# Ranking Libraries From Soft to EPIC



## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

Hey guys,

Im down ill today so I decided to rank the libraries I use a lot from soft to epic. I havn't included all of the libraries I own obviously but I see these kinds of questions pop up quite a bit. I am curious to see where you guys would put them.

-DJ


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 7, 2018)

Probably I don´t comprehend this matrix, but I actually don´t agree here that much. You put the libraries all over the place into places without any merit and reason imo. I actually don´t care about those diagram as they actually tell me nothing. What is soft and what is epic? Are you referring to pure dynamics to ensemble sizes, to music genre what they are capable of? Albion One is pretty much left, so not that epic? Actually is it really? Hmm..and MA2 is more epic but why? This whole picture here doesn´t make any sense to me. Sorry to say.


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## benmrx (Jan 7, 2018)

I would just move Albion One about a 1/2" to the right, and Symphobia a 1/2" to the left.


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## BenG (Jan 7, 2018)

Really fun excersize, Daniel! 

Interesting to see where CSS falls in the spectrum. I'd also add Project Alpha/Bravo too, right beside Damage


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## ryanstrong (Jan 7, 2018)

Would be interesting to contrast that matrix with marketplace demand. To see how closely it aligns.


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Probably I don´t comprehend this matrix, but I actually don´t agree here that much. You put the libraries all over the place into places without any merit and reason imo. I actually don´t care about those diagram as they actually tell me nothing. What is soft and what is epic? Are you referring to pure dynamics to ensemble sizes, to music genre what they are capable of? Albion One is pretty much left, so not that epic? Actually is it really? Hmm..and MA2 is more epic but why? This whole picture here doesn´t make any sense to me. Sorry to say.



Left is soft and right is epic. What I mean by that is when you load up a patch from a library and hit a note does it feel soft or strong and powerful. The difference between soft underscore and big epic trailer cues. I am sure you can tell the difference between the two.

Also yes I feel Albion One is less epic than Ark 2. I use Albion One for soundtrack stuff because it fits nicely without feeling to big. If I try to use it for epic it feels like I am pushing it. Hence why it leans more towards soft.

Also its approximate. And how I feel about it. So it doesn't matter if it makes sense to you. Its just a fun expression of where I see them and how I use them.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

benmrx said:


> I would just move Albion One about a 1/2" to the right, and Symphobia a 1/2" to the left.



Yeah I think most things probably have about an inch wiggle room. This is just how I felt.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

ryanstrong said:


> Would be interesting to contrast that matrix with marketplace demand. To see how closely it aligns.



Absolutely! I noticed as I was laying them out that you can tell which kind of music I prefer to write.

-DJ


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## C-Wave (Jan 7, 2018)

I would put MA2 to the left of CinePerc and nudge CinePerc just a little to the right.​


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

C-Wave said:


> I would put MA2 to the left of CinePerc and nudge CinePerc just a little to the right.​



I could agree to that. Something like this?


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## ryanstrong (Jan 7, 2018)

I added Spitfire's chamber and symphonic libraries. They are overall pretty docile compared to most. The brass in particular is not near as "epic" as some may think.


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## fido94 (Jan 7, 2018)

@Daniel James - thanks for sharing. You have made commentary in your recent videos so this diagram looks pretty much consistent. 

I'm curious: Does CineBrass Pro really make such a difference from CineBrass Core? 

Thanks!


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## fido94 (Jan 7, 2018)

hmmm .... I wonder where Musical Sampling stuff and Orchestral Tools Brass fit


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

fido94 said:


> @Daniel James - thanks for sharing. You have made commentary in your recent videos so this diagram looks pretty much consistent.
> 
> I'm curious: Does CineBrass Pro really make such a difference from CineBrass Core?
> 
> Thanks!



Cinbrass Pro has the 12 horns and Monster Brass. Its definitely on the right!

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

ryanstrong said:


> I added Spitfire's chamber and symphonic libraries. They are overall pretty docile compared to most. The brass in particular is not near as "epic" as some may think.



I havnt used those but from what I have heard that looks right!

-DJ


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## LamaRose (Jan 7, 2018)

Need to add a few inches to the left-hand side to accommodate "N." I'm telling you, this library is so quiet, it's almost as if it doesn't exist at all!


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

LamaRose said:


> Need to add a few inches to the left-hand side to accommodate "N." I'm telling you, this library is so quiet, it's almost as if it doesn't exist at all!



N is already there. You just have to believe.

-DJ


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## Rapollo (Jan 7, 2018)

Unlike the first guy to reply I actually find this very insightful and helpful in gauging these libraries! All I need is one library to get a good reference of your personal idea of soft and epic.

Would be cool if people could keep adding other/their own libraries and see what it ends up as


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## LamaRose (Jan 7, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> N is already there. You just have to believe.
> 
> -DJ


Ah... a moment of satori! N is an an acronym for zeN... hearing/not hearing everything now...


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## Geoff Grace (Jan 7, 2018)

I think our impressions of our libraries depend in part on what elements of them we gravitate toward and use the most. Albion One, for instance, has patches that are huge; but if you already have libraries that are primarily geared toward an epic sound, you might completely ignore that side of Albion One, as that's not its main focus.

Best,

Geoff


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## Quasar (Jan 7, 2018)

Cool idea, and full of a lot of stuff such as the Cinsamples that I don't have... I am surprised to see CineBrass Pro so far to the right of Core.

Albion 1 (legacy) could be positioned just to the left of ONE, but closer to ONE than to Loegria.


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## Johann F. (Jan 7, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I am curious to see where you guys would put them.





AlexanderSchiborr said:


> This whole picture here doesn´t make any sense to me. Sorry to say.





Daniel James said:


> So it doesn't matter if it makes sense to you.



To be fair, you've asked us to chime in... so how it doesn't matter if it makes sense to him? Isn't it the exact point of this post?

I agree with Alexander, the graphic feels all over the place without some basic guidelines. eg. Symphobia can be extremely soft and gentle. So does MA2.


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2018)

how about strike force?


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## Kony (Jan 7, 2018)

Johann F. said:


> To be fair, you've asked us to chime in... so how it doesn't matter if it makes sense to him? Isn't it the exact point of this post?
> 
> I agree with Alexander, the graphic feels all over the place without some basic guidelines. eg. Symphobia can be extremely soft and gentle. So does MA2.


I think you and Alexander are taking this waaaay too seriously....


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## gsilbers (Jan 7, 2018)

Kony said:


> I think you and Alexander are taking this waaaay too seriously....



hey you don't know man... its like jesus and his pals didn't think their cool be good vibe would make such an impact. gotta make this right, one day a few hundred years it would be the gospel of epicness.


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## Sopranos (Jan 7, 2018)

Awesome idea and very useful!

Cheers!


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## NoamL (Jan 7, 2018)

Hey Daniel, this is really cool! 

Around the Christmas break I was working on a project that's quite similar to this with a bit more detail.

Super busy now, but may I send you a PM about it around midweek? It would be cool to collab (it wouldn't take much work at all on your end). I'll give you access to the little software gadget I'm working on.

