# So, I have seen Star Wars: The Force Awakens! (NO SPOILER)



## Andrajas

Hey guys!

Just saw the movie! :D Not everyone have seen the movie, so I won't spoil anything! Just wonder for those who have seen it, your thoughts about the movie, and particular the music?!:D (without spoiling anything)


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## Lawson.

Howwwwww?!?!!?!?!???? I gotta wait until tomorrow at 9:30! :(


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## Andrajas

Lawson. said:


> Howwwwww?!?!!?!?!???? I gotta wait until tomorrow at 9:30! :(


I live in sweden, and it premiered today! :D Was so happy when the opening title showed up! The applauses and screams I got to hear in the room during that moment was… awesome haha!


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## Lawson.

Andrajas said:


> I live in sweden, and it premiered today! :D Was so happy when the opening title showed up! The applauses and screams I got to hear in the room during that moment was… awesome haha!



Lucky!!!! Did you dress up?


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## RiffWraith

Lawson. said:


> Lucky!!!! Did you dress up?



Well, I certainly hope he did not go in the nude!!!


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## Andrajas

Lawson. said:


> Lucky!!!! Did you dress up?


I did not, came straight from school to see it, but I got to see some stormtroopers 



RiffWraith said:


> Well, I certainly hope he did not go in the nude!!!


Haha, I did not


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## Jerome Vonhogen

Hi everyone!

I've seen the The Force Awakens 24 hours ago. 

My brother and I were invited by the Disney Company to attend the official Gala Premiere in Amsterdam on Tuesday.

I won't spoil the fun, but I do want to say this to all John Williams fans among us: Don't think you will have time to listen to the soundtrack, apart from the beginning and end of the movie!

There is so much going on, that even if there wouldn't have been any music in this movie, one might not even notice. Maybe this sounds ridiculous to you, after all we're talking about a John Williams score here, but believe me, for the first time in a Star Wars movie, the music doesn't really matter most of the time. That's how good this movie is!

What REALLY matters this time though, is SOUND and dialogue! Make sure your theater has an excellent sound system, because sound really tells an important part of the story in The Force Awakens.

Sadly, the Disney Gala premiere on the 15th was in 3D. I don't like 3D and neither does J.J. Abrams. Daisy Ridley also recommended watching the movie in 2D the first time. Just watch the movie on the biggest possible screen and enjoy!

By the way, security was really impressive at the Gala Event yesterday. I have never seen anything like it. Metal detectors everywhere, phones had to be handed over to be sealed in special transparent bags and taken away (for the duration of the movie) by security guards, instructions on stage by a Disney top-manager on the "review embargo" that Disney had imposed during the first few days of the week, instructions regarding a responsible use of social media in the opening week ....

... Just wow!

I believe this movie is more than the fans could have asked for. Hugely impressive. You won't be disappointed!

Enjoy the ride, everyone!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Andrajas

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I've seen the The Force Awakens 24 hours ago.
> 
> My brother and I were invited by the Disney Company to attend the official Gala Premiere in Amsterdam on Tuesday.
> 
> I won't spoil the fun, but I do want to say this to all John Williams fans among us: Don't think you will have time to listen to the soundtrack, apart from the beginning and end of the movie!
> 
> There is so much going on, that even if there wouldn't have been any music in this movie, one might not even notice. Maybe this sounds ridiculous to you, after all we're talking about a John Williams score here, but believe me, for the first time in a Star Wars movie, the music doesn't really matter most of the time. That's how good this movie is!
> 
> What REALLY matters this time though, is SOUND and dialogue! Make sure your theater has an excellent sound system, because sound really tells an important part of the story in The Force Awakens.
> 
> Sadly, the Disney Gala premiere on the 15th was in 3D. I don't like 3D and neither does J.J. Abrams. Daisy Ridley also recommended watching the movie in 2D the first time. Just watch the movie on the biggest possible screen and enjoy!
> 
> By the way, security was really impressive at the Gala Event yesterday. I have never seen anything like it. Metal detectors everywhere, phones had to be handed over to be sealed in special transparent bags and taken away (for the duration of the movie) by security guards, instructions on stage by a Disney top-manager on the "review embargo" that Disney had imposed during the first few days of the week, instructions regarding a responsible use of social media in the opening week ....
> 
> ... Just wow!
> 
> I believe this movie is more than the fans could have asked for. Hugely impressive. You won't be disappointed!
> 
> Enjoy the ride, everyone!
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen


I agree with everything here! Really great movie!


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## Rasmus Hartvig

I too agree that the movie was - at least - great. I'll hold off till my second viewing to adjust that to "fantastic" 

My immediate impression of the soundtrack is that it's a bit more anonymous than the usual Williams Star Wars soundtrack. That might be the product of not being able to focus a lot on the soundtrack during the movie, and I will not commit to judging it before having listened to it in isolation.

Of course it does everything it should, and the return of the old themes is pure bliss. The Force theme is harmonized in new ways a couple of places (in contrast to @HeadShot 's - also awesome - reharmonization from his trailer rescore, Williams goes for an ascending major feeling, imbuing it with a kind of ambiguous hope.)

There are a couple of new themes, but none of them as crystal clear as from the original trilogy. That may sound like a niggle, but it's almost irrelevant when you've just witnessed an exhilarating action adventure that propels ever forward with motion, all without a endless ostinatos or epic pounding drums.


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## FriFlo

The theater I just watched it in was full of teenagers doing there thing, so I had a difficult time to follow the music, sometimes even the dialogue!  But I think I have heard enough to say, that there are no new themes sticking out really (I would have at least expected something less generic for Kylo Ren). The prequels had more of that memorable themes, like the duell of the fates. Also, I would have wished for a more gritty sound (vs warm sound) at times, to match the movie.
I enjoyed the movie a lot! Some great jokes, lots of great action, a very good look, etc. I wouldn't say it is all my wishes coming true, it doesn't have enough suprises after having watched the trailers and having imagined what the story could be like, but I guess the is ok for act one! 
But over all, I think it is not possible today, to find something as phenomenal, as you found it in your childhood. I felt that during the prequels, too. But this is definitively more to my liking than any of the prequels, though there are a few things, that were a little more exciting there, too! Mostly the lightsaber battles in Episode 1, but I am sure there will be more of that in the following episodes.


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## Stiltzkin

I've seen the film and felt the music was low in the mix, I felt myself very focussed on the story anyway which was great. I personally thought it was great! But now having been able to listen to the soundtrack on its own, I think it's great, the film would have benefited from having the music louder - it's spectacular!


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## Jerome Vonhogen

FriFlo said:


> (...) this is definitively more to my liking than any of the prequels, though there are a few things, that were a little more exciting there, too! Mostly the lightsaber battles in Episode 1, but I am sure there will be more of that in the following episodes.



Exciting lightsaber battles in Episode 1, you say?
Sure, if Billy Elliot is your favorite movie...

The lightsaber duels in the prequels were completely ridiculous, which is sad, cause George Lucas used to be inspired by Scaramouche, probably the best fencing movie in history.

As a skilled sabre fencer, I was utterly annoyed by the childish lightsabre crap in the prequels, and was pleasantly surprised by the realism of the 'fencing' in Episode 7. Finally, no more pirouettes !!!! Also, no more suicidal close fights that don't make any sense whatsoever to even the most inexperienced fencer.

I read that the change of fencing style in Episode 7 was a deliberate choice by the filmmakers. Bravo J.J. Abrams!! Boo Billy Elliot, boooo!! 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## FriFlo

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Exciting lightsaber battles in Episode 1, you say?
> Sure, if Billy Elliot is your favorite movie...
> 
> The lightsaber duels in the prequels were completely ridiculous, which is sad, cause George Lucas used to be inspired by Scaramouche, probably the best fencing movie in history.
> 
> As a skilled sabre fencer, I was utterly annoyed by the childish lightsabre crap in the prequels, and was pleasantly surprised by the realism of the 'fencing' in Episode 7. Finally, no more pirouettes !!!! Also, no more suicidal close fights that don't make any sense whatsoever to even the most inexperienced fencer.
> 
> I read that the change of fencing style in Episode 7 was a deliberate choice by the filmmakers. Bravo J.J. Abrams!! Boo Billy Elliot, boooo!!
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen


Well, I totally admit that I am not a fencer by any means, but I liked those martial arts movies as as a kid and I still like that acrobatic vooshoo fighting style, although I know it is not realistic at all! 
But, you know, those are Jedis, so it is ok to me if it is over the top. My favourite light saber duell is actually from Return of the Jedi in the emperors chambers. This has some of the energy of the darth maul duell, but it is loaded with emotion. When the choir sets in as Luke gets angry, that was a perfect movie moment to me!
I think we are going to see more of this in episode 8 and 9, if you ask me ...


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## Andrajas

I agree with the thoughts on the music. It was great, its just that the new melodies didn't stick with me. I think I need to watch it again and listen more on the score


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## Hannes_F

Stiltzkin said:


> I've seen the film and felt the music was low in the mix, I felt myself very focussed on the story anyway which was great. I personally thought it was great! But now having been able to listen to the soundtrack on its own, I think it's great, the film would have benefited from having the music louder - it's spectacular!



Agreed - the mix was good but I would have preferred the music to be 1 or 2 dB louder overall. I can only speculate that they perhaps wanted to kind of demonstrate that good music does not always need to be blazingly loud in order to work ... and maybe it was just 1 or 2 dB too much of that demonstration ...

That being said I will watch it again soon!


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## Jerome Vonhogen

Hannes_F said:


> (...) the mix was good but I would have preferred the music to be 1 or 2 dB louder overall.




I'm sure that's also what John Williams said in the mixing room. But then Ben Burt told Mickey Mouse about hearing loss with human beings of Williams' age, and that it was probably best just to ignore him.

Ben Burt - John Williams
1 - 0


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## Rob Elliott

I have seen (somewhere in a past film) where Williams pleaded to have the music 'live' ----- translation ----- do not relegate the score behind a truck flat tire or passing flea in flight...... Sounds like he may have lost the argument with Abrams. Going to see it in 2 hours - hoping that it is fine. Don't get me wrong - music is just as bad too loud as I have seen in a most recent blockbuster...


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## scottbuckley

The film was great - it actually FELT like Star Wars. My hat goes off to JJ, that's a monumental task to achieve.

Re: the score, I've added a spoiler tag, just because I know I didn't want to know ANYTHING about the film before I got a chance to see it.



Spoiler: Slight Spoiler Stuff about the Score...



Johnny's score is good - but I think it just lacks those hooky, sweeping, highly-hummable themes from the other films (yes, even the prequels). For instance, Rey's theme has a lovely little ostinato motif, but the melody is just oddly disjointed. The March of the Resistance was also an interesting choice as well - I feel it frames the group a little differently to how I want to feel about them - as it actually reminds me of the imperialistic marches from the prequels (which helped set the scene for the rise of the Empire in the original trilogy). It felt more of a 'First Order' theme. Because of that, I found the tone of one of the set pieces to be a little confusing. But I think I need to watch it again .



Anyway... I can't wait to go back and watch the film again! And perhaps, again! 

-s


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## Rob Elliott

+1 on this and the score


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## RiffWraith

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I'm sure that's also what John Williams said in the mixing room.



Just an FYI: composers are almost never on the dub stage. Now, if you are JW, and you want to go, you are going. So is it possible he was there at some point? Sure - but highly unlikely. And if he was, it almost certainly wouldn't be for the entire mix.

Cheers.


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## davidgary73

Listening to the soundtrack score now..hmmm.. +1 on scottbuckley review.


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## Dr.Quest

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I'm sure that's also what John Williams said in the mixing room. But then Ben Burt told Mickey Mouse about hearing loss with human beings of Williams' age, and that it was probably best just to ignore him.
> 
> Ben Burt - John Williams
> 1 - 0


Not sure what you mean here. Ben was asked to turn all his previous work over to the new team. Even though he has a credit he had no direct involvement. It was very sad for me, as a sound designer, to see the creator of what really is the sound of Star Wars into the "aging professional" compost heap.


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## kavinsky

I definitely noticed few georgeous ques here and there, but overall I agree that there were too much going on visually to pay attention to the score.

The film was great, the amount of detail is just unbelievable.
But it's definitely felt as a J.J.Abrams movie. 
On the way home I was trying to picture how it would turn out if Nolan agreed to direct it.


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## Guy Rowland

Dr.Quest said:


> Not sure what you mean here. Ben was asked to turn all his previous work over to the new team. Even though he has a credit he had no direct involvement. It was very sad for me, as a sound designer, to see the creator of what really is the sound of Star Wars into the "aging professional" compost heap.



Oh, I didn't know that, and that explains it. I was disappointed from a sound design perspective - everything fit ok and sounded like Star Wars well enough, but the sound and music are the only two things in the prequels that really work. Burtt did an amazing job on the prequels, with some really new fresh ideas. I didn't hear anything new in Ep 7, it just feels like re-treads in the main and now I know why. Anyone know why he didn't do it?

(film otherwise - very good and great fun if not exceptional)

EDIT - just heard (from a reliable source) that Burtt was definitely involved in the production and was around working on it even before shooting, but don't know how much he then delegated in post.


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## Lawson.

Finally watched it! I was hoping for a bit more of those classic, sweeping, themes that Johnny is known for, but it was still really good. The updated old themes were fantastic.



Spoiler



I liked Kylo's theme a lot. It sounded a bit like Indiana Jones (which I'm not complaining about). It was didn't seem super unique (5 #4 1 b3 IIRC) but then again the Imperial March is just outlining a Eb chord! I can't remember Rey's theme off the top of my head, and the Resistance's theme was pretty interesting (though not what I was expecting).


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## Ryan

I saw it yesterday. One thing is for sure: I got goosebumps a lot under the movie. The score was also good. I disagree about the db level. I thought it was a very good match!

Ryan


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## Markus Kohlprath

I liked the score and db levels. Everything is near to perfect to my ears. But considering the experience and money involved this is no surprise. The only thing I missed were some new strong melodies for the new generation. To me at least Daisy alias Rey who was really cute would deserve a cute theme in the tradition of leyas theme. Maybe when she is initialized as a jedi (will it be?) there is time for it.
Overall it's really refreshing to hear a classic orchestral score again after all the steels, bats and x-mens booming drums.


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## DHousden

I think the key with the entire movie is that they're playing it safe for the first installment, and rightly so. With a fanbase as vocal and fragile as Star Wars, I think it was 100% the right direction to go, to get the series back on track. I guess this extended to the music as well, as they certainly didn't take any Nolan style risks with the levels in post. 

It was a very solid job from JW, without being exceptional. There was nothing particularly memorable in the way of new music (which was a shame given that the main strength of the prequels were the score; Duel of the Fates and Across the Stars cementing themselves as two of my all-time favourite SW cues) but it was glorious to hear the old refrains again and as always it was superbly linked together and kept within context. I was expecting to hear a more Imperialistic take on the First Order's theme and I do feel that Kylo Ren was a missed opportunity to do something special with, musically. Also, hearing Leia's theme once again only served to highlight how forgetable (but still very pleasant) Rey's theme is by way of comparison. 

This is seriously nit picking though, it was a fantastic film and the score holds up superbly next to it, it just doesn't steal the show as we may have expected. I'm off for a second viewing today, so perhaps some of the new motif's will begin to worm their way into my ears on second listen!


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## Jerome Vonhogen

RiffWraith said:


> Just an FYI: composers are almost never on the dub stage. Now, if you are JW, and you want to go, you are going. So is it possible he was there at some point? Sure - but highly unlikely. And if he was, it almost certainly wouldn't be for the entire mix.





