# Totally amazing JW style piece by "Ben Lasker" - maybe a pseudonym for Benjamin Wallfisch?



## Lionel Schmitt

Isn't this piece the absolute killer?

https://picosong.com/wXN2D/

I really love it, especially the soaring strings parts...
1:27 in the piece blows my mind... 
It's production music - a piece from the CPM catalogue over at WarnerChappelPM. Released 2013 on the album "Experience The Adventure".

How can this guy... Ben Lasker... be a ghost? He sounds extremely experienced, skilled and passionate. But there is noooothing about him on the web and his other tracks on WarnerChappel are nowhere near as interesting and often rather old. And there is no second piece by him like the one linked above.
My theory is that it's Benjamin Wallfisch. His full name is _*BEN*jamin Mark* LASKER *Wallfisch_. That's the most likely explanation!

So, I hope you'll love this track as much as I do. :D


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## goalie composer

Intense!


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## Architekton

Its ok, lots of movement, but nothing memorable honestly. I dont remember a single melody line or chord after hearing it.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Architekton said:


> Its ok, lots of movement, but nothing memorable honestly. I dont remember a single melody line or chord after hearing it.


I wouldn't need that, but I actually do remember 2 main themes/motifs. And the string melody from around 1:27 minute onwards... it will never leave my head! 
The rest is to complex to remember for me, which is not at all a bad thing.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

Great production,technically cool. Often random (for me) but still very cool piece.


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## Lionel Schmitt

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Great production,technically cool. Often random (for me) but still very cool piece.


I can see hear some randomness here and there in the more wild parts, but for me it's moments like the ET-style soaring parts (!holy!wow!) and the fanfare-ish adventure moments that get me.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

DarkestShadow said:


> I can see hear some randomness here and there in the more wild parts, but for me it's moments like the ET-style soaring parts (!holy!wow!) and the fanfare-ish adventure moments that get me.



Its all cool definitely, vibe is there but not the control which tells me he writes above his head. Though: its of course enjoyable and has great moments. Thx for sharing


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## PeterN

DarkestShadow said:


> So, I hope you'll love this track as much as I do. :D



Yea, it was great, thanks for sharing this.

I dont believe this guy sat randomly down and made this stuff with some sketches, there is either some teamwork behind, or it took very long time - possibly several months, even a year. Maybe lsd too or something like that.


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## Lionel Schmitt

PeterN said:


> Yea, it was great, thanks for sharing this.
> 
> I dont believe this guy sat randomly down and made this stuff with some sketches, there is either some teamwork behind, or it took very long time - possibly several months, even a year. Maybe lsd too or something like that.


Why? Someone very skilled could certainly write this in a few days. It's great but hey... there are great composers! The composer seems to be Benjamin Wallfisch, who is very skilled. 
And John Williams for example has written a lot of great music and certainly didn't take 1 year for 4 minutes of music.


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## aaronventure

DarkestShadow said:


> Why? Someone very skilled could certainly write this in a few days. It's great but hey... there are great composers! The composer seems to be Benjamin Wallfisch, who is very skilled.
> And John Williams for example has written a lot of great music and certainly didn't take 1 year for 4 minutes of music.


I think he's joking


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## Lionel Schmitt

aaronventure said:


> I think he's joking


I hope haha, but no idea what this joke would refer too...


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## Consona

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Its all cool definitely, vibe is there but not the control which tells me he writes above his head.


Yep, pieces like these make you value Williams all the more. And while I appreciate the effort here, I wouldn't say


DarkestShadow said:


> He sounds extremely experienced, skilled


It's way too messy to use those words.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Consona said:


> Yep, pieces like these make you value Williams all the more. And while I appreciate the effort here, I wouldn't say
> 
> It's way too messy to use those words.


There are few somewhat messy parts. But the soaring string parts and elegantly written fanfare-ish moments And thus far I haven't heard anything better by John Williams, except his work on Close Encounter Of The 3rd Kind. But I also haven't heard so many of his musics!  

I'm not really analyzing it technically, just reacting to it emotionally. I feel more engaged by the piece I shared. It feels like a Magnum Opus, like the composer looked at the brief which most likely went like _"write what ever you want, just keep "Adventure" in mind and we'll record it with a big orchestra" _and just thought - HELL YES!!!! :D


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## Consona

DarkestShadow said:


> thus far I haven't heard anything better by John Williams, except his work on Close Encounter Of The 3rd Kind. But I also haven't heard so many of his musics!


It's probably time to take a listen. 

Basically any Star Wars action cue is way better than this.


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## NoamL

You guys are nuts 

Also surely you all noticed this is live orchestra? Not just live but a live symphony sized orchestra with choir. That's why it's a one-off. It was recorded as a showpiece to win gigs. I know another composer who did something similar (at great expense). It's all about convincing the studio. "Yes, give me an orchestra and I can give them a workout because I am a REAL composer." BW is a badass.


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## teammwrp

DarkestShadow said:


> There are few somewhat messy parts.... And thus far I haven't heard anything better by John Williams, except his work on Close Encounter Of The 3rd Kind. But I also haven't heard so many of his musics!



JW doesn't ever have "messy" parts. In his music, like that of Bach, the more granular you go, and the deeper you dive, the more organization and purposefulness you will find.


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## SimonCharlesHanna

Yeah - orchestration-wise it is fantastic (top level) but it lacks a heart of any sort, like a caricature or impression/impersonation, as if the composer knows *what *this style sounds like, but never fully grasped *why*.


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## Soundlex

Yeah it screams JW everywhere but I also hear a ton of Alan Silvestri tricks here, I mean you can almost hear the Predator main theme and orchestration @ 2:09
Also what makes you think it's Wallfisch?


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## SimonCharlesHanna




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## Nils Neumann

Thank you for sharing!


