# Fitna: The movie



## Scott Rogers (Apr 2, 2008)

..........


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## JB78 (Apr 2, 2008)

I haven't seen this movie and most likely won't, looking at beheadings isn't really my cup of tea.

I've read several detailed descriptions of it's contents though, and of course radical Islam is a terrible thing but so is radical "insert religion here". 
If it were up to me we would collectively stop believing in fairy tales and believe in the human race instead. How about as a start taking all the money that is spent on weapons around the world and instead use it to save the enviroment, building hospitals and schools, making sure there is food and water for EVERYONE on the planet etc...

But that will most likely never happen, when we cannot even stop killing each other over whose imaginary friend is the best. 

Regarding Geert though, he's a hypocrite in my eyes. He's all for freedom of speech but he still wants to ban a book (he might settle for just ripping out sections here and there) and a piece of clothing? 


Best regards
The usual suspect :wink:


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## Bruce Richardson (Apr 2, 2008)

Scott Rogers @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Though the usual suspects will assert that this is manipulative propaganda, begin drawing false moral equivalences, and that this is somehow "our fault", I think the film lets the documentary evidence speak pretty well for itself. European "leaders" are already wringing their hands about it. It was put together by a brave Dutch fellow named Geert Wilders. He is likely a marked man, now. Sigh.



Well, here's where you get to be surprised by me. I think it's a fair film. As religions go, Islam rates below Scientology and Turnip Worship to me. You can't read the Koran as a reasonable human being and come away thinking it's anything but a time bomb, ready to go off whenever desperate ignorance and those who would exploit it combine.



JB78 said:


> I've read several detailed descriptions of it's contents though, and of course radical Islam is a terrible thing but so is radical "insert religion here".



Yes, except even the most laughable fundamentalist loonies aren't chopping off people's heads, torching their bodies, and dragging them through downtown Atlanta...

I would go as far as to say "insert ANY religion here." I've never seen a religion that wasn't an excuse for the pious to coerce the "sinner," whatever sins may be enumerated. The Catholic Church is essentially about controlling women (and look where it got them, an overwhelmingly gay priesthood, many of whom are all about the NAMBLA).

I especially love it when podium bashing preachers get on their John Lennon is the Devil kicks. I've heard entire sermons on the song "Imagine," and I even have one somewhere on paper...it's a riot.

(I always loved that song for the simple question it poses...OK, let's just for a moment say there's no heaven, no hell, no religion...let's start with that premise for just a moment. Then what? It's hard for me to see why that wouldn't be a sermon a true religious leader wouldn't jump to deliver, if only he'd thought of it before that evil Beatle!!!)


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## Bruce Richardson (Apr 2, 2008)

All that said, I would say that a good portion of where we've ended up in world opinion is indeed our fault. We absolutely squandered a golden opportunity to unite the world after 9/11. Instead, this louse of a president and his cabinet of loonies managed to blow an opportunity that will likely never reemerge in our lifetimes.


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## Jaap (Apr 2, 2008)

It is a dangerous movie and I am following this closely (I am Dutch) with also the debates from the politics.

It is a manipulative movie and it is almost a propaganda movie with a one dimensional aspect. The dangerous thing about this movie and his political statements, which you have to know to fully understand why he made the movie, is that he blaming the COMPLETE Islam and all the muslims.
He is not competing against terrorism and the radical Islam (where you have to fight against), but also the normal avarage muslim.

He creates a statement here with this movie which avoids any form of debate (which he refuses to do in depth as well, since he believes his opinion is right and refuses to really bring up arguments).
He caused a big hype here in the Netherlands with announcing (actually it was leaked, but partly due to himself) it months ago and refused to tell what was in it, but that it would be shocking and that it would PROOF that the complete Islam is dangerous.

I am myself living in a neighbourhood with 90% muslims and the fear of this group has grown tremendous. They are fighting the radical Islam as hard as we do and maybe even harder since they suffer the consequenses even bigger due to the fact that everyone blames them.

