# MIDI Controller for Orchestration? Tablet Peripherals?



## onfireee (Oct 28, 2020)

Hey! I'm constantly seeing composers that i look up to with midi controller fader consoles to control expression, modulation, vibrato, etc. What are some MIDI controllers that you all use for these purposes? I draw all my info in like a total n00b, and I just think it's time for me to grow up and hasten my workflow.

Also, bonus question: Who of you incorporates using a tablet into your workflow? Could anyone explain the benefits of that? Thanks in advance!


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## scoringdreams (Oct 29, 2020)

For faders, I have a trusty NakedBoards MC-8, which works well for all my CC needs.

For tablets, I use an iPad on SideCar and sometimes the Apple Pencil to draw my Dynamic / Expression curves if I need that level of fidelity.


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## chimuelo (Oct 29, 2020)

scoringdreams said:


> For faders, I have a trusty NakedBoards MC-8, which works well for all my CC needs.
> 
> For tablets, I use an iPad on SideCar and sometimes the Apple Pencil to draw my Dynamic / Expression curves if I need that level of fidelity.



Very affordable way to add controls to your favorite keybed.
Add a Casio PX-5S and a laptop, some 24 way driver IEMs and Score anywhere instantly.

Awesomeness.


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## onfireee (Oct 29, 2020)

scoringdreams said:


> For faders, I have a trusty NakedBoards MC-8, which works well for all my CC needs.
> 
> For tablets, I use an iPad on SideCar and sometimes the Apple Pencil to draw my Dynamic / Expression curves if I need that level of fidelity.



Oooooooo! The nakedboard looks promising. I never thought of drawing in curves with a pencil either. That's pretty amazing. What DAW do you use though? I'm wondering if Logic Pro X would support that feature. I find their automation to be kinda clunky.


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## onfireee (Oct 29, 2020)

Also, can anyone identify the MIDI controller here in Ramin Djawadi's setup? Would also be interested in understanding the purpose of the device in the top right, as well as what the program/purpose of the iPad app is?


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## chimuelo (Oct 29, 2020)

Looks like the old Peavey 16 fader box from the last century.
A Behringer BCR-2000 and Peavey was all you needed in the dark ages.


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## Gerbil (Oct 29, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> Looks like the old Peavey 16 fader box from the last century.
> A Behringer BCR-2000 and Peavey was all you needed in the dark ages.


That's what I still use.


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## onfireee (Oct 29, 2020)

chimuelo said:


> Looks like the old Peavey 16 fader box from the last century.



You're defintely correct! haha. Good eye. I'm looking for something that can trigger articulation changes too I guess, so it caught my eye.


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## scoringdreams (Oct 29, 2020)

onfireee said:


> Oooooooo! The nakedboard looks promising. I never thought of drawing in curves with a pencil either. That's pretty amazing. What DAW do you use though? I'm wondering if Logic Pro X would support that feature. I find their automation to be kinda clunky.



Yep Logic Pro X


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## jaketanner (Oct 29, 2020)

For the value I don't think anything beats the Korg Nano Control MKII. It has small faders yes, but everything can be assigned CC commands...and the plus side of smaller faders for me, is that I can move multiple faders up and down with one hand quite easily, and I like having tighter movement controls between dynamics.


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## awaey (Oct 29, 2020)

I use ( BCF2000 and AKAI MPK 88 and MPK 61) they do the job very will ....i use ipad 2 with cubase ,,,


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## RoyBatty (Oct 30, 2020)

If you are not opposed to a bit of simple coding/scripting, OpenStageControl is fantastic. You start it on your main computer and any device with a browser can sync and use the interface. It uses HTML/CSS for the interface, so it is great for responsive design across different devices.


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## Bear Market (Oct 30, 2020)

onfireee said:


> Would also be interested in understanding the purpose of the device in the top right, as well as what the program/purpose of the iPad app is?



The device in the top right is a monitor controller I gather. A Grace Design m906 by the looks of it.

I have also been down the rabbit hole of finding a midi fader controller. I wanted at least 8 faders, minimum 60mm, and a display showing cc values as faders are moved. After doing some research I concluded that the following options would fit the bill:

- JL Cooper FaderMaster Pro
- Peavy PC1600
- Kenton Control Freak

I got a FaderMaster on eBay, but found that the long-throw faders actually were too long for my taste. So the search continued. And after a loooong time of monitoring large and small online market places I finally came across a Control Freak on Reverb. I bought it instantly and I've been super happy with it.


