# Save time, let us do the mock-ups for you.



## Cinesamples (Aug 1, 2013)

Also, if you've ever been interested in having your music recorded in Los Angeles, we can help with questions you may have etc...

http://www.hollywoodscoring.com


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## Kralc (Aug 1, 2013)

Man, that last cue got transformed! Sounds lovely.


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## MarkS_Comp (Aug 1, 2013)

Most excellent. The first mock-up made me go WOW. What strings were used? CineStrings? If so, I command you to release it tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Steve Martin (Aug 1, 2013)

Hi Mike,

I am listening to the video - just listened to the first mockup and I have to say - Wow!

Everything sounded amazingly done.

I ask which string library you are using?

Great sound Mike. Thanks for posting this video.

Steve :D


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## VSTBuzz (Aug 2, 2013)

Wow they sound incredible....

Do you have a specific price range of "starting at"?


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## Lex (Aug 2, 2013)

Amazing work guys.

alex


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## jamwerks (Aug 2, 2013)

Nice work dudes !


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## Hal (Aug 2, 2013)

Very interesting ..are you gonna discuss prices :D


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## Christof (Aug 2, 2013)

Yes, tell us about the string library!


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## Walid F. (Aug 2, 2013)

pimp my mock-up!!


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## Sid Francis (Aug 2, 2013)

I am also very pleased with your work and the results. I LOVE the third piece and would buy it on CD. And you really got the ability to feel the essence of of a tune and give it what makes it perfect. Congrats.

I got the ability for strong melodies, you got the mock-up talent. Oh what a wonderful pair we would make... 8) :lol:


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## toomanynotes (Aug 3, 2013)

interesting notion,
you guys should definitely get composer songwriting credits, that's the way i hear it.


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## Martin K (Aug 3, 2013)

Really nice work!
Thanks for sharing the video 

best,
Martin


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 3, 2013)

Hal @ Fri 02 Aug said:


> Very interesting ..are you gonna discuss prices :D



From complete score: "Starting at $300 per minute of music depending on musical complexity."
From sketch/midi : "Starting at $465 per minute"

Source: http://hollywoodscoring.com/services/mock-up/


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## dgburns (Aug 3, 2013)

Just out of curiosity,what kind of agreement do you seek in terms of arrange credits?

i have always gone with the notion that arrange credits account for roughly 12 percent of the writer share of the work regarding PRO royalties.Is this what you are also asking for,or are you dismissing and waiving any writer share of the works you arrange?


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## MarkS_Comp (Aug 3, 2013)

I dont see how orchestrators and arrangers get a writer's credit, and take a writers share percentage. If they actually write, then yes, but if they dont then no. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

And I still want to know what those strings are....


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## dgburns (Aug 3, 2013)

I guess my experience has been that whenever I have worked with an arranger,it has always been to include a writer's share,of 12 percent as a starting point of talks.

I'd be curious to know if that is not the case in L.A.,where there might be a work for hire thing going on.In any case,thought this might come up if the mock ups make it to final.I'm just asking the question.


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## Embertone (Aug 3, 2013)

Beautiful work guys! Those demos make this service look like a no brainer to me, especially the difference your work made in Ex. 3.

=o


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## Casiquire (Aug 4, 2013)

MarkS_Comp @ Sat 03 Aug said:


> I dont see how orchestrators and arrangers get a writer's credit, and take a writers share percentage. If they actually write, then yes, but if they dont then no. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.



Have you ever studied arranging or orchestration? If so, there would be no question about whether that work or skill set needs to be compensated.

For example, Danny Elfman didn't know much about orchestration (at least back in the day, I don't know where his skill set is today--though judging by the fact that he still uses arrangers and he was not involved in the music for Sweeney Todd the indication seems to be that he still does not). Yet everybody hears a score and instantly recognizes "his sound". However, the man who arranged most of Danny Elfman's music, Steve Bartek, has done other arranging work...like for example some songs for Avenged Sevenfold. Suddenly their music sounds like "Danny Elfman's sound". Kind of makes you wonder whose sound it really is.

The truth is the arranger is a hundred times more responsible for the sound of a piece of music than the writer. You can take a Nicki Minaj song and arrange it to sound like Mozart. They absolutely deserve credit.


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## Ed (Aug 4, 2013)

Looks like someone needs to post that Danny Elfman rant again when some film music critic suggested he didn't really do any work


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## MarkS_Comp (Aug 4, 2013)

Casiquire @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> Have you ever studied arranging or orchestration?



To a small degree, yes.




Casiquire @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> If so, there would be no question about whether that work or skill set needs to be compensated.



