free, that's great. But these libraries are expensive enough on sale that they could have passed on this upgrade policy altogether. Like plenty of other developers do.



A grace period sounds very reasonable. 
Actually wouldn’t mind to pay something of a fee but already paying 80€ more on those 4 libraries if you buy them for Kontakt and then another 10% of the full collection price for an upgrade to SINE, I think is excessive.


----------



## tim727

I'm a bit confused ... is the upgrade from Kontakt to SINE 10% of the sale price or the regular price? For instance right now BB is 400 euros. Would the upgrade be 40 euros or 80 euros?

Also can anyone identify any obvious improvements in the SINE version of BB over the Kontakt version (I'm assuming the main one is the FF layer, but are there any others?).


----------



## Zanshin

80


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> Also can anyone identify any obvious improvements in the SINE version of BB over the Kontakt version (I'm assuming the main one is the FF layer, but are there any others?).


The patches have been reworked a bit, especially the legatos. Some like that, others not so much. I also find Sine fits my workflow better than Cspsule. That doesn’t affect the sound, but does affect how easily I can get the library to do what I want.


----------



## tim727

Zanshin said:


> 80


That's pretty frustrating. 


jbuhler said:


> The patches have been reworked a bit, especially the legatos. Some like that, others not so much. I also find Sine fits my workflow better than Cspsule. That doesn’t affect the sound, but does affect how easily I can get the library to do what I want.


And if I might ask, how would you compare the legatos? And in what way do you feel SINE improves your workflow?


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> That's pretty frustrating.
> 
> And if I might ask, how would you compare the legatos? And in what way do you feel SINE improves your workflow?


Capsule limited key switches to 12 per instance. So that required a fairly elaborate set up to load all the articulations into a single instance. Sine is generally much better in that respect, though not the case for Berlin Strings. It’s much easier to apply legatos to various articulations in Sine. That’s possible in Kontakt too but not as straightforward. Overall I find it much easier to set up one instrument per track, with all articulations loaded in Sine. 

I find the legatos in both serviceable. Kontakt legatos have one set of problems, Sine another. Overall I prefer to deal with the issues that the Sine legatos present. But legatos aren’t the main draw of OT libraries for me because I find the expression is borne more by other facets of the sound than the legato. The legato has to just not get in the way and allow you to make the transition between espressivo longs for instance, or linking together dynamic arcs. Others want more investment in the expressive potential of the legato itself. But I don’t think the OT legatos will give you that, and if it’s something you want or need for your music you’d do better with other libraries.


----------



## river angler

jbuhler said:


> ...Others want more investment in the expressive potential of the legato itself. But I don’t think the OT legatos will give you that, and if it’s something you want or need for your music you’d do better with other libraries.


Chris Hein is great for this!


----------



## lettucehat

Casiquire said:


> I agree there should be a grace period. And i don't care what they do or don't provide at cost, i don't expect them to. That's the point.


Ok so we went from "come on, they can't provide _everything_ at cost" to "I don't care personally". I can understand why you didn't start with the latter - it's not much of an argument.



Casiquire said:


> I've got one customer paying for a library in one format. I've got another paying for a library in two. Both formats cost money (kontakt licenses, SINE maintenance...in which they should be investing way more lol). Why would i give it to both of them for the same price?


Lol well when you put it _that_ way (and leave out the part where you gave one customer something for free)! Look, it's an arbitrary decision that you're putting more effort into defending than OT themselves are, which might be why you can't decide if you're making an argument based on practical/cost concerns or one based on fairness. It's not the end of the world but it is arbitrary. They can eat whatever costs they want in order to facilitate purchase and adoption of the libraries in Sine and they've drawn a particular line in determining which customers will pay for this switch. I'll consider this a 40% off sale if nothing changes, that's pretty good after all.. I just don't trust the Sine versions will turn out the way I'd like, but that is ultimately my problem I guess.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

Sorry if this was already mentioned, but is it just me, or do the 'triples' patches in the new SINE version of BS strings not work? The doubles work fine...


----------



## Jett Hitt

A.Heppelmann said:


> Sorry if this was already mentioned, but is it just me, or do the 'triples' patches in the new SINE version of BS strings not work? The doubles work fine...


They don’t.


----------



## jbuhler

A.Heppelmann said:


> Sorry if this was already mentioned, but is it just me, or do the 'triples' patches in the new SINE version of BS strings not work? The doubles work fine...


It’s the only thing I’ve found in the BS Sine port that is out and out not working.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

I'm as big a fan of the Berlin Series as anyone here, but I never understood some of the decisions to sample an articulation for some sections and not for others. Why no staccato bold for cellos? Or why no doubles patch for violas? What's their reasoning?


----------



## jbuhler

A.Heppelmann said:


> I'm as big a fan of the Berlin Series as anyone here, but I never understood some of the decisions to sample an articulation for some sections and not for others. Why no staccato bold for cellos? Or why no doubles patch for violas? What's their reasoning?


The doubles patch can be built in scripting so they don’t even have the excuse that they ran out of recording time.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

jbuhler said:


> The doubles patch can be built in scripting so they don’t even have the excuse that they ran out of recording time.


The worst for me is the measured trills patches in Strings FX. Most of the time I want to use measured trills, I want them for violas. But for some reason viola measured trills weren't included, only violins and cellos...


----------



## Jose7822

Man, I gotta say that I’m very pleased with the sound of the Berlin collection, especially the Brass…wow! They sound so powerful!!

That said, the Strings are not really impressing me thus far. And no, it’s not the legato (at least not yet). I simply can’t get a biting Viola sound for the life of me. None of the articulations offered are cutting it (pun intended). The Violins are not that biting either, but they are better. Am I only one who thinks this? I hope I’m just missing something. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Casiquire

Jose7822 said:


> Man, I gotta say that I’m very pleased with the sound of the Berlin collection, especially the Brass…wow! They sound so powerful!!
> 
> That said, the Strings are not really impressing me thus far. And no, it’s not the legato (at least not yet). I simply can’t get a biting Viola sound for the life of me. None of the articulations offered are cutting it (pun intended). The Violins are not that biting either, but they are better. Am I only one who thinks this? I hope I’m just missing something. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


In what way are they lacking? As far as bite I feel like that's one thing they're good at. If you need more energy, I like the expressive patches and the strong vibrato. Those are intense though; I'll probably be using the soft and immediate sustains for normal moments


----------



## Jose7822

Casiquire said:


> In what way are they lacking? As far as bite I feel like that's one thing they're good at. If you need more energy, I like the expressive patches and the strong vibrato. Those are intense though; I'll probably be using the soft and immediate sustains for normal moments


The Spiccato patches don’t bite at all. They sound exactly like normal Staccato, so when you play fast notes in succession they blend with each other. I’ll post an example of what I mean in a bit.


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## Jose7822

OK, here's a clip with 3 string libraries playing Spiccato. First is NOVO, then Jaeger and finally Berlin Strings. The latter sounds like the musicians are drunk, or something lol. That's the best I could get them to sound, btw:


----------



## Rudianos

Jose7822 said:


> OK, here's a clip with 3 string libraries playing Spiccato. First is NOVO, then Jaeger and finally Berlin Strings. The latter sounds like the musicians are drunk, or something lol. That's the best I could get them to sound, btw:


spot mic 1? the hall swallows that up


----------



## Jose7822

Rudianos said:


> spot mic 1? the hall swallows that up



Of course, I didn’t try that 😑. I’m such a noob.

The timing is still weird, but at least using the Spot mic helped greatly.

Thank you!!


----------



## lettucehat

Jose7822 said:


> Of course, I didn’t try that 😑. I’m such a noob.
> 
> The timing is still weird, but at least using the Spot mic helped greatly.
> 
> Thank you!!


BS sounds the most like actual players to me - just toss a harmonic exciter / saturation on there to get a little more bite. The others have already been processed for that modern bite.


----------



## tim727

Alright I've gone through the entire 56 pages of this thread twice over. I've also listened through all of the Berlin Brass walkthrough videos for SINE and Kontakt multiple times. And I've come to the conclusion that the legatos in SINE really do seem dramatically inferior to Kontakt as a whole. This isn't just a random bug here or there. It's just ... a lot worse.

Maybe I'm crazy but it doesn't even feel to me like the SINE version is just "not as good as the Kontakt version". Rather, Kontakt *sounds really good *and SINE *sounds pretty poor*. I try to be skeptical of my ears since I'm just a hobbyist composer and not a trained musician, but I'm having trouble coming to any conclusion other than the one I've come to at the moment. It's frustrating because after doing a deep dive on the SINE player in general I find many aspects of the UI to actually be much more intuitive and easy to use than Kontakt and it would have been nice to get BB in that format, but given its current state I don't think I can justify that.

So now I need to decide whether to get the Kontakt version or just hold off altogether.


----------



## AEF

Jose7822 said:


> OK, here's a clip with 3 string libraries playing Spiccato. First is NOVO, then Jaeger and finally Berlin Strings. The latter sounds like the musicians are drunk, or something lol. That's the best I could get them to sound, btw:


Use compression. Spiccato is not naturally that loud. Using compression slow attack fast release will give u the more hyped sound.


----------



## Raphioli

tim727 said:


> Alright I've gone through the entire 56 pages of this thread twice over. I've also listened through all of the Berlin Brass walkthrough videos for SINE and Kontakt multiple times. And I've come to the conclusion that the legatos in SINE really do seem dramatically inferior to Kontakt as a whole. This isn't just a random bug here or there. It's just ... a lot worse.
> 
> Maybe I'm crazy but it doesn't even feel to me like the SINE version is just "not as good as the Kontakt version". Rather, Kontakt *sounds really good *and SINE *sounds pretty poor*. I try to be skeptical of my ears since I'm just a hobbyist composer and not a trained musician, but I'm having trouble coming to any conclusion other than the one I've come to at the moment. It's frustrating because after doing a deep dive on the SINE player in general I find many aspects of the UI to actually be much more intuitive and easy to use than Kontakt and it would have been nice to get BB in that format, but given it's current state I don't think I can justify that.
> 
> So now I need to decide whether to get the Kontakt version or just hold off altogether.


@OrchestralTools just has to offer a grace period like some others were saying.
If this BF sale lasts till Dec 2nd, then apply that free upgrade for purchasers up to Dec 2nd.

Better than missing out on potential buyers.


----------



## ModalRealist

I've been using the Kontakt versions since they were released (except for BB, which I didn't previously have). Have now upgraded to Sine. Personally, I think the sound is _way_ better, including the legatos. I just can't understand everyone saying Kontakt legato etc. sounds better. In my opinion, the Kontakt legato is much more _pronounced_, because the crossfade between the sustains and the legato sample isn't as smooth.

Personally, I think the point of legato is to _get out of the way _and maintain the illusion of a real instrument. For me, the Sine version is much more useful for that goal, and much more musical in terms of replicating the behaviour of a real instrument.

Perhaps if playing these things as a 'synth', or wanting extremely pronounced slurring etc., the Kontakt version is better.


----------



## tim727

ModalRealist said:


> I've been using the Kontakt versions since they were released (except for BB, which I didn't previously have). Have now upgraded to Sine. Personally, I think the sound is _way_ better, including the legatos. I just can't understand everyone saying Kontakt legato etc. sounds better. In my opinion, the Kontakt legato is much more _pronounced_, because the crossfade between the sustains and the legato sample isn't as smooth.
> 
> Personally, I think the point of legato is to _get out of the way _and maintain the illusion of a real instrument. For me, the Sine version is much more useful for that goal, and much more musical in terms of replicating the behaviour of a real instrument.
> 
> Perhaps if playing these things as a 'synth', or wanting extremely pronounced slurring etc., the Kontakt version is better.


Interesting take. Perhaps if you had had the Kontakt version of BB you might feel otherwise at least about that. From everything I've seen and heard so far it seems like BB is where the big issues are with comparatively far fewer negative comments about BS and BWW.


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

tim727 said:


> Interesting take. Perhaps if you had had the Kontakt version of BB you might feel otherwise at least about that. From everything I've seen and heard so far it seems like BB is where the big issues are with comparatively far fewer negative comments about BS and BWW.


Please do not mistake quantity for quality. I'm gonna be honest: There are many people commenting and complaining who JUST DON"T KNOW about legato on REAL INSTRUMENTS. Whose only expertise is buying virtual libraries. This leads to a very distorted view of the matter in my opinion. Orchestral tools will improve the SINE version whereas they abandoned support for the Kontakt versions. Make your choice. 

I personally love the Sine versions and see nothing wrong with their legatos. Of course, a knob to give us some more control would be welcome, but not essential for me.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> Please do not mistake quantity for quality. I'm gonna be honest: There are many people commenting and complaining who JUST DON"T KNOW about legato on REAL INSTRUMENTS. Whose only expertise is buying virtual libraries. This leads to a very distorted view of the matter in my opinion. Orchestral tools will improve the SINE version whereas they abandoned support for the Kontakt versions. Make your choice.
> 
> I personally love the Sine versions and see nothing wrong with their legatos. Of course, a knob to give us some more control would be welcome, but not essential for me.


sure....

View attachment 2021-11-29_21-15-15.mp4


(the kontakt is from the original BWW)


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

This forum is driving me crazy sometimes. How, with all the comparisons made between BB Kontakt and BB Sine, including comparisons in the official walkthroughs, how can people find the results _slightly_ different. This is beyond me.

But hey, I probably have no idea about what a real legato sounds like.

Edit : Very sorry for this highly useless post ^^


----------



## ModalRealist

tim727 said:


> Interesting take. Perhaps if you had had the Kontakt version of BB you might feel otherwise at least about that. From everything I've seen and heard so far it seems like BB is where the big issues are with comparatively far fewer negative comments about BS and BWW.


I briefly played BB at a colleagues' studio when it was first launched, and I didn't buy it at the time because I really didn't like it: I loved the _concept_ but hated the playability. In particular, the retongued legato (which is critical to creating realistic brass performances) was just way too slow and unreliably timed.

In the SINE version, this has been fixed in my view. The legato patches feel so much closer to what I'd expect to hear from live players. Obviously, YMMV, but for me (as a trombonist/brass band player) the SINE version sounds so much closer to what I'd expect.


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> This forum is driving me crazy sometimes. How, with all the comparisons made between BB Kontakt and BB Sine, including comparisons in the official walkthroughs, how can people find the results _slightly_ different. This is beyond me.
> 
> But hey, I probably have no idea about what a real legato sounds like.


Because some people post things that are broken on their end thus contributing to the impression of the Sine legatos being broken.
Maybe ask OT support about that? There might be a technical issue with the installation

This is how the Sine version of clarinet 1 sounds on my end. Tree mic, all dynamic layers enabled.
View attachment BWWSINE clarinet1.mp4

What definitely does exist is a difference in legato quality between the original BWW and revive.
Listen to this:
View attachment BWW Kontakt BWW original vs REVIVE.mp4

So, yes, I think the original BWW sound slightly better and maybe OT can do something to get that old sound back. (edit: upper Kontakt instance is original BWW, lower one is REVIVE)


----------



## JTB

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> This forum is driving me crazy sometimes. How, with all the comparisons made between BB Kontakt and BB Sine, including comparisons in the official walkthroughs, how can people find the results _slightly_ different. This is beyond me.
> 
> But hey, I probably have no idea about what a real legato sounds like.
> 
> Edit : Very sorry for this highly useless post ^^


Dude, there has been countless examples posted on this forum of the Sine version of these libraries sounds slightly different (a polite way of saying broken).
No way am I deleting the Kontakt version.


----------



## RogiervG

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> sure....
> 
> View attachment 2021-11-29_21-15-15.mp4
> 
> 
> (the kontakt is from the original BWW)


Uh, i don't see that you are using BWW in SINE? i only see metropolis and tom holkenborg brass as opitons? Note: Metropolis arks are not BWW (patches etc), note2: i don't own metropolis, but still they are not the same patches.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

JTB said:


> Dude, there has been countless examples posted on this forum of the Sine version of these libraries sounds slightly different (a polite way of saying broken).
> No way am I deleting the Kontakt version.


Sorry if I wasn't clear but I totally agree with you and think the SINE version is nowhere near ready at the moment. I have deleted it and am still using Kontakt.


----------



## OleJoergensen

Yesterday I shortly compared Berlin horn 2 legato Kontakt with Sine legato-sustain. The main different to me is the all over sound. Sine version has some “plastic” about (sorry for choice of word), which I dont like. Maybe its because Im used to the Kontakt version. 
The Sine version can play very loud.
If I remember correctly the Sine version is a compressed format…maybe the format is compressed to much….?


----------



## Scalms

Can everyone please post so more A/B examples of Berlin Brass? I've heard some but I want to hear more. And I'd rather not hear ones that are completely broken in Sine (hoping OT will fix these issues).

I'd like to hear legato and tone differenes between the two, of which composers feel are good examples in both kontakt and Sine, perhaps just make it random which instrument to pick, this would be a good experiment. 

There are probably numerous of us on the fence about which version to buy, so your examples could save us hundreds of dollars, if not millions!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

OleJoergensen said:


> Yesterday I shortly compared Berlin horn 2 legato Kontakt with Sine legato-sustain. The main different to me is the all over sound. Sine version has some “plastic” about (sorry for choice of word), which I dont like. Maybe its because Im used to the Kontakt version.
> The Sine version can play very loud.
> If I remember correctly the Sine version is a compressed format…maybe the format is compressed to much….?


Yes, it's not just the legato. Same impression here!


----------



## OleJoergensen

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Yes, it's not just the legato. Same impression here!


Thank you. 
Even the room Sound (Teldex sound) seems a bit different.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Scalms said:


> Can everyone please post so more A/B examples of Berlin Brass? I've heard some but I want to hear more. And I'd rather not hear ones that are completely broken in Sine (hoping OT will fix these issues).
> 
> I'd like to hear legato and tone differenes between the two, of which composers feel are good examples in both kontakt and Sine, perhaps just make it random which instrument to pick, this would be a good experiment.
> 
> There are probably numerous of us on the fence about which version to buy, so your examples could save us hundreds of dollars, if not millions!


A very eloquent A/B is this post by @Robin


----------



## artinro

I’ve worked with live players my entire life and I definitely know what they should sound like, “legato” or otherwise. There are changes in the SINE version on some (not all) instruments throughout the range that are simply objectively worse and less realistic sounding re: legato and no, it isn’t user error if its also in walkthrough videos. I hope and expect OT will address. For now, I’m keeping the Kontakt versions.


----------



## tim727

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> Please do not mistake quantity for quality. I'm gonna be honest: There are many people commenting and complaining who JUST DON"T KNOW about legato on REAL INSTRUMENTS. Whose only expertise is buying virtual libraries. This leads to a very distorted view of the matter in my opinion. Orchestral tools will improve the SINE version whereas they abandoned support for the Kontakt versions. Make your choice.
> 
> I personally love the Sine versions and see nothing wrong with their legatos. Of course, a knob to give us some more control would be welcome, but not essential for me.


I am a multi-instrumentalist but indeed not a professionally trained musician or composer and certainly do not have familiarity with the ins and outs of playing specifically brass instruments. That being said, I'm a human being with ears and when I listened to OT's very own walkthrough video of the Horns for instance, the SINE version made me *cringe* repeatedly whereas the Kontakt version never did. Could it just be that my untrained ears can't discern good quality from bad quality? Perhaps. But if the changes in SINE are considered good quality then I really hope my ears never improve.



ModalRealist said:


> I briefly played BB at a colleagues' studio when it was first launched, and I didn't buy it at the time because I really didn't like it: I loved the _concept_ but hated the playability. In particular, the retongued legato (which is critical to creating realistic brass performances) was just way too slow and unreliably timed.
> 
> In the SINE version, this has been fixed in my view. The legato patches feel so much closer to what I'd expect to hear from live players. Obviously, YMMV, but for me (as a trombonist/brass band player) the SINE version sounds so much closer to what I'd expect.


Hmm interesting. To be honest my hunch about what's going on here is that you are probably in a better position to assess realism than I am, and I would venture to guess that you are accurately evaluating ways in which the SINE version may be more faithful to the real thing. (Note: that was not sarcasm). All I know is that there have been many spots where I've been listening to the SINE version and something just really jumps out as sounding awkward and wonky. And since I have admittedly untrained ears when it comes to brass instruments, that stands out to me much more than any possible improvements that have actually occurred in other spots.


----------



## tim727

As a side note ... I am curious to know if anyone can verify if OT have addressed the dynamics issues between the Horns that many users have complained about from the Kontakt version? (Meaning, are those issues fixed in the SINE version)


----------



## Casiquire

tim727 said:


> Alright I've gone through the entire 56 pages of this thread twice over. I've also listened through all of the Berlin Brass walkthrough videos for SINE and Kontakt multiple times. And I've come to the conclusion that the legatos in SINE really do seem dramatically inferior to Kontakt as a whole. This isn't just a random bug here or there. It's just ... a lot worse.
> 
> Maybe I'm crazy but it doesn't even feel to me like the SINE version is just "not as good as the Kontakt version". Rather, Kontakt *sounds really good *and SINE *sounds pretty poor*. I try to be skeptical of my ears since I'm just a hobbyist composer and not a trained musician, but I'm having trouble coming to any conclusion other than the one I've come to at the moment. It's frustrating because after doing a deep dive on the SINE player in general I find many aspects of the UI to actually be much more intuitive and easy to use than Kontakt and it would have been nice to get BB in that format, but given its current state I don't think I can justify that.
> 
> So now I need to decide whether to get the Kontakt version or just hold off altogether.


Not my experience at all. Keep in mind a lot of the legato examples here are using removed dynamic layers which affects the transitions. Side by side, i could barely tell a difference between vanilla Kontakt and SINE BWW



tim727 said:


> As a side note ... I am curious to know if anyone can verify if OT have addressed the dynamics issues between the Horns that many users have complained about from the Kontakt version? (Meaning, are those issues fixed in the SINE version)


 I don't think they're intended to sound identical anyway. Played in unison, i think they sound great. Played as soloists, they sound great and independent and different from one another. I think that was the goal


----------



## Mike Fox

Question about BSS.

How difficult and how cpu extensive is it to create your own ensemble patches? Unfortunately, BSS doesn’t contain any, and they’re actually a big part of my workflow.


----------



## tim727

Casiquire said:


> Not my experience at all. Keep in mind a lot of the legato examples here are using removed dynamic layers which affects the transitions. Side by side, i could barely tell a difference between vanilla Kontakt and SINE BWW


I'm mostly focused on BB. I'm not as concerned with BWW as I already own it (on Kontakt). I think that most people at this point are aware that disabling one of the dynamic layers will cause problems so I don't think that is the explanation for the majority of the issues we've seen in the thread. Besides, OT's very own walkthrough videos sounded worse than Kontakt, and I'm sure they weren't disabling dynamic layers.



> I don't think they're intended to sound identical anyway. Played in unison, i think they sound great. Played as soloists, they sound great and independent and different from one another. I think that was the goal


I think they were meant to have a different tone and character, but I don't think that the dynamics and volume were meant to differ greatly, but based on feedback from people it seems that that was a thing. Well here's a question for you ... if you record a line for let's say Horn 1 in the SINE version (including some automation for things like modulation, expression etc) and then simply shift the midi over to Horns 2, 3, and 4 without making any changes will it still sound good or will you need to make edits? That's mostly what I'm asking. My sense is that many people felt that in the Kontakt version that was a big limitation so I'm wondering if it remains.


----------



## Aitcpiano

The clarinets Legatos in the SINE version posted in some earlier posts sounds terrible in comparison to the Kontakt versions.

I wish OT would listen and do a period in this sale for users buying now to receive the Kontakt versions for free. This is the only reason I am not buying the full bundle now.


----------



## lettucehat

I see very little connection between playing the real instrument and creating realistic arrangements with virtual instruments. Whenever these debates break out there is always one or two guys touting their decades of playing experience while they're praising a sample library or mockup that just sounds like Soundblaster to experienced and untrained ears alike (not referring to or insulting Sine BB here, which is still obviously so close to sounding like its old self). How many orchestral instruments do Thomas Bergersen, Blakus, Samy, etc play? A few between them, I'm sure. But I'm sure they don't play them all, despite their mockups (or finished productions) being as convincing as they come, top to bottom.

Personally, I know I'm _less_ picky about the sample libraries recreating the instruments I actually play, and I'm not sure why. Maybe because when we know an instrument more intimately, we are aware of just how far from the real thing the samples are and our priorities shift?


----------



## Eptesicus

Aitcpiano said:


> I've not purchased the bundle because of this.


Same . I dont think im going to purchase berlin brass because of it. Will wait till the next sale/when the fixes have been made i think.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> I'm mostly focused on BB. I'm not as concerned with BWW as I already own it (on Kontakt). I think that most people at this point are aware that disabling one of the dynamic layers will cause problems so I don't think that is the explanation for the majority of the issues we've seen in the thread. Besides, OT's very own walkthrough videos sounded worse than Kontakt, and I'm sure they weren't disabling dynamic layers.


I don't think the Sine BB examples do sound worse, though, at least not uniformly. Even though overall I prefer the Kontakt version of the introductory bit for the walkthrough video, for example, there were parts of that where I preferred the Sine version. (I also think that example was a result of dumping old midi onto the new instruments and thinking it worked well enough and they never went back and optimized it.) Yes, there are bad bits; there are bad bits with the Kontakt version too. I do think the Sine version sounds different from the Kontakt version, and I can see why some would prefer the Kontakt version. But I can also see why some would prefer the Sine version. That's how difference tends to work. I'm not buying now for other reasons, but if I was buying I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Sine version, and I do have both the Kontakt and the Sine version of the strings, and I already very much prefer the strings in Sine and will likely move the Kontakt version off the SSD once I get an articulation map worked out for Sine.


----------



## Rudianos

Take what you hear here in this forum with a grain salt. I just got these and have to say - by in large - could not be happier. The clarinet legato is my no means terrible. Its quite nice actually. Not perfect. I have heard better slurs into lower notes. Gets 94% grade from me.


----------



## Eptesicus

Rudianos said:


> Take what you hear here in this forum with a grain salt. I just got these and have to say - by in large - could not be happier. The clarinet legato is my no means terrible. Its quite nice actually. Not perfect. I have heard better slurs into lower notes. Gets 94% grade from me.



What worries me is the obviously broken ones people have demo'd for the brass.

In my experience, fixes in sample libraries are never guaranteed , hence the concern over not having the Kontakt version as well.


----------



## muziksculp

Rudianos said:


> Take what you hear here in this forum with a grain salt. I just got these and have to say - by in large - could not be happier. The clarinet legato is my no means terrible. Its quite nice actually. Not perfect. I have heard better slurs into lower notes. Gets 94% grade from me.


I wouldn't be surprised if OT updates their Berlin Main Orchestral libraries (SINE) periodically, adding more refinements, and improvements to these libraries. These are their Teledex Orchestra Foundations. They will not be ignored.


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> I don't think the Sine BB examples do sound worse, though, at least not uniformly. Even though overall I prefer the Kontakt version of the introductory bit for the walkthrough video, for example, there were parts of that where I preferred the Sine version. (I also think that example was a result of dumping old midi onto the new instruments and thinking it worked well enough and they never went back and optimized it.) Yes, there are bad bits; there are bad bits with the Kontakt version too. I do think the Sine version sounds different from the Kontakt version, and I can see why some would prefer the Kontakt version. But I can also see why some would prefer the Sine version. That's how difference tends to work. I'm not buying now for other reasons, but if I was buying I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Sine version, and I do have both the Kontakt and the Sine version of the strings, and I already very much prefer the strings in Sine and will likely move the Kontakt version off the SSD once I get an articulation map worked out for Sine.


For me the issues here are twofold:

(1) There is no free crossgrade between the versions. If there were, I probably wouldn't think twice.
(2) It's not that I think that SINE sounds uniformly terrible. But I noticed a lot of moments where I found myself really off-put by a transition, especially for faster passages it seems.


----------



## Rudianos

Eptesicus said:


> What worries me is the obviously broken ones people have demo'd for the brass.
> 
> In my experience, fixes in sample libraries are never guaranteed , hence the concern over not having the Kontakt version as well.


if you link to the demos I will retry what they tried - but I have not yet heard any red flags yet. A few articulations swapped.


----------



## tim727

Rudianos said:


> Take what you hear here in this forum with a grain salt. I just got these and have to say - by in large - could not be happier. The clarinet legato is my no means terrible. Its quite nice actually. Not perfect. I have heard better slurs into lower notes. Gets 94% grade from me.


Have you tried BB by any chance? That's the only one I'm focused on to be honest as I already have BWW (and don't plan on getting BS) and have no real need to crossgrade. 

I don't see a reason to take what I see/hear with a grain of salt. All of the samples people here have provided are genuine productions from the library (unless all these people are anti-OT sociopaths, which somehow I doubt). If 9 people don't notice significant issues and 1 does, it doesn't mean that that one person is wrong because they're in the significant minority. Rather it just means that they stumbled upon a thing that the others haven't yet found (unless if the issue is borne of a person-specific environment/setup problem which is technically possible but enough people here have posted issues so I doubt that's what's going on).


----------



## tim727

Can someone try posting an audio snippet of some of the horns playing some fast lines (such that the playable runs get automatically triggered)? Personally that's where I've been noticing a lot of the weirder transitions.


----------



## Aitcpiano

muziksculp said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if OT updates their Berlin Main Orchestral libraries (SINE) periodically, adding more refinements, and improvements to these libraries. These are their Teledex Orchestra Foundations. They will not be ignored.


True but I personally can't pay out all that money for the full bundle until I see that happen, and at that point their may not be a 50% sale and you wont get the Berlin Orchestra for free.


----------



## muziksculp

Aitcpiano said:


> True but I personally can't pay out all that money for the full bundle until I see that happen, and at that point their may not be a 50% sale and you wont get the Berlin Orchestra for free.


It sounds like you don't trust Orch. Tools as a developer, then maybe you should check other developers for orchestral libraries.

Good Luck


----------



## tim727

muziksculp said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if OT updates their Berlin Main Orchestral libraries (SINE) periodically, adding more refinements, and improvements to these libraries. These are their Teledex Orchestra Foundations. They will not be ignored.


I'm not an expert on this matter because I can't say that OT quality issues have affected me personally very much (yet). But I've seen a lot of people complaining about SINE for a long time already and (promised?) issues/features that continue to go unfixed/released. Likewise for BSS I think? That doesn't lend a ton of confidence.

Also I feel like this general trend toward releasing things before they're ready and then slowly fixing them over months and years is a really poor approach that can significantly hurt the consumer. When you buy an allegedly professional grade (and professionally _priced_) library you expect it to be of a certain quality and many people have a finite set of resources and can't just go and get every lib that comes out (despite the best efforts of GAS). So often the moment you take that plunge and let's say splurge on a Berlin lib you're stuck with that for better or worse and left to sit around and just wait until the day that hopefully, finally that glorious update will be released. (It almost reminds me of the "sunk cost fallacy" that keeps people in bad, unfulfilling relationships.) At the very least if a lib IS released with obvious issues, then it is incumbent on the developer to own up to them, take accountability, and provide a very transparent plan to address those issues. Otherwise, to me it feels like false advertisement at best.

Edit: To be clear OT is by far my favorite developer in the sense that I enjoy their products greatly (the ones I've bought at least). It is just frustrating to see some of their development/marketing/customer relations/quality control practices because they can improve a lot in those areas.


----------



## muziksculp

tim727 said:


> I'm not an expert on this matter because I can't say that OT quality issues have affected me personally very much (yet). But I've seen a lot of people complaining about SINE for a long time already and (promised?) issues/features that continue to go unfixed/released. Likewise for BSS I think? That doesn't lend a ton of confidence.
> 
> Also I feel like this general trend toward releasing things before they're ready and then slowly fixing them over months and years is a really poor approach that can significantly hurt the consumer. When you buy an allegedly professional grade (and professionally _priced_) library you expect it to be of a certain quality and many people have a finite set of resources and can't just go and get every lib that comes out (despite the best efforts of GAS). So often the moment you take that plunge and let's say splurge on a Berlin lib you're stuck with that for better or worse and left to sit around and just wait until the day that hopefully, finally that glorious update will be released. (It almost reminds me of the "sunk cost fallacy" that keeps people in bad, unfulfilling relationships.) At the very least if a lib IS released with obvious issues, then it is incumbent on the developer to own up to them, take accountability, and provide a very transparent plan to address those issues. Otherwise, to me it feels like false advertisement at best ... and greedy deception at worst.


As I posted above, If you don't trust a developer, you should look for an alternative developer that you trust. Simple as that. No one is forcing anyone to buy OT libraries. Lots of options available in the market.


----------



## tim727

muziksculp said:


> As I posted above, If you don't trust a developer, you should look for an alternative developer that you trust. Simple as that. No one is forcing anyone to buy OT libraries. Lots of options available in the market.


I'm aware of that. Criticizing certain practices of a developer does not preclude one from still being interested in purchasing their products. I've always found that to be an interesting response to a constructive criticism. "Well you can go elsewhere". I feel that such a response adds nothing to the conversation and is dismissive of valid concerns. But to each their own I guess.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> (1) There is no free crossgrade between the versions. If there were, I probably wouldn't think twice.
> (2) It's not that I think that SINE sounds uniformly terrible. But I noticed a lot of moments where I found myself really off-put by a transition, especially for faster passages it seems. It's concerning to me that given the ample examples that forum users here have provided, Hendrik subsequently put out a video basically touting the legato of SINE and cherrypicking a melodic line or two in SINE that sounded fine. To me this was very dismissive and borderline disrespectful as anyone with ears should be able to hear that at least in the samples that some users here have provided, some of the transitions really sound awful. I mean can there really be a debate about that point?


Hendrik's video was posted early after the release, and some of the more egregious misfires were not yet identified. You call it cherry picking, but I generally preferred his examples in the Sine player. By calling it "cherry picking" you seemed to agree that the examples he played showed the Sine version in a good light. Others might disagree, which is fine, but different is different. 

I personally found the kontakt version of BS to be a PITA where the legato was constantly misfiring and the articulation sets were complicated to manage. I have had many fewer of those issues with Sine with respect to misfiring legatos, and we'll see how the articulation sets for it work out. I'm not saying everyone should prefer Sine. I'm not even saying that I prefer Sine in all respects, but overall I do greatly prefer the Sine implementation of BS, and I'll be retiring the Kontakt version once I get the articulation sets for the Sine version worked out. (That's not an easy nut to crack so it may be a few weeks still—maybe even lasting into the spring, unless Babylon Waves comes to the rescue with a viable solution before then. The way OT broke down the instruments of BS for the Sine implementation has me far more concerned than anything else.)


----------



## Aitcpiano

muziksculp said:


> It sounds like you don't trust Orch. Tools as a developer, then maybe you should check other developers for orchestral libraries.
> 
> Good Luck


That's not the case at all. I just don't feel like waiting months on end after paying out a large sum of money for updates. I also go by the principle of buy it how it is now and not how it may be in the future. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether I trust or do not trust Orchestral Tools.


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> Hendrik's video was posted early after the release, and some of the more egregious misfires were not yet identified. You call it cherry picking, but I generally preferred his examples in the Sine player. By calling it "cherry picking" you seemed to agree that the examples he played showed the Sine version in a good light. Others might disagree, which is fine, but different is different.
> 
> I personally found the kontakt version of BS to be a PITA where the legato was constantly misfiring and the articulation sets were complicated to manage. I have had many fewer of those issues with Sine with respect to misfiring legatos, and we'll see how the articulation sets for it work out. I'm not saying everyone should prefer Sine. I'm not even saying that I prefer Sine in all respects, but overall I do greatly prefer the Sine implementation of BS, and I'll be retiring the Kontakt version once I get the articulation sets for the Sine version worked out. (That's not an easy nut to crack so it may be a few weeks still—maybe even lasting into the spring, unless Babylon Waves comes to the rescue with a viable solution before then. The way OT broke down the instruments of BS for the Sine implementation has me far more concerned than anything else.)


I recall not noticing issues in the video he specifically posted in response to the legato issues noted in this thread. That being said, that isn't really very surprising because it's not like every single transition sounds bad. Maybe "cherry picking" was an inappropriate term for me to use, so apologies there, but I will say that it is bizarre that someone posted audio examples showing poor-sounding transitions in the legato and he basically responded by saying the legato is better. When he demoed it -- to my recollection -- it sounded decent enough in that limited moment but that doesn't somehow discount the moments that the forum posters found where it did NOT sound decent. That's the part I found baffling about the video. It's like taking your car to the mechanic and saying "hey the front driver side window won't roll down" and they respond by opening and closing the front _passenger_ side window and then telling you that the window control mechanism is much improved over the last model.

Edit: I understand and appreciate that you prefer the SINE versions. I also appreciate you taking the time to elucidate why. I'm not claiming that SINE won't be or isn't better for some people depending on their unique workflows and needs. Maybe it will even be better for most. No idea. I just find the response to the issues posted here to be odd. Perhaps you are correct that most of the issues were posted after the video response we're discussing, I really can't recall. But that said, the video still seemed very dismissive of whatever had been already posted here prior to the videos release, and clearly there were enough things posted because otherwise that video would not have been released to begin with


----------



## muziksculp

Aitcpiano said:


> That's not the case at all. I just don't feel like waiting months on end after paying out a large sum of money for updates. I also go by the principle of buy it how it is now and not how it may be in the future. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether I trust or do not trust Orchestral Tools.


OK, I get you. Loud and Clear.  

I think if you feel that the Current SINE versions of OT's Berlin Main Libraries have too many issues, (not sure on what that is based though), then just wait until they fix these issues, and buy them when they are on Sale again. If that's what you feel comfortable doing, then there is no point in me trying to convince, or recommend you to do anything else.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> Also I feel like this general trend toward releasing things before they're ready and then slowly fixing them over months and years is a really poor approach that can significantly hurt the consumer.


I personally strongly disagree with this. I'd much prefer to have access to an instrument that is mostly working and have capacity added to it than waiting for years for a library to show up. BSS had issues when it was released, and the update didn't really address many of them (the library still has irritating issues), but it is still a marvelous library to work with and worth the money I paid for it, and I'd hate to have had to wait 9 more months for OT to get everything just so, fixing things that don't impede basic functionality. (I also agree with the philosophy that you buy on current capability without expecting that anything will be fixed.) I think it likely that the Mains were released prematurely, and it was likely not a good idea to have attempted to do it all at once, but even in this case I've only heard one case where the Sine version was producing something unusable as opposed to something suboptimal, and that misfire is clearly a bug that I can't imagine OT won't address in an early update. So far I'm also really loving the strings in the Sine implementation.

That said, the biggest risk with OT is that they won't fix things in a timely manner. That was true with the Kontakt libraries, and while they have been somewhat better about fixing Sine libraries, I wouldn't call their maintenance schedule regular. So I would very much assess buying the libraries with that in mind, and anyone who is contemplating buying the libraries should make sure they will be satisfied even if the library doesn't change much in the coming months (or years).


----------



## Aitcpiano

muziksculp said:


> OK, I get you. Loud and Clear.
> 
> I think if you feel that the Current SINE versions of OT's Berlin Main Libraries have too many issues, (not sure on what that is based though), then just wait until they fix these issues, and buy them when they are on Sale again. If that's what you feel comfortable doing, then there is no point in me trying to convince, or recommend you to do anything else.


That is what I will do. However, if they had included the Kontakt version now during this sale then any reservations I currently have would have been mitigated and I would have gone ahead with the purchase.


----------



## Aitcpiano

muziksculp said:


> OK, I get you. Loud and Clear.
> 
> I think if you feel that the Current SINE versions of OT's Berlin Main Libraries have too many issues, (not sure on what that is based though), then just wait until they fix these issues, and buy them when they are on Sale again. If that's what you feel comfortable doing, then there is no point in me trying to convince, or recommend you to do anything else.


I'm also not too sure I would find too many issues with the SINE versions. That might not be the case, but the fact I cant try the libraries out for myself in SINE without any refund also stops me from buying. I simply cannot properly determine if some of these issues I am reading and hearing would end up significant issues for my workflow. If they were then I'd end up stuck and very disappointed without anyway to get a refund or re-sale.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> I recall not noticing issues in the video he specifically posted in response to the legato issues noted in this thread. That being said, that isn't really very surprising because it's not like every single transition sounds bad. Maybe "cherry picking" was an inappropriate term for me to use, so apologies there, but I will say that it is bizarre that someone posted audio examples showing poor-sounding transitions in the legato and he basically responded by saying the legato is better. When he demoed it -- to my recollection -- it sounded decent enough in that limited moment but that doesn't somehow discount the moments that the forum posters found where it did NOT sound decent. That's the part I found baffling about the video. It's like taking your car to the mechanic and saying "hey the front driver side window won't roll down" and they respond by opening and closing the front _passenger_ side window and then telling you that the window control mechanism is much improved over the last model.


As I recall, most of what was posted before Hendrik posted his video was comparisons of the Sine legato with the pixelpoet trick applied to the Kontakt version, and so addressing real, but fairly subtle differences in the string and woodwind legatos. Hendrik was pointing out where he thought the Sine versions were materially improved. The brass stuff, especially the loud stuff where there are more problems but also where using legato is arguably less crucial, was brought up later (except, as I recall, for a bit with one of the horns).


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> I personally strongly disagree with this. I'd much prefer to have access to an instrument that is mostly working and have capacity added to it than waiting for years for a library to show up. BSS had issues when it was released, and the update didn't really address many of them (the library still has irritating issues), but it is still a marvelous library to work with and worth the money I paid for it, and I'd hate to have had to wait 9 more months for OT to get everything just so, fixing things that don't impede basic functionality. (I also agree with the philosophy that you buy on current capability without expecting that anything will be fixed.) I think it likely that the Mains were released prematurely, and it was likely not a good idea to have attempted to do it all at once, but even in this case I've only heard one case where the Sine version was producing something unusable as opposed to something suboptimal, and that misfire is clearly a bug that I can't imagine OT won't address in an early update. So far I'm also really loving the strings in the Sine implementation.
> 
> That said, the biggest risk with OT is that they won't fix things in a timely manner. That was true with the Kontakt libraries, and while they have been somewhat better about fixing Sine libraries, I wouldn't call their maintenance schedule regular. So I would very much assess buying the libraries with that in mind, and anyone who is contemplating buying the libraries should make sure they will be satisfied even if the library doesn't change much in the coming months (or years).


This is a valid point and in fact I agree with all of it. I think my prior comment that preceded this response from you was missing one key point, that being that it's fine for a library to be released in somewhat of an "incomplete" state AS LONG AS the developer makes it CLEAR what the current gaps and issues are. If I'm given all the information as to the current limitations of a lib and I choose to buy it anyway then presumably I've determined that it's still worthwhile for me to do so. The issue occurs however when that information is NOT communicated and instead the hapless consumer, that realistically should be able to assume a certain degree of quality from a $1000 library, discovers glaring and even (for them) product-breaking problems after having already shelled out their hard-earned money. That person, feeling betrayed and duped is then left to simmer in frustration and resentment as they wait for an update that may never come. THAT is something that I really hope we can agree is not ok. 

When it comes down to it it's really quite simple: 
(1) Don't misrepresent your product. 
(2) If there are obvious flaws that you already know about at the time of release, make it clear to customers what those are and be transparent on your plan/timeline for updates.
(3) If issues come up post release that you genuinely were unaware of, and if they are significant, then have an appropriate refund policy in place.


----------



## tim727

Aitcpiano said:


> I'm also not too sure I would find too many issues with the SINE versions. That might not be the case, but the fact I cant try the libraries out for myself in SINE without any refund also stops me from buying. I simply cannot properly determine if some of these issues I am reading and hearing would end up significant issues for my workflow. If they were then I'd end up stuck and very disappointed without anyway to get a refund or re-sale.


This is honestly my exact position as well. Part of me thinks that with the library underneath my actual fingers I might be ok with it. But it's the risk of getting trapped with an expensive library I'm unhappy with that is a challenge to overcome.


----------



## tc9000

I bought the Kontakt versions of the brass, strings, and woodwinds and I couldent be happier. I love the sound. These are stunningly good libraries.


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> As I recall, most of what was posted before Hendrik posted his video was comparisons of the Sine legato with the pixelpoet trick applied to the Kontakt version, and so addressing real, but fairly subtle differences in the string and woodwind legatos. Hendrik was pointing out where he thought the Sine versions were materially improved. The brass stuff, especially the loud stuff where there are more problems but also where using legato is arguably less crucial, was brought up later (except, as I recall, for a bit with one of the horns).


Perhaps you're correct. I'll defer to your memory because I honestly can't remember the chronology well enough.

I feel like if Hendrik came out and made a strong statement here either about acknowledging the BB issues and pledging to address them or at least providing a free crossgrade then I would probably purchase even the SINE version to be honest. I just don't like the idea of getting my hands on the lib and then really feeling let down and not having the ability to remedy that in any way.


----------



## Casiquire

tim727 said:


> Perhaps you're correct. I'll defer to your memory because I honestly can't remember the chronology well enough.
> 
> I feel like if Hendrik came out and made a strong statement here either about acknowledging the BB issues and pledging to address them or at least providing a free crossgrade then I would probably purchase even the SINE version to be honest. I just don't like the idea of getting me hands on the lib and then really feeling let down and not having the ability to remedy that in any way.


Also, a lot of people were disabling layers to make a "fair" comparison which breaks the transitions in a lot of these instruments in SINE


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> This is a valid point and in fact I agree with all of it. I think my prior comment that preceded this response from you was missing one key point, that being that it's fine for a library to be released in somewhat of an "incomplete" state AS LONG AS the developer makes it CLEAR what the current gaps and issues are. If I'm given all the information as to the current limitations of a lib and I choose to buy it anyway then presumably I've determined that it's still worthwhile for me to do so. The issue occurs however when that information is NOT communicated and instead the hapless consumer, that realistically should be able to assume a certain degree of quality from a $1000 library, discovers glaring and even (for them) product-breaking problems after having already shelled out their hard-earned money. That person, feeling betrayed and duped is then left to simmer in frustration and resentment as they wait for an update that may never come. THAT is something that I really hope we can agree is not ok.
> 
> When it comes down to it it's really quite simple:
> (1) Don't misrepresent your product.
> (2) If there are obvious flaws that you already know about at the time of release, make it clear to customers what those are and be transparent on your plan/timeline for updates.
> (3) If issues come up post release that you genuinely were unaware of, and if they are significant, then have an appropriate refund policy in place.


This is nice in theory. I'm not sure how a company really manages it in practice since companies have to be careful about what they acknowledge and promise, this being the most litigious of all possible worlds. The refund issue is also for some reason evidently complicated. I don't know if the draconian policies that most developers beyond a certain size implement is just a convention of how this business works or if there is something inherent in the structure of digital products that leads them to that solution. But it's pretty ubiquitous in the industry, so I don't see it changing however much we might complain. But then too what's a forum for if not to complain about such things that leaves the world short of its potential!


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

jbuhler said:


> As I recall, most of what was posted before Hendrik posted his video was comparisons of the Sine legato with the pixelpoet trick applied to the Kontakt version, and so addressing real, but fairly subtle differences in the string and woodwind legatos. Hendrik was pointing out where he thought the Sine versions were materially improved. The brass stuff, especially the loud stuff where there are more problems but also where using legato is arguably less crucial, was brought up later (except, as I recall, for a bit with one of the horns).


Just wanted to point out that my exemples did not use that Pixelpoet trick everyone's raving about  Neither did @Robin or @SimonCharlesHanna (Please guys correct me if I'm wrong). 

A big part of the debate indeed moved to "We want to be able to tweak the legato like we are able to do in Kontakt with the Pixelpoet trick" but that is, in my humble opinion, another topic.


----------



## tim727

Casiquire said:


> Also, a lot of people were disabling layers to make a "fair" comparison which breaks the transitions in a lot of these instruments in SINE


I can't say for certain what the full range of people posting did, but my sense was that a couple people may have done it initially before realizing it was a problem? I doubt all of them had fortissimo disabled and at least one of them explicitly indicated that it wasn't.


----------



## Casiquire

Is anyone else running into crackling and CPU spikes when rapidly switching between shorts and legato patches in the strings? And if so, is there a setting that helps or is there a potential bug? Thanks for any insight


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> This is nice in theory. I'm not sure how a company really manages it in practice since companies have to be careful about what they acknowledge and promise, this being the most litigious of all possible worlds. The refund issue is also for some reason evidently complicated. I don't know if the draconian policies that most developers beyond a certain size implement is just a convention of how this business works or if there is something inherent in the structure of digital products that leads them to that solution. But it's pretty ubiquitous in the industry, so I don't see it changing however much we might complain. But then too what's a forum for if not to complain about such things that leaves the world short of its potential!


I can't really comment on that as I have no window into it. But I'll just say as a consumer, something seems amiss about paying a high sum of money for a product that has non-trivial or even breaking bugs and then for the developer not to take action to rectify that for you.


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> Just wanted to point out that my exemples did not use that Pixelpoet trick everyone's raving about  Neither did @Robin or @SimonCharlesHanna (Please guys correct me if I'm wrong).
> 
> A big part of the debate indeed moved to "We want to be able to tweak the legato like we are able to do in Kontakt with the Pixelpoet trick" but that is, in my humble opinion, another topic.


Yes, but I think Hendrik's video was a response to folks expressing preference for the old legato when both were working as intended (or augmented with the pixelpoet trick), not places that the Sine legato seemed not to work very well at all. At least that's what I took him to be addressing, because my recollection is that the broken legato examples (except for one in the horn) mostly came later, and his video makes no sense as a response to that issue. In any case, his video appeared very early, like maybe two days or so after the initial release, and I haven't seen anyone from OT around the forum for awhile now.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

jbuhler said:


> Yes, but I think Hendrik's video was a response to folks expressing preference for the old legato when both were working as intended (or augmented with the pixelpoet trick), not places that the Sine legato seemed not to work very well at all. At least that's what I took him to be addressing, because my recollection is that the broken legato examples (except for one in the horn) mostly came later, and his video makes no sense as a response to that issue. In any case, his video appeared very early, like maybe two days or so after the initial release, and I haven't seen anyone from OT around the forum for awhile now.


You're absolutely right! I'm sure they are working on an update now.


----------



## tim727

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> You're absolutely right! I'm sure they are working on an update now.


One would certainly hope! I will almost definitely buy this lib if I have reason to believe the issues presented in this thread will be fixed within a reasonable amount of time. For me nothing can ever match with the tone of OT libs. They are my favorite (though hats off to Cinematic Studio for some ridiculously playable and still great sounding products as well) and so I very much would like to be able to take advantage of this 50% off opportunity. I think we only have about 3 days left to go for this sale though so time is ticking :/


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> I can't really comment on that as I have no window into it. But I'll just say as a consumer, something seems amiss about paying a high sum of money for a product that has non-trivial or even breaking bugs and then for the developer not to take action to rectify that for you.


I wouldn't disagree with you at all. It's just that's the way the business seems to operate. Some companies have better QC on release, some do a great job fixing. VSL has a decent trial and return policy on most products, so if that's important to you, they are a good bet. Some companies (not many) allow resale, so they might be good bets too. The more you work with these libraries, the better you get at assessing whether some issue that has been unearthed—and pretty much every library has some issues—is likely to cause you problems. So there's that too.


----------



## jbuhler

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> You're absolutely right! I'm sure they are working on an update now.


On OT time that means it should arrive about this time next year!

I do expect a first update relatively soon, maybe even before everyone goes on holiday, that will quash the big bugs. The question is whether there is a second update in a timely fashion—say around May—that addresses some of the other things.


----------



## G_Erland

Casiquire said:


> Is anyone else running into crackling and CPU spikes when rapidly switching between shorts and legato patches in the strings? And if so, is there a setting that helps or is there a potential bug? Thanks for any insight


No, nothing like that here and ive been testing this tonight..


----------



## Marsen

tim727 said:


> I recall not noticing issues in the video he specifically posted in response to the legato issues noted in this thread.





jbuhler said:


> I personally strongly disagree with this. I'd much prefer to have access to an instrument that is mostly working and have capacity added to it than waiting for years for a library to show up.


Well, I think you both are having solid arguments.

In short: SINE is the future, Kontakt is the past.
Or for now, one could say: Kontakt is the present, SINE want to be that in the future. 
I can already see benefits we are getting from SINE. That's good.
And I can see all these problems, which are kind of part of the process in this huge effort in this transformation.
I think, it is reasonable to question the Q&A of OT.
Thinks are happen slowly.
On the other hand, OT for me still is a trustable developer. 
Sure one of the best out there, and I love the OT sound!

But we have to stay critical. Otherwise, nothing changes.
This: "I eat, what you give me" attitude will get you nowhere.
I have respect for the developer, and we should respect different opinions from users.
In this time of transition , I think too, OT should give users the free choice of Kontakt or Sine. This product is on a good way, but not ready.


----------



## Marsen

Casiquire said:


> Is anyone else running into crackling and CPU spikes when rapidly switching between shorts and legato patches in the strings? And if so, is there a setting that helps or is there a potential bug? Thanks for any insight


Had this in BSS for some time. After switching several articulations, it seem to disappear.


----------



## Casiquire

Marsen said:


> Had this in BSS for some time. After switching several articulations, it seem to disappear.


Hmm, how do you mean?


----------



## Marsen

Casiquire said:


> Hmm, how do you mean?


As i said.
Cracking and spikes while fast switching articulations. 
Then I stopped playing and just switched some articulations forth and back.
After that, crackling and spikes disappeared.
I don't know the reason.


----------



## bvaughn0402

Finally had a chance to try Strings on Sine ... haven't looked into various issues, nor compared it to the Kontakt version ...

But for ME ... I just love these strings. I didn't really hear a difference from what I'm used to.

But these strings just always spark creativity for me ...


----------



## muziksculp

Hi,

Let's also not forget that OT have expanded the number of their employees, and facility, so the pace, and frequency of updates, and bug fixes that we are used to experience in the past, will most likely change to the better, now that they have more software engineers/programmers assigned to specific tasks by their management. 

I'm very optimistic that the SINE version will in a short while be the best one to use, and the Kontakt version will stagnate at where it currently is, since they are focused on SINE. (Not Kontakt). 

What I would like to see is more features in SINE, i.e. Purge features to lower RAM usage, Legato editing faders for those who want to tweak the legatos, ADSR envelope, CC# Learn feature for the various mic faders, ...etc., Editable velocity response curves, GUI improvements for the mixer, and other parts of the SINE interface, i.e. easier to spot which articulation is selected, ...etc. etc. 

I would also love to see OT assign a company Representative at VI-C , just like VSL, and CineSamples have done. They have really been super helpful for us here, and a perfect example of Sample Developers who are on the right track when it comes to customer care, and support. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Scalms

Deep thought of the day….

if I combine Berlin Brass and JXL, since they are recorded 90deg to each other, will this create an acoustic tornado that will self destruct my DAW? 😋


----------



## lettucehat

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> Let's also not forget that OT have expanded the number of their employees, and facility, so the pace, and frequency of updates, and bug fixes that we are used to experience in the past, will most likely change to the better, now that they have more software engineers/programmers assigned to specific tasks by their management.
> 
> I'm very optimistic that the SINE version will in a short while be the best one to use, and the Kontakt version will stagnate at where it currently is, since they are focused on SINE. (Not Kontakt).
> 
> What I would like to see is more features in SINE, i.e. Purge features to lower RAM usage, Legato editing faders for those who want to tweak the legatos, ADSR envelope, CC# Learn feature for the various mic faders, ...etc., Editable velocity response curves, GUI improvements for the mixer, and other parts of the SINE interface, i.e. easier to spot which articulation is selected, ...etc. etc.
> 
> I would also love to see OT assign a company Representative at VI-C , just like VSL, and CineSamples have done. They have really been super helpful for us here, and a perfect example of Sample Developers who are on the right track when it comes to customer care, and support.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


I think we can all agree on what would be ideal to see from OT. My main concern is not about what they're able to do per se, but whether they are interested in doing things in a way that lines up with my hopes. At first that legato video they put out was nice to see, but the more I thought about it the more it seemed like a clear message that they don't intend to change the legato much, much less create ways for us to do the same. That's what concerns me - everything is is more bug-like and will be addressed I'm sure.


----------



## Zanshin

Scalms said:


> Deep thought of the day….
> 
> if I combine Berlin Brass and JXL, since they are recorded 90deg to each other, will this create an acoustic tornado that will self destruct my DAW? 😋


Is BSS recorded narrow or wide like JXL?


----------



## muk

For my workflow, Sine has definite issues. You can not put more than one polymap on one midi channel. I work with one instrument per channel, and I would like to use one polymap for legatos and one for short articulations: not possible with Sine. Also, on my system, selecting a polymap via keyswitches does not work. More often than not it does not recognize all keyswitches, and not in the right order. This then overrides all settings I have made for a polymap, and I have to set it up anew. This bug makes polymaps unuseable for or me at the moment.

I wrote to support a week ago. Haven't heard back. Unfortunately, this too aligns with my previous experiences with their support. Unresponsive. And when they did get back to me after months (sic),they flatly said 'yes, it is a bug, but we won't fix it' (that was regarding the niente feature in Berlin Strings First Chairs Kontakt, which didn't and still doesn't work).

That mic merge did not work for a year, but still they prominently advertised it on their website does not reflect well on the company for me either. Combine this with the fact that you can not test whether a library works as advertised on your system, and you can't return it or resell it if it doesn't, and this does not instill confidence in me as a buyer. 

Me personally, from that history with Orchestral Tools I don't have trust in them as a company, and I don't have trust in the Sine player. That's why I didn't buy Berlin Brass, even if I like the recordings in that library quite a bit. I simply don't trust OT to put them in a program that will work for my workflow on my system.


----------



## tim727

muk said:


> For my workflow, Sine has definite issues. You can not put more than one polymap on one midi channel. I work with one instrument per channel, and I would like to use one polymap for legatos and one for short articulations: not possible with Sine. Also, on my system, selecting a polymap via keyswitches does not work. More often than not it does not recognize all keyswitches, and not in the right order. This then overrides all settings I have made for a polymap, and I have to set it up anew. This bug makes polymaps unuseable for or me at the moment.
> 
> I wrote to support a week ago. Haven't heard back. Unfortunately, this too aligns with my previous experiences with their support. Unresponsive. And when they did get back to me after months (sic),they flatly said 'yes, it is a bug, but we won't fix it' (that was regarding the niente feature in Berlin Strings First Chairs Kontakt, which didn't and still doesn't work).
> 
> That mic merge did not work for a year, but still they prominently advertised it on their website does not reflect well on the company for me either. Combine this with the fact that you can not test whether a library works as advertised on your system, and you can't return it or resell it if it doesn't, and this does not instill confidence in me as a buyer.
> 
> Me personally, from that history with Orchestral Tools I don't have trust in them as a company, and I don't have trust in the Sine player. That's why I didn't buy Berlin Brass, even if I like the recordings in that library quite a bit. I simply don't trust OT to put them in a program that will work for my workflow on my system.