Now with Fitna Geert Wilders pushes them in a corner and blames ALL the muslims for being dangerous and that they are not welcome in the Netherlands anymore.
Our Geert wants to close the mosques, forbid further immigration from ANYONE (also christians or whatever) from muslim countries, he wants to forbid the Koran and now with this tremendous horrible movie which shows indeed the danger of an ideologie, but that is not represented by the whole Islam world.
From the basic the Islam is one the most friendly religions, however with all the Soera's fallen into wrong hands it become dangerous and it can lead to intepretation of dangerous thoughts.
However a manuscript doesnt kill. It are the people that decide to do that. 

I agree that muslim terrorism has become a substantial factor in our world, but it is not widely accepted in the Islam. With this movie Geert Wilders makes a wrong statement and he closes the debate instead of opening it and give suggestions how we should unify against the extremes.
This is bashing and plain fear politics and that is the worst you can do. Fear controls people and with creating this fear you are creating the same extreme ideology as the one he is fighting against.

Ok, that rant is out


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## JB78 (Apr 2, 2008)

Bruce Richardson @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Yes, except even the most laughable fundamentalist loonies aren't chopping off people's heads, torching their bodies, and dragging them through downtown Atlanta...



Yes that's true Bruce, but I think the difference there, is that the guys in Atlanta haven't had war and death in their backyard quite as much as I would assume the average islamofascist has. I think that if you've seen family and friends getting blown up left and right for as long as you can remember, it's probably not a big deal to behead someone. Especially if you can do it "protected" by the book in question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the KKK a christian organisation? 
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 737AA7pm7H

Those guys aren't really famous for being the nicest guys in town either.


Great post Jaap!

Best regards
Jon


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## Jaap (Apr 2, 2008)

Btw the movie has some nasty mistakes in it.

In the movie he shows Mohammed B. and this is the killer of Theo van Gogh (he was a Dutch filmmaker killed by an muslim extremist for his opinion). The mistake Geert Wilders makes is that he shows a rapper instead of the real Mohammed B.
This rapper made statement against Mohammed B. by dressing up as him.
He is such a freaking fool that he tries to make a statement and not even takes the time to look if the took the right picture....blasting idiot.

Also he FORGOT to ask permission for using the cartoon from the Danish cartoonist and you here also a sound sample of an interview with Theo van Gogh with Rob Muntz and he used that also without permission.
His statement was... Heee! it is on the internet and everything you can find on the internet you can use it without problem or not?
I mean come on. How much of a freaking idiot can you be.

This guy really gets me on my nerves and the hidious thing is that he gets to much attention and is completely media hyped and that is dangerous.
The imigration and assimilation of muslims in the Netherlands is making enormous progress. 
The percentage of unemployment has decreased with 25% in the last couple of years. The number of high educated muslims òF   uïÛF   uïÜF   uïÝF   uïÞF   uïßF   uïàF   uïáF   uïâF   uïãF   uïäF   uïåF   uïæF   uïçF   uïèF   uïéF   uïêF   uïëF   uïìF   uïíF   uïîF   uïïF   uïðF   uïñF   uïòF   uïóF   uïôF   uïõF   uïöF   uï÷F   uïøF   uïùF   uïúF   uïûF   uïüF   uïýF   uïþF   uïÿF   uð F   uðF   uðF   uðF   uðF   uðF   uðF   uðF   uðF   uð	F   uð
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## blue (Apr 2, 2008)

Jaap @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Democracy is a recent thing in Western history and also mid east knows this progress. The Ottoman Empire that was fallen during the Napoleon empire leaded in the end to the foundation of Turkey by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and he made from Turkey a democration where religion and politics strictly are separated (still today).



But we're not really talking about Turkey, are we? Even there, the lifting of the head scarf ban shows how the government is responding to pressure.

Democracy is relatively new, but its path is a long one. A lot had to happen to arrive where we are today. I'm not saying democracy is exclusive to Western cultures, or that it cannot arise from other circumstances, but I think there's a reason our fundamentalism pales in comparison to theirs.



Jaap @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> The other mid eastern countries were heading towards this progress until the first world war made an end to this illusion.



Yea, the Allies really screwed that one up.


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## Bruce Richardson (Apr 2, 2008)

The Caliphate is a pretty dangerous concept.


