# Peace, but.



## NYC Composer (Apr 6, 2015)

I believe in peace. I believe in trying to find peaceful solutions to problems between nations, religions, cultures. I believe in diplomacy and negotiation. That said, I've never thought of myself as a pacifist. I don't, for example, subscribe to the philosophy of the Quakers, or the Jains. I don't believe in peace at any price.

Tonight's headlines on BBC news- large mass graves at Tikrit full of executed Iraqi soldiers. Palestinians being theatened by ISIS in Damascus. More internal terrorists in the U.S. trying to start personal initiatives like the Boston bombers.

Recent videos from ISIS of the execution of the Jordanian pilot, burned alive. Gleeful videos of beheadings. Killings of kidnapped young female aid workers.

Boko Haram killing hundreds, thousands to end Western or Christian education. Murdering innocents.

I don't think this is negotiable. I don't think there's a peace process to be had. Whatever mistakes made by the West really don't matter now. There's a time to analyze and recognize the causes for things. There are opportunities to talk about culpability and forward looking solutions. I think we've passed that time, and these bloody band of pirates are going to have to be killed. Their ideology no longer matters- only their actions do.

The end game here is impossible to see, but in some ways, I think Obama has played it correctly. There needs to be a REAL coalition now, not the b.s. "Coalition of the Willing " with the U.S., England and three guys from Togo. France is in. Germany is reluctantly supplying arms. Even Denmark sent a few fighter planes, but the more salient point: Jordan is in. Egypt is in. Saudi Arabia has finally become alarned enough to be in.

There is nothing but blood in this conflict, but it's being spilled anyway, daily. There is evil here, and it will have to be eradicated. Its not a Hitler moment because it doesn't have the scale, nevertheless it is going to be necessary for the world to come together in what ways it can and put this thing down.

I welcome everyone's views, please disagree with me if you do, but an equal plea for civility. Thank you.


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 7, 2015)

To quote Peter Harling http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/about/staff/field/mena/harling-peter.aspx



> The future looks bright for IS if the main actors continue to exploit its presence to avoid responsibility for their own failings. Shia Islamists, secular elites and western governments are redefining their relations on the basis of a sort of holy war that is becoming an end in itself.



http://mondediplo.com/2014/09/04islamicstate

I also echo Peters view when he stated that:



> What is most worrying perhaps is that IS has become a means of concealing a seemingly universal political vacuum. Everyone who hated Bush’s “war on terror” — seeing it either as inadvertently pouring oil on the flames, or as an aberrant throwback to the logic of imperialism — is now happily singing from that very hymn sheet, because it saves them having to think about the real challenges the region poses.


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## chimuelo (Apr 7, 2015)

Whenever an occupying force removes the dominant regime they must stay for years to ensure a transitional period can occur.
Russia, Britain, France and the USA had to quell several similar uprisings all over Europe and Asia. Russia chose a more violent form of control, the West a more peaceful transition, but the West succeeded since prosperity was attainable.

The messengers of God in Iran and the Kings of the Gulf had better provide opportunity to the region and in a hurry.
I think they now know that it's their turn to protect their interests.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

chimuelo @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> Whenever an occupying force removes the dominant regime they must stay for years to ensure a transitional period can occur.
> Russia, Britain, France and the USA had to quell several similar uprisings all over Europe and Asia. Russia chose a more violent form of control, the West a more peaceful transition, but the West succeeded since prosperity was attainable.
> 
> The messengers of God in Iran and the Kings of the Gulf had better provide opportunity to the region and in a hurry.
> I think they now know that it's their turn to protect their interests.



Don't you think it's a little late to "provide opportunity"? Pirates who murder, rape, pillage and steal as they commandeer weaponry- they provide a lot of their own opportunity-in what could be defined as an imperialistic way.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

G.R.- do you think the reporting of mass graves containing Iraqi soldiers is exploitation by the West to excuse its own failings? Again, this gets into the analytical about the failings of the past, perhaps the present as well, but doesn't have much to say about a way forward. The article says, essentially: "this is how we got here." My answer to that is "alright, that's probably so, but now we're HERE." What's your thought on a path forward?

