# Demo of Kirk Hunter's new strings



## Ashermusic (Sep 29, 2009)

http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/tvec2.html


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## Fernando Warez (Sep 29, 2009)

The detacher seems to be nice and expressive. The last runs seem to work well but i hear a big metallic tale in the reverb...


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## MacQ (Sep 29, 2009)

Hmm ... sounds fizzy to me. Not my thing.

~Stu


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## janila (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

I'm puzzled. The samples sound promising (especially coming from KH, his old concert strings are the worst thing I've ever bought) and the programming is ok but the reverb is horrifying. Usually people who can do such demos can also mix.


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## Fernando Warez (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



janila @ Tue Sep 29 said:


> I'm puzzled. The samples sound promising (especially coming from KH, his old concert strings are the worst thing I've ever bought) and the programming is ok but the reverb is horrifying. Usually people who can do such demos can also mix.



That's exactly how i feel.


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## zareone (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

That reverb sounds so bad it distracts me from listening to the strings. What have they used? PSP Piano verb sounds better!! 

Some of the runs sound very good, but others seem to cut without release samples and sound fake (at 1:39 for example) Some of the fast repetitions at the end sound a bit machine gun too (around 2:00). 

I hope Arne develops WIVI Strings next year, and LASS Lite become a reality, since I'm just a poor hobbyst.
o/~ 

O.T: the new website is better than the old one, but still not up to the level of VSL, EWQL, and others (Wallander, Tonehammer, ProjectSAM...)

And what about the testimonials? Some of them don't even mention KH's products. Have a read at Alan Silvestri or David Newman. Do I have to suppose they use KH products??


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## Pzy-Clone (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

I think it its too ambitious attempting to do Vivaldi, sorry but this is a slaughter.

I "wish" the KH stuff wouldnt have the enormous amount of added hi-end that for some reason always seems to be there. 
I dunno why, and it makes them sound rather cheap imo.

Anyway, the mix is not so great, id like to hear these new strings without the synthetic reverb doing something less pretentious, if possible ?

There`s potential, loose the eq and reverb, and lets see.


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## Blackster (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

I'm happy I bought LASS.  ... Nothing against KH himself, but his libraries never caught me ... unfortunately the same with this one. 

And I guess you guys are totally right what the sound of the demo is concerned. It's no pleasure to listen to it .... that's a pity.


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## dcoscina (Sep 29, 2009)

I like Kirk's smaller libs but following LASS is a hard act if not possible. I think it's okay sounding but the 'verb is bad and I wouldn't mind hearing something a little more contemporary just to see how they would work. Not that I'm planning on buying them- LASS is fine for me.


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## tmhuud (Sep 29, 2009)

I am very disappointed. :( I have always been a fan of KH but what on earth? Near the end of the Vivaldi piece it almost sounds like there are cymbals. If thats the reverb maybe it can be fixed. If its in the samples...


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## dcoscina (Sep 29, 2009)

Kirk just posted something on a thread at NSS dedicated to LASS.... Maybe it's just me but I think that's cheap. Advertise on your own darn thread dude.

Mind you, since he did chime in, I had to tell it like it is. Kirk's new library may as well be Roland U-20 strings when it comes to comparing them to LASS. Straight up. I have yet to hear strings that represent a huge jump towards realism, expressiveness and responsiveness as Andrew's.

Edit- I will say this seems to be out of character- I have dealt with Kirk before and he's always been ultra professional and courteous. A very helpful fellow in fact... so I'm a little miffed. :roll:


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## RiffWraith (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

Why would you , in this day and age, put a 44.1/192 .mp3 up on your site as a demo of a product you are trying to sell? I hear the compression and artifacts. Why not make it 48/320? Doesn't make sense. Anyway, not impressed at all. Sorry.


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## choc0thrax (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



RiffWraith @ Tue Sep 29 said:


> Why would you , in this day and age, put a 44.1/192 .mp3 up on your site as a demo of a product you are trying to sell? I hear the compression and artifacts. Why not make it 48/320? Doesn't make sense. Anyway, not impressed at all. Sorry.



Maybe it's actually better at 192 since it's harder to hear how bad it is.


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## muziksculp (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

PASS ! 

I listened to the demo, and I was not a bit surprised, KH's libraries never clicked with my taste. I thought this would be an exception to his past releases, but that's not the case. 

Does he really think these strings sound great ? Quite puzzling >8o


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## mixolydian (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



zareone @ Tue Sep 29 said:


> I hope Arne develops WIVI Strings next year, and LASS Lite become a reality, since I'm just a poor hobbyst.
> o/~


As Arne stated his software is not for "poor hobbyists". :roll:


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## tcollins (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

OK, here's another viewpoint for the sake of anyone who reads this thread and dismisses Kirk Hunter's libraries because of it. Just my opinion. 
I bought KH Emerald and Concert Strings and have been using them for over a year. To me, they are incredibly expressive and playable right out of the box. Especially the violins in legato lines. The "Bonus Concert Strings" (that came with Emerald) contains a combination patch that has only one velocity layer but is so beautiful and has saved me untold hours of tweaking time.

Also, it is great that you can buy a section at a time from KH. This is a great help to those who can't afford to pay out a big chunk of cash at a time.
http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/purchase_sections.html

Maybe his demo could be better, but it sounds good enough to sell me on his new library.

In the end, this kind of thing is so subjective. We all work a little differently and what works for one composer not so much for another.

Other than being a customer, I have no connection with KH.

TC


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## MuzkGuy (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

FYI, I was merely answering a direct question from a poster there at NS. You should know that not only do I adveritse on NS, but I have been courteously avoiding posting anything on ANY forum for quite some time so as to avoid such issues. And the moment that I actually post something that is germain to the thread, I get accused of poaching.

I have always maintained what I think to be one of the best customer service reputations around. I always take phone calls, always answer email if I can, etc. So to get slammed here this way in this manner gives me pause as to the nature of this particular group.

As for the demo, Martin accidentally gave me one of the rejected ones, which I (stupidly) didn't listen to before I posted it. My bad. We've been under the gun to get this beast out for a long time now, and I've been slow only so as to make sure that the best is to come. So when the demos came down to me, I simply posted them due to the fact that I'm trying like He$$ to get this product to you. I'll personally post a new one tomorrow with the right reverb. Also, the fact that the Vivaldi was chosen was merely because I felt that doing such a thing was a really big challenge, and I like challenges. I'd like to see someone else try to do such a thing. If it can be done better, KUDOS to that! It's a killer to attempt to get this kind of piece to sound good. I think it's pretty easy to design demos that cater to a library. But it's hard to make a library cater to a given piece.

I don't mean to personally sound defensive in the post, but trust me...a LOT of work has gone into this, and for folks to react in such a manner without credit toward what I believe to be a great track record (especially with customer support) puzzles me. This is especially true of some of my "loyal" customers. (I know who you are)


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## nikolas (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes,

Actually I got the very same impression. Kirk did not high jack the NS thread by any means. He was merely replying to a direct question to him and about his products.


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## bryla (Sep 29, 2009)

Funny, when people hear those demos where the library plays what it plays well they hurry and waste their money, only to complain about not hearing demos that show the limitations of the library. Here you actually have a library that's honest and shows what goes and what goes not.... ? weird ?

Kirk I like, and have been waiting to hear it. now where's the price?


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## zareone (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



mixolydian @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> zareone @ Tue Sep 29 said:
> 
> 
> > I hope Arne develops WIVI Strings next year, and LASS Lite become a reality, since I'm just a poor hobbyst.
> ...



I currently have WIVI Brass and Woodwinds 1 and 2, and I LOVE them. I'm saving money so when he releases the strings I can buy them. Maybe they're not the most realistic, but they're the most expressive instruments I've ever tried.

I'm a "poor" hobbyst that saves every penny for music software/hardware. :lol:


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 29, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

OK. Reading through this thread before listening to the demo made me expect a trainwreck. Come on guys! The first slower part sounds quite nice, and the later part sounds passable, and no worse then many other offerings. Sure the reverb is harsh, but still.


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## noiseboyuk (Sep 30, 2009)

I think this is another thread that is a developer warning - I can well understand the pressures and deadlines, but these early demos are really important, aren't they? The internet spreads conjecture, instant opinion and rumour like wildfire. I have every sympathy with KH, I hope the new demo version shows off the library in a better light and some of the early posters will hear some better qualities of the library.

LASS has clearly engendered so much love, it's a tough act for any other library to follow. I'm glad the other posters chimed in to show that different people are after different things.

Based on what I heard, I think there might be a good deal more potential than those first reactions would suggest. FWIW, initially I even thought the reverb was fine, and wondered if it was a new version! But then it was clear on the faster section that this is indeed still the problem verb - I know what you mean about cymbals, Terry!

All the best, Kirk - hope you're able to get some new demos online soon, I'll be looking forward to them.


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## Stevie (Sep 30, 2009)

You guys are all complaining about the reverb.
Did no one notice these strings sound nasal as hell? I first thought this is a new synth library.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/demos/vivaldi_summer2.mp3 (http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/demos/ ... ummer2.mp3)

is this the demo y'all are hating so much? I actually need to check, 'cause though I don't exactly love it, I think it's pretty good/ok, and there's no way it deserves the vitriol it's gotten. Tough crowd. Glad I'm not a developer.


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## zareone (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

OK, the problem is the reverb sounded SO bad to me that I focused on it and forgot to comment on the samples... 

I think the performance, compared with other sample libraries is OK. I couldn't get that performance at this time with my knowledge (or lack of, better said) and samples. The piece is not that easy. 

I haven't any doubt that the making of this product has been a hard task, but at the end, what counts for customers is not the efforts, but the results. I have KH Emerald, and think it's very nice for the price I paid, but the samples have something I can't get used to, so I went with VSL SE Strings, and even if they're cut down versions of a bigger product, they fit my needs and I like the homogeneity of the recordings.

I hope some new demos are put online, showing how this new library can shine. A new wave of string libraries is coming, and it's better to have something to offer that the competitors haven't, be it features, a lower price... But divisi is now gonna be the norm. Performance / repetition control too. 

I wonder which will GOS2 have to offer, since it's at least 3 years late. :evil:


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## Raindog (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

I´m a long time KH customer ("poor hobbyist") and because I read some silly and pretty unfair comments I would like to chime in.òCs   ±oCs   ±oCt   ±o Ct   ±o!Ct   ±o"Ct   ±o#Ct   ±o$Ct   ±o%Ct   ±o&Ct   ±o'Ct   ±o(Ct   ±o)Ct   ±o*Ct   ±o+Ct   ±o,Ct   ±o-Ct   ±o.Ct   ±o/Ct   ±o0Ct   ±o1Ct   ±o2Ct   ±o3Ct   ±o4Ct   ±o5Ct   ±o6Ct   ±o7Ct   ±o8Ct   ±o9Ct   ±o:Ct   ±o;Ct   ±o<Ct   ±o=Ct   ±o>Ct   ±o?Ct   ±[email protected]Ct   ±oACt   ±oBCt   ±oCCt   ±oDCt   ±oECt   ±oFCt   ±oGCt   ±oHCt   ±oICt   ±oJCt   ±oKCt   ±oLCt   ±oMCt   ±oNCt   ±oOCt   ±oPCt   ±oQCt   ±oRCt   ±oSCt   ±oTCt   ±oUCt   ±oVCt   ±oWCt   ±oXCt   ±oYCt   ±oZCt   ±o[Ct   ±o\Ct   ±o]Ct   ±o^Ct   ±o_Ct   ±o`Ct   ±oaCt   ±obCt   ±ocCt   ±odCt   ±oeCt   ±ofCt   ±ogCt   ±ohCt   ±oiCu   ±ojCu   ±okCu   ±olCu   ±omCv   ±onCv   ±ooCw   ±opCw   ±oqCw   ±orCw   ±osCw   ±otCw   ±ouCw   ±ovCw   ±owCw   ±oxCw   ±oyCw   ±ozCw   ±o{Cw   ±o|Cw   ±o}Cw   ±o~Cw   ±oCw   ±o€Cw   ±oCw   ±o‚Cw   ±oƒCw   ±o„Cw   ±o…Cw   ±o†Cw   ±o‡Cw   ±oˆCw   ±o‰Cw   ±oŠCw   ±o‹Cw   ±oŒCw   ±o              òCw   ±oCw   ±oCw   ±o‘Cw   ±o’Cw   ±o“Cw   ±o”Cw   ±o•Cw   ±o–Cw   ±o—Cw   ±o˜Cw   ±o™Cw   ±ošCw   ±o›Cw   ±oœ


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2009)

Sorry Kirk. I did not mean to slam you. It was a bad move on my part to take something from one forum and reference it here.

However, I maintain a healthy respect for your customer service and business practices (I do believe I said as much in my posts on this forum as well as on NSS)


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## RiffWraith (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> We all like and use Kirk's strings. So do none of us know what real strings sound like?



All? All??? That's a joke, right? We all use KH strings? Really? We all like KH strings? Really? And even if it's not _all_ of us who use KH strings - you are going to tell me that every single person that does use them likes them? Really? No - want to know why I say no? Because there is already one person _in this very thread _that doesn't. So I guess it's not all. And if it's not all, maybe...ummm, I don't know...let's see here... maybe it's because some people do not know what a real string section should sound like?



Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> And people call ME arrogant.



Well if you do stuff like this, yeah, people are going to call you arrogant. Did you actually read your post? It spews nothing but arrogance. Plus the fact that I was speaking to someone else makes your post all the _more_ arrogant. If you don't agree with what I said - fine, you are entitled. But to jump in the way you did is not only unnecessary it's, well, arrogant. My post however, was not arrogant. It would have been if I said that I know what a real string section should sound like. I never made that claim. But your post insinuates that I did. See - more arrogance.


