# Forzo vs. Hollywood Brass



## erica-grace (Aug 26, 2018)

This is far from complete, and it's only the horns, but I wanted to see what the two sounded like side by side.

First we have HB, followed by Forzo.

To be fair, I added a little bit of reverb (spaces: nw hall) to HB. I used the Main and Surr mics. For the last note of HB, I dragged down the modwheel to simulate the port in Forzo.

For Forzo, I used the full mix.

The first and last phrases have the modwheel at 127 for both.

The staccato notes were all at 127 velocity.

Curious to know what everyone else thinks.

EDIT

Here are the Trombones:



See below for descrip


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 26, 2018)

hmmm... the hollywood brass examples are quite a bit louder and also a bit more dry than forzo so that has some influence, but i personally like hollywood brass better. maybe only because iam used to the sound now since i got hb diamond like 2 month ago


----------



## jon wayne (Aug 26, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> This is far from complete, and it's only the horns, but I wanted to see what the two sounded like side by side.
> 
> First we have HB, followed by Forzo.
> 
> ...



When you wonder which is which, it makes you wonder why the hoopla!


----------



## jneebz (Aug 26, 2018)

12 horn section (Forza) vs. 6 horn section (HWB) may not be the best comparison?


----------



## keepitsimple (Aug 26, 2018)

In the second example they both sound almost identical. 

In the first and third examples, HB seems to have more definition and "pixels" per say, hence FZ sounded as if you tamed its sound with a towel, the same way you engage the soft pedal on the piano if you know what i mean. 

In all examples though, my pick is HB.


----------



## erica-grace (Aug 26, 2018)

MarcelM said:


> hmmm... the hollywood brass examples are quite a bit louder



Yes and no. HB has more top end, and more of a biting type sound, which makes it seem louder. The mp part is the same, tho.

Nonetheless, I have upped a new version with some slight volume changes.


----------



## erica-grace (Aug 26, 2018)

jneebz said:


> 12 horn section (Forza) vs. 6 horn section (HWB) may not be the best comparison?



Hey - the libraries are what they are!


----------



## WindcryMusic (Aug 26, 2018)

erica-grace said:


> This is far from complete, and it's only the horns, but I wanted to see what the two sounded like side by side.




Seems like most of the reactions to the Forzo horns here have been not too dissimilar to mine, as expressed here:

Heavyocity Forzo Modern Brass

Even though I don’t have HB to compare to, using the libraries I do have, I find the Forzo horns to be fine but not really better than the alternatives I have on hand (SSO, CB and MA). And I mentioned that I thought Forzo’s horns have a little less detail than the others, too. I think the same can be said of this comparison (in fact I’m surprised at how difficult it is to distinguish between the two on the softer parts).

But, as I said in the linked review, my impression is that the strength of Forzo is in the trombones, where I felt that it outshone everything I have except MA1 (and certainly has more capacity for soft playing than does MA1, of course). It might be interesting to hear a similar comparison to HB, using trombones instead?


----------



## constaneum (Aug 26, 2018)

from the comparison, hollywood brass sounds brighter and more brassy than Forzo


----------



## MarcelM (Aug 26, 2018)

@erica-grace so you kinda regret the purchase of forzo ?


----------



## Parsifal666 (Aug 26, 2018)

Brass all day. Forzo seems unnecessary imo.

Geez, something well over a decade old holding up just fine against a brand new library. Tells us something.


----------



## erica-grace (Aug 26, 2018)

MarcelM said:


> @erica-grace so you kinda regret the purchase of forzo ?



No way!

But as WCry said, the HB horns are edgier, and more detailed.


----------



## erica-grace (Aug 26, 2018)

WindcryMusic said:


> It might be interesting to hear a similar comparison to HB, using trombones instead?



Here it is:



I had to use the Contrabass trombone from Forzo for the last two notes in the longs, because the trombones do not go down that low.

HB is, by design, two tenor trombones and a bass trombone in unison. There is no separating them.

In the first HB trombone part, I inserted marcato. Forzo does not have marcato, much to my utter disappointment, so it was longs only. Gives it a nice accordion feel. 

The last part is the same as the first part, but I took down the modwheel in HB a bit, to get closer to Forzo.


----------



## erica-grace (Aug 26, 2018)

constaneum said:


> from the comparison, hollywood brass sounds brighter and more brassy than Forzo


 
Yes, definitely.


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Aug 26, 2018)

Forzo sounds a bit thicker to my ears, obviously not as growly, edgy...also Forzo for edge on longs needs a different art with or combined as it's longs are not growly.

The Bones and Tubas and non standard arts is where Forzo stands out.


----------



## Guido Negraszus (Aug 26, 2018)

A few month ago I deleted most of my East West libraries to gain some extra HD space. Just barely ever used it because I have so many other libraries. Except HW brass and woodwinds. The sample above shows why.


----------



## Cinebient (Aug 26, 2018)

Hard to compare since i find the room presence are so different. 
HB sounds indeed a bit more bright but i prefer the Forzo more darker but more immersive tone.


