# Is there a lyricist in the house



## bill5 (Sep 11, 2020)

I realize this is a very heavily oriented instrumental site, but would be interested in talking lyrics for those who write them.

One thing I'm curious about is how rigid people are or aren't about rhyming schemes....I deviate often. For ex. I'll have an ABAB pattern in a stanza and then to go AABB etc.


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## robteehan (Sep 16, 2020)

I'm I songwriter too - sometimes I'll stick to a scheme, other times I'll get very creative and fluid. It depends on the song. A fluctuating scheme can feel more introspective, rigid one more direct. My general principal is to write in a flow state and do what feels good, then go back and look for opportunities to add depth and interest creatively.


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## h.s.j.e (Sep 16, 2020)

For the most part, I try to maintain a consistent rhyme scheme in equivalent parts, so if I'm writing something with verses, I'll tend to make the verses the same. I like that it gives the piece structure, I dislike that the it can make the track seem rigid.


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## oboemaroni (Sep 16, 2020)

I used to be a lot more bothered about rhyme scheme, and even how things looked on the page... Now I prioritise meaning, truthfulness, emotional resonance and sound.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 16, 2020)

The late great Hal David hated what is often referred to as “ bastard” rhymes, but I sometimes employ them, but mostly not.


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## Stringtree (Sep 16, 2020)

For me, it's more often than not a clever game, with internal rhymes in unexpected but satisfying places, then delayed rhyme or even a suggested rhyme at the end. 

_The man demands to speak to the pilot
The stewardess is armed with ballpoint pens_

Immense power lies in the ABCB for me, so I don't overuse it:

_Into the air for the last goodbye
Islands a line through a turquoise jewel
The foam of the waves in an endless sea
We're riding a bus full of aircraft fuel_

Sometimes the rhyme is with the same word:

_Yes, I've been missing you
And it feels like I'm losing you
It'll take more than words this time
It might take the both of us trying_

In this case, the double meaning of "take" was more fun and interesting than rhyming. Grim. Needless to say, that relationship did not last. Using the same word was just propulsion.

Since I write the music too, it's a game to intertwine developments in music and words at the same time. Rhyme is a part, but I often just give it a tap and go where I want to go:

_In from the cold to watch a lazy snow settle down
And not particularly thinking of the outside chance
The phone will sound inside an empty house
The cats will dance
To the ringing, you're not home_

Even if I'm not good at this, I have such fun with the game, with the wordplay, the tying of string into a beautiful knot that makes me happy and sometimes cackle with... never mind. What a nerd. 

_Still can't believe you slept through the sound
It must have been the worst but
Each time is worse than the
Time before and you just can't rehearse
For the one that shakes all the glass to the floor_

Hahahahahaaaa!!!! 

Oh, sorry. 

Great topic! Can't wait to hear more about this.


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## Polkasound (Sep 16, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I deviate often. For ex. I'll have an ABAB pattern in a stanza and then to go AABB etc.



That's something I never do. I might change the pattern at the chorus, but I always maintain the same pattern for the verses.


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## bill5 (Sep 16, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> The late great Hal David hated what is often referred to as “ bastard” rhymes, but I sometimes employ them, but mostly not.


I have no problem using them and can't imagine why it would be a thing. It's about word flow, not total precision. And while both matter, as stated above, the content matters more, so if I have a better line, I'm not going to abandon it just because the rhyme isn't quite right.


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## bill5 (Sep 16, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> That's something I never do. I might change the pattern at the chorus, but I always maintain the same pattern for the verses.


Interesting......I want to go back and listen more carefully at this and how others have done it, esp artists I like. I suspect the answer is all over the map.


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## Polkasound (Sep 16, 2020)

bill5 said:


> Interesting......I want to go back and listen more carefully at this and how others have done it, esp artists I like. I suspect the answer is all over the map.



I'm sure it is done very well and effectively, but my choosing not to do it is personal taste. When I get a verse written and I can hear the music and lyrics flowing in my head, I want to keep that flow going for the other verses. For me, that requires maintaining the same rhyming pattern.




bill5 said:


> I have no problem using [bastard rhymes] and can't imagine why it would be a thing. It's about word flow, not total precision. And while both matter, as stated above, the content matters more, so if I have a better line, I'm not going to abandon it just because the rhyme isn't quite right.



I'll try to avoid a lazy rhyme
But sometimes it leads to the perfect line
Lazy rhyming is acceptable to many
Even to aliens, according to S.E.T.I.

The poem obviously sucked, but it's an example of lazy rhyming. When I am writing lyrics, I do what many people do... search for the perfect line both inside and outside true rhymes. My philosophy is that lazy rhyming is 100% acceptable in music, because the average music listener's brain is preoccupied with all of the elements of the song — sound, beat, instrumentation, lyrics, etc. — so by the time the rhyming word comes around again in a lyric, the listener isn't going to remember what consonant the first one ended on. They're not going suddenly stop and say to themselves, "Hey, _tree_ doesn't rhyme with _believe_!" As long as the "eee" sound is present in both spots, the song will flow.

But this is also why I never change patterns from one verse to another. If I write my first verse AABB, my second and third verses follow suit, because the music follows suit. I don't want the listener's ears to detect anything out of place. But at the chorus, the music changes, so that's where I'll be open to changing rhyming patterns.

Good topic!


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## Bman70 (Sep 16, 2020)

Better songs will be more forgiving of rhyme scheme deviation. I wouldn't just change from AABB to ABAB for no reason. There should be a way to make it match the first. For most of us, however, whether the rhyme scheme changes or stays the same won't vastly improve the song – there's too much else that goes into a good one. Rhyme scheme is almost polish-level stuff, and most of what goes wrong or right in a song is more structural and content level. One thing though, the bridge in a song is a good place to deviate drastically. I always like choruses to differ from verses in rhyming as well.

Edit: I often feel having every line need to rhyme is overkill and feels rigid, so I most often probably write a scheme similar to XAXA or XBXB, where X is has no ending rhyme (but may have internal ones). 

e.g. from one of my "hits" Lol: 
_We both know so many people
Some are gone, some are still here
Some get close, some get strange,
Some stay the same year after year. _

This could of course be seen as long lines resulting in AA. But that's not how it sounds musically.


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## bill5 (Sep 16, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> the average music listener's brain is preoccupied with all of the elements of the song — sound, beat, instrumentation, lyrics, etc. — so by the time the rhyming word comes around again in a lyric, the listener isn't going to remember what consonant the first one ended on. They're not going suddenly stop and say to themselves, "Hey, _tree_ doesn't rhyme with _believe_!" As long as the "eee" sound is present in both spots, the song will flow.
> 
> But this is also why I never change patterns from one verse to another. If I write my first verse AABB, my second and third verses follow suit, because the music follows suit. I don't want the listener's ears to detect anything out of place. But at the chorus, the music changes, so that's where I'll be open to changing rhyming patterns.


Exactly!


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## MartinH. (Sep 16, 2020)

How does one write metal lyrics, that don't make you cringe? (Not trying to be funny, I genuinely feel stuck here)


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## bill5 (Sep 16, 2020)

I'm hardly an expert, but aren't they supposed to make you cringe?


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## David Cuny (Sep 16, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> How does one write metal lyrics, that don't make you cringe? (Not trying to be funny, I genuinely feel stuck here)


Perhaps you could be a bit more specific about what element(s) of your lyrics you consider cringeworthy?

Short answer: Study and write a lot. Like most things, songwriting is a craft.


That said, songs are about "the feels" - triggering an emotional response in your listener.

You can think of a song of as manipulating the listener into an emotional response. It's what the listener _expects_ from the song and lyrics: to be led on an emotional journey. By listening, they're giving themselves permission to feel things in a way that they may otherwise deny themselves.

