# What is going on?



## Dan Mott (Feb 16, 2012)

>8o ~o) 

I have moved my desk in every position I can in the room. I have tried putting panels in every spot. I have tried moving the speakers back and forth and wider, to narrow.

Maybe it's my speakers. I have a terrible muddy annoyance between 130Hz and 155Hz. It's making the bass sound boxy and I can't even hear lower bass anywhere.

Why is this happening!!

I've almost given up on acoustics. I got some bass traps and diffusers/absorpers. It must be my speakers or something.

I even did a sine sweep and the frequencies I mentioned are way louder than any other frequencies in the room. Infact, all the other frequencies are quite even. 

I just don't get it... :(

Just thought I'd share my frustration.


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## sinkd (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: What is going on!!*

What are the dimensions of your room?


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## Dan Mott (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: What is going on!!*



sinkd @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> What are the dimensions of your room?



12 x 13 feet 7 foot 2 ceiling. I just dont get it.


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## RiffWraith (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: What is going on!!*

I hate to break it to you, but it's not all about bass traps, acoustic panels, and moving the speakers. Sure, those things help (or hurt), but it's alot more than that. I am far from the resident expert on this matter, but I can say this:

You don't just move your speakers, and you don't just add bass traps and acoustic panels.

You move your speakers, add bass traps and acoustic panels based on the freq response of the room. You sweep the room, and then move your speakers, add bass traps and acoustic panels based on the results. It's sweep the room FIRST, and then do the rest.

Also, it's not all about the dimensions, but the shape of the room. Parellel walls are not a good thing. Not exactly sure why, but I have heard from many reliable sources that they aren't, so I will buy that one. That's just one example, but the shape has alot to do with alot. Ever walk into a pro studio (notice I said "pro", which [generally] excludes studios in people's basement's), and notice the walls, and how they are "uneven"? Ever notice how the ceiling is sloped, generally right over the desk? It's that way for a reason - and the reason is not aesthetics.

Have you considered hiring someone qualified to come in and do some work for you? He will tell you what to get, where to put everything, and how to optimize the space you have. Really - that's the best bet. It's like mastering - you CAN do it yourself, but you are far better off at hiring a pro.

Cheers.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 16, 2012)

Question: what speakers are you using?


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## rayinstirling (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: What is going on!!*

Another question: Is your seating position near or in the middle of the room?


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## wst3 (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: What is going on!!*



RiffWraith @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> I hate to break it to you, but it's not all about bass traps, acoustic panels, and moving the speakers. <snip>



Some excellent advice!



RiffWraith said:


> Also, it's not all about the dimensions, but the shape of the room. Parellel walls are not a good thing. Not exactly sure why, but I have heard from many reliable sources that they aren't, so I will buy that one. <more snipped>



Even more good advice, but I am going to play the devil's advocate (just cause<G>)...

There is nothing inherently wrong with parallel walls. Some designers use parallel walls because it is easier to predict the behavior of sound in the room, and therefore pre-plan much of the treatment. Kind of a "devil you know" thing! There is one developer currently working on a room analysis tool that uses Finite Element Analysis to handle non-rectangular spaces... makes my head hurt just thinking about it, but the processing power to do those calculations exists on most home computers these days, so why not?



RiffWraith said:


> Have you considered hiring someone qualified to come in and do some work for you? He will tell you what to get, where to put everything, and how to optimize the space you have. Really - that's the best bet. It's like mastering - you CAN do it yourself, but you are far better off at hiring a pro.



Maybe the best advice yet! However, I'll soften it a little - I think your choices are hire a designer -OR- be prepared to spend some time studying. While you can not get the experience that a designer brings to the project from reading books, you can learn the basics of small room acoustics, it isn't that complicated. And for some people learning about this topic is part of the process, or fun, or whatever. I encourage folks that are interested to take the time to learn about it. In the end I think it makes you a more well-rounded studio owner.

But I also recognize that not everyone wants to be that well rounded, or has the time, or even the interest. That's a good time to hire a designer.


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## midphase (Feb 16, 2012)

One important question that has not been asked to the OP is: why do you use exclamation points instead of question marks?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 16, 2012)

Let me rephrase my last post: before you start tearing down the house, please determine that the problem isn't your speakers.

Yes there really are speakers - ones recommended by famous mastering engineers in the ads - that simply won't produce tight bass under any circumstances.

And no matter what opinions you read on this forum about acoustics, it is a fact that only good speakers are good.


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## Dan Mott (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: What is going on!!*

Hello

I have the Adam A5s, but I also tried out some PMCs in my room too and I had the same problem.

My seating position is a bit before the middle. If i move any closer to the front wall, I am then seated too close to the speakers. Infact, I am actually 38 percent from the front wall.

