# Breath of Dawn (intro added) Piccolo demo



## Guy Bacos (Sep 22, 2010)

This is a demo dedicated to the flute piccolo in an orchestral setting. 

(piccolo is from the VSL downloads)

Breath of Dawn after Storm

Comments are welcomed.

EDIT: I have added an intro to show the character of the piccolo in it's full power. The title needed to be adjusted....


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## Krakatau (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*

I won't comment the composing aspect but maybe the overall sounds are a bit too loud ? ...too present ?

I would easily imagine a reverb, too responsive to middle range frequencies for instance, that can be responsible to the fact ... 
...or slightly modify the overall equalization curve consequently ?


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## Rob (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*

yeah that nice little sparrow is singing for the break of morning...


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## tommalm (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*

Beautiful! Love the way the piccolo sits above the bed of tremolo strings, sounds fantastic! 

-tom


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## Krakatau (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*

Just let me add if you don't mind too much that i simply can't comment what is clearly over my competence. That said it reminds me some musical pieces of gerschwin "rapsody in blue" or some orchestral passages of "yellow submarine"

Intuitively thinking about it as a musical descrition of a dawn, it suggest me something rather quiet and comforting but more like a cold and foggy morning rather than the warming sun of an early morning sunrise... 

No offense of course it could be perfectly deliberate, but purely as music lover point of view ( _"Mélomane"_) i feel it as a bit austere (_"transi"_) to my ears

For my own guidance though, I would be curious to know what is the library, the articulations involved in this piccolo flute part and how these ones are arranged throughout this piece !


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## germancomponist (Sep 23, 2010)

Guy, this piece is soooo beautiful! I am very impressed, there are so many feelings on and between the notes... . 

You did a very great (but too short) composing here!

My best,

Gunther


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## JohnG (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*

Wow. Really lovely writing. I think you need to hire a real piccolo player, but then I always think that!

I particularly like your including the lower range of the piccolo, which is actually its most expressive -- and neglected -- feature.

Very pretty, Guy


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## Narval (Sep 23, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*

A few observations: 
(1) The piccolo notes are not coming from one stable point in space, they are jumping around like the QL Gypsy Violin. Well, to be completely fair, - _almost._
(2) There are slight but awkward dynamic inconsistencies among the notes within the same phrase. Something that a real player won't do, or even be able to do.
(3) The initial piccolo melody calls for legato, yet the attacks of the notes separates them so neatly that they're giving the impression of being played on a keyboard.


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## Krakatau (Sep 25, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*



Narval @ 23rd September 2010 said:


> The piccolo notes are not coming from one stable point in space, they are jumping around like the QL Gypsy Violin. Well, to be completely fair, - _almost._



I noticed this, if there's no stereo widening treatment on the mix (and i don't think so), i assume this is likely a phase shift problem on some stereo samples inside a patch, 
- to be reported to the bugfix list of the developpers of that library, i guess...


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## germancomponist (Sep 25, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*



Krakatau @ Sat Sep 25 said:


> I noticed this, if there's no stereo widening treatment on the mix (and i don't think so), i assume this is likely a phase shift problem on some stereo samples inside a patch,
> - to be reported to the bugfix list of the developpers of that library, i guess...



This also happens on some other VSL instruments, but in other libs, too. o/~


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## Krakatau (Sep 25, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*

Interesting...

...so it seems to be a common issue with many libraries, did this ever justified a dedicated topic on the sample talk forum for instance ?
I easily suppose that any serious library devs would highly appreciate feedbacks on the problem !

Sorry for the hijack, just in case...


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## germancomponist (Sep 25, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo)*



Krakatau @ Sat Sep 25 said:


> .. did this ever justified a dedicated topic on the sample talk forum for instance ?
> I easily suppose that any serious library devs would highly appreciate feedbacks on the problem ! ...



It did, and the most libraries got an update... .

One reason because I like Kontakt sampler so very much: There you can adjust those things in a half minute. o/~


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 25, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo) intro added*

Thanks a lot guys, I appreciate the comments!

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## Narval (Sep 25, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo) intro added*



Guy Bacos @ Sat Sep 25 said:


> Maybe it bothers some more than others?


Not being bothered 
by unimportant details 
is bliss. 

Or, 
maybe, 
it could be the bliss 
that makes details 
unimportant. 

Not sure which comes first.

Maybe there's no "first,"
like a snake eating its tail.


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## Krakatau (Sep 26, 2010)

*Re: Breath of Dawn (Piccolo demo) intro added*



Guy Bacos @ 25th September 2010 said:


> I have added an intro to show the character of the piccolo in it's full power. The title needed to be modified....



At my level of knowledge comparing both states of your composition , i'm impressed by subtility of the jonction with the original writing and the accuracy of the entire orchestra during the decrescendo that preceeds it


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## Jason (Sep 26, 2010)

I always look forward to your demos, Guy. This is definitely one of my favorites.  Reminds me of Debussy. There's a composer who would have written some amazing film music. 

