# Question about Very High Violin Ensemble Part



## Zedcars (Jan 12, 2020)

Hello,

I've just had a bit of a shock after I read (in an old notebook of mine) that even professional violin players cannot perform jumps bigger than a 3rd up to the very highest notes (say above high A). I have a piece I'm writing that I'm quite a long way towards finishing where I have the following 2 passages for Violins 1:










As you can see, the first one jumps from high G up a fifth to very high D. This is potentially the most problematic.

The second example is divisi (triplets), the upper part of which goes from F# up to high B down to D and back up to B.

Obviously this is for violin ensemble. Please could someone tell me if this is impractical? If so, I will have to re-think my score. Or if this is playable by a group? I've been unable to find any passages in the repertoire for very high strings in this context.

The only other instrument I have playing up there is a piccolo. If I were to have to re-score it, my only options I can see are 1) have Vn1 play in unison with Vn2 an octave lower (causing a dramatic loss of power in the top octave), or 2) go back to the drawing board and transpose my entire piece down a whole-tone (which will cause other problems and may still be too high anyway). 3) Have them play the melody as written, but play the high D note down 1 octave and allow the piccolo to cover the octave above. This will may ruin the line though.

My intention is to have my piece performed at some point.

I'd really appreciate any help and advice on this. 

Edit: Forgot to add # to F# above.


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## M Abela (Jan 12, 2020)

Both examples can be played although the violinists you choose might say quite a few choice words in their heart.


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## Zedcars (Jan 12, 2020)

M Abela said:


> Both examples can be played although the violinists you choose might say quite a few choice words in their heart.


Thank you. I don’t mind if they swear at me under their breaths, although I’d rather not upset them.

Do you (or anyone else) think intonation could be a problem at that altitude (especially when combined with piccolo)?


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## JohnG (Jan 12, 2020)

Those parts are going to be a challenge for weak players. If you're in Los Angeles or London or something, they can play it, but it isn't the easiest.

One thing I've done when I don't have enough really great players is to put just one violin on the top part. Usually there is at least one player who's strong enough to manage difficult / high parts, and it's surprising how well even one violin can articulate a very high note like that. 

Put differently, the balance may not be exactly as you've imagined it with one person on the top line, but better to have one person playing in tune up there than three or four wobbling. Also, that leaves a larger number to play the second violin part all together, which provides _that_ line with air cover.

Last suggestion -- have the violas play the tremolo B in the lower staff in the second bit. Even one viola can provide enough power in that register so you can hear it. That way you can use all the violins up high.

Kind regards,

John

PS -- ask @JJP what he thinks. I'm somewhat cautious because I hardly ever want to pay for rehearsals, so I try to write stuff that can be played accurately in one or two passes.


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## M Abela (Jan 12, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> Do you (or anyone else) think intonation could be a problem at that altitude (especially when combined with piccolo)?



Definitely, especially if they are weaker players.


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## Zedcars (Jan 12, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Those parts are going to be a challenge for weak players. If you're in Los Angeles or London or something, they can play it, but it isn't the easiest.
> 
> One thing I've done when I don't have enough really great players is to put just one violin on the top part. Usually there is at least one player who's strong enough to manage difficult / high parts, and it's surprising how well even one violin can articulate a very high note like that.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. That’s really helpful. In order to deal with an even higher G#, this guy, whom you may have heard of  , reduced the upper players to 2 desks doubled with piccolo in the following famous piece:


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## JJP (Jan 12, 2020)

I think @JohnG pretty much covered it. You can write like that, but you are asking for problems and there is a good chance it will never sound like what you are hearing in your head.

I'm like John in that I try to write so that we don't waste time rehearsing things which could simply be orchestrated more practically.


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## Bernard Duc (Jan 12, 2020)

Be careful not to think that something is of acceptable difficulty just because R. Strauss did it. A lot of those passages are audition pieces that the players spend their whole lives practicing. As for your example, I don’t know, it depends on the level of the players. But there is no hard rule, some players can jump directly to incredibly high notes.


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## JohnG (Jan 12, 2020)

Zedcars said:


>



Apart from it being only the top two desks, notice three other aspects of the Strauss example:

1. Tremolo -- Intonation is more forgiving with tremolo when the strings are up high. When I was just starting out, I also wrote some pretty high parts, often for small groups of players. Result: rather feeble, weedy sound. But I learned a good lesson when a kind concert-master suggested that half (or all) the first violins play very high lines tremolo. Definitely helps.

