# 88 Key controller suggestions



## gbar (Aug 10, 2022)

So I got my new custom workstation/desk and am looking into getting a new 88-key controller. How is the M-Audio HAMMER 88 pro these days? Have they fixed the bugs?

I made a mistake when submitting requirements, and my keyboard shelf is 58 inches. so Doepfer LMK2 is out of the question due to 0.27" too wide :( I like pitch and mod wheels, but the Keylab88 has them set too far back, and I don't really like the action on that unit.

I thought the Hammer 88 Pro would be perfect, but some of the early reviews concern me.

I don't need a controller to do everything, but anything that minimizes the number of control surfaces on my table top is a plus.


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## HCMarkus (Aug 10, 2022)

Might want to change the thread title... it could throw some folks off.


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## gbar (Aug 10, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> Might want to change the thread title... it could throw some folks off.


fixed, thanks--typing in the dark.


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## Paulogic (Aug 11, 2022)

Maybe a good Piano is the way to go? No extra controls but in most cases a better
keybed or at least more choice in keybeds. You could try some and see which one
you like. As mentioned here before a lot... a keyb feel is totally personal.


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## Crossroads (Aug 11, 2022)

Perhaps look at Studiologic? They have some *chef's miss* keyboards. I own a Numa Nano and it is fantastic, although old. I think the newer ones are better.

I don't own a Hammer 88 but have owned the big old Oxygen 88 which I guess was it's predecessor and loved that thing to death. Was heavy though, and bulky. But that's why I loved it. If someone hadn't spilled a full cup of beer over it, I would've still used it.


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## outland (Aug 11, 2022)

I just picked up a Studiologic SL88 Grand. It replaces my ancient (and now dead) Kurzweil MidiBoard. It feels nothing like its predecessor, but that's fine as I intend to grow into its touch (which is truthfully far more pianistic than the MidiBoard was.) You MUST edit the velocity curves with SL Editor for the full experience; it is very hard touch-wise out of the box. Once edited, however, the touch is very nice. The keybed is the Fatar top-of-the-line 88-note TP/40WOOD.


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## HCMarkus (Aug 11, 2022)

Paulogic said:


> Maybe a good Piano is the way to go? No extra controls but in most cases a better
> keybed or at least more choice in keybeds. You could try some and see which one
> you like. As mentioned here before a lot... a keyb feel is totally personal.


This is the way I went... I have a Yamaha P-255 with a Roland A-800 on top. The A-800 provides the pitch wheel, knobs, buttons and faders, plus a light action for synths, organs and leads. The P-255 gives me a very nice feeling hammer action. With both connected via USB, pedals and BC control whatever I play on either keyboard.

The OP probably doesn't have room for two keyboards, but a separate bank of knobs, buttons and faders on the desktop might serve well. Missing the pitch/mod wheels could be an issue, though in my case, I programmed a knob for CC1 (Mod) for the times the Roland paddle's sprung Mod Wheel doesn't do the trick.


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## Quasar (Aug 11, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> This is the way I went... I have a Yamaha P-255 with a Roland A-800 on top. The A-800 provides the pitch wheel, knobs, buttons and faders, plus a light action for synths, organs and leads. The P-255 gives me a very nice feeling hammer action. With both connected via USB, pedals and BC control whatever I play on either keyboard.
> 
> The OP probably doesn't have room for two keyboards, but a separate bank of knobs, buttons and faders on the desktop might serve well. Missing the pitch/mod wheels could be an issue, though in my case, I programmed a knob for CC1 (Mod) for the times the Roland paddle's sprung Mod Wheel doesn't do the trick.


Good choice. The P-255 has the same GH hammer action as my CP33, and it's quite good. If I had money to burn, I'd prefer to upgrade to a Yamaha's triple sensor action like GH3X or NW-GH (natural wood), but I can live without it.

I'm definitely a fan of digital pianos rather 88-key "MIDI controllers" for VSTi playing, at least within the realm of what is relative affordable.


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## Phaedraz (Aug 11, 2022)

I have the Hammer 88 pro since a couple of months back and I love it! I have not experienced any of the early problems that I also read about. Using usb to Win11.


