# POLL: Music theory in your career



## borisb2 (Nov 30, 2019)

In my earlier life I chose to not study music but something else. Worked than in EDM music for many years - lately I‘m regretting a bit not having studied music properly. At the moment I'm catching up with self-study

Would like to get your take on that.. what is your past?

Any comments welcome of course

EDIT: changed the poll to anonymous - not everybody wants to reveal his/her background - which is fine


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## tokatila (Nov 30, 2019)

borisb2 said:


> I‘m interested h



h is B in german notation system.


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## borisb2 (Nov 30, 2019)

tokatila said:


> h is B in german notation system.


Haha.. i wasnt finished but accidentally hit post on my phone 😋


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## premjj (Nov 30, 2019)

What about votes from people who don't know any theory and just play by ear?


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## borisb2 (Nov 30, 2019)

premjj said:


> What about votes from people who don't know any theory and just play by ear?


thought that would be captured by "I dont need any theory"? .. but I can add that

EDIT: looks like the time for changing the answers is over


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## premjj (Nov 30, 2019)

borisb2 said:


> thought that would be captured by "I dont need any theory"? .. but I can add that
> 
> EDIT: looks like the time for changing the answers is over



Didn't get that. 
Is the survey editing time bound? Even for the person who created it?


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## borisb2 (Nov 30, 2019)

premjj said:


> Didn't get that.
> Is the survey editing time bound? Even for the person who created it?


seems like it ..could change some typos after posting - that doesnt seem possible anymore..

so I would say "I dont need any theory" in the poll includes everything from "I dont give a damn about harmonies because I never need them" to "I'm playing by ear, my name is mozart2"


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## borisb2 (Dec 8, 2019)

Interesting results so far .. thanks 👍


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## Jaap (Dec 8, 2019)

I work fulltime in the music industry and studied music. It helps for me to have a solid knowledge, but learned even more during my 20 years that I work now about DAWs, audio engineering, programming, sound design, marketing etc etc. Stuff that I did not learn at the conservatory, but the study was good to experiment and learn without pressure of making a living from it. That freedom was priceless for me.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 8, 2019)

Do i need theory to compose? No, i use my ear.

Should i study theory to become a better musician? Yes, absolutely!

I know i would be much more effcient if i knew more theory. I'm just so used to doing everything by ear, but i think that can backfire in some situations.


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## KEM (Dec 8, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> Do i need theory to compose? No, i use my ear.
> 
> Should i study theory to become a better musician? Yes, absolutely!
> 
> I know i would be much more effcient if i knew more theory. I'm just so used to doing everything by ear, but i think that can backfire in some situations.



100% me, and I'm 22 so I should probably just start studying haha


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## Mike Fox (Dec 8, 2019)

KEM said:


> 100% me, and I'm 22 so I should probably just start studying haha



Yes!!! I'm 36, and really wish i starting learning theory at your age. 

Don't procrastinate any longer!!!


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## KEM (Dec 8, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> Yes!!! I'm 36, and really wish i starting learning theory at your age.
> 
> Don't procrastinate any longer!!!



I have Rimsky-Korsakov's harmony and orchestration books sitting right in front of me, guess it's time I open them up!


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## Mike Fox (Dec 8, 2019)

KEM said:


> I have Rimsky-Korsakov's harmony and orchestration books sitting right in front of me, guess it's time I open them up!


Go for it!!!


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## borisb2 (Dec 8, 2019)

can't recommend enough norman ludwin (UCLA instructor) courses:




__





Music New Approach | Ludwin Music | United States


Music Composition Lessons | Ludwin Music




www.musicnewapproach.com





really like his way of teaching


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## KEM (Dec 8, 2019)

borisb2 said:


> can't recommend enough norman ludwin (UCLA instructor) courses:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've been studying under him for over a year now and can't recommend him enough either!!!


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## borisb2 (Dec 8, 2019)

KEM said:


> I've been studying under him for over a year now


you mean at UCLA? ..nice


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## KEM (Dec 8, 2019)

borisb2 said:


> you mean at UCLA? ..nice



Nah private lessons online, I would never go to school personally, but I definitely see the value in education, and he is a wonderful educator!


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## Sears Poncho (Dec 8, 2019)

premjj said:


> What about votes from people who don't know any theory and just play by ear?