2. Rests -- there are short rests separating some of the jumps.

3. Stepwise movement -- many / most of the moves from one note to another are only one step away.


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## Zedcars (Jan 13, 2020)

Thanks so much for all your replies. I’ve had a think and tried out some alternatives using BBCSO which I feel is very good for hearing a good balance in lieu of the real thing. I think I’m just going to drop the Vn1 down an octave. That upper octave is covered by the piccolo and I think it’s penetrating enough to shine through on its own. I did try adding a solo violin up there, but don’t think it improves the sound in the end. I might be wrong though.

Not 100% sure how I’m going to handle the second excerpt however.


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> I did try adding a solo violin up there, but don’t think it improves the sound in the end. I might be wrong though.



Virtual doubles always sound terrible. Try it live, when you have your players, with a soloist. If you don't like it you can either have them play it an octave down or do something else.

Also, suggest you copy both V1 and V2 onto the same part, so your players can switch back and forth if necessary while you're dialing in the balance. This is fairly typical for film music recordings; somewhat less so for concert performance, so be ready to dismiss anyone fussing at you about it.



Zedcars said:


> Not 100% sure how I’m going to handle the second excerpt however.



You can still put one violin on the very top line, the rest of the violins on the second line, and have the violas play the B-natural tremolo

Also, for all the violins, add a lift (I notate them as a breath mark, just like a wind instrument) between the first three and second three quarter notes (crotchets). That will allow them to reset their bows and also to dig in satisfyingly to the accent on the fourth note.


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## Zedcars (Jan 14, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Virtual doubles always sound terrible. Try it live, when you have your players, with a soloist. If you don't like it you can either have them play it an octave down or do something else.



OK, it's something I could try. You have to understand I have no experience of hiring orchestras - let alone a top notch full orchestra. I have worked with soloists and small ensembles though, but even then that was many years ago. I do have the funds, but it could all remain a pipe-dream to have this performed. I'm planning on posting the score in due course but fully expect it to be full of problems.



> Also, suggest you copy both V1 and V2 onto the same part, so your players can switch back and forth if necessary while you're dialing in the balance. This is fairly typical for film music recordings; somewhat less so for concert performance, so be ready to dismiss anyone fussing at you about it.



Would you mind expanding on the first bit here, as I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean literally have both V1 and V2 on the same instrument part scores? I've not heard of this practice. Also not sure what you mean by dialing in the balance - you mean from the control room? I'd hire an engineer to do that as I lack the skill or experience.



> You can still put one violin on the very top line, the rest of the violins on the second line, and have the violas play the B-natural tremolo.



In my score I have the violas playing the V1 part down an octave. I wanted the trems to be more prominent given that there are more V2 players than violas. Maybe that's not something I should even worry about. Still learning a lot here!



> Also, for all the violins, add a lift (I notate them as a breath mark, just like a wind instrument) between the first three and second three quarter notes (crotchets). That will allow them to reset their bows and also to dig in satisfyingly to the accent on the fourth note.


Do you mean a comma - like a fermata?


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 14, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've just had a bit of a shock after I read (in an old notebook of mine) that even professional violin players cannot perform jumps bigger than a 3rd up to the very highest notes (say above high A). I have a piece I'm writing that I'm quite a long way towards finishing where I have the following 2 passages for Violins 1:


Example 1 is fine. It's high but there are countless examples in the standard rep. that would be similar or more difficult. Most pros wouldn't flinch, unless it is super exposed but you have the octave below. Leave it.

Example 2: The B D B is going to be problematic. It's a matter of fingering. It's uncomfortable and will be out of tune.


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## Zedcars (Jan 14, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> Example 1 is fine. It's high but there are countless examples in the standard rep. that would be similar or more difficult. Most pros wouldn't flinch, unless it is super exposed but you have the octave below. Leave it.
> 
> Example 2: The B D B is going to be problematic. It's a matter of fingering. It's uncomfortable and will be out of tune.


Thank you. I’ll try and rescore the 2nd one. Conflicted now about the advice on the first one, but maybe if I have an alternate version available if the notes are unabtainable.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 14, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> Conflicted now about the advice on the first one,


Trust me.  Not a big deal.

This was written for a high school orchestra (Outdoor Overture, Aaron Copland). I played it in high school too. Still very popular with youth orchestras. 122 on, that lick is 8va.


