# Novak Djokovic falls just short of tennis history.



## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 12, 2021)

As a Federer fan, I have to admit that I feel some sort of relief, yet Novak's achievements and toughness throughout his years can't be denied. He'll most likely go down in sport as the greatest tennis player of all time, and we can only respect and admire that. 

On the other hand, congrats to Medvedev for picking up his first (I'm sure of many) grand slams!! 

Short highlights:


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## musicalweather (Sep 12, 2021)

Watched this match, too, today. Was really rooting for Djokovic, but he never seemed to get his footing in this match. He got emotional at points, but I thought he was gracious and humble in defeat. Medvedev played some fierce tennis! So many (seemingly) effortless aces! They both should be congratulated. Djokovic's three Grand Slam victories in a single year is just incredible.


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## Technostica (Sep 12, 2021)

I caught the last two games and was shocked at how unsporting some of the so called fans were. 
Never heard such a racket during play that was clearly aimed to put off the underdog. 
The crowd were much more civilised during the final yesterday. 
That was a staggering achievement by the young woman who played the qualifying rounds.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 12, 2021)

musicalweather said:


> Watched this match, too, today. Was really rooting for Djokovic, but he never seemed to get his footing in this match. He got emotional at points, but I thought he was gracious and humble in defeat. Medvedev played some fierce tennis! So many (seemingly) effortless aces! They both should be congratulated. Djokovic's three Grand Slam victories in a single year is just incredible.


Yes, his press conference really earned my appreciation and respect. Always gives full credit to the opponent and is very humble. I'm sure we'll get to see the longer highlights later, but Med must've played lights out.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 12, 2021)

Technostica said:


> I caught the last two games and was shocked at how unsporting some of the so called fans were.
> Never heard such a racket during play that was clearly aimed to put off the underdog.
> The crowd were much more civilised during the final yesterday.
> That was a staggering achievement by the young woman who played the qualifying rounds.


Yes, even on that match point when he was tossing the ball, you could hear the boos.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 12, 2021)

I watched the Pre-Match Interview and noticed that Djokovic appeared tense, while Medvedev looked very relaxed. So I think the pressure got to Novak. I'm a huge Federer fan, so I didn't cry.

When Medvedev was serving in the final points, I thought the New York fans were really disrespectful, I've never seen this in tennis.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 12, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> I watched the Pre-Match Interview and noticed that Djokovic appeared tense, while Medvedev looked very relaxed. So I think the pressure got to Novak. I'm a huge Federer fan, so I didn't cry.
> 
> When Medvedev was serving in the final points, I thought the New York fans were really disrespectful, I've never seen this in tennis.


Indeed. Booing during a serve is just nuts.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 12, 2021)

I wanted him to win, but the combination of Medvedev and that pressure... it's not surprising that he wasn't able to get it going.

Meanwhile, how about Raducanu - and Fernandez for that matter! They're both amazing.

Among many other things, it doesn't seem possible to recover from hitting those monster forehands as quickly as Raducanu does. Her footwork is insane.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 12, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Indeed. Booing during a serve is just nuts.


Even the chair umpire appeared helpless, like saying, "Sorry Daniil, there's nothing I can do."


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## emilio_n (Sep 12, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> As a Federer fan, I have to admit that I feel some sort of relief, yet Novak's achievements and toughness throughout his years can't be denied. He'll most likely go down in sport as the greatest tennis player of all time, and we can only respect and admire that.
> 
> On the other hand, congrats to Medvedev for picking up his first (I'm sure of many) grand slams!!
> 
> Short highlights:



Don’t forget Rafa Nadal. 
but yes, I think Novak will join to that club soon.


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## jmauz (Sep 12, 2021)

I think a lot of people don't quite understand just how hard it is to win the calendar slam. Back when Laver did it 3 of the 4 slams were on grass AND it was the era of serve and volley tennis (i.e. short points) so overall the sport was much less grueling than it is nowadays. 

