# New Sibelius Version with subscription model



## lucor

http://www.sibeliusblog.com/news/next-sibelius-release/

Changes to the actual functionality don't seem that huge for now, but looks like they are going the Surface 3 route just like StaffPad and introduce a new subscription model.
Not too excited for now, but at least it seems Sibelius isn't completely dead and is still being worked on.


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## Daryl

I thought that the video was hilarious not least for the fact that it contained pretty much no news of improved functionality. Sibelius is dead. Move along. Nothing to see here.

D


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## Stephen Rees

Hmmmm.

I was thinking about getting Sibelius but this is enough to put me off I think.

I'm just demoing Notion 5 at the moment. I've got to page 84 of the 281 page manual and I still haven't found out how to enter notes. I know how the mixer works in detail, but haven't got to entering notes. So I'm a bit skeptical of that too at the moment  The next chapter is 'Editing Tools' so I have high hopes that I might actually create some notes soon (assuming it doesn't just cover how to edit notes that have already been entered (which they haven't told me how to do yet….)).


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## lucor

Daryl @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> I thought that the video was hilarious not least for the fact that it contained pretty much no news of improved functionality. Sibelius is dead. Move along. Nothing to see here.
> 
> D



It's pretty underwhelming, yeah. I haven't lost hope completely, but I'm mainly crossing my fingers for the new Steinberg notation software.


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## Daryl

Stephen Rees @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> Hmmmm.
> 
> I was thinking about getting Sibelius but this is enough to put me off I think.


Don't waste your money, unless you absolutely need it. Wait for the Steinberg app.

D


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## Daryl

lucor @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Apr 13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that the video was hilarious not least for the fact that it contained pretty much no news of improved functionality. Sibelius is dead. Move along. Nothing to see here.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty underwhelming, yeah. I haven't lost hope completely, but I'm mainly crossing my fingers for the new Steinberg notation software.
Click to expand...

I think that you'll just have to face the fact that Sibelius is pretty much dead. I've been using it for over 20 years, and it will be a wrench to use the Steinberg app when it comes out, but I have such high hopes for it that I'm sure I will become a fan very quickly.

D


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## Maximvs

Daryl @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> I thought that the video was hilarious not least for the fact that it contained pretty much no news of improved functionality. Sibelius is dead. Move along. Nothing to see here.
> 
> D



I much agree...!


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## dcoscina

Stephen Rees @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> Hmmmm.
> 
> I'm just demoing Notion 5 at the moment. I've got to page 84 of the 281 page manual and I still haven't found out how to enter notes. I know how the mixer works in detail, but haven't got to entering notes. So I'm a bit skeptical of that too at the moment  The next chapter is 'Editing Tools' so I have high hopes that I might actually create some notes soon (assuming it doesn't just cover how to edit notes that have already been entered (which they haven't told me how to do yet….)).



Stephen, you can enter notes using the keyboard on the screen by mousing over the note and using the letters Q=quarter, W=whole, S=sixteenth, etc. If you want to use the keyboard, you will have to press Ctrl-E (on Windows) or Apple Key-E on Mac. You will see the staff for the part highlighted in yellow. That means it is ready to accept notes. If you just want to Mouse notes in, just skip the Ctrl-E step and just press the letter corresponding to the note duration and hover your mouse pointer over the appropriate pitch on the staff. 

Hope this helps. Notion isn't perfect but it's a very good program for composing on. IMO.


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## Stephen Rees

@dcoscina: Thanks! I'm liking Notion so far. It made me chuckle a bit that the manual choses to explain to me how to set routing fx sends in the mixer before telling me how to enter a crotchet  I'm on 'Chapter 8: Enter Notes and Rests' so things are starting to get more interesting…..

I got Sibelius years ago (version 3 I think?) and I never really made friends with it. I never bothered updating it. Notion seems more intuitive to me so far which is nice 

Nice of Presonus to give such a comprehensive demo of Notion 5. You basically download the full version (including all the bundled sounds) and use it in 'Demo' mode - you can't save anything but you can evaluate what it can do in detail. Great!


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## dcoscina

Notion is what I have been using on my iPad Air for quite some time. I even have it on my Mini ver 2 when I'm on business trips. While it's not perfect, it's a terrific compositional tool. If my day job moves towards Surface Pro however, I will totally buy Staffpad. The playback is good but not any better than Notion imo. I don't need ultrarealistic sounds when I'm composing anyhow- more of just a timbral and pitch check. I either get real musicians to play the finished product or port over to DP8 and realize with better samples. Either way, Notion is a great way to compose. 

Sorry for derailing this thread. I use Sibelius 7 once in a while and really only because of Note Performer which I think is terrific.


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## Stephen Rees

dcoscina @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> Sorry for derailing this thread.



I think it may have been my fault  Yes, back to Sibelius…..


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## DaddyO

Stephen Rees @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> Hmmmm.
> 
> I was thinking about getting Sibelius but this is enough to put me off I think.
> 
> I'm just demoing Notion 5 at the moment. I've got to page 84 of the 281 page manual and I still haven't found out how to enter notes. I know how the mixer works in detail, but haven't got to entering notes. So I'm a bit skeptical of that too at the moment  The next chapter is 'Editing Tools' so I have high hopes that I might actually create some notes soon (assuming it doesn't just cover how to edit notes that have already been entered (which they haven't told me how to do yet….)).



Notion 5 is fine if you're not counting on engraving-quality score printouts. It works fine for composition and rudimentary (i.e., non-DAW) playback.


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## jamwerks

Daryl @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> Don't waste your money, unless you absolutely need it. Wait for the Steinberg app.


My thoughts exactly. Very little novelties mentioned in that video, which means that they just aren't there. The touch-screen probably did take a lot of resources though to get implemented. And might prove time saving.

Very much looking forward to the new Steinberg app and wondering if the hand writing feature will make it in the 1.0 !? Finale is so far behind now, might be living it's last few years...


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## Stephen Rees

The thing that puts me off a bit about waiting for the Steinberg app is that they have a habit of only supporting the very latest versions of Mac OSX these days.

So by the time it comes out (whenever that may be?) it'll probably only be supported on 10.10 at least. I'm on 10.8 (and was dragged kicking and screaming to there from 10.6.8 ).

I'm still using Cubase 6 here, Luddite that I am


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## cmillar

I know heavy Sibelius-musicians who have stayed at version 6.2

It's very solid, does virtually anything one could want for composing, arranging, orchestrating, etc. If you're expecting a notation program to fully replace your DAW, then you'll never be satisfied with any notation software. 