----------



## NoamL (Aug 26, 2018)

This reinforces my impression from DJ's video (@1:20)



that the library doesn't have much dynamic range, specifically the horns. If HWB sounds "louder" or "brighter" or "growlier" than Forzo it's because they're not performing the same music! At CC1=127, Hollywood Brass plays _ff_ while the Forzo horns top out at _f _or so. Sample for sample, I think the room Forzo was recorded is really flattering for brass, and out of the box therefore Forzo sounds better. Room is so important for brass samples and the ones recorded in great rooms, like Forzo or Berlin Brass, sound amazing. But my worry using it would be running into that dynamic ceiling. If you really want and need the top dynamics, I think Cinebrass, Trailer Brass and Hollywood Brass all top out at _ff_ with Trailer Brass perhaps going even farther!


----------



## Brendon Williams (Aug 26, 2018)

Thanks for doing this! Always interesting to compare new libraries to the classics. Hollywood Brass is one of the oldest of the main modern brass libraries, yet it's still extremely tough to beat. There's a reason it's remained a key part of my template for so long!


----------



## Eptesicus (Aug 27, 2018)

The brass is the best of the all the Hollywood Orchestra stuff.

It does indeed still sound great.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Aug 27, 2018)

Eptesicus said:


> The brass is the best of the all the Hollywood Orchestra stuff.
> 
> It does indeed still sound great.



I so love the 6 French Horns! But I should mention, if you want out of the box Epic, Ark 1 is hard to resist. In fact, many feel the Brass is the best part of that library (I have to nudge in the Choirs as well).


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 27, 2018)

The comparison just shows me one thing: You don´t need to buy Forzo Brass when you have Hollywood brass. Sure..forzo brass sounds also nice and I don´t think hollywood brass is better in that examples but it shows for just that thing, that you can still use such an old library like HWB and practically it is of a very similiar if not the same quality like a 2018 product.

Regarding the brightness and stuff: The Horns in HWB have just louder recorded Forte Dynamic layers, I guess like FF, maybe even Triple Forte. I barely write for horns and reach that top layer, just for very special ocassions. Most of the time to keep musicality mezzoforte at best forte to is good.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 27, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> The comparison just shows me one thing: You don´t need to buy Forzo Brass when you have Hollywood brass. Sure..forzo brass sounds also nice and I don´t think hollywood brass is better in that examples but it shows for just that thing, that you can still use such an old library like HWB and practically it is of a very similiar if not the same quality like a 2018 product.
> 
> Regarding the brightness and stuff: The Horns in HWB have just louder recorded Forte Dynamic layers, I guess like FF, maybe even Triple Forte. I barely write for horns and reach that top layer, just for very special ocassions. Most of the time to keep musicality mezzoforte at best forte to is good.


And HWB is on sale now. 

Thank you @erica-grace that was indeed an eye/ear opening exercise.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Aug 27, 2018)

I think I'd be most be surprised if I read someone whom already owned Ark 1 chose to buy Forzo . From what I've heard and read, this is like a fortissimo and above library...geez, Ark kind of covered that, in spades.

That said, I'm not entirely sure how wet Forzo is, and am first to admit the baked in reverb of Ark 1 hardly works for every loud brass part.


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 27, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> And HWB is on sale now.
> 
> Thank you @erica-grace that was indeed an eye/ear opening exercise.



Oh really? Cool! 



Parsifal666 said:


> I think I'd be most be surprised if I read someone whom already owned Ark 1 chose to buy Forzo . From what I've heard and read, this is like a fortissimo and above library...geez, Ark kind of covered that, in spades.
> 
> That said, I'm not entirely sure how wet Forzo is, and am first to admit the baked in reverb of Ark 1 hardly works for every loud brass part.



MA1 kicks ass, most brutal brass yet detailed library imo when it comes to epic stuff.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Aug 27, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Oh really? Cool!
> 
> 
> 
> MA1 kicks ass, most brutal brass yet detailed library imo when it comes to epic stuff.



You are easy to agree with 

That brass is just the_* bomb*_. However, EWH more than does the trick overall when it comes to ensembles imo. I know dissenters will hate (some people can't shake the erroneous stigma of "old libraries") but to me it's true. You could conceivably pass on the Hollywood Woodwinds, and even perhaps Symphonic Choirs Platinum (look at the competition for the latter, especially from Strezov). However, I can't recommend strongly enough for every novice to vi composition to get ahold of and become as familiar as possible with EWH Brass and Strings. They are still flippin' great libraries.

Again, all just my very humble opinion, nothing more.


----------



## Eptesicus (Aug 27, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> You are easy to agree with
> 
> That brass is just the_* bomb*_. However, EWH more than does the trick overall when it comes to ensembles imo. I know dissenters will hate (some people can't shake the erroneous stigma of "old libraries") but to me it's true. You could conceivably pass on the Hollywood Woodwinds, and even perhaps Symphonic Choirs Platinum (look at the competition for the latter, especially from Strezov). However, I can't recommend strongly enough for every novice to vi composition to get ahold of and become as familiar as possible with EWH Brass and Strings. They are still flippin' great libraries.
> 
> Again, all just my very humble opinion, nothing more.



Indeed. Sound wise they are brilliant. I do however find the play engine, and the way East West does things in terms of UI/keyswitches cumbersome compared to more modern kontakt libraries.


----------



## Brian Nowak (Aug 27, 2018)

I'm just kind of wondering why anybody would buy a brass sound design library, with aleatoric phrases, clusters, pitch bends, etc. and then compare it to a traditional brass library. 

Yes, there are traditional techniques as well. But even the walkthrough - the whole opening of the showcase piece is experimental and extended techniques in every patch.

