# How to write that arpeggiated notes should be held?



## d.healey (Nov 28, 2021)

This doesn't feel right, anyone know a better way?


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Nov 28, 2021)

Laissez vibrer. Just have a tie after each note that doesn’t connect to anything until/unless you enter a new measure, on which case it clarifies things to introduce a pre-note tie into the full chord.

Alternatively, or in addition to, separate it into different voices for clarity.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Nov 28, 2021)

What six fingered gorilla are you going to get to play that?


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Nov 28, 2021)

Jett Hitt said:


> What six fingered gorilla are you going to get to play that?


No gorilla needed. Assuming it’s a keyboard instrument (which it may not be), and assuming it’s all in one hand, on the piano you could use the sostenuto pedal for the sustained notes if you have smaller hands. I have larger hands and have no issue playing the example by rearticulating the fourth or fifth finger. On slimmer keys like those of an organ, I’m sure most people could play it.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Nov 28, 2021)

I was mostly being funny. However, if you’re going to use the pedal, then all you need is a pedal marking. The implication with all those tied notes is that you really want those keys held down. I’d put those held notes in a 2nd layer.


----------



## d.healey (Nov 28, 2021)

It's piano, that part is played with two hands, it's a transition section after the right hand has just ended a phrase and is about to start another.


----------



## Jett Hitt (Nov 28, 2021)

d.healey said:


> It's piano, that part is played with two hands, it's a transition section after the right hand has just ended a phrase and is about to start another.


Well then put the left hand part in the other staff where it belongs, and you can eliminate most of those ties.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 28, 2021)

d.healey said:


> It's piano, that part is played with two hands, it's a transition section after the right hand has just ended a phrase and is about to start another.


If the bottom triad is played only in the LH, and you don’t want to use pedal, put that triad in the lower staff, that way you can reduce the notes to eights tied to a dotted half.


----------



## Bollen (Nov 28, 2021)

The cleaner the better, both options suggested are fine, you could also use different voices to better spell durations.


----------



## JJP (Nov 28, 2021)

Yeah, split that stuff into one staff for each hand. If that's not possible for some reason, at least split it to stems up and down.


----------



## ag75 (Nov 28, 2021)

JJP said:


> Yeah, split that stuff into one staff for each hand. If that's not possible for some reason, at least split it to stems up and down.


Maybe something like this:


----------



## Zedcars (Nov 28, 2021)

It would be cleaner and easier to sight-read if the left and right hands parts are split and use an arpeggio symbol:







(sorry, didn’t have time to redo your actual notes)

Common in harp writing, it is also used in piano scores too.

P.S. Everyone should buy Behind Bars by Elaine Gould. It’s the best book on music notation I’ve ever owned!


----------



## d.healey (Nov 29, 2021)

Yeah spltting it between two staffs makes much sense - and seems so obvious now!



Zedcars said:


> It would be cleaner and easier to sight-read if the left and right hands parts are split and use an arpeggio symbol:


Does the arpeggio symbol make it clear that I want the notes to be held and not just arpeggiated?


----------



## Zedcars (Nov 29, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Yeah spltting it between two staffs makes much sense - and seems so obvious now!
> 
> 
> Does the arpeggio symbol make it clear that I want the notes to be held and not just arpeggiated?


The note duration does that I believe. A ped. indication (which may or may not be desired), or Laissez vibrer as Duncan stated above would make it clear.


----------



## Daryl (Nov 29, 2021)

This is probably the easiest


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 29, 2021)

Daryl said:


>





Zedcars said:


>



Neither of these examples are clearer rewrites of what @d.healey wrote above.
The roll indication is unmetered.

The other I have never seen in diatonic music. At best, avant-garde stuff from Stockhausen or a composer like that. Even then, the only reason that typically-percussion notation would be used would be to indicate those notes are to ring while another voice has a staccato figure elsewhere.

See here:





iCloud


Sign in to iCloud to access your photos, videos, documents, notes, contacts, and more. Use your Apple ID or create a new account to start using Apple services.




www.icloud.com





.


----------



## Rob (Nov 29, 2021)

Daryl said:


> This is probably the easiest


this is what we usually do, although the pedal marking is also doable. When doing piano reductions of orchestral scores the little ties come in handy...


----------



## Living Fossil (Nov 29, 2021)

If the pianist is supposed to keep the notes pressed down, you should indicate it (it also will result in a different sound as with the open pedal.

