# Library Comparison Thread (Audio Demos)



## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

This is a thread for comparing and discussing different libraries. We started this topic in another thread and I thought I’d move it here to try and keep it a bit more organised. 

*Want to do a comparison:*
Post a midi file of what you want to compare, and tell us what what libraries you would like to see compared. Although, libraries are accepted, and multiple version of the same library as well, it might be easier if you have something specific in mind. It would also be good if you post an audio demo of what you yourself have been able to do with your libraries, and what you've been able to do with the midi. If you do multiple libraries separate them into multiple mp3 files.

*Naming scheme:
T*o keep it easily organised it would be good if we had some sort of standard naming scheme. So far I've used this:
_Name of the track_ - _Library (Instrument)_

Example:
Luke and Leia - CSB (Solo Horn)

*Legend*
If your not sure what all the abbreviations mean, chillbot made a great thread that is still up to date.

Check it out here:
https://vi-control.net/community/threads/glossary-of-vi-c-abbreviations.67167/


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

*Demos*

_Princess Leia's Theme_ (Flute)
MIDI
Links: CW (5Lives), BWW (5Lives), BWW Exp B (Land of Missing Parts), IW (El Buhdai), IW (Dan), 8D Claire (Pipedr), WarpIV (Bollen), VSL (Bollen), Expressive Instruments (Bollen), SStW (Land of Missing parts), BBSCO (miket), Claire Flute (Land of Missing Parts),

_Luke and Leia_ (French Horn)
MIDI
Links: Mystery 1, HWB - CSB - CB (5Lives), IW (Dan), IW Sterile (El Buhdai), IW Fancy (El Buhdai), CSB (NoamL), VSL (Bollen), SM (Bollen), CSB (Land of Missing Parts), CSB Softer (Land of Missing parts), Majestic Horn (Land of Missing parts), SSB Solo Horn (Off-site), SSB Horn a2 (Off-site), BBSCO (miket), JXL Brass (Orchestral Tools), JXL Brass (Eptesicus)

_Peter Denies Jesus_ (Flute)
MIDI
Links: CW, SSW, BWW Inspire, IW (Dan), BWW Exp B (The Land of Missing Parts), BBSCO (miket)

_Hummel Concerto _(Trumpet)
MIDI
Links: IB (Dan), CSB (Dan), SMB v1, SMB v2, VSL Cornet (Rob), Embertone Chapman Trumpet (cloudbuster), NI Session Horns Standard (floego), Norrland Samples Solo Trumpet (Norrland Samples)

_Flight to Neverland_ (Horns)
MIDI
Links: SMB, CSB v1 (Off-site), CSB v2 (Off-site), CB v1 (Off-site), IB Legato (Dan), IB Non-legato (Dan), IB Non-legato v2 (Dan), BBSCO (miket), Caspian (Land of Missing Parts), BBR (Off-Site), CSB (NoamL), Audio Imperia Talos 12Horns (Klesk)

_The Voice in My Heart_ (Oboe)
MIDI
Links: SWAM A, SWAM B, SWAM C, SWAM D, CW Ob1, CW Ob2, 8Dio Claire, 8DiOboe, BWW Legacy Ob1, BWW Legacy Ob2, BWW B, SWW, Miroslav Philharmonik (Rob)


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

*Reserved*


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

*Reserved*


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 11, 2019)

Here are the comparisons of solo flute playing Leia's Theme.


1.CineWinds
2.Berlin Woodwinds Legacy
3.Berlin Woodwinds Exp B
4.Infinite Woodwinds
5.8Dio Claire Flute (Treated w/ Altiverb, Gullfoss, Melodyne. Original Post)
6.Spitfire Studio Woodwinds
7.Spitfire BBC SO
8.WarpIV
9.VSL (Solo flute 1)
10.Expressive Instruments (Flute prototype. More info here.)
(Labeled in the Soundcloud comments.)

Here are the comparisons of solo horn playing Luke and Leia's Theme.

1.Cinebrass
2.Infinite Brass
3.VSL Brass 1 (Viennese Horn/Horn Vienna)
4.Sample Modeling Horn
5.Organic Samples/Orchestral Tools Majestic Horn
6.Cinematic Studio Brass
7.EW Hollywood Brass
8.Spitfire Symphonic Brass
9.Spitfire BBC SO
10.Orchestral Tools Junkie XL Brass

And solo flutes playing "Peter Denies Jesus" from The Passion of the Christ

1.Cinewinds
2.Berlin Inspire
3.Infinite Woodwinds
4.Berlin Woodwinds Exp B
5.Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds
6.Spitfire BBC SO

Horns playing "Flight to Neverland"

1.CineBrass
2.Berlin Brass
3.Infinite Brass
4.Sample Modeling
5.Cinematic Studio Brass (4 Horns)
6.Spitfire BBC SO
7.Performance Samples Caspian Brass (6 Horns)
8.Audio Imperia Talos (12 Horns)
9.Waverunner Audio 2 French Horns
10.Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 1 (9 Horns)

Solo Flute Comparisons Made by @jules (posted here)

1.Auddict Master Solo Flute
2.CineWinds
3.8Dio Claire Flute
4.EW Hollywood Woodwinds
5.Berlin Woodwinds Exp B
6.Spitfire Symphonic Woodwinds
7.Symphobia 2


1.Berlin Woodwinds Expansion B
2.Berlin Woodwinds Oboe 2
3.Cinewinds Oboe 1
4.8Dio Claire Oboe
5.8Dioboe
6.Spitfire Studio Woodwinds
7.Audio Modeling Swam B
8.IK Multimedia Miroslav Philharmonik


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 11, 2019)

It's worth noting that comparisons like this are invariably going to be colored by the individual choices of the person making the mockup. The dynamic shaping, tempo, amount of reverb, etc.

While you can draw worthwhile conclusions, you should treat them as single data points and not let any one example weigh too heavily on your opinion per say.

It's not _just_ the library you're hearing, but also how people use it.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

I had someone do the Symphonic Brass as well. Sounds rather sweet, not sweet as in awesome, but sweet as in mellow and soft. Works quite well for softer and more sensitive lines.

He said that he was riding the Solo Horn about 80-100 on cc1, and that the Solo Horn has one more layer of dynamics but it never really gets very aggressive, so only works for softer lines. He used the exact same midi for Horn a2. It suffers the same problem, it's just not as extreme as with the Solo Horn. The Horn a2 probably goes to mf-f, but not f-ff. If you want FF you would have to reach for the Horn a6. He thought that would be overkill for this score so he didn't do a version of that.


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

Here is something that would interest me to see a comparison of: A short excerpt from Johann Nepomuk Hummel's famous Trumpet Concerto which is very virtuosic.

I have no particular libraries in mind to compare this to. Just curios how all kinds of brass libraries would play this.

Below a midi file and the Infinite Brass version.

EDIT: Added a Cinematic Studio Brass version. It holds up pretty well in my opinion except for the legato, which is way to slow for this kind of playing. Really a shame because the sound of the instrument is nice and bouncy on the short notes.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> It's worth noting that comparisons like this are invariably going to be colored by the individual choices of the person making the mockup. The dynamic shaping, tempo, amount of reverb, etc.
> 
> While you can draw worthwhile conclusions, you should treat them as single data points and not let any one example weigh too heavily on your opinion per say.



