# Library recommendation



## Kleudde (Dec 25, 2019)

Hello all, 
I know there as been other threads like this one and I did read a couple of them already but still can't decide which library to buy. 
Most people here I guess are doing music for trailers, movies, video games or real orchestra and that is where my thread would be different than the others. I'm in fact new to orchestra and I'm more into metal music, specially black metal. I want to start a new project where I want to incorporate orchestral sounds in my songs. Up until now I've been doing just guitar, bass, drum and screams. I have tried both Garritan personnal orchestra and instant orchestra and was impressed by how it sound but I keep reading everywhere that they sound crap compare to other library. I watched some videos on youtube and read some theads and there are two names that seems to come back for people who start: Berlin orchestra inspire (orchestral tools) and Albion one from spitfire audio. But for what I am doing are they what I need? I know there are different collections for different moods and there are just so much choices out there... 
Thank you!


Here are a couple of exemples of music in the style I would like to do (I know even Garritan sound as good or better than any sounds in those exemples but why not want to sound even better )


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## Henu (Dec 26, 2019)

Ooooh, that Obtained Enslavement! One the most undderated gems ever released and one of the best albums ever done if you ask me. Never had heard Caladan Brood before, but if I was playing in Summoning I'd be rather honored or upset, can't decide which.

But here's the thing. You are not getting the sound of e.g. OE or Limbonic out of any expensive library. In fact, the Garritan stuff sounds most likely way better in your mix than e.g. Berlin Brass and will always do so in the context of black metal. The more high-end your libraries go, the more Nightwish or Therion you will eventually become, and your orchestra will always sound very "detached" from the metal music unless you're Pip Williams. If you still want to take that route, I'd recommend Nucleus or Jaeger (and Albion ONE) - they are already mixed in a way that it's quite easy to make them sit in your metal mix. Or pick up the EWQLSO and go nuts with it. Yes, it works wonders in a non-exposed context.

However, if you want to actually sound more like in the good old times and blend the stuff a bit better (instead of sticking out from your metal like a sore thumb), you are going to need different tools. That means you will actually want - for real - to get the Korg/Roland etc. VSTs. and exploit the hell out of them. And then if you need something to be replaced separately, take those processed and wet orchestral libraries and implement something from there on top of it. Using orchestral samples in metal is going to need a _completely different toolset_ than what you would need for a williamsesque fireworks. Especially in the context of black metal.

When I do metal albums myself, I very rarely include anything over the top- expensive orchestral libraries due to the fact that I have always thought that combining a real, organic orchestra sounds on top of completely unnatural and processed metal music isn't blending together at all. For example, if you slapped all Orchestral Tools or Spitfire on top of that Limbonic Art it would probably sound horrible. But naturally it's all about the arrangement as well. I worked on an black metal album last year which utilized a ton of more expensive stuff but it was all combined with synths and mixed in a way that that the more realistic-sounding sounds didn't stick out too much from the actual metal music.

Hope this is of any help!


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## Geomir (Dec 26, 2019)

What is this? This is Satanic music! This is pure Evil! And it's Christmas period! Man, you need to visit the church more often! Hey just kidding... 

Those nice bands you posted, they are "underground" black metal, symphonic, epic, majestic, but still underground. That's why the orchestral staff they use does not sound so realistic! Maybe it's better that way, as @Henu mentioned, because processed black metal music and real organic orchestral instruments do not blend so well.

Still, mainstream bands like Dimmu Borgir have tried that, they included a real sounding orchestra in their music, and the result is not so bad in the end. Of course their total production has nothing to do with the above mentioned bands, their is more clear, crispy, balanced, with one word: mainstream.

Mentioning your computer configuration (I mean the very basics, such as CPU, RAM, and HDD or SSD drives space), would help! Also budget is very important! I will assume that you are in a medium situation, so I can suggest, like mentioned above, EW Symphonic Orchestra or Nucleus Core, they are both very good all round orchestral libraries to start with, ready-to-use, and their system requirements should not be a problem even in a typical gaming home computer.


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## Kleudde (Dec 26, 2019)

Hi Geomir, 
I'm working from two computers. A desktop (i7 4770, 16 gig ram, ssd 500 gig, 3 hdd of 1to) and a laptop (i5, 8 gig, ssd 250 gig, hdd 1to). I could use only the desktop if requirements are too high for my laptop. 
For my budget I wouldn't want to spend more than 500$ since I'm only starting and I'm not sure if i'm ready to invest a lot of money to this. Was hopping to see some good deal today for boxing day but so far I just saw the albion one with 67% off. (which is a really good deal what do you think?) 
I wouldn't mind sounding more mainstream in fact one of my inspiration for my project is Ayreon which is more rock opera. I like that each album is a story and each character is a different signer and that there is orchestra instruments. So maybe i'll sound a bit more mainstream than the exemples I gave, will see. 
I'm might just start with what I have (the two Garritan) and learn from that. See what I really like, what I'm missing, what I really want/need and what I don't like etc. I have a feeling if I get another library I might be overwhelmed by all the sounds and possibilities and not know what to do with it at first haha


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## Henu (Dec 26, 2019)

Geomir said:


> Those nice bands you posted, they are "underground" black metal, symphonic, epic, majestic, but still underground. That's why the orchestral staff they use does not sound so realistic!