Well, they know music theory then. They know lots of theory: what an interval is, what chords are, what a melody is, what harmony is. 

"Music Theory" is a shitty name. It should be called "Music stuff", since that's what it is. A pickup note is an "Anacrusis". Another name would be "pickup note". That's what 99.99% of the music world calls it. There's a fair amount of that in college music theory class. Scordatura- fancy word for "alternate tuning" or maybe "drop tuning". "Row Row Row" is a simple canonic round. So, 5 year olds know what a simple canonic round is, they just don't know the fancy name.

Exposition, Development, Recapitulation: Beginning part, part in the middle where you fool around with it, end part that is like the beginning. Coda= outro (kinda). 

There's a reverse aspect to it as well:

Someone- "Orchestra, let's start at the bridge".
Orchestra- (Deer in headlights look)
Someone- "Ummm, start at measure 56".

College music theory often doesn't teach "practical" music theory, it's a lotta Egghead stuff and not enough "this is a slash chord". Overall, music theory isn't that scary. It's just getting accustomed to different terms to stuff most people know somewhat. Anticipation, Escape Tone, Passing Tone, Upper/lower neighbor- everybody pretty much knows this stuff, it's simple. They just don't know that someone invented goofy names for everything.


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## mc_deli (Dec 9, 2019)

I studied... but not enough!


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## LudovicVDP (Dec 9, 2019)

Looking for "Self-taugh and really being frustrated every day not having a proper theory background" in the poll...


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## Loïc D (Dec 9, 2019)

I’m a bit between 2 categories (hobbyist) :
- I studied theory (the boring one focused on sight-reading & dictations) but had to study a lot more by myself for composition.


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## Tice (Dec 9, 2019)

Only 14% of people here who work in the industry are self-taught? I really thought that figure would be higher!


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## borisb2 (Dec 9, 2019)

I also find the number of "studied music theory but changed career path" interesting


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## Minko (Dec 9, 2019)

I do not have the background and I’m catching up. I feel it is a dent in my confidence. 
Sometimes it is very frustrating not to know the right “grammar” to say things musically. 

I wish I would have taken the time to learn the theory, not to study it. I want to compose music not lecture on it.

I sometimes feel like everybody I know with the proper education pushes pieces out like it is nothing while I’m struggling along the way.

But music production is more than music theory. You’ll need computer knowledge, sound design mixing etc. And you will need to keep learning.

I used to work in project engineering. There it is the same thing. You need to keep learning. 

And you can’t learn by just study. You need to do and practice.

So my take is study and practice, be a composer not a professor.


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## angeruroth (Dec 9, 2019)

IMHO to know "all the needed theory" is an impossible task, because... Needed for what? I mean, what if you learn enough to create simple ambient soundtracks, and you do that, but tomorrow you need a sonata?


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## Fever Phoenix (Dec 9, 2019)

well, I am somewhere between answer 1 and 2, so I answered with 1 🤷‍♂️ 

I had classical training as a teenager in singing and music theory.

I did a lot of learning (and still do) throughout my adult life by myself and by working with other people.


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## J-M (Dec 9, 2019)

Where is the "I'm a glorified bedroom composer and I realized that theory might be a good thing to learn"-option?


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## Prockamanisc (Dec 9, 2019)

The question that your post is asking will not be answered by the questions asked in your survey. What if you studied comp in college, work full time in the industry, and yet it had little to do with my career?


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## Sears Poncho (Dec 9, 2019)

Prockamanisc said:


> The question that your post is asking will not be answered by the questions asked in your survey. What if you studied comp in college, work full time in the industry, and yet it had little to do with my career?


Kinda like Algebra or Elizabethan Poetry. Haven't used much of either, but if I ever get held up at gunpoint and the gunman says "Tell me a form of Iambic Pentameter" I can say "Sonnet" and live. And if you're ever on Jeopardy! and the answer is "What is an Anacrusis?", you're gonna bring home some big bucks.


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## sourcefor (Dec 9, 2019)

I started in school when I was 10, then quit for many years, then took theory and composition in college, dint learn because I was bored...then years later started studying again Theory and Piano and Composition and now say 'OH that's what they are doing!' I take classes regularly, as I Love learning more now than ever! It DOES help when you can talk the talk and understand what you are doing, so I recommend learning all you can !!!!!!


