# Making samples less in your face



## desert (Apr 11, 2017)

Without talking about reverb, mic position, ERs, delay or high-frequency cutting, because I've tried all these...


My songs always sound too close no matter what I do. The samples are always in your face.

Are there any more tricks?


----------



## Saxer (Apr 11, 2017)

More dynamic curves and less quantisation. Without dynamic curves all non-percussive samples sound like a plank to me. They always sound close because signal and room can't be divided by ear without movement. The sustain part of any sample sounds close when you cut it out and hear it without attack and release, no matter in which Teldex or Air it is recorded. The more the music breathes the more the room comes through. And the more the music breathes the less room is necessary.


----------



## Daniel James (Apr 11, 2017)

I know you said no reverb BUT other than the advice about dynamics above which you should try, you should also try running a string group channel with a reverb on it then you can try panning your strings manually. the good thing with the verb on your bus is that even hard panned will create some reverb tail on the other side which creates more of a space feel. One thing I do also when something is too close is to load a reverb as an insert and pull the dry signal back until it feels more in the room. 

Seriously though making things sound further away without using any of the techniques you said dont work will make your life harder. You need to try a few of them again I fear.

-DJ


----------



## desert (Apr 12, 2017)

@Saxer - an interesting eye(ear?) opener. I'll certainly try adding more dynamics.

@Daniel James - cheers Daniel. Ill give your panning technique on reverb bus a go.

The thing is, i've tried so many experiments with convolution reverb and ERs, tried different signal chains and eq's, etc. But nothing is working for me. It just makes the samples have a wet delay rather than making the sample wetter and pushing it back. 

Using a shorter tail didn't work either.


----------



## muk (Apr 12, 2017)

Are you using dry or wet samples? If the first, what is your process to place them on stage? One good tool to create depth is 'Proximity' by Tokyo Dawn Labs. It's a free plugin and well worth experimenting with it.


----------



## Karsten Vogt (Apr 12, 2017)

Did you also experiment with mid/side eq? Side: low cut 60-120 Hz, -3 to -6 db shelving at 4k-5k. Side: to compensate this high frequency mid reduction set a +3 to +6 db shelving at 4k-5k. You'll have to experiment with the shelving eq settings a bit but it might help.

Reverb: a rather high predelay also tends to "hit you in the face" because the dry signal isn't that "washed out" (dunno how to explain it correctly). Try setting the predelay to a rather lower amount (preferably only for the samples hitting your face too hard).

I hope this helps a bit. Let us know how (not if) you achieved your mixing problems.


----------



## Gerhard Westphalen (Apr 12, 2017)

Alan Meyerson has mentioned an interesting trick he uses for this using an Eventide reverb plugin (I don't remember what it's called). There's a knob that allows you to create distance so use uses it to push things like woodwinds farther back without adding reverb.


----------



## Blakus (Apr 12, 2017)

Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Alan Meyerson has mentioned an interesting trick he uses for this using an Eventide reverb plugin (I don't remember what it's called). There's a knob that allows you to create distance so use uses it to push things like woodwinds farther back without adding reverb.


The trick Alan mentions actually does apply reverb, since Eventide Stereo Room 2016 is very much a typical reverb plugin. The "position" parameter does a great job at pushing things a little further back, but not much better than a lot of other reverbs; it does apply a reverb tail.

I sympathise with this issue though, for whatever reason, far too many sample libraries are recorded "in our faces"


----------



## Joram (Apr 12, 2017)

I listened to your Second Chance trailer, Cristiano. Although not all instruments in the mix sound close, I think I know what you mean. The problem has a.o. to do with ER and reverb, whether you like it or not.

First, it all starts with the source material. As Saxar mentions, work on your vi-arrangement skills to make musical space and let the instruments breath a bit.

Regarding reverb and ER and in very short: in sound, hearing distance has to do with the room and first reflections. For our brain/ears the time difference between the direct sound and first reflection (coming from floor, wall or ceiling or for example a tabletop) determines the distance to a sound source. The next reflections determine the size of the room. After a while (pre-delay) the rest of the reflections make the reverb tail.