Knowing this makes Djokovic's achievement even more impressive even though he lost today. He's not done yet - he'll win at least 1 more major before he retires...probably more. I think in the grand scheme of things he's the GOAT. Federer is the most talented but Joker is the complete package. Before you bring up Rafa - he wouldn't even be in the discussion if it wasn't for his 13 French Open titles. He's not as well rounded a player as Joker and Fed.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2021)

If it weren't for Nadal's 13 French Open titles and seven other grand slams - some of which included beating Djokovic and Federer? A career grand slam? All the other titles?

Check this Wikipedia link out and see whether you really agree with yourself, jmauz.  They have sections on his head-to-head records against several top players, including Federer and Djokovic.

Those three guys have been at the top for a very long time.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Those three guys have been at the top for a very long time.


I'd also argue that the three are the greatest of all time, without favoring one over the others. Of course, if Novak goes on to win 21, 22, 23, or more Grand Slams, the conversation will be very different.

This leads me to this question. Will this level of consistency ever be seen again? Despite the fact that the current generation has produced several outstanding players, there is a serious lack of consistency.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> Will this level of consistency ever be seen again? Despite the fact that the current generation has produced several outstanding players, there is a serious lack of consistency.



I get the feeling it isn't all that easy.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I get the feeling it isn't all that easy.


No, it isn't easy for damn sure, but that wasn't really the point. The question is, do players live in a different world today? If you get what I'm saying. We're talking about inconsistency. Is there something different about the new generation's attitude?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> No, it isn't easy for damn sure, but that wasn't really the point. The question is, do players live in a different world today? If you get what I'm saying. We're talking about inconsistency. Is there something different about the new generation's attitude?


I haven't seen any reason to think so, not at the world-class level.

Have you?


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## emilio_n (Sep 13, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> No, it isn't easy for damn sure, but that wasn't really the point. The question is, do players live in a different world today? If you get what I'm saying. We're talking about inconsistency.


I think we were lucky to see Federer, Nadal and Novak playing together. I specially like the elegance playing of Federer and the fighting spirit of Nadal. Both looks people with strong values regarding FairPlay. Novak is an incredible player too.

There are some new players in the circuit very promising so we will have good tennis for a while.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I haven't seen any reason to think so, not at the world-class level.
> 
> Have you?


Seriously, you haven't? Something isn't normal with the present generation when the same finalists have been in nearly every major tournament over the past 20 years.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> I think we were lucky to see Federer, Nadal and Novak playing together. I specially like the elegance playing of Federer and the fighting spirit of Nadal. Both looks people with strong values regarding FairPlay. Novak is an incredible player too.
> 
> There are some new players in the circuit very promising so we will have good tennis for a while.


I am a huge Federer fan, so much so that I dedicated to him my piece: Game, Set and Match. But I don't think it's normal that there isn't a younger player who can come in and kick their ass. I only wished there was a fresh player with a unique style, as when Federer surprisingly defeated Sampras and became the world's most dominant player not long after.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> Seriously, you haven't? Something isn't normal with the present generation when the same finalists have been in nearly every major tournament over the past 20 years.


Who knows, but to me it looks like the big three really are that much better than everyone else. You know how they often compare players''attributes before matches - forehand, backhand, serve, etc.? Those guys usually have advantages in several categories.

I mean, there are players like Kyrgios (sp?) who you'd think could win more based on their raw talent. Others have come and gone, like Roddick (who won the US Open one year but no more majors). Raonic is another, although I think he's still playing. Peter Korda - who has a son who's really good, one daughter who won the women's golf in the Olympics, and another daughter who's also a professional golfer.

But while it's very unusual for there to be three evenly matched, dominant players in any sport, I don't automatically see that as an indictment of the next generation.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2021)

And look at the women. Serena has been overpowering everyone else for even longer.

But I'm really excited about Raducanu and Fernandez. They're both great already.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> I am a huge Federer fan, so much so that I dedicated to him my piece: Game, Set and Match. But I don't think it's normal that there isn't a younger player who can come in and kick their ass. I only wished there was a fresh player with a unique style, as when Federer surprisingly defeated Sampras and became the world's most dominant player not long after.