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## JohnG (Jan 14, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> Do you mean literally have both V1 and V2 on the same instrument part scores?



yes -- both Violin 1 and Violin 2 are on the same parts for all violin players (two staves).

The idea is that you can rebalance the section, or (better still) ask the concert master his / her opinion "what if we just put three violins on the top line and the other nine on the lower part." That's what I mean by "rebalancing" -- not a mixing board thing, an actual decision you make in real time about how many players are playing each line.



Zedcars said:


> Do you mean a comma - like a fermata?



no -- exactly like a breath mark. In English that looks like a comma but above the bar, in between the notes where you want the 'lift' -- a lift is like an unmeasured, very short rest, but notating it as a breath mark tells the players that you don't really want a measured rest, just a very short interruption.

Also, I agree with @Sears Poncho that the first passage is not nearly as hard as the second. So, provided you have good players it will be fine. But...

...it's just that you don't always get good players or not as many good players as you would wish. I'm giving the "if they rehearse and it sounds awful" backup advice. That's why it's good to copy both the Violin 1 and Violin 2 staves on all the violin parts, so that if it sounds great -- great! But if not, you can try the soloist.

Also, remember that a rule of thumb on any part for strings is "one, or at least three" playing the line. It is harder for two players to play the line in tune. That said, I have violated this rule numerous times with no ill effects. It's just a handy suggestion, like most stuff in music.


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## JohnG (Jan 14, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> In my score I have the violas playing the V1 part down an octave. I wanted the trems to be more prominent given that there are more V2 players than violas. Maybe that's not something I should even worry about



Without seeing the whole passage I hesitate to insist on advice. But remember that a single viola in this register (medium/high for violas) will make more sound than a violin (or maybe even than two). 

My main point is that, typically, you will want as many violin players as you can on those high parts, and relegating even one to a tremolo B seems like squandering what I assume are scarce resources. If you have 30 violins you can do whatever you want, but if you have 9, or 6, or 5 I would use a viola, even if it's a solo part.

If you're worried about hearing it, you can always mark it a louder dynamic (mf instead of mp, for example) or, on the day, just ask the player to play louder if you can't hear it.


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## Zedcars (Jan 14, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> Trust me.  Not a big deal.
> 
> This was written for a high school orchestra (Outdoor Overture, Aaron Copland). I played it in high school too. Still very popular with youth orchestras. 122 on, that lick is 8va.


That’s fantastic news. So great you found that Copland example. It did lose some impact when I tried in my mock-up to drop V1 an 8ve so I’m relieved it will be doable. Cheers very much for your advice.


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## Zedcars (Jan 14, 2020)

@JohnG Wow, great detailed replies. I’m going to need some time to absorb what you’ve said but it’s definitely helped me a great deal.


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## Wally Garten (Jan 15, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> @JohnG Wow, great detailed replies. I’m going to need some time to absorb what you’ve said but it’s definitely helped me a great deal.



Just wanted to amplify the thanks to @JohnG and @Sears Poncho -- this was a really interesting thread.


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## Zedcars (Jan 18, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> Example 2: The B D B is going to be problematic. It's a matter of fingering. It's uncomfortable and will be out of tune.



I’ve been thinking long and hard about what you have said about the fingering. I don’t deny that you are correct, since you seem to know far more than me. I just would like to understand why the B5 to D5 to B5 (upper divisi part) is hard to play (C3 = mid C). I think it would be a hugely valuable lesson for me if you could explain this briefly. I’ve been reading a lot about the ergonomics of violin positions and fingering.

The two notes seem to be very close to each other on the finger board:






Would it help the execution if I explained the final triplet is at the end of a molto rall. which brings it down to about 45 bpm?

I also have the piccolo entering there playing the same upper notes, so if need be I could omit the upper B notes in V1 and have them play unis (F# D F#).

I am even contemplating learning to play the violin so I will understand these issues more completely.

Apologies if I am missing something so blindingly obvious!


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 18, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> The two notes seem to be very close to each other on the finger board:


It's actually a great question you have. Three part answer:

1. You have to take into account what comes before it. One has to play that F#D F#, then shift. So, the fiddle player is already on shaky ground. Not only does one have to shift, they have to "prepare" for the next note after the high B. 

