# Tried the new NI S88 Mark 2. Keyboard still doesn't feel good.



## Headlands

I went to GC (ack!) this morning just to try the S88 Mark 2, hoping the keyboard would feel better than the Mark 1. Unfortunately, it feels even worse to me. It's spongy and feels "smooshy". Total bummer. I was all ready to buy one...not quite sure what I'll do now. The other parts of it are excellent, especially lighting up the zones on the keyboard and other things like the extra expression strip, but the feel...

I don't need an "authentic piano feel", but I do need playability, and for me the S88 fails here.

Maybe I can get used to it. Hmmmm.

Anyone else tried it yet?


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## jononotbono

I'm really curious what the actual Fatar Keybed is? I can't find that information anywhere.


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## Headlands

jononotbono said:


> I'm really curious what the actual Fatar Keybed is? I can't find that information anywhere.



I can't find that info either. It must be the spongy smooshy Fatar model. :-D


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## Nathanael Iversen

Previous one was said to be TP100, which makes sense given the weight. It's not heavy enough to have a TP/40 in it. I've pretty much just accepted that unless you are paying about $2k and up, something that approximates a real piano isn't going to happen. The Yamaha CP4's can be found under $2k, also the Roland RD-2000. If you want something that is as good as it gets? That's the Kawai MP11. It is better than a lot of acoustic pianos. Not high end grands, but shockingly good.


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## Headlands

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Previous one was said to be TP100, which makes sense given the weight. It's not heavy enough to have a TP/40 in it. I've pretty much just accepted that unless you are paying about $2k and up, something that approximates a real piano isn't going to happen. The Yamaha CP4's can be found under $2k, also the Roland RD-2000. If you want something that is as good as it gets? That's the Kawai MP11. It is better than a lot of acoustic pianos. Not high end grands, but shockingly good.



I hear you, yeah. This one feels much spongier/smooshier than mark 1 -- I compared them side-by-side at GC and the mark 2 is definitely different. I guess whether it's better or worse will be individual preference. Personally I would pay more to get a better keyboard, but c'est la vie.


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## Nathanael Iversen

I think there are two paths forming in the "weighted controller" world. 

1. There are actions and keyboards with the express intent of providing a piano-like experience. They are stage pianos, and then the whole world of digital console and "digital grand" pianos. Only the stage pianos have any real portability, and you can't get the very best actions in stage pianos or synths. They are reserved for consoles and "digital grands". As good as the MP11 is, Kawaii has even better actions in their console pianos. 

2. There are "weighted actions" that offer more resistance and generally better feel than synth actions. There are plenty of musicians who need 88 keys to run samples, but who would not identify as pianists. There are pianists that would happily sacrifice feel to get something really light to gig with, and if they can be expressive enough for the band they are in... they will deal. Some want a compromise action that is also light enough to play synth or organ on. Nord makes these kinds of things - based on TP100. 

If you need/want #1, there is nothing else going to satisfy. 

If you want/can accept #2, the best actions are in the premium workstation boards: Kronos, Montage, Kurz Forte, etc. It is pretty rapidly downhill from there the more you want #1, but with other benefits.

Turns out the piano is a specific thing. It's keyboard is ideally suited for playing piano. But arguably, it is not superior for a lot of other things. So, we get a whole world of #2 that caters to all the needs other than "plays as close as possible to a piano". The marketing for a lot of #2 devices would tell you they are trying to make #1 happen, but its easy to spot. There are no really credible #1 instruments that are less than 40lbs. Some are much heavier. Anything that is 25-30lbs isn't #1. 

That's my quick take


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## Nathanael Iversen

You will also notice that the best #1 pianos are made by companies that make acoustic pianos. Yamaha CP4, Kawaii MP11. Roland RD-200 is a close mention, but it is still not in the same league, even though it is quite nice to my fingers.


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## Headlands

Nathanael Iversen said:


> I think there are two paths forming in the "weighted controller" world.
> 
> 1. There are actions and keyboards with the express intent of providing a piano-like experience. They are stage pianos, and then the whole world of digital console and "digital grand" pianos. Only the stage pianos have any real portability, and you can't get the very best actions in stage pianos or synths. They are reserved for consoles and "digital grands". As good as the MP11 is, Kawaii has even better actions in their console pianos.
> 
> 2. There are "weighted actions" that offer more resistance and generally better feel than synth actions. There are plenty of musicians who need 88 keys to run samples, but who would not identify as pianists. There are pianists that would happily sacrifice feel to get something really light to gig with, and if they can be expressive enough for the band they are in... they will deal. Some want a compromise action that is also light enough to play synth or organ on. Nord makes these kinds of things - based on TP100.
> 
> If you need/want #1, there is nothing else going to satisfy.
> 
> If you want/can accept #2, the best actions are in the premium workstation boards: Kronos, Montage, Kurz Forte, etc. It is pretty rapidly downhill from there the more you want #1, but with other benefits.
> 
> Turns out the piano is a specific thing. It's keyboard is ideally suited for playing piano. But arguably, it is not superior for a lot of other things. So, we get a whole world of #2 that caters to all the needs other than "plays as close as possible to a piano". The marketing for a lot of #2 devices would tell you they are trying to make #1 happen, but its easy to spot. There are no really credible #1 instruments that are less than 40lbs. Some are much heavier. Anything that is 25-30lbs isn't #1.
> 
> That's my quick take



I totally agree with this. I'm in the #2 camp, and the new S88 is too heavy and mushy feeling for that kind of use IMO (plus it's not good for #1 either, also IMO), which is kind of what most producers/composers these days would prefer, I would think, given the multitude of things a single keyboard has to do.


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## whiskers

Bummer to hear, I'm going to check it out this weekend. Not digging the clunky action of my mpk88


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## Carlos Lopez-Real

jononotbono said:


> I'm really curious what the actual Fatar Keybed is? I can't find that information anywhere.


Hi Luke, the most I got out of NI was this: "the Keybed used in the S88 Mk2 is not the same as in the S88 mk1. It is a Fatar Keybed, customized for our new S88 MK2". They wouldn't be drawn on any other specifics, e.g. whether it has triple sensor tech or anything else.


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## Headlands

whiskers said:


> Bummer to hear, I'm going to check it out this weekend. Not digging the clunky action of my mpk88



I'll be interested to hear what others think. Some may love it - who knows.


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## jononotbono

Carlos Lopez-Real said:


> Hi Luke, the most I got out of NI was this: "the Keybed used in the S88 Mk2 is not the same as in the S88 mk1. It is a Fatar Keybed, customized for our new S88 MK2". They wouldn't be drawn on any other specifics, e.g. whether it has triple sensor tech or anything else.



I feel like NI not releasing this information is a red flag to me and not to get one. Why the secrecy? Is it because the keybed could possibly be bad enough to lose potential sales? I mean, the LMk4+ has all details on the Doepfer site. As a consumer, I expect details.

I really wanted to love the MK2 but I think I’m just going to look at other options. Perhaps a S61 would be a good compromise to have a synth action controller alongside a different 88 weighted. Might just get drunk and let the booze make the decision because choosing the right one has got exhausting.


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## Headlands

jononotbono said:


> I feel like NI not releasing this information is a red flag to me and not to get one. Why the secrecy? Is it because the keybed could possibly be bad enough to lose potential sales? I mean, the LMk4+ has all details on the Doepfer site. As a consumer, I expect details.
> 
> I really wanted to love the MK2 but I think I’m just going to look at other options. Perhaps a S61 would be a good compromise to have a synth action controller alongside a different 88 weighted. Might just get drunk and let the booze make the decision because choosing the right one has got exhausting.



I'm the same boat. The mk 2 is a major disappointment after waiting for so long for what I was hoping would be an improvement, not something that's bad in other ways (to me). I'm not sure what to do because the lighted zoning would be amazing, but with only 61 keys there would be a lot of octave switching to see the different zones for many instruments I use, plus it would be too small for more than a few drum VSTi's that I have.


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## sostenuto

No clue what MIDI Keyboard Users expect. I spent more _every year_ for regulating and tuning a Grotrian Concert Grand, than the best of these MIDI keyboards cost.
Maybe some can get close with a MIDI'd grand …

https://www.spectrasonics.net/video...ntID=all&q=trilian&Search+Video+Button=Search
*(DUO #1 or #2)*

Then, no ModWheel, etc.

imho ….. no way anything KK (or much else) gets close. Roland KR577 has been myn attempt to get in the ballpark, but …. _good luck!_


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## Headlands

sostenuto said:


> No clue what MIDI Keyboard Users expect. I spent more _every year_ for regulating and tuning a Grotrian Concert Grand, than the best of these MIDI keyboards cost.
> Maybe some can get close with a MIDI'd grand …
> 
> https://www.spectrasonics.net/video...ntID=all&q=trilian&Search+Video+Button=Search
> 
> Then, no ModWheel, etc.
> 
> imho ….. no way anything KK (or much else) gets close. Roland KR577 has been myn attempt to get in the ballpark, but …. _good luck!_



Yes, agreed.

I should have been clearer with my original post: I personally don't need totally authentic piano action, but the S88 is the only 88-key thing NI makes. The "authentic" thing is secondary to playability for me, and a mushy feel that's heavy like the S88 mk 2 doesn't make for good playability as far as I'm concerned. The better hammer-action keypads are great playability-wise, but I do understand the cost and weight factor for NI. Honestly, I'd be happier with semi-weighted keys on the S88 than what's on there now.


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## sostenuto

Headlands said:


> Yes, agreed.
> 
> I should have been clearer with my original post: I personally don't need totally authentic piano action, but the S88 is the only 88-key thing NI makes. The "authentic" thing is secondary to playability for me, and a mushy feel that's heavy like the S88 mk 2 doesn't make for good playability as far as I'm concerned. The better hammer-action keypads are great playability-wise, but I do understand the cost and weight factor for NI. Honestly, I'd be happier with semi-weighted keys on the S88 than what's on there now.



I am biased, but trust Roland to provide as well as I can expect. 

_Having Alex Acuna setting a background can extract amazing creativity from most of us ……….. _

Lyle Mays can always do better on the 'least' of keyboards, than many ….
Checkout his Video #2 with Alex A ……...


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## Nathanael Iversen

sostenuto said:


> No clue what MIDI Keyboard Users expect. I spent more _every year_ for regulating and tuning a Grotrian Concert Grand, than the best of these MIDI keyboards cost.
> Maybe some can get close with a MIDI'd grand …



A Grotrian! What a nice (and not as common) instrument! I've got a Kawaii RX-7 here with an optical MIDI rail in it, but it is pretty hard to get the velocity ranges right. A real grand action is far more expressive than 8 bit MIDI allows - I've been unable to get a curve that matches in software what my piano is doing acoustically. I get why Bosendorfer's $50k system for their grands uses 1024 levels.


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## Bill the Lesser

So OK, does the S88 MK2 have a feel that's more towards "synth" than "real piano?" I'd actually like that. Been hearing conflicting things about this.

I heard somewhere that the keypress ends up against a piece of memory foam, which explains the "smooshy" comment. Weird, I doubt if that would even last very long. The S61 MK2 stops against something pretty hard after about 7 or 8 mm. It's nice and positive, tells me when to stop trying.

I like my S61 MK2 for its kinda firm synth feel, the fast spring back keeps me from fumbling adjacent keys. The LEDs are great for narrow range instruments where I can fit the keyswitches inside the 61 key range, but for most instruments it's a wash, there's no good way to fit the LEDs in view without too much shifting up or down. 88 keys is a must-have to justify the LED concept. I'd buy the S88 MK2 in a flash if I thought I could deal with the feel.

BTW, the displays on the MK2 are almost pointless as far as browsing goes, just sayin'. I do like the mixer display, however.


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## Greg

Wonder if they went with a cheaper keybed to cut costs and keep it at $999 with the LCD screen upgrade. I really like the mk1, I even ditched the much more expensive Doepfer LMK4+ for it.


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## Headlands

Bill the Lesser said:


> So OK, does the S88 MK2 have a feel that's more towards "synth" than "real piano?" I'd actually like that. Been hearing conflicting things about this.
> 
> I heard somewhere that the keypress ends up against a piece of memory foam, which explains the "smooshy" comment. Weird, I doubt if that would even last very long. The S61 MK2 stops against something pretty hard after about 7 or 8 mm. It's nice and positive, tells me when to stop trying.
> 
> I like my S61 MK2 for its kinda firm synth feel, the fast spring back keeps me from fumbling adjacent keys. The LEDs are great for narrow range instruments where I can fit the keyswitches inside the 61 key range, but for most instruments it's a wash, there's no good way to fit the LEDs in view without too much shifting up or down. 88 keys is a must-have to justify the LED concept. I'd buy the S88 MK2 in a flash if I thought I could deal with the feel.
> 
> BTW, the displays on the MK2 are almost pointless as far as browsing goes, just sayin'. I do like the mixer display, however.