If that doesn't "do it" for you then it's not going to be your kind of party. I would actually snap this up ONLY for those particular sounds but I take pause because I have Metropolis Ark 3, which already has clusters, crescendos/decrescendos, and I can kind of approximate the results to a degree. 

But even then, if somebody is doing the type of underscore and tension material that these types of sounds and textures work well for, this library is going to be v their BFF.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Aug 27, 2018)

Eptesicus said:


> Indeed. Sound wise they are brilliant. I do however find the play engine, and the way East West does things in terms of UI/keyswitches cumbersome compared to more modern kontakt libraries.



The Play engine I view as a necessary evil. I must add that it has improved more than a little over the years. Still, I prefer Kontakt overall. Capsule has also proven a worthy alternative to Play, at least for me.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 27, 2018)

Brian Nowak said:


> I'm just kind of wondering why anybody would buy a brass sound design library, with aleatoric phrases, clusters, pitch bends, etc. and then compare it to a traditional brass library.
> 
> Yes, there are traditional techniques as well. But even the walkthrough - the whole opening of the showcase piece is experimental and extended techniques in every patch.
> 
> ...


Yep. They aren’t trying to cover the same ground. I’d say from what I’ve heard that Forzo does soft/quiet brass very well but that is only half(?) of it’s intended purpose.


----------



## Brian Nowak (Aug 27, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Yep. They aren’t trying to cover the same ground. I’d say from what I’ve heard that Forzo does soft/quiet brass very well but that is only half(?) of it’s intended purpose.



All that said, I have seen the hype train chugging through the station on this one. The number of times I've seen "best sounding brass library" or "replacing all my go to brass" has definitely given me a chuckle or two.

I think it does sound good, mind you. And the experimental stuff certainly is cool. Though the inherent issue with those pre-recorded baked in textures is: anybody who buys it can push that button and get very close to the button-pushing sound you just made.

Which means a lot of those really unique sounds are going to have a bit of a half life on their overall usability. Especially as people buy, en masse, their ticket to board the hype train.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Aug 27, 2018)

Brian Nowak said:


> I think it does sound good, mind you. And the experimental stuff certainly is cool. Though the inherent issue with those pre-recorded baked in textures is: anybody who buys it can push that button and get very close to the button-pushing sound you just made.



You know, I had my own issues/initial discomfort concerning phrase and phrase-ish samples; however, from what I've experienced, context is everything here. If one is relying on a particular phrase to carry a composition, then it is quite likely someone else had that idea, and folks might think you're an unoriginal mummy. However, if one already has a strong project/layers surrounding the phrase, that changes_ *every*_thing.

I remember when I asked (I think it was Zero G) about using their samples baldly, they were very helpful in emphasizing that the samples had to be accompanied. I didn't like the answer at first, and kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater in rejecting phrase samples for a time.

Then I found out on my own how much could be _done_ with arrangements including the samples; that in fact those very same phrase samples were best used as part of a tapestry, thus mostly negating (or at least making shadier) the recycle factor.

I could be wrong, especially when it comes to others' (perfectly valid) experiences.


----------



## Brian Nowak (Aug 27, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> You know, I had my own issues/initial discomfort concerning phrase and phrase-ish samples; however, from what I've experienced, context is everything here. If one is relying on a particular phrase to carry a composition, then it is quite likely someone else had that idea, and folks might think you're an unoriginal mummy. However, if one already has a strong project/layers surrounding the phrase, that changes_ *every*_thing.
> 
> I remember when I asked (I think it was Zero G) about using their samples baldly, they were very helpful in emphasizing that the samples had to be accompanied. I didn't like the answer at first, and kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater in rejecting phrase samples for a time.



Oh there's definitely many shades here, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. And even in the case of baldly using a sample - Hell, the famous Amen Break is used ad nauseam.

Yes, for background and middle ground you can get away with exceedingly more. But my statement is also one of context. I guarantee you library, and specifically trailer composers, will abuse these patches into the dirt, and will do so with innovative alacrity. Hahaha!


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 27, 2018)

Brian Nowak said:


> All that said, I have seen the hype train chugging through the station on this one. The number of times I've seen "best sounding brass library" or "replacing all my go to brass" has definitely given me a chuckle or two.
> 
> I think it does sound good, mind you. And the experimental stuff certainly is cool. Though the inherent issue with those pre-recorded baked in textures is: anybody who buys it can push that button and get very close to the button-pushing sound you just made.
> 
> Which means a lot of those really unique sounds are going to have a bit of a half life on their overall usability. Especially as people buy, en masse, their ticket to board the hype train.


I think you’re right, there’s a fair degree of hype; enough to peak my interest so that I’m checking it closely after initially dismissing it as something I didn’t need. My take on it after reading comments from users and trying to calculate the consensus position, it seems that it’s a good option as an add on if you have basic brass covered. It offers extensions to a solid base. 

As I go on, I’m moving back towards not needing it but that’s me and it’s based on the tools I have available already. I can understand the attraction and I’ve only ever been extremely happy with libraries from Heavy.


----------



## Cinebient (Aug 27, 2018)

I really like the tone of Forzo but what it sets apart others for me is the engine, GUI and workflow. 
I hate most of these tiny Kontakt GUI‘s but NOVO and FORZO are great here. 
The extended script in FORZO (compared to NOVO) is great as well. 
If they do something similar for woodwinds and choir in the future i would be happy.
I also guess we see a few FORZO expansions as well in the future.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Aug 27, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> I think you’re right, there’s a fair degree of hype; enough to peak my interest so that I’m checking it closely after initially dismissing it as something I didn’t need. My take on it after reading comments from users and trying to calculate the consensus position, it seems that it’s a good option as an add on if you have basic brass covered. It offers extensions to a solid base.
> 
> As I go on, I’m moving back towards not needing it but that’s me and it’s based on the tools I have available already. I can understand the attraction and I’ve only ever been extremely happy with libraries from Heavy.