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## Fernando Warez (Apr 2, 2008)

OMG! This is pure propaganda! How smart do you have to be to figure that out! And those chopping heads wearing mask, how do we know they are Muslim? Do we have proof that they are? No we don't don't. It could be anyone working for anyone in those mask... But it sure is a scaring thing to see and works as great propaganda. People holding signs ''forget your freedom'' lol... Could be anyone! In fact, I've seen what I'm sure were Israelis holding sign saying ''death to America'' the last time Bush visited Israel. They were dressed up as Arabs and you could tell the whole thing was fake. I mean it was really obvious. 

We have to be smart and realize that right wing Israelis extremist would like nothing more than to convince the west Muslim are dangerous and see the allies walk on their enemies. The neocons and others would like nothing more than to have an excuse to go in as well. Would we hear about right wing extremist Muslim if there wasn't so much oil in the region and if Israel wasn't there? No we wouldn't. 

About the video, what an extremist one sided view it was. What a joke! :lol:


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 2, 2008)

Fernando. Which is most likely to you?

A) It is in fact muslim terrorists beheading US contractors in Iraq or?
B) It's Jews/American operatives dressing up as a muslim terrorist and beheading a US contractor to place false blame. (or perhaps he is alive and well and it was simply special FX?)


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## Fernando Warez (Apr 2, 2008)

Christian, the fact is we don't know. If you were to ask this to a judge he would tell something like ''Well, you're showing me a guy wearing a mask, i don't know who this guy is?''. Here's how i look at it. Images like these are very powerful and do anger westerners, and I'm very suspicious of anything that helps demonize Muslim. But just for the fun of it, the guy could be knowing or unknowingly working for the CIA, MI6 or the mossad or anyone who stand to gain from a conflict in the region. And of course he could be a terrorist. But I'm highly suspicious of this. Especially when western medias pick up on it and tell Alqaeda did it as if they had proof. There's a lot of disinformation out there.


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## JB78 (Apr 3, 2008)

Christian Marcussen @ Wed Apr 02 said:


> Fernando. Which is most likely to you?
> 
> A) It is in fact muslim terrorists beheading US contractors in Iraq or?
> B) It's Jews/American operatives dressing up as a muslim terrorist and beheading a US contractor to place false blame. (or perhaps he is alive and well and it was simply special FX?)



It's obviously the first answer Christian, but media can be kind of quick to judge sometimes:



"A hoax beheading video by Benjamin Vanderford received wide attention by the American press.[2] The creators of the video claimed to have released the video to point out how uncritically the media and Islamists would accept an anonymous video (the video turned up on Islamist websites and U.S. media outlets immediately)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beheading_video

More info here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/8/7/113810/8219


I think it's a bit too easy to blame the muslims in todays media climate, no one questions anything anymore. 

Best regards
Jon


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## Sid_Barnhoorn (Apr 3, 2008)

Hi guys,

Another Dutchy here. I agree with Jaap. This is very manipulative and could still be very dangerous for Dutch people, let alone every other Westerner. It's just a way for Wilders to get attention, and he got it. Not only that, he's spreading alot of fear here in Holland which in itself is very dangerous. The Muslims here are already doing there best to fit in and be good citizens and with this movie, by a politician (which is something totally diffirent than a movie by an artist like Theo Van Gogh, who always had radical comments about everything), it's only making things very, very difficult. Add fear to doubt and it could get bad unless we all help a hand and stimulate positive thinking and love instead of fear and hate. Too bad many people are very sensative to the latter two emotions since they come very quickly. So, for the most people, I guess, it doesn't really matter if some of the footage is fake. The main element of fear has already been placed. After that it's very difficult getting out of that enclosed frame of prejudice. I wouldn't be surprised if Wilders got alot of followers.


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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 3, 2008)

You say we don't know. However I'm pretty sure we (being intelligence agencies/law enforcement) have a good idea who was behind the knife in many of these killings including Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg (I think was his name). 

How do they know? Likely through surveillance, wiretaps, interogations and people taking credit.

Sure all of the above can be false evidence, planted or otherwise. But it just seems a bit off to dismiss it as such off hand.

Again it seems your saying that the less likely scenario is that it is radical muslim terrorists. If so, then you must also assume that there pretty much does not excist radical muslim terrorists ready to kill - But there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. On the other hand, if you DO beleive that they exist, then why wouldn't these killings actually be performed by them?

What I don't get is why you always choose the less likely/most conspiraratory option? What is it that makes you view everything as a lie... (don't answer - it's a rethorical question).


