# Hourly rate for orchestration



## vlado hudec (Oct 10, 2011)

Hi guys,

I was contacted by one guy, he asked me, what is my hourly rate for orchestration. I never did music by hourly rates, so could you tell me somebody, how is normal rates for this?

Actually it is not only orchestration, it is creating mockup from midi file, which he will send me. I don't know, if he want also mixing and mastering, so could you tell me the rates for this?

Thanks

V


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 10, 2011)

Go to the Film Music Magazine store and get the current rate and survey guide which covers orchestrator fees for the US.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 10, 2011)

In general it's lower-end jobs that pay by the hour. Professional work like MIDI programming would either be on a day rate (if you were being paid by time) or by the project.


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## Pochflyboy (Oct 10, 2011)

Yeah a day rate or project rate is much more standard. Especially for this type of work. Did you ask his budget? If you didn't that is a great place to start.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 10, 2011)

Thinking about it, lawyers, therapists, and *gulp* college counselors charge by the hour, so maybe my vision of hotel rooms that rent by the hour was a little harsh. 

But what Pochflyboy says.^^^


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## Brian Ralston (Oct 10, 2011)

I haven't looked at it in a while...but isn't orchestration in the Local 47 done by the 4 bar page? i.e...4 bars of orchestrated score music per score page. Count the number of measures of music...divide by 4...multiply by the rate per page...there you go. 

Since pros are usually fast and efficient and newbies are most likely not so much...this is why union rates are usually by the measure and not by the hour. 

Unless something has changed or I am unaware of something.

Just because he asked you for your hourly rate...does not mean he is any more experienced at paying an orchestrator than you are at doing it. I would find out the rate per 4-bar page and charge that for the reasons I explained.


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## David Story (Oct 10, 2011)

Brian Ralston @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> I haven't looked at it in a while...but isn't orchestration in the Local 47 done by the 4 bar page? i.e...4 bars of orchestrated score music per score page. Count the number of measures of music...divide by 4...multiply by the rate per page...there you go.
> 
> Since pros are usually fast and efficient and newbies are most likely not so much...this is why union rates are usually by the measure and not by the hour.
> 
> ...



Here's the rates. Depends on how many staves, naturally. Fyi, experienced orchestrators get double this:
http://www.local802afm.org/wage/orchestration.htm


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## JJP (Oct 10, 2011)

David Story @ Mon Oct 10 said:


> Here's the rates. Depends on how many staves, naturally. Fyi, experienced orchestrators get double this:
> http://www.local802afm.org/wage/orchestration.htm


FYI: Motion picture (theatrical or TV film) rates have had a 2% increase over what is shown in that chart. Also know that the health and pension payments are in addition to the pages rates and are paid directly to the health and pension fund on the musician's behalf. (It works like a company health and pension plan.)

Also keep in mind that these rates are not total buyouts. These rates assume there is potential for special payments, secondary markets, re-use, or new use if the orchestration is used in a different market other than the one under which the contract was executed. When or if any of these payments are triggered depends on the project and the later usage of the music. Non-union jobs have no such potential for later money, so most professionals raise their rates if forced to work non-union.

Finally, these rates are union minimums. A union member may not charge any less than these rates. A union member most certainly may charge more depending on the project.


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## vlado hudec (Oct 11, 2011)

thanks everyone !

...but too much complicated for me :D


Simple question..guy send you midi file and your job is to create a midi mockup (maybe add some instruments or perc), maybe + mixing and mastering..lets say 2min track.

How much $ would you ask for this service?


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## Pochflyboy (Oct 11, 2011)

1. Still.... if you havent worked with him before... Ask his budget.

2. With the info we have right now it is kinda like saying I am selling a car. It has four wheels, brakes and an engine. How much should I ask?

3. For two minutes I would personally aim for anywhere from $100 to $1000... theres just not enough info at this point about the project.


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## David Story (Oct 11, 2011)

+1


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## rgames (Oct 11, 2011)

vlado hudec @ Tue Oct 11 said:


> How much $ would you ask for this service?


As has already been stated, there's no single answer.