2. It's a minor 6th. Let's start at the bottom of the fiddle in first position. a minor 6th will be a certain distance apart. Let's make up a term. Dillimeter.  The distance will be 6 dillimeters (DM). Then, it will be 5.5 dm in second position. Then maybe 4.648 dm. The hand is always changing and adapting. After let's say 6th position, the hand is probably too big, so one has to "displace" fingers. In other words, the interval is so close that it's too close. It's a guess at that point. Now keep in mind that the violinist just shifted, so one has to add that in. Shift/prepare/guess. At the top, it's a 1 dm distance, in our imaginary dm world.

3. The violin itself might play a part. If the strings are false (old), they get less reliable as far as where exactly the notes are. If the fiddle isn't set up properly, same thing. To play a 5th, a violinist puts one finger on 2 strings, fairly evenly. As they go higher, it changes. It might be that they put 65% of the finger on one string. Everything changes as it gets higher. The hand has to retract and form smaller intervals, but at the top the intervals are so small that one has to kinda guess. The string change is the thing, one has to nail the notes on 2 different strings, and it's extremely difficult way up there because the intervals are small and other variables. Think of pool/billiards: It's probably easy to hit a ball with the cue ball from 6 inches away. Imagine the cue ball being 6 millimeters away, and one has to hit a certain point on the ball. Same concept.

The same lick an octave lower- simple. A student could do it. Up an octave in that range, it becomes very difficult. If you made it a B G B, that would be playable. It's all on one string, the hand could guess much better.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2020)

Excuse me if I interfere, lots of good advice already in this thread.
Trying some fingerings I found that none of the examples would be particularly difficult (for me) if the A and the E string are properly used.

If I should play the first example, upper line, I would be already on the A string on the B, preferably with the first to third finger (depending from where I came before), then shift to the C with the 1st finger (alternatively 2nd finger), still on the A string. The next G then with the 1st finger on the E string, from there I could safely get to the high D with the 4th finger. You could consider though to write that with the 8va trick for better readibility.

(To be totally exact, I personally would play more of the beginning on the E string as the concert master for adding some shine to the section and then shift upwards, but I would make the bulk of the section start on the A string. But that is something each section better decides between themselves; inferfering from outside could easily be taken for micromanagement.)

For the upper voice of the second example I would try to start with the 1st finger on the E string for the F#, no shifting necessary.

That violinists could not play more than a third upwards from a certain note on is a total myth, at least I have never heard of it.

Hope that helps, Hannes


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 18, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> I found that none of the examples would be particularly difficult (for me)


Yeah, but you probably practice. Please, you're setting a very bad example for the rest of us. 

Remember the context: It's an orchestra piece, and it's probably gonna be read down with little to no rehearsal. As a solo player, there is that passage in the Brahms concerto with ascending 6ths and crossing strings etc. But we gotta practice that one. Personally, I wouldn't write an orchestral piece with the above (2nd) excerpt, I'd take it down an octave. I don't like practicing.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2020)

@Sears Poncho Like ... who practises, stabs the co-musicians in the back? 

Seriously though, of course I practise, and also I literally practise everything that I record, even for section recordings, at least a few times. No matter how good it sounds the first or second time, it will sound even much better after some runs.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 18, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> Seriously though, of course I practise,


I find that practicing gets in the way of my free time.  OK, I still practice here and there. I do if I have any kind of "chamber music" gig etc. If I play orchestra gigs, I 'warm up" before. I did practice Harry Potter last year, we did the score with the movie behind us and I opened the folder for that one. Nasty part.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2020)

@Sears Poncho You recorded Harry Potter? Congratulations, that is something!


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 18, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> @Sears Poncho You recorded Harry Potter? Congratulations, that is something!


No, didn't record it. Played it live. This is happening a lot in the US, not only HP but lots of other movies. They show the movie on a big screen, and the orchestra plays the score onstage. I've done the first 3 HP films. Other films like Jurrasic Park, GHostbusters, ET etc are being done this way as well.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 18, 2020)

@Sears Poncho Yes very good. I don't know, I need to practise even the simplest parts, or rather: I might not exactly need it, but I notice the difference.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 19, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> Hello,
> 
> I've just had a bit of a shock after I read (in an old notebook of mine) that even professional violin players cannot perform jumps bigger than a 3rd up to the very highest notes (say above high A). I have a piece I'm writing that I'm quite a long way towards finishing where I have the following 2 passages for Violins 1:



Darren,
I wanted a test anyways today about a new violin adding to the section here, so I took your examples for it and recorded it live. Played as notated, with made up lower voices for balance.

