# Conductor's Scores for Film Music, why so rare?



## midi_controller

Since I've been getting more into studying scores lately, naturally the first thing I wanted to do was get some scores from the composers I grew up listening to, mainly film composers from the 80s onwards. I've found that with the exception of John Williams, there is just nothing out there. Well, maybe not nothing, but sometimes what is there is worse than nothing (stuff arranged for high school orchestras and the like).

I just don't understand why this stuff isn't available, am I missing something? Is it the publishing costs? What about a digital store, where you can buy it and print it out yourself, then the only cost is bandwidth.

And before people say "go study the scores that influenced your favorite composers", I do, but it isn't the music that I really want to study. Besides, that is like saying "You want to know how Beethoven scored this piece? Go study Vivaldi."

I guess I'm just reaching the edge of what I can do by ear (ever try picking out the woodwinds in a fanfare, or which strings are playing divisi? Ugh!) and I wish there was a better way. Besides, I think it's a shame to just let these works rot away.


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## TheWillardofOZ

Really interesting topic. I feel like it has to do with the digital age and the use of synths. 

The main reason we've been writing stuff on paper for so long was so that musicians could replicate what we composers hear in our heads. It doesn't seem like there'd be much use for a score to a hybrid composition if there aren't live players being conducted. 

I agree that it would be nice to see the score to my favorite soundtracks, but it would probably have to be a condensed score (Bleh....). Writing out parts for every little thing that goes into music now days would take up an enormous amount of space with todays notation.


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## passenger57

I used to work for a music copyist and orchestrator here in LA years ago. I worked on tons of famous scores. They even let me copy some of them for my personal collection


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## Peter Alexander

Well, since I sell these scores I'll give you THE answer which is that studios don't see the financial gain in releasing study scores. It is not a big business. Some scores are available for rental from those composers whose music is played in concert. 

Even though John Williams makes dozens of his scores available, most of these are the concertized versions although some of them are end credits and the occasional opening. And, truth be told, most prefer investing $480 into software programs rather than $48 into a score which they deem to be too expensive. 

There are some other scores available but these go lacking because they're not new contemporary movies regardless of the quality of scoring. 

One that should be selling consistently is Mancini's Case History of a Film Score: The Thorn Birds:
http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products/Henry-Mancini--Case-History-of-a-Film-Score--The-Thorn-Birds-%28wCD%29__00-ELM04007CD.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... 007CD.aspx)

As to this comment: _And before people say "go study the scores that influenced your favorite composers", I do, but it isn't the music that I really want to study. Besides, that is like saying "You want to know how Beethoven scored this piece? Go study Vivaldi."_

You need to be studying the right scores to know where to drink from the well.

It's easier to list by composer:

Bartok
Berlioz
Bizet (Carmen)
Borodin
Copland
Debussy
Mahler
Moussorgsky
Rimsky-Korsakov
Puccini (Turandot)
Ravel
Strauss
Stravinsky
Tchaikovsky
Vaughan Williams
Wagner

You can add to the list, but this is the core group where most film scoring devices come from. And these represent three strands: contrapuntal, programmatic works including ballet, and opera. Compositionally they represent both major and minor tonalities plus modality (the Russians, Debussy and Ravel on selected pieces). 

All of these composers have one thing in common: _story telling through the live orchestra._


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## midi_controller

Peter Alexander @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> Well, since I sell these scores I'll give you THE answer which is that studios don't see the financial gain in releasing study scores. It is not a big business. Some scores are available for rental from those composers whose music is played in concert.
> 
> Even though John Williams makes dozens of his scores available, most of these are the concertized versions although some of them are end credits and the occasional opening. And, truth be told, most prefer investing $480 into software programs rather than $48 into a score which they deem to be too expensive.



I don't buy that. If there wasn't a market for it, then why are there 50 bazillion arrangements of this material available? Besides, if there really wasn't a profit to be made, then why not release them for free? It's just really sad, like when a CD goes out of print and there is no other way to get the music. At some point the originals are just not going to be around anymore, then the best that anyone can hope for is an interpretation, and only if the recordings survive.