I read the whole article, but didn't check the date. Some of it seems dated to me. If ISIS doesn't gave a sort of half baked imperialistic ideological agenda, I wonder why they advertise on social media in the way they do.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

"Whenever an occupying force removes the dominant regime they must stay for years to ensure a transitional period can occur." - Nicolo Machiavelli

Or was it Chim?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

Larry, what are you really saying? That we should forget that our foreign policy mistakes - not a strong enough word - helped create this mess so that we repeat them next time?

"I told you" isn't a way forward, but it's still true. And you hear foreign policy wonks predicting decades of war in the Middle East.

Also, are you sure you can't just negotiate with a bunch of bloodthirsty tribesmen with guns who cut people's heads off? They're probably perfectly reasonable, fun-loving guys after hours when you have a beer with them.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> Larry, what are you really saying? That we should forget that our foreign policy mistakes - not a strong enough word - helped create this mess so that we repeat them next time?
> 
> "I told you" isn't a way forward, but it's still true. And you hear foreign policy wonks predicting decades of war in the Middle East.
> 
> Also, are you sure you can't just negotiate with a bunch of bloodthirsty tribesmen with guns who cut people's heads off? They're probably perfectly reasonable, fun-loving guys after hours when you have a beer with them.



No Nick-I'm saying we can't be paralyzed by them. Hopefully we can be more thoughtful (probably a forlorn hope), but when our country becomes paralyzed by our missteps as happened to us in Rwanda with Warren Christopher urging Clinton not to get involved, we get large scale massacres and many many refugees. That's what's happening now in various ways. Bill still says publicly that it was his biggest mistake in office. Our present ambassador to the U.N. wrote a passionate book about it and about the genesis of the word "genocide", called "A Problem from Hell". I strongly recommend it.

To repeat, "what I'm really saying" is that action is required. I think it's desperately necessary that any action taken be done by a true coalition of nations, especially ones from the region. I'm also saying that "I told you so" is very precisely not a path forward.

I'll go a step further. I'm coming around to Chim's point of view that we probably shouldn't have left Iraq regardless of the bs about the forces agreement. We had dictated to the Iraqi government up to that point- we stopped because it was politically expedient to do so. I agreed at the time. Now I think we left a vacuum that got filled by and emboldened some really bad actors.

All that said, non of that matters either. Forward is the only direction, and what we do now matters a great deal.


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## impressions (Apr 7, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> To repeat, "what I'm really saying" is that action is required. I think it's desperately necessary that any action taken be done by a true coalition of nations, especially ones from the region.



what is that action? like what?


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

impressions @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Apr 07 said:
> 
> 
> > To repeat, "what I'm really saying" is that action is required. I think it's desperately necessary that any action taken be done by a true coalition of nations, especially ones from the region.
> ...



I think it's pretty obvious that there will have to be military action. I'm not a military strategist nor do I see a viable end game, but along with expressing my opinion here, I'm interested in what others think. Do you think there needs to be action taken, military or otherwise?


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## impressions (Apr 7, 2015)

I have a lot to say on the subject, but I'm not sure my opinion is that welcome here.

but regarding what action, do you think a military action against a cross continent organization is effective? or doable? there are cells, and dormant cells of ISIS, spread throughout the world, including the west world. these conjure up and continuously multiply just by the ideal of pursuing their fanatical goal. it is an idea which infects those who wink in that direction or too afraid to act against it. which means, in my opinion, that can't be fought by physical weapons.
just look at their most effective weapon, its their videos. terror organization which uses films, perhaps even influenced by reality TV, to create the most horrific effect, fear. 

so, if an action is required against it, it would have to address that. the idea, to be the most effective. if you kill that, you kill them.

how would you go about doing that? educating everyone who is under their radar, and give them the physical power to actually resist them. then, film it and spread it as a victory against ISIS. it will weaken its fear for sure, and create more resistance to it.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

Your opinions are welcome here, and it so happens that I agree with them.

Unfortunately the underlying problem is economic: desperate societies. That's a lot more complicated to improve, and it takes a long time.


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## JonFairhurst (Apr 7, 2015)

The most important statement in the conversation is, "...a true coalition of nations, especially ones from the region."

