# Help save Sibelius



## sbkp

> In July 2012, Avid Technology announced the closure of Sibelius UK, home of the Sibelius development and support team. Avid claims this will make no difference to Sibelius. Nothing could be further from the truth.



Whether you're a Sibelius user or not, this is a dreadful outcome for one of the top notation programs in the world. You'll either be affected because Sibelius development will deteriorate or stop or because your notation program will have less (or at least lower quality) competition.

A page has started on Facebook which is at present already about a quarter of the way to as many "Likes" as the official Sibelius page. Please join in and support the call to Avid to sell Sibelius to people who will keep it vibrant instead of merely on life support.

http://www.savesibelius.com or http://www.facebook.com/SaveSibelius


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## sbkp

If you're not the facebook-y type, you can read here:

Sibelius is a music composing/arranging application designed, maintained and supported by the Sibelius Team in the UK Office. The UK Office is closing, and the programmers and designers who have made Sibelius a major success will not be able to further develop the best computer based composing/arranging application in existence today.

With the release of Version 7, Avid can reap profits to shore up its Wall St losses for many years from product sales without any ongoing development or technical support. However, Sibelius is far more than just code, it lives and breathes in the hearts and minds of its inventors and developers. Remove them, and Sibelius eventually becomes roadkill.

We implore those of you who use this marvelous composing application to write the board here:
http://ir.avid.com/contactBoard.cfm

The direct email addresses for the CEO and other Avid VP/Directors are:

Chris Gahagan (Senior Vice President of Products) 
who we believe actually closed the Sibelius London office. 
His email is: [email protected]

Gary Greenfield (CEO): [email protected]

Martin Kloiber (VP Live Systems and Consoles at Avid Technology): [email protected]

Dana Ruzicka (VP Strategic Alliances at Avid Technology): [email protected]

Ian Bruce (Worldwide Director of Corporate Communications): [email protected]

and the AVID Blog:
http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid/ar ... unity.aspx

Registered offices of Avid worldwide including Fax numbers: http://www.avid.com/us/about-avid/office-locations

Based on its latest published figures, Avid is in financial trouble. Right after the most recent stockholders meeting, all the Avid board of directors sold significant shares of stock, clearly a co-ordinated sale. Simultaneously, several key executives resigned, including Vice President, CFO and CTO. Avid is short of cash and desperately trying to shore up its liquidity with reckless cost cutting.

Sibelius is viable as a standalone company, but without sustained pressure from its users, Avid will try to run it offshore, most likely in the Ukraine. This short-term thinking is solely to ease Avid through its present cash crisis, not in any way for the benefit of Sibelius users. In fact it will effectively destroy Sibelius.

Please help us to persuade Avid that it is in everyone’s best interests for them to sell Sibelius to a third party as soon as possible. This will still ease its cash crisis, but will ensure Sibelius lives on in safe hands.

Save Sibelius campaign contact info:

Derek Williams
[email protected]
+44 (0)785 760 2004
+44 (0)131 208 3668
Fax: +44 (0)131 777 2573


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## nikolas

I'll bump this for everyone to see! And I'll keep bumping, although, to be honest I'm not 100% sure it will make a difference. The twins who created sibelius tried twice to buy it off AVID and AVID said not... :(


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## jamwerks

It's about a year since version 7 came out. You'd think that a version 8 would be ready.


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## sbkp

Sibelius has been updated every 2 years for the last many versions (since 1999). Even if Avid weren't shooting themselves in the head, I wouldn't have expected until 2013.


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## sbkp

nikolas @ Sun Jul 22 said:


> I'll bump this for everyone to see! And I'll keep bumping, although, to be honest I'm not 100% sure it will make a difference. The twins who created sibelius tried twice to buy it off AVID and AVID said not... :(



Yeah, I don't have much hope for this path. :(


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## synergy543

I know when Metacreations sold Bryce, Eric Wenger (the creator) tried to get it back but was unable to. He was very disturbed as there was nothing he could do to carry it forward due to legal and monetary issues in the corporate world. So he went off in another direction to create new software (Metasynth, Voyager, etc.).

Corporations are NOT people. They have no conscious or empathy. Yet, for tax and political donation purposes, they are treated as people. This changes the landscape of the world as we knew it.


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## nikolas

I do have a question, though: Is code bind by copyright laws? Because copyright is for art works, and for the end result, while patents are for ideas and not how it happens. I'm quite curious on how a lawyer would be answering this one: Can the twins use their ideas and a different code to redo Sibelius again?


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## Daryl

So I think it is obvious what's happening now.

http://www.globallogic.com.ua/?option=c ... obid=50961

D


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## dcoscina

Daryl @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> So I think it is obvious what's happening now.
> 
> http://www.globallogic.com.ua/?option=c ... obid=50961
> 
> D



I know my post will probably be deleted but the only word I have to say to Avid is:

pigfuckers.