However, you can certainly place a lower bound on it: how much do you *have* to charge to make it worth your while? Of course, don't reveal that number, but use it as a lower bound. If the offer comes back below it, don't take the gig.

It's interesting that these topics come up so regularly in the world of composers and musicians. In other industries (at least in the US), when independent entities agree to rates for products and services, it's called "collusion" and they get in legal trouble... 

Asking someone else what to charge for your product or service defeats the purpose of free markets. It's your job to figure it out 

rgames


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 11, 2011)

As usual I disagree - it's important to know what the going rate is.

The problem with union scale is that this isn't that kind of a job. It's easy to know what to charge when you're working on a real film - in fact they'll probably tell you - but for non-union knick-knack projects you aren't going to charge orchestration scale + performance scale for the number of sessions this would require with live instruments + mixing + studio + mastering and so on.

If you were in a large city in the US I'd figure your time and studio at about $500 a day for this kind of thing. Slovakia....I promise that none of us has any idea what to charge there.


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## vlado hudec (Oct 11, 2011)

Ok boys, I understand now, when I will have more details, I will put some info.

Thanks


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## JJP (Oct 11, 2011)

I always charge a straight page rate for standard orchestration: 1 page = four measures of music. The page rate is determined by the number of instruments (lines on the page) for which I will orchestrate. Bigger ensembles mean more work, so the rate goes up. This is standard union practice. That way I don't end up getting paid the same for a quartet as an 80 piece orchestra. Also the client doesn't have to pay for an 80 piece orchestration when she only needs orchestration for a quartet.

The reason I won't change an hourly rate for normal orchestration is because I don't want to be penalized for working fast. If I'm a skilled orchestrator who can work quickly, I shouldn't be paid less for the same amount of work as someone who works slowly.

I also don't bill per minute of music because that doesn't correlate to the amount of work. For example:
- 1 minute of music in 4/4 time at 180 bpm = 45 measures of music (11.5 pages of orchestration)
- 1 minute of music in 4/4 time at 80 bpm = 20 measures of music (5 pages of orchestration)
Extrapolate that over a large project and the difference could be hundreds of pages.

Billing per page also means that I can reasonably estimate orchestration costs if I know four things:
1. The size of the ensemble for which I'm orchestrating.
2. The total minutes of music
3. The average tempo of the music
4. How fast does the work need to be completed, i.e. will we need more than one orchestrator to complete the work?

Number 1 above determines the orchestration rate per page.
Numbers 2 & 3 allow estimation of the number of pages.
Number 4 allows me to determine if there will be a supervisor on the project and estimate the health and pension payments.

There are other things that may be added on which are usually changed hourly: proofreading, transcribing/notating exactly from some electronic media (not written music), any work that doesn't fall into standard orchestration work such as cleaning up unlabelled, un-quantized MIDI tracks before orchestration can begin. Sometimes, however, the page rate will just be raised to cover these additional costs.

o-[][]-o


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## JJP (Oct 11, 2011)

rgames @ Tue Oct 11 said:


> In other industries (at least in the US), when independent entities agree to rates for products and services, it's called "collusion" and they get in legal trouble...


That's why these rates are set through negotiations with employers themselves. That's not seen as collusion. The workers have a union and in the entertainment industry the employers have the AMPTP and other industry groups to represent and negotiate on their behalf. (Those different groups are part of the reason why you see different rates for various parts of the entertainment industry.)

The right for employees to collectively bargain with employers to establish minimum working conditions and compensations is well established in USA law as it is in most developed countries. This is about ensuring that workers have certain basic rights, are receiving a livable wage commensurate with the value they produce, and generally ensuring that workers are not exploited by those who control their paychecks and who are in a position to exploit them for personal gain. These protections are seen as important to a healthy society and the long-term viability of the economic structure.

Collusion and price fixing between businesses is a different situation which is detrimental to the overall economic structure because it prevents a level playing field for businesses and often extorts money from the public at large for a necessary good or service. That's why we have laws in the USA and other developed countries to penalize such activities... in theory anyway! :wink:


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## Nick Batzdorf (Oct 11, 2011)

^^ yeah baby.


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