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## JJP (Oct 30, 2020)

I started using an SL Mixface a few months ago and like it. I like that it can switch between DAW and MIDI control at the press of a button. The faders could be a bit longer, but they are quite good for a compact fader bank that fits on the desktop or keyboard.


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 30, 2020)

I still use a BCF2000, whihc has been an absolute tank since I bought it new near Tottenham Court Road back when Victoria was still on the throne. I have a portable palete gear rig too.

But I am seriously looking at picking up a second hand Avid Artist Mix as I like the idea of motorised CC's thorugh EUCON.

However, there are other priorities at the moment, and I have just disgraced myself buying a fair few Cinesample libraries for Staffpad, which are (unfortuantely for my wallet) currently on sale.....


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## onfireee (Oct 31, 2020)

While we're identifying peripherals, can anyone identify this and its purpose?


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## Michael Antrum (Oct 31, 2020)

It's an Elgato StremDeck XL, and its a great bit of kit.

Each button has a colour OLED screen so you can make it display what you like, and then you can bind to to key commands.

I use it in Cubase and Dorico extensively....


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## JJP (Oct 31, 2020)

Oh, StreamDeck! I have two of them and use them extensively in Finale, ProTools, my browser. Pair it up with a macro program like Keyboard Maestro on Mac OS and you can automate all kinds of things.


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## justthere (Nov 1, 2020)

ComposerTools Pro for Lemur on an iPad is great for orchestrating. You make presets for all of the instruments you use, and you can import expression maps to it (even if you don't use Cubase). Each preset has a ridiculous number of customizable faders, a multi-touch pad for modulating many things at once, buttons or keys for keyswitching (and they can be set to send anything - notes, UACC controllers or your own variation, or program changes, and up to three different messages at once - so you can get VSL matrices to respond with a single button. 

Best of all, you can set it up so that when you select a track in your daw, CTPro will recall the preset for the instrument on that daw track, as well as a page that you select within the preset, and even custom default values for controllers if you choose. 

So when I call up Samplemodeling Strings, for example, it recalls a preset with the key switches and three controllers (breath, modulation and sync vibrato to pick three) and with a touch it's three others (on-string attack, attack duration, vibrato delay), or six customizable buttons, or the multitouch controller, or a syncable LFO mapped to any controller, or one of two custom panels that you can make yourself in Lemur to do whatever you want. 

Also in that same preset, I have another page with 12 customized faders for other parameters (SM Strings are deep), 8 customizable buttons, and four x/y pads. If this were not enough, another page gets me ten tabs that can each have a customized Lemur editor for a specific device that you use, and the last page gets me three things - a grid made to make it easy to send out any midi message at any value; 8 "universal" extra long faders for things you need to control that are not on the MIDI track you are using, like a master fader or groups or what have you; and also a harp page that lets you press pedals and then strum "strings" on the screen, with velocity based on height, and the ability to limit the range of glissandi via sliders on each end. 

Also on every page, there are two pop-ups - a utility pop up with up to 167 customizable buttons for macros you might use (in Cubase I use them to call up track visibility configurations (Ensemble strings, solo strings, modeled woodwinds, orchestral percussion, sketch instruments...this makes managing a massive template utterly simple and elegant), and a "thumb-key" popup, which can house a transport control, or C_Brains (a control surface made for Cubase that handles a plethora of common editing tasks) or any custom Lemur panel you devise or download.

I recommend an iPad Pro for the real estate. It's really amazing - it's changed the way I deal with articulations entirely. And considering that I very often sequence in ProTools (which has pretty limited MIDI and no articulation management other than program changes), CTPro makes it a powerhouse.

And you can always open up GeoShred on the iPad, and control your instruments with that if you are inclined. I sometimes use it for harp as well because I can do scales that a harp couldn't do.

It's at midikinetics.com.

You could also look at Soundflow, which is what you program those Streamdecks with, but it also can generate control surfaces on an iPad. It's deeper as far as what specific Mac or app things it can address directly, but interface-wise is still coming along.


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## mburellmusic (Nov 8, 2020)

I also use Composer Tools Pro and I basically can't work without it any more. I use 2 iPads though, one with Composer Tools resting my keyboard faders and C_brains behind my computer keyboard. I think the main developer also has a background in music composition and it seems he really understands the workflow.


