# Logic Users - how do you overwrite CC MIDI data?



## stonzthro (Aug 18, 2015)

Is there any way to overwrite MIDI CC automation in Logic? I've been doing this for 20+ years and lately this particular issue has really started to bother me - re-editing MIDI CC by hand. This isn't 1985 - there must be a way around this.

This happens all the time:








Thanks!


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## jacobfatoorechi (Aug 18, 2015)

I would love to hear a quicker solution for this. It feels like there should simply be a setting to overwrite while recording. 

Currently, the best I have is click the region: open the "Event" list using a keyboard shortcut: select all MIDI CC info (you can set it to show only MIDI CC and do a "select all") then delete. Optionally you can sort by CC # and delete all of a specific CC value.

That's: click region>"Ctrl+Command+E" keys>show only midi button>"ctrl+a" keys>"delete" key

It still seems excessive to me...


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## samphony (Aug 18, 2015)

Another way would be to create new track with same instrument/ create track for selected region 
Use one track for note data and the other track for CC data.


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## jacobfatoorechi (Aug 18, 2015)

samphony said:


> Another way would be to create new track with same instrument/ create track for selected region
> Use one track for note data and the other track for CC data.



Yea, if you perform your CC rides separate of your note performance this is a great alternative. 

My problem is I like performing the mod wheel as I go and on occasion I need to replace the data I previously recorded. My original take will have some midi data that will need deleting. You'd think you'd be able to right click the region and delete midi events all at once.


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## stonzthro (Aug 18, 2015)

@symphony - I've actually thought about that, but I have a huge template (1,000+ tracks) and that would effectively triple (one for each Dyn/Expr/Vol, etc...) my current track count - not really an option. I was hoping there would be some way to overwrite MIDI CCs, - I would probably switch DAWs for this feature!

Also, I often write more than one MIDI CC at a time, so it would put me back in the same boat...


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## samphony (Aug 19, 2015)

Maybe a scripter plugin that takes care to reroute cc data to real track/region automation would be a solution? That way one could even use motorized fader boards like the artist series or lemur template to have bi directional feedback!


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## Simon Ravn (Aug 19, 2015)

Hm never thought about that - if I need to do a re-take, I just quickly select (lasso) all the points and delete them, then re-record.


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## jacobfatoorechi (Aug 19, 2015)

Simon Ravn said:


> Hm never thought about that - if I need to do a re-take, I just quickly select (lasso) all the points and delete them, then re-record.


Yea that's my default habit as well... Works well enough when you're working with one CC at a time, but once you start riding two or more (CC1 and CC11 for instance) that's twice the lassoing. I find the lasso a little cumbersome in my set up as it is. Hence deleting all the CC data at once from the event list. 

Going the event list route would actually be a great solution for me if using some kind of batch command / macro program to assign the whole process to a key command. Havn't used one of those yet though.


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## mc_deli (Aug 19, 2015)

Step editor?


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## samphony (Aug 20, 2015)

stonzthro said:


> @symphony - I've actually thought about that, but I have a huge template (1,000+ tracks) and that would effectively triple (one for each Dyn/Expr/Vol, etc...) my current track count - not really an option. I was hoping there would be some way to overwrite MIDI CCs, - I would probably switch DAWs for this feature!
> 
> Also, I often write more than one MIDI CC at a time, so it would put me back in the same boat...



I know I do write multiple CC data as well. Since Logic 10.1 I work with region based automation in Tracks view (former arrangement view) because that is the only way to see multiple CC and automation parameters at once.
To delete certain cc parameters like cc11 or cc01 I have the step editor on a second screen or on the lower third, select the region and in the step editor select the lanes where I want to delete the parameter. Hit delete and it gets reflected in the tracks view.


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## EastWest Lurker (Aug 20, 2015)

And since cc11 is not in the Step Editor's default set.....
https://ask.audio/articles/creating-the-step-editors-missing-expression-lane-in-logic-pro-x


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## mc_deli (Aug 20, 2015)

Yes. Jay has this on the nose. Custom Step Editor Lane Set. Don't leave home without one.


