# How Many Times Have you Done An All Nighter?



## Smikes77 (Nov 11, 2020)

And if you have - how many times in a row? (composing jobs) I`m on on 2nd night it looks like.


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## Bluemount Score (Nov 11, 2020)

0 (yet)


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## asherpope (Nov 11, 2020)

Never, and I probably never will. At 41 years old it really doesn't appeal to me.
Interested to hear @charlieclouser weigh in on this. I vaguely remember him being pretty anti that sorta thing.


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## GtrString (Nov 11, 2020)

I used to do allnighters a lot in my 30s and early 40s, then I had a breakdown, and today I shake all over and look into panic attacks if I get so late with my work. I feel there is a price to be paid for those allnighters.


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## Smikes77 (Nov 11, 2020)

Yeah, I`m scoring an hour and a half film in 10 days. This is as fast as I have ever needed to write.


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## MartinH. (Nov 11, 2020)

What is an all nighter exactly? Is it working till sunrise and then sleeping normally but delayed, or is it completely not sleeping one night?


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## Geoff Grace (Nov 11, 2020)

I've done plenty of all-nighters over the years. The worst period was when I worked in the record industry from noon until sunrise, six days a week, for much of my thirties. I typically got by on 3-4 hours sleep during my workdays and then would sleep 10-12 hours on my day off.

I remember working 36 hours without a break, eating while working, on one particular deadline. 

As a result, I learned that the most successful recording artists are the ones who can function with the least amount of sleep. They are superhuman in that regard.

As for me, I was surprised to weather it as long as I did. It ate away at my health.

Best,

Geoff


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## Smikes77 (Nov 11, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> What is an all nighter exactly? Is it working till sunrise and then sleeping normally but delayed, or is it completely not sleeping one night?



No sleep at all


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Nov 11, 2020)

I haven't done an all nighter since I was in my 20s during my studies. Nowadays I'm thinking much more about my health than I did back then.


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## Guffy (Nov 11, 2020)

Sleep will let you do better work more efficiently, so all-nighters are kinda pointless to me. I guess i could see it if it's your last day and you're putting finishing touches on things.
After hearing Matthew Walker talk about the dangers of it, i don't think i'm ever gonna pull an nighter again voluntarily.


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## storyteller (Nov 11, 2020)

Smikes77 said:


> No sleep at all


Especially on a deadline realize that sometimes sleep is more important than work. You might work 20 hours a day... maybe 30 hours straight, but make sure you sleep or your output will be utter junk from a jello mind.


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## Gerhard Westphalen (Nov 11, 2020)

Only once. Had both university assignments to finish and a score to mix with a very short deadline. 

Plenty of sleepless nights not working though. Had one just 2 nights ago where I was thinking about the speakers I've been designing and couldn't sleep.


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## karelpsota (Nov 11, 2020)

I stopped counting haha...

It's pretty common in the programming world to "sprint, rest and evaluate".
A lot of game ideas were made in weekend challenges. Beat Saber is a good example.

I usually sleep 8-10 hours and take a lot of days off. But... once every few months, I'll stay up for 24+ hours, usually writing a custom trailer track due the next day.

The stress and lack of sleep force me to not overthink and just go straight to the finish line.
Some of my most recognized work comes from those sleepless nights. (Shazam Trailer #1)

I also remember Madeon saying he forces himself to create and finish a 3 song EP in 24 hours.
(The last track he did during the challenge: "Home" is on his album "Adventure").

It's interesting to analyze your own focus limit. I know I cap at 14 hours of deep work (production, mixing), then it's pretty shallow work (email, editing, rendering). It's a good brain workout! Just make sure to rest after, or you'll burn out 

In the end, I have so much more respect for composers that sleep 3 hours a night (JXL) and work non-stop for 2 months. I could NEVER do that.


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## Crowe (Nov 11, 2020)

I did one for a university test in my 20's. Fat load of good that did me in the end.

These days I don't even do all-nighters for hackatons.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 11, 2020)

Not once in my life. Not as a youngster during university, certainly not for work and I'm most definitely not gonna do it as a grown-ass man.


