# Perfection is Overrated



## robgb (Jan 25, 2017)

Nothing we do is perfect. And there is a beauty to imperfection as well.

Trying to find a sample library that perfectly represents every articulation of an orchestra, or guitar, or whatever, is a fruitless exercise.

Your music doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to make people feel.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 25, 2017)

One of the things I noticed awhile back was how my melodies (despite being notated exactly how I wanted them) tended to sound stiff more often than not, and this was the case across manifold libraries. This came to my attention after several months of attempting to switch from keyboard and musical instrument recording to writing absolutely everything on the computer.

I realized how important performance (particularly improvisation) truly is, and that one of the most vital parts of it included "that edge" which live recordings often have. That very same edge is granted by a variable that (as Edward Van Halen put it) can be "like falling down the stairs yet landing on your feet". An improvised approach can sound dangerous and up-in-the-air as opposed to robot-like and boring. You could call it a built-in round robin, but far better.

That's just one example of how something that might not be entirely perfect (say, an off the cuff melody that might not obey one or more scholastically-approved rules) can at times be...well,* better *than perfect. Really. It's one of the reasons I think Zimmer mentioned there was no such thing as an orchestra-at-your-fingertips. You can only do so much without the here-and-now presence of an orchestra, the quirks in their individual performances, etc. You can only emulate so much in the box.

Edgy lines tend to connect more with a listener, at least from my (severely limited and mostly bungling) experience.

I think* robgb* might have partly meant that certain libraries' faults might actually add to that libraries' personality (forgive me if I'm wrong). Same goes for synths...or any instrument, really. As the novice works his or her way to pro, the reality of "human error" and its value in music can become more clear. Learn it early on and you have a really powerful tool to help people_* feel*_ your music.


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## Prockamanisc (Jan 25, 2017)

Humans are imperfect. Humans trying to be perfect is beauty.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 25, 2017)

Prockamanisc said:


> Humans are imperfect. Humans trying to be perfect is beauty.



No beauty is perfect. Perfection is not making it beautful. Only imperfections make it real, worth to be remembered, unique and add some real character to it. Regardless if we are talking about music or something else.


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## robgb (Jan 25, 2017)

I simply meant that the desire to achieve perfection—and the expectation of perfection within ourselves and others (including sample libraries)—is fruitless and counterproductive. What is perfect about, say, Bob Dylan's voice? Yet his songs do something to many people on an emotional level that's far more important than perfect intonation.

Hunting for the great sample library that will somehow make your music perfect is pointless. Put your energy into creating great, emotional music that transcends the impurities of sound and execution.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 25, 2017)

I remember back when live Rock albums were the thing (1970s, yeah I'm old as hell and stuck writing in this forum so there lol!). The thing that made people like me buy...say, both Machine Head and Made in Japan (classic Deep Purple) was precisely because they played the songs differently live than in the studio (though, granted, many of those albums had plenty of bandaid-ing after the fact, MiJ is recognized as one of the more "honest"). And this means even the songs they played straight, without lengthy improvisations. Listen to "Highway Star" from Machine Head and then Made in Japan. The difference can be felt in the gut.


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## studiostuff (Jan 25, 2017)

robgb said:


> Nothing we do is perfect. And there is a beauty to imperfection as well..



Another way to say this is to redefine perfection. Here is a video clip link that IMHO goes way beyond calling it beauty in imperfection. This is what I call perfect:


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## Arbee (Jan 25, 2017)

For some reason, pottery always comes to mind in this conversation as a worthwhile analogy. You see a beautiful hand made piece of pottery that really "talks" to you, then take that same piece and manufacture it. It suddenly becomes "meh". Same shape, same size, same colour, just too much perfection and no heart.

I'm not so generous with sample library developers though. Artistic imperfection is not the same as poor quality control.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 25, 2017)

saying "perfection is overrated" is overrated. 

but it also depends on what perfection means to someone. 

I consider myself a perfectionist and would always feel like face palming myself even when my peers thought i made perfectly beautiful music. I think perfectionism is a trait that makes a composer great. But again it can also discourage a composer and waste a lot of time their time striving for perfection


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## Saxer (Jan 26, 2017)

Perfection is a human invention and like eternity or a mathematic point it's nothing like an abstract idea.


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## Fab (Jan 26, 2017)

Yeah, if we weren't constantly striving for perfection > which to me means striving for better than is currently...then we would not be where we are today...Having the idea of '*perfection*' is part of what makes us great.

...but I DO agree in a way, especially when I think we spend to much time on libraries.

I could be wrong.

Fab,


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 26, 2017)

Can't beat having an ideal can you? The ideal might be the greatest motivator. But I'm unashamedly guilty of leaving in slightly out of tune instrumental notes, off time playing, happy "mistakes". Because to me, that's perfect.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 26, 2017)

_Of course,_ you should always strive to do your best work, whether it is composing or creating libraries.

_Of course,_ it does not negate what you did well because you did not achieve perfection, whether it is in your estimation or that of others, whether it is composing or creating libraries.


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## robgb (Jan 26, 2017)

Striving for perfection is pointless because you'll never achieve it. Striving to do the best you can or even better than you've ever done before is a realistic goal. There comes a point, however, where you have to let go and move on to the next project. Stretch your limitations by all means, but also recognize that you have them and know when to stop.


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## chibear (Jan 26, 2017)

I've had this conversation with students over the years so the question comes up "If you cease to strive for perfection does mediocrity not become the norm and if so are standards not lowered?" That's devolution in the art.

There is no such thing as 'good enough' in music. To be able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning you should be able to say "I worked to the best of my ability yesterday". Otherwise, assembly lines becon......and for better pay generally speaking


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## Syneast (Jan 26, 2017)

robgb said:


> Nothing we do is perfect. And there is a beauty to imperfection as well.
> 
> Trying to find a sample library that perfectly represents every articulation of an orchestra, or guitar, or whatever, is a fruitless exercise.
> 
> Your music doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to make people feel.


Yeah.




...I abandoned my desire to craft a perfect reply, so that's what you get.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 26, 2017)

I've gone on about this for a few years. 

If one is not careful about the self questioning portion of "is this fantastic enough yet, maybe if I mix it for 3 more days it will be" one doesn't get much written or finished.


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## Smikes77 (Jan 26, 2017)

Sometimes, something broken is the right kind of perfect.


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## Arbee (Jan 26, 2017)

One of the earliest pieces of advice I received on this very forum is that art is never finished, just abandoned. I still use that advice to "move on". As a reformed perfectionist, these days I only ever aspire to keep getting better and better at what I do.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 27, 2017)

semantics, semantics


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## Arbee (Jan 27, 2017)

NYC Composer said:


> I've gone on about this for a few years.
> 
> If one is not careful about the self questioning portion of "is this fantastic enough yet, maybe if I mix it for 3 more days it will be" one doesn't get much written or finished.


A lesson I've learnt far too many times is that 3 more or 300 more days on my mix isn't going fix a flawed piece of musical architecture....

....which leads me to the question "what are you most trying be perfect at - composing, orchestrating, performing, mixing, mastering - everything?!"


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## Rodney Money (Jan 27, 2017)

All of this talk concerning perfectionism can be boiled down to simple science. There are four basic temperaments of the human personality: Peaceful Phlegmatic, Popular Sanguine, Powerful Choleric, and the Perfect Melancholy where the combinations of these four make up our individual personalities. The temperament that most composers and artists embody is the Perfect Melancholy in which the defining characteristic is perfectionism. For those who want more information on this topic, please look here: http://temperaments.fighunter.com/?page=melancholic


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## Karma (Jan 27, 2017)

I personally don't believe in striving to be perfect, rather just aiming to do the best that *you* can.

