# NAMM Day 3



## Mike Greene (Jan 21, 2007)

Yesterday (Saturday) was my last day and I planned to post a timely report after I drove home, but my wife insisted that after being gone for three days, I first take care of my husbandly duties. So after dealing with that unpleasantness (you know, the usual _husband_ stuff: program the VCR, change the ink cartridges in the printer, . . . ) I'm now free to gab.

*Redmatica Key Map* - This was the biggest wow of the show for me, and was actually announced last year. But it's done now and has even more features than promised before. Suppose Jose hates the clarinets in all the other libraries and wants to make a multi-sample program (EXS only) of himself playing. He sets up a mic and records himself playing a bunch of notes, not necessarily in any logical order. Now, he can simply drag that single audio file onto the Key Map interface and bam! Key Map will automatically separate the notes, strip the silence, figure out the pitches (even correct the tuning if you like), make _flawless_ sustain loops if you like, and map them so you now have a complete sample patch of Jose's clarinet. All in ONE drag and drop step! Done!

And it does a ton of other cool stuff (velocity crossfades, alternatations, etc.) Pretty much anything you wish it could do - it does! There have been a few times I've made my own programs (my own banjo, some guitar patches that I loved so much that I had to sample, Julie singing "oohs" and "ahs".) Now I'll be doing it a lot more because this makes it so ridiculously easy.

*Overloud BreVerb* - These guys shared a booth with Redmatica, which is a good sign. BreVerb is a software reverb in a "tribute" to the Lexicon 960L. Mac (including Universal Binary) and PC, but no RTAS or TDM in the first version, which he swears will be available by early April. I believe him. These are the guys who built the engines for Sample Tek, T-Racks, and Amplitube. He thinks the price will be in the $200-$300 range. Listening to a reverb on the NAMM floor is pointless, so I didn't even ask.

*And then . . . *One thing about being at NAMM is you get to find out what it’s like to be a woman. At all the booths I go to, the demonstrators always sneak a look at my chest, presumably to check my name badge to see if they should care about me or not. I kinda like it. Next year I may go for the full effect and wear something with a plunging neckline.

*EastWest PreOrder* - I asked at the EW counter about a NAMM discount. The woman told me it's 10%. I was hoping for the usual 30%, but I said, “Cool, and I have until Sunday, right?”
“Yes, but you have to buy it here.”
“You mean I can’t get these at the Ilio booth?”
Now, I though that was pretty funny, but all I got from her was a blank stare. Maybe she was just annoyed because she thought I was checking her name badge too many times.

*Tascam* - I got to meet Jeff (Synthetic.)  GVI for Mac is anticipated by summer and they have a new modeled solo violin for GVI with 24 keyswitches that will be out in just weeks. I liked it, especially at the price ($99,) but I ain't buyin' nothin' til it's on Mac! I really like this whole GVI thing, by the way.

*Chicken Systems Kontakt Assistant* - I absolutely hate the Kontakt browser. The type is hard to read and it could be much more efficient. Garth to the rescue! This looks really useful, it's cheap (way under $100, and a preorder discount under $50, I think.) Ready in just a week or two.

*Camel Audio* - One important thing I do at NAMM is visit booths of products I aleady own, but have questions about. I bought Cameleon and Camel Space during some sale over a year ago, but never used them. That's a problem with me - I'm an impulse buyer. A salesman's dream. If it's a woman salesman, I'm her dream in two ways . . . (aw, give me a break, guys! I can hear you groaning from here!)

Anyway, I've heard people rave about Camel Space, but this was the first time I saw it in action. Wow! It's fantastic, as is Camel Phat and Cameleon. Camel Space and Camel Phat are effects plugins that give you instant electronica. Cameleon is sort of like Absynth, but much more intuitive. I can't even begin to explain these things, so hopefully their website (and I think he said they have a KVR forum or something?) can show the possibilities.  Like I said, these aren't new, but I'm so impressed and I think they're pretty under the radar, so I have to mention them.

*MOTU NEW Hardware* - I asked and there ain't any. (This one by request!)

*Digidesign Structure* - (Also by request!) Digi claims, and EW sorta/kinda confirms (but not officially, and not by Nick or Doug) that all the EW content, including the new VI's, will indeed be ported over to it. Digi also hinted very strongly that the two engines are related, but I don't know if I believe that. I don't see much advantage for us to having the EW libraries on Structure, by the way. Digi (or EW) is still going to probably charge the same and there will undoubtably be the same issues of dongles and locked (uneditable) megafiles. But then, if you're on PT, it could be more stable.

*Native Instruments* - There was an incident where paramedics came rushing in. It was for me because I had passed out from shock as I witnessed an NI demonstration that was informative and entertaining! They were . . . 
. . . 
. . . 
. . . 
. . . oh, sorry. I passed out again just thinking about it. The product itself is Traktor Scratch, a DJ product I won't go into since I don't think a lot of us are club DJs. There is no other NI news. As of now, there is no Komplete Care 2007 and there are no new instruments or updates we haven't already seen, though the ones in the last few months are cool.

I can't decide who now takes this year's award for lamest presentation, but out of respect, I think it should still be called, "The Native Instruments Award for Lamest Presentation: Presented to: . . . " Believe me, there are plenty of deserving contenders for this year's title, but none stood out from the pack, and not in any comically lame way like NI used to. Maybe others will have suggestions.

*EastWest Symphonic Orchestra* - First, I have to emphasize that all my EW info can be unreliable. I don't talk to Doug or Nick because (a.) I don't think they've ever liked me, and (b.) a little guy like me isn't going to get any "off the record" information from the heads of a company. Instead, I schmooze the other guys.

So anyway, it seems the orchestral stuff will be ported over probably this summer (my guess is later than that - you know the drill.) It also seems there will be no additional content in this so it will indeed just be the $49 fee!  Apparently, they're just not that close to being able to put in new content in the near future.

*And More EW* - I also get the impression that contrary to my earlier theory, they don't have a pile of other new VI's ready to immediately follow up this batch of 6. So I hereby withdraw my "EW is in crank 'em out mode" statement from NAMM Day 1. But I don't want to get too warm and fuzzy, so I hereby _don't_ withdraw my opinion that these are priced about $100 or $200 too high.

Stormdrum 2 sounds great, by the way. Oh! One other _possible_ correction. It's not yet decided whether the MIDI loop files will be playable from interface (ala Stylus RMX) or not. Right now, they are not, and in fact, the guy I taked to on Thursday said it would never be like the Stylus way. But the _Saturday_ guy I talked to is definitely better in the loop, and _he_ seems to think it's 50/50. I think they've been getting some disappointed feedback about this feature ommision from whiners like me, and maybe the feature list is being effected. These puppies are FAR from being ready, by the way. March 2007? No freakin' way.

*Broadway Big Band* - I like this more every time I hear it, so I bought it yesterday. It's a bunch of money, but the more I think about it, the more superior it is over anything else. Hopefully that opinion won't change when I get it! :mrgreen:


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## Thonex (Jan 21, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> *Redmatica Key Map* - This was the biggest wow of the show for me, and was actually announced last year. But it's done now and has even more features than promised before. Suppose Jose hates the clarinets in all the other libraries and wants to make a multi-sample program (EXS only) of himself playing. He sets up a mic and records himself playing a bunch of notes, not necessarily in any logical order. Now, he can simply drag that single audio file onto the Key Map interface and bam! Key Map will automatically separate the notes, strip the silence, figure out the pitches (even correct the tuning if you like), make _flawless_ sustain loops if you like, and map them so you now have a complete sample patch of Jose's clarinet. All in ONE drag and drop step! Done!



*THAT* is awesome!!!! I agree... this is probably one of the most important developments.... no more thousands of man hours editing, naming, and looping. Now we can focus on recording and patches. That is, of course, if it is as good as you say it is  

Thanks again for all this info Mike... you're a great contributor to this place!!

T


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## Evan Gamble (Jan 21, 2007)

Thonex @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> Mike Greene @ Sun Jan 21 said:
> 
> 
> > *Redmatica Key Map* - This was the biggest wow of the show for me, and was actually announced last year. But it's done now and has even more features than promised before. Suppose Jose hates the clarinets in all the other libraries and wants to make a multi-sample program (EXS only) of himself playing. He sets up a mic and records himself playing a bunch of notes, not necessarily in any logical order. Now, he can simply drag that single audio file onto the Key Map interface and bam! Key Map will automatically separate the notes, strip the silence, figure out the pitches (even correct the tuning if you like), make _flawless_ sustain loops if you like, and map them so you now have a complete sample patch of Jose's clarinet. All in ONE drag and drop step! Done!
> ...



Can this be used if you own K2? Since it can import exs patches I'd think so? looks like its Mac only to me though.


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## synergy543 (Jan 21, 2007)

Does K2 import EXS or maybe CDXtract converts?

Awesome report Mike - I want to read your daily column. You're too funny big guy!


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## Colin O'Malley (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks for the update. I just bought keymap. I LOVE the EXS manager and have always been very impressed by this company. If it does everything as advertised it will be a HUGE time saver. 

Colin


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## Dan Selby (Jan 21, 2007)

Another great report, Mike - much appreciated! Got any more info (or a link) on this?



Mike Greene @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> *Chicken Systems Kontakt Assistant* - I absolutely hate the Kontakt browser. The type is hard to read and it could be much more efficient. Garth to the rescue! This looks really useful, it's cheap (way under $100, and a preorder discount under $50, I think.) Ready in just a week or two.


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## Hardy Heern (Jan 21, 2007)

Hi Mike,

Thanks again, again for your report. Much appreciated.

I look forward to hearing the new, improved Giga violin. I love the Garritan Strad, except it sounds funny (strange) from time to time; totally unlike any violin sound I have in my CD collections of real violins; in concertos etc.

Everytime I raise the subject, with, _genuine_, technical interest in the underlying cause, I just get inappropriate & irrelevant 'abuse'. 

It can't be the recordings, so it must be the phase alignment? I'm looking for an alternative, having withheld my purchase during the recent Group Buy.

Cheers

Frank


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## re-peat (Jan 21, 2007)

Yes, K2 reads EXS-programs without too much difficulty. I've bought 'Keymap' yesterday and it's just brilliant. In fact, it's so brilliant it makes you squint.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks for the update Mike! Loads of very helpful information - the exs keymap sounds like a no-brainer, as is Chicken Systems Kontakt assistant. By the way Dan, here's a link for that:

http://chickensys.com/products/sw_itemi ... +Assistant


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## joaz (Jan 21, 2007)

Hey Mike
Thanks for the reports.

You have a nice way of combining entertaining and informative.

You ask me, Nick Batzdorf should sign you up for a regular column in VI mag.

"Mike Greene's Column, where he talks about....stuff. " :wink: 

regards Joe


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 21, 2007)

It would be cool if Mike covered NAMM for VI mag though he is not always politically correct. Would be refreshing though might piss off advertisers.


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## artsoundz (Jan 21, 2007)

right on. But in the end, his insightful and, for me, fairly gentle truths make a stronger industry that inevitably helps those advertisers. My vote for a regular column as a software reviewer. 

And(speaking for myself as a man w/ spectacular man-boobs-<tmi?>), I welcome his kind.


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## Rodney Glenn (Jan 21, 2007)

Thank's for your great report Mike, lots of good info and fun to read. :smile:

Kontakt assistant seems interesting indeed.

However, what really got my attention was Keymap. Too bad (for us who are on another platform that is) that it's Mac only. If they made a Windows version as well they could probably double their sales. As Frederick pointed out it seems like a no-brainer.

To all the Mac guys who might be interested in more info, here's a direct link to Redmatica's Keymap page:

http://www.redmatica.com/Redmatica/Keymap.html

R


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 21, 2007)

Wonderful candid reports Mike - thanks for being our 'honest eyes and ears' on the ground.


Rob


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## José Herring (Jan 21, 2007)

You're the best man. Can't wait for the party at your place.


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## synergy543 (Jan 21, 2007)

Doesn't Redmatica Keymap render iLOK copy protection for samples obsolete? I mean some guy who doesn't want to be locked into using PLAY without SIPs and other fine scripts could just set his sequencer to play scales at different velocities all night long. Then in the morning Keymap frees him from the confines of someone else's designated sampler. It seems that defining the platforms that others must use is what is the biggest threat to iLOK protection though. For given the choice, who would bother?


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## synergy543 (Jan 21, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> It would be cool if Mike covered NAMM for VI mag though he is not always politically correct. Would be refreshing though might piss off advertisers.


You would think. And if this were the case, then I just scared a few away. But what blows this theory out of the water is it seems there are more ads than ever on VI-Control. And we are getting so many immigrants from NS and other oppressed areas of the internet I think its time we consider putting up a fence to keep the scoundrels out. :roll: 

Of course, to spare Nick the potential damage, Mike could host a weekly story on VI.


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## StrangeCat (Jan 21, 2007)

ahh man Synergy543 is planning something :twisted: 
Redmatica Keymap looks and sounds amazing I really hope people share libs they create with this, might be able to get some nice instruments out of it.
(eating asian food writing asian music)
StrangeCat


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## kid-surf (Jan 21, 2007)

U da mang, Mike.

I too appreciate the no BS info. I mean, we're all going to find out whether this stuff is any good anyway. I trust your perspective as objective. 

I say, give an honest opinion then we grownups can decide if we agree with it...

But... NO, I will not go to bed, and you can't make me.... :razz:

PS.. I look forward to your Playgirl centerfold. It's for my wife, I swear! :razz:


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## synergy543 (Jan 21, 2007)

StrangeCat @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> ahh man Synergy543 is planning something :twisted:


I am in no way condoning sharing copy-protected libraries. I hope people respect the developers interests and I hope developers respect musicians investments. 