Ive done many sweeps and many movements. I decided to recently drop my sub because that was making my room mode worse at 44Hz, not to mention that i couosnt hear much of the bass with that because the sub was too fussy with it's positioning. I also got too much ear fatigue with the sub 44Hz slamming into your ears is a very tiring thing.

I did 4 movments, plus sweeps. I pretty much know where it sounds the worst now. In one particular spot, the problem I am talking about was much MUCH worse. The most frustrating thing is that I just don't know the cause. If I knew the cause, things wouldn't be so frustrating. I tried moving around the room while the speakers were in action and the only place that it seems to go away is when I'm off axis with the speakers. As soon as I move right between them, down the middle of the room, the problem starts and it get's worse as I move closer and closer to the speakers. 

I have read so many articles and asked so many questions and have tried all the advice I know, but I'm not really getting anywhere. Even the studios at work sound better than my room and they are much smaller. They have some nice PMCs at work and they sound lovely, but when I took some home to try in my studio, I hated them because of this problem. The studios at work have absorption everywhere and no bass traps. I personally don't like the pure absorption they have, as the studios sound very boomy, but still sound much better than mine, even when there studios aren't oddly shapeed and such. They are basically just like a normal room.

I think it's probably time to get someone down here to look at my space. I know a couple of places I can call to consult, but I've never done this because they charge alot, 150 an hour. 

I'm not a professional, but I'm passionate about good sound and being able to hear what I'm hearing properly is really important to me. I know it will never be perfect, but I want to do the best I can with my current space. I have six tracks lined up to finish, but I never touch them because I want my room in order, but I'm starting to think it's silly and I should just compose, rather than worry about this, but it's still very frustrating. 

Thanks for the help guys. Oh.... And if it really matters, sorry about how I put no question marks.... :roll:


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## jleckie (Feb 16, 2012)

*Re: What is going on!!*



Dan-Jay @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> sinkd @ Thu Feb 16 said:
> 
> 
> > What are the dimensions of your room?
> ...



A perfectly square room is the worse. At least you don't have that! But your close.. :shock:


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## sinkd (Feb 16, 2012)

I just ran your room dimensions in an online room mode calculator. At least some of the problem is mathematical.

DS[/img]


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## Dan Mott (Feb 16, 2012)

sinkd @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> I just ran your room dimensions in an online room mode calculator. At least some of the problem is mathematical.
> 
> DS[/img]



Hello

Could I please have a link to this room caculator?

Thanks


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## midphase (Feb 16, 2012)

I love Google?

http://www.marktaw.com/recording/Acoustics/RoomModeStandingWaveCalcu.html (http://www.marktaw.com/recording/Acoust ... Calcu.html)

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/room-eigenmodes.html (http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/ro ... modes.html)

http://www.mcsquared.com/metricmodes.htm


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## sinkd (Feb 17, 2012)

I used Bob Golds calculator. Link is in the previous post.

DS


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## Dan Mott (Feb 17, 2012)

Just a question...

Do I have any hope of my room sounding much better in the problem regions? Or is this something I cannot get passed?


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## RiffWraith (Feb 17, 2012)

*Re: What is going on!!*

"Do I have any hope of my room sounding much better in the problem regions?"

C'mon man - how is anyone supposed to answer that on an internet forum?



wst3 @ Thu Feb 16 said:


> RiffWraith said:
> 
> 
> > Have you considered hiring someone qualified to come in and do some work for you? He will tell you what to get, where to put everything, and how to optimize the space you have. Really - that's the best bet. It's like mastering - you CAN do it yourself, but you are far better off at hiring a pro.
> ...


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## wst3 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hi Dan,

Without seeing the room, or detailed drawings of the room - and an idea of your budget or other limitations - I don't think anyone can give you a definitive answer.

Designers have been building great sounding rooms in small spaces for a while now - it started in Europe, where space was at a premium, and one of the best control rooms I ever worked in was smaller than yours.

So the short answer is that your room can be improved.

Exactly how is a much longer answer<G>... and one that would require much more information.

Just how far do you want to go with this?


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## germancomponist (Feb 17, 2012)

http://www2.ibp.fraunhofer.de/akustik/ra/vpr/index.html

The link is in german language, sorry, but if someone can translate it to perfect american/english?

These VPR`s are a very good way to go especially in small rooms, and one can built them very easy... .


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## Dan Mott (Feb 17, 2012)

I asked that because I wouldn't want to be wasting my money on something that may not be able to be fixed because it's a small room. People are always saying that a small room is bad, regardless of what you do and I thought I was just looking in the wrong place.

So I guess, I'll hire that guy to come down and that come back to this thread and till you what's happening.

Thanks.