In fact, it also needs to be a coalition of religious and social leaders in the region. The populace needs to feel that terrorism is the problem, not the solution.

Blunt military action from an external power should not be used. Our approach should not fuel an east-west conflict or create yet more power vacancies. We need transformation, not just destruction.


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## José Herring (Apr 7, 2015)

It's tough for good people like yourselves to conceive that there are truly evil men. 

Sometimes these evil men form groups and convince other weak minded individuals to follow them.

The only solution to ISIS is to obliterate their leadership. It's unfortunate that things have to come to that. But there is no other way. These men aren't going to stop doing evil on their own. They can't help it. 

Just like the only way to stop Nazi Germany was to obliterate it off the face of the Earth. Germany survived but the Nazi's never recovered. 

ISIS is no different only a lot weaker and a lot easier to wipe out, if we only had the guts. 

Two part solution. Help Iraq stabilize and rebuild after the GWB onslaught and wipe ISIS off the map wherever they are.

Obama is punting at this point. Making the next president deal with the reality that Iraq can't do it on their own and that the US will need to send in at least 100,000 ground troops to rout out ISIS.


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## JonFairhurst (Apr 7, 2015)

I agree, Jose, that this isn't a Peace and Reconciliation situation. The transformation includes bringing swift, firm, local justice to the terrorist leaders. But that's just one element of a transformation. If we could flick a switch and kill all of the IS leaders while making no other changes, it would be a "same as the old boss" situation. We need the whole idea of IS to be reviled - and the leaders "dis-empowered".


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## José Herring (Apr 7, 2015)

JonFairhurst @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> I agree, Jose, that this isn't a Peace and Reconciliation situation. The transformation includes bringing swift, firm, local justice to the terrorist leaders. But that's just one element of a transformation. If we could flick a switch and kill all of the IS leaders while making no other changes, it would be a "same as the old boss" situation. We need the whole idea of IS to be reviled - and the leaders "dis-empowered".



Yes we do. We absolutely need the real Muslim leaders to stop being sympathizers and speak out loudly and boldly against this type of extremist.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

What do you suggest Obama do, Jose? I don't agree that he's punting, I think the problem is that there's no short-term solution.

And as I've posted before, I wouldn't send my daughter to fight this war. Would you send your son?


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## chimuelo (Apr 7, 2015)

Larry folks are always going to kill each other.
God even wiped out the entire Middle East as he knew back then it was a giant shithole.
Look where that got him...?

But it is sad and confusing. We killed the guy who killed more Arabs than any Army in history, and for doing this we were banished from the UN, condemned by the elites who never do jack shit anyways, but now we are equally evil for not going back in to kill more folks...?

Let Israel and Gulf State Arabs handle this one.

Besides having Liberals in charge of a war is just bad news. 
There would be lawyers mirandizing captured troops, Warren and Clinton wanting an girl Brigade, Transexual Restrooms built, rescue operations for trapped puppies and kittens in Muslim Animal Shelters, etc.

No Thanks.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> What do you suggest Obama do, Jose? I don't agree that he's punting, I think the problem is that there's no short-term solution.
> 
> And as I've posted before, I wouldn't send my daughter to fight this war. Would you send your son?



Ummm.

As my son recently returned from Afghanistan....

I didn't send him there. It was his choice, and though he sees through a lot of the bs, he believes America should live up to its commitments. Not a widely held view.


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## José Herring (Apr 7, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> What do you suggest Obama do, Jose? I don't agree that he's punting, I think the problem is that there's no short-term solution.
> 
> And as I've posted before, I wouldn't send my daughter to fight this war. Would you send your son?



Hell no!

But, there are a lot of people that would just volunteer. This kind of evil only spreads like an infection. He's punting because he doesn't want to commit troops. Unfortunately Obama's greatest strength is his utter weakness. He cares about people.

But, there's no avoiding that fact. The longer he waits the worse it is going to get. Because now, they can diversify like Al Qaeda and we will have to fight them through several countries and that number is growing.


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## chimuelo (Apr 7, 2015)

Let's assume the media is full of shit and is paid to say what their corporate advertisers and owners tell them to.