I'm just looking at the obvious reality here. Redmatica Keymap does open a can of worms here. And there is no SIPS with PLAY. Qlegato is not SIPs. I doubt all the Kotakt scripters will all migrate to PLAY. Suddenly there are so many different proprietary sampler players its rather daunting and leaves musicians in somewhat of a lurch with their existing investments (particularly given that they will soon all be forced to upgrade to new computer operating systems). A wiser method for developers to protect their interests would be to support both current formats as well as new ones they are offering. At the moment, it isn't clear this will be the case. There was somewhat of a balance before by having third parties create the sampler. But now every developer wants to develop on their own proprietary platform and force users to switch which is silly. However, it seems NI sort of broke the equilibrium by going into direct competition with developers. Choices are nice, but having to learn and work with the quirks of a different UI for every sample library doesn't seem like its in anybody's best interest. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. It looks like a free for all to me though.


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## StrangeCat (Jan 21, 2007)

I agree with you a 100 percent. I will probably do the upgrades for EW Libs I have but I am not into this play. I think SIPS is the bomb and only VSL VI compares to it.
The whole 64 bit Vista(vista arrg that will be a pain in the !!) has made everyone think they need to develope some new engine for there samples. Great...not.
It's nice when you have one sample engine for everyone to play in and coexsist.
Kontkat2 with scripts is more then capable of getting the job done. 
Let's see if people go WOW when PLAY is available. April? 'er May LOL
No one knows what NI is doing with K2 yet for VISTA. Also I think that New Player is way cool! OTTO and the Stradivari work nice in it.
New samples come out that we want and were forced to use there sample ENGINE...


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## José Herring (Jan 21, 2007)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> StrangeCat @ Sun Jan 21 said:
> 
> 
> > ahh man Synergy543 is planning something :twisted:
> ...



Looks like we cross posted: http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5804

I'd love your input on this topic.


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## Doug Rogers (Jan 21, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> First, I have to emphasize that all my EW info can be unreliable. I don't talk to Doug or Nick because (a.) I don't think they've ever liked me, and (b.) a little guy like me isn't going to get any "off the record" information from the heads of a company. Instead, I schmooze the other guys.



Mike, neither of us know you personally, and have no reason to dislike you, other than we frankly don't understand why you have to be so negative and condesending to companies (not just ours) that are trying to push the envelope and put years of work into creating these products and software for our customers. No one said any of these products were ready for release (same with the other companies that were previewing upcoming releases). We don't decide the timing of NAMM, and most were pleased to see what was in the pipeline.

However, because of the impression you have left here, which is the complete opposite to the overall reaction we got to the new products at NAMM, I would like to invite anyone interested in ACCURATE information to post their questions at the EW forum (www.soundsonline-forums.com). I'm sure Frederick won't mind, as there are a ton of questions that we would prefer to answer in one place.

Btw, PLAY supports scripts and has many other features not found in any other engine, and for those that need real power to run the big libraries, 64-bit is a godsend that will become apparent once the products are released, and we have ported our current libraries to PLAY (scheduled for Q2).

Reported inaccuracies ...

"the player is nothing more than a very basic Kontakt player, without scripting"

PLAY includes scripting ...

"Elsewhere they were using a guitar controller(!) to show Pianos"

Not true, as anyone that attended the EW booth will confirm. David Kole was demoing "Ministry Of Rock" and "Fab Four" with a midi guitar at the middle demo station, and "Quantum Leap Pianos" was being demo'd to the left of that station and on the main stage with a keyboard.

"So, anyway, it seems the orchestral stuff will be ported over probably this summer "

It's scheduled for April/May.

"These puppies are FAR from being ready, by the way. March 2007? No freakin' way."

All the new releases will be available March, latest April. The libraries are finished, we are just waiting for a release candidate for the software. When that happens, release will follow 3 weeks later.

"I made a few jokes at your expense, but you have to admit, showing Pianos with a guitar controller because the keyboard wasn't hooked up, the "You have to buy it here" statement, and Jordan Rudess playing Fab Four as if he were Keith Emerson playing a collection of synth patches (all of this really happened) is going to be too much of a temptation for me to resist."

See above, we weren't showing Pianos with a guitar controller. Of course the "NAMM show special" had to be purchased at NAMM!! Add Jordan Rudess to your victim list.

Anyway, I'll shut up now, this place has become poisonous to developers, I notice some of them have disappeared already.

- Doug

Btw, I agree with Kid-Surf, you don't owe us anything and we don't owe you anything, we have a mutual business interest, that's all, including hopefully an open dialog to improve the tools you use.


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## Pando (Jan 21, 2007)

Doug, what made you decide to switch platforms from NI to whaever format the Play is in (Digi's Structure?) Was it NI's lack of support, lack of NI's 64-bit capabilities, additional features available in the new platform, or the inability to sufficiently lock down the libraries in NI's format (or something else)?

What's the reason that your customers would find it advantageous to switch over to Play??


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## StrangeCat (Jan 21, 2007)

I and I don't think anyone on here that hasn't seen or been around PLAY has any idea what to expect. Of course due to your products history we can only expect greatness :mrgreen: 
Your samples Rock! you know it, check your sales LOL.
A lot of people though would like a confirmation that Kontkat2 will still be supported or is it that we will have to upgrade to the new PLAY version no matter what?
I know PLAY will most likely be great it will take advantage of VISTA the double edge sword we will all have to play with, that and tons of ram. 
Companies are looking to the future not now and the future is 64 bit, tons of ram terabyte Hard drives, and sexy ladies with long legs!

Everyone will be looking forward to not just an audio demo of the libs but a video showing off the use of articulations and how to implement them in the music in real time and in the mix....till that time it's all word of mouth and speculation.
Looking to the future.
see ya on your forums 
peace out^_-


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 21, 2007)

On a totally selfish level I am glad EW was showing 6 new products. No one else was, and at least there is stuff to talk about. 

Pando I can't speak for Doug but not having to wait on another developer to upgrade their engine has to be a huge consideration. Also they can develop the engine that best suits theur products and choose their own CP. It is not a coincidence that many major manufactuers have moved to a dongle. I am sure it is also cheaper in the long run then having to pay NI every time you do something. EW is the biggest developer, I am sure NI is hitting them pretty good.


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## Doug Rogers (Jan 21, 2007)

Pando @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> Doug, what made you decide to switch platforms from NI to whaever format the Play is in (Digi's Structure?) Was it NI's lack of support, lack of NI's 64-bit capabilities, additional features available in the new platform, or the inability to sufficiently lock down the libraries in NI's format (or something else)?
> 
> What's the reason that your customers would find it advantageous to switch over to Play??



Pando,

We found ourself in the same situation Spectrasonics found themselves in (look at the nightmare they are going through currently with Intel support for their earlier products that used the USB engine). In addition, there were features we needed to improve our instruments that were simply not forthcoming, so we decided (like many others did) it was time to develop our own engine. We started the development 18 months ago with a fairly large software team, and because new technology was on the horizon, and we were building the engine from the ground up, we were able to build that in.

The advantages are numerous, and I am already answering these questions at the EW forum, so I would very much appreciate answering any specific questions you have there.

Btw, we announced at NAMM, anyone purchasing our current NI powered products after January 18 will get a free upgrade to PLAY (if there is a PLAY version), so those customers will have two formats to choose from at that stage. For all other EW customers with NI powered products, the upgrade fee is $49, unless we add new content, then it will be more.

- Doug


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## Pando (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks Doug for taking the time to respond here. I sincerely hope that you have built enough customization options to the new sampler so you're not locking in your customers to use only what your developers program in. It's the customization options (scripting, making new instruments from existing, etc) that give a sampler its popularity and can make it the industry standard.


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## kid-surf (Jan 21, 2007)

I know this may sound strange to developers but ------ a standing ovation for their product doesn't mean crap to my career. My role is not to fawn over developers products simply because they've developed them. My role is to create. Their job is to impress people like me enough so that we drop some cash on their product. 

Pushing the envelope? I suppose A.I. is attempting to do that. Once they figure it all out and perhaps bring to market a product I don't feel is a total rip off, then I personally may even be interested to know more. But not just because they are "attempting" to push the envelope (or have in the past etc.)... and in the process are spending their time and money to do so. That's not my problem. It's also not my problem if developers present their work before it's ready to be shown--and therefor find people forming opinions based on what was "actually" presented.

In the entertainment business you only get credit/kudos for what you have 'completed well', no credit for the work you put in along the way. Period. So I personally couldn't care less what went into any these products at NAMM. Only thing that matters to me is whether or not they'll help me make more money. 

I don't owe any developer anything. And neither does Mike (or anyone else).

Jay


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## JonFairhurst (Jan 21, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> ...In addition, there were features we needed to improve our instruments that were simply not forthcoming, so we decided (like many others did) it was time to develop our own engine.


When I spoke with Gary Garritan at CES, he gave similar reasons for developing his own engine. He wanted to apply some new features that went beyond what one could do with scripts. Stuff that really needed to be written in C++.

Gary also wanted to do some things to simplify instrument use. Some people have dissed his drag-to-the-stage UI, but it's perfect for the beginner and student market - and he couldn't pull that off with the NI engine. Simple interfaces work for iPods, so why not for VIs? (For better or worse, the majority of consumers are not power users.)

In the long run we will see if the developers really want the hassle of developing and maintaining software. The current trend will probably force the players to be more flexible, pluggable and modular. They may lure the custom player guys back in due time.


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## Pando (Jan 21, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> In addition, there were features we needed to improve our instruments that were simply not forthcoming, so we decided (like many others did) it was time to develop our own engine. We started the development 18 months ago with a fairly large software team, and because new technology was on the horizon, and we were building the engine from the ground up, we were able to build that in.



After reading that, what's really strange thru all this is Ai's total embrace of NI's Kontakt. This is one fact I just can't get my mind wrapped around.


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## Evan Gamble (Jan 21, 2007)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> Gary also wanted to do some things to simplify instrument use. Some people have dissed his drag-to-the-stage UI, but it's perfect for the beginner and student market - and he couldn't pull that off with the NI engine. Simple interfaces work for iPods, so why not for VIs? (For better or worse, the majority of consumers are not power users.)









:lol:


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 22, 2007)

kid-surf @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> I don't owe any developer anything. And neither does Mike (or anyone else).
> 
> Jay



As long as we're making our living writing music and producing through computers and not live musicians, we do owe developers something, because withou them, we could not produce our music.


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## StrangeCat (Jan 22, 2007)

I was so damn happy about Celtic Winds and I feel like I owe developers my love WHAHAHA!
Hell I am So happy about RA that Shakuhachi Flute and Koto Harp(swoon) much Love!
SonicCouture Rocks the house everytime! Ahh Fixed Noise thank you for OTTO!
EastWest I use all the time! tons of Love!!!!
ArtVista I love pianos!!!!
Garritan Stradivari hmmmm Love!
NI what can I say Kontakt2 is the heart of my little studio so much LOVE!!!
so many developers so much Love!!!
Peace and Love my fellow composers 
But there tons of little guys that not many people know about that need some mentions! 
ComsoD great Cello very rich and deep much love!!!
Peace Out^_-


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## kid-surf (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter -- Respectfully... That's not the way I see it. 

But I am curious to hear what you feel it is that we owe them.

I feel if there's anything I/we can "offer" them, it's honesty. And that is what Mike presented them, if they cared to peek at this discussion amongst mostly composers. One guy's honest opinion.

Doug's sort of 'scolding' strikes me the wrong way when here I've witnessed them (Nick specifically) being condescending towards VSLs practices for years. Now Doug wishes to inform us about the ways in which we are to "appreciate" their hard work. 

Just rubs me the wrong way.

For the record -- Nick seems like a good guy. He says what's on his mind. Same as Mike did. I see no diff.

Maybe we need to discuss what the clients owe us composers. You know, stuff we'll never get. Like industry wide respect, more time, more money. As people say every day, this is a thankless industry.

Nah, I think they should just be appreciative we allow them to see us discussing openly an honestly. That helps them craft their libs to better position themselves to make the most money they can off *us*. Maybe we should charge them for this info? (I guess this is the reason why artists need agents and managers... we're too accommodation on the whole) 

PS ... I also don't believe I owe the oil companies anything. They should be thanking me for driving. That's just the way my brain works.


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## lux (Jan 22, 2007)

I dont see any negative impression in Mike's reports. I thought they were pretty interesting and informative.

Fortunately I (and other guys here) am smart (smaaart :?: ) enough to have my own opinion about things, listen demos and so on for purchasing decisions.

Most of us europeans would have been there, so thanks Mike for making us feeling closer to the event.

oh...and marketing rule 1 is "please, give a fake laugh on Mike's jokes about preorders" :smile: 

Luca


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## Colin O'Malley (Jan 22, 2007)

I think it is very hard for developers who slave over this stuff not to take criticism (or even honest feedback) personally sometimes. It is just human nature. Add the lack of inhibition the internet seems to bring about and there you have it. It makes for highly entertaining threads for the rest of us.....

I have had some experience being a part of larger sampling projects. I can honestly say I was downright wiggy at some points. I read my posts later and go "what the hell?" It becomes very personal. Still I find Mike's posts are very helpful. I think we all benefit from stopping the politically correct talk and cutting right to the point. The same goes for composition review. I'm horrible at this, but if it sucks we ought to tell people (in a nice way). My clients don't seem to have a problem telling me when my music sucks. Members on this forum speak their minds and that's what makes it worthwhile to me. 

Colin


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## Mike Greene (Jan 22, 2007)

synergy543 @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> . . . some guy who doesn't want to be locked into using PLAY without SIPs and other fine scripts could just set his sequencer to play scales at different velocities all night long. Then in the morning Keymap frees him from the confines of someone else's designated sampler. . .


I don't want to sound like a salesman for Redmatica, but they have a product called AutoSampler that will do all that for you, automatically. You set the parameters (how many velocity levels, what keyboard range, how long the notes, and what intervals to sample) and it does the rest! (I swear all three things Redmatica makes are amazing!)

This was designed for those of us who have old hardware modules with a few killer patches that we'd like to access internally in Logic. It would be impractical for taking an entire VI library because of the shear number of gigabytes you'd wind up with. But for better tweak possibilities of a trumpet here and violin there, it could be just what the doctor ordered.


