# Need your trailer music expertise



## musicalweather (Aug 31, 2017)

Hello all,

I'm currently taking an Evenant course on trailer music writing and am working on a track. I'd be grateful if you could share your trailer music writing expertise with me. *What I have so far are the first two parts of a trailer track -- the intro and the build*. This one has a Celtic character to it. I'm following the guidelines given in the course. The intro should be atmospheric; the build creates tension and --- these are _my_ words -- a sense of anticipation of something big to come. 



The build part of this track has changed quite a bit. At first it was much darker and more orchestral, but I realized I was falling into the trap of making the build too big -- it already had brass and percussion in it. That meant that there was not enough big sound left for the "climax" part of the trailer. So I revised that section to make it more of an Irish band sound, with big drums behind it. 

I welcome any constructive feedback. But I also have specific questions, if you care to answer them. 


Is the intro too long? 

Originally, I had a long riser at the end of the intro, to drive the music into the next section. Then I took it out. Now I'm rethinking it again. Wouldn't this be something a trailer editor could put in if they wanted?

I'm not sure that my build gives the audience a sense that something bigger is coming. As a side note, my choice of making this a kind of Irish jig has made this section a little cheerier than I was aiming for. My hope is that the hard violin playing gives a sense of grit and determination. 

The drums in the build are from Action Strikes. I'm finding it hard to make anything but the major beats heard. I guess I could compress the drums more and bring down the guitar. The violin with only the drums sounds kind of cool, actually, but I'm not sure I can leave out the harmonies that the guitar brings. 

I know that the whoosh transition between the intro and build needs to be shorter and more impactful -- will fix that.

Thanks for any feedback!


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## gsilbers (Aug 31, 2017)

musicalweather said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I'm currently taking an Evenant course on trailer music writing and am working on a track. I'd be grateful if you could share your trailer music writing expertise with me. *What I have so far are the first two parts of a trailer track -- the intro and the build*. This one has a Celtic character to it. I'm following the guidelines given in the course. The intro should be atmospheric; the build creates tension and --- these are _my_ words -- a sense of anticipation of something big to come.
> 
> ...




its very good!

I like the intro. I think its fine. the only thing I might say is add a little more space between that singing part and when it grows. that way to give editors and audience a bigger space and anticipacion.
he action strike sound is a little boomy and far away. you might want to try damage or 8dio or other more close mic with more defined sound to cut through. or a bigger sounding celtic drum. the low end of those drums are def bringing the track down.
at the same time I feel like the guitar and celtic vibe is what should come first and that what would give it the cool feel and emotional lift.
but if you want to try that epic bigger sound, also layer sfx and big perc and hits.


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## musicalweather (Aug 31, 2017)

Thanks very much for the feedback, gsilbers! Very helpful. When you write "the low end of those drums are def bringing the track down," I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that the boominess of the AS drums degrades the quality of the track, or that the AS drums are a drag on the energy of the track? I actually took took off all the reverb and used the close mics, but clearly they are still sounding too far away. Maybe I should push the guitar and violin a little further back...
I have Damage, so I'll see what I can find there for big drums. My aim is not necessarily to make this part of the track epic, but to have the audience anticipate that something epic is coming. 
Thanks again.


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## NoamL (Sep 2, 2017)

Wow Charlotte this sounds original and interesting! Can't wait to hear the rest of the track. I freakin love Celtic music though 

You diagnosed the main issue already, the music is indeed taking too long to get to where it's going.

The vocal intro's ambient production is beautiful, but it needs a cut... Don't worry about the words making sense. I would skip from "darken the sky" to the last line "sailed away from the shore." This will still make harmonic sense. The part in between feels a bit draggy for a trailer track; I get the idea of the cinematic ambient intro and am eager for the music to kick into gear. Of course, if you can re-record your singer, go for it.

