# Trying to get back into composing and frustrated beyond belief. Need advice!



## newbycomposer (Aug 21, 2015)

Alright, I spent 4 years majoring in composition but never finished cause I had some health issues that make it hard to leave the house. I have taken a "break" from "composing" and have been more focused on songwriting, mainly metal because I always loved it, but Ive wanted to go back to more chamber music stuff lately. Every time I try to write I just hit a wall, Ive never had a problem like this, I've always been able to write SOMETHING. But it goes beyond writters block. I have NO IDEA how to write what I WANT to write. In school I had a teacher who was basicly an elitist and everything got turned into some super intellectual piece. Anything that sounded good or was harmonic based was "easy" so he wouldn't teach it to me. Well now I'm stuck. I have stuff I Like like these things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC14RwSsyTA (The witcher 3 soundtrack)(absolutely beautiful)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqUsnvSZXUQ (The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt OST - Ladies of the Woods)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G79SVJzljUM (Ben Monder - 39)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IR-JNrTcA (woodkid- Conquest of the spaces)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaH4W1rY9us (Ben Howard -oats in the water)

I can't write ANYTHING like this. AT ALL. Anything I write that sounds like it has a cool harmonic thing going on is literally me picking random chords with random leading tones, its all about color and then random notes leading your ear around cause I don't know what I'm doing. I can write a piece with a huge focus on tamber or dynamics or WHATEVER. But ask me to write anything that involves traditional harmony, even modal, is just completely me hitting random notes until I get something I like. Ive only got a few pieces I actually LIKE,this is one of them



Its good sounding, but its hardly complex or interesting. Oh and any percussive elements I have in ANYTHING I learned primary by writing metal drum parts, thats where 90% of my knowledge of using percussion comes from, because once again, it was "easy" and my teacher just skipped it because it was to far below him to teach it to me or something.

I have no idea where to start. I'm home bound cause of some health problems, so I got nothing but time, but don't know where to start in regards to writing music I actually like.

I know none of this stuff is any massively complex thing or even difficult, but I can't do it, and I want to, and I keep running into a wall when trying to write it. I don't have money to spend on books or lessons as most of thats going towards doctors right now lol.


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 21, 2015)

Have a think about the sort of music that really connects with you. Music that gets an emotional response from you, and ask yourself "Is this complex?". Often the answer is simply 'no'. There is incredibly moving and satisfying music out there based on one simple chord.
Do you play an instrument? How good is your ear at transcribing?
Next time you hear some music that clicks with you, particularly if it is new music you haven't come across before, play along with it. Or do a quick transcription or analysis. This will help internalise the musical idea, so that one day when you are writing, you might subconsciously work with that same idea. Of course, you mustn't plagiarise, but while composing as a hobby, study, or for the pure enjoyment of it, it can help get from A to B.

I can relate to much you have said. While I would love to consider myself a genius, versatile composer for any medium, the reality might be a different story. From experience, I know that I find it much easier to write if I have some visual stimuli. I can really impress myself sometimes! But, if i were to just sit at my DAW and write a piece of music for the sake of writing, that 'wall' pops up quick smart.

If you haven't already, I'd recommend looking into "creative flow" and just have a quick read up on it. The state of mind where we can let our ideas flow, unhindered by restrictive thoughts, is not easy to achieve. There are many factors that affect your mental performance, including physical and mental health. So I say, treat your body the best you can, and your mind will thank you.

And then there's the common-sense logic of *the more you practice, the better you'll get*. It only makes sense, right?


