# Best Sample Libraries For John Williams / Star Wars Orchestra? (Old Movies & New Rise Of Skywalker)



## Fregtonmasdor (Jan 5, 2020)

Best sample libraries for the John Williams orchestra? Mostly to resemble the old Star Wars movies and the new Rise Of Skywalker movie soundtracks. I think CineBrass would be great for the brass section, but I'm not sure about the other instruments, what do you guys think?
Also, anyone composed a star wars track using the libraries? Including the choir as well.
Such as the one "Approaching the Throne" from Rise Of Skywalker.


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## Steve Wheeler (Jan 5, 2020)

From the demos I've heard, BBC sounds quite good for this type of sound. I don't have it personally, but that's the impression I got from what I looked at. Might have to supplement with some additional brass for the louder dynamics on some instruments, as I seem to recall it's not as geared towards that. Great sounding lib though.


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## davidson (Jan 5, 2020)

The man you want to ask is @Blakus He's the guy responsible (in part) for this little number




He has some info on his site https://www.blakus.com/studio/

As far as anything else JW, including orchestration, @mverta is your man.


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## RogiervG (Jan 5, 2020)

choices are huge in that regards.. you could go for a one time shop (all inclusive library), or mix all kinds of libraries together, each with their specialities.
Both have pro and cons. But remember there is no ONE itsthebestofallandwilldoalliwantwheniwantit library exisiting.

BBCSO as Steve mentioned is good, but the brass is the weakest point of this library (especially the horns and trombones in the higher dynamics) So not the best options out there, but a good one nevertheless.

You could when mixing an machting, seek per instrument section: e.g. strings, brass, woods, percussion, choir
Then find per section the ones you like the sound of, and has what you need in terms of abilities.


Some examples (there are many many many many more)

Strings: CSS, Afflatus chapter1, HWS, Soaring strings, SCS...
Brass: CSB, HWB, Cinebrass, Adventure brass, Century Brass.
Woods:Berlins woods, upcoming CSW, CineWoods

Anyway.. you get the idea.. there are many many many more options, all wonderful sounding in their own rights.. These i gave you are JUST some examples, to give you an idea about the many options.
And i did not even go into the soloist options available, like e.g. the Sample and audio modeling options, aaron venture, CH, Embertone, Fluffy Audio etc etc etc.


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## Levon (Jan 5, 2020)

Almost pulled the trigger on BBCSO for this very reason after hearing Paul Thomson’s mock-up of the opening few bars of the main Star Wars theme. BBCSO does sound very good indeed albeit I do have some reservations about the brass sounds. I suspect I will eventually buy though.


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## lux (Jan 5, 2020)

"Engaging the Fleet & The Escape" by Mike Verta sold me immediately on Adventure Brass for this type of brass movements. The library reacts like almost nothing else to flourished and complex orchestrations.


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## Hanu_H (Jan 5, 2020)

I think there is not one single library that will get you there. That style of writing is really demanding for the samples. CineSamples libraries are recorded at Sony, it's the same place that JW has used in many of his scores and I think CineBrass and CinePerc would be my top choices for JW sound in brass and percussion. But for really soft brass you need to look elsewhere, maybe even Sample Modelling Brass could work as a solo library? I am not sure if CineStrings and CineWinds are agile enough for it though. I don't have the strings and the woodwinds, so can't really comment on those but maybe something like Berlin Woodwinds or VSL would be better for woodwinds? I really love how Soaring Strings legato sounds in JW type melodies. And Adventure Strings sound great in the fast and nimble backgrounds.

So to sum it up with the libraries I own, I would use Soaring Strings, Adventure Strings and LASS for strings. VSL, Auddict and Hollywoodwinds for woodwinds. CineBrass, Adventure Brass and Sample Modelling Brass for brass. And CinePerc for percussion.


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## Hanu_H (Jan 5, 2020)

Check out Commanding the Fleet demo from here: https://www.musicalsampling.com/soaring-strings/


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 5, 2020)

it's absolutely neigh impossible to have a 1 size fits all for JW, but face it - I can count the number of composers on this forum that can even attempt to write in his style on 1 hand. 

that said, for a 7-9 trilogy sound, Berlin brass, mixed with JXL brass. 

bww legacy or sww + bww legacy

strings is going to be whatever amalgamation that you like, I prefer lass + Berlin, although I've strongly considered Hollywood strings + Berlin. plenty of excellent string libraries, so whatever works with your workflow

perc? cine perc, berlin perc. 

key with brass and woodwind is having individual voices


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## NoamL (Jan 5, 2020)

The main things that characterize his sound (apart from, yknow, being an extremely literate composer, arranger, orchestrator and pianist  ) are

1. John writes for what musicians can do not what samples can do
2. He writes sheet music not MIDI
3. He doesn't write to an invariant click

A good example is all the material in the climax here at 3:02



He's not worrying about creating a plethora of unique parts that need to be mocked up - including the fact that nothing is copy pasted from one measure to the next, it's constantly new material - and he's not worrying about the inevitable seesaw MIDI effect of what he wrote for the violas, etc. It's all just notes on paper, perfectly simple for all the musicians, and it breathes because they follow his conducting.

