# Creativity limited by samples



## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

Okay, i will try to explain in my average english, hopefully someone understands what I mean:

I have a classically trained background, cello studies and lots of orchestral performances, (nothing can beat the experience of sitting in the middle of a big orchestra performing a Brahms symphony).
So I can say that I am used to the sound of an authentic, real orchestra.
Some years ago I started doing cello sample recordings for the VSL ( I still do these days) and I was curious to know what these guys do with our instruments, so I purchased a basic version of VSL and wrote my very first orchestral pieces into Logic 7 on my iMac.
I was so impressed about the fact that i could hear almost in realtime what I wrote.A whole new world.
This is how I got into composition.
Now, some years later after collecting all kinds of sample libraries I realized one thing (after listening to my pieces again):
When I compose my ideas get limited to the abilities of the library I am using, sometimes I have ideas that I want to realize but I can't turn them into music because either it takes days of programming or the library just simply has not the right articulations/patches.This can be arpeggios or triple tongue techniques, slow tremolos or weird fast runs.
Maybe I am a bad programmer, but this really is a handbreak for my creativity.
So I realized after some time that I tend to write slow, melancholic pieces because these are much easier to program, just some legato lines combined with some other stuff to hide bad sounding midi data 
When I compose I try to achieve the most possible realistic sound, when it sounds too artificially caused by unnatural sounding samples I throw it away and the piece changes because of that.
Did anybody else experience issues like that in his own workflow?

Christof


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## Lupez (Feb 18, 2013)

The only suggestion I feel I can give you is that if you aim at being a respected professional in this field, like any other field, you never publicly admit your limitations - it feels highly unprofessional.

You recently had a nod by Hans Zimmer for your work - well just re-read your post and pretend Hans Zimmer wrote it, what would you think of him? that he's not very good at what he does.
Now just delete you post and work your way 'round your current limitations!


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## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

Interesting approach Lupez, but I am far away from Zimmers level of success, and I thought this here is the perfect place to share my thoughts, or do you think that I really earn laughter and disrespect by talking about something that might be a problem for many composers nowadays?
I never said that I am not good in what I do, and I really don't want to sound arrogant, maybe naive, yes.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 18, 2013)

I think your observation is very valid. Very. 

That being said the question is how to deal with the situation. I think it is very important to get impulse from the possibilities in contrast to be slowed down by the limitations. One person's problem can be another person's drive (if the problem can get solved which needs analysis though).

Why not use piano samples for the composing process and then make it happen with whatever you have at your hands (combination of samples, instruments, treating the studio as an instrument, collaborations with other live musicians etc.). 

That is what I have done a number of times. Actually the situation that you are describing brought me into the recording business originally.


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## Lupez (Feb 18, 2013)

Well today you may not be succesful as Zimmer but perhaps he's become successful because he never had this loser attitude. 
You admitted you are a "bad programmer" - your words - and that you feel limited by it. 

Just pretend I was a director peeping over this board looking for a strong composer for my movie - reading your post, I would pass over to the next composer!


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## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

I have to add something very important:
I did NOT mean that my music would be much better if my samples could do anything!I just said that my music is different from what I want it to be, don't get me wrong here!!


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## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

> Just pretend I was director peeping over this board, looking for a strong composer for my movie - reading your post, I would pass over to the next composer!



Okay, dear directors, I am a good composer but a bad programmer, give me a job with a real orchestra 

(Sorry Lupez, this is arrogant now, but sometimes I can't hold back my sarcasm, don't take me serious)


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## Studio E (Feb 18, 2013)

From my experience, and I know many others feel the same, you are absolutely correct. But you are also doing the right thing in that situation which to write to the strength of the samples. I would imagine that, if there are ways to overcome the perceived limitations, the best way to do that would be to force yourself into a situation that will require more than what you know you can safely do. Whether that forces you to write differently, program in new ways, or hire live players, you will learn a new level of what is possible by overcoming these obstacles. Just my humble opinion.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 18, 2013)

I don't agree for one minute that Christof's attitude is a problem. I actually see this honesty as a plus. The fact that he is aware of the limitations of sample libraries is proof that he has good ears and musical experience. And what is this forum for if not for sharing honest experiences among fellow artists? Do you really think directors regularly take time from their busy schedules to read random posts on composers' forums? 