Yeah, the foam is a bad move. There's no way I would buy this keyboard personally -- it doesn't feel more synth or more real piano...it just feels mushy and...bleh.

If they made an 88-key version with the S61 keyboard I'd be happy. The S88 mk 2 is just a weird mushy situation, to me, and I won't buy it even though I would love to for its other great features. Such a drag.


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## dflood

Headlands said:


> If they made an 88-key version with the S61 keyboard I'd be happy. The S88 mk 2 is just a weird mushy situation, to me, and I won't buy it even though I would love to for its other great features. Such a drag.



You’re right, the S61, at least the first generation model that I have, stops pretty firmly and then you have to really press down for aftertouch, firm enough that you wouldn’t accidentally engage it. The weighting is nothing like a piano though, if that is what anyone is after. Thanks for the heads up on the new S88.


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## Nathanael Iversen

The mushy bit is likely the aftertouch strip, though some weighted actions are just heavy and slow to reset. The best #1 instruments don't have them for precisely this reason (and of course, pianos don't have it either).


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## tmhuud

Rats. I was SO hoping this KB was going to rock. Will have to take some time though to try it out for myself.


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## Headlands

tmhuud said:


> Rats. I was SO hoping this KB was going to rock. Will have to take some time though to try it out for myself.



Yeah, this is all just my opinion. But I can't imagine anyone would disagree with the "mushy" part -- though some may like it, just like a few people here love the S88 mk 1.


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## Nathanael Iversen

Everyone interested should play it. Actions are pretty personal. And one's piano technique definitely plays a factor. Those who can execute complex material on an acoustic piano have very different needs than someone looking to enter notes into a DAW one line at a time. The repetition rates and other things like key leverage (key length) play a big role in feeling right for a trained pianist. But for most people, these are not real considerations.


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## Headlands

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Everyone interested should play it. Actions are pretty personal. And one's piano technique definitely plays a factor. Those who can execute complex material on an acoustic piano have very different needs than someone looking to enter notes into a DAW one line at a time. The repetition rates and other things like key leverage (key length) play a big role in feeling right for a trained pianist. But for most people, these are not real considerations.



I agree that is very personal, indeed, as I've said here. But one doesn't need to be a trained pianist to be able to appreciate things like note repetition and more. Even for people who only play one note at a time, these things can matter. I can play basic piano but I also know how it should feel for me in order to execute things like fast repetitions well, to be able to play synth/sample and drums in with good key response and feel, etc. I've played other fully weighted controller keyboards (Studiologic and Yamaha) that were noticeably superior for my tastes than the S88, for the huge variety of instruments that I might be playing in when scoring a film (sometimes playing one note at a time and sometimes playing full piano-style, albeit not at an advanced technical level).

\I'm definitely interested to hear others' opinions on this keyboard. The majority of posts I've seen about S88 mk 1 complain about the keyboard feel (including me), but there are some exceptions. Mk 2 definitely does not play close to a real piano (at least compared to the great real Yamaha piano I have in my studio), that's for sure, for those who are looking for that - though to expect that from a keyboard that's very advanced in other ways at this price isn't realistic, as someone pointed out.

To me it just feels kinda bad, on any/all levels.


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## Geoff Grace

The best guess at _Keyboard_ magazine's forum is that it's the http://www.fatar.com/pages/TP100LR.html (Fatar | TP/100LR)—not exactly a beloved action.

Best,

Geoff


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## Wunderhorn

If they had left out the screen gimmicks (those are probably outdated soon) and pushed the price tag closer to $500 I might have been interested.


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## funnybear

I recently went to MusicStore in Cologne on a road trip through Europe and tested all the actions of all the keyboards they had on display. The S88 MK1 was horrible. The best "light" action suitable for piano and synth playing I found was on the Studiologic Sl88 Grand which has a Fatar TP/40WOOD keybed (graded).

So I was hoping the S88 Mk2 would use the TP/40WOOD or even better the TP/40L which is the lightest version ungraded across the full 88 keys.

But from the early feedback it seems they used something else.


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## whiskers

Headlands said:


> I'll be interested to hear what others think. Some may love it - who knows.


Apparently it was not at my GC. Oh well


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## Nao Gam

jononotbono said:


> I'm really curious what the actual Fatar Keybed is? I can't find that information anywhere.


Let's invade NI HQ to find out. You bring the machine guns, I'll bring the T-rex


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## Nathanael Iversen

funnybear said:


> I recently went to MusicStore in Cologne on a road trip through Europe and tested all the actions of all the keyboards they had on display. The S88 MK1 was horrible. The best "light" action suitable for piano and synth playing I found was on the Studiologic Sl88 Grand which has a Fatar TP/40WOOD keybed (graded).
> 
> So I was hoping the S88 Mk2 would use the TP/40WOOD or even better the TP/40L which is the lightest version ungraded across the full 88 keys.



The Studiologic is the least expensive TP40/WOOD action on the market, as far as I know, at $900 USD. Note that it also weighs 45lbs - almost 2x the S88. Most things that use TP40 (like the Kurzweil Forte), are significantly more expensive. The Nord Piano 4 uses a modified version with programming to help improve finger/sound connection and it is $3k. NI has spent the $$ difference between TP/40 and TP/100 on the LightGuide, fancy screen, enough brains to interface with their software, big marketing budget, etc. 

If you want something better than TP/40, your options are basically from companies that don't use Fatar, or who modify a stock Fatar action: Yamaha CP4, Kawai MP11, Nord Piano 4, Roland RD-2000. The Kawai VPC1 is the only pure controller with a better action than TP40, but it has its own limitations in terms of running a composing rig. Or you find something "good enough" and just make music.


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## KerrySmith

Headlands said:


> I hear you, yeah. This one feels much spongier/smooshier than mark 1 -- I compared them side-by-side at GC and the mark 2 is definitely different. I guess whether it's better or worse will be individual preference. Personally I would pay more to get a better keyboard, but c'est la vie.



I trust your judgement for what you’re comfortable with, but I do feel compelled to point out if you compared both at Guitar Center, AND if you compared floor models, it’s very likely that the Mk I you played was stiffer when brand-new (like the Mark II) than it became after being banged on by all kinds of tire-kickers in-store for (possibly) over 2 years.


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## whiskers

KerrySmith said:


> I trust your judgement for what you’re comfortable with, but I do feel compelled to point out if you compared both at Guitar Center, AND if you compared floor models, it’s very likely that the Mk I you played was stiffer when brand-new (like the Mark II) than it became after being banged on by all kinds of tire-kickers in-store for (possibly) over 2 years.


But he's saying the mk2 already felt softer/spongier than the mk1 which already took 2 years of demo abuse , not stiffer, so makes you wonder how mk2 will hold up


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## EvilDragon

Nathanael Iversen said:


> or who modify a stock Fatar action: Yamaha CP4, Kawai MP11, Nord Piano 4, Roland RD-2000



RD-2000 doesn't use a modified Fatar action, it's Roland's own design. Ditto MP11 and CP4, they have nothing to do with Fatar.


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## Shad0wLandsUK

Looks like it is back to the LMK2+ or the LMK4+ for me then
I know you can order them to have TP/40WOOD


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## KerrySmith

whiskers said:


> But he's saying the mk2 already felt softer/spongier than the mk1 which already took 2 years of demo abuse , not stiffer, so makes you wonder how mk2 will hold up



I do equate "Stiff" with "Spongy and Squishy". Basically the same thing for me. What I like in a "weighted" "piano" action is still an extremely easy, fast travel on the key down to the bed. Kind of a organ responsiveness with a bit of "weight" under the key, but not necessarily a lot of "friction" and "resistance". If I play "light"/low-velocity, I want to feel a bit of the resistance, but I want to be able to play fast and high-velocity parts with speed and responsiveness. But I only usually find this after (some) keyboards have been "broken-in" for a bit.


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## Headlands

KerrySmith said:


> I do equate "Stiff" with "Spongy and Squishy". Basically the same thing for me. What I like in a "weighted" "piano" action is still an extremely easy, fast travel on the key down to the bed. Kind of a organ responsiveness with a bit of "weight" under the key, but not necessarily a lot of "friction" and "resistance". If I play "light"/low-velocity, I want to feel a bit of the resistance, but I want to be able to play fast and high-velocity parts with speed and responsiveness. But I only usually find this after (some) keyboards have been "broken-in" for a bit.



Agreed. I could be wrong but I bet you won't like the S88 mk2, for the same reasons I don't. It's both heavier/slower travel-wise and spongier at the same time.


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## alfredd

What about this video?


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## Iostream

I got one yesterday. After years of using a Yamaha CP-33. I will say that I prefer the keybed on the Yamaha, but I find the NI keybed plenty usable. It was a valid trade off for the integration and control options for me. I am no great pianist, but the velocity curves are decent, and I don't have trouble getting what I intend into the DAW with this keybed. The other controls and wheels feel solid, the screens are useful, the DAW integration with Cubase 9.5 required no setup, it just works. My biggest issue was getting the old Yamaha FC3 sustain pedal working since it is a continuous control instead of just a switch, but even that is working perfectly now. While I would certainly pay more for a better keybed, it wasn't an option, and I find this a decent enough option that as a whole the controller is a massive upgrade. Walking into a store and feeling the keybed is one thing, but hooking it up to your system and seeing how it fits into your workflow is something else, perhaps others will find the tradeoff worth while as well.


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## steveo42

alfredd said:


> What about this video?




That's awful.


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## Headlands

Iostream said:


> I got one yesterday. After years of using a Yamaha CP-33. I will say that I prefer the keybed on the Yamaha, but I find the NI keybed plenty usable. It was a valid trade off for the integration and control options for me. I am no great pianist, but the velocity curves are decent, and I don't have trouble getting what I intend into the DAW with this keybed. The other controls and wheels feel solid, the screens are useful, the DAW integration with Cubase 9.5 required no setup, it just works. My biggest issue was getting the old Yamaha FC3 sustain pedal working since it is a continuous control instead of just a switch, but even that is working perfectly now. While I would certainly pay more for a better keybed, it wasn't an option, and I find this a decent enough option that as a whole the controller is a massive upgrade. Walking into a store and feeling the keybed is one thing, but hooking it up to your system and seeing how it fits into your workflow is something else, perhaps others will find the tradeoff worth while as well.



I'm glad you dig it! That's a great point you make at the end.


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## Headlands

steveo42 said:


> That's awful.



Yeah -- I've read some other posts about this.


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## Headlands

Iostream said:


> I got one yesterday. After years of using a Yamaha CP-33. I will say that I prefer the keybed on the Yamaha, but I find the NI keybed plenty usable. It was a valid trade off for the integration and control options for me. I am no great pianist, but the velocity curves are decent, and I don't have trouble getting what I intend into the DAW with this keybed. The other controls and wheels feel solid, the screens are useful, the DAW integration with Cubase 9.5 required no setup, it just works. My biggest issue was getting the old Yamaha FC3 sustain pedal working since it is a continuous control instead of just a switch, but even that is working perfectly now. While I would certainly pay more for a better keybed, it wasn't an option, and I find this a decent enough option that as a whole the controller is a massive upgrade. Walking into a store and feeling the keybed is one thing, but hooking it up to your system and seeing how it fits into your workflow is something else, perhaps others will find the tradeoff worth while as well.



Do you find that entering in fast things like drums or synth parts is handled well by it? That's my biggest concern since it felt heavy and spongy when I tried it.


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## whiskers

Iostream said:


> I got one yesterday. After years of using a Yamaha CP-33. I will say that I prefer the keybed on the Yamaha, but I find the NI keybed plenty usable. It was a valid trade off for the integration and control options for me. I am no great pianist, but the velocity curves are decent, and I don't have trouble getting what I intend into the DAW with this keybed. The other controls and wheels feel solid, the screens are useful, the DAW integration with Cubase 9.5 required no setup, it just works. My biggest issue was getting the old Yamaha FC3 sustain pedal working since it is a continuous control instead of just a switch, but even that is working perfectly now. While I would certainly pay more for a better keybed, it wasn't an option, and I find this a decent enough option that as a whole the controller is a massive upgrade. Walking into a store and feeling the keybed is one thing, but hooking it up to your system and seeing how it fits into your workflow is something else, perhaps others will find the tradeoff worth while as well.



Was curious about the screen - did it seem gimmicky (i feel like i'd still be looking at my PC screen) or did it fit well in the workflow. Guess im wondering if this is worth looking at vs another controller/DP. the big thing here would be komplete integration, but i just don't know if it's worth the premium. I do appreciate that they improved DAW control though.