Lyrics aren't really expected to stand by themselves. That's called poetry. A song is a joining of lyric and music.

Certain genres - especially metal - are big and bombastic. They demand big, emotional lyrics.

So embrace that.

The idea itself doesn't have to be original, or earth shattering. But craft it as well as you can.

Respect your listeners, and ground your songs in emotional truth. Avoid cliches. Make sure your song says something. Rewriting is your friend: refine and focus. The song structure and lyrics need to support each other. Each verse should say something new, moving to the climax of the song.

Then again, sometimes lyrics of a song are just filler, so the band can play loud and the guitarists play lots of solos.

There's nothing wrong with that, either.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 16, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I have no problem using them and can't imagine why it would be a thing. It's about word flow, not total precision. And while both matter, as stated above, the content matters more, so if I have a better line, I'm not going to abandon it just because the rhyme isn't quite right.



He was from a different generation.


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## Stringtree (Sep 17, 2020)

David Cuny said:


> By listening, they're giving themselves permission to feel things in a way that they may otherwise deny themselves.
> 
> Then again, sometimes lyrics of a song are just filler, so the band can play loud and the guitarists play lots of solos.



First, what a beautiful perspective. 

Second, what’s a guitar solo?


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## MartinH. (Sep 17, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I'm hardly an expert, but aren't they supposed to make you cringe?


Arguably many/most do that, but I don't think they're "supposed" to.

I almost exclusively listen to instrumental music or metal with screamed vocals where the lyrics are hard to understand, and usually I don't pay attention to them beyond their abstract sound and rythm. I don't go out of my way to read the lyrics either. When I started to do a bit of research and read the lyrics to a track of a blackmetal band that I really liked, I thought "Holy fuck, this angsty bullshit is some weapons-grade cringe, I wish I had never read that.", because it diminished my enjoyment of the track that I must have heard over a dozen times already at that point.




@David Cuny: Fantastic reply, thanks a lot!



David Cuny said:


> Perhaps you could be a bit more specific about what element(s) of your lyrics you consider cringeworthy?



Everything really. If it rhymes it feels cheezy, if it doesn't if feels stilted, if it has meaning it feels too unsubtle, if it doesn't it feels too random or pretentious. I wanna delete it all right away again, and it never forms a cohesive whole.

It would be ideal - but unrealistic - to be able to write on a level that makes me _want _to share the lyrics. But even just reaching a level where I think they don't suck so much that I'd be ashamed if others read them, seems far out of reach for me. There's for sure a lot of a me-problem at work here, since probably most "industry standard" blackmetal lyrics wouldn't make that cut for me either.




David Cuny said:


> Short answer: Study and write a lot. Like most things, songwriting is a craft.



The thing that makes it feel like a brickwall to me is that I hate everything I write, and I'm too frustrated by the whole process to get the practice in to get better. Catch-22.




David Cuny said:


> Respect your listeners, and ground your songs in emotional truth. Avoid cliches. Make sure your song says something. Rewriting is your friend: refine and focus.



Avoiding cliches in a genre built halfway out of cliches is quite a challenge though.




David Cuny said:


> The song structure and lyrics need to support each other. Each verse should say something new, moving to the climax of the song.



That reminds me of a video I once saw: 




I struggle with structure a lot in general, not just in lyrics. I think much of that is caused by me never having a strong desire to expressing something specific and thus not really having a clear goal. *)




David Cuny said:


> You can think of a song of as manipulating the listener into an emotional response. It's what the listener _expects_ from the song and lyrics: to be led on an emotional journey. By listening, they're giving themselves permission to feel things in a way that they may otherwise deny themselves.



This is something that I very much _believe _to be true, but have a very hard time to _relate _to. Because untypically for a "creator" I never saw anything I did as a form of self-expression. To the contrary, I have a distinct aversion to expressing anything personal at all in things that I create. My creative work is driven by fascination with craft, technology and aesthetics, and a desire to surprise/entertain myself by making or learning something new.




David Cuny said:


> Then again, sometimes lyrics of a song are just filler, so the band can play loud and the guitarists play lots of solos.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with that, either.



I tried programming a generator for blackmetal lyrics, thinking that at the very least it could be a tool that helps spark some ideas through random combinations of words. It didn't turn out so great but it probably had some merit as a learning excercise. 


*) I wonder if the things I should have tried to generate from randomness aren't the words, but the "intentions/goals". It's well known that setting a couple boundaries to work within make creative tasks a lot easier. But that also feels somewhat artistically bankrupt and like I have no business making "art" in the first place...


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## David Cuny (Sep 17, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I struggle with structure a lot in general, not just in lyrics. I think much of that is caused by me never having a strong desire to expressing something specific and thus not really having a clear goal.


*Caveat:* I'm just a guy who's written some mediocre songs. Other people are _vastly _more qualified than me. I'm really just an IT guy. Yada yada yada.

But since you seem to be doing this for fun - and your post reminds me a lot of myself - I'll go ahead and offer advice.

Why write a song at all? To justify the purchase of all these cool virtual instruments? 

When it comes to writing, an empty page is your enemy.

Structure and constraints are your friends. They keep you focused, and you don't have to "hope" that things work out.

Obviously, you've got to have _something _specific to write about. But that doesn't have to come from a strong, burning inner desire.

Here's a simple model that keeps you focused on an emotional arc:

*Chorus:* The song's high-level statement.
*Verse 1:* Hook the listener into the scene, describing _what's_ going wrong.
*Verse 2:* Tell them _how_ or _why_ everything went to hell.
*Verse 3:* Twist the knife and break your listener's heart.

Start with the chorus, statement of what the song is about.

Then create verses, the details that explain the chorus. There's no need to write them in order - in fact, it's probably better if you don't.

Although there are story elements, _unlike_ a story, a song doesn't have to resolve. It just needs to place the listener _into_ the situation. So don't worry about how to get out of the emotional hole you've dug yourself into!



> This is something that I very much _believe _to be true, but have a very hard time to _relate _to. Because untypically for a "creator" I never saw anything I did as a form of self-expression. To the contrary, I have a distinct aversion to expressing anything personal at all in things that I create. My creative work is driven by fascination with craft, technology and aesthetics, and a desire to surprise/entertain myself by making or learning something new.


The good news is that much of songwriting is about the details of the craft.

And it's actually to your advantage to _not_ think of songwriting as "self-expression", because that depersonalizes it. One of the paradoxes of songwriting is that even when you start out with a very personal experience, you'll end up translating it into something that's more universally understood and requires less words to get across.

After all, you're trying to get a _feeling_ across to the listener. Real life experiences are rarely dramatic enough for a song. Super size things a bit.

One songwriter's advice was to point out that no one really cares about your personal life, except perhaps your mother - and even then, there are limits to how much she cares.

The listener of your song doesn't care about you personally, and they aren't expecting you to give them some message of deep insight. So get over yourself, and write a song that delivers an emotional experience. Think about how what impact the words will have on them, not about the unimportant specifics about your life.



MartinH. said:


> I tried programming a generator for blackmetal lyrics, thinking that at the very least it could be a tool that helps spark some ideas through random combinations of words. It didn't turn out so great but it probably had some merit as a learning excercise.


What coder _hasn't_ done something like that?


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## Ashermusic (Sep 17, 2020)

Mostly I agree with the above, but the songs that I wrote with the late Paul Jabara: like “Two Lovers”, recorded by Julio Iglesias on his multi-platinum album “1100 Bel Air Place” and ”Something’s Missing In My Life”, top 3 in Australia and New Zealand by Marcia Hines, just to mention two, did _not_ start with the chorus, although they do both have hooky choruses. They started with the verses.