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 22, 2007)

Hey Mike - not like you haven't gotten any thing better to do after the show (like catching up AND trying all your new stuff :wink: --

But could you 'briefly' summarize your experience. It is so nice to have 'one of our own's' opinion - with a special interest influence. Your reports have been invaluable.

All the best and many thanks (if you do maybe a new thread so it doesn't get buried).


(everyone keep up the donations so this site can stay as it is.) All you need to do is plop down some cash on a library that wasn't 'what you expected to be' and there you go - the value of VI contol.




Rob


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## Mike Greene (Jan 22, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> . . . we frankly don't understand why you have to be so negative and condesending to companies (not just ours) that are trying to push the envelope and put years of work into creating these products and software for our customers. . . .


On my first post from NAMM Day 1, I had said that I was uncomfortable with posting what I knew was some fairly negative stuff. That was no joke. I truly did have reservations about hitting that Send button and almost didn't.

I understand that a lot of time and money goes into these products and I don't want to negatively effect anyone's business with what are nothing more than my opinions. At the same time, many people here are my friends and if I don't think a product is happenin', I feel I need to tell them so, with the clear understanding that these are just one dude's opinions.

In EastWest's case, I don't think my criticisms were particularly harsh. Not as harsh as "VSL sounds horrible," a statement you'll recall making yourself. 

I made a few jokes at your expense, but you have to admit, showing Pianos with a guitar controller because the keyboard wasn't hooked up, the "You have to buy it here" statement, and Jordan Rudess playing Fab Four as if he were Keith Emerson playing a collection of synth patches (all of this really happened) is going to be too much of a temptation for me to resist.  

- Mike Greene


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## Rob Elliott (Jan 22, 2007)

One more kudo for Mike Greene :wink: 


I vote Mike is January's VI Control MVP. Any other supporting votes :smile: 


--quite honestly, it there wasn't this kind of honesty I would be on another forum, talking to trusted friends to obtain frank opinions about newly released libraries (which is STILL a good idea - thanks to those who put up with my PM's)



Rob


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## Mike Greene (Jan 22, 2007)

Mike's already too much of a pompous ass to start giving him any titles. He'll be unbearable then! :shock: 

But it is great we have this forum where we can really say anything (except about Frederick's wife!) with no worries about censorship.


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## artsoundz (Jan 22, 2007)

ya know... I'm pretty mch an outsider here looking in. By that I mean I'm not in the league you guys are in so I look to you guys for spot on info. So, w/regard to this thread, I'm amazed at what is considered polticially correct and rude. For me, I've really seen little of that here. Kid=surf seemed to get hot there for a minute but it didnt take long to see there is a bit of history. However, evryone takes the time in the end to be gracious and professional and it's why I hang here. 

If this is as hot as it gets, then I'm stayin'. Up north is so poltically charged and goofy it's like grade school on a bad day. Thanks to all for such incredibly good info. It's a major education and it's by far the best forum I've experienced in some time. I hope I can contribute something worthwhile someday.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 22, 2007)

I don't know if anyone noticed this about EW Play:

"Networking Support
If you still need more power, our built-in NETWORK CONTROL allows you to load instruments on other machines controlled from your host computer
No more trips back and forth between computers, no more KVR switching when loading projects
No need to buy additional software"

Now that is fantastic. Brill.


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## José Herring (Jan 22, 2007)

Network support is fantastic.

I think that a lot of devs don't see this forum for what it is. It's a shame. As users of products that a lot of us make most or part of a living off of it's important to hear the good and the bad and the ugly of every product. It doesn't really effect what I buy but it does effect how I use what I buy. Truthfully I'll probably buy all the new EW products (save fab four) as I think they'll be crucial in the future, but at the same time I like to get other people's viewpoints before and after I buy. That's what this place is all about. It's not about product or company bashing. If you look through the thousands of post you'll find mostly just honest opinions about the good and the bad of every product out there. On occasion where products to get unfairly bashed it's pretty easy to see right through that.

Jose


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## JBacal (Jan 22, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> I don't know if anyone noticed this about EW Play:
> 
> "Networking Support
> If you still need more power, our built-in NETWORK CONTROL allows you to load instruments on other machines controlled from your host computer
> ...



Does this mean that it will also stream the audio back to main computer like fx-teleport?

Best,
Jay


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## tgfoo (Jan 22, 2007)

JBacal @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know if anyone noticed this about EW Play:
> ...



If it does I think we should all give EW a round of applause. Espscially since a lot of libraries seem to be moving towards custom VI's lately hopely this will catch on with the other companies as well.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 22, 2007)

kid-surf @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> Peter -- Respectfully... That's not the way I see it.
> 
> But I am curious to hear what you feel it is that we owe them.



Let me answer you this way. 

In LA, today, less than six TV shows have live musicians. Everything else is electronic. So if you don't have sample libraries, and you want to score TV and film, there's no work for you until you get the stuff you need. This is true for composers who read and write music via notation. And, now don't take offense, it's also very true for composers who do everything by ear. How could you ever do anything recorded for orchestra or other ensembles without these libraries? 

So what all of us owe to developers are our writing careers. 

I'm not trying to be snub-nosed about it, but rock guys and other musicians who have routinely played in groups can always get their music performed. But the minute you try to write for any genre like choir, vocalists, orchestra, jazz ensembles outside of the college environment, and so on, you can work for years to get a performance. And if you doubt this, pick up a copy of _The Lives of the Great Composers_ and read how many waited years for a live performance of their work, and when it came, how often they were crucified by the press in reviews, often written by rival composers.

Now, save for an investment in yourself, and you can hear your music. Wow. What a benefit.

Developers are the key role in our production team.

Beethoven didn't need a production team. He just needed quills, ink and ruled paper. 

Speaking for myself, I need sample library developers, samplers, virtual instruments, music business production software (sequencing programs, notation programs), virtual effects libraries, retail outlets to purchase from who know ethe technology, score pads, pencils, erasers, often a recording engineer, computer tech, system supplier, intellectual property rights attorney, and the Internet.

All of this forms our team and the system by which we produce and distribute our music. Why? Because not one single person on this forum, not one, not even one, can be successful without other people. 

This forum would neither exist nor be needed without computers and developers. 

So, yes, owe developers a great deal, the minimum of which is open professional respect for bringing us tools to help us fulfill our heart's desire of being able to hear our music performed and recorded on demand.

What a joy and great blessing.

The second thing we owe developers is what we want from others - a fair chance, and thougtful evaluation, before making a foolish remark that can permanently damage a company, and the thousands of dollars of investment capital invested to bring these products to market.

The third thing we owe developers is this: thou shalt not steal. If you can't afford it, save. But don't steal. Because what you sow, you also reap.

That's my answer.


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## Evan Gamble (Jan 22, 2007)

Peter Alexander @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> kid-surf @ Mon Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > Peter -- Respectfully... That's not the way I see it.
> ...



All samples have done is over saturate the market. I'd rather be writing scores with a string quartet than be expected to do realistic mockups of full orchestral pieces.

All we owe developers is the money we pay for their product. Just as Kid said with oil companies. Nothing more.

I mean really who here has gotten a GOOD gig, just becuase they owned "such and such " product?


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## JonFairhurst (Jan 22, 2007)

Evan Gamble @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> All we owe developers is the money we pay for their product. Just as Kid said with oil companies. Nothing more.


We also owe them respect. Why? Because everyone deserves respect.

Ethics 101.


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## Aaron Sapp (Jan 22, 2007)




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## Evan Gamble (Jan 22, 2007)

JonFairhurst @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> Evan Gamble @ Mon Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > All we owe developers is the money we pay for their product. Just as Kid said with oil companies. Nothing more.
> ...



Yeah besides that. I feel so warm and fuzzy now!

Thanks Mike for your veiw point-I found your humor perfectly respectable as well. Come on Doug have a laugh!

*looks at Homer*


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## Aaron Sapp (Jan 22, 2007)




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## ComposerDude (Jan 22, 2007)

The hope and hype surrounding Audio Impressions from a composer community anticipating "better strings" suggests that people implicitly understand that we DO indeed owe developers a debt of gratitude for those developers having taken the risk of time and money and developed cutting-edge products. Especially if the products are really good.

Products don't just happen; there's a huge amount of behind the scenes work, and success isn't guaranteed. Even a top-flight company like Opcode vanished, and as Peter Alexander stated in earlier posts, various other music-industry companies were on the verge of bankruptcy. Kudos to all the companies willing to step out onto the highwire tightrope.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 22, 2007)

Evan Gamble @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Mon Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > kid-surf @ Mon Jan 22 said:
> ...



All of us who know how to arrange, and who have experience in front of live ensembles, as I do, would also like to _only_ write for string quartets and other live ensembles. 

But that's not reality, and it's not because samples have over saturated the market. Read the statistics I posted earlier. If there are 2.1 million sequencing installs, then the market isn't over saturated _at all_.

The reality is that how we work is determined by financial executives at publicly traded companies (hence, another reason we have the MusicTech 22 at Sonic Control), and those executives, along with producers with short budgets, along with young people with little experience willing to write for free just to get a credit (thus turning our craft into a commodity market), have determined that our craft must be adapted to sampled players.

But that's only part of it.

Try getting a paid commission from any orchestra in the US, Canada, UK, etc. Orchestra's are running out of money and perform the so-called war horses because those works are in the public domain, and therefore, no performance royalties due for them. The scene isn't totally dead. In 2005, 600+ new works were commissioned and performed in the US.

How about what we used to call "jingle" writing. There are fewer and fewer original works for advertising being turned out. Instead, the money is going to license songs that have made it into the Top 40, or with the NFL and other sports, excerpts from action/adventure scores. 

Scoring for TV? Check with the composers for all the TV shows now being downloaded at iTunes and find out how much, out of $1.99 per download, they're getting. The last statistic I heard was, uh, let's see, oh yes. ZERO. Why zero? Because when they signed the deal there _were_ no digital downloads so it's not covered in the contract. 

Now, before any starts yelling, "ripoff," let's just state the stone cold facts that most people in music, and the arts in general, neither want to say nor face: we're entrepreneurs. We run our own music production and publishing companies. No one wants to say that, because it sounds too much like the "suits." But that's what we do and how we draw our living if we write professionally. We need a business plan and goals to accomplish our dreams. We need courses in business planning, legal, financial, and yes, salesmanship. It's not just about copyrights, it's about intellectual property rights. And each of us has to be savvy about that. 

Grouse and groan all you want. But if you love what you do enough to become a professional and work your way up to go full time in creating music, then you have to deal with this. Otherwise, without goals and planning, Life may take you where you did not plan to go.

And to answer your question, plenty of people here and not on this board have gotten writing projects not because they had one "killer" library, but because they had a _number_ of libraries to draw from to create the sound to get the gig.


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## Evan Gamble (Jan 22, 2007)

Well yeah people need the killer libs now since the standard has been set (Obviously I know this since Ive invested tons of $$ and time into samples)

But I'm just saying that we wouldn't be needing to do this if developers never sampled and the market would be less saturated and we would'nt have global warming, or the war in Iraq, cats and dogs would get along ext ext.

Its all relative. Enough of me talking out of my ass


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## spectrum (Jan 23, 2007)

Evan Gamble @ Mon Jan 22 said:


> But I'm just saying that we wouldn't be needing to do this if developers never sampled and the market would be less saturated and we would'nt have global warming, or the war in Iraq, cats and dogs would get along ext ext.



I didn't realize I'd be causing all that trouble when I started sampling stuff all those years ago....sorry.

Those floppy disks were DANGEROUS!! :shock:


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## Evan Gamble (Jan 23, 2007)

spectrum @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Evan Gamble @ Mon Jan 22 said:
> 
> 
> > But I'm just saying that we wouldn't be needing to do this if developers never sampled and the market would be less saturated and we would'nt have global warming, or the war in Iraq, cats and dogs would get along ext ext.
> ...



Yeah its all your fault Eric!!! :twisted: :lol:


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

Am I officially the first LANS member to post? Anyway... what a cool group of guys, and I'm only lying a little bit. :D


Peter---

I can understand your point of view but see the flawed logic in one simple equation.

Developers + nothing = nothing.

If they were in fact responsible for my career --yours, or whomever else's-- we would have a guarantee in each box we buy/license. That guarantee would read *"We _____ herby guarantee you a career in film composing so long as you use our product".* The end. That would settle it, they are then taking _responsibility_ for our careers. Sure, they can then take OWNERSHIP of each of our careers. If they can provide me this guarantee in writing I will gladly cash that check first thing in the morning.

Licensing us samples is not taking responsibility for our careers. Not hardly.

Instead, the most they can offer us are inanimate sounds that are meaningless without our point of view attached to them. Meaningless to the people WE need to impress. Not meaningless to THEM. Their job ends once the box of samples leaves the warehouse, that's when our jobs start (the job of creating a... CAREER -- you thought I was going to simply say music?) Hey, why not sell these samples direct to the film industry? If the developers don't need me/us, why not bypass what is an unnecessary obstacle. "THE COMPOSER". Furthermore, what are they doing allowing these composers to take their money, credits, and chicks? 

Damn that James Newton Howard! 185 minutes of music in King Kong in 5 weeks? That was all the work of VSL, yes? And here he took the credit. Press a button and out comes 185 minutes of music. "here you go Mr. Director". Well, I can't find that button on my rig. If someone could let me know where it's located... 'cause I have a gig this week. I would like to press the button and then go surf all day. But I also would like to thank VSL for getting me this gig (and probably SISS and EW while I'm at it). Honestly, I had nothing to do with it. It's not as if I wrote the music that got me the meeting.

The fact of the matter is that these sounds do not come to us as a "voice", a "point of view". The reason a composer is sought after is their "point of view" as a writer. But is that all? Heck no it's not all. The nebbishy/skittish yet brilliant composer who can't find a job will tell you so. The composers point of view is but one piece of a very large, fucked up, makes no sense, puzzle. This business is almost 100% relationships. Who you know, likeability, personality, looks, charisma, point of view, original voice, compelling ideas. Maybe in that order. The ability to be a STAR in the eyes of whomever (agents, directors, producers). It's definitely a *package deal*. That well presented package turns into lots of 'meaningful' credits in time. These are a few of the more important factors that determine a composers career -- via marketability. The samples are WAY down low on any realistic list anyone wishes to create.

