# How should I manage a partnership for my album?



## DelMusic (Sep 30, 2011)

Hi everyone, 

This is my first post that I am putting on this forum and I am very excited to receive your expert opinions. Here goes the story: 

I composed some music last year and I found someone in the recording industry to record my music (I sing my songs, composition is by me, lyrics are by me, half of the arrangement is by me, playing the violin is by me, etc). He is very good at what he does and when he listened to my music he agreed to work with me as my partner. We have not talked about who gets how much share


Now, is there any way that I can sell these songs in a way that I can see how much every track is being sold? Let's say I have some songs that I dont' want to set a price for them and I want people to pay as much as they like, at the same time I want to set prices for some other of my songs. 

Is there any way that I can see how much revenue is coming from each of these songs? Also since I will be selling my parent's songs as well, I want to have control on all of these, at the same time I want my partner to see how much we are selling, so that he won't think that I am being dishonest. 

So, what should we do? Should the money go to his account and he would pay my share? Or can I have my own account and pay His share? and how can I manage selling multiple tracks? Or, should we have a mutual account?

What is the right way to do this business? I am quite confused! 

Thanks a lot for reading this


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## RiffWraith (Sep 30, 2011)

Hi there, welcome to the forum. I will address one point.

Not sure what country you live in, but let's use the U.S. as an example, because that's what I know.

_I don't know how this partnership is going work in terms of the payments we receive from selling our songs._

Technically, every single dime from sales goes to you. Why? Because of this:

"composition is by me, lyrics are by me,"

Arrangements do not factor in to copyright, and his name can not be on the copyright forms. Other countries may differ slightly.

You will have to work out a fee that you will pay him, that you both feel is fair. If you feel a 50/50 split is warranted, then go for it. Similiar to when an artist goes to a recording studio; the engineer gets a paid a fee, but does not get a cut of the sales.

Good luck!


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## robteehan (Sep 30, 2011)

Hello and welcome!

The two of you need to sit down and figure this out before you release anything. Your producer (that's essentially what he is) is not necessarily entitled to half of everything unless that's the agreement. Many times an artist will record the album and pay the producer a flat fee. Other times the producer will be paid with a percentage of the songwriting ownership. This should have been agreed upon before you started working. 

If you could agree to split record sales and digital downloads evenly, that's probably fair, but you should make every effort to hang on to your publishing rights because they are YOUR songs. A publishing right is like a deed of ownership of a song; there is a "writer's share" that always goes to the songwriter whenever a royalty is generated (through radio airplay, TV or film use, etc.). If you sign away any percentage of this, your songs belong partially to your producer essentially for the rest of time (70 years after you die!), and you'd need his permission to record them again. 

And what if you suddenly become famous, or at least a successful touring artist? Does he get half of your festival performance fees, T-shirt sales, etc. etc.? I should hope not. If he is to become your manager, and start trying to promote you and manage your career, then he's only generally going to get 15-20% of your gross income. This is why you need a written agreement, and one that very carefully defines how the income is divided, but also defines the scope of what income can be divided.

I don't have a lot of experience regards to how artist/producer deals are normally structured so someone else can hopefully chime in.

Regarding iTunes, if you sign up with CD Baby (http://www.cdbaby.com) they can put you on iTunes since they are big enough to have a business relationship with Apple. That's also a great way to sell your music - physical CDs and digital sales - online. 

Finally - there are plenty of books on the business of music at your local library. If you want to be a professional artist, I recommend starting to educate yourself about how the business works - as you can see it's complicated!


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## DelMusic (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks a lot for the advice dear Robteehan. It's funny that I am already in the field of business but since I am the only share holder of my own company (which is an e-commerce) I am used to act solo, but when it comes to partnership especially for music which deals with several tracks, I get confused! Thanks a lot again!


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## Mike Marino (Sep 30, 2011)

Hey there DelMusic and welcome. I like how Riff has put it. Basically it's more like a joint venture than a partnership. This is good because the only ships that don't sail are partnerships.


