# Berlin Woodwinds or Spitfire



## Phillip996 (Feb 27, 2018)

In search of a good woodwind library. Very tempted by the new berlin woodwind revive, and the fact that is has a has multiple solo instruments. On the other hand I use mainly spitfire stuff, and afraid that mixing it will be difficult. What should I do? :S


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Feb 27, 2018)

Berlin are more detailed and the articulation list is far more robust (esp. if you get the sfx expansion).

buuuut

Spitfire winds sound great (it's the legatos on tree/ambient mics that are iffy on some instruments) in that room and they would blend perfectly with your other libraries. Aside from that, its a good list of instruments!

Spitfire's general lack of uniformity when it comes to articulations is their biggest downfall imo. Having said that, if you think you can get away with the limited articulations I'd definitely go with Spitfire in your case.


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## Leon Portelance (Feb 27, 2018)

+1 for Berlin Woodwinds.


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## Wunderhorn (Feb 27, 2018)

I use Spitfire and enjoy the fact that it is less hungry for resources but I also added the Berlin WW Exp B which gives me great solo articulations for lyrical phrases. For me that's perhaps the best of both worlds.


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## Tekkera (Feb 28, 2018)

I've heard revive is worse in some aspects compared to vanilla, something along the lines of only having like two dynamic layers or something silly for legato. Probably look up the difference between vanilla and revive.


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## kimarnesen (Feb 28, 2018)

I have Spitfire and although they are beautifully sampled, I had to get additional solo libraries to have 2 unique instruments for each flute, oboe, clarinet and oboe part. Spitfire only come with one solo per instrument, and the a2 patches is useless for me.


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## mikeh-375 (Feb 28, 2018)

If you write well for winds I'd get Berlin. I have both and although SFA sounds good it is too limited for detailed work.
All depends on your scoring ability, the music you write and mainly what is important for you in a mock-up.


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## Phillip996 (Feb 28, 2018)

kimarnesen said:


> I have Spitfire and although they are beautifully sampled, I had to get additional solo libraries to have 2 unique instruments for each flute, oboe, clarinet and oboe part. Spitfire only come with one solo per instrument, and the a2 patches is useless for me.



That is kind of what makes me hesitate with the spitfire woodwinds. What library did you decide to get for solo instruments?


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## kimarnesen (Feb 28, 2018)

Phillip996 said:


> That is kind of what makes me hesitate with the spitfire woodwinds. What library did you decide to get for solo instruments?



For the Oboe I chose 8Diooboe, and while waiting for a sale on their other woodwinds I use temporarily the ones from East West Hollywood Wind. I have a subscription there but I barely use it so will stop it eventually.

I really wonder why Spitfire dit it this way. If they had 2 of each instrument present, why not have them on separate patches and make the library so much more useful??


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## jamwerks (Feb 28, 2018)

I've pretty much quit using SF WW's. Lots of strong points but that ambience is just too big a part of the overall sound.


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## Leon Portelance (Feb 28, 2018)

I have Berlin Woodwinds Revive, Legacy, Exp. A, B & C. They are fabulous.


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## meradium (Mar 1, 2018)

Leon Portelance said:


> I have Berlin Woodwinds Revive, Legacy, Exp. A, B & C. They are fabulous.



Just curious: Have you replaced the old ones with the new Revive instruments or do you use them in parallel? I have a hard time decidind how to go about it...


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## Phillip996 (Mar 1, 2018)

Anyone knows how many dynamic layers spitfire woodwinds have?


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## Leon Portelance (Mar 1, 2018)

I still use the Legacy even though I bought Revive. I have a shortage of RAM and hard drive space,


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## Tekkera (Mar 1, 2018)

Phillip996 said:


> Anyone knows how many dynamic layers spitfire woodwinds have?


Well, there's at least two in the legatos, and I'd say at least 3 in the shorts. But the legato also has a vibrato on/off switch (not crossfade)


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## Darren Durann (Mar 1, 2018)

Berlin Woodwinds are one of the only libraries today I'd still buy. I've had the delighted opportunity to mess with the library at a producer's place and they seem absolutely terrific.