I'm curious what you would consider the gold standard for _*pp*_ - _*p*_ samples. Albion V certainly, are there any other libraries? and then for _*ff *_- _*fff*_ samples, is Ark3 much more aggressive than Ark1? Do you use Trailer Brass or NI Symphonic Series and where would you rank them?


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## Niklas (Jan 7, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I am curious to see where you guys would put them.



Man, couldn't agree more on your ranking. I'm happy to see Albion One more to the left, since I've always thought this library to be way less epic than some say. Not that it's a bad thing ofc, great lib. Also happy to se CineBrass Pro up there with the Arks, since the 12-horn still is the most in-your-face trailer horn on the market ey?

I wonder where Audio Imperias new Jaeger lib would end up?


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

Geoff Grace said:


> I think our impressions of our libraries depend in part on what elements of them we gravitate toward and use the most. Albion One, for instance, has patches that are huge; but if you already have libraries that are primarily geared toward an epic sound, you might completely ignore that side of Albion One, as that's not its main focus.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



Totally agree. Albion One may feel epic to those who havn't used anything more so. There are a lot of popular libraries I don't have which is why I didn't put them on the list. 

This chart represents where the libraries naturally sit when I open them. For exampl I could make Albion One huge and I could probs make Metropolis Ark 1 softer BUT that would take more work than just using the right tool for the job.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

Johann F. said:


> To be fair, you've asked us to chime in... so how it doesn't matter if it makes sense to him? Isn't it the exact point of this post?
> 
> I agree with Alexander, the graphic feels all over the place without some basic guidelines. eg. Symphobia can be extremely soft and gentle. So does MA2.



No the point is this is how I see them. So it really is irrelevant if my chart doesn't make sense because I may use completely different libraries to each person individually. As I posted in the question above, if you have never used something more epic than Albion One then Albion One would feel huuuuge.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

gsilbers said:


> how about strike force?



Middle right, just behind damage probably.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Hey Daniel, this is really cool!
> 
> Around the Christmas break I was working on a project that's quite similar to this with a bit more detail.
> 
> ...



You can PM me anytime xD 

Gold standard ppp lib is Tundra right now based on the ones I have used. Absolute goto for that. Ark 3 feels like its designed to be more over the top than Ark1. Ark1 still has its roots in reality, but Ark3 just jumps off the edge with a smile on its face, and I love it for that!

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

Saxer said:


> No woodwinds in epic land... not even on the soft side



There are woodwinds in All the Spitfire Albions.

-DJ


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## Mike Fox (Jan 7, 2018)

Daniel, this chart is all wrong. Ark 3 should go first. 

Joking aside, I would put CSS before ONE.


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## dhlkid (Jan 7, 2018)

Epic: 8Dio CAGE Strings & Brass, Symphobia 2

Middle: Berlin Strngs & Brass?


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## paularthur (Jan 7, 2018)

Dragon in that middle area, epic taiko & tom right around that Symphobia area (not far far right because it's sometimes in the bed), Soundiron Apocalypse right behind Damage, Soundiron Sonospheres right around Albion 2.


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

paularthur said:


> Dragon in that middle area, epic taiko & tom right around that Symphobia area (not far far right because it's sometimes in the bed), Soundiron Apocalypse right behind Damage, Soundiron Sonospheres right around Albion 2.



Feel free to download the pic and add to it!

-DJ


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## Fleer (Jan 7, 2018)

Happy to see some sense about Albion One. It can go so sweet and low. Love it.


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

Fleer said:


> Happy to see some sense about Albion One. It can go so sweet and low. Love it.



Heh yeah I never quite understood why its marketed as an epic hybrid library when its REALLY good for more chill soundtrack stuff.

-DJ


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## Markus Kohlprath (Jan 7, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Heh yeah I never quite understood why its marketed as an epic hybrid library when its REALLY good for more chill soundtrack stuff.
> 
> -DJ


Maybe because it sells better? But now you destroyed all illusion Not bad for me. I love the soft side!


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

Markus Kohlprath said:


> Maybe because it sells better? But now you destroyed all illusion Not bad for me. I love the soft side!



Well if you look at where most of the popular libraries are, you can see a lean towards epic.

-DJ


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## Daniel James (Jan 7, 2018)

Also just want to mention down here that this chart isn't an indicator of good vs bad. Its just soft and Epic. 

-DJ


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## novaburst (Jan 8, 2018)

I have often wondered what does a real life orhcestra do when they need to play epic pieces,

Well the only thing they can do is increase the size of sections.

I would say perhaps one of the most qualified library's to be used for epic would be 8dio MAJESTICA, because that library has huge sections


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## Daniel James (Jan 8, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I have often wondered what does a real life orhcestra do when they need to play epic pieces,
> 
> Well the only thing they can do is increase the size of sections.
> 
> I would say perhaps one of the most qualified library's to be used for epic would be 8dio MAJESTICA, because that library has huge sections



I havn't used it so I didnt put it on.

-DJ


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## ysnyvz (Jan 8, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I have often wondered what does a real life orhcestra do when they need to play epic pieces,
> 
> Well the only thing they can do is increase the size of sections.
> 
> I would say perhaps one of the most qualified library's to be used for epic would be 8dio MAJESTICA, because that library has huge sections


Things get a bit complicated with samples, so bigger size doesn't equal more epic/aggressive. Recording/mixing techniques make the real difference. For example SSS vs. BST, 60 vs. 28 players. But their timbre is opposite. They are both reverberant because of the rooms, but BST sounds more aggressive/strong.


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## Niklas (Jan 8, 2018)

I’m curious @Daniel James , just have to ask since it’s on your list, do you still use any patches from Symphobia in your work? And in what way?

I find myself still using some patches from Truestrike, but Symphobia lies dormant way down in the Kontakt list


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## gamma-ut (Jan 8, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I have often wondered what does a real life orhcestra do when they need to play epic pieces,



Brass and big drums. Plus a lot of "here's the quiet bit, here's the loud bit."


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## procreative (Jan 8, 2018)

Hey, maybe we could turn this into a "who's got the most graphics on their grid" c**kfight...


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## Daniel James (Jan 8, 2018)

Niklas said:


> I’m curious @Daniel James , just have to ask since it’s on your list, do you still use any patches from Symphobia in your work? And in what way?
> 
> I find myself still using some patches from Truestrike, but Symphobia lies dormant way down in the Kontakt list



Absolutely, I sometimes layer in the strings but I also use the brass staccatos all the time.

-DJ


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 8, 2018)

Kony said:


> I think you and Alexander are taking this waaaay too seriously....



Do I? I expressed just my opinion because he did ask for. Do I have always to agree to something when I don´t feel so? I don´t think I have to do. I also backed it up with some points in my posts. If you enjoy the post from Daniel t it is truely great and if this graphic is a use for you it is even greater. Daniel mentioned it is fun post and that is fair enough. I don´t take that any serious but I wanted to clarify that for me personally I don´t get any valuable information out of it. Period.


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## Kony (Jan 8, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Do I? I expressed just my opinion because he did ask for. Do I have always to agree to something when I don´t feel so? I don´t think I have to do. I also backed it up with some points in my posts. If you enjoy the post from Daniel t it is truely great and if this graphic is a use for you it is even greater. Daniel mentioned it is fun post and that is fair enough. I don´t take that any serious but I wanted to clarify that for me personally I don´t get any valuable information out of it. Period.