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## DelMusic (Sep 30, 2011)

Thank you as well, dear RiffWraith, for your short and direct response. I live in Canada and I asume the rules would be similar to the U.S.


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## Kralc (Sep 30, 2011)

You can sell your songs on iTunes here http://www.tunecore.com/ , every month it puts the profits into your paypal, tells you how many of which songs were bought and in what countries, costs 9.99 a year, I think.


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 30, 2011)

DelMusic @ Fri Sep 30 said:


> Now, is there any way that I can sell these songs in a way that I can see how much every track is being sold? Let's say I have some songs that I dont' want to set a price for them and I want people to pay as much as they like, at the same time I want to set prices for some other of my songs.
> 
> Is there any way that I can see how much revenue is coming from each of these songs? Also since I will be selling my parent's songs as well, I want to have control on all of these, at the same time I want my partner to see how much we are selling, so that he won't think that I am being dishonest.



You've got some good answers here, I agree with Rob about making it clear that you must maintain total ownership of the songs, for the reasons he mentioned.

As far as keeping track of the sales, that is very easy. If you are thinking of selling your songs online though distributers such as Itunes, CD Baby, Amazon etc they send you an invoice and also keep track themselves of the sales in your account. I know that's how CD Baby along with their affiliates operates. So you will know to the cent near how much you made from sales. You have some options were you want the money to go with CD Baby, like in your Paypal account or bank account. You'd have to check this with them for more info, but it's usually well organized. Good luck!


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## DelMusic (Sep 30, 2011)

Dear Guy Bacos, thank you for your comment. I was wondering if PayPal would also give a report of how many of which songs are sold if I integrate PayPal into my own website?


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## Guy Bacos (Sep 30, 2011)

DelMusic @ Fri Sep 30 said:


> Let's say I have some songs that I dont' want to set a price for them and I want people to pay as much as they like, at the same time I want to set prices for some other of my songs.



I believe many of the companies today are very easy with this. I'm sure you could set your private account on your website and work with donations as well, but for the companies, they need a specific price, as far as I know. I think this would be different if it was a major record deal with a major company, the policies would probably be more strict.


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## EthanStoller (Sep 30, 2011)

+1 on tunecore for getting your tracks onto iTunes and other digital outlets.

Also check into bandcamp.com, a super easy way to get your digital downloads out there and to keep track of how much you are making. (or how many free downloads, etc.).


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## nikolas (Sep 30, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sat Oct 01 said:


> Technically, every single dime from sales goes to you. Why? Because of this:
> 
> "composition is by me, lyrics are by me,"
> 
> Arrangements do not factor in to copyright, and his name can not be on the copyright forms. Other countries may differ slightly!


Wait a second here...

If he's played in the album and even in a more creative role than just following orders (with a score), isn't he entitled to something? I mean if I persuade a violonist to come in and record some of my own music, can I later on tell them to fuck off? Cause as far as I know it doesn't work this... ? So in either way DelMusic will need his permission (the other guys) to carry on with the tracks, no? 

But either way, DelMusic exactly because the music is yours and lyrics are yours, I think that you have a very strong case in doing things your way (without cutting the other party out though)...


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 1, 2011)

Of course he is entitled to share the profits. But of what? That is the important question.

If he helped to make the songs sound better with some arrangements and made the project possible with his implication in the production, engineer etc the project would not exist without him, but would also not exist without Delmusic. So it totally makes sense that there is an agreement, maybe 50/50 or whatever, for the specific content of these songs, meaning, THESE arrangements, THIS production, HIS engineer work etc. I would say that anytime there is money made from THIS production the money should be split. But in a case where the songs are used in another context, excluding HIS production work and arrangements, this is where Delmusic should have her independence with her songs, and if done with a different music arrangement and production, she re-gain total profits of her song, unless she makes new arrangements with other people. My 2 cents, but I would check this out with an entertainment lawyer and have an agreement on paper.


