# FP10, VPC1 or ES110... But no mod wheels! Need advice



## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 20, 2022)

Hello there!

I am happy to join the wonderful community.

I am going to buy tomorrow a controller for my classical music DAW workstation.

I am a classical pianist and a realistic and playable touch is HIGHLY important.

After a LOT of research I saw that that models which are within my budget and are highly recommended are the FP10 (and FP30), Kawai VPC1 and ES110.

I tried Fatar keyboards. 
Lets leave this experience behind.


First of all: am I correct in my choice, or is there another highly regarded model among classical pianists?

And secondly.. I am keen on experimenting with modulation and pitch change, thus mod wheels are quite important.

But.. none of them have any! And I've had a very hard time trying to find standalone modwheel controllers.




Again... playabity, especially in a high range of velocity and at high speeds is the most crucial factor.
Another VERY important factor: Noisy keys.
I am recording audio at the same time, doing some operatic improvisations and compositions, and noisy keys are a big letdown. 


Thank you so much!


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## Marcus Millfield (Sep 20, 2022)

Kawai has the MP11SE stage piano, which is basically the same as a VPC-1, but with build-in sounds and a modwheel and pitchbend.

I played both the VPC-1 and MP11SE and ultimately found the VPC-1 playing a bit heavier and went for the MP11SE. Have no regrets about that decision. Both are the best piano controllers one can have for the price.


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## bcslaam (Sep 20, 2022)

Roland RD88 has MW and really good action.


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## Michael Antrum (Sep 20, 2022)

You should consider adding the Roland RD2000 to you list, as it also has a wooden keybed and pitch/mod wheels...might be out of budget though.....

I'd have the Kawai MP11se though....


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## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 21, 2022)

Thank you all for your help.
I am inclining towards the cheaper options right now, as I will only use it as a midi controller, and the price gap isn't quite justified just for mod wheels.
Is there any standalone modwheel controller I could use..? 
And any other suggestions of nice keyboards within the same price range as the FP30 which have modhweels would be great!
I will most probably go today to audition the FP10/30 and the Kawai ES110.

Wish me luck


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## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 21, 2022)

Just ordered the FP10. I understood that if I use a kind of midi interface I could connect three pedals, am I right? Since the FP10 has only input for one pedal.

I went to the store and compare the different companies.. Damn, there is no comparison. Only Kawai was somewhat fine, but didn't feel like a real piano, too light. Roland... is ANOTHER league.
I even tried the FP90X... WOW. Maybe the action was a little bit too heavy for me, a person who got used to a lighter touch and played a lot on synths and such... but... it was AMAZING. I am still in awe.

I found a bit harder for me to play on very fast passages as my fingers are used to a lighter touch. But... on slower ones, and the quality in general... It is amazing that this thing isn't actually a real piano.


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## PaulieDC (Sep 21, 2022)

Hmmmmm... classical player. If you have the money and the room, my vote is VPC-1. Mechanical playability is the flagship, last stop before the Yamaha N1X.

Personally I don't like cheesy mod wheels anyway, after trying many units, this is THE one for CC work. First unit I'd called Desert Island list. 

Anyway, just my take. Happy hunting!


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## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 21, 2022)

Thanks. I am looking for a conventional modwheel, especially for pitchbend, as I think experimenting with glissandos and microtonality is... super important for a composer (I forgot to mention, I use it for composition).

Do you know of any standalone pitch wheels..?


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## Daren Audio (Sep 21, 2022)

IFeelTooMuch said:


> Just ordered the FP10. I understood that if I use a kind of midi interface I could connect three pedals, am I right? Since the FP10 has only input for one pedal.


As a piano player, FP10 doesn't have continuous pedaling but the FP30 does. Not sure if this feature is a deal breaker for you but just an FYI.

https://vi-control.net/community/th...er-sustain-pedal-necessary.98671/post-4643988


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## proggermusic (Sep 21, 2022)

I would recommend getting one of the small full-featured MIDI controllers (like an M-Audio Oxygen 25, or whatever the equivalent is nowadays, or a similar offering from Akai, Novation, etc) and position it near enough to your main piano-like MIDI controller that you can access it easily while recording and editing. They can be had for very little money and it would be worth it to have one for the pitch and mod alone. You can run it straight into your computer via USB.