No, it's because those albums he linked are from the late 90´s except for the Caladan one. But in the end, even in 2019, it's more about aesthetics and choices than anything else.

@Kleudde , you should definitely get that Albion ONE with that price, as it will add just the right amount of realism to your music without being too defined and could work really nice in that Ayreon- type of stuff as well.


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## Kleudde (Dec 27, 2019)

Wow thank you both Geomir and Henu! I just checked the EWQLSO and it does sounds really good from their audio samples! And it's on sale too! I've read a little bit about it and people seems to like it better than albion one too. I'll decide probably today if I get it or not, just not too sure if I should get the gold one or the platinum...


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## Henu (Dec 27, 2019)

You may want the extra mic positions, so if your wallet (and HDD) can stand it, I'd go for the Platinum myself. However, the Gold works just fine for metal music as well, so it's really not gamebreaking. The only difference between the two is extra mics and 24-bit samples, which the latter is debated to death.


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## Kleudde (Dec 27, 2019)

Done, I took the gold one. 
Thank you both for your help!


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## Geomir (Dec 27, 2019)

Henu said:


> No, it's because those albums he linked are from the late 90´s except for the Caladan one. But in the end, even in 2019, it's more about aesthetics and choices than anything else.
> 
> @Kleudde , you should definitely get that Albion ONE with that price, as it will add just the right amount of realism to your music without being too defined and could work really nice in that Ayreon- type of stuff as well.


Why did you start your sentence with "no"? We agree that it's about aesthetics, and that underground black metal bands do not use ultra realistic orchestral instruments for the above mentioned aesthetic reasons! Me and my brother own more than 4000 (FOUR THOUSAND) metal CDs (all of them original, no piracy here), mainly epic, pagan, viking, Gothic, atmospheric, symphonic, majestic, melodic black or death metal, call it how you like!

It's impressive how so many bands choose to have this sound, which I really like! Somehow it travels me to those pagan, winter landscapes more successfully that mainstream bands with real sounding orchestral sounds, like Therion, Rhapsody (of Fire), Dimmu Borgir, etc... 

About Caladan Brood, I like them, but I find then too simple for my taste... Also they did something that it's not so "nice". Hey @Kleudde check their first song's (City of Azure Fire) introduction, and then compare it with Jeremy Soule's Morrowind OST song "The Road Most Travelled":



They are a little similar, aren't they?


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## Geomir (Dec 27, 2019)

Kleudde said:


> Done, I took the gold one.
> Thank you both for your help!


Exellent choice! I was going to recommend you the Gold Edition for sure! It's just what you need for your first serious orchestral library, and it will be very kind to your decent computer! Also this "naturally wet" sound, I think it can really fit into atmospheric / symphonic / epic black metal!


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## Henu (Dec 27, 2019)

Geomir said:


> Why did you start your sentence with "no"?



Because you said that the reason why the bands sound like that is because they are underground, and "that's why the orchestral staff they use does not sound so realistic!". Obviously when seeing only that, I wanted to point out the fact that the main reason is mostly time in these particular examples. (That being said, I'm 100% they wanted the best sounds they could get at the time.)


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## Kleudde (Dec 27, 2019)

Geomir said:


> Why did you start your sentence with "no"? We agree that it's about aesthetics, and that underground black metal bands do not use ultra realistic orchestral instruments for the above mentioned aesthetic reasons! Me and my brother own more than 4000 (FOUR THOUSAND) metal CDs (all of them original, no piracy here), mainly epic, pagan, viking, Gothic, atmospheric, symphonic, majestic, melodic black or death metal, call it how you like!
> 
> It's impressive how so many bands choose to have this sound, which I really like! Somehow it travels me to those pagan, winter landscapes more successfully that mainstream bands with real sounding orchestral sounds, like Therion, Rhapsody (of Fire), Dimmu Borgir, etc...
> 
> ...



Wow you're right the harp sounds really similar! 
I also have the old korg keyboard sounds that I will probably use to to have that old school black metal vibe too


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## Geomir (Dec 27, 2019)

Henu said:


> Because you said that the reason why the bands sound like that is because they are underground, and "that's why the orchestral staff they use does not sound so realistic!". Obviously when seeing only that, I wanted to point out the fact that the main reason is mostly time in these particular examples. (That being said, I'm 100% they wanted the best sounds they could get at the time.)


I was going to ask you about that. I was always wondering, how many of them do it on purpose (using not-so-good-sounding orchestral samples), and how many they just can't afford anything better!

Sure the underground metal scene "requires" not a perfect high quality crystal clear sound, but did it happen in the first place on purpose, or because of the lack of resources?

I think - as you said - that most probably it happened because of the lack of resources, but in the end it became something "cult": this "bad", "foggy", high-pitched sound with not-so-real symphonic instruments was something "new", "different", "underground", and some people just liked it (including me with some specific bands)!