Other songs I have done have Some started with the melody, some with the lyrics, some with some of both.

Beware of “formulas.” There are lots of different kinds of great songs.


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## NekujaK (Sep 17, 2020)

Decades ago when I started writing songs, I did so just for my own self-expression. I would try my best to maintain good rhyming structures, but constantly broke patterns whenever I couldn't adequately "solve" a rhyming puzzle. Then two significant experiences educated me on the importance of good rhyming and proper crafting of words:

1. I made a focused study of Bob Dylan's lyrics and it was quite a revelation to see how dogmatically he sticks to rhyming patterns and cleverly constructs his rhymes so they're almost "transparent" to the listener, yet fit together seamlessly and convey the appropriate meaning without ever sounding contrived. This alone made me pay much more attention to proper rhyming and instantly improved my lyric writing tenfold. I still go back to Dylan's lyrics every so often just to remind myself how great lyrics are constructed.

2. I worked on a project where I wrote several songs for a seasoned vocalist/recording artist, and thru that experience learned the importance of writing "singable" lyrics. When I would present her with a new song, she'd invariably come back to me with notes about how certain phrases didn't sing well. Part of it was the choice of words themselves, part of it was how the rhymes were constructed, and part of it was how the words and melody aligned to place emphasis on the wrong words. This experience was another huge education for me in lyric writing.

Ultimately, lyrics need to make sense from a singing perspective, and need to make sense to the listener. Our brains are wired for pattern recognition, so once we hear an ABAB rhyming pattern established, it can be jarring to hear a sudden switch to an AABB pattern. This can be used to good effect, like switching the rhyming pattern in a chorus or bridge, but should be used with caution and for deliberate effect if switching among the verses.


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## bill5 (Sep 17, 2020)

David Cuny said:


> *Caveat:* I'm just a guy who's written some mediocre songs. Other people are _vastly _more qualified than me. I'm really just an IT guy.


Hey! As an IT guy who writes songs, I resemble that remark! 




> When it comes to writing, an empty page is your enemy.
> 
> Structure and constraints are your friends.


 I respectfully disagree on both counts, only meaning that they are neither friends nor enemies. An empty page is like an unexplored frontier to an explorer. I don't believe in writing for the sake of writing. And structure/constraint can be easily as bad as good. 

*



Chorus:

Click to expand...

*


> The song's high-level statement.
> *Verse 1:* Hook the listener into the scene, describing _what's_ going wrong.
> *Verse 2:* Tell them _how_ or _why_ everything went to hell.
> *Verse 3:* Twist the knife and break your listener's heart.


You realize he's writing heavy metal and not country, right?


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## bill5 (Sep 17, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Beware of “formulas.”


This needs to be "stickied" or at least repeated on a semi-regular basis


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## bill5 (Sep 17, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> once we hear an ABAB rhyming pattern established, it can be jarring to hear a sudden switch to an AABB pattern.


I respectfully disagree, but again it depends on the specifics. I think hearing some kind of rhyming pattern is far more important/notable than it being the same pattern throughout.


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## David Cuny (Sep 17, 2020)

bill5 said:


> You realize he's writing heavy metal and not country, right?


There's a difference? 

I don't disagree at all with any of the points you and others have made.


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## NekujaK (Sep 17, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I respectfully disagree, but again it depends on the specifics. I think hearing some kind of rhyming pattern is far more important/notable than it being the same pattern throughout.


I suppose it depends on how we define "jarring"  When I hear a deviation from an established rhyming pattern in a song, it causes me to take notice because the rhyme either ocurred or didn't ocurr where I was expecting it. Not necessarily "jarring", but it can be a surprise to the listener, and therefore is a technique that can be used to call attention to an important passage in the lyrics.


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## bill5 (Sep 17, 2020)

Yeah, like anything else, a question of degree!


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## chocobitz825 (Sep 17, 2020)

Being singable and having a semi-predictable format, mixed with the occasional unpredictable variation is ideal. A lot of this comes down to style and execution though. To even put emphasis on rhyming in English lyrics still need to consider the kind of rhyming structure used.

If it’s a strict rhyming structure like “love -> above”, it is very predictable, and limiting but easy to remember. One can find greater creative variation by keeping their rhmyes wider like “love -> drug” where the sounds are similar but not exact. It still creates the rhyme and rhythm needed for a sense of flow and familiarity, but won’t become so constrained when trying to make a song that maintains a message rather than just a nursery rhyme style rhyming structure.

one thing I hate is when a lyricist doesn’t value the sing-ability for a singer. The wrong flow can make a song feel impossible to sing. Alternatively too much emphasis on rhyme and no consideration of lyrical content leaves you with the case of arianna grande singing “now that I’ve become who I really are”. Those things kill it for singers.


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## Rex282 (Sep 17, 2020)

to Write a strong lyric you have to understand how to write.Unfortunately very few song lyrics are well written and almost all lyricist think they are brillant.....even more unfortunate most people don’t care.If a lyricist doesn’t know they suck they can never improve...at least you’re on you’re way.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 18, 2020)

The best thing you can do if you are beginning to write lyrics is to collaborate with someone you think it is greatat it and learn from them. My own lyrics improved dramatically because as a staff writer at Casablanca, I was also collaborating with exceptional lyricists.


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## Polkasound (Sep 18, 2020)

chocobitz825 said:


> Alternatively too much emphasis on rhyme and no consideration of lyrical content leaves you with the case of arianna grande singing “now that I’ve become who I really are”



I read about that. Those grammatically incorrect lyrics came from Max Martin. Ariana fought with him on that line, but eventually capitulated, and the lyrics stuck. It's my opinion that Max leveraged his reputation to bend the rules a lot further than the average songwriter could. That line is absolutely dreadful.

When Ed Sheeran came out with _Thinking Out Loud_, the very first line jumped out at me: "When your legs don't work like they used to before". I remember thinking to myself, "Before what?" Bending the rules of grammar in songwriting does not come easy for me, but I'm learning to be less critical of it. I've made some sacrifices over the years, but "who I really are"... no. That will _never_ come from my pen.


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## GtrString (Sep 18, 2020)

Rhymes can quickly become meaningless and sound dated. Its key to rhyme words that you want to be highlighted in a lysic. If you just rhyme heart with smart, it wont sound musical. In music, lyrics has to be musical too, and its more musical if it makes sense in context.

Its a fine art, and there is a lot of good stuff out there. Contemporary songs tend to use imperfect rhymes, and more inner rhymes than too predictable schemes. The trick is to do that and still maintain a structure that can work as a song form.


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## David Cuny (Sep 18, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> I read about that. Those grammatically incorrect lyrics came from Max Martin. Ariana fought with him on that line, but eventually capitulated, and the lyrics stuck. It's my opinion that Max leveraged his reputation to bend the rules a lot further than the average songwriter could. That line is absolutely dreadful.


Personally, I admire lyricists who can write conversationally and rhyme unobtrusively. That is, the craft is largely invisible, and feels natural.

Of course, there are always exceptions to rules - sometimes you actually want to break that fourth wall and have clever lyrics call attention to themselves. Different genres use language differently, and speak with a different voice. But it should always be in service of the song, and serve some function to justify potentially jolting the listener out of the song.

In _Tunesmith: Inside the Art of Songwriting _- a _great_ read - Jimmy Webb writes:



Jimmy Webb said:


> When we break the rules is is essential that we weigh the risk. We must ask ourselves what is gained by using unconventional or even substandard materials (false rhymes, blank verse, etc.). Like the architect we may come to the conclusion that we will have to bend the rules to create a free-standing arched dome fifteen hundred feet in diameter. Can we make it stand? Can we make it beautiful?