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## stonzthro (Sep 15, 2015)

samphony said:


> I know I do write multiple CC data as well. Since Logic 10.1 I work with region based automation in Tracks view (former arrangement view) because that is the only way to see multiple CC and automation parameters at once.
> To delete certain cc parameters like cc11 or cc01 I have the step editor on a second screen or on the lower third, select the region and in the step editor select the lanes where I want to delete the parameter. Hit delete and it gets reflected in the tracks view.



Is there a way to play in the MIDI CC data in MIDI Draw? It only seems to see what I pencil in, which is kind of lame but supports the use of Step Editor.

I would LOVE to be able to use key commands to show different MIDI Draw parameters (MIDI CCs), and be able to write (and overwrite) on a single track, in the Arrange window.

(I would also love to have step editor abilities in the Arrange, but that's a different thread completely)

That said, thanks for the replies thus far - I will start using Step Editor for that purpose.


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 15, 2015)

I'm not at my computer right now, so forgive if I use some incorrect terms. I typically delete the CC data I don't like anymore, change MIDI mode from Read to Latch, and Record over the section, performing in only the mod wheel (or whatever), this makes a new MIDI track region with only CC info on top of the old region with only notes/velocities. Then I copy the info I just wrote, delete the new region, and paste the CC info into the MIDI Draw area on my old region. Don't forget to change MIDI mode from Latch back to Read.

It's about three steps more complicated than it would be if Latch would record MIDI CC info on playback like it's supposed to, without having to hit Record.


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## samphony (Sep 15, 2015)

jacobthestupendous said:


> I'm not at my computer right now, so forgive if I use some incorrect terms. I typically delete the CC data I don't like anymore, change MIDI mode from Read to Latch, and Record over the section, performing in only the mod wheel (or whatever), this makes a new MIDI track region with only CC info on top of the old region with only notes/velocities. Then I copy the info I just wrote, delete the new region, and paste the CC info into the MIDI Draw area on my old region. Don't forget to change MIDI mode from Latch back to Read.
> 
> It's about three steps more complicated than it would be if Latch would record MIDI CC info on playback like it's supposed to, without having to hit Record.


Why don't you just set the non cycle midi recording mode to merge in 10.2?


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## jacobthestupendous (Sep 15, 2015)

samphony said:


> Why don't you just


Because I'm apparently less clever than you.


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## stonzthro (Sep 15, 2015)

Thanks everyone, you've helped solve one of my main questions! I was able to create a key command for MIDI CCs 1, 11, and 7 and also velocity (some may have already been assigned - can't remember). Now, I can switch through what the region is showing in the Arrange window, and then record right over it, w/o needing to view the Step Editor unless I want to see all the controllers at the same time. Of course I still need to edit some nodes that don't coincide with a previous take, but this is a step closer to what I was hoping for!


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## Garry (Jun 28, 2019)

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I'm also having this problem - 4 years later!!!

If I play the automation in, and then hit 'capture record' it doesn't overwrite the existing data, it seems to append the new data, as shown below in the first few bars. This happens whether or not I have the track set to 'read', 'touch', 'latch' or 'write'. Also happens if I hit record first (rather than capture record afterwards). 

What is the standard way to overwrite, rather than append midi CC data?


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## Garry (Jun 28, 2019)

So, the only way I can find to do it is delete the existing CC data, and then re-record it - is that the correct/best way to do it? If so, I use the step editor, click on the lane I want and hit delete - is this also the correct/most efficient approach?


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## Saxer (Jun 28, 2019)

Different methods:

- In piano roll alt-double-click beside the CC curve selects the complete curve of that region - then delete.
- In the event list: select a single CC and "select similar" (by key command) - then delete.
- Using a separate track with same instrument to record CCs independent from the notes.
- Selecting all notes and "copy". Delete everything and "paste notes at original position". This cleans up all CCs and pitch bends... sometimes useful when random CCs from accidental fader movement was recorded.
- Make a Midi Transform set for deleting CC1 events and give it a key command. Probably the fastest way. Transformer sets are part of the song but can be imported via "Import Project Settings". Should be in the template.


There are probably more methods (like using Marquee tool etc) but that's what I do.