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## ed buller (Nov 11, 2020)

back in the eighties and nineties loads. Very few since. I'm 58 and really don't see the point of them anymore. In the old days If you booked the studio and a band was in at ten then quite often you'd work till then. But really unless there is a desperate need ( deadline basically ) the work will suck and you'll just re do it. I had to work through the night a couple of months ago for a tv show...it was horrible

best

e


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## charlieclouser (Nov 11, 2020)

asherpope said:


> Never, and I probably never will. At 41 years old it really doesn't appeal to me.
> Interested to hear @charlieclouser weigh in on this. I vaguely remember him being pretty anti that sorta thing.



Well, I'm anti-all-nighter for employees, but I routinely pull them. I normally wake up between noon and 2pm, and when I have a gig on I work until about 6am or so, whenever the sun starts to creep in. But that's because I don't have any assistants or interns hanging around, so I can work, stop, eat dinner with the wife, watch cartoons or car restoration shows, basically just do whatever I want as long as the deadlines are met.

But I enjoy being in the studio for long periods. I don't do any normal old-guy stuff like play golf or whatever, and I don't have any kids to deal with, so I'm in the studio anyway most of the time. Even though I'm 57 it's no problem, I still have plenty of energy and stamina. It's not like it's digging ditches or anything, it's the laziest possible line of work there is, so 14-16 hours is no problem. But I guess that's not really an all-nighter since I sleep until noon, so.....


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## Billy Palmer (Nov 11, 2020)

Three. I try to avoid, it wastes at least a day afterwards


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## angeruroth (Nov 11, 2020)

Since this thread is specifically about composing jobs I wasn't going to comment, but this is a very sensitive topic for me so I can't avoid it.
If your deadlines are frequently too tight the problem cannot be solved by sleeping less, and trust me if I tell you that all nighters could destroy you. But, if you do it, at least reserve two or three days per night lost. The brain needs time to heal.
Take care!


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## MartinH. (Nov 11, 2020)

Smikes77 said:


> No sleep at all



Well that sounds pointless and unhealthy. I can barely walk straight after 24 hours awake, I'd be useless after an allnighter. Never did this and not planning to. 




karelpsota said:


> It's also interesting to analyze your own focus limit. I know I cap at 14 hours of deep work (production, mixing), then it's pretty shallow work (email, editing, rendering). It's a good brain workout!



Did you collect any data to arrive at the conclusion that you actually get a workout effect from this? I'd be very interested, because my ability to focus seems to only go down over time. 




karelpsota said:


> The stress and lack of sleep force me to not overthink and just go straight to the finish line.
> I think some of my most recognized work comes from those sleepless nights. (Shazam Trailer #1)
> 
> It's also pretty common in the tech world to "sprint, rest and evaluate".
> ...


I think there can be a lot of value in the no-time-for-overthinking challenges. But I don't think you need to add sleep deprivation to get that benefit.


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## AlexRuger (Nov 11, 2020)

Geoff Grace said:


> I learned that the most successful recording artists are the ones who can function with the least amount of sleep. They are superhuman in that regard.



This is absolutely 100% true. Some people just genetically require less sleep; others simply require more. I've observed a very strong correlation between falling into the former category and success in this field. Obviously there's tons more to it (really not trying to get into a discussion about that for the billionth time on this forum), but the correlation is IMO too strong to ignore.


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## asherpope (Nov 11, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, I'm anti-all-nighter for employees, but I routinely pull them. I normally wake up between noon and 2pm, and when I have a gig on I work until about 6am or so, whenever the sun starts to creep in. But that's because I don't have any assistants or interns hanging around, so I can work, stop, eat dinner with the wife, watch cartoons or car restoration shows, basically just do whatever I want as long as the deadlines are met.
> 
> But I enjoy being in the studio for long periods. I don't do any normal old-guy stuff like play golf or whatever, and I don't have any kids to deal with, so I'm in the studio anyway most of the time. Even though I'm 57 it's no problem, I still have plenty of energy and stamina. It's not like it's digging ditches or anything, it's the laziest possible line of work there is, so 14-16 hours is no problem. But I guess that's not really an all-nighter since I sleep until noon, so.....


Sorry if I misremembered! I recall you saying something along the lines of "I got into this job because it gave me the freedom to play video games and goof around plus have fun with sounds" or words to that effect and I often think about how refreshing that is when many others wear all nighters and stress as badges of honour


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## karelpsota (Nov 11, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Did you collect any data to arrive at the conclusion that you actually get a workout effect from this? I'd be very interested, because my ability to focus seems to only go down over time.