That's career stuff--

As for the actual music -- We all create it, we all think of the secession of notes. We gives these inanimate sample libraries a "voice" with which they are then able to "speak". We often mix (if we don't have our personal engineer) these libs to enhance the "emotional" qualities _we've_ developed. We arrange and orchestrate these samples into something that now has meaning. Samples that before were simply notes laid out before us all, in the same fashion, chromatically. (and let's not forget the live sessions we've done -- maybe we're supposed to give the players all the credit there!?). -continuing- We each attain our industry leads. We each foster our professional, and more importantly "personal" relationships with these industry people. We each plant seeds, water them, and make sure they continue to be watered (clients: agents / managers / producers / directors / music supervisors... anyone else). We each bust our ass to meet insane deadlines. We each schmoos the clients to make them feel comfortable with us. On, and on, and on the list goes... too many micro things to put into type.

So no, we don't owe developers our careers. Not hardly. My brain is responsible for everything I "personally" have going on. The thought that they are somehow wholly responsible for all of our careers is presumptuous at best (in my "opinion", that is). 

We each 'own' our individual careers. They are ours, not the sample developer. We've all worked for whatever we have going on. No one did that for us. No, I'm sorry they aren't going to get any credit for the hundreds of positional/creative things a composer must do day in day out to "make it" (and further more, to "keep it"). Much as I like them all personally. 

Having said that. There are many developers I think are WAY cool people. Guys I truly respect. Guys, whom I've meet and like on a personal level, and like kick'n it with. These are, by and large, a really great group of people. Most definitely! Cant' say that strongly enough...


To close ---- What past classical composers have done, are doing, or plan to do doesn't apply to me personally. I personally am not a classical composer. I never wanted to be, and don't ever plan to be. I don't take any offense if people accuse me of not being as trained as they. Maybe it'd bother me more if I felt it was holding me back. Which it's not. That's Hollywood for ya. For better or worse...


And that is why, while I am not offended by you, Peter, I am perplexed/offended by the the idea. Every composer should be. Every person who creates should be offended by the idea that the tool makers are somehow owed careers. Creation happens in the mind, not the tool. Writers prove that every day. Words on paper. _"Thank you for the ink, thank you for the paper. Here is your money for each. Now, please excuse me while I create something... how ever trivial this process may seem."_ (I don't see any difference with us)


**On a different note ---- I would suggest anyone who feels I'm full of crap sit down with a composer agent and get the real scoop on the industry. You'll see how little a role your samples actually play in terms of a career. Nothing better than the straight shit. This business is definitely not for the faint of heart. Nor the idealistic.


Much love guys...

Yes, Mike, I'm going to bed now... :razz:


Kid


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## Hermitage59 (Jan 23, 2007)

Mike, 
Thanks for the comments. I appreciate your honesty, and objectivity. It's good to get an frank assessment of what's available and coming up.

Kid, i'd have to agree with you on the relationship between user and developer.
It's still a market, with customers and sellers, and although the 'community' of us niche sound chaps means a closer relationship, willingly fostered by both parties, the fact is we're still consumers and will make up our own minds on what we want and don't want.

There's no rule that says every user experience is a good one, and although, i suspect, most unfavourable user experiences are a result of user generated problems, there's a basic consumer right to give his or her assessment of a product based on one's own experience/perception/judgement.

I can understand developers being keen to present their products in the best possible light, but there are those who do so by interactive, openminded, discussion as part of a business model, placing the consumers opinion and product experience, be it good or otherwise, at the core of their 'customer satisfaction' model. 

Given the generally high standard of libraries these days, a development i'm personally thoroughly pleased and enthusiastic about, the customer experience with the company is often an important factor.

A recent example of how not to do this occurred with steinberg and the cubase 4 release, a company renowned for its increasingly distant, some could say broken, relationship with users. 
Another is Apple Logic, with a mechanism of system layers separating them from customers, and making the customer service experience a difficult one at best.

Peter, 
i don't agree with the point of a 'wedded' relationship between developers and users. 

Respect (IMHO) has to be earned (both ways), and developers that encourage and support their customers, and answer critique of their products with common sense response, and if neccessary, a fix for a problem, promptly, have a better chance (IMHO) of success. We've seen developers who allow mention of other companies products on their sites, and show a maturity in the way they handle this. (VSL has been prominent in this mature stance, and as i've discovered recently, Bob and the team at SAW are quite relaxed about comparisons.) It tells me these companies are confident in their product, and can take criticism in a mature and sensible fashion, dealing with the comment as it stands, insteading of stifling debate in the quest for 'nirvana publicity.' 
Most of us are smart enough to discern if a product actually does what it's claimed to do, or will fit our particular needs, and those companies who intereact openly and fairly with their customers have good and lasting reputations. (Delivering on time and without problems counts big time with me, and lengthy delays only give me the impression of publicity 'smoke and mirrors', unless the developer continually updates the present customers, and potential future customers with honest and realistic progress reports.)

I think the publicity of chasing a unique sound to gain an advantage over others, however temporarily, is a bit of a myth. Solid user skills, and strong musical experience (particularly orchestrative) still generally count. The various discussions we've had here about the worth of one composer over another, and the consequent differing views prove this. So the critique of a product from a respected colleague is likely to carry a great deal of weight, but is still taken in account amongst other personal considerations, perceptions, and requirements.

I'll be honest, there are a few chaps here and elsewhere whose pragmatic and objective assessment of the capabilites, or otherwise, of a product, have a far greater impact on my future considerations than any company brochure or shiny website or 'corporate accolades of sampling paradise', simply because those whose assessment i respect know what they're talking about.


Just some thoughts.

Alex.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 23, 2007)

Developers provide tools, not the talent to support them. No tools, no gig. Ask anyone in construction.


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## Moonchilde (Jan 23, 2007)

No customers, no business. Works both ways. 

Although, for a developer, there is much more work on their part, as they have to convince the customer their product is worth buying. A customer won't ever and shouldn't ever feel like they owe a developer of any tool, be it a shovel or a sample library, a purchase. That has to be earned.


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## Ashermusic (Jan 23, 2007)

Peoplehave two basic attitudes:
1. I do not respect you until you give me a reason to.
2. I respect you until you give me a reason not to.

In regards to developers and people in general I choose number 2.

But it is not necessarily disrespectful to a developer to criticize his product. If you write, "I didn't like the sound" I do not see that as disrespectful. If you write "he just through that out there with sloppy sample editing and little care and efffort" that is dissrespectful.

I think we owe developers an open mind and the assumption that they care about the quality of their product. We owe them a respectful tone in our criticsms. We dont owe to them to either like their products or say nothing about them.


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 23, 2007)

Let's let thanks come not from the feeling that something is owed due to some pipe dream principle of respect. Let it happen naturally instead because we're genuinely thankful - especially if the hard work of a developer gels with what composers use and find useful. It can't be forced or expected. It's earned.


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## midphase (Jan 23, 2007)

> My clients don't seem to have a problem telling me when my music sucks.



Colin,

I can't picture anyone ever telling you that you music sucks.


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## midphase (Jan 23, 2007)

I think Mike's report was the very fair man-in-the-street type of un-hyped info that I wish we would get more often.

For anyone to get offended or feel disrespected by his remarks is silly and makes me feel less inclined to support their company.

I think that developers need to be able to deal with criticism as graciously as they do with praise.


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

Looks like overwhelmingly two things are said here:

1) We composers appreciate Mike's (and other's) honest opinions. And that we'll then make up our own minds.

2) We composers are all nothing but the sample developer's _bitches..._ (it's the classic Pimp-Ho relationship) 


Peter, I really don't believe any composer is going to see it your way. I just don't.


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## synergy543 (Jan 23, 2007)

Frederick Russ @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Let's let thanks come not from the feeling that something is owed due to some pipe dream principle of respect. Let it happen naturally instead because we're genuinely thankful - especially if the hard work of a developer gels with what composers use and find useful. It can't be forced or expected. It's earned.



Well said Frederick! 
Gratitude is only valuable when its sincere.


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## artsoundz (Jan 23, 2007)

annnndddddd...SCENE!


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## neoTypic (Jan 23, 2007)

artsoundz @ January 23rd said:


> annnndddddd...SCENE!



*snicker*

A++


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## synergy543 (Jan 23, 2007)

What a performance! Whew.

DAY 4 is the next take right?


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## Hannes_F (Jan 23, 2007)

kid-surf @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> 2) We composers are all nothing but the sample developer's _bitches..._ (it's the classic Pimp-Ho relationship)



kid-surf,

you tend to be rude now. Is this necessary to make your point understandable? I cannot read that anywhere in Peter's posts. Maybe because english is not my native langue but I think not.

Hannes


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

Hannes_F @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> kid-surf @ Tue Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > 2) We composers are all nothing but the sample developer's _bitches..._ (it's the classic Pimp-Ho relationship)
> ...



Lost in translation perhaps. It was a joke... 

Peter never mentioned _Bitches and Ho's_... Definitely not. :D

Not everyone is going to agree with my sense of humor.


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 23, 2007)

kid-surf @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Not everyone is going to agree with my sense of humor.



Finally you said something I could agree with. :wink: 

J


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

Dr.Quest @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> kid-surf @ Tue Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Not everyone is going to agree with my sense of humor.
> ...



I see, so you're one of those guys that ows your career to the sample developers. Congrats!


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 23, 2007)

Again, trying to make it seem as though I've said something that I haven't. Just like you did with Peter's post. All I said was I don't agree with your sense of so called humor.
I do owe thanks to the developers for making great tools that are fun to use. I never said anything about a career because of them.
You sir are a real puzzle.
J


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## JonFairhurst (Jan 23, 2007)

Riddle for the day:

Q: What can start a fire, yet makes things wet and smelly?

A: A pissing match!


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

You words were "Finally you said something I could agree with."

'Finally'... implies that you read what I'd said previously and didn't agree with any of it to that point --- Namely that composers don't owe their career to developers. 

Otherwise you'd have simply said "I agree with that".

You, Sir., are the true puzzle...


Cheers,


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

JonFairhurst @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Riddle for the day:
> 
> Q: What can start a fire, yet makes things wet and smelly?
> 
> A: A pissing match!





Yeah, maybe, Jon. But I personally am not gonna sit there and be told we owe people our careers without defending composers and their hard work. Good grief. And being told this by someone who "sells" samples?

Yep, it's a little pissing match. No big deal. Life goes on...


----------



## artsoundz (Jan 23, 2007)

CUT!! People!People!!! This isn't how we did in rehearsal 

Sharmy- we talked about hit on the drums after the Fairhurst joke- Where was that? I'm paying for ....for...what????

And for Gods sakes people- Ive said it before....Spell check ,spell check ,spell check.

Ok.. quiet please...CUE STRINGS....aaannnnnnd ACTIO.......CUT!!!! STRINGS!! WHERE ARE THE F____ STRINGS!!!??

That's it. I'll be in my trailer........


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## Dr.Quest (Jan 23, 2007)

Man, you are one angry dude. When I said *finally* I mean't that I haven't read much in any of your posts, past or present to agree with.
You always, always come out guns blazing.
If you read Peter's post then your rebuttale it's like you are listening to a guy trying to overdub a guitar solo without hearing the basic tracks.

Seriously, WTF.
Cheers,
J


----------



## midphase (Jan 23, 2007)

I back Kid up, no matter what he says!

He rocks and that's that!


----------



## Ed (Jan 23, 2007)

Dr.Quest @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Seriously, WTF.
> Cheers,
> J



He is a model....

...Just kidding!!! I love you all!!! Except Choco.


----------



## Evan Gamble (Jan 23, 2007)

JonFairhurst @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Riddle for the day:
> 
> Q: What can start a fire, yet makes things wet and smelly?
> 
> A: A pissing match!









:lol:


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 23, 2007)

"I think Mike's report was the very fair man-in-the-street type of un-hyped info that I wish we would get more often."

Mike is an entertaining guy who gives great lap dances, but I sure hope everyone takes his man-in-the-street unhyped info for what it is: the world according to Mr. Mike. It's not "info," it's Mike's opinions.

That's absolutely valid, and it's also valid that Doug comes over and slaps him around a little too. This is what forums are supposed to be: someone says something, someone else comes out with the flame thrower. 

Maybe I'm a little defensive about this because of the mention about magazines earlier. We criticize stuff all the time, but we're accountable for everything we say - and that's the difference. In my career I can only think of one advertiser who pulled out of a magazine I edited (JBL at Recording magazine) after I told the truth; on the contrary, I've had marketing people thank me for saying what they've been trying to tell their engineers. But they would pull out - rightly so - if we wrote "man-in-the-street" stuff like Mike's comments about EW releasing lots of products for $600 each or whatever it was.

The difference is that on a forum - an open one like this, with a lot of pretty bright people on it - someone can jump right in and it all balances out (hopefully).

Am I protesting too much?

Don't answer that...


----------



## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

Dr.Quest @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Man, you are one angry dude. When I said *finally* I mean't that I haven't read much in any of your posts, past or present to agree with.
> You always, always come out guns blazing.
> If you read Peter's post then your rebuttale it's like you are listening to a guy trying to overdub a guitar solo without hearing the basic tracks.
> 
> ...



Haha... angry. That's funny. No, I just don't agree with ideas based on an entitlement syndrome. So, yes, I'll make fun of those ideas. Noted, you do not agree with my position. (and then?) You can now have the last word if you'd like... American Idol is on, so I gotta run. Can NOT miss it!!!!


----------



## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

midphase @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> I back Kid up, no matter what he says!
> 
> He rocks and that's that!



Thanks Kays, right back at cha!


----------



## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

Ed @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Dr.Quest @ Tue Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously, WTF.
> ...