The reverb problem is not invincible. I have the impression that in the Second Chance trailer the first reflections are masked by an other reverb, which sounds very muddy. So, tweak the reverb: first reflections and the time the reverb start (pre-delay) and eq the reverb a bit. Take out a little 200Hz with a Q that isn't too small. Secondly, the violins are panned to the very left which makes them set apart. Panning is good trick to make sounds stand out more or less but here it doesn't work at all. Next to that your samples sound rather dull - what library do you use? Are you sure you did your utmost to make them sound like real instruments?


----------



## Andreas Moisa (Apr 12, 2017)

I use the Eventide 2016 Stereo Room or this http://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/


----------



## robgb (Apr 12, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I know you said no reverb BUT other than the advice about dynamics above which you should try, you should also try running a string group channel with a reverb on it then you can try panning your strings manually. the good thing with the verb on your bus is that even hard panned will create some reverb tail on the other side which creates more of a space feel. One thing I do also when something is too close is to load a reverb as an insert and pull the dry signal back until it feels more in the room.
> 
> Seriously though making things sound further away without using any of the techniques you said dont work will make your life harder. You need to try a few of them again I fear.
> 
> -DJ


What he said. This is exactly what I do.


----------



## goalie composer (Apr 12, 2017)

+1 for proximity


----------



## desert (Apr 12, 2017)

muk said:


> Are you using dry or wet samples? If the first, what is your process to place them on stage? One good tool to create depth is 'Proximity' by Tokyo Dawn Labs. It's a free plugin and well worth experimenting with it.



Using wet samples with a mix mic room setting (Cinematic Studio Strings + Berlin Brass)



Gerhard Westphalen said:


> Alan Meyerson has mentioned an interesting trick he uses for this using an Eventide reverb plugin (I don't remember what it's called). There's a knob that allows you to create distance so use uses it to push things like woodwinds farther back without adding reverb.





Andreas Moisa said:


> I use the Eventide 2016 Stereo Room or this http://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/



Gerhard I've watched this video  Maybe I'll use the free version of Proximity before I buy eventide.



Karsten Vogt said:


> Did you also experiment with mid/side eq? Side: low cut 60-120 Hz, -3 to -6 db shelving at 4k-5k. Side: to compensate this high frequency mid reduction set a +3 to +6 db shelving at 4k-5k. You'll have to experiment with the shelving eq settings a bit but it might help.
> 
> Reverb: a rather high predelay also tends to "hit you in the face" because the dry signal isn't that "washed out" (dunno how to explain it correctly). Try setting the predelay to a rather lower amount (preferably only for the samples hitting your face too hard).
> 
> I hope this helps a bit. Let us know how (not if) you achieved your mixing problems.



Good point - I've lowered the db in mid-side settings but haven't cut freq. I'll try this.



Joram said:


> I listened to your Second Chance trailer, Cristiano. Although not all instruments in the mix sound close, I think I know what you mean. The problem has a.o. to do with ER and reverb, whether you like it or not.
> 
> First, it all starts with the source material. As Saxar mentions, work on your vi-arrangement skills to make musical space and let the instruments breath a bit.
> 
> ...



<monkeycoveringeyesemoji> Appreciate you listening Joram butI should say I wrote/mixed that piece 2 years ago before I knew about the stuff that could add depth! It definitely needed better mixing back then. (I used HWstrings and brass)

Maybe I should upload a track that I'm working on now


----------



## Living Fossil (Apr 12, 2017)

desert said:


> Without talking about reverb, mic position, ERs, delay or high-frequency cutting, because I've tried all these...
> 
> 
> My songs always sound too close no matter what I do. The samples are always in your face.
> ...



Yes. Cutting the high frequencies. High frequencies have less energy than the lower ones, so they decrease with the distance. Coating an instrument that was recorded with little distance in a huge reverb will produce an artificial result, since normally those high frequencies would be much weaker under those circumstances.


----------



## givemenoughrope (Apr 12, 2017)

How about SPAT?


----------



## patrick76 (Apr 12, 2017)

Narrow the stereo field for an instrument group. And, depending on the source material, you could try a dip at around 700hz. I think I remember AlexanderSchiborr doing that in one of his pieces he posted here that seemed to work well. Can't hurt to give it a try.


