# What's the verdict on the iMac and Mac Mini M1?



## Paul Owen (Aug 31, 2021)

Are they any good for large projects with various instances of Kontakt and mixing plugins or not? 

I find myself on the market for an upgrade and I can't find anything that indicates either way to an answer...
As it stands I'm either going the M1 or M1x route or an iMac circa 2017-2020 with i7 chip and as much RAM and storage as possible. 

Any thoughts would be great.


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## rnb_2 (Aug 31, 2021)

M1x machines are probably coming sometime in October - 14" and 16" MacBook Pros with at least 32GB RAM possible (maybe 64), but with unknown pricing. There may also be an M1x Mac mini coming at the same time to replace the i5/i7 Intel minis🤞

The verdict on the M1 at this point is that they work well if you can fit your projects into RAM - there are changes that can be made to Kontakt's preload buffer to reduce RAM usage, and similar things can usually be done with other sample players. It would be a stretch to say that you can fit something that requires 32GB on Intel into 16GB on an M1, but you can push things in different ways on the M1 and it keeps working.

Probably the most extensive discussion here was in this thread, especially starting around page 12 when @Soundbed got ahold of one and put it through some stress tests.

(Just edited my original post - realized that my link to the earlier thread hadn't worked, but it seems to have worked out in the end. I added the link back in case anyone happens upon this thread.)


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## Soundbed (Aug 31, 2021)

Paul Owen said:


> Are they any good for large projects with various instances of Kontakt and mixing plugins or not?


define large


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## Paul Owen (Aug 31, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> define large


50-60 tracks (large for me at least)


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## Soundbed (Aug 31, 2021)

Paul Owen said:


> 50-60 tracks (large for me at least)


I could “make it work”. But I’d likely be bouncing some to audio along the way.
If you need to edit cues and keep everything fluid in MIDI you’ll likely be pushing the RAM / swap file to a limit or past it and might be unhappy. I don’t think it’s ideal. If you can keep your RAM (or whatever it’s called) low enough either by purging, mic merging, bouncing to audio, using older libraries with smaller footprints or whatever means then you’ll probably be fine.

as @rnb_2 mentioned the buffer sizes were key for me. They must be lowered to take advantage of the machine’s strengths.

I bought a MBP M1 with the most RAM 16GB and 1TB hard drive and returned it within the two week trial period for my tests. I went back to my 2018 MBP i9 with 32GB RAM and I’m happy to wait longer for the next round of M1x with more RAM etc.


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## Paul Owen (Aug 31, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I could “make it work”. But I’d likely be bouncing some to audio along the way.
> If you need to edit cues and keep everything fluid in MIDI you’ll likely be pushing the RAM / swap file to a limit or past it and might be unhappy. I don’t think it’s ideal. If you can keep your RAM (or whatever it’s called) low enough either by purging, mic merging, bouncing to audio, using older libraries with smaller footprints or whatever means then you’ll probably be fine.
> 
> as @rnb_2 mentioned the buffer sizes were key for me. They must be lowered to take advantage of the machine’s strengths.
> ...


Good to know. I'll probably err on the side of caution and go with an Intel model to tide me over for the next few years.

I appreciate the responses chaps! 

All the best


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## Tren (Sep 1, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I bought a MBP M1 with the most RAM 16GB and 1TB hard drive and returned it within the two week trial period for my tests.


Got same machine. $2,012 and change. Returned after 2 days. Big issue I had was the PWM in the screen. Massive migraine after 10 minutes of use.

Also, 13.3” is a tad under my minimum. If screen runs at native res, it’s too small. If running scaled, everything looks like how Windows looks on 15.6” 768p displays. Using Sidecar with an iPad forces both screens to scale up (looks terrible), as well.

Also, I’m so used to high refresh rate screens that I kind of can’t deal with slower 60Hz displays. A 1080p 14” 16:9 display at 100% is kind of the sweet spot for me - currently. I need at least 120Hz. 

Got a R9 14” laptop that’s around the same size with good batttery life and saved $750. Upgraded the RAM myself.

for orchestral stuff I would avoid M1 entirely. 16GB RAM is stretching it even with the swapping. That depends also on the types of libraries you use, though.


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## wayne_rowley (Sep 1, 2021)

The Apple M1 series show the potential of the platform. I have an M1 Air that I use for general computing (not music) and it is great - exactly what a laptop should be. I think the current M1 series might work for musicians who are mostly audio based (minimal VI/samples), but I don't think they are good for anything else right now given the 16GB RAM limit. No matter how fast the RAM is, it can't replace having 32GB or more.

Also, most music software is still only compatible via Rosetta (and some still not even then).