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## Soundlex

SimonCharlesHanna said:


>


Ok, that's pretty clear... I missed that part. Thanks


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## Consona

NoamL said:


> You guys are nuts
> 
> Also surely you all noticed this is live orchestra? Not just live but a live symphony sized orchestra with choir. That's why it's a one-off. It was recorded as a showpiece to win gigs. I know another composer who did something similar (at great expense). It's all about convincing the studio. "Yes, give me an orchestra and I can give them a workout because I am a REAL composer." BW is a badass.


Hm. Honestly, pieces like this is something you have in your drawer, repeatedly revisiting, trying to get better and better at, not something you show people to get a job.

Basically all this shows is, it's not easy to write even a minute of cohesive meaningful JW-like music and that even people who score films for hollywood now cannot do it. Not even one minute...

Made me listen to this, one of the few pieces I know that does a competent job at sounding JW-like:


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## Nils Neumann

Consona said:


> Hm. Honestly, pieces like this is something you have in your drawer, repeatedly revisiting, trying to get better and better at, not something you show people to get a job.
> 
> Basically all this shows is, it's not easy to write even a minute of cohesive meaningful JW-like music and that even people who score films for hollywood now cannot do it. Not even one minute...
> 
> Made me listen to this, one of the few pieces I know that does a competent job at sounding JW-like:




And yet still I'm here and listening to BW song on repeat. What is up with you bashing this piece?^^


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## Simon Ravn

Technically very nice. And I like Benjamin Wallfisch a lot, actually! Comparing this to John Williams just doesn't make sense. Sure I can hear the inspiration here and there, but it completely lacks the structural, melodic and sheer compositional surplus that Williams shows.

I would never mistake this for a JW composition. Just listening to a couple of bars makes it clear.

No shame in not being John Williams though. Being Benjamin Wallfisch would be fine with me


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## Consona

Nils Neumann said:


> And yet still I'm here and listening to BW song on repeat. What is up with you bashing this piece?^^



Sorry, I guess I'm allergic to titles like "Totally amazing JW style piece" when the music itself is a rather bumpy exercise than "Totally amazing JW style piece".


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## Lionel Schmitt

Consona said:


> Sorry, I guess I'm allergic to titles like "Totally amazing JW style piece" when the music itself is a rather bumpy exercise than "Totally amazing JW style piece".


JW - *STYLE*
not _quality_. Wouldn't want unleash that storm on me.  

And whether it is a bumpy exercise or not is a matter of taste/perspective.  A lot of others enjoy it quite a lot!


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## Erick - BVA

Am I the only one who's not really a huge fan of JW and who doesn't really want to sound like him?


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## Simon Ravn

Sibelius19 said:


> Am I the only one who's not really a huge fan of JW and who doesn't really want to sound like him?



I am a huge fan of him but I don't want to sound like him.


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## Soundlex

Consona said:


> Sorry, I guess I'm allergic to titles like "Totally amazing JW style piece" when the music itself is a rather bumpy exercise than "Totally amazing JW style piece".


He probably think the same and that's why it's not signed as a Wallfisch work... Now the Mike Verta piece absolutely nails it as far as orchestration, chords progression, fluidity of the track, etc...but in my opinion it fails pretty hard thematically speaking. Can't remember even a slight part of a theme. I guess it just shows that the time spent on trying to nail it is not time spent on the pure essence of music. But Verta is very impressive indeed. Wallfisch also when he is himself. I mean even Williams sound like G.Mahler sometimes but I doubt he tries to "nail" anything...


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## Erick - BVA

Soundlex said:


> He probably think the same and that's why it's not signed as a Wallfisch work... Now the Mike Verta piece absolutely nails it as far as orchestration, chords progression, fluidity of the track, etc...but in my opinion it fails pretty hard thematically speaking. Can't remember even a slight part of a theme. I guess it just shows that the time spent on trying to nail it is not time spent on the pure essence of music. But Verta is very impressive indeed. Wallfisch also when he is himself. I mean even Williams sound like G.Mahler sometimes but I doubt he tries to "nail" anything...


Ah, Mahler. Love Mahler.


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## Erick - BVA

I guess for me a lot JW stuff sounds like little musical vignettes, with not much heart. Lots of movement and sophistication in orchestration....but that's about it. Like an exercise. I think I am opposed to the philosophy to continue the same style from movie to movie. I'm not a film scoring star, so maybe it means nothing. But my philosophy is that music should change depending on the script, story, etc. I think as much hate as he gets from others, Hans Zimmer at least seems to do this more so. I respect that. Okay, sure, I respect John Williams, but kind of tired of the JW adventure cue stuff. Really like some of the more atonal stuff from Star Wars, and some stuff from Schindler's List. One of the most overrated soundtracks in history has to be Jurrasic Park.


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## Consona

DarkestShadow said:


> JW - *STYLE*
> not _quality_. Wouldn't want unleash that storm on me.


Well, and what's so totally amazing, if it's not the quality? What were you referring to then?


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## Lionel Schmitt

Consona said:


> Well, and what's so totally amazing, if it's not the quality? What were you referring to then?


Quality of course. But it's a very unspecific term - depends on what you value and what not.
I find it technically impressive - although probably less than JW's works. But I still feel much more engaged by it than what I heard of JW (and most other composers) so far. I value that more than technicality. 

I'm also really in love the strings lead part from about 1 min. onwards.
Never heard something so wonderfully soaring...
The action parts don't blow me away that much.


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## Consona

Soundlex said:


> He probably think the same and that's why it's not signed as a Wallfisch work... Now the Mike Verta piece absolutely nails it as far as orchestration, chords progression, fluidity of the track, etc...but in my opinion it fails pretty hard thematically speaking. Can't remember even a slight part of a theme.


Really? The theme at 1:29, where I started the video, is very easily memorable, IMO. I'm not saying it's Harry Potter or Force theme, but it's far from a bland or generic melody.