Never said you weren't entitled to your opinion - just said it was taking it too seriously with a negative stance I might add. Both this post and your first are focusing on the point of the thread as opposed to engaging in the thread - should be fairly simple to work out what the thread is about and there's been wide agreement about the placement of libs etc from soft to epic. This wouldn't have anything to do with you not liking the epic genre would it?


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## Daniel James (Jan 8, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Do I? I expressed just my opinion because he did ask for. Do I have always to agree to something when I don´t feel so? I don´t think I have to do. I also backed it up with some points in my posts. If you enjoy the post from Daniel t it is truely great and if this graphic is a use for you it is even greater. Daniel mentioned it is fun post and that is fair enough. I don´t take that any serious but I wanted to clarify that for me personally I don´t get any valuable information out of it. Period.



Its all good mate. This graph is just an approximate look at how I see these libraries. I am just having some fun, loving the conversation with you lot. Bit of back and forth, some subtle discussions. 

Not everything here has to be life or death haha so feel free to let me know where you would put the libs. Its just for fun 

-DJ


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 8, 2018)

Kony said:


> Never said you weren't entitled to your opinion - just said it was taking it too seriously with a negative stance I might add. Both this post and your first are focusing on the point of the thread as opposed to engaging in the thread - should be fairly simple to work out what the thread is about and there's been wide agreement about the placement of libs etc from soft to epic. This wouldn't have anything to do with you not liking the epic genre would it?



No, not at all. But good that you ask.Sure epic music from these days is not my favorite music but I actually don´t connect this dots and would not like Daniels Post because of it. HAving said that: I have some libraries on this list, like MA1, MA3, Spitfire Stuff and I enjoy the libraries a lot and also I do enjoy some older epic music e.g. from two steps from Hell a lot as I think it is truely good orchestrated. Actually I think what could help to improve that matrix is to use a better terminus for the 2 extremes.For instance "soft", what do you connect with soft? Is it is really the counterpart "epic" or it is not more like "Classic" or "traditional". So when you think more, you realize the short sited use of this matrix. I conncet with soft as an opposing point "hard" or "loud". So now you can say": Oh well this is the same, so epic is always loud" and sure it is often like that. BUt when comparing libraries, it starts to get difficult, because the term "epic" is bound for most people to a specific music genre in film or trailer. And you can use all libraries or most of them in the graph also for classic traditional writing. So for me I would definitely maybe use different terms for this scale here. But maan..it is fun like Daniel sais: So everybody enjoy..I am too complicated as always! :D


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## Kony (Jan 8, 2018)

I think Dominus would go between Loegria and One


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## mac (Jan 8, 2018)

Composer challenge - who can make the most epic track using the softest library (Tundra?) Or not. I'm having a slow day.


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## Kony (Jan 8, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> and I enjoy the libraries a lot


And I enjoy hearing what you do with them


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## Daniel James (Jan 8, 2018)

mac said:


> Composer challenge - who can make the most epic track using the softest library (Tundra?) Or not. I'm having a slow day.



The parallel challenge. Someone has to take Tundra and write something epic, while someone has to take Metropolis Ark 1 and make it soft and ambient XD

-DJ


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## HardyP (Jan 8, 2018)

DJ, thanks for that - I think it´s not only a fun thing, but has some value.
In order to have it as an even more interesting starting point for the VI-novice you might add a price indication in the vertical axis...?


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## novaburst (Jan 8, 2018)

ysnyvz said:


> Things get a bit complicated with samples, so bigger size doesn't equal more epic/



I try not to be so complicated, big size big section = big noise means epic.

Small size small section=small noise quite and soft or none epic.

If your using small sections to do big I think that is the wrong approach even if you can do trickery with eq or limiter. 

In the orchestra world more is big weather it is real life orchestra or samples, when using samples the same approach should be taken as a real life orhcestra.


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## ysnyvz (Jan 8, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I try not to be so complicated, big size big section = big noise means epic.
> 
> Small size small section=small noise quite and soft or none epic.
> 
> ...



I understood what you meant. Yes, big orchestras can get louder. But I meant sample libraries have a character. Spitfire uses tape to record which makes their sound warm, full and soft. While Cinesamples and Orchestral Tools libraries have a bit more bite, punch and rawness. You can easily hear this comparing same articulations at same dynamics like staccato at fortissimo. Some people even think their strings are too harsh. This is just my observation. I'm not taking side, I like having options.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 8, 2018)

Albion III can be mega epic, so it might be a little too much to the left for me. Probably just left of Ark 2. But then, I've included Albion Legacy, I, and II in some pretty massive pieces, so I guess this is mostly just for don't-think-about-it-too-much fun and in that sense it totally works 

In fact, the only library I can think of that is predominantly "soft" (as in it mostly works in that context) is Albion IV. Probably why I don't like that one much (at least the main library).

I'd like to see someone else rank the SF Evos in this manner, might prove interesting imo.


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## AR (Jan 8, 2018)

Hey you missed all the libraries by sonokinetic.


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## Maxime Luft (Jan 8, 2018)

Are the taikos and percussion ensembles in Metropolis Ark 3 that epic? I'm currently working on a few different projects which require that big percussion sound and am waiting to see 8dio's epic frame drum ensemble being on sale.


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## novaburst (Jan 8, 2018)

ysnyvz said:


> I understood what you meant. Yes, big orchestras can get louder. But I meant sample libraries have a character. Spitfire uses tape to record which makes their sound warm, full and soft. While Cinesamples and Orchestral Tools libraries have a bit more bite, punch and rawness. You can easily hear this comparing same articulations at same dynamics like staccato at fortissimo. Some people even think their strings are too harsh. This is just my observation. I'm not taking side, I like having options.



Yes I agree sample librarys have different tones and feel to them.

I think epic is a sound that is created by more, or plenty of.

I don't believe epic or big is louder or the volume meter or who can sound the loudest.

Anyways I hear what your saying.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 8, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I don't believe epic or big is louder or the volume meter or who can sound the loudest.



You said it, +1 million! The people who do think that way shoved us into this awful, overcompressed/limited, tiny dynamic range sinkhole the music world is currently stuck in. Gives an everything-sounds-the-same sheen.


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## noises on (Jan 8, 2018)

Maxime Luft said:


> Are the taikos and percussion ensembles in Metropolis Ark 3 that epic? I'm currently working on a few different projects which require that big percussion sound and am waiting to see 8dio's epic frame drum ensemble being on sale.


Yep, they are seriously pumped....and place enormous power in ones fingers.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 8, 2018)

noises on said:


> Yep, they are seriously pumped....and place enormous power in ones fingers.



The Evolution, SD 3, and Iceni Taikos are pretty darn amazing as well imo. The SD 3 can be more capable of subtlety though I think...more well rounded. Just me.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 8, 2018)

Kony said:


> Never said you weren't entitled to your opinion - just said it was taking it too seriously with a negative stance I might add. Both this post and your first are focusing on the point of the thread as opposed to engaging in the thread - should be fairly simple to work out what the thread is about and there's been wide agreement about the placement of libs etc from soft to epic. This wouldn't have anything to do with you not liking the epic genre would it?