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## lux (Sep 30, 2009)

Vi control is becoming quite a predictable place. 

I predicted the whole flowing of this thread before the first reply appeared. I predict how it will flow from now too.

Really annoying. I cant see a normal/technical discussion anymore. Most is shit, accusative, harsh, defensive, hypish, ironic. But mostly shit, no matter how much you think i'm an ass.

Fact is that most of the good "technical" contributors stopped writing or write very rarely. a bit sad.


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## Christian Marcussen (Sep 30, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > We all like and use Kirk's strings. So do none of us know what real strings sound like?
> ...



Are you joking? 

Jay obviously did not mean "all" as in "everyone in the world" - but rather himself, and the other people he mentioned in his post (Like Jeff Beal).


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2009)

I think the thing to remember is that real strings recorded don't sound the same as live strings. Recording does flatten out some of the sound and I have heard real recordings where the strings sounded fake. The one thing that normally saves them is the variations in the expression and the intonation. All those people playing in unison is the key. 

I only have Kirk's Sapphire which admittedly is the smallest of his libraries but I enjoy it for what it is and still marry it with larger libraries because it does have a place in the mix. 

I will say that whenever a developer advertises on a public forum such as this, they must be prepared to get both accolades and cynicism because this is a very subjective field we're in when it comes to assessing realism in samples.


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## TheoKrueger (Sep 30, 2009)

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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2009)

If Kirk brings this in at half the price point of LASS, I could see some people happily jumping at it. If it's only a couple hundred $$ off though, it makes me wonder what demographic would buy it. Then of course Andrew has been tòC“   ±tlC“   ±tmC“   ±tnC“   ±toC“   ±tpC“   ±tqC“   ±trC“   ±tsC“   ±ttC“   ±tuC“   ±tvC“   ±twC“   ±txC“   ±tyC“   ±tzC“   ±t{C“   ±t|C“   ±t}C“   ±t~C“   ±tC“   ±t€C“   ±tC“   ±t‚C“   ±tƒC“   ±t„C“   ±t…


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## mderrico (Sep 30, 2009)

I too read this thread and expected a horrible demo, but once I listened to it, I thought it was pretty good too. The first part did sound nice and musical.

Yeah, the reverb is harsh, but the strings sounded pretty good to me. I'm anxious to hear the new demo.


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## choc0thrax (Sep 30, 2009)

Elements of this thread give me horrible flashbacks of Houston Haynes and his resume.

What would be cool is if someone mocked up the same piece using the strings in Omnisphere. A little competition to spice things up.


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## sirbellog (Sep 30, 2009)

Just to say that I'm in the minority (probably plagued with bad taste, bad ears, and poor judgment) who liked -rather than disliked- what was heard in this demo.

Now, will I buy it soon, I can't say :
- my strings arnesal is by now sufficient for my modest hobbyist's needs
- I'd need to hear more than that to make a more definitive opinion.

Nevertheless I was shocked to find in this thread what sounds -at least to me- like such a condensed amount of unfairness, contempt, disregard for one's hard work, unjustified malicious words.

Yesterday I read on another forum someone's post, saying that it was great to live in a time when a customer has the opportunity of a closer relationship with developers, more precisely the ones who run human-sized companies.

Well, I fear that with so massively hostile attitudes as this, those human-sized companies will disapear one by one.

Keep up the good work, Kirk : granted, despite your efforts I still do not like your website, and am not always totally satisified with my results using your libs, but since it happens with other products too, about this I'm aware that the problem is more my meagre skills than the tools at my disposal.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 30, 2009)

First, I liked how the Vivaldi demo showed musicality, energy and nuances. Who did that certainly knows the music and can be expressive. And there is a possibility that the programming shares its part to this.

Soundwise I think this person is not hearing the same as I do. It may be a monitoring issue, a mixing problem or in samples. If I should guess I would say a smaller problem in the records (phasing?) has been corrected but not sufficiently (low pass EQ?) and this then again been overcompensated in the mix (big boost at 8 - 16 kHz). On top of that comes the wrong reverb choice. I think I have used the older KH libraries with better results (sonically), so there is hope.


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## tradivoro (Sep 30, 2009)

I also use Kirk Hunter libraries, I own his previous ones, I'm very happy with the sound, I'm looking forward to more demos of this new library...


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

dcoscina @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> If Kirk brings this in at half the price point of LASS, I could see some people happily jumping at it. If it's only a couple hundred $$ off though, it makes me wonder what demographic would buy it. Then of course Andrew has been talking about Lass Lite which is likely to bring in people who may have gone the CinemaStrings route or KH route or even HS route.
> 
> Hey, it's a great time to be buying libraries like these since there's so much healthy competition!



There are other possible reasons than price.

Let me say in advance unambiguously: NONE OF WHAT I NOW WRITE IS IN ANY WAY A KNOCK ON ANDREW OR LASS.

I do not own LASS but my understanding is that it requires a bit of a learning curve to use well, which perhaps accounts for the fact that even though many here have apparently purchased it, we have not heard a torrent of terrific Member Compositions using it. SO perhaps, Kirk's TVEC 2 keyswitch programming is a little simpler to use. If I am wrong, some of you will quire rightly correct me.

Another is the sound. From what I have heard of LASS it is not as big sounding as Kirk's.

Third may be what your blending with. The Ruby strings blend very well with the Sonic Implants strings to create a sound I really like. When Cinematic Strings and EW Hollywood strings come out, there will also be more blending choices and for many of you, LASS plus one of those will be your blend of choice.

LASS is a terrific library and Andrew is a great guy and we all, including me, want to be highly supportive of him. I feel the same way about Kirk. Folks here have to accept that there are differing tastes and the fact that someone prefers the sound and features of another library does not mean that they have a deficient knowledge of what (recorded) strings sound like.

I flat out reject the idea that there is any string library out today that is simply in a different league sonically than many others.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

RiffWraith @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > We all like and use Kirk's strings. So do none of us know what real strings sound like?
> ...



By "al" I meant myself and the composers I mentioned. 

And it certainly read that you were implying that Tcollins, who liked the demo and KH strings, perhaps did not know what real strings sound like or he would not have liked these

I call that an arrogant statement.l


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

Ed @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> First impressions...
> 
> Thin and nasal. Did sort of sound like a synth, in fact reminded me of Korg Triton string patches at the start. But I agree with others here about the reverb, wtf is up with that? I think a lot of problems would be fixed if you mixed it better.
> 
> ...



To be fair, Kirk likes his strings to be bright. That is his sound. I do tend to EQ some of the highs out and bled them with less bright strings.

But there is no library today that I would not do some EQ and blending to sound the way I want.

Just to provide another perspective, my wife, who is not a musician, has been married to me since 1976. She has obviously heard me use a lot of samples since then. When I played the demo for her, her jaw dropped and she said, "That sounds amazing."

Many of your clients, for those of you who do this for a living, may also not be musicians and may be less sophisticated than my wife. So, horses for courses.


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2009)

Would someone explain all the vitriol and the forceful attacks to me?

You listen to a demo. 20 seconds in, you realize you don't like the sound. You stop listening. Including download time, you might have wasted 30 seconds.

You want to let others know how you feel. You comment that you don't care for the sound of the demo, or the library. Fine, but why the hostile tone, the personalizing, the junior high sniping? In what way other than demonstrating one's feelings of powerlessness in one's personal life is this productive in any way? Is there a good fight being fought here and I'm just missing it? 

This is NOT a rhetorical set of questions.


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## Jaap (Sep 30, 2009)

Before we enter the fragile field of musicality and how real strings sounds I want to point out we should avoid that for now.

The Kirk Hunter string library will NOT come close to reality nor does this demo give good insight in musicality by showing this to the public.

However I am NOT stating this will be a bad library. I think as for all products from mr Hunter it will serve a great public very well and for sure this library will also do, but this comes NOT close to reality (nor the sound, nor the performance)

http://www.3peakaudio.com/music/snapshot_of_live_recording.mp3 (http://www.3peakaudio.com/music/snapsho ... ording.mp3)

Just to show how it sounds live. Of course this can't'be accomplised by ANY library up to date.

Edit: fixed link by renaming - Live recording is done by Il Giardino Armonico


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Would someone explain all the vitriol and the forceful attacks to me?
> 
> You listen to a demo. 20 seconds in, you realize you don't like the sound. You stop listening. Including download time, you might have wasted 30 seconds.
> 
> ...



Thank you! How many times have I said that that is the sometimes toxic element of this forum. 

I hear a lot of demos for libraries here. If I like it, I say so. If I do not, most of the time I say nothing or once in a while if I am asked directly I will say, "Not to my taste."

And BTW, want to have a little fun? Jot down the names of those who make the harshest comments. Then go to the Member's Composition Review and see how many offerings they have posted. Decide if you think that is mere coincidence.

There is a lot of "I can't do it but I know when I hear it if it is done right" attitude here.


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## germancomponist (Sep 30, 2009)

Dynamitec @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> I think it's really a bad choice for a demo. It's a really hard piece and it definitely shows a lot of limits (especially when the fast part begings, the tremolo sounds very mechanical).
> 
> But I think it's not really fair to judge a library because of one (not so great) demo. Nobody knows how fast this demo was put togehter or who actually did it.
> 
> ...



+1 o-[][]-o


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## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Would someone explain all the vitriol and the forceful attacks to me?
> ...



Even harsh comments can simply be on point, rather than over the top 'toxic', as you say. My question stands: for those of you who were really murderous in your expressions, why? Were you offended? "*THIS IS NOT A FIT OFFERING TO ZOD-THE BEHEADING SHALL COMMENCE AT DAWN"*

??


----------



## Jaap (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

I think most comments are actually just honest ....

It seems like the deffenders are more "offended".

I find it bad on ways of musicality, sampling, mixing, but is that harsh? No. It's honest. I said it in a polite way as many others and also stated it could be a nice library till some extend if we were shown a different demo, but for now the demo is not showing the strenghts of the library.

In the end this is to help mr Hunter as well. He can read feedback and if he makes changes and listens to the positive and negative feedback he receives and works that out in a good way, he can even sell more. I dont think most of us have the intention to slap mr Hunter in the ground.


----------



## NYC Composer (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

Oh, puhleeze. Read through the thread again.


----------



## Niah (Sep 30, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> There are other possible reasons than price.
> 
> Let me say in advance unambiguously: NONE OF WHAT I NOW WRITE IS IN ANY WAY A KNOCK ON ANDREW OR LASS.
> 
> ...



For some reason there seems to be this general idea that LASS has a big learning curve when in reality that's not really the case. Andrew has posted some tutorials where you can hear him playing lines in real time - and it is as easy as it sounds. Play the line and ride the modwheel for dynamics. It plays legato of course and if you want portamento just play it softly, plus it is all adjustable.

I posted a quick demo right after I bought it that I made in a matter of minutes. It was well received as I recall and it was mostly to show how easy it is to just play with it.

You don't need to own it either, everything is very well presented on the tutorials and manual which are free to download of course.

if there hasn't been that many good demos made with LASS, maybe that's not LASS fault? :roll: 

Well "big sound" is kind of subjective but if you use all the divisi sections you'll be fine. Of course I don't think you can get as big though than symphobia which is ensemble based. But making things sounds big is easy you just layer and stack and you can blend anything IMO as long as you know a little bit of mixing and music production.


----------



## Jaap (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



NYC Composer @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Oh, puhleeze. Read through the thread again.



Beside the post from Repeat, which is a bit too expressive maybe, I don't think any of the other people have posted offending posts. Pzy-clone was maybe a bit expressive with using the word "slaugher", but first of all he put it in between brackets and gave afterwards a reasonable explination. So I still don't see the whole fuzz actually.

Edit: agree with Niah above. LASS doesn't has a really steap learning curve and sounds good out of the box.


----------



## lux (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



> For some reason there seems to be this general idea that LASS has a big learning curve when in reality that's not really the case



well, more than one skilled member affirmed that, both publicy and privately to me. 

Another point is that, from what i've heard, my computer couldnt even handle it alone, go figure with brass woodwinds and percussions. Actually i manage Platinum XP pretty well with my one machine.

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----------



## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Niah @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > And BTW, want to have a little fun? Jot down the names of those who make the harshest comments. Then go to the Member's Composition Review and see how many offerings they have posted. Decide if you think that is mere coincidence.
> ...



It is also factually accurate.

And BTW, how junior high is it to list your location as LASS City and thank Andrew in your signature?

Do you still have posters of your favorite band on your bedroom wall?

Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## lux (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Niah @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> lux @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > > For some reason there seems to be this general idea that LASS has a big learning curve when in reality that's not really the case
> ...



Well, i was referring, as example, to re-peat's frustraction i heard in one of the early demo posts with Lass.

Thats good to know because i have almost the same setup. How many articulations can you load with it? I mean, can you have at least one legato, one staccato/spiccato, one pizz and one tremolo for each section? Of course you will need more articulations, but this is a barebones requisite at least.

yeah, i was not accusing you to put Lass in the field, i know its mostly mentioned. Just i think sometimes it could be not exactly a focused comparison.


----------



## Jaap (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Hannes_F @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Jaap @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Before we enter the fragile field of musicality and how real strings sounds I want to point out we should avoid that for now.
> ...



The reason I mentioned to avoid musicality is because of the lack of insight on how to produce a good demo. For me the demo has too many flaws now to focus on musicality. A good demo has a balance between showing the sonic quality of the samples and present them in a "healthy" and musical environment. The fact that this did not happen takes for me away the discussion about musicality.