Attached are two variants. The first one is mathematically not correct, but it's easy to understand the intention. I've encountered this notation in different scores and also use it. I would write additionally "_ten."_ [for _tenuto_]

The second version is the "mathematically" correct one. You could write it like this when the constellation occurs for the first time, and then use the first version with the remark "_sim_." [for: _simile_].

Probably you could also write "left hand" - right hand etc. if it's intended to be played tenuto.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 29, 2021)

This is how real men and women write that.


----------



## d.healey (Nov 29, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> If the pianist is supposed to keep the notes pressed down, you should indicate it (it also will result in a different sound as with the open pedal.
> 
> Attached are two variants. The first one is mathematically not correct, but it's easy to understand the intention. I've encountered this notation in different scores and also use it. I would write additionally "_ten."_ [for _tenuto_]
> 
> ...


Thanks, this looks like a good solution!


----------



## ag75 (Nov 29, 2021)

Rob said:


> this is what we usually do, although the pedal marking is also doable. When doing piano reductions of orchestral scores the little ties come in handy...


Except I have never seen this written this way in piano music. Harp yes, piano no.


----------



## ag75 (Nov 29, 2021)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> This is how real men and women write that.


This is really the cleanest and most precise way to write this.


----------



## d.healey (Nov 30, 2021)

ag75 said:


> This is really the cleanest and most precise way to write this.


Holding the pedal is not the same as holding down the keys. In fact I want a pedal mark too so that the keys that aren't held constantly will sustain over the top.


----------



## Daryl (Nov 30, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Holding the pedal is not the same as holding down the keys. In fact I want a pedal mark too so that the keys that aren't held constantly will sustain over the top.


Maybe something like this then


----------



## Daryl (Nov 30, 2021)

Or


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Nov 30, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> The other I have never seen in diatonic music. At best, avant-garde stuff from Stockhausen or a composer like that. Even then, the only reason that typically-percussion notation would be used would be to indicate those notes are to ring while another voice has a staccato figure elsewhere.


If you're referring to the LV lines, plenty of diatonic, non-avant-garde, non-percussion music uses this. It's a very common notation. If you're not referring to this, disregard.

@d.healey, I wouldn't overthink this, and I would always strive for the simplest, clearest representation of what you're hoping to achieve. Musicians are interpreters, so why complicate the instructions? Unless you want them confused, which is different entirely. I would either use the sostenuto pedal - in conjunction with the sustain pedal if you want to make use of that too, and if the tempo isn't too quick for it to be reasonable - or I'd delegate it between the hands, presuming the LH isn't already being used. So:


----------



## Gerbil (Nov 30, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> If the pianist is supposed to keep the notes pressed down, you should indicate it (it also will result in a different sound as with the open pedal.
> 
> Attached are two variants. The first one is mathematically not correct, but it's easy to understand the intention. I've encountered this notation in different scores and also use it. I would write additionally "_ten."_ [for _tenuto_]
> 
> ...


The romantic way 

How you write it would make a difference to how I play the line. How do you want the pianist to think of it? As a broken root triad that continues as an independent line? Then write it this way. I'd be naturally inclined to think more about the final five notes and play legato. If it's written as Daryl or Nick B wrote it, I'd probably give all eight notes an arching 'ligne', if that makes sense...and maybe even play a tad staccato (pedal down obviously) to balance the notes the way I like.

Would the audience be able to tell. Another question!


----------



## Iskra (Nov 30, 2021)

As a pianist, the first options of both Duncan and Living fossil will be the easiest to read and the best ones to understand your intention as a composer. All the others seems a bit convoluted to me to express a triad held down while the melodie continues to the D-E-F...
As mentioned above, if you want the keys held down, you should clearly notate that (it's a completely different thing to hold down keys than to press the sost or right pedal).

Reminds me of the beginning of Mozart's D minor Fantasia:


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ctIgyWcSL.jpg


----------



## Living Fossil (Nov 30, 2021)

Gerbil said:


> The romantic way


It's not about "romantic" or non romantic, it's about writing down the intention.
If something is played with an open pedal, the sound is different and therefore the composer's intention was different.
And: if it helps, imagine that the line is played on an organ.

BTW, here's a snippet from Bach's Praeludium 17 (WTC 2):


----------



## Gerbil (Nov 30, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> It's not about "romantic" or non romantic, it's about writing down the intention.
> If something is played with an open pedal, the sound is different and therefore the composer's intention was different.
> And: if it helps, imagine that the line is played on an organ.
> 
> BTW, here's a snippet from Bach's Praeludium 17 (WTC 2):


Yes, thanks, I'm aware of that being a professional pianist who teaches in a conservatoire! I was sort of trying to be light-hearted.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 30, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> BTW, here's a snippet from Bach's Praeludium 17 (WTC 2):


Change the note values and this is correct according to the original post.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 30, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> If you're referring to the LV lines, plenty of diatonic, non-avant-garde, non-percussion music uses this. It's a very common notation. If you're not referring to this, disregard.