As for the limitations of virtual compositions, these could be plus. I have found that limitations of all types in writing help to focus the act of creation. Narrowing choices means that we can get on with the process of aligning ideas, making something that has cohesion because it is made from a defined set of materials, not just a bit of everything under the sun. It can be akin to having your own sound because your Telecaster is not, and never will be a Les Paul.

I can't stand the use of the word 'loser' in the context of this valuable thread.


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## Lupez (Feb 18, 2013)

Christof, I don't mean to sound arrogant either and I apologize if I am spoiling your thread, which I feel is asking for a very tech-savvy reply.

It just occured to me that you've got some serious accomplishments, a great showreel and you've just been aknowledged by one the biggest names in the industry, so make sure you feel and sound proud of your work! 
Honesty is great in life but too much honesty can do damage to your career.

best!


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 18, 2013)

I can think of many more things that will do much more damage to a career: laziness, arrogance, lying, bad communication skills, lack of personal awareness, bad health, bad breath, drug or alcohol addiction, the-world-owes-me attitude, poor musical skills, etc, etc, etc. Honesty rocks!!


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## nickhmusic (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm absolutely in agreement with Ned here, and I admire Christof's approach in bringing up this subject. It is an issue that I'm sure many of us deal with at times. 

Sometimes you have a great unique idea and your samples are working against you. So it can be tempting to just stick with what feels comfortable, using sounds that work. This can make it hard to express yourself properly when that awesome idea comes along!

Take short note articulations for example - spiccatos in a repetitive pattern playing very quickly. Almost all the time, I reach a point where there will be a sample that will stick out like a sore thumb and despite the round robin/alternate/random sample playback, that offending sample keeps cropping up and messing up my MOJO! 

However, it reminds me of something David Arnold once said - never make excuses for not having the right gear or the right equipment - just don't do the track if you can't make it sound good...

Personally I will do whatever I can to make my piece sound as good as I can within the limitations of my samples. But yeah, sometimes it just doesn't work - that is usually where I'll go looking for another library if the track is worth it.

BTW, directors who may or may not be perusing this board are certainly not put off by honest chat between like-minded composers, they are usually far more interested in the quality of the work and whether or not you can deliver the goods.

Loser attitude? No, not at all actually. Far from it.


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## Lupez (Feb 18, 2013)

Generally speaking honesty is great - but if you want to stay competitive in business you have to learn not to be completely transparent to the world.

Otherwise with this "loser" attitude (no offence to anyone) I should have put down many paid gigs for feeling not good enough, either beacuse the music required was stylistically new to me or for the lack of proper technical means.

I the past I did paid work with Garageband and turned out to be great! If I told my clients I was using Garageband I would have never gotten the job.
No need to lie - just don't always tell the whole truth.

end of rant and best wishes to everyone here, especially Christof!


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## germancomponist (Feb 18, 2013)

Christof @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Okay, i will try to explain in my average english, hopefully someone understands what I mean:
> 
> I have a classically trained background, cello studies and lots of orchestral performances, (nothing can beat the experience of sitting in the middle of a big orchestra performing a Brahms symphony).
> So I can say that I am used to the sound of an authentic, real orchestra.
> ...







> Did anybody else experience issues like that in his own workflow?
> 
> Christof



Absolutely. You are 100% right! The same here very often! I hate this!


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## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

> Christof, I don't mean to sound arrogant either and I apologize if I am spoiling your thread, which I feel is asking for a very tech-savvy reply.



Lupez, I meant to say that I sounded arrogant, not you ( my comment with the directors and the real orchestra).
Well yes, the comment by HZ on my reel made me proud of my work, for sure, but even then I am not completely satisfied with my work, I am a good composer (arrogance again) but I know that there are better ones out there.I just try to be the best Christof Unterberger in the world, and I feel that I have to improve to reach this goal.
That said I would also mention that this forum is full of good composers, there is a board called PROMOTE YOURSELF, I am sure directors would seek there first.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 18, 2013)

2 last thoughts:

- sometimes by focusing on little details, small noises in samples, sucking sounds on string lines, we miss out on the big picture: melody, harmony, rhythm, arrangement, timbre.

