# RME dead. Interface for Mac Pro 2010 El Cap?



## motomuso (Dec 28, 2017)

I just got a call from Advanced Audio Electronics here in Los Angeles. My RME Fireface 800 is badly corroded and would cost more to repair than to replace. I don't know what was eating that interface as I have had other items in the same rack for years with no corrosion problems.

Anyway, I am in a jam since I'm not ready to upgrade to a new Mac but now must buy an interface for a computer whose days are numbered. It's a computer which has been up to any job I've asked it to do.

Would that there was a future-proof interface, say with FW800 and USB3 and T'Bolt 2,3, or whatever. Any suggestions? I can get by with 2 - 4 inputs.


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## trumpoz (Dec 28, 2017)

Firewire seems to be going the way of the Dodo. 

Depending on budget an RME Fireface UFX+ would be futureproof being USB 3.0.

Nothing wrong with a Babyface - ive got one for my school laptop and it is great. Only has 2 physical inputs but is expandable via ADAT.


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## bjderganc (Dec 28, 2017)

Weird! You might want to ask RME if that's a common issue? I went from the UC (FF 400 with USB) to the BFP and love it. I looked at the Antelope Zen Tour and UAD lineup, but it came down to simplicity and reliability. 

FWIW The connection type adds bandwidth, but not speed. You'll likely never fill the bandwidth so USB 2/3 is fine.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 28, 2017)

I'm using the Fireface UC and it's great. I don't need any of the DSP from the UCX. I've heard that the headphone amp on the Babyface isn't as good as on their other interfaces. 

USB 2 is fine and there's no need to go with 3. In some cases 2 performs better for audio. At the rate which TB keeps changing, I'd stay away from it or get one that also has USB. The newer interfaces with ethernet might also be a good option for future-proofing.


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## motomuso (Dec 28, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> ...
> 
> USB 2 is fine and there's no need to go with 3. In some cases 2 performs better for audio. At the rate which TB keeps changing, I'd stay away from it or get one that also has USB. The newer interfaces with ethernet might also be a good option for future-proofing.



I'm concerned that previous sessions using FW800 won't be fast enough with USB 2.0, which is what my Mid 2010 has for USB. I have considered getting a USB 3 card such as a Sonnet to allow this computer to use the faster USB. 

Ethernet seems a bit complicated; unless I have it wrong and one simply plugs the ethernet interface into the ethernet port on the interface?


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 28, 2017)

motomuso said:


> I'm concerned that previous sessions using FW800 won't be fast enough with USB 2.0, which is what my Mid 2010 has for USB. I have considered getting a USB 3 card such as a Sonnet to allow this computer to use the faster USB.
> 
> Ethernet seems a bit complicated; unless I have it wrong and one simply plugs the ethernet interface into the ethernet port on the interface?



Like I said, USB 2 often performs better than 3 for audio. You'll most likely get the same performance with any RME interface. The exception is with some PCIe interfaces as they can perform better but are awful if they have any sort of analog audio.


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## kgdrum (Dec 28, 2017)

I went from a Ff800 to a UCX,its a nice I/O.Like others mentioned USB2 works well with RME products,according to SynthAx it's actually preferable over FireWire or USB 3.
IMO the UCX sounds better than the Ff800 and there's no internal power supply to worry about(this caused most of the FF800 problems). 
Good luck


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## motomuso (Dec 28, 2017)

kgdrum said:


> I went from a Ff800 to a UCX,its a nice I/O.Like others mentioned USB2 works well with RME products,according to SynthAx it's actually preferable over FireWire or USB 3.
> IMO the UCX sounds better than the Ff800 and there's no internal power supply to worry about(this caused most of the FF800 problems).
> Good luck



Interesting. The power supply was one of the things the tech said needed replacing which was a surprise to me since I was only having issues with the FW connector and headphone connectors falling into the case. Well, that and some cruddy audio connectors.


