# Play on mac ...



## Simon Ravn (Jan 9, 2009)

I am just altering my template a bit to make room for some stuff from SD2, Goliath and such, and I have never had as many crashes doing anything else, than when I try to load and manage instrumemts with PLAY in Logic 8 on Mac. Two times in 10 minutes I double clicked an instrument, selected "add" and the interface of PLAY disappeared (became all gray), spinning beach ball and I had to force quit Logic. (Happened both with the former version of PLAY and the newest one I just upgraded to). This is ridiculous. And they expect you to run entire orchestras on this, when it can give you problems just to load 1 or 2 programs? And yes I run all sorts of Native Instruments plugins, VSL, Omnisphere etc., I never get any crashes like this, so I CAN blame PLAY for being really immature and not ready for prime time. My systems works pretty fine with just about everything else... just not PLAY. I am glad I didn't buy the QLSO upgrade to PLAY, that would really have been a waste. But I still hope, after maybe 10 crashes, to have set up a set of 10-15 programs that I can actually get work done with... :roll:

EDIT: Sorry, left out my specs:

Mac Pro 2x2.66, OS 10.5.6, 9 GB RAM.


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## JMDNYC (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

This is in no way a comprehensive response, but are you running a PPC or an Intel mac? I have both, and I found PLAY more crash-y on my G5. On the Mac Pro it's been working better. I've also read this elsewhere, that it's more stable on intel.

I'm glad I have the Kontakt version of EWQLSO to fall back on when I need it.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 9, 2009)

I've got zero experience with Play as a Plug in but seems to work fine in standalone. Could be a compatibility issues with other plug-in technologies - don't know. No consolation but there is a workaround by having Play outside of Logic if you want to go that route and need to get the project done.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 9, 2009)

Frederick, thanks. But having it outside Logic just adds even more things you need to do to work on a project. I think booting 4 PC's, making sure they are up and running and starting up Logic is enough, I don't want to add even more problems to the equation. I am not on a deadline or anything, but it just p*sses me off to see how lame PLAY seems to have been done compared to all other plugins.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Simon, the only Play instrument I am using is SD2, and I do not have these problems here with it.


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## JohnG (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

I am using many instances of PLAY as a plug-in and having no problems at all. On an Intel Mac, using Digital Performer.

Based on what I've seen on postings, yours is a rare example of major troubles on a Mac with PLAY.

One presumes you've updated etc.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

I just played around more with it and managed to fill an instance with patches, mainly from SD2 without crashing - wow... But when I wanted to save that setup, PLAY comes up with a box saying "Loading:" and then goes through all the samples in my instance, apparently. It crashed about 400 samples before it reached the end with a little "snap" sound along the way. Fortunately I had saved the Logic project so I can load it up again....


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## amplayer (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

On a dual G5 2.7 GHz Mac with 8 Gbytes RAM, Play is totally unusable when in Disk Streaming mode in Logic 8.02 with Platinum SO for me. Even loading the 16-bit samples made no difference. What really bothers me about this is that running Gold Pro XP in Kontakt 3 works fabulously and allows loading LOTS of instruments on this same system without any hiccups.

The only way I have been able to make Play work at all is by forcing it to load all the samples into RAM (i.e., no disk streaming). However, this means I can load precious few articulations and besides that, it slows everything down to a crawl in terms of mouse clicks, etc. So far, I've been able to load only 4 instruments at a time, and then only with one Legato, one Staccato, and no release samples and no effects. This is basically an unusable way to work!

I "upgraded" from Gold Pro XP to Platinum Plus Play. I submitted a ticket to East West asking if I could "downgrade" to a Kompakt Platinum license because I know that would work great on my machine. They initially responded "no", but I responded again explaining my situation, so I'm still holding out hope. If not, the Platinum Plus Play license is a complete waste, and the worst "upgrade" I have EVER made!

One thing I will say is that I have NOT experienced any crashing in Logic or Play when there are one or more Play instances loaded.
The other benefit of Play vs. the old Kontakt license is that the new keyswitched instruments are arranged such that it would be unnecessary to use banks to get the necessary articulations. That is, of course, if the software actually worked...


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## JohnG (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

maybe if you describe your setup, one of the brilliant composers here can help get you on track, as I hear only very rarely of others having these problems on a mac.

so, what kind of mac, os, RAM, plugins, version of PLAY and libraries?

with that info perhaps you can get sorted out and avoid these problems.

And check out the Soundsonline web site -- there are lots of PLAY users there who could help.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

JohnG, I already posted those details.


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## JohnG (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

sorry -- I see that you did post some of it. You didn't list any plug-ins or other VIs or anything else though. Perhaps there is an interaction?

I am sorry you are having problems.

Separately, and while recognising that it's a free and open community, I suggest that you consider whether it would be more fair to alter the title of your post to something like "PLAY is Driving Me Crazy." Which I think is more accurate, given the relatively good performance most Mac users are having and have had with PLAY.

Personally, I have had far more problems with software from other manufacturers than East West or PLAY -- well known manufacturers -- but I recognise that my system is idiosyncratic and that maybe there is some oddity that is causing problems for me but not for the majority of users.


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## cc64 (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



amplayer @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> On a dual G5 2.7 GHz Mac with 8 Gbytes RAM, Play is totally unusable when in Disk Streaming mode in Logic 8.02 with Platinum SO for me. Even loading the 16-bit samples made no difference.



Ouch! I'm installing disk 5 of Platinum Plus on my G5 2X2.5 w/6 gigs RAM as we chat. It will be interesting to see if it works better in Digital Performer.

23 more disks to go and i'll let you know.

I installed SD2 yesterday and everything works well except that there where weird crackling noises at some point while loading sounds, some people have reported explosion of death in Logic doing the same (namely Terry Huud's assistant on the soundsonline forum). 

John Graham seems to say all is pretty well in DP for him so we'll see if it's more of a Logic/PLAY thing...

Also in SD2 the larger multis(i.e. monkey killing congas or something like that) pretty much kill my machine even at 1024 buffer settings. I run the samples off a FW800 external drive spinning @ 7200.

EDIT But i must say that my system is under the "recommended" system wich is a Core2 Duo running @2.5Ghz or faster.

Best,

CC


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Simon Ravn @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> I am just altering my template a bit to make room for some stuff from SD2, Goliath and such, and I have never had as many crashes doing anything else, than when I try to load and manage instrumemts with PLAY in Logic 8 on Mac. Two times in 10 minutes I double clicked an instrument, selected "add" and the interface of PLAY disappeared (became all gray), spinning beach ball and I had to force quit Logic. (Happened both with the former version of PLAY and the newest one I just upgraded to). This is ridiculous. And they expect you to run entire orchestras on this, when it can give you problems just to load 1 or 2 programs? And yes I run all sorts of Native Instruments plugins, VSL, Omnisphere etc., I never get any crashes like this, so I CAN blame PLAY for being really immature and not ready for prime time. My systems works pretty fine with just about everything else... just not PLAY. I am glad I didn't buy the QLSO upgrade to PLAY, that would really have been a waste. But I still hope, after maybe 10 crashes, to have set up a set of 10-15 programs that I can actually get work done with... :roll:
> 
> EDIT: Sorry, left out my specs:
> 
> Mac Pro 2x2.66, OS 10.5.6, 9 GB RAM.



Simon, a group of us here on Logic started a small thread and shared what was going on with PLAY on Logic.

You have plenty of RAM. What we as a group observed, and I believe Nick Phoenix confirmed, is that because of how Logic is designed, not PLAY, you are best to run individual instances like the EXS24 or with the Vienna Instruments. Even on the Mac Pro, Logic's 2GB RAM limit shows up and this seems to be the best way to work it. 

In standalone mode using IAC or Soundflower, PLAY accesses the larger amount of RAM in the Mac system. 

Ned is using Logic with PLAY, so you might want to check with him, too.

Peter


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## amplayer (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

[quote="cc64 @ Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:59 am]Ouch! I'm installing disk 5 of Platinum Plus on my G5 2X2.5 w/6 gigs RAM as we chat. It will be interesting to see if it works better in Digital Performer.
[/quote]

Hmm. I have DP 5.13 on my G5. I'll try it on there and see if it is any better.


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## drasticmeasures (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

I'm on a 8-core, 16gigs RAM and I find PLAY to be a train wreck in Logic as well.

A small tip - if you uncheck "Stream from disk" for every instrument as you go (I know, that sucks), it will crash FAR LESS FREQUENTLY.

I'm currently looking into either moving PLAY (for SD2) onto Mainstage or standalone on the 8-core. If that doesn't work, I'll probably dedicate one of my standby PCs for it.




On an editorial note: 
I find the excuse "it's how Logic interacts with PLAY, not PLAY that is the problem" to be a ridiculous and droll stance. Logic is not an obscure platform. It's one of only, what.... 4 or 5 mainstream DAWs?? This facetious "Wag the Dog" mentality is (IMO) counter productive. I think it would be wonderful if the goal was for things to work properly for the core demographic, regardless of idiosyncratic obstacles.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Peter, sorry but what does Logic's 2GB RAM limit has to do with this? If I was hitting the ceiling I would understand that this is what is supposed to happen (crash), but I am not even close to maxing out Logic's RAM usage. It has nothing to do with that. And I already said that I don't think running PLAY outside Logic is an option for me, as it complicates the setup. And it shouldn't be neccessary either. I am perfectly aware that I can only use 2GB of RAM inside Logic, but that is not the issue with PLAY... Something is wrong with the PLAY engine, that's the problem.


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## amplayer (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nathan Furst @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> I'm on a 8-core, 16gigs RAM and I find PLAY to be a train wreck in Logic as well.



Eegads! Even though Play is the only major plugin that doesn't work well on my G5 dual 2.7 GHz, I didn't expect it to be so poor on an 8-core Mac Pro.



Nathan Furst @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> A small tip - if you uncheck "Stream from disk" for every instrument as you go (I know, that sucks), it will crash FAR LESS FREQUENTLY.


Unfortunately, as I stated earlier, keeping Play from doing any disk streaming is the ONLY way I can get Play to even work on my system. The fact that there is no problem using disk streaming in Kontakt (in Logic 8.02) with these same samples means that Play is the definite culprit. My guess is that EastWest is just too new to the disk streaming technology and they need time to work it out.



Nathan Furst @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> On an editorial note:
> I find the excuse "it's how Logic interacts with PLAY, not PLAY that is the problem" to be a ridiculous and droll stance. Logic is not an obscure platform. It's one of only, what.... 4 or 5 mainstream DAWs?? This facetious "Wag the Dog" mentality is (IMO) counter productive. I think it would be wonderful if the goal was for things to work properly for the core demographic, regardless of idiosyncratic obstacles.



Agreed 100% !!!!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 9, 2009)

You definitely want to use multiple instances.

I just wrote a small cue using I believe 12 instances of Play inside Logic alongside an instance of Omnisphere and a [the Logic modeling synth - my mind's gone totally blank]. I also have a few plug-ins going, including an Altiverb.

The cue is only 13 or 14 tracks, and I have to emphasize that it's not at all intensive, but the processor in Activity Monitor is cruising at about 8%, only spiking at 15% occasionally. I just commented to Jay Asher on the phone this morning (before reading this thread) how nice it was to have the computer completely out of the way for an entire cue.

This was using all QLSO Play - the latest version - on an 8-core with 14GB installed.

I know this isn't helpful to Simon other than to say that Play is working very well here. And I've had similar success using QL pianos.

What is the 2GB limit inside Logic? My understanding is that Play can access big RAM. Or is that just the stand-alone version?


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## amplayer (Jan 9, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> What is the 2GB limit inside Logic? My understanding is that Play can access big RAM. Or is that just the stand-alone version?



In Play on a Mac, you can only go beyond the 2 Gbyte RAM limit if you turn off disk streaming. However, you should note that turning off disk streaming means you'll get a tiny fraction of the number of simultaneous instruments available as you can with disk streaming.


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## madbulk (Jan 9, 2009)

amplayer @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> In Play on a Mac, you can only go beyond the 2 Gbyte RAM limit if you turn off disk streaming. However, you should note that turning off disk streaming means you'll get a tiny fraction of the number of simultaneous instruments available as you can with disk streaming.



I get that you're loading more instruments after turning off streaming. But can this really be the RAM ceiling thing? That just sounds wrong.


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## madbulk (Jan 9, 2009)

So if you want a EWQLSO template, we're still better off loading 128 Play Instances each with one articulation?

Anybody actually managing this?


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## nomogo (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Simon Ravn @ Fri Jan 09 said:


> Peter, sorry but what does Logic's 2GB RAM limit has to do with this? If I was hitting the ceiling I would understand that this is what is supposed to happen (crash), but I am not even close to maxing out Logic's RAM usage. It has nothing to do with that. And I already said that I don't think running PLAY outside Logic is an option for me, as it complicates the setup. And it shouldn't be neccessary either. I am perfectly aware that I can only use 2GB of RAM inside Logic, but that is not the issue with PLAY... Something is wrong with the PLAY engine, that's the problem.



Are you on the latest Play Software update? Have you contacted EW support with a crashlog or console message? You don't say what else you've got loaded in that session... is this happening with only Play loaded or is your session filled to the gills with other VIs/Samples?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 9, 2009)

That would be just a little OTT, Brian. You can load flutes in one instance, etc.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 9, 2009)

Another thing, Simon: turn off the reverb in Play.


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## synthetic (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm sure that, one day, they will invent a Mac powerful enough to run Play. Just be patient a little while longer, I think the new i7 Mac Pros are supposed to be announced soon.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Nick, nah that doesn't have anything to do with it. And actually it's a big help to be able to set patch individual reverb considering how different all the SD2 patches are regarding ambience

Synthetic, I presume that was a joke.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Well, having bought the Plat Play upgrade but not installed it, I am now sitting here somewhat disconcerted, waiting for someone other than Nick to say they can load and successfully use a big honkin' orch setup on an 8 Core. I wouldn't expect it to power EVERY articulation, but I _was_ hoping for a freaking lot.


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## JB78 (Jan 10, 2009)

I have the platinum upgrade installed on my G5 Quad 8 gb ram, thankfully I didn't delete the kontakt version of the library before trying it out. I don't blame EW though because I know that the recommended specs are Intel-based, but I didn't think it would be this taxing on my system. 