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## blue (Apr 3, 2008)

The reaction to this film might be more telling than the film itself. Fitna might be a wildly flawed piece of film making –and you can criticize Wilders for being manipulative and flat out wrong– but the fact that so many fear its release is of more concern to me. We're not talking about people being offended here, we're talking about people fearing for their lives. All over the world. Because of a film.

Whether or not people's fears of radical Islamic retribution are overblown, the fact remains those fears exist enough to encourage self-censorship. That's the bigger problem here.


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## Jaap (Apr 3, 2008)

I typed this post this morning, but could not post it due to the forum not working so here it is 

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It is not that I am afraid of the extremist and that I am trying to be with the extremist.

The point is that this movie claims that the COMPLETE Islam is fundamental and dangerous and that is wrong.
I agree, the happenings in this movie and horrible and I earlier said, we have to fight extremist, but not in this way.
In this way you also judge the avarage normal moslim who is as much against these politics as we are and with bashing on them with a movie like Fitna you create the feed for even more extreme thoughts because they feel left now by the muslims and now also by the rest of society.

As said, this cannot be addressed in a stupid movie of 15 min with only horrible pictures lifting just one side of the story.
The images shown are horrible, but he could better have made a movie about how we could unify the world and work together with the liberal Islam to stop this insane happenings.


@Bruce and Blue

The Caliphate (the global leadership for all the muslims in case somebody wonders what it is) is nowadays a dangerous system in the wrong hands. I don't say it is good. I am saying the liberal movement in the muslim world is trying to get back to the Caliphate (or being inspired by its principals) from 700-1100. At that time it was solid and peacefull idea for leadership.
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## Christian Marcussen (Apr 3, 2008)

JB78 @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> Christian Marcussen @ Wed Apr 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Fernando. Which is most likely to you?
> ...



Obvious to me and you maybe. 

It is interesting about the false beheading - I had not heard of that. I appluad the point of such a stunt, however I would be very careful to use it as any kind of proof or support that the very real beheadings of individuals were carried out by CIA, Mossad or anything like that. To me that is crazy talk at best 

Even if they would actually do something like that in principle, I see no reason (evidence) to support the claim that these beheadings were a result of that. 

I just read up on these beheadings and it seems one of the methods to aidentify the killers is voice recognition. That is how they know Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was the one using the knife. But I guess it's likely he was a CIA agent, or that he never existed in the first place.


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## JB78 (Apr 3, 2008)

No, I don't believe for a second that the other beheadings were faked in any way. 

My point was just that it's very easy to pin almost anything hideous on the muslims these days, and it's sad that not even the media checks their facts before reporting.

I don't believe the CIA has faked anything in Iraq, they don't need to since brutal things are happening on a daily basis (executed by BOTH sides I might add). The biggest thing that speaks against any conspiracies like 911 in my mind is this: If they could somehow fake something huge like 911, how hard would it have been to plant a shitload of WMD's all over Iraq to justify the war?


Best regards
Jon


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## Fernando Warez (Apr 3, 2008)

Christian Marcussen @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> You say we don't know. However I'm pretty sure we (being intelligence agencies/law enforcement) have a good idea who was behind the knife in many of these killings including Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg (I think was his name).
> 
> How do they know? Likely through surveillance, wiretaps, interogations and people taking credit.
> 
> ...



All i said is we don't know who the guy is since he's wearing a mask. I don't always assume it's a conspiracy but i am very suspicious of this war on terror. In fact i believe it's a big hoax and a pretext for guys like the neocons and what i would call the globalist to conquer the region and take control of the resources. And these extremist gave them the perfect excuse. So I'm very suspicious of anything that can help them. We can all see how are leaders would like to scare us. Is there anything scarier than someone getting his head chop off? IMO, these act help the neocons etc more than it helps the terrorist because it portrait Muslims as evil and it does not attract sympathy for their cause. And it make the neocons look like they were right. A lot of people in the world are angry about Iraq but a lot of them stop caring when
they see that kind of stuff. Can our people do that kind of things? Hell yes! The cia has been killing/torturing for decades. I remember after the comments from the Iraqi
after Nick Berg beheading and they all said an Iraqi wouldn't do this. That doesn't mean it's not a terrorist but i just though i should mention it.



