# Which orchestral library for the start?



## Voider (Sep 26, 2016)

Hi! I am thinking about getting my first orchestral library. While I like classical orchestration too, I am mainly interested in modern styles like hybrid- and filmscoring.

Of course great would be a library that does the split between both, but within my budget-range that is probably not possible. I want to maximum spend around 300-400 bucks I think. I "know" that VSL for instance provides a much wider range of instruments, but doesnt have the punch/power as for example Albion One has for epic scoring.

On my list at the moment are:
Albion One
Cinesymphony Lite
Project Sam OE 1

Which of those would you recommend to me, and why?
If there are other libraries that come to your mind, feel free
to tell me a bit about it.


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## Nils Neumann (Sep 26, 2016)

Orchestral Tools Ark 1 is worth checking.
If I had to start from scratch, I would go for Albion One or Ark 1. 
OE 1 is a bit old, and I really miss the different mic positions, but also a decent library.
Can`t say anything to Cinesymphony lite, don't own it.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 26, 2016)

You can't go wrong with Albion One. It's great for orchestral style and hybrid scoring too. It has that punch. I'm using it a lot, even though I have Berlin Strings, BWW, HB, etc. I'm using its Stephenson's Steam Band a lot too for hybrid stuff. Another recommendation would be Orchestral Tools Metropolis Ark 1. There's nothing quite like it. One of the best purchases I've made.


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## Voider (Sep 26, 2016)

Yeah I like the sound of Metropolis Ark 1, but it goes from mf to fff, so it is not very usable for "normal" film scoring.
Maybe not versatile enough as first library.


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## Zookes (Sep 26, 2016)

Albion has loose and subtle feeling. Metropolis Ark has tight and big feeling. You will maybe not find the do-everything library at this budget. 

Easy choice is Composer Cloud for Hollywood thingers, as it is least expensive option and covers most use-cases. 
But will not ever recommend Hollywood for full purchase tho! Rent for some time, use how needed, find better later.


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## SoNowWhat? (Sep 26, 2016)

Nils Neumann said:


> Orchestral Tools Ark 1 is worth checking.
> If I had to start from scratch, I would go for Albion One or Ark 1.
> OE 1 is a bit old, and I really miss the different mic positions, but also a decent library.
> Can`t say anything to Cinesymphony lite, don't own it.


Think OE has been recently updated. I'm no expert though as I don't own it. It was on my shortlist but ended up going with Albion One. Never been sorry. It's got some very useful sounds and some beautiful ones too. There are odd quirks but they're not common.


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## JohnG (Sep 26, 2016)

Given your budget and what you are looking for, why not consider East West? You could either get the Silver or Gold Hollywood orchestra package or look into the subscription model, called Composer Cloud, that gives access to their entire set of libraries. There is a student version of Composer Cloud as well that is very inexpensive. The sounds are excellent and cover a wide range.

I'm an enormous fan of Spitfire too -- I bought practically their whole orchestral line -- but if you want to compose for each individual instrument, the Albion series is not exactly that.

Given your price and musical objectives, East West might makes sense (soundsonline.com)

[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## Voider (Sep 26, 2016)

I have read a lot of bad things about iLok, plus the gold versions of eastwest stuff only gives access to one mic position - Albion One has 4 mics.

The subscription model is no option since I want to build my own library and not just rent instruments,
that I don't own after spending several hundred bucks into after one or two years.

Referring to cinesamples: Being able to solo out specific instruments is a really nice feature, but having better percussion at albion one, hmm..


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## dcoscina (Sep 26, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Think OE has been recently updated. I'm no expert though as I don't own it. It was on my shortlist but ended up going with Albion One. Never been sorry. It's got some very useful sounds and some beautiful ones too. There are odd quirks but they're not common.


OE1 and 2 have recently been updated and I think offer a little more variety across the orchestra, choirs compared to Albion or Ark (i own them both). 

If you want a true orchestra with all sections, yeah I'd also recommend EW Hollywood Orchestra Silver. Tremendous bang for the buck and Play 5 is solid on my older Mac Pro so it should be good for you.


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## wst3 (Sep 26, 2016)

I have Albion One and Orchestral Essential 1 - they are fantastic libraries with a LOT of content. I'm not sure, even now, if I could choose one over the other.

However, there are a couple of factors you haven't discussed yet (kudos for giving us an idea of budget!):
1) how do you like to work - broad brush strokes or details? If you think in terms of individual parts I think you may find libraries like Albion and OE to be a little bit frustrating. It is an entirely different way of thinking, and one I still haven't grasped completely... although I continue to work on it.
2) what are you writing? Both Albion and OE seem (to me anyway) geared towards larger more "epic" tracks, and that's not a complaint, just an observation. If you want to write in other styles you may still be better served by a library with individual instruments.

I wouldn't get too excited about having "every" articulation - sure it's cool, but if you are just getting your feet wet with virtual orchestras is can be a deep dark black hole of time. As long as you have shorts and longs covered you can do an awful lot. You can always expand later to add additional instruments and articulations.

You probably can't make a catastrophic error here, but if you fine tune your goals here you might be able to make a better choice - if that makes sense.


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## Prockamanisc (Sep 26, 2016)

I think there is a large generation of us that started with EWQL Symphonic Library. For the price and completeness, you can't beat it. Same goes for Hollywood Orchestra, it's commonly on sale for around $600- that is INSANE. In the VI world, spending an extra $200 seems insignificant if you're getting the right product.


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## Voider (Sep 26, 2016)

@wst3: You're probably right with that if I need some additional articulations, I would go for a specific new instrument. While we're on it.. cinesymphony lite only has 1/8 notes, thats a big disadvantage, isn't it?
Or I did read the product description wrong.

I think I want to have the ability to do both - to do epic hybrid scoring, or just emotional slower film-score.
Albion one seems to be able to do both? This is an old Zelda track from snes times in albion one, I really like it: 

@EWQL stuff: I really don't know about that, mainly because of iLok. I read from not just a few people how iLok just block them from their stuff, just because there were bugs recognizing the licenses and that the support then replied super slow, so people couldn't work their libraries over days.


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## erica-grace (Sep 26, 2016)

Do you really want to get a section library like Albion if you are just starting out? Common sense says no.

"I have read a lot of bad things about iLok,"

There are many people who do not like iLok, that causes them to say certain things. If you werent on such a budget, I would say go for something else. But as the saying goes - beggars can't be choosers. Honestly, you do not have the budget to say "I don't want an iLok because some other people don't like it. You should really go for EW, and then move on when your budget allows.


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## Prockamanisc (Sep 26, 2016)

My two responses to that are as follows: 1) I've had my iLok for 6 years and I've never experienced a problem with it. I also don't personally know anyone who's had a problem with it. The chances of there being a problem are slim to none, but yes, when a problem occurs, those people will definitely take to the message boards and review sites. 2) If you stick with this, inevitably you're going to use an iLok, whether it be for a plugin, another library, etc. (Slate Digital, Sonnox, Izotope, Soundtoys, Pro Tools, etc.). You'll be much better off if you're not afraid to use one.


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## mc_deli (Sep 26, 2016)

You don't need a physical iLok. You can use a machine license, just software.

Get Albion One. You won't regret it. You will regret starting to buy sample libraries when you look at your credit card statements in 18 months time, but you won't regret One.


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## Voider (Sep 26, 2016)

"But as the saying goes - beggars can't be choosers."

Why couldn't I? There are lots of interesting libraries for Kontakt, it's not like there is EW or nothing.

But since it is so often recommended here: What does EW-Hollywood Orchestra or which you would recommend have, what Albion One or Project Sam OE does not have? (Except that it lacks of 4 different mic positions that Albion One provides and that I am not sure if it is capable of "louder" hybrid-scoring)


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## Nils Neumann (Sep 26, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> Do you really want to get a section library like Albion if you are just starting out? Common sense says no.



Can you go more into that?

For starters a full orchestra in single instruments could be overwhelming, sections narrow it down to Strings, Brass, Woodwinds and Percussion. So you don't need that much knowledge about orchestration and specific instruments and just start with writing. Then, after getting familiar with the orchestra, you could move on with a library like EW Hollywood Orchestra. Thats just my philosophy


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## Nils Neumann (Sep 26, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Think OE has been recently updated. I'm no expert though as I don't own it. It was on my shortlist but ended up going with Albion One. Never been sorry. It's got some very useful sounds and some beautiful ones too. There are odd quirks but they're not common.



They just added some sound design and I think some bugs where fixed. Nothing special. Albion One replaced OE 1 for me.


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## Patrick (Sep 26, 2016)

When I started out, I bought NI Komplete together with the discontinued Albion 1 and HybridTwo's Project Alpha. I'm coming from a band/guitar background so most likely writing for individual sections would have been overwhelming to me. With this setup I managed to get some gigs and make some money with the tracks produced and then I started adding more detailed libraries as I slowly learned how to orchestrate (still terrible^^). So I'd say starting out with a library similar to Albion One can work out well depending on your own preferences, background and skills.


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## Thomas A Booker (Sep 26, 2016)

I started with Albion One and am glad I did. It doesn't fill every niche of course, but what it does is good, and I think it's a great starting package all round.

I haven't got experience with the other two libraries, so they could be just as good for all I know. All I can say is I'm pretty happy with Albion.


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## Voider (Sep 26, 2016)

So there are no advantages for Hollywood Orchestra by EWQL in comparison to Albion One?
The shop page doesn't show what's included in detail and there is not even one single overview video about it on youtube.

I don't know what this shall tell me..


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## Zookes (Sep 26, 2016)

Voider said:


> But since it is so often recommended here: What does EW-Hollywood Orchestra or which you would recommend have, what Albion One or Project Sam OE does not have? (Except that it lacks of 4 different mic positions that Albion One provides and that I am not sure if it is capable of "louder" hybrid-scoring)


Hollywood Gold mics have OK sound. Not so wet to be unmixable, not so dry to be sterile. Very much better compared to QLSO.


Most important feature of EW libraries is Composer Cloud, I think. Subscribe for 1 month, find what is liked or not liked, leave for any convenience. No pressure. No others do this.

This problem of sample libraries is lack of available demos and no refunds or license transfer also. Few developers allow even one and never have I seen the both. It is bad and terrible for us who do not have friends with such expensive products already to test for free. All purchases of this nature is like gambling !

So any purchase being gambling like this, it is wise I think to try most accommodating and least expensive services and products for this first time. Next time, because of your using already similar products, you will have better ideas for the features desired in your sample libraries and will shop better also.


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## Zookes (Sep 26, 2016)

Voider said:


> So there are no advantages for Hollywood Orchestra by EWQL in comparison to Albion One?
> The shop page doesn't show what's included in detail and there is not even one single overview video about it on youtube.
> 
> I don't know what this shall tell me..


Hollywood Orchestra is this bundle to include many separate products. You will find only details from those products individually - Hollywood Strings, Hollywood Brass, Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds, Hollywood Orchestral Percussion.

Very much information available for Strings and Brass. Less so for Woodwinds and Percussion.


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## Voider (Sep 26, 2016)

Zookes said:


> Hollywood Orchestra is this bundle to include many separate products. You will find only details from those products individually - Hollywood Strings, Hollywood Brass, Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds, Hollywood Orchestral Percussion.
> 
> Very much information available for Strings and Brass. Less so for Woodwinds and Percussion.



A bundle or just parts of this libraries?


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## Fleer (Sep 26, 2016)

Albion + One and EastWest Hollywood.


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## ModalRealist (Sep 26, 2016)

Voider said:


> A bundle or just parts of this libraries?



No, the complete libraries, in the edition of the Orchestra package name (Silver/Gold/Diamond).


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## Zookes (Sep 26, 2016)

Voider said:


> A bundle or just parts of this libraries?


Bundle. It is like QLSO was at a time many separate products also.

Editions like silver, gold, diamond / platinum restrict different features. Silver restricts microphones and articulations, gold restricts microphones, diamond / platinum restricts nothing.


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## Voider (Sep 27, 2016)

What's the difference between Symphonic and Hollywood Orchestra by EWQL and do they have solo instruments? (I guess so since they were single full packages before)


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## Arbee (Sep 27, 2016)

If I was starting again, with Play 5 now out and getting rave reviews, I would seriously consider EW for the musical preferences you describe.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 27, 2016)

Fleer said:


> Albion + One and EastWest Hollywood.



This is actually a really good suggestion. First you could get Albion One, with which you'll get really far with composing both orchestral and hybrid music. Later, when you need separate sections, you could get Hollywood Orchestra. With Play 5, the whole orchestra is very attractive option. And even after getting a section library, I'm sure you would still use Albion One.



Voider said:


> What's the difference between Symphonic and Hollywood Orchestra by EWQL and do they have solo instruments? (I guess so since they were single full packages before)



Symphonic Orchestra is an older sample library, and Hollywood Orchestra a newer one. Hollywood Orchestra has some solos in Hollywood Brass, but not any solo strings. In my opinion, if you have to choose between those too, get Hollywood Orchestra. I have Symphonic Orchestra, but I don't use it much, since I Hollywood Strings and Brass are great. I use it mainly for its percussion, but with Hollywood Percussion, you would get a newer and better percussion library.


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## Fleer (Sep 27, 2016)

And there's Hollywood Solo Violin and Cello (and Harp) for solo strings.


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## dcoscina (Sep 27, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> This is actually a really good suggestion. First you could get Albion One, with which you'll get really far with composing both orchestral and hybrid music. Later, when you need separate sections, you could get Hollywood Orchestra. With Play 5, the whole orchestra is very attractive option. And even after getting a section library, I'm sure you would still use Albion One.
> 
> 
> 
> Symphonic Orchestra is an older sample library, and Hollywood Orchestra a newer one. Hollywood Orchestra has some solos in Hollywood Brass, but not any solo strings. In my opinion, if you have to choose between those too, get Hollywood Orchestra. I have Symphonic Orchestra, but I don't use it much, since I Hollywood Strings and Brass are great. I use it mainly for its percussion, but with Hollywood Percussion, you would get a newer and better percussion library.


Hollywood Orchestra also benefits from superior legato. EWQLSO had that "Qlegato" which didn't sound very natural compared to interval sampling.


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## Quasar (Sep 27, 2016)

No love here for Versilian Studios Chamber Orchestra Pro as a starter virtual orchestra (currently on sale for $149)? This + one of the ensemble-based libraries maybe?


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## dcoscina (Sep 27, 2016)

Tugboat said:


> No love here for Versilian Studios Chamber Orchestra Pro as a starter virtual orchestra (currently on sale for $149)? This + one of the ensemble-based libraries maybe?


um. From what I've heard it doesn't really do much for me at least.


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## Voider (Sep 27, 2016)

I don't own kontakt 5 yet. Gonna grab it while winter when hopefully there will be a 50% crossgrade discount again.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Sep 27, 2016)

Tugboat said:


> No love here for Versilian Studios Chamber Orchestra Pro as a starter virtual orchestra (currently on sale for $149)? This + one of the ensemble-based libraries maybe?


I think thats a great idea since i feel like it sounds quite good. but you need full kontakt to run it. But if you combine VSCO with Sonokinetic Da Capo this might give you a quite affordable orchestral palette.
Anyways - EW Hollywood Orchestra Gold has been on Sale for 330€ a few weeks ago. That's going to happen again. At at that price point there is actually no way you can get anything better.

What has EW Hollywood Orchestra that albion has not? Individual sections/Instruments for all sections. More differenciated Articulations for all Sections and not to forget it has a whole group of orchestral insruments that Albion simply does not address: Orchestral Percussion and Mallets.
There's a reason Spitfire is bundling Albion with Percussion, Solo Strings and a harp and calling that bundle "starter pack"


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## Voider (Sep 27, 2016)

rocking.xmas.man said:


> Anyways - EW Hollywood Orchestra Gold has been on Sale for 330€ a few weeks ago. That's going to happen again. At at that price point there is actually no way you can get anything better.



I can get Albion One for 270€ with student discount.



rocking.xmas.man said:


> What has EW Hollywood Orchestra that albion has not? Individual sections/Instruments for all sections. More differenciated Articulations for all Sections and not to forget it has a whole group of orchestral insruments that Albion simply does not address: Orchestral Percussion and Mallets.
> There's a reason Spitfire is bundling Albion with Percussion, Solo Strings and a harp and calling that bundle "starter pack"



Albion has percussion! The Darwin Percussion Ensemble



What articulations does EWQL stuff have?
Edit: Okay checked them out. I forgot that the packages are just a "bundle" and had a look at the single instrument pages where articulations are mentioned :D


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## nik (Sep 27, 2016)

I personally would suggest u start with the East West Composer Cloud for one year. Thats because in this year you will get deeper into the materia, u will get know more libraries and after using the east west things for some time it will be much clearer to your what u really want. I bought the Hollywood Orchestra when i started and the East West Pianos and Choirs. if i am honest i want to sell most of the stuff now just because i still feel Kontakt is much more user friendly then the Play Engine. Also there are so much newer libraries i would rather buy then the East West stuff ( CSS for Strings, Adventure Brass,etc) I dont use the Symphponic Choirs anymore just beacause Olympus sound that much better.
I feel its a big mistake to spend much money in the beginning when u dont even know whats out there. Better spend some months with the composer cloud and hanging around in the forum and then decide what u want.
What i would suggest:
Strings: CSS
Brass: Adventure Brass
Percussion: Hollywood Percussion but if u do Epic stuff then there are some good alternatives, started a thread about this the other day...
Woodwinds: i still use The Hollywood Winds but there is probably some better stuff by now

And just for the record: Albion One and Metropolis Ark1 really are cool libraries,i have them both. MA1 is just about Epic stuff and hard to use on other things. I use Albion One for layering a lot.
Hope that helped
Greets
nik


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## Voider (Sep 27, 2016)

I feel the same way that Kontakt is more attractive to me than play, plus I have some kontakt libraries already - it's nice to have all at one place.

I have a real odd feeling about composer cloud. It advertises you to "work with the same high quality tools as the pros" and then only gives you access to one mic position and 16-bit samples, plus for the price of subscribing for one year, I could already have my own first library. That being said, having a "limited" library like albion one with strings, brass, woodwinds and percussion for the beginning would maybe the better way round. Because I learn to be good with less and how it works and can expand from there, instead of having too many options for the beginning which makes it harder to focus on one thing.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 27, 2016)

Voider said:


> Albion has percussion! The Darwin Percussion Ensemble



It's more for hybrid, epic, blockbuster scoring. If you start composing orchestral music, with a modern orchestral setup, you will need an orchestral percussion library, which Albion One doesn't have. But still you can go far just with Albion One. Even though I have other libraries like Berlin Strings, Hollywood Strings, Hollywood Brass, BWW, etc, I still go back to Albion One. Some purchases I have regretted, but not Albion One.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Sep 27, 2016)

Voider said:


> Albion has percussion! The Darwin Percussion Ensemble


yeah.... but I would not like to miss a celeste, timpani, orchestral snares, vibraphone, marimba, mark tree, wood blocks...
I think you see what I mean. I do have albion legacy - i actually started with albion 1, solo strings and spitfire percussion - back then I was qualifying for student discount myself but there was no starter pack bundle.