That said, the Hein solo woodwinds are pretty damn useable. To be completely fair, despite my overall disappointment with Albion One, the legato woodwinds on that sucker are really outstanding imo. I mean, you still have to use the close mics as close as possible (and you'll still have that relatively far away sound whenever you combine it with a drier library), but the performance is impressive.


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## Pablocrespo (Mar 1, 2018)

Vsl woodwinds se is 25 % off this month. Do you think they should be added to the discussion?


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## robgb (Mar 1, 2018)

Unless you have money to burn, neither.


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## Darren Durann (Mar 1, 2018)

I do great with the Hein and East West woodwinds. BW would be a luxury...and I would have bought them by now if I didn't think that. Still NIIICE library!


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## Phillip996 (Mar 2, 2018)

I still think I need some time to consider things but as of now, I think it will be Berlin WW. Thanks for all the input.


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## sarobin (Apr 25, 2018)

With Berlin Woodwinds - can someone explain if I buy the Revive (main) library and the Exp A library for the missing instruments, why would I need the Exp B and Exp C libraries?


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## FriFlo (Apr 25, 2018)

sarobin said:


> With Berlin Woodwinds - can someone explain if I buy the Revive (main) library and the Exp A library for the missing instruments, why would I need the Exp B and Exp C libraries?


You do not necessarily need them (I don't have them). These are just dry studio recordings with a single velocity layer strategy (no phasing) that are sometimes better for solo performances. But that doesn't mean, you cannot use BWW main and exp a for solos in the orchestra. The other expansions just give you a different option, where it might be handy to have something dry. But you can write without the need for those or you could use other dry WW libraries for the same puprpose (like VSL or CH). I just had to many WW alternatives already, so that I did not feel the need to buy these expansions, although I like their sound judging by the demos.


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## sarobin (Apr 25, 2018)

Ah - that makes sense. So, when you say the ExpB / C libraries are "dry" does that mean the BWW Main / Exp A libraries are not?


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 25, 2018)

Anyone here use CineWinds CORE for solo writing?


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## VgsA (Apr 25, 2018)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Anyone here use CineWinds CORE for solo writing?



Sometimes!


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## ism (Apr 25, 2018)

For my money the sound of Spitfire SSW is unbeatable. I've picked up fluffy audio clarinet for foregrounded solos however. I think its probably inevitably that you're going to need different instruments for solo work, at least for the clarinet and oboe. Things like the bass clarinet and contra bassoon are particularly amazing and probably, with a bit of mixing, perfectly good for solo work as is.

But I'd considering the Berlin solo expansions - I'd be curious to know if they blend easily with SSW? It does sound like it might really be the best of both worlds.


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## WindcryMusic (Apr 25, 2018)

Pretty much +1 to what lsm said above. Since I have the entire SSO, the Spitfire woodwinds seem to work quite well for me in orchestral contexts, and with my currently limited computer resources they are much better suited to my template than the heavier BWW would have been. But for exposed parts I have recently been using the Fluffy Audio woodwinds, as well as 8DIO's Claire Oboe and English horn (or Cor Anglais, to use Spitfire's preferred term) on occasion.

I'd considered BWW at one point in the past, but the combination of its greater computer demands and various comments (at the time) that it was an older and sometimes inconsistent library pushed me away.


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## Wunderhorn (Apr 25, 2018)

ism said:


> For my money the sound of Spitfire SSW is unbeatable. ... But I'd considering the Berlin solo expansions - I'd be curious to know if they blend easily with SSW? It does sound like it might really be the best of both worlds.



That's what I did... and I do think that you are right that this way you'd have the best of both worlds... to an extent at least. A worthwile solution IMO especially with EXP B.


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## Leandro Gardini (Apr 25, 2018)

Revive has its shortcomings but with a little work it sure added a lot of flexibility to my template. I am happy with and I recommend it.