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## steveo42

Headlands said:


> Yeah -- I've read some other posts about this.



Hopefully it's just a bad unit and not systemic.


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## Lee Blaske

My S88 Mk2 arrived yesterday. I have both the original S88 and the new Mk2 side by side, so I can compare them.

One thing I think people need to realize is that there's a break-in period with these keyboards. I haven't been inside an S88 yet, but having been inside other similar keyboard actions, I've noticed that they put a lot of silicone grease on the action parts. I think this really contributes to the "spongy" and viscous feeling that these keyboards have out of the box. OTOH, I've never noticed that on the weighted Korg Kronos keyboard, Yamaha Motifs, or the Kawai VPC1 (all much better actions, IMO).

My original S88 got gentle studio use, only, so it's in excellent condition. Comparing it the the Mk2, the original version seems a bit faster, but also somewhat noisier. But, comparing the note on the extreme hi and low sides of the keyboard (which don't get played as much, and perhaps are not as "broken-in"), the extreme hi and low notes of the original version feel a lot more like the new Mk2 version. So, I really wonder if it's not, in fact, the same Fatar keyboard action in both the new and old S88. If it's different, I don't think it's a lot different. For the moment, I think I prefer the new Mk2 feel, and I think it'll be better after it's been used awhile. It's nowhere near as good, though, as my Kawai VPC1, Kronos or Motif. Those actions are clearly superior. But, IMO, the features on the S88 Mk2 that interface with my DAW and NI instruments make it worth it. In my studio, I have the S88 Mk2 in front of me, and the VPC1 to my left, for when I need to do serious playing. It would really be nice to have a VPC1 quality action in the S88, but we didn't get that. It would be great if NI picked a different action supplier other than Fatar the next time around.

Here are some other things I noticed about the new S88...

1.) I would have thought that the construction would have been similar with just the added screen features, but it appears that NI really did a big re-design of the case (probably to save money). The original case has more metal, and seems to weigh more. The front and back edges of the original are also about 1/4" bigger. The Mk2 does not have end bells. The top part of the Mk2 case is a big one-piece plastic casting. Probably won't make much difference in studio use, but I think the new Mk2 would be more prone to breakage on the road. The original version has end bells with some kind of rubberized padding. If you bashed the end of the old version, you could easily just replace an end bell. Bash the end of the Mk2, and you're going to need a whole new top part of the case. The edges of the new version are also crisply squared off. Looks nice, but more prone to breakage. On the plus side, the connectors are recessed on the Mk2. I also think the Mk2 is easier to grab and pick up since it has sort of a pedestal.

2.) I do like the newer, smaller LED lights on the keyboard. Makes the Mk2 look less like one of those Magic Fingers organs from the seventies.

3.) I like the fact that they went to wheels for pitch bend and modulation, plus an additional touch strip. The wheels feel okay, BUT, they are definitely not at the quality level of those, say, on a Yamaha Motif. The S88 Mk2 wheels feel kind of cheap. They also have kid of a viscous damped feel. Probably a lot of lubricant in those pots, too. Might be faster after they break in. There's also a bit of mechanical scrunch in the modulation wheel (might just be my unit).

4.) I DO like the fact that they made the two pedal inputs similar. Now, they can both support continuous controllers as an option, so you can use both a volume pedal and a continuous sustain pedal (great for piano damper pedals in virtual instruments that respond to continuous control). Also, there are number of parameter selections for configuring the pedal inputs (you need to click the MIDI icon on the stand-alone version of Komplete Kontrol to do this). I'm thinking it's possible that the new Mk2 might work with a wider variety of third party pedals.

5.) The new screens look very nice. Not sure if that's going to change my life, though. I have my big computer monitors right in front of me, so I'll probably continue to do my instrument selection on them.

6.) The feel of the buttons, pots and rotary controllers on the new Mk2 feel the same as the old ones.

So all in all, I think I'm glad I made the switch. NI did not hit it out of the park with the new MK2, but there are some improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the keyboard is like after some break-in. I hope it doesn't get noisier.


----------



## Iostream

Headlands said:


> Do you find that entering in fast things like drums or synth parts is handled well by it? That's my biggest concern since it felt heavy and spongy when I tried it.



I tend to do most of my drumming on Maschine pads for input, but fast synth parts, 16th note bass lines with resonance tied to velocity and I want good control seem just fine. After some more time with it this morning it seems more comfortable than before. I think after so many years of experience with the same keybed on my CP33, this will take some getting used to before it has the same comfort level, but I don't feel that the keybed will hold me back in any way.



whiskers said:


> Was curious about the screen - did it seem gimmicky (i feel like i'd still be looking at my PC screen) or did it fit well in the workflow. Guess im wondering if this is worth looking at vs another controller/DP. the big thing here would be komplete integration, but i just don't know if it's worth the premium. I do appreciate that they improved DAW control though.



The screen is wonderful. Pulling up existing projects, the mixer functionality is actually pretty usable, and it is nice to see things there. The default midi mode on the screen is fairly useless outside of Komplete Kontrol itself, and I didn't use that in my previous projects, but the mixer mode and such put the screens to good use. 
Inside komplete kontrol, the screens make it unnecessary to look at the PC when entering a new track, provided your library is nks compatible. So Spitfire and Heavyocity stuff uses the screen well, as do U-he and Native Instruments products. Loading non nks sample libraries in still makes some use of the screens, but less so. Overall, things are really well laid out. Even when using libraries in VEPro, I can use the screen for mixer mode, etc. It isn't wasted space.


----------



## Lee Blaske

Headlands said:


> Do you find that entering in fast things like drums or synth parts is handled well by it? That's my biggest concern since it felt heavy and spongy when I tried it.



I don't think weighted piano keyboards are good for these things, in general. Synth keyboards are much faster, and drum pads are always better for drumming. Playing one note with two fingers on a keyboard is always kind of awkward (even though there are people who have mastered it).

The actual advantage to the weight in a weighted keyboard is to better handle dynamics with velocity.


----------



## EvilDragon

Lee Blaske said:


> I don't think weighted piano keyboards are good for these things, in general.



If it's a good piano keybed, with triple sensors, it's absolutely not a problem to do drum stuff on them.


----------



## Lee Blaske

EvilDragon said:


> If it's a good piano keybed, with triple sensors, it's absolutely not a problem to do drum stuff on them.



I suppose it depends on how fast you want/need to play. For me, the keys don't snap back fast enough to play quickly. Of course, if you duplicate the instrument in two areas of the keyboard so LH and RH are playing the same instrument with different keys, that helps a lot.


----------



## jononotbono

EvilDragon said:


> If it's a good piano keybed, with triple sensors, it's absolutely not a problem to do drum stuff on them.



How do triple sensors work? Sorry if this is an obvious question and the answer is “there are three of them” haha

Does anyone know of specific controllers with triple sensors? Does the Doepfer LMK4+ have them? I’m guessing the NI88 mk2 does not. I think the Studio Logic Grand has but not sure either.


----------



## EvilDragon

There's a third sensor in between the usual two that are used for detecting velocity. That one allows redetecting velocity before the key is fully up, essentially emulating escapement of actual piano actions.

IIRC Doepfer doesn't have these (but you can special order most anything with them, including Fatar actions that do have triple sensor, like TP40WOOD). Various Rolands have this, VPC1 for sure, Casio PX5-S, etc...


----------



## jononotbono

EvilDragon said:


> There's a third sensor in between the usual two that are used for detecting velocity. That one allows redetecting velocity before the key is fully up, essentially emulating escapement of actual piano actions.
> 
> IIRC Doepfer doesn't have these (but you can special order most anything with them, including Fatar actions that do have triple sensor, like TP40WOOD). Various Rolands have this, VPC1 for sure, Casio PX5-S, etc...



Right this sounds actually amazing. I had no idea I could special order a Doepfer. I think that’s pretty much narrowed my decision after so long of pondering. I think the TP40Wood is the one I’m going for.


----------



## EvilDragon

If only they weren't fuck ugly.


----------



## Headlands

Lee Blaske said:


> I don't think weighted piano keyboards are good for these things, in general. Synth keyboards are much faster, and drum pads are always better for drumming. Playing one note with two fingers on a keyboard is always kind of awkward (even though there are people who have mastered it).
> 
> The actual advantage to the weight in a weighted keyboard is to better handle dynamics with velocity.



As EvilDragon said, the better quality ones are great for doing the fast stuff as well (not as fast as a full synth-style keybed, but notably faster than the S88 when I tried it). For me, the S88 needs to have more of a workhorse/versatile keybed because composers and songwriters play and program tons of different sounds and instruments -- the only problem with the S88 (mark 1 and mark 2) to me is that they both have subpar keybed which is not versatile and actually not very good at either end of the spectrum (real piano or fast synth).

Maybe breaking it in would help, I don't know. I would have been happy to pay more for a high quality keybed, but that's pointless to complain about at this point.


----------



## jononotbono

EvilDragon said:


> If only they weren't fuck ugly.



Haha! They have a charm. I do keep looking at the Studio Logic Grand now I know it has triple sensors. Is it possible to upgrade a NI88 mk2 keybed? Just being curious


----------



## InLight-Tone

jononotbono said:


> Might just get drunk and let the booze make the decision because choosing the right one has got exhausting.



Careful with that strategy Luke. I did that twice selling Cubase Pro, once I was convinced that Ableton Live was for me, another time to go to Reaper. I lost so much money on those transactions, drunkin dreams (saving right now to buy Cubase for the 3rd time!!!)...


----------



## jononotbono

InLight-Tone said:


> Careful with that strategy Luke. I did that twice selling Cubase Pro, once I was convinced that Ableton Live was for me, another time to go to Reaper. I lost so much money on those transactions, drunkin dreams (saving right now to buy Cubase for the 3rd time!!!)...



I’ve been trying to decide on a main 88 weighted controller for about 3 years. I feel I’m getting closer. As for Cubase, you won’t regret it. Again.


----------



## jononotbono

EvilDragon said:


> IIRC Doepfer doesn't have these (but you can special order most anything with them, including Fatar actions that do have triple sensor, like TP40WOOD).



Just to clarify, after speaking to Doepfer, it's not possible for getting a TP40WOOD keyed put into the LMK4+. A quote of a message I'm sure will be fine to share...

"The LMK4+ keybed scanner is incapable to handle triple sensors and because of the mechanical dimensions the TP/40Wood does not fit into the regular LMK4+ cabinet."

Oh well, that's a shame. I guess that's me steering away from the Doepfer.


----------



## funnybear

jononotbono said:


> Oh well, that's a shame. I guess that's me steering away from the Doepfer.



Why not just get the Studiologic SL88 Grand as it has the TP40WOOD action and is quite a bit cheaper than the Doepfer?


----------



## jononotbono

funnybear said:


> Why not just get the Studiologic SL88 Grand as it has the TP40WOOD action and is quite a bit cheaper than the Doepfer?



That is pretty much the plan as of now. I think I'll get a NI S61 mk2 so I can have a synth action and on the rare occasion use the light guide as well. A secondary keyboard. Shame, I so wanted to love the new S88. Nevermind.


----------



## zolhof

Regarding dual vs triple sensor, here's a quick comparison with audio clips.

I wouldn't worry too much about sensors when comparing two manufacturers. For example, we had the Kawai ES110 (dual sensor) and the Casio PX-160 (triple sensor) here at the studio - both decent budget keyboards - and to my fingers the Kawai felt significantly better. Now, within the same manufacturer, that's a whole different story. If money isn't a thing, imho the Kawai MP11 is your best pick for the action alone. Keep in mind that the Kawai is a digital piano at heart, so don't expect faders, knobs, etc. For MIDI purposes, I'd look at the Physis K4, it's a beast.







And just to make you even more confused, check this list of keyboard actions.


----------



## jononotbono

zolhof said:


> Regarding dual vs triple sensor, here's a quick comparison with audio clips.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about sensors when comparing two manufacturers. For example, we had the Kawai ES110 (dual sensor) and the Casio PX-160 (triple sensor) here at the studio - both decent budget keyboards - and to my fingers the Kawai felt significantly better. Now, within the same manufacturer, that's a whole different story. If money isn't a thing, imho the Kawai MP11 is your best pick for the action alone. Keep in mind that the Kawai is a digital piano at heart, so don't expect faders, knobs, etc. For MIDI purposes, I'd look at the Physis K4, it's a beast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And just to make you even more confused, check this list of keyboard actions.



Thanks. I've not considered the Physis K4 yet.