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## MartinH. (Sep 18, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Rhymes can quickly become meaningless and sound dated.



I just checked if the lyrics of a couple of my favorite blackmetal bands rhyme and of those that I listened to the most, almost none rhyme. Sometimes I even thought "man the rythm of that doesn't really flow all that well", but it still turned into the band that I listened to most in recent years. I wonder if there's an aspect of "because of" and not "in spite of". Iirc Mike Verta once said he planned tracks on his first album to be various degrees of "challenging", so that there's something catchy and easily digestible to get you hooked, and other pieces are more complex and require listening more often to get into and appreciate. So by design the "favorite track" of any listener is supposed to change over time. With the albums that I like I don't feel like they employ something like that, but I wonder if there is some degree of "roughness" (for lack of a better word) in the lyrics, that adds to the "longevity" of a track. It could be coincidence, but the track that I thought had some of the most catchy and well rhyming lyrics by blackmetal standards, turned out to be one that I listened to the least. Somehow I get tired of it real quick.



David Cuny said:


> *Caveat:* I'm just a guy who's written some mediocre songs. Other people are _vastly _more qualified than me. I'm really just an IT guy. Yada yada yada.
> 
> But since you seem to be doing this for fun - and your post reminds me a lot of myself - I'll go ahead and offer advice.
> 
> ...



Thanks again for the fantastic advice! I think there's a lot that should be applicable to blackmetal as well, I'll take some notes and save them to my lyrics folder to remind me. I'll let you know if it worked .


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## Polkasound (Sep 18, 2020)

David Cuny said:


> Personally, I admire lyricists who can write conversationally and rhyme unobtrusively. That is, the craft is largely invisible, and feels natural.



To me, that's really the pinnacle of songwriting. It's a skill that comes naturally for a few gifted people, and for the rest of us, we need to invest the time into developing it.



David Cuny said:


> Different genres use language differently, and speak with a different voice.



Very true. Max obviously felt Ariana's crowd would be OK with "who I really are", but if he were writing a song for a Michael Buble Christmas album, I'm confident he'd tighten up the rules.


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## GtrString (Sep 18, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I just checked if the lyrics of a couple of my favorite blackmetal bands rhyme and of those that I listened to the most, almost none rhyme. Sometimes I even thought "man the rythm of that doesn't really flow all that well", but it still turned into the band that I listened to most in recent years. I wonder if there's an aspect of "because of" and not "in spite of".



Yeah, I think its really important to understand lyrics as part of a musical conversation, and we like to talk naturally with people. Achieving that kind of honesty while still cashing in on artistic goals and applying writing craft, is the pinnacle of synergy that so many of us chase..


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## Wally Garten (Sep 18, 2020)

This is a fascinating conversation and I sort of wish @Mike Greene would create a subforum for technical discussion of lyrics. I'm learning a ton from you guys already.

I wrote poetry before I started making music, and I still tend to drift back and forth between what might be called "spoken word" and actual lyric writing. (It's not just me -- some of my favorite songs fit this model: Alice's Restaurant, several songs on Tom Waits' Nighthawks at the Diner, New Moon by MC 900 Ft. Jesus....) 

But man -- as both a big old school hip-hop head and fan of the Great American Songbook, I do love rhymed lyrics, and I'm trying to learn more about writing them.

One trick I really like from lyricists like Eminem is to have a long, long verse and mix up the A and B rhymes unevenly, with lines of different lengths and rhythms, and a few non-rhyming bits as well. So part of the fun for listener is wondering where each rhyme is coming next. Here's a section of something I'm working on as part of a project about environmental issues and the solarpunk philosophy:

Mice and rats and mosquitoes
Viral reservoirs
Overbred and overfed
They can adapt to shops and cars
But their predators are dead
Gone for a concrete bed
Gone for apartment towers instead
For our expanding ecological repertoire
In civilization, there’s no body
Only head
Urbanization is a head in a jar
Why wouldn’t you expect parasites
That’s natural
When you’re dead
When you’re a dead head in a jar


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## tf-drone (Sep 18, 2020)

Hi,

I can only give advice on Hip Hop grunts. Take any preschool book to read to any 2yo. Replace any verb with f*ck or anything youngish and vulgar sounding. Replace any substantive with any swear word you come across. That's it.

For any other genre - what sounds good and has meaning is a good start.

High level poetry is quite another matter of course. Apart form the classical Lieder, like Schubert's Winterreise, I can only name Loreena McKennit's efforts. Perhaps 'Lady of Shalott' or several Shakespeare poems, a great listen!


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## Stringtree (Sep 18, 2020)

Just as in conversational speech, lyrics are enriched by experimentation and the evolution of language. A lot of these songwriting-craft rhyming schemes are predicated on the music doing ABAB things as well, but what if the music doesn't do that? 

Consider the recicative in an opera. Not a hit song, but it's got a different function. 

Someone who had a bunch of hit songs did an oddball album:



Again, not a hit song, but painterly. 

Someone skilled with words, who knows the rules, and breaks them with wit, glee, and more than a little forcefulness. 

In business writing, I expect the rap of a ruler across my knuckles if I misstep. In creative writing, the ruler is mine.


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## Brian2112 (Sep 18, 2020)

Ok. I really tried to avoid the thread, but I might as well share some of what I have learned as a “trained” lyricist since it will go to waste anyway. I hate writing lyrics. Some people love it.

Rule #1: NEVER rhyme “fire” with “desire”. This will get you a town stoning (if the town happens to be trained lyricists).

Learn all the song forms i.e. Verse/Chorus, Verse/Refrain, Verse/Transitional Bridge/Chorus/Bridge/ Chorus. And of course AB, ABAC, ABACAB (Genesis joke) and so on.


Keep it moving both with rhyme scheme and symmetry and asymmetry in stressed/non stressed syllables.


Map out your stressed and unstressed syllables.


/-/-/-/ would be MAry HAD a LITtle LAMB


Use this trick to accentuate your chorus. For example:


/-/-/-/

/-/-/

/-/-/-/

/-/-/




/-/-/-/

/-/-/

/-/-/-/ (Musically you would normally put the five of I chord here)


Chorus goes here and resolves asymmetrical verse with what you expect also resolving musically to the tonic:


/-/-/


After this anything goes.


Be careful with perfect rhymes, the definition of which is that the vowel sound of the last stressed syllable determines a perfect rhyme. Which also means that the words “Abe” and Baby” are a perfect rhyme but may not be what you are trying to achieve.


Stressed syllables in melodies are usually higher in pitch and longer in duration with unstressed syllables the opposite.

Remember the meaning of your words can also change with where you put stresses.


Consider this sentence:

_*Throw the ball to me.*_

Depending on where the stresses are and how you set them musically it can mean very different things:


THROW the ball to me (instead of kick it)


Throw the BALL to me (not that big rock over there)


Throw the ball TO me (not in the ditch)


Throw the ball to ME (not Karen)



Lastly, someone posted that lyrics don’t necessarily have to stand on their own but mostly compliment the music. That may be true, but for what it’s worth, at Berklee lyric writing and music writing where taught separately for precisely the reason that it was felt that both should be able to stand on their own. Putting it all together came later.


That’s all for me for now. Hope it helps. I’ve been trying to forget all this shit. Did I mention that I hate writing lyrics?


Best,

2112


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## Wally Garten (Sep 18, 2020)

Brian2112 said:


> And of course AB, ABAC, ABACAB (Genesis joke)



❤


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## bill5 (Sep 18, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Rhymes can quickly become meaningless and sound dated. Its key to rhyme words that you want to be highlighted in a lysic. If you just rhyme heart with smart, it wont sound musical.