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## yves (Aug 17, 2022)

I have a mint condition Yamaha KX-88 and use Audiofront USB 4 input pedal box to handle expression , volume , sustain etc.. I still like the touch out of that old Yamaha board for some reason .. The useable velocity range is between 15 and 120 ish ... easy fix with velocity input curves on the DAW . The KX-88 has 4 sliders that can transmit some CC's plus a breath controller input .


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## gbar (Aug 17, 2022)

HCMarkus said:


> This is the way I went... I have a Yamaha P-255 with a Roland A-800 on top. The A-800 provides the pitch wheel, knobs, buttons and faders, plus a light action for synths, organs and leads. The P-255 gives me a very nice feeling hammer action. With both connected via USB, pedals and BC control whatever I play on either keyboard.
> 
> The OP probably doesn't have room for two keyboards, but a separate bank of knobs, buttons and faders on the desktop might serve well. Missing the pitch/mod wheels could be an issue, though in my case, I programmed a knob for CC1 (Mod) for the times the Roland paddle's sprung Mod Wheel doesn't do the trick.


I have an A-800 (and a 76 key Emu systems E-synth believe it or not lol) Honestly, I hate that Roland tilt-sideways-pitch/mod thingy more than I can say. I feel almost as much antipathy toward joy sticks, but nope, that Roland pitch-mod controller is just bad, IMO. Too difficult, and standard pitch/mod wheels work better. It's like they just wanted to be different lol

I'd use the E-synth as a controller because it has fantastic pitch/mod wheels and a decent keybed, but it's a bit of a pain to program, and I'd be stuck running the old 5--pin MIDI into the interface, and don't wanna. Not now anyway. Maybe when I retire I will use that to control all my old outboard gear, but not now.


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## HCMarkus (Aug 18, 2022)

gbar said:


> Honestly, I hate that Roland tilt-sideways-pitch/mod thingy more than I can say. I feel almost as much antipathy toward joy sticks, but nope, that Roland pitch-mod controller is just bad, IMO. Too difficult, and standard pitch/mod wheels work better. It's like they just wanted to be different lol


IMO, the Roland paddle and the standard pitch/mod wheels each have their strengths. I find the paddle best for electric guitar pitch bends and vibrato (manual vibrato as opposed to LFO vibrato). I like the pitch wheel better for swoops from below up to pitch when playing horns. 

The mod element of the paddle (with its spring return to zero) is OK for mod vibrato but useless for dynamics and synth filter control. As I mentioned previously, I have a knob on my A-800 programmed to transmit CC1 when I need that control, but I also have an Expression Pedal and Breath Controller on hand for dynamics. 

All of this comes down to personal taste and experience, so the lack of love many have for the paddle is understandable.


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## Tom_D (Aug 18, 2022)

> Maybe a good Piano is the way to go? No extra controls but in most cases a better
> keybed or at least more choice in keybeds. You could try some and see which one
> you like. As mentioned here before a lot... a keyb feel is totally personal.


Agree. I'd rather have a nice feeling piano keyboard and use something else for midi controllers rather than finding an all-in-one solution. I like the Roland FP series (currently use an FP-7)


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## PaoloC (Aug 20, 2022)

Paulogic said:


> Maybe a good Piano is the way to go? No extra controls but in most cases a better
> keybed or at least more choice in keybeds.


True. Anyway, the expensive Kawai VPC1 has the best piano touch feeling, but it's too heavy (30Kg) for live. I'm currently using a _Studiologic SL88 Grand_ (24Kg) at home and _a SL88 Studio_ for gigs (14Kg)


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## STMICHAELS (Aug 20, 2022)

PaoloC said:


> True. Anyway, the expensive Kawai VPC1 has the best piano touch feeling, but it's too heavy (30Kg) for live. I'm currently using a _Studiologic SL88 Grand_ (24Kg) at home and _a SL88 Studio_ for gigs (14Kg)


What do you like about the SL88 Grand so far and what do you dislike about it?


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## ZeroZero (Aug 23, 2022)

I use the Arturia Mk II 88, Initially I liked tjhe keybad but now not so much, it's a bit too heavy. http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP100LR.html

This is the same keybed as used by the Komplete Kontrol 88 which a lot of people are using.
The way I solved teh MOD wheel issue is to get a set of three faders and set tehm to CC1.CC11 and CC7.