I think it serves mr Hunter better to give insight on what we think of the general demo overall then to dive into the more fragile world of musicality which is a step further in my opinion.

As I stated also in my first post I could hear as well some sparkles of hope behind the flaws, but I think we are all better off in starting to discus that when we have another and better produced demo.

The reason I mentioned "reality" is because certain people posted some comments on that we didn't know how real strings sounded etc


----------



## stevenson-again (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

LASS is no panacea. i use it and love it and i agree with those who say it DOES have a bit of a learning curve - simply to make sound right. i certainly don't think it sounds good 'out of the box'. but it IS incredibly expressive. and there certainly isn't anything like it around. it is extremely practical. i am using in a big production right now and would be happy to show off bits if anyone was interested.

the only library i have heard or used that sounds good 'straight out of the box' is symphobia. but it is not nearly as malleable and is not without its problems.

it does seem to be a bit of a shame that there is so much misunderstanding and defensiveness, and defensiveness of offensiveness, and offensive defensiveness - and any other permutation i can't be bothered to write on this forum.

1. if you view a library like KH dismissively, you could be missing a big trick.

2. *most* posters here *didn't* view the library dismissively, but registered surprise at the demo, which they did not think sounded great. although there are some interesting things in it if you can hear past the 'sound'.

3. demos and first impressions are vital.
- think about the reaction to morphestra when it was first demoed. yech. not so yech now though eh? it is at least worth consideration.
- think about colin o'malleys demo of LASS. boy that turned some heads, mine included.

at the this stage i am relatively happy, but i may want a supplement later to use in combination with LASS and symphobia, and KH would be at the top of my list of potentials. it's cheap enough just to get and muck around with even if you don't use it all the time.


----------



## Hannes_F (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Jaap @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> The reason I mentioned to avoid musicality is because of the lack of insight on how to produce a good demo. For me the demo has too many flaws now to focus on musicality. A good demo has a balance between showing the sonic quality of the samples and present them in a "healthy" and musical environment. The fact that this did not happen takes for me away the discussion about musicality.



OK, that is reasonable.



> The reason I mentioned "reality" is because certain people posted some comments on that we didn't know how real strings sounded etc



Well, numerous members here really know how real strings sound, so I decided to ignore that (original) comment o-[][]-o


----------



## Niah (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Niah @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> ...



but jay im still a punk kid, not a jedi veteran composer like you :mrgreen: 

I just think that you are missing out if you are judging peple's opinions based on the music that they do, which is all very subjective if I may add, rather than what they are saying.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

It bewilders me frankly because I think overall the demo sounds really good. Yes the verb could be less metallic and it was an ambitious undertaking but I would rather hear a over-reaching attempt than a safe one.

Would some of you do me a favor to satisfy my curiosity? I do not know if Europeans get the TVs how "Medium" but here in the U.S. it airs on Friday nights.

Jeff Beal's main title uses Kirk's Emerald strings, very marcato. Listen to the main title and had it been posted here as a demo, what would your comments have been? My guess is similar to much of what is written here in this thread. And yet, Jeff is widely respected here in LA, is an Emmy winner, and frequently uses some of the best string players in LA. And the show with its theme has been running for years, so obviously the producers liked its sound and felt that it worked.

It just seems to me that sometimes there is a disconnect between evaluations here and the real world.


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## Hannes_F (Sep 30, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> It bewilders me frankly because I think overall the demo sounds really good.



Jay,

I am looking you into the eyes (virtually)

please believe me

It does not sound good.

Sorry.

No offense, no emotion, just honesty.

Sorry again.


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## Jaap (Sep 30, 2009)

Yeah I know Jeff Beals his music (have been in touch with him several times for purchasing and performing some of his orchestral works) and he did a great job, but Kirk Hunter should have used THAT demo then instead of THIS.

Its nice that it can produce such sound, but I wasn't aware that Jeff used KH stuff and this demo just purely doesn't serve the job well then.

You can't expect new customers to google first users of KH and check their stuff. A demo has to serve the public straight away.

I got a wrong impression and he needs to work hard to remove that, no matter how much Jeff Beal used KH stuff.


----------



## Niah (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



lux @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Niah @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > lux @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> ...



that's hard for me to answer since all patches have different sizes. you have alot of legato patches, patches with just legato, others with legato portamento and glissando, others for fast playing others for slow playing, and others that are a combo of it all. Bottomline you have alot of patches suited for your computer requirements.

I think you could load what you mentioned, but I don't know it also depends what other libs you have loaded and if they are intensive.


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## Frederick Russ (Sep 30, 2009)

Trying to mock up Vivaldi is not for the faint of heart - in fact, you get to pretty much hear the pluses and minuses of the string library itself. Reverb aside, the string timbre is actually not that bad from what I could tell. There are nice parts that were surprising. I liked the expressive use of vibrato in the playing - very musical - and the string timbre in the sample especially within the low to mid registers. 

The problem (for me at least) is particularly at 1:39 when the second set of high register ff violins runs start. This really spoiled the illusion for me. The strings seem very exposed there, sound synthy and the reverb appears to be some sort of chamber emulation with a ramped up EQ in the mid-high to high frequencies - it should not have been used. A better choice may have been to use a Bricasti Designs M7 where some of the higher frequencies of the room are gently rolled off. Even a true stereo IR of one would have been a better choice imo.

Based on the demo, I liked the long note expressiveness and the some of the nice attacks on the short notes particularly in the first sections where instruments of low to mid registers were playing with guests from the higher registers. I did not like the washy sound of the violins during the fast phrases however especially after 1:39 but this may have been somewhat attributable to the 5khz Q fake reverb used in the demo.

Every library will have its strengths and weaknesses. A lot of composers - for a more custom sound - will no doubt want to layer different libraries, focusing on the strengths of each. They will probably want to use this library as well for that reason. This particular KH demo needs work for various reasons but from a string timbre and expressiveness factoring in, its not bad. Its not Lass but it has some nice things to add to the table imo.


----------



## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Niah @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Niah @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> ...



Everyone has opinions. You know the saying, and I will clean it up: Opinions are like anuses; everyone has one and no one needs a second.

So one has to sort the wheat from the chaff. Therefore, I value the opinions of people of demonstrated ability more than those who have not. It is easy to talk the talk, much harder to walk the walk.

When Craig was beta testing LASS and told me he believed it was a game changer, that is a comment I took VERY seriously, because I have heard what Craig writes and produces. Should I really take another's opinion and give it equal weight to Craig's if that person cannot or at least has not shown similar ability? I just don't think that would be very smart. 

If for instance, I were to discuss a film's score with a guy like Bruce Broughton and I did not like it but he said he thought it worked well, my first thought would be,"Bruce has done so many great scores. What is he seeing/hearing that I am missing?"

That in my opinion is the proper approach to this craft.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > It bewilders me frankly because I think overall the demo sounds really good.
> ...



No offense taken, no apology required.. That is your honest opinion, fairly stated, not harsh.

I disagree.


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## Ashermusic (Sep 30, 2009)

Jaap @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Yeah I know Jeff Beals his music (have been in touch with him several times for purchasing and performing some of his orchestral works) and he did a great job, but Kirk Hunter should have used THAT demo then instead of THIS.



See, my guess is, and I could be wrong, is that if before people knew what it was it was posted here as a demo, it would have been torn a new one. That is why I would like people's honest reactions to it.


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## Niah (Sep 30, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > It bewilders me frankly because I think overall the demo sounds really good.
> ...



don't listen to this man he is crazy, what does he know? he plays the accordion :lol:  

jk Hannes 8)


----------



## lux (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*



Niah @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> that's hard for me to answer since all patches have different sizes. you have alot of legato patches, patches with just legato, others with legato portamento and glissando, others for fast playing others for slow playing, and others that are a combo of it all. Bottomline you have alot of patches suited for your computer requirements.
> 
> I think you could load what you mentioned, but I don't know it also depends what other libs you have loaded and if they are intensive.



Thanks, i see what you mean.


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## Jaap (Sep 30, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Jaap @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I know Jeff Beals his music (have been in touch with him several times for purchasing and performing some of his orchestral works) and he did a great job, but Kirk Hunter should have used THAT demo then instead of THIS.
> ...



It is good to collect honest and not biased reactions. In the end it will only benefit Kirk. Whether it is on improving his library or when creating a new demo.
As a developper you need inputs from both sides and we listen all with different ears and backgrounds and therefore give different feedback whether we agree or not with eachother (but that keeps VI alive o-[][]-o )


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## _taylor (Sep 30, 2009)

Here's the medium theme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhbNmsAR1js


Sound good to me. A lot better than the new demo, which to me, sounds like is suffering from a really bad mixdown.


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## rJames (Sep 30, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Would some of you do me a favor to satisfy my curiosity? I do not know if Europeans get the TVs how "Medium" but here in the U.S. it airs on Friday nights.
> 
> Jeff Beal's main title uses Kirk's Emerald strings, very marcato. .



Really? Love that theme!

Every time I hear it I remember that I was going to record it and listen carefully to the writing.

What's worse is that it is always on DVR...but we erase it after viewing.

Love that theme!


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## tmhuud (Sep 30, 2009)

Demo was replaced with the Todd-AO IR from Altiverb. 

http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/audiodemos.html


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## ozmorphasis (Sep 30, 2009)

Not sure if anyone else has already commented on this or noticed it, but the Winter Demo of Vivaldi simply has tons of wrong notes in it. The chord progressions are wrong.

That is actually the most offensive part of the demo...much more so than anything to do with reverb, etc.

Dig up your versions of it or youtube it and compare if you want to hear the difference.

I don't have issues with people mocking up the standard rep, although I know that some people in these parts definitely don't like it, and consider it sacrilege.

I do consider it sacrilege to claim that this is Vivaldi's work, and then have many wrong notes/chords, especially for music that, for all of its greatness, is in fact not that complex and certainly not that hard to enter into a sequencer from a score.

The wrong notes begin about 2/3rds way through after the buildup. I counted at least 3 wrong harmonies!

O


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## bmiller360 (Sep 30, 2009)

just my 2 cents..........I would like to hear what others are hearing in this demo regarding the metallic reverb, etc, etc. I've spent many years in front of the greatest orchestra musicians in the world (here in the studios of Los Angeles) and IMHO, consider this demo to be terrific. If you want to hear artificial, I can show you demos i've heard that are truly fake sounding and unmusical. This one, however, ain't that. Can I find any flaws at all in this demo........I'm sure I could look hard enough and come up with something, but it would take a pretty intense scrutiny, and I wouldn't mention it anyway if I did find something, because that is not the purpose that Jay had when he posted it. This whole thread is, to me, pretty silly. Some of the posters are downright vengeful and bitter sounding. I'd say that you might want to chill out........take a pill to help your mood, or if you are taking a pill, you may consider stopping it! Also, it really helps to at least spend a little time with some CDs of real orchestras and listen to how they sound. A picture is worth a thousand words.
with respect,
bruce miller


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## Niah (Sep 30, 2009)

bmiller360 @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> just my 2 cents..........I would like to hear what others are hearing in this demo regarding the metallic reverb, etc, etc. I've spent many years in front of the greatest orchestra musicians in the world (here in the studios of Los Angeles) and IMHO, consider this demo to be terrific. If you want to hear artificial, I can show you demos i've heard that are truly fake sounding and unmusical. This one, however, ain't that. Can I find any flaws at all in this demo........I'm sure I could look hard enough and come up with something, but it would take a pretty intense scrutiny, and I wouldn't mention it anyway if I did find something, because that is not the purpose that Jay had when he posted it. This whole thread is, to me, pretty silly. Some of the posters are downright vengeful and bitter sounding. I'd say that you might want to chill out........take a pill to help your mood, or if you are taking a pill, you may consider stopping it! Also, it really helps to at least spend a little time with some CDs of real orchestras and listen to how they sound. A picture is worth a thousand words.
> with respect,
> bruce miller



Just when I thought I was done with this thread. :mrgreen: 

You may have spent many years in front of real orchestras, but like dave said and I totally agree, the live sound of an orchestra is not the same as the sound of a recorded orchestra. So why even mention that?
Aside from it there are people with many years of working with live orchestras that didn't find this demo to be good at all. So what does that tell us?

I particulary think that this has very little to do with the opinions that people have over what sample libraries they like the most.
It has much more to do with individual sound perception, sound aesthetics, quality standards and personal musical goals.

I don't see how advising people to go listen to CD's of real orchestras is going the change their opinions as well. I mean I wonder what people who found this demo artificial will have to say once they listen to it up against a real recording of the same piece or another for that matter.

Essentially I believe that people just have to accept each other opinions even if they don't understand them.


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## bmiller360 (Sep 30, 2009)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I made it a point to say IMHO. We all hear the way we hear. In my humble opinion this thread has gotten a bit emotional.....IMHO.
W/respec,
Bruce


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## lux (Sep 30, 2009)

tmhuud @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> Demo was replaced with the Todd-AO IR from Altiverb.
> 
> http://www.kirkhunterstudios.com/audiodemos.html



while you kids are disputing about who spent more time with the ass on the chair in front of a real orchestra....

...Terry advised us of a very important change able to reveal a bit more the inner nature of the upcoming product.

In general once the reverb goes away i can hear a good number of artifacts that i'm not able to explain easily. The first part has some artificial sound to me, like the sound was shaped entirely using envelopes and not natural notes. Also i'm afraid the noise reduction has been taken to levels where you can really hear it.

This could be a problem with the final recording as well as an issue of the samples themselves. I would hope about the first option but i'm more taken to consider the second one.