I respectfully disagree on both counts. The words you rhyme don't have to be words you think are "important" to the song per se, and rhyming heart with smart may indeed sound very musical; it all depends on the specifics...


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## Bman70 (Sep 18, 2020)

Brian2112 said:


> Rule #1: NEVER rhyme “fire” with “desire”. This will get you a town stoning (if the town happens to be trained lyricists).



Bruce Springsteen famously broke this rule with his song "I'm On Fire" – which also is notable by its lack of a full traditional chorus, instead repeating only the line "oooh, I'm on fire" as a refrain. Rhyming, of course, with "desire." 

Personally, I would very much advise against trying to learn songwriting or lyric writing by attempting to learn formulas or rules. Instead, I would suggest listening to, transcribing, and then learning and performing as many iconic songs as possible. You'll absorb all the important things by osmosis, and much more quickly .


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## Ashermusic (Sep 18, 2020)

A Diane Warren hit song is not like a Taylor Swift hit song, is not like a Billie Eilish song is not like a Bob Dylan song is not like a Springsteen song is not like an EDM song is not like a Death Metal song....

There are principles for each genre. There are those who follow them and those who break them. And as with every kind of music, people who are knowledgeable about the principles break them more successfully than those who don‘t.

But they are not codifiable. Listen to the songwriters you love. Check out what they do. Take what you can use, discard what you cannot and write a lot of songs, bad, good, indifferent. If you have talent, sinner or later you will write more good ones.

Some of you have been very kind in your comments about my recent songs I have posted, which I appreciate, but I have been writing songs for over 55 years, so I ought to be pretty good.


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## Polkasound (Sep 18, 2020)

Brian2112 said:


> Rule #1: NEVER rhyme “fire” with “desire”. This will get you a town stoning (if the town happens to be trained lyricists).



In polka music, there are certain rhymes that are so hackneyed, you can hear them coming a mile away:

"happy song" + "sing along"
"dance" + "romance"
"wonderful day" + "dance your cares away"
"if you marry me" + "so happy we will be"

Usually when an amateur musician boasts of having written a new polka, it's almost always a cookie-cutter string of hackneyed phrases like the ones above. But the funny thing is that polka people still like their sappy lyrics. If you wrote a polka like that, it could fetch an award. (Just don't run the lyrics by me first, because I will stone you.)


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## bill5 (Sep 18, 2020)

tf-drone said:


> I’ve been trying to forget all this shit. Did I mention that I hate writing lyrics?


Small wonder (on both counts) if that's how you someone tried to teach you how to write lyrics. Wow. If I was thinking of just starting out and that's how it was presented to me I'd hate it too. And that's not on you, that's on people teaching it like that. It reminds me of piano teachers who think you have to spend the first 6 months of lessons (at least) playing scales 500,000 times and learn everything there is to learn about music theory before you're allowed to play anything more interesting or complex than "Oh Susannah." They suck all the joy out of it with such mechanical drudgery. I'm not saying that stuff doesn't matter of course, but cmon, it's MUSIC, not linear algebra.

This is even more so IMO with lyrics. With music, there is much more in the way of black and white facts...scales, chords, chord progressions, and so forth. Lyrics are almost entirely free of such constraints, with very little in the way of "rules" or mechanics, and none which are set in concrete.

I don't know, maybe it's my stream-of-consciousness style, maybe it's just that I'm lazy...maybe it's a combo...but I think that for me at least, and I think can be for most others, writing lyrics is about 98% the creative process and 2% "rules" and structure etc, which should all be taken with a grain of salt anyway. 

And I think this is a kinda "you got it or you don't" thing. You can study it and learn this or that, but you have to have a knack....I think good lyricists tend to instinctively know when something works or it doesn't and why. Just like some people can practice piano 8 hrs a day for years and never be more than competent if that, or they can be incredible opera singers but couldn't sing jazz to save their life, there are some people that just don't have lyric writing in them. And there's nothing wrong with that at all, because we all have things we're good at and not good at.

But I think the best, easiest AND quickest way to improve and learn is to "cheat"...look at lyrics of songs that you think are great . Then do that. (OK a little easier said than done) Conversely, notice lousy lyrics and why they're lousy. Don't do that. A simple example is well-worn, cliched expressions like "cuts like a knife" or "cold as ice." I wouldn't put those lyrics down if you aimed a gun at my head. And when I say "do that," I mean notice but don't obsess about following or memorizing what they do, esp since good lyrics vary a lot that way. But you should start to see commonalities. 

My "I've had a few beers and blathering on more than I should" take for now.


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## bill5 (Sep 18, 2020)

Annnd I should have read the rest of the posts before saying some things that others said first. (Well wth I did say cheat didn't I)


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## Brian2112 (Sep 19, 2020)

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I learned what I learned, I'm just a prog rock head, so I'm more into music than lyrics. I love Neil Peart's lyrics although by what I learned, they can be technically 'Incorrect'. He even used the fire/desire thing a few times which I was able to overlook. Rules are meant to be broken (or better yet, replaced with your own rules). I'm a drummer who learned music theory too, which I just toss and write by ear unless I get stuck. Still, they can be useful tools if applied appropriately. EDIT: not to mention that I think (I hope) it makes me play percussion more musically.


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## GtrString (Sep 19, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I respectfully disagree on both counts. The words you rhyme don't have to be words you think are "important" to the song per se, and rhyming heart with smart may indeed sound very musical; it all depends on the specifics...



Yes, and you can disagree here and be right as well. Lyrics is such an open thing, and highly dependent om artistic goals and context. Cliches are part of the toolbox and can be part of references and tradition too. You can basically do anything. Its impossible to establish universal criteria.

I will say, though. Very, very, very, very, very, very few can do lyrics well. I dont believe in the «I walked in from the street, and did my first lyric in 15mins, and it turned out awesome» thing. You might do a great lyric in 15mins, but it requires years of training.

In pop.. who cares?


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## bill5 (Sep 20, 2020)

GtrString said:


> You might do a great lyric in 15mins, but it requires years of training.


It really doesn't; that's part of my point. I don't have a specific example off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many great lyricists out there who didn't have a lick of training...in fact, I'd go as far as to suspect that's the norm, not the exception, and I guarantee there are many examples of great lyrics that simply came to people that training had nothing to do with. Really "lyric training" is a dicey proposition overall IMO. I can believe can help, but it doesn't necessarily, and could even be detrimental (though that's less likely in most cases), because I think it's possible to be too analytical about it, getting in the way of the creative process. Maybe just a question of degree along with the given person's innate ability.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 20, 2020)

bill5 said:


> It really doesn't; that's part of my point. I don't have a specific example off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many great lyricists out there who didn't have a lick of training...in fact, I'd go as far as to suspect that's the norm, not the exception, and I guarantee there are many examples of great lyrics that simply came to people that training had nothing to do with. Really "lyric training" is a dicey proposition overall IMO. I can believe can help, but it doesn't necessarily, and could even be detrimental (though that's less likely in most cases), because I think it's possible to be too analytical about it, getting in the way of the creative process. Maybe just a question of degree along with the given person's innate ability.



well, that evaluation depends on how you define a great lyric, and that is generational, genre specific, and so many other qualifiers that consensus is unlikely.

Pop Songwriters of my generation view lyric writing as a craft, not just art. And as wtih all crafts work, time and some study of others is elemental.


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## Stringtree (Sep 20, 2020)

I'm just guessing here, but a writer of quality lyrics has probably _*derived joy*_ from reading a wide variety of source material over a significant period of time. Soaked up a lot of emotion, style, and craft from exposure to great writing. Humorous or clever writing. Storytelling. 