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## motomuso (Dec 28, 2017)

bjderganc said:


> Weird! You might want to ask RME if that's a common issue? I went from the UC (FF 400 with USB) to the BFP and love it. I looked at the Antelope Zen Tour and UAD lineup, but it came down to simplicity and reliability.
> 
> FWIW The connection type adds bandwidth, but not speed. You'll likely never fill the bandwidth so USB 2/3 is fine.



Thanks to you bjderganc and the others for your helpful replies. I have learned a lot about USB today. I did email RME but they are on holiday until January 7. Just when I'm about to take advantage of the big Spitfire wish list smorgasbord I find I'm now looking instead at decidedly un-sexy interfaces!


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## enCiphered (Dec 28, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I don't need any of the DSP from the UCX.



I have a question regarding this topic. I´m not quite sure if I understand correctly but does DSP in this case mean that I can let the soundcard process all of my plugins to free up my cpu load? Or does the RME interface process ONLY its own, internal plugins that come with the hardware?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 28, 2017)

trumpoz said:


> Firewire seems to be going the way of the Dodo.



It isn't on new Macs, but FireWire going away doesn't matter if you have a Metric Halo interface with updated drivers for it. My 2882 has been going strong for over 15 years. You just need a $29 Thunderbolt->FireWire adapter to use it on a Mac that doesn't have FW.

By the way, the dodo was a man-made extinction. 

motomuso:



> Anyway, I am in a jam since I'm not ready to upgrade to a new Mac but now must buy an interface for a computer whose days are numbered. It's a computer which has been up to any job I've asked it to do.
> 
> Would that there was a future-proof interface, say with FW800 and USB3 and T'Bolt 2,3, or whatever. Any suggestions? I can get by with 2 - 4 inputs.



First, don't feel bullied into your computer's days being numbered! The 5,1 is one of the best Macs ever made.

But it's not just the interface itself that's future-proof, it's whether the company writes drivers for it. That's why I'm a Metric Halo fan. But their interfaces aren't budget ones. In that range I like iConnectivity's interfaces, even though I'm not on retainer with the company anymore (I used to do writing for them - manuals, product boxes, etc.).

iConnectivity's interfaces are USB Class-Compliant, meaning they use the USB driver built into the OS for audio.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 29, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> By the way, the dodo was a man-made extinction.


As will be the FW extinction once the latest version of TB no longer supports it 



enCiphered said:


> I have a question regarding this topic. I´m not quite sure if I understand correctly but does DSP in this case mean that I can let the soundcard process all of my plugins to free up my cpu load? Or does the RME interface process ONLY its own, internal plugins that come with the hardware?


The plugins built into the Totalmix which IMO are useless unless you're doing some sort of live work with it.


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## enCiphered (Dec 29, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> The plugins built into the Totalmix which IMO are useless unless you're doing some sort of live work with it.



Ok, this is what I thought as well. DSP isn´t an advantage then for my setup, thanks Gerhard.


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## kgdrum (Dec 29, 2017)

It's probably not a significant difference but I went with the UCX instead of the UC because the converters are supposedly better. I don't use the effects but overall the UCX imo is a better I/O than the FF.
As far as drivers go either Metric Halo or RME are both very good and they are both great companies.


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## bjderganc (Dec 29, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> I've heard that the headphone amp on the Babyface isn't as good as on their other interfaces.



Are you referring to the output power on the original Babyface? If so, that issue was fixed on the Babyface Pro.

@motomuso The main question is probably I/O. The RME lineup should have identical latency specs. With their tech, they can push an insane number of channels through USB 2. A point was made about USB 2 being better than 3 in some cases. That's because 2 doesn't require any drivers to run on PC. Probably nothing worth losing sleep over though.

Also, FWIW, I asked RME about the converters and pres in the BFP versus their other interfaces. They hinted that the BFP was on par with the UCX and UFX, and better than the UC/400/800/etc. due to much newer tech.


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## motomuso (Dec 29, 2017)

bjderganc said:


> Are you referring to the output power on the original Babyface? If so, that issue was fixed on the Babyface Pro.
> 
> @motomuso
> ...
> ...