But if you just need to write your music, copy out the parts, get a conductor score together, etc. then Sibelius or Finale are both fantastic, and have been for many old versions as well. 

If you can get hold of an older version of Sibelius, do it. I haven't kept up with the upgrading policies of Avid. Is one stuck with only getting the latest version?

Anyways, as Craig Anderton once said: ".... sometimes trailing-edge technology is better than the latest thing." (or something like that)


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## FriFlo

Daryl @ Mon Apr 13 said:


> lucor @ Mon Apr 13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daryl @ Mon Apr 13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that the video was hilarious not least for the fact that it contained pretty much no news of improved functionality. Sibelius is dead. Move along. Nothing to see here.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty underwhelming, yeah. I haven't lost hope completely, but I'm mainly crossing my fingers for the new Steinberg notation software.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think that you'll just have to face the fact that Sibelius is pretty much dead. I've been using it for over 20 years, and it will be a wrench to use the Steinberg app when it comes out, but I have such high hopes for it that I'm sure I will become a fan very quickly.
> 
> D
Click to expand...


Me, too! I actually find the option to write into the score with a pen on surface quite useful, if this will work with a touchscreen monitor! Something I have been waiting for ...
But screw you, Avid! I'll never join that subscription model of yours! I dearly hope, they will sink the ship with their pricing policies and be forced to listen to the customers for the first time. Well, maybe some people will buy into that!? I sure hope, they will not ...


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## Reegs

Yeah, the feature set seems greatly unchanged. They mentioned "unrivaled compositional tools" a few times but never exactly elaborated on what those were....

I hadn't been to the Avid website in some time so I poked around a bit. Despite their flashy adverts and cheerful copywriting, everything seems rather unwelcoming and off-putting. And hard to find out what it was they were selling. Way too much fluff and "innovative dynamic solutions." The amount of branding you need to wade through is nauseating. Also, I'm not sure if it's a recent addition, but the way they advertise that you can pay for tech support (on an annual or per screw-up basis) from the company that sold you the software that you're having trouble with (or rather, their "Global Services" division) leaves a bad taste. I haven't used Pro Tools in about five years and it doesn't look like I'll be going back.


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## Stephen Rees

DaddyO @ Sat Apr 18 said:


> Notion 5 is fine if you're not counting on engraving-quality score printouts. It works fine for composition and rudimentary (i.e., non-DAW) playback.



I'm enjoying Notion so far. I'll mainly be using it as a composition tool and for printing out parts for grumpy musicians (i.e. me). I'm quite slow at using it at the moment, but still faster than I would be if I wrote it out by hand, and Notion has the added advantage that I don't have to read my own handwriting.

If you have a qualifying product already (Sibelius, Finale etc.) you can get Notion 5 at a cross grade price of $69 which is practically giving it away.

https://shop.presonus.com/products/notion-prods/notion-upgradescrossgrade/Notion-5-Crossgrade (https://shop.presonus.com/products/noti ... Crossgrade)


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## kdm

Avid is desperately trying to grab monthly income without having to pay for development up front. This should kill off Sibelius quite nicely. Avid might not be far behind it themselves.

Sibelius 6.x works just fine, and along with StaffPad, I can wait until the Steinberg notation app arrives. I'm sure it will be a significant improvement over Sibelius in core functionality, even if it lacks the advanced features for a few versions.


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## windshore

Agree with the sentiments here. Sib 7 is quite good, 7.5 not much change. If you have 6.x you're fine unless you see features in 7. 
Subscription - given their recent track record... You'd kinda need to be desperate.


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## almound

*Try using Sibelius as a front-end for your DAW instead*

I also had many of the reservations about Sibelius expressed in this thread. I tried Notion 4 (and will upgrade to Notion 5, if only to support the platform), but for orchestral composition I found that only Sibelius had the look and feel of real scores. So I decided to do something about Sibelius playback. 

My Youtube channel features free tutorials that show how to use Sibelius as a front-end for any sequencer (I happen to use Studio One 2), as well as simple tips on how to get more realistic playback of string samples despite using a notation program. (The technique should work for just about any notation program, by the way, including Finale.) Now I can use all the power of a sequencer (with any of its plug-ins) by writing a Sibelius score, and do this without compromising playback of string samples. 

It is as though I have multiple MIDI controllers being played simultaneously inputting MIDI into Studio One, using my favorite reverb plug-in (VerbSession) and with stereo placement/ separation (via Virtual Sound Studio 2.0).

Until something better comes along, combining Sibelius and a sequencer is about the best solution I've come across. 

Look for Al Johnston on Youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XeSTON5_iA

BTW, the importance of the Sibelius 7.5.1 update is the fix for the percussion staff of 7.5, which doesn't (properly) play back percussion samples via an external sample player. (It does play back Sibelius SoundFonts, though.)


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## Olivia

What particularly disturbs me about this subscription scam,
is that you will be cashed permanently without Sibelius being forced to bring improvements or innovations. When upgrading at least you know what you pay for!

I have switched to capella now. They offer discount for Sibelius users:
http://www.capella.de/us/index.cfm/order/crossgrade

Up to now it fully suits my needs...


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## rgarber

Stephen Rees said:


> I'm enjoying Notion so far. I'll mainly be using it as a composition tool and for printing out parts for grumpy musicians (i.e. me). I'm quite slow at using it at the moment, but still faster than I would be if I wrote it out by hand, and Notion has the added advantage that I don't have to read my own handwriting.
> 
> If you have a qualifying product already (Sibelius, Finale etc.) you can get Notion 5 at a cross grade price of $69 which is practically giving it away.
> 
> https://shop.presonus.com/products/notion-prods/notion-upgradescrossgrade/Notion-5-Crossgrade (https://shop.presonus.com/products/noti ... Crossgrade)



I bought Notion 4 at least a year ago and I really like it a lot for its ease of entering notes. I have both Finale and Sibelius but Notion is so easy to use I don't even install Finale or Sibelius any more. With Notion 5, I purchased several months back, I like Notion even better though I agree with the poster who commented it's not so great when it comes to printing music. Mostly the problem is formatting (like the title, author and other text - not notes or staffs) and I hope they address these issues before too long as my music needs to be printed. I sell play-alongs. But you can get a great overview and some tips from Groove3's Notion tutorial video on Notion 5 that are pretty helpful (groove3.com). Support for Notion from Presonus is pretty good too. I've had to ask them a few questions and they response time is decent.

https://www.groove3.com/presonus-training-video-tutorials/Notion-Explained

Rich


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## Michael Antrum

I like Notion, and I hope it will grow and be developed further by Presonus. I have a lot of goodwill towards Presonus - I made a mistake when buying software upgrades from one of their dealers - and they put it right at no charge - and it could have cost me a fair bit if they hadn't come up trumps for me. Companies that look after their companies deserve too succeed. 