I track everything I do over many years on my computer using an app called "Cold Turkey Blocker". I also have a timer on Audio Hi-Jack, so I can tell how much time I've been on a project.

There's a lot of variables to truly track if those focus sprints increased mental stamina. Diet, physical shape, age, circadian rhythm, interest in the task...

I do feel like I can work longer hours, and the complexity is higher.
My willingness to do it is a bit lower though 

The brain is definitely a muscle. It's just harder to visualize how it works.
I highly recommend the book "Deep Work" by Cal Newport, if that something that interest you.


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## karelpsota (Nov 11, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I think there can be a lot of value in the no-time-for-overthinking challenges. But I don't think you need to add sleep deprivation to get that benefit.



Alcohol and weed are an alternative solution haha!

I'm sure it's achievable without anything, but I haven't figured it out.
Magic always happens before the deadline for some reason!


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## christianobermaier (Nov 11, 2020)

Been there, got the job done, didn't particularly like it. However, there's something about that state of sleep deprivation combined with deadline pressure which lets me get more adventurous and ignore my inner inhibitions that has led to some nice music.

With zero interaction with the outside world, I tended towards a 20 hours awake (with the last 10 hours highly focused for work) and 10 hours sleep cycle. This works perfectly fine if I'm alone.

However, that is not sustainable in a household with three kids. Then the madness on the floors above my head needs to subside before I can begin to really dive into a rabbit hole of any kind which is between 21:00 and 2:00, then get some sleep til 7:00, get the rugrats ready for school and kindergarten, then some lighter work from 8:00 to 12:00 until all hell breaks loose again and I'm back to fixing bicycle bells and butterfly earrings.


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## Gingerbread (Nov 11, 2020)

I guess I'd draw a distinction between "working all night because that's when I'm most productive, but still getting decent sleep during off-hours" vs. "working around the clock, no sleep".

I've done both in my 20s and 30s. I refuse to do the latter anymore. Sleep is important, and working without it just ends up being counter-productive anyway.


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## Greg (Nov 11, 2020)

Zero. I try to set up my time so worst case scenario means waking up stupidly early. Find that my brain can handle that much better and can trust my critical thinking more that way.


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## MartinH. (Nov 11, 2020)

karelpsota said:


> I track everything I do over many years on my computer using an app called "Cold Turkey Blocker". I also have a timer on Audio Hi-Jack, so I can tell how much time I've been on a project.
> 
> There's a lot of variables to truly track if those focus sprints increased mental stamina. Diet, physical shape, age, circadian rhythm, interest in the task...
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for the recommendations, I'll check them out! Though I fear the first thing I'd need to block in Cold Turkey Blocker would be VI:C :D

It's good to hear you've collected solid data on how your ability to do "deep work" improved over time. Maybe there is still hope for me...


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## method1 (Nov 11, 2020)

every.damn.night...

Although mostly fall into the former category... I do still regularly have some horrible deadlines.



Gingerbread said:


> I guess I'd draw a distinction between "working all night because that's when I'm most productive, but still getting decent sleep during off-hours" vs. "working around the clock, no sleep".
> 
> I've done both in my 20s and 30s. I refuse to do the latter anymore. Sleep is important, and working without it just ends up being counter-productive anyway.


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## Robo Rivard (Nov 11, 2020)

My longest "day" was 47 hours in a row, with no sleep or naps. Never again.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 11, 2020)

asherpope said:


> Sorry if I misremembered! I recall you saying something along the lines of "I got into this job because it gave me the freedom to play video games and goof around plus have fun with sounds" or words to that effect and I often think about how refreshing that is when many others wear all nighters and stress as badges of honour



Well, I do goof around and watch cartoons, which is why I wind up staying up till the morning light!


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## Smikes77 (Nov 11, 2020)

I only ask if it has been necessary for you to do it on occasion. At the moment I am 40 hours and getting delirious. Its not something I would recommend but I guess you just gotta slog on. A deadline is a deadline.


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## method1 (Nov 11, 2020)

Smikes77 said:


> I only ask if it has been necessary for you to do it on occasion. At the moment I am 40 hours and getting delirious. Its not something I would recommend but I guess you just gotta slog on. A deadline is a deadline.