The mere fact they are silent and aiding and abetting the current administration in a war of disinformation doesn't mean we are not engaged in a covert way.

Unless you want to go over there and start shooting guys in towels and robes with black flags take a chill pill.

More people were killed in the USA today by car accidents than over there in a week probably.

The disinformation is so bad we have folks over here in towels and robes wanting to go to the Middle East and fight, or turn around and kill folks here.

Ever been to Philly...?

Get on the Market Street train at 0600 and try and block out the dozens of cassettes playing morning prayers.
That was in 1999 and I thought I was in the Sudan...

I was by myself and maybe 2 other people, but every stop into town 20 or 30 more people got on, my eyes were twitching after 4 stops and I couldn't hardly move....

Hopefully we don't elect a white guy again, as I think these locals were OK as long as Obama was in office, no telling what these Isalamic Liberals will do if the GOP guys win.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 7, 2015)

It isn't disinformation when:

1. We see them do it.

2. They take credit for it and vow to do it again.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

chimuelo @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> Let's assume the media is full of [email protected]#t and is paid to say what their corporate advertisers and owners tell them to.
> 
> The mere fact they are silent and aiding and abetting the current administration in a war of disinformation doesn't mean we are not engaged in a covert way.
> 
> ...



My son went to Temple, and I don't remember any exhumations of 170,000 from mass graves at the time.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

Jay, the disinformation is from showing the same loops over and over and nothing else for hours on end. 

I'm not saying these guys don't need to be defeated militarily - probably over and over, because you can't just get rid of them. What I disagree with is the people who find it so obvious that *we* need to rush in and do that.

I also find the idea that this wouldn't have happened if we'd kept a large force in Iraq highly dubious at best. There's no evidence that's true, and it's certainly not a slam dunk.

This is not a simple problem, there are no good answers, and I believe it's going to last a very long time.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

chimuelo @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> Larry folks are always going to kill each other.
> God even wiped out the entire Middle East as he knew back then it was a giant shithole.
> Look where that got him...?
> 
> ...



Yep, Bush and Cheney really knew how to run a war. That Paul Bremer was a wonderful Viceroy. Don Rumsfeld? Maybe the worst Secretary of Defense in history?

Go with the Republicans for war. Got it.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> Jay, the disinformation is from showing the same loops over and over and nothing else for hours on end.
> 
> I'm not saying these guys don't need to be defeated militarily - probably over and over, because you can't just get rid of them. What I disagree with is the people who find it so obvious that *we* need to rush in and do that.
> 
> ...



As I stated and was promptly ignored except by Jon Fairhurst, "we" needs to be a very large tent.


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## chimuelo (Apr 7, 2015)

That's cause Saddam was never in Philly NYC.

Google/NSA owners are in the White House every week, I wonder if they are discussing the unconstitutionality of shutting down these chat rooms or silencing the videos. Well they are funding elections, that much we know, right now they are funding Rahm Emanuel who wasn't even a legal resident when he won the last election. So I'd say obeying the law isn't one of their concerns.

This leads one to believe that they are regulating the war on ISIS. Why not regulations are bank rolling elections, wealthy redistributors are experts at regulating.

The war on poverty, the war on drugs, the war on women, the wars everywhere.

50 Trillion dollars on the war on poverty last time I checked.
Math isn't my favorite subject so I use a calculator.
It tells me that the 1.2 trillion just in 2011 would have been 990,000 USD per recipient of all of the social programs combined. I guess they just need more money. I would love to live in a great society neighborhood for 900 large a year. I'd build my own tunnels out just to claim residence.

Why on Earth would I believe anything these folks tell me, or why would I buy into the media that they circulate billions through during every election..?

IMHO Fox News, and MSNBC are nothing more than Porn for old folks.
The NYTimes is owned by buddies from south of the border, where regulating the war on drugs pays big bucks.

This isn't even new news, but the CIA actually had to go into great society neighborhoods in LA and apologize for distributing tons of crack cocaine.
Are they now good guys, who no longer involve themselves in such activities...?

FWIW I am glad we have the wealthiest people running our Government and regulating everything to maintain the status quo. Their success is mine.