That is a pretty damning comment on OT and the way they approach customer relations to be honest. In particular, advertising a feature prominently when it doesn't even work and they know it is genuinely deceitful and there is no excuse for that.


----------



## Vik

Whether one buys a screwdriver or a Tesla: if it doesn’t work as advertised, they need to fix it, or the user should be allowed to cancel the purchase. I can’t see why this shouldn’t be valid for software as well, including sample libraries. I hope this will change in the not too distant future.


----------



## Saxer

muk said:


> ...they flatly said 'yes, it is a bug, but we won't fix it' (that was regarding the niente feature in Berlin Strings First Chairs Kontakt, which didn't and still doesn't work).


I tried the niente feature in Berlin Woodwinds Sine yesterday but it doesn't seem to work there either.


----------



## Raphioli

Vik said:


> Whether one buys a screwdriver or a Tesla: if it doesn’t work as advertised, they need to fix or you can cancel the purchase. I can’t see why this shouldn’t be valid for software as well, including sample libraries. I hope this will change in the not too distant future.



I completely agree.

If sample libraries were refundable, I think developers would put more effort in to fixing said bugs/glitches rather than spending their time pumping out more libraries.


----------



## muk

Vik said:


> Whether one buys a screwdriver or a Tesla: if it doesn’t work as advertised, they need to fix or you can cancel the purchase. I can’t see why this shouldn’t be valid for software as well, including sample libraries. I hope this will change in the not too distant future.


Probably yes. It's difficult to test that though, and for most not worth the hassle.

I don't want to make a big issue out of this, and I'd like to point out that this is just my experience with the company. Just one person. I'm sure there are a lot of happy customers too. And this thread shows that there are many people who like to work with Sine and prefer it over Kontakt. Again, I'm just a single person who has issues with the player. Still, for me of course it's not cool that it doesn't work and support does not respond.


----------



## jadedsean

Hey quick question guys, for those of you who had the Kontakt versions, did you have to pay to upgrade to the Sine player?


----------



## Raphioli

jadedsean said:


> Hey quick question guys, for those of you who had the Kontakt versions, did you have to pay to upgrade to the Sine player?


Depends on when you bought the Kontakt version.
I got the SINE versions for free for the libraries I already own.
For people who bought it during this BF, you'll have to pay 10% of the full price. (no discounts)


----------



## Eptesicus

Vik said:


> Whether one buys a screwdriver or a Tesla: if it doesn’t work as advertised, they need to fix or you can cancel the purchase. I can’t see why this shouldn’t be valid for software as well, including sample libraries. I hope this will change in the not too distant future.


Totally agree. i wish there was more consumer protection in the sample library world.

have been burnt too many times now.

personally i think limited time demos should be the norm, as well as the ability to get refunds within certain periods for obvious flaws (obviously this would only work for libraries with copy protection, so not sure how kontakt full/non player libraries would work).


----------



## jadedsean

Raphioli said:


> Depends on when you bought the Kontakt version.
> I got the SINE versions for free for the libraries I already own.
> For people who bought it during this BF, you'll have to pay 10% of the full price. (no discounts)


Thank for the info much appreciated.


----------



## leonardo

Casiquire said:


> Not my experience at all. Keep in mind a lot of the legato examples here are using removed dynamic layers which affects the transitions.


That is not true - in my test I didn't remove any layers, I didn't apply the "Pixelpoet trick", I just used the instruments as they were provided by OT. And as far as I remember there were only 1 or 2 people who had deactivated the top layer in their horn examples, the rest used the instruments completely normally. I've admittedly only tried three instruments (horn 1, flute 1, clarinet 1) in Sine until now but in my opinion the horn and the clarinet were clearly inferior to the Kontakt versions, in the case of the horn so much so, that I wouldn't even know where to begin if I wanted to report all the deficiencies in the Sine version... it's not just one or two transitions that are bad, it's the entire patch that doesn't work so well anymore. I don't have time to write down every bad transition and report it to OT, I'm not their beta tester. Of course there are also transitions that are fine but in general the legato patches of the first horn and the first clarinet seem clearly inferior to me.
I find it quite puzzling that Hendrik Schwarzer reacted with a video stating that everything is intentional and that the new versions are better than the old ones instead of acknowledging that there are legitimate concerns. So I unfortunately don't have high hopes that they will address these issues... it's a shame.


----------



## Seizh Avel

Casiquire said:


> Is anyone else running into crackling and CPU spikes when rapidly switching between shorts and legato patches in the strings? And if so, is there a setting that helps or is there a potential bug? Thanks for any insight


I had this behavior with Miroire, not yet tested in Berlin.
It happened with patches changes, especially legatos when there are too many instruments in a single SINE session.
I've limited the instruments to 4 per SINE session to solve the problem.


----------



## Scalms

Zanshin said:


> Is BSS recorded narrow or wide like JXL?


not exactly sure, but i can't imagine they would not have kept it consistent with all the other Berlin series. So I would anticipate only Holkenberg Brass is recorded with the room turned.


----------



## JF

FYI. I contacted support due to the missing Noise mics in Berlin Strings--SINE edition. They informed me there are no plans to add these to the SINE version. That's a little disappointing, I always felt they added some character and realism, but maybe that is just me.


----------



## Zanshin

Scalms said:


> not exactly sure, but i can't imagine they would not have kept it consistent with all the other Berlin series. So I would anticipate only Holkenberg Brass is recorded with the room turned.


Yeah, I was trying to make sense of the BSS session pictures shortly before your comment. Made me wonder.


----------



## Breaker

Saxer said:


> I tried the niente feature in Berlin Woodwinds Sine yesterday but it doesn't seem to work there either.


I fought with SINE Niente in another thread and noticed that CC1 needs to go down all the way to 0 in order to get niente, while in Kontakt the threshold is slightly higher.
At least my modwheel (Novation Impulse) won't go lower than 2.


----------



## holywilly

I’d say go for the bundle, I believe more library updates are coming. 

I have no regret buying the SINE bundle, all four sections sound authentic, the legatos aren’t the greatest but manageable, mic merging is working as advertised, and great not-so-clean sampling which are perfect to stack with other libraries.

I finally am financially able to purchase OT libraries and 50% + 20% off (from Berlin orchestra) is no brainer!


----------



## muziksculp

Again, lack of communication from OT. about these topics, is not helping users feel more confident, and comfortable that things will change to the better. Although I am optimistic they will. 

Hopefully they will give us some positive feedback soon. This is their thread. It would make sense to post something about our discussion. 

@OrchestralTools ,

If you are reading these posts, we welcome some feedback from you. 

Thanks.


----------



## emilio_n

Yes… I am waiting for some feedback about this tread from @OrchestralTools before the end of the sales to take my final decision.


----------



## Igorianych

JF said:


> FYI. I contacted support due to the missing Noise mics in Berlin Strings--SINE edition. They informed me there are no plans to add these to the SINE version. That's a little disappointing, I always felt they added some character and realism, but maybe that is just me.


Yeah, I also liked the mic noise ... and it's sad without it. Perhaps, hypothetically, use the Kontakt for this channel, or maybe I'll get used to it without it. This also applies to noise mic in woodwind.


----------



## Marsen

Marsen said:


> Well, I think you both are having solid arguments.
> 
> In short: SINE is the future, Kontakt is the past.
> Or for now, one could say: Kontakt is the present, SINE want to be that in the future.
> I can already see benefits we are getting from SINE. That's good.
> And I can see all these problems, which are kind of part of the process in this huge effort in this transformation.
> I think, it is reasonable to question the Q&A of OT.
> Thinks are happen slowly.
> On the other hand, OT for me still is a trustable developer.
> Sure one of the best out there, and I love the OT sound!
> 
> But we have to stay critical. Otherwise, nothing changes.
> This: "I eat, what you give me" attitude will get you nowhere.
> I have respect for the developer, and we should respect different opinions from users.
> In this time of transition , I think too, OT should give users the free choice of Kontakt or Sine. This product is on a good way, but not ready.


Ok, I revise what I said.
This SINE is just crap.
After changing an external ssd with SINE content, it ask for the new library path.
Every second time I direct it to the new ssd, SINE crashes

So annoying


----------



## Chungus

Igorianych said:


> Yeah, I also liked the mic noise ... and it's sad without it. Perhaps, hypothetically, use the Kontakt for this channel, or maybe I'll get used to it without it. This also applies to noise mic in woodwind.


Having only ever used the Revive version, I didn't even know the WW had a noise mic until just now. Indeed a damn shame these were removed.


----------



## Marsen

I contacted OT support. 
For those who can get some information out of this, here´s a crash report.


----------



## Scalms

Man, such a hard decision. Picking up Berlin Brass will complete the series for me.

But I can’t for the life of me figure out if I should get Kontakt or Sine. Numerous posts of composers saying they are Brass players, etc and Kontakt sounds best. Then new brass players come along and say Sine is more realistic! Get you story straight everyone! Lol

Then I listen to OT demos and Kontakt sounds better, and other OT play throughs and Sine sounds better. Sheesh!

Then people say OT will fix Sine. But have they ever fixed Kontakt? I have no idea what OT is thinking, except for the fact that they’ve only shown concern for one trumpets patch


Do I want the FFFFFF layer?
Do I need to conserve disk space by getting Sine?
Save $20 by bundling Sine?
Get Kontakt because it will not be available anymore?

And there are 2+ days left

Anyone else in the same boat?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

JF said:


> FYI. I contacted support due to the missing Noise mics in Berlin Strings--SINE edition. They informed me there are no plans to add these to the SINE version. That's a little disappointing, I always felt they added some character and realism, but maybe that is just me.


Hmm I hope this isn’t a broader indication of OT’s future plans with the SINE migration. I believe there’s also some articulations they haven’t ported over and some folks thought they might come in an update. However, history does not seem to indicate OT does this - for example, the Teldex IR was removed from the soloist woodwinds in SINE and has not been re-added. It greatly worries me that OT’s attitude may be “this is complete, take it or leave it”. Other developers continue to enhance their offerings with updates for free (even massive ones like Spitfire) especially given community feedback. I have not seen that from OT over the years (outside of the brass FF layer) - nor even acknowledging the feedback here (and this is coming from somebody who is generally happy with the SINE versions and even posted a mock-up with it).


----------



## Scalms

One question for current Kontakt and sine brass owners…..

Sine Berlin brass feels closer (tree mix). Kontakt tone is more distant. Can you adequately mimic Kontakt tree tone with AB and surround mics in Sine?


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Hmm I hope this isn’t a broader indication of OT’s future plans with the SINE migration. I believe there’s also some articulations they haven’t ported over and some folks thought they might come in an update. However, history does not seem to indicate OT does this - for example, the Teldex IR was removed from the soloist woodwinds in SINE and has not been re-added. It greatly worries me that OT’s attitude may be “this is complete, take it or leave it”. Other developers continue to enhance their offerings with updates for free (even massive ones like Spitfire) especially given community feedback. I have not seen that from OT over the years - nor even acknowledging the feedback here (and this is coming from somebody who is generally happy with the SINE versions and even posted a mock-up with it).


Some things seem very incomplete with Sine. The new legato scripting (fingered legato) in the strings, for instance, is only in violin I. I hope they plan to bring that at least to the cellos. So we might get some updates of that sort—if we're lucky.

But other than quashing the big bugs and fixing the legato of the new brass FF layer (which seems to be having carry-over effects to the legatos throughout the brass) I'm honestly not expecting much else.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hello everyone! 

We’ve just released an update for Berlin Brass, which addresses some of your feedback on the trumpet legato. There have also been a few minor adjustments to some of the other legatos in the collection. 

We hope this update affirms our commitment to both the Berlin Series and SINE. Our flagship orchestra is very close to our hearts, and we’ll always make sure it sounds as good as it possibly can.

Thanks again for all your comments, and very best wishes from the entire OT team.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> We’ve just released an update for Berlin Brass, which addresses some of your feedback on the trumpet legato. There have also been a few minor adjustments to some of the other legatos in the collection.
> 
> We hope this update affirms our commitment to both the Berlin Series and SINE. Our flagship orchestra is very close to our hearts, and we’ll always make sure it sounds as good as it possibly can.
> 
> Thanks again for all your comments, and very best wishes from the entire OT team.



So cool, will download right away.. I bought the Sine version of Berlin Brass and I agree that some of the Legatos felt rather odd for a library with such a good reputation (and it's high price tag).

I look forward to check out the update and it is great to hear from you that maintenance for the series will not be forgotten!

Thank you for reading and reacting to our comments!


----------



## Chungus

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Hmm I hope this isn’t a broader indication of OT’s future plans with the SINE migration. I believe there’s also some articulations they haven’t ported over and some folks thought they might come in an update. However, history does not seem to indicate OT does this - for example, the Teldex IR was removed from the soloist woodwinds in SINE and has not been re-added. It greatly worries me that OT’s attitude may be “this is complete, take it or leave it”. Other developers continue to enhance their offerings with updates for free (even massive ones like Spitfire) especially given community feedback. I have not seen that from OT over the years (outside of the brass FF layer) - nor even acknowledging the feedback here (and this is coming from somebody who is generally happy with the SINE versions and even posted a mock-up with it).


From what I can tell, the missing articulations are: 
Stings: Spiccato exposed, all trills orchestrator patches, legato ostinato arp, playable glissandi.
Brass: TO patches.
WW: Flute I, non-tempo sinc'd doubles. Both bassoons, TO patches.


----------



## Jett Hitt

A cynic would say that this is a hollow gesture to stimulate Black Friday sales before the end of the sale, as it was a pretty minor update, but it seems like a pretty positive development to me. I just can't imagine that OT is going to let their flagship libraries just founder and move on. These libraries are the backbone of their catalog. They built their reputation with them, and it makes no sense that they would release a lesser version of the originals and not improve them. I pulled the trigger immediately when the offer went up, but even if I hadn't, I would still buy them believing that OT would bring them up to snuff. That said, I like really Sine, so I have that bias.


----------



## muziksculp

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> We’ve just released an update for Berlin Brass, which addresses some of your feedback on the trumpet legato. There have also been a few minor adjustments to some of the other legatos in the collection.
> 
> We hope this update affirms our commitment to both the Berlin Series and SINE. Our flagship orchestra is very close to our hearts, and we’ll always make sure it sounds as good as it possibly can.
> 
> Thanks again for all your comments, and very best wishes from the entire OT team.


THANK YOU @OrchestralTools , We appreciate your feedback, and prompt action to fix issues being reported here, in your flagship Orchestra, Berlin Series SINE. 

I'm very confident you are going to make this series even better, with each update, and refinement.
This is your baby. It's worth giving it a lot of TLC.  🧡 and I'm sure that's what you are doing very passionately.

I'm guessing you read my comments about SINE, and many other posts about it, and the Berlin Orch. Main SINE libraries, on this thread. I hope you can move SINE forward with more features to make it a better player, and offer more editing options for users, and continue improving the Berlin Orch. Series (SINE) further via frequent updates.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> We’ve just released an update for Berlin Brass, which addresses some of your feedback on the trumpet legato. There have also been a few minor adjustments to some of the other legatos in the collection.
> 
> We hope this update affirms our commitment to both the Berlin Series and SINE. Our flagship orchestra is very close to our hearts, and we’ll always make sure it sounds as good as it possibly can.
> 
> Thanks again for all your comments, and very best wishes from the entire OT team.


Thank you so much


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> A cynic would say that this is a hollow gesture to stimulate Black Friday sales before the end of the sale, as it was a pretty minor update, but it seems like a pretty positive development to me. I just can't imagine that OT is going to let their flagship libraries just founder and move on. These libraries are the backbone of their catalog. They built their reputation with them, and it makes no sense that they would release a lesser version of the originals and not improve them. I pulled the trigger immediately when the offer went up, but even if I hadn't, I would still buy them believing that OT would bring them up to snuff. That said, I like really Sine, so I have that bias.


There were things in the brass library in particular that really had to be fixed, so I'm not surprised they got fixed quickly, though I am impressed that they updated _this_ quickly. I'll be interested to hear from folks whether all the obvious bugs got squashed and if OT managed to get the FF layer better integrated into the rest (as well as fixing the scripting problems the FF layer seems to have introduced into other layers).


----------



## Rudianos

No one can be entirely objective with their own life (product). We are the outside perspective, we are so important to every products development. Keep playing, testing, and documenting. This is how the economy actually works. Salute to @OrchestralTools


----------



## muziksculp




----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> There were things in the brass library in particular that really had to be fixed, so I'm not surprised they got fixed quickly, though I am impressed that they updated _this_ quickly.


My prediction came true. OT is on a roll, and they are much more proactive, and able to fix, and improve their products faster, and more frequently. I'm so happy this is happening


----------



## tim727

muziksculp said:


> My prediction came true. OT is on a roll, and they are much more proactive, and able to fix, and improve their products faster, and more frequently. I'm so happy this is happening


Perhaps yes, but we should wait for people to post here with the results before we get TOO excited. I'm definitely waiting anxiously though. If they could just fix those ff transitions I would buy the lib for sure. The quick update is certainly encouraging though. Let's see!


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> My prediction came true. OT is on a roll, and they are much more proactive, and able to fix, and improve their products faster, and more frequently. I'm so happy this is happening


One data point. And I expect each of the Mains will receive updates either just before OT goes on holiday or in early January when they get back. The question is whether there will be regular updates after that. I'm still waiting for the viola legato bug in BSS to be fixed, and I reported that last January, I think, shortly after BSS was released.


----------



## tim727

I asked this question in a sample talk thread just now as well, but since this thread probably has more eyes I'll ask here too:

BB and to a lesser extent BWW have gotten plenty of attention here as far as legato issues and other audible bugs and such. Comparatively I've seen much less talk about BS. It's not clear to me if that's because BS does not have the same kind of issues occurring in BB and BWW or if perhaps there is some other reason. The other issue is that OT's strings walkthrough mostly covered Violins 1 for some bizarre reason. I did like the way it sounded, but it would have been nice to get fuller walkthroughs of the other sections as well.

Can someone possibly comment on the quality of BS on SINE? Has there been a similar deterioration in legato in spots as seen in BB and BWW? Are there other new audible issues or bugs in the patches that didn't exist before? Which version would you ultimately recommend?

Also any kind of actual audio comparisons between especially the celli and basses between Kontakt and SINE would be GREATLY appreciated!

So far whatever feedback I have seen from people has been mostly positive (or at least not negative), but I'd rather get info from as many data points as possible.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> I'm still waiting for the viola legato bug in BSS to be fixed, and I reported that last January, I think, shortly after BSS was released.


I would recommend reporting this again to OT Support. Just in case it hasn't been spotted.


----------



## muziksculp

tim727 said:


> If they could just fix those ff transitions I would buy the lib for sure. The quick update is certainly encouraging though. Let's see!


Can you be more specific ? Which library, which instrument ? What articulation ?


----------



## tim727

muziksculp said:


> Can you be more specific ? Which library, which instrument ? What articulation ?


Oh I was referring to Berlin Brass specifically. I would love to buy the lib but the legatos really put me off. If they could just fix that then I would almost certainly buy it. I'm also interested in getting BS though I just haven't seen enough info on it yet and for some strange reason OT focused strongly on Violins 1 in the walkthrough.


----------



## muziksculp

tim727 said:


> Oh I was referring to Berlin Brass specifically. I would love to buy the lib but the legatos really put me off. If they could just fix that then I would almost certainly buy it.


Well, they just updated Berlin Brass, which Berlin Brass Instrument/s are you referring to ? All of them, or a specific one, or two ?


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> I asked this question in a sample talk thread just now as well, but since this thread probably has more eyes I'll ask here too:
> 
> BB and to a lesser extent BWW have gotten plenty of attention here as far as legato issues and other audible bugs and such. Comparatively I've seen much less talk about BS. It's not clear to me if that's because BS does not have the same kind of issues occurring in BB and BWW or if perhaps there is some other reason. The other issue is that OT's strings walkthrough ONLY covered Violins 1 for some bizarre reason. I did like the way it sounded, but it made me worried that issues were perhaps being covered up in celli, basses, etc.
> 
> Can someone possibly comment on the quality of BS on SINE? Has there been a similar deterioration in legato in spots as seen in BB and BWW? Are there other new audible issues or bugs in the patches that didn't exist before? Which version would you ultimately recommend?
> 
> Also any kind of actual audio comparisons between especially the celli and basses between Kontakt and SINE would be GREATLY appreciated!
> 
> So far whatever feedback I have seen from people has been mostly positive (or at least not negative), but I'd rather get info from as many data points as possible.


So far I like the Sine port of BS. I am concerned that there will be no way to set it up with one track per instrument, without writing a Logic script to propagate the CCs across midi channels. And the way polymap works, it is not very useful, as @muk has noted.

One thing I did notice now that I have both versions of BS set up in the same project with articulation sets and everything is that they respond differently to the midi controller. It's not like they are wholly different libraries, but it's also more than you typically get in an update. And it's not just the legatos that behave differently. I do have to go back over everything and make sure that everything is set up the same.

I have to do some further tests, but my initial impression is also that Sine BS sits better with BSS than did Kontakt BS.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> I have to do some further tests, but my initial impression is also that Sine BS sits better with BSS than did Kontakt BS.


Good to hear that. 

THANKS


----------



## tim727

muziksculp said:


> Well, they just updated Berlin Brass, which Berlin Brass Instrument/s are you referring to ? All of them, or a specific one, or two ?


A lot of the legatos for the trumpets and the horns sounded poor. It seems that the ones going up to mf are mostly -- or even completely -- fine. But it's once you start getting up into the higher dynamics that the legatos go off the rails, in a very bad way. Horn 2 and 4 seemed a little better than Horn 1, which was rather terrible to my ears, but they weren't immune to the problems either. I can't comment much on the trombones and tuba as I didn't hear much of them. It could be that the update they just put out has addressed these issues but I have no way to know yet. If it has, I will almost definitely purchase BB.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

muziksculp said:


>


So have they fixed the issues with legato?


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I have to do some further tests, but my initial impression is also that Sine BS sits better with BSS than did Kontakt BS.


Now that is especially good news. I know you weren't happy with it before.


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So have they fixed the issues with legato?


Can you be more specific ? Which Brass Instrument ?


----------



## lettucehat

None of this mentions the woodwind legatos specifically (although it could fall under the "other" stuff they referred to) so I'm curious if there's an update for woodwinds? Either way there is apparently just a bunch of content no longer in the Sine version of BWW so I'm not sure how much it matters.

Just remembered when Special Bows came out on Sine, and how I bought them in Kontakt but also got the Sine version with no fuss or extra fees at all (and stuck with Kontakt, by the way). It would all be much simpler this way.


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> So have they fixed the issues with legato?


https://vi-control.net/community/th...berlin-series-on-sine-now.117239/post-4985314


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Made some new comparisons and...
*drumroll*
... Looks like it's much better! Feels a lot closer to the original library.
I don't really know what happened, but those are great news.

Edit : This is just a quick reaction after testing a few instruments


----------



## G_Erland

tim727 said:


> Oh I was referring to Berlin Brass specifically. I would love to buy the lib but the legatos really put me off. If they could just fix that then I would almost certainly buy it. I'm also interested in getting BS though I just haven't seen enough info on it yet and for some strange reason OT only put out a Violins 1 walkthrough.


Doesnt the walkthrough feature all the instruments, if not necessarily one by one?


----------



## Robin

Trumpet 1 after update. First Kontakt Second Sine, Tree Mic, all Vel Layers enabled, Modwheel adjusted to reach similar results, triggering only slurred legato in both cases.

View attachment Tpt1_PostUpdate(2).mp3

(EDIT): And Trumpet 2, similar configuration:
View attachment Tpt2_PostUpdate.mp3


----------



## tim727

G_Erland said:


> Doesnt the walkthrough feature all the instruments, of not necessarily one by one?


You are actually right and I've edited my initial comment to reflect that. At the time I wrote it I had honestly forgotten that the other instruments were in there at all since it was so heavily focused on Violins 1. When I went back and rewatched the video I saw that actually all sections made an appearance at some point, but still it's not nearly the same as doing a full in depth walkthrough on each. I have listened to the individual section demos on the website, but a video walkthrough would have still been greatly appreciated. Not sure why they did section walkthroughs for all other libs but not BS.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

jbuhler said:


> Some things seem very incomplete with Sine. The new legato scripting (fingered legato) in the strings, for instance, is only in violin I. I hope they plan to bring that at least to the cellos. So we might get some updates of that sort—if we're lucky.
> 
> But other than quashing the big bugs and fixing the legato of the new brass FF layer (which seems to be having carry-over effects to the legatos throughout the brass) I'm honestly not expecting much else.


fingered legato was an extra patch they recorded for violins 1 only, after the release of BS because they felt the original was a bit heavy on slurs


----------



## Raphioli

Robin said:


> Trumpet 1 after update. First Kontakt Second Sine, Tree Mic, all Vel Layers enabled, Modwheel adjusted to reach similar results, triggering only slurred legato in both cases.
> 
> View attachment 64012


hmm... I won't say anything. I hope its just me hearing things.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> You are actually right and I've edited my initial comment to reflect that. At the time I wrote it I had honestly forgotten that the other instruments were in there at all since it was so heavily focused on Violins 1. When I went back and rewatched the video I saw that actually all sections made an appearance at some point, but still it's not nearly the same as doing a full in depth walkthrough on each. I have listened to the individual section demos on the website, but a video walkthrough would have still been greatly appreciated. Not sure why they did section walkthroughs for all other libs but not BS.


The strings only have an overview video. The other sections all had deeper dives into the instruments in addition to the overview video.


----------



## tim727

Robin said:


> Trumpet 1 after update. First Kontakt Second Sine, Tree Mic, all Vel Layers enabled, Modwheel adjusted to reach similar results, triggering only slurred legato in both cases.
> 
> View attachment 64012


@Robin Any chance you could really push the dynamics a bit more? From all the samples I've heard the legatos in the lower dynamics (even before update) were more or less ok and it was only once getting up into the higher range and perhaps rapidly switching between them that things really went off the rails.


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Raphioli said:


> hmm... I won't say anything. I hope its just me hearing things.


----------



## jbuhler

Raphioli said:


> hmm... I won't say anything. I hope its just me hearing things.


It's not. Neither is perfect, I would say, but the Sine version... hmm.


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> The strings only have an overview video. The other sections all had deeper dives into the instruments in addition to the overview video.


Yeah I'm aware. That's exactly what is frustrating me! It makes it a bit tougher to have confidence buying the lib when they haven't showcased the whole thing. It's once again a pretty baffling decision from OT. The feedback I've seen so far makes me feel like BS is probably ok, but still it would be nice to have full walkthroughs.


----------



## G_Erland

tim727 said:


> You are actually right and I've edited my initial comment to reflect that. At the time I wrote it I had honestly forgotten that the other instruments were in there at all since it was so heavily focused on Violins 1. When I went back and rewatched the video I saw that actually all sections made an appearance at some point, but still it's not nearly the same as doing a full in depth walkthrough on each. I have listened to the individual section demos on the website, but a video walkthrough would have still been greatly appreciated. Not sure why they did section walkthroughs for all other libs but not BS.


I guess it might still come, but there is obviously a huge amount of stuff to cover!


----------



## Robin

tim727 said:


> @Robin Any chance you could really push the dynamics a bit more? From all the samples I've heard the legatos in the lower dynamics (even before update) were more or less ok and it was only once getting up into the higher range and perhaps rapidly switching between them that things really went off the rails.


Max Modwheel in both (Tpt1):
View attachment Tpt1_PostUpdate(3).mp3


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> Yeah I'm aware. That's exactly what is frustrating me! It makes it a bit tougher to have confidence buying the lib when they haven't showcased the whole thing. It's once again a pretty baffling decision from OT. The feedback I've seen so far makes me feel like BS is probably ok, but still it would be nice to have full walkthroughs.


Agreed! And a most strange decision!


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Chungus said:


> From what I can tell, the missing articulations are:
> Stings: Spiccato exposed, all trills orchestrator patches, legato ostinato arp, playable glissandi.
> Brass: TO patches.
> WW: Flute I, non-tempo sinc'd doubles. Both bassoons, TO patches.


Spic exposed is now called spic and the original spic is called spic serial


----------



## Raphioli

Robin said:


> (EDIT): And Trumpet 2, similar configuration:
> View attachment Tpt2_PostUpdate.mp3



The Trumpet 2 you've added didn't have the problem I was hearing in Trumpet 1.


----------



## jbuhler

Raphioli said:


> The Trumpet 2 you've added didn't have the problem I was hearing in Trumpet 1.


The super redundancy of Berlin Brass to the rescue!


----------



## Robin

It's not redundant if you need all 3 tpts for a polyphonic passage.

Not wanting to be overly picky here and I do see some improvements but even with that Tpt2 I feel it is more lifeless and sterile in that passage compared to the Kontakt counterpart but might be a matter of taste.


----------



## lettucehat

At least what I'm hearing could be remedied with just slightly longer transitions.. it's getting there for sure. After seeing that list of all the patches they dropped though, that's a bummer. TOs and such.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> My prediction came true. OT is on a roll, and they are much more proactive, and able to fix, and improve their products faster, and more frequently. I'm so happy this is happening


I'm hoping steady cash from Berklee helps!


----------



## QuiteAlright

Getsumen said:


> Nah they wanted it perma set to 400, so in that case edu would apply which would make the pricing absurd


Sorry, not sure I understand. Are you saying OT is going to reduce the "standard" price to 400?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Robin said:


> Trumpet 1 after update. First Kontakt Second Sine, Tree Mic, all Vel Layers enabled, Modwheel adjusted to reach similar results, triggering only slurred legato in both cases.
> 
> View attachment Tpt1_PostUpdate(2).mp3
> 
> (EDIT): And Trumpet 2, similar configuration:
> View attachment Tpt2_PostUpdate.mp3


Why is there a pitch wobble in the SINE legato transitions??

The Kontakt one sounds so good :(


----------



## Getsumen

QuiteAlright said:


> Sorry, not sure I understand. Are you saying OT is going to reduce the "standard" price to 400?


No. The comment i was responding to wanted it to be.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Oh my, this thing has a long way to go. Just tried to load up Trumpet 1. Switched to the triplet phrase, and it crashed Logic. It has happened twice in a row now.


----------



## jbuhler

Robin said:


> It's not redundant if you need all 3 tpts for a polyphonic passage.
> 
> Not wanting to be overly picky here and I do see some improvements but even with that Tpt2 I feel it is more lifeless and sterile in that passage compared to the Kontakt counterpart but might be a matter of taste.


For tpt2 I think it's a matter of taste, and perhaps your greater familiarity with the Kontakt version. I prefer either tpt 2 renditions to both of the tpt 1 takes, because the kontakt version of tpt 1 is not exactly good either.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I can confirm that without exception, choosing the triplet phrase articulation on trumpet one will freeze or crash Logic every time on my system. Also found some strange artifacts in the espressivo long patch in the first violin in some notes. (Try playing D#5 and E5 (Middle C=C4) Seems to be a pizzicato mixed in after about 1/8 of a second.

Using the tree, AB, and leader mics takes 5.3GB for just the main patch (longs and shorts) of violin 1. Merging the three mics was a really long process, shockingly long (30 minutes?). Merging the mics brought it down to 1.8GB. Considering that I would likely layer these strings with BSS, I can't see how you could run a full orchestra without 128GB of RAM. It is going to require a careful selection process of the articulations at the onset. I can't quite map out in my head how this is going to work when I look at the way that OT has split up these samples. All the simplicity that I loved about Sine has evaporated with Berlin Strings.

It took me 7 days and 12 hours to download everything, so I have just now started playing with it. I kind of thought that all the moaning about it was hyperbole, but boy howdy this thing is really not ready for prime time.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> We’ve just released an update for Berlin Brass, which addresses some of your feedback on the trumpet legato. There have also been a few minor adjustments to some of the other legatos in the collection.
> 
> We hope this update affirms our commitment to both the Berlin Series and SINE. Our flagship orchestra is very close to our hearts, and we’ll always make sure it sounds as good as it possibly can.
> 
> Thanks again for all your comments, and very best wishes from the entire OT team.


Hi @OrchestralTools - could you please consider allowing users who bought the SINE version to also download the Kontakt versions (even if there's a download fee) please? I don't see any reason to block us from doing so. Kontakt provides certain advantages over SINE still - RAM purging being a very important one for example.


----------



## coprhead6

Just tried the trumpet 1 legato with the new patch.
MUCH improved, thank you!


----------



## lettucehat

How were these trill orchestrator patches that they apparently did away with?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

lettucehat said:


> How were these trill orchestrator patches that they apparently did away with?


They we're just playable (like in CSS) - all the trills are just separated now. IIRC


----------



## jadedsean

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Hmm I hope this isn’t a broader indication of OT’s future plans with the SINE migration. I believe there’s also some articulations they haven’t ported over and some folks thought they might come in an update. However, history does not seem to indicate OT does this - for example, the Teldex IR was removed from the soloist woodwinds in SINE and has not been re-added. It greatly worries me that OT’s attitude may be “this is complete, take it or leave it”. Other developers continue to enhance their offerings with updates for free (even massive ones like Spitfire) especially given community feedback. I have not seen that from OT over the years (outside of the brass FF layer) - nor even acknowledging the feedback here (and this is coming from somebody who is generally happy with the SINE versions and even posted a mock-up with it).


Is the Teldex IR also in BWW legacy?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

jadedsean said:


> Is the Teldex IR also in BWW legacy?


Why would Teldex IR be in BWW given the instruments were already recorded in Teldex? The Soloists were recorded dry, hence the need for the Teldex IR.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> . Merging the mics brought it down to 1.8GB. Considering that I would likely layer these strings with BSS, I can't see how you could run a full orchestra without 128GB of RAM. It is going to require a careful selection process of the articulations at the onset. I can't quite map out in my head how this is going to work when I look at the way that OT has split up these samples. All the simplicity that I loved about Sine has evaporated with Berlin Strings.


Sine is better with RAM than Kontakt, and you can likely change the DFD and get a bit better RAM savings, but yes BS remains a huge library. I also dislike the way OT chose to split up the samples. This is exactly the same kind of complexity that made the Capsule version a PITA. The Sine version is quite improved in workflow but I’m not happy about this.


----------



## G_Erland

we can only hope that sine will allow for listing articulations across sets…i want to think that this is a limitation OT wants to squash. Also, to @Jett Hitt - that ram does seem high, ill have to check, but I cant remember seeing such a high number. I have to say though - the strings run smooth on my 64Gb rig, but not so much on a lower spec MacBook. No dropouts or anything but quite a bit of weirdness indicating struggle with pulling everything fast enough..


----------



## tim727

I'm kind of surprised that there haven't been more audio examples from pre and post BB update. Can someone post a Horn comparison by any chance?


----------



## tim727

coprhead6 said:


> Just tried the trumpet 1 legato with the new patch.
> MUCH improved, thank you!


Do you really feel that sounds good?? I wouldn't be able to use SINE Trumpet 1, though as @jbuhler correctly said the Kontakt version wasn't exactly knocking it out of the park either. Both Trumpet 2 versions sound leaps and bounds better than Trumpet 1. I would give the edge to the Kontakt version but the SINE version sounds good to me too (and honestly very similar to the Kontakt version at least in this excerpt). I wonder though how Trumpet 2 sounded before the update. Perhaps before the update it was already not that broken?

I'm really feeling pretty torn at the moment. On the one hand it's nice to see that OT came out with *such a fast* update. On the other hand, since I don't have pre-update comparisons and don't own either version of BB it's hard for me to know how much the update actually improved things. Also, it's concerning to me that evidently OT does not believe that Trumpet 1 sounds ... terrible? Or else I would think that they would have said something like: "Hey, we recognize Trumpet 1 is broken. We're working hard on a fix and will provide an update as soon as we know more." It's just weird to me. I mean it's their own product. I'm assuming multiple people there hopefully played around with Trumpet 1 quite a bit and surely at least one (honestly, ALL) of those people must have noticed how bad it sounds?


----------



## Michael Antrum

This is what I hate about these sales. 

They pressure people to make a decision on a product for which there are no returns/refunds/resale and even at 50% off it is a substantial sum of money. It seems pretty clear that Berlin on SINE isn't really ready for primetime, and from the experiences of earlier libraries, I'd be very surprised if some of the problems didn't still exist this time next year. Plus, of course, that someone's 'bug' is another persons 'design decision' - so there is no guarantee that something you don't like is going to be 'fixed' at all.

I didn't jump on the 50% off last time, because my iMac maxed at 64gb, and the Kontakt versions need at least double that for a full template (which is something to bear in mind if you are thinking about the Kontakt version). This time, SINE is clearly not ready (does it even have a manual as I can't seem to find one ?).

I have owned Berlin WW since a long time ago, so I will be waiting for the next time there is a 50% sale and then I'll look again. 

If there isn't another 50% sale in the future (and I'm sure as I can be that there will be) - I'm sure I'll survive......


----------



## dhmusic

tim727 said:


> Trumpet 1 sounds ... terrible?


What makes you say that? I kinda like it tbh... 

My feelings aren't hurt or anything just wondering... *sniff*


----------



## tim727

Michael Antrum said:


> This is what I hate about these sales.
> 
> They pressure people to make a decision on a product for which there are no returns/refunds/resale and even at 50% off it is a substantial sum of money. It seems pretty clear that Berlin on SINE isn't really ready for primetime, and from the experiences of earlier libraries, I'd be very surprised if some of the problems didn't still exist this time next year. Plus, of course, that someone's 'bug' is another persons 'design decision' - so there is no guarantee that something you don't like is going to be 'fixed' at all.


Your position is understandable but I feel that your ire would be more suitably directed at the fact that OT's quality control seems extremely poor and they don't seem to have a great track record of addressing issues. If those things were different from what they are, I doubt anyone would be minding having the opportunity to get great products at 50% off


----------



## dhmusic

Michael Antrum said:


> This is what I hate about these sales.
> 
> They pressure people to make a decision on a product for which there are no returns/refunds/resale and even at 50% off it is a substantial sum of money. It seems pretty clear that Berlin on SINE isn't really ready for primetime, and from the experiences of earlier libraries, I'd be very surprised if some of the problems didn't still exist this time next year. Plus, of course, that someone's 'bug' is another persons 'design decision' - so there is no guarantee that something you don't like is going to be 'fixed' at all.
> 
> I didn't jump on the 50% off last time, because my iMac maxed at 64gb, and the Kontakt versions need at least double that for a full template (which is something to bear in mind if you are thinking about the Kontakt version). This time, SINE is clearly not ready (does it even have a manual as I can't seem to find one ?).
> 
> I have owned Berlin WW since a long time ago, so I will be waiting for the next time there is a 50% sale and then I'll look again.
> 
> If there isn't another 50% sale in the future (and I'm sure as I can be that there will be) - I'm sure I'll survive......


To be fair, we're partly to blame for pushing expectations so far around this time of year. It's kind of ridiculous on both ends.


----------



## tim727

dhmusic said:


> What makes you say that? I kinda like it tbh...
> 
> My feelings aren't hurt or anything just wondering... *sniff*


Between my considerable sleep deprivation and admittedly poor musical vocabulary I would describe it as almost a chorus like effect on some of the notes/transitions? Or it almost sounds out of tune in spots? Or both? It's hard to describe but can you honestly listen to Trumpet 1 in Kontakt and then in SINE and tell me that it doesn't sound dramatically inferior in SINE? (I will admit the Kontakt one isn't perfect either but way better by leaps and bounds)

Some of the comments in this thread over the last few days praising the sound of BB on SINE have honestly confounded me. If anyone is still having any doubts check out the play through that @SimonCharlesHanna did yesterday (he posted a dedicated thread in sample talk). Many parts of the lib honestly sounded abysmal.


----------



## Living Fossil

Robin said:


> You can also fully "purge" in Sine, problem is that as soon as you play one note it will load the entire instrument. So if you need just a few kb worth of spiccato notes from that violin, you will need to load the entire several GB large instrument (or unload all non-Spiccato playing techniques by hand).


Is Orchestral Tools working on this?
According to the (online) manual this isn't the way the purging should work.

@OrchestralTools : Maybe you can make a statement with regards to this bug.


----------



## dhmusic

tim727 said:


> Between my considerable sleep deprivation and admittedly poor musical vocabulary I would describe it as almost a chorus like effect on some of the notes/transitions? Or it almost sounds out of tune in spots? Or both? It's hard to describe but can you honestly listen to Trumpet 1 in Kontakt and then in SINE and tell me that it doesn't sound dramatically inferior in SINE? (I will admit the Kontakt one isn't perfect either but way better by leaps and bounds)


turn off x-fade for now and it'll help a lot. Use "switch" dynamic layers. I actually default to this on just about every patch I use.

You have to switch from CC mode to Vel mode first to do this


----------



## babylonwaves

jbuhler said:


> There were things in the brass library in particular that really had to be fixed, so I'm not surprised they got fixed quickly, though I am impressed that they updated _this_ quickly.


fixing things quickly might be a side effect of using their own player. They can release what they want without going though a third party.


----------



## tim727

dhmusic said:


> turn off x-fade for now and it'll help a lot. Use "switch" dynamic layers. I actually default to this on just about every patch I use.
> 
> You have to switch from CC mode to Vel mode first to do this


Hmm interesting. But that's not really a solution is it? I mean who wants to be prevented from using CC1 for dynamics?

That said, if you have SINE BB, is there a chance you could post an example of Trumpet 1 using switch dynamic layers as you mentioned? I'd be curious to hear how it sounds.


----------



## dhmusic

tim727 said:


> Hmm interesting. But that's not really a solution is it? I mean who wants to be prevented from using CC1 for dynamics?
> 
> That said, if you have SINE BB, is there a chance you could post an example of Trumpet 1 using switch dynamic layers as you mentioned? I'd be curious to hear how it sounds.


Sure I can give it a shot.


----------



## tim727

dhmusic said:


> Sure I can give it a shot.


Thanks, that would be awesome.


----------



## dhmusic

Here a quick test. The legato seems to work better if you add it to the non legato patches instead of the scripted one.

The second test is staccatos, first with x-fade, then with switch. It's subtle but really noticeable. At least I think it is. Plus it all adds up from one instrument to the next.


----------



## Fry777

dhmusic said:


> The legato seems to work better if you add it to the non legato patches instead of the scripted one.


What do you mean by scripted one ? I thought the scripted ones were the "artificial" ones, not the true legatos.
Are you referring to taking a simple sustain patch and turning ON the legato option in the "Leg" page ?


----------



## lucor

Is anyone here who can tell me how much it costs to complete the full Berlin Bundle if you already own BWW Revive, Berlin Percussion and Berlin Strings? Still pondering if I should update to BWWR and get Berlin Brass.
Thanks!


----------



## dhmusic

Fry777 said:


> What do you mean by scripted one ? I thought the scripted ones were the "artificial" ones, not the true legatos.
> Are you referring to taking a simple sustain patch and turning ON the legato option in the "Leg" page ?


Yes. By scripted I mean the ones that are designed for legato/labeled +LEG in case that's not the common lingo.


----------



## ummon

dhmusic said:


> Here a quick test. The legato seems to work better if you add it to the non legato patches instead of the scripted one.


I'm more concerned of that buzzing upper dynamics which comes too abruptly. How many dynamic layers are there on trumpet?


----------



## dhmusic

ummon said:


> I'm more concerned of that buzzing upper dynamics which comes too abruptly. How many dynamic layers there are on trumpet?


like 4


----------



## Go To 11

dhmusic said:


> Here a quick test. The legato seems to work better if you add it to the non legato patches instead of the scripted one.
> 
> The second test is staccatos, first with x-fade, then with switch. It's subtle but really noticeable. At least I think it is. Plus it all adds up from one instrument to the next.


I like the switch ones better, the second ones.


----------



## dhmusic

Go To 11 said:


> I like the switch ones better, the second ones.


omg like i kno rite


----------



## jadedsean

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Why would Teldex IR be in BWW given the instruments were already recorded in Teldex? The Soloists were recorded dry, hence the need for the Teldex IR.


Yeah I wasn’t aware the soloists weren’t recorded at the Teldex, I know BWW was recorded there but second guessed myself when I read your comment hence the question.


----------



## OleJoergensen

BB trumpet 2 legato test:

I had an old mock up with BB kontakt version. The dynamics are recorded with Breath controller (Im not a wind musician so a bit bumby) also after a Kontakt update, BB legato became a bit bumby.

For the SINE version I had to redo the slur and retoung by using velocities.

To justify Berlin Brass SINE version, I think we have to think of it it as a new Brass library….
I should have made a new recording(new midi data) for the SINE version but didnt, just a quick test.

This example is with 3 mic positions, no processing or reverb. I forgot to turn off Sonarwork but its only minor adjustments with Zennheiser HD 650

I still think the SINE version sound a bit “plastic”.



The melodi is from this mock up. When SINE comes with more updates, I will make this mock up with Berlin brass SINE version.


----------



## Eptesicus

Robin said:


> Trumpet 1 after update. First Kontakt Second Sine, Tree Mic, all Vel Layers enabled, Modwheel adjusted to reach similar results, triggering only slurred legato in both cases.
> 
> View attachment Tpt1_PostUpdate(2).mp3
> 
> (EDIT): And Trumpet 2, similar configuration:
> View attachment Tpt2_PostUpdate.mp3



Oh dear. So trumpet 1 is still very broken then?


----------



## Robin

Eptesicus said:


> Oh dear. So still broken then?


Up to you decide what "broken" means. Obvious tuning issues, the legato has improved over pre-update version but imo not to the quality of the Kontakt legato. At least not for Tpt1. Horns are pretty close now.


----------



## Eptesicus

Robin said:


> Up to you decide what "broken" means. Obvious tuning issues, the legato has improved over pre-update version but imo not to the quality of the Kontakt legato. At least not for Tpt1. Horns are pretty close now.


It sounds pretty bad to me. There is horrible intonation/tuning issues + a chorus like effect in the transitions.

The kontakt version sounds fine.


----------



## ummon

Robin said:


> Up to you decide what "broken" means. Obvious tuning issues, the legato has improved over pre-update version but imo not to the quality of the Kontakt legato. At least not for Tpt1. Horns are pretty close now.


What about that strange phasing throughout the SINE example. Is that a bad programming of dynamic layers? Trumpet 2 doesn't seem to have that problem.


----------



## Robin

ummon said:


> What about that strange phasing throughout the SINE example. Is that a bad programming of dynamic layers? Trumpet 2 doesn't seem to have that problem.


I think it doesn't phase but it's more of a chorus effect due to the tuning differences between the sustains and transitions.


----------



## Chungus

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Spic exposed is now called spic and the original spic is called spic serial


Well that's not confusing at all. /s Still, thanks for letting me know.


----------



## ummon

Robin said:


> I think it doesn't phase but it's more of a chorus effect due to the tuning differences between the sustains and transitions.


Thanks. That would be easy to fix in Kontakt but I have understood you can't do any sample level editing with SINE.


----------



## Simon Ravn

OleJoergensen said:


> BB trumpet 2 legato test:
> 
> I had an old mock up with BB kontakt version. The dynamics are recorded with Breath controller (Im not a wind musician so a bit bumby) also after a Kontakt update, BB legato became a bit bumby.
> 
> For the SINE version I had to redo the slur and retoung by using velocities.
> 
> To justify Berlin Brass SINE version, I think we have to think of it it as a new Brass library….
> I should have made a new recording(new midi data) for the SINE version but didnt, just a quick test.
> 
> This example is with 3 mic positions, no processing or reverb. I forgot to turn off Sonarwork but its only minor adjustments with Zennheiser HD 650
> 
> I still think the SINE version sound a bit “plastic”.
> 
> 
> 
> The melodi is from this mock up. When SINE comes with more updates, I will make this mock up with Berlin brass SINE version.



I would not use Berlin Brass' trumpets for these kind of lines. I think you need a more expressive, solo-oriented trumpet. I don't think the ones in BB are aimed at that. They don't even have vibrato. I think they work better for quicker lines, for chords, less exposed.

I would use EastWest trumpet or Cinebrass trumpet for this kind of work. Or perhaps Cinematic Studio (I don't know that one very well yet admittedly).

A little OT I know perhaps, but just saying that I think this test is "wrong" for BB trumpet(s).


----------



## OleJoergensen

Simon Ravn said:


> I would not use Berlin Brass' trumpets for these kind of lines. I think you need a more expressive, solo-oriented trumpet. I don't think the ones in BB are aimed at that. They don't even have vibrato. I think they work better for quicker lines, for chords, less exposed.
> 
> I would use EastWest trumpet or Cinebrass trumpet for this kind of work. Or perhaps Cinematic Studio (I don't know that one very well yet admittedly).
> 
> A little OT I know perhaps, but just saying that I think this test is "wrong" for BB trumpet(s).


Thank you I must try that. 
BB also has a romantic legato option, maybe thats better for solo….


----------



## Scalms

OleJoergensen said:


> Thank you I must try that.
> BB also has a romantic legato option, maybe thats better for solo….


also, see if you can add some AB mics or surround for SINE. They mixed the Tree mic too close now, so it's lost the Teldex luster a bit, exposing the transitions more perhaps


----------



## Chungus

Simon Ravn said:


> They don't even have vibrato.


Wut? Sure they do, vibrato can be turned on and off with CC3 in both Kontakt and SINE.


----------



## styledelk

The 'chorus effect' is something I hear in their other libraries, too. Especially Duplex Saxophones. I think it's something to do with how they're scripting legatos in general in Sine. It's less noticeable when it isn't exposed.


----------



## OrchestralTools

Hi all. 

We’re delighted with the response to yesterday’s Berlin Brass update. Another quick note on the legati in SINE. There is a feature in SINE which allows users to adjust the volume of legato transitions.

In the articulation settings, under legato, there’s a slider that controls the volume of the transitions. We have set the defaults to where we think the sweet spot is for each instrument, but we’re aware this may vary according to individual taste and that some of our users may prefer it a little louder or quieter. 

Anyways, that’s all from us, for now! 

Best wishes from the OT team.


----------



## Eptesicus

OrchestralTools said:


> Hi all.
> 
> We’re delighted with the response to yesterday’s Berlin Brass update. Another quick note on the legati in SINE. There is a feature in SINE which allows users to adjust the volume of legato transitions.
> 
> In the articulation settings, under legato, there’s a slider that controls the volume of the transitions. We have set the defaults to where we think the sweet spot is for each instrument, but we’re aware this may vary according to individual taste and that some of our users may prefer it a little louder or quieter.
> 
> Anyways, that’s all from us, for now!
> 
> Best wishes from the OT team.




Can you comment on this example here?






Orchestral Tools: Berlin Series on SINE now!


So have they fixed the issues with legato? https://vi-control.net/community/threads/orchestral-tools-berlin-series-on-sine-now.117239/post-4985314




vi-control.net





Does that not sound really bad to OT? That cannot be how it was intended to sound.


----------



## jbuhler

Eptesicus said:


> It sounds pretty bad to me. There is horrible intonation/tuning issues + a chorus like effect in the transitions.
> 
> The kontakt version sounds fine.


I don’t think the Kontakt version sounds awesome either. The problems aren’t as noticeable and you could get away with it in context, but Kontakt trumpet 1 isn’t as clean as Sine trumpet 2 on the passage, and I would definitely use either trumpet 2 over either trumpet 1 if the passage was exposed. But that too is one of the real virtues of the library: all the redundancy. And I don’t think anyone has tried the passage with other longs with legato swapped in. That’s another way the library has built-in redundancy.


----------



## Eptesicus

jbuhler said:


> I don’t think the Kontakt version sounds awesome either. The problems aren’t as noticeable and you could get away with it in context, but Kontakt trumpet 1 isn’t as clean as Sine trumpet 2 on the passage, and I would definitely use either trumpet 2 over either trumpet 1 if the passage was exposed. But that too is one of the real virtues of the library: all the redundancy. And I don’t think anyone has tried the passage with other longs with legato swapped in. That’s another way the library has built-in redundancy.



I'm sorry, but the SINE version in that example posted of trumpet 1 clearly has something wrong with it, and no one is going to tell me otherwise. . There are clear tuning/chorus like effect issues going on in the transitions.


----------



## Raphioli

OrchestralTools said:


> Hi all.
> 
> We’re delighted with the response to yesterday’s Berlin Brass update. Another quick note on the legati in SINE. There is a feature in SINE which allows users to adjust the volume of legato transitions.
> 
> In the articulation settings, under legato, there’s a slider that controls the volume of the transitions. We have set the defaults to where we think the sweet spot is for each instrument, but we’re aware this may vary according to individual taste and that some of our users may prefer it a little louder or quieter.
> 
> Anyways, that’s all from us, for now!
> 
> Best wishes from the OT team.


I think most people here are aware of that slider, but only being able to change the volume of the transition is limited. (and the settings for switching through the different transition samples)
I was afraid that @OrchestralTools might be thinking that a simple "volume knob" for legato transition customization would be enough for a user. (which is not enough. Multiple developers offer in-depth editing. Even the Kontakt version of the Berlin Series offer such edit-ability)

Kontakt's legato transitions are much more customizable.
The SINE player lacks such feature. So I really hope you add the edit-ability Kontakt has.


----------



## jbuhler

Eptesicus said:


> I'm sorry, but the SINE version in that example posted of trumpet 1 clearly has something wrong with it, and no one is going to tell me otherwise. . There are clear tuning/chorus like effect issues going on in the transitions.


I’m not arguing by with that. I said the Kontakt version of trumpet 1 isn’t great either and the trumpet 2 version of Kontakt and Sine are both better than the Kontakt version of trumpet 1. The Sine version of trumpet 1 is a lot worse than the Kontakt version.


----------



## Eptesicus

jbuhler said:


> I’m not arguing by with that. I said the Kontakt version of trumpet 1 isn’t great either and the trumpet 2 version of Kontakt and Sine are both better than the Kontakt version of trumpet 1. The Sine version of trumpet 1 is a lot worse than the Kontakt version.



Well, i think the Kontakt version sounds ok. We are getting into the realms of a more subjective comparison in terms of trumpet 2.

I'm simply focusing on the fact that Trumpet 1 is clearly broken and not working as intended.


----------



## Living Fossil

OrchestralTools said:


> Best wishes from the OT team.


Would you please also answer regarding the "Purge" bug??


----------



## Evans

Yes, I think a more refined Purge and legato transition volume, speed, and perhaps offset are all expected of a product this price these days.


----------



## AEF

Casiquire said:


> Not my experience at all. Keep in mind a lot of the legato examples here are using removed dynamic layers which affects the transitions. Side by side, i could barely tell a difference between vanilla Kontakt and SINE BWW
> 
> 
> I don't think they're intended to sound identical anyway. Played in unison, i think they sound great. Played as soloists, they sound great and independent and different from one another. I think that was the goal


please post us your video examples of this. 

“well i think” is meaningless. show us.


----------



## jbuhler

Eptesicus said:


> Well, i thin the Kontakt version sounds ok. We are getting into the realms of a more subjective comparison in terms of trumpet 2.
> 
> I'm simply focusing on the fact that Trumpet 1 is clearly broken and not working as intended.


The Kontakt version of trumpet 1 has some of the same issues as the Sine version just not nearly as pronounced. And yes it could be used in context in a way the Sine version never could. But exposed I would look for other solutions and trumpet 2 is much better on this passage. The difference between the Kontakt and Sine version of trumpet 2 on this passage is I think a matter of taste. 

The response by OT suggests that turning down the the volume of the legato transition might help bring the trumpet 1 rendition more in line with the Kontakt version. And I would also try connecting other longs with legato as well.


----------



## Iskra

Jett Hitt said:


> Oh my, this thing has a long way to go. Just tried to load up Trumpet 1. Switched to the triplet phrase, and it crashed Logic. It has happened twice in a row now.


Same here, triplets crashed SINE and Cubase 9.5. Every time. 
Anyone else having this problem?


----------



## G_Erland

I wonder…are the sets of articulations in sine related to the folder organization of the OT folder? Is it concievable that one could rearrange the sets by moving files around?


----------



## jbuhler

G_Erland said:


> I wonder…are the sets of articulations in sine related to the folder organization of the OT folder? Is it concievable that one could rearrange the sets by moving files around?


Not sure what you are asking but you can reorder the articulations within a group however you want in Sine. The issue with Berlin strings is the multiple groups that don’t entirely make sense. Whether you can move those in the Sine folder without breaking the instrument I’m doubtful about. 

If the number of articulations is too large to be contained in a single group I do wish that OT rearranged them so all the longs requiring control with CC1 were in the same group so they could all be on the same midi channel. That alone would simplify setting up articulation sets.


----------



## G_Erland

jbuhler said:


> Not sure what you are asking but you can reorder the articulations within a group however you want in Sine. The issue with Berlin strings is the multiple groups that don’t entirely make sense. Whether you can move those in the Sine folder without breaking the instrument I’m doubtful about.
> 
> If the number of articulations is too large to be contained in a single group I do wish that OT rearranged them so all the longs requiring control with CC1 were in the same group so they could all be on the same midi channel. That alone would simplify setting up articulation sets.


Yes that was what just had an idea about, if one could rearrange them to be able to make lists, and then polyamaps and so on…but i suspect it is somehow a stupid question


----------



## lucor

lucor said:


> Is anyone here who can tell me how much it costs to complete the full Berlin Bundle if you already own BWW Revive, Berlin Percussion and Berlin Strings? Still pondering if I should update to BWWR and get Berlin Brass.
> Thanks!


Anyone? 

EDIT: Nevermind, I just noticed that there is basically no difference between buying the full bundle (1329€) versus buying everything separately (1392€).  Again, that doesn't exactly make me feel very appreciated as an early supporter and buyer, but what the hell do I know.


----------



## axb312

OrchestralTools said:


> Hi all.
> 
> We’re delighted with the response to yesterday’s Berlin Brass update. Another quick note on the legati in SINE. There is a feature in SINE which allows users to adjust the volume of legato transitions.
> 
> In the articulation settings, under legato, there’s a slider that controls the volume of the transitions. We have set the defaults to where we think the sweet spot is for each instrument, but we’re aware this may vary according to individual taste and that some of our users may prefer it a little louder or quieter.
> 
> Anyways, that’s all from us, for now!
> 
> Best wishes from the OT team.


Release notes for the update?


----------



## Casiquire

I wish we weren't limited to those groups. Or at least that the groups are smart enough to recognize that if i hit a keyswitch in another group, the one that's playing should fall silent. Is there a way to do that?

