# Missing Airplane?



## NYC Composer (Mar 14, 2014)

All conspiracy theories are welcome- go for it!


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## Cruciform (Mar 15, 2014)

Pirates worked in conjunction with one or more crew members. The plane landed safely at some remote rough strip. The passengers will be sold into slavery.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 15, 2014)

I am voting for *There was some kind of miniature hydrogen bomb controlled by an iPhone app and it created a miniature black hole.*

I mean, if you think that's not it, well, then, you are just plain stupid.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 15, 2014)

> All conspriacy theories are welcome- go for it!



Pretty repulsive suggestion if you ask me.

I just hope that there is not a single member here on VI that had relatives on board of that plane, and then stumbles across this thread.

....outa here....


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## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> > All conspriacy theories are welcome- go for it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't, actually (ask you, that is) G.R. Still, your opinion is welcome, and I hear ya...but here in the off-topics sub-forum, many things are discussed where someone's family member is involved. It's pretty easy to take offense if you look at things a certain way.

My "repulsive suggestion" aside, I don't really find the situation funny at all. I find the whole incident very disconcerting. However, I'm quite serious when I say that this is one of those rare cases where pretty much anybody's wildest conspiracy theory could actually be right on the mark. It's just that crazy.


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## RiffWraith (Mar 15, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> > All conspriacy theories are welcome- go for it!
> 
> 
> 
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If we can talk about Illegal sex in Uganda and what's going on in Syria, we can surely talk about a missing airplane.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 15, 2014)

Point taken.

Perhaps you're right, don't know, was just my spontaneous reaction when I read it.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2014)

G.R. Baumann @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> Point taken.
> 
> Perhaps you're right, don't know, was just my spontaneous reaction when I read it.



Understood.

If anyone's gonna have sensitivities about stolen planes, we in NYC are probably towards the top of the list. Just sayin'.


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Sat Mar 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Point taken.
> ...



Tell me about it, I had a friend on 93, which explains perhaps my edginess on the subject.

Sorry Larry, was a bit too quick in my initial reaction.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 15, 2014)

At this point, there are ONLY conspiracy theories, pretty much. It's the strangest (and one has to confess) most intriguing news story I can remember for years.

Kazakhstan. If a week ago someone had suggested looking in Kazakhstan for a commercial 777 that went missing off the coast of Malaysia you'd have assumed they were insane. I wake up this morning to discover its now an official line of enquiry (at the end of one of two possible corridors of travel).

The grim and inevitable scenario that always plays out after planes go missing with no warning hasn't happened. It remains possible - albeit unlikely - that the plane actually landed somewhere and the passengers are alive. Hope can be so cruel... but there is still faint hope.

In fact, what so far is most absent from all theories is a plausible motive. If you merely wanted to crash a plane, why fly it for seven hours first along established air corridors? The best I've come up with is "the pilot was crazy", which doesn't seem particularly convincing and as far as we know there's little sign of it (though I understand he had built his own aircraft simulator in his house which one has to say is odd at least). But you end up coming back to the "crazy" hypothesis cos every other explanation makes even less sense.

It's time to call Sherlock in.


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## JSmit (Mar 15, 2014)

Can´t help thinking about the TV-series Lost ~o)


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## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2014)

My best case crazy scenario=purely financial hijacking. If the hijackers ransom the passengers for a million apiece, 50 million for the plane-bingo, 300 mil hijack if they could pull it off (can't imagine how). Somali pirates get away with their gig sometimes.

If only it was all about money. It's a measure of how weird this is that a huge blackmail would be a reason for relief.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> My best case crazy scenario=purely financial hijacking. If the hijackers ransom the passengers for a million apiece, 50 million for the plane-bingo, 300 mil hijack if they could pull it off (can't imagine how). Somali pirates get away with their gig sometimes.
> 
> If only it was all about money. It's a measure of how weird this is that a huge blackmail would be a reason for relief.



I've thought about that... then you think "so why has no-one said anything for a week?"


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 15, 2014)

Jonah Fisher - the BBC's correspondent in Myanmar/Burma correspondent has just tweeted this:

Being briefed by Malaysia officials they believe most likely location for MH370 is on land somewhere near Chinese/Kyrgyz border.

https://twitter.com/JonahFisher/status/ ... 0677553153


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## AC986 (Mar 15, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Mar 14 said:


> All conspiracy theories are welcome- go for it!



Alien thing probably. Snatched from outer space and whisked away to a far off planet to be later brought back and plonked in a desert.

Play a tone. Up a tone. Down a major 3rd. Down an octave. Up a perfect 5th.


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## Daryl (Mar 15, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> > All conspiracy theories are welcome- go for it!
> ...


Watch for errant Trombones though... :wink: 

D


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## KingIdiot (Mar 15, 2014)

transformer got tired of his day job.


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## AC986 (Mar 15, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> adriancook @ Sat Mar 15 said:
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> 
> > NYC Composer @ Fri Mar 14 said:
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Trombones!!! Tacit man, Tacit! :mrgreen:


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## Daryl (Mar 15, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Mar 15 said:
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> 
> > adriancook @ Sat Mar 15 said:
> ...


I was thinking more of the this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8LwXHAe7Y8

D


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## NYC Composer (Mar 15, 2014)

adriancook @ Sat Mar 15 said:


> NYC Composer @ Fri Mar 14 said:
> 
> 
> > All conspiracy theories are welcome- go for it!
> ...



How did Bob Balaban show up in everything....


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## Tatu (Mar 16, 2014)

http://www.bigbreakingnews.com/2014/03/ ... yXYjmSSxAO


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## AlexandreSafi (Mar 16, 2014)

Six important facts you're not being told about lost Malaysia Airlines Flight 370:

http://www.naturalnews.com/044244_Malay ... shed.html#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZtz-HVy6c

Me thinks either: 
- 1)Already found 
- 2)Hoax 
- 3)"Shot down"!


