# I'm done with "hybrid" music...



## José Herring (Jan 8, 2021)

...It may be the end of whatever little career I have in commercial music, but I'm done with what people call hybrid music. Over the last few days I came to a realization. Hybrid music is an inability to decide on a direction, to commit to some type of music, it's the result of people in the commercial arts industries inability to make up their mind and take an artistic stand. It's a no risk way of creation. It's boring me. 

Believe me this decision may not be as heroic as it seems. Truth is, I'm not good at this hybrid stuff any way. I'm fairly good a real music in many styles but the combining of styles, I suck at it. Mostly because it makes me feel wishy washy and I spend most of the time just trying to make styles and instruments go together that were never intended to go together. 

For me personally hybrid is a music that is settling for not the greatest of any genre of music. It's the Venn Diagram of music. It's, okay lets find those 3 notes, 2 chords of 2 or 3 note harmony that works in any genre of music. It's the equation of people getting together and coming up with this type of creative solution, " well, we want orchestra but we don't want it to be too.....orchestral. We want electronic but we don't want it to sound electronicy. We want it to be kind of black but not too black..we want rock but rock is too white so don't make it toooo rock...ect, ect. ect..." In the end, you get a mash of stuff limited in expression and none of it sounds that great but maybe it sells because it turns out to have enough commonality among the peoples of planet earth to sell to a million or 2 of the population. 

While I'm interested in selling a few million albums at some point, I'm not interested in creating much music any more that is the sum of all artistic fears of maybe offending somebody because it's too this or too classical or too rock or too pop or too (insert your favorite "too" that makes music music). 

These are just my thoughts. I'm sure somebody will take offense but whatever, getting too old to care about that.

What are your thoughts on it?


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## Technostica (Jan 8, 2021)

Do your own thing.
I mainly play gongs, bowls, hand drums, shakers and other percussion.
Not exactly mainstream but that’s what calls me.


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## NoamL (Jan 8, 2021)

The best hybrid composer of all time was probably Igor Stravinsky. 

"Hybrid" to me is about looking for new colors to put in music. Back when everything was acoustic, that meant cool and strange woodwind sounds (alto flute, Eb clarinet) and odd, unique percussion instruments (washboard). Woodwinds are/were the greatest reserve of timbral color in the orchestra and that was their justification for having a dozen wind players each with multiple instruments to play during the great high point of Stravinsky's and Ravel's orchestra.

Broadly the job titles of the orchestral sections would be something like:

Winds: color
Strings: sustain
Brass: dynamism
Percussion: accents

Synths can add completely unique colors to music, and they exceed the variety of all the strangest woodwinds and wind doublings. In my view that's why woodwinds have slowly declined. Their job was outsourced. Hybrid music needs to contain "tasty" sounds, used well - "bad hybrid music" is possible, just as "bad orchestration" is possible. It is no more wrong to add synths to the orchestra than to add the bass flute


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## Crowe (Jan 8, 2021)

'Hybrid music' is such an odd term. I understand it, but it warps the perception of whatever is wedged under this weird name by association. Industrial Rock/Metal is hybrid music, and when you say Trent Reznor is just unable to decide on a direction I believe you've fundamentally misunderstood what it means to make music.

Of course, you didn't. We all know exactly what you mean when you speak of 'Hybrid Orchestral Music', which is whatever pretty narrow range of cliches has been distilled into what is popular Trailer Music(tm). It's a formula that's been bled dry and pimped out until nothing remained so in that regard, it's quite understandable to be burnt out on it.

However, Two Steps from Hell makes 'Hybrid Orchestral Music' too. Just sayin'.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 8, 2021)

There’s two types of music-music you like and music you don’t, and though I’m sure my friend Piet vehemently disagrees, to me it’s all subjective.


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## Trash Panda (Jan 8, 2021)

I’d argue it takes more creativity to combine seemingly opposing musical styles and making them fit together in a manner that works. Sounds like you’re not into the style and don’t feel good at it.

It doesn’t mean the genre sucks and is for losers who aren’t creative; it just means it’s not your thing. And that’s fine. No need to take a dump on it.

Look at Trans-Siberian Orchestra. They combined classical music with rock, metal, and Christmas carols. And it’s awesome.


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## rnieto (Jan 8, 2021)

Everything is hybrid music. There are no "pure" styles. Every piece of music has informed and inspired another.

Likewise, the orchestra has changed and mutated over the centuries. Instruments like tubular bells may be considered hybrid instrumentation by some.


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 8, 2021)

We often tend to get mislead by focusing on styles before we focus on musical ideas.

If you think of "hybrid", then quickly an imagination arises that tries to tell you how a typical hybrid piece of music might sound.
Then thoughts like as you said_ "we want orchestra but we don't want it to be too.....orchestral. We want electronic but we don't want it to sound electronicy. etc..." _are quick to arise and do indeed present some truth that can be found in the 'genre'.

As a composer though, it behooves us well to stop thinking about genres and styles. We need to delve into the musical ideas themselves, feel free and probe into the unknown. Is that musical idea I am working on sounding best with only traditional instruments? Would it gain something if a synth gets thrown in? What does bring MY vision forward in the best way?

And if the electronic side does not naturally find its way into your music there is no reason to feel bad. You can push the envelope still with acoustic instruments alone, I am convinced of that.

The answer lies in excercising your freedom, a freedom that does not feel the need to say no, but to say "yes"... and perhaps "yes and" - _if_ you feel like it.


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## tebling (Jan 8, 2021)

tl;dr - "hybrid" isn't a style.

There's no style called "electronic music". There's also no style called "orchestral music". While those words may conjure up styles based on your particular musical life experience, at the end of the day they are instrument choices, and "hybrid" is just shorthand for a composite of the two.

The expressive range of the orchestra has endured through centuries, while electronic instruments offer near unlimited tonal possibilities. Maybe I've led a sheltered life or something, but I have a hard time imagining a more expressive set of instruments. I also can't imagine feeling that the combination of the two has to be "a mash of stuff limited in expression" unless you've intentionally chosen to be limited by your perception of what it _should_ sound like.


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## cuttime (Jan 8, 2021)

I used to call it "eclectic". Still do. My main muse. I hope you find yours.


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## José Herring (Jan 8, 2021)

I read all that you've written. I think I should clarify further. 

To me "hybrid" means there isn't a style. It's the inevitable combination of so many styles that no one style stands out above the rest. It's like all shades of grey. The most common color for "modern" home decor because it goes with everything. So hybrid scoring goes with any movie, any scene, any type of show. 

It has nothing to do with introducing new colors. That to me is just modern orchestration. In the movie world it's the equivalent of the film being, sci-fi, action, fantasy, comedy, drama, suspense, thriller. In the end you just don't have anything but a market tested product to appeal to as many people as possible without really taking a stand. It's like anti-genre. So the plot has to follow a very specific narrow band of limitations so that all that hybrid story telling can work. 

I remember seeing Interstellar in the movie theaters and being blown away that somebody had the guts to actually make a fairly complex little Sci-Fi movie that had a lot of heart in it. Dune is another example. Stars Wars is a Fantasy film set in space. Indiana Jones is an adventure film, ect, ect. 

I find that hybrid scoring came about because it just needed to satisfy the ever increasing demand for music to cover every genre of film in one score. It later bled into trailers for the same reason. 

Reznor is a great example. He and Charlie and NIN are a Rock band that uses new tools to stretch the limits of what can be done with the genre. They aren't necessarily crossing over to blend their style with that of Lil'wayne. Yet, we do that as Hybrid composers all the time. Somebody gives us an action film that would do great with guitars, bass and drums and yet we throw in spiccato strings because well, it's a film and films need strings. Do they really? Not really. Or you're given a nice little tender moment that would work well with a string piano trio and you're trying to work in the latest synth sound so that it doesn't sound too "classical" and appeals to the tweener crowd.


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## gyprock (Jan 9, 2021)

Henry Mancini was hybrid. Any one that used an electric guitar and bongos in an orchestral setting is hybrid.


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## Crowe (Jan 9, 2021)

Whelp, that's me out. I fully agree with not putting clichés into a track just because 'them's the rules'. But there's nothing wrong with inserting spicatto strings because you feel that's awesome, or crossing over industrial and hip-hop out of an artistic motivation.

You're talking about what my generation used to call 'selling out'. Maybe people still do. Who knows. I'm a hermit these days.


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## GNP (Jan 9, 2021)

Yep. Imagine a timeline. Of whatever. "Hybrid", "Pure", whatever fuck stuff.

Then watch it go both backwards and forwards both ways.

Some say "pure", but they're not. There's always purer.

Some say "hybrid", but they're not. There's always wilder.

I guess the point is to just make the music work for whatever it is supposed to work for, period......


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## el-bo (Jan 9, 2021)

José Herring said:


> In the movie world it's the equivalent of the film being, sci-fi, action, fantasy, comedy, drama, suspense, thriller.


Sounds like Star Wars, except you're missing Romance.


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## mybadmemory (Jan 9, 2021)

I think I understand what you’re getting at though I wouldn’t necessarily call it hybrid.

I think in all major creative mediums, music, movies, games, whatever, as the years of our modern era pass by, projects and budgets keep getting bigger, and therefore tries to appeal to everyone and offend no one. It’s just too big of a financial risk. All major projects turn into this uninspiring blend of a little but not to much of everything. And as everything designed by committee it rarely ever reaches our hearts in a way that feels influential.

I do think we already have a counterculture to this going though. With smaller independent creators doing their best to stay away from this bland soup and offer very personal and specific pieces of art that actually dares to say no a large extent of the crowd in order to actually reach into the souls of others. Try to please everyone and you will please no one, right?


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## Saxer (Jan 9, 2021)

For my taste (and I had a rather old fashioned taste already in my youth) hybrid music went the wrong way. I loved synthesizers the way George Duke, Chick Corea and Jan Hammer used to play. And there are recordings of American jazz orchestras who used Synths as solo instruments in full orchestral arrangements.
At the same time there happened the Kraftwerk and Berlin School way of using synths: repetitive patterns, technical, simple arrangements. While I loved the sounds it never touched my heart. Synths could be used as solo or section instruments but all they do is making drones, sound walls, textures, and ostinato patterns. And all the orchestral or other acoustic stuff has to adapt to that style and is either doing synth jobs too (spicc ostinato, drones, textures) or add some flavor to a harmonic inflexible synth playback. The fact that the synth parts are never recorded together with the orchestra shows the problem. Hybrid never really grew together.


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## mybadmemory (Jan 9, 2021)

Saxer said:


> For my taste (and I had a rather old fashioned taste already in my youth) hybrid music went the wrong way. I loved synthesizers the way George Duke, Chick Corea and Jan Hammer used to play. And there are recordings of American jazz orchestras who used Synths as solo instruments in full orchestral arrangements.
> At the same time there happened the Kraftwerk and Berlin School way of using synths: repetitive patterns, technical, simple arrangements. While I loved the sounds it never touched my heart. Synths could be used as solo or section instruments but all they do is making drones, sound walls, textures, and ostinato patterns. And all the orchestral or other acoustic stuff has to adapt to that style and is either doing synth jobs too (spicc ostinato, drones, textures) or add some flavor to a harmonic inflexible synth playback. The fact that the synth parts are never recorded together with the orchestra shows the problem. Hybrid never really grew together.


I'm totally with you! The fact that the orchestra adapts to a certain style of electronic music (that is less melodic, harmonic, and theme-based) is what makes it boring for me. If it would have been the other way around, synth sounds used within a theme based, melodic and harmonic context, I would have liked it so much more. But yeah, I'm old school too! :D


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## muk (Jan 9, 2021)

NYC Composer said:


> and though I’m sure my friend Piet vehemently disagrees, to me it’s all subjective.


It's absolutely not. Beethoven is objectively a better composer than me. It's possible to prove this, and not even very difficult to do so. It's also possible to like music that you know is not very good. And conversely not particularly like music that you know is great. I have that with Wagner, for example. I know through analysis that his music is genius. Yet, I don't particularly enjoy sitting through the five hours of his 'Meistersinger' in one go.

The defining element of 'Hybrid music' to me is not so much the blending of synths with orchestra. Rather, it's taking the structure and harmony of pop music, and realising that with orchestral and electronic sounds. For me it's overexposure to the four-chord-harmony building to a bombastic climax that is making much of the so-called 'hybrid music' boring.


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## JEPA (Jan 9, 2021)

I like very much hybrid experiments! But I am with @Saxer also. I wish hybrid orchestral style would have evolve more. At the other side when you observe ethno-music blend with electronic, there is great development there: lots of very good results in direction "new age/electronic" music, hip-hop, indie alternative.


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## Al Maurice (Jan 9, 2021)

Hybrid is an interesting term. From it's simplest meanings, it could be thought of bring two or more seemingly different idioms or things together and melding them into a new form that didn't exist before.

Yet where we be without it, Jazz would never have come into being.

A composer like Bizet for his opera, Carmen with his Habanera and Toreador fused orchestral music into these rhythmic forms, and that worked well. 

Tschaikosky often used several different folk melodies in his orchestrations too.

The issue comes when hybrid becomes cliche and is overused, without any thought how to make a cohesive piece that conveys emotion, tension and helps to yield an interesting storyline within some orchestral narrative.


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## youngpokie (Jan 9, 2021)

José Herring said:


> ....Somebody gives us an action film that would do great with guitars, bass and drums and yet we throw in spiccato strings because well, it's a film and films need strings. Do they really? Not really. Or you're given a nice little tender moment that would work well with a string piano trio and you're trying to work in the latest synth sound so that it doesn't sound too "classical" and appeals to the tweener crowd.


That’s how I understand the point you’re making - the reality of hybrid music is a mash of styles, not because of some bold artistic vision but because of the lack of it, simply ticking off the checkboxes of stereotypes that have been included


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## AudioLoco (Jan 9, 2021)

That is really interesting.
I was having similar thoughts lately, to some degree, resonating with what you wrote.

As for the definition of "hybrid" I think some people are overthinking it. 
It is an accepted, universal term for "Orchestral plus Electronica" in film/show music, no need for philosophical branching I think... 

I think the main issue is this: electronica in general used to be such an innovative soundscape for infinite exploration. Every sound mangled personally and maniacly to make the public gasp with terror and excitement as they listen to these new and electrifying sounds they never heard before: From the theremin sounding exactly like aliens on-wards I guess...

Now there has been a lot uniformity and conformity, not research and exploration, with electronic elements. They don't excite me either at the moment.
When a genre becomes mainstream it tends to be similar-ish from track to track, as people just copy each other knowingly or not.
"Hybrid" is very, very handy for simple low volume underscoring and when time has a machete ready for you, but I often find it lazy and just "easy" with the tools we got. 

Probably if you are really passionate about the sound design, extreme synth patches programming, weird hardware boxes, or deep software programming etc it can still be "emotion" driven.

Orchestral, or just "organic" music will forever speak to the minds of viewers. 
It is a fact of life.
The most reverd OST from the genral public are all orchestra based. From the Star Wars to the latest Super Hero movie scored by the mighty Silvestri, the latest Joker is all cello based.
I think hybrid music often, not always tends to be a bit flat, non descriptive and not something that you remember at the end of the movie/show.
There are some amazing, grandiose, electronic/hybrid scores obviously (Lola Runs, anything by Hans Z)

I come from Rock n Roll, had many years doing electronica and experimenting with sounds, synths and funny boxes, and came around to "cinematic", at the moment. 
So I have kind of been there, it just doesn't excite ME anymore. Although I am sure many people will come along with amazing ideas still with the genre and blow my mind off.