Where? Who? What Darryl wrote and putting the ties-to-rest/floating ties in the middle of the phrase is very different. (See attachment)

But also, despite this attachment being in a JW score (couldn’t find one off the cuff in Chopin or Rach) it’s inferior to just writing a whole note. It’s notation “slang.”


----------



## Living Fossil (Nov 30, 2021)

Gerbil said:


> Yes, thanks, I'm aware of that being a professional pianist who teaches in a conservatoire! I was sort of trying to be light-hearted.


Sorry if i didn't get the joke. It's kind of annoying seeing the Pedal advice all over the place in this thread although the correct answer has already been given and it's obvious that an execution with the pedal would destroy the melodic line in the second half. 
But, other than that i agree it's a good thing to be lighthearted.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 30, 2021)

Living Fossil said:


> It's kind of annoying seeing the Pedal advice all over the place in this thread although the correct answer has already been given and it's obvious that an execution with the pedal would destroy the[…]


I thought you had me on block 😋😉


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 30, 2021)

d.healey said:


> Holding the pedal is not the same as holding down the keys. In fact I want a pedal mark too so that the keys that aren't held constantly will sustain over the top.


Then just use English. Someone suggested L.V. (maybe without periods? I forget), which any percussionist would understand, but this is how I'd do it.

Either way, I'd definitely use stems down and up for LH and RH.


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Nov 30, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Stephen Limbaugh said:
> 
> 
> > Where? Who? What Darryl wrote and putting the ties-to-rest/floating ties in the middle of the phrase is very different. (See attachment)
> ...


Well, without this getting too off-track, I wouldn't expect that of Chopin or Rach, so that's not really a sensible place to survey. I took a cursory glance through some of my music and found several examples in Ravel, Debussy, Rautavaara, Stuart McRae, Lachenmann, Schwantner, and Maki Ishii.

Also, I'll just have to disagree with your judgement of the notation. Disregarding the 'slang' bit, since, of course, language evolves, the _connotations_ are just as important as the denotations. LV can suggest a freer feeling of time or decay, or even a completely different approach to the attack of the note.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Nov 30, 2021)

My only goal when writing parts - should I ever get to do that again! - is to make the musicians reading them as comfortable as possible.

Ravel can do whatever he wants (not that I plan to exhume him).


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 30, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> cursory glance through some of my music and found several examples in Ravel, Debussy,


Which diatonic Ravel score? 

Even in _Gaspard, _the 4-5 times that happens it is like the JW score… and in fact it is still totally unclear because sometimes it is to a fermata, other times it is to a rest, and in one instance it is to an empty bar with no rest. It gets points in academia I suppose… but is going to cause interpretation issues 100 years from now.

(The other contemporary guys on that list I don’t care about… my old teacher won a Pulitzer Prize for a piece with all kinds of goofy notation and gets points in that world for the “evolved” language of ambiguity. It’s antithetical to the art and doesn’t provoke any sympathies or interest.)

Equally obnoxious is when composers like Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov beam/group their eight notes over the barline. While there’s no interpretive ambiguity, it does clutter the page…. The composer’s calligraphic equivalent to a wanking guitar solo.


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Nov 30, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> (The other contemporary guys on that list I don’t care about… my old teacher won a Pulitzer Prize for a piece with all kinds of goofy notation and gets points in that world for the “evolved” language of ambiguity. It’s antithetical to the art and doesn’t provoke any sympathies or interest.)


No point to this discussion, then. If your worldview of musical literature excludes your very capable contemporaries, then I guess this is where I’ll leave it.


----------



## Stephen Limbaugh (Nov 30, 2021)

Ha! Well yeah, my worldview of the literature is heavily curated, happy to admit. It’s been the best way to acquire the characteristic for which my musical services are most frequently engaged: taste. 😉


----------



## markleake (Nov 30, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> On slimmer keys like those of an organ, I’m sure most people could play it.


Off topic I know, but I'm curious about this. In my experience organ and piano keys are about the same width (-ish, it can depend a bit on individual instruments, how old, brand, etc).

I tried to find more info, but all my searches for references on this just shows that there is no standard for organ (individual keys, + full key desk width), nor for pianos, and they are usually about the same.