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## davidgary73 (Mar 16, 2014)

This news have indeed hit us Malaysians pretty hard and the current news is that the plane was hijacked. 

More news here: 

http://m.malaysiakini.com/news/257152

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2 ... l-fanatic/


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## TheUnfinished (Mar 16, 2014)

I know Larry said all conspiracy theories welcome... but surely there's still no need to go as far as reading Natural News?


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## H.R. (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm really sorry for families who have members on that plane but on the other hand I have this guilty desire that I don't want it to be found. It would be a great mystery for ever! (I know It sound so sick).

Anyway It's really horrifying if it's really has been hijacked, especially when you think about 11 September and all that possibilities. 

Praying for the best!


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## choc0thrax (Mar 16, 2014)

H.R. @ Sun Mar 16 said:


> I have this guilty desire that I don't want it to be found. It would be a great mystery for ever!





H.R. @ Sun Mar 16 said:


> Praying for the best!



Hmmm. Although it appears you're not the only one who doesn't want it found: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1170 ... retly-hope

Warning: the article is incredibly stupid.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 17, 2014)

OK so here's a true worst case scenario that is straight from Hollywood, but since so few theories make any sense, here goes.

Big Evil Terrorist Group has acquired a weapon of mass destruction (nuclear, biochemical etc). They want to destroy part of the USA with it. But they need a delivery system, so they need a good modern plane. They enlist the help of super-high-tech geeks who are able to gain control of a 777 remotely from inside the plane, and have technology to evade reliable radar detection.

So on board (and probably with the help of one of the crew), they cyber-jack the 777, taking it to altitude where the passengers pass out and they have their own oxygen supply. They fly to a remote space they control in Kazakhstan and hide. There they spend a couple of weeks fitting it out with their WMD and extra-high-strength radar-evading tech. Then they fuel up to capacity and head off for New York.

Only one man can stop them.... from the producers of Olympus Has Fallen....


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## NYC Composer (Mar 17, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 17 said:


> OK so here's a true worst case scenario that is straight from Hollywood, but since so few theories make any sense, here goes.
> 
> Big Evil Terrorist Group has acquired a weapon of mass destruction (nuclear, biochemical etc). They want to destroy part of the USA with it. But they need a delivery system, so they need a good modern plane. They enlist the help of super-high-tech geeks who are able to gain control of a 777 remotely from inside the plane, and have technology to evade reliable radar detection.
> 
> ...



In an interesting plot twist, the terrorists pick another large city in some country that shall remain nameless but helped the U.S. during the Iraq war.....

Enough with NYC already. These guys MUST be bored with us by now.


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## AC986 (Mar 17, 2014)

Got to find the plane Larry. Can't have that crashing down on people and buildings loaded up with God knows what. Even a nuclear device is very very remotely possible.

That's WW3 this time if that plane hits a city in the west full of civilians again. Or it would certainly but the total destruction of certain regions.

Of course it's still possible that it tragically crashed into the sea. I kind of doubt that now though.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 17, 2014)

adriancook @ Mon Mar 17 said:


> Got to find the plane Larry. Can't have that crashing down on people and buildings loaded up with God knows what. Even a nuclear device is very very remotely possible.
> 
> That's WW3 this time if that plane hits a city in the west full of civilians again. Or it would certainly but the total destruction of certain regions.
> 
> Of course it's still possible that it tragically crashed into the sea. I kind of doubt that now though.



I have to agree. I was hoping for ransom communications, but that looks less likely every day. 

It sures feels like the Malaysian government has been going at this in a ponderous and unhelpful way. Early days are the best times to track down clues. The just started vetting the pilots now- more than a week later.


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## chimuelo (Mar 17, 2014)

When in doubt.


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## quidam (Mar 17, 2014)

This seems to be true:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi5hFrNCQAAuF2K.jpg


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## AC986 (Mar 17, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 17 said:


> It sures feels like the Malaysian government has been going at this in a ponderous and unhelpful way. Early days are the best times to track down clues. The just started vetting the pilots now- more than a week later.



I watch it on BBC and Sky news and they just look like rank amateurs.


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## paulmatthew (Mar 17, 2014)

De Plane


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 17, 2014)

Now this IS interesting... did MH370 fly in the shadow of another plane to evade detection?

http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68-sq68 (http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/ ... sia68-sq68)


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## chimuelo (Mar 17, 2014)

Hey Paulwhittacker,
The little guy from Fantasty Island you showed was a Vegas man, and sadly killed himself from a medical condition, but was known to be a great tipper, and gentlemen and was sorely missed by many.
But even at this funeral it was like a Gatsby Party and he was a huge M & Ms patron, more so than Van Halen.
Guess which M & M was his favorite though....? The Plain
Even Micheal Jackson and Lise Presley were at the wake.
And sadly they were divorced not too long after that.
The real reason Elvis' daughter wanted out, there was s big misunderstanding when he said he wanted kids. She was thinking of children, motherhood, that kind of stuff.


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## paulmatthew (Mar 17, 2014)

And don't forget about Herve's great appearance in the Bond film "The Man With Golden Gun" . One of the stand out characters from the entire Bond film series.


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## The Darris (Mar 17, 2014)

paulmatthew @ Mon Mar 17 said:


> And don't forget about Herve's great appearance in the Bond film "The Man With Golden Gun" . One of the stand out characters from the entire Bond film series.



Or his timeless role in Richard Elfman's "The Forbidden Zone." And to tie that into VI-Control, the score to that movie was written by Danny Elfman, Richard's brother. Danny also played the role of the devil in that movie as well. Such a cult-classic.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 18, 2014)

The Darris @ Mon Mar 17 said:


> paulmatthew @ Mon Mar 17 said:
> 
> 
> > And don't forget about Herve's great appearance in the Bond film "The Man With Golden Gun" . One of the stand out characters from the entire Bond film series.
> ...



Or his classic performance as Rhett Butler in that epic from the South "Gone With The W..."...

Wait. That was Clark Gable. Never mind.