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## Garry (Jun 29, 2019)

Saxer said:


> Different methods:
> 
> - In piano roll alt-double-click beside the CC curve selects the complete curve of that region - then delete.
> - In the event list: select a single CC and "select similar" (by key command) - then delete.
> ...


Thanks Saxer - I set up key commands for deleting CC1 events in a midi transform set, which is what stronzthro was originally referring to in his message also, but I hadn't understood it. I get it now, and have the key commands linked to my nanokontrol, so it's very accessible.

This works nicely, but I'm still a bit surprised you can't just turn on 'Touch', and overwrite CC data - you have to use one of the methods you mentioned above to delete the CC data first, and then re-record it. Ah well, I guess there must be a reason for it. 

Thanks for laying out the options so clearly.


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## Saxer (Jun 29, 2019)

Garry said:


> This works nicely, but I'm still a bit surprised you can't just turn on 'Touch', and overwrite CC data - you have to use one of the methods you mentioned above to delete the CC data first, and then re-record it. Ah well, I guess there must be a reason for it.


It's because this are different kind of data.

CC data are, like notes, recorded midi events and show up in the midi editors.

Automation is an internal data format that has it's own layer "behind the music". The resolution is higher than midi. It has it's own way of recording and overwriting. You can control it by midi controllers if they are connected as control surfaces.

Mainly it's like that: Midi data do the music stuff. Automation data move knobs and faders inside the DAW. (It's not always the case but it's the general way of dealing with it.)


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## Garry (Jun 29, 2019)

Saxer said:


> It's because this are different kind of data.
> 
> CC data are, like notes, recorded midi events and show up in the midi editors.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I understand the difference, but differences in resolution/layer doesn't automatically mean one can be overwritten and one can't. I'm still not sure why automation cannot be overwritten and must first be deleted, but no matter - it can't, so I'll just delete and get on with it!!  Thanks again for your help.


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## Saxer (Jun 29, 2019)

Because recording Midi CCs isn't really automation. It's part of the music performance. If "Touch" would override midi the notes would be erased too because both are midi events.
It would be technical possible but the main reason is that the whole CC driving madness for orchestral instruments simply wasn't invented when automation was implemented in DAWs. Playing orchestral instruments using mod wheel CC data has been a workaround that meanwhile established to a de facto standard. DAWs are not prepared for that. And actually 95% of all DAW users never heard of CC curves for orchestral instruments. It's vi-nerd stuff.


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## Garry (Jun 29, 2019)

ok  But while we're on the topic, can I trouble you to help me with my other cc issue: 

When recording CC in the piano roll, the CC info is continuous, but when I use the step editor it isn't (see below). The signal drop out is when there is no movement of the fader. Ok, so that means no data being written at that point, hence the 'drop out' - but this isn't a good way to represent the CC level, since if my fader is at 50, but not moving, I don't want to see it at 0, and this seems to be possible since that's exactly how it's represented in the piano roll. This seems to relate to your point above, about the nature of CC data, but I've seen other people's step editor images, and they look continuous, not discrete like mine, and again, the piano roll is also represented continuously, so I think I must have some setting wrong.

Does the step editor in the screenshot look odd to you, and if so, is there any way to make it continuous, like in the piano roll?


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## Saxer (Jun 29, 2019)

No way. The step editor shows midi events as single events. It's the 'old' way of thinking about CC data. The curve display in the piano roll was added later (somewhen between Logic 7 and 9).
In Reapers piano roll the CC events still look like in Logics step editor. For Reaper some guys added an additional user scripting for continuous display but that's not possible in Logic.


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## Garry (Jun 29, 2019)

Hmm... that makes the step editor a lot less useful, though no? In the areas where there is apparent 'drop out', you don't know if the value was zero, or just the same as the preceding value. That will be obvious in some cases, and not in others. Also, it makes it ugly and unintuitive.

Again, ah well, it is what it is... perhaps addressed in a future update. It will probably make me ignore the step editor lanes, and just use the arrange window to see multiple CCs. There though, I wish there was an option to only see the automation for the selected track (toggled with see all track automation). It's visually very messy when you show automation, but have to see if for every track, rather than just the selected track (and no way around this either, I guess?  ). There's times when you want to see all track automation, and others when you want to focus on multiple lanes of single track.