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## justthere (Nov 8, 2020)

He does. I hope he ultimately codes his own app on his own platform. That’s a big ask, though, and it does work like a charm as it is. Though I haven’t updated iOS on that iPad for a long time because Lemur.


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## Alex Fraser (Nov 8, 2020)

I’m experimenting with Touch OSC. It’s fun. I still think the humble mod wheel is best though.


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## OleJoergensen (Nov 15, 2020)

Anyone using Behringer x-touch extender?
Also is it good to have motorised faders to control cc1, cc11 etc or is it better without motor?


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## Michael Antrum (Nov 15, 2020)

I looked at the Behringer X-Touch stuff, but (as far as I know) there is still no software for configuring it for the Mac, which I think is an insane omission for a piece of music hardware.....

I'm looking to replace my BCF2000 that I bought when Victoria was still on the throne, but I've still not found anything to replace it - with the exception of the Icon M platform, but I've heard a few remarks about the build quality.....

For all the comments you hear about Behringer reliability, it has been totally rock solid.....

Maybe a Monogram when they come back into stock ?









Modular Productivity Tool for Creative Pros


Creative Console is the only controller powerful and versatile enough to increase productivity and creativity for photographers, artists, editors, music producers, and any digital creatives.




monogramcc.com





Edit: Just seen the price of them - WOW !


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## OleJoergensen (Nov 16, 2020)

I ordered a MC-8 Nakedboard....
I like it is only faders, small and simple.


https://nakedboards.org/mc8.html


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## onfireee (Nov 16, 2020)

OleJoergensen said:


> I ordered a MC-8 Nakedboard....
> I like it is only faders, small and simple.
> 
> 
> https://nakedboards.org/mc8.html



Let me know when you've got it! I think I might just go the same route.


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## chimuelo (Nov 18, 2020)

Gerbil said:


> That's what I still use.



LASS @ NAMM was demo’d on one of those Peaveys too.
Sometimes less is more.


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## OleJoergensen (Jan 17, 2021)

onfireee said:


> Let me know when you've got it! I think I might just go the same route.


It has been a long waiting. The controller was sent from Moscov the 18th of November. I have not recieved the controller yet but have tracked it and it has arrived Denmark..
I hope to receive it within a week.


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## Paul Jelfs (Jan 17, 2021)

Look at a P1 - it is INSANE the amount of control you can have - Keyswitches, 9 midi CC , 16 pan pots that are 360, 20 buttons which are assignable - thats just in Midi Internal Mode. If you have the DAW, it controls that too - and maps to most VSTs . Also , at least 20 user snapshots, so you can save one setup for SPITFIRE, one for OT etc 

Furthermore, 12 buttons for Macros that you can put in via your pc- i.e. CTRL + ATL + Z or what ever. 

Get one second hand for about £130 UK price. 

Not sure why more folk don't use one. Its faders are only around 50mm, but they are firm and smooth, so fine for CC work. 

Now that does not stop me wanting a Peavey PC1600K - but it does less, has slightly longer faders , but just looks awesome!


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## HeliaVox (Jan 17, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Look at a P1 - it is INSANE the amount of control you can have - Keyswitches, 9 midi CC , 16 pan pots that are 360, 20 buttons which are assignable - thats just in Midi Internal Mode. If you have the DAW, it controls that too - and maps to most VSTs . Also , at least 20 user snapshots, so you can save one setup for SPITFIRE, one for OT etc
> 
> Furthermore, 12 buttons for Macros that you can put in via your pc- i.e. CTRL + ATL + Z or what ever.
> 
> ...


Just be aware that if you're on a Mac, those nifty Macros don't work. It's Apples fault, not Nektars.


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## muratkayi (Jan 17, 2021)

Because most people never consider it for this and even if it is disonctinued: I use my Maschine Jam for this! 8 dual-touch strips and above them a row of buttons you can use for keyswitching. I can easily handle four parameters with one hand and I also use it for X/Y pads on some Kontakt instruments


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## 24dBFS (Jan 17, 2021)

Maybe you could consider a touch screen with buttons and faders that could be assigned to articulation switches, macros, selecting tracks in your template, DAW commands and many, many more...