Yes. Creative choices, as well as some handle libraries with different efficiency. I don't want to scare anyone from posting, but it's good to keep that in mind when listening to the demos. This is probably not the best these libraries can sound, but it is what the users of these libraries did with them. Which is always interesting to hear.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Dan said:


> Here is something that would interest me to see a comparison of: A short excerpt from Johann Nepomuk Hummel's famous Trumpet Concerto which is very virtuosic.
> 
> I have no particular libraries in mind to compare this to. Just curios how all kinds of brass libraries would play this.
> 
> Below a midi file and the Infinite Trumpet version.



Yeah... Good luck finding another library, except for maybe Sample Modeling, that can do that somewhat convincingly or even as well as Infinite. Hope someone proves me wrong.


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yeah... Good luck finding another library, except for maybe Sample Modeling, that can do that somewhat convincingly or even as well as Infinite. Hope someone proves me wrong.



I was suspecting that, but since I own none of the other expensive Brass libraries (except for CSB, a rendering of which I just added to my original post) I am genuinely curious if they are able to play those fast legato passages (maybe some have a "runs" patch or something like that?) and how they blend with the short notes.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Dan said:


> I was suspecting that, but since I own none of the other expensive Brass libraries (except for CSB, a rendering of which I just added to my original post) I am genuinely curious if they are able to play those fast legato passages (maybe some have a "runs" patch or something like that?) and how they blend with the short notes.



Agreed. It would be interesting to see if any library could come close. I believe Berlin Brass have fast runs legato. But those super tight short notes will trip most libraries.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Dan said:


> Here is something that would interest me to see a comparison of: A short excerpt from Johann Nepomuk Hummel's famous Trumpet Concerto which is very virtuosic.
> 
> I have no particular libraries in mind to compare this to. Just curios how all kinds of brass libraries would play this.
> 
> ...



Did you use the marcato articulation for the runs? The shorts sound alright, but CSB is also one of the few libraries with very consistent shorts.


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Did you use the marcato articulation for the runs? The shorts sound alright, but CSB is also one of the few libraries with very consistent shorts.



Yes, I used marcato legato since the normal legato patch sounded even muddier. The shorts are indeed very decent, I was pleasantly surprised.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

@Dan, I made a quick version of the Hummel Concerto with Sample Modeling Brass.

The midi worked rather well right out of the box, so I didn't have to change anything too much. My version is a lot wetter than yours. I didn't compare it when mixing. I could make a dryer version if you want -- I still have access to it for a couple of more hours.


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> @Dan, I made a quick version of the Hummel Concerto with Sample Modeling Brass.
> 
> The midi worked rather well right out of the box, so I didn't have to change anything too much. My version is a lot wetter than yours. I didn't compare it when mixing. I could make a dryer version if you want -- I still have access to it for a couple of more hours.



That sounds impressive. Since you mentioned it, I would love to hear it a little more up close, if it's not much work for you.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Dan said:


> That sounds impressive. Since you mentioned it, I would love to hear it a little more up close, if it's not much work for you.



Here you go. Closer to the mix of your example. By no means perfect, but closer.


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here you go. Closer to the mix of your example. By no means perfect, but closer.




Tank you! Seems to me like it can handle the phrasing very well and could sound totally amazing with some more polishing (and maybe slightly lower attacks? Just guessing here....) This trumpet really seems to have a lot of power and a nice full sound which is probably great for epic symphonic stuff combined with the flexibility.

Edit: In terms of timbre it easily beats the Infinite Trumpet by the way in my opinion.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Dan said:


> Tank you! Seems to me like it can handle the phrasing very well and could sound totally amazing with some more polishing (and maybe slightly lower attacks? Just guessing here....) This trumpet really seems to have a lot of power and a nice full sound which is probably great for epic symphonic stuff combined with the flexibility.
> 
> Edit: In terms of timbre it easily beats the Infinite Trumpet by the way in my opinion.



Yes, definitely. With some tweaking you could make it play however you want.

The biggest problem people seem to have with Sample Modeling is the mixing. Without mixing, it sounds like sticking your head into the trumpet. Not a very pleasant sound, and the horns are even worse. It does have a very full sound, you just need to balance it for a orchestral context, unless you want a really close sounding trumpet.


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

By the way, who agrees that @Bollen should solve the mystery of the mysterious mystery flutes? I am still very curious where that No. 3 is from.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

_Flight to Neverland_ (Horns)

Here's something a little more advanced than just standard legato. It would be interesting to see if anyone can manage to get close with any library. I'm especially interested in hearing what Infinite Brass can do here.

I might do more parts of the score later.

I've already gotten a few version for it; two CSB versions and two CB version.

The notes I got from the ones who did them are that it was hard to get it sounding decent, and in the end they had to compromise and make them their own version -- not trying to make it sound like the original, but instead just making it sound decent in it's own right. They would have had to spend a considerable more amount of time to make them sound better / closer to the original. Also to note about the CSB version, it doesn't do crossfades for it's short articulations. CSB v1 are longs and marcatos, CSB v2 is shorts (stac, sfz, etc). He added a little snippet at the end of v2 to show what he meant. The first note is @74 velocity and the second is @75. Big difference in character.

CB had similar problems where the short notes are a lower in volume to have the same timber as the longs. He said that if he raised the short notes velocity they became too aggressive.

For both of them drastic cc changes was a problem, as usual. So they couldn't to the phrasing that some note needed, instead you get a sucking sound or a odd cutoff.

The Sample Modeling Brass is done by me. There's a few quirks working with SMB, but it wasn't too hard to get it to sound like it does in the example I've posted.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

CSB & CB

Edit: New Versions


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## Rob (Nov 11, 2019)

more on the finesse side, here's VSL cornet, one of my favorite trumpets:


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Rob said:


> more on the finesse side, here's VSL cornet, one of my favorite trumpets:



That's impressive! VSL still holds up, and in a lot of cases, exceeds current libraries. Same with the old VSL Woodwinds, they are still some of the best. I believe this could be because of them being recorded dry.


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> _Flight to Neverland_ (Horns)
> 
> Here's something a little more advanced than just standard legato. It would be interesting to see if anyone can manage to get close with any library. I'm especially interested in hearing what Infinite Brass can do here.
> 
> ...



Here is Infinite Brass (played by 4 Horns), one version with legato as the notes in the midi were overlapping and one version cleaned up after I listened to the original and realized that this has to be played with new attacks on each note.

EDIT: Just added a third version with a little bit more bite (still not full fortissimo though), as I thought maybe the first versions were a bit too tame.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Dan said:


> Here is
> 
> 
> Here is Infinite Brass (played by 4 Horns), once with legato as the notes in the midi were overlapping and once cleaned up after I listened to the original and realized that this has to be played with new attacks on each note.



Yep, I did Horn a4 as well.

It sounds good. Playability wise it sounds to be on par with SMB for sure. I still think I favour the sound of SMB here.

Of the IB examples I liked the legato the best.


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## Bollen (Nov 11, 2019)

Dan said:


> By the way, who agrees that @Bollen should solve the mystery of the mysterious mystery flutes? I am still very curious where that No. 3 is from.


OK, OK... I was hoping for more reviews that's all... So:

1.- WarpIV
2.- VSL (Solo flute 1)
3.- Expressive Instruments (Flute prototype)

The latter is a new company I'm launching at some point next year which uses a very different approach to virtual instruments... In fact, I'm counting on it revolutionising the industry...


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Bollen said:


> OK, OK... I was hoping for more reviews that's all... So:
> 
> 1.- WarpIV
> 2.- VSL (Solo flute 1)
> ...



You sneaky...

That's great to hear. You've got a good prototype going. Looking forward to hearing more.


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## Bollen (Nov 11, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> You sneaky...
> 
> That's great to hear. You've got a good prototype going. Looking forward to hearing more.