Great use of the VSL Piccolo- could much of this could be performed with the downloadable VSL Piccolo? I have SE and several of the downloadable woodwinds, but I think I'm hearing a lot of articulations that might only exist in the full Woodwinds package.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 26, 2010)

Krakatau,

Thanks! I appreciate this comment a lot since I worked quite hard to make this transition work.


Rob, 

I won't comment about the panning since it may very well be a reverb or plug in issue, I'll check that when I get a chance.

Regarding the expression, I must agree with John though, and I think the Piccolo is not one of those instrument known for its great expression as the flute or any other WW, so you shouldn't expect TOO much expression from it, it plays more of an effect role in the orchestra, either with cute fast figures or piercing through the orchestra, despite me using it for melodies and if not for demo purposes would likely be split with the regular flute. However the lower range of this piccolo has some interesting overtones, and this is where I'm with John.



Jason,

Thanks!

I like to think that my latest demo is always my best one, with a few exception maybe, but I was quite proud of this one. And yes, the piccolo used in this demo is the one from the download library. The full library offers more articulations, so you could have more possibilities, but this one was dedicated to the downloads.


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## Rob (Sep 26, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ 26th September 2010 said:


> ...
> 
> 
> Regarding the expression, I must agree with John though. The Piccolo is not one of those instrument known for it's expression as the flute or any other WW, so you shouldn't expect much expression from it, it plays more of an effect role in the orchestra, either with cute fast figures or piercing through the orchestra, despite me using it for melodies and if not for demo purposes would likely be split with the regular flute. However the lower range of the piccolo has some interesting overtones, and this is where I'm with John.
> ...



entirely subjective... after a lifetime playing flute and piccolo, I know what I'm talking about, of course


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 26, 2010)

Ah, well for a flute or piccolo player, yes, I'm sure there is a big difference, no argument there.


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## JBacal (Sep 26, 2010)

The new intro is an exciting addition to an excellent piece! 

I'd like to hear this piece rendered with the articulations of the full piccolo library-- the lyrical performance legato articulation (and others) would add nicely to the expressivity.

Best,
Jay


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 26, 2010)

Thanks Jay!

I'd say if someone just needs the piccolo for the basic articulations this is a good library, but if you want more expression, the full library will serve you better, it has a lot more dynamic possibilities, and of course, I wish I were able to use them in this demo, since it call for them.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 26, 2010)

I liked the writing.

i find intent is the most important concern when listening to demos and i think many miss that and go straight to what's wrong as opposed to is it a well written piece.


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## Rob (Sep 26, 2010)

yes, but when Guy posts his demos they are usually intended to show the VSL instrument, and as such I find it reasonable to comment on that, how is the timbre, the coherence in phrasing, the expression etc


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## michaelv (Sep 26, 2010)

Early 20th Century bliss,lol! Debussy conversing with Respighi in forest covered hills. Great stuff, as always Guy.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 26, 2010)

Thanks Craig and Michael.

For earlier comments:

Of course the main goal is the library. But I try to show so much more than the library itself, and yes, naturally, I do appreciate comments regarding the other aspects.  

ps I brought up the sound of the piccolo a bit since there was some recent focus on the timbre, I think some of it was buried in the orchestra. In normal times I wouldn't mix it as loud, but for this demo purpose it seems more necessary.


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## synergy543 (Sep 26, 2010)

Fantastic writing Guy, very evocative. You really show how the piccolo contrasts and accents the colors of the orchestra. The piccolo doesn't have the most colorful timbre itself, yet as you show, it plays such an vital role in orchestral expression.


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## Narval (Sep 26, 2010)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Sep 26 said:


> I liked the writing.
> 
> i find intent is the most important concern when listening to demos and i think many miss that and go straight to what's wrong as opposed to is it a well written piece.





Rob @ Sun Sep 26 said:


> yes, but when Guy posts his demos they are usually intended to show the VSL instrument, and as such I find it reasonable to comment on that, how is the timbre, the coherence in phrasing, the expression etc


Big +1. Of course, what you say is reasonable. Only that, very often, as you have probably seen, what's reasonable gets overlooked, covered up, misinterpreted, misjudged, belittled, ridiculed, silenced, or plainly frown upon, in order to favor agendas and politics.

Of course, purpose is extremely important when writing music. However, in this case, as you said, it is reasonable to assume that the composer's purpose was LESS to get his writing skills applauded, and MORE to promote a product. And when you see that the product has some issues, it's only reasonable to think that pointing them out would lead to the improvement of the product - in any case, to a higher degree than NOT pointing them out.

