# Any particular order to learn piano scales in?



## Mornats (Nov 13, 2022)

There's a handful of scales that I can sit down and play without thinking about them but I want to expand my range and learn more. I like to plan things rather than stumble around blindly so I was wondering if there was an order that's recommended for learning scales on the piano? I know there are some more commonly used guitar chords but wasn't sure if the same was true for pianos.


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## jonnybutter (Nov 13, 2022)

Mornats said:


> There's a handful of scales that I can sit down and play without thinking about them but I want to expand my range and learn more. I like to plan things rather than stumble around blindly so I was wondering if there was an order that's recommended for learning scales on the piano? I know there are some more commonly used guitar chords but wasn't sure if the same was true for pianos.


No order, and no reason for one. And don’t stop at the tonal scales and modes, and do them all in any key (if applicable). Here’s a link to Internet Archive’s copy of Slonimsky’s “Thesauras of Scales and Melodic Patterns”. Lots of good ideas for finger work (and composition) in there: https://archive.org/details/nicolasslonimskythesaurusofscalesandmelodicpatterns Cheers!


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## SyMTiK (Nov 13, 2022)

If purely from a technique stand point, learning to play scales both hands together in octaves, going through the circle of fifths in major will help tremendously (starting on C). Then go through it in minor. Hanon is as always the gold standard with learning proper fingerings and technique


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## CGR (Nov 13, 2022)

A common method for teaching piano scales is starting with C major, and working around the circle of fifths. This is a logical method for keyboard, and a good visual way of learning the related chords:


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## The Retroblueman (Nov 13, 2022)

As to whether there is a good order to learn scales in - not really - whatever order suits your purposes (i.e. if you're learning a piece in E Major - supplement it with lots of E major practice - including learning the major/minor triads built on the scale).

I would _maybe _learn the 12 major scales first, because they are the root of _everything _tonal - the minor scales are just scales starting on the sixth note of the major scale and the modes are similar (e.g. A minor and F Lydian have the same notes as C major). But the fastest way to learn a scale (at least for me back in the day) is to play _with_ it (i.e. improvise and noodle out chords and melodies using the scale tones) rather than run up and down the scale mechanically.

Weird thing with piano - you'd think something like B major, with 5 sharps, would be advanced, but actually, because you have your (short) thumb on B and E and your (longer) fingers on the black keys - it's a surprisingly comfortable key for the hand to play scales on.

Other thing I would say is that, if you have a commute (to work or school) in your life - use that to visualise the scales in your head and run up, down, and around, them as if you were playing them on the piano - if possible, try and hear the notes in your head at the same time (you can use something like the piano in garageband on an iphone to get a reference pitch or if you lose your place). That will pay you BIG dividends further down the line...

[edit - just to clarify - I meant a commute on public transport - this is *not *for doing whilst driving - but you can also do it in bed before going to sleep - GREAT cure for insomnia!]


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## Mornats (Nov 13, 2022)

Wow, thanks everyone, some great advice in here. Moving around the circle of fifths sound like a great way to go. I feel that I'll learn more about how to use the circle of fifths by doing it this way too.

I learnt the current set of scales that I know by composing pieces using them so I got to know them quite well (far too well in the case of D minor!) so that's something I'll continue to do.

I currently work from home so no commute but my toddler has a piano book that she loves so I get to see (and hear) it all the time so that will something I can try and use to visualise the scales (if she lets me).


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## Mornats (Nov 14, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> No order, and no reason for one. And don’t stop at the tonal scales and modes, and do them all in any key (if applicable). Here’s a link to Internet Archive’s copy of Slonimsky’s “Thesauras of Scales and Melodic Patterns”. Lots of good ideas for finger work (and composition) in there: https://archive.org/details/nicolasslonimskythesaurusofscalesandmelodicpatterns Cheers!


This is something I'll look into when I have a little more time. I struggle to read music at the moment (which is something else I want to tackle) so it looks a bit daunting for now. I'll work on a couple of examples to see what it's about if I can.

And I forgot to say that in my new working from home setup, if I turn to my right I have my S61 midi keyboard sitting there so I can just use that to visualise scales when someone is blathering nonsense on a Teams call.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 14, 2022)

Two things I've nicked from various online tutorials:

Make a list. Spreadsheets are pretty serviceable for this kind of thing. List the 12 keys and how many practice sessions you've had on them: this helps stop you landing on familiar keys all the time, because Gb Major will be staring at you with a cool zero, wondering when it gets a turn. For bonus points note the BPM you reached on the metronome. Circle of fifths works but it's generally better to do them randomly and fill out the numbers as it's very easy with music to get stuck in patterns and then realise you can't do the thing on demand. Which leads onto the second tip...

Practice them with a reverse in the left hand. That is, you play both hands together for the first octave. Then the right hand keeps going but the left reverses for the second. At the third, the right hand comes back down but the left hand goes up. Then both come down to the start point together. This can be tricky to do at first but it helps hammer home the pattern of the keys in a way that you only learn the scale and not the interval layout. Because you can't look at both of them going in different directions, it improves the ability to play without looking at the hands directly (which will help with sight reading because you need to play by only glancing down at the keyboard occasionally). 

Another trick is to do different rhythms rather than just up and down in 8ths/16ths. Long-long-short, long-short-long etc. Again this helps teach the scale as a sequence of individual movements rather than scale-up/scale-down as one lump.


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## Mornats (Nov 14, 2022)

Oof, my lef hand/right hand coordination isn't great but that tip may help with that, or make me tear my hair out! Well worth trying it though. My aim is to be able to improvise across scales so that would certainly help with that.