So, is there a theory that Herve has returned from the dead to hijack an airliner?


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 18, 2014)

Just in case anyone is interested in actual theories...

This one has been gaining a lot of traction from the rationalists (of which I'd like to think I'm one), who insist things have been massively misinterpreted and over-analysed. From an experienced pilot:

https://plus.google.com/106271056358366 ... oeVjHJaGBz

I keep seeing it linked with comments like "finally someone talking sense".

To be fair, the original post is now 5 days old, but the author adds more info in the comments below. I can't see it as remotely consistent with the facts we know (if indeed they are facts). It can't be a fire with the plane ditching soon, the 7 hours of pings would disprove that theory. It seems wildly implausible that a fire would incapacitate the crew and all passengers, and yet somehow leave the plane fully intact to run on autopilot for 7 hours until it ran out of fuel. So - as a rationalist - I see this as a disproved theory unless someone can see something I've missed?


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## AC986 (Mar 18, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Tue Mar 18 said:


> The Darris @ Mon Mar 17 said:
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> 
> > paulmatthew @ Mon Mar 17 said:
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The trouble with guys like that is I always want to physically pick them up and carry them around for a while. Just can't help it.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 18, 2014)

adriancook @ Tue Mar 18 said:


> NYC Composer @ Tue Mar 18 said:
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> 
> > The Darris @ Mon Mar 17 said:
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It's probably the same instinct that makes them want to punch you in the cojones...


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## AC986 (Mar 18, 2014)

They'd still have to reach.

I carry them away and put them in the basement with the others. A sort of collection.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 18, 2014)

> Just in case anyone is interested in actual theories...



That sounds reasonable to me, assuming his information if right.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 18, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Tue Mar 18 said:


> > Just in case anyone is interested in actual theories...
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds reasonable to me, assuming his information if right.



I'm genuinely interested why you think it's reasonable given that 

A) the plane kept pinging for 7 hours after his postulated crash or

B) the fire took out at least the comms and flight deck crew and yet didn't do enough damage to stop it flying for 7 further hours.

I see it's appealing to rationalists but I can't understand why - it's at variance with basic known facts, as far as I can tell. It's a bit like everyone wanted to jump on the least complex theory even if it made no sense.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 18, 2014)

This is an important bit of information if true:

*The missing Malaysia Airlines jet's abrupt U-turn was programmed into the on-board computer well before the co-pilot calmly signed off with air traffic controllers, sources tell NBC News.

The change in direction was made at least 12 minutes before co-pilot Fariq Abdul Hamid said "All right, good night," to controllers on the ground, the sources said.

The revelation further indicates that the aircraft's mysterious turnaround was planned and executed in the cockpit before controllers lost contact with Flight 370. But it doesn't necessarily indicate an ulterior motive.

"Some pilots program an alternate flight plan in the event of an emergency," cautioned Greg Feith, a former National Transportation Safety Board crash investigator and NBC News analyst.*

That last bit by Greg Feith doesn't make any sense though since I'm sure they'd mention whatever the emergency was instead of just saying goodnight. 

I still think the best guess is pilot suicide. It's an interesting coincidence that the main pilot supported that Anwar dude who had just been convicted for ass rape 8 hours before the flight. And the main pilot also posted an angry message on his Facebook page last year about politics and that "sacrifice is necessary to achieve the goal of free democracy". Maybe this was his only way to really bring attention to this ruling he was angry with.

I couldn't help it and joined the global search and can confirm that flight 370 is not in my apartment or building's laundry room.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 18, 2014)

Elaborate suicide, if so. Very attention getting for his political cause to kill 200-odd people.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 18, 2014)

> I'm genuinely interested why you think it's reasonable given that



Because I haven't been following the details of this story, hence my typo: if what that guy's saying iS right.

To be honest, I'm uncomfortable making sport out of someone's tragedy. That applies to to those super-freaky 9/11 conspiracy theorists too.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 19, 2014)

Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> > I'm genuinely interested why you think it's reasonable given that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's fine - but this theory has become a bizarre meme that seems to have itself replaced rational debate. I'm not sure why people would want to comment if they've somehow missed the few essential facts that we do know, such as the 7 hours of pings. It's like supporting a new 9/11 theory that says all the planes had their autopilots fail.

Speaking of 9/11, that's the big big difference here. There is no Occam's Razor. There is no simple conventional theory that fits the known facts. I think conspiracy theories on 9/11, moon landings, climate change denial and JFK are total nonsense. This, right now, is different. There's no rational theory to support - yet. That will change hopefully and the mystery will be solved for most if us, but in 20 years the hardcore will always deny whatever it turns out to be.

As to the sport aspect of it, it's inevitable. As a species we love mystery - it's about 50% of books, tv and film. I find most of the jokes and gags (many here) pretty boring and tiresome, but as a genuine mystery it can't be beat.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 19, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> Nick Batzdorf @ Wed Mar 19 said:
> 
> 
> > > I'm genuinely interested why you think it's reasonable given that
> ...



I think you like a cracking mystery, Guy.

As I said earlier in the thread, in all seriousness, I find this whole thing incredibly disconcerting. My prior experiences with airplanes crashing into things and how it violently changed the lives of those closest to me, well...I think part of the reason I started this thread was to take some of the deep seriousness out of it. As was said earlier, there are loved ones involved here, and I feel awful for them-but this is such a strange one I felt compelled to turn around and face the monster .I refuse to live in fear and I refuse to run away. Removing those two options leaves one on the slightly jaded side, I guess.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 19, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Wed Mar 19 said:


> I think you like a cracking mystery, Guy.



I do - and the world does. I've read comments like "I've watched the news more in the past 8 days than the past 8 years". That's why CNN has gone insane over it, reporting never-ending ever-more-useless speculation on a treadmill, why the BBC News Channel suddenly feels the need to trailer the next MH370 report if it knows it's going to be talking about something trivial like Ukraine for the next 10 minutes.