I never said it shouldn't be compensated. Where did I say that? Of course you as an orchestrator and/or arragrer get paid for your work - and get credit, but typically you don't get a percentage of the royalties/writer's share. I am sure it happens - maybe a composer gives his long-time and loyal orchestrator a peice for a particular project as a "thank you" for all the years of hard work. But that is a rarity. Do you really think that orchestrators get a precentage of the writers? Have a look at the liner notes for "King Kong". There are 10 - that's TEN - orchestrators. You think JNH gave each of them a precentage of the writers? Look at "The Dark Night". There is (if i remember correctly) a team of almost 15 people listed. Orchestrators for HZ, orchestrators for JNH, programmers, sound design, etc. You really think each of them a precentage of the writers? I am not saying that I know either which way for a fact, but that doesn't mean I cant speak from common sense.


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## jeffc (Aug 4, 2013)

The stuff sounds great, but just to play devil's advocate... who would the intended audience or customer for this be? Just curious. It seems to me that mock-ups are just part of the gig, and really for most of us, a part of how we develop our 'sound'. If I were to hand off the 'mockup' job to somebody else, not sure what my job as 'composer' would be. Furthermore, to get a whole score mocked up, say 20 minutes or so, would probably eclipse the budget of most guys working at the lower end of things. And the guys that could afford that, would probably, do it themselves or have one of their minions do it. If it were me, again using 20 minutes of orch as an example, I'd just orchestrate the stuff and record an orchestra for real for a similar cost.

Again, not knocking it, it sounds absolutely great, just curious who the intended 'client' would be, because again, what it offers seems like part of 'composing' to me, at least in my world. Interesting times...

Also, as an aside, having used orchestrators many times, it is not customary to give 'writers' credit. They have an amazing skill and bring things to life for sure, but that's the job and they make back-end from Special Payments, that we as composers don't get. So it all works out.

J


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## mikebarry (Aug 4, 2013)

we actually get asked very often to do this so we just decided to make it public.


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## tonywilson (Aug 4, 2013)

This is sound information to save information thank you.


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## Rob Elliott (Aug 5, 2013)

Mike(s) - great work. I too would also love to know how to get my grubby hands on the strings. Sure hoping it will be offered to the public. Should be an enormous hit for you guys.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 5, 2013)

jeffc @ Sun Aug 04 said:


> Also, as an aside, having used orchestrators many times, it is not customary to give 'writers' credit. They have an amazing skill and bring things to life for sure, but that's the job and they make back-end from Special Payments, that we as composers don't get. So it all works out.
> 
> J



But they do generally get listed as Orchestrators in the end credits.


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## jeffc (Aug 5, 2013)

re: Jay. Of course orchestrators are credited (and copyists and conductors and every one else involved in music prep). I kind of assumed that was implied.....


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 5, 2013)

jeffc @ Mon Aug 05 said:


> re: Jay. Of course orchestrators are credited (and copyists and conductors and every one else involved in music prep). I kind of assumed that was implied.....



Not everyone here composes for film so I thoughtI would point it out.


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## Casiquire (Aug 5, 2013)

Ed @ Sun 04 Aug said:


> Looks like someone needs to post that Danny Elfman rant again when some film music critic suggested he didn't really do any work



I certainly didn't suggest that Danny Elfman doesn't do any work! But I don't take back a single word I said about the sound of a piece being more tied to the arranger than to the writer.

Anyway MarkS_Comp, I must have misunderstood your original question because I first read it to mean that you don't think orchestraters deserve any credit or compensation. Apologies for my interpretation of your words!


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## quantum7 (Aug 6, 2013)

o-[][]-o Congratulations Cinesamples on your new endeavor. I could definitely see using your service in the future. Anytime I can avoid going to LA and driving on those freeways that I sooo miss driving on.....NOT....then I'm a happy camper.


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## dpasdernick (Aug 6, 2013)

I recently watched a video on Trevor Horn talking about how a songwriter would bring him a verse and a chorus and he would figure out the intro, extro, middle 8 etc. He seemed peeved that the songwriter got the credit even though he really made the song complete.

Back on topic. I can't ever see using a service like this. Half the fun for me is doing the work. I understand the need for an orchestrator to get the mock-up ready for the "real" musicians as all those tiny dots on the page are confusing... but this is the fun part? No?

So would a guy who just writes at the piano hand over the chords and melodies and these guys would mock it up with orchestral sounds?


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## Casiquire (Aug 6, 2013)

I can see this being really useful in a situation where there will be a live orchestra but the director wants some amazing sounding demos and mock-ups and the composer just doesn't have time to do everything. Otherwise I agree, it's fun doing a lot of the work yourself, but not everybody always has the time.


