# They don't get it



## Mike Fox (Jun 2, 2018)

I compose horror music for haunted attractions. When I tell people this, I always get the exact same response: "Huh?". Even after explaining to people in great detail what that actually entails, they still don't quite understand.

Is this common for anyone else?


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## ghobii (Jun 2, 2018)

Huh?


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## Dear Villain (Jun 2, 2018)

My wife and I gave up two six figure careers simultaneously to pursue our classical accordion and clarinet duo full time, while I compose chamber/orchestral works for live performance, all of which earns less than a fast food worker. And I live in a blue collar town where explaining my life choices to "locals" would yield exactly the same reaction as you're getting. Just do your thing well, and those that appreciate what you do will recognize your efforts. 

There's an expression I once heard that applies here: to those that understand, no explanation is necessary; to those that don't, no explanation will ever do.

Cheers!
Dave


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## Mike Fox (Jun 2, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> My wife and I gave up two six figure careers simultaneously to pursue our classical accordion and clarinet duo full time, while I compose chamber/orchestral works for live performance, all of which earns less than a fast food worker. And I live in a blue collar town where explaining my life choices to "locals" would yield exactly the same reaction as you're getting. Just do your thing well, and those that appreciate what you do will recognize your efforts.
> 
> There's an expression I once heard that applies here: to those that understand, no explanation is necessary; to those that don't, no explanation will ever do.
> 
> ...


Brilliant response! Thank you.


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 2, 2018)

Show them your pay checks. They may not understand the music, but the money speaks for itself.


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## Morning Coffee (Jun 2, 2018)

It's not exactly a common job though, why not just say music composer or I write music for a living? (I would love any of those job titles if I made money from it!)


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## gregh (Jun 2, 2018)

Like Morning Coffee I wouldn't expect anyone to get it straight away. i'd be annoyed if they dismissed me because of lack of interest in what sounds like a great job - but being dismissed is always annoying


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## Daniel (Jun 2, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> I compose horror music for haunted attractions. When I tell people this, I always get the exact same response: "Huh?". Even after explaining to people in great detail what that actually entails, they still don't quite understand.
> 
> Is this common for anyone else?


The work of composers these days are very heavy and risky, they should be able to make music like Super Heroes Movie, Drama Movies, Suspense Movies, Thriller / Horror Movies, Comedy / Cartoon / Animation Movies. I think you are talking to people who don't understand the art/music.


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## JJP (Jun 3, 2018)

Try telling them you work as an orchestrator or any other music prep-related job! Eyes glaze over. Then explain what you actually do, and the response is usually, "Oh... uh... so you write music then?" Usually at that point I just say, "Yes. Yes I do."

You'll eventually work out a quick way of handling this for dinners and cocktail parties.


Alan Abel, well-known principal percussionist for the Philadelphia Orchestra, once said he was at a party when a woman asked him, "What do you do?" 

He answered, "I'm the principal percussionist for the Philadelphia Orchestra."

She replied, "No I mean, 'What do you do for a living?'"

Abel answered, "Well I also teach at Temple University."

She was satisfied with that answer.


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## gsilbers (Jun 3, 2018)

outside of los angeles any of those entertainment jobs are wierd to poeple. i just dont get what people outside of LA talk about


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## Divico (Jun 3, 2018)

Well for some people it probably is just ordering noises and tones in a specific way on a timescale ....
Maybe this is due to the fact that people connect music with pleasure or an hobby and thats why they cant accept that it can be hard work.
You know normal people hate their jobs and are bored by them ....


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## robgb (Jun 3, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> I compose horror music for haunted attractions. When I tell people this, I always get the exact same response: "Huh?". Even after explaining to people in great detail what that actually entails, they still don't quite understand.
> 
> Is this common for anyone else?


I'll admit that I didn't know this was a thing, but I understand it completely and think it's pretty damn cool.


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## VgsA (Jun 3, 2018)

I get the ''but it's easy because it's all in the computer, right?'' one quite often. Like, they want me to import X pop song to my DAW and click some sort of magical button that converts it into a beautiful orchestral track. Same happens with digital drawing, though. Not everyone knows how it works. I think it's normal, although I tend to be careful in case the person is like ''oh, I could do that easily''.