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## nikolas (Oct 1, 2011)

Guy,

Yup you are right. I'm talking about the specific performances and recordings and arrangements... Otherwise the other part hasn't made any considerable input (or any copyrighted anyways).


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## rJames (Oct 1, 2011)

It seems like you are the writer for 100% unless your partner has changed melody and/or lyric when you weren't looking. I think US law says that no matter how small a part someone plays in writing, writers split is always equal unless otherwise contracted.

He has done the recording so he will own the mechanical rights.

You both have something the other one needs. So, you have to negotiate in good faith. You may end up being writer 100% and he being publisher 100%. If you have to go to a third party to publish then his share will be reduced which doesn't seem fair.

I suppose there is a contractual way to separate mechanical from sync.

This should have been worked out before you started the project.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 1, 2011)

nikolas @ Sat Oct 01 said:


> Wait a second here...
> 
> If he's played in the album and even in a more creative role than just following orders (with a score), isn't he entitled to something?



Well, he is NOT entitled to any of the profit from the sales of the songs, so if that is what you are asking, then the answer is a flat out "no". The law is very clear on this. (As I said earlier, I am using the U.S. as an example; other countries may differ slightly.) Remember this comment from the op: "composition is by me, lyrics are by me," That means that his buddy - the engineer/studio musician/arranger - is not entitled to any of the profit from the sales of the songs. Why would you think he would be? Only the person who composed the song is entitled to the profits from the sales of the songs. The engineer/studio musician/arranger is not the compser.

Now, if you want to talk about what is ethically correct, that's different. Paying the the engineer/studio musician/arranger, or sharing some of the profits with him, is in fact the right thing to do. Taking all of the profits for yourself and not sharing, nor paying the person who you worked with is wrong, and is just plain greedy. But that doesn't mean that the other person is _entitled _to any of the sales, because he is not. Unless a deal was worked out ahead of time and a contract signed, saying that the engineer/studio musician/arranger would receive x-dollars. Then he is entitled to whatever the contract says. But I got the impression that there was no contract ahead of time.



nikolas @ Sat Oct 01 said:


> I mean if I persuade a violonist to come in and record some of my own music, can I later on tell them to f#@k off?



It depends. If you promises the musician to pay them and don't, then no you don't have the right to tell them to fart off. But the musician isn't entitled to anything above and beyond what you told them you would pay them. So, if your song sells, and they come back and ask you for more money, can you tell them to fart off? Of course you can. They are not entitled to any profits from the sales of the song because they didn't compose the song in whole or in part.

Cheers.


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## robteehan (Oct 1, 2011)

Nikolas I guess laws may differ from country to country, in Canada we have something called "neighbouring rights" which apply to producers and performers. They are collected and paid out by PROs, not deducted from the writer's share. So a composer would have no obligation to compensate the people who produced/played on his recordings if they generate royalties, because that money flows automatically - in a separate stream - provided the proper paperwork has been filed.

By the way this is an important distinction - the physical recording and the song itself are two separate pieces of intellectual property. This is what Guy is getting at. I don't know if the producer automatically owns part of the master recording. I don't think so, unless there's an agreement in place. That's why they are normally paid a fee. As an occasional session musician I've always understood my recording fees to be an upfront "buyout" of any creative rights or ownership I might claim to the song.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on all this, where's a music lawyer when you need them?


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## DelMusic (Oct 1, 2011)

Well, to be honest, at the beginning I talked to my album partner about how we should split. He asked me not to talk about it until we finish the album. Since I want to have a friendly business partnership with him, I said OK. 

I am fine with everything he is doing and he is a talented guy and I would like to have his creativity on my works, and I don't have a problem to split the profit with him, and I am not into playing games and such.

So, do you think it would be appropriate if the revenue of the sales come to my account and I would pay his share?


