# Triple sensor in Doepfer keyboards?



## spacepluk (Jun 12, 2020)

Hi there,
I'm looking to replace my VPC1 with something smaller/lighter and the obvious choices are the Doepfer LMK4+ and the Studiologic SL88 Grand.

Does anybody know if the TP40GH in the Doepfers have triple sensor?
Thanks!


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## spacepluk (Jun 13, 2020)

Here's the answer just in case it helps anybody in the future:






Tried the new NI S88 Mark 2. Keyboard still doesn't feel good.


What about this video? That's awful.




vi-control.net


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2020)

Hi there -- I use a Doepfer LMK4+ and it's pretty good. Has enough sliders and the wheels are good.

If you can, I suggest you try them in person. I tested a number of them before choosing this one -- some of the keyboards are less even than others. I use it all day, every day, so it's sturdy. Manual is pretty dense and a slog, but it's accurate.

I don't know about the triple sensor question.


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## mybadmemory (Jun 13, 2020)

I bought a Nord Piano 3 party because i wanted the triple sensor TP40 keybed, but unfortunately it only sends midi velocity up to 100 making it useless as a midi controller. I do love the triple sensor TP40 for playing its internal sounds though.


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> I bought a Nord Piano 3 party because i wanted the triple sensor TP40 keybed, but unfortunately it only sends midi velocity up to 100 making it useless as a midi controller. I do love the triple sensor TP40 for playing its internal sounds though.



Wow -- there is no way to adjust that ceiling? If you pore through the manual? Seems like an odd limitation, given Nord's generally superb quality.


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## mybadmemory (Jun 13, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Wow -- there is no way to adjust that ceiling? If you pore through the manual? Seems like an odd limitation, given Nord's generally superb quality.



Nope. It’s a bug they’ve acknowledged and said they would fix in a firmware update, that sadly never happened. By now the NP3 will most probably never get another update since it’s replaced by the NP4 and NG. It’s annoying since the official specification states that it should send 1-127.


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Nope. It’s a bug they’ve acknowledged and said they would fix in a firmware update, that sadly never happened. By now the NP3 will most probably never get another update since it’s replaced by the NP4 and NG. It’s annoying since the official specification states that it should send 1-127.



That is really surprising -- sorry bruv. I can imagine what a disappointment that is.


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## spacepluk (Jun 13, 2020)

@mybadmemory Wow, that sucks :(

@JohnG thanks for chiming in! I read some of your remarks about the Doepfer before I posted this and I was actually wondering if you still had it 

How does it work for fast single note repetitions without the third sensor? Not that I'm going to do that all the time but I think it's a good benchmark for how responsive it is, and the VPC-1 was pretty good at this.


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## jononotbono (Jun 13, 2020)

The LMK4+ has dual sensor. Not Triple Sensor.


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## JohnG (Jun 13, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> How does it work for fast single note repetitions without the third sensor? Not that I'm going to do that all the time but I think it's a good benchmark for how responsive it is, and the VPC-1 was pretty good at this.



The action is decent; I have had it a while and I don't have any trouble executing anything. Although I have played the piano since I was young, I'm originally a wind player and a singer. Accordingly, you might want to look for the opinion of a serious piano player if that's your background.


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## emilio_n (Jun 14, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> @mybadmemory Wow, that sucks :(
> 
> @JohnG thanks for chiming in! I read some of your remarks about the Doepfer before I posted this and I was actually wondering if you still had it
> 
> How does it work for fast single note repetitions without the third sensor? Not that I'm going to do that all the time but I think it's a good benchmark for how responsive it is, and the VPC-1 was pretty good at this.


I am just looking for a new midi keyboard and 3 of my options are de LMK4+, VPC1 and Studiologic Grand (The other option is the loved-hated Komplete s88 MKII)

Can I ask why you want to change the VPC1? Just because of the size? I read that the VPC1 doesn't have aftertouch and I am not sure if this is a very important point to take in mind.

Thanks and sorry to add extra questions here.