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## Voider (Sep 27, 2016)

Well, I doubt that the percussion section in EWQL is so well that it beats a single perc. library, which I would get then anyway separate. I already own heavoycities ensemble drums, though I don't think it's that good.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 27, 2016)

Voider said:


> I have read a lot of bad things about iLok, plus the gold versions of eastwest stuff only gives access to one mic position - Albion One has 4 mics.
> 
> The subscription model is no option since I want to build my own library and not just rent instruments,
> that I don't own after spending several hundred bucks into after one or two years.
> ...



Hollywood Orchestra isn't as easy to pick up as Albion ONE, that's for sure. I'm a big fan of Spitfire and own both the original Albion as well as ONE. However, there's absolutely no dispute that once you've become proficient at both Hollywood Orchestra and Albion ONE, you will be able to do heaps more with the former. Hollywood Orchestra is a complete orchestral collection and Albion is a sketching ensemble library.

I don't understand why iLok is so hated while Steinberg's eLicenser dongle is never mentioned. They're both dongles you can plug into a USB hub and forget about. And with Play 5, HO is more appealing than ever. But make sure your rig is powerful enough to run it first, else it's not worth it.


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## dcoscina (Sep 27, 2016)

Agreed. And with the iLok Machine license option you can put the license on your HD and forget about it. Unless you need to transfer it to another computer. 

I have had more troubles with the eLicensor that Steinberg and VSL use by comparison.


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## Voider (Sep 27, 2016)

Yeah but I read that iLok wasn't recognizing the licenses on the computer and locked people out of their own libraries for days, so having them saved on my pc doesn't prevent me from that, if it happens.

And my machine should be powerfull enough. Win 10, 8GB Ram, i5-4670 @4x 3,4Ghz.
If memory is too few, I can easy upgrade to 16GB or more, that's really not expensive nowadays.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Sep 27, 2016)

Voider said:


> I doubt that the percussion section in EWQL is so well that it beats a single perc. library


but... EW Hollywood Orchestra does include a single perc library. Hollywood orchestral percussion. And is is good


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## Zookes (Sep 27, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> Agreed. And with the iLok Machine license option you can put the license on your HD and forget about it. Unless you need to transfer it to another computer.


For the event of hard drive crashing, iLok pretends the license is lost. This is less advantageous compared to broken dongles.

It is bad like Waves licensing.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 27, 2016)

Voider said:


> Yeah but I read that iLok wasn't recognizing the licenses on the computer and locked people out of their own libraries for days, so having them saved on my pc doesn't prevent me from that, if it happens.
> 
> And my machine should be powerfull enough. Win 10, 8GB Ram, i5-4670 @4x 3,4Ghz.
> If memory is too few, I can easy upgrade to 16GB or more, that's really not expensive nowadays.



If I were you I wouldn't worry about iLok. If someone has an issue with it then they voice their opinion to get help, but no one counts the thousands of people (myself included) who breeze by without a problem. It's not worth it buying an inferior library just to avoid that potential hurdle.


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## Voider (Sep 27, 2016)

It's not iLok alone - it also is that there is only one mic position if I don't go diamond for lots of bucks more.
I'm thinking of trying it for just a month via the composer cloud, but really even not sure about that since albion one is really tempting to me and only costs around 270 with student discount.. but being able not to only do hybrid scoring but classical orchestration is a nice thing too.


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## Quasar (Sep 27, 2016)

Voider said:


> It's not iLok alone - it also is that there is only one mic position if I don't go diamond for lots of bucks more.
> I'm thinking of trying it for just a month via the composer cloud, but really even not sure about that since albion one is really tempting to me and only costs around 270 with student discount.. but being able not to only do hybrid scoring but classical orchestration is a nice thing too.



Albion is wonderful. Whatever you subsequently decide to do for a more detailed orchestration option, it's difficult to believe you'd regret an Albion One purchase even if you had to pay full price. The fact that you're eligible for the student discount moves it into (overused cliché alert!) "no-brainer" territory.


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## galactic orange (Sep 27, 2016)

Tugboat said:


> The fact that you're eligible for the student discount moves it into (overused cliché alert!) "no-brainer" territory.


I've purchased so many "no-brainer" deals in the past month I'm beginning to wonder if I've got one.


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## Zookes (Sep 28, 2016)

Voider said:


> It's not iLok alone - it also is that there is only one mic position if I don't go diamond for lots of bucks more.


Other mic positions do not matter so much from Hollywood.
To me Mid and Main sound OK, others being less useful except ambient for more of recorded reverb. Main is from Gold and is best, Mid has many bad edits and glitches ignored still for many years. You will be not missing so much that you cannot mix for yourself by the Main mics and outboard reverb.

Albion mics being much more useful, but overall programmed to not cover so much styles. All slow genres only.

Warning to you: *short *string and brass articulations from both libraries is not so good. Sloppy playing or editing sometimes, dull with no bite usually. Albion shorts being worst of all in sequencing - never before I have heard this terrible ~30ms delays by playing shorts, this happening in some RR cycle so seemingly random. This is so very very VERY bad for live playing and painful for sequencing - you will reset RR by note or CC very much avoiding this.


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## Nils Neumann (Sep 28, 2016)

Voider said:


> I feel the same way that Kontakt is more attractive to me than play, plus I have some kontakt libraries already - it's nice to have all at one place.
> 
> I have a real odd feeling about composer cloud. It advertises you to "work with the same high quality tools as the pros" and then only gives you access to one mic position and 16kHz samples, plus for the price of subscribing for one year, I could already have my own first library. That being said, having a "limited" library like albion one with strings, brass, woodwinds and percussion for the beginning would maybe the better way round. Because I learn to be good with less and how it works and can expand from there, instead of having too many options for the beginning which makes it harder to focus on one thing.


go for albion!


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## Daniel Thomas (Sep 28, 2016)

+1 for Albion here. If this is your first foray into orchestral writing/sequencing, the awesome 'out of the box' sounds will help you realise your ideas quickly, and give you a great platform to start learning the finer details with. 

I'm also a novice in the world of virtual instruments, and even though I studied orchestration in my undergrad, being presented with the megalithic list of instruments and articulations in the EW libraries can feel very overwhelming at first. Simple ensemble patches are a wicked starting point, and if you can get in there in the next few days, Spitfire's 40% student discount is pretty hard to turn down


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2016)

Is there a big difference between 16-bit and 24-bit samples?
I did research and 24-bit should leave way more headroom for mixing,
also 16kHz has a bigger noisefloor which increases with every instrument added.

Eastwest only grants 16-bit samples unless you go diamond,
anyone knows what is inside Albion One? I checked out their website but didn't
found any hint.

And referring to the mic positions: It's not that one would use close or ambient mics only for 100% ambient or close sounds, but mixing them together with different amounts to get the desired sound. So I would not agree with the statement that mid-mics alone are enough.


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2016)

Another Question: http://vstbuzz.com/deals/75-off-solo-strings-bundle-aria-sounds/

LSS Solo Strings Bundle is on sale, 69€ instead of 277€. 
I don't own full kontakt yet but plan to do so when the crossgrade sale comes,
but would it worth to take this library for my purpose too?

Sure I listened to the audio demos, but would be great if someone could tell a bit about it.


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## Thomas A Booker (Sep 28, 2016)

Voider said:


> Is there a big difference between 16kHz and 24kHz samples?
> I did research a bit and 24kHz should leave way more headroom for mixing,
> also 16kHz has a bigger noisefloor which increases with every instrument added.
> 
> ...



I think you mean 16/24 bit rather than KHz. I wouldn't expect the difference to be big enough that it should influence your decision here, especially as you're starting out.


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2016)

Thomas A Booker said:


> I think you mean 16/24 bit rather than KHz. I wouldn't expect the difference to be big enough that it should influence your decision here, especially as you're starting out.



Yes I meant bit, sorry. Well since I want to learn to mix & master by myself and doing whole productions from the start to the end, I want to invest in something that doesn't lack in audio quality in the high end - that's why I ask about the differences. Mabye if I will not benefit from the very beginning from it, I would be probably happy to do so later. But I would like to know some opinions about how important it is.


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## Thomas A Booker (Sep 28, 2016)

If anything the audio quality of the high end would be determined by the sample rate rather than the bit depth (if by "high end" you're referring to the higher frequencies).

I suspect that the difference between 16 and 24 bits on these samples would be hard to notice - but maybe you could ask if anyone here has tried both versions and could give you an opinion.

Personally I'd bet the difference would be subtle enough that it won't affect your ability to mix. (However someone who knows more about how 16 vs 24 bit changes things in terms of mixing may give you a different opinion.) Also bear in mind you're not recording these samples yourself, and the ambient noise of the room in which they were recorded might be large enough that you wouldn't really benefit from a lower noise floor. 

For those reasons, I'd worry more about what the libraries give you in terms of composition - that'll definitely make a tangible difference!


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2016)

Yes you may be right that I am thinking of the wrong things.
I just had a look (again) at cinesymphony lite, it's pretty cool that one can just take the instruments from the ensembles and make them solo by muting the other ones, that adds a lot of flexibility in comparison to albion one.

But the whole library is only 2,5GB which I think will pay for the quality of the samples and it can't hit as hard as albion one do, from what I've heard. Opinions on this?

And yes I still consider EWQL stuff, just soaking up informations now about everything that I consider to put on my short list for the final decision 

Edit: Okay, cinesymphony lite can definitely go >hard<, maybe Albion one just got recorded with bigger ensemble so that it sounds bigger. I am really interested in the comparison between especially these two!


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## Shad0wLandsUK (Sep 28, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> OE1 and 2 have recently been updated and I think offer a little more variety across the orchestra, choirs compared to Albion or Ark (i own them both).
> 
> If you want a true orchestra with all sections, yeah I'd also recommend EW Hollywood Orchestra Silver. Tremendous bang for the buck and Play 5 is solid on my older Mac Pro so it should be good for you.


Are you serious about HW Orchestra Silver?
I had that and Brass and they had next to nothing in them. Now I am on Composer Cloud Plus however, I realise why the Diamond series are the prices they are. Mind blowing sounds. I also have the CineBrass collection from Cinesamples, All the 8DIO strings and some percussion from others.


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## Zookes (Sep 28, 2016)

Voider said:


> Eastwest only grants 16kHz samples unless you go diamond,


This is QLSO only, not Hollywood.
All Hollywood is high bitrate.

EastWest owns now 2 orchestral libraries: Symphonic Orchestra and Hollywood Orchestra. Symphonic has much older design features.

EDIT: incorrect information


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## Scamper (Sep 28, 2016)

Voider said:


> But the whole library is only 2,5GB which I think will pay for the quality of the samples and it can't hit as hard as albion one do, from what I've heard. Opinions on this?



I think the small size of Cinesymphony Lite is less about the quality of the samples, but more for the amount of detail, variety and customizability, that you will get.
Cinesymphony Lite has 2 articulations per ensemble, 6 patches and 1 mic position. Albion ONE has partially more articulations, divided sections, legato instruments (which are huge in size), a lot more extra instruments and sounds, and 4 mic positions.

I have the impression, that Cinesymphony Lite can be big and loud as other Cinesamples libraries, but it can't be as quiet as Albion. So, I at least prefer that dynamic range of Albion.


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2016)

Zookes said:


> This is QLSO only, not Hollywood.
> All Hollywood is high bitrate.
> 
> EastWest owns now 2 orchestral libraries: Symphonic Orchestra and Hollywood Orchestra. Symphonic has much older design features.



Their website says gold is only 16-bit samples.

http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-Strings


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## Zookes (Sep 28, 2016)

Voider said:


> And yes I still consider EWQL stuff, just soaking up informations now about everything that I consider to put on my short list for the final decision
> 
> Edit: Okay, cinesymphony lite can definitely go >hard<, maybe Albion one just got recorded with bigger ensemble so that it sounds bigger. I am really interested in the comparison between especially these two!



For CineSymphony, it is important to know this list:







You will not miss any such features?


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## Zookes (Sep 28, 2016)

Voider said:


> Their website says gold is only 16-bit samples.
> 
> http://www.soundsonline.com/Hollywood-Strings


So it is true! Apologies.


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2016)

Zookes said:


> For CineSymphony, it is important to know this list:
> 
> You will not miss any such features?



Sure I would, I know it also has less articulations than for example Albion One. What is meant by 1/8 notes? It has sustained notes and I think in the piano roll where I programm or play notes into, I can deceide the length.
Mabye it's for staccato or something.

But yeah, any "full orchestra starter library" lacks in something. Albion one has more articulations and mics, but you can't separate solo instruments. EWQL has only one mic, 16 bit samples and I am not sure if it can reach ff-power.


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## bigcat1969 (Sep 28, 2016)

Thoughts from the less knowledgable aka me.

No VSL love?

You can test the VSCO2 and see what you think using the SFZ community edition. 

Odd the mention of delays at the front of shorts. I was just debating to myself how aggressive to be in editing the VSCO2 violin samples to make a VSTi. Sam (who I deeply respect) and I disagree on this. I finally decided to be fairly un-aggressive on the arco / sustain type samples and let them build but be aggressive on the pizzicato and spiccato. It seems to me that when you want a short sound you want an instant burst.

I hang out over at Cakewalk and they seem to be warning against the LSS special. Mediocre seems to be the opinion of the samples and poor customer support the other caveat.

Dangerous forum ground, but tred carefully with ILok in all forms. There was another big set of problems not that long ago. I dislike how much Microsoft seems to think my computer belongs to them, I'm certainly not going to add another master over my computer and another layer of software to slow the computer down. Explained Ilok / showed their page to my buddy who is the IT guy for a school, oh the language he used... The music version of Starforce.


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2016)

To be honest I don't really like the sound of VSCO2, nor the one of LSS and both don't seem to also fit into hybrid scoring and to reach ff-_power_.

Can you explain that with iLok a bit further, and what microsoft has to do with it?


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## tonaliszt (Sep 28, 2016)

Zookes said:


> For CineSymphony, it is important to know this list:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For half the price ($200 with student discount) of the closest competitor, it is a very good option for the money. The ability to solo out instruments allows for more growth in compositional/orchestrational ability than the other standard ensemble libraries. This is something to consider but depends on your goals. The percussion is also very good for the classical/orchestral film score sound.


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## NoamL (Sep 28, 2016)

erica-grace said:


> Do you really want to get a section library like Albion if you are just starting out? Common sense says no.



My first VI was Symphobia! 

I think a sections/ensembles library actually makes a *great* first library. Especially for someone who is new to VIs and DAWs.

Working with sections you can learn the basics of MIDI control & CCs much faster. With fewer instruments to worry about you can experiment and learn about panning, plugin effects, mixing and mastering.

One of the very first pieces I wrote for VIs was just 30 instances of Symphobia. That already was a big mixing challenge for me at the time. It also seriously stressed my first rig, a pitiful 2-core MacbookPro with 4gb RAM. Most users seem to be assuming the OP has unlimited RAM and a great rig. That may not be the case. A lot of these modern libraries (especially the ones with true legato) are still pretty beastly on consumer machines that don't have SSDs or upgraded amounts of RAM.

I think starting with the EW Hollywood Orchestra is a bad idea for a newbie. It will teach you all about PLAY, which no other developer uses; you'll get bogged down auditioning a hundred different instrument options; and you'll build massive songs & templates that you may not yet have the knowledge to control and which your rig may not be able to handle.

Also libraries like Symphobia and Albion will continue to be useful even after you get more advanced libraries. They will always be usable for layering and making a sound even bigger.


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## Voider (Sep 28, 2016)

Well, I am not a newbie to DAWs, mixing or controlling/automating parameters. I am mainly a sounddesigner on synthesizers and create patches from scratch - I know how EQ and compressors work, how to set up envelopes for dynamics in my patches (which would be the expression or volume on the orchestra instruments, depending on the features). That being said, I of course have still to learn a lot about my daw and also about sounddesign, but I don't need to learn the very basics anymore.

The real thing I would need to learn is probably how to set up all instruments in a room so that they all have their right places, how they work well together and of course writing interesting pieces since I'm just in the middle of learning music theory / chord progression.

With limited ensembles (strings, woodwinds & brass) there is not too much going on, with EWQL and let's say 20 different options from ensembles over single instruments, I still could force myself to work at on part at a time or limit the amount of instruments I use for a piece by myself - but having more extra for later when I'm better is a good thing in the first place. But yeah.. play is not as nice as Kontakt, iLok scares me a bit off and the 16-bit thing. But maybe that's all not really a problem.

RAM would be no problem, as said previously I have at the moment 8GB and a decent CPU, and 16GB of RAM nowadays costs around 80 bucks.


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## bigcat1969 (Sep 28, 2016)

Sorry that wasn't to clear. I don't like some of the tracking stuff from Microsoft on Windows 10 and at least the allegations that with Windows 10 software Microsoft doesn't think should be there can be simply deleted or even reported. The whole big brother is watching you thing seems to be creeping in there. So it seems like Microsoft thinks it is the co-owner of my computer.

I view Ilok in the same light. It can literally stop your computer starting up. Plus the company seems prone to glitches and according to some poor customer service. Some folks haven't been able to do anything with a computer over the weekend because ILok wouldn't let them and they couldn't get in touch with customer service. Google it. So again it seems like ILok is part owner of your computer. Now others will tell you this is tinfoil hat stuff from someone who makes the world's cheapest (in more ways than one) instruments for Kontakt and has reasons for wanting everyone to avoid Play/ILok and come to Kontakt. Also I had the ILok software without a dongle stuff on my previous build of the computer and I swear it made it run much slower and I could see files associated with it eating CPU cycles.

End diatribe.

This is a great thread and if I weren't broke and waiting for the Komplete half price sale, I'd be tempted by the Cine stuff. I think it is good to have individual instruments rather than just a set of sections. You can't really solo a string section to get a violin solo and you are gonna want one.


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## Zookes (Sep 28, 2016)

NoamL said:


> My first VI was Symphobia!
> 
> Also libraries like Symphobia and Albion will continue to be useful even after you get more advanced libraries. They will always be usable for layering and making a sound even bigger.


This this this ^^^

Suggestions for Metropolis Ark 1 and Albion are very very good for this reason, and I regret to forget it is how I started also.

Consideration of features must be for usefulness to you and your position now, what you are desiring to play and how you must play. You need a full orchestra because you make mock-ups before recording live playing? You need specific colors and articulations for a style? You maybe just want braaams and such cool sounds?

Choose for this. Choosing for "best bang for buck" does not work here, I think. Very easy to believe one library becomes superior for feature lists, while the reality is maybe you will not be so happy using them.


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## Voider (Sep 29, 2016)

Serious question since LSS is on this hardcore sale (http://vstbuzz.com/deals/75-off-solo-strings-bundle-aria-sounds/):

Do you think LSS and Albion One would work great together, layering up together? I somehow doubt that because Albion is so big and wide (also in reverb), while LSS is very close and absolutely single instruments. But maybe someone has another opinion.


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## Samulis (Sep 29, 2016)

Voider said:


> To be honest I don't really like the sound of VSCO2, nor the one of LSS and both don't seem to also fit into hybrid scoring and to reach ff-_power_.