I did a mockup of one his cues from Harry Potter 2, together with @Grim_Universe who mixed it. You can listen to it here



It definitely falls short of the real thing which shows how liberating it is NOT to have to write for samples.

One thing I can say to steer you in a good direction, is if you want the "JW sound" in your orchestra start with the lineup of musicians, that's the MOST important thing.

*String section* should be about 50 to 65 players - larger is better for his Star Wars sound - that would be 16 Violin I, 14 Violin I, 12 Violas, 10 Cellos, 8 Basses. And you also want to be able to write divisi when needed so you need another strings setup with half this size, not necessarily the same library.

*Woodwind section* should be winds in threes, with very strong and capable soloists, and as many good auxiliary winds (particularly piccolo, cor anglais, alto flute, and bass clarinet are important) as you can get.

*Brass section *should be 4 individual horns, 3 individual trumpets, 2 tenor bones, 1 bass bone, 1 tuba, together with some samples representing unison ensembles of those sizes (like 3 trumpets playing together). You can increase that ensemble to 6 horns, 4 trumpets, maybe 5 low brass if you want, but JW very rarely writes for anything larger than these ensembles and neither do other composers coming from the classical orchestration tradition.



Something I've noticed recently is libraries seem to be going in the opposite direction. All the marketing hype is about convincing you that you should make do with a virtual ensemble of 40, 35, even 30 string players for your "Hollywood" sound, meanwhile brass libraries are becoming ridiculous with products that let you write for 6 trumpets, a dozen trombones, etc.


_From the perspective of writing like JW_, the combinations of instruments that certain companies are encouraging you to buy are INSANE.

The roster of instruments that sounds amazing together in a large real life ensemble was nailed down by composers like Stravinsky, Ravel and Holst at the beginning of the 20th century. Since then, composers who were asked to imitate that sound in film scoring, like Korngold, Tiomkin, Rosza, did nothing to rock the boat. They used the same setup (count the brass players here):



And so did John Williams when he got Star Wars and was asked to write like Rosza and Korngold 

Another composer steeped in the classical tradition is Don Davis, sadly he doesn't write film scores any more, but here's another example of how you can get a TOWERING brass sound from just that traditional setup. He has 6 horns, 4 trumpets, 4 trombones and tuba in this score:



Similar brass dimensions for this amazing score by Henry Jackman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTx4h_zwsSw
There is NO point to having twelve trombones or twelve horns in an ensemble like that. Now, what you can do when you record the instruments separately and combine them in a computer is limited only by your imagination  so there is nothing wrong with writing for those ensembles



it should just have a purpose and an artistic conscience behind it, which of course Hans always does in his scores. But then somehow that became the "new standard" for "cinematic" music which I don't think even he intended.

EDIT: the funny thing is HZ himself says it's the craziest brass section ever, because he has taste, and now people write for larger ensembles than that like it's nothing.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 5, 2020)

NoamL said:


> The main things that characterize his sound are
> 
> 1. John writes for what musicians can do not what samples can do
> 2. He writes sheet music not MIDI
> ...



don't lie, he wanted 66 tubas, trombones, 300+ string section. 

I'll never be a good film score hobbyist until 8dio releases a 66 contrabass clarinet


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## ism (Jan 5, 2020)

8dio Agitato, while a difficult library and defiantly not suitable as a first library, is explicitly designed to get certain types of soaring Williams (and other golden age) styles. 

Also - some of the Harry Potter scores were recorded in AIR Lyndhurst where Spitfire Symphonic Winds was recorded, very possibly with the same musicians. And while I'm no expert in Williamsesque orchestration, they really do feel to me like they have the right feel for that kind of filmic fantasy winds. 

( I think that technically, the Williams scores for the first 2 potter fils were recorded in Abbey Road, but the particular filmic feel of the woodwinds seems pretty consistent after they shift to AIR in (I think?) the third film? Could be wrong here).


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## shawnsingh (Jan 5, 2020)

NoamL said:


> The main things that characterize his sound (apart from, yknow, being an extremely literate composer, arranger, orchestrator and pianist  ) are
> 
> 1. John writes for what musicians can do not what samples can do
> 2. He writes sheet music not MIDI
> 3. He doesn't write to an invariant click



+1 This is key. I think it's actually a lot less important to find a library recorded in the same space as past Williams works, and more important to find libraries that you think you'll be able to program the most agile, nuanced, versatile, expressive ways. Because to try and imitate Williams, it will usually not work to "compose for the samples".


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## CT (Jan 5, 2020)

ism said:


> 8dio Agitato, while a difficult library and defiantly not suitable as a first library, is explicitly designed to get certain types of soaring Williams (and other golden age) styles.
> 
> Also - some of the Harry Potter scores were recorded in AIR Lyndhurst where Spitfire Symphonic Winds was recorded, very possibly with the same musicians. And while I'm no expert in Williamsesque orchestration, they really do feel to me like they have the right feel for that kind of filmic fantasy winds.
> 
> ( I think that technically, the Williams scores for the first 2 potter fils were recorded in Abbey Road, but the particular filmic feel of the woodwinds seems pretty consistent after they shift to AIR in (I think?) the third film? Could be wrong here).