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## spacepluk (Jun 14, 2020)

I'm pretty much looking at the same options at the moment so I'm happy to brainstorm about it :D

The reason to change the VPC1 is mostly its size, the thing is huge! :D It's not a big deal if you don't have to move it a lot. But lately I'm moving apartments very frequently and I've needed help moving it every time.

The other reason is that I want to have a nice action when I'm facing the computer. With the VPC1 you have to put it on the side (what I did) or have a desk setup that will most likely be uncomfortable for other tasks.

The VPC1 feels really great though, no complaints on that front. But I'm a guitarist first and I don't really care about super realistic piano action. I just want something that feels nice and gives me enough control over dynamics so that I can play expressively. The VPC1 excels at this but is not practical for me at the moment. Maybe in the future when I don't have to move so much I'll get a VPC2 😅 ... but then if I'm not going to move it I might as well get a second hand acoustic upright...

FWIW I have aftertouch on a (KK S61 mk2) and I barely use it. And the times I do use it I'm not doing anything that can't be done using other means. If you decide that this is important for you there have been reports about the Studiologics having laggy/low resolution AT output.

I've been considering the KK S88 as well but for my purposes the NKS features aren't worthy of that prime real estate in the center. I would rather have the computer's keyboard and mouse closer to the keys.


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## BGvanRens (Jun 14, 2020)

LMK4+ user here as well as a former Kawai MP8II user..they keybed feels lighter and more plastic obviously compared to the wooden keys of the Kawai. The win factor for me was the shape and I don't even move it. It's mostly a preference regarding PC mouse and keyboard positioning. Ergonomics. I did consider the VPC1 at some point, but I felt like it would be superb at piano playing, but a bit to heavy perhaps for something like a Hammond.

Personally I feel like midi controllers are something personal. Though I don't like the velocity 'bug' in the Doepfer, on the black keys that is, and while you can limit them..it's not the same. If I want 125, I want 125 and not be capped at 120 or something. I have gotten used to it and for me personally there isn't any alternative that fits my demands/needs any better.


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## emilio_n (Jun 14, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> I'm pretty much looking at the same options at the moment so I'm happy to brainstorm about it :D
> 
> The reason to change the VPC1 is mostly its size, the thing is huge! :D It's not a big deal if you don't have to move it a lot. But lately I'm moving apartments very frequently and I've needed help moving it every time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts!!!
In my case, I really don't care about the size as I don't plan to move too much. I have a lot of Kontakt libraries with a lot of key switches and zones, like the Sonokinetic ones, so I thought the light guide will be a nice plus to me. I listened so bad reviews about the keybed of KKS88 that is the only thing stoped me to buy it as I think I will be very happy with the rest of the functionalities. But now with big companies leaving the Kontakt environment (OT and Spitfire) maybe NKS is not a very important thing for the future.

I do not consider myself a pianist, but is the instrument I learned a long time ago. 
For your case... I think the LMK4+ could be great. Not too big and for sure easy to transport with the case incorporated. 

I am using at this moment the M-Audio Code 61, that have nice keys for what it is, but the move to 88 keys with hammer action will be a big improvement with any of these options.


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## jononotbono (Jun 14, 2020)

If you haven’t tried one, try one before buying. I was obsessed with the idea of buying one (hence why I know it’s dual sensor and not triple sensor)... then I used one for 6 months. Now I know... it’s just a keyboard.


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## spacepluk (Jun 14, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Now I know... it’s just a keyboard.



But is it *a nice* keyboard? 

Thanks everybody for all the input. I'm not super worried about dual/triple sensor as long as it works fine and it seems that's the case. I might even like it more than the VPC1 if it's slightly lighter.

So, I guess it will come down to what pops up first for a good price in the second hand market.


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## jononotbono (Jun 14, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> But is it *a nice* keyboard?
> 
> Thanks everybody for all the input. I'm not super worried about dual/triple sensor as long as it works fine and it seems that's the case. I might even like it more than the VPC1 if it's slightly lighter.
> 
> So, I guess it will come down to what pops up first for a good price in the second hand market.