Dr.Quest said:


> Ben Burt - John Williams
> 1 - 0
> Not sure what you mean here.



FYI, I was just joking, I thought that was pretty obvious. Why so serious? 

By the way, my post was actually based on footage of the mixing process of the Mustafar scene in the 3rd prequel, where there was a lot of discussion about the sound levels of the FXs versus those of the music. Ben Burt even explains to the viewer that such arguments are quite common during the post production of this kind of movies. In the footage, you can actually see Ben Burt and John Williams' assistent (on behalf of the composer, apparently) 'fighting for dominance'. Maybe JW himself was even in the room, I forgot. So, to answer Dr.Quest's question, this is what I was actually talking about.

Now, what about Ben Burt's true involvement in The Force Awakens? It would really help if you could provide some reliable sources to back those claims up. So far, I've only heard your rumours.

- Jerome V.


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## Darthmorphling

Took my kids to see it last night. It was a phenomenal film. Not sure of where it ranks compared to the original trilogy yet, but it certainly is up there in the top four. JJ really did justice to the original trilogy and none of the original cast were shoehorned in. 

After the movie was done, someone walking out yelled out a major plot point in front of the other people waiting in line. Needless to say he was not the most popular person at that moment.


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## Zhao Shen

Rasmus Hartvig said:


> I too agree that the movie was - at least - great. I'll hold off till my second viewing to adjust that to "fantastic"
> 
> My immediate impression of the soundtrack is that it's a bit more anonymous than the usual Williams Star Wars soundtrack. That might be the product of not being able to focus a lot on the soundtrack during the movie, and I will not commit to judging it before having listened to it in isolation.
> 
> Of course it does everything it should, and the return of the old themes is pure bliss. The Force theme is harmonized in new ways a couple of places (in contrast to @HeadShot 's - also awesome - reharmonization from his trailer rescore, Williams goes for an ascending major feeling, imbuing it with a kind of ambiguous hope.)
> 
> There are a couple of new themes, but none of them as crystal clear as from the original trilogy. That may sound like a niggle, but it's almost irrelevant when you've just witnessed an exhilarating action adventure that propels ever forward with motion, all without a endless ostinatos or epic pounding drums.


I think a lot of it may have to due with the style of the action. TFA is a modern film, and has modern action sequences in it. The music stood out A LOT in the original trilogy not only because the music itself was incredible, but because it accompanied visuals that weren't that hard to follow. TFA was filled to the brim with excitement and continuous development, and I think that's part of the reason the music fell a little under the radar.

Also. Was I the only one that almost died when I saw the opening scene with Williams' music? That silhouette... So good.


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## David Story

Thanks to John Williams and the scoring community for bringing Star Wars and its magic back. The audience laughed and wept tears of joy. The score must be good


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## AlexRuger

Really disappointed with JW's score. Never thought I'd ever say that, as I don't think I've been anything less than blown away by him in the past. But also, who knows if it's his fault--could be JJ asking for a different sound than what we know and love from Star Wars--but I found the lack of prominent themes...disturbing, to say the least.

I also except that there were at least a few ghost writers on this. For some cues, the detail and intricacy he brings to *all* of his scores, in even the most mundane cues, just wasn't there; and at times it sounded nothing like him, or at best it sounded like a bad impression of him. There were a few moments where it did sound like him, with all of that care and nuance in the writing and orchestration, but that was mostly with the old material. It was overall a very strange and disjointed score.

Maybe he's watering down the music so that future Star Wars composers don't have to live up to him?


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## acicero

AlexRuger said:


> Really disappointed with JW's score. Never thought I'd ever say that, as I don't think I've been anything less than blown away by him in the past. But also, who knows if it's his fault--could be JJ asking for a different sound than what we know and love from Star Wars--but I found the lack of prominent themes...disturbing, to say the least.
> 
> I also except that there were at least a few ghost writers on this. For some cues, the detail and intricacy he brings to *all* of his scores, in even the most mundane cues, just wasn't there; and at times it sounded nothing like him, or at best it sounded like a bad impression of him. There were a few moments where it did sound like him, with all of that care and nuance in the writing and orchestration, but that was mostly with the old material. It was overall a very strange and disjointed score.
> 
> Maybe he's watering down the music so that future Star Wars composers don't have to live up to him?


Thanks for saying this. I'm sad to say I agree.


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## FriFlo

My favourite Williams score of the 21st century is actually Tin Tin. It feels like he is putting way more of his personality into that than the new starwars.
On Tatooine in episode 4 we had this amazing desert music inspired by "sacre du printemps". Not exactly a catchy tune, but so important for the mood. 
On Jakuu there was nothing of that sort ... rather warm sounding, Reys theme I believe, in front of those wrecks of Stardestroyers we knew from the first teaser. Not at all what I would have imagined there. And that is just one example of moods I have missed, that are - next to the memorable themes - so much part of the starwars experience IMO ...


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## vewilya

I sort of agree about the JW score lacking themes etc. But I'll have to see it a 2nd time for sure. I mean I grew up with JW's scores for Star Wars. I think he is one of the greatest in film scoring but also composition (Tree Song is one of my all time favourites!) in general. His craftsmanship is amazing. I absolutely love his stuff. But I felt the music being a little odd at times. That feels terrible to say somehow. I can't imagine Star Wars without the JW score. But I kept wondering whether JJ's modern, contemporary approach and Williams' more "traditional" scoring were an odd coupling somehow. Maybe I'm just being stupid. I mean it's an amazing movie really and the score is jolly good. Even without these prominent themes like the ones we're used to...


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## AlexRuger

Yup. Also, I'm listening to the score right now, and man, even in the main theme, the high perc (glock, triangle, etc) and the winds are mixed SO low! It's all strings, brass, and low perc. And the score is far more ostinato-based, with fewer wind/harp flourishes, xylo/trumpet stabs, all that good stuff.

It just feels like...that sound of the original trilogy is truly gone now. The soundscape of modern film scores (at least in large budget films) is homogenizing to the point that Williams can't even sound like Williams. It hurts a bit.

Looking forward to the new composers (not that there's any hint that JW isn't coming back--but come on, he's getting old and this movie feels like a passing of the torch). My friends Gordy Haab (who scored the new Battlefront game) and Kyle Newmaster are my pick(s)--not because they're my friends, but because I truly think they're up to the job--and Bill Ross could be a great choice too, though we all know it'll probably go to someone like Desplat, which is fine with me. He did a fantastic job with JW's Harry Potter material.


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## AlexRuger

vewilya said:


> But I kept wondering whether JJ's modern, contemporary approach and Williams' more "traditional" scoring were an odd coupling somehow.



I think you're right, actually. This movie's editing is *very* different than the original or prequel trilogies--much more modern--and lends itself to more ostinato-based scoring.

You know what? Just realized that this score feels very similar to Silvestri's Avengers score.


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## vewilya

True. Different pace as well I think. But I think I'll have to watch it again just to do it justice. I mean the movie was drawing me in so it was hard to focus on the music, as much as I love JW. But that being said, I remember watching the prequels in the cinema and being blown away by the sheer atmosphere of certain passages. And that really did get through! I didn't have these moments with episode 7. 
I think Gordy Haab is an amazing composer, though also knee-deep in the JW tradition, no? But a really competent guy. I just remember his work on Star Wars kinect and also SWTOR. Great stuff really! Desplat would be very interesting.


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## AlexRuger

Kyle and Gordy co-scored Kinekt, whereas Battlefront was just Gordy. They're each very steeped in the JW style of writing, and either one could really do it justice while bringing it forward into the modernized feel of the new trilogy. I honestly can't think of anyone better-suited for the job.


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## vewilya

Sounds interesting. Though we're being blasphemic! JW is a grand master and he's given some much! And somehow he's very modern as well.....so.... we'll see what comes next......


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## Guy Rowland

Interesting inverse from the prequels, isn't it? In 1-3 the music and sound design were the only plusses, everything else was a huge grisly minus. In 7 everything else is a huge stupendous plus EXCEPT for music and sound design. Neither of which come remotely close to being bad imo, but just lack the innovative spark of the earlier films.

You know, all things considered, I'll take 7.


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## vewilya

Yep. I mean it's a great movie. And maybe it needs time as well. George Lucas and JW that was a relationship that developed over decades, so...


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## tonaliszt

Well, in my opinion: I loved every second of it.


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## vicontrolu

No. Its just a remake.


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## Stiltzkin

Sorry you feel that way - personally I'm enjoying the work by John Williams. Studying it, it's got a wealth of material ready to be experimented with, which is likely to be explored in the future episodes. So similar to the film, it's setting things up (and it did so excellently in my opinion).


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## Dr.Quest

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> FYI, I was just joking, I thought that was pretty obvious. Why so serious?
> 
> Now, what about Ben Burt's true involvement in The Force Awakens? It would really help if you could provide some reliable sources to back those claims up. So far, I've only heard your rumours.
> 
> - Jerome V.



This is from Mike Verta in the rescored Star Wars trailer thread...


mverta said:


> Not to hijack, but Ben Burtt is not doing the sound for the new film. He's credited, but he didn't do any of it. They DID, however, ask him to turn over all his work. He's pretty pissed about it, though not publicly. His sensibilities will be/are already missed. The sound of that new infant-toy-looking droid sounds like a duck.
> 
> _Mike



So I am serious because Ben was the reason I got into sound design along with Myers and Lynch and I think it shows a level of disrespect to one of the big identifying elements of Star Wars, the sound design. It is as big a part as Williams music.


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## Guy Rowland

Dr.Quest said:


> This is from Mike Verta in the rescored Star Wars trailer thread...



Ahhhhh.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

This will be the same Mike Verta who solemnly told us from his vis fx sources that the Force Awakens "sucks" and not to get our hopes up?

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...-spielberg-is-right.48282/page-3#post-3892977

Mike's a terrific guy, but I don't think he has the most reliable Star Wars sources. I have my own first hand Star Wars source, and it seems beyond doubt to me that Burtt's role was greater than just handing over the archive. That said, I don't think he had the full reign that he enjoyed on all others too. I'd very much like to know the truth... my own ears tell me this isn't at the same level as before, but I'm glad he didn't just hand over the hard drive.


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## NoamL

@AlexRuger can you be more specific about what you mean here?



AlexRuger said:


> I also except that there were at least a few ghost writers on this. For some cues, the detail and intricacy he brings to *all* of his scores, in even the most mundane cues, just wasn't there; and at times it sounded nothing like him, or at best it sounded like a bad impression of him. There were a few moments where it did sound like him, with all of that care and nuance in the writing and orchestration, but that was mostly with the old material. It was overall a very strange and disjointed score.



I also felt that there was something strange compared to the prequels... and that the level of contrapuntalism and rich, dense detail in a lot of his scores 1993-2011 was not present here. But ghost writers? That is a biiig assumption...


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## vewilya

I wouldn't know whether it concerns scoring only or just the playing together of this kind of movie making with JW's sort of scoring. I can't tell really. I'll watch it again tonight... Anyway we're spoiled! No spoilers I know....but......


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## NoamL

Here is a comparison for what I meant about the level of detail:




Here's another for good measure:


----------



## vewilya

I mean it's more linear composing at times. But it's still awesome. And I think the March of the resistance has some amazing contrapuntal details in it (1:10)!!


----------



## Vin

NoamL said:


> @AlexRuger
> 
> But ghost writers? That is a biiig assumption...



Plot twist: HeadShot 

Listening now for the 4th time, and while maybe it isn't strong as the first (not prequels, but originals) three, it's still phenomenal. Love the dryness of the sound as well - reminds me that I should use even less reverb. Or that I should get a Bricasti


----------



## Pasticcio

Just saw it recently. Am I the only one who immediately got surprised how shitty & static the opening title sounded? I found the orchestration to be very static and boring multiple times in the film to be honest.

Not that it matters, since the film didn't allow much moments for the music anyway(Although I started shaking & almost cried a few times when it was). 
I don't think I've ever heard a Williams score been so cutted before.
I though the mix was very annoying aswell, since everytime it sounded like the music wanted to do a thing it was interupted by the sound design, followed by a cut.

Listening to the soundtrack now though, and damn there's alot of goodness here to satisfy me :D


----------



## Tatu

I have an agreement with a couple of friends of mine that we'll go and see it next week because of their schedules.. well sure, I "sneaked" in today to see it  

Loved everything about it, even though it wasn't the best movie ever. And I want more.


----------



## Hannes_F

Question - does anybody know what is the difference between the standard version and the limited deluxe version of the OST CD?


----------



## RiffWraith

NoamL said:


> Here is a comparison for what I meant about the level of detail:



(VIDS)



AlexRuger said:


> Yup. Also, I'm listening to the score right now, and man, even in the main theme, the high perc (glock, triangle, etc) and the winds are mixed SO low! It's all strings, brass, and low perc. And the score is far more ostinato-based, with fewer wind/harp flourishes, xylo/trumpet stabs, all that good stuff.
> 
> It just feels like...that sound of the original trilogy is truly gone now. The soundscape of modern film scores (at least in large budget films) is homogenizing to the point that Williams can't even sound like Williams. It hurts a bit.
> 
> Looking forward to the new composers (not that there's any hint that JW isn't coming back--but come on, he's getting old and this movie feels like a passing of the torch).




I think you guys are forgetting something. And if I may reference Noam's vids...

'TFA' is missing the voices of Herbert W. Spencer and Conrad Pope. Not sure why the latter (Herbert passed away a while back), but I feel that this has a lot to do with the way the score sounds. It's still unmistakably JW - but as we all know, he doesn't write and orchestrate _everything_. So, I think the diff here is not JW's age, nor the relationship between him and JJA; I think the diff lies more in the orchestration.

Cheer.


----------



## jononotbono

Holy tittie tourettes. Just watched it. Finally I love Star Wars again. It's only taken about 25 years for me to find the love again!


----------



## timtom

Hannes_F said:


> Question - does anybody know what is the difference between the standard version and the limited deluxe version of the OST CD?



I have the Limited Deluxe Edition and as far as I know the only difference is that the limited version has in addition 
O-Card featuring cover artwork different from standard digipack, exclusive to this format
Two CD sized lithographs.

So the music is the same, just some artwork in addition with the CD


----------



## Andrajas

Interesting thoughts in this thread! Has anyone watched the movie twice here and was able to listen to the music to picture in more detail?


----------



## timtom

Pasticcio said:


> Just saw it recently. Am I the only one who immediately got surprised how shitty & static the opening title sounded? I found the orchestration to be very static and boring multiple times in the film to be honest.
> 
> Not that it matters, since the film didn't allow much moments for the music anyway(Although I started shaking & almost cried a few times when it was).
> I don't think I've ever heard a Williams score been so cutted before.
> I though the mix was very annoying aswell, since everytime it sounded like the music wanted to do a thing it was interupted by the sound design, followed by a cut.
> 
> Listening to the soundtrack now though, and damn there's alot of goodness here to satisfy me :D


Interesting i just bought the Soundtrack and saw the movie last night and I also instantly had the impression something is a bit off/different compared to the original/older soundtracks. Especially on the Opening Titles I somehow got the impression they used a smaller orchestra or recorded everything straight to digital since it didn't have the magic and the majestic huge sound it always had in the original version. Didn't they record this soundtrack in Los Angeles and not at Abbey Road Studios any more? Maybe the combination of a different room plus NO LSO any more plus everything straight to Hard Drive and not recoded to Analog Tape Machines makes that difference?