Heh, heh, heh! Well the first instruments we're going to launch will be the saxophone family since we felt these were the worst done so far by everyone... And if you can make a saxophone sound real then everything else should be easy as pie !

The flute samples were recorded by me just for the sake of research, so we'll need to hire a proper flautist (flutist) to record some nice ones! Hopefully the saxophones will fund that...


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Heh, heh, heh! Well the first instruments we're going to launch will be the saxophone family since we felt these were the worst done so far by everyone... And if you can make a saxophone sound real then everything else should be easy as pie !
> 
> The flute samples were recorded by me just for the sake of research, so we'll need to hire a proper flautist (flutist) to record some nice ones! Hopefully the saxophones will fund that...



Awesome! Can't wait to hear more of it after listening to that amazing flute.


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## I like music (Nov 11, 2019)

Bollen said:


> OK, OK... I was hoping for more reviews that's all... So:
> 
> 1.- WarpIV
> 2.- VSL (Solo flute 1)
> ...



Cheeky fucker. That's one way to get people hooked/interested. I'm very, very interested in this!


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 11, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Heh, heh, heh! Well the first instruments we're going to launch will be the saxophone family since we felt these were the worst done so far by everyone... And if you can make a saxophone sound real then everything else should be easy as pie !
> 
> The flute samples were recorded by me just for the sake of research, so we'll need to hire a proper flautist (flutist) to record some nice ones! Hopefully the saxophones will fund that...



Very intriguing. I have questions, but I will still my eagerness and wait until you've have something more to show.


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## vicontrolu (Nov 11, 2019)

Bollen, are you planning on a sale anytime soon?

Just vicontroling you


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## CT (Nov 11, 2019)

Here's a quick take on all of these played live with BBCSO and a breath controller, except the Hummel, which I don't know off the top of my head and don't have time to do justice to by fiddling with MIDI. I don't know that Hook excerpt either, so I'm just going by the first example of it posted.


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## Dan (Nov 11, 2019)

miket said:


> Here's a quick take on all of these played live with BBCSO and a breath controller, except the Hummel, which I don't know off the top of my head and don't have time to do justice to by fiddling with MIDI. I don't know that Hook excerpt either, so I'm just going by the first example of it posted.




The horn section has a really nice and rich sound.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

miket said:


> Here's a quick take on all of these played live with BBCSO and a breath controller, except the Hummel, which I don't know off the top of my head and don't have time to do justice to by fiddling with MIDI. I don't know that Hook excerpt either, so I'm just going by the first example of it posted.




Thanks for posting this. I was hoping someone would do a version with BBCSO.

As seem to be the general consensus, it sounds pretty good. The flute sounds really nice, good legato and vibrato and nice tone. Not sure what I think about the horns. The legato seems a bit bumpy on the Luke and Leia theme and the sound is only okey. But I'm surprised it manages Flight to Neverland as well as it does. Although, I doubt it can manage the really fff parts from what I've heard of the higher dynamic range. How much harder can the Horns be driven in BBCSO?


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## Consona (Nov 12, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> CSB & CB


Holy s**t, CineBrass is a fricking clusterf**k.  So glad I've bought Core and Pro with no money left for anything else. 🤦‍♂️  Time to start saving money. CSB is in the middle between a good sound and good playability, the performance is noticeably more coherent than CB. Sample Modelling definitely wins when trying to sound like a real thing.


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## Eptesicus (Nov 12, 2019)

Dan said:


> Here is something that would interest me to see a comparison of: A short excerpt from Johann Nepomuk Hummel's famous Trumpet Concerto which is very virtuosic.
> 
> I have no particular libraries in mind to compare this to. Just curios how all kinds of brass libraries would play this.
> 
> ...




Wow that really highlights the weakness in traditionally done libraries like CSB still.

Infinite Brass does those runs so much better! Is that really the best CSB can do when it comes to fast legato lines like that?


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## Eptesicus (Nov 12, 2019)

Rob said:


> more on the finesse side, here's VSL cornet, one of my favorite trumpets:



This is good too. Still not quite as clean as Infinite.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 12, 2019)

miket said:


> Here's a quick take on all of these played live with BBCSO and a breath controller, except the Hummel, which I don't know off the top of my head and don't have time to do justice to by fiddling with MIDI. I don't know that Hook excerpt either, so I'm just going by the first example of it posted.



@miket -- Is it okay with you if I add these BBCSO versions to the Soundcloud comparisons I have posted here?


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## CT (Nov 12, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> How much harder can the Horns be driven in BBCSO?



I thought that question might be asked. There's actually still quite a bit to go past where the dynamics are in the Hook example. Maybe not Junkie fff, but I think Williams fff is definitely in there. 



Land of Missing Parts said:


> @miket -- Is it okay with you if I add these BBCSO versions to the Soundcloud comparisons I have posted here?



I'm sorry, I just saw your request for the file now. I deleted it once I uploaded it, but I'll see if I can download it back from Soundcloud and send it to you.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

Consona said:


> Holy s**t, CineBrass is a fricking clusterf**k.  So glad I've bought Core and Pro with no money left for anything else. 🤦‍♂️  Time to start saving money. CSB is in the middle between a good sound and good playability, the performance is noticeably more coherent than CB. Sample Modelling definitely wins when trying to sound like a real thing.



Yeah, it's kind of all over the place. The inconsistency between articulations makes it to use the keyswitch patchs; while using individual patches for each articulation will give you more freedom when mixing and balancing. CSB is better, but still limited by the traditional way of sampling. There's definitely pros and cons in each category.

But CineBrass is still great. It has some golden gems in it and can do most of the common brass parts just fine, although it might need a little bit more massaging to sound right. These comparison are definitely not 100% decisive of what a library can and can't handle. Most of the examples posted are not edited to perfection; import the midi, load the instrument, edit where needed, done. And that can be good to hear as well, does it take a lot of time to get the library sounding right, or can you get good results with less work? So in the right hands, and in hands that care more about detail, they will almost certainly sound better. Some of the examples have been cared for more than others. Also that 12Horn patch in pro... nothing has yet to beat it. One that gets close is the Trailer Brass Horn patch.

Sample Modeling is hard to measure against for traditional sample libraries. It just falls short on the sound most of the time, but playability and phrasing makes up for it if you into that.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

miket said:


> I thought that question might be asked. There's actually still quite a bit to go past where the dynamics are in the Hook example. Maybe not Junkie fff, but I think Williams fff is definitely in there.



Good to hear. I do believe HZ and JXL mega fff is to be considered a non-standard library feature. Especially since their sound comes from the amount of musicians as well. Not always, but in a lot of cases I would say that's a factor.

You can get a really brassy sound with 4 Horns but it will not have the same thickness and depth as 10-12 Horns will.

Anyway, good to hear that BBCSO might be able to handle the higher dynamics as well. I had my eyes on it, but kept my hype in check, been brunet one too many times, and when it released I was disappointing by what I heard and saw. Hoping to hear more from it that convinces me it's able to do a broader spectrum of music than just the softer side.


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## 5Lives (Nov 12, 2019)

SampleModeling examples sounded better than Infinite Brass to me - and surprisingly convincing tone (the playability surely contributes to that).


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

5Lives said:


> SampleModeling examples sounded better than Infinite Brass to me - and surprisingly convincing tone (the playability surely contributes to that).



I know that SM and AV uses different techniques for their libraries, but I do like to compare them on the basis that they are pretty much the only players in their league.

Yes. I do agree that in these examples SM generally sounds better to me as well, but IB is not far behind. Keep in mind that SM is mixed, IB is probably not.