My hope is in an M1X/M2 Mac Mini. I am hoping that

a) It will support 64GB of RAM
b) That the RAM price won't be extortionate

I am under no illusions that it will be upgradable. Their computers are becoming like their phones and tablets - closed systems/appliances. It will therefore be necessary to buy it with maximum RAM from Apple, which I fear will be stupid money. The only exception to this will be the Mac Pros... which are already stupid money anyway (at least for me - I'm sure for many users the cost can and is justified).

If the new Minis however max out at 32GB of RAM though, I will be thinking again! While it's better, my current Intel Mini has 32GB and I'd want at least double that for a future computer (ideally with the option of 128GB - I find that future proofing works best if I can increase the RAM 4x what I buy it with).

If this is the case, sadly, I may look at a PC as my next music machine, purely due to the user upgradability and higher RAM possibilities.

I await the next few months with interest...

Wayne


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## Paul Owen (Sep 1, 2021)

Thanks for all the responses, you've managed to assure me that despite the hype, the M1's aren't the be all and end all for music production (yet). 

With the new infrastructure of the M1 chip and how it works...how have Apple managed to paint the picture that 16gb is sufficient? I've seen videos on YT that show heavy video editing to be a breeze and yet from you guys (the horse's mouth) music production is problematic...it's a little contradictory. 
I'm willing to jump on the bandwagon but probably not for a few more years.


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## rnb_2 (Sep 1, 2021)

Paul Owen said:


> Thanks for all the responses, you've managed to assure me that despite the hype, the M1's aren't the be all and end all for music production (yet).
> 
> With the new infrastructure of the M1 chip and how it works...how have Apple managed to paint the picture that 16gb is sufficient? I've seen videos on YT that show heavy video editing to be a breeze and yet from you guys (the horse's mouth) music production is problematic...it's a little contradictory.
> I'm willing to jump on the bandwagon but probably not for a few more years.


It's all about RAM, and the need for more than 16GB is really an edge case in modern computing. I've never needed more than 16GB for photo or video editing, and was shocked to see the RAM needs for sample players when I found VI-C last spring. Even with music production, it's mostly the subset that relies on orchestral samples that pushes RAM that hard, and the M1 can handle that up to a point.


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## Paul Owen (Sep 1, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> It's all about RAM, and the need for more than 16GB is really an edge case in modern computing. I've never needed more than 16GB for photo or video editing, and was shocked to see the RAM needs for sample players when I found VI-C last spring. Even with music production, it's mostly the subset that relies on orchestral samples that pushes RAM that hard, and the M1 can handle that up to a point.


Ah good point. That explains it. 

Thanks very much, so glad to have this forum that has people who can explain in detail, the issues with this sort of thing.


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## khollister (Sep 1, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> It's all about RAM, and the need for more than 16GB is really an edge case in modern computing. I've never needed more than 16GB for photo or video editing, and was shocked to see the RAM needs for sample players when I found VI-C last spring. Even with music production, it's mostly the subset that relies on orchestral samples that pushes RAM that hard, and the M1 can handle that up to a point.


I'm using a 16GB M1 MBP as my travel machine. While you absolutely cannot run medium to large templates with unfrozen tracks, you can do some small to moderate sample-based projects with bouncing/freezing tracks when necessary. With synths or modestly-sized sample libraries (not the orchestral usual suspects) it rocks. 

I'm not running out and replacing my 64GB iMac Pro yet (even though the single core performance of the M1 smokes it), but I may revisit that next year if the next generation or two of the Apple Silicon stuff goes where I think it will. I might even consider a 32GB machine if the CPU multicore performance is a substantial improvement over the iMP. Freezing/bouncing tracks in Logic on the M1 is not that bad, and I'm not uncomfortable with the workflow (it's how I used to work anyway). 

But I agree that based on how many here operate with massive templates and large track count with nothing frozen, the current M1's are not practical. I'm fortunately not doing music professionally any more and have a lot more latitude in how I work - no deadlines or "time is money" issues.


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## dcoscina (Sep 1, 2021)

I got 50 tracks of Kontakt based instruments on my 2015 MacBook Air i7 with only 8gb back when I was doing a game score. I haven’t pushed the Mac Mini 16gb but I’ve loaded BBC core into Dorico with no issues.


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## davidson (Sep 1, 2021)

CPU wise, on some plugins I can hit 6 keys without breaking a sweat on the m1 whereas a single key was making my 2013 6-core mac pro stutter and pop.

RAM isn't a deal breaker because I work around it by freezing when need be and I don't work from a huge template. Will definitely be upgrading to the next iteration if it includes more ram. Extra cores will be a bonus.