I remember as a little kid getting out of the cinema after watching Superman (With Christopher Reeve, the only real superman! I'm old) and singing the theme loudly and jumping around.


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## Peter Satera (Jan 9, 2021)

It's sounds like hybrid is being mistaken for trailer music, which is simplistic in melody, themes, etc. For obvious reasons. I get the over-exposure to it or as José says 'they're not good at it'. That can put you off, because it sounds easy, but really, it's not. The production has to be top notch. If you're better or enjoy in the box, there's nothing wrong with that.

The orchestra is designed to fulfill the frequency range, and when you start to mess with this it becomes difficult. To me though, we're playing with samples, they've been cleaned up, mixed, over-hyped and programmed to hell. There's nothing pure or acoustic about it. It's emulation, until it's not.

Therefore, while I understand the sentiment of being non-intrusive to the type of instruments used, I feel restriction is exactly that. If hybrid didn't go the way you wanted it to go, then take it there. If everyone is going left, go right. Do what you want to do.

But, I think any steering of assumptions that it's because they're lesser musicians is nonsense. It's simply the opportunity to use and blend different instruments and sounds, while using our restrictions like other composers before us. 

To be elitist is a strange concept, as all we're doing is no more than what Brad Fiedel did in Terminator 2, with better sampling tech.


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## ism (Jan 9, 2021)

Trash Panda said:


> I’d argue it takes more creativity to combine seemingly opposing musical styles and making them fit together in a manner that works. Sounds like you’re not into the style and don’t feel good at it.
> 
> It doesn’t mean the genre sucks and is for losers who aren’t creative; it just means it’s not your thing. And that’s fine. No need to take a dump on it.
> 
> Look at Trans-Siberian Orchestra. They combined classical music with rock, metal, and Christmas carols. And it’s awesome.


I agree with you, of course.

But I also think that there’s a kind of ‘innovation by permutation’ where hybrid experiments are become kind of lazy mash ups ... at least until someone figures out how to truly organically integrate the elements. I’d also argue that there’s a distinct genre of ‘mash-up’ music, where the point is the jarring juxtaposition, rather than an exploring a genuinely integrative hybridity.

Also, a lot of orchestral hybrid music is ... well, ambient mush, is how I’d describe it. Beautiful in its own right. But it brings orchestral music down to the level of ambient rather that genuine transcending the boundaries of the contributing genres.

So I do agree that there’s genuine criticisms of at least some music called ‘hybrid’ that doesn’t necessarily really do, musically, what it claims to be doing. Like mediocre avante guarde art. A great artist can make a powerful innovation in artistic expression. But mediocre John Cage’s imitators, for instance, can legitimately be accused of just not having the talent to write actually good music. Seriously, how many poor imitations of 4’22 do we really need?

Witness my early work with Tundra .. these pieces were pretty, but ultimately little more than ambient mush. I guess I could call these pieces ambient, or hybrid, and admire them for the genuine prettyness of the textures and pass them off as ‘hybrid ambient-orchestra’. But I know perfectly well that there were simply poor compositions that entirely fail as orchestral, even if they work passably as ambient/hybrid, music.


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## Geoff Grace (Jan 9, 2021)

I believe that every genre has a reason to exist. No style speaks to everyone, but every style speaks to someone.

I also think great music and mediocre music can be made in any classification—including hybrid, or crossover, or whatever the name du jour happens to be. The Beatles and Prince were great genre benders, for example (speaking as one older guy to another).

If you approach any style looking at its limitations rather than its potential, how will you be inspired to write something great?

That said, if a genre doesn't grab you, then it doesn't make much sense to spend your time writing in it. I recommend that you go with whatever resonates with you.

Best,

Geoff


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## SirKen (Jan 9, 2021)

Is this the age old question of vertical vs horizontal development? If so, yes, vertical development alone on its own bores me too.


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## José Herring (Jan 9, 2021)

muk said:


> It's absolutely not. Beethoven is objectively a better composer than me. It's possible to prove this, and not even very difficult to do so. It's also possible to like music that you know is not very good. And conversely not particularly like music that you know is great. I have that with Wagner, for example. I know through analysis that his music is genius. Yet, I don't particularly enjoy sitting through the five hours of his 'Meistersinger' in one go.
> 
> The defining element of 'Hybrid music' to me is not so much the blending of synths with orchestra. Rather, it's taking the structure and harmony of pop music, and realising that with orchestral and electronic sounds. For me it's overexposure to the four-chord-harmony building to a bombastic climax that is making much of the so-called 'hybrid music' boring.


Yes! Better stated than what I said. It's this formula. It's a formula that everybody knows. It's a formula that even AI's are duplicating. It's a formula that has taken this art form and thrown it into the toilet that now we can't even tell if a machine wrote the piece or a human being.

It's this limiting the language of music so that it fits in any movie, any trailer, any tv show. It's killing music.

I was listening to a James Newton Howard cue and went to figure it out and I am like, whoa, there's a chord with an added 6th. Haven't heard that since the 90's. Listening to John Williams, Goldsmith , NIN etal, lots of imagination. Taking risk, taking a viewpoint and putting it out there.


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## tebling (Jan 9, 2021)

José Herring said:


> now we can't even tell if a machine wrote the piece or a human being.


Do you have an example of this?


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## Arbee (Jan 9, 2021)

Fascinating thread, and even just the various _interpretations_ here of "hybrid" are an interesting topic. I've been wrestling with this for decades. A few random thoughts...

From the moment electricity met music, the music world changed forever. Acoustic + electric, synthesis, amplification to make quiet things as loud as loud things. While some genres still live very comfortably on one side or the other, we still seem to struggle with an integrated, credible art form created from the massive sonic possibilities now at our disposal. But, historically, it's still early days since the mic, electric guitar and synth arrived. And don't forget about hybrid percussion too. 

It seems to me that hybrid music requires a simpler structure (rhythmic, melodic and harmonic), to allow room for the extra sonic landscape dimension to breath. For some, that's a confronting concept as it looks like we're "dumbing down" music and regressing centuries of delicious evolving complexity. Some "legit" compositions that attempt to include synths still sound very awkward to my ears, while some progressive contemporary artists (and kudos to HZ here) are starting to make sense of it.

Thanks to Google, YouTube and co, we now have instant access to every genre of music ever created. Rather like food and cuisine, it should be no surprise that we fall for the trap of throwing everything in the bucket at once in order to please everyone and discover the "one size fits all". It doesn't work for restaurants, who wants "Chinese/French/Mexican/Japanese" for dinner? But if you're very selective you can create magical moments with just one element of "borrowed genre" used judiciously.

What future is there for orchestral musicians then, apart from forever sustaining the musical historical archives, if we can't create some future direction that elegantly incorporates the old and new? Having said that, I appreciate that music may follow architecture, i.e. that the days of great buildings are gone perhaps forever and we now live a life of "commodity" in all things. So perhaps then we need to keep things separate for their own good, so we don't homogenise what was once great into a bland soup.

Sunday morning rambling over.....


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## Greg (Jan 9, 2021)

Do we need these threads every 6 months? 

Hybrid music impresses and inspires A LOT of people. Just because you don't feel the same way doesn't invalidate an entire genre. 

Get over it and do what you like. You sound like an absolute child that throws his board game across the room because he sucks at it. Embarrassing.


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## ism (Jan 9, 2021)

Greg said:


> Do we need these threads every 6 months?
> 
> Hybrid music impresses and inspires A LOT of people. Just because you don't feel the same way doesn't invalidate an entire genre.
> 
> Get over it and do what you like. You sound like an absolute child that throws his board game across the room because he sucks at it. Embarrassing.


And yet ... as I feel this thread shows, it's also possible to have grown up conversations about the weaknesses, limitations, uninterrogated assumptions, laziness of tropes , unchallenged conventions and dead metaphors that can ossify in any given genre as well. Instead of just resorting uncritically to the "to each his own" truism.


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## Peter Satera (Jan 9, 2021)

Is it critical thinking though to start a thread, say you have an inability to create hybrid music then say everyone who does it, sounds the same, can be used in any context, and then to top it off, those people are "killing music".

...excuse me as I listen to Ludwig.


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## ism (Jan 9, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Is it critical thinking though to start a thread, say you have an inability to create hybrid music then say everyone who does it, sounds the same, can be used in any context, and then to top it off, those people are "killing music".
> 
> ...excuse me as I listen to Ludwig.


It's as valid and critical as feeling that classical music is sterile and the repetoire of 19th century music something of a "death cult" - which I think Alex Ross talks about in more or less these terms in "The Rest is Noise". 

So yes, if read the right way (and I've read enough of Jose's posts to have a sense of how he subjectively expresses his thoughts) it entirely valid, critical, expressed in an entirely subjective mode of expression that sparked interesting conversation, including around what "hybrid" even means.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 9, 2021)

muk said:


> It's absolutely not. Beethoven is objectively a better composer than me. It's possible to prove this, and not even very difficult to do so. It's also possible to like music that you know is not very good. And conversely not particularly like music that you know is great. I have that with Wagner, for example. I know through analysis that his music is genius. Yet, I don't particularly enjoy sitting through the five hours of his 'Meistersinger' in one go.
> 
> The defining element of 'Hybrid music' to me is not so much the blending of synths with orchestra. Rather, it's taking the structure and harmony of pop music, and realising that with orchestral and electronic sounds. For me it's overexposure to the four-chord-harmony building to a bombastic climax that is making much of the so-called 'hybrid music' boring.


Linos-I didn’t say “good” or “not good”- I said “like” and “don’t like.” Again, to me, that’s totally subjective.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 9, 2021)

I have this ‘feeling’ that musical breakthroughs come from hybrid experiments, but I haven’t formalized it. As a composer borrowing from this century and the last, I’m a living, breathing hybrid. Great thread topic, me thinks.


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## ism (Jan 9, 2021)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> I have this ‘feeling’ that musical breakthroughs come from hybrid experiments, but I haven’t formalized it. As a composer borrowing from this century and the last, I’m a living, breathing hybrid. Great thread topic, me thinks.



Absolutely right. 

But breakthroughs also come from recognizing excesses of early experiments, and focusing and distilling a musicality. 

Sometimes its restriction that gives birth to expressiveness. Reaction even.


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## patrick76 (Jan 9, 2021)

muk said:


> It's absolutely not. Beethoven is objectively a better composer than me. It's possible to prove this, and not even very difficult to do so. It's also possible to like music that you know is not very good. And conversely not particularly like music that you know is great. I have that with Wagner, for example. I know through analysis that his music is genius. Yet, I don't particularly enjoy sitting through the five hours of his 'Meistersinger' in one go.
> 
> The defining element of 'Hybrid music' to me is not so much the blending of synths with orchestra. Rather, it's taking the structure and harmony of pop music, and realising that with orchestral and electronic sounds. For me it's overexposure to the four-chord-harmony building to a bombastic climax that is making much of the so-called 'hybrid music' boring.


I think I understand what you are saying and believe it to be that a composer such as Beethoven has a very high level of skill, knowledge, and ability and we could all agree Beethoven is a superior craftsman. I don't like calling music that I like that is not constructed in such a manner as "not very good" however. It obviously depends on what one considers to constitute good music. 

While I think I partially agree with you, I feel that the end result of the music is more important than the process itself. We've all heard academic compositions that could be considered very skillful, but that completely fail to resonate with or move us. The emotional response is paramount in my view. To me, someone who can come up with an idea, no matter how simplistic or naive, that causes a reaction is a skillful composer in the area that matters most.

I'm blathering on and there is little point in a taste vs skill type of debate, so I'll give it a rest. I just can't quite come to terms with the idea of absolute objectivity in art. To a degree, yes, but only a degree.

PS, back on topic, sort of.... Is hybrid music (the cliche type stuff I mean) still a thing?


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## Fenicks (Jan 9, 2021)

I am interested to hear examples of 'good' and 'bad' hybrid music according to commentators in this thread. As someone operating outside the film and orchestral music worlds, and who enjoys blending synths with orchestral instruments and using pop song structures, this conversation offers a lot to think about.


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## telecode101 (Jan 9, 2021)

..


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## José Herring (Jan 9, 2021)

Greg said:


> Do we need these threads every 6 months?
> 
> Hybrid music impresses and inspires A LOT of people. Just because you don't feel the same way doesn't invalidate an entire genre.
> 
> Get over it and do what you like. You sound like an absolute child that throws his board game across the room because he sucks at it. Embarrassing.


The only thing that i'm embarrassed about is that I've written so many hybrid tracks in the last 20 years that I honestly am having trouble finding what my next creative endeavor will be. All I know now is I'm done writing for big drums, strings, synth and brass pads. But, honestly if that what floats a composer's boat then I mean with all sincerity that they should go for it. My heart was just never into it.


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## NoamL (Jan 9, 2021)

Is it really copycats that wear out a sound? or just the amount of music, no matter who writes it?

I really enjoyed dubstep as a musical... fad or whatever you want to call it. But even if there was only one famous composer who wrote it, I'd be done with listening to it by now. There's only so many "takes" you can have on an epic drop. Same thing with braams. It was cool to hear people explore that world in different ways - I don't care that they copycatted Inception, they came up with new takes - but now it's expired.

@Fenicks you asked what's some great hybrid music recently... listen to Dark Phoenix. Some really stunning stuff there. It sounds like an evolution of what HZ has worked on previously ("Mermaids" from Pirates 4, the whole sound-world of Man of Steel) but also very fresh.


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## muk (Jan 10, 2021)

NYC Composer said:


> Linos-I didn’t say “good” or “not good”- I said “like” and “don’t like.” Again, to me, that’s totally subjective.


Agreed Larry. Like and don't like, that is subjective.


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## TomislavEP (Jan 10, 2021)

The term "hybrid" can be seen from far too many angles. If it assumes blending of sounds, techniques, and occasionally styles, I'm also "guilty as charged". Personally, I mostly mix my primary instruments (pianos, synths, and guitars) with orchestral elements and sound design, etc. Since I'm not classically trained, this is both my comfort zone but in a way also a "necessary evil".

One thing is for sure - we're living in a strange "hybrid" times, full of various disparities. While certain traditions and institutions are still being hailed as the unsurpassable standard, the relentless progress of music technology threatens to devour everyone who deviates from taking this path instead (if this is even an option nowadays). Speaking of technology, I often find it funny how all these incredible possibilities that we have today sometimes fall in the water due to various retro trends. As if the market yells at you to buy the most advanced, modern, and expensive tools available in one moment, while in another says "you're the man" if you have the courage to use 8-bit sounds, cassette tapes, and kitchen utensils instead.

Then there is also the essence of music. Once upon a time, having a nice singable melody and pleasing harmony was all that really matters. Today, it's all about being experimental as much as possible, in order to be "different" from the others, even if this requires some kind of excess; be it visual, musical, or simply sound-related. From my own perspective, I often wonder would my path be at least a bit easier had I been born in some bygone era, even though we now have the potential means to do what was then merely unthinkable. But I often feel that some things were actually much simpler in the past.


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## mybadmemory (Jan 10, 2021)

Isn't genre purity something we see less and less of in all areas of creativity? Apart from in music for film/tv/and games, I feel the same is true in popular music too. As well as in the films, tv-shows, and games themselves.

The further back we go the more defined genres and perspectives we had, whereas today we see many of those merging and becoming a more intertwined experience tailored to a broader mass, with less variation between them?

Or possibly the entire history of creativity is just an ever ongoing merge of different things, where everything new feels more defined and singular for a while, until it inescapably starts to bland and merge with other things...