On the topic of imperfections, a quote from Good Will Hunting stands out to me:
_"People call these things imperfections, but they're not. That's the good stuff."_


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## Polkasound (Jan 27, 2017)

In his thick German accent, the artist Bill Alexander [you've all heard of his protege, Bob Ross] always used to say, "There are no mistakes. There are only happy accidents." Those words of wisdom have translated well for me from art to music. I can't count the number of times I strove to come up with a "perfect" part, but ended up playing something unintentional, yet better. Over the years, I've incorporated a lot of those "happy accidents" into my repertoire. In theory, this is a growing process that will have no end, and to me, that's one of the thrills of being a musician and composer.

Happy accidents, however, do not translate as kindly to one's tennis game.


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## Dietz (Jan 27, 2017)

The discussion is futile, as no human being is "perfect" in the actual sense of the word. Personally I try to do as good as I can, and then some. If this makes something "perfect", fine - and if it doesn't, then it just means that there's room for development.


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## Arbee (Jan 27, 2017)

Dietz said:


> The discussion is futile, as no human being is "perfect" in the actual sense of the word. Personally I try to do as good as I can, and then some. If this makes something "perfect", fine - and if it doesn't, then it just means that there's room for development.


If you want to know just _how_ futile this discussion is, just ask the question "what is perfect music?"


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## Rodney Money (Jan 27, 2017)

Arbee said:


> If you want to know just _how_ futile this discussion is, just ask the question "what is perfect music?"


Bach's Partita No. 2, "Chaccone." Next question.


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## pixel (Jan 27, 2017)

I love imperfections in music and even mistakes on live gigs. It's nothing wrong. We are humans we made mistakes. Im actually tired of 'perfect music'. Some songs sound like written and recorded by robots and it's especially audible with vocals: perfect pitch, no breath or any other noise between words, 1000 cuts and 1000 overdubs which makes vocals totally unnatural and washed from emotions... Add to this hard compression to remove dynamics and perfect quantization to grid. It's fine for electronic music but to do this with other genres is ridiculous. 
I see tendency in music to hate all what define human. Idk are we at this moment that it's shame to be a human? Because it look like this, not only in music but almost every area of life. I hope it's a question of time when we bring back human element to music again.


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## NYC Composer (Jan 27, 2017)

Dietz said:


> The discussion is futile, as no human being is "perfect" in the actual sense of the word. Personally I try to do as good as I can, and then some. If this makes something "perfect", fine - and if it doesn't, then it just means that there's room for development.


You do pretty damn well, Dietz. I think kindly of your company every day I use VEP.


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## chrysshawk (Jan 27, 2017)

Thankfully I don´t pursue perfection.

I pursue improvement.


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## Karsten Vogt (Jan 28, 2017)

When it comes to sound libraries there's always this dilemma: most are not perfect and I can't analyze the amount of imperfections (no demo versions available) and with all the paid walkthroughs (just advertising to me) I can't be sure that the reviewer also notices the flaws or mentions them. I have to pay a high price and might get disappointed because the library has flaws and I can't even sell it (some developers are a big exception here). And topping this some devs sell their flaws as character and things of beauty. That's more than disappointing for me.


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## Rctec (Jan 28, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Bach's Partita No. 2, "Chaccone." Next question.


Bach's "Kleine Fuge"! ...but we seem to agree on a composer, at least.
Oh, what about the second movement of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto?


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## Rctec (Jan 28, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> All of this talk concerning perfectionism can be boiled down to simple science. There are four basic temperaments of the human personality: Peaceful Phlegmatic, Popular Sanguine, Powerful Choleric, and the Perfect Melancholy where the combinations of these four make up our individual personalities. The temperament that most composers and artists embody is the Perfect Melancholy in which the defining characteristic is perfectionism. For those who want more information on this topic, please look here: http://temperaments.fighunter.com/?page=melancholic


...don't I know it! Why else am I up,at 1:30 am - and see the weekend as the Perfect time to get a lot of writing done without interruptions?


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## Smikes77 (Jan 28, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Bach's Partita No. 2, "Chaccone." Next question.



In no more than an hour.


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## Rctec (Jan 28, 2017)

Karsten Vogt said:


> When it comes to sound libraries there's always this dilemma: most are not perfect and I can't analyze the amount of imperfections (no demo versions available) and with all the paid walkthroughs (just advertising to me) I can't be sure that the reviewer also notices the flaws or mentions them. I have to pay a high price and might get disappointed because the library has flaws and I can't even sell it (some developers are a big exception here). And topping this some devs sell their flaws as character and things of beauty. That's more than disappointing for me.


Time to start recording your very own library! It's easy! Get the best players with the best instruments into your favorite studio. Make it future proof by recording every microphone possible. Make sure that each note has commitment and real feel. Especially the "ppp" ones, which are hard to do with conviction, add vibrato and dynamics, figure out legato - and voila! A few million (!) dollars poorer you have the beginnings of something's acceptable...oh, and con Sordino can Not really be faked up. So that bringing them all back in for a week. Short notes? At least 8 dynamics (we are now at 64 - but we are mad) and staccatisimo to quaver, crouched,minim, semibreve marcato -at least eight velocities and 8 round robins.
Pizz, Col leg, sul tasto, sul pont... I started this in 1994. We are still at it. It getting somewhere, and sometimes I like it... it's lots and lots of work to do for the four full time employees in the sample department...
So, roll up your sleeve and get Exactly what you're after!
But perfect is boring....


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## rottoy (Jan 28, 2017)

Rctec said:


> Short notes? At least 8 dynamics (we are now at 64 - but we are mad).


64 dynamic levels for shorts, with a full surround set of mics?! Germans be trippin', man.


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## dcoscina (Jan 28, 2017)

Dietz said:


> The discussion is futile, as no human being is "perfect" in the actual sense of the word. Personally I try to do as good as I can, and then some. If this makes something "perfect", fine - and if it doesn't, then it just means that there's room for development.


VSL has always been pretty damned flawless as far as their process of recording sample libraries goes. Pristine is the word I'd actually describe them.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 28, 2017)

Rctec said:


> Time to start recording your very own library! It's easy! Get the best players with the best instruments into your favorite studio. Make it future proof by recording every microphone possible. Make sure that each note has commitment and real feel. Especially the "ppp" ones, which are hard to do with conviction, add vibrato and dynamics, figure out legato - and voila! A few million (!) dollars poorer you have the beginnings of something's acceptable...oh, and con Sordino can Not really be faked up. So that bringing them all back in for a week. Short notes? At least 8 dynamics (we are now at 64 - but we are mad) and staccatisimo to quaver, crouched,minim, semibreve marcato -at least eight velocities and 8 round robins.
> Pizz, Col leg, sul tasto, sul pont... I started this in 1994. We are still at it. It getting somewhere, and sometimes I like it... it's lots and lots of work to do for the four full time employees in the sample department...
> So, roll up your sleeve and get Exactly what you're after!
> But perfect is boring....



An it STILL won't be as good as the real guys in the room, listening and reacting to each other in real time, assuming the writing is good.


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## AllanH (Jan 28, 2017)

Perfection is not only overrated, it's impossible. To strive for perfection, which leads to improvement, is something I'll always do.


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## muk (Jan 28, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> ll of this talk concerning perfectionism can be boiled down to simple science. There are four basic temperaments of the human personality:



That's rather too simple to pass scientific standards. It's esoteric (or 'proto-psychological' to quote Wikipedia), not scientific.