I also have a Roland RD700NX (old) which has divine action and which I play most

Z


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## Mike Stone (Aug 24, 2022)

IMO, get a Yamaha CP88 stage piano (or something similar) as a midi controller, as most midi controller keyboards simply lack the overall quality necessary for advanced piano playing IMO - although depending on the needs of the buyer.

The CP88 has a very fast and fairly light action, which can be used for pretty much anything (piano, hammond, synths etc.), and it's also even in dynamic curve response across the keyboard, and has a quiet action. It doesn't have escapement like Roland's PHA-50 action or Kawai's most advanced stage pianos (or VPC1), but that's the only negative per se - not really an issue unless you're going to use the keyboard for classical piano practicing. The CP88 is also a compact keyboard, which is useful if space is limited.


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## PaoloC (Aug 24, 2022)

STMICHAELS said:


> What do you like about the SL88 Grand so far and what do you dislike about it?


I really don't dislike the SL88 Grand. Touch feeling is very "pianoish", not perfect, but good.
At the opposite the SL88 Studio is somewhat like an old upright piano and it strains the fingers if used for a long time.


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## leonthomasian (Aug 29, 2022)

Wow, they raised the price for the VPC1 ! It used to go for $1800 or something. I'm pretty sure I didn't pay $2399!


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## Sub3OneDay (Sep 1, 2022)

gbar said:


> I made a mistake when submitting requirements, and my keyboard shelf is 58 inches. so Doepfer LMK2 is out of the question due to 0.27" too wide


I have a similar issue with my desk. Currently I have a very old decrepit maudio keystation pro 88 sitting there on a pull out shelf on my desk. Looking to replace it. The LMK2 is too big but toying with the idea of the option of getting it without the case and fixing it to my desk… have you considered that?

Anyone else out there bought the caseless version?


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## IFM (Sep 1, 2022)

I’ve got an S88mkII for sale if you’re still looking.


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## Fidelity (Sep 1, 2022)

outland said:


> I just picked up a Studiologic SL88 Grand. It replaces my ancient (and now dead) Kurzweil MidiBoard. It feels nothing like its predecessor, but that's fine as I intend to grow into its touch (which is truthfully far more pianistic than the MidiBoard was.) You MUST edit the velocity curves with SL Editor for the full experience; it is very hard touch-wise out of the box. Once edited, however, the touch is very nice. The keybed is the Fatar top-of-the-line 88-note TP/40WOOD.


Are you sure you can't repair it? I still have one hiding in storage and it may well be one of the reasons I haven't defaulted on the unit to get rid of everything. 80s/90s tech is generally pretty straightforward and there must be someone in your area that could fix it. Also just bought a used SL88 studio - thanks for the bit about velocity curves.

Despite having not tried the S88ii (I have an S49ii), I'd also hop on that recommendation bandwagon even if just for the workflow. There are a lot of shortcomings with the Komplete Kontrol software and it's years behind Kore was by the time Kore 2 was a thing, but it's still the best option out there for browsing and playing your plugins as if they were a cohesive workstation synth.


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## sostenuto (Sep 1, 2022)

Either VPC-1 or stay with old KR-577 / Axiom Pro 61 / S-49.


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## leonthomasian (Sep 8, 2022)

Casio just released 2 or 3 new models. The S7000 is on the pricy side but I've been putting the PX-S6000 to the test. I'm tempted to sell my VPC1 now for multiple reasons. For one thing, if you have an idea and want to sit down and record that idea real quick, you don't have to turn on the computer and load a sample and all that. My music room is relatively small and the VPC1 takes up so much space. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome controller for piano works, but I'm getting to the point where I can't have big instruments in my room anymore. What I like about the S6000 is that it's got good piano sounds for instant satisfaction, and it easily fits on top of the desk. (It does come with a stand as well). If space and logistics are a concern, you should totally look into this keyboard.

I recorded one of my compositions with it. You can see how responsive it is!


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## outland (Sep 13, 2022)

Fidelity said:


> Are you sure you can't repair it? I still have one hiding in storage and it may well be one of the reasons I haven't defaulted on the unit to get rid of everything. 80s/90s tech is generally pretty straightforward and there must be someone in your area that could fix it. Also just bought a used SL88 studio - thanks for the bit about velocity curves.
> 
> Despite having not tried the S88ii (I have an S49ii), I'd also hop on that recommendation bandwagon even if just for the workflow. There are a lot of shortcomings with the Komplete Kontrol software and it's years behind Kore was by the time Kore 2 was a thing, but it's still the best option out there for browsing and playing your plugins as if they were a cohesive workstation synth.