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## Andrew Aversa (Aug 6, 2013)

It's not always a matter of work, or time, or whatever. Sometimes it's about sheer skill and resources. I'm not too shabby at mockups but I'm not a great keyboardist, and I admittedly am a little behind on orchestral libraries. I could put 20 hours into a mockup, and it might not sound as good as what the Hollywood Scoring folks could do in 5 hours, simply because THAT'S what their specialty is (on the other hand, give me an electronic cue...)

I also know plenty of composers who work very hard at orchestration + arranging, and are quite good at it, but their MIDI mockup skills are way behind. They're still doing all the writing + arranging, they just aren't any good at making their parts come alive with samples. This service seems excellent for those purposes.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 6, 2013)

I just wanted to say that out of the 3 examples in the video, the one that really stood out to me was example #2. That's the one out of the 3 that I would want to listen to again, so definite kudos on the work on it.


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## toomanynotes (Aug 7, 2013)

I could have done with a similar service like this for my thesis, dissertation to meet deadlines at University.
Hand em a couple of sentences and pay to fill the rest of the pages in. Hell because i just didn't have the time to do it.

Suppose all you need is money nowadays and some contacts to be something your not.

Just to add, i would rather be working with these guys at cinesamples cos it seems thats where the real work is being put in. haha the irony.


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## Arbee (Aug 7, 2013)

I think it's perfectly fine for Cinesamples to make everyone here aware of this service. For some it may be just what they need, for others not. But, I'm not sure the emerging tone of "anyone who uses this service must a cheat, lazy or have too much money for their own good" is really warranted.....just sayin' :| 

.


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## toomanynotes (Aug 7, 2013)

let's take it down back to basics, if i was exposed to this when i first started out with an interest in music and pursing that interest whether it be performing, composing, teaching...i would wonder to myself...huh?? what? i dare say i would've looked down at all this... It so blatantly obvious now...it's got nothing to do with art but business.
This would not have been a factor in my appreciation of the study or involvement in music.

Like i said, the boys/girls at Cinesamples are the people having the most fun here. 

Each to their own. But look deep down and you may find there is something not quite right artistically about it. For the business model this is great!!!!

I would be more comfortable is the cinesample guys were added as additional composer credits. Thats all.


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## Per Lichtman (Aug 7, 2013)

In relationship to workflow and relying on others.

- The great composers of the pre-20th century that are pretty universally respected had no ability to create a "mock-up" on their own (unless you count a single instrument performance, such as a piano reduction).

-- The responsibility for realizing the composer's music lay with the conductor (who often was not the same as the composer) and the performers.

- In musical theater the composer and the arranger are considered separate positions. A composer is not considered to be "not a composer" because they use an arranger.

I don't mean to sound pedantic but I think Arbee is right - no one should be called lazy for engaging more heavily in one creative process than another.

If you compose, arrange, orchestrate, engrave the score, perform all the parts by yourself, engineer your own recording session, engineer your own mixing session and engineer your own mastering session... well that's great. But I think most people would say that you can accomplish a lot in one discipline without being expected to be able to wear every single hat on every project.


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## Daryl (Aug 7, 2013)

I don't see what all the fuss is regarding credits. This is the sort of thing that orchestrators and arrangers do all the time. I see no problem with it.

Would I use this arrangement service? Certainly not. I don't need it. What I might need at some point though is to have someone mock-up one of my scores, and that's much more difficult to do than what's being offered here anyway. :wink: 

D


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## Arbee (Aug 7, 2013)

Yes of course it's a business but also perhaps very useful on that magic day when you've become so successful the phone rings more than you can cope with. IMO, the most successful folk know how to delegate and focus their time on their own personal strengths.

.


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## Daryl (Aug 7, 2013)

One thing that I forgot to say was some of this really depends on how you like to write. It has already been mentioned on this thread that the mock-up is the fun part, but for me it is the most boring bit. I am training my assistant to do good mock-ups at the moment, so that eventually the day will come when I don't have to do them at all. Can't wait. :wink: 

D


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## germancomponist (Aug 7, 2013)

Sascha Knorr @ Wed Aug 07 said:


> And by the way... when I listen to the mock-ups on your website Daryl, I'm sure, that Mike and his team could improve them drastically, especially by using up-to-date production tools.



Yeah, let them record the Beatles Songs new!

Without joking, it is a cool service what cinesamples do, but it is not new. Others do this for years. 

And your comment about Daryl's mock-ups is painful! I bet he writes and produces mock-ups light years better than you do!


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