I duno, but I agree that the sound is not that great (well it actually is great but not the magic from the past any more) and also through the movie I also agree that the typical JW madness details orchestration is missing (Did Herb Spencer work on this? Is he still alive?) JW and Herb where THE MAGICAL TEAM!


----------



## Tatu

Well, the original soundtracks weren't that filled with flare either. That came later in JW's career.


----------



## devastat

timtom said:


> Didn't they record this soundtrack in Los Angeles and not at Abbey Road Studios any more? Maybe the combination of a different room plus NO LSO any more plus everything straight to Hard Drive and not recoded to Analog Tape Machines makes that difference?


The soundtrack was recorded at Sony Scoring Stage. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a conscious decision from J.J. Abrams to record the soundtrack in a different stage to give the film its own "flavor". I personally thought the score was quite good - I loved Rey's theme in particular.


----------



## Stiltzkin

Considering a new hope and parts of the empire strikes back weren't recorded at Abbey Road, I don't think it matters too much that it was recorded at Sony. While it did sound different, it was a new orchestra altogether who recorded it. It was still shawn murphy, so I think it was mostly just that it was a different orchestra - even if the original members from the LSO from the first recordings aren't in the LSO anymore, it has a character to it that they keep alive with new players by ensuring they have the same sound.

That said, I still love the soundtrack - if you look at a new hope's ost, the orchestration feels a lot 'thinner' (though still genius, especially the battle of yavin) than empire strikes back and return of the jedi. It also didn't have vaders theme, it didn't have yodas theme etc, that was all developed later out of some of the ideas in the later films. I still think the force awakens score will be to 8 & 9, what 4 was to 5 & 6.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Funny, isn't it? A New Hope's score has always resonated with me far more than any of the others, even without the Imperial March. Dare I say it, I get kinda bored after a while in Empire and Jedi. But A New Hope floors me every time. It's about the most evocative score I can think of... pretentiously I use the phrase "the soul of the movie" to describe the very best scores, and A New Hope is perhaps the all-time greatest example of that. To me, it's simply phenomenal, building to the Battle Of Yavin, about which there are no words. Incidentally, I've always loved that in the film itself Yavin is in two parts, with a very lengthy sequence that has no music at all which has its own power, then when the music returns with that horn figure it's just perfect, ramping up to yet another level. Spine-tingling. And I just love its bizarre tone, almost dry, very present, sat in the middle of the orchestra.

By contrast, I doubt the score to 7 will feel like the soul of the movie as such, but the themes are still the soul of the whole series, providing a powerful continuity. Much as I sense here (and to some extent share) the disappointment of the score itself, as I think back on the film most of my favourite moments were heightened or even almost totally reliant on the music. So a bit of perspective and all that - it's no horror show.

I believe it was scored at Sony in part because JW no longer wants to travel by air, someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I agree the opening theme was just a shade flat. At the time I put that down to a) a reserved audience in my screening of lunchtime olds, and b) the absent Fox fanfare. Oh I did miss that.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

Andrajas said:


> Interesting thoughts in this thread! Has anyone watched the movie twice here and was able to listen to the music to picture in more detail?


 

Yes, I watched the movie on Tuesday with my brother (in 3D), on Thursday with my kids (in 2D, which was a million times better than the 3D version at the Disney Gala Premiere), and yesterday in 2D again.

I listened to the OST this morning.

The premiere had the best sound quality, which is not surprising, since Disney had done a lot of adjustments to the theater in Amsterdam, just for the occasion (for instance, they had built a huge secondary 180 degree curved, moving screen in front of the actual screen on which they projected customized footage from the movie during the presentation by a Disney executive who was joined on stage by R2D2.

During a truly spectacular countdown, which looked like a Star Tours hyperdrive-ride on steroids, the huge curved screen with all the fast moving stars projected on it slowly opened from the middle of the screen, revealing the actual screen behind it showing (seamlessly) a matching hyperdrive video in 3D, to the excitement of the audience. It's hard for me to describe in English the visual effect Disney had built just for the countdown to the premiere, but it felt like a modern day 3D version of Hitchcock's lens-zoom effect in Vertigo. They sure didn't spare any expense for the event!

However, even the excellent sound installation used at the premiere could not hide the poor quality of the surround sound-FXs. They sounded disjoint and too isolated to be functional to the story and to the visuals.

Strangely enough, I got the same feeling with the 3D FXs. A Stardestroyer with its nose sticking out into the audience? Really? I don't want to see that. I want to forget that I'm in a theater. Don't break the Fourth Wall, this is not a Bertold Brecht play, nor is it a Cirque du Soleil show in Las Vegas! Don't make me aware of my seat and the audience, I want to be part of the illusion of the world the filmmaker has created. It's like driving a Corvette in the racing game Asphalt 8 with the car in front of you, and then GameLoft decides to add raindrops to the screen. Suddenly, the 4th wall breaks down, and you find yourself controling the camera behind the car, instead of the car itself.

Why don't filmmaker's think about the physical and psychological effects of 3D pictures and surround sound? Luckily, the most impressive sound effects in The Force Awakens are the low drones of the scenes where the force (or maybe I should say "The Force 2.0") is used for evil purposes, which the audience experiences in a different way, because human beings suck at localizing the source of low frequency sound, due to the short distance between the ears and the longer wave length of the sound (which makes the phase differences to small for directional evaluation).

As for the music, although I'm still not really excited about the score, I'm very happy with the absence of those massive ('epic') choirs that constantly shout at you in unisono, as if you don't pay enough attention to the music. Instead, I hear a much more modest John Williams, with some cues that reminded me of John Debney's more delicate tracks for movies like Liar Liar and Bruce Almighty.

Maybe it's time to stop composing individual themes for individual characters. I never liked the idea of identifying characters via their respective musical themes. It's a one-dimensional approach that only works with one-dimensional characters, just like those irritable, moody and depressing Jedi's and "Padawans" (boy, do I hate that word!) in the prequels who clearly suffer from some serious interstellar hormonal imbalance. Not really worth consideration by the great John Williams, if you ask me.

Anyway, I'm glad John Williams is still out there chasing his 50th Oscar nomination. He's such a sympathetic human being, unlike some of the other legends of film music (especially Bernard Herrmann!). Let's hope he will finish the 3rd SW trilogy before he retires, and maybe he will even do a 5th Indiana Jones with his friend Spielberg along with H.Ford, just to forget the traumatic 4th Indiana Jones movie, which is another example of George Lucas' propensity for self-mutilation that I would really like to erase from my memory, just like those awful SW prequels.

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## AlexandreSafi

Regarding the Score, I just found this from a poster named "Faleel" from the fantastic JWFan forum...
I thought I'd post it here, since I feel it can help people get a real sense of the deceptive genius & ridiculous structure behind this, yet again, amazing work from John Williams...

Rough version of Themes & Motifs for TFA:


Spoiler: Themes & Motifs for Each Character



*Main Title and the Attack on the Jakku Village*

0:08 Luke's Theme A Section
0:26 Luke's Theme B Section
0:49 Luke's Theme A Section
4:20 Kylo Ren's Theme
5:32 Kylo Ren's Theme
6:13 Kylo Ren's Theme

*The Scavenger*

0:38 Rey's Theme?
0:53 Rey's Theme (Intro)
1:31 Rey's Theme (Main Theme)
1:59 Rey's Theme (Intro)
2:54 Rey's Theme

*I Can Fly Anything*

1:19 Rey's Theme

*Rey Meets BB-8*

0:00 BB-8 motif?

*Follow Me*

1:12 Finn's/Action Motif
1:41 Finn's/Action Motif
2:00 Finn's/Action Motif
2:29 Rebel Fanfare

*Rey's Theme*

0:00 Rey's Theme (Flute Intro)
0:13 Rey's Theme (Intro)
0:33 Rey's Theme
1:00 Rey's Theme (Intro)
1:21 Rey's Theme
1:40 Rey's Theme
1:54 Rey's Theme (Intro)
2:13 Rey's Theme
2:39 Rey's Theme (Intro)

*The Falcon*

0:08 Rebel Fanfare
0:11 Finn's/Action Motif
0:50 Finn's/Action Motif
1:00 Finn's/Action Motif
1:19 Finn's/Action Motif
2:26 Finn's/Action Motif
2:39 The Snow Battle Reference?
3:06 Finn's/Action Motif (Strings)?

*That Girl With the Staff*

0:08 Luke and Leia?
0:20 Rey's Theme

*The Rathtars!*

0:44 Luke's Theme A Section
2:47 Finn's/Action Motif
3:06 Finn's/Action Motif
3:43 Rebel Fanfare

*Finn's Confession*

0:00 Discussion and Confrontation (Talk of Podracing Reference)
0:48 Rey's Theme
1:00 Rey's Theme
1:17 Rey's Theme

*Maz's Counsel*

2:14 The Force Theme
2:40 Rey's Theme

*Kylo Ren Arrives at the Battle*

0:00 Dark Side (Carrying Home Mother Reference)?
0:51 Kylo Ren's Theme
1:17 Kylo Ren's Theme
1:29 Kylo Ren's Theme
1:43 Rey's Theme

*The Abduction*

0:13 Unknown 1 (Starkiller Base)?
0:45 Kylo Ren's Theme
0:57 Kylo Ren's Theme
1:18 The Force Theme (Fragment)?
1:39 Rey's Theme

*Han and Leia*

0:03 Luke's Theme A Section
0:10 Leia's Theme
0:29 Han Solo and the Princess (Luke To The Rescue Lift)
1:12 Resistance March
2:22 The Force Theme (Fragment)?
2:31 Rebel Fanfare (Fragment)?
3:25 Han Solo and the Princess
3:44 Unknown 1 (Starkiller Base)?
4:02 The Force Theme

*March of the Resistance*

0:15 Resistance March

*Snoke*

1:01 Snoke's Theme (Dark Side motif from ROTS?)

*On the Inside*

0:45 Kylo Ren's Theme
1:04 Kylo Ren's Theme
1:27 Rey's Theme

*Torn Apart*

1:06 The Force Theme (Fragment)?
2:48 Kylo Ren's Theme
3:13 The Force Theme
3:44 Kylo Ren's Theme
3:52 Rey's Theme

*The Ways of the Force*

0:13 The Force Theme
0:33 Rey's Theme
0:53 Rey's Theme
1:08 Unknown 1 (Starkiller Base)?
1:21 Kylo Ren's Theme
1:35 Kylo Ren's Theme
1:50 The Force Theme
2:08 Rey's Theme
2:38 The Force Theme
2:52 Rey's Theme

*Scherzo for X-Wings*

0:14 Luke's Theme A Section
0:32 Luke's Theme A Section
0:50 Luke's Theme A Section
1:04 Luke's Theme A Section
1:19 Luke's Theme A Section (Fragment)
1:34 Luke's Theme A Section (Fragment)
2:03 Luke's Theme A Section
2:07 The Force Theme

*Farewell and the Trip*

0:11 Rey's Theme
0:47 The Force Theme
1:26 Rey's Theme
1:49 Han Solo and the Princess
2:12 The Force Theme
2:55 Leia's Theme
3:45 Rebel Fanfare
3:51 Luke's Theme A Section
4:03 Rey's Theme (Flute Intro)
4:07 Rey's Theme
4:34 Rey's Theme (Flute Intro)

*The Jedi Steps and Finale*

0:04 Luke's Theme A Section
0:19 Rey's Theme/Luke's Theme Hybrid?
0:41 Rey's Theme/Luke's Theme Hybrid?
1:10 Rey's Theme/Luke's Theme Hybrid?
1:37 The Force Theme
2:14 Luke's Theme A Section
2:23 Rebel Fanfare
2:29 The Rolling Thunder
2:41 Luke's Theme A Section
2:58 Rey's Theme (Intro)
3:02 Rey's Theme (Flute Intro)
3:11 Rey's Theme
4:01 Rey's Theme (Flute Intro)
4:25 Unknown 1 (Starkiller Base?)
4:45 Kylo Ren's Theme
5:02 Finn's/Action Motif
6:05 Resistance March
7:27 The Force Theme
7:31 Rey's Theme
8:07 Rebel Fanfare
8:22 Rey's Theme
8:34 Luke's Theme A Section


----------



## whinecellar

Pasticcio said:


> Am I the only one who immediately got surprised how shitty & static the opening title sounded



No. I was gonna say the same thing. I was pretty shocked at the opening titles. From the initial hit on, it just sounded small and didn't hit me at all like the others. I got in trouble on another thread for "nitpicking" but I stand by what I said: the magic of Abbey Road (one of the few things the prequels did right and improved upon) is missing here. I hate the lack of that magic ambience, and the mix is surprisingly off. Just my $.02...


----------



## acicero

After seeing the movie and listening to the soundtrack all the way through, I DEFINITELY feel that the mixing is the issue. I was hoping for something dryer than the prequels, but I think this is even more dense and homogeneous from a production standpoint. Like somebody pointed out, the woodwinds are surprisingly low. Overall, the words "fat" and "muddy" come to mind when listening here. I suck at mixing but I know something has to be off here.


----------



## tack

acicero said:


> I DEFINITELY feel that the mixing is the issue.


But wasn't this score mixed by the unimpeachable Shawn Murphy?


----------



## RiffWraith

I have not heard the score, nor have I seen the movie. But...



whinecellar said:


> the magic of Abbey Road (one of the few things the prequels did right and improved upon) is missing here.



AR does not have any more magic than the Sony Scoring stage. Does "ET" lack magic? Where do you think that was recorded?

I am not saying you have the wrong assessment of how the score sounds; if it does indeed not sound up to par with the others, the reason is something other than the fact that it was recorded at Sony as opposed to AR.

Cheers.


----------



## RiffWraith

tack said:


> But wasn't this score mixed by the unimpeachable Shawn Murphy?



Don't think that world renowned, well-respected and highly sought after mixing engineers get to do what they want and only what they want. Just like composers, they have bosses too. Who knows what happened? Maybe he had the mix sounding big, great, epic, whatever, and someone (be it JJ, or someone from Disney) said, "no. Do it this way."

It happens.

Cheers.


----------



## RiffWraith

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Maybe it's time to stop composing individual themes for individual characters. I never liked the idea of identifying characters via their respective musical themes.



Film music seems to be headed in that direction, and I am of the opinion that THAT is exactly what is wrong with film score music these days. But that's just me.

Cheers.


----------



## tack

In the soundtrack, anyone else notice around 1:17 in The Ways of the Force there is something that sounds like a saxophone panned hard left that sticks out like a sore thumb for 3 or 4 notes?


----------



## whinecellar

RiffWraith said:


> AR does not have any more magic than the Sony Scoring stage. Does "ET" lack magic? Where do you think that was recorded?



I love these categorically objective statements about subjective opinions. This horse is sufficiently dead, but one more time - it's just my opinion. Having worked on projects recorded at Abbey Road, I hear that room in my favorite scores recorded there. It has a big "personality" and its imprint is unmistakeable. Of course E.T. isn't lacking in "magic" - it's an all-time favorite - but at the risk of ruffling feathers, it would have sounded better had it been recorded at AR. But again, that's just MY opinion


----------



## rottoy

tack said:


> In the soundtrack, anyone else notice around 1:17 in The Ways of the Force there is something that sounds like a saxophone panned hard left that sticks out like a sore thumb for 3 or 4 notes?


Just sounds like a bass clarinet to me, if a tad too bright.


----------



## NoamL

Tatu said:


> Well, the original soundtracks weren't that filled with flare either. That came later in JW's career.



Yes, for sure.

