# Instant copyright?



## toomanynotes (Aug 26, 2013)

Hi,

I was pondering, if i wrote a snippet of orchestral music or a guitar riff, how does one copyright that idea? Is it of immediate effect? Or does one have to register it?
Like the demo i did in my link, can someone just do what they want with it and pass it off as their own?

I ask because their has been some talk of foul play against composers on this forum on some thread regarding library music? 

Or what stops a lazy composer compiling some of the composers work as a music showreel just to get a gig?

Thanks.

p.s i'm a member of the PRS in the UK I doubt that helps?


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## TimJohnson (Aug 26, 2013)

"Copyright is an *automatic* right and arises whenever an individual or company creates a work. To qualify, a work should be regarded as original, and exhibit a degree of labour, skill or judgement."

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law


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## cadalac (Aug 26, 2013)

Here in Canada, you can copyright your music with the government. You send them a copy of the score or tabs, and then they can send you a dated document that gives you proof of ownership.This document will be valid in court if you take someone there, or if someone takes you there over a dispute of ownership.

Now the cost is 50$. The advantage is it's guaranteed to be valid in court (the gov is your witness essentially). If there's an easier / cheaper way to do it, you might be better off asking on a law or copyright forum. I asked a similar question here a while back with not too much for answers.


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## nikolas (Aug 26, 2013)

The problem is not how the copyright applies. It applies automatically, from the moment you put down your art work in a tangible form (a guitar tab, a music score, a midi file, a recording... something that can be read/listened to). 

The problems start if someone claims that it's their work. The *ONLY* way to prove that something was composed by me and not you is to prove that I've got it registered _somewhere_ earlier than you! 

This _registration_ is the part that interests you. Keep in mind that each country have their own devices, services and organizations. For example in the US, if not mistaken, the ONLY valid way is the copyright.gov offices. Reason is that any copyright claim is a federal claim (that goes in a federal court) which ONLY accepts such registration.

In Greece things are different and you can use an attorney, along with a few witnesses to file for registration. In the UK things are yet again different.

Point is: You need to find tangible prove that you've shown to the people (official people, not youtube) that this is YOUR work from THAT date in time.

At least that's my understanding. I'm not an attorney, so take the above with a grain of salt.


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## toomanynotes (Aug 26, 2013)

i see, thanks for your help! i better ask elsewhere...but you have given me an idea..

Thanks again!


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## toomanynotes (Aug 26, 2013)

this is taken fro PRS website FAQ

*How do you protect your music as a songwriter?*

Currently, no official form of registration is available. In the UK, all original music is protected by copyright from the time it is recorded or written down in some format. It is important to be able to prove that you own the copyright of a particular recording. To do this we suggest the following:

Post a copy of the recording to yourself by special delivery. Clearly mark the envelope so you know what music it holds, but keep it sealed.

and/or

Store a copy with your solicitor or bank manager. Remember to keep a receipt and be aware that this method is likely to cost you some money.


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## nikolas (Aug 26, 2013)

toomanynotes @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> Post a copy of the recording to yourself by special delivery. Clearly mark the envelope so you know what music it holds, but keep it sealed.


Sheesh... 

I'll tell you what.

About a decade ago, I went to my local post office, with an envelope. It contained a CD. It was closed in the normal manner, and I sent it signed for with special delivery to myself. I never opened the envelope.

Now, recently I found out about this AWESOME piece. So, I carefully opened the envelope and got the CD out. I burned this AWESOME piece in it and then I resealed the envelope. Then I went into the court and now I'm filthy rich!

Good thing I've got another few unopened envelopes around, for when another AWESOME composition comes along! 

PS. If you want replace the CD (because of the digital contents, that could be dated) to empty A4 pages...




















I SERIOUSLY doubt that the current envelopes, as made today, were made to make absolutely certain nobody would open and reseal them...


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## Mike Greene (Aug 26, 2013)

I wonder if posting to YouTube would be a good way of establishing when something was written. You could set up your own channel with no followers or publicity. It would strictly be a depository for songs with "Date Posted" for each.

My understanding is that you can't swap audio on YouTube videos, so whatever date the vide is posted, that's really the date the piece existed in that form. Or am I wrong?


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## Daniel James (Aug 26, 2013)

Mike I do this with some of my tracks. I post the track over a screenshot with the details of the song. Ie date written, song title, players etc....Upload it to Youtube and set it to private.

Youtube keeps track of the date it was uploaded so you have a way to prove a date. May not be concrete but has definitely helped in the past 

-DJ


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## MichaelL (Aug 26, 2013)

In the US proving dates is relatively meaningless if you have not registered the work with the US Copyright Office. You cannot get into court to sue for infringement if you have not registered the work.

The "post office" copyright, where you mail yourself a copy of the work, and never open the envelope does not work. Nothing is the equivalent of, or substitution for,
registration.

Of course, I'm speaking of the US. The UK may be different.

_Michael


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## Daniel James (Aug 26, 2013)

MichaelL @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> In the US proving dates is relatively meaningless if you have not registered the work with the US Copyright Office. You cannot get into court to sue for infringement if you have not registered the work.
> 
> The "post office" copyright, where you mail yourself a copy of the work, and never open the envelope does not work. Nothing is the equivalent of, or substitution for,
> registration.
> ...



http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyr ... yright_law 

-DJ


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## nikolas (Aug 26, 2013)

Michael, Daniel, already covered that part about the "poor man's copyright".

youtube also doesn't work, cause it's a known fact that the info in youtube can be tempered with... (at least this is what I know).