Also are all polymaps temporary? Is there no way for it to save the settings after i hit another keyswitch?


----------



## muk

Casiquire said:


> Or at least that the groups are smart enough to recognize that if i hit a keyswitch in another group, the one that's playing should fall silent. Is there a way to do that?


Nope.



Casiquire said:


> Also are all polymaps temporary?


Yes.



Casiquire said:


> Is there no way for it to save the settings after i hit another keyswitch?


Nope.

It would be appreciated if a functionality to lock polymaps would be implemented in Sine, as well as the possibility to use more than one polymap on one midichannel. It would allow much more flexible setups.


----------



## dhmusic

Casiquire said:


> I wish we weren't limited to those groups. Or at least that the groups are smart enough to recognize that if i hit a keyswitch in another group, the one that's playing should fall silent. Is there a way to do that?
> 
> Also are all polymaps temporary? Is there no way for it to save the settings after i hit another keyswitch?


Those reaaaally need an overhaul.


----------



## muziksculp

muk said:


> as well as the possibility to use more than one polymap on one midichannel.


That would be very nice indeed. I guess switching between multiple Polymaps would be accomplished via Key-Switches ? or CC# values ?


----------



## Jose7822

Yeah, I’m also having some issues figuring out this grouping thing in BS. Hopefully I’m just missing something, but I’m not able to have groups in the same MIDI channel without them playing the articulations at the same time. Even when I set the keyswitches to different notes, articulations of different groups play simultaneously.

AFAIK Studio One’s sound variations don’t allow me to assign them to different MIDI channels like Cubase‘s Expression Maps do, so I may have to figure something out that doesn’t involve having a separate instance of SINE just for short articulations. I like keeping things to one track per instrument.

Does anyone have a suggestions, besides trying to move samples to the same folder? How are people tackling this?


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> I wish we weren't limited to those groups. Or at least that the groups are smart enough to recognize that if i hit a keyswitch in another group, the one that's playing should fall silent. Is there a way to do that?


I'm unclear on what you mean by groups. Can you explain what you are referring to.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> I'm unclear on what you mean by groups. Can you explain what you are referring to.


"Long" versus "dynamics" versus "ornaments" etc


----------



## Jose7822

muziksculp said:


> I'm unclear on what you mean by groups. Can you explain what you are referring to.


In SINE, Berlin String articulations are organized in groups. One for long and short notes, one for ornaments, and there are two others. The problem is that those groups are considered as separate instruments, which makes it impossible to create Polymaps with. Only articulations belonging to the same group can be combined in a Polymap. It’s a bit limiting.


----------



## dhmusic

Jose7822 said:


> In SINE, Berlin String articulations are organized in groups. One for long and short notes, one for ornaments, and there are two others. The problem is that those groups are considered as separate instruments, which makes it impossible to create Polymaps with. Only articulations belonging to the same group can be combined in a Polymap. It’s a bit limiting.


If you really want to you can work around it with a dummy polymap. Lame but it sorta works


----------



## muziksculp

Jose7822 said:


> In SINE, Berlin String articulations are organized in groups. One for long and short notes, one for ornaments, and there are two others. The problem is that those groups are considered as separate instruments, which makes it impossible to create Polymaps with. Only articulations belonging to the same group can be combined in a Polymap. It’s a bit limiting.


THANKS  

Very clear now.


----------



## muziksculp

dhmusic said:


> If you really want to you can work around it with a dummy polymap. Lame but it sorta works


Can you demonstrate that ? I don't know what you mean by dummy polymap


----------



## Jose7822

He means creating a Polymap of one group, say the longs and shorts group, where one of the articulations is silenced (and thus becoming a dummy). Then you do the same on another group. However, that would only work if the Polymap is set to Switch, as opposed to Crossfade. At least in theory, but I don’t know if he has successfully tried this.


----------



## muk

muziksculp said:


> That would be very nice indeed. I guess switching between multiple Polymaps would be accomplished via Key-Switches ? or CC# values ?


Yes. The simplest method would be if you could select a polymap with one keyswitch. Currently you have to press two, three, or even more keyswitches in the right order. Not a very practical design choice. I guess it shows again that the people at Orchestral Tools work with one articulation per channel. 



Jose7822 said:


> Even when I set the keyswitches to different notes, articulations of different groups play simultaneously. AFAIK Studio One’s sound variations don’t allow me to assign them to different MIDI channels like Cubase‘s Expression Maps do, so I may have to figure something out that doesn’t involve having a separate instance of SINE just for short articulations. I like keeping things to one track per instrument.
> 
> Does anyone using have a suggestion for this (besides trying to move samples to the same folder)? How are people tackling this?


No suggestions unfortunately. I'd like to use SINE that way too, but gave up building a template with it because of that limitation. Currently, SINE is not really practical if you use one track per instrument. You can only use one polymap, and if you press a wrong keyswitch, your polymap is gone.

In Kontakt you could sidestep the problem by using 'empty' keyswitches. In SINE that is not possible. So it is not possible to silence a group with a keyswitch. It will always play the last selected articulation.


----------



## dhmusic

Jose7822 said:


> He means creating a Polymap of one group, say the longs and shorts group, where one of the articulations is silenced (and thus becoming a dummy). Then you do the same on another group. However, that would only work if the Polymap is set to Switch, as opposed to Crossfade. At least in theory, but I don’t know if he has successfully tried this.


It works with crossfades too. You have to assign them both to the same MIDI channel


----------



## Jose7822

muk said:


> Yes. The simplest method would be if you could select a polymap with one keyswitch. Currently you have to press two, three, or even more keyswitches in the right order. Not a very practical design choice. I guess it shows again that the people at Orchestral Tools work with one articulation per channel.
> 
> 
> No suggestions unfortunately. I'd like to use SINE that way too, but gave up building a template with it because of that limitation. Currently, SINE is not really practical if you use one track per instrument. You can only use one polymap, and if you press a wrong keyswitch, your polymap is gone.
> 
> In Kontakt you could sidestep the problem by using 'empty' keyswitches. In SINE that is not possible. So it is not possible to silence a group with a keyswitch. It will always play the last selected articulation.


Ah, that‘s a shame. Then this is the only real problem I have with SINE. Hopefully OT can address this sooner than later because that really ruins my workflow. The Polymap limitation is not too bad for me, though I still would be happy to have that improved as well.

Thanks for your reply.


----------



## Jose7822

dhmusic said:


> It works with crossfades too. You have to assign them both to the same MIDI channel


Oh nice! That’s good to know.

That would mitigate the issue with Polymaps and groups. Unfortunately, my issue with groups doesn’t seem to have a practical solution 😢.


----------



## dhmusic

Jose7822 said:


> Oh nice! That’s good to know.
> 
> That would mitigate the issue with Polymaps and groups. Unfortunately, my issue with groups doesn’t seem to have a practical solution 😢.


There are quite a few labor ruining problems like if you change from keyswitch to CC to Prgm at all it collapses everything from a single group into the same midi channel, resetting any edits you made. This happened to an instance I was working on that had around 400 articulations


----------



## Jose7822

dhmusic said:


> There are quite a few labor ruining problems like if you change from keyswitch to CC to Prgm at all it collapses everything from a single group into the same midi channel, resetting any edits you made. This happened to an instance I was working on that had around 400 articulations


Yikes!!

That really sucks. Nevermind what I said. That is definitely something that needs addressing ASAP! OT should make Polymaps that can be saved as their own articulation or something like that, so people don’t lose that time invested making them. That’s not good at all.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

jbuhler said:


> I’m not arguing by with that. I said the Kontakt version of trumpet 1 isn’t great either and the trumpet 2 version of Kontakt and Sine are both better than the Kontakt version of trumpet 1. The Sine version of trumpet 1 is a lot worse than the Kontakt version.



which brings me to this question: why is BB regarded as such a high standard brass library and a go-to library among VI-C members and online reviewers alike?

I did not have time to check it out enough yet. After skipping through articulations I was a bit underwhelmed with many, regarding the hype BB enjoys. But to be fair: I did not spend a lot of time with the library just yet. I do agree on the notion, that Sine buyers should also have access to the Kontakt versions.

It's been a confusing port and Sine has still so much room to improve.. Atm I see myself reaching for Kontakt instruments mostly, to save time and another possible headache.


----------



## jbuhler

muk said:


> Yes. The simplest method would be if you could select a polymap with one keyswitch. Currently you have to press two, three, or even more keyswitches in the right order. Not a very practical design choice. I guess it shows again that the people at Orchestral Tools work with one articulation per channel.
> 
> 
> No suggestions unfortunately. I'd like to use SINE that way too, but gave up building a template with it because of that limitation. Currently, SINE is not really practical if you use one track per instrument. You can only use one polymap, and if you press a wrong keyswitch, your polymap is gone.
> 
> In Kontakt you could sidestep the problem by using 'empty' keyswitches. In SINE that is not possible. So it is not possible to silence a group with a keyswitch. It will always play the last selected articulation.


I'm not sure what you are trying to do with Polymap, but if you ignore Polymap completely, you can load all the groups into one instance, with the groups assigned to different channels. And that instance can be on one track, and that track can trigger any of the desired articulations. But you need to be able to propagate CC1 and CC11 across all midi channels. Articulation sets in Logic can be set to send keyswitches to the various midi channels, but that won't set CC1 and 11 to all channels as would need to happen for it to work properly. (Because CC3 is a state, you can send that one with the articulation set.) I can write a script for Logic that does this but it's another step. Still that only handles the programming side. It's not a very playable library in that state. (This was true of the Kontakt version as well.) I'm also thinking about whether it would be feasible to load these instruments into Unify to handle this better. I can at least use Unify to morph ord and trem...

One thing that would make much of this easier is getting rid of the groups. Or if Sine can't handle that many articulations in one group, keeping all the longs including the ornamental and dynamic longs together in the same group, and putting the shorts in a separate group. The way OT set this up doesn't make much sense for programming, and it makes it impossible to use the polymap to morph from ord to trem, for instance.


----------



## lettucehat

So OT are clearly keeping an eye on the thread for people's concerns but passing over the matter of the upgrade fee, legatos outside of brass as well, purge, etc. It's cool that updates are coming out already but with all of the other more technical messes I can't imagine being comfortable buying into the Sine version directly. I can see it happening if someone is unaware of all of the issues and doesn't see >$1k as an amount worth researching thoroughly over. But I can't shake the feeling that the necessary updates (read: necessary for placing Sine at the heart of one's critical working template) are so far off that the Kontakt to Sine upgrade fees aren't even relevant at the moment.


----------



## jbuhler

Jose7822 said:


> That really sucks. Nevermind what I said. That is definitely something that needs addressing ASAP! OT should make Polymaps that can be saved as their own articulation or something like that, so people don’t lose that time invested making them. That’s not good at all.


You can save Polymaps—they save when you save a set-up. But you can't lock the polymap, and there are so many ways to break them. You can restore from a save, but that means opening the gui, going to the save icon, navigating to where you saved them (if you didn't save in the default location, which I don't think you can reset), and reloading the set. It's a PITA.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

lettucehat said:


> So OT are clearly keeping an eye on the thread for people's concerns but passing over the matter of the upgrade fee, legatos outside of brass as well, purge, etc. It's cool that updates are coming out already but with all of the other more technical messes I can't imagine being comfortable buying into the Sine version directly. I can see it happening if someone is unaware of all of the issues and doesn't see >$1k as an amount worth researching thoroughly over. But I can't shake the feeling that the necessary updates (read: necessary for placing Sine at the heart of one's critical working template) are so far off that the Kontakt to Sine upgrade fees aren't even relevant at the moment.


Exactly this


----------



## jbuhler

lettucehat said:


> So OT are clearly keeping an eye on the thread for people's concerns but passing over the matter of the upgrade fee, legatos outside of brass as well, purge, etc. It's cool that updates are coming out already but with all of the other more technical messes I can't imagine being comfortable buying into the Sine version directly. I can see it happening if someone is unaware of all of the issues and doesn't see >$1k as an amount worth researching thoroughly over. But I can't shake the feeling that the necessary updates (read: necessary for placing Sine at the heart of one's critical working template) are so far off that the Kontakt to Sine upgrade fees aren't even relevant at the moment.


I only have the strings, and the issues with the Kontakt version are also not good from a workflow standpoint. Indeed, in terms of workflow, I prefer the problems I have to deal with on Sine to the problems I had to deal with on Kontakt. I have certain complaints about Sine, and it will likely force me to use multiple tracks for each string part, but the Kontakt version is similar, and while I could get everything onto one track, it wasn't pretty, and I usually ended up using the Babylon Waves sets, which required two tracks, and then some of the individual legato patches as well, because they are different from the legato patches that loaded inside the Capsule multiarticulation setting.


----------



## BlueJay0815

lettucehat said:


> None of this mentions the woodwind legatos specifically (although it could fall under the "other" stuff they referred to) so I'm curious if there's an update for woodwinds? Either way there is apparently just a bunch of content no longer in the Sine version of BWW so I'm not sure how much it matters.





Raphioli said:


> Thanks for your review. I'll just hold off on downloading the SINE version for and continue using the Kontakt version.
> 
> BTW, for people who do not own part of/whole Berlin Series, be careful which format you choose to purchase it in.
> I think while you can upgrade your Kontakt version to SINE version, but you can't do the opposite afaik.


I am interested in BWW and have seen a lot of videos and listened to numerous examples here in the forum, but can't decide. Can the new SINE version already keep up in terms of sound? What would be your arguments for or against the two versions of BWW?


----------



## lettucehat

jbuhler said:


> I only have the strings, and the issues with the Kontakt version are also not good from a workflow standpoint. Indeed, in terms of workflow, I prefer the problems I have to deal with on Sine to the problems I had to deal with on Kontakt. I have certain complaints about Sine, and it will likely force me to use multiple tracks for each string part, but the Kontakt version is similar, and while I could get everything onto one track, it wasn't pretty, and I usually ended up using the Babylon Waves sets, which required two tracks, and then some of the individual legato patches as well, because they are different from the legato patches that loaded inside the Capsule multiarticulation setting.


Strings seem the least bad for sure, but with the other two sounding the way they do, and these track/articulation concerns being pretty low on my list anyway, Sine strings still seem like a lateral move at best and I might as well just keep everything in Kontakt. I am tempted to get them in Sine, but it's hard to argue against the format that people have been using for years.


----------



## lettucehat

BlueJay0815 said:


> I am interested in BWW and have seen a lot of videos and listened to numerous examples here in the forum, but can't decide. Can the new SINE version already keep up in terms of sound? What would be your arguments for or against the two versions of BWW?


Early on in this long playthrough you can hear there are issues:



I also think a bunch of content was totally dropped in the move to Sine. With the inability to get both formats at once, Sine would need to be confirmed as absolutely superior to be worth the leap in my opinion.


----------



## Raphioli

BlueJay0815 said:


> I am interested in BWW and have seen a lot of videos and listened to numerous examples here in the forum, but can't decide. Can the new SINE version already keep up in terms of sound? What would be your arguments for or against the two versions of BWW?


First of all, I haven't downloaded the SINE versions yet, like I've said in the post of mine you quoted.
(although im debating to just download BB for the ff layers)
Main issue is the edit-ability of the legatos via Pixelpoet trick.
You can learn about this trick just by searching the forum.

And regarding BWW specifically, afaik, the SINE version does not come with the legacy version. (correct me if im wrong plz)
Some people like the legacy version more than Revive.(vise versa)
So for BWW, I'd personally definitely keep the Kontakt version even if the legatos improve in the SINE version.


----------



## jbuhler

lettucehat said:


> Strings seem the least bad for sure, but with the other two sounding the way they do, and these track/articulation concerns being pretty low on my list anyway, Sine strings still seem like a lateral move at best and I might as well just keep everything in Kontakt. I am tempted to get them in Sine, but it's hard to argue against the format that people have been using for years.


From the looks of the other Mains, I think they will translate to Sine much better, and will yield a much improved workflow compared to Capsule, which is restricted to 12 slots per midi channel. The strings are a special case because the number of articulations is so large. 

I'm not taking into consideration here anything about the quality of sound out of Kontakt or Sine. This is just about workflow because I always found the workflow for BS to be a PITA on Kontakt. So far I'm finding Sine to be somewhat better, but I'm still encountering a lot of frictions that I just don't encounter in my other string libraries, whether on Kontakt or in Sine or in other players.

In terms of sound, I'll say that I prefer the Sine versions of the strings in most respects. It's not a great difference, though, and certain details are better in the Kontakt version. I still have to run some stress tests to do side by side comparisons of the two versions.


----------



## tim727

Fever Phoenix said:


> which brings me to this question: why is BB regarded as such a high standard brass library and a go-to library among VI-C members and online reviewers alike?
> 
> I did not have time to check it out enough yet. After skipping through articulations I was a bit underwhelmed with many, regarding the hype BB enjoys. But to be fair: I did not spend a lot of time with the library just yet. I do agree on the notion, that Sine buyers should also have access to the Kontakt versions.
> 
> It's been a confusing port and Sine has still so much room to improve.. Atm I see myself reaching for Kontakt instruments mostly, to save time and another possible headache.


Are you saying you were underwhelmed by the Kontakt version or the SINE one?


----------



## lettucehat

jbuhler said:


> From the looks of the other Mains, I think they will translate to Sine much better, and will yield a much improved workflow compared to Capsule,


Yeah maybe, which just makes it unfortunate for everyone that those two were released in worse shape.

My personal goal in having something like BS is not to force it into a tight couple of tracks with a perfect articulation setup, since I already have my go-to setup for that. The attraction is the wealth of articulation choices that I may want to layer to death anyway, so I don't have an issue with having many many tracks of BS.


----------



## jbuhler

lettucehat said:


> Yeah maybe, which just makes it unfortunate for everyone that those two were released in worse shape.


If the legacy library still comes with the Kontakt version, it would definitely make sense to buy the Kontakt version and pay the Sine upgrade fee, taking that as the cost of the legacy instruments. Is that true, that the Kontakt version still ships with legacy?



lettucehat said:


> My personal goal in having something like BS is not to force it into a tight couple of tracks with a perfect articulation setup, since I already have my go-to setup for that. The attraction is the wealth of articulation choices that I may want to layer to death anyway, so I don't have an issue with having many many tracks of BS.


Which is fine if you want to use BS as a supplement. But if you want to use BS as a main string library then you will have to figure out how to lay it out in a way that it can serve that function.


----------



## Eptesicus

lettucehat said:


> So OT are clearly keeping an eye on the thread for people's concerns but passing over the matter of the upgrade fee, legatos outside of brass as well, purge, etc. It's cool that updates are coming out already but with all of the other more technical messes I can't imagine being comfortable buying into the Sine version directly. I can see it happening if someone is unaware of all of the issues and doesn't see >$1k as an amount worth researching thoroughly over. But I can't shake the feeling that the necessary updates (read: necessary for placing Sine at the heart of one's critical working template) are so far off that the Kontakt to Sine upgrade fees aren't even relevant at the moment.



Yep, have decided to vote with my wallet and not pick it up in this sale. Will wait for the next one when (hopefully) everything will have been fixed.

Not going to risk buying a broken library with just promises of fixes again.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I came to the OT universe because of StaffPad, buying BWW and BS in Kontakt. I was instantly put off by the complexity of working with Capsule, and then I picked up BSS. I truly loved working with BSS in Sine, and I had high hopes for BS in Sine. But as I gaze upon this maze of articulations, I don't know how this ever works. I sure don't know how it works for a professional who is working with deadlines.

These are premium-priced libraries targeted, presumably, at professionals. Who has time for this? And then consider that Sine has crashed Logic more times in the last 24 hours than Logic has crashed in the last year. Logic almost never crashes. Now, I cringe every time I click on something new.

The release of these libraries was incredibly premature. No professional can use these in his/her daily workflow in their current state. Every person who bought these should have access to the Kontakt version, and I say that despite hating Capsule.


----------



## Eptesicus

Jett Hitt said:


> I came to the OT universe because of StaffPad, buying BWW and BS in Kontakt. I was instantly put off by the complexity of working with Capsule, and then I picked up BSS. I truly loved working with BSS in Sine, and I had high hopes for BS in Sine. But as I gaze upon this maze of articulations, I don't know how this ever works. I sure don't know how it works for a professional who is working with deadlines.
> 
> These are premium-priced libraries targeted, presumably, at professionals. Who has time for this? And then consider that Sine has crashed Logic more times in the last 24 hours than Logic has crashed in the last year. Logic almost never crashes. Now, I cringe every time I click on something new.
> 
> The release of these libraries was incredibly premature. No professional can use these in his/her daily workflow in their current state. Every person who bought these should have access to the Kontakt version, and I say that despite hating Capsule.



I have found it to be incredibly crash prone as well unfortunately.


----------



## lettucehat

jbuhler said:


> If the legacy library still comes with the Kontakt version, it would definitely make sense to buy the Kontakt version and pay the Sine upgrade fee, taking that as the cost of the legacy instruments. Is that true, that the Kontakt version still ships with legacy?


I don't know for sure, they don't really list the Kontakt contents anymore (despite letting you buy either as if they are identical) or have a comparison page.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

tim727 said:


> Are you saying you were underwhelmed by the Kontakt version or the SINE one?


Sine, I don't have the Kontakt version


----------



## tim727

Fever Phoenix said:


> Sine, I don't have the Kontakt version


Ok that's what I would figured. So in that case to answer your question from your prior post about why BB is so highly regarded here, it's due to the fact that the Kontakt version is leaps and bounds better than the SINE version. If you take a listen to the official OT walkthroughs for the Kontakt version you'll see what I mean. It sounds wonderful.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

For Brass, while I did go for the SINE version, I would recommend people go for the Kontakt one unless they absolutely need the new FF layer (which I don't think is Berlin Brass's strength in any case). I am very disappointed that OT is monitoring this thread but refuses to address the ability for SINE owners to download the Kontakt version if desired - EVEN FOR A FEE. I just don't understand why they are ignoring that question - when it only helps customers who have already purchased something with them and doesn't hurt OT at all.

I put my faith in betting on the SINE version, but I wish I had waited for more feedback and bought the Kontakt one instead. OT is rewarding people who don't believe in SINE (by offering an upgrade path) more than they are rewarding people that are investing in the future of SINE. It is really mind boggling.


----------



## tim727

ALittleNightMusic said:


> For Brass, while I did go for the SINE version, I would recommend people go for the Kontakt one unless they absolutely need the new FF layer (which I don't think is Berlin Brass's strength in any case). I am very disappointed that OT is monitoring this thread but refuses to address the ability for SINE owners to download the Kontakt version if desired - EVEN FOR A FEE. I just don't understand why they are ignoring that question - when it only helps customers who have already purchased something with them and doesn't hurt OT at all.
> 
> I put my faith in betting on the SINE version, but I wish I had waited for more feedback and bought the Kontakt one instead. OT is rewarding people who don't believe in SINE (by offering an upgrade path) more than they are rewarding people that are investing in the future of SINE. It is really mind boggling.


I will almost certainly be following this advice in a few hours. I posted a poll earlier in sample talk asking users if they prefer BB in Kontakt, SINE, or no preference. So far 9 have said Kontakt, 3 have said no preference, and literally 0 have said SINE. I'd say that's pretty damning. Between that, a very kind, detailed, and thoughtful private message on the matter that a forum user just sent me, and all the audio examples I've heard with my own ears, I'm finding it hard to find the faith to move forward with SINE BB, which is unfortunate because I was waiting for it for ages. It was nice to see OT release an update so fast, but the lack of transparency is NOT nice. After all, to my ears anyway, trumpet 1 at the very least (still) sounds absolutely abysmal. I find it hard to believe that OT themselves can listen to that instrument and be proud of it. So to me, even though the quick update was nice, the fact that they haven't come out and acknowledged how bad certain things still sound just really doesn't give me any confidence.

Edit: Just bought BB on Kontakt.


----------



## Fever Phoenix

tim727 said:


> Ok that's what I would figured. So in that case to answer your question from your prior post about why BB is so highly regarded here, it's due to the fact that the Kontakt version is leaps and bounds better than the SINE version. If the Kontakt version sounded and played like the SINE version BB never would have been highly regarded at all IMO. If you take a listen to the official OT walkthroughs for the Kontakt version you'll see what I mean. It sounds wonderful.



I get it. I just doesn't make sense that the "upgrade" to Sine worsens the content..

🤷‍♂️


----------



## tim727

Fever Phoenix said:


> I get it. I just doesn't make sense that the "upgrade" to Sine worsens the content..
> 
> 🤷‍♂️


Oh trust me I am 100% in agreement with you on that! To me OT represents a strange dichotomy. At once they are capable of brilliance in the sound department ... but also capable of pretty poor quality control and customer relations (IMO). They're still my favorite developer, but I really wish someone gave them a bit of a lesson in the right ways to build customer trust. That said I'm such a slave to them that even as I'm saying that I just parted with 400 euros for BB on Kontakt. I have a problem ...


----------



## Fever Phoenix

tim727 said:


> Oh trust me I am 100% in agreement with you on that! To me OT represents a strange dichotomy. At once they are capable of brilliance in the sound department ... but also capable of pretty abysmal quality control and customer relations. They're still my favorite developer, but I really wish someone gave them a bit of a lesson in the right ways to build customer trust. That said I'm such a slave to them that even as I'm saying that I just parted with 400 euros for BB on Kontakt. I have a problem ...



oh, so consider me th SF version of that coin then 

I wanted to get the bundle, really.. but that whole situation is unsettling, pair that with some bad experiences in the past, regarding issues with TM patches in time macro with capsule and that whole first sine year.. 

I want to love OT products, but I will stay hesitant 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Casiquire

tim727 said:


> I will almost certainly be following this advice in a few hours. I posted a poll earlier in sample talk asking users if they prefer BB in Kontakt, SINE, or no preference. So far 9 have said Kontakt, 3 have said no preference, and literally 0 have said SINE. I'd say that's pretty damning. Between that, a very kind, detailed, and thoughtful private message on the matter that a forum user just sent me, and all the audio examples I've heard with my own ears, I'm finding it hard to find the faith to move forward with SINE BB, which is unfortunate because I was waiting for it for ages. It was nice to see OT release an update so fast, but the lack of transparency is NOT nice. After all, to my ears anyway, trumpet 1 at the very least (still) sounds absolutely abysmal. I find it hard to believe that OT themselves can listen to that instrument and be proud of it. So to me, even though the quick update was nice, the fact that they haven't come out and acknowledged how bad certain things still sound just really doesn't give me any confidence.
> 
> Edit: Just bought BB on Kontakt.


Bear in mind, polls don't always mean what you think they mean. The Berlin series has been out for years now and I'd imagine most users here have never even tried SINE. They're going to vote Kontakt because it's all they know. The people who have both have been using SINE for less than two weeks compared to however many years they've been customizing their kontakt versions. The people who only have SINE have barely used it and probably feel it's too soon to vote, like me. I voted "no preference" just because it's way too soon for me to be able to give an honest opinion


----------



## tim727

Casiquire said:


> Bear in mind, polls don't always mean what you think they mean. The Berlin series has been out for years now and I'd imagine most users here have never even tried SINE. They're going to vote Kontakt because it's all they know. The people who have both have been using SINE for less than two weeks compared to however many years they've been customizing their kontakt versions. The people who only have SINE have barely used it and probably feel it's too soon to vote, like me. I voted "no preference" just because it's way too soon for me to be able to give an honest opinion


I'm not sure if I agree. Or let me put it this way, I can totally see a fair number of people, such as yourself, voting for the undecided option, and with good reason. But somehow I don't see a lot of people voting for Kontakt without having closely considered SINE simply because Kontakt is "all they know". Most people around here have been eagerly awaiting the SINE ports and I imagine if someone voted for Kontakt it's because they justifiably feel it all around presents a more compelling package.

That said I know that a poll such as the one I posted is not perfect, and to be clear it was far from the only factor in my decision making process. The biggest deciding factor was my own ears, which are telling me resoundingly that the Kontakt version sounds far superior (not just the legatos, but even the general tone).


----------



## bfreepro

I’ve been eyeing this thread for some time and wanted to hold off on any comments, but I’ve gotta say I’ve now completely deleted the SINE versions of BWW and Berlin Strings from my hard drive and I’m back to using the kontakt versions.

I was genuinely thrilled when I found out they were going to release these libraries on SINE. I actually am a huge fan of the SINE player, minus a few little quirks (_anyone else not able to resize the GUI? It used to be fine but now it’s huge and I can’t even reach the bottom corner to resize, and can’t see some of the controls like enabling and disabling dynamic layers, RRs, etc._)

I think the ability to purchase and download individual instruments and only the mic positions you need is a major game changer, especially for saving precious hard drive space. I’m saying all this because I do really appreciate the player, and I have a ton of respect for OT as a company for their sampling approach and delivering this player with so many useful features from the get-go and continuing to update it.

That being said, even on a good day I find their libraries to be quite overpriced. So I think this is worth mentioning from a consumer standpoint: the SINE versions of BWW and Berlin Strings are nowhere near the quality of the original kontakt libraries, with legato patches being the biggest offenders. Overall the sound has changed, too. I noticed the lack of room ambience immediately even with the exact same mic loaded up, which isn’t a bad thing, actually I’d prefer it… if only the legato patches sounded the same!

Legato transitions between notes now have a tendency to sound just like a sustained patch with simulated legato or something, they transition very sloppily, meaning you get a smeared transition while two notes play at once, even if just for a moment. They don’t slur together naturally anymore. I did a test with some quick runs for both woodwinds and strings, (flute 1 and vins 1 to be precise) and the kontakt versions sounded realistic and detailed, just like they always do. There’s a really nice blend and obviously advanced scripting going on, with quick, rapid transitions, slurred/blurred transitions, and the notes also have a very sharp, accented attack on the highest velocity layer.

The sine version just sounds inferior. It sounds fake and midi-fied, especially on runs. The slurring between notes is also completely missing sometimes when you play slow, or if you play too fast, the notes will not release fast enough and you get what sounds like a smeared sustain or shorts patch instead of an actual instrument playing a bunch of notes quickly. I’ll post examples shortly. Basically I’m satisfied with the sound and tone but the scripting seems to be highly inferior and sounds like a shoddy scripted legato has replaced the wonderful variety of transitions we got in the kontakt versions.

The percussion package is amazing, and the fact they give you the timpani is also very much appreciated. Again, I don’t want to bash too much, but I am quite disappointed with the scripting of the SINE editions of BWW and Berlin Strings. I also noticed things like the full string spiccato patch sounding like the notes were sometimes “tightened” artificially and they lack the initial attack that the kontakt version had. Granted, the shorts in Berlin strings were always VERY prone to the “machine gun effect”, more so than any of my other string libraries, but it still sounds different.

There are obviously pros to the SINE versions, so to be fair, I’m highly impressed with the quality of percussion so far, and the fact I could potentially have the entire Berlin Series (minus the brass, I do not own the brass) take up significantly less hard drive space. After playing and comparing for at least four days now, it’s very clear to me that legato scripting (or lack thereof) is where the majority of user complaints have been, for good reason... it simply sounds vastly inferior at this time.

TL:DR Its not just the brass. The legato in general sounds like a completely different library. Ive noticed legato in general in SINE has never REALLY impressed me, being good in some areas (Jxl 6 horns and 3 trumpets, some of the modus instruments) and just passable on others.

I’m keeping the kontakt versions for now, there’s absolutely no doubt about it. I’ll use the SINE percussion, but even the BWW soloists library took out the Teldex IR/convolution reverb which made the kontakt versions such a joy to listen to and easily place in a mix. That’s much more minor, but it just kind of makes me place doubts on any SINE conversions in the future. They’re simply not complete… yet. I actually welcome the sounds being a bit more dry and less reverberant, but still… that also shows something is going on and these are not identical sounding even on the best of days. I have hope they will continue to work on these.


----------



## tim727

bfreepro said:


> Overall the sound has changed, too. I noticed the lack of room ambience immediately even with the exact same mic loaded up, which isn’t a bad thing, actually I’d prefer it… if only the legato patches sounded the same!


This statement intrigued me. Some people have been saying that they find that you can't feel Teldex as much in the sound of the SINE version. Is this more or less what you're saying as well? Also, I'm curious as to why you would prefer that?


----------



## bfreepro

tim727 said:


> This statement intrigued me. Some people have been saying that they find that you can't feel Teldex as much in the sound of the SINE version. Is this more or less what you're saying as well? Also, I'm curious as to why you would prefer that?


absolutely. Well, the thing is, I absolutely love it for the woods, but for the strings, they were just too wet sometimes. I remember buying the strings bc I felt the Spitfire AIR sound was too wet, but I found Berlin strings weren't that much better, actually I found them more or less just as wet honestly. Also, worth noting, this reverberation was most prominent during... you guessed it, legato transitions, especially slurs. It would ring out across the stereo field and sometimes be louder than the actual notes being played. So it’s worth noting because maybe they actually toned down the slurs and resonant note releases to try to address this, but now they’re just non existent. Obviously both versions had some quirks that annoyed me (which definitely contributes to my thought that they’re overpriced), but the legato in the kontakt version is just so, so, so much better, I’d take the rogue resonant frequencies any day. The notes also resonated for quite a long time after you released them. Just things I noticed and it was never a huge deal breaker, but very noticeable for me.
In a perfect world I’d have just a TINY bit less of the teldex sound, so that you can add your own hall verb and glue everything together. I guess the biggest point is that even if they tried to improve the sound and lessen the resonance somehow, it’s still not the Berlin strings we all remember. I think if we get Berlin strings on SINE it should be identical, and if we want improvements, I’d just invest in a new library then or wait til they improve the SINE scripting, but releasing it now feels very half baked.


----------



## tim727

bfreepro said:


> absolutely. Well, the thing is, I absolutely love it for the woods, but for the strings, they were just too wet sometimes. I remember buying the strings bc I felt the Spitfire AIR sound was too wet, but I found Berlin strings weren't that much better, actually I found them more or less just as wet honestly. Also, worth noting, this reverberation was most prominent during... you guessed it, legato transitions, especially slurs. It would ring out across the stereo field and sometimes be louder than the actual notes being played. So it’s worth noting because maybe they actually toned down the slurs and resonant note releases to try to address this, but now they’re just non existent. Obviously both versions had some quirks that annoyed me (which definitely contributes to my thought that they’re overpriced), but the legato in the kontakt version is just so, so, so much better, I’d take the rogue resonant frequencies any day. The notes also resonated for quite a long time after you released them. Just things I noticed and it was never a huge deal breaker, but very noticeable for me.
> In a perfect world I’d have just a TINY bit less of the teldex sound, so that you can add your own hall verb and glue everything together. I guess the biggest point is that even if they tried to improve the sound and lessen the resonance somehow, it’s still not the Berlin strings we all remember. I think if we get Berlin strings on SINE it should be identical, and if we want improvements, I’d just invest in a new library then or wait til they improve the SINE scripting, but releasing it now feels very half baked.


Ok that definitely clarifies your prior point. Thank you. I'm curious if you have tried increasing the volume of the legato transitions in SINE? Perhaps that might make them sound better?

I'm also very much looking forward to your side by side comparisons. I've been deliberating on which version of BS to get for the last few days. I had been leaning SINE but this is definitely giving me pause.


----------



## bfreepro

So it seems the SINE Strings also added portamento to the lowest (correction: the HIGHEST velocity layer when transitioning between notes) legato dynamic for transitions and removed the high velocity accented bow attack. I don't see options to adjust the attack, I donno. It's just... not the same library. At all.

You can hear the differences here with the exact same mic setups. I pause a few times so you can really hear the ambience in the string shorts, and also you can clearly hear the "tightened" notes, some of which sound like the attack has been cut off. It just doesn't sound as natural and clear as before. I mentioned some of the patches seem to have less ambience, but the violin legato actually now seems like it has... more? For the same mic position? I donno. I'm just perplexed by this lol. These are just observations, not trying to tear it apart, it's just so very obviously not the same. Some users might like it more, some might like it less. I don't like it. I especially don't like it because I got used to the way the old libraries performed and sounded. Even if they weren't the best at some things, I knew how they behaved. And this is very obviously not a transparent "port", so we have a whole new set of issues to deal with, so it's up to each user to decide what's what. I didn't pay to upgrade, but I would honestly be PISSED if I had to.

The clarinet legato was never really tight and precise to begin with, so it's not suited for really fast stuff but... compare the kontakt to the sine clarinet on those runs. It's like... one is bad, the other is just atrocious.


----------



## lettucehat

I feel like I needed one last confirmation of my existing position and these posts are exactly what I needed. Thank you for taking the time!


----------



## muziksculp

@bfreepro ,

Given that you have dissected the SINE version of The Berlin Main Orchestra to a high degree, Did you reach out to OT Support, to give them a list or report about all these issues you have experienced with the SINE versions ?

Anyways.. I hope they are reading your posts.


----------



## bfreepro

muziksculp said:


> @bfreepro ,
> 
> Given that you have dissected the SINE version of The Berlin Main Orchestra to a high degree, Did you reach out to OT Support, to give them a list or report about all these issues you have experienced with the SINE versions ?
> 
> Anyways.. I hope they are reading your posts.


I actually wouldn't even remotely consider my findings to be the result of dissecting it to a very high degree, this is just super basic stuff that anyone would notice when trying to compose. I report everything to them. In the past, for instance, with my problems with Metropolis Ark 1, they first said nothing was wrong at all and that it's simply a factor of recording samples in a large hall (which is... not true), and then when I directed them to others who complained about similar issues, they admitted it needed work but still were quite defensive, and in the end, the issues were never addressed.


----------



## muziksculp

bfreepro said:


> I actually wouldn't even remotely consider my findings to be the result of dissecting it to a very high degree, this is just super basic stuff that anyone would notice when trying to compose. I report everything to them. In the past, for instance, with my problems with Metropolis Ark 1, they first said nothing was wrong at all and that it's simply a factor of recording samples in a large hall (which is... not true), and then when I directed them to others who complained about similar issues, they admitted it needed work but still were quite defensive, and in the end, the issues were never addressed.


I'm glad you are reporting all these issues about the SINE versions to them. I wonder what they will reply to you about what you reported to them.


----------



## Zanshin

muziksculp said:


> I'm glad you are reporting all these issues about the SINE versions to them. I wonder what they will reply to you about what you reported to them.


Sounds like he knows what to expect given his experience with support regarding Ark 1 issues.


----------



## muziksculp

Zanshin said:


> Sounds like he knows what to expect given his experience with support regarding Ark 1 issues.


Maybe things have changed to the better at OT, let's wait and see what happens. Let's not rush into judging them based on their past performance/attitude.


----------



## tim727

lettucehat said:


> I feel like I needed one last confirmation of my existing position and these posts are exactly what I needed. Thank you for taking the time!


Did you end up decided to get the Kontakt versions or are you holding off altogether?


----------



## lettucehat

tim727 said:


> Did you end up decided to get the Kontakt versions or are you holding off altogether?


Still thinking. I've totally ruled out Sine for the non-percussion libraries, but that's a big step for an indecisive guy like me (who also hates missing a deal, which the Sine bundle is).


----------



## axb312

lettucehat said:


> Still thinking. I've totally ruled out Sine for the non-percussion libraries, but that's a big step for an indecisive guy like me (who also hates missing a deal, which the Sine bundle is).


I still don't think its a great deal. Rather the libraries are highly overpriced at full price. As is typical with OT.

Also, purchase and be prepared to wait a while for updates which may or may not come.


----------



## lettucehat

axb312 said:


> I still don't think its a great deal. Rather the libraries are highly overpriced at full price. As is typical with OT.
> 
> Also, purchase and be prepared to wait a while for updates which may or may not come.


Well, you know what I mean. Would be a great deal if Sine versions were ready for prime time.


----------



## muziksculp

One thing I don't understand, is if Orchestral Tools has a good number of Professionally trained musical ears, (I hope so), how could they be perceiving things very differently compared to what many on this forum seem to perceive with respect to their SINE version of Berlin Main Orch. ?

There seems to be a big disconnect in evaluations here, or is it a matter of taste, or something else ?

I just don't understand why are their standards of what's supposed to sound right very different from what's being expressed on this forum, and even more ironic is that it is being compared to the same library they developed, but in another sampler format.

One would expect a new version would sound better, and perform better, but it seems most of the comments here are indicating just the opposite.

At the end of the day, something doesn't add up here, and makes no sense to me, unless progress means sounding, and performing worse than the same libraries used to.


----------



## tim727

lettucehat said:


> Still thinking. I've totally ruled out Sine for the non-percussion libraries, but that's a big step for an indecisive guy like me (who also hates missing a deal, which the Sine bundle is).


Haha I'm the same way. I've honestly agonized over this for the last few days. To an embarrassing degree. But I did end up buying the brass and although I haven't tried it out yet (it's still downloading) I highly doubt I'll regret my decision. The strings are a bit tougher for me though, mostly because I didn't actually come into this intending to purchase them. I'm a bit torn because I don't do a lot of string writing (which is one of the main reasons why I wasn't initially intending to get them) but I would like to do more ... and I figure maybe having BS could push me into that.


----------



## jbuhler

bfreepro said:


> So it seems the SINE Strings also added portamento to the lowest (correction: the HIGHEST velocity layer when transitioning between notes) legato dynamic for transitions and removed the high velocity accented bow attack. I don't see options to adjust the attack, I donno. It's just... not the same library. At all.
> 
> You can hear the differences here with the exact same mic setups. I pause a few times so you can really hear the ambience in the string shorts, and also you can clearly hear the "tightened" notes, some of which sound like the attack has been cut off. It just doesn't sound as natural and clear as before. I mentioned some of the patches seem to have less ambience, but the violin legato actually now seems like it has... more? For the same mic position? I donno. I'm just perplexed by this lol. These are just observations, not trying to tear it apart, it's just so very obviously not the same. Some users might like it more, some might like it less. I don't like it. I especially don't like it because I got used to the way the old libraries performed and sounded. Even if they weren't the best at some things, I knew how they behaved. And this is very obviously not a transparent "port", so we have a whole new set of issues to deal with, so it's up to each user to decide what's what. I didn't pay to upgrade, but I would honestly be PISSED if I had to.
> 
> The clarinet legato was never really tight and precise to begin with, so it's not suited for really fast stuff but... compare the kontakt to the sine clarinet on those runs. It's like... one is bad, the other is just atrocious.


The portamento function works the same way it does in the main single articulation legato in the Kontakt library. High velocity triggers portamento. In your example you aren't using the same midi for the Kontakt patch and the Sine patch for the legato.









The adaptive legatos don't work quite the same in the two versions, so they won't play the same in any case, that's true. (The Sine version responds to only two speeds and two velocities.) But if you had high velocities in your midi for the Kontakt legato you would also trigger portamento. In Sine, you call the accented bow attack by keyswitching to accented long. I mean you can do that in the Kontakt version too, so it's not new functionality, but otherwise you'd have to set up a polymap to make the change in Sine if you don't keyswitch.

The spiccatos in Sine are the exposed spiccatos of Kontakt. The serial spiccatos of Sine are the spiccatos of Kontakt. The example you provided is the full ensemble spiccatos, which are the same samples, but the default set up for the full ensemble patches includes the close mic. I hear a difference to be sure, but it doesn't bother me since I tend to only use the ensemble patch like that for sketching in any case.

I agree that the sound and playability of the Sine version are different from the Kontakt version. I prefer the playability of the Sine version since I never got along very well with the Kontakt version. The sound I remain divided on, liking some things in Kontakt and others in Sine.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> One thing I don't understand, is if Orchestral Tools has a good number of Professionally trained musical ears, (I hope so), how could they be perceiving things very differently compared to what many on this forum seem to perceive with respect to their SINE version of Berlin Main Orch. ?
> 
> There seems to be a big disconnect in evaluations here, or is it a matter of taste, or something else ?
> 
> I just don't understand why are their standards of what's supposed to sound right very different from what's being expressed on this forum, and even more ironic is that it is being compared to the same library they developed, but in another sampler format.
> 
> One would expect a new version would sound better, and perform better, but it seems most of the comments here are indicating just the opposite.
> 
> At the end of the day, something doesn't add up here, and makes no sense to me, unless progress means sounding, and performing worse than the same libraries used to.


I think there is a reason the Mains were delayed, and I think there is a reason they were seemingly rushed out before they were ready (though I think the strings are ready enough to have been released, even if I wish they had made different decisions on laying the out for Sine). We also know there was something going on with Sine all year long that made the wait for 1.0.6 very long in coming, since it was out in beta in like March. I suspect it's all interlinked. It's hard to say if it's growing pains or something more serious. The positive reading would be OT managed to bring out a number of very nice new libraries for Sine this past year.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> I think there is a reason they were seemingly rushed out before they were ready


But we don't know if that was the case.

One thing that I find not discussed much is their SINE compressed sample format, how much of an impact does it have on what we hear, when comparing the SINE vs Kontakt versions of the Berlin Orch. Main Libraries ?


----------



## muk

muziksculp said:


> Maybe things have changed to the better at OT, let's wait and see what happens. Let's not rush into judging them based on their past performance/attitude.


Well I sent a ticket to Orchestral Tool's so called support over a week ago with questions about SINE functionality, ideas on what could be improved, and a bug that makes polymap not work on my system. Haven't heard back and honestly, from previous experience with their support, I don't expect to get a response. Quality control and support at Orchestral Tool's are really quite bad. To me that's prolematic with the prices and no refund no resale policy they have.


----------



## lettucehat

muziksculp said:


> But we don't know if that was the case.


Well on the other hand we also don't "know" for sure about any of the assumptions in your previous comment. I think it's much more plausible that they rushed things out for BF, especially considering that weird post a few weeks ago where they basically alluded to this. Yet the libraries came out on Sine. This is all more believable to me than that they truly all think the new legatos are superior, which we are basically just getting from that video. Of course it doesn't make sense - they made the original libraries after all, with the level of quality we are familiar with.

Sometimes companies just say stuff that might not match with what they personally think, sometimes it's policy, sometimes it comes down to the personalities involved. I think totally transparent developers who are constantly in touch with customers and who readily admit to all flaws are kind of an exception in this industry and others. I can think of a good number of sample or plugin developers who are quite the opposite and are really dismissive and rude! OT is mostly not commenting so far, so the optimistic side of me says they will work on all of this. The pessimistic side of me says either they are dumbing down legatos in favor of simplicity and live playability (as some others have done, seems to be a trend) or they just do not care and want to focus on making more libraries rather than working on these expensive ones that new casual buyers aren't getting. I lean towards optimistic for sure, but either way I have to go Kontakt if I get these.


----------



## tim727

muziksculp said:


> One thing I don't understand, is if Orchestral Tools has a good number of Professionally trained musical ears, (I hope so), how could they be perceiving things very differently compared to what many on this forum seem to perceive with respect to their SINE version of Berlin Main Orch. ?
> 
> There seems to be a big disconnect in evaluations here, or is it a matter of taste, or something else ?
> 
> I just don't understand why are their standards of what's supposed to sound right very different from what's being expressed on this forum, and even more ironic is that it is being compared to the same library they developed, but in another sampler format.
> 
> One would expect a new version would sound better, and perform better, but it seems most of the comments here are just the opposite.
> 
> At the end of the day, something doesn't add up here, and makes no sense to me, unless progress means sounding, and performing worse than the same libraries used to.


You are exactly right my friend. And this is exactly what I was alluding to the other day. Surely anyone on this forum with ears can at the very least admit that the brass has rather egregious problems (in my opinion the winds also sound terrible but I put less focus on that because I already own BWW for Kontakt and am quite happy with it) ... and now we see clear evidence of issues in BS as well.

I find it absolutely impossible that the people testing this library at OT did not see these issues. There is no world in which that makes any sense whatsoever. I mean Trumpet 1 on the brass didn't just sound bad by OT's standards ... but rather by any standard. That's just one example of many of course. So the whole thing to me is really baffling.


----------



## muziksculp

muk said:


> Well I sent a ticket to Orchestral Tool's so called support over a week ago with questions about SINE functionality, ideas on what could be improved, and a bug that makes polymap not work on my system. Haven't heard back and honestly, from previous experience with their support, I don't expect to get a response. Quality control and support at Orchestral Tool's are really quite bad. To me that's inexcuseable with the prices and no refund no resale policy they have.


That's very disappointing. Sorry to hear about this. I really don't understand why they lack in service, and customer support ? These are extremely important things in today's super competitive market place, A company's reputation is also super important.


----------



## tim727

lettucehat said:


> I lean towards optimistic for sure, but either way I have to go Kontakt if I get these.


I do want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't see how it's possible for them not to have known full well how many problems these libraries have. How could anyone listen to Trumpet 1 in the form it's in and proudly sell that product to customers? For me I'm frustrated because I really did want to get these on SINE but I at least was able to recognize the flaws in the port before pulling the trigger and got Kontakt instead, so at least I was able to avert disaster. But let me tell you, if I had bought the SINE version of BB on day one of the sale in the form that it's in I would have been absolutely *livid*.


----------



## lettucehat

tim727 said:


> I do want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't see how it's possible for them not to have known full well how many problems these libraries have. How could anyone listen to Trumpet 1 in the form it's in and proudly sell that product to customers? For me I'm frustrated because I really did want to get these on SINE but I at least was able to recognize the flaws in the port before pulling the trigger and got Kontakt instead, so at least I was able to avert disaster. But let me tell you, if I had bought the SINE version of BB on day one of the sale in the form that it's in I would have been absolutely *livid*.


I totally agree. A sale with a statement that Sine versions would be available by Xmas or whatever would have been a lot simpler but Black Friday does things to people I guess. And if you've got pressure to make those sales, hey, it's still Berlin Brass isn't it? Fix the details later, you can directly push updates to the customer through the Sine player. I'm sure they didn't mean for blatant bugs to be there, but everything else like legato is such a grey area technically, unlike a car shipping with a fatal flaw that can be and is tested by third parties with certain standards in place. "Oh we genuinely thought the legato was great, but we heard your feedback and now it is much closer to Berlin Brass _Classic_" or something


----------



## dhmusic

muziksculp said:


> @bfreepro ,
> 
> Given that you have dissected the SINE version of The Berlin Main Orchestra to a high degree, Did you reach out to OT Support, to give them a list or report about all these issues you have experienced with the SINE versions ?
> 
> Anyways.. I hope they are reading your posts.





muziksculp said:


> I'm glad you are reporting all these issues about the SINE versions to them. I wonder what they will reply to you about what you reported to them.


They have teams of people on top of this stuff. They might reply or they might not because they probably already have a long list that includes these.

I agree that they should probably get a rep or something. But it would look really unprofessional if OT proper were here all the time trying to update everyone every 5 minutes.

It's also a different work culture over there. I don't like the whole "customer is always right" service mindset we have in the US. It's so fake and undignified. They've already been getting to some of the updates haven't they? I'm sure they're gonna keep at it.


----------



## tim727

dhmusic said:


> It's also a different work culture over there. I don't like the whole "customer is always right" service mindset we have in the US. It's so fake and undignified. They've already been getting to some of the updates haven't they? I'm sure they're gonna keep at it.


I do agree with you that the American "customer is always right" attitude is ... wrong. The customer is _not_ always right. *But they are this time*. When you release a product that is broken and you're not transparent about that with your loyal customers ... and those people shell out hard earned money to get a product that in certain respects is unusable that is simply not ok.

Edit: they don't need to -- nor should they -- have a rep on here answering questions every five minutes. But what they should have done was either (1) wait to release the libraries until they were ready or (2) be transparent about the current flaws and limitations in the libraries so that people knew what they were paying for. Either way, at this point they REALLY should provide either (1) the possibility for refund to people who bought the SINE versions or (2) the ability to crossgrade down to Kontakt. I do think it would also be a classy move to provide a free crossgrade from Kontakt to SINE, though I don't think it is necessarily incumbent on them to do that because anyone who got a Kontakt version was *not* getting a broken lib and knew exactly what they were getting when they bought their library.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> But we don't know if that was the case.


We know the libraries were released with a lot of problems, and OT deemed the problems with the brass to be sufficient that it needed an immediate patch. So the alternative explanation is that they were happy with what they released. I'm not sure that's a charitable explanation.

I do think the strings were more or less ready. People may prefer the Kontakt version, but that was always going to happen. That would have happened if OT released a perfect port. But I've heard things in the brass and woodwinds that are decidedly unhappy and really should have been caught before release.



tim727 said:


> clear evidence of issues in BS


The evidence isn't actually that clear with the strings, having spent a good hour reproducing @bfreepro's issues. I can reproduce them, but I can also not reproduce them if I choose other paths. And I can produce problems in the Kontakt version as well. But the thing about BS is that it has lots of redundancies, and so lots of ways of doing things.

I have other issues with the Sine port having to do with the frictions BS continues to introduce to my workflow. The port is not well thought out for one track keyswitching. And I simply don't understand what OT thinks the polymap is good for in its current form. It would be helpful if they made a video showing how they thought a person would use it in practice, given that if you hit an errant keyswitch you're done and you have to completely reload. In any case, most of the issues I have with the Sine version of BS would have been there even if the port was immaculate, because they stem from OT having a quite different idea about how the library should be used.



muk said:


> Well I sent a ticket to Orchestral Tool's so called support over a week ago with questions about SINE functionality, ideas on what could be improved, and a bug that makes polymap not work on my system. Haven't heard back and honestly, from previous experience with their support, I don't expect to get a response. Quality control and support at Orchestral Tool's are really quite bad. To me that's inexcuseable with the prices and no refund no resale policy they have.


I've had good experiences with OT support when it comes to solving straightforward technical problems. When I had an issue with Amber crashing Logic, they helped me figure out what was going on. In those cases they are quick and follow up in a very timely fashion. But when it comes to things like improvements or fixing bugs certain kinds of scripting bugs they are often less helpful.


----------



## Jose7822

Here's a short piece I composed last year. I used it as a way to test the Berlin collection, except the Strings since I have to figure out how I'm going to approach using them. I've decided to go with Audio Imperia's Jaeger instead. There are a couple of articulations and Instruments from EW Hollywood series (i.e. The harp, Flutter Piccolo and Flutes at the very beginning of the piece, as well as the Horn Rips), given that these are missing from the Berlin collection. I also added Damage 2 to enhance the percussion section. There's barely any EQ, only external reverb on the non-Berlin libraries (to match them) and Ozone at the end to slightly clear the midrange and add limiting.

Despite all of its shortcomings, I really like how the Berlin sample library collection sounds. I really hope that OT continues to improve it in a timely manner, because the potential for it to be great is definitely there.


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> So the alternative explanation is that they were happy with what they released.


If they were genuinely happy with it, then that's pretty concerning to be honest ...


> The evidence isn't actually that clear with the strings.


BS definitely is the best of the three. There is no question about that. But the stuff from that vid showed the lib in a very unfavorable light IMO.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> It would be helpful if they made a video showing how they thought a person would use it in practice, given that if you hit an errant keyswitch you're done and you have to completely reload. In any case, most of the issues I have with the Sine version of BS would have been there even if the port was immaculate, because they stem from OT having a quite different idea about how the library should be used.


That's a good point. I would love to get their perspective on how they envision these libraries being used with the Polymap feature via some in-depth videos. That's another area I feel they are lacking at. (Posting Video Tutorials) on how to best use their libraries, and their features. Spitfire Audio is quite good at this detail.


----------



## dhmusic

Jose7822 said:


> Here's a short piece I composed last year. I used it as a way to test the Berlin collection, except the Strings since I have to figure out how I'm going to approach using them. I've decided to go with Audio Imperia's Jaeger instead. There are a couple of articulations and Instruments from EW Hollywood series (i.e. The harp, Flutter Piccolo and Flutes at the very beginning of the piece, as well as the Horn Rips), given that these are missing from the Berlin collection. I also added Damage 2 to enhance the percussion section. There's barely any EQ, only external reverb on the non-Berlin libraries (to match them) and Ozone at the end to slightly clear the midrange and add limiting.
> 
> Despite all of its shortcomings, I really like how the Berlin sample library collection sounds. I really hope that OT continues to improve it in a timely manner, because the potential for it to be great is definitely there.


Those articulations/instruments aren't missing. They have extremely elaborate versions of those available in their expansions/ other collections.


----------



## G_Erland

muziksculp said:


> One thing I don't understand, is if Orchestral Tools has a good number of Professionally trained musical ears, (I hope so), how could they be perceiving things very differently compared to what many on this forum seem to perceive with respect to their SINE version of Berlin Main Orch. ?
> 
> There seems to be a big disconnect in evaluations here, or is it a matter of taste, or something else ?
> 
> I just don't understand why are their standards of what's supposed to sound right very different from what's being expressed on this forum, and even more ironic is that it is being compared to the same library they developed, but in another sampler format.
> 
> One would expect a new version would sound better, and perform better, but it seems most of the comments here are indicating just the opposite.
> 
> At the end of the day, something doesn't add up here, and makes no sense to me, unless progress means sounding, and performing worse than the same libraries used to.


When reading this thread I have to say I wonder a bit if people could have had enough time with Sine. Im not talking about crashes or if a particular trumpet has gone wrong. With any lib in any player it takes time to see what works right? Im not a professional, so I want to be careful, but when i record my first lines with anything I, without exception, get buyers remorse haha. On the second try I start to «see» the library, and feel I get the line to maybe 40% of what it can be. I also think that to get towards good results i have to switch articulations much more than i initially think, and finesse cc like crazy. And then global tempo variations, and then audio rides and processing. Legato in the end being a small part of the puzzle. I can definitely make wonky lines with any library, and in my experience just putting the notes in never ever works.


----------



## Simon Ravn

Chungus said:


> Wut? Sure they do, vibrato can be turned on and off with CC3 in both Kontakt and SINE.


Ha - you might be right. But they don't use it in this example by Ole. I must admit I have just revisited Berlin Brass after the SINE release, and am actually positively surprised by how nice it sounds. So I don't know it inside out at all.