I think you sum up the basic problem with this entire thread: *different people want different things*.

The way I see it, there are four basic routes you can go with your library choice, with some general examples of each as I see it-
- *Big and Wet *- Spitfire, 8dio
- *Tight and Wet* - Everything EWQL
- *Tight and Dry* - Vienna, to some extent, Sample Modelling
- *Thin and Docile*- Embertone, VSCO 2, most "indie" stuff

For cinematic people of the more hybrid style, you probably want big and wet with small elements of thin and docile. For classical or folk/trad, you probably want tight and dry or tight and wet. For cinematic of a more Romantic style, you probably want tight and wet. Ambient favors thin and docile with perhaps some touches of big and wet.

Companies don't just create products out of nowhere without first thinking very carefully about the brand image and style they want to represent in the product. You can have a very purist harpsichord perfect for Bach, or you could have one with cinematic effects and an arpeggiator/synth engine built in that is right at home in a Zimmer-esque trailer score. You can probably find one that emulates early digital harpsichords for use in certain video game scores.

So keep in mind even if your taste {or budget/attitude/brand/etc.} doesn't quite fit with a certain product, there is probably someone who the product is perfect for out there.

So your perfect library in my mindset would probably be drawn from the Big and Wet category, probably Albion, which was one of your first choices. Sectional and more timbre-based libraries are the calling card of this genre, and solo instruments used in ensemble settings (rather than solo settings) are unusual. It is a style and mindset about texture and emotion, not about form or function. Think about what your goals are and how the library helps you or hinders you from achieving that.

If you want to create hybrid film scores, then don't bother with libraries intended for traditional or purist composers (Vienna everything, GPO, to some extent EWQL and VSCO 2, etc.). Stuff with traditional limitations, classically-based performances, etc. are probably not for you. You may find your final result in an amalgam of unique 'Indie' libraries, such as those by companies such as Embertone. Three excellent sites to search for these products are KVR, KontaktHub, and Sampleism.

This is of course, just my thoughts on the matter. As we all learn, our first choice is often just a transient stepping stone. My first sample library I used was a tiny soundfont I found online, then I stepped up (some more critical minds might argue stepped down) to GPO, then finally to EWQL and eventually on to Spitfire and now, giving back to the cycle by creating my own library in the image I wanted a library to be: VSCO 2. Oddly cycle-of-life, eh? Who knows, maybe 3-5 years from now you will create your own hybrid library. :D


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## Parsifal666 (Sep 30, 2016)

I would recommend East West Composer Cloud, but the Albions often sound pretty useable right out of the box. Go for the East West when your engineering knowledge has built up. Albion One is a fine way to start (as mentioned, Komplete is great too).


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## Morodiene (Sep 30, 2016)

As someone new to VIs, I tried Composer Cloud because I didn't feel I knew enough to be able to make a good decision as to which libraries would be better for my purposes and preferences. I will say that for me, Play is difficult to understand, and the EW tutorial out there on youtube doesn't help because the video portion freezes partway through and you just get the audio. Of course, there's the manual, but that manual plus the manual for the actual software library plus the manual for the DAW and all the basic concepts one needs to have to understand what is being said in the manuals...well, it's pretty daunting.

So I found the EW Gold stuff a bit difficult to get the sound I wanted, not for a lacking in what it can do, but in my knowledge. Maybe go with your gut, which from your posts suggests the Albion One as long as you are OK with its limitations (and they all have them), and work with that for a bit. Don't even worry about layering just yet, either.


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## ghandizilla (Sep 30, 2016)

Too bad they don't edit Albion Legacy anymore: the brass were gorgeous. But I can't recommend Albion ONE . The main downside of Albion ONE is that huuuge 109-piece orchestra : when I look at the walkthroughs, I keep myself wondering. Why? It makes the brass sound synthy, the woods sound nasty (ok, a nice contrabassoony nastyness  ), and the strings biting and sharp. On the other side, the sound is too precise. Little accidents occur in orchestras. (And it comes only with the _shorts _of Albion Legacy...) I concur with many members at 100% on the educational benefits of writing by ensembles, grasping how they blend, being at ease with 'em before going step by step (strings, then brass, then woodwinds) into the depths of the separate sections. But as a sketching orchestra, I'd suggest Cinesymphony LITE, (a) because the sound is more natural, (b) because it contains a true orchestra drumkit with timpani. In short: a solid asset (c) is _has _sustains (d) you can separate solo instruments by saving new patches! Unless you want to do hybrid scores. Then go for Albion ONE


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> As someone new to VIs, I tried Composer Cloud because I didn't feel I knew enough to be able to make a good decision as to which libraries would be better for my purposes and preferences. I will say that for me, Play is difficult to understand, and the EW tutorial out there on youtube doesn't help because the video portion freezes partway through and you just get the audio. Of course, there's the manual, but that manual plus the manual for the actual software library plus the manual for the DAW and all the basic concepts one needs to have to understand what is being said in the manuals...well, it's pretty daunting.
> 
> So I found the EW Gold stuff a bit difficult to get the sound I wanted, not for a lacking in what it can do, but in my knowledge. Maybe go with your gut, which from your posts suggests the Albion One as long as you are OK with its limitations (and they all have them), and work with that for a bit. Don't even worry about layering just yet, either.



Morodiene, because Play is just a sample player and not a full on sampler, there really is not that much to understand.


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## Carbs (Sep 30, 2016)

I'm not sure how I came across Project Sam first (my memory sucks). I was probably going through a Sweetwater Catalog, then stumbled across the V.I section and noticed that OE was the cheapest, lol. This was not too long ago really, just back in early 2012 when I first dabbled into orchestral samples. 

Well...OE is a fantastic library, and sounds amazing out of the box, but I soon realized how much it SUCKED not being able to control individual sections/instruments of the orchestra. So, shortly after I bought EWQLSO Platinum Plus (because it came with a free copy of Hollywood Strings - each were $1000 at the time). 

If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have bought OE, but still would have purchased EWQLSO P+...simply because that library gave me the most creative freedom, and taught me the most about the orchestral V.I universe than OE ever could. It lacks true legato, but these days its a STEAL and I think it's sonically underrated!!


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## Morodiene (Sep 30, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Morodiene, because Play is just a sample player and not a full on sampler, there really is not that much to understand.


Well, for someone who is new to all of it, there's a lot of info to get up to speed all at once, and I find Kontakt instruments much easier in this regard. Perhaps because there's just more tutorials out there.

I also learned on Play 4.5 I believe, and now 5 is out. I have EW Symphonic Choirs, so I still will use it. So I'm not suggesting to never buy EW stuff, but for a newbie, it might be better to work with something that gets you up and running fairly quickly.


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## zippie (Sep 30, 2016)

I've been following this thread with great interest as I am in a almost similar position as the OP. A question: Is GPO 5
totally out of the realm of consideration? It occurs to me that it offers solo instruments as well as flexible sections. It also has harps and choirs. Of course I wouldn't expect sound quality to be as good as more expensive libraries, but for starting...what am I missing?


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2016)

I don't think that cinesymphony lite sounds more natural than Albion.

Well, I did consider cinesymphony because I could separate single instruments, but their educational system is not really customer-friendly. It only applies on people who already study music on a music school - which are often private, which means that these people already got a decent budget. And even if not, it's not like normal students would have more money - but they are not supported by cinesamples. So Spitfire Audio gets a very big plus here for taking more care of their customers.

At the moment I tend much to Spitfire Audio, and it's hard for me to deceide between Albion 1 & 2,
though I know what they are made for each. I don't care too much about single instruments for the beginning because I anyway want to layer the music with my synthesizer sounds.

I thought of trying out the composer cloud, only to find out, if I tend more to smaller or bigger ensembles (albion one or two literally), but does it even have an ensemble-based orchestra library or would I have to set it up myself by layering them all together?

But due to iLok and Eastwest's bad reputation, it is really hard for me to even consider eastwest as part of my shortlist, though it is tempting to have the hollywood orchestra with all sections separately. Also, I didn't hear any epic/hybrid scoring demo yet made with only hollywood orchestra by EWQL. I feel like it can't reach ff-power.

P.S.: I don't want to do epic/hybrid scoring alone. I like film score in general and would love to have a library that gives me access to both: Esoteric and suspense or big and epic, when I need it. But I probably will have buy two different libraries for that.


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## ghandizilla (Sep 30, 2016)

Loegria will cover your strings beautifully, but it's somewhat limited regarding the other sections.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Well, for someone who is new to all of it, there's a lot of info to get up to speed all at once, and I find Kontakt instruments much easier in this regard. Perhaps because there's just more tutorials out there.
> 
> I also learned on Play 4.5 I believe, and now 5 is out. I have EW Symphonic Choirs, so I still will use it. So I'm not suggesting to never buy EW stuff, but for a newbie, it might be better to work with something that gets you up and running fairly quickly.



I don't mean to be argumentative, and if you say certain Play _libraries_ are harder to understand than certain Kontakt libraries, I would understand but Play _itself_ is far more straight forward than Kontakt and because EW does all the libraries, there is not the wide discrepancies in GUI function and implementation that exists with Kontakt libraries, due to the myriad of developers.

I could teach you all you need to know about Play in a 20 minute Skype session


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## Morodiene (Sep 30, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I could teach you all you need to know about Play in a 20 minute Skype session


If you're serious, I may take you up on that offer. :D


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## Samulis (Sep 30, 2016)

zippie said:


> I've been following this thread with great interest as I am in a almost similar position as the OP. A question: Is GPO 5
> totally out of the realm of consideration? It occurs to me that it offers solo instruments as well as flexible sections. It also has harps and choirs. Of course I wouldn't expect sound quality to be as good as more expensive libraries, but for starting...what am I missing?



The problem with GPO is that it was never designed to be used for production-quality mock-ups in the first place. I remember reading over on the Garritan forums that Gary designed to simply as a basic soundset to work with notation software. Although their marketing has changed to make it sound like the cat's meow, the sounds really haven't, and its extremely primitive sample base is roughly comparable to Sonatina in detail, and in some cases even surpassed.

Basically GPO has...

No RR anywhere that I know of, even PERCUSSION!
Sampling in intervals such as minor thirds or even bigger than that
Seldom dynamic layers, sometimes none on many very dynamic instruments...
Very basic articulation choices
Obviously- no multi-mic, true legato
Thin, dry tone and general characteristics analogous to what you might expect using an EMU ESI-32 hardware sampler from the early 90's...

However, the redeeming qualities are...

You get a crudload of variations: each instrument typically has three samplings, and each sampling has three tweaked 'players' and a 'solo'
It's ridiculously lightweight, ideal for working on 'craptops', in 32-bit programs, etc.
It is very broad in terms of how many instruments it contains
Some elements, especially if you are a fearless SFZ modder, can actually sound quite decent given some love, namely the woodwinds, which I find are the second easiest instrument family to sample after percussion
The box functions as a very nice paperweight and fits nicely inside the EWQL SO box so you can hide it when your friends come by 

============
I do have a few additional caveats I forgot to mention in my last post. Here is my opinion on what is necessary, helpful, and not necessary in a library, from the perspective of both a developer and an avid consumer.

First, these are the specs one should *EXPECT* in a library in 2016:

4+ RR on all shorts, 6-8+ on drums/perc.
3+ velocity layers, with proper phase-locking or similar, mod/CC crossfading with clean, artifact-free transitions on all sustains. All membranophones (i.e. drums) 5-7+ velocity layers.
At least stereo recording minimum. Two mic positions (close, and room) are preferable, but most of the amounts greater than that are essentially just tying up RAM and HDD access (if streaming) for things that can easily be done with effects (excluding drum mics). If you have unlimited RAM constraints and a SSD, congratulations, you can use 8 mic positions instead of a reverb plugin and an EQ.
4+ average articulations per instrument- sustain, staccato, sampled or well emulated vibrato sustains for all; brass include fluttertongue, at least one mute with both sustains and staccato, and a few special articulations; strings include at least staccato, tremolo, martele, pizzicato, and bartok pizz.
Release tails that are cut correctly and adjustable. This sounds like a little thing, but having good release tails, or release tails at all, will greatly improve the playability far more than you think.
Sampling pattern of diatonic, wholetone, or chromatic.

What is nice to have but not 100% necessary?

True legato is also a nice plus, but with solo woodwinds and many brass is not as necessary as marketing hype leads one to believe. Despite the wonders claimed, it is an incredibly inefficient, resource-intensive process that produces only mildly superior results in most solo instrument cases. I've heard WIPS-powered instruments that sound more real than many true legato instruments. Definitely get it for vocal libraries, string libraries, and sectional libraries.

Polyphonic legato. It's cool, it's handy, it's powerful, but again, you don't really need it to make good music.
Time-machine/length adjustments for shorts: very powerful, but only works well with dry sound sources.
Multiple of the same instrument type- absolutely fantastic for people who like to 'paint' and rely on timbral variations, but for most composers this is unnecessary. This does have the nice advantage of allowing you to build good sections out of solo instruments too.
Sampled crescendos, rallentandos, sFz subito p, etc. are nice but can be emulated very effectively with dynamic crossfading. Totally unnecessary for rolling membranophones provided the rolls are performed, sampled, and crossfaded well.
Aleatoric effects. This depends on what you are doing, but for the most part, a basic set of a few simple effects and extended techniques are handy. I'd reckon most people don't much touch the extended techniques in most 'standard' libraries beyond a few exploratory trips and that time someone asked you to write a piece for their vampire thriller.
Buit-in reverb. It's good for trying out an instrument, but for most people, wholly unnecessary. Virtually everyone has their favorite 3rd party reverb they'll kill over.
Standardized keyswitching/articulation changing (e.g. UACC). Very handy for working with articulation changing plugins or in notation software, but not entirely necessary either.
Synthy pad tool thingermagigs. You know, the stuff that comes in Spitfire and Eduardo Tarilonte releases. They're nice, they're handy, but I always get the feeling they're just there to add filler and value without adding content.

So what do you *NOT* need?
Arpeggiators, ostinato machines, etc. This is what your freaking DAW is designed to do. Why on earth you could possibly want a mini-DAW inside your plugin inside your sampler inside your DAW escapes me.

Sampled chords for brass/woodwinds/etc.

Also unnecessary is any sample rate higher than 44.1 kHz. You are literally wasting hard drive space and burning money. The one exception is perhaps some stuff that will be stretched extensively AND was recorded using ultra high-end microphones that can record information above 22 kHz, which most studio microphones cannot.

There are merits to 24-bit audio, but let me put it this way: you don't need 24-bit audio unless you are A. using a ton of effects, B. doing ultra-fine tweaking to the samples (i.e. actually making a sample library), or C. unaware of how dithering works. If the library is recorded on tape, it's already only at approximately 13-bit levels on a very good day with noise reduction.

_Fun fact #1:_ the absolute best analog to digital converters can only manage about 127 dB of dynamic range, while 24-bit allows for 144 dB- you're already wasting almost 3 bits per sample right there. Each sample has thousands of samples within it, each library has now tens of thousands of samples... the bloat adds up.

_Fun fact #2:_ bit depth has zero, zilch, zip, nadda, none, null correlation with _sound quality_. Marketing often misleadingly makes it sound like you are getting better sound quality when all you are getting is a sound you can't hear [[if they recorded in a quiet space and used proper dithering techniques when mixing down the final samples, and if you're listening to a volume at which 0 dB would not cause irreparable damage to hearing]] being turned into a sound you _really_ can't hear.

I'd say probably 80% of libraries have noise levels greatly above the noisefloor provided by 16-bit, particularly those recorded in halls, with analog boards, or run through extensive amounts of effects. 24-bit will never, ever have any affect on the actual quality of the samples, simply on the noise floor, and only if it was *consistently* kept at 24 or 32-bit through *all* editing and effects in the creation of the instrument and the actual recorded difference between the loudest sound on the recording and the noise floor was greater than 96 dB- i.e. it was recorded in a very well made studio with incredibly low noise through quality preamps.

TL;DR: if you hear noise in your samples, it is very very likely the samples and recording conditions that are to blame and not the bit depth.

TL;DR of everything- question everything.


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## DSmolken (Sep 30, 2016)

zippie said:


> I've been following this thread with great interest as I am in a almost similar position as the OP. A question: Is GPO 5
> totally out of the realm of consideration? It occurs to me that it offers solo instruments as well as flexible sections. It also has harps and choirs. Of course I wouldn't expect sound quality to be as good as more expensive libraries, but for starting...what am I missing?


Well, it's very complete and flexible, in terms of things like small sections, covering the standard range of every instrument etc. It works fine for adding some orchestral elements to pop or EDM tracks, but for producing orchestral music it's just not going to sound like a bigger, more expensive library.


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2016)

Samulis said:


> _Fun fact #2:_ bit depth has zero, zilch, zip, nadda, none, null correlation with _sound quality_. Marketing often misleadingly makes it sound like you are getting better sound quality when all you are getting is a sound you can't hear [[if they recorded in a quiet space and used proper dithering techniques when mixing down the final samples, and if you're listening to a volume at which 0 dB would not cause irreparable damage to hearing]] being turned into a sound you _really_ can't hear.



Well, there was someone who made comparisons of the same EWQL samples in 16 and 24 bit, and I dare to say that there is a pretty audible difference.

Audio Files: http://sycraft.org/24bit/

Source Thread: http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=25129

Compare 16-bit samples to 24-bit wav file and 24-bit samples to 24-bit wavefile,
the latter has more room and dimension, the 16-bit files sound more flat.

("16-bit 24-bit" vs "24-bit 24-bit")


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> If you're serious, I may take you up on that offer. :D




Well, now that I no longer work for EW it is a paid service. But I will give you 15 minutes for free to get you going.


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## Red (Sep 30, 2016)

What does Hollywood Orchestra have that Albion doesn't?

The Sound! The Hollywood Sound!

Just hear the demos. and hollywood strings is not that hard of a string library to program.





These, albion can't do.
I'll pay 500 for the strings alone.

I'm biased tho. I remember paying 900 for hollywood strings. 
Which was my first sample library.
Guess which section I'm most comfortable with.


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## Voider (Sep 30, 2016)

Red said:


> What does Hollywood Orchestra have that Albion doesn't?
> 
> The Sound! The Hollywood Sound!



Well, HO is not an ensemble library but a bundle of single libraries.
To make a fair comparison you would have to compare hollywood strings with
something like spitfire chamber or symphonic strings which also focuses on only one thing.

But you are right when comparing a first time purchase between HO and one of the Albion series,
they serve different purposes. While the HO seems to fit more into film scoring in general and maybe classic,
the Albion series more head into cinematic/epic direction. But Loegria seems to be very capable of suspense and esoteric film scoring and I guess even a lot more, if used well.


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## Morodiene (Sep 30, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Well, now that I no longer work for EW it is a paid service. But I will give you 15 minutes for free to get you going.


I assumed it was paid. Time is worth something for everyone


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## Morodiene (Sep 30, 2016)

Voider said:


> Well, there was someone who made comparisons of the same EWQL samples in 16 and 24 bit, and I dare to say that there is a pretty audible difference.
> 
> Audio Files: http://sycraft.org/24bit/
> 
> ...