- directors don't go to forums to find composers; they ask their friends/contacts for names.


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## Markus S (Feb 18, 2013)

Well, Mr. Lupez, I couldn't disagree more with you.

I do not mean this in a disrespectful way, but I think it would do yourself some good to admit your weaknesses to yourself and recognize that anyone - ANYONE - has these.

Being limited by technology is inherited nature of it - technology brings possibilities and limits. I would even say limits are part - a vital part - of the creative process.

You are limited by the possibilities of a cello, but also get ideas by its possibilities. Of COURSE everyone here is limited by what samples can do and what not. But I do not think it is a problem, as I said, you are equally limited by the possibilities of a real orchestra, a vocal ensemble, a guitar or a kazoo. If everything is possible, well where would you start?

With this said, there is no way that admitting weaknesses in general - and technical limits are not part of that - is a "loser attitude" or however you put that. Have you ever thought that there might be courage and strength behind it? When I talk to my clients about hard times I have - you would be surprised they do not switch to another "winner composer" - but they start talking about problems "they" have, some of them quite similar to mine actually, that brings us a bit closer.

So, relax, all is good.


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## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

Here is just an example of how a sample library influenced my work.
I sat down and loaded the Vienna Imperial with some Lexicon reverb, and I loved the sound at this moment so much that it inspired me to play something VERY simple.
With a super-over-produced-multi timbral tempo synced instant Hollywood sounding library I would have written something completely different.Probably an action cue that 
is a weak HZ copy.
What I mean is that sample libraries are instruments that have limitations but they also can be an inspiration like a real acoustic instrument.
https://soundcloud.com/christof-unterberger/farewell


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## SweenyNickat (Feb 18, 2013)

I sometimes have similar problems within my composing process. And I think everyone can subscribe this.

But this does not always have to be negative. It's good to be aware of all the limitations of your sample libraries. You will know exactly what you can do and what you can't do with your sample and thereby you can bring your sounds to the highest possible level and will not fail because you stumble over one silly, unexpected thing that does not work in your whole piece. It sucks to lose time and a great idea!

So be perfect in what you are able to do and be aware of what you can't do, and you will achieve your best results! 

And yes, honesty rocks!! 

Best,
Yannick


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## mverta (Feb 18, 2013)

Yeah, Lupez's suggestion is the formula for failure. This is the place to expose your weaknesses, get good criticism, ask for help, and improve your craft. Hans says nice things about my work too, but those are just moments - wonderful as they may be. A long career is built upon improvement and growth, and that comes from continual learning, and that comes from being honest about one's work and seeking more input.

Get away from the limited samples, and return to composing in your mind. Write at the piano, and force your inner ear to hear the music - it knows no limitations.

_Mike


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## Vartio (Feb 18, 2013)

I have a sort of similar feeling about the limitations of samples. but after enough screwing around you finally start to adjust your workflow to get around the issue.

I've gotten over the limitations of samples by starting with a pianosketch. it feels really natural to write that way since it doesn't sound anywhere near the final product and in that it forces you to use your imagination to sculpt the sound into the final thing. after you have a compositionally interesting result you can start to realize it with samples. figuring out different ways to get the musical ideas across and combat the limitations your sounds have. it takes a while but it doesn't break the flow of creativity since the main ideas are already on the pianosketch. its all about forcing your self to work in a more linear fashion. just leave the production/mockup worries to after the compositional aspects are handled.

...that is when i dont feel lazy and just bang on the keyboard and expect some beautiful music to come out of the speakers. :D


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## Lupez (Feb 18, 2013)

Since I am new on this board I have no problem to be proven wrong...the atmosphere here is wonderful and very chatty / familiar, with plenty of enjoyable and educated people.

only let me say that for my own nature (but again, I may be wrong) I would avoid putting my composer signature / url under a topic where I plea for help from fellows and peers for a matter that involves my personal skills - call it professionalism, ego, self esteem or whatever.