Federer is one of the most graceful players ever. He just floats around the court.

And in general I like watching players with 1-handed backhands more than 2-handers. Wawrinka was great too.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Who knows, but to me it looks like the big three really are that much better than everyone else. You know how they often compare players''attributes before matches - forehand, backhand, serve, etc.? Those guys usually have advantages in several categories.


You're proving my argument. Djokovic was hammered by superior players when he first reached the ATP scene. He had the right mentality though, and he continued to improve himself, which requires a lot of willpower. Why can't the new generation follow in their footsteps?


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

Imagine watching the Stanely Cup Finals between the Montreal Canadiens and the Minnesota Wild for the past 20 years. Wouldn't you wonder what was going on with the other teams?


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> But I'm really excited about Raducanu and Fernandez. They're both great already.


I'm really quite pleased, particularly with Fernandez, a Canadian. However, as amazing and mature as they are now, the true test of *consistency* will be how they bounce back after losing and facing media scrutiny. Again coming back to my point.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 13, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> You're proving my argument. Djokovic was hammered by superior players when he first reached the ATP scene. He had the right mentality though, and he continued to improve himself, which requires a lot of willpower. Why can't the new generation follow in their footsteps?


I see what you're saying.

Well, who knows. If you're that good you're already one in a million, no matter who you are. And it all feeds on itself, in other words winning begets more winning due to confidence, experience, and who knows what else.

As to your Stanley Cup comparison, teams do dominate sports sometimes. UCLA won the NCAA basketball tournament 11 times in a row, and that's single elimination.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

Yes, but dynasties (in professional sports) often last three to four years.


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## TW5011 (Sep 13, 2021)

I think we'll see other players with that kind of consistency. Federer raised the bar, and Nadal and Djokovic rose to it (and Djokovic yesterday learned about the pressure of doing something for the first time as opposed to catching up). Now that the bar is raised, some players (with the drive and resources) will aim that high and reach there. I wouldn't bet on there being 3 at once again, but it will likely happen again with one or two at a time. It just takes time for players brought up in that mindset, plus it's really rare anyway.

On a side note, it's probably good that Nadal and Djokovic rose to the new standard, or Federer might've ended up with close to 30 grand slam titles... 

Several of the young players have the skills to be an all-time great, like Kyrgios, Korda, Alcaraz, Thiem, Medvedev. But the key will be how hungry they are to put in all the work required. It took years for Federer to harness his talent. Nadal started great on clay but had to improve on other surfaces. Djokovic was somewhat mentally "weak" his first few years, but obviously got really strong. It's a huge cost in time and lifestyle to get to that level, which is why some have the potential but don't (like Marat Safin).


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

TW5011 said:


> But the key will be how hungry they are to put in all the work required.


That is the point. And I believe I'm not alone in thinking this when I hear expert analysts and ex-players like Mcenroe make the same point.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

I remember once hearing Pete Sampras responding to when people complimented him on his God-given talent, he would respond by saying, "I worked my ass off!"


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 13, 2021)

I still remember watching Fed vs. Roddick in the Wimby 09 final, and it was Fed's trophy ceremony that inspired me to really start playing. Hoping he can make one last push and win one more Wimby before he retires.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I still remember watching Fed vs. Roddick in the Wimby 09 final, and it was Fed's trophy ceremony that inspired me to really start playing. Hoping he can make one last push and win one more Wimby before he retires.


Cool. I began playing about the same time and have since taken millions of lessons, and Federer has always been my greatest inspiration. He will always be the GOAT in my eyes.


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## Harry (Sep 13, 2021)

Has he had his vaccinations yet, Djokovic?


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## Jish (Sep 13, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> I only wished there was a fresh player with a unique style, as when Federer surprisingly defeated Sampras and became the world's most dominant player not long after.


I remember that one- now _that_ was a match for a variety of reasons we aren't going to be seeing again anytime soon. They were using almost identical frames as well (Pete with his legendary 85sq in St Vincent strung at roughly 70lbs- Roger with the same frame at 95sq but with dramatically lower string tension). If you really geek out and examine some of the numbers from that specific match you'll find it being one of the absolute 'closest' of any grand slam match in the last two decades- the winners, unforced errors, faults, errors committed during key moments- the 'passing of the baton' happened in _that_ match, but as covered as it was during the time it was all somehow still, understated. Almost like a trauma.