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## Dear Villain (Jun 3, 2018)

I think you really need to have your own sense of self-worth and awareness of what you bring to the table and seek out an audience that understands/appreciates it. For me, I'm less bothered by the views of those "on the outside" but rather by the lumping of all musicians in to one category, including the reality that many 14 year old bedroom mouse clickers can call themselves "artists" and put "stuff" out there that buries all the quality work by those that are highly skilled, educated, and committed to their art.


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## bryla (Jun 3, 2018)

I just say I write film music. Then my girlfriend looks at me dissatisfied as to say “no, come on and tell them what you REALLY do”. I’d rather not because of the long explanations eventually resulting in “so you write film music?”


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## gregh (Jun 3, 2018)

bryla said:


> I just say I write film music. Then my girlfriend looks at me dissatisfied as to say “no, come on and tell them what you REALLY do”. I’d rather not because of the long explanations eventually resulting in “so you write film music?”


ha ha - similarly for when I was an academic doing research in neuroscience. People were always quite interested coz everyone loves brains, but explaining what I actually did was way too hard. There was either the 1 minute or the one hour explanation


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## robgb (Jun 3, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> including the reality that many 14 year old bedroom mouse clickers can call themselves "artists" and put "stuff" out there that buries all the quality work by those that are highly skilled, educated, and committed to their art.


Not particularly fond of this dismissive attitude. Some of those fourteen year old mouse clickers may well be geniuses and there's no need for such sweeping generalizations. An education and commitment to your art does not necessarily make someone any better than the kid tossing off a tune because he gets a kick out of it, and, in some cases might even be a detriment. The bottom line is talent. Some people have it and some people don't, no matter how old they are or how hard they work. And if you're TRULY producing quality, nothing will bury it.


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## Dear Villain (Jun 3, 2018)

Of course, there are exceptions, and of course "sweeping generalizations" will always bring out those individuals that simply must point out those exceptions. Point made, let's move on...save for the final point: (if you're TRULY producing quality, nothing will bury it) I call B.S. on this. There are likely more "hidden treasures" out there worthy of admiration than those works which have already garnered accolades and recognition. No, I don't have stats or empirical data to prove it, nor do you to prove that nothing will bury quality work...which is a "sweeping gen..." Nevermind


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## robgb (Jun 3, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Of course, there are exceptions, and of course "sweeping generalizations" will always bring out those individuals that simply must point out those exceptions. Point made, let's move on...save for the final point: (if you're TRULY producing quality, nothing will bury it) I call B.S. on this. There are likely more "hidden treasures" out there worthy of admiration than those works which have already garnered accolades and recognition. No, I don't have stats or empirical data to prove it, nor do you to prove that nothing will bury quality work...which is a "sweeping gen..." Nevermind


I think my problem was more with the tone of what you said. But tone is a difficult thing on a forum, so I'll assume that you didn't mean to be a snob. Lord knows I sound like one at times.


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## RiffWraith (Jun 3, 2018)

Same here.

I used to work at an audio post facility. When I told people that, I always got the exact same response: "Huh?". Even after explaining to people in great detail what that actually entailed, they still didn't quite understand.

It didn't take me long to start telling people I worked in construction.


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## Dear Villain (Jun 3, 2018)

robgb said:


> I think my problem was more with the tone of what you said. But tone is a difficult thing on a forum, so I'll assume that you didn't mean to be a snob. Lord knows I sound like one at times.



And I'll assume your next post on this thread will be of value to the original poster and not simply calling people names in a passive aggressive manner. 

To the original poster: sorry for this temporary derailment. It should be done now...at least from my perspective, it is!

Edit: robgb now on ignore.


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## robgb (Jun 3, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> And I'll assume your next post on this thread will be of value to the original poster and not simply calling people names in a passive aggressive manner.


I wasn't calling you names. I was making an observation and being quite honest about it. I'm sorry if my honesty offended you. And, yes, I'm done, too.


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## robgb (Jun 3, 2018)

As for the OP, I'd like to hear more about this work. I find it fascinating.


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## Thomas Kallweit (Jun 3, 2018)

It's artificial "cryptic" wonderwork - so I guess why not say it like Morning Coffee formed it?
Of course many people won't get it. But I guess there are some more jobs where people struggle to understand.
I understand that.


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## C M Dess (Jun 4, 2018)

There's some strange split. Some get it and they're like oh yeah ain't nothin. Others begin a line of questioning which leads them back to not understanding. Most just think you're crazy I would hope.