----------



## djrustycans

bfreepro said:


> I’ve been eyeing this thread for some time and wanted to hold off on any comments, but I’ve gotta say I’ve now completely deleted the SINE versions of BWW and Berlin Strings from my hard drive and I’m back to using the kontakt versions.
> 
> I was genuinely thrilled when I found out they were going to release these libraries on SINE. I actually am a huge fan of the SINE player, minus a few little quirks (_anyone else not able to resize the GUI? It used to be fine but now it’s huge and I can’t even reach the bottom corner to resize, and can’t see some of the controls like enabling and disabling dynamic layers, RRs, etc._)
> 
> I think the ability to purchase and download individual instruments and only the mic positions you need is a major game changer, especially for saving precious hard drive space. I’m saying all this because I do really appreciate the player, and I have a ton of respect for OT as a company for their sampling approach and delivering this player with so many useful features from the get-go and continuing to update it.
> 
> That being said, even on a good day I find their libraries to be quite overpriced. So I think this is worth mentioning from a consumer standpoint: the SINE versions of BWW and Berlin Strings are nowhere near the quality of the original kontakt libraries, with legato patches being the biggest offenders. Overall the sound has changed, too. I noticed the lack of room ambience immediately even with the exact same mic loaded up, which isn’t a bad thing, actually I’d prefer it… if only the legato patches sounded the same!
> 
> Legato transitions between notes now have a tendency to sound just like a sustained patch with simulated legato or something, they transition very sloppily, meaning you get a smeared transition while two notes play at once, even if just for a moment. They don’t slur together naturally anymore. I did a test with some quick runs for both woodwinds and strings, (flute 1 and vins 1 to be precise) and the kontakt versions sounded realistic and detailed, just like they always do. There’s a really nice blend and obviously advanced scripting going on, with quick, rapid transitions, slurred/blurred transitions, and the notes also have a very sharp, accented attack on the highest velocity layer.
> 
> The sine version just sounds inferior. It sounds fake and midi-fied, especially on runs. The slurring between notes is also completely missing sometimes when you play slow, or if you play too fast, the notes will not release fast enough and you get what sounds like a smeared sustain or shorts patch instead of an actual instrument playing a bunch of notes quickly. I’ll post examples shortly. Basically I’m satisfied with the sound and tone but the scripting seems to be highly inferior and sounds like a shoddy scripted legato has replaced the wonderful variety of transitions we got in the kontakt versions.
> 
> The percussion package is amazing, and the fact they give you the timpani is also very much appreciated. Again, I don’t want to bash too much, but I am quite disappointed with the scripting of the SINE editions of BWW and Berlin Strings. I also noticed things like the full string spiccato patch sounding like the notes were sometimes “tightened” artificially and they lack the initial attack that the kontakt version had. Granted, the shorts in Berlin strings were always VERY prone to the “machine gun effect”, more so than any of my other string libraries, but it still sounds different.
> 
> There are obviously pros to the SINE versions, so to be fair, I’m highly impressed with the quality of percussion so far, and the fact I could potentially have the entire Berlin Series (minus the brass, I do not own the brass) take up significantly less hard drive space. After playing and comparing for at least four days now, it’s very clear to me that legato scripting (or lack thereof) is where the majority of user complaints have been, for good reason... it simply sounds vastly inferior at this time.
> 
> TL:DR Its not just the brass. The legato in general sounds like a completely different library. Ive noticed legato in general in SINE has never REALLY impressed me, being good in some areas (Jxl 6 horns and 3 trumpets, some of the modus instruments) and just passable on others.
> 
> I’m keeping the kontakt versions for now, there’s absolutely no doubt about it. I’ll use the SINE percussion, but even the BWW soloists library took out the Teldex IR/convolution reverb which made the kontakt versions such a joy to listen to and easily place in a mix. That’s much more minor, but it just kind of makes me place doubts on any SINE conversions in the future. They’re simply not complete… yet. I actually welcome the sounds being a bit more dry and less reverberant, but still… that also shows something is going on and these are not identical sounding even on the best of days. I have hope they will continue to work on these.


I’ve spoken with support about the 1st Violin Spiccato which are the worst offenders. Presumably the new ensemble patch uses the Spiccato Exposed rather than the Kontakt Ensemble patch which used the original Spiccatos. Haven’t tried it yet.

I had a dialogue with support before the Sine release about the 1st Violin Spiccato Exposed because they were vastly inferior to the 2nd Violin patch which is bouncy, dynamic and tight. Violins 1 sound like the initial attack portion of the sample has
been chopped off which is extremely unnatural but looking under the hood in Kontakt it seems this was done in editing for whatever reason. Maybe lots of the RR sample attacks had issues they had to remove?

The Sine version still exhibits this behaviour so I’ve contacted support about this - just to say, they’ve been absolutely slammed due to the sale but will be looking at all issues ASAP.

In Kontakt, I created my own Spiccato Exposed Ensemble patch Multi but muted 1st Violins. 

It is absolutely superb - with a good amount of close mics mixed in. Brilliant dynamics, detail and playability! Haven’t tried it with Sine yet.

I’ve mentioned this before but sonically the Kontakt and Sine versions of BS sounded much more similar when working at the library’s native sample rate (48khz). The Kontakt version fared better at lower sample rates (44.1). 

A big thing which would help is if OT could provide patches like they did for Kontakt with the different attacks seamlessly integrated. Basically as per 1st Violins Fingered Legato in Kontakt with the sus accented attack at high velocities. I’ve had a crack at setting this up in Sine but it was less successful. This is the kind of thing that’s missing from the port which is an important omission in terms of speed/usability/playability.


----------



## tim727

G_Erland said:


> When reading this thread I have to say I wonder a bit if people could have had enough time with Sine. Im not talking about crashes or if a particular trumpet has gone wrong. With any lib in any player it takes time to see what works right? Im not a professional, so I want to be careful, but when i record my first lines with anything I, without exception, get buyers remorse haha. On the second try I start to «see» the library, and feel I get the line to maybe 40% of what it can be. I also think that to get towards good results i have to switch articulations much more than i initially think, and finesse cc like crazy. And then global tempo variations, and then audio rides and processing. Legato in the end being a small part of the puzzle. I can definitely make wonky lines with any library, and in my experience just putting the notes in never ever works.


I get what you're saying, but there are some things that simply can't be "finessed"  The other point of course is that one would not expect to have to dramatically "finesse" things in an allegedly top of the line library.


----------



## G_Erland

tim727 said:


> I get what you're saying, but there are some things that simply can't be "finessed"  The other point of course is that one would not expect to have to dramatically "finesse" things in an allegedly top of the line library.


No, maybe not…hehe, but here is an analogy: when i bought my first professional camera, i was rather shocked - it had none of the pleasant things that cameras normally have, no autofocus, no stabilization, i cant even delete files from disk via the camera. The logic is that professionals dont want any automatic process to impede control. Ive started to expect this in the audio realm as well, theres no plug and play for me. @bfreepro examples are interesting. Where as i think i prefer the fast notes in Sine, and think maybe the differences otherwise in the strings are down to behavior, some of the woods examples have that odd thing were the room sound seems to stack and you get that accordion-like sound. Those strange hangs or overlaps is really a thing to fix, and i would per now not be sure if that can be done with settings.


----------



## Vik

In an ideal world, OT (this is valid for other companies as well) would have had overview of both ‘known issues’ and of differences between Berlin Strings (etc) on Sine vs Berlin Strings on Kontakt.
We don’t live in an ideal world, so maybe it would be a good idea to compile such overviews in dedicated* threads here, only listing either differences or known issues per library.

* as in: listing either differences or known issues only, and continue the discussions the already existing threads.


----------



## bfreepro

G_Erland said:


> No, maybe not…hehe, but here is an analogy: when i bought my first professional camera, i was rather shocked - it had none of the pleasant things that cameras normally have, no autofocus, no stabilization, i cant even delete files from disk via the camera. The logic is that professionals dont want any automatic process to impede control. Ive started to expect this in the audio realm as well, theres no plug and play for me. @bfreepro examples are interesting. Where as i think i prefer the fast notes in Sine, and think maybe the differences otherwise in the strings are down to behavior, some of the woods examples have that odd thing were the room sound seems to stack and you get that accordion-like sound. Those strange hangs or overlaps is really a thing to fix, and i would per now not be sure if that can be done with settings.


You nailed it on the accordion-like effect where the room sound seems to stack up along with the notes. The strings example I totally forgot to include the one other thing I thought was odd, and it goes along with the lack of note accent at high velocity settings, it’s the fact that there is also no “slow” or espressivo attack when the velocity is low and you trigger a note, all things that just worked instantly with the Kontakt version. The cut off note attacks (for the shorts) seem really glaring to me as well.

The portamento thing, I actually wasn’t trying to recreate that or to imply that one didn’t work, it was just odd that the low velocity overlapping notes trigger a very slurred transition in Kontakt and not in SINE, but the portamento was still there.

The biggest issue for me were the woodwinds, not as many triggers available for the legato on all instruments, and the short notes sounding like someone used a “tightness” knob which then cut off some of the attack. I mean, the exact same mics are loaded and the flute does not have that clarity and focus, it sounds more like a tree mic only, where the Kontakt gives a more “tree+close” sound, with that extra detail and clarity.

I totally get that a new product and sampler will have a new set of issues. But also, when one product just works out of the box, and then a new update requires keyswitching, legato trigger and volume editing, setting up poly maps, just to get the same result as the previous version, I don’t think it’s unfair whatsoever to point this out and express that this is actually not an update or improvement at all.

OT support got back to me and I sent them these things along with a video comparison. While the strings issues can be explained by a lack of speed zones/velocity triggers (a major downgrade if you ask me…) the clarinet legato… I mean. Those don’t even sound remotely the same. And the flute, while being more subtle, still does not sound or behave quite the same. I wouldn’t care about little things here and there, but when all of my favorite instruments seemed altered, I think it’s totally justified to feel disappointed. 

I’m not writing it off, I have faith they will listen and improve, I don’t think it’s garbage, but to me it’s obviously more of a downgrade or, to some, might be a side-grade rather than an upgrade. And I’ll also fully admit I got super hyped for the SINE versions… so much disk space to save… but I’ll stick with Kontakt for now, stay in the loop, and happily provide my findings to OT support because I want them to fix this and truly give us all the full Berlin mains on SINE, without any cut corners


----------



## G_Erland

bfreepro said:


> You nailed it on the accordion-like effect where the room sound seems to stack up along with the notes. The strings example I totally forgot to include the one other thing I thought was odd, and it goes along with the lack of note accent at high velocity settings, it’s the fact that there is also no “slow” or espressivo attack when the velocity is low and you trigger a note, all things that just worked instantly with the Kontakt version. The cut off note attacks (for the shorts) seem really glaring to me as well.
> 
> The portamento thing, I actually wasn’t trying to recreate that or to imply that one didn’t work, it was just odd that the low velocity overlapping notes trigger a very slurred transition in Kontakt and not in SINE, but the portamento was still there.
> 
> The biggest issue for me were the woodwinds, not as many triggers available for the legato on all instruments, and the short notes sounding like someone used a “tightness” knob which then cut off some of the attack. I mean, the exact same mics are loaded and the flute does not have that clarity and focus, it sounds more like a tree mic only, where the Kontakt gives a more “tree+close” sound, with that extra detail and clarity.
> 
> I totally get that a new product and sampler will have a new set of issues. But also, when one product just works out of the box, and then a new update requires keyswitching, legato trigger and volume editing, setting up poly maps, just to get the same result as the previous version, I don’t think it’s unfair whatsoever to point this out and express that this is actually not an update or improvement at all.
> 
> OT support got back to me and I sent them these things along with a video comparison. While the strings issues can be explained by a lack of speed zones/velocity triggers (a major downgrade if you ask me…) the clarinet legato… I mean. Those don’t even sound remotely the same. And the flute, while being more subtle, still does not sound or behave quite the same. I wouldn’t care about little things here and there, but when all of my favorite instruments seemed altered, I think it’s totally justified to feel disappointed.
> 
> I’m not writing it off, I have faith they will listen and improve, I don’t think it’s garbage, but to me it’s obviously more of a downgrade or, to some, might be a side-grade rather than an upgrade. And I’ll also fully admit I got super hyped for the SINE versions… so much disk space to save… but I’ll stick with Kontakt for now, stay in the loop, and happily provide my findings to OT support because I want them to fix this and truly give us all the full Berlin mains on SINE, without any cut corners


You know, im a new user so there is such an incredible amount to check and figure out, Im in no position to really compare whatsoever - your points all seem valid and you bring sensible tests, so thanks!


----------



## Fever Phoenix

tim727 said:


> I do agree with you that the American "customer is always right" attitude is ... wrong. The customer is _not_ always right. *But they are this time*. When you release a product that is broken and you're not transparent about that with your loyal customers ... and those people shell out hard earned money to get a product that in certain respects is unusable that is simply not ok.
> 
> Edit: they don't need to -- nor should they -- have a rep on here answering questions every five minutes. But what they should have done was either (1) wait to release the libraries until they were ready or (2) be transparent about the current flaws and limitations in the libraries so that people knew what they were paying for. Either way, at this point they REALLY should provide either (1) the possibility for refund to people who bought the SINE versions or (2) the ability to crossgrade down to Kontakt. I do think it would also be a classy move to provide a free crossgrade from Kontakt to SINE, though I don't think it is necessarily incumbent on them to do that because anyone who got a Kontakt version was *not* getting a broken lib and knew exactly what they were getting when they bought their library.


will write OT to ask for a crossgrade, all Sine version buyers should


----------



## sheen

Fever Phoenix said:


> will write OT to ask for a crossgrade, all Sine version buyers should


..I'll add the word "free"


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

I'm sorry if this has been brought up before: Sine player stand-alone, Berlin strings Violins1&2 octave scale runs crash the player upon pressing any key. Can anyone confirm?

I'll report it to OT support anyway but just wanted to know if this is a common problem.


----------



## Breaker

AlexSonicsMusic said:


> I'm sorry if this has been brought up before: Sine player stand-alone, Berlin strings Violins1&2 octave scale runs crash the player upon pressing any key. Can anyone confirm?
> 
> I'll report it to OT support anyway but just wanted to know if this is a common problem.


Working perfectly here on SINE standalone with Windows.
(Apart from the patch being called "Violins I *Ocatve* Scale Runs"...)


----------



## AlexSonicsMusic

Breaker said:


> Working perfectly here on SINE standalone with Windows.
> (Apart from the patch being called "Violins I *Ocatve* Scale Runs"...)


Haha, yes indeed. I just noticed. For me all the ocatve scale runs crash the player.


----------



## jonathanwright

Works fine here on a Mac.


----------



## Jose7822

dhmusic said:


> Those articulations/instruments aren't missing. They have extremely elaborate versions of those available in their expansions/ other collections.


You said it yourself, they are “available in their expansions/ other collections.” Therefore they are missing from the main collection 🙂.

At least they added the Timpani to the SINE version. I thought it was weird to have almost everything under the Sun, except one of the main percussion instruments in an Orchestral percussion library.


----------



## manuhz

bfreepro said:


> absolutely. Well, the thing is, I absolutely love it for the woods, but for the strings, they were just too wet sometimes. I remember buying the strings bc I felt the Spitfire AIR sound was too wet, but I found Berlin strings weren't that much better, actually I found them more or less just as wet honestly. Also, worth noting, this reverberation was most prominent during... you guessed it, legato transitions, especially slurs. It would ring out across the stereo field and sometimes be louder than the actual notes being played. So it’s worth noting because maybe they actually toned down the slurs and resonant note releases to try to address this, but now they’re just non existent. Obviously both versions had some quirks that annoyed me (which definitely contributes to my thought that they’re overpriced), but the legato in the kontakt version is just so, so, so much better, I’d take the rogue resonant frequencies any day. The notes also resonated for quite a long time after you released them. Just things I noticed and it was never a huge deal breaker, but very noticeable for me.
> In a perfect world I’d have just a TINY bit less of the teldex sound, so that you can add your own hall verb and glue everything together. I guess the biggest point is that even if they tried to improve the sound and lessen the resonance somehow, it’s still not the Berlin strings we all remember. I think if we get Berlin strings on SINE it should be identical, and if we want improvements, I’d just invest in a new library then or wait til they improve the SINE scripting, but releasing it now feels very half baked.


Have you tried to increase / decrease the release slope in SINE?
This has actually a huge impact and can make the sound more similar to the Kontakt version.


----------



## Jett Hitt

The octave runs worked in the patches I tried, but most of the repetitions patches crashed Logic. The only one I found that worked was in Oboe 1. I can't remember all of the ones that crashed, but for sure: horn ensemble, violin 1, flute 2, timpani. At some point, I realized that I wasn't cut out to be a beta tester and just quit.

If they fix all of the problems, I will be quite happy to have these on Sine. Something tells me that is a long time coming, however. The problems are simply too numerous. In the meantime, I feel like I just bought libraries that I can't use. It takes a fair amount of time to load an orchestral template. Reloading it every time you accidentally select the wrong patch is out of the question. It is like composing in a minefield.

I say again @Hendrik-Schwarzer, the equitable solution here is to give everyone the Kontakt versions until you work out the bugs. This would restore some faith in the community. As is, we are just beta testers who had to actually buy our beta copies.


----------



## holywilly

I wish @OrchestralTools offers free kontakt copy to whom bought the SINE version, so we can have the libraries that can use to work right the way.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> As is, we are just beta testers who had to actually buy our beta copies.


Beta testers don't have to pay for their copies but also the problems they surface are generally addressed. I wish I had faith that will be the case here too. 

I continue to emphasize the redundancy of these libraries, which is one of their great virtues even in the current state of Sine. Though not ideal, of course, it does mean you can usually find a workaround to any issue—I try to keep that in mind as well. I mean, we shouldn't have to spend that time finding workarounds, but it's very nice that they are there.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I continue to emphasize the redundancy of these libraries, which is one of their great virtues even in the current state of Sine. Though not ideal, of course, it does mean you can usually find a workaround to any issue—I try to keep that in mind as well. I mean, we shouldn't have to spend that time finding workarounds, but it's very nice that they are there.


I agree. I could probably make the current versions work in my daily flow--all except for the crashing. That part is just unacceptable. If OT were a little sample developer with fairly priced products, I would be a little more forgiving. But they are not. They put themselves forth as the Cadillac of developers, and they price their products accordingly. The delayed repairs to BSS shook my faith in them a bit, but I took it in stride because the library was completely usable. These libraries are not, and the premature release of these is a real blight on the OT name for me.

I spent the morning playing with BS in Sine. What a lovely sound. And yet nothing about the organization of this library makes any sense to me. I typically set up my DAW like an orchestral page with one instrument per track. It works wonderfully well with BSS, but I don't see how that can possibly work with this. Perhaps Marc at Babylonwaves will have some brilliant solution. It seems like such an old-school way of thinking, except it isn't even that because they have the longs and shorts all mixed in together. I don't know what they were smoking.

I was so annoyed at myself for not buying Brass and Percussion during last year's sale that I jumped immediately when the sale went on this year. I should have taken my time, downloaded BS and BWW, and listened to reviews before completing the collection. With what I am seeing right now, I probably would have just waited for Abbey Road modular.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I spent the morning playing with BS in Sine. What a lovely sound. And yet nothing about the organization of this library makes any sense to me. I typically set up my DAW like an orchestral page with one instrument per track. It works wonderfully well with BSS, but I don't see how that can possibly work with this. Perhaps Marc at Babylonwaves will have some brilliant solution. It seems like such an old-school way of thinking, except it isn't even that because they have the longs and shorts all mixed in together. I don't know what they were smoking.


I also like to work with one instrument per track, though I often separate out legatos on to a second track. I'm also trying to figure out how to make the Sine implementation of BS work with one instrument per track. I can set it up using midi channels to trigger the articulations in one track with keyswitches, but there is still the issue of propagating CCs, and then of course managing all the articulations once you get them into the track is another issue. 

I'm thinking of creating a track that corresponds more or less to the BSS arrangement and using that as a kind of basic articulations track, and then creating a set of secondary tracks that contains the additional articulations from BS and the Special Bows. I think I can do this in two instrument tracks, maybe three. And I'll only load the extra tracks when needed. This is how I work with SCS, though I can load everything in one track with that library due to the implementation of UACC KS.


----------



## bfreepro

manuhz said:


> Have you tried to increase / decrease the release slope in SINE?
> This has actually a huge impact and can make the sound more similar to the Kontakt version.


I have been trying this along with the legato volume, etc. When I adjust the release slider, the note release of course is much shorter or longer, but the actual legato transition still lingers/rings out longer than it should. The legato transition ringing out is what's causing these "accordion" like sounds which makes it sound unnatural and MIDI-ish. The Kontakt version just didn't have these issues and sounded much more natural with the way it handled different legato types. Basically, we'd need a legato release slider lol, but you're absolutely correct this option does make a difference and for anyone having issues, it's a great place to start! I can begin to alleviate some of the issues by adjusting these two sliders, but in the end, it never sounds as good as the Kontakt version :(


----------



## coprhead6

I’m having the opposite experience with legato in SINE - the “accordion” effect is more noticiable in Kontakt! SINE runs are cleaner and I can hear the script reducing the room ambience significantly during faster transitions.

Flute 1 legato was almost unusable for me in Kontakt due to room ambience buildup and now it’s one of my favorites.

The dedicated legato patches in Kontakt never spoke to me - especially in BB. I could never quite get the desired legato transition between runs and slurred. Notes would jump out and it was very distracting when playing at a medium tempo. I find it so helpful that SINE separated the attacks from the legato speed.

Sure there are some issues but the doom and gloom on this thread is baffling to me.


----------



## Casiquire

coprhead6 said:


> I’m having the opposite experience with legato in SINE - the “accordion” effect is more noticiable in Kontakt! SINE runs are cleaner and I can hear the script reducing the room ambience significantly during faster transitions.
> 
> Flute 1 legato was almost unusable for me in Kontakt due to room ambience buildup and now it’s one of my favorites.
> 
> The dedicated legato patches in Kontakt never spoke to me - especially in BB. I could never quite get the desired legato transition between runs and slurred. Notes would jump out and it was very distracting when playing at a medium tempo. I find it so helpful that SINE separated the attacks from the legato speed.
> 
> Sure there are some issues but the doom and gloom on this thread is baffling to me.


That's been my experience with the winds as well, and the doom and gloom is weird to me too. There are some issues but also some improvements. 

The big complaint seems to be with the brass, which i have the last experience with in SINE, so maybe I've just missed it.


----------



## bfreepro

coprhead6 said:


> I’m having the opposite experience with legato in SINE - the “accordion” effect is more noticiable in Kontakt! SINE runs are cleaner and I can hear the script reducing the room ambience significantly during faster transitions.
> 
> Flute 1 legato was almost unusable for me in Kontakt due to room ambience buildup and now it’s one of my favorites.
> 
> The dedicated legato patches in Kontakt never spoke to me - especially in BB. I could never quite get the desired legato transition between runs and slurred. Notes would jump out and it was very distracting when playing at a medium tempo. I find it so helpful that SINE separated the attacks from the legato speed.
> 
> Sure there are some issues but the doom and gloom on this thread is baffling to me.


Did you see the video I posted of the example? I just genuinely want to know if that's what yours sounds like. To me, in that instance, the room ambience and runs are much less clean in the SINE version. In that example, is the SINE version better to your ears? I am genuinely interested, not trying to say you're wrong or anything whatsoever and not being sarcastic. Just curious because obviously we each have preferences and whatnot. Is there a certain instrument or patch that you found the SINE version to be better at, or just all in general?


----------



## bfreepro

coprhead6 said:


> I’m having the opposite experience with legato in SINE - the “accordion” effect is more noticiable in Kontakt! SINE runs are cleaner and I can hear the script reducing the room ambience significantly during faster transitions.
> 
> Flute 1 legato was almost unusable for me in Kontakt due to room ambience buildup and now it’s one of my favorites.
> 
> The dedicated legato patches in Kontakt never spoke to me - especially in BB. I could never quite get the desired legato transition between runs and slurred. Notes would jump out and it was very distracting when playing at a medium tempo. I find it so helpful that SINE separated the attacks from the legato speed.
> 
> Sure there are some issues but the doom and gloom on this thread is baffling to me.





https://vi-control.net/community/data/video/63/63001-b50e4c8a89b2ea0020c09a0e3e2898c0.mp4



Like this exactly at 2:00, I play both runs back to back, same exact mic positions, and they don't sound the same, and more importantly, to my ears, the SINE version sounds way more "accordian-y" and the transitions and releases are much more reverberant to my ears.

I'm really not trying to be doom and gloom (and I know you were referring to the thread as the whole, not my comments), and I know this thread is kind of that way now, but I genuinely think it's okay to point this stuff out, that even with the same mic positions, the library does not sound or behave the same. To some that's good, to others that's bad, but it just is not an accurate and complete port, for better or for worse.


----------



## coprhead6

bfreepro said:


> Did you see the video I posted of the example? I just genuinely want to know if that's what yours sounds like. To me, in that instance, the room ambience and runs are much less clean in the SINE version. In that example, is the SINE version better to your ears? I am genuinely interested, not trying to say you're wrong or anything whatsoever and not being sarcastic. Just curious because obviously we each have preferences and whatnot. Is there a certain instrument or patch that you found the SINE version to be better at, or just all in general?


Your Kontakt versions sound much better to me - we're hearing the same things! I just don't understand how your SINE version sounds like that haha. Were you using the same Midi data? They do play quite differently.

And no worries man, we're all just trying to help eachother.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi, 

I mentioned this detail on one of my posts earlier on this thread, but I guess no one commented on it, or noticed it. 

So, let me mention it again. 

The SINE version uses their new very compressed audio format, compared to the audio format they used in their NI Kontakt counterparts of the Berlin Main Orch. Libraries. 

I'm curious how much of what users are noticing in terms of sonic differences, and performance/playability has to do with this detail ?

Would like to read some feedback/comments about your thoughts on this. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> I mentioned this detail on one of my posts earlier on this thread, but I guess no one commented on it, or noticed it.
> 
> So, let me mention it again.
> 
> The SINE version uses their new very compressed audio format, compared to the audio format they used in their NI Kontakt counterparts of the Berlin Main Orch. Libraries.
> 
> I'm curious how much of what users are noticing in terms of sonic differences, and performance/playability has to do with this detail ?
> 
> Would like to read some feedback/comments about your thoughts on this.
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


On all the 72 pages of this thread... I'm sure at least 10 are yours. 😆


----------



## muziksculp

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> On all the 72 pages of this thread... I'm sure at least 10 are yours. 😆


So, any thoughts about what I just mentioned again ?


----------



## muziksculp

bfreepro said:


> I'm really not trying to be doom and gloom


That's what I feel every time you post something


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

muziksculp said:


> So, any thoughts about what I just mentioned again ?


I'm hearing sonic differences between Kontakt and Sine - not only the much discussed legatos, but also the sustains. I can't really point out what it is, but there is something. But I'm not convinced this audio compression has anything to do with it.


----------



## muziksculp

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I'm hearing sonic differences between Kontakt and Sine - not only the much discussed legatos, but also the sustains. I can't really point out what it is, but there is something. But I'm not convinced this audio compression has anything to do with it.


OK. That's interesting. 

Thanks.


----------



## babylonwaves

Jett Hitt said:


> most of the repetitions patches crashed Logic.


I've just loaded every single instrument in Berlin Woodwinds Sine and played all runs and repetition patches available with random notes while logic 10.7.1 transport was running. I didn't get a single crash.


----------



## Jose7822

The audio compression used should be lossless. That’s how it is with other sample library companies too, so the sound shouldn’t be affected by it. Here’s what OT says about theirs:

“We made a lot of progress with SINE in 2020, and this development doesn’t ever stop.
The latest innovation is SPC—SINE Performance Compression. This completely new format allows a massive increase in performance and much smaller files without compromising sound quality.”

Source (bottom of page): https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/keynote

As for performance, it’s impossible to gauge given that the other compression method is used on a completely different player, Kontakt. Only if we had the chance to compare the different compression algorithms on the same player would this be possible.

The most likely cause for the change in sound quality is that OT reworked the samples when porting them to their SINE player.


----------



## Jett Hitt

babylonwaves said:


> I've just loaded every single instrument in Berlin Woodwinds Sine and played all runs and repetition patches available with random notes while logic 10.7.1 transport was running. I didn't get a single crash.


Hmmmm. . . . I am only running 10.5.1, but that shouldn't make a difference. 

Here is the bizarre part: After Marc posted that everything played fine for him, I thought I would try it again to make sure exactly which ones I had trouble with. I specifically remember playing the triplet repetition in the Oboe 1 and it working this morning, and then I remember immediately trying the one in Flute 2 and it crashing Logic. Almost every triplet repetition patch I played crashed Logic. So I just opened Logic back up, and now I am unable to crash Logic with any of them. WTAF????


----------



## JTB

The only videos posted have been by the first doom and gloom camp. No videos have been posted by the 2nd - it sounds really good camp.
I would be interested to hear a back to back done with WW or strings by someone who considers them to be on par sonically if not better than the Kontakt versions.
We could then establish that it is actually our taste that differs.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I'm thinking of creating a track that corresponds more or less to the BSS arrangement and using that as a kind of basic articulations track, and then creating a set of secondary tracks that contains the additional articulations from BS and the Special Bows. I think I can do this in two instrument tracks, maybe three. And I'll only load the extra tracks when needed. This is how I work with SCS, though I can load everything in one track with that library due to the implementation of UACC KS.


This is similar to what I have been thinking. I usually have all tracks set to Omni and don't mess with channels much, but it looks like I am going to have to do that now. I will be curious to hear about the solution you arrive at.


----------



## bfreepro

So I just noticed also in Studio One Pro 5 (latest version), SINE will crash the entire project ONLY when disabling the instrument. So I load it in and it plays fine, but when I disable it to save the template for later, it crashes the DAW. Every time.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

bfreepro said:


> So I just noticed also in Studio One Pro 5 (latest version), SINE will crash the entire project ONLY when disabling the instrument. So I load it in and it plays fine, but when I disable it to save the template for later, it crashes the DAW. Every time.


It's fine for me on S1 Windows latest everything.


----------



## bfreepro

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> It's fine for me on S1 Windows latest everything.


Windows 11 or 10?


----------



## Mike Fox

G_Erland said:


> No, maybe not…hehe, but here is an analogy: when i bought my first professional camera, i was rather shocked - it had none of the pleasant things that cameras normally have, no autofocus, no stabilization, i cant even delete files from disk via the camera. The logic is that professionals dont want any automatic process to impede control. Ive started to expect this in the audio realm as well, theres no plug and play for me. @bfreepro examples are interesting. Where as i think i prefer the fast notes in Sine, and think maybe the differences otherwise in the strings are down to behavior, some of the woods examples have that odd thing were the room sound seems to stack and you get that accordion-like sound. Those strange hangs or overlaps is really a thing to fix, and i would per now not be sure if that can be done with settings.


I’m curious, what camera was it?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

bfreepro said:


> Windows 11 or 10?


10


----------



## Mike Fox

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I was thinking of you today - do you have Ark 3? There's some mental stuff in there for horror.


Hell yeah! Ark 3 is pretty sick for horror!

I actually used the repetitions from Ark 3 in this track (that i still need to finish).


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Mike Fox said:


> Hell yeah! Ark 3 is pretty sick for horror!
> 
> I actually used the repetitions from Ark 3 in this track (that i still need to finish).



stop scaring me

The quintet is really good - it hides tho. I often forget about it.


----------



## Mike Fox

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> stop scaring me
> 
> The quintet is really good - it hides tho. I often forget about it.


I didn’t even know it had a quintet.


----------



## Zanshin

Picked up BS (sine) and BSS tonight. Both are lovely. I'll probably pick the Character Strings bundle up too at some point too.


----------



## muziksculp

Zanshin said:


> Picked up BS (sine) and BSS tonight. Both are lovely. I'll probably pick the Character Strings bundle up too at some point too.


Congrats ! 

Very Good Choices


----------



## tim727

I'v actually just started looking at BSS. Wasn't even considering it before. Is it possible for anyone to compare/contrast BS, BSS, and CSS? (I own CSS)


----------



## muziksculp

tim727 said:


> I'v actually just started looking at BSS. Wasn't even considering it before. Is it possible for anyone to compare/contrast BS, BSS, and CSS? (I own CSS)


Discussing CSS doesn't belong on the Commercial Section of this forum topic.

Please use Sample Talk section.

THANKS


----------



## Zanshin

muziksculp said:


> Congrats !
> 
> Very Good Choices


The strings felt like safe buys haha. I'm sure the percussion is too, but I don't need that. 

@SimonCharlesHanna 's live demo of the brass, both Kontakt (not enough layers) and Sine (a mess) was eye opening. The woodwinds too (actually Kontakt woodwinds were good but that revive-legacy combo is weird and inconsistent). But bottom line I have brass and woodwinds I am very happy with that will work with the strings.

Loving BS and BSS so far


----------



## muziksculp

I'm sure OT will keep improving the entire Berlin Orch. Main (SINE) , so it's only bound to get better in the world of SINE. Kontakt will stay as is.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> I'v actually just started looking at BSS. Wasn't even considering it before. Is it possible for anyone to compare/contrast BS, BSS


BSS is a bigger section by quite a lot, and with many fewer articulations. You might think fewer articulations is a bad thing, but it really does make it simpler to use in a good way, and it retains a lot of flexibility. But it is a very big band of strings, and with the size comes a certain heft and loss of agility that is not right for everything. BSS is not bad in terms of agility, but it won't maneuver like a small chamber string section and it won't have that detail either. 

Some folks complain about the violins not being expressive and others want molto vibrato added. I think the violins are good, and while a bit more vibrato might be helpful here and there, I wouldn't want to trade the current vibrato for heavier vibrato if it's an either/or. I also think the legato is decent, or at least it accomplishes what I need legato to accomplish. It's not an especially expressive legato, but I don't find that it gets in the way at all. It takes me from one sustain (whichever sustain I choose to attach legato to) to the next. My only real complaint is that the second from top dynamic layer in the violins in the legato sustain is very flat dynamically so you have to either move the modwheel quickly across to the top layer or time the swell with CC11 to help out. It's likely a programming bug but I'm so used to it now that it would be kind of a pain if OT fixed it.

The cellos and basses are exceptional. The violas are excellent, and the violins are very good. And BSS gets along neatly with nearly every library I've paired it with, the one notable exception, ironically enough, being BS Kontakt.

The library still has a lot of bugs. It had one update soon after release and nothing since. I've been able to work around the issues without too much difficulty, but still if you are someone who will be put off by encountering bugs, BSS still has a fair number.

BS is more detailed by comparison and it has a billion more articulations. But I don't especially like the layout of the library for Sine. BS Sine is better than BS Kontakt layout in most respects, but it's still not a good fit out of the box for my workflow. Whereas BSS slotted neatly into my workflow, BS is still a puzzle, and I never could get the Kontakt version integrated into my workflow.

As I mentioned, I didn't like the way BS Kontakt got along with BSS but my early experiments with BS Sine have fared much better. BS brings detail to BSS, as you would expect, and BSS brings heft to BS but also a certain pleasant smudging that we might take to be something like sample bokeh. I should add that I haven't done enough experiments yet to be certain about the compatibility.


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> BSS is a bigger section by quite a lot, and with many fewer articulations. You might think fewer articulations is a bad thing, but it really does make it simpler to use in a good way, and it retains a lot of flexibility. But it is a very big band of strings, and with the size comes a certain heft and loss of agility that is not right for everything. BSS is not bad in terms of agility, but it won't maneuver like a small chamber string section and it won't have that detail either.
> 
> Some folks complain about the violins not being expressive and others want molto vibrato added. I think the violins are good, and while a bit more vibrato might be helpful here and there, I wouldn't want to trade the current vibrato for heavier vibrato if it's an either/or. I also think the legato is decent, or at least it accomplishes what I need legato to accomplish. It's not an especially expressive legato, but I don't find that it gets in the way at all. It takes me from one sustain (whichever sustain I choose to attach legato to) to the next. My only real complaint is that the second from top dynamic layer in the violins in the legato sustain is very flat dynamically so you have to either move the modwheel quickly across to the top layer or time the swell with CC11 to help out. It's likely a programming bug but I'm so used to it now that it would be kind of a pain if OT fixed it.
> 
> The cellos and basses are exceptional. The violas are excellent, and the violins are very good. And BSS gets along neatly with nearly every library I've paired it with, the one notable exception, ironically enough, being BS Kontakt.
> 
> The library still has a lot of bugs. It had one update soon after release and nothing since. I've been able to work around the issues without too much difficulty, but still if you are someone who will be put off by encountering bugs, BSS still has a fair number.
> 
> BS is more detailed by comparison and it has a billion more articulations. But I don't especially like the layout of the library for Sine. BS Sine is better than BS Kontakt layout in most respects, but it's still not a good fit out of the box for my workflow. Whereas BSS slotted neatly into my workflow, BS is still a puzzle, and I never could get the Kontakt version integrated into my workflow.
> 
> As I mentioned, I didn't like the way BS Kontakt got along with BSS but my early experiments with BS Sine have fared much better. BS brings detail to BSS, as you would expect, and BSS brings heft to BS but also a certain pleasant smudging that we might take to be something like sample bokeh. I should add that I haven't done enough experiments yet to be certain about the compatibility.


Thank you, that's a very detailed and helpful reply. I'm at a bit of a crossroads because I think ultimately I prefer a smaller section size, but BS seems so enormous ... and of course it's also significantly more expensive. I guess I have like 3 hours to decide ...


----------



## G_Erland

Mike Fox said:


> I’m curious, what camera was it?


Hehe, the bmpcc4k.


----------



## Mike Fox

G_Erland said:


> Hehe, the bmpcc4k.


Ah! I’ve always wanted to try one of those.


----------



## holywilly

Somehow I wanna request a feature of Berlin strings, let the vibrato variations cross fade-able instead of switching them. 

It will be awesome if we can cross fade from NV to strong vibrato smoothly.


----------



## Jose7822

holywilly said:


> Somehow I wanna request a feature of Berlin strings, let the vibrato variations cross fade-able instead of switching them.
> 
> It will be awesome if we can cross fade from NV to strong vibrato smoothly.


That’s already possible with Polymaps.


----------



## jbuhler

Jose7822 said:


> That’s already possible with Polymaps.


Possible but not very practical since you can’t lock polymaps.


----------



## Living Fossil

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I am very disappointed that OT is monitoring this thread but refuses to address the ability for SINE owners to download the Kontakt version if desired - EVEN FOR A FEE.


What i think is additionally frustrating is the denial of obvious bugs.

I reported the bug that after "purge" hitting one single note not only reloads this entire articulation (and not only the required samples, as was stated on their website) but every single articulation.

Instead of a substantial answer, what they did is changing the wording on their website.

At the point when i bought the library, it stated "required samples will be reloaded"; now it states
"required instruments".
which is especially bad style, since it gives them the space to say: "yes, an "instrument" means every single sample of every single articulation".

That leaves a terribly bad impression.

Changing the descpription of what you sell after you've sold it is unbelievable.
Nevertheless, i have a screenshot of the former version from their homepage.

Providing the fooled users with the Kontakt version for the timeframe they need to fix this bug seems the only acceptable solution.

I hope @OrchestralTools have the backbone to take responsibility for their faults instead of going the denial route.


----------



## Jose7822

jbuhler said:


> Possible but not very practical since you can’t lock polymaps.


Right. Perhaps we can have both features, but making Polymaps lockable and able to work across groups would solve so many user requests.


----------



## lucor

Living Fossil said:


> What i think is additionally frustrating is the denial of obvious bugs.
> 
> I reported the bug that after "purge" hitting one single note not only reloads this entire articulation (and not only the required samples, as was stated on their website) but every single articulation.
> 
> Instead of a substantial answer, what they did is changing the wording on their website.
> 
> At the point when i bought the library, it stated "required samples will be downloaded"; now it states
> "required instruments".
> which is especially bad style, since it gives them the space to say: "yes, an "instrument" means every single sample of every single articulation".
> 
> That leaves a terribly bad impression.
> 
> Changing the descpription of what you sell after you've sold it is unbelievable.
> Nevertheless, i have a screenshot of the former version from their homepage.
> 
> Providing the fooled users with the Kontakt version for the timeframe they need to fix this bug seems the only acceptable solution.
> 
> I hope @OrchestralTools have the backbone to take responsibility for their faults instead of going the denial route.


Well, they also marketed their original BWW as naturally 'balanced' with the rest of the Berlin Series on their website, which was a complete lie (a Solo Flute from BWW was basically just as loud as the whole Violins section in Berlin Strings). And they 'fixed' that obviously false statement by releasing Berlin Woodwinds Revive, so in the end customers that bought the original BWW under the assumption of getting a balanced Woodwind library had to pay another $200 to get what was promised in the first library. 

(Not to mention that I find their whole claim to have a 'Balanced Orchestra' kind of bogus anyway, considering that they haven't even balanced the individual instruments' articulations properly, where volumes sometimes are all over the place.)

This kind of false advertising, paired with all the QC issues, slow-to-now updates and high premium prices without any refunds (which they have no excuse for anymore, now that they have their own player) is the reason why I've become very hesitant of buying anything from them. It's so bad, that I don't even want to spend 147€ on BSS, which normally would be a no-brainer.

I really hope they will change their way of doing things, but until I see some actual change in their behaviour I'm pretty sure I won't buy anything from them again.


----------



## Evans

Living Fossil said:


> At the point when i bought the library, it stated "required samples will be reloaded"; now it states
> "required instruments".
> which is especially bad style, since it gives them the space to say: "yes, an "instrument" means every single sample of every single articulation".


I think they make a lot of casual mistakes combined with a lot of forgetfulness among competing priorities. This is the same company that had Mic Merge touted as a major feature on the BSS page itself for about a year, all during which that same feature was broken for BSS.

Of course, when I brought it to their attention that perhaps they should remove that text snippet from the BSS page, they kept it on.

Not that I really use Mic Merge, but don't advertise what you don't have.


----------



## savagedog

lucor said:


> Well, they also marketed their original BWW as naturally 'balanced' with the rest of the Berlin Series on their website


As far as I know Berlin Woodwinds was their first Berlin Collection... so don't know if you are right with this...


----------



## lucor

savagedog said:


> As far as I know Berlin Woodwinds was their first Berlin Collection... so don't know if you are right with this...


No, I'm 100% certain about it (if I dig deep enough I might even find a screenshot of their website from that time).
But it also says the same thing in their manual as you can see here, which should be proof enough (page 11):


http://www.midisets.com/resources/documents/Berlin_Woodwinds_Main.pdf


----------



## jadedsean

Evans said:


> I think they make a lot of casual mistakes combined with a lot of forgetfulness among competing priorities. This is the same company that had Mic Merge touted as a major feature on the BSS page itself for about a year, all during which that same feature was broken for BSS.
> 
> Of course, when I brought it to their attention that perhaps they should remove that text snippet from the BSS page, they kept it on.
> 
> Not that I really use Mic Merge, but don't advertise what you don't have.


What? So mic merge does not work? I just bought this library after watching the walkthrough in which they talk about mic merging as away to help system resources, that is really bad. When you buy a library you buy it as advertised. There should be some sort of statment for customers to let us know that this feature is not funtioning and requires an update. Perhaps then customers can make informed decsion wheater to buy or not. Judging by this thread OT are not so inclined to update their libraies. This is shocking, @OrchestralTools, can you please comment on these issues?


----------



## muziksculp

jadedsean said:


> What? So mic merge does not work? I just bought this library after watching the walkthrough in which they talk about mic merging as away to help system resources, that is really bad. When you buy a library you buy it as advertised. There should be some sort of statment for customers to let us know that this feature is not funtioning and requires an update. Perhaps then customers can make informed decsion wheater to buy or not. Judging by this thread OT are not so inclined to update their libraies. This is shocking, @OrchestralTools, can you please comment on these issues?


It was broken for almost a year, but they finally fixed it via the latest SINE update.


----------



## Getsumen

savagedog said:


> As far as I know Berlin Woodwinds was their first Berlin Collection... so don't know if you are right with this...


Revive was recorded in like what, 2017? So it's a bit more modern than Berlin Strings at least. Unsure when BB was done


----------



## Living Fossil

Evans said:


> I think they make a lot of casual mistakes combined with a lot of forgetfulness among competing priorities. This is the same company that had Mic Merge touted as a major feature on the BSS page itself for about a year, all during which that same feature was broken for BSS.


Ok, i didn't know about the mic merge failure.

In this case, before buying the Woodwinds i was evaluating the pros and cons of both, the Kontakt and the Sine version. Having seen "Purge" mentioned, i decided to go with the Sine version.

Now, what is shocking about the new wording on their homepage, is the fact that it leaves open their future intension to add the "Purge" function.

If they write:

"After Purge Sine reloads only the needed samples. [this feature isn't advailable at the moment but will added a.s.a.p."

it would be a statement i could live with.

So, by changing the promised product _afterwards_, they enter a legal dubious grey area. I don't think it's a good idea to do this. However, I'm no lawyer and don't know such a case would be handled legally. I just think, from a developer's perspective it's always a smarter thing to keep the relation intact. Since, as a customer, buying libraries is something that's a part of maintaining my professional infrastructure.
So, @OrchestralTools – in all sympathy – I think you should think about the strategy you intend to pursue.


----------



## savagedog

Getsumen said:


> Revive was recorded in like what, 2017? So it's a bit more modern than Berlin Strings at least. Unsure when BB was done


We talked about the "orignal" Berlin Woodwinds, and it was the first of berlin series 2012 or 13


----------



## jadedsean

muziksculp said:


> It was broken for almost a year, but they finally fixed it via the latest SINE update.


Okay great, I nearly had a panic attack there, but still almost a year to update this, it seems OT are more concentrated on developing new products which is fine but not at the risk of sacrificing their other libraries.


----------



## jbuhler

lucor said:


> This kind of false advertising, paired with all the QC issues, slow-to-now updates and high premium prices without any refunds (which they have no excuse for anymore, now that they have their own player) is the reason why I've become very hesitant of buying anything from them. It's so bad, that I don't even want to spend 147€ on BSS, which normally would be a no-brainer.


They also make very interesting libraries like the Times, Tallinn, Mirroire, etc. And in general, I don't find the QC issues are worse than other developers, though OT is slower to fix things.



Evans said:


> I think they make a lot of casual mistakes combined with a lot of forgetfulness among competing priorities.


This strikes me as accurate, especially the forgetfulness among competing priorities. Historically I think that was largely due to being understaffed. And maintenance has not historically been a priority at all. It was what concerned me most when I heard they were developing their own player. Players require a lot of maintenance due to the changing computer landscape, and I wasn't convinced that OT understood the challenges. Sine has so far turned out much better than I feared, but development and maintenance hasn't exactly been speedy, and it's easy enough to see how they have cut corners on functionality. 

It does seem like one thing they have learned from the Berlin series on Kontakt was that it was too complicated for many users to use well. And the Sine implementation of many of the libraries has improved that aspect quite a lot. But I do find a lot of strange decisions with Sine, and I am still not entirely sure what they see as the optimal workflow for using something like BS Sine. I'm not sure what they see as the optimal workflow for using polymap. Since they don't put out many walkthroughs that show DAW usage, you are really left having to reverse engineer their concept of a user and then work to conform your workflow to that. They have also seemed to conclude that choice means complexity and so have curtailed a lot of choice that was available in Kontakt for the simplicity of no or reduced choice. But that's not really how it works, and the ability to tweak in the right way can actually be an agent of simplicity. I think of one of the great innovations of Sine, the assigning of legatos. You could do this in Capsule too, but it is slicker and more understandable in Sine. At the same time, though, the inability to work with the legato in any respect other than assigning it and controlling the volume, not being able to select the speed selection or velocity selection points for the adaptive legato is a bit of no choice that makes the Sine implementation harder and more complicated to use not simpler and easier. I'd really like OT to learn that rigidity is not simplicity, and Sine is unfortunately often very rigid.


----------



## jbuhler

jadedsean said:


> Okay great, I nearly had a panic attack there, but still almost a year to update this, it seems OT are more concentrated on developing new products which is fine but not at the risk of sacrificing their other libraries.


I think there was a deeper issue going on with Sine and that was the reason for the delay. They had a beta version ready last spring, but it took more than 6 months to go from that to the release version. And OT was very opaque about why it was taking so long, which was the really frustrating thing. OT often offers legal reasoning for why they can't be more forthcoming. But other developers manage it much better, so a certain reticence also seems baked into the company's DNA.


----------



## lucor

savagedog said:


> We talked about the "orignal" Berlin Woodwinds, and it was the first of berlin series 2012 or 13


The manual I posted _is _from the original Berlin Woodwinds. When they ported that over to CAPSULE along with Berlin Strings, they had every opportunity to fullfill that promise of a balanced orchestra, but didn't.


jbuhler said:


> They also make very interesting libraries like the Times, Tallinn, Mirroire, etc. And in general, I don't find the QC issues are worse than other developers, though OT is slower to fix things.


Sorry, but how exactly does 'making interesting libraries' excuse lying to customers, bad QC and bad history of updating their libraries?! 

And from my experience their QC is the worst of every developer I've ever bought something from. And what makes it worse is that one of their frequent QC issues (badly balanced articulations) is advertised like this:


----------



## Evans

lucor said:


> And from my experience their QC is the worst of every developer I've ever bought something from. And what makes it worse is that one of their frequent QC issues (badly balanced articulations) is advertised like this:


Speaking of, did they fix the absurd volume difference for the Bell Up horn patches? Those showed a clear lack of testing. There was nothing subjective about it.


----------



## jbuhler

lucor said:


> Sorry, but how exactly does 'making interesting libraries' excuse lying to customers, bad QC and bad history of updating their libraries?!


Your point was addressing the large expensive libraries OT makes like the Berlin series. They also make these more niche libraries that are priced closer to what other developer's libraries are (though they don't go on sale regularly), so the point about paying big bucks and getting low QC doesn't really hold in those cases. OT is quite good at this. They are neat little libraries, and I use these far more than I have used BS, even though I've owned BS far, far longer. These libraries also tend to have many fewer QC issues because they are far less complex, with fewer dynamic layers in particular to manage.

I really don't find OT's QC is worse than most developers on release. Sample libraries are complicated with lots and lots of moving pieces, so there are lots of places for things to go wrong. I do find that OT has historically not been much interested in fixing things beyond an absolute minimum. And I absolutely agree OT needs to be more careful about their ad copy, especially if they are going to be prickly when it is pointed out that they aren't delivering what they promised. But ad copy is ad copy, and I guess I've gotten to the point that I don't take it as anything but that. That doesn't excuse the inaccuracies to be sure, especially with an unreturnable product. 

I will say that the response on the purge function that @Living Fossil reports is highly alarming. And that one does concern me greatly. Beyond refusing to acknowledge this issue, OT has implemented the purge function in a way that is completely nonsensical, in the sense that i can't imagine a situation where the current implementation could be useful to anyone. It's another bit, like polymap, where I just can't even understand how OT came up with the scheme to implement the feature the way they did.


----------



## Casiquire

lucor said:


> It's so bad, that I don't even want to spend 147€ on BSS, which normally would be a no-brainer.


 Where are you getting that price from?

And i think it's a huge stretch to say their QC is the worst of any dev, and that all their articulations are out of balance. I might have to adjust an articulation here or there in specific circumstances but that's pretty normal and also subjective, and in all of my playing with BS in SINE the last week or two I've found one bug (the top note or two of first violin espressivo longs play the wrong pitch; i reported it and it should be an easy fix.) Everything else is smooth and well balanced.

SINE has a ways to go, but the samples coming out of it are great


----------



## Jett Hitt

Crashing Update: As I detailed above, almost all of the repetitions patches would crash Logic. This happened for an entire evening and the next morning, and it happened consistently with patches from all libraries except for BS. (Since then, someone else has reported having the problem with BS and Cubase.) Occasionally, I would have a crash from a runs patch, but not consistently. I left for the day and returned to see that Babylonwaves had tested all of the patches in Logic and had no difficulties. I then began testing them again. All last evening and this morning, Logic has not crashed one time. I can't explain this. I changed absolutely nothing on my system except I installed a copy of CRP.

For now, everything seems to be working as was intended. This is not to say that all patches are working as intended, i.e. Triplet repetitions in Violin 1 or Fortepiano in the Bassoon 1. Lots of random notes seem to have artifacts as if the wrong sample or two samples are being triggered. If I had to, I think that I could use it at this point, but I still think that it is a hot mess in its present state.


----------



## Zanshin

Casiquire said:


> Where are you getting that price from?


I think there was a glitch at the beginning of the sale where the crossgrade and 50% were both applied.


----------



## G_Erland

lucor said:


> The manual I posted _is _from the original Berlin Woodwinds. When they ported that over to CAPSULE along with Berlin Strings, they had every opportunity to fullfill that promise of a balanced orchestra, but didn't.
> 
> Sorry, but how exactly does 'making interesting libraries' excuse lying to customers, bad QC and bad history of updating their libraries?!
> 
> And from my experience their QC is the worst of every developer I've ever bought something from. And what makes it worse is that one of their frequent QC issues (badly balanced articulations) is advertised like this:


In a jovial and naturally inquisitive tone: For my money, i replaced a 400£ full choir with the female choir from Tallinn in a track today, and two tracks of evolving textures from the same library with simple bass harmonics from the bs extensions. As I see it, the quality and usability on offer here is extraordinary, unless there is some platinum ore i am unaware of…ive never tried vsl as I dont like the sound. What establishes a justified context for such complaint? Where is the comparatively perfect library? Who is offering refunds? I believe the context right now is a relatively small company is advancing (or trying to either way you look at it) technology. There are single instruments now. Its a watershed moment. Its brand new and shiny. Its obviously taken great resources to set up. Prior to this no developer, for me, had established anything that would lead me into greater expectations.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> Crashing Update: As I detailed above, almost all of the repetitions patches would crash Logic. This happened for an entire evening and the next morning, and it happened consistently with patches from all libraries except for BS. (Since then, someone else has reported having the problem with BS and Cubase.) Occasionally, I would have a crash from a runs patch, but not consistently. I left for the day and returned to see that Babylonwaves had tested all of the patches in Logic and had no difficulties. I then began testing them again. All last evening and this morning, Logic has not crashed one time. I can't explain this. I changed absolutely nothing on my system except I installed a copy of CRP.
> 
> For now, everything seems to be working as was intended. This is not to say that all patches are working as intended, i.e. Triplet repetitions in Violin 1 or Fortepiano in the Bassoon 1. Lots of random notes seem to have artifacts as if the wrong sample or two samples are being triggered. If I had to, I think that I could use it at this point, but I still think that it is a hot mess in its present state.


CRP as magic Sine elixir?

I have had periodic episodes like this with Sine mysteriously giving me problems and then equally mysteriously those problems going away. I've found that contacting support is a good way to have a problem disappear. Not that support does anything, just that the problem stops manifesting so you end up not having anything to definitive to report to support.


----------



## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> I think there was a glitch at the beginning of the sale where the crossgrade and 50% were both applied.


That was my impression too.

I've been swapping articulations in Berlin Strings all morning to see which fit a piece best and the only ones that haven't matched up perfectly have been the ones that aren't intended to (or can't) be used in certain dynamics anyway, so were only recorded in f and ff, for example.


----------



## axb312

Was listening to the walkthrough for Metropolis Ark 1 on Sine, couldn't figure out - have the sloppy short timings been fixed?


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> That was my impression too.
> 
> I've been swapping articulations in Berlin Strings all morning to see which fit a piece best and the only ones that haven't matched up perfectly have been the ones that aren't intended to (or can't) be used in certain dynamics anyway, so were only recorded in f and ff, for example.


Are you saying you are not hearing any difference in the sound or that all the articulations from Kontakt were ported to Sine?


----------



## Jose7822

Man, am I glad to be wrong!!

Earlier in this thread, I said that Studio One couldn’t switch articulations between MIDI channels. Originally Studio One 5 didn’t have this feature, but somehow I missed the information on an update that brought it to Sound Variations (the equivalent to Cubase’s Expression Maps).

Apparently Studio One 5.3 introduced the ability to change MIDI channels via Sound Variations but, since I‘ve never had the need for it until recently (given the way BS handles articulation grouping) I didn’t search for it before. I still haven’t tried it yet, but I should be able to use BS with one track per Instrument in Studio One!!


----------



## muziksculp

Yes, changing SINE articulations via Midi Channel, using Studio One Pro 5 is a good approach. I'm going to test it, and devise a systematic way of doing this.


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> Are you saying you are not hearing any difference in the sound or that all the articulations from Kontakt were ported to Sine?


I only just got Berlin Strings like a week ago so I'm the wrong person to ask about that particular comparison. But i did a side by side with the winds and found that there wasn't one sound that was superior across the board. I didn't notice a major difference in overall tone. The biggest differences i noticed were in legato patches where the SINE transitions are sometimes less clear, but just turning them up in SINE helps. And sometimes i actually feel like the room impression during transitions is better in SINE. For me, there's a lot of give and take


----------



## bfreepro

axb312 said:


> Was listening to the walkthrough for Metropolis Ark 1 on Sine, couldn't figure out - have the sloppy short timings been fixed?


No lol. There’s another thread about this as well https://vi-control.net/community/threads/metropolis-ark-1-stumbling-notes.118005/


----------



## Chungus

So, I decided to SINE ports for a mock-up I'm working on (Not my own composition, in case this is mistaken for Staypufting.  ) And... jesus christ _what_ happened here? First example is the V1s on SINE, the second on Kontakt. Identical articulations, mic mix set to 0db on close, -4 on tree for both.

The SINE version sounds like it trips over itself on the fast passages, and bounces across the stereo field like something fierce. There is _some _of the latter issue in the Kontakt version, but it's not nearly as pronounced.


----------



## Zanshin

Chungus said:


> So, I decided to SINE ports for a mock-up I'm working on (Not my own composition, in case this is mistaken for Staypufting.  ) And... jesus christ _what_ happened here? First example is the V1s on SINE, the second on Kontakt. Identical articulations, mic mix set to 0db on close, -4 on tree for both.
> 
> The SINE version sounds like it trips over itself on the fast passages, and bounces across the stereo field like something fierce. There is _some _of the latter issue in the Kontakt version, but it's not nearly as pronounced.


I experienced something similar when I was playing it live last night. It seemed to go away when I forced a certain legato type, - i.e. make it "fingered" for all speeds and velocities. It was late and I was exhausted though, so perhaps I was just imagining it to be better lol.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Chungus said:


> So, I decided to SINE ports for a mock-up I'm working on (Not my own composition, in case this is mistaken for Staypufting.  ) And... jesus christ _what_ happened here? First example is the V1s on SINE, the second on Kontakt. Identical articulations, mic mix set to 0db on close, -4 on tree for both.
> 
> The SINE version sounds like it trips over itself on the fast passages, and bounces across the stereo field like something fierce. There is _some _of the latter issue in the Kontakt version, but it's not nearly as pronounced.


I'm so depressed I didn't buy the Kontakt versions. And so angry that @OrchestralTools has refused to acknowledge or allow SINE customers from download the Kontakt versions if they choose. A very poor taste in my mouth after a massive investment in this company.