Not everyone likes the notion, or simply views it as 'unfair' in a historical context, but I think adding a fifth slam (likely one in China, but possibly elsewhere) could actually help the sport long term. I see what you are saying Guy about the current state of younger players, and certainly agree to a large extent- one thing I feel oddly certain about is that the 'Big 3' of Fed/Rafa/DJ in raw dominance and performance is something that is likely never going to be repeated again. They were just so conquering for so long that it makes the rest of the guys of the younger generation appear as though they were almost caught in a form of arrested development at the highest tournaments of the game. I don't think 'hunger' or work ethic has really had anything to do with that, however, atleast in a meaningful way that would have really altered the history. Any big history to be made by current our future players will always be seen as doing so in light of the inevitable age, decline and retirement of the storied 'Big 3'.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 13, 2021)

I'm not sure what factor or 'X' factor makes them so exceptional, but early in their careers, all of the 'Big 3' lost a lot of matches, and I don't think anyone expected any of them to become what they became. Wayne Gretzky, for example, was a superstar nearly from the start of his NHL career, same for Mario Lemieux. Okay, I'll admit that once you reach the ATP circuit, the progression takes longer, but still. So that something must have happened along the road for them to improve soooo much. Is it their mindset? Discipline? I don't know, and we'll probably never know, but I'm convinced it's not just an innate skill. Back to my original point, I believe that the new generation lacks consistency in some way.


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## Jish (Sep 14, 2021)

Well, in truth I don't follow hockey so any subtleties re Gretzky or Lemieux are going to be lost on me- however, I can still see the 'bigger' point there and can try to respond to that.

Basically what we are talking about or around comes down to the grand slams and the time at No. 1 ranking, as these two data points are given far more value and prestige (perhaps excessively) over other potential markers of achievement. Federer won his first slam at 22- a bit later compared to pistol's at only 19 (which is one of my favorite Sampras tournaments to this day). Nadal like Pete also won his 1st slam at 19- and Djokovic his at 20 or 21. 

I don't see losing x number of matches early on in the run up to a player's first slam as a sign of much of anything. What time and statistics seems to deem as actually meaningful from a career-length perspective is the age that a player (especially males, for whatever reason) captures that first slam, and the amount of time that occurs in the interval between the next several, and not just one. 

I don't know exactly what the 'x' factor is either that makes these player's stand out, but man- I remember seeing Roger play circles time and again around his contemporaries (Hewitt, Roddick, Safin) and it was so obvious that he had something that just set him apart- Djokovic as well after his 08' win and Rafa from 05' at the French. Pete at 19 actually made some of the men at the Open in 90' he played look like boys and was maybe the most striking early example. I don't know what 'it' is, or if it is 'innate' but I absolutely can say you must be born with it, and that hard work in the most formative years is only where it begins.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2021)

Jish said:


> I don't see losing x number of matches early on in the run up to a player's first slam as a sign of much of anything. What time and statistics seems to deem as actually meaningful from a career-length perspective is the age that a player (especially males, for whatever reason) captures that first slam, and the amount of time that occurs in the interval between the next several, and not just one.


The point I was trying to make was that Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic were all rather ordinary players early on, more Federer and Novak, but Federer is the best example, he got hammered by Agassi in their first 3 meetings, and it wasn't until 2003 that Agassi became a sitting duck for Federer. So he clearly improved, right? It was the changes he made that made the difference. The same thing happened to Djokovic, they adjusted, they believed, so it's puzzling to me why no one, not a single person from today's generation couldn't even come close to replicating this. I only hope Medvedev can overtake Djokovic as the world's best player before he retires, otherwise, he will become No 1 only by default.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 14, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> The point I was trying to make was that Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic were all rather ordinary players early on, more Federer and Novak, but Federer is the best example, he got hammered by Agassi in their first 3 meetings, and it wasn't until 2003 that Agassi became a sitting duck for Federer. So he clearly improved, right? It was the changes he made that made the difference. The same thing happened to Djokovic, they adjusted, they believed, so it's puzzling to me why no one, not a single person from today's generation couldn't even come close to replicating this. I only hope Medvedev can overtake Djokovic as the world's best player before he retires, otherwise, he will become No 1 only by default.


