# Hollywood Choirs vs Symphonic Choirs



## Seasharp (Mar 26, 2019)

Anyone have both of these Libraries or either and can give me an opinion of quality and use. Especially interested in the Wordbuilder feature. Seems complicated but powerful. 

Thanks
Joe


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## TGV (Mar 26, 2019)

I can only tell that getting SC to sing acceptably with WB is very much work. If you only need short phrases, or staccato vocals, things are a lot easier (though, as always: perfection requires effort).


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## Jdiggity1 (Mar 26, 2019)

I own both.
Hollywood Choirs is better in every way except for the fact it does not have any FX samples, boys, or soloists, where Symphonic Choirs does.


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## Breaker (Mar 26, 2019)

Hollywood Choirs only have two sections - women and men - while Symphonic Choirs have SATB sections, boys and soloists (soprano, alto and boy)
The wordbuilder is much more convincing and easier to use in HC and it's also more modern sounding in general.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Mar 26, 2019)

I also have both. HC sounds wonderful, and it's nice and lush. I never had much luck with creating phrases in Wordbuilder (both HC and SC), I just use the included phrases. In big epic pieces, it's all gibberish anyways, but sounds awesome.

I still use SC quite a bit, it has so many other sections as others have mentioned, and I really like the soloist patches.


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## Seasharp (Mar 26, 2019)

Seasharp said:


> Anyone have both of these Libraries or either and can give me an opinion of quality and use. Especially interested in the Wordbuilder feature. Seems complicated but powerful.
> 
> Thanks
> Joe




Thanks for the responses. I appreciate your feedback. I am reading the Symphonic and Hollywood Choir manuals and trying to understand Wordbuilder.


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## WhiteNoiz (Mar 27, 2019)

The Wordbuilder is actually really easy to grasp once you get the basics. They had a video with Nick Phoenix explaining it which gave you a good, quick overview to get you started. (This was probably the link - "EW/QL Symphonic Choirs Wordbuilder Tutorial - Nick Phoenix introduces the PLAY version of WordBuilder. Topics include Time Editor Overview, Optimizing Phrases, and Keyswitching Vowel Sounds.)

http://web.archive.org/web/20110716112629/http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-Strings
http://web.archive.org/web/20110620163216/http://www.soundsonline.com/symphonic-choirs

It seems they've pulled the old ones. Bummer... Same for the Hollywood ones. I recall watching them. They've replaced everything with the new "Overview" ones, which they seem to also have re-uploaded quite a few times. They were also up for download on their site as you can see. They could still have them hidden somewhere. In general, they used to have a lot of outdated hidden pages. Should've saved them. :/

*Edit*: Yep, the old videos work, you can take them from the links above but I've also compiled them here if anyone's interested and missed them:
[High Quality]
http://media.soundsonline.com/tutorials/EW-182/EWQLSC-WB-Tutorial-Part-1.mov
http://media.soundsonline.com/tutorials/EW-182/EWQLSC-WB-Tutorial-Part-2.mov
http://media.soundsonline.com/tutorials/EW-182/EWQLSC-WB-Tutorial-Part-3.mov

[Lower Quality]
http://media.soundsonline.com/tutorials/EW-182/EWQLSC-WB-Tutorial-Part-1.mp4
http://media.soundsonline.com/tutorials/EW-182/EWQLSC-WB-Tutorial-Part-2.mp4
http://media.soundsonline.com/tutorials/EW-182/EWQLSC-WB-Tutorial-Part-3.mp4


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## pmcrockett (Mar 27, 2019)

I have a couple posts in a older thread comparing Symphonic Choirs to Hollywood Choirs -- basic comparison here, detailed comparison with audio here.

The wordbulder functions in basically the same way for both libraries, but it's easier to get good results in Hollywood Choirs, and Hollywood Choirs' default wordbuilder output sounds better with no tweaking than Symphonic Choirs' does.

For both, if you intend to get into the wordbuilder, you should be prepared to devote some substantial time to it. It's basically a mini multirack editor that you use to program crossfades among the various phonetic sounds. For the best results, you have to be patient, good at audio editing, and familiar with how a real choir sounds. If you want realistic words, particularly in English, there may be a lot of blending of multiple vowels involved, and it's very easy to go astray with this if you aren't already familiar with how choirs actually pronounce words.