The first score was at AIR.


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## Zee (Jan 6, 2020)

NoamL said:


> There is NO point to having twelve trombones or twelve horns in an ensemble like that. Now, what you can do when you record the instruments separately and combine them in a computer is limited only by your imagination  so there is nothing wrong with writing for those ensembles


A friendly reminder that many German composers wrote for larger brass section than the standard 4/3/3/1 even adding off stage musicians to augment their section it's not about the numbers here one trombone can still overpower a large string section it's about composers sprinkling f's over their brass score like it's a free halloween candy


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 6, 2020)

Zee said:


> A friendly reminder that many German composers wrote for larger brass section than the standard 4/3/3/1 even adding off stage musicians to augment their section it's not about the numbers here one trombone can still overpower a large string section it's about composers sprinkling f's over their brass score like it's a free halloween candy


those are fightin words, are you saying fortississississiimo 78 horns isn't free candy?!


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## Zee (Jan 6, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> fortississississiimo 78 horns isn't free candy


Sacrilegious right  ?


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## shawnsingh (Jan 6, 2020)

It finally makes sense. Halloween didn't catch on in Germany until about 25 years ago, right? And that's just around the time that scores started to break away from the traditional orchestral setups...


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## ism (Jan 6, 2020)

shawnsingh said:


> +1 This is key. I think it's actually a lot less important to find a library recorded in the same space as past Williams works, and more important to find libraries that you think you'll be able to program the most agile, nuanced, versatile, expressive ways. Because to try and imitate Williams, it will usually not work to "compose for the samples".



Very true, on one level. 

But i also think that its possible to make simpler works in the spirit of at least certain aspects of Williams (or whoever) that capture something of, for instance, the sound. And that are possible with libraries like SSW which is all about capturing that very particular film sound in the same space and with the same musicians as film scores.


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## borisb2 (Jan 6, 2020)

That came a lot closer than BBCSO in my opinion:


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 6, 2020)

ism said:


> Very true, on one level.
> 
> But i also think that its possible to make simpler works in the spirit of at least certain aspects of Williams (or whoever) that capture something of, for instance, the sound. And that are possible with libraries like SSW which is all about capturing that very particular film sound in the same space and with the same musicians as film scores.


I agree. Going full tilt for that 100% JW sound is always going to be an epic and expensive time sink, especially if you're going to be chasing the expressiveness and emotion found in his scores.

If the OP is starting from scratch, I'd recommend a wet "all in" library (e.g BBCSO) with the right sort of section size. That'll prevent a lot of overthinking and get some music written in the JW ballpark right away. Add libraries after to fill the holes that need filling.


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## jaketanner (Jan 6, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> You could when mixing an machting, seek per instrument section: e.g. strings, brass, woods, percussion, choir
> Then find per section the ones you like the sound of, and has what you need in terms of abilities.


This method works, but only if you are pretty savvy and know how to adjust the reverb for each so that they all sound like they're in the same space. I've heard a difference between using separated libraries, and libraries from one developer...it really does help with the cohesiveness of the sound.


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## pawelmorytko (Jan 6, 2020)

I'm surprised hardly anyone's mentioned the Berlin Series, I wouldn't know as I don't own them, but from some of the demos it really has that John Williams sound, so it might be worth looking into that.


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## adg21 (Jan 6, 2020)

davidson said:


> The man you want to ask is @Blakus He's the guy responsible (in part) for this little number
> 
> 
> 
> ...





It's the Star Wars theme to the chords from that Coldplay song


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## JEPA (Jan 6, 2020)

EWHO GOLD few ours (6 hours) on sale! $221 at Everyplugin.com did this:



it's a shame my wife didn't supported me with this one... :( .....


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## musicalweather (Jan 6, 2020)

I've always liked this guy's mockup of the Star Wars theme. Not sure what sample library he's using, but I suppose one could find out. Maybe he's even on this forum.




Edit: Oh, I think he is. @BenHicks So what did you use on this mockup?


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## NoamL (Jan 6, 2020)

musicalweather said:


> I've always liked this guy's mockup of the Star Wars theme. Not sure what sample library he's using, but I suppose one could find out. Maybe he's even on this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




ok wow. This is the best one I've ever heard.


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## Arksun (Jan 6, 2020)

davidson said:


> The man you want to ask is @Blakus He's the guy responsible (in part) for this little number
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Blakus is superb, mock up orchestral work doesn't get much better than his stuff, though the video you linked to had the audio summed to mono so doesn't really do it its full justice  here's stereo version:



He also made this absolutely stunning Star Wars themed composition for Corridor Digital which is well worth a listen:




Far as I know Blakus has a huge variety of orchestral libraries and he basically pick n mixes the best elements from each depending on the project at hand.