If you look at this oxford definition for 'perfect': 'Free from any flaw or defect in condition or quality; faultless'. Now the question is, what constitutes a flaw in music, and what constitutes quality? I'd guess that we all have differing opinions about that, in which case everyone's definition of 'perfect' regarding music will be different.


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## robgb (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm glad we haven't gotten into the subjectivity of "perfection."


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## Svyato (Jan 28, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Bach's Partita No. 2, "Chaccone." Next question.


Thanks for the reference; I just have discovered this Bach's work and that is full of feelings. Thanks !


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## Rodney Money (Jan 28, 2017)

muk said:


> That's rather too simple to pass scientific standards. It's esoteric (or 'proto-psychological' to quote Wikipedia), not scientific


Science is "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment." It is simple, and that's the beauty of it where knowing a person's blend of temperamental traits one can fully understand how and why a person reacts to different factors of their lives including why one finds their strength renewed around others while others find their strength renewed by being alone, why certain marriages and friendships do not work, why people procrastonate, why some toddlers and infants seem to be pure angelic and pure blessings while others seem to be "holy" terrors, why people hold off on projects because they feel that they do not have the correct tools especially concerning samples, and even why and how people respond in this very thread concerning perfectionism.


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## thesteelydane (Jan 28, 2017)

Slightly off topic, but Nielsen actually wrote a symphony about the 4 temperaments.

1st movement choleric, 2nd phlegmatic, 3rd melancholic, 4th sanguine

"I had the idea for ‘The Four Temperaments’ many years ago at a country inn in Zealand. On the wall of the room where I was drinking a glass of beer with my wife and some friends hung an extremely comical coloured picture, divided into four sections in which ‘the Temperaments’ were represented and furnished with titles: ‘The Choleric’, ‘The Sanguine’, ‘The Melancholic’ and ‘The Phlegmatic’. The Choleric was on horseback. He had a long sword in his hand, which he was wielding fiercely in thin air; his eyes were bulging out of his head, his hair streamed wildly around his face, which was so distorted by rage and diabolical hate that I could not help bursting out laughing. The other three pictures were in the same style, and my friends and I were heartily amused by the naivety of the pictures, their exaggerated expression and their comic earnestness. But how strangely things can sometimes turn out! I, who had laughed aloud and mockingly at these pictures, returned constantly to them in my thoughts, and one fine day I realized that these shoddy pictures still contained a kind of core or idea and – just think! – even a musical undercurrent! Some time later, then, I began to work out the first movement of a symphony, but I had to be careful that it did not fence in the empty air, and I hoped of course that my listeners would not laugh so that the irony of fate would smite my soul."


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## muk (Jan 28, 2017)

You only need a schematics with four variables to describe, understand, and predict human behaviour? You really believe this? Makes it hard to understand why psychiatrists have to study for six years. Or at all.
Actually the 'Four temperaments' idea is based on a thoroughly dated ancient notion (they treated people according to the 'Säftelehre', which included the topos of the artist as melancholist). It is a stark oversimplification which does not hold up to scientific scrutiny. It fails both in terms of validity and reliability, which is why scientific psychology has moved on (and why Wiki calls it proto-psychology). So, there are models which are better at describing and predicting human behaviour. From a scientific point of view the four temperaments are far from perfect, though from an esoteric point of view they might be not.

There is a piece by Hindemith about the Four Temperamets as well.

On another side note: here are two personality-'tests' that will tell you which composers personality you match (totally unscientific ones):

http://www.weta.org/fm/community/composers

http://www.classicalmpr.org/story/2013/12/10/composers-personality-type


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## Fab (Jan 28, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> All of this talk concerning perfectionism can be boiled down to simple science. There are four basic temperaments of the human personality: Peaceful Phlegmatic, Popular Sanguine, Powerful Choleric, and the Perfect Melancholy where the combinations of these four make up our individual personalities. The temperament that most composers and artists embody is the Perfect Melancholy in which the defining characteristic is perfectionism. For those who want more information on this topic, please look here: http://temperaments.fighunter.com/?page=melancholic



Do you believe that?


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## GtrString (Jan 28, 2017)

To me perfection is just a judgement, and that is always done by someone, for some reason. If so perfection is about setting a bar or a goal and reach it. So I agree with the OP, nothing to see here, pass the street..


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## ctsai89 (Jan 28, 2017)

^ perfection. 

And it's a pretty underrated piece.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 28, 2017)

Fab said:


> Do you believe that?


With the exception of medically diagnosed disorders or conditions I do believe that the majority of people are not just one temperament or another, but a combination, or percentage, of the 4 where 1 normally dominates, but based on the percentages of the other traits they can also have a large influence on a person.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 28, 2017)

Svyato said:


> Thanks for the reference; I just have discovered this Bach's work and that is full of feelings. Thanks !


I personally believe that it's based on the lost of his first wife.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 28, 2017)

Rctec said:


> Bach's "Kleine Fuge"! ...but we seem to agree on a composer, at least.
> Oh, what about the second movement of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto?


Breathtakingly charming, beautifully capturing the sound of a pure soul, and Bach's Little Fugue has always been my 2nd favorite Bach piece, so we were close!


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## Fab (Jan 28, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> With the exception of medically diagnosed disorders or conditions I do believe that the majority of people are not just one temperament or another, but a combination, or percentage, of the 4 where 1 normally dominates, but based on the percentages of the other traits they can also have a large influence on a person.



Ok, I do have things to say. I just don't have the answers yet....give me a few days and I will get back to you.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 28, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> ^ perfection.
> 
> And it's a pretty underrated piece.




That is such a cool piece, Scriabin is excellent.

Wagner as a man could be awful, but this is Heaven in music.


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## ctsai89 (Jan 28, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> That is such a cool piece, Scriabin is excellent.
> 
> Wagner as a man could be awful, but this is Heaven in music.




my top 5 favorite composers:

alexander scriabin
WAGNER  
myaskovsky
Rachmaninoff
Frank Bridge

^ they make perfect music


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 28, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> my top 5 favorite composers:
> 
> alexander scriabin
> WAGNER
> ...



You have very good taste then 

I'm just getting into Rach, in fact I have a couple of great recordings I need to spend more headphone time with. But I'm a Wagnerian who lives for late era Beethoven, Mahler, Richard Strauss, Schoenberg, Bartok. I've loved and studied their works for so many years. For more recent stuff John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith...and yes, I really like Hans  (I have a huge soft spot in my heart for his superhero stuff, but let's not forget Lion King).

Just recently I started wondering about this film-music-as-art debate. You know, the whole "film music ain't exactly Beethoven" thing. You know, media has changed a lot since Schoenberg died...I wouldn't be surprised if, say in a hundred years people generally will have a higher regard for film music. Shoot, people thought Beethoven was a deaf crazy with his late quartets and the Hammerklavier. Now look what people think of them...


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## markleake (Jan 28, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if, say in a hundred years people generally will have a higher regard for film music. Shoot, people thought Beethoven was a deaf crazy with his late quartets and the Hammerklavier. Now look what people think of them...


Interesting, I think this is already the case for a large number of people, not 100 years away. I know many people personally who prefer to listen to film music rather than classical. It is more accessible and relatable for them. I spend much more time myself listening to film and game music than any other styles.


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## LamaRose (Jan 28, 2017)

Perfection, as with beauty, is in the eyes - and ears - of the beholder. As someone stated earlier, it is purely abstract... or as Emerson intimated: in our respective toils of striving, life is a series of ever growing circles built upon the radii of previous achievements. 