----------



## Chungus

As a further note, I didn't copy the MIDI data from Kontakt to Sine. Rather, it was the other way around. And Kontakt still smashed it. lmao



Zanshin said:


> I experienced something similar when I was playing it live last night. It seemed to go away when I forced a certain legato type, - i.e. make it "fingered" for all speeds and velocities. It was late and I was exhausted though, so perhaps I was just imagining it to be better lol.


Just tried it. It somewhat mitigated the ping-pong stereo image, but the fast lines still trips up.

Welp. Time to sent OT another report!



ALittleNightMusic said:


> I'm so depressed I didn't buy the Kontakt versions. And so angry that @OrchestralTools has refused to acknowledge or allow SINE customers from download the Kontakt versions if they choose. A very poor taste in my mouth after a massive investment in this company.


Yeah, I feel you. Things in their current state are - frankly - disgraceful.


----------



## muziksculp

@Chungus ,

I hope OT will fix these issues soon with the SINE version. I'm also curious what they will reply to you once they read your report. 

The SINE version sounds quite sluggish when you are switching articulations. The Kontakt version handled that much better. How many articulations did you switch between in your demo ? 

Thanks.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Living Fossil said:


> So, by changing the promised product _afterwards_, they enter a legal dubious grey area


Definitely not a gray area here in Australia. That is illegal - here at least.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I created a full orchestral OT template this afternoon. I was pleasantly surprised that it came in at about 43GB. Full woodwinds, brass, and percussion combined with BS, SB, and BSS. I didn't load absolutely everything, but everything that I would use 90% of the time. 59 tracks with one mic position, and a few loaded with two positions (All the SB patches).

I assume with mic merge that this will stay roughly the same. I was forced to use channels, which isn't the norm for me, but it was easy enough. I had to put each string instrument on five different tracks (channels), and that is the most aggravating part. Now about those keyswitches. . . ahem. . . .I am not sure if I can stand to make them.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I created a full orchestral OT template this afternoon. I was pleasantly surprised that it came in at about 43GB. Full woodwinds, brass, and percussion combined with BS, SB, and BSS. I didn't load absolutely everything, but everything that I would use 90% of the time. 59 tracks with one mic position, and a few loaded with two positions (All the SB patches).
> 
> I assume with mic merge that this will stay roughly the same. I was forced to use channels, which isn't the norm for me, but it was easy enough. I had to put each string instrument on five different tracks (channels), and that is the most aggravating part. Now about those keyswitches. . . ahem. . . .I am not sure if I can stand to make them.


I'm surprised (but delighted) to hear that you were able to load everything in just 43GB. Default DFD?


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> This strikes me as accurate, especially the forgetfulness among competing priorities.


I think OT is enjoying a *really strong* benefit of the doubt from you here. If I started a company, sold products at premium prices, made objectively false statements on my website that misrepresented my product (for instance the absolutely *egregious* mic merge BSS thing ... I mean a year? Really?), was then slow to acknowledge and fix issues (if I did so at all) and then my customers viewed me as merely "forgetful", I would consider myself the luckiest person in the world. (This is honestly not a dig at you so please don't take it as such. I just think though that people need to be a little harder on them because some of these things are just inexcusable!)

No one is saying that ALL of their products have bad QC, but Miroire or Tallinn being the pinnacles of sampling library perfection don't excuse many of the negative business/customer relations practices that OT has exhibited. There is never an excuse for misrepresenting your products. *Period*.

Edit: To be clear I have not personally been adversely affected by these issues, thankfully. But I very nearly was (almost bought BB on SINE without doing research first) and I feel terrible for the people, like some in this thread, that bought the SINE versions and are now deeply upset. I would personally be incensed if I were in that position.


----------



## Chungus

muziksculp said:


> @Chungus ,
> 
> I hope OT will fix these issues soon with the SINE version. I'm also curious what they will reply to you once they read your report.
> 
> The SINE version sounds quite sluggish when you are switching articulations. The Kontakt version handled that much better. How many articulations did you switch between in your demo ?
> 
> Thanks.


Six artics were used. In order of appearance: Portato short, sus+leg, sus accented, stacc, sus+leg, port short, port long, trills accented, sus+leg, port short, sus+leg, stacc, port long, sus accented.

If you're interested in hearing it in context, I can put up an example with every SINE instrument used in the track.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> I think OT is enjoying a *really strong* benefit of the doubt from you here. If I started a company, sold products at premium prices, made objectively false statements on my website that misrepresented my product (for instance the absolutely *egregious* mic merge BSS thing ... I mean a year? Really?), was then slow to acknowledge and fix issues (if I did so at all) and then my customers viewed me as merely "forgetful", I would consider myself the luckiest person in the world.
> 
> No one is saying that ALL of their products have bad QC, but Miroire or Tallinn being the pinnacles of sampling library perfection don't excuse many of the negative business/customer relations practices that OT has exhibited. There is never an excuse for misrepresenting your products. *Period*.


I wouldn't call Tallinn or Miroire pinnacles of sampling library perfection—I only have Tallinn and it definitely has issues with the timing of the syllables in the choir for instance—but these libraries don't have the issues that the Berlin series has had, most likely because they are far simpler, usually no more than two dynamic layers, which means having to attend to only one crossfade per patch.

If you believe what you are saying about OT, you really ought not do any business with OT. If I believed what you stated, that the company is fundamentally dishonest, I certainly would not do further business with them. But I don't believe it. I believe they have historically tried to do too much with too few people, and that has caused them to make a lot of mistakes.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> I'm surprised (but delighted) to hear that you were able to load everything in just 43GB. Default DFD?


I didn't adjust anything, hence the reason the spot mics loaded for SB I guess. The Mains and BSS just loaded with the tree. So I could probably trim a bit off of this by disabling the spot mics. I am not particularly savvy about mic positions, and I wish that this came with a default mix like the Jake Jackson stuff in BBCSO.


----------



## AEF

Casiquire said:


> I only just got Berlin Strings like a week ago so I'm the wrong person to ask about that particular comparison. But i did a side by side with the winds and found that there wasn't one sound that was superior across the board. I didn't notice a major difference in overall tone. The biggest differences i noticed were in legato patches where the SINE transitions are sometimes less clear, but just turning them up in SINE helps. And sometimes i actually feel like the room impression during transitions is better in SINE. For me, there's a lot of give and take


Once again, please show us.

The folks who have complaints have shown us examples.

The OT defenders curiously never show any examples…


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> But if a new OT lib comes out and everyone on VIC raves about it, I'll feel sufficiently confident to purchase it. That's because I have faith in VIC. I don't have faith in OT.


I can't remember the last library everyone raved about, especially a library that costs any kind of money. The reception of things like Performance Samples and Tokyo Scoring Strings has been mostly positive, but those threads also have their detractors. 

Weird that you'd want to do business with a company you believe is fundamentally dishonest. But I still buy things through Amazon, so I guess I'm one to talk.


----------



## G_Erland

AEF said:


> Once again, please show us.
> 
> The folks who have complaints have shown us examples.
> 
> The OT defenders curiously never show any examples…


At least for me getting a good result takes a long time, with any library, and its quite a different thing posting something saying this sound great…rather than pointing out something that needs work. Or are you just saying post a simple legato line? Also, quite a few who now got the sine version will never have the kontakt version, like me, so comparisons are not possible or anyway a moot point of sorts..


----------



## ism

tim727 said:


> I think OT is enjoying a *really strong* benefit of the doubt from you here. If I started a company, sold products at premium prices, made objectively false statements on my website that misrepresented my product (for instance the absolutely *egregious* mic merge BSS thing ... I mean a year? Really?), was then slow to acknowledge and fix issues (if I did so at all) and then my customers viewed me as merely "forgetful", I would consider myself the luckiest person in the world. (This is honestly not a dig at you so please don't take it as such. I just think though that people need to be a little harder on them because some of these things are just inexcusable!)



Here a theory of another dynamic I feel might be at work here. 

When the initial Kontakt version came out, there were plenty of issues, but the amazingness of the library was all very new, and these sorts of issues were held in people's expectations in contrast to everything that the libs got right. 

Wheres releasing on Sine, there's some technical benefit (I really do like the Sine workflow), and maybe, at least arguably some musical benefit. But compared to the initial brilliance of experience the Berlin libraries for the first time, it's really only going to be incremental improvements, and only on top of some changes and frictions and bugs that are endemic and completely inevitable in such a major engineering deployment. 

Yet the brilliance of everything that these libraries do really, really well is also build into the expectations of at least most of the people talking about issues on this thread. Which, again, at least arguably, causes a cascade effect. 

I'm fairly new to the OT rabbit hole, and I'm genuinely grateful for everyone on this thread reporting and detailing these issues. 

But honestly, compared to the amazing spaces of musicality these OT libraries are adding to my library, none of these issues bother my particularly (at least not yet). And none seem out of like with what I think are realistic expectations of think kind of an enormous platform migration. 

Of course, I also think it would be great it OT would fix bugs more quickly. But honestly, they're at worst middling (and at best middling) compared to other companies.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> It _is_ interesting that to my knowledge this thread does not have even one example of someone showing something sounding better in SINE (to be clear, I'm sure that some things probably are better in spots) ... but that being said, I feel like the onus is always on the person complaining in this scenario. I do feel though that for prospective buyers to have as balanced of a perspective as possible, it would be ideal for someone here to show some examples of things being better in SINE.


Look at the discourse in these threads and you will have your answer as to why no one is posting positive or even neutral examples. Who wants to fight this shit? You have to be a hell of a masochist.

@Heinrik's legato video showed several examples that I thought sounded superior in the Sine version. Of course, he was accused of cherry picking his examples. As I said, what would anyone get out of posting except grief and being called a shill for OT? 

It takes time to learn a library well, and the differences in the libraries are mostly very subtle, so most bits sound similar enough to be within the range of taste. The comparison of the Sine and Kontakt version of that trumpet 2 example where the Sine trumpet 1 had bad issues is very typical of the differences between the libraries, at least that's my experience with BS, which is the only one I have. Then too we aren't generally picking through the Kontakt versions finding all the issues with it and turning to the Sine version to see if it handles those better. Few want to admit that the Kontakt versions have some serious issues too, and the Kontakt version wouldn't fare all that well if it was the library being released now and Sine was the original. 



tim727 said:


> But compare for a moment the reaction to BB on SINE vs the release of CSB. There's a very clear difference in general sentiment



I think the Berlin Brass here are a special problem because, with the addition of the new dynamic layer, they are quite different instruments from the Kontakt version. The legatos in the FF layer have issues of their own of course, but adding them into the library seems to have introduced knock on effects in the programming of the other layers as well. It doesn't sound like the update came close to addressing the issues. Still some folks are saying that they are quite useable even with the problems. Of course others say they are deleting them from their SSDs after having encountered one issue or another. I actually trust those who are saying they are having success working around the issues; mostly because that's been my experience with many VIs over the years—that workarounds can usually be found. But also that a library will reveal its potential to you the more you sit with it.


----------



## ism

tim727 said:


> I see your argument, and actually don't really disagree with it per se. For me though it's mostly a question of _transparency_ and _maintaining customer trust_.
> 
> Having a couple relatively minor bugs in one instrument in a library is one thing, but something like the BSS mic merge thing is a very different matter (I know that they already addressed that but I still point it out because it suggests a *pattern* of very poor customer facing behavior, a pattern which is continued into this present BF debacle). OT needs to start placing a premium on representing their libs accurately on their website (i.e. don't leave patently untrue claims on their website for months or years on end) and they also need to start making sure that they take care of their customers when their customers have gotten the (very) short end of the stick from them.
> 
> The form that the latter should take at this moment in time is for them to provide either (1) a refund to anyone who bought any of the SINE mains and is disappointed with the product, or (2) a free crossgrade for those people to the Kontakt version. If they would at least come out and do that, then no one who made a purchase during this sale (only to be very negatively surprised) would be "screwed". That to me would be the first and most obvious step for them to save some face here.
> 
> I think that a lot of the people defending them have one key thing in common: they do not fall into the camp of someone who bought a SINE main and was *sorely disappointed* with the quality. That is an important point, because there are many people who bought a SINE main and although they may notice some issues they are ultimately still pleased. For these people it's very easy to sit back and say "well I know there are some issues but it was a big undertaking and the library is still usable so cut them some slack". The problem though is that those people are not sitting there festering in a stew of disdain over feeling like they were duped into buying a "premium" product that they now either can't use to suit their needs, or can use but only with significant and time-consuming workarounds that produce a far inferior result anyway. Just food for thought.


I don't necessarily disagree with your argument either - because of course bugs erode trust, failure to deliver on promises erodes trust

But my argument is one of proportion. Previously a lot of the kinds of bugs we're seeing were, effectively, handled by a huge NI Kontakt team, now they're handled in house by the Sine team. Sample playing platforms are a hugely complex engineering endeavour, and honestly, the number of bugs we seen seems pretty reasonable to me, and none of them are showstoppers.

But also, I'd wonder about the proportionality of this:



tim727 said:


> they also need to start making sure that they take care of their customers when their customers have gotten the (very) short end of the stick from them.



Because in addition to the annoyance of these (non showstopper) bugs, we as customers get this fabulous functionality of what they *can* do well, which is a lot. So I just think that "very short end of the stick" is an overstatement, if you consider the functionality that we do get from these libraries - and at half their previous price, in that they've only been on 50% sale twice ever.

So I'm not trying to defend bugs, or the failure to fix bugs. But if we were going from not having OT libraries to having the sine versions, I think lots of us would be over the moon to have this new space of musicality open to the palette of the sample library world (in addition to some polite discussion about bugs and limitations, and sweet spots and what happens when you stray from sweet spots).

As it is, it's a bit like all the bitterness over the Spitfire player UI, which sure, makes some dubious decisions for most of us here, but is still only about 1% of the experience of actually using the actual library, so even if it's 50% worse than Kontakt, it only makes the library 0.5% worse. 

These libraries are fabulous, absolutely best in class, and able to open spaces in our palettes that we simply wouldn't have otherwise. Even if sine if 50% worse that Kontakt (and I'd argue that, on balance, it's more like 50% better, although of course ymmv), in that the really UX depends 99% on what happens between my fingers and the keyboard, I think that some of the (otherwise useful) discussion of issues is wildly disproportionate. 



Also:


jbuhler said:


> Who wants to fight this shit? You have to be a hell of a masochist.


Yeah. sigh.


----------



## tim727

@jbuhler I think we agree on many points but disagree on a number of others over which we will not come to a resolution. So I'm happy to leave it at that and cease the back and forth. 

There is of course no ill will on my part towards you (you have btw provided some very helpful and insightful comments in the last few days which helped me with a couple of my purchasing decisions) or anyone else here. I appreciate this forum greatly and hope it continues to be a medium through which composers and hobbyists alike can gather and exchange ideas and a common love for VIs and music in general.

Cheers,
Tim


----------



## lettucehat

jbuhler said:


> Look at the discourse in these threads and you will have your answer as to why no one is posting positive or even neutral examples. Who wants to fight this shit? You have to be a hell of a masochist.
> 
> @Heinrik's legato video showed several examples that I thought sounded superior in the Sine version. Of course, he was accused of cherry picking his examples. As I said, what would anyone get out of posting except grief and being called a shill for OT?


You and a decent amount of other people seem to have limitless patience for coming in and "fighting this shit" verbally, so I don't see the big leap in posting examples. Like why is it so self-evident why no one posts positive examples when they've been happy to post "I think it sounds fine" for a couple weeks now? I don't care at this point, sale's over, but you say it would be masochism to post examples while writing paragraph after paragraph contributing to the debate (nothing wrong with that, I spend a lot of time here too).


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

jbuhler said:


> Look at the discourse in these threads and you will have your answer as to why no one is posting positive or even neutral examples. Who wants to fight this shit? You have to be a hell of a masochist.


I don't think that's fair. For example, I did post a mockup using Berlin Brass SINE and was pleased by it in general - but that doesn't take away from the bugs that folks have posted about that are clearly evident - or from some of OT's rather confounding policies / general lack of response to very real concerns. There's no "fighting this shit" - these libraries have many good aspects, but they also have issues as does OT's approach to sales (and marketing).


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

lettucehat said:


> You and a decent amount of other people seem to have limitless patience for coming in and "fighting this shit" verbally, so I don't see the big leap in posting examples. Like why is it so self-evident why no one posts positive examples when they've been happy to post "I think it sounds fine" for a couple weeks now? I don't care at this point, sale's over, but you say it would be masochism to post examples while writing paragraph after paragraph contributing to the debate (nothing wrong with that, I spend a lot of time here too).


Yeah sorry - I don't buy that argument either. Saying "what's the point in posting" is a cop out on many levels.

None of us want buggy inferior products, we want - if anything - to be proven wrong, that we are doing something wrong and can therefore be fixed on our end and get on with writing music.


----------



## G_Erland

lettucehat said:


> You and a decent amount of other people seem to have limitless patience for coming in and "fighting this shit" verbally, so I don't see the big leap in posting examples. Like why is it so self-evident why no one posts positive examples when they've been happy to post "I think it sounds fine" for a couple weeks now? I don't care at this point, sale's over, but you say it would be masochism to post examples while writing paragraph after paragraph contributing to the debate (nothing wrong with that, I spend a lot of time here too).


And with this you hope to win that people take the time out to post some music to you?


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I don't have the Kontakt versions of Brass or Strings (or Perc), so I can't post comparisons. I will try to do some comparisons for woodwinds this weekend. I for one would love to hear more comparisons (including ones where SINE performs BETTER) from folks. Why, as somebody who bought SINE, would I only want to hear the issues? I'm trying to use these libraries! I want to know what they do well too.

There's no conspiracy to only post bad stuff - but we need to let OT know what's going on.


----------



## lettucehat

G_Erland said:


> And with this you hope to win that people take the time out to post some music to you?


No I'm not asking for anything, I'm responding to a point he made.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Does anyone want these musicloops for Studio One? (Berlin Main + Exp A/B)

Multi mic set up but special bows only has 1 output. You can change that easy.

View attachment 2021-12-04_10-23-15.mp4


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Does anyone want these musicloops for Studio One? (Berlin Main + Exp A/B)
> 
> Multi mic set up but special bows only has 1 output. You can change that easy.
> 
> View attachment 2021-12-04_10-23-15.mp4


Sound Variations or Musicloops? If you have SV's all built for all the Berlin SINE series, would love them please  (or put it on Presonus Exchange?) Thank you!


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I don't think that's fair. For example, I did post a mockup using Berlin Brass SINE and was pleased by it in general - but that doesn't take away from the bugs that folks have posted about that are clearly evident - or from some of OT's rather confounding policies / general lack of response to very real concerns. There's no "fighting this shit" - these libraries have many good aspects, but they also have issues as does OT's approach to sales (and marketing).


I agree and I very much appreciated your example! And that thread is great btw! I also appreciated a lot of the examples exposing the Sine issues, especially @SimonCharlesHanna who honed in immediately on a number of real problems in BB Sine. But when Hendrik posted his legato video, the response was he's cherry picking and ignoring all this other stuff, not well, those legatos do sound improved. Some didn't think they sounded improved, which is fair and a matter of taste, but that's not really the point. The point is that many took his video as being presented in bad faith. Just as a certain member of the Forum took my early limited defenses of OT as being presented in bad faith as though I was shilling for OT. Similarly the brass number that opens the walkthrough of both the Sine and Kontakt BB: it was all OMG what a disaster is the Sine library, when no mentioned anything about the demo before it was compared to the Kontakt version. And then while there were clear differences in the two and I also overall preferred the Kontakt version to a degree (mostly because I think the new top layer is a bit unruly and the piece didn't really call for that), I also heard lots of places the Sine version offered an improvement.

I mean I guess I could post a bunch of side by side comparisons that sound like the trumpet 2 comparison, with only very subtle differences between the two libraries. I'm not sure how useful that would be though. Here's one example. Here's an almost identical example. Though I'm sure people would pick them apart and tell me why I'm shit for thinking the virtually identical Sine version is a poor substitute for the exquisite Kontakt version. I'm inclined to post side by side examples without stating which is which.

But overall, the biggest differences I am finding between the libraries are in the workflows between Kontakt and Sine. Aside from the bugs, the workflow differences dwarf any differences in the sound and that comparison can't really be shown through musical examples. You will find a large proportion of my commentary is devoted to analyzing the Sine implementation of BS and figuring out what the optimal set up for my workflow is.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Sound Variations or Musicloops? If you have SV's all built for all the Berlin SINE series, would love them please  (or put it on Presonus Exchange?) Thank you!


it's a musicloop with outputs and sound variations. I've never uploaded to exchanges let me try that.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Sound Variations or Musicloops? If you have SV's all built for all the Berlin SINE series, would love them please  (or put it on Presonus Exchange?) Thank you!




@ALittleNightMusic FYI I basically put anything I thought would work with legato in the first few channels, then it's just artics as usual. I got lazy with the expansions tho.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

jbuhler said:


> I agree and I very much appreciated your example! And that thread is great btw! I also appreciated a lot of the examples exposing the Sine issues, especially @SimonCharlesHanna who honed in immediately on a number of real problems in BB Sine. But when Hendrik posted his legato video, the response was he's cherry picking and ignoring all this other stuff, not well, those legatos do sound improved. Some didn't think they sounded improved, which is fair and a matter of taste, but that's not really the point. The point is that many took his video as being presented in bad faith. Just as a certain member of the Forum took my early limited defenses of OT as being presented in bad faith as though I was shilling for OT. Similarly the brass number that opens the walkthrough of both the Sine and Kontakt BB: it was all OMG what a disaster is the Sine library, when no mentioned anything about the demo before it was compared to the Kontakt version. And then while there were clear differences in the two and I also overall preferred the Kontakt version to a degree (mostly because I think the new top layer is a bit unruly and the piece didn't really call for that), I also heard lots of places the Sine version offered an improvement.
> 
> I mean I guess I could post a bunch of side by side comparisons that sound like the trumpet 2 comparison, with only very subtle differences between the two libraries. I'm not sure how useful that would be though. Here's one example. Here's an almost identical example. Though I'm sure people would pick them apart and tell me why I'm shit for thinking the virtually identical Sine version is a poor substitute for the exquisite Kontakt version. I'm inclined to post side by side examples without stating which is which.
> 
> But overall, the biggest differences I am finding between the libraries are in the workflows between Kontakt and Sine. Aside from the bugs, the workflow differences dwarf any differences in the sound and that comparison can't really be shown through musical examples. You will find a large proportion of my commentary is devoted to analyzing the Sine implementation of BS and figuring out what the optimal set up for my workflow is.


I guess here's the thing about the SINE collection - it doesn't have the advantage of being viewed in a vacuum. As you said, if the Kontakt version of the demo for brass didn't exist, perhaps a lot less people would have noticed issues with the SINE version. There might've been similar feedback, but possibly less. Unfortunately, the SINE version doesn't exist in a vacuum - and it very specifically exists as a direct comparison to a previous iteration of the library (using, on the whole, the exact same recordings). Great for users, maybe not so great for OT. Layer on to that the massive differences in workflow between Kontakt and SINE (some benefitting SINE, but quite a few benefitting Kontakt), and you have a perfect storm.

You could post a blind test if your goal was to "trick" folks here or prove a point that people are inherently biased against SINE or something. But I'm not sure how helpful that is. This is very much a comparison between what OT had available for sale (and still has available for sale IN A SENSE) vs. what they are claiming to be an improved version. So, I think it is natural for folks to test that claim - and if the claim doesn't hold up (and not in just a couple of obscure scenarios, but quite a few primary use cases), then you're going to get the response you see on this thread. On top of that, OT refuses to provide any sort of crossgrade option for folks like myself that have bought the SINE version off the bat (even though they are clearly allowing people to buy the Kontakt versions). So effectively, they are just adding fuel to the fire and taking customers that could be massive advocates for the company and turning them into massive detractors.


----------



## jonathanwright

I’ve been using Sine in Cubase without any issues, but began a project in Logic and there are definitely a few bugs there.

Several of the legato patches won’t load at all, the progress bar sticks.

I‘ve also noticed that deleting a mic position in standalone mode can cause a crash.


----------



## Chungus

Found another bug. Both spot mics of trombone 1 have their audio come from the hard left. BB always had wonky stereo imaging, but it was never that bad. Reported.



jonathanwright said:


> I’ve been using Sine in Cubase without any issues, but began a project in Logic and there are definitely a few bugs there.
> 
> Several of the legato patches won’t load at all, the progress bar sticks.
> 
> I‘ve also noticed that deleting a mic position in standalone mode can cause a crash.


I had that issue with BB when loading sus+leg patches after the update. Removing them and adding them back in solved it for me.


----------



## muk

There are two issues that caused Orchestral Tool's to drop very low on the list of developers I like to support. The first one has been discussed here at some length. It's the moral aspect of OT selling high priced libraries without allowing refunds and resales, but not delivering of all the advertised features, and not providing what I would call appropriate support. Not responding to tickets for months, and responding with 'yes it doesn't work, but we will not fix it' is clearly very poor for customers who are stuck with the products. The practice of advertising features that do not work, and not fixing them for a long time - or changing the wording of the advertising after the fact - that's pretty low too in my opinion. No need to dwell any further on this from my side.

More importantly for prospective buyers though, is another issue. And I don't hink that has been discussed here, but for me it lies very much at the heart of my frustration with OT's libraries. It's that their libraries seem to be designed for one specific workflow, treating the other workflow as an afterthought. To me that seems to be the cause for the polarization of their libraires and the SINE player. One group of people are largely happy with SINE, while another group thinks that SINE leaves a lot ot be desired.

For me personally, SINE is currently way behind other developers if you work with one track per instrument. If you work with one track per articulation, SINE seems to be up to that task. It was the same with the Kontakt versions of OT's libraries. Upon first release, their Kontakt libraries offered no features for people who work with one track per instrument. Capsule was introduced later on, partly to solve this problem. For me personally it did not solve the problem completely. It still had significant shortcomings for my workflow. (The limit of twelve articulations per instance. Not being able to use the preprogramed legato articulations in Capsule. The complicated workaround needed to have portamento triggered on low velocities, and legato above. To name but a few). If by no means perfect, it was at least a tool I could work with.

In my opinion, SINE is significantly behind other developers if you work with one track per instrument. It is, even, a step behind Capsule in that regard. Not being able to lock Polymap is a clear sign that polymaps are not intended by Orchestral Tools to be used with other articulations on the same channel. They simply assume a workflow of one track per articulation for all users, and forgot the other camp. Again. To me it seems pretty clear that one track per articulation is their priority, the only way of working they identify with and are knowledgeable about. And the other workflow is treated half-heartedly at best.

I think a lot of the frustrations people voice here come from this fact. Clearly, there are obvious bugs that are not related to this and should not have made it into a software release. But I do think that many of these bugs will be ironed out. However, I don't expect Orchestral Tools doing much, if anything at all, to improve the situation with SINE for people who work with one track per instrument.

It's this, inherently, that makes Orchestral Tools libraries a poor choice for me and my workflow. And I think there is a pretty significant number of users, who - maybe without knowing - struggle with the same problem with Orchestral Tools and SINE.


----------



## holywilly

@OrchestralTools makes qualitied and unique libraries, and I’ve been investing quite a lot ever since SINE is released. I wish our voices can be heard and considered. 

At least to have product manuals.


----------



## jonathanwright

Chungus said:


> Found another bug. Both spot mics of trombone 1 have their audio come from the hard left. BB always had wonky stereo imaging, but it was never that bad. Reported.
> 
> 
> I had that issue with BB when loading sus+leg patches after the update. Removing them and adding them back in solved it for me.


Thanks for that, I gave it a go but it didn't work unfortunately.

I loaded some custom presets I made before the update, and they work though.


----------



## emilio_n

Reading this post and discovering that suddenly, OT is the worst samples company on the planet. 

I don't understand the Public lynching here. I have several OT libraries. I like most of them. I have some problems as well with some patches but this is not exclusive to OT products.

I wish they have more sales, but at the same time, I think that they are doing well. I hate some companies on sales all year long and I felt chated buying things on the "best sales ever" to find one week later half price.

I found some comments here too much. Seems to be a lot of haters around that I didn't notice before. I was thinking to get the Berlin Bundle but finally, I desisted. I have the EDU discount and I can buy it later. For sure most of the complaints are legit and it's true that OT is not the most responsive company about updates, fixed and even communication in the forum.
Some people said "Hey, don't talk about other products here. This is a safe thread for the seller" but I think hurts them more all the constant attacks than comparing their products with the competition.

If I were a newcomer to this composition world, I would never buy anything from OT after reading this thread. Orchestral Tools have a lot of things to improve, but I think that is one of the best sampling companies out there about the quality of sound and innovative ideas.

I never used Capsule on Kontakt but I like Sine. I think some of the critics are about the different workflow and I understand because is difficult to change our way to work. You can't ask one company to fit into your workflow because each one work in a different way, They propose one way. If you don't like it, you can report to them, give suggestions and of course tell them here. Finally, they need to adapt to their customers.

About the errors in the port, I am sure they will fix all. I think they try to release the Belin Series on Sine when is not ready, that is a wrong decision. This is a niche business but the competence is fierce.

I am not a fanboy of any developer but also not a hater. I don't have the Berlin series, so my opinion is restricted to read this thread. (I have many other OT products so, I have a formed opinion about the company)

Just my 2 cents. All these companies work hard to make a good reputation and some kinds of comments are unfair and very harmful.

EDIT: I hope they fix all the problems soon and they listen to some of the positive critics here. I read a lot as well.

EDIT 2: I hope also that Orchestral Tools commnet something here to empatize with the angry customers. They can't just keep silence.


----------



## dhmusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Yeah sorry - I don't buy that argument either. Saying "what's the point in posting" is a cop out on many levels.





lettucehat said:


> You and a decent amount of other people seem to have limitless patience for coming in and "fighting this shit" verbally, so I don't see the big leap in posting examples. Like why is it so self-evident why no one posts positive examples when they've been happy to post "I think it sounds fine" for a couple weeks now? I don't care at this point, sale's over, but you say it would be masochism to post examples while writing paragraph after paragraph contributing to the debate (nothing wrong with that, I spend a lot of time here too).



I don't know how many ways I have to say this...

That would be _super duper boring_

You have to ask in the form of a _deathmatch _


----------



## muziksculp

emilio_n said:


> EDIT 2: I hope also that Orchestral Tools commnet something here to empatize with the angry customers. They can't just keep silence.


Yes, I think this is badly needed at this point. They need to communicate more, their silence strategy is not a wise thing, especially with the current status quo.


----------



## jbuhler

muk said:


> For me personally, SINE is currently way behind other developers if you work with one track per instrument. If you work with one track per articulation, SINE seems to be up to that task. It was the same with the Kontakt versions of OT's libraries. Upon first release, their Kontakt libraries offered no features for people who work with one track per instrument. Capsule was introduced later on, partly to solve this problem. For me personally it did not solve the problem completely. It still had significant shortcomings for my workflow. (The limit of twelve articulations per instance. Not being able to use the preprogramed legato articulations in Capsule. The complicated workaround needed to have portamento triggered on low velocities, and legato above. To name but a few). If by no means perfect, it was at least a tool I could work with.


I also use one instrument per track and don’t in fact find this to be generally true of Sine libraries. Mostly Sine libraries fit this workflow well. BSS for instance is a delight with a one instrument per track workflow. But, and this is a big but, the way Berlin Strings is set up is a poor fit to this workflow. It’s mostly better than Capsule but the frustrating thing is that it would take rather little to make it fit my workflow well.

The biggest issue is the pre-assigning of groups to midi channels, which you can’t change. It reminds me of some of the stupider decisions with Capsule, which was not just restricted to 12 slots but also restricted which articulations could be grouped together. Then too there’s the assignment of legato in Capsule mode, which makes calling portamento especially kludgy. This goes to an earlier point I made about OT’s design philosophy in general confusing simplicity and rigidity.



muk said:


> Not being able to lock Polymap is a clear sign that polymaps are not intended by Orchestral Tools to be used with other articulations on the same channel. They simply assume a workflow of one track per articulation for all users, and forgot the other camp.


Polymap doesn’t work at all with one instrument per track but I don’t see that it works well with one articulation per track either because polymap is still prone to being inadvertently reset. Really it seems designed to be used in the moment, where you lay something down, record to audio, and then move on to the next passage and set the polymap for that. This is not my workflow at all for anything but noodling.

Even used this way, the decision on the group layout still leaves much to be desired and there’s no way I can see that you can use polymap to morph between ord and trem, one of the most likely things you’d use it for…



muk said:


> However, I don't expect Orchestral Tools doing much, if anything at all, to improve the situation with SINE for people who work with one track per instrument.



This is my fear too, and so I’m expecting BS will never be able to be more than a supplemental library for me, because OT isn't much interested in moving from its rigid conception of its use. Sine is a better bet for the kind of smaller libraries OT has been releasing lately, the ones with only one group per instrument.


----------



## Jett Hitt

This thread took a decidedly nasty turn, but @ALittleNightMusic is exactly right: OT is in a very difficult spot because these libraries can't be viewed in a vacuum. When has a developer ever released a product that had a twin in the marketplace? Comparison is inevitable, and anything other than a grand slam by the newcomer is going to be found wanting.

I find the workflow required to use these libraries (especially BS) irksome, and yet as I survey the many articulations, I mostly don't know how I would have done it differently. The problem is that BS was conceived at a time when one articulation per track was the norm. Jeez, remember Hollywood Strings and its 52,000 patches? This is from the end of that era. I found HS so complicated and cumbersome that I started using CS2 and then later CSS. Workflows changed, and libraries changed. Reincarnating a library from that time is probably necessarily going to be a Frankenstein.

Porting these libraries to Sine is a pretty daunting and thankless task, but the success of that venture was greatly imperiled by OT's rush to market. These should have been perfected and released one at a time as they were ready. Ire and scorn are the inevitable products of the haphazard approach that OT took, and these are compounded by the years of customer indifference and lackadaisical implementation of repairs and updates. These are further compounded by OT's pricing, which has always been extravagant. If you're going to price it like a Porsche, it sure as hell better drive like one.

I am now vested in these libraries, and all I can hope for is OT's determination to make them a success. On one hand, I feel kind of bad for them as I survey this thread, but on the other, maybe it's exactly the good swift kick in the ass they needed to step up their game. They've been riding a mighty tall horse for a long time.


----------



## dhmusic

Jett Hitt said:


> I find the workflow required to use these libraries (especially BS) irksome, and yet as I survey the many articulations, I mostly don't know how I would have done it differently. The problem is that BS was conceived at a time when one articulation per track was the norm. Jeez, remember Hollywood Strings and its 52,000 patches? This is from the end of that era. I found HS so complicated and cumbersome that I started using CS2 and then later CSS. Workflows changed, and libraries changed. Reincarnating a library from that time is probably necessarily going to be a Frankenstein.


Berlin Strings seems more geared towards users who implement articulation managers of some form. What DAW are you using?


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## Jett Hitt

dhmusic said:


> Berlin Strings seems more geared towards users who implement articulation managers of some form. What DAW are you using?


Logic


----------



## dhmusic

Jett Hitt said:


> Logic


Do you (or would you want to try) to use their articulation system?


----------



## Jett Hitt

dhmusic said:


> Do you (or would you want to try) to use their articulation system?


I am not sure what you are getting at. I use articulation sets, but this doesn't keep me from having multiple tracks with BS.


----------



## dhmusic

Jett Hitt said:


> I am not sure what you are getting at. I use articulation sets, but this doesn't keep me from having multiple tracks with BS.


I was gonna offer to make some if you hadn't tried them but I guess they didn't help much.

I have 5 tracks total for Berlin Strings Main + Exp A + Exp B + Exp D but that's in cubase


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## Jett Hitt

dhmusic said:


> I was gonna offer to make some if you hadn't tried them but I guess they didn't help much.
> 
> I have 5 tracks total for Berlin Strings Main + Exp A + Exp B + Exp D but that's in cubase


Too bad I am no longer using Cubase because that sure would have been nice. At this point, I am probably going to just wait for @babylonwaves to release a set.


----------



## dhmusic

Jett Hitt said:


> Too bad I am no longer using Cubase because that sure would have been nice. At this point, I am probably going to just wait for @babylonwaves to release a set.


I bet they'll be out in no time


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

I shared some Cubase expression maps earlier in this thread btw.


----------



## ka00

Jett Hitt said:


> I am not sure what you are getting at. I use articulation sets, but this doesn't keep me from having multiple tracks with BS.


Apologies if you know this, but Logic Articulation sets allow you to output on different channels. You could keep each of the five groups of articulations per instrument on its own channel in your articulation set and in sine. Then all the arts of an instrument will be accessible on one track.


----------



## JF

Has anyone been able to mic-merge Horn 2?


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## Jett Hitt

ka00 said:


> Apologies if you know this, but Logic Articulation sets allow you to output on different channels. You could keep each of the five groups of articulations per instrument on its own channel in your articulation set and in sine. Then all the arts of an instrument will be accessible on one track.


No need to apologize. I actually didn't know this. I've never worked in channels before. It seems simple enough on the surface, though it is annoying that all of the meters reflect any activity happening on any given channel.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I am not sure what you are getting at. I use articulation sets, but this doesn't keep me from having multiple tracks with BS.


You can do it if you use midi channels for each group, but I can't get Logic to send CCs reliably to omni (i.e., "any—it always reverts to a specific channel), so that means writing a script or finding one (there used to be some floating around the forum) to propagate the CCs across all the channels. Otherwise you end up with a very confusing CC situation when you switch from ord to trem, say, and end up switching back and forth between modulation for midi channel 1 and midi channel 2, for instance, rather than having the same CC sent to both channels. But if you can get the CCs to propagate, you can set each group into its own midi channel and then make the articulation sets address everything across midi channels.

I have an articulation set for the Kontakt version of BS that works that way and uses I think 5 midi channels. Babylon Waves has a Kontakt multiscript that takes care of getting the CCs across midi channels. That set up still has lots of issues, though, and I'm finding I prefer Sine with several tracks to Kontakt even though I can get it all onto one track in Kontakt. When I was working on a noodle last night I did it up using both the single track from Kontakt and with Sine and the whole process went much faster in Sine, even though I did the Sine version first. Moreover I had difficulty replicating the Sine version in Kontakt. I think I would have had to redo the Kontakt instruments so that the expressive long legato was in the same Capsule instance as the main legato and the soft legato (those were the articulations I was using). Programming the Capsule instances is just way more fussy than Sine, and Capsule just refused to do some things. Still finding workarounds for Capsule resulted in a plausibly better rendition, at least in this exposed setting. That's an interesting thing about workarounds—you sometimes stumble on a better solution.

Sine:

View attachment BS Noodle 1.1 Sine (NoVerb) 1.mp3


Kontakt:

View attachment BS Noodle 1.1 Kontakt (NoVerb).mp3


BS Violins 1 and 2 in octaves, violin 2 trimmed a bit under violin 1 using CC11. These are the tree mics out of the box with no other processing including no reverb. They are also programmed for contextual setting rather than being exposed like this, and the fourth note for the Sine version was originally programmed with a portamento, which I removed to make it conform to the Kontakt version. This resulted in a less than ideal legato transition that I didn't take time to fix, because I still want that interval to be portamento in the noodle I excerpted these from. Kontakt also has portamento available but it's rather hard to trigger properly with the Capsule legatos. The Kontakt version evidently has the CC11 pulled down too quickly at the end as well, resulting in a poor release.

One further point: I find the differences between these to be real but subtle, and also mostly within the range of programming, meaning skilled programming and mixing will make a larger difference with these libraries than will any differences in the libraries themselves. I also find the largest differences are in the workflow between Kontakt and Sine. And there I think Sine mostly comes out on top.

Still, I do feel like I'm fighting BS in Sine, that there are significant frictions to my workflow, and that it really wants to be used in a different way.


----------



## Jett Hitt

@jbuhler I already prefer the Sine version of BS to the Kontakt version--minus the bugs of course, though I trust most of those will be ironed out in time. Initially I set up my template with multiple instruments in the Sine player, but I am quickly deciding that maybe that isn't the right approach. I've just never used channels before because I never really saw the point. I am thinking now that I need to spread these out.

I have long since had difficulties with Logic and CC data, but I don't really know enough about what I am doing there to comment at present. I think that I am going to put each instrument on its own player with channels and see how that works. This is just all really new to me and very different to the way I have worked in the past. There is going to be a learning curve here, and I am likely not going to completely tackle it until articulation sets are released.


----------



## Jett Hitt

On another note, the new Sine woodwinds seem to have the same problem as Revive. They are just too quiet. A piccolo should be able to lead the orchestra around by the nose, but I can't even hear the piccolo in a thick mix. Guess I'm glad I have the Legacy version.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

jbuhler said:


> I also find the largest differences are in the workflow between Kontakt and Sine. And there I think Sine mostly comes out on top.


What do you find SINE does better? This is a point where I'd disagree with you - I know you are not a fan of Capsule, but I've never run into many issues with it (using it for years with BWW). It offers, as far as I have come across, the same functionality as SINE - plus things like true purging, easier layering, editing, etc. SINE has potential, but the current implementation does not capitalize on it.

I also find it a rather poor design decision that in SINE, they have tried to squeeze everything into a small box in the bottom right - when they have SO much negative and unused space throughout the interface.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> @jbuhler I already prefer the Sine version of BS to the Kontakt version--minus the bugs of course, though I trust most of those will be ironed out in time. Initially I set up my template with multiple instruments in the Sine player, but I am quickly deciding that maybe that isn't the right approach. I've just never used channels before because I never really saw the point. I am thinking now that I need to spread these out.
> 
> I have long since had difficulties with Logic and CC data, but I don't really know enough about what I am doing there to comment at present. I think that I am going to put each instrument on its own player with channels and see how that works. This is just all really new to me and very different to the way I have worked in the past. There is going to be a learning curve here, and I am likely not going to completely tackle it until articulation sets are released.


Have you set up articulation sets yet? If not, I have really basic sets for the longs and shorts group with some additional legatos of each string section as well as the Sine presets that correspond to those. I'm happy to send those along.


----------



## dhmusic

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What do you find SINE does better? This is a point where I'd disagree with you - I know you are not a fan of Capsule, but I've never run into many issues with it (using it for years with BWW). It offers, as far as I have come across, the same functionality as SINE - plus things like true purging, easier layering, editing, etc. SINE has potential, but the current implementation does not capitalize on it.
> 
> I also find it a rather poor design decision that in SINE, they have tried to squeeze everything into a small box in the bottom right - when they have SO much negative and unused space throughout the interface.


Idk man I'm going through some of the new BST patches and they sound so good. So much more focused. I even like the Serial Spiccato, which I pretty much avoided completely in kontakt

I totally agree with the use of space though. I hope they bring in more features to fill it out.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

dhmusic said:


> Idk man I'm going through some of the new BST patches and they sound so good. So much more focused. I even like the Serial Spiccato, which I pretty much avoided completely in kontakt
> 
> I totally agree with the use of space though. I hope they bring in more features to fill it out.


That's due to sample cleanup / scripting improvements, which is great - but from a workflow standpoint, I'm wondering what SINE does that much better than Capsule?


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> Have you set up articulation sets yet? If not, I have really basic sets for the longs and shorts group with some additional legatos of each string section as well as the Sine presets that correspond to those. I'm happy to send those along.


I'm going to put your name in for beatification. I would be delighted to receive anything you've put together. composer at jetthitt.com would probably be the simplest, unless there is a more appropriate way.


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What do you find SINE does better? This is a point where I'd disagree with you - I know you are not a fan of Capsule, but I've never run into many issues with it (using it for years with BWW). It offers, as far as I have come across, the same functionality as SINE - plus things like true purging, easier layering, editing, etc. SINE has potential, but the current implementation does not capitalize on it.
> 
> I also find it a rather poor design decision that in SINE, they have tried to squeeze everything into a small box in the bottom right - when they have SO much negative and unused space throughout the interface.


I'm still puzzling that out, tbh. It's very much a feel at the moment. But I do find that everything takes me much longer to program in Capsule, and I get lots of misfires when I program it that requires continually going back over and editing the midi. I have few of those issues with the Sine version. 

That said, I agree with you completely about many of the poor design choices with Sine. Yes, putting all that basic functionality into a little box is kind of ridiculous. Not quite as ridiculous as putting all that functionality for Capsule in the little wrench, but bordering on it. And as I have noted in other posts, Sine suffers from confusing simplicity and rigidity. (Another bit of philosophy they ported to Sine.) A lot of the Sine implementation is just too rigid. Polymap makes little sense without a lock function and without the ability to merge articulations across groups (and really it should be able to do this across instruments). The purge implementation is nonsensical. The speed and velocity parameters for the adaptive legato ought to be user modifiable, and barring that OT should at least tell us the values at which they are triggered. The library tab is growing increasingly unruly as I acquire more Sine instruments. The default for saving instrument sets can't be changed so you have to navigate to the right place every time. The option tab gives CC commands that are not explained in the manual. The manual in general is woefully incomplete. I could go on.

But Sine still works much better for me on every library I've tried. BS has been the most difficult Sine library by far, but even that one is working much better for me—though I still don't think I'll be able to use BS as my main string library unless I can figure out a way to make a reduced articulation version that isn't overly clumsy to implement. I do feel though I will be able to use the Sine version regularly in a way that hasn't been the case for the Kontakt version.


----------



## dhmusic

ALittleNightMusic said:


> That's due to sample cleanup / scripting improvements, which is great - but from a workflow standpoint, I'm wondering what SINE does that much better than Capsule?


It does fast simple custom stuff way better. So say you have a quick combo where you want to blend 4 combinations of elements on different channels, that's really fast.

It really struggles when you try to do deeper level stuff. I've tried brute forcing some of my custom patches from kontakt and it really takes forever and it's super finicky still. I doubt it'll stay that way forever though since they tend to attract more of a "power user" customer


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> What do you find SINE does better? This is a point where I'd disagree with you - I know you are not a fan of Capsule, but I've never run into many issues with it (using it for years with BWW). It offers, as far as I have come across, the same functionality as SINE - plus things like true purging, easier layering, editing, etc. SINE has potential, but the current implementation does not capitalize on it.
> 
> I also find it a rather poor design decision that in SINE, they have tried to squeeze everything into a small box in the bottom right - when they have SO much negative and unused space throughout the interface.


One thing SINE is doing way better here is i don't get hanging notes. With denser arrangements, Capsule had a lot of those.

I agree regarding negative space and that's not even the only design complaint I have with SINE. Actually i have many design complaints!


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I'm going to put your name in for beatification. I would be delighted to receive anything you've put together. composer at jetthitt.com would probably be the simplest, unless there is a more appropriate way.


Email sent!


----------



## A.Heppelmann

What are everyone's favorite mic settings so far? I'm just using Tree and Surround right now, but I'm trying to decide whether or not to add more and merge them together.


----------



## Casiquire

A.Heppelmann said:


> What are everyone's favorite mic settings so far? I'm just using Tree and Surround right now, but I'm trying to decide whether or not to add more and merge them together.


I'm heavy on the AB. It has a smoothness and warmth to it. I don't use the ORTF where available. I usually do add quite a bit of close as well


----------



## A.Heppelmann

Casiquire said:


> I'm heavy on the AB. It has a smoothness and warmth to it. I don't use the ORTF where available. I usually do add quite a bit of close as well


So AB, Tree, and Close? Or does AB replace Tree for you?


----------



## Casiquire

A.Heppelmann said:


> So AB, Tree, and Close? Or does AB replace Tree for you?


I keep the tree in. Close, AB, Tree, and Sur. It gives a nice balanced full sound imo. I might rebalance a little depending on context in a piece but i like that starting point. Those four also happen to be included in all OT libraries which of course affected my choice


----------



## A.Heppelmann

Casiquire said:


> I keep the tree in. Close, AB, Tree, and Sur. It gives a nice balanced full sound imo. I might rebalance a little depending on context in a piece but i like that starting point. Those four also happen to be included in all OT libraries which of course affected my choice


Did you merge them together?


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @A.Heppelmann ,

I'm going to watch your String Articulation Video tutorial on YT, where you are using BS (SINE) , I'm sure I will benefit from watching it, and learn some helpful tips. I would love it if you release more of these type of videos focused on Articulations, how to use them, which ones for what, and how they relate to each other in various musical phrasing scenarios. Plus, any tips and tricks related to using various articulations to enhance realism.

Thank You for making these videos. 

How do you like the SINE versions of Berlin Main Orch. so far ?

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## Casiquire

A.Heppelmann said:


> Did you merge them together?


No. The SINE compression is pretty good so all four mics with a legato or two and two or three different types of shorts is only like two gigs of ram per instrument. I'm not that interested in mic merging. I'd rather have a proper purge option, but even that isn't at the top of the list of things i want OT to focus on


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Hi @A.Heppelmann ,
> 
> I'm going to watch your String Articulation Video tutorial on YT, where you are using BS (SINE) , I'm sure I will benefit from watching it, and learn some helpful tips. I would love it if you release more of these type of videos focused on Articulations, how to use them, which ones for what, and how they relate to each other in various musical phrasing scenarios. Plus, any tips and tricks related to using various articulations to enhance realism.
> 
> Thanks You for making these videos.
> 
> How do you like the SINE versions of Berlin Main Orch. so far ?
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp


Which video are you referring to?


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Which video are you referring to?


This is Part 2, there is a Part 1 as well.


----------



## Casiquire

A.Heppelmann said:


> Did you merge them together?


Sorry to double-quote lol but i figured I'd clarify that i usually keep the close and surround levels fairly low. The AB sounds low to my ears so i have the tree and AB cranked up and sometimes i do have the AB higher than the tree just because that's what's needed in order to even hear it in some situations. Also I've only had a week or so with the strings and a year with the rest, so if you ask me again in a year I'd bet my mix will be different. For now though it gives me just enough detail and clarity, just enough room, just enough fullness.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

muziksculp said:


> How do you like the SINE versions of Berlin Main Orch. so far ?


I'll probably need another week to properly answer this. I'm working on a new orchestration video, so I'll get a chance to use all of the SINE libraries for the first time together. I only just finished my VEP7 template with all of the SINE libraries. I've noticed a fair number of bugs and small issues that I hope OT fixes soon, but other than that it's been a fairly smooth transition. I don't really get along with Kontakt all that well for whatever reason, so I'm glad to be using SINE, even in its current state. My biggest complaint is that there were a number of issues in the Kontakt versions (like woodwind volume) that still haven't been addressed, and at this point I don't think they ever will be.


----------



## muziksculp

A.Heppelmann said:


> I'll probably need another week to properly answer this. I'm working on a new orchestration video, so I'll get a chance to use all of the SINE libraries for the first time together. I only just finished my VEP7 template with all of the SINE libraries. I've noticed a fair number of bugs and small issues that I hope OT fixes soon, but other than that it's been a fairly smooth transition. I don't really get along with Kontakt all that well for whatever reason, so I'm glad to be using SINE, even in its current state. My biggest complaint is that there were a number of issues in the Kontakt versions (like woodwind volume) that still haven't been addressed, and at this point I don't think they ever will be.


Thanks for the feedback. 

I would encourage you to email the list of issues/bugs you encountered to OT Tech-Support, they will at least know about them. I surely hope they are in full steam ahead mode to fix all the reported bugs, issues, and also improve the features of the SINE player. I'm still optimistic they will make all SINE users happy in the near future, it's just the waiting for them to happen that's not the fun part. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## A.Heppelmann

Casiquire said:


> Sorry to double-quote lol but i figured I'd clarify that i usually keep the close and surround levels fairly low. The AB sounds low to my ears so i have the tree and AB cranked up and sometimes i do have the AB higher than the tree just because that's what's needed in order to even hear it in some situations. Also I've only had a week or so with the strings and a year with the rest, so if you ask me again in a year I'd bet my mix will be different. For now though it gives me just enough detail and clarity, just enough room, just enough fullness.


I'll give these mic settings a try. I'm not very confident in my mixing skills, so it's nice to hear what mics and settings people are using.


----------



## bfreepro

Tree mics mostly, very often using the close (or spot as it’s called now) to add definition to strings without making them too midrange heavy and muddy. I find the strings have a pretty thick sound to begin with, so too much mid or AB mic signal can make things a bit congested sometimes in the midrange. Tree and ORTF for woods, basically keeping it just like the Kontakt version… beautiful detail. Sometimes light close mics in woods. I don’t have the brass but, for JXL brass in the same room I use the unprocessed tree mics only 90 percent of the time, but the surround or room for trumpets so they sound more distant and less “quacky”. Percussion usually only the tree. Strings and woods are what I feel benefit most from close/spot mics in any library.

Side note… do the SINE strings have the “noise” mic that was included in Kontakt? I remember sometimes using that super lightly to have more bow/scratchiness to them. With SINE I didn’t download all the mic positions (yet), just tree, spots and leader. If that noise layer is included, which mic position is it?


----------



## jbuhler

bfreepro said:


> Side note… do the SINE strings have the “noise” mic that was included in Kontakt? I remember sometimes using that super lightly to have more bow/scratchiness to them. With SINE I didn’t download all the mic positions (yet), just tree, spots and leader. If that noise layer is included, which mic position is it?


Nope, and someone in one of these threads says OT told them there is no plan to port it.


----------



## muziksculp

bfreepro said:


> Side note… do the SINE strings have the “noise” mic that was included in Kontakt? I remember sometimes using that super lightly to have more bow/scratchiness to them. With SINE I didn’t download all the mic positions (yet), just tree, spots and leader. If that noise layer is included, which mic position is it?


No. There is no 'Noise' mic in BS (SINE).

These are the mics you get in BS (SINE)


----------



## bfreepro

jbuhler said:


> Nope, and someone in one of these threads says OT told them there is no plan to port it.





muziksculp said:


> No. There is no 'Noise' mic in BS (SINE).
> 
> These are the mics you get in BS (SINE)


Bummer. And yes, I know there were none with that label, but I thought it might have been renamed (since the added leader and renamed the close mics as spot, etc)


----------



## Casiquire

bfreepro said:


> Tree mics mostly, very often using the close (or spot as it’s called now) to add definition to strings without making them too midrange heavy and muddy. I find the strings have a pretty thick sound to begin with, so too much mid or AB mic signal can make things a bit congested sometimes in the midrange. Tree and ORTF for woods, basically keeping it just like the Kontakt version… beautiful detail. Sometimes light close mics in woods. I don’t have the brass but, for JXL brass in the same room I use the unprocessed tree mics only 90 percent of the time, but the surround or room for trumpets so they sound more distant and less “quacky”. Percussion usually only the tree. Strings and woods are what I feel benefit most from close/spot mics in any library.
> 
> Side note… do the SINE strings have the “noise” mic that was included in Kontakt? I remember sometimes using that super lightly to have more bow/scratchiness to them. With SINE I didn’t download all the mic positions (yet), just tree, spots and leader. If that noise layer is included, which mic position is it?


Interesting, i find the strings pretty bright and often feel they need to get warmed up. Different strokes! Plus probably different arrangements and different mixes they need to fit in to. It just goes to show that sometimes you just can't get around the fact that you need to trust your own ears in your own musical context.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Interesting, i find the strings pretty bright and often feel they need to get warmed up.


Yes, they tend to be on the bright side. You can enable the Cutoff Filter, and nudge the Filter Range slider below it a bit to the right, to cut some of the bright high frequencies, and it will sound much warmer.


----------



## bfreepro

Casiquire said:


> Interesting, i find the strings pretty bright and often feel they need to get warmed up. Different strokes! Plus probably different arrangements and different mixes they need to fit in to. It just goes to show that sometimes you just can't get around the fact that you need to trust your own ears in your own musical context.


Yeah generally I love brightness for strings though, especially violins. As much as I love CSS it’s just too dark and warm for me and I EQ the hell out of it, and then it adds in more of that room noise/hiss. Then some things like Spitfire studio strings pro are very bright but often sound too thin to me. I feel BS, tone-wise, is a good balance overall between the two. But with just 1st or 2nd violins or the whole string ensemble on their own, exposed, I could definitely see myself using AB mics and making them sound thicker and more rich, but when they’re all playing together with the rest of the ensemble and orchestra, it all sits fairly nicely I think.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Yes, they tend to be on the bright side. You can enable the Cutoff Filter, and nudge the Filter Range slider below it a bit to the right, to cut some of the bright high frequencies, and it will sound much warmer.


That's great to know, thanks! Someone here mentioned that in kontakt the cutoff filter was for smoothing out dynamic crossfades so i just assumed it was the same in SINE and decided not to even touch it


----------



## tim727

I know I've been one of the more vocal critics of OT in this thread on account of several different factors, but I would like to chime in and say something positive. Apart from the issues in the SINE ports, I actually like _the SINE player itself_. In fact, I prefer it over Capsule/Kontakt personally. I'm not sure how to describe it exactly but there is something about the UI that makes my brain find it easier to navigate than Kontakt, particularly as it pertains to navigating/cycling through articulations, setting up multis, etc.


----------



## JTB

tim727 said:


> I know I've been one of the more vocal critics of OT in this thread on account of several different factors, but I would like to chime in and say something positive. Apart from the issues in the SINE ports, I actually like _the SINE player itself_. In fact, I prefer it over Capsule/Kontakt personally. I'm not sure how to describe it exactly but there is something about the UI that makes my brain find it easier to navigate than Kontakt, particularly as it pertains to navigating/cycling through articulations, setting up multis, etc.


Yeah, Kontakt is hard on the eyes. But that maybe to do with how much functionality it has to fit in a small area. Sine is easy to navigate because it is a very underdeveloped piece of software.


----------



## tim727

JTB said:


> Yeah, Kontakt is hard on the eyes. But that maybe to do with how much functionality it has to fit in a small area. Sine is easy to navigate because it is a very underdeveloped piece of software.


That's a valid point. I think the ways in which it's underdeveloped, per others here, don't affect me as much personally so for me I see benefits more than cons. But of course that will differ depending on each person's workflow. One think that I do find baffling in the UI is that it doesn't seem like it actually tells you the master volume anywhere, unless I'm just missing it?? There's that control in the lower right but it doesn't seem to actually say the number anywhere, leaving you to just guess as to what it is, which if I'm not missing something, is just ... I don't know, a really odd choice.


----------



## Gensaii

Living Fossil said:


> At the point when i bought the library, it stated "required samples will be reloaded"; now it states
> "required instruments".
> which is especially bad style, since it gives them the space to say: "yes, an "instrument" means every single sample of every single articulation".


Damn. Add that to OT's "it's not a bug it's a feature" seemingly growing list. This is truely unfortunate.


