# Mixing on headphones - interesting discussion, Andrew Scheps



## davidson (Aug 30, 2021)

Tldr: mixing on headphones is absolutely fine.


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## Tim_Wells (Aug 30, 2021)

Very interesting. Sounds like you pick a pair of headphones and get use to them. They don't even have to be expensive. He uses Sony 7506. He doesn't have issues adjusting the low end or the stereo field. He doesn't use calibration or any other headphone software.


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## Joël Dollié (Aug 30, 2021)

I firmly believe that mixing on HD800S is better than than 99% of home studios. Even with speakers worth 3k+

I'd rather have ''ear speakers'' that always give me the same sound without bad room resonances. I can sort out the low end with Ozone TBC and by double checking on monitors. It's true that headphones don't give the same ''physical'' sub feel, but you can hear it.

I can hear when sounds are out of phase, (feels weird in the brain width wise) so the stereo channels being isolated isn't an issue, and it's always possible to check in mono to hear the full effect of phasing. It's actually a good practice to check in mono even with speakers.

The argument that you can't pan well on headphones makes no sense imo. You're just as likely to overpan on speakers as you are to underpan on headphones. It's all a matter of reference. On top of that you can be more accurate with headphones when panning and referencing other tracks.

I think the issue is that lots of affordable headphones actually have a pretty messed up frequency response, even within respectable brands, so that can make them sound kinda nasty compared to good cheap monitors, but investing in great headphones is priceless, unless you want to build a brand new studio room and spend tens of thousands.


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## Consona (Aug 30, 2021)

I mix on old Senn HD555 with no problems. It really is all about getting used to the sound of the headphones, mainly by listening to everything on those headphones, and that's that.


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## Henu (Aug 30, 2021)

davidson said:


> mixing on headphones is absolutely fine.


Absolutely! You also need skills like Scheps and a pair of really familiar and good headphones (and the knowledge on how they translate) to actually pull that off, though. :D

While I do agree to an extent with @Joël Dollié , it's mostly about the mixing skills and experience of the user- and also about the experience on using headphones in general. I've mixed a ton of stuff in my life but even with all that knowledge giving me only headphones for monitoring will result in catastrophic over-eq'd mess, haha!


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## babylonwaves (Aug 31, 2021)

Henu said:


> it's mostly about the mixing skills and experience of the user- and also about the experience on using headphones in general.


It’s really experience. Not much else. The principles of mixing are not different on headphones.


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## Minko (Sep 2, 2021)

I'm curious about the DAC / headphone preamp he is using. Did not mention that in the video if I remember correctly. I've been test driving the Gracedesign M900 for a couple of days now, really makes a difference for me.


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## LudovicVDP (Sep 2, 2021)

Left hear (almost) not working... (except for tinnitus! That I hear very much. Thank you)
Headphones is my almost only solution since I'm doing music when everyone is asleep. But I have to remember to switch left and right from time to time to realize how unbalanced I am... :-/


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## Tim_Wells (Sep 2, 2021)

Minko said:


> I'm curious about the DAC / headphone preamp he is using. Did not mention that in the video if I remember correctly. I've been test driving the Gracedesign M900 for a couple of days now, really makes a difference for me.


Going by memory here... so it's shaky ... but I'm pretty sure that at least once he mentioned using his regular audio interface output. I think that was in a hotel room. But no doubt, he's got some killer gear in that studio.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 2, 2021)

Scheps has so much experience he can probably mix a song better without ever listening to it than I can when doing the best possible mix I can make.


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 2, 2021)

I've mixed solely on headphones for years now. Own work, telebox.. 
I have a rubbish room and work unsociable hours, so it's a need rather than outright choice.

I think the same rules apply to cans as with speakers: Get to know them, get ones with a good frequency response and reference other mixes continuously. I've steered away from calibration software etc, and instead simply relied on reference material. Old school style.


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## fakemaxwell (Sep 2, 2021)

Man, this video is great, thanks for sharing it. On every audio forum there are countless threads from much less accomplished individuals proclaiming that their preference of mixing on speakers is an indisputable fact, much to the chagrin of me and anybody else who has mixed on headphones and had it translate to large playback very well. It's nice to have somebody with a ton of experience and acclaim say the exact opposite of the loud, incorrect claim.

Of course in a vacuum where money and time was no object, I'd pick the perfect room outfitted with a Meyer Bluehorn Atmos system over my NDH 20s. Unfortunately, nobody has seen it fit to award me with that kind of cash, so until then I'm going to keep doing a lot of work on these (uncalibrated!!!) cans.


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## SupremeFist (Sep 2, 2021)

Alex Fraser said:


> reference other mixes continuously.