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## Mike Greene (Aug 26, 2013)

MichaelL @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> In the US proving dates is relatively meaningless if you have not registered the work with the US Copyright Office. You cannot get into court to sue for infringement if you have not registered the work.
> 
> The "post office" copyright, where you mail yourself a copy of the work, and never open the envelope does not work. Nothing is the equivalent of, or substitution for,
> registration.


Yes, this is true, but I'm mostly concerned with protecting myself from being sued, rather than in dotting my i's and crossing my t's in potentially preparing myself to sue some hypothetical person later. (Having been through this once before, something would have to be really, really, really bad for me to want to go through that process again. :mrgreen: ) So maybe this YouTube thing could be the ticket, although we'd have to trust that YouTube stays in business and doesn't later decide to delete old videos.

With that said, not to nitpick, but you can still register a copyright _after_ spotting an infringement and then still sue. You just surrender the ability to collect _compulsory_ (punitive) damages. Not that I want to lose that additional $150k hammer of justice, mind you, but I write literally hundreds of songs/cues per year (hey, I don't claim they're *good* songs!), so registering all these songs with the Copyright Office can get really expensive, even if I register them in collections.

In the case where I did pursue someone who ripped me off, I had indeed registered the song ahead of time, but even with the potential extra payout of compulsory damages, plus potentially getting my legal fees paid for (a possibility somewhat unique to copyright law,) after a couple months of very expensive back and forth, I was advised to drop it. Not because I'd lose, but because we learned the defendant didn't have deep enough pockets to make it worthwhile. IP lawyers are expensive as heck, so they told me that unless I was prepared to spend 100k, then I'd be better off just dropping it. (They weren't interested in a contingency case unless it involved at least $500k.)

This was for a commercial, so I could also have collected from the ad agency and from their client, of course, but I didn't want to do that because they were basically innocent and I would have felt bad. (They were duped by the guy who stole my song. Literally "stole," by the way, as in he even used my recording.)


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## rgames (Aug 26, 2013)

Mike Greene @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> Yes, this is true, but I'm mostly concerned with protecting myself from being sued, rather than in dotting my i's and crossing my t's in potentially preparing myself to sue some hypothetical person later. (Having been through this once before, something would have to be really, really, really bad for me to want to go through that process again. :mrgreen: ) So maybe this YouTube thing could be the ticket, although we'd have to trust that YouTube stays in business and doesn't later decide to delete old videos.


I agree - it seems that there are two issues that have to be addressed: who created the work and when.

If you file everything with your PRO and have, e.g., a bunch of library submissions then it sure seems that would be compelling evidence that you own the IP.

It takes time to get ripped off so there should be an obvious difference between the time the originator created the IP and the time it was stolen. Sure seems like that would be sufficient legal grounds to bring a case to court. Granted, you might have to file the copyright claim to bring it to court, but it doesn't seem logical that doing so is the only legal way to prove ownership.

rgames


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## nikolas (Aug 26, 2013)

rgames @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> It takes time to get ripped off so there should be an obvious difference between the time the originator created the IP and the time it was stolen. Sure seems like that would be sufficient legal grounds to bring a case to court. Granted, you might have to file the copyright claim to bring it to court, but it doesn't seem logical that doing so is the only legal way to prove ownership.


Michael covered this issue in another thread...

The "problem" is that all copyright infringement claims end up in a federal court and apparently it only accepts registered works with the copyright office of the US.

It's rather unclear on what'd happen if a work from another country was ripped off...


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## rgames (Aug 26, 2013)

nikolas @ Mon Aug 26 said:


> rgames @ Mon Aug 26 said:
> 
> 
> > It takes time to get ripped off so there should be an obvious difference between the time the originator created the IP and the time it was stolen. Sure seems like that would be sufficient legal grounds to bring a case to court. Granted, you might have to file the copyright claim to bring it to court, but it doesn't seem logical that doing so is the only legal way to prove ownership.
> ...


Yeah, as I said, you might have to register to bring the case to court. But I don't see why you need registration to prove it's your IP. You can use it for that purpose but it seems there are other means that serve the same purpose.

rgames


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## MichaelL (Aug 27, 2013)

> IP lawyers are expensive as heck, so they told me that unless I was prepared to spend 100k, then I'd be better off just dropping it. (They weren't interested in a contingency case unless it involved at least $500k.)




You're correct Mike. Copyright litigation is extremely expensive. Everyone needs deep pockets unless there's a huge amount of damages. And, yes, you can file the registration when you suspect infringement. In that instance you would want to prove the date of creation / ownership.




> Granted, you might have to file the copyright claim to bring it to court, but it doesn't seem logical that doing so is the only legal way to prove ownership.



Richard, registering a copyright isn't the only legal way to prove ownership, but it is the only way to get into federal court. Proving ownership without being able to get into court is realatively worthless. Federal courts have jurisdiction over copyright cases. There is no other avenue of redress. (in the US)


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## rgames (Aug 27, 2013)

MichaelL @ Tue Aug 27 said:


> > Granted, you might have to file the copyright claim to bring it to court, but it doesn't seem logical that doing so is the only legal way to prove ownership.
> 
> 
> 
> Richard, registering a copyright isn't the only legal way to prove ownership, but it is the only way to get into federal court. Proving ownership without being able to get into court is realatively worthless. Federal courts have jurisdiction over copyright cases. There is no other avenue of redress. (in the US)


Good. So I was correct 

rgames


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