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## Ben E (Apr 25, 2018)

I own both Berlin's original woodwinds (the one with photographs of the players, not with the new engine) and Spitfire Woodwinds. Berlin is my immediate go to. They sound fantastic, there are multiples of each instrument and the articulations are very malleable. Spitfire Woodwinds have a very sweet, human sound but aren't nearly as malleable. And the Spitfire woodwind legato patches are unusable for me. I've heard Spitfire's own in-house composer (Oliver) say the same thing. All that being said, I do not own the new "improved" version of Berlin's winds.


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## JonAdamich (Apr 25, 2018)

If you mainly use Spitfire stuff, use Spitfire Woodwinds.


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## Henu (Apr 25, 2018)

Ben E said:


> And the Spitfire woodwind legato patches are unusable for me. I've heard Spitfire's own in-house composer (Oliver) say the same thing



Why do you think they are unusable, and where have you heard Oliver stating the same/ in what context? Just curious.


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## Ben E (Apr 26, 2018)

Henu said:


> Why do you think they are unusable, and where have you heard Oliver stating the same/ in what context? Just curious.


Hi Henu,
Every time I've tried to use them (with the exception of the magnificent bass clarinet) there are disruptive artifacts in enough of the legato transitions that I eventually give up. I've stopped using the legato patches as a result. The "longs" patches, however, are good enough to use as a substitute even in slow, lyrical passages. Maybe I should revisit them and try again. It was in one of Oliver's "in action" videos that I heard him express this as well. I don't remember his exact words but it was something like, "I'm using the longs patches here instead of the legato patches because I can't get the legato patches to sound right.." or "...the legato patches don't work for me..." or something like that. By the time I heard him say this I'd already reached the same conclusion and was shocked to hear it coming from him. I don't remember what video it was in. It's not the woodwind video. He's actually using legatos in that video.


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## Henu (Apr 26, 2018)

Yeah, makes sense! I have also encountered some of those artifacts as well, but I can live with those. Yet, it is sometimes annoying.


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## Ben E (Apr 26, 2018)

Phillip996 said:


> In search of a good woodwind library. Very tempted by the new berlin woodwind revive, and the fact that is has a has multiple solo instruments. On the other hand I use mainly spitfire stuff, and afraid that mixing it will be difficult. What should I do? :S


Another thing, I've always had no problem mixing Berlin winds with Spitfire orchestra. This piece is littered with Berlin winds and Spitfire winds and one would be hard pressed to tell which is which. (Mostly Berlin.) The orchestra is all Spitfire.


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## Henu (Apr 26, 2018)

The SF winds blend fantastically with pretty much anythin IMO with the dry mics.


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## sarobin (Apr 26, 2018)

Another quick question about Berlin Woodwind - are they very RAM / CPU hungry? If so, are there options to purge unwanted articulations, etc?


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## Fermile (Apr 26, 2018)

sarobin said:


> Another quick question about Berlin Woodwind - are they very RAM / CPU hungry? If so, are there options to purge unwanted articulations, etc?



the multi patches (multi-articulation) RAM consumption might vary from 700MB to 1.4GB - on opening.
you have full control over which articulations and microphones are going to consume memory.
you may also use the single articulation patch which are significantly lower on consumption.

Orchestral Tools are my very favorite tool, I didn't use Spitfire's (yet). BWW Revive and Berlin Brass sounds high-end, and their true legato is managed by their magical engine called CAPSULE. they definitively upgraded any orchestral project I worked on.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 26, 2018)

I've considered strongly picking up the SSW library, but now that I just picked up my first OT (Met Ark 1) I'm so impressed that Berlin is looking better and better.

Are the SSW samples even moderately dry? I really don't want anymore AIR ambience, to be forthright.


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## Ben E (Apr 26, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> Are the SSW samples even moderately dry? I really don't want anymore AIR ambience, to be forthright.



You can get them reasonably dry. The close mics on the winds don't seem to resonate the hall the way they do on the brass and the strings.