I was leaning heavily toward the UCX. But if I'm honest about what I really need in an interface I'd say that I never record more than 2 live ins at a time, usually acoustic guitar, vocals, or percussion inst's. I am 99% MIDI anyway; the usual composer with the virtual inst's - lots of orchestral stuff. So the Babyface could make sense. 

Unless I'm missing something, dynamics and EQ are handled in Logic anyway so I don't see the need for it in the interface. $750 vs $1600 - That's a big difference.


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## bjderganc (Dec 29, 2017)

heh! I just deleted that last part 

I would say then that the UCX (36 I/Os) is overkill. You could expand the BFP via the optical input with an outboard preamp. It may be possible to split 4 channels from an outboard preamp to the BFP XLR pres and the line in channels (3/4). 

Though the pres on the BFP are XLR only, as opposed to the combo XLR/TRS jacks. I wonder if there are any pitfalls with that approach...


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## motomuso (Dec 29, 2017)

I had been running 8 stereo outs from the RME Fireface 800 out to a Dangerous 2Bus to sum out of the box. Channels 1-8 are analog out and I have an Alesis AI3 which takes channels 9-16 to the 2 bus as analog. Then I would re-record it all back into Logic for a stereo master.

I have pretty much abandoned "out of the box" summing though. It has been a bit noisy - maybe due to the corrosion issues with the Fireface, maybe due to the extra conversions. Anyway, I do have the AI3 as an option for expansion.


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## motomuso (Dec 29, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> ...
> 
> motomuso:
> 
> ...


This is very good to hear. I need to look into getting another and learning the ins and outs of VE Pro, or if it's viable.


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## steveo42 (Dec 29, 2017)

If the tech is mentioning power supply problems and corrosion, I would guess leaky electrolytic capacitors which can and will cause a mess to the circuit board and components physically near them. I do not know if this is a problem with RME, so this is just EE guess here. As for replacing the unit, latency is going to be your number one factor. I am assuming you are using VSTi here and not so much real instrument recording. RME is pretty much king of the hill with reliable round trip latency, especially under load. Other contenders are the MOTU AVB units, the new stuff not the older units. Don't get concerned with USB2 vs USB3, because USB2 has plenty of bandwidth. I wouldn't buy another FW device though because that is a dead end IMHO. Again, look for a device with solid RTL (round trip latency) and especially under load. There is a list over on GS with ratings. Make sure you are looking at the latest tables. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...erface-low-latency-performance-data-base.html


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## motomuso (Dec 29, 2017)

steveo42 said:


> If the tech is mentioning power supply problems and corrosion, I would guess leaky electrolytic capacitors which can and will cause a mess to the circuit board and components physically near them. I do not know if this is a problem with RME, so this is just EE guess here. As for replacing the unit, latency is going to be your number one factor. I am assuming you are using VSTi here and not so much real instrument recording. RME is pretty much king of the hill with reliable round trip latency, especially under load. Other contenders are the MOTU AVB units, the new stuff not the older units. Don't get concerned with USB2 vs USB3, because USB2 has plenty of bandwidth. I wouldn't buy another FW device though because that is a dead end IMHO. Again, look for a device with solid RTL (round trip latency) and especially under load. There is a list over on GS with ratings. Make sure you are looking at the latest tables. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mus...erface-low-latency-performance-data-base.html



Thank you Steveo. It must have been a real mess inside that box. I pressed twice to have them simply restore the FW and headphone plugs to their positions on the case but they strongly refused. So, regarding a replacement my only USB concern is whether future computers will support USB2.0 as back-compatible. I'm not going to worry too much about it though, considering the abundance of USB2 currently in use and on sale now.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 29, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> As will be the FW extinction once the latest version of TB no longer supports it



Banter aside, is that actually true? Thunderbolt 3 uses a USB-C connector, but it's backward-compatible with Thunderbolt 2, which of course works with the FireWire adapter.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 29, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Banter aside, is that actually true? Thunderbolt 3 uses a USB-C connector, but it's backward-compatible with Thunderbolt 2, which of course works with the FireWire adapter.