----------



## Lee Blaske

FWIW, I've been playing on my Mk2 for a day, and it already feels better (faster). Maybe it just takes a couple of days of playing to get all that silicone grease out of the way a bit.


----------



## Headlands

Lee Blaske said:


> FWIW, I've been playing on my Mk2 for a day, and it already feels better (faster). Maybe it just takes a couple of days of playing to get all that silicone grease out of the way a bit.



Interesting! Maybe I'll pick one up and try - it's a 30-day guarantee so I can give it that long to see. Might be worth the tradeoff to get the lighting guides and DAW/NI integration.


----------



## Lee Blaske

Lee Blaske said:


> FWIW, I've been playing on my Mk2 for a day, and it already feels better (faster). Maybe it just takes a couple of days of playing to get all that silicone grease out of the way a bit.



Just another update on this... With every passing day, the keyboard is feeling more and more like the original version of the S88. The smooth, damped, quiet, viscous feel is gone. The keyboard is getting faster in the way it responds, but it now has similar mechanical noise to the original S88. I really wish it was quieter, but I guess that's just how these Fatar actions are built.

Sure would be nice if they offered a higher-end model. I'd be willing to pay an extra $1000 to have a keyboard like the one in the Kawai VPC1, or even something that's just as good as the keyboard in a Yamaha Motif or Korg Kronos.


----------



## Headlands

Lee Blaske said:


> Just another update on this... With every passing day, the keyboard is feeling more and more like the original version of the S88. The smooth, damped, quiet, viscous feel is gone. The keyboard is getting faster in the way it responds, but it now has similar mechanical noise to the original S88. I really wish it was quieter, but I guess that's just how these Fatar actions are built.
> 
> Sure would be nice if they offered a higher-end model. I'd be willing to pay an extra $1000 to have a keyboard like the one in the Kawai VPC1, or even something that's just as good as the keyboard in a Yamaha Motif or Korg Kronos.



Thanks for the update. It's just a crap lower end Fatar keybed, as you said -- there's no way around it. I'd be willing to pay more, too, but it is what it is. I'll just need to decide which way to go here.


----------



## EvilDragon

Be it TP100 or TP40 that's not their lower end at all.


----------



## jononotbono

Does anyone know what the exact Keybed is?


----------



## EvilDragon

No official info so far. I guess somebody's gonna tear one up sooner or later.


----------



## Headlands

EvilDragon said:


> Be it TP100 or TP40 that's not their lower end at all.



Gotcha. It's just not terribly good, regardless.


----------



## EvilDragon

Depends on what you need from an action. Both are compromise actions so that different things can be played without breaking your fingers (TP40 especially, is a very good compromise between piano, organ and synth actions). And consindering NI's portfolio, they cannot be going for the most realistic piano action on 88-key, since it's not that it's piano libraries all they offer...


----------



## Headlands

EvilDragon said:


> Depends on what you need from an action. Both are compromise actions so that different things can be played without breaking your fingers (TP40 especially, is a very good compromise between piano, organ and synth actions). And consindering NI's portfolio, they cannot be going for the most realistic piano action on 88-key, since it's not that it's piano libraries all they offer...



I hear you. I think, as I said, that for me it just doesn't do anything that well. I personally don't need/want a totally accurate piano feel, but the clunky mushy feel of the S88 mark 2 was a disappointment when I tried it. I might end up with one because of the other functionality, though...and hope that it lightens up as Lee said it does.


----------



## Geoff Grace

If I correctly recall the discussion at _Keyboard_ magazine's forum, then the assertion was that the new S88 MK2 is too light to contain a T/40, leaving the T/100LR as the most likely keybed.



Geoff Grace said:


> The best guess at _Keyboard_ magazine's forum is that it's the http://www.fatar.com/pages/TP100LR.html (Fatar | TP/100LR)—not exactly a beloved action.


Perhaps I should look more into this to see whether that person was right. 

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Brian2112

Yup. Got mine. Feels mushy. 
But being the nutcase that I am, I like the mush! I think this is the first keyboard I’ve had with aftertouch so I’m jazzed about that. Big screens are great (I’m old and blind now even though I use a 47 inch display.). Works great with Cubase. Very inconsistent and glitchy in VE Pro. Sometimes the browser/mappings work, sometimes not. Bummer no Studio One support yet. 
Also just got a Roland TD17 KVX kit because I was tired of finger drumming anyway.


----------



## Headlands

Brian2112 said:


> Yup. Got mine. Feels mushy.
> But being the nutcase that I am, I like the mush! I think this is the first keyboard I’ve had with aftertouch so I’m jazzed about that. Big screens are great (I’m old and blind now even though I use a 47 inch display.). Works great with Cubase. Very inconsistent and glitchy in VE Pro. Sometimes the browser/mappings work, sometimes not. Bummer no Studio One support yet.
> Also just got a Roland TD17 KVX kit because I was tired of finger drumming anyway.



Thanks for reporting. Got mine on Saturday, am in the studio today to set it up. Not happy about hearing it being glitchy with VE Pro, because that's what all of my Kontakt libraries are in when composing. That really sucks actually. Will report back after I get it hooked up.

I decided to go for it because the tradeoffs seemed worth it...but they 100% need to make it totally VE Pro compatible or it won't be worth it for me. I'll write both NI and VE Pro and make sure that's in the works, otherwise I'll need to send it back.


----------



## Iostream

Headlands said:


> Thanks for reporting. Got mine on Saturday, am in the studio today to set it up. Not happy about hearing it being glitchy with VE Pro, because that's what all of my Kontakt libraries are in when composing. That really sucks actually. Will report back after I get it hooked up.
> 
> I decided to go for it because the tradeoffs seemed worth it...but they 100% need to make it totally VE Pro compatible or it won't be worth it for me. I'll write both NI and VE Pro and make sure that's in the works, otherwise I'll need to send it back.



I have not experienced glitches with VE Pro on the local host, but it doesn't work with slaves. Then again, neither does any other controller in that sense. I would love to see that functionality added, but I am not sure how likely it is to happen.


----------



## jononotbono

Iostream said:


> I have not experienced glitches with VE Pro on the local host, but it doesn't work with slaves. Then again, neither does any other controller in that sense. I would love to see that functionality added, but I am not sure how likely it is to happen.



If VSL added this functionality to VEPro I think you’d see these Kontrollers fly of the shelf (regardless of what the keybed feels like).


----------



## Iostream

jononotbono said:


> If VSL added this functionality to VEPro I think you’d see these Kontrollers fly of the shelf (regardless of what the keybed feels like).



I think it requires code changes from both NI and VSL actually. I am not sure how likely it is to happen, people have been asking since the original controllers came out.


----------



## Headlands

Iostream said:


> I have not experienced glitches with VE Pro on the local host, but it doesn't work with slaves. Then again, neither does any other controller in that sense. I would love to see that functionality added, but I am not sure how likely it is to happen.



Ah, OK. I use mine all local at this point (my computer handles the huge templates great), so hopefully it won't be an issue. I'm really surprised that NI and VI haven't worked the issue out for remote servers though, because VE Pro is kinda used by most composers.


----------



## Iostream

Headlands said:


> Ah, OK. I use mine all local at this point (my computer handles the huge templates great), so hopefully it won't be an issue. I'm really surprised that NI and VI haven't worked the issue out for remote servers though, because VE Pro is kinda used by most composers.



Even in the local host thing, they don't have the track focus issue worked out, and hosting kontakt multis doesn't work as it could. There are a lot of implementation details to work out. I never said it worked optimally, but it isn't glitchy, it is consistent.


----------



## Headlands

Iostream said:


> Even in the local host thing, they don't have the track focus issue worked out, and hosting kontakt multis doesn't work as it could. There are a lot of implementation details to work out. I never said it worked optimally, but it isn't glitchy, it is consistent.



Gotcha. The main thing for me at this point is that the light mapping works decently. By track focus do you mean that it doesn't always display the proper light mapping when changing to different instruments when using VE Pro through, say, Cubase?


----------



## C-Wave

Headlands said:


> Gotcha. The main thing for me at this point is that the light mapping works decently. By track focus do you mean that it doesn't always display the proper light mapping when changing to different instruments when using VE Pro through, say, Cubase?


So here how this works, changing to another track on Cubase (or any other DAW) does NOT update the light guide, you hve to go to the VE Pro track of that instrument and click on the little keybord icon on the top row of kompletel kontrol, i.e. where the instrument is loaded in ***komplete kontrol*** (not Kontakt) which is loaded in VE Pro.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

I dunno, I'm probably a minority here, but I totally dig the S88 keybed (haven't tried the MKII). I even like it better than my Korg Triton. To me, it's not mushy at all. Heck, any weighted controller is going to be somewhat sluggish for certain programming (drums, synths, spic strings, etc), but that's why I have keep a couple of others wired into my setup (Nektar Impact LX88+, M-Audio Keystation).


----------



## Headlands

C-Wave said:


> So here how this works, changing to another track on Cubase (or any other DAW) does NOT update the light guide, you hve to go to the VE Pro track of that instrument and click on the little keybord icon on the top row of kompletel kontrol, i.e. where the instrument is loaded in ***komplete kontrol*** (not Kontakt) which is loaded in VE Pro.



Ahhhh. Well, that sucks. Too much clicking and going to different windows to get a simple thing done when in the middle of composing with tight deadlines.  I work at a super fast pace, so this non-intuitive and click/navigation-heavy method won't work for my flow/speed when I'm using VE Pro.

Oh well, I'll just use it in song production sessions where I have everything in Cubase. Damn, what a major drag -- one of the main reasons I bought it was for the light guides of instruments for key switches, etc. Hopefully the two companies will get together and make it happen through the host with VE Pro.

The keyboard is actually fine, it's better than the one I tried at Guitar Center, so there's that at least. It works fine for drum programming too. And the added touch strip for expression will be nice, too.


----------



## Headlands

Wolfie2112 said:


> I dunno, I'm probably a minority here, but I totally dig the S88 keybed (haven't tried the MKII). I even like it better than my Korg Triton. To me, it's not mushy at all. Heck, any weighted controller is going to be somewhat sluggish for certain programming (drums, synths, spic strings, etc), but that's why I have keep a couple of others wired into my setup (Nektar Impact LX88+, M-Audio Keystation).



It's way better feeling than the one I tried at GC...weird! I don't mind it at all.


----------



## C-Wave

Headlands said:


> It's way better feeling than the one I tried at GC...weird! I don't mind it at all.


I have a MK I (not II) and I don't mind it too. Can you compare what you have in your studio now with MK I? Maybe another visit to that store ?


----------



## Headlands

C-Wave said:


> I have a MK I (not II) and I don't mind it too. Can you compare what you have in your studio now with MK I? Maybe another visit to that store ?



I try to avoid Guitar Center as much as humanly possible, but if I happen to be in that area I can stop by.


----------



## Headlands

jononotbono said:


> If VSL added this functionality to VEPro I think you’d see these Kontrollers fly of the shelf (regardless of what the keybed feels like).



Agreed. It's a useless feature for composers if you use VE Pro and don't enjoy clicking and navigating to VE Pro just to enable the lighting every time you switch to another instrument. I didn't know about that, should have done more research.

I'll see if the rest of what the S88 offers is worth it in order to keep it -- I have 30 days to decide. :-D I'm not so sure it will end up being worth it without this feature working with VE Pro through the host, though -- it's just a plain controller at that point, and there are better-feeling ones out there. The browser is cool but doesn't improve my workflow, personally.


----------



## whiskers

Headlands said:


> It's way better feeling than the one I tried at GC...weird! I don't mind it at all.



Can you expand more on the feel? I'm really debating about trying to sell my MPK88 and pick one of these up. the DAW and Komplete integration seem worth it. MPK88 feels very...thuddy...


----------



## Brian2112

C-Wave said:


> So here how this works, changing to another track on Cubase (or any other DAW) does NOT update the light guide, you hve to go to the VE Pro track of that instrument and click on the little keybord icon on the top row of kompletel kontrol, i.e. where the instrument is loaded in ***komplete kontrol*** (not Kontakt) which is loaded in VE Pro.


Ah. I wondered what that little keyboard icon was for. It’s weird, I had tracks in VE pro that worked with browser/ light guide etc. just fine when I brought them up. Others didn’t. I’ll just click the keyboard icon and see what happens. THanks for that.


----------



## Headlands

Also, for those considering buying: The screens are not touch screens, and the rotary knobs under the screens aren't push buttons...so when you scroll to what you want to load, you can't just push the rotary, you need to push the large dial on the right. It's little things like this that add up when you like to work super fast and are working with very tight deadlines. NI and Steinberg are both quite bad with so many of their software designs in this way, and it seems in some of NI's hardware designs. Might not bother some of you, but if you like things very intuitive and fast, it needs some design changes.