----------



## Frederick Russ (Apr 12, 2017)

Check here:

*Stereo Width:* Consider what a flute sounds like three feet away from you with your eyes closed. The stereo field will be loud and massive like its nearly nine feet wide. Then tell the flute player to step back to ten feet away. Listen. The stereo field has narrowed and its less loud. At twenty feet it sounds almost mono and much quieter; and definitely mono at 30 feet - although you can still hear reflections bouncing off the walls of your IR or algorithmic reverb. We used to narrow stereo width or even removing one channel of a stereo instrument routinely to push it back into the mix spatially without arming one Early/Loose/Long reflection source.

*Early Reflections / Loose reflections:* listen very carefully to your instrument to see how it excites the walls of your virtual stage and hall. Depending upon how much room ambience is baked into the samples will determine whether you apply either early or loose reflections (or both). I like using Valhalla Room because you can essentially have several dozen chains of them running with no real discernible hit on the CPU. You can also essentially mimic this effect by the judicial use of delays to emulate early and loose reflections if those are missing in your recorded samples.

Spatially, you want every instrument distance from you as the conductor correct in closeness spatially, volume wise and exciting the room differently before your run the entire mix into some kind of gluing reverb to put all instruments in the same room. If you've done your homework (stereo width or mono-ing out instruments to either bring them forward or push them back; use of ER/LR to excite the room accurately), gluing them all together with a gluing reverb adds to the controlled chaos of all those sounds bouncing off the walls in an authentic and believable way.


----------



## Flaneurette (Apr 12, 2017)

There is a little_ trick_ you can do in Kontakt. 

I've made a Kontakt example instrument: http://www.mediafire.com/file/783wh8oylblbvw4/Trombone+Tenor.nki Try fiddling with the dry/wet settings of the convolution. Set wet setting to your liking, and then fiddle with the dry setting to pull the instrument forward or backward. There is a sweet spot where you hear very little reverb, while the instrument is being pulled back. That depends on the IR. To control dynamics you could add a solid bus compressor to it.


----------



## karelpsota (Apr 12, 2017)

Have you tried transient designers? 

Soft attacks makes things sound distant. It takes away the "bite/punch" of samples.

Doesn't work on everything tough...


----------



## jonathanprice (Apr 12, 2017)

My main placement tool now is MIR Pro, but you could try Tokyo Dawn Records' Proximity. It works, and it's free. http://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/


----------



## neblix (Apr 12, 2017)

Adding a lot of reverb won't get rid of a close sound. However, a well-chosen dry/wet mix on your reverb WILL quickly get rid of it.

When you simply add a lot of reverb, you're not ever taking away the sharp, pristine and crisp sound, you're just adding stuff to it. So you hear the close sound... and also all this other stuff.

You want to mix *down *the dry signal and bring up the wet signal. Obviously a side effect of this is muffling the sound, as sound gets bounced around, it's bound to lose some of the more nuanced information. Transients will also smear a bit.

That's how you get rid of it sounding really close; you literally turn up all the bounced reflections and turn down the direct sound. That's how it works in real life too. The further you get from an instrument, the closer you get to the walls of the room, and so you begin hearing reflections louder than you do the initial waves direct from the instrument.

If you want something substantial to latch onto for this concept, it's called "critical distance", and it's a big consideration in how engineers decide where to place microphones. There's a point where if you're closer, you get more direct sound, if you're further, you get more reflected sound. Adjusting the mic distance according to this is a straight-forward way of controlling the distance of the recorded sound (which is kinda like... *duh*?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_distance

They talk about *D *(direct sound pressure) and *R* (reverberent sound pressure), and naturally, they're inversely correlated. So mirror this in your dry/wet reverb mix, and you'll be surprised how easily it works.


----------



## Joram (Apr 13, 2017)

desert said:


> Maybe I should upload a track that I'm working on now


Perhaps you should.


----------



## Joram (Apr 13, 2017)

neblix said:


> If you want something substantial to latch onto for this concept, it's called "critical distance", and it's a big consideration in how engineers decide where to place microphones. There's a point where if you're closer, you get more direct sound, if you're further, you get more reflected sound. Adjusting the mic distance according to this is a straight-forward way of controlling the distance of the recorded sound (which is kinda like... *duh*?)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_distance
> 
> They talk about *D *(direct sound pressure) and *R* (reverberent sound pressure), and naturally, they're inversely correlated. So mirror this in your dry/wet reverb mix, and you'll be surprised how easily it works.


I should have mentioned that. This is indeed a very important factor.


