# Dorico ... Don't use velocity!



## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

I have spent eons fiddling with this and have come to the conclusion that velocity is a red herring and bottomless bit of doom and misery in Orchestral scoring. You are JUST asking for trouble. 

So in the expression maps I have gone through every one and made cc1 & cc11 the only controllers. For woodwind and brass that can't really start from silence i have made the cc11 low threshold 20-40 depending on the instrument. Clarinets can start pretty quite so they are 10. Piccolo's are hopeless so they are 45.

Brass is the same

Strings can start from silence so they get 0

Now, ALL the dynamics and levels respond to Dynamic markings and hairpins. I have experimented with Dorico's playback techniques and I like a Bump on the downbeat and tiny stress on other strong beats...but tiny !

It all sounds much closer to the real thing and I can easily set up a realistic balance without having to think about velocity.

For this to work you WILL need to go through your libraries and assign cc1 to dynamics for short as well as long notes....you won't be sorry !

best

ed


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## ptram (Feb 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> So in the expression maps I have gone through every one and made cc1 & cc11 the only controllers.


I'm still not totally convinced that combining CC1 (velocity xfading between dynamic layers) and CC11 (Expression change) is really necessary. I feel it is a boost of dynamics similar to HDR in photography.

Please, convince me of the contrary, and tell me that CC1 gives too little a dynamic range.

Paolo


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## wcreed51 (Feb 14, 2022)

Sorry to be dense... You use CC1 for velocity crossfade?


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## Vlzmusic (Feb 14, 2022)

For short/medium notes, if CC1 takes the job of choosing the needed dynamic, fine, but if it becomes a crossfade - big no no.


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## Tralen (Feb 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I have spent eons fiddling with this and have come to the conclusion that velocity is a red herring and bottomless bit of doom and misery in Orchestral scoring. You are JUST asking for trouble.
> 
> So in the expression maps I have gone through every one and made cc1 & cc11 the only controllers. For woodwind and brass that can't really start from silence i have made the cc11 low threshold 20-40 depending on the instrument. Clarinets can start pretty quite so they are 10. Piccolo's are hopeless so they are 45.
> 
> ...


This might work with libraries that have the attack sound baked in the articulation, but for modeled instruments (Sample Modeling, Aaron Venture, SWAM), Velocity is what is used to shape the attack (soft, hard, marcato, etc) so you do need to control it.


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> Sorry to be dense... You use CC1 for velocity crossfade?


YES

e


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

ptram said:


> I'm still not totally convinced that combining CC1 (velocity xfading between dynamic layers) and CC11 (Expression change) is really necessary. I feel it is a boost of dynamics similar to HDR in photography.
> 
> Please, convince me of the contrary, and tell me that CC1 gives too little a dynamic range.
> 
> Paolo


it is with many samples. The CC1 at its lowest with many samples isn't low enough for the lowest dynamic TBH

best

e


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

Tralen said:


> This might work with libraries that have the attack sound baked in the articulation, but for modeled instruments (Sample Modeling, Aaron Venture, SWAM), Velocity is what is used to shape the attack (soft, hard, marcato, etc) so you do need to control it.


Very True

e


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

Vlzmusic said:


> For short/medium notes, if CC1 takes the job of choosing the needed dynamic, fine, but if it becomes a crossfade - big no no.


actually works great on sustains 

best

e


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## Vlzmusic (Feb 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> actually works great on sustains
> 
> best
> 
> e


Crossfades on a sustain is the inevitable compromise we have to deal with now, and some things as solo WW cannot use it at all. But why would anyone wish to crossfade shorts?
So unless CC1 just takes over the velocity job, without introducing any crossfades for shorts - the idea sounds 🤔


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

Vlzmusic said:


> Crossfades on a sustain is the inevitable compromise we have to deal with now, and some things as solo WW cannot use it at all. But why would anyone wish to crossfade shorts?
> So unless CC1 just takes over the velocity job, without introducing any crossfades for shorts - the idea sounds 🤔


sorry i'm not with you !.....CC1 is acting as velocity on shorts

best

e


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## Bollen (Feb 14, 2022)

This makes no sense… What library are you referring to? Does it have real dynamic control or is it just a filter/amplitude modulator? What if CC1 is hard coded to vibrato?

Also, speaking as an orchestrator/arranger I have to say: clarinets can certainly start from nothing even more so than strings. Brass, woodwinds and strings have completely different dynamic curves and ranges e.g. a saxophone can play as loud as a trumpet and as quiet as a single violin. 

Until we have well-trained and intelligent AI, we're stuck doing things manually if you want 'realistic' behaviour out of a notation program.


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

Bollen said:


> This makes no sense… What library are you referring to? Does it have real dynamic control or is it just a filter/amplitude modulator? What if CC1 is hard coded to vibrato?
> 
> Also, speaking as an orchestrator/arranger I have to say: clarinets can certainly start from nothing even more so than strings. Brass, woodwinds and strings have completely different dynamic curves and ranges e.g. a saxophone can play as loud as a trumpet and as quiet as a single violin.
> 
> Until we have well-trained and intelligent AI, we're stuck doing things manually if you want 'realistic' behaviour out of a notation program.


lot's, and it isn't ! I can't think of a library that has CC1 automatically coded to Vibrato. And of course it's not real. But it's as close as I can get in my studio.

best

e


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## Henu (Feb 14, 2022)

Speaking of which, I'd kill to control CSS/CSB shorts with modwheel once in a while. Especially when I'm writing sections. Has anyone figured out how to do it?