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## benatural (Aug 22, 2015)

Here's what I'd do. Boot up your sequencer, load up a piano patch with some nice verb on it, hit record and start playing at 80 bpm (or 60, or 120 doesn't matter). Don't "try" to write music. Don't even think about writing music. Just play. Don't stop recording even if it sounds bad and you mess up. Don't editorialize your playing. Do this for 15-20 minutes. Then, go back and listen to what you did. Break off the musical threads you found yourself playing into different regions. Go back to each and listen again. Trust me you won't be able to help it, there's a good chance you're going to start correcting things like rhythms, voice leading, harmonies, etc. Do that with all the regions you split out. Now try to stitch, rearrange, and massage those regions together into a single thing. Try not to spend too much time on it, don't think too hard about it

Now close the session, and open it back up the next day. You're going to start correcting more things you didn't hear the day before. Guess what? You're writing.

Works for me at least.


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## IoannisGutevas (Aug 22, 2015)

I couldnt agree more with what jdiggity1 said. Who made the rule that "complex" music is only beautiful? You can make wonders with even 1 chord or even 1 simple melody. EVERY composer i mean EVERYONE no matter how genius or amateur he/she is has been where you are. Everyone of us has at some point has reached in the place where you think you suck and you cant write anything good and you just hate yourself and everything and everyone around you seems masterful except the things you compose. Its natural, dont worry and dont give much attention to it. What jdiggity said and ill repeat is that the best way to get better at composing.. is to compose! 
The only thing that you need to ''evolve'' as a composer is your will to learn and the time to spend in composing and learning. From what you said you have both. Thats all the philosophical advice I can give you.

Now to the practical ones. You asked "where to start?". First of all you need to clarify some things.
How good you are in harmony and in counterpoint? You said you spend 4 years in majoring in composition so i assume you have a pretty good idea about those. If you dont then you should start there. You dont need to learn everything but a little harmony and a little counterpoint it will sure help you a lot. You can find in this site some very good tips on harmony and modulation tricks also. Thats the theoretical part. 

But even if you have all that you will need tech also. For that in order for any of us to give you advice you need to clarify some more things. What DAW you use and what VSTs you already have? Are you interesting in writing in a DAW with a bunch of VST instruments? Are you interested in writting in a DAW and you play / have a bunch of real instruments in your house? Unfortunately here you will need to spend some money and this stuff dont come cheap. But with the help of all these great guys in the forum im sure we can help you find a "budget" solution with the right VSTs to get you started.


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## muk (Aug 22, 2015)

It sounds like your blockade has a lot to do with your classes, and with yourself. You have got the tools to write music, you have got the skills. So, what's holding you back?

You were taught to write complex, intellectual, avant-garde music, and that is great. It really is. But actually you want to write tonal, harmonic music, and that you haven't been taught to do so. *To me it sounds like what you have been taught is interfering with what you want to do*. Free yourself from the thought that what you have been taught is the universal aproach on how to write music. If you want to write a simple, tonal, harmonic piece you don't need a deep intellectual layout first. You have been taught to come up with them, but here they are not applicable. So don't think you have to have one.
"But ask me to write anything that involves traditional harmony, even modal, is just completely me hitting random notes until I get something I like." That approach is completely fine! Do hit random notes! As eventually you come up with something you like, where's the problem? Your ex-teacher may not like this approach, but then again he doesn't like the music you want to write. Your not in classes anymore, so stop thinking you have to please your teacher. Please yourself. And what's wrong with learning from metal drumparts? If it fits your piece, go with it! From what you wrote I think that's one major issue with your blockade.