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## ed buller (Jan 6, 2020)

JW generally has a smaller more focused sound than a lot of Hollywood. Although there does seem to be a return to that recently ! Personally I love BBCSO. Yes the horns lack a top layer ( but if enough of us bitch about it maybe they will fix it ?) but in terms of size and Balance i'd say for a one stop shop it's perfect for JW Stuff. But you do have to write liek him to get that sound. His orchestrations are very opaque. Lot's of clarity and focus and doubling is subtle. A big part of his sound is that

here is a bit of jaws.


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 7, 2020)

ed buller said:


> here is a bit of jaws.


That is indeed a bit of jaws. Sounds very nice and woke me up with a start this morning. That'll teach me to check the volume on the monitors..


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## davidson (Jan 7, 2020)

Arksun said:


> Blakus is superb, mock up orchestral work doesn't get much better than his stuff, though the video you linked to had the audio summed to mono so doesn't really do it its full justice  here's stereo version:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ah, so it was, thanks. I've updated my original post to the stereo version - don't want to undersell the guys work!


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## Tice (Jan 7, 2020)

I'm on a similar journey of delving into what makes John Williams' music tick. Since the OP mentioned wanting the old sound from the original movies, I'd want to mention that those were recorded in Anvil Denham studios. It was quite an intimate space and recording which was a big part of why it sounded the way it did. But I've also learned just how much it matters how Williams orchestrates to begin with. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, he doesn't deviate from the classical orchestra setup, so he doesn't have that much brass to work with. But it's the compositions that make it sound epic, not the amount of brass he had. Another thing is that you're going to have to micro-manage the heck out of every single note. Williams' music is a performance. And you really need to think like an instrument player to make it sound like that.
Long story short: once you have the samples to represent a classical orchestra, of any company, the most that can be gained is how you compose and how you micro-manage the notes and the space/mixing. It's less about the samples than you might think.


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## Tice (Jan 7, 2020)

P.S., don't forget to also micro-manage your tempo track. As mentioned before; Williams doesn't write to an unchanging tempo.


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## Matt Hawken (Jan 7, 2020)

I write some 'fan-fic' Star Wars music and I mostly use just East West's Hollywood Orchestra for everything, though _Look Out For That Asteroid _was a demo for 8Dio's Symphonic Shadows library so that's about 50/50 EW/8Dio. I'm afraid I don't have any examples with choir in. 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMud7IFicco ((If you want to watch the Rogue One trailer with the video, click here.))

I balanced my template using the prequel trilogy scores as a guide (so that's Abbey Road Studio 1, LSO, Shawn Murphy's mix). Something I noticed is that the strings in those mixes are very lush and dark and the brass is panned quite wide. In the newer scores, recorded in LA, the strings are very much brighter and the brass is too. I'm not sure how much of that is due to differences in the studio/musicians/hardware across the pond or how much is just mixing trends changing over 20 years. 

Anyway, I think you could get this sound with almost any orchestral library really because I think the magic Williams sound is more in the harmonies and orchestration, then a bit of reverb slosh for that 'movie' sound. Currently I use R2 for that (the obvious Star Wars reverb!) but I've also used RC48 a lot in the past too as I find it has a brighter, less dense tail which can help for mixing dense orchestral material. 

Hope this helps, any other questions, ask away. I'm a massive Star Wars music geek and I absolutely love attempting the JW style!


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## Mattia Chiappa (Jan 7, 2020)

Sometime ago I worked on a Star Wars template. Nobody mentioned it yet but I got some half decent results with SM. It's my go to library for that kind of agile brass writing with lots of different articulations. This template is a bit bright for my taste now but here you go.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6321tmmz9yd3fir/New TEMPLATE_v.06.5 (End Titles).mp3?dl=0


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## Alex Fraser (Jan 7, 2020)

Matt Hawken said:


> I write some 'fan-fic' Star Wars music and I mostly use just East West's Hollywood Orchestra for everything, though _Look Out For That Asteroid _was a demo for 8Dio's Symphonic Shadows library so that's about 50/50 EW/8Dio. I'm afraid I don't have any examples with choir in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, Admiral Ackbar. Taken from us before his time..
(Impressive work by the way! I very much enjoyed it.)


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## John R Wilson (Jan 7, 2020)

Matt Hawken said:


> I write some 'fan-fic' Star Wars music and I mostly use just East West's Hollywood Orchestra for everything, though _Look Out For That Asteroid _was a demo for 8Dio's Symphonic Shadows library so that's about 50/50 EW/8Dio. I'm afraid I don't have any examples with choir in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Impressive work, certainly enjoyed listing. Do you use EWHO for most compositions you do and as your main orchestral sample library?


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## novaburst (Jan 7, 2020)

Hanu_H said:


> think there is not one single library that will get you there. That style of writing is really demanding for the samples.


 I think you would want a bit from more than one library but would put this down to personal taste. 

Nevertheless I think if you were to use just one orchestral library I am sure listener's want be questioning that especially if you nail it.

I think.it is more down to skill and usage rather than tone.


