# Plagiarism Anxiety



## krisbja (Jul 11, 2018)

Hi

I have scored several feature films and several tv shows but I always get this anxiety after I deliver a score that I'm unconsciously and unknowingly stealing an existing melody or score. When I'm at the premiere I'm always expecting someone to shout "wait a minute - I have heard that before. It's just like the score in the movie..." or someone will post on twitter, Facebook etc. Maybe you could call this Plagiarism anxiety. Maybe it's just low self confidence or maybe it's an anxiety problem. 

Anyways - maybe I'm the only one. I just wanted to share this feeling with you and see if anybody is dealing with the same thing and how you deal with it. 

All the best!


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## TheSigillite (Jul 13, 2018)

I'm only a hobbyist and enthusiast, can't even begin to imagine how you do it as a professional, but I get the same anxiety every time I complete a piece and and think to myself... did I ever hear this before and just recreated it subconsciously? How I deal with it is by reminding myself that we are all influenced by every sound we have ever come across. Sometimes those influences can be heard stronger in one line, orchestration, or overall feel, but ultimately it's what I create with those experiences. Sometimes I'll get that remark, "oh, this sounds like..." or "it feels like..." but i'm ok with it, as long as the listener gets something out of it. Best of luck and congratulations on your accomplishments!


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## mikeh-375 (Jul 13, 2018)

Hi kribja,
I relied on my musical wits to steer clear of belligerent temps. The more you know technically, the more you can circumvent plagiarism whilst getting to the gist of what appeals about a temp, or in the case of working within a genre, how to keep a semblance of originality whilst sticking to the general convention. This is one of the reasons I keep banging on about technique because it can help you find your originality if it is there....


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## C.R. Rivera (Jul 13, 2018)

The OP's question reminded me that:

"the consensus is that [both] Leibniz and Newton independently invented and described the calculus in Europe in the 17th century." 

However, Seki Takakazu was "a contemporary of German polymath mathematician and philosopher Gottfried Leibniz and British mathematician Isaac Newton... Seki's work was independent of those two men."

So as to the question, sometimes something sounds familiar---two musicians might actually come up with the same sequence....time for a court fight, yes


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## Bill the Lesser (Jul 15, 2018)

People are constantly ripping me off for I, V, vi, IV! And when my patent on sharp 4ths comes through, you guys are all in trouble.

Have there been large scale film score plagiarisms that were *truly* inadvertent? I mean, every film composer or serious wannabee can pretty much identify every existing melodic film motif by heart, no? OK, there are more measures-long misdemeanor borrowings than anyone can count, no need to stress about those piddly things. But large scale rips take quite a bit of premeditation and only criminal intent can drive that. So unless you're evil, don't worry.

And just yell "down in front!" at that guy at the premiere! The audience will be on your side.


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## Morning Coffee (Jul 15, 2018)

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard 12 bar blues chord progressions in contemporary music, yet it is still used often. I guess it perhaps comes down to melody and whether people are determined to sue to make money or for their reputation.

I always think of the case of the band Men at Work being successfully sued for their song, 'Down Under', by a music publisher because the flute solo in 'Down under' sounded similar to an old nursery rhyme, 'Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree'. It's very sad how the flute player from the band passed away a few years ago with the accusation of plagiarism over his head, I'm sure it would've affected him.


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## enyawg (Jul 15, 2018)

At my last premier I told the guy yelling up the front that I use Hans Zimmer as my ghost writer and they all sat down!


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## Peter Williams (Jul 17, 2018)

For me. the bottom line is whether or not a composer is being creative. I have special circles of hell (in my mind) for music critics, lawyers and judges who can't comprehend that.


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## YaniDee (Jan 14, 2019)

Paul McCartney was sure he ripped off "Yesterday" from someone else, so you're not alone! It's a valid concern, there are accusations that John Williams ripped off Holst and Korngold in Star Wars, etc..Look at country songs, old rock and roll songs..they're all pretty well the same! As long as there's something unique, it's all good.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 14, 2019)

krisbja said:


> Hi
> 
> I have scored several feature films and several tv shows but I always get this anxiety after I deliver a score that I'm unconsciously and unknowingly stealing an existing melody or score. When I'm at the premiere I'm always expecting someone to shout "wait a minute - I have heard that before. It's just like the score in the movie..." or someone will post on twitter, Facebook etc. Maybe you could call this Plagiarism anxiety. Maybe it's just low self confidence or maybe it's an anxiety problem.
> 
> ...



Thx for sharing. And no I dont share the same.


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## JMJ33101 (Jan 15, 2019)

I used to have that before but I started thinking I’m just being inspired by other people’s music. Johannes Brahms was expected by his critics to mimic Beethoven, especially in his 1st Symphony. John Williams used Howard Hanson’s Symphony No.2 as a structure or inspiration for Adventures on Earth. I think it’s a pretty normal thing for Composers, but I think developing your own style and own set of motifs and themes will help take away this anxiety


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## Greg (Jan 15, 2019)

Well you could get small business insurance to help protect yourself from a lawsuit, that might help you sleep a little bit easier.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2019)

YaniDee said:


> Paul McCartney was sure he ripped off "Yesterday" from someone else, so you're not alone! It's a valid concern, there are accusations that John Williams ripped off Holst and Korngold in Star Wars, etc..Look at country songs, old rock and roll songs..they're all pretty well the same! As long as there's something unique, it's all good.