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## dcoscina (Sep 1, 2021)

davidson said:


> CPU wise, on some plugins I can hit 6 keys without breaking a sweat on the m1 whereas a single key was making my 2013 6-core mac pro stutter and pop.
> 
> RAM isn't a deal breaker because I work around it by freezing when need be and I don't work from a huge template. Will definitely be upgrading to the next iteration if it includes more ram. Extra cores will be a bonus.


I agree- I don't use massive templates (for better or worse). I load up what I need for the cue or piece. So I never really make it past 80 tracks and the average is somewhere between 30-40 at most. So for me, the Mini is a great new acquisition. And honestly, I got it mainly as a notation-based computer where I work in mostly Dorico, MuseScore or Sibelius. But it's nice to use BBC or VSL as playback in the M1 with no performance issues compared to my previous MacBook Air which could not take them... I would have to use NotePerformer exclusively.


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## Wunderhorn (Sep 1, 2021)

Not being able to expand the RAM is a no-go. Even for my design and illustration work I need 128GB and more.

If making music is a hobby for you you can afford to experiment and see how far the M1 would take you. And why not.
If you are a professional, I have to ask why buy a tricycle when it promises to be an encumbrance every single day when trying to get from A to B. You would be pinching pennies at the wrong end. Get a machine that is always 2 numbers larger than what you need - simply because you'll grow into needing it sooner than you think. The next Black Friday sample library splurge comes soon enough, you'll want to add to the template and BAM! - you'll hit the ceiling and have to scramble with constant purging, freezing, disabling tracks, blablabla. That's not how you get shit done.

From my view it is either a Mac Pro, or a strong Windows PC if the wallet is smaller. There is always still enough frustration built-in with even the best technology. You'll want to reduce it as much as possible so you can get to the one thing that matters: Be creative.


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## Tren (Sep 2, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> It's all about RAM, and the need for more than 16GB is really an edge case in modern computing. I've never needed more than 16GB for photo or video editing, and was shocked to see the RAM needs for sample players when I found VI-C last spring. Even with music production, it's mostly the subset that relies on orchestral samples that pushes RAM that hard, and the M1 can handle that up to a point.


For video editing 32GB is fairly standard, unless you use lower end software or edit low resolution footage. Needing more than 16 is def not an edge case in “modern” computing. 

And the people comparing 2013 i7s to M1… Bless, but that’s not saying much.


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## rnb_2 (Sep 2, 2021)

Tren said:


> For video editing 32GB is fairly standard, unless you use lower end software or edit low resolution footage. Needing more than 16 is def not an edge case in “modern” computing.
> 
> And the people comparing 2013 i7s to M1… Bless, but that’s not saying much.


I'm not saying more won't help, but I've edited 4k with 16GB with FCP and Davinci with no problems.


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## Tren (Sep 2, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I'm not saying more won't help, but I've edited 4k with 16GB with FCP and Davinci with no problems.


Depends on workload and what you do. if you're just cutting up YouTube videos with barely any work done on them, then that's not going to tax your system much and you can get away with it.

If you're doing any type of Visual Effects/Compositing, Noise Reduction, etc. then a machine doing that in DaVinci is going to run into issues with VRAM and possibly RAM as well.

Borderline cases can be taken care off with swapping on all modern OSes, regardless of platform. Most creators run systems with NVMe system drives, and the swap file generally lives there. So, they may not even notice if the system is swapping unless the RAM demands of the application really go into the stratosphere.

However, GPU requirements for Resolve are both in the VRAM and GPU Processing Power department, and the M1's iGPU is upper-budget or - on the very best of days - mid-range at best for that stuff.


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## rnb_2 (Sep 2, 2021)

Fair points - the 4K editing that I did with a 16GB Mac mini also included an 8GB eGPU. Since everything is shared on the M1, that will impact things, but I haven't done any video editing on the M1 yet.


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## Ivan M. (Sep 5, 2021)

Has anyone tried using M1 with a full orchestra with modelled libraries, like infinite winds / brass, sample modelling, pianoteq etc. So CPU, not memory, intensive libraries.
My intel i7 is dying in dense orchestrations. Anyone know how M1 handles this?


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## Soundbed (Sep 12, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> Has anyone tried using M1 with a full orchestra with modelled libraries, like infinite winds / brass, sample modelling, pianoteq etc. So CPU, not memory, intensive libraries.
> My intel i7 is dying in dense orchestrations. Anyone know how M1 handles this?


I'm almost interested enough to buy another M1 for a week or so to try it out. Almost. But in the end I'd still want my higher RAM packages as well (as modelled libraries).