Some don't understand you can do everything on a computer at this point. They envision some sort of "studio" like in Nashville or something. Real glamorous shit. I rewrote my biographical descriptions to help to simplify and clarify that I'm a composer.

CM Bio
I make spaceships which orbit Neptune. Those ships are driven by bionic puppies. Then I send the data from the puppy ships to Cern AI systems. I extrapolate (make pancakes from) the particle higgs boson but not neutrino, NEVER neutrino, shady sucka. Disney cuts fat checks signed by Iger himself because Disney owns everything silly. Here are some fine examples of my work buried at least 60db under the noise they call the script. Here's a link to a nice portfolio but the player won't work on your device. So sorry.

Hope that helps, good talk.


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## Rodney Money (Jun 4, 2018)

Here was a conversation I had with someone I just met 2 weeks ago:

Person: "You're a composer writing a concerto for a university? You're going to be famous!"
Me: "Really? And how many other living composers can you name that are famous because of writing some concerto for a school?"
Person: *silence*
Me: "No, here's the reality: I have spent 2 years writing this piece, while trying to balance being a 'great' father and husband, stressing over every little detail refusing to let it go until it reaches the absolute best that I can possibly do, and throughout this process the work is constantly interrupted by lesser commissions and responsibilities such as: writing/ arranging hymns and songs for churches, writing for my publishers, writing fanfares for public events, writing music for school jazz bands and choirs, and silly other compositions like marching band shows, and when I am totally done, it has been premiered, recorded, and published, my life will go on as normal: with me worrying about things I should've changed, edited, or done differently, starting the next piece that I will obsessed about, my local newspaper being silent not caring, and praying that I will receive some kind of royalty check as small as it is to help with Christmas or because my car is breaking down. But the best thing that may happen with this piece is: getting a thank you from the performer, receiving another commission, people will hopefully enjoy it at the premier, I will sign a few programs, go home, and maybe receive one email how the piece 'really meant something' to one person. Then I will ask myself, 'Was it all worth it?' Answering, 'Hopefully. We'll see.' Then the piece might be performed again from all parts of the world, but I will never know unless I find out through Google or YouTube causing me to smile a little before I go into the kitchen, wash the dishes, and clean the living room floor because the dog just left me a surprise."


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## Dietz (Jun 4, 2018)

C M Dess said:


> [...] I'm a composer.
> 
> CM Bio
> I make spaceships which orbit Neptune. Those ships are driven by bionic puppies. Then I send the data from the puppy ships to Cern AI systems. I extrapolate (make pancakes from) the particle higgs boson but not neutrino, NEVER neutrino, shady sucka. Disney cuts fat checks signed by Iger himself because Disney owns everything silly. Here are some fine examples of my work buried at least 60db under the noise they call the script. Here's a link to a nice portfolio but the player won't work on your device. So sorry.
> ...





Thanks a lot for that.


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## Beluga (Jun 8, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> I compose horror music for haunted attractions. When I tell people this, I always get the exact same response: "Huh?". Even after explaining to people in great detail what that actually entails, they still don't quite understand.
> 
> Is this common for anyone else?



Some people I talked to said: "I didn't know this job existed, but.. wait a minute, all this music in films and commercials, it's true someone must have written it!". However, many will just slowly nod their heads probably imagining something outlandish that has little to do with what I actually do. Maybe me sitting in candle light writing notes with a feather and ink. There was a nice meme about this. Media composer - what my parents think I do what my friends think l do and so on. Have to find that again.

OK, found it - here you go:





But I have to admit that I didn’t know these parks used original music (or music at all), either. I’d be curious to listen to some of your work.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 8, 2018)

That's pretty cool that you get to write music for the haunted attractions. After my first visit to Disneyland in 2004, I was so impressed with the ride music that I bought the CD. Rides like Magic Mountain, California Screamin', Soaring Over California (by Goldsmith!), etc.


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## Mike Fox (Jun 12, 2018)

Beluga said:


> Some people I talked to said: "I didn't know this job existed, but.. wait a minute, all this music in films and commercials, it's true someone must have written it!". However, many will just slowly nod their heads probably imagining something outlandish that has little to do with what I actually do. Maybe me sitting in candle light writing notes with a feather and ink. There was a nice meme about this. Media composer - what my parents think I do what my friends think l do and so on. Have to find that again.
> 
> OK, found it - here you go:
> 
> ...



That meme is dead on!