I'm just wondering if anyone is getting a higher track count with the PLAY version than Kontakt 2/3 within Logic? 

Best regards
Jon


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## Nick Phoenix (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

99% of our users say the latest PLAY is working great. That's about the same level of success as any other company. I'm kind of surprised to see another one of these $hitstorm threads. I know your problems are real, but try to resolve them with tech support. Simon, you had the same kinds of problems with Kontakt in the beginning and I remember you telling us we made a big mistake using Kontakt. PLAY is not a POS. It will become the leading sampler within 2 years.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Nick, I never had that kind of problems with Kontakt crashing. The only thing that could (and maybe still can) make Kontakt crash here is when it has to scan for a lot of samples that it doesn't know the location of. Where did I say anything about having these kinds of problems with Kontakt? I don't love Kontakt in any way - GigaStudio is still a much better, stable, no-nonsense workhorse, but I don't have these kind of issues with Kontakt. And thanks for the suggestion with tech support, but I don't see how they should be able to help me. There's not much I can change in the way PLAY works, and I have the newest version and all that so... I will wait for updates and try to get by in the meantime...


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## amplayer (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> 99% of our users say the latest PLAY is working great. That's about the same level of success as any other company. I'm kind of surprised to see another one of these $hitstorm threads. I know your problems are real, but try to resolve them with tech support. Simon, you had the same kinds of problems with Kontakt in the beginning and I remember you telling us we made a big mistake using Kontakt. PLAY is not a POS. It will become the leading sampler within 2 years.



There are only 2 posts on your own forum showing anybody with any success at all on a G5. Both of those have buffer settings of 512 samples. I seriously doubt you work with a 512 buffer and I know I can't either. With a buffer setting of 512 samples, I can run a few EWQLSO PLAY instruments at the same time, but still nowhere near enough to be a useful tool. With a buffer setting of 256 samples, my system gets overloads with only one or two instruments as soon as about 3 or 4 notes are triggered too close together. That is not usable!
On this same G5, I can run LOTS of EWQLSO Gold Pro instruments in Kontakt 3 without any crashing and using a buffer setting of only 256. I hope PLAY does become a leading sampler, but right now, your disk streaming technology is WAY BEHIND Kontakt. I sure hope you are working on a solution to the disk streaming problem with PLAY because right now it is completely unusable on my system.

FWIW, I have submitted a ticket with your tech support, and all I've gotten is a link to "solutions" on your own site. I have tried EVERY Engine setting in PLAY, and none of them work with disk streaming at all. PLAY is so bad on my system that I just can't even use it. Unless your programmers do something about fixing their inferior disk streaming technology, my purchase of EWQLSO Platinum Plus PLAY was a complete waste of money. I have even requested to just get my money back because I don't even want this product unless you can fix your disk streaming technology. I would be happy if you just allowed me to have a Kompakt Platinum version instead of the PLAY Platinum Plus I bought, but so far your tech support people have said no. I fully acknowledge that you are offering your excellent sounding product at an extremely low price, and I appreciate that. However, since the PLAY version doesn't work at all, I have no use for it, and your tech support has offered me no possible solutions at all.
Is this really how a customer of 4 EastWest products should be treated?


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## hbuus (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> It will become the leading sampler within 2 years.



Sure - provided that VSL and everyone else in the industry sit on their hands meanwhile


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## synthetic (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Simon Ravn @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> Synthetic, I presume that was a joke.



Sorry, I forget that this is an international board sometimes. Yes, that was mostly sarcasm. However, with computers getting faster every year, software companies can often get away with sloppy code.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2009)

I don't want to sound like an apologist (because everyone knows that all developers are sadistically evil capitalist pigs who want to line their greedy pockets by coming out with broken products we all hate) but I wonder whether this isn't one of those Logic quirks.

Much as I love Logic, it has an uncanny tendency to do weird things when you get far into a cue. Something gets corrupted, and you can't figure out why it's doing strange things for no obvious reason.

An example of why I'm floating this is that a couple of months ago I was about to post a screen dump of Play in Logic spiking a processor in my 8-core. I was going to show why you want to use individual instances rather than loading up a single one. Well, surprise - when I reloaded the session the load was distributed evenly between all eight cores.

In this case one could imagine that Logic was happier reloading the plug-ins in an orderly manner, so it might not be one of those corruption quirks. But they do happen, in fact I just called my own personal Logic saviour Jay Asher to ask why the frign arrow up/down keys aren't selecting the previous/next track in the Arrange window.

Without taking a breath he said "corrupted key commands." It's funny how some troubleshooting issues are clear when you're not the one with the tired brain going through them. 

I can think of lots of similar examples of strange Logic behavior. In one case I saw Nathan F selecting controller segments in a MIDI editor in a way I'd been attempting for a couple of years. It turned out to be a single corrupted screenset in my Autoload!

I hope this doesn't seem patronizing to Stark Ravn - it's more of a tangent about my favorite subject (myself) than attempted sage advice. But Play is definitely not a train wreck on my machine.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2009)

And I have to add that Kontakt (or the Kontakt Player) was a total disaster at first! Don't you guys remember that? It never worked in OS 9; it wasn't until OS X became ready for prime time and at least a year after bigfoot libraries (King Idiot's term) appeared in its format before things got straightened out.

...not to imply that Play is still in that boat.


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## amplayer (Jan 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> And I have to add that Kontakt (or the Kontakt Player) was a total disaster at first! Don't you guys remember that? It never worked in OS 9; it wasn't until OS X became ready for prime time and at least a year after bigfoot libraries (King Idiot's term) appeared in its format before things got straightened out.
> 
> ...not to imply that Play is still in that boat.



Kontakt has been out much longer than Play. Kontakt still has issues also. Nevertheless, Kontakt is very usable on my system and especially performs well with the excellent EastWest samples.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 10, 2009)

Kontakt only has issues when it's running complicated scripts in my experience. Otherwise it's totally stable, no?


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## amplayer (Jan 10, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> Kontakt only has issues when it's running complicated scripts in my experience. Otherwise it's totally stable, no?



Agreed!


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## JB78 (Jan 10, 2009)

amplayer @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Sat Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Kontakt only has issues when it's running complicated scripts in my experience. Otherwise it's totally stable, no?
> ...



+1


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Nick, no offence taken. But as I wrote in my OP, this is just during setting up my first instance of PLAY in a totally empty project, and every other plugin works as they should. PLAY is the only one acting up.


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## Nick Phoenix (Jan 10, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Simon Ravn @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> Nick, I never had that kind of problems with Kontakt crashing. The only thing that could (and maybe still can) make Kontakt crash here is when it has to scan for a lot of samples that it doesn't know the location of. Where did I say anything about having these kinds of problems with Kontakt? I don't love Kontakt in any way - GigaStudio is still a much better, stable, no-nonsense workhorse, but I don't have these kind of issues with Kontakt. And thanks for the suggestion with tech support, but I don't see how they should be able to help me. There's not much I can change in the way PLAY works, and I have the newest version and all that so... I will wait for updates and try to get by in the meantime...



I guess you forgot, but you were on our original beta team and you told us we made a big mistake not using giga and that Kontakt was a POS. In fact that was the source of your falling out with Doug, because you started talking publicly about EWQLSO issues, both sample and software wise. 

You really should contact tech support.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Nick, sure, Kompakt/Kontakt was and is a step down from GigaStudio, I know that, but I never had any crashing with Kompakt/Kontakt, not when betaing QLSO either. The sampler is inferior and especially the streaming engine/RAM handling is, but I never had any crashing with it (unlike PLAY). And that Doug gets mad at me because I DARE to talk publically about a public product like EWQLSO and its shortcomings - wow.. yeah that really shows how classy and professional a developer he is.


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## tripit (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Sat Jan 10 said:


> 99% of our users say the latest PLAY is working great. That's about the same level of success as any other company. I'm kind of surprised to see another one of these $hitstorm threads. I know your problems are real, but try to resolve them with tech support. Simon, you had the same kinds of problems with Kontakt in the beginning and I remember you telling us we made a big mistake using Kontakt. PLAY is not a POS. It will become the leading sampler within 2 years.



Nick, there are various issues with PLAY - and honestly, I think the number is considerably more than 1%, a lot more. That's why you guys keep getting $hitstorm threads. Hell, at least 15% to 20% of the people I know of, have some kind of issue with PLAY, and that's conservative. So stop saying 99% - I'm not buying it, nor are others. It's ok to say you have issues, really it is. I would rather you say you have issues and be able to trust what you saying than doubt everything you say because you're trying to tell us that only 1% of everyone has issues with Play, when a lot of us have some kind of issue. 

But you guys aren't alone either. Kontakt has it's share too. 

2 years??? doubtful IMHO. Maybe possible if you redesign it so that all the features that should be there are there and it's rock solid on both platforms

But, by then VSL's VE6 will be able to teleport us sandwiches while we work.


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## amplayer (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Sat Jan 10 said:
> 
> 
> > Nick, I never had that kind of problems with Kontakt crashing. The only thing that could (and maybe still can) make Kontakt crash here is when it has to scan for a lot of samples that it doesn't know the location of. Where did I say anything about having these kinds of problems with Kontakt? I don't love Kontakt in any way - GigaStudio is still a much better, stable, no-nonsense workhorse, but I don't have these kind of issues with Kontakt. And thanks for the suggestion with tech support, but I don't see how they should be able to help me. There's not much I can change in the way PLAY works, and I have the newest version and all that so... I will wait for updates and try to get by in the meantime...
> ...



I wasn't on the beta team for Play. I wish I was. FWIW, I have requested from NI to be on the beta team for Kontakt 3.5. If they allow me to beta test Kontakt 3.5, the first thing I'm going to do is load up my old copy of EWQLSO Gold Pro and see how well it goes beyond the traditional memory allotment. Of course, if I do become a beta tester, then I would never publicly air anything good or bad during the beta test period because that would violate the terms of the beta agreement.

I sure hope I am not in the camp of having had a falling out because I have been a staunch supporter of EastWest samples. They allow for quick and good sounds. This is the first time I've ever said anything that wasn't fantastic about EastWest. All I want is a Platinum SO that works on my Mac. I love your samples and your pricing. I just want to use them!


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## midphase (Jan 11, 2009)

I was under the impression that NI announced a public beta for their next version? No?


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## Nick Phoenix (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Tripit, No. It's less than 1% now. Total number of support requests is about 1% of number of sales and that includes user error. It just shows you how a few people can really make a huge stink on the net. The number was higher. Not any more. By 1%, I mean issues that are serious, that cause a crash or slow down work or a glitch in the audio etc..

Do you have the latest version of play and what are your issues?


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## amplayer (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Tripit, No. It's less than 1% now. Total number of support requests is about 1% of number of sales and that includes user error. It just shows you how a few people can really make a huge stink on the net. The number was higher. Not any more. By 1%, I mean issues that are serious, that cause a crash or slow down work or a glitch in the audio etc..
> 
> Do you have the latest version of play and what are your issues?



I have the latest version of Play, and I am in the 1%. Nobody from EastWest has given me any help at all. Why am I being ignored?


----------



## tripit (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Tripit, No. It's less than 1% now. Total number of support requests is about 1% of number of sales and that includes user error. It just shows you how a few people can really make a huge stink on the net. The number was higher. Not any more. By 1%, I mean issues that are serious, that cause a crash or slow down work or a glitch in the audio etc..
> 
> Do you have the latest version of play and what are your issues?



I do have the latest versions. I have play running on both mac and PC now, for the most part. I did have the most worst install experience on any library ever with Play. I ended up with not just one bad disc, but two. I also spent 3 weeks trying to get the piano installed. I also had various issues with the gold both with installs and browser issues. I had to reinstall Play so many times that I've lost count. I had a lot of visits with your techs and on the tech forum. It hasn't made me feel like Play was an "A level" app, that's for sure. Then there is the fact that Play does not work with DAE in DP. I'm a DP/DAE guy. Every other sample player or VI plug works in DP with DAE - except for Play. So I have to use it outside of my main daw app. Not ideal and certainly needs fixing. 

My other issues are mostly about the design. The lack of cc assignable controls is a big one. I also think you should have had another page view on the player, maybe a mutli matrix view that allows you to see primary info needed for all channels in one look. Play is the most clumsy of any sampler for multi use. 

I also hate the fact that you can't get any scaled GUI feedback for vol, pan, expression or any other cc controlled item. On every other player, you can see the level in db or some kind of scale, same for any other parameter. This should have been a given from day one in your design. 

Probably 70% of your users don't even realize these are issues, but the others like myself do. Play is young, you guys can certainly address all of these issues. But I think you guys have some work cut out still to get this app to A level. It still feels a little premature to me. Hopefully your company is listening and taking notes.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 11, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Tripit, No. It's less than 1% now. Total number of support requests is about 1% of number of sales and that includes user error. It just shows you how a few people can really make a huge stink on the net. The number was higher. Not any more. By 1%, I mean issues that are serious, that cause a crash or slow down work or a glitch in the audio etc..



ROFLMAO


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 12, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> Rousseau, The round thing is called a cd or DVD and you stick in the hole. No not that one. The one on the computer. On second thought, try the other one, you'll probably have better luck.



/\~O ROFLMAO 

Did you think that one up all by yourself, or is it one of your helpful Tech Support FAQ responses? 



Simon, welcome to the mad, bad world of EWQL customer care. :lol:


----------



## midphase (Jan 12, 2009)

I'm curious...but considering the fact that iLok protection and PLAY have never been hacked...why doesn't East West offer a money back guarantee if the product doesn't work as advertised for some people (say within 30 days of purchase)? It seems to me like they would avoid a great deal of negative publicity by simply refunding the cost of the product to unhappy customers and disabling the iLok authorization.

Seems fair enough and isn't this part of the advantage of having an un-copyable product. Am I missing something here?


----------



## tripit (Jan 12, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Nick Phoenix @ Sun Jan 11 said:


> Rousseau, The round thing is called a cd or DVD and you stick in the hole. No not that one. The one on the computer. On second thought, try the other one, you'll probably have better luck.
> 
> Tripit, those things you described are not PLAY issues, they are feature requests. Anyway we got you covered. The bad discs thing sucks.