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## shawnsingh (Jan 7, 2020)

Not certain if I'll have time, but I hope to try doing more Williams inspired practice stuff over the next few years. Libraries that i'm planning to use:

Berlin brass as the core, JXL for a power layer or alternate tone, infinite brass for another layering options. VSL woodwinds, Hollywood woodwinds, strings I'm not as certain yet, but I will start with Hollywood strings and Berlin strings. I am waiting on a breath controller and I may try to do a "build your own string ensemble" approach with SWAM and Berlin first chairs to see if it's fast enough workflow.

I've prototyped the mix of the brass and strings and I'm comfortable that they'll sound like they're all in the same space. VSL woodwinds I didn't confirm yet but I think they should be able to get mixed to match too.


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## jamieboo (Jan 7, 2020)

Matt Hawken said:


> Currently I use R2 for that (the obvious Star Wars reverb!)



Can I ask why R2 is the obvious Star Wars reverb?
I write dense, wannabe Williamsy music, and something's never quite right on the production side. I use EW Spaces (So Cal sectional reverbs) and it sounds ok, but if there's something that may be more suited to the sound I'm after then I'm very keen to hear about it!

Thanks.

btw, I also use EWHO.


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## jononotbono (Jan 7, 2020)

Arksun said:


> Blakus is superb, mock up orchestral work doesn't get much better than his stuff, though the video you linked to had the audio summed to mono so doesn't really do it its full justice  here's stereo version:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Blake is seriously talented. The disgraceful things I'd do in life to get my hands on the Cubase project for his ROS trailer


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## gussunkri (Jan 8, 2020)

jamieboo said:


> Can I ask why R2 is the obvious Star Wars reverb?
> I write dense, wannabe Williamsy music, and something's never quite right on the production side. I use EW Spaces (So Cal sectional reverbs) and it sounds ok, but if there's something that may be more suited to the sound I'm after then I'm very keen to hear about it!
> 
> Thanks.
> ...


You’re overthinking it I guess...
Think about droids.... R2...


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## jamieboo (Jan 8, 2020)

gussunkri said:


> You’re overthinking it I guess...
> Think about droids.... R2...


Oh for goodness sake. I'm a fool!


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## Matt Hawken (Jan 10, 2020)

jamieboo said:


> Can I ask why R2 is the obvious Star Wars reverb?



Luke keeps yelling about it whenever he flies his X-Wing, that's endorsement enough for me.


novaburst said:


> I think.it is more down to skill and usage rather than tone.



I complete agree! Creative writing, good orchestration and programming, then a decent mix at the end and you can make pretty much any sample library sound convincing. I have the advantage of playing in orchestras on various instruments all my life so the orchestral medium is kind of baked into my bones by now.

The tip about having a flexible tempo map is really important too, JW scores have a LOT of flex in them due to mostly being done off-click.

My top tip for writing JW-style stuff is to learn jazz piano. When I started analysing and transcribing his Star Wars scores I found so many examples of voicings and harmonies where it was really obvious that he'd played them on the piano and his jazz session-playing roots were showing through. 



Alex Fraser said:


> Ah, Admiral Ackbar. Taken from us before his time..



He was indeed! One of my favourite minor characters. I also have a theme for Kenobi half-finished and a _Fantasia and Fugue_ _for Tie-Fighters _is in the works too. Just need real work to stop getting in the way of me having fun!


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## mralmostpopular (Jan 10, 2020)

Arksun said:


> Blakus is superb, mock up orchestral work doesn't get much better than his stuff, though the video you linked to had the audio summed to mono so doesn't really do it its full justice  here's stereo version:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Blake does really awesome stuff, but his sound is more big/epic than John Williams-esque. He uses his own libraries anyway.

BBCSO with Cinebrass to supplement would probably get you a lot closer to the Williams sound. Runs patches are going to be essential, as well.


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## GPlowman (Jan 10, 2020)

I've written my own Star Wars styled tracks over the years, and I felt I had eventually exhausted what I could do with Cinebrass for example, so I took the plunge and got the new Junkie XL brass. I've already posted in that thread my thoughts on it, because I immediately took it and used it as replacement brass in a Star Wars mock-up I was in the middle of working on. Scherzo for X-Wings from the Force Awakens.

As I think it's relevant to the topic, here it is to save you searching in the JXL thread.


You will end up with more brass playing than you might typically hear (or, at least see written in the scores), but it works well with a3 Trumpets, a3 Trombones, Tuba, and a4 Horns - I added the solo trumpet on top. I'm also toying around with the main theme, have that that as a WIP below.


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## filipjonathan (Jan 10, 2020)

GPlowman said:


> I've written my own Star Wars styled tracks over the years, and I felt I had eventually exhausted what I could do with Cinebrass for example, so I took the plunge and got the new Junkie XL brass. I've already posted in that thread my thoughts on it, because I immediately took it and used it as replacement brass in a Star Wars mock-up I was in the middle of working on. Scherzo for X-Wings from the Force Awakens.
> 
> As I think it's relevant to the topic, here it is to save you searching in the JXL thread.
> 
> ...



I love the Scherzo! It's a brilliant piece of music and JXL Brass fits perfectly. That very end gets me every time!


