# Do you use Sustain Articulation for your Strings chordal arrangement ?



## muziksculp (Jun 19, 2021)

Hi,

I was curious if you use String Sustain articulation (not Legato) for your Strings chordal lines, and use the String Legato more for the exposed melodic lines ?

Since one can produce quite smooth transitions between the end of on chord and the next chord notes by extending the notes to overlap each other a little bit, then adding some of expression, and dynamics dips in the transition region between the two chords produces a nice legato/smooth result.

If you tend to use Legatos for your chordal string writing, I would like to know why you don't use the Sustains instead ?

Any further discussion on this detail would be interesting. i.e. When do you use the Sustains vs. Legato String Articulations ? 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## Mr Greg G (Jun 19, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> If you tend to use Legatos for your chordal string writing, I would like to know why you don't use the Sustains instead ?


Only for realism. I used to do what you describe with my first VSL library back in 2004 and even with Symphobia because it doesn't have legato sections. But I don't do that anymore because I find it quicker and better to just use legato sounds instead.


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## muziksculp (Jun 19, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> Only for realism. I used to do what you describe with my first VSL library back in 2004 and even with Symphobia because it doesn't have legato sections. But I don't do that anymore because I find it quicker and better to just use legato sounds instead.


Interesting. 

So, do you feel sustains are not needed, or not important any more if one has Legato articulations ?


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## Mr Greg G (Jun 19, 2021)

Well, _for me_, yes I find the Sustain patches useless. Especially when RAM is not an issue. The only advantage I see for these patches are for quick sketching. But now you have developers like Strezov Sampling or Audiobro that allow you to have multi legato patches with autodivisis. So if you have such patches and lots of RAM, why would you use Sustain ones?


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## muziksculp (Jun 19, 2021)

I wonder if we will begin seeing more String libraries offering very usable, and well done Polyphonic Legato patches, besides the monophonic legato option. So far only a few String libraries offer the Polyphonic-Legato option.


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## Saxer (Jun 19, 2021)

I don't use sustains except for special parts (sfz, harmonics etc). I'd rather have a ton of portamento length.

Oh, wait: yesterday I had a single note divisi in the celli and used a sustain! First time I can remember.


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## muziksculp (Jun 19, 2021)

So, do you feel that offering normal Sustain String patches are a wasted resource if the library offers Legatos, and/or Poly-Legatos ?


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## Mr Greg G (Jun 19, 2021)

You're not asking me but here are my 2c  : I don't think of it as a wasted resource because the libraries use the same samples for sustain and legato patches and I don't think it takes ages to program a sustain patch. So it's just a bonus or an alternative for people who run out of RAM maybe or want to sketch fast.


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## Saxer (Jun 19, 2021)

For me they are not neccessary. I don't need them. If I don't overlap I have sustains. If I overlap I want legatos. But mostly you can switch on and off the legato. I think most legatos are simply sustains with a transition in between.


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## Mr Greg G (Jun 19, 2021)

Now I'm curious, why do you ask?


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## muziksculp (Jun 19, 2021)

Thanks for your interesting feedback. 

I would like to hear more about this important detail from forum members. I'm also guessing sample developers might find this an interesting topic.


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## Mr Greg G (Jun 19, 2021)

Why do you think of it as an important detail? What's your opinion on this?


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## SteveC (Jun 19, 2021)

I like to use Sustain String patches sometimes. But I don't care about realism because there is no realistic sounding string vst for me.


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## muziksculp (Jun 19, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> Now I'm curious, why do you ask?


Good Question. 

Well, I was experimenting with some of my Strings libraries, and decided to only use the Sustains to write some chord progressions,it was a pure harmonic exercise for me, I was trying to emulate a nice and smooth legato sounding transition between the chord note transitions using note overlapping technique, and some CC1,and 11 dips help the transitions sound smooth. I thought the results were pretty good.

This made me curious to post this topic, and ask if sustains are still used these days, or have Legatos taken over.


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## purple (Jun 19, 2021)

I always play parts individually so I have no use for sustain patches.


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## muziksculp (Sep 20, 2021)

Given the replies about String Sustains on this thread, I feel they are not that popular these days.

For those who still use String Sustains, I'm still not sure how that makes sense. i.e. If you play a three note chord using the First Violins, that's like using the same number of players there are in the First Violins X 3. Which will not sound realistic. So, what's the point of using String Sustains ? Maybe good for Fast sketching ? or .... ?

I also notice that Sample Developers always include String Sustains, I wonder what they expect us to use them for, given they don't sound realistic, and no legato transitions makes them clunky to use when transitioning from one note to the next when playing chords, of single notes.

i.e. Spitfire AROOF has String Sustains. But no Legatos. High-Long Sustains, and Low-Long Sustains.

I tried using them, but they didn't sound very good, or convincing to me.

Would like to read more feedback about this topic.

Thanks.