----------



## PaulieDC

tim727 said:


> I know I've been one of the more vocal critics of OT in this thread on account of several different factors, but I would like to chime in and say something positive. Apart from the issues in the SINE ports, I actually like _the SINE player itself_. In fact, I prefer it over Capsule/Kontakt personally. I'm not sure how to describe it exactly but there is something about the UI that makes my brain find it easier to navigate than Kontakt, particularly as it pertains to navigating/cycling through articulations, setting up multis, etc.


I'm with you on that one. Kontakt is SO versatile but in order to get to a lot of features you have extremely tiny targets to click with the mouse and that gets tiring, although it can be highly automated. That's just it: I'm a software developer by day so I could go bonkers with all you can script in Kontakt... and them I'm a software developer again. When I leave that world for the day, I want simple and intuitive. I use Win10 because that's my life career but all of my devices are iOS-only. Well, that's what the Spitfire Player and SINE are to me. Slap it in and start playing and make the UI simple so I don't have to think about it. OK, the Store in SINE is not a fave (PayPal doesn't work, have to use the website anyway) and it all takes too long to load that or your licenses, BUT, the playing and performance part I like. Spitfire too mostly, but put all 12 articulations on one page and all the mics on another--they have ROOM. But overall, I'm committed to investing my time to know SINE in-and-out. It's not even 2.X yet, it'll get better, took NI a few iterations to get Kontakt to settle down back in the day.


----------



## bfreepro

tim727 said:


> I know I've been one of the more vocal critics of OT in this thread on account of several different factors, but I would like to chime in and say something positive. Apart from the issues in the SINE ports, I actually like _the SINE player itself_. In fact, I prefer it over Capsule/Kontakt personally. I'm not sure how to describe it exactly but there is something about the UI that makes my brain find it easier to navigate than Kontakt, particularly as it pertains to navigating/cycling through articulations, setting up multis, etc.


Same here


----------



## Evans

Casiquire said:


> Interesting, i find the strings pretty bright and often feel they need to get warmed up. Different strokes!


I'm with you. Seems like a lot of people prefer their strings really bright (unnaturally so?) these days.


----------



## holywilly

I’d say bright and dry are the new trend.


----------



## Casiquire

Evans said:


> I'm with you. Seems like a lot of people prefer their strings really bright (unnaturally so?) these days.


I do like bright strings in general, they fit better in a mix. But then it's a balancing act to keep them from becoming harsh


----------



## Scalms

Yeah, bright strings _feels_ more like you went to Teldex or AIR or wherever and recorded it directly (more presence in the strings) than darker strings which _feel_ like you recorded a copy of a copy (so, sample libraries). Just my opinion of course


----------



## Jett Hitt

Scalms said:


> Yeah, bright strings _feels_ more like you went to Teldex or AIR or wherever and recorded it directly (more presence in the strings) than darker strings which _feel_ like you recorded a copy of a copy (so, sample libraries). Just my opinion of course


That strikes me as a pretty accurate description. It is exactly how I feel about CSS when rendered by less than capable hands, i.e. mine.


----------



## djrustycans

When I was matching Berlin Strings to some orchestral recordings recently (can’t remember if it was Holst or Stravinsky recorded at Concertgebouw) I had to add a smidgeon of top and cut 2-3k to match the sound. I’m not sure BS is too bright but maybe often needs a dip in the high mids. They are sonically my favourite bar none.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

for me going from capsule to sine has been a dream. Capsule is a bloated mess of menus and sub menus. Sine has some glaring UI/UX issues but it's not far off from being fantastic. 

It took me mere minutes to set up BS + expansions in 1 instance including extra artics with legato etc. Would have taken so much longer with capsule. They are on the right track - I think they need someone there to really nail doing some basic UI/UX stuff.


----------



## jbuhler

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> for me going from capsule to sine has been a dream. Capsule is a bloated mess of menus and sub menus. Sine has some glaring UI/UX issues but it's not far off from being fantastic.
> 
> It took me mere minutes to set up BS + expansions in 1 instance including extra artics with legato etc. Would have taken so much longer with capsule. They are on the right track - I think they need someone there to really nail doing some basic UI/UX stuff.


How many midi channels did you end up using for it all?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

jbuhler said:


> How many midi channels did you end up using for it all?


7 I think. probs going to be 1 or 2 more when the SFX expansion comes out.


----------



## Casiquire

SINE really would get several times cooler if we didn't have to split things out into multiple midi channels. I really hope OT is moving in that direction


----------



## coprhead6

I don’t mind multiple midi channels now that I’m moving towards Composer Tools for iPad. 
It’s a total breeze


----------



## Jett Hitt

I’m not entirely certain I see the advantage of using channels over tracks. Each channel just behaves like a limited track in Logic. Unlike tracks, all channels share the same meter output, and if you mute one, you mute all. Does it just take fewer resources? What is the advantage?


----------



## Casiquire

For me, tracks versus midi channels is pretty much the same difference and both are tedious in my work flow. I use Reaper, so if I import a midi track, it's super easy to add keyswitches, and then I can see the entire musical line as well as all velocities and modwheel data. It makes for really quick and clear work. I can't easily manipulate multiple midi channels or tracks the same way though. Even if I filter to see all tracks or channels, it's tough knowing exactly which one is being manipulated at a time. If other Reaper users have a good workaround for this I'm all ears! But ideally they can just allow me to mix and match articulations from various groups and instruments in SINE


----------



## Zanshin

Casiquire said:


> For me, tracks versus midi channels is pretty much the same difference and both are tedious in my work flow. I use Reaper, so if I import a midi track, it's super easy to add keyswitches, and then I can see the entire musical line as well as all velocities and modwheel data. It makes for really quick and clear work. I can't easily manipulate multiple midi channels or tracks the same way though. Even if I filter to see all tracks or channels, it's tough knowing exactly which one is being manipulated at a time. If other Reaper users have a good workaround for this I'm all ears! But ideally they can just allow me to mix and match articulations from various groups and instruments in SINE


Agree 1000%, it's an arbitrary limitation.


----------



## muziksculp

Having a little fun playing with Berlin Strings (SINE). 

I really like the *Celli Espressivo Short - Legato* Articulation, and the legatos are beautiful, and very realistic. 🧡

Here is a short noodle I did using that patch, using a bit of reverb and EQ. Played in real time, with Mod wheel control. I'm sure it can be edited much more to make it sound even more refined. But imho. for a one take real time performance, the results are very good to my ears. 

View attachment BS SINE Espr Short Leg.mp3


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Having a little fun playing with Berlin Strings (SINE).
> 
> I really like the *Celli Espressivo Short - Legato* Articulation, and the legatos are beautiful, and very realistic. 🧡
> 
> Here is a short noodle I did using that patch, using a bit of reverb and EQ. Played in real time, with Mod wheel control. I'm sure it can be edited much more to make it sound even more refined. But imho. for a one take real time performance, the results are very good to my ears.
> 
> View attachment BS SINE Espr Short Leg.mp3


Very nice! I love those Espressivo patches. You can go from Espressivo to Sus+Leg Strong Vibrato to Sus+Leg Vibrato to Sus Soft+Leg to Sus+Leg NV and right there you have an enormous range of sounds and play styles, all working pretty seamlessly together.

My only issue with those Espressivo patches is that they do have a natural arc to them which means if your music is very different from the arc, you might get bumpiness. Just substitute sustain with strong vibrato, I guess.

Which mics are you using?


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Very nice! I love those Espressivo patches. You can go from Espressivo to Sus+Leg Strong Vibrato to Sus+Leg Vibrato to Sus Soft+Leg to Sus+Leg NV and right there you have an enormous range of sounds and play styles, all working pretty seamlessly together.
> 
> My only issue with those Espressivo patches is that they do have a natural arc to them which means if your music is very different from the arc, you might get bumpiness. Just substitute sustain with strong vibrato, I guess.
> 
> Which mics are you using?


I didn't change articulations. Stayed on the Short Espressivo (Legato Enabled). Changing through articulations is going to be my next exercise.

The Mics I used are as shown below :





Reverb used : Altiverb 7 Teledex Stage 

EQ used : Fabfilter Q3


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> I didn't change articulations. Stayed on the Short Espressivo (Legato Enabled). Changing through articulations is going to be my next exercise.
> 
> The Mics I used are as shown below :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reverb used : Altiverb 7 Teledex Stage
> 
> EQ used : Fabfilter Q3


Just the tree! Sounds good of course. Though running OT through a Teldex IR just makes me feel like






But if it sounds good, it is good


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> Just the tree! Sounds good of course. Though running OT through a Teldex IR just makes me feel like
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if it sounds good, it is good


LOL. Yeah kind of funny, but I thought why not use Teledex IR for a Teledex based library, so not to mix things up, just a little more Teledex on top of Teledex might sound very nice, and I think it does.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

muziksculp said:


> I didn't change articulations. Stayed on the Short Espressivo (Legato Enabled). Changing through articulations is going to be my next exercise.
> 
> The Mics I used are as shown below :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reverb used : Altiverb 7 Teledex Stage
> 
> EQ used : Fabfilter Q3


hmm you put teldex IR on top of berlins natural teldex?


----------



## muziksculp

FrozenIcicle said:


> hmm you put teldex IR on top of berlins natural teldex?


Yes. Teledex Squared  They fit nicely together, and it sounds good to me. That's what matters.


----------



## Babe

It's like putting a box inside a box.


----------



## muziksculp

Babe said:


> It's like putting a box inside a box.


Well, most orchestral mixes apply a reverb to the mic mix, I could have used any other IR, or Algorithmic Reverb, but I thought, why not stay in the Teledex Stage, so adding a Teledex IR is imho. quite a suitable way to add more spatial character that will fit the natural space the mics come from, and actually the result sounds quite transparent to me.


----------



## Casiquire

To be fair, the IR in Altiverb doesn't sit instruments next to OT very well to my ears, so it's not like it isn't doing anything. It's definitely adding color


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> To be fair, the IR in Altiverb doesn't sit instruments next to OT very well to my ears, so it's not like it isn't doing anything. It's definitely adding color


Maybe, it is, but I like what it's doing, I hear a very rich timbre. 

Also notice how you do not hear a reverb tail in the performance, it is very transparent, and natural sounding.


----------



## Casiquire

muziksculp said:


> Maybe, it is, but I like what it's doing, I hear a very rich timbre.
> 
> Also notice how you do not hear a reverb tail in the performance, it is very transparent, and natural sounding.


Yeah I'm not saying that like it's a bad thing


----------



## dhmusic

Jett Hitt said:


> I’m not entirely certain I see the advantage of using channels over tracks. Each channel just behaves like a limited track in Logic. Unlike tracks, all channels share the same meter output, and if you mute one, you mute all. Does it just take fewer resources? What is the advantage?


The best way I can put it is to imagine building a word-phrase with changing notes across 80 different syllables. It's a lot easier to edit all the note/cc data on a single track and assign articulations (or syllable fragments in this case) to the individual notes than to jump to a different midi event on 80 different midi tracks.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I’m not entirely certain I see the advantage of using channels over tracks. Each channel just behaves like a limited track in Logic. Unlike tracks, all channels share the same meter output, and if you mute one, you mute all. Does it just take fewer resources? What is the advantage?


You can set it up so it doesn’t work that way, if I’m understanding what you are saying. In my view the main advantage of multiple midi channels on one track is that you can treat it all as a single midi track with a single articulation set for the instrument: all violin 1 midi can then go on a single track like a score. The main disadvantage is the need to propagate the CCs across all midi channels, since Logic doesn’t want to send to “any” channel and will default to the active channel when recording or inputting midi data. Also though you are supposed to be able to trigger different articulations at the same time using articulation sets, I haven’t found that this generally works. So you need additional tracks anyway if you want to layer articulations. That’s not an issue specific to using midi channels though.


----------



## Zanshin

After a few days, still in the honeymoon of course, but really loving BS and BSS! For sure there are bumpy legatos, sine can be a shit, and other issues that are mentioned above in this gigantic thread - which I hope OT fixes... but the instruments and recordings themselves are extremely beautiful.

Has anyone else adjusted instrument pan to match wider stages like the wide Teldex JXL Brass uses, Synchron etc? I'll be using BS and BSS with libraries that are in a wider sound stage.

I'm using a plugin, Panpot by Goodhertz, which seems well suited to this. In particular, the "Lifelike" preset which uses a combo of delay and spectral panning. For both BS and BSS I'm currently using Violins 1 -50%, Violins 2 -25%, Violas 35%, Celli 75%, and Basses 50%. Mostly using tree and a bit of spot mics. This "feels" good so far and more like the stereo separation I am used to.

I knew going in it was a narrower stereo field, but it surprised me how much!


----------



## Jett Hitt

If someone has a Logic template that he/she has set up to work this way, I'd love to download it and play with it. Or if anyone knows of a video that illustrates this, please point me toward it. It sounds like @jbuhler has hit limitations in Logic that may make this a moot point anyway.

As things stand at the moment, I have Violin 1 spread over 5 channels:

Longs and Shorts
Ornaments
Dynamics
Special Bows
Symphonic Strings

It works fine, but I think that this is not the way it was intended to work. This is just like having five tracks except I have less control over them.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

muziksculp said:


> Maybe, it is, but I like what it's doing, I hear a very rich timbre.
> 
> Also notice how you do not hear a reverb tail in the performance, it is very transparent, and natural sounding.


why not add surround mic


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> If someone has a Logic template that he/she has set up to work this way, I'd love to download it and play with it. Or if anyone knows of a video that illustrates this, please point me toward it. It sounds like @jbuhler has hit limitations in Logic that may make this a moot point anyway.
> 
> As things stand at the moment, I have Violin 1 spread over 5 channels:
> 
> Longs and Shorts
> Ornaments
> Dynamics
> Special Bows
> Symphonic Strings
> 
> It works fine, but I think that this is not the way it was intended to work. This is just like having five tracks except I have less control over them.


One other issue with the single track set up is that the list of articulations gets very, very long, so if you aren’t controlling it from a tablet or some other controller that updates articulation assignments in real time, it can be very difficult to manage the articulations. You certainly don’t want to be finding the articulation on a drop down list approaching 100 items. So it can make sense to break things down on that basis. 

The more I’ve been thinking about, the more I think I need a patch with a set of basic articulations and then a set of tracks with additional articulations. The main issue with this plan is that I’d want trills and tremolos in the basic patch and maybe harmonics and sul tasto borrowed from libraries other than BS Main. So I’d still be dealing with managing midi channels in that set up too.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

jbuhler said:


> One other issue with the single track set up is that the list of articulations gets very, very long, so if you aren’t controlling it from a tablet or some other controller that updates articulation assignments in real time, it can be very difficult to manage the articulations. You certainly don’t want to be finding the articulation on a drop down list approaching 100 items. So it can make sense to break things down on that basis.
> 
> The more I’ve been thinking about, the more I think I need a patch with a set of basic articulations and then a set of tracks with additional articulations. The main issue with this plan is that I’d want trills and tremolos in the basic patch and maybe harmonics and sul tasto borrowed from libraries other than BS Main. So I’d still be dealing with managing midi channels in that set up too.


Another reason S1 is peerless


View attachment 2021-12-06_14-32-06.mp4


it's not actually peerless but I like the word and dont get to use it often


----------



## jbuhler

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Another reason S1 is peerless
> 
> 
> View attachment 2021-12-06_14-32-06.mp4


I used S1 quite a lot until Logic got articulation sets. That and the fact that S1 got increasingly sluggish as my track count grew and that it didn’t like it when my pieces starting pushing 20 minutes led me to Logic. I am thinking about trying out S1 again and as I understand it I’ll need to get Version 5 when I upgrade to Monterey to access old projects. So that’s when I’ll give it another spin. 

I really like S1 for smaller projects, and miss a lot of things about it.


----------



## muziksculp

FrozenIcicle said:


> why not add surround mic


I just didn't feel I needed more ambience, given I have three mics, and a convolution Reverb. I could have used the Surround Mic at a lower volume, but I didn't even try to use it.


----------



## dhmusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Another reason S1 is peerless
> 
> 
> View attachment 2021-12-06_14-32-06.mp4
> 
> 
> it's not actually peerless but I like the word and dont get to use it often


Hopefully Cubase brings expression map updates with the new version


----------



## jadedsean

Can anyone who owns BP confirm that, the Timpani crashes the sine player when choosing the option to map to midi channels?


----------



## kornelius13

@jadedsean mine doesn't. Tried standalone and in Cubase. That's on PC


----------



## jadedsean

kornelius13 said:


> @jadedsean mine doesn't. Tried standalone and in Cubase. That's on PC


Okay, thanks man must be on my end then.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jadedsean said:


> Okay, thanks man must be on my end then.


For several days, I had difficulty with the repetitions patches and several others crashing Logic. A time or two it crashed while assigning channels. And then inexplicably it just stopped. Since then, Sine has behaved as expected. When it functions as intended, it is my favorite of all the players.


----------



## Robin

Ok, so after all the bashing and dissecting of details, I thought I'd give the new Berlin Brass Sine version a spin in a real life situation and in context of a piece that makes considerable use of the new ff layers:

View attachment Robin Hoffmann - We Have To Shake Them Off.mp3


There are still a few kinks that would need ironing out but I think you get the idea.

Some observations in practical use:


By far the best sounding Brass library I have worked with, I just love the tone, very noble
I can get very close to the sound that I'm after with the library, the different mics are a great selection to sculpt the sound
No stability issues with Sine (Win10, Studio One)
Still some issues with dynamics matching between instruments and specific articulations. Some of the Horn staccati/staccatissimi have a very wide dynamic spread between different solo Horns, which means that e.g. vel 80 is a mild mf on one horn and a strong f on another one
Still lacking dynamic layers on some articulations to make it sound good. E.g. first Trombone Marcatos have a very unpretty limbo state between mf and ff layers that sounds very problematic, better than the Kontakt version but not perfect yet
The wrong panning of the close mics sometimes only on specific articulations drives me crazy, it prevents usable mic merging and even makes it impossible to just channel switch the close mics as the articulations are wandering around
there is not a single legato patch used on the brass in this piece so can't comment on the usability of those
there are some annoyingly long releases on a few marcato patches that don't feel like actual releases but long fades or somehow timestretched (had that already in the Kontakt version)
Ram use without purge in Sine is unreasonable. This session clocks in close to 110 GB with Brass alone (mostly 3 mics on each instrument) taking almost half of it
Needed to deactivate some RR's on shorter notes due to sounding as if part of the attack was cut off
Inconsistent timing of samples, so basically needing to manually adjust the starting time for every note to be properly in time, nothing that is not also problematic in other libraries but a bit more consistency would have been nice
Had some "nasty" samples (like some that had the octave below the actual note additionally sounding) and some are still in the piece but don't play a role in a piece like this

So the bottom line: Sounds great, usability is a mixed bag, with some more dedication it could have been so much better and usable.

Robin


----------



## Evans

> Had some "nasty" samples (like some that had the octave below the actual note additionally sounding)


This is one that _really_ grinds my gears, partially because of how fixable it is yet it never has been addressed.


----------



## muziksculp

Robin said:


> Ok, so after all the bashing and dissecting of details, I thought I'd give the new Berlin Brass Sine version a spin in a real life situation and in context of a piece that makes considerable use of the new ff layers:
> 
> View attachment 64637
> 
> 
> There are still a few kinks that would need ironing out but I think you get the idea.
> 
> Some observations in practical use:
> 
> 
> By far the best sounding Brass library I have worked with, I just love the tone, very noble
> I can get very close to the sound that I'm after with the library, the different mics are a great selection to sculpt the sound
> No stability issues with Sine (Win10, Studio One)
> Still some issues with dynamics matching between instruments and specific articulations. Some of the Horn staccati/staccatissimi have a very wide dynamic spread between different solo Horns, which means that e.g. vel 80 is a mild mf on one horn and a strong f on another one
> Still lacking dynamic layers on some articulations to make it sound good. E.g. first Trombone Marcatos have a very unpretty limbo state between mf and ff layers that sounds very problematic, better than the Kontakt version but not perfect yet
> The wrong panning of the close mics sometimes only on specific articulations drives me crazy, it prevents usable mic merging and even makes it impossible to just channel switch the close mics as the articulations are wandering around
> there is not a single legato patch used on the brass in this piece so can't comment on the usability of those
> there are some annoyingly long releases on a few marcato patches that don't feel like actual releases but long fades or somehow timestretched (had that already in the Kontakt version)
> Ram use without purge in Sine is unreasonable. This session clocks in close to 110 GB with Brass alone (mostly 3 mics on each instrument) taking almost half of it
> Needed to deactivate some RR's on shorter notes due to sounding as if part of the attack was cut off
> Inconsistent timing of samples, so basically needing to manually adjust the starting time for every note to be properly in time, nothing that is not also problematic in other libraries but a bit more consistency would have been nice
> Had some "nasty" samples (like some that had the octave below the actual note additionally sounding) and some are still in the piece but don't play a role in a piece like this
> 
> So the bottom line: Sounds great, usability is a mixed bag, with some more dedication it could have been so much better and usable.
> 
> Robin


@Robin,

The Berlin Brass (SINE) sounds awesome. 

Thanks for sharing this demo, and for you detailed feedback about them. 

I would highly recommend you e-mail a list of the weaknesses you encountered, or any issues to OT Tech-Support, it would make a big difference if they are aware of them, so they can be improved/fixed. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## AndrewY

Robin said:


> Ok, so after all the bashing and dissecting of details, I thought I'd give the new Berlin Brass Sine version a spin in a real life situation and in context of a piece that makes considerable use of the new ff layers:
> 
> View attachment 64637
> 
> 
> There are still a few kinks that would need ironing out but I think you get the idea.
> 
> Some observations in practical use:
> 
> 
> By far the best sounding Brass library I have worked with, I just love the tone, very noble
> I can get very close to the sound that I'm after with the library, the different mics are a great selection to sculpt the sound
> No stability issues with Sine (Win10, Studio One)
> Still some issues with dynamics matching between instruments and specific articulations. Some of the Horn staccati/staccatissimi have a very wide dynamic spread between different solo Horns, which means that e.g. vel 80 is a mild mf on one horn and a strong f on another one
> Still lacking dynamic layers on some articulations to make it sound good. E.g. first Trombone Marcatos have a very unpretty limbo state between mf and ff layers that sounds very problematic, better than the Kontakt version but not perfect yet
> The wrong panning of the close mics sometimes only on specific articulations drives me crazy, it prevents usable mic merging and even makes it impossible to just channel switch the close mics as the articulations are wandering around
> there is not a single legato patch used on the brass in this piece so can't comment on the usability of those
> there are some annoyingly long releases on a few marcato patches that don't feel like actual releases but long fades or somehow timestretched (had that already in the Kontakt version)
> Ram use without purge in Sine is unreasonable. This session clocks in close to 110 GB with Brass alone (mostly 3 mics on each instrument) taking almost half of it
> Needed to deactivate some RR's on shorter notes due to sounding as if part of the attack was cut off
> Inconsistent timing of samples, so basically needing to manually adjust the starting time for every note to be properly in time, nothing that is not also problematic in other libraries but a bit more consistency would have been nice
> Had some "nasty" samples (like some that had the octave below the actual note additionally sounding) and some are still in the piece but don't play a role in a piece like this
> 
> So the bottom line: Sounds great, usability is a mixed bag, with some more dedication it could have been so much better and usable.
> 
> Robin


SOUNDS


Robin said:


> Ok, so after all the bashing and dissecting of details, I thought I'd give the new Berlin Brass Sine version a spin in a real life situation and in context of a piece that makes considerable use of the new ff layers:
> 
> View attachment 64637
> 
> 
> There are still a few kinks that would need ironing out but I think you get the idea.
> 
> Some observations in practical use:
> 
> 
> By far the best sounding Brass library I have worked with, I just love the tone, very noble
> I can get very close to the sound that I'm after with the library, the different mics are a great selection to sculpt the sound
> No stability issues with Sine (Win10, Studio One)
> Still some issues with dynamics matching between instruments and specific articulations. Some of the Horn staccati/staccatissimi have a very wide dynamic spread between different solo Horns, which means that e.g. vel 80 is a mild mf on one horn and a strong f on another one
> Still lacking dynamic layers on some articulations to make it sound good. E.g. first Trombone Marcatos have a very unpretty limbo state between mf and ff layers that sounds very problematic, better than the Kontakt version but not perfect yet
> The wrong panning of the close mics sometimes only on specific articulations drives me crazy, it prevents usable mic merging and even makes it impossible to just channel switch the close mics as the articulations are wandering around
> there is not a single legato patch used on the brass in this piece so can't comment on the usability of those
> there are some annoyingly long releases on a few marcato patches that don't feel like actual releases but long fades or somehow timestretched (had that already in the Kontakt version)
> Ram use without purge in Sine is unreasonable. This session clocks in close to 110 GB with Brass alone (mostly 3 mics on each instrument) taking almost half of it
> Needed to deactivate some RR's on shorter notes due to sounding as if part of the attack was cut off
> Inconsistent timing of samples, so basically needing to manually adjust the starting time for every note to be properly in time, nothing that is not also problematic in other libraries but a bit more consistency would have been nice
> Had some "nasty" samples (like some that had the octave below the actual note additionally sounding) and some are still in the piece but don't play a role in a piece like this
> 
> So the bottom line: Sounds great, usability is a mixed bag, with some more dedication it could have been so much better and usable.
> 
> Robin


Sounds great!


----------



## Jett Hitt

Thanks @Robin! You reminded me why I buy OT libraries.


----------



## Robin

Thanks guys, just uploaded an updated version on the original post where I did some more small changes, but need to go over this again tomorrow with fresh ears 



muziksculp said:


> I would highly recommend you e-mail a list of the weaknesses you encountered, or any issues to OT Tech-Support, it would make a big difference if they are aware of them, so they can be improved/fixed.


I sent out alot of emails to them already about many different issues and I'm not getting paid to do their work on the QA side of things and document every little problem in their library correctly while I'm actually trying to make music.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Robin said:


> Needed to deactivate some RR's on shorter notes due to sounding as if part of the attack was cut off


This is an issue with BS too and it is B.S. Like, it clearly sounds artificial (and hilarious if you play them fast, it sounds like a synth) I don't understand how they think that it's okay to keep in there. 

Great track as always Robin.


----------



## synergy543

Robin, that is an absolutely killer track! Wowzer! (despite any little complaints one might find).


----------



## jbuhler

Robin said:


> I sent out alot of emails to them already about many different issues and I'm not getting paid to do their work on the QA side of things and document every little problem in their library correctly while I'm actually trying to make music.


Especially as historically OT hasn't been too keen about fixing these kinds of thing.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> Especially as historically OT hasn't been too keen about fixing these kinds of thing.


Hopefully, they are on a new page now, and not the same old historic OT. We shall be able to judge them on what happens in the next weeks. Not Months.


----------



## Babe

muziksculp said:


> Hopefully, they are on a new page now, and not the same old historic OT. We shall be able to judge them on what happens in the next weeks. Not Months.


Until they show improvement, we have to assume it's the same ol'.


----------



## muziksculp

Robin said:


> Ram use without purge in Sine is unreasonable. This session clocks in close to 110 GB with Brass alone (mostly 3 mics on each instrument) taking almost half of it


Holy-SINE 110 GB for the Brass alone ! 

SINE surely needs a proper Purge function. Hopefully OT is seriously making an effort to add it in the near future.


----------



## muziksculp

Babe said:


> Until they show improvement, we have to assume it's the same ol'.


Yes, I agree. The ball is in their court. They can decide how we will judge them.


----------



## Robin

muziksculp said:


> Holy-SINE 110 GB for the Brass alone !
> 
> SINE surely needs a proper Purge function. Hopefully OT is seriously making an effort to add it in the near future.


Not quite:


> close to 110 GB with Brass alone (mostly 3 mics on each instrument) *taking almost half of it*


Still excessive...


----------



## muziksculp

Robin said:


> Not quite:
> 
> Still excessive...


Of course, it is excessive. Especially for Brass alone. Remember you can merge the 3 mics into one. and save lots of RAM, but it's a hassle to perform the Merge, it takes time, a really good Purge function would be so useful. 

I Love the Purge feature in EW-OPUS player. It's does a fantastic job, and is very well implemented. OT should learn from them.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

muziksculp said:


> Of course, it is excessive. Especially for Brass alone. Remember you can merge the 3 mics into one. and save lots of RAM, but it's a hassle to perform the Merge, it takes time, a really good Purge function would be so useful.
> 
> I Love the Purge feature in EW-OPUS player. It's does a fantastic job, and is very well implemented. OT should learn from them.


It's insane, you can purge every instance of opus in 1 click


----------



## Casiquire

That does seem excessive. The brass is the most resource intense section of the Berlin series, even more than the strings, but i still struggle to see how three mics and no legato could possibly get to 55 gigs. That's more than a third of the entire file size of the library, using only two thirds of the mics and omitting the most ram-heavy articulation. I totally believe it's the truth, i just think it's an atypical scenario. They must have had pretty much every single articulation loaded. Legato plus a handful of shorts and longs with four mics tends to put me at around the 2gb range per instrument, and if I'm using the individual patches I'm not using the ensemble ones, so that's even lighter on the system

But yes OT absolutely needs to implement a real purge.

I also agree that we shouldn't expect their entire pattern of behavior to change and for them to suddenly fix every bug instantly. One can hope that with the wider audiences they're trying to appeal to, not only will they have the funds to fix things up but they'll also have more pressure to do so; until we see that with our own eyes though, we'd be better off to assume what we see is what we get


----------



## TintoL

Robin said:


> Ok, so after all the bashing and dissecting of details, I thought I'd give the new Berlin Brass Sine version a spin in a real life situation and in context of a piece that makes considerable use of the new ff layers:
> 
> View attachment 64672
> 
> 
> There are still a few kinks that would need ironing out but I think you get the idea.


Wow, that sounds amazing. Thanks for sharing Robin.


----------



## muziksculp

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> It's insane, you can purge every instance of opus in 1 click


Yes, you can even enable the *Quick Load* mode, where everything you load is purged automatically. You start counting in MB, not GB.  

I wish SINE had that functionality.


----------



## JTB

Part of the reason I was looking forward to this Sine port was for the RAM benefits. My template that has BS with 3 mics and everything else VSL sits at around 80Gb. I suppose one would need 3 slaves running VE Pro to run a full OT template. Pretty intense.


----------



## muziksculp

JTB said:


> Part of the reason I was looking forward to this Sine port was for the RAM benefits. My template that has BS with 3 mics and everything else VSL sits at around 80Gb. I suppose one would need 3 slaves running VE Pro to run a full OT template. Pretty intense.


That won't be the case if SINE had a proper Purge feature.


----------



## JTB

I'm yet to hear a back to back of BS legato in Sine vs Kontakt. Unless I missed it.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> That does seem excessive. The brass is the most resource intense section of the Berlin series, even more than the strings, but i still struggle to see how three mics and no legato could possibly get to 55 gigs. That's more than a third of the entire file size of the library, using only two thirds of the mics and omitting the most ram-heavy articulation. I totally believe it's the truth, i just think it's an atypical scenario. They must have had pretty much every single articulation loaded. Legato plus a handful of shorts and longs with four mics tends to put me at around the 2gb range per instrument, and if I'm using the individual patches I'm not using the ensemble ones, so that's even lighter on the system
> 
> But yes OT absolutely needs to implement a real purge.
> 
> I also agree that we shouldn't expect their entire pattern of behavior to change and for them to suddenly fix every bug instantly. One can hope that with the wider audiences they're trying to appeal to, not only will they have the funds to fix things up but they'll also have more pressure to do so; until we see that with our own eyes though, we'd be better off to assume what we see is what we get


It’s not atypical if you want to use one track per instrument with expression / articulation maps. Then you put all the patches into the same SINE instance…which SINE is total shit at handling from a RAM perspective. Even if you never use an articulation in that instance, as soon as you use ANY articulation, SINE will load ALL articulations fully.


----------



## JTB

So without a purge function and up until 2 weeks ago when the Berlin series was ported to Sine,
to run a Berlin series template would cost 5000+euros for the samples (without SFX libraries) and 2 additional computers running VE Pro with 64Gb Ram min. @ $2000 a pop.
Total: USD $10,000
That is an enormous amount of money for a bug plagued template and for the results I have heard.

When I think about it, I can't think of one bug, glitch or thing that needs to be _worked around_ in my entire VSL template. Not one!.

How is it that VSL Elite Strings has more articulations with soft releases, 4 different attacks, the list goes on, and with all mics sits at 9Gb. BS sits at 90Gb with 3 mics.


----------



## jbuhler

Ok, Logic users, @Dewdman42 has helped me figure out which of his scripts will be useful for those of us using articulation sets. The Event Chaser should do the trick.









EventChaser · Wiki · Steve Schow / Channelizer · GitLab


LogicPro Scripter script used to channelize articulations by articulationID.




gitlab.com





So now we can set up all the articulations we want in one instance of Sine—say all the first violin articulations and even add to that the Special Bows—and that script will propogate the CCs across all the channels. All the articulations for that instance will reside in the articulations set.

This requires running the Logic Scripter as a midi FX on the track for each of the Sine instances where you have more than one midi channel. I'm not sure what the approved method for installing the script is, but I just opened Scripter in the the MidiFX in the channel strip, copied the text of the Event Chaser script into the script editor and then pressed "run script." That should configure it. And you should be able to mix and match midi channels in a Sine instance to your hearts content.

Let me know if you run into any issues installing it.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I will have to trim some fat from this setup, but currently running a full orchestral template with 1 mic enabled, Logic is sitting at about 53GB. There are a few additional instruments loaded: Tina, JB Violin, Walker 1955. My Mac Pro 12 Core (5,1) only has 64GB of RAM, and this template is taxing it pretty heavily, more so than anything I have ever thrown at it before. I seriously doubt that it will handle a full orchestral tutti. It's time for a new Mac, if ever they release them. I may build a template in VePro and see if that alleviates some of the stress on the CPU. I have found in the past that it uses the cores a lot more efficiently than Logic. Whatever the case, it takes some serious horsepower to run these libraries.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I will have to trim some fat from this setup, but currently running a full orchestral template with 1 mic enabled, Logic is sitting at about 53GB. There are a few additional instruments loaded: Tina, JB Violin, Walker 1955. My Mac Pro 12 Core (5,1) only has 64GB of RAM, and this template is taxing it pretty heavily, more so than anything I have ever thrown at it before. I seriously doubt that it will handle a full orchestral tutti. It's time for a new Mac, if ever they release them. I may build a template in VePro and see if that alleviates some of the stress on the CPU. I have found in the past that it uses the cores a lot more efficiently than Logic. Whatever the case, it takes some serious horsepower to run these libraries.


Yes, even with purge in Kontakt I struggled to get Berlin Strings to work well at 64GB. I found I had to freeze things and be very judicious with mic positions if I was going to be able to load the other sections of an orchestra, and I wasn't even trying to handle something like Berlin Brass. So far BS in Sine has been better in general than BS in Kontakt from a memory standpoint, but it's also true that I'm now starting at 128GB and so have not yet been pressed to make choices about what to disable in the absence of purge.


----------



## A.Heppelmann

Jett Hitt said:


> I will have to trim some fat from this setup, but currently running a full orchestral template with 1 mic enabled, Logic is sitting at about 53GB. There are a few additional instruments loaded: Tina, JB Violin, Walker 1955. My Mac Pro 12 Core (5,1) only has 64GB of RAM, and this template is taxing it pretty heavily, more so than anything I have ever thrown at it before. I seriously doubt that it will handle a full orchestral tutti. It's time for a new Mac, if ever they release them. I may build a template in VePro and see if that alleviates some of the stress on the CPU. I have found in the past that it uses the cores a lot more efficiently than Logic. Whatever the case, it takes some serious horsepower to run these libraries.


This is what forced me to upgrade to 128 gb RAM a few months ago, even with the Kontakt versions. I found that VEP definitely helps (though I'm running Cubase on a PC). And oddly enough I've had some issues with SINE in Cubase, but none whatsoever in VEP.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> Yes, even with purge in Kontakt I struggled to get Berlin Strings to work well at 64GB. I found I had to freeze things and be very judicious with mic positions if I was going to be able to load the other sections of an orchestra, and I wasn't even trying to handle something like Berlin Brass. So far BS in Sine has been better in general than BS in Kontakt from a memory standpoint, but it's also true that I'm now starting at 128GB and so have not yet been pressed to make choices about what to disable in the absence of purge.





A.Heppelmann said:


> This is what forced me to upgrade to 128 gb RAM a few months ago, even with the Kontakt versions. I found that VEP definitely helps (though I'm running Cubase on a PC). And oddly enough I've had some issues with SINE in Cubase, but none whatsoever in VEP.


I could spend $250 and upgrade this thing to 128GB, but I hate to put any more money in it. Even with the additional RAM, I don't think that the CPU will handle it. Maybe I should just upgrade it and then slave it later when I get a new Mac. I may have to have it as a slave anyway because Apple may not offer more than 64GB. Even if they do, you'll probably have to sell your firstborn to afford it.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I could spend $250 and upgrade this thing to 128GB, but I hate to put any more money in it. Even with the additional RAM, I don't think that the CPU will handle it. Maybe I should just upgrade it and then slave it later when I get a new Mac. I may have to have it as a slave anyway because Apple may not offer more than 64GB. Even if they do, you'll probably have to sell your firstborn to afford it.


Or if you think your current machine can run 128GB of samples if it's not having to also run the DAW, then it would make a good deal of sense to upgrade it in the short term and turn it into a sample server when the new Apple desktops come out.


----------



## Scalms

Robin said:


> Ok, so after all the bashing and dissecting of details, I thought I'd give the new Berlin Brass Sine version a spin in a real life situation and in context of a piece that makes considerable use of the new ff layers:
> 
> View attachment 64672
> 
> 
> There are still a few kinks that would need ironing out but I think you get the idea.
> 
> Some observations in practical use:
> 
> 
> By far the best sounding Brass library I have worked with, I just love the tone, very noble
> I can get very close to the sound that I'm after with the library, the different mics are a great selection to sculpt the sound
> No stability issues with Sine (Win10, Studio One)
> Still some issues with dynamics matching between instruments and specific articulations. Some of the Horn staccati/staccatissimi have a very wide dynamic spread between different solo Horns, which means that e.g. vel 80 is a mild mf on one horn and a strong f on another one
> Still lacking dynamic layers on some articulations to make it sound good. E.g. first Trombone Marcatos have a very unpretty limbo state between mf and ff layers that sounds very problematic, better than the Kontakt version but not perfect yet
> The wrong panning of the close mics sometimes only on specific articulations drives me crazy, it prevents usable mic merging and even makes it impossible to just channel switch the close mics as the articulations are wandering around
> there is not a single legato patch used on the brass in this piece so can't comment on the usability of those
> there are some annoyingly long releases on a few marcato patches that don't feel like actual releases but long fades or somehow timestretched (had that already in the Kontakt version)
> Ram use without purge in Sine is unreasonable. This session clocks in close to 110 GB with Brass alone (mostly 3 mics on each instrument) taking almost half of it
> Needed to deactivate some RR's on shorter notes due to sounding as if part of the attack was cut off
> Inconsistent timing of samples, so basically needing to manually adjust the starting time for every note to be properly in time, nothing that is not also problematic in other libraries but a bit more consistency would have been nice
> Had some "nasty" samples (like some that had the octave below the actual note additionally sounding) and some are still in the piece but don't play a role in a piece like this
> 
> So the bottom line: Sounds great, usability is a mixed bag, with some more dedication it could have been so much better and usable.
> 
> Robin


Great job, they should have asked you to write a new Sine demo!

honestly, don’t know why more movies aren’t made at Teldex, it can be very cinematic, perfect sweet spot between dry and wet, small and large.


----------



## Dewdman42

jbuhler said:


> I'm not sure what the approved method for installing the script is, but I just opened Scripter in the the MidiFX in the channel strip, copied the text of the Event Chaser script into the script editor and then pressed "run script."


That is definitely one way. 

Once you do that once, you can use the Save command in the Scripter UI to save it to your local scripts area, then you won't have to copy and paste it anymore you can just load the script and don't have to "run script" or anything either. And of course you can save a LogicPro Patch with it in the channel strip, etc.. it will all work and be remembered.

One advantage of saving as a LogicPro patch or loading the script as above; is that if you adjusted any of the little checkbox choices in the Scripter UI, those settings will be remembered.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Robin said:


> Ok, so after all the bashing and dissecting of details, I thought I'd give the new Berlin Brass Sine version a spin in a real life situation and in context of a piece that makes considerable use of the new ff layers:
> 
> View attachment 64672
> 
> 
> There are still a few kinks that would need ironing out but I think you get the idea.
> 
> Some observations in practical use:
> 
> 
> By far the best sounding Brass library I have worked with, I just love the tone, very noble
> I can get very close to the sound that I'm after with the library, the different mics are a great selection to sculpt the sound
> No stability issues with Sine (Win10, Studio One)
> Still some issues with dynamics matching between instruments and specific articulations. Some of the Horn staccati/staccatissimi have a very wide dynamic spread between different solo Horns, which means that e.g. vel 80 is a mild mf on one horn and a strong f on another one
> Still lacking dynamic layers on some articulations to make it sound good. E.g. first Trombone Marcatos have a very unpretty limbo state between mf and ff layers that sounds very problematic, better than the Kontakt version but not perfect yet
> The wrong panning of the close mics sometimes only on specific articulations drives me crazy, it prevents usable mic merging and even makes it impossible to just channel switch the close mics as the articulations are wandering around
> there is not a single legato patch used on the brass in this piece so can't comment on the usability of those
> there are some annoyingly long releases on a few marcato patches that don't feel like actual releases but long fades or somehow timestretched (had that already in the Kontakt version)
> Ram use without purge in Sine is unreasonable. This session clocks in close to 110 GB with Brass alone (mostly 3 mics on each instrument) taking almost half of it
> Needed to deactivate some RR's on shorter notes due to sounding as if part of the attack was cut off
> Inconsistent timing of samples, so basically needing to manually adjust the starting time for every note to be properly in time, nothing that is not also problematic in other libraries but a bit more consistency would have been nice
> Had some "nasty" samples (like some that had the octave below the actual note additionally sounding) and some are still in the piece but don't play a role in a piece like this
> 
> So the bottom line: Sounds great, usability is a mixed bag, with some more dedication it could have been so much better and usable.
> 
> Robin


Damn, this sounds excellent man. Great work! Do you also have cinebrass just curious? Would be interesting to hear parts of this with cinebrass to compare...I have felt like from everything I've heard, Cinebrass gets that Star Wars/John Williams sound down the best but this demo from Berlin brass really really sounds like empire strikes back or return of the Jedi or something....really nice noble sounds. Bummed I couldn't afford the half off sale! Damn GAS


----------



## Robin

Thanks again for the kind words!


Baronvonheadless said:


> Do you also have cinebrass just curious? Would be interesting to hear parts of this with cinebrass to compare...I have felt like from everything I've heard, Cinebrass gets that Star Wars/John Williams sound down the best but this demo from Berlin brass really really sounds like empire strikes back or return of the Jedi or something


I don't have Cinebrass (and I think we are still in a commercial thread by OT here) and personally, I don't feel that sonically this mockup sounds anything like the original Star Wars scores. I'm using a few writing/orchestration techniques that have been used by Williams in these scores, but that is more on the composition side of things.



Scalms said:


> honestly, don’t know why more movies aren’t made at Teldex, it can be very cinematic, perfect sweet spot between dry and wet, small and large.


Teldex sounds great indeed, have recorded there several times, however I wouldn't say that a sample production which for instance digitally and unnaturally stacks several release tails at once plus uses heavy signal chain processing and external reverbs is still a good representative of the original room sound. Sure, it makes a big difference on the individual samples if the room sounds great to begin with but this mockup does barely resemble how the room actually sounds in a tutti context.



Casiquire said:


> but i still struggle to see how three mics and no legato could possibly get to 55 gigs. That's more than a third of the entire file size of the library, using only two thirds of the mics and omitting the most ram-heavy articulation.


I'm not omitting any articulation, the instruments are all fully loaded in my template and I don't manually unload what I don't need because it would take too much time, so yes, there are a lot of unused samples clogging up the RAM which is why proper purging would be really needed.


----------



## Baronvonheadless

Robin said:


> Thanks again for the kind words!
> 
> I don't have Cinebrass (and I think we are still in a commercial thread by OT here) and personally, I don't feel that sonically this mockup sounds anything like the original Star Wars scores. I'm using a few writing/orchestration techniques that have been used by Williams in these scores, but that is more on the composition side of things.
> 
> 
> Teldex sounds great indeed, have recorded there several times, however I wouldn't say that a sample production which for instance digitally and unnaturally stacks several release tails at once plus uses heavy signal chain processing and external reverbs is still a good representative of the original room sound. Sure, it makes a big difference on the individual samples if the room sounds great to begin with but this mockup does barely resemble how the room actually sounds in a tutti context.
> 
> 
> I'm not omitting any articulation, the instruments are all fully loaded in my template and I don't manually unload what I don't need because it would take too much time, so yes, there are a lot of unused samples clogging up the RAM which is why proper purging would be really needed.


My mistake, I’ve been replying to too many threads thought this was chained to the non commercial. 

Great mock up man. Quick question regarding OT, if you could choose one or two patches in Berlin brass to go along with junkie xl, which would u choose? I have most of junkie xl a la cart


----------



## Jose7822

Has anyone gotten the free Berlin Orchestra license that was promised to those who have the full Berlin series in SINE?


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Robin said:


> Thanks again for the kind words!
> 
> I don't have Cinebrass (and I think we are still in a commercial thread by OT here) and personally, I don't feel that sonically this mockup sounds anything like the original Star Wars scores. I'm using a few writing/orchestration techniques that have been used by Williams in these scores, but that is more on the composition side of things.
> 
> 
> Teldex sounds great indeed, have recorded there several times, however I wouldn't say that a sample production which for instance digitally and unnaturally stacks several release tails at once plus uses heavy signal chain processing and external reverbs is still a good representative of the original room sound. Sure, it makes a big difference on the individual samples if the room sounds great to begin with but this mockup does barely resemble how the room actually sounds in a tutti context.
> 
> 
> I'm not omitting any articulation, the instruments are all fully loaded in my template and I don't manually unload what I don't need because it would take too much time, so yes, there are a lot of unused samples clogging up the RAM which is why proper purging would be really needed.


Really enjoyed your mockup! Sounds amazing, both sonically and orchestration-wise. I could definitely hear one or two of John Williams' "techniques". I didn't think of the original Star Wars, but some moments reminded of the newer soundtracks of the sequel trilogy.

The sound of Teldex is indeed amazing and doesn't have to hide from Sony and the other venues. Is this just the mix of the three microphones or did you use reverb and other processing? Which microphones did you use, as well as the other libraries?

Only thing really bothering and holding me back from buying is the RAM count. I primarily use VSL's dry libraries. They have a ridiculously low footprint.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Jose7822 said:


> Has anyone gotten the free Berlin Orchestra license that was promised to those who have the full Berlin series in SINE?


Because I had never seen this officially mentioned by OT, I asked somewhere earlier in this thread about it. Someone linked a message from someone at OT (maybe Tobias) mentioning it, but I still haven't ever seen it mentioned in an official post. So I remain skeptical that it is happening.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Jett Hitt said:


> Because I had never seen this officially mentioned by OT, I asked somewhere earlier in this thread about it. Someone linked a message from someone at OT (maybe Tobias) mentioning it, but I still haven't ever seen it mentioned in an official post. So I remain skeptical that it is happening.


Better stock up on the popcorn if that's the case....


----------



## Rudianos

Jose7822 said:


> Has anyone gotten the free Berlin Orchestra license that was promised to those who have the full Berlin series in SINE?


https://vi-control.net/community/th...ith-a-special-intro-offer.114122/post-4935996 Just a matter of time.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Rudianos said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/th...ith-a-special-intro-offer.114122/post-4935996 Just a matter of time.


I stand corrected.


----------



## Jose7822

Rudianos said:


> https://vi-control.net/community/th...ith-a-special-intro-offer.114122/post-4935996 Just a matter of time.


I know. You posted this before. Someone else reached out to OT and was told that activation codes (or whatever method they’re going with) would start being sent from December 6th. Because of that, I was wondering if anyone had received it yet, or if they noticed the Berlin Orchestra license on their account.


----------



## JTB

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Only thing really bothering and holding me back from buying is the RAM count.


I would be intrigued to know how much RAM a Berlin series with add-ons setup actually uses. With all arts. and mics loaded it must be close to 400Gb +/-. So 4 slave computers should almost do it.


----------



## Breaker

Jose7822 said:


> I know. You posted this before. Someone else reached out to OT and was told that activation codes (or whatever method they’re going with) would start being sent from December 6th. Because of that, I was wondering if anyone had received it yet, or if they noticed the Berlin Orchestra license on their account.


I guess you're referring to me. This is the email sent by OT 18th of December (red square is mine).
I'm still not sure what exactly does the wording "FROM December 6" mean? On that day? No earlier than?
Then again, I would much rather have a proper purge function than watered down version of the flagship collection.


----------



## Evans

Breaker said:


> I'm still not sure what exactly does the wording "FROM December 6" mean? On that day? No earlier than?


I imagine "no earlier than." Likely changing some entitlement logic or manually correcting some data, and licenses will start rolling out as of the 6th.


----------



## Jose7822

Breaker said:


> I guess you're referring to me. This is the email sent by OT 18th of December (red square is mine).
> I'm still not sure what exactly does the wording "FROM December 6" mean? On that day? No earlier than?
> Then again, I would much rather have a proper purge function than watered down version of the flagship collection.


Yes, I was referring to your post. Thanks for attaching their reply.

So you haven’t gotten it either…I wonder why it takes so long for them to honor it. In all honesty, I just want the harp from Berlin Orchestra. I used to use the harp found in EWSO, but I‘ve deleted everything EW from my system. Of course, there’s the OT Harp, but it’s still in Kontakt and I’d rather wait until it gets ported to SINE. Anyway, I was hoping we would be able to access Berlin Orchestra by now.


----------



## Breaker

The email wasn't actually a reply (as I never asked anything) but just general an acknowledgement I thought they have sent to everybody who has Berlin mains for Kontakt.



The harp is actually a good point. I have CineHarp but maybe the Berlin harp (even the lite version) will sit better with other Teldex stuff, especially on background.


----------



## muziksculp

I wonder when it would be possible to get the Berlin Orchestra Berklee for free ? 

I have all the Kontakt and SINE versions of Berlin Orch.


----------



## Robin

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Really enjoyed your mockup! Sounds amazing, both sonically and orchestration-wise. I could definitely hear one or two of John Williams' "techniques". I didn't think of the original Star Wars, but some moments reminded of the newer soundtracks of the sequel trilogy.
> 
> The sound of Teldex is indeed amazing and doesn't have to hide from Sony and the other venues. Is this just the mix of the three microphones or did you use reverb and other processing? Which microphones did you use, as well as the other libraries?
> 
> Only thing really bothering and holding me back from buying is the RAM count. I primarily use VSL's dry libraries. They have a ridiculously low footprint.


Thanks alot! Too many questions not suitable for a commercial thread. I answered them here.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Robin said:


> Thanks alot! Too many questions not suitable for a commercial thread. I answered them here.


Thanks for the detailed explanation in the other thread. Very much appreciated.

On the other hand, I would like to hear the library "out of the box". Would you mind sharing a "dry" version / excerpt without any other processing? Or maybe just the brass?


----------



## bfreepro

Jett Hitt said:


> Because I had never seen this officially mentioned by OT, I asked somewhere earlier in this thread about it. Someone linked a message from someone at OT (maybe Tobias) mentioning it, but I still haven't ever seen it mentioned in an official post. So I remain skeptical that it is happening.


OT has never been known for their swiftness. I usually expect any announcement to take about two years or so until it comes to fruition lol


----------



## Robin

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation in the other thread. Very much appreciated.
> 
> On the other hand, I would like to hear the library "out of the box". Would you mind sharing a "dry" version / excerpt without any other processing? Or maybe just the brass?


Excerpt of the Brass Stem:

Out of the Box:

View attachment Berlin Brass_OOTB.mp3


FX Chain+Reverbs:

View attachment Berlin Brass_WET.mp3


----------



## Jose7822

bfreepro said:


> OT has never been known for their swiftness. I usually expect any announcement to take about two years or so until it comes to fruition lol


Man, I came into this thread super positive, thinking I had made the right choice going OT. Now, with everything that has been said here, you guys are making me doubt it. Maybe I should’ve went with VSL? 🤔😩😕


----------



## Rudianos

Jose7822 said:


> Man, I came into this thread super positive, thinking I had made the right choice going OT. Now, with everything that has been said here, you guys are making me doubt it. Maybe I should’ve went with VSL? 🤔😩😕


nah, you made the right choice. take everything here with a grain of salt.


----------



## bfreepro

Jose7822 said:


> Man, I came into this thread super positive, thinking I had made the right choice going OT. Now, with everything that has been said here, you guys are making me doubt it. Maybe I should’ve went with VSL? 🤔😩😕


They’re a good company, I just constantly get the impression they have a MUCH smaller team. I mean it did take years for them to port Berlin series to sine, and now it’s got all these bugs. BUT! I absolutely have confidence in them, I’m not here to bash them, just being realistic. My comment there was half serious, half joking, because it did take a couple years to port them to sine, but in regards to the Berklee collection, it will definitely not take that long, don’t worry. I got a response from support this morning about the bugs I reported with the mains and they’ve already updated the brass. I have faith they will deliver. Don’t worry


----------



## Jose7822

Rudianos said:


> nah, you made the right choice. take everything here with a grain of salt.


I really hope so. I mean, I LOVE the sound of their recordings. To my ears, they have the best sound out of all of the sample libraries out there. However, having good customer service and keeping their promises is also important.

Last year, when I asked about OT as a company, people had nothing but good things to say about them. That’s why when I saw the bundle package at the BF price I immediately jumped on it. I know that I won’t find a perfect company. Perfect doesn’t exist in this world, but the things I’m seeing here are not much different from the place I left! The only comfort I have thus far is that the libraries do sound bad ass when they work as intended. Hopefully they don’t take two years to fix them 😂😅.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Jose7822 said:


> I really hope so. I mean, I LOVE the sound of their recordings. To my ears, they have the best sound out of all of the sample libraries out there. However, having good customer service and keeping their promises is also important.
> 
> Last year, when I asked about OT as a company, people had nothing but good things to say about them. That’s why when I saw the bundle package at the BF price I immediately jumped on it. I know that I won’t find a perfect company. Perfect doesn’t exist in this world, but the things I’m seeing here are not much different from the place I left! The only comfort I have thus far is that the libraries do sound bad ass when they work as intended. Hopefully they don’t take two years to fix them 😂😅.


There are things to not like about OT: They are very slow to fix things, if at all. Their libraries are really pricey. They have the bedside manner of a troll (customer service). But despite all this, for my money, they make the best sounding libraries of anyone. They did release these ports too soon, but jeez do they sound great (except when they don't). I just had to order 128GB of RAM to run them, but ultimately, I am delighted that I finally own them. A lot of the bitching here is pretty hyperbolic.


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Robin said:


> Excerpt of the Brass Stem:
> 
> Out of the Box:
> 
> View attachment Berlin Brass_OOTB.mp3
> 
> 
> FX Chain+Reverbs:
> 
> View attachment Berlin Brass_WET.mp3


You're quick! Very helpful. Thanks a lot. Again: Love the John Williams style. 

I actually prefer the dry version. Sounds really, really good.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

View attachment 2021-12-08_11-45-50.mp4


I guess I just don't understand anything anymore.


----------



## JTB

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> View attachment 2021-12-08_11-45-50.mp4
> 
> 
> I guess I just don't understand anything anymore.


Maybe because you disabled the other 2 dynamic layers, there is nothing for the legato transitions to crossfade with. So the slider makes no difference. Maybe.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

JTB said:


> Maybe because you disabled the other 2 dynamic layers, there is nothing for the legato transitions to crossfade with. So the slider makes no difference. Maybe.


god forbid I wanted an mf legato transition


----------



## bfreepro

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> god forbid I wanted an mf legato transition


“God forbid I wanted a motha-f**kin legato transition!!!!” -Samuel L. Jackson, when asked about the Berlin Strings Sine Port

But in all seriousness I too am frustrated with some things about the sine port tho, I feel your pain. I’m happy support has been responsive and are updating things though


----------



## Babe

I think that was said by Matthew McConaughey. He's must smoother. Jackson is more of a SFz type.


----------



## dhmusic

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> god forbid I wanted an mf legato transition


They didn't have any mf legatos left to spare after the soloist series


----------



## dcoscina

Rudianos said:


> nah, you made the right choice. take everything here with a grain of salt.


Exactly.. some folks here could piss off the Pope as the old saying goes


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

dcoscina said:


> Exactly.. some folks here could piss off the Pope as the old saying goes


OR you could heed the concerns of your peers - some of whom may the better part of a decade's of experience with some of these libraries.


----------



## JTB

Jose7822 said:


> Man, I came into this thread super positive, thinking I had made the right choice going OT. Now, with everything that has been said here, you guys are making me doubt it. Maybe I should’ve went with VSL? 🤔😩😕


If you got the berlin Series half price, you got a good deal. I would probably part with the 10% extra and go with the Kontakt version if your setup can handle the extra RAM. Most of the negativity in this thread (at least from me) has been directed at OT's pricing. They price like their the gold standard. IMO they are far from it.
Their libraries are quite difficult to work with due to QC, balancing and software shortfalls. The sounds are nice out of the box. But constructing actual musical phrases out of those sounds can be frustrating.

Libraries from a certain other company work like a well tuned musical instrument. BS for me feels more like a bunch of nice sounding samples.


----------



## dhmusic

JTB said:


> Their libraries are quite difficult to work with due to QC, balancing and software shortfalls. The sounds are nice out of the box. But constructing actual musical phrases out of those sounds can be frustrating.
> 
> Libraries from a certain other company work like a well tuned musical instrument. BS for me feels more like a bunch of nice sounding samples.


You make it sound like a one-shot rompler


----------



## JTB

dhmusic said:


> You make it sound like a one-shot rompler


The UX is not exactly fluent. Using BS is a grind.


----------



## dhmusic

JTB said:


> The UX is not exactly fluent. Using BS is a grind.


Can't argue with that lol. Worth it for the details though imo. There's a lot to appreciate in their libraries. It can take years to grasp all of it though.


----------



## JTB

I appreciate the samples. The thing is, a lot of the samples don't appreciate each other.
Like the other company's products have this thing where no matter what articulation has just played, you get a legato transition going into the next note.
In BS, if the 2 articulations are in the same instance of Kontakt, the second one won't even play until the tail of the first one has faded out, let alone, get a legato transition.