Ed, will you merry me??? :twisted:


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 23, 2007)

I too am grateful for the tools that I use to make a living.
It doesn't mean that the libraries made my carreer but they help me put out the best work possible.
Developpers and musicians are people, some have wonderful personalities, some are extremely unpleasant.
But I disagree with the idea that we shouldn't express gratitude towards developpers because they have our dollars. 

(I enjoyed Mike's post too...)


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> "I think Mike's report was the very fair man-in-the-street type of un-hyped info that I wish we would get more often."
> 
> Mike is an entertaining guy who gives great lap dances, but I sure hope everyone takes his man-in-the-street unhyped info for what it is: the world according to Mr. Mike. It's not "info," it's Mike's opinions.
> 
> ...




On a serious note -- I wouldn't expect brutal honest "opinion" from your Mag Nick. I would expect it to be very diplomatic. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's as it should be IMO. (and yes, I'll be renewing again and again.) 

Same as I don't see anything wrong with "man-in-the-street" forum talk amongst composers.

We all know that none of us have the same opinions EVER....  So it's crystal clear that we are reading "one guys" opinion about a product when it's posted here. (now someone will yell at me for speaking on their behalf :D)

INFO -- is still not enough to sell me. It's often biased in it's own rite. The "only" thing that sells me is my own ears (and the price tag  ). Which I'm sure is true for every last one of us.


ok... now for some American Idol.


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## kid-surf (Jan 23, 2007)

Patrick de Caumette @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> I too am grateful for the tools that I use to make a living.
> It doesn't mean that the libraries made my carreer but they help me put out the best work possible.
> Developpers and musicians are people, some are wonderful personalities, some are extremely unpleasant.
> If a developer is out of line, I see nothing wrong with letting him know.
> ...




Who are you disagreeing with? No one suggested that... 

Thanking them for our careers ain't the same as gratitude for the libs. Interesting it's been confused as that.

And as Even pointed out, it's a two way street. 

Semantics.. 

out...


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 23, 2007)

You're right, it's all about semantics.
If you replace owe by being grateful, most of the controversy is gone and we can all go back to loving each other.

I kinda like that idea better :smile: 

Anger is not a good thing, really.


----------



## joaz (Jan 23, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Am I protesting too much?
> 
> Don't answer that...



Ok....Ok... its all my fault. :mrgreen: 

I just like reading Mike's take on things.
No offense Mike, but it doesnt really influence my purchasing decisions.

Lets face it, if any of these new products, that Mike was less than enthusiastic about, start releasing demo's that sound fantastic..........well.......... you all get the general idea.

Mike introduced a welcome note of levity into the very sober and earnest discussions we all have about samples.

While I fully appreciate that this is some peoples bread and butter, monotony of tone, gets just as boring in discussion as it does in Music.

regards Joe


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## artsoundz (Jan 23, 2007)

Oh, anger is a great thing. It can stop unjust wars and keep politicians on their toes, though I haven't seen that happen much since the 60's. 

Doesn't seem to work well for much else- particularly towards Simon Cowell.


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## Peter Alexander (Jan 23, 2007)

kid-surf @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> Peter, I really don't believe any composer is going to see it your way. I just don't.



Composers who:

1) understand that they're entrepreneurs
2) who run their own music production company (which also publishes their music and is affiliated with a performance rights organization)
3) who grasp that a copyrighted piece of music is a financial asset that creates income from rights licensing
4) and who accept that Life doesn't owe them anything

_do._


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 23, 2007)

artsoundz @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Oh, anger is a great thing. It can stop unjust wars and keep politicians on their toes, though I haven't seen that happen much since the 60's.
> Doesn't seem to work well for much else- particularly towards Simon Cowell.




Talking about unjust opression, Gandhy and Martin Luther King did pretty well without it (anger)....


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## artsoundz (Jan 23, 2007)

Great point. However, the anger was there but channeled. 

I think you know what I meant but still- I appreciate the referance to two great souls and their legacy.

So- how 'bout that Fender Rhodes is back. And Rogers drums- Rogers was everything when I was playing drums in the 60's. If you had Pearl-well that wasn't cool. And Yamaha- very cool to have. I wanted the 125cc Enduro. 

Wasn't there ANYTHING else that was "note" worthy at Namm?


----------



## Christian Marcussen (Jan 23, 2007)

Patrick de Caumette @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> artsoundz @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, anger is a great thing. It can stop unjust wars and keep politicians on their toes, though I haven't seen that happen much since the 60's.
> ...



hehe - I think they were pretty pissed alright :D They just utilized it in a more contructive way  

I liked your reports Mike - Basically yours is the only report I have seen on AI- Where are they?


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## artsoundz (Jan 23, 2007)

Christian Marcussen @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Patrick de Caumette @ Tue Jan 23 said:
> 
> 
> > artsoundz @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> ...



yeah, and they didn't have internet forums either. Freedom, Baby!


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## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2007)

*"4) and who accept that Life doesn't owe them anything"*

Exactly my point, Peter... life doesn't owe me/us anything, likewise we don't owe anyone anything either. 


*"If you replace owe by being grateful, most of the controversy is gone and we can all go back to loving each other." *

Grateful, I'll agree to grateful so long as it's 50/50 us/them. Neither side owe the other but are grateful the other exists. 

So, we got a deal? 


That idea more so represents the reality of it all.

Hey, where's Mike, I need a lap dance... :neutral:


----------



## Waywyn (Jan 24, 2007)

A late thanks, Mike.
Quite informative what's going on, especially the Redmatica thingy.
Have to check it out.


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## Hermitage59 (Jan 24, 2007)

C'mon guys. Kid's got a right to voice his opinion, and he HAS got a sense of humour, and i can prove it.

Because for ANYONE to say they like 'The devil wears Prada', means some sort of acknowledgement of some acting ability from Meryl Streep.

That's so far removed from reality, as to be very funny indeed!

Unless of course it's about the clothes..........


----------



## Hermitage59 (Jan 24, 2007)

TJ, good post.

My little self built library is quite obviously nowhere the breadth or complexity of yours, but it does have the important component you mentioned, that of a 'harmony' with my own aural perceptions and intentions. 

So i understand completely Kid's point when he talks of no one owing anyone anything, or being 'obligated' in anyway to sample production or software companies. You also made the point about compromise. Does a modern 'commercial' sample library have everything right for me? No, because there's always something or other that doesn't fit my aural intention, or perception. It is, after all, commercial, and has to appeal across a wide band of requirements from users who differ in their perception of what is 'perfect' for them. (and as one who has played in and conducted orchestras, for example, i'm constantly aware of the infinite variations one can extract from live musicians versus the 'fixed' tonal and articulative parameters of a collection of recorded samples. That in itself provides an interesting challenge when building a piece using samples, and both the plusses and minuses of working this way.)
The compromise can have two effects as well. The first being determination by the user to shape or sculpt that commercial library closer to their personal ideal, with varying degrees of success. The second, as you so wisely wrote, is a realisation, and to a certain extent, acceptance of an end result that isn't the desired result, but somewhere near close enough. (with the inherent feeling of dissatisfaction that seems to go with that, at least with those chasing a high personal standard)

I'm not sure about the price of gratitude though, although i can see where you're going with this. Perhaps i'm cynical, but as no current commercial library does everything for everyone, are users being charged for gratitude, or paying for compromise? Should one be grateful for getting 80 or 60% of what they want? This does, of course, depend on the individual's expectations, not only of the samples, and means of using them, but their own 'vision' of what it is that they want.
The current trend of individual instrument components at least gives a user the chance to raise that percentage, by building a library of parts.

I guess an old saying rings true here. 'A tailormade suit is a much nicer fit.'

Interesting discussion.

Regards,

Alex.


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 24, 2007)

Hermitage59 @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> C'mon guys. Kid's got a right to voice his opinion, and he HAS got a sense of humour, and i can prove it.
> 
> Because for ANYONE to say they like 'The devil wears Prada', means some sort of acknowledgement of some acting ability from Meryl Streep.
> 
> ...



Anyone who has heard Kid's music and knows that he still apsires to be a composer knows he has a sense of humor

Sorry Kid, I am just jealous because you are so much prettier than I am

While I will make up my own mind when I hear or test something in the end, I too enjoy anecdotal reports like Mike and because I respect him it probably does pre-dispose me to like or not like a product.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 24, 2007)

Thomas_J @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> I believe it depends greatly on what a person feels he's getting out of the samples. A bitch/pimp relationship analogy is perhaps not too far off for some people (and it certainly seems like Kid is struggling with his samples more often than he is enjoying the feeling of enhanced artistry that a good marriage of proper tools and the mind can bring). Niché-sample libraries are created out of necessity to accommodate one guy's personal artistic needs and desires. To help cover their expenses they'll sell the libraries. Back in the days when I was starting out with samples I felt gratitude every time I made music with them, but I also quickly started to feel dependence and increasingly frequent frustration. As I grew more critical, I came to realize I was essentially shoehorned into several people's artistic ideologies, none of which were compatible with my own. Was gratitude really the right feeling? Was it genuinely directed at the sample library developers, or was I simply feeling gratitude for the possibilities technology brought to the table? In retrospect I know it was the latter, but people are very different, and not everyone in the music making industry think of themselves as artists (in which case Peter Alexander's suggested entrepreneur title could be applicable), which leads me to my next point.
> 
> If you happen to be fortunate enough to feel that your mind and the tools (in this case, samples) you use in your work are in perfect harmony with each other, and that the synergetic effect favorably shapes your artistic expression, then I'd say you definitely owe the developers your respect and gratitude. However if you simply regard their tools as means to a compromised end (you see where I'm going with this  ), then I cannot find any point of reason for such gratitude. Respect? Sure, but not gratitude. Personally I find myself being grateful for developers quite often, although it is on a case by case/sample by sample basis, where someone else's work happens to fit perfectly into my frame of artistic peculiarities. There are certain tools that I cannot imagine living without (Cubase/Gigastudio!), then there are welcomed tools that help make my life easier (assorted sample libraries), and finally there's the nail that always bends on its way in / GPO. Anyone who produces art, regardless of form, gains my respect. My gratitude is reserved for the people whose work becomes an indispensable _AND_ joyous part of mine. For many people this is the work of the developers out there. And these people do indeed make this known. Afterall they buy their products. I guess what pisses Kid off is that developers will set a price that supposedly reflects the "amount of gratitude" you should feel for a certain product, and when Peter believes one should afford these guys yet another sign of gratification after the purchase, Kid is enraged. And rightfully so in my opinion, unless it is a true, uncompromised aid in his artistic pursuits.. but lets face it, not many sample libraries are.



TJ, your english is pretty good for a Norwegian


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## JohnnyMarks (Jan 24, 2007)

Hey Mike, 

NAMM Day One/Two/Three: 8000 views on this forum. You're a star! 

Thanks again for being our eyes and ears and...(well, there were at least a few booth babes weren't there?).

Cheers.


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## Mike Greene (Jan 24, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Jan 23 said:


> . . . but I sure hope everyone takes his man-in-the-street unhyped info for what it is: the world according to Mr. Mike. It's not "info," it's Mike's opinions.
> 
> That's absolutely valid, and it's also valid that Doug comes over and slaps him around a little too. This is what forums are supposed to be: someone says something, someone else comes out with the flame thrower.
> 
> . . . on a forum - an open one like this, with a lot of pretty bright people on it - someone can jump right in and it all balances out (hopefully).


Exactly! That's why this forum works. A lot of guys did indeed jump in with their own opinions, some differing from mine. Those guys are obviously morons, but sometimes even a moron can get it right. I can think of instances in these NAMM threads where Craig and Kays posted differing opinions from mine, and I wound up agreeing with them more than what I originally wrote.

Truth is, if I didn't think anyone with differing opinions would post them, I wouldn't have written any of my negative impressions. It's too much responsibilty. Especially since all I really wanted to do was start the ball rolling and tell a couple jokes along the way. And not even in that order!

I do take exception to the "Doug comes over and slaps him around a little" comment, though. Seemed more like whining than slapping to me. And I just can't get it out of my head that a "standing ovation after several of our demonstrations" is a little less impressive in light of the fact that there was no seating in the EW area. But I'm not one to make waves, so I won't bring any of that up.

On a serious note, writing these "reports" was fun, but it's even better knowing that a bunch of people appreciate them. So thank you for the thanks and nice responses.  

On an even more serious note, I am no longer open for business when it comes to lap dances!!! Yes Kid, that means you too!!!

- Mike Greene


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## midphase (Jan 24, 2007)

I am curious if you all feel the same amount of gratitude towards your toilet as you do towards VSL? What about your refrigerator? What about deodorant?

I guess my point is that, from a spiritual POW, we should all be grateful to all of the things in our lives and sample libraries should not be held on a higher level than all of the other things which are necessities of modern living.

If there has been one thing that has always bothered me around here (and NS) is some people's flat out idolatry for some of these products and developers. In some extreme cases, things can get quite explosive and personal when two people don't agree on a piece of software (i.e. the infamous Kays vs. Bruce GS3 feud). I wish people would keep things in perspective a bit more. These are companies who make commercial products with the intent of making a living from it. They have to constantly outdo each other to stay on top of the market (and those who don't fade out as we have seen happen many times). The form of gratitude that they're mostly interested in comes in rectangular green pieces of paper.

Now don't get me wrong, just because I've purchased something, it doesn't mean that if I want to, I shouldn't share a kind word or a thanks to a developer. Actually, one of the things I like about going to NAMM is that I have the opportunity to meet some of the people who create this stuff and personally thank them...but this should be viewed as an academic choice and not a mandatory way of operating.

It's a bit like writing a letter to Spielberg because you really love Raiders of the Lost Ark. I bet many of you really like that film, but how many feel "grateful" for it?


----------



## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2007)

Ashermusic @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Hermitage59 @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > C'mon guys. Kid's got a right to voice his opinion, and he HAS got a sense of humour, and i can prove it.
> ...




Three things...

Yes, the fact that I "loved" The Devil Wears Prada proves that not only do I have a sense of humor... I'm also quite gay. 

Exactly! ... and if you've heard my music... come on, that's not funny? :mrgreen:

Third... Unfortunately I only buy what Mike tells me to buy. He points, I buy.