Pretty much ALL posts from Adam and Alexander are a quick stab of some kind. I know, cause I do the same often...


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## mc_deli (Jan 8, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> Pretty much ALL posts from Adam and Alexander are a quick stab of some kind. I know, cause I do the same often...


But their pictures are nice


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 8, 2018)

mc_deli said:


> But their pictures are nice


True that...


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## Ihnoc (Jan 8, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Im down ill today so I decided to rank the libraries I use a lot from soft to epic. I havn't included all of the libraries I own obviously but I see these kinds of questions pop up quite a bit. I am curious to see where you guys would put them.
> 
> -DJ



Fun thread. If nothing else it shows what inspires you towards certain moods for the great music you make. This could be a fun alternative in deciding what to put on a wishlist - do we really need another epic drums library when "soft" percussion is lacking?

Would be rad to see how Berlin Brass stacks up in this.


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## aaronventure (Jan 8, 2018)

Darren Durann said:


> You said it, +1 million! The people who do think that way shoved us into this awful, overcompressed/limited, tiny dynamic range sinkhole the music world is currently stuck in. Gives an everything-sounds-the-same sheen.



It's been slowly getting away from that sinkhole for some time now, and things will only get better. Sure, people still do it, but that's because they don't know better and/or work with insufficient equipment.

If you're mostly listening to bedroom-mixed music (of any genre), I can see why you would think that. But no professional engineer will slam it unless you explicitly insist on it. And when clients do insist, I'll still try to convince them not to do it by playing both versions like they would sound on Spotify (same average loudness), and then it's obvious which sounds better (although sometimes people just want flatlined music for banging out at clubs and festivals at maximum possible loudness).


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## stonzthro (Jan 8, 2018)

Looks accurate to me. I was astonished at Metropolis 3's intensity and volume! Fun post Daniel.


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## AR (Jan 9, 2018)

aaronventure said:


> It's been slowly getting away from that sinkhole for some time now, and things will only get better. Sure, people still do it, but that's because they don't know better and/or work with insufficient equipment.
> 
> If you're mostly listening to bedroom-mixed music (of any genre), I can see why you would think that. But no professional engineer will slam it unless you explicitly insist on it. And when clients do insist, I'll still try to convince them not to do it by playing both versions like they would sound on Spotify (same average loudness), and then it's obvious which sounds better (although sometimes people just want flatlined music for banging out at clubs and festivals at maximum possible loudness).


Start by mixing with K-20 Level and the Monitors set accordingly. That will make your hair stand up when hitting a lo taiko.


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## Puzzlefactory (Jan 9, 2018)

Personally I would put Albion One further towards the epic end. 

It sounds quieter out of the box because Spitfire leave a bit more headroom than other developers, with the volume in Kontakt.


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## noises on (Jan 9, 2018)

Darren Durann said:


> The Evolution, SD 3, and Iceni Taikos are pretty darn amazing as well imo. The SD 3 can be more capable of subtlety though I think...more well rounded. Just me.


I do have SD2, and for the most part the epic aspects are great. On the non epic side (at the risk of being off topic) of SD2, did anyone struggle with the congas, bongos and some of the other more main stream offerings? Limited dynamic range etc?


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## Darren Durann (Jan 9, 2018)

noises on said:


> I do have SD2, and for the most part the epic aspects are great. On the non epic side (at the risk of being off topic) of SD2, did anyone struggle with the congas, bongos and some of the other more main stream offerings? Limited dynamic range etc?



I've had those problems. I always thought that SD3 made up for those problems. The Taikos alone feature samples that are far more wide ranging from a dynamic perspective...in fact, you could say that about the whole of SD3, which is one of the essential percussion libraries imo. Its range knocks the living crap out of the trailer only percussion (though I have found plenty of fun and powerful from cool stuff like Apocalypse Elements and Action Strikes).

All my opinion, and I should mention I use the Darwin Taikos from Iceni almost as much as SD3. They're one hell of a lot more useful than many might think. I think I mentioned Evolution as well (great stuff for Taiko).


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## JohnG (Jan 9, 2018)

novaburst said:


> I don't believe epic or big is louder or the volume meter or who can sound the loudest.



Well, not to be contradictory, because I also sometimes wish my mixes could be more natural, but in writing this you're ignoring commercial considerations.

Time after time, when people audition two cues, say, for a trailer or advert, if one of them is mixed more loudly and maximized, they choose the louder one. It's just reality. The trailer music guys say it all the time.

So part of the reason for the push toward very loud mixes is that if you want to get movie- or game-trailer music chosen in a competitive situation, or your action / battle cue approved by a committee of non-musicians, the mixing and compression and all that cannot be ignored.

And besides, what's so bad about it? People think it sounds cool. I think that in the hands of someone like Tom H (Junkie XL) it sounds cool.

I see condemnation of this approach in some posts on this thread and I understand that impulse, but it is like raging at the weather. You can't change it and it doesn't care. 

I'm not saying I only love the "brick wall" approach. I don't, exclusively. But, having scored, orchestrated, arranged and / or mixed music for projects ranging from Public Service Announcements for the United Way to "real big" movie trailers to video game and "epic" movie battle music, it's undeniable that people respond predictably and positively to a fairly hyped mix in some contexts.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 9, 2018)

The slow attack/fast release setting on compressors today is hopefully, as another member stated earlier, dying out. John is right about it being what the paying folks prefer.

Today is about effect, more than ever. And that is overwhelmingly unsubtle, kick-ya-in-the-head effect. It's all about grabbing attention, and I certainly can understand why it's still widely in use. It's get you to where you need to be, faster.

I admire the composer Miklós Rózsa a lot, for just one reason because he was easily one of the most successful of film composers to make inroads into the Concert music genre, and he made a point of separating the two in his writing. You have the blockbuster, basically-brilliant-and-undying Ben Hur Sturm und Drang (though there were plenty of gorgeous moments in that score as well), then you have heartbreaking melodicism and subtlety in the second movement of his Violin Concerto.

Looking back, I see I mostly just restated what John said, so nevermind lol!


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## Agondonter (Jan 9, 2018)

Interesting arrangement! I don't own any orchestral libraries so I will bookmark the thread for future reference.

I own a couple of piano sound libraries though. One of them is Una Corda and it has some of the softest, mellowest sounds ever for a piano sound library. Definitely one to consider for those that need to create soft, sort of dreamy or eerie textures in their compositions. On the other hand The Giant (the other library I own) has a more robust, percussive sound in general.

Cheers,
Alex


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## novaburst (Jan 9, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Time after time, when people audition two cues, say, for a trailer or advert, if one of them is mixed more loudly and maximized, they choose the louder one. It's just reality. The trailer music guys say it all the time.



Hi @JohnG I am trying to seperate epic from loudness,

First thanks for your input, .....what I am trying to say is you can have a hundred woman singing a chorus, you also can have one woman singing a chorus, if you want you can make the single women sing louder than the hundred woman simply by cranking everything up, that is not an epic sound that is just someone singing with the volume cranked up.