Well, Play not working in DP with DAE is a Play issue. I can't use Play in my DAW, I'd say that's a pretty damn big issue actually. 

Yes the others are features, but don't forget that one man's features is another's issue.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 12, 2009)

Rousseau, please do keep us posted on how that goes. I'm especially interested in which way the disc is oriented - label up, down, sideways left or right...


----------



## madbulk (Jan 12, 2009)

midphase @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> I'm curious...but considering the fact that iLok protection and PLAY have never been hacked...why doesn't East West offer a money back guarantee if the product doesn't work as advertised for some people (say within 30 days of purchase)? It seems to me like they would avoid a great deal of negative publicity by simply refunding the cost of the product to unhappy customers and disabling the iLok authorization.
> 
> Seems fair enough and isn't this part of the advantage of having an un-copyable product. Am I missing something here?



ROFLMAO


----------



## Richard Wilkinson (Jan 12, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

I'm one of 'em, FYI. Oodles of tech support requests and forum posts, but it seems PLAY just wasn't built to account for people with G5s. Which is sad really, as the sounds are excellent. And due to EastWest's policy of not refunding software that doesn't do what it claims to do, I'm left with nothing more than a pretty (and massively oversized, but that's a different rant) cardboard box.

I haven't uninstalled it though - I used some string fx and SD2 to put together a 24-second cue for a feature I just did.

It sounded awesome 

It took me 7 hours to complete :(

It'd be a lovely surprise to get an email saying they've fixed PLAY for G5s in the next couple of weeks, but I think it's unlikely.


----------



## artsoundz (Jan 12, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

you guys must be talkin' bout the Symphony Orchestra offering and possibly SD2 as I have MOR and Gypsy and nary a problem on a G5 quad. Nothing. Nada.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 12, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> Rousseau, please do keep us posted on how that goes. I'm especially interested in which way the disc is oriented - label up, down, sideways left or right...



Nick, I'd assume label side up is best.

Maybe it's a question for EWQL tech support; why don't you post a ticket and see what their advice is? - they are, after all, specialists in shafting their customers with their DVDs.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 12, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

I have had excellent service and response time from tech support at East West. Far better than that at many rivals.

If you want to go on piling in to every discussion about PLAY and slagging off the product and the developers, Rousseau, I guess you can. 

But I think it is kind of unfair to attack their entire tech support effort, which has solved the problems I've had and explained stuff to me, patiently, some of which I later found right in the manual. 

I have seen you on this forum make barely veiled threats of legal action, encourage another member to attack East West through legal action, and attack every aspect of PLAY, calling it, effectively, broken or not working or not fit for purpose (or words to that effect).

But PLAY does work and is working, at least for many users, so your categorical attacks have been at best overly general.

And you also have mocked offers from Doug Rogers to sort your difficulties out, saying that you don't think they would fly to England to help you. But that seems unfair, as they didn't offer to fly over, just to help. Sarcastically deflecting such overtures instead of trying to work with EW might make some readers wonder whether perhaps you prefer castigating them over fixing the problem.

Why don't you just take them up on the offer to sort out your problems instead of attacking them? Although of course I could have overlooked it, I have never, in many months of reading your incendiary posts, seen you describe in detail what your problem was with PLAY -- what difficulties you were encountering. Why not give it a go?


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jan 12, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



wilx @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> I'm one of 'em, FYI. Oodles of tech support requests and forum posts, but it seems PLAY just wasn't built to account for people with G5s. Which is sad really, as the sounds are excellent. And due to EastWest's policy of not refunding software that doesn't do what it claims to do, I'm left with nothing more than a pretty (and massively oversized, but that's a different rant) cardboard box.
> 
> I haven't uninstalled it though - I used some string fx and SD2 to put together a 24-second cue for a feature I just did.
> 
> ...



I have a G5 dual. So I'm limited in some big applications. However, there are three points here.

1. Others with your system have reported excellent results running in standalone mode with Soundflower, or in some cases IAC. 

2. Nick Phoenix, on this forum, published that PLAY was designed to take advantage of the Core 8s and beyond. 

3. From the onset, Doug Rogers' advertised what would be possible with PLAY on systems with lots of RAM. That's only possible on the Mac Pros and PC systems with server boards allowing for 16GB of RAM and up. The more RAM you can have on one system the fewer systems needed in a studio which makes for a much more convenient and quieter studio. Doug did what we his customers asked for - to run QLSO on a single system instead of 4 or 5. 

I mean no disrespect, but your criticism is neutered because no where do you report what you're sequencing with, is PLAY on one or multiple machines, how you're setting up, how much RAM, audio card and drivers, OS, MIDI interface, etc.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 12, 2009)

The minimum system requirements for PLAY are a G5 processor with 2GB of RAM. 

http://www.soundsonline.com/EastWest-Qu ... W-177.html

Recommended system is a Core 2 Duo. Anyone who has reads these system requirements before (both of us) know to expect the "minimum" from the minimum system. However, you would expect it to function as advertised.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



JohnG @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> I have had excellent service and response time from tech support at East West. Far better than that at many rivals.
> 
> If you want to go on piling in to every discussion about PLAY and slagging off the product and the developers, Rousseau, I guess you can.
> 
> ...



John, I'm not sure why you cannot grasp this fact, but you need to understand that PLAY is extremely buggy. EWQL has not fixed those bugs. It is really that simple, that cut and dry. 

For Nick to claim that 1% of users are having problems is disingenuous and indeed hysterically funny and nor borne out by what people are experiencing on the ground (go on look at various other forums, you'll see what really going on if you take your EWQL blinkers off). Given that EWQL bans users from its forum for posting complaints, it is not surprising that they have reached such conclusions. 

Cheers


----------



## reddognoyz (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

I can see the potential for Play, I am using it as a VI standalone for Stormdrum 2 and it is working okay although I've had a couple of issues. I am installing a new PC to run Stormdrum 2 and EWQLSO plat percussion together and I think it will suffice for those basic libraries. I don't think it's poised to replace the other VI "samplers" out there. Maybe it isn't supposed to. Yet.

I like the features that it has that are specific to the EWQLSO libraries, but man! it's soooo basic! I feel like I can't GET at anything. I'm hamstrung.

It also seems way less efficient than K3. Is it just me?

I tried to run the midi sequences that come with Stormdrum2 and my 10.4.9 8core Mac(14gigs ram)choked on it. Or rather Play choked on it. Literally. Notes cutting off all over the place. I don't think the polyphony involved warranted that, at least not compared to giga3 or k3. I'm waiting on Play 3!

I will hang in, but am hoping/expecting some improvements in efficiency and feature set. 

I am optimistic because Doug and Nick hold a very high standard for there products. I think they released this basic version of Play because must've really been chafing to get out from under K3. 

my 2¢

-Stuart


----------



## gmet (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



wilx @ 12th January 2009 said:


> due to EastWest's policy of not refunding software that doesn't do what it claims to do, I'm left with nothing more than a pretty (and massively oversized, but that's a different rant) cardboard box.


+1



Rousseau @ 13th January 2009 said:


> Given that EWQL bans users from its forum for posting complaints, it is not surprising that they have reached such conclusions


Yes, this probably also contributes to Nick's figures.

Anyway 97.3% of all statistics are made up!

Justin


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

[quote="Rousseau @ Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:12 am"/quote]

John, I'm not sure why you cannot grasp this fact, but you need to understand that PLAY is extremely buggy. EWQL has not fixed those bugs. It is really that simple, that cut and dry. 

For Nick to claim that 1% of users are having problems is disingenuous and indeed hysterically funny and nor borne out by what people are experiencing on the ground (go on look at various other forums, you'll see what really going on if you take your EWQL blinkers off). Given that EWQL bans users from its forum for posting complaints, it is not surprising that they have reached such conclusions. 

Cheers[/quote]

No it is NOT that cut and dry. On my rig, Play behaves at least as well as Kontakt 3 and yet I do not see you ranting at N.I.

You need to accept that fact that because YOU are having a bad time with Play does not mean EVERYONE is having a bad time.

Also, at a certain point, enough is enough. You are becoming a bore with this.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Ashermusic @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> No it is NOT that cut and dry. On my rig, Play behaves at least as well as Kontakt 3 and yet I do not see you ranting at N.I.
> 
> You need to accept that fact that because YOU are having a bad time with Play does not mean EVERYONE is having a bad time.
> 
> Also, at a certain point, enough is enough. You are becoming a bore with this.



Enough is enough Jay, you're absolutely right. EWQL need to stop spreading the bullshit, insulting its erstwhile customers and once and for all fix PLAY. 

PLAY is 2 years old; they've had 9 months since SD2 was released and there are still widely reported issues (from both PC and Mac users) that are yet to be resolved. Just take a look at threads on here and take a look across the web; tip: there's an interesting one on SOS too from some other rather high profile composers who, surprise surprise, are having massive issues too.

WE are not 'ranting' as you put it, WE just want a product, that WE paid for, to work! It is really that simple. I'm not sure why you have problems grasping such concepts. 

I'm sorry you find it a bore, but hey, it's really boring to buy a product which doesn't work as advertised, for it not to be fixed by the company despite many months of false promises, fob-offs, laughable claims and ad hominens. And to cap it all off, there's no hope of a refund! The situation absolutely stinks. 

IF you believe this is a good way for a company to do business in the midst of the deepest economic crisis since the 1930s, then well, good luck to you and EWQL. I wish you and them well.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 13, 2009)

Rousseau, all emotional, personal, and proctological issues aside, I'm curious: what are the actual problems you're having?

I apologize if you've posted them before, but I'd like to see them all listed in one place so I can see whether I can duplicate them.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 13, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Rousseau, all emotional, personal, and proctological issues aside, I'm curious: what are the actual problems you're having?
> 
> I apologize if you've posted them before, but I'd like to see them all listed in one place so I can see whether I can duplicate them.



The only problems I have - well apart from the annoying one preventing me from taking my Porsche out atm - with the PLAY engine are well documented. 

For starters Nick, try loading up the MIDI performance Multi - 'glitch ma XXX itch'. 

Please post your findings. 


Cheers


----------



## rgames (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



JohnG @ Mon Jan 12 said:


> I have had excellent service and response time from tech support at East West. Far better than that at many rivals.



I've had a support request in since mid-December. I got one response that said "update everything" (which, of course, I had already done before I contacted support). I've sent several follow-up e-mails to find out what's up and had no reponse.

rgames


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## NYC Composer (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Rousseau..I thought Nick asked you ( politely) to list your problems, so that there could be some cross referencing done and maybe even some solutions discovered.

Someone else asked you to list your system specs...I notice you haven't done that either.

I certainly know the frustration of paying a lot of money for glitchy products and I feel your pain, but most systems are idiosyncratic and problems can be somewhat based on specs.

If you're not willing to list both, your specific problems and your system specs, I'd say that rather than looking for any solution, you're just here to rant against the developer... and the fact that you listed them before, well, it's not like you don't have a few extra minutes...you have time to slag EW, no?

To Nick and Doug: I would seriously suggest you change your minimum spec. I haven't seen one commentator here who's having any real success on a G5 ( like mine, sigh). Why alienate customers if this is really the case? You guys make great sounding products, some of which are extremely demanding of computer resources..well, that's the way it is. If the customer knows that going in, it can't blow back on you.


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Something worth reading:

http://www.giantimpact.com/articles/read/article_problems/ (http://www.giantimpact.com/articles/rea ... _problems/)


----------



## gmet (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Something else equally as valid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware# ... pectations

Justin


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



NYC Composer @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Rousseau..I thought Nick asked you ( politely) to list your problems, so that there could be some cross referencing done and maybe even some solutions discovered.
> 
> Someone else asked you to list your system specs...I notice you haven't done that either.
> 
> ...






Thanks NYC, but I PM'ed Nick back on August 7th 2008 with specifics. 

Here's the PM cut and pasted verbatim:

Hi Nick,

Just taking you/Doug up on your offer of direct help; hope you don't mind PMing you, thought it might be easier...

Now the good news, I think we're getting seriously close to getting these PC issues fixed it seems. With the 1.79 update of PLAY and the SD2 update, more things began to work. Just updated to 1.80 and the latest SD2, and not much improvement, but I thought it might help if I reported what exactly is happening here (because it doesn't make that much sense in some respects).

All the individual sample hits - those that I've tried - work. I can even have multiple instruments loaded up on different channels, which is honestly a revelation compared to previous updates! Mr. Green

However, a few strange things. If I load up the Multi glitch ma xxxitch 4 4 130 I get total drop outs after a couple of seconds (this is as you know with only 3 channels running: 130bpm glitched drone, ambient contortion and black drumkit.) It is the same whether disk streaming is enabled or not.

The culprit seems to be 130bpm glitched drone (if it's muted the problem disappears). It's strange because it's only playing a single sample for each key (not loads of crossfaded layers etc), disk access is tiny, ram and cpu usage neglible. And as I said, I've loaded up far more than this and not run into similar problems (problems which were all too common before the latest updates).

On its own, this 130bpm glitched drone drops out really badly on the first few key presses, and then refuses to make any sound. The other glitched drones that I've tried don't seem to suffer from the same problem; though they don't seem to loop (can't be sure whether they are supposed to of course, but they last far longer and don't exhibit the same dropouts and pops and clicks).

My system specs:

DAW:

Core 2 Quad Q6600
4gb ddr2 ram
3x500gb 7200rpm HDs (sata 2). PLAY is on a separate disk to both Windows and Cubase 4

I also have 2 slaves atm. Tried running PLAY from both of them and the same problem is exhibited.

This is the same problem that various colleagues are having, including Rxx Lxxxxxx.

Any ideas?

Cheers


--------------------

NYC, nothing to hide here. Listen, I've just bought a Mac Book Pro, taken a leaf out of Ian's book and grabbed Redmatica so I can sample SD2 and MOR for use in K3. I can't afford to feck about with software that doesn't work; time is money.


----------



## artsoundz (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

uh...Thats IT? That's what this has been all about? One patch at 130bpm?


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## synthetic (Jan 13, 2009)

Wow, when I suggested that Giga would still be in business if more people had bought the software, Peter wrote an article that TASCAM was blaming the customer. When Nick tells a customer to stick the software up his ass, Peter asks the customer to read an article about problem solving.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



artsoundz @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> uh...Thats IT? That's what this has been all about? One patch at 130bpm?