I use a two-tiered approach, with my Yamaha digital piano on the bottom (no pitch or mod wheel, but good action that I enjoy practicing and recording with) and a 61-key synth-style MIDI controller on top with lighter action and pitch/mod capabilities. The only problem with that is that I generally have to remove the top board if I'm practicing with sheet music. Otherwise, it's been a reliable system for many years!


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## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 21, 2022)

Thanks.
By the way, if I get this midi expression, I guess I would be able to use continuos pedaling if used as a midi controller, am I right? And of course, connect the other two pedals if I decide to get them once. https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php


By the way, I have the alesis-asp2 sustain pedal, I suspect that the pedal itself might not be of the "continuos" type. 
Now I feel like I may need to change the whole setup. I guess the difference is not drastic when using the pedals for sustain, right? 

Are there any good standalone continuos pedals? And, as asked before, would I be able to connect them through Audiofront's MIDI expression while using the FP10 as a midi controller, and have multiple continuos pedals?

Thanks


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## Daren Audio (Sep 21, 2022)

IFeelTooMuch said:


> Thanks.
> By the way, if I get this midi expression, I guess I would be able to use continuos pedaling if used as a midi controller, am I right? And of course, connect the other two pedals if I decide to get them once. https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php


Yes, MIDI Expression's software is very robust. 
I have a six pedal setup (3 for Piano Playing / 3 for Orchestral work +1) using MIDI Expression.



IFeelTooMuch said:


> By the way, I have the alesis-asp2 sustain pedal, I suspect that the pedal itself might not be of the "continuos" type.
> Now I feel like I may need to change the whole setup. I guess the difference is not drastic when using the pedals for sustain, right?


I'd go with what Rob and other customers have tested out that's compatible and works but do double check with the manufacturers to confirm the pedal(s) do have "continuous pedaling" function.



IFeelTooMuch said:


> Are there any good standalone continuos pedals? And, as asked before, would I be able to connect them through Audiofront's MIDI expression while using the FP10 as a midi controller, and have multiple continuos pedals?
> 
> Thanks


I went with the Roland DP-10 pedal for "continuous sustain" and that works great.


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## cedricm (Sep 22, 2022)

IFeelTooMuch said:


> Hello there!
> 
> I am happy to join the wonderful community.
> 
> ...


I think VPC1 is about the best one can expect as a pianist. It's so expensive though that I wouldn't purchase it before giving it a try.

I have the ES110, which is great for the entry price but probably not good enough for a pianist: the action is very light and it does make noise when keys are coming back up. Although to be fair, it probably does make less noise than many keyboards. 

Did you try the StudioLogic SL-88 Grand Studio ? If so make sure to ask to configure the action with the SL Editor.

To replace the modwheel, you could get a small midi controller such as korg microcontrol or StudioLogic mixface, which will conveniently sit on many keyboards, and use a fader instead.


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## jonnybutter (Sep 22, 2022)

Agree w others above about the VPC1. It’s a big price jump after that for something only somewhat better (my opinion only). I like to have a semi weighted keyboard on top of the Kawai anyway, so mod wheel/pitch is right there. You can also get a fader-based midi controller with 100mm faders for finer control, but obviously won’t work for pitch bend. I use that much more than the mod wheel.

By the way: wish there was a good stand alone mod wheel/pitch hardware unit you could buy. I would buy two!


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## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 22, 2022)

Really curious about that VPC1. I tested the KDP75 which was supposed to have the same action as the ES110 and was not that impressed... the action was way too light and it didn't really feel like a piano. 

I wonder if the VPC1 is a completely other feel? Because Roland seemed to be a much better option (at least for me) overall


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## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 22, 2022)

Ok, just found a used Novation Launchkey 49 which has 3 broken keys, I think I might get this one for my modwheel!


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## Justin L. Franks (Sep 22, 2022)

Why didn't you just go for the A-88MKII? Same action as the FP-10, with a mod wheel and knobs.


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## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 22, 2022)

Just double the price..


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## Justin L. Franks (Sep 22, 2022)

A separate fader controller isn't horribly expensive. The Nakedboards MC-8 is pretty highly regarded, and there are some 3 & 4 fader controllers with full-length 100mm faders too. Either will give you more control than a mod wheel, and also let you adjust more than one control at a time (dynamics, expression, and vibrato is a common setup).