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## markleake (Jan 10, 2020)

mralmostpopular said:


> Blake does really awesome stuff, but his sound is more big/epic than John Williams-esque. He uses his own libraries anyway.


I think this is important. Blake does a fantastic job, far better than anything I can do. But he is usually taking the themes and molding them into more of an epic style. He's not really following the John Williams playbook to the T.


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## markleake (Jan 10, 2020)

GPlowman said:


> I've written my own Star Wars styled tracks over the years, and I felt I had eventually exhausted what I could do with Cinebrass for example, so I took the plunge and got the new Junkie XL brass. I've already posted in that thread my thoughts on it, because I immediately took it and used it as replacement brass in a Star Wars mock-up I was in the middle of working on. Scherzo for X-Wings from the Force Awakens.
> 
> As I think it's relevant to the topic, here it is to save you searching in the JXL thread.
> 
> ...



I like these. But it highlights to me my main reservation about JXL Brass... they sound too thick. I assume this is because there are too many players to pull off something like this convincingly.


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## shawnsingh (Jan 10, 2020)

markleake said:


> I like these. But it highlights to me my main reservation about JXL Brass... they sound too thick. I assume this is because there are too many players to pull off something like this convincingly.



@GPlowman how much inconvenience would it be to try swapping the ensemble patches with the solo patches in the appropriate places, and seeing how it sounds? I think it could be interesting to hear. One major caveat though - the trumpet you'll probably want to disable the fff layer, and maybe even disable the ff layer too. Or, at least you'll want to reprogram the MIDI CC and note velocities to avoid those layers. The solo trumpet really gets into *extreme* overblown sound in those layers, and that actually hides its versatile non-overblown half. At some point JXL suggested us to disable those layers, and when I tried it, I realized that the solo trumpet is actually quite versatile, it's just hidden in lower velocity layers that we often don't exercise when playing around with a library.

I do regret not voicing my opinion earlier when JXL asked for our feedback before they sampled everything. I would have requested them to consider sampling at least one additional, if not two more individual solo players in situ for each instrument. For me personally, it's not as bad of a loss since I do own Berlin Brass and can fall back to that in most cases for the beautiful individual players.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 10, 2020)

markleake said:


> I like these. But it highlights to me my main reservation about JXL Brass... they sound too thick. I assume this is because there are too many players to pull off something like this convincingly.


he used all a3 patches(a4 horns) for this. I know I'll personally probably blend the a3 + solo patches for "divisi" like I did with berlin brass - it's not rocket science with samples, but doing something like 60/40 a3 v solo for ensemble and then 40/60 for triads should work. It'll be easier once OT gets the midi automation into sine, but loading multiple of the same patches in the same instance doesn't take any extra ram it doesn't matter.


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## markleake (Jan 11, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> he used all a3 patches(a4 horns) for this. I know I'll personally probably blend the a3 + solo patches for "divisi" like I did with berlin brass - it's not rocket science with samples, but doing something like 60/40 a3 v solo for ensemble and then 40/60 for triads should work. It'll be easier once OT gets the midi automation into sine, but loading multiple of the same patches in the same instance doesn't take any extra ram it doesn't matter.


Yes, this could well work. But it does seem like the library is designed to have that more ensemble sound, which makes it more appropriate for certain works than others. Many of the tracks with JXLB I've listened to I've noticed this issue. I don't have the library, but I'm thinking it makes JXLB harder to use for the agile brass style needed for Williams.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 11, 2020)

markleake said:


> Yes, this could well work. But it does seem like the library is designed to have that more ensemble sound, which makes it more appropriate for certain works than others. Many of the tracks with JXLB I've listened to I've noticed this issue. I don't have the library, but I'm thinking it makes JXLB harder to use for the agile brass style needed for Williams.


I was under the impression that the ensemble sizes were a dual purpose for being both "divis" sections for that mega brass, and also having more traditional section sizes. While JXL was a big part of the library and it's development, no doubt the usefulness intended to extend to the rest of the OT crew, who use their own products day in and day out anyways. 

I know personally, as sine develops and other libraries added in, I'll be using a hybrid between berlin brass and JXL brass. The dynamic range is quite remarkable, and it's awesome having it under my fingers. Berlin brass really wasn't that lacking for top dynamics, as long as you built those aggressive phrases with shorts(staccatissimo/staccato/marcatos) but these go further, and have the consistency of being on the sustains.

If you want to mock up newer trilogy, jxl is your best bet both due to the dynamics, and the extended section sizes(I think I saw like 7 bones total in the TFA scoring clips, likely for rens theme) 

If you want to mockup anything else, you're probably best off with berlin brass due to the separate players.


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## ricoderks (Jan 11, 2020)

I think you can achieve JW sound with many libraries. Its in the writing moslty anyway. With eq and reverb you can also improbe or enhance the sound ofcourse. I'm making my small new template and dit a couple balance tests. Without the original scores... Trying to fake that SW7 sound.
Only libraries here for now are CSS, CSB and BBCSO.