Even though the William's scores are concertized, they are almost 100% like the originals. For example, I just bought The Theme from Jurassic Park from your website today, and based on the recording, I know exactly what cues were used and what is missing (mainly the choir). Other than that nothing was fundamentally changed. Another example would be the Born on the 4th of July score (next on my list), except I don't think anything is missing from that one. That isn't something I can count on in arrangements. Some are so radically different that even the melody isn't the same, let alone the orchestration which almost never is.

They could just throw up scans of the original score, cluttered and marked up as they are, and I would pay for them. Hell, I think a lot of people would pay for them. With more modern works, everything has to go into a notation program at some point right? The work is already done! Print PDF, nothing more. There are people out there trading HANDWRITTEN copies of these scores that you can barely read. That is how desperate we've become!

How long has it been like this? I noticed I couldn't find anything by Bernard Herrmann either... is that stuff just gone now?


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## David Story

midi_controller @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Thu Feb 07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, since I sell these scores I'll give you THE answer which is that studios don't see the financial gain in releasing study scores.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't buy that. If there wasn't a market for it, then why are there 50 bazillion arrangements of this material available? ...
> 
> ...How long has it been like this? I noticed I couldn't find anything by Bernard Herrmann either... is that stuff just gone now?
Click to expand...


Peter is right, I've been in meetings where a studio exec says that they aren't interested in such small profits. For soundtracks as well as sheet music. 

I'd be interested in seeing which film scores have many arrangements available, unless your talking the by ear ones on youtube. Theme songs from big films will often get a piano/guitar version, and possibly a wind band arraignment.

It's always been like this, sadly. You can get a little Bernard Herrmann in Norman Ludwin's new orchestration ORCHESTRATION: A New Approach. And there's trading that goes on by people in the industry and a few very persistent collectors.

The Williams scores are NOT what's in the movies, he directs arrangers to "hold back". They are sometimes the concert versions, those are good and effective. But the real score is more difficult and for larger orchestra.

And most relevant of all: We notate so other musicians can quickly join in and learn the music. Music is far more that what's in even the greatest composers imagination. Music is social and needs performers and an audience to come to life. That simple truth is lost in the DIY age, reducing the demand even further. Sample scores just aren't fun to play live.

JW is an exception, many people want to join in and play his work. Plus he has fans, he can give a great live show.

There are small labels that will help a game or indie film score get a meaningful release. Maybe someone could do that for study scores.


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## Peter Alexander

The reason that there are "bazillions" of arrangements is to create licensing income from the themes. There are thousands of marching and concert bands around the world who buy these arrangements that have to be adapted. And when a company like Alfred or Hal Leonard does the adaptation, they front the money not the studios. 

At the symphonic level, not so much, though sales of the JW scores have been good there. 

Yes, the JW scores are most like the originals but we're obligated to point out that some have been adapted for concert purposes. Some such as ET, Close Encounters and Raider's March are found exact on The Spielberg/Williams Collaboration CD. Phantom Menace also matches the CD. Star Wars does not, though, as you noted, it's close.

Bernard Herrmann is not available, never has been, though it may be available for rental purposes, which some do. 

There are film score suites that go ignored by customers. 

Barber: Adagio For Strings
Bernstein: West Side Story
Copland: The Red Pony, Our Town
Mancini: The Thorn Birds book with the actual Cues and CD
Ravel: Bolero
Vaughan Williams: Sinfonia Antarctica 
Walton: Richard III

In regards to your other points, these works are under copyright and the copyright holders aren't going to give them away.