Sibelius19 said:


> I guess for me a lot JW stuff sounds like little musical vignettes, with not much heart. Lots of movement and sophistication in orchestration....but that's about it. Like an exercise. I think I am opposed to the philosophy to continue the same style from movie to movie. I'm not a film scoring star, so maybe it means nothing. But my philosophy is that music should change depending on the script, story, etc. I think as much hate as he gets from others, Hans Zimmer at least seems to do this more so. I respect that. Okay, sure, I respect John Williams, but kind of tired of the JW adventure cue stuff. Really like some of the more atonal stuff from Star Wars, and some stuff from Schindler's List. One of the most overrated soundtracks in history has to be Jurrasic Park.


While Jurrasic Park score is amazing, honestly how many people can compose something as wonderful as this:


(Hint: Zero, null, nought, nil, nobody. )

I agree on Zimmer's approach, I like how he tailors the sound very much to the feeling and concept of a given film. Plus he can compose really good themes. So while his compositions are not Williams/Horner/Goldsmith fluent/agile/sophisticated, he can still grab your ear and emotions. I mean, Willams' Superman is a timeless classic, yet Zimmer's What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving the World? hits me right in the feels more than Williams, honestly.


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## rottoy

Consona said:


> Really? The theme at 1:29, where I started the video, is very easily memorable, IMO. I'm not saying it's Harry Potter or Force theme, but it's far from a bland or generic melody.
> 
> 
> While Jurrasic Park score is amazing, honestly how many people can compose something as wonderful as this:
> 
> 
> (Hint: Zero, null, nought, nil, nobody. )
> 
> I agree on Zimmer's approach, I like how he tailors the sound very much to the feeling and concept of a given film. Plus he can compose really good themes. So while his compositions are not Williams/Horner/Goldsmith fluent/agile/sophisticated, he can still grab your ear and emotions. I mean, Willams' Superman is a timeless classic, yet Zimmer's What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving the World? hits me right in the feels more than Williams, honestly.



I've always liked the beginning of this piece, the build up 0-1:19 to the first fanfare.
Great example of how to create momentum with melodic grace.


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## Consona

DarkestShadow said:


> Quality of course. But it's a very unspecific term - depends on what you value and what not.
> I find it technically impressive - although probably less than JW's works. But I still feel much more engaged by it than what I heard of JW (and most other composers) so far. I value that more than technicality.
> 
> I'm also really in love the strings lead part from about 1 min. onwards.
> Never heard something so wonderfully soaring...
> The action parts don't blow me away that much.


No problem, enjoy the piece if you like it, of course.

To me, it takes like 10, 15 seconds and I already feel something's off and it didn't improve. I just don't feel a firm grasp on the material.

Those strings after 1 minute mark sound very nice, yes. But again, the whole minute of that is not that convincing, the melody slides into some sideways and it's not crystal clear what the idea is, it's like noodling at times (maybe this was the point, if so then I'm off here). But listen to Love Pledge from Star Wars, Williams handles a long melody line with such a bravura, the purposefulness and direction, the orchestration. There's not one moment where you'd feel an urge to question whether he knows what he's doing.


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## Consona

I'm glad this thread exists, it reminds me, again, how much work we have ahead of us to be at least somewhat relevant next to the people like Williams.


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## Lionel Schmitt

I can see what you mean with the strings drifting off here and there, but it doesn't away much from the appeal to me... again - technically not perfect in all places, but still awfully engaging.

I'm sure I heard Love Pledge already (can't check, no audio-device ATM - edit: working again - indeed, not that impressed - more clarity but less engaging for me). I only remember that because I remember the comments under the YouTube video. Enough said. 

Also not impressed by the Jurrasic Park part linked. Guess I'll never become a big JW fan.
Although I absolutely love this - far more than our controversial BW track.  But the style and aim is also not quite comparable here...


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## Lionel Schmitt

Goodness... the action parts in JW's Love Pledge sound so random to me... I expected to like JW doing frenzy stuff more than BW, but... no. Only the orchestra sounds more focused and in time. We'll, such subjective stuff...

I also find the soaring theme kinda goes into nothing at the end of the phrase - if that's the right musical term.


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## Erick - BVA

I like the close-encounters stuff. Really cool. Parts of it kind of sound like a Disney soundtrack. Surprised he never scored a Diseny movie.


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## JohnBMears

Kind of reminds me of everything after :38 in this clip. Super-exciting sounding....sound waves... The magic of orchestration, sans composition.


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## Brendon Williams

Good god there’s a lot of salt in this thread. Most of the comments remind me of the scoring equivalent of a common scenario a friend of mine experiences in the guitar world: he posts a video of him playing guitar on social media, something he casually put together for fun. He’s an extremely skilled shredder/metal guitarist, so immediately comments start coming in by random “arbiters of taste” saying the following:

“Well sure, you have technique, but where’s the soul?”
“All that technique is pointless if you can’t make me feel anything.”
“Go out and listen to some real guitar players, like Jimmi Hendrix.”

Maybe sometimes people just want to have fun shredding? That’s essentially what I hear in this piece @DarkestShadow shared, and I for one had a blast listening to it! And even if you hated it (which I could totally understand, it’s ridiculously over-orchestrated and flowery at times — like someone might complain about shredding on guitar) — why would anyone go in expecting it to rival the best work of John Williams, arguably the best composer of our time? It’s a library track under a pseudonym for crying out loud.

And anyway, how do we know this was even intended to be anything other than a technical exercise, to practice certain scoring techniques? And what’s wrong with doing that? Why does every composition in this style have to be equal to the best work of JW? There’s this attitude around here of “no one should even attempt to write in this style unless they can rival JW.” Which is just ridiculous, in my opinion. There’s plenty of room for everything else.


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## Erick - BVA

Brendon Williams said:


> “no one should even attempt to write in this style unless they can rival JW.” Which is just ridiculous, in my opinion. There’s plenty of room for everything else.