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## Shredoverdrive (Mar 27, 2019)

I have the Composer Cloud X subscription so I have used both choirs. HW is clearly better on all counts (except for the more limited content as noted above). The word builder is quite useable in my opinion. Hollywood Choirs is probably the only thing I will buy (heavily discounted, of course) when my subscription ends (I already own HWO and Spaces I).


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## Seasharp (Mar 27, 2019)

Shredoverdrive said:


> I have the Composer Cloud X subscription so I have used both choirs. HW is clearly better on all counts (except for the more limited content as noted above). The word builder is quite useable in my opinion. Hollywood Choirs is probably the only thing I will buy (heavily discounted, of course) when my subscription ends (I already own HWO and Spaces I).


 


Thanks for all the information.


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## giwro (Sep 10, 2019)

I'd say HC is much easier - I did a quick demo track with it (very little editing of crossfades, etc) of a Latin Sanctus, and it sounded pretty good. If I had spent time futzing with some of the curves, I'm sure it would have been even better. Have a listen if you like:


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 11, 2019)

I didn't find the SC word builder to be difficult, it just requires tweaking everytime to get a phrase to work. 

the HC didn't feel a single ounce better in that regard, and doesn't have separate sections so I wasnt interested. Sonically I have VOTA as well, can write SATB, and I might very well throw it out the window for dominus 2 if Paolo strikes gold twice in row.


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## AndyP (Sep 11, 2019)

Honestly, i´ve tried them both and using the wordbuilder is not really different.
The Symphonic Choir has more flexibility and a beautiful boys choir which is the best I've ever heard. The wordbuilder works best with the boys choir, as it is the most clearly understandable.
But I rarely use the phraebuilder as a general, because the effort to build understandable phrases is high.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 11, 2019)

They are both good, Wordbuilder is indeed similar in both, I just prefer the sound of HC.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 11, 2019)

Ashermusic said:


> They are both good, Wordbuuilder is indeed similar in both, I just prefer the sound of HC.


yeah I think the sound is different and its men women vs SATB, but the word builders aren't noticeably different

think people just feel like its newer, maybe it has more premade phrases, but I wouldn't use either out of the box - and both can get convincing diction just requires tweaking


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## DANIELE (May 21, 2021)

Sorry to resume this old thread, I'm thinking about buying HC or SC or maybe both, do you have any advice on what to choose?

I already read all the posts above and I'm more into HC but I fear I could miss a SATB setup, this is why I'm on the edge.

Another question that is bothering me (I'm not able to find an answer anywhere apparently) is: can I choose where to start a phrase? I mean maybe I'd like to reuse only a part of a phrase or maybe only some syllables and I don't want to write a lot. Is there a way to cycle through a phrase from specific points or the only thing I can do is restart from the beginning?

If I can restart only from beginning do I have to write down all the text for all the track I want to write? For example if a choir start with a simple "uuu" and then it start singing something, than again some aahs and oohs and sing again do I have to write everything in the right order?

Thank you.


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## Toecutter (May 21, 2021)

Hollywood Choirs Gold is currently $249 and Diamond $299. Do you guys think the extra microphones are worth $50?

I think the lowest price Gold went was $225 (AudioDeluxe 6 months ago).


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## JohnG (May 21, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> The wordbulder functions in basically the same way for both libraries, but it's easier to get good results in Hollywood Choirs, and Hollywood Choirs' default wordbuilder output sounds better with no tweaking than Symphonic Choirs' does.


I agree with @pmcrockett Hollywood Choirs' word builder generates far better results out of the box -- no tweaking required in many cases. Not true of SC, which I remember requires a lot more work.

Mind you, the more time you spend, the better it is, but the wordbuilder in HC is a big improvement.


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## JohnG (May 21, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> If I can restart only from beginning do I have to write down all the text for all the track I want to write? For example if a choir start with a simple "uuu" and then it start singing something, than again some aahs and oohs and sing again do I have to write everything in the right order?


Not necessarily @DANIELE 

To bring off what you described, I'd suggest that you load three patches -- an "ooh" patch, an "aah" patch, and then a third instance of a word builder patch. (each on its own midi channel). 

That way you can keep your lyrics on one and maybe it's less fiddling. However, if you have a long piece with four voices and a lot of text, you will have work cut out. Restarting lyrics only goes to the beginning, ( controller cc20 at 127).