The other side of the house might be exposure to music of the same depth. Singing, even badly oneself, to innately understand what sings well, how to breathe.

It might be the same familiarity with the raw ingredients, time and temperature, and sound technique that gives the simplest of culinary creations just the right snap and punch in competent hands. 

Let an exuberant newbie loose in a kitchen, and the results aren't going to be pretty. Some foundational knowledge of the conventions in a particular area is essential. So as @Ashermusic points out, a lyricist needs to know the turf, more or less. 

Did Sting _love _books? Probably. Did reading literature influence his lyric writing? Gonna say yah. 

Are many lyrics poesy and frivolous? Sure. There's a place for those too. 

"Effective" songs might tend to follow the classical dramatic arc. They might not. They might sound like nonsense (Tori Amos in the 90s) and then years later seem mild because the world has changed. 

Still a good thready-thread goin' here.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 20, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> They might sound like nonsense (Tori Amos in the 90s) and then years later seem mild because the world has changed.



Tori’s “Winter” is one of my favorite lyrics, literally brought me to tears because it was exactly what I wanted to communicate to my daughter.


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## Stringtree (Sep 20, 2020)

When you gonna make up your mind? 
When you gonna love you as much as I do?
When you gonna make up your mind?
'Cause things are gonna change so fast
All the white horses are still in bed
I tell you that I'll always want you near
You say that things change, my dear


Whew... That was hard to type. I had to wipe my eyes with my shirt. When the white horses "have gone ahead" it kills me.

"Book of Love," first by The Magnetic Fields, then spun into gold by Peter Gabriel. 

I think that an aspiring lyricist hoping to do anything of consequence has *got *to be touched deeply by great writing. If this kind of foundation-shaking sentiment is not resident in the grasshopper, might as well find something else to do. 

This probably applies to music as well. Seriously.


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## GtrString (Sep 20, 2020)

bill5 said:


> It really doesn't; that's part of my point. I don't have a specific example off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many great lyricists out there who didn't have a lick of training...in fact, I'd go as far as to suspect that's the norm, not the exception, and I guarantee there are many examples of great lyrics that simply came to people that training had nothing to do with. Really "lyric training" is a dicey proposition overall IMO. I can believe can help, but it doesn't necessarily, and could even be detrimental (though that's less likely in most cases), because I think it's possible to be too analytical about it, getting in the way of the creative process. Maybe just a question of degree along with the given person's innate ability.



We sure disagree here. Im basically on the other side of the world. I don't think you can write ****, if you don't master language to its fullest. 99% of writers don't have a clue, and popular lyrics are 99% sheid.. but it's my opinion, so I don't expect us to agree. No worries.


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## Thundercat (Sep 20, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> The late great Hal David hated what is often referred to as “ bastard” rhymes, but I sometimes employ them, but mostly not.


One wonderful trick is to use the stupid word first, then rhyme a normal word. That way it seems you used the stupid word on purpose

For example, "She loved the sunset on the isthmus. She meet her family last Christmas"

Vs the other way 'round...

Just a thought.


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## NekujaK (Sep 20, 2020)

It can work the other way too, of course:

_She said, "it's really not my habit to intrude
Furthermore, I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued_

Only Paul Simon could use a word like "misconstrued" in a pop song and make it work for the masses  Not to mention throwing "furthermore" in there, as well!


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## Ashermusic (Sep 20, 2020)

NekujaK said:


> It can work the other way too, of course:
> 
> _She said, "it's really not my habit to intrude
> Furthermore, I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued_
> ...



Well, Paul is a genius, and I don't throw that word around lightly. I am the local golf pro, he is Tiger Woods


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## Keith Levenson (Sep 20, 2020)

The greatest living lyricist (IMHO) STEPHEN SONDHEIM , has always said that lazy rhymes are simply the lyricist being lazy. He also says that rhyming should be both fresh and inevitable. Personally, I agree, but I also subscribe to another theory: great songwriting must relate to great story telling. Most great songs have a beginning , a middle and an end. FWIW, I spend an enormous amount of time writing lyrics and I find that if I devise an interesting and often peculiar situation, I wind up with a good lyric. I'll use one more Sondheim tidbit: if you tell me to write a song about a lady in a red dress, I wouldn't know what to do. If you tell me that lady is sitting alone at a bar, I can tell a story.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 20, 2020)

Keith Levenson said:


> The greatest living lyricist (IMHO) STEPHEN SONDHEIM , has always said that lazy rhymes are simply the lyricist being lazy. He also says that rhyming should be both fresh and inevitable. Personally, I agree, but I also subscribe to another theory: great songwriting must relate to great story telling. Most great songs have a beginning , a middle and an end. FWIW, I spend an enormous amount of time writing lyrics and I find that if I devise an interesting and often peculiar situation, I wind up with a good lyric. I'll use one more Sondheim tidbit: if you tell me to write a song about a lady in a red dress, I wouldn't know what to do. If you tell me that lady is sitting alone at a bar, I can tell a story.



I have a tidbit for Soundheim, he should give the singers some places to breathe. 

As good as he is, and obviously he is great, I don’t consider him” the greatest living lyricist.”


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## Keith Levenson (Sep 20, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> I have a tidbit for Soundheim, he should give the singers some places to breathe.
> 
> As good as he is, and obviously he is great, I don’t consider him” the greatest living lyricist.”


I LOVE these discussions. Who do think is the greatest living lyricist. This is not to incite any kind of argument. I truly value what other's sing. And yes, he should give the singers some places to breathe. I call him right after Roshashonah. Not...


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## Ashermusic (Sep 20, 2020)

Keith Levenson said:


> I LOVE these discussions. Who do think is the greatest living lyricist. This is not to incite any kind of argument. I truly value what other's sing. And yes, he should give the singers some places to breathe. I call him right after Roshashonah. Not...



Well I don’t believe with anything there is a single “greatest”, but fior me personally, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, Randy Newman, just for starters.

For Broadway, maybe Jason Robert Brown, Lin Manuel Miranda?


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## Keith Levenson (Sep 20, 2020)

Absolutely right. All of them. I conducted the National Tour of Bridges of Madison County so I'm a little biased. 
(I'd put Harry Nilsson and Leonard Cohen right up there)


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## Ashermusic (Sep 20, 2020)

Keith Levenson said:


> Absolutely right. All of them. I conducted the National Tour of Bridges of Madison County so I'm a little biased.
> (I'd put Harry Nilsson and Leonard Cohen right up there)



Harry isn’t living, for a long time now.


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## Keith Levenson (Sep 20, 2020)

Ah yes. Point taken.


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## Polkasound (Sep 20, 2020)

GtrString said:


> Im basically on the other side of the world. I don't think you can write ****, if you don't master language to its fullest.



I disagree with this, because I believe everyone on Earth is born with a knack for something, whether it's sports, mathematics, photography, singing, law enforcement, wine tasting, auto mechanics, or whatever. This includes songwriting.

If you have a knack for songwriting, you only need to be old enough to have had basic instruction in reading and writing, because your knack is what makes you great at taking the words and meanings you've learned and conveying them in a particularly beautiful way. Taylor Swift has a knack for songwriting. At 14, she was wowing songwriters on Nashville's Music Row with her lyrics and catchy hooks.


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## MartinH. (Sep 20, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> I disagree with this, because I believe everyone on Earth is born with a knack for something, whether it's sports, mathematics, photography, singing, law enforcement, wine tasting, auto mechanics, or whatever. This includes songwriting.
> 
> If you have a knack for songwriting, you only need to be old enough to have had basic instruction in reading and writing, because your knack is what makes you great at taking the words and meanings you've learned and conveying them in a particularly beautiful way. Taylor Swift has a knack for songwriting. At 14, she was wowing songwriters on Nashville's Music Row with her lyrics and catchy hooks.