----------



## Headlands

whiskers said:


> Can you expand more on the feel? I'm really debating about trying to sell my MPK88 and pick one of these up. the DAW and Komplete integration seem worth it. MPK88 feels very...thuddy...



Well it's not like the great Yamaha and better Fatar-based controllers I've tried, but it works for me. A little mushy (which apparently goes away), and a little heavy-feeling, but for me I can program drums pretty well and it feels fine for regular playing (I personally don't need something that feels exactly like a piano, though). The dynamics feel good, too.


----------



## EvilDragon

After a bit of thinking... I am not exactly sure if the VEPro thing can be resolved easily, or at all. Why? Because VEPro would need to know which track was selected in the DAW, to know to which of its own tracks it should report focus shift to KK. And then it depends on how you did your MIDI routing in the DAW, too... It doesn't seem feasible. There's no way VEPro can know which track you've focused in your DAW. And then - which DAW is it that you're using? Can of worms right there - there'd need to be talks not just between NI and Vienna, but also _all the DAW vendors as well_! And that's probably never happening.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm not sure I am 




Headlands said:


> so when you scroll to what you want to load, you can't just push the rotary, you need to push the large dial on the right.



Or you just use the large dial for scrolling through patches all the way through, then you're always on it to push it to load stuff.


----------



## Headlands

EvilDragon said:


> After a bit of thinking... I am not exactly sure if the VEPro thing can be resolved easily, or at all. Why? Because VEPro would need to know which track was selected in the DAW, to know to which of its own tracks it should report focus shift to KK. And then it depends on how you did your MIDI routing in the DAW, too... It doesn't seem feasible. There's no way VEPro can know which track you've focused in your DAW. And then - which DAW is it that you're using? Can of worms right there - there'd need to be talks not just between NI and Vienna, but also _all the DAW vendors as well_! And that's probably never happening.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm not sure I am



You could very well be right, indeed. I think it's important for composers that use VE Pro to know this before buying.




EvilDragon said:


> Or you just use the large dial for scrolling through patches all the way through, then you're always on it to push it to load stuff.



Weird - that part of it wasn't working at all when I first put the S88 up, but now it is. Thanks for posting -- I rebooted and now it shows all that stuff on the right screen.


----------



## procreative

There is a way to update the focus using the KK Instance button, by clicking it you can select the correct KK instance with the big knob. But the big drawback is that it brings the VEP Server project to the front, so you have to go back to your DAW after. Cannot seem to find a way of stopping it auto raising VEP.

I did find a way of rationalising usage of KK in my DAW when using Sonokinetic phrase libraries. They all share the same Light Guide and Smart Controls, so I added a KK patch for the first one, then expanded it to "Edit View" which shows up the Kontakt library.

You can then add extra Kontakt patches on separate midi channels. By using a multitimbral track you can play each midi channel and the Light Guide/Controls stick to the first proper KK patch.

But I tried every possible way of linking to them in VEP including hosting VEP inside a KK plugin and a Kontakt patch in that or tried using the external midi ports in VEP to try to communicate with the keyboard.

The only other thing that might be possible is using Osculator to send a command to the keyboard on track selection. But I don see what that command could be (yet).

I use a feature in Osculator with Logic, there is a command sent called Logic/Track/Name and basically every track name gets logged in Osculator. So if you have a fixed template or patches for Logic using fixed names, you can grab those in Osculator and then issue a command. So if there were some kind of midi command message that had the same effect as clicking the keyboard icon or choosing an Instance there might be a way to do it?


----------



## steveo42

Tried the MK2 in the war zone, also known as GC, over the weekend. Spongy is a good description but overall, it's easy to get used to IMHO.. A few minutes of playing and it was like an old friend to me. I have an RD-2000 and RD-150 if that's of any use in comparing. One thing I will say is at least to me, it does not feel cheap at all considering the price and I think I would prefer a little sponge to noisy clacking which in my engineering mind says plastic on plastic or worse metal, which means wear over time. I'm suspecting it might break in nicely over time so maybe too much silicone lubricant applied at the factory? I dunno. Give it a couple of months and check the demo units in GC, which get the snot beat out of them, and see how they are doing. Make sure it wasn't just placed on the floor though. Overall, looks like a good deal to me.


----------



## Headlands

steveo42 said:


> Tried the MK2 in the war zone, also known as GC, over the weekend. Spongy is a good description but overall, it's easy to get used to IMHO.. A few minutes of playing and it was like an old friend to me. I have an RD-2000 and RD-150 if that's of any use in comparing. One thing I will say is at least to me, it does not feel cheap at all considering the price and I think I would prefer a little sponge to noisy clacking which in my engineering mind says plastic on plastic or worse metal, which means wear over time. I'm suspecting it might break in nicely over time so maybe too much silicone lubricant applied at the factory? I dunno. Give it a couple of months and check the demo units in GC, which get the snot beat out of them, and see how they are doing. Make sure it wasn't just placed on the floor though. Overall, looks like a good deal to me.



I agree, though when I played it at GC originally it felt truly bad. The one I just received from Sweetwater feels much better, straight out of the box.


----------



## whiskers

Still on the fence about this one. Just got it. Keybed is OK, hoped for a lot better. Has a bit of a spongy, damped feeling (memory foam anyone?) rather than a hammer strike actuation feel (for want of a better word)

Just fired up the Komplete Kontrol software for the first time tonight, thing seems like a mess. Cant scale the window on the PC, and the way you browse the instruments seems like a pain. Probably just not used to it yet. IDK.


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> Still on the fence about this one. Just got it. Keybed is OK, hoped for a lot better. Has a bit of a spongy, damped feeling (memory foam anyone?) than a hammer strike actuation feel (for want of a better word)
> 
> Just fired up the Komplete Kontrol software for the first time tonight, thing seems like a mess. Cant scale the window on the PC, and the way you browse the instruments seems like a pain. Probably just not used to it yet. IDK.


I hate the KK plug-in with a passion. (I’m on a Mac.) I only use it to make changes to splits, lights, etc. on my KK S61 mk II, never to host other VSTs.


----------



## whiskers

jbuhler said:


> I hate the KK plug-in with a passion. (I’m on a Mac.) I only use it to make changes to splits, lights, etc. on my KK S61 mk II, never to host other VSTs.



will non NKS instruments still show up in Komplete Kontrol?


----------



## Lee Blaske

whiskers said:


> Still on the fence about this one. Just got it. Keybed is OK, hoped for a lot better. Has a bit of a spongy, damped feeling (memory foam anyone?) than a hammer strike actuation feel (for want of a better word)



Not sure if you'll like it more or less, but it'll feel quite a bit different after it's broken in. If you've ever been inside these Fatar actions, there's a big glop of silicone lube on the pivot points. That's what gives it the damped, memory foam feel. As you use the keyboard, a lot of that lube will be moved aside, and it'll feel less damped. Then, after you use it more, the mechanical sound of the action will become a bit louder. I'm not the biggest fan of the way Fatar builds anything, but I do like the way the S88 interfaces with Kontakt. I just wish NI would buy their actions from Kawai, Roland, Kong or Yamaha (definitely not Nord, though... Nord uses Fatar actions).


----------



## whiskers

Lee Blaske said:


> Not sure if you'll like it more or less, but it'll feel quite a bit different after it's broken in. If you've ever been inside these Fatar actions, there's a big glop of silicone lube on the pivot points. That's what gives it the damped, memory foam feel. As you use the keyboard, a lot of that lube will be moved aside, and it'll feel less damped. Then, after you use it more, the mechanical sound of the action will become a bit louder. I'm not the biggest fan of the way Fatar builds anything, but I do like the way the S88 interfaces with Kontakt. I just wish NI would buy their actions from Kawai, Roland, Kong or Yamaha (definitely not Nord, though... Nord uses Fatar actions).



Interesting. I did like how quiet it was, it'd be a shame if it got loud and clunky.

any tips for not getting fed up with KK software? I just want to be able to browse through my instruments like in the library tab of kontakt, I hate that menu where you choose keys, strings, synths, then a style, etc. lol. I'll spend some more time with it tomorrow.


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> will non NKS instruments still show up in Komplete Kontrol?


Yes, load non NKS instruments through "Files." I think you can then put them some place that they load similar to Quickload in Kontakt, but I never use the KK software to host libraries so I don't remember how to do it. I only use it to map the keyboard splits, knobs, buttons, etc. I like the keyboard, though I don't like how closed the MKII is—they took away Mackey support so it only works well with supported DAWS and the transport and navigation keys on the keyboard just taunt you with their inoperability if you use a DAW that isn't supported.


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> any tips for not getting fed up with KK software? I just want to be able to browse through my instruments like in the library tab of kontakt, I hate that menu where you choose keys, strings, synths, then a style, etc. lol. I'll spend some more time with it tomorrow.


You can do this. Press "Browser." The knobs under the screens will then allow you to navigate among your libraries, and patches. Some of the libraries work better than others at this. Right now mine doesn't seem to be playing the previews. I probably turned it off at some point and now can't remember how to turn it back on...


----------



## Headlands

whiskers said:


> Still on the fence about this one. Just got it. Keybed is OK, hoped for a lot better. Has a bit of a spongy, damped feeling (memory foam anyone?) rather than a hammer strike actuation feel (for want of a better word)
> 
> Just fired up the Komplete Kontrol software for the first time tonight, thing seems like a mess. Cant scale the window on the PC, and the way you browse the instruments seems like a pain. Probably just not used to it yet. IDK.



Yeah, the Komplete Kontrol thing is a bit of a pain because it requires loading two things instead of one -- i.e., I need to first load Kontrol, then the instrument I want. I wish it would simply communicate with compatible plugins directly instead of having to go through another plugin. Also, it doesn't work through VE Pro, which really sucks; I know it would be extremely difficult to make that happen, but for some reason I had thought that's what it would do (my mistake for not researching better). NI is often fiddly/clunky with a lot of their software GUIs...that's just the way it is with both them and Steinberg.

So, I mostly can't use the keyboard light mapping for that reason. And browsing in Cubase/Kontakt is still faster for me than using the onboard browser on the S88 or their Kontrol plugin.

But I have gotten to like the keyboard just fine and will keep it. I dig the expression pad, and it feels like a quality piece of hardware overall. Maybe we'll see some improvements in the future with the things I've mentioned...!


----------



## whiskers

Headlands said:


> Yeah, the Komplete Kontrol thing is a bit of a pain because it requires loading two things instead of one -- i.e., I need to first load Kontrol, then the instrument I want. I wish it would simply communicate with compatible plugins directly instead of having to go through another plugin. Also, it doesn't work through VE Pro, which really sucks; I know it would be extremely difficult to make that happen, but for some reason I had thought that's what it would do (my mistake for not researching better). NI is often fiddly/clunky with a lot of their software GUIs...that's just the way it is with both them and Steinberg.
> 
> So, I mostly can't use the keyboard light mapping for that reason. And browsing in Cubase/Kontakt is still faster for me than using the onboard browser on the S88 or their Kontrol plugin.
> 
> But I have gotten to like the keyboard just fine and will keep it. I dig the expression pad, and it feels like a quality piece of hardware overall. Maybe we'll see some improvements in the future with the things I've mentioned...!


That's basically where I am with it too. I'm OK with the action, and do like the hardware overall, I just think it would be doubly as good if we could see/control the instrument and light mapping directly from konakt. I just want to go in Cubase and add a konakt instrument that way.

Assuming the hardware on the SL88 Studio or grand was as good, I suppose it would make a tough choice. The main reason I chose this was for the integration, but that's much clunkier than I had hoped. Ah well.


----------



## jbuhler

whiskers said:


> That's basically where I am with it too. I'm OK with the action, and do like the hardware overall, I just think it would be doubly as good if we could see/control the instrument and light mapping directly from konakt. I just want to go in Cubase and add a konakt instrument that way.
> 
> Assuming the hardware on the SL88 Studio or grand was as good, I suppose it would make a tough choice. The main reason I chose this was for the integration, but that's much clunkier than I had hoped. Ah well.


I have the S61 mk2 and I've done some mapping of lights and knobs to the instruments I use a lot (and Spitfire, for instance, uses a pretty standard set of CCs that means I can have a Spitfire preset). I also set up some keyboard splits for working with multiple instruments in different channels. (It took NI almost a year after it first released the mk2 keyboards to get this functionality, however.) I've also mapped the buttons along the top to DAW capabilities since I don't use them for the KK software. 

In Logic and a few other DAWs, the transport and page navigation are all nicely integrated, but if you use a DAW the keyboard doesn't support those buttons are useless. I do wish the keyboard had a few sliders, and I've taken to adding a Korg NanoKontrol Studio, which fits neatly in an open space on top of the S61 mk2, in order to run Studio One and add sliders.