I'm sure you remember all too well those first days after 9/11 and the numbing shock (my sister lives in NYC). Everyone's frame of reference was the same - "it was like a Hollywood movie". In fact, it exceeded it - there's that now cringe-inducing shot in Armageddon of the NYC skyline and a smouldering chunk taken out of the top of one of the twin towers. The difference between a Hollywood blockbuster and reality wasn't the scale of imagination it turned out, but rather that afterwards we don't cut to the next scene and forget about the thousands just killed.

Ocassionally I've seen an MH370 gag that made me laugh (I saw a revised map of the new search area, where someone had scrawled a red ring round the entire map of the world). I don't really have a problem with much of the rest, but its just not making me laugh...


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 21, 2014)

Maybe someone can explain this to me.

Day 3 of searching for something in the southern Indian Ocean that may or may not be some wreckage from MH370. Let's say it is, and they find it tomorrow. They'll recover it, and unless its the tail containing the black box, they'll find maybe a few clues. What will happen next?

Well, it will confirm that the plane went down at the end of the southern corridor (indeed I suspect that's the main reason its being taken so seriously, because its where they'd expect it to be). But it will have drifted maybe many hundreds of miles from the crash site - unless they find lots of wreckage that they can trace back to a best guess, then they'll just have that projected trajectory to go on that we saw many days ago. The race is on to pick up that black box signal which may expire after 30 days. The signal has a range of about 5 miles, so I presume that they'd just follow the trajectory after the last known ping from the airplane, using sonar and scanning for anything from the black box.

So here's my question. Given the lack of any other leads, and the knowledge that this wreckage - if that's what it is and it still exists... can't really tell them anything other than "look where you think it probably is", why aren't they doing this now?

Maybe they are and I missed the reporting of it (despite my obsession on the subject). But I can't think of many other logical things to do except do this and similarly sweep the (much less likely) northern trajectory.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 21, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Fri Mar 21 said:


> Maybe someone can explain this to me.
> 
> Day 3 of searching for something in the southern Indian Ocean that may or may not be some wreckage from MH370. Let's say it is, and they find it tomorrow. They'll recover it, and unless its the tail containing the black box, they'll find maybe a few clues. What will happen next?
> 
> ...



Despite my deep sorrow as to that possible event, there would be some sense of relief on my end if this was to be the case. This is a deeply personal issue to me, even if the evidence doesn't clarify the mystery. That said, can't answer your question.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 24, 2014)

If the most recent data is true, condolences to all those who lost loved ones. Now the conspiracy theories will begin in earnest.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 24, 2014)

Sad news indeed. Now they have a firmer trajectory... there's no time to lose. Get that scanner in the ocean and follow the apparently known trajectory for up to an hour's flying time. The sole focus on wreckage - if this data is as solid as they say - is perplexing.


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## AC986 (Mar 24, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> If the most recent data is true, condolences to all those who lost loved ones. Now the conspiracy theories will begin in earnest.



Yes indeed. And what a total fiasco too.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 25, 2014)

Jeepers - April 5, the Towed Pinger Locator will arrive on site. Pretty much time up.

http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/214395 ... ode=scroll


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 25, 2014)

Ah, right - if I've understood this correctly, actually they DON'T have a solid projection of the aircraft's path. All they have is a wide range of arcs:

https://www.facebook.com/17856688885499 ... =1&theater

(full text of the authorities technical briefing paper here- https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... eam_ref=10 )

And (again, if I've understood correctly) what they don't know is the aircraft's speed. If they knew that, they could pinpoint the trajectory. But the whole range of possible trajectories falls within the southern Indian Ocean, far from land.

It raises a few questions... not least of which is that I can't tell from this if indeed the aircraft did have a constant speed or not. Indeed, I read somewhere that one of the pings towards the end was anomalous in some way.

They do say "It should be noted that further work is required to determine the aircraft speed and final position." So it's not only a race to search half an ocean, and its also a race for mathematicians to get some tricky sums sorted out.


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## constaneum (Mar 27, 2014)

Let's just wait for the recovery of the plane's black box (if they manage to recover it) and review on what actually happens. Hopefully nothing gets covered up by the end of the day.


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## choc0thrax (Mar 27, 2014)

I have to say it's been fascinating to watch CNN put on a clinic of spinning something out of nothing. Day after day they bring you the exclusive, bombshell-laden news that nothing new has happened.

I shudder at the possible level of CNN coverage were the plane full of white, female college students.


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## Daryl (Mar 27, 2014)

constaneum @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Let's just wait for the recovery of the plane's black box (if they manage to recover it) and review on what actually happens. Hopefully nothing gets covered up by the end of the day.


When the French airliner went down, it took 2 years to find the black box, so I doubt that they'll be anything close to "end of day" about this.

D


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## NYC Composer (Mar 27, 2014)

Thank god retired pilots have discovered a new income stream and a new profession- talking head pundiitry.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 28, 2014)

Can someone here help me figure out this latest twist?

So they've calculated the following:

1. The plane was travelling faster than first thought, at least initially.

2. When travelling faster, the plane will run out of fuel quicker.

So they're now following a different trajectory, based on that information. But here's where I'm confused - basic maths says that if a plane is travelling faster for a known length of time, it will travel further. We know a MINIMUM time frame that the plane was moving - 7 hours after contact was lost. Now I presume that if they're now saying it ran out of fuel earlier as a result, we're now looking at pretty much that 7 hour flight time, whereas (retrospectively) it logically must have been nearer 8 before the fuel ran out (if that's indeed what happened). I don't know if >8 hours is possible, of if they definitely would have received another ping an hour later and / or have calculated that they couldn't have had enough fuel to take it that far. Does that sound right to anyone? I can't figure out any other logical possibility.

If all of that is correct and they've now fixed more on the right trajectory rather than a wide range of possible speeds, than that's good news for the search for the black box. They'd have a pretty good last known position (rather than anything from that point on for at least an hour's flight time).