I can't find a switch from those libraries to save my life. Spitfire has it, Cinesamples has it (but boy is it buggy) and many others sport it as well, but Alex's libraries don't seem to have the option available. If anyone has an idea how to circumvent it with midi input filters and/or logical presets, I'd be very delighted to hear a tip or two.


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## Jett Hitt (Feb 14, 2022)

The velocity editor is broken, so of course you’re having trouble. It is on the list of things to be fixed in this month’s update.


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> The velocity editor is broken, so of course you’re having trouble. It is on the list of things to be fixed in this month’s update.


but I don't need it !

e


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## JJP (Feb 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> but I don't need it !
> 
> e


Somebody send a note to the folks at Steinberg that they can cross that off the to-do list. Ed doesn't need it.


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## ptram (Feb 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> it is with many samples. The CC1 at its lowest with many samples isn't low enough for the lowest dynamic TBH


Apart for going down to zero, I was thinking that you were using the linked CC11 as a dynamic booster or multiplier. I've seen someone using this double control on the dynamics.

I've still to be convinced I like it, but it's probably because I've always used it without fine-tuning the CC11 range, as you did.

Paolo


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## ed buller (Feb 14, 2022)

ptram said:


> Apart for going down to zero, I was thinking that you were using the linked CC11 as a dynamic booster or multiplier. I've seen someone using this double control on the dynamics.
> 
> I've still to be convinced I like it, but it's probably because I've always used it without fine-tuning the CC11 range, as you did.
> 
> Paolo


it's a faff, but Dorico lets you do this with the expression map. Giving a basic level contour for every articulation. 

But I will need some velocity as BBC spitfire won't let me use cc1 instead !

I'll have to tell the Dorico team i've changed my mind

e


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## JJP (Feb 14, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I'll have to tell the Dorico team i've changed my mind



Somebody send a note to the folks at Steinberg that they can put that back on the to-do list. Ed needs it.


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## cmillar (Feb 15, 2022)

(....all of which is why many people just stick with NotePerformer for getting a decent rendition of their music before passing it off to real musicians .....)


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## ed buller (Feb 15, 2022)

cmillar said:


> (....all of which is why many people just stick with NotePerformer for getting a decent rendition of their music before passing it off to real musicians .....)


well they are missing out !

Straight out of Dorico

View attachment SAUTILLE STRINGS DYNAMICS - Flow 1.mp3







Best

e


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## Nickie Fønshauge (Feb 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I have experimented with Dorico's playback techniques and I like a Bump on the downbeat and tiny stress on other strong beats...but tiny !


So, how do you achieve this when you don't use velocity?


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## ed buller (Feb 15, 2022)

Nickie Fønshauge said:


> So, how do you achieve this when you don't use velocity?


this was a berlin strings patch. So on their player it's really easy. Just click on the spanner in the interface above the patch ( if it's the multi ) and switch to "crossfades cc1"

In the Expression maps on Dorico :






Set Volume Dynamic to Control Change 1 and secondary to Control Change 11. This you might need to tweak as its the final balance against other patches. So for instance if the quite ( ppp ) setting is too low start at 20 or 30 

So any note I play in ro enter via the alpha numeric is the same velocity. So that's NOT going to affect the sound. Then the patches automatically set the right level for the dynamic and have the right gradient for others. 

best

e


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## Nickie Fønshauge (Feb 15, 2022)

I get all this, Ed, but you said you like a Bump on the downbeat and tiny stress on other strong beats. As far as I understand it, Dorico normally achieves this automatically by raising the velocity a bit on said notes, but if you don't use velocity at all, do the CCs you use then get get "bumped" by Dorico? The expression maps seem to be time-agnostic. Is there a setting somewhere, that allows you to specify how strong beats are to be played?


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## ed buller (Feb 15, 2022)

The downbeats addition will still work . Velocity isn’t ignored . It’s Just being directed to xfades on samples . And I’m not using it ( other than the bumps discussed)



Best

E


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## ptram (Feb 15, 2022)

Nickie Fønshauge said:


> if you don't use velocity at all, do the CCs you use then get get "bumped" by Dorico?


Dorico uses the expression map to generate the needed controls. So, if you chose CC1 for dynamics, it will use that control to generate its automatic 'humanized' dynamic variations.

I don't know if this also happens on the secondary dynamic control, but I bet it does, since they are working in paralllel.

Paolo


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## ed buller (Feb 15, 2022)

Ah! So velocities are bypassed!

I’m still learning 

E


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## youngpokie (Feb 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> this was a berlin strings patch.