Nope. It's much much more than that. It is symptomatic of a *fundamental* issue with PLAY - whether it's SD2 or MOR. This patch, which I mention as an exemplar, is simply typical of the issue that plagues the engine; ie 1 sample makes the engine fall over... 1 single sample, nothing more. Moreover, a common issue amongst bug reports seems to be, where MOR is concerned, is having the bass and the drums running at the same time; glitch city here and everyone else I know who is having issues. 

I've had some of my coders look at PLAY and I'm informed that it's a memory leakage issue principally. 

Cheers


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 13, 2009)

"I PM'ed Nick back on August 7th 2008 with specifics. "

That's the other Nick, right?


----------



## artsoundz (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Rousseau @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> artsoundz @ Wed Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> > uh...Thats IT? That's what this has been all about? One patch at 130bpm?
> ...



Put me in the column of not ONE problem w/MOR. FYI.


----------



## Fernando Warez (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Peter Alexander @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Something worth reading:
> 
> http://www.giantimpact.com/articles/read/article_problems/ (http://www.giantimpact.com/articles/rea ... _problems/)



:roll: .......


----------



## esteso (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Wow, this is heating up pretty nicely now, huh? 

I can't use Play because of it's poor performance on a G5. I get that, but I still don't understand why the same number of voices in Play brings my G5 to it's knees (not very many, maybe 10 or 12) while I can happily load 250 stereo voices in Kontakt 2 with ease. My guess is Eastwest ignored the G5 while coding since it's essentially obsolete. Why else would it function at maybe 10%? (and I'm being generous here)

But this is old news and we've gone through it in another thread and really what's going on IMO is that Play simply does not work on a G5, period. Well, almost period...... unleò½K   ‘—‡½K   ‘—ˆ½K   ‘—‰½K   ‘—Š½K   ‘—‹½K   ‘—Œ½K   ‘—½K   ‘—Ž½K   ‘—½K   ‘—½K   ‘—‘½K   ‘—’½K   ‘—“½K   ‘—”½K   ‘—•½K   ‘—–½K   ‘——½K   ‘—˜½K   ‘—™½K   ‘—š½K   ‘—›½K   ‘—œ½K   ‘—½K   ‘—ž½K   ‘—Ÿ½K   ‘— ½K   ‘—¡½K   ‘—¢½K   ‘—£½K   ‘—¤½K   ‘—¥½K   ‘—¦½K   ‘—§½K   ‘—¨½K   ‘—©½K   ‘—ª½K   ‘˜½K   ‘˜½K   ‘˜½K   ‘˜½K   ‘˜½K   ‘˜½L   ‘—«½L   ‘—¬½L   ‘—­½L   ‘—®½L   ‘—¯½L   ‘—°½


----------



## amplayer (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



esteso @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.



:idea: 
Not sure I understand the metaphor, but since I don't, there's probably a lot of other dense people like myself that also don't get it. Therefore, it is a good candidate for a lyric! :mrgreen:


----------



## rgames (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



artsoundz @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> Put me in the column of not ONE problem w/MOR. FYI.



Person A says: "I have cancer."
Person B says: "Well, I don't have cancer."
 
And from that we determine.... what? Person A's cancer should be ignored because Person B doesn't have it?

rgames


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## artsoundz (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

no. What we learn is get a Mac and you wont get cancer.


----------



## synthetic (Jan 13, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



amplayer @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> esteso @ Tue Jan 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.
> ...



Already done by Dire Straits ("The Bug.")


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 14, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> "I PM'ed Nick back on August 7th 2008 with specifics. "
> 
> That's the other Nick, right?



Yup, Nick Phoenix. 


So, what does that give when you load up that Multi Nick (Batzdorf)?


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

The anecdotal evidence seems to be 8- or quad-core whether Mac or PC. 

So on the MAC: Dual G5s - what's the experience?
On the PC - Core2Duo, AMD, other, what's the experience?

A consider problem I have with many who are criticizing PLAY is that you're neither posting your specs, the system, nor the sequencing software being used. I've not read anything from those running PLAY on standalone PCs. 

To not list this info is a type of corporate sabotage. 

SO -

PLAY version number:
System type:
Operating System:
RAM:
CPU:
Hard Drive Speed:
Being used on a sequencing computer: Y/N
Sequencing/digital audio program being used:
Is PLAY being run in standalone mode with the sequencer:
Is PLAY being run within the sequencer as a VSTi:
Within the sequencer, is PLAY being used in single instances or multitimbrally? If single instances, how many?

Any person stating that PLAY isn't properly working on their systems without providing this level of information is committing corporate sabotage especially if you're making criticisms and hiding behind a handle. That includes certain English college teachers who are glossing over the legal fact that they are creating a liability for the college at which they work.


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 14, 2009)

I think the word choice "corporate sabotage" is a bit over the top. You are addressing paying customers who apparently are disappointed with a product and/or technology they purchased/licensed.

As if these indivividuals are breaching a contract with East West / Quantum Leap.

From what I read in this topic, my intuition tells me that the suppliers, not the purchasers are on the wrong side of the line.

You post sounds like you are a legal representative from EW/QL.

Wat is your exact relation with these companies, Peter?

Just curious


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 14, 2009)

"So, what does that give when you load up that Multi Nick (Batzdorf)?"

I don't know. The second of two new Seagate drives - the one with all the EW stuff on it - just failed within three months and I have to wait for the warranty replacement. :(


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



rgames @ Tue Jan 13 said:


> artsoundz @ Tue Jan 13 said:
> 
> 
> > Put me in the column of not ONE problem w/MOR. FYI.
> ...



I'd say the better analogy is that hundreds of thousands of folks get an immunization shot following instructions and a handful die from it. Does that mean you do not have your kid immunized?


----------



## tfishbein82 (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> I'd say the better analogy is that hundreds of thousands of folks get an immunization shot following instructions and a handful die from it. Does that mean you do not have your kid immunized?


Perhaps a better analogy, but the wrong question...

Does that mean we should stop looking for a better immunization?


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 14, 2009)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> "So, what does that give when you load up that Multi Nick (Batzdorf)?"
> 
> I don't know. The second of two new Seagate drives - the one with all the EW stuff on it - just failed within three months and I have to wait for the warranty replacement. :(



Man that's really bad luck - I'm assuming they're internal jobbies rather than externals? Hope you backed it all up otherwise you'll be in for a lot of reinstalling. 

Cheers


----------



## amplayer (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> rgames @ Tue Jan 13 said:
> 
> 
> > artsoundz @ Tue Jan 13 said:
> ...



If you use the stated 1% as the rate of "serious problems", then your analogy is a vast understatement. With your numbers, a correction would be to say that "several thousand die from it". And honestly, if you had a 1% chance of dying from an immunization, would you get the immunization? Not only would you not get it, but the immunization wouldn't be allowed in most countries with that high a risk factor.
Bottom line, I think the health analogies aren't appropriate when talking about software that isn't useful for 1% of the customers. The fact that I am personally a part of that 1% doesn't mean I'm dead. It just means I'm out some money.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



amplayer @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> > rgames @ Tue Jan 13 said:
> ...



Good point, my analogy doesn't stand up well.

Either way, this isn't life and death.

Here is my guess, and while it is only a guess nonetheless I am confident it is so: If one is using Play in Logic Pro on a MacIntel multi-core and having problems, I could go to that person's studio and in a couple of hours, the problems would be greatly diminished by my setting up everything it should be.

On a G5 with Logic Pro 7, it would be the same, although you would have to start freezing tracks. 

And it would not be a much different scenario with Kontakt 3.

I cannot say the same about DP or CUbase, simply because I do not use them.


----------



## redleicester (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

As posted elsewhere in another discussion from the multitudinous hordes who comprise the "1%" of struggling customers, and as discussed here previously, as I can't be bothered to retype it:


<snip>


I have had Play glitch, fall over, appear to operate but produce no sound, open a blank plugin window, and crash the DAW (all/and/or combination of the above) on the following systems: 

*System 1 (DAW): *
Asus P5B Deluxe 
Intel Q6700 
8Gb RAM Crucial PC6400 
1x 75gb WD Raptor SATA System HD 
2x 500Gb Samsung F1 SATA HD 
2x 750Gb Samsung F1 SATA HD 
RME HDSP MADI PCI / ADI-648 
EuCon 
TC Electronic Powercore Firewire 
UAD2 
PS/2 Keyboard 
Kensington Orbit Pro Trackball 
2x Nvidia 7600GS GPUs driving 2x 20" and 2x 24" TFT displays 

OS - Hardware multiboot - XPP 32 / XPP 32 with 3Gb Switch/ XPP x64 / Vista64 Ultimate 


*System 2 (DAW2): *
Asus P5Q Deluxe 
Intel Q9550 
8Gb RAM Corsair XMS2 6400 
1x 75gb WD Raptor SATA System HD 
2x 500Gb Samsung F1 SATA HD 
2x 750Gb Samsung F1 SATA HD 
RME HDSP MADI PCI / ADI-648 
EuCon 
TC Electronic Powercore Firewire 
UAD2 
PS/2 Keyboard 
Kensington Orbit Pro Trackball 
2x Nvidia 7600GS GPUs driving 2x 20" and 2x 24" TFT displays 

OS - Hardware multiboot - XPP 32 / XPP 32 with 3Gb Switch/ XPP x64 / Vista64 Ultimate 


*System 3 (x2 Slave): *
Asus P4C800 Deluxe 
P4 3.2GHz 
4Gb RAM 
1x 74Gb WD Raptor SATA System Drive 
2x 500Gb Samsung F1 SATA Drive in RAID0 
2x 500Gb Samsung F1 SATA Drives 
RME HDSP 9652 PCI 
EuCon 
PS/2 Keyboard 
Kensington Orbit Pro Trackball 
Nvidia 5200LE GPU driving 20" TFT 

OS - Hardware multiboot - XPP 32 / XPP 32 with 3Gb Switch 

Cubase 4.5 and Standalone Play 
Vienna Ensemble running Brass / Woodwind / Percussion / Keyboards 


*System 4 (x2 Slave): *

Asus P5DW2 Deluxe 
Intel Core 2.66 
8Gb RAM 
1x 74Gb WD Raptor SATA System Drive 
2x 500Gb Samsung F1 SATA Drives 
RME HDSP 9632 PCI 
EuCon 
PS/2 Keyboard 
Kensington Orbit Pro Trackball 
Nvidia 7200GS GPU driving 20" TFT 

OS - Hardware multiboot - XPP 32 / XPP 32 with 3Gb Switch/ XPP x64 

VSL Vienna Ensemble 2 Running Strings sections (solo and ensemble) 

 ò1È   q1G1È   q1H1È   q1I1È   q1J1È   q1K1È   q1L1È   q1M1È   q1N1È   q1O1È   q1P1È   q1Q1È   q1R1È   q1S1È   q1T1È   q1U1È   q1V1È   q1W1È   q1X1È   q1Y1È   q1Z1È   q1[1È   q1\1È   q1]1È   q1^1È   q1_1È   q1`1È   q1a1È   q1b1È   q1c1È   q1d1È   q1e1È   q1f1È   q1g1È   q1h1È   q1i1È   q1j1È   q1k1È   q1l1È   q1m1È   q1n1È   q1o1È   q1p1È   q1q1È   q1r1È   q1s1È   q1t1È   q1u1È   q1v1È   q1w1È   q1x1È   q1y1È   q1z1È   q1{1È   q1|1È   q1}1È   q1~1È   q11È   q1€1È   q11È   q1‚1È   q1ƒ1È   q1„1È   q1…1È   q1†1É   q1‡1É   q1ˆ1É   q1‰1É   q1Š1É   q1‹1É   q1Œ1Ê   q11Ê   q1Ž1Ê   q11Ê   q11Ë   q1‘1Ë   q1’1Ë   q1“1Ë   q1”1Ë   q1•1Ë   q1–1Ë   q1—1Ë   q1˜1Ë   q1™1Ë   q1š1Ë   q1›1Ë   q1œ1Ë   q11Ë   q1ž1Ë   q1Ÿ1Ë   q1 1Ë   q1¡1Ë   q1¢1Ë   q1£1Ë   q1¤1Ë   q1¥1Ë   q1¦1Ì   q1§1Ì   q1¨1Ì   q1©1Ì   q1ª1Ì   q1«1Ì   q1¬1Ì   q1­1Ì   q1®1Ì   q1¯1Ì   q1°1Ì   q1±1Ì   q1²1Ì   q1³1Ì   q1´1Ì   q1µ1Ì   q1¶              ò1Ì   q1¸1Ì   q1¹1Ì   q1º1Ì   q1»1Ì   q1¼1Ì   q1½1Ì   q1¾1Ì   q1¿1Ì   q1À1Ì   q1Á1Ì   q1Â1Ì   q1Ã1Ì   q1Ä1Ì   q1Å1Ì   q1Æ1Ì   q1Ç1Ì   q1È1Ì   q1É1Ì   q1Ê1Ì   q1Ë1Ì   q1Ì1Ì   q1Í1Ì   q1Î1Ì   q1Ï1Ì   q1Ð1Ì   q1Ñ1Ì   q1Ò1Ì   q1Ó1Ì   q1Ô1Ì   q1Õ1Ì   q1Ö1Ì   q1×1Ì   q1Ø1Ì   q1Ù1Ì   q1Ú1Ì   q1Û1Ì   q1Ü1Ì   q1Ý1Ì   q1Þ1Ì   q1ß1Ì   q1à1Ì   q1á1Ì   q1â1Ì   q1ã1Ì   q1ä1Ì   q1å1Ì   q1æ1Ì   q1ç1Ì   q1è1Ì   q1é1Ì   q1ê1Ì   q1ë1Ì   q1ì1Ì   q1í1Ì   q1î1Ì   q1ï1Ì   q1ð1Ì   q1ñ1Ì   q1ò1Ì   q1ó1Ì   q1ô1Ì   q1õ1Ì   q1ö1Ì   q1÷1Ì   q1ø1Ì   q1ù1Ì   q1ú1Ì   q1û1Ì   q1ü1Ì   q1ý1Ì   q1þ1Í   q1ÿ1Í   q2 1Í   q21Í   q21Í   q21Í   q21Í   q21Í   q21Í   q21Í   q21Í   q2	1Í   q2
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----------



## rgames (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Peter Alexander @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Any person stating that PLAY isn't properly working on their systems without providing this level of information is committing corporate sabotage especially if you're making criticisms and hiding behind a handle.