EDIT- I hope the Finn brothers or some other company takes off where Sibelius started. Clearly Avid just wants to consumerize their programs like Apple did with Garageband to make it more consumable by the masses (iOS). Pity. We seem to live in times where everything is sold on the cheap. I see this as yet another sign of our declining time as a species. But that's just me....


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## kdm

dcoscina @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> We seem to live in times where everything is sold on the cheap. I see this as yet another sign of our declining time as a species. But that's just me....



It's not just you. 

I am speaking at a film/media/visual arts conference this fall on this very topic - from the approach of inspiring media professionals to value creativity, innovation and art, rather than simply succumbing to faster/cheaper pressure from the consumer world.

It certainly does not look good for the future of Sibelius.


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## Daryl

I think that thoughts of creativity is being watered down at every level. I have had meetings where I was told that I should make my music more generic and general. Somehow the "suits" have forgotten that the very reason I'm successful is that I my music is not general or generic. :roll: 

I think that in the case of Avid, nobody high enough up in the company hierarchy has been able to convince the bean counters that one programming team is not the same as another one. Unfortunately. :( 

D


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## kdm

An unfortunately pervasive concept in both the arts (mainly music) industry and product development world is that it is more profitable and less risky to repeat, repackage and revamp someone else's success. Unfortunately, it is in fact less risky to do so, but it also obviously degrades the creative advancement of the world around us. 

The goal is to sell to the largest, and usually, lowest common denominator - basic consumers that have no serious interest in art or creativity, but like to think that what they buy is "innovative" or creative - hence a cursory glance at creativity is offered, but not enough to challenge or worse, surpass the level of that consumer base.


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## synergy543

Daryl @ Sun Aug 19 said:


> So I think it is obvious what's happening now.
> 
> http://www.globallogic.com.ua/?option=c ... obid=50961
> 
> D



Damn! Why don't the Finn brother just apply for the job and settle the score like real men?

Come on Ben and Johnathan... Just do it!


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## dcoscina

Well it looks like Avid will be out of business in a couple years so I'm sure the Finns could resurrect their code for ELGAR, a new notation program that would bear a striking resemblance to Sibelius. .


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## ZeroZero

Slightly off topic, but people do know that the whole Sibelius design team (more or less) transferred to Steinberg. They have just delivered version 1 of Dorico. Although IMO Dorico is not ready for prime time yet, it's not integrated with Cubase and certain things it cannot do like chord symbols (I believe) and....it's pricey. I do have full confidence that Dorico will hit the mark eventually and become even more powerful than Sibelius, especially with the support of the high quality developers at Steinberg. From what I understand _some_ of its engraving features are better than Sibelius, in some peoples opinions. I do not know as I have not yet downloaded the trial, I am waiting for a big update first.

Before I get flamed, I do respect that others might simply want Sibelius to continue.

Z


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## jduesenb

ZeroZero said:


> Slightly off topic, but people do know that the whole Sibelius design team (more or less) transferred to Steinberg. They have just delivered version 1 of Dorico. Although IMO Dorico is not ready for prime time yet, it's not integrated with Cubase and certain things it cannot do like chord symbols (I believe) and....it's pricey. I do have full confidence that Dorico will hit the mark eventually and become even more powerful than Sibelius, especially with the support of the high quality developers at Steinberg. From what I understand _some_ of its engraving features are better than Sibelius, in some peoples opinions. I do not know as I have not yet downloaded the trial, I am waiting for a big update first.
> 
> Before I get flamed, I do respect that others might simply want Sibelius to continue.
> 
> Z


I find this thread strange. Started in 2012, that's 5 years ago - Sib. is still there. I just got Sibelius 8.0 and found it to be VERY flaky. But I had to pay for a support subscription, so I'll keep on with it if I can get it to work at all.

Dorico looks like an app with a very good set of features, but a lot of these "features" are "not yet implemented" and the manuals are terrible so it's very difficult to figure out exactly how to use some of it. 

The support engineers for both these companies are trying very hard, I'll give them that. I get the feeling that both products are in trouble and I hope at least ONE of them survives...

I just took a gamble and ordered a "cross-grade" from sibelius to Dorico, which cuts the price by about 50%. 
That's a reasonable price for this product I think.


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## mducharme

Can this be removed as a sticky thread? This is so old now, I don't see the point in this appearing at the top of the list.


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## mazikg

jduesenb said:


> I find this thread strange. Started in 2012, that's 5 years ago - Sib. is still there. I just got Sibelius 8.0 and found it to be VERY flaky. But I had to pay for a support subscription, so I'll keep on with it if I can get it to work at all.
> 
> Dorico looks like an app with a very good set of features, but a lot of these "features" are "not yet implemented" and the manuals are terrible so it's very difficult to figure out exactly how to use some of it.
> 
> The support engineers for both these companies are trying very hard, I'll give them that. I get the feeling that both products are in trouble and I hope at least ONE of them survives...
> 
> I just took a gamble and ordered a "cross-grade" from sibelius to Dorico, which cuts the price by about 50%.
> That's a reasonable price for this product I think.