RE: Herrmann. Here's an interview I found for you with Elmer Bernstein talking about Herrmann. 
http://www.bernardherrmann.org/articles ... bernstein/

Ghost and Mrs. Muir (scroll down - not one review)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0810856794/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1GHDJQYY64HX80ZY1SGM&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081085 ... d_i=507846)

Vertigo
http://www.amazon.com/Bernard-Herrmanns-Vertigo-Handbook-Guides/dp/031331490X (http://www.amazon.com/Bernard-Herrmanns ... 031331490X)

I don't know what your career goals are, but these men studied widely and were often at a concert pianists level in their playing. They certainly listened to each others scores, but if they were under contract to the same studio, they could walk into the stacks and pull out those scores. 

I don't know how widely you listen, but if you reduced your listening to just Bartok, Copland, and Mahler, you'd have a deep well of scoring resources to draw from.


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## Peter Alexander

@David Story

Norman Ludwin - I'll have to order this. With all that color printing it was expensive to print. How many pages is it?

One I keep next to me is Henry Brant's Textures and Timbres. Brant orchestrated for Alex North.
http://www.amazon.com/Textures-Timbres-Orchestrator-rsquo-Handbook/dp/0825868270/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1360308935&sr=8-4&keywords=henry+brant (http://www.amazon.com/Textures-Timbres- ... enry+brant)

Your points about studio execs are well made. If I was to work out a deal to publish study scores for the original Mark of Zorro, Robin Hood, Ben Hur, Planet of The Apes, I'd be lucky to sell 50 if that. Then once you do, it will be scanned and uploaded.

So there's no incentive due to piracy. The only incentive is library sales, and there, budgets are being cut. 

But some composers have donated their scores to universities, including Herrmann. So appointments can be made to study them at the school but not to check out.

Thanks again for the lead.


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## midi_controller

Peter Alexander @ Thu Feb 07 said:


> The reason that there are "bazillions" of arrangements is to create licensing income from the themes. There are thousands of marching and concert bands around the world who buy these arrangements that have to be adapted. And when a company like Alfred or Hal Leonard does the adaptation, they front the money not the studios.
> 
> At the symphonic level, not so much, though sales of the JW scores have been good there.



Thanks for all the links! I have a couple of those but others I'm going to need to take a look at (I've never really listened to Ravel, it's horrible I know).

The bands and piano transcriptions I can totally understand, and I wasn't talking about those. I meant something like this:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Rob ... e/19251172

If you are familiar with the original, you know this isn't the same piece of music. Maybe it was arranged to make it easier to play, but I can't understand why. When I was a percussionist I played in some community orchestras if they didn't have enough people, and not ONCE did I hear a simplified version of a piece, they just selected ones that were appropriate to the skill level of the orchestra. 

So what went wrong here? They would obviously need to get the rights to publish this, couldn't the arranger take a look at the original? If so why is it so radically changed? They are probably not all that bad but it's hard to tell just by looking at them, and not all of them have audio demos.

Anyway, that's kind of off-topic. So Hal Leonard has to pay a licensing fee, is that what you meant by fronting the money? I wonder how much that costs... probably way too much. :shock: 

I had heard that James Newton-Howard donated his scores to USC but I didn't know that Herrmann donated his as well. That makes me feel a little better, even though I can't get at them! I wonder if I could take a trip... :D


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## David Story

Herrmann collection is a UCSB. Goldsmith is at AMPAS Library, also North.

And there are study scores at the copying services here in LA. 

But seriously, these guys are doing Bartok, Copland, Stravinsky, Ravel, etc simplified for the movies. Williams is very close to Prokofiev and Walton. They have original variations on the techniques, and add electronics. But if you want the orchestral elements, you can look to the artists who were there first. Add electric bass and pads


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## midi_controller

David Story @ Fri Feb 08 said:


> Herrmann collection is a UCSB. Goldsmith is at AMPAS Library, also North.
> 
> And there are study scores at the copying services here in LA.
> 
> But seriously, these guys are doing Bartok, Copland, Stravinsky, Ravel, etc simplified for the movies. Williams is very close to Prokofiev and Walton. They have original variations on the techniques, and add electronics. But if you want the orchestral elements, you can look to the artists who were there first. Add electric bass and pads



True, but they are also a little before what I'm really looking for, which is people like Newton-Howard, Horner, Elfman, Kamen, ect. It's funny how this works, because I know Elfman at least was heavily influenced by Rota and Herrmann to name a couple. But that is the thing, by the time you look at the influence of the influences it starts becoming very different (at least I think so). You can hate me for saying this but I was never as moved by Prokofiev as I have been by Williams, which is why I'd rather study Williams if I have the option. It's purely subjective. 