Well, I’m not bad mouthing it. Just maybe realise this thing isn’t as magical as you may or may not build up in your head. I know, I did that for about 2 years. Finally tried it, used it and realised it wasn’t what I thought it would be. Still a nice keyboard but it’s expensive for what it is.

Man, let’s just be honest here. The reason why 99% of people use one is because HZ uses one 😂

Except for @JohnG. He had one before HZ did. 

Definitely a worthy contender if you wanna spend that money but don’t fool yourself into thinking those faders don’t feel like absolute shite (wobbly as hell). The Wheels are very nice though and when you get kicked out of your house at least it’s in a flight case haha


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## spacepluk (Jun 14, 2020)

hahaha, that's a good point :D

I'm actually only looking at buying second hand. I don't think I would be considering the Doepfers if I was buying new, the Studiologics seems like a much better deal.

I see there are a lot of dirt cheap SL990Pros around here... I might try to frankenstein the TP40GH keybed into a SL88 Studio 🤔


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## JohnG (Jun 14, 2020)

it's weird how many otherwise good keyboards have something stupid about them. 

Stupid list:
1. No wheels at all. 
2. Substitute a cheap-feeling joystick for wheels.
3. Cheap wheels that almost immediately start to send random CC information when you're not touching them.
4. A million buttons -- why??
5. Lots of great features (wheels, drum pad, faders) but everything flimsy -- for $500.

Honestly, I'd pay a lot more than I did for the Doepfer to get everything rock-solid, with really good faders and (conceivably) a better keyboard, though the Doepfer is pretty good on that. 

On the other hand, the Doepfer wasn't that expensive and it has never broken or done anything you wouldn't want. Wheels are good and there are dozens of velocity curves, plus the ability to adjust the sensitivity of the black keys independently of the white ones (which turns out to be very helpful). Manual seems transliterated from the German, with all that implies, but otherwise a solid piece of kit that works day in, day out.


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## John R Wilson (Jun 14, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> hahaha, that's a good point :D
> 
> I'm actually only looking at buying second hand. I don't think I would be considering the Doepfers if I was buying new, the Studiologics seems like a much better deal.
> 
> I see there are a lot of dirt cheap SL990Pros around here... I might try to frankenstein the TP40GH keybed into a SL88 Studio 🤔



I have the SL88 Grand. I find that the SL88 has a really nice velocity response and I personally love the Keybed action on it. It is so much better than any other keyboards/midi controllers that I have used previously.


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## JohnG (Jun 14, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> SL88 Grand



But no mod wheel or pitch bend??? I see the joysticks but I'm accustomed to the wheels.


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## John R Wilson (Jun 14, 2020)

JohnG said:


> But no mod wheel or pitch bend??? I see the joysticks but I'm accustomed to the wheels.



I'm not fond of the joysticks on it, but the key-bed action and response is very nice. I've just added a Nektar Panorama P1 to my set up and use the faders on this instead of the joysticks on the SL88.


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## spacepluk (Jun 14, 2020)

It looks like I scored an SL88 Grand for a nice price. I'm curious to see how it feels compared to the VPC1.


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## Gil (Jun 14, 2020)

JohnG said:


> But no mod wheel or pitch bend??? I see the joysticks but I'm accustomed to the wheels.


Hello,
StudioLogic sells an external device for that: https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/mixface/
I've read about falling keys on a few SL88 Grand so it makes me hesitating bewteen the SL88 with MixFace and the "rock-solid" but more expensive Doepfer LM4+...


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## JohnG (Jun 14, 2020)

Gil said:


> I've read about falling keys on a few SL88 Grand so it makes me hesitating bewteen the SL88 with MixFace and the "rock-solid" but more expensive Doepfer LM4+...



IDK the StudioLogic keyboard or the add-on specifically. The Doepfer is fine here, day in, day out. No complaints.

Never wishes me Happy Birthday or recognises my moods, which is somewhat of a let-down, but it's fine for composing.