But I sure as hell don't have to believe them.
As a child I learned Santa Claus, Paul Bunyon, John Wayne and the tooth fairy don't exist.

So I sure as hell don't believe these people spent millions just to help us miserable schmucks.

And if ISIS is as bad as they say where the hell is the UN....?
We know they don't like black folks, Rwanda proved that, but Arabs got lots of Oil so they are useful, where is the good guys in Blue Berets,....?

Wait I know, preparing another Global Warming Summit for the war on CO2 which is surely going to cost trillions. We can thank them when a Lava flow engulfs the city they swore to save by regulating air...


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## chimuelo (Apr 7, 2015)

But Larry, being a failure in DC is a success. Haliburton got fat, as did all of the private armies, even Chertoff has a piece of every XRay machine in the world now.
I'd say they were a smashing success.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

chimuelo @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> But Larry, being a failure in DC is a success. Haliburton got fat, as did all of the private armies, even Chertoff has a piece of every XRay machine in the world now.
> I'd say they were a smashing success.



For their agenda? Yes.

I don't want to get too OT here, but re war on women-did you ever have a wife or female friend in the corporate world in the 80s and 90's? My wife went through it all. She was better than 95% of the assholes who were promoted over her. At one point, she found out she made less money than some male counterparts. She was sexually harassed. I saw it- in person, in emails, at parties. I had to hold myself back from decking some guys, and btw- this was in telecommunications, which has traditionally been one of the more diverse industries.

Let me put it this way-if you don't know, you don't know.


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## chimuelo (Apr 7, 2015)

Sure do remember and the cause was addressed, the lawsuits and legislation made it so women are much better off than they were.

There's also a downside.

I had actually planned on being active in the trade unions until I was 65 years old at least.
We were once groomed for those gravy jobs like guarding the gate, carrying water to the floors, flagging traffic.
But then the war on women allowed them to join our Unions, but they do no do concrete or lay out Steel or climb the Beams without a safety net under them, we do.
They got to take all of the gravy gigs that let us have a long 10-15 year pension spike as we are not very productive in concrete once we hit 50 years old.

Even more hilarious on the "war on women" is the Local I belonged to in Philly was a Muslim Labor Union, no women.....period.
Where was Hillary, or Eric Holder or even Al Sharpton.

I was the only white guy there, they knew I was from Vegas, figured I was there until trial like so many Mafia guys do in Philly when they get busted. Looks better to show up employed after selling a fed 60 keys of meth....

I entertained my muslim brothas when they visited in AC or Vegas as once they got to know me, I even went into the Badlands (great society part of Philly) and attended the monthly meetings, was treated respectfully.
So there again a brown skinned white racist POV from the false "Race War" and "War On Women", drugs, poverty, etal...

Alright I wasn't going to do this, but they called me Viva....aka the Elvis movie I suppose. And I was told to come up with a rap or I couldn't hang in the trailer for lunch with the BA, Steward and GFs.

So here we go............

Straight out Nevada, 
a mutha' Ph...er called Viva,
I f..k the bitches in the band called Diva,
When Im called on,
I got a sawed off.
I pull the trigger mutha ph....rs will be hauled off...
You too boy if you f..k with me, 
the Police are gonna have to come and git me,
Take my hoes it doesn't matter as o Viva climbs the ladder,
and my roll will just get fatter....tih tih tih tih tih...............straight out Nevada....

Boov-Boov tssh...Boov-Boov tsss.......


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

> Math isn't my favorite subject so I use a calculator.
> It tells me that the 1.2 trillion just in 2011 would have been 990,000 USD per recipient of all of the social programs combined.



You really believe that? A million dollars per recipient of "social programs" in 2011?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

> Rahm Emanuel who wasn't even a legal resident when he won the last election



Without saying he's good or bad (I think both), do you really believe that? He works as White House Chief of Staff for 1-1/2 years and he should lose his home residency?

By all accounts he didn't even really want the gig, because he didn't want to leave his children! But Obama wanted him, so he relented.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

> "we" needs to be a very large tent.



And one that I don't want to be in, any more than I want to be in the freaking Republican "large tent" (the only other way I've heard that expression used).