More generally, purpose truly is a fundamental principle to writing music. Imo, when writing a piece of music, two things are most important: (1) to never lose sight of what you are doing it for, and (2) make sure that the piece not only aims at that but really does serve that purpose. For example - 
If you're writing it to learn technicalities, and you do learn technicalities, then the piece has done its job.
If you're writing it for self-gratifying, and listening to it is self-gratifying, then the piece has done its job. 
If you're writing it to show your approach to music, and it shows it, then the piece has done its job.
If you're writing it to get applauded, and you get some applause, then the piece has done its job.
If you're writing it to expose a product, and the product gets exposed, then the piece has done its job.
If you're writing it for the money, and you get the money, then the piece has done its job.
Etc.


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## michaelv (Sep 26, 2010)

Narval @ Sun Sep 26 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Sun Sep 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I liked the writing.
> ...



Sledgehammer.Nut.


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## Narval (Sep 26, 2010)

michaelv @ Sun Sep 26 said:


> Sledgehammer.Nut.


Very thoughtful. And reasonable.


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## synergy543 (Sep 26, 2010)

Narval, sometimes music has a higher purpose than simply being purely functional. Guy does not need to put as much work and effort into these demos as he does as he goes far beyond the extra mile. He could very quickly create a piece that "does its job", and simply be done with it. Clearly though, there's something more going on. Somewhere along the process of creating a "functional demo" there is some higher motivation and inspiration that's going on. Despite being a lot of work at times, I'm sure Guy gains some form of gratification from his work as do many of us who get a sense of pleasure and inspiration from hearing what he's done (warts and all).


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## Narval (Sep 26, 2010)

Of course a piece of music has many functions and effects. I was just supporting Rob's (and my) point that, in this particular case, the MAIN purpose of this piece was to promote a product. If I'm wrong about that, then what was its main purpose?


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## synergy543 (Sep 26, 2010)

Music is a way to communicate and enjoy this short moment in time. In the big scheme of things, we're just a speck in the Universe, and a blip in time. Ultimately there is no purpose and as Freddie Mercury said "nothing really matters".

Music is wonderful experience though for those who can appreciate and enjoy this little moment in time.


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## Narval (Sep 26, 2010)

Enjoying music is one thing, and pointing out the shortcomings of a product is another. Each of them has its own importance. Also, when you say "nothing really matters," that includes both your own enjoyment and the VSL piccolo issues, yes?


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 26, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Sep 26 said:


> Fantastic writing Guy, very evocative. You really show how the piccolo contrasts and accents the colors of the orchestra. The piccolo doesn't have the most colorful timbre itself, yet as you show, it plays such an vital role in orchestral expression.



Thanks a lot Greg! :wink:


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## synergy543 (Sep 26, 2010)

Narval @ Sun Sep 26 said:


> Also, when you say "nothing really matters," that includes both your own enjoyment and the VSL piccolo issues, yes?


Well, I do sense and feel something...although I can't "prove it". Its a sense of exhiliration and excitement....hard to describe, like "consciousness", does it really exist?

What about you? Why do you bother replying? Could you possibly be "sensing" something you don't like? (for what purpose?) 
Or is your motive as purely altruisitic as you imply, to help improve VSL? (commendable if true, if not, then.....oh well, ...never mind)


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## poseur (Sep 26, 2010)

i enjoyed that immensely, guy;
thanks for posting it, really!

fwiw, i hear in mono (but, listen either in stereo or 5.1),
so while i'm often insensitive to panning & placement,
i'm extremely sensitive to issues of phase-correlation.....
..... but, noticed nothing untoward, here, in that specific regard.

again, thanks;
lovely music, & extremely well-executed for sample-based presentation.
i hope we can look forward to hearing a live or hybridised version of this superb piece of music!

d


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## Krakatau (Sep 26, 2010)

poseur @ 26th September 2010 said:


> lovely music, & *extremely well-executed for sample-based presentation.*




Indeed, masterly worked especially in regard to my experience, i'm for one, perhaps not such sensitive to the musical style and the related scales 
But this point is more than absolutely indisputable...


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks Krakatau and poseur! Much appreciated!


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## Narval (Sep 27, 2010)

synergy543 @ Sun Sep 26 said:


> is your motive as purely altruisitic as you imply, to help improve VSL?


Whether my motive is purely altruistic or impurely egotistic is completely pointless and relevant to absolutely nothing, afaiac. Btw, in that regard, I wasn't implying anything, just making the objective observation that pointing to issues is more likely to lead to improvement than ignoring them. But you can of course question the _purity_ of my personal motive for pointing to those technical issues - if questioning personal motives is more important to you than taking a look into those issues. However, everything is questionable, including the questioning itself, and including the truth value of this - 



> I do sense and feel something... Its a sense of exhiliration and excitement.... (commendable if true, if not, then.....oh well, ...never mind)


Needless to say, if everything is questionable, then, as you well said, nothing really matters. Unless you think it matters, that is. But if not, then, as you (once again) well said, never mind. And if you mind, that doesn't matter just as well. As you well said.