But something else to consider, at least that I'm considering, is: SM is pretty taxing on the CPU; it took them something like 10 years to release strings from when they first released brass, so how long do we have to wait for woodwinds; they don't don't sound very good out of the box; and they can be hard to work with at times.

While Aaron Venture on the other hand: is not very taxing on the CPU; in the span of a year Aaron has released Brass and Woodwinds, Strings coming in a few months and after that Percussion; they sound pretty good out of the box. You get my point. Is the difference in sound and realise worth it for _you _when comparing Infinte vs Sample Modeling, because they do seem to play pretty much the same. Furthermore you also do get A LOT more instruments with Aaron Venture.


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## Bollen (Nov 12, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I know that SM and AV uses different techniques for their libraries, but I do like to compare them on the basis that they are pretty much the only players in their league.
> 
> Yes. I do agree that in these examples SM generally sounds better to me as well, but IB is not far behind. Keep in mind that SM is mixed, IB is probably not.
> 
> ...


Ah that's interesting, I always replace VSL instruments with SM when I'm running out of power, but yeah they're hard to sit in a mix.

I'm really impressed with what Aaron is doing! How can he possibly be recording and processing that many instruments, it's shocking... Dare I say supernatural !

(Unfortunately I don't have Infinite so I can't compare them to SM in terms of usability, but form what I've heard I can confidently say SM can sound real enough to fool a real player, not so with Infinite. But that just may be the programming).


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## Dan (Nov 12, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I know that SM and AV uses different techniques for their libraries, but I do like to compare them on the basis that they are pretty much the only players in their league.
> 
> Yes. I do agree that in these examples SM generally sounds better to me as well, but IB is not far behind. Keep in mind that SM is mixed, IB is probably not.
> 
> ...



I agree. Coincidentally I bought SM Strings just yesterday after some consideration (I blame Aaron Venture for not having brought out Infinite Strings yet  ). I have to admit I was surprised by how heavy they are on my CPU. Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are way more CPU-friendly, especially if you pick the mixed mic positions.
I was kind of hoping that I could have this awesome orchestral template with IW and IB plus SM Strings.

The reality then looked like this: 4 Flutes, 3 Oboes, 3 Clarinets, 2 Bassoons + Contrabassoon, 6 Horns, 4 Trumpets, 3 Trombones + Tuba, all Infinite with mixed mics = ca. 60 % of my CPU when playing very complicated stuff.

Then I add SM Strings (Violins 1+2, Violas, Celli, Bass) and immediately get CPU spikes and the playback stops... I was kind of hoping it would just work. But well, I will have to look for a different approach to this.... would have been nice though to have super flexible instruments all in one template.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Ah that's interesting, I always replace VSL instruments with SM when I'm running out of power, but yeah they're hard to sit in a mix.
> 
> I'm really impressed with what Aaron is doing! How can he possibly be recording and processing that many instruments, it's shocking... Dare I say supernatural !
> 
> (Unfortunately I don't have Infinite so I can't compare them to SM in terms of usability, but form what I've heard I can confidently say SM can sound real enough to fool a real player, not so with Infinite. But that just may be the programming).



Yep. I've heard others using the same type of workflow; having other simpler instrument for composition and SM for finalising. Just sketching a track with ensemble patches and then replacing with SM or AV when done is a quick way of working. You don't have to worry about everything sound great when composing, just getting the idea across, then you can spend more time getting everything sound perfect in the end phase.



Dan said:


> I agree. Coincidentally I bought SM Strings just yesterday after some consideration (I blame Aaron Venture for not having brought out Infinite Strings yet  ). I have to admit I was surprised by how heavy they are on my CPU. Infinite Brass and Woodwinds are way more CPU-friendly, especially if you pick the mixed mic positions.
> I was kind of hoping that I could have this awesome orchestral template with IW and IB plus SM Strings.
> 
> The reality then looked like this: 4 Flutes, 3 Oboes, 3 Clarinets, 2 Bassoons + Contrabassoon, 6 Horns, 4 Trumpets, 3 Trombones + Tuba, all Infinite with mixed mics = ca. 60 % of my CPU when playing very complicated stuff.
> ...



Sorry to hear that, didn't know it was that bad. So it's eating up aprox. 40% of you CPU? What CPU do you have?

Even though AV instruments are CPU friendly, he's making LITE patches, for even less taxation on the system.

Another thing that's worth keeping in mind with dry instruments, you get way lower voice count, no linger reverb and all that. High voice count can crush your CPU as well.


----------



## Bollen (Nov 12, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yep. I've heard others using the same type of workflow; having other simpler instrument for composition and SM for finalising. Just sketching a track with ensemble patches and then replacing with SM or AV when done is a quick way of working. You don't have to worry about everything sound great when composing, just getting the idea across, then you can spend more time getting everything sound perfect in the end phase.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe I was thinking of RAM...
I don't think I've ever peaked my CPU. I'm also curious to know what CPU he has...


----------



## Dan (Nov 12, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Yep. I've heard others using the same type of workflow; having other simpler instrument for composition and SM for finalising. Just sketching a track with ensemble patches and then replacing with SM or AV when done is a quick way of working. You don't have to worry about everything sound great when composing, just getting the idea across, then you can spend more time getting everything sound perfect in the end phase.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, new observation: I just went back to the project and this time everything played a bit better than the last time and stopped only once at a passage where a lot is going on musically.... so not immediately at least. As to why this is suddenly slightly better than yesterday when it came to a halt much sooner, I don't know. Still my computer seems to be operating at the very limit and it is basically hit or miss if I get through the piece without maxing out the CPU...

I have a 6-core 3,2 GHz Intel Core i7

Finally, the piece was probably a bit taxing also... I added the strings to that Mahler mockup I did with Infinite Brass and Woodwinds recently. There is some crazy fast playing etc.... That might have contributed maybe.

EDIT: For those interested, here is the piece in question including the Sample Modeling Strings. I froze several tracks in Logic, that worked for now... Mahler 5 Mockup


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 12, 2019)

Added BBC SO and Caspian to the soundcloud comparison post.

@Jonathan Moray ---
Sorry I deleted the mp3s I posted earlier as the post was getting cluttered. I attached those three, plus my Flight to Neverland mockups for Caspian and CSB (Marcato Overlay)


----------



## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Added BBC SO and Caspian to the soundcloud comparison post.
> 
> @Jonathan Moray ---
> Sorry I deleted the mp3s I posted earlier as the post was getting cluttered. I attached those three, plus my Flight to Neverland mockups for Caspian and CSB (Marcato Overlay)



Alright. I've updated the post.


----------



## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

I also manged to get another one; Berlin Brass.

Some notes from the one who made it. They used sustains with the quick attack for the longer notes, and then staccatissimo with legato active for the short notes. I was told that using this combination helped to get a more connected feel, while still having sharper attacks. All that was used was the keyswitch patch and no mixing. The staccato, as can be heard, has a more aggressive character than the longs at the same level.

Apparently the whole Berlin Series is supposed to be pre-mixed and balanced, tough it doesn't sound like it is between articulations.


----------



## I like music (Nov 12, 2019)

Dan said:


> Okay, new observation: I just went back to the project and this time everything played a bit better than the last time and stopped only once at a passage where a lot is going on musically.... so not immediately at least. As to why this is suddenly slightly better than yesterday when it came to a halt much sooner, I don't know. Still my computer seems to be operating at the very limit and it is basically hit or miss if I get through the piece without maxing out the CPU...
> 
> I have a 6-core 3,2 GHz Intel Core i7
> 
> ...