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## wst3 (Feb 17, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Fri Feb 17 said:


> I asked that because I wouldn't want to be wasting my money on something that may not be able to be fixed because it's a small room. People are always saying that a small room is bad, regardless of what you do and I thought I was just looking in the wrong place.



People are always saying something!!!!

There are probably spaces that can not be made suitable for critical listening situations... I'm sure of it - but I haven't run into many. A well trained and experienced designer can come up with solutions that are both effective and cost effective - that's really the best reason to hire a designer - they've seen, and fixed these problems before. (Actually, you are really hiring them for the ones they didn't fix, but that's another thread!

One quick word of advice - contrary to what people are always saying<G>... there really are few "new" tricks in the world of acoustics. If you dig deep enough you'll discover that almost every treatment product today has been used in the past, maybe by the BBC, maybe by RCA, but the basics of diffusion, reflection, and absorption are pretty old at this point. (one exception - Russ Berger came up with a way to loosely couple spaces that is very cool - still based on other ideas of course, but he was able to make it practical.). Anyway, avoid anyone selling you a golden bullet... or at least be quite careful with your wallet while they are nearby.

Have fun, and do let us know what you learn!!

Bill


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## Dan Mott (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm going to take pictures of my room and send them here. I'd be interested to see what you guys think of my space.


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## Dan Mott (Feb 18, 2012)

Another queston, before posting the pictures.

I have the Adam A5s which are a small speaker. Right now, I am trying out the PMC TB2S-AIIs because I want a speaker that goes down lower in bass, considering a 5inch doesn't do that.

Now, with the Adam A5s, the problem is there, but it's about half as bad as when I'm using the bigger PMCs. I'm certain that it's because they are bigger and they also don't have that issue at work. They obviously produce more bass and have alot more power, therefore exciting the room alot more?

I don't want to spend more than 2 grand on acoustic treatment.

However, would sticking with the smaller speaker be the best bet? Although the speakers can't produce much from 55Hz and down? Or should I invest and try to get rid of the problem with the bigger speakers, which give me the lowend response I want, not to mention that they are a great sounding speaker? The PMCs also have a smaller version of what I have. I would be investing alot less with the Adams, but I love the PMCs alot more which is the only disadvantage. It's so good hearing lowend you never heard before.

I actually bought a sub for the Adams, but after a while it just got fatiguing and caused many other problems and increased certain room modes.

Just curious?


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## wst3 (Feb 18, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sat Feb 18 said:


> Another queston, before posting the pictures.


Keep asking!



Dan-Jay said:


> I have the Adam A5s which are a small speaker. Right now, I am trying out the PMC TB2S-AIIs because I want a speaker that goes down lower in bass, considering a 5inch doesn't do that.
> 
> Now, with the Adam A5s, the problem is there, but it's about half as bad as when I'm using the bigger PMCs. I'm certain that it's because they are bigger and they also don't have that issue at work. They obviously produce more bass and have a lot more power, therefore exciting the room a lot more?



You have probably hit the nail on the head - you are introducing more energy, in the problem part of the spectrum, and it is making your room sound worse... and you a little crazy<G>.



Dan-Jay said:


> I don't want to spend more than 2 grand on acoustic treatment.


That's a fairly substantial budget for room treatment if you are willing to do some of the work yourself. Building traps is easy, diffusors... maybe a little more difficult, but still certainly manageable.



Dan-Jay said:


> However, would sticking with the smaller speaker be the best bet? <snippity>



That is something only you can decide. It will be easier to treat the room for the smaller loudspeakers from either manufacturer, but it won't get you where you want to go with respect to the lower end of the spectrum. Horses for courses... if it were me (and it will be soon enough<G>) I'd swing for the fences. It is much easier to mix, and create a mix that translates well, when you can hear everything that is going on.

On the other hand (and there's always one of those eh?) working with LF challenged loudspeakers might be an advantage if you are mixing for folks who listen on same. (This is really the root problem for the audio industry, more so today than ever before!)



Dan-Jay said:


> I actually bought a sub for the Adams, but after a while it just got fatiguing and caused many other problems and increased certain room modes.



I have had mixed results with sub-woofers in small spaces. It can be done, I've witnessed examples of it being done well, but dang, it is tricky. I'd leave that as a last resort... but again, that's me!


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## Dan Mott (Feb 19, 2012)

Hmm. Maybe it makes more sense to go with the smaller speaker. I'm not a professional, I'm just a nobody who composes in a small bedroom. I'd also be spending less money on acoustic treatment. Then... I'll miss the full range speaker :(

Sometimes I think it would be easier being a photographer


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## germancomponist (Feb 19, 2012)

Dan,

built 4 of this VPR`s, and you will be happy!