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## Xiheua (Nov 19, 2021)

Adding to Ivan's question, has anybody with an m1 16gb tested how many kontakt tracks can it handle while recording? Say 20 kontakt orchestral plugin tracks loaded into logic, and recording on top of that; is it doable? Or 15, instead of 20


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## rnb_2 (Nov 19, 2021)

Xiheua said:


> Adding to Ivan's question, has anybody with an m1 16gb tested how many kontakt tracks can it handle while recording? Say 20 kontakt orchestral plugin tracks loaded into logic, and recording on top of that; is it doable? Or 15, instead of 20


I don't remember what @Soundbed's tests included, but he did probably the most extensive test of an M1 of anyone here. The main issue is that anybody who is serious about composing with VIs stayed away from M1 because of the RAM limit (@Soundbed found himself with time on his hands due to system repair downtime). You can check his Youtube channel for more (link is in his signature).

In most cases, time is money for a working composer, so any testing has costs on top of the actual purchase, and a serious hobbyist likely would have something better to do with $1-2k than testing a new architecture just to satisfy their curiosity.

I could justify an M1 Mac mini (and later a MacBook Air) because I'm primarily a photographer, and Adobe's photo software was some of the earliest committed to going "native". I knew that my cameras (I've pretty much held at 20 megapixels for a few years now) wouldn't stress the RAM limit, and I was only running a 16GB 2018 i7 Mac mini when the M1s came out, so I was looking at no worse than equal performance from an M1, even with Rosetta. As a recently-arrived hobbyist in this area, I lack the talent, experience, and high-end VIs necessary to do a meaningful test.

I think we'll start to see a lot more testing and benchmarks of Apple Silicon now that there are 32GB and 64GB configurations available, as that makes the architecture much easier to justify for pros and serious hobbyists. There might be a possibility of someone going back and doing a comparison to an M1 if they think it will pull viewers on YT, but we'll have to wait and see on that.


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## Xiheua (Nov 19, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I don't remember what @Soundbed's tests included, but he did probably the most extensive test of an M1 of anyone here. The main issue is that anybody who is serious about composing with VIs stayed away from M1 because of the RAM limit (@Soundbed found himself with time on his hands due to system repair downtime). You can check his Youtube channel for more (link is in his signature).
> 
> In most cases, time is money for a working composer, so any testing has costs on top of the actual purchase, and a serious hobbyist likely would have something better to do with $1-2k than testing a new architecture just to satisfy their curiosity.
> 
> ...


I did read all/most of Soundbed's posts with tests etc., but I'm not experienced yet to extrapolate from those results how good would the performance be for the specific scenario (recording one instrument track, over 15 already recorded instrument tracks (midi obviously)).

On a 1.5k budget I'm considering getting the m1 16 gb macbook air to learn and grow my portfolio (mostly short films) for the next few years, and use the remaining money for external ssd and misc stuff).

I rely on VIs, however I don't really need any more tracks than 15 + I'm always able to freeze some without any problem (if you have say 30 tracks, usually half of them aren't needed for reference while recording).


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## rnb_2 (Nov 19, 2021)

Xiheua said:


> I did read all/most of Soundbed's posts with tests etc., but I'm not experienced yet to extrapolate from those results how good would the performance be for the specific scenario (recording one instrument track, over 15 already recorded instrument tracks (midi obviously)).
> 
> On a 1.5k budget I'm considering getting the m1 16 gb macbook air to learn and grow my portfolio (mostly short films) for the next few years, and use the remaining money for external ssd and misc stuff).
> 
> I rely on VIs, however I don't really need any more tracks than 15 + I'm always able to freeze some without any problem (if you have say 30 tracks, usually half of them aren't needed for reference while recording).


My gut feeling is that you'd be fine with an M1. Apple does generally have a 14-day return policy, so I'd probably recommend getting an Air and trying it with something typical for you.


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## Xiheua (Nov 19, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> My gut feeling is that you'd be fine with an M1. Apple does generally have a 14-day return policy, so I'd probably recommend getting an Air and trying it with something typical for you.


Yeah I'll probably do that. I was almost a decided on buying it anyways, but wanted to confirm some details rather than having to deal with any problems after buying it.


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## Soundbed (Nov 19, 2021)

Xiheua said:


> Adding to Ivan's question, has anybody with an m1 16gb tested how many kontakt tracks can it handle while recording? Say 20 kontakt orchestral plugin tracks loaded into logic, and recording on top of that; is it doable? Or 15, instead of 20


Yes, I'd say it's doable with 16GB soc "RAM".

Lower your preload buffer to the lowest, and follow my other tips in that video and you should be pretty "optimized" even with Rosetta.


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## Xiheua (Nov 19, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Yes, I'd say it's doable with 16GB soc "RAM".
> 
> Lower your preload buffer to the lowest, and follow my other tips in that video and you should be pretty "optimized" even with Rosetta.


Thanks a lot! Will follow your advice


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