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## Al Maurice (Jan 10, 2021)

mybadmemory said:


> Or possibly the entire history of creativity is just an ever ongoing merge of different things, where everything new feels more defined and singular for a while, until it inescapably starts to bland and merge with other things...


That's fine to a degree.

Whilst composers find inspiration in each other's work, and use that as a springboard for new and inventive masterpieces. But when certain elements are just borrowed, and reused in a multitude of ways totally out of the original context. Then over time the original, becomes debased and loses its shine. At which point that new genre becomes outmoded and we start to ask where do we go from here?


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## lux (Jan 10, 2021)

as stated by other members before, I too think the equivalence of hybrid and cliched is somehow uncorrect.

I would focus more on "Mimicking" word rather than on "Hybrid". To me real question is: should today a composer feel forced to mimick styles and sounds she/he is lightyears away from? Usually my ears are definitely more hurt by listening classical driven pianists feeling forced to create a metal (virtual) guitar track or an indie guitar player doing the worst strings arrangement ever just cause he "needs" to.

A style requires to be lived, smelled for years before you get into the right mood. Otherwise it's just mimicking and it's, sincerely, horrible as hell. The advent of virtual instruments basically removed the money barrier, as before that you had to spend thousands just to have real people play your worst strings arrangement ever. Reason why you usually had to hire an orchestral arranger.

The reasons why certain styles became "a must" for many composer are so many and often complicated, spanning from musical reason to strictly industry related topics. Something too wide to approach imo.

One thing about cliched hybrid orchestral music could be said tho. My impression is that it's been a "winner mark" since a few directors made their fortune with movies having those styles on top. Sometimes is just easy as that. I think still today many directors and producers feel the attractivity of the winner mark, wrongly assuming that's strictly related to a formula. Formulas and cliches are definitely a danger in a really crowded world like ours.


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## jononotbono (Jan 10, 2021)

I love combining different musical elements, sounds, instruments, FX and everything else too long winded to list with each other. Every once in a while something really works and I would never have thought about being able to create music like we can in today’s world. The only limit is one’s creativity. It’s so much fun!


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## Consona (Jan 10, 2021)

Fenicks said:


> I am interested to hear examples of 'good' and 'bad' hybrid music according to commentators in this thread. As someone operating outside the film and orchestral music worlds, and who enjoys blending synths with orchestral instruments and using pop song structures, this conversation offers a lot to think about.


"Good" and "bad" in what way?

When I listen to hybrid music (orchestral instruments + synths) I always spot two aspects that jump at me. Compositional mastery X production level.

Nothing today has as awesome masterful compositions as what Jerry Goldsmith did in Total Recall, Gremlins or Rambo II, which are all hybrid scores.

On the other hand, nothing *sounds* as cool and bombastic as Alan Meyerson or Tom Holkenborg (Junkie XL) mixes.
When you go listen to Man of Steel, Batman v Superman or Aquaman, those mixes are insanely well done. Or Mad Max Fury Road, compositions are nowhere near the level of Jerry Goldsmith, but the sheer level of bombastic and ""hell f*ck yeah" is through the roof.

Both approaches require a lot of skill, but in quite different areas. And all of them will take years to master.

I'm in quite a funny position. I want to be able to compose like Jerry Goldsmith and mix like Alan Meyerson.  See ya in 30 years...

But what I've definitely noticed listening to those new soundtracks is, having a good motif and great sound mixing can carry you through even though the composition is very trivial.
And when you try make some piece like that it can really fast slip into sound-design vs composing. When you are more concerned out filling up gaps in the sound with another noise rather than having the old-school guy in front of a piano mindset.

But both ways can be funny.
I've seen some guys on youtube, loading their Action Strikes into Kontakt, making a Fury Road tribute, where just using big drums makes them feel they sound like Junkie XL. No. You fricking don't sound like that Fury Road drum barrage with your one instance of Kontakt and one stock compressor plugin.
And no, you fricking don't flipping sound like John Williams when you use a woodwinds run and two weird polychords one after the other.
But what's rather sad is, the general audience can't spot the difference. The first sounds like JXL to them, and the second like John Williams...

So, the because of why we bother is ourselves. And always will be. It's you who know (or should know) your piece sounds like shit composition- and sound- wise.


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## el-bo (Jan 10, 2021)

José Herring said:


> My heart was just never into it.


Well, there's your problem. Disparaging an entire genre (As it is now, in it's own right) and to some extent those who create or enjoy such music, based on your own lack of interest, joy or love for said music, might perhaps be ill-advised.


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## José Herring (Jan 10, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Well, there's your problem. Disparaging an entire genre (As it is now, in it's own right) and to some extent those who create or enjoy such music, based on your own lack of interest, joy or love for said music, might perhaps be ill-advised.


Very true. But the conversation has lead to some really good discovery for me which is all that I'm really after any way.


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## el-bo (Jan 11, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Very true. But the conversation has lead to some really good discovery for me which is all that I'm really after any way.


Seems to happen pretty often around here (In start contrast to many other places on the net), where a thread that might not have had the best of starts actually gets turned around, to the benefit of all.

All the best


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## Fenicks (Jan 11, 2021)

Consona said:


> "Good" and "bad" in what way?


The reason I asked is because I'm an amateur on this subject and wanted to hear for myself the positive and negative distinctions that other people hear in hybrid music. From the rest of your response it seems that the primary issue is one of sound design taking precedent over composition, which I agree is undesirable.


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## rnieto (Jan 11, 2021)

Fenicks said:


> From the rest of your response it seems that the primary issue is one of sound design taking precedent over composition, which I agree is undesirable.


Why is it undesirable, though?

In my opinion, the role of a piece of music is to generate an intended, specific emotional response in the listener. From Beethoven’s Fifth to John Cage’s experiments”, if a piece of music fulfills its intended purpose, it’s successful. 

I think if a composer wants to achieve this through textures and unorthodox sound design, that’s just as valid as using traditional, “normal” compositional techniques and tropes. 

Just my opinion, of course.


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## youngpokie (Jan 11, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Disparaging an entire genre (As it is now, in it's own right) and to some extent those who create or enjoy such music, based on your own lack of interest, joy or love for said music, might perhaps be ill-advised.


Whenever I hear hybrid music, I cannot get past primitive harmonies and the sound of orchestra being mutilated with synths and FX. But there seem to be a lot of people who are really into it, so I'm probably listening for the wrong things or need to approach it with a different mindset. 

I would genuinely like to know what it is about hybrid music that moves them and what makes it "tick"...


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## el-bo (Jan 11, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Whenever I hear hybrid music, I cannot get past primitive harmonies and the sound of orchestra being mutilated with synths and FX. But there seem to be a lot of people who are really into it, so I'm probably listening for the wrong things or need to approach it with a different mindset.
> 
> I would genuinely like to know what it is about hybrid music that moves them and what makes it "tick"...


I think part of the answer to what makes hybrid music (at least in the cinematic trailer-type form) tick, is actually the tick i.e the rhythm. "Primitive", like primordial, speaks to our more base visceral nature, leaving complex harmony etc. to cater to the cerebral. From the composer's point-of-view, it's perhaps easy to look at it's formulaic-ness as lazy. But the formula works.

I also tend to agree with rnieto in the sense that I think nothing is out of bounds or sacred when it comes to composing. And that sound design can be valid as it's own thing.

Sorry I can't give a more musical analysis of why it works, or what it is you might look out for. Maybe you aren't missing anything, or the bombastic-ness of it all doesn't do it for you.


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## JohnG (Jan 11, 2021)

rnieto said:


> the role of a piece of music is to generate an intended, specific emotional response in the listener.


Defining music by its success at generating an intended emotional response narrows quite a bit the scope of what music is and can be.

Many would argue that music doesn't have any emotional content at all, that, by its nature, it actually can't directly communicate specific emotions other than by quoting tropes (to use your word) that people find familiar and echo expectations and associations the listeners bring to the party.

As I'm sure you'd agree, a lot of music isn't at all "emotional," including plenty of concert music and even music used in films. I think (on the latter) of Michael Nyman, or some of Philip Glass' music.

I liken it to architecture or furniture or some kinds of imagery. If you see a Norman Rockwell illustration, that is intended to evoke a set of emotional responses. If you see Mondrian or look at some kinds of architecture, it's trying to avoid all that.


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## youngpokie (Jan 11, 2021)

el-bo said:


> is actually the tick i.e the rhythm. "Primitive", like primordial, speaks to our more base visceral nature, leaving complex harmony etc. to cater to the cerebral. From the composer's point-of-view, it's perhaps easy to look at it's formulaic-ness as lazy. But the formula works.


Thank you for this. I spent a couple of hours this morning listening to "hybrid orchestral" playlists on YouTube, like this one (39 million views) and quite a few more:



Here's what I hear:

1. Instrumentation is a single pedal point that never stops:
- looped ostinatos in the instruments​- repeated rhythmic patterns of drums​- the sustained bass​- one (simple) chord progression​
2. Texture seems to be somehow related to 80s rock (and part of the pedal point itself) - very dense and thick and "on", with techniques such as the wall of (distorted guitar) sound, like Def Leppard, and fanfares, like "It's the Final Countdown" by Europe.

3. I understand the connection to the blockbuster movie phenomenon - it kind of has to sound like "Wow, this movie is going to be INTENSE", even if it's expected and predictable to most listeners by now, so this desired intensity possibly explains the longevity of the formula.

My mistake is maybe taking the word "orchestral" in its name too literally, as in - the music written for a symphonic orchestra and the paradigm/stereotype that brings with it. But this music is not at all "orchestral" in that sense, the orchestra here seems like smidge of some replaceable exotic flavor or thin layer that the music itself doesn't depend on at all. You can replace orchestral samples with synths and it is not going to lose its heart and essence and will still deliver on its goal.

Nevertheless, I can see now what you might have meant with rhythm and primal!

At a certain point the music gradually started to sound trance-like to me, and strongly hypnotic and all these endless loops over sustained bass and essentially one chord gave it some kind of pulsating quality on "macro level" against the never-changing background that just flows and flows. It's almost like too many chords will break this spell. And then the "hero" melody breaks out, with some fanfare-like vibe to it, and creates this kind of "rush of adrenaline" sensation that makes you want to raise your fists in the air and yell.


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## José Herring (Jan 11, 2021)

It is an interesting conversation and I can tell that a lot of the confusion stems from the fact that the term "hybrid" means different things to different people. For me it never meant the blending of musical styles per se or whether or not sound design plays a greater or lesser roll in a musical composition. For me it is very specifically the blending of so many style of music that one needs to distill the music down to constant repetition and 1 note pads formulas and spend 3 weeks mixing to make it all work.


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## Al Maurice (Jan 11, 2021)

So in essence you don't mean something like this:
http://openmusictheory.com/hybridThemes.html
But more like that instead:








Hybrid Trailer Music


An Introduction To The Art Of Creating Music For Hollywood Trailers




evenant.teachable.com


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## JohnG (Jan 11, 2021)

José Herring said:


> For me it is very specifically the blending of so many style of music that one needs to distill the music down to constant repetition and 1 note pads formulas and spend 3 weeks mixing to make it all work.


I think José's put his finger on exactly what a lot of people mean when using the term "hybrid." Including producers.

It's mind-numbing. How many times do we hear "themes" that are nothing more than a few notes over a four bar chord pattern that you could have heard on any pop song from 1955 on, whose "development" consists of adding more drums, more brass, a choir and an extra octave?

It can sound cool in the right hands, but there aren't so many of those hands.


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## rnieto (Jan 11, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Defining music by its success at generating an intended emotional response narrows quite a bit the scope of what music is and can be.
> 
> Many would argue that music doesn't have any emotional content at all, that, by its nature, it actually can't directly communicate specific emotions other than by quoting tropes (to use your word) that people find familiar and echo expectations and associations the listeners bring to the party.
> 
> ...


I would counterargue by saying that everything generates an emotional response. Watching paint dry can generate boredom. Seeing a wino puke can generate disgust. All music is emotional, but maybe we differ on the meaning of "emotion". And yes, I strongly believe Nyman's and Glass' music is emotional. It may make you fall asleep or roll your eyes, but it does generate an emotional response of some kind.

To me, Mondrian also generates a strong emotional response. The bright primary colours he uses evoke a childlike playfulness, and the almost brutalist use of only right angles makes me think of a Lego kit, which also ties into the nostalgic feeling of recalling childhood memories. For me, at least.

My point is, everyone is trying to say something through music (and art), even if the message is "I don't give a crap about music" or "I want you to just dance and gulp down Ecstasy". If your music generates the anger, indifference, joy, fear, shame, longing, revulsion, inspiration, or just plain rational curiosity that you intended it to generate when you wrote it, it is successful to me.


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 11, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Here's what I hear:
> 
> (...)
> 
> Nevertheless, I can see now what you might have meant with rhythm and primal!



I'd call it musical fast-food. How to get from 0 to 100 within two minutes. Something that used to take half an hour in the context of a symphony. Maximum impact and effect on our emotional response center without delivering much substance.
Of course movie makers are excited.

I am wondering however, if it is possible to have both, substance and the intensified experience.

I did not want to hijack this thread for it but I would like to see what hybrid music you all know that would be able to escape this fast-food syndrome. For this reason I started this thread:
➡️ Classical Meets Hybrid - Throwing the Gauntlet

Besides looking for examples I am also sometimes wondering if there is even a marriage possible between the orchestral and the hybrid that produces a really satisfying and sustaining experiences aside from adding just effects.
I want to believe it is possible, but I also notice that the introduction of hybrid elements tends to shift things either into a more primitive composition, or it becomes more heavy on sound design itself. Either way - I have not heard full blown stand-alone hybrid music that is of the compositional caliber of John Adams for example.
I also notice when I write complex orchestral arrangements while feeling open to add synths etc. I often end up not adding them, because I manage to get everything expressed that I intended to say with acoustic instruments. Is it just habit or is there actually more going on behind the curtains?


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## youngpokie (Jan 11, 2021)

Wunderhorn said:


> Besides looking for examples I am also sometimes wondering if there is even a marriage possible between the orchestral and the hybrid that produces a really satisfying and sustaining experiences aside from adding just effects.



Sorry, but I just can't resist...


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## JohnG (Jan 11, 2021)

rnieto said:


> All music is emotional


That is total rubbish. Not all music is emotional.

Besides, the MUSIC itself is not emotional. The LISTENER brings baggage and associations to it and _invests _the music with emotion.

Two-part inventions don't intrinsically have emotion, certainly not specific emotion. Major keys / minor keys aren't intrinsically happy/sad.

Not all music is programmatic, just most of it that most people hear.

*I Admit...*

Naturally, I concede that people frequently experience emotion when listening to music but that owes less to what's innate in music as such, and more to the vogue in popular and "media" music for sentimentality and bombast, to a willingness to pander cravenly to the audience.

I write almost exclusively media music, so I do have a purpose (a program) in mind when I write. I often have, and can easily, write many paragraphs about what's going on as I write and what specific intention I had in mind when composing each section of a piece.

*Don't Glaze the Doughnut*

Nevertheless, I think it's better that the music avoid piling on, emotionally. If the acting, the lighting, the screenplay all are doing their job, you can have a scene with a dying child (for example) that doesn't require "sad" music at all. I'm sure many would agree that, in such a case, the music could and should perhaps play the sweet memories of the child's life, or actually "play" nothing at all -- produce instead a neutral frame for the scene. Maybe that frame suggests intimacy or a large scale, but it doesn't have to communicate (or intend to communicate) any particular emotion at all.