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## IFeelTooMuch (Sep 22, 2022)

I already own a novation zero sl mkii, so I've got a few faders and knobs..
I am just looking for the pitchbend that snaps back to place and a good modwheel... and if it adds faders to my existing setup it wouldn't hurt


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## jonnybutter (Sep 22, 2022)

IFeelTooMuch said:


> Really curious about that VPC1. I tested the KDP75 which was supposed to have the same action as the ES110 and was not that impressed... the action was way too light and it didn't really feel like a piano.
> 
> I wonder if the VPC1 is a completely other feel? Because Roland seemed to be a much better option (at least for me) overall


The ‘home digital piano’ stuff from Kawai is ok for what it is, but nothing like the VPC1, which is a real professional controller. Some people prefer the high end Roland controllers/digi pianos, and I can see why - they are excellent. But they are more expensive and a little heavier touch. I also had a Kawai (acoustic) grand for years, so it was easy to get used to the VPC1. I think I paid about 1400€ for it. Good luck.


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## Markrs (Sep 22, 2022)

IFeelTooMuch said:


> novation zero sl mkii


I have this too and I feel it is really good, I love that the fader and knob levels are displayed on touch, plotted tons of programmable buttons. Given you can buy them 2nd hand cheap and they are fairly robust, they are a good buy. The only really negative is the space they take up.


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## CeDur (Oct 2, 2022)

jonnybutter said:


> The ‘home digital piano’ stuff from Kawai is ok for what it is, but nothing like the VPC1, which is a real professional controller. Some people prefer the high end Roland controllers/digi pianos, and I can see why - they are excellent. But they are more expensive and a little heavier touch.


Actually MP11SE is lighter touch than VPC1 and objectively provides more authentic piano action, but.. I would lean towards VPC1 because of aesthetic. I felt much more immersion playing ES8 because of it's piano-like vertical fallboard with Kawai logo and black shiny casing than any other DP. VPC1 looks even nicer.


IFeelTooMuch said:


> Another VERY important factor: Noisy keys.
> I am recording audio at the same time, doing some operatic improvisations and compositions, and noisy keys are a big letdown.


I currently own FP10 and while it's a great action, after short period of time it becomes very noisy. I've just re-greased my action so it's silent again, but be aware of the 'issue'. It's the same with all Rolands with PHA4 Standard. Also, if you are serious pianist consider FP30X instead - it supports proper continuous pedalling. You can buy 3-pedal unit and have soft and sostenuto pedals as well (not the case with FP10).


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## jonnybutter (Oct 2, 2022)

CeDur said:


> Actually MP11SE is lighter touch than VPC1 and objectively provides more authentic piano action, but.. I would lean towards VPC1 because of aesthetic. I felt much more immersion playing ES8 because of it's piano-like vertical fallboard with Kawai logo and black shiny casing than any other DP. VPC1 looks even nicer.


Actually, I was referring to the ES110, which is a home keyboard, and not the MP11Se. I think everyone agrees - or mostly - that the latter is superior, but at over double the price, may not be worth that much more.


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## Matt Riley (Oct 2, 2022)

I bought a used MP11 instead of the VPC1. I tried both and the MP11 had a much better feel in my opinion as a pianist. I use a separate controller on top of the keyboard for all of my midi CCs. I highly recommend going this route if you are a pianist.


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## Raymonde (Oct 25, 2022)

IFeelTooMuch said:


> Hello there!
> 
> I am happy to join the wonderful community.
> 
> ...


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## Raymonde (Oct 25, 2022)

> I am keen on experimenting with modulation and pitch change, thus mod wheels are quite important.
> 
> But.. none of them have any! And I've had a very hard time trying to find standalone modwheel controllers.


The Arturia BeatStep Pro is the ultimate in controller pads for Midi. Pitch bend is assigned to a dials which bend the pitch on 8 separate channels. Lots of other features too. Bit pricy.

I'm moving to the idea of having two keyboards for my studio-one for artistic exploration of piano, sampled orchestral and synth sounds, the other devoted to functioning as a midi control station to dovetail with my DAW. Along those lines-complete with pitch mod wheel- check out the Novation FL Keys 

Or for that matter, any smaller, keyboard style midi controller would prove a useful partner to the Kawai VPC. Several of them are loaded with connectivity possibilities for working in close conjunction with a DAW.


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