Of course, humans have a penchant for those outré "performances" - those seemingly meaningless outliers. Case in point: 

Ironically, 4'33" is one piece that I had personally perfected long before hearing it! Perhaps thats the point: Cage was simply saying: here's your perfection, folks!


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## NoamL (Feb 1, 2017)

Perfection is *underrated.*

IMO the hardest thing in the world about working with VIs and synths is having a sound in your head, sitting down and finding the instrument or preset that's "close enough" and then spending hours trying to make it match the exact sound in your head without losing track of what that originally was. The music in your head is always better than the VI...

"Good enough, time to start writing" is a constant temptation. It always feels rewarding to lay out a nice horizontal stretch of music and feel like I accomplished something. But then when I go back and listen the next day the whole piece feels generic.

I also noticed that my favorite music made up of FEW great instr/sounds instead of MANY good ones. Most powerful music, even of the "epic" variety is not ten gajillion samples layered on each other to create a three dimensional fog of wooshbangs and risers.

You can have the greatest melody ever but without the intensity and emotion of performance it may as well be a player piano.... perfection is underrated here too... I can spend so much time penciling in different CC1 performances and trying to make the VI finally "sing"....


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## NoamL (Feb 1, 2017)

And one more area where perfection is underrated - the right notes.

JW wrote over 250 motifs for Close Encounters Of The Third Kind.

The rule of music is "They only hear us once." We better make that one time count. It is a kind of engineering.

In the greatest music there is a feeling of "inevitability." Or perhaps it's "effortlessness" or "fatefulness"? A feeling that the music leapt into being fully conceived and could not have been any other series of notes. In my mind it's closely associated with the harmonic/melodic minor.

Bach is not my favorite composer... but he is the undisputed MASTER of this...



And it's not just Bach that could do it, here's TOTO haha....



Orchestrating and mocking up is totally pointless if the notes aren't right.


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## DR BOOWHO (Feb 1, 2017)

As second movements go this one is hard to beat for simplicity with a hint of genius.Watched The Kings Speech recently and while I enjoyed Mr Desplat's score it took 2nd place to this


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## ctsai89 (Feb 1, 2017)

NoamL said:


> Perfection is *underrated.*
> 
> IMO the hardest thing in the world about working with VIs and synths is having a sound in your head, sitting down and finding the instrument or preset that's "close enough" and then spending hours trying to make it match the exact sound in your head without losing track of what that originally was. The music in your head is always better than the VI...
> 
> ...



WORD. Make elitists like @NoamL great again!


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## Jetzer (Feb 2, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Breathtakingly charming, beautifully capturing the sound of a pure soul, and Bach's Little Fugue has always been my 2nd favorite Bach piece, so we were close!




I love those visualizations. Always felt it is such a natural way to look at music.


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## robgb (Feb 2, 2017)

ctsai89 said:


> ^ perfection.
> 
> And it's a pretty underrated piece.



I guess "perfection" is merely a matter of taste.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Feb 2, 2017)

robgb said:


> I guess "perfection" is merely a matter of taste.



sure, and there is bad taste and good taste.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 2, 2017)

robgb said:


> I guess "perfection" is merely a matter of taste.



The Scriabin Symphony above is some of his most Wagner-esque music. It could be arguably called "pre-Mahlerian". Scriabin got even more discordantly interesting after this Symphony, I highly recommend checking this piece out:



I thought he was widely considered one of the best after mean and dirty Dick died.


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## Parsifal666 (Feb 2, 2017)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> sure, and there is bad taste and good taste.



I would argue there is also "FUN" bad taste. Which can be bad in a celebratory way.

Wait, I've got the term: "Gloriously Tasteless"!


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## tokatila (Feb 2, 2017)

NoamL said:


> ...
> 
> I also noticed that my favorite music made up of FEW great instr/sounds instead of MANY good ones. Most powerful music, even of the "epic" variety is not ten gajillion samples layered on each other to create a three dimensional fog of wooshbangs and risers.
> 
> ...



"More I layer, greater it sounds" - B. Tyler


----------



## robgb (Feb 2, 2017)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> sure, and there is bad taste and good taste.


Depending on your point of view. Above certain standard thresholds, the appreciation of art is NEVER objective.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Feb 2, 2017)

robgb said:


> Above certain standard thresholds, the appreciation of art is NEVER objective.



Some would assert that that's exactly where things get tricky, in itself a slave to context.


----------



## reddognoyz (Feb 2, 2017)

perfect is the enemy of good

options will enslave you

greatness comes from a good idea and not quite enough time


three of my favorite, if shopworn, sayings.


----------



## ghandizilla (Feb 3, 2017)

I agree with @NoamL : it's not about sonic perfection, it's all about performance and expressiveness, the ability of saying your phrase in one breath. It's not about having 24RRs as Berlin Strings' violins or 64 dynamic layers as Remote Control Tech, the main point is being able to make your entire phrase actually feel something. Too much instruments "feel" hollywoody (CineBrass), mellow (Bravura Brass), adventurous (Adventure Brass), thunderous, etc. on every single note but not when phrased. Because a phrase is a single inspiration, a single intent, not a juxtaposition of "pure" articulations. Sound-wise perfection may be the worst enemy of making an emotional connection with your audience. In this regard, as we say in french : "Le chemin est long, mais la voie est libre" (the path is long, but it is a broad way).


----------



## tokatila (Feb 3, 2017)

Rctec said:


> But perfect is boring....



Funny you should say that, that's the exact line I find myself using very often with my wife.


----------



## tonaliszt (Feb 3, 2017)

Parsifal666 said:


> I would argue there is also "FUN" bad taste. Which can be bad in a celebratory way.
> 
> Wait, I've got the term: "Gloriously Tasteless"!


Sometimes, the idea is to play it as tastelessly as possible - Vladamir Horowitz (iirc)


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 7, 2017)

Rctec said:


> ... Especially the "ppp" ones, which are hard to do with conviction, !!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ... add vibrato and dynamics, figure out legato - and voila! ... and con Sordino can Not really be faked up. So that bringing them all back in for a week. Short notes? At least 8 dynamics (we are now at 64 - but we are mad) and staccatisimo to quaver, crouched,minim, semibreve marcato -at least eight velocities and 8 round robins.
> Pizz, Col leg, sul tasto, sul pont... I started this in 1994. We are still at it. It getting somewhere, and sometimes I like it... it's lots and lots of work to do for the four full time employees in the sample department...
> ...



+1000, Sir!


----------



## Mike Fox (Feb 7, 2017)




----------



## D-Mott (Feb 7, 2017)

I don't think a string sample lib has been done with 8 dynamic layers and 8 round robins. Am I wrong?

That would be pretty neat and if the dynamics were smooth it would be easier then to do convincing cres to decres, ect.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2018)

Ashermusic said:


> An it STILL won't be as good as the real guys in the room, listening and reacting to each other in real time, assuming the writing is good.



True! But I get the feeling libraries are going to keep advancing...more capabilities, ease of use, flexibility, true polyphonic legato (though I think SF got that mostly right with BHOT...finally).

I think there will be more soundtracks that were birthed directly from libraries...and they'll sound different, in a newfound "good" way.

Since no one is paying for music today, true orchestra performances might become more and more rare. I just have this confidence in technology.

The downside? Composition will continue to be dumbed down all to heck. Oh well, if ya want to make the money you do as the man says. He says...


----------



## Ashermusic (Mar 12, 2018)

In the end, it is the guy more than the gear. My composition teacher, the late Avram David, once said to me, "Ornette Coleman is so creative I would pay good money to hear him break bottles against trash cans because I know that he would make good music doing so."