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## jbuhler (Sep 20, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> For those who still use String Sustains, I'm still not sure how that makes sense. i.e. If you play a three note chord using the First Violins, that's like using the same number of players there are in the First Violins X 3. Which will not sound realistic. So, what's the point of using String Sustains ? Maybe good for Fast sketching ? or .... ?


This isn’t how the math of samples works. At. All. 

String sustains can be useful for detache playing. 

Many overuse legato articulations, especially fingered legato, compared to what an actual string section would do. I understand why folks do this, and I often like the sound myself, but I recognize it’s not especially realistic. 

There are things you can’t do with AROOF because it doesn’t have legato. There’s a lot more you can do with AROOF very effectively. Certainly those things might not be what your music calls for. But then maybe AROOF isn’t a library calibrated for your uses. But the fact it’s not calibrated for your use doesn’t mean it’s not well calibrated for others.


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## Tremendouz (Sep 20, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> Many overuse legato articulations, especially fingered legato, compared to what an actual string section would do.


If by fingered legato you refer to slur, I suppose one reason to overuse them is that often string libraries only have slur and no bow-change legato.


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## jbuhler (Sep 20, 2021)

Tremendouz said:


> If by fingered legato you refer to slur, I suppose one reason to overuse them is that often string libraries only have slur and no bow-change legato.


Many will use fingered or slurred legato (all in one bow)—I do this often enough myself—even when bow change is available, and it's not like fingered is generally a better substitute than a new sustain with proper programming for a bow change. No doubt many of us like the sound better—and I think there are complicated reasons for preferring the fingered legato and the impression our string sections all come with infinite bows—but that's a different question than it being realistic.


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## Mr Greg G (Sep 21, 2021)

By definition if there is a bow change this is not a legato. There’s no such thing as fingered legato or bow change legato. Also a legato is a slur, it’s the same thing. Same notation.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2021)

I guess I’m the exact opposite of everyone else here in that I almost exclusively use sustains and pretty much never use legato patches, I’d say the only instrument family I really used legatos for is woodwinds, strings are brass are always sustain unless there is a very obvious melodic line that requires it, but I’m not really that kind of composer anyways so yeah, pretty much all sustain patches for me!!


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 21, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> By definition if there is a bow change this is not a legato. There’s no such thing as fingered legato or bow change legato. Also a legato is a slur, it’s the same thing. Same notation.



The distinction being that a bow change can be made to produce a legato effect. Legato and slur are not exactly the same thing despite the notation. Whilst they both generally imply smooth joined up notes, slurs for strings relate to the physical bowing and the several bow changes one might find in a long legato phrase are executed smoothly i.e. legato. But slurs can be also used to distinguish more meta phrasing and one sometimes sees two different length slurs that a) indicate bowing and b), the larger musical design.


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## Mr Greg G (Sep 21, 2021)

mikeh-375 said:


> The distinction being that a bow change can be made to produce a legato effect.


?

Also, legato/slur and interpretation are 2 different things. The length of a legato is determined by, well, the length of the note.


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 21, 2021)

I'm not sure if the thread is talking about a specific classical style or not...but I'll pontificate anyway with some random thoughts.

It depends on what music you're writing, what libraries etc.
If underscore is the game, sustains are more than fine. And quicker.

Sometimes the sustain (or long) articulation for a part simply sounds "cooler" or has more dynamic layers than the legato variant. The trick imo is to set up a way of switching between articulations quickly to enable experimentation. 

Always with writing with VI's, it's tricks and workarounds.


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## mikeh-375 (Sep 21, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> ?
> 
> Also, legato/slur and interpretation are 2 different things. The length of a legato is determined by, well, the length of the note.


I mean that the last note at the end of a bow can be joined legato (smoothly) to the first note of the next bow, sorry if that wasn't clear.
My turn....?.... the actual length of a note is not really the main focus of legato playing as it is practically understood. What matters and what constitutes a legato performance/playing is the smooth connectivity between the notes (of any durational combination), that are indicated as to be played legato. Legato is a playing style and is not specifically defined by note duration per se. The length of a legato _passage_ is determined by how many notes are to played in a legato manner and is measured in bars and/or beats.


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## muziksculp (Sep 21, 2021)

KEM said:


> I guess I’m the exact opposite of everyone else here in that I almost exclusively use sustains and pretty much never use legato patches, I’d say the only instrument family I really used legatos for is woodwinds, strings are brass are always sustain unless there is a very obvious melodic line that requires it, but I’m not really that kind of composer anyways so yeah, pretty much all sustain patches for me!!


Interesting. Do you use the sustains monophonically (not chordal) for each section of the strings ensemble ? or do you actually play the sustains as chords for some of the sections ?


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## jbuhler (Sep 21, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> By definition if there is a bow change this is not a legato. There’s no such thing as fingered legato or bow change legato. Also a legato is a slur, it’s the same thing. Same notation.


You don’t spend much time with the naming conventions of sample libraries, do you? And a sample library doesn’t operate by the same logic as players in an orchestra. If you want to be pedantic about it, you are the one applying your terminology to the wrong domain.