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## rJames (Oct 1, 2011)

A professor from a business law class I took a few millennia ago made a huge point one day about contracts. He said, "if you are doing business with a friend and want to keep that friend, write a contract." 

His point is that casual agreements are easily misconstrued. That's why people sue each other. 

Here are my personal thoughts about this as a composer.

Sometimes you need connections to get your music published. Sounds like you respect this guy. I assume he is a pro. Maybe you connected with him because he has done this before. If so, that's worth something. And worth him being in on making decisions.

He wants to be in on decisions. Just make sure that you are always in on decisions too.
As I said, if he made unilateral decisions to change the melody to, "make it better," then he is a writer of the song. And you shouldn't have been so trusting. Although, maybe he added some commercial viability to the song. 

You can always take your music and go home. So you have some power here.

But as a songwriter of the Star Spangled Banner, you can't take the Boston Pops recording of that and sell it as your own. Boston Pops owns the mechanical rights, you own the sync rights. (I hope I have that right)

Everywhere it gets played owes a sync fee and a mechanical fee due to the respective owners. That is in the license fee. I'm not sure about the split... I think it is negotiable.

But, anyway, before you go freakin' out, you should find out what your friend has in mind for a split...then you can freak out.

He has a controlling personality. It may be because he just has a controlling personality or because he knows what he is doing and has experience in these areas.

Do you know how to sell this album without his help? Maybe he's got a point.

But, they are your songs and you can just say he can't use them even after he has put a bunch of time into them. He won't be your friend anymore though... but that is the source of your power in the negotiation.


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## rJames (Oct 1, 2011)

DelMusic @ Sat Oct 01 said:


> So, do you think it would be appropriate if the revenue of the sales come to my account and I would pay his share? Because now he is making it sound like I am the one who needs him and without him I can't even sell my songs...



I doubt he's gonna let this happen. Question is; do you trust him?

Are we talking about .000000004 cents per download or actually selling/licensing music?

It would be nice for each of you to get an accounting in any case.

As far as I am concerned, I think there is a lot of trust necessary in the music business. I have to trust quite a few people to get paid. And yet, I get paid. Contracts won't help if someone wants to keep your money. Too many hoops to go through to find out you've been ripped off.


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 1, 2011)

DelMusic @ Sat Oct 01 said:


> So, do you think it would be appropriate if the revenue of the sales come to my account and I would pay his share? Because now he is making it sound like I am the one who needs him and without him I can't even sell my songs...



One important thing you want to keep in mind is that a project like this takes a long time to put together, right? How long have you been on it, maybe a few years? You are close to the end now, there in tension in the air... You are worried and he wants to give the impression he's making it happen for you. I could understand it could be frustrating for you with this attitude and I myself would have a very hard time dealing with this. But my advice would be to keep it simple and not do anything that may jeopardize the project. I don't think you have to worry about the revenues TOO much, unless you are with a major record label and have a team of promoters working for you. Chances are it will be modest sums of money. So if you start fighting over that the project may cease to exist at the end. On the other hand, if you tolerate some things about him, you will be well rewarded at the end because YOUR songs will be out there, and it is you that will get the deserved recognition, since you are the official composer of the songs and singer. No doubt for him it will be good as well. But the point here is, a project is better than no project.


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## DelMusic (Oct 1, 2011)

James, thank you for your response. Well, he is as new as I am. 

So, anyway, most part of the marketing and selling part is on me. I am the solo artist of these songs and I am the one communicating with the whole world to make them listen to my songs. 

Yes, he has added some introductory melodies to one of my songs. I asked him to. We worked on the instrumentations together, and we were both supporting each other's opinions.

He is a good guy and I want everything to go smoothly and friendly with him. And "getting freaked out" is not really my style


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## DelMusic (Oct 1, 2011)

Guy, you are completely right. But to be honest with you, I am not worried or frustrated at all. I am actually asking these questions so that I have a better understanding of the industry before I go ahead and talk to him about our rights in this partnership. He is really not a kind of guy who would want to take advantage, but at the end every individual has a sense of controlling things. 