Are you asking for trouble? Maybe. Is it unplayable? No  Is it fun to play? Yes 🙃
Enjoy:
Darren / Zedcars High Violins


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 19, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> so I took your examples for it and recorded it live.


Sounds great! Love it.


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## Zedcars (Jan 19, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> It's actually a great question you have. Three part answer:
> 
> 1. You have to take into account what comes before it. One has to play that F#D F#, then shift. So, the fiddle player is already on shaky ground. Not only does one have to shift, they have to "prepare" for the next note after the high B.
> 
> ...


I guess it may help (or may not) if I say that the last F# note (and D) of the previous triplet is a slurred staccato? And the tempo has reduced close to 45 bpm by that point. Dynamics mf cresc towards ff. I think I probably didn’t do myself any favours by not showing more context. I can upload a bigger snapshot of this section soon. Even so, I may well need to alter this to reduce the difficulty.

Thank you for your excellent advice and I shall be mulling this over during the coming days.


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## Zedcars (Jan 19, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> Darren,
> I wanted a test anyways today about a new violin adding to the section here, so I took your examples for it and recorded it live. Played as notated, with made up lower voices for balance.
> 
> Are you asking for trouble? Maybe. Is it unplayable? No  Is it fun to play? Yes 🙃
> ...


Wow. I was not expecting this! How marvellous! 😯

Your interpretation is actually not too far removed from the music I have written. I do intend to post a bigger excerpt soon (the full score needs a lot of work before I can upload it without humiliation).

Thanks so much for your efforts on this. It’s an amazing community here. I still cannot believe how many kind, talented and extremely knowledgable people there are who are willing to give their time freely to help complete strangers!

Thanks again.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 19, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> I guess it may help (or may not) if I say that the last F# note (and D) of the previous triplet is a slurred staccato?


At this point, Hannes did such an excellent job playing it that I'd say it doesn't matter and just leave it. Keep in mind though that the results might not be as good... but it will be over soon one way or another. 

As you'll see, so much depends on the players. But as composers, we (or possibly "I") tend to worry about too much. The "d" is questionable, but I'm literally worried about one note.  You'll be fine!


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## Hannes_F (Jan 19, 2020)

JohnG said:


> You can still put one violin on the very top line, the rest of the violins on the second line, and have the violas play the B-natural tremolo



That is good, I would rather split the violas in the second example than the 1st violins.




Sears Poncho said:


> but it will be over soon one way or another.


Haha, love it! 




Zedcars said:


> Wow. I was not expecting this! How marvellous! 😯



You're welcome, all the best with the project!


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## Zedcars (Jan 20, 2020)

I'll attach a bigger overview of the 2 sections so it makes more sense. This has other instruments (omitted for brevity) joining as it builds to an orchestral tutti at rehearsal mark *C*.

One other thing I've just realised is that the main theme goes up just a tad too high for the violas in their highest range (D6) so I've had to lower that note an 8ve. A soloist could handle it, but not a group. As it's covered by the V2, hopefully it won't be too noticeable. It's just a shame because the emotional and melodic height of the tune will be somewhat less impactful.

I did what you suggested @JohnG and gave the tremolos to the violas and the divisi triplets to V2.


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## José Herring (Jan 20, 2020)

Zedcars said:


> I'll attach a bigger overview of the 2 sections so it makes more sense. This has other instruments (omitted for brevity) joining as it builds to an orchestral tutti at rehearsal mark *C*.
> 
> One other thing I've just realised is that the main theme goes up just a tad too high for the violas in their highest range (D6) so I've had to lower that note an 8ve. A soloist could handle it, but not a group. As it's covered by the V2, hopefully it won't be too noticeable. It's just a shame because the emotional and melodic height of the tune will be somewhat less impactful.
> 
> I did what you suggested @JohnG and gave the tremolos to the violas and the divisi triplets to V2.


I like this a lot. Much better orchestration choices than what was first presented.

I think that John G gave some really good advice.

The only thing that I would add is that it depends on what effect you want to create and the players you have.