----------



## whiskers

jbuhler said:


> I have the S61 mk2 and I've done some mapping of lights and knobs to the instruments I use a lot (and Spitfire, for instance, uses a pretty standard set of CCs that means I can have a Spitfire preset). I also set up some keyboard splits for working with multiple instruments in different channels. (It took NI almost a year after it first released the mk2 keyboards to get this functionality, however.) I've also mapped the buttons along the top to DAW capabilities since I don't use them for the KK software.
> 
> In Logic and a few other DAWs, the transport and page navigation are all nicely integrated, but if you use a DAW the keyboard doesn't support those buttons are useless. I do wish the keyboard had a few sliders, and I've taken to adding a Korg NanoKontrol Studio, which fits neatly in an open space on top of the S61 mk2, in order to run Studio One and add sliders.


Thanks for the thoughts.

RE: the sliders. I agree. Seems it would be really simple to add 4-10 sliders, and not cost very much. You have space to stick 5 or 6 on there easy.


----------



## ChanceD11

Lee Blaske said:


> My S88 Mk2 arrived yesterday. I have both the original S88 and the new Mk2 side by side, so I can compare them.
> 
> One thing I think people need to realize is that there's a break-in period with these keyboards. I haven't been inside an S88 yet, but having been inside other similar keyboard actions, I've noticed that they put a lot of silicone grease on the action parts. I think this really contributes to the "spongy" and viscous feeling that these keyboards have out of the box. OTOH, I've never noticed that on the weighted Korg Kronos keyboard, Yamaha Motifs, or the Kawai VPC1 (all much better actions, IMO).
> 
> My original S88 got gentle studio use, only, so it's in excellent condition. Comparing it the the Mk2, the original version seems a bit faster, but also somewhat noisier. But, comparing the note on the extreme hi and low sides of the keyboard (which don't get played as much, and perhaps are not as "broken-in"), the extreme hi and low notes of the original version feel a lot more like the new Mk2 version. So, I really wonder if it's not, in fact, the same Fatar keyboard action in both the new and old S88. If it's different, I don't think it's a lot different. For the moment, I think I prefer the new Mk2 feel, and I think it'll be better after it's been used awhile. It's nowhere near as good, though, as my Kawai VPC1, Kronos or Motif. Those actions are clearly superior. But, IMO, the features on the S88 Mk2 that interface with my DAW and NI instruments make it worth it. In my studio, I have the S88 Mk2 in front of me, and the VPC1 to my left, for when I need to do serious playing. It would really be nice to have a VPC1 quality action in the S88, but we didn't get that. It would be great if NI picked a different action supplier other than Fatar the next time around.
> 
> Here are some other things I noticed about the new S88...
> 
> 1.) I would have thought that the construction would have been similar with just the added screen features, but it appears that NI really did a big re-design of the case (probably to save money). The original case has more metal, and seems to weigh more. The front and back edges of the original are also about 1/4" bigger. The Mk2 does not have end bells. The top part of the Mk2 case is a big one-piece plastic casting. Probably won't make much difference in studio use, but I think the new Mk2 would be more prone to breakage on the road. The original version has end bells with some kind of rubberized padding. If you bashed the end of the old version, you could easily just replace an end bell. Bash the end of the Mk2, and you're going to need a whole new top part of the case. The edges of the new version are also crisply squared off. Looks nice, but more prone to breakage. On the plus side, the connectors are recessed on the Mk2. I also think the Mk2 is easier to grab and pick up since it has sort of a pedestal.
> 
> 2.) I do like the newer, smaller LED lights on the keyboard. Makes the Mk2 look less like one of those Magic Fingers organs from the seventies.
> 
> 3.) I like the fact that they went to wheels for pitch bend and modulation, plus an additional touch strip. The wheels feel okay, BUT, they are definitely not at the quality level of those, say, on a Yamaha Motif. The S88 Mk2 wheels feel kind of cheap. They also have kid of a viscous damped feel. Probably a lot of lubricant in those pots, too. Might be faster after they break in. There's also a bit of mechanical scrunch in the modulation wheel (might just be my unit).
> 
> 4.) I DO like the fact that they made the two pedal inputs similar. Now, they can both support continuous controllers as an option, so you can use both a volume pedal and a continuous sustain pedal (great for piano damper pedals in virtual instruments that respond to continuous control). Also, there are number of parameter selections for configuring the pedal inputs (you need to click the MIDI icon on the stand-alone version of Komplete Kontrol to do this). I'm thinking it's possible that the new Mk2 might work with a wider variety of third party pedals.
> 
> 5.) The new screens look very nice. Not sure if that's going to change my life, though. I have my big computer monitors right in front of me, so I'll probably continue to do my instrument selection on them.
> 
> 6.) The feel of the buttons, pots and rotary controllers on the new Mk2 feel the same as the old ones.
> 
> So all in all, I think I'm glad I made the switch. NI did not hit it out of the park with the new MK2, but there are some improvements. It'll be interesting to see what the keyboard is like after some break-in. I hope it doesn't get noisier.



Thanks for your review! I also have the Komplete Kontrol 88 going on a year or so now. Has yours broken in yet? I love the screen interface but can't stand the super heavy action. I wonder what your experience has been with the keyboard these last couple years. Hoping it will eventually feel broken in.


----------



## X-Bassist

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Previous one was said to be TP100, which makes sense given the weight. It's not heavy enough to have a TP/40 in it. I've pretty much just accepted that unless you are paying about $2k and up, something that approximates a real piano isn't going to happen. The Yamaha CP4's can be found under $2k, also the Roland RD-2000. If you want something that is as good as it gets? That's the Kawai MP11. It is better than a lot of acoustic pianos. Not high end grands, but shockingly good.


Any idea the difference between the Kawai MP11 and the Kawai MP11SE?


----------



## Thundercat

Headlands said:


> I'll be interested to hear what others think. Some may love it - who knows.


For me it is perfectly acceptable. I also own a Kawaii MP9 Stage Piano. I guess I’m not that picky but the NI keyboard works great for me.

I am also a pianist.

mike


----------



## Levon

What is quality of the NI S88 like? I'm debating whether to go for the NI S88 or perhaps go with a combination of the new Roland A88 midi keyboard and a NI S49.


----------



## Lee Blaske

Update on my S88 MkII... As I expected, now that it's broken in and the glops of silicone lubricant have dispersed, the action feels faster, but it's more rattle-y. It's an okay keyboard, definitely NOT a great keyboard. I do like the specific features (especially the LED lights to indicate where the key mapping is, and the number of input controls).

One weird quirk which I have yet to resolve deals with the MIDI assignment in Komplete Kontrol. It keeps wanting to revert back to a stock pedal/footswitch MIDI assignment. I build and save a new template in the stand-alone app, but from time to time, it just vanishes, and I don't know why. Then I have to open up the app again (and wait for the time-consuming scan), and set up the MIDI assignments again. Sure wish I could find a way to lock those things in.

Anyway, because the keyboard is not a great keyboard, I have it in front of me and use it for most general things. On my left, though, I have a Kawai VPC1 88 key controller which totally blows away the S88 MkII for playing pianistically with velocity. The S88 MkII velocity response is not that predictable, whereas the VPC1 is spot on. Huge difference if you're a pianist. On top of that, I also have an Arturia Matrix Brute which has a nice, fast, synth keyboard for that style of playing. Between the three, this covers all the bases for me. 

I REALLY wish the S88 MkII had a much higher quality action (e.g. on par with the weighted keyboard in something like the Korg Kronos or Yamaha Motif). It's just not. Fatar just doesn't make anything on that level.


----------



## GNP

As long as I'm dealing with MIDI samples being triggered, and it depends on the sampling of the library itself, I'll try not to pretend to be a connoiseur of "truly great-feeling" MIDI controllers.

If I can even get a decent middle ground between the controller and the quality of the sampling library I'm playing with, I'm happy. Other than that, I often find myself going in and manually adjusting the velocities of the notes I performed and recorded, no matter how immaculately I performed the part!


----------



## Lee Blaske

Levon said:


> What is quality of the NI S88 like? I'm debating whether to go for the NI S88 or perhaps go with a combination of the new Roland A88 midi keyboard and a NI S49.



That would be an option, but you're really defeating the purpose of all the LED indicator lights if you do that. If you're using a lot of NKS instruments, having all of that key switching mapped and color coded is a real benefit.

Regarding Roland, their actions are okay, but I prefer the higher end Korg and Yamaha actions (too bad they don't make 88 key controllers). Also regarding the A88 (the new one, and the predecessor), they are quite long. I had actually considered buying one at one point as a second keyboard for my Korg Kronos (for live playing), and when an A88 was put into a case, there was no convenient way to fit one in my car (although the length of an 88 key Korg Kronos in a case was no problem). The A88 is just a LONG keyboard with all the extra length on the left side.


----------



## Lee Blaske

GNP said:


> As long as I'm dealing with MIDI samples being triggered, and it depends on the sampling of the library itself, I'll try not to pretend to be a connoiseur of "truly great-feeling" MIDI controllers.
> 
> If I can even get a decent middle ground between the controller and the quality of the sampling library I'm playing with, I'm happy. Other than that, I often find myself going in and manually adjusting the velocities of the notes I performed and recorded, no matter how immaculately I performed the part!



Yeah, you can always come back and fix things. The problem, though, is that with a keyboard like the S88 MkII, if you immaculately perform the part, the MIDI capture of your performance might not be all that immaculate. Note velocity, and resultant sound of individual notes might be louder or softer than what you actually played (notes might pop out, unmusically). If you're a halfway decent player, your playing will sound better on a better, more accurate keyboard. It's more than just enjoying the quality of a nicely made product.


----------



## SupremeFist

Lee Blaske said:


> Yeah, you can always come back and fix things. The problem, though, is that with a keyboard like the S88 MkII, if you immaculately perform the part, the MIDI capture of your performance might not be all that immaculate. Note velocity, and resultant sound of individual notes might be louder or softer than what you actually played (notes might pop out, unmusically). If you're a halfway decent player, your playing will sound better on a better, more accurate keyboard. It's more than just enjoying the quality of a nicely made product.


I have to edit piano performances much, much less using a Roland FP10 as controller than when I was abroad last year working on a rented S88 (mark I). Still have to edit them a bit, obviously, but the Roland is just hugely better from the first pass.


----------



## Thundercat

Lee Blaske said:


> Update on my S88 MkII... As I expected, now that it's broken in and the glops of silicone lubricant have dispersed, the action feels faster, but it's more rattle-y. It's an okay keyboard, definitely NOT a great keyboard. I do like the specific features (especially the LED lights to indicate where the key mapping is, and the number of input controls).
> 
> One weird quirk which I have yet to resolve deals with the MIDI assignment in Komplete Kontrol. It keeps wanting to revert back to a stock pedal/footswitch MIDI assignment. I build and save a new template in the stand-alone app, but from time to time, it just vanishes, and I don't know why. Then I have to open up the app again (and wait for the time-consuming scan), and set up the MIDI assignments again. Sure wish I could find a way to lock those things in.
> 
> Anyway, because the keyboard is not a great keyboard, I have it in front of me and use it for most general things. On my left, though, I have a Kawai VPC1 88 key controller which totally blows away the S88 MkII for playing pianistically with velocity. The S88 MkII velocity response is not that predictable, whereas the VPC1 is spot on. Huge difference if you're a pianist. On top of that, I also have an Arturia Matrix Brute which has a nice, fast, synth keyboard for that style of playing. Between the three, this covers all the bases for me.
> 
> I REALLY wish the S88 MkII had a much higher quality action (e.g. on par with the weighted keyboard in something like the Korg Kronos or Yamaha Motif). It's just not. Fatar just doesn't make anything on that level.


At random, my S88 mk2 loses the pedal assignment. Which means it doesn’t work. Then I have to go and set it up again through Komplete Kontrol.

soooooooo annoying when I just want to sit down and play or record.

However - I DO like keyboard action, and I’m a piano player too. But I’ll admit it’s not as good as my Kawaii MP9.


----------



## HeliaVox

I think I read over on the NI forums that the pedal assigment problems are a known bug. Who knows when it will be sorted, however.


----------



## IFM

I too ha the vanishing pedal assignment problem. I actually kind of like the action and find the velocity to be quite accurate. I had a KL88 and a KL88 II and the latter was terrible in action and it had a completely random velocity response so I got rid of it. The MKI still lives as a spare controller but it is klunky so when I got the s88 II it was a breath of fresh air...but yes for the money it should have been made of metal and not plastic. My trackball doesn’t sit flat on it so I keep a trimmed thin pad underneath.