Sorry I didn't see this before and I agree with you on so many points.

I had Kore 2 and was really hurt when it was unsupported; I have often wondered if NI discontinued it because it essentially immediately made third party patches obsolete. It was SO easy to get great patches out of it quickly. I still have mine. I was promised by an NI tech that Maschine was going to do everything that Kore 2 did. (OK....)

As far as the Kurzweil is concerned, maybe it's fixable, but I doubt it. Essentially, it took a straight shot of lightning. I lost a modem as well (no loss there; it was probably dying anyway.) But I think the SL88 Grand is really going to help my piano technique over the long haul, so it's probably all good. I was going to make the change anyway. The weather just forced my hand to do it earlier (and in a state of mourning.)

Glad the curve suggestion is helping. That's all the difference in the world.


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## PaulieDC (Sep 13, 2022)

STMICHAELS said:


> What do you like about the SL88 Grand so far and what do you dislike about it?


If this helps, I wrote a long post about the SL88 Grand, mostly because I couldn't find this info before I bought it:






UPDATE: VELOCITY INFO | Some Info on the StudioLogic SL88 Grand Now That I Own It


2/8/2021: Update in Orange below (in context) I've had the SL88 Grand for a little more that three months now, and wanted to share some tips and observations because all of my questions are now answered (obviously, lol). When I was searching 88's it was hard to get input on this elusive...




vi-control.net





FWIW, after owning it for two years, I'm still 100%


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## Fidelity (Sep 13, 2022)

outland said:


> Sorry I didn't see this before and I agree with you on so many points.
> 
> I had Kore 2 and was really hurt when it was unsupported; I have often wondered if NI discontinued it because it essentially immediately made third patches obsolete. It was SO easy to get great patches out of it quickly. I still have mine. I was promised by an NI tech that Maschine was going to do everything that Kore 2 did. (OK....)
> 
> ...


It helps, thank you, but I'm going back to my Trinity ProX for now. Partly because it's going to be difficult to sell, partly because the lighter action really is just a better fit for me.

I too had a Kore 2 and wasn't super pleased with NI either. I'd jump ship almost instantly if someone came up with a true competitor for Komplete Kontrol, especially given the whole Absynth fiasco (which is more of the same as Kore and both B4 and Pro53 before that). I don't hate them, but my loyalty's gone.


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## outland (Oct 6, 2022)

Fidelity said:


> It helps, thank you, but I'm going back to my Trinity ProX for now. Partly because it's going to be difficult to sell, partly because the lighter action really is just a better fit for me.
> 
> I too had a Kore 2 and wasn't super pleased with NI either. I'd jump ship almost instantly if someone came up with a true competitor for Komplete Kontrol, especially given the whole Absynth fiasco (which is more of the same as Kore and both B4 and Pro53 before that). I don't hate them, but my loyalty's gone.


On the B4: I was told by an NI rep that they decided to go with the sample-based Vintage Organs as it easier for NI to deal with and they found that no one could tell the difference between B4 and Vintage Organs anyway. I'm not sure; I used to play on a band with Gerard Guida (who played with Jimi Hendrix for a while just before Jimi died) and he told that as far as he was concerned B4 was a B3. He liked it that much.


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## pixelcrave (Nov 10, 2022)

leonthomasian said:


> Casio just released 2 or 3 new models. The S7000 is on the pricy side but I've been putting the PX-S6000 to the test. I'm tempted to sell my VPC1 now for multiple reasons. For one thing, if you have an idea and want to sit down and record that idea real quick, you don't have to turn on the computer and load a sample and all that. My music room is relatively small and the VPC1 takes up so much space. Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome controller for piano works, but I'm getting to the point where I can't have big instruments in my room anymore. What I like about the S6000 is that it's got good piano sounds for instant satisfaction, and it easily fits on top of the desk. (It does come with a stand as well). If space and logistics are a concern, you should totally look into this keyboard.
> 
> I recorded one of my compositions with it. You can see how responsive it is!