Astounding things can be taught if the right methods are used - at the right time.
"Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise" by Ericsson and Pool is a very interesting book on the topic. It describes among other things an experiment where a researcher raised his 3 daughters to become chess prodigies:








László Polgár - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I believe many/most people will by chance stumble into one or two things that they like and thus get good at. Liking something is important to stick with one thing long enough to put in the necessary hours.


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## Rex282 (Sep 20, 2020)

To oversimplify:
There is crafty and there is clever.The crafty can be clever sometimes and the clever can be crafty sometimes however if you are crafty and clever you can be both alot. Unfortunately there are very few lyricist that are both, usually for the same reason...contempt.

The great composers were both crafty and clever or they wouldn’t be great composers.It makes no sense to me when someone who is clever(natural talent) and refuse to learn craft as if it were a disease that would kill their creativity.


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## bill5 (Sep 20, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> well, that evaluation depends on how you define a great lyric, and that is generational, genre specific, and so many other qualifiers that consensus is unlikely.
> 
> Pop Songwriters of my generation view lyric writing as a craft, not just art. And as wtih all crafts work, time and some study of others is elemental.


I disagree that it is generational or genre specific - great lyrics transcend that - but you're absolutely right that various things go into it, and of course it is subjective as well. As for art vs craft, again absolutely - I just think, generally speaking, it's more art than craft.


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## bill5 (Sep 20, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> Astounding things can be taught if the right methods are used - at the right time.


I disagree. You cannot be taught to be astounding. Teaching and learning and studying the craft/etc can certainly help, but ultimately greatness comes from within. You got it or you don't, as they say in show biz.




GtrString said:


> We sure disagree here. Im basically on the other side of the world. I don't think you can write ****, if you don't master language to its fullest. 99% of writers don't have a clue, and popular lyrics are 99% sheid.. but it's my opinion, so I don't expect us to agree. No worries.


It's fine to agree to disagree, no worries. But I think that's like saying you have to become a concert pianist who has mastered the likes of Beethoven and Liszt before you can play anything worthwhile, which is pretty silly. This is not an all or nothing thing.

I do think it would be interesting to see what kind of training many of highly-regarded lyricists have had in writing. I suspect many of them had little to none.


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## bill5 (Sep 20, 2020)

Keith Levenson said:


> I LOVE these discussions. Who do think is the greatest living lyricist. This is not to incite any kind of argument.


Yeah right  Really that probably merits its own thread... 

Regardless some great discussion here all whether I agree with you or not, props!


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## Ashermusic (Sep 20, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I disagree that it is generational or genre specific - great lyrics transcend that - but you're absolutely right that various things go into it, and of course it is subjective as well. As for art vs craft, again absolutely - I just think, generally speaking, it's more art than craft.



Of course it is. Please point me to a contemporary lyric that, is remotely like a Cole Porter lyric. And please point me to a death metal lyric that sounds remotely like the great pop lyrics Paul Williams wrote to Roger Nichols music like “Rainy Days And Monday’s“ and”We’ve Only JustBegun” or Bill Wither’s “Grandma’s Hands.” And how do any of those resemble Bob Dylans’s abstract “Tombstone Blues” or “Like A Rolling Stone.”

They operate from different aesthetics.

And you don’t think it’s craft because unlike songwriters like me, who tried to get our songs signed by publishers, you didn’t bring songs in and have the publishers teach you about how you were, for example, essentially paraphrasing your verse 1 ideas in verse 2 and encourage you to introduce new ideas in that, or show you how your hook could be stronger if you moved into a slightly higher tessitura. 

In that era, from 1930- 1970 , it definitely was more craft than art and any art that was created was only because they were so talented, because Leiber and Stiller, Mann and Weil, Bacharach and David, Barry and Greenfiled, etc. had only two goals: get their songs on the radio and make some money.

Barry Mann did not know they were creating art when he and Cynthia and Phil Spector wrote “Yo’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feeling”, they just were just trying to write a hit.

The advent of the singer-songwriters in the ‘70’s changed that, because many of them were concerned with creating art, although the best ones had a high level of craft, while others wrote a lot of pompous, self indulgent bullshit posing as art, in my opinion.

Jeff Barry produced some of Neil Diamond’s early hits, which were well crafted because he was not yetva successful artist but looking for covers. Later, in Jeff’s view, he became more self indulgent because his fans would buy it anyway. Jeff said, “when I hear Neil’s song “If You Know What I Mean” I yell at the radio, “No!” 😆


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## bill5 (Sep 20, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Of course it is. Please point me to a contemporary lyric that, is remotely like a Cole Porter lyric.


1. Define "contemporary." Last 5 yrs? 10? 20? 30? More?
2. "Like" is far diff story than comparable in quality. But really...so you're saying nothing of comparable quality has been written in "contemporary" music? 

And really, if I did, I think you're just itching to go "no way," and again it's all subjective anyway. 

But I think you missed my overall point: great lyrics are great lyrics. If they were great in 1940, they still are today; if they were great in 2010, they still are as well. That they were written in different times and/or genres doesn't change that. In fact you partially backed it up with your Cole Porter reference; only an ignorant fool (hopefully youth is their excuse) would consider his stuff less than great, even though it was well before their time. It's similar with great movies or novels. Greatness transcends time. 



> And please point me to a death metal lyric


  Pass. But way to cherry pick (on a) low-hanging fruit. I'm surprised you didn't include rap. FYI there are other genres still in existence which would measure up far better...



> And you don’t think it’s craft


I never said or implied that; in fact, I made a point of clarifying to the contrary. Please don't twist my words. 



> In that era, from 1930- 1970 , it definitely was more craft than art and any art that was created was only because they were so talented, because Leiber and Stiller, Mann and Weil, Bacharach and David, Barry and Greenfiled, etc. had only two goals: get their songs on the radio and make some money.


Curious that you excluded people like Lennon and McCartney, Dylan (I could go on) who also were looking to make money...but that was far from their "only" goal.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 21, 2020)

My biggest problem , really only problem, is that you say "great lyrics are great lyrics." It totally depends on how you define a "great" lyric.

For some people, a great lyric is one that communicates, regardless of the level of craft. I am ok with that standard for others, just not for myself.

For people like me, a level of craft we deem professional is important. Not saying it has to be for everyone. I never tell people that should not like what they like and not like what they don't.

And yes, The Beatles developed a high level of craft, and later became artistically ambitious, but in the _beginning_ all they wanted was to go to "the Toppermost of the Poppermost."

And in the beginning Dylan mostly wanted to be famous. He used to travel around and tell people he was the hit making pop recording artist Bobby Vee


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## danevaz (Sep 21, 2020)

Late 60s (age) songwriter. Been attending songwriting “workshops” in and around the NYC area for the last 10 years or so. Most of the songs presented are pop/folk/country with an occasional “show tune.“ Rarely encounter “art songs,” or “American songbook” style material. With that said…

Craft is part of the deal. Knowing when to remove a rhyme or line that you think is “oh so clever” (but it doesn’t work within the flow/delivery of the song). Knowing when to remove a superfluous verse. Being sensitive to song length, and what you’re asking of the listener, in this short attention span age (yeah I know Dylan wrote songs with 17 verses – get that comment all the time).

Revise, revise, revise! There’s an expression that comes up in one of my workshops: “You have to kill your babies.” We’re all aware of the romantic notion of the genius lyricist/songwriter where the lyrics just pour out onto the paper (or computer these days) – and it’s a keeper. I’m sure it happens, but more often than not you have to make tough choices about your “baby,” and revise, revise, revise!

