# Izotope Music Production Pro - Subscription Now...



## Thundercat (Feb 27, 2021)

Looks like Izotope is going to subscription only for their Music Production Suite. Sad to me; I think it's a lot of money to rent their stuff. I own MPS 3 and I like it, but I would hate to have to keep paying for it monthly or yearly.

Izotope MPS Pro Subscription


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## nyxl (Feb 27, 2021)

Seems to me like you can still purchase it permanently if you don't want to get a subscription, can't you?









Music Production Suite 5 Plugin Bundle | iZotope


Music Production Suite 5 Universal Edition includes the new Ozone 10 Advanced, RX 10 Standard and Neutron 4 mixing suite. Launched in June, the Universal Edition was created for customer to buy all iZotope's flagship releases in 2022 without having to upgrade. Also includes surround reverbs...




www.izotope.com


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## rrichard63 (Feb 27, 2021)

nyxl said:


> Seems to me like you can still purchase it permanently if you don't want to get a subscription, can't you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe, but it's not 100% clear. The ad copy refers to "Pro" versions of several components that may or may not be the same as the "Advanced" versions in Music Production Suite 4.

EDIT: MPS 4 includes RX 8 Standard rather than RX 8 Advanced. I have no idea which one "RX Pro" is going to correspond to.


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## Thundercat (Feb 27, 2021)

nyxl said:


> Seems to me like you can still purchase it permanently if you don't want to get a subscription, can't you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see a way to buy the "pro" version. Maybe I missed it?


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## storyteller (Feb 27, 2021)

If they make certain products exclusive to a subscription, they are basically committing financial suicide. Too many options available elsewhere.


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## emilio_n (Feb 27, 2021)

I just bought Music Production Suite 4 and now this... 
Disappointed. 

I will use MPS4 while is useful but I will not move to subscription in any case. as @storyteller mention, there are a lot of other options and more to come for sure.

Companies are getting crazy with the subscription model.


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## ghobii (Feb 27, 2021)

With Izotopes strong-arm sales approach this seemed inevitable. I like there stuff, but have also been finding others that I like just as much lately. There's so much competition now, it must be really rough going for everyone.


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## Thundercat (Feb 27, 2021)

ghobii said:


> With Izotopes strong-arm sales approach this seemed inevitable. I like there stuff, but have also been finding others that I like just as much lately. There's so much competition now, it must be really rough going for everyone.


Are there other plugins that have the AI-driven analysis of your music, and that will automatically apply a range of plugins to optimize? I use this a lot for my mixes.

Thanks,

Mike


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## anp27 (Feb 27, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Are there other plugins that have the AI-driven analysis of your music, and that will automatically apply a range of plugins to optimize? I use this a lot for my mixes.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mike


Quite a few on the market now, off the top of my head: TEOTE, Gulfoss, Hornet MasterTool/ThiryOne/TrackShaper, Equivocate, etc....


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 27, 2021)

Sooner or later this subscription bubble thing is going to burst, and I, for one, can't wait. 

Do it like East West, where you get the choice, or not at all.


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## Paul Cardon (Feb 27, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> Maybe, but it's not 100% clear. The ad copy refers to "Pro" versions of several components that may or may not be the same as the "Advanced" versions in Music Production Suite 4.
> 
> EDIT: MPS 4 includes RX 8 Standard rather than RX 8 Advanced. I have no idea which one "RX Pro" is going to correspond to.


From what I can tell, and from a mention further down the page that mentions "10+ RX plug-ins for audio repair", I imagine this "Pro" version is just a handpicked selection of plugins relevant to music production over a full suite of tools like the Standard and Advanced versions. There's mention of a "coming soon" standalone app for RX Pro, and I can imagine that will be those selected plugins available in the RX interface.


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 27, 2021)

Here we go again. With a move to subscription only a company reveals to have no respect for their customers. I have no sympathy for this nonsense.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 28, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Are there other plugins that have the AI-driven analysis of your music, and that will automatically apply a range of plugins to optimize? I use this a lot for my mixes.


Sonible is more or less AI only. 








sonible | Audio Soft- & Hardware made in Austria


Award-winning software for music and audio production, top-notch hardware for live and 3D audio – made by enthusiasts, made for enthusiasts




www.sonible.com


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## jcrosby (Feb 28, 2021)

If the 'pro' version of RX has 10 plugins it's ridiculously stripped back version of RX compared to advanced. I can't think of a single full-time musician that would opt to rent a stripped back version of their software vs. just buying the full (or most relevant) version outright...

This whole "Pro" version thing seems like it's centered around the psychology of selling part-time/hobbyist/student musicians on the idea of using "pro plugins". (Whatever that means...)

It seems a bit confused... Then again Izotope as of late has been having a bit of an identity crisis compared to the Izotope I fell in love with 13-ish years ago.


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## MartinH. (Feb 28, 2021)

In case they read this, just want to add my voice to the choir of people that like their stuff but will never subscribe, no matter what. I'm sure I'd buy another update for perpetual licenses in the future, but everyone who goes sub only is dead to me and I will no longer recommend their products.


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## AudioLoco (Feb 28, 2021)

From what I can see you can still buy separate plugins.

Anyhow, already got what I like from them (actually the sublime stuff from Exponential Audio, a company they bought) and RX(7) which is incredible indeed.

There are now calling everything "pro" which is a funny move. You usually find "Pro" on Behringer stuff 

Would give up on anything that goes full subscription and find an alternative.


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## jcrosby (Feb 28, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> There are now calling everything "pro" which is a funny move. You usually find "Pro" on Behringer stuff


Exactly my point


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## Thundercat (Feb 28, 2021)

Another part of the problem is they have released this "pro" moniker without actually telling you what's better or different about it than the "advanced" versions of their own plugins. I tried to find out on their website but could not. Value proposition is important; nobody wants to pay for something they already have, or that is different in ways they do not understand. Someone in their marketing dept needs to get a clue...


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## rrichard63 (Feb 28, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> There are now calling everything "pro" which is a funny move. You usually find "Pro" on Behringer stuff





Thundercat said:


> Someone in their marketing dept needs to get a clue...


True. But I can't help feeling that they're not dumb or incompetent. They might know something about the marketplace that I don't.

But they have certainly turned me off to their products with this "Pro" labelling. Especially since there's no real explanation of what (if anything) it means.


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## HeliaVox (Feb 28, 2021)

I had to do some searching, but when you log into your account, the support link becomes available, and that's where all the answers are.

Pro is the labeling they're using for the advanced products that are in the subscription model.

So Pro=Advanced. For now. 

They do say that the Pro versions will eventually be getting updates that will not be in the non-subscription versions of the software.

So there you have it.


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## Michael Antrum (Feb 28, 2021)

HeliaVox said:


> They do say that the Pro versions will eventually be getting updates that will not be in the non-subscription versions of the software.


How many damn subscriptions do these people think we can afford ?

The good thing is, however, that there is always another developer to move onto. I made the move from Adobe to Affinity, and its saved me a fortune....


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## AllanH (Feb 28, 2021)

I will not jump on a subscription plan unless there is some overwhelming reason to do so. I think iZotope has excellent technology, but much of it is faily easily replaced with other tools, many of which I already have. $25/mo is just silly, at least for me.


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## GtrString (Feb 28, 2021)

Not surprised at all. I became pissed over the upgrade regime they pulled off, so I've sold off the plugins I had from them.. if I wan't clean and surgical, I'm perfectly happy with stock daw plugins.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Feb 28, 2021)

I'm sorry, I guess that's my fault as I'm currently selling all my plugins from them (and EA).


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## Thundercat (Feb 28, 2021)

HeliaVox said:


> I had to do some searching, but when you log into your account, the support link becomes available, and that's where all the answers are.
> 
> Pro is the labeling they're using for the advanced products that are in the subscription model.
> 
> ...


Discovering USP should not be a marathon...but good job.


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## rrichard63 (Feb 28, 2021)

HeliaVox said:


> Pro is the labeling they're using for the advanced products that are in the subscription model.