Good luck dude, hope its worth it!


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## MartinH. (Nov 11, 2020)

When I get close to a deadline and feel like I'm at risk of needing to crunch, I like to ask my client whether the deadline they gave me was the "life and death deadline" or the "we've had bad experiences with other freelancers and now we always say the deadline is a couple days earlier than it really is". As far as I remember I never missed an important deadline, so they're inclined to give me that extra time if it exists. 





Smikes77 said:


> I only ask if it has been necessary for you to do it on occasion. At the moment I am 40 hours and getting delirious. Its not something I would recommend but I guess you just gotta slog on. A deadline is a deadline.



Jesus! 40 hours... I don't know when the permanent damage starts to set in, but you're getting closer and closer. Good luck!


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## Gingerbread (Nov 11, 2020)

Smikes77 said:


> I only ask if it has been necessary for you to do it on occasion. At the moment I am 40 hours and getting delirious. Its not something I would recommend but I guess you just gotta slog on. A deadline is a deadline.


I realize it's easy for me to say, since I have nothing at stake. But that kind of workload is unsustainable. And if you work for the same client in the future, they'll expect the same work-pace again. Take it for what it's worth, but I've found the best longterm plan is to be realistic with others and myself about what I can realistically accomplish, without killing myself with inadequate rest. If they don't want to work with you again because you have a reasonable schedule, they're probably not clients you'd want to work with longterm anyway.

Again, easy for me to say, but just my two cents.


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## rgames (Nov 11, 2020)

I've found that lack of sleep is almost always bad for creative output for nearly all people across all creative professions. Printing stems or digging ditches or some non-creative process, sure. Not so much an issue.

Now that's not the same as an all-nighter. Waking up at noon after a good rest and working through the night is an all-nighter but is not sleep deprivation.

Managing your time and allowing for good rest will result in much higher-quality creative output. It'll also do great things for your mental and physical health. Of course, sometimes that's not an option.


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## JJP (Nov 11, 2020)

All-nighters are generally bad. They catch up with you when you do it regularly. I know of some of these "superhuman" types who had major health problems or died later in life.

Take care of yourself. It's just music we're making. Nobody's life is depending on it.


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## purple (Nov 11, 2020)

I've only done 2. 1 was for school one was for a gig it wasn't worth it for.


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## JonS (Nov 11, 2020)

charlieclouser said:


> Well, I'm anti-all-nighter for employees, but I routinely pull them. I normally wake up between noon and 2pm, and when I have a gig on I work until about 6am or so, whenever the sun starts to creep in. But that's because I don't have any assistants or interns hanging around, so I can work, stop, eat dinner with the wife, watch cartoons or car restoration shows, basically just do whatever I want as long as the deadlines are met.
> 
> But I enjoy being in the studio for long periods. I don't do any normal old-guy stuff like play golf or whatever, and I don't have any kids to deal with, so I'm in the studio anyway most of the time. Even though I'm 57 it's no problem, I still have plenty of energy and stamina. It's not like it's digging ditches or anything, it's the laziest possible line of work there is, so 14-16 hours is no problem. But I guess that's not really an all-nighter since I sleep until noon, so.....


When doing some tv series it is not uncommon that I regularly do 1-2 all-nighters a week especially when one has to get 42 minutes of music completely composed, spotted, orchestrated, performed, mixed and mastered to picture in 7 days week after week. It's simply about being as productive as possible over and over again in such tight deadlines especially when working alone. These kinds of demanding tv productions leave little time for one to do anything else.


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## chillbot (Nov 11, 2020)

This is an interesting thread.

In my early 20s (mostly at college) I would routinely pull all-nighters, meaning stay up all night and not sleep until the following night. Not because I needed to, per se, but just because I could and I was so into the music I wanted to. Easy to bounce back from.

In my 30s I could no longer pull an all-nighter, and haven't since. I did one time, played poker all night, hit up starbucks at 5am when they opened, and teed off at 6am. So fun but wrecked for a week.

In my 40s I consider an "all-nighter" to be when I work until 3am and crash on the couch for a couple hours and back at it. I've done this a number of times but it wrecks me for a good week. In my 40s I also find (semi-related) that hangovers last two days instead of one. Just not worth it anymore. I should specify that 3am is super late for me... I'm an early riser by nature.