BIG fan of Damage, unfortunately that's an example of a library we've heard a lot of. It's just _so_ easy for me to find a killer, monster sound with Damage...and that seems to go for everybody else as well lol.


----------



## CT (Aug 27, 2018)

Eptesicus said:


> Indeed. Sound wise they are brilliant. I do however find the play engine, and the way East West does things in terms of UI/keyswitches cumbersome compared to more modern kontakt libraries.



This is what holds me back, even during a 50% off sale, from what *might* be a really worthwhile investment. 

The articulation structure, I can get over. But I can't afford, even at sale prices, to end up with unusable libraries due to power-hungry engines.


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 27, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I think I'd be most be surprised if I read someone whom already owned Ark 1 chose to buy Forzo . From what I've heard and read, this is like a fortissimo and above library...geez, Ark kind of covered that, in spades.
> 
> That said, I'm not entirely sure how wet Forzo is, and am first to admit the baked in reverb of Ark 1 hardly works for every loud brass part.


To me, Forzo sounds darker and rounder than Ark I. (I do very much like the a9 horns in Ark.) Forzo also sounds far more versatile at modest dynamic levels than Ark I. From the way Forzo is being marketed as massive epic brass, that may well count as a flaw since it doesn't seem to deliver completely over-the-top the way some other libraries do. Still, everyone seems to agree that the trombones are the gem in this library.


----------



## Consona (Aug 27, 2018)

Every time some great looking new brass library shows up and I feel I should or even need to buy it, I load any CineBrass patch to remind me I actually don't need anything new at all. I don't have the EW Hollywood stuff, but I'd bet it's quite the similar thing. Some of these classic libraries are so good they are more than enough for anything orchestral you'll ever compose. The only exception being the super playable sample modeling instruments that can do some things these can't. But otherwise, so much money saved and nothing missed.

I know spending money is good for the industry so the companies can make new things, but some of these "older" libraries are so good I just don't need anything new. So the next brass library I'll buy, if ever, is most probably going to be Hollywood Brass.  I mean, for $520 you can have the fricking whole diamond!!! EW orchestral collection of strings, brass, winds and percs!!!


----------



## quantum7 (Aug 27, 2018)

I still use my “ancient” Cinebrass libraries and find they still do quite well in 2018. Do the newer brass libs really get you that much more?


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Aug 27, 2018)

What I like on Forzo is that it has a full sound not yet too brassy on the top layer. When I got Hollywood brass back in 2012 or something I loved that brass over the top sound and nowadays I think that is nothing which you normally (should) do and hitting constanly that double forte layer. It is tiring to listen to for my personal taste and not realistic. But time changes preferences I guess. Especially with french horns..all that modern over epic libraries they create imo a false expactation how a horn player ensemble really sounds like and how they do when they perform their stuff..I went a lot to concerts and those very loud brassy blasting horns..are really..for special situations for climax situations, 2 percent of a piece.


----------



## Consona (Aug 27, 2018)

Definitely. But it's nice to push brass into that territory from time to time when a space battle culminates.


----------



## NoamL (Aug 27, 2018)

Brian Nowak said:


> All that said, I have seen the hype train chugging through the station on this one. The number of times I've seen "best sounding brass library" or "replacing all my go to brass" has definitely given me a chuckle or two..



Well the same thing happened with NOVO. Everyone was asking "can this be my main strings library now." 



quantum7 said:


> I still use my “ancient” Cinebrass libraries and find they still do quite well in 2018. Do the newer brass libs really get you that much more?



With strings I like to layer mics from different libraries to create a sound nobody else has. With brass it's more about finding one great performance and not messing with the direct impression of musicianship in that sample. I tried a lot of experiments layering brass libraries and the result is an undifferentiated brick of sound which goes against the whole point of brass in an orchestra... the dynamic variety & power.

I always keep coming back to this clip of @Rctec using one of his private brass libraries



note the TREMENDOUS dynamic range.

So, therefore, in my template now it's all about Gold, Silver and Platinum versus Solo, Ensemble and Huge.

(I'm indebted to @Rodney Money for some of these ideas & also @mverta 's brass master class )

*Solo, Ensemble*, and *Huge* are pretty self explanatory. Solo = a1, Ensemble = typical late-Romantic & Hollywood orchestra ensembles like a2 through a6. Huge = trailer-size ensembles like horns a12.

*Gold* is that warm, smooth blanket of brass that you hear in brass chorales. The cylindrical instruments (trumpet & tbn) have just as much capacity for playing "gold" as the horns and tubas. Until recently it was difficult to find samples that had a golden tone even all the way up to forte, although it's easily achievable in real life. In my head this is "brass when it's played as if it were woodwinds" although I have no idea if that's technically accurate to how brass players think about it 

Some beautiful Gold brass:






*Silver* is an exciting, metallic, edgy, ringing sound with dynamic power and punch. The ideal sound in your head from any John Williams action movie score. It's not just _ff_ but also extending down into tense and exciting _mf_ and even _mp_. So, gold and silver can considerably overlap in dynamics.

