# ...how do you name five- and six-note chords?



## MarcHedenberg (Sep 6, 2019)

So I'm brushing up on theory for school and there's this chord... F A C E G B. I can tell it's all in Major, but what do I 'call it' and how do I know what to call it? I've tried looking this up online but just got further confused.


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## Rob (Sep 6, 2019)

it's based on a major F triad, and has a major 7, 9 and #11 so that's what I'd call it, a Fmaj7/9/#11


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## MarcHedenberg (Sep 6, 2019)

Rob said:


> it's based on a major F triad, and has a major 7, 9 and #11 so that's what I'd call it, a Fmaj7/9/#11



...was that all there was to it? How did I overcomplicate this? 

Thanks a lot.


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## Rob (Sep 6, 2019)

another way of spelling complex chords is using two superimposed chords, like Emin/Fmaj or Amin9/F
One of my favorites: F#m7/C7


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## Polkasound (Sep 6, 2019)

Many polka bands would simply call that "C major".

And now you all know why I don't post under my real name.


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## d.healey (Sep 6, 2019)




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## I like music (Sep 6, 2019)

I usually name them "high voice count 1, high voice count 2" and then cry in CPU.


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## Vik (Sep 6, 2019)

Rob said:


> it's based on a major F triad, and has a major 7, 9 and #11 so that's what I'd call it, a Fmaj7/9/#11


I'd suggest F maj 9 (#11), since whenever there's a 9, you usually also have a 7 or b7 (if not, it's called "add9" instead of 9).


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## VinRice (Sep 6, 2019)

Vik said:


> I'd suggest F maj 9 (#11), since whenever there's a 9, you usually also have a 7 or b7 (if not, it's called "add9" instead of 9).



This.


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## wst3 (Sep 6, 2019)

I was taught a couple of naming conventions, because music should never be simple<G>...

The convention that 9 includes 7, and 11 includes 9 and 7 is pretty common. If you have a 7 you need to specify that it is a Maj7, if you have a b7 you can omit.

CMaj9 = C, E, G, B, D
C9 = C, E, G, Bb, D
CMaj11 = C,E,G,B,D,F
and so on...
If you are only adding an extra note you usually specify "add"

C7(add11) = C, E, G, Bb, F
C(add9) = C, E, G, D
and so on...
There is room for creativity in naming chords - there probably shouldn't be.

I think that stems from the humble 7th chord, which can be one of four different things, although this convention seems to stick:

C7 = C, E, G, Bb
CM7= C, E, G, B
Cm7= C, Eb, G, Bb
Cm(M7)= C, Eb, G, B
If I ruled the world, or at least had been around when all this started I think I'd have simplified things a bit:

C7 = C, E, G, B
C(b7)= C, E, G, BB
Cm7= C, Eb, G, B
Cm(b7)= C, Eb, G, Bb
Although I can come up with a dozen ways that gets confusing too!

As a guitarist I used to prefer to see the chords written out so there was no ambiguity, even if the note order wasn't physically possible, I knew what was requested, and I could quickly decide if I wanted to omit anything to make it playable. That was then, when I was reading regularly. These days I am quite happy with chord symbols, and I probably leave more notes out than I used to as well<G>!


And I could be completely wrong about all of that!


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## d.healey (Sep 6, 2019)

MarcHedenberg said:


> So I'm brushing up on theory for school and there's this chord... F A C E G B.


I'd be simple and call it a polychord an F major and an E minor. And I'd say you're using the lydian mode.









Polychords - The Jazz Piano Site


A polychord is two or more chords superimposed over each other. There are two ways to think about polychords: as a single entity or as two separate entities




www.thejazzpianosite.com


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## MarcHedenberg (Sep 6, 2019)

Rob said:


> it's based on a major F triad, and has a major 7, 9 and #11 so that's what I'd call it, a Fmaj7/9/#11



Just one thing I'm wondering actually. Why is there a # on the 11?


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## d.healey (Sep 6, 2019)

MarcHedenberg said:


> Just one thing I'm wondering actually. Why is there a # on the 11?


In the key of F the 11th would be Bb but you're playing B so that's the 11th up one semi-tone = sharp


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## Manuel Stumpf (Sep 6, 2019)

In an F major scale the 11th note would be a B flat (Bb). Thus it needs to be #11 to be a B. In principle you could also say it is a flat 12 (b12) instead of a sharp 11.


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## chillbot (Sep 6, 2019)

Vik said:


> I'd suggest F maj 9 (#11), since whenever there's a 9, you usually also have a 7 or b7 (if not, it's called "add9" instead of 9).