At 0:41 you have a great start. The arrangement could be more dense and propulsive thought. You only have four or five instruments: the fiddles, a dulcimer-sounding guitar, and some perc parts. These are a good beginning but maybe some low strings too? Also, you start out with a really good pulse, but the musical idea keeps changing - stick with what you started and build it up.

In terms of references for a denser arrangement, a few spring to mind -



And -



Even this!



(this is also a good reference if you think you want your music to sound even more dark/determined, but I think it's good as-is)

A little more motor rhythms and inner motion and I think the buildup will be great.


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## rJames (Sep 2, 2017)

Hi Charlotte,
I would take the big hits out of the intro. Then put one in at :19 (where you have it) but hold the vocal, maybe you need to add a bar or two to give space to the big hit at the end of that phrase. And take out all of the rest of the hits behind the vocal. And I would let the vocal decay before adding the hit that is now at :38. You can add a bar after that hit too and then after a decay, the whoosh takes you into the body. Let these big moments ring out with gravity. (graveness). 

Your big hits have lots of bottom end. But when you get to the body of your piece :41 there is no more bottom. Trailer music usually likes a big bottom... But I like the airiness of the violin dance above. Without driving you crazy with details, I might play the frame drums really loud. They can't over power but could be more present. Its an EQ thing as well as a strategic placement in the stereo field. And/or have one of those big hits every bar or two. 

You were building to something and that something didn't arrive. By 1:04 the drums should be powerful. But you don't want to lose the feeling that you've brought. 

Funny, I was trying to write a more pop piece last month and listened to Sara Bareilles, Adele, others that I can't remember ... a lot of the songs were just bass drum and voice. Because the voice is so special and the bass drum beat is so current.

I'm thinking this piece could be as contrasting. Drums and celtic violins, driving. Its an artistic thing that you have to come up with. I don't hear a bunch of orchestra in there but it still has to be striking. Blatant and striking. The parts have to stick out like a sore thumb but be put together that they are extremely musical and new. 

Ron


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## thov72 (Sep 4, 2017)

maid of culmore.... who is singing it?


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## musicalweather (Sep 4, 2017)

NoamL and Ron, thank you so much for the extensive feedback! I really appreciate your thoughtful comments. 

NoamL: I'll work on the intro. The next part, starting at 0:41, actually does have a propulsive percussion element; you just can't hear it. In the meantime, I've played around with the balance and with the compression on the drums so that you can really hear the sixteenth note hits. As both you and Ron observed, that section seems to lack some bottom end, so I'll work on that. When you wrote that "the musical idea keeps changing," I thought, "Gosh, it feels like a barely have a music idea there." But now that I've listened to some more examples (thanks for posting those, by the way), I see what you mean. Melodic repetition really helps the audience to latch on to a piece, and it helps the composer make it sound bigger as each repeated idea is thickened. 

Ron, thanks for the detailed feedback. I had been adding in and pushing around the big hits -- all of it not doing very much for the piece. What you suggest makes sense. My plan was to have the really big sounds -- epic drums and orchestra come in the next section. (I'm really trying to follow the structure as outlined in the trailer music writing course). I'm definitely thinking about taking out the strummed guitar. While it provides the only harmonies, it also has a softening effect. When I've listened to _just_ the violin and drums, it does have the kind stark sound that I think you're suggesting. I'll work on it.

Thanks again for all your help!


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## rJames (Sep 4, 2017)

musicalweather said:


> Ron, thanks for the detailed feedback. I had been adding in and pushing around the big hits -- all of it not doing very much for the piece. What you suggest makes sense. My plan was to have the really big sounds -- epic drums and orchestra come in the next section. (I'm really trying to follow the structure as outlined in the trailer music writing course). I'm definitely thinking about taking out the strummed guitar. While it provides the only harmonies, it also has a softening effect. When I've listened to _just_ the violin and drums, it does have the kind stark sound that I think you're suggesting. I'll work on it.
> 
> Thanks again for all your help!