I really dislike the software subscription model, and Avid seem determined to sabotage their own business so I think we should just let them get on with it. I get the impression that Avid are similarly doing their best to discourage people from using Pro Tools and the video division is going the same way. 

When i was looking at DAW's I downloaded their free version of Pro Tools to ahem a look and it wouldn't install properly and was a complete mess to use. When I posted questions on Gearslutz, even Pro Tools based people were advising me to look elsewhere.

Just what are AVID playing at ?


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## Maximvs

mikeybabes said:


> I like Notion, and I hope it will grow and be developed further by Presonus. I have a lot of goodwill towards Presonus - I made a mistake when buying software upgrades from one of their dealers - and they put it right at no charge - and it could have cost me a fair bit if they hadn't come up trumps for me. Companies that look after their companies deserve too succeed.
> 
> I really dislike the software subscription model, and Avid seem determined to sabotage their own business so I think we should just let them get on with it. I get the impression that Avid are similarly doing their best to discourage people from using Pro Tools and the video division is going the same way.
> 
> When i was looking at DAW's I downloaded their free version of Pro Tools to ahem a look and it wouldn't install properly and was a complete mess to use. When I posted questions on Gearslutz, even Pro Tools based people were advising me to look elsewhere.
> 
> Just what are AVID playing at ?



Forget about Avid and move on... I did after using Sibelius for 20 odd years. The subscription model is something I do not endorse and any company that uses it is not getting any business from me. Amen


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## Saxer

Massimo said:


> The subscription model is something I do not endorse and any company that uses it is not getting any business from me.


+1


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## Pietro

I guess you guys are one of those people who don't have access to water, electricity, plumbing, phone, tv, internet and many other things that use the subscription model?

I understand your concern about subsription in software, however, if you wanted to stay up to date with the .5 and x.0 updates, you'd pay pretty much the same. And if you upgrade from pre-8 version of Sibelius, you can still use the version you've last updated to, after you unsubscribe. It's perpetual.

And we've in fact been getting incremental updates more often than before. Some of them very useful features, like more flexible staff sizes, for those situations that call to make something 5% smaller in one system, while everything else stays the same.

The most annoying problem with Sibelius is that it will incrementally get slower and slower. Cause that's how it's built. Try exploding parts on a 60 minutes score.

- Piotr


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## CathodeRay

kdm said:


> Avid is desperately trying to grab monthly income without having to pay for development up front. This should kill off Sibelius quite nicely. Avid might not be far behind it themselves.
> 
> Sibelius 6.x works just fine, and along with StaffPad, I can wait until the Steinberg notation app arrives. I'm sure it will be a significant improvement over Sibelius in core functionality, even if it lacks the advanced features for a few versions.



I think you're exactly right. Now the users have become its venture capitalists.


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## CathodeRay

Does Sibelius 7.1 work on anything higher than Mac OS 10.8. Would like to hear personal experiences. I am hoping that it works on the latest Sierra, because that's all you can get from the Mac store now.

Thanks


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## GdT

Massimo said:


> The subscription model is something I do not endorse and any company that uses it is not getting any business from me. Amen


+1


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## GdT

CathodeRay said:


> Does Sibelius 7.1 work on anything higher than Mac OS 10.8


I am running Sibelius 7.1 in OS X 10.11.

Oh someone sent me a Sibelius file from a newer version of Sibelius and I can't open it in Sibelius 7 - doh! (Another reason for moving off Sibelius.)
Anyone know how I can get the file converted for Sibelius 7 format without buying a ludicrously expensive upgrade for no benefit?


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## jononotbono

I need to buy Sibelius soon and was thinking that the subscription might be an affordable way of using it when I need it. There's lots of negative feedback about it though. How come? I thought Sibelius was the standard of Notation software that all Pros use?


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## Phillip

I do not like the subscription model. "Requiem for Avid"? Certainly.


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## jononotbono

I don't have a problem with Avid as Ihave never owned their stuff. I need to also buy Pro Tools soon. Is there a problem with their software (in this case Sibelius) or is it just subscriptions people have a problem with?


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## d.healey

You don't need Sibelius (assuming you're not already a Sibelius user), unless you're a pro engraver - use MuseScore. You probably don't need pro-tools either unless you're running a recording studio, and even then it's only because it's the crappy "industry standard" that you'll need it.


> Anyone know how I can get the file converted for Sibelius 7 format without buying a ludicrously expensive upgrade for no benefit?


http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/how_to/Sibelius-7-5-File-Format


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## jononotbono

Well without notation software how am I supposed to give live players sheet music? And in regards to Pro Tools, 99% of Music Editors use it and score preparation is done with it so they both sound essential to me. I also need them if I do an MFA in orchestration next year for the above reasons.

In regards to Sibelius, I've also been told that it's incredibly useful for working out Harmony as you can hear back what things sound like for those of us that aren't John Williams and can hear this stuff in their heads. Playing the Piano, unless you have the hands of Guiliver, never leads to brilliant voicing for Strings so I can imagine Sibelius helping with this. I'm a theory beginner so I could just be wrong though.


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## SillyMidOn

d.healey said:


> You don't need Sibelius (assuming you're not already a Sibelius user), unless you're a pro engraver - use MuseScore. You probably don't need pro-tools either unless you're running a recording studio, and even then it's only because it's the crappy "industry standard" that you'll need it.


I have to second that entirely. Some DAW's also have notation functions, and you can certainly use these as well if you ever need to send "parts" to anyone. If you haven't been a Sibelius user, then one of the reasons people got frustrated with them since they were bought by Avid, is that they sacked the team that were creating it at the time and moved coding to a former Eastern block country to save money (said former team was then mostly employed by Cubase to create Dorico), they changed the look of Sibelius so that if you have been suing it since year dot, like myself, nothing was were it used to be which was really frustrating, an irritating subscription model was introduced but with all of that the quality of the product has not improved at all.
As mentioned, Muse Score will do the trick for you as well. https://musescore.org

@jononotbono If you are starting out, please don't spend loads of money on things that you have heard may be considered "industry standard" that you think you may need to give the impression you are "bona fide" - you simply won't need them. No-one can hear if you wrote your piece of music on Logic, or Cubase, or Protools or any other DAW for that matter.