You know, I like to think that really good teaching doesn't only give you a manual on how to overcome a certain problem. That will only ever be applicable to that specific problem. Instead, it makes you learn how to tackle any problem. Good teaching sould show you how to learn for yourself! Seems like you are missing that bit at the moment. You have textbook rules that apply for certain circumstances, and that is good and valuable. But now these circumstances don't apply anymore, but you still try to go by the same textbook rules. Well, don't. It's time to find your own approach to these new circumstances. And regrettably it seems your teacher wasn't able to show you how to find your own approach.
As you are experiencing right now, tackling new circumstances can be a real struggle. Don't be desperate, that's a normal process. Free yourself from the thought you have to produce something great. Just sit down and come up with a piece. Nevermind the quality. At first, there will be pieces that are not so good. That is completely normal. But keep going and the pieces will improve. Familiarize yourself with some simpler pieces. The pieces you listed above are all professional, highest quality. And it is only normal that you won't be there right from the start. We all have to start somewhere.
Try not to overcomplicate that starting point. Have fun. Write just for fun. After all, that's what we are doing it for. If you can't like what you are doing - writing music - what's the point in doing it? True, it always needs an effort, needs work, but at it's heart there should always be you liking what you do. Not necessarily the outcome, but the process of writing! Right now I think you have it backwards. You think you have to come up with a clever piece that you really like. But it's really not the point. You should like the process of writing (!!!), and don't mind so much what's the outcome for now. If you like writing, you'll do it. If writing is straining and nothing else because you only think about what you have to achieve with it, eventually you will stop. And that would be a real pitty.
All the best to your composing, and I hope you get well.


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## newbycomposer (Aug 22, 2015)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Have a think about the sort of music that really connects with you. Music that gets an emotional response from you, and ask yourself "Is this complex?". Often the answer is simply 'no'. There is incredibly moving and satisfying music out there based on one simple chord.



Well, the problem is even non complex music seems to be beyond me, at least in regards to harmony. I'm not looking to make "complex" music, just interesting music, enjoyable music. For me, I know a song is good when I like to listen to it myself. Fundamentally thats why I'm making music at this point in my life, for myself. What do I want to listen to? What do I want to hear? The problem is I can't seem to write stuff I myself enjoy outside one or 2 pieces. 



Jdiggity1 said:


> Next time you hear some music that clicks with you, particularly if it is new music you haven't come across before, play along with it. Or do a quick transcription or analysis. This will help internalise the musical idea, so that one day when you are writing, you might subconsciously work with that same idea. Of course, you mustn't plagiarise, but while composing as a hobby, study, or for the pure enjoyment of it, it can help get from A to B.



Yeah I do this, its one of the things I picked up in college. basiclly if I like a peice I write a peice straight ripping it off. All the material used in the song I write is mine but its obviously still a rip off, generally those stay locked in the vault lol. for example I really liked this band so I found one of their songs (though not one of their best) and did that to it. The first link is to the song the second to my song based off it.





The problem is that while it helped tremendously with writting in that style, I can't get sheet music for most of the stuff that I like. Guitar tabs arn't horribly hard to find for the most part. But stuff for woodkid, soundtracks, diablo swing orchestra, ect.? Near impossible. At best you can find a piano arrangement but its leaving out so much you can't tell whats going on in the original. 




benatural said:


> Here's what I'd do. Boot up your sequencer, load up a piano patch with some nice verb on it, hit record and start playing at 80 bpm (or 60, or 120 doesn't matter). Don't "try" to write music. Don't even think about writing music. Just play. Don't stop recording even if it sounds bad and you mess up. Don't editorialize your playing. Do this for 15-20 minutes. Then, go back and listen to what you did. Break off the musical threads you found yourself playing into different regions. Go back to each and listen again. Trust me you won't be able to help it, there's a good chance you're going to start correcting things like rhythms, voice leading, harmonies, etc. Do that with all the regions you split out. Now try to stitch, rearrange, and massage those regions together into a single thing. Try not to spend too much time on it, don't think too hard about it
> 
> Now close the session, and open it back up the next day. You're going to start correcting more things you didn't hear the day before. Guess what? You're writing.
> 
> Works for me at least.



Well, I want to be able to control it, right now I don't feel like I have much control over the music when writting in this way, I'm just hitting random notes and deleting anything thats not great, or playing random long chords then orchestrating them out (poorly I might add) and throwing a "melody" on top of it and a few random things for color. Maybe a little percussion as well. But thats it. I really am not in much control over what I write and that seems a big problem. I wouldn't mind getting into media music but you have to be able to control what you write for that, you shouldn't but blast beats behind an emotional crying scene just because thats "what the music wants".