Yeah, referencing is really the secret weapon, isn't it? It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out I needed to do it rigorously and always, and the results are massively more consistent/translatable mixes. (Even before I got the Slate VSX, which is the other secret weapon. )


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## becolossal (Sep 2, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> Very interesting. Sounds like you pick a pair of headphones and get use to them. They don't even have to be expensive. He uses Sony 7506. He doesn't have issues adjusting the low end or the stereo field. He doesn't use calibration or any other headphone software.


This is the way it has always been, headphones or not. Know your tools. Back in my rock days, this is why you'd always take a mix out to someone's car to see if it was right or not. You knew your car way better than the amazing monitors in the studio you were renting. 

I applied the same reasoning to my own studio. I started on a pair of KRK 5's 20 years ago and kept using them. I knew what they could do and could mix accordingly. Recently made a big upgrade to better quality stuff and there will be a learning curve.


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## StefanoM (Sep 2, 2021)

I use the LCD-X with a dedicate Pre-Amp ( a cheap FIIO K5 PRO ) in combination with Acustica Audio Sierra for calibration and Room

So when I can't use my Focal in studio, I can Mix on my Headphones.

And in general, I switch from my Monitor to my LCD-X during my Mix/Mastering session

For me it's a fantastic workflow.


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## SupremeFist (Sep 2, 2021)

StefanoM said:


> I use the LCD-X with a dedicate Pre-Amp ( a cheap FIIO K5 PRO ) in combination with Acustica Audio Sierra for calibration and Room
> 
> So when I can't use my Focal in studio, I can Mix on my Headphones.
> 
> ...


Sounds nice. Out of interest, do you prefer Sierra over Realphones? I like the latter more (but with less expensive cans than the LCD-X, ie HD6XX or S4 or k701).


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## StefanoM (Sep 2, 2021)

SupremeFist said:


> +Sounds nice. Out of interest, do you prefer Sierra over Realphones? I like the latter more (but with less expensive cans than the LCD-X, ie HD6XX or S4 or k701).


Hi,

Yeah I've tested Sienna, Sonarworks + Cannopener and Relphones as well.

For me Acustica Audio Sienna is the best solution.

Only the calibration with Sierra Reference to me sounds better. Sienna ROOM/Guru is outstanding if you want to create a credible crossfeed, and Studio Room.

I have also other heaphones, not only LCD-X ( that are my MAIN and reference Headphones)

I use Sienna with all the DT 770,880,990, and also with the Audio Technica M50x

I feel the Sienna Calibration always better, then other products.

Cheers


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## darkinners (Sep 2, 2021)

I honestly can't mix with headphones, I tried but for some reason, It's not the stereo imagine/crossfeed thing but I can never get the grasp of full frequency spectrum well, I tried a bunch of headphones, lower-end ones to really high-end ones, all the same, sometimes I feel the mix sounds good on my headphones but after I check with the speakers, I found some issues at the lower mid has volume jumping up and down and require some multiband compression, that I could not identify that with headphones, in theory, it actually should be easier to identify these things with headphones but in practice, I can't.


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## Minko (Sep 2, 2021)

Tim_Wells said:


> Going by memory here... so it's shaky ... but I'm pretty sure that at least once he mentioned using his regular audio interface output. I think that was in a hotel room. But no doubt, he's got some killer gear in that studio.


I've read it was a UAD Twin somewhere. But I don't know for sure. Same as Tony Maserati used a Black Lion DAC. But don't know if that is still the case.


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 2, 2021)

When mixing on headphones, I have to check the mix at multiple volume levels to get a clear picture.

When mixing drums for example, I need to turn up the volume fairly loud to hear the best balance between the perc and the rest of the track. If I don’t go through this process, I usually mix the drums too hot.

So headphone mixing isn’t perfect. But it is doable. I think the pushback against it is as much internet “parroting” as anything else. It was gratifying to hear Anne-Kathrin Dern mention on YT that she and other LA based composers habitually mixed on cans.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 2, 2021)

Headphones cause me to make bad decisions. It's too easy to hear everything, especially ambience.


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## BassClef (Sep 2, 2021)

OK... what about reference volume levels? (just a hobbyist here with low end Focal speakers in an untreated 12x12 foot room) I've set the volume on my speakers to 75db using pink noise from my DAW and then always mix with the interface (Focusrite Clarett2PreUSB) volume knob at that setting. How do you do that with headphones? I do spend a lot of time with the headphones (Sennheiser HD650s and Beyer Dynamic DT880Pro) and have simply tried to match the volume level on my Fiio K5Pro headphone amp to what my speakers put out. I did this by simply listening to music and going back and forth between the speakers and headphones until my headphones sound like the same volume as I'm getting from the speakers.


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## rrichard63 (Sep 2, 2021)

BassClef said:


> OK... what about reference volume levels? (just a hobbyist here with low end Focal speakers in an untreated 12x12 foot room) I've set the volume on my speakers to 75db using pink noise from my DAW and then always mix with the interface (Focusrite Clarett2PreUSB) volume knob at that setting. How do you do that with headphones? I do spend a lot of time with the headphones (Sennheiser HD650s and Beyer Dynamic DT880Pro) and have simply tried to match the volume level on my Fiio K5Pro headphone amp to what my speakers put out. I did this by simply listening to music and going back and forth between the speakers and headphones until my headphones sound like the same volume as I'm getting from the speakers.