With one exception: "RX Pro for Music has the same features as RX 8 Standard."

Thanks for the the information on how to find these details. Their description is carefully worded, but I think one implication is clear. There will not be a Music Production Suite 5. And there might not be an Ozone 10 or Neutron 4 or RX 9 except by subscription. It's a little harder to tell about the individual products.


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## ghobii (Feb 28, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Are there other plugins that have the AI-driven analysis of your music, and that will automatically apply a range of plugins to optimize? I use this a lot for my mixes.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mike


I didn't really use the AI in Izotope much except to sometimes get a second opinion on my mix to consider. But lately I've been using TDR SlickEQ M (M for Mastering edition) which has a feature that listens to your track and gives suggestions based on a reference you give it or just pink noise.

I like the pink noise option because it can be a good reality check for tired ears, or someone just prone to adding way too much low end to everything  I believe TEOTE also makes adjustments against pink noise.

The TDR stuff in general is well thought out and I'm really becoming a fan.


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## HeliaVox (Feb 28, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> How many damn subscriptions do these people think we can afford ?
> 
> The good thing is, however, that there is always another developer to move onto. I made the move from Adobe to Affinity, and its saved me a fortune....


I was going to post something similar to this!
There's only so much discretionary income I have to throw around.
Eventually these companies are going to subscribe their way out of customers.


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## rgames (Feb 28, 2021)

HeliaVox said:


> Eventually these companies are going to subscribe their way out of customers.


People in internet forums keep saying that. And reality keeps proving them wrong: Adobe's revenues have grown 25x since they went to a subscription model about seven years ago.

The truth is that almost all software in the professional world *outside of the music business* is subscription and has been for decades. Adobe was the first company with a large hobbyist market that made the switch. Sure, they probably lost a lot of non-professionals. But they make more money from the professionals they kept. So they make a lot more money.

Frankly, I think Adobe have done a pretty bad job on the development side since moving to the subscription model. There are much better options emerging. But I'm just one vote. Apparently there are enough people happy with Adobe to make them fabulously successful since the switch.

All we can do is vote with our dollars and watch what happens. That's the way it works, so hooray for power to the people through capitalism.

rgames


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## emilio_n (Feb 28, 2021)

rgames said:


> People in internet forums keep saying that. And reality keeps proving them wrong: Adobe's revenues have grown 25x since they went to a subscription model about seven years ago.
> 
> The truth is that almost all software in the professional world *outside of the music business* is subscription and has been for decades. Adobe was the first company with a large hobbyist market that made the switch. Sure, they probably lost a lot of non-professionals. But they make more money from the professionals they kept. So they make a lot more money.
> 
> ...


The difference is that with Adobe, if you are a photographer, like me, with something under 10$I am fully covered. I don't like subscriptions and it's true that the development of Adobe software is slow at least. Imagine that most of the music software we use moved to subscription. 29$ Izotope + 29$ EW + XX$ for your DAW and other XX$ for another VI company that you love... I can pay monthly easily the same that I pay yearly to do my photography job.

I think fair yearly upgrade prices will work better in the music field. Just my two cents.


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## Geoff Grace (Feb 28, 2021)

rgames said:


> The truth is that almost all software in the professional world *outside of the music business* is subscription and has been for decades.


So you're saying that by early 2001—which is the most recent year that was decades ago—almost all software in the professional world (outside of the music business) was already subscription based?

Are you sure you're not overstating your case a little? I was working in the music business at that time, so I have no experience to say otherwise; but I find that assertion to be very surprising.

Best,

Geoff


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## Geoff Grace (Feb 28, 2021)

I just went to iZotope's site and found that traditional upgrade offers were still available.

Is there evidence that iZotope won't offer both subscriptions and purchases going forward? Has there been a statement that iZotope is going to be a subscription-only business?

Best,

Geoff


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## Paul Cardon (Feb 28, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> I just went to iZotope's site and found that traditional upgrade offers were still available.
> 
> Is there evidence that iZotope won't offer both subscriptions and purchases going forward? Has there been a statement that iZotope is going to be a subscription-only business?
> 
> ...


I think the thing that scares people is the way they're reimagining bundle options. At the moment you can still purchase Music Production Suite 4 outright, but I think it's unlikely we'll keep getting good bundle deals going forward as they've sacrificed the "Music Production Suite" name to the new subscription services, so I doubt we'll see a MPS 5. It'd be a confusing branding decision to continue the MPS bundle in any other form.

I doubt they'll get rid of purchases, but I'm expecting them to slowly start limiting their bundle purchase options, instead pushing anyone who wants "a deal" towards the subs. Kind of similar to how Slate Audio has done it ever since they started their subscription plans. Sure you can buy individual plugins, but they're all overpriced and there are no bundles and hey, the subscription is just so much more affordable!

The way you funnel customers towards these lucrative subscription options is by making purchasing the software less attractive. I've already been frustrated for a while with how much iZotope charges for minimal number upgrades, even with their loyalty discounts. The $80 "loyalty" price for the Nectar 3 -> Nectar 3 Plus upgrade to get like 2-3 new edge-case features blew my mind. Insanity.

EDIT: Also, the way they're dropping the numbering from all the listed plugins on the subscription page instead of giving them a "Pro" identifier. Does it make sense for them to maintain separate product numbering alongside that? I don't know.


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## rgames (Feb 28, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> Are you sure you're not overstating your case a little? I was working in the music business at that time, so I have no experience to say otherwise; but I find that assertion to be very surprising.


Maybe a little, but the specialty software at the core of other professions - engineering, science, accounting, finance, medicine, etc. - are, indeed, almost exclusively subscription-based and always have been.

Of course the businesses built around these professions also use Microsoft Windows and Office and a few other tools that are sometimes subscription and sometimes not (generally depending on the size of the company). But the software tied specifically to those professions - yes, almost always subscription. And vastly more expensive than what the music business uses.

Here's one example: let's say you're SpaceX. You run a tool called "Satellite Toolkit" (STK) from a company called AGI. A single-seat license for STK can easily be over $100,000 per year.

Here's another: let's say you're Ford. You run a computational physics tool called LS-DYNA to calculate how vehicle structures crumple when they hit something. A single-seat license for LS-DYNA can easily be $20,000 per year.

And the health care industry... Medical billing software is huge business because of the complicated mess we have (at least in the US) and is also many tens of thousands of dollars per year for a single license.

Now granted, the health care market is vastly larger than the music market (it's the largest single-market expenditure in the US by quite a lot) so you'd expect it to support such costs. But auto and satellite markets aren't *that* far off from the entertainment market, so they're a better comparison.

So, based on that comparison, $50,000 per year for a DAW seems reasonble, right? Well, let's hope not. But the point remains that specialty software for musicians is a *lot* less expensive than for other industries, subscription or otherwise.

The reason is that nobody is doing medical billing for fun, so the customer base is vastly different. More to the point, the customer bases have significantly different demands, particularly with regards to support. If you have a license for STK, you also have several people you can call up for help, usually within an hour or two. Not so much in the world of music software...!

rgames


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## Paul Cardon (Feb 28, 2021)

rgames said:


> Maybe a little, but the specialty software at the core of other professions - engineering, science, accounting, finance, medicine, etc. - are, indeed, almost exclusively subscription-based and always have been.
> 
> Of course the businesses built around these professions also use Microsoft Windows and Office and a few other tools that are sometimes subscription and sometimes not (generally depending on the size of the company). But the software tied specifically to those professions - yes, almost always subscription. And vastly more expensive than what the music business uses.
> 
> ...


It makes sense when those pieces of software are heavily maintained and updated and come with support teams and integrators when there is a live product component that justifies continual payment, but I don't think anyone is convinced that plugin makers will ever provide something similar, other than the occasional compatibility updates. I do have to admit that for iZotope, it kind of makes sense, as they do seem to be continually updating their plugins


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## Technostica (Mar 1, 2021)

Izotope have the worst licensing software system that I have come across, so they need to sort that out.