Great piece demonstrating dynamic range inside of "silver" playing:




*Platinum* is that crazy, over the top sound created by pushing the instrument past its breaking point. Aggressive energy has transformed into menace and sheer power. All kinds of techniques like cuivre, bells up, fluttertongue, can be used to augment the sound. In trailer scores there is often doubling of the horns with a 2nd pass of muted horns for extra buzz, or of the trombones playing in their high register for even more power.



so in summary, *Gold Silver* and *Platinum* are more like "states of mind" for playing brass instead of dynamics or ensemble sizes.

For "Gold" playing I really like Berlin Brass for Gold-Solo and Gold-Ensemble... significantly more than Hollywood in fact, as the round/warm tone extends further up the dynamic range. It's very expensive though & I'm not sure the purchase has been worth it overall. And then for Gold-Huge the Albion libraries, especially Iceni, are good resources.

Next is "Silver." Adventure Brass is my absolute go-to for Silver-Ensemble writing! For Silver-Solo I use Hollywood.

Last is "Platinum," and here I really like Jasper Blunk's free brass libraries for smaller writing (Platinum-Ensemble). For Platinum-Huge, I use Trailer Brass and the Cinebrass 12Hn patch.

In line with what @AlexanderSchiborr commented, "platinum" playing seems _very _rarely called for in real life orchestral writing. Even in the Rite of Spring there's probably 1:30 total out of 33:00 where the brass are blasting like a 2018 trailer. It must be exhausting to record some of these modern scores.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 27, 2018)

I’m just going to drop Strezov AMS Brass in here too. In case anybody is in the mood to look at brass libraries that extend on a basic brass base. It’s a really neat aleatoric Library which also has straight sustains. It’s probably as close as you can get to playable aleatoric (not so much phrase driven) in samples. Very well thought out. Ensembles, not solos and doesn’t have a12 horns but worth a look imho.

I’d also echo @NoamL above re Berlin Brass. Was going to suggest it as a beautiful sounding lyrical brass Library. It doesn’t quite get to the ear splitting dynamics that “epic” seems to desire these days. I’d also agree it is very expensive and I’m also not sure that at full price it represents good value (well, for someone in my position anyway). To be honest I shudder (maybe shake would have been a better word ) when I look at the price and I got it on release. If it came out today I don’t think I would be getting it as the budget just isn’t there. Again, it sounds beautiful but you can probably cover brass well for less.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Aug 27, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> I’m just going to drop Strezov AMS Brass in here too. In case anybody is in the mood to look at brass libraries that extend on a basic brass base. It’s a really neat aleatoric Library which also has straight sustains. It’s probably as close as you can get to playable aleatoric (not so much phrase driven) in samples. Very well thought out. Ensembles, not solos and doesn’t have a12 horns but worth a look imho.
> 
> I



This interests me. I still use and love Uist.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 27, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> This interests me. I still use and love Uist.


I had Uist on my list (props to Hall and Oates) for a long time and one reason was your testamonials. I've taken it off now as I feel like I have aleatoric covered about as well as I need for now. I have no doubt it's very good (I love my SF libs), but as discussed earlier in the thread (and I note you don't necessarily agree) I often find it difficult to weave phrases into a composition unless I'm starting with them/it and that's not always possible or even desirable. This is almost certainly a shortcoming on my part.

For AMS Brass, there is probably not quite as much ground covered as there is in Uist (from memory the patch lists are slightly more voluminous than War and Peace), but I think it's more flexible and arguably more playable. I guess it all comes down to what do you need. It doesn't have the sort of mangling options that Forzo has so you'd probably need external effects to achieve anything like the sound design options in there. Open and con sord/stopped samples available. Multi mic and a neat spacial placement, staging set up. You can cross fade between two different articulations of your choosing (lip-bends to flurries for example) and set up desired articulations or cross fades in an interface to suit your needs (rather than searching through patch lists). The Film&Game composer video series is quite good to give you a more in-depth look. The Strezov videos are good too IMHO. Link to AMS Horns user manual here.


----------



## dcoscina (Aug 27, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> To me, Forzo sounds darker and rounder than Ark I. (I do very much like the a9 horns in Ark.) Forzo also sounds far more versatile at modest dynamic levels than Ark I. From the way Forzo is being marketed as massive epic brass, that may well count as a flaw since it doesn't seem to deliver completely over-the-top the way some other libraries do. Still, everyone seems to agree that the trombones are the gem in this library.


Yeah it actually seems to top out at f or mf. It doesn’t get that strident sound that one finds in other libraries but frankly I think that’s a plus not a detractor.


----------



## jbuhler (Aug 27, 2018)

dcoscina said:


> Yeah it actually seems to top out at f or mf. It doesn’t get that strident sound that one finds in other libraries but frankly I think that’s a plus not a detractor.


I agree with you, and I very much like the sound of Forzo. If I was in the market for a brass library I would definitely buy it. As it is, I'm quite tempted.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Aug 28, 2018)

jbuhler said:


> I agree with you, and I very much like the sound of Forzo. If I was in the market for a brass library I would definitely buy it. As it is, I'm quite tempted.


Yep. Agreed.
I'm falling off the wagon right now, it's looking increasingly tempting. I will continue to evaluate...#I'mhopeless


----------



## Jay Panikkar (Aug 28, 2018)

Interesting but faulty comparison: different section sizes, different mics loaded, different stereo width & different mixing.