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## Dave Connor (Apr 7, 2015)

One get's hopeful when Jordan stands up and says they will fight. Then it tapers off and you don't hear of major ground offenses and the like. Then you get hopeful again when Saudia Arabia rises up against the atrocities and Iranian influence in Yemen with air power and then hopefully ground action. Again it just seems to evaporate. Turkey stands by and does nothing while Syrian towns are assaulted by ISIS.

The Obama doctrine is to in fact, encourage these people to rise up and clean up their own back yards. I was starting to think it was going to work and we would all be thrilled if it did. But our two hundred year old democracy based upon individual rights, religious freedom and tolerance just doesn't engender ancient tribal hatreds where slaughtering your enemy or letting him be slaughtered is a type of norm. So it's incomprehensible to us what's going on over there. Our role in both world wars was to step in and pull ancient enemies apart at the cost of American blood and treasure. We didn't want to get involved in those fights and we don't want to get into this mess. But as people like Larry are saying, how much butchery and bloodshed is going to go on? There is full blown genocide going on over there and nobody is doing anything about it. Very little anyway. A volunteer US army? I honestly don't know but the U.S. role of watching over the world seems to be because of the vacuum that occurs when we don't.

EDIT: I suppose it could be argued that our own Civil War was a colossal bloodletting along similar lines. It was in fact a cultural war. But it was soldiers killing soldiers and you don't hear of beheading and children being crucified and so on. Plus we learned and moved on and rewrote law which has largely been obeyed.


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## chimuelo (Apr 7, 2015)

Hey I think Rahm is a great mayor, just pointing out that laws are inconsequential when you got the money and power at that particular time.

Has to be tough trying to clean up another Liberal failure. Thankfully Google helped fund some schools since Liberals taxed the black middle class so badly they left town for the suburbs.

50 schools were shut down. Teachers went on strike for more pay as it's a death wish trying to teach armed gang members selling drugs in the hallway...
And the poor parents that have to send their children there that use to have vouchers or good grades so they could escape the great society into private charter schools.
Very confusing to me, but then again I guess it's better that a black Liberal cut their funding instead of a white racist from the GOP.

The good news is every year tax payers will send in billions more that evaporate into thin air. (Unfunded pensions probably) 
In this way the war on poverty can continue on.

As the war on drugs.

War on women,

And most definitely the war on ISIS. 

"The 30 Year War."

They probably figured Americans weren't going to accept the Global Warming taxes, so a 30 year war, regulated to ensure it's longevity might be worth a shot... 0oD


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> > "we" needs to be a very large tent.
> 
> 
> 
> And one that I don't want to be in, any more than I want to be in the freaking Republican "large tent" (the only other way I've heard that expression used).




Cool. So if there's a pogrom, a genocide, against a large amount of people in the Middle East or elsewhere, you don't want to be "in it"? What's your theory, let them fight their own battles? What if they can't and people are suffering terribly?

Sorry if I offended you with the "large tent" thought. Jeez.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

chimuelo @ Tue Apr 07 said:


> Hey I think Rahm is a great mayor, just pointing out that laws are inconsequential when you got the money and power at that particular time.
> 
> Has to be tough trying to clean up another Liberal failure. Thankfully Google helped fund some schools since Liberals taxed the black middle class so badly they left town for the suburbs.
> 
> ...



Jimmy, I really admire your eloquence, and that's no b.s. My problem with you is that you have plenty of grievances but offer no solutions or theories about moving forward. I'd truly appreciate it if you would divert a small amount of your large brain towards progress instead of irony.


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## chimuelo (Apr 7, 2015)

My way forward is Obama's foreign policy.
It is working brilliantly, I have said this before, and have not changed my opinion at all.
Have all of your staffers and cabinet members saying different things to confuse our allies and adversaries, all while getting Iran into Iraq to kill Sunnis.

My God give Obama some credit. We now have pissed off Israel according to the "news" but yet no mention of how the Saudis and Jordanians have given Israel permission to use their air space, nor how they are allies now after 1000+ years of being enemies.
Even Egypt is buddies with Israel, how is this not a great success story......?