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## Vik (Jun 29, 2019)

Logic clearly needs improvement in this area, which has been discussed among VI users for years, eg. here.


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## Garry (Jun 29, 2019)

Vik said:


> Logic clearly needs improvement in this area, which has been discussed among VI users for years, eg. here.


Thanks Vik. Good to know it’s not just me struggling with this, at least I know I’m not just missing something obvious. 

I’m happy to await this being addressed in a future update. The way I have it now, on the button next to each fader on my nanokontol is the learned key command to delete the data from the same cc as that fader. That works well, as I don’t need to remember any key commands. That’ll suffice for now until Logic Pro 11


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## Ashermusic (Jun 29, 2019)

Saxer said:


> No way. The step editor shows midi events as single events. It's the 'old' way of thinking about CC data. The curve display in the piano roll was added later (somewhen between Logic 7 and 9).
> In Reapers piano roll the CC events still look like in Logics step editor. For Reaper some guys added an additional user scripting for continuous display but that's not possible in Logic.



A MIDI _event_ IS a single event, be it a note, a mod wheel step, etc. it just is. Now I have no problem with having it displayed differently if people want, but let's not redefine it.


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## charlieclouser (Jun 29, 2019)

Two things: 

- The Step Editor is showing an accurate representation of the CC data in the track. In the screenshots Garry posted a couple posts above, the "gaps" in the Step Editor display are an accurate representation - they correspond to the flat / straight lines in the CC lane in the Piano Roll display, during which no changes of CC value are present. When there is a chunk of time in which there are no CC events, and therefore no change in CC value, the Piano Roll displays a flat line while the Step Editor displays a "gap". This is correct, accurate, and by design... because:

- The Step Editor is intended to mimic a step sequencer, those old hardware devices where you have a row of 16 knobs that represent a value for each 16th note (or whatever), and as the sequence plays you jump instantaneously from one value to the next at regular intervals. Most of the time you'd use the Step Editor to draw and edit instantaneous CC values that happen at these regular, rhythmic intervals. Try wiping the CC data from it, then draw in events with the Quantize parameter at the left of the Step Editor set to 16th notes, and you'll see a visual simulation of a step sequencer much like you'd find in a software modular or a synth like Avenger or many others. That's what it's intended for, but Logic makes it available as an editing window for more continuous, fluid CC events that have been recorded from knobs or drawn elsewhere with the mouse. It's just a different way of visualizing and editing the same data, and is a fantastic feature when used for "step sequencing" CC events.


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## Garry (Jun 29, 2019)

Yes, I get that it's accurate, it's just not useful, or at least not in the sense that I wanted to use it! (don't worry Apple, you don't owe me that!  ).

I don't step-sequence CC events, but tend to use a discontinuous approach, so I was questioning whether there was a way around it when there is no change in the CC value. It seems like from the feedback that there is not, but check out the image below, in which a YouTuber is demonstrating the use of the Step Editor: at around bar 4.5 to 5.5, you can see that the values are steady on the expression lane, and yet there is no drop out, which made we wonder whether there is a setting that can switch off the 'no value change = no value shown', but I think... probably not! (but then how DOES he do it?!!). Probably there is a small change in those values that are difficult to see, and it's just very, very subtley, and presumably that's the way to do it if you want to use a fader for continuous CC values and the step editor - ya gotta keep movin'!


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## charlieclouser (Jun 29, 2019)

Without seeing the Event List for the tracks in the screenshots above, I can't say for sure - but if the Step Editor is showing "continuous" events even though the value isn't changing from one event to the next, I'd say it is likely that there's a stream of identical-value CC events in that track from bars 4.5-5.5. That's entirely possible, and allowed, and Logic won't delete redundant or repeating events unless you tell it to. 

If you draw events right into the Step Editor, instead of just viewing events recorded via MIDI or drawn elsewhere, you can easily replicate what's shown in the screenshots above. I suspect that's what's going on there - but then you'd wind up with a little unnecessary data in your track.


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