The graphic Australia published today is superficially very confusing - the flight path ending slap bang right in the middle of new search area for wreckage is NOT this new new faster path - that's the range between the two other dotted lines, I guess. Its the 20 day drift, presumably, that takes it into the search area. http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Gua ... 0x318.jpeg

Final thought for now - how ridiculous is it that cockpit voice recorders only record for 2 hours and then wipe everything from before? In today's world that seems inexcusably insane. You can get a thumbnail size 64gb micro sd card that could hold 96 hours of 1 track uncompressed 16 bit audio....


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## NYC Composer (Mar 28, 2014)

"Based on revised data, the EXPERTS have determined..."

Search and rescue seems to be a somewhat inexact art.


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## AC986 (Mar 28, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Fri Mar 28 said:


> "Based on revised data, the EXPERTS have determined..."
> 
> Search and rescue seems to be a somewhat inexact art.



So it's a revised fiasco.


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## snowleopard (Mar 28, 2014)

Lots to say here. My cousin is a pilot (not commercial, flew many aircraft in the Navy), my ex was a flight attendant who wanted to learn to fly. I became a geek studying air safety over the years. 

I agree it's a grand mystery with no Occam’s razor. That does make it very intriguing, even though I still feel horrible for the passengers and their loved ones. 

Speed to fuel consumption doesn't equal an easily calculable distance arc when you throw in altitude. Not only factoring nautical miles, but also air density. Then there's also wind. Soon, you have a huge area to look through. 

As soon as they get to at least some of the wreckage they’ll have a better idea what brought the plane down. If it’s fire they’ll find evidence If the airframe broke up mid flight, they’ll figure that out as well. Same if the engines were running and at what rough power level. All of that will be answered without the black boxes. 

As to the black boxes, I believe the FDR on most now have up to 8 hours of digital recordings, with the CVR having two. But other modern aircraft is longer. It used to be 30 minutes. Also, in some older commercial aircrafts, the CVR and FDR had breakers in the cockpit that could be pulled. If this is the case with the 777, you’ll get next to nothing on either black box. Both Adam Air 574 and Air France 447 had boxes recovered many months after they stopped transmitting pings. But in both cases teams knew where to look for them. Both were in deep water, with the Air France boxes in a very rugged underwater area. This area, if they can find the boxes, is fairly deep, and the waters rarely calm, making it difficult as well. 

As to potential on-board failures, I think this is very unlikely, though possible. A few things would have had to come into play: First, something that took out systems slowly over a period of time was probably unnoticed by the flight crew, or, took out all communication systems. Hence, they didn't say a single thing over the radio, not one. But even blind, the pilots could have roughly followed lights on the ground and would not have flown where they did. That made no sense. 

Greg Feith is a very well respected former NTSB investigator, but his statement on alternate programming of the ACARS system was either taken out of context, or he didn’t elaborate. What I mean to say is this: Presuming they re-programmed the system, then became incapacitated and the flight continued on its own to its new destination, that destination would have been nowhere near where the plane actually headed. Pilots will sometimes program in alternate emergency airports, future legs or return flights, things like this. Never somewhere the plane cannot land like the south Indian Ocean towards Antarctica! 

There are two ways around this as I see it. One, someone hit a wrong button right when the emergency on board happened. Two, without actually programming anything, the pilots disengaged the autopilot after turning the plane towards Africa (was it hijacked?) and after that something happened to incapacitate them, and the flight continued on a relatively level course before crashing. Talk about long odds…

It’s more likely there was some sort of hijacking, or pilot suicide. But even these are peculiar to say the least. First, assuming there was a hijacking, just about anyone over the age of 30 would think at least in the back of their mind that post 9/11 the person hijacking the plane wanted to crash it. Especially with some 6 hours to think about it. Did they all just sit there? 

As to pilot suicide, this is also peculiar. Why would a pilot lock the other pilot out of the cockpit, and then sit and wax and ponder his suicide for the next six hours before the plane finally ran out of fuel or he ditched it? Six hours? You’d think they would do what happened with Egypt Air 990, and they just ditch it. Also, I don’t know the details of the 777’s security system but presuming one pilot was locked out they still would have had access to the coded door lock, no? Is this lock possible to change from the inside? Or have a total lockout feature? Also, despite the door being reinforced, you’d think with six hours to ponder their fate, passengers would have made an attempt to breach it anyway, even if trying to destroy the bulkhead. Or even get under the cabin and access the avionics. Then you have to wonder if the pilot locked everyone out, then depressurized the cabin while wearing an oxygen mask and waiting for their oxygen masks to run out. But that takes a mindset that’s quite sinister and elaborate, and not one that is often the same as suicidal.


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## JonFairhurst (Mar 28, 2014)

Regarding black boxes, I believe the time is limited because the use (or used?) high temperature magnetic wire as the recording medium. Tape could melt or burn. Silicon can get crushed. Hi-temp wire is pretty darn rugged.

Then again, maybe they use silicon within a block of titanium these days. I'm no expert.

And yeah, post 911, if somebody tries to hijack a plane, I'm assuming the worst. I'll take action if at all possible. And if they try to stop me by threatening a hostage, it's no deterrent - we're all hostages. It's a nothing-to-lose situation.


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## The Darris (Mar 28, 2014)

Let me weigh in on the CVR and FDR. I flew in the Air Force for 3 years and my jet, KC-135, was a variant of the common Boeing 707 passenger jet built in the 50's. Anyway, our blackbox was not as protected as most civilian airliners these days and after the most recent crash of a -135 in Kyrgyzstan last year, it survived. Look at the picture below, that is what it looks like when you crash with nearly 200,000 pounds of fuel onboard. Civilian airliners going from US to UK typically have around 70-80K pounds of fuel. The heat of the fire in the -135 crash burnt so hot that nearly everything was molten metal at the scene. Crash into the water, not going to last as long or burn as long. So, my personal opinion would be that the black box is fine and will be fine for a while, especially if it can survive this wreck. (picture too big for the forums)
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/g/o/gogiman/b4b39b57163fc4c91a42adefb2e9219f.jpg


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 29, 2014)

Interesting posts, folks.