Rico


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## filipjonathan (Jan 11, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> I think you can achieve JW sound with many libraries. Its in the writing moslty anyway. With eq and reverb you can also improbe or enhance the sound ofcourse. I'm making my small new template and dit a couple balance tests. Without the original scores... Trying to fake that SW7 sound.
> Only libraries here for now are CSS, CSB and BBCSO.
> 
> Rico


Ah that sounds so lovely!


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 11, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> I think you can achieve JW sound with many libraries. Its in the writing moslty anyway. With eq and reverb you can also improbe or enhance the sound ofcourse. I'm making my small new template and dit a couple balance tests. Without the original scores... Trying to fake that SW7 sound.
> Only libraries here for now are CSS, CSB and BBCSO.
> 
> Rico


yikes, on the first example did you use the wrong articulation for the trumpets? maybe it was stuck on a sustain or longer short articulation

tone sounds great EQ wise on most instruments, but that very first example from the attack on jakku excerpt sounds like you just have the wrong articulation on for some reason.


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## GPlowman (Jan 11, 2020)

shawnsingh said:


> @GPlowman how much inconvenience would it be to try swapping the ensemble patches with the solo patches in the appropriate places, and seeing how it sounds? I think it could be interesting to hear. One major caveat though - the trumpet you'll probably want to disable the fff layer, and maybe even disable the ff layer too. Or, at least you'll want to reprogram the MIDI CC and note velocities to avoid those layers. The solo trumpet really gets into *extreme* overblown sound in those layers, and that actually hides its versatile non-overblown half. At some point JXL suggested us to disable those layers, and when I tried it, I realized that the solo trumpet is actually quite versatile, it's just hidden in lower velocity layers that we often don't exercise when playing around with a library.
> 
> I do regret not voicing my opinion earlier when JXL asked for our feedback before they sampled everything. I would have requested them to consider sampling at least one additional, if not two more individual solo players in situ for each instrument. For me personally, it's not as bad of a loss since I do own Berlin Brass and can fall back to that in most cases for the beautiful individual players.


Unfortunately it'd take a bit too much time as I'm in the middle of a commission as well. I'd have to switch between ensemble for the a4/a3 melody lines and back to solos for the divisi. 

In the Scherzo and Main theme, I disabled fff on the trumpets - that buzz on them meant it was the only way to get them to sound better. The solo trumpet sounds...weak to me. What you're suggesting about even disabling the ff layer on the solo trumpet might help, not sure, and just compensate with volume. That could work. The shorts on the solo sound odd to me, but again, it could be the dynamic layers causing the issue. Right now just in my head from previous experience, I can't imaging the solo trumpet working as an 'ensemble' with how it sounds exposed.

The solo horn sounds great to my ears though.

The current WIP version of the main theme, which is linked below now has the fff layer on ALL instruments off so I can avoid going into that layer which isn't required in the score. It seems to 'tame' it all. It's a great feature being able to turn them off (regardless of results or not).

Ignore the strings at the end...its a WIP.








Dropbox - File Deleted


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## ricoderks (Jan 11, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> yikes, on the first example did you use the wrong articulation for the trumpets? maybe it was stuck on a sustain or longer short articulation
> 
> tone sounds great EQ wise on most instruments, but that very first example from the attack on jakku excerpt sounds like you just have the wrong articulation on for some reason.


Its actually the shortest repetition CSB can handle.
Already decided its not short enough for these kinds of fanfare-ish sounding lines...


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 11, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> Its actually the shortest repetition CSB can handle.
> Already decided its not short enough for these kinds of fanfare-ish sounding lines...


dang really? I just loaded it up and I guess you're right. 

for comparison, these are examples I made with berlin brass, showing how fast you can get "tonguing" with just using staccatissimo.


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## ricoderks (Jan 11, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> dang really? I just loaded it up and I guess you're right.
> 
> for comparison, these are examples I made with berlin brass, showing how fast you can get "tonguing" with just using staccatissimo.


Yeah this sounds way more convincing. Hope CSB will get updated with some speed control.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 11, 2020)

ricoderks said:


> Yeah this sounds way more convincing. Hope CSB will get updated with some speed control.



It isn’t realistic IMHO to expect one library to accomplsih every musical task as well as every other one. They all have things they do more well and less well.

Until of course, one of the talented developers does exactly that 😊


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## ProfoundSilence (Jan 11, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> It isn’t realistic IMHO to expect one library to accomplsih every musical task as well as every other one. They all have things they do more well and less well.
> 
> Until of course, one or the talented developers does exactly that 😊


CSB has smoother crossfades, and much more powerful dynamics on the a4 horns. that said, doesn't handle the lowest dynamics as well, and ofcourse the tone is not my favorite - but yeah, different strengths, vastly different sampling depth and price tags. 

CSS is half of the price of berlin strings for instance, but berlin strings violins I for instance has 37 articulations - more microphones, more than double the types of short articulations, and in some instances things like 24 round robins for the spiccato. Doesn't just cost more money though, it also costs more hard drive space and ram.