1993-2011 I guess is his most "complex" period - lots of very dense, detailed, ornamented writing. Lots of tossing material around to the different sections of the orchestra. Constantly kinetic and active, never flagging in imagination and novelty.

I *love* his scores of this period, especially Tintin, Harry Potter, Minority Report, and the prequels (TPM is my favorite Star Wars score). Stuff like this is why orchestras exist!



This new Star Wars could be a return to his sound of the 60s-70s before Jaws, that I'm less familiar with.

In my uninformed opinion... This is due to JJ Abrams. I'm thinking here of _*Super 8*_ and _*Star Trek*_. Super 8 was about paying tribute to the great Amblin Entertainment films. It was a very fun movie, but in terms of the homage, one thing that was off was it didn't contain the huge Spielbergian canvases that Williams gets to play with (think of the end of Close Encounters or ET, just huge stretches where the music is carrying the film). JJ's movie was really an action roller coaster. I went into that movie expecting a lavish ET style score with a dozen themes, especially because I knew from LOST that Michael Giacchino is just overflowing with ideas. But the score revolved around two themes, the monster motif and an emotional piano theme. Then with Star Trek, MG scored it almost monothematically (there was also an erhu thing to represent Vulcan and Spock's grief). That might be the right approach to scoring a JJ film: as direct as possible because the audience has so much else to listen to.

BTW did anyone else think that Rey's theme had almost a Morricone western feel to it? I wonder what (& who) was behind that decision as it felt kind of strange in the established musical universe.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

RiffWraith said:


> Film music seems to be headed in that direction, and I am of the opinion that THAT is exactly what is wrong with film score music these days.



Just to be sure Jeffrey, do you agree that it's time to stop writing individual themes for individual characters, because it treats complex characters like one-dimensional, cliché characters, or do you think I'm wrong and that filmmusic composers who don't want to compose individual themes for individual characters are wrong as well?

Your post is a little cryptic and I don't want to misinterpret your words.

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## RiffWraith

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Just to be sure Jeffrey, do you agree that it's time to stop writing individual themes for individual characters, because it treats complex characters like one-dimensional, cliché characters, or do you think I'm wrong and that filmmusic composers who don't want to compose individual themes for individual characters are wrong as well?



The latter; I think you are wrong. I disagree that individual themes for individual complex characters makes them into one-dimensional clichés. Not if the music is composed and orchestrated well.

Not that every single character in Hollywood needs it's own theme; that would wind up being silly. But yes.... I feel that film composers and directors who don't want to compose individual themes for individual characters - at least in a general sense - are wrong as well.

Cheers.


----------



## scottbuckley

Really good reading all your thoughts on this topic. Johnny seems to be a crucial part of all of our musical lives - he's got so much to live up to, and I don't envy him.

I watched the film a second time, and I have to say - Rey's theme has grown on me. The sequence at the end also makes me wonder whether parts of the theme might be cannibilised to create a new, secondary 'force' theme - one that represents the 're-awakened' force. But it's probably just me reading into things. So excited for the next film.

In regards to some who are dissapointed about a lack of an imperialistic First Order theme, remember - we didn't get a true Imperial March until Empire Strikes Back. I'd put my money on a similar dark story-line in VIII, where we see the First Order get the upper hand - and with it, their triumphant moment in the glorious JW musical canon .

My wife and I have often wondered - considering such a changing of the guard in regards to the team working on the film - whether JW could have passed the baton onto another composer. Star Wars is such a fan-revered universe now, and JJ did the job that many could not have done, delivering a film made for the fans, by a fan. I wonder if a new composer might have been able to do the same - to give us the 1979 John Williams treatment, full of all the glorious, gratuitously sweeping themes you know you all wanted. I would have put my money on Michael Giacchino (who in fact played a Stormtrooper in the film - check out the credits!), who I think is versatile enough to pull it off, with the sensitivity of a fan eager to preserve JW's legacy. 

Anyway - just my thoughts. I'm still VERY glad for the score JW gave us. More please.

-s


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

RiffWraith said:


> The latter; I think you are wrong. I disagree that individual themes for individual complex characters makes them into one-dimensional clichés.
> (...)
> I feel that film composers and directors who don't want to compose individual themes for individual characters - at least in a general sense - are wrong as well.


 
Thanks Jeffrey, nice to see a different perspective on this matter.

I still disagree with you (respectfully), although I think the music could help to accentuate the complexity of a character. However, this should be dictated by the story and the development of the characters, not by their appearance on the screen.

Please, make sure your quotes are accurate. I never said individual themes for individual characters would turn them into one-dimensional characters. I don't think composers have that kind of influence on the movie, and I don't think they should ever have that kind of power either.

I did say though, that individual themes for individual characters would only work for one-dimensional characters, and that it might be better if composers would stop treating complex characters as one-dimensional characters. But yes, I would be happy if composers would stop writing individual themes for individual characters.

I'd never allow a composer to have that kind of freedom. I strongly believe in storytelling and dialog. If you want to 'tag' characters with individual musical themes like Nintendo does with their Mario games, or like Toys For Bob does with Skylanders, then that's ok, just don't call it filmmusic.

If you want to write character-based theme music, then go write an opera, a musical, or write music for some Toys-to-Life game for children. That's where the music is supposed to have that kind of power, because in those genres, storytelling is not necessarily the most important element of the creative end-product. If you want to learn more about the characters in those genres, you'll need to press their belly and listen to their theme music + funny catch phrase.

Don't get me wrong, in almost every piece of music I have ever writen myself, melody is the most important ingredient, and I admit that I'm part of that old-fashioned melody-driven musical tradition in which recognizable themes are crucial. I also love musical themes in filmmusic, but I don't like the kind of musical "dressing up" of characters you seem to appreciate so much.

I love JW's Rey-theme in The Force Awakens, because it matches the mood, the story, the actions of Rey and the scenery; not because I'm suffering from Carbonite blindness, and I need some guidance 'cause my disobedient wookie next to me doesn't want to tell me what the hell is going on on the silver screen.

To me, the love for individual musical themes for individual characters in movies is just a side-effect (or at least an epiphenomenon) of the current popularity of Cosplay. And you know what I think of Cosplay...? It's just nudism in disguise.

Musical themes are not supposed to turn a story into a parade of colorful stereotypes, film music should follow the story, and should never distract from the story.

Let's face it, recognizable musical themes for individual characters is just another form of Cosplay. It's the emperor's new cloths meant to distract you from the fact that the emperor is in fact completely nude, and that in real life he's actually not as big as he appears to be, right Supreme Leader Snoke?

I'm sorry, but someone had to tell everyone...

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## NoamL

scottbuckley said:


> I would have put my money on Michael Giacchino (who in fact played a Stormtrooper in the film - check out the credits!), who I think is versatile enough to pull it off, with the sensitivity of a fan eager to preserve JW's legacy.



I agree and can think of no more fitting successor _if_ JW wishes to hand over the baton. Whoever is selected, it should be someone who can devote themselves to the saga. The Harry Potter movies suffered, after Williams left, from having each new director bring in someone to just write 1 or 2 movies.


----------



## David Story

Character themes begin thousands of years ago and are the basis for musical story structure. Stories need characters, and theme or melody does that in music. Themes can evoke a personality- the temperament, tone, direction, and impulses of an individual, place or idea. Sound design also uses themes, recurring timbres and rhythms that evolve to tell the story, similar to music. 

Talented and strong artists like JW or TN develop their themes into melodies. Star Wars is a perfect example of how musical themes are at the core of movie structure. Those movies come alive when Williams breathes life into the characters' action and unspoken thoughts and feelings.

If MG devotes his full attention to the task for several months, and follows the path John Williams built, he'll be fine. He's said he wants to hear what Williams does before he tries. He can compose a theme and weave it with the others. But that's hard work- ask Howard Shore.


----------



## ryans

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> If you want to write character-based theme music, then go write an opera



Are Star Wars movies not space operas? I've always thought of them as such... and Williams use of leitmotiv, seems so appropriate. Hard to imagine Star Wars without it.

Ryan


----------



## Rasmus Hartvig

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> I did say though, that individual themes for individual characters would only work for one-dimensional characters, and that it might be better if composers would stop treating complex characters as one-dimensional characters. But yes, I would be happy if composers would stop writing individual themes for individual characters.



Well, Star Wars is a remix of old myths and it's characters are more or less archetypes, so I think it's very appropriate with leitmotifs here. I do agree that it won't be the right choice for each and every movie, but when it comes to adventure, fantasy and space operas that tend to have very clearly defined characters, there's not really a reason not to reinforce that in the music.


----------



## Tatu

scottbuckley said:


> Michael Giacchino (who in fact played a Stormtrooper in the film - check out the credits!)


As a side note; I think that "The Award for Most Appearances in Blockbuster Movies in 2015" goes to Giacchino :D


----------



## pkm

I think there's a big distinction between "a theme for each character" and "a theme for each character, always played in the same manner".

You can vary a theme in infinite ways to score different sides and emotions of a character. And this is one of the things that John Williams excels at so much.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

ryans said:


> Are Star Wars movies not space operas? I've always thought of them as such... and Williams use of leitmotiv, seems so appropriate. Hard to imagine Star Wars without it.
> 
> Ryan




Touché! 

Of course, I'm not really concerned about any of this, but only few composers can really pull it off. You can't just transpose a melody and then think it can be used in a different context.

Even John Williams took this shortcut at the end of the 3rd prequel (to be pronounced as "turd prequel"). I remember listening to the Star Wars Episode 3 theme during the credits of the movie, thinking: "this is the worst possible key for this theme". I still don't understand why John Williams chose to just transpose the music, instead of transpose and then alter it, so it's more like a variation or a complementary theme. If Beethoven can do it, John Williams can do it too.

The point is that most of the time, those character themes are not just Leitmotivs, they have become outfits, costumes, fabrics, textures. Ideal for live shows like The Force Awakens On Ice (imagine BB-8 on skates, yikes!), but not functional to get the story across.These themes often lack subtlety, because the producer or studio demands instantly recognizable themes, because it's always easier to sell individual tracks than to sell a complete collection or album. Just ask Alan Menken and Celine Dion.

By the way, why does everyone think Michael Giacchino would be the man to replace John Williams? He's a great composer and I love his work, but for Star Wars there are even better options, like Joel McNeely, who is probably the most experienced of all candidates when it comes to Star Wars and Disney and the legacy of George Lucas. Check out McNeely's "Shadows of the Empire", his scores for "The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles" and "Return to Never-Land" (=Peter Pan 2). Just listen to the themes in Return to NeverLand and the way they've been orchestrated by McNeely, and you will know what I mean.

Let's hope John Williams will be able to complete the new SW trilogy, so we don't have to speculate about his succession. Meanwhile, let's hope Mickey Mouse will give the spin off Star Wars movies to the various candidates to prove themselves and/or to experiment. That would be very interesting!

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## Guy Rowland

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> The point is that most of the time, those character themes are not just Leitmotivs, they have become outfits, costumes, fabrics, textures. Ideal for live shows like The Force Awakens On Ice (imagine BB-8 on skates, yikes!), but not functional to get the story across.



Oh dear.

I'm not quite sure why you're picking this fight here, Jerome. Character themes have been with Star Wars since the first film. JW has always used, adapted and varied his character themes across the series and its made it part of the essential fabric of what makes Star Wars Star Wars. To pick on one obvious example, how Anakin's theme subtly echoes the Imperial March at some points. You don't think that's storytelling? Better storytelling than the scriptwriter, in that case.


----------



## Rasmus Hartvig

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> for Star Wars there are even better options, like Joel McNeely, who is probably the most experienced of all candidates when it comes to Star Wars and Disney and the legacy of George Lucas. Check out McNeely's "Shadows of the Empire", his scores for "The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles" and "Return to Never-Land" (=Peter Pan 2).



Hear hear! McNeely is one of the few remaining Hollywood-composers who can really do the golden age style and at least when it comes to orchestration live up to Williams. His compositions and themes are more "clean" (less steeped in the jazz-modalities that Williams slots in everywhere), but he would definitely be a great fit for Star Wars.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> To me, the love for individual musical themes for individual characters in movies is just a side-effect (or at least an epiphenomenon) of the current popularity of Cosplay. And you know what I think of Cosplay...? It's just nudism in disguise.



I had to highlight this, it just cracks me up for some reason.


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

Guy Rowland said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> I'm not quite sure why you're picking this fight here, Jerome. Character themes have been with Star Wars since the first film. JW has always used, adapted and varied his character themes across the series and its made it part of the essential fabric of what makes Star Wars Star Wars. To pick on one obvious example, how Anakin's theme subtly echoes the Imperial March at some points. You don't think that's storytelling? Better storytelling than the scriptwriter, in that case.



Guy, that's an excellent example, and you are right about that.

My point is that I don't think there are many composers who can pull this off. John Williams is one of the few who can do this convincingly. Composers like John Debney can do it too, as his excellent score for Liar Liar clearly shows, but if I remember correctly, James Newton Howard was involved in the scoring of that movie as well.

Personally, I prefer themes connected to story-elements instead of characters. That's probably why (talking about the prequels) I like the Love theme of Episode 2 much more than Anakin's theme introduced in Episode 1. Or maybe it's just me being sentimental, how would I know for sure?

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## RiffWraith

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Please, make sure your quotes are accurate. I never said individual themes for individual characters would turn them into one-dimensional characters.



Sorry dude - wasn't specifically trying to misquote you. Maybe it's a language thing.

Your exact comment was:

_do you agree that it's time to stop writing individual themes for individual characters, because it treats complex characters like one-dimensional, cliché characters..._

Which I took as

_individual themes for individual complex characters makes them into one-dimensional cliché characters._

Sorry if I misunderstood.

Cheers.


----------



## Daryl

I haven't seen it yet. I'm waiting until I can find time to go to the 4DX showing. That should be fun. 

D


----------



## sleepy hollow

Daryl said:


> go to the 4DX showing


----------



## Jerome Vonhogen

RiffWraith said:


> Sorry dude - wasn't specifically trying to misquote you. Sorry if I misunderstood.




Hey Jeffrey, no problem man! I only care about the discussion, since I'm here to learn, not to tell everyone what I believe is true. 

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## Hannes_F

timtom said:


> I have the Limited Deluxe Edition and as far as I know the only difference is that the limited version has in addition
> O-Card featuring cover artwork different from standard digipack, exclusive to this format
> Two CD sized lithographs.
> 
> So the music is the same, just some artwork in addition with the CD



Many thanks timtom! Bought (standard).


----------



## NoamL

Something that gets lost in the *leitmotif* discussion is that it's more than just having a musical universe of themes. If the themes appear the same way each time, only reorchestrated appropriately for each occasion, I would call that a *motif-medley* approach. That's what Howard Shore mostly did on LOTR. This approach includes the old trick of writing two or three themes that, little does the audience suspect, are pre-designed to fit together contrapuntally like a jigsaw puzzle in a climactic scene, which Michael Giacchino pulled off brilliantly on LOST several times.

A true leitmotivic approach is when you take themes and start to mutate and transform them with reharmonizations and motivic development. JW does so much in ESB with the first 7 notes of Luke's theme, and in this film with the few notes of Rey's theme.

It could be that a straightforward motif-medley approach is actually better for scoring today's films just because they're so overstuffed with other things for the audience to pay attention to.

Another strength of motif medleys is if you want themes with a very strong harmonic character. Think of Yoda's theme which almost always outlines a Lydian I-II, or the Rohan theme in LOTR which outlines the key notes of Dorian (iirc?) mode.