I would either write under alias (as I do for now, because I am a beginner at orchestration and samples in general) or avoid using certain expressions that underline lack of confidence.
Putting your full name and URL in your signature implies self promotion, and the two clash horrendously in my view.


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## ryans (Feb 18, 2013)

Yes I have the same sort of problems often, Christof.

I find the thing I miss the most using samples is the collaborative process. Working with talented musicians definitely adds additional layers of creativity...

Ryan


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## Marius Masalar (Feb 18, 2013)

I think that this is probably one of the most important subjects for those of us working with virtual instruments, so thank you for opening up the discussion.

When it comes to Gear Acquisition Syndrome, I think Ned is 100% correct to point out that we get increasingly trapped in a mentality that forces us to miss the forest for the trees. On the face of it, it seems ridiculous to think that we feel more creatively limited the more diversity of tools we have at our disposal, and yet it certainly seems to feel that way sometimes.

Personally, I think it's a matter of perspective to some degree. I don't think of it as being a creative limitation — after all, nothing you can purchase (except drugs, I guess) can affect your inner creative energy. All of this is on the more superficial layer that allows us to communicate that creativity. I see it as us being daunted by the vast realm of sonic possibilities we each have in our arsenals now — which one communicates our creativity best? Most authentically?

Someone who is traditionally trained and focused on the pursuit of "realism" will quickly become frustrated. Samples cannot yet sound like a real orchestra in all situations, so we either learn to write "around" the limitations of the samples, or we learn to ignore the pursuit of "realism" in favour of musical integrity.

I lean toward the latter myself, but there's much to be said about the former. Sometimes the best way to start a new project is to set boundaries for what sonic tools you will make use of; creativity is often spurred by limitations, and when you set those boundaries yourself, then you are able to guide the creative energy in whatever direction you choose. 

With that in mind, buying more samples or new synths becomes about equipping yourself to set precise boundaries within which you allow your creativity to flourish for each new musical challenge. Overcoming those challenges helps us grow.

I'd also just like to mention that I'm very much in agreement with Ned and Mike here on the subject of your coming forth to discuss this. If honesty and transparency are bad for business then I for one am happy to be a "loser".


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## Markus S (Feb 18, 2013)

Lupez @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Since I am new on this board I have no problem to be proven wrong...the atmosphere here is wonderful and very chatty / familiar, with plenty of enjoyable and educated people.
> 
> only let me say that for my own nature (but again, I may be wrong) I would avoid putting my composer signature / url under a topic where I plea for help from fellows and peers for a matter that involves my personal skills - call it professionalism, ego, self esteem or whatever.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't it be more the other way round? Not putting your name there shows a lack of self confidence and self esteem?

You CAN put your real name there, the world won't stop, nor the course of history, nor will it affect your career in any way.

I am proving this by saying, with my real name and my signature attached (self promotion) that midi programming is a pain in the ass. It's an abomination to music and I have yet to hear one 100% sampled based production (including my own) that does move me in any way.


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## germancomponist (Feb 18, 2013)

Mathazzar @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> I'd also just like to mention that I'm very much in agreement with Ned and Mike here on the subject of your coming forth to discuss this. If honesty and transparency are bad for business then I for one am happy to be a "loser".



+1


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 18, 2013)




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## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

> I would either write under alias (as I do for now, because I am a beginner at orchestration and samples in general) or avoid using certain expressions that underline lack of confidence.
> Putting your full name and URL in your signature implies self promotion, and the two clash horrendously in my view.