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## ricoderks (Jan 11, 2020)

Ashermusic said:


> It isn’t realistic IMHO to expect one library to accomplsih every musical task as well as every other one. They all have things they do more well and less well.
> 
> Until of course, one or the talented developers does exactly that 😊


I completely agree. I'm in love with the css series. But know them well enough to know their limits. These examples I posted were mainly for the 'sound' of modern williams scores. Which you can achieve with css series also imo. Just like with OT berlin series or cinesamples. Depends on the context. Combining all strengths of each library is probably always the way to go.


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## WillMah Gold (Jan 11, 2020)

Fregtonmasdor said:


> Best sample libraries for the John Williams orchestra? Mostly to resemble the old Star Wars movies and the new Rise Of Skywalker movie soundtracks. I think CineBrass would be great for the brass section, but I'm not sure about the other instruments, what do you guys think?
> Also, anyone composed a star wars track using the libraries? Including the choir as well.
> Such as the one "Approaching the Throne" from Rise Of Skywalker.



Forgive me if someone mentioned this already, but I think Andrew Barraclough (is he here too?) did wonderful mockups in the 80's JW orchestra style , almost just with EWHO exclusively. Check out his YT playlist:


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## aj_vader (Jul 1, 2020)

WillMah Gold said:


> Forgive me if someone mentioned this already, but I think Andrew Barraclough (is he here too?) did wonderful mockups in the 80's JW orchestra style , almost just with EWHO exclusively. Check out his YT playlist:




Thank you. Yes I am here!


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## JPQ (Jul 1, 2020)

ed buller said:


> JW generally has a smaller more focused sound than a lot of Hollywood. Although there does seem to be a return to that recently ! Personally I love BBCSO. Yes the horns lack a top layer ( but if enough of us bitch about it maybe they will fix it ?) but in terms of size and Balance i'd say for a one stop shop it's perfect for JW Stuff. But you do have to write liek him to get that sound. His orchestrations are very opaque. Lot's of clarity and focus and doubling is subtle. A big part of his sound is that
> 
> here is a bit of jaws.


is BBCSO? really nice all possible ways sounds,and composition who even composed it.


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## JPQ (Jul 1, 2020)

Matt Hawken said:


> I write some 'fan-fic' Star Wars music and I mostly use just East West's Hollywood Orchestra for everything, though _Look Out For That Asteroid _was a demo for 8Dio's Symphonic Shadows library so that's about 50/50 EW/8Dio. I'm afraid I don't have any examples with choir in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what this R2 reverb this is? link RC48 i think is native instruments stuff. btw nice hear Hollywood Orchestra works also softer side of orchestra.


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## Matt Hawken (Jul 1, 2020)

JPQ said:


> what this R2 reverb this is? link RC48 i think is native instruments stuff. btw nice hear Hollywood Orchestra works also softer side of orchestra.



The company used to be called Exponential Audio but they've been swallowed up by Izotope: https://www.izotope.com/en/shop/exponential-audio-r2.html

I just like it a lot, always very musical and usable. Very natural-sounding for orchestral stuff.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jul 1, 2020)

Some of it is about libraries and some of it is just creativity in how you use them, process them and get close to the original recordings. Usually, I find that a balance of dry and medium ambient libraries are a good combination. But, sometimes types of libraries are helpful too. 

I did a video of my mock-up of The Planet Krypton. You may find it useful. You can see that the choice of libraries and processing is all over the place. So, in my experience there is no 'one' solution.


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## Simeon (Jul 1, 2020)

Here is something I had fun putting together using only HALionSonic ICONICA Ensembles (by Orchestral Tools). I love the other demos above - superb!


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## purple (Jul 1, 2020)

The most important thing for that is honestly knowing your shit really well. In my opinion, the cinematic studio series is the best set of tools for that, except woodwinds where I'd get either berlin woodwinds or westgate studio woodwinds. Those are the most consistent and flexible libraries for the major sections IMO except percussion which is a huge matter of taste.

There is no sample library that "sounds like" john williams because his "sound" is not really defined in that way. His "sound" is just being really well studied in terms of counterpoint, part writing, melody writing, progression writing, orchestration, and conducting.

I've attached a mockup of "the planet krypton" from superman using those strings and brass I mentioned above. It still needs more mixing but you can hear the performance of the instruments themselves here and get an idea of whether they are what you are looking for or not.


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## purple (Jul 1, 2020)

purple said:


> The most important thing for that is honestly knowing your shit really well. In my opinion, the cinematic studio series is the best set of tools for that, except woodwinds where I'd get either berlin woodwinds or westgate studio woodwinds. Those are the most consistent and flexible libraries for the major sections IMO except percussion which is a huge matter of taste.
> 
> There is no sample library that "sounds like" john williams because his "sound" is not really defined in that way. His "sound" is just being really well studied in terms of counterpoint, part writing, melody writing, progression writing, orchestration, and conducting.
> 
> I've attached a mockup of "the planet krypton" from superman using those strings and brass I mentioned above. It still needs more mixing but you can hear the performance of the instruments themselves here and get an idea of whether they are what you are looking for or not.


Oh, I posted this without seeing the one that someone else posted on the second page. I guess this lets you compare between a couple of different instruments the same piece.


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