*Now. are we grown enough? Can we discuss the following thing without gettin heated? technically? that would be a good demonstration of our mature (almost) state*

Ok, i'll put simply. I have the impression, as other members had in the past, that the final result is not directly recorded in this shape but comes from overlapping of smaller sections. This impression is mostly related to the fact that the sounds seem "summed" more than the result of a natural interaction of live players in a hall. 

Personally i have nothing against that, if the result was good enough. Sometimes tricky approaches lead to great results.

If i'm right that would explain also the noise reduction artifact, because summing multiple audio sources would raise up the noise to unacceptable levels.

That said, this kind of sound has usages, expecially in pop related productions where smaller ensembles like SISS are sometimes considered thin and others are considered too detailed and not fitting mixes. I've seen that myself.

But, really, thats just my impression. Nothing more nothing less. 

Luca


----------



## Lex (Sep 30, 2009)

...after avoiding it for some days, curiosity won and I clicked to hear it..

Dont know why, to me it sounds as if my Virus synth got Reeealy high and started trippin that he is a string section..

I sorta like the first part, soft dynamics are ok..
Second part is where it starts to get funny...to be constructive, sounds like violines r playing some stac/marc layered patch, sharp attacks on each note which is what makes it super synth like...

Also, sounds like there is a serious deficit of repetition/round robin patches, cause the "loopiness" of those bass/cello stacs is just painfull..

And to all the "fighting"...dont see whats the big deal, if you like how this sounds, pay the man, get the lib, and you'll have a pretty sound just like it. 

aLex


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## lux (Oct 1, 2009)

germancomponist @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> lux @ Thu Oct 01 said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



well i'm no noise expert, so i cant help. Perhaps someone could enlight us about that.


----------



## stevenson-again (Oct 1, 2009)

> The overall is too synthetic and the demo shows for me that it is lacking depth to handle soft strings and also lacking good features to handle complex quick runs. Too machine like and missing depth that gives a more natural feeling to the quick runs.



don't you think that may be an issue of programming? i know what you mean, but i am wondering if maybe that impression is left by a combination of mocking up a piece that is not ideally suited to the library, plus the way it is handled.

there is also a somewhat fuzziness - a lack of clarity - which is accentuated by the material, but i think that could be sorted out with some good programming as you work with it. what i like is that there is a certain richness to the timbre i enjoyed. it felt smooth, warm and lush. i wonder what it would sound like with LASS desk A behind it, doing some mahler type arrangements. i find it difficult to get LASS to sound lush, but i never have a problem getting it to sound clear.


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## Jaap (Oct 1, 2009)

stevenson-again @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> > The overall is too synthetic and the demo shows for me that it is lacking depth to handle soft strings and also lacking good features to handle complex quick runs. Too machine like and missing depth that gives a more natural feeling to the quick runs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah it could be very likely an issue of programming and I agree that it this piece is not suited for a mockup. I think hardly any library will look good when using this piece to be honest


----------



## TheoKrueger (Oct 1, 2009)

I'd like to hear something like the forest gump theme with this library. The new demo is better i think, and that reverb in the first one was what was making all that high frequency noise.... i tried addding some extra reverb on top and nothing funny happened.

More demos please!


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## stevenson-again (Oct 1, 2009)

> and I agree that it this piece is not suited for a mockup



actually - just to be clear, i think this is an interesting piece to mock-up, but not suited to this library which sounds quite romantic and lush to me. i think LASS would be better suited to vivaldi.

the choice of vivaldi is that it represents a real work out for the capabilities of the library, which i think you get, if you can hear past the stylistic incongruity. in particular i am betting the aim was primarily to show off the fast legatos which are pretty damn good. in the right context they could be absolutely scintillating.


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## david robinson (Oct 1, 2009)

hi rr,
also liked the fast legato.
the version i heard did sound a little "big" for that type of music.
the inner detail turns to mud very quickly.
DR9.


----------



## hbuus (Oct 1, 2009)

A little OT, but still:

I just looked at the testimonials at your website, Kirk.
Testimonial 2 (Jeff Beal) cannot be accessed because of an error in the link.
You can, however, easily guess what you have to manually type in order to get to the page.
What's more, the text for testimonials 5 and 6 (Shawn Patterson and David Newman) is exactly the same.
Perhaps there are more bugs, I don't know. But these are the two I found in the five minutes I was looking at your site.

I don't know if you have considered this or not, but when you present yourself with a homepage like this with errors that indicate the homepage was finished in a rush, at least to me this gives away an impression of sloppyness which carries through to my perception and expectation of your sample libraries. I can't help but wonder if your sample libraries were also finished in a rush, and I think about what kind of errors one might find in those sample libraries because of sloppyness and things being done just a little too fast when recording and editing.


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## bryla (Oct 1, 2009)

hbuus @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Testimonial 2 (Jeff Beal) cannot be accessed because of an error in the link.


works for me


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 1, 2009)

Sounds pretty damn impressive to me now. I'd like to hear other demos in different styles - this wouldn't be the kind of sound I'd use, but I'm sure plenty of others would. There's a lovely subtle touch at 32s. The first part of the fast section sounds stunning, the higher registers a little less so with those very fast runs, but I've yet to hear any demo pull that off, really.

Honestly can't hear this noise reduction effect - do you mean the overall "shape" of the articulation used mostly at the start?

I think "tough crowd" somes it up quite well!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2009)

lux @ Wed Sep 30 said:


> tmhuud @ Wed Sep 30 said:
> 
> 
> > Demo was replaced with the Todd-AO IR from Altiverb.
> ...



In point of fact, guys like myself and Bruce conduct standing up with a baton, not seated on a chair. In fact, with the exception of Itzhack Perlman, I have never seen anyone in front of an orchestra seated. The guys with their "ass on the chair" are the players.

Maybe we need a virtual conductor for you for your sample libraries :lol:


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## lux (Oct 1, 2009)

Thanks Frederick 

in general i was referring to hear a real orchestra, not necessarely conducting it.

So a chair is more than appropriate. Unless Asher listens to orchestas always with a baton in hand.


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## lux (Oct 1, 2009)

battitoli? hehe

Bacchetta. Thats the word.


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## Niah (Oct 1, 2009)

a battoni?? I thought that Jay conducted with his hat !

okey now I'm dissapointed :| 

jk Jay 8)


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## Jaap (Oct 1, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> hbuus @ Thu Oct 01 said:
> 
> 
> > A little OT, but still:
> ...



Well apperantly they don't mind that they are quoted wrong, incorrect or not at all (last 2 testimonials are empty) and if you clicked anything above testimonial 5, the one from Jeff Beal is not working anymore.
I can only agree that it looks very unprofessional. I also took a listen to the other demo Winter and oh boy oh boy ... it is full of harmonic and melodic mistakes...
This simply just doesn't give a good impression if you also count the fact that the summer demo was first released with a horrible reverb and in a very unprofessional mix.
I don't care if all the Jeff Beals, Alan Silvestri's give good testimonials. These sort of mistakes still can scare away customers, no matter how good a library actually can be.


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## Niah (Oct 1, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Niah @ Thu Oct 01 said:
> 
> 
> > a battoni?? I thought that Jay conducted with his hat !
> ...



80.000??? wHere do you get these numbers? michael moore ? 

ok i'll stop now :D


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## sirbellog (Oct 1, 2009)

Jaap @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> I can only agree that it looks very unprofessional. I also took a listen to the other demo Winter and oh boy oh boy ... it is full of harmonic and melodic mistakes...
> This simply just doesn't give a good impression if you also count the fact that the summer demo was first released with a horrible reverb and in a very unprofessional mix.
> I don't care if all the Jeff Beals, Alan Silvestri's give good testimonials. These sort of mistakes still can scare away customers, no matter how good a library actually can be.



Once in a while, I also visit a company's site I don't like, be it for the demos, the look, mistakes, whatever.
I guess this has to happen to anyone looking on the Internet for new libraries.

When this hapens to me, I click to another page, end of story, I won't come back, and no need for me to come on a forum just to claim this or that about this site.

In fact it's not so common IMO and IME(xperience) to see people on a forum having to post only to "share" about the awfull impression they got here or there.... and loudly advertize all the flaws they have found (that other people might have skipped otherwise)

IMO, it's much energy and time not really spent in "constructive" and "civil" criticism....

Let's be clear : my sleep will in no way be worse tonight for having read once again what "sounds" to me like "free bashing" of Mr Hunter's work.
I just like his libs which are IMO balanced quality-pricewise, and each time I had to contact him by mail, he has been reactive, supportive and polite, even "friendly". That's it.

So it's not like we are brothers, and I have now to run and protect him from the attack of the Dark Forces....
(just to say that I'm not personnally offended, or even hurt in a "fanboy" manner....)

Yet I'm still puzzled by what seems (to me again), more like a wish to be mean, than a desire to help other people reach an educated opinion/decision.

Another poster has invited everybody to present just technical comments about the demo, and I for one thought it was a good idea.

Some seem to have thought the same way as well.
But not everybody apparently : this kind of malicious saying seems to me like "backward pedalling".

May be just me though, and my naive way to be concerned when I witness a seemingly unfair situation.


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## hbuus (Oct 1, 2009)

Niah @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> 80.000??? were do you get these numbers? michael moore ?



Niah, it's "where", not "were".

Could you use a spell checker, please? 0oD


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## Niah (Oct 1, 2009)

hbuus @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Niah @ Thu Oct 01 said:
> 
> 
> > 80.000??? were do you get these numbers? michael moore ?
> ...



now that I have you has my spellchecker....no :lol:


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## Jaap (Oct 1, 2009)

Sirbellog,

I think it is very important that we state all kinds of opinions and things we notice on a website. We are having a healthy discussion here about the pro's and con's of a library and hbuus really nicely mentions OT when he puts notice to this. 
I continued with this in the line of discussion with Asher as he points out some counterarguments as well and in the same way I continue. Simply as that.

It's not bashing Kirk Hunter and as said before. Stop saying that. We are saying things that are good to mention and will only benefit mr Hunter.

By saying this he can or change things on the website he wasn't aware off and also hear what potential customers will think of his website and how it is advertised. If he changes things it can only work out good since for example I would like that and be pleased to see if people make changes and admit some things were not as good as they should be.
Wouldn't it benefit us all and mr Hunter if things are changed and lets say you visit the website for the first time and it's now changed and you are happy with it and are convinced to buy the library? That wouldn't happen if nobody points out a critique note and just say the positive.

So before you start calling out things like bashing etc, maybe look a little further and read between the lines and also the replies in general.

Thanks.


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## sirbellog (Oct 1, 2009)

Jaap, you seem to be so willing to help Mr Hunter improve his buisness with so many wise tips....
It's really moving.

In french, we have a saying, which states (please excuse my clumsy translation) :
"with friends like you, I no longer need ennemies".

The way you "state opinions" just recalled it to me.
Once again, it may be just me getting too old, and seeing hostile attitudes where there is only positive, open-minded, and friendly desire to communicate.

Sorry for that, but you'll get old someday too.

Now I will go and play with my newly installed Komplete 6 upgrade !


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## hbuus (Oct 1, 2009)

sirbellog @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Once in a while, I also visit a company's site I don't like, be it for the demos, the look, mistakes, whatever.
> I guess this has to happen to anyone looking on the Internet for new libraries.
> 
> When this hapens to me, I click to another page, end of story, I won't come back, and no need for me to come on a forum just to claim this or that about this site.



You just gave the best possible reason why Jaap is right in what he says above: Sample developers should care deeply about how their (potential) customers perceive their web site, because otherwise they can easily lose sales.


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## Niah (Oct 1, 2009)

Sirbellog,

don't have like a 10 dollar sample pukelele to buy? isn't this like thursday extragavanza or something? :lol: 

and btw don't blame this on your age :wink: 

I hope you think about this 8)


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## Jaap (Oct 1, 2009)

sirbellog @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Jaap, you seem to be so willing to help Mr Hunter improve his buisness with so many wise tips....
> It's really moving.
> 
> In french, we have a saying, which states (please excuse my clumsy translation) :
> ...



Well maybe I don't put things clear, could be. I am open to improve my social skills.
In my opinion a good talk in an open community consists of putting on table the good and the bad of what you notice.
For example a long time ago we had a talk here about the Hadopi law in France and I was quite in favor of it. Markus S (a french guy) and Polarbear were quite against (as others as well btw). It was a discussion with a lot of heath, but in the end I was convinsed I might have been wrong with my arguments and I started to think about things and after a week or 2 with also reading up I changed my opinion.
Moral of the story. I would have been stubborn been in favor of the law if we didn't had the discussion.

Same goes here. THere are people who really like the library and some who don't like what they have heard and have seen here. I am merely expressing my opinion in a very civil matter without namecalling. 
It's very honestly not intended to push mr Hunter and his hard work under the shovel. Not at all. 
I have put compositions on this forum which received very hard critics. It learned me to improve. Some people liked it though and I could have focussed on them, but I focussed on both and I think that is what is going on here. A discussion where people state the pro's and con's on what they see. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please address me a part where I delibaretly bashing mr Hunter and I will of course apologise for any inconvenience done.

Edit: enjoy your Komplete 6 upgrade :mrgreen:


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## sirbellog (Oct 1, 2009)

Niah @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Sirbellog,
> 
> don't have like a 10 dollar sample pukelele to buy? isn't this like thursday extragavanza or something? :lol:
> 
> ...