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## mazikg

Hi Folks,

i really enjoyed using Sib back in the early 2000's tried Igor and some other types, however I prefer the old school.

At that time Avid was free, Sony was giving it away, and it had all the virtual effects, whatever the current "lingo" is for that...

Also Pro tools was an entirely separate program, and I enjoyed using that also, logic audio...still

I really am surprised at the state of affairs. If this remains, I will just stay with pencil and pad.

The feature set of Sib at that time I think it was 3.1 or something was amazing, i don't think I could ask for anything else.

I am wondering do these knew programs write the music fir you?

I am a software dev and am familiar with various code bases floating around, and the new paradigms, as relates circle C and P.

I have diligently tried to purchase a perpetual licence and can't reach anyone. Perhaps this COvid thing has sucked the wind to of their sails, that would be a shame, though I am totally unfamiliar with what Sibelius actually is now???

I am looking for a dependable company, with a interface with old school types of inputs, basically writing out the score...

Are there any other types that exist now that are like that, competitors?

I really would like to buy Sibelius, so if there is some Sib sales person listening contact me please.

I have a decent budget and look to expand from notation, to a possible integrated DAWS expansion over the next year.

here i am "Mazik-g"...life is a stage.

And I really support this thread and Sibelius, and hope it is healthy and going strong!!!

sincerely,

M


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## mducharme

mazikg said:


> And I really support this thread and Sibelius, and hope it is healthy and going strong!!!



Sibelius has moved to a yearly subscription model, and to save development costs they are doing the bare minimum of feature development every year, as little as they feel they can do to get people to renew the yearly subscription, and no more than that.


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## ReleaseCandidate

mazikg said:


> I have diligently tried to purchase a perpetual licence and can't reach anyone.



I hope that link works: https://shop.avid.com/ccrz__ProductDetails?viewState=DetailView&isCSRFlow=true&sku=SBDYNA1001&cclcl=fr
You can buy the perpetual Sibelius (you want Ultimate, Sibelius is the 'smaller' limited version) also in other (online) shops. 
The 2 competitors are Dorico https://new.steinberg.net/dorico/ and Finale https://www.finalemusic.com/


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## mazikg

ReleaseCandidate said:


> I hope that link works: https://shop.avid.com/ccrz__ProductDetails?viewState=DetailView&isCSRFlow=true&sku=SBDYNA1001&cclcl=fr
> You can buy the perpetual Sibelius (you want Ultimate, Sibelius is the 'smaller' limited version) also in other (online) shops.
> The 2 competitors are Dorico https://new.steinberg.net/dorico/ and Finale https://www.finalemusic.com/


thank you! RC,

I am looking specifically for a an open page, grand stave, with options of interface, mouse, keyboard, iPad pen, though I have heard that is discontinued. That info ...from what company I am not certain, perhaps that was "sourced" from an Apple forum or press release?

any clarification would be great.

As it it is very difficult if not impossible to try out versions at resellers, music stores, what few we have left - i am in the dark as to what interfaces are available. Also I understand that "old school" music writing is being integrated and possibly usurped by other notation input methods and paradigms, i still prefer Guido's thin red line.

sincerely,

M

P.S. will check out links . thank you!


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## ReleaseCandidate

mazikg said:


> thank you! RC,
> 
> I am looking specifically for a an open page, grand stave, with options of interface, mouse, keyboard, iPad pen, though I have heard that is discontinued.



Could that be Notion? That has pen/tablet input and an iPad version, and has not seen real updates (the last have only been to better interface with Studio one only).








Notion | PreSonus







www.presonus.com




You can get a Notion demo version if you register a presonus account.


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## wcreed51

All the notaion programs on the market have demo versions you can download and tryout for a month


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## ReleaseCandidate

wcreed51 said:


> All the notaion programs on the market have demo versions you can download and tryout for a month



Yes, but Presonus doesn't tell you about the possibility to demo Notion.

Only after you register an account, you see the Notion demo appear in your accounts homepage.


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## Sean J

StaffPad is what the next gen of composers will write on. Why stay in the past?


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## gives19

mducharme said:


> Sibelius has moved to a yearly subscription model, and to save development costs they are doing the bare minimum of feature development every year, as little as they feel they can do to get people to renew the yearly subscription, and no more than that.


I quite Sibelius after it was sold.. I found out after I upgraded that I was charged a subscription in the early days of subscription with Avid. Did not like it since I was not informed at all. Had to pay for a year and it was buggy from the jump. So many compatibility problems.


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