The opening to the Rite of Spring, the bassoon solo, was written for that instrument in that register so as to be fairly hard, unstable, strained ect. That's the effect I'm sure Stravinsky was going for rather than putting it in the Oboe or English Horn or clarinet, ect.. Problem is that now bassoonist have worked on it so hard that any professional level bassoonist can do that solo with relative ease. The effect is kind of lost as now it sounds almost pretty and refined.

So, if you're going for that effect of instability and having the players struggling your first orchestration would do just fine. If you're going for the effect of this shimmering ethereal high harmony then your second attempt to orchestrate it is far superior.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 20, 2020)

Looks very good. A few unsolicited comments:

1. I wouldn't do "simile" with slurs. Measure 29 etc, write the slurs in.

2. The double down bow measures don't make much sense, especially at FF.

3. Measure 47: that last note will jump out. 7/8ths of the measure is one bow, then 1/8th is one bow. Consider slurring that note in.

4. Consider not putting any bowings in. It's not your job, for starters. Some of them don't line up. 51 you have up bow. If one does what you have written, they will be at "up bow" at 54, where you have down bow. Doesn't work out. Again, not your job. In FF passages like this, the melody is gonna need a ton of bow.

5. 3 before C you have "cresc". YOu might wanna have a dotted line or something. It's a 3 measure molto cresc. Maybe drive the point home with a hairpin one before C?

6. Feel free to disregard all this....except #1. Ya gotta put the bowings in. Lazy.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 21, 2020)

^^^ What Sears Poncho says. Especially #4. It is an unwritten rule between composers and string players that composers write down what they want to hear musically and leave the decision of up- and downbow markings (and secret division or combination of slurs) to the most experienced bowing expert in the field, most times the head of the first violins (concert master). There might also be local preferences in bowing style. Composers who try it themselves nearly always get it wrong, because even for an experienced player it can be hard to estimate this without the instrument in the hand.

For example would you have guessed that I began the theme (C) with upbow? I wouldn't have from just reading the notes, yet that is what I ended up with after a few trys.


Only very few additions:
Bar 28: Supposedly you mean to write "Vl" instead of "Va" for the first two lines?

Bar 28: I am slightly confused what you mean with the bowing by a slur over three notes with the last note having a staccato/spiccato dot on top of it. Maybe this is a traditional vs modern or european vs american thing or simply some missing education on my side. But I would need to ask: Do you want the third note to be shorter but still slurred, or do you want it to be played with an extra accent (little crack) at its start? In the first case I would regard the dot as superfluous; the last note of such slurs is somewhat shorter anyways if no extra effort is done to prevent this.

Bar 31: Violins 1 have dynamics on their rests? Same for 33 - 36.

Bar 37: Violins 2 (if they are not Violas) can not play that low F.

Bar 47: Additionally to what Sears Poncho wrote, a possible notation would be like in the example. And this is how I would play it anyways, no matter whether notated or not.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 21, 2020)

Darran/Zedcars,
a last observation which can be difficult to alter here, since you are already quite advanced in this project, but might be of good help for your general writing:

In your example there are many 4ths in the upper voices of the strings, and sometimes even in the violas. Please be aware that fourths in neighboring voices (or even in one voice as divisi) always need special intonation consideration and are prone to sound out of tune if not being executed very well (which needs rehearsal).

Now, these fourths might be a very conscious choice if you are going for the "fanfare" sound. But if they repeat very often, then it could also be that this came from a typical pattern of transferring piano chords to a strings arrangement. It is quite tempting to put two hands on the piano for a chord, play typical piano patterns, and then to allot the left hand to CB + VC, and the right hand to Vl + Va. But these dreaded fourths are one typical symptom of this, often representing the pinky and the forefinger of the right piano hand, or the thumb and the middle finger in other inversions.

Another symptom of this is that as a result we will often find the viola playing quite high passages. All this will make the upper frequencies quite populated, with a hole in the middle, and only then comes the bass. This can be good if you for example want to make room in the middle for other voices (e.g. winds) but only if this is a conscius decision.

You will hardly find many of such fourths in the works of classical composers, and they knew why. The easiest way to make such passages less critical, is to transfer one of the both notes one octave lower. This is referred to 'wide voicing', opposed to 'narrow' voicing. (EDIT I see that in anglo-american this is also referred to 'open voicing' and 'closed voicing'.