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## cygnusdei (May 21, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Sorry to resume this old thread, I'm thinking about buying HC or SC or maybe both, do you have any advice on what to choose?
> 
> I already read all the posts above and I'm more into HC but I fear I could miss a SATB setup, this is why I'm on the edge.
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with HC, but having separate S, A and T, B is actually a headache when then notes are out of the vocal range. Often times the S part goes below the range, and will need a fix/workaround using a separate track using the A voice. Likewise, the B goes above the range, and and a separate track fix will be required. Having women and men voices covering the entire range would be quite useful.


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## ProfoundSilence (May 21, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> I'm not familiar with HC, but having separate S, A and T, B is actually a headache when then notes are out of the vocal range. Often times the S part goes below the range, and will need a fix/workaround using a separate track using the A voice. Likewise, the B goes above the range, and and a separate track fix will be required. Having women and men voices covering the entire range would be quite useful.



Wouldn't it be better to just fix the writing to match the instrument?

If your melody crosses 2 octaves it's not really a melody. If your melody sits in a spot that's high for tenors and low for Altos and you're having range issues, try splitting the part up motivally between the two as sort of a question and answer. 

More importantly, if a library recorded with professional singers have issues articulating a syllable at a certain point in their range then there's absolutely no chance your melody will be hummable by the average person. 

If you don't think The actual syllable you make has an effect on what you're able to sing, sing the highest note you can right now. 

I can almost guarantee you that you sang it with an "ah" vowel. 

Now sing the same note with an "ew" and "eh" and "ee" vowel. Notice the strain? 

Likewise, belting a higher note using a syllable like "la" is a hell of a lot easier to sing than "bee".


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## cygnusdei (May 21, 2021)

ProfoundSilence said:


> Wouldn't it be better to just fix the writing to match the instrument?
> 
> If your melody crosses 2 octaves it's not really a melody. If your melody sits in a spot that's high for tenors and low for Altos and you're having range issues, try splitting the part up motivally between the two as sort of a question and answer.
> 
> ...


From Symphonc Choirs product page


> Extended ranges (Sopranos - D3 to E5, Altos - F2 to A4, Tenors - C2 to D4, Basses B0 to D3)


I don't think one could be faulted to expect that sopranos can sing the middle C? But the middle C is out of range!


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## DANIELE (May 22, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Not necessarily @DANIELE
> 
> To bring off what you described, I'd suggest that you load three patches -- an "ooh" patch, an "aah" patch, and then a third instance of a word builder patch. (each on its own midi channel).
> 
> That way you can keep your lyrics on one and maybe it's less fiddling. However, if you have a long piece with four voices and a lot of text, you will have work cut out. Restarting lyrics only goes to the beginning, ( controller cc20 at 127).


Thank you, in my workflow I'm trying to use as less track as possible, I think is less dispersive. This is why I'm using playable patches for all the orchestra. That said another big problem would be the playback while writing. While I'm composing I tend to loop many parts many time to listen to flaws and to adjust every part, without some control to force starting the phrase where I need it to start it begins very difficult to write an entire piece, I should load a track for every phrase but it is very workflow breaking and resource demanding.

Let's say I have a track like this (S stays for Syllable):

First 8 measures: S1 S2 S3 S4

Second 8 measures: S5 S6 S7 S8

I need to loop the second 8 measures and I need the phrase to start from S5, without some control to do it it will begin every time on a different syllable based on the last one played.

Are you really telling me they didn't think about that? Since there are text markers for legato, staccato etc...it would be sufficient to add marker assignable to keyswitches or CCs. No workaround on this? How do you manage to work with WB like this?

Thank you.


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## cygnusdei (May 22, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Thank you, in my workflow I'm trying to use as less track as possible, I think is less dispersive. This is why I'm using playable patches for all the orchestra. That said another big problem would be the playback while writing. While I'm composing I tend to loop many parts many time to listen to flaws and to adjust every part, without some control to force starting the phrase where I need it to start it begins very difficult to write an entire piece, I should load a track for every phrase but it is very workflow breaking and resource demanding.
> 
> Let's say I have a track like this (S stays for Syllable):
> 
> ...


With Symphonic Choirs you can start anywhere, it doesn't have to be from the beginning.