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## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike -- good point. I respect the opinions of many people here. I want to know what they think of this stuff. Even though they are morons and definitely not a smart as you... (some people won't realize that's a joke)

No more lap dances... :-( Well, there's always next year, I hope.


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## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2007)

TJ - Herm

Yeah, I would say that is some of it. But I wouldn't call it enraged, I say it's more in the "roll my eyes" realm. I would say that with strings I am annoyed a lot. (Big thanks to VSL, and SISS -- I hardly ever use QLSO strings). It seems that you, TJ, found it annoying so you decided to do your own lib-with a few others involved. I may be in the position to do my own string lib this following year. When I hear about AI, this lib that will supposedly make it so much easier for me, coming in at 25k said and done. And then hear that people are not being blown away by it. It makes me think "hey, why don't I just record my own strings". Because it may be that none of these developers will ever do what I'd like. The idea has been rolling around in my brain since I've heard your work and you talking about the PP lib giving you the ability to hear 'in samples' what you want to write. It seems like it may be a good investment to do my own lib and call it "just for me"--where I'm the only investor. That way I don't have to make sure it has anything other than what works for my writing style. But then again, if friends of mine heard it and wanted to buy it, I would sell it on a fairly limited basis. But by making it a completely personal lib at first I wouldn't have any outside pressures or obligations. I wouldn't "owe" anyone. 

So from that perspective, yes, I feel it's annoying to think that sample developers may feel I am indebted to them somehow. Or that I should naturally praise their lib just because it's hit the market. 

I have an idea for another lib too: I don't really care if someone steals my idea so here it is. It again would be a personal lib. Maybe I'd call it "Horror™". It would be all sorts of very "sick/twisted" sounds (no, not like Air or Distorted Reality -- I'm talking organic sounds). The lib would be aimed at a very dark sensibility. I honestly thought that someone would releòªû   O– ªû   O–ªû   O–ªû   O–ªû   O–ªû   O–ªû   O–ªû   O–ªû   O–ªû   O–	ªû   O–
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----------



## Marsdy (Jan 24, 2007)

Thanks for asking about the MOTU hardware Mike 

(It was me who asked!)


----------



## sbkp (Jan 24, 2007)

synergy543 @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> I'm not happy myself that I'm forced to shell out hundreds of dollars to continue using my EW products just so Doug can switch to a new sample platform for his convenience



I agree with a lot of what you said, but this part stuck out -- not only because I work for EW, btw....

How are you being forced to pay to continue using your EW products? It's not like the NI versions are going to suddenly stop working when PLAY ships.

And on a purely semantic note, I think "Doug's convenience" is a pretty narrow view of what EW is doing. Not sure what you meant there, though.

Best,
Stefan


----------



## John DeBorde (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> On an even more serious note, I am no longer open for business when it comes to lap dances!!!



what?!?! what about that punch card you sold me?!? i still have 3 punches left! this is an outrage!!!

shenanigans!!!!!


8-P


----------



## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2007)

synergy543 --

Yes, Peter and I will have to agree to disagree. I would assume we are at an impasse of ideologies. That's ok with me, I still respect the guy and am not mad or holding some sort of grudge. I mean, we're taking about samples after all. And I think that is part of what Kay's point was. That this all is not the most important thing in the world. That if we owe careers to developers what do we "owe" the rest of the world?

To combine what Patrick and TJ said -- Had Peter said "we could be grateful for the libs that make our lives easier and allow us to more fully express ourselves". I would have had no problem with that idea. But when it's said that "we composers owe our career to _____". Yeah, I took issue with that idea. I don't feel I shoved my position down anyones throat any more that Peter did. It was two people discussing.

But the semantics of it all could go on into infinity... 

Just know that I never was even close to being angry. I was expressing my opinion. Nothing more.

Peace on earth. :D

Really, there's a lot worse shit happening in the word...

Oh, one last thing -- I remember very few times I've heard a developer thanking us composers for supporting their products. I would say they receive more gratitude than they give back. Not that I need them to thank me, just say'n.


----------



## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2007)

BTW -- I also don't see anything wrong with considering the composer / developer relationship... as we are here. 

We may all walk away from this conversation with the same point of views way came with, or not. Who knows?


----------



## synergy543 (Jan 24, 2007)

sbkp @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> How are you being forced to pay to continue using your EW products? It's not like the NI versions are going to suddenly stop working when PLAY ships.
> 
> And on a purely semantic note, I think "Doug's convenience" is a pretty narrow view of what EW is doing. Not sure what you meant there, though.
> 
> ...


Hi Stefan,

My understanding is the NI versions of EW products will stop working the day I need to upgrade my computer to a MacIntel as there is not an EastWest /NI upgrade option that I'm aware of. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

I'm a Kontakt user and I own a large number of EastWest products. I also am in the position of needing a new computer soon and my only reasonable choice is to buy a new MacIntel. If EW doesn't provide an upgrade option for existing products that will allow me to continue using Kontakt, then you can see I have no choice other than to switch to PLAY or lose the ability to access any of my EastWest products because they are in a monolithic sample format that I can't otherwise access. The fact that I, and others need to buy new computers is a given. As I said, we can't reasonably live in an anachronism in time with old computers so I don't buy that argument. I invested in EWQLSO and other libraries with the intent to be able to use them for many years.

So its not a convenience for me to switch sample formats. However, I do acknowlegdge the coolness of the new PLAY GI and I'd love to hear the new sounds and hear more about its operation. I just hope PLAY provides me with the same functionality (such as SIPS scripts for legato rather than QLegato) or the ability to view keyswitches (within Kontakt the Group button allows me to view these) or to make my own Instrument banks which I can switch on the fly from my keyboard.

As NI already offers a solution (Kontakt 2.2 for MacIntel), I don't see why EastWest couldn't make this available as an option for exising East West products and still access Kontakt. However, I acknowledge that this is Doug's choice and not mine (he is the owner and I am a licensee) and I understand their are support issues and other concerns I might not be aware of. I'm just not a real happy camper at this point as its a rather abrupt switch and not something I am able to time myself so I wish I had a choice myself of when to switch.

Really, all I want to do is keep using EWLSO because I love it and its a very important part of my library.

Hope that explains,

Greg


----------



## synergy543 (Jan 24, 2007)

kid - Thanks for the explanation and acknowledgement. I agree there are bigger things for us to be worrying about and disagreeing is not a bad thing. How boring life would be if we were all the same - for there would be no interesting music!

Hope the surf it good,

Greg


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## sbkp (Jan 24, 2007)

synergy543 @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> My understanding is the NI versions of EW products will stop working the day I need to upgrade my computer to a MacIntel as there is not an EastWest /NI upgrade option that I'm aware of. If I'm wrong, please correct me.



You're wrong. 

If you upgrade to a MacIntel box, get Kontakt 2.2 and de-authorize your old machine and authorize your new machine.

Now, if you've done the $49 upgrade to the PLAY version of one of your products, _that_ NI license will be deactivated. But nothing is going to stop you from using a license you already purchased.

Does that help?

Best,
Stefan


----------



## synergy543 (Jan 24, 2007)

sbkp @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> synergy543 @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > My understanding is the NI versions of EW products will stop working the day I need to upgrade my computer to a MacIntel as there is not an EastWest /NI upgrade option that I'm aware of. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
> ...



Hi Stephan,

That sounds great! So the the current East West Kompact installers I have will work on the new MacIntel? My understanding is you have to run Kompakt once to authorize and then you can open in Kontakt.

Will this option continue to be available?

This option sure didn't seem available from the way the PLAY was being described. 

Thanks,

Greg


----------



## sbkp (Jan 24, 2007)

synergy543 @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Hi Stephan,
> 
> That sounds great! So the the current East West Kompact installers I have will work on the new MacIntel? My understanding is you have to run Kompakt once to authorize and then you can open in Kontakt.
> 
> ...



That's a good question, actually. I don't know enough (PC guy here) to say what the deal is with the actual authorization process. I'll get someone to look at that and answer here.

- Stefan


----------



## sbkp (Jan 24, 2007)

Word from EW tech support:



> Yes, you can run the installer and run the program on an intel mac. It just doesn't perform well.



So there you go!


----------



## synergy543 (Jan 24, 2007)

Great news. Well, my feedback suggestion would be that you mention this along with PLAY so users realize there is more than one option. This might help alleviate the concern for some about switching to the new player as it provides them some flexibility in terms of timing.

Thanks,

Greg


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 24, 2007)

Kays,

I AM grateful for my toilet (when it works) and my deodorant.
I'm sure you've experience an overflow after a big #2: not fun! :evil: :evil: 
And you should smell my armpits when I run out of deodorant (think very ripe Italian cheese)
I'm glad that you reminded me to be grateful for those. We're so good at taking everything for granted.

...and I'm also grateful for the handful of movies that really moved me or took me on a journey over the years (and most of Spielberg movies didn't do it for me...)
A shame that they are so few and far in between  

Now, does my gratitude make you angry? :wink: :mrgreen:


----------



## Pando (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> I do take exception to the "Doug comes over and slaps him around a little" comment, though. Seemed more like whining than slapping to me. And I just can't get it out of my head that a "standing ovation after several of our demonstrations" is a little less impressive in light of the fact that there was no seating in the EW area. But I'm not one to make waves, so I won't bring any of that up.
> 
> - Mike Greene


  :mrgreen: rofl
Dammit, now my drink is all over my keyboard...


----------



## Doug Rogers (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> I do take exception to the "Doug comes over and slaps him around a little" comment, though. Seemed more like whining than slapping to me.



Hey Mike, correcting your list of inaccuracies is hardly "whining".

Actually, I like your sense of humor, I just wish you'd get your facts straight.

I see you just posted on the EW forum you were happy with the new prices ... is it time for a group hug. :mrgreen:

With regards to Gregory's question above about the transition from EW/NI-powered products to PLAY. There is no time limit with your current NI registration. However, you will have a choice to make when the PLAY upgrade is released. You will then decide, do I upgrade for $49 and have my NI registration deactivated (which means, if you move to a new computer, you won't be able to use the NI version anymore); or do I pay $99 for the PLAY upgrade and keep my NI registration active forever (which means, you'll have two formats to choose from).

Peace!

- Doug


----------



## Mike Greene (Jan 24, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Hey Mike, correcting your list of inaccuracies is hardly "whining".


No, that wouldn't be whining . . . except I don't recall you correcting anything I've said. In fact, I just reread my first NAMM Day 1 post and I challenge anyone to find a factual error in it. (Other than price, which was accurate until an hour ago.)

In fact, in that post, I said these things: "As is typical for EWQL, the sound is fantastic." And, " the sounds are great. Storm Drum 2 is a no-brainer for me."

There are a few non-complimentary things I said, but the biggest had to do with price, which is now remedied, for me at least. The rest are all things that really happened or else they're strictly my opinions and were given as such. I was very careful about this, both while at the EW booth and while I was writing my thoughts.

I'm not trying to be arguementative. But I can't let slide a statement that I posted a "list of inaccuaries." A list of garbage, or a list of idiotic ramblings, well, that would be OK. So I'm cool if you're cool. Now, where are my sunglasses . . . ah, here they are!  

<Edit> I now see you've added the group hug suggestion. Count me in! :mrgreen: 

- Mike Greene


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2007)

> I am curious if you all feel the same amount of gratitude towards your toilet as you do towards VSL?



I use VSL for better things.

:twisted: 



> What about your refrigerator?



Yes, I worship The Box.



> What about deodorant?



Other people feel gratitude for that.


----------



## Doug Rogers (Jan 24, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Doug Rogers @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Mike, correcting your list of inaccuracies is hardly "whining".
> ...



Check my post on page 1 of NAMM Day 3.

Now, about that group hug!!  

Peace,

- Doug


----------



## tobyond (Jan 24, 2007)

Group Buy??


----------



## sbkp (Jan 24, 2007)

Group se...????

never mind....


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## Mike Greene (Jan 24, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Doug Rogers @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> ...


<sigh> Everything you wrote after the first two paragraphs was editted in at least a day later, so yeah, I guess I missed that! Heck, some of my quotes you listed in that post (on page one) come from page TWO of this thread!

I'm not going to argue it anymore. If you think I gave bad information, fine. I hereby apologize. And you can tell everyone you slapped me good.

But what troubles me, and the reason I'm responding is this:



Doug Rogers @ Sun Jan 21 said:


> Anyway, I'll shut up now, this place has become poisonous to developers, I notice some of them have disappeared already.


Dude, you've got to get a thicker skin. Half of your "corrections" were on statements I made that were JOKES! And if I'm skeptical of a release date, don't take it personally! Time will tell and who knows, you may very well get the last laugh!

But don't lower yourself to calling this forum poisonous. Take a chill pill, reread my posts, notice the number of times I say, "sounds fantastic" when talking about your stuff. We're on your side. Really.  

- Mike Greene


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## midphase (Jan 24, 2007)

I agree, I wish developers would chill out a bit about criticisms of their products. If they can't stand the heat, they should really consider doing something else.

As a composer, I deal with criticism on my work on a daily basis. If I started throwing it back at my clients, or telling them that they have become poisonous, I'd be done for good.


----------



## kid-surf (Jan 24, 2007)

midphase @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> I agree, I wish developers would chill out a bit about criticisms of their products. If they can't stand the heat, they should really consider doing something else.
> 
> As a composer, I deal with criticism on my work on a daily basis. If I started throwing it back at my clients, or telling them that they have become poisonous, I'd be done for good.



Ditto that...


----------



## Doug Rogers (Jan 24, 2007)

midphase @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> I agree, I wish developers would chill out a bit about criticisms of their products. If they can't stand the heat, they should really consider doing something else.
> 
> As a composer, I deal with criticism on my work on a daily basis. If I started throwing it back at my clients, or telling them that they have become poisonous, I'd be done for good.



What irritates me is inaccurate information (not opinion, everyone has one) and I'll correct that when I see it.

NAMM's over - let's move on.