Technically correct. Though I'd simplify it even further and just call it Fmaj7(#11). That's coming from jazz, where you know that 9 is going in there no matter what you actually write on paper.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 6, 2019)

Just because I don't like being told what to do, I do what they disallowed at Berklee and use a ∆ for Maj7.

Ergo F∆#11.

Risqué.


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## Leon Portelance (Sep 6, 2019)

Name all the intervals from the lowest note.


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## VinRice (Sep 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Just because I don't like being told what to do, I do what they disallowed at Berklee and use a ∆ for Maj7.
> 
> Ergo F∆#11.
> 
> Risqué.



I like your style sir...


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## VinRice (Sep 6, 2019)

So the moral of all that is, as always, it depends on your audience.


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## Saxer (Sep 6, 2019)

MarcHedenberg said:


> Just one thing I'm wondering actually. Why is there a # on the 11?


It's a fair question as there is no sharp in the notes of an Fmaj/#11.
As the 11 in F would be a Bb the lydian 11 _should_ be a ♮11 in that case to get the B (the #11 in F would actually be a #Bb). It's simply not done because there is too much to calculate if you had to consider the actual written note. So the #11 is more of a construction advice to rise your 11 a half step.

Same with b9, #9, b13. In F#7/b9 the b9 would be natural G instaed of a "flat G sharp" but it's written as a b9 anyway. It's always written the way it works in C.
Oh wait... except the #9 which in C is notated as an Eb instead of D#. Except the Dutch, they write b10 instead of #9 (which is actually correct but didn't establish).
Fun stuff.


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## wst3 (Sep 6, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Technically correct. Though I'd simplify it even further and just call it Fmaj7(#11). That's coming from jazz, where you know that 9 is going in there no matter what you actually write on paper.


This is my favorite answer!! Cause well, yeah, it is going in there.


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## wst3 (Sep 6, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Just because I don't like being told what to do, I do what they disallowed at Berklee and use a ∆ for Maj7.
> 
> Ergo F∆#11.
> 
> Risqué.



Why did we stop using the delta for Maj7???

I still do that too...


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## bryla (Sep 6, 2019)

It's not a polychord since it's build on thirds.

As you can build the major scale on white keys from C you can build chord on white keys from G.

G is G B D. You need to indicate if the third should be lowered
G7 is G B D F. You need to indicate if the seventh should be raised (maj)
G9 is G B D F A and so on.
The number always indicates the highest stacking of thirds and any alterations are mentioned either by the root note or in parentheses.

We stopped using delta for major7 since there have been many handwritten charts where it looked like the circle that was used for diminished.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 7, 2019)

I go down to the nearest cat shelter and name them after the first 2 cats that approach me. 

*cracks knuckles* This chord is called scarf-pockets


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 7, 2019)

I find it best to make my own up...chords that is, not names.


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## Vik (Sep 7, 2019)

wst3 said:


> Cm(M7)= C, Eb, G, B




I guess the reason why Real Book, material from Berklee etc avoid using M for major and m for minor is that in handwritten handwritten scores, they are sometimes misread. That's at least why I just use 'maj' for major and 'm' for minor. I also sometimes use C- instead of Cm. Cm7 is also a lot more common than Cm maj7, so maybe they decided to use the easiest-to-write chord for the one that was used the most.



> If I ruled the world, or at least had been around when all this started I think I'd have simplified things a bit:
> 
> C7 = C, E, G, B
> C(b7)= C, E, G, BB
> ...


Sure, in a way it doesn't make sense to write '7' and _not_ mean the 7th note of the major scale. But since using a Bb along with a C major chord is a lot more common that using a B natural, at least we have saved some cephalopods over the years.




Saxer said:


> It's a fair question as there is no sharp in the notes of an Fmaj/#11.
> As the 11 in F would be a Bb the lydian 11 _should_ be a ♮11 in that case to get the B (the #11 in F would actually be a #Bb). It's simply not done because there is too much to calculate if you had to consider the actual written note.


Yes – I'm glad they/we aren't trying to logical here. 



> Same with b9, #9, b13. In F#7/b9 the b9 would be natural G instaed of a bG# but it's written as a b9 anyway. It's always written the way it works in C.



Here's how I think about this: when deciding if a note should be written with a sharp or a flat, I first check if there's already a version of that note. In chords, with a major third (major 10), I'd never call something b10 (I never do that anyway), and regarding this case:

"Oh wait... except the #9 which in C is notated as an Eb instead of D#" there are 2-3 unwritten 'rules' to deal with:
It's easier to read a chord symbol with only flats or only sharps than it is to read a chord symbol with both
The #9 is the correct label, since there's no natural 9 in there, but it is a natural 10 (3)
#9 chords needs tules to be broken anyway, because they often appear as (alt) chords, and _are_ altered chords, meaning that there's both a #9 and b9 involved - in terms of chord-scale thunking and improvisation.