It's kind of like when I was a teenager, everyone was listening to bands like Nirvana or the Smashing Pumpkins (or at least the cool people were  ). So when I was learning how to play the guitar, I wanted to learn songs by those bands. Sure, you could say "You should just learn to play The Beatles because both those bands where heavily influenced by them" but I would have just looked at you funny. It's apples to oranges. Nirvana SPOKE to me. The Beatles, while I appreciate them, never had the same kind of impact (although they did do some awesome things).


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## Peter Alexander

I understand what you're looking for and it's not available. Wish it was. What's available is what I've posted including the suites that were once film scores.


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## Malo

For those who doesn't (yet) own any of the available John Williams Signature Edition scores:
Yes! They are concert arrangements, but they are Williams' own arrangements. If you want to study his orchestration - this is the real deal! Williams conducts Harry Potter from the Signature Edition score in concerts.


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## Peter Alexander

Malo @ Fri Feb 08 said:


> For those who doesn't (yet) own any of the available John Williams Signature Edition scores:
> Yes! They are concert arrangements, but they are Williams' own arrangements. If you want to study his orchestration - this is the real deal! Williams conducts Harry Potter from the Signature Edition score in concerts.



Right! That's what we have up at Alexander Publishing in our JW section. But he has altered some of them for concert performance, so they won't always match the cues.


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## YuHirà

The truth is that almost every existing score which has been written in the last decades is available in original full score (about 2000-3000 handwritten or typed complete scores in PDF are in circulation), whether it's from JNH, Zimmer, Elfman, Powell, Goldenthal, Herrmann or Desplat. But most ot the time, not on the official market. These conductor's scores are exchanged in private between fans, students or composers.

A lot of composers take part on it and feed the trade. C. Young for instance gave away some written stuff to his fans in Spain a few years ago, M. Beltrami put online a part of his scores, etc... And I know for sure that some of them are happy to get scores from their colleagues in return. It's not possible to buy full scores from film composers (except a few of them), but it's easy for assistants, conductors or sometimes fans to get them by asking to the composers and then to trade them for free through the Internet, thanks to their relationships.

Of course, a few composers like Conrad Pope don't support this practice, and they are partly right as a very few of them are already sold on the official market (John Williams Signature Edition). But we can be sure that full music scores are not rare anymore!


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## Peter Alexander

YuHirà @ Sat Feb 09 said:


> The truth is that almost every existing score which has been written in the last decades is available in original full score (about 2000-3000 handwritten or typed complete scores in PDF are in circulation), whether it's from JNH, Zimmer, Elfman, Powell, Goldenthal, Herrmann or Desplat. But most ot the time, not on the official market. These conductor's scores are exchanged in private between fans, students or composers.
> 
> A lot of composers take part on it and feed the trade. C. Young for instance gave away some written stuff to his fans in Spain a few years ago, M. Beltrami put online a part of his scores, etc... And I know for sure that some of them are happy to get scores from their colleagues in return. It's not possible to buy full scores from film composers (except a few of them), but it's easy for assistants, conductors or sometimes fans to get them by asking to the composers and then to trade them for free through the Internet, thanks to their relationships.
> 
> Of course, a few composers like Conrad Pope don't support this practice, and they are partly right as a very few of them are already sold on the official market (John Williams Signature Edition). But we can be sure that full music scores are not rare anymore!