I'm not sure about SINE, but the Kontakt version of Berlin Strings does use Note Velocity in addition to CC1 in some patches. For example, the Legato patch uses velocity to trigger either a softer attack (below SV20), default value based on 3 playing speeds (between SV and HV) or a portamento (above HV110).

*



*

Could you explain how you balance your tutti at various dynamics? I'm asking because you're adding CC11 into the mix, so do you do anything at all about the dynamic curve in Dorico itself? And if not, how do you balance everything?


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## Bollen (Feb 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> lot's, and it isn't ! I can't think of a library that has CC1 automatically coded to Vibrato. And of course it's not real. But it's as close as I can get in my studio.
> 
> best
> 
> e


Perhaps I did not explain myself properly, I meant you can't generalise since libraries are not standard i.e. some are sampled down to ppp, some just p. Others go to the maximum possible fff, whilst others have a very controlled ff. If you mix developers, like many of us do, these formulas won't work.

In terms of CC1, can't confirm without checking, but Chris Hein and SampleModeling come to mind.

In any case I couldn't agree more about velocity on sustain instruments. Velocity should be used only for percussion, keyboards and plucked strings. Any instrument that can sustain a note should use a Continuous Controller as a matter of principle!


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## labyrinths (Feb 15, 2022)

I'm not a Dorico user, but I've been contemplating setting up my template to use CC1 for all dynamics, including shorts (with exceptions for piano and percussion that I prefer to play in directly). When using articulation maps with longs and shorts on the same track, I'm not sure how anyone is happy switching from CC1 curves to velocity from note to note in phrases with mixed articulations.


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## ed buller (Feb 15, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> Could you explain how you balance your tutti at various dynamics? I'm asking because you're adding CC11 into the mix, so do you do anything at all about the dynamic curve in Dorico itself? And if not, how do you balance everything?


So there various points where this can be addressed. VEP is the first . Brass, WW, Strings and Perc all have separate instances. So volume can be addressed their. 

As for dynamic curve it's trail and error. I have started by making some long held chords with a gradual increase from ppp to fff and back. Same with stactto notes. It's a work in progress but from this i'll gather enough info. Brass is the problem. When all is said and done at fff Trombones and Trumpets demolish most things. 

best

e


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## Daryl (Feb 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> So there various points where this can be addressed. VEP is the first . Brass, WW, Strings and Perc all have separate instances. So volume can be addressed their.
> 
> As for dynamic curve it's trail and error. I have started by making some long held chords with a gradual increase from ppp to fff and back. Same with stactto notes. It's a work in progress but from this i'll gather enough info. Brass is the problem. When all is said and done at fff Trombones and Trumpets demolish most things.
> 
> ...


With a real orchestra, at fff, Trombones and Trumpets demolish everything.


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## Jett Hitt (Feb 15, 2022)

Daryl said:


> With a real orchestra, at fff, Trombones and Trumpets demolish everything.


Except piccolo. It'll still burst your eardrums!


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## youngpokie (Feb 15, 2022)

labyrinths said:


> I'm not sure how anyone is happy switching from CC1 curves to velocity from note to note in phrases with mixed articulations.


Perhaps it depends on the DAW and the overall strategy you use for dynamics.

For example, the Dorico approach (merging CC controller and Note Velocity) comes directly from Cubase. If you enable the setting in Cubase to apply VST3 dynamics, it will work in a very similar way to what Dorico does. Of course, the way it's presented to the user is very different, but the ideas are nearly identical: merging CC and Velocity into a single dynamics stream, making that stream respond to text labels ("ppp" and "ff", etc) and even adjusting the curve with which the stream is applied to fine tune the gradation between loud and quiet dynamics.

Personally, I would prefer that every developer used velocity to shape the attack and CC to control the sustain phase of articulations. In this context, it makes sense to have percussion, pizzicato and most shorts triggered by velocity - they don't have much of the sustain phase to speak of. But it really shines when it comes to modelling instruments. Using a SWAM woodwind, I can easily create a pretty decent portato articulation in the expression map simply by bumping note velocities slightly _within_ a legato articulation.




ed buller said:


> So there various points where this can be addressed.



Yes, I agree. There's the dynamic scaling slider in Berlin Strings, then there is the global and local curve in Dorico and then there's the dynamic marking in the score that's different per instrument in the same phrase.

In my opinion, it's a mess and achieving some basic scaling from ppp to fff that's vaguely realistic is a nightmare. That's why I can't understand how you're not making it even more complicated by adding yet another variable: CC11 that's dynamic and not static/balanced in the map. If I'm getting it right, simply latching CC11 to default dynamics would result in a huge dynamic range that physically cannot exist - and it would sit on top of the Dorico curve that already exaggerates it somewhat. So I was just curious what you see as the advantage of this and how you control the range of CC11.


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## Daryl (Feb 15, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> Except piccolo. It'll still burst your eardrums!


True, but only above a certain range, and even then, if you're not that close you're relatively safe...!