----------



## dhmusic

JTB said:


> I appreciate the samples. The thing is, a lot of the samples don't appreciate each other.
> Like the other company's products have this thing where no matter what articulation has just played, you get a legato transition going into the next note.
> In BS, if the 2 articulations are in the same instance of Kontakt, the second one won't even play until the tail of the first one has faded out, let alone, get a legato transition.


I guess I see that as a plus. It can feel pretty clever figuring out how to connect everything seamlessly. Question is, does it sound better?


----------



## Casiquire

Jose7822 said:


> Man, I came into this thread super positive, thinking I had made the right choice going OT. Now, with everything that has been said here, you guys are making me doubt it. Maybe I should’ve went with VSL? 🤔😩😕


Nah they're great products. Do you like the way they sound?


----------



## jadedsean

While OT are great company I do wish they would concentrate more on there QC issues before releasing new products. It’s just a slap in the face when you buy on the presumption of seeing there walkthroughs that everything will work as described. 

Somebody wrote here that OT have a small team and that’s why updates take over year sometimes. Sorry but I don’t buy this, they seem to release new products on a regular basis and not care to much about there QC issues in others, I get it, cash is king and fixing these issues brings no money in but for there loyal customer base this would strengthen relationships I feel.


----------



## Babe

JTB said:


> I appreciate the samples. The thing is, a lot of the samples don't appreciate each other.
> Like the other company's products have this thing where no matter what articulation has just played, you get a legato transition going into the next note.
> In BS, if the 2 articulations are in the same instance of Kontakt, the second one won't even play until the tail of the first one has faded out, let alone, get a legato transition.


If this were true, then a short note which follows a sustain, would be off quite a bit and would be very noticeable. How about a series of quarter notes using sustain? Everyone on this board would notice that succeeding notes were off.


----------



## dcoscina

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> OR you could heed the concerns of your peers - some of whom may the better part of a decade's of experience with some of these libraries.


Perhaps you should not presume to know who you are talking to before making assertions like the above. I’ve been using music tech since the mid-80s.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

jadedsean said:


> While OT are great company I do wish they would concentrate more on there QC issues before releasing new products. It’s just a slap in the face when you buy on the presumption of seeing there walkthroughs that everything will work as described.
> 
> Somebody wrote here that OT have a small team and that’s why updates take over year sometimes. Sorry but I don’t buy this, they seem to release new products on a regular basis and not care to much about there QC issues in others, I get it, cash is king and fixing these issues brings no money in but for there loyal customer base this would strengthen relationships I feel.


You have have a small team of developers in india but a large team of musicians in germany sampling


----------



## ism

Jose7822 said:


> Man, I came into this thread super positive, thinking I had made the right choice going OT. Now, with everything that has been said here, you guys are making me doubt it. Maybe I should’ve went with VSL? 🤔😩😕


Ah no, OT is still best in class. It's just that most of the benefits of the Sine version will come in the larger picture, while 99.9% of the value of the samples are already there in Kontakt, and build into people's expectations. 

So we're getting all the techyness about the very small to reasonably small technical issues inevitable in a project as major as Sine, and non of the enthusing for all the 99.9% more significant musicality that this library does deliver. 

They're still valid issues. But all the (99.9% of) positive stuff has been said, over and over and across many years, and on many other thread. Which makes it hard to get a sense of proportion.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

dcoscina said:


> Perhaps you should not presume to know who you are talking to before making assertions like the above. I’ve been using music tech since the mid-80s.


I don't think you read my post as intended


----------



## jadedsean

FrozenIcicle said:


> You have have a small team of developers in india but a large team of musicians in germany sampling


Is this true?


----------



## Jose7822

Casiquire said:


> Nah they're great products. Do you like the way they sound?


Oh, I love the sound of their libraries. That’s not my concern. It’s more their QC and customer care that I’m worried about, especially given the prices of these libraries. You would think that at this price point you get a higher grade product that’s been thoroughly tested, with amazing customer service. It’s still too early for me to know since this is my first time using OT libraries. I guess we’ll see.

For example, I’ve NEVER had a problem with UAD. And the one time I had to contact their customer support, because one of my cards went dead, they completely and immediately took care of it at no cost. That’s why with them I understand why they charge a premium for their products, and I gladly pay for it because they stand behind them 100%. Rarely are there bugs, and when there are, they take care of them in a timely manner. Obviously they are a different type of software company, but the fact that they are super professional still remains.

I wished more software developers were as meticulous as UAD, and some are (i.e. FabFilter is another company I fully trust), but most of them have the “release it first, fix it later” mentality, unfortunately. Even the gaming industry has become this way, when back in the day they didn’t release games until they were ready (at least on consoles).

Anyway, I hope I’m wrong and that OT realizes that releasing unfinished products, not only deteriorates customer relations, but also hinders their customers from having the best experience possible with their products. There’s a ton of imperfections that shouldn’t have made it past QC, because that’s how obvious they are, but I’ll try to remain hopeful that OT will fixed them in a timely manner. I just wished they had taken more time to get it right from the start.


----------



## dcoscina

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I don't think you read my post as intended


Let’s be honest- there are some people on this site who revel in talking trash about every single library. I honestly don’t know when they have the time to actually compose music…


----------



## tim727

Is it really true that they have such a small team? To be honest I have no idea how big their team is, but I just know it's big enough to put out a new library like every two weeks.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

tim727 said:


> Is it really true that they have such a small team? To be honest I have no idea how big their team is, but I just know it's big enough to put out a new library like every two weeks.


I don't think so...but you never know. They couldn't update a single webpage to note that mic merging didn't work for an entire year (BSS). Not exactly the hardest of developer tasks. Their audio demos also keep looping instead of navigating to the next demo in the playlist. They also still list a "legato" section even when the instrument doesn't have any legatos (quite misleading) - just re-using a template that can't adapt. Maybe web development is not a core competency for them.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

dcoscina said:


> Let’s be honest- there are some people on this site who revel in taking shit about every single library. I honestly don’t know when they have the time to actually compose music…


when many sample companies are at best anti-consumer and at worst flat out violate consumer law, it's sometimes their only recourse.

At least for me I have tried to post examples to accompany my complaints.


----------



## JTB

ism said:


> Ah no, OT is still best in class. It's just that most of the benefits of the Sine version will come in the larger picture, while 99.9% of the value of the samples are already there in Kontakt, and build into people's expectations.
> 
> So we're getting all the techyness about the very small to reasonably small technical issues inevitable in a project as major as Sine, and non of the enthusing for all the 99.9% more significant musicality that this library does deliver.
> 
> They're still valid issues. But all the (99.9% of) positive stuff has been said, over and over and across many years, and on many other thread. Which makes it hard to get a sense of proportion.



But the 99.9% positive stuff is getting outdated. There are much better products on the market these days by companies that consider "very small to reasonably small technical issues" to be paramount.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

jadedsean said:


> Is this true?


It’s how a lot of small companies do it


----------



## dhmusic

JTB said:


> But the 99.9% positive stuff is getting outdated. There are much better products on the market these days by companies that consider "very small to reasonably small technical issues" to be paramount.


Too bad they're only good for sketching


----------



## Casiquire

Jose7822 said:


> Oh, I love the sound of their libraries. That’s not my concern. It’s more their QC and customer care that I’m worried about, especially given the prices of these libraries. You would think that at this price point you get a higher grade product that’s been thoroughly tested, with amazing customer service. It’s still too early for me to know since this is my first time using OT libraries. I guess we’ll see.
> 
> For example, I’ve NEVER had a problem with UAD. And the one time I had to contact their customer support, because one of my cards went dead, they completely and immediately took care of it at no cost. That’s why with them I understand why they charge a premium for their products, and I gladly pay for it because they stand behind them 100%. Rarely are there bugs, and when there are, they take care of them in a timely manner. Obviously they are a different type of software company, but the fact that they are super professional still remains.
> 
> I wished more software developers were as meticulous as UAD, and some are (i.e. FabFilter is another company I fully trust), but most of them have the “release it first, fix it later” mentality, unfortunately. Even the gaming industry has become this way, when back in the day they didn’t release games until they were ready (at least on consoles).
> 
> Anyway, I hope I’m wrong and that OT realizes that releasing unfinished products, not only deteriorates customer relations, but also hinders their customers from having the best experience possible with their products. There’s a ton of imperfections that shouldn’t have made it past QC, because that’s how obvious they are, but I’ll try to remain hopeful that OT will fixed them in a timely manner. I just wished they had taken more time to get it right from the start.


My point is, if you weren't in these forums, i think you'd be pretty satisfied with your purchase. Don't let this madness ruin your fun


----------



## Raphioli

Jose7822 said:


> Oh, I love the sound of their libraries. That’s not my concern. It’s more their QC and customer care that I’m worried about, especially given the prices of these libraries. You would think that at this price point you get a higher grade product that’s been thoroughly tested, with amazing customer service. It’s still too early for me to know since this is my first time using OT libraries. I guess we’ll see.
> 
> For example, I’ve NEVER had a problem with UAD. And the one time I had to contact their customer support, because one of my cards went dead, they completely and immediately took care of it at no cost. That’s why with them I understand why they charge a premium for their products, and I gladly pay for it because they stand behind them 100%. Rarely are there bugs, and when there are, they take care of them in a timely manner. Obviously they are a different type of software company, but the fact that they are super professional still remains.
> 
> I wished more software developers were as meticulous as UAD, and some are (i.e. FabFilter is another company I fully trust), but most of them have the “release it first, fix it later” mentality, unfortunately. Even the gaming industry has become this way, when back in the day they didn’t release games until they were ready (at least on consoles).
> 
> Anyway, I hope I’m wrong and that OT realizes that releasing unfinished products, not only deteriorates customer relations, but also hinders their customers from having the best experience possible with their products. There’s a ton of imperfections that shouldn’t have made it past QC, because that’s how obvious they are, but I’ll try to remain hopeful that OT will fixed them in a timely manner. I just wished they had taken more time to get it right from the start.


I do share your concern.

I was looking through a different thread.
The devs there (even though they seem like one of the smaller devs) they were very responsive and provided clear ETA for bug fixes in a timely manner.
I honestly wished OT was like them. (Obviously I'm not going to name them here)


----------



## muziksculp

dcoscina said:


> Let’s be honest- there are some people on this site who revel in taking shit about every single library. I honestly don’t know when they have the time to actually compose music…


I mentioned this on another thread, exactly what I have been noticing on this forum. Instant Negative Comments about a brand new sample library release. Seems to be the new trend these days. 

I sometimes feel like being on this forum can be counterproductive to making music, and feel positive, and satisfied, It's kind of sad.


----------



## muziksculp

Casiquire said:


> My point is, if you weren't in these forums, i think you'd be pretty satisfied with your purchase. Don't let this madness ruin your fun


Yes, please don't let the obsession of some on this forum with negativity ruin your musical inspiration, and positive outlook. Enjoy using your libraries, and make music.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

ka00 said:


> I know I read this too quickly, because for a moment I thought you called @SimonCharlesHanna the Ravel of shitting on libraries.
> 
> Toilet Boléro?


If anyone has any qualms with my hyper critical nature you may blame my mother.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> My point is, if you weren't in these forums, i think you'd be pretty satisfied with your purchase. Don't let this madness ruin your fun


Have you written or programmed something extensively with the SINE version? Just curious because the issues / drawbacks are quite apparent and blatant - with or without this forum. There’s a few posts discounting real feedback for some reason - some from folks that seem to only collect libraries without seemingly using any deeply (not saying that’s you btw). Some from folks that I don’t believe have even purchased / installed the SINE collection, so I don’t know how they can comment blindly.

Constructive criticism is what drives progress (like your feedback on CSS!). Not echo chambers of narrow praise.


----------



## Evans

FrozenIcicle said:


> It’s how a lot of small companies do it


I know little about staffing for VI development, but staffing from India is also extremely common in mid-size software companies in other industries (say, $500M to $2B annual revenue, for the ones with which I'm familiar).

I know of one company (marketing software) that's just under the $2B mark, and about half their teams are in India or Tallinn (ha!) despite US headquarters.

The one I work for (mostly payment processing) hovers around $1B, and development for our more "mature" products (mostly bug fixes and compliance work) is overseas from our US headquarters.

And in my experience, some of our teams in India are among our best, even compared with teams in the United States Bay Area, New York, and Austin.

In other words, yeah, dev team location isn't _necessarily_ an indicator of quality - high or low - or cutting corners. Or anything, really.


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Have you written or programmed something extensively with the SINE version? Just curious because the issues / drawbacks are quite apparent and blatant - with or without this forum. There’s a few posts discounting real feedback for some reason - some from folks that seem to only collect libraries without seemingly using any deeply (not saying that’s you btw). Some from folks that I don’t believe have even purchased / installed the SINE collection, so I don’t know how they can comment blindly.
> 
> Constructive criticism is what drives progress (like your feedback on CSS!). Not echo chambers of narrow praise.


Personally, I've done a lot of programming of OT libraries with Sine. I've done a lot of programming of OT libraries with Kontakt. In all cases, I prefer Sine, and work much faster in Sine. Is Sine perfect? Not even close. There's a bunch of really low hanging fruit that OT could do to make the Sine experience so much better. Do I have any confidence that OT will get to this is a timely manner? Not really. So it's a mixed bag. Do I have any desire to go back to Kontakt? Not at all.

I'm still in the process of setting up Berlin Strings for Sine and I've been doing some testing comparing Sine versus Kontakt and Sine is coming out on top by a wide margin, even though I don't yet have it optimized for my workflow. Like Sine takes half the time to program the midi compared to Kontakt. I'm not entirely sure why that is, except the Kontakt version of BS is extraordinarily fussy. 

But I'm also not sure I can ever make BS a main string library because even in Sine, it presents a lot of frictions to my workflow. That is not a Sine problem, however, because I have plenty of Sine libraries, including BSS, that do not present those frictions. The problem is in the way OT chose to implement BS in Sine.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

jbuhler said:


> Personally, I've done a lot of programming of OT libraries with Sine. I've done a lot of programming of OT libraries with Kontakt. In all cases, I prefer Sine, and work much faster in Sine. Is Sine perfect? Not even close. There's a bunch of really low hanging fruit that OT could do to make the Sine experience so much better. Do I have any confidence that OT will get to this is a timely manner? Not really. So it's a mixed bag. Do I have any desire to go back to Kontakt? Not at all.
> 
> I'm still in the process of setting up Berlin Strings for Sine and I've been doing some testing comparing Sine versus Kontakt and Sine is coming out on top by a wide margin, even though I don't yet have it optimized for my workflow. Like Sine takes half the time to program the midi compared to Kontakt. I'm not entirely sure why that is, except the Kontakt version of BS is extraordinarily fussy.
> 
> But I'm also not sure I can ever make BS a main string library because even in Sine, it presents a lot of frictions to my workflow. That is not a Sine problem, however, because I have plenty of Sine libraries, including BSS, that do not present those frictions. The problem is in the way OT chose to implement BS in Sine.


Likewise, I have done a lot of programming with BWW in Kontakt and now with the Berlin Series in SINE. My feedback, like your's, is based on that experience. Same goes for others here providing constructive criticism.

Point being - criticism we both have is based on real world usage. We may disagree on certain challenges and aspects (for example, you prefer SINE overall - I prefer Kontakt given SINE's significant limitations). Either way, both are right - though blanket statements in either direction tend to discount other viewpoints and are not helpful in the discourse. But blind positivity tends to be even more worthless.


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Likewise, I have done a lot of programming with BWW in Kontakt and now with the Berlin Series in SINE. My feedback, like your's, is based on that experience. Same goes for others here providing constructive criticism.
> 
> Point being - criticism we both have is based on real world usage. We may disagree on certain challenges and aspects (for example, you prefer SINE overall - I prefer Kontakt given SINE's significant limitations). Either way, both are right - though blanket statements in either direction tend to discount other viewpoints and are not helpful in the discourse. But blind positivity tends to be even more worthless.


I agree. And I’ll add that I never clicked with Capsule whereas I do with Sine. So every new library with Sine is reasonably easy for me to learn now. I recognize that there was a ton you could do with Capsule but because I had difficulty making it feel intuitive I used little of that capacity. Whereas I am able to use much more of Sine’s capacity. But anyone who has facility with the full functionality of Capsule will likely find Sine impoverished by comparison. And then for some just because it’s Kontakt reduces frictions. 

I’ve fortunately had few issues with Sine and that makes a huge difference. If I was having to fight Sine because it won’t work properly on my machine I’d likely want to throw it out the window too. (On the other side likely one reason I dislike Capsule so much is that i had such issues fighting it back in the days I was working with limited RAM, and such frustrations don’t fade easily.)


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Evans said:


> I know little about staffing for VI development, but staffing from India is also extremely common in mid-size software companies in other industries (say, $500M to $2B annual revenue, for the ones with which I'm familiar).
> 
> I know of one company (marketing software) that's just under the $2B mark, and about half their teams are in India or Tallinn (ha!) despite US headquarters.
> 
> The one I work for (mostly payment processing) hovers around $1B, and development for our more "mature" products (mostly bug fixes and compliance work) is overseas from our US headquarters.
> 
> And in my experience, some of our teams in India are among our best, even compared with teams in the United States Bay Area, New York, and Austin.
> 
> In other words, dev team location isn't _necessarily_ an indicator of quality or cutting corners.


Um I wasn't saying the quality was shit, I said the team was most likely small cause they could outsource it offshore and get the same results if they had a large team in Germany at a faction of the cost


----------



## Pixelpoet1985

Sorry for interrupting the discussion:

I have a question on the string legatos. As far as I know the portamentos are triggered on higher velocity. Is it possible to reverse this? I would like to have them on lower velocities. Or to make portamento a separate patch and put in a polymap?

In the walkthrough I can see that you also have different speed zones for the legatos (speed zones and velocity zones). Can the speed/velocity thresholds be seen and edited? I mean if you could change the values, e.g. to trigger a portamento at a CC value of 90. Couldn't find any information on this.


----------



## axb312

FrozenIcicle said:


> Um I wasn't saying the quality was shit, I said the team was most likely small cause they could outsource it offshore and get the same results if they had a large team in Germany at a faction of the cost


Wish some of those cost savings were passed on to us. OT is really really expensive


----------



## dcoscina

muziksculp said:


> I mentioned this on another thread, exactly what I have been noticing on this forum. Instant Negative Comments about a brand new sample library release. Seems to be the new trend these days.
> 
> I sometimes feel like being on this forum can be counterproductive to making music, and feel positive, and satisfied, It's kind of sad.


Yes that’s all I was saying. I like this community largely because there are a lot of really knowledgeable folks around. But the trend of slagging every product as soon as it hits the street is becoming more prevalent. I don’t know if it’s people suffering from covid fatigue, or what? There just seems to be a lot less willingness to work with a library before summarily dismissing it and worse, practically slandering the developer with straw man Logical assertions.

I’m all for musicians helping musicians here but it seems drowned out by the proliferation of negativity. I almost missed Robin’s terrific tracks using Berlin Brass because almost every other post was how OT dropped the ball or something to that effect. 

Let me offer this to since I work in music retail- you get more flies with honey than vinegar. bringing up issues directly to developers is not bad per se. bitching about it on a public forum is, at least in my book. (This wasn’t directed at you @muziksculp)


----------



## dcoscina

ka00 said:


> I know I read this too quickly, because for a moment I thought you called @SimonCharlesHanna the Ravel of shitting on libraries.
> 
> Toilet Boléro?


Sorry about the typos. Bloody iPhone….


----------



## manuhz

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Sorry for interrupting the discussion:
> 
> I have a question on the string legatos. As far as I know the portamentos are triggered on higher velocity. Is it possible to reverse this? I would like to have them on lower velocities. Or to make portamento a separate patch and put in a polymap?
> 
> In the walkthrough I can see that you also have different speed zones for the legatos (speed zones and velocity zones). Can the speed/velocity thresholds be seen and edited? I mean if you could change the values, e.g. to trigger a portamento at a CC value of 90. Couldn't find any information on this.


Yes, pretty easy. But you can´t change the velocity trigger values.


----------



## alchemist

Is anybody else experiencing this with Trumpet 1?

The Marcato Long and Marcato Short articulation sound exactly the same on my end on a bunch of notes.

In the example below, CC1 is all the way up, I play Marcato Short first then Marcato Long. The first two notes played sound different, one is clearly longer, but then the rest as I go higher up sound exactly the same to me.

View attachment trumpet_marc.mp3


----------



## holywilly

It would be nice if we can change the trigger threshold.


----------



## Robin

alchemist said:


> Is anybody else experiencing this with Trumpet 1?
> 
> The Marcato Long and Marcato Short articulation sound exactly the same on my end on a bunch of notes.
> 
> In the example below, CC1 is all the way up, I play Marcato Short first then Marcato Long. The first two notes played sound different, one is clearly longer, but then the rest as I go higher up sound exactly the same to me.
> 
> View attachment trumpet_marc.mp3


Yup can confirm, I reported that issue already.


----------



## alchemist

Robin said:


> Yup can confirm, I reported that issue already.


Me too, I told them when CC1 is all the way up there's a problem. They say no there isn't, just try lower layers.. hold the notes until the end.. (so patronizing). 

I’m not sure why they won't acknowledge problems instead of gaslighting me. Had to come here and see if anyone else is experiencing the same thing or if I was just crazy..


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Have you written or programmed something extensively with the SINE version? Just curious because the issues / drawbacks are quite apparent and blatant - with or without this forum. There’s a few posts discounting real feedback for some reason - some from folks that seem to only collect libraries without seemingly using any deeply (not saying that’s you btw). Some from folks that I don’t believe have even purchased / installed the SINE collection, so I don’t know how they can comment blindly.
> 
> Constructive criticism is what drives progress (like your feedback on CSS!). Not echo chambers of narrow praise.


Yeah, and I've been pretty critical about a handful of things like how you can't cross groups, but on the whole i haven't had any significant amount of trouble


----------



## Robin

alchemist said:


> Me too, I told them when CC1 is all the way up there's a problem. They say no there isn't, just try lower layers.. hold the notes until the end.. (so patronizing).
> 
> I’m not sure why they won't acknowledge problems instead of gaslighting me. Had to come here and see if anyone else is experiencing the same thing or if I was just crazy..


Interesting, I got a reply that they put the bug into the tracker.


----------



## ism

JTB said:


> But the 99.9% positive stuff is getting outdated. There are much better products on the market these days by companies that consider "very small to reasonably small technical issues" to be paramount.


Well, I just bought BS, after very carefully, and extensively considering it against all the competition.

And there's nothing else like it. Nothing with this particular sound. And nothing with this particular set of expressive (particularly dynamic) dimensions.

I do agree with you that BS is showing it's age in a few ways.

For one think there's certain set of use cases that the original BS was more or less serviceable for, but that have now been surpassed by CSS, Vista, Soaring Strings in their technology of super extra syrupy uber high romantic lines. (But I already have 2 of these, so I don't need BS to do this at all. In fact, it's an *enormous* plus that BS focuses all it's depths of resources of sonority and expressiveness onto other types of gloriously beautiful and subtle expressiveness.

And for another, things like Adachi and TSS have more advanced concepts in scripting for certain dimension of dynamic expressiveness, which I really love. (History, I think, will show ISW very prescient getting @Sarah Mancuso on their team. I'd love to see what she could do for BS via some kind of extended scripting on existing samples in some kind of Adachi-like project for Berlin Strings).

But with these minor caveats, BS still stands as entirely a best in class library.

More importantly the artistic vision of the Berlin Sound is as compelling as ever, and it's gloriously coherent with it's companion libraries (my favorites being the Special Bow, the First Chairs, and the Ark 2 strings).

This doesn't mean that OT shouldn't be pressured to fix issues, or that it isn't important to point them out on a thread like this. Just that I think it's a drag that this thread is *only* about these issues, which to me feel very, very small in the face of the gloriousness opening of new expressive words that having BS in suddenly my palette represents.




ALittleNightMusic said:


> Constructive criticism is what drives progress (like your feedback on CSS!). Not echo chambers of narrow praise.



This is very true. But the converse is that when people put on their commercial, consumer hats and reason (perhaps implicitly) that it's the squeaky wheel that gets oiled, ie that it's therefore in the consumer's material interest to make as much unpleasantness about issues as possible, withholding all praise lest our enemies who make these libraries become complacent.

Which, from a technical, consumer perspective, is probably perfectly sound logic.

But, while I share concern for these bugs, only putting on one's "irate and technically demanding consumer" hat risk losing the 90% of what I actually come to vi-c for, with is to understand how to write better music, and how sample libraries open possibilities of new musical spaces.

And this thread, though often useful, is kind of a drag in that it's seemingly not interesting in the latter. I don't know how we could get to a narrow echo chamber of praise from this thread, in that any crucial artistic engagement is being crushed by all the irate and demanding technical consumer complaints.


----------



## Zanshin

ism said:


> And there's nothing else like it. Nothing with this particular sound. And nothing with this particular set of expressive (particularly dynamic) dimensions.


Well said, my thoughts exactly distilled. I can not say the same for BWW and BB though so I passed on the bundle and just got BS and BSS.


----------



## JTB

ism said:


> Well, I just bought BS, after very carefully, and extensively considering it against all the competition


1200 euros ($1400 USD) should buy a workhorse library. Not a library that has its niche place in "sonority and expressiveness".


----------



## Gensaii

JF said:


> Has anyone been able to mic-merge Horn 2?



Not me. I know it's been a while but I came here looking to make sure it isn't just me before reporting this issue.


----------



## ism

JTB said:


> 1200 euros ($1400 USD) should buy a workhorse library. Not a library that has its niche place in "sonority and expressiveness".


I'd argue that where libraries like CSS, Soaring strings and (especially) Vista have these tiny little baked in, predetermined niches in their sonority and expressiveness, libraries like BS, SCS etc are precisely workhorse libraries for their depth of sonority and breadth of expressiveness.

But also, what else would anyone ever care about in any library, ever, workhorse or niche, other that very precisely, the spaces of its sonority and expressiveness?


----------



## jbuhler

JTB said:


> 1200 euros ($1400 USD) should buy a workhorse library. Not a library that has its niche place in "sonority and expressiveness".


This really depends on why someone is buying libraries, and whether “sonority and expressiveness” are part of your criteria for workhorse. People value different things. Niche items are also often rather more expensive rather than less, because the market is smaller.

But I wouldn’t call Berlin niche myself because it’s quite comprehensive, especially when you add in the special bows. That comprehensiveness is not all positive however because it makes the library hard to use. I tend to think OT has not organized the library well because there are other libraries of similar comprehensiveness that do not have the same issues. These issues mean BS will likely remain a special use or supplemental library for me. But BS still brings a new dimension to the many strings I have, and it brings a dimension I value for my music and that is not readily available in other libraries. (In fact I’ve had BS for a long time so Sine brings to me better usability, even if I don’t think it’s yet close to ideal.) Is it too expensive to serve that function? I rather think that’s for the user to decide based on what they value.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

ism said:


> This is very true. But the converse is that when people put on their commercial, consumer hats and reason (perhaps implicitly) that it's the squeaky wheel that gets oiled, ie that it's therefore in the consumer's material interest to make as much unpleasantness about issues as possible, withholding all praise lest our enemies who make these libraries become complacent.
> 
> Which, from a technical, consumer perspective, is probably perfectly sound logic.
> 
> But, while I share concern for these bugs, only putting on one's "irate and technically demanding consumer" hat risk losing the 90% of what I actually come to vi-c for, with is to understand how to write better music, and how sample libraries open possibilities of new musical spaces.
> 
> And this thread, though often useful, is kind of a drag in that it's seemingly not interesting in the latter. I don't know how we could get to a narrow echo chamber of praise from this thread, in that any crucial artistic engagement is being crushed by all the irate and demanding technical consumer complaints.


That is certainly one way to look at it - and perhaps some of the complaints are "irate and technically demanding". But MANY are not. I agree that on the whole, libraries - including these, should be viewed as a door into a new frontier for the owner - and I certainly have found that with the Berlin Series (as I have posted about previously and have posted a number of mockups already using it). However, it doesn't have to be one or the other - and certainly, "using it in anger" does highlight some areas of improvement. The frustration has been that OT has refused to acknowledge (here and it seems via their tech support channel) or comment on that - and I'm personally frustrated by their sales policy of not allowing SINE users to acquire the Kontakt versions even though they allow the reverse. Irritation also is correlated to the price point - if these were a couple of hundred bucks, perhaps customers would not feel as passionate about the "challenges". But spending well over $1000 and it becomes a different equation. Especially given how strong the competition in the marketplace is these days.

You say 90% of the reason you come to Vi-C is to understand how to write better music. Well it is also the place that people come to find their tools - and feedback about those tools, _before purchasing_, is one of the most important resources the community can provide. This is also a single thread in a sea of thousands (including ones that are probably better for writing music - like in the Composing forum), so if this is diminishing your Vi-C experience, perhaps it isn't the thread to be focusing your time on.


----------



## Eptesicus

ism said:


> But, while I share concern for these bugs, only putting on one's "irate and technically demanding consumer" hat risk losing the 90% of what I actually come to vi-c for, with is to understand how to write better music, and how sample libraries open possibilities of new musical spaces.
> 
> And this thread, though often useful, is kind of a drag in that it's seemingly not interesting in the latter. I don't know how we could get to a narrow echo chamber of praise from this thread, in that any crucial artistic engagement is being crushed by all the irate and demanding technical consumer complaints.



In fairness to those complaining, these threads are specifically about the product. There are specific sections of this website that are for composition/writing music etc.

These libraries cost a lot of money for many of us so when they don't work, it can be hugely frustrating.


----------



## ism

Eptesicus said:


> In fairness to those complaining, these threads are specifically about the product. There are specific sections of this website that are for composition/writing music etc.
> 
> These libraries cost a lot of money for many of us so when they don't work, it can be hugely frustrating.


Yep , also true.


----------



## tim727

The concern to me here is that there seems to be an environment where negative feedback is simply not welcomed and treated in a very *dismissive* manner. It's as if positive feedback is "the default" and anyone posting anything negative must be "unreasonable" or just has a "negative mindset". If I'm being honest at times it has felt like it has almost verged on gaslighting.

In an Andea Sample Talk thread yesterday a poster had made a _completely reasonable comment_ about preferring an instrument from a competing library and having some general concerns on account of Phoenix having had some real issues. This poster was then immediately attacked for bringing so much "negativity" into the thread. However, I found his comment to be very helpful because it gave me information which has now affected my stance on purchasing items from that library. (To be clear I'm still considering making purchases, but I'm a bit more cautious now). If this forum were instead the perfect echo chamber that some others would seem to wish for it to be, that other poster would not have made that comment and I might not have received some really valuable information.

Food for thought.


----------



## Evans

tim727 said:


> If I'm being honest at times it has felt like it has almost verged on gaslighting.


Indeed.

With that said, I'm not sure if I'm - being the "negative" person that someone wouldn't stop pushing on in the Andea thread - personally comfortable with some of the comments that creep into the Commercial Announcements and Deals, Deals, Deals boards, which require developers to pay for their presence.

Audio examples in these *paid *boards, for example, I suppose are fair game (a little iffy, because the varying levels of competency across different users could show a good library in a bad light). Bug reports, sure thing! Comparison to competitors? Gross. And continued bashing of policies and development approach? Could be a bit much.

I think we can respect that these two boards are unique from others on this site, and at least cut the competitor chatter and flogging of dead horses. The board where that's entirely appropriate, in my _opinion_, sits atop the boards list for everyone to see.


----------



## dhmusic

Evans said:


> the varying levels of competency across different users could show a good library in a bad light





Evans said:


> Comparison to competitors? Gross.


This is why we need a coliseum thread


----------



## tim727

Evans said:


> Indeed.
> 
> With that said, I'm not sure if I'm - being the person that someone wouldn't stop pushing on in the Andea thread - personally comfortable with some of the comments that creep into the Commercial Announcements and Deals, Deals, Deals boards, which require developers to pay for their presence.
> 
> Audio examples in these *paid *boards, for example, I suppose are fair game (a little iffy, because the varying levels of competency across different users could show a good library in a bad light). Bug reports, sure thing! Comparison to competitors? Gross. And continued bashing of policies and development approach? Could be a bit much.
> 
> I think we can respect that these two boards are unique from others on this site, and at least cut the competitor chatter and flogging of dead horses. The board where that's entirely appropriate, in my _opinion_, sits atop the boards list for everyone to see.


An interesting point. I suppose it depends then on what is considered appropriate for which board. I'm aware of the rule to not mention competitors directly though it's not clear to me if some of the other things violate the rules of the board. (Maybe they do?). The comment on the audio examples in particular is interesting, because it's true that either (1) a given individual might have poor competency or (2) they could technically have a unique technical issue on their system, etc ... which theoretically could erroneously show a library in a bad light. 

You've definitely given me some things to consider.

Cheers,
Tim


----------



## Evans

FWIW, I think Mike (the owner here) gives developers the leeway to make the decision for themselves in regard to how much of a certain kind of user behavior is too much. And it usually goes pretty well, as an observer who really just wants JohnG to tell him what to buy!


----------



## alchemist

Robin said:


> Interesting, I got a reply that they put the bug into the tracker.


That's even worse that they acknowledged it when you reported it but gaslit me when I reported it lol. The important thing is that it is logged I guess.


----------



## dhmusic

alchemist said:


> That's even worse that they acknowledged it when you reported it but gaslit me when I reported it lol.


weird. I must have clicked on a link to twitter by mistake


----------



## alchemist

dhmusic said:


> weird. I must have clicked on a link to twitter by mistake


what do you mean?


----------



## dhmusic

alchemist said:


> what do you mean?


Two people getting gaslit over sample libraries within a few posts. Seems a bit extreme, kind of funny tho.


----------



## tim727

dhmusic said:


> Two people getting gaslit over sample libraries within a few posts. Seems a bit extreme, kind of funny tho.


Not sure why that would be funny. A number of people in this thread have commented on contacting OT support with an issue at some point only for them to flippantly deny that there was an issue at all.


----------



## dhmusic

tim727 said:


> Not sure why that would be funny. A number of people in this thread have commented on contacting OT support with an issue at some point only for them to flippantly deny that there was an issue at all.


It isn't actually funny. It's an inappropriate term to use so casually on a public forum where most people are just skimming for info. Denying there is an issue is not gaslighting and there could be many other reasons they reacted that way, including by misunderstanding/mistake.


----------



## alchemist

dhmusic said:


> It isn't actually funny. It's an inappropriate term to use so casually on a public forum where most people are just skimming for info. Denying there is an issue is not gaslighting and there could be many other reasons they reacted that way, including by misunderstanding/mistake.


Feel better now you got all those opinions off your chest?


----------



## tim727

dhmusic said:


> It isn't actually funny. It's an inappropriate term to use so casually on a public forum where most people are just skimming for info. Denying there is an issue is not gaslighting and there could be many other reasons they reacted that way, including by misunderstanding/mistake.


I mostly agree with you. To be fair, when I mentioned the term, I was referring to forum users here rather than OT and I also indicated that it "felt" like some things were "verging" on that. I'm not actually accusing people here of gaslighting, though I've admittedly been quite off-put by a lot of the _dismissiveness_ that I've encountered. And since dismissiveness is a key component of gaslighting, I believe that is what led me to indicate that it felt like some of the stuff in this thread was approaching that. That said, it was a rather hyperbolic and perhaps somewhat cavalier use of the term.


----------



## dhmusic

tim727 said:


> I mostly agree with you. To be fair, when I mentioned the term, I was referring to forum users here rather than OT and I also indicated that it "felt" like some things were "verging" on that. I'm not actually accusing people here of gaslighting, though I've admittedly been quite off-put by a lot of the _dismissiveness_ that I've encountered. And since dismissiveness is a key component of gaslighting, I believe that is what led me to indicate that it felt like some of the stuff in this thread was approaching that. That said, it was a rather hyperbolic and perhaps somewhat cavalier use of the term.


No worries - I'd be frustrated too in that spot. I didn't think you meant it like that either. I meant my post to be more of a thought buffer for speed readers looking to satisfy their confirmation bias. You know how the internet can be - there are a lot of fair criticisms being made but in a state of frustration people tend to gravitate towards the most reactive ideas and those accumulate. I wouldn't have said anything if it didn't pop up a few posts down tbh. 

I guess that's a hard idea to convey with my vaguely sarcastic joke lol. I was trying to draw attention to the idea rather than anyone in particular. I appreciate the measured response btw.


----------



## tim727

dhmusic said:


> No worries - I'd be frustrated too in that spot. I didn't think you meant it like that either. I meant my post to be more of a thought buffer for speed readers looking to satisfy their confirmation bias. You know how the internet can be - there are a lot of fair criticisms being made but in a state of frustration people tend to gravitate towards the most reactive ideas and those accumulate. I wouldn't have said anything if it didn't pop up a few posts down tbh.
> 
> I guess that's a hard idea to convey with my vaguely sarcastic joke lol. I was trying to draw attention to the idea rather than anyone in particular. I appreciate the measured response btw.


Understood. No hard feelings!


----------



## Jose7822

OK, I contacted support and they quickly replied saying that I will be receiving a voucher for the Berlin Orchestra as long as I had the 4 Berlin Main collection added to SINE before December 5th, which I definitely did. He said this is currently their top priority.

Just wait a few more days guys (for those waiting to get their voucher) 👍.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Jose7822 said:


> OK, I contacted support and they quickly replied saying that I will be receiving a voucher for the Berlin Orchestra as long as I had the 4 Berlin Main collection added to SINE before December 5th, which I definitely did. He said this is currently their top priority.
> 
> Just wait a few more days guys (for those waiting to get their voucher) 👍.


At first I thought “Why would I need this if I already have the Mains?” But it might be handy to use for minor parts just to offset the RAM usage.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> At first I thought “Why would I need this if I already have the Mains?” But it might be handy to use for minor parts just to offset the RAM usage.


There are also a few instruments in the the Berlin Orchestra that are not in the Mains and/or not in Sine.


----------



## Casiquire

tim727 said:


> The concern to me here is that there seems to be an environment where negative feedback is simply not welcomed and treated in a very *dismissive* manner. It's as if positive feedback is "the default" and anyone posting anything negative must be "unreasonable" or just has a "negative mindset". If I'm being honest at times it has felt like it has almost verged on gaslighting.
> 
> In an Andea Sample Talk thread yesterday a poster had made a _completely reasonable comment_ about preferring an instrument from a competing library and having some general concerns on account of Phoenix having had some real issues. This poster was then immediately attacked for bringing so much "negativity" into the thread. However, I found his comment to be very helpful because it gave me information which has now affected my stance on purchasing items from that library. (To be clear I'm still considering making purchases, but I'm a bit more cautious now). If this forum were instead the perfect echo chamber that some others would seem to wish for it to be, that other poster would not have made that comment and I might not have received some really valuable information.
> 
> Food for thought.


This is a commercial thread though. That's what Sample Talk is for. I agree that it shouldn't have been dismissed over there


----------



## tim727

Casiquire said:


> This is a commercial thread though. That's what Sample Talk is for. I agree that it shouldn't have been dismissed over there


Forgive me if this was the wrong thread for that type of discussion. I certainly wouldn't openly/knowingly violate forum rules.


----------



## Casiquire

tim727 said:


> Forgive me if this was the wrong thread for that type of discussion. I certainly wouldn't openly/knowingly violate forum rules.


No your post didn't strike me as being out of line at all, but i do think a lot of the negativity in the commercial thread definitely has been


----------



## Jett Hitt

Casiquire said:


> No your post didn't strike me as being out of line at all, but i do think a lot of the negativity in the commercial thread definitely has been


I am not certain that I think the negativity is all that out of line. I’m an OT fan. I own 12 of their libraries. But these releases were clearly premature. Given their track record with repairs, negative feedback is likely to be the only thing that motivates them to update these libraries in a timely manner.


----------



## Casiquire

Jett Hitt said:


> I am not certain that I think the negativity is all that out of line. I’m an OT fan. I own 12 of their libraries. But these releases were clearly premature. Given their track record with repairs, negative feedback is likely to be the only thing that motivates them to update these libraries in a timely manner.


In a commercial thread, yes it is


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Casiquire said:


> In a commercial thread, yes it is


I'm as big a fan as any for oppression of thought and speech but I in this dystopian free world that's been created for us, I think it's better to err on the side of allowing people who have purchased the product (or not) to voice their grievances. If OT want to smell their own farts they can do it in private...or release a finished product of high quality.

I get that they pay for this space but that shouldn't include payment for suppression dissention (to my dismay, obviously). A rule that I find perfectly acceptable though is not mentioning competitor products/brands.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Casiquire said:


> In a commercial thread, yes it is


Why?


----------



## Casiquire

Jett Hitt said:


> Why?


Forum rules


----------



## Jose7822

I also disagree with the notion that customers can’t voice their opinions of a product in this forum as long as it is done in a respectful manner (which I think people have done here).

Why would it be different here than on any other social media platform where products are announced? But I guess those are the forum rules.


----------



## Casiquire

Jose7822 said:


> I also disagree with the notion that customers can’t voice their opinions of a product in this forum. Why would it be different here than on any other social media platform where products are announced? But I guess those are the forum rules.


It makes sense to me. The company paid for the opportunity to present their product however they want. The thread is literally an ad for the product. It's not like we don't have an alternative for voicing unfiltered thoughts


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Casiquire said:


> Forum rules


Yeah right? Oops. uh...sorry Mike?



Casiquire said:


> It makes sense to me. The company paid for the opportunity to present their product however they want. The thread is literally an ad for the product. It's not like we don't have an alternative for voicing unfiltered thoughts


True but why dont they just turn comments off or something then. For users to ask questions I guess? What about questions like, why isn't this product finished? or why does this sound bad? Does that count? Who knows.


----------



## Jose7822

Casiquire said:


> It makes sense to me. The company paid for the opportunity to present their product however they want. The thread is literally an ad for the product. It's not like we don't have an alternative for voicing unfiltered thoughts


The problem is that it’s one sided. IOW, it’s OK to make positive comments, but not negative ones. I’d be OK with the forum rules if we’re restricting ALL comments and just keeping it as an announcement thread, but that’s not the case here.


----------



## Casiquire

Jose7822 said:


> The problem is that it’s one sided. IOW, it’s OK to make positive comments, but not negative ones. I’d be OK with the forum rules if we’re restricting ALL comments and just keeping it as an announcement thread, but that’s not the case here.


Sure it's one-sided, it's an ad. That's the point. We've got a place to go for more open discussion


----------



## alchemist

Casiquire said:


> In a commercial thread, yes it is


If bulls*** needs to be called out, it needs to be called out. Mods can step in when they need. We are not here to police each others use of language. How ridiculous.

If I find that a *non-refundable* product I buy is broken and I tell the company it's broken, and they don't even acknowledge it, regardless of how miniscule *you *may perceive that breakage to be within your own set of ideals, then I'm going to call it out publicly, on their own thread.



Casiquire said:


> Forum rules


That last paragraph voids it as a "rule" by saying it's basically at the companies discretion lol


----------



## Jose7822

Casiquire said:


> Sure it's one-sided, it's an ad. That's the point. We've got a place to go for more open discussion


We’re going to have to agree to disagree. Plus, now we’re breaking the forum rules by going off topic, lol.


----------



## Evans

alchemist said:


> Mods can step in when they need.


Users behaving themselves and complying with forum rules - especially, when they are engaging with what are effectively "paid ads" as Casiquire notes above - are probably a big part in how this site stays alive _and_ free of charge for us commonfolk. It's not like there's an army of well paid mods here.


----------



## alchemist

Evans said:


> Users behaving themselves and complying with forum rules - especially, when they are engaging with what are effectively "paid ads" as Casiquire notes above - are probably a big part in how this site stays alive _and_ free of charge. It's not like there's an army of mods here.


Have you seen "sponsored" posts on social media? Those are ads. Notice that people comment on said posts? How many times have you been grateful to see a trail of negative comments that may have saved you from making a bad purchase?

There are "ads" all over this page as I am typing. At the top of the page, to the side, at the bottom, ads everywhere. This is a thread, and if a thread is open to comment, and the company who's thread it is has sold me the product they are promoting with no possibility of getting my money back, I don't give a damn what the "rules" are. I'm saying what I have to say.

but also, as I said above lol


alchemist said:


> That last paragraph voids it as a "rule" by saying it's basically at the companies discretion lol


----------



## ism

I'd argue that to say a commercial thread is merely an "ad" is, well kind of true if you squint at it in the right light, but also kind of an exaggeration. And it misses an important benefit to the community of commercial threads for new libraries.

sample libraries are difficult, difficult things. Difficult to make, difficult to market, difficult to talk about, and especially difficult to get you head around when a new library contains innovation at the level of nuance and performativity that goes beyond the instant gratification of mere plonkablity.

And the context is of course that there's lots of space for negative critiques on the sample talk thread, which is of course extremely important.

But ... it's also valuable to have just a little bit of a space where we can talk about something new, and let a developer try (in good faith) to explain what it is a bit, while giving them a bit of the benefit of the doubt, and encouraging open minds.

I'd never, of course, buy a library based on *just* a commercial thread. But at the same time, some of the most genuinely useful user content on vi-c that I've ever seen has been on commercial threads. And I don't think it's a coincidence, as this where there's space for people to discuss and experiment without one or two people taking the discussion into a death spiral of cascading negativity.

On of my favourite threads, for instance, was for LCO ... which was a puzzling, though intriguing, library at first. A lot of people were sceptical of all the "game changing" rhetoric. But it was argued constructively. Some people came around quickly and started posted amazing (if sometimes also puzzling) demos. Some people never came around and simply agreed, civilly, to disagree. I kept coming back to that thread for about a year, still intrigued, and still not really certain what the library was about, until eventually I stared to get my head around it and picked it up. (And I came to really love it.)

There was a similarly excellent thread for Time Macro (don't remember if it was commercial or not), where lots of us shared demos as we tried to figure out what the hell this crazy (and fabulous) new library was. And the commercial thread for Tallin was also valuable on lots of levels, including a (safe enough) space for people to share their initial demos and noodles and experiment. EWC, the Ben Osterhouse thread(s), and various others have also amongst the most fun, informative, engaged, artistically inspiring, and deeply valuable threads on vic. Surely this is at least one dimension of vi-c at it's best.

The SStS thread, however, despite the fact that I though it was a lovely little library that deserved to be considered on its own merits, was a dumpster fire, because a small number of people (imo) just demanded that it be something else other than what it was, and weren't prepared to give any quarter, it felt, to it not being what they wanted it to be.

I know for a fact that people who like some of these libraries were not posting demos because of the negativity (and even abuse) positive experiences attracts. And honestly, why one anyone share their tentative, experimental noodling in such a toxic context? Terrible, terrible thread.

There there was the SsS thread, which was a drag, dominated by bitter, bitter complaint that the non-legato patches didn't, for some reason, come with legato. This was a difficult library that really could have benefited from a space for learning and experimenting free from spiralling negativity.

So I'd argue that it's not just that a commercial thread is an ad as a safe space to protect developers interests, it's also a space to explore new musical worlds of sample libraries with an open mind.

Think of it like brainstorming sessions. The point of brainstorming is to get new ideas out there. And this simply can't work if everyone (or even one or two people) just starts shitting indiscriminately on every new ideas presented that deviates from received wisdom. When you need to develop brainstormed ideas, you of course need to later to bring in a more ruthlessly critical lens. But the point is that you don't - you can't - do this until the new ideas have been presented in an initial context from free from the thread of new ideas being shat upon for even being spoken.

It is, of course, completely legitimate to make a savage critique on a non-commercial thread, and link to it for anyone who wants to follow it.

In any event, who every buys a library having only read the commercial thread.


----------



## tim727

I do think it's very strange for the thread to be open to positive commentary but closed to anything critical. I get the idea that this is theoretically supposed to be like an "ad", but in reality ... is it like that at all? When you see an ad on TV or on your phone or on a billboard, you can't give feedback to the company. But here you can, which makes this totally different, and the asymmetrical nature of the type of commentary that the forum rules allow for essentially guarantees the creation of an echo chamber. That being said, the forum rules are the rules and we all joined this site agreeing to abide by them so I will restrict my more colorful comments to Sample Talk.

With that in mind I've also created a Sample Talk duplicate to this thread, where everyone can speak more freely, regardless of whether their sentiments are positive or negative:





__





OT Berlin Mains on SINE


This is the Sample Talk ugly cousin of the thread by the same name on the Commercial Board. There has been a lot of back and forth in the original thread around the notion of whether or not it's ok to post any negative commentary there. Per the official rules of the forum, it is technically...




vi-control.net


----------



## alchemist

The reason I came here to post, is because I was being dismissed in private. I had to resort to this in order to get things done. 

To OT's credit, I've just received an apology, an admittance that the problem I reported was not even looked at due to being busy (even though I was dismissed 3 times as it not being a problem), an acknowledgement that there was indeed an error when samples were exported, and I was even thanked for my persistence. 

I hope some of you realise that in this instance, "negativity" has benefited everyone who bought the library lol

In contrast, head over to the OT commercial thread for *Andea*, and you will see me *praising* the work that has been done, I absolutely adore that library. There is no black and white, positivity has it's place, but there are times where complaining is warranted.

On that note, bug acknowledged, mission accomplished. I'm outta here.


----------



## muk

In fairness to OT (and the forum rules), we _are_ pointing out problems with the libraries in this thread, aren't we? Orchestral Tools doesn't acknowledge any problems, but they don't stop us talking about them either. Not an ideal solution of course. But unless OT changes to a 'try before you buy'/allow resales, or drastically improve their quality control, it is what it is.


----------



## Frederick

My 2 cents: I think it's a very good thing that people are pointing out problems that they've encountered with the SINE version, especially in this thread, as long as it's done with respect. For people that already owned the Kontakt version of the Berlin Series this is a free upgrade. If you don't want to use it yet, because there are too many issues for your workflow, then there's no need to stop using the Kontakt version. So why all the fuss? I think because 1) OT doesn't seem to have earned the trust that they will fix the found issues. 2) OT apparently is very busy at the moment and they are screwing up their communication to the customers. Denying the existence of a bug? Really? Have they communicated what will be updated next after the brass? Is another update even pending? Do they think it's fine the way it is now? I have no idea.

And what about the free Berklee lib for Berlin Series owners? Some people got a mail. Most didn't. It was promised in a thread on VI-Control months ago, but no official statement. And as far as I know nobody got it. Will it appear in my licenses list? Do I need a voucher? Starting from Dec 6th? What does that even mean? Is it only for people that owned all four sections before the SINE version became available? Or are they pissed about how people have reacted to the SINE port and reconsidered?
I'm not so sure I will have a use case for Berklee, but I - am - bothered by the lack of clear communication. Oh well.

Personally I've deleted my Kontakt versions and am willing to use the SINE versions as they are now and trust that in the long run they'll make sure their flagship libraries in SINE will shine and stand out as much as we all hope. The main problem for me is the lack of good memory management: a) only load the samples as they are needed, and b) a purge option. (I only have 64GB RAM) The mic merge is nice (quite spectacular actually), but it's no replacement.

However, if they would run a 50% off sale on the Arks (1 & 2 bundle) rather sooner than later, then all is forgiven.


----------



## coprhead6

Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> We'll definitely look at this and you're right - this is not how it should sound.
> My assumption is that this comes from the playable runs. We'll check and update asap.
> 
> -Hendrik





muk said:


> Orchestral Tools doesn't acknowledge any problems


----------



## andyhy

I've read all the comments good and bad. I now have the whole OT Berlin series on SINE and have parked the Kontakt versions of BS and BWW that I bought in the BF 2020 offer on a spare SSD. Haven't found the need for them yet so may delete them. Already had one update of the series from OT so I'm sure they will respond with more updates where any faults reported are valid. I'm not into developer bashing. I like sample discussion to be constructive not harsh or speculative. My overarching comment on all sample discussion is to look at your keyboard technique as much as the samples themselves.

One good reason to keep the old Kontakt version of BWW is to have access to the Legacy BWW samples which like a lot of people I still quite like as an addition to BWW Revive. At present Legacy hasn't been ported across to SINE and as far as I know OT has no plans to do so in the future but I suppose that might change if there's a market for it.


----------



## tonio_

I've got the SINE version and I really really enjoy it. It has a bit of a learning curve and the purging is a b****, but all in all, it's a really awesome sounding library


----------



## Seizh Avel

Jose7822 said:


> OK, I contacted support and they quickly replied saying that I will be receiving a voucher for the Berlin Orchestra as long as I had the 4 Berlin Main collection added to SINE before December 5th, which I definitely did. He said this is currently their top priority.
> 
> Just wait a few more days guys (for those waiting to get their voucher) 👍.


Just received the Voucher by mail


----------



## Jose7822

Seizh Avel said:


> Just received the Voucher by mail


Same!! 🤘😉

My faith in OT is getting slowly restored. However, need to see how well they’ll handle bug fixes. I’m happy for now.


----------



## kornelius13

It's weird. But I also got the email, although I only have 3 out of 4 products. Strange


----------



## Zanshin

kornelius13 said:


> It's weird. But I also got the email, although I only have 3 out of 4 products. Strange


Me too but only one (BS). I'm happy for those that get it free


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Seizh Avel said:


> Just received the Voucher by mail


same. Can someone confirm what I should be downloading if I already only have Berlin Series. Is it only the Harp and first chairs? (Is it the same harp as inspire 2 cause I used my voucher last year on that a la carte)


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

I got the mail too but only own Berlin Brass! Sorry to ruin the party but I've notified support about this, doesn't feel super honest to me, as much as I'd like the library ^^


----------



## Zanshin

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I got the mail too but only own Berlin Brass! Sorry to ruin the party but I've notified support about this, doesn't feel super honest to me, as much as I'd like the library ^^


The code won't work unless you own all four sections.


----------



## kornelius13

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> I got the mail too but only own Berlin Brass! Sorry to ruin the party but I've notified support about this, doesn't feel super honest to me, as much as I'd like the library ^^


It still won't let you redeem it anyway. You have to have all 4. I was just surprised I got the code too


----------



## HM_Music

Just got this library for free.
But I'm a little confused about what it is. Isn't this library based on the berlin series samples?
I count a few instruments that I don't own, like Solo strings, but I have doubts that it's really a solo.


----------



## Gensaii

Just got mine! I'm so glad the Brass still gets that individual players treatment like Berlin Brass. Can't wait to play with this thing.


----------



## Casiquire

FrozenIcicle said:


> same. Can someone confirm what I should be downloading if I already only have Berlin Series. Is it only the Harp and first chairs? (Is it the same harp as inspire 2 cause I used my voucher last year on that a la carte)


And bass clarinet!


----------



## Fever Phoenix

I never get emails from them.. I use their products for many years.. it is the only company that does not send me ANY emails.. I always wondered..


----------



## Fever Phoenix

ok, not true.. I just checked.. getting mails when a new factory library is out and when I made a purchase


----------



## Fever Phoenix

not even the announcement of Andea.. :/


----------



## Jose7822

Did you try resubscribing to their newsletter, or perhaps editing it in your OT account?


----------



## Fever Phoenix

Jose7822 said:


> Did you try resubscribing to their newsletter, or perhaps editing it in your OT account?


yes, just did.. for some weiir reason I was unsubscribed.

Interesting also, that only the Sine Licences are registered in the account, no records of the Kontakt licenses..


----------



## Hendrixon

FrozenIcicle said:


> same. Can someone confirm what I should be downloading if I already only have Berlin Series. Is it only the Harp and first chairs? (Is it the same harp as inspire 2 cause I used my voucher last year on that a la carte)


Solo Violin I
Solo Violin II
Solo Viola
Solo Cello
Solo Bass
Harp
Bass Clarinet
Contrabassoon

* Timpani was added to Perc on SINE.


----------



## tim727

Fever Phoenix said:


> yes, just did.. for some weiir reason I was unsubscribed.
> 
> Interesting also, that only the Sine Licences are registered in the account, no records of the Kontakt licenses..


To my knowledge this is actually expected. Only two things should show up under “my licenses”: SINE licenses for SINE libraries you’ve purchased and Kontakt licenses for libraries you’ve purchased that have (1) been converted to SINE already and (2) were purchased AFTER the point that OT started their online account system which was about two years ago. 

This means that two common scenarios will NOT result in a given license showing up under “My Licenses” in your account: (1) a kontakt lib that has not yet been ported to SINE, such as Ark 3 for example, (2) a lib that HAS been ported to SINE, but one for which you bought the kontakt version BEFORE the date when OT initiated their account system. 

To my knowledge libs in both categories (1) and (2) will not show up in your account without action taken on your part. The main difference between the libs in category (1) and (2) is that those in category (1) simply cannot be added to your account by any means until the lib is ported to SINE. Meanwhile libs in category (2) can be added to your account by yourself on the OT website (or else if it still doesn’t work support can and will add them manually).


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Zanshin said:


> The code won't work unless you own all four sections.





kornelius13 said:


> It still won't let you redeem it anyway. You have to have all 4. I was just surprised I got the code too


... So you've tried, uh


----------



## Zanshin

Emmanuel Rousseau said:


> ... So you've tried, uh


I can neither confirm nor deny this allegation!


----------



## Jett Hitt

If the mix is compatible, this is going to make it hard to justify buying some of these additional instruments when they get ported. I can see myself skipping additional woodwinds and brass and maybe even harp. I had hoped that things like this would just be merged into the Sine version of the Mains, and maybe the smaller ones will be, but that didn't happened with First Chairs, Special Bows, and Woodwinds Soloists. Maybe the smaller collections will get merged and larger ones remain stand alone, i.e. Special Bows and Muted Brass. It will interesting to see how OT handles this. In the meantime, I am pretty happy to download BO.


----------



## bfreepro

HM_Music said:


> Just got this library for free.
> But I'm a little confused about what it is. Isn't this library based on the berlin series samples?
> I count a few instruments that I don't own, like Solo strings, but I have doubts that it's really a solo.


It’s a more streamlined and simplified version of their Berlin series. Only one mic positions and limited articulations compared to the mains, but it also may give you basic instruments you don’t already have. I consider it a sort of Berlin Orchestra Lite. If you have all the Kontakt versions, which take up a crapload of hard drive space, this berklee edition might be good to install on a laptop as well since it takes up much less space.


----------



## nickhmusic

muziksculp said:


> Having a little fun playing with Berlin Strings (SINE).
> 
> I really like the *Celli Espressivo Short - Legato* Articulation, and the legatos are beautiful, and very realistic. 🧡
> 
> Here is a short noodle I did using that patch, using a bit of reverb and EQ. Played in real time, with Mod wheel control. I'm sure it can be edited much more to make it sound even more refined. But imho. for a one take real time performance, the results are very good to my ears.
> 
> View attachment BS SINE Espr Short Leg.mp3


aaaaaaaand SOLD to the man with too many string libraries. Thank god for SINE, I can start building around what I have with separate sections. Cheers mate, excellent playing!