And often it's better not to.


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## telecode101 (Jan 11, 2021)

..


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## telecode101 (Jan 11, 2021)

..


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## rnieto (Jan 11, 2021)

JohnG said:


> That is total rubbish.


I respect your opinion.


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## Consona (Jan 11, 2021)

rnieto said:


> Why is it undesirable, though?
> 
> In my opinion, the role of a piece of music is to generate an intended, specific emotional response in the listener. From Beethoven’s Fifth to John Cage’s experiments”, if a piece of music fulfills its intended purpose, it’s successful.
> 
> ...


But most, if not all, of the composers who achieve that through textures and unorthodox sound design can't do it via compositions. Or when they do, they are rather basic. And that's the problem. They don't have that choice, they can't put it into complex elaborate pieces.

Show me some Goldsmith or Williams level compositions from these sound design guys. Not even people who specialize in orchestral composing can do that, let alone the sound design bunch.



Fenicks said:


> The reason I asked is because I'm an amateur on this subject and wanted to hear for myself the positive and negative distinctions that other people hear in hybrid music. From the rest of your response it seems that the primary issue is one of sound design taking precedent over composition, which I agree is undesirable.


One thing is sure. If you want to make money, level up your mixing. Even directors these days don't give a damn the music in their films is sometimes borderline atrocious. As long as it sounds cool.

Also, it's infinitely easier than coming up with 30 seconds of something like this:


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## youngpokie (Jan 11, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> You see, this is the problem when people that don't have a music education or background attempt to make music. They emulate music they heard in Marvel/DC comics movies and Xbox/PS games. .


I see totally what you mean but I don't think it's as simple as that.

If you only let educated people make music, you will get a bunch of snobs who are only obsessed with being original at any cost and who despise the plebs who pay for and listen to music. That's more or less what happened with "art music" in the XX century - they simply drove people off.

Today, there are no gatekeepers. Access is open and the bar is really low. The only difference between experimenting with your dad's tape recorder in the 1970s and today - access to software and to YouTube.


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## LudovicVDP (Jan 11, 2021)

Like a lot of people said, there are a lot of different things being discussed and sometimes mixed up here.

Hybrid, trailer, epic,... composition, production,...
And not all those things are comparable.

Yes, that trailer track made of 4 chords + ostinatos + BRAAAAAM is boring in the John Williams point of view. But maybe John Williams didn't know how to LFO and disto 4 oscillators to the bone so that it make they sound like earth is being torn apart.

Is he better than the sound designer? Yes... At composing. Nope... at sound designing.
If you consider those worlds as being separate, there is no real competition. Just two different worlds with two different sets of skills.

Yes, I can't listen to more than 2 trailer tracks in a row without being bored.
But yes, some do the trick for me. Even if I sometimes hate to like them. (I really think trailerized classical music should be punished by death and I hate every bit of it to the bone... But damn that Monlight Sonata from Hidden Citizens just made me go "WOW"!!! Don't ask me why. You can throw me rocks)
And yes again... I've thought a few times "so f***ng easy" and then I've opened Cubase just to realise that I wasn't able to sound that good. I even took the Evenant trailer course... Still can't compose anything convincing. 

I didn't like the TENET soundtrack in the musical sense. 5 min later I couldn't even remember what I had heard. But damn I'd love to be able to produce sound like this soooo much!
Is it better or worse that the first Harry Potter Soundtrack? It's just different.
I think the first mistake would be to compare them.


I also think that what might be a reason to put one above the other is that one has to study composition, music theory, orchestration,... for years, at conservatoires, reading books, etc...
Having a kid buying a computer and some good libraries/synth and be more popular with 4 chords makes it like it's "not fair" or that one is definitely superior to the other. I think that myself a bit to be honest and I'm frustrated every single day about how my musical knowledge is limited and how you all educated people are better than me (and I'm not even good with a synth either for crying out loud) 

But at the end of the day, do what you like and what you're good at... And if you can't John Williams but you're good at something else and you enjoy it... There you go. You win! 


And I would also finish that "little" post by saying that liking something is not exclusive.
I personaly am able to adore some JW, some epic music, a good Vangelis, some math rock, some industrial hardcore or techno, a good 60s song, whatever... just for what they are, individually, without saying one is better than the other.

Ok... that was longer than expected... Sorry


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## telecode101 (Jan 11, 2021)

..


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## José Herring (Jan 11, 2021)

LudovicVDP said:


> ... But maybe John Williams didn't know how to LFO and disto 4 oscillators to the bone so that it make they sound like earth is being torn apart.


I appreciate the tip! 

But really if one knew a little bit about the orchestra he/she wouldn't need synths to do this. The original "Bramm" if you recall was done with bass tbones and there in lies the problem. HZ came up with something unique and original in 2009 and here we are a decade later copycatting that to death until the point were it's so diluted to lose 90% of its effectiveness.

But, I'm guilty. I just turned in a cue for a director and I used my Braamm preset prominently and he loved it. It's become the sound of sci-fi for a lot of people. It's this experience and one other that I will share later that has me second guessing the very nature of my existence.


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## LudovicVDP (Jan 11, 2021)

José Herring said:


> HZ came up with something unique and original in 2009 and here we are a decade later copycatting that to death until the point were it's so diluted to lose 90% of its effectiveness.


100% agreed.

But I would note two things in what you said, nonetheless, for debate's sake.

1 - HZ, however less classicaly trained, was still able to create something unique, like you said. We could than say that he is, in his own right, as good as JW (I know, this is slightly provocative on purpose but you get my point) 

2- Buying Modal Run and thinking you're JW because you finally "know" how to use woodwinds is copycat and dellusional as well. Like pushing the Braam button on Forzo makes you HZ.

Maybe the frustration also comes from the fact that a lot of people just can't make the distinction between the real thing and the copycat. But that's another debate.


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## youngpokie (Jan 11, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> I think if you approach it without any solid background or education and you are just relying on your own intuition and on what you heard and what you have been exposed to -- you sort of wind up emulating what you hear. Whereas true innovation and breaking ground requires truly understanding what it is that you are doing and hearing and where it comes from.


But don't you think there's space for both in life?

To me, it's a kid in the bedroom in the burbs, with a PC and a YouTube channel, who got rocked by a piece of trailer music and now has a new hobby. If that hobby becomes a passion this kids may decides to get musical education - fantastic! But if it doesn't, why would anyone have a problem with him relying on intuition and imitating what (s)he's heard before? 

Yes, getting education is great, there is no doubt about it. But unlike some online trailer music course, musical education (a) takes forever, (b) costs a fortune and (c) deals with music nobody in the burbs listens to. You have to be _really_ motivated to want to jump through these hurdles.


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## AudioLoco (Jan 11, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> I see totally what you mean but I don't think it's as simple as that.
> 
> If you only let educated people make music, you will get a bunch of snobs who are only obsessed with being original at any cost and who despise the plebs who pay for and listen to music. That's more or less what happened with "art music" in the XX century - they simply drove people off.
> 
> Today, there are no gatekeepers. Access is open and the bar is really low. The only difference between experimenting with your dad's tape recorder in the 1970s and today - access to software and to YouTube.



Both are generalizations in my opinion:
People with music education don't do only art music and avant garde, obviously, I don't know...Mozart, Chopin, Bach, JW... those people. 
And also, people with no music education have been often an innovative engine of our age. From the Beatles to Hendrix and countless more...

So every type of musician/composer has their own path, and if the scene is working and the director is happy, job done I guess.

But honestly, a kid in a bedroom today with fruity loops is just not pushed to experimentation, quite the opposite, as he has a lot ready made; loops, presets, now "MIDI chord packs" and AI software writing melodies and chord progression... for crying out loud. (Also infinite tracks, infinite effects and a beautiful blank page to do anything...)
All the adverts telling kids how "without any struggle and study/practice, you can get great pro results!".

If there isn't enough human intervention the music will surely not be talking to any human feeling at the end of the day. (I know people will debate that as well, but that is something I do believe in.)

I'm not saying the everyone does that, but you are pushed by the tools. If you press C1 and basically a whole super processed, almost finished track, starts playing, why would you do anything else?

In the pop world I'm mostly hearing bland, uninspired walls of pointy synths and robotic voices. 
I want to be outraged and enraged, as an old man, by a crazy type of new music I don't understand. I want to fear it as the devil! But I'm just bored. 
I find that some of this kind of aesthetic and ethic is bleeding in the soundtrack world in some cases.

I think it's wrong to say that one genre is superior and another inferior. There are amazing things in both "camps".
The important element for me, is: 
No matter if you are making traditional orchestral/organic or hybrid music, there has to been enough amount of human intervention, human decision making, and human "creation".


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## CT (Jan 11, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> I think it's wrong to say that one genre is superior and another inferior.


That's all this kind of thread accomplishes though (not criticizing José's original post, just the direction the thread took after). It's nothing but a pissing contest with everyone (ok not really everyone but a few) trying desperately to convince themselves and others that their single particular view of things is the right one. Who cares?

Actually I can't really tell what the heck this thread is about. Don't mind me.


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## robgb (Jan 11, 2021)

With all due respect, this is a bit pointless. Music, by its very nature, is hybrid.


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## José Herring (Jan 11, 2021)

robgb said:


> With all due respect, this is a bit pointless. Music, by its very nature, is hybrid.


I appreciate the respect. You needn't be that kind. Wait to you see my next thread. Then you'll lose all respect.

But in all seriousness. It is helping me a lot.


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## Trash Panda (Jan 11, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> Yes and no. I think if you approach it without any solid background or education and you are just relying on your own intuition and on what you heard and what you have been exposed to -- you sort of wind up emulating what you hear. Whereas true innovation and breaking ground requires truly understanding what it is that you are doing and hearing and where it comes from.


To be fair, even with formalized education, your own personal style is still just an amalgamation of what you've heard combined with your own personal preferences. You just happen to hear a lot more of the "masters" or "classics" with formalized education because they're oftentimes the examples the curriculum is built on.

While it's easier to innovate with intention if you understand the underlying principles of western music, you can also stumble into innovating something new and brilliant accidentally.


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## CT (Jan 11, 2021)

Just to make a post in this thread that's actually constructive (?) in addition to my useless one above, this is one of the last things I remember hearing in a movie that felt like a "hybrid" in the most positive sense of the word. Granted, I'm not that familiar with some of the more recent stuff that I think is held up as great examples of hybrid music.

Whatever it is though, it's bloody awesome.


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## dcoscina (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm done with serialist country western music. Oh wait, I was never into that! LOL

sorry, a little levity in your thread Jose... it's been one of those days...


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## Spices (Jan 11, 2021)

Mike T said:


> That's all this kind of thread accomplishes though (not criticizing José's original post, just the direction the thread took after). It's nothing but a pissing contest with everyone (ok not really everyone but a few) trying desperately to convince themselves and others that their single particular view of things is the right one. Who cares?
> 
> Actually I can't really tell what the heck this thread is about. Don't mind me.



I couldn't agree more. There is room for every genre. I may disappoint some fellow composers here, but I don't think its up to us. There is a big audience to do that - and they do. By reacting/feeling/love/hate and go thru the motions. So there is classic classical scores, and there is some hybrid scores? Well take this classical classic "hybrid" score that hit the forum some weeks ago:


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## ism (Jan 11, 2021)

Spices said:


> There is room for every genre.


But the OP is making a personal statement. And there simply isn't room for every genre in a single composer's head. 


Perhaps more controversially, while I respect the amazing versatility of some composers across genres, I have some sense that most of the music I really love comes from a composer who really focuses on, perhaps to the point of inhabiting, maybe not a pure, single genre, but a relatively limited space around a single genre. 


I'm sure there are counterexamples ... but I'm not sure I can think of any off the top of my head.


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## NoamL (Jan 11, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Whenever I hear hybrid music, I cannot get past primitive harmonies and the sound of orchestra being mutilated with synths and FX. But there seem to be a lot of people who are really into it, so I'm probably listening for the wrong things or need to approach it with a different mindset.
> 
> I would genuinely like to know what it is about hybrid music that moves them and what makes it "tick"...



Just my opinion, one of the advantages of hybrid music is that it can build to a different kind of intensity than you would get from a full-blast orchestra tutti.

It's not better or worse, just a different thing.

An orchestral climax feels dark, rich, "golden," and grounded in reality. Like the end of a Prokofiev, Mahler or Bruckner symphony.

The end of Hans's pieces like "TIME" or the cue from Interstellar where Cooper leaves, they have a completely different feeling. Huge hype and a feeling of inevitable momentum, but it also feels more like listening to a record than a concert. It's simultaneously "larger than life" and "unreal." Like the orchestra meets arena rock. Like touchdown on an alien planet. It's another musical world.

The cue from Interstellar is a great example because IMO the Bruckner influence couldn't be more on his sleeve here:



IMO the problem with Hans's imitators is they come away from his music stunned by those insane moments and try to recreate them without understanding that intensity comes from contrast. You listen to these "youtube epic composer" tracks and they come out of the gate with the first 30 seconds of their pieces sounding like the last big section from "TIME." So what's the point?


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 11, 2021)

NoamL said:


> "youtube epic composer" tracks and they come out of the gate with the first 30 seconds of their pieces sounding like the last big section from "TIME."


YEP


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## Greg (Jan 11, 2021)

I would consider myself an "epic youtube composer." Especially someone that was blown away by Two Steps, Hans, Immediate, etc and was inspired to become a composer by that. 

Honestly you guys sound like utter assholes putting these people down because their music doesn't impress you. What the fuck is wrong with you? They usually are just getting their feet wet starting to write music and thats the sound they like. It doesn't mean they will completely abandon traditional music theory or classical composition. Mockery is a first step to becoming a composer, before you put in the time to find your own voice. 

Its become an absolute fucking joke here. Try to think for a moment that behind every peice of music is someone that is TRYING to create something for OTHERS to enjoy. That should be celebrated and encouraged no matter how many fucking chords it has.


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## JohnG (Jan 11, 2021)

Well, sorry you feel that way Greg.

I have written tons of trailer music in my time and I like a lot of it -- mine and others' music -- so I don't mean to come off like a hater. I do find though, ironically enough, that when I'm writing in that style, I feel a bit boxed in now, because so many people have done it so well, like Thomas and Nick, some of the Immediate Music tracks, Aleksander Dimitrijevic and others. The score I wrote for Kingsglaive: Final Fantasy XV has lots of hybrid music and I am very happy with it.

Nevertheless, even though I've actually written a lot of that myself, I feel it's been explored now for a long time by many talented people. No doubt there are still some great things to be done with it but in the main, I'm kind of moving on.


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## youngpokie (Jan 11, 2021)

NoamL said:


> ...Just my opinion, one of the advantages of hybrid music is that it can build to a different kind of intensity than you would get from a full-blast orchestra tutti.





NoamL said:


> ...it also feels more like listening to a record than a concert. It's simultaneously "larger than life" and "unreal." Like the orchestra meets arena rock. Like touchdown on an alien planet. It's another musical world.



These two observations are probably the most eye-opening for someone like me regarding this style and something I can both feel and understand logically (esp. the tutti!). This really makes sense, so thank you

Maybe you have a point of view also on why someone like HZ doesn't see (or perhaps doesn't want???) the emotional power that can come from more sophisticated harmony, more polyphonic texture and so on? This track is of course at another level instrumentation-wise, but it's 2:40 too long and it's still just a pedal point like every other hybrid track, no?