If you collapse HB stereo width by 20% or so, you'll get a thiccer concentrated sound similar to FORZO.

Regardless, can't go wrong with either library, in my opinion (unless you need legato).


----------



## Mike Fox (Aug 28, 2018)

HB still kills it!


----------



## erica-grace (Aug 28, 2018)

Jay Panikkar said:


> Interesting but faulty comparison: different section sizes, different mics loaded, different stereo width & different mixing.



Thanks for your comment 

I disagree that the comparison is faulty. The libraries are what they are. It's about as faulty as comparing Cinematic Studio Strings to SFA's Symphonic Strings. Different section sizes, different mics loaded, different stereo width & different mixing. Does that mean we shouldn't do comparisons?


----------



## fixxer49 (Aug 28, 2018)

quantum7 said:


> I still use my “ancient” Cinebrass libraries and find they still do quite well in 2018. Do the newer brass libs really get you that much more?


speaking of "ancient", *VSL Epic Horns* (esp. legato) still gets a dust-off every once in a while, when/if needed.


----------



## Wolf68 (Aug 28, 2018)

I don't think These libraries are comparable. Just different tools. Both superb in their own way.


----------



## dcoscina (Aug 28, 2018)

Wolf68 said:


> I don't think These libraries are comparable. Just different tools. Both superb in their own way.


From my initial exposure to Forzo it’s conventional line up is very good but this library really kicks ass in the hybrid stuff. I mean it’s next level s***. I don’t have anything else like it in my arsenal and the library is worth that alone. My 2 cents.


----------



## dhlkid (Aug 28, 2018)

VSL Epic Horn legato still very useful


----------



## Casiquire (Aug 28, 2018)

HB sounds significantly brighter and has more buzz to my ears so the style is rather different. The both sound great to me. I'm not the hugest EW guy but HB truly is a fantastic library.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Sep 5, 2018)

I wasn't sure where to drop this so I will leave it here. I wanted to try layering a brass legato with Forzo and see what happened. Apologies in advance to Mr Copland (it's not the full piece, just the first few bars). If anyone has issues with the mock-up it's probably me and not the libraries. Please feel free to critique me or check on what/how I did before you blame any libraries.

There is no added Eq on this, I wanted it as out of the box as possible. I did add a bus compressor though (Waves SSL bus comp) for a little glue. No added verbs just what comes stock when opening the instruments. I didn't adjust them at all (trying for out of the box sound) so it is mostly the room in which they were recorded.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t6bzef03f...e Common Man - Copland - Midi Mockup.wav?dl=0

I'm really enjoying Forzo so far and it sounds beautiful; I haven't even touched the sound design side of the library yet, just the traditional stuff. This is a combination of Forzo Trumpets + OT Berlin Brass Trumpet 1 legato with Forzo Horns + OT Berlin Brass Horn 1 legato. The Perc is SFA Joby Burgess Redux.

I was not trying to push the limits of dynamics/expression here, more testing if layering libraries would achieve a decent result re legato (as Forzo has none). I think the layered brass works well together and this may be a solution if someone wants Forzo and legato. Usual disclaimers apply and YMMV.


----------



## Rodney Money (Oct 1, 2018)

NoamL said:


> (I'm indebted to @Rodney Money for some of these ideas


I don't deserve this, my friend, but you made my day.


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I think I'd be most be surprised if I read someone whom already owned Ark 1 chose to buy Forzo . From what I've heard and read, this is like a fortissimo and above library...geez, Ark kind of covered that, in spades.
> 
> That said, I'm not entirely sure how wet Forzo is, and am first to admit the baked in reverb of Ark 1 hardly works for every loud brass part.


That's actually my biggest issue with the Arks: the baked in reverb.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Nov 14, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> That's actually my biggest issue with the Arks: the baked in reverb.



It's really good when I use the Arks solely for a project. Sometimes turning off the tree and turning up the close mics can help. So far though, only the EWH series are giving me trouble with the mixing, and it can't just be because those are dry samples, because I use a full Chris Hein Woodwind and Violin ensemble mixed with my Met Ark 1 and 2 templates and haven't had a terrible time mixing them at all. 

But hey, you and I are familiar with all the room sound from the Albion series anyway. Still great instruments, imo.


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> It's really good when I use the Arks solely for a project. Sometimes turning off the tree and turning up the close mics can help. So far though, only the EWH series are giving me trouble with the mixing, and it can't just be because those are dry samples, because I use a full Chris Hein Woodwind and Violin ensemble mixed with my Met Ark 1 and 2 templates and haven't had a terrible time mixing them at all.
> 
> But hey, you and I are familiar with all the room sound from the Albion series anyway. Still great instruments, imo.


Still great instruments, absolutely! And I still use them, even though I might have to fight with them a little.

Out of curiosity, what are some of the mixing issues you're running into with EW?


----------



## Parsifal666 (Nov 14, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Still great instruments, absolutely! And I still use them, even though I might have to fight with them a little.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what are some of the mixing issues you're running into with EW?



I tried using my default 'verbs on EW in an attempt to square them up with the Arks, but QL Spaces and Altiverb aren't working (I could just plain be doing something wrong, of course) .

I still have some great 'verbs to try (the Fabfilter can be pretty darn useful, and even Revelation can surprise me sometimes), so I'm sure I'll iron it out. I also have to get over my compulsion to just fiddle with the predelay for proximity. To me predelay on reverb can be a really tricky place to play...