If a composer has made his cues available that's one thing, as depending upon the contract, the studio owns them.


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## YuHirà

> If a composer has made his cues available that's one thing, as depending upon the contract, the studio owns them.



Yes, indeed :D 

But these scores are now in circulation: whether it's illegal or not, it was not the case about ten years ago!


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## bryla

because of the maturity of internet piracy 10 years ago


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## gsilbers

i kinda read fast so sorry if this was said above


but if you go to scott smalley orchestration class he will give u 2 very think book with movie orchestral scores. price of the class alone i would pay for those. 

it has all type of different movies. snippets of others and piano schetches from williams etc and then the fully orchestrated score. 

he also mentioned that u could go to a place and study all the scores u wante. i think its USC ?!!? not sure. but u cant take them out.


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## choc0thrax

I gotta give a thumbs up to messily handwritten PDF's - I remember I learned even more because I couldn't tell what every note was and was forced to look the piece as a whole to determine what the note probably was and then test it. This forced me to analyze more than my lazy ass probably would have.


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## Rctec

Not that anyone in their right mind would want my scores, since they are sort of unplayable and incomplete ( why, or how, can I write the electronics in?) at best, or for impossible line-ups (like, for example, 28 celli, 8 basses. Ok, Spitfire have just given you the weapons for that one...), but every once in a while someone wants to play these scores. I keep telling them to just phone the music departments at the studios directly - I'm sure they'd be happy to supply copies of the originals. Because the one thing I can't stand are all those horrible, clumsy take-downs-by-ear that are floating around out there. There seems to be a whole industry devoted to doing bad versions and recording it with Eastern European orchestras. Obviously, it's just done for greed by those record companies and their orchestrators, but we can't prevent them from legally doing it, even though the audience is obviously getting conned by them putting my name on the cd. 

So, I'd much rather have them record from the original scores.

On the other hand, there was a real effort made in helping the "Pirates" live to picture orchestra tour that's going on right now through Europe. A lot of work from this side of the pond went into making sure they had all the parts, and I went to some rehearsals in Berlin. The first thing we had to tell them was to double their French horn line-up, not because they didn't sound good, but they needed to give half the players a bit of a rest between cues. Something that was recorded over 5 or so days is pretty hard to perform in 2 hours without serious injury occurring...which brings me to that there are certain considerations to take into account when you get an original conductor's score that just aren't reflected on the page. This isn't concert music and is very often written for very specific musicians in mind, a certain acoustic, samples that might be proprietary and don't get written onto the page, etc., etc.

And yes, the studios own the original. But I get enough calls from them (they actually ask the composer for permission) to know that they will let you have a copy of the original. As long as you are not trying to directly compete with their sound-track release, or in any other way ruin the integrity of the project...

Just my 2 cents...

-H-


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## midi_controller

You know, it's odd to me that it never occurred to ask the source. I'm sure that I'd probably get a lot of refusals but it couldn't hurt to try. And that is the second time that someone has recommended the Smalley course, I'm probably going to hop on it once I get some extra time. I just got another orchestration course I need to do first.

If anyone has not been to Marco Beltrami's website, do it now! He offers the scores for a bunch of his cues, it's awesome. Here is the link: http://www.marcobeltrami.com

I wanted to say, since Mr. Zimmer decided to peek in, thanks for doing the Music Studio thing on Angels & Demons. It was really interesting to see how everything was mixed (at least partially), and I felt like I definitely learned a few things. That's another thing I wish there was more of in general: stems. I learn so much faster hearing how things work together than reading about how to make it work.


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## JimmyPoppa

midi_controller @ Sun Feb 10 said:


> ...And that is the second time that someone has recommended the Smalley course, I'm probably going to hop on it once I get some extra time. I just got another orchestration course I need to do first...



Several people on this forum have taken the 'in-person' version of the Smalley Course. I did both levels of the online versions last year. Here is the thread about that which lists the scores in the course. It's important to note that these are only excerpts. There are no full-length sound tracks. Each excerpt is intended to demonstrate a particular concept he is teaching.