And yes, perfect is boring. My favorite sample libraries all have clear imperfections but they have soul and when I use them, they make me want to compose. Poly legato, shmolly legato, THAT is what I care about.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2018)

I simply threw a treat to the legati hounds.

I don't even use legato that much, I'm mostly a longs type 'o guy (uhhh, not sure that came out right).

I do notice that I mostly use the BHOT when I'm looking for legato strings, I think that was one of the surprise jewels of that library.

Oh NOOO! "The aforementioned hounds bust forth! Man the torpedoes!"


----------



## quantum7 (Mar 12, 2018)

“Be you perfect even as I am perfect.” Being perfect is nearly impossible for human, but striving for perfection should always be our ultimate goal in everything we do in life, even music. I think striving for perfection has been pre-wired in our brains actually. Luckily though, perfection can be found and attained even within the most simple artistic creations.


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2018)

One of the things that turned me off to European Power Metal (no offense to fans) was the slick, obviously-Pro-Toolsed-to-death-and-back perfection of so many of the releases in that genre. I won't mention names, but most of the big ones in that genre have a plasticized smooth sound that negates anything edgy, passionate...it's like genericized Iron Maiden on speed. 

Unfortunately, that syndrome is starting to really show up in Rock albums in general, which is an even bigger shame...because Rock to me is ALL about edgy, passionate playing. I'd rather listen to intentionally lo fi things like Burzum's first two albums or ancient Black Flag before the vast majority of albums calling themselves "rock" today.

*DAMN I'm an ornery old bastard! *


----------



## AlexanderSchiborr (Mar 12, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> One of the things that turned me off to European Power Metal (no offense to fans) was the slick, obviously-Pro-Toolsed-to-death-and-back perfection of so many of the releases in that genre. I won't mention names, but most of the big ones in that genre have a plasticized smooth sound that negates anything edgy, passionate...it's like genericized Iron Maiden on speed.
> 
> Unfortunately, that syndrome is starting to really show up in Rock albums in general, which is an even bigger shame...because Rock to me is ALL about edgy, passionate playing. I'd rather listen to intentionally lo fi things like Burzum's first two albums or ancient Black Flag before the vast majority of albums calling themselves "rock" today.
> 
> *DAMN I'm an ornery old bastard! *



No, I fear you are right (or also my view on these things) regarding the homogenized overly clichee plastic sauce sound and overly used chord progressions. Nothing against the genre though in general, because there are quite some examples which are great.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Mar 12, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> No, I fear you are right (or also my view on these things) regarding the homogenized overly clichee plastic sauce sound and overly used chord progressions. Nothing against the genre though in general, because there are quite some examples which are great.



I go way back to the origins...Rainbow Rising, Highway Star, Manowar, Maiden. It's rare I hear that edgy, rockin' sound anymore. Primal Fear were cool, but they were more Priest-ian than, say, Avantasia (the latter a culprit several times in the plasticized club. Again, no offense to fans).


----------



## ctsai89 (Mar 12, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> True! But I get the feeling libraries are going to keep advancing...more capabilities, ease of use, flexibility, true polyphonic legato (though I think SF got that mostly right with BHOT...finally).
> 
> I think there will be more soundtracks that were birthed directly from libraries...and they'll sound different, in a newfound "good" way.
> 
> ...




I miss you where you been?!


----------



## novaburst (Mar 12, 2018)

robgb said:


> Striving for perfection is pointless



Wrong and wrong again you could not be further from the truth, 

There is such thing as perfection and yes you should strive for it until you get it. 

The perfect exam mark. The perfect score, the perfect note, perfect vision, the perfect time, perfect timing, the perfect kill, the perfect crime, the perfect word. 

Where imperfections start to come in and or as it were acceptable is when you can't be bothered, or give up trying, who are you or anyone to say that perfection is not there or it can not be achieved because you never achieved it, so because you did not get it it can't be there and it is a fruitless journey, 

sorry I don't agree and I never will. 

The problem starts when we start to do things beyond your limitations and it becomes to much to cope with. 
Also failing to call upon help when we need it sometimes we need more than our self to achieve a musical goal or any goal that is beyond our reach. 

The saying practice makes perfect is true but for some we want the perfect with out the sacrifice of time and fun, and with out the hard work (time investment) 

Don't write pieces beyond your field unless of course you have someone with the knowledge to help you achieve that piece

You can only give what you invest the more time you invest in your music the more you can give the less time you spend the less you give. 

Strive for perfection is my encouragement and don't give up. 

The People or person that invented the phone did not give up, now we don't need to wait until we get home to make a call or go to the phone box we touch or speak to our mobile phone screen and the call is made. 

Thank God for those who keep trying, and striving, and do not give up on perfection Imagine where we would be today if every one gave up on perfection. 

How many times have you walked to the store to purchase something apart from food or maybe clothing that is because someone is striving for the perfect world for you, you may like that or not but you try driving around to purchase everything you want and see how much hours, if not the whole day goes and you still did not get what you want. 

Some one some where has not given up in trying to make your world better. 

So if there are so many that are striving for perfection outside of music we do not have the right to lay perfection aside. 

Go for it.


----------



## MatFluor (Mar 13, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> One of the things that turned me off to European Power Metal (no offense to fans) was the slick, obviously-Pro-Toolsed-to-death-and-back perfection of so many of the releases in that genre. I won't mention names, but most of the big ones in that genre have a plasticized smooth sound that negates anything edgy, passionate...it's like genericized Iron Maiden on speed.
> 
> Unfortunately, that syndrome is starting to really show up in Rock albums in general, which is an even bigger shame...because Rock to me is ALL about edgy, passionate playing. I'd rather listen to intentionally lo fi things like Burzum's first two albums or ancient Black Flag before the vast majority of albums calling themselves "rock" today.
> 
> *DAMN I'm an ornery old bastard! *



As a guy who made Powermetal for 16 years, I'm still not offended 

Yes, I know you're right - but that overly-produced sound is part of what I like about it. I like the edgy and passionate playing of others - I mean e.g. Primal Fear is different to Stratovarius. I like clean production, but it has a limit. So, I like both, for different reasons. E.g. Gamma Ray (Kai Hansen was my biggest influence on Songwriting, together with Tolkki) has a huge production, with layers upon layers of guitars. But IMO, live is where metal shines - and there you also see how Primal Fear or Iron Savior sounds (awesome!) vs Gamma Ray or Stratovarius (still good, but not as on the CD). Meaning the rougher production gives a huge advantage for live playing - since it's as edgy as the CD - whereas ultra-clean bands lack the huge production thing, and sound thin or sometimes "bad" (if you know what I mean).

Perfection in that sense is something you want, and drive off near it. Let's take PRimal fear for an example, it's close to the power-metal cleanliness, but took a right turn along the production way. But my take is, you can't take a right turn if you don't know where the road is going.


----------



## SoNowWhat? (Mar 13, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I go way back to the origins...Rainbow Rising, Highway Star, Manowar, Maiden. It's rare I hear that edgy, rockin' sound anymore. Primal Fear were cool, but they were more Priest-ian than, say, Avantasia (the latter a culprit several times in the plasticized club. Again, no offense to fans).


This takes me back. I went to Iron Maiden and the Dead Kennedy’s (back in the day) searching for that edginess. As time went on the edge definitely faded for Maiden. I still enjoy Powerslave but much beyond that is starting to sound a little too refined. Live after Death doesn’t count. (I should say, I’ve not listened to any of their new stuff).