> What I don't get is why you always choose the less likely/most conspiraratory option? What is it that makes you view everything as a lie...



Well it's bit naive to expect our leaders to go about their business with an open strategy. It's more likely that they hide what their real intentions are in order to attain their real objective. So yes i expect our leaders to lie and manipulate us. And with the leaders we have today i expect the worse.


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## Fernando Warez (Apr 3, 2008)

> JB78 @ Thu Apr 03 said:
> 
> 
> > No, I don't believe for a second that the other beheadings were faked in any way.
> ...



I hear this argument all the time and it's a weak argument IMO. The thing is 911 was a pivotal moment in our history that made the WOT and the war in Iraq possible. Without 911 none of these event would have been possible so 911 was crucial, finding WMDs was not... They had what they wanted which was to take out Saddam so there was no real need to create a lie. Plus they thought they could use the medias and just lie about it which they did. And if you ask Americans many will tell you that there were WMDs. Anne Coulter said there were WMDs. Now more people are finding out that there were none but Bush's mandate is over and the democrat will take over from there.

OT... BTW, remember that thread when we talked about the London bombing and that the were running exercise of the attack at the same time of the attack and you ask me if they were running exercise on 911? Well they did. They were running lots of exercise on 911. And one of them was a simulation of hijacked airliner being flown into buildings. What are the odds of that? Sorry for not mentioning it earlier i guess i got busy.

P.S. Thanks, i didn't know about the fact video. Sounds like a smart guy. :wink: 

Alright, I'm off to bed. ~o)


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## Bruce Richardson (Apr 3, 2008)

The war on terror is indeed a hoax, that's right. But it's not a hoax based on mocking up attacks. You don't need to mock up Muslim violence.

And we don't need to oversimplify political situations.

But there's no conspiracy, other than the simple fact that neocons were given a voice in the Bush Administration, and the results are plain. They talk like conservatives, but they're actually more akin to supremacists.

That's not the way to fight any war on terror. Terror uses suppressed, ignorant, and superstitious people to achieve an agenda of chaos.

That's why war doesn't work to stop terror. It feeds it, because it adds to the suppression and chaos, and allows those creating the terror to construct new narratives to feed the ignorance and superstition. War only feeds terror.

Education fights terror. If we had spent the two-trillion plus of American capital on a massive school/hospital rollout, starting at the most stable edges of these troubled hotspots, and working inward, we would both isolate and eventually overcome the "manufactured ignorance" by sheer attrition. It would take less than two generations to accomplish.

Instead, our chimps and mongrels in the Administration opened up a new raging sore that will probably take McCain's 100 years, and then some, to heal.

The only way to reverse the process is to completely STOP THE WAR. This restores the strategic ability to isolate, and then we can start winning minds and hearts from the outside in.

Fernando, I'm rambling, but I want to address your point, because I disagree. Conspiracies are easy to construct, and fun to feed, but really, all you have to do is look at the situation and see that there's no conspiracy at all. Every side of this current problem has no trouble being out in the open about their motives. Even Bush is telling the truth. He honestly thinks that somehow we can train an Iraqi Army to the point where it can restore his idea of "order," and they'll eventually transition from this military/police state to a democracy.

It's just that he's wrong, and he can't see that the intellectual soil is not yet prepared for planting that seed.


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## Scott Rogers (Apr 3, 2008)

..........


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## Nick Batzdorf (Apr 3, 2008)

In other words we're dealing with a few total nuts, not the entire Islamic world (which I've read is about 1.3 billion Sunnis and 1.3 million Shia). The problem is that as you say, it doesn't take very many people to kill a lot of others.



> The various agencies charged with the task of thwarting terrorist acts before they happen have so far been able to save many lives by uncovering various terrorist plots in their planning stages, and agency experts say that we never even hear about most of it because the agencies like to keep the other terrorist cells in the dark as much as possible.



And that's why the "war on terror" is that rather than declaring war on half the world.



> And for all those who worry and fret about the FBI listening in on calls made between a known terrorist enclave and a member of a radical Mosque here in the states, it may not be beneath you to recognize for a moment that maybe, just maybe, you and your family are alive because an act of terrorism never took place because of such investigative procedures. Believe it or not, they're just trying to save our lives, not to spy on regular Americans so they can find out where we're going to dinner this Friday night.