Wow, the 24-bit/24-bit has so much more headroom and spaciousness than the 16-bit samples/wav files. I've experienced the same sort of thing when recording operatic singing - at the lower sample rates everything sounds compressed or simplified or something. Not realistic, IMO.


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## Voider (Oct 1, 2016)

Wow, I am just suprised how worse eastwest actually is. Apart from that there is no other company I've read so many bad user experiences about from all over the world since I do music and being active in several forums, I slowly begin to understand about their philosophy.

I wanted to subscribe to the composer cloud for one month, just to try some stuff out and make sure what I need before doing my decision to buy anything (probably not from eastwest, but would've been a chance for them).
Let me rewind time 2 weeks back:

On their website they offered a "free trial" for I don't know, one week or something with 4 products or so from their collection. But guess what: You still had to sign up a payment method. It is a trial, so why would you set up a payment method for something that is free? Why not let you deceide afterwards if you want to subscribe?

The answer is simple: Because they aim for those situations where people forget to unsubscribe and get an unwanted next month subscription and money is snatched from their bank account.

And you may think that that's a stretch, but I just wanted to subscribe for one month via paypal and it said:
"Your paypal account is registered in a country that doesn't allow automated debiting, you can't use it for this service."

So they basically don't let me subscribe for one month, because there is no chance to maybe take money from my bank account in case I forgot to unsubscribe. I can't think of any other reason, since you are allowed to unsubscribe anytime anyway. It would've been no problem for users to just transfer money and activate their subscription when needed.

This perfectly fits into everything I've read about eastwest until today. For me, this company is dead before even started to work with them. I will avoid all of their products no matter what and stick to other companies that are not trying to ripoff their customers and actually take care.

I apologize if I have overlooked something but at this moment, I am really really upset and disappointed.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> I assumed it was paid. Time is worth something for everyone




OK, then send me an email, and we will set a time. [email protected]


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## BigImpactSound (Oct 1, 2016)

Albion is indeed very good, but a bit limited. Maybe for starting out east west symphonic orchestra is the best choice quality/price?


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## Thomas A Booker (Oct 1, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Wow, the 24-bit/24-bit has so much more headroom and spaciousness than the 16-bit samples/wav files. I've experienced the same sort of thing when recording operatic singing - at the lower sample rates everything sounds compressed or simplified or something. Not realistic, IMO.



This was probably just a typo, but just to be clear: these files have exactly the same sample rates - it's only the bit depth that's different. The sample rate is a separate thing.


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## Morodiene (Oct 1, 2016)

Voider said:


> Wow, I am just suprised how worse eastwest actually is. Apart from that there is no other company I've read so many bad user experiences about from all over the world since I do music and being active in several forums, I slowly begin to understand about their philosophy.
> 
> I wanted to subscribe to the composer cloud for one month, just to try some stuff out and make sure what I need before doing my decision to buy anything (probably not from eastwest, but would've been a chance for them).
> Let me rewind time 2 weeks back:
> ...



For the record, this is pretty standard procedure for handling any kind of subscription that has a "Free trial". They all do it, and you are right, but think about the alternative: letting you try it out for a month, and then *you* (the company) has to follow up with the customer and try and get them to sign up. More work on their end, and the way consumerism is these days, it's all about getting commitments upfront from people.

I can't really complain about this as a normal practice, because, well, you *do* get something for free, and you just have to be on top of your own finances so that you don't fall into the category of people who forget and get billed. And you can cancel at any time, so it's not like they're going to get money from you without your permission.

Also, I don't think it is unreasonable for a company to allow for only certain types of payment. So much of money is just a number on a computer screen that various entities have access to (with your permission). Again, just how things are going.


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## Morodiene (Oct 1, 2016)

Thomas A Booker said:


> This was probably just a typo, but just to be clear: these files have exactly the same sample rates - it's only the bit depth that's different. The sample rate is a separate thing.





Thomas A Booker said:


> This was probably just a typo, but just to be clear: these files have exactly the same sample rates - it's only the bit depth that's different. The sample rate is a separate thing.


You are correct, I misspoke.


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## Voider (Oct 1, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> For the record, this is pretty standard procedure for handling any kind of subscription that has a "Free trial". They all do it, and you are right, but think about the alternative: letting you try it out for a month, and then *you* (the company) has to follow up with the customer and try and get them to sign up. More work on their end, and the way consumerism is these days, it's all about getting commitments upfront from people.



1) If a product is nice and I have the money for and want it, then I buy it after a nice trial.
Vice versa, if I didn't like the trial the company can't change anything about it with running after me and begging me to subscribe.

2) That's no excuse for blocking "prepaid payment". If I have paypal and I am willing to pay for one month (29,99$) then let me. If I can cancel it anyway right 10 seconds later and have only subscribed for one month then, give me this possibility right from the start. Eastwest is making things complicated and worse for their customers.

The only other payment method offered on their website is a credit card, that costs a yearly fee.



Morodiene said:


> and you just have to be on top of your own finances so that you don't fall into the category of people who forget and get billed.



I didn't say that I would forget it. I said that Eastwest is aiming for those and making things complicated for everyone with it - not to mention that it is a really customer-unfriendly attitude.


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## Prockamanisc (Oct 1, 2016)

In my life I've spent around $1,800 for EastWest's libraries (CCC1 and Hollywood Complete). That was in September 2011 (5 years ago). I still use them. 5 years x 12 months = 60 months. 60 months x $30 = $1,800. Since it's now October, it's been 61 months since I've bought in, so that means I'm $30 ahead of the game.

I guess the obvious point is- you're complaining about having to _maybe_ spend $30 next month to a group of people who had to go all-in from the beginning. You should feel incredibly fortunate.


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## Voider (Oct 1, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> I guess the obvious point is- you're complaining about having to _maybe_ spend $30 next month to a group of people who had to go all-in from the beginning. You should feel incredibly fortunate.



No, I'm complaining about that *I can not subscribe to the composer cloud* because paypal in my country doesn't allow automated cash withdraws from a bank account, more specifically EWQL not allowing me to just pay.

I am here, the money is here, I am willing to subscribe for a month, but I unfortunately can't because I don't offer the option to maybe get extended without my permisson.


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## ghandizilla (Oct 1, 2016)

What about Sonivox Film Score Companion ? It's cheap, the samples are well recorded although the scripting seems afwul. But for a start, you get everything you need to score.


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## Zookes (Oct 1, 2016)

Prockamanisc said:


> I guess the obvious point is- you're complaining about having to _maybe_ spend $30 next month to a group of people who had to go all-in from the beginning. You should feel incredibly fortunate.


It is not so good to confuse business financing with consumer purchases. Very very different thingers.

Also this philosophy to place humanity where there is none forces customer loyalty for no reason.
Consider EastWest is a business entity to collect profit, like all business entities. It is not people. 
Doug Rogers tho is a person. People behave differently from business entities.

Very important difference to know.


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## Voider (Oct 1, 2016)

ghandizilla said:


> What about Sonivox Film Score Companion ? It's cheap, the samples are well recorded although the scripting seems afwul. But for a start, you get everything you need to score.



I already tried their demo a couple of months ago, and it is by far the weakest orchestral library to purchase I came across yet. The sounds are really low quality, especially the percussion is terrible - it is at all not much better than free libraries out there.

When I would go for a cheap but complete orchestra, there are of course possiblities like GPO5.
But I want to make a purchase that I don't forget after I used it to learn, but invest from the very beginning into libraries that I really could use in the end in my full productions.

At the moment I am thinking about to start over with single libraries, even if I would probably only could afford strings + brass + perc. Cinesymphony Lite is really tempting because of it's fast loading times, the ability to separate instruments and so on. But I'm not sure if I would use it later in productions.

Albion on the other hand sounds pretty awesome and the ensemble libraries still offer a lot of different mic positions and articulations. Need a decision soon before wasting days and days overthinking my purchase.

Maybe I would've already taken Albion with paypal as payment option. This way I would first have to transfer money to my wirecard..


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## ghandizilla (Oct 1, 2016)

Yes indeed, if the purpose is to get the first stone of your "composition temple", then it has to sound good, and Sonivox will be far from fulfilling this purpose. Even if it sounds good, I am not sure Cinesymphony LITE would be useful after the purchase of strong libraries, while Albion can really stand on it's own next to such strong libraries, because it sounds so organic, so like-nothing-else. I guess Albion (ONE) with a separate percussion library could make the deal. Albion ONE + ProjectSAM True Strike maybe? (But as stated before, the Albion Orchestra of ONE is so huge it can sound unrealistic, especially on the brass.)


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> For the record, this is pretty standard procedure for handling any kind of subscription that has a "Free trial". They all do it, and you are right, but think about the alternative: letting you try it out for a month, and then *you* (the company) has to follow up with the customer and try and get them to sign up. More work on their end, and the way consumerism is these days, it's all about getting commitments upfront from people.
> 
> I can't really complain about this as a normal practice, because, well, you *do* get something for free, and you just have to be on top of your own finances so that you don't fall into the category of people who forget and get billed. And you can cancel at any time, so it's not like they're going to get money from you without your permission.
> 
> Also, I don't think it is unreasonable for a company to allow for only certain types of payment. So much of money is just a number on a computer screen that various entities have access to (with your permission). Again, just how things are going.



Indeed, I wanted to see Ron Howard's "Eight Days A Week" Beatles documentary on Hulu. So I signed up for their one month free trial. If I don't cancel before that, I will be automatically charged.

If you are a responsible adult, it is manageable.


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## Voider (Oct 1, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> If you are a responsible adult, it is manageable.



Again, my point was not that I'm afraid I would forget to unsubscribe. I think I made pretty clear where the problem is.

But let's not talk about EWQL's business-model anymore, that's not really helping me to make a decision since they're off my list.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2016)

Voider said:


> Again, my point was not that I'm afraid I would forget to unsubscribe. I think I made pretty clear where the problem is.



Understood. But others have used the unsubscribing necessity before, so just making the point.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2016)

And they have every right to limit the free trial to those who can be auto subscribed, even if that eliminated you.


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## zippie (Oct 1, 2016)

I just signed up for a one month free trial of Amazon Prime. Suprisingly, I found an option where they will remind me three days before my trial is up! Pretty clever marketing.

Thanks for the great info on GPO 5! I'm torn between that and EWQL SO silver for $100. I'm just a dabbler and don't need to recreate an orchestra, though I am excited to learn what I can. So GPO5 sounds prolly good enough for me but I do like the idea of getting Silver, learning Play, and then hopping on the cloud whenever I need to add something. I just can't ever see me affording these expensive libraries, so EW may be an ideal way to slowly grow without major investment while GPO5 could be sort of a dead end. Just some thoughts. Thanks again for the insights--so much knowledge and experience here!


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## Voider (Oct 1, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> And they have every right to limit the free trial to those who can be auto subscribed, even if that eliminated you.



I'm not talking about "rights", they can do whatever they want. I'm talking about ease of use and the difference between good and bad customer support. There is basically no point in limiting trials or even subscriptions to those with auto-withdraw, when we talk about a service that can be unsubscribed anytime. The only goal here is to make extra money on customers that forget to unsubscribe for whatever reason. True well-elaborated service would grant the option for both: Purchasing a single month or making a subscription that continues unless you don't unsubscribe.

That's what is called _ease of use_. In fact they lost me as possible customer that would have spend hundreds if not thousands of bucks over years. Because I prefer making music and starting right off instead of being busy to workaround an outdated shopsystem that doesn't fit 2016's standards.


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## ghandizilla (Oct 1, 2016)

zippie said:


> Thanks for the great info on GPO 5! I'm torn between that and EWQL SO silver for $100. I'm just a dabbler and don't need to recreate an orchestra, though I am excited to learn what I can. So GPO5 sounds prolly good enough for me but I do like the idea of getting Silver, learning Play, and then hopping on the cloud whenever I need to add something. I just can't ever see me affording these expensive libraries, so EW may be an ideal way to slowly grow without major investment while GPO5 could be sort of a dead end. Just some thoughts. Thanks again for the insights--so much knowledge and experience here!



+1 for EWQL SO. It still sounds great!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2016)

Voider said:


> There is basically no point in limiting trials or even subscriptions to those with auto-withdraw, when we talk about a service that can be unsubscribed anytime. The only goal here is to make extra money on customers that forget to unsubscribe for whatever reason. True well-elaborated service would grant the option for both: Purchasing a single month or making a subscription that continues unless you don't unsubscribe.



That is your opinion and you are of course entitled to it, but they have been in business as one of the most, if not THE most, successful library developers in the business for 25 years now and I can assure you, they considered the ramifications of losing some people like you but nonetheless, decided on the implementation they decided on as overall being for the best.


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## Quasar (Oct 1, 2016)

Voider said:


> I'm not talking about "rights", they can do whatever they want. I'm talking about ease of use and the difference between good and bad customer support. There is basically no point in limiting trials or even subscriptions to those with auto-withdraw, when we talk about a service that can be unsubscribed anytime. The only goal here is to make extra money on customers that forget to unsubscribe for whatever reason. True well-elaborated service would grant the option for both: Purchasing a single month or making a subscription that continues unless you don't unsubscribe.
> 
> That's what is called _ease of use_. In fact they lost me as possible customer that would have spend hundreds if not thousands of bucks over years. Because I prefer making music and starting right off instead of being busy to workaround an outdated shopsystem that doesn't fit 2016's standards.



I completely agree that this is a legitimate complaint as well as a valid observation of a vulgar business practice. Just because something is commonplace doesn't mean that it is right.

You can't go wrong with Albion. I don't have any Cinesample stuff except the Tina Guo Legato, but have been through the walkthough of CineSymphony Lite and am very impressed.


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## Samulis (Oct 1, 2016)

Voider said:


> Well, there was someone who made comparisons of the same EWQL samples in 16 and 24 bit, and I dare to say that there is a pretty audible difference.
> 
> Audio Files: http://sycraft.org/24bit/
> 
> ...





Morodiene said:


> Wow, the 24-bit/24-bit has so much more headroom and spaciousness than the 16-bit samples/wav files. I've experienced the same sort of thing when recording operatic singing - at the lower sample rates everything sounds compressed or simplified or something. Not realistic, IMO.



Allow me to clarify...
It is *PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE* for bit depth to have *ANY* direct affect on sound quality, nor beyond that, stereo width/"room", depth/"dimension", or so on. It is no more possible for it to have an effect on sound quality or any of the parameters above than it is for one to decide gravity should stop pulling us towards the earth. You can't just "decide" that bit depth changes sound quality; digital audio doesn't work that way. 

There is only *ONE* thing and only one thing bit depth affects, and that is the noise floor, which, you cannot hear in any of these demos because the instruments are literally exponentially louder than it, unless you are listening to the track with instruments at a volume that would equate standing on the tarmac at an airport while a plane is taking off 200 yards away.

So that means one (or a slight mix) of three things-
1. EWQL is lying to you that the only difference is bit depth. This is actually somewhat likely; comparisons between "audiophile" releases and "standard" releases of albums, for example, are almost always rigged in the sense that the producers have gone back and redone the mix and THAT is what is truly different (however in my analysis below, this is not really that likely as the results are so similar).
2. Your ears are lying to you (we call this _confirmation bias_ or _observer-expectancy bias_ and it is extremely common). Basically you expect 24-bit to sound better, so it does. This is why any serious comparison is done double-blind, meaning neither the experimenter nor the experiment taker know which file is which, and repeated at least a dozen or so times to eliminate the chances of luck, and lastly done with several cases where the files are compared to themselves.
3. The creator of the files is lying to you that the only difference is bit depth, or your own equipment is lying to you. While certainly I can trust an individual who creates a trial with intent of equal comparison, that is not enough; one can still lie by accident. One must ascertain that the exact same signal flow, exact same properties, exact same timings, exact same phasing, etc. If 24-bit adds latency or goes through a different signal flow on their sound card or yours, or their dither tool works differently with 24 and 16 bit audio, it is not a fair test.

So, to eliminate my own biases, I decided to turn to an irrefutable source: *quantitative data*. Thanks to the same high-quality digital signal processing we have all had access to since the late 90's, simply inverting one channel of one source and merging it 50/50 with the regular version of the same channel of the other source will generate a track that is essentially the difference of the two files (a similar principle is used to eliminate noise in XLR cables).

I compared the frequencies of the left channel of 'chrome' 16 to 'chrome' 24 at 24-bit and the two are literally identical at every single point in the frequency spectrum. There is absolutely zero difference between the two files quantitatively: they are exactly identical.

How about the _Pictures at Exhibition_ excerpt? Very dynamic indeed- but still, the largest differences were below 12 Hz (below human hearing really) and over 15kHz, where the 16-bit side was ever so slightly more noisy... at an average vastly below human hearing (in fact, according to that, the 16-bit should sound more 'sizzling' and 'crisp').

However, if the engineers at EW were smart about generating their 16-bit samples from a 24 or 32-bit float source, they probably fliter-dithered their 16-bit audio, which would increase the noise in the upper frequencies, literally pushing the noise floor away from central frequencies. It's also possible the sample playback caused some subtle changes to occur in phasing, which would also make this happen- if the 24-bit samples were cut slightly differently or processed through a 24-bit processor separately on EW's end, or Play simply does some different stuff with 24-bit audio than 16-bit, this would account for that.

_So can you hear the noise difference?_
No, you honestly can't, and this isn't something that 'super ears' can have an effect on {in fact, more sensitive ears are even less likely to hear it, as they typically listen to audio more quietly to protect their hearing}. I created a mono difference file by comparing the left channel of the 16-16 to the left channel of the 24-24, which ended up averaging at about -85 to -90 dB and even more when excluding the bits of the original audio signal that got caught because of phase differences between the two tracks (as I expected) and should not be considered 'noise' as we are defining it.

In order to observe any noise floor audibly at the listening level that was "plenty loud" with the original comparison track, I had to increase the comparison by over 15 dB to get a _barely audible_ sound listening in a very quiet place with 'audiophile'-grade reference headphones... and this is pretty much what would happen if you took a silent 16-bit file and increased the volume about 20-30 dB, so no surprise here.

That was just getting it audible with NO instruments on top. Much like your eyes with light, quiet sounds are very hard to hear when you are hearing louder sounds, so if I can't hear the noise without boosting it 15+ dB, then it is absolutely impossible to hear it behind instruments orders of magnitude louder. Hearing the noise floor of 16-bit audio in a properly mixed, decently active track is like being able to hear someone breathing quietly 10 feet away while they mow the lawn. That really is how big the difference is, and that's not even including dithering, which extends the range.

And so what if you hear some noise?