The voices of a hundred woman will sound epic becuase of the numbers giving off different dynamics different chord notes, hi notes low notes and so on. a bit like hearing a football crowd singing their team on its very epic.

Epic is a feel and vibe not a volume.

Mix the musical piece as loud as you want, mix a soft classical piece very at a very high volume it want make it epic,

The volume does not give you the feel its what you do with your musical piece that brings on the feel,
so if you done a crap piece and crank the volume up all your going to hear is loud crap.


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## Andrew_m (Jan 9, 2018)

Good list, Metropolis 3 sounded absolutely gargantuan


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## stixman (Jan 9, 2018)

Epic for me means intensity


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## JohnG (Jan 9, 2018)

novaburst said:


> you can make the single women sing louder than the hundred woman simply by cranking everything up, that is not an epic sound that is just someone singing with the volume cranked up



Well -- I mostly agree, but it depends on what you did besides just cranking up the solo vocalist. There are ways of hyping a mix, as you know, that can make a single big drum or voice seem more what people mean by "epic," or make even a large section seem intimate. But I think I understand you better.

I certainly agree with you, and have written myself as well that the endless search for "epic drums" or "epic brass" is often futile. As long as you have a range of mic positions for the sample libraries you already have, it's the orchestration you use that is going to make things sound epic, along with mixing. 

I have read some comments that were hating on the whole idea of mixing with an "epic" aim in view, which nearly always includes compression and all that. I was responding to that mostly.


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## paularthur (Jan 9, 2018)

Agondonter said:


> Interesting arrangement! I don't own any orchestral libraries so I will bookmark the thread for future reference.
> 
> I own a couple of piano sound libraries though. One of them is Una Corda and it has some of the softest, mellowest sounds ever for a piano sound library. Definitely one to consider for those that need to create soft, sort of dreamy or eerie textures in their compositions. On the other hand The Giant (the other library I own) has a more robust, percussive sound in general.
> 
> ...


In electronic music that's exactly what i use those for, the Giant is so good for driving arpeggios under chords.


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## paularthur (Jan 9, 2018)

Is there a consensus on the definition of epic? Is it the Giglamesh/Tolkien - going on a storied ADVENTURE..? Or... Is it the Michael Bay action, explosions & heavy hitting..? Theme or battle scene..?


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## Greg (Jan 9, 2018)

paularthur said:


> Is there a consensus on the definition of epic? Is it the Giglamesh/Tolkien - going on a storied ADVENTURE..? Or... Is it the Michael Bay action, explosions & heavy hitting..? Theme or battle scene..?



To me epic is a feeling or emotion. Epic music can be larger than life emotionally or sonically, doesn't have to sound like trailers. A cue reduced down to just piano should still have that epic feeling at its core.


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## nicoroy123 (Jan 10, 2018)

Really interesting thread. I am surprised to see CineStrings to the right! It makes me reconsider the product completely. Anybody can comment on how appropriate it is for epic stuff ?


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## ghandizilla (Jan 10, 2018)

nicoroy123 said:


> Really interesting thread. I am surprised to see CineStrings to the right! It makes me reconsider the product completely. Anybody can comment on how appropriate it is for epic stuff ?



The shorts are amazing if you love to hear the harshness of the bow. It's really appropriate for "epic" stuff in the sense of "loud". It's also appropriate for "epic" in the sense of "creating huge dynamic contrasts" because it has a lot of dynamic layers (five for vibrato and five others for non-vibrato). The legato is "neutral", not emotional, I use it essentially for non-vib legato. There has been some complaints about noise in the samples, but I personally never noticed it.


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## Daniel James (Jan 10, 2018)

nicoroy123 said:


> Really interesting thread. I am surprised to see CineStrings to the right! It makes me reconsider the product completely. Anybody can comment on how appropriate it is for epic stuff ?



Yeah it has a really strong tone and doesnt take much to push into the over the top range. That middle lighter colour sort of acts as libraries I use for layering. So I will often load Cinestrings with Cinematic Studio Strings if I want to go big but clean.

-DJ


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## NoamL (Jan 11, 2018)

Checking in on this conversation (sorry, I've been super busy) it's odd that everyone is talking about the room, the mics, the volume of samples, or the size of the recorded orchestras.

It's the _*performed dynamic range*_ of the samples that means everything. If you have a library of _mf_ brass samples you simply won't be able to create "epic" brass melodies with it no matter how much processing you add. Because the timbre of the performance is _mf_ not _ff_. Gain, compression, limiting and even EQ will not change that.

That is what I think @Daniel James was showing with the first chart? The libraries that are more "epic" not only have larger ensembles but they have true _ff_ and true _fff_ sampling. The soft libraries like Albion V have true _pp_ samples, not just _p_, or not just _mp _with a gain fade at the very bottom of the modwheel...

About the supposed "loudness war" - true epic music is not fortissimo from start to finish, there's no point doing that. Even this 1 minute track by @Blakus goes on a journey from _mf_ to _fff_ using the Trailer Brass library.



That is why I used the words _*performed dynamic range*_ - the more range, the more over the top and epic you can make your music. Of course, you can always makeup gain for the quieter parts of the piece so the listener has a more consistent experience. The true dynamic range of a post Romantic sized orchestra is more than comparable to a rock band!

Here's a small idea - check out @Rctec 's private French Horns library (1:29):



Some time ago I tried to recreate those 2 simple Batman notes with my libraries. It was actually somewhat challenging because many libraries do not encompass that entire range. Either they don't go down to _mp_ like for instance Trailer Brass, or they don't go up to _ff_ such as Auddict's Octohorn and Berlin Brass. I got a new appreciation for Hollywood Brass because there are true _p_ and true _ff_ samples available.

I have more to say on the topic of comparing dynamics in libraries but that will do for now


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## Daniel James (Jan 11, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Checking in on this conversation (sorry, I've been super busy) it's odd that everyone is talking about the room, the mics, the volume of samples, or the size of the recorded orchestras.
> 
> It's the _*performed dynamic range*_ of the samples that means everything. If you have a library of _mf_ brass samples you simply won't be able to create "epic" brass melodies with it no matter how much processing you add. Because the timbre of the performance is _mf_ not _ff_. Gain, compression, limiting and even EQ will not change that.
> 
> ...




Yup you can make quiet sound big and loud sound quiet. Totally get that, and if you only have one of the libs you can usually go in any direction.

The chart is more to show where to me they feel like they naturally sit. IE if you want to make tundra big you probably could but you would have to put in real *work*. The same goes for making The Metropolis Ark soft like Tundra.

I have all of these libraries so when I want a certain feeling in my track I reach for the one that will get me where I want to go with the least amount of tweaking/editing.

-DJ


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## Fleer (Jan 11, 2018)

I guess the new Olafur library by Spitfire may prove quite interesting:


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## Critz (Jan 11, 2018)

I think that only someone that rely a lot to "presets" sounds could think to a chart like that. 
I mean...soft or epic depends on the ARRANGEMENT, and after that depends on the PRODUCTION we do. Libraries with very processed sounds (like Damage) could definitely be labelled as epic; but for the most part, a good orchestral library should be able to represent the soft and the strong character of instruments/sections. The result can be soft or epic, depending on our work.