Knowing when (and how) to bend the form/structure. You’re doing a standard verse1, verse2, pre-chorus, refrain, etc., but in the last verse you sneak in a line with a few extra syllables, or you purposely add a fifth line to what was a four line verse structure – all without losing the flow. That’s the craft of songwriting.


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## bill5 (Sep 22, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> My biggest problem , really only problem, is that you say "great lyrics are great lyrics." It totally depends on how you define a "great" lyric.


Certainly like with anything musical (or art in general), there is some subjectivity. But greatness generally tends to transcend that as well, with a universal agreement on its quality that holds up over time.


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## JohnG (Sep 23, 2020)

bill5 said:


> it's MUSIC, not linear algebra



Actually, linear algebra can be quite stimulating....




Polkasound said:


> law enforcement



My dream job. Had to abandon it and stuck writing music.


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## JohnG (Sep 23, 2020)

Back to the lyric business. IDK anything about it. I don't think that traditional forms are bad or good exactly but, like anything, if _everything_ is the same-as-usual, it better have a great hook and a nice dance beat, or a really good-looking lead singer, or -- ugh.

I just wrote an actual song with lyrics, something I've almost never done. I like it but it's not really a pop song or a show tune or anything.

I've found Kendrick Lamar pretty inspiring as far as pushing rhythmic and lyric -- everything -- into different shapes and feels. Anyone else a fan?


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## doctoremmet (Sep 23, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Anyone else a fan?


My daughter is, and by proxy, I am now one too.


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## jesc126 (Sep 23, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> ......
> 
> There are principles for each genre. There are those who follow them and those who break them. And as with every kind of music, people who are knowledgeable about the principles break them more successfully than those who don‘t.
> 
> .......


 
100% agree with this. You have to learn the rules/formulas in order to break them successfully. 

David Byrne describes his process as doing a few passes of 'singing gibberish' over an instrumental track and then sitting down and listening back to that with pen and paper to search for some words/phrases that might fit. I've found this to be a much faster way to get a coherent melody and lyric than starting with a page of words and no music. 

In my opinion, most songs that just sound "amateurish" even when they are well performed and produced, is due to boring/predictable/repetitive rhythm of the melody itself.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 24, 2020)

Actually, at this time the radio is jam packed with songs with boring/predictabl/repetitive rhythm of the melody itself.

Look, I could point out all my songwriting credits and say that it means I know more than most here, but all it proves is that in a certain genre at a certain point in time, I could write songs with decent lyrics that were commercially viable. And my new songs still are roughly in that bag, which is no longer commercially viable, but it’s what I know and what I love to write, so I do.


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## bill5 (Sep 24, 2020)

jesc126 said:


> David Byrne describes his process as doing a few passes of 'singing gibberish' over an instrumental track and then sitting down and listening back to that with pen and paper to search for some words/phrases that might fit. .


I think that's a rather common practice, in fact. Or used to be.


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## NekujaK (Sep 24, 2020)

bill5 said:


> I think that's a rather common practice, in fact. Or used to be.


That is, in fact, how Paul Simon says he writes.

One of my favorite songwriting stories comes from Arlo Guthrie. When he was asked about his song "Darkest Hour", which is very Dylan-esque and one of Guthrie's better songs, he replied that he views songwriting like fishing in river, and each fish you catch is a song. The bigger the fish, the better the song. The problem is, he said, is that Bob Dylan is fishing much further upstream and is catching all the big fish before they can make it down to the rest of us. But apparently "Darkest Hour" slipped by Dylan, and Guthrie was lucky enough to catch it.


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## Brian2112 (Sep 24, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> Actually, at this time the radio is jam packed with songs with boring/predictabl/repetitive rhythm of the melody itself.
> 
> Look, I could point out all my songwriting credits and say that it means I know more than most here, but all it proves is that in a certain genre at a certain point in time, I could write songs with decent lyrics that were commercially viable. And my new songs still are roughly in that bag, which is no longer commercially viable, but it’s what I know and what I love to write, so I do.


Screw it then. Have some fun and write some prog! It’s making a big comeback (especially In Europe). Would love to hear that!


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## Craig Duke (Sep 25, 2020)

Keith Levenson said:


> The greatest living lyricist (IMHO) STEPHEN SONDHEIM , has always said that lazy rhymes are simply the lyricist being lazy. He also says that rhyming should be both fresh and inevitable. Personally, I agree, but I also subscribe to another theory: great songwriting must relate to great story telling. Most great songs have a beginning , a middle and an end. FWIW, I spend an enormous amount of time writing lyrics and I find that if I devise an interesting and often peculiar situation, I wind up with a good lyric. I'll use one more Sondheim tidbit: if you tell me to write a song about a lady in a red dress, I wouldn't know what to do. If you tell me that lady is sitting alone at a bar, I can tell a story.


This is the quote Keith Levenson mentioned: "If you ask me to write a love song, I don't know what to write. But if you say, 'Now write me a love song about a girl who's just been jilted by a guy and she comes into a bar and she's in a red dress and she orders a grasshopper, that I can write. Now, I have a drink to write about, there's a bar to write about, there's a dress to write about," Mr. Sondheim said. "Why did she choose that dress? Who is the guy who jilted her?" 

On and off, over the year, I've been trying to understand Sondheim's methods of composition because I like his music. Below are a few things I have gathered from other's analysis and his own comments.

Sondheim starts only after he completely understands the story he is going to tell. Everything serves the story. He may have a few phrase of text or just a few words in this early stage. 

Though he doesn't have a lot of text at this point, he begins the music by writing the accompaniment (harmony, rhythm, texture, etc.) to give himself the musical feel of the story and some story structure in musical form. Harmony is what seems to be most important to Sondheim. "Harmony gives music its life, its emotional color, even more than rhythm" he says. 

Then, Sondheim says, the melody falls out of the harmony and the more detailed lyrics come as the melody comes and visa versa. The melody/lyrics writing is in constant reiteration and the harmony and structure of the original accompaniment changes as required. For instance, if he wants to say a bit more in a phrase that doesn't fit his original accompaniment, he might add a bar of 7/4 and make harmonic and rhythmic changes to accommodate it. As with all his lyrics, Sondheim will write the rhythm of the words and phrases as they are naturally spoken (Cole Porter did that as well) and consider the many lyric/melody guidelines such as a higher pitch for stress vowels etc. 

Sondheim also says he usually writes lyrics and melody away from the piano so his finger's muscle memory doesn't start dictating his melodic choices. He also says he 'becomes' the character, as an actor does, when writing the lyrics.

At some point, early in this method, before melody and full text, Sondheim often creates what he calls a 'long line composition' (I think he got this from his his study with Milton Babbit) which is a rough map that associates harmonic and contrapuntal progression with some text or idea (below, "I read" "no illusions" "look at me"). The text may or may not be lyrics. In the final version "I read" becomes lyrics that explain what the character does not read for (to learn) and what she does read for (to escape).

I think a sub-forum on lyrics would be a good addition to VC. It's a deep and interesting subject which I know much less about than I would like.


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## sonicviz (Sep 27, 2020)

Tom Waits on Songwriting: Beautiful Melodies Telling You Terrible Things - The Lyric Writer's Workroom


Digging through NPR archives, I found a pair of interviews with one of my favorite songwriters, Tom Waits. The two tapes are spliced together; that’s why there’s only one link. Here are some of the helpful points that I plucked out of the audio: Cowriting a song helps you prevent an “Emperor’s...




lyricworkroom.com


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## Rodney Money (Sep 27, 2020)

For my latest commissions I’ve found the best and even most current relatable lyrics from the Bible or older poetry not under copyright.


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