On the separate note: my experience with the Word Builder is that using phonetic alphabet (they call it Votox), I would get the desired diction except when there are bugs (false sample reference ?) in which case no amount of tweaking in the time compound syllable editor would help anyway.


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## DANIELE (May 22, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> With Symphonic Choirs you can start anywhere, it doesn't have to be from the beginning.
> 
> On the separate note: my experience with the Word Builder is that using phonetic alphabet (they call it Votox), I would get the desired diction except when there are bugs (false sample reference ?) in which case no amount of tweaking in the time compound syllable editor would help anyway.


Ok, how do you manage to start from a specific point in the phrase?


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## cygnusdei (May 22, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> Ok, how do you manage to start from a specific point in the phrase?


I'm using the old interface mind you, but you'd just point to the desired syllable and press F4 I think.


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## DANIELE (May 22, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> I'm using the old interface mind you, but you'd just point to the desired syllable and press F4 I think.


OK this when you are working in the WB but how can you get this during playback, from the midi track? As far as I can see there is no ks or cc option to do it.


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## cygnusdei (May 22, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> OK this when you are working in the WB but how can you get this during playback, from the midi track? As far as I can see there is no ks or cc option to do it.


I'm probably doing things a little differently, my playback is directly from Sibelius. I'd point to the bar I want to start from, point to the corresponding syllable on the WB, press F4, and commence playback.


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## DANIELE (May 22, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> I'm probably doing things a little differently, my playback is directly from Sibelius. I'd point to the bar I want to start from, point to the corresponding syllable on the WB, press F4, and commence playback.


Yeah it is not the same thing I do. So there is no way to do it.

I could think about using the play instruments panel on the right by using a ks to midi CC plugin in Reaper. I can assign a phrase to every instrument so I can have full control on phrases at least.


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## pmcrockett (May 22, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> OK this when you are working in the WB but how can you get this during playback, from the midi track? As far as I can see there is no ks or cc option to do it.


You can sync the wordbuilder to the DAW playback so that it will base the syllable it uses on the DAW's playback position. It's limited in that you have to have both the notes and the syllables in place before you can have Play learn them, and it can't set the sync up automatically -- you have to initiate the sync and then run the playback for it to learn -- but it nevertheless makes detailed editing a lot less painful.


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## DANIELE (May 22, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> You can sync the wordbuilder to the DAW playback so that it will base the syllable it uses on the DAW's playback position. It's limited in that you have to have both the notes and the syllables in place before you can have Play learn them, and it can't set the sync up automatically -- you have to initiate the sync and then run the playback for it to learn -- but it nevertheless makes detailed editing a lot less painful.


This is an interesting function, I didn't understand how exactly works, now I understand a bit better.

I never used Play, if I load the same instrument on more instrument slots does it save memory as kontakt does?


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## pmcrockett (May 22, 2021)

DANIELE said:


> This is an interesting function, I didn't understand how exactly works, now I understand a bit better.
> 
> I never used Play, if I load the same instrument on more instrument slots does it save memory as kontakt does?


I think it does. The RAM indicator doesn't go up when I add more of the same patch.


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## dko22 (Dec 3, 2021)

cygnusdei said:


> I don't think one could be faulted to expect that sopranos can sing the middle C? But the middle C is out of range!


this is a huge frustration with Symphonic Choirs. Sopranos can sing in this choir far higher than many real choral sops would manage but at the least should be able sing the B just below below middle C. The tenors likewise can all sing lower than what EWQL has bothered to record. It's basically between a rock and a hard place. Using the Men's and Women's choirs eliminates this issue but then you have a huge dynamic imbalance between the common areas and the ones only singable by one of the voices. With work, in Play 5 you can adjust the individual mixer channels to boost above all the soprano high notes but now I'm trying out Play 6 which seems to apply any mixer adjustments to all (Wordbuilder) channels unlike Play 5. Can someone confirm? is it the same with Opus? 

Basically, I expect the Hollywood Choirs to be much better balanced so these problems shouldn't arise so am strongly considering getting it during the current sale. Anyone have comments on this side of things?


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## dhmusic (Dec 3, 2021)

dko22 said:


> I'm trying out Play 6 which seems to apply any mixer adjustments to all (Wordbuilder) channels unlike Play 5. Can someone confirm? is it the same with Opus?