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## jmauz (Dec 9, 2019)

Learning music theory is enriching and interesting! It's really quite simple....there's only 12 notes for chrissakes. I'm a drummer and even *I* figured it out. 

Come on all you young bucks...start using more than 2 chords in your EDM productions. For the love of gawd, PLEASE.


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## TimCox (Dec 9, 2019)

I write with my ear and instincts and then roll back and use theory to hem the seams


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## JT (Dec 9, 2019)

I majored in composition, took all the courses, very little of what I learned in school was applicable in the real world. I worked as a copyist and I learned more by looking at scores from the composers I was copying for. I'm a lousy piano player, but I studied piano with a jazz instructor who introduced me to chord substitution. I understood what he taught me and used that knowledge in my writing, but I wasn't able to make it come through my fingers at the keyboard.


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## JJP (Dec 9, 2019)

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that learning more about music theory will somehow limit you. That's false. Also don't make the mistake that learning music theory is some ivory-tower, academic endeavor that exists in Plato's realm of ideas with no application to the real world. One can take that approach to studying anything, but it's not practical.

I've used this analogy before here, but it bears repeating. Studying music theory is like learning grammar. You're learning the mechanics of the musical language. In music many of those mechanics are based in the physics of sound, so you're actually learning what works in reality. The rest of it is learning the cultural conventions of how we communicate through our culture's music. This can be taught in a purely theoretical sense or it can be taught in an applied way. Either way, you are learning most of the same material.

You can speak a language without learning proper grammar, but it will limit your ability to communicate. The same is true with music. Whatever you learn goes into your toolbox. You can decide when and how to use each of those tools. That said, be prepared that there is some basic "nuts and bolts" "grammatical" material (intervals, chords, basic notation, etc) you'll need to master first before you can dive into the more useful techniques.


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## Uiroo (Dec 9, 2019)

jmauz said:


> Learning music theory is enriching and interesting! It's really quite simple....there's only 12 notes for chrissakes. I'm a drummer and even *I* figured it out.
> 
> Come on all you young bucks...start using more than 2 chords in your EDM productions. For the love of gawd, PLEASE.


So you figured out Hexatonics, Octatonics, species counterpoint, retrogradable counterpoint, harmonic relativity, classical 4-part writing, embellishing tones, church modes, melodic minor modes, harmonic major and minor modes, symmetrical scales, augmented 6th chords, the ambivalence of diminished 7th chords, orchestration, formal structure, polytonality, aaaand so on.. ?

My point is: When have you "learned theory". I know about all of the topics above, some just roughly, and some a bit more. 
What would be enough? 
Maybe it would actually be of interest to beginners to formulate a list of topics which would cover some ground.

ps: Drummer here, too :D


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## borisb2 (Dec 9, 2019)

quick overview of what I've gone through recently:

Hexatonics - Norman Ludwin, modes and hexachords
Octatonics - Norman Ludwin, modes and hexachords
species counterpoint - Scoreclub, practical counterpoint
retrogradable counterpoint - Scoreclub, practical counterpoint
harmonic relativity - Aldwell & Schachter (Harmony & VoiceLeading) / Schoenberg (Composition)
classical 4-part writing - Piston, Harmony
embellishing tones - artofcomposing, fundamentals of musical composition
church modes - Alan Belkin, modern harmony
melodic minor modes - Alan Belkin, modern harmony
harmonic major and minor modes - Alan Belkin, modern harmony
symmetrical scales - Alan Belkin, Linear Harmony
augmented 6th chords - Aldwell & Schachter (Harmony & VoiceLeading)
the ambivalence of diminished 7th chords - Aldwell & Schachter (Harmony & VoiceLeading)
orchestration - Norman Ludwin, Orchestration / Scoreclub, orchestrating the line
formal structure - Caplin, Classical form
polytonality - Alan Belkin, modern harmony

.. it's fun


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## borisb2 (Dec 9, 2019)

Uiroo said:


> Maybe it would actually be of interest to beginners to formulate a list of topics which would cover some ground.


that is actually a great idea .. before I started diving in about a year ago I had a very close look at all the curriculums available from various schools, book requirements at these schools, recommendations etc. ..

at the moment I am setting up a class schedule (for myself) of what I want to cover per week .. with exact timings of course


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## mscp (Dec 9, 2019)

Just being the grammar police that I am - in the poll, the past tense of teach is TAUGHT, not TEACHED.
Just saying. 