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## Daniel James (Jan 11, 2018)

Critz said:


> I think that only someone that rely a lot to "presets" sounds could think to a chart like that.
> I mean...soft or epic depends on the ARRANGEMENT, and after that depends on the PRODUCTION we do. Libraries with very processed sounds (like Damage) could definitely be labelled as epic; but for the most part, a good orchestral library should be able to represent the soft and the strong character of instruments/sections. The result can be soft or epic, depending on our work.



What sort of presets are you talking about? I am talking about, for example, loading string legato in each library and playing a note. That's as 'preset' as I go.

And I disagree, soft or epic when I talk about samples is when you boot it up and play a few notes where does it feel like it wants to sit. Like I said you can push any of these libraries epic or soft if you have the time. But I have them all and if I am going Epic I am going to reach for Ark 1 over Tundra any day. No amount of 'ARRANGEMENT' is going to change the fact that my life will be considerably easier using a library how it naturally sits than trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

-DJ


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## Darren Durann (Jan 11, 2018)

Whenever I put APE Elements on a track, it's epic duuude.

Really. You could say the same thing about Action Strikes, Iceni. I'm sure what was meant by "presets" either, the curated kind in the Evos? Help me understand.


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## ryanstrong (Jan 11, 2018)

I think @Daniel James is just doing a superficial, generalized chart. It's fun. I contributed.

I feel like I could have some synesthesia fun and replace "Soft -> Epic" for "Brown -> Red" and it would match up with the libraries....actually... interestingly enough the product covers do go in that sort of direction.

If you must take this seriously, more serious then the OP's intent, then maybe make your own spreadsheet and create as many columns and matrices as you want.

Otherwise... this is just a fun collaborative chart that at the end of the day could probably go on the back of a cereal box for a mindless stare.

Thanks @Daniel James I like these kind of things.


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## Kevin Fortin (Jan 11, 2018)

We need more symbolist and sublime libraries. Silent music, secret music.


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## Critz (Jan 12, 2018)

Epic... I just hate that word when it comes to music. So overused (and so inflated).


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## blougui (Jan 12, 2018)

I guess the new Olafur library by Spitfire may prove quiet interesting


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## novaburst (Jan 12, 2018)

Critz said:


> soft or epic depends on the ARRANGEMENT, and after that depends on the PRODUCTION we do



I think after this is achieved, you are 99% there, so yes arrangement is so important more than relying on the library.


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## ghandizilla (Jan 12, 2018)

They are all co-dependent, but there is a hierarchy.
You can have good composition but poor arrangement. On the opposite, if you start from a poor composition, there is no way your arrangement is gonna sound great. (It's what happens to me 90% of the time!) It's the same with production : if your arrangement is all confused and muddy, it will be reverberated in your production.
So, priority wisely, we should prioritize in our everlasting education work :
1 - composition / musical vocabulary
2 - arrangement / orchestration / knowledge of the instruments
3 - production / MIDI programming / knowledge of your virtual instruments / mixing and mastering


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## soundtraktechnoid (Jan 12, 2018)

Anyone ever used that Majestica library by 8dio? Where would that rank on DJ's list?


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## Mike Fox (Jan 12, 2018)

soundtraktechnoid said:


> Anyone ever used that Majestica library by 8dio? Where would that rank on DJ's list?


I have it. It's OK. Nothing to write home about. The problem is that they completely left out the close mics, which I think would really give Majestica an edge. Unfortunately, this was intentional as Majestica is the condensed version of one of their "VIP" libraries, 8W. If you turn on all the mics, Majestica can sound fairly large, but It requires way too much processing power. Overall, I would probably rank it somewhere between Iceni and Ark 1 in terms of "EPICness".

Btw, Musical Sampling's Trailer Strings will punch a hole through any one of the libraries on this chart. I've yet to hear larger sounding strings. I actually stack them with the strings from Ark, and it's earthshaking!


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## NoamL (Jan 12, 2018)

yes, both Trailer Brass and Trailer Strings have some truly excellent _fff_ samples!


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## Daniel James (Jan 12, 2018)

NoamL said:


> yes, both Trailer Brass and Trailer Strings have some truly excellent _fff_ samples!



I don't have those so didn't want to 'guess' where it went.

-DJ


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## MillsMixx (Jan 12, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I don't have those so didn't want to 'guess' where it went.
> 
> -DJ



Daniel I try to get your attention from time to time in the Twitch chat room on your walkthoughs to ask you why you don't use any 8dio orchestral libraries like Majestica or their Adagio strings. I've never seen you use them in your palate on your walkthroughs. I've seen you use their percussion however which is really great! 

However there's a a bit of talk here about Majestica and curious if it's just just not your cup of tea or if you've ever had the chance to play it since it's so epic. Some people feel it's a little bit too over the top and maybe too many players not enough mic options.


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## Daniel James (Jan 12, 2018)

MillsMixx said:


> Daniel I try to get your attention from time to time in the Twitch chat room on your walkthoughs to ask you why you don't use any 8dio orchestral libraries like Majestica or their Adagio strings. I've never seen you use them in your palate on your walkthroughs. I've seen you use their percussion however which is really great!
> 
> However there's a a bit of talk here about Majestica and curious if it's just just not your cup of tea or if you've ever had the chance to play it since it's so epic. Some people feel it's a little bit too over the top and maybe too many players not enough mic options.



Beyond the old Tonehammer versions of things I don't have much of the current 8dio stuff. They do sound awesome though!

-DJ


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## zimm83 (Jan 13, 2018)

Hy Daniel James. Can you give us some infos about Chaos ....It has been delayed for a year, and thought it would be released in December, but still not released. 
Will it come out ? I like so much the material in Bravo. Wanted more, as always..... Thanks.


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## Daniel James (Jan 13, 2018)

zimm83 said:


> Hy Daniel James. Can you give us some infos about Chaos ....It has been delayed for a year, and thought it would be released in December, but still not released.
> Will it come out ? I like so much the material in Bravo. Wanted more, as always..... Thanks.



Technically never 'delayed' as we never gave a release date/window. But soon I hope 

-DJ


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## zimm83 (Jan 13, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> Technically never 'delayed' as we never gave a release date/window. But soon I hope
> 
> -DJ



Ah ok.... Thank you very much for the answer. We will wait. Bravo is so great and full of hybrid sounds !!!


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## windyweekend (Jan 13, 2018)

One interesting one to go into the mix dead center (as a compromise) is Spifire's LCO. It's got some soft woozy drunken articulations you won't find anywhere else, but also some simply sick, extreme arts that one could consider 'epic', but on some twisted, hallucinogenic trip - detuned basses and celli groaning like nothing you've heard and getting smacked. It's awesome sounding, but only for specific circumstances (I've yet to figure out what they are yet, but I'm sure David Fincher would probably figure it out if he ever tires of Trent Reznor - The Girl with The Detuned Cello sounds like a promising title to use this on). As orchestral libs go, it's one to add here, but almost in its own quarantined chamber somewhere safe from everything else.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 13, 2018)

I'm so old that Epic reminds me of cheesy, Errol Flynn swashbuckling movie soundtracks.

PS: really enjoying the OST to Broadchurch 3.