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## wst3 (Feb 19, 2012)

Dan-Jay @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> Hmm. Maybe it makes more sense to go with the smaller speaker.



Maybe - depends a bit on your threshold of pain<G>!



Dan-Jay said:


> I'm not a professional, I'm just a nobody who composes in a small bedroom.



Don't know that that's accurate, but me thinks you are certainly frustrated... I think there are a lot of folks here that run into frustrating issues, you ain't alone!



Dan-Jay said:


> I'd also be spending less money on acoustic treatment. Then... I'll miss the full range speaker :(



And that's kind of the key here isn't it? How badly do you want/need the extra octave or two at the bottom? Only you can prevent forest fires, oops, I mean can answer that!



Dan-Jay said:


> Sometimes I think it would be easier being a photographer



Might be the case today - but trust me, back in the days of darkrooms it wasn't!!!


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## Dan Mott (Feb 19, 2012)

Any videos or PDFs on how to build a VPR?. I'd just like to check it out. Haha, even then, what if I built them, and they don't work. Sigh.


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## Dan Mott (Feb 19, 2012)

wst3 @ Mon Feb 20 said:


> Dan-Jay @ Sun Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm. Maybe it makes more sense to go with the smaller speaker.
> ...




:D

Exactly. Though, when I'm talking about how photography would be easier, I'm comparing it to audio engineering. For example, I don't need any acoustic eye treatment to see the picture properly. I don't need a full range eye, because my eye is already full range (at least I think so). I also don't have a perfectly formed CUBED eye. Ha, only kidding.

How badly do I need that low end? Not so badly. There's always double checking on the headphones and other systems. As I'm in a bedroom, there is just some things you can't get passed. Also, I guess there are obsticles that a bedroom composer/engineer needs to go through to get the sound right (close to right). I'm convinced my headphone monitoring (bass wise) is quite accurate, as it translates well on other systems.

I've really learned how much a room can effect what you hear. I never thought/believed it could be this bad, but this is REAL. I also think it's crazy from hearing what I hear in the room, then going in the headphones. When I go to the headphones, all the frequencies I've cut, I didn't need to get them. ~o) ~o) ~o) ~o) ~o)


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## germancomponist (Feb 19, 2012)

Just use google.

Be sure, you can trust the Fraunhofer Institut! This is the institution that invented the MP3 format.... .


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## wst3 (Feb 19, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sun Feb 19 said:


> Just use google.
> 
> Be sure, you can trust the Fraunhofer Institut! This is the institution that invented the MP3 format.... .



pretty sure being the inventor of the MP3 format is NOT a badge of honor in the audio engineering community<G>!

As far as their VPR, I'm not all that convinced it's really new, I know that people have been combining Helmholtz resonators (the perforated part) with various absorbers for decades. This is not to suggest there is no cleverness here, but I am a little put off that it is being treated as a magical solution... there are no magical solutions in small room acoustics. There are, however, solutions...


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## wst3 (Feb 19, 2012)

another thought - ASC Tube Traps were considered to have magical powers (at least by the marketing department<G>)... but if one did a little digging one could find all sorts of applications of that basic idea in older studios, and even in some really old buildings!

Do some web surfing on the topics of poly-cylindrical diffuser and Helmholtz Resonator - both very effective treatments, and not terribly difficult to build.

The catch with ANY tuned trap is that the sharpness of the resulting filter can cause more problems than it solves - or rather cause new problems. Broadband absorption is always the best first line of attack, if for no other reason than it seldom creates new problems - and the most likely new problem will be too much HF or MF absorption.

I'd love to believe that this is rocket science, but sadly, it's mostly basic physics.


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## Dan Mott (Feb 19, 2012)

If you guys are interested on what I currently have...

I have four of these - 4inch thick version -

http://www.acousticvision.com.au/RPGDiffusers/RPGResidential/BADPanel/tabid/160/Default.aspx (http://www.acousticvision.com.au/RPGDif ... fault.aspx) 

Though, I swear I cannot notice any difference when they are at my first reflection points. They must be doing something though, which they are. I saw the reverb time graph and it made a massive difference. hmm.


I also have two of these - 

http://soundacoustics.com.au/product/bass-traps/bt120-80-corner-bass-trap/ (http://soundacoustics.com.au/product/ba ... bass-trap/)

They absorb 100 % from 100Hz onwards. They go down to 80Hz too because they are mounted so they leave a pretty good air gap. I mounted them in the corners to start. I've been sitting them on chairs, aswell as the RPGs, just so I can move them around and see what works best and also because I may move position.... yet again.

I do notice a difference with these. I tried putting one over my head, while holding it and it took the problem away a little bit. Though I do not know how I could hang it on the ceiling. I guess I'll have to figure it out, but later though because I need to sort out my monitoring system and position first.


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