IMHO, the big hits are getting in the way of the purity of the vocal. As has been mentioned, an editor can add a hit but he cannot take one away (well he can if he has STEMS) but I'd leave them out of the intro unless they were a very interesting part of the story.
You should try an experiment in your own studio... not to send to anyone else. Put a Limiter on your final output and push the threshold up to where the drums or the violins are peaking. When a piece is mastered, it will have those kind of characteristics (but done with a nuance). You might work on it a bit with the limiter on to hear the dramatic starkness of drums and violins only.
A final thought as I'm listening again and responding today. You might want to add a final scale run up to a final note on the violins to the finale. Put a big fat button on it so it ends!!

Oh, and don't be afraid to add another reverb on the vocals that creates an atmosphere. You have to be careful not to let the atmosphere reverb interfere with the direct and 1st reverb. It may be perfect right where it is, but I think you could have an even thicker/longer atmosphere around the vocals.... almost replacing, or as a part of the background drone.

That background boing at :33 is a little out of place. Yes, guitar also unnecessary. In the bar or two where you took out violins, just play the rhythm on them without moving; softly till they come back in with a vengeance.

Ron


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## NoamL (Sep 4, 2017)

musicalweather said:


> NoamL and Ron, thank you so much for the extensive feedback! I really appreciate your thoughtful comments.



Awesome, definitely post the piece when you are done, would love to hear it!


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## dannymc (Sep 5, 2017)

i really enjoyed act 1. i felt act 2 could of had a bit more anticipation, urgency etc. really want to hear the act 3 before knowing if it works for trailer.

Danny


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## musicalweather (Sep 9, 2017)

So here's a revision of *just the build*. I think I've brought out the percussion a lot more. Mixing this seems to have taken me down the rabbit hole of adding compression and gainers to nearly every track. It's difficult to get each part heard, especially when there's so much low end. But I did some EQing, and that seemed to bring a little clarity. I welcome your thoughts. Thanks!


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## NoamL (Sep 9, 2017)

Hell yeah! It's got a *lot* more cinematic low end now Charlotte! The mix is very, very strong. It is also cohesive and doesn't confuse me as a listener. And above all, you are getting the right sense of urgency into your track and the sense that you're about to kick the door down with the most trailer-y Irish jig ever. 

I would change the following -

1. Start from 0:07.5, you don't need the part before and it gets us to 0:13 sooner which is when things start getting cool.

2. The frame drum feels a little too compressed; keep it loud but dynamic! Other perc is great. I like the snare-like drum you bring in on top of the other end-of-measure perc rolls at 0:24, bring that up a little!

3. OK, you have two structure problems that luckily can be solved with one stone. First, it feels weird when the violin just drops out at 0:19 and comes back at 0:25. Second, this build is still feeling a little too sparse. The presence of a larger orchestra lying in wait, just itching for their cue to play the big melody, needs to be implied. You've partially accomplished this by bringing in the low strings but it's not enough (in my opinion ofcourse). I would do a big tutti string staccato (maybe add low brass too!), just playing the tonic, at the following downbeats 0:19, 0:22, 0:25, 0:28, etc. This way when the violin leaves it is "handing over" the listener's attention to these orchestra hits, and then when the violin comes back it's like you're building a new layer on top. It also creates a musical back and forth between the soloist and orchestra. This will help drive the track forward even more urgently than what you have now. From 0:31, you can have the high strings start to be more active, doubling the solo violin and building in a crescendo to the end.

The riser and end of the build is perfect.

Can't wait to hear whatever big tune you have in store


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## gsilbers (Sep 9, 2017)

musicalweather said:


> Thanks very much for the feedback, gsilbers! Very helpful. When you write "the low end of those drums are def bringing the track down," I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean that the boominess of the AS drums degrades the quality of the track, or that the AS drums are a drag on the energy of the track? I actually took took off all the reverb and used the close mics, but clearly they are still sounding too far away. Maybe I should push the guitar and violin a little further back...
> I have Damage, so I'll see what I can find there for big drums. My aim is not necessarily to make this part of the track epic, but to have the audience anticipate that something epic is coming.
> Thanks again.



the new update is very good.
the track is excellent!