Here is the latest track I did. You'll have to turn it up as it hasn't been mastered yet. "


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## Mike Fox (Jun 12, 2018)

robgb said:


> As for the OP, I'd like to hear more about this work. I find it fascinating.


Hey rob. What would you like to know?


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## robgb (Jun 12, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Hey rob. What would you like to know?


Curious how you got hooked up doing this, what your workflow is like. That kind of stuff.


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## Mike Fox (Jun 12, 2018)

robgb said:


> Curious how you got hooked up doing this, what your workflow is like. That kind of stuff.


Gotcha! Well, I've always been a horror movie junkie, and have always collected horror soundtracks (Danny Elfman was a major influence on me as a kid, and is probably responsible for me composing this kind of music). Anyway, I walked into a Halloween store one day and there was some horror music playing in the background. This wasn't some kind of horror theme compilation soundtrack, it was like, actual Halloween music that someone wrote just for the holiday. I didn't know such a thing existed, but the music turned out to be Midnight Syndicate. Little did I know, they were a group who had been writing Halloween music since the 90's, and haunted attractions all of the world had been playing their stuff. Well, when I found that out, a lightbulb turned on, and I quickly realized that was what I wanted to do. 

The only problem was that I only knew how to play guitar, and I didn't know anything about composing orchestral music (i still don't). I spent the next 3 years teaching myself (just like I had done with the guitar) how to fake it, and I think I became pretty decent at it. After posting some things on youtube, It didn't take long for people to reach out to me, requesting custom music, or asking If they could use my existing music for their haunts. This was really how it all started. 

Now, keep in mind I don't do this for a living. I'm a probbyist. It's the best of both worlds, because I get to compose what I want to compose, when I want to compose, and I still get to make some money on the side. With that said, my workflow is incredibly sporadic, because I never reach out to haunted attraction owners asking for work (I'm too damn lazy for that). Whenever my music is placed in a haunted attraction, or a commercial for a haunted attraction, it's usually because someone stumbled upon my music and requests to use it. Either that, or they request custom music. That's usually when I have to buckle down a little, because there are specific demands, and usually a deadline that comes with it. 

Even though I've been doing this more as a hobby, I think in the next few years I'm really going to pick up my game, learn a lot more, and possibly pursue horror music as more of a profession. Not with haunted attractions, but with games and films.


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 12, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Even though I've been doing this more as a hobby, I think in the next few years I'm really going to pick up my game, learn a lot more, and possibly pursue horror music as more of a profession. Not with haunted attractions, but with games and films.



You probably will not.

Nothing against you or your talent. But there are so many people that think "next year I am going to really ramp up and go full time". Five years later.....life happens.

If you are at all serious, do it. I hope you do and become successful.


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## Mike Fox (Jun 12, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You probably will not.
> 
> Nothing against you or your talent. But there are so many people that think "next year I am going to really ramp up and go full time". Five years later.....life happens.
> 
> If you are at all serious, do it. I hope you do and become successful.



Uh...thanks?


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## Beluga (Jun 13, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Gotcha! Well, I've always been a horror movie junkie, and have always collected horror soundtracks (Danny Elfman was a major influence on me as a kid, and is probably responsible for me composing this kind of music). Anyway, I walked into a Halloween store one day and there was some horror music playing in the background. This wasn't some kind of horror theme compilation soundtrack, it was like, actual Halloween music that someone wrote just for the holiday. I didn't know such a thing existed, but the music turned out to be Midnight Syndicate. Little did I know, they were a group who had been writing Halloween music since the 90's, and haunted attractions all of the world had been playing their stuff. Well, when I found that out, a lightbulb turned on, and I quickly realized that was what I wanted to do.
> 
> The only problem was that I only knew how to play guitar, and I didn't know anything about composing orchestral music (i still don't). I spent the next 3 years teaching myself (just like I had done with the guitar) how to fake it, and I think I became pretty decent at it. After posting some things on youtube, It didn't take long for people to reach out to me, requesting custom music, or asking If they could use my existing music for their haunts. This was really how it all started.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing your music and also your story!

It's true that making a living doing only one stlye of music is highly improbable. I'm a "horror movie junkie" myself, as you put it and was lucky to work on some awesome projects. However I will find myself as often working in fields outside of my comfort zone, this can be a beach party game, for example (hey didn't they play at the beach before the monster shark ate them?).