----------



## timtom

Hannes_F said:


> Many thanks timtom! Bought (standard).


You welcome!


----------



## Sebastianmu

Pasticcio said:


> Just saw it recently. Am I the only one who immediately got surprised how shitty & static the opening title sounded? I found the orchestration to be very static and boring multiple times in the film to be honest.
> 
> Not that it matters, since the film didn't allow much moments for the music anyway(Although I started shaking & almost cried a few times when it was).
> I don't think I've ever heard a Williams score been so cutted before.
> I though the mix was very annoying aswell, since everytime it sounded like the music wanted to do a thing it was interupted by the sound design, followed by a cut.
> 
> Listening to the soundtrack now though, and damn there's alot of goodness here to satisfy me :D


I had the same feelings about the music and the mix. 
I did love the look of the film, and to a fair degree - it's humor. 
BUT: Am I the only one who is really disappointed with the script? It's nothing but a newly cooked up version of Episode 4. There is ABOLUTELY NOTHING NEW happening in this film, just different characters filling the same positions and hitting the exact same plot points! It was essentially a remake of E4!


----------



## AlexRuger

NoamL said:


> @AlexRuger can you be more specific about what you mean here?
> I also felt that there was something strange compared to the prequels... and that the level of contrapuntalism and rich, dense detail in a lot of his scores 1993-2011 was not present here. But ghost writers? That is a biiig assumption...



Either ghost writers, or he composed some suites and a lot of the music was edited due to tons of picture changes, which would also account for the lack of finesse (the music can't be too hugely complicated, as you don't know what the picture will be like--needs more obvious sections and transitions). 

But the ghost writer thing also makes sense--I just can't see JW not writing how he writes. That finesse/contrpuntalism/rich detail/etc is his voice, and many cues were different in that regard by night and day. Some felt like HIM (and not just due to writing style, but also hitting beats the way he does, stuff like that), and other just simply didn't.

And all that said, I actually know someone that wrote a couple cues on TFA. So there was at least one ghost writer. And no I won't name names, sorry


----------



## AlexRuger

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> Maybe it's time to stop composing individual themes for individual characters. I never liked the idea of identifying characters via their respective musical themes. It's a one-dimensional approach that only works with one-dimensional characters.



Man, I just can not disagree with that more. Character themes aren't one-dimensional--the point is to boil down (hopefully) multi-dimensional characters into a musical statement that can be applied in different ways for varying effects at dramatically strategic points, while still revolving around the _core _that is _that character_. They're anything but one-dimensional.

Furthermore, a score without character themes is a score without cohesion. If you're _just _scoring the scene, in a sort of "pure" sense, your score will likely be an absolute mess, and seeing as character themes are the last bastion of melody in scores in general, a mess without melodies.

There are obvious exceptions--_There Will Be Blood _doesn't quite have anything that resembles melodies are themes, and it's a brilliant score, and in fact melodies would feel clunky and silly and out of place in that movie--but for a movie like _Star Wars? _No way.


----------



## Vlzmusic

Daryl said:


> I haven't seen it yet. I'm waiting until I can find time to go to the 4DX showing. That should be fun.
> 
> D



For heavens sake don`t do that!! We just back from it, and my wife, who is the the most anti-Star Wars person I know, said that she could even enjoy the film, the beautiful scenery and the 3D, if not this wacky piece of garbage. It has nothing to do with the filming group, its some outsourced post-production toy. Very annoying, and gets to the nerves 20 minutes into the movie...

But overall, I am more than impressed with this film`s crew ability to re-create the spirit of the original trilogy. I am still standing by my criticism of some stuff seen in the last trailer, specially the villain`s attributes, but surprisingly, there was much much more to this movie than the trailer suggested. I urge everyone on the fence to go and see it while it runs. Definitely not in 4dx, but I did like the 3D stuff. And I was lucky, that the local theater sound system played back the music in very present and vivid manner. I could very well sense the spatial cues of the orchestra, and the music felt very supportive.

Thumbs up to the makers, I didn`t come with high expectations, but was pleasantly surprised!


----------



## NoamL

AlexRuger said:


> So there was at least one ghost writer.



Ah well, that's kinda sad to learn. But I did feel their ghostly presence, as if some of the "Williamsisms" in the score were somebody referencing Williams rather than Williams being Williams.

I'm sure if someone called me up and said "Go write some Williams" I would have an awful lot more, and less tastefully timed, of this:







than the maestro himself


----------



## AlexRuger

Ha! And don't get too bummed out about this movie having some extra writers--you can find the names of additional composers for the other movies on IMDb. I'm sure their involvement wasn't huge, but even as incredible a composer as JW isn't free of the time constraints of Hollywood--especially at that point in his career, when he was younger and not the be-all end-all of film scoring.


----------



## Daryl

Vlzmusic said:


> For heavens sake don`t do that!! We just back from it, and my wife, who is the the most anti-Star Wars person I know, said that she could even enjoy the film, the beautiful scenery and the 3D, if not this wacky piece of garbage. It has nothing to do with the filming group, its some outsourced post-production toy. Very annoying, and gets to the nerves 20 minutes into the movie...


Bbbbbbbbut how am I going to stay awake without being continually thumped in the back????

D


----------



## Vlzmusic

Daryl said:


> Bbbbbbbbut how am I going to stay awake without being continually thumped in the back????
> 
> D


Exactly! The movie ended up being very good, so don`t spoil it with drunk shiatsu treatment.

P.S. There are bad smells in it, too.

P.S. Did anyone notice Leia`s resemblance to A. Merkel?


----------



## FriFlo

Sebastianmu said:


> I had the same feelings about the music and the mix.
> I did love the look of the film, and to a fair degree - it's humor.
> BUT: Am I the only one who is really disappointed with the script? It's nothing but a newly cooked up version of Episode 4. There is ABOLUTELY NOTHING NEW happening in this film, just different characters filling the same positions and hitting the exact same plot points! It was essentially a remake of E4!


Me, too. I feel like they were very afraid of fan expectations and went as safe as possible with this. The new stuff is in everything but the story ... so that aspect did not satisfy me at all.


----------



## Rodney Money

Ghostwriters don't bother me one bit. Is there one person working on sound design, one person working on special effects, or is there even just one director shooting the picture the entire time? Time is money, and the job needs to get done. 

Concerning the movie itself, I enjoyed it very much for being both fun and hitting some touching moments, but nothing surprised me concerning the story, it was episode IV, I did not notice the music at all except when I saw the old characters and said in my head, "Cue the theme, there's Vadar's helmet!"


----------



## toomanynotes

Just saw the movie today, it was ok. I can't imagine kids of today being in awe as we were with the original trilogy.
Disappointed, really wanted to like it. No originality- Seen it all before...sum terrible cgi too.
The magic is lost and the soul. John Williams was absent.
This is not the Starwars film you've been looking for. Disney has made sure of that.
Besides that, the film was ok. BUT the trailers are soooooo much better...oh and the toys!
Life sucks and I'm short of £13!


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr

Today I was seeing the movie and overall I like it I have to say. The story has here and there some far fetched things (without spoilering here), or lets say some of the character developments seem very far fetched and still some scenes offered some surprise which was good. Overall I liked the new main characters though I felt sometimes that they featured things from the old trilogy in a too striking way. Music was...well..not surprisingly a very solid J. Williams ..but still very uninspiring. Ecspecially in comparison to his works from the old trilogy. The effects and design of the movie were in my opinion great and overall I am looking forward to the sequel.


----------



## wbacer

Just got back from seeing Star Wars. After sitting through a half dozen trailers of up and coming Epic films to be released in 2016 all of which were overpowered with Epic Taiko drums, Epic 12 Horns, Epic Angelic Choirs, Epic Easter Island Hits and no Woodwinds, it was really refreshing to listen to a well orchestrated score with woodwinds and without the above so called usual Epic elements.


----------



## David Story

There were two associate conductors, Bill and Gustavo. And JoAnn Kane for music prep, mostly only a couple of people. No ghosts, no orchestrators, no mockups. I know this directly from them, and verified by his family and team. The orchestra was 78-90. There were a few rewrites, but most cues were accepted. The soundtrack album leaves out about 50 minutes of score used in the film, some of that is resorted on the Oscar promo soundtrack. 
When you listen to The Force Awakens you are hearing John Williams' music. His music and Larry Kasdan's screenplay are why the movie feels like Star Wars.


----------



## erica-grace

AlexRuger said:


> And all that said, I actually know someone that wrote a couple cues on TFA. So there was *at least one ghost writer*. And no I won't name names, sorry






David Story said:


> There were two associate conductors, Bill and Gustavo. And JoAnn Kane for music prep, mostly only a couple of people. *No ghosts*, no orchestrators, no mockups.



Hmmmmm........


----------



## David Story

Maybe they're referring to Lin-Manuel Miranda


----------



## Mundano

At first, i must present my self. Hello, i am a newcomer to this awesome community.

At second, as a musician i am, i must play now the devil's advocate: WE, musicians are very ego-centered. And one very important thing i have learned in my life and work as musician, is that the music isn't the star of the show when it's all about a film. A film is an integral piece of art, and music serves the whole organic being of a film, like an organ of the human body. Although the music is a Very Important Part (VIP) of any moving picture, it only serves for the good development of the piece of art.

I have seen the film today, i've grown with Star Wars. I do understand John Williams. He is a very mature musician now, and more, he is wise, his wisdom took him to became a modest musician. He put in the film the music the film was needing, NOT what the people (and musicians) was/were expecting of it. He is an awesome wise composer!! THUMBS UP!

The film is awesome and the music does its work fantastic! thank you G. Lucas, thank you J. Williams, fantastic work!


----------



## Rodney Money

Is it weird that the more I think about the movie, the less I like it compared to when I originally saw it? Does anyone else feel that way? Critiques are commenting on how the vilian is simply a whiney-vadar fanboy, how the script and writing is unoriginal, and people here have already commented on the music is uninspiring when compared to the movies before including the prequels.


----------



## David Story

The galaxy has a new hero and people love her. Thanks to Daisy, Larry, and John. They are why a giant blockbuster feels like A New Hope.


----------



## NoamL

I saw it a 2nd time, I liked the movie less (too much a JJ-style reboot/remake rather than its own story) but the score a lot more. It's growing on me fast.

Rey's theme & Kylo Ren's theme are the two stars of the score. Kylo's theme has a bit of the same shape as the Unicorn/Red Rackham theme from Tintin, and Rey's theme reminds me a little of a minor theme from Harry Potter III.

The score works well with the film, even on a 2nd viewing where I tried as hard as I could to pay attention to the music, I still got sucked into the picture. The fugal theme for the Resistance isn't a big deal and it doesn't need to be, the Resistance only shows up a few times in the film to do the obligatory toy-selling dogfight sequences.

Without spoilers I think the strength of the movie lies in its new cast, they are all good expressive actors, and the weakness of the movie lies in its reliance on cheap audience-aware jokes every 5 minutes (think _*Avengers*_) and a 3rd act that _heavily_ borrows from the original movies (think JJ's _*Star Trek* _and _*Into Darkness*_).

I went with some nonmusical friends and afterwards the first thing they asked me was *"Why did they need to re-record the Main Title?"* so lay audiences can definitely hear that it's not the same.

There is one climactic scene where Rey does something awesome (no spoilers), and we hear a snippet of ANH's score and I am *convinced* it is the original LSO recording. Just a total breath of fresh air to hear them.


----------



## steb74

Yes, the snippet that I'm sure you're talking about was tracked from the original SW and was (as far as I'm concerned) a horrific needle drop, for better or worse they should have let the original score play out.
That was a 'final nail' moment for me.


----------



## Aakaash Rao

toomanynotes said:


> Just saw the movie today, it was ok. I can't imagine kids of today being in awe as we were with the original trilogy.
> Disappointed, really wanted to like it. No originality- Seen it all before...sum terrible cgi too.
> The magic is lost and the soul. John Williams was absent.
> This is not the Starwars film you've been looking for. Disney has made sure of that.
> Besides that, the film was ok. BUT the trailers are soooooo much better...oh and the toys!
> Life sucks and I'm short of £13!


Clearly we are in the minority but I would have to agree. Abrams was clearly trying to evoke the same elements that made A New Hope such a great film, but I felt that a new SW movie -- just like all the ones before it -- called for innovation rather than simply wallowing in the universe that had already been constructed. Say what you will of the prequels, at least Lucas moved the series forward -- Abrams seems content with a remake. Regarding the score, although I thought Rey's Theme was well done, the cues were ultimately forgettable.


----------



## toomanynotes

Aakaash Rao said:


> Clearly we are in the minority but I would have to agree. Abrams was clearly trying to evoke the same elements that made A New Hope such a great film, but I felt that a new SW movie -- just like all the ones before it -- called for innovation rather than simply wallowing in the universe that had already been constructed. Say what you will of the prequels, at least Lucas moved the series forward -- Abrams seems content with a remake. Regarding the score, although I thought Rey's Theme was well done, the cues were ultimately forgettable.



Good, nowadays being in a minority is quite an exclusive club, (so was Lucas and Spielberg wink wink), still in my opinion it's painfully obvious the movie doesn't sustain any soul long in enough to work or capture one's attention. This is what Lucas managed to do with the prequels, he gave the films a meaning. I believed in the films. Im not saying im a great fan of them, but they were from the Lucas mind. The criticism were not fair as he had to follow up the originally trilogy, imagine that!? But still nearly delivered.

People were on the edge of their seats when Darth maul popped up, or Yoda (first time) ignited his Lightsabre against dooku...or Palpatine transforms into the emperor..Etc etc And the music was excellent!
I can't imagine anyone else with balls that big to have made those prequels with such a unrealistic expectations and still deliver some soul.

Force awakens is what happens when a fan directs. LOL It doesn't work, who can blame the director..impossible task. When the novelty wears off...wait n see. I have more respect for Lucas then ever...next time i hear anyone say 'i cld do better, blah blah can do it better' I'll just roll my eyes...idiots. Be original...make your own story/movie.

Yes Rey's theme is excellent, but only because the bits i liked were lifted from J William's The Map room. One of my favs. )

Let's face it...the movie is not all that,yes there was a couple of moments that worked intermittently & great to see the usual characters...but hardly excited to see the next installment..would be interesting to see it work.

Merry Christmas!!


----------



## marclawsonmusic

Just saw it. For the most part, it felt like a Star Wars film to me. I share a lot of the same criticisms voiced on this thread, but overall it was a fun ride and certainly MUCH better than the last reboot of the series (ep. 1, 2 and 3).

To me, one thing that was missing was a sense of _conflict _between the characters. After re-watching the first 3 films again (ep. 4,5 and 6), it hit me how much these people simply didn't like each other... but were _forced _into working together to achieve their own ends - ultimately benefiting the galaxy (and each other, for that matter). But I guess we are too P.C. for that sort of thing today...
_
"Forced" _- see what I did there? Hahaha


----------



## Zhao Shen

toomanynotes said:


> Good, nowadays being in a minority is quite an exclusive club, (so was Lucas and Spielberg wink wink), still in my opinion it's painfully obvious the movie doesn't sustain any soul long in enough to work or capture one's attention. This is what Lucas managed to do with the prequels, he gave the films a meaning. I believed in the films. Im not saying im a great fan of them, but they were from the Lucas mind. The criticism were not fair as he had to follow up the originally trilogy, imagine that!? But still nearly delivered.
> 
> People were on the edge of their seats when Darth maul popped up, or Yoda (first time) ignited his Lightsabre against dooku...or Palpatine transforms into the emperor..Etc etc And the music was excellent!
> I can't imagine anyone else with balls that big to have made those prequels with such a unrealistic expectations and still deliver some soul.
> 
> Force awakens is what happens when a fan directs. LOL It doesn't work, who can blame the director..impossible task. When the novelty wears off...wait n see. I have more respect for Lucas then ever...next time i hear anyone say 'i cld do better, blah blah can do it better' I'll just roll my eyes...idiots. Be original...make your own story/movie.
> 
> Yes Rey's theme is excellent, but only because the bits i liked were lifted from J William's The Map room. One of my favs. )
> 
> Let's face it...the movie is not all that,yes there was a couple of moments that worked intermittently & great to see the usual characters...but hardly excited to see the next installment..would be interesting to see it work.
> 
> Merry Christmas!!