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## AudioLoco (Mar 1, 2021)

rgames said:


> Maybe a little, but the specialty software at the core of other professions - engineering, science, accounting, finance, medicine, etc. - are, indeed, almost exclusively subscription-based and always have been.
> 
> Of course the businesses built around these professions also use Microsoft Windows and Office and a few other tools that are sometimes subscription and sometimes not (generally depending on the size of the company). But the software tied specifically to those professions - yes, almost always subscription. And vastly more expensive than what the music business uses.
> 
> ...


Very interesting.... I didn't realize this business model for other industries was the norm. That makes totally sense....for them I guess.

Although:
With Photoshop and Pro Tools there is/was a MONOPOLY, or a "standard". The terms are interchangeable. 
It means you often cannot function in the "pro" world without those software products.

That puts you in the corner and as a client I despise it with all my being.

In the case of Izotope, I can see only RX being the "super pro product" which can be essential for some. Also, I would really hate to not be able to use R4 in the future. 

For the rest of their product I couldn't give a flying f...lamenco honestly. 
Rocket science, medical surgery, car incident simulator it is not at the end of the day, and someone else doing great sounding stuff wiil come along.

....If all of them decide to go sub... I'll go back to hardware


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## Soundbed (Mar 1, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Looks like Izotope is going to subscription only for their Music Production Suite.


I don’t see “only” implied or expressed anywhere in iZotope’s marketing. 

iZotope are introducing a subscription product.

One of the advantages is having tools that are always up to date.

They don’t say they will stop selling perpetual licenses.

And as far as I know they don’t plan to stop selling perpetual licenses.

I partner with iZotope in my day job so I’m obligated to say also:

“My opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect my employers.”

I can ask their marketing team if there is any public messaging on this topic during our meeting this Wednesday.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Mar 1, 2021)

HeliaVox said:


> I had to do some searching, but when you log into your account, the support link becomes available, and that's where all the answers are.
> 
> Pro is the labeling they're using for the advanced products that are in the subscription model.
> 
> ...


I am thinking about this move, since it costs buckets to move on everytime macOS updates...

But we shall see. I personally do not mind the subscription model, as I can cancel from them when I want to 

Just got to be disciplined on the payments and budgeting.


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## MarkusS (Mar 1, 2021)

I think subscription models are hard to sell to us musicians. We like to have our instruments, our external processors, who want to rent a guitar? Same with samples and software.

I have been with Izotope since Ozon 3, I guess I own all of their plug-ins, even quite a few I have never used. But there is no way I will be considering the subscription model, they are such a great company - I hope they will be listening to their customers.


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## rgames (Mar 1, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> That puts you in the corner and as a client I despise it with all my being.


Yes, I agree. But that's the great thing about free markets: if enough people despise a business model and/or product it will eventually die. But it takes time for that democratic process to work its magic.

I wouldn't be surprised if Adobe ends up in that situation.

rgames


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## Thundercat (Mar 1, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I don’t see “only” implied or expressed anywhere in iZotope’s marketing.
> 
> iZotope are introducing a subscription product.
> 
> ...


In my original post I said it "looked like" they were going subscription only. As in, I can't find any mention of being able to purchase their pro products anywhere, can you? I only see a subscription offered. That implies they will not offer their pro products for sale.

I hope I'm wrong; I like their stuff and don't want to subscribe.

Yes please do talk to the marketing team. Tell them their loyal customers are not pleased and many will not continue with them if they go sub only.


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## Thundercat (Mar 1, 2021)

rgames said:


> ...Frankly, I think Adobe have done a pretty bad job on the development side since moving to the subscription model. There are much better options emerging...
> 
> rgames


Agreed. They update their software every 5 minutes - including constantly tweaking the UI, which is confusing, but I don't think it's appreciably better than 5 years ago. As long as they are fat and happy they have little incentive on their sub model. I feel like sub models benefit the companies way more than the regular users.


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## Polkasound (Mar 1, 2021)

rgames said:


> Adobe's revenues have grown 25x since they went to a subscription model about seven years ago.


Yes, but that also may be due to the fact their software never had true competition in the pro market, they made subscription the only way to get it, and the world's population is always increasing. If there were creative suites out there equal to Adobe's, only then would we have a clearer picture of who's subscribing to Adobe because they _want_ to, and who's subscribing because they _have_ to.


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## fakemaxwell (Mar 1, 2021)

The value proposition of Adobe (50 bucks a month for everything they make) and something like Izotope (30 dollars for a few plugins) is way out of wack. I hope the Post Production Suite doesn't end up with the same fate.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 1, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> I hope the Post Production Suite doesn't end up with the same fate.


I'm pretty sure it will, because RX 8 Advanced is not included in the Music Production Pro sub or in the Producers Club sub.


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## vitocorleone123 (Mar 1, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> The value proposition of Adobe (50 bucks a month for everything they make) and something like Izotope (30 dollars for a few plugins) is way out of wack. I hope the Post Production Suite doesn't end up with the same fate.


I could be wrong, but, in tech, once a company goes to a subscription model, it generally doesn't turn back. Instead, it'll double-down until it succeeds or goes out of business. If one subscription is modestly successful, then they'll double-down and do other subscriptions/bundles. 

Over time, they'll work to wean everyone off the stand-alones with slow updates/fixes, fewer features, and high list prices (hi, Plugin Alliance!), as well as tons of marketing.

And, if the company survives, it'll somehow return with "lifetime" subscriptions that'll look strangely like the then-defunct bundles you could buy outright. Only it'll be online/cloud based so that if you pay and the company goes out of business, you'll probably lose access.


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## Thundercat (Mar 1, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> I could be wrong, but, in tech, once a company goes to a subscription model, it generally doesn't turn back. Instead, it'll double-down until it succeeds or goes out of business. If one subscription is modestly successful, then they'll double-down and do other subscriptions/bundles.
> 
> Over time, they'll work to wean everyone off the stand-alones with slow updates/fixes, fewer features, and high list prices (hi, Plugin Alliance!), as well as tons of marketing.
> 
> And, if the company survives, it'll somehow return with "lifetime" subscriptions that'll look strangely like the then-defunct bundles you could buy outright. Only it'll be online/cloud based so that if you pay and the company goes out of business, you'll probably lose access.


A few years back I was all in with Cakewalk Sonar. Then they offered a $199 "lifetime" update - I smelled something fishy but I bit.

A few months later they sold to Bandcamp, and it became completely free.

Needless to say I felt completely ripped!!! It was a last minute cash grab before sailing off into the sunset with users' money...such incredibly poor business practices. Shameful. I'm still resentful all these years later...


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 1, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> In my original post I said it "looked like" they were going subscription only. As in, I can't find any mention of being able to purchase their pro products anywhere, can you? I only see a subscription offered. That implies they will not offer their pro products for sale.


There are "Advanced" products for sale here:









iZotope Deals


View current deals on iZotope products and access savings on audio plug-ins for mixing, mastering, audio restoration, and more.




www.izotope.com





I still think it's a good idea to ask for clarification about the future, nonetheless. In the meantime, I'm going with a "wait and see" approach.

Best,

Geoff


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 1, 2021)

MarkusS said:


> I think subscription models are hard to sell to us musicians. We like to have our instruments, our external processors, who want to rent a guitar? Same with samples and software.


The desire for ownership is certainly part of the equation.

Another factor is that the nature of the music business is feast or famine, which doesn't support a steady cash flow for subscriptions. We buy gear when we can afford to, and stop buying when income slows. Pawn stores are full of treasured instruments from cash-strapped musicians.

It's true that most of us are not the subscription crowd.

Best,

Geoff


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## rgames (Mar 1, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Yes, but that also may be due to the fact their software never had true competition in the pro market, they made subscription the only way to get it, and the world's population is always increasing. If there were creative suites out there equal to Adobe's, only then would we have a clearer picture of who's subscribing to Adobe because they _want_ to, and who's subscribing because they _have_ to.