And, since we're in detail mode (not meant as nitpicking!  ) , I wouldn't write F#7/b9 instead of the more common standard (without a "/"), because "/" is mainly used to define that the chord should be played with a different root note than the "1", like Cm7/Bb.

The Berklee/Real Book standard is IMHO the best standard out there, and it has become as good as it is as a result of detailed discussions between various members of the Berklee staff – discussions they had before the first Real Book was released.


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## MarcHedenberg (Sep 7, 2019)

I really appreciate the time everyone has taken to answer. I believe it's been helpful.

Moving onto a different example. If I have an A flat, C, E flat, G, and B flat...

...would that then be AbMaj/add9?


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 7, 2019)

MarcHedenberg said:


> I really appreciate the time everyone has taken to answer. I believe it's been helpful.
> 
> Moving onto a different example. If I have an A flat, C, E flat, G, and B flat...
> 
> ...would that then be AbMaj/add9?



maybe not if you want the maj7th too. Perhaps Abmaj7/9 but sometimes just Abmaj9 implies the 7th too, at least it did to me when I played jazz guitar. Just make it clear you also want the maj.7th in the chord to be safe - clarity at all times- and you wont go wrong.


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## Rob (Sep 7, 2019)

what Mike says, use "add9" when you want the 9 without the 7...


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## rudi (Sep 7, 2019)

I am educationated!!!
Thanks guys!


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## chillbot (Sep 7, 2019)

Abmaj9 is correct but again, context is important. In jazz it is normal to simplify this as Abmaj7 and you better believe you are also getting the 9 and possibly the 6/13 and maybe even the #11 as well who knows.


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## Tod (Sep 7, 2019)

Fmaj7add9 with a flatted 5th.

Fmaj7/9/b5


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## Rob (Sep 7, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Abmaj9 is correct but again, context is important. In jazz it is normal to simplify this as Abmaj7 and you better believe you are also getting the 9 and possibly the 6/13 and maybe even the #11 as well who knows.


very true and I don't like being told too precisely how to voice a chord, I like to leave that to the moment. That's why I usually reduce chord symbols to the most basic form... as chillbot says, Abmaj7 is more than enough for me.


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## Farkle (Sep 7, 2019)

Rob said:


> very true and I don't like being told too precisely how to voice a chord, I like to leave that to the moment. That's why I usually reduce chord symbols to the most basic form... as chillbot says, Abmaj7 is more than enough for me.



I do the same, and especially if I'm playing with a combo, if I see a 7th chord, I almost always swap the "root" for the 9th, for playing; assuming that the bass (electric or acoustic) will be catching the root.

So if I'm playing with a trio, and I see Fmaj7(#11), I'll play A, C, E, G (instead of F), B. Knowing that the "F" is being picked up by the bass. 

And, now, I even drop the "A" from the right hand, and play it in the left (sometimes). So I'm only playing the 5th, 7th, 9th, and #11th in my right hand of the Fmaj7(#11) chord.

Thanks for the ideas, Bill Evans. Heheh. 

Mike


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## bryla (Sep 7, 2019)

Tod said:


> Fmaj7add9 with a flatted 5th.
> 
> Fmaj7/9/b5


No, it's a sharp 11 as has been discussed - not a flat 5.


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## Tod (Sep 7, 2019)

bryla said:


> No, it's a sharp 11 as has been discussed - not a flat 5.



Ha ha, well I think a flatted 5th sounds better.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 7, 2019)

wst3 said:


> Why did we stop using the delta for Maj7???
> 
> I still do that too...



To be fair, at a music college it does make some sense for everyone to be using the same conventions.

But I was in my early 20s when I went there, and nobody was going to tell me nuffin.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 7, 2019)

^ And as you know, I'm much worse now.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 7, 2019)

MarcHedenberg said:


> If I have an A flat, C, E flat, G, and B flat...
> 
> ...would that then be AbMaj/add9?



AbMaj9 (or Ab∆9 if you're a rebel).

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of this is How It Is Done, not just opinion!

The only exceptions I can think of are different contexts that make it easier to read and understand.

Example: G11, then G13b9, then G7#9, all over a sustained G in the bass. You probably just mean F/G, E/G, Bb/G.


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 7, 2019)

......of course Nick, there's always cm7/Ab bass, just to confuse the OP a little more......


