# Orchestration vs arrangement??



## dannymc (Aug 10, 2015)

orchestration vs arrangement, my question is are they interlinked or separate skills? i know its vitally important to improve orchestration skills in this business but i'm wondering is arrangement a different beast altogether, or does getting better at orchestration produce a knock result of getting better at arrangement. or is top arrangement one of those purely creative skills that some composers possess over others or is it something that comes with experience? 

thanks guys


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## Zhao Shen (Aug 10, 2015)

They're quite close. My understanding of it, put simply, is that orchestration is writing for multiple parts as you're composing, whereas arrangement is taking existing material and writing out the parts. This usually results in a piece that has the spirit of the original material, but a unique touch from the arranger. So super super simplified: arrangement = orchestration based on existing material.

Edit: wording


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## Guy Bacos (Aug 10, 2015)

A good orchestrator is also an arranger as long as it is within the traditional instruments of the orchestra. However, the modern arranger, who may not be as good orchestrator, has a different kind of flexibility, more commercially skilled, will work with more modern instruments and sounds. At least that's the way I see it.


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## DocMidi657 (Aug 10, 2015)

I googled Arrangement versus Orchestration and found this article that you may find helpful. http://forum.makemusic.com/attach.aspx/16594/How to Orchestrate and Arrange Music.pdf


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## JimmyPoppa (Aug 11, 2015)

Hi All,

I wrote the following for my students, specifically to reply to the question posed by the OP. Please excuse the length:

*DEFINITIONS: Instrumentation; Music Preparation; Arranging; Orchestration*


*INSTRUMENTATION - is the study of the various musical instruments, their history, construction and functional methods as well as all the various playing techniques. It is also the study of the properties of these instruments including, the ranges, differences in tonal qualities from one register to another and the basic techniques of notation for these instruments. This is not orchestration itself. It is simply the study of the instruments themselves.*


*MUSIC PREPARATION – includes Scoring, Copying and Engraving. These are the various techniques of correctly notating music to be played by live musicians. *


· *Scoring is the correct preparation of a full score that completely represents all aspects of an entire composition.*

· *Copying is the correct preparation of all the individual parts of a score so that they can be played by instrumentalists. It can also be the preparation of a conductors score from the original composition.*

· *Engraving is the correct preparation of a musical score or parts for publication. The rules for Engraving are very specific and very strict. We will not be studying engraving in this class.*


*FYI: Instrumentation and Music Preparation are fundamental skills for Composers, Arrangers and Orchestrators. As a professional Orchestrator/Arranger you will be expected to know at least the basics of the above skills. Except for Engraving, this will definitely be a part of our course.*


*ARRANGING – is the art of creating original versions of already written compositions. Arranging can include changing the style of a piece, adding introductions, middle sections, endings, changing the original harmony with chord substitutions and voice leading as well as writing new counter melodies and other material. The key concept here is that an arranger actually changes the music by adding original material and/or changing the style. *


*ORCHESTRATION – at the most basic level, is the art of choosing and assigning various instruments to an already written composition. It is also the art of combining instruments and playing techniques in a way that brings out all the various nuances contained in a composition. Obviously, this is a very limited definition. Clearly, there is an incredibly wide range of choices for how and what instruments can be chosen and how they can be combined. *


*The key point is that, by strict definition, an orchestrator does not change the music the way an arranger does. Rather, the job of an orchestrator is to study a composition so that s/he is completely familiar with all the aspects of the piece and then to use all h/his knowledge of Instrumentation and Scoring to make choices that realize the full potential of a composition without changing the character, style or content of the piece. There are, of course, those orchestrators who only work on their own compositions and never orchestrate professionally for others. 
*
Also FYI: The NYC Musicians Union - Local 802, specifically differentiates between orchestrator and arranger. Arrangers, create original material while orchestrators do not. Instead, they assign a wide variety of instruments to play already composed material in a way that best realized the composer's intent. In the union payment schedule, orchestrators have set minimums are paid by the score page (4 measures of 10 or more lines) while arrangers set their own fees. They make their own payment schedule. AFAIK, this is the case throughout the U.S.