Just to express a different point of view, I disagree on just about every count. The prequels were (IMO) pretty terrible - the only joy I find in them nowadays comes from the fact that they are part of Star Wars. Aside from a handful of good characters and specific scenes, they lack...well, everything else.

Force Awakens is what happens when Disney decides to play it safe. It's not even quite fair to judge it yet since it's the first part of a trilogy. It's incredibly well-made in term of direction, cinematography, and all the technical parts. I thought the music was great - definitely more underscore-ish with no amazingly contagious theme, but it is still Williams, and made the movie truly Star Wars (honestly, I shudder to think of what the first movie without Williams will be like). The motif from the beginning of "Abduction" (and later echoed in "The Ways of the Force") has been in my head an awful lot lately.

They did borrow A LOT from ANH (Starkiller base was probably the most disappointing copy/paste) but for me personally, TFA brought enough new material to enjoy on its own. Watched the film a second time and enjoyed it even more (although nothing could beat the audience I was with at the premiere). Was an absolute joy to see Abrams' style infused into such a classic franchise, and I can't wait to see how Episode VIII plays out.


----------



## toomanynotes

Zhao Shen said:


> Just to express a different point of view, I disagree on just about every count. The prequels were (IMO) pretty terrible - the only joy I find in them nowadays comes from the fact that they are part of Star Wars. Aside from a handful of good characters and specific scenes, they lack...well, everything else.
> 
> Force Awakens is what happens when Disney decides to play it safe. It's not even quite fair to judge it yet since it's the first part of a trilogy. It's incredibly well-made in term of direction, cinematography, and all the technical parts. I thought the music was great - definitely more underscore-ish with no amazingly contagious theme, but it is still Williams, and made the movie truly Star Wars (honestly, I shudder to think of what the first movie without Williams will be like). The motif from the beginning of "Abduction" (and later echoed in "The Ways of the Force") has been in my head an awful lot lately.
> 
> They did borrow A LOT from ANH (Starkiller base was probably the most disappointing copy/paste) but for me personally, TFA brought enough new material to enjoy on its own. Watched the film a second time and enjoyed it even more (although nothing could beat the audience I was with at the premiere). Was an absolute joy to see Abrams' style infused into such a classic franchise, and I can't wait to see how Episode VIII plays out.



I wish i saw the same movie. Maybe the english cinemas dont spike their soda or popcorn. haha, just joking!
I must say, when i forced watched the prequels on my cinema projector i started to like them slightly too. 
I'll wait till it's on TV i think. )


----------



## toomanynotes

marclawsonmusic said:


> Just saw it. For the most part, it felt like a Star Wars film to me. I share a lot of the same criticisms voiced on this thread, but overall it was a fun ride and certainly MUCH better than the last reboot of the series (ep. 1, 2 and 3).
> 
> To me, one thing that was missing was a sense of _conflict _between the characters. After re-watching the first 3 films again (ep. 4,5 and 6), it hit me how much these people simply didn't like each other... but were _forced _into working together to achieve their own ends - ultimately benefiting the galaxy (and each other, for that matter). But I guess we are too P.C. for that sort of thing today...
> _
> "Forced" _- see what I did there? Hahaha


i did! i did!


----------



## Guy Rowland

toomanynotes said:


> Good, nowadays being in a minority is quite an exclusive club, (so was Lucas and Spielberg wink wink), still in my opinion it's painfully obvious the movie doesn't sustain any soul long in enough to work or capture one's attention. This is what Lucas managed to do with the prequels, he gave the films a meaning. I believed in the films. Im not saying im a great fan of them, but they were from the Lucas mind. The criticism were not fair as he had to follow up the originally trilogy, imagine that!? But still nearly delivered.
> 
> People were on the edge of their seats when Darth maul popped up, or Yoda (first time) ignited his Lightsabre against dooku...or Palpatine transforms into the emperor..Etc etc And the music was excellent!
> I can't imagine anyone else with balls that big to have made those prequels with such a unrealistic expectations and still deliver some soul.
> 
> Force awakens is what happens when a fan directs. LOL It doesn't work, who can blame the director..impossible task. When the novelty wears off...wait n see. I have more respect for Lucas then ever...next time i hear anyone say 'i cld do better, blah blah can do it better' I'll just roll my eyes...idiots. Be original...make your own story/movie.
> 
> Yes Rey's theme is excellent, but only because the bits i liked were lifted from J William's The Map room. One of my favs. )
> 
> Let's face it...the movie is not all that,yes there was a couple of moments that worked intermittently & great to see the usual characters...but hardly excited to see the next installment..would be interesting to see it work.
> 
> Merry Christmas!!



It's a fascinating thesis, and there's some grains of real truth there. But... um.... well. No.

The prequels had a really compelling idea at their core which was - why would people vote in the Nazi party? Exploring that from a sci-fi perspective is such a delicious prospect. And therefore it makes the prequels' failure all the more lamentable.... this was no mere bad idea tossed away, there was real fascinating magic that we were all denied. On any conceivable level - except music and sound design - those films were an absolute travesty of filmmaking. The scripts and their characters were abominations - if you've never seen it, Red Letter Media's celebrated take-down of The Phantom Meanace is as hilarious as it is uncannily insightful:

 . 

The acting was atrocious (doubly scandalous as it was a stellar cast, which only puts the blame in one place). And the whole world a rather poor cartoon - I vivdly remember seeing a shot of a real lake (in Italy I think it was filmed) in Episode II where my eyeballs wept from relief at suddenly seeing something real-looking. So whatever misgivings one may have about Episode 7, let's not go down the revisionist path of declaring those prequels misunderstood works of genius.

But Episode 7 isn't perfect either. It lacks a really compelling core, some central idea that could rival "why would people vote in the Nazi party?". It's a good ol maguffin narrative, and a plot taken off the shelf labelled "A New Hope". What is perhaps therefore all the more surprising is in how little that matters. Although they're hitting the same plot points, it feels fresh, it feels new again. The single biggest thing Arndt, Kasdan and Abrams did right was to put new characters at the core of the story, all skewed or completely changed from their Episode IV counterparts. Rey shares DNA (literally?) with Luke, but is a very different character; Finn is completely new ground. Even little BB8 has his own distinct personality. With different characters come different motivations, so the driving force of the film feels very different to IV, despite the obvious links. And of course not only are they different, they are GOOD - well written, well acted. John Boyega has so much real life charisma and humour, I'm rather giddy at the prospect of spending more Star Wars time with him. BB-8 is a sparky charmer, and Daisy Ridley plain kicks ass.

Actually on reflection, one of the things I missed most in ep 7 was the lack of a single compelling action setpiece. We had fine action aplenty, but nothing so distinctive as in IV the Death Star attack; V the AT-AT attack; VI the lightspeeders; I the Podrace (the single unashamedly good moment in any of the prequels for my money, and one of Ben Burtt's absolute finest hours). II and III had zip.


----------



## toomanynotes

Guy Rowland said:


> It's a fascinating thesis, and there's some grains of real truth there. But... um.... well. No.
> 
> The prequels had a really compelling idea at their core which was - why would people vote in the Nazi party? Exploring that from a sci-fi perspective is such a delicious prospect. And therefore it makes the prequels' failure all the more lamentable.... this was no mere bad idea tossed away, there was real fascinating magic that we were all denied. On any conceivable level - except music and sound design - those films were an absolute travesty of filmmaking. The scripts and their characters were abominations - if you've never seen it, Red Letter Media's celebrated take-down of The Phantom Meanace is as hilarious as it is uncannily insightful:
> 
> .
> 
> The acting was atrocious (doubly scandalous as it was a stellar cast, which only puts the blame in one place). And the whole world a rather poor cartoon - I vivdly remember seeing a shot of a real lake (in Italy I think it was filmed) in Episode II where my eyeballs wept from relief at suddenly seeing something real-looking. So whatever misgivings one may have about Episode 7, let's not go down the revisionist path of declaring those prequels misunderstood works of genius.
> 
> But Episode 7 isn't perfect either. It lacks a really compelling core, some central idea that could rival "why would people vote in the Nazi party?". It's a good ol maguffin narrative, and a plot taken off the shelf labelled "A New Hope". What is perhaps therefore all the more surprising is in how little that matters. Although they're hitting the same plot points, it feels fresh, it feels new again. The single biggest thing Arndt, Kasdan and Abrams did right was to put new characters at the core of the story, all skewed or completely changed from their Episode IV counterparts. Rey shares DNA (literally?) with Luke, but is a very different character; Finn is completely new ground. Even little BB8 has his own distinct personality. With different characters come different motivations, so the driving force of the film feels very different to IV, despite the obvious links. And of course not only are they different, they are GOOD - well written, well acted. John Boyega has so much real life charisma and humour, I'm rather giddy at the prospect of spending more Star Wars time with him. BB-8 is a sparky charmer, and Daisy Ridley plain kicks ass.
> 
> Actually on reflection, one of the things I missed most in ep 7 was the lack of a single compelling action setpiece. We had fine action aplenty, but nothing so distinctive as in IV the Death Star attack; V the AT-AT attack; VI the lightspeeders; I the Podrace (the single unashamedly good moment in any of the prequels for my money, and one of Ben Burtt's absolute finest hours. II and III had zip.




Felt like Dawson's creek in space.  seriously it's my own problem that im pissed. Oh well...look forward to the family guy version.


----------



## Sebastianmu

Guy Rowland said:


> Although they're hitting the same plot points, it feels fresh, it feels new again.


... um.... well. No.

EDIT: To be not just snotty - this NYT article sums up nicely what is wrong with a 95% _freshness _rating for TFA on rotten tomatoes:

"Star Wars and Decadence" http://nyti.ms/1TcHHl2


----------



## resound

Finally saw TFA tonight and I really enjoyed it. At first, I was a little bothered that the movie followed the same main plot points of A New Hope but the more I think about it I think it was a good move. It was obviously a conscious and safe decision. The characters even poke fun throughout the movie at the fact that we have seen this before. But TFA accomplishes a few things: it creates nostalgia for long time fans, it introduces the Star Wars universe to the new generation, many of which have never seen the original trilogy, and it also sets up the two movies that will follow. If the next two movies just followed the plots of Empire and Return of the Jedi, then I think everyone would be disappointed. But they have the opportunity to take the story to completely new places and I am excited to see what happens next. 

I had the same reaction to the opening sequence, however. It was pretty lackluster compared to the original trilogy. I don't know if it is the mix, the room or just the performance, but the fanfare just lacks power. It also doesn't have the same effect without the 20th Century Fox theme preceding it. I really missed that. I thought the score served the movie really well and there were beautiful moments where old themes were used, but I didn't really walk away singing any of the new themes.


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## devastat

Interesting insight into making the Force Awakens score


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## Jerome Vonhogen

Thanks a lot for posting this video. This is very interesting!

Does anyone know why Shawn Murphy says John Williams doesn't use orchestrators? Everyone knows JW has great orchestrators working for him on all his movie scores. We know their names and you can actually see what their exact contribution was by checking the manuscripts that fans have managed to collect over the years.

I wonder why it's such a problem to acknowledge the importance of orchestrators and to give them the credits they deserve. Sure, John Williams could do the entire score without any help; we all know that, but saying he writes all of his scores without any help is like Harrison Ford saying that he does all the stunts himself. Of course he tried that during the shooting of TFA, and guess what? He broke his leg on the set, and as a consequence J.J.Abrams broke his back while trying to help.

Maybe it's just denial of old age, after all, we are talking about really old men here who are near the end of their successful career. Nothing wrong with old people, it's just that they tend to forget certain things; things like gravity, as Harrison Ford recently demonstrated when he crash-landed his World War I biplane on a golf course while shouting "Chewie, we're home!".

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## ed buller

to be fair i'm almost certain he didn't mean "Orchestrators" in the traditional sense. Anyone who works as much as he does in film scoring knows that JW writes on eight stave paper, clearly marked for each instruments, and an Orchestrator would take that and clean it up. Spread it out basically. Whereas there are many composers who will need input into "orchestration", who plays what and how......THAT...JW doesn't need !

e


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## RiffWraith

Shawn Murphy said:


> His composition, his writing is complete. He doesn't use orchestrators generally.



Yeah - Shawn misspoke there. While I agree that the composition and writing are complete, the entire planet knows JW uses orchestrators. Orchestrators are even properly credited on the OSTs. I was, for a moment, tempted to say that he might have meant _ghostwriters _but that wouldn't be it, b/c of the word_ generally_. Which would imply that JW does use GWs; even if he did, Shawn Murphy would never in a gazillion years make that public. Slip of the tongue, I guess.


Cheers.


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## Rodney Money

Once again, in my personal opinion and in all due respect, "Who cares if he uses ghostwriters or not?" He's writing for movies, he's not writing a symphony. Now before all of you start getting red in the face uploading your CineSample's Monster Low Brass to BRAHHHMMMSSS me, I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm simply saying the different style of writings have different goals.


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## NoamL

"Zam The Assassin" is one of my favorite tracks too. The first time you hear it and you're like, "Is... is that a John-Williams-written _electric guitar solo_?"


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## devastat

A fun fact - Thomas Newman orchestrated a cue in Return of the Jedi (the scene where Darth Vader dies).


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## Rodney Money

NoamL said:


> "Zam The Assassin" is one of my favorite tracks too. The first time you hear it and you're like, "Is... is that a John-Williams-written _electric guitar solo_?"


I remember that!


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## steb74

devastat said:


> A fun fact - Thomas Newman orchestrated a cue in Return of the Jedi (the scene where Darth Vader dies).


I've heard that too ...I can't remember where though now (maybe a Newman interview?) but I never knew which cue he worked on.
You don't happen to have a link to an interview please or perhaps remember where you heard about it?
Or even if you have any more info about it, I'd be very interested in hearing it.
Cheers


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## AlexRuger

NoamL said:


> "Zam The Assassin" is one of my favorite tracks too. The first time you hear it and you're like, "Is... is that a John-Williams-written _electric guitar solo_?"



Oof. That's my least favorite moment in any of JW's scores...guitar just feels so out of place in Star Wars.

For the same reason, the jazz fusion cue in the first act of Hook is actually one of my favorites. Makes no sense in context and is such a strange genre to hear JW write for, but I love it (and it sounds exactly like Chick Corea et all from the period, absolutely spot on).


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## Jerome Vonhogen

ed buller said:


> Anyone who works as much as he does in film scoring knows that JW writes on eight stave paper, clearly marked for each instruments, and an Orchestrator would take that and clean it up. Spread it out basically.




With all due respect, this is simply not true. Either you made that up yourself, or you didn't check your facts.

Many of the best moments in John Williams' music have been orchestrated by other composers and orchestrators.