Interesting that you recommend doing them randomly. I've been looking at the circle of fifths and if I start on C major and work my way clockwise then I'm simply adding a new sharp each time. I think this could accelerate my learning. The order you add the sharps is even in the circle itself (F, then C etc). I could use the circle to learn, but then practice with random chord orders so that Gb major will get a look in.

Thanks again everyone. This has given me a boost in enthusiasm at a time when I need this.


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## gamma-ut (Nov 14, 2022)

It can be easier learning with the circle at first, though some scales can seem trickier than others, such as F, because the fingering doesn't quite follow the adjacent keys.


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## jonnybutter (Nov 14, 2022)

Mornats said:


> This is something I'll look into when I have a little more time. I struggle to read music at the moment (which is something else I want to tackle) so it looks a bit daunting for now. I'll work on a couple of examples to see what it's about if I can.
> 
> And I forgot to say that in my new working from home setup, if I turn to my right I have my S61 midi keyboard sitting there so I can just use that to visualise scales when someone is blathering nonsense on a Teams call.


I was in something like your position and the only thing that worked for me vis a vis reading, was not being impatient with myself. A tall order, but you can do it. Ignore the voice in your head saying “this shouldn’t be so hard for me” etc. It is a complex skill you are learning - complex but not exactly difficult. Slow WAY down and/or read simple things - in principle w no/few mistakes. You get exponential growth if you slow down and give yourself a chance. You get little or no growth if you haphazardly “chip away at it” for years (i.e. fake it).

It’s quite a mechanical skill, and some people who may not have much musicality, but learned piano only reading music, can read well and never lose the skill. Whereas if you started playing by ear (as I did) you might have to ‘spin it up’ if you don’t read for a while. Reading words works the same way I think - the more you read, the faster and better you read.

Maybe you already know all this stuff, but just in case. I wish I’d had a teacher tell me this when I started.

For technique, ultra slow, ultra relaxed fingers will give you exponential growth, whereas ‘normal’ tense fingers is like boring hard boards. There are a few versions of this idea. A teacher named “Guerreo” called it “finger tapping” back in the 1950s (?), but the general idea is ultra relaxed fingers. This ‘secret’ is much more commonplace these days, maybe because of the internet? If you are playing on a weighted keyboard like a piano, and i hope you are, it will unlock your technique if you have the patience to do it.

If you are playing only an unweighted or semi, clearly, relaxed fingers is an important concept there too, but I don’t know how that all works physiologically. Most of us went from piano to keyboards, but that maybe is not the typical route these days? Would be curious to hear from others about that.

If learning scales in a particular order is helpful to you then do it. I learned them chromatically, but whatever works. However I think it’s a mistake to treat learning how to read or play as an _intellectual_ struggle. The struggle is for it to *not* be intellectual. As Szell said, you want to think with your heart and feel with your brain. You get an intuition about the whole and half step patterns after a while if you just play them a lot. You won’t be looking at the key signature all the time. I barely even look at the key signature unless the piece is all over the place. 

Good luck!


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## Inherently (Nov 14, 2022)

Love this thread, lots of gems here.

re: "I struggle to read music at the moment..."

Not sure why sheet music freezes my blood, like the 'off' switch for voice and hands, but whatever, that's my situation. This site has helped me chip away every day with better traction than the printed materials I've tried - https://www.sightreadingfactory.com/ - might work for you too!


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## SupremeFist (Nov 14, 2022)

CGR said:


> A common method for teaching piano scales is starting with C major, and working around the circle of fifths. This is a logical method for keyboard, and a good visual way of learning the related chords:


If I remember my early lessons correctly, which maybe I don't, the way I was taught was to learn scales sequentially according to how many black keys are in them. So in this diagram going simultaneously clockwise _and_ anticlockwise from C and also incorporating minors — starting with C major, and then doing F and G major _and_ A harmonic minor, and so on.


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## Mornats (Nov 14, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> For technique, ultra slow, ultra relaxed fingers will give you exponential growth, whereas ‘normal’ tense fingers is like boring hard boards. There are a few versions of this idea. A teacher named “Guerreo” called it “finger tapping” back in the 1950s (?), but the general idea is ultra relaxed fingers. This ‘secret’ is much more commonplace these days, maybe because of the internet? If you are playing on a weighted keyboard like a piano, and i hope you are, it will unlock your technique if you have the patience to do it.
> 
> If you are playing only an unweighted or semi, clearly, relaxed fingers is an important concept there too, but I don’t know how that all works physiologically. Most of us went from piano to keyboards, but that maybe is not the typical route these days? Would be curious to hear from others about that.


My main instrument is the bass guitar and my bass tutor taught me exercises and stressed "do them slowly". An example he gave was then he went to see one of his double bass heroes play and he contacted him to ask if he could come and watch him practice. This bass player was well known for playing complex fast pieces (I've no idea who he was, I forgot the name years ago). So my bass tutor watches this guy play very slowly and meticulously and asked him why he didn't practice fast. So he got a lesson in how, in order to play fast, you have to know exactly how to play each note correctly and the only way of doing that is slowly. Then you simply speed it up.

I've got a semi-weighted Komplete Kontrol S61 but we have space for my partner's upright piano which will be joining us soon so I have a choice of what I could practice on.


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## Rudianos (Nov 14, 2022)

Well I would learn c flat first and then maybe a whole tone scale And then on to your Persians


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