I agree 100%. As I said above, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Adobe goes the way of MySpace.

There are some strong competitors out there right now that are as good/better in every way except widespread adoption.

rgames


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## robgb (Mar 1, 2021)

Looks to me like you can still buy everything if you want. Maybe like East West, they offer you a choice. I see nothing wrong with that. The only mistake would be to go exclusive with subscriptions like Adobe did.


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## robgb (Mar 1, 2021)

rgames said:


> There are some strong competitors out there right now that are as good/better in every way except widespread adoption.


I was a hardcore, twenty year Adobe Photoshop user. I now use Affinity Photo, currently on sale for about $30 (I believe). It pretty much does everything PS can do and some of it a lot better. I bought it a year or so ago and haven't looked back.


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## jcrosby (Mar 1, 2021)

vitocorleone123 said:


> Over time, they'll work to wean everyone off the stand-alones with slow updates/fixes, fewer features, and high list prices (hi, Plugin Alliance!), as well as tons of marketing.


And yet I cannot rid my inbox of Plugin Alliance fire sales, vouchers, etc. So far at least, they don't seem to be showing any interest in discontinuing sales in addition to offering a subscription.

Geoff put it perfectly - feast or famine... Any developer thinking there's endless piles of cash to make in an industry that's default state is feast/famine would be foolish. Offering a subscription in addition to licenses/sales is the smart choice as far as a subscription model goes, and so far that seems to be the move PA opted for. Hopefully Izotope also opt for the smarter road as well... Time will tell.


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## MartinH. (Mar 1, 2021)

rgames said:


> Yes, I agree. But that's the great thing about free markets: if enough people despise a business model and/or product it will eventually die. But it takes time for that democratic process to work its magic.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if Adobe ends up in that situation.
> 
> rgames


Maybe I'm too cynical, but I wouldn't call a survivorship bias of the most exploitative variants of basically everything in capatilism something like "democratic process working it's magic".

"Free" market is a bit of an illusion too. First-mover-advantage is huge for many things, including Software, and it's not a fair competition when you're going up against companies that don't even have a need to turn a profit because they can re-finance through other revenue streams (thinking of amazon here, but afaik Adobe also makes most of their money not from the CC subs).


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## nightjar (Mar 1, 2021)

robgb said:


> Looks to me like you can still buy everything if you want. Maybe like East West, they offer you a choice. I see nothing wrong with that. The only mistake would be to go exclusive with subscriptions like Adobe did.


Not quite... iZotope has stated that the Subscription(Pro) versions of their apps will have feature not available in the purchased version... THIS is the biggest problem as I see it.


----------



## rrichard63 (Mar 1, 2021)

nightjar said:


> Not quite... iZotope has stated that the Subscription(Pro) versions of their apps will have feature not available in the purchased version... THIS is the biggest problem as I see it.


With the implication that there will be no further upgrades outside of the subscriptions. In about 12 to 18 months, no one will be buying them any more as features are introduced into the subscription products that the old products don't have. 

It sounds as if, inside the "Pro" subscription versions, new features and performance improvements will not be signaled by new version numbers.


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## jcrosby (Mar 1, 2021)

nightjar said:


> Not quite... iZotope has stated that the Subscription(Pro) versions of their apps will have feature not available in the purchased version... THIS is the biggest problem as I see it.


Yeah re-reading the FAQ it doesn't look good... They're awfully quick to point all of the nots. _Plugin X or bundle Y will will not receive the same updates or optimizations as the "Pro" version_, etc. 
Not something I want any part of...


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## artomatic (Mar 2, 2021)

I'm repulsed by subscription model.
I'm repulsed by greedy companies (Avid, Adobe, etc.) 
It's a goodbye for me, Izotope!


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## Geoff Grace (Mar 2, 2021)

For what it's worth, they're having the same sale they had last year at this time:





__





Up to 70% off iZotope Music Production Suite, Tonal Balance Bundle, upgrades, crossgrades, and individual plugins


Up to 70% off iZotope Music Production Suite, Tonal Balance Bundle, upgrades, crossgrades, and individual plugins: https://www.jrrshop.com/computer-software?dir=asc&limit=54&manufacturer=343&order=name&sale=1&type=2 iZotope Mix & Master Bundle Crossgrade from any Elements/Standard/Advanced...




vi-control.net





Best,

Geoff


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## Technostica (Mar 2, 2021)

Music Production Suite seems to be almost permanently on sale. 
Look on ebay also as there are a few good sellers on there that have it for about £250 for the full version.


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## pondinthestream (Mar 2, 2021)

First the I have noticed the subscription. Not very attractive. But I also have hit the sweet spot with RX7. Will take a lot to get me to upgrade that. Like feathering of spectral selection for example


----------



## Michael Antrum (Mar 2, 2021)

Geoff Grace said:


> For what it's worth, they're having the same sale they had last year at this time:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think only East West beats Izotope in the 'we're having a sale' stakes.....


----------



## Thundercat (Mar 2, 2021)

I have MPS 3. Not sure if it’s worth upgrading to v4...is RX 8 that big of a deal?


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## IFM (Mar 2, 2021)

Well I just sent them a message asking if the perpetual licenses will go away and/or if those products will still be developed. At this point, I am not hopeful so I hesitate to update to MPS4 from 3 till I know. Mainly since down the road I'll be moving to an M1 Mac. I'd rather look at other options now.


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## easyrider (Mar 2, 2021)

IFM said:


> Well I just sent them a message asking if the perpetual licenses will go away and/or if those products will still be developed. At this point, I am not hopeful so I hesitate to update to MPS4 from 3 till I know. Mainly since down the road I'll be moving to an M1 Mac. I'd rather look at other options now.


Upgrade to MP4 is $126 this is a no brainier....but are sellers getting rid of all the licences due to the closure of the perpetual....

please post back after you get a reply from Izotope...


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## easyrider (Mar 2, 2021)

Can I still buy the plug-in outright to get a license?​You can buy any of our existing products separately if you wish. However, the added benefits of the subscription are exclusive to the subscription.









Memberships and Subscription FAQ


General Questions What is different about a “Pro” version of an iZotope product? The “Pro” label indicates the subscription version of an iZotope product. “Pro” products will be receiving additio...




support.izotope.com


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## IFM (Mar 2, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Can I still buy the plug-in outright to get a license?​You can buy any of our existing products separately if you wish. However, the added benefits of the subscription are exclusive to the subscription.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. However, it was ambiguous if they were still going to develop and release the perpetual licenses or if this was the last hurrah.


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## easyrider (Mar 2, 2021)

IFM said:


> Thanks. However, it was ambiguous if they were still going to develop and release the perpetual licenses or if this was the last hurrah.


Am glad you read it that way too....it’s not clear is it?


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## Technostica (Mar 2, 2021)

The more I look at the details the more I think they've lost the plot.


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## IgneousOne (Mar 2, 2021)

Not for me. I have RX7 and Ozone 8 and didn't feel the need to upgrade from them and I have to say there isn't much to tempt me to go for this subscription thing.


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## nightjar (Mar 2, 2021)

This sentence from iZotope's FAQ bothers me the most:

_The products in Music Production Suite 4 will not receive the same updates and enhancements as the “Pro” versions......._

This clearly tells us that the purchased versions of iZotope products will be inferior to the subscription versions (Pro). It's one thing to have a subscription include bonus educational content.. but to have the application itself be different? That is a terrible policy going forward.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 2, 2021)

nightjar said:


> It's one thing to have a subscription include bonus educational content.. but to have the application itself be different? That is a terrible policy going forward.


I think that this is the main issue. It might indeed be a terrible policy going forward, but it might also be inevitable.


----------



## nightjar (Mar 2, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> I think that this is the main issue. It might indeed be a terrible policy going forward, but it might also be inevitable.