He actually borrowed mostly from Wagner's Ring (particularly *Die Walküre* in Empire), but it's obvious he listened to scores like Korngold's Robin Hood and Goldsmith's Blue Max as well. 

By the way, if you ever want to hear one of the most uplifting, thrilling action scores ever, don't miss out on the abovementioned Goldsmith...both the La La Land reissue and the Tadlow rerecording are sensational!


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 15, 2019)

I just write and worry about everything else later. If it turns out I copied some, I just rewrite those parts and make them as personally expressive as possible.

That said, that old credo about taking something and doing something your way with it is a good one imo. Just like my old Hendrix analogy, plenty of people borrow from each other (probably most if not all)...it's where you take it from there, how you indelibly stamp your own personality into the clay...


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## givemenoughrope (Jan 15, 2019)

What if you are plagarizing one of your alternate personalities? That could be the plot of an Argento film.

I think that this is common especially with melody. If you are worried about it then run it by some friends. And sometimes it just happens. That last Squarepusher album has almost a direct lift of a famous guitar part from The Cure. It seems incredible that he wouldn’t have known but I guess his head is too deep into Reaktor. I thought Jack White was a genius for “sampling” that riff of Bruckner’s but then realized he probably didn’t.


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## Loïc D (Jan 15, 2019)

I feel anxious if I don’t steal anyone’s ideas.
Uncharted territories are so stressful...


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## Hutzpah (Jan 16, 2019)

I don't have this problem but know someone that does. She has asked my advice on a melody line many times and I have always said the same thing.
No, it does not sound like so and so.
It has become a real hindrance to her productivity.


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## LamaRose (Jan 16, 2019)

Anything "new" has simply been lost to history.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 17, 2019)

Life’s too short. Also, all your musical heroes borrowed/lifted, consciously or not. Finally, all your base are belong to us.


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## bosone (Jan 17, 2019)

as am hobbyst, once i ended up with this sketch:



my wife pointed me that the same melody is heard in this song, from a famous italian singer, that i (thought) never heard!



at the end, it's just a musical scale. is this plagiarism?


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## Polkasound (Jan 17, 2019)

bosone said:


> is this plagiarism?



Personally, if it were my track, I would change a couple piano notes so that the melody wasn't so close to Giorgia's song. Of course, I'd still run the risk of the changed melody inadvertently plagiarizing someone else's song, but I know I'd at least be safe with Giorgia's. And I'd take my wife out to dinner to thank her for being so perceptive.


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## YaniDee (Jan 17, 2019)

bosone said:


> at the end, it's just a musical scale. is this plagiarism?


It is just a scale..I'm sure there are countless more examples of this passage..


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 17, 2019)

If you listen to tons of music from the past 300 years, you'll find that there's not much new under the melodic front when it comes to diatonic composition. And yet, a good melody still moves us.


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## Polkasound (Jan 17, 2019)

YaniDee said:


> It is just a scale..I'm sure there are countless more examples of this passage..



You're probably right, there likely are more examples out there. But in this case, it's the same instrument, same notes, same octave, and same starting chord. That combination was enough to trigger an "I've heard this before," response from his wife, who was even able to place the song. It's that kind of triggering which is the fear of musicians with plagiarism anxiety.

Probably every song ever created, in some way, sounds like parts another song that somebody else created at some point in history. Because there are hundreds of millions of songs in existence, the odds of the same person hearing two songs that sound identical enough to trigger an immediate "I've heard that before" reaction are statistically low.

And yet, it did happen with bosone's wife.

It's possible that if bosone were to change a couple notes, or the instrument, or the octave, or or the root chord, it may not have triggered anything in his wife's mind. It would depend on her level of perception and memory recall.

So my theory is that it's probably impossible to not unwittingly plagiarize someone else's music to some degree, but when you are given the luxury if knowing how close you are to plagiarizing a particular work, you can use that knowledge to change your composition as needed to reduce your anxiety.


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## YaniDee (Jan 17, 2019)

Polkasound said:


> So my theory is that it's probably impossible to not unwittingly plagiarize someone else's music to some degree, but when you are given the luxury if knowing how close you are to plagiarizing a particular work, you can use that knowledge to change your composition as needed to reduce your anxiety.


I agree with your statements, knowingly copying someone else's melodies is wrong, bad for a composer's reputation, and in these days of litigation, can get expensive. Unknowingly doing it, probably can't be helped. Google "dictionary of musical themes" or "dictionary of operatic themes" and you wil find books listing 10,000 + themes..and this does not include folk music, fiddle tunes, polkas, marches, ethnic music, etc. Chances are there will be melodies quite similar if not identical to something we've composed.
Here is a site for example (takes a while to load..) See anything you recognize? 

http://bestclassicaltunes.com/ThematicBycomposer.aspx?composer=all


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