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## JohnG (Jun 14, 2020)

this looks interesting -- anyone have one?









osmose


Next-gen standalone expressive synthesizer. Add emotion & movement to your music with a simple touch.




www.expressivee.com


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## John R Wilson (Jun 14, 2020)

Gil said:


> Hello,
> StudioLogic sells an external device for that: https://www.studiologic-music.com/products/mixface/
> I've read about falling keys on a few SL88 Grand so it makes me hesitating bewteen the SL88 with MixFace and the "rock-solid" but more expensive Doepfer LM4+...



I've had no issues with my SL88 Grand and no failing keys since getting it. It seems well built and sturdy to me.


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## John R Wilson (Jun 14, 2020)

JohnG said:


> this looks interesting -- anyone have one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This does look really interesting!!


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## spacepluk (Jun 17, 2020)

Hmm, so apparently the TP40W is equivalent to the TP400 and different from the TP40GH... So now I'm not sure what to do 🤦‍♂️

Maybe I'll wait for an LMK4+ to pop up.


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## Gil (Jun 17, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> I've had no issues with my SL88 Grand and no failing keys since getting it. It seems well built and sturdy to me.


Hello,
Thanks for you answer!
How long have you been using it? I've heard keyed and screen problems appear after 2-3 years (and I hope it's not and won't be your case obviously )


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## spacepluk (Jun 18, 2020)

So, I’ve had my first few hours with the SL88 Grand and I’m loving it. If feels a lot faster than the VPC1. It still has some weight to it but the action feels a lot more responsive.

I’ve only played with the default velocity curves and it’s already really good. The aftertouch is ridiculously hard to the point it’s useless, the S61 is a lot better. I’m not sure if I can adjust that, I’ll play with the editor tomorrow and see.

I’m super happy with the change so far


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## emilio_n (Jun 18, 2020)

I am still moving around the Roland A88 MKII, the KK S88 MKII and the SL88 Grand. 
Nice to know that you are happy with the grand. How looks the build quality of the keyboard?


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## JohnG (Jun 18, 2020)

Gil said:


> Hello,
> Thanks for you answer!
> How long have you been using it? I've heard keyed and screen problems appear after 2-3 years (and I hope it's not and won't be your case obviously )



I have had it -- 4 years? 6? I can't remember. No problems with the LCD screen or anything mechanical.

Native Instruments Kontrol?

If I were looking today I'd check out the Native Instruments line, even though it's not integrated with Digital Performer. I'm sure some people will be relieved that it has GarageBand integration...???

But anyway, it seems to have quite a few features that one would want, including "eight touch sensitive knobs." Which I don't really understand and sound dangerous to discuss. One potential drawback if you like to rest your computer keyboard on top in the middle: the NI keyboard has controls and a screen there. Not too crazy about all the lights either. Maybe you can turn them off?


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## John R Wilson (Jun 18, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> I am still moving around the Roland A88 MKII, the KK S88 MKII and the SL88 Grand.
> Nice to know that you are happy with the grand. How looks the build quality of the keyboard?



The KK S88 MKII does have great DAW integration. If you want the DAW Integration, use Komplete Kontrol and are mainly using it for a midi controller then this is a great choice. However, if you are mainly looking for a good key-bed, piano action and velocity response then I'd go with the SL88!! I was deciding between these two not that long ago and in the end I choose the SL88 over the KK S88 MKII because I really liked the piano action and its velocity response and this ended up being more important to me.


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## John R Wilson (Jun 18, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I have had it -- 4 years? 6? I can't remember. No problems with the LCD screen or anything mechanical.
> 
> Native Instruments Kontrol?
> 
> ...



Nope you cant turn the lights off on the Komplete Kontrol MKII keyboards.


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## emilio_n (Jun 18, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> The KK S88 MKII does have great DAW integration. If you want the DAW Integration, use Komplete Kontrol and are mainly using it for a midi controller then this is a great choice. However, if you are mainly looking for a good key-bed, piano action and velocity response then I'd go with the SL88!! I was deciding between these two not that long ago and in the end I choose the SL88 over the KK S88 MKII because I really liked the piano action and its velocity response and this ended up being more important for me.