Jeepers, I'm losing faith in everything and everyone involved in this. I read in the Guardian yesterday - almost as an aside - that a Malaysian official told some relatives that he was "not at liberty" to reveal some precise flight details.

Nothing is making any sense to me any more. The plane, we're told, was travelling faster initially, then more slowly later. And yet I thought we had fixed points from military radar from the first part of the journey. So how can it be suddenly travelling faster?

I think this is a wild goose chase right now. Maybe they'll find something definitive tomorrow, but since the new search area just happens to be one of those vortexes where rubbish circulates in perpetuity, I suspect all these "debris fields" are, literally, rubbish.

Increasingly I'm understanding the anger and rage of the relatives - they've been incredibly badly served.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm generally pretty cynical about inter-governmental cooperation. That said, I have the feeling that the best people are doing what they can in a diificult and inexact science. 
Other than the usual spate of conspiracy theories suggested by the thread title, what would be the motivation to mess this investigation up?

I think it's a hard process and the "experts" are probably taking new data and doing what is required given new information. The media isn't helping by trumpeting every scrap of new info as gospel.


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## The Darris (Mar 29, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sat Mar 29 said:


> I'm generally pretty cynical about inter-governmental cooperation. That said, I have the feeling that the best people are doing what they can in a diificult and inexact science.
> Other than the usual spate of conspiracy theories suggested by the thread title, what would be the motivation to mess this investigation up?
> 
> I think it's a hard process and the "experts" are probably taking new data and doing what is required given new information. The media isn't helping by trumpeting every scrap of new info as gospel.



Welcome to the post-9/11 mentality. Even though conspiracies have always been at work, the massive amount of media coverage and how quickly information (or lack there of) can be spread quickly across the world, we have waayyyy more people creating some bizarre conspiracies. I agree with you though, we just need the experts to do there job and not speculate on anything until the evidence presents itself.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 29, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 30 said:


> I'm generally pretty cynical about inter-governmental cooperation. That said, I have the feeling that the best people are doing what they can in a diificult and inexact science.
> Other than the usual spate of conspiracy theories suggested by the thread title, what would be the motivation to mess this investigation up?
> 
> I think it's a hard process and the "experts" are probably taking new data and doing what is required given new information. The media isn't helping by trumpeting every scrap of new info as gospel.



I think that was my position until a couple of days ago. Goodness knows I'm obsessed with the case and devouring all the information, but two things have changed my view that everyone's doing the best that they can.

1. The revelation that the Malaysians have admitted they're not at liberty to pass on specifics of the flight's location, and 

2. The current information appears to be internally inconsistent, but there's little or no analysis or reflection on that.

In this case, free and honest flow of information is paramount, and I don't think that's happening.

What's a motivation? Possibly the most plausible conspiracy is that the plane was hijacked (by pilot or others), and was then shot down by someone, somewhere, when the plane invaded their airspace and assumed to be a threat. The whole region is so fractured politically, I couldn't begin to unpick the complexities of motivations to be honest.

The hardcore consipracists point to Diego Garcia. It sounds ludicrously implausible to be, be there again pretty much everything does.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 30, 2014)

Actually, i was talking about the Australians.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 30, 2014)

NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 30 said:


> Actually, i was talking about the Australians.



Oh fair enough! Yeah - don't see what else they can do.


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## NYC Composer (Mar 30, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Sun Mar 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Mar 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, i was talking about the Australians.
> ...



Guy, you probably saw the same Aussie news conference I did where they were explaining why they moved the search area, and talking about search and recover missions having to adjust to whatever new data comes in- hence my comments about experts doing what they can in an inexact science.

As to the who, how, what and why- it's really anyone's guess for now.


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## Guy Rowland (Mar 31, 2014)

Revised last words transmitted from the cockpit - http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/missin ... ght-n67871 .

How the hell can they get the last words wrong and not correct it for 2 weeks?! What a sad farce. Like the quote from the NTSB guy in the story above - sums it up well.

I see Inmarsat and others are meeting directly with the relatives - a good move I think.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 1, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Mon Mar 31 said:


> I see Inmarsat and others are meeting directly with the relatives - a good move I think.



...or not. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... ve-updates

Sheesh. Omnishambles.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 1, 2014)

We call it clusterfck.


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## snowleopard (Apr 1, 2014)

Removing the conspiracy theory, and sticking with what’s most logical (if not at all conclusive), that the aircraft crashed into the southern Indian Ocean, some other thoughts come to mind as to why they aren’t finding anything. 

If we look back over history at planes that crashed into water, we’re left with a trend, though not exact. That being, planes that tend to crash at high speed, fully intact, tend to shatter enough, and have the larger sections go under quickly, that not a lot of visible debris may be left on the surface. Planes that break up in the air, tend to leave bigger chunks. Recent history has several planes crashing into the ocean. The most direct, high speed impact accident I can think of is Alaskan Air 291 off California’s coast in 2000. Here are some photos. In the first photo there are skimmers taking debris off the surface. Can you see any debris? I can’t. The second photo shows the size of some of the debris. The third photo does show an oil/fuel slick. But if MH370 was out of fuel, there would be much less of a slick. 

Add in factors like time lost, a churning ocean with other debris, and it may explain why it’s so very difficult finding any meaningful debris.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 2, 2014)

Good post, Snow. Given the potential search area is so vast (almost incomprehensibly so), it's a tall ask. My problem really is becoming that I'm far from convinced that the search teams are being given the right area at all in the first place, making a very difficult task pretty much impossible.

Here's a very interesting website - http://www.duncansteel.com/ . As far as I can make out, he's no conspiracy theorist nut, but he's spent the last few weeks doing endless maths based upon the available data that is in the public domain. Today, for the first time (I'm aware of), he's turned his attention to the northern trajectory options that have been ruled out by Inmarsat, and reached very different conclusions. It's obvious that the northern option is far less likely for all sorts of practical reasons, but the idea that it still can't be ruled out is pretty sobering. I find the constant changing of the information released by the Malaysians, and the secrecy that means the full known Imnarsat data (and quite possibly more) still isn't in the public domain, to be deeply concerning. 26 countries are now involved in the search, and yet the raw data is still either buried or inconsistent?