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I tried using my default 'verbs on EW in an attempt to square them up with the Arks, but QL Spaces and Altiverb aren't working (I could just plain be doing something wrong, of course) .
> 
> I still have some great 'verbs to try (the Fabfilter can be pretty darn useful, and even Revelation can surprise me sometimes), so I'm sure I'll iron it out. I also have to get over my compulsion to just fiddle with the predelay for proximity. To me predelay on reverb can be a really tricky place to play...


Gold or Diamond, and which patches? I might be able to help.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Nov 14, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Gold or Diamond, and which patches? I might be able to help.



Gold. Mostly the Sus patches (the legati and shorts for some reason aren't as hard to integrate). 

Not at all sure why. Argh, I caught myself fiddling with the pre delay again lol!


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Gold. Mostly the Sus patches (the legati and shorts for some reason aren't as hard to integrate).
> 
> Not at all sure why. Argh, I caught myself fiddling with the pre delay again lol!


Any way you could PM me a clip?


----------



## Parsifal666 (Nov 14, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Any way you could PM me a clip?



I'd be too embarrassed (trust me, deservedly so). 

I'm grateful for the offer, as I'm positive you could help, but I'll find a way. I usually do.


----------



## dcoscina (Nov 14, 2018)

I just wrote a review of Forzo for Film Score Monthly and after playing with the library I stand by my initial impressions. The Evolved folder (Brass Designer and Loop Designer NKIs) are worth their weight in gold (or the list price). It's really exceptionally well thought out and executed stuff.


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'd be too embarrassed (trust me, deservedly so).
> 
> I'm grateful for the offer, as I'm positive you could help, but I'll find a way. I usually do.


Sounds like you don't give yourself enough credit. I bet your compositions are great!


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 15, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'd be too embarrassed (trust me, deservedly so).
> 
> I'm grateful for the offer, as I'm positive you could help, but I'll find a way. I usually do.



The feeling of considering letting someone else hear music: most terrifying concept in the world
The feeling directly after somebody honest and kind hears it: most relieving and confidence-building feeling in the world


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Nov 16, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> The feeling of considering letting someone else hear music: most terrifying concept in the world
> The feeling directly after somebody honest and kind hears it: most relieving and confidence-building feeling in the world



if you love your music, then you shouldnt be afraid to give others the opportunity to love it as well. they may or may not; the outcome shouldnt affect your own passion


----------



## ManicMiner (Nov 16, 2018)

I'm on the edge of buying EW Hollywood Brass. I just would like to see more videos on it, or more demos. The videos that are around seem to be of Diamond, and other videos there's no way of knowing if its Diamond or Gold because it doesn't give you a clue on the GUI what version it is.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Nov 16, 2018)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> if you love your music, then you shouldnt be afraid to give others the opportunity to love it as well. they may or may not; the outcome shouldnt affect your own passion


This is true in theory but not always easy in practice. I tend to “like” all users compositions posted here purely for the courage of posting something. Whether I actually enjoy it is another matter entirely but I’m open enough to appreciate that new things can come from unexpected sources so I’m always listening. More often than not I do enjoy users compositions.


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 16, 2018)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> if you love your music, then you shouldnt be afraid to give others the opportunity to love it as well. they may or may not; the outcome shouldnt affect your own passion



That's a statement framed from an extroverted mindset. Not everyone comes from that same place. It's quite possible to love your music and be terrified of letting anyone hear it.


----------



## Mike Fox (Nov 16, 2018)

Casiquire said:


> That's a statement framed from an extroverted mindset. Not everyone comes from that same place. It's quite possible to love your music and be terrified of letting anyone hear it.


That's understandable, but honestly? Unless the person is a real dick, or doesnt know shit about music, you're more than likely going to get some priceless feedback that will help you as a composer! 

Seriously though, what is there to be afraid of? I think it's one of those social fears that doesnt really make any sense. Im terrified of public speaking. Showing people my music is a fearless task for me, but public speaking? No thank you.


----------



## dpasdernick (Nov 16, 2018)

Forzo, like Novo were never really meant to be replacements for traditional orchestral libraries like HW Orchestra and Cinesamples,etc. It's no not apples to apples. While Forzo and Novo do contain some conventional sounds and articulation their real strength is in the hybrid sound design. 

I have both and can get lost for hours layering sounds in the brass and string designers. Heavyocity make some very cool libs.


----------



## jneebz (Nov 17, 2018)

dpasdernick said:


> Forzo, like Novo were never really meant to be replacements for traditional orchestral libraries like HW Orchestra and Cinesamples,etc. It's no not apples to apples. While Forzo and Novo do contain some conventional sounds and articulation their real strength is in the hybrid sound design.
> 
> I have both and can get lost for hours layering sounds in the brass and string designers. Heavyocity make some very cool libs.


Think I’m gonna spring for NOVO and Gravity. Seems like an endless universe of creativity....


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Nov 17, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> This is true in theory but not always easy in practice. I tend to “like” all users compositions posted here purely for the courage of posting something. Whether I actually enjoy it is another matter entirely but I’m open enough to appreciate that new things can come from unexpected sources so I’m always listening. More often than not I do enjoy users compositions.