I wouldn't be surprised if Thunderbolt 4 or 5 no longer supports it. No real reason for them to keep supporting it. Even if it is technically supported, it might be a case where no one is making the necessary adapter. If I'm not mistaken, FW was primarily used for video related work and nowadays it's way too slow for those people to still be using.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 29, 2017)

Okay, so you're just surmising.

FireWire is used for audio interfaces, hard drives, starting up Macs in FireWire Target Mode, video I/O, and you can even network over it. There's nothing wrong with it - it's very solid.

In general I wouldn't invest heavily in it starting now, but I wouldn't be afraid to buy a high-end Metric Halo interface - for the reason I said: they keep supporting their interfaces for years.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Dec 29, 2017)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Okay, so you're just surmising.
> 
> FireWire is used for audio interfaces, hard drives, starting up Macs in FireWire Target Mode, video I/O, and you can even network over it. There's nothing wrong with it - it's very solid.
> 
> In general I wouldn't invest heavily in it starting now, but I wouldn't be afraid to buy a high-end Metric Halo interface - for the reason I said: they keep supporting their interfaces for years.



I think the issue is that for the pro market, where SSD and 10Gbit network speeds are becoming the norm, FW is way too slow and so useless while in the prosumer market, computers don't have it and everything just uses USB 3. Consumer cameras and hard drives don't come with FW anymore. It's just like PCI and serial ports where soon, it won't be supported anywhere aside from specialty hardware for legacy gear.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 29, 2017)

Well, there's nothing wrong with my... I think it's now 16-year-old FireWire interface. Its sound still stands up and it's been totally reliable.

I haven't heard anything about FireWire not continuing to work with a Thunderbolt adapter, although I also haven't seen a FireWire-to-USB-C Thunderbolt adapter either.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 29, 2017)

...although this kind of thing does exist:


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## kclements (Dec 29, 2017)

Another fan of Metric Halo. Just bought a used 2882 to replace my MOTU Ultralite AVB. And with the 3D card on the way (yes, I know it’s a long time coming), FW doesn’t have to be an issue - you can upgrade _any_ MH interface.


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## motomuso (Dec 31, 2017)

Thanks for your help and comments. I have decided to keep my future input options open and have ordered the UCX (vs the Babyface). 
EDIT: One last question was removed.


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## motomuso (Dec 31, 2017)

For what it's worth, here's some further info quoted from the RME Fireface UCX FAQs with my own emphasis in bold.

Regarding the user's choice of USB 2.0 or available FW400:
"_What is better: USB or FireWire?_
_Only a test on your individual system can show. Theoretically the UCX will perform equally well on both connection protocols. Note that USB works best on up-to-date computers, while* FireWire might have an advantage on older computers*._"

And this is from the UCX user manual regarding USB. Again, bold is my emphasis:

"... _A Fireface can achieve a performance similar to a PCI or PCI Express card *when used with an optimal PC*. Low CPU load and click-free operation even at 48 samples buffer size are indeed possible on current computers. *However, using older computers a simple stereo playback will begin to cause a CPU load of more than 30%*. 

A computer blocked for a short time – no matter if ASIO or WDM – will lose one or more data packets. Such problems can only be solved by increasing the buffer size (and with this the latency). The Fireface features a unique data checking, detecting errors during transmission via USB and displaying them in the Settings dialog. Additionally the Fireface provides a special mechanism to continue recording and playback in case of drop-outs, and to correct the sample position in real-time. 

Like any audio interface the Fireface should have a data transmission to the computer as undisturbed as possible. The easiest way to guarantee this is to connect it to its own bus, which should be no big problem as most USB 2.0 interfaces are a double bus design..._"

So, I wonder what does RME consider to be an older computer. Perhaps a mid 2010 5.1 Mac Pro with dual quad-core 2.4gHz processors? I am looking into processor upgrades like dual six-core 3.46 gHz.