Does surprise me as I have much worse specs but not having this issue. To be fair, on my audio interface my buffer size is 1024, or else I struggle with most things (2.2.ghz laptop). I don't care about lag as I don't play stuff in.


----------



## NoamL (Nov 12, 2019)

Eptesicus said:


> Wow that really highlights the weakness in traditionally done libraries like CSB still.
> 
> Infinite Brass does those runs so much better! Is that really the best CSB can do when it comes to fast legato lines like that?



That demo is crap 🤷‍♂️

You shouldn't take some of these demos seriously. I'm just attaching the original demo again so you can compare it with a demo that took a few minutes to create properly...


----------



## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 12, 2019)

NoamL said:


> That demo is crap 🤷‍♂️
> 
> You shouldn't take some of these demos seriously. I'm just attaching the original demo again so you can compare it with a demo that took a few minutes to create properly...


Correct key too. 

Noam's CSB version is now in the Soundcloud comparison post.


----------



## Dan (Nov 12, 2019)

NoamL said:


> That demo is crap 🤷‍♂️
> 
> You shouldn't take some of these demos seriously. I'm just attaching the original demo again so you can compare it with a demo that took a few minutes to create properly...



If I see this correctly Eptesicus was originally reacting to a different demo, the trumpet one from the Hummel concerto.

Nonetheless, your version of the Flight to Neverland is very good and beautifully shows the flaw that all demos of this kind have: In the end they depend as much on the person that created them as they do on the virtual instrument they are intended to give an impression of.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Nov 12, 2019)

Take them seriously if they sound good. If they don't, keep in mind they might still sound good in someone else's hands.


----------



## Eptesicus (Nov 12, 2019)

NoamL said:


> That demo is crap 🤷‍♂️
> 
> You shouldn't take some of these demos seriously. I'm just attaching the original demo again so you can compare it with a demo that took a few minutes to create properly...




What?

My post was in response to the Hummel trumpet demo...


----------



## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

NoamL said:


> That demo is crap 🤷‍♂️
> 
> You shouldn't take some of these demos seriously. I'm just attaching the original demo again so you can compare it with a demo that took a few minutes to create properly...



I agree, and it's been stated before. But dismissing them completely is up to you. It nice that you put in some work to making it sound correct. Though I still think it just sounds alright.

Anyway, I think Eptesicus was referring to the Hummel Conerto.

The version you're comparing it to is the version I got that was made only with the short articulations.

@Land of Missing Parts you're right. NoamL version is in the right key. Although, I used the Prologue as a reference which is like 50 cent of pitch for standard 440Hz Stuttgart pitch.


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## 5Lives (Nov 12, 2019)

Berlin Brass sounded pretty good - as does the updates CSB demo. I also liked Spitfire Studio Woodwinds for the Leia melody. Lot of good options - which I guess is my point of why I prefer tone over pure playability. Of course, ideally there is both and maybe in a mix, tone can be masked. But some of the Infinite demos just fall flat for me for tone - and the performance is not THAT much better than the other demos. I hope AV continues to improve the tone because clearly SM figured it out (for at least some stuff).


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

5Lives said:


> Berlin Brass sounded pretty good - as does the updates CSB demo. I also liked Spitfire Studio Woodwinds for the Leia melody. Lot of good options - which I guess is my point of why I prefer tone over pure playability. Of course, ideally there is both and maybe in a mix, tone can be masked. But some of the Infinite demos just fall flat for me for tone - and the performance is not THAT much better than the other demos. I hope AV continues to improve the tone because clearly SM figured it out (for at least some stuff).



Yes, I was pleasantly surprised by the BBR demo as well.

Playability is hard to hear in a demo, but agility can sometimes be heard. Spitfire seem to do Woodwinds quiet well. Same with BBCSO. And as you say; in a mix a lot of flaws can be hidden; exposed lines, not so much.

AV will continue improving his libraries it seems, already has a big update for Brass coming soon, so they might be to your liking in the future.

Yeah. SM is hard to beat, probably why it takes them *years *to develop new libraries.

I asked if my friend could do a new CSB version and this time spend some time on it, trying to make it sound as good as possible. So I might have a new CSB version coming. He probably won't make it sound as good as possible, but at least better.


----------



## 5Lives (Nov 12, 2019)

Yes agility is an important component too. And ultimately, it’s a question of what your end goal is. I am not a professional - so is tone really of utmost importance compare to playability and speed of programming for me? Probably not - I’d rather get to the end product faster. And that’s where Infinite series may actually be the winner for me.


----------



## Consona (Nov 12, 2019)

5Lives said:


> Berlin Brass sounded pretty good


Pretty good? Compared to what, the CB demo? 

Had to listen to the original, if the CSB FIX demo had lower dynamics when playing the fast passages of the melody, it would sound pretty similar, actually. 😯 

(Never heard the piece before, wow, it's fantastic.)


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 12, 2019)

Here's the new version of CSB. First version with staccatissimo for the short notes and second version with the marcato for the shorts notes. Also got a CB version done by the same person.


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## juliansader (Nov 29, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Heh, heh, heh! Well the first instruments we're going to launch will be the saxophone family since we felt these were the worst done so far by everyone... And if you can make a saxophone sound real then everything else should be easy as pie !
> 
> The flute samples were recorded by me just for the sake of research, so we'll need to hire a proper flautist (flutist) to record some nice ones! Hopefully the saxophones will fund that...



Are you doing jazz saxophones or classical saxophones?


----------



## Bollen (Nov 29, 2019)

juliansader said:


> Are you doing jazz saxophones or classical saxophones?


Well... We are trying for a different philosophy. Instead of a package that can do some tricks, we want this to be the last instrument you'll ever need. In other words, we want every instrument we release to be as realistic and close to the real instrument as humanly possible. So the instrument will be able to do everything the real instrument can! And I do mean everything...! It even runs out of breath!

They will be 2 altos, 2 tenors, a baritone and a soprano. They will be sampled with a dark and neutral mouthpiece that can do jazz and classical. The altos and tenors will also have a bright "funky", edgier instrument for the more popular genres... We've only worked on the dark tenor so far, but what we have accomplished sounds delicious!


----------



## Jonathan Moray (Nov 29, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Well... We are trying for a different philosophy. Instead of a package that can do some tricks, we want this to be the last instrument you'll ever need. In other words, we want every instrument we release to be as realistic and close to the real instrument as humanly possible. So the instrument will be able to do everything the real instrument can! And I do mean everything...! It even runs out of breath!
> 
> They will be 2 altos, 2 tenors, a baritone and a soprano. They will be sampled with a dark and neutral mouthpiece that can do jazz and classical. The altos and tenors will also have a bright "funky", edgier instrument for the more popular genres... We've only worked on the dark tenor so far, but what we have accomplished sounds delicious!



Woah, that's a big undertaking, sounds quite impressive on paper. I hope things go as planed because that sounds very much like something I, and most everybody else, would be quite interested.


----------



## Eptesicus (Nov 29, 2019)

Junkie Xl brass getting in on the action -



Hendrik-Schwarzer said:


> we’re in the middle of polishing the patches and preparing the walkthrough.
> 
> Just wanted to share this little legato snipped with you…. (please, don’t tell Tom  )
> 
> ...








__





Orchestral Tools: Junkie XL Brass—new update for solo horn and horn sections available


With more than 15 developers working for over 3 years, we are so proud to finally introduce our new player: SINE. Since the first prototype was built, we've been so excited by all the advancements we’ve made. The release of our SINE player only marks the beginning of all the innovations to...




vi-control.net


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## Bollen (Nov 29, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Woah, that's a big undertaking, sounds quite impressive on paper. I hope things go as planed because that sounds very much like something I, and most everybody else, would be quite interested.