Of the conspiracy theories themselves, the Diego Garcia one is the one that has gained most traction (google for the supposed text message from a passenger).  Of all the wild flotsam and jetsam that accompanies the lurid tales, there is one aspect that genuinely intrigues me - the widely reported sightings of a very low flying plane that would match both the phyiscal description and timing of MH370 in the Maldives. The stories were widely reported a couple of weeks ago, but quickly dismissed by the authorities. I'm suprised more investigative reporting hasn't been done on this - if it was a) genuinely multiple independent sightings and b) unusual and not explained by known air traffic, it still seems like a significant sighting. The problem with everyone now looking in one place based on what could be the same very shaky information is that other plausible leads might well be overlooked.


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## snowleopard (Apr 7, 2014)

Well, it's looking more and more that they found the black boxes. Actually, I shouldn't say that. They have located the area where the boxes are likely to be found by receiving pings from what appears to be two separate receiving devices. The total verification of that, plus isolating their location, before the battery runs out, remains to be seen. Then, the long process of recovering them. 

Doing some serious digging, it appears that the circuit breakers for the black boxes (and ACARS) cannot be accessed from the flight deck. They must be accessed through the E&E (electronics) bay. This is not an easy task. You have to pull up the carpet in the cockpit, then climb below the flight deck. The word is even engineers take schematics with them when working in there, and most pilots only know the basics. I believe you need to access the E&E to kill ACARS entirely. Meaning, ACARS can perhaps only be "dumbed down" in the cockpit, not shut off entirely. Haven't verified this. Also, some links say the E&E access isn't in the cockpit, but just outside the door. If that's the case, it would take an incredibly sophisticated hijacking to pull this off, with a person extremely knowledgeable about 777 avionics. Like, a flight engineer, or senior captain. Plus other terrorists to keep everyone else at bay, plus fly the plane. Considering all the passengers checked out as being everyday people...

Could a rogue pilot have put the plane on autopilot, then crawled under the cockpit into the E&E and pulled the circuit breakers on the ACARS, and black boxes (if it's only accessible from the cockpit)? It would take some studying and planning. But if there's a way... However, even shutting off the circuit breaker won't completely defeat the black boxes. They have battery back-ups. How long does the battery last? I couldn't find that out. Also, I couldn't find out if the CVR breaker kills the main power to the CVR, or just re-sets it (so it starts the loop over), or both. the FDR cannot be shut off or reset. Pulling the breaker merely stops the main power to them, and causes it to use back-up power. 

However, if there is one rogue pilot, he may have said little in the cockpit at all. But the FDR would still have valuable data, even if the CB were pulled and the battery eventually died. Also, presuming they find enough debris eventually, investigators will still very likely be able to determine what brought the aircraft down. If it ran out of fuel, was wilfully ditched, fire, cabin pressure, any in-flight break-up, etc. There are many clues that investigators are skilled at looking for. 

Great pic of E&E bay: 

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk26 ... G_0321.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ystem.html

http://aviation.stackexchange.com/quest ... turned-off

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... ab.01.html

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/safet ... ng-36.html


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2014)

....but if I read CNN correctly "they" don't absolutely know anything yet, so...?


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## snowleopard (Apr 7, 2014)

I think what may be going on is that officials are saying "we don't know anything" until they are certain because when they tried to speculate before, they ended up coming off caustic and uncaring to the families of those on the flight. And to be honest, if it were a relative or friend of mine on the flight, I would have been upset too to hear them make educated guesses without having the facts too. 

Broad speculation belongs on the blogosphere, or boards like this one. Media outlets can try to give angles and probable options based on facts, and history. But the officials should not do that, at all.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 7, 2014)

snowleopard @ Mon Apr 07 said:


> I think what may be going on is that officials are saying "we don't know anything" until they are certain because when they tried to speculate before, they ended up coming off caustic and uncaring to the families of those on the flight. And to be honest, if it were a relative or friend of mine on the flight, I would have been upset too to hear them make educated guesses without having the facts too.
> 
> Broad speculation belongs on the blogosphere, or boards like this one. Media outlets can try to give angles and probable options based on facts, and history. But the officials should not do that, at all.



'zactly why I began this thread. Public service, you know.


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## chimuelo (Apr 10, 2014)

First off I didn't want to say anything weeks back, but in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines you have the most lying-ist cultures in the world.
I have travelled there many times and it's baked into their psyche.
They wish to appear intelligent and informed on all things and answering as quickly as a game show player is more important.
Also lying and getting busted for it is of little consequence, afterall world leaders and especially DC Ass Clowns get paid for this, so they probably all aspire to be like our leaders.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 11, 2014)

It's hard to think of a scenerio where they haven't now found the voice and data recorders. That leaves most of the wildest conspiracy theories looking pretty silly #diegogarcia - the idea that the USA have planted black boxes seems, um, not fully thought through. But of course it still leaves the main questions unanswered. Suicide? Mechanical? Terrorism? Even fly-by-wire would still be a theoretical possibility I guess, and with only 2 hours of voice data maximum potentially to be recovered, it's gonna take quite some investigation.

The bald facts (as much as we can rely on them) seem to be - plane turned left, flew for a while, then right, then left again, flew for hours and ditched into the Ocean. That would seem to make purely mechanical problems the least plausible unless there's some explanation as to why an autopilot would fly such an apparently convoluted route. I think suicide seems most likely right now, though its a bizarre and complex one to be sure - still no real Occam's Razor.