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## SillyMidOn

jononotbono said:


> Well without notation software how am I supposed to give live players sheet music?


Muse Score or use your DAW.



jononotbono said:


> And in regards to Pro Tools, 99% of Music Editors use it and score preparation is done with it so they both sound essential to me.


Even if 99% of music editors used it, why would you need it?



jononotbono said:


> In regards to Sibelius, I've also been told that it's incredibly useful for working out Harmony as you can hear back what things sound like for those of us that aren't John Williams and can hear this stuff in their heads. Playing the Piano, unless you have the hands of Guiliver, never leads to brilliant voicing for Strings so I can imagine Sibelius helping with this. I'm a theory beginner so I could just be wrong though.


And you can't work out the harmony in your DAW, or in your head, or on a keyboard, or on a piece of manuscript paper? I cant help but get the impression that you are looking for reasons to buy musical crutches.

Plus, in Sibelius the sound playback is still pretty awful and transferring midi files back and forth from DAW to Sibelius is a nasty experience.


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## jononotbono

SillyMidOn said:


> I have to second that entirely. Some DAW's also have notation functions, and you can certainly use these as well if you ever need to send "parts" to anyone. If you haven't been a Sibelius user, then one of the reasons people got frustrated with them since they were bought by Avid, is that they sacked the team that were creating it at the time and moved coding to a former Eastern block country to save money (said former team was then mostly employed by Cubase to create Dorico), they changed the look of Sibelius so that if you have been suing it since year dot, like myself, nothing was were it used to be which was really frustrating, an irritating subscription model was introduced but with all of that the quality of the product has not improved at all.
> As mentioned, Muse Score will do the trick for you as well. https://musescore.org
> 
> @jononotbono If you are starting out, please don't spend loads of money on things that you have heard may be considered "industry standard" that you think you may need to give the impression you are "bona fide" - you simply won't need them. No-one can hear if you wrote your piece of music on Logic, or Cubase, or Protools or any other DAW for that matter.



Using Pro Tools and Sibelius is a requirement for doing an MFA in Orchestration with ThinkSpace because in the real world Score Preparation involves using Sibelius and Pro Tools. None of this has got to do with giving "the impression" of being "bona tide". Where have you jumped to that conclusion from? And what has preparing a scoring session got to do with people knowing whether someone has or has not used a specific DAW to write a piece of music in? Score prep is not the same as using a DAW to write music with. To get live players to play your music you need to give them sheet music. Hence Sibelius. Or Finale but as the requirements of a course I hope to study says Sibelius, I will go with Sibelius. To prep a session to record an Orchestra, every professional uses Pro Tools. This is how it's done. 

Anyway, you're right. Subscriptions suck. I'll just buy them and it's one last thing to worry about. Thanks.


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## jononotbono

SillyMidOn said:


> Muse Score or use your DAW.



I'll use Sibelius. It's better than Cubase's score editor. And I have to use it for a course I hope to study in Orchestration. I don't think I can't repeat this ever again.

Even if 99% of music editors used it, why would you need it?

Because I want to do Professional Music Editing amongst composing and I want to use the tools that Professionals use for this task. It's pretty self explanatory. music Editing is also part of my course and requires Pro Tools.

"And you can't work out the harmony in your DAW, or in your head, or on a keyboard, or on a piece of manuscript paper? I cant help but get the impression that you are looking for reasons to buy musical crutches.

Plus, in Sibelius the sound playback is still pretty awful and transferring midi files back and forth from DAW to Sibelius is a nasty experience."

You get the impression that I'm looking for reasons to buy Musical crutches? You couldn't be anymore wrong if you tried.

Thanks for your input though. I'm glad things work for you.


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## SillyMidOn

jononotbono said:


> Using Pro Tools and Sibelius is a requirement for doing an MFA in Orchestration with ThinkSpace because in the real world Score Preparation involves using Sibelius and Pro Tools.


I have to be honest, I think it's terrible they make you fork out that much money on two pieces of software just to do a masters. I can't help but think they have a deal with Avid.



jononotbono said:


> None of this has got to do with giving "the impression" of being "bona tide". Where have you jumped to that conclusion from?


Well I apologise if I offended you, but you seemed damn keen to part with money for what I and @d.healey see as non-existent reasons.



jononotbono said:


> And what has preparing a scoring session got to do with people knowing whether someone has or has not used a specific DAW to write a piece of music in?


I was pointing out that no-one can hear what DAW you have recorded your music in! Or which engraving software the printed out piece of music is from.



jononotbono said:


> Score prep is not the same as using a DAW to write music with. To get live players to play your music you need to give them sheet music. Hence Sibelius. Or Finale


Or Musc Score, or your flipping DAW. Logic can produce sheet music!



jononotbono said:


> To prep a session to record an Orchestra, every professional uses Pro Tools. This is how it's done.


I guess this is Think Space selling you this lie? It is simply not true.

Look, I'm just trying to help.


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## jononotbono

Cool thanks for your help. Who are you? I actually ask because I have no idea and would like to know what you do for a living? Are you a professional Composer? A professional Orchestrator? Do you prepare scores and do you record live Orchestras?

Just curious because lots of people give "advice" and I would like to know where this advice is coming from. Thanks. And you haven't offended me. Christ, if something like this offends someone, the music business is not for them.



SillyMidOn said:


> I have to be honest, I think it's terrible they make you fork out that much money on two pieces of software just to do a masters. I can't help but think they have a deal with Avid.
> 
> 
> Well I apologise if I offended you, but you seemed damn keen to part with money for what I and @d.healey see as non-existent reasons.
> 
> 
> I was pointing out that no-one can hear what DAW you have recorded your music in! Or which engraving software the printed out piece of music is from.
> 
> 
> Or Musc Score, or your flipping DAW. Logic can produce sheet music!
> 
> 
> I guess this is Think Space selling you this lie? It is simply not true.
> 
> Look, I'm just trying to help.


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## Michael Antrum

I think what they are trying to say to you is that both Sibelius and Pro Tools are living off their past glories, and that unless you have a good reason to use them, there are better choices.

Being an industry standard is a good enough reason for some people though, but not all. 

Even if you buy the software there is still subscription model.

Please correct me if I am wrong - but as I understand it, when you buy Pro tools or Sibelius you get a 12 month upgrade agreement, which means you get all the upgrades for the next 12 months. After that period, if you don't pay for another upgrade agreement, then you are stuck at the version and cannot upgrade it in the future.

So if you let your subscription lapse, you have to buy the whole shebang again at full price.