I don't agree re: Prokofiev, but your Bruckner point is great - in fact every "massive orchestra" composer from Berlioz to Wagner to Mahler would have surely appreciated a creative opportunity this could have given them....


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## Peter Satera (Jan 11, 2021)

It's also worth remembering, not everyone coming into trailer music is coming from an orchestral or filmic background. Many come from EDM, which is why percussive trailer cues are instantly aggressive. I also think there's an oversight to remember, it's purpose is to land a TV spot / trailer. If that's where the industry is we shouldn't hold it against composers.

I also think the perspective by some has some extreme oversight at the evolution of trailer music, that it's easy to just to label all as Hans wannabes. It's dismissive. 

Go back to the first immediate music albums out there. It's not about recreating Hans:


It was about creating the genres you hear in movies. Trailer musics boom was like this from the get go in the 90s and since then sound design traits have fed it's way into it (like every genre). If you look hard enough you'll find synths sound design, like a Braam/stingers were in the Alien Trailer, Transformers trailer, etc, before Inception. There was a boom of Braams, yes, but there's so much focus on them, and it's just one of the many adopted sound design traits in trailers. Nobody complains about risers or drops? They were in EDM prior to the trailer boom. Where's the backlash?

If you know your trailer music, then E.S. Posthumous had a lot of influence with Pompeii, the Spider-Man trailer was a huge influence. Again, if I remember right, the first half is Immediate Music.



It's a style of music, which does its job. If it fulfills the criteria required, as production music is designed to, then it makes little sense to compare it to the likes of Williams or Zimmer. Which use hours of music to build up to the pay offs. This is not a luxury trailer composers have.

If you need explained why trailer music doesn't have complex themes, then you don't understand trailer music or the editing process. 

I'd argue trailer music, with the very first IM album WAS "hybrid", it's far from _ever_ being pure. So there's no merit to suggest its best to be extinguished, because it's "killing music". That simply mimics the same absurdity backlash against the likes of Rock and Roll in the 50s.


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## telecode101 (Jan 11, 2021)

..


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## telecode101 (Jan 11, 2021)

..


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 11, 2021)




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## BlackDorito (Jan 11, 2021)

All this talk about 'hybrid' and no-one has mentioned Mason Bates:



Relative to the original post, I should add that MB's usage of electronica to add some new sounds and some dazzle to concert performances is kinda orthogonal to the stated problem of creating a mishmash of styles.


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## José Herring (Jan 11, 2021)

Mike T said:


> Just to make a post in this thread that's actually constructive (?) in addition to my useless one above, this is one of the last things I remember hearing in a movie that felt like a "hybrid" in the most positive sense of the word. Granted, I'm not that familiar with some of the more recent stuff that I think is held up as great examples of hybrid music.
> 
> Whatever it is though, it's bloody awesome.



I love this cue. That's not what I'm taking about when I think "hybrid" but I can see where the confusion lies.


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## José Herring (Jan 11, 2021)

Greg said:


> I would consider myself an "epic youtube composer." Especially someone that was blown away by Two Steps, Hans, Immediate, etc and was inspired to become a composer by that.
> 
> Honestly you guys sound like utter assholes putting these people down because their music doesn't impress you. What the fuck is wrong with you? They usually are just getting their feet wet starting to write music and thats the sound they like. It doesn't mean they will completely abandon traditional music theory or classical composition. Mockery is a first step to becoming a composer, before you put in the time to find your own voice.
> 
> Its become an absolute fucking joke here. Try to think for a moment that behind every peice of music is someone that is TRYING to create something for OTHERS to enjoy. That should be celebrated and encouraged no matter how many fucking chords it has.


You make some good points in all that anger. It's brought up another line of thought for me. Considering that what others will enjoy can be fairly debased, have you ever considered that it could be responsibility of the artist to try and give out something that pushes the limits of what can be enjoyed?


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## Peter Satera (Jan 12, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> Face off was 1997, Gladiator from 2000 and Spiderman from 2002. These are all already really old films and really old music. No point re-visiting it.


You're missing my point, that's _why _I picked them. 

They were chosen to show hybrid was at the boom of the trailer music industry. It was never solely orchestral or pure to begin with, it always used other electronic elements and simplistic themes. To claim, it's growth in popularity with both listeners and creators over 20 years later, means it's _not _killing film. John Williams still makes Star Wars. The two _have _run clearly in parallel together for decades. Therefore, it's nothing more than taste.


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## Al Maurice (Jan 12, 2021)

In any case all good music is of its time. Just thinking what Bernard Herman would have done if he lived in the synth age, as much of his output pushed the boudaries closer in that direction.

Consider Vangelis Chariot's of Fire, look in his score and you'll see similar orchestrational elements as per Bernard Herman, but instead of suspense he manages to carry the torch for the action as the runners jog across the beach just with synths alone.

Another score which is pure synth with sound design elements, was the Dr Who Theme -- a classic of it's time evoking the multi dimensional nature of the time lord and his time machine.

Each one pushed the boundaries in some way, and gave extra gravitas to the picture it was scored against; even though these styles came and went, their music has stayed with us.


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## Greg (Jan 12, 2021)

José Herring said:


> You make some good points in all that anger. It's brought up another line of thought for me. Considering that what others will enjoy can be fairly debased, have you ever considered that it could be responsibility of the artist to try and give out something that pushes the limits of what can be enjoyed?


Jose, hybrid music pushes the limits by definition. Just not in a way that you like. Im more embarassed and ashamed that these elitist threads might make a beginner second guess their art and judge it from a place of sophistication to get the respect of their contemporaries. Which is an absolute joke because your bias comes from lack of production skills.


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## telecode101 (Jan 12, 2021)

..


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## Peter Satera (Jan 12, 2021)

José Herring said:


> You make some good points in all that anger. It's brought up another line of thought for me. Considering that what others will enjoy can be fairly debased, have you ever considered that it could be responsibility of the artist to try and give out something that pushes the limits of what can be enjoyed?


Because the aim isn't always about the enjoyment of an isolated listening experience nor to always push limits. It's about something that contributes and syncs to the imagery, it's not up to the artist to _want _to break the mold. You pick up a guitar to play the guitar, and there's nothing wrong with that.

You've just submitted a track which had a Braam to a director and he loved it! Great! You could have refused, and if the sound offended you that much, you wouldn't even own or made them to include. It's obvious that you can therefore see the merits of it's use, because of the inclination to use it. But, if you want to stand on an opposing position against the wave of hybrid music, while saying it's an artist's responsibility to move beyond or away, it's not a good example to contribute to it's continued trend.

But in my opinion, you shouldn't feel "guilty" for making the director pleased. You fulfilled the role as a composer by the means necessary. You, nor anyone using or producing music with "hybrid" sounds should be apologetic for combining them. Elitism to restrict in the name of purity _is_ the limitation.


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## Greg (Jan 12, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> I am in the camp that believes all music is hybrid. You aren't pushing boundaries. Telling someone they are delusional for thinking they are an original by copy catting popular trends such as Hans Zimmer scores from 10 years ago is not a put down, it's a reality check.
> 
> Is there talent in copy catting -- sure there is. Just like there are very talented singers that live off doing covers of popular songs and posting them on Youtube. But don't be going around claiming you are making Radiohead records. You are on par with karaoke and street busker entertainment for bored people surfing Youtube.
> 
> ...


Who are you talking to? People that arent even on here to defend their work. Its pathetic


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## dcoscina (Jan 12, 2021)

All levity aside, I get where Jose is coming from, though I will say cross-pollination of genres has always fascinated me. I did a reggae-orchestral version of the Dies Irae a few years back. It was fun! Last summer I did a 70s styled fusion piece for orchestra and Rhodes piano. I'd love to get it performed but I doubt it ever will be because it wouldn't really fit in a programme with Debussy or Mozart. 

While I like to focus on genres to improve technique and discipline, I guess I'm also bored by the conventions and like to mix things up. But for marketing purposes, it's a challenge. 

I just watched a really great documentary on Suzanne Ciani and she said that her music in the early 80s was not played because it didn't fit into what was popular at the time. it was only when New Age emerged as a style that she enjoyed more success.


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## visiblenoise (Jan 12, 2021)

I'm no stranger to holding elitist opinions from time to time, but once in a while a song comes around that has just the right notes and sounds at the right times and makes itself known to you under just the right conditions, and all of this meta-level criticism becomes silly.


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## telecode101 (Jan 12, 2021)

..


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## Greg (Jan 12, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> Urgg.. the terms "unimaginative" and "cookie cutter" keep popping up in my head when I listen to it. :-(
> 
> You see, this is the problem when people that don't have a music education or background attempt to make music. They emulate music they heard in Marvel/DC comics movies and Xbox/PS games. It's a bit like me trying to become an art photographer by emulating the pictures and framing I see in perfume ads and fashion magazines. It's not really art. It's pandering to consumerism and commercialism.


Yeah Im the one being broad...

You don't even write orchestral music according to the music you post. You just throw your judgement around like it has some inherent value just because you feel like it does.

Thank god you're here to remind us that we need formal training for our music to be valid. And gaming soundtracks aren't art, they're just consumerism? Ok buddy


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

Greg said:


> Jose, hybrid music pushes the limits by definition. Just not in a way that you like. Im more embarassed and ashamed that these elitist threads might make a beginner second guess their art and judge it from a place of sophistication to get the respect of their contemporaries. Which is an absolute joke because your bias comes from lack of production skills.


Understood. I just have yet to see how copying music that's being copied by every composer that wants to make a penny, pushing a limit. It's kind of the opposite of that.

I'm the opposite of elitist. The fact that you think that I am is telling.

I'm actually not bothered by the fact that you're personally insulting, but I do take exception to one thing. Lack of production skill! Nah, I have a lot of production skill, what I lack is production talent. If you're going insult someone. Get it straight.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 12, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> But don't be going around claiming you are making Radiohead records. ]


tbf Radiohead have only made one good record since 1997.

...

I have a friend who is a successful musique concrète composer. He came to see the indie-rock band I play guitar in and hated it. For some (accurate) particular reasons but also because he just hates indie rock in general. I love it. I don't hate him for hating it, and he doesn't hate me for loving it. We are still friends. ❤️


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## telecode101 (Jan 12, 2021)

..


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## telecode101 (Jan 12, 2021)

..


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## Greg (Jan 12, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Understood. I just have yet to see how copying music that's being copied by every composer that wants to make a penny, pushing a limit. It's kind of the opposite of that.
> 
> I'm the opposite of elitist. The fact that you think that I am is telling.
> 
> I'm actually not bothered by the fact that you're personally insulting, but I do take exception to one thing. Lack of production skill! Nah, I have a lot of production skill, what I lack is production talent. If you're going insult someone. Get it straight.


Have you read your own post? Come on man, you insulted an entire genre and the entire industry that uses it. You admitted yourself that you suck at hybrid production. And yet again you double down claiming that Hybrid music is all derivative and created only for money?

"Truth is, I'm not good at this hybrid stuff any way."

"Hybrid music is an inability to decide on a direction, to commit to some type of music, it's the result of people in the commercial arts industries inability to make up their mind and take an artistic stand. It's a no risk way of creation."

"I'm sure somebody will take offense but whatever, getting too old to care about that."


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## SupremeFist (Jan 12, 2021)

Way I see it, José made some provocative and interesting general statements, born from his own professional experience and naming no other names, and some guy decided to take personal offence for no reason. Cool!


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## telecode101 (Jan 12, 2021)

..


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## Greg (Jan 12, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> Way I see it, José made some provocative and interesting general statements, born from his own professional experience and naming no other names, and some guy decided to take personal offence for no reason. Cool!


"Hybrid music is an inability to decide on a direction, to commit to some type of music, it's the result of people in the commercial arts industries inability to make up their mind and take an artistic stand. It's a no risk way of creation. It's boring me."

I work in the industry on a daily basis and that statement is complete bullshit.


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## Alex Niedt (Jan 12, 2021)

José Herring said:


> It's the Venn Diagram of music. It's, okay lets find those 3 notes, 2 chords of 2 or 3 note harmony that works in any genre of music. It's the equation of people getting together and coming up with this type of creative solution, "Well, we want orchestra but we don't want it to be too.....orchestral. We want electronic but we don't want it to sound electronicy..."


I feel this way about a lot of film/TV music and especially what people call Epic Music. It's often like four-chord pop played with an orchestra, which of course is fine if you're into that, but I can't tell most of it apart and find it _extremely_ boring. I think the issue is the same as it is in the pop world. Placements/$$$ are a driving force, so people follow the success stories rather than their own voices, and a good chunk of content ends up being a copy of a copy of a copy of someone making a copy. It's like a musical equivalent to tape, but every generation loses creative rather than sonic fidelity.


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

Greg said:


> Have you read your own post? Come on man, you insulted an entire genre and the entire industry that uses it. You admitted yourself that you suck at hybrid production.
> 
> "Truth is, I'm not good at this hybrid stuff any way."
> 
> ...


See the difference is that I may have insulted some music, myself but I never insult anybody personally. At least not lately . I knew some people would get insulted because they have a problem separating themselves from what they do, that's not my problem.

Like if somebody insults JW or Goldsmith. I just think they're crazing but I don't get mad. I just move on. They have every right to feel that way and I have every right to disagree. No big deal.

I think being critical of music is necessary. It gets people to look at what they're doing, it helps me to define what I want to do, it's part of being an artist. 

We're all not going to like the same things, but in all honestly, I don't fault anybody for following their passion. 

But, I do reserve the right to critique music and to observe trends and to comment on that and to wonder, is it really that healthy. 

I have no problem admitting that I'm not good at creating drones and hits. I just get bored trying to make it sound good. Limiting the orchestra to pads when I know that it can do a whole lot more. I feel like a cheat. 

The funny thing is that I can do it well enough. Just after 10 hours of programming that perfect bass drone, recording it, running it through a preamp, compressing it, EQ more compression, saturation, more EQ...ect... I just want to pull my hair out. What little I have left any way. I tend to like music with moving parts, lines, harmonies, melodies, ect....I tend to like music to be in a natural setting and tend not to like it over produced with FX. But at some point I realize that it is necessary to do that so I do it, just begrudgingly.

People think that I'm talking about mixing genres, but I'm getting tired of explaining that it's not that. That's what we do. It's the mixing of so many things that it becomes a wash of just something that you can't really tell what it is. The Venn Diagram of music I call it. These 2 or 3 elements that work in any style or genre. 

I'm not talking about HZ or TSFH, ect... They are great. But, once you get down to the 1000'th composer trying to copy their stuff for the last 15 years, you gotta admit man, it gets really watered down to the point where it's musically just not that interesting. But, hey the production value is high so it kind of sells, sort of.

So what I'm wondering is what comes next. I don't want to go back necessarily to John Williams and Jerry Goldsmith as great as they are, that's not really my thing either, but I also don't want to go down the rabbit hole of doing what everybody else seems to be doing. 

I'm not taking an elitist stance. Among the many critiques I get from elitist is that my music isn't fucked up enough, too simple, basic, ect, ect..... It use to bother me. Not any more. Because at one point in my life my music was fucked up, complicated and hard to grasp. I prided myself on it. Not any more. I don't need to prove to people that I have advanced music theory knowledge mostly for the reason that it just doesn't work anyway.

Mostly I'm just sitting here wondering, what's next for me, and I'll have to go on the labor intensive, depressing lonely journey of striking out and doing something at least different enough that it doesn't sound like what everybody else is doing but yet still be able to fit into today's motion picture scene. That will be a trick if I can pull it off.