These days perhaps my favourite Maiden album is probably Killers and perhaps the original with Di’Anno out the front. I was once told (can’t verify the accuracy) that the band was unsure whether they should go punk or metal at that time and I think it shows.

BTW, Did anyone ever listen to Cryptic Slaughter? Ahhhh nostaliga.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Mar 13, 2018)

SoNowWhat? said:


> This takes me back. I went to Iron Maiden and the Dead Kennedy’s (back in the day) searching for that edginess. As time went on the edge definitely faded for Maiden. I still enjoy Powerslave but much beyond that is starting to sound a little too refined. Live after Death doesn’t count. (I should say, I’ve not listened to any of their new stuff).
> 
> These days perhaps my favourite Maiden album is probably Killers and perhaps the original with Di’Anno out the front. I was once told (can’t verify the accuracy) that the band was unsure whether they should go punk or metal at that time and I think it shows.
> 
> BTW, Did anyone ever listen to Cryptic Slaughter? Ahhhh nostaliga.



CS was a very cool band, and you and I love the same Maiden albums.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Mar 13, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> I miss you where you been?!



I had this MASSIVE symphony I had to finish, my friend. Oh, and I am finally getting into the last two symphonies of Scriabin (instead of mostly just liking the first because it had a Wagner influence). All because of your reccomendations, many thanks for helping me open my eyes. Awesome composer.

And here I am, already two posts into an Off Topic subject! Sigh, I thought I could go longer....apologies.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 13, 2018)

And the more perfection I achieve in my music (perfectly capturing emotions - in exactly the way I want, with exactly the sounds I think I need) the more I feel about it and most likely also others...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 13, 2018)

Shouldn’t this thread be in the OT section?


----------



## Breaker (Mar 13, 2018)

MatFluor said:


> But IMO, live is where metal shines - and there you also see how Primal Fear or Iron Savior sounds (awesome!) vs Gamma Ray or Stratovarius (still good, but not as on the CD). Meaning the rougher production gives a huge advantage for live playing - since it's as edgy as the CD - whereas ultra-clean bands lack the huge production thing, and sound thin or sometimes "bad" (if you know what I mean).



I have to disagree about Gamma Ray as I think that they have always managed to translate their more bombastic studio production into a more rockish sound when playing live. Especially when compared to Helloween's live concerts with click tracks and super low stage volumes.

And yes, I think we are little OT


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 13, 2018)

Breaker said:


> I have to disagree about Gamma Ray as I think that they have always managed to translate their more bombastic studio production into a more rockish sound when playing live. Especially when compared to Helloween's live concerts with click tracks and super low stage volumes.
> 
> And yes, I think we are little OT



Hard to argue with a person bearing an Accept user name.


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## Ashermusic (Mar 13, 2018)

Striving for perfection and embracing imperfections are not antithetical. It is human.


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 13, 2018)

Striving for "perfection" means you'll NEVER finish a track...


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## novaburst (Mar 13, 2018)

InLight-Tone said:


> Striving for "perfection" means you'll NEVER finish a track...



It is true that it may take longer if you set high goals, 

Learning from mistakes to do a better job next time is the journey to perfection, 

People who travel the road to perfection end up doing amazing things on the way not only composers but others too have you ever seen those that do gymnastics in front of the judges how high they spin around in the air after they spring off the wooden hourse and land perfect on there feet with out one mistake, then see all the judges have no choice but to give him or her a perfect 10

But before that performance do you know how many mistakes they made how many times they did not make it in the finals, how many bones they broke, but they were moved by one thing, I have got to do better, years and years of training to get it right, until finally they them selves can't believe someone is putting the gold medal around there neck.

It's how we are built I don't think anyone can be satisfied knowing you can do better.


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## InLight-Tone (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm personally not impressed by the extreme pressure of "being perfect" in gymnastics or otherwise. That competitive pressure is debilitating at best and sucks the fun and joy out of the experience and thus LIVING.

I'm not saying sloppiness, but "good enough". 80% percent of the way there is fine by me, as the masses won't notice the 20% anyways.

NOTHING in LIFE that humans do is really that important in the long run, including MUSIC! Most just would like to be able to pay the bills composing to take care of the unnatural demand for regular payments due instead of doing menial slave labor.

In my experience that means fairly prolific and regular content of a DECENT quality. Striving for perfection if you want to get paid doing music is a recipe for homelessness...


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## robgb (Mar 13, 2018)

novaburst said:


> There is such thing as perfection and yes you should strive for it until you get it.


No, there isn't. And if you spend your time striving for it, you'll never complete your work, because you'll never achieve it. Many artists have fallen to the pursuit of perfection. There comes a point that you just have to say, okay, I've done the very best I can with this piece, it's time to let it go and move on to the next one. Any artist who thinks he or she HAS achieved perfection is either an enormous egotist or is not very good. Maybe both.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Mar 13, 2018)

"Art is never finished, only abandoned."
Leonardo Da Vinci.
Or was it Michael Bay ? Can't remember.


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## TimCox (Mar 13, 2018)

If you treat the journey to perfection as a constant learning process you will always grow and develop. The drive for perfection in that sense is how we get better. It's when you let that drive actually stunt your growth that the quest for perfection becomes a negative thing.

Conversely, telling yourself you'll never get there and just be happy with what you do can stunt your growth equally as much.


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## novaburst (Mar 13, 2018)

robgb said:


> Any artist who thinks he or she HAS achieved perfection is either an enormous egotist or is not very good. Maybe both.



So many times post get miss read and interpretation is wrong 

I find it quite silly


Good luck


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## schatzus (Mar 13, 2018)

Being overrated is perfect.. and boring. Geez...


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## DSmolken (Mar 13, 2018)

Complaining about thread titles is generally not worth it, but I think this case is an exception. This thread would be so much better if the title was "Perfection is Overrrated". Just one extra r, but reinforces the thread's point.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 13, 2018)

robgb said:


> Any artist who thinks he or she HAS achieved perfection is either an enormous egotist or is not very good. Maybe both.


...so, I'm not allowed to to write a track and find that everything is perfect when I'm done with it... without being an egoist? In the end it comes down to tastes. Perfection is mostly sunjective anyway. And if there are people who are lucky enough to be able to write exactly the music that they personally want to write and hear - good for them. I think if you are allowed to think of music by others as perfect you may as well think that about your own stuff, as long as it is genuine. Opinions you can have about others you can also have about yourself, everything else seems pretty restrictive to me.


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## robgb (Mar 13, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> ...so, I'm not allowed to to write a track and find that everything is perfect when I'm done with it... without being an egoist?


If it's "perfect" for you, yes. But as you say, perfection is subjective. Which is why pursuing it is pointless. As I said, strive instead to do the very best you can. 
"The principle mark of genius is not perfection but originality, the opening of new frontiers." ~Arthur Koestler


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## robgb (Mar 13, 2018)

novaburst said:


> So many times post get miss read and interpretation is wrong


I know the feeling. Welcome to the Internet.


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## Sears Poncho (Mar 13, 2018)

I am perfect, I am Nomad. You are the creator, Roykirk.


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## schatzus (Mar 13, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> I am perfect, I am Nomad. You are the creator, Roykirk.


Love it! Perfect...


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## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 13, 2018)

robgb said:


> If it's "perfect" for you, yes." ~Arthur Koestler


I'm curious as to why I can think of the work of others as being perfect but not think that of something I made? What a great thing it actually would be to be able to do a thing exactly the way one appreciates it.