I'm concerned about the huge potential for abuse. Why can't they get a court order at least so they have some oversight? It doesn't take very long.

And it's not like there's no precedent for FBI or CIA abuse!

But what concerns me far more than wiretapping or reading emails is all that patriotic stuff (off the top of my head):

extraordinary renditions

Guantanamo and all the secret prisons

waterboarding

our use of mercenaries ("contractors"), especially ones from countries with horrendous human rights records.



> The Chamberlains of the world always seem to confuse prudence with "living in fear." We ain't living in Disneyland, folks.



The flip problem that is that the Bushes of the world always seem to confuse picking the nose of the bull with prudence. We ain't living in Knott's Berry Farm either.

Behaving in a way that doesn't create terrorism is not appeasement, it's prudence. And it's right. So let's close down all those military bases all over the world.


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## Fernando Warez (Apr 3, 2008)

Bruce, you're not rambling at all. I think you're spot on about terror and how to fight it, education etc.. And it should be obvious to anyone if you ask me. What i disagree is the conspiracy and your take on Muslim. I don't believe Muslim are more violent than others. I'm sure they are people just like me and you. I know there was once a real Muslim terror group i think it was called the brother hood of Muslim, but it was almost completely dismantle, if not all. Because it turns out Muslim are people after all and they don't like terrorist anymore than we do. 

About the conspiracy part I'm not going to debate this here, but because Scott has tried to ridicule me a few times i may start a 911 thread to defend myself and i hope you can reed it with and open mind(don't worry it's not going to be a long thread as i don't have
the hart for it anyway). But I'll say this, the fact that they were running exercise of the exact same nature of the attack both on 911 and 7/7 bombing in London should at the very least raise some eyebrows. Because the odds of that happening at the same time by accident are virtually non existent.


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## JB78 (Apr 3, 2008)

Here you go Scott:

http://www.qsleeper.com/

Sleep tight!

Best regards
Jon


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## Fernando Warez (Apr 3, 2008)

Scott, how many terrorist have actually been charged for plotting against the US since 911? I know of one only? It's funny we hear about all these plot etc.. but no body actually get charge for it, what's going on?

And they are listening to our phone. At those who are consider dissident at least and others.

And I'm sorry to break this to you people but terrorist don't talk about their plans on phone! :roll:


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## Scott Rogers (Apr 3, 2008)

..........


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## Fernando Warez (Apr 3, 2008)

Oh but i offered you an argument Scott. Just give me the names of those who have been charged?



> Scott, how many terrorist have actually been charged for plotting against the US since 911? I know of one only? It's funny we hear about all these plot etc.. but no body actually get charge for it, what's going on?






> For those with nothing of actual substance to offer - if the most they can squirt out is apparent dementia and/or obnoxious, trollish behavior, then they needn't waste their useful energies where I am concerned.



That's funny coming from you. I mean, you referred to Ed as cock sucker and me as genius 911 etc.. I just had to point that out.


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## Fernando Warez (Apr 3, 2008)

JB78 @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> Here you go Scott:
> 
> http://www.qsleeper.com/



I got a good laugh out of that one. But i wonder if they sold any?...


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## Ed (Apr 3, 2008)

Scott Rogers @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> After how many times of offering regular arguments, only to have them repeatedly ignored and twisted? And after, and only because, Ed began his thread with an insult to the American people,



No Scott.

I said most Americans must be stupid, and I gave you reasons. Why could I possibly think so many Americans must be stupid? How about them voting for Bush not once but twice, but now we have them voting for McCain one of the worst candidates there is. They vote him in the Republican primary, and even a certain percentage of dumb ass Democrats apparently are going to vote for him if Hilary or Obama dont get the nomination. Even if I didnt like Hilary or Obama I'd rather see them in charge than that guy, for all the reasons I gave which you still completely ignore (and probably will never address much less acknowledge). 