You find two examples in the attachment. In the first bar we have a fourth between 1st and 2nd violins, which is intonation critical to begin with, also a special sound at itself. Below that we have a third between the 2nd violins and the violas ... such narrow intervals are very nice between two upper voices but tend to produce a 'wall of sound' between middle voices. Why? Because narrow intervals always produce many harmonics, and the lower in the mix this happens, the more it populates the sound ... and not always in a pleasant way. Again, if that is your purpose then go for it, but consciously.

In bar 2 everything is relaxed. We have a sixth between the two violins - sounds very nice and is easy to hit, and a fifth between violin 2 and violas. The violas fulfil their natural role here by bridging to the bass.

In bar 3 we have another example of narrow voicing. The third between the violins is nice, they will produce that lovely 'duet' sound. However the fourth between v2 and va is somewhat nasty, and we have an even wider gap to the bass than before.

In bar 4 the situation is relaxed again, a sixth between the violins and a fifth between v2 and va.

Now you say 'but I liked that lovely duet sound between the violins!'. Fine, then go vor the solution in bar 5, creating some distance between the violas and the violin pair. However the violas are still far enough away from the cellos (a fifth) not to produce too much acoustical mud (less than e.g. a third in that range could easily do, if being in the middle of a mix).

If you overdo that and put the viola even further down as in bar six, then a narrow interval (third in this case) to the cello occurs which can will make things muddy. Of course, if only the violas and the bass instruments would play, without the violins, this would not be much of an issue, and could actually sound very nice. However with the violins above it, the harmonics of that low third can clash with the violins and create a 'wall of sound'.

BTW if you look at the viola voice you can 'see' that for the wide voicing it inhabits its natural
living space without being forced into a different role.

Probably you already know all that and I am preaching to the choir, in that case please forgive me. The situation was just too good to explain a fundamental phenomenon that I often see in arrangements.

Now some readers here could comment: "Yes, but I am not classically trained!"
To which I respond: "Maybe, but I explained this here in a way that everybody can understand it, no matter which formal training (as long as one can decipher the music example). Actually the so called 'classical composer training' has very much to do with the observation of such very simple circumstances. So, whoever reads this, no matter your education, why not pick up this snippet of information and make use of it!"

Hope that helps, Hannes


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 21, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> Bar 47: Additionally to what Sears Poncho wrote, a possible notation would be like in the example. And this is how I would play it anyways, no matter whether notated or not.


Yes. And if the section was big enough, we'd cheat and take two bows on the long note.



Hannes_F said:


> Do you want the third note to be shorter but still slurred,


This was my interpretation. An eighth note instead of a quarter would work.


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## Zedcars (Jan 21, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> Looks very good. A few unsolicited comments:
> 
> 1. I wouldn't do "simile" with slurs. Measure 29 etc, write the slurs in.
> 
> ...



1. OK, will do.

2. My ignorance and inexperience is showing in spades it would seem. I thought I was able to add down bows against what might ordinarily be an opposite bow direction in order to create more or less emphasis depending on the musical intent. My intent in that bar was one of slight emphasis, but not of a medium or heavy accent. I think it's best I remove them.

3. The note at bar 47 is meant to be played with a small gap/rest between that and the following note - a bit longer than a staccato would be ideal. I could notate it as a slurred staccato.

4. I won't be able to communicate my intentions without bow markings. Would it be false to say that poorly written bow markings are better than no markings at all because it at least communicates an approximation of what the composer intends? I think I would probably talk a violinist about my notation before ever expecting any group to play it. I did anticipate my bow markings to be incorrect to be honest. I do appreciate your input here though.

5. OK, I will do this.

6. I certainly won't do this!


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## Zedcars (Jan 21, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> ^^^ What Sears Poncho says. Especially #4. It is an unwritten rule between composers and string players that composers write down what they want to hear musically and leave the decision of up- and downbow markings (and secret division or combination of slurs) to the most experienced bowing expert in the field, most times the head of the first violins (concert master). There might also be local preferences in bowing style. Composers who try it themselves nearly always get it wrong, because even for an experienced player it can be hard to estimate this without the instrument in the hand.
> 
> For example would you have guessed that I began the theme (C) with upbow? I wouldn't have from just reading the notes, yet that is what I ended up with after a few trys.



I had anticipated my blundering missteps into bow markings as a non-string player with rudimentary self-taught education on the matter. I do intend to hire a violinist to help go through these issues with a fine tooth comb.




> Only very few additions:
> Bar 28: Supposedly you mean to write "Vl" instead of "Va" for the first two lines?