----------



## HM_Music

I don't think I'll ever use the berklee version, but it's still nice to get it for free.
I just downloaded and tested this library, of course I don't like it, especially since I have bought so many libraries this year (I'm broke).


----------



## Rudianos

Very nice to be downloading Berklee for free - starting with the ones Berlin Mains do not have. Very kind offer from Orchestral Tools.


----------



## muziksculp

Rudianos said:


> starting with the ones Berlin Mains do not have.


What are the ones in the Berklee version that are not in Berlin Mains ?


----------



## Rudianos

muziksculp said:


> What are the ones in the Berklee version that are not in Berlin Mains ?


Solo Strings, Harp, Bass Clarinet, Contrabassoon ... and that would be compared to the Berlin Mains Sine collection.


----------



## Fry777

Reviewing these libraries, I wanted to see how they would cope on the softer/mellower side of the spectrum so I recently did this mockup of an Iron Giant track by Michael Kamen (2nd half of "Souls don't Die").
This is all Berlin main libraries (though the Harp is from the Berklee orchestra), with CC1/CC11 data, tempo automation, and a limiter on the bus. VSS3 is used to add a bit of tail only.
I think it shows the strengths and weaknesses of the libraries quite well, but this is only my second mockup, so some parts might be able to sound better in more expert hands.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0yj1h69582jr72q/Berlin%20Orchestra%20-%20Iron%20Giant%20-%20Souls%20Don%27t%20Die%20Mockup.wav?dl=0


----------



## muziksculp

Rudianos said:


> Solo Strings, Harp, Bass Clarinet, Contrabassoon ... and that would be compared to the Berlin Mains Sine collection.


THANKS 

I got the voucher, although I don't have a laptop for music production, I might just install it on my main Studio PC, it could be a useful library, and maybe even to use as a lightweight sketching template.


----------



## bfreepro

Fry777 said:


> Reviewing these libraries, I wanted to see how they would cope on the softer/mellower side of the spectrum so I recently did this mockup of an Iron Giant track by Michael Kamen (2nd half of "Souls don't Die").
> This is all Berlin main libraries (though the Harp is from the Berklee orchestra), with CC1/CC11 data, tempo automation, and a limiter on the bus. VSS3 is used to add a bit of tail only.
> I think it shows the strengths and weaknesses of the libraries quite well, but this is only my second mockup, so some parts might be able to sound better in more expert hands.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/0yj1h69582jr72q/Berlin%20Orchestra%20-%20Iron%20Giant%20-%20Souls%20Don%27t%20Die%20Mockup.wav?dl=0


SINE or Kontakt versions? Nicely done!


----------



## andyhy

Jose7822 said:


> Same!! 🤘😉
> 
> My faith in OT is getting slowly restored. However, need to see how well they’ll handle bug fixes. I’m happy for now.


I agree. I thnk we need to cut them some slack. These are challenging times with the pandemic. I always find OT very helpful so I don't join in the chorus of criticism. SINE Factory alone amazes me qualitywise. So many good things about OT and the SINE Berlin Series I'm really enjoying. I've made several templates using different libraries together and the Berlin series always shines. Just my opinion.


----------



## muziksculp

@OrchestralTools

Thank You for the *Free *Berlin Orchestra Berklee Library 

Also Looking forward to the Main Berlin Orchestral Libraries (SINE) Updates.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Hendrixon said:


> Solo Violin I
> Solo Violin II
> Solo Viola
> Solo Cello
> Solo Bass
> Harp
> Bass Clarinet
> Contrabassoon
> 
> * Timpani was added to Perc on SINE.


Thanks, I didn't realise it's just mix mic position but it's still a nice guesture


----------



## Jett Hitt

I downloaded BO today, and I thought I would take it out for a spin. I wanted to load the entire thing into Logic just to see what kind of footprint it had. I didn't get very far, though. I began building a template for it in score order. I got through the woodwinds and started on the brass, and then Sine crashed Logic. 5 times it crashed, so I finally restarted the computer. I mostly had to start over. 

The second time I began to reload all of the instruments, I grew really annoyed at the library interface. Each time you have to open Sine, scroll through all of your libraries until you get to BO (which is of course the last one), open the corresponding folder, and drag the instrument. There is no dragging between different Sine windows like you can do in Kontakt. Because there are really no shortcuts to the interface, this turned into a long, cumbersome process. It took most of the evening to load all the instruments into Logic. The library came in at about 18GB.


----------



## Fry777

bfreepro said:


> SINE or Kontakt versions? Nicely done!



It's the SINE versions, I don't have the Kontakt ones


----------



## bfreepro

Fry777 said:


> It's the SINE versions, I don't have the Kontakt ones


I thought so by the tone of the strings, there’s a bit less roominess and you can especially tell during the legato transitions. I’m actually still using the Kontakt versions for now except the percussion with SINE.


----------



## PaulieDC

I got the Berklee version today also, and I read the License agreement but didn't see anything about # of PCs... so it got me thinking about all the OT stuff I have on SINE: does OT allow two installs?


----------



## holywilly

PaulieDC said:


> I got the Berklee version today also, and I read the License agreement but didn't see anything about # of PCs... so it got me thinking about all the OT stuff I have on SINE: does OT allow two installs?


3 computers. I've confirmed via OT support.


----------



## PaulieDC

holywilly said:


> 3 computers. I've confirmed via OT support.


👍🏼😁


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> I downloaded BO today, and I thought I would take it out for a spin. I wanted to load the entire thing into Logic just to see what kind of footprint it had. I didn't get very far, though. I began building a template for it in score order. I got through the woodwinds and started on the brass, and then Sine crashed Logic. 5 times it crashed, so I finally restarted the computer. I mostly had to start over.
> 
> The second time I began to reload all of the instruments, I grew really annoyed at the library interface. Each time you have to open Sine, scroll through all of your libraries until you get to BO (which is of course the last one), open the corresponding folder, and drag the instrument. There is no dragging between different Sine windows like you can do in Kontakt. Because there are really no shortcuts to the interface, this turned into a long, cumbersome process. It took most of the evening to load all the instruments into Logic. The library came in at about 18GB.


Yeah, I hope the library organization in Sine gets attention from OT soon. It’s a miserable experience. To be fair, Kontakt isn’t great either. Nor is the SF player. And most soft synths have miserable browsing experiences as well. But Sine is especially bad, and gives no ability to control its layout or appearance. It also gets worse the more Sine instruments you own, and it’s beginning to become a disincentive to buying additional Sine libraries. OT should really take note of that.


----------



## jbuhler

bfreepro said:


> I thought so by the tone of the strings, there’s a bit less roominess and you can especially tell during the legato transitions. I’m actually still using the Kontakt versions for now except the percussion with SINE.


I generally prefer the sound of the Sine version of the strings. I agree they sound different and I’m not entirely sure why. It seems more than a difference in scripting. 

The workflow on Sine is so much better for me, it’s not even a contest. I do still occasionally use the standalone legato patches from Kontakt. But I’ve all but given up the Capsule patches.


----------



## holywilly

I really hope one day OT will implement the legato patch from kontakt (attacks triggered via velocity) into SINE as a single legato articulation. I understand that we can design the same patch by using polymap, switching between polymap never a smooth experience.


----------



## Soundbed

jbuhler said:


> Kontakt isn’t great either


You can have one Kontakt browser tab remain open and drag each instrument into other Kontakt instances. It is great.


----------



## Go To 11

holywilly said:


> I really hope one day OT will implement the legato patch from kontakt (attacks triggered via velocity) into SINE as a single legato articulation. I understand that we can design the same patch by using polymap, switching between polymap never a smooth experience.


Why they don't have presets baffles me. Sine has turned us all into programmers, not composers, building patches that used to come as standard.


----------



## Hendrixon

Soundbed said:


> You can have one Kontakt browser tab remain open and drag each instrument into other Kontakt instances. It is great.


Wish this was possible with open instruments


----------



## jbuhler

Soundbed said:


> You can have one Kontakt browser tab remain open and drag each instrument into other Kontakt instances. It is great.


It’s better than sine. It’s still not great.


----------



## jbuhler

holywilly said:


> I really hope one day OT will implement the legato patch from kontakt (attacks triggered via velocity) into SINE as a single legato articulation. I understand that we can design the same patch by using polymap, switching between polymap never a smooth experience.


Yes, polymap needs better functionality, the ability to mix between groups and instruments, and especially a lock function.


----------



## holywilly

Also, if articulations of the same instrument in different midi channels from the same SINE instance are able to share the same mic positions resource that will be truly awesome.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> You can have one Kontakt browser tab remain open and drag each instrument into other Kontakt instances. It is great.


I alluded to this above. If I could have done this in Sine, it would have cut the build time of my template by 2/3s.


----------



## Soundbed

Jett Hitt said:


> I alluded to this above. If I could have done this in Sine, it would have cut the build time of my template by 2/3s.


So now that you have it all built out, do you like it?


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> So now that you have it all built out, do you like it?


Honestly, it took so long that I went to bed. I may play with it this evening. However, after playing through lots of the patches, there is a very noticeable difference between this and the Mains. If I were recommending an all-in-one orchestra, this would not be my first choice, given the price.

Edit: Scrap that. It's my wife's birthday, so I won't be playing with it this evening.


----------



## Soundbed

Jett Hitt said:


> Honestly, it took so long that I went to bed. I may play with it this evening. However, after playing through lots of the patches, there is a very noticeable difference between this and the Mains. If I were recommending an all-in-one orchestra, this would not be my first choice, given the price.
> 
> Edit: Scrap that. It's my wife's birthday, so I won't be playing with it this evening.


No rush. I’d be interested in hearing more opinions whenever. I opted not to get any Berlin stuff in the last sale so I’m having fomo lol.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Soundbed said:


> No rush. I’d be interested in hearing more opinions whenever. I opted not to get any Berlin stuff in the last sale so I’m having fomo lol.


You will likely have the same opportunity again next Black Friday, and maybe by then, everything will work.


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> Yeah, I hope the library organization in Sine gets attention from OT soon. It’s a miserable experience. To be fair, Kontakt isn’t great either. Nor is the SF player. And most soft synths have miserable browsing experiences as well. But Sine is especially bad, and gives no ability to control its layout or appearance. It also gets worse the more Sine instruments you own, and it’s beginning to become a disincentive to buying additional Sine libraries. OT should really take note of that.


I also think it's wasted space. Every library is this massive icon that does nothing, you need to click a tiny little button anyway. Even if they can't/won't allow users to change the order of libraries, usability would still be massively improved by just removing, shrinking, or grid-ing the massive icons so that you can see most of your stuff without even scrolling


----------



## ism

Casiquire said:


> I also think it's wasted space. Every library is this massive icon that does nothing, you need to click a tiny little button anyway. Even if they can't/won't allow users to change the order of libraries, usability would still be massively improved by just removing, shrinking, or grid-ing the massive icons so that you can see most of your stuff without even scrolling


I actually think it's quite nice ... until you pass 5 or 6 libraries.


----------



## Casiquire

Soundbed said:


> No rush. I’d be interested in hearing more opinions whenever. I opted not to get any Berlin stuff in the last sale so I’m having fomo lol.


My first impression is that the harp sounds really gorgeous. I listened to the demos and thought they sounded just fine, but wow having them under my fingers even with just one mic I'm pretty impressed. I even own a harp, but i still might pick up the full harps from OT after hearing how nice they sound.

The first chairs sound solid but I'd only use them for an occasional leading line or as a first chair. I wasn't crazy about the legato and took it down a few db for every instrument i tried, but once i did that they sounded really nice and natural. 

It doesn't sound like there's much "adaptive" legato. Maybe there's some work under the hood, but it's not the nice smooth adaptive we're used to from the full libraries, so quick moves or very slow flowing playing aren't as effective, but that depends on the instrument.

Overall it's really nice for giving me a taste of what the full libraries I'm missing sound like. I'm glad they did this


----------



## Rudianos

Jett Hitt said:


> I downloaded BO today, and I thought I would take it out for a spin. I wanted to load the entire thing into Logic just to see what kind of footprint it had. I didn't get very far, though. I began building a template for it in score order. I got through the woodwinds and started on the brass, and then Sine crashed Logic. 5 times it crashed, so I finally restarted the computer. I mostly had to start over.
> 
> The second time I began to reload all of the instruments, I grew really annoyed at the library interface. Each time you have to open Sine, scroll through all of your libraries until you get to BO (which is of course the last one), open the corresponding folder, and drag the instrument. There is no dragging between different Sine windows like you can do in Kontakt. Because there are really no shortcuts to the interface, this turned into a long, cumbersome process. It took most of the evening to load all the instruments into Logic. The library came in at about 18GB.


there is a magnify glass search button at top to search your library names or instrument.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Rudianos said:


> there is a magnify glass search button at top to search your library names or instrument.


Yeah, but you have to know what you are looking for, and if you are trying to load the entire orchestra, you have to be able to see what's there. Go ahead and try to load all the BO percussion patches without knowing what they are called.


----------



## Jett Hitt

When I first started using Sine with just BSS, I loved it. (I still like it a lot.) But now with 13 libraries, it is a wreck. What we really need is the ability to turn off the graphic icons and the ability to drag and drop between windows.


----------



## Soundbed

Casiquire said:


> My first impression is that the harp sounds really gorgeous. I listened to the demos and thought they sounded just fine, but wow having them under my fingers even with just one mic I'm pretty impressed. I even own a harp, but i still might pick up the full harps from OT after hearing how nice they sound.
> 
> The first chairs sound solid but I'd only use them for an occasional leading line or as a first chair. I wasn't crazy about the legato and took it down a few db for every instrument i tried, but once i did that they sounded really nice and natural.
> 
> It doesn't sound like there's much "adaptive" legato. Maybe there's some work under the hood, but it's not the nice smooth adaptive we're used to from the full libraries, so quick moves or very slow flowing playing aren't as effective, but that depends on the instrument.
> 
> Overall it's really nice for giving me a taste of what the full libraries I'm missing sound like. I'm glad they did this


Sounds like a great starter for students.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> When I first started using Sine with just BSS, I loved it. (I still like it a lot.) But now with 13 libraries, it is a wreck. What we really need is the ability to turn off the graphic icons and the ability to drag and drop between windows.


This. It was fine as long as the number of libraries is low. But it quickly becomes completely unwieldy. And it’s another of these things about Sine that makes me wonder if anyone at OT is actually using the Sine player regularly to compose with. I just don’t see how they could allow these design choices if they were using it regularly.


----------



## Hendrixon

jbuhler said:


> This. It was fine as long as the number of libraries is low. But it quickly becomes completely unwieldy. And it’s another of these things about Sine that makes me wonder if anyone at OT is actually using the Sine player regularly to compose with. I just don’t see how they could allow these design choices if they were using it regularly.


You can replace OT and Sine with Spitfire and SA Player... rest of the text will still be 100% valid


----------



## Rudianos

Jett Hitt said:


> When I first started using Sine with just BSS, I loved it. (I still like it a lot.) But now with 13 libraries, it is a wreck. What we really need is the ability to turn off the graphic icons and the ability to drag and drop between windows.


So maybe an option to collapse the graphics and just a have a straight text list of instruments, good idea and an easy fix EASY ... @OrchestralTools are you listening?


----------



## jbuhler

Hendrixon said:


> You can replace OT and Sine with Spitfire and SA Player... rest of the text will still be 100% valid


Pretty much. But SF player has different players for different libraries which helps some and SF player allows favorites. But I wouldn’t say the SF player gives a pleasant browsing experience. And neither does Kontakt. Though Kontakt has better workarounds.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

The SF player is much better to me (from a functionality and design standpoint - it is actually quite stunning from a design standpoint) - but anyway, as this is a Commercial thread, let's stick to SINE.

I had noted a number of puzzling UI "decisions" when SINE was first released (only to be attacked by a YouTuber here). But they remain to this day:
- Putting all the advanced functionality in a small box in the bottom right where they are quickly running out of space
- Huge amount of wasted / negative space (and not for design aesthetic reasons) on pretty much every screen inside the player
- Poor contrast and separation in the mixer UI
- Numerous confusing UI choices on the polymap setup page

I've never had an issue with the Capsule UI - it works and allows for a lot of functionality / customization. I hope OT revisits some of the SINE UI in future updates.


----------



## muziksculp

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The SF player is much better to me (from a functionality and design standpoint - it is actually quite stunning from a design standpoint) - but anyway, as this is a Commercial thread, let's stick to SINE.
> 
> I had noted a number of puzzling UI "decisions" when SINE was first released (only to be attacked by a YouTuber here). But they remain to this day:
> - Putting all the advanced functionality in a small box in the bottom right where they are quickly running out of space
> - Huge amount of wasted / negative space (and not for design aesthetic reasons) on pretty much every screen inside the player
> - Poor contrast and separation in the mixer UI
> - Numerous confusing UI choices on the polymap setup page
> 
> I've never had an issue with the Capsule UI - it works and allows for a lot of functionality / customization. I hope OT revisits some of the SINE UI in future updates.


Yes, they need to hire a new GUI designer.


----------



## Zhao Shen

Honestly I was surprised about this. IMO Orchestral Tools has always done well with UI that evolved with the times, from their early days to Capsule. Elegant but useful. Was very taken aback by Sine, maybe they tried to reinvent the wheel a bit too much.

Kontakt has a somewhat clunky browser, but Sine is definitely a degradation in user experience. The browser is very organized and beautiful, but is also a huge space waster and not at all customizable. The latter is a problem because the default organization (by library collection) isn't very useful to me.

I think about UX a lot for my job, and I saw Sine as a chance to improve on some of Kontakt's weak points. I wanted a browser that could do away with Kontakt's one-column, static list design and work with a compact grid layout for libraries. Sine's existing library pop-out overlay would work perfectly with this scheme because it could display over the grid as opposed to Kontakt's "every action has an effect on vertical list space" approach.

I've thrown together a super quick PhotoShop that shows the difference. I'm not shrinking any text or even changing the format of OT library art. My "compact grid" isn't even actually compact - you could make settings a cog icon instead of a button or nest it within the expanded library details. Happy to make a more detailed mock if OT is interested in iterating on the Sine browser - there are plenty of other things that would level up the experience in ways that Kontakt would struggle to do for legacy reasons, from custom sorting to user folders to tags/filters and more.


----------



## FrozenIcicle

Offtopic- does a la carte instruments align with the into sale discount? Or are they always full price matter what. Those pan pipes are tempting


----------



## jbuhler

Zhao Shen said:


> Honestly I was surprised about this. IMO Orchestral Tools has always done well with UI that evolved with the times, from their early days to Capsule. Elegant but useful. Was very taken aback by Sine, maybe they tried to reinvent the wheel a bit too much.
> 
> Kontakt has a somewhat clunky browser, but Sine is definitely a degradation in user experience. The browser is very organized and beautiful, but is also a huge space waster and not at all customizable. The latter is a problem because the default organization (by library collection) isn't very useful to me.
> 
> I think about UX a lot for my job, and I saw Sine as a chance to improve on some of Kontakt's weak points. I wanted a browser that could do away with Kontakt's one-column, static list design and work with a compact grid layout for libraries. Sine's existing library pop-out overlay would work perfectly with this scheme because it could display over the grid as opposed to Kontakt's "every action has an effect on vertical list space" approach.
> 
> I've thrown together a super quick PhotoShop that shows the difference. I'm not shrinking any text or even changing the format of OT library art. My "compact grid" isn't even actually compact - you could make settings a cog icon instead of a button or nest it within the expanded library details. Happy to make a more detailed mock if OT is interested in iterating on the Sine browser - there are plenty of other things that would level up the experience in ways that Kontakt would struggle to do for legacy reasons, from custom sorting to user folders to tags/filters and more.


Even Capsule with all the functionality it allows the user has some peculiar limits that users can’t override. OT seems to have doubled down on these limits in Sine in the fear of making it overly complex. And the result is a user experience that is tedious and often feels arbitrarily restricted, and all of it makes Sine feel curiously hostile toward the way I want to use it. Still, on the whole it delivers a better experience for me than using Capsule.


----------



## Rudianos

FrozenIcicle said:


> Offtopic- does a la carte instruments align with the into sale discount? Or are they always full price matter what. Those pan pipes are tempting


ive always seen them full price - and very high proportion relative to the bundle. But if you only want 1 or 2 ... then its good


----------



## jbuhler

Rudianos said:


> ive always seen them full price - and very high proportion relative to the bundle. But if you only want 1 or 2 ... then its good


You pay about a 30% premium or rather about 70% of the purchase price of the individual instruments applies to the purchase of the full library.


----------



## andyhy

Jett Hitt said:


> I downloaded BO today, and I thought I would take it out for a spin. I wanted to load the entire thing into Logic just to see what kind of footprint it had. I didn't get very far, though. I began building a template for it in score order. I got through the woodwinds and started on the brass, and then Sine crashed Logic. 5 times it crashed, so I finally restarted the computer. I mostly had to start over.
> 
> The second time I began to reload all of the instruments, I grew really annoyed at the library interface. Each time you have to open Sine, scroll through all of your libraries until you get to BO (which is of course the last one), open the corresponding folder, and drag the instrument. There is no dragging between different Sine windows like you can do in Kontakt. Because there are really no shortcuts to the interface, this turned into a long, cumbersome process. It took most of the evening to load all the instruments into Logic. The library came in at about 18GB.


It's a pity that Logic users are having these problems with SINE. I use Reaper and SINE has been lock solid for me. OT must prioritize fixing this problem for Logic users as it's too big a market to ignore.


----------



## tim727

jbuhler said:


> You pay about a 30% premium or rather about 70% of the purchase price of the individual instruments applies to the purchase of the full library.


It is _not_ 70%. At least in my experience it has been 60%. For instance the full Miroire library costs 400 euros. I bought each of the choirs for 100 euros in aggregate. If the 70% number were correct then my price to "complete" the library would be about 330 euros, but instead it's 340 euros.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Because I had so much trouble building a template for BO in Logic, I decided to try and build a string template for BS, SB, and BSS today in VePro 7. Wow, I have never seen anything crash VePro like this. I can't count the number of crashes I had just trying to load instruments into VePro. These libraries are pretty much unusable to me as is. I don't have this problem with any other player, just Sine. WTAF? So frustrating.


----------



## jbuhler

tim727 said:


> It is _not_ 70%. At least in my experience it has been 60%. For instance the full Miroire library costs 400 euros. I bought each of the choirs for 100 euros in aggregate. If the 70% number were correct then my price to "complete" the library would be about 330 euros, but instead it's 340 euros.


I just know what the OT support told me when I asked awhile back, and it corresponded to what I paid for some JXL individual instruments compared to completing the whole. But they had far fewer individual instruments for sale back then and may have changed the pricing.


----------



## jbuhler

Jett Hitt said:


> Because I had so much trouble building a template for BO in Logic, I decided to try and build a string template for BS, SB, and BSS today in VePro 7. Wow, I have never seen anything crash VePro like this. I can't count the number of crashes I had just trying to load instruments into VePro. These libraries are pretty much unusable to me as is. I don't have this problem with any other player, just Sine. WTAF? So frustrating.


It's weird because I will have Logic projects where Sine instruments hang every time (I don't use VEP), and then I'll have other projects where everything works fine. And I've never been able to isolate the problem. I can remove all the Sine instruments from the Sine hanging project and it will be fine. But then I add a single Sine instrument back in, and the hangs start again. But then I have other projects with countless Sine instruments and they work perfectly fine. These both start from the same basic template, so that doesn't seem to be the issue. And once a project starts exhibiting the problem, there is no getting rid of it. Loading into Logic there is the easy workaround of disabling all the Sine instruments before close so that the next time the project opens, the Sine instances are disabled. Because there is never an issue when the Sine instances are manually enabled. It's only the startup enabling that cause the issue.


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> It's weird because I will have Logic projects where Sine instruments hang every time (I don't use VEP), and then I'll have other projects where everything works fine. And I've never been able to isolate the problem. I can remove all the Sine instruments from the Sine hanging project and it will be fine. But then I add a single Sine instrument back in, and the hangs start again. But then I have other projects with countless Sine instruments and they work perfectly fine. These both start from the same basic template, so that doesn't seem to be the issue. And once a project starts exhibiting the problem, there is no getting rid of it. Loading into Logic there is the easy workaround of disabling all the Sine instruments before close so that the next time the project opens, the Sine instances are disabled. Because there is never an issue when the Sine instances are manually enabled. It's only the startup enabling that cause the issue.


I heard about people having your issues, but I never had that problem with BSS. It just worked for me. Same for SB, BFC, and WW Soloists. I don't know now whether my problems are related to the Berlin Mains, the new Sine update, Logic 10.5, Mohave, VePro . . . . I just don't know. I do know that I spent a bundle on these, and in their current state, they are unusable. Hell, I just added 128 GB of RAM. The fact that it was crashing Vepro before I ever opened Logic tells me that it likely isn't a Logic problem. I seem to have gotten VePro to stabilize, but as soon as I open Logic and hit a note, it crashes VePro in the background. This is infuriating. And now in a few days, OT is going to announce something new. I'm sort of left speechless.


----------



## Marsen

They must adress this, before they even talk about a new era.
This is inacceptable.


----------



## Jett Hitt

OMFG!!!! 10 hours later, and I finally figured it out. It is the runs patch in BS that is crashing VePro. Thanks OT, so glad I could be your beta tester. Next time please don't make me pay for the beta copy.


----------



## Jett Hitt

I finally got the string template set up, and I decided to add the rest of the orchestra. Just loading the instruments into Sine in VePro caused crashes repeatedly. I didn't even get the brass added before I gave up.


----------



## Jose7822

Man, that really sucks :-(.


----------



## Jose7822

I’ve been having issues too, but not with SINE. It hasn’t crashed Studio One, nor my system yet. My problem is that one of my RAM sticks went bad. The system works, but it’s a little unstable. Unfortunately RAM is so expensive these days, wow! I was going to use this as an excuse to upgrade to 128GB, but that’s $1,000 USD today. I remember buying 64GB for a fraction of that. Crazy!!


----------



## Rudianos

Sometimes I have noticed that re scanning crashing libraries helps. Using + Collection near top of Library feed.. Select the number folder that contains the library in SINE Content folder. Sometimes when adding or moving libraries - other ones get jacked. No clear cause yet.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Rudianos said:


> Sometimes I have noticed that re scanning crashing libraries helps. Using + Collection near top of Library feed.. Select the number folder that contains the library in SINE Content folder. Sometimes when adding or moving libraries - other ones get jacked. No clear cause yet.


How do you know which folders correspond to a library?


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Jett Hitt said:


> How do you know which folders correspond to a library?


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## synergy543

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Hahahahahahahahahahahaha


Hahahaha! I thought someone had a map that would outline all of this? No?

I started to make one, by watching which numbers were loading as I was installing some libraries but I got sleepy (or lazy) and didn't get them all. For example:

1099 is Piccolo Flute
1100 is Flute 1
1101 is Flute 2

Come on....someone (cough...cough...OT) has a full map you could share no? This way, when our SSDs fill up, we can select which libraries we want to pull to another drive. If not, then how do we manage libraries when we discover our SSD was too small?


----------



## Jett Hitt

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Hahahahahahahahahahahaha


Yeah, that's what I thought. When I opened that folder and saw all those numbered folders, all I could think was, "Oh how German."


----------



## Jose7822

Most of those folders are grouped in order though, so it’s not too bad. The one that wasn’t was a folder for one of the percussion instruments. I think it was the “Toys” folder, which was placed after one of the other sections (which was at the end of the entire Berlin collection).

Make sure you keep the same folder structure when you move the files though. It might not be needed, but it doesn’t hurt in case it does matter.


----------



## Rudianos

Jett Hitt said:


> How do you know which folders correspond to a library?


best you can do is go to the settings and little arrow of each library and remember the library numbers


----------



## Jose7822

Alright you lazy bastards. Here you go:


Percussion (1015 - 1074 & 1128)

Strings (1075 - 1098)

Woodwinds (1099 - 1110)

Brass (1111 - 1127)


There!!


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Jose7822 said:


> Most of those folders are grouped in order though, so it’s not too bad. The one that wasn’t was a folder for one of the percussion instruments. I think it was the “Toys” folder, which was placed after one of the other sections (which was at the end of the entire Berlin collection).
> 
> Make sure you keep the same folder structure when you move the files though. It might not be needed, but it doesn’t hurt in case it does matter.


not too bad? I find it quite absurd.

And I still have Ark 3,4, micro, macro to add (OSR n Sphere if they port them too)..oh and winds SFX, brass mutes and string sfx. .

Though I will admit, I didn't know you could look up the numbers in Sine. Still a really shit time when you want to rearrange your drives.

View attachment 2021-12-20_14-03-50.mp4


----------



## Jose7822

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> not too bad? I find it quite absurd.
> 
> And I still have Ark 3,4, micro, macro to add (OSR n Sphere if they port them too)..oh and winds SFX, brass mutes and string sfx. .
> 
> Though I will admit, I didn't know you could look up the numbers in Sine. Still a really shit time when you want to rearrange your drives.
> 
> View attachment 2021-12-20_14-03-50.mp4


Well, I made it a little bit easier for you 😉.

You’re welcome 🤗.


----------



## Jett Hitt

Jose7822 said:


> Alright you lazy bastards. Here you go:
> 
> 
> Percussion (1015 - 1074 & 1128)
> 
> Strings (1075 - 1098)
> 
> Woodwinds (1099 - 1110)
> 
> Brass (1111 - 1127)
> 
> 
> There!!


I fully admit that I had never clicked on that Settings button, and it would have never occurred to me to look there. I've been too busy restarting the computer as Sine wreaks havoc on VePro. I have finally successfully loaded the entire setup that I want. VePro is taking up about 66GB with this setup, and that is just one mic. The RAM meter at the top of Sine does not work in VePro.


----------



## jonathanwright

I can't seem to get trills to trigger correctly using CC03 (Cubase/Mac).

The slider moves as it should in SINE, but the articulation doesn't change. If I press a key on my keyboard it will play the correct one, but not when playing back MIDI.


----------



## jonathanwright

jonathanwright said:


> I’ve been using Sine in Cubase without any issues, but began a project in Logic and there are definitely a few bugs there.
> 
> Several of the legato patches won’t load at all, the progress bar sticks.


Just updating my previous post.

After a short email exchange with OT, it looks like creating mic merges then updating SINE caused the issue with patches not loading. Deleting the custom mic's solved it.

OT have reproduced the issue and logged it to be fixed.


----------



## Agnus Dei

It seems you have to have all of the (Four) normal libraries to receive the free Berklee edition


----------



## muziksculp

Agnus Dei said:


> It seems you have to have all of the (Four) normal libraries to receive the free Berklee edition


Yes.


----------



## muziksculp

Hi @OrchestralTools ,

Can we expect updates to Berlin Series on SINE libraries in the near future ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


----------



## Agnus Dei

What updates are you looking for in particular? (I bought the symphonic strings and WW and soon to buy the rest)


----------



## OrchestralTools

muziksculp said:


> Hi @OrchestralTools ,
> 
> Can we expect updates to Berlin Series on SINE libraries in the near future ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Muziksculp


Hello, 

In short, yes! We're in the process of updating the Berlin Series on SINE, and we're working hard to get those updates out into the world. 

Addressing our community's feedback on the Berlin Series is a high priority for us, and we'll have something to share in the not-so-distant future. 

Best,
OT


----------



## muziksculp

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello,
> 
> In short, yes! We're in the process of updating the Berlin Series on SINE, and we're working hard to get those updates out into the world.
> 
> Addressing our community's feedback on the Berlin Series is a high priority for us, and we'll have something to share in the not-so-distant future.
> 
> Best,
> OT


Hi @OrchestralTools ,

That's wonderful news to hear from you. 🧡 😎👍

Thank You so much for replying to my question.

I really appreciate all the wonderful libraries you are developing for us. Your Berlin Orch. Series is very special. I look forward to enjoy these libraries even more when you have them improved via the upcoming updates. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


----------



## muziksculp

@OrchestralTools ,

I forgot to mention that the* Niente functionality in SINE* when using the Berlin Series needs to be improved, I get a abrupt un-natural jump down to silence when using CC1, instead of a nice and smooth gradual fade to silence. The Kontakt versions have a better Niente quality.

Please try to improve it in the upcoming updates.

Thanks.


----------



## jbuhler

muziksculp said:


> @OrchestralTools ,
> 
> I forgot to mention that the* Niente functionality in SINE* when using the Berlin Series needs to be improved, I get a abrupt un-natural jump down to silence when using CC1, instead of a nice and smooth gradual fade to silence. The Kontakt versions have a better Niente quality.
> 
> Please try to improve it in the upcoming updates.
> 
> Thanks.


Did you contact support directly about this? That's the best way to ensure it gets entered properly into the system. 

I'm still hoping that OT starts to show evidence of producing timely updates, and I think they'd do better to drop smaller maintenance updates on libraries at shorter regular intervals rather than waiting until everything is done. With the mains, for instance, they could commit to small monthly updates for several months rather than waiting several months or even a year or more (hello, BSS) to offer updates. That might be more of a pain for those with templates that would need more updating, but those users could wait to update if it was too much trouble. Meanwhile the rest of us would see that progress is being made. And OT should recognize that it still has something of a credibility gap on delivering maintenance updates. Statements alone won't fix that credibility gap.


----------



## dzilizzi

jbuhler said:


> Did you contact support directly about this? That's the best way to ensure it gets entered properly into the system.
> 
> I'm still hoping that OT starts to show evidence of producing timely updates, and I think they'd do better to drop smaller maintenance updates on libraries at shorter regular intervals rather than waiting until everything is done. With the mains, for instance, they could commit to small monthly updates for several months rather than waiting several months or even a year or more (hello, BSS) to offer updates. That might be more of a pain for those with templates that would need more updating, but those users could wait to update if it was too much trouble. Meanwhile the rest of us would see that progress is being made. And OT should recognize that it still has something of a credibility gap on delivering maintenance updates. Statements alone won't fix that credibility gap.


The problem with creating your own player is you also have to fix it when things go wrong. You can't blame it on another company.


----------



## Rudianos

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello,
> 
> In short, yes! We're in the process of updating the Berlin Series on SINE, and we're working hard to get those updates out into the world.
> 
> Addressing our community's feedback on the Berlin Series is a high priority for us, and we'll have something to share in the not-so-distant future.
> 
> Best,
> OT


Thanks for the response. The more time I spend in this player the more functionality I discover. A few tuning issues with some of the brass and other things mentioned on this forum. It is a fast player though and 7 weeks without any crashes.


----------



## muziksculp

jbuhler said:


> Did you contact support directly about this? That's the best way to ensure it gets entered properly into the system.


Yes, Sent today.


----------



## kmm08

Does current SINE Player 1.0.8 work with Windows 11? Can't find any confirmation anywhere.


----------



## Rudianos

kmm08 said:


> Does current SINE Player 1.0.8 work with Windows 11? Can't find any confirmation anywhere.


it does I use it on 11


----------



## kmm08

Good to hear. Haven't hear confirmation form OT as of yet. Looking to upgrade form an old Mac Pro to a new Windows 11 tower.


----------



## Rudianos

kmm08 said:


> Good to hear. Haven't hear confirmation form OT as of yet. Looking to upgrade form an old Mac Pro to a new Windows 11 tower.


I was a bit apprehensive when upgrading. But Kontakt, Cakewalk, Synchron, VI Pro, Falcon, UVI - all good


----------



## kmm08

Thanks for the info!


----------



## G_Erland

A thought about those updates, and I know that most here are talking about lib spesific fixes - but thinking about Sine Im starting to see how different libraries are somewhat different in functionality - and while we all wait for the 2.0 which should be incredibly interesting, thats a perspective perhaps missing here, a glean into a strategy perhaps, that lib spesific functionality to a degree replaces player-wide updates. Questionmark.


----------



## [email protected]

I decided to try out my SINE licenses for the _Berlin Series_ which I already have for Kontakt. And while downloading I again wondered why SINE doesn't manage to show me the download proceedings in a proper way, i. e. why does the interface freeze, these "loading bars" just disappear etc.?
Is it a technical issue or rooted in my internet connection (which is normally very stable) or system?


----------



## Evans

[email protected] said:


> I decided to try out my SINE licenses for the _Berlin Series_ which I already have for Kontakt. And while downloading I again wondered why SINE doesn't manage to show me the download proceedings in a proper way, i. e. why does the interface freeze, these "loading bars" just disappear etc.?
> Is it a technical issue or rooted in my internet connection (which is normally very stable) or system?


Do you click around to other SINE tabs/screens during a download? I find that I have to touch _absolutely nothing_ and only then will it run smoothly with no freezes.

That said, SINE in actual action using VIs is rock solid for me these days.


----------



## [email protected]

SINE works as a Player for me but I didn't click on anything when the download started. Still the "download bars" disappeared without the downloads being finished.


----------



## Samuel

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello,
> 
> In short, yes! We're in the process of updating the Berlin Series on SINE, and we're working hard to get those updates out into the world.
> 
> Addressing our community's feedback on the Berlin Series is a high priority for us, and we'll have something to share in the not-so-distant future.
> 
> Best,
> OT


I would really like a SATB choir from Berlin with solo singers and an SA choir of children. Will this dream come true???


----------



## Gensaii

Samuel said:


> I would really like a SATB choir from Berlin with solo singers and an SA choir of children. Will this dream come true???


I second this for sure. Always been looking forward to a choir library by Orchestral Tools.


----------



## Casiquire

I'd rather see SINE improvements than a new library right now. I'm still using almost the entire Berlin series in kontakt rather than SINE, between the lack of actual purge, the issues introduced in the switch to SINE, and the missing articulations and features. 

The lack of purge alone means that I'm not even capable of using many OT libraries in SINE. So I'm not excited for them to come out with a fully-featured choir, because the player is already too demanding on resources and i know I'd barely even be able to use it


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> I'd rather see SINE improvements than a new library right now. I'm still using almost the entire Berlin series in kontakt rather than SINE, between the lack of actual purge, the issues introduced in the switch to SINE, and the missing articulations and features.
> 
> The lack of purge alone means that I'm not even capable of using many OT libraries in SINE. So I'm not excited for them to come out with a fully-featured choir, because the player is already too demanding on resources and i know I'd barely even be able to use it


I don’t use purge much personally, but this is a big deal, especially as Sine claims to support purge. 

OT needs to do both, bring out new libraries while maintaining current libraries and improving Sine. But we’ve yet to see much yet on the maintaining and improving side.


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> I don’t use purge much personally, but this is a big deal, especially as Sine claims to support purge.
> 
> OT needs to do both, bring out new libraries while maintaining current libraries and improving Sine. But we’ve yet to see much yet on the maintaining and improving side.


How much RAM do you have? I don't see any way to use a full orchestral template in SINE without purge. OT records individual instruments, and each one will probably take 2-5 gigs of ram. There are some ten to twelve brass instruments alone, not including the ensembles. The math doesn't add up, unless you have over a hundred gigs of ram


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> I'd rather see SINE improvements than a new library right now. I'm still using almost the entire Berlin series in kontakt rather than SINE, between the lack of actual purge, the issues introduced in the switch to SINE, and the missing articulations and features.
> 
> The lack of purge alone means that I'm not even capable of using many OT libraries in SINE. So I'm not excited for them to come out with a fully-featured choir, because the player is already too demanding on resources and i know I'd barely even be able to use it


Agree. I don’t even use Berlin Strings due to the RAM requirements and lack of purge. Too many other options nowadays that have better workflows. Been almost 6 months since the Berlin series launched on SINE and no improvements by OT on the player or the various library editing / scripting issues. Yet they continue to release other libraries - 3 or 4 big ones in that span. They continue to refuse offering a crossgrade to Kontakt for those of us that want it. Radio silence apart from promising they care. Seems like lip service. Very frustrating.


----------



## Zanshin

Casiquire said:


> How much RAM do you have? I don't see any way to use a full orchestral template in SINE without purge. OT records individual instruments, and each one will probably take 2-5 gigs of ram. There are some ten to twelve brass instruments alone, not including the ensembles. The math doesn't add up, unless you have over a hundred gigs of ram


Yep. I don’t think @jbuhler has all of Berlin. I just have strings and brass and it’s very ram hungry.

Edit: 96 for ram here.


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> How much RAM do you have? I don't see any way to use a full orchestral template in SINE without purge. OT records individual instruments, and each one will probably take 2-5 gigs of ram. There are some ten to twelve brass instruments alone, not including the ensembles. The math doesn't add up, unless you have over a hundred gigs of ram


I have 128GB, but I didn't use purge much when I only had 64 GB either, though I did use it with Berlin Strings (but that was also why I didn't much use Berlin Strings in Kontakt). I used purge more when I had 32GB (even purged and using only one mic, Berlin Strings did not work very well at 32GB) and even more when I was still using my laptop with 16GB (attempts to use Berlin Strings here even with purge were quite comical!), but Logic didn't have the feature of not loading unused instruments at that time either, so purge was very much needed.


----------



## Casiquire

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Agree. I don’t even use Berlin Strings due to the RAM requirements and lack of purge. Too many other options nowadays that have better workflows. Been almost 6 months since the Berlin series launched on SINE and no improvements by OT on the player or the various library editing / scripting issues. Yet they continue to release other libraries - 3 or 4 big ones in that span. They continue to refuse offering a crossgrade to Kontakt for those of us that want it. Radio silence apart from promising they care. Seems like lip service. Very frustrating.


To be fair, there was an update to the brass 😊


----------



## muziksculp

OrchestralTools said:


> Hello,
> 
> In short, yes! We're in the process of updating the Berlin Series on SINE, and we're working hard to get those updates out into the world.
> 
> Addressing our community's feedback on the Berlin Series is a high priority for us, and we'll have something to share in the not-so-distant future.
> 
> Best,
> OT


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> To be fair, there was an update to the brass 😊


Don’t think that fixed much…


----------



## jbuhler

Zanshin said:


> Yep. I don’t think @jbuhler has all of Berlin. I just have strings and brass and it’s very ram hungry.
> 
> Edit: 96 for ram here.


I only have Berlin Strings from the Mains, plus trombone 1 from Berlin Brass. I do have all the Arks, and BSS, Special Bows, First Chairs, Tallinn, and a bunch of other OT libraries though. And I use all of those regularly in Sine. And the Times I use in Kontakt without purge.


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> I only have Berlin Strings from the Mains, plus trombone 1 from Berlin Brass. I do have all the Arks, and BSS, Special Bows, First Chairs, Tallinn, and a bunch of other OT libraries though. And I use all of those regularly in Sine. And the Times I use in Kontakt without purge.


And you have 128 gigs of ram 😛


----------



## Zanshin

jbuhler said:


> I only have Berlin Strings from the Mains, plus trombone 1 from Berlin Brass. I do have all the Arks, and BSS, Special Bows, First Chairs, Tallinn, and a bunch of other OT libraries though. And I use all of those regularly in Sine. And the Times I use in Kontakt without purge.


Sure. That’s great for you, I’m sure our concern about having a proper purge is unfounded.


----------



## jbuhler

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Don’t think that fixed much…


It is very much like the update to BSS, which fixed very few of the user reported bugs. (And those bugs are still unfixed in BSS.) Until OT commits to a regular maintenance schedule for its libraries and for Sine, I won't be convinced that OT is paying anything but lip service to these issues. 

On the other hand, I like their libraries a lot, they are mostly usable as is, so I don't want this thread to turn into another death spiral. But anyone who buys their libraries needs to recognize that any bugs you encounter are unlikely to be addressed in a timely fashion. These are very much "as is" products and you need to decide if you want to deal with that...


----------



## jbuhler

Zanshin said:


> Sure. That’s great for you, I’m sure our concern about having a proper purge is unfounded.


I never said that concern about a proper purge function is unfounded. Let's go back to what I wrote: 


jbuhler said:


> I don’t use purge much personally, but this is a big deal, especially as Sine claims to support purge.


----------



## Zanshin

jbuhler said:


> I never said that concern about a proper purge function is unfounded. Let's go back to what I wrote:


I take my sarcasm back


----------



## Casiquire

jbuhler said:


> It is very much like the update to BSS, which fixed very few of the user reported bugs. (And those bugs are still unfixed in BSS.) Until OT commits to a regular maintenance schedule for its libraries and for Sine, I won't be convinced that OT is paying anything but lip service to these issues.
> 
> On the other hand, I like their libraries a lot, they are mostly usable as is, so I don't want this thread to turn into another death spiral. But anyone who buys their libraries needs to recognize that any bugs you encounter are unlikely to be addressed in a timely fashion. These are very much "as is" products and you need to decide if you want to deal with that...


I agree. I've been encouraging users to buy the Kontakt versions, which I'm sure isn't what OT wants but at least with those versions we have purge, access to the samples, and a good sense of what's working well.


----------



## Zanshin

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Don’t think that fixed much…


Agree x1000. Like uh Trumpets a3 sustain E2 F2 for example, run through the dynamic layers for some amusement. Did I make a support ticket? Fuck no, I have better things to do (like bitch on VI-C, and sometimes work on my music).

OT either has no QA department, or it's severely understaffed. To see release after release come out with no bug fixes for flagship products, it's mind boggling. But like @jbuhler I don't want to see this death spiral again.

OT libraries... When they work, they are some of the best lol.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

Casiquire said:


> I agree. I've been encouraging users to buy the Kontakt versions, which I'm sure isn't what OT wants but at least with those versions we have purge, access to the samples, and a good sense of what's working well.


I bought the WW Soloists for Sine on sale with the intention of crossgrading to the Kontakt license of same libraries. Of course now I realize you can't - because OT won't let you


----------



## Casiquire

Zanshin said:


> Agree x1000. Like uh Trumpets a3 sustain E2 F2 for example, run through the dynamic layers for some amusement. Did I make a support ticket? Fuck no, I have better things to do (like bitch on VI-C, and sometimes work on my music).
> 
> OT either has no QA department, or it's severely understaffed. To see release after release come out with no bug fixes for flagship products, it's mind boggling. But like @jbuhler I don't want to see this death spiral again.
> 
> OT libraries... When they work, they are some of the best lol.


What I've noticed though is that new releases in SINE seem to have fewer bugs than conversions. Actually some newer libraries like Tallinn seem to have very few issues.



Henrik B. Jensen said:


> I bought the WW Soloists for Sine on sale with the intention of crossgrading to the Kontakt license of same libraries. Of course now I realize you can't - because OT won't let you


Right, unfortunately you have to buy it for Kontakt first 😔


----------



## Jett Hitt

jbuhler said:


> On the other hand, I like their libraries a lot, they are mostly usable as is, so I don't want this thread to turn into another death spiral. But anyone who buys their libraries needs to recognize that any bugs you encounter are unlikely to be addressed in a timely fashion. These are very much "as is" products and you need to decide if you want to deal with that...


This is pretty much it in a nutshell. When this thread got heated a while back, Hendrik came on to quell the fire, but it's just lip service. They'll issue an update eventually, but it'll be inconsequential. That brass update back during the Black Friday sale was the hallmark of the way they operate: feign attentiveness and carry on with business as usual.


----------



## jbuhler

Casiquire said:


> What I've noticed though is that new releases in SINE seem to have fewer bugs than conversions. Actually some newer libraries like Tallinn seem to have very few issues.


Tallinn is good. My understanding is that TH/JXL Brass is very good (though my recollection is that that one has had more updates than any other Sine library). I only have the solo trombone from it so can't speak broadly. BSS, though, is more at the level of Berlin Strings—mostly fine with an occasional irritating bug that you can almost always work around. The ports of Special Bows, Arks 1 and 2 are very good, at least with the instruments I use regularly. The port of the Berlin woodwind soloists is not good, maybe the worst of the lot, and the port of the First Chair Strings is not great either. The Organic Samples libraries released through OT are good ports. So a mixed bag all around.


----------



## Rudianos

Just in case it was not mentioned there was an update for a couple of the Arcs and Ig. Violin about 3 weeks ago. So updates do happen. Of course it is unclear what they are updating - no notes given. But yeah those flagships need to get fixed up pronto. Seemingly little things should not take so long.

OT Customer service seems genuinely interested in fleshing out improvement ideas and bugs. Exchanged several emails with them. Meaningful questions and follow ups. Conversation. And to their credit - they will not give a timetable ... which is at least honest and up front.

Comparing another hot library and company ... Spitfire released AR2 and there were severe issues in some of the mics on the 2nd page. No updates yet. Again a respectful exchange with customer service - though they did have to download the library to check it out.

Seems par for the course. I accept this and find it does not get in the way much of making music.


----------



## Kosmit

Just dived into Sine and JXL Brass, Percussion.
One question, what is the sense of "purge" function.
I apply the purge of all articulations, but all memory/samples get back after playing even one note.
I dont understand that thing, how can i do decent purge?


----------



## Trash Panda

Kosmit said:


> Just dived into Sine and JXL Brass, Percussion.
> One question, what is the sense of "purge" function.
> I apply the purge of all articulations, but all memory/samples get back after playing even one note.
> I dont understand that thing, how can i do decent purge?


Unfortunately, the only real way to have the purge stick is to separate each articulation into its own MIDI channel. When you play a single note in that channel, the whole articulation will load, but the other articulations on other channels will stay purged.

It's...not very well implemented.


----------



## Kosmit

Trash Panda said:


> Unfortunately, the only real way to have the purge stick is to separate each articulation into its own MIDI channel. When you play a single note in that channel, the whole articulation will load, but the other articulations on other channels will stay purged.
> 
> It's...not very well implemented.


That's weird. But still, thanks.


----------



## Orlu

So now that it is over 1 year later, what is the status on Berlin Brass? Did they continue updating and fixing it? Or are people still on the Kontakt version, because SINE is still broken?


----------



## G_Erland

Orlu said:


> So now that it is over 1 year later, what is the status on Berlin Brass? Did they continue updating and fixing it? Or are people still on the Kontakt version, because SINE is still broken?


Sine was, to my knowledge, never broken. Always worked great for me.


----------



## Loerpert

Orlu said:


> So now that it is over 1 year later, what is the status on Berlin Brass? Did they continue updating and fixing it? Or are people still on the Kontakt version, because SINE is still broken?


I use BB alot. I don't have any issues with it.


----------



## Orlu

G_Erland said:


> Sine was, to my knowledge, never broken. Always worked great for me.


It was mainly the legatos that were 'broken' from what I've gathered skimming this thread. But yes, broken is too strong of a word, just being inferior to their Kontakt counterparts.


----------



## G_Erland

Orlu said:


> It was mainly the legatos that were 'broken' from what I've gathered skimming this thread. But yes, broken is too strong of a word, just being inferior to their Kontakt counterparts.


Might very well be that theres a sample with a legato issue, yes. Seems to be some division between people with access to both versions. I much prefer sine to kontakt, but obviously i recognize that only kontakt can give that kind of access. Happy new year!


----------



## Trash Panda

Orlu said:


> So now that it is over 1 year later, what is the status on Berlin Brass? Did they continue updating and fixing it? Or are people still on the Kontakt version, because SINE is still broken?


Berlin Brass in SINE works wonderfully. It is not broken.


----------



## Casiquire

Orlu said:


> So now that it is over 1 year later, what is the status on Berlin Brass? Did they continue updating and fixing it? Or are people still on the Kontakt version, because SINE is still broken?


It got an update shortly after release that pleased some but not all. I find it perfectly usable but unless you need the instrument separation (like I prefer) Tom Holkenborg Brass may be the better offering.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

I tried disabling the top dynamic layer in the Bass Trombone a while back and played the keyboard - got some weird behaviour out of that.


----------



## Getsumen

I only have single instruments from BB Sine and haven't touched it much yet but it seems functional to me


----------



## David Kudell

The legatos in the Sine version were updated and, to my ears, sound great now. I already moved Berlin Brass trumpets in my template from Kontakt over to Sine, because the added FF layer helps a lot. Also, I created a custom mic mix using all 5 microphones, incorporating the A/B and a splash of surround, and it really comes alive in a way I never heard in the Kontakt version (since that would have taken a ton of RAM).


----------



## Michael Antrum

G_Erland said:


> Sine was, to my knowledge, never broken. Always worked great for me.


I heard very different from many, many members of this forum when the Junkie XL Brass library came out as the first library for SINE.... I recall angry demands for refunds and being unable to use the library.

Even today, when I use OT libraries, I reach for the Kontakt versions first......


----------



## David Kudell

Michael Antrum said:


> I heard very different from many, many members of this forum when the Junkie XL Brass library came out as the first library for SINE.... I recall angry demands for refunds and being unable to use the library.
> 
> Even today, when I use OT libraries, I reach for the Kontakt versions first......


JXL came out in 2019. We're going on 2023...there's been a ton of updates since then and it's completely stable...in fact Kontakt 7 crashes while Sine is bulletproof.


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## Babe

Orchestral Tools, we had many good years together. We had a lot of fun together playing with BWW and BSS. I even purchased BS when SINE came out. But alas, I'm afraid our best years are behind us. I may be old and retired, but I still like tweaking parameters like you can in Capsule and not in SINE. Recently, I spent some time again with SINE. Not being able to switch from mono to poly via CC or another method just doesn't cut it. On one note, I may want a port combined with a stac, with just a legato on the next note. Is there a way to do this that I'm missing? No doubt, SINE has some good things, but it doesn't do what I need it to do.


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## Michael Antrum

David Kudell said:


> JXL came out in 2019. We're going on 2023...there's been a ton of updates since then and it's completely stable...in fact Kontakt 7 crashes while Sine is bulletproof.



I still use Kontakt 6. I will wait till next year before upgrading to v7, but I wasn't aware it was crashing a lot. Is it bad ?

Yes Sine is definitely much better today, but then, I never said it wasn't. Someone posted that SINE was never broken, but it was before, and badly so.

Since I get everything I want from OT Libs using Kontakt, I rarely bother to open SINE.


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## Scottyb

I'm gonna have to jump in and say as much as I love OT. And I love them a lot! Sine just is not enjoyable to work in and it crashes occasionally. And for me I mostly miss NKS support. I love my OT libraries - some of the best! But I do not love Sine. Sorry guys.

And of course saying that, I know it affords the ability for the thing I love most about OT and that's being able to buy individual libraries on the fly. 

Can't have it all. :-P


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## Rudianos

Having never used Kontakt OT ... SINE for me is awesome. Fastest multi creation, most modular. User demos seem to favor the Kontakt brass... But when I'm playing it on my own it sounds really good


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## Rudianos

Michael Antrum said:


> I still use Kontakt 6. I will wait till next year before upgrading to v7, but I wasn't aware it was crashing a lot. Is it bad ?
> 
> Yes Sine is definitely much better today, but then, I never said it wasn't. Someone posted that SINE was never broken, but it was before, and badly so.
> 
> Since I get everything I want from OT Libs using Kontakt, I rarely bother to open SINE.


Yeah I'm waiting for the summer upgrade path 50% off thing before Kontakt7. I tried the player it crashed a few times I'll give it 6 months to work itself out.


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## ALittleNightMusic

SINE has made _some_ improvements, but I wouldn't categorize it as a ton in any sense. There's still a number of bugs, strange behaviors, and UI concerns that many people have raised over the years (and that OT has said they would address but haven't). It certainly isn't as unstable as it was in the past (it was easily the most unstable sample player I and many people experienced at one point).

As an example of things of some "strange" behavior (with the latest version of SINE):

- Loaded BSS and Berlin Strings in Cubase 12 on my Mac. They are disabled tracks that I enabled. However, the instrument will reload itself completely once I open the VI window too quickly. If I just leave the VI window unopened, sometimes it loads fully and sometimes it doesn't (which causes pops and clicks when trying to play it). If you try to play a note before it is fully loaded, it can't handle it and has to reload itself. This was meant to be addressed in a previous update, but clearly still occurs. Essentially, you need to enable the SINE tracks and then just walk away for a few minutes.

- For Berlin Strings, I am using expression maps to change articulations on a single track. However, anytime I change the articulation on playback, SINE causes a CPU spike along with a delay in playback while it tries to switch to the new articulation. This doesn't seem to happen with BSS, so unclear why it does with Berlin Strings. This was also meant to be addressed in a previous update, but is not. This essentially renders Berlin Strings unusable for me in Cubase.

So, SINE still has some ways to go to improve. It remains at the back of the pack for me in terms of sample players, from a functionality standpoint but also unfortunately from a stability and robustness standpoint. Given I have a LOT of OT libraries in SINE, I am hopeful they address these issues as a priority, but so far, the progress has been unacceptably slow.


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## Jose7822

I‘m also not a fan of having to let SINE load all of the samples before I can get clean playback. If I try to playback a project before SINE fully loads, it kinda gets stuck loading samples until I stop playback. Then it resumes loading them. I do hope OT works this out, as it is kinda inconvenient. Another inconvenience is not having a Purge function, which would be very useful in terms of not having to create custom keyswitches for every project. Thankfully I have a lot of RAM, so I can get away with loading all the samples for each instrument, but it’s definitely not ideal (especially given the long loading times).

However, I don’t experience any issues switching articulations with any of the OT libraries. I’m on Studio One v6 on Windows, so it’s an Apples to Oranges comparison, but just wanted to chime in with my experience for any readers who are on the fence when it comes to the SINE player. I don’t have issues with crashing or instability when using it, which is 75% (if not more) of the sample players I use in my projects these days. Besides those two things I mentioned, I’m really pleased with the features and performance of the SINE player.


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## Jett Hitt

There are many wishes that I have for Sine, most notably a purge, but it’s the most stable player that I have. It never crashes. It just works. With Spitfire, I find myself constantly repairing libraries, sometimes multiple times. Kontakt does this strange thing where suddenly a sample stops sounding. Everything appears to be normal, just no sound. Every time I have to delete and reload the sample. UVI? I just gave up.


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## G_Erland

Michael Antrum said:


> I heard very different from many, many members of this forum when the Junkie XL Brass library came out as the first library for SINE.... I recall angry demands for refunds and being unable to use the library.
> 
> Even today, when I use OT libraries, I reach for the Kontakt versions first......


Yeah..Im not here to argue. But, i run a modest set up, with completely standard win 10…so theres at least some merit in thinking at least some of the issues are related to winXP or whatever.


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## JTB

Jett Hitt said:


> Kontakt does this strange thing where suddenly a sample stops sounding. Everything appears to be normal, just no sound. Every time I have to delete and reload the sample


Yup! All my close mics in BS were just not sounding. And after replacing all the patches, the legato transitions weren't loaded. AAAGH!!! So I just had to keep reloading until eventually I was able to get back to what I was doing.


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