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ht=smalley

Hope this helps.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## SweenyNickat

The European Film Philharmonic Institute is a company that realizes film concerts and film music concerts around the world and also engages in film music edition. They have a big archive of film music scores, partly arrangements for concert programmes, partly scores that have been brought from manuscript to proper notation.
You can find a list of themes and film titles here: http://filmphilharmonie.de/index.php?id=138&L=1
Or ask directly for scores: [email protected]

I have good connections to the folks there and will have the pleasure to work with them in autumn/winter.

It's worth for you to get in contact with them, I am sure they can help you!

Best,
Yannick


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## Norman

Hello all,
Thanks to all for their enthusiasm for my Film Music book!

Two of the scores in my Film Book are not available on any soundtracks: Newman and Javarrete. Because of this I have added mp3 mockups of them at my DropBox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t0cbg3zramkjfmk/AAAUdqQyUl34YndRlnHd_pdqa?dl=0
The King Kong excerpt “T-Rex and Kong Fight” is called “Tooth and Claw” on the soundtrack, and my excerpt starts 0:44 seconds in ( also available in a YouTube clip called "King Kong 2005 soundtrack tooth and claw").
I also added this as an mp3.


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## tonaliszt

imslp has some Korngold scores (main themes). Messy and hand-written, but they are worth time looking over. Especially the middle section of kings row.


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## skyy38

TheWillardofOZ said:


> Really interesting topic. I feel like it has to do with the digital age and the use of synths.
> 
> The main reason we've been writing stuff on paper for so long was so that musicians could replicate what we composers hear in our heads. It doesn't seem like there'd be much use for a score to a hybrid composition if there aren't live players being conducted.
> 
> I agree that it would be nice to see the score to my favorite soundtracks, but it would probably have to be a condensed score (Bleh....). Writing out parts for every little thing that goes into music now days would take up an enormous amount of space with todays notation.



"Today's Notation?" What does that mean?
"Enormous amount of space?"

The original score to STAR WARS is about 900 pages. That's not what you would call "compact".

And between having a condensed score or no score at all, I'd rather have the condensed version, because at least you get a look into the mind of the composer.
It would probably be a bit much to have the full conductors score to refer to because THAT is a lot to read and take in, particularly if you're following along with the recording. I know it would be for me!

Some of you may or may not know this, but back in 1999, in one of it's last print issues, Film Score Monthly did an article called "Trilogy Tunes" in which a LOT of music and themes from the OT were published, in single stave form.

For me, this was the first time I had the chance to see what STAR WARS music looked like written down. And between the single staves and the soundtracks, I had enough to get started on doing reasonable mock-ups of some of these examples.

I think that a two stave, condensed score, with appropriate footnotes on instrumentation and orchestration would not be a bad idea, for those of us who could fill in the "blanks" with the soundtracks.


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## synergy543

n.h said:


> imslp has some Korngold scores (main themes). Messy and hand-written, but they are worth time looking over. Especially the middle section of kings row.


Here you can view a much cleaner version from Schott.
http://www.schott-music.com/shop/pr...rngold&searchMode=SM_QUICK&page=4#score342786


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## Scrianinoff

skyy38 said:


> "Today's Notation?" What does that mean?
> "Enormous amount of space?"
> 
> The original score to STAR WARS is about 900 pages. That's not what you would call "compact".
> 
> And between having a condensed score or no score at all, I'd rather have the condensed version, because at least you get a look into the mind of the composer.
> It would probably be a bit much to have the full conductors score to refer to because THAT is a lot to read and take in, particularly if you're following along with the recording. I know it would be for me! .....


Indeed! I would go a step further and argue that the condensed score is the work of the composer and the conductor score is the work of the composer expanded by the orchestrator. This old documentary shows that clearly:  The orchestration for The Empire Strikes Back was done by Herb Spencer, here you see them working together, some snippets of instruction to Herb with John Williams at the piano, Herb working on the orchestral score and discussing with John and then the orchestra performing the same snippets of music with JW conducting.