14bitMIDI - creative controllers


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## justthere (Jan 17, 2021)

24dBFS said:


> Maybe you could consider a touch screen with buttons and faders that could be assigned to articulation switches, macros, selecting tracks in your template, DAW commands and many, many more...
> 
> 14bitMIDI - creative controllers


That’s certainly interesting. And I would say that generally the trade off of slightly-limited customization in favor of more pre-baked and predictable setups (if this is a misconception, please correct me) is a positive thing for those of us who need to get back to work. But I have to say, I have some commitment issues here. 😁

After spending a good amount of time getting Composer Tools Pro going - and I really love what it has done for me, it’s amazing - I’m looking at the gradual heat-death of Lemur. I’m not confident that Liine will somehow step forward with a brilliant new revision of their software, and in my search for a replacement I find that all of these alternate solutions - as brilliant as they are, and powerful statements that they make about the resourcefulness of their creators - seem to come down to at least one piece of software that is kept going by one person in their office at home and putting it up on GitHub. It’s a big ask to accept that vulnerability for the commitment a professional needs to make in setting these up for a large template. Feature-wise Sherlock seems terrific, without a doubt. But what about its future? How can we be certain that any of these platforms for control will last? I’ve been looking at a platform that is based in Python (so it requires Xcode, rt-midi and of course Python) and because those don’t seem to be going away it seems like it might have some staying power, but I could be wrong about that - and it also requires quite a bit of programming, and as far as I can tell lacks the ability to change its visible controls based on the track selected in the DAW, which Sherlock (I think) can do and ComposerTools Pro (I know) can. So I’d like to hear what folks are thinking about this.

As we speak I’m configuring Cubase 11 to respond to TouchOSC buttons that toggle visibility of instrument groups - and it’s true that once that is set up, I could tell any OSC controller to send those commands. And depending on what method one uses to control their DAW one can use many things that aren’t even designed for DAWs. If you create key commands for everything and don’t need CC faders, there is a wealth of remote software that will get you there with varying degrees of elegance. And this approach has its benefits, as it does not require a controller to work - you can just use the key commands if you need to.

But - with respect to 14BitMIDI who address many of these things - I will tell you what I want in a controller (anyone there, Liine?):

Something that works in a browser or an app - really any way you want to do it. Browsers are platform-agnostic.

Lots and lots of pre-built stuff.

I’d like to be able to use faders that look like console faders. Or buttons in lots of styles. Modern, rusty/ancient, or not based on any irl input devices. If my controller is a touch screen I ought to be able to use a banana as a ribbon controller if I want. A truly beautiful and flexible GUI for these things has yet to be made.

I’d like not to have to deal with any of the OSC or coding verbiage at all. No reason to have to input numbers in any form requiring indents or {}>< or anything like that. Because I utterly respect composers who code and coders who compose, but I honestly don’t want to do that at all - I want to say I need this button set to this CC number sending this value. I haven’t seen any instance where doing it using a line of code is empirically better or more efficient. I prefer Learn buttons and pop ups or simple number entry.

I’d like a library of every last command that a DAW does and a key command set that corresponds to it.

And these things take time to make, so they should be paid options. It’s great to have a broad community doing setups for things, but increasingly less common. Its not like the Reaktor community building new instruments all the time - it’s a hazard of the open-source concept: lots of folks needing something done but not contributing, a very few knowledgeable users creating ways to do things but shouldering the community on their own. I’d like to bypass that and just pay for it. I watched a guy make an argument against competing platforms by essentially saying his platform of choice frees someone from what amounts to the tyranny of paying 35 dollars US for something - by obliging them to put hours and hours in. If you know how much per hour you make as a composer, this begins to be ridiculous.

I want something I can make simple edits to on the input device. For a touch-screen app that’s not an issue but for iPad apps it would sure be useful. Just to move a button (or a group of them simultaneously) would be very useful.

Something dumb possibly but that might be useful - I’d like to have an option to click that makes it possible to send a tone when any button is tapped or any fader is pushed or any knob is turned, so that one could mount a vibrating device on a screen for haptic feedback. Imagine twisting a virtual knob and getting the feedback of crossing over detent bumps. Or a slight effect when moving a fader to create the sense of resistance. Or just a soft selectable button click. Why isn’t this being done? Or is it and I don’t know about it?