Here's a quick comparison .mp3. Flute, oboe, clarinet and then bassoon. Each played as dry as possible. The first of each pair is Spitfire, followed by Berlin. Legato patches.

http://beneshbach.com/resources/music/music/Sp and Be.mp3


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## JohnBMears (Apr 26, 2018)

sarobin said:


> Ah - that makes sense. So, when you say the ExpB / C libraries are "dry" does that mean the BWW Main / Exp A libraries are not?



Correct Main (now REVIVE) and EXPA were recorded in position on the Teldex Stage. EXP B & EXP C were recorded in an isolated studio and include an Impulse Response for folks who want to get them back into the 'sound' of teldex. There are less dynamic layers and more intimacy to be found in EXP B & EXP C.


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## Parsifal666 (Apr 26, 2018)

Ben E said:


> You can get them reasonably dry. The close mics on the winds don't seem to resonate the hall the way they do on the brass and the strings.
> 
> Here's a quick comparison .mp3. Flute, oboe, clarinet and then bassoon. Each played as dry as possible. The first of each pair is Spitfire, followed by Berlin. Legato patches.
> 
> http://beneshbach.com/resources/music/music/Sp and Be.mp3



THANKS!


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## Ben E (Apr 26, 2018)

Sorry to keep chiming in here, but this topic is something I've thought a lot about.
Here's a video comparison of Spitfire Legato patches and Berlin legato patches. I've also included a couple of the Spitfire "longs" patches because in some contexts the longs work better (for me) as legato patches than the actual legato patches do. I've added a little bit of hall reverb to each library to try to balance their ambience.

Go full screen to see the names of the patches being played.


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## Casiquire (Apr 27, 2018)

Ben E said:


> Sorry to keep chiming in here, but this topic is something I've thought a lot about.
> Here's a video comparison of Spitfire Legato patches and Berlin legato patches. I've also included a couple of the Spitfire "longs" patches because in some contexts the longs work better (for me) as legato patches than the actual legato patches do. I've added a little bit of hall reverb to each library to try to balance their ambience.
> 
> Go full screen to see the names of the patches being played.




Don't apologize, this is amazing! Thanks for this. I really like the Berlin oboe legato.


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 27, 2018)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Anyone here use CineWinds CORE for solo writing?


Yep. Still happy with the core and pro libraries.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Apr 27, 2018)

Mike Connelly said:


> Yep. Still happy with the core and pro libraries.


Cool. Do you own other woodwind libraries as well? If so, how often do you find yourself reaching for CineWinds?


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## Mike Connelly (Apr 27, 2018)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Cool. Do you own other woodwind libraries as well? If so, how often do you find yourself reaching for CineWinds?


Since I got it I haven't felt the need for another winds library yet. I use it all the time.


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## suchtreble (Apr 28, 2018)

Hmm, they both have their benefits. Personally, I think berlin woodwinds revive has more life though, the flute in spitfire kinda disappointed me, but the oboe is simply beautiful.


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## amadeus1 (Apr 28, 2018)

*Here's a detailed video on Berlin Woodwinds vs Spitfire Woodwinds that I did in September 2017.

*


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## Casiquire (Apr 28, 2018)

amadeus1 said:


> *Here's a detailed video on Berlin Woodwinds vs Spitfire Woodwinds that I did in September 2017.
> 
> *




Thank you for that, I love this kind of thing


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## Parsifal666 (May 1, 2018)

WindcryMusic said:


> Pretty much +1 to what lsm said above. Since I have the entire SSO, the Spitfire woodwinds seem to work quite well for me in orchestral contexts, and with my currently limited computer resources they are much better suited to my template than the heavier BWW would have been. But for exposed parts I have recently been using the Fluffy Audio woodwinds, as well as 8DIO's Claire Oboe and English horn (or Cor Anglais, to use Spitfire's preferred term) on occasion.
> 
> I'd considered BWW at one point in the past, but the combination of its greater computer demands and various comments (at the time) that it was an older and sometimes inconsistent library pushed me away.



I've been getting more and more interested in Fluffy, especially the bassoon. Does anyone else own this one?