Niah, 
not much time for that, I'm really enjoying Absynth right now so i'll go back to discovering it 
(and believe or not, I upgraded my K3 to Komplete6 without even listening to a single Absynth demo.... the math was simple for a simple guy like me : I wanted to upgrade K3 to K4, and GR3 to GR4... the little extra money was worth Massive and Absynth even with no check, just because I know and trust NI for all the products I already own and enjoy... Well, you'll never change an old monkey ! )
This being said, I think it's a bit "low" (under-the-belt, does it make sense in english ?) to ironically revive an old thread where we just happened to disagree... for in fact so little.
While you're at it, why don't you search for all my posts, on all existing forums ? Me being just a human, with all my flaws, no doubt, you'll get enough matter to make more fun on me....

*******

hbuus : 
you should really IMO think twice before saying things like that : maybe Mr Hunter is clumsy in his way to attract new customers, and so he may lose some....
I don't know really about that (as for myself, I confess I was often irritated or frustrated with all his sites, and told him, even publicly... with no real result as you can see today, so he'll probably never get better at that, even with a gun on the head !) but I never got stopped on that only, because what I heard on his confusing sites seemed interesting.

What I know better, it is about the ones he is probably currently losing right now, just because of people like Jaap, who loudly claim how his site is bad, his demos awfull, his sound so tasteless... 
Should I pursue... ?

As I said, and it will be my last word on that (sorry Niah, you'll see, like me, when you reach my age (over 50, cry) , you'll have to spare your old fingers for their use on another kind of keyboard) as i said then, I don't care really about Mr Hunter, personnally. 
But evaluating the hard, long, time consuming, tedious job which is implied in releasing gigantic libraries like those we all demand in those days, I think we should be more subtle, respectful, and diplomatic in the way we express our reactions to a new product, and to a small company which can't allow glassy, shiny sites, made with muchos $$ by professionals...

Once again, I admit it's very old fashioned to think this way, and that the competition for life makes this kind of consideration a luxury !


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## Jaap (Oct 1, 2009)

I think for a developper the kind of reaction you gave Sirbellog is the most devastating. You don't seem to care. Nothing in the world is perfect by existence. How can a developper grow and improve if nothing is said to him concerning any (possible) mistakes? If people just kept their mouth and just shouted positive things, the world wouldn't improve I am afraid.
At least I have a sort of emotion coming up, expressing myself in what I see what is wrong (in again a civil matter, you talk about me if I am a devil worshipper shouting from all roofs.. DON"T BUY!!)

If you would have taken the time to read back you can also see that I pointed out positive sides (as well as many many others did who gave critic on this).

Anyway you are out, which is a shame to leave a discussion in the middle, but ok  enjoy once again your Komplete 6 upgrade


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2009)

sirbellog @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> > But evaluating the hard, long, time consuming, tedious job which is implied in releasing gigantic libraries like those we all demand in those days, I think we should be more subtle, respectful, and diplomatic in the way we express our reactions to a new product, and to a small company which can't allow glassy, shiny sites, made with muchos $$ by professionals...
> >
> > Once again, I admit it's very old fashioned to think this way, and that the competition for life makes this kind of consideration a luxury !



Amen, brother.


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## sirbellog (Oct 1, 2009)

Mr jaap, I'm just taking the time to show you that I did not leave the ship :

You are talking about things you don't know : I DID happen to spend time writing PRIVATELY to a few developers who had IMO some potential, despite things I did NOT like, to point out a few things they should improve to attract more people (including me)

Believe or not, 1 or 2 of them appreciated my feedback, liked the privacy of our exchanges, and took some of mty remarks into account, and we still have a warm, friendly relationship, even if I'm not a "pro" whose credentials matter on a site.

One is even now in what I'd call the "big league", even if I do NOT think I'm the cause....

What I meant, and am still meaning, is only that I do NOT find it useful in any way for the developer to have his work publicly and loudly depreciated like what I saw those 2 last days.

You talk about me reading better, so you shoud have spotted words like "respectful".


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## Jaap (Oct 1, 2009)

Sirbellog,

That is good to hear and I withdraw my comments about you don't care.

I think however that we differ in opinion on what should be said on a forum or not. In my believe a public forum is to discuss the good and the bad of a product since this will give (potential) customers an insight in what they can expect and not completely relying on advertisements from the developper themselves.

This board is ment to be a place of public and indeed respectfull discussions and so I am doing in my opinion.
If the moderators of course think otherwise about my saying, I am glad to hear that and reconsider some things I have said and if they decide that any negative feedback on a product is not wanted, then I will of course happily leave this place.


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## Niah (Oct 1, 2009)

sirbellog, 

it was meant as a joke, no harm intented, sorry about that

my apologies


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## Hans Adamson (Oct 1, 2009)

I discovered this thread this morning, and listened to Vivaldi's "Summer", and I liked it. I liked the romantic emotional quality of the strings even though in a baroque piece. It is true you can hear artificial dynamic envelope shaping etc, but I think a soundware instrument that embodies the essence of emotional romantic strings is just as useful an inspiring tool even if it lacks the perfect realism. It all depends on how you are going to use it - creatively, or mockup-realistically. I also listened to "Winter", but it has a more harsh edge to it that I didn't like as much.


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## lux (Oct 1, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> lux @ Thu Oct 01 said:
> 
> 
> > battitoli? hehe
> ...



Yup, i usually am


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## NYC Composer (Oct 1, 2009)

re-peat @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Why is it, I wonder, that there’s so little good-sounding KH music available? I ask because whenever the Kirk Hunter Appraisal Society wants to make its point, all they can come up with — so it seems anyway — is that one minuscule (and pretty old) ‘Medium’ track by Mr. Beal, which keeps being thrown at us ad nauseam in every KH-related discussion. And that’s a track where the KH content is not even the prime element, and quite heavily processed as well. Is there really nothing else out there?
> With nearly every other library, there’s a wide assortment of examples, pieces and demos available, to help us form an opinion about it, or build a case for (or against) it, but when it comes to KH, all we have is the embarrassing muck on his website — which even the most committed KH-user is wise enough not to refer to — and ... that one tiny fragment, the ‘Medium’ tune, that made it onto TV which, to some, is apparently a quality label.
> 
> I mean, if the KH stuff is so great and useful, as some of you insist it is, then where is all that good sounding music that you no doubt made with it? You see, I never heard any. Why, for instance, is there not a single piece on the KH website, or anywhere else, rendered exclusively with KH libraries, that can be referred to as a really fine sounding piece of music, made with these supposedly great sounding libraries? Just one piece that makes our ears stand up and say: “Ah, finally, some good sounds from a KH library!”. Every other sample library developer makes sure to host a number such pieces, but not so KH (unless Mr. Hunter really believes that his demos sound good, but I find that rather difficult to accept from someone who's said to be a fine musician).
> ...



You spent money and bought one of his libraries, right? You are speaking as a dissatisfied customer, with actual experience using one of his collections?


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## lux (Oct 1, 2009)

I think the question, "per se" makes sense.

Are those inconsistences found in the recent libraries (emerald and its brothers)? What did u find specifically into those?


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## Hannes_F (Oct 1, 2009)

re-piet,

FWIW I wrote these two pieces with KH libraries:

http://www.frischat.com/compose/HFrischat_KH_StringQuintet.mp3 (http://www.frischat.com/compose/HFrisch ... uintet.mp3)
http://www.frischat.com/compose/HFrischat_012855_01.mp3

They are two years old and reflect my knowledge of mixing then which was not very much. And the second violins sit on the right side which is a little irritating. Still I think they have their moments, more the high strings than the low ones.

However to get this I reprogrammed the original strings using more like a single sample at at time than a big pile of it.


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## LFO (Oct 1, 2009)

*Re: Dmeo of Kirk Hunter's new strings*

[EDIT] Awww..nevermind..not worth it....

-Kevin


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## Hannes_F (Oct 1, 2009)

re-peat @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Buy any library from KH and you end up with an avalanche of patches on your harddrive, many of them virtually identical, many unfinished, many incomplete, an astounding number of them including crackles and ticks, infested with weak samples and sonical incompatibilities, and plenty of phasing noises and other recording debris. And the experience is made even worse by superfluous complexities and annoying inconsistencies in the program-groups and -names.



Well, that is true, many of the samples are derived from each other ... and some of them seem to be more original recording than others. This is knowledge of somebody that has had a good look under the hood  so I am sure re-peat has used the samples.


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## re-peat (Oct 1, 2009)

*Larry,*

Yes, I own quite a bit of KH's stuff as it happens: I started with the 'Virtuoso Strings', back in the days when I was still using an EMU E-6400 sampler and there was little else affordable. Then I followed that up with the KH Solo Strings — purchased at a time when buying that collection still made sense —, after which I got 'Emerald' (partly out of curiosity, call it 'research' if you like) and the 'Studio Strings' which, I have to say, do contain a few nice textures in the upper violins (it's got really horrible cellos and basses though). 
Of all those libraries, I think the 'Chamber Strings' (a section of Emerald) have the most merit, sonicaly speaking. At least, those are the ones for which I actually find some use now and again. All the other stuff got wiped from my harddrive within a few weeks after installation.

Except for those early 'Virtuoso Strings' (which I remember very little of, other than that they had some really metallic, shrieking cellos and violas), all those libraries are a bewildering mess. And programmed for the EXS by someone who obviously doesn't know the first thing about that particular sampler. Painfully inefficient programming, that's what it is. (I don't know how well the Kontakt versions fare though. I hope they are are programmed with a bit more insight.)

_


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## re-peat (Oct 1, 2009)

*Hannes,*

I can't deny that you've created some powerful moments in both those pieces and the sound is at times remarkably expressive as well. And not as synthetic or sticky as in most any other KH-examples I've heard.
Still, I have to say that there's always something in the KH sound that just doesn't agree with me. I don't quite know how to describe it, but it sounds like "harsh and muffled at the same" time, you know? Piercing, and yet without 'air' or detail.

Anyway, a most illuminating contribution — as is invariably the case with you — for which I'm sincerely grateful.

_


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## Hannes_F (Oct 1, 2009)

BTW here is another thought. How comes the first demo (that is not up there any more) was regarded as fine sounding by some seasoned composers and some newbies thought it sounded harsh? Over at NS somebody even said it sounded dark and Mr. Hunter agreed. How can that be?

Looking at the spectrum of the first variation I think this phenomenon could be related to physical hearing range which is loosely related to age. Imagine somebody that hears well up to 10 kHz (like myself) decides a mix is too dark and gives it a boost between 8 and 16 kHz. For him it is fine now while it makes other cringe. 

This big 'air boost' seems to be popular but it is dangerous. For my own recordings I try to stay away from the equalizer as much as I can. If I need an EQ for more than nuances almost inevitable something went wrong before.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 1, 2009)

re-peat @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> *Hannes,*
> 
> I can't deny that you've created some powerful moments in both those pieces and the sound is at times remarkably expressive as well. And not as synthetic or sticky as in most any other KH-examples I've heard.
> Still, I have to say that there's always something in the KH sound that just doesn't agree with me. I don't quite know how to describe it, but it sounds like "harsh and muffled at the same" time, you know? Piercing, and yet without 'air' or detail.
> ...



re-piet, thank you for commenting, and I know exactly what you mean. I remember I tried to get this away but what I learned then was if there is some issue in a recording there is not much you can do about it. You can eventually try to hide it by layering or reverbing but there is no means to really filter it out. After going in circles you go back to start and that is the sample itself. This was actually the point where I decided to record my own strings but that is a different story.

Regarding the KH strings I have always felt that their potential is the expressive vibrato that is captured and can even be mixed in and out which is a big plus. There is some heat going on and I like that, despite the programming and recording has not been exactly on par. Maybe the programming has improved now, I found the legatos of the new demo to be promising.


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## muziksculp (Oct 1, 2009)

re-peat @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> *Hannes,*
> 
> 
> Still, I have to say that there's always something in the KH sound that just doesn't agree with me. I don't quite know how to describe it, but it sounds like "harsh and muffled at the same" time, you know? Piercing, and yet without 'air' or detail.
> ...




I agree, this is a good description of what bothers me a lot about the KH strings, since his early stings libraries, and now this one, I never understood how he finds this to be acceptable, especially given the advances in technology, as far as recording/sampling, editing, and the sophisticated sample streaming engine, and advanced scripts that are possible in Kontakt 3.5 

The whole experience of developing new strings is very time consuming, expensive, requires lots of patience, and dedication to produce a better product, but it seems like this is not really happening with the KH new strings, which I find rather strange ! 

How could this be possible ? does a sample library developer not consult with some of his fellow composer/musician friends ? maybe they can steer things in the right direction during the development phase, be it recording technique, editing of samples, or hiring the right string players, or changing the hall, or hire an expert/consultant, or .... etc. ? I simply don't get it. :roll: 

Well, 2009 has been a good, and interesting year for new Strings libraries, which are still badly needed, at least we have some new Strings libraries that are actually raising the bar, not lowering it. (i.e. LASS ) but we still need more variety, and better quality of strings libraries to choose from.

For example, I would love to see 'VSL' release a new strings library that is NOT recorded in their dead and clinical sounding 'Silent Stage', but rather recorded in a 'lively stage', with just the right amount of acoustics to lively up the strings, and bring out their real sweet timbre, and warmth. 

'EastWest' are developing their new strings library (Hollywood Strings), so that should be a very exciting library to check out in the future. 'Cinematic Strings' is another one, and my real big wish is to see a comprehensive Strings library released by 'ProjectSam' ! I have requested this from ProjSAM via email, several times in the past two years, and hope they listen to customer requests, and possibly deliver a top-notch Strings library one of these days :mrgreen: I'm pretty sure they can develop a strings library that we can all fall in love with. 