And one more thing - I’d like an editor that allows me to create multiple buttons/faders/whatever with a specified parameter in an incrementing range. Ten buttons with ten consecutive values of the same CC, or ten faders with consecutive CC’s assigned. Or ten buttons with consecutive keystrokes sent out (command-option-ctrl-shift-A, command-option-ctrl-shift-B, etc.). What I’m trying to avoid is entering things in over and over, or copying a button and then digging for the single parameter that needs to be different.

Curious to hear what folks think.


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## MIDI Kinetics (Jan 18, 2021)

Glad you're enjoying Composer Tools!

I see a lot of people wondering about the future of Lemur. I can assure you, it is most definitely not abandoned. I know this for a fact.

Cheers,
Michael
MIDI Kinetics


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## ltmusic (Jan 21, 2021)

MIDI Kinetics said:


> Glad you're enjoying Composer Tools!
> 
> I see a lot of people wondering about the future of Lemur. I can assure you, it is most definitely not abandoned. I know this for a fact.
> 
> ...


Will we see a new version of Composers tools ?


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## MIDI Kinetics (Jan 21, 2021)

ltmusic said:


> Will we see a new version of Composers tools ?


Of course!


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## Phaedraz (Jan 22, 2021)

justthere said:


> That’s certainly interesting. And I would say that generally the trade off of slightly-limited customization in favor of more pre-baked and predictable setups (if this is a misconception, please correct me) is a positive thing for those of us who need to get back to work. But I have to say, I have some commitment issues here. 😁
> 
> After spending a good amount of time getting Composer Tools Pro going - and I really love what it has done for me, it’s amazing - I’m looking at the gradual heat-death of Lemur. I’m not confident that Liine will somehow step forward with a brilliant new revision of their software, and in my search for a replacement I find that all of these alternate solutions - as brilliant as they are, and powerful statements that they make about the resourcefulness of their creators - seem to come down to at least one piece of software that is kept going by one person in their office at home and putting it up on GitHub. It’s a big ask to accept that vulnerability for the commitment a professional needs to make in setting these up for a large template. Feature-wise Sherlock seems terrific, without a doubt. But what about its future? How can we be certain that any of these platforms for control will last? I’ve been looking at a platform that is based in Python (so it requires Xcode, rt-midi and of course Python) and because those don’t seem to be going away it seems like it might have some staying power, but I could be wrong about that - and it also requires quite a bit of programming, and as far as I can tell lacks the ability to change its visible controls based on the track selected in the DAW, which Sherlock (I think) can do and ComposerTools Pro (I know) can. So I’d like to hear what folks are thinking about this.
> 
> ...


Except for that browser part, I have something coming out later this year that addresses most of the rest. Been working on it for 3 years now. You heard it here first... Expressionist by Digital Expressions.


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## justthere (Jan 22, 2021)

Phaedraz said:


> Except for that browser part, I have something coming out later this year that addresses most of the rest. Been working on it for 3 years now. You heard it here first... Expressionist by Digital Expressions.


Bring it on! 

The reason the browser-based thought is in there is that browsers are universal and scalable. Other than having HTML updated, that represents staying power to me. 

Happy coding.


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## stigc56 (Feb 5, 2021)

Paul Jelfs said:


> Look at a P1 - it is INSANE the amount of control you can have - Keyswitches, 9 midi CC , 16 pan pots that are 360, 20 buttons which are assignable - thats just in Midi Internal Mode. If you have the DAW, it controls that too - and maps to most VSTs . Also , at least 20 user snapshots, so you can save one setup for SPITFIRE, one for OT etc
> 
> Furthermore, 12 buttons for Macros that you can put in via your pc- i.e. CTRL + ATL + Z or what ever.
> 
> ...


"Look at P1". Could you be more specific?


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## Bear Market (Feb 5, 2021)

stigc56 said:


> "Look at P1". Could you be more specific?








Panorama P1 ▷ USB MIDI Controller | Control Surface | DAW Control







nektartech.com


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## stevebryson (Feb 5, 2021)

I've tried many controllers but find the most usable to be the EWI USB breath controller for monophonic lines (playing the notes and breath on the same instrument is better than playing keys with a separate breath controller like the TEC, which I also have) and the Behringer X-Touch. I find the large range of motion of the X-Touch sliders combined with their slight amount of friction to be much more controllable than my other slider controllers. I find touch screen based sliders to be less controllable. 

And yes, you can configure which X-Touch slider does what in Logic Pro.


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