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## cadenzajon (May 1, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I've been getting more and more interested in Fluffy, especially the bassoon. Does anyone else own this one?


Yes. The Fluffy instruments are quite good, and I love the bassoon. The exception (my entirely subjective opinion) is the oboe's tone, which I'm not fond of.

They are comparable to the BWW Exp solo instruments, where (again IMHO) the Berlin oboe is superb by comparison.


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## ism (May 1, 2018)

cadenzajon said:


> Yes. The Fluffy instruments are quite good, and I love the bassoon. The exception (my entirely subjective opinion) is the oboe's tone, which I'm not fond of.
> 
> They are comparable to the BWW Exp solo instruments, where (again IMHO) the Berlin oboe is superb by comparison.



But the difference in approach is that fluffy has three dynamic layers, with the complexities of cross fade that implies. If the OT solo winds are comparable in their approach that explicitly avoids dynamic layers does than not make the fluffy instruments much more flexible?


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## Parsifal666 (May 1, 2018)

cadenzajon said:


> Yes. The Fluffy instruments are quite good, and I love the bassoon. The exception (my entirely subjective opinion) is the oboe's tone, which I'm not fond of.
> 
> They are comparable to the BWW Exp solo instruments, where (again IMHO) the Berlin oboe is superb by comparison.



Wow, that is quite the recommendation, thank you! I'm definitely getting more interested in FA...and they don't exactly break the bank.


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## RandomComposer (May 1, 2018)

Is anyone able to make a comparison between Fluffy flute and CH flute? I'm a bit hesitant to get a Fluffy flute when CH also includes piccolo (which I use a lot) - wondering if the quality of the Fluffy flute justifies it?


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## markleake (May 1, 2018)

I don't have the others, but the Fluffy clarinet is very impressive. The tone is so much more realistic, and the instrument so well played to my ears, even compared to SF or Berlin (although I only have the base Berlin library, not solos). It kind of plays itself. The downside is it can sometimes be hard to get the dynamics to follow what you want in your head without some work. But for solo work it is the best I've heard... just my opinion though. I'm a clarinet player, but a bit of a hack really.


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## Parsifal666 (May 1, 2018)

RandomComposer said:


> Is anyone able to make a comparison between Fluffy flute and CH flute? I'm a bit hesitant to get a Fluffy flute when CH also includes piccolo (which I use a lot) - wondering if the quality of the Fluffy flute justifies it?



I think all the CH woodwinds are very fine, but that goes for me and all CH anyway. Use them a lot. In fact, if it weren't for the Hollywood series and BHOT it would be my most used library.


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## JeffvR (May 1, 2018)

markleake said:


> I don't have the others, but the Fluffy clarinet is very impressive. The tone is so much more realistic, and the instrument so well played to my ears, even compared to SF or Berlin (although I only have the base Berlin library, not solos). It kind of plays itself. The downside is it can sometimes be hard to get the dynamics to follow what you want in your head without some work. But for solo work it is the best I've heard... just my opinion though. I'm a clarinet player, but a bit of a hack really.



Same here. The fluffy clarinet is my go to clarinet. No phasing issues between dynamic layers and beautiful tone.


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## star.keys (Dec 25, 2018)

Berlin without a doubt


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## markleake (Dec 25, 2018)

RogiervG said:


> Sorry to say.. but listening to audio you folks have posted... Berlin woodwinds sounds fake (in legatos anyway).. Spitfire sounds more realistic in contrast. (more detailed, more legato transition realism)
> 
> Maybe Berlin sounds better, in a mixture of other instrument groups, like brass and/or strings.. but solo (purely on it's own... many examples posted of berlin (here and other topics), sound clearly sampled/fake/synthy.)
> 
> ...


I have both (although only Berlin legacy), I think a better way of putting it is to say the Spitfire legatos have more character... they are more lyrical, especially in the solo instruments. In practice, that can get in the way. In a mix, I find sometimes the Spitfire legato can sound odd, and result in the instrument being inaudible in parts of the phrasing. They also can jump around a bit in the smoothness of the room tone when more exposed. You really need to work the mod wheel to try overcome the built in phrasing issue if it fighting against you, and sometimes that just doesn't work.