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## mac (Jan 13, 2018)

windyweekend said:


> One interesting one to go into the mix dead center (as a compromise) is Spifire's LCO. It's got some soft woozy drunken articulations you won't find anywhere else, but also some simply sick, extreme arts that one could consider 'epic', but on some twisted, hallucinogenic trip - detuned basses and cello groaning like nothing you've heard and getting smacked. It's awesome sounding, but only for specific circumstances (I've yet to figure out what they are yet, but I'm sure David Fincher would probably figure it out if he ever tires of Trent Reznor - The Girl with The Detuned Cello sounds like a promising title to use this on). As orchestral libs go, it's one to add here, but almost in its own quarantined chamber somewhere safe from everything else.



Aggressive is the term I'd use for LCO. Aggressive is the new epic, you heard it here first.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 13, 2018)

mac said:


> Aggressive is the term I'd use for LCO. Aggressive is the new epic, you heard it here first.



This has got my curiosity at a peak concerning this library. Looks like I'll wait for the next SF to scoop it up. That's a dry library, too, which has a major impact on my interest. SF needs way more dry libraries imo. Bone dry. Like the @Chris Hein.


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## jacobthestupendous (Jan 15, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> The parallel challenge. Someone has to take Tundra and write something epic, while someone has to take Metropolis Ark 1 and make it soft and ambient XD
> 
> -DJ


Not exactly the challenge, but here's something quiet I made with 8dio's epic Lacrimosa choir.


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## Rohann (Jan 17, 2018)

ryanstrong said:


> I added Spitfire's chamber and symphonic libraries. They are overall pretty docile compared to most. The brass in particular is not near as "epic" as some may think.


This is an interesting concept overall. SCS is certainly "smaller" sounding, but have a listen to the demo of "Baba Yaga" on their site, and with the close mics loaded up it can get quite intense and "close".


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## Rohann (Jan 17, 2018)

JohnG said:


> Well, not to be contradictory, because I also sometimes wish my mixes could be more natural, but in writing this you're ignoring commercial considerations.
> 
> Time after time, when people audition two cues, say, for a trailer or advert, if one of them is mixed more loudly and maximized, they choose the louder one. It's just reality. The trailer music guys say it all the time.
> 
> ...


Great points.
(EDIT: Just realized you made a response similar to this in a page I missed. I still enjoy the topic of discussion overall).
Although it's somewhat irrelevant to this post, I do think that separating different perceptions/contexts of "epic" is quite important. A trailer, or a battle cue, needs to be rather "in your face" and immediately grasp one's attention, due to the nature of their requirements. For a longer piece of music though, someone like John Williams or Howard Shore has a _much _better handle on what constitutes epic in the context of a full film than many of the average Marvel-esque scores today, for the same reasons the battle of Helm's Deep in the Two Towers is far more engaging and memorable to most as "epic" than a lot of the CGI-fests that hit theaters and are immediately forgotten. I think this is where the important distinction between "loud" and "epic" is more relevant -- it's about timbre, contrast, tension, dynamics. There's good reason Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe or Shore's LOTR score has had more longevity than some of the "epic" soundtracks released in the last decade. And like you mentioned, orchestration is really where "epic" comes into play.
I really do think note choice has more to do with it than I initially thought as well (in a broad context). Some ascending Hungarian-minor chord-cluster passage is going to sound considerably more tension-filled than the vertically-developing thing with ostinatos.


PS -- Where would one fit East West's HWO? Does it cover the spectrum well overall (Noam mentioned HWB having both true _p _and _f _dynamics)?


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## GtrString (Jan 19, 2018)

I dont own all of these libs, so the comparison on the soft-epic continuum is interesting. Would you be able to counteract the inherent tendencies in the libraries somewhat with a breath controller, you think?


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## NoamL (Jan 19, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> > Hey Daniel, this is really cool! Around the Christmas break I was working on a project that's quite similar to this with a bit more detail. Super busy now, but may I send you a PM about it around midweek? It would be cool to collab
> 
> 
> You can PM me anytime xD



PM sent, finally! Check it out.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 19, 2018)

Regulus said:


> It's not about "preset" sounds at all, it's about the "character" of specific libraries.
> You can take any library and write any material with it, but it's undeniable that some will shine in a certain context while there are better choices for other, because they were built/recorded with a specific concept in mind.



I think there's some validity here. The Bernard Herrmann Orchestral Toolkit can be used for a LOT of things (especially given the dry nature of that library...can't say as much for a lot of the other SF stuff), but it's beyond ideal to get that classic suspense and slasher horror sound. Perfect, even if it is certainly on the niche side.

P.S. I should mention, the BHOT is one of the only SF libraries I can use with EW and Chris Hein stuff...in other words, SF should really put out lots more dry libraries imo.


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## ryanstrong (Jan 19, 2018)

Rohann said:


> This is an interesting concept overall. SCS is certainly "smaller" sounding, but have a listen to the demo of "Baba Yaga" on their site, and with the close mics loaded up it can get quite intense and "close".


Cool, yeah I've taken SCS and made it sound epic.


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## Rohann (Jan 19, 2018)

ryanstrong said:


> Cool, yeah I've taken SCS and made it sound epic.


I kind of hate that term now, but that library can certainly sound hair-raising and intense.


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## ryanstrong (Jan 19, 2018)

Rohann said:


> I kind of hate that term now, but that library can certainly sound hair-raising and intense.


Agree... yeah at this point "epic" is what it is... maybe for a lack-of-a-better-term it's being used. At this point it's become a "thing". Or as CH would say "part of the zeitgeist.


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## Rohann (Jan 19, 2018)

ryanstrong said:


> Agree... yeah at this point "epic" is what it is... maybe for a lack-of-a-better-term it's being used. At this point it's become a "thing". Or as CH would say "part of the zeitgeist.


I really don't mind it when used correctly actually, it's just become a bit of a tongue-in-cheek word in a way as of late and I've developed a knee-jerk response to it.


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## Josh Richman (Jan 21, 2018)

Agreed, the term epic is way over used. It’s so painfully lame. It’s a hipster childish word now. Everything has to to be over the top.. In music it just means EMO, no dynamics, just loud. It was born out of this immature idea that more is always better, taken to the extream.


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## Josh Richman (Jan 21, 2018)

Oh I do love the chart though and any comparison activity like this. It’s a great idea ploting out the samples visually too! I would like to see more of these.


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## Darren Durann (Jan 21, 2018)

It's strange how that word has evolved over the years. Up to the 90s epic meant necessarily lengthy and involved, sometimes the two combined with heroic and/or fantastic.

Gone With the Wind was epic. The Wizard of Oz, Ben-Hur. QB VII, the Godfathers I and II (for a non-heroic example). Epic.


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## ryanstrong (Jan 21, 2018)

What word do we want to use? Let’s be trend setters then if we all hate it so much and just start using another word....


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## Saxer (Jan 21, 2018)

ryanstrong said:


> What word do we want to use? Let’s be trend setters then if we all hate it so much and just start using another word....


Cinematic


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## blougui (Jan 21, 2018)

New Loud


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## blougui (Jan 21, 2018)

Bold
Heroic
Massive
Grand
If it’s related to HZ kinda of trend rather than say Wagner, add New in front of...