----------



## Thundercat

HeliaVox said:


> I think I read over on the NI forums that the pedal assigment problems are a known bug. Who knows when it will be sorted, however.


When I reached out to NI about it, they too said they knew about it. Then they invited me to be a beta tester.

I’d rather they just fix it, if they are aware of it.


----------



## jbuhler

Lee Blaske said:


> One weird quirk which I have yet to resolve deals with the MIDI assignment in Komplete Kontrol. It keeps wanting to revert back to a stock pedal/footswitch MIDI assignment. I build and save a new template in the stand-alone app, but from time to time, it just vanishes, and I don't know why. Then I have to open up the app again (and wait for the time-consuming scan), and set up the MIDI assignments again. Sure wish I could find a way to lock those things in.


This happens occasionally to me on my S61 mk2. I keep a copy of the Komplete Kontrol Mk2 settings.dat file and restore it whenever it loses its presets, which happens about once a month. 









Managing KOMPLETE KONTROL MK2 MIDI Templates


The KOMPLETE KONTROL MK2 keyboard allows to create and store individual MIDI Templates for different setups. Sometimes it is useful to create a backup of your MIDI Templates, e.g. if you have to re...




support.native-instruments.com


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK

Thundercat said:


> At random, my S88 mk2 loses the pedal assignment. Which means it doesn’t work. Then I have to go and set it up again through Komplete Kontrol.
> 
> soooooooo annoying when I just want to sit down and play or record.
> 
> However - I DO like keyboard action, and I’m a piano player too. But I’ll admit it’s not as good as my Kawaii MP9.


My friend has a Kawaii, but they are super heavy aren't they?!
So no good, since I want to get a desk with a keyboard shelf that will hold considerably less than a one tonne-truck


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

Using NKS has provided a monumental improvement to my workflow. I have invested a lot of time with the manual and YouTube videos to learn all its features, and create my own templates. I have spent some money on Freelance Soundlabs templates so I can use NKS with Omnisphere, Falcon, M1, and dozens of others. For example, with M1 I could sort by tags and audition sounds without loading anything--it was never an issue for me that the old GUI was so awful unless I was programming. (I plan to make a video about the FS templates someday.) 

For the record, the light guides work perfectly with many instruments that don't have NKS, if you load them in KK. Not just Kontakt instruments, either. For example, the light guides on Karoryfer's Sforzando Hadziha works fine. And with many non-NKS products all the knobs are mapped too. 

It doesn't have to be a hassle to load instruments within KK. I put the instruments I use most in de-activated templates and use Cubase to copy the tracks into my project. You could also save them as track presets.

I would never consider working without NKS, and I want the NKS 88 keys because that's the most keys they happen to sell. If NI sold a controller that had over a 100 keys I'd get that. There are lots of libraries where you can't see all the keyswitches on 88 keys. 

For the above reason, MKII 88 is my only choice, until NI comes out with something better. Does it have the best keyboard action I've ever owned or played in a music store? I don't think so, but I adjust the velocity curve within the software, and make similar adjustments in software like Keyscape, Artvista, KeySuite, etc. I'm satisfied. It's my normal.

But I have never used a MIDI controller just for piano or piano-like keyboards. Those kinds of instruments represent only a small part of what I play into Cubase, and a weighted piano action is not necessarily the best way to play drums, or a saxophone, or even an organ.

I have two ROLI devices sitting on my MKII 88. The little Lightpad square can be used in lots of ways: it can be configured as an XY pad or pads, or sliders, but also, when I'm playing a frame drum, I can plot out the samples of the drum in the positions they have on the drum itself. This to me is more intuitive than using a keyboard, and I get more velocity sensitivity out of the lightpad. The same samples sound better on it. (It cost me $100 in the BF sale.) I do similar things with my cheapie ROLI Seaboard block. Both of these sit on my mkii all the time, always ready for use. I also have a dinky IK Controller in my desk that I sometimes bring out when it is useful.

I'm always experimenting with what does the best job for me. Maybe I'll buy a wind controller someday.


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## DS_Joost

Nathanael Iversen said:


> Previous one was said to be TP100, which makes sense given the weight. It's not heavy enough to have a TP/40 in it. I've pretty much just accepted that unless you are paying about $2k and up, something that approximates a real piano isn't going to happen. The Yamaha CP4's can be found under $2k, also the Roland RD-2000. If you want something that is as good as it gets? That's the Kawai MP11. It is better than a lot of acoustic pianos. Not high end grands, but shockingly good.



I am not an expert but I think my Studiologic actually comes pretty damn close.


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## Laptoprabbit

DS_Joost said:


> I am not an expert but I think my Studiologic actually comes pretty damn close.


I'm considering Studiologic - could I ask which one?

Edit: Specifically thinking about Numa Compact 2 vs SL88 Studio if anyone has those.


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## Lee Blaske

BTW, another update on my S88MkII...

I've had the continual vanishing pedal assignment problem since I got it, but that's nothing new. Sometimes it keeps the assignment, sometimes I have to launch Komplete Kontrol and reassign. Glad to hear others are having the same issue and it's not just me.

But, my S88MkII just developed some new problems. It would sometimes jump pitch. And an additional problem, the range of the pitch bend wheel has become restricted. All of the bending, up and down, happens in the first quarter inch or so of wheel movement. The rest of the travel does nothing. Makes it really impossible to use.

So, just to check things out, I opened it up. FWIW, ALL of the screws on the bottom and in the side bell need to come out with the exception of the four holding the rubber feet on and two of them in the back that are holding some plastic spacers.

Once inside, I discovered one of the problems... The middle wire of the potentiometer for the pitch bend was NEVER SOLDERED! It was just laying in the connection. Very shoddy workmanship. Soldering that wire seems to have taken care of the sudden pitch changes, but not the control travel problem. I checked to make sure all connectors were secure. Not worth troubleshooting this any more, because I don't think there's a way to get parts from NI.

Anyway, I wish I could unsee what I saw inside the S88MkII. The construction and the build of the action is HORRIBLE! This is a disposable piece of junk. Huge glops of lubricant slathered over the action. And, if you ever needed to repair a key, you have to completely disassemble the instrument to get at it. If you have one of these, play it lightly to be SURE you don't break a key! Way too much plastic in this instrument.

Honestly, I really liked the idea of NKS, and the LEDs indicated key switching. Very handy. I owned the original S88, and didn't like the action on it. I upgraded to the MKII hoping it would be an improvement. It was slightly nicer, but not great. It has the typical inconsistency of velocity from key to key of Fatar keyboards. No way around it. This is an inferior action.

I've emailed and gotten an initial response from NI support. It's out of warranty. I imagine I'm going to have to send it in for repair (and that's going to be fairly expensive for a large instrument). Waiting to hear on that.

I don't think, though, that I can ever go back to having that instrument front and center in my studio (I have some other nice options, but obviously, without NKS). NKS is a great idea, but if it requires a sub-standard key action, it has no place in a professional studio.

So currently, I've got my Korg KronosX 88 key front and center. No NKS, but the action is ENORMOUSLY better. I can see, now, that I was really cutting the S88MkII a lot of slack, because I really wanted to have the NKS capabilities (I've got a lot of Kontakt libraries).

If the S88MkII is out of the picture, I'm kind of at a loss for what else I might want, in terms of a MIDI controller. I DEFINITELY don't want anything else with a Fatar action (that rules out Doepfer, StudioLogic, NI, Nord, and a bunch of others). I really like the high-end Korg action, the high-end Yamaha action and the weighted Kawai action. Unfortunately, Yamaha and Korg don't make 88 key weighted controllers. The Kawai VPC1 is great, but has no MIDI controls or pedal inputs, and is too tall to put in front of a screen.

Maybe MIDI 2.0 is going to bring a whole new round of options. The Roland A88MkII looks like a well-made keyboard (with the way I have things positioned in my setup, though, I'm a little concerned about the thickness of the case - the key tops would be higher off of my desk than what I'm used to).

Hopefully, there will be more new MIDI 2.0 options in the near future from quality manufacturers.


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## emilio_n

I want to buy a NI Komplete S88 but after reading all your experiences... I will search for other options. The light guide is the thing I will miss more. I have a lot of Kontakt libraries and I think for all the Sonokinetic ones the lights are super useful.
I will follow it to see your suggestions. I like the KAwai VPC1 but is expensive and I didn't know that doesn't have pedal input!


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## Thundercat

Lee Blaske said:


> BTW, another update on my S88MkII...
> 
> I've had the continual vanishing pedal assignment problem since I got it, but that's nothing new. Sometimes it keeps the assignment, sometimes I have to launch Komplete Kontrol and reassign. Glad to hear others are having the same issue and it's not just me.
> 
> But, my S88MkII just developed some new problems. It would sometimes jump pitch. And an additional problem, the range of the pitch bend wheel has become restricted. All of the bending, up and down, happens in the first quarter inch or so of wheel movement. The rest of the travel does nothing. Makes it really impossible to use.
> 
> So, just to check things out, I opened it up. FWIW, ALL of the screws on the bottom and in the side bell need to come out with the exception of the four holding the rubber feet on and two of them in the back that are holding some plastic spacers.
> 
> Once inside, I discovered one of the problems... The middle wire of the potentiometer for the pitch bend was NEVER SOLDERED! It was just laying in the connection. Very shoddy workmanship. Soldering that wire seems to have taken care of the sudden pitch changes, but not the control travel problem. I checked to make sure all connectors were secure. Not worth troubleshooting this any more, because I don't think there's a way to get parts from NI.
> 
> Anyway, I wish I could unsee what I saw inside the S88MkII. The construction and the build of the action is HORRIBLE! This is a disposable piece of junk. Huge glops of lubricant slathered over the action. And, if you ever needed to repair a key, you have to completely disassemble the instrument to get at it. If you have one of these, play it lightly to be SURE you don't break a key! Way too much plastic in this instrument.
> 
> Honestly, I really liked the idea of NKS, and the LEDs indicated key switching. Very handy. I owned the original S88, and didn't like the action on it. I upgraded to the MKII hoping it would be an improvement. It was slightly nicer, but not great. It has the typical inconsistency of velocity from key to key of Fatar keyboards. No way around it. This is an inferior action.
> 
> I've emailed and gotten an initial response from NI support. It's out of warranty. I imagine I'm going to have to send it in for repair (and that's going to be fairly expensive for a large instrument). Waiting to hear on that.
> 
> I don't think, though, that I can ever go back to having that instrument front and center in my studio (I have some other nice options, but obviously, without NKS). NKS is a great idea, but if it requires a sub-standard key action, it has no place in a professional studio.
> 
> So currently, I've got my Korg KronosX 88 key front and center. No NKS, but the action is ENORMOUSLY better. I can see, now, that I was really cutting the S88MkII a lot of slack, because I really wanted to have the NKS capabilities (I've got a lot of Kontakt libraries).
> 
> If the S88MkII is out of the picture, I'm kind of at a loss for what else I might want, in terms of a MIDI controller. I DEFINITELY don't want anything else with a Fatar action (that rules out Doepfer, StudioLogic, NI, Nord, and a bunch of others). I really like the high-end Korg action, the high-end Yamaha action and the weighted Kawai action. Unfortunately, Yamaha and Korg don't make 88 key weighted controllers. The Kawai VPC1 is great, but has no MIDI controls or pedal inputs, and is too tall to put in front of a screen.
> 
> Maybe MIDI 2.0 is going to bring a whole new round of options. The Roland A88MkII looks like a well-made keyboard (with the way I have things positioned in my setup, though, I'm a little concerned about the thickness of the case - the key tops would be higher off of my desk than what I'm used to).
> 
> Hopefully, there will be more new MIDI 2.0 options in the near future from quality manufacturers.


I think you have to understand what you are buying. It’s a controller and NKS system first, keyboard second. To vilify it I think is unfair - it was never billed as the finest action known to man.

I own the s88 mk2 too - and I’m a pianist and it acceptable for composing on, for me. Perhaps not for you.

I also own a Kawai mp9. Superior action. That’s what I use to really play piano on.

I just think youneed to realize the purpose of the product. To compose things. 

That’s my take anyway. I’m sorry you’re not happy with it. I hope you get this resolved.

best,

mike


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## Thundercat

emilio_n said:


> I want to buy a NI Komplete S88 but after reading all your experiences... I will search for other options. The light guide is the thing I will miss more. I have a lot of Kontakt libraries and I think for all the Sonokinetic ones the lights are super useful.
> I will follow it to see your suggestions. I like the KAwai VPC1 but is expensive and I didn't know that doesn't have pedal input!