Personally, Notion 6 does everything I need, it's around £ 115 (inc VAT) and you can activate on 5 devices. There is also an iPad app which is pretty slick with Apple Pencil support for hand written notation recognition.

It's not as fully fledged as Sibelius and Finale, but it does everything I need and more......


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## wcreed51

If your course requirement is that you submit your work in Sibelius, then that's what you buy. End of story.

The subscription model is no big deal. For most software you pay $100 every year for the annual upgrade, so no big difference.


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## SillyMidOn

jononotbono said:


> Cool thanks for your help. Who are you? I actually ask because I have no idea and would like to know what you do for a living? Are you a professional Composer? A professional Orchestrator? Do you prepare scores and do you record live Orchestras?
> 
> Just curious because lots of people give "advice" and I would like to know where this advice is coming from. Thanks. And you haven't offended me. Christ, if something like this offends someone, the music business is not for them.


Haha, yes, that is a very reasonable question, as people do give advice on things they don't actually know about. I am a professional composer, I orchestrate my own work and have orchestrated other people's work, I've recorded with live orchestra (though I do not conduct), I have also done sheet music engraving as well as transcription for publishers and have created more scores than I care to remember in Sibelius. I've also lectured this kinda shit at degree level, to use the vernacular .

I just also think the expectation that Think Space set up that you will be working with live orchestras is very far fetched. In my work it's mostly sample based, plus what is becoming more and more common, remote sessions with additional players.

I remember an acquaintance of mine doing one of those Berklee online courses, and the requirement was to buy EWQL Orchestra. There must have been some kick-back going on there. I just don't get this, in all may time in the industry and all the publishers I have ever worked for, no-one has ever demanded that I use a certain piece of software. The one exception was Music Sales as all their engraving is done with Sibelius. 

Ok, if you have to hand your work in in Sibelius format, fair enough, then there is no way round it.

Just one question, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here: by "score preparation" you mean taking the midi from your DAW and preparing it for notation to print out for parts?


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## jononotbono

SillyMidOn said:


> Haha, yes, that is a very reasonable question, as people do give advice on things they don't actually know about. I am a professional composer, I orchestrate my own work and have orchestrated other people's work, I've recorded with live orchestra (though I do not conduct), I have also done sheet music engraving as well as transcription for publishers and have created more scores than I care to remember in Sibelius. I've also lectured this kinda shit at degree level, to use the vernacular .
> 
> I just also think the expectation that Think Space set up that you will be working with live orchestras is very far fetched. In my work it's mostly sample based, plus what is becoming more and more common, remote sessions with additional players.
> 
> I remember an acquaintance of mine doing one of those Berklee online courses, and the requirement was to buy EWQL Orchestra. There must have been some kick-back going on there. I just don't get this, in all may time in the industry and all the publishers I have ever worked for, no-one has ever demanded that I use a certain piece of software. The one exception was Music Sales as all their engraving is done with Sibelius.
> 
> Ok, if you have to hand your work in in Sibelius format, fair enough, then there is no way round it.
> 
> Just one question, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here: by "score preparation" you mean taking the midi from your DAW and preparing it for notation to print out for parts?



Thanks for taking the time to reply to what could be deemed as extremely rude "Who are you?" Even I started chuckling as I read that out loud. At the end of the course the Prchestration students go to LA or Prague to get their music recorded by an Orchestra and get the option to also conduct (or try to I should say). It's to give the student the experience of at least once in their lifetimes to work with the real thing. At the end of the day, I need Sibelius for the course and being a Theory student I can't see any harm in buying Sibelius even if not a TS student.

Yes by score prep I am talking about taking a mock up and preparing it for live players to read but in regards to Pro Tools I am also talking about session preparation. I've never heard of a Pro studio, that records professional Orchestras, not using Pro Tools for this job. Anyway, now you've told me "who you are" haha it's nice to meet you.


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## agarner32

SillyMidOn said:


> I just also think the expectation that Think Space set up that you will be working with live orchestras is very far fetched. In my work it's mostly sample based, plus what is becoming more and more common, remote sessions with additional players.



Working with a live orchestra is not far-fetched at all - it's the final project for the MFA at ThinkSpace. And because you don't work with live orchestras nobody else should have that opportunity? That makes no sense at all. For many of the students it may be the only time they hear their music played by real musicians. How can that be a bad thing?



SillyMidOn said:


> I remember an acquaintance of mine doing one of those Berklee online courses, and the requirement was to buy EWQL Orchestra. There must have been some kick-back going on there. I just don't get this, in all may time in the industry and all the publishers I have ever worked for, no-one has ever demanded that I use a certain piece of software. The one exception was Music Sales as all their engraving is done with Sibelius.



Regarding schools having requirements, it's pretty common and helps enable the instructors to teach with consistency. I think it's reasonable for Berklee to require a specific sample library and especially for an entry level class - it's a teaching environment not the real world. Can you imagine the shit students would buy if they just said buy an orchestral library? There a dozens of really good orchestration books out there, but you'd never see a class where the professor said just get any orchestration book. When everybody is working with the same tools it really helps instruction.



SillyMidOn said:


> Ok, if you have to hand your work in in Sibelius format, fair enough, then there is no way round it.



Regarding ThinkSpace's notation requirement, Finale is acceptable and actually I don't think it matters which program you use because you have the option of submitting scores as PDFs. They generally just want to see the score and are not interested in how you produced it.



SillyMidOn said:


> Just one question, just to make sure we're talking about the same thing here: by "score preparation" you mean taking the midi from your DAW and preparing it for notation to print out for parts?



Regarding score preparation - they require you to do two things: 1. Compose original music and create an orchestral score. 2. Prepare an orchestral score from recordings, MIDI mockup and stems.

I guess we're revealing what we do so here goes. I'm a full-time college professor (theory/comp) pianist, and composer. I also decided to go back and get another graduate degree so I'm on the last 3rd of the MFA at ThinkSpace Education. To be honest, part of the reason for the extra degree was salary advancement, but I'm still learning a lot from TS.

Aaron


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## SillyMidOn

jononotbono said:


> Thanks for taking the time to reply to what could be deemed as extremely rude "Who are you?" Even I started chuckling as I read that out loud. At the end of the course the Prchestration students go to LA or Prague to get their music recorded by an Orchestra and get the option to also conduct (or try to I should say). It's to give the student the experience of at least once in their lifetimes to work with the real thing. At the end of the day, I need Sibelius for the course and being a Theory student I can't see any harm in buying Sibelius even if not a TS student.