I'm considering this too for the same reason (potentially replacing my PHA-4 based Roland), though I'm still curious to hear your thoughts on them as a controller: how does the velocity / dynamic range registers into the DAW? Do you get a good full range with the default velocity curve? How much in-hardware adjustments you can make, and HAVE to make it work best for your playing style? Thanks in advance.

BTW, I really enjoy seeing you play! Crazy skills!


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## leonthomasian (Nov 13, 2022)

pixelcrave said:


> I'm considering this too for the same reason (potentially replacing my PHA-4 based Roland), though I'm still curious to hear your thoughts on them as a controller: how does the velocity / dynamic range registers into the DAW? Do you get a good full range with the default velocity curve? How much in-hardware adjustments you can make, and HAVE to make it work best for your playing style? Thanks in advance.
> 
> BTW, I really enjoy seeing you play! Crazy skills!


Thanks a lot. 

Yes, it's a very good keyboard/controller for playing piano. I got used to the keybed in no time. It's a winner especially if you're in a tight space. Obviously, it doesn't come with pads, and bunch of knobs or anything like that but I don't need any of that stuff anyway. I have a number of small controllers within reach that come with pads and knobs. (VPC1 doesn't even have a mod wheel). I've been using the S6000 for a while now, and never had any trouble. You're not gonna get any of those velocity irregular velocity spikes with this. The VPC1 is in a whole different league but it's not exactly functional in my space. As much as I love it, I almost considered selling it. 

I did a follow up video on the keybed and tried to answer some general questions:


 


And also recorded this composition to showcase the playability of it:


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## mroche (Jan 8, 2023)

@leonthomasian This might be a bit of a random question, but what is the depth of the control bar above the keys? I'm contemplating giving the PX-S6000 a try, but I have a 4"x4" MIDI controller (Intech Studio EF44) that I currently sit directly on my existing board (Numa X Piano GT). My current environment requires my keyboards to be perpendicular to my desk, unfortunately, which is why this is the case. The Numa is ~12" deep to the Casio's 9", and the controller just barely fits on my keyboard's control pane. I'm assuming I'd need velcro or something to hold it in place on the Privia...

PS: I've seen all your videos on the Casios, your work and musicianship is amazing and inspiring!


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## gohrev (Monday at 3:29 AM)

Another vote for the Studiologic Piano. Grand or Studio version, both great keyboards that feel good.


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## jneebz (Monday at 6:30 AM)

yves said:


> I have a mint condition Yamaha KX-88 and use Audiofront USB 4 input pedal box to handle expression , volume , sustain etc.. I still like the touch out of that old Yamaha board for some reason .. The useable velocity range is between 15 and 120 ish ... easy fix with velocity input curves on the DAW . The KX-88 has 4 sliders that can transmit some CC's plus a breath controller input .


I’ve never felt a more comfortable keybed as the KX-88. Miss mine a lot!


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## leonthomasian (Tuesday at 11:59 AM)

mroche said:


> @leonthomasian This might be a bit of a random question, but what is the depth of the control bar above the keys? I'm contemplating giving the PX-S6000 a try, but I have a 4"x4" MIDI controller (Intech Studio EF44) that I currently sit directly on my existing board (Numa X Piano GT). My current environment requires my keyboards to be perpendicular to my desk, unfortunately, which is why this is the case. The Numa is ~12" deep to the Casio's 9", and the controller just barely fits on my keyboard's control pane. I'm assuming I'd need velcro or something to hold it in place on the Privia...
> 
> PS: I've seen all your videos on the Casios, your work and musicianship is amazing and inspiring!


Thank you very much!

I'm also working within a tight space. I had to push the VPC1 to the side, because with my current set up it wasn't practical to use it as my main DAW controller. 

I attached a photo. The back panel that has the rear-facing speakers drops down about 4 inches.


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## mroche (Tuesday at 9:27 PM)

leonthomasian said:


> I attached a photo. The back panel that has the rear-facing speakers drops down about 4 inches.


Thanks so much! Looks like velcro or sticky tape would be in my future if I get the board... time to give Sweetwater a call.

And yeah, the Numa isn't a bit board by any means (a third of the reason I chose it), but the Privia is just a bit more compact making it a more agile choice for different configurations. It is a touch wider, but that doesn't really affect much for me.


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