But I do miss being able to do it when I was younger.

I have a list of goals for my 40s and one of them is to try to pull off the all-night poker and golf in the morning again, not sure if it will happen.

Anyway age is a big factor in this, at least for me. I agree with what most people have said here, which is that productivity greatly benefits from sleep, making the all-nighter a useless endeavor (for me).

EDIT: By the way have some kids in your 30s and then talk about all-nighters... that's a whole different story! Sleep for an hour... wake for two... sleep for two hours.. wake for one.. do that for months on end...


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## jmauz (Nov 11, 2020)

When I was in college I'd be up for days at a time. There were never enough hours in the day. Classes all day, homework, woodshedding, goin' out to see live music, gigs, recording sessions (they were always from 8pm-4am) and dorm hangs (i.e. beer drinking/pot smoking, listening to Jazz and playing cribbage against the nerds at MIT). Next thing I know the sun is up.

Ahhhh memories.

I certainly can't do that anymore.

For me it's not about wether or not I'm up all night long (it happens often since I'm nocturnal by nature). All I do is ensure that the work gets done and then I find time to rest. If I need to work for 14-16 hours then I'll do that, but I'll also make sure I get at least 8 hours' sleep afterwards.

It comes down to time management and for me that means keeping a very detailed schedule and daily 'to-do' lists. I've found that as long as I adhere to this method I always make deadlines and still maintain healthy amounts of rest. Granted other things in life sometimes take a backseat (exercise, hobbies, time spent with the wife) but for me it's about work, sleep, and everything else...in that order. 

Yes I'm a workaholic but so is my wife...and we have no kids...so it works.


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## mikeh-375 (Nov 12, 2020)

I did quite a few all-nighters and dayers. The worst for me was being on 3 different time zones and sometimes having to take calls whenever they where scheduled, not to mention emergency change calls that often came in right in the middle of another deadline.
After an all-nighter, sleep didn't always come easy as the music I'd been doing for the past 24hours would not leave me alone.


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## charlieclouser (Nov 12, 2020)

JonS said:


> When doing some tv series it is not uncommon that I regularly do 1-2 all-nighters a week especially when one has to get 42 minutes of music completely composed, spotted, orchestrated, performed, mixed and mastered to picture in 7 days week after week. It's simply about being as productive as possible over and over again in such tight deadlines especially when working alone. These kinds of demanding tv productions leave little time for one to do anything else.



Yeah, I definitely pulled a few all-nighters when I had one 42-minute series that mixed on Monday+Tuesday and another that mixed on Tuesday+Wednesday, and both aired on Friday! At least I didn't have to be on the dub stage, but my music editor who did both shows definitely learned how to juggle AND tap-dance for about six years....

... there are few things quite so terrifying as seeing the "next week on..." teaser on CBS on a Friday night, and seeing scenes that you hadn't scored yet!


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## Saxer (Nov 12, 2020)

I had all nighters until my thirties. Mostly combinations of studio- or arranging work and live gigs. It ended in a sudden hearing loss when I was 40 after the last live gig before x-mas season.

After that I decided that "being effective" isn't my goal of life. My musical taste changed. Because of the hearing loss I couldn't stand hard kicks and snares any more. So I moved towards orchestral, chillout and acoustic jazz.

I discovered that I am faster when I work slowly. I compare it to a turtle. If you take a turtle outside in your garden and set it down on the lawn it starts to move sooo slooowly. On step. Rest. Another step. So slow. Then you go inside to get a coffee. On the way the phone rings and you answer. Coming back to the garden the turtle is gone. Nowhere to find. After a while you see it far away leaving neighbors garden on the opposite side.

I work from home (except live gigs - so very few this year) and I don't have a time grid. I work until 6am if I like to or start at 6am a few days later. As long as I sleep enough and my ears have time to recover I'm fine. One of the greatest advantage of forums like this: they are absolutely quiet!


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## rnieto (Nov 12, 2020)

I've done more all-nighters than I care to remember. 

The worst sustained period was in 2010, for about 2 months, when I was scoring two games during the day and editing music for another composer's game at night. I would get the stems from the music mixer at midnight and edit until 8 am, in time to upload everything to a server so the clients could listen to the finished work at 9 am sharp every morning, when I would start my own day of scoring.