Well that's great that they give you that opportunity.



jononotbono said:


> Yes by score prep I am talking about taking a mock up and preparing it for live players to read but in regards to Pro Tools I am also talking about session preparation. I've never heard of a Pro studio, that records professional Orchestras, not using Pro Tools for this job. Anyway, now you've told me "who you are" haha it's nice to meet you.



Nice to meet you, too, and best of luck in your career, I mean it.


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## SillyMidOn

agarner32 said:


> Working with a live orchestra is not far-fetched at all - it's the final project for the MFA at ThinkSpace. And because you don't work with live orchestras nobody else should have that opportunity? That makes no sense at all.


Dear Aaron

Can I please politely ask you to take a bit more care before replying to my post and read it properly. This is what drives me nuts about vi-control... anyway.

I DO WORK WITH LIVE ORCHESTRA. Got that? Ok, because I said that previously. Live choir, too


agarner32 said:


> For many of the students it may be the only time they hear their music played by real musicians. How can that be a bad thing?



Again, what I meant that it is far fetched to expect to go into the real world after graduating, become a full-time composer with the sort of salary that means you can support a family and start recording with live orchestra. The budgets aren't there, time-frames are often stupidly tight and samples have become so good that editors/producers etc think they are perfectly acceptable.

I think it is GREAT that Thinkspace allow students to record with live orchestra, really great, as indeed it may be the only time they have that option. And as you are a lecturer, you will also know that most of your students will, after graduation, not end up doing music (these are basic stats - they told me this at the end of my Masters, hilarious). There are simply too many music graduates.




agarner32 said:


> Regarding schools having requirements, it's pretty common and helps enable the instructors to teach with consistency. I think it's reasonable for Berklee to require a specific sample library and especially for an entry level class - it's a teaching environment not the real world. Can you imagine the shit students would buy if they just said buy an orchestral library?


Why would they hand in defecated mass if they use other sample libraries?



agarner32 said:


> There a dozens of really good orchestration books out there, but you'd never see a class where the professor said just get any orchestration book. When everybody is working with the same tools it really helps instruction.



Books are not sample libraries. And as mentioned before, I have lectured at degree level myself, so I'm aware of all of this. 



agarner32 said:


> Regarding ThinkSpace's notation requirement, Finale is acceptable and actually I don't think it matters which program you use because you have the option of submitting scores as PDFs. They generally just want to see the score and are not interested in how you produced it.



Well there you go, as I said no need for Sibelius.



agarner32 said:


> I guess we're revealing what we do so here goes. I'm a full-time college professor (theory/comp) pianist, and composer. I also decided to go back and get another graduate degree so I'm on the last 3rd of the MFA at ThinkSpace Education. To be honest, part of the reason for the extra degree was salary advancement, but I'm still learning a lot from TS.



I genuinely wish you the best of luck with the course and career advancement.


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## agarner32

SillyMidOn, 

I apologize if you got offended and if I missed something in your post.

I was responding to the far-fetched part and what TS's expectation is. It isn't possible for you to know what their expectation is without having read through the course curricula or participated in any of the classes. In fact, they don't give students the expectation that they will recording with live musicians. They let the students know exactly what you said. Again I apologize if I misread that part of your post. And I did read that you have worked with live orchestras, but it sounds like not that much - mostly sampled stuff. Anyway now worries.

And you are right on about working in the business after graduating. It's one of the reasons most of my students get teaching credentials. At least they'll have a reasonable chance at doing something with music. I jumped straight into teaching college after being a player for decades. I got my degrees late in life. Most music graduates end up doing something else.

The comment about orchestration books was just an analogy - perhaps a bad one.

Thanks for wishing me luck. I'm really pretty much set in my career at 59. I'm also too old to pursue a career in film scoring although I do get work on commercials and corporate videos.

I'll just end by saying it sounds like we're really on the same page in a lot of ways. The problem with these sorts of threads is people read things (me included) incorrectly or perceive some sort of vibe if you will. I think things would be much different if we (or anybody else) met for coffee and discussed this stuff. We'd probably find a lot of common ground.

Cheers,
Aaron


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## SillyMidOn

agarner32 said:


> SillyMidOn,
> 
> I apologize if you got offended and if I missed something in your post.
> 
> I was responding to the far-fetched part and what TS's expectation is. It isn't possible for you to know what their expectation is without having read through the course curricula or participated in any of the classes. In fact, they don't give students the expectation that they will recording with live musicians. They let the students know exactly what you said. Again I apologize if I misread that part of your post. And I did read that you have worked with live orchestras, but it sounds like not that much - mostly sampled stuff. Anyway now worries.
> 
> And you are right on about working in the business after graduating. It's one of the reasons most of my students get teaching credentials. At least they'll have a reasonable chance at doing something with music. I jumped straight into teaching college after being a player for decades. I got my degrees late in life. Most music graduates end up doing something else.
> 
> The comment about orchestration books was just an analogy - perhaps a bad one.
> 
> Thanks for wishing me luck. I'm really pretty much set in my career at 59. I'm also too old to pursue a career in film scoring although I do get work on commercials and corporate videos.
> 
> I'll just end by saying it sounds like we're really on the same page in a lot of ways. The problem with these sorts of threads is people read things (me included) incorrectly or perceive some sort of vibe if you will. I think things would be much different if we (or anybody else) met for coffee and discussed this stuff. We'd probably find a lot of common ground.
> 
> Cheers,
> Aaron


Hi Aaron

Thank you for your courteous and nice reply.

Indeed we are pretty much on the same page, so all is good and well 

Cheers!


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## synergy543

Jononotbono, despite what the silly pundits say, Sibelius can sound very good if you also plan to get NotePerformer. NP loads almost instantly and will dramatically improve your Sibelius experience. 
http://www.noteperformer.com/

Of course, I too hate what Avid did by neutering Sibelius, but it is what it is, and its the only notation app at the moment that NP supports.
Here is an example of NotePerformer done by JJay Berthume. He told me the sounds are entirely NP. Not bad at all considering he never had to load a single DAW instrument to get these results. The absolute best choice for sketching.


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## ed buller

Nah...Dorico beats it ...hands down

e


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## resound

jononotbono said:


> Using Pro Tools and Sibelius is a requirement for doing an MFA in Orchestration with ThinkSpace because in the real world Score Preparation involves using Sibelius and Pro Tools. None of this has got to do with giving "the impression" of being "bona tide". Where have you jumped to that conclusion from? And what has preparing a scoring session got to do with people knowing whether someone has or has not used a specific DAW to write a piece of music in? Score prep is not the same as using a DAW to write music with. To get live players to play your music you need to give them sheet music. Hence Sibelius. Or Finale but as the requirements of a course I hope to study says Sibelius, I will go with Sibelius. To prep a session to record an Orchestra, every professional uses Pro Tools. This is how it's done.
> 
> Anyway, you're right. Subscriptions suck. I'll just buy them and it's one last thing to worry about. Thanks.