Do you think 'ProjectSam' will surprise us with a new 'Strings' Library during 2009, or early 2010 ?


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 1, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> BTW here is another thought. How comes the first demo (that is not up there any more) was regarded as fine sounding by some seasoned composers and some newbies thought it sounded harsh? Over at NS somebody even said it sounded dark and Mr. Hunter agreed. How can that be?
> 
> Looking at the spectrum of the first variation I think this phenomenon could be related to physical hearing range which is loosely related to age. Imagine somebody that hears well up to 10 kHz (like myself) decides a mix is too dark and gives it a boost between 8 and 16 kHz. For him it is fine now while it makes other cringe.
> 
> This big 'air boost' seems to be popular but it is dangerous. For my own recordings I try to stay away from the equalizer as much as I can. If I need an EQ for more than nuances almost inevitable something went wrong before.



Yes that’s very interesting, and I thought about that myself as well...how on earth anyone would not hear the crazy hi-end in the first demo. Age might be a factor.
And that reverb offcourse, seemed to do it. I don’t care if you can see past a reverb or not, will you be more inclined to buy something if the dmeo sounds bad? 
Offcourse not. 

Just the KH strings in general have too much hi end...I used the 1st Violin Concert strings in my "big" template for a while...but had to drop them...even after seriously removing allot of noise around 7k (which seems to reduce most of the harshness, also found in VSL strings for example) and taking down the extreme high end by allot of db`s, they still stuck out as being too shrill and piercing. Couldn’t get them to mix right with the other libs in there at all.

I agree that adding too much hi end, or even any high end can sound immediately gratifying, but also makes it sound a bit, hm..cheap IMO. 
That’s usually a n00b kinda way to eq...add hi`s and lo`s..screw the mids.

I did listen to the new mix in my studio, and compared it with some of the string libs I have, and I think they sound pretty decent now, a bit "enveloped" or whatever you would say...meaning that the attacks seem to be artificial-ish, but the positive aspect of this will be that they are mouldable and flexible...so can probably be very agile and easy to use. 
The first part of the demo is quite good now, and is obviously very well crafted.
The second half is still a mess to me, but much less so than before.
And quite frankly, what lib would do this well...? Perhaps VSl..i Dunno, like I said ...why expose your strings to something like Vivaldi in the first place?

Anyway, I honestly was set back by the FIRST demo in this post, hence my blunt comment. I like both KH, his strings and whatnot, I agree with Jaap in this post..it`s not a case of "Bashing" anyone, more a simple gesture to point out that the emperor, indeed has no clothes. 

I will not be policed into always saying the political correct thing, because the developer has worked hard and comes here to went his\hers frustration.

I think most people here work hard too, and it is indeed "we" that spend our time and money investing in these libraries and companies...there seems to be some sort of moral perception here and elsewhere that you are not allowed to say what is blatantly obvious for the sake of being "polite" , but id also like to NOT spend 1000 bux on something that turns out to be a waste of money (and my time) ...so id settle for bluntness any day thank you. 

And i dont get much work from being polite either, i assume we should all be gratefull for the time people spend on making new libs, while our own time and money is just there for the taking?

Since when is a "musicians" forum to be run on the premise of the people that want our money???
Again..look at LASS, and the amount of praise it has gotten...and tell me people in here are always negative and out to get the developers??? I think not.

And btw I know my spelling sux, so don’t bother. Find a more valid point to call me a moron for, if you must, and I suspect you must. :D

And rightly so, but i still think expressing a opinion on something posted here is in no way unfair. Why post anything at all, then?
I have nothing but supported KH in the past, and will continue to do so provided he actually sells something i need.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 1, 2009)

re-peat @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Why is it, I wonder, that there’s so little good-sounding KH music available?
> I mean, if the KH stuff is so great and useful, as some of you insist it is, then where is all that good sounding music that you no doubt made with it? You see, I never heard any.



I have created many lovely pieces with KH libraries, usually mixed with others. On the last project, my client said some of the cues made his eyes tear because he found them so touching.

While I will happily link anyone to here they can buy it, I will not be posting it here. Why? Because I have no motivation to do so.

I have been doing this a long time. I have confidence in my ability to decide if something I write sounds good or does not and as long as my client agrees, why would I care about what a bunch of people on a forum, who vary greatly as far as I can tell in their taste, experience, fair mindedness, and talent think about it? I am writing for me, my client, and our eventual public, not a bunch of other composers and wannabee composers.

I simply do not require that validation. And when I really do want an opinion, why wouldn't I just send it to guys like Bruce Miller, Michael Levine, John Frizzell, Craig Sharmat, etc. all of whom have proven to me what they can do and all of whom will give me their honest feedback instead?

Similarly with sample libraries, if I like them, why would I care whether a bunch of people on a forum, who vary greatly as far as I can tell in their taste, experience, fair mindedness, and talent agree with my assessment? 

So, that is why you do not hear my pieces composed with Kirk's libraries here. But you probably would not like them anyway.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 1, 2009)

re-peat @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> *Larry,*
> 
> Yes, I own quite a bit of KH's stuff as it happens: I started with the 'Virtuoso Strings', back in the days when I was still using an EMU E-6400 sampler and there was little else affordable. Then I followed that up with the KH Solo Strings — purchased at a time when buying that collection still made sense —, after which I got 'Emerald' (partly out of curiosity, call it 'research' if you like) and the 'Studio Strings' which, I have to say, do contain a few nice textures in the upper violins (it's got really horrible cellos and basses though).
> Of all those libraries, I think the 'Chamber Strings' (a section of Emerald) have the most merit, sonicaly speaking. At least, those are the ones for which I actually find some use now and again. All the other stuff got wiped from my harddrive within a few weeks after installation.
> ...



Piet-

I doubt I will ever quite get used to the ways you have of expressing yourself, but if you've used his stuff and found it unsuitable, then that's that. Thank you for your reply.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 1, 2009)

Hannes_F @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> BTW here is another thought. How comes the first demo (that is not up there any more) was regarded as fine sounding by some seasoned composers and some newbies thought it sounded harsh? Over at NS somebody even said it sounded dark and Mr. Hunter agreed. How can that be?
> 
> Looking at the spectrum of the first variation I think this phenomenon could be related to physical hearing range which is loosely related to age. Imagine somebody that hears well up to 10 kHz (like myself) decides a mix is too dark and gives it a boost between 8 and 16 kHz. For him it is fine now while it makes other cringe.
> 
> This big 'air boost' seems to be popular but it is dangerous. For my own recordings I try to stay away from the equalizer as much as I can. If I need an EQ for more than nuances almost inevitable something went wrong before.



Very good point re/ age and hearing. Gosh, I wish I hadn't bought that screaming two treble-rotor custom Leslie in '73.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 1, 2009)

Pzy-Clone @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> Hannes_F @ Fri Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW here is another thought. How comes the first demo (that is not up there any more) was regarded as fine sounding by some seasoned composers and some newbies thought it sounded harsh? Over at NS somebody even said it sounded dark and Mr. Hunter agreed. How can that be?
> ...



I would never call you a moron, Pzy. Maybe that's the point here- often it's not the content of what someone says, it's the manner of expression that offends.

I would make the comment that if you 'don't get much work from being polite', try being impolite to directors or other clients and see how you fare.

I don't think civility implies political correctness or incorrectness. It's just a way of communicating. Passion is great. Uncontrolled passion leads to smashmouth bar fights.


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## Pzy-Clone (Oct 1, 2009)

LOl...well, i dont mean to imply im not polite, just being nice without any substance gets you nowhere 

yeah but consider this as well, there are many nationalities in here, sometimes people aply a different set of communicative interpretations and assume its rudness or that someone is being offensive, when they are in fact not at all. 

It goes both ways, what you might percieve as offensive, might just be contained within your own perception and not read as intended.

And in any event, do we really need to be forcefed someone elses standards all the time ..i know i dont respond well to anyone telling me how to express myself, there`s a lot of that in here...respect and civility also means you need to accept the things you dont agree with.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 1, 2009)

Pzy-Clone @ Thu Oct 01 said:


> LOl...well, i dont mean to imply im not polite, just being nice without any substance gets you nowhere
> 
> yeah but consider this as well, there are many nationalities in here, sometimes people aply a different set of communicative interpretations and assume its rudness or that someone is being offensive, when they are in fact not at all.
> 
> ...



You make some good points about different cultures, languages and perspectives.There's is a lot to be taken into consideration, and I'll keep your statement in mind..

I disagree that civility means needing to accept things you don't agree with. I think it's more about debating politely and expressing things politely. That doesn't preclude humor, irony, edge, but it does suggest that a very strongly held opinion need not be expressed in the first way it comes to mind to do so. 

Look- I really like this place. Frankly, my main objective is to not watch it turn into N.S.
No way I can stop that progression, but I care enough to try.

Anyway, I'm done with civics. I hear myself becoming preachy.::slaps self repeatedly::


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## Niah (Oct 1, 2009)

"1 in 2 chance you'll misunderstand a text-based Internet message:
wired.com — Study shows that even though the sender will expect you to understand their tone and meaning 80% of the time, you'll really only understand them about 50% of the time. This is because "people aren't that good at imagining how a message might be understood from another person's perspective."


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## lux (Oct 2, 2009)

i think its not just a matter of nationality and communication pratices (they occur though, so i agree).

There's also a bit problem of language. Using english i can express just a portion of my communication ablities. Also i read stuff that, not having heard in real life how they sound and what they "really" mean, i can easily misunderstanding and assign wrong (and often negative) significances.


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## lux (Oct 2, 2009)

> FWIW I wrote these two pieces with KH libraries:
> 
> http://www.frischat.com/compose/HFrischat_KH_StringQuintet.mp3 (http://www.frischat.com/compose/HFrisch ... uintet.mp3)
> http://www.frischat.com/compose/HFrischat_012855_01.mp3
> ...



Nice music Hannes


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## germancomponist (Oct 2, 2009)

lux @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> i think its not just a matter of nationality and communication pratices (they occur though, so i agree).
> 
> There's also a bit problem of language. Using english i can express just a portion of my communication ablities. Also i read stuff that, not having heard in real life how they sound and what they "really" mean, i can easily misunderstanding and assign wrong (and often negative) significances.



How true! +1

We Germans say "Sprachdenken", means you think in a language.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 2, 2009)

I really admire you multi-lingual people. My brain doesn't work that way, and besides, pseudo-intellectual that I am, I took four years of high school Latin. REAL helpful.


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## Stevie (Oct 2, 2009)

Pzy-Clone @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> Since when is a "musicians" forum to be run on the premise of the people that want our money???
> Again..look at LASS, and the amount of praise it has gotten...and tell me people in here are always negative and out to get the developers??? I think not.



Absolutely Pzy, and LASS really deserved it. I don't see the point in NOT sharing our opinions here. Do we have money to throw out the window? I don't, I consider very 
carefully before buying a library. After all VI is not solely an advertising platform but a community. Most people seem to forget this.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 2, 2009)

Hmmm....I say we ban the damn developers. Wait...

except the ones we like. Yeah!


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## re-peat (Oct 2, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> I have created many lovely pieces with KH libraries, usually mixed with others. On the last project, my client said some of the cues made his eyes tear because he found them so touching.
> While I will happily link anyone to here they can buy it, I will not be posting it here. Why? Because I have no motivation to do so.
> 
> (...)
> ...



You always chicken out, don’t you, Jay? You refuse to comment on other’s people music here because that’s obviously an area where you can’t hide behind an established opinion, you’re unwilling to share your thoughts on successful composers because sheepishly acknowledging their succes takes of course much less courage then sharing a personal opinion about their work, you only formulate an opinion as your own after you’ve made sure you can do enough name-dropping (a desperate hobby of yours, I believe) to back you up, and now you refuse to post some of your music because, as you say, you’re not motivated to do so and don’t need the validation. Dear me. Jay “I think it’s fair to say I’m a Logic expert” Asher doesn’t need the validation ... (The only time you managed to make me spill my coffee with laughter was when I first read that statement of yours. The funniest thing I ever read on any forum anywhere.) This is not about validation, this is about information. I'm not interested in validating your work, I simply wanna hear some KH-rendered music that doesn't sound awful. Hannes responded (and most impressively too, I might add), why not you? After all, you're the big KH advocate, aren't you? And isn’t “talking the talk, walking the walk” a favourite expression of yours? Well then? Show some spine, put on your walking shoes (if you can still find them, that is). Now’s your chance to put your money where your mouth is. Rather than always hiding in the shadows of the big names - oh, how you wish you were one of them, don’t you? - why not reduce the V.I. audience to tears since that is what your “many lovely pieces” are apparently capable of?

On the one one hand, pretentious, pompous, puerile and patronizing enough to start lecturing people on their spelling or behaviour, usually at a time when you get cornered in a discussion (and all the more childish given the fact that hardly any post of yours makes it through without spelling errors and when we all know that this very thread started life with a monumental spelling mistake in its title, now conveniently corrected of course). And on the other hand, too gutless to ever step into the ring with something that might be called a personality. Always the frustrated and embittered schoolmaster. Quite sad. But funny as well, I’ll grant you that.

_


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## Dynamitec (Oct 2, 2009)

Wow...those threads always get crazy.

Anyway, I think we all have proof again, that musicians tend to never really grow up  Following the discussion I'm so reminded of my days back in school and how I disagreed with everybody .


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## stevenson-again (Oct 2, 2009)

jesus mate - steady on.


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2009)

re-peat @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I have created many lovely pieces with KH libraries, usually mixed with others. On the last project, my client said some of the cues made his eyes tear because he found them so touching.
> ...