I would of liked it with more perc cutting more in the middle. a smaller (mid like bodran?) but more present drum more akin to that style of music. but it still works and it sound good.

I echo the comments about a 3rd part. the full blown , very active part... but maybe for your next track. this one is already good.


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## will_m (Sep 9, 2017)

Do you have a trailer in mind that this could work for?

I've found it really helpful when writing trailers to have a current trailer video up and see if what I'm writing fits with the structure and tone.


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## mac (Sep 9, 2017)

Love those vocals, who is it?


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## musicalweather (Sep 10, 2017)

NoamL, thank you for your excellent analysis and suggestions. I think they're all right on the money. It's good to have fresh ears listening to this; when you've listened to a track so many times, certain strange things (like the violin dropping out) seem to be perfectly logical. Thanks for all your help.

Gsilbers, thank you, too, for your feedback. I definitely see what you're saying, and I am looking for some drum sounds that would be more in keeping with the bodhran. 

Mac and Thov72: the vocals are from Samplephonics. 

Will_m: I don't have a specific trailer in mind, but that's a good idea. I should probably play this over an existing trailer just to see how the structure works. I wish there were trailers without music available (just for practice). That would be awesome.


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## R. Soul (Sep 10, 2017)

I haven't read the replies so sorry if I'm repeating what others have said.

I miss a bit of oomph in the hits in the intro.

I miss a pad/drone/ strings in the build up, to erm... pad things a bit. It sounds a bit too minimal now.

These are minor things though - really great track. Oh, and the revised build is a definite improvement. I'm still missing some mid-low end strings/pad though


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## musicalweather (Sep 10, 2017)

Hi all,
I've written an alternative build to the one I posted a couple of days ago. I was thinking about Ron's idea of making the build "blatant and striking." So I'm trying out just violin and percussion. I'm going for a raw, more human sound here -- a motley crew of Irish rebels.  A few people have said my tracks have been missing some bottom end, so I thought I would bring that in via male voices. I'm using them as a percussive element, but I'm not sure if that works. It may be comical. In which case, you're welcome.  

I really appreciate all the feedback you guys have given me! It's been very helpful. Would love to hear your thoughts about this version. Thanks!


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## rJames (Sep 17, 2017)

musicalweather said:


> Hi all,
> I've written an alternative build to the one I posted a couple of days ago. I was thinking about Ron's idea of making the build "blatant and striking." So I'm trying out just violin and percussion. I'm going for a raw, more human sound here -- a motley crew of Irish rebels.  A few people have said my tracks have been missing some bottom end, so I thought I would bring that in via male voices. I'm using them as a percussive element, but I'm not sure if that works. It may be comical. In which case, you're welcome.
> 
> I really appreciate all the feedback you guys have given me! It's been very helpful. Would love to hear your thoughts about this version. Thanks!