IoannisGutevas said:


> First of all you need to clarify some things.
> How good you are in harmony and in counterpoint? You said you spend 4 years in majoring in composition so i assume you have a pretty good idea about those. If you dont then you should start there. You dont need to learn everything but a little harmony and a little counterpoint it will sure help you a lot. You can find in this site some very good tips on harmony and modulation tricks also. Thats the theoretical part.




Its mixed. If you want me to write something in "counterpoints" thats easy. Something in 4 parts isn't super hard in essence. When one part is still have the other part playing something. However in practice, writing a piece I'm not good at it, because I can't manage the harmonic aspect. 

To illustrate I just spent 15 minutes writing a (very) short counterpoint phrase. I picked random chords for each measure and built counterpoint around them.



Its "meh", it could use a lot of work but thats a short sketch. Nothing to crazy. However when not writting specifically counterpoint stuff I just can't make the connection. I also don't know what chords to use to get the idea across I want to get across. I have no idea when it comes to common practice counter point, I have no idea how I passed those classes AT ALL. lol.

I don't really have trouble with the act of modulation so much as I do knowing when to use it.



IoannisGutevas said:


> But even if you have all that you will need tech also. For that in order for any of us to give you advice you need to clarify some more things. What DAW you use and what VSTs you already have? Are you interesting in writing in a DAW with a bunch of VST instruments? Are you interested in writting in a DAW and you play / have a bunch of real instruments in your house? Unfortunately here you will need to spend some money and this stuff dont come cheap. But with the help of all these great guys in the forum im sure we can help you find a "budget" solution with the right VSTs to get you started.



I have cubase 7.5 and hollywood string/brass/woodwinds diamond along with a bunch of other stuff from Eastwest. I would obviously prefer to use real instruments but right now I'm only using vst's with the exception of non choral vocal stuff because I'm a vocalist myself (I'm not very good at singing but I got a GREAT metal/screaming voice  )

Everything Ive posted on here thats mine was done with virtual instruments. Guitar was shreddage 2 and guitar rig/Impusles and drums have been addicting drums 2.



muk said:


> It sounds like your blockade has a lot to do with your classes, and with yourself. You have got the tools to write music, you have got the skills. So, what's holding you back?



Mostly my lack of knowlege. I LIKE intelectually attacking what I'm working on and controling it and knowing what I'm doing, the problem is I can't do that in regards to harmony or melodic music or anything with more than 4 voices and Ive just hit a wall.

I think my points to the other people also are a good reply to yours so I'm not going to elaborate more (didn't want you to think I was just ignoring you)


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## newbycomposer (Aug 22, 2015)

In retrospect, after that little exercise I might not know much at all about counterpoint anymore


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## benatural (Aug 22, 2015)

Hmm. I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but for me, control doesn't matter. I'll take inspiration in whatever form I can. I'm more than happy to take a happy accident and turn it into a piece of music. 

To each their own. But since you're struggling to even write a single note, you may want to compromise with yourself in the short term just to get the creative juices flowing again. I recommend putting control on hold for now, it might actually be the thing that's holding you back. Creativity is a fickle thing, if you pressure yourself too much, it might go into hiding.

Have you ever seen Brian Eno's idea generator? Check it out, you might find it useful

http://www.oblicard.com


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## IoannisGutevas (Aug 23, 2015)