Ignore all the haters. Sure the subscription model sucks, but no one is forcing you to pay the subscription. You can buy the software and have it for life. Plus as a student you get a nice discount. We still use Sibelius 6 for all our orchestration work and all the features that have been added in newer versions are just fluff to be honest.


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## resound

ed buller said:


> Nah...Dorico beats it ...hands down
> 
> e


Maybe some day, but not yet.


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## jononotbono

resound said:


> Ignore all the haters. Sure the subscription model sucks, but no one is forcing you to pay the subscription. You can buy the software and have it for life. Plus as a student you get a nice discount. We still use Sibelius 6 for all our orchestration work and all the features that have been added in newer versions are just fluff to be honest.



I'm just going to buy both of them and become a wizard at using them. Here endeth that "problem".


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## JJP

jononotbono said:


> real world Score Preparation involves using Sibelius and Pro Tools.



 Nobody I know does any actual score prep in Pro Tools. I think you may be mistaken in your terminology.

I use Pro Tools daily when I transcribe and make vocal arrangements for Disney films and TV shows. That's because I get the audio stems sent to me from the mix stage in Pro Tools. It's easier to just play them back in Pro Tools than to move the audio to another program.

My tool of choice for both copying and orchestrating is Finale. I rarely open Sibelius these days, and often just check things before porting them over to Finale. That's not to say that Sibelius isn't used by lots of professionals, but it's not a mandatory standard. I have colleagues who love and hate both programs.

When I write my own music, if I have to sequence something it's done in Logic. I orchestrate (as in create an orchestrated, notated score) in Finale. Pro Tools isn't even part of the process unless I'm setting up files for a session and they want that format. That's rare. I leave that to the editors. They're the pros in that area.

If you want to see the the world in which I work, you can look me up on IMDb.


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## jononotbono

JJP said:


> Nobody I know does any actual score prep in Pro Tools. I think you may be mistaken in your terminology.
> 
> I use Pro Tools daily when I transcribe and make vocal arrangements for Disney films and TV shows. That's because I get the audio stems sent to me from the mix stage in Pro Tools. It's easier to just play them back in Pro Tools than to move the audio to another program.
> 
> My tool of choice for both copying and orchestrating is Finale. I rarely open Sibelius these days, and often just check things before porting them over to Finale. That's not to say that Sibelius isn't used by lots of professionals, but it's not a mandatory standard. I have colleagues who love and hate both programs.
> 
> When I write my own music, if I have to sequence something it's done in Logic. I orchestrate (as in create an orchestrated, notated score) in Finale. Pro Tools isn't even part of the process unless I'm setting up files for a session and they want that format. That's rare. I leave that to the editors. They're the pros in that area.
> 
> If you want to see the the world in which I work, you can look me up on IMDb.



Thanks for taking the time to message. Impressive IMDb credits and I appreciate the link because I get extremely tired with online opinions and not knowing what people actually do!

I guess one thing that's being confused here (in this thread) is that I have to use Pro Tools and notation software for a course I am going to hopefully do next year in Orchestration. When I say Score Prep I actually meant Session Prep, for recording the Orchestra, my bad. Exhaustion and posting on internet Forums can (do) lead to mistakes. I thought Pro Tools was the Industry standard for this? I've never heard of anywhere recording a Professional Orchestra without Pro Tools. I'm going to learn how to use it because there's no harm in learning as much as possible. If someone asks me if I can use PT, I can then at least say "Yes". As for Sibelius, I'm going to choose that because of the course I want to do and that's what they use as do many professionals. Sorry for any confusion.


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## JJP

Pro Tools is the most common format for film recording sessions.

You mentioned earlier that you're a music theory beginner. I'll humbly point out that orchestration is usually something best tackled after one has firm foundation in music theory. I don't know of any accredited masters of fine arts program that will even accept a student unless they can demostrate a solid theory background and even then many students in good programs are assigned a remedial theory course.

I recently had a friend ask me for orchestration lessons. I assessed his skills and background and told him that I'd only agree to teach him theory. He agreed and was surprised to find what a difference just a few lessons started to make in his writing and creative process. You may want to consider that as you make your educational plans. It could be quite frustrating if you jump too far ahead of yourself.


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## jononotbono

JJP said:


> Pro Tools is the most common format for film recording sessions.
> 
> You mentioned earlier that you're a music theory beginner. I'll humbly point out that orchestration is usually something best tackled after one has firm foundation in music theory. I don't know of any accredited masters of fine arts program that will even accept a student unless they can demostrate a solid theory background and even then many students in good programs are assigned a remedial theory course.
> 
> I recently had a friend ask me for orchestration lessons. I assessed his skills and background and told him that I'd only agree to teach him theory. He agreed and was surprised to find what a difference just a few lessons started to make in his writing and creative process. You may want to consider that as you make your educational plans. It could be quite frustrating if you jump too far ahead of yourself.



Yeah thank you. I'm currently studying theory and hope that I will know enough to get accepted onto the Cinematic Orchestration course next year. If not, then I will apply the following year. I'm already noticing a difference in my writing from what I have learn't so far and look forward more to just transcribing a lot of music as Mike Verta keeps hammering home to everyone. Finding the time to learn so much and in every area I need to learn is actually the biggest challenge at the minute.


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## peter5992

jononotbono said:


> Yeah thank you. I'm currently studying theory and hope that I will know enough to get accepted onto the Cinematic Orchestration course next year. If not, then I will apply the following year. I'm already noticing a difference in my writing from what I have learn't so far and look forward more to just transcribing a lot of music as Mike Verta keeps hammering home to everyone. Finding the time to learn so much and in every area I need to learn is actually the biggest challenge at the minute.



Fwiw, I have used Sibelius for nearly 10 years and I have zero problems with it, in fact, I love it. As far as I know it's the easiest notation program to learn (much more so than Finale, though I can't confirm from personal experience). I also have Dorico and Notion. I find Notion to be unintuitive and never use it (though I did buy the upgrades). Dorico has great potential but right now it's not there yet (the playback engine is pretty crude, no chord symbols, no large time signature, no video). I have great confidence in the team, they are the best, but it takes time to build a notation program from the ground up.

I also have Pro Tools, and that works fine for me too (though I wouldn't use it for midi but for audio and rendering projects to be handed off to mixers etc.). 