That's not my contention at all. And people can do whatever they want. I just think we should all try to find our own voice. That's just my personal feeling. No salt.


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## Brendon Williams

Sibelius19 said:


> That's not my contention at all. And people can do whatever they want. I just think we should all try to find out own voice. That's just my personal feeling. No salt.



Absolutely! Most people want to find their own voice. But usually, an important part of getting to that point is learning from (and imitating) the best.


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## Erick - BVA

Brendon Williams said:


> Absolutely! Most people want to find their own voice. But usually, an important part of getting to that point is learning from (and imitating) the best.


Can't argue with you there. To be clear, I had no problem with the original piece of music. It's just not my style. But it was extremely well done.


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## Tanuj Tiku

DarkestShadow said:


> I wouldn't need that, but I actually do remember 2 main themes/motifs. And the string melody from around 1:27 minute onwards... it will never leave my head!
> The rest is to complex to remember for me, which is not at all a bad thing.



I really enjoyed listening to this. Great piece of music!

However, if you love this string melody/style/orchestration - you need to listen to ET!


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## Consona

Brendon Williams said:


> Maybe sometimes people just want to have fun shredding? That’s essentially what I hear in this piece @DarkestShadow shared, and I for one had a blast listening to it! And even if you hated it (which I could totally understand, it’s ridiculously over-orchestrated and flowery at times — like someone might complain about shredding on guitar) — why would anyone go in expecting it to rival the best work of John Williams, arguably the best composer of our time? It’s a library track under a pseudonym for crying out loud.


Did you read the thread? Those things were addressed already. Plus nobody, afaik, hated the piece.



Brendon Williams said:


> And anyway, how do we know this was even intended to be anything other than a technical exercise, to practice certain scoring techniques? And what’s wrong with doing that? Why does every composition in this style have to be equal to the best work of JW? There’s this attitude around here of “no one should even attempt to write in this style unless they can rival JW.” Which is just ridiculous, in my opinion. There’s plenty of room for everything else.


If this is an exercise than I think some criticism is the most valuable thing one can get. Of course noone is obligated to pay attention to some nobody from an internet forum, but comments were made I stand behind what I've said. And none of it was meant as a personal attack or anything. Just a candid IMO.

As far as I'm concerned, next time don't write anything like "totally amazing JW style piece" and I won't get triggered.  Which does not mean I won't comment. The piece has flaws, IMO, and so some of us pointed at that. Even you say it's just some orchestral shredding... But that nonetheless shows the skill of the composer who wrote that. And now imagine it was really meant as a showcase for potential customers like @NoamL suggested...

And I agree it's over-orchestrated. But I wouldn't say it's flowery, just uncontrolled at times. I'd like to hear it after some revisions.



DarkestShadow said:


> Goodness... the action parts in JW's Love Pledge sound so random to me...


Yet all the parts are connected. Give it another listen(s) and pay attention to what every instrument section is doing. Yes, there are some chaotic passages but they are not random. Shame is the prequels editing was not done when the music was composed. So better go listen to Battle of Yavin or Battle of Endor.
Or you know who has insanely good fluent battle music? Horner in the second and third Star Trek. But since we were talking about the controlled "chaos", Williams is the way to go.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Battle of Yardin is hard to listen to for me because of the old recording... and 
that part may be one of the most unpleasant musical moments I've heard in a piece...
I mean... how did the players not die holding this long note?  Deafening.

And after that it feels like 2 pieces playing at the same time for a bit...

And I hate the part from 5:55 onwards. Partially recording, partially writing. Painful!!

7:45 onwards - are you joking? Painful... 

8:11 onwards - more static than bad trailer music

But hey man, it's just me.  Already suspected I'm not gonna be a JW fan any time soon. I prefer Thomas Bergersen for controlled chaotic writing, even though he has just a few pieces that would qualify. I can remember every single part about his "Battle of Dark vs Light" for instance.


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## Simon Ravn

Those parts of the first SW album isn't my cup of tea either. I know you have no love for Jurassic Park but "High Wire Stunts" (I think thats the track title) is one of my favourite Williams action tracks. Also "The Flying Car" from Harry Potter.


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## Consona

DarkestShadow said:


> Battle of Yardin


Man you made me giggle so much. 

Look, I'm not saying you must like Williams' music. And some things you wrote about the piece... ok, it's your way you perceive it. Maybe in time you'll change your opinion, maybe not, no hard feelings.

Just be sure Bergensen or Lasker are nowhere near as good at writing controlled chaos as Williams. He's mad good at that.

So if you don't like his action scores, but still want to listen to masterfully done ones, try that Horner I recommended. Way more orderly, yet the structure is still impressive. The orchestration is very clear and efficient, it has really good themes, it's just fantastic.



All those loud bombastic Mission Impossible Fallout trendy scores have nothing on this gem. Shame we don't have composers who control the musical development as these old-school-ish guys anymore.


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## Kent

DarkestShadow said:


> Battle of Yardin is hard to listen to for me because of the old recording... and
> that part may be one of the most unpleasant musical moments I've heard in a piece...
> I mean... how did the players not die holding this long note?  Deafening.
> 
> And after that it feels like 2 pieces playing at the same time for a bit...
> 
> And I hate the part from 5:55 onwards. Partially recording, partially writing. Painful!!
> 
> 7:45 onwards - are you joking? Painful...
> 
> 8:11 onwards - more static than bad trailer music
> 
> But hey man, it's just me.  Already suspected I'm not gonna be a JW fan any time soon. I prefer Thomas Bergersen for controlled chaotic writing, even though he has just a few pieces that would qualify. I can remember every single part about his "Battle of Dark vs Light" for instance.



Ahh you’ve just reminded me of one of the reasons why I think this is the best Star Wars soundtrack of them all - so raw and gritty! (Though I also love the lighter grittiness of V and VI, especially in the brass.)