You have the wrong approach in writting music imo and that comes from all your studies. This isnt "connect the dots" problem where you are presented with a chord or a melody and you have to write the counterpoint and / or the harmonies. It isnt math, it is inspiration, it is creativity, it's trial and error and a billion hours of writting and deleting and rewritting until it sounds the way you want to.
When you are presented with a problem on music theory class the only thing you have to do to solve it is follow some rules. Welcome to the real world  This is not a class and there is no magic recipe that will solve your 'problem' of composing a song that you havent even started yet.
Stop thinking like a theorist, cause you are a practitioner now. Dont get me wrong theory is fine, but it doesnt help you create a song, thats inspiration and trial and error. Theory will help you to make the song you create more interesting but in the creation itself theory plays almost 0 part.
You said you want to control it. You can, but you have to do 2 things. 1st you have to believe in yourself. To quote Morpheus from Matrix "Dont THINK you are good, KNOW you are good". And you are good mate, you have all the knowledge and more than you need to compose a song and a lot of the best vsts to do it. 2nd thing you have to do is spend a billion hours and practice and write and delete and write and delete.. We have a saying here in Greece it says "Repetition is the mother of all learning".
Each time you will get a little better till that little by little will turn out to be a LOT better and you will see the difference.
You need patience, passion and dedication to the art of composing and belief in yourself.
The only thing that holds you back is yourself.


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## scottbuckley (Aug 25, 2015)

This is a serious problem that has plagued me since my time working in the US. I completely burnt out on writing trailer music, and I couldn't write anything without getting angry and frustrated with the whole process. I literally couldn't handle it. I hated everything I wrote.

I've had to retrain myself to write again, and it has taken years to get to a point where I can sit down for a couple of hours to compose, and still feel sane at the end of it. This whole thing as taught me that my mood, happiness - whatever - was innately linked to how successful my writing was, which I don't think is a productive thing, and which I think is a problem for many composers and musicians. Let's admit it - we are a weird bunch. But this compounds when you run into problems writing anything you feel is good. It's a real challenge keep writing when it feels like bashing your head against a brick wall.

I think (like myself) you are getting in your head. It's hard to get out again, especially if you aren't well to begin with. My advice will be to just keep working at it, even if it's a couple of minutes a day. Don't think your music has to be complex, either. Some of my favourite music is incredibly simple, like '4-chords' simple.

I've also found that having a new palette of virtual instruments also spices things up - for me atleast. I know you are strapped for cash, but perhaps you could find some of the freebie libraries out there to play with (for instance, Intimate Strings http://www.embertone.com/freebies/intstrings-lite.php), and just play around. If you can stretch your budget, perhaps the EW Composer Cloud might be an option for you too - it might just open your ears to some new possibilities.

Anyway, mate. Know that you aren't alone.


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## newbycomposer (Aug 31, 2015)

benatural said:


> Hmm. I guess it's a matter of personal preference, but for me, control doesn't matter. I'll take inspiration in whatever form I can. I'm more than happy to take a happy accident and turn it into a piece of music.
> 
> To each their own. But since you're struggling to even write a single note, you may want to compromise with yourself in the short term just to get the creative juices flowing again. I recommend putting control on hold for now, it might actually be the thing that's holding you back. Creativity is a fickle thing, if you pressure yourself too much, it might go into hiding.
> 
> ...



well I'll take all the happy accidents I can get, the problem is I get a good idea and then don't know what to do with the rest of the peice, yeah I might have an AMAZING 5 measures, but if everything else around it is absolutly horrific its not exactly going to shine.




scottbuckley said:


> This is a serious problem that has plagued me since my time working in the US. I completely burnt out on writing trailer music, and I couldn't write anything without getting angry and frustrated with the whole process. I literally couldn't handle it. I hated everything I wrote.



haha I wouldn't mind writting trailer music, its certainly not ALL I want to write but I can never quite get it, or anything "fast" for that matter. 





scottbuckley said:


> I've had to retrain myself to write again, and it has taken years to get to a point where I can sit down for a couple of hours to compose, and still feel sane at the end of it. This whole thing as taught me that my mood, happiness - whatever - was innately linked to how successful my writing was, which I don't think is a productive thing, and which I think is a problem for many composers and musicians. Let's admit it - we are a weird bunch. But this compounds when you run into problems writing anything you feel is good. It's a real challenge keep writing when it feels like bashing your head against a brick wall.