So to the question of whither "hybrid" music in it's current state, my answer is, not for me. If others want to do it or if some young composer feels inspired by it, by all means, I'm not going to stand in their way, it wouldn't matter if I did.


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## Greg (Jan 12, 2021)

José Herring said:


> See the difference is that I may have insulted some music, myself but I never insult anybody personally. At least not lately . I knew some people would get insulted because they have a problem separating themselves from what they do, that's not my problem.


Jose I feel bad that you feel Im insulting you personally. I was using your own words. I have no clue what your actual production skill is. But please realize that your post was offensive to myself and maybe others that produce this kind of music.


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## Ivan M. (Jan 12, 2021)

@José Herring Where can I hear your music?


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

Greg said:


> "Hybrid music is an inability to decide on a direction, to commit to some type of music, it's the result of people in the commercial arts industries inability to make up their mind and take an artistic stand. It's a no risk way of creation. It's boring me."
> 
> I work in the industry on a daily basis and that statement is complete bullshit.





Greg said:


> Jose I feel bad that you feel Im insulting you personally. I was using your own words. I have no clue what your actual production skill is. But please realize that your post was offensive to myself and maybe others that produce this kind of music.


Understood.


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> @José Herring Where can I hear your music?


I've taken a lot of it down because it was old, and I wasn't happy with it any more. 

But, at the risk of getting totally slammed here for my views, I'll post a brief teaser reel in a moment that I'm working on. Not mastered yet.


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## LudovicVDP (Jan 12, 2021)

Wow, that went south...
I'm now wishing I could delete my post just to make sure it's not understood in a way I didn't intend it to be.
I like hybrid/trailer music. That's what brought me there in the first place actually. I even took the evenant courses. Yet I recognize some of its shortcomings, some of them even boring me quickly. But I also recognize I can't do it, because I'm not good enough. So I didn't mean no disrespect in my post. Au contraire!

BTW, my musical skills AND my production skills are not up to the task. So who am I to talk anyway...?

(Sorry, I'm insecure and I needed to justify myself because I don't like conflict.)


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## Pier (Jan 12, 2021)

José Herring said:


> Yes! Better stated than what I said. It's this formula. It's a formula that everybody knows. It's a formula that even AI's are duplicating. It's a formula that has taken this art form and thrown it into the toilet that now we can't even tell if a machine wrote the piece or a human being.
> 
> It's this limiting the language of music so that it fits in any movie, any trailer, any tv show. It's killing music.
> 
> I was listening to a James Newton Howard cue and went to figure it out and I am like, whoa, there's a chord with an added 6th. Haven't heard that since the 90's. Listening to John Williams, Goldsmith , NIN etal, lots of imagination. Taking risk, taking a viewpoint and putting it out there.


So you're not really talking about genre purity or hybrid vs non hybrid, it's actually the industrialization of music composition/production, no?

This has always happened and will always happen. It's the art vs entertainment or artist vs artisan dilemma we've seen for centuries.

For example, we've come to associate the cliche of hybrid orchestral music with mainstream blockbusters that is repeated ad nauseam along with its chord progressions, orchestration, etc. I imagine because studios/producers demand this style for movies/trailers because it's the safe choice and what audiences are expecting.

Some people take risks and they succeed (eg: Christopher Nolan, Denis Villeneuve, Paul Thomas Anderson, etc) but this might be a survivorship bias thing. If most movies made aspired to be artistic how many would fail commercially? The majority of people actually enjoy the safe blockbustery stuff and it's fine.


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## JohnG (Jan 12, 2021)

Some of this criticism seems thoughtless, to me.

It's a lot easier to cast stones if you are not operating in the commercial arena. Unless you are composing for the next Peter Greenaway, inevitably you have to balance any penchant you might have for esoterica with what the director / producer team want, and maybe what you figure the audience wants.

Sometimes, it's worth remembering that it's not _our_ movie / show / game. It's the audience's, or the director's, or it's all of the above.

*Trailer Hate*

We've had many threads over the years attacking trailer music, often featuring dismissive posts written by people who've never tried it themselves. "Trailer music" is shorthand for a grab-bag of ideas that, admittedly, have been worked over many times. Some of it is pretty worn out.

However, as someone who's actually written a lot of that music and had it licensed for major films, I can tell you it's a lot easer to criticize than to compose one of those that has the magic balance: 

1. sounds cool, 

2. instantly conveys to an audience what kind of film it is, and, nevertheless, 

3. brings something new to that space.

I'm not sure what "artistic" films you guys are even talking about. Some people are throwing in as examples movies that 100% aimed at a commercial audience, albeit possibly one that went to uni. That doesn't, in my opinion, elevate them to what I'd call "art."

*Art?*

Besides, I've seen some pretty feeble operas in my day that audiences seem to take awfully seriously. There is nothing particularly ground-breaking about any of it, in some cases. It's just commercial music and story looking to divert people who are willing to pay for it, just as many movies and TV shows do.


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## Pier (Jan 12, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Thank you for this. I spent a couple of hours this morning listening to "hybrid orchestral" playlists on YouTube, like this one (39 million views) and quite a few more:



Wow 39M views...

If you read the comments it seems people are really connecting to that video. Not only to the music but also the idea of the wolf in the title and image. I'd bet a majority of those views and comments come from young people though.


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

Pier said:


> Wow 39M views...
> 
> If you read the comments it seems people are really connecting to that video. Not only to the music but also the idea of the wolf in the title and image. I'd bet a majority of those views and comments come from young people though.


My wife saw the video still and she loved the wolf and the title. Lesson to be learned in marketing.


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## telecode101 (Jan 12, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I'm not taking an elitist stance. Among the many critiques I get from elitist is that my music isn't fucked up enough, too simple, basic, ect, ect..... It use to bother me. Not any more. Because at one point in my life my music was fucked up, complicated and hard to grasp. I prided myself on it. Not any more. I don't need to prove to people that I have advanced music theory knowledge mostly for the reason that it just doesn't work anyway.


...


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## Yury Tikhomirov (Jan 12, 2021)

This is what I would call a truly hybrid orchestral music - unfortunately it was called Ensemble not Orchestra, but there was a conductor and all musical instruments were electronic or DI’ed including viola, and yes, all performers most likely have had a formal “classical” music degree:


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> Interesting terms. I think you you need to figure out what it is that makes some "focked up" music sound like it's "good" music.
> 
> If you look at some composers like Steve Reich or Phillip Glass. Look for what and where is the artistry in the music and how does it function? It's not just someone throwing random stuff down and hoping for the best. There is conscious and concerted effort and thought put into it and it sounds the way it does for a particular reason. A person who does not have the foundation and background in music that Reich did would not be able to easily figure out how to get to where this is back in the 60s or 70s when this was created.



Yeah, I was more on the John Corigliano side of things.


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## Pier (Jan 12, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> There is conscious and concerted effort and thought put into it and it sounds the way it does for a particular reason.


That doesn't mean it's any good though.

Edit:

I remembered an anecdote of a tv show with Gordon Ramsey where a guy was making salmon with strawberries or such thing which was his signature dish. Then Ramsey made him try this combination blindfolded and he didn't like it.


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## Alex Niedt (Jan 12, 2021)

JohnG said:


> We've had many threads over the years attacking trailer music, often featuring dismissive posts written by people who've never tried it themselves. "Trailer music" is shorthand for a grab-bag of ideas that, admittedly, have been worked over many times. Some of it is pretty worn out.
> 
> However, as someone who's actually written a lot of that music and had it licensed for major films, I can tell you it's a lot easer to criticize than to compose one of those that has the magic balance:
> 
> ...


This is a different matter, isn't it? People who don't like trailer/epic music don't have to make it in order to offer valid criticism from a listener's POV. If I started making trailer music, I wouldn't suddenly find it musically interesting, though I'd enjoy the various production and mixing challenges. I've enjoyed and found challenges in making a lot of music that I probably wouldn't give a second listen if I came across it in a playlist, haha


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## telecode101 (Jan 12, 2021)

..


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## JohnG (Jan 12, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> This is a different matter, isn't it? People who don't like trailer/epic music don't have to make it in order to offer valid criticism from a listener's POV.


I see what you mean, Alex. Nevertheless, I think you're ignoring the point of my post, which is:

_It's easy to dismiss something you've never tried._​
And maybe a sub-point:

_What do we really mean anyway when we say one thing is "art" and another is not?_​Some people have addressed the latter. I did a little, but I am not with those who argue, either that "everything is art" or "anything that is loved by lots of people can't be art."


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## telecode101 (Jan 12, 2021)

..


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## Peter Satera (Jan 12, 2021)

Shit copies occur in every genre and every form of creativity. It's not isolated to Trailer music. 

I'm quite an analytical person, so my perspective is to those against or have a dislike for 'Epic Trailer Music', what exactly do you want done about it? 

I'm failing to see what form of productivity can come from a looping conversation, of 'its good' - 'its not.' You can't wave a magic wand and it's gone or changed, where can this discussion even go, other than another trailer hating bash fest?

Plain and simple. What is the message here that is being sent to those creators? Stop adhering to briefs? Stop making Trailer music so epic? Stop having clients and publishers? Stop being so popular? Stop modernising and being inspired by modern scores?

🤔


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Shit copies occur in every genre and every form of creativity. It's not isolated to Trailer music.
> 
> I'm quite an analytical person, so my perspective is to those against or have a dislike for 'Epic Trailer Music', what exactly do you want done about it?
> 
> ...


Well my critique wasn't for or against any medium of music, just the trend in all media music currently. I guess I'm a little more taken aback by the fact that few people see it or out right embrace it. 

About 20 years ago I went to hear the Doli Lama speak. Fairly smart guy actually, tried to blend quantum physics and spirituality. But, that's not what I really remember. What I remember mostly was that while we were sitting there for 30 minutes waiting for his eminence to grace us with an appearance, there was a dude down by the stage hitting a Chinese tuned drum for 30 minutes at a steady even pace. Lulled the audience into a steady state of hypnosis, except for me that was just perpetually annoyed because it was like Chinese water torture. But, I must admit by the time he did come out, that audience was docile, seated and soaking up every word. I thought it quite a remarkable trick. 

I hear the same thing in a lot of media music. The constant repetitive, nice sounding drones. Puts an audience into a trance rather than engage them. 

But who am I to judge? If that's what people want. I'm just another struggling composer trying to make my way in the jungle.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 12, 2021)

Peter Satera said:


> Shit copies occur in every genre and every form of creativity. It's not isolated to Trailer music.
> 
> I'm quite an analytical person, so my perspective is to those against or have a dislike for 'Epic Trailer Music', what exactly do you want done about it?
> 
> ...


For me, it would be "stop writing music that sounds totally disgusting"


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## Alex Niedt (Jan 12, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I see what you mean, Alex. Nevertheless, I think you're ignoring the point of my post, which is:
> 
> _It's easy to dismiss something you've never tried._​


Not ignoring it. Just don't think it matters. That was the point of my post. If someone doesn't like watching football and thinks it's dumb, am I going to tell them it's just because they haven't played and don't have a deep understanding of the sport? Of course not.


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## JohnG (Jan 12, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> Not ignoring it. Just don't think it matters. That was the point of my post. If someone doesn't like watching football and thinks it's dumb, am I going to tell them it's just because they haven't played and don't have a deep understanding of the sport? Of course not.


Why not? I think it's easy to dismiss and disparage activities we've never tried. 

Because people are not just saying, "I don't care for it," some are saying "it's bad." Those are two different things.



Peter Satera said:


> Shit copies occur in every genre and every form of creativity. It's not isolated to Trailer music.


Peter is right. Composers generate reams of rubbish "art music" every year. I've heard plenty of it, as have many here. Just because the intention is different doesn't make it good.


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 12, 2021)

José Herring said:


> I appreciate the tip!
> 
> But really if one knew a little bit about the orchestra he/she wouldn't need synths to do this.


This deserves to be discussed a bit more. On one hand yes, and on the other hand aren‘t we longing for new or extended flavors in the sound palette? When do they really add to the music‘s artistic value and under what circumstances?


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## Alex Niedt (Jan 12, 2021)

JohnG said:


> Why not? I think it's easy to dismiss and disparage activities we've never tried.
> 
> Because people are not just saying, "I don't care for it," some are saying "it's bad." Those are two different things.


Because it'd be snobbish for me to assume the only reason someone dislikes something is because they're not as knowledgeable or experienced as I am. Again, the act of appreciation is not inextricably tied to the act of creation. If I'm asked to create something I can't stand, I'm not going to suddenly appreciate it on a basic aesthetic level upon creating it. So I can't expect the opposite to be true for others just because I happen to like something they don't.




JohnG said:


> Peter is right. Composers generate reams of rubbish "art music" every year. I've heard plenty of it, as have many here. Just because the intention is different doesn't make it good.


So have you tried creating that "rubbish art music"? It's easy to dismiss and disparage activities we've never tried. ;p Joking aside, I totally agree with this!


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> For me, it would be "stop writing music that sounds totally disgusting"





Wunderhorn said:


> This deserves to be discussed a bit more. On one hand yes, and on the other hand aren‘t we longing for new or extended flavors in the sound palette? When do they really add to the music‘s artistic value and under what circumstances?


Oh for sure. I use a lot of synths in my music. I love synths. 

I just used the Braam as a specific example. It started out as a grand idea. Bass bones, processed a bit if I recall. Maybe pitched shifted down and octave, ect.... It was a glorious effect that I'm sure took Hans+Team or maybe just Hans a lot of time and effort to create, not to mention money and production value. 

11 years later, and I'm pulling up Braams as a preset on a synth I got for $100. Not to say the synth is bad, but it does lack the depth and the brilliance of the original idea. 

It starts with of course this sound getting popular then everybody trying to copy it for whatever reason. Not everybody has that kind of money to recreate the original so it first headed towards resampling and mixing, then down and down and down then 11 years later, that sound is just a common place sound that is still be used only 99% less effectively. It's the equivalent of copying old cassette tapes. By the 3 generation, no matter how much you turn up the Bias knob, it's only a faint echo no matter how pretty it sounds.

Well enough, shit I got to get to work, I have some hybriding to do today. Graft a little of this on top of a little of that, but not too much of this or that.


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## Ivan M. (Jan 12, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Thank you for this. I spent a couple of hours this morning listening to "hybrid orchestral" playlists on YouTube, like this one (39 million views) and quite a few more:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does sound nice.
But, man, am I fed up with that pop harmony progression, in general. Like, ppl, hear me out, there are more chords out there, change it at least a bit dammit!


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## José Herring (Jan 12, 2021)

As a little humorous side note before I go. 

I sat down to watch in my home theater Inception when it came out with my wife. Somehow we got an academy screener or something. The first time the Braams hit she was like OMG!!! TURN THAT DOWN. IT'S SO LOUD...." I still remember the look on her face. I looked back at her and was like 'YEAH BABY!!!!!YEAH!!!" with a huge grin on my face.

So I'm no elitist composer afraid of a grit in the ear. Just to set the record straight.


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## Pier (Jan 12, 2021)

telecode101 said:


> The argument is not about is it good or is if bad music to you. The argument is is it art and is it music and does it constitute breaking new ground in music? Note, this was released way back in the 60s during the flower power, beach boys, bob dylan, woodstock era. If Reich didn't have a solid grounding in what music was and how it functioned, he would not have been able to figure out whic way and how to get to where it is that you need to go to in order to break new ground.