On another note, after all the attacks, accusations and mockery through the decades, of JW stealing the themes from Korngold, Stravinsky, etc. I just found (again!) new appreciation of JW's work. After reading this thread, watching this documentary and grabbing the Star Wars score while listening closely to the soundtracks, it is clear to me he is a true master of symphonic and harmonic development of the themes in this music; a form of Art that is vanishing, rather than flourishing....


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## stonzthro

What a great video - thanks for posting!


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## Zardoz

Going back to the original two-year old question, it seems that studios have largely lost interest in their classic film libraries and the ancillary products related to them because there just isn't enough money in it. Except for a few key classics that still sell well, most catalog Bluray releases sell in the hundreds or low thousands. Even well known higher profile films sometimes sell surprisingly poorly. Many studios have basically given up on their back catalogs and are farming those out to small third party labels like Shout Factory, who front all the production cost, for collectors willing to pay higher prices. 

So I have to imagine that if they aren't willing to put in the effort to produce the films themselves, a printed score has to be very far down on the list of priorities. Although we want them, from their perspective it's just not worth the effort to typeset and print them, secure the proper rights for release, etc, considering they might only sell 50 or 100 of a given title.


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## NoamL

Check out Omni Music Publishing. They've printed good complete editions of *The Matrix*_, _*Back To The Future* and a few others.


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## Daryl

stephen court said:


> Another member of this forum informed me that for the actual movie recordings JW typically uses 6.4.4.1 for brass whereas the Hal Leonard scores is reduced to 4.3.3.1. Why not just include the actual 6.4.4.1 for the Hal Leonard score?


if you want your music to be performed, sticking more closely to the standard symphony orchestra line-up makes sense.


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## tokatila

stephen court said:


> Is it truth or just rumor that JW tells the arrangers to "hold back"? I always wondered why he would do that. It seems that with respect to the Hal Leonard scores 99% of the material is there so what is being held back and why?
> 
> Another member of this forum informed me that for the actual movie recordings JW typically uses 6.4.4.1 for brass whereas the Hal Leonard scores is reduced to 4.3.3.1. Why not just include the actual 6.4.4.1 for the Hal Leonard score?



Might be true, at least with the Imperial March for example the original score has 6 horns while the JW's own signature suite has 4. Original has 4 trombones and suite has 3.

Since the JW Signature series has fewer instruments maybe he has mellowed a little bit.


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## Hanu_H

TimSim3 said:


> These original scores are usually only traded anonymously between people. And I've fortunately been able to get my hands on a lot of these film scores. If you want, I can give you my E-mail, and I can send you all the scores you want, in PDF.


This sounds interesting. What scores do you have?

-Hannes


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## gregmagee

TimSim3 said:


> These original scores are usually only traded anonymously between people. And I've fortunately been able to get my hands on a lot of these film scores. If you want, I can give you my E-mail, and I can send you all the scores you want, in PDF.



I would also be very interested in getting my hands on pdf scores. To echo Hannes' question, what scores do you have?

Thanks

Greg


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## Richard Wilkinson

I messaged him, but googling the email he gave me came up with some pretty iffy results. 
Read his comments here - doesn't seem like the most balanced chap...

https://musescore.com/user/4609081/scores/2496036


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## desert

wilx said:


> I messaged him, but googling the email he gave me came up with some pretty iffy results.
> Read his comments here - doesn't seem like the most balanced chap...
> 
> https://musescore.com/user/4609081/scores/2496036



yeh... wtf did I just read. Made me feel uncomfortable

"I'm no Stranger  Can I also ask you how old you are? If you're pretty young, I understand if your parents are not too keen on emailing me, since you're a girl, and I'm a guy who's much older."