- Doug


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## Aaron Sapp (Jan 24, 2007)

Poisonous? Hmmm... :neutral:


----------



## Evan Gamble (Jan 24, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Doug Rogers @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> ...



I'm all for a group hug-though be careful...I'm still pissing on everyones opinions! :wink:


----------



## Rob Elliott (Jan 25, 2007)

Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> Doug Rogers @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Greene @ Wed Jan 24 said:
> ...




Mike - ONE MORE THANKS from this customer of sample libraries. Please don't let this experience discourage you from making similar reports. Yours was the most honest and frank report I have ever seen of a NAMM show. Given the abuse you have taken I hope this continues in the future for all of us that cannot attend.


Rob


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## rob morsberger (Jan 25, 2007)

What he said.


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## lux (Jan 25, 2007)

poisonous....hmmm....werent you banned from NS? i recall a EWQL guy recently doin some nice humourous comics about bad NS censorship...

now, this place is poisonous...

hmmmmm


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## Doug Rogers (Jan 25, 2007)

lux @ Thu Jan 25 said:


> poisonous....hmmm....werent you banned from NS? i recall a EWQL guy recently doin some nice humourous comics about bad NS censorship...
> 
> now, this place is poisonous...
> 
> hmmmmm



Some of you may remember the early days at NS where there was a genuine interest (that built that forum to what it was) in having access and a dialog with the people that developed the tools you use to do what you do (which is quite unique, btw, you don't see Mr. Steinberg, Mr. Apple, Mr. Motu, etc., participating in open forums with their users). 

For a while it was very helpful to both sides, which I believe resulted in improvements to your tools that benefited everyone, then the slide began, and the moderators went completely overboard and banned so many that this place got started (we were part of the banned btw). 

I now see the same attitude that destroyed NS creeping in here (just read through this thread as an example of the us and them attitude), and it's a fact some developers that contributed to this place a while ago don't come here anymore. My partner is one of them. 

So, all I'm saying is this. If you value that access and input, it's not a good strategy to ridicule almost every developer that showed up at NAMM, not with your opinions about their products - who cares about that - it's just one person's opinion (and it was mostly favorable to us), but about all the other demeaning inaccurate comments, like, we were running a piano demo with a midi guitar (ha ha), like we were some morons that don't know the first thing about what we are doing. That causes us to reevaluate our usefulness here (especially when we are really busy, and have our own forum where the conversation is generally more productive for both sides). 

That's it from me, you can have the last word.

- Doug


----------



## lux (Jan 25, 2007)

Doug, I'll tell you how I see it:

- Mike Green is a musician, member of Vi Control forum. He was at Namm and decided to share some impression with other members. He reported his opinions here, they were free to open discussion, and still are. 

But he's not an official reporter or whatever, he's just a person that liked to share some thoughts with online friends. Never heard from him that it was an official review of EWQL products or whatever. He saw things and reported his own ideas. I'm sorry but I still cant see how this could be offensive. 

Also, every developer has right and is invited to use the quote button and add counter impressions to every quote from him, thats what forums are for imho.

- about ridiculize, i think perhaps this could be seen under a different perspective. I've been to several demonstration here in italy, for many products. Well, I know it can appear unrespectful, but If you are a bit more than average skilled computer musician often you find most part of the demonstrations, how to say, funny. Mostly because marketing strategies in demos are more oriented to entry level customers. Nothing wrong with that imho, its just a matter of target.
Also, I know its difficult to understand from a developer's perspective, but i think Mike's irony reflects our common approach to music and products, thats mostly fun-based. I would not be afraid of that, considering that, despite free speech and fun, most of us have our pockets continously damaged by compulsive sampled based purchases :mrgreen: 

I will not comment the usefulness thing. Lemme just remind to all of us that you have been always free to talk, offer infos and support here. Always.

That said, i would prefer not to have the last word. I invite you to continue discussing here as much as you want. :smile: 

Luca


----------



## IvanP (Jan 25, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Thu Jan 25 said:


> So, all I'm saying is this. If you value that access and input, it's not a good strategy to ridicule almost every developer that showed up at NAMM, not with your opinions about their products - who cares about that - it's just one person's opinion (and it was mostly favorable to us), but about all the other demeaning inaccurate comments, like, we were running a piano demo with a midi guitar (ha ha), like we were some morons that don't know the first thing about what we are doing. That causes us to reevaluate our usefulness here (especially when we are really busy, and have our own forum where the conversation is generally more productive for both sides).
> 
> - Doug



I think this is a bit gone the NS way, in a sense that unless you praise a product, name it GPO or else, your opinion not only won't count, but you are entitled to be banned, have some bad reputation, etc.

I honestly don't felt any real offense in Mike's posts, I know enough how EW products are and what you can expect from them, so no, I wasn't biased NOT to buy the new products by Mike's post. 

And you could say...ok, but what about the new customers? Well, they'll judge by the demos, not by Mike's comments, just like we all did back then 

This leads again to the freedom of speech question...I understand that, because of you hard work in the new libraries, you could feel a bit sensible from that post...but think again, do you really think it's better to have a bunch of users who only praise your product? I am completely sure that, if Mr. G had listened more openly to the opinions back there, before the holocaust, the new libraries would have been much better..it's not a matter of selecting only opinions from those who like the library... VSL listened when people asked for a different Horn section and they did it right, and wow I remember how bad the comments were back then, just to put an example...

I think you are doing a great work at EW, that you listen to your potential customers (I was one of the guys who asked for a ethnic voice library, Nick said it was impossible, and voilà...you finally did it! ) (now do that ancient orchestral instruments library!) 

So please, don't let this fall into something that didn't work before... 

This is not NS for sure, and Developpers are very well apreciated here, just like you are.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 25, 2007)

What Ivan says. Mike's report didn't change my opinion of EW products.
I use them and will continue to use them.

Mike's report was fun to read and useful as a preiliminary feel what was going down at NAAM. But of course I will do the research and make my opinion about it myself.


...and if Mike confused a guitar sound for a piano sound, he now stands corrected (time to get the wax removed from your ears Mike :wink: :mrgreen: )

There are only two types of forums: 
- those that enforce severe censorship and where all posts remain politically correct 
- those that allow freedom of speech and where all sorts of opinions are voiced, including the out of control sort

Luckily for us here, VI-Control falls in the second category...


----------



## Niah (Jan 25, 2007)

Doug you seem to be suggesting auto-censorship? Mike went to NAMM and reported what he saw.
We can all watch the same movie but we will all have diferent perspectives of what we saw.

If Mike and the rest of us don't have the freedom to say what's on our mind, then where can we say it? We already have to watch our mouths about comments and opinions we post in all the product/dev forums...


----------



## midphase (Jan 25, 2007)

> I now see the same attitude that destroyed NS creeping in here (just read through this thread as an example of the us and them attitude), and it's a fact some developers that contributed to this place a while ago don't come here anymore. My partner is one of them.
> 
> So, all I'm saying is this. If you value that access and input, it's not a good strategy to ridicule almost every developer that showed up at NAMM



Doug,

I have to take issue with your statements. There is such a thing as freedom of speech....look into it. Your statement above sounds to me like a veiled threat (ie. if you don't stop being critical of our products, I won't show up around here no more).

You seem to forget that the participation of developers to public forums such as these has resulted in increased business for them (and I would say that EW has been one of the greatest to benefit).

You also seem to forget that extreme statements made on these forums are generally taken with huge grains of salt and not considered to be valid unless several others chime in to support such statement. If your product is ultimately good, then you have little to worry about.

I think it's fair if you take some heat about your new products seeming a bit "buggy" on the floor and probably not ready to ship for a while. It's a reasonable assumption and it's up to you to prove it wrong by delivering a solid bug free product when promised. I think it's fair for Eric to take some heat on the absence of an announcement or new products, and I think it's fair for the AI gang to take some heat on what appears to be an "ok but not spectacular" product.

Ultimately, it is you guys (the developers) who will have the last word. If EW ships solid products on schedule then Mike's words will be forgotten. If Eric's new RMX thingy is amazing then all sins will be erased. If AI is truly a remarkable sounding library then everyone will be lining up to buy it.

As I stated before, if you can't take the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen...however I do hope that you can take the heat (and Nick, and Eric, and all of the others) because by participating in these forums, everybody wins.


----------



## choc0thrax (Jan 25, 2007)

Doug doesn't want this to become like NS but he's starting to sound like that's the perfect place for him.


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## Hermitage59 (Jan 25, 2007)

As a complete offside, did anyone who went to NAMM notice if any of the sample companies were running their demos and programs with Vista?

And as we're having a healthy discussion about relationships between users and developers, do any of the developers who read here have any plans to port their sample players and editors to some sort of Linux?. I'd be interested if it's possible to trim down the number of boxes needed to run big libraries by running VI's/VST/etc.. on a dedicated Linux OS, and take advantage of increased RAM/more efficient CPU....

Just curious.

Alex.


----------



## kid-surf (Jan 25, 2007)

Doug,

It is perplexing to me how you could so entirely miss the gist of what has happened in this thread.


Let me bullet point one thing for you.

• The us -vs- them was mostly my and Peter's discussion and it had to do entirely with 'theoretically' owing one's career to, _you_, the developer. Again. I don't owe _you_ my career. I'm sorry, but I refuse to see it any other way. I simply use some of your products. That is the extent of, _you_, the developers involvement in my career.

(I won't speak for anyone else on that)

That is the gist of the us -vs- them discussion---from my point of view that is.

Moving on...

Poisonous --- You are not simply suggesting, but are flat out 'announcing' that we should not take it upon ourselves to share opinion as individuals. You say "who cares about that". Well, I care about that. And many others here do too. I appreciate hearing how my 'pals' feel about these products--away from all the hype of print ads and so forth (which I don't read). We composers have a right to share our individualistic opinions. As I said before, developers are 'lucky' to have this resource in which they are able to peek in and see how "individuals" _really feel_ about their products. That is of far more value than any 'controlled' environment. Fortunately the developers do not control this site the way they do NS -- and/or their own site.

You bring your partners name up without acknowledging the slamming of VSL he's done over the past few years. Come on, man. VSL has sold fine anyway. And so have your products. Maybe I missed Nick's apology to VSL along the way? 

The us -vs- them, as I said, had everything to do with owing one's career to a developer, or not, nothing to do with any real world situations, IMO. Only a speculative idea presented by "one" person. Peter. Then rebuked by another. Me. Now you are turning this into an actual situation of an us -vs- them by not only calling our opinions poisonous but also suggesting we keep quite, or else. Or else you won't grace us with your presence and "allow" us to help you make your product better--which in turn makes you more money. Interesting your perspective on this.

if you decide to take your ball and go home that's up to you. But I personally feel that's a little childish. By and large we all use something you've developed quite often. Go have a look at what I have registered with you. The only thing I'm vocal about not liking is your strings. That is my right. I don't like them, so I say so. Why? Because I want 'other' developers to know that there are those of us out here that want something else. Maybe they'll consider taking on the task or maybe they won't. And this is why I may just do my own string lib. So I get what I want.

And then guess what happens... some people, maybe you and Nick, maybe people here, just might say that 'my' strings suck. Fine, it's an opinion. 


Opinions can not be inaccurate. They do not suggest ultimate truth.


o·pin·ion
–noun
1.	a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.	a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.


Just in case you forgot what an opinion is....


----------



## Ashermusic (Jan 25, 2007)

Doug Rogers @ Thu Jan 25 said:


> lux @ Thu Jan 25 said:
> 
> 
> > poisonous....hmmm....werent you banned from NS? i recall a EWQL guy recently doin some nice humourous comics about bad NS censorship...
> ...



Doug, I am sorry but the time any developer spends on a forum like this saves him additional dollars that would have to be spent marketing. While it is true that time=money the opposite is also frequently true.

As for your booth, when I went to hear the Fab Four plug-in there was a fellow playing the midi guitar and he was friendly and obviously talented. However, when I asked him to show me the Ludwig drum sounds he did not know how and told me that a guy would be there later who could. When I walked by 1/2 hour later it was still him so I moved on. (And btw he played the wrong lick on "Ticket To Ride" and I had to sing it to him. Not a big deal.)

Mike has a right to give his impressions and we value it. We also fully expect that where you think there were factual mistatements you will say so and we value that also.

If however you think we are going to walk on eggshells in order not to offend you and cause you to leave you are probably wrong and IMHO it would not be smart business for you.


----------



## synergy543 (Jan 25, 2007)

Doug,

Mike's playful and entertaining comments in no way lessened my opinion of East West nor you. In fact, it drew my attention to your new products. My respect for you and your company is determined by your own actions. Despite the fact that I disagree with your assesement of this thread and forum, I respect your stepping in to discuss, listen, and respond. Your answers to my questions and concerns alone were nothing less than impressive. You have earned your respect; you do not need to ask for it.

Now jump into that Ferrari and go have the vaction you deserve man! 

Cheers,

Greg


----------



## JohnnyMarks (Jan 25, 2007)

Oh come on, Doug's been direct, but certainly diplomatic on this.

I don't buy creating special classes of relationships, some where you regard people with respect and care (family, friends, colleagues), and others...differently (people you trade with, people you don't know, etc.). Composers and developers (and gardeners and waitresses and...) can welcome honest critiques, but we all want to be regarded.

I'm not saying Mike said anything outrageous, far from it, but there was here and there the whiff of harmless ridicule people reserve for those they don't know, for times they're not around. We can pay more than lip service to the "developers are welcome" line by being mindful of their presence - as we are when critiqueing a colleague's posting in the "members composition" area. 

Think of NAMM as the "developers composition" area. 

I suspect, also, that it was the tone of some of the accompanying "what we (don't) owe developers" posts that left a bad taste as much as anything. I certainily winced a couple times reading these (and was reminded of the alienation and bitterness the "Industry" in L.A. can sometimes engender).

Nothing to do with free speech. We can choose to say anything we want.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm sorry to have to take an unpopular position, but I have to say in all honesty that I see Doug's point in this case.

