# Composition / sketching process (John Powell - Mix with the Masters)



## borisb2 (Feb 25, 2020)

I went through the Mix with the Masters series from John Powell .. really impressive.

Did I get that wrong or is he really inputting straight into Logic? Not too uncommon these days I know, but his type of music (HTTYD for example) reminds me almost more of concert music than film score (some cues at least) .. so I'm wondering, what might be his process when sketching down ideas? going bar by bar (or rather 4 bar-loops as he is showing with "Third date") and just shuffle around the sections? Or sketching out the bigger structure on piano/guide track first?

On that note: I just started Alan Belkins Composition book where he also gives tips on sketching - essentially saying one should flesh out short fragments first (unconnected) and worry about connecting them later. Now I'm wondering, is that your approach as well?


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## jonathanparham (Feb 26, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> On that note: I just started Alan Belkins Composition book where he also gives tips on sketching - essentially saying one should flesh out short fragments first (unconnected) and worry about connecting them later. Now I'm wondering, is that your approach as well?


 Don't want to hijack the thread, but knowing you've done a majority of the Scoreclub stuff, how do you feel Belkin's book compares to Couternpoint 2 or Moltivic Melody course offered? I finished Orchestrating the Line 2 and went into Counterpoint 2, but honestly feel I'm slowing down at the end of Counterpoint 2.
Back ON topic. I feel right now I'm writing cells/fragments at cue/hit points, then having a theme/motive (Scoreclub really helps with this IMO), then I have to knit the hit point to the other parts with some kind of transition. I find it more difficult to have a line that goes right to the hit point. Also, it depends if that cue point it something client or I want.
I haven't watched Mix with the Masters yet, but I have watched the YT where Powell talks about the scene you're referring to.


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## jbuhler (Feb 26, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> On that note: I just started Alan Belkins Composition book where he also gives tips on sketching - essentially saying one should flesh out short fragments first (unconnected) and worry about connecting them later. Now I'm wondering, is that your approach as well?


It very much depends. I often work this way, and produce lots of noodle fragments. Often I'll make a piece by connecting a set of them, or incorporating a shorter piece I composed into a larger work as a section. But for larger works, I usually plan out the general shape of the whole. That might be according to some basic framework like sonata form, or ABA', or a dynamic curve, or general narrative. And then I compose towards that guiding framework.

But I also work out from noodles and develop them into pieces more or less linearly and often without a form in mind as I work (though I've internalized lots of phrase and small unit structures like periods, sentences, AABA... and those certainly guide my intuition even when the pitch language I'm using isn't especially tonal). I will also often generate lots of variants of a particular noodle and store them however is convenient in a DAW. The scratch pad in Studio One is great for this sort of thing as is the cellular approach encouraged by a DAW like Ableton Live. 

Most DAWs are optimized for popular music production and don't make it especially easy to work in large sections and rearrange things in them. If you are moving around blocks of 4-16 measures sure, that's really easy. But when you start working with larger sections and you want to modify things, it can get difficult and I inevitably end up having to edit the midi around the cuts and joins quite a lot. Such moving often also messes with time signature changes and those need to be attended to.

I find Studio One has a great system for doing this kind of sketching, arranging, and re-arranging, but I've also found it quite unstable when working with long pieces (in my case, 25 minutes) and a large number of scratch pads (I think that piece had about 20) and I also find it a bit troublesome when my track counts get above about 30, though I know lots of folks are now using it for very large templates. I'm now working mostly in Logic and though it has similar functionality to the Studio One arranger for shuffling sections about, it is not nearly as nifty and it usually requires more clean up work.


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## JohnG (Feb 26, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> ...his type of music (HTTYD for example) reminds me almost more of concert music than film score (some cues at least) ..



HTTYD -- amazing work, just amazing. But I differ with you in that I hear all the tricks of modern scoring honed so effectively at Remote Control, but then _also_ incorporating his remarkable mastery of such a lot of great orchestral music. Such variety too -- just the coolest.

The sequel, HTTYD 2, is arguably even more dazzling, especially the choir writing.


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## Wes Antczak (Feb 26, 2020)

What about The Hidden World? I've been meaning to catch up (I only have the first one).


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## borisb2 (Feb 26, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> how do you feel Belkin's book compares to Counterpoint 2 or Moltivic Melody course offered?


I think Belkins book is a bit more academical and also covers more the structural aspect of composing. I once suggested to Alain (Mayrand) to do a course about the "bigger" structure, transitions etc. - because I dont see a lot of teaching in that area. He seemed interested - but I think he a has lot other stuff to do. Belkins book fills that gap (I hope - just started)



JohnG said:


> that I hear all the tricks of modern scoring honed so effectively at Remote Control


I guess there is no such thing as a master class about these tricks?  Listening to Zimmer master class, philosophing about question and answer didnt bring me closer to that goal  .. (still was nice to listen to of course)
Coming from producing pop- and edm-music I have no problem developing "simpler" structure, whether it is minimalistic music or even typical Zimmer-style build-ups, harmonically complex or whatever .. but tackling this concert style big structure - thats a different beast to me

@jbuhler .. intereresting insights in your way of writing - thanks for that



Wes Antczak said:


> What about The Hidden World? I've been meaning to catch up (I only have the first one).








Third Date How To Train Your Dragon Inside the Track #31 - Videos - Mix With The Masters


Learn the entire process of music production, mixing and mastering from the world’s top engineers and producers through seminars and online videos.



mixwiththemasters.com


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## JohnG (Feb 26, 2020)

borisb2 said:


> ...
> I guess there is no such thing as a master class about these tricks? Listening to Zimmer master class, philosophing about question and answer didnt bring me closer to that goal



I am no expert on the tricks, but I do have a couple of suggestions:

1. Listen very carefully, with really good headphones (not speakers). You can hear a lot of 'decoration' that is harder to hear on speakers; and

2. Consider finding a copy of the score for The Da Vinci Code. When it was released -- I can't exactly remember whether this came with the DVD or the score -- it included audio of the separate stems -- brass, winds, strings, synth (and maybe 'other?'). It's interesting, though certainly not definitive.




borisb2 said:


> ...tackling this concert style big structure - thats a different beast to me



Applying the expression, 'concert style big structure' when one is considering film scores, might be overly generous. The structure of film music typically is dictated by the picture. Some movies are in 30 second blurbs, some longer, some shorter. So the music quite naturally needs to move at intervals, whether or not it 'works' musically.

You can read about rondo form or sonata-rondo or whatever, but it's really just the movie.

But if by this you are talking about orchestration, not A-B-A structure or something, then you can learn a lot by reading actual scores. Ravel's are inexpensive and easy to get; there is Omni Publishing that has released a number of movie scores, though they are more costly. Their editions are very good, in my opinion; much more complete than I expected.

And of course there are John Williams orchestral scores available too. I think he's the best modern orchestrator of traditional orchestra, though there are other contenders and, if you prefer HZ's school, he's in a different track, really.

Have fun!

john


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## jononotbono (Feb 26, 2020)

I have to check this out. John Powell is an amazing composer! One of my favorites of modern times!


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## borisb2 (Mar 2, 2020)

just came across this comparison .. have to check John Powells youtube-channel



Edit .. a goldmine:


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