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## Tralen (Feb 15, 2022)

Bollen said:


> Perhaps I did not explain myself properly, I meant you can't generalise since libraries are not standard i.e. some are sampled down to ppp, some just p. Others go to the maximum possible fff, whilst others have a very controlled ff. If you mix developers, like many of us do, these formulas won't work.
> 
> In terms of CC1, can't confirm without checking, but Chris Hein and SampleModeling come to mind.
> 
> In any case I couldn't agree more about velocity on sustain instruments. Velocity should be used only for percussion, keyboards and plucked strings. Any instrument that can sustain a note should use a Continuous Controller as a matter of principle!


Samplemodeling doesn't lock CC1 to vibrato, you can freely assign it. Don't know about Hein.


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## ed buller (Feb 15, 2022)

Daryl said:


> With a real orchestra, at fff, Trombones and Trumpets demolish everything.


except piccolo and glock !

e


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## ed buller (Feb 15, 2022)

youngpokie said:


> In my opinion, it's a mess and achieving some basic scaling from ppp to fff that's vaguely realistic is a nightmare. That's why I can't understand how you're not making it even more complicated by adding yet another variable: CC11 that's dynamic and not static/balanced in the map. If I'm getting it right, simply latching CC11 to default dynamics would result in a huge dynamic range that physically cannot exist - and it would sit on top of the Dorico curve that already exaggerates it somewhat. So I was just curious what you see as the advantage of this and how you control the range of CC11.


well I've disabled the Dorico Curve. The dynamic range from niente to full beans in an orchestra is huge. I don't think it's being exaggerated . In fact the opposite . 

The simplicity of disabling velocity ( where I can ) for me is that it takes out the random element . A note will only occur at a fixed dynamic ( one of 10 ). It can quickly move from that point to any other. This is all ( for the most part ) controlled by one parameter . As to mess I don't agree. Yes I am severely limited by the samples but using CC11 as well as CC1 tackles that rather neatly. Also the fact that both are totally independent AND completely variable on EVERY patch used, is a godsend. So if the pizz's are say unrealistically loud compared to the Staccato's ..easy fix. and this will ALWAY be present. 

best

ed


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## wcreed51 (Feb 15, 2022)

Is there a way to change the dynamic settings in an expression map globally, without having to do it over and over for each entry?


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## ptram (Feb 15, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> Is there a way to change the dynamic settings in an expression map globally, without having to do it over and over for each entry?


Select them all, and then edit the dynamic settings.

Paolo


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## andyhy (Feb 15, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> Is there a way to change the dynamic settings in an expression map globally, without having to do it over and over for each entry?


In my experience the variations between different sample library developers are quite marked so I tend to have a model EM for each that I can duplicate or adjust to save me time. I just change, remove or add to my model. Then I add note conditions etc. to refine each EM. The Dorico forum has been a great source of shared knowledge on EMs for me. It's recommended practice that once you've create new EMs in a project you export them to a peer folder, in the same way you would if someone asked you to share a Dorico EM, so you can import them to other projects. This saves a lot of time in the long run.


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## wcreed51 (Feb 16, 2022)

Thanks Paolo. Now... I modify an EM. When I use it in another project the changes aren't there. How do I replace the default EMs that show up on the list? How do I update a Playback Template to use the new EMs?


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## Woodie1972 (Apr 20, 2022)

Tralen said:


> Samplemodeling doesn't lock CC1 to vibrato, you can freely assign it. Don't know about Hein.


Freely assignable.


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## ptram (Apr 20, 2022)

wcreed51 said:


> I modify an EM. When I use it in another project the changes aren't there. How do I replace the default EMs that show up on the list? How do I update a Playback Template to use the new EMs?


Loading the Expression Map again should work. With Dorico 4, you also have the Library Manager for this, but I've yet to understand if it works in replacing EMs.

Paolo


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## Al Maurice (Apr 20, 2022)

Hi All,

This help page might help here: https://steinberg.help/dorico_eleme...library/library_expression_maps_dialog_r.html


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## SteveStudio (May 15, 2022)

I'm a newby to Dorico but am thoroughly enjoying the learning curve. At some point I hope to understand more of what you guys are discussing!  

*Background*
So far, I have set up a template in VEPro using BBC SO Pro and have been able to get everything to play in Dorico 4. I know I need to take a dive to see how expression maps are set up in the free BBC SO template I have from Spitfire -- as a starting point to learning how they work and as a launch pad to create my own. But right now, I am simply trying to learn how to manually draw in dynamics and expression. I just want to create a reasonably good complete orchestral piece before circling back to go deeper into the wonderful world of expression maps.

*Question*
But... I am stuck on something that is probably trivial for the more experienced composers here: for the life of me, I cannot figure out what Dorico means by "velocity" as opposed to "CC1" in the Playing Techniques window. I thought that velocity = dynamics = CC1. (In case it's helpful, https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3o811jcdkq8bmp/Dorico-forum-Velocity-vs-CC1.mp4?dl=0 (here is a quick video showing what I mean).)


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

CC1 is Modulation. Velocity is Velocity . It's NOT a CC....i'd turn it off. Life is much easier. 

best

ed


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## SteveStudio (May 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> CC1 is Modulation. Velocity is Velocity . It's NOT a CC....i'd turn it off. Life is much easier.
> 
> best
> 
> ed


So, here's my confusion, then. Let's say I have a piano score. Assuming the sample supports it, CC1 should mimic a pianist changing the velocity with which he plays a key. The greater the CC1, the greater the velocity with which the key is played. I guess I just don't get how velocity and dynamics differ. Sorry to be so dense.