My worst "all-nighter" was mixing a movie that was to be premiered at a film festival, so it had a crazy locked delivery deadline. I had to mix for 52 hours straight, taking 15 minute naps every few hours. I finished the mix by using the LUFS meter and spectral analyzers to keep things in check, since my ears were totally fried.

I don't recommend doing that stuff. I probably cut my life short by 5 years because of it.

Nowadays, I tend to work 10-12 hours a day, so it's not too bad anymore.


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## AdamKmusic (Nov 12, 2020)

Not done any all nighters yet, when I was working on a live show a couple years back I would do like 8am - 10pm a couple of the days which was pretty tiring!


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## Uiroo (Nov 12, 2020)

I recently had a 24 hour deadline and ended up working 17 of those 24 hours, the rest was eating and sleep etc., I was awake for pretty much 24 hours. Maybe not an all nighter, don't know.

But I definitely felt the damage done (while being only 27), but I also know pretty well what happens when you deprive yourself form sleep.

Why We Sleep From Matthew Walker is a Book I'm not getting tired of recommending:


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## christianobermaier (Nov 12, 2020)

Saxer said:


> I am faster when I work slowly.


This is pure gold.


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## AlexRuger (Nov 12, 2020)

Saxer said:


> I had all nighters until my thirties. Mostly combinations of studio- or arranging work and live gigs. It ended in a sudden hearing loss when I was 40 after the last live gig before x-mas season.



Suffered a case of SHL in one ear a couple of years ago during a period of _very_ intense stress. Had to take a round of steroids to save the ear from deafness, and it's never been the same. I have a -30dB dip at 6k, among other problems. 

Whatever I was doing that led to that definitely wasn't worth it.


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## MA-Simon (Nov 12, 2020)

Well, I do not see something wrong with allnighters. if you are creative and feel like you are in your flow, why stop?


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## Virtuoso (Nov 12, 2020)

Pretty much every single project for me involves multiple all-nighters. I work far better at night anyway, when there are no other distractions.


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## DS_Joost (Nov 16, 2020)

Never. I never write for longer than 4 hours a day, anyway. However, it's the reason I've bounced hard off of television and movies. Honestly, all this shit sounds the same for me anyway. I regularly pull my eyes up at television music. It's all so, been there, done that for me. Sorry guys, but most movie music and television music is absolute shite disguised with high production values. It does nothing for me anymore. I'm tired of Hollywood. I'm tired of Hans Zimmer. I'm tired of John Williams. Not because they aren't good, they're great, fantastic composers. But everything sounds like them or a mix between them. At least in television. Like Eno said, the way we compose music and try to control the way people feel at every single moment, it's ''fucking pathetic''.

However, more importantly, the reason is that I love music, and I love discovery in music. New things. New styles, new blends. There's a reason Kitaro is one of my favourite composers, along with Michael Stearns. I want to keep it that way. This is not a jab at some of you, at all. But seeing how some of you work, there would be no faster way to drain me from my love of music.

I don't care about being famous. I don't care about being a top-tier composer. I care about making the music I want when I want it.

I've lots of time for it, because my girlfriend and I both work 24 hours a week (I work at my local library as surveillance, most relaxing job ever, and pays pretty good). I value free time. A lot. Learned to get around with less income. Best decision ever. Of course, this is not possible everywhere. But where I'm from (Holland), this is certainly an option. I feel extremely lucky in that regard. It's not that hard either, and I sure still have enough budget for the studio.

My girlfriend once made the best comment I could've ever gotten, and I will never forget it because it gave me so much strength and reassurance. And it was simply this:

''I don't care if you make money with it. I want you to keep doing it. Invest in it. Because it is your passion. It's not about money. It's about making something beautiful, and you are making beautiful music.''

I'm highly against the suffering artist idea. I think it's idiotic, stupid, and pure self-sabotage. These are strong words, I know. But honestly, like someone said before me, it's music, just music, man. Looking at Vangelis, and how he makes albums whenever he wants, however he wants, changed my idea of what music means to me. So, long story short, I will never pull an all-nighter unless it's because of my own willing because I'm too enthusiastic to sleep!