In order to hear an audible amount of noise _as a result of bit rate difference_, you would literally need to use 50+ theoretically noiseless instruments at extremely quiet dynamic levels (typically already boosted by designer) with boosted signals. You would only need to increase the number of instruments by only about 30% to equal the same volume at 24-bit samples.
Virtually all classical recordings have noise far louder than our difference file showed... some as loud as -40 dB, and these are 'very favored' recordings!
This isn't the 1980's with aliasing and poor conversion: modern dithering noise is essentially pure white noise {unless filtered through filtered dithering or affected by shoddy or over-used denoising}, or to sound fancy, tape hiss (although the analog junkies hate to admit it).
If you at all add any noise to your audio, such as the hall noise EWQL provides, or any sort of tape emulator, tube emulator, etc... then you are literally undoing the benefits of 24-bit. It's even worse if you use samples recorded onto tape that are provided in 24-bit format.
Whole areas of discussions and advice columns regarding 'realistic mockups' focus on adding things like hall noise back into the mix to reduce the synthetic nature of the pristine samples, at decibel levels vastly higher than the noisefloor.
If you would like more proof, check out this writing by an expert (he literally creates audio codecs for a living)-
http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

So, the TL;DR:
Chance of bit depth having any direct affect on sound quality? Zero.
Chance of hearing any _actual_ difference at a normal or even 'mid-distance seats at a rock concert' level between 24-bit and 16-bit noisefloors? Zero.
Chance of hearing noise floor in 16-bit audio in a track that isn't mixed poorly? Zero.


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## handz (Oct 2, 2016)

Hollywood Orchestra Gold - no doubt.... really, with the sale price (and they have sale all the time) it costs you as a one section of any other lib and you have full orchestra which sounds great. I would definitely not go to something like albion as a first library, it will make a good add on later. Also - I saw many ppl saying something like "but it is play and all other libraries are for kontakt" etc etc... I dont see whats a problem here, usually especially as beginner you not going to do many changes to patches, you just load them and go, and also - play is free kontakt is not (some libraries works in free player but many dont).


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2016)

Samulis said:


> Allow me to clarify...
> It is *PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE* for bit depth to have *ANY* direct affect on sound quality, nor beyond that, stereo width/"room", depth/"dimension", or so on. It is no more possible for it to have an effect on sound quality or any of the parameters above than it is for one to decide gravity should stop pulling us towards the earth. You can't just "decide" that bit depth changes sound quality; digital audio doesn't work that way.
> 
> There is only *ONE* thing and only one thing bit depth affects, and that is the noise floor, which, you cannot hear in any of these demos because the instruments are literally exponentially louder than it, unless you are listening to the track with instruments at a volume that would equate standing on the tarmac at an airport while a plane is taking off 200 yards away.



Yep.


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## Quasar (Oct 2, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Actually, it is. I signed up for Hulu one month free trial. I watched "Eight Days A Week." I cancelled the subscription. On October 21, when the month is up, it I will not renew and I will not be charged.
> 
> Had he been able to sign up with Paypal in his country, it would have been that simple for him as well. He could have tried the CC for a month, and if unhappy, gone online in 10 minutes and cancelled. Put a reminder alarm on your computer calendar the day before it renews. Not all that difficult. Not all that vulgar.
> 
> But then, this is not really the era that is big on personal responsibility, is it?



Voider made it abundantly clear that a concern over failing to exercise "personal responsibility" is not the issue here. It's both frightening and astonishing to me that so many otherwise obviously intelligent people don't see such morally decrepit and exploitative business practices for exactly what they are.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2016)

Tugboat said:


> Voider made it abundantly clear that a concern over failing to exercise "personal responsibility" is not the issue here. It's both frightening and astonishing to me that so many otherwise obviously intelligent people don't see such morally decrepit and exploitative business practices for exactly what they are.



Well, after thinking it over I deleted that post because my views on this era are well known.

And once again, you are entitled to your opinion but while I can see people objecting to it as a business practice, I suggest reserving the morality argument for things that truly are moral issues. As it is not a monopoly and people have lots of choices, it is not a moral issue.


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## mc_deli (Oct 2, 2016)

I am gonna buy this guy Albino 1 just to get this thread over with.


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## Carbs (Oct 2, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> I am gonna buy this guy *Albino 1 *just to get this thread over with.



Eh, that's a nice gesture, but I don't recommend it. The GUI is very washed out and hard on the eyes.


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## rottoy (Oct 2, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> I am gonna buy this guy Albino 1 just to get this thread over with.


Albino 1?


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Albino 1?



I suspect he meant Albion 1. A funny joke, too bad he blew the punch line


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## mc_deli (Oct 2, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> I suspect he meant Albion 1. A funny joke, too bad he blew the punch line


You are a bit of a stick in the mud at times Jay
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/albino-hun.48677/


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2016)

mc_deli said:


> You are a bit of a stick in the mud at times Jay
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/albino-hun.48677/




OK, I confess, I am lost.


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## rottoy (Oct 2, 2016)

_"Albino 1 features all the essential white articulations - 
Bianco Strings (Sus, Staccato, Marcato & Pizzicato)
Pale Winds (Shorts and Longs) and 
Supremacist Brass (Shorts and Longs)."_


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## Voider (Oct 2, 2016)

rottoy said:


> _"Albino 1 features all the essential white articulations -
> Bianco Strings (Sus, Staccato, Marcato & Pizzicato)
> Pale Winds (Shorts and Longs) and
> Supremacist Brass (Shorts and Longs)."_



Don't forget to mention _Stephenson's very-white band _and the _Bleached percussion ensemble_, nothing works without good perc!


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## Morodiene (Oct 2, 2016)

Samulis said:


> Allow me to clarify...
> It is *PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE* for bit depth to have *ANY* direct affect on sound quality, nor beyond that, stereo width/"room", depth/"dimension", or so on. It is no more possible for it to have an effect on sound quality or any of the parameters above than it is for one to decide gravity should stop pulling us towards the earth. You can't just "decide" that bit depth changes sound quality; digital audio doesn't work that way.
> 
> There is only *ONE* thing and only one thing bit depth affects, and that is the noise floor, which, you cannot hear in any of these demos because the instruments are literally exponentially louder than it, unless you are listening to the track with instruments at a volume that would equate standing on the tarmac at an airport while a plane is taking off 200 yards away.
> ...



I reject your reality and substitute my own! 

So that's bit depth, what about hi res audio? Any value in that?


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## Morodiene (Oct 2, 2016)

Tugboat said:


> Voider made it abundantly clear that a concern over failing to exercise "personal responsibility" is not the issue here. It's both frightening and astonishing to me that so many otherwise obviously intelligent people don't see such morally decrepit and exploitative business practices for exactly what they are.


I hadn't made a moral declaration either way. I simply pointed out that this is a very common practice in the business world and it's not unheard of.

Whether or not you like getting something free for a month and canceling before that renews is up to the individual. I know many companies that don't offer free stuff at all.


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## Lotias (Oct 2, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> I reject your reality and substitute my own!
> 
> So that's bit depth, what about hi res audio? Any value in that?


Assuming you mean high sample rate by hi res, it really depends. High sample rates are valuable for extreme time stretching or pitching a sound down (frequencies you couldn't hear also get pitched down), but they can also cause bugs and problems. I made a public domain upright piano library and the 96 khz samples had an annoying ringing noise on some notes if you were running your daw at a lesser sample rate, while the 48 khz samples behaved perfectly fine. Other than sound design, it's not valuable. You'll hear no difference. The arguments for higher resolution don't work, because of how speakers/headphones actually produce sound - it's not in steps, and you can't hear that higher resolution anyways.

Also important to note is that some synthesizers/FX work better at high sample rates, depending on how they're programmed.


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## Voider (Oct 2, 2016)

Well, I heard a difference, she did and many others in the source thread did also. 
I don't think we all are just imagining that it sounds different, especially because all people
described the same effect: More (head)room, a more broader sound.


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## Lotias (Oct 2, 2016)

Voider said:


> Well, I heard a difference, she did and many others in the source thread did also.
> I don't think we all are just imagining that it sounds different, especially because all people
> described the same effect: More (head)room, a more broader sound.


Any BLIND a/b test leads to the same results. People can't tell the difference. It's the same effect where people will say cheap wine tastes better if you tell them it's expensive. Because of how we hear things we literally can't hear a difference.


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## Voider (Oct 2, 2016)

Lotias said:


> Any BLIND a/b test leads to the same results. People can't tell the difference. It's the same effect where people will say cheap wine tastes better if you tell them it's expensive. Because of how we hear things we literally can't hear a difference.



I know about blind tests, but there is a difference between being convinced of something or just trying something out with a doubt. Blind tests work because the subjects are convinced that A sounds better than B. I was not, I expected if any a difference that is hardly audible, if not no difference at all. But the result was a pretty clear audible difference. This is not how blindtests work.


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## Lotias (Oct 2, 2016)

Voider said:


> I know about blind tests, but there is a difference between being convinced of something or just trying something out with a doubt. Blind tests work because the subjects are convinced that A sounds better than B. I was not, I expected if any a difference that is hardly audible, if not no difference at all. But the result was a pretty clear audible difference.


Go try a blind a/b and you might be surprised.


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## Voider (Oct 2, 2016)

Lotias said:


> Go try a blind a/b and you might be surprised.



We can try it, download and upload it with another name (without 1/2 or A/B, nothing that could irritate my expectation) and let me guess which is which.
If I fail I will be convinced that I was actually catched by a placebo-effect.

http://sycraft.org/24bit/

Take these

SO test 16-bit 24-bit.wav
SO test 24-bit 24-bit.wav


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## Morodiene (Oct 2, 2016)

Voider said:


> We can try it, download and upload it with another name (without 1/2 or A/B, nothing that could irritate my expectation) and let me guess which is which.
> If I fail I will be convinced that I was actually catched by a placebo-effect.
> 
> http://sycraft.org/24bit/
> ...


If I may, it might be better to not just have a 50/50 chance of getting something right. So perhaps there could be a number of each recording, and you have to pick out which ones are the 24-bit? If it's audible and not a "placebo effect" type thing, then even not knowing how many 24-bit recordings there are one should theoretically be able to still pick them out.


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## Lotias (Oct 2, 2016)

Voider said:


> We can try it, download and upload it with another name (without 1/2 or A/B, nothing that could irritate my expectation) and let me guess which is which.
> If I fail I will be convinced that I was actually catched by a placebo-effect.
> 
> http://sycraft.org/24bit/
> ...


Sure. I took the 16-bit files as well for better comparison and more variables. Hopefully you don't cheat. 
http://www.mediafire.com/file/pjvhbk9p3mt7l4r/ab_test.zip


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## Voider (Oct 2, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> If I may, it might be better to not just have a 50/50 chance of getting something right. So perhaps there could be a number of each recording, and you have to pick out which ones are the 24-bit? If it's audible and not a "placebo effect" type thing, then even not knowing how many 24-bit recordings there are one should theoretically be able to still pick them out.



Sure we can try it out several times.



Lotias said:


> Sure. I took the 16-bit files as well for better comparison and more variables. Hopefully you don't cheat.
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/pjvhbk9p3mt7l4r/ab_test.zip



Uhm, I only compared the 24 bit versions yet. If there is any audible advantage of 24 bit, wouldn't it be lost when I compare the 24 bit version converted to 16 bit?

Gotta listen in a few min.

Edit: And of course I don't cheat, my goal is not to proof anyone something that might not be true, but to find out if I can really hear a difference or not


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## tack (Oct 2, 2016)

When you're comparing things like sample rate and bit depth, apart from blinding (which is of course vital), all the test files should be your highest sample rate and bit depth.

So if you want to compare e.g. 48kHz/16bit with 96kHz/24bit, downsample the 96/24 version to 48/16 (and use a decent dither). And then upsample _back_ to 96/24, except in this case the low order 8 bits of each sample will be unused (zero).

This will help to control differences that may exist in your DAC between different formats. Some DACs use different filters for 48 vs 96+ or 16 vs 24+, and to the extent you hear any difference at all, it may be explained by the differences in filters.

Also, in the case of sample rate tests, you need to first verify your signal chain doesn't suffer from intermodulation distortion, because that could manifest as an audible difference that has nothing to do with the source material.

In this case it's just a bit depth test, but the principle applies. You need to eliminate to the extent possible any confounding factors that could be introduced by your signal chain.

Unless of course your goal actually _is _to test your signal chain. But if you don't control for those things, you just can't draw any conclusions about 48 vs 96 or 16 vs 24 except about how it sounds on your particular setup.


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## Lotias (Oct 2, 2016)

tack said:


> When you're comparing things like sample rate and bit depth, apart from blinding (which is of course vital), all the test files should be your highest sample rate and bit depth.
> 
> So if you want to compare e.g. 48kHz/16bit with 96kHz/24bit, downsample the 96/24 version to 48/16 (and use a decent dither). And then upsample _back_ to 96/24, except in this case the low order 8 bits of each sample will be unused (zero).
> 
> ...


Good point, I wasn't thinking about this. My DAC is fairly nice (I have a UH 7000 interface) and hear no difference between any of the files. Two of the files in there are 24 bit though, so we'll see.


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## Voider (Oct 2, 2016)

Okay so, really really tough. I have to admit that I'm pretty confused and would more tend to say, that I can't hear a really over all difference, they sound all pretty the same. But if I would have to pick the record that I'd think that it is 24-24, I would pick D. I feel like it sounds a bit "wider", but yeah.. you gotta solve now if this is a placebo or not :D

I listened to them so many times, that I can't differ anymore from imagination or what I really think I heard.


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## Lotias (Oct 2, 2016)

Voider said:


> Okay so, really really tough. I have to admit that I'm pretty confused and would more tend to say, that I can't hear a really over all difference, they sound all pretty the same. But if I would have to pick the record that I'd think that it is 24-24, I would pick D. I feel like it sounds a bit "wider", but yeah.. you gotta solve now if this is a placebo or not :D
> 
> I listened to them so many times, that I can't differ anymore from imagination or what I really think I heard.


D was one of the 16-bit files. A was 24-24.
file A - 24 to 24
file B - 16 to 24
file C - 24 to 16
file D - 16 to 16
So hopefully now you see what I meant when the difference is completely negligible, audio-wise. Especially if there's any teeny amount of room ambiance baked in. I think even VSL still has early reflections in their recordings.


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## Voider (Oct 2, 2016)

All right, when I suspect the 16-16 as the "best sounding" than I got hit hard by a placebo 
I accept now that there is no audible difference, at least not for this purpose. I have to read some guides
into what higher bit depths then are actually for. I know at least one user has given detailed explanations on the previous pages, still gotta read it.


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## tack (Oct 2, 2016)

Lotias said:


> Two of the files in there are 24 bit though, so we'll see.


Did you dither when you bounced the 16-bit version?


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## benmrx (Oct 2, 2016)

Wow. I STRONGLY urge readers to do their own tests/research regarding bit depth and sample rates.

I would argue the difference between sample rate/bit depth matters MUCH less when comparing full tracks vs. the recordings for an orchestral sample library. The softer the dynamic, the more important it is.... IMO.


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## Lotias (Oct 2, 2016)

tack said:


> You did dither when you bounced the 16-bit version I hope?


I don't know, I didn't create the WAV files. But the fact that Voider thought the 16-bit sounded better after claiming he heard that the 24-bit sounded better when first listening (they are the exact same files that he first listened to) confirms what I was saying, so I wouldn't worry about that; for what I was trying to explain it was successful.


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## Samulis (Oct 2, 2016)

Voider said:


> I know about blind tests, but there is a difference between being convinced of something or just trying something out with a doubt. Blind tests work because the subjects are convinced that A sounds better than B. I was not, I expected if any a difference that is hardly audible, if not no difference at all. But the result was a pretty clear audible difference. This is not how blindtests work.



EDIT: I just saw you did a blind test. It's something I highly recommend everyone try for themselves, it really is the best way to see how these things work. 



Morodiene said:


> So that's bit depth, what about hi res audio? Any value in that?



Digital audio is essentially a measurement of two dimensions that make up waveforms: time, and power. Analog-to-digital converters take an analog signal (a varying DC electrical current essentially) and turn that into slices. We call these slices samples, and the number of slices per second, sample rate, measured in Hz, which literally means cycles per second. Examples of common sample rates are 44,100 Hz (or 44.1 kHz) and 48,000 Hz (or 48 kHz).

Imagine you were told to walk down across a hilly landscape and every foot take a measurement of the elevation. On the other hand, you could take a measurement every yard, but then every dip or bolder smaller than two yards would be improperly represented. This is what we call the Nyquist Theorem: a sample rate can represent any frequency up to 1/2 of the sample rate. That means our 44,100 Hz sample rate can contain any frequency up to 22,050 Hz, well beyond the generous top of human pitch perception, 20,000 Hz (which is pretty much only true for females below the age of 4- just regular aging and environmental noises at casual levels wear away at the upper limits over time).

So why would you possibly have a sample rate higher than that!?
Well, believe it or not, but you already do! Or more properly, did. Your audio card/interface is probably sampling the analog signal it receives at insanely high sample rates right now, but it down-converts it. This feature helps improve fidelity in the conversion process and gives extra headroom for the hardware.

If you actually want to record at a sample rate higher than that, then you will need a few things:
1. A microphone capable of picking up frequencies beyond 22,050 Hz, and with some degree of consistency.
2. An interface with an analog-to-digital converter capable of the desired sample rate, preferably a high-end one that will oversample greater as well.
3. Something that actually has frequency content up there- very high pitched, overtone-rich instruments, or perhaps some synths that can generate frequencies/overtones greater than 22,050 Hz.
4. A reason to use it such as bringing the frequency down several octaves, such as on a pad patch. Sometimes you can get some very very fascinating sounds by recording very high bell-like sounds at decent sample rates like 88.2 kHz and bringing them down an octave or two (there is a totally lossless way to do this by interpreting the sample rate at 44.1, that likewise can be done at higher frequencies. By the way, this is the same sort of thing as playing a 78 record at 45 or 33.3: fun for the whole family. :D

I definitely recommend watching the video/article I linked at the bottom of my last post, which discusses what the various factors of digital audio are and in what cases higher fidelity recording is and is not useful... basically what Lotias said. There's this thing called Aliasing, whereas frequencies that cannot be represented according to that Nyquist thingy we talked about before get folded over, i.e. a value that is 100 above the Nyquist frequency becomes a value 100 below, etc.

Most modern equipment has what are called anti-aliasing filters, and most professional equipment actually works at enormously high sample rates and then down-samples (also to avoid aliasing and provide a more accurate conversion), but on some equipment, particularly consumer level gear, these frequencies that are not possible to play back can get folded over and cause some very unattractive bell-like tones in the upper register, thus what Lotias was describing.


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## Lotias (Oct 2, 2016)

Samulis said:


> I respect your opinion, but I pretty much just scientifically and quantitatively proved to you that the two files are identical for all intents and purposes aside from a tiny discrepancy in phasing and a little bit more noise in the high end below the threshold of hearing. All difference between them are thus purely and only psychological according to the data.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just to support what you're saying, I only got the bell-like tones when I was running my interface at a sample rate lower than the samples were at; they played perfectly fine when my interface was running at 96 khz (which means that thankfully my interface can play it). Interestingly it only happened on the lower dynamic layer I recorded, and not the high one.


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## Thomas A Booker (Oct 2, 2016)

Voider said:


> All right, when I suspect the 16-16 as the "best sounding" than I got hit hard by a placebo
> I accept now that there is no audible difference, at least not for this purpose. I have to read some guides
> into what higher bit depths then are actually for. I know at least one user has given detailed explanations on the previous pages, still gotta read it.