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

It's a deep dive that's for sure but if you spend time setting up your expresion maps and template you can get really good results with samples. Different league to noteperformer. 

Dynamics are CC signals that you set up in the expresion maps. You also have global control of the curve. I'd suggest 1.85. This is the most even spread I have found for FFFF to PPPP. The jumps seem reasonable 

best

ed


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> So, here's my confusion, then. Let's say I have a piano score. Assuming the sample supports it, CC1 should mimic a pianist changing the velocity with which he plays a key. The great the CC1, the greater the velocity with which the key is played. I guess I just to get how velocity and dynamics differ. Sorry to be so dense.


your aren't dense. It's a minefield. First off, most samples respond to CC7 and 11 to control volume. Piano's sorta rely on Velocity because it's trad. But with a score you need to get to a place where the things that a score does controls the music. Which is TEXT. So i'd turn off velocity and just use dynamics. 

Forgetting piano for the moment most orchestral samples use cc1 ( mod wheel ) to control dynamics, Some you have to switch to this method. If you do this then you can specify what dynamic you want from the markings. Just pick this in the expression maps. Those are how Dorico's notes ans text's talk to your samples

best

ed


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## SteveStudio (May 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> It's a deep dive that's for sure but if you spend time setting up your expresion maps and template you can get really good results with samples. Different league to noteperformer.
> 
> Dynamics are CC signals that you set up in the expresion maps. You also have global control of the curve. I'd suggest 1.85. This is the most even spread I have found for FFFF to PPPP. The jumps seem reasonable
> 
> ...


So, that makes sense -- just use CC1 for dynamics in my expression maps. The reason, if I'm following you, is because when I notate, say, a hairpin, I want the dynamics to change automatically for playback without having to manually draw in the CC1 values. (Do I understand you correctly?)

Why does Dorico provide Dynamics, then, if CC1 does the job? And which should I use if I want to manually draw in dynamics, which is what I'm trying to do right at the moment?


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> So, that makes sense -- just use CC1 for dynamics in my expression maps. The reason, if I'm following you, is because when I notate, say, a hairpin, I want the dynamics to change automatically for playback without having to manually draw in the CC1 values. (Do I understand you correctly?)


yes !...but...CC1 only applies IF your sample library responds to it. Otherwise use 11. You also should set a default value in the INIT section. I put cc1,cc11,cc7 all at 100. Then any subsequent marking will overrule this.



SteveStudio said:


> Why does Dorico provide Dynamics, then, if CC1 does the job? And which should I use if I want to manually draw in dynamics, which is what I'm trying to do right at the moment?



Well dorico provides dynamics as a text. It shows it as a cc lane too ( though tbh i find this confusing and I don't think it's working in the latest update .

It's up to you to set the dynamics as a CC in the expresion maps. You can have 2 CC choices...i'd avoid this.

best

ed


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## DaddyO (May 15, 2022)

Isn't there a rationale for using Velocity in some cases?

For piano realism, you want each note to have independence with regard to the nature of the "keystroke." A good pianist can emphasize one or more notes in a single chord or arpeggio. Percussion hits are another example where velocity works well. And closely packed notes of varying intensity are most easily recorded or entered using velocity (where appropriate) compared to CC value, and velocity in those cases is (more?) easily editable by note. Moving CC values wildly up and down is no enhancement over varying velocity.

To be sure, Dorico covers this by supporting the assignment of CC values to velocity. But in these cases there is no advantage to doing so.

Of course with drum rolls or gradual but consistent dynamic changes over time (crescendos and diminuendos) drawing CC lines and curves is much easier than worrying about the velocity of individual notes. 

VSL as an example (I'm sure you're already familiar with this) provides Synchron presets for CC X-fade only but also for using CC X-fade for sustained notes and velocity for shorts, where intensity change over time is not so useful. 

Having said that, I don't use velocity because I am spastic when it comes to playing the piano, especially with regard to keystroke sensitivity. Being older I have begun to experience hand and muscle tremors. I don't "play in" record live, I only play in one note (or chord) at a time in note entry.

If I WAS a good pianist, I would definitely use that to my advantage and use velocity instead of CC when circumstance warranted.

(Not trying to be contrary, just trying to be sensitive that others might read this thread and think that velocity is passe.)


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

DaddyO said:


> (Not trying to be contrary, just trying to be sensitive that others might read this thread and think that velocity is passe.)


it's NOT passe...and indeed if it where a normal DAW and i was being surgical.....absolutely...for a piano...kinda a must. But pretty much everything else...no not for me and the way I use Dorico. It's just throwing another potential control issue in the mix. So i've banned it and just use CC's. 

best

ed


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## SteveStudio (May 15, 2022)

Sounds very good. Ed, you're showing what's possible, and providing very strong incentive for me to follow on the path you're on by seeing how far I can get just inside Dorico without moving the project to Cubase. Are you doing any kind of compression or reverb, btw?