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## synergy543 (Sep 27, 2010)

Narval @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> Needless to say, if everything is questionable, then, as you well said, nothing really matters. Unless you think it matters, that is. But if not, then, as you (once again) well said, never mind. And if you mind, that doesn't matter just as well. As you well said.


Narval, you fail the Turing test, but you might enjoy this:
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/06/24/science/1247468035233/interview-with-a-robot.html?ex=1297569600&en=75c07a1157f98704&ei=5087&WT.mc_id=BR-D-I-NYT-AD-FP-DYK-ROS-0810-IWAR&WT.mc_ev=click (http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/06/ ... c_ev=click)


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## michaelv (Sep 27, 2010)

This guy's a party killer: I can see them leaving in droves when he arrives. He'd pick a fight in a empty elevator.

Fine augmentation,Guy. Funny how some people love to shout their mouths off, without offering a single original thought or creation of their own.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 27, 2010)

A dozen people must of asked Narval to post some music in the last 6 months, but he keeps ignoring it. The day he will post some of his own music, if ever, I think he will stop being such a wise guy, or less.


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## dcoscina (Sep 27, 2010)

Guy, this is terrific stuff. I love the Impressionist style you used especially in the supporting orchestration. It feels very fluid and magical. This is really gorgeous music. Great VSL demo too. 

I dunno but lately it seems that most VSL based demos seem so great compositionally that I'm concentrating on the music rather than the technology behind it which is kinda the point if you really get down to it. The samples should not be the focus but allow the composer to fully realize his/her creation and I have to say that with VI PRO, it's a LOT easier to do this. 

Sorry for the aside Guy because I don't want to take away from your piece. It's great and I love your harmonic progressions. Are you using The Cube BTW?


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 27, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> Guy, this is terrific stuff. I love the Impressionist style you used especially in the supporting orchestration. It feels very fluid and magical. This is really gorgeous music. Great VSL demo too.
> 
> I dunno but lately it seems that most VSL based demos seem so great compositionally that I'm concentrating on the music rather than the technology behind it which is kinda the point if you really get down to it. The samples should not be the focus but allow the composer to fully realize his/her creation and I have to say that with VI PRO, it's a LOT easier to do this.
> 
> Sorry for the aside Guy because I don't want to take away from your piece. It's great and I love your harmonic progressions. Are you using The Cube BTW?



Thanks a lot David! 

I use my jazz harmonic notions and impressionistic background together in this demo.

I think with the depth of the VSL libraries you have those possibilities of more complex and interesting pieces, so what you say wouldn't surprise me.

That's an interesting comment about focusing on the music as oppose to too much on the samples. My primary or initial goal is not to get a passage to sound like a real instrument, I feel that's taking it backwards. I first look for the expression and character, once that is obtained, it suddenly sounds so much livelier and with that live effect. A few adjustments after that and it sweetens the sound. 

I'm using the full library, I believe that is the Cube? Except for the piccolo, which is from the downloads.


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## dcoscina (Sep 27, 2010)

To Jay,

I don't like the disclaimer that one has to post his own music in order to have an opinion about other people's music. I think it's a thin argument and actually has nothing to do with one another. 

My point is, anyone can have an opinion. Whether it's informed or not doesn't depend on one's own compositional ability. Some people studying music for years and can describe and critique it up and down but they cannot compose themselves. likewise, there are PLENTY of guys who know squat about composing but still plunk away and post stuff. 

Guy has mad music chops and his recent VSL demos have left me stunned at the sonic quality and more importantly, compositional quality. These are damn good pieces, not damn good demo pieces. They feel like real music, not some attempt at showing off a library to increase sales. At least that's the way they strike me. Opinions may vary


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## Ashermusic (Sep 27, 2010)

dcoscina @ Mon Sep 27 said:


> To Jay,
> 
> I don't like the disclaimer that one has to post his own music in order to have an opinion about other people's music. I think it's a thin argument and actually has nothing to do with one another.



As I have made clear in other posts IMHO an opinion is only valuable if it comes from someone with proven ability, either by a body of work or some examples. Otherwise, it is just verbal diarrhea and not worthy of anyone's consideration. The conventional thinking that has sprung up in recent years that all opinions are valuable is just laughable and b.s. IMHO.

Narval has given no one here any reason to think his opinion is worthy of respect other than he writes it. That is not enough.


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## sherief83 (Sep 27, 2010)

You sir are awesome once again. I love your orchestrations. I'm assuming harp is VSL correct?


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## tmhuud (Sep 27, 2010)

Breathtaking as usual my good friend. Just great. (promise to send you an email soon reg. latest news - just been so darned busy) 

Cheers


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