I have no solutions as they are not needed. Obama has isolated Iran.

Obamas plan will take shape when this deal falls apart as the bad cops in the GOP increase sanctions.

Hezbollah and Hamas are broke, Syria crumbles as Russia cannot hope to go in and save their favorite Arab, Turkey would push them into the Med. They have the largest well trained, well equipped Army in NATO. I watched Turkish Jets and the Red Flag games at Nellis. You'd be surprised how many of these "poor" nations have an Air Force trained to land on American Aircraft Carriers.
Hell the best MiG Pilots in the world are Germans.

I am confident in our current policy and confident the bad cops (GOP) and Good Cops (DNC) have all of their ducks in a row.

I really hope young Iranians get the chance to chase their Spinach Chinned leaders back to France.
The Persian culture needs to be restored, and those who worship should keep their traditions alive by respect not fear....


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 7, 2015)

Larry, there are certain Republican dog whistles, and...actually *big* tent is one of them. I just figured I'd point that out, because I'm not a fan of that party and anything that reminds me of them induces discomfort.

As to the substance of what you're asking, well, every situation is different. We definitely should have intervened in Rwanda, because it would have been easy to stop people with machetes. [Rwanda actually wasn't genocide as advertised, it was a collapse due to overpopulation.] Stopping the disaster in former Bosnia/Herzegovina was the right thing to do, from both humanitarian and national interest points of view.

But I just don't think there's much we can do to stop ISIS, or we'd be doing it. There is no "Obama Doctrine" I can see, no crazy ideology behind his foreign policy decisions. Like everything in the Middle East, this is a twisted mess, with no clear line between good/bad, ally/enemy, etc.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Apr 08 said:


> Larry, there are certain Republican dog whistles, and...actually *big* tent is one of them. I just figured I'd point that out, because I'm not a fan of that party and anything that reminds me of them induces discomfort.
> 
> As to the substance of what you're asking, well, every situation is different. We definitely should have intervened in Rwanda, because it would have been easy to stop people with machetes. [Rwanda actually wasn't genocide as advertised, it was a collapse due to overpopulation.] Stopping the disaster in former Bosnia/Herzegovina was the right thing to do, from both humanitarian and national interest points of view.
> 
> But I just don't think there's much we can do to stop ISIS, or we'd be doing it. There is no "Obama Doctrine" I can see, no crazy ideology behind his foreign policy decisions. Like everything in the Middle East, this is a twisted mess, with no clear line between good/bad, ally/enemy, etc.



Nick, please Google "Democrat big tent" and see what you find. The phrase is applicable to both parties, and I continue to refuse to be held to your views of ideological purity.

I also disagree about Rwanda-please check the actual United Nations convention defining genocide. The origin of the word is interesting as well, as it does not have its basis in science, but instead was made up by a fellow named Raphael Lemken, who lost most of his family in the Holocaust and went on a quest. The U.N. has waffled and given ground to "ethnic cleansing", which is apparently not the same thing. Shameful and disgusting, that. My personal hero in the long delayed U.S. acceptance of the Genocide Convention is Senator William Proxmire, a true American hero and patriot.

Just to run the table, I disagree that there is no "Obama Doctrine." If you'll revisit my initial post, you'll see what I think it is. In the same vein, I think there is a great deal "we" can do to stop ISIS. As stated initially, I think we need to kill a whole bunch of them. 
Edit- as to "twisted mess" and no clear lines, on those points we mostly agree.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 8, 2015)

chimuelo @ Wed Apr 08 said:


> My way forward is Obama's foreign policy.
> It is working brilliantly, I have said this before, and have not changed my opinion at all.
> Have all of your staffers and cabinet members saying different things to confuse our allies and adversaries, all while getting Iran into Iraq to kill Sunnis.
> 
> ...



I think parts of this are right, as I said in my initial post. I think Obama diesn't want to get caught in the same endless spiral that ensnared us during Gulf War 2, and believes that a coalition can be formed that includes countries from the region. Still, we've got troops in there, and we'll probably have more. Eventually, this will turn on a ground game and the question will be who's in it.