Consider this: my problem is that a huge number of the samples in SD2 have serious audio quality issues (extreme levels of hiss, and yes, I mean extreme). I know they weren't recorded that way because EWQL has higher production standards than that and many samples are just fine, even some from the same instruments that have bad samples. So it's clearly an issue with the PLAY engine, or maybe my samples got corrupted somehow, I don't know.

Now, do you think EWQL would prefer me to air all this information on a public forum, including posted examples of those bad samples along with samples from competing libraries using the same instrument, same velocity level, and same audio level? That's what I sent to EWQL. The difference is night and day, and if I posted that info to a website like this, well, my guess is that Doug and Nick would not appreciate it.

My point is that this is not (necessarily) the forum to get support for EWQL products. Discussions regarding their support, however, are entirely appropriate.

So, in being discreet, some of us are actually acting out of consideration for the company and its reputation; quite the opposite of corporate sabotage. However, the fact that I'm still waiting for a response, a month on, is worth discussing regardless of what the problem is.

The quality of the support is the essence of the discussion, not the particular problem.

rgames


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



rgames @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Wed Jan 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Any person stating that PLAY isn't properly working on their systems without providing this level of information is committing corporate sabotage especially if you're making criticisms and hiding behind a handle.
> ...



If you have a high level of hiss on some samples, report it. But if there are performance issues that you or anyone else feels the need to report outside the EW forum, then do so professionally and cite your specs. Very simple.


----------



## synergy543 (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

Impressive Red. 
To complete it though, why don't you add the PLAY update version number?

And Peter, you should add it to your suggested list too.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 14, 2009)

"otherwise you'll be in for a lot of reinstalling"

Yes. They're internal drives, and my back-ups are DVDs. Thank goodness these aren't system drives.

And frankly I wonder whether it's more than just bad luck that these were both current Seagates.

http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/01/13/seagate.barracuda.failures/ (http://www.electronista.com/articles/09 ... .failures/)


----------



## rgames (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Peter Alexander @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> If you have a high level of hiss on some samples, report it.



I did - a month ago, and I've followed up several times. I've heard nothing but one boilerplate "install the updates" response.

Not to belabor the point, but my system specs have nothing to do with the issue of non-responsiveness.

My (and others') contribution to this thread is not about any one particular problem; it's about a lack of responsiveness. What OS/CPU/whatever I use has no bearing on that issue.

rgames


----------



## esteso (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*

bottom feeders?

Ok, really this is too much. You should really get over yourself Peter. Don't you have a vested interest in selling Eastwest products?


----------



## NYC Composer (Jan 14, 2009)

I have been reading through this thread with great interest. Rousseau, thanks for publishing your specs, that's helpful ( did you mention what DAW you were using, and did I miss it?) 

It really seems clear, at least anecdotally, that PLAY is not G5 friendly. At the risk of repeating myself here, I think Doug and Nick should probably admit this and do whatever it takes to soothe customers.. change the minimum specs,offer downgrades to NI or refunds or vouchers, whatever, I mean, they make fabulous products. If they accept the kudos and the money, they should also accept that sometimes a ball gets dropped and try to make it right. It shouldn't be this heated or this hard,IMO.


----------



## artsoundz (Jan 14, 2009)

Yet it remains that many, like myself, who have a PPC g-5 have no issues w/play-at least,in my case, for gypsy and MOR. I'spose it's because most G5 owners have a single or dual. Mine is quad and that may be the difference. But, nonetheless, I'll say for the last time I have a G5 and "PLAY" works extremely well and trouble free on my system w/DP 5 

Beyond that,I've read so many stories and to me. most problems are due to either not updating. not enough ram. or minimum system specs. It's clear from EW that minimum isnt going to be the best and it's ,after all, fairly common knowledge to not expect superior performance on an inferior platform.


----------



## Dave Connor (Jan 14, 2009)

I think NYC Composer has it pretty right above.


----------



## cc64 (Jan 14, 2009)

artsoundz @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Yet it remains that many, like myself, who have a PPC g-5 have no issues w/play-at least,in my case, for gypsy and MOR.



I just did a test with the file that seems to be a problem on Rousseau's system.

Glitch Ma XXXitch 4 4 130

Playing the file without problems even with PLAY's reverb on the MOR Drumkit . Actually toggling it on or off does not change much on DP's Audio Performance Meter. 

Note. Safari was open in the background with tons of windows open. So was Mail doing it's thing in the background. I also had an instance of Altiverb idling in the background and an idling instance of Platinum Plus @ 24 bits containing 
Chamber Ensemble Flautendo
50 piece Str Sect Sus
SCL ExpLeg
CTB KS Sus C0-G0

All within DP as AU Plug-ins. MAS plug-in for Altiverb
G5 2X2.5
6 gigs RAM
Play Samples on a LaCIe FW800 external 1 TB disk
OSX 10.4.11
DP 5.13
256 buffer

EDIT: On my machine PLAY engine works best at a setting of 3 contrary to the setting of 5 that is suggested on EastWest's website for slow systems like mine. 

My impressions, PLAY is working a lot better on my machine than what we could expect from reading other people's experiences with a lot more powerful machines.

I still think thought that the Disk Streaming engine on PLAY is not quite as efficient as it could be. Compared to the performance i am getting from my Vienna instrument libraries. This is not scientific just a pretty educated gut feeling ; )

HTH

Best,

CC


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## artsoundz (Jan 14, 2009)

hmmm.. well then....as I suspected. It sounds like G5's arent the problem after all. Maybe my old pal, Dp, has something to do with it. Interesting stuff.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 14, 2009)

well...1. I don't have a Quad
2. I want to run Platinum Plus play.

I would certainly assume an orchestral library to be fairly demanding.
So...with these success stories, anyone running Plat Plus Play on a G5 dual 2gig with great success and plenty of polyphony?


----------



## artsoundz (Jan 14, 2009)

It's always been obvious that some play libraries require a more powerful system than minimum specs. I'm baffled as to why that is so hard to understand. Minimum means minimum and few would expect to get maximum from minimum.


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## redleicester (Jan 15, 2009)

artsoundz @ Thu Jan 15 said:


> It's always been obvious that some play libraries require a more powerful system than minimum specs. I'm baffled as to why that is so hard to understand. Minimum means minimum and few would expect to get maximum from minimum.



So the systems I listed above are deemed to be below minimum spec???!!!

Dear god, are we saying that Play works best on an SGI-farm rig? Blade server? Or just a humble Cray?

>8o


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## NYC Composer (Jan 15, 2009)

artsoundz @ Thu Jan 15 said:


> It's always been obvious that some play libraries require a more powerful system than minimum specs. I'm baffled as to why that is so hard to understand. Minimum means minimum and few would expect to get maximum from minimum.



Nor should one expect 'unusable in any real world way' from minimum specs, IMO.

For me, I'm just waiting to sort this out to decide if I'm forced to upgrade to 8 cores, but really, how many G5 Dual owners would buy Platinum Play if the literature clearly stated.." you can run Platinum Play on a G5 Dual, but fair warning, you'll only get a few notes of polyphony...for any real work, you need a Quadcore minimum, 8 core Intel will be vastly better'.

And if that is indeed the case, why not make it clearer and avoid most of this nonsense?


----------



## Journeyman (Jan 15, 2009)

Controversy aside for a minute here's what I'd like to know (from actual real-world users):

I'm a jazz pianist, currently using Ivory on a G5 dual 2.7 w/ 5 gigs of ram. I can use it on even heavy productions, even using major amounts of polyphony (fast two-fisted chords, fast runs and sustain pedal) with tons of open VI's since it isn't a cpu hog, relatively speaking. I've been absolutely delighted with it, until I heard the new Play pianos. They sound spectacular. So my question is:

On a current top-of-the-line mac, running the latest OS with ample amounts of RAM, how cpu hungry are the new Play Pianos? Without having to resort to 'economy patches', can they be used on one computer in heavy productions with great performance and tons of polyphony, just like I do with Ivory? Or is it too demanding for that, even on an up-to-spec mac? Thanks!


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## madbulk (Jan 15, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Thu Jan 15 said:


> well...1. I don't have a Quad
> 2. I want to run Platinum Plus play.
> 
> I would certainly assume an orchestral library to be fairly demanding.
> So...with these success stories, anyone running Plat Plus Play on a G5 dual 2gig with great success and plenty of polyphony?



For that matter on any system.... anyone running plat plus play on any system and getting plenty of polyphony?
Let's say "plenty" is at or above the 256 or so that a single p4/2.6 produced when Symph Orch was originally released.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 15, 2009)

redleicester @ Thu Jan 15 said:


> artsoundz @ Thu Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> > It's always been obvious that some play libraries require a more powerful system than minimum specs. I'm baffled as to why that is so hard to understand. Minimum means minimum and few would expect to get maximum from minimum.
> ...



Nope, these are the current listed specs for both Mac and PC.


MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR MAC

* G5 or Intel Processor, 2GB RAM, Mac OS 10.4 or higher, DVD drive
* iLok required (not included), internet connection required for one-time product activation


RECOMMENDED MAC SYSTEM

* Core 2 Duo 2.5Ghz or faster processor, 4GB+ RAM, DVD drive
* iLok required (not included), internet connection required for one-time product activation


MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR PC

* P4 2.5Ghz or faster, 2GB RAM, Windows XP SP 2 or Vista, sound card with ASIO drivers, DVD drive
* iLok required (not included), internet connection required for one-time product activation


RECOMMENDED PC SYSTEM:

* Core 2 Duo 2.5Ghz or faster processor, 4GB+ RAM, sound card with ASIO drivers, 64-bit OS and host, DVD drive
* iLok required (not included), internet connection required for one-time product activation


INCLUDED FOR BOTH PC & MAC:

* 32-bit standalone and plug-in versions included
* 64-bit PC VST (host must support 64-bit VST plugins) and standalone versions included
* Check the following compatibility chart for availability of other 64-bit versions and updates.


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## JohnG (Jan 15, 2009)

nobody said redliecester's system was below spec.

If anything, they are so complex that maybe..

Anyway, I am getting a lot of polyphony, but I don't get it all in one instance of PLAY -- it's not recommended to put everything on a single instance so I don't use it that way. 

For bigger cues I use three instances of PLAY, plus Ivory, Kontakt, Zebra, etc. I am writing massively note-y, percussion-heavy, etc. demanding stuff at the moment, and really having no issues.

I am actually keen to get a standalone working and have had help from many participants here trying that. 

Next week.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: PLAY on Mac is a POS...*



Rousseau @ Wed Jan 14 said:


> Peter, with the very greatest respect, you honestly make it sound as though you are EWQL's appointed legal representative and in their employ? Is that the case or not what you intended?



I answered that. I'm speaking for myself. And I explained why.



> Accusing legitimate customers of corporate sabotage because they are daring to complain about the fact they bought a product in good faith which does not work as advertised (ie that is not fit for purpose) is frankly absurd.



I didn't say that. My comments were directed to people who:

1. criticize LOUDLY without citing their system specs, version number (thank you Synergy), what else is loaded, and how they're using the program.

YOU yourself have said that you manage a computer lab at University. YOU write for video games. YOU write for other ensembles. YOU know that NOBODY can tech support anything with inadequate information. 

So come - get real, Bro. This is technology. It requires broader more precise descriptions in order to effectively troubleshoot. 

2. criticize LOUDLY behind a handle, which you do, without identifying who they are so they don't have to be responsible for their words. That's a serious business problem here and outside music technology.

EXAMPLE
_It ain't workin' on me system either, BLOKE._
NUTMEG

To borrow from Warf in a comment made to the Borg: TECH THAT!




> From where I and others are sitting it looks like the company is doing a good job of sabotaging itself.



As Donald Rumsfeld once said: No Comment. 



> There are real and present issues which have yet to be fixed despite the fact that the engine has been available for almost 2 years and SD2 for 9 months. That is the bottom line and the source of the complaints on here and elsewhere on the internet from a phalanx of users (both PC and Mac, some amateurs and some very big pro names). If these issues are ultimately not fixable for whatever reason, then EWQL should say so and refunds should be provided to those that want them (this is the course of action reputable companies take to preserve their credibility in the marketplace and their customer loyalty). And they should, as others have pointed out, modify (yet again) published minimum specs and their advertising strategy. There's only one answer to be found in the MBA textbooks for this type of issue: acknowledge the problem, fix it, offer refunds/compensation/freebies, and do it all FAST. Denial and slagging off your customers is not a sustainable policy, especially in the midst of a serious recession.



I come out of Fortune 500 marketing. I have been a direct IBM client for their AS400 system. All of your business points come right out of the trend set by Silicon Valley companies of sell it and fix it in the mix. 

Go read the minimum system requirements from Steinberg, Cakewalk Sonar, even Apple for Logic. No one wants to put in print that the REAL spec is 8-core for fear of losing sales.

Now, with Vienna, there's a difference because when they released the Vienna Instruments they published their own benchmark tests setting performance expectations down to a PIII! Obviously, faster is better. 

But the industry, not just one company, needs to follow the Vienna example, and set customer expectations. That's reasonable. But read any system spec at any company and the impression you get is that their software works fluidly on all CPUs. How can that be when right now on the PC alone, including AMD, we're looking at up to what, seven different CPUs! 

I support your points as being valid for the industry as a whole. 



> Again, with respect Peter, why do you think I, like millions of others, use a nickname on forums? Not so that I can damage companies with impunity from behind the aegis of anonymity! (who in their right mind wants to do that?), but for the sole reason that I don't get inundated with PMs or emails from ppl wanting jobs, or be accused of promoting my employers when offering advice to others.



Are you that well known? I'm somewhat well known, but I'm not inundated like you talk about, and I write reviews for two online publications. 

But aside from that, Stephen, criticizing constructively is one thing, goading is another. And you goad. Your posts come across as you delighting in sticking it to Nick and Doug. 