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## bryla (Sep 7, 2019)

mikeh-375 said:


> ......of course Nick, there's always cm7/Ab bass, just to confuse the OP a little more......


No. Again not a polychord. Still tertian.


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## d.healey (Sep 7, 2019)

bryla said:


> No. Again not a polychord. Still tertian.


It's a polychord according to everyone's favorite reference, wikipedia  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychord


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## bryla (Sep 7, 2019)

d.healey said:


> It's a polychord according to everyone's favorite reference, wikipedia  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychord


No. It even states that tertian extensions can be regarded as polychords. 


> Extended chords contain more than one triad, and so can be regarded as a type of polychord


They are however not.


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## d.healey (Sep 7, 2019)

bryla said:


> They are however not.


I don't disagree with you as my knowledge on the subject is low but do you have some authorititive source that explains the distinction?


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## PaulieDC (Sep 7, 2019)

Vik said:


> I'd suggest F maj 9 (#11), since whenever there's a 9, you usually also have a 7 or b7 (if not, it's called "add9" instead of 9).


Bingo.


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 7, 2019)

bryla said:


> No. Again not a polychord. Still tertian.



It's a simple short hand that's absolutely valid and unambiguous to a player, a modern figured bass if you like. It does not imply in practical terms, a polychord, especially in the bitonal sense, which I presume is your objection.

Besides, the definition of a polychord is surely open to theoretical interpretation even with tertian building blocks. One could quite easily describe the juxtaposition of e minor over d minor as such (polytonal/chordal) and not be absolutely wrong. One could also describe it as Em 7/ b9/11 or similar and it _could_ even be perceived as bitonal depending on its surroundings or scoring - although the shorthand in question is easliy understood as being tonal. In a pantonal setting it might not need to be described as anything at all unless the pedant requires it.

There are often alternative ways of describing music, especially in theoretical terms and one could even consider the OP chord in question as Cm7 over an A flat pedal depending on the circumstances. What matters is simple clarity to counter the obfuscation inherent in a complex system.


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## Vik (Sep 8, 2019)

bryla said:


> No. Again not a polychord. Still tertian


It’s not polychord, but Cm7/Ab wouldn’t actually be a polychord either, it would be Cm7 with Ab in the bass; an uncommon way to write Ab maj 9 unless one really wants that kind of voicing. 
I generally try to avoid writing chords as polychords. It’s much easier to in a glimpse understand the function of a chord with traditional chord symbols, and this makes improvisation (and finding other voicings) much easier.


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## Lawson. (Sep 8, 2019)

Farkle said:


> I do the same, and especially if I'm playing with a combo, if I see a 7th chord, I almost always swap the "root" for the 9th, for playing; assuming that the bass (electric or acoustic) will be catching the root.
> 
> So if I'm playing with a trio, and I see Fmaj7(#11), I'll play A, C, E, G (instead of F), B. Knowing that the "F" is being picked up by the bass.
> 
> ...



Swap the C for a D too!! 

B D Eb G for a nice 4 way close or even drop2 that bad boy...or a nice spread Eb B G D for an open Cmin(maj7) which is dope too!


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## ceemusic (Sep 8, 2019)

Vik said:


> I'd suggest F maj 9 (#11), since whenever there's a 9, you usually also have a 7 or b7 (if not, it's called "add9" instead of 9).



This or F△9#11 or F△9+11


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## Mike Greene (Sep 8, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Abmaj9 is correct but again, context is important. In jazz it is normal to simplify this as Abmaj7 and you better believe you are also getting the 9 and possibly the 6/13 and maybe even the #11 as well who knows.


Yep. And this is why, no joke, I had to institute a _"No chords with numbers!"_ rule when session players came in. The quickest way to make a rock track sound cheesy is to throw a bunch of 9's in there.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 8, 2019)

The first rule is no 6 chords (unless they're part of a line), Those sound like someone farted, no matter what the style.


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## chillbot (Sep 8, 2019)

3 pages of posts on Fmaj7#11. Makes me want to pose a couple of hypotheticals.


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## wst3 (Sep 9, 2019)

chillbot said:


> 3 pages of posts on Fmaj7#11. Makes me want to pose a couple of hypotheticals.


Please...


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## Lawson. (Sep 9, 2019)

chillbot said:


> 3 pages of posts on Fmaj7#11. Makes me want to pose a couple of hypotheticals.



Do itttttttttt


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## Saxer (Sep 9, 2019)

chillbot said:


> 3 pages of posts on Fmaj7#11. Makes me want to pose a couple of hypotheticals.


Mankind has written more about C major. So there's hope.


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