And not all lies are the same, McCains lies will cost billions for the economy and hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of lives. Your problem with Obama is nothing compared to McCain. Cant you understand that McCain is already lying and giving disinformation regarding Iraq? He's telling you its going pretty well, that you or I could walk around there in some safe streets in Baghdad. That the general can drive around in an unarmed humvee. All lies all nonsence. This is the kind of crap you're going to get if he's elected. You'd think the American people would have learnt to stay away of this kind of nonsence with the Bush administration and WMDs but apparently not. So not only are you going to get a president that is going to feed you lies regarding the state of Iraq and however many wars he will take the country too (_he has said there will be more wars, my friends_) but he has indicated he wants the troops to stay in Iraq until they win this phony unwinnable War on Terror and he'll stay as long as it takes to do that, even if it takes 100 years. 

You still fail you recognise that I _will _freely and _have _freely said that I also say most British people are stupid in the same way. I dont believe they are quite as stupid as Americans because I cant imagine them voting for the same ridiculous candidates and partys (you cant make British politicians look bad the way you can with Bush or McCain) and we dont have a right wing fundamentalist religious majority controlling politics. 

Oh and its bad form abandoning another thread to continue to bash me in another. 

Ed


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## artsoundz (Apr 3, 2008)

Ok, Ed, Fernando- we get it.

Fernando- "

"So people who criticize American policy do it because they are not successful in life or because they have a small dick? "

That's more than I really wanted to know about you but thanks for sharing.


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## artsoundz (Apr 3, 2008)

Ed @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> Scott Rogers @ Thu Apr 03 said:
> 
> 
> > After how many times of offering regular arguments, only to have them repeatedly ignored and twisted? And after, and only because, Ed began his thread with an insult to the American people,





." I dont believe they(brits) are quite as stupid as Americans ...."

Hey man... who let Yoko into the country?.....


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## Ed (Apr 3, 2008)

artsoundz @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> ." I dont believe they(brits) are quite as stupid as Americans ...."
> 
> Hey man... who let Yoko into the country?.....



I dont get the joke. What are you saying?


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## artsoundz (Apr 3, 2008)

The brits let yoko in. Broke up the Beatles. bad joke as your stupid Americans comments are.

How about this-The British Empire. You guys used to be THE World Power. How'd you let THAT happen? pretty stupid....: )


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## Ed (Apr 3, 2008)

artsoundz @ Thu Apr 03 said:


> The brits let yoko in. Broke up the Beatles. bad joke as your stupid Americans comments are.
> 
> How about this-The British Empire. You guys used to be THE World Power. How'd you let THAT happen? pretty stupid....: )



How'd we let what happen? I really am going to need you to spell it out.


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## artsoundz (Apr 3, 2008)

Go'Bama!


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## Jaap (Apr 4, 2008)

Just a quick reply here at Scott's post at the previous page.

I have not seen the English version of Fitna and I will do that later on this weekend, so maybe he changed some content in it.

In the Dutch version he blames all the Muslims and the complete Koran for everything that happened in the world. Also in political sayings he blames ALL the muslims, not just the extremist, but everyone.
One can have this opinion and all opinions should be expressed, no matter how wrong or right they are.
I think the problem here is that he is a politician. As a politician you don't feed the fear. If this is what he thinks and what he see what is happening in the world, it is his duty to work on it with the rest of the world to find a solution. In this movie he does not give any solution and that is wrong. He feeds the fear.

Maybe I am a Chamberlain like figure, but in my opinion it is better to discuss and work on a progressive solution instead of making Nazi-like one dimensional propaganda like movies.

I am not anti-american nor am I anti muslim, I am anti-idiotism and idiots can be found all over the world and unfortunately too many times on strategic places of power. These idiots drag half the world and their people into dangerous situations and putting their lives onto risk whether this is done by Bush, Blair, Wilders, Osama Bin Laden, Poetin or whomever. That is wrong in my opinion.

I am not that naive that I think that with smoking a weedpipe we will solve all the problems in the world and I am also not against militairy intervention in some cases, but I think it happens too often with the wrong reasons.

I have been in Libanon, Iraq, Iran and Turkey and the fact that I have been there does not justify my thoughts, since I am not the one with the knowlegde and power to speak justification nor to speak about what is right and what is wrong, but I know the muslim world till a very reasonable level (as said before I am also living in one of those "bad neighbourhoods" as Geert Wilders names them with 90% of muslims) and all I know from my perspective and with the knowlegde I have that the avarage muslim is as good and as bad as the avarage Christian, Boedhist or atheist because it is the same human being as everybody in this world struggling with or against the forces that rules his or her country.


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