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## becolossal (Sep 21, 2021)

I use sustains quite a bit. I also use legato quite a bit. I use what works best for the piece I'm working on and don't spend a lot of time worrying about what is technically correct. If anything ever gets moved from a mockup to real players, that's the copyist's job.


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## youngpokie (Sep 21, 2021)

Mr Pringles said:


> By definition if there is a bow change this is not a legato. There’s no such thing as fingered legato or bow change legato. Also a legato is a slur, it’s the same thing. Same notation.


This is misleading. Indeed, the notation only exists for "legato" per se. However, to execute legato sometimes a "rebowed legato" is necessary. Here is an example - _espressivo e legato_:






In real life, this passage is impossible to play well and on single bow (_f_ dynamic at moderate tempo, multiple ties and specific articulation instructions). That's why it's performed with a rebowed legato, with a bow change taking place every bar on the weak beat to make it discreet and then played as subtle as possible. Conductors put rebow marks here before parts are printed.

Perhaps the confusion comes from the definition. Legato is not about a single bow at any cost, it's about the smoothest possible note connection. The single bow is simply the normative way to do that, but the next best thing has to be used if there is no other option. The legato effect is maintained.

From the sample developer point of view (meaning - execution, not notation), it actually makes sense to distinguish between 3 types of legato: single string fingered, cross string fingered and rebowed. Notated the same way, but played differently and resulting in different transitions.


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## JTB (Sep 21, 2021)

Some libraries have this thing where after reaching the last note in a legato phrase the last note doesn't sustain for more than say 2 seconds. This is where I find myself using sustains. Also, sometimes the 'sucking' sound can work well for particular passages. Sounds more like a rebow than non-overlapped legato does . Which reminds me, why aren't developers offering down bow and up bow these days?. HS was good for that.


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## mussnig (Sep 21, 2021)

JTB said:


> Some libraries have this thing where after reaching the last note in a legato phrase the last note doesn't sustain for more than say 2 seconds. This is where I find myself using sustains. Also, sometimes the 'sucking' sound can work well for particular passages. Sounds more like a rebow than non-overlapped legato does . Which reminds me, why aren't developers offering down bow and up bow these days?. HS was good for that.


Just wanted to say the same. E.g. in BBCSO you can't change the release tail for many (if not all) legatos but you can for sustains/longs.

Also, as was mentioned before, in certain libraries there are patches where the non-legato sustains have more dynamic layers (or even additional attack layers) than the legatos.

I guess these things really depend on the library you are using.


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## JohnG (Sep 21, 2021)

I use whichever sounds better. Often sustains sound better, but even if they are slightly inferior for the given line, they are hella-faster to work with. So sometimes speed of turnaround supersedes the ideal sample.

I find many legato samples weak. Often, they exhibit unwelcome, hard-to-correct rhythmic delays on the attack, some of them wildly exaggerate the transitions or unexpectedly play portamento instead of just legato.

I don’t understand the mania for legato samples. Some are quite good, but overall I pity all the developers’ time wasted on it, often for rather marginal improvement. If you want something to sound live, hire at least one player and _that_ makes a huge difference. Many players can record from home, too, so you don’t even have to pay for a studio.


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## LamaRose (Sep 21, 2021)

Many sustain patches offer unique arcs/swells/crescendos/etc and are VERY useful, imho. And for me, chordal writing with strings will often yield a different result compared to piano.


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Interesting. Do you use the sustains monophonically (not chordal) for each section of the strings ensemble ? or do you actually play the sustains as chords for some of the sections ?



I’d say probably 90% of the time I’m just playing them as chords, and even when I do orchestrate them out to individual instruments I still use the sustains, I don’t really ever do fast stuff so the transition between one more to the next doesn’t have to be super smooth or quick, most of the time my string writing is just big block chords so legato doesn’t make a huge difference in my opinion


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## muziksculp (Sep 21, 2021)

KEM said:


> I’d say probably 90% of the time I’m just playing them as chords, and even when I do orchestrate them out to individual instruments I still use the sustains, I don’t really ever do fast stuff so the transition between one more to the next doesn’t have to be super smooth or quick, most of the time my string writing is just big block chords so legato doesn’t make a huge difference in my opinion


OK. Thanks. If your musical style/genre allows you to use String Sustains, and sound good in context of your music, then that explains it. But it's a very different story for me.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## KEM (Sep 21, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> OK. Thanks. If your musical style/genre allows you to use String Sustains, and sound good in context of your music, then that explains it. But it's a very different story for me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Muziksculp



When I do fast, nimble stuff I definitely use legatos, I’d like to start writing more stuff like that anyways but it’s not easy lol


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## mybadmemory (Sep 21, 2021)

I do use sustains for chords but with legato patches on top for the main melodic line and counter melodies.


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## zeng (Sep 21, 2021)

I use a sustain patch if it is like 8dio's poly which they call it ARC. I like the continous transition during chord change. For example on Century Strings v2.0 they sound very realistic to me. Other than that I prefer creating chords with legato patches...


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