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## Soundlex

Consona said:


> So if you don't like his action scores, but still want to listen to masterfully done ones, try that Horner I recommended. Way more orderly, yet the structure is still impressive. The orchestration is very clear and efficient, it has really good themes, it's just fantastic.
> 
> 
> 
> All those loud bombastic Mission Impossible Fallout trendy scores has nothing on this gem. Shame we don't have composers who control the musical development as these old-school-ish guys anymore.





Wonderful score yes, and his soundtrack for Aliens was also incredible...


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## KMA

Jeeeeeeeez, this is a tough room.


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## Consona

Honestly, I wish the author submitted this piece into this year's Mike Verta's Unleashed Masterclass.


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## AlexanderSchiborr

But guys  Don´t smash your heads on this topic too hard here, it is still music, not what the nuclear launch codes are


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## teammwrp

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> But guys  Don´t smash your heads on this topic too hard here, it is still music, not what the nuclear launch codes are


...as far as we know


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## clisma

DarkestShadow said:


> And after that it feels like 2 pieces playing at the same time for a bit...
> 
> And I hate the part from 5:55 onwards. Partially recording, partially writing. Painful!!
> 
> 7:45 onwards - are you joking? Painful...
> 
> 8:11 onwards - more static than bad trailer music



Yikes. Don't forget this music was written to serve the specific purposes of the film. It is not meant to stand alone. We are taking it out of context. I'm no huge fan of SW, though I appreciate JW and won't pretend to be impartial, but really, this is good writing, mate.



DarkestShadow said:


> But hey man, it's just me.  Already suspected I'm not gonna be a JW fan any time soon. I prefer Thomas Bergersen for controlled chaotic writing, even though he has just a few pieces that would qualify. I can remember every single part about his "Battle of Dark vs Light" for instance.



I hope it IS just you.


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## BenG

Thansk for sharing! Kind of reminds me of Thomas Bergensen


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## NoamL

KMA said:


> Jeeeeeeeez, this is a tough room.



If only some of these people posted with their real names. Then Mr. Wallfisch could contact them to see if they give composition lessons.


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## Kony

DarkestShadow said:


> Already suspected I'm not gonna be a JW fan any time soon.


I'm slightly confused - your thread title says "Amazing JW style piece" but you then go on to say you're not a fan of JW...? Is it that you like the style but not the composer? I'll leave that with you as this thread seems to be going in a baitey direction - ie yet another pro/anti JW debate.


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## SimonCharlesHanna

Kony said:


> I'm slightly confused - your thread title says "Amazing JW style piece" but you then go on to say you're not a fan of JW...? Is it that you like the style but not the composer? I'll leave that with you as this thread seems to be going in a baitey direction - ie yet another pro/anti JW debate.


*starts fire*
*leaves*


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## Grim_Universe

NoamL said:


> If only some of these people posted with their real names. Then Mr. Wallfisch could contact them to see if they give composition lessons.


Noam, I respect you very much as a person and as an intelligent man, but you don't have to be a football player to say that somebody plays bad. A lot of us accustomed to the best music available (JW, endless classical masters, etc.), and while we can't recreate it, we can definitely judge if it was recreated professionally and tastefully by somebody else.
Speaking about the topic, I feel that old school bombastic music dies not only because we lack skill to recreate it, but because we don't want to recreate it anymore: it does not meet the spirit of our time. We feel like we have to be VERY selective and even simplistic about our themes and music.


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## NoamL

Grim_Universe said:


> Noam, I respect you very much as a person and as an intelligent man, but you don't have to be a football player to say that somebody plays bad. A lot of us accustomed to the best music available (JW, endless classical masters, etc.), and while we can't recreate it, we can definitely judge if it was recreated professionally and tastefully by somebody else.
> Speaking about the topic, I feel that old school bombastic music dies not only because we lack skill to recreate it, but because we don't want to recreate it anymore: it does not meet the spirit of our time. We feel like we have to be VERY selective and even simplistic about our themes and music.



I would never disagree with someone if they said they didn't like the music. That is their opinion.

When they say things like: "often random," "he's in over his head," "completely lacks" the "structural" merits of a JW piece, *"a rather bumpy exercise," *THAT is when I get to ask "Can y'all write anything even CLOSE to this?"

This piece is really well done. Also, what I like about it is that it has the composer's own voice. It doesn't sound like a Williams imitation or a Silvestri imitation. It just sounds like a complex orchestral showpiece from someone who has absorbed a lot of different influences (Williams for sure, but what about Prokofiev!?) and is creating their own thing.


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## SimonCharlesHanna

NoamL said:


> I would never disagree with someone if they said they didn't like the music. That is their opinion.
> 
> When they say things like: "often random," "he's in over his head," "completely lacks" the "structural" merits of a JW piece, *"a rather bumpy exercise," *THAT is when I get to ask "Can y'all write anything even CLOSE to this?"
> 
> This piece is really well done. Also, what I like about it is that it has the composer's own voice. It doesn't sound like a Williams imitation or a Silvestri imitation. It just sounds like a complex orchestral showpiece from someone who has absorbed a lot of different influences (Williams for sure, but what about Prokofiev!?) and is creating their own thing.


Yeah but how much of that was the composer and how much was the orchestrator?

See strip all the bells and whistles away and you're left with uninspired music content.


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## NoamL

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Yeah but how much of that was the composer and how much was the orchestrator


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## Kony

NoamL said:


>


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## SimonCharlesHanna

NoamL said:


>


fantastic rebuttal.


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## NoamL

honest question, please answer yes or no, do you believe this piece was orchestrated by someone other than the composer.


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## teammwrp

NoamL said:


> honest question, please answer yes or no, do you believe this piece was orchestrated by someone other than the composer.


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## patrick76




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## Kony

NoamL said:


> honest question, please answer yes or no, do you believe this piece was orchestrated by someone other than the composer.