This is a new low, even for you Piet. You, who in a private message, practically begged me not to hold our last public argument against you and how much you respected me.

I see you found where P is in the dictionary, congrats on that.

I have explained my reasons for not commenting on the work of other composers. It has nothing to do with courage, it has to do with my sense of what is appropriate. If you choose not to believe that and attribute it to cowardice, that is your choice. It does not matter to me.

Anyone who wants to hear my work can go to my website and if they want specific cues that use Kirk's strings, I will send them an mp3.

BTW, I find it extremely interesting that after all your KH bashing, you apparently downloaded his chamber strings. Did you actually spend your money just to be able to bash another of his products? I

You accuse me of being frustrated and bitter. I will let the others who have read both of our posts over time decide which of us who comes cross fitting that description more since you criticize others unprovoked while I only do so in defense of myself for someone whose work/products I believe in.

Either way, have a nice life, Piet.


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## lux (Oct 2, 2009)

this thread is derailing heavily off topic imho


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## Jaap (Oct 2, 2009)

How is the weather in Italy today? :mrgreen:


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 2, 2009)

Haven't checked in for a while, but wow! Never thought this thread would still be debating.


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 2, 2009)

Piet,Jay,

Do you guys really want to air in public your personal gripes. I remind both of you that many people read these forums, both members and non-members and some very distinguished. You guys might want to get together and consider deleting your posts even if you dislike each other. Leaving this stuff up might cost you in the future if someone is considering hiring you.


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## Hans Adamson (Oct 2, 2009)

To quote John Lennon: "It's nothing important - it's just rock'n'roll"

Why the vitriol? 8)


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2009)

Hans Adamson @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> To quote John Lennon: "It's nothing important - it's just rock'n'roll"
> 
> Why the vitriol? 8)



I as attacked and I responded. I am not a "turn the other cheek" kind of guy.


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## Frederick Russ (Oct 2, 2009)

Guys - please. Let's talk about sample libraries, stay on topic and stop with the direct personal attacks.


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## re-peat (Oct 2, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> BTW, I find it extremely interesting that after all your KH bashing, you apparently downloaded his chamber strings. Did you actually spend your money just to be able to bash another of his products?



Jay,

Well, yes, I do actually. Not to bash it necessarily, but to thoroughly familiarize myself with it. I happen to buy plenty of things - software, libraries, plugins, ... even things I don't really have an immediate use for - in order to get a really good idea of what it is worth (its qualities, its flaws) and, more importantly, in order to have the freedom to formulate an independent opinion about it. I'd much rather buy libraries than receive them for free - I've declined many such offers during my Sonikmatter days as a soundware moderator -, because once you do that, it becomes increasingly difficult to speak unbiased about a product. And once people know you're involved with certain developers - something I try to avoid at all costs: the only developers I'm actively involved with these days are Modartt and Mixosaurus - it weakens your position as a believable, neutral source of information and appreciation, and I won't have that happening.

So, the interesting thing here is not so much me buying the KH Chamber Strings yesterday, far more interesting, I find, is the fact that you know about this. How did that happen?

By the way, the reason I got angry with you is not so much your refusal to post some music - you have obviously every right not to do that, if you don't want to (although some music of you rendered with KH would have been most welcome here, I still think) but because of the way you treated hbuus earlier on in this thread, ridiculing his spelling and using that to undermine his arguments. I thought that was very ... how shall I put it ... er ... where is that 'P' in the dictionnary again?

As ever, aspergerially yours.

Piet

_


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## choc0thrax (Oct 2, 2009)

re-peat @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I have created many lovely pieces with KH libraries, usually mixed with others. On the last project, my client said some of the cues made his eyes tear because he found them so touching.
> ...



These are the types of refreshing posts that keep us from sinking into NS territory. o-[][]-o


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2009)

re-peat @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, I find it extremely interesting that after all your KH bashing, you apparently downloaded his chamber strings. Did you actually spend your money just to be able to bash another of his products?
> ...



OK, just a few quick points, no vitriol.

Remember, hbuus attacked Kirk for sloppiness and IMHO, not using a spell checker is intellectual sloppiness. You are free to disagree.

It is no secret that I talk to Kirk frequently and that he shows me his new products in advance of releasing them to get my opinion. After all, I have written "I just got back from Kirk's studio and, etc." many times. 

And yes, he was bewildered that you would buy a product of his after being so negative about them.

Guys, I am 61 years old as of Monday. When I hear a new library or see a movie and hear a score, I am always listening first to see what I like about it. If I find enough, I will praise it. If not, I will say nothing unless directly asked.

When I was younger, I looked for what I did not like. I think the approach I take now is a more constructive way to live.


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## RiffWraith (Oct 2, 2009)

Heh.

I am 40 years old as of right now. When I hear a new library or see a movie and hear a score, I am always listening first to see what I don't like about it. Then comes the thought process of 'what might I do to make it better'. Now, would it actually be better? Maybe not, but thinking this way has made me a better musician; since I started doing this several years ago, I have seen a vast improvement in not only how I compose, but how I approach compositions and how they relate to picture(s). Not saying one way is right and the other wrong; just my findings about myself personally.


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## hbuus (Oct 2, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> Remember, hbuus attacked Kirk for sloppiness and IMHO, not using a spell checker is intellectual sloppiness. You are free to disagree.



Just for the record, while others may see it differently, I did not see your comment about my spelling as some kind of personal and malicious attack. It made good sense in the context, and you are right: Not using a spell checker can be seen as intellectual sloppiness. I don't take it so seriously though, if I make a spelling error here and there. I'm not a native English speaker, so I'm excused  

(I didn't really bother - and still don't - going into a discussion with you about the difference between being sloppy when you write on a board on the Internet as a private person, and being sloppy on the job if you're working as a professional sample library developer.)


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## lux (Oct 2, 2009)

Jaap @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> How is the weather in Italy today? :mrgreen:



it rains hands down. I like rain


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## Guy Bacos (Oct 2, 2009)

And the Montreal Canadians beat Toronto in overtime last night! Take that Ned, Mr. Bruins..


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## Niah (Oct 2, 2009)

lux @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> Jaap @ Fri Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > How is the weather in Italy today? :mrgreen:
> ...



you should try london then, you'll like it :mrgreen:


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## lux (Oct 2, 2009)

well i like italy when it rains. it smells nice


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## re-peat (Oct 2, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> (...) When I hear a new library or see a movie and hear a score, I am always listening first to see what I like about it. If I find enough, I will praise it. If not, I will say nothing unless directly asked.(...)



Whenever I buy a new library, I always start with a curious, open mind, at first studying what’s available and then trying to discover all the ways in which it’ll be able to help my music. In other words: neither optimistically or pessimistically inclined.
If there are flaws — the synthyness and lifeless sustains in the Appassionatas, the nasal violas and rumbly double basses in the SonicImplants, the ‘carpet-y’ long articulations in the StringEssentials, the sterile quality of some of the Horizon Chamber strings, the coldness in Ivory, the timbral gaps in the velocity layers of SAM’s brass, etc. ... — I’ll usually just say “mmm, that’s a pity” and then try to tweak the available contents in such a way that these flaws can be disguised or worked around. Because that’s what you can nearly always do with a good library: customize it to make it work for you. With LASS for instance, I’m still trying to find a good way to minimize the penetrating timbre of its higher velocities (a sound which I don’t particularly like) and I’m convinced I’ll get there, one way or the other. Because it’s a terrific library.

In the case of Mr. Hunter’s libraries however, the flaws are just too big and numerous to be covered with the mantle of kind forgiveness or lenient acceptance, let alone be disguised with the aid of cunning trickery. Everytime I try something with KH’s strings, I’m simply baffled by the incomprehensible carelessness with which these libraries are put together. “Sloppy” is indeed a very accurate description (and I hope I’ve spelled this correctly - or is it 'spelt'?). In every one of his libraries there are actually a number of rather beautiful sounds, but the presence of each such pearl is rendered completely useless by the astounding amount of unacceptable stinkers which surround it. (For details about these smelly artifacts, see my 2nd post in this thread.) And it’s those inconsistencies, which kill the whole KH experience for me.

The thing I don’t understand is this: Mr. Hunter obviously invests a huge amount of time in crafting his libraries — all that zealous processing (eq’ing, noise-reducing, sample-manipulating, etc. ... must require loads of hours and effort — and yet, they come out invariably sounding as if thrown together in the most clumsy and haphazard of ways. Why is that? Why isn’t he able to create a single patch of celli that sounds homogenous and convincing from top to bottom? Why do his marcatos sound like acidized razorblades — wars can be won with those sounds, I believe — and do some of the sustains have this lovely expressive character? Doesn’t he hear that these samples are completely incompatible and thus make useless instruments? I guess he doesn't. Which is why I feel I have to say a lot more than just "mmm, that's a pity".

_


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## re-peat (Oct 2, 2009)

It might seem that I’m exaggerating when judging the KH libraries, but here’s a *short collage* (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH%20ChamberStrings_audio1.mp3 (example 1)) of ‘out of the box’ KH Chamber Strings sounds, i.o.w. patches being played as they load into the EXS, without any modification whatsoever. So, I haven't made this any better or worse as it is.

In order of appearance: 
- 3 celli spiccato rr 
- 3 celli pizzicato
- 3 celli marcato
- 4 violins legato (heavy vibrato)
- 4 violins vivo (light vibrato)
- chamber ensemble sustain
 
The ticks in the violins example can be very easily removed by adjusting the ADSR, but it’s there (in nearly every violin patch) when you load them as they are delivered. But just listen to those metallic high celli, ugly as can be, and that strange twangy pizzicato, or the sounds jumping from left to right with every other note, or the bizarre modulation in the sustained violins, or the timbral inconsistencies when the whole ensemble is heard. That's what I mean with "the KH sound".

However, there’s some good stuff too. Here’s a quick *little piece* (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH%20ChamberStrings_audio2.mp3 (example 2)) I made with the Chamber Violas spiccato (and a bit of pizzicati for foundation). Not yet quite the sound I have in my head when I want chamber violas spiccato, but very useful nonetheless (especially when layered with other libraries) and at times possessing a surprisingly beautiful, wooden character. Such a shame that this particular quality isn’t present in the rest of the library.

_


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## Ed (Oct 2, 2009)

lol


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## choc0thrax (Oct 2, 2009)

re-peat @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> It might seem that I’m exaggerating when judging the KH libraries, but here’s a *short collage* (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH%20ChamberStrings_audio1.mp3 (example 1)) of ‘out of the box’ KH Chamber Strings sounds, i.o.w. patches being played as they load into the EXS, without any modification whatsoever. So, I haven't made this any better or worse as it is.




Cool. I love out of the box demos. I think we can all agree that it's annoying when developers release heavily polished demos and you can't get a good idea of how cra-- how the lib works right out of the box. =o


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## Hannes_F (Oct 2, 2009)

re-piet,

1st track: Ouch my ears hurt
2nd track: Genius at work


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## bmiller360 (Oct 2, 2009)

FWIW, I had the joy of hearing much of Kirk's new strings, that are still being programmed, this morning. They are going to be amazing and the flexibility is beyond most of the other libs out there. I'm not looking to blindly defend kirk and his libraries........they don't need my, or anyone else's defense. However, it seems that there is some very silly, over the top ripping of his stuff, to the point where I can't believe there's not something very personal going on. I actually asked Kirk and he maintained that he had no idea why the "wing-nuts (MY words, not his) are so intense and venomous. Funny, I read some of these attacks and have to roll my eyes and wonder why I even bother reading them in the first place.........except that my mix was Wednesday and I've got the time to veg out and watch the fireworks.
One last thing..............I had the honor of writing the music for the Bill Clinton documentary in 1992 called "The Man From Hope". This was his last big push before the election and I used a small orchestra........around 28 or 30 players. It was a successful session and all concerned were very pleased. When it came to 2000 and the Hillary campaign, there was no time at all to get the documentary done in time for dub and delivery, so the producers came to my house and we did one cue after another to complete the score in about 7 or 8 hours in my studio. Please don't even think that I don't hear the difference, or wouldn't use the "real thing" in a heartbeat over and sampled orchestra, but I must say that Kirk's strings were the only strings on that film, as well as the Clinton Library film a couple years later. There was not one word of question regarding the quality of the orchestra in these films. The producers, who are extremely discerning, along with the dubbing mixers found the whole score to sit very naturally in the soundtracks and not a word was said about fake or raspy, or any other negative. I may not be the genius that others on this forum might be, but I know when it gets out of hand with personal slams going down and all I can say is..............I hope someone's making it worth your while, 'cause it ain't doing your image much good to be so vitriolic. Maybe we should all go and write some music.
respectfully,
bruce miller


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 2, 2009)

Well, another FWIW... I liked Bruce's post. I'm not overly familiar with Kirk Hunter's libraries and don't pretend to be, but I've certainly liked some of what I've heard. IMHO nothing really justifies some of the most extreme negative posts. Or course, in general negative posts ARE FINE, and indeed necessary. But I think it should be kept at a constructive level - say it doesn't work for you and why - rather than the bolder "all stuff from XXX is S**T" level which we very occasionally see. I value developer input here, and as a response to these forums - both Cinesamples and Project Sam are directly responding to some criticisms I made right now, so it's very obvious to see the value of maintaining a good relationship with developers.

And then there is the issue of what this means on a busienss level. Most developers are small, and what we write here can have a big effect - this stuff will be googled forever more. Again, we should be nothing other than honest, but it's just my own view that we should collectively make sure it's always fair, appropriate and doesn't descend into tarnishing a whole reputation.