As much as I'm against unnecessary wars of aggresison (as I believe the Second Gulf War to have been), I don't believe in a Rand Paul style isolationism either. Yes, peope are always dying and it's always sad, but there are deadly brushfires and existential threats to others that I think the world, as opposed to us unilaterally, needs to deal with. ISIS. Boko Haram. Rwanda. Bosnia. Etc.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 8, 2015)

> I also disagree about Rwanda-please check the actual United Nations convention defining genocide.



I'm not sanitizing this, I'm saying the standard story about it being because of Belgian colonialism, etc. isn't really what was going on. Please check "Collapse" by Jared Diamond, a book that everyone should read anyway. He explains exactly what was behind it: overpopulation. Hutus and Tutsis were both killed.

Okay, I found a link:

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/10.html


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 8, 2015)

Okay, I just re-read it. I'm oversimplifying what happened in Rwanda.

"Collapse" is an incredible book. You get an understanding of what's going on that you don't get from the news.



> I conclude that population pressure was one of the important factors behind the Rwandan genocide, that Malthus's worst-case scenario [328] may sometimes be realized, and that Rwanda may be a distressing model of that scenario in operation. Severe problems of overpopulation, environmental impact, and climate change cannot persist indefinitely: sooner or later they are likely to resolve themselves, whether in the manner of Rwanda or in some other manner not of our devising, if we don't succeed in solving them by our own actions. In the case of Rwanda's collapse we can put faces and motives on the unpleasant solution; I would guess that similar motives were operating, without our being able to associate them with faces, in the collapses of Easter Island, Mangareva, and the Maya that I described in Part 2 of this book. Similar motives may operate again in the future, in some other countries that, like Rwanda, fail to solve their underlying problems.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 8, 2015)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Apr 08 said:


> Okay, I just re-read it. I'm oversimplifying what happened in Rwanda.
> 
> "Collapse" is an incredible book. You get an understanding of what's going on that you don't get from the news.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26875506

BBC and most worldwide sources called it genocide and still do. I accept that there were ancillary mitigating factors. However, are you:

1. Suggesting it wasn't, that the underlying causes you cite made it not a genocide?
2. Suggesting we were right not to intervene or bolster UN forces?


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 9, 2015)

As for Rwanada, a few hours ago, France declassified some documents, but not all.

As for IS and the "call for crusade", I would warn against such type of enthusiastic activisim, calling for a true coalition of "the civilized world" and stuff like that is utter none sense in my opinion and serves no one but the merchants of war.

Of course, IS is a bunch of Wahhabi sponsored murderous thugs.

Cut them off their supply lines and give them enough rope! They can not be defeated in Iraq alone, this must happen in Syria at the same time.


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 9, 2015)

on a musical side note: 

http://mondediplo.com/2015/04/17kurdish-music


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## NYC Composer (Apr 9, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Apr 09 said:


> As for Rwanada, a few hours ago, France declassified some documents, but not all.
> 
> As for IS and the "call for crusade", I would warn against such type of enthusiastic activisim, calling for a true coalition of "the civilized world" and stuff like that is utter none sense in my opinion and serves no one but the merchants of war.
> 
> ...



When murderous thugs aggregate and kill, rape and plunder all in their path in particularly obscene and gruesome ways, you think nations shouldn't band together? Who should cut off their supply lines? Indeed, who will?


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 9, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 09 said:


> When murderous thugs aggregate and kill, rape and plunder all in their path in particularly obscene and gruesome ways, you think nations shouldn't band together? Who should cut off their supply lines? Indeed, who will?



Let them sort it out first and foremost. The old post WW1 borders might no longer be of relevance after that, so be it! If they are asking "our" (as in the rest of world) help, fine, let's consider it.

To the teeth armed arab nations are not ill equipped to handle this!


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## NYC Composer (Apr 9, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Thu Apr 09 said:


> NYC Composer @ Thu Apr 09 said:
> 
> 
> > When murderous thugs aggregate and kill, rape and plunder all in their path in particularly obscene and gruesome ways, you think nations shouldn't band together? Who should cut off their supply lines? Indeed, who will?
> ...



I agree, thats the ultimate answer, except Iraqi forces in particular have been slaughtered.


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