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## Dear Villain (Jun 13, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You probably will not.
> 
> Nothing against you or your talent. But there are so many people that think "next year I am going to really ramp up and go full time". Five years later.....life happens.
> 
> If you are at all serious, do it. I hope you do and become successful.



A guy calls himself "Desire Inspires" so that he can dismiss someone's dream with "you probably will not." Really, why do you feel he need to post this? Projecting on your own shortcomings, perhaps?


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## MatFluor (Jun 13, 2018)

Mike Fox said:


> Even though I've been doing this more as a hobby, I think in the next few years I'm really going to pick up my game, learn a lot more, and possibly pursue horror music as more of a profession. Not with haunted attractions, but with games and films.



We want to go into the same niche it seems - I too focus on horror.

Yeah - Desire Inpires has some truth - the opportunity cost of going fulltime rise over time. Stable job, Wife, Children... I save up money to go fulltime, and my plan is fixed - and I keep the opportunity costs at bay.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 13, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You probably will not.
> 
> Nothing against you or your talent. But there are so many people that think "next year I am going to really ramp up and go full time". Five years later.....life happens.
> 
> If you are at all serious, do it. I hope you do and become successful.



Wow, talk about some shitty advice here.

@Mike Fox stay focussed and be persistent, you won't know if you don't try.


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## robgb (Jun 13, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You probably will not.
> 
> Nothing against you or your talent. But there are so many people that think "next year I am going to really ramp up and go full time". Five years later.....life happens.


If I'd taken this attitude I never would have sold a screenplay, worked in the industry for over a decade, worked as a story editor or sold ten novels to the Big 5 publishers. Every step along the way there was someone whispering in my ear (and sometimes shouting), "Good luck, but success in the industry is a crap shoot and making it is something of a miracle." I ignored the naysayers and stayed focused on my dream, even when life happened. Even when I had to work in the wee hours and raise two kids and only got four hours sleep a night before having to get up and slave away at some shitty menial job. And you know what? It turned out that the naysayers were wrong. Making it wasn't something of a miracle. It was the byproduct of working my ass off to get there.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 13, 2018)

Well sad, robgb! And even if you were unsuccessful, you made an honest, wholehearted attempt. The naysayers are everywhere, you just have to treat them like white noise.


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 13, 2018)

Dear Villain said:


> Really, why do you feel he need to post this? Projecting on your own shortcomings, perhaps?



Yes!

I gave it a shot and bombed. I feel good though. I worked hard and had fun.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 13, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> Yes!
> 
> I gave it a shot and bombed. I feel good though. I worked hard and had fun.



Why did you stop?


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 13, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Why did you stop?



I didn’t make enough money.

I still make music, but I can’t pretend that I will be doing music licensing as a full time career. The music is out. The licenses are being made. The money is not adding up to a full time income.

I got stuff on over 260 TV series. Where in the hell is the cash? I do not know.


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## KerrySmith (Jun 13, 2018)

I just default to “I’m a musician.” That sorts things pretty quickly. Either they want to know more detail and ask, or else they get the “oh” face and scamper away quickly.


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## Mike Fox (Jun 14, 2018)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Wow, talk about some shitty advice here.
> 
> @Mike Fox stay focussed and be persistent, you won't know if you don't try.


Thank you for the words of encouragement!

I certainly wasn't born yesterday, and I think most serious composers by now fully realize how difficult it is to make a profitable living, yet some people still feel the need to "preach" the hardships that go with the territory.

My end goal isn't necessarily to become a game or film composer, but the pursuit itself is what I look forward to. If something rewarding spawns from that, then I'll be incredibly grateful for it. I think the knowledge that I'll pick up along the way is worth the endeavor!

As for now, I really am enjoying my place within the Halloween community. Even though I'm only semi-pro, I've benefited in ways that don't involve monetary gain. I've made life long friends, and have been offered opportunities that are actually better than money. To know that my music is being played all over the US (and even in other countries) on Halloween night is one of the biggest compliments and achievements a composer like me could wish for.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jun 14, 2018)

Like your Halloween gig, I prefer to have a few really big jobs over the course of a year, as opposed to a ton of smaller, low paying ones.


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## jhughes (Jun 14, 2018)

Desire Inspires said:


> You probably will not.
> 
> Nothing against you or your talent. But there are so many people that think "next year I am going to really ramp up and go full time". Five years later.....life happens.
> 
> ...


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## Desire Inspires (Jun 14, 2018)

Got it!


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