In saying that, I think Nick's previous response to you was appalling and discouraging for those dealers who promote products he produces. And that includes companies like Best Service, Time and Space, etc., not just me. 

But that's Nick's responsibility. 

As a college teacher, you're in a position of responsibility which includes being a role model for your students. Goading is poor role modeling.

As I've written you before, you can turn a problem into an opportunity or you can turn it into a bigger problem and perpetuate it. 

Goading perpetuates it.

I think you have a failed opportunity. You will never know, nor the rest of us here, what would have happened had you allowed Doug to work with your system. What if Doug had made arrangements for Michel Post to come to London. Would that have been so bad? Meeting with one of the premier sample developers in the world? 

Arrogance and goading block progress. So you'll never know what might have happened.

And if you took up the offer and nothing was done, well, that would have been a different story, now wouldn't it. 




> Moreover, it has been known that some ppl use their real names and associations in order to give them leverage or influence on forums or for advertising their wares.



Excuse me, but that's called NETIQUETTE. It's a standard business practice to sign your name and below it cite your web site or other info you want people to know about you. That's been going on for almost 20 years. Part of that is called NETWORKING.




> that's something I wouldn't want to be part of (not that I'm particularly well known, influential or interesting as you know



Oh, so instead you write behind a nickname, goad Nick Phoenix and Doug, and leave some people with the impression that you're arrogant. That's a career strategy I haven't pondered too much. 

Overall, I think the netiquette way is better. 

As far as people contacting you because you do that, don't worry. Unless you're in a business network like LinkedIn, most just ignore it. So you're safe.



> You're a very clever guy, you can appreciate that surely?



I would appreciate it more, I suppose, if I was John Williams...



> I represent no one but myself here and that position would be impossible if my identity were known as you well know, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't compromise that.



Are you secretly working for MI6? 



> Now you just suggested to Peter Roos that treating ppl the way you'd like to be treated yourself is the best policy (and I wholeheartedly agree with you - who wouldn't?). Just re-read many of the comments from the company to its customers on these threads - ad hominems galore; is that professional behaviour?



Even though you are The Great Goader, telling you to have sex with a CD is a loss of self-control and terrible leadership. There is NO excuse for that behavior, personal or corporate, and from where I sit, an apology to you and to this forum is in order. 




> Cheers



And to you!


----------



## madbulk (Jan 15, 2009)

JohnG @ Thu Jan 15 said:


> Anyway, I am getting a lot of polyphony, but I don't get it all in one instance of PLAY -- it's not recommended to put everything on a single instance so I don't use it that way.
> 
> For bigger cues I use three instances of PLAY, plus Ivory, Kontakt, Zebra, etc. I am writing massively note-y, percussion-heavy, etc. demanding stuff at the moment, and really having no issues.
> 
> I am actually keen to get a standalone working and have had help from many participants here trying that.



I'm pretty keen on that myself. Soon, like everything else.
Gotta drill down a little here... JG, are you saying you're getting, say 256+ orchestral voices or are you speaking about Play libs in general? (I was pretty sure your orch template was stretched across K2 slaves.)


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## JohnG (Jan 15, 2009)

I honestly can't tell you how many voices I'm getting. I didn't look. But I'm using reams and reams of percussion on this score -- it's full of scenes that need that. And every drum hit is some kind of voice count.

My PLAY stuff is on a Mac quad-core (not octo). The older Kontakt version of the symphonic orch samples are indeed on slave PCs, but I also have the PLAY version of Symphonic Orchestra loaded on the Mac, plus VOP, plus SD2, plus plenty (on this score) of guitars, drums and bass from MOR.

I am using a lot of PLAY and it's working fine.

I haven't checked the polyphony specifically, though it's "a lot."


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## madbulk (Jan 15, 2009)

I wouldn't know how to tell the number of voices myself, truth be told. Hoped you might.


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## JohnG (Jan 15, 2009)

I am on DP 5.13 and here's an example:

as a plug-in, three different instances of PLAY:

1. MOR -- 2 guitars, a bass, a drum kit. I use the built-in fx, especially stereo doubling, which I like a lot.
2. Stormdrum -- 4 to 12 or more drums; sometimes throw in even a symphonic orchestra patch too
3. Voices of Passion OR orchestra -- three different voices with FX etc. OR I use this for Symphonic Orchestra sounds, or both

It's not a rigid setup as I am using PLAY for custom stuff and recurring setups for certain types of cues (more rock-based or more spooky, for example).

But some cues have only one PLAY instance and there may be one in which I've added a fourth instance. There are over 50 starts in the picture.

And again, I also am running Kontakt because I have SAM brass on the same computer and a bunch of other libraries that only run on Kontakt, plus RMX, Ivory, Zebra, Omnisphere -- it's a huge load.

Of all these, Omnisphere is for me by far the most demanding. Excellent, but very demanding.


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## chimuelo (Jan 16, 2009)

JohnG.

Your load is impressive, would you mind sharing your specs.?
Your website contact link doesn't work, so I thought I would try here as a last resort.
I am doing a new build and will have 2 PC slaves as a result of this.
Large loads are a primary concern of mine, and PLAY seems to go beyond the current mock ups.
I understand why guys can be frustrated, but you actually seem to have a handle on things and me being an optimist prefer to stay optimistic and take a chance with PLAY as I have admired Nick Phoenix's sample libraries since the old QL Brass for Giga. After 9 years I can say it has been replaced, but it was ahead of the curve back then, and PLAY seems to be displaying the same bravery.

I will explain my needs.
This will be for live work first most.
I use hardware reverbs, so won't need to waste resources on those.
I use the Scope DSP Platform for all other effects like Brainrox, SPL,etc.
Hardware DSP and Analog synths.
I only want to stream samples and already have a nice collection of Raptors.

I have used PC DAW's for years, but have always recorded in ProTools Mac rigs, even way back when the 1GB shoebox Hard Drives were new..... :roll: 
I think I am ready for a Mac rig w/ Xeons.
I was going to try an i7 PC build, but this year there are an alarming ratio of buggy motherboards from the top tier guys reaching my favorite reviewer, so he has convinced me to wait.

I don't want to wait, so what would you suggest for a live rig that could implement these massive Romplers.

Thanks In Advance, and nice website too. o-[][]-o 

JBV


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## Synesthesia (Jan 16, 2009)

I am fascinated by the ongoing mystery of the GlitchmaXXX whatever it is.

So today I loaded it up. I never use the multis usually. I just installed the latest Play 1.1.6. I loaded an empty Logic 8 session, loaded the multi in question after rather fearfully SuperDuper-ing my system drive in case it got corrupted in some way, and proceeded to muller the keyboard with the mouse on every part in the multi to see if I could bring the house down.

It seemed to work perfectly. I was so surprised that I downloaded a free trial of Snapz Pro X and video-ed it to upload here. I genuinely thought it would crash Logic from everything I've been reading here - to the extent that I've never used the multis.

I can't comment on any PC related problems as I'm on a mac, but this certainly doesn't affect macs.

Play certainly didn't wilt under the fusillade of note-ons I attacked it with.

Anyway, here tis for anyone interested.

cheers!

Paul

http://wikisend.com/download/962222/Glitchtrial.mov (Glitchtrial.mov)

EDIT:: Whoops. System specs! Mac Pro Quad 2x3GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon with 16 GB 667 MHz DDRS2 FB-Dimms, four internal 1TB drives. Logic 8.0.2 with RME fireface 800. Enough plugins to make my bank manager cry.

EDIT:: FULL DISCLOSURE: I have been a demo maker for EW in the past. I have however paid for most of my EW software. So I am a paying customer as well.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks for that Paul, and that looks like a great App. 

Can you now do the test properly please :D Load up the midi file that triggers the multi, and see what gives when you try to play it all at once. 

Also, as another test, HOLD down the drone patch and let it cycle since it's a loop. 

If you could vid the results and repost, that'd be great. 

Cheers


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## madbulk (Jan 16, 2009)

This is already great of you. 
But yeah, do it properly.
(Yup, sounds rude when I say it too. Where's that smiley?)


There.


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## Synesthesia (Jan 16, 2009)

OK.. your wish is my .. etc.

I am actually busy believe it or not (!) but here it is playing the midi file. I ramped up the tempo halfway through as I realised I was running at 120. 

I also mullered the keyboard again towards the end.

I really cant spend any more time on this - I forgot to do the drone, maybe someone else can take up the slack?

http://wikisend.com/download/643214/glitchy2.mov (glitchy2.mov)

It does clearly work fine here. Good usage, disk streaming setting just 'out of the box' I haven't changed anything.

Cheers!

Paul


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## madbulk (Jan 16, 2009)

Synesthesia @ Fri Jan 16 said:


> I am actually busy believe it or not (!)
> I really cant spend any more time on this.
> Paul



Bastard. Selfish bastard.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 16, 2009)

Synesthesia @ Fri Jan 16 said:


> OK.. your wish is my .. etc.
> 
> I am actually busy believe it or not (!) but here it is playing the midi file. I ramped up the tempo halfway through as I realised I was running at 120.
> 
> ...



Ta Paul - so that's what it sounds like! 

I'll record a shot of what gives on my systems and post it up too, so we can compare. 

Cheers


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## JohnG (Jan 16, 2009)

chimuelo @ 16th January 2009 said:


> Your load is impressive, would you mind sharing your specs.?



I'm not sure whether being told one's load is impressive is the compliment of a lifetime but...

I use an out of the box Mac. It's Intel, has four 3.0 GHz processors (two x dual), and four hard drives (boot, sample, sample plus video, sample plus record). The libraries are spread around to reduce the strain on the disks.

I do very little effects processing beyond the built-in FX on samples (like Omnisphere). Reverb, like yours, is outboard.

One problem with my system is my addiction in DP to Aux sends for everything. This creates flexibility, but is a huge resource strain and probably introduces some latency; so the point of that is that one could probably load even more than I am loading. I should probably be monitoring through the audio tracks instead.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 16, 2009)

even worse if you're considered to have a 'wide load.'

On the subject of large loads, however, is the setup you're describing equivalent to 100, 150 EW Symphonic voices? are you getting that sort of polyphony? I don't have MOR or Voices of Passion, but a guitar sample usually takes A voice, a vocal sample A voice, ok, maybe a few of each, still nothing like the required polyphony for a sample based symphonic composition.


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## JohnG (Jan 16, 2009)

Hi Larry,

Sorry -- no idea on voices and in any event, with Ivory, Zebra, Kontakt, sometimes a little RMX, and quite a bit of Omnisphere on some of these cues, plus the fact that I spread the PLAY voices out over three different instances, I don't think that my results would really tell anyone anything. 

I think given how I'm using it, there's no direct answer to your question, other than to say the computer is handling a huge load in addition to the PLAY libraries. Many of the cues are long, large-scale action cues with tons and tons of percussion and drum kit tracks, guitars, strings and brass (some orchestra playing off the Mac, the large majority off slaves). Every one of the samples from East West has a release trail (as far as I know) and many of the PLAY elements (guitars, VOP, some Stormdrum) have FX; the Omnisphere patches and plenty of the Kontakt-based sounds have both releases and FX like compression, distortion and / or delays on them -- so with all that, I don't think it's possible to say how many voices, given all that going on.

I kind of stop at "it's all working." Which it is. 

I hasten to add that I doubt any one computer could run all that my Mac is handling, plus, in addition, a full set of orchestral samples (many 32 bit slaves hold the orchestra). Maybe if I could ever figure out how to get standalone instances working -- that's a project coming up.

And on top of all the above, I've been using the Mac to record to audio to create stems for the engineer, so that's another demand on it that it's meeting.

The only thing that is off-loaded that might not be typical is reverb -- using an external hardware reverb. Still haven't fallen in love with software reverb (though of course the box itself is really software, so I guess what I just wrote is nonsense).


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## cc64 (Jan 16, 2009)

Ok so here's a movie of my system in action with the infamous Glitch MaXXX SD2 patch.

http://www.box.net/shared/m6r17hbhl8

I've loaded the said MIDIFILE plus i noodled-in some Marcato lines and a drone bassline in Platinum,note some wrong notes for authenticity in there also = ; o ).

Everything is playing live in the movie. I even launched an active Altiverb instance for fun. There's also one idling in the background. I did not even bother with closing our beloved VI-Control page in Safari as you see in the BG.

I'm running all this on:

G5 2X2.5
6 gigs RAM
256 buffer setting

The Audio performance window does go into the red a lot but DPs CPU performance window as aways been very unreliable, i rely on my ears mostly. Thus you will hear the system bleeding to death only 2 times during the tune and i believe it happens when there are 64th note snare rolls happening on the MOR Black Kit.

So as i said before, i still think there's place for improvement on the disk streaming part of PLAY, based on my experience with other engines. But all in all, not bad at all for the dinosaur i'm using.

HTH

Claude


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## madbulk (Jan 16, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Fri Jan 16 said:


> even worse if you're considered to have a 'wide load.'
> 
> On the subject of large loads, however, is the setup you're describing equivalent to 100, 150 EW Symphonic voices? are you getting that sort of polyphony? I don't have MOR or Voices of Passion, but a guitar sample usually takes A voice, a vocal sample A voice, ok, maybe a few of each, still nothing like the required polyphony for a sample based symphonic composition.



I guess the question remains, Can I get more EW Symphonic Voices from an 8-core mac running than I got five years ago from a P4 with 2GB of Ram. That number would approach 256 stereo voices unless my memory is really shot! I'm not interested in talking about 100-150 as though that's kool at this point.

I understand, thanks to NB's probably waning patience, HD's aren't any faster. But they aren't any slower either. And there's FOUR of em in there.

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this is an interesting question. I put it on SOL 24 hours ago and got not a single response. By the time you can smell yourself, you really need to take a shower. And even I recognize that this is getting old.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 16, 2009)

No vids, since I can't find a decent PC program to do it, but here's some links to MP3s I've just thrown down.