I think the poor resolution of the screen capture may have made it look like Va. On my iPhone it does look like that a bit. But I assure you it actually says "Vn" as the abbreviated form for Violins.



> Bar 28: I am slightly confused what you mean with the bowing by a slur over three notes with the last note having a staccato/spiccato dot on top of it. Maybe this is a traditional vs modern or european vs american thing or simply some missing education on my side. But I would need to ask: Do you want the third note to be shorter but still slurred, or do you want it to be played with an extra accent (little crack) at its start? In the first case I would regard the dot as superfluous; the last note of such slurs is somewhat shorter anyways if no extra effort is done to prevent this.



Again, my inexperience here is starting to bite me on the bum! My intention is to have the first two note of the triplet played for their full value, but the last note is to be about half value of just over - hence the slurred staccato. Perhaps it would be better to have the first two notes slurred (or not at all) and then have a non-slurred staccato on the last note of the triplet.



> Bar 31: Violins 1 have dynamics on their rests? Same for 33 - 36.



The dynamics here are intended for the upper V2 divisi part. I had thought it necessary to provide independent dynamics for each part, but perhaps this only applies if each divisi group has different dynamics? Sorry - this is all rudimentary stuff I know.



> Bar 37: Violins 2 (if they are not Violas) can not play that low F.


That's my carelessness. In my haste to swap the V2 and Violas round at John's logical suggestion (he had only seen the smaller excerpt at the time), I forgot to check the ranges were ok. I will sort this out. I remember now why I gave the trems to the V2 and the other part to the violas! 



> Bar 47: Additionally to what Sears Poncho wrote, a possible notation would be like in the example. And this is how I would play it anyways, no matter whether notated or not.


 Thank you for providing the example. However, there needs to be a small gap/rest between 8th note C and the following note. A slurred staccato might be closer to what I need here.

Thanks for your help.


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## Zedcars (Jan 21, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> Darran/Zedcars,
> a last observation which can be difficult to alter here, since you are already quite advanced in this project, but might be of good help for your general writing:
> 
> In your example there are many 4ths in the upper voices of the strings, and sometimes even in the violas. Please be aware that fourths in neighboring voices (or even in one voice as divisi) always need special intonation consideration and are prone to sound out of tune if not being executed very well (which needs rehearsal).
> ...


You are right in your educated assumption that it is a transcription from a piano work. I am glad you have educated me on the problems with 4ths. I must admit to feeling quite demoralised after hearing this about the 4ths, since they are integral to this sections of music and others. I'm not quite sure how I am going to proceed now. But, I appreciate you being so generous with your time and sharing your knowledge. It's better that I'm alerted to these howlers now rather than when faced with the embarrassment of a disastrous rehearsal/performance.

Funnily enough, I also had high flutes in 4ths and, prior to your post, I had already read that they will have similar intonation issues, so was going to omit their notes in that section. It doesn't leave me with any high instruments to play the 4ths. Perhaps an octave lower would be a possible solution?

I will certainly think hard about this.


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## Hannes_F (Jan 21, 2020)

Darren, 
in this case I would want to advise you to say "it's a feature, not a bug" and boldly leave it as it is. And, if rehearsed well, such high fourths can sound good (as hopefully my example demonstrated). IF they are in tune, they sort of melt into each other (what I called the fanfare sound).
Just keep in mind to reserve some rehearsal time for that, and hire an experienced conductor.

For other (future) works ... if you are composing from piano then one very simple approach would be: How would I play on the piano if I were only allowed to use two fingers per hand?


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 22, 2020)

Hannes_F said:


> How would I play on the piano if I were only allowed to use two fingers per hand?



Interesting tip @Hannes_F . Another tip Darren, if you play guitar, pick up a cheap violin (viola and cello too -I got all three for £100 years back) and from there you can easily figure out multiple stops and their playability, at least in isolation using your ears (no barr chords though). Putting stops into practice needs more thought and study, with particular attention to surrounding context in the part, but the resource is great to have when applied with knowledge and practical consideration.


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## MichaelBarry (Jan 22, 2020)

It's very player dependent - if you have a word class orchestra they will get it.

Richard Struass is very good to study when you have questions about high violin writing. Listen to how a world class orchestra handles it and look how a regional orchestra handles it. 

I'm usually very cautious about writing that high for modern LA string sections at sessions (cough cough). It never really sings in tune.


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