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## chimuelo (Apr 11, 2014)

The only theory I can understand is how American Pravda has been told to tame down Putins Crimea/Ukraine invasion, and silence all news from Venezuela by mkaking us listen to a bunch of crap.
If China punished Malaysia diplomatically I wouldn't mind one bit for their misleading game of hide and seek and lie your ass off blurbs every week.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 11, 2014)

chimuelo @ Fri Apr 11 said:


> The only theory I can understand is how American Pravda has been told to tame down Putins Crimea/Ukraine invasion, and silence all news from Venezuela by mkaking us listen to a bunch of crap.
> If China punished Malaysia diplomatically I wouldn't mind one bit for their misleading game of hide and seek and lie your ass off blurbs every week.



Ah yes of course - just remind me how their clever diversionary tactic resulted in a voice and data recorder 4km deep in the Indian Ocean?


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## AC986 (Apr 11, 2014)

chimuelo @ Thu Apr 10 said:


> First off I didn't want to say anything weeks back, but in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines you have the most lying-ist cultures in the world.



Watching these guys in Malaysia come on TV and talk basic bullshit with obviously no fucking idea of what they're talking about, what has actually happened, or WTF they're going to do about it, is not really a confidence booster.

One guy came on and had enough ribbons on his uniform he would have needed to have won a world war single handed to get that much.


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 17, 2014)

Oh my lord, another Malaysian Airlines 777 is down:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28354856

Likely shot down over Eastern Ukraine.

Obviously a tragedy for all the families of those on board, but I feel for Malasyian Airlines too - they might not be able to survive this, even if they are totally blameless in both cases.

In the meantime, the conspiracy theorists will now go into overdrive, as many speculated (or often stated as fact) as there was a Russian / Ukrainian dimension to the loss of MH370 (eg - http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/20 ... 21180.html ). I suspect it's horrible coincidence - I hope at least a truly independent investigation is possible, but that might be a tall ask.


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## Chriss Ons (Jul 17, 2014)

Absolutely terrible. 

But, given the history of this crisis, how can an airline make the decision to _continue to fly over that region?_ Baffling.


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 17, 2014)

Josquin @ Thu Jul 17 said:


> Absolutely terrible.
> 
> But, given the history of this crisis, how can an airline make the decision to _continue to fly over that region?_ Baffling.



Well as many have pointed out already, commercial airlines have been flying over war zones for decades, and this air corridor was in constant use. AFAIK the recent downings of aircraft in Ukraine were flying at a relatively low level, not over 30,000ft, so commercial aircraft weren't seen as at risk. Obviously now every airline is giving the region a wide berth. Looks very much like Russian rebels - one of their leaders boasted of downing a military plane earlier on his website, linking to the pictures we've all seen. It was hurriedly taken down - http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-se ... 60930.html


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## Jaap (Jul 17, 2014)

A spokesman from Malesyan Airlines confirmed there have been 154 victims at least from The Netherlands. Unbelievable... My heart and thoughts to the families of all the victims (Dutch and non Dutch)


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## Chriss Ons (Jul 17, 2014)

Guy Rowland @ Thu 17 Jul said:


> Well as many have pointed out already, commercial airlines have been flying over war zones for decades, and this air corridor was in constant use. AFAIK the recent downings of aircraft in Ukraine were flying at a relatively low level, not over 30,000ft, so commercial aircraft weren't seen as at risk. Obviously now every airline is giving the region a wide berth. Looks very much like Russian rebels - one of their leaders boasted of downing a military plane earlier on his website, linking to the pictures we've all seen. It was hurriedly taken down - http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-se ... 60930.html



Overall, there seem to be many conflicting news reports pouring in. Now it would have been an _Ukrainian_ Buk missile. The black boxes have reportedly been recovered, as well.

But whatever the outcome of the blame game, nothing will bring those people back. What happened is just gut wrenching, and completely senseless.

And FWIW Guy, the Ukrainian air traffic authority Ukraerorukh released a statement in early July that the air space over the areas where the government’s “anti-terror” operation is underway was_ closed over security concerns..._.


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## Guy Rowland (Jul 17, 2014)

Josquin - closed up to 31,000 ft. The international air corridor is above that.

And yes, the suspicion is that the rebels used a BUK.


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## RiffWraith (Jul 17, 2014)

According to a guest on CNN, the largest state-controlled TV network in Russia, is reporting that the Ukrainian military fired at Vladimir Putin's plane, but instead accidentally hit flight MH-17. Absolutely lovely that this sort of thing is still going on.


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## NYC Composer (Jul 18, 2014)

There is so much bad, repetitive crap going on in the world today that I can't even bring myself to start a topic.


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## G.R. Baumann (Jul 18, 2014)

:evil: 

Whoever shot down this plane, if it was deliberate, they committed a war crime. 

This was not a shot in the dark, albeit being somewhat oldish, and whatever version of BUK that was, whether it was linked to higher command levels or operated by themselves, the target acquisition range, MACH 3 warhead and precision is capable of delivering a >90% kill probability to a "slow moving" object like this airplane.

Regarding who fired the missile, I find both scenarios plausible, and I am seceptical whether we will get conclusive evidence leaving no doubts. There are several scenarios concerning the IFF system used to identify planes as civil or military, but all are speculation and this I am afraid will remain in this realm. 

If this was deliberate, I must admit though, the thought has crossed my mind, cui bono? Who would be likely to benefit from such horrific attack? I keep this to myself but I do have my suspicions.

Last but not least, there is another possible scenario, such as Iran Air Flight 655 for example. All possible, but regardless what happend, it is certainly really sickening!


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## constaneum (Jul 18, 2014)

It's truly a sad and grieving news for all the victims' family. May all those who perished in this tragedy RIP. Sad for my country's airline which suffered huge loses due to MH370 and now MH17. I can't imagine how the national carrier going to survive this financially. Seems like luck isn't with the national carrier. 

With the shot down of 3 planes within a week near the war zone, it really makes me wonder whether international aviation organisation will take serious consideration in terms of equipping commercial jetliners with anti-missle flares as the basic/fundamental auto-defense mechanism. Sigh...


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