I don't think you've quite understood what I said... basically I am encouraging other musicians to share their music. It shouldn't matter whether others like it or not. In reality, there's *ALWAYS* going to be someone who truly hates your music (yes even Hans Zimmer and John Williams are hated by some. I've met people who hate them.) But the only way to find people who like your music, and there _will_ be those too, is to share it. If you keep it all private, nobody will ever be able to like it, because nobody will ever hear it.



Casiquire said:


> That's a statement framed from an extroverted mindset. Not everyone comes from that same place. It's quite possible to love your music and be terrified of letting anyone hear it.



I can assure you, I am quite the introvert 
It is possible to be introverted and still share your material.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Nov 17, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> That's understandable, but honestly? Unless the person is a real dick, or doesnt know shit about music, you're more than likely going to get some priceless feedback that will help you as a composer!
> 
> Seriously though, what is there to be afraid of? I think it's one of those social fears that doesnt really make any sense. Im terrified of public speaking. Showing people my music is a fearless task for me, but public speaking? No thank you.



Well, there are hopeless cases like me, where I get paid to write things I don't particularly like, and on my own time I write what amounts to things that I know will only satisfy me. I only "care" when I'm getting paid, otherwise I've found the rest of my stuff is of massive disinterest/distaste to the vast majority.

I write the non-commercial stuff for me (and most of the time even I'm unhappy with it.) Sharing is neither my goal nor desire. 

But hey, everyone has their right to this kind of thing.


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Nov 17, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I write the non-commercial stuff for me (and most of the time even I'm unhappy with it.) Sharing is neither my goal nor desire.
> 
> But hey, everyone has their right to this kind of thing.



I am curious, and of course you don't have to respond, as to what you would describe your 'non-commercial' music as? In terms of genre or style.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Nov 17, 2018)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I am curious, and of course you don't have to respond, as to what you would describe your 'non-commercial' music as? In terms of genre or style.



Well for one thing it's too quirky for most (without going all Zappa). Things that are very personally expressive and aiming toward fresh vistas aren't typically received super well (look at Beethoven's late string quartets and sonatas, not to mention Wagner's groundbreaking Tristan und Isolde; neither work was universally lauded upon publication, in fact some reviewers thought they were the product of unbalanced minds (despite the fact that those composers were already recognized as great in Occidental music). Not that I'm even in the same dimension as those Undying Immortal Masters and their bar-setting Masterpieces, in fact I more often than not think I suck dead rats.

Pigeon-holing it: I had sex with this girl once who told me my symphonies sound like sound-paintings. There's bits of Opera, Sonata-teases, Improv Jazz, Rock/Metal, Chamber music, country, blues. Mostly symphonic (as in, written with large orchestras in mind, the kind that include instruments from the above genres and more).

The biggest problem/blessing I have with the music I write for myself is that I really don't have or want to hear what other people think about it. It's far too personal, sort of a musical autobiography. It's not accessible, though I don't make the inaccessibility my main goal (which I sometimes suspect both Zorn and Zappa did on occasion). It just came out that way.

As what could be see as quintessentially avante-garde, I am the master of time in my compositions, and will change the tempo and signatures as my muse elects, which I've seen make too many listeners blanch and get very polite.

So...I don't think my non-commercial music sucks at all. I just know it sucks to everyone else who hears it. Which is fine, because it's mine and me.


----------



## dpasdernick (Nov 17, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> ...Pigeon-holing it: I had sex with this girl once who told me my symphonies sound like sound-paintings..,



Or.. “I knew a girl once who told me...”

TMI dude.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Nov 17, 2018)

dpasdernick said:


> Or.. “I knew a girl once who told me...”
> 
> TMI dude.



No, the having sex part could have influenced what she said (we were definitely gettin' our Dionysian freek on), possibly negating it. I wanted to express to the reader the context of the remark, because to be honest, I really don't have a definition for what I do non-professionally, and she was, well...horny.

TMI, but somebody might have smiled 

I know for a fact the stuff I write professionally (especially the stuff of the past seven or eight years) is trash, very much controlled by the person paying, and it mostly covers rent (if little else).


----------



## Karl Feuerstake (Nov 17, 2018)

i thought it was an amusing remark. now i must admit to be really curious what you write, but i respect your decision to keep it private.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Nov 17, 2018)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> i thought it was an amusing remark.



WHEW! 

And thanks for being a considerate person, nice to see folks like that. Hope you have a wonderful weekend.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Nov 17, 2018)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> I don't think you've quite understood what I said... basically I am encouraging other musicians to share their music. It shouldn't matter whether others like it or not. In reality, there's *ALWAYS* going to be someone who truly hates your music (yes even Hans Zimmer and John Williams are hated by some. I've met people who hate them.) But the only way to find people who like your music, and there _will_ be those too, is to share it. If you keep it all private, nobody will ever be able to like it, because nobody will ever hear it.


Pretty sure I understood based on original post and this clarification but maybe my response was unclear. I’m all for members sharing compositions here. Especially if using a new tool or library to demonstrate it.


----------



## Casiquire (Nov 17, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> That's understandable, but honestly? Unless the person is a real dick, or doesnt know shit about music, you're more than likely going to get some priceless feedback that will help you as a composer!
> 
> Seriously though, what is there to be afraid of? I think it's one of those social fears that doesnt really make any sense. Im terrified of public speaking. Showing people my music is a fearless task for me, but public speaking? No thank you.



It absolutely is one of those things and it's crippling. For anybody else out there like me though, trust me, is safe anonymous environment like this there are plenty of people looking to help, not judge, and it's very uplifting to put yourself out there like that


----------