Gotta respect that you were open enough to "put your money where your mouth is" and actually take a test, and that you were honest about the result (especially if it would've been easy to "cheat").


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 6, 2016)

Get East West Composer Cloud for starters. You might end up never getting rid of it. The only thing to be aware is, the sound on the Hollywood libraries can be very bald, so you might want to bone up on what you know about panning, effects (especially reverb), arranging. There's so much great stuff to inspire you there, and at under thirty a month you're getting one heck of a lot of sample power for your compositions.

But it does really depend on you knowing exactly what you're looking for. East West CC is pretty comprehensive though.


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## Voider (Oct 6, 2016)

Eastwest does too much wrong to be a real option for me. I probably go with Albion One (or Two) when my wirecard is working again, unless there will not be any other great recommendation here that I'd be tempted of. Still thinking about the "getting full single libraries"- option. That would be a bit more expensive and I probably would only start with strings and brass, but with all the bonus articulations and details it may be more versatile.

Can you guys recommend me some great libraries for strings, that can blend well with other libraries?


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## ZeroZero (Oct 10, 2016)

Morodiene,
I want to add that learing to use any orchestral package is less about learning the interface and more about working the sounds in a sequencer. Just putting a line together using only what comes out of hte box often sounds lame. Crafting velocity, expression and note lengths and muchg more is required, and all this is done in the sequencer. Particularly for strings lots of difrent articulations is better, but creating a whole line using one articulation is a bit boring. 
There are lots of good videos free on utube on these subjects, but there is also paid for video courses on Groove3
Cubase has some special tools that really help, note expression lets you craft individual notes, and expression maps lets you craft a line containing different articulations in one track.

Hope this helps.


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## Carbs (Oct 10, 2016)

[QUOTE="hodshonf, post: 4000411, member: 13104]
Albino uses KONTAKT Player (free player?)? - do i get the washed out version with Albino One?[/QUOTE]

Very washed out and pasty...as long as you stay out of the sun (I THINK) it would be ok (no composing by Windows, either). 

But in all seriousness, Albion One can be used in th free version of Kontakt, and yes it's limited compared to the paid version.


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## Morodiene (Oct 10, 2016)

@ZeroZero I understand and agree with what you said, not sure if I gave off the impression that I thought otherwise, but I do not . All I was saying is there is a lot to learn from ground zero, so going with something that is easier to work with/less to learn might be better to start out with than a more complicated thing.


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## tack (Oct 10, 2016)

hodshonf said:


> which key is C?


It's the one right between B and D. You can't miss it.


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 11, 2016)

hodshonf said:


> thanks for the replies!
> 
> i went with the EastWest subscription.
> 
> got a dedicated 3tb drive for it.



The drive will probably make you quite happy 

You picked a great one to start with. I'd have a hard time choosing just one orchestral library, but if it came down to it, only the Albions would give me pause over East West (and indeed, it's best to have both imo...I do).

I started out with East West stuff, and it (especially the Hollywood) has been a huge help to me over the years. Composer Cloud also gives you plenty of other, more "modern" options as well (Dark Side is smile-bringingly INSANE!!!lol).

Have fun too with the Stormdrums, they have been a huge inspiration to me over the years.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 12, 2016)

Great thread this. Interesting to see where and how it has moved.


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## Voider (Oct 13, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Great thread this. Interesting to see where and how it has moved.



Still waiting for my wirecards' support to reply after more than 10 days. I'll probably contact the spitfire audio support and ask for any other solution to pay, maybe they have an idea - but I still tend to spitfire. Especially because I would like to stick to one company and their stuff is so awesome and the customer support is so kind. They just announcend Albion V and it's awesome.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 13, 2016)

Voider said:


> Still waiting for my wirecards' support to reply after more than 10 days. I'll probably contact the spitfire audio support and ask for any other solution to pay, maybe they have an idea - but I still tend to spitfire. Especially because I would like to stick to one company and their stuff is so awesome and the customer support is so kind. They just announcend Albion V and it's awesome.


You'll hear no arguments from me about Spitfire. I've had only positive experiences with them and their libraries. Good choice if you can sort the payment.


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## ptsmith (Oct 15, 2016)

I did this a long time ago. It's a simple string track using EWQL SO 16bit and 24bit samples. I kept it very simple thinking it would make it easier to hear the difference. They switch between 16 bit and 24 bit randomly. Can you tell which is which?

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/24-16_test-mp3.6393/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## Niel (Oct 16, 2016)

Balefire said:


> Eastwest have 50% off their Gold editions until the 18th, well worth it. They did a similar deal just after I bought Cinesymphony Lite...



Yep, they have.

I worked hard last month. I saved about 700 euronions for Spitfire Chamber Strings. I thought, I will buy SCS today. I even prepared a bottle of wine for this evening... but I ended up picking Hollywood Orchestra Gold and Behringer BCF 2000.

And ILok


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## kitekrazy (Oct 16, 2016)

EWHO Gold can be had for under $300 from vendors. Killer deal! Too bad I can't go in debt for it.


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## bigcat1969 (Oct 16, 2016)

If it weren't for ILok, ah the temptations I would have... Something i never thought I would say, thank God for ILok, it saves me so much money.


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 17, 2016)

bigcat1969 said:


> If it weren't for ILok, ah the temptations I would have... Something i never thought I would say, thank God for ILok, it saves me so much money.



You know, I've been using ilok for several years now and haven't had even half the problems I read that people experience. The only thing I don't like about it is how I could use the extra USB input, but besides that I think it's fine. But that's just my experience, apparently I'm in the minority on this.


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## Quasar (Oct 17, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> You know, I've been using ilok for several years now and haven't had even half the problems I read that people experience. The only thing I don't like about it is how I could use the extra USB input, but besides that I think it's fine. But that's just my experience, apparently I'm in the minority on this.



If there were a crystal ball and one could know with absolute 100% certainty that a particular iLok-protected purchase would never cause a problem, some of us still wouldn't buy in to this CP protocol. There is a principle involved, too...


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## Ashermusic (Oct 17, 2016)

Principle, scminciple. Logic used to require a dongle called the XS Key. I used it, it was fine. VE Pro and some libraries I use require the Steinberg key aka the e-Licenser. I use it, it is fine. I use a lot of libraries that require an iLok, and of course all Pro Tools users need one. I use it, and it is fine.

Principle is not shopping at Walmart because of their business practices,not joining country clubs that exclude based on race religion or gender, etc. not refusing to consider buying a freaking plug-in because it requires an iLok. That trivializes the concept of a "principle" in my opinion.


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## Parsifal666 (Oct 17, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Principle, scminciple. Logic used to require a dongle called the XS Key. I used it, it was fine. VE Pro and some libraries I use require the Steinberg key aka the e-Licenser. I use it, it is fine. I use a lot of libraries that require an iLok, and of course all Pro Tools users need one. I use it, and it is fine.
> 
> Principle is not shopping at Walmart because of their business practices,not joining country clubs that exclude based on race religion or gender, etc. not refusing to consider buying a freaking plug-in because it requires an iLok. That trivializes the concept of a "principle" in my opinion.



lol! +100

If you're hesitating on an ilok or elicenser product, don't sweat it. My own problems have been minimal. I've had more problems with my computers than dongles.


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## Quasar (Oct 18, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> Principle, scminciple. Logic used to require a dongle called the XS Key. I used it, it was fine. VE Pro and some libraries I use require the Steinberg key aka the e-Licenser. I use it, it is fine. I use a lot of libraries that require an iLok, and of course all Pro Tools users need one. I use it, and it is fine.
> 
> Principle is not shopping at Walmart because of their business practices,not joining country clubs that exclude based on race religion or gender, etc. not refusing to consider buying a freaking plug-in because it requires an iLok. That trivializes the concept of a "principle" in my opinion.



Well-said, and I can't really criticize one for having this POV. It is - from the vantage point of one who has it - entirely reasonable on its own terms. I actually wish I shared this sentiment, as it would dramatically expand and simplify my options, and I could window shop without having to vet every library for its CP protocol. For example, I'd likely be all over EW if it wasn't for the iLok. I also wish I could visit the rich MIDI features in Cubase and check out the expression maps...

...But as we fully morph into the Information Age and the digital globally-connected grid becomes the dominant engine by which business is transacted, I would argue that the evolving rules of how these games are played are anything but trivial, but have vast and potentially dystopic implications for individual privacy and autonomy, as well as for the stature of corporatized institutional power, accountability and the right to redress. So I do not share your sense of scale when comparing the relative significance of draconian EULAs to memberships in racist clubs or patronage of marauding brick-&-mortar capitalist empires. I just don't.

Yet on the specific, microcosmic level you may be right. I certainly use PayPal, which is clearly a much more frightening consolidation of power w/o accountability than any company in the small world of compositional music software could ever dream of being, and the difference between a challenge/response file key and a USB stick/3rd party account could well be trivial. It can be difficult to know where and when to draw one's line in the sand.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 18, 2016)

Well argued, Tug.


Obviously, social media, shopping on the internet and everything that goes with all that has created privacy issues and dealing with them is a major paradigm shift for all of us. But anytime you walk towards something, you are walking away from something else.

So I have embraced this approach:

*Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb*


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## Fleer (Nov 6, 2016)

hodshonf said:


> ahhh, yes.
> 
> always wondered what that black thing was for.


Don't touch that juan!


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## cmillar (Nov 7, 2016)

Can't believe no one has mentioned this yet:

Kirk Hunter Virtuoso Ensembles - on sale too at an introductory price
https://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/products/virtuoso-ensemble/

Check it out, as well as all the other Kirk Hunter products.

A lot of you will be scratching your heads as to why you've never considered his products before. Excellent prices for what you get.

Highest compliments (professional compliments).... Kirk Hunter's instruments just keep on working.


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## Voider (Nov 8, 2016)

In my honest opinion, to me the Kirk Hunter stuff and virtuoso ensemble included, sounds somehow a bit "cheap".
Can't describe what it is but I guess it's the record. The introduction price should be the normal price tag, I don't see why I would chose virtuoso ensemble over Albion One when it is in the same price range, but Albion sounds so more polished.


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## khollister (Nov 8, 2016)

Coming to this pretty late (tried to skim the preceding posts) but a couple points I would make ...

There is a big difference in traditional writing for orchestra (where you need something like HWO, EWQLSO, Spitfire BML/Symphonic, OT Berlin sections, etc) or using pre-built ensembles like Albion, Symphobia or whatever. I gather the OP is not classically trained and could potentially be overwhelmed by a traditional orchestral library. 

While I own all of the Albions (inc both ONE & the original 1), I agree with an earlier poster in that I am very disappointed in ONE compared to the legacy product. The brass and winds are rather synth sounding to me in particular - very un-Spitfire like. I got ONE basically for free with a bundle completion (really wanted IV & V) but I would not recommend ONE at normal price. 

I haven't heard the ARK stuff, but based on what I'm familiar with, I would go with OE. Close second would be the legacy Albion 1 but you can't buy that anymore. OE is a pretty complete cover of a symphony orchestra (including a pretty nice pipe organ) and sounds good. It's Kontakt (which the OP prefers).


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## Mike Fox (Nov 8, 2016)

khollister said:


> Coming to this pretty late (tried to skim the preceding posts) but a couple points I would make ...
> 
> There is a big difference in traditional writing for orchestra (where you need something like HWO, EWQLSO, Spitfire BML/Symphonic, OT Berlin sections, etc) or using pre-built ensembles like Albion, Symphobia or whatever. I gather the OP is not classically trained and could potentially be overwhelmed by a traditional orchestral library.
> 
> ...


If I could only use one library for the rest of my life, OE would be it. ProjectSAM's tone and unique room sound is my personal favorite.


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## Voider (Nov 8, 2016)

khollister said:


> I agree with an earlier poster in that I am very disappointed in ONE compared to the legacy product.



Isn't the whole legacy set still included in Albion One? I know they have some Legacy files in their overview videos.


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## Scamper (Nov 8, 2016)

Voider said:


> Isn't the whole legacy set still included in Albion One?



It's not all of legacy, just some selections and mostly short articulations.


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## khollister (Nov 8, 2016)

Voider said:


> Isn't the whole legacy set still included in Albion One? I know they have some Legacy files in their overview videos.



Not from what I see in my copy. There is a Legacy folder but some of the patches (e.g. Brass Hi) are missing a bunch of articulations.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 8, 2016)

Scamper said:


> It's not all of legacy, just some selections and mostly short articulations.



That's why I have both, and use them each regularly.

I'm glad I started out with the East West Hollywood stuff, not just because of (the majority) of the sounds are great (imo), but because it also forced me to learn how to use effects better in order to sculpt my sound. I can see where grabbing instant gratification can be both inspiring and fun, but I can't imagine ever having learned what I did about effects, etc without having started with a pretty much no-frills set of instruments.

Engineering skills are something that the ready-out-of-the-box folks might not feel necessary to study, and imo that's a big mistake. So maybe just keep that in mind if you do go the Ark route or Cage (both fine libraries, regardless).

Of course, hey, do whatever helps satisfy your inner vision!


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## ghandizilla (Nov 9, 2016)

I think the best would be to go into both worlds. Since Albion Legacy is not available anymore (I have a laptop template with Albion Legacy and Loegria Strings: never used a best template for sketching), I think the best ensemble/sketching library available out there is CineSymphony Lite. If the sound of CineSymphony Lite doesn't suit the user, Rhapsody Orchestral Colors (completed with Rhapsody Percussions) is really amazing. See the Orchestral Colors review here :


But it has to be completed with a separate section orchestra (since the risk of becoming lazy is there, so you have to move forward fast). The EastWest deal is a killer, and I think you can actually _alternate _between ensemble (Strings, Brass, etc.) and sections (Violins, Violas, etc.) writing. Something I did eleven years ago when I made my first arrangements was to orchestrate by sections, but use only strings and woodwinds, or strings and brass: the use of the whole orchestra came later. You can use East West Hollywood for the sections of one or two instruments families, and something like CineSymphony Lite or Rhapsody for what's left. Rhapsody is an underestimated tool: the chords are numerous, letting the user easily avoid divisi problems, the unison scripting is clever, the dynamic range is wide, you can split the ensembles into double-sections or create your own custom ensembles, and the recordings are fine (dry, so you can blend them easily). Afterwards, step by step, you will be able to manage all the sections together. Then keep the ensemble library for tight schedule lines, keep buying stuff when you need it (not because it's hyped), and you will be happy with that base!


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## OliverLee (Nov 10, 2016)

Spitfire Audio's Orchestra Tools are really great for eveyone who wanna orchestrate easily and also precisely. I'm not professional orchestrator yet and just amatuer, but with Spitfire's stuff I can organize very realistic sound. 

That's the introduction part of "Johann Strauss - Tales from the Vienna Woods) I copied it only using Spitfire's Strings, brass and Woodwinds. I just used all the Spitfire's "Jack's stereo mix samples' and never tried any mix operating.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Hey guys - I just did see that 8dio has some big 70% discounts on solo viola and stuff, for example this one -> https://8dio.com/instrument/adagio-violas/
or this
https://8dio.com/instrument/agitato-sordino-strings-for-kontakt-vst-au-aax/

Can their libraries stand spitfire and other companies? Pros and cons for 8dio?


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> Hey guys - I just did see that 8dio has some big 70% discounts on solo viola and stuff, for example this one -> https://8dio.com/instrument/adagio-violas/
> 
> Can their stuff stand spitfire and other companies? With a lot of discounts could one get the first orchestral library on 8dio or is there any major issue why you wouldn't recommend them?



You should do some research here on the forum, there's lots of threads about Adagio already. They are planing on updating it but it's been many years since they promised said update. It's also a paid update. The libraries have been getting some love for the sound and emotion but not so much on the playabillity and workflow. But if you're fine with not getting fixes and with the product as is then go for it. But from their record if you find bugs they might stay there for a while. I hope this new update is a sign for something better, maybe they've changed.

Here's the most recent thread about Adagio that was started when they put them on sale you should look through it.

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/8-dio-70-off-any-adagio-or-agitato-product-or-bundle.57140/


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Thanks, I will look into it


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## airflamesred (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> Hey guys - I just did see that 8dio has some big 70% discounts on solo viola and stuff, for example this one -> https://8dio.com/instrument/adagio-violas/
> 
> Can their libraries stand spitfire and other companies? Pros and cons for 8dio?


Adagietto is an absolute steal at current pricing.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

airflamesred said:


> Adagietto is an absolute steal at current pricing.



I see, but Sordino Strings on the other hand has also individual sections!


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

You can't really compare Adagietto and sordino strings. Adagietto has sordino sustains just no legato. But sordino and no sordino is used for a very different type of sound. I wouldn't start with sordino strings if you don't have much else. You can always eq normal strings to sound somewhat like sordino strings so that's always an option.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

I would also recommend looking into EW Hollywood series because they are having a sale right now. But you get a whole orchestra, a very good sounding orchestra at that, for a good price. Although it doesn't use Kontakt but instead uses Play which you would need an iLok for which makes it a no deal for me. I remember before at least it was pretty resource hungry and you needed a rather strong computer to run it. Not sure if that's still the case, but it's probably more heavy on your system compared to a Kontakt alternative.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

I feel the same about iLok, that's the only reason I stay away from it probably. And maybe that I doubt hollywood orchestras' capabilty of doing more agressive sounds like hybrid scoring or epic trailer scores.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

Oh you would be surprised. If I were to go the aggressive and hybrid route I would look at hollywood orchestra. It's made by the guys from Two Steps from Hell and hollywood brass is the best sounding brass to date for the more aggressive stuff. From what I understand they use hollywood brass in their tracks from time to time. But century brass, the new library from 8Dio, sounds like it's going to feature some massive sounding brass.

And I would also recommend metropolis ark1 by orchestral tools if you want aggressive stuff. The brass is great and it's very powerful all around. You won't get the individual sections for strings and you won't get all the woodwinds that would make up a traditional orchestra but for epic stuff that's pretty high up.


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## Morodiene (Nov 14, 2016)

The iLok thing I think can be met with an eLicenser I believe (no dongle).


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## procreative (Nov 14, 2016)

Actually thats a different system, belongs to Steinberg. But many iLok libraries have the option to install the license onto the computer. Not all companies support this I think, seem to remember either SSL or Slate don't. Not sure if East West does as mine are still on iLoks.

Honestly unless you plug/unplug all the time, they are pretty robust and as long as you have them somewhere out of the way they work fine. Had mine for some 5-6 years now no issues.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> The iLok thing I think can be met with an eLicenser I believe (no dongle).



Yes, that's right. But if you do it on a laptop and lose your computer there's a chance you will have to buy it again, or if you do put it on the ilok and it breaks they might not do it either. You can also only have them activated on one computer at a time, not a problem for me though but it might be problem for some. Kontakt allows for multiple computers right?

But over all I just don't like the idea because it's a hassle for the consumer and something I don't want to support or pay for.



procreative said:


> Actually thats a different system, belongs to Steinberg. But many iLok libraries have the option to install the license onto the computer. Not all companies support this I think, seem to remember either SSL or Slate don't. Not sure if East West does as mine are still on iLoks.
> 
> Honestly unless you plug/unplug all the time, they are pretty robust and as long as you have them somewhere out of the way they work fine. Had mine for some 5-6 years now no issues.