On its own, technical novelty doesn't have much artistic merit IMO as this is simply means to an end. If you look at stuff that has trascended after decades or even centuries, it seems what remains is the human universality of something.

Don't get me wrong, as a student of some technique it is fascinating to understand how it evolved, but I think this is a very different matter.


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## JohnG (Jan 12, 2021)

Alex Niedt said:


> So have you tried creating that "rubbish art music"?


good question! And the answer of course is, "yes," so I could get my degree. However, I used rhythm and some scales so maybe I wasn't _avant garde_ enough.

I attended a concert a couple of years ago at which a set of pieces was presented that involved string players starting in unison and then...very...slowly...drifting out of tune by 15 cents, then back in unison, then out by...20 cents....

You can guess the exciting conclusion.

I mean how much patience is one expected to display??? So yes, there is rubbish at both ends.

Cheers, Alex.


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## Stephen Limbaugh (Jan 12, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> It does sound nice.
> But, man, am I fed up with that pop harmony progression, in general. Like, ppl, hear me out, there are more chords out there, change it at least a bit dammit!


...just wait until LadyGaga discovers what a ii42 chord is. 😅


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## AudioLoco (Jan 13, 2021)

Honestly to try and talk about pure abstract artistic merits in the most commercialized side of a commercial venture of releasing a commercial PRODUCT is never going to be straightforward.

Trailer Music (the commercial/advert for the commercial product/movie) has to be the most appealing, the most contemporary, and cutting edge sounding (to the public, not to composers) it possibly can be.
It has to push on easy emotional human buttons and just be effective, have an immediate impact.
(Not an easy thing to do)

An advert is an advert. It needs what it needs. Doing a good advert is an art form in itself. It needs skills and creative thinking. But it has an external purpose. it's not made just because it wanted to get out of an artist's scull. It is created with careful planning FOR something else. 
And that is fine, and there should be pride for being able to do a great job, and create what the production company and audience want.

(A soundtrack is made for "a" purpose too, but the scope for idea developement is much, much bigger because you don't have to condense "come seeeee meeeee!!" in 30 seconds.)


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## Gerbil (Jan 13, 2021)

Ivan M. said:


> It does sound nice.
> But, man, am I fed up with that pop harmony progression, in general. Like, ppl, hear me out, there are more chords out there, change it at least a bit dammit!


It makes me want to blow my brain out.


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## youngpokie (Jan 13, 2021)

AudioLoco said:


> Honestly to try and talk about pure abstract artistic merits in the most commercialized side of a commercial venture of releasing a commercial PRODUCT is never going to be straightforward.


I kind of get what you're saying but if you take it to its logical conclusion it will become: "Well, of course it's shit - it's commercial". That, or some other way of eventually admitting there should be a different standard for music written for money.

You say - well, that trailer music is expected to push buttons. But in my view, this is not an excuse or even a path to some kind of nuance. Pushing buttons is inherent in the very nature of any creative product. 

I doubt that Strauss or Tchaikovsky didn't think, plan or care about the emotional impact they wanted to deliver with their music. We know for a fact that Strauss was very calculating about effects in his tone poems. The Rite of Spring was 100% a purely commercial product, both the music and the ballet. All of Tchaikovsky ballet's were written to commercial order. The examples are endless.

The way I see it, the clash here is not between writing for "a purpose" (commercial) versus for artistic merit (critical acclaim). 

In fact, this is a false choice in any creative project - choosing only one of these will lead to either suffocating predictability the OP complains about or to unlistenable, forgettable "original" music that only wins over critics and nobody else. 

Everything that was ever considered ground-breaking in art consisted in doing several things, small and minor on their own, in some different way - so that incrementally they end up having a strong cumulative impact. And any art anointed as ground-breaking that also endured only did so because of its memorability and popular appeal.


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## Al Maurice (Jan 13, 2021)

Many of the pieces Tschaikovsky composed were played a handful of times in his lifetime.

Yet a couple of centuries later, many have reached into the orchestral repertoire and are remembered the world over. Who knows if any or many trailer works will reach such heights too?


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## youngpokie (Jan 13, 2021)

Al Maurice said:


> Many of the pieces Tschaikovsky composed were played a handful of times in his lifetime.
> 
> Yet a couple of centuries later, many have reached into the orchestral repertoire and are remembered the world over. Who knows if any or many trailer works will reach such heights too?


In other words - yes, it's totally OK for trailer music to be shit.... 

Next up, soundtracks?


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## muk (Jan 13, 2021)

The* musical content *of trailer music is often reduced to the minimum. If you listen to trailer music with the intention to experience novelty/fresh/sophisticated musical content, you will be disappointed and bored very quickly. And I think that's where the criticism comes from. It's expecting fine detailed musical work from a genre that lives from being painted with a broad brush. Trailer music is not the genre for surprising new modulations, and/or a clever novelty way to use structure, or inspiring handling of dissonance. The job of trailer music is to create excitement, to create an almost physical experience when listening to it. And the musical means to achieve that are not finely chiselled surprises. But the broad brushes that are immediately gripping the audience: it's first and foremost repetition that builds to a loud and physical climax. It's a simple harmonic language that the audience can lock to - often just four chords that are repeated throughout. Then it's a bold melody over these four chords. It's repeating this pattern while the orchestration and the rhythm builds to the climax.

Thus the innovation in trailer music does not lie in the musical content (harmonic language, rhythm, structure, counterpoint etc.). It's in the use of sound design, of impeccable production. In short, I would think that the good trailers manage to create excitement and a novel aural experience through these means. And if they succeed, that's where they bring something new to the table.

Let me demonstrate this with an example. Let's look at Hans Zimmer's 'Time' - a well loved piece of what I would call hybrid music - and at the Schubert Lied 'Furcht der Geliebten' D 285 (in the first version).



(Score attached to this post)


With the Schubert Lied, you can analyse the use of harmony - how Schubert modulates from a flat major to f minor, and on to b flat minor. Where and why he does that (b flat minor with the text 'Nacht ihn umschattend deckend' - 'night with shadow covering'). Where, how, and why the structure of the accompaniment changes (meandering lines of eighth notes on the text 'Wo im Sande der Weg fortschleicht' - 'Where in the sand the path is twisting').
You can analyze the clever structure. A novelty feature of the Kloppstock poem was how he used the dactylic meter (= long, short, short). In the first verse, the dactylus is in the first place. In the second verse, in the second place. In the third phrase in the third. And in the fourth verse in the first place again. That moving dactylus was a completely new feature in german poetry. Schubert very cleverly
uses that feature by using the dactylus for imitations in the middle voices. And he uses it to round of the piece by mirroring the beginning. Thus creating a beautifully balanced symmetry with the irregular meter.

All of this might be very interesting, and overwhelm you with the genius intricacy and beauty of it. Or it may bore you to death when you expected something to grip you with the force of bold and brazen tools.

Now lets look at 'Time' by Hans Zimmer.




If I were to approach it like the Schubert Lied, I would look at the score and see this, repeated 18 times:






These four chords are being repeated 18 times, without harmonic changes, modulation etc. Yet when you describe this music like that, you are missing all the important points. What happens instead is that upon these four chords, a building process evolves that is very hard to not being captured by. It's by adding instruments (orchestral or not - fantastic, for example, the use of the e guitar in my opinion), synth sounds/sound design, and gradually building to a truly captivating and beautiful sound. That is how this piece works so well. It's not the musical content that is genius here - that is purposefully minimal. It's the physical effect this music magically creates - an effect that is perfectly tuned and locked to the pictures - that is truly new and that can't be copied. It's original ideas in the orchestration and the production that create an original effect/affect on the listener.

So I think it's by approaching trailer music with the wrong expectations that led to this discussion. And the same can happen with classical music. If you approach this Schubert Lied with the intention of being knocked off your feet by loudness, deep bass, and being swept away by waves of sound, you will equally be disappointed and bored.

Apologies for the very, very long post. Maybe I am just fantasizing here. But that's how I try to make sense of these very different genres, and peoples reactions to them.


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## telecode101 (Jan 13, 2021)

..


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## el-bo (Jan 13, 2021)

muk said:


> The* musical content *of trailer music is often reduced to the minimum. If you listen to trailer music with the intention to experience novelty/fresh/sophisticated musical content, you will be disappointed and bored very quickly.


Indeed! Isn't trailer music, like most film music, to support and augment the visuals? Sophistication pulls focus, which seems like it would be the last thing a director might want. Also, 1000-horn ensembles seem to be at odds with complex arrangements.

Despite the fact that there are clearly a lot of folk who enjoy listening to it, in it's own right, that wasn't the intention. And criticising it for it's musical merit seems much like listening to minimal techno on the wireless and criticising it for a lack of discernible melody. Both are best experienced in their appropriate settings.


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## jononotbono (Jan 13, 2021)

I honestly don't understand what the problem is of someone not liking a genre of music. We all love what we love, right? If someone doesn't like what someone else loves, who gives a shit. Just write music that you love and let other people write music that they love? What a waste of time. 
Music is music. 

What a happy post. 😂


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## youngpokie (Jan 13, 2021)

muk said:


> The* musical content *of trailer music is often reduced to the minimum.


OK. So trailer music is "barely" or minimally music....?

This makes no sense to me. Either it is music or it isn't. We evaluate it as music or as something else that is not music. This constant binary - either it's like Schubert or it's the formula everyone seems to hate, nothing else is possible - is, once again, a false dilemma.

So, I don't buy the argument that there's this special standard for trailer music and the bar is so low it's practically lying on the ground.

It's perfectly OK to point out when some particular piece of music is just plain bad or when a genre is exhausted and desperately needs some fresh thinking, since the intent is not to offend but to point out the obvious. Bad music and tired genres existed as long as music existed...


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## youngpokie (Jan 13, 2021)

el-bo said:


> Indeed! Isn't trailer music, like most film music, to support and augment the visuals?


Wanted to edit something I wrote in response but deleted it by accident, sorry...

The reason people buy soundtrack albums is because they clearly think of this as music in its own right. They listen to it and engage with it on its own merits. Some film music has become quite famous apart from the movie. 

I would bet most film composers think of their film music as a legitimate music in its own right and not a mere crutch for the video or something that is inferior and shouldn't be listened to without the picture.


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## youngpokie (Jan 13, 2021)

muk said:


> Let's look at Hans Zimmer's 'Time' - a well loved piece of what I would call hybrid music


muk, I also meant to say think you for posting this, it's very moving and beautiful!

Half-jokingly, I post a response, consisting of much much much longer repetitions


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## José Herring (Jan 13, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> I honestly don't understand what the problem is of someone not liking a genre of music. We all love what we love, right? If someone doesn't like what someone else loves, who gives a shit. Just write music that you love and let other people write music that they love? What a waste of time.
> Music is music.
> 
> What a happy post. 😂


It wasn't my intent to disparage any type of music other than the trend towards what I consider "hybrid" music to be reduced down to its irreducible minimum by constant copy catting the same few sources over and over for a decade. Having written music for at least 3 decades now, I've never seen anything like it sweep the field of media music where as prior to this trend people were allowed to be individual and people were looking for more not less in terms of themes, harmonies, orchestration (including synth and sound design which I consider just part of modern orchestration). 

I guess now that the thread has exploded beyond what I thought it would (I was expecting maybe a page or two of people cursing at me), it's raged on and taken turns that were never really intended. I do like threads that do that but it's gotten a little bizarre this thread. 

I attribute it to two things: a) "Hybrid" means different things to different people and b) it struck some soft of nerve of truth. Either way as upsetting as it has been to some people, I've gotten a lot out of the thread.

@Saxer 's comment had me thinking for days. "Hybrid" music just went in the wrong direction. That has a lot of merit. I think a lot of that is the availability of sample libraries within reach of everybody. 

I had decided against posting any of my music. I'm working on a rough reel that's not yet complete but may post it as is. There's 5 cues and it represents about 20 years of music production which I think is interesting. Where I started and were I am is fascinating to me. More than anything my last contribution into the musical realm kind of parallels what is happening over all in music. So now I'm here thinking, maybe it's time to just take the stuff in a new direction. 

( @jononotbono Btw off topic but I loved the video of you going through the string piece you wrote for your sister's wedding. I can't even remember the library you were trying to showcase. I just liked the video and the music. )

Here's a rough reel. Not edited, thrown together out of order but someone has suggested that I post something of my music and I decided that he is right. I think I should put myself on the chopping block before I run my fat mouth.


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## jononotbono (Jan 13, 2021)

José Herring said:


> It wasn't my intent to disparage any type of music other than the trend towards what I consider "hybrid" music to be reduced down to its irreducible minimum by constant copy catting the same few sources over and over for a decade. Having written music for at least 3 decades now, I've never seen anything like it sweep the field of media music where as prior to this trend people were allowed to be individual and people were looking for more not less in terms of themes, harmonies, orchestration (including synth and sound design which I consider just part of modern orchestration).
> 
> I guess now that the thread has exploded beyond what I thought it would (I was expecting maybe a page or two of people cursing at me), it's raged on and taken turns that were never really intended. I do like threads that do that but it's gotten a little bizarre this thread.
> 
> ...



No. You should say whatever you want. I posted that because I don’t understand why anyone is giving anyone a hard time over music they love or hate. But if things lead to interesting discussion then it’s worth taking a slaying!

And thanks man, the String library I showed was Vista by Performance Samples. Now, time to listen to your music that’s on the chopping board 😂


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## jbuhler (Jan 13, 2021)

muk said:


> The* musical content *of trailer music is often reduced to the minimum. If you listen to trailer music with the intention to experience novelty/fresh/sophisticated musical content, you will be disappointed and bored very quickly. And I think that's where the criticism comes from. It's expecting fine detailed musical work from a genre that lives from being painted with a broad brush. Trailer music is not the genre for surprising new modulations, and/or a clever novelty way to use structure, or inspiring handling of dissonance. The job of trailer music is to create excitement, to create an almost physical experience when listening to it. And the musical means to achieve that are not finely chiselled surprises. But the broad brushes that are immediately gripping the audience: it's first and foremost repetition that builds to a loud and physical climax. It's a simple harmonic language that the audience can lock to - often just four chords that are repeated throughout. Then it's a bold melody over these four chords. It's repeating this pattern while the orchestration and the rhythm builds to the climax.
> 
> Thus the innovation in trailer music does not lie in the musical content (harmonic language, rhythm, structure, counterpoint etc.). It's in the use of sound design, of impeccable production. In short, I would think that the good trailers manage to create excitement and a novel aural experience through these means. And if they succeed, that's where they bring something new to the table.
> 
> ...



Weird comparison. I mean, If you wanted to relate Time to the classical repertory, you’d choose a chaconne or passacaglia. If you wanted to relate trailer music you’d look at something like a Bruckner build up to a climax, or his model the opening of Beethoven’s Ninth, or the repeating figures of a Rossini crescendo. There are still plenty of differences, to be sure, but the intimacy and subtlety of the Schubert Lied would find a better point of comparison with popular music that aims at a similar sentiment, not with trailer music or action music. Heck, Schubert’s own symphonies would make a far better point of comparison because then you are at least dealing with musics that have somewhat similar aims.


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## muk (Jan 14, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Weird comparison. I mean, If you wanted to relate Time to the classical repertory, you’d choose a chaconne or passacaglia. If you wanted to relate trailer music you’d look at something like a Bruckner build up to a climax, or his model the opening of Beethoven’s Ninth, or the repeating figures of a Rossini crescendo. There are still plenty of differences, to be sure, but the intimacy and subtlety of the Schubert Lied would find a better point of comparison with popular music that aims at a similar sentiment, not with trailer music or action music. Heck, Schubert’s own symphonies would make a far better point of comparison because then you are at least dealing with musics that have somewhat similar aims.