I have taught myself music theory - about a decade or so ago - and I can assure you that it did help me a lot. Whether it is necessary or not, well. I've heard Jimi Hendrix didn't know what he was playing, except he was feeling it. Whether that's entirely true or "fake news", I don't know...


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## chocobitz825 (Dec 9, 2019)

Phil81 said:


> Just being the grammar police that I am - in the poll, the past tense of teach is TAUGHT, not TEACHED.
> Just saying.



THANK YOU!


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## borisb2 (Dec 9, 2019)

holy crap, didn't realize .. the poll doesn't let me to change the text anymore / the poll doesn't let me changing the text anymore .. no idea whats correct 

.. very sorry


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## germancomponist (Dec 9, 2019)

Music theory can help a lot! I never cared about it, but my girlfriend studied it. She is a great composer and I am her arranger at our work on an album right now.

Sometimes, when I experiment and try a lot of things, she has already theoretically heard a great solution in her head, built with outstanding harmonies.


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## gsilbers (Dec 9, 2019)

I studied at Berklee and I see rick beatos videos and not only online he has the same info... but the style of teacher is exactly the same. The whole Italian American in your face attitude -talking a mile per hour about chord scales and playing yellow jackets jazz style music all the time... yep that’s berklee. I only use about 10% of it and it’s a lot. or u can try to “figure out” one chord like jxl and earn millions. You know.. sometimes things are relatives and there are a lot of variables.


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## mscp (Dec 9, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> I studied at Berklee and I see rick beatos videos and not only online he has the same info... but the style of teacher is exactly the same. The whole Italian American in your face attitude -talking a mile per hour about chord scales and playing yellow jackets jazz style music all the time... yep that’s berklee. I only use about 10% of it and it’s a lot. or u can try to “figure out” one chord like jxl and earn millions. You know.. sometimes things are relatives and there are a lot of variables.



this ^^


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## dpasdernick (Dec 9, 2019)

I came from the Sigue Sigue Sputnik theory of music where they say it's easier to teach someone how to play a musical instrument than to teach them how to have good cheek bones. Be beautiful. It will get you a lot further in life than knowing an Ab from a quarter note. Trust me.


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## dpasdernick (Dec 9, 2019)

gsilbers said:


> I studied at Berklee and I see rick beatos videos and not only online he has the same info... but the style of teacher is exactly the same. The whole Italian American in your face attitude -talking a mile per hour about chord scales and playing yellow jackets jazz style music all the time... yep that’s berklee. I only use about 10% of it and it’s a lot. or u can try to “figure out” one chord like jxl and earn millions. You know.. sometimes things are relatives and there are a lot of variables.



Junkie XL gets more music out of one chord than I get out of all of them.


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## lsabina (Dec 9, 2019)

A worthy 2011 post from Mike Verta-

“In fact, you should thank your lucky stars you weren't trying to work before about 1990, when most of the people who now call themselves composers would barely have been considered _musicians_, let alone had a remote chance in hell of finding a job when they had next to zero skills.

Try walking onto the Paramount lot in 1970 unable to read or write music, being unable to write counterpoint or melodies, unable to orchestrate, unable to conduct, with no knowledge of the repertoire, no theoretical training, no experience playing in an orchestra, and unable to play an instrument with any proficiency. You wouldn't make it past the gift shop.”


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## mikeh-375 (Dec 9, 2019)

@Isabina^^^I can for one confirm that this was how it was (although not quite back to 1970). The advent of the computer democratised the profession and some of us had a very steep learning curve to overcome in order to survive. However when we came out the other end, we still knew our craft and that is and always will be an advantage.


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## Vik (Dec 10, 2019)

_Needing_ music theory or not... not sure, I guess that would depend on what kind of music one wants to make. But if someone really wants to make music, wouldn't they be very interested in learning more about harmonies, or even about notation - because notation can be a very useful tool when figuring out how other pieces are written, and why they sound the way they do. Of course one can rely on using ones ears only, and many do. But it seems that at least certain parts of the learning process is easier after having dived into the world of harmonies - and if one can read music.