----------



## robgb (Mar 13, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> I'm curious as to why I can think of the work of others as being perfect


Do you really think that?
Again, like you said, it's subjective.
But I don't believe anything is perfection. Every work of art has flaws, and sometimes those flaws are what make it great.
Really, you're beating a dead horse here. I think my original post was pretty clear in its meaning.
Enjoy the rest of your day.


----------



## Pantonal (Mar 13, 2018)

Rodney Money said:


> I personally believe that it's based on the lost of his first wife.


If I remember correctly the Chaccone was first heard in December of 1723. Interestingly the Fantasia and Fugue in G minor was first heard in November of the same year when Bach auditioned for the post of organist in Hamburg. He didn't get the job because the competition was better at "preluding with thalers" (German currency of the time). The Fantasia is also a very emotional work and quite possibly the first piece to use the diminished seventh chord as a modulatory pivot.

For those who don't know the story, in June of 1723 Bach left with his boss on a business trip that took about 5 weeks. When he returned he found that his wife had died from an illness, had been buried and his children were living with an uncle.


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## Casiquire (Mar 13, 2018)

This is an interesting conversation that seems to involve two groups of people with clashing definitions of perfection. In my opinion, perfection doesn't mean literally flawless everything, it means flawless execution of my vision. Between live players and samples there will never be absolute pristine final mixes all the time, but that means a level of character that's maybe perfect for the project.

It's not egotistical to think you've reached that point


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Mar 14, 2018)

robgb said:


> Do you really think that?
> Again, like you said, it's subjective.
> But I don't believe anything is perfection. Every work of art has flaws, and sometimes those flaws are what make it great.
> Really, you're beating a dead horse here. I think my original post was pretty clear in its meaning.
> Enjoy the rest of your day.


Hm, OK - you generally do not consider anything to be perfect... then the thread title would be "perfection doesn't exist". One of the things important here is of again subjectivity. For me there are a few (but truly very few) things (music and beyond) that are just entirely perfect, without any flaw. (my definiton of perfection also doesn't exclude flaws - some flaws like noises in samples for example can in some cases enhance realism and thus make a mock-up more perfectly realistic for example).
But of course there is also IMO a difference between perfection and _absolute perfection_. I may consider something to be so great that I'm willing to look over a few minor niggles and call it perfect. I'd the agree not being able to be happy before this absolute and utter perfection is reached is often more damaging than good.
Btw: I would never beat you!  Greetings....


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Mar 14, 2018)

I still think this thread has little to do with Sample Talk. Moderators?


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## Batrawi (Mar 14, 2018)

robgb said:


> Trying to find a sample library that perfectly represents every articulation of an orchestra, or guitar, or whatever, is a fruitless exercise.



I think looking for a perfect library is totally fair since we will play it imperfectly anyway.
Just like trying to find a good real instrument.


----------



## robgb (Mar 14, 2018)

DarkestShadow said:


> then the thread title would be "perfection doesn't exist"


That can be the title of your thread on the subject. Everyone wants to be a rewriter...


----------



## TimCox (Mar 14, 2018)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> I still think this thread has little to do with Sample Talk. Moderators?



I like Embertone and Orchestral Tools stuff over most. I think they have spirit and life to them.

Problem solved!


----------



## robgb (Mar 14, 2018)

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> I still think this thread has little to do with Sample Talk. Moderators?


I'm curious. Why do you give a crap what forum this is in? Don't read it, if it bothers you. And since it's clearly about the perfection (or lack thereof) of sample libraries, I think it's just fine here. But I'm happy to let the moderators decide. By the way, I started this thread back in January. I'm surprised people are even still responding.


----------



## KV626 (Mar 14, 2018)

robgb said:


> I'm curious. Why do you give a crap what forum this is in? Don't read it, if it bothers you. And since it's *clearly* about the perfection (or lack thereof) of sample libraries, I think it's just fine here.



Most of the posts have little to do with sample libraries. Most, not all of them.


----------



## Dr Belasco (Mar 14, 2018)

Pantonal said:


> For those who don't know the story, in June of 1723 Bach left with his boss on a business trip that took about 5 weeks. When he returned he found that his wife had died from an illness, had been buried and his children were living with an uncle.



He probably wrote the very first keyboard concerto ever around 1723. 

1723 is from memory quite a special date because that's when he arrived in Leipzig. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyone who thinks about perfection should listen to Bach, although not everything he wrote was perfect. Probably.


----------



## reddognoyz (Mar 14, 2018)

whitewasteland said:


> "Art is never finished, only abandoned."
> Leonardo Da Vinci.
> Or was it Michael Bay ? Can't remember.



No Bay said, "Art is never finished, it's only ridiculously overproduced


----------



## ctsai89 (Mar 14, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> I had this MASSIVE symphony I had to finish, my friend. Oh, and I am finally getting into the last two symphonies of Scriabin (instead of mostly just liking the first because it had a Wagner influence). All because of your reccomendations, many thanks for helping me open my eyes. Awesome composer.
> 
> And here I am, already two posts into an Off Topic subject! Sigh, I thought I could go longer....apologies.



It's a great topic. I'm pretty sure Scriabin finds perfection underrated.

Poem of fire was definitely very experimental. Symphony #3 was so sexual and perfect.

How perfect of a composer he was, very underrated


----------



## robgb (Mar 14, 2018)

KV626 said:


> Most of the posts have little to do with sample libraries. Most, not all of them.


I think it's the original post that counts when choosing where to post. I could be wrong.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Mar 14, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> It's a great topic. I'm pretty sure Scriabin finds perfection underrated.
> 
> Poem of fire was definitely very experimental. Symphony #3 was so sexual and perfect.
> 
> How perfect of a composer he was, very underrated



#3 is my favorite now 

Some would argue that things are only perfect qua their imperfections.

Awright, I'm reaching! I felt bad about being so OT.


----------



## ctsai89 (Mar 15, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> #3 is my favorite now
> 
> Some would argue that things are only perfect qua their imperfections.
> 
> Awright, I'm reaching! I felt bad about being so OT.



That was the one that was as perfectly Wagnerian as it could get before he went nuts to experimenting with dissonance


----------



## Parsifal666 (Mar 15, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> That was the one that was as perfectly Wagnerian as it could get before he went nuts to experimenting with dissonance



The nuts part elevated it imo.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Mar 15, 2018)

NoamL said:


> Perfection is *underrated.*
> 
> IMO the hardest thing in the world about working with VIs and synths is having a sound in your head, sitting down and finding the instrument or preset that's "close enough" and then spending hours trying to make it match the exact sound in your head without losing track of what that originally was. The music in your head is always better than the VI...
> 
> ...



I agree. 

I just give up trying to make the VSTs sound real. I don’t know how and good enough will not cut it with the top companies seeking music.

I make what I can.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Mar 15, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> I agree.
> 
> I just give up trying to make the VSTs sound real. I don’t know how and good enough will not cut it with the top companies seeking music.
> 
> I make what I can.



You said it! I've found some surprising things from sample libraries that would NOT work at all in an actual, live orchestral context...or even within the range/timbre/volume, etc. of a sample instrument as contrasted against a real one. I've made "mistakes" with making air-fed instruments play too long, too much out of their "sweet" range...and actually thought it improved the composition in question.

When I sketched out my latest symphony, I immediately did my usual: orchestrating as I write. To do that, of course, I had to be mindful of the mistakes above. Yet, at one point I kind of threw up my hands and had to continue going on even though_* a whole movement of the symphony couldn't be played live as it was sketched*_. The composition sounded too good and was too integral to the rest of the piece as is.