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## ryanstrong (Jan 21, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Cinematic


Oh brother... haha, in my mind "cinematic" is more neutral. It's like you would have...
Underscore ........ Cinematic ........ Epic

Words fail us when it comes to the subjective. Semantics just as a whole is funny if you think about it. It is certainly important and has helped us progress as a species but often times it can lead to confusion.

But I guess the confusion points often lead to revelation and thus progress!


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## Sopranos (Jan 21, 2018)

Uge! Bigly!


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## Cryptyc (Jan 22, 2018)

Uberschall libraries are really soft, meaning not good. The samples are way too compressed


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## Karl Feuerstake (Jan 24, 2018)

I own most of these libraries, and have to agree with much of the placement. Metro Ark I and III are just nuts for one-note-glories. With processing you can do a lot with _any_ library (well, within reason), but what Daniel James is talking about is "out of the box" sound, and his placements seem overall fair if I'm to interpret his reasoning.

However there are two percussion sets I might say have more oompf than Damage, and that'd be the old 8Dio Epic Percussion series and the Soundiron Apocalypse Percussion Ensemble. They're insanity. For Brass and Strings though, go to Orchestral Tools, and that Spitfire stuff is nice too: it's more restrained and conservative, but that's useful as well, especially for moments of relief from the _ffff blastississimo._


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## Xaviez (Feb 18, 2018)

@Daniel James Now that you have reviewed Jaeger, where would that place on this chart of yours?
Also, since no library completely lack dynamic range, perhaps it would make sense to add some bars/arrows to show what kind of range each library covers?
Perhaps soft <-> epic could be changed to pppp <-> ffff ?
Lastly, the explanation you made during the Jaeger stream about soft and epic libs vs core libs that has the dynamic range to do both, would be beneficial for new composers to have a list of these.
I started out buying Albion One for instance, and while I find it a good library I got constantly disappointed because my "modwheel doesn't go far enough", would be easier to make the right decision if I had charts like these back then.


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## Daniel James (Feb 18, 2018)

Xaviez said:


> @Daniel James Now that you have reviewed Jaeger, where would that place on this chart of yours?
> Also, since no library completely lack dynamic range, perhaps it would make sense to add some bars/arrows to show what kind of range each library covers?
> Perhaps soft <-> epic could be changed to pppp <-> ffff ?
> Lastly, the explanation you made during the Jaeger stream about soft and epic libs vs core libs that has the dynamic range to do both, would be beneficial for new composers to have a list of these.
> I started out buying Albion One for instance, and while I find it a good library I got constantly disappointed because my "modwheel doesn't go far enough", would be easier to make the right decision if I had charts like these back then.



I'd put it around Symphobia.

-DJ


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## Xaviez (Feb 18, 2018)

Daniel James said:


> I'd put it around Symphobia.
> 
> -DJ


Aight, thanks


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## Jay Panikkar (Mar 25, 2018)

I think this is useful as a starting point for someone like myself who's not too familiar with what's out there in the market. Thanks, Daniel James.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 26, 2018)

Hm, just a bit bewildered... don't really understand the definitions. 
For example Sample Modelings Brass can be very loud and harsh, but straight away (would take substancial work to gt there) it doesn't sound "epic" I'd say. While Metropolis Ark 2 is pretty soft but more in the epic realm than Sample Modeling. Or spitfires Bernard Herrmann Toolkit. Can also be pretty loud and intense from what heard but not what I would call "epic" - Thomas Bergersen, Hans Zimmer sound. Juzt my 2 zent.


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## Rohann (Mar 26, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Hm, just a bit bewildered... don't really understand the definitions.
> For example Sample Modelings Brass can be very loud and harsh, but straight away (would take substancial work to gt there) it doesn't sound "epic" I'd say. While Metropolis Ark 2 is pretty soft but more in the epic realm than Sample Modeling. Or spitfires Bernard Herrmann Toolkit. Can also be pretty loud and intense from what heard but not what I would call "epic" - Thomas Bergersen, Hans Zimmer sound. Juzt my 2 zent.


"Epic" is a bit of an imprecise and over-used word, so it's become a bit meaningless. It probably makes more sense to rank them by dynamics or aggression, as well as by perceived "size" -- i.e. Spitfire's symphonic strings sounds large, but not very aggressive. Bernard Herrmann Toolkit doesn't sound "huge", but it's capable of being aggressive with high dynamics and sounds rather "in your face".

Maybe "epic" just means "how loud are the string ostinatos" .


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## blougui (Mar 27, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> Hm, just a bit bewildered... don't really understand the definitions.
> For example Sample Modelings Brass can be very loud and harsh, but straight away (would take substancial work to gt there) it doesn't sound "epic" I'd say. While Metropolis Ark 2 is pretty soft but more in the epic realm than Sample Modeling. Or spitfires Bernard Herrmann Toolkit. Can also be pretty loud and intense from what heard but not what I would call "epic" - Thomas Bergersen, Hans Zimmer sound. Juzt my 2 zent.


Hi!
Read some of the 1st pages, there lies the answer. As the OP said :
« This chart represents where the libraries naturally sit when I open them. For exampl I could make Albion One huge and I could probs make Metropolis Ark 1 softer BUT that would take more work than just using the right tool for the job. »


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 27, 2018)

blougui said:


> Hi!
> Read some of the 1st pages, there lies the answer. As the OP said :
> « This chart represents where the libraries naturally sit when I open them. For exampl I could make Albion One huge and I could probs make Metropolis Ark 1 softer BUT that would take more work than just using the right tool for the job. »



Huge to me implies size. Ark 2 sounds larger than sample modeling even though it is soft. The latter can be very loud and intense but would not sound "huge" straight away. In that sense you couldn't rank it as "epic". But soft would be wrong to because it is not just and primarily a soft library. The same could be said about Herrmann Toolkit.

This all would then be more about dynamic range - hard to soft, as Rohann above also suggested. 
In that sense, a chart about which libraries are best suited for epic music might be more straight forward (which I think this chart actually is...) - without the _soft_ category. Or something about dynamic range + perceived size. FFF dynamics + large sound? Good for EPIC :D. 
I'd just say that not all that is loud and harsh is epic and not all that is soft is not epic since IMO Ark 2 sounds more epic than Herrmann Toolkit while being soft. Just not a fan of the epic/soft definition, even though I think it comes across what is meant. I understand it more as "which libraries are best suited for epic music"? Which I think you also need some 
softness for to avoid fatigue.


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## SolarCell (Sep 26, 2019)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Probably I don´t comprehend this matrix, but I actually don´t agree here that much. You put the libraries all over the place into places without any merit and reason imo. I actually don´t care about those diagram as they actually tell me nothing. What is soft and what is epic? Are you referring to pure dynamics to ensemble sizes, to music genre what they are capable of? Albion One is pretty much left, so not that epic? Actually is it really? Hmm..and MA2 is more epic but why? This whole picture here doesn´t make any sense to me. Sorry to say.


I think it's pretty clear what DJ meant to say, but that for some reason you sound a little sour in this thread...


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## schrodinger1612 (Dec 1, 2019)

I take it the woodwind and fragile string evos are off screen to the left


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