EDIT: Added link to RME Fireface UCX manual


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## kgdrum (Dec 31, 2017)

fwiw SynthAx(RME distribution and tech support in USA)told me that USB out performs FW.
I'm using the UCX with a 2012 MacPro 5,1 and I've only used it with USB2 and it's been great!
Good luck!


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## motomuso (Dec 31, 2017)

kgdrum said:


> fwiw SynthAx(RME distribution and tech support in USA)told me that USB out performs FW.
> I'm using the UCX with a 2012 MacPro 5,1 and I've only used it with USB2 and it's been great!
> Good luck!



Thanks. I'm hoping I'm in the same boat.


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## kclements (Dec 31, 2017)

This is precisely why I sold my MOTU Ultralite AVB - which I was using via USB - and went with the MH 2882. I have a 2012 MP and I didn't feel that the USB port was handling everything I was throwing at it - Dongles, Keyboard, MIDI interface and Audio interface. The MOTU was loosing connections and changing out the configuration in the middle of a session. 

Also, I figured that my FW ports are sitting there unused, might as well put them to use. 

Now, I know that RME drivers are well regarded, and maybe (quite possibly) better than the MOTU. But with my older machine, I am happier using the FW port for audio. And when I upgrade to a new Mac (which won't be for a while) I am comfortable knowing that my 2882 will be upgradable. 

Good luck with the UCX - I bet you will be fine.


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## motomuso (Jan 2, 2018)

kgdrum said:


> It's probably not a significant difference but I went with the UCX instead of the UC because the converters are supposedly better. I don't use the effects but overall the UCX imo is a better I/O than the FF.
> As far as drivers go either Metric Halo or RME are both very good and they are both great companies.



kgdrum, did your UCX come with an appropriate power cord? Mine was delivered very quickly from Sweetwater in Indiana to California with a CE approved wall plug which will come in handy if I ever travel to Europe. I only wish they had included one I could use here in the States.

My motorbike tire picked up a screw last night putting me on the side of the road. At least audio interfaces don't require towing. Far from being discouraged I am thrilled to be getting all the annoying crud out of the way early in the year. Now if only I can blow a speaker or two 2018 will be amazing!


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## kgdrum (Jan 2, 2018)

It did,call Sweetwater,I'm sure they will send it 1 day express.


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## kgdrum (Jan 2, 2018)

speaking of blowing a speaker:
*** Warning when you 1st fire up the UCX via TotalMix it defaults to full volume,turn it down before you play a sound.


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## motomuso (Jan 2, 2018)

kgdrum said:


> speaking of blowing a speaker:
> *** Warning when you 1st fire up the UCX via TotalMix it defaults to full volume,turn it down before you play a sound.



I will do that. Thank you!
And I will also confess to being an idiot, if I may use that word since it refers to me. I must have dropped the cord into the mass of black wires below the desk because I have just picked it up. So RME ship the boxes with both and I had lost the NEMA in the transplanting and cleaning mess. Man is my face red!


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## Pier (Jan 8, 2018)

If you are short on budget you could look into the Audient USB boxes.

https://audient.com/products/

Not as excellent as RME or Metric Halo, but very good price/quality ratio.


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## motomuso (Jan 8, 2018)

Pier Bover said:


> If you are short on budget you could look into the Audient USB boxes.
> 
> https://audient.com/products/
> 
> Not as excellent as RME or Metric Halo, but very good price/quality ratio.



Thanks Pier. I decided to get the RME Fireface UCX. Mt only complaint with it so far is its lack of a rear panel channel 7 and 8 outputs which I suppose I had overlooked. The front headphone jack doubles as 7 and 8 out which isn't ideal for my analog outs (8 TRS to D-SUB) to the Dangerous 2 bus. 9-16 are easy since they are optical. I'll try hooking up an extension or maybe use the patch bay - or maybe keep things simple and go back to summing inside the box.


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