She's actually right about the no dongle thing. The eLicense she's wrong about because that's steinberg as you say. But for EW you don't need the actual dongle anymore.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Daniel F. said:


> Oh you would be surprised. If I were to go the aggressive and hybrid route I would look at hollywood orchestra. It's made by the guys from Two Steps from Hell and hollywood brass is the best sounding brass to date for the more aggressive stuff. From what I understand they use hollywood brass in their tracks from time to time. But century brass, the new library from 8Dio, sounds like it's going to feature some massive sounding brass.



I have searched for "Hollywood orchestra" epic hybrid scoring, I didn't found one track that is on a modern standard, I rarely even found a track in this more agressive genres. And metropolis ark I heard, is better for trailer music than for actual scoring. If you know some please share them with me!

Well Kontakt is by NI and they're here in germany, they have a great support and since I live here I could contact (pun not intended) them any day I need via phone, that's a big advantage to me. What is this dongle/e-licenser thing? I thought the hardware licenser is just an optional thing and not a must have.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

Post something that you consider epic hybrid music.

Nice pun btw lol


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

@Voider I will post here instead.



Voider said:


> Sure, Adagio violins would've just been the string section then. I have a budget of around 500 to spend to get my orchestra stuff together and via sales I could afford each instrument library for around 125. Or of course go with a ready made like Albion One, which is still very tempting to me.
> 
> I have The Grandeur for piano and by Heavyocity: Master Sessions Ensemble Drums, DM-307, Vocalize and Natural Forces. That's all I own so far.



But for 500 bucks you will only get the adagio bundle and by orchestral stuff I presume you mean the whole orchestra. The Master Session drums are very good for epic hybrid music as is DM307 and gravity. But then that leaves brass, woodswinds and orchestral percussion still. If you want to start making music soon I would say either go for a premade package like Metropolis or Albion, or go with Hollywood Orchestra. Hollywood Orchestra is the only package I know that's as extensive as it is for less than 500, maybe there's some others out there that I don't know about.


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

the hollywood orchestra is the best bang for the buck atm. 449$ for diamond is really a steal if you can live with play (actually i never had problems with it and i hear version 5 is even better).

you will need a quite powerful machine to use orchestra diamond (ssds recommended).

hollywood orchestra can for sure do that epic thing and ofcourse everything else aswell.

search for peter crowley (he uses only orchestra gold afaik) on youtube or denny schneidemesser and you will hear the hollywood orchestra in action.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Daniel F. said:


> Post something that you consider epic hybrid music.



Songs like these:










Daniel F. said:


> But for 500 bucks you will only get the adagio bundle and by orchestral stuff I presume you mean the whole orchestra.



I only thought of this one: https://8dio.com/instrument/adagietto-vst-au-aax-kontakt-instruments-samples/

This would be a full string ensemble and then I would move on and buy my brass, woodwinds and percussion anyhwere else. But I don't like this idea too much anymore :D


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Heroix said:


> the hollywood orchestra is the best bang for the buck atm. 449$ for diamond is really a steal if you can live with play (actually i never had problems with it and i hear version 5 is even better).
> 
> you will need a quite powerful machine to use orchestra diamond (ssds recommended).
> 
> ...



I could live with play maybe but not with iLok and and I don't even know about how the stuff with the dongle and elicenser works but I heard so many bad things and experiences about it. I checked a few songs by peter crowley, he does use a lot more products than eastwest stuff only (he list them in the description) but especially the string/brass part by eastwest I don't feel as "punchy" or "big" enough, also in his songs.


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

i forgot to say. if i would start out right now i would buy the orchestra diamond or get composer cloud.
if i dont like those two options i would wail for black friday for sure


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## Musicam (Nov 14, 2016)

I suggest: Instedad of 449$ composer cloud is more cheap and useful! I like this method.


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> I could live with play maybe but not with iLok and and I don't even know about how the stuff with the dongle and elicenser works but I heard so many bad things and experiences about it. I checked a few songs by peter crowley, he does use a lot more products than eastwest stuff only (he list them in the description) but especially the string/brass part by eastwest I don't feel as "punchy" or "big" enough, also in his songs.



you can have a machine license and dont need a dongle. not a problem at all.

hollywood brass is big and punchy for sure. iam sure you will find alot of songs with it which are really big


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## airflamesred (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> I see, but Sordino Strings on the other hand has also individual sections!


Adagietto has normal, sord and (despite Daniel F's protestations) legatos, shorts - marcato, stac, spic, pizz and bartok. All of these artics are in each of the four sections, Basses, Cello, Viola and violins.
And let us not forget dyn bow longs and a couple of ensemble patches.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

airflamesred said:


> Adagietto has normal, sord and (despite Daniel F's protestations) legatos, shorts - marcato, stac, spic, pizz and bartok. All of these artics are in each of the four sections, Basses, Cello, Viola and violins.
> And let us not forget dyn bow longs and a couple of ensemble patches.



I'm like positive it doesn't have sordino legato. I hope you prove me wrong that would mean it's even more worth it than I tought.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Heroix said:


> you can have a machine license and dont need a dongle. not a problem at all.
> 
> hollywood brass is big and punchy for sure. iam sure you will find alot of songs with it which are really big



But when my iLok for no reason thinks I don't have a license or has any issue, I can't use my libraries. I've read that from not just a few people and they all also said that the support needed like one whole week or longe to reply, time where they couldn't use their libraries. And also that iLok digs very deep into the system and slows down the computer.

Do you have any examples for the brass? It sounds good no doubt, but listening to the demos on their page I wouldn't call it big or punchy.

Edit: Okay I listen to one example now that sounds pretty fat. 
Hmm..


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> But when my iLok for no reason thinks I don't have a license or has any issue, I can't use my libraries. I've read that from not just a few people and they all also said that the support needed like one whole week or longe to reply, time where they couldn't use their libraries. And also that iLok digs very deep into the system and slows down the computer.
> 
> Do you have any examples for the brass? It sounds good no doubt, but listening to the demos on their page I wouldn't call it big or punchy.



That's true. If you loose your iLok or it for some reasons is not recognize it you won't be able to use the libraries. But that's the thing you don't need an iLok if you use a machine license. Then your whole computer is the ilok. So if your computer breaks or it gets stolen it's not good because that's the same thing as your ilok breaking or getting stolen. And you will have to file for a replacement license that might go through or might not.

I don't know what happens if you have a machine license and have to reinstall the os will that trap the license in the old os so you cant deactivate it?


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Yeah what happens when I buy a new HDD/SDD or reinstall windows? Machine-License sounds like when I do that, my libraries get lost. Otherwise it wouldn't have the protection effect, if I could download my machine license from my computer to any HDD. This system sounds just terrible.


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## procreative (Nov 14, 2016)

Daniel F. said:


> That's true. If you loose your iLok or it for some reasons is not recognize it you won't be able to use the libraries. But that's the thing you don't need an iLok if you use a machine license. Then your whole computer is the ilok. So if your computer breaks or it gets stolen it's not good because that's the same thing as your ilok breaking or getting stolen. And you will have to file for a replacement license that might go through or might not.
> 
> I don't know what happens if you have a machine license and have to reinstall the os will that trap the license in the old os so you cant deactivate it?



So if you are that paranoid, what you do is go for a machine license. Then once everything is installed clone your system drive and keep that safe elsewhere. If either your computer or hard drive go down, voila.

But I have my iLok permanently plugged in since 2009, never had one issue.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

Maybe. But I can't aswer that for sure. I don't know if machine license is based on the hardware of the machine or something else. But there's a lot that could go wrong with this kind of protection and I just don't want to risk it. At least it's been getting better from what I've heard with this machine license it's probably very good for people who have slaves that hey never upgrade or touch.

Btw most libraries can do what you linked. Most libraries can do that kind of music pretty well because it's rather simple when it comes to articulations and emotion. Don't take it the wrong way that music is great, it's just not as demanding on the libraries as more classic scores. EW Hollywood would do that easily as well as metropolis ark. Albion doesn't have a very good brass section imo so albion wouldn't do as well. And you've already got some really good percussion and if have a good synth as well either library will do fine.


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## airflamesred (Nov 14, 2016)

Daniel F. said:


> Adagietto has sordino sustains just no legato.


Fair point Daniel, I had misinterpreted your sentence.


Daniel F. said:


> I'm like positive it doesn't have sordino legato. I hope you prove me wrong that would mean it's even more worth it than I tought.


Still a bargain.


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## procreative (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> Yeah what happens when I buy a new HDD/SDD or reinstall windows? Machine-License sounds like when I do that, my libraries get lost. Otherwise it wouldn't have the protection effect, if I could download my machine license from my computer to any HDD. This system sounds just terrible.



No because you would use the License Manager before changing drives and deactivate the license on the computer. It then sits in your account and once you have installed everything on the new hard drive you reactivate it.

I have a Mac and when I changed my Hard Drive to an SSD, I just cloned it.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 14, 2016)

I


airflamesred said:


> Fair point Daniel, I had misinterpreted your sentence.
> 
> Still a bargain.



I agree. It's still a good library for the price. It has it's flaws, just like adagio and almost every other library on the market, but it also has some real good patches that make it worth it. It even have velocity based legato for the legato patches.



procreative said:


> No because you would use the License Manager before changing drives and deactivate the license on the computer. It then sits in your account and once you have installed everything on the new hard drive you reactivate it.
> 
> I have a Mac and when I changed my Hard Drive to an SSD, I just cloned it.



But what if the harddrive crashes and you've not backed the drive up?



Niel said:


> Yep, they have.
> 
> I worked hard last month. I saved about 700 euronions for Spitfire Chamber Strings. I thought, I will buy SCS today. I even prepared a bottle of wine for this evening... but I ended up picking Hollywood Orchestra Gold and Behringer BCF 2000.
> 
> And ILok



I don't want to derail this too much but what do you think about the BCF2000? I suspect you use it for dynamics and expression not as a mix controller.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Daniel F. said:


> But what if the harddrive crashes and you've not backed the drive up?



That's the question. Library lost.. ? Only the thought that one could lose a library he/she bought is hilarious.


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

licenses are still stored in your ilok account no matter what happens to your computer.

well if you dont like ilok stuff maybe just wait for black friday and hope for a good cinesamples sale or similar.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Heroix said:


> licenses are still stored in your ilok account no matter what happens to your computer.



Didn't someone say I would have a machine license *or* an iLok? The first would replace the latter.



Heroix said:


> well if you dont like ilok stuff maybe just wait for black friday and hope for a good cinesamples sale or similar.



Cinesamples is too expensive to build a library with my budget of 500 bucks and their all in one library lacks tons of articulations and note lengths.


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

you have an ilok account online where your licenses are stored. you can transfer those license to a physical ilok usb dongle or just use a machine license.
it never slowed down my computer and tbh i never had any problems with it so far.

the hollywood orchestra needs also a bit of work to sound good (midi data, effects etc.), but its the best choice on that budget. invest a few bucks more and get some epc perc lib like apocalypse perc ensemble from soundiron or heavyocity damage. also you will need some synth, but there are also some good freeware synth you could use or the ones which came with your daw.

maybe try composer cloud for a month and see if it works for you. this might be the best option because you also get alot of big drums, spaces (reverb) and lots of useful other stuff.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

I already have DM-307 and Ensemble Drums from Heavyocity. They can do a lot, but I think too that I definitely need a big percussion library on top - still. I've got a Synthesizer, Dune II, I bought it last year and I did spend a whole year with practicing sounddesign so that is my strongest point so far  I could probably make any patch I need from scratch.

So do I get you right, I have an online iLok account and can activate a machine license from there, and if my HDD gets lost for any reason, I can log into my iLok account an generate a new license on my new machine?


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> I already have DM-307 and Ensemble Drums from Heavyocity. They can do a lot, but I think too that I definitely need a big percussion library on top - still. I've got a Synthesizer, Dune II, I bought it last year and I did spend a whole year with practicing sounddesign so that is my strongest point so far  I could probably make any patch I need from scratch.
> 
> So do I get you right, I have an online iLok account and can activate a machine license from there, and if my HDD gets lost for any reason, I can log into my iLok account an generate a new license on my new machine?



yes!


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Hmm.. and, I know that Hollywood Orchestra has single instruments/sections, how about ensembles? Would I have to layer them? Could they then sound really big and wide or will it still be a big difference to something like Albion One?


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

it has single instrument patches and and also ensemble patches (strings, 2FH, 6FH etc). you can have a look at the soundsonline patch and download the manuals which will list all of the articulations.

honestly, try the composer cloud. for the money you cannot go wrong and you also get some big kick ass perc (storm drum 2 and 3). lots of other usefull stuff aswell. on a short budget there is nothing coming close.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Composer cloud only allows Paypal or credit card, I don't own the latter and Paypal is not avaiable for my country because it doesn't allow automated withdraws. But I would anyway rather spend my money on a library that I own, the CC would only be interesting for testing the libraries before but yeah.. I cannot.


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

well without paypal or a credit card youre also not able to buy most librarys, are you? not sure...

maybe there are prepaid credit cards in your country? might be an option aswell.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

I have paypal! I can buy the library. I can't use it for the Composer Cloud because it requires the ability to withdraw the 29 bucks per month - but it can't because this process with paypal seems not to be allowed in germany, so they don't allow me to sign up for the composer cloud. But that doesn't affect regular payments


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Yes there are prepaid credit cards, I thought of that option. But when I try it out and use it one month, the sale is probably gone. Is 50% a big sale for eastwest or do they more heavy ones through the christmas time?


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## MarcelM (Nov 14, 2016)

okay, ich hatte glaube ich meine kreditkarte benutzt als ich die cloud hatte. wusste nicht das paypal für uns deutsche keine option ist.

sorry for the other guys... just one answer in german


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## Morodiene (Nov 15, 2016)

I'm in the same boat as you, Voider. I'm looking to get a library, but I want something that has individual instruments, not something that is just ensembles. It seems as though VSL is the most affordable for a full orchestra, but since it's dry it takes a lot of work. I'm not afraid of work, but I'm slow enough as it is. 

It does seem however that the best route to go in the long run is to buy libraries that focus on one orchestral section. The way I see it, I can spend $500 or so now on a full orchestra and use that, but eventually I'm going to want the quality that you can get with the more focused libraries, so I'm going to need to spend more money. So I think I'm going to wait and just work with what I have, and then when I can afford, I'll buy a library.

Of course, during this time, I'll be learning so hopefully I can make best use of the libraries when I buy them. So if you can get by with what you have, or use the Composer Cloud (which I may consider using myself), then perhaps you can be able to make a better-informed decision down the road.


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## Daniel F. (Nov 15, 2016)

I'm sorry to break it to you $500 for what you people want is very hard to find. The only library I can think of is EW Hollywood Orchestra that has a extensive selection of articulations as well as individual sections. Otherwise you're going to have to go with something like Metropolis Ark. This is not a cheap business if you want professional sound you will have to pay a lot even for the less extensive libraries. And as Heroix said before you will have to do some mixing with EW because it's a fairly dry library out of the box and won't sound right if you don't know how to mix it.

If you are good at sound design and can make good synth sounds you don't need much from the orchestra if you want to make music like what you linked before. For what you linked I would say Metropolis ark would be a good choice. I have no idea about your background or how much you know about orchestration but even with metropolis ark you get some freedom when it comes to instrumentation since most of the patches are not ensemble but individual. MA1 even has a really great sounding choir, epic drums, drum kit and a lot more goodies.


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

I think the one of the biggest problem is that I don't exactly know, what I want to make in the core. I think I would love to do both as stated in my initial post, film scoring (which covers slow and calm music) and also the epic stuff. MA1 can't do slow and calm music, it's made for the FFF epic trailer music.

Eastwest Hollywood Orchestra Diamond will eat most of my budget up and then buying kontakt 5 + additional libraries like percussion will be pretty painful, while I'm afraid that Albion One will sound too big for again, the slow and calm part.

I think I will need to focus on only one genre for the beginning with this budget.. but then I'm afraid I'll pick up the wrong because I notice later, that I desire the other way. A never ending circle while I'm paralyzed and don't buy anything :D


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## MarcelM (Nov 15, 2016)

you will be limited if you choose an ensemble library like albion or MA1, but its also a bit more easy to get better results fast.

then again the diamond orchestra can produce anything from calm/emotional to epic but needs also a bit more work to get decent results. also its a matter of taste if you like the sound or not and ofcourse the price


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## Morodiene (Nov 15, 2016)

Voider said:


> I think the one of the biggest problem is that I don't exactly know, what I want to make in the core. I think I would love to do both as stated in my initial post, film scoring (which covers slow and calm music) and also the epic stuff. MA1 can't do slow and calm music, it's made for the FFF epic trailer music.
> 
> Eastwest Hollywood Orchestra Diamond will eat most of my budget up and then buying kontakt 5 + additional libraries like percussion will be pretty painful, while I'm afraid that Albion One will sound too big for again, the slow and calm part.
> 
> I think I will need to focus on only one genre for the beginning with this budget.. but then I'm afraid I'll pick up the wrong because I notice later, that I desire the other way. A never ending circle while I'm paralyzed and don't buy anything :D


Do you have anything at this point? With Kontakt Komplete you get not only the full version on Kontakt which some libraries will need, but also libraries that you can use to cut your teeth on and learn with. Not the best (the VSL libraries are limited), but it's something that at least won't be a complete waste once you upgrade with better libraries once you know what you want since the full Kontakt version is still useful.


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

Heroix said:


> then again the diamond orchestra can produce anything from calm/emotional to epic but needs also a bit more work to get decent results. also its a matter of taste if you like the sound or not and ofcourse the price



Yes but it costs around 150€ more than Albion One would cost me - for that price I could get Kontakt 5 (with my crossgrade + a 50% crossgrade sale soon) and another for example percussion library then would be manageable from there.



Morodiene said:


> Do you have anything at this point? With Kontakt Komplete you get not only the full version on Kontakt which some libraries will need, but also libraries that you can use to cut your teeth on and learn with. Not the best (the VSL libraries are limited), but it's something that at least won't be a complete waste once you upgrade with better libraries once you know what you want since the full Kontakt version is still useful.



DM-307, Ensemble Drums, Natural Forces and Vocalize, all by Heavyocity.
And Dune II as my synthesizer, practiced sounddesign one year with it.

That's why Komplete is a total waste of money for me, it includes like 10 synthesizers and just a bit of other stuff that I would maybe need. I also already got The Grandeur by NI as Piano so this is covered too. I did make a list and calculated, Komplete doesn't pay off for me.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 15, 2016)

Daniel F. said:


> Oh you would be surprised. If I were to go the aggressive and hybrid route I would look at hollywood orchestra. It's made by the guys from Two Steps from Hell and hollywood brass is the best sounding brass to date for the more aggressive stuff. From what I understand they use hollywood brass in their tracks from time to time. But century brass, the new library from 8Dio, sounds like it's going to feature some massive sounding brass.
> 
> And I would also recommend metropolis ark1 by orchestral tools if you want aggressive stuff. The brass is great and it's very powerful all around. You won't get the individual sections for strings and you won't get all the woodwinds that would make up a traditional orchestra but for epic stuff that's pretty high up.