The Berlin woods you don't have this problem. For very exposed work with Berlin, where the less lyrical legato doesn't work for you, that's where you'd move to the Berlin expansions.

So while I don't disagree, and plenty of this is personal taste anyway, I think it may not be as straight forward as you might think.


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## RogiervG (Dec 25, 2018)

markleake said:


> I have both (although only Berlin legacy), I think a better way of putting it is to say the Spitfire legatos have more character... they are more lyrical, especially in the solo instruments. In practice, that can get in the way. In a mix, I find sometimes the Spitfire legato can sound odd, and result in the instrument being inaudible in parts of the phrasing. They also can jump around a bit in the smoothness of the room tone when more exposed. You really need to work the mod wheel to try overcome the built in phrasing issue if it fighting against you, and sometimes that just doesn't work.
> 
> The Berlin woods you don't have this problem. For very exposed work with Berlin, where the less lyrical legato doesn't work for you, that's where you'd move to the Berlin expansions.
> 
> So while I don't disagree, and plenty of this is personal taste anyway, I think it may not be as straight forward as you might think.



Thank you for the insight in the matter..


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## D. Weiss (Feb 11, 2019)

Ben E said:


> Another thing, I've always had no problem mixing Berlin winds with Spitfire orchestra. This piece is littered with Berlin winds and Spitfire winds and one would be hard pressed to tell which is which. (Mostly Berlin.) The orchestra is all Spitfire.



Beautiful piece, don't get to hear modern classical too often!


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## Carlos Lopez-Real (Oct 27, 2019)

Ben E said:


> Another thing, I've always had no problem mixing Berlin winds with Spitfire orchestra. This piece is littered with Berlin winds and Spitfire winds and one would be hard pressed to tell which is which. (Mostly Berlin.) The orchestra is all Spitfire.
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE
> Very helpful, and lovely writing too!


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## Carlos Lopez-Real (Oct 27, 2019)

Ben E said:


> Sorry to keep chiming in here, but this topic is something I've thought a lot about.
> Here's a video comparison of Spitfire Legato patches and Berlin legato patches. I've also included a couple of the Spitfire "longs" patches because in some contexts the longs work better (for me) as legato patches than the actual legato patches do. I've added a little bit of hall reverb to each library to try to balance their ambience.
> 
> Go full screen to see the names of the patches being played.



Again, super helpful!


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## axb312 (May 4, 2020)

Ben E said:


> I own both Berlin's original woodwinds (the one with photographs of the players, not with the new engine) and Spitfire Woodwinds. Berlin is my immediate go to. They sound fantastic, there are multiples of each instrument and the articulations are very malleable. Spitfire Woodwinds have a very sweet, human sound but aren't nearly as malleable. And the Spitfire woodwind legato patches are unusable for me. I've heard Spitfire's own in-house composer (Oliver) say the same thing. All that being said, I do not own the new "improved" version of Berlin's winds.



Have the legato patches been fixed in recent updates to Spitfire WWs or is this still the case?


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## ism (May 5, 2020)

axb312 said:


> Have the legato patches been fixed in recent updates to Spitfire WWs or is this still the case?



I didn't know they were broken. I love the legato in SSW.


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## jbuhler (May 5, 2020)

ism said:


> I didn't know they were broken. I love the legato in SSW.


I do too.


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## constaneum (May 5, 2020)

I own BWW Legacy. It has a few nice patches but in general, i found the sound a bit dull, less lively. BWW Exp B has better sound but that's mainly for soloist context. a really great thing about BWW is the playable run patches instead of recorded run phrases. I particularly like the 8va flute. 

Base on what i've heard, SSW has a more lively sound and i like it even though it's recorded in Air but in one of the sample review walkthroughs, i heard the solo oboe suffers horrible legato indeed at the lower register. Anyone notice that ? Here's the youtube link to the solo oboe sound of SSW.  . I wonder whether it's because of the hall.


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