No..it's NOT inevitable. iZotope could follow the path that many other companies offer. Customers can chose to either purchase or subscribe and the products themselves will be IDENTICAL. A subscription offers extra content as an INCENTIVE to join.... These other companies do not CRIPPLE the non-subscription product as a PUNISHMENT to those who choose to purchase.

How PreSonus offers their Sphere subscription is excellent.


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## easyrider (Mar 2, 2021)

nightjar said:


> Customers can chose to either purchase or subscribe and the products themselves will be IDENTICAL.




Music Production Suite 4 is still available for purchase from our webstore, however it does not contain the same products as Music Production Suite Pro. The products in Music Production Suite 4 will not receive the same updates and enhancements as the “Pro” versions,









Memberships and Subscription FAQ


General Questions What is different about a “Pro” version of an iZotope product? The “Pro” label indicates the subscription version of an iZotope product. “Pro” products will be receiving additio...




support.izotope.com


----------



## rrichard63 (Mar 2, 2021)

nightjar said:


> No..it's NOT inevitable. iZotope could follow the path that many other companies offer. Customers can chose to either purchase or subscribe and the products themselves will be IDENTICAL. A subscription offers extra content as an INCENTIVE to join.... These other companies do not CRIPPLE the non-subscription product as a PUNISHMENT to those who choose to purchase.
> 
> How PreSonus offers their Sphere subscription is excellent.


I'm afraid I think it will be the other way around. Presonus and other developers will eventually follow the precedent set by iZotope.


----------



## IFM (Mar 2, 2021)

Clarity from Izotope


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Thanks for reaching out to iZotope Customer Care.
> 
> We appreciate the feedback! There is currently no plan to discontinue perpetual licenses of iZotope products. If this plan changes, we will proactively communicate about it.


----------



## Pier (Mar 2, 2021)

I'm ok with subscriptions on principle, but I don't know, $25 per month just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it would make more sense for a mixing mastering engineer.



robgb said:


> I was a hardcore, twenty year Adobe Photoshop user. I now use Affinity Photo, currently on sale for about $30 (I believe). It pretty much does everything PS can do and some of it a lot better. I bought it a year or so ago and haven't looked back.


Affinity Photo is great. I've had it since it was released years ago.

Affinity Designer on the other hand is still missing fundamental features and is unusable for me. Eg: users have been demanding isolation mode for 7 years now. For some reason Sarif doesn't want to implement it.


----------



## José Herring (Mar 2, 2021)

Pier said:


> I'm ok with subscriptions on principle, but I don't know, $25 per month just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> Maybe it would make more sense for a mixing mastering engineer.
> 
> ...


Can't imagine that this will be successful. But, I'm not in this business. 

Been using Ozone since version 3. I'll be moving on to other stuff now. The only way we have to fight this trend is with our wallets.


----------



## Geoff Grace (Mar 2, 2021)

Here's my bottom line:

It doesn't matter what iZotope offers in its subscription plans because I'm not going to subscribe.

If they continue to offer products for sale, then I'll buy—if the product offers something I need at an affordable price.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## X-Bassist (Mar 2, 2021)

HeliaVox said:


> They do say that the Pro versions will eventually be getting updates that will not be in the non-subscription versions of the software.
> 
> So there you have it.


Izotope regularly adds new modules, so yes, some new modules may be added to the subscription that are not in the current suite, but that's true of any levels/releases they do (standard vs. advanced...)

THey have always let me use Ozone 5, even when I updated to Ozone 8, so I expect my RX7 Advanced will last me a while (and I got it on a serious discount). I expect more companies to come up with competing products, if some modules are only available as a subscription I'll just get it elsewhere. I think they know that, and therefore will offer direct purchase for years to come.

Personally I don't mind buying modules individually, considering many sales are 50% off, the bundles aren't as great a deal as they used to be. Just wait for a big sale. Like Komplete, I'd rather just buy what I want, even if it costs a little more. Saves me SSD space and having too look through a long list of plugins or instuments to find what I need.


----------



## Technostica (Mar 2, 2021)

X-Bassist said:


> Izotope regularly adds new modules, so yes, some new modules may be added to the subscription that are not in the current suite, but that's true of any levels/releases they do (standard vs. advanced...)



The Suite version 4 has a lot more software than both subscription packages combined.
The only difference software wise between the two packages is that one has VocalSynth and the other has RX.
If you want both you are out of luck via subscription unless you buy both at $45 per month.

Suite is currently $340 via some resellers whereas Music Production Suite Pro is $300 for the year.
Unless you value the extras at maybe $200 per year I can't see the deal here.

This is the oddest subscription service I have ever seen.
Did they get the intern drunk on Friday lunchtime and then get them to draw up the plan by the end of work?
Crazy.


----------



## nightjar (Mar 2, 2021)

easyrider said:


> Music Production Suite 4 is still available for purchase from our webstore, however it does not contain the same products as Music Production Suite Pro. The products in Music Production Suite 4 will not receive the same updates and enhancements as the “Pro” versions,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Correct.. this problem is what I am also stating... however I gave an alternate example of how it could/should be.


----------



## nightjar (Mar 2, 2021)

IFM said:


> Clarity from Izotope


Nope.. no clarity at all. So they'll continue to offer stand alone "purchasable versions" of their products.. but they have stated that these versions will not have the same updates and enhancements as the subscription versions. Only clarity here is this is NOT truly offering the same product in both methods.


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## Polkasound (Mar 2, 2021)

nightjar said:


> Only clarity here is this is NOT truly offering the same product in both methods.


Subscribers will get regular updates, but if I had to guess, the only way purchasers will be able to get their product updated is to wait for Izotope to release a major revision, and then re-purchase the full product.


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## IFM (Mar 2, 2021)

nightjar said:


> Nope.. no clarity at all. So they'll continue to offer stand alone "purchasable versions" of their products.. but they have stated that these versions will not have the same updates and enhancements as the subscription versions. Only clarity here is this is NOT truly offering the same product in both methods.


Seems clear to me. They are just simply including more fluff in the subscription which I don't care about.


----------



## rrichard63 (Mar 2, 2021)

We are all getting different impressions from the wording of iZotope's FAQ entry. That suggests to me that they are tip toeing around some facts that they're not willing to lie about but don't want us to fully understand either.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Mar 2, 2021)

It's worth asking why these companies are suddenly moving to a sub model.

Is it (a) Because they're rich and want to be richer or (b) Because the market is saturated, no-one is buying this stuff any more and the company account spreadsheets are looking depressing?

I'd love to know, because if it's (b) I could probably accept or at least understand the need for the subscription model. After all, if we want nice things, we have to pay for it more than once every 5 years.


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## easyrider (Mar 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> After all, if we want nice things, we have to pay for it more than once every 5 years.


why?

I have a Martin Acoustic...it’s a rare item, sounds incredible and I paid for it once.


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## José Herring (Mar 2, 2021)

easyrider said:


> why?
> 
> I have a Martin Acoustic...it’s a rare item, sounds incredible and I paid for it once.


Precisely my thought.


----------



## Alex Fraser (Mar 2, 2021)

easyrider said:


> why?
> 
> I have a Martin Acoustic...it’s a rare item, sounds incredible and I paid for it once.


That’s a very different business model and you know it. 😅

I don’t like subs either. I’m just playing naughty devils advocate.

If I was a software developer and kept reading forum post such as _“I’ll wait until the next 50 percent sale”_ or _“I last brought v3 of the plugin and I’m still using it 6 years later. When are they updating it for the new OS? I'll be annoyed if it's a chargeable update”_ ...I might consider a subs model too.

I mean, I get that subs are annoying and not always customer friendly. But from the other side...the company who writes the FTP program I use recently announced a move to a sub-like model. At first, I "got the hump" about it before realising that I've been using the program every day for 4 years and last paid the company about £30 for the program. Good for me, but what about the software dev?

If my software company was on the ropes, I might throw the dice on a last gasp sub model too.
Of course, if the Izotope move is all about the $$ and nothing else, then they deserve all the blowback they get.