It would be hard to prove one way or another - but Timothy Williams has done a chunk of orchestrating for Wallfisch among others.

EDIT: Not saying that's the case here, just saying it's not unheard of


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## patrick76

This Williams/ Wallfisch thread just got real.


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## Kony

patrick76 said:


> This Williams/ Wallfisch thread just got real.


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## clisma

Kony, love that you keep bringing up Airport! Awesome score by Elmer Fudd.


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## Kony

clisma said:


> Kony, love that you keep bringing up Airport! Awesome score by Elmer Fudd.


LOL


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## Lionel Schmitt

Consona said:


> Honestly, I wish the author submitted this piece into this year's Mike Verta's Unleashed Masterclass.


There is a way LOL...


Kony said:


> I'm slightly confused - your thread title says "Amazing JW style piece" but you then go on to say you're not a fan of JW...? *Is it that you like the style but not the composer?* I'll leave that with you as this thread seems to be going in a baitey direction - ie yet another pro/anti JW debate.


Yes and no. I do like John Williams and love some of his pieces - but I'm not a *fan* overall, at least not to the extent others are. And don't have to be fan to recognize and like his style.
Could've left it off the title, but it was just so obvious.

It's not a debate for me. I just gave my personal opinion about something that was mentioned as objectively better than what I like.
If anything this thread shows how subjective perception and So Pro and Anti JW doesn't even make sense... especially since I'm on neither camp.


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## Lionel Schmitt

patrick76 said:


> This Williams/ Wallfisch thread just got real.


What? Who said BW is better than JW? Quote?


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## Kony

DarkestShadow said:


> What? Who said BW is better than JW? Quote?


Nobody said that - see my post further up on this page, reference to Timothy Williams


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## Lionel Schmitt

Kony said:


> Nobody said that - see my post further up on this page, reference to Timothy Williams


Well then it's not a Williams vs Wallfisch thread. Case closed.
No idea what Timothy Williams has to do with it.


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## Kony

DarkestShadow said:


> Well then it's not a Williams vs Wallfisch thread. Case closed.
> No idea what Timothy Williams has to do with it.


No offence, but this is your thread - might be an idea if you actually read all the posts first....


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## Lionel Schmitt

Kony said:


> No offence, but this is your thread - might be an idea if you actually read all the posts first....


I think I did but I'm not interested in weird turn it took, so I'm not keen to check. Since you bring up nothing substancial (whether it has been posted already or not) I assume there is nothing... whatever there may be. 
Well, technically it is a Williams vs Wallfisch thread, after some started comparisons - but not really since noone seems to claim that BW is superior to JW, so there is hardly a "vs".


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## Consona

DarkestShadow said:


> after some started comparisons



Are you aware that it was you who started this thread with a title "Totally amazing JW style piece". And because of that title some people started with comparisons. Not that surprising, I'd say.

And even without that title some people would say there are some weird parts in the writing...


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## patrick76

DarkestShadow said:


> What? Who said BW is better than JW? Quote?


No one. I just thought it would be funny if the thread took a heated turn considering the topic. 

But, I guess for the sake of entertainment, I will say that BW is unequivocally, empirically, obviously, WAY better than JW could ever dream to be. Furthermore, JW is bald, which I feel has a detrimental effect on his composition process.


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## Lionel Schmitt

Consona said:


> Are you aware that it was you who started this thread with a title "Totally amazing JW style piece". And because of that title some people started with comparisons. Not that surprising, I'd say.
> 
> And even without that title some people would say there are some weird parts in the writing...


Just because something is in the *style* of Williams doesn't mean it is reasonable to compare it (in it's technical quality) to his actual work. Didn't say "totally amazing piece by the next John Williams".
People mentioning weird parts isn't of concern for me.


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## NoamL

Well this thread has taken a silly turn. I'm only posting again to say:



Grim_Universe said:


> Noam, I respect you very much



I wanted to clarify that I respect you & your work a great deal as well!

and:



> I feel that old school bombastic music dies not only because we lack skill to recreate it, but because we don't want to recreate it anymore: it does not meet the spirit of our time. We feel like we have to be VERY selective and even simplistic about our themes and music.



I think this used to be the case, especially 2003-2016, but maybe things are slowly changing in Hollywood again. I hear more and more soundtracks that are about complex developments of themes with a rich harmonic language, and less about creating unique sounds using synths & sound design. It is too early to say "the pendulum is swinging back the other direction," but I think in the future there will be more opportunities for that kind of music. But, if that time ever comes, you're right that it will have its own "spirit of the time," it won't just be a copy of what JW wrote in the '70s through '90s. I guess that the new harmonic language, even when it becomes more complex, will have less influence from 20th century jazz than JW's language, and possibly more influence from late 20th century classical composers?


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## Grim_Universe

@NoamL I agree with you, Noam. Deversity is the thing we asking for. Harmonic language can become complex and rich and everything, but those unnecessary decorations, just like in the Ben Lasker's demo, have to go away. They are not about our time, I feel. You can be complex and interesting, like Debussy in his nocturnes, but not to overextend with the flush stuff. In other words, JW style (imitative JW-style things with a lot of movement without any reason. Movement for movement in other words) by the most part is not the path to go, I feel. Well, maybe it's just me.


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## Soundlex

Consona said:


> Really? The theme at 1:29, where I started the video, is very easily memorable, IMO. I'm not saying it's Harry Potter or Force theme, but it's far from a bland or generic melody.
> 
> 
> While Jurrasic Park score is amazing, honestly how many people can compose something as wonderful as this:
> 
> 
> (Hint: Zero, null, nought, nil, nobody. )
> 
> I agree on Zimmer's approach, I like how he tailors the sound very much to the feeling and concept of a given film. Plus he can compose really good themes. So while his compositions are not Williams/Horner/Goldsmith fluent/agile/sophisticated, he can still grab your ear and emotions. I mean, Willams' Superman is a timeless classic, yet Zimmer's What Are You Going To Do When You Are Not Saving the World? hits me right in the feels more than Williams, honestly.