Well, my problem is I write and I think "I can't do anything with that". Most of my stuff that sounds good was me writting something REALLY crappy then grinding away at it until it sounded good(ish). But the last few weeks every time I sit down I get something thats just HORRIBLE. I mean, we are talking absolutly god awful horrible. You would think I was a tone deaf toddler putting random notes on the page, and not in a 20th century "thats interesting" kinda way either.





scottbuckley said:


> I think (like myself) you are getting in your head. It's hard to get out again, especially if you aren't well to begin with. My advice will be to just keep working at it, even if it's a couple of minutes a day. Don't think your music has to be complex, either. Some of my favourite music is incredibly simple, like '4-chords' simple.



I'll try that. I'm trying to simplify my music some but at the same time I want it to be interesting.



scottbuckley said:


> I've also found that having a new palette of virtual instruments also spices things up - for me atleast. I know you are strapped for cash, but perhaps you could find some of the freebie libraries out there to play with (for instance, Intimate Strings http://www.embertone.com/freebies/intstrings-lite.php), and just play around. If you can stretch your budget, perhaps the EW Composer Cloud might be an option for you too - it might just open your ears to some new possibilities.



GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA. I really need to get kontact at some point, All I have is the player. Those sound REALLY good, like, better than the eastwest stuff I'm using. Ive wasted a LOT of money on stuff, I use less than half the eastwest stuff Ive gotten, but I'm really thinking I need to save up and buy kontact just so I have it and not the free player version. There is a cello instrument for it thats also free that I would love to use.


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## gsilbers (Aug 31, 2015)

newbycomposer said:


> Alright, I spent 4 years majoring in composition but never finished cause I had some health issues that make it hard to leave the house. I have taken a "break" from "composing" and have been more focused on songwriting, mainly metal because I always loved it, but Ive wanted to go back to more chamber music stuff lately. Every time I try to write I just hit a wall, Ive never had a problem like this, I've always been able to write SOMETHING. But it goes beyond writters block. I have NO IDEA how to write what I WANT to write. In school I had a teacher who was basicly an elitist and everything got turned into some super intellectual piece. Anything that sounded good or was harmonic based was "easy" so he wouldn't teach it to me. Well now I'm stuck. I have stuff I Like like these things.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC14RwSsyTA (The witcher 3 soundtrack)(absolutely beautiful)
> 
> ...






How about transcribing and copying the production of those tracks you like when you hit a wall? bring the track into your DAW and copy sounds, chords and melodies mix etc.
with enough understanding of those simple, yet good pieces you can start learning the recipe and weeding off the elitist background in the head. Then you can mix and match, chords, tones, melody, structures etc make up your own using what you've been taught before etc. and hopefully one day you can sit down and know exactly what to do, where to start etc.


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## newbycomposer (Aug 31, 2015)

gsilbers said:


> How about transcribing and copying the production of those tracks you like when you hit a wall? bring the track into your DAW and copy sounds, chords and melodies mix etc.
> with enough understanding of those simple, yet good pieces you can start learning the recipe and weeding off the elitist background in the head. Then you can mix and match, chords, tones, melody, structures etc make up your own using what you've been taught before etc. and hopefully one day you can sit down and know exactly what to do, where to start etc.




Long story short, cause my aural skills SUCK. I mean they REALLY suck. I can learn pretty well if I can get a score in front of me (thank god for guitar tabs and tuxguitar which turns it into sheet music) but by ear I'm basically lost.


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## AlexandreSafi (Aug 31, 2015)

Newbycomposer!
-Unlearn what you have learned!
-Love that you don't know!
-Pm Mike Verta for advice,
-Get his composition 1 class:
http://mikeverta.com/wordpress/masterclasses/online-masterclass-composition-1/
-Transcribe (whether you have the score or not...)
-Sing, play, let go...
-Reduce your ear analysis to melody and bassline, if in trouble...
Plus, you know... Rejecting your own early ideas often can be a sign of wisdom....
-A.s.-


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