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> Sounds very good. Ed, you're showing what's possible, and providing very strong incentive for me to follow on the path you're on by seeing how far I can get just inside Dorico without moving the project to Cubase. Are you doing any kind of compression or reverb, btw?


Yes

I am adding compression, reverb all over the place. Mostly very subtle. It's taking a while to get it to work. Dynamics are the hardest as so far there is no quick solution to controlling individual articulation levels easily. Hopeful in the future there may be a dynamic control per expression map for each dynamic marling. THAT would be great

e

View attachment Flightrisk.mp3


best

e


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## SteveStudio (May 15, 2022)

Ed, I think a lightbulb just turned on and I might possibly understand this a little better. Let's see...

In looking at the articulation maps created in the Dorico BBC SO Pro template I got via Spitfire, I see most articulations use CC 1 for dynamics and CC 11 or volume, but a few, notably short notes such as pizz., use note velocity in lieu of CC 1. I discovered through trial and error that, with those short notes, changing the velocity in Dorico's Playing Techniques section works if and only if the particular note articulation used is one that was mapped to "Note velocity" in the expression map setting and that other notes mapped to CC 1 respond only to the CC 1 values in automation. If I'm right, I think I now see how the expression map condition for any particular articulation is, in effect, a Boolean value that determines whether the values in the automation need to use the articulation-mapped velocity, CC 1, CC 11, etc.

So, just so I'm clear, you're pursuing the holy grail of being able to notate in text without having to touch automation. Right? In other words, for some reason, you don't want to have to use automation?

Also, am I correct that you advocate that I should change those short-note mappings in the above-noted template that currently use note velocity to CC 1?

(Thanks for your patience with my newby questions.)


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## Ivan Duch (May 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Yes
> 
> I am adding compression, reverb all over the place. Mostly very subtle. It's taking a while to get it to work. Dynamics are the hardest as so far there is no quick solution to controlling individual articulation levels easily. Hopeful in the future there may be a dynamic control per expression map for each dynamic marling. THAT would be great
> 
> ...



Ed, I've been following your posts on Dorico. Thanks for sharing all that, very inspiring. Been wanting for a notation based workflow for a long time and it looks like you're pretty much there. The fact that you're being able to bypass the DAW for such a large part of the workflow is mind blowing.

I started following your steps and got Dorico Elements from Bestservice (Still waiting for the license after 1 week, though).

Two questions:

1. I'm wondering if I'll be able to start seriously experimenting with your approach with the Elements version, any clue on that? As you I use a ton of libraries and I'm not sure Elements have the custom playing techniques thing for creating your own custom articulations.

2. Have you noticed a big increase in work speed thanks to your new Dorico workflow? Compared to a DAW I mean.


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> Ed, I think a lightbulb just turned on and I might possibly understand this a little better. Let's see...
> 
> In looking at the articulation maps created in the Dorico BBC SO Pro template I got via Spitfire, I see most articulations use CC 1 for dynamics and CC 11 or volume, but a few, notably short notes such as pizz., use note velocity in lieu of CC 1. I discovered through trial and error that, with those short notes, changing the velocity in Dorico's Playing Techniques section works if and only if the particular note articulation used is one that was mapped to "Note velocity" in the expression map setting and that other notes mapped to CC 1 respond only to the CC 1 values in automation. If I'm right, I think I now see how the expression map condition for any particular articulation is, in effect, a Boolean value that determines whether the values in the automation need to use the articulation-mapped velocity, CC 1, CC 11, etc.
> 
> ...


First off you need to set up the LIBRARY VST PLAYER you are using to map ALL dynamics to a cc value and NOT velocity. That is where the decision occurs. Then when creating your expression maps make sure that for each expression you select the CC controller. I'd leave the spread from 0 to 127. I use 1 as ALL my libraries have that as a dynamic controller. You are of course limited to weather they have sampled 11 dynamic layers. Hans is the only person I know to have done this. 

I'd also set the Playback Options , Dynamic curve to between 1-2. There is a silly jump from MP to MF that I just can't get rid of but all else is pretty smooth.

Then disable that as an option in the expression map as that will negate your setting. 

Yes my goal is to sit at my computer and write music into a score, using standard notation and have instant playback as good as CUBASE....i'm pretty close.

best

e


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> 1. I'm wondering if I'll be able to start seriously experimenting with your approach with the Elements version, any clue on that? As you I use a ton of libraries and I'm not sure Elements have the custom expression thing for creating your own custom articulations.


I'm not sure either. You can easily upgrade.



Ivan Duch said:


> 2. Have you noticed a big increase in work speed thanks to your new Dorico workflow? Compared to a DAW I mean.


Yes massive. I actually have a template score that has the full orch and underneath a sketch. That plays my Abbey Road VST. So I start on that ( and piano ) and when it's written copy the various parts up into the big score.







This works a treat !


Best

Ed


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## SteveStudio (May 15, 2022)

This makes sense. 



ed buller said:


> First off you need to set up the LIBRARY VST PLAYER you are using to map ALL dynamics to a cc value and NOT velocity. That is where the decision occurs.