Hi Charlotte, Sorry I haven't commented since you posted this. I saw it while on my phone then forgot to get back to my comp where I could listen a few days ago.
I think its good. It is more "blatant and striking," whatever that means (it means something like, "get in there and give it your best..."). Well, it actually does mean something general, and you pulled it off somewhat. I say somewhat because "striking" is one of those subjective verbs.
Regarding the male voices. I can hardly hear them. What I would say is for "blatant and striking," they need to be in your face. BUT do they really fit this piece? Beyond the classroom that you are in, if you want a piece to license (and that is a really big order) it all has to FIT and it has to FIT something that you haven't seen yet.
As someone has said, you might work with a trailer and turn off the sound to see if this piece works... or even as you work. The reason that works is that there will be another movie like that one (whatever it is), if you choose wisely.
So, what kind of a movie needs an irish jig in solo form with solo frame drum AND a male choir accenting?
I hear adventure in the irish jig. And in the frame drum. Not a big battle but the beginning of an adventure.
What are the male choir accents adding? Well, I'm not a great music supervisor but I'll give my intuitive take. The low male choir accents add a flavor of slavery, or mass humanity; a group pain or load, or work.
How does the beginning of an adventure need this male humanity addition? It might. The question is what story line needs those things together? there might be one, I'm missing. 
Now if the male voices were jubilant, maybe they would symbolize a group of pirates looking forward to their plunder.
I'm being very general. And I'm not saying I'm good at this either. Just that this is another way to look at the track you are building. Do all of the elements add up to a music supervisor saying, "this cue is the essence of this movie!"
And, oh, by the way, it hits all the points that we need it to hit for the cadence of the edit we have chosen.
Like I say, I can barely hear the voices, so maybe they are fine. But "blatant," is stuff sticking out so it makes a statement... especially one that an editor will hear and see his edit coming together.
I like this build, like the added drums under the frame drums too.


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 18, 2017)

musicalweather said:


> Hi all,
> I've written an alternative build to the one I posted a couple of days ago. I was thinking about Ron's idea of making the build "blatant and striking." So I'm trying out just violin and percussion. I'm going for a raw, more human sound here -- a motley crew of Irish rebels.  A few people have said my tracks have been missing some bottom end, so I thought I would bring that in via male voices. I'm using them as a percussive element, but I'm not sure if that works. It may be comical. In which case, you're welcome.
> 
> I really appreciate all the feedback you guys have given me! It's been very helpful. Would love to hear your thoughts about this version. Thanks!



I like this version best! My mix suggestion is to add some reverb to the violin to set it back in the mix a bit, it will sound sweeter and leave more room to hear the vocal- which you should also add some reverb to, to help it stand out. Everything else sits well in the mix.

By "add more low end" I believe they are talking about bass tones. Perhaps try low brass to just the third section to give it a beefier sound, even a single tuba or cimbasso, or small group, can add gravitas for the end. Congrats on the nice track.


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## rJames (Sep 18, 2017)

I wanted to add something to my previous post.

I spend almost as much time (hyperbole) listening for elements that will exclude my music from an edit as I do writing it.

Always listen through your work, as if you are the editor, listening for those moments where the editor might go, "ah crap, it was working so well."


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## musicalweather (Sep 24, 2017)

Hi all,

I'm sorry I'm responding so late to these latest comments. I've been traveling for a few days and was preoccupied with some other matters when I got back. At the end of last week, I made a _big_ push to write the climax part (which I haven't posted here) to add to the intro and build so that I could present it all to a group of creatives that I meet with once a month. It was an exhausting effort to write that big section - with choir, orchestra, and trailer fx - and… it turned out kinda crappy. So I'm going to scrap that and write something new, but it wasn't for naught. I learned a few things. All this is to say, I think I needed a little time away from this piece to recharge my creative batteries and get some perspective on it.

Now to your comments.

Thank you, Ron and Kurtvanzo for coming back to this with your very thoughtful commentary. I really appreciate your help. 

Ron, your analysis of the male voices was very insightful. I'm not sure I completely agree that they suggest slavery or group pain, but I can see how someone might interpret them that way. I wasn't think of them as being in the forefront musically -- just more of a supportive element. I guess it could be irritating to the audience if it senses that the voices are signaling something important but it can't actually hear them. I do agree that, overall, the track evokes a sense of adventure rather than the dark feeling many trailers have. Your point that I should think about how the elements add up to support a story line is a great insight and one that I will think about. 

Kurtvanzo, thanks for your feedback. Glad to hear the mix is working reasonably well. I will try putting more reverb on the violin. I'm a little worried it won't be prominent enough for the audience to hear. It should really be at the forefront of the mix. But perhaps it's too dry right now. I may very well substitute the voices with low brass -- still deciding what to do.


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