That said, I do regularly have all night benders, hahaI'm a night owl, day sleeper. So no problem with that.

Edit: sorry for the personal rant. I love y'all, keep doing what you love!


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## AudioLoco (Nov 17, 2020)

80% of the last 20 years


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## nglez (Nov 17, 2020)

Personally I flat out refuse any inquires for jobs that will require an all nighter, it's just not worth it for me anymore. I've pulled all nighters in the past. I feel exploited when I do them. The money you get payed will most likely not make up for the damage it can cause. Not to talk about the toll it takes on your family around you. No money will fix your broken relationship with your partner or kid. It is also important to understand that they are mentally and physically extremely unhealthy and can lead to a lot of chronic diseases if done too often. This is why some countries have very specific laws about worker's pay depending on the schedule. No series or movie, game, trailer, commercial is worth chronic heart diseases, depression etc especially nowadays where a lot of this stuff is irrelevant and will end up dumped somewhere on a streaming platform. 


Sometimes I feel like, as composers we are at the bottom of the totem pole and for some reason we are brainwashed into thinking, "this is how it is", "never say no" "get the job done no matter what" blabla, oftentimes even bragging about it and proud that we were able to pull an all nighter to meet the deadline. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be professional and reliable, but let's put things into perspective, we are usually talking about some artistically irrelevant piece of media that will be forgotten within a week, for shitty pay. Is that really worth it? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Low pay, tight deadlines, no recognition, seriously, for what? So that we can call each other a media composer?

Anyways I'm not in a good mood today, sorry about my ranting!


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## AudioLoco (Nov 17, 2020)

I really enjoy it actually. Sometimes it is exhausting and I have done 20+++ hours straight to meet a deadline more then once. Also I don't have to deal with all those zombies in the outside world too much...  
It is true that it's a bummer that it is EXPECTED from us, but most of us keep going until it's as close as we can get to what we have in our head. Smoothing out a few velocity curves, modifing a couple of lines, until the sun comes out. So probably it is also our fault for not settelling. I also work better often with a clear deadline, my head is somewhat clearer, and I make faster decisions.


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## nglez (Nov 17, 2020)

AudioLoco said:


> I really enjoy it actually. Sometimes it is exhausting and I have done 20+++ hours straight to meet a deadline more then once. Also I don't have to deal with all those zombies in the outside world too much...
> It is true that it's a bummer that it is EXPECTED from us, but most of us keep going until it's as close as we can get to what we have in our head. Smoothing out a few velocity curves, modifing a couple of lines, until the sun comes out. So probably it is also our fault for not settelling. I also work better often with a clear deadline, my head is somewhat clearer, and I make faster decisions.



Yes, I totally understand, I will also squeeze out every second to perfect my product. I think there's nothing wrong with that as long as you are ok and it is your personal choice. And yes deadlines are important, I'm not against them, of course they are necessary! What I have a problem with is when it is expected from you from the get go. And what I dislike is a sort of weird glorification of this way of working by other peers (not necessarily in this thread but other people I know).


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## JonS (Nov 17, 2020)

nglez said:


> Personally I flat out refuse any inquires for jobs that will require an all nighter, it's just not worth it for me anymore. I've pulled all nighters in the past. I feel exploited when I do them. The money you get payed will most likely not make up for the damage it can cause. Not to talk about the toll it takes on your family around you. No money will fix your broken relationship with your partner or kid. It is also important to understand that they are mentally and physically extremely unhealthy and can lead to a lot of chronic diseases if done too often. This is why some countries have very specific laws about worker's pay depending on the schedule. No series or movie, game, trailer, commercial is worth chronic heart diseases, depression etc especially nowadays where a lot of this stuff is irrelevant and will end up dumped somewhere on a streaming platform.
> 
> 
> Sometimes I feel like, as composers we are at the bottom of the totem pole and for some reason we are brainwashed into thinking, "this is how it is", "never say no" "get the job done no matter what" blabla, oftentimes even bragging about it and proud that we were able to pull an all nighter to meet the deadline. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be professional and reliable, but let's put things into perspective, we are usually talking about some artistically irrelevant piece of media that will be forgotten within a week, for shitty pay. Is that really worth it? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Low pay, tight deadlines, no recognition, seriously, for what? So that we can call each other a media composer?
> ...