In quickly looking at the proprietary player Spitfire uses for BBC SO, I don't see where dynamics can be mapped go a CC value -- but I'll research this and figure it out! 



ed buller said:


> Yes my goal is to sit at my computer and write music into a score, using standard notation and have instant playback as good as CUBASE....i'm pretty close.


I now understand what you are chasing, Ed. I'm inspired!


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## SteveStudio (May 15, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> In quickly looking at the proprietary player Spitfire uses for BBC SO, I don't see where dynamics can be mapped go a CC value -- but I'll research this and figure it out!


Okay, I think I see how that's done in the Spitfire player. Right click on the dynamics control...


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

SteveStudio said:


> Okay, I think I see how that's done in the Spitfire player. Right click on the dynamics control...










Top right hand corner, select "VEL MAPPED TO DYNAMICS"

best

e


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## SteveStudio (May 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> Top right hand corner, select "VEL MAPPED TO DYNAMICS"


Oh, got it! Zow, I can't wait to dive in. Very cool. Many thanks, Ed, for your patience with my endless questions.


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## Ivan Duch (May 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> I'm not sure either. You can easily upgrade.
> 
> 
> Yes massive. I actually have a template score that has the full orch and underneath a sketch. That plays my Abbey Road VST. So I start on that ( and piano ) and when it's written copy the various parts up into the big score.
> ...


Thank for the reply. 

Just checked, and it doesn't include the custom playing techniques. I wonder if I'll be able to get by with the existing ones. I don't want to make the full investment until I've better tested the app and the workflow, but I'm doubting myself on that one, haha. 

As for Abbey Road workflow. That's exactly what I had in mind, first sketching on Abbey Road One (which I own), and then moving to my other more detailed libraries. I also own BBCSO, Appassionata. 

What do you think of putting together a thread for posting our custom expression maps? I have several libraries for which I'll be creating expression maps for sure.


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> What do you think of putting together a thread for posting our custom expression maps? I have several libraries for which I'll be creating expression maps for sure.


sure!...good idea

best

e


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## Ivan Duch (May 15, 2022)

ed buller said:


> sure!...good idea
> 
> best
> 
> e


Awesome. I already worked on creating some expression maps for my audio imperia solo library (using Dorico SE) Which I find works great for the expression maps.

I'm under the impression I'll have a way harder time with more flexible stuff like infinite series and samplemodeling strings which I also use. But got good results playing those into Dorico manually.


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## synergy543 (May 15, 2022)

Ed, have you discussed and shared your process with John Barron? He's making additional maps for various libraries and it might make sense to gather the best ideas (and minds) and put these together to create the best collective process rather than end up with several different methods.


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## Ivan Duch (May 15, 2022)

I just created a thread for discussing and indexing our expression maps.

Thread 'Dorico: Expression Maps Library' https://vi-control.net/community/threads/dorico-expression-maps-library.125118/


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

synergy543 said:


> Ed, have you discussed and shared your process with John Barron? He's making additional maps for various libraries and it might make sense to gather the best ideas (and minds) and put these together to create the best collective process rather than end up with several different methods.


I have yes. He has been very helpful

best

e


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## DaddyO (May 16, 2022)

ed buller said:


> it's NOT passe...and indeed if it where a normal DAW and i was being surgical.....absolutely...for a piano...kinda a must. But pretty much everything else...no not for me and the way I use Dorico. It's just throwing another potential control issue in the mix. So i've banned it and just use CC's.
> 
> best
> 
> ed


Ah, gotcha.


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## NuNativs (May 16, 2022)

But what if you want to add synths and hold down some pads and twist some knobs? I understand this works from a purely orchestral perspective, but what if you are composing more hybrid cues? That's where notation doesn't make sense to me.


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## ed buller (May 16, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> But what if you want to add synths and hold down some pads and twist some knobs? I understand this works from a purely orchestral perspective, but what if you are composing more hybrid cues? That's where notation doesn't make sense to me.


no..it doesn't really. As all a score would show is long held notes ! I am using Dorico to write and perform pretty much orchestral cues. As soon as i need a synth, i'd go to CUBASE and do it in there. My interest in Dorico is as an orchestral writing and performance tool. For that it's wonderful. 

best

e


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## NuNativs (May 16, 2022)

Actually you brought up my struggle. Is the keyboard a limitation when composing? Do I spend time upgrading my keyboard chops so that I don't get stuck with the same cliche moves, or do I just focus on being a writer when music composition is my goal NOT to perform on keyboards?


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## ed buller (May 16, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Actually you brought up my struggle. Is the keyboard a limitation when composing? Do I spend time upgrading my keyboard chops so that I don't get stuck with the same cliche moves, or do I just focus on being a writer when music composition is my goal NOT to perform on keyboards?


no not really. Most of the great composers were decent or fantastic pianists. Notwithstanding the business of dynamics and lack of sustains the piano is a great tool for writing music...but orchestras aren't made up of pianos. Most of the instruments are basically monophonic and have idiosyncrasies that make them interesting. So writing idiomatically IS very very important if you want to write convincing orchestral music. Otherwise it just sounds like a giant synth patch !.