Dear Lupez,
after reading this I have to tell you again that this forum is not a place for self promotion.There are other places for that, Youtube, Facebook, Linkedin etc.
This forum is so great and popular because one helps another, from absolute beginners up to top composers who score two blockbusters per year.
I would NEVER write under an alias or hide my signature, because this would mean that I pretend to be someone.
A signature here is an information for other composers, not for producers, directors or agents, this is NOT the place to get potential jobs.I have nothing to hide, I know that I am good in what I do, but I also know that I have to improve.Is that a shame?Should I hide my identity because I want to share a little problem?Are we humans or superheroes?
Back to HZ(because you started to mention him earlier), I remember him saying somewhere that he is waiting days or weeks for inspiration and suddenly he has this tiny little melody.
He also said that he is a bad player but a good programmer.Human or superhero?We know the answer.
Let me tell you a short story:
Some months ago one of the most successful german film producers called me, he stumbled upon my music and he wanted to have a coffee with me.
Some weeks later we met, had a nice chat, then he told me that he might have a very interesting feature film for me to score.I told him honestly that I am very thankful but I never scored a feature film before and it might be risky to hire me for the job because I have not enough experience.He told me that I shouldn't worry, all will be fine, he knows my music and we will find a good solution.
End of the story.

So I will resume: I am a good composer, I do networking, I have won some quite big composition awards, people are happy when they listen to my music, I am not perfect, I have to learn and improve a lot, there are many better ones out there, but I am proud of what I do.

Christof


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## Lupez (Feb 18, 2013)

that's excellent Christof, I root for your career!

before replying to this topic I had read your other topic where you mention you are out of business , the HZ comment (I watch him closely) etc, and after listening to your showreel I thought: "how's this possible? there must be something wrong here, this guys' good and he's not working? what sets him from those who are?"
believe me if I say I really felt for you because I am a songwriter and I know how it feels to be into this.

so with this in mind I bumped into this other thread of yours and realized that perhaps the reason you aren't as successful as you deserve laid in some wrong attitude towards your work, or lack of self confidence if you wish.
I don't know, perhaps I should have just shut up in the first place, but my spirit took over my reasoning, I felt like you needed some boost to your self awareness and I'd be glad if I contributed ever so slightly.

as I mentioned earlier, I did several paid works for international brands with Garageband and a bunch of apple loops in my recent past, so I would never blame my libraries for not getting it right - most of the times the limitations are just in our minds.

best wishes!
Federico


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## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

Thanks for understanding Lupez!


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## Justus (Feb 18, 2013)

Lupez, think about it again!
We are not talking about some newbie, it's Christof Unterberger!

Christof, good luck BTW, I feel your pain!


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## Christof (Feb 18, 2013)

> Lupez, think about it again!
> We are not talking about some newbie, it's Christof Unterberger!
> Christof, good luck BTW, I feel your pain!


Stop it Justus, don't exaggerate, we are all equal here!
Actually I don't feel pain, just some limitations, thats all, but thanks for the encouragement!

I LOVE what mverta said, so true, thanks for reminding me:


> Write at the piano, and force your inner ear to hear the music - it knows no limitations.


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## KEnK (Feb 19, 2013)

Lupez @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> ...after listening to your showreel I thought: "how's this possible? there must be something wrong here, this guys' good and he's not working? what sets him from those who are?"...


This question makes me wonder how long you've been in the music business.
Ability and/or quality have absolutely nothing to do with how much "work" one gets.

As to the question of samples limiting creativity-

Being fairly Old School, (and having returned to midi after about a 10 year hiatus),
I find the technology utterly amazing. 
Sample technology opens things for me creatively and realistically that I wouldn't have imagined back in the 90's when I stared using midi.

I do find however that there seems to be a profound lack of imagination running rampant throughout the Art of Music these days.
Why that may be is another discussion.

But I definitely don't feel limited by the available tools- quite the contrary.
I find the tools to be Liberating.

k


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## Lupez (Feb 19, 2013)

KEnK @ Tue Feb 19 said:


> Lupez @ Mon Feb 18 said:
> 
> 
> > ...after listening to your showreel I thought: "how's this possible? there must be something wrong here, this guys' good and he's not working? what sets him from those who are?"...
> ...



my point exactly.
often, it's not the quality of the work that lacks, but rather the lack of confidence or awareness of one's achievements, and in the end it's what separates those who make it from those who don't.

I pursued a career as performing artist for many years without realizing that my biggest limit was my attitude, or rather the wrong perception of myself and my abilities: most of the times after a gig I would get complimented by most, while I was the only one who would walk away unhappy of the performance, because I felt I hadn't been good enough for my "standards".

it's hard to be successful when you're competing against yourself - your public image can make wonders or total damage of your career, and if you feel you aren't good enough, it shows.

now I would really like to give poor Christof a break! 