After 24h of singing Mike's theme in my head, I take it back...it's easily memorable!


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## Consona

Soundlex said:


> After 24h of singing Mike's theme in my head, I take it back...it's easily memorable!


Hehe. You know what theme of his is better? The one from the Adventure Strings demo.



Plus again some very nice Williams/-like moments there. Most importantly, check out the structure, it's way easier here because we can see the midi. It's so good. But the Race with a full orchestra... Disney should really call him after John is done with SW next year.  But Mike probably wouldn't do it, for various reasons... 

Just for the record, Mike has a 5 hour lesson where he shows how he composed the piece.


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## AlexRuger

NoamL said:


> I think this used to be the case, especially 2003-2016, but maybe things are slowly changing in Hollywood again. I hear more and more soundtracks that are about complex developments of themes with a rich harmonic language, and less about creating unique sounds using synths & sound design. It is too early to say "the pendulum is swinging back the other direction," but I think in the future there will be more opportunities for that kind of music. But, if that time ever comes, you're right that it will have its own "spirit of the time," it won't just be a copy of what JW wrote in the '70s through '90s. I guess that the new harmonic language, even when it becomes more complex, will have less influence from 20th century jazz than JW's language, and possibly more influence from late 20th century classical composers?



I fear reviving this weird thread, but I think this is an interesting point and it prompted a thought:

Perhaps the (very broadly speaking) "John Williams style" is going the way of most things in music: it dominates, becomes seen as "old fashioned" or "of its time," and then comes back and finds its place in the greater pantheon of Music? Think the electric guitar (dominance for 40 years, then waned, and has now settled in to being just another tool in the tool box), synths (dominance in the 80s, waned in the 90s-2000s, experienced a hipster revival, is settling in to being just another tool in the tool box), etc. I know I'm speaking super broadly, but of course that's the only way one can speak about broad trends.

I think the reintroduction of Star Wars to pop culture (and generally 80s culture -- think Ben's "It" score for another great example) is giving the "JW/Silvestri/whatever big orchestra" style its hipster synth moment, so to speak. It won't last -- shit, its resurgence _pales _in comparison to the parallel synth revival -- but it won't ever die either. It'll settle in and be called for when it's needed, as it probably should be.

And to be honest, I don't think a resurgence of interesting harmony or color or whatever has anything to do with "wanting to bring back that JW sound," or an appreciation for the complexity or the technique or whatever else gets us composers hard. I think it has more to do with the fact that even the most tasteless producers get bored of the same old gritty boring chuggy-chug-chug bullshit, because (surprise!) most HZ copycats were just that, copycats, and by definition the sound began to take on more and more baggage like a JPEG that's been downloaded and re-uploaded a thousand times (this has nothing to do with HZ, but purely has to do with the nature of being asked to copy something...the same thing happened with the JW sound, which is [again, very broadly speaking] what paved the way _for _the HZ sound); plus they probably got tired of armchair YouTube philosophers pointing out how "temp tracks are ruining film music" and the associated smugness gained by a sizable minority of their audience, which had already reached the critical mass of actually affecting their considerations when creating and marketing the film. And the 80s were coming back anyways, so fuck it, _bring on that soaring LSO, son!_

I think that the anxiety that often swirls around discussions about the JW style going away can be brought back to the fact that it's always said by people who grew up on the sound, got into the field for the love of that sound, and Wanted To Grow Up And Be Just Like Johnny Williams. But that's what happens to literally everyone who gets into a creative field because they really, really like a _part _of that field and just want to do _that, _versus those who arrive at an art medium for the love of art and the medium itself: by the time they're old enough to kick the ball, it's 30 years to the left of them. It's not unique to film scoring at all. Ask Wynton Marsalis or Greta Van Fleet (whose name I couldn't remember and found by Googling "Led Zeppelin ripoff band" -- they were the first, like, _eighty_ results).

I don't fear for composers' inability to compose in that style when it's needed, either. I hear that a lot but it seems rather unfounded, considering the fact that, for example, chamber ensembles playing period-correct instruments exist (sure, it's kind of the musical equivalent of LARPing, but hey, chops are chops, and there will always be geeks -- I use that term lovingly -- who see the value in keeping something alive past its "time"). It comes across more as an attempt to rationalize why the thing they always wanted to do Needs To Be Relevant Now, rather than a true fear that the craft required will somehow go extinct, and betrays a tone-deafness to the realities of this career path that automatically disqualifies them of ever getting to Be Just Like Johnny Williams anyway, regardless of chops.

(Please don't hit me with your bad juju, thread)


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## Kent

AlexRuger said:


> I fear reviving this weird thread, but I think this is an interesting point and it prompted a thought:
> 
> Perhaps the (very broadly speaking) "John Williams style" is going the way of most things in music: it dominates, becomes seen as "old fashioned" or "of its time," and then comes back and finds its place in the greater pantheon of Music? Think the electric guitar (dominance for 40 years, then waned, and has now settled in to being just another tool in the tool box), synths (dominance in the 80s, waned in the 90s-2000s, experienced a hipster revival, is settling in to being just another tool in the tool box), etc. I know I'm speaking super broadly, but of course that's the only way one can speak about broad trends.
> 
> I think the reintroduction of Star Wars to pop culture (and generally 80s culture -- think Ben's "It" score for another great example) is giving the "JW/Silvestri/whatever big orchestra" style its hipster synth moment, so to speak. It won't last -- shit, its resurgence _pales _in comparison to the parallel synth revival -- but it won't ever die either. It'll settle in and be called for when it's needed, as it probably should be.
> 
> And to be honest, I don't think a resurgence of interesting harmony or color or whatever has anything to do with "wanting to bring back that JW sound," or an appreciation for the complexity or the technique or whatever else gets us composers hard. I think it has more to do with the fact that even the most tasteless producers get bored of the same old gritty boring chuggy-chug-chug bullshit, because (surprise!) most HZ copycats were just that, copycats, and by definition the sound began to take on more and more baggage like a JPEG that's been downloaded and re-uploaded a thousand times (this has nothing to do with HZ, but purely has to do with the nature of being asked to copy something); plus they probably got tired of armchair YouTube philosophers pointing out how "temp tracks are ruining film music" and the associated smugness gained by a sizable minority of their audience, which had already reached the critical mass of actually affecting their considerations when creating and marketing the film. And the 80s were coming back anyways, so fuck it, _bring on that soaring LSO, son!_
> 
> I think that the anxiety that often swirls around discussions about the JW style going away can be brought back to the fact that it's always said by people who grew up on the sound, got into the field for the love of that sound, and Wanted To Grow Up And Be Just Like Johnny Williams. But that's what happens to literally everyone who gets into a creative field because they really, really like a _part _of that field and just want to do _that, _versus those who arrive at an art medium for the love of art and the medium itself: by the time they're old enough to kick the ball, it's 30 years to the left of them. It's not unique to film scoring at all. Ask Wynton Marsalis or Greta Van Fleet (whose name I couldn't remember and found by Googling "Led Zeppelin ripoff band" -- they were the first, like, _eighty_ results).
> 
> I don't fear for composers' inability to compose in that style when it's needed, either. I hear that a lot but it seems rather unfounded, considering the fact that, for example, chamber ensembles playing period-correct instruments exist (sure, it's kind of the musical equivalent of LARPing, but hey, chops are chops, and there will always be geeks -- I use that term lovingly -- who see the value in keeping something alive past its "time"). It comes across more as an attempt to rationalize why the thing they always wanted to do Needs To Be Relevant Now, rather than a true fear that the craft required will somehow go extinct, and betrays a tone-deafness to the realities of this career path that automatically disqualifies them of ever getting to Be Just Like Johnny Williams anyway, regardless of chops.
> 
> (Please don't hit me with your bad juju, thread)


In a sense, the “JW” sound is a rebirth of the “Korngold” sound which was a very last gasp of the “post-romantic Teutonic” sound... so people trying to rehash JW are continuing a long tradition of borrowing from a fairly specific (and totally awesome) style. It’s a long-standing musical tradition in and of itself


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## NoamL

AlexRuger said:


> more and more baggage like a JPEG that's been downloaded and re-uploaded a thousand times (this has nothing to do with HZ, but purely has to do with the nature of being asked to copy something)





AlexRuger said:


> I think that the anxiety that often swirls around discussions about the JW style going away can be brought back to the fact that it's always said by people who grew up on the sound, got into the field for the love of that sound, and Wanted To Grow Up And Be Just Like Johnny Williams.



Totally agree with these two ideas Alex.

I think the future synthesis is inevitable. But regarding your second idea, the obstacle to the synthesis right now is, I believe, the people who champion "bringing back" the old music want it to ALL come back TOGETHER, that is, resurrected in every facet. Which will never happen. You will never have a score with that harmonic sophistication AND the rich orchestration AND the motivic manipulation/reharmonization AND the big-soaring melody attitude, it's just too much because it adds up to being an antique, a remake.

You mentioned Silvestri, what an interesting last few years he's had! I think that he has deliberately achieved, what you call a "hipster moment," of his own musical style from the 80s. He has some of the most beloved scores of the MCU (Doyle and Mothersbaugh also knocked it out of the park though!). In those recent scores his harmonic language is very simple. Minor third modulations for action, and that D Eb G Ab pyramidically-building brass gesture he always does for tension stuff, and he has a particular harmonic progression for sad/emotional cues that he's been reusing for years. But his orchestration is great, he's championing trumpets and woodwinds in scores, he's turning in scores to some of the biggest movies _of all time_ that are purely orchestra in a room. If he did stuff like _Back To The Future_ it probably wouldn't fly even for Marvel. But he's able to bring it back partially, or I guess in his case, _continue_ it partially.

Jackman is another composer who is really leading the way with the "pick and choose what you want to bring back" apporach. Jumanji, _amazing_ orchestration and big bold melodies, but he keeps the harmonic language fairly simple (for him). _Wreck It Ralph_ and _Big Hero 6_, some really sophisticated harmonic language that interweaves strong themes, but he leavens it with all kinds of synth work that dispels any feeling of a resurrected 1980s score.

I gotta listen to Wallfisch's _IT_ on your recommendation!!


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## Consona

AlexRuger said:


> I fear reviving this weird thread






AlexRuger said:


> I don't fear for composers' inability to compose in that style when it's needed, either.


I do.

I was recently listening to his Potter scores to compare them with the HP scores of the other composers. Honestly, the difference is rather shocking (don't want to sound like some drama queen  but I think that's the best way to express my feelings about the whole thing).

What I'm talking about is not some "sound", "JW sound" or "old-school sound" or whatever, it's about compositions themselves.

If you think composers can do "Williams" when it's called for, just post some examples when they do so. I'd be really interested.


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## AlexRuger

Consona said:


> I do.
> 
> I was recently listening to his Potter scores to compare them with the HP scores of the other composers. Honestly, the difference is rather shocking (don't want to sound like some drama queen  but I think that's the best way to express my feelings about the whole thing).
> 
> What I'm talking about is not some "sound", "JW sound" or "old-school sound" or whatever, it's about compositions themselves.
> 
> If you think composers can do "Williams" when it's called for, just post some examples when they do so. I'd be really interested.



You're comparing apples and oranges. Those directors didn't call for the JW sound. They wanted something different, end of story. Doyle and Desplat in particular are absolutely fantastic composers -- check out more of their scores and you'll see.

Powell's "Solo" score is a great example of someone writing on JW's level.


----------