One of the best orchestrators I've ever seen was the late Angela Morley, a multiple Emmy Award winning and multiple Oscar nominated composer, conductor and orchestrator. She has worked on many scores by John Williams, including E.T., Home Alone I & II, Superman (notably the Ice Palace scenes), Hook, Star Wars (for instance, the Death Star Trench scene), The Empire Strikes Back, Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones, Schindler's List (for instance, the Viennese walzes), etcetera.

I don't care whether or not John Williams can do the orchestrations himself without any help, fact of the matter is that he always had help from the most brilliant composers and orchestrators, and there is no mystery to it because they have all been hand-picked by John Williams himself.

I hate it when brilliant people working in the background, in the shadow of giants, don't get the credits they deserve, so please don't make up stories. We all love John Williams' music, but I love Angela Morley's 'oevre' just as much (check out for example her wonderful scores for Captain Nemo and Watership Down, and you will know what I mean).

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Jerome Vonhogen

devastat said:


> A fun fact - Thomas Newman orchestrated a cue in Return of the Jedi (the scene where Darth Vader dies).



Thanks, I didn't know this! 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## devastat

steb74 said:


> You don't happen to have a link to an interview please or perhaps remember where you heard about it?
> Or even if you have any more info about it, I'd be very interested in hearing it.
> Cheers



I believe it was mentioned in this radio interview on NPR radio - http://www.npr.org/2015/10/17/44941...wman-teams-with-spielberg-for-bridge-of-spies

Apparently his father Alfred Newman encouraged John Williams to become a film composer.


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## steb74

Great, thanks for the link!


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## PhJ

devastat said:


> A fun fact - Thomas Newman orchestrated a cue in Return of the Jedi (the scene where Darth Vader dies).


Darth Vader dies ? 
Dude, I thought this was a No Spoiler thread !! 


(more seriously, nice tidbit of info)


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## Sebastianmu

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> With all due respect, this is simply not true. Either you made that up yourself, or you didn't check your facts.
> 
> Many of the best moments in John Williams' music have been orchestrated by other composers and orchestrators.
> 
> One of the best orchestrators I've ever seen was the late Angela Morley, a multiple Emmy Award winning and multiple Oscar nominated composer, conductor and orchestrator. She has worked on many scores by John Williams, including E.T., Home Alone I & II, Superman (notably the Ice Palace scenes), Hook, Star Wars (for instance, the Death Star Trench scene), The Empire Strikes Back, Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones, Schindler's List (for instance, the Viennese walzes), etcetera.
> 
> I don't care whether or not John Williams can do the orchestrations himself without any help, fact of the matter is that he always had help from the most brilliant composers and orchestrators, and there is no mystery to it because they have all been hand-picked by John Williams himself.
> 
> I hate it when brilliant people working in the background, in the shadow of giants, don't get the credits they deserve, so please don't make up stories. We all love John Williams' music, but I love Angela Morley's 'oevre' just as much (check out for example her wonderful scores for Captain Nemo and Watership Down, and you will know what I mean).
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen



Thanks, I didn't know about Angela Morley before!
But I also like to add that there was a perceptible change in the sound of Williams' orchestral writing right after Herbert Spencer died, that would be inexplicable if JW actually wrote _absolutely everything_ into his 6-8 staff papers.


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## Daryl

Saw it. Enjoyed it. Won't see it again for a while.

D


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## TGV

Entertaining film, cheesy moments, lousy dialogs, great music: it's a true remake of the first StarWars movie.


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## Jerome Vonhogen

Sebastianmu said:


> Thanks, I didn't know about Angela Morley before!


 

Maybe that's because she used to be a well-known "he" named Walter Stott (note that I didn't put the word "she" between quotation marks, except in this sentence telling you that I didn't ).

Walter Stott changed her name to Angela Morley in 1972 following so-called 'reassignment' surgery.

Remember that scene in Star Wars; A New Hope where Luke tries to concentrate on his task of dropping a bomb into the Death Star while being chased inside a trench by his [Spoiler Allert!] father, and then Uncle Obi starts to yell in his ear that he should trust his untrained Jedi instincts instead of his super-accurate state-of-the-art board computer + R2D2?

(And let's face it, why wouldn't he listen to the crazy advise of a dead Jedi who couldn't even handle Luke's father when he was going through Jedi-puberty? I mean, what could go wrong, right? It's just his sister plus the only friends he's got left in the universe that are about to be blown up by the Death Star, so why not try something completely irresponsible instead of just doing his job without showing off his uncontrolled and unmatured Jedi-instincts?)

Anyway, when Uncle Ben says "Luke, use the force!", the music you hear was done by Angela Morley.

If you want to know what an amazing talent Angela Morley was as a composer, I'd recommend her scores for 'Captain Nemo and the Underwater World' and 'Watership Down' (by the way, the first six minutes of the score were written by Malcolm Williamson who she had to replace when he became ill).

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Jerome Vonhogen

TGV said:


> Entertaining film, cheesy moments, lousy dialogs, great music: it's a true remake of the first StarWars movie.


 

Disney had to reassure the first generation of fans to whom Star Wars is a religion. The first thing they had to do was (re-)writing the Star Wars canon. Rather than throwing out those apocryphal prequels and declare them herecies, they felt they had to leave them in the new Star Wars bible, so they had to find another way to make it clear to the fans that in Disney's Star Wars canon, only the first trilogy (i.e. Ep.4-6) had true 'gospel-status'.

What better way to do so, than to write a second gospel about the life of Luke Skywalker, Mr. Mouse must have thought. Just like the four canonical gospel books in the New Testament all tell the same story about Jezus (more or less), The Force Awakens is basically the same narrative as in New Hope, but this time it's written by another evangelist, Abrams (the first Star Wars evangelist, of course, being Lucas).

It took 400 years and many international councils to select, shape, and define the Christian canon, whereas the Star Wars canon had to be written in just 40 years. I cannot blame Mickey for revisiting and rebooting Episode IV, because by doing so he managed to unite at least two generations of fans and therefore prevented a schism (church split) among followers, like in the dark age of the prequels.

Another way to look at TFA, is to see it as an allegory rather than just a story or adventure, just like Orwell's Animal Farm can be seen as an allegory of the horrors of the Russian Revolution, and Tolkien's Lord of the Rings as an allegory of World War I&II (although sometimes the author made it look like he was allergic to allegories, at least in general).

Star Wars is like an allegory of the eternal human struggle between good and evil. Maybe that's why I didn't like the explicit reference to Goebbels' Total War speech when Domhnhmnalhllnll Gleeson showed his amazing talent for overacting as General Sux before a crowd of CGI rendered nazi-troopers.

Anyway, maybe we should remember that movies are not books, and that film music is not the same as classical music. Let's just enjoy the ride, and then move on with our lives. 

- Jerome Vonhögen


----------



## TGV

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> What better way to do so, than to write a second gospel about the life of Luke Skywalker, Mr. Mouse must have thought.


If the evangelists are Lucas and Abrams, then Disney has the role of ... the deity? I can already imagine the scene where the protagonist is nailed to some ugly contraption, the sky opens, and Walt Disney himself appears and says: "I'm your father, Rey".


----------



## dgburns

some thoughts,hopefully general so as not to spoil-

Saw the movie last night.Had in the back of my head some comment from this thread that they didn't think the music was up front or effective or something to that effect.

So to my surprise I found the music very upfront and very effective.Found the overall orchestra sound to be very close to the original sound from over in the uk studio.Also was happy to see the music mixed fairly loud and very clear.Some themes were very welcome,especially the more romantic ones,which used strings to great effect,especially what sounded like sordino sections,especially the violas or lower register violins(sounded like it was from the left side).Very traditional orch panning,as the french horns would occasionally blast out from the left(fun and welcome to me).Was it me or was there alot less timp then the original scores?

-surprised to hear so much flute writing however,it kinda bugged me to say the truth.
-surprised at what I thought was a lack of low end compared to many modern scores.didn't mind it though.

I got the impression that the score got mixed and the only thing in re-recording was maybe volume rides,but that's it.A very organic and believable collection of instruments.sfx and mx co-existed well.

I did feel nostalgic alot,and I think that's a big part of the appeal for me.


----------



## Mundano

Mundano said:


> At first, i must present my self. Hello, i am a newcomer to this awesome community.
> 
> At second, as a musician i am, i must play now the devil's advocate: WE, musicians are very ego-centered. And one very important thing i have learned in my life and work as musician, is that the music isn't the star of the show when it's all about a film. A film is an integral piece of art, and music serves the whole organic being of a film, like an organ of the human body. Although the music is a Very Important Part (VIP) of any moving picture, it only serves for the good development of the piece of art.
> 
> I have seen the film today, i've grown with Star Wars. I do understand John Williams. He is a very mature musician now, and more, he is wise, his wisdom took him to became a modest musician. He put in the film the music the film was needing, NOT what the people (and musicians) was/were expecting of it. He is an awesome wise composer!! THUMBS UP!
> 
> The film is awesome and the music does its work fantastic! thank you G. Lucas, thank you J. Williams, fantastic work!



here i will paste an excerpt of an article that does honor to what i've written previously:

http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/force_awakens.html

" With the diluted *Star Wars* concept already spread across video games and television cartoon series, the famous music of John Williams for the universe, although intact in its own branding duties, had already taken a hit in its mystique. Part of this diminishment over time is due to the maestro's own scores for the three prequel films of 1999 to 2005, music of extremely high quality, no doubt, but not achieving the classic status of the original trilogy of scores. After a busy 2005 that featured a somewhat discombobulated *Revenge of the Sith* score, Williams slipped into semi-retirement, returning only occasionally for feature projects of his choice as his health allowed. It was largely assumed at the conclusion of the prequel trilogy that Williams was finished with the concept due to his advanced age, and fans were appropriately jubilant that at least he had retained enough of his health to participate in those projects. Amazingly, after battling heart conditions in his 80's that sidelined him from his conducting duties and a collaboration with director Steven Spielberg, he managed a triumphant return once again to *Star Wars* in 2015 with largely only the assistance of orchestrator and conductor William Ross, with whom Williams has maintained a long collaboration. To experience a new Williams *Star Wars* score thirty-two years after *Return of the Jedi* is nothing less than stunning, especially considering his laborious process of writing by pen and paper sans all the technological aids available to composers of younger generations. Williams wrote and recorded nearly three hours of music for *The Force Awakens*, its sessions spread over a lengthy, five-month period and the bulk of which resulting from the composer's own orchestrations. Ross conducted most early sessions but Williams stepped in himself as an hour of his music was dropped and the final two hours of material solidified. Interestingly, promising Venezuelan conductor (and emerging composer) Gustavo Dudamel, winner of several conducting competitions over the previous ten years, was asked on a whim by Williams at the sessions to conduct the opening and closing credits sequences for *The Force Awakens*. In a departure from the previous *Star Wars* scores, Williams compiled a collection of 90 orchestral and 24 male choral voices mainly in Los Angeles for this project, choosing not to employ the London Symphony Orchestra for practical concerns. Two cantina source songs needed for the film were bypassed by Williams, Broadway composer Lin-Manuel Miranda instead taking the lead on those wackier recordings.

While it is not uncommon for a fair amount of a score from any composer to experience significant alterations in post-processing editing of both the film and the soundtrack's album, Williams' music for the prequel scores were almost absurdly manipulated for both. Fortunately, while there was significant micro-editing exercised in *The Force Awakens*, some of it by Williams' own particular choices in the case of the album, there is refreshing synchrony between film and album in a larger sense with this project. Sure, there are the three seconds snipped here and there, alternate recordings dropped in somewhat blatantly, and a few trackings that betray their origins elsewhere in the picture, but compared to the prequels, Williams enthusiasts have to be pleased by the general reverence with which the maestro's music was treated here on screen. The effectiveness of Williams' score in context is outstanding, a better connection to the musical narrative of the original three soundtracks achieved while also exhibiting the increasingly frenetic complexities of the prequels. The quality of writing in *The Force Awakens*, regardless of the inevitable debates between fans and music collectors regarding the placement of this theme or that, is stunningly accomplished, a reflection of Williams at his prime. The orchestrations alone are worthy of review, in part because of the composer's knack for applying tried and tested classical and film music techniques in remarkably fresh and effective ways. But also of interest is the clear difference in the performance tone of the score due to its recording outside London and without some of the accents of the prequel scores. Mainstream ears will note that the prequels' choral and electronic embellishments, outside of the deep throat-singing for the emperor-like villain of this entry, are gone, leaving *The Force Awakens* as more of an original-trilogy style of score. While you hear Williams employ harp and woodwinds in ways few composers do in the younger generation, the goldmine of discussion in this score should result from the brass, which is a definite, distinguishing characteristic of this new trilogy. While Williams' strings retain much of the same character as they always have, the brass players in Los Angeles feature a much darker, more abrasive tone, especially in the French horns. Gone is the warmth that you encounter from the London horns, replaced by a gritty edge simply due to the difference in the actual model of horns preferred by these new performers. Expect to hear this change in the villain's theme and the many muted performances by horns and trumpets (the latter in triple-tongued duty as usual).

The slightly more brutal tone of orchestration suits *The Force Awakens* well, and casual ears tuned recently to Howard Shore's unyieldingly oppressive applications in his Middle Earth scores may not notice Williams' subtle shift darker. More obvious to those listeners will be the composer's thematic tendencies, for better or for worse. You witness countless criticisms of *The Force Awakens* that revolve around the notion that Williams failed to write themes for the picture that you can retain in your memory after the conclusion of the film, and such comments are cheap and without perspective. Only *A New Hope* and *The Empire Strikes Back*, two truly transcendent, classic scores atop the "best of" lists of all time, contained game-changing themes destined to be heard in sports arenas for decades to come. While *The Force Awakens*, like the four previous scores in the franchise, does not reach those heights, it's arguably closer than all the others. Between the two primary new themes in *The Force Awakens*, you have material that is not only short and memorable in the case of the villain but flowingly lovely and inspirational in the case of the new heroine in ways that compete with the love theme from *Attack of the Clones*in terms of tonal majesty. Williams' ability to manipulate the level of tonality in the harmony of chords supporting his themes remains unchallenged in cinema today, no other composer capable of expressing so much dynamic range of emotion with the same set of progressions. He is the master of anticipatory bass enhancement to a theme, holding back the bass region's harmonic resonance during a theme to denote anticipation, turmoil, or immaturity in the story, the melody sounding seemingly unresolved except in specific instances of unison performances deemed worthy of resolution. Likewise, Williams has created a stable of motific ideas for this franchise based on minor-third progressions, and don't be surprised if you hear shadows of the Imperial March (essentially constructed wholly out of that progression) in the themes representing those connected to Vader by lineage. In some cases, it might entail ascending minor thirds rather than the descending variety more famously associated with the franchise, but such is the need of a hero's musical response. Also vital in a general sense of thematic attributes in *The Force Awakens* is Williams' better ability in this continuance of story from the original trilogy to apply those films' themes to more naturally satisfying and frequent ends. Expect to hear much more due influence of *A New Hope*, in other words. "


----------



## toomanynotes

Sebastianmu said:


> ... um.... well. No.
> 
> EDIT: To be not just snotty - this NYT article sums up nicely what is wrong with a 95% _freshness _rating for TFA on rotten tomatoes:
> 
> "Star Wars and Decadence" http://nyti.ms/1TcHHl2


agreed.


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## Guy Rowland

Thanks for posting Mundano, very good article that also suggests a reconciliation between seemingly contradictory facts bartered here.


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## Mundano

Guy Rowland said:


> Thanks for posting Mundano, very good article that also suggests a reconciliation between seemingly contradictory facts bartered here.


the article is longer though and with appended information about the process, follow the link to read it complete! cheers!