I basically just want to prepare myself before me and him start talking about the business aspects of this project. It's always good to have some knowledge before you go ahead and do something, right?

Thanks so much for your constructive response though


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## DelMusic (Oct 1, 2011)

James, I don't trust anyone! There is always a point when people are best friends and trust each other completely, but it's enough for a little thing to happen and change everything, that's when that best friend will become your #1 enemy! But I understand your point. And I should say that I can trust him at the point where we are now.


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## SergeD (Oct 1, 2011)

First of all, have you sealed (protected) your songs in some way before let it heard by any potential partner?

The guy is not stupid, anything going on the web is an argument in his favor if things are turning bad.


CdBaby is the place to go. You don't need a "record label", you need the "specific number" which is probably the bar code used in music stores and online stores. It's about 20$ at CdBaby. Otherwise a bar code is very expensive. CdBaby will spread you music on all online stores. 

The con is they will take about 9% of .70 cents for every song sold (usually 1.00$, 30% to iTunes). 
The big pro (imo) is that you will have only one place to cash you money (will all the statistics available for your friend) and plenty of time for marketing, which is the hardest part. 

If the guy shares payments with you, as a businessman he takes some risks and deserves to get profits as well as you do.

But always protect yourself before making any move.


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## DelMusic (Oct 1, 2011)

SergeD, thank you for your message. I was actually just trying to sign up with SOCAN. Would that be enough to protect my songs?


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## nikolas (Oct 1, 2011)

RiffWraith @ Sat Oct 01 said:


> nikolas @ Sat Oct 01 said:
> 
> 
> > Wait a second here...
> ...


I'm still VERY uncertain that this is true and here's why:

Recently (in 2003 :D), I performed a Kachaturian suite in public. I got the video and made it public in youtube. Does this mean that the copyright owners can just grab my video and do as they please with it?

Which brings me to a very recent concern to me: If all of this stand why the hell do we (the composers) even need release forms anyways? We can just record whatever we want and just use it, right?

robteehan: We also have neighbooring rights here in Greece (and europe), but my question remains: If there is no profit to be made (say for example to use a recording promotionally), can we just go ahead and use it? My music, my arrangement, my scores, my parts, recording by LSO! Why not spread the recording around, if they can't stop me?

I'm VERY honestly concerned about this for professional reasons (apart from checking with my lawyer which I've already done but I'm still a little fuzzy).


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## SergeD (Oct 1, 2011)

I've done it some years ago (Ask people at the post center) but it's what I'm gonna do this winter before making any serious contact with people. 

Put your songs on a tape (Do not trust an Usb key since it's an electronic device), lyrics on paper, and mail it as a registered document. Once received, open it... (no no it's a joke), do not open it and put it in a safe place. That's your material proof if anything goes wrong.


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## robteehan (Oct 2, 2011)

Nikolas, there must be some restriction, I think you're right.
I think there is a copyright associated to the performance that the group and/or engineer owns part of? Thus if you hired session players, they sign waivers to waive their rights- or the waiver is assumed, as in most sessions I've played - but the LSO would not, so you would have to ask their permission to do anything with the recording...I think?

I know that the AFM musicians' union (in Canada) has made a provision that up to 4 minutes of an archival recording can be put on youtube for promotional purposes without any further payment - which suggest that there's other payments involved for other uses. To be honest I don't know about this, and I would like to find out.


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## DelMusic (Oct 3, 2011)

Does anyone know where and how I should copyright my lyrics?


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## rJames (Oct 3, 2011)

In the U.S. it is here http://www.copyright.gov/


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## DelMusic (Oct 3, 2011)

Thank you James. I live in Canada, do you happen to know how it works up here? thanks again


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## rJames (Oct 3, 2011)

You could probably find out here http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=copyright+in+canada&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


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## DelMusic (Oct 3, 2011)

Thank you!


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