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## Geomir (Dec 27, 2019)

Kleudde said:


> Wow you're right the harp sounds really similar!
> I also have the old korg keyboard sounds that I will probably use to to have that old school black metal vibe too


It really does, and what upsets me is that they do not mention it! I mean, I really like song covers, they are always interesting for me, but doing it "in secret" doesn't seems so nice...

But - as you may have already noticed", EWQLSO Gold includes a harp (you will find it under String Gold -> Harp -> Long -> Harp Pluck Long), which sounds SO SIMILAR to the harp sound we are discussing about, and it's going to make you really happy for your new purchase!


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## Kleudde (Dec 27, 2019)

Geomir said:


> I was going to ask you about that. I was always wondering, how many of them do it on purpose (using not-so-good-sounding orchestral samples), and how many they just can't afford anything better!
> 
> Sure the underground metal scene "requires" not a perfect high quality crystal clear sound, but did it happen in the first place on purpose, or because of the lack of resources?
> 
> I think - as you said - that most probably it happened because of the lack of resources, but in the end it became something "cult": this "bad", "foggy", high-pitched sound with not-so-real symphonic instruments was something "new", "different", "underground", and some people just liked it (including me with some specific bands)!


I know some bands did it on purpose to sound bad (Burzum taking the cheapest mic he could find to sing, I think it was a computer mic haha), Darkthrone (Fenriz bought a cheap second hand tape recorder to record stuff) and Ulver (in an interview they said that the demo sounded horrible because they could not afford a good studio but the second was because they wanted to sound that way). Others probably didn't have a choice, especially the ones with keyboards... keyboard sounds were not that great then. But they created a style. I know Mayhem wanted to be everything opposite to the popular Florida death metal scene including the good sounding albums. Personnaly I like that kind of sound for guitars, remind me of where they are from. It's sound cold as if you're in a storm somewhere in Norway (or in may case in Canada hehe). But for keyboards I like when it sound good.


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## Kleudde (Dec 27, 2019)

Geomir said:


> It really does, and what upsets me is that they do not mention it! I mean, I really like song covers, they are always interesting for me, but doing it "in secret" doesn't seems so nice...
> 
> But - as you may have already noticed", EWQLSO Gold includes a harp (you will find it under String Gold -> Harp -> Long -> Harp Pluck Long), which sounds SO SIMILAR to the harp sound we are discussing about, and it's going to make you really happy for your new purchase!


Maybe they didn't even know they were copying, maybe they heard it once while playing the game and then they had the melody playing in their head thinking it was something new. Or maybe they did know and tried to modify it enough so it would not be a copy who knows. I need a cover of that intro actually with my Garritan, it sounded exactly the same haha but that's good that ewqlso have it too so I could stick with just one library for all my sounds, can't wait to try it.


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## Geomir (Dec 27, 2019)

OK so you are living in Canada, well yes, that qualifies for frozen landscapes, long nights and clouded skies! The perfect setting for black metal!

Oh you made me feel nostalgic about how everything started in Norway, including the suicide, the killings, the churches burning, the prison, everything...

I agree that sound on guitars can give a very cold feeling, perfectly fitting for this type of music! So if you can combine such style of guitars with a nice sounding keyboard and sample libraries, I am sure you are going to achieve exactly the sound you want!

About Caladan Brood, maybe you are right, maybe they didn't do it on purpose, still I cannot put that thought out of my mind! Too much of a coincidence! 

Hey wait to try the EWQLSO Harp! It's so beautiful! Beats GPO's harps for sure! It sounds so nice!


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## Henu (Dec 28, 2019)

Geomir said:


> I was going to ask you about that. I was always wondering, how many of them do it on purpose (using not-so-good-sounding orchestral samples), and how many they just can't afford anything better!



About the sound in general: It really was a combination between having a completely "new" and "evil" sound and trying also to get a sound which is clear and powerful. Most of the people doing the albums back then had a vision how they should sound like, but it was up to the equipment and the mixing engineer to make sure if it could be achieved. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, but despite of couple of "anti-trend-albums" like the abovementioned Filosofem and Nattens Madrigal everything was always done with the best possible sound matching for the vision in mind. 

For what it comes to the orchestral sounds in the 90's, not a single person I know used deliberately bad keyboard sounds for orchestral music. In fact, everyone wanted the best they could get, but synths were rather expensive at the time and were usually considered as a "bastard child" of the band equipment anyway. People could pay (or make their parents pay, haha) that 2000 € for a drumkit but the attitude that "the old synth in the rehearsal room is good enough" kept the better sounds out of many bands' reach until the early/mid 2000's.


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## MartinH. (Dec 28, 2019)

Kleudde said:


> Most people here I guess are doing music for trailers, movies, video games or real orchestra and that is where my thread would be different than the others. I'm in fact new to orchestra and I'm more into metal music, specially black metal.



Welcome to the forum! There are more of us here than you think and I hope you'll share some of your blackmetal with us too.


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