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## whinecellar

So I saw TFA for the 4th time last night - 2nd time in this particular room. And I was pleasantly shocked at how much better the score sounded this time. The opening credits in particular were significantly better - bigger - than my first 3 viewings. And it wasn't just a sonic difference; it sounded like a different performance. My first thought: did Disney go back for a mid-release remix?!?

Without getting into detail, I just talked to a VERY well-connected friend of mine today, and apparently the answer is yes. More than that, some cues were actually re-recorded. In London. The issues many of us noticed early on were apparently noticed at the top - and addressed.

Very, very interesting. Brings up lots of questions. Just glad to know I wasn't the only one who thought it sounded better at Abbey Road...

Flame suit at the ready


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## rpaillot

whinecellar said:


> So I saw TFA for the 4th time last night - 2nd time in this particular room. And I was pleasantly shocked at how much better the score sounded this time. The opening credits in particular were significantly better - bigger - than my first 3 viewings. And it wasn't just a sonic difference; it sounded like a different performance. My first thought: did Disney go back for a mid-release remix?!?
> 
> Without getting into detail, I just talked to a VERY well-connected friend of mine today, and apparently the answer is yes. More than that, some cues were actually re-recorded. In London. The issues many of us noticed early on were apparently noticed at the top - and addressed.
> 
> Very, very interesting. *Brings up lots of questions*. Just glad to know I wasn't the only one who thought it sounded better at Abbey Road...
> 
> Flame suit at the ready



Wow, incredible indeed, if that's true.

The only reason I would think of is, maybe the master himself asked to re-record the cues that he wasnt able to conduct when he had health issues.


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## germancomponist

whinecellar said:


> So I saw TFA for the 4th time last night - 2nd time in this particular room. And I was pleasantly shocked at how much better the score sounded this time. The opening credits in particular were significantly better - bigger - than my first 3 viewings. And it wasn't just a sonic difference; it sounded like a different performance. My first thought: did Disney go back for a mid-release remix?!?
> 
> Without getting into detail, I just talked to a VERY well-connected friend of mine today, and apparently the answer is yes. More than that, some cues were actually re-recorded. In London. The issues many of us noticed early on were apparently noticed at the top - and addressed.
> 
> Very, very interesting. Brings up lots of questions. Just glad to know I wasn't the only one who thought it sounded better at Abbey Road...
> 
> Flame suit at the ready


Huh...!
Let me get another glass of red wine before I write a comment.


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## whinecellar

germancomponist said:


> Huh...!
> Let me get another glass of red wine before I write a comment.



Ha - yeah, I debated the wisdom of even posting what I did... don't want to ruffle any feathers, but it's too good to pass up the potential commentary


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## whinecellar

rpaillot said:


> The only reason I would think of is, maybe the master himself asked to re-record the cues that he wasnt able to conduct when he had health issues.



According to my source, some of the Disney brass were underwhelmed especially with the opening titles for the same reasons several of us talked about here. I struggle with that because on a film of this importance you would think all of that would've had to pass approvals before release. Still, anything is possible, especially with Disney. Fascinating stuff.

I do know what I heard last night was vastly different than the prior screenings, one of which was in the same room. I'm sure I'll take heat for saying that, but there you go...


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## RiffWraith

whinecellar said:


> Without getting into detail, I just talked to a VERY well-connected friend of mine today, and apparently the answer is yes. More than that, some cues were actually re-recorded. In London. The issues many of us noticed early on were apparently noticed at the top - and addressed.



I am not going to say that there weren't any re-recordings done (I really do not know), but let's think for a moment about what you are saying.

We do not live in a world of magic and fairy dust. Therefore, if a new session was done, that music does not just automatically make it's way onto the prints. You know - the ones that are sitting in movie theaters across the globe.

Once the music is re-recorded, it has to go back to the dub stage, where a) a new music stem is made, and b) a new printmaster is made. Let's assume that it was just the opening credits that were re-recorded, so we would only be talking about 1A/B, as opposed to the entire film.

Then, that pm is used to shoot another optical track negative, and then that audio is married to the picture negative, and then new prints have to made. Those prints would then have to be delivered to all of the theaters across the globe.

Based on all of the years I spent in film post, I can all but guarantee you that didn't happen.

Cheers.


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## whinecellar

Yep, I know how crazy it sounds. Admittedly, my knowledge stops at all of the mechanics involved in old-school film distribution, but nobody is distributing "films" anymore. We live in an age of digital distribution. How many theaters are holding actual *film* prints? None. It's really not a huge deal to send out a new round of DCPs.

Just thinking out loud and passing on a conversation I had with someone very, VERY well in the loop on this.

I wish I could tell you the rest of the conversation. I find it hard to believe myself, except (a) this is Disney we're taking about (b) a BILLION dollar release and (c) the person who told me is not someone who would mess around. He knows his stuff and works with a lot of the same people involved in this, on many levels.

Anyway, there you have it...


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## Jerome Vonhogen

whinecellar said:


> So I saw TFA for the 4th time last night - 2nd time in this particular room. And I was pleasantly shocked at how much better the score sounded this time. The opening credits in particular were significantly better - bigger - than my first 3 viewings. And it wasn't just a sonic difference; it sounded like a different performance. My first thought: did Disney go back for a mid-release remix?!?
> 
> Without getting into detail, I just talked to a VERY well-connected friend of mine today, and apparently the answer is yes. More than that, some cues were actually re-recorded. In London. The issues many of us noticed early on were apparently noticed at the top - and addressed.
> 
> Very, very interesting. Brings up lots of questions. Just glad to know I wasn't the only one who thought it sounded better at Abbey Road...
> 
> Flame suit at the ready


 

"Very interesting", you say? Well, not really. Your friend is just joking. Or maybe you are? 

Think about it for a second, it doesn't make any sense at all. The MPAA and the National Association of Theater Owners already approved the movie, and John Williams has been nominated for an Oscar for the score. There is no way Disney can secretly make changes to the released movie and simply replace the audio.

Apart from the fact that this would be logistically impossible, officially it would turn the movie into a new release, which is definitely not something a responsible studio would ever lie about, unless they would deliberately try to get John Williams disqualified at the Oscars, of course.

Besides, J.J. Abrams would never mislead the audience like Stanley Kubrick did when he faked the moonlanding in 1969. 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## germancomponist

Jerome Vonhogen, why do you use this, your avatar? Why look like typical bureaucracy? We composers are not office workers and we, at last me, do not like such avatars.


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## tack

Oh good, now we get to start attacking people for how they look. Awesome.


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## whinecellar

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> "John Williams has been nominated for an Oscar for the score. There is no way Disney can secretly make changes to the released movie and simply replace the audio.



1. Nobody is suggesting Disney would replace John Williams' score - it's still his even if they opted to remix or even re-record some cues for whatever reason.

2. Disney owns the project; they certainly can do whatever they want.



Jerome Vonhogen said:


> ...officially it would turn the movie into a new release, which is definitely not something a responsible studio would ever lie about, unless they would deliberately try to get John Williams disqualified at the Oscars, of course.



1. Lots of films (including the original Star Wars) had several different mixes/dubs cut & distributed after the initial print run - did that make it a "new release"?

2. Nobody would be lying about anything; again, still his score...


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## Jerome Vonhogen

whinecellar said:


> 1. Nobody is suggesting Disney would replace John Williams' score - it's still his even if they opted to remix or even re-record some cues for whatever reason.
> 
> 2. Disney owns the project; they certainly can do whatever they want.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Lots of films (including the original Star Wars) had several different mixes/dubs cut & distributed after the initial print run - did that make it a "new release"?
> 
> 2. Nobody would be lying about anything; again, still his score...


 

Why would Disney go through all the trouble then? And what about the rest of the world? I live in Europe, so what version of the movie did I watch? I'm confused.

In the version I watched, BB-8 had the shape of a sphere with a smaller spherical cap on top of it. What shape did BB-8 have in the version you just saw? And did the Stormtroopers carry blasters or Walkie Talkies?

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Jerome Vonhogen

germancomponist said:


> Jerome Vonhogen, why do you use this, your avatar? Why look like typical bureaucracy? We composers are not office workers and we, at last me, do not like such avatars.


 

The fact that all film composers sound the same doesn't mean we have to dress the same way. 

Not that it's any of my business, but why are you using a picture of Angela Merkel as your avatar? 

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## vewilya

whinecellar said:


> So I saw TFA for the 4th time last night - 2nd time in this particular room. And I was pleasantly shocked at how much better the score sounded this time. The opening credits in particular were significantly better - bigger - than my first 3 viewings. And it wasn't just a sonic difference; it sounded like a different performance. My first thought: did Disney go back for a mid-release remix?!?
> 
> Without getting into detail, I just talked to a VERY well-connected friend of mine today, and apparently the answer is yes. More than that, some cues were actually re-recorded. In London. The issues many of us noticed early on were apparently noticed at the top - and addressed.
> 
> Very, very interesting. Brings up lots of questions. Just glad to know I wasn't the only one who thought it sounded better at Abbey Road...
> 
> Flame suit at the ready


That is really interesting... What is going on here?


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## Guy Rowland

Well this is as good a rumour / conspiracy theory as we'll get in our neck of the woods. I share a lot of scepticism, but I also agree with Whinecellar that logistically it would be considerably easier now than it would have been in years gone by - you'd need a new dub for reel 1, but even that is likely to be much simpler than once was - the automation should all come back after all, and then it's a case of replacing the opening music. Then edit the new reel 1 into all the master versions, and redistribute digitally. You'd need a boat load of new QCs though I'd imagine.

What may or may not give it credence would be some precedent. There have been a number of controversial mixes over the years - do we know if any were ever changed to the theatrical prints?

I think the biggest strike against the theory would be certification. I'm pretty sure that any changes to the master version of the film would require re-certification in each country. In the UK, changes have been ordered by the BBFC to the sound mix if a film is to achieve a specific certification - from memory the Woman In White was one (but I might have it conflated with another movie) where changes to the mix were made to make it less scary in order to go down from a 15 to a 12. So there is precedent here for demonstrating that changes in the mix itself are of concern to the BBFC, and knowing how these things work, it would most likely be a blanket "any change requires recertification" rather than a list of rules as to what precisely would count as a major change - in theory a nefarious studio could slip in strong language or anything if this wasn't the case. So with the BBFC at any rate, then there would likely be a paper trail to confirm or deny, and FWIW there's no mention I can see on the BBFC website - http://www.bbfc.co.uk/releases/star-wars-force-awakens-2015 . Of course, it's theoretically possible that a new theatrical mix is US-only - famously the MPAA are far more opaque in their processes (see the outstanding documentary This Film Is Not Yet Rated - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493459/ ), and the studios own it, so it may be easier to just slip something under the radar. Just to add a little conspiracy on top of a conspiracy (which is kinda how conspiracy theories go, right?)


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## Carbs

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> The fact that all film composers sound the same doesn't mean we have to dress the same way.
> 
> Not that it's any of my business, but why are you using a picture of Angela Merkel as your avatar?
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen


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## dgburns

whinecellar said:


> Yep, I know how crazy it sounds. Admittedly, my knowledge stops at all of the mechanics involved in old-school film distribution, but nobody is distributing "films" anymore. We live in an age of digital distribution. How many theaters are holding actual *film* prints? None. It's really not a huge deal to send out a new round of DCPs.
> 
> Just thinking out loud and passing on a conversation I had with someone very, VERY well in the loop on this.
> 
> I wish I could tell you the rest of the conversation. I find it hard to believe myself, except (a) this is Disney we're taking about (b) a BILLION dollar release and (c) the person who told me is not someone who would mess around. He knows his stuff and works with a lot of the same people involved in this, on many levels.
> 
> Anyway, there you have it...



Before people jump down his throat saying it is not possible,I direct you to Star Wars epi 1 where prints were sent to theatres with the scene where Darth Maul is killed by the lighsaber,and falls into the hole,but he stayed in one piece as he fell.The prints were corrected with him getting seperated in two as he fell a few days or so,maybe a week into the official release.


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## whinecellar

Ha - thanks for the defense @dgburns  Yeah, it's not outside the realm of possibility, however unlikely it might be. Again, different mixes of Star Wars were sent out after the first print run back in '77 when it was WAY more difficult...


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## Baron Greuner

edited


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## MacTomBie

Isn't it more likely that the theater just recalibrated their sound system or upgraded something in the audio path so it sounded different? Also since they used to send out different mixes with the earlier movies in the past, and we know about it, why would they go silent about it now?


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## Guy Rowland

whinecellar said:


> different mixes of Star Wars were sent out after the first print run back in '77 when it was WAY more difficult...



Yes. but IIRC that was to do with the different formats - you had different mixes for mono, the all-new Dolby Stereo and a 6 track surround mix, and there were different voice actors I think in some of the minor roles, among other differences (hey I found a little reference to it here - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russdawson/mono/ ). IIRC (again) they'd just finished the mono mix overnight and were having breakfast when they first saw the box office queues (this sounds suspiciously apocraphyl on my part, must go back to reading Empire Building again). Anyway, the point is I don't think new mixes were sent out for the same format but updated, they were rolled out for each format one at a time.

That Sabre story is interesting dg, I've not heard that before and would be pertinent for sure. Would love to read a source.


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## whinecellar

MacTomBie said:


> Isn't it more likely that the theater just recalibrated their sound system or upgraded something in the audio path so it sounded different? Also since they used to send out different mixes with the earlier movies in the past, and we know about it, why would they go silent about it now?



No to your first question - brand new theater with Dolby Atmos. Sounded fine the first time, it's just that the music was anemic especially in the opening titles. The music was radically different on 2nd viewing with everything else being the same. Even my 12-year-old daughter commented right away that the music sounded much better.

As for your second question, the only reason we know about the earlier mixes is because it was documented in behind the scenes material. There would be no reason for a studio to announce they released an updated cue - it's not something the general public would care about.


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## whinecellar

Guy Rowland said:


> Yes. but IIRC that was to do with the different formats -



Yep, all true. But again in this case it wasn't just a mix issue - it was supposedly a re-record of several cues. I really wish I could quote my source, but that's not in the cards. Having heard what I heard, it all makes sense, difficulties aside...


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## dgburns

Guy Rowland said:


> Yes. but IIRC that was to do with the different formats - you had different mixes for mono, the all-new Dolby Stereo and a 6 track surround mix, and there were different voice actors I think in some of the minor roles, among other differences (hey I found a little reference to it here - http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russdawson/mono/ ). IIRC (again) they'd just finished the mono mix overnight and were having breakfast when they first saw the box office queues (this sounds suspiciously apocraphyl on my part, must go back to reading Empire Building again). Anyway, the point is I don't think new mixes were sent out for the same format but updated, they were rolled out for each format one at a time.
> 
> That Sabre story is interesting dg, I've not heard that before and would be pertinent for sure. Would love to read a source.



I did a quick google search and this page came up,rather then quoting,I'll offer the link and point you to entry # 4 (the George Lucas quote) and #7 where a guy claiming to be a projectionist at the time states that the wrong version got out to theatres.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/darth-maul-wasnt-cut-in-half.16593500/

obviously I think there may be better references out there,but the jist of it is that errors happen,and stuff can and does get pulled and replaced,for various reasons.


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## germancomponist

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> The fact that all film composers sound the same doesn't mean we have to dress the same way.
> 
> Not that it's any of my business, but why are you using a picture of Angela Merkel as your avatar?
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen


Ha ha, this is a good answer!


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