----------



## Justin L. Franks (Nov 30, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


>


The one on the left.


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Nov 30, 2021)

markleake said:


> Off topic I know, but I'm curious about this. In my experience organ and piano keys are about the same width (-ish, it can depend a bit on individual instruments, how old, brand, etc).
> 
> I tried to find more info, but all my searches for references on this just shows that there is no standard for organ (individual keys, + full key desk width), nor for pianos, and they are usually about the same.


Ah, I wish I could help point to a source, but this is just from my experience having played on a LOT of pianos and organs throughout the US and UK. Though bear in mind, I’m not an organist, and true organists know an _absurd_ amount about organ architecture. I’m sure a question in the Hauptwerk forums would yield answers for you!


----------



## markleake (Nov 30, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> I’m sure a question in the Hauptwerk forums would yield answers for you!


Thanks. Yes I looked and that was the outcome.. no agreement or standards. Most posts saying they are the same size. That's my experience too (same size), but I have far less exposure it sounds than you.


----------



## Duncan Krummel (Nov 30, 2021)

markleake said:


> Thanks. Yes I looked and that was the outcome.. no agreement or standards. Most posts saying they are the same size. That's my experience too (same size), but I have far less exposure it sounds than you.


Oh I could have a very unique experience with that! Though I would imagine older organs are more varied, and that’s predominantly the exposure I’ve had. Those old church organs across Europe are wildly unique beasts. Though even acoustic pianos have enough variation I find that strong preferences surface amongst pianists. I’m not a fan of Yamahas or Bösendorfers on the whole, in part because I find their keys too narrow most of the time. Again, anecdotal, but anecdotally mine


----------



## markleake (Nov 30, 2021)

Duncan Krummel said:


> Oh I could have a very unique experience with that! Though I would imagine older organs are more varied, and that’s predominantly the exposure I’ve had. Those old church organs across Europe are wildly unique beasts. Though even acoustic pianos have enough variation I find that strong preferences surface amongst pianists. I’m not a fan of Yamahas or Bösendorfers on the whole, in part because I find their keys too narrow most of the time. Again, anecdotal, but anecdotally mine


Ah, that may explain it then, right. The older organs are probably going to vary a lot more. Especially in Europe. 
The piano manufacturers have different standards is what I read. I've never noticed this myself, usually because other differences stand out more I guess. I do notice the gaps between keys can be different. Not that I play pianos other than my own very often, but is interesting to know.


----------



## ryans (Nov 30, 2021)

markleake said:


> Ah, that may explain it then, right. The older organs are probably going to vary a lot more. Especially in Europe.
> The piano manufacturers have different standards is what I read. I've never noticed this myself, usually because other differences stand out more I guess. I do notice the gaps between keys can be different. Not that I play pianos other than my own very often, but is interesting to know.


I have to say, in my experience anyways, it's surprising how much it doesn't matter.

Coming from piano I remember the first time I tried melodica (tiny keys) and the muscle memory adapted almost instantly. 

My hypothesis is as long as the key size and space are within a reasonable window your fingers won't even notice.


----------



## markleake (Dec 1, 2021)

ryans said:


> I have to say, in my experience anyways, it's surprising how much it doesn't matter.
> 
> Coming from piano I remember the first time I tried melodica (tiny keys) and the muscle memory adapted almost instantly.
> 
> My hypothesis is as long as the key size and space are within a reasonable window your fingers won't even notice.


Yes, I find this too. I have a Korg Microkey that I use for my DAW and find I don't have much issues jumping between normal sized keys and the microkey. For piano at least. For organ I find it harder, I think just because of the mechanics of swapping fingers around between keys with not enough real estate. Also how the keys press vs. organ (but that is not really due to the key width).


----------



## Daryl (Dec 1, 2021)

Stephen Limbaugh said:


> Where? Who? What Darryl wrote and putting the ties-to-rest/floating ties in the middle of the phrase is very different. (See attachment)
> 
> But also, despite this attachment being in a JW score (couldn’t find one off the cuff in Chopin or Rach) it’s inferior to just writing a whole note. It’s notation “slang.”


But what's wrong with notation slang? Having been a professional for nearly 40 years, if it's clear, there is no issue. Now one could say that it's not precise enough, but that's a different argument from saying one shouldn't use slang.

However, I did offer another two possibilities. Personally, the original would suggest that it is one melody where the first three notes are held down, so the l.v. after each note is not accurate enough. I agree. However, in my other two examples, all I've done is clean up what is already there from the OP, so I see nothing wrong with that.


----------