As to upgrading your chops. Yes if your composing is limited to your "moves" it might be worth addressing at some point. Composing should be by design rather than just free improvising in most cases..................unless your Keith Jarrett

best

e


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## NuNativs (May 16, 2022)

Thanks Ed, I really appreciate your input. Now, back to Dorico!


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> But what if you want to add synths and hold down some pads and twist some knobs? I understand this works from a purely orchestral perspective, but what if you are composing more hybrid cues? That's where notation doesn't make sense to me.



I noticed playing around with Dorico that the live recording is quite good so writing synths parts there is also an option. I was considering of including those more textural elements in my score as well by playing the cc. 

You can even re-record cc data over an already written part. I've been testing writing stuff using the step method and then recording cc data on top for giving it more expression for example. 

But I use synths just for textural elements, pretty much like Austin Wintory does here:


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## Bollen (May 16, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> I noticed playing around with Dorico that the live recording is quite good so writing synths parts there is also an option. I was considering of including those more textural elements in my score as well by playing the cc.
> 
> You can even re-record cc data over an already written part. I've been testing writing stuff using the step method and then recording cc data on top for giving it more expression for example.
> 
> But I use synths just for textural elements, pretty much like Austin Wintory does here:



I've written a lot of scores with synths added (mostly film work) and I've always used notation. In the day of Sibelius I had to use the CC plugin which was a nightmare and constant trial and error. In Dorico it's a breeze...


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## Ivan Duch (May 16, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I've written a lot of scores with synths added (mostly film work) and I've always used notation. In the day of Sibelius I had to use the CC plugin which was a nightmare and constant trial and error. In Dorico it's a breeze...


Very interesting! Looking forward to doing the same.


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## ed buller (May 16, 2022)

Dorico's biggest challenge is still accurate dynamics. I think it is better at this than Noteperformer but it still could do with some help.

The most comprehensive way would be to add another panel here under the CC allocation. This would have a list of _ *pppp, ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, fff, ffff * _and what value ( for the above cc chosen ) to put there.






This would allow users to control the volume of every articulation in the expression map, at every realistic dynamic , a huge advantage when trying to get libraries to sound consistent.

The difference in Instrument balance between the two renditions is very striking. I have made no attempt to correct this. This is just playback straight from the software with dynamic markings and articulations .

Noteperformer:

View attachment Flight Risk Noteperformer - Flight Risk v8Dom fiddle BBC.mp3


Samples:

View attachment Flight Risk Xtra Trump - Flight Risk v8Dom fiddle BBC.mp3


Best

e


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## Ivan Duch (May 21, 2022)

@ed buller, I've been working on my Dorico Pro template. One challenge I'm finding in creating the final mockup on a DAW is that in a DAW I can freeze tracks and render them to audio, so I keep hearing them while saving resources.

Is anything like that possible with Dorico? Do you have any trick for when you run out of ram or CPU in any given composition? 

Thank you!


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## ed buller (May 21, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> @ed buller, I've been working on my Dorico Pro template. One challenge I'm finding in creating the final mockup on a DAW is that in a DAW I can freeze tracks and render them to audio, so I keep hearing them while saving resources.
> 
> Is anything like that possible with Dorico? Do you have any trick for when you run out of ram or CPU in any given composition?
> 
> Thank you!


well don't host the samples in Dorico. You MUST use VSL VEpro...other wise it just can't handle it

best

e


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## Ivan Duch (May 21, 2022)

ed buller said:


> well don't host the samples in Dorico. You MUST use VSL VEpro...other wise it just can't handle it
> 
> best
> 
> e


Thanks Ed. I'm currently demoing VEP and also using Reaper as a host for Dorico. So yes, Dorico is out of the question for handling VSTs, causes too many issues on my end. 

That said, I'm curious about a workflow where you might need to render tracks to audio to save resources. 

In a DAW I have to do that from time to time, especially when dealing with CPU-intensive stuff like Infinite Series. 
The good thing about the DAW is that once I render it audio I can still hear it. Not possible with a Dorico workflow, right? That'd be my first assumption since it doesn't handle audio. 

That said, I'm happy with getting as far as I can within Dorico before giving the final touches on a DAW. 

So far, Dorico has been really helping my composition process.


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## Bollen (May 23, 2022)

Ivan Duch said:


> @ed buller, I've been working on my Dorico Pro template. One challenge I'm finding in creating the final mockup on a DAW is that in a DAW I can freeze tracks and render them to audio, so I keep hearing them while saving resources.
> 
> Is anything like that possible with Dorico? Do you have any trick for when you run out of ram or CPU in any given composition?
> 
> Thank you!


I've requested it as a feature here. If you can add your vote to it, we might get closer to seeing it. You don't need to be a Dorico owner to join the forum.


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## Ivan Duch (May 24, 2022)

Bollen said:


> I've requested it as a feature here. If you can add your vote to it, we might get closer to seeing it. You don't need to be a Dorico owner to join the forum.


I just posted. Thanks for sharing.


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