Then again, Beethoven's 9. symphony has a duration of approximately 70 minutes, while 'Time' has 4. In that sense, a Lied is much closer to trailer music, as both are stand-alone pieces of music of approximately the same lenght. I don't know of a single stand-alone classical piece of music of 4 minutes duration that builds to a huge orchestral climax.

I could have chosen a Lied that builds to a fortissimo-climax. But the differences would be the same.


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## el-bo (Jan 14, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Wanted to edit something I wrote in response but deleted it by accident, sorry...
> 
> The reason people buy soundtrack albums is because they clearly think of this as music in its own right. They listen to it and engage with it on its own merits. Some film music has become quite famous apart from the movie.
> 
> I would bet most film composers think of their film music as a legitimate music in its own right and not a mere crutch for the video or something that is inferior and shouldn't be listened to without the picture.


The only time I've ever listened to trailer music, other than when accompanying actual trailers is either listening to someone's contributions to this community etc., or when watching the odd Youtube tutorial. it just isn't a genre of music that draws me to listen. I think it is music in it's own right, but it's just not musically interesting for me (That's me, personally) to be able to listen to it in isolation. I am interested in the sound-design aspect of it, like others. And in a cinema theatre, when the trailers are shown, I'm right up for it.

And I guess I didn't really think through my ideas about soundtracks in general. They are of course music their own right (Actually, one of my favourite soundtracks is to a film I've never seen). But I think much music that is written for film is still written in support of the visuals. I'm not suggesting it is inferior, but i do think it'd be different if it was conceived to be music that was to be heard without any visual distraction i.e when it _was_ the focus.


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## SupremeFist (Jan 14, 2021)

muk said:


> The* musical content *of trailer music is often reduced to the minimum. If you listen to trailer music with the intention to experience novelty/fresh/sophisticated musical content, you will be disappointed and bored very quickly. And I think that's where the criticism comes from. It's expecting fine detailed musical work from a genre that lives from being painted with a broad brush. Trailer music is not the genre for surprising new modulations, and/or a clever novelty way to use structure, or inspiring handling of dissonance. The job of trailer music is to create excitement, to create an almost physical experience when listening to it. And the musical means to achieve that are not finely chiselled surprises. But the broad brushes that are immediately gripping the audience: it's first and foremost repetition that builds to a loud and physical climax. It's a simple harmonic language that the audience can lock to - often just four chords that are repeated throughout. Then it's a bold melody over these four chords. It's repeating this pattern while the orchestration and the rhythm builds to the climax.
> 
> Thus the innovation in trailer music does not lie in the musical content (harmonic language, rhythm, structure, counterpoint etc.). It's in the use of sound design, of impeccable production. In short, I would think that the good trailers manage to create excitement and a novel aural experience through these means. And if they succeed, that's where they bring something new to the table.
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting "Time" by HZ — I've only seen Inception once (when it came out) so didn't remember it, but it is quite stunning. Note though that even though it is built on a repeating four-chord riff (which of course became acceptable in art music with the rise of minimalism) it is also much more musically sophisticated than most "epic" or whatever stuff.


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## jbuhler (Jan 14, 2021)

muk said:


> Then again, Beethoven's 9. symphony has a duration of approximately 70 minutes, while 'Time' has 4. In that sense, a Lied is much closer to trailer music, as both are stand-alone pieces of music of approximately the same lenght. I don't know of a single stand-alone classical piece of music of 4 minutes duration that builds to a huge orchestral climax.
> 
> I could have chosen a Lied that builds to a fortissimo-climax. But the differences would be the same.


You're really dodging the question, and it remains a weird comparison. You could have chosen a passacaglia. "Time" is also part of a larger piece, either the length of _Inception_ or the soundtrack album, depending on how you want to consider it. So arguably it's more akin to one of those concert extracts from Wagner's _Ring_.


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## muk (Jan 14, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> You're really dodging the question, and it remains a weird comparison. You could have chosen a passacaglia. "Time" is also part of a larger piece, either the length of _Inception_ or the soundtrack album, depending on how you want to consider it. So arguably it's more akin to one of those concert extracts from Wagner's _Ring_.



You are right, a passacaglia would have been structurally closer. But do you feel it invalidates my point? I think you can take any four minutes of classical music you want. It will always have much more musical content than four chords being repeated unaltered 18 times. A passacaglia will have a repeating bass line. Over it, there will be musical changes to the melody, the rhythm, the harmony, the voice leading... So choosing a passacaglia would not have changed anything about my argument. But in any case, you are more than welcome to post your own analytical comparison between any passacaglia and trailer track of your choosing if you think it would add to the discussion.


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## youngpokie (Jan 14, 2021)

Here is a piece of classical music that can be re-orchestrated and slowed down to be alot more comparable with "Time" than the Schubert Lied. 



There is no crescendo build here as in "Time", but it has something in common with it that Schubert doesn't - the form. 

@muk The way I understand your point about chords and harmony here is in the sense of form-building. You're right that the chords in Schubert delineate the music in a very clear and audible way and so create sections (and subsections) in it. This is of course polar opposite to "Time" which only has one single "section". Perhaps that's not what you meant at all - but it made me think about form.

Chopin's prelude is basically a single period form and so is "Time", the only truly fundamental difference between these two is melody and instrumentation.


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## jbuhler (Jan 14, 2021)

muk said:


> You are right, a passacaglia would have been structurally closer. But do you feel it invalidates my point? I think you can take any four minutes of classical music you want. It will always have much more musical content than four chords being repeated unaltered 18 times. A passacaglia will have a repeating bass line. Over it, there will be musical changes to the melody, the rhythm, the harmony, the voice leading... So choosing a passacaglia would not have changed anything about my argument. But in any case, you are more than welcome to post your own analytical comparison between any passacaglia and trailer track of your choosing if you think it would add to the discussion.


I actually think it would. Passacaglias don't inevitably and perhaps not even usually involve changes in harmony but are driven primarily by evolving differences in figure. "Time" offers many new figures and counter figures being brought in over the recurring ground. The figures don't necessary stand out because the idea of the piece is the sound of the expanding totality, of the ensemble, rather than the details of individual figures. And the ground itself is eight measures not four, since C maj 7 substitutes for the E minor every other time and the structure of the build also follows eight measure units, not four. (There is a new element introduced every eight measures; the final two iterations instead contract first to strings and piano then back to the opening piano.) The lack of differentiation between the two halves of its ground, a kind of breathing in and breathing out, or systole and diastole of the heartbeat of time, is also part of its idea, and part of how it manages to feel endless even as it gives shape to its very slow tick-tock.


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## Mark Kouznetsov (Jan 14, 2021)

After reading one page of this thread:






Feels like "Legato is overrated: Da Mudafookin Sequel"


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## mikrokosmiko (Jan 14, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Here is a piece of classical music that can be re-orchestrated and slowed down to be alot more comparable with "Time" than the Schubert Lied.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see it. Chopin's piece does not rely on adding instruments in order to make the music go on. It uses harmonic development instead. That is a truly fundamental difference between the two pieces. IMO, also, makes it a more complex work that Time, apart from the orchestration, obviously.

I can see the appeal of zimmer's piece, anyway, because I like the build up, but I think a better analogie could be Ravel's bolero, i.e., o the famous crescendo from shostakovich Leningrad symphony


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## jbuhler (Jan 15, 2021)

youngpokie said:


> Chopin is a single instrument piece. If you were to orchestrate it, you would have no choice but to repeat the theme in different instruments, which is identical to how Time, Bolero and Leningrad are orchestrated, including in particular the massive doublings to achieve crescendo that would be impossible otherwise. So, if you wanted to do an extended remix of Chopin and repeat it 18 times, you will inevitably end up with something similar to these examples that use layering technique.
> 
> The other thing is thematic complexity. Bolero is a theme with 4 variations. Leningrad - with 11 (plus key change and complex re-harmonization). But Chopin and "Time" are the same theme repeated, with a small difference that Chopin inserts ext. cadence between repetitions. I would argue that "Time" could be made stronger and more impactful with subtle harmonic variation that doesn't create a perceptible sense of closure between the repetitions.
> 
> ...


If I was to choose a Chopin prelude as a point of comparison it wouldn’t be this one, but rather one like the E major (no. 9) or even more the middle C# minor section of the Db major (no. 15), especially the first 32 bars of that section. The latter interestingly enough Rapee excerpted and classified as “monotony” in his collection in motion picture moods (from the 1920s), which itself makes an interesting comparison to “Time.” But Chopin is not really composing over a ground in any of the preludes the way Zimmer is in “Time.” For me, that ground is the most important feature to understanding the idea of Zimmer’s composition so comparisons will best proceed from there. 

(A piece I find that has real kinship is Richter’s “On the Nature of Daylight,” though the ground in that piece is much longer and more intricate. But like Zimmer’s “Time,” Richter’s 24-measure ground does articulate into 4-measure units and many of those units resemble one another much as Zimmer’s two units resemble each other.)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, “Time” is also a 9-fold repetition of an eight-measure idea, not an 18-fold repetition of a four-measure idea. Each eight-measure unit does indeed divide into two four-measure units and those two units are very similar, but they are not identical, and that difference creates the period-like feel, or as I’d prefer a kind of systole-diastole oscillation every eight measures. And Zimmer scores them as eight-measure units, not four.


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## el-bo (Jan 15, 2021)

Seeing as 'Time' has become such a big part of this thread, I hope it's not too far off-topic to post Yuri Wong's recreation that uses only native Logic content:


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## MartinH. (Jan 15, 2021)

José Herring said:


> It wasn't my intent to disparage any type of music other than the trend towards what I consider "hybrid" music to be reduced down to its irreducible minimum by constant copy catting the same few sources over and over for a decade. Having written music for at least 3 decades now, I've never seen anything like it sweep the field of media music where as prior to this trend people were allowed to be individual and people were looking for more not less in terms of themes, harmonies, orchestration (including synth and sound design which I consider just part of modern orchestration).



I think I know what you mean and I used to like it, but I'm getting increasingly sick of that kind of music. I think sooner or later I just have "enough" of every genre and need to switch to others for a couple years. 

If I had to name an example for a good hybrid soundtrack, I'd say Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.




José Herring said:


> Here's a rough reel. Not edited, thrown together out of order but someone has suggested that I post something of my music and I decided that he is right. I think I should put myself on the chopping block before I run my fat mouth.



I was promised blood! And maybe a beheading, with chopping block and all... but the following posts are disappointingly civil, no one itching to cast the first stone it seems. I only glanced over the thread as I'm neither hugely invested in either side nor do I have any great insights to contribute, but let me say one thing: I absolutely love that first track of your reel! Came back for multiple listens since you posted it, in spite of me starting to feel some general "music fatigue" recently and barely listening to anything other than the Deserts of Kharak soundtrack anymore. But your piece sounded delightfully "fresh" in a retro way to me. It's a real orchestral recording, right? I get that feeling sometimes with movies too. I watch something from the 90's or older and I think "Wow, this is so different from the stuff they make now!". Was this one of your older tracks?


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## peladio (Jan 15, 2021)

From the usual 'trailer music bad' to comparing Zimmer's four chord Time to Chopin and Schubert..this thread has it all


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## muk (Jan 15, 2021)

peladio said:


> From the usual 'trailer music bad' to comparing Zimmer's four chord Time to Chopin and Schubert..this thread has it all


It even has the inevitable smart-ass comments that add so much value to the forum.


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## GNP (Jan 15, 2021)

Erm.....I like different projects with different things to write about, with different tones, moods and approaches? Why is everyone arguing like they're only from one place, lol


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## José Herring (Jan 15, 2021)

peladio said:


> From the usual 'trailer music bad' to comparing Zimmer's four chord Time to Chopin and Schubert..this thread has it all


Yeah, unexpected. "Time" is one of the coolest tracks of all TIME! For sure. Also, I happen to like a lot of trailer music so that turn was unexpected too. I just don't think it all has to sound the same and it is getting a lot the "samey" now because the restrictions seem to be so limited that any attempt at anything beyond it, throws it "off genre". 

To me the example of "hybrid" that I'm talking about is that 2 hours of wallpaper music that you can't even tell who really wrote it because it's a melting pot of 15 year old Media Venture tracks. I honestly don't know if the original media venture composers are flattered or appalled that everything they did has been regurgitated so many times as to lose all originality when in the beginning it was damn original.

But, I've made my point over and over again so there's no need to keep making it. I just honestly didn't figure that the thread would go in the direction it did when it was just intended for me to air my frustration and thinking out loud. It's just "time" for me to go in a new direction.



MartinH. said:


> I think I know what you mean and I used to like it, but I'm getting increasingly sick of that kind of music. I think sooner or later I just have "enough" of every genre and need to switch to others for a couple years.
> 
> If I had to name an example for a good hybrid soundtrack, I'd say Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.
> 
> ...



Thank you for listening and your kind comments. The first track has always been one of my favorites. It represents "me" before I had any thought of being liked or popular or anything other than just doing what I heard in my head. It was recorded in '95 or '96. The orchestra is a small orchestra (35 players) so all I heard didn't come out the way that I wanted it to. I heard it much bigger than this, but at the time that I did it there was no way in the world to get any of this with samples so it is what it is.

I consider it a diamond in the rough and actually haven't heard the piece in probably 10 years until I found an old CD reel I had and pulled it off that. It was great to hear it again because I was going for something, didn't quite get there but it had a direction. I think I succumbed to a bunch of comments like "your music doesn't sound like film music" ect. ect... Which being younger and weaker minded I took to heart as to why I wasn't getting more film work and abandoned all hope and just started trying to "fit in" and be "hip". Horrible state of mind, and i realize that now. I just woke up one day and realized that I wasn't particularly fond of much of the musical output commercially and I wasn't particularly liking what I was doing in it.

Curious thing is that the approach in that first cue on the reel did rear its head over the years when ever I did any kind of horror movie which always afforded me the freedom to do whatever I wanted until I started getting passed over for those kinds of film for more gloomy, synth droney type mushy stuff and not to mention the fact that I just got tired of doing horror.

Also, the engineer was way old school. Even old school at the time of the recording. I guess he use to work with John Williams back in 70's and early 80s or something. Armin Steiner. He was into super isolation of each instrument. Kind of opposite of what is happening today. Personally I don't mind it. I know that at the time a lot of people did. I'm thinking of revisiting that actually because he gave those 35 players a lot of Space. He also used an older Roland reverb and had one of those plate verbs that sets on the ground. Looked like two radiators slapped together. It was interesting and kind of different than the Lexicon I was use to.


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## mikrokosmiko (Jan 16, 2021)

By the way, has this been already mentioned in this thread?


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## SteveC (Jun 25, 2021)

I love good hybrid music like:

or( :D ):


And I really don't like computer orchestra pieces. Please, if you want to do orchestral music - write some notes and go to an orchestra or something. (But if it brings you joy to do orchestral pieces on your computer - do it often!)


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## jononotbono (Jun 26, 2021)

jononotbono said:


> No. You should say whatever you want. I posted that because I don’t understand why anyone is giving anyone a hard time over music they love or hate. But if things lead to interesting discussion then it’s worth taking a slaying!
> 
> And thanks man, the String library I showed was Vista by Performance Samples. Now, time to listen to your music that’s on the chopping board 😂


I was shocked to get "tagged" for writing this. But you know what? I wouldn't change a word


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