I'm also curious about this. Intuitively, it seems to me that you experience any given sound level differently on headphones than you do on speakers. So the problem is not just the mechanical one of measuring sound pressure level inside a person's ears. It's also the psychoacoustical one of what sounds equal to the listener.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 3, 2021)

BassClef said:


> OK... what about reference volume levels? (just a hobbyist here with low end Focal speakers in an untreated 12x12 foot room) I've set the volume on my speakers to 75db using pink noise from my DAW and then always mix with the interface (Focusrite Clarett2PreUSB) volume knob at that setting. How do you do that with headphones? I do spend a lot of time with the headphones (Sennheiser HD650s and Beyer Dynamic DT880Pro) and have simply tried to match the volume level on my Fiio K5Pro headphone amp to what my speakers put out. I did this by simply listening to music and going back and forth between the speakers and headphones until my headphones sound like the same volume as I'm getting from the speakers.


That's a great question - I don't know the answer. If you're not mixing to a specific venue or industry that has standards, then it's easy: just turn up the volume sometimes, otherwise keep it pretty low. But if you need 100% certainty that it'll sound great at 85db on speakers in a theater? Or 100db+ in a club? It'd be good to have some way to better reference test.


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## Dietz (Sep 3, 2021)

Mixing on cans is a very lonely way to listen to music ... 8-/


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## CATDAD (Sep 3, 2021)

For me, mixing on headphones ignites my tinnitus in long sessions more than mixing on monitors. That being said, the headphones I primarily use are Sennheiser HD25s because I know how they sound, and they really trap that sound in your ears with small clamping closed-back cups! I'm sure if I were to use gentler, bigger, open-backs it wouldn't be so bad.

But if you have headphones that have a full frequency response that you know very well, and you are always referencing other good stuff, I don't see why you wouldn't compensate for their curve and make good mixes over time. Some devices would have longer learning curves than others, and make you work harder for sure. And if you aren't as experienced as Scheps, maybe some things might sound weird in a physical room in a way you won't automatically adjust for...

But if people can make a case for mixing with NS-10s because they sound bad and have harsh mids, we can make a case for mixing on anything, right?


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## storyteller (Sep 3, 2021)

FWIW, he did mention that for his ears, he can only mix on MD7506s and cannot mix on anything else and make it work. Probably an important point. 7506s are well known to pre-digital era engineers as having the cleanest listening experience for translation. The audiophile engineer who taught me swore by them as well.


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## chimuelo (Sep 3, 2021)

It’s absolutely fine to mix on headphones that are meant to work for thousands of other people needing a one size fits all solution where everyone hears the same...


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## fakemaxwell (Sep 3, 2021)

storyteller said:


> FWIW, he did mention that for his ears, he can only mix on MD7506s and cannot mix on anything else and make it work. Probably an important point. 7506s are well known to pre-digital era engineers as having the cleanest listening experience for translation. The audiophile engineer who taught me swore by them as well.


Hrm I don't think there's anything special about the 7506 here, he mentions that they aren't flat and the high end is pretty hype. Having used them for a long time I would agree.

But the point is that his brain acclimated to the sound of the 7506s, so that he can intuitively adjust his mixes.

This will work for just about any pair of decent headphones, as long as the full frequency spectrum is present and you give your ears some time it'll work. If you change headphones you'll have to do it again, and this is why I think headphone correction is completely unnecessary.


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## vitocorleone123 (Sep 3, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> this is why I think headphone correction is completely unnecessary.


I've found it invaluable, but I'm not a professional mixer.


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## storyteller (Sep 3, 2021)

fakemaxwell said:


> Hrm I don't think there's anything special about the 7506 here, he mentions that they aren't flat and the high end is pretty hype. Having used them for a long time I would agree.
> 
> But the point is that his brain acclimated to the sound of the 7506s, so that he can intuitively adjust his mixes.
> 
> This will work for just about any pair of decent headphones, as long as the full frequency spectrum is present and you give your ears some time it'll work. If you change headphones you'll have to do it again, and this is why I think headphone correction is completely unnecessary.


Oh I agree with you. I just think it is interesting that the 7506s come up in mixing circles from the pre-digital era guys who probably used NS10s and Tannoys as their original reference monitors. You definitely have to know your headphones *really* well.


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## chopin4525 (Sep 5, 2021)

Best take of the video: "Headphones are a magnifier for s***"! Couldn't agree more! :D


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## IgneousOne (Sep 5, 2021)

I think it's fair to say that the majority of listeners these days will be listening on headphones / ear buds.


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