If, in your experience, everything KHH libraries is rubbish, then that is clearly a view that many others - including experienced composers - do not share. Surely the appropriate response is to say "I've never got on with the libraries, and here's why" rather than degenerate it into suggesting that KH has no idea what he is doing, everything is shoddy and always will be. This is an innacurate statement of fact it seems to me, rather than one person's personal opinion.

Well just my $0.02... off to work I go!


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## Ashermusic (Oct 2, 2009)

hbuus @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> Ashermusic @ Fri Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > Remember, hbuus attacked Kirk for sloppiness and IMHO, not using a spell checker is intellectual sloppiness. You are free to disagree.
> ...



I am glad you did not take it as "some kind of personal and malicious attack" because indeed it was not meant to be. I was merely trying to point out that because one is sloppy in one area does not mean he will be so in his work.

I do not attack people until they attack me or people I respect. Then I will indeed attack back quite strongly. While I make no apologies for that, I do not enjoy it.

So after some reflection I have decided not to post here anymore. I will still visit to glean information and when I hear something I like I will PM that person and tell them so, as I already frequently do. When I see Logic questions where I can be helpful, I will PM the questioner and then he/she will be free to share it if they like.

There are some terrific people who post here but I believe there is a toxic element that is essentially negative and I do not really need that in my life. Unlike many here, I simply do not believe that we learn nearly as much by criticizing what we do not like in the work of others as we learn from focusing on what we do like in the work of others. And clearly many of you, by your own admission do not see it that way, which frequently makes this an unpleasant experience for me.

Ciao.


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## Rob (Oct 3, 2009)

There's a warm, human quality in KH strings that I really like... everytime I write some strings music I end up using some of Kirk's libraries, be it old virtuoso strings, solo, chamber, studio, symphonic. I'm looking forward to the release of this new library. 

Roberto


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## Jan16 (Oct 3, 2009)

I didn’t bother to read all the messages in this inane thread, simply because of the vitriolic tone in a number of messages.

Making music is an art, giving criticism is an art.
Why not treat others the way you want to be treated?

Some of those contributing in this thread could really benefit from some self reflection and learn to communicate in a friendlier way. 

I’m reminded of the words of the wise king Solomon when he wrote ‘a gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.’
It’s something worth thinking about, there’s already too much anger and strife in this world. Make a difference.

Peace/love andsoforth :wink:


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## hbuus (Oct 3, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> So after some reflection I have decided not to post here anymore. I will still visit to glean information and when I hear something I like I will PM that person and tell them so, as I already frequently do. When I see Logic questions where I can be helpful, I will PM the questioner and then he/she will be free to share it if they like.
> 
> There are some terrific people who post here but I believe there is a toxic element that is essentially negative and I do not really need that in my life. Unlike many here, I simply do not believe that we learn nearly as much by criticizing what we do not like in the work of others as we learn from focusing on what we do like in the work of others. And clearly many of you, by your own admission do not see it that way, which frequently makes this an unpleasant experience for me.
> 
> Ciao.



I'm sorry to hear that, Jay. But I understand what you're getting at.

I think it ought to be possible to have a discussion, even a heated one, without anybody getting overly personal. Clearly, this thread shows it is not so here on vi control however. That's a shame.

Not sure what can be done about it, really. But I really hate the fact that as there are just about no restrictions in terms of moderation here, some people can say whatever they want, and get as personal and vicious as they please, without fear of any consequences.

I wish you the best of luck, Jay, and hope at some point to see you posting here again.

Best regards,
Henrik


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## janila (Oct 3, 2009)

re-peat @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> Here’s a quick little piece (example 2)


Great piece! Unfortunately the string samples don't do it justice. Then again the piano does, which library is it?


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## Ed (Oct 3, 2009)

For those sayng Kirk Hunter is decent what do they say about that re-peat demo?


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## stevenson-again (Oct 3, 2009)

> For those sayng Kirk Hunter is decent what do they say about that re-peat demo?



well for those saying it isn't what about the latest demo on the KH website? it isn't that bad.

the examples we heard before didn't sound like they were actual string samples - more like samples of synth strings.


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## re-peat (Oct 3, 2009)

hbuus @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> I think it ought to be possible to have a discussion, even a heated one, without anybody getting overly personal. Clearly, this thread shows it is not so here on vi control however. That's a shame.



*Henrik,*

That's precisely the thing you see: I can't talk about music _without_ getting personal. A flaw in my genes, maybe, but I just can't. I can talk at length about spaghetti sauce without getting personal, or movies, or whatever, but not music. And I can't stand the civil politeness, the safe superficialness, the respectful forum codes and the well-behaved, 'constructive' emptyness of it all when it comes to talking or making music.
You might add that my little run-in with Jay had nothing to do with music per se and then I have to say: "Yes, you're right" but it all ties in with this intolerable feeling I'm having here that polite and harmless mediocrity is the accepted standard these days, and that, for the sake of having a civilized discussion, music has to take a few steps backwards. And I just can't stand it. You see, for the exact same reason that I hate most mock-ups (and get into trouble when discussing those), I refuse to accept the fact that we're supposed to be respectful towards someone like Mr. Hunter who, in my opinion, delivers vastly inferior musical tools. I don't really care whether he's a nice guy or a great violinist or if some Los Angeles hotshot speaks highly of him, the simple truth is that his musical product smells bad. And that needs to be said. So yes, I might offend a few good souls along the way, but my anger comes from being just as offended as well: by the absurd and horrific assumption that we're supposed to accept and approach this sub-standard material with respect and goodwill. I'm sorry, but I won't.

*Janila,*

Thanks. The piano is the Vienna Grand from the Galaxy II collection (BestService).

_
_


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 3, 2009)

Ed @ 3/10/2009 said:


> For those sayng Kirk Hunter is decent what do they say about that re-peat demo?



Blech! >8o 

Now though, I'd like to hear some music by Roberto, featuring KH strings, of course! :wink:


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## germancomponist (Oct 3, 2009)

Ashermusic @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> So after some reflection I have decided not to post here anymore. I will still visit to glean information and when I hear something I like I will PM that person and tell them so, as I already frequently do. When I see Logic questions where I can be helpful, I will PM the questioner and then he/she will be free to share it if they like.
> 
> There are some terrific people who post here but I believe there is a toxic element that is essentially negative and I do not really need that in my life. Unlike many here, I simply do not believe that we learn nearly as much by criticizing what we do not like in the work of others as we learn from focusing on what we do like in the work of others. And clearly many of you, by your own admission do not see it that way, which frequently makes this an unpleasant experience for me.
> 
> Ciao.



Very sadly to read this. 

This thread reminds me to some other threads where some good people have gone.

0oD


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## NYC Composer (Oct 3, 2009)

I think you offend a fair amount of people, Piet, and you do it deliberately, and it has nothing to do with your passion for music or your stance on sloppy work or anything other than your lack of desire for controlled expression. ANYTHING you've said since I've been here could have been said less contemptuously with very little effort, and been equally or possibly even more effective. My belief is you enjoy expressing yourself in the manner you do, and you enjoy taking a self indulgent and scornful approach to things that annoy you.

Do you REALLY thing that in a world of form and content, ONLY content matters??
The screaming of a polarized media and the politicization and general anger of people these days should inform you of a different reality.

'I can't' is just shorthand for 'I won't', and I think you should have the moral courage to say so.....that it's not that you_ can't _control your expressions, it's that you refuse to. You're obviously a very intelligent fellow. Genetic?? Pah.

Since I'm making this post specifically personal in response to yours, two additional personal outlooks from my side:

1. I think it's important in a forum such as this that people are not so thin skinned ( Jay Asher, I'm speaking to you) that they get so horribly upset by the behind computer screen rudeness of others , and..

2. This feud stuff is for the birds. There should be some middle ground between the Jay Ashers of the world and the Piets of the world. Jay has sort of admitted to some fanboy-ism re KH stuff. Piet has said he hates the stuff before, ad nauseum already. Despite my feelings about your manner, Piet, I think you're a very valuable member of this community. I enjoy your insights, your obvious musicality, and I rarely disagree with you on matters of content. I also enjoy much of the same from Jay, his insights, his technical know-how. He has a lot to contribute. It's ridiculous to lose either one of you because of a urination contest and an unwillingness on Piet's part to bank his fire a tad.

So there. Phew.


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## NYC Composer (Oct 3, 2009)

lux @ Fri Oct 02 said:


> well i like italy when it rains. it smells nice



My strongest memory of a trip to Israel years ago... is the smell of spring rain on the stone of the streets and walls of Jerusalem.


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## lux (Oct 3, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> lux @ Fri Oct 02 said:
> 
> 
> > well i like italy when it rains. it smells nice
> ...



sounds nice


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## Rob (Oct 3, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ 3rd October 2009 said:


> Ed @ 3/10/2009 said:
> 
> 
> > For those sayng Kirk Hunter is decent what do they say about that re-peat demo?
> ...




here's the guideline I did last year for a subsequent real strings recording, all KH except bass. This is only part of the strings track, and I'm not allowed to post the finished song.


http://www.robertosoggetti.com/KHStrings.mp3

PS there's a click at 32, I know...


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## re-peat (Oct 3, 2009)

Perhaps you’re right, *Larry*. And you’re spot on with your observation that I do it deliberately (the ‘genes’ remark was just a joke - I should have used the appropriate smiley). Look, I’ve explained my tactlessness before, I’m not going to do it again, I simply want to add: bad form as it may be (and I’m fully aware that it is), it is sincere from start to finish — you can verify that by checking the various subject matter which has triggered my past derailments — and not some form of selfindulgent divertissement at the cost of whoever happens to be around at the time. 
‘Sincerity’ is no excuse of course, I know that (murder can be sincere too), but I’m still convinced 100% that, in the long run, my approach — disgraceful as it may be — is a positive one in that it makes people stop for a moment and reflect about the issues at hand. I might come out of this being considered a rude, arrogant and insensitive asshole, but that’s not important — fair enough, I’d say —, the important thing is that people will hopefully pay closer attention to the quality of their music. 
You won’t find any better threads on Kirk Hunter’s libraries than on V.I.: people defending those libraries have to work a little harder here than, say, over at NS, because the opposing voice is much stronger. And that results in a discussion which is a million times more useful to any interested party than anything you can read anywhere else.

On a far more superficial level, these stormy threads also seem to be very good for the forum. People like to read this type of thing — one unleashed dog yapping at the others — , it’s certainly a hell of a lot more entertaining than discussing the specs of Vienna Ensemble Pro (useful as that may be). All those people don’t really care whether music is important to me (or anyone else) or not — and no one says they should —, to them all of this is just a pleasant and entertaining way to get through the next 5 minutes. I mean, well over 8.000 views in just a few days! Apart from the fact that this indicates a pleasant boost in merry activity, they’re also the sort of numbers which the advertisers surely will appreciate, don’t you think?

*Gunther,*

I wouldn’t be too upset about Jay’s temporary departure, if I were you. He’ll be back before you know it. It’s simply a melodramatic _coup de theatre_ to add some weight to the proceedings. A classic, if slightly overused manoeuvre in these parts of the woods. He’s announced his retreat many times before, but it never happens. Jay loves this place too much, can't you tell? So don’t you worry. All will be well.

*Rob,*

That's again a gorgeous bit of music and a very impressive sound as well. With just 60 seconds of music, you've managed to undermine almost my entire argument. Nice!

_


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## Niah (Oct 3, 2009)

germancomponist @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> Ashermusic @ Sat Oct 03 said:
> 
> 
> > This thread reminds me to some other threads where some good people have gone.
> ...



...and they always come back :mrgreen:


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 3, 2009)

Thanks for that excerpt, Roberto!


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## lux (Oct 3, 2009)

Yup, nice as always Roberto. 

What did u use specifically on this?


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## NYC Composer (Oct 3, 2009)

Piet- lions, Christians, gladiators, entertainment for a bloodthirsty crowd? Really?

Charming.

I stand by my statement. Your content is admirable. Your form sucketh. I disagree that the way you go about things is necessary to attain your goals. You could present the same things in a different way and they would be equally effective-but yeah, that would be that fake civility crap you hate so much. Better to make a circus out of things for the benefit of the advertisers. Mm hmm.

I was already aware that you're unapologetic about your approach, and it's good of you to admit the deliberate and self indulgent nature of it.

As for myself, I keep getting sucked back in and preaching the same old tired politesse.
Please, have the last word. I'm done this time, promise.


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## Rob (Oct 3, 2009)

re-peat @ 3rd October 2009 said:


> .... With just 60 seconds of music, you've managed to undermine almost my entire argument. Nice!
> 
> _



:D haha Piet, looks like contradicting you is becoming my favourite hobby... 

o-[][]-o 

Ned, you're welcome...

Lux, if I remember correctly it was mostly symphonic strings, with some studio strings and a couple of patches from the old virtuoso strings. All BC controlled and SIPS'd, it's been a year, though... I have opened the original reaper configuration for that file, but since I uninstalled Kontakt 2 the program isn't able to find the correct patches, sorry...

Roberto


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## lux (Oct 3, 2009)

nono, thats ok, i just wanted to know which of the packages you used. Thanks.


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## re-peat (Oct 3, 2009)

NYC Composer @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> (...) You could present the same things in a different way and they would be equally effective-but yeah, that would be that fake civility crap you hate so much. Better to make a circus out of things for the benefit of the advertisers. (...)



No, I couldn’t. Just go find me a thread anywhere on the web where you can learn as much about Kirk Hunter’s libraries as you did here. This is the only thread, the only circus in town so-to-speak, which