This has nothing to do with free speech or anyone not voicing opinions or not saying bad things about products or anything like that. Nobody is saying everyone isn't free to say whatever he or she wants, and I haven't heard Doug suggest that this forum should be censored or that Mike shouldn't post his opinions. But that doesn't mean people *should* say whatever they want in public - which is what this is - any more than you should fart loudly in a restaurant just because it's not against the law.

Put yourself in Doug's position, having invested a lot of time, money, and work in several products that you're most likely very proud of. Now re-read this thread.

Are you honestly *not* going to take at least some of it personally?! The truth is that Mike did post some things that weren't 100% accurate (even though he straightened them out later). Doug said that he appreciated his humor; it's really what's happened after Mike's blog that is getting out of hand.

Think about it: would you enjoy taking part in this forum if you were Doug? I sure wouldn't, and it's unfortunate that the other Nick left because he didn't.

It's easy to take an "aw c'mon, toughen up and take the heat" position, but why would he want to? I don't think anyone's ever accused Doug of being a shrinking violet. Is it necessary to make him or any other developer unhappy about taking part here? That doesn't serve any of us well.

My suggestion is that everyone act as if the people they're talking about are in the room with them, because they are.

[edit:] In other words, what Johnny said much better than I did.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2007)

And Chocothrax: PIPE DOWN, FOGHORN!


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Jan 25, 2007)

I'd like to have Doug AND Nick as regulars on these forums - my only worry is that I believe Doug is not a musician/composer (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!) which sometimes can make forums members construe his posts as being too much "business-oriented" and less "application-oriented.

I believe the athmosphere here solid enough not to run into NS-like control and censorshop. VI has been set up by a serious, open-minded and dedicated musician, again quite different from the situtation at NS. I still have no clue whether the moderators there are musicians and composers themselves. Which I really find odd. They only moderate, never partipate actively in discussions on music, gear, mixing, etc. I guess that may be related to the unfortunate level drop of the last 2-3 years.


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## Thonex (Jan 25, 2007)

Hey,

I think we are all on the same side here:

1) We all want the best products
2) Developers want the best products
3) Open exchange (even this one) can result in a better understanding of Developer/artist's needs.
4) Most want healthy dialogs where it's ok to disagree


I hope Doug keeps coming back here (an independent forum not run by developers) to get a sense of what composers want in a product... I also wish Nick would come back if what Doug said was true.

I do sometimes feel bad for the developers because although they may want to say something, they can't because of obvious NDA reasons... but I think a healthy middle ground can be achieved... and I think this has been the case for the most post here at VI-Control.

My opinion,

T


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 25, 2007)

Most developers should study how Eric Persing acts on the forums he posts on. He NEVER puts down the forum or its members, regardless of what any _individual_ might post. He simply corrects people if they're wrong, always with class. Comparing this forum to NS is way off mark, as is using the poison analogy. But then again, it sure gets a lot of our panties in a knot (myself included)... maybe that was the point. :roll: My advice, FWIW, is to just move on, and wait for demos. :wink:


----------



## midphase (Jan 25, 2007)

> I'm sorry to have to take an unpopular position, but I have to say in all honesty that I see Doug's point in this case.



Hehe....Nick fishing for advertising dollars! Just joking of course.


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## Daryl (Jan 25, 2007)

Actually, I think of this forum as a bit like an orchestra "band" room. We, as musicians, are allowed to bitch as much as we like about the Conductor (developers). He (she) is always welcome to visit, but it will be on our terms. When we sit down to play in front of him (their own forum) it is on his terms.

D


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## kid-surf (Jan 25, 2007)

Ditto Thonex and Ned...

Eric recognizes that the same people complaining are the very people that are supporting his company. It's plain bad business to slam your customer. Suck it up. Be diplomatic despite all else. Period. As they say, the customer is always right...

In my world the director is always right. Unless! I can figure out a diplomatic way to present my point of view. Otherwise I bite my tongue because it's smart business. Why tell them they are a friggn moron. Not gonna help either of us -- and may not be true. I may just have gotten my feelings hurt.

It's the reason agents make a lot of money. They are always at fault. And that is why the deal gets made. The deal is more important than their pride. 

How many other people in this industry have to suck it up. If there are people here chiming in that aren't used to this environment then, ok, I see why you feel it should be one of more coddling. But not if you are used to the hollywood environment. (but what about a thanks from the developer? Why is it just us who needs to thank them hand over fist then again in words. That just feels silly to me. Not only silly, narcissistic on their part.)

Please let me know when Doug thanks us all for the support we've given his company over the years. How many hundreds of thousands of dollars was made from people in this here poisonous forum? Might be entertaining to add up some numbers from people in just this thread. I would guess that I'm about 10 grand in 2-3 years. Just a guess....

You're welcome Doug.


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## kid-surf (Jan 25, 2007)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 25 said:


> Actually, I think of this forum as a bit like an orchestra "band" room. We, as musicians, are allowed to bitch as much as we like about the Conductor (developers). He (she) is always welcome to visit, but it will be on our terms. When we sit down to play in front of him (their own forum) it is on his terms.
> 
> D



Similarly, I feel like this is a bit of a focus group. If you are a developer who decides to put together a focus group (paid), do you then storm in and call them poisonous if they say things you don't like. Or do you take notes. 

And yet, here is a focus group developers get to peek in on for FREE. Doug, some corporations PAY for this info.

I guess you could always wait for people out in the parking lot too... put 'em up. 

Sorry if I find this silly... but I do.


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## Chrislight (Jan 25, 2007)

Well, I've been hanging on the sidelines here, but thought I'd jump in with my two cents worth. :wink: 

First of all, VI is a public forum where both composers and developers alike are welcome.  Frederick has worked very hard (more than most people realize) to maintain a positive, supportive atmosphere here for everybody. Of course, that is not always easy when individuals sometimes get upset and end up saying things in a way they might not have had they taken some time to calm down and not shoot from the hip. Once the submit button is hit, it's too late then (unless you are an admin ) and the unfortunate words are out there for anybody to quote. For the most part though, people have been respectful in what they say, even when delivering a so-called criticism about something. There is certainly nothing wrong with giving an honest opinion and I think everybody realizes that an opinion is just someone's personal view of things, which we can agree or disagree with. We all see and hear things differently and that's part of the beauty of life. 

Secondly, VI was established from the beginning as a place where people can express their opinions without fear of censorship or being banned. We simply are not going to start deleting posts that somebody doesn't like (unless there is a legal issue involved). This is one thing Frederick has been adament about. If somebody says something another doesn't like or agree with, they are most welcome to respond and we hope that these interactions will be done in as respectful a way as possible. We have actually had very, very few heated "discussions" because I think people really do respect the positive nature of VI and don't want to pollute things here. 

I have never had the slightest sense of any kind of "us vs. them" thing here on VI in regards to composers and developers. Composers need developers and developers need composers - it really is as simple as that. I believe the developers who have taken the time to come here and talk to members, answers questions and address concerns have benefited greatly. Yeah, it's hard to take what is viewed as "criticism" sometimes, but realizing it's not a personal thing can greatly help diffuse the impact. Honest critiques can help improve a product along with an improvement in sales! That's a win/win situation for everybody. 

Anyway, I think another group hug is in order!


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## Evan Gamble (Jan 25, 2007)

Chrislight @ Thu Jan 25 said:


> Anyway, I think another group hug is in order!



Yeah I've got no fluid left in me so it should be safe now.


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## choc0thrax (Jan 25, 2007)

Evan Gamble @ Thu Jan 25 said:


> Chrislight @ Thu Jan 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, I think another group hug is in order!
> ...



I can spot ya some if you need.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 25, 2007)

"Nick fishing for advertising dollars! Just joking of course."

I'm not, but I'm thinking of hiring Johnny Marks...


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## Mike Greene (Jan 25, 2007)

Johnny and Nick make a nice point about being aware of who's in the room when we critique, but I gotta go with Daryl on this one. This is a place where we need to be able to bitch about stuff when we're frustrated and we certainly need to be able to speak honestly about products, good or bad, when it comes up. No matter who's in the room and may get their toes stepped on.

I have much respect for developers. But my first allegiance is to my friends who are like me: guys wondering which libraries to buy. In fact, I think I've come up with a little something I like to call:

*The Perfect Composer/Developer Analogy:*

We're all at a party. We composers are the guys (or ladies, if you're a woman reading this) and the developers are the girls. Now, let's say I see Kid Surf walking off to one of the bedrooms with some girl he's been working for the last couple hours. So far so good, right? But suppose _I_ happen to know that this girl ain't a girl at all . . . and is really a dude in drag! (It's none of your business how I know this.) Obviously, as Kid's friend, it's my responsibility to warn him immediately, even though it may hurt his companion's feelings! See how well the analogy works!

Wait a minute. Sorry. This is a bad analogy. Because if this really happened, I wouldn't warn Kid at all. I'd just keep my mouth shut and let him take "her" on into the bedroom. But of course, I'd let all of _you_ in on what's happening so when Kid comes stumbling out with "that look" on his face, we can all laugh our freakin' heads off!

But you know what? This is a good analogy after all. Because Kid might be mad for a minute. But soon enough, he'd be laughing right along with the rest of us and we'd all be drinking beers together. Then we're all laughing _with_ Kid.

It's the same as my remark about the demo I saw (no matter how many denials I get) of Pianos done with a guitar controller. It's not an insult. Maybe a bit embarrassing, but what difference does it make? If we're all friends and don't take ourselves too seriously, we can laugh about it together.

Doug, I think it would be great to hear some inside stories about some of the adventures we all know had to be going on in the EW booth. Heck, we all know what it's like to deal with beta (or even alpha) software, changing features, controllers that for some reason won't work. Believe me, I want to laugh _with_ you about this stuff. It ain't so bad. It ain't like you went off like Kid with some dude in drag! :mrgreen:


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## Frederick Russ (Jan 25, 2007)

Ditto to what Craig said.

All VI Members - composers & developers - are all entitled to their own points of view. We encourage you to be yourself. This occasionally makes for some spectacular threads. Rather than interfere with the process we let it unfold naturally. Oddly enough, I've seen some long-lasting friendships built in the process. It also seems that a lot gets resolved this way although it can be messy at times. 

Its been my personal hope at VI that everybody here can recognize that its the synergy of our differences and eventually finding the common ground between us is what ultimately unites us as a community. Musicians and developers are both very creative types and have equally strong opinions. Some are valid while others are open to debate on both sides of the fence. It was never my intention however to make anyone feel alienated here at VI. As an administrator its a tough balancing act really.

What I'm wanting personally though is finding Win-Win solutions between all of us. Having a false peace won't lead to a true and genuine peace in my opinion. Sometimes its important to speak honestly about things out in the open and air our differences in a natural way to catch a glimpse of the truth that we're all really not that different from one another ultimately. The higher way and synergy between us is when we can find common ground and who knows? What we build from the resulting synergism can be far more than the sum of all the parts combined. 

The truth be known is that I believe we need each other and its probably better to have a place like VI to be ourselves, air our differences and find ways to be even closer-knit not only as a community but also within the peculiar industry we've landed ourselves in - the world of virtual instruments, sample libraries etc. To me, the spirit of VI is a lovely place to be and you're all lovely people to be around.


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## Craig Sharmat (Jan 25, 2007)

[schild=19 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]Peace Love +Drugs![/schild]


oops did i say that?


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## Chrislight (Jan 25, 2007)

[schild=11 fontcolor=006400 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]Mod Him!![/schild]


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## Hermitage59 (Jan 25, 2007)

Is the bar open?

I can't seem to find the Cognac......

And you've run out of salted peanuts again.......


:wink:


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## artsoundz (Jan 26, 2007)

<cue music>... roll credits........


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## Daryl (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm sorry guys, but whilst it might be nice to think of developers as nice warm, fuzzy people, and they may well be, they are still developers. They (like us) are running a business, and their job is to part us from our money. As composers, we have no such agenda with each other, so the situation is different between developers and composers, whether you like it or not. I'm sure that I'm part of the problem with chasing developers off the forum (if indeed that has happened), but anyone who wants to sell me something has to prove that I need it. If this requires me to get them to justify their stance, then so be it.

D


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## artsoundz (Jan 26, 2007)

credit roll superimposed over wide shot of studio audience....

Panel is up from the couch talking, laughing, kid surf and tranvestite/actor mock dancing in background...

music ends

cue commercial....

aaaaand were... out.


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## lux (Jan 26, 2007)

Craig Sharmat @ Thu Jan 25 said:


> [schild=19 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]Peace Love +Drugs![/schild]
> 
> 
> oops did i say that?





Chrislight @ Thu Jan 25 said:


> [schild=11 fontcolor=006400 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]Mod Him!![/schild]









done.


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## Chrislight (Jan 26, 2007)

:mrgreen: Good going Luca! That's why you're on the Mod Team! :lol:


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## Mike Greene (Jan 26, 2007)

artsoundz @ Fri Jan 26 said:


> credit roll superimposed over wide shot of studio audience....
> 
> Panel is up from the couch talking, laughing, kid surf and tranvestite/actor mock dancing in background...
> 
> ...


Cue commercial?!?!? I thought you told us this was going to have a _theatrical_ release, not a damn TV movie!!!


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## kid-surf (Jan 26, 2007)

Have I ever mentioned how great the The Crying Game is... Fantastic flick. 

I saw it with my girlfriend... 

...her deep voice? She was getting over a cold. Why do you ask???


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## tgfoo (Jan 26, 2007)

The studio pulled out at the last minute, luckily TNT offered to pick it up...


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## artsoundz (Jan 26, 2007)

Straight to DVD. Kid and The man/girl put us over budget.But the GPO commercial kept the door open.........


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## PaulR (Jan 30, 2007)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Jan 24 said:


> > What about your refrigerator?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I worship The Box.



Is it a Smeg? You have to love anything with a name like Smeg.

I also have it on very good authority from a Liverpudlian bird that Winston Churchill was The USA's first black President.


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## Alex W (Jan 30, 2007)

the exaust fan over my stove is a smeg...

oh how I laughed when I first saw that company logo...


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 30, 2007)

Nope, it's not a smeg, and actually I don't worship smeg.


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