"And don't take those tips for granted or abuse them. >:( I spent a long time typing them up for YOU. So show your appreciation. I don't do this just for anyone, and I almost NEVER do it for free. So consider yourself fortunate. (Sorry, I'm really angry while writing this). >:("


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## Norman

midi_controller said:


> Since I've been getting more into studying scores lately, naturally the first thing I wanted to do was get some scores from the composers I grew up listening to, mainly film composers from the 80s onwards. I've found that with the exception of John Williams, there is just nothing out there. Well, maybe not nothing, but sometimes what is there is worse than nothing (stuff arranged for high school orchestras and the like).
> 
> I just don't understand why this stuff isn't available, am I missing something? Is it the publishing costs? What about a digital store, where you can buy it and print it out yourself, then the only cost is bandwidth.
> 
> And before people say "go study the scores that influenced your favorite composers", I do, but it isn't the music that I really want to study. Besides, that is like saying "You want to know how Beethoven scored this piece? Go study Vivaldi."
> 
> I guess I'm just reaching the edge of what I can do by ear (ever try picking out the woodwinds in a fanfare, or which strings are playing divisi? Ugh!) and I wish there was a better way. Besides, I think it's a shame to just let these works rot away.




I agree with you! It's a crime the way the studios hold on to their film music when there are some many musicians who are interested in them.
That is why I published my "Anthology Volume Three-Film Music". I obtained the rights to reprint 10 fantastic, influential cues; actual scores and not arrangements! 

The scores are:

Psycho-Bernhard Herrmann
Lawrence of Arabia-Maurice Jarre
To Kill a Mockingbird-Elmer Bernstein
Planet of the Apes- Jerry Goldsmith
Jaws-John Williams
1941-John Williams
Born on the Fourth of July-John Williams
Jurassic Park-John Williams
Silverado-Bruce Broughton
King Kong-James N Howard
Road to Perdition-Thom Newman
Pan's Labyrinth-Javier Navarette

All cues analyzed using thirteen different categories.
Hard copy $40 Ebook $30 

http://www.musicnewapproach.com/film-music-book

-Norman


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## JohnG

@Norman How big are the pages of the hard copy?


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## Norman

The pages are 8x11 landscape in the hard copy, but of course in the ebook you can enlarge them quite a bit.


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## JohnG

ok -- thanks. It's a good title list.


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## mgpqa1

Norman said:


> ...I obtained the rights to reprint 10 fantastic, influential cues; actual scores and not arrangements!
> 
> The scores are:
> 
> Psycho-Bernhard Herrmann
> Lawrence of Arabia-Maurice Jarre
> To Kill a Mockingbird-Elmer Bernstein
> Planet of the Apes- Jerry Goldsmith
> Jaws-John Williams
> 1941-John Williams
> Born on the Fourth of July-John Williams
> Jurassic Park-John Williams
> Silverado-Bruce Broughton
> King Kong-James N Howard
> Road to Perdition-Thom Newman
> Pan's Labyrinth-Javier Navarette
> 
> All cues analyzed using thirteen different categories.
> Hard copy $40 Ebook $30
> 
> http://www.musicnewapproach.com/film-music-book
> 
> -Norman



Wow! Are these "complete" scores (i.e., every cue) or just highlights/fragments of certain passages from each?

Moreover, I own the JW Signature Edition of Jurassic Park, but it's a concert arrangement and not exactly what was used in the film (I've seen the handwritten score before)... your book, on the other hand, has the actual score/orchestration that was used in the film?


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## Norman

mgpqa1 said:


> Wow! Are these "complete" scores (i.e., every cue) or just highlights/fragments of certain passages from each?
> 
> Moreover, I own the JW Signature Edition of Jurassic Park, but it's a concert arrangement and not exactly what was used in the film (I've seen the handwritten score before)... your book, on the other hand, has the actual score/orchestration that was used in the film?



These are cues from the individual movies, not the entire movie. They are, though, the actual score/orchestration, both hand written and complete, not just excerpts.


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