Yeah tell me about it... 3 years of research and we're still not quite at the development stage! My partner is an obsessive compulsive perfectionist, he's mad!!! What we do is we record the real instrument playing something that captures a specific behaviour and then we spend months trying to replicate that virtually until it sounds exactly the same... We've had to invent new technologies since traditional methods always yield synthy results... Uncanny valley effect, if you know what I mean...


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 29, 2019)

Eptesicus said:


> Junkie Xl brass getting in on the action -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's always fun when the developers get involved with the community.


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## Jonathan Moray (Nov 29, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Yeah tell me about it... 3 years of research and we're still not quite at the development stage! My partner is an obsessive compulsive perfectionist, he's mad!!! What we do is we record the real instrument playing something that captures a specific behaviour and then we spend months trying to replicate that virtually until it sounds exactly the same... We've had to invent new technologies since traditional methods always yield synthy results... Uncanny valley effect, if you know what I mean...



Sounds exactly like the kind of person I would like to have on a project like this,. Personally I'm really harsh when it comes to criticism of libraries that have imperfections and inconsistencies in them, so someones that's a compulsive perfectionist (and can still get things done) sounds perfect, being a little mad comes with the job of trying to mimic something real with computers I think.

So, is this a more modelled approached, rather than sampled then you would say?

I would also guess, since you're spending so much time and money on R&D, that you're planing on doing more than just woodwinds.

The more you talk about it the more interested I get. Definitely keeping my eyes peeled for more demos in the future.


----------



## juliansader (Nov 29, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Well... We are trying for a different philosophy. Instead of a package that can do some tricks, we want this to be the last instrument you'll ever need. In other words, we want every instrument we release to be as realistic and close to the real instrument as humanly possible. So the instrument will be able to do everything the real instrument can! And I do mean everything...! It even runs out of breath!
> 
> They will be 2 altos, 2 tenors, a baritone and a soprano. They will be sampled with a dark and neutral mouthpiece that can do jazz and classical. The altos and tenors will also have a bright "funky", edgier instrument for the more popular genres... We've only worked on the dark tenor so far, but what we have accomplished sounds delicious!



I really, really hope that you would include a soprano saxophone with a classical timbre. There is already a cornucopia of jazz saxophone libraries and VIs, but not even a single one for classical saxophones!

(This lack of classical saxophone VIs is a wide open -- and potentially profitable -- niche that an intrepid developer can capture.)

Classical saxophones not only use a narrower, darker mouthpiece, but also a bore with lower taper, so the resulting timbre is mellow and very different from that of jazz saxophones, almost wholly different instruments.

For classical music, the soprano saxophone is most important, and it can easily take the place of an oboe in ensembles:


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## Bollen (Nov 29, 2019)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Sounds exactly like the kind of person I would like to have on a project like this,. Personally I'm really harsh when it comes to criticism of libraries that have imperfections and inconsistencies in them, so someones that's a compulsive perfectionist (and can still get things done) sounds perfect, being a little mad comes with the job of trying to mimic something real with computers I think.
> 
> So, is this a more modelled approached, rather than sampled then you would say?
> 
> ...


Not so much money as time really... But to answer your question: it's a different approach. If I had to place it I would say it lies somewhere in between modelling and traditional samples, but more like samples+! Working title is contextual transitioning, but might have to rethink that...


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## I like music (Nov 29, 2019)

Bollen said:


> Not so much money as time really... But to answer your question: it's a different approach. If I had to place it I would say it lies somewhere in between modelling and traditional samples, but more like samples+! Working title is contextual transitioning, but might have to rethink that...



Only Spitfire has the marketing budget to make something like 'contextual transitioning' roll off the tongue. Very much looking forward to what you call it, but more importantly, hearing more examples!


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## Bollen (Nov 29, 2019)

juliansader said:


> Classical saxophones not only use a narrower, darker mouthpiece, but also a bore with lower taper, so the resulting timbre is mellow and very different from that of jazz saxophones, almost wholly different instruments.


That's not necessarily true. In fact, historically they used to use the same mouthpiece. It's only in the 60s I think they diverted. And "classical" sound used to be quite different and beautiful, but in the last 30 years a certain school of sound has become prevalent... A bit like in singing, which is unfortunate...

In any case we're going for that vintage sound for the dark sound.


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## Klesk (Nov 30, 2019)

Flight to Neverland using Audio Imperia Talos Horns. Please note that it is a 12 horn ensemble.


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## Eptesicus (Dec 19, 2019)

I thought people may like to hear the solo horn in JXL brass do this as well -

See, it isn't all crazy processed FFF ;p

Listening through them all, this is already one of my favorite and one of the most consistent examples of this.

This is just the midi file available in this thread with about a minute spent on some dynamic shaping. no reverb or any other effects/plugins.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 1, 2020)

I added the two above posts--Talos and Junkie XL--to my Soundcloud post.

@Jonathan Moray --

Two more Flight to Neverland examples.

-Waverunner Audio 2 French Horns

-Metropolis Ark 1 (9 Horns) -- Note: Midi is on the grid, but some of the shorts stutter. I left that in, because the sloppy shorts timing in round robins is part of the instrument that people should be aware of.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 2, 2020)

@Jonathan Moray --

@jules did an excellent comparison of seven solo flutes. Posted here:





Cinematic Studio Woodwinds


Since what we've seen so far from CSS and CSB, i guess CSW will be having the fundamental instruments and articulations (not those extended techniques). Fundamental instruments wise, i'm referring to piccolo, flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon. Unless Alex intends to have extra bass clarinet or...




vi-control.net





Also, an improved version of Claire Flute playing Leia's theme. Originally posted here by @IdealSequenceG


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 5, 2020)

Eptesicus said:


> I thought people may like to hear the solo horn in JXL brass do this as well -
> 
> See, it isn't all crazy processed FFF ;p
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting. I was hoping we would get some more submission with JXL Brass once people are more comfortable with it.

It would be nice to hear some super soft pianissimo chords with four solo horns using the transpose trick. Also hearing four solo horns using the transpose trick doing unison both soft and loud. Doing unison with solo horns usually doesn't sound all that great most of the time, but sometimes it can actually sound alright.

One thing I feel is that most of the demos, both the official and the users, seem very in love with the top 80% of the library, I want to hear more from the first 10-20% of dynamics. Like the demo you posted.

I've been wondering what JXLB can do that CSB can't. The main selling points for JXLB, except for the big name, is: the section sizes, the 5 dynamic layers, the crazy consistency, and the SINE player.

Between JXLB and CSB the differences I see is section size and player. CSB is very consistent and even though it only has 4 dynamics layers it is still very dynamic and doesn't have a too noticeable x-fade between them. The fff in CSB is just as aggressive as the fff in JXLB from what I've heard.

I've yet to hear anything consistent wise from JXLB that CSB doesn't yet do. And if you ask me, OTs track record has been spotty when it comes to consistency. But it seems, at least listening to the early impressions, that with the help of JXL they have upped their game quite a bit.

From listening to the demos the difference in sound from a6 to a12 is not huge, it's just a different flavour. Although, I do believe doing ensemble the way JXLB does it was the best option if you have to choose. Faking solo horns is easier than faking the true ensemble sound you get from multiple players playing in the same room together.

The player seems good. It has some very nice features and seems pretty efficient, will probably be real good when they've ironed out all the bugs and implemented all the features they have planned.

I find teldex and trackdown are both good spaces for brass.