Hope this helps.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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## dannymc (Aug 11, 2015)

Jimmy, Doc thanks so much for two great replies.


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## careyford (Aug 11, 2015)

As a composer, these are all important skills, even essential ones in many cases. The more you do orchestration and arranging the better all your skills will be especially if when you're doing one you're thinking about the other. While orchestration won't always include arranging, when you're arranging you will also be working out orchestration even if you don't have an entire orchestra to work with. For further reference Henry Mancini's _Sounds and Scores_ is a good place to dig into this. After that Sammy Nestico's book _The Complete Arranger _is great and Nelson Riddle's book _Arranged by Nelson Riddle _is useful although you have to be willing to overlook a large number of typos.


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## careyford (Aug 11, 2015)

Just remembered Don Sebesky's book _The Contemporary Arranger._ It is also worthwhile.


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## dannymc (Aug 15, 2015)

i'm not sure if it falls under the same category to arranging but i'm also curious about cue structure. is there hard and fast tried and tested cue structures that many follow or at least start as a bassline? if so what are the common ones?

like for example in most trailer cue's the structure seems to be the following: 

1. start minimal and slowly introduce the theme.
2. introduce some extra elements moving towards a build section
3. epic big section with theme and many layers of instruments layered.
4. outro section with returning elements from the intro.

should a cue always have returning elements from the intro in the outro? 

do cue's have similar formulas? actually a lot of music i hear on the likes of the big trailer libraries such as audiomachine or immediate music seem to follow a song structure i.e. 

1. intro/verse 1
2.build/chorus
3. verse 2 with variation 
4. outro with returning elements. 

am i way off here, hope someone can explain this better to me in simple english


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## sinkd (Aug 15, 2015)

+1 for Nestico and Sebesky and Jimmy's definitions are spot on. Very specific, but there is also _Arranged by Nelson Riddle.

DS_


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## bbunker (Aug 15, 2015)

I'm not sure if this is terribly interesting - but one term that tends to be left out is Transcription. Now, most musicians today only think of that term when they're doing their own personal applications of it, usually in 'transcribing' from records, or when something is otherwise copied down from one form to another, like a radio transcription. Except that doing a 'transcription' of a solo from a record is only one form of transcribing - the idea being to convert music from one format to another without making actual change to the work. So, if I see a guitar 'transcription' and a guitar 'arrangement' then of the same work, then I know that the ideology of each version is different.

It's interesting (to me!) that many of the great 'orchestrations' in history weren't actually called that by their patrons or orchestrators - the biggest example I can think of being the Mussorgsky/Ravel 'Pictures at an Exhibition,' which Koussevitzky commissioned, was called in their correspondence a 'transcription for orchestra.'

I kind of personally consider the real dichotomy (pretentious jerk alert!) to be between Transcription and Arrangement - One seeks to hew to the letter of the original, while the other does not. So, 'orchestration?' It seems like you could have either a transcription for Orchestra or an arrangement for Orchestra, Union rules be darned. Then again, the terminology keeps shifting, so...c'est la vie.


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## JimmyPoppa (Aug 19, 2015)

bbunker,

Interesting point. I imagine it depends as much on the genre as the changing times and terminology - possibly the instrumentation as well. Certainly a guitar transcription of a Bach Klavier piece wouldn't be called an orchestration or an arrangement.

In the U.S. musicians union, _*Transcriber*_ is a category which specifically refers to a person who, as accurately as possible, writes down in musical notation all the elements of a piece of music, usually from a recording. The music is not altered at all in any way. A transcriber usually charges by the hour and that's how the union minimums are set.

In the days before recorded music, obviously there were very few ways to do this. The term transcribe, at that time, had a different meaning closer to the one you describe. I'm sure it is still used today in that older context as well but, I would imagine it to be in some genres more than others.

Anyway, it's still and interesting distinction in relation to the thread. Thanks for bringing it up.

Be Well,

Jimmy


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