Thanks, John for your input!
I think the problem that all have if that we want a perfect balance between DAW integration and nice key feeling. the KK S88 will be perfect if the key and the general construction is better. I read here a lot of horror stories about the quality of the product. I am afraid that I will hate the spongy feeling not good to play synths or orchestral instruments, not good to play piano.
I think I will take the same direction and go to SL88 Grand. What fader are you using to control the expression, etc?


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## John R Wilson (Jun 18, 2020)

emilio_n said:


> Thanks, John for your input!
> I think the problem that all have if that we want a perfect balance between DAW integration and nice key feeling. the KK S88 will be perfect if the key and the general construction is better. I read here a lot of horror stories about the quality of the product. I am afraid that I will hate the spongy feeling not good to play synths or orchestral instruments, not good to play piano.
> I think I will take the same direction and go to SL88 Grand. What fader are you using to control the expression, etc?



The keys are definitely much better on the SL88 grand. The Komplete Kontrol is ok for its key-bed but its quite a heavy action and it did have a bit of a spongy feeling when I tested it. The SL88 grand is better for piano playing. 

I'm currently using a Panorama P1 controller. Its got a fair amount of faders that work quite well for expression and modulation and it does have some nice DAW integration with Cubase.


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## emilio_n (Jun 18, 2020)

John R Wilson said:


> The keys are definitely much better on the SL88 grand. The Komplete Kontrol is ok for its key-bed but its quite a heavy action and it did have a bit of a spongy feeling when I tested it. The SL88 grand is better for piano playing.
> 
> I'm currently using a Panorama P1 controller. Its got a fair amount of faders that work quite well for expression and modulation and it does have some nice DAW integration with Cubase.


In my case, the thing is making me have a lot of hesitation is the light guide. I know its not a big deal for a lot of people but I have several libraries with intense use of key switches and keyboard sections so for me is a big plus. But yes, I prefer a better keybed for sure.


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## spacepluk (Jun 19, 2020)

The build quality of the SL88 is excellent. Everything feels high quality and the case is metal. I can't compare directly to the S88 but the S61 I have on top is also very nicely built but it's plastic and when you put pressure or move it around it creaks. Both are nice but the Studiologic feels more solid/sturdy.

Here are some more notes/impressions:

Upgraded the firmware with the editor, very straight forward.
With some tweaking in the editor the velocity response is now spot on.
The keybed doesn't have escapement like the VPC1 and I miss that a little bit. But the overall action feels nicer to me. I would love to try this same keybed with the escapement option.
The aftertouch is useless. It just takes too much force to activate (not adjustable) and there's a delay that is very annoying (not only at the beginning). The aftertouch implementation on the S61 feels a lot more natural and usable.
The sticks are very smooth. The springs offer nice resistance and it's very good for quick vibratos. The not sprung axis have almost zero resistance and might feel cheap for some. Slow accurate modulations are a bit harder but I'm getting better at it. I think I could get used to them if I had to. Anyway my plan from the beginning was to remove all the knobs so I can slide it under the desk and put some faders on top, so I don't care much about these.
@emilio_n I found that the lightguide wasn't as useful as I thought it would be. There are many patches where the keyswitches are more than 2 octaves away from the center on the S61. That means they will be also out of range on the S88 and you'll have to change octaves to see the keyswitches. An added annoyance is that the octave setting is global and KK doesn't remember a different setting per track... so you end up having to switch octaves up and down all the time.

I find that a second controller for the keyswitches is much more effective.


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## emilio_n (Jun 19, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> @emilio_n I found that the lightguide wasn't as useful as I thought it would be. There are many patches where the keyswitches are more than 2 octaves away from the center on the S61. That means they will be also out of range on the S88 and you'll have to change octaves to see the keyswitches. An added annoyance is that the octave setting is global and KK doesn't remember a different setting per track... so you end up having to switch octaves up and down all the time.