JXLB seems like it's well thought out, at least from JXLs workflow, and that's what it should be: a product with a vision. Sure it will not fit everybody, but it's not meant to (although they might have claimed it would) but it's a JXL library and will be produced around his needs and wants. It's not just a product with his name on it. I would even say it's more his product than OTs. He's been very involved in the forum, the videos, even live streamed on the launch day, it seems like he's genuinely proud of the product. Or maybe he just signed a bad contract.

I don't own it, but that's my impression from an outside point of view.


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 5, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I added the two above posts--Talos and Junkie XL--to my Soundcloud post.
> 
> @Jonathan Moray --
> 
> ...



Yeah, neither of those sound very good, and they both share a problem that's very common among libraries; they are inconsistent. You can hear there's a change in volume and/or timber when switching articulations; same goes for when using legato in some libraries, there's difference in timber / dynamics between the longs and the legato. This irks me to no end. It's the bane of my existence to have to spend time matching articulations within the same instrument for it to sound somewhat good. And that's not even mentioning matching different instruments to each other.

That's a common problem with the ARKs, it's quite present in a couple of the instruments (ARK1 strings/brass especially...). I understand the need for a small delay before a legato transition or spiccato, and I embrace it because it sounds so much better. It's even workable when the delay is different for different articulations. It's not optimal, but workable. But when the legato is inconsistent among different round robins or different transitions, same as with the inconsistency between volume / timber / velocity / etc, it all becomes to much fiddling and too little music making for my liking.



Land of Missing Parts said:


> @Jonathan Moray --
> 
> @jules did an excellent comparison of seven solo flutes. Posted here:
> 
> ...



Thanks. I'll update the main post.

The vibrato in the Claire series is quite nice, very fragile and emotional.


----------



## Jonathan Moray (Jan 10, 2020)

Here's another comparison. This time it's Oboes.

The track is "The Voice in My Heart" by Evan Call.

I've managed to get a quite a few comparison already, but more are always welcome. I would be the most interested in hearing this played by Infinite Woodwinds.

The demos are mostly straight out-of-the-box, in a couple of them the mic mix i different from the out-of-the-box one, mostly to make some of them a little drier. The only Woodwinds that are somewhat mixed are the SWAM ones. I felt that would be fair since it should be universally understood that you need to do some mixing to get them to sound even decent, or at least you should know that before you consider them. Also another thing to note is that SWAM is very customizable with how it sounds so there's 4 version with different sounds.


----------



## Jonathan Moray (Jan 10, 2020)

Another set:


----------



## Jonathan Moray (Jan 10, 2020)

Another set:


----------



## I like music (Jan 10, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Another set:



Thank you for all of these. First thing that comes to mind is how clean the performance is with SWAM. I used to own them but didn't jive with the timbre. Sounds like it was more of an issue with me not being able to set them properly in an orchestral context. I actually prefer SWAM here more than anything else. BWW performed better than expected.


----------



## I like music (Jan 10, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Another set:



PS I shall try to upload Infinite Oboe doing this line tonight.


----------



## Jonathan Moray (Jan 10, 2020)

I like music said:


> Thank you for all of these. First thing that comes to mind is how clean the performance is with SWAM. I used to own them but didn't jive with the timbre. Sounds like it was more of an issue with me not being able to set them properly in an orchestral context. I actually prefer SWAM here more than anything else. BWW performed better than expected.



The SWAM versions are mixed by me and they do need a little massaging to make them sound alright. But with a little work you can actually make them sound ok. Although, without any adjusting I found that the SWAM A's sound resembled a saxophone at times. But with all the options, and with the fact that there's definitely people who are more skilled at mixing than I am, you could probably make them sound a lot better.

Personally I found Claire and BWW B to be very pleasing in their timber and legato. All that I've heard from the Claire and BWW B series so far has been surprisingly good.
In this example Claire could definitely do with some reverb to sound even better, but nonetheless it still sounds very good dry. I think Claire used the decca and close mics so for it to sit in a orchestral setting you will need to mix it, at least add some reverb, it won't do to just change the mic mix.

It should be noted that both of these are much more of a one-trick pony than most of the other libraries.



I like music said:


> PS I shall try to upload Infinite Oboe doing this line tonight.



That would be very much appreciated.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 10, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> The SWAM versions are mixed by me and they do need a little massaging to make them sound alright. But with a little work you can actually make them sound ok. Although, without any adjusting I found that the SWAM A's sound resembled a saxophone at times. But with all the options, and with the fact that there's definitely people who are more skilled at mixing than I am, you could probably make them sound a lot better.
> 
> Personally I found Claire and BWW B to be very pleasing in their timber and legato. All that I've heard from the Claire and BWW B series so far has been surprisingly good.
> In this example Claire could definitely do with some reverb to sound even better, but nonetheless it still sounds very good dry. I think Claire used the decca and close mics so for it to sit in a orchestral setting you will need to mix it, at least add some reverb, it won't do to just change the mic mix.
> ...


What does CSW stand for in this case?


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## I like music (Jan 10, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> What does CSW stand for in this case?


Hahaha I did notice this but didn't want to cause a riot by bringing attention to it in case people lost their minds!


----------



## Pantonal (Jan 10, 2020)

I like music said:


> Hahaha I did notice this but didn't want to cause a riot by bringing attention to it in case people lost their minds!


Mind lost, so is this a Beta of a much anticipated library? If so, I have to say it sounded quite nice. If not please identify???


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 10, 2020)

Sounds like Cinesamples.


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## Rob (Jan 10, 2020)

it's interesting how old samples, after some due adaptations, still sound good after all these years, like:


----------



## I like music (Jan 10, 2020)

Rob said:


> it's interesting how old samples, after some due adaptations, still sound good after all these years, like:



Shhh. Don't show us these things. They make me feel bad for all the purchases I've made.

That's from the Miroslav Philharmonik?!

Although things like these are great news. Younguns can really get their teeth into this stuff through older and cheaper options.


----------



## Rob (Jan 10, 2020)

I like music said:


> Shhh. Don't show us these things. They make me feel bad for all the purchases I've made.
> 
> That's from the Miroslav Philharmonik?!
> 
> Although things like these are great news. Younguns can really get their teeth into this stuff through older and cheaper options.


yup...  I'm somewhat skeptical on legato transitions... more often than not they give more trouble than good to phrasing. Still believe that good scripted legato works better in a lot of cases.


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 10, 2020)

Whops! Sorry about that! I know you guys are on edge like crack addicts not getting their fix, but this is not Cinematic Studio Woodwinds. It is in fact CineWinds.

I'm trying to get around to changing CSS, CSB and CSW to mean Cinematic Studio Series in my brain but it's a habit since CineSamples has been around longer. CSS and CSB mean Cinematic Studio Strings and Cinematic Studio Brass in my head already, but not CSW. Could be because it is yet to be released. So I will update CineWinds to be just CW, CineBrass to CB, and CineStrings to CS. Until a new library comes and takes those acronyms... like the Century series... God... This is such a headache.


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## darcvision (Jan 10, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's another comparison. This time it's Oboes.
> 
> The track is "The Voice in My Heart" by Evan Call.
> 
> ...



thanks for mockup, i love his score from violet evergarden

edit: about 8dioboe, i think you should turn off legato option, because its pretty buggy


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## N.Caffrey (Jan 10, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Here's another comparison. This time it's Oboes.
> 
> The track is "The Voice in My Heart" by Evan Call.
> 
> ...


What a surprise, didn't think I'd listen to a Violet Evergarden tune. Good soundtrack


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 10, 2020)

stefandy31 said:


> thanks for mockup, i love his score from violet evergarden
> 
> edit: about 8dioboe, i think you should turn off legato option, because its pretty buggy



No problem.