I've worked as assistant orchestrator for Sundance Film Composer Lab (see blog below), at Skywalker Sound, trust me that unless you are pretty fluent in Sibelius and know what you are doing, there is no way you can crank out scores and part in the very limited amount of time available. In Hollywood Sibelius and Finale are pretty much the standard. We also used Sibelius to re-orchestrate Pee Wee's Big Holiday for the Cleveland Contemporary Youth Orchestra - a wonderful score by Mark Mothersbaugh (lovely movie too, check it out on Netflix). That's nearly 300 pages for just the conductor score, several thousands of pages for all the parts. We only had a few weeks to do it. I can't even imagine doing this by hand or with with the notation program of a sequencing program. Too slow and clunky. 

The subscription model is controversial - some people just hate it - but the upside is that you can "rent" the software for a very reasonable price per month - including student discount. When I bought it, I had to fork out $600. That's quite a bit of money if you are a student (students get a significant discount by the way). 

Same thing with Pro Tools - people love to hate Pro Tools and Avid and there are reasons for that but if you want to work with high end studios and collaborate with people then PT is still the standard. You can use other programs as well (personally I really like Reaper for midi and audio) but having some basic PT skills will get you a long way - also if e.g. you want to work as intern or assistant.

That's probably why your MFA program requires you to have Sibelius and PT, they want to prepare you as good as possible for the world out there. You don't need an MFA in orchestration to be working in the industry but if that's what you want to, good luck, and go ahead. And don't forget the student discount! That's only available once you are enrolled (have to submit proof of being in a program), so if you want to get your feet wet you may want to go for a subscription until you are in the program. 

http://www.avidblogs.com/sundance-film-composer-lab-at-skywalker-sound/


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## jononotbono

peter5992 said:


> Fwiw, I have used Sibelius for nearly 10 years and I have zero problems with it, in fact, I love it. As far as I know it's the easiest notation program to learn (much more so than Finale, though I can't confirm from personal experience). I also have Dorico and Notion. I find Notion to be unintuitive and never use it (though I did buy the upgrades). Dorico has great potential but right now it's not there yet (the playback engine is pretty crude, no chord symbols, no large time signature, no video). I have great confidence in the team, they are the best, but it takes time to build a notation program from the ground up.
> 
> I also have Pro Tools, and that works fine for me too (though I wouldn't use it for midi but for audio and rendering projects to be handed off to mixers etc.).
> 
> I've worked as assistant orchestrator for Sundance Film Composer Lab (see blog below), at Skywalker Sound, trust me that unless you are pretty fluent in Sibelius and know what you are doing, there is no way you can crank out scores and part in the very limited amount of time available. In Hollywood Sibelius and Finale are pretty much the standard. We also used Sibelius to re-orchestrate Pee Wee's Big Holiday for the Cleveland Contemporary Youth Orchestra - a wonderful score by Mark Mothersbaugh (lovely movie too, check it out on Netflix). That's nearly 300 pages for just the conductor score, several thousands of pages for all the parts. We only had a few weeks to do it. I can't even imagine doing this by hand or with with the notation program of a sequencing program. Too slow and clunky.
> 
> The subscription model is controversial - some people just hate it - but the upside is that you can "rent" the software for a very reasonable price per month - including student discount. When I bought it, I had to fork out $600. That's quite a bit of money if you are a student (students get a significant discount by the way).
> 
> Same thing with Pro Tools - people love to hate Pro Tools and Avid and there are reasons for that but if you want to work with high end studios and collaborate with people then PT is still the standard. You can use other programs as well (personally I really like Reaper for midi and audio) but having some basic PT skills will get you a long way - also if e.g. you want to work as intern or assistant.
> 
> That's probably why your MFA program requires you to have Sibelius and PT, they want to prepare you as good as possible for the world out there. You don't need an MFA in orchestration to be working in the industry but if that's what you want to, good luck, and go ahead. And don't forget the student discount! That's only available once you are enrolled (have to submit proof of being in a program), so if you want to get your feet wet you may want to go for a subscription until you are in the program.
> 
> http://www.avidblogs.com/sundance-film-composer-lab-at-skywalker-sound/



Thank you for the great post. I'll carry on as I mean to go on then! Yeah I know people don't need any qualifications in music to to work in the industry but I figure trying to learn something I have never done before is going to be hugely rewarding especially when mixing around a lot of people interested in the same thing. Studying an MA at the minute and I feel like I'm learning a lot so I welcome more of this feeling! And best not forget the relentless deadlines in and out of study! I shall buy Sibelius next month!


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## peter5992

jononotbono said:


> Thank you for the great post. I'll carry on as I mean to go on then! Yeah I know people don't need any qualifications in music to to work in the industry but I figure trying to learn something I have never done before is going to be hugely rewarding especially when mixing around a lot of people interested in the same thing. Studying an MA at the minute and I feel like I'm learning a lot so I welcome more of this feeling! And best not forget the relentless deadlines in and out of study! I shall buy Sibelius next month!



Good luck, and go for it ... and make sure to check out the program you're about to enter. There's a lot of so so programs being offered these days, I should know, I paid a lot of money for a meh MFA program, at some point it got so ridiculous I just quit. 

And don't forget that with the internet, you can learn so much about orchestration from free online resources ... join groups like Orchestration Online on Facebook, and Engraving Tips also on Facebook, sign up for the Sibelius forum once you have the program, it's a wonderful community with the kindest and helpful people you'll ever meet. There are free scores out of copyright on the Petrucci Music Library which I recommend you study, there are excellent books on orchestration with student guides like Adler on Orchestration ... for a fraction of what a MFA would cost you, you can self-educate yourself. 

And listen to as much music as you can ... Rite of Spring, Bartok, Star Wars (that score is available for purchase as well), film scores published by Omni Publishing. View all of this as a long term investment ... there's so much out there to learn, it can be overwhelming, and you're never quite finished.


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## CathodeRay

GdT said:


> I am running Sibelius 7.1 in OS X 10.11.
> 
> Oh someone sent me a Sibelius file from a newer version of Sibelius and I can't open it in Sibelius 7 - doh! (Another reason for moving off Sibelius.)
> Anyone know how I can get the file converted for Sibelius 7 format without buying a ludicrously expensive upgrade for no benefit?



Thanks, I am late reading this - notification problem - 
Re: Newer version to later version: have you tried xml sport/import?


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## wcreed51

Just have them save it in ver 7 format.

This has nothing to do with Sibelius; this would be true of any software


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