Try to find one somehow and try it out. It’s not as bad a keyboard as some are making it out to be.

we’d probably all be shocked to open electronics to see what’s inside.

now an unsoldered wire - yeah that’s pretty bad. there’s alwaysan occasional lemon in every product line.

my s88 mk2 performs excellently. I just used it to record a very fast and intricate piano part. No problem.


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## emilio_n

Thundercat said:


> Try to find one somehow and try it out. It’s not as bad a keyboard as some are making it out to be.
> 
> we’d probably all be shocked to open electronics to see what’s inside.
> 
> now an unsoldered wire - yeah that’s pretty bad. there’s alwaysan occasional lemon in every product line.
> 
> my s88 mk2 performs excellently. I just used it to record a very fast and intricate piano part. No problem.


I studied piano in the past but I am far to be professional. I am not very picky with the keybeds. I tried the touch of the S88 in a local shop and is ok. Maybe a little bit "rubbery". In the past I had a Casio Privia (I don't remember the model) but I remember that I like more. 
If I by the S88 Mk2 I will need to use both for composing and to play because I don't have too much budget and space on my tinny home in Hong Kong! 
Thanks for your opinion Thundercat. Maybe I will give it a chance.


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## Thundercat

emilio_n said:


> I studied piano in the past but I am far to be professional. I am not very picky with the keybeds. I tried the touch of the S88 in a local shop and is ok. Maybe a little bit "rubbery". In the past I had a Casio Privia (I don't remember the model) but I remember that I like more.
> If I by the S88 Mk2 I will need to use both for composing and to play because I don't have too much budget and space on my tinny home in Hong Kong!
> Thanks for your opinion Thundercat. Maybe I will give it a chance.


Of course I want you to be happy! Whatever will work for you. I just wanted to balance the extremely negative review with a positive, also true, one. I respect everyone's experience.


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## DS_Joost

Laptoprabbit said:


> I'm considering Studiologic - could I ask which one?
> 
> Edit: Specifically thinking about Numa Compact 2 vs SL88 Studio if anyone has those.



I have had an old SL880 Pro, loved that thing to death, but it wasn't the best electronics wise. Got it secondhand and got a few years out of it. So I was satisfied.

I now have a Numa Nano. Bought secondhand, 130 euros. Almost new. Feels like a right bargain to me. I am in love with it's velocity response (as I was with the 880). This one also feels better build, I can be very agile in playing it, and feel totally in control of my playing style. Like a one on one relationship between the keyboard and me. Keys are heavy, but I like that. Not spongy. It's a loud sucker though, but honestly, I've never had a silent keyboard and you get used to it pretty quick.

Studiologics shine in their playability. Beautiful keyboards. Be ware of their internal electronics though. Handle them with care.


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## Lee Blaske

Thundercat said:


> I think you have to understand what you are buying. It’s a controller and NKS system first, keyboard second. To vilify it I think is unfair - it was never billed as the finest action known to man.
> 
> I own the s88 mk2 too - and I’m a pianist and it acceptable for composing on, for me. Perhaps not for you.
> 
> I also own a Kawai mp9. Superior action. That’s what I use to really play piano on.
> 
> I just think youneed to realize the purpose of the product. To compose things.
> 
> That’s my take anyway. I’m sorry you’re not happy with it. I hope you get this resolved.
> 
> best,
> 
> mike



Well, my problem then is having NKS put forward as an important new standard, and having a bunch of other companies sign on to configure their libraries to support that new standard. A LOT of effort has been put into that. What's the point of it, then, if you can only access the NKS system with a sub-standard keyboard? It doesn't make sense to me. 

I don't mind that an inexpensive, poorly made keyboard exists. But, if NKS is going to be an important standard that a large swath of the industry will be wasting time on, there should be QUALITY keyboard options available.

And yes, the problem with NI's current products is that way too much of the purchase price is going to the NKS system and display screens. That means that they really have to cut corners on the keyboard action to bring in a unit at a specific price point (obviously targeting about $1k for the 88 key model).

I would say the S88MkII is an ineffectual tool for composition. If the velocity response from key to key is inconsistent, how are you supposed to be able to play in parts that need a lot of velocity response?


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## Lee Blaske

Thundercat said:


> Try to find one somehow and try it out. It’s not as bad a keyboard as some are making it out to be.
> 
> we’d probably all be shocked to open electronics to see what’s inside.
> 
> now an unsoldered wire - yeah that’s pretty bad. there’s alwaysan occasional lemon in every product line.
> 
> my s88 mk2 performs excellently. I just used it to record a very fast and intricate piano part. No problem.



They feel okay, if a bit viscously damped out of the box. The action will change for you, though, if you use it often. All of that lubricant glop works its way out of the action pivots, and the keyboard will get progressively more clattery and noisy with time. And again, if you break a key - MAJOR surgery is required.


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## Lee Blaske

emilio_n said:


> I want to buy a NI Komplete S88 but after reading all your experiences... I will search for other options. The light guide is the thing I will miss more. I have a lot of Kontakt libraries and I think for all the Sonokinetic ones the lights are super useful.
> I will follow it to see your suggestions. I like the KAwai VPC1 but is expensive and I didn't know that doesn't have pedal input!



I haven't tried one yet, but you might want to take a close look at the new Roland A88MkII, if the size fits your work setup. MIDI 2.0, so it's future proof. And, the construction and action of it is getting rave reviews (they're actually using wood!). About $1k, like the S88MkII, but most of the money you're paying for the Roland is actually going into the keyboard action, NOT the display screens. 

Again, I haven't tried it, and I haven't had one apart to look at the construction, but I have a better feeling about the larger companies that have the deep pockets to really design and manufacture their own action, rather than buy an inexpensive Fatar or Mendeli action and shoehorn it into their product.


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## dcoscina

I'm testing out the new Roland A88mk2 - I got a review model but sadly have to give it back after my review is done. :(

It's really nice. Action is the Roland PHA-4 but feels WAY better than when it's housed inside their FP30 or FP10 line (probably because those boards have plastic casing, whereas the A88 has a metal chassis except for each end which is plastic).


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## spacepluk

emilio_n said:


> I want to buy a NI Komplete S88 but after reading all your experiences... I will search for other options. The light guide is the thing I will miss more. I have a lot of Kontakt libraries and I think for all the Sonokinetic ones the lights are super useful.
> I will follow it to see your suggestions. I like the KAwai VPC1 but is expensive and I didn't know that doesn't have pedal input!



FWIW the VPC1 has pedal inputs and it comes with a three pedal unit with half damper function. It also has MIDI in/out connectors and USB. What it doesn't have is any knobs of faders.


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## Lee Blaske

spacepluk said:


> FWIW the VPC1 has pedal inputs and it comes with a three pedal unit with half damper function. It also has MIDI in/out connectors and USB. What it doesn't have is any knobs of faders.



Yes, it has the traditional three pedal piano setup (to be used with the triple pedal they designed). It doesn't have a pedal input for controlling expression/volume, or pitch bend/mod wheel, or as you said, any knobs or faders. It's really designed to be like an acoustic piano, and that's it. Really does that job well, though.


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## spacepluk

It definitely does, I’m super happy with mine  I have a separate controller on top (kk s61 mk2) for the knobs, expression pedals, etc. and that’s a really good combination imho.


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## Lee Blaske

spacepluk said:


> It definitely does, I’m super happy with mine  I have a separate controller on top (kk s61 mk2) for the knobs, expression pedals, etc. and that’s a really good combination imho.



That sounds like a good combination. I've thought of adding some MIDI Solutions products to mine. There's also that Palette Gear stuff.

I have to admit that I got a ridiculously good deal on my Kawai VPC1. It was listed on eBay as freight damaged, for parts only, untested with broken keys. When I got it, I quickly saw that all that was wrong with it was that it had been dropped on the front key edge. Ordered a new one from Kawai for around $70, and I had essentially a brand-new, mint condition VPC1 for about $250. I've actually seen a lot of them come up freight damaged on eBay, but most of them are damaged more severely. Kawai really needs to rethink their shipping container.


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## Levon

spacepluk said:


> It definitely does, I’m super happy with mine  I have a separate controller on top (kk s61 mk2) for the knobs, expression pedals, etc. and that’s a really good combination imho.


I do have concerns about the build quality of the NI SS88 which is what is delaying my purchase of it. I'm considering a 2 keyboard alternative, with the Roland A88 and the NI SS49 to give me access to the NKS functions.


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## emilio_n

Lee Blaske said:


> I haven't tried one yet, but you might want to take a close look at the new Roland A88MkII, if the size fits your work setup. MIDI 2.0, so it's future proof. And, the construction and action of it is getting rave reviews (they're actually using wood!). About $1k, like the S88MkII, but most of the money you're paying for the Roland is actually going into the keyboard action, NOT the display screens.
> 
> Again, I haven't tried it, and I haven't had one apart to look at the construction, but I have a better feeling about the larger companies that have the deep pockets to really design and manufacture their own action, rather than buy an inexpensive Fatar or Mendeli action and shoehorn it into their product.


The New Roland A-88 Mk2 looks very nice choice. I think I can live without the NKS if the keys are better. My only concern is the mod wheel for dynamics. What do you think?


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## Lee Blaske

emilio_n said:


> The New Roland A-88 Mk2 looks very nice choice. I think I can live without the NKS if the keys are better. My only concern is the mod wheel for dynamics. What do you think?



Personally, for pitch bend and adding LFO vibrato, I'm fine with either wheels, or more of a joy stick. The drawback, though, is if you want to use a mod wheel (that doesn't have a spring return) to set Expression (#11) and leave it at a certain position. If the control is spring loaded and snaps back, you can't set it to a specific expression. On the A88Mk2, though, you could use one of the rotary controls to do that. Or, use a foot pedal controller (personally, I've played a lot of Hammond B-3, so controlling volume for me with a foot pedal is pretty natural for me). But then, you'd have to decide if you just wanted to control Expression #11, or Expression #11 and Volume/Dynamics #7. For me, it depends on the VI. With some, I only want to control expression. With others, I might like to control both. One quite unique thing about that A88Mk2 is that it has a sustain pedal input, but then, it has not one but two additional controller inputs. So, you could conceivably use two variable foot pedals. One for MIDI #11, and one for MIDI #7. Adding wind control with a TECControl would also be another option. Lots of ways to get things done. I guess that's why there really is not MIDI keyboard controller that everybody is using. We've all got various tastes and preferences. 

I will say, when it was working, the touch strip on the S88MkII was handy for specifying vibrato amount. 

OTOH, I've discovered that a joystick that isn't spring loaded (like the additional one on the Kronos) is really idea for vibrato control with instruments that can control speed and depth. You can set speed on one axis, and depth on the other, and really get a handle on things with a single control.


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## emilio_n

Lee Blaske said:


> Personally, for pitch bend and adding LFO vibrato, I'm fine with either wheels, or more of a joy stick. The drawback, though, is if you want to use a mod wheel (that doesn't have a spring return) to set Expression (#11) and leave it at a certain position. If the control is spring loaded and snaps back, you can't set it to a specific expression. On the A88Mk2, though, you could use one of the rotary controls to do that. Or, use a foot pedal controller (personally, I've played a lot of Hammond B-3, so controlling volume for me with a foot pedal is pretty natural for me). But then, you'd have to decide if you just wanted to control Expression #11, or Expression #11 and Volume/Dynamics #7. For me, it depends on the VI. With some, I only want to control expression. With others, I might like to control both. One quite unique thing about that A88Mk2 is that it has a sustain pedal input, but then, it has not one but two additional controller inputs. So, you could conceivably use two variable foot pedals. One for MIDI #11, and one for MIDI #7. Adding wind control with a TECControl would also be another option. Lots of ways to get things done. I guess that's why there really is not MIDI keyboard controller that everybody is using. We've all got various tastes and preferences.
> 
> I will say, when it was working, the touch strip on the S88MkII was handy for specifying vibrato amount.
> 
> OTOH, I've discovered that a joystick that isn't spring loaded (like the additional one on the Kronos) is really idea for vibrato control with instruments that can control speed and depth. You can set speed on one axis, and depth on the other, and really get a handle on things with a single control.


I think using the foot pedals is the best way. Just I will need to practice a lot before I can do it properly!


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## dcoscina

emilio_n said:


> The New Roland A-88 Mk2 looks very nice choice. I think I can live without the NKS if the keys are better. My only concern is the mod wheel for dynamics. What do you think?


Yeah that lever is annoying. My work around was to assign one of its 8 programmable knobs today Cc1. Using their software you can also program the backlit light color on the knobs and pads. Very cool.
Conversely there is enough room for a Korg NanoKontrol above the keyboard. I tried that too.


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