Yes, I agree. It's such a beautiful score. It suites the series perfectly.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 11, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Another set:


The BWW Oboe 1 and BWW Oboe 2 examples--Are these from BWW Revive?


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 11, 2020)

Rob said:


> it's interesting how old samples, after some due adaptations, still sound good after all these years, like:



Thanks. I've added it to the comparison.



Land of Missing Parts said:


> The BWW Oboe 1 and BWW Oboe 2 examples--Are these from BWW Revive?



I will have to check. I'll get back to you on that one.


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 13, 2020)

@Land of Missing Parts it's the old BWW Legacy for both Oboes. I will update the main post so that's clear. I don't think I know anyone who owns Revive. So if anyone wants to contribute please feel free.


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## cloudbuster (Jan 13, 2020)

For completeness sake ... Hummel Concerto with the Embertone Chapman Trumpet (RR, legato, midi unchanged ).


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 13, 2020)

cloudbuster said:


> For completeness sake ... Hummel Concerto with the Embertone Chapman Trumpet (RR, legato, midi unchanged ).



Thanks. I'll add it to the comparison. Although it's slower than the other submissions. Maybe your DAW didn't import the tempo data?

Either way it actually sounds okey for being a completely sampled instrument. I would guess that it is recorded dry and the reverb is added as a IR later, because that would help with how clean it sounds and how clean the legato is.


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## cloudbuster (Jan 13, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Thanks. I'll add it to the comparison. Although it's slower than the other submissions. Maybe your DAW didn't import the tempo data?
> 
> Either way it actually sounds okey for being a completely sampled instrument. I would guess that it is recorded dry and the reverb is added as a IR later, because that would help with how clean it sounds and how clean the legato is.


Thanks for pointing this out. Here's the dry version with the correct tempo (146bpm).


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 13, 2020)

cloudbuster said:


> Thanks for pointing this out. Here's the dry version with the correct tempo (146bpm).



Great. I'll update the post.

I like the sound of that trumpet, very sweet and intimate. Is that the loudest it goes? Is it made for more soft and emotional lines or can it do bolder and louder lines as well?


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## floego (Jan 13, 2020)

Hummel Concerto with NI Session Horns Standard, single articulation preset. 

Section setup: Trumpet 1/ Trumpet 2, and reverb with early reflection B setting. I adjusted velocity in the midi file to make it fit better with the library.


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## cloudbuster (Jan 13, 2020)

Jonathan Moray said:


> Great. I'll update the post.
> 
> I like the sound of that trumpet, very sweet and intimate. Is that the loudest it goes? Is it made for more soft and emotional lines or can it do bolder and louder lines as well?


It gets a wee bit louder and bolder still but noch that much, this is one smooth trumpet and I like it that way.
(I'm on the road right now, have to catch a flight and already folded up everything but I can put up another track when I'm back home in a couple days.)


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## Jonathan Moray (Jan 13, 2020)

cloudbuster said:


> It gets a wee bit louder and bolder still but noch that much, this is one smooth trumpet and I like it that way.
> (I'm on the road right now, have to catch a flight and already folded up everything but I can put up another track when I'm back home in a couple days.)



Thought so. Seems it's aimed at a more niche and specific task and is not meant as a all-purpose instrument. Although, listening to the demos it seems to excel at what it's meant for. And for $30 it's pretty much a no-brainier if you're looking for a sweet sounding more mellow trumpet.



floego said:


> Hummel Concerto with NI Session Horns Standard, single articulation preset.
> 
> Section setup: Trumpet 1/ Trumpet 2, and reverb with early reflection B setting. I adjusted velocity in the midi file to make it fit better with the library.



Thanks, added it to the comparison.

Not liking this one. I know it's not really made for orchestral work and might work better in another genre of music, but something about the short notes and tone is not to my liking.


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## Loïc D (Jan 13, 2020)

Some tries at Hook with JXL (couldn't miss one of my favorite OST).
I used the A4 patch then the A6 patch.

Each file has 4 cues :
- Sustain with legato activated, midi not modified
- Marcato Long with legato, midi not modified
- Marcato Short with legato, midi not modified
- Mixed articulations (Marcato Long + Short + Staccato), mod CC modified.

To me Marcato shorts works the best out of the box.

I've tried the Hummel trumpet too with JXL & SStB, but the outcome is awful unless I rework the notes duration & CC massage. So I didn't post (yet).


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## Consona (May 31, 2020)

Rob said:


> more on the finesse side, here's VSL cornet, one of my favorite trumpets:


Is this the standard or full version?


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## GtrString (May 31, 2020)

This comparison reminds me of the old Try Sound, where you could play with different libraries. Does that stil exist? Anyway, that's how I discovered ProjectSam Symphobia, glad to hear it is still competitive. SampleModelling sounds also like a good match to Symphobia in tone and fidelity, I definitely liked what I heard in these comparisons. To be honest, I didn't like much else. Good stuff!


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## Norrland Samples (Sep 10, 2021)

Hi! Found this old thread and just could't resist putting our Solo Trumpet to "the Hummel-test". 🙂 100% un-tweaked midi. I don't know if maybe someone could add it to the list.. Anyway, hope you like it! 

Viktor,
Norrland Samples


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## Jonathan Moray (Sep 10, 2021)

Norrland Samples said:


> Hi! Found this old thread and just could't resist putting our Solo Trumpet to "the Hummel-test". 🙂 100% un-tweaked midi. I don't know if maybe someone could add it to the list.. Anyway, hope you like it!
> 
> Viktor,
> Norrland Samples


I'll add you.

It's the first I hear of this library and of you guys as a sample company. The trumpet sounds very nice. And for the price, it sounds amazing because apparently, it's free which is very generous.


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## Erik (Sep 10, 2021)

Oboe comparison #2



Westgate
XSamples
VSL Oboe 2 (Viennese)
VSL Oboe 1 (French)
Orchestral Tools Sine
Orchestral Tools WW Exp B
Infinite woodwinds Oboe1
Sofia Oboe 1
Sonivox Oboe solo


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## Erik (Sep 10, 2021)

Herewith the Hummel Trumpet concerto. VSL Synchron Brass, resp. tr.1 - tr.2.


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## Pantonal (Sep 10, 2021)

Norrland Samples said:


> Hi! Found this old thread and just could't resist putting our Solo Trumpet to "the Hummel-test". 🙂 100% un-tweaked midi. I don't know if maybe someone could add it to the list.. Anyway, hope you like it!
> 
> Viktor,
> Norrland Samples


Hi Viktor,

I hear a lot of room in this recording. Has reverb been added or is that baked into the samples?


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## Jonathan Moray (Sep 10, 2021)

Erik said:


> Oboe comparison #2
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm glad to hear some comparisons from Westgate and XSamples. They are rare.

Did you change the midi for any of the libraries or do they all use the exact same midi?


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## Norrland Samples (Sep 10, 2021)

Pantonal said:


> Hi Viktor,
> 
> I hear a lot of room in this recording. Has reverb been added or is that baked into the samples?


Hi! It's mostly added. It's one of the IRs included in the instrument. (it's the "default" one) I actually dialed it down a bit, for comparisons sake. I should probably have gone even lower.

Viktor


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## Erik (Sep 10, 2021)

Jonathan Moray said:


> I'm glad to hear some comparisons from Westgate and XSamples. They are rare.
> 
> Did you change the midi for any of the libraries or do they all use the exact same midi?


I always fine tune as much as possible. Most libraries differ in dynamic range so I need to adjust to have a bit equal expression.


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