First is the MIDI multi in question (this is also how it works on colleague's machines)

http://www.box.net/shared/jgdfem1e0o


This one is pops and clicks on a MOR bass played fast - just played straight in with complete disregard for musicality or tempo (sorry about that) 

http://www.box.net/shared/4bxum1gkpg


This one is more subtle, but equally irritating; click right in the middle of sample from VOP

http://www.box.net/shared/0pk1m9obxq


This next one is simply mondo hiss on a sample from VOP

http://www.box.net/shared/fbcj9faccn


This next one is more hiss and clicks from VOP

http://www.box.net/shared/arqtu3itlc


Cheers


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## chimuelo (Jan 16, 2009)

Thanks Johnny G. 8)


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## NYC Composer (Jan 16, 2009)

JohnG @ Fri Jan 16 said:


> Hi Larry,
> 
> Sorry -- no idea on voices and in any event, with Ivory, Zebra, Kontakt, sometimes a little RMX, and quite a bit of Omnisphere on some of these cues, plus the fact that I spread the PLAY voices out over three different instances, I don't think that my results would really tell anyone anything.
> 
> ...



Hiya John. Thanks for the reply.

Yes, each system is idiosyncratic, and software matters ( I'm a Luddite dinosaur, using Cubase SX3 on Mac because, well, it WORKS)..but it does seem to me that it's like the story of Tantalus, this chase after one computer powerful enough to do it all.
8 cores, 20 cores, it will either cover all your needs or it won't, with the latter always seeming to be the case. The fruit always seems to be just out of reach.

May I ask you how you hook up your slave computers?


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## Moonchilde (Jan 16, 2009)

Peter, to be fair to Russou, he has posted several times his specs, especially in the past when he first started talkin so much about it. I don't think he should post his specs every time the discussion comes up. Since it comes up quite a bit, that woul be posting redundant information more than one cares to, and this has been a topic beaten over and over for some time.

I think one of his problems is that there is bug going on with his set up an PLAY that his set up should have no problems with. He meets the recommended requirements since he has a Core2Duo. I think its fair to say PLAY should work just fine on his PC. He mentions 1 single samle makes PLAY roll over. I recall Doug or Nick saying his machine isn't up to snuff because PLAY is pushing the boundaries.

I really think that is unfair, especially since he has personally sent a note to them with his specs, which meets recommendation, and then told to update.

Would you consider this before going on about netiquette to post specs with complaints? Its such a common topic here, would you really want to post your specs over and over and over everytime you joined in on a discussion about a topic you have a history with?

Also, what is so bad with net handles? You say netiquette has been around for 20 years, but you know, so have handles, and people who have handles also practice ettiquete online. I've had this handle for quite a while, and I don't deviate from it. I also don't have a bunch of accounts here, so its not like I'm takin advantage of it to voice multiple instances of my opinion. I don't think Rousseau is either, He stance hasn't changed, and I really don't think he has anything to gain by using a handle vs his real name when it comes to this topic. What does it matter? Again, he isn't creating a bunch of user names and slandering, simply stating his unsatisfaction with a product and the developer's handling of it.

I personally would feel the same way if they treated me the way they treat him. Saying he needs a new PC after the fact they've had his specs, and then ignoring it to say PLAY pushes the boundaries is poor IMO. They treat him as if he doesn't have the ability to comprehend technology because PLAY still has an issue on his PC. Its rather insulting, and the comment Nick posted backs up that notion of how they think of him by stating the DVD goes in the PC. He also has been vocal about their choice to ban people who discuss PLAY not working on the SO forums. He hasn't started new topics on this since his original one or two, merely joined in on a discussion other people have started. So, how exactly is that constant goading? Thats not antagonizing, thats adding another voice to an opinion.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 16, 2009)

Moonchilde @ Fri Jan 16 said:


> Peter, to be fair to Russou, he has posted several times his specs, especially in the past when he first started talkin so much about it. I don't think he should post his specs every time the discussion comes up. Since it comes up quite a bit, that woul be posting redundant information more than one cares to, and this has been a topic beaten over and over for some time.
> 
> I think one of his problems is that there is bug going on with his set up an PLAY that his set up should have no problems with. He meets the recommended requirements since he has a Core2Duo. I think its fair to say PLAY should work just fine on his PC. He mentions 1 single samle makes PLAY roll over. I recall Doug or Nick saying his machine isn't up to snuff because PLAY is pushing the boundaries.
> 
> ...




Thanks Moonchilde! I appreciate the support mate. Long time no speak - How goes it? 8) .

Peter is simply voicing firmly held beliefs and I respect him for that - and I actually think he's been fair throughout this whole sorry saga; as a vendor himself he's just trying to be a part of the solution I think. I do disagree with him about the handles, but then we can't win them all :D 

Anyway moonchilde, you're wrong about one thing: I have a Quad Core so I meet the recommended specs :mrgreen: Colleagues with exactly the same issues exceed them by a significant margin too. 

As for Nick giving me grief, I've been called worse in my time. It's just a pity that he couldn't think of a better use for one his DVDs. 

Anyway, let's hope they employ some better coders, engineers and beta testers and hurry up and fix this damn thing.

Cheers


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## JohnG (Jan 16, 2009)

Rousseau @ 16th January 2009 said:


> No vids, since I can't find a decent PC program to do it, but here's some links to MP3s I've just thrown down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is this pretty much the summary of what you've been objecting to? This list? or is there something else?

Again, I am not having problems with any of the multis I've used (haven't tried them all), so I am wondering if it's just this one for you or more.


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## Stephen Baysted (Jan 16, 2009)

JohnG @ Fri Jan 16 said:


> Rousseau @ 16th January 2009 said:
> 
> 
> > No vids, since I can't find a decent PC program to do it, but here's some links to MP3s I've just thrown down.
> ...




These are just a few quick examples - lots more things like that - just didn't have the time or the inclination to do any more. Worth remembering of course that inspite of EWQL's original claim that there was nothing wrong with PLAY, they have managed to fix quite a lot since March with their updates.

Cheers


----------



## JohnG (Jan 16, 2009)

Just loaded the Glitch Ma XXXitch and it plays perfectly here. 

And have been using VOP very prominently in a score and have not had any problems with any of the notes either; in fact, all that has been remixed and my engineer didn't have any issues with the sound. Using the Syrian, Bulgarian, and Indian voices only.

So maybe it's your system. Perhaps there is an interaction of some kind?


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jan 16, 2009)

OBSERVATIONS - Please confirm or correct

In looking at all this, I'm seeing some patterns that I'm presenting so that we can use our collective skills together to arrive at realistic specs today for PLAY on both PC and Mac.

Nick Phoenix published on this forum that PLAY was designed for 8-cores and above. So let's start there. If you have an 8- or Quad core - please comment.

8-CORE
PC - minimal operational problems
MAC - minimal operational problems - needs IAC or Soundflower to access additional RAM

QUAD CORE
PC - minimal operational issues except for Steinberg products, Cubase and Nuendo
MAC - minimal operational problems - needs IAC or Soundflower to access additional RAM

MINIMUM RAM
4GB regardless of platform.

HARD DRIVES
Agreed (Y/N) that 7200RPM and above are best.


CONCLUSION
Let's start with these specs _only_ for now. We'll tackle other CPUs later. For this go round, please, only those with 8- or Quad-cores respond. When responding please cite your PLAY version number and your sequencing program along with its version number.

Thanks!

PA


----------



## Peter Alexander (Jan 16, 2009)

Moonchilde - do what other writers do, make your specs part of your signature on the forum.


----------



## rgames (Jan 16, 2009)

Can anybody here come up with an explanation of how the PLAY engine could cause the hiss? As I mentioned above, I have the same problem as the samples posted by Rousseau. Same type of hiss all over SD2. I've found a few problems with hum and pops, but most of the problems are with high-freq hiss.

There's no way they recorded them that way, so it's got to be something in the player. Also, I've found at least one sample where the hiss only shows up on one channel (right). And, of course, a lot of the samples are fine.

(Still waiting for a reply from EWQL tech support, many weeks now...)

rgames


----------



## oldbrian (Jan 17, 2009)

when a sampler runs out of polyphony and starts cutting off older notes it can sound something like this, also when it can't stream fast enough the samples it can cause some pops but whether it's the case here or not i don't know, i'm only guessing, i don't own Play products.


----------



## gmet (Jan 17, 2009)

Peter,

It's great to see that you are trying to get to the bottom of the problem, however I simply don't have the inclination to waste any more time on this (I lost hours/days last time round)

This experience has left a 'sour taste' as I never expected to be on the receiving end of offensive comments by product developers for simply pointing out that there is a problem. I will stick to what works for me from now on (i.e. Kontakt based samples).

Regards,

Justin M
(for the sake of disclosure you can read all about me on my website link below and my system specs are in my sig)
EDIT : I should also mention that I WAS on the beta team and did the tech support thing.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 17, 2009)

oldbrian @ Sat Jan 17 said:


> when a sampler runs out of polyphony and starts cutting off older notes it can sound something like this, also when it can't stream fast enough the samples it can cause some pops but whether it's the case here or not i don't know, i'm only guessing, i don't own Play products.



Absolutely, only in this case 1 single sample (monophonic) produces the same dropout issue. 

Given the amount of ppl experiencing the same issues (dropouts, hiss, pops, clicks, crashes) it would be amazing indeed if none of these problems had never emerged on any of EWQL's systems either in product development, BETA testing or indeed bug fixing.


----------



## oldbrian (Jan 17, 2009)

Rousseau @ Sat Jan 17 said:


> oldbrian @ Sat Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > when a sampler runs out of polyphony and starts cutting off older notes it can sound something like this, also when it can't stream fast enough the samples it can cause some pops but whether it's the case here or not i don't know, i'm only guessing, i don't own Play products.
> ...



yes, the examples you have posted had way too few voices for this to happen. however, these might be the products of some false alarm that makes Play or your host start cutting things, messing up buffers etc. though is i've said i'm only guessing so i might be talking about totally unrelated things. nevertheless, this is an issue which should be handled by the dev team.


----------



## rgames (Jan 17, 2009)

How can the polyphony problem cause hiss and/or hum? Clicks, pops, dropout are obvious problems associated with polyphony issues, but hiss? And only on one channel for some samples? That just doesn't make sense to me.

rgames


----------



## JohnG (Jan 17, 2009)

this thread is for Mac users and PLAY -- these posts seem back on to PCs, though please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not that PC users' needs shouldn't be delved into -- that's what we are trying to do -- but let's please stick with Mac on this thread, given its title, or else specifically identify that you are talking about a PC issue.

Separately, I have to say that I see no convincing evidence that "lots" of people are having major problems with PLAY. On this forum, I have seen many posts, but by a relatively small number of people. Even if there were 100, or even 200 people having problems, that would still constitute a tiny fraction of PLAY users, so let's please keep some kind of perspective. 

When I am having trouble with a critical piece of gear or software, I certainly am tempted to think it's a widespread problem. It's like buying a Prius -- suddenly everyone seems to have one.

Citing an unidentified other forum as evidence that there are widespread problems doesn't really cut it for evidence. Judging by the posts on Native Instruments' site, you would think that Kontakt is practically unusable with ProTools and is full of flaws and bugs. In my experience, however, Kontakt 2.2.4 is very solid and not at all buggy, but you wouldn't think so from their forum.


----------



## JohnG (Jan 17, 2009)

Peter Alexander @ 16th January 2009 said:


> OBSERVATIONS - Please confirm or correct
> 
> MAC - minimal operational problems - needs IAC or Soundflower to access additional RAM



I think that the RAM point is not the full story, as there is an alternative to standalone that already works with PLAY. 

Once your DAW runs low on memory, you can continue to load samples into new PLAY instances by disabling streaming and loading them into RAM. This allows one to take advantage of much more RAM.

However, this non-streaming approach obviously is not as memory-efficient as standalone instances that do allow streaming. Best for samples whose overall size is relatively low compared with the pre-load amount, such as percussion.


----------



## Stephen Baysted (Jan 17, 2009)

JohnG @ Sat Jan 17 said:


> Separately, I have to say that I see no convincing evidence that "lots" of people are having major problems with PLAY. On this forum, I have seen many posts, but by a relatively small number of people. Even if there were 100, or even 200 people having problems, that would still constitute a tiny fraction of PLAY users, so let's please keep some kind of perspective.



I do see your point of view John. However, once an issue is reproducable on more than one machine in the same given circumstances, then it is a serious issue which requires a fix; this is the THE golden rule of beta testing and bug fixing when developing software - any software. 

The process of development, and I've been involved at the sharp end of development working day in day out with coding teams for a decade, is always the same no matter what you're doing. You test the software to absolute and utter destruction again and again and again. Yes it's damned hard particularly and especially if you're developing your own proprietary tech. But the rewards are greater of course. 

Let me also say that of course, perfection doesn't exist and there will always be very minor issues that slip through the net. But those reported are not minor issues of course. 


Cheers


----------



## rgames (Jan 17, 2009)

JohnG @ Sat Jan 17 said:


> Even if there were 100, or even 200 people having problems, that would still constitute a tiny fraction of PLAY users, so let's please keep some kind of perspective.


Who cares what the percentage is?

Are you saying that that 100 or 200 people is an "acceptable number of people screwed"? Has EWQL officially made that statement? So it's like Ford and the Pinto: they knew they had exploding gas tanks and rather than fix the problem, they calculated that the monetary risk associated with the accidents was acceptable from a business standpoint, so screw 'em.

Furthermore, if it's such a small percentage, then EWQL's tech support should have an easy job of getting everything taken care of! They could at least *RESPOND* to support requests.

The measure of a company is not whether they get it right the first time; it's if they get it right in the end. If EWQL is, indeed, taking the stance that the "unlucky few" are just screwed, well, I think that says a lot.

rgames


----------



## amplayer (Jan 17, 2009)

rgames @ Sat Jan 17 said:


> JohnG @ Sat Jan 17 said:
> 
> 
> > Even if there were 100, or even 200 people having problems, that would still constitute a tiny fraction of PLAY users, so let's please keep some kind of perspective.


Who cares what the percentage is?

Are you saying that that 100 or 200 people is an "acceptable number of people screwed"? Has EWQL officially made that statement? So it's like Ford and the Pinto: they knew they had exploding gas tanks and rather than fix the problem, they calculated that the monetary risk associated with the accidents was acceptable from a business standpoint, so screw 'em.

Furthermore, if it's such a small percentage, then EWQL's tech support should have an easy job of getting everything taken care of! They could at least *RESPOND* to support requests.