----------



## Pier (Mar 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> It's worth asking why these companies are suddenly moving to a sub model.
> 
> Is it (a) Because they're rich and want to be richer or (b) Because the market is saturated, no-one is buying this stuff any more and the company account spreadsheets are looking depressing?
> 
> I'd love to know, because if it's (b) I could probably accept or at least understand the need for the subscription model. After all, if we want nice things, we have to pay for it more than once every 5 years.


I've always wondered if companies like Izotope make sales so frequently because they've found out they actually win more money by selling more discounted products, or because people don't buy if products aren't on sale.


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## JonS (Mar 2, 2021)

No interest in subscription models for any kind of software.


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## Alex Fraser (Mar 2, 2021)

Pier said:


> I've always wondered if companies like Izotope make sales so frequently because they've found out they actually win more money by selling more discounted products, or because people don't buy if products aren't on sale.


Both, I think.

I can only comment from my own experience of selling online, but there's a core group of customers who will only buy in a sale. There's enough proof on VIC for that I think.

That said, once you go down the "always a sale" route, it's a hard slope to climb out of. Companies who are doing well (e.g Spitfire) have sales too, but much less frequent.


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## nightjar (Mar 2, 2021)

IFM said:


> Seems clear to me. They are just simply including more fluff in the subscription which I don't care about.


Really? Product "updates and enhancements" do not sound like fluff to me.... they sound fundamental to the product's function.

iZotope's own words:

_The products in Music Production Suite 4 will not receive the same updates and enhancements as the “Pro” versions......._


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## jcrosby (Mar 2, 2021)

Pier said:


> I've always wondered if companies like Izotope make sales so frequently because they've found out they actually win more money by selling more discounted products, or because people don't buy if products aren't on sale.


They most certainly are making more money now than ever. Check the crunchbase link below...

It seems pretty clear to me that this isn't about being competitive in a starving or overly competitive marketplace, it's about filling up the coffers... Got to keep those financial partners happy 









iZotope - Crunchbase Company Profile & Funding


iZotope develops technology solutions for audio recording, mixing, broadcasting, and sound designing.




www.crunchbase.com





Here's my theory... They have a base of users who feel dependent on their AI algorithms. (Based on how often I see people saying they 'consult' Neutron/Ozone's AI to compare their own choices against its... So... Now they feel they can market that dependency by selling the idea that their AI can make better decisions than you can... (Which is far from the case if you know what you're doing...)

In reality who knows... But seeing how tech companies tend to use a _dependency_ on tech to exploit the users' sense of dependency that's my theory and I'm sticking to it...


----------



## Alex Fraser (Mar 2, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> They most certainly are making more money now than ever. Check the crunchbase link below...
> 
> It seems pretty clear to me that this isn't about being competitive in a starving or overly competitive marketplace, it's about filling up the coffers... Got to keep those financial partners happy
> 
> ...


Well, there you have it. $$$ in the end.
Will stock up on popcorn for when NI announce a sub to please the new investors too..


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Mar 2, 2021)

Just did some maths. Since I got on the iZotope Music Production ____ train in 2016 (with Music Production Bundle 2, upgraded from Iris, which I got _very_ cheap), I've upgraded every year an a half when there was a convincing sale and a big enough upgrade to warrant moving. Including the cost to buy in in the first place, I have spent an average of 148 USD per year (or a bit over $12 per month). 

I am seriously considering upgrading to MPS 4 now for $125 through JRRshop, which would improve my already substantial holdings by Neoverb, RX8, and Stutter Edit 2, along with another year of Groove3, which was really helpful when I needed to learn how to synch Logic to picture last year, and which will be imminently useful again in teaching me to use the wealth of uhe synths I just bought in December.

If I get another year and a half before they convince me to upgrade again, my overall average will be down to $10.71 per month, and if I never upgrade again, that average will continue to fall with every additional month I add to the denominator. I feel like this is a pretty solid deal. Plus, I get to keep using the software even if I decide never to pay iZotope again, which is not true of the "Pro" subscription. 

Also, the year of Groove3 would cost $100 by itself.

Whenever I get grumpy about how expensive it all seems, I go clean up some audio with RX and immediately remember that this software is _magic_.


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## rrichard63 (Mar 2, 2021)

jacobthestupendous said:


> ... along with another year of Groove3 ...


Maybe not. When I upgraded from MPS 3 to MPS 4, they gave me the same Groove3 voucher code they had given me the time before, and it didn't work the second time. If I recall correctly, you used to get a new year of Groove3 with each upgrade. But I don't think you do any more. At least I didn't.


----------



## jacobthestupendous (Mar 2, 2021)

rrichard63 said:


> Maybe not. When I upgraded from MPS 3 to MPS 4, they gave me the same Groove3 voucher code they had given me the time before, and it didn't work the second time. If I recall correctly, you used to get a new year of Groove3 with each upgrade. But I don't think you do any more. At least I didn't.


That's disappointing.

And it seems wrong. I'm not seeing any fine print that would indicate that. Did you talk to anyone from support about it?


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> Well, there you have it. $$$ in the end.
> Will stock up on popcorn for when NI announce a sub to please the new investors too..


I sure hope this revelation — that businesses are in business to make money — doesn't come as a shock to anyone here. The world of business is not a Hallmark Christmas movie.


----------



## Thundercat (Mar 2, 2021)

nightjar said:


> This sentence from iZotope's FAQ bothers me the most:
> 
> _The products in Music Production Suite 4 will not receive the same updates and enhancements as the “Pro” versions......._
> 
> This clearly tells us that the purchased versions of iZotope products will be inferior to the subscription versions (Pro). It's one thing to have a subscription include bonus educational content.. but to have the application itself be different? That is a terrible policy going forward.


Makes it sound like they will let their non-pro products die an ignominious death...


----------



## rrichard63 (Mar 2, 2021)

jacobthestupendous said:


> That's disappointing.
> 
> And it seems wrong. I'm not seeing any fine print that would indicate that. Did you talk to anyone from support about it?


I agree that it's not documented. I thought about raising the issue with them but decided not to. I think I was just too busy then to spend time on it.


----------



## jcrosby (Mar 2, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> I sure hope this revelation — that businesses are in business to make money — doesn't come as a shock to anyone here. The world of business is not a Hallmark Christmas movie.


I don't think that's a shock to anyone. However there's been a pretty common mythology floating around VIC (and GS, and probably all of the other audio forums) for a while that companies who run fire sales like Izotope are doing it because fierce competition has somehow forced them to have to lower prices just to _keep up_, when in reality these aggressive sales models have given them more leverage than ever to roll out a subscription model where the ramifications are totally vague, if not intentionally manipulative.

Penalizing the perpetual license buyer by deliberately restricting their access to updates (the 1st model of its kind that I'm aware of in the music software sphere) is hardly subtle in terms of it being designed to manipulate people's purchasing habits.

As the quote goes... '_There are only two industries that call their customers 'users': the illegal drug trade and software'_. (Tufte)


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 3, 2021)

jcrosby said:


> Penalizing the perpetual license buyer by deliberately restricting their access to updates (the 1st model of its kind that I'm aware of in the music software sphere) is hardly subtle in terms of it being designed to manipulate people's purchasing habits.


Manipulation of purchasing habits is business strategy 101. Obviously no business is going to come right out and say "We're shaking things up in order to get more money from your hands into ours," but in a free market, it's fully within the business's right to try to manipulate how their customers spend their money.

Also, access to plugin updates is not an entitlement; it's a privilege, so no one is being penalized here. I would think that if a Windows security update broke a plugin, Izotope would provide a fix at no charge to all purchasers, but it's fully within Izotope's right to control access to enhancements and additional content.


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK (Mar 4, 2021)

Thundercat said:


> Agreed. They update their software every 5 minutes - including constantly tweaking the UI, which is confusing, but I don't think it's appreciably better than 5 years ago. As long as they are fat and happy they have little incentive on their sub model. I feel like sub models benefit the companies way more than the regular users.





robgb said:


> I was a hardcore, twenty year Adobe Photoshop user. I now use Affinity Photo, currently on sale for about $30 (I believe). It pretty much does everything PS can do and some of it a lot better. I bought it a year or so ago and haven't looked back.