I think this "composing specifically for a sample library" phenomenon isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and the purists will have to live with the daring creativity and imagination and disregard for the rules that these new (and not so new) composers bring with them.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 15, 2018)

I think when we say something is perfect, what we are really saying is it's perfect to meet our needs at that moment. One may think that Bach is perfection while the other may say bluegrass music is perfection.

The whole concept of "perfection" is intangible and senseless. 

I'd say perfection = imperfection.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 15, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> I think when we say something is perfect, what we are really saying is it's perfect to meet our needs at that moment. One may think that Bach is perfection while the other may say bluegrass music is perfection.
> 
> The whole concept of "perfection" is intangible and senseless.
> 
> I'd say perfection = imperfection.



I mean I think mozart is also perfection. You know I don't like his taste in music but I do think his music is perfect for what it is. Not that I get any ecstatic feeling for it, it's good but it's just background music for the kings and queens at dinner parties of 18th century. But it does that perfectly


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 15, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> I mean I think mozart is also perfection. You know I don't like his taste in music but I do think his music is perfect for what it is. Not that I get any ecstatic feeling for it, it's good but it's just background music for the kings and queens at dinner parties of 18th century. But it does that perfectly



Yeah, I remember you're feelings about Mozart in a past thread, I can't agree since I am very moved by his music, I mean it's not all playful in the sense you're describing, although that is one side of Mozart's personality but there is so much more. So seems like it's subjective, no?


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## Parsifal666 (Mar 15, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> I mean I think mozart is also perfection. You know I don't like his taste in music but I do think his music is perfect for what it is. Not that I get any ecstatic feeling for it, it's good but it's just background music for the kings and queens at dinner parties of 18th century. But it does that perfectly



And for the most part, that's EXACTLY why it was written (and why it sometimes turns certain people off).

That said, I think Don Giovanni and the Requiem so hold their own outside of polite and charming circles. And that's just two that spring immediately to mind, there are dozens of others...literally.

Mozart isn't exactly my favorite composer, however there are pieces by him I love very much. I can only deal so much with that almost everpresent second-to-third turnaround thing he ends way too many phrases with. Pieces like his concerti are rife with it.

Doesn't mean he isn't one of the greatest...in fact, I think Mozart might have been the greatest melodicist whom ever lived!


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## SoNowWhat? (Mar 15, 2018)

wabi-sabi. 

...innit.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 15, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Yeah, I remember you're feelings about Mozart in a past thread, I can't agree since I am very moved by his music, I mean it's not all playful in the sense you're describing, although that is one side of Mozart's personality but there is so much more. So seems like it's subjective, no?



Anything is subjective. It's actually a lot of things that i can't stand listening to mozart's music. 

Even in his more sad kind of music I find it lacking soul and sincerity. But that's only to my ears.

Bach however, his music was full of passion, he was way past his time. 

Listen to the 2nd page of the prelude from the 4th cello suite. That sounds like late 19th century. But again that's not what I like about him and it's actually a lot more complicated than that.

Another composer i can't sit and listen to is Brahms. Extremely boring sleepy music to me.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 15, 2018)

Parsifal666 said:


> And for the most part, that's EXACTLY why it was written (and why it sometimes turns certain people off).
> 
> That said, I think Don Giovanni and the Requiem so hold their own outside of polite and charming circles. And that's just two that spring immediately to mind, there are dozens of others...literally.
> 
> ...



The greatest melodist for me - Alexander Scriabin! Check out all of his piano preludes and sonatas, etudes as well. A very close second would be Chopin. Their music is concise, no compositional fillers. Sexually attractive melodies. 

And no, it's definitely not because their music sounds similar that I put them on top 2. 

Their melodies weren't created by compositional techniques, they were created from moments of inspiration and vision, translated onto notes and paper to be played


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## ctsai89 (Mar 15, 2018)

However mozart music was not sexually attractive to my ears. 

But he's a great melodist because he's consistently perfect.

They just weren't the most memorable melodies to my ears.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 15, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Bach however, his music was full of passion, he was way past his time.



Well yes and no. Although Bach displayed his craft to the highest level and no one mastered dissonances like he did, he was more conservative in style and forms. Around his death, serious counterpoint was on the way out.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 15, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Well yes and no. Although Bach displayed his craft to the highest level and no one mastered dissonances like he did, he was more conservative in style and forms. Around his death, serious counterpoint was on the way out.



Scriabin was also conservative about forms. Aaron Copland called him out on using sonata form like composers always did and that was cliche to him.

But form does not have much to do with how good music sound. A bad melody could be placed in sonata form and stil sounds like a bad melody. 

Good form can help bring a good melody into a catharsis experience for the listener but really it is more a secondary thing to me. They're both important but good form will not stand without great melodic or interesting dissonant content (more atonal stuff)


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 15, 2018)

Yep, agree.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 15, 2018)

But if we speak of Scriabin, the difference is, he was innovative, even though using traditional forms.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 15, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> But if we speak of Scriabin, the difference is, he was innovative, even though using traditional forms.




Except he wasn't trying to be innovative for the sake of being innovative. Unlike some of the 20th century composers

It all came down to what he liked to hear. From his early works to late works, you can hear every little one bits of pieces of progress from op1 towards the last work. It was evolutionary rather than mutational. 

There is also a rumor that he had been on some kind of hallucinogen that made him perceive dissonant music as pleasant.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 15, 2018)

ctsai89 said:


> Except he wasn't trying to be innovative for the sake of being innovative. Unlike some of the 20th century composers



Oh, I have no doubt about that.


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## ctsai89 (Mar 15, 2018)

Guy Bacos said:


> Oh, I have no doubt about that.



Honestly I am sort of a perfectionist myself. Would love to hear your opinion on regards to the following though

I generally have the belief about that it is the reality of how rarely there is anyone who's into classical (or concert) music, amongst the millennials population (like myself) 

Among them (or us) there are both musicians and non musicians but very unlikely would there be anyone among them that is truly into classical music (and by that I mean they only have to fall in love with merely 1 composer's music but most of them have not) The perfectionist myself tells me that is a huge baloney due to how good classical music can be if the correct piece was chosen to be heard. 

But I observe and suspect that the reason to it is because mozart has been repeatedly put at the fore front and is synonymous with "classical music". People around my age don't find that "cool" or "impressive". The older generation (65 years or older as of today) however, are more likely to be the opposite. 

I don't think the "dumbing down of the next and next generations" theory is really accurate because beautiful music in the end is still beautiful even to untrained ears. 

The people that I know who like classical music at the same time who also weren't music majors (because let's eliminate bias and by the way this is very few them) seem to always list composers like Brahms and mozart as their favorite composers. I also sense that they don't "love" it. Most of them don't even care about music all that much and aren't convicted by any composer's music that they claim to "be into" the same way Scriabin has convicted me so harshly. Or the same way Ravel's music has convicted you so much. It's just that I have serious doubts that they actually love Brahms and mozart to the point they would kill to want to make music that is influenced by their favorite composers

Now here's another barrier, its that music historians tend to paint Scriabin as this crazy composer who was extremely innovative and sadly most of his earlier works aren't viewed as important as his lates. making it very difficult for anyone to get into Scriabin. A lot of people care about music, they go to EDM festivals and claim some DJs gave them feelings rapture (even without drug) so I'm pretty positive that if they spent enough time with Scriabin' earlier works they would be into it just the same way they could feel listening to some EDM that has huge build up tensions and drops. But due to musicologists spend even more time talking about composers who had already been given enough attention, and making potentially attractive music more not on the front line of the concert music genre, we are almost doomed as a society that classical music is in decline and it's declined further than ever. 

Just a pet peeve of mine due to that there is a more perfect world in my head which is not the reality.


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