----------



## Serg Halen (Apr 13, 2017)

I think you need apply more room reverb for your instruments. Not hall, cuz this is will blurry you mix. But if you add short room for dry instruments, then you get more warm and soft sound, whatever library are you use. And actually that's can help making a "virtual stage", not a hall reverb, as many people think (and me recently). Good luck!


----------



## robgb (Apr 14, 2017)

jonathanprice said:


> My main placement tool now is MIR Pro, but you could try Tokyo Dawn Records' Proximity. It works, and it's free. http://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/


I have proximity and it's great, but there's another free tool that's even better in my opinion called Panagement. https://www.auburnsounds.com/products/Panagement.html


----------



## neblix (Apr 14, 2017)

Turn down the dry signal. I promise, it'll be the most effective thing out of any suggestion in this thread. Not to say the other suggestions are wrong or not effective, just simply that this will be the most dramatic difference for the lowest effort put in.


----------



## dex203 (Apr 26, 2017)

the problem is reverb most people use it wrong sam from samplecontrol knows his stuff


----------



## neblix (Apr 26, 2017)

dex203 said:


> the problem is reverb most people use it wrong sam from samplecontrol knows his stuff




This demonstrates what I've been saying in the thread.


----------



## desert (Apr 27, 2017)

neblix said:


> This demonstrates what I've been saying in the thread.



Appreciate all your helpful replies!

It seems like turning down the dry samples, making sure not to lose all transients in the process, was a great starting point for me.

I played around with a few suggestions and exported them for comparison *IF* anyone is interested...(I'm sure most of you have already past this problem years ago)

I could sit for hours fine tuning, I think I need more practise in finding the sweet spot.

Here are some examples:
1) Original Dry Sound
2) Dry sound turned down + bus reverb
3) Dry sound turned down + bus reverb + narrow image shaper
4) Dry sound turned down + bus PLATE reverb + narrow
5) Valhalla as inserts + bus reverb as glue (Probably too much)


----------



## dex203 (Apr 27, 2017)

your on your way you just have to experiment and find the right balance, it took me like 3 years to figure it out lol i just got it right this year


----------



## dex203 (Apr 27, 2017)

and think about using shorter tails to clean up the muddyness think about it when something is far away you dont necessarily have to hear a long tail to know its far. create depth with short reverb then sweeten the whole thing up with a long tail. you just have to find the balance


----------



## desert (Apr 27, 2017)

dex203 said:


> your on your way you just have to experiment and find the right balance, it took me like 3 years to figure it out lol i just got it right this year


Yep, it's one of those things you kick yourself for not understanding 3 years earlier.


----------



## Rowy (May 4, 2017)

jonathanprice said:


> My main placement tool now is MIR Pro, but you could try Tokyo Dawn Records' Proximity. It works, and it's free. http://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/



Thanks, Jonathan. I use Nimbus, but I'm going to try Proximity as well. I'm a sucker for free stuff 

By the way, I like to use the original recording of a virtual instrument, preferably 'Room', and then add a bit Early Reflections to push the sound backwards. It usually works. I am a hobby producer though, so don't take this advise too serious. I still think that it is almost impossible to have a virtual orchestra sound 'real'. Somewhat real, yes. But not really real if it comes to (new) classical music.


----------



## dex203 (May 4, 2017)

Rowy said:


> Thanks, Jonathan. I use Nimbus, but I'm going to try Proximity as well. I'm a sucker for free stuff
> 
> By the way, I like to use the original recording of a virtual instrument, preferably 'Room', and then add a bit Early Reflections to push the sound backwards. It usually works. I am a hobby producer though, so don't take this advise too serious. I still think that it is almost impossible to have a virtual orchestra sound 'real'. Somewhat real, yes. But not really real if it comes to (new) classical music.


samples can definitely sound real in the hands od a master (not me)




there was a huge thread here about the second one. some guys were accussing him of using real instruments lol but if u listen to his other stuff it all has the same quality. i use his music as reference because i know this is what virtual instruments can sound like


----------



## Rowy (May 4, 2017)

dex203 said:


> samples can definitely sound real in the hands od a master (not me)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




In the first video Sample Modelling Brass is being used. It is one of the best. Still, it's not the real stuff. Epic music isn't suited to test virtual instruments. The more noise it makes, the more suspicious I get 

If he made the second video, he is really good at it. I don't think it can get any better at the moment. So you're absolute right to use this as a reference.


----------