I can understand this with Adobe though. The Suite used to be £1,500
With my sub model of £31/m it works out to cost me just over £300 annually.
Since it used to update often, with costs, this makes sense to me.

Not to mention the storage thrown into the package and tutorials thare supported and updated by the company themselves.

As someone who has a career alongside music, I have no issues with subs. I have PA sub, EastWest and Adobe.


After University I made a decision that unless, I was going to work in games music or trailer music libraries, I was not going to have this as a primary source of income. The Industry is exciting, but also highly uncertain. Fortunately I was advised to go into IT and have music as a passion that I hold to going forward.


----------



## davidson (Mar 4, 2021)

What I dislike about subscriptions is the fact current customers aren't compensated in some way for what they've already bought. For example, someone who owns komplete 13 collectors edition shouldn't have to pay the same as someone who owns nothing from NI. I know this is theoretical and NI haven't announced anything, by going from past experience that's the way it plays out.


----------



## AudioLoco (Mar 4, 2021)

Hey, I will subscribe to every single plug in company once all my clients subscribe to MY services.
I want x money every months from every company and private clients who ever used my services, even on an hourly basis, I will accept only subs.
Thank you.

These people live in dreamland...


----------



## pondinthestream (Mar 4, 2021)

Polkasound said:


> Manipulation of purchasing habits is business strategy 101. Obviously no business is going to come right out and say "We're shaking things up in order to get more money from your hands into ours," but in a free market, it's fully within the business's right to try to manipulate how their customers spend their money.
> 
> Also, access to plugin updates is not an entitlement; it's a privilege, so no one is being penalized here. I would think that if a Windows security update broke a plugin, Izotope would provide a fix at no charge to all purchasers, but it's fully within Izotope's right to control access to enhancements and additional content.


There are no free markets, thats a myth. The relatjonship is completely asymmetrical


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 4, 2021)

pondinthestream said:


> There are no free markets, thats a myth. The relatjonship is completely asymmetrical


Izotope sells their goods in the same supply and demand market as all other developers, where the fate of their business is determined by consumers voting with their wallets.


----------



## vitocorleone123 (Mar 4, 2021)

Most every software company would move to a subscription model if they can get away with it. Predictable, continuous income is a HUGE thing for business.


----------



## SupremeFist (Mar 4, 2021)

I don't like subscriptions, but I would actually subscribe for Ozone + TBC alone if/when my current version (something something Advanced 9) stops working on my system...


----------



## robgb (Mar 4, 2021)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> I can understand this with Adobe though. The Suite used to be £1,500
> With my sub model of £31/m it works out to cost me just over £300 annually.
> Since it used to update often, with costs, this makes sense to me.
> 
> ...


I paid $600 for Photoshop CS6. Right after that they went subscription and I refused to do it. Used CS6 for several years before discovering Affinity Photo. Never felt I needed any upgrades until Affinity came along. Going subscription is a cash grab. None of the upgrades is worth $300 a year. I paid $25 for Affinity on sale and they've already upgraded multiple times for free. It does nearly everything Photoshop does and does it well. And the learning curve was practically zero.


----------



## emilio_n (Mar 4, 2021)

robgb said:


> I paid $600 for Photoshop CS6. Right after that they went subscription and I refused to do it. Used CS6 for several years before discovering Affinity Photo. Never felt I needed any upgrades until Affinity came along. Going subscription is a cash grab. None of the upgrades is worth $300 a year. I paid $25 for Affinity on sale and they've already upgraded multiple times for free. It does nearly everything Photoshop does and does it well. And the learning curve was practically zero.


I will do the same if exist a real replacement for Lightroom.


----------



## Shad0wLandsUK (Mar 5, 2021)

robgb said:


> I paid $600 for Photoshop CS6. Right after that they went subscription and I refused to do it. Used CS6 for several years before discovering Affinity Photo. Never felt I needed any upgrades until Affinity came along. Going subscription is a cash grab. None of the upgrades is worth $300 a year. I paid $25 for Affinity on sale and they've already upgraded multiple times for free. It does nearly everything Photoshop does and does it well. And the learning curve was practically zero.


Ok, I am sure in that context it makes sense.
But what about those who need a replacement for Premiere Pro, Audition, After Effects etc.

You get over 30 products with the package. I only pay £30/m for all of this, not one app.
So for me, it is a worthwhile investment.


----------



## robgb (Mar 5, 2021)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> But what about those who need a replacement for Poremiere Pro, Audition, After Effects etc.


Go no further than DaVinci Resolve, which has all three built in, is free, and is an amazing program. So amazing, in fact, that a lot of people are dumping Premiere for DaVinci. And why shouldn't they, since Hollywood studios are using it as well (particularly the Fusion section, which is like After Effects on steroids). Like I said, it's free, but there is also a paid version that has added features. Most people will be just fine with the free version, however.






DaVinci Resolve 18 | Blackmagic Design


Professional video editing, color correction, visual effects and audio post production all in a single application. Free and paid versions for Mac, Windows and Linux.



www.blackmagicdesign.com


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## robgb (Mar 5, 2021)

emilio_n said:


> I will do the same if exist a real replacement for Lightroom.




or









Capture One Pro photo editing software


The gold standard of photo editing. Trusted by pros. Render the highest-quality images and edit better photos with precision tools and smart shortcuts. Try it free!




www.captureone.com


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## storyteller (Mar 5, 2021)

Shad0wLandsUK said:


> Ok, I am sure in that context it makes sense.
> But what about those who need a replacement for Poremiere Pro, Audition, After Effects etc.
> 
> You get over 30 products with the package. I only pay £30/m for all of this, not one app.
> So for me, it is a worthwhile investment.


I second the Davinci Resolve recommendation and the Affinity products. Affinity is now at v1.9 so I am not sure if they will do a paid update to v2 or keep the one-time-purchase model... but I wouldn't be upset about having to pay for a v2. After all, v1.x has lasted me for years and been stellar. As for Davinci Resolve, it is an incredible piece of software that Blackmagic continues to innovate in leaps and bounds. After Effects is the only outlier with Adobe products since plugins like RedGiant's Trapcode Suite only work in AE. But the need for that plugin suite will likely fade the more people work with fusion in Resolve. Just my opinion of course.


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## emilio_n (Mar 5, 2021)

robgb said:


> or
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really try to move to Capture One several times and it has a lot of cool things that Lightroom should have, but the catalogue management is not still ready. Maybe because I was using Lightroom during the last year but I can get the workflow.

I never used On1 so maybe is a good moment to try now that I have less photography job.


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Mar 5, 2021)

robgb said:


> or
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting on this one as I have the Monogram controller, that has support for this...
I use the Premiere Pro for either conversion of videos, editing Church Concerts, Dramas etc. or just learning.

I use Audition, but then I also have RX 8 Standard now, had previous versions before.
We currently use the Final Cut Pro 90 day trial they are giving to everyone for editing as the others say they don't like Premiere Pro (plans to build a dedicated Windows Editing rig though here on AMD Ryzen)

Lots to think about, thanks for the tips @robgb


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## nightjar (Mar 27, 2021)

What might be more palatable would be a tiered subscription plan:

Essential Bundle: $5/month

Standard Bundle: $10/month

Advanced Bundle: $15/month

Pro Bundle: $25/month

Higher tiers would broaden the feature set within each of the bundled apps.. building upon the lower tier.

And the the Pro version is full featured for EVERY product they offer.

All of these being no contract and letting you upgrade or downgrade as desired.

If you downgrade your plan, all previous projects will open and run just fine, but you can't edit anything that requires a higher tier version... And even if you stop your subscription altogether... the plug-ins will run, but not edit/save.

This would let you upgrade to a higher level if desired when you are finishing a project..

The educational content is the same in all tiers.