The measure of a company is not whether they get it right the first time; it's if they get it right in the end. If EWQL is, indeed, takiòÀ   ’3áÀ   ’3âÀ   ’3ãÀ   ’3äÀ   ’3åÀ   ’3æÀ   ’3çÀ   ’3èÀ   ’3éÀ   ’3êÀ   ’3ëÀ   ’3ìÀ   ’3íÀ   ’3îÀ   ’3ïÀ   ’3ðÀ   ’3ñÀ   ’3òÀ   ’3óÀ   ’3ôÀ   ’3õÀ   ’3öÀ   ’3÷À   ’3øÀ   ’3ùÀ   ’3úÀ   ’3ûÀ   ’3üÀ   ’3ýÀ   ’3þÀ   ’3ÿÀ   ’4 À   ’4À   ’4À   ’4À   ’4À   ’4À   ’4À   ’4À   ’4À   ’4	À   ’4
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----------



## amplayer (Jan 18, 2009)

artsoundz @ Sun Jan 18 said:


> "It is clear to me that Play simply doesn't work in disk streaming mode at all on G5 computers."
> 
> Respectfully- There are several "PLAY" libraries.
> 
> ...



Oops. Yes, you are right. My problem is with PLAY powered EWQLSO. I expect that SD2 and a few products that don't have many long samples would be fine with Play. However, it is clear that the Play disk streaming engine on G5 computers is VASTLY inferior to Kontakt.
I sure hope they fix it because there really is no reason that Play should be so inferior to Kontakt with respect to disk streaming.


----------



## artsoundz (Jan 20, 2009)

I installed SD2 (play) today on my G5 quad/Dp4.6/6 gb ram and it runs smooth as can be. no hiccuòÁ:   ’tSÁ:   ’tTÁ:   ’tUÁ:   ’tVÁ:   ’tWÁ:   ’tXÁ:   ’tYÁ:   ’tZÁ:   ’t[Á:   ’t\Á:   ’t]Á:   ’t^Á:   ’t_Á:   ’t`Á:   ’taÁ:   ’tbÁ:   ’tcÁ:   ’tdÁ:   ’teÁ:   ’tfÁ:


----------



## amplayer (Jan 21, 2009)

Peter Alexander @ Tue Jan 20 said:


> amplayer @ Tue Jan 20 said:
> 
> 
> > artsoundz @ Tue Jan 20 said:
> ...



I have a dual 2.7 GHz G5 with 8 Gigabytes of RAM, which I posted several times in this thread.

There's no reason we should need an 8-core computer to stream a couple hundred voices from disk at once. Kontakt 3 can do that on my machine without breaking a sweat!

Disk Streaming is my problem with PLAY. PLAY is about 20 times worse at disk streaming than Kontakt 3 is when using the same EWQLSO library! Right now, I can't get PLAY to just work with one or two violins reliably unless I'm careful not to play simultaneous notes. That isn't reasonable because violins are capable of playing double stops. Plus, when composing, it is often handy to go ahead and play chords even though they will be replaced with single notes later. Once again, there is NO PROBLEM playing EWQLSO when using Kontakt 3. The problem is only with PLAY!

This has nothing to do with how many cores are available. The simple fact is that the PLAY disk streaming engine needs work. I know this, because if I load these same instruments all into RAM, it works just fine with PLAY. Of course, even with 8 Gigabytes of RAM, the amount of instruments that can be loaded simultaneously is VERY small. Plus, loading up 7 Gigabytes of instruments in Play (as plugin in Logic 8.02) makes the whole computer VERY sluggish.

The PLAY disk streaming engine is simply not very good yet, and I'm waiting for them to fix it. At the moment, I'm starting to think they are not going to fix it. If not, they will just require top end computers be used as a way to overcome their inferior disk streaming engine. Basically, that is like telling you that you need an HVAC system for a Manhattan skyscraper to heat your 2000 square foot house. The fact that Kontakt can easily play the same library 20 times better than Play can on the same machine proves this.

Once again, I love the EastWest sounds. Their pricing is also ridiculously low. However, this is the first time I've ever purchased a VI that is completely unusable on my system, and that means I have a very expensive paper weight that has the appearance of a symphonic orchestra library. Unless they fix their disk streaming engine, I'm up the creek without a paddle...

I'd love to purchase Silk and EWQL Pianos. Until/unless they fix the Play disk streaming engine, there is simply no way I'd do it. Why should I buy another paper weight?


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## JB78 (Jan 21, 2009)

+1 regarding your post amplayer!

My setup:

G5 2.5 ghz Quad 8 gb ram
2 internal harddrives, one FW 800 external.
Logic 8.02
Tiger 10.4.11
Apogee Duet

I have RA, Platinum xp/Gold xp and Symphonic Choirs all in the original NI versions. I'm extremely happy with all of them and they have worked great with Kontakt 3 on my system, that's why I jumped on the opportunity to upgrade to Platinum Plus for PLAY. 
I knew that I wouldn't get the same performance as the guys with Intel-Macs but I hoped that it would at least come close to K3's performance on my gear. 
I've tried all engine settings and without reverb etc...it still is practically unusable at a buffersize of 256, snap crackle and pop galore :? 
At 512 it's a bit better but still nowhere NEAR K3 at 256 which is disappointing and it's extremely annoying to try to work at that latency IMO. 

Maybe it's a Logic issue but even in stand-alone I get basically the same problems.


When all is said and done though I don't regret getting the upgrade since I hopefully will be able to use it when I upgrade my DAW. 
If I hadn't had this bad performance with the SO I'd buy SD2 and Silk in a heartbeat, now I'll wait for either a functioning update or hold off until I get a new Mac.


Best regards
Jon


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## amplayer (Jan 22, 2009)

I downloaded and installed the latest Play update that came out today.
My results thus far for Play 1.1.13 on a Mac G5 dual 2.7 GHz are below.

1) Play Standalone works pretty good! Woo hoo! I'm not sure how I can use it in standalone mode for my work, but it's good to have something working. I have tried Soundflower, but I've found that it isn't very reliable.

2) Play as a plugin in Logic 8.0.2 is still not working well at all with a 256 samples buffer even though K3 works great with the same samples. Bummer.

3) Play as a plugin in Motu DP 5.13 is working pretty good. When I use the DP CPU meter with Play, I see it peaking but it doesn't seem to cause issues for some reason. The CPU meter in DP is nearly as high as in Logic 8, but the dropouts that occur in Logic 8 don't happen in DP until WAY more notes hit simultaneously. Curious, but I'm not sure I believe DP's CPU meter anyways since it has only a single display even though I have 2 CPUs.
Kontakt still uses less memory and less CPU than Play to do the same thing in DP, but this is WAY better than it was before.

Let me say that overall, I am MUCH happier! This is a major step in the right direction! Thank You East West!

I also noticed that I now have a Play application for my RA library. This came for free and unexpectedly. I haven't tried it out yet, but major Kudos to EastWest for providing it for free!

Edit: The RA Play version costs $99 as an upgrade. The Platinum Play installer gave me the RA Play app, but it needs a new library. Considering Kontakt still works better, I don't think I'll be "upgrading" RA. On the other hand, if they fix the disk streaming engine in Logic, I'll consider purchasing Silk.

Also, for EWQLSO, the new Keyswitch Master programs are much handier than the Kontakt versions. I've found that these KS Master patches are all that is needed. Plus, since you can easily unload the samples you don't need, it is easy and quick to get just what you do need.

Performance issues aside, I like the Play interface. All the important information is clearly displayed.


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## artsoundz (Jan 22, 2009)

Great news! I'm happy for you.

I agree on the Dp CPU meter. I dont even look at it much anymore-I just listen for the artifacts.

This is also good news for G5's. Makes it a lot more fun.


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## amplayer (Jan 23, 2009)

Waywyn @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> amplayer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > I have tried Soundflower, but I've found that it isn't very reliable.
> ...



To be fair, I haven't tried it for a quite a while. Maybe it has been improved? Plus, I've never tried it with Play. I've only used it with Kontakt 2. I haven't even tried with Kontakt 3 because it has been a while.
Anyway, Soundflower crashed every now and then, and occasionally caused the DAW to crash as well if I remember.

Also, I recently went looking for the latest Soundflower, and either Soundflowerbed or Soundflower itself was hard to find and configure.

Are you successfully using Soundflower? If so, can you give me some hints?


----------



## Waywyn (Jan 23, 2009)

amplayer @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> Waywyn @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > amplayer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> ...



Well to be honest, I don't like working with standalone players too much. I change patches so often here and then and forget to save the changed template to the actual track or save the default template ... then every other tracks change too etc. ... pure alex chaos )
It also happened that my aggregate device kinda got lost. Not sure if I did that or if it just vanished, but anyway.

However, I had a few crackles after a while but recently someone posted the simple solution to it. You just have to set the clock to soundflower and not internal (in the audio and midi setup of the OSX).

By doing this it worked absolutely fine. Maybe that fix your problem too? Not sure, just guessin ...


----------



## Doug Rogers (Jan 23, 2009)

There's a 12 minute "live" video Nick did with SILK at last week's NAMM, everything is working perfectly on his MAC. Make sure you keep PLAY updated, each new update fixes anything that was reported to us since the previous update. The latest update is 1.1.13 and you can download it with any new instrument updates here -

http://www.soundsonline.com/updates.php

Video is here -

http://www.soundsonline.com/Quantum-Lea ... W-185.html

We also posted audio demos for SILK and SD2 PRO Upgrade.

Cheers,

- DR


----------



## JohnG (Jan 23, 2009)

amplayer @ 23rd January 2009 said:


> Are you successfully using Soundflower? If so, can you give me some hints?



Well, apart from clocking to Soundflower, which may or may not be an option, another person posted that you have to increase the buffer for Soundflower itself and that helps with crackles.

Haven't tested this myself.


----------



## madbulk (Jan 23, 2009)

Waywyn @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> However, I had a few crackles after a while but recently someone posted the simple solution to it. You just have to set the clock to soundflower and not internal (in the audio and midi setup of the OSX).
> By doing this it worked absolutely fine. Maybe that fix your problem too? Not sure, just guessin ...



This did not fix soundflower for me. Maybe the problem is my motu 828. Maybe it's that I'm trying to run multiple K2's or K3's. Soundflower might not be the culprit at all. But standalone is still a failure here.


----------



## amplayer (Jan 23, 2009)

Doug Rogers @ Fri Jan 23 said:


> There's a 12 minute "live" video Nick did with SILK at last week's NAMM, everything is working perfectly on his MAC. Make sure you keep PLAY updated, each new update fixes anything that was reported to us since the previous update. The latest update is 1.1.13 and you can download it with any new instrument updates here -
> 
> http://www.soundsonline.com/updates.php
> 
> ...



I am very happy your 1.1.13 made the Play standalone and Play in DP 5.13 work on my Mac. I am still waiting for a fix that will also make it work in Logic. K3 works great in Logic with Gold Pro XP and so I expect Play to work in Logic with Symphonic Orchestra Platinum Plus samples since they are the same 16-bit samples.
Should we expect another version of Play soon that will fix this?
Once again, I am thrilled that 1.1.13 gives me something that works! Keep up the good work!


----------



## amplayer (Jan 23, 2009)

UPDATE:

It is certainly not a deal breaker for me, but instantiating a VST version of Play and trying to use it to play EWQLSO Platinum Plus samples is totally unusable on my system. It is even worse than in Logic.

For now, only DP 5.13 has produced usable results with Play and EWQLSO Platinum Plus on my 2.7 GHz G5 with 8 Gbytes RAM.
Fortunately, if I had to make a choice of which DAW would work, DP would be it. I like Logic better for most other tasks, and I really love Live for certain tasks. However, for orchestral stuff, DP is the best IMHO anyways, so the fact that Play works in DP still makes me a happy camper!


----------



## tripit (Jan 25, 2009)

Doug Rogers @ Sun Jan 25 said:


> amplayer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > UPDATE:
> ...



While you're here Doug, any idea on when Play might be compatible with DP using DAE??
Thanks


----------



## amplayer (Jan 25, 2009)

Doug Rogers @ Sun Jan 25 said:


> amplayer @ Fri Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > UPDATE:
> ...



I have the latest versions of both Play and Logic.


----------



## Crescendo (Jan 30, 2009)

I think I know the issue the original poster wrote about.
And I have a solution to offer...

I had the very same problem. After loading a number of instruments Logic got sluggish, PLAY kept crashing, spinning wheel, grey background and bye-bye!

The reason was that the virtual memory of Logic reached the critical mass of 3,5-4GB

Logic won't warn you, but if you open the 'Console' in the utilities folder it will tell you.
You can also open the Activity Monitor and watch the amount of virtual memory Logic is currently using.

The more PLAY plugin instances you use the more virtual memory gets used. Also each articulation will eat up some. If you have significantly more than 4GB RAM available for samples you will not be able to use it. At least not with plugin-instances.

Whether Apple is to blame or EW is probably not easy to say:
Apple should have Logic spit out a warning whenever AU plugins push it to the limit of the virtual memory and offer to not further load data or skip the AU instance in question.
EW on the other hand might find a way to catch the message that is sent to the Console to inform about impending instability and use it to show the user a warning with options to skip or stop when loading sample material.
The issue may be history with the next version of Logic and OSX when everything goes 64 bit. But until then it would be nice to warn users about the virtual memory thing. As it is I see it as a bad bug in Logic. Just the fact that it is so easily possible to run it into a crash just by loading stuff - and it is not immediately apparent what caused it.

I wanted to run an extensive orchestration and make use of my 14GB RAM, so I was not happy with that. My solution now is that I run standalone instances of PLAY, connected them via IAC and JackAudio to Logic. Now it works. First I tried SoundFlower and it was unstable and pretty frustrating. But JackAudio hasn't given me trouble yet though it is not very user-friendly. I can use 14GB RAM and have no crash. Not even slowing down of the GUI.
Right now I have created a template with 11 EWQLSO PLAY standalone instances, 1 Gypsy standalone PLAY and 3 VSL instances (within Ensemble2). I still could add some more if I wanted.

If someone wants to know how to set up the IAC and JackAudio, I posted a tutorial on the EW forum (http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/show ... hp?t=18201)


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