PS I think the advice of composing on the piano instead of using samples is great


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## Christof (Feb 19, 2013)

> This question makes me wonder how long you've been in the music business.



About 6 years now (film music business)



> now I would really like to give poor Christof a break!



:wink: I am not poor and I don't need a break, today I just tried to overcome my sample limitations:https://soundcloud.com/christof-unterberger/dark-light
Kind of self therapy maybe.


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## dcoscina (Feb 19, 2013)

mverta @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> Yeah, Lupez's suggestion is the formula for failure. This is the place to expose your weaknesses, get good criticism, ask for help, and improve your craft. Hans says nice things about my work too, but those are just moments - wonderful as they may be. A long career is built upon improvement and growth, and that comes from continual learning, and that comes from being honest about one's work and seeking more input.
> 
> Get away from the limited samples, and return to composing in your mind. Write at the piano, and force your inner ear to hear the music - it knows no limitations.
> 
> _Mike



I totally agree. I find composing in Sibelius or some other notation program to be a great starting point (or end point if the work is going to be performed by real musicians). It strips away the production element that can be endemic to working with samples and DAWs because we can get caught up in the sonic impact and not the musicality. 

Notation programs allow the composer to focus on melody, shaping lines, harmonies, orchestration, rhythm, all the fundamental components of music and less about the realism of the samples because no notation program really boasts an amazingly real sample set anyhow. It strips away the artifice.

I work on NOTION for ipad quite a lot lately as it's almost as direct as me sketching ideas on manuscript at a piano. I later develop it with DP and various sample libs. At least for my orchestral stuff. Jazz is different and so is electronica.


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## PMortise (Feb 19, 2013)

Mathazzar @ Mon Feb 18 said:


> I think that this is probably one of the most important subjects for those of us working with virtual instruments, so thank you for opening up the discussion.
> 
> When it comes to Gear Acquisition Syndrome, I think Ned is 100% correct to point out that we get increasingly trapped in a mentality that forces us to miss the forest for the trees. On the face of it, it seems ridiculous to think that we feel more creatively limited the more diversity of tools we have at our disposal, and yet it certainly seems to feel that way sometimes.
> 
> ...


I get G.A.S., occasionally. :wink:


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## George Caplan (Feb 19, 2013)

attitude is very important. theres a lot of sub standard music in the media out there thats been bought and paid for. a lot is to do with attitude from both buyer and seller and the way they see themselves.

btw is notion good and easy and quick to use?


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## Lupez (Feb 19, 2013)

Very cool exercise. First section very Zimmeresque, then Williamesque, then a bit of Silvestri perhaps. But I am really ranting here...
Can I ask what libraries were involved? I like the sound a lot.
Waiting for Dark Light Rises


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## Peter Alexander (Feb 19, 2013)

> Did anybody else experience issues like that in his own workflow?



Christof - yes, and you're right! I can verify your findings because I benchmark my libraries (including the Vienna Cube) to see what the samples do. I also teach this to those going through Writing For Strings, Visual Orchestration, et al.

The 5 questions I ask are:

1. What DO the samples do?

2. What DON'T the samples do?

3. What CAN the samples do?

4. What CAN'T the samples do well?

5. What do I have to learn to get them to do what I want them to do?

It takes a bit to answer these questions. But once answered, and if you're doing an all electronic realization of your score, you at least know the devices that work best electronically, and which, to use an American term, _fizzle_.


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## Christof (Feb 20, 2013)

Good thoughts Peter.
Here is an example of my so called limitations:
In the piece Dark Light I used the VSL clarinet in the lyrical part, in my head I heard an oboe, but it didn't sound so good so I took the clarinet which is much smoother.I also own the Vienna Cube, but here the library decided my instrumentation.


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## Christof (Feb 20, 2013)

> Can I ask what libraries were involved? I like the sound a lot.



Cinematic strings, Albion I, Cinebrass, VSL.All mixed together in Logic.


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 20, 2013)

Listened to Dark Light. Very cool! If I was a film maker, I would hire you.


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