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## Michael Antrum (Mar 27, 2021)

Companies want subs, as it gives them a relatively stable cashflow, and they don't have to innovate too much. Before subscription, most people upgraded Adobe because the needed to remain version compatible with other people, not because of the new features. This gave them the leverage to impose subscription on their customers - whilst all the other software vendors watched to see what would happen, and wondering how they could make this model work for them.

Like many others, subscription software is not for me. So I'll use my Izotope software until it doesn't work anymore. And then I'll move to the Izotope equivalent of Affinity.

In many industries, like photography, people get so tied up in the latest technology, but some of the best work ever created was done with heart and talent, rather than the latest doohickey.

I think in this modern world, this subscription thing is going to become a car crash for those that don't dominate their sector.

I don't really care about Izotope, they can do what they want, I'll use alternatives when the packages I have won't work anymore.

What I'm really concerned about is Kontakt - I have a lot of money tied up in Kontakt libraries. There had better be a final non-sub version of Kontakt that is M1 Mac native before they go subscription, because I have no doubt whatsoever that's where they are going....


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## nightjar (Mar 27, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> Companies want subs, as it gives them a relatively stable cashflow, and they don't have to innovate too much.


The tiered approach I suggested would certainly have them innovate to get people to move to higher tiers.

Plus, competition from outside their ecosystem will push innovation too.


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## Thundercat (Mar 27, 2021)

Michael Antrum said:


> In many industries, like photography, people get so tied up in the latest technology, but some of the best work ever created was done with heart and talent, rather the latest doohickey.


^^THIS^^

I've written my best compositions with pen and paper. Hell sometimes just making shit up at the piano. Then I go into my fancy DAW and pretty it up...think of Moz and Beeth; we'd have nothing if not for the ingenuity of the human mind to create what a DAWn and fancy libs never could.

Sometimes I think I need to stop using my DAW when I want to create.


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## Thundercat (Mar 27, 2021)

nightjar said:


> What might be more palatable would be a tiered subscription plan:
> 
> Essential Bundle: $5/month
> 
> ...


I think anything over $15/month is too much.

you end up essentially re-buying the same plugins every month, and that’s where ownership and choice come into play. I don’t lease a car. But I can.

both fully paid and subscription versions of all products should be made available, or you are extorting money from your user base.

sure I can use other software, and that’s the only way these companies will listen.

Its sad when money becomes the only operative, And the joy of making tools is lost to profiteering.

while I have an adobe sub because of my work, I still use the same core tools I used 20 years ago. I could use PS 6 quite well.

so I will stick with MPS 3 until I find something better, but not from Izotope.


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## JEPA (Mar 29, 2021)

I think if I save twice this amount I will enter the realms of Fabfilter









The realms of Fabfilter for €419.00(incl. VAT):











FabFilter Shop - Buy FabFilter Total bundle - VST VST3 AU AAX AudioSuite


Purchase the FabFilter Total bundlein the official FabFilter web shop, secure, fast and easy.




www.fabfilter.com


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## Igor Sena (Apr 19, 2021)

Love iZotope products and have bought most of them but with the introduction of "PRO", the advanced products that i , along with many people, spent hundreds or thousands are going to get pushed to the side in terms of support and most importantly, features.

I understand that companies need money to survive and i can understand the "PRO" version having a few better workflow features, more presets, etc but when you start adding features that should be in the advanced version as well just so people pay a subscription i can´t support that. This to me smells like a gaming industry type of strategy. This is not the way you treat loyal costumers.

And last but not least, i hope this isn´t the beggining of an Adobe type of deal when in the future if you want use iZotope´s products you need to pay for a subscription and i also hope the products i bought dont get support cut off because of that.

Sad to see, specially when you pay hard earned money instead of pirating in order to support companies who make great products.
This, along with the fact that when you ask any question you get an answer pretty fast and they solve your issue(until then I never had any type of complaint about support and their license transfer is the most fair for both parties and something every plugin and sample library developer should follow) but when you politely ask some clarification about the fact that you bought music production suite 3 in recent time and music production suite 4 comes out but your loyalty discount is ridiculous you don't get any replies has left a bad taste in my mouth. I guess greed always ruins great things. But as with anything , at the end of the day, if we don't pay for the subscriptions they have to change that. The problem is, like in the gaming industry, alot of inexperienced people out there who rely solely on their plugins or people who can afford to pay thousands of dollars over the years will still pay the subscription and mess things up for everyone else.


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## el-bo (Apr 19, 2021)

Igor Sena said:


> I understand that companies need money to survive


Exactly!



Igor Sena said:


> Sad to see, specially when you pay hard earned money instead of pirating in order to support companies who make great products.


Not sure we need to pat people on the back for not pirating software 



Igor Sena said:


> The problem is, like in the gaming industry, alot of inexperienced people out there who rely solely on their plugins or people who can afford to pay thousands of dollars over the years will still pay the subscription and mess things up for everyone else.


None of us know how this will all end up. I'm in the camp that believes that this subscription model will eventually implode. Unless companies have a monopoly or G.O.A.T products e.g RX, there'll come a point where people will start adding up their 'Only $20-a-month' outgoings, and realise that as much as they acknowledge that "companies need money to survive", these companies are going to have to survive without them/me/us, and either move towards a much more tightly-curated set of plugins or just seek out all the other developers that will still be selling their plugins, piecemeal.


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## Igor Sena (Apr 19, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Exactly!
> 
> 
> Not sure we need to pat people on the back for not pirating software
> ...


=) I´m not saying we need to pat people in the back for not pirating but i guess in the minimum you should be appreciated as a costumer when you choose to support a company, despite many people pirating their stuff, which lets be honest, in this day and age would be easy to do. Hate to give this comparison but when you´re a good person you don´t need people to pat you on the back but it does feel good when you know you are appreciated for doing an effort to be a good friend, etc when most of the world is turned to the inside of themselves. But i do see your point.

I also know when you buy software you are not entitled to enjoy free support forever but again, it makes you want to support that company when they lead by generosity(even its a business tactic) and go the extra mile to make sure your plugins work. That makes me want to support them more and more, even with products i know i´m not going to use that much or are not worth the price tag. To me, that´s being a professional, although i don´t know much about the costs of making sure plugins work in everyone´s DAW/System and one could argue that once someone hires me to do a song for them, i´m not obliged to make sure that song works forever(even if software is different from a song) so maybe i am also being a hypocrite lol

Obviously like you said, we don´t know where this is going and at this point i´m only speculating but the more i read about it; the more i see iZotope´s response, the more i get worried.

I don´t solely rely on their products and i can always transfer them which i love about iZotope, because in my opinion they have the most fair license transfer policy for both parties and one that all devs should have, but i have been through alot of sacrifice to support them. I didn´t do it with an altruistic intention or anything; also, nobody pointed a gun at my head to do it and yes, they supported me back by providing great tools that allowed me to continue to do my job and to purchase more of them. Plus, up until the point that they left me what a sour taste in my mouth they have also provided awesome support, but i think you know what i mean, or at least i hope you see my point(i´m portuguese so i might not be expressing myself in the most correct way).
My point is that i would just hate if my plugins stopped being supported or lacking features because i´m not a subscriber. I would just be happy if they came out and said all the people who purchased their plugins will have continued support. Again, i don´t know the costs of doing that, but it would be the right thing to do. I still wouldn´t subscribe but at least i would appreciate the gesture and wouldn´t be as bothered by their decision, if that ends up being their decision.

The whole thing smells very gaming industry like to me or for the lack of a better word, shady.

Let´s hope you are right about your theory, and by the way, i´m on the musicians/music producers/audio engineers/composers, side. I think when certain decisions are made, either by companies or by us, the consumer, it affects everyone in the long run. At the end of the day, touching on what you mentioned, other plugins devs(in this case, competition) and "voting" with the wallet are and will always be key, because sadly, it´s the only language companies - or maybe investors is the right word for this situation - speak.

All the best, el-bo.


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