You want aggressive, in your face strings and brass? Go Hollywood, it's freaking killer. Best part is, it comes rugged and straight forward right out of the box, but you can add a little Ohmicide, QL Spaces, etc for something truly vicious and...to the vast majority of casual music people...hard to tell from "the real deal".

I do not receive anything free from EW or Spitfire, but both companies are late in doing so.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Do you have anything at this point? With Kontakt Komplete you get not only the full version on Kontakt which some libraries will need, but also libraries that you can use to cut your teeth on and learn with. Not the best (the VSL libraries are limited), but it's something that at least won't be a complete waste once you upgrade with better libraries once you know what you want since the full Kontakt version is still useful.



Morodiene has a good point. Komplete Ultimate is literally STUFFED with useable instruments. Definitely not a bad choice to make there, period.


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

Ultimate is 1100€, that 600€ above my budget and since I'm just slowly starting out, I need something small to learn and to focus on. With 50 new instruments I won't be good at any in one year and probably more busy trying them all out instead of actually making music.

My only problem is that I need an orchestral library + Kontakt + a percussion library.
With Albion I can do that but it's not as versatile as EWHO, but with EWHO my budget is pretty exhausted and I will miss lots of good libraries that would need the full version of kontakt.

Of course I could just go for EWHO and a percussion library that doesn't require the full version of kontakt.. and buy kontakt someday. But that's not so easy since half of the market is bound to it.

Edit: And I also need a reverb plugin, I'm not satisfied with the stock one. It's okay but not more. I wantes to go with valhalla for 50 bucks, really good sound for just few money, but you see.. the budget is getting tighter.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 15, 2016)

We


Voider said:


> Ultimate is 1100€, that 600€ above my budget and since I'm just slowly starting out, I need something small to learn and to focus on. With 50 new instruments I won't be good at any in one year and probably more busy trying them all out instead of actually making music.
> 
> My only problem is that I need an orchestral library + Kontakt + a percussion library.
> With Albion I can do that but it's not as versatile as EWHO, but with EWHO my budget is pretty exhausted and I will miss lots of good libraries that would need the full version of kontakt.
> ...



Well Voider, you do get the (pretty darn killer) Darwin Percussion with Albion. I use those Taiko almost as much as the Stormdrum 3 and about as much as the (excellent) Evolution Taiko. I should mention, there is some truly excellent (and at times very quirkily inspiring) percussion in Komplete (with the Ultimate it's significantly cheaper iirc), including Session Drummer (though a bit of a cpu drainer), Damage (still better than good for trailers), and the more pleasingly out there Evolve libraries.


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

Yeah I like it too but people here said that the percussion in Albion One is not enough to replace a real percussion library. And no matter what's inside K11U I can't afford it.. anyway, especially from a sounddesign point of view, these 10 additional synthesizers are overkill for me. When it comes to sounddesign it is important to feel familiar with the interface and to know the synthesizer inside out to create the desired patches from scratch. I know mine and I'm happy with it and there is not much, Dune II can't do. So even if there is great value in K11U in the end, the whole beginning is kind of wasted for me..


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## Consona (Nov 15, 2016)

Voider said:


> Edit: And I also need a reverb plugin, I'm not satisfied with the stock one. It's okay but not more. I wantes to go with valhalla for 50 bucks, really good sound for just few money, but you see.. the budget is getting tighter.


If you need reverb only for kontakt sample libraries then don't buy anything since Kontakt convo reverb is really good. I have/had 2C B2, QL Spaces, tried Valhalla and some others and none of those made me stop using Kontakt's convo reverb. Some IRs sound great, IMO.


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

Consona said:


> If you need reverb only for kontakt sample libraries then don't buy anything since Kontakt convo reverb is really good. I have/had 2C B2, QL Spaces, tried Valhalla and some others and none of those made me stop using Kontakt's convo reverb. Some IRs sound great, IMO.



I would use it for my synthesizer too.
Does the reverb come with the full version of kontakt?


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## MarcelM (Nov 15, 2016)

play also has a build in reverb engine btw.

it also seems you already made your decision and go with albion one. its a good decision, but albion one doesnt sound as big as you might want maybe. you can have a look at daniel james review of albion one on youtube.

also the following cannot be done with it i guess.


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

I've seen the review, it's more the question now how I'm gonna manage my budget and what I want to start with..
These two examples of EWHO are pretty classic. Albion also has a pretty wide sound:


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## MarcelM (Nov 15, 2016)

well, you you could also start with the orchestra silver. its 149$ and there is nothing coming even close in that price range. you only have one mic position and a limited set of articulations, but i guess they are enuff for your type of music (seems you prefer epic). then go and buy valhalla vintage verb and you will be able to produce some epic stuff along with the libs you already have. cheapest option and not even a bad one! 

the 6fh patch rocks


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

When I upgrade do I pay extra or is it pretty exact the difference between the versions?


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## Morodiene (Nov 15, 2016)

Voider said:


> Ultimate is 1100€, that 600€ above my budget and since I'm just slowly starting out, I need something small to learn and to focus on. With 50 new instruments I won't be good at any in one year and probably more busy trying them all out instead of actually making music.
> 
> My only problem is that I need an orchestral library + Kontakt + a percussion library.
> With Albion I can do that but it's not as versatile as EWHO, but with EWHO my budget is pretty exhausted and I will miss lots of good libraries that would need the full version of kontakt.
> ...



Komplete is only $599 (not sure what that is in Euro), so you don't need Ultimate. What DAW do you have? Many of them come with decent enough reverbs that will suffice until you know better what you need and how to use it.


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> Komplete is only $599 (not sure what that is in Euro), so you don't need Ultimate. What DAW do you have? Many of them come with decent enough reverbs that will suffice until you know better what you need and how to use it.



Same price in euro and trust me, I've really calculated Komplete, why would I buy it now? It has nothing for orchestration but tons of synthesizers. That's at all not what I am looking for and the small things it has that would be useful here and there I can get anywhere for way less than 599€. 

I have compared my stock reverb with the trials of vintage verb and valhalla room and both sound a lot better.


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## MarcelM (Nov 15, 2016)

Voider said:


> When I upgrade do I pay extra or is it pretty exact the difference between the versions?



you pay extra most of the time. its weird since they dont always give discount (or same) discount on upgrades. sometimes then they have sales for upgrades. i started with silver btw and still use it and i also have albion one. for those soaring 6fh lines the brass is worth the price alone. you cannot do those with albion for example.

i dunno about your stock reverbs but for $50 dollar the valhalla stuff is very very good.


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

Heroix said:


> you pay extra most of the time. its weird since they dont always give discount (or same) discount on upgrades. sometimes then they have sales for upgrades. i started with silver btw and still use it and i also have albion one. for those soaring 6fh lines the brass is worth the price alone. you cannot do those with albion for example.



Just checked their upgrade prices, wtf? From silver to gold only is $665 without the sale.
That is how much gold alone costs.


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## MarcelM (Nov 15, 2016)

Voider said:


> Just checked their upgrade prices, wtf? From silver to gold only is $665 without the sale.
> That is how much gold alone costs.



yah thats what iam talking about. it seems they just dont adjust all the prices in the online shop. i was about to upgrade aswell, but it would be more cheap if i buy diamond so i wont do it!


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

Heroix said:


> yah thats what iam talking about. it seems they just dont adjust all the prices in the online shop. i was about to upgrade aswell, but it would be more cheap if i buy diamond so i wont do it!



Without a legit option to upgrade I won't go with a version like silver.. these are those little things I hate on eastwest, they are doing things here and there that are totally irrational and against the customer.


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## MarcelM (Nov 15, 2016)

Voider said:


> Without a legit option to upgrade I won't go with a version like silver.. these are those little things I hate on eastwest, they are doing things here and there that are totally irrational and against the customer.



i agree and i had my problems with them aswell, but thats a different story. also dont forget you will have to pay VAT which comes on top. whatever, its your choice now  if you go the spitfire route it will be the most expensive one if you plan to buy more librarys from them. though i have to say spitfire has the most realistic sound and i love it aswell. lots of options...


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## Voider (Nov 15, 2016)

No VAT for me when I proceed to checkout on their webpage. I wouldn't buy the version with shipping but only the one with the license only and download the sounddata.


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## Consona (Nov 15, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> the (excellent) Evolution Taiko


How good are higher velocity punches? I feel like they are not featured in demos enough to notice properly.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 16, 2016)

Consona said:


> How good are higher velocity punches? I feel like they are not featured in demos enough to notice properly.



Really good. I had to do some fiddling with that to make it work for individual projects, but hey, that's pretty much de rigueur for those instrument. Be prepared to fiddle, but knowing you will be rewarded.

Evo Taikos are both a good deal and excellent library. Rare.


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## spektralisk (Nov 18, 2016)

First proposition in this thread was Metropolis Ark 1 - so just letting you know that it will be on sale on Black Friday for 399eur which is actually less than Albion One (for me Albion One is for 459eur currently). I'm also looking out for starter overall library and I'm in between Albion One and Ark. If Spitfire would have sale going on Albion then I would probably go for Albion but in current situation I think Ark is much better deal.


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## Voider (Nov 18, 2016)

I know about the sale but Ark is too heavy as starter library because it's made for triple F - you can't score normal or even calm music with it. But thanks for the info


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## Consona (Nov 19, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> Really good. I had to do some fiddling with that to make it work for individual projects, but hey, that's pretty much de rigueur for those instrument. Be prepared to fiddle, but knowing you will be rewarded.
> 
> Evo Taikos are both a good deal and excellent library. Rare.


Could you upload some a few seconds long demo of highest velocity punches of Evo Taikos? I was listening to official demos again but I seriously cannot hear any ff to fff velocity layers.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

Hey guys! I finally need your help to make a final decision :D I know it's a long way until now and I'm very thankful for all your replies. I have my options all in front of me and only thinking about the last:

Let's say I have a budget of 650€, and I would go with single libraries and pick up Cinematic Studio Strings for 350€ during black friday sale. So I need Brass, Woodwinds and Percussion for another 300€. Any ideas?

The Hollywood Brass Gold is 129€ at the moment. Do you know other brass libraries in that price range or that will probably be % off on black friday? What percussion library would you recommend?

Also, I could go with CS2 instead of CSS which is around 100€ cheaper, but CSS has a very much better sound compared to CS2, hasn't it?

I don't know if this idea is stupid but let's see what we come up with. :D


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## Ashermusic (Nov 20, 2016)

I don't think it is accurate to say that "CSS has a very much better sound compared to CS2." it is a different sound, more lush, less detailed.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

CSS is way more detailed, I listened to direct comparisons yesterday.
But you are right that might be just a matter of taste.


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## Ashermusic (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> CSS is way more detailed, I listened to direct comparisons yesterday.
> But you are right that might be just a matter of taste.



We are now, in my view, in the era where there are probably at least a dozen excellent but different sounding choices with differing strengths and weaknesses for every orchestral section.

I think that if you that if you randomly chose one of each and were told you would only have those choices to compose with, you could be just fine. 

Fortunately, however, we don't have to.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

Since you worked for EW and know their stuff, serious question: Do I need a SSD to run the libraries fine?
From Zhao Shens Website about HO Strings:



> Huge resource hog, has a few inconsistencies and bugs. If you want to use it without great inconvenience, SSD is a must.



I've got an i5-4670 @3,40Ghz (4 cores)
8GB Ram
2x 1 Terrabyte WD Blue HDD
Windows 10


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## Naoki Ohmori (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> Hey guys! I finally need your help to make a final decision :D I know it's a long way until now and I'm very thankful for all your replies. I have my options all in front of me and only thinking about the last:
> 
> Let's say I have a budget of 650€, and I would go with single libraries and pick up Cinematic Studio Strings for 350€ during black friday sale. So I need Brass, Woodwinds and Percussion for another 300€. Any ideas?
> 
> ...



CS2 and CSS are both great and CS2 has its own strength but if you have €350, I highly recommend CSS because it's more versatile and covers major articulations. 

As for competitors to HW Brass in the price range, I think it would be Impact SoundWorks Bravura Scorings Brass. If it's on sale, the full version price could be $200 and the ensemble bundle could be $149. 
If you have a full Kontakt, you can purchase a single instrument from $39, say solo trumpet or horn. And then you can upgrade the full version later. 

Upgrade prices = the price of the full version – the price of the instruments you purchased. 
For more info about the upgrade system, check out the site. 

Good luck!


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## Ashermusic (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> Since you worked for EW and know their stuff, serious question: Do I need a SSD to run the libraries fine?
> From Zhao Shens Website about HO Strings:
> 
> 
> ...




The fact that you ony have 8 GB is a bigger issue than the SSDs.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

Ashermusic said:


> The fact that you ony have 8 GB is a bigger issue than the SSDs.



RAM is very cheap to upgrade, an SSD would cost a bit more.
But I didn't have any problems with 8GB of Ram yet. How much would I need for HO?



Naoki Ohmori said:


> As for competitors to HW Brass in the price range, I think it would be Impact SoundWorks Bravura Scorings Brass. If it's on sale, the full version price could be $200 and the ensemble bundle could be $149.
> If you have a full Kontakt, you can purchase a single instrument from $39, say solo trumpet or horn. And then you can upgrade the full version later.



I only see the 299€ price on the page..


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## Ashermusic (Nov 20, 2016)

For a full Diamond template, at least 20 GB.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

And for gold?


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## Ashermusic (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> And for gold?



Not sure, never tested it it. But less because the samples are 16 bit rather than 24.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

Hmm.. all right. I think 16GB should be enough then.. but first I need to see what library I get anyway and how it runs.


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> Last question, I promise I will deceide and buy afterwards! :D Because I am so tired of overthinking and just want to start and I will probably be happy with whatever I chose because there is so much to learn.
> 
> How does Symphobia 1 compare to Hollywood Orchestra? I can imagine that they will run a sale on friday and then it could be very interesting..
> 
> ...



It's good to think things out. HO Gold is an excellent choice...though again, you could just stay on Composer Cloud, which would give you access to much more. But hey, either way you ultimately win.


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> Last question, I promise I will deceide and buy afterwards! :D Because I am so tired of overthinking and just want to start and I will probably be happy with whatever I chose because there is so much to learn.
> 
> How does Symphobia 1 compare to Hollywood Orchestra? I can imagine that they will run a sale on friday and then it could be very interesting..



Symphobia 1 is more like Albion One, you won't get separate sections, like Violins 1, Violins 2, Trumpets, Horns, etc, but you'll get a lot of different ensemble patches, which are handy for quick composing, and the sound is great too. Hollywood Orchestra on the other hand is very comprehensive and conventional package, and if you think of a symphonic orchestra, which has violins 1, violins 2, etc, Hollywood Orchestra has all that.

I think with the new Play 5 you can't go wrong with HO Gold. With the earlier versions I got frustrated with Play, and started to get Kontakt libraries, but now I'm back using HO Gold.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> It's good to think things out. HO Gold is an excellent choice...though again, you could just stay on Composer Cloud, which would give you access to much more. But hey, either way you ultimately win.



Yeah but I've got so much to learn and I will be better off focusing on the HO which is enough for a very long time.  And I like to own it ! I can still sign up for composer cloud if I want to test any other product or need something for a short project.



sekkosiki said:


> I think with the new Play 5 you can't go wrong with HO Gold. With the earlier versions I got frustrated with Play, and started to get Kontakt libraries, but now I'm back using HO Gold.



I just let go of fear xD

One of you two doesn't have experience with everyplugin.com?


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## Consona (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> Last question, I promise I will deceide and buy afterwards! :D Because I am so tired of overthinking and just want to start


In my experience, no amount of over-thinking will save you from buying something that you won't use at all in the future or from being in the state that you don't need to buy anything else. I had spreadsheet lists full of possible alternatives of what to buy with my budget and once I bought some things I've realized that was not what I was looking for sound-wise or content-wise or workflow-wise, etc. Now I know what are the things that work for me, I know what things in demos I have to pay attention to, etc. But all those things come with some practise, you cannot learn them without putting your hand on things, trying them out, etc. So just buy something, start composing with it and you'll see your next direction in buying additional stuff.


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## Naoki Ohmori (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> RAM is very cheap to upgrade, an SSD would cost a bit more.
> But I didn't have any problems with 8GB of Ram yet. How much would I need for HO?
> 
> 
> ...



I said $200 was the sale price. Probably Isworks will hold a Black Friday or Christmas sale.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

@Ashermusic I asked everyplugins.com via email about buying from them,
and they said they are one of eastwest's distributors. Do you know if that's true?


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## Parsifal666 (Nov 20, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> Symphobia 1 is more like Albion One, you won't get separate sections, like Violins 1, Violins 2, Trumpets, Horns, etc, but you'll get a lot of different ensemble patches, which are handy for quick composing, and the sound is great too. Hollywood Orchestra on the other hand is very comprehensive and conventional package, and if you think of a symphonic orchestra, which has violins 1, violins 2, etc, Hollywood Orchestra has all that.
> 
> I think with the new Play 5 you can't go wrong with HO Gold. With the earlier versions I got frustrated with Play, and started to get Kontakt libraries, but now I'm back using HO Gold.



I'll never get over the* sound* of the EW Brass, it can be just as monumental or ornamental as you want it. It's so great I don't own any specifically "brass" libraries, just the Albion stuff like Iceni (which is monumental in tone as well).


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 20, 2016)

Parsifal666 said:


> I'll never get over the* sound* of the EW Brass, it can be just as monumental or ornamental as you want it. It's so great I don't own any specifically "brass" libraries, just the Albion stuff like Iceni (which is monumental in tone as well).



True, it's very versatile, in fact the whole Hollywood Orchestra is.



Voider said:


> I just let go of fear xD



Good for you xD


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

One question while waiting for some official reply by eastwest about distributors,
it's better to install the orchestra on the same HDD where my DAW is or can I just put it on a second HDD?
Because I have one that is pretty much clean with a lot of space.


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 20, 2016)

Voider said:


> One question while waiting for some official reply by eastwest about distributors,
> it's better to install the orchestra on the same HDD where my DAW is or can I just put it on a second HDD?
> Because I have one that is pretty much clean with a lot of space.



Optimal would be a separate drive from where your daw is, and ssd especially for Hollywood Orchestra and Play 5 is preferable.


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## MarcelM (Nov 20, 2016)

it doesnt make a difference. i had the hollywood libs once on the ssd drive where my daw is and never had a problem.

usually its still good to spread librays on different drives, so if you have the option you should do it.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

So, my DAW on C, HO on D?

Well problem might be a too hard word,
but maybe it was faster on a separate HDD?


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## ghandizilla (Dec 1, 2016)

The best starter kit available now would be this deal -> http://vi-control.net/community/posts/4023493/


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## ghandizilla (Dec 1, 2016)

It's also a nice color-adder I guess, so it would work perfectly nice as a complement.


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## Fleer (Dec 1, 2016)

That orchestral bundle from ImpactSoundworks at $99 is quite the deal.


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