That's how it is in Play 6 for me. Not sure about Opus though.

HC is much more forgiving in general to get something to about 80% of where you want it. SC still does a few things better though. A couple of the voiced consonants in HC (L and M) are almost useless in a wordbuilding context.

It's a good compliment for SC and vice versa


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## dko22 (Dec 3, 2021)

thanks! 80% is probably good enough. I'll certainly keep using Symphonic Choirs as it has lots of things that HC doesn't -- in particular a nice Boys choir. I'm thinking here particularly of sacred music 4 part choir for HC as that's where I have the greatest issues.


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## dko22 (Dec 3, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> You can sync the wordbuilder to the DAW playback


This would be a huge time saver but I'm afraid I don't understand at all how to do this?


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## pmcrockett (Dec 3, 2021)

dko22 said:


> This would be a huge time saver but I'm afraid I don't understand at all how to do this?


Pages 67-68 in the Hollywood Choirs manual describe the process (or pages 73-74 if you're going by the file's page numbers rather than the printed page numbers). The same process applies in Symphonic Choirs even though its manual doesn't mention it because the DAW sync is a wordbuilder feature that they added after SC's release, and it applies to all wordbuilder libraries.


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## dko22 (Dec 3, 2021)

thank very much for that. I can see it will take ages for all four voices so something to test in a quieter moment!


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## pmcrockett (Dec 3, 2021)

dko22 said:


> thank very much for that. I can see it will take ages for all four voices so something to test in a quieter moment!


Fortunately, you can run the sync process on all four voices at the same time if you arm all four instances of Play, so it only takes one total play-through of the piece to sync all voices.


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## dko22 (Dec 3, 2021)

I've now gone ahead and bought the Hollywood Choirs. So much easier to get results without endless tweaking but it's completely different from SC and they'll perform different roles. I wanted to have a look at the Opus player (v1.1) as well but cannot for the life of me bring up the Wordbuilder window. It's supposed to be under the PERFORM tab but, after loading a MEN WB patch, I see an empty window. Anyone come across this?

UPDATE this is now fixed - I was missing a patch which only appeared in the very latest version of the EW installation Centre


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## dko22 (Dec 3, 2021)

pmcrockett said:


> Fortunately, you can run the sync process on all four voices at the same time if you arm all four instances of Play, so it only takes one total play-through of the piece to sync all voices.


Ah,that's useful! I got the impression from the manual you could only do one at once.


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## dko22 (Dec 4, 2021)

Just a quick summary on the comparison between SC and HC after about a day with the latter. I used a fairly short Mass I'd previously written which only had a fairly modest amount done to it using SC. Out of the box, it's clearly better with HC and I'd definitely recommend that for people who simply don't have days or weeks to fine-tune everything. Gives a passionate and dramatic approach which I like but for more intimate music, small sections or boys choir then you'll want SC as well. They are different enough to justify both at the current sale prices. There are those who complain about lack of specialist techniques like legato or staccato and it is a fair point but quite how you'd get all this into Wordbuilder, I've no idea. Remember that no-one else has tried to so what EWQL has achieved here so some allowances should be made for the deficiencies -- and there most certainly are some -- here.

Secondly, I've come across a few technical oddities and annoyances regarding the differences between Play and Opus versions for both choirs which perhaps others can confirm or deny. I'd expected the output to be much the same but in fact it doesn't seem to be. 
1. Opus provides more "jerky" output which seems mainly to be caused by so far, inexplicable changes in dynamic on adjacent notes particularly. I would put it down to edits made but the same does not occur with PLAY 6. On the other hand,
2. You don't seem to be able to adjust individual channels in the mixer in Play but you can in Opus. This means you can more easily compensate for overall internal bad balance in the SC ranges in Opus but as this isn't necessary in HC, Opus only bring disadvantages it seems.


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## dhmusic (Dec 4, 2021)

dko22 said:


> This means you can more easily compensate for overall internal bad balance in the SC ranges in Opus but as this isn't necessary in HC, Opus only bring disadvantages it seems.


Except of course when you type "s" and a maraca+rainstick ensemble inexplicably materializes for a single *shake*, randomly dispersed throughout the stereo field


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## khari (Sep 29, 2022)

Is there a place or forum where users have shared words or phrases you could copy or maybe even import?


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