There is a simple solution to this: Demand more money before the job begins so you can hire a staff so you don’t have to work such absurd hours. If they refuse to pay that much then don’t take the job.


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## JT (Nov 17, 2020)

I was working on a theatrical production for about a month, I was about 40. The last 10 days were brutal. One night I slept for 2 hours, the next night just one hour. I repeated that pattern for 10 days. It almost killed me.


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## Gerbil (Nov 17, 2020)

I had a massive seizure in my 20s that put paid to my late nighters. The docs thought it was caused by sleep deprivation and booze so I've been guarded against putting in long shifts over a number of days ever since.


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## Karl Feuerstake (Nov 17, 2020)

Gerbil said:


> I had a massive seizure in my 20s that put paid to my late nighters. The docs thought it was caused by sleep deprivation and booze so I've been guarded against putting in long shifts over a number of days ever since.



I very recently suffered something similar (and am in my 20s); gonna be paying a lot more attention to my mental health in the future. Was most likely related to sleep deprivation pushing past the 30hr mark and also related to cannabis, instead of booze. Wasn't really a seizure, more of a mental decline culminating in a nervous breakdown / panic attack; but I did fall over and strike my head too, which didn't do me any good.


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## PeterN (Nov 17, 2020)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I very recently suffered something similar (and am in my 20s); gonna be paying a lot more attention to my mental health in the future. Was most likely related to sleep deprivation pushing past the 30hr mark and also related to cannabis, instead of booze. Wasn't really a seizure, more of a mental decline culminating in a nervous breakdown / panic attack; but I did fall over and strike my head too, which didn't do me any good.



Dont worry. Every great composer shall be mentally fucked in 20s. This is a good sign.


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## Thomas Costantino (Jan 21, 2022)

When I first decided to go full throttle with music, my living situation forced me to look into a commercial studio space. At the time, the only thing I could afford was an 800 SF office under a the Landlords real estate office. It had its own entrance in the back with a closed off stairway to his place. At the time I thought it was amazing to finally have my own private place to make music !

Unfortunately I was sidetracked by the idea of my own spot. I didn’t take into account that mere ceiling tiles and one layer of flooring separated me from two tenants above. Low an behold, a few noise complaints later, I had no choice but to start my day when theirs ended. 5pm turned into morning. 9am tuned into bedtime. For two years, all-nighters became the norm. I was a permanent night shift Composer.

It was a wild time. I felt like an alien on earth compared to everyone around me. At first it was a cool feeling as life felt like an adventure: sleeping on the office floor, eating and showering wherever possible. I developed a true ‘ Whatever it takes mentality ‘ ( which emanates in every decision I make till this day ). But this lifestyle- and some other bad habits- also came at the cost of some health problems. Ask any night shift Cop. Over time it can erode everything that makes you feel human. I don’t regret the times, but I wish I was smarter about my decisions.

With that being said, I still feel like there’s a magic to creating at night.


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## Jeremy Gillam (Jan 21, 2022)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Only once. Had both university assignments to finish and a score to mix with a very short deadline.
> 
> Plenty of sleepless nights not working though. Had one just 2 nights ago where I was thinking about the speakers I've been designing and couldn't sleep.


I know that particular brand of insomnia. I call it signal flow insomnia.


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## jononotbono (Jan 21, 2022)

Get some sleep.


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## Arbee (Jan 21, 2022)

Only once. The state government called a snap election and I was called on to write and record an orchestral and choral series of ads to be on air by "lunch time tomorrow". We recorded the orchestra from midnight, the choir at 4am, had a shower and mixed at 7.00am. Then I went and did a regular recording session once it was all finished. Oh to be young again 😄


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## KEM (Jan 21, 2022)

Because of music? Well, never, mostly because I’m not a professional composer yet. But how many times have I pulled an all nighter because I’m a kid with ADHD? Too many to count lol, I think the longest I stayed up was 36 hours, I then proceeded to sleep for 20 hours lol


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## Orchestrata (Jan 21, 2022)

I've always liked working through the night; it's quiet and there are fewer distractions. I always get a solid morning-to-early afternoon sleep in afterwards, though. I do it less now as I approach my 40s but some of my best work and deepest focus has happened at 3am.


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