I think it might have something to do with the fact that today's players are naturally even fitter, stronger, and just more intense than before, so it makes it that much harder to stand out among the crowd. I'm also thinking that the next gen probably encountered the Big 3 along the way in many tourneys, who of course have such great experience and know how to handle tough situations. So until the Big 3 retire, I think it'll be difficult for one or two of the next gen to really stand out among the rest. But we'll just have to see!


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2021)

It's a never-ending discussion, with enough material for a thesis, but the conversation was interesting. One thing is certain: the Big 3's era is coming to an end.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 14, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> o it's puzzling to me why no one, not a single person from today's generation couldn't even come close to replicating thi


No one has come close to replicating it in any generation, Guy!

By definition, exceptional people are very rare. How many Newtons and Einsteins have there been? Bachs, Mozarts, and Beethovens? Miles Davises?

The important thing is that human endeavors get the support they need to produce great results. It takes millions of people working on anything to come up with the successes, and we have to expect the failures.

Some philosophy for a Tuesday morning.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 14, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> No one has come close to replicating it in any generation, Guy!
> 
> By definition, exceptional people are very rare. How many Newtons and Einsteins have there been? Bachs, Mozarts, and Beethovens? Miles Davises?


Nick, I believe we've covered pretty much everything on this subject; I'm not sure I can contribute much more. I'm just looking at it from a different perspective.


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## Jish (Sep 14, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> The point I was trying to make was that Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic were all rather ordinary players early on, more Federer and Novak, but Federer is the best example, he got hammered by Agassi in their first 3 meetings, and it wasn't until 2003 that Agassi became a sitting duck for Federer. So he clearly improved, right?


I see better where you are coming from-- yes, of course he improved. In RF's case it is fairly well established now that his mentality very early on paled somewhat in comparison to Pete or Rafa (both of who were known at early ages to be unusually strong in this aspect, as well as in others) and that he had a tendency towards frustration and anger. Of the big 3, his 'mental' game improved most eventually over the years, with Novak behind him (who seems to channel his anger much more like McEnroe- that is to say, he somehow benefits from getting it 'out' of system.)


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## Jish (Sep 14, 2021)

At the end of the day, going back to the 'innate' concept- these people all share in common being born with a combination of several distinct strengths, and weakness that were possible to be improved, or atleast compensated by said strengths. You are born with the potential for Federer's forehand, Pistol's timeless service, Djokovic's backhand/movement/hand-eye, Rafa's forehand/physical potential, ect. On some base level, it's actually about as innate as you can get.

In terms of external factors- they can do a better job at making the damn surfaces less homogenized.
When Borg kept winning Wimbledon when it still played fast, and Roland Garros on clay, it remains one of tennis' most incredible (and most understated) feats to this day. Speed and ball bounce height of surface would somewhat dramatically change things, and help produce a better variety of winners in the future. And again I'm inclined to support the idea of a fifth slam in Asia.

If factors like these are not strongly in consideration for change, by those with the actual influence and power to make it happen...we'll be looking at a pretty significant decrease in viewership and overall interest from the public, once the 'Big 3' and Serena are gone, without a doubt.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 26, 2021)

Have any of you tennis enthusiasts seen the Laver Cup? What are your thoughts?

It was refreshing to watch some world-class tennis without the "Big 3" for the first time in a long time.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 26, 2021)

Guy Bacos said:


> Have any of you tennis enthusiasts seen the Laver Cup? What are your thoughts?
> 
> It was refreshing to watch some world-class tennis without the "Big 3" for the first time in a long time.


I haven't watched any of the matches, but I'm glad the event is still happening! And nice to see Roger there as well


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