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## Sears Poncho (Dec 10, 2019)

Vik said:


> But if someone really wants to make music, wouldn't they be very interested in learning more about harmonies, or even about notation



It's all "theory". There is really no beginning or end. Harmony is definitely "theory", my first theory book was called "Harmony, by Walter Piston". Notation is theory, it's assumed that one can read when they get to college level but it all depends. Rockers might not but they probably know much more about chords than classical peeps. Pianists know a lot more going in because of the nature of the instrument/repertoire.

Theory 101 can cover a lot, then it goes into separate classes like "Ear training". Solfege (Do Re Mi)was the biggest waste of time possible. Counterpoint etc, it's all a variation on theory.


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## anjwilson (Dec 10, 2019)

There isn't such a monolithic thing as music theory


Sears Poncho said:


> It's all "theory". There is really no beginning or end. Harmony is definitely "theory", my first theory book was called "Harmony, by Walter Piston". Notation is theory, it's assumed that one can read when they get to college level but it all depends. Rockers might not but they probably know much more about chords than classical peeps. Pianists know a lot more going in because of the nature of the instrument/repertoire.
> 
> Theory 101 can cover a lot, then it goes into separate classes like "Ear training". Solfege (Do Re Mi)was the biggest waste of time possible. Counterpoint etc, it's all a variation on theory.



It's probably best to think of theory as everything to do with musical structure -- Far more than the usual freshman-sophomore curriculum of harmony, counterpoint, sight singing, dictation, and basics of form and analysis. 

Personally, I wish more composers and performers studied rhythmic theory and musical meaning, but even these are so rarely included in undergraduate curricula anywhere.


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## Loïc D (Feb 7, 2020)

Funny enough, there's the same percentage of self-taught pro than musically-trained hobbyists.
Dunno how to interpret it though. Any (musically-trained or not) sociologist among us ?


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## JJP (Feb 7, 2020)

I think whenever another "Should I learn theory?" thread appears the server should automatically generate a link to direct the original poster to the results of this poll.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 7, 2020)

Poll is odd. I studied music theory but what is a career path change? I'm a hobbyist. I studied music theory before all off this software nonsense started. I should use my education and make some 12 tone trance.
I think for many VIs it's not a bad idea to know about how instruments work and their strengths and weaknesses. You don't want flutes playing middle C and trombones doing 32 notes.


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## jononotbono (Feb 7, 2020)

Where is the option for "I work in the Music Industry and still trying to learn theory... When I have time"?


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 7, 2020)

There must be an error. I'm positive that this is by far the loudest demographic most of the places I go, so either they just haven't found this thread because they are swimming through piles of cash - or we have the least theory-allergic users of any forum for creating music.


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## Fever Phoenix (Feb 7, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Where is the option for "I work in the Music Industry and still trying to learn theory... When I have time"?


story of my life 🤣


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 7, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Where is the option for "I work in the Music Industry and still trying to learn theory... When I have time"?



I personally don't think it should be seperated between teaching self and studying. It's great if you are in a structured enviroment because you're more likely to actually practice via homework, and of course ear training/dictation/transcribing is something that's a little weird to try to teach yourself. That said, even when I was technically taking classes I was busy on my own learning as much as I could(still do). 

I didn't take it in college because I placed out of it, having read the entire tonal harmony text book before I even took the AP theory class. When I applied for a scholarship with a principle instrument they gave a theory placement and the music director called me back to take the first year theory final and didn't even finish grading it. To somebody hungry and access to a text book with listening examples(was CD, not quite as convenient as mp3) I learned a lot more than many of the people who have to take theory classes in college because many of them are instrumentalists and don't care about it. 

just food for thought. I'm trying to find the *right* orchestration books for me at the moment, and I'll watch videos/read about concepts I already know because sometimes they rephrase it in a way that I still learn something.(shout out to scoreclub and verta)


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## borisb2 (Feb 7, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> so either they just haven't found this thread because they are swimming through piles of cash


I guess thats also because this poll was obviously made in the composition/orchestration forum, not in sample talk. Somebody who is not interested in theory probably won't be here so often ..


kitekrazy said:


> Poll is odd


The poll is still perfect  .. kidding


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## ProfoundSilence (Feb 7, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> I guess thats also because this poll was obviously made in the composition/orchestration forum, not in sample talk. Somebody who is not interested in theory probably won't be here so often ..


good catch, I only saw the thread because it was posted on recently - I didn't find it by browsing this sub forum, but I'm sure that has something to do with it.


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