Good point!
I was thinking more on Sonokinetic libraries and some drums libraries that have the different sections or zones all long the keys more than with the normal key switches for orchestral libraries but the solution is easy as remember where is each thing. Maybe no big deal.

I will go on Monday to the store to test the key beds. Bad luck that is impossible to find a VPC1 in Hong Kong to try because is still an option.


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## spacepluk (Jun 19, 2020)

Yeah, for drums it's nice.


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## Lupez (Jun 19, 2020)

I vouch for the SL88 Grand. I am a guitar player not a pianist but the action feels super nice. Funnily I was looking into buying a VPC1 but I too had to take size into consideration because it won’t fit under a desk. Right now I am recording a classical pianist and the VPC1 would have been perfect for the task but unless you have a classical trained hand you won’t regret it.


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## Lupez (Jun 19, 2020)

Sorry I missed the post where you say you bought one. Since you now have both, would you confirm my thoughts on the VPC1 being the best option of the two for a classical pianist?


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## spacepluk (Jun 19, 2020)

It's very a subjective thing, I don't think there's a clear best option. I'm no pianist but here are my thoughts:

The SL88 Grand is very good but without the escapement some pianists might complain that it doesn't feel like the real thing. On the other hand the Kawai has escapement but the action is heavier so depending on personal preference one might prefer the SL88 Grand even though it lacks the escapement mechanism.

Also the pedal that comes with the SL88 is just on/off, while the Kawai's triple pedal unit has a continuous sustain pedal for half-pedaling and such. So that might be a factor as well if you're using the stock pedals.

My wife has classical piano training but she hasn't tried the SL88 yet... I'm curious to hear what she thinks about it. She also thought that the VPC1 was a bit too heavy and her favorite action is a Yamaha upright she had at her parents which felt like butter (her words).


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## Lupez (Jun 19, 2020)

Thanks. The continous pedal is also available for the SL88 but of course it doesn’t replace the escapement of the VPC1. 

I am still contemplating the Kawai to make my pianist clients happy so I am very curious to hear your wife’s opinion on the SL88 for a direct comparison.


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## PerryD (Jun 20, 2020)

I've heard good things about these Roland midi gherkin controllers. Apparently they have aftertaste as well.


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## PaulieDC (Jul 24, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> My wife has classical piano training but she hasn't tried the SL88 yet... I'm curious to hear what she thinks about it.


Annnnnnd????????


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## 98bpm (Sep 18, 2020)

spacepluk said:


> The keybed doesn't have escapement like the VPC1 and I miss that a little bit. But the overall action feels nicer to me. I would love to try this same keybed with the escapement option.


The Fatar website shows that the TP40Wood offers a "ES: Mechanical Escapement Touch Feeling Kit". Does anybody know if this "kit" can be added to the SL88 Grand? If so, how do you get one and install it?


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## mybadmemory (Sep 19, 2020)

98bpm said:


> The Fatar website shows that the TP40Wood offers a "ES: Mechanical Escapement Touch Feeling Kit". Does anybody know if this "kit" can be added to the SL88 Grand? If so, how do you get one and install it?



Fatar usually don’t sell single products to individuals but rather bulk orders to companies. Some companies like Doepfer resell individual fatar parts one by one to individuals. They don’t seem to list this kit on their website though.

I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to add one yourself to an already built keyboard.


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## 98bpm (Sep 19, 2020)

mybadmemory said:


> Fatar usually don’t sell single products to individuals but rather bulk orders to companies. Some companies like Doepfer resell individual fatar parts one by one to individuals. They don’t seem to list this kit on their website though.
> 
> I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to add one yourself to an already built keyboard.


I reached out to Studiologic about it. But I hear their customer support is poor, so I won’t hold my breath.

*EDIT* I got a response back from FATAR over the weekend......

"Fatar's site is mainly dedicated to musical instruments brands and the products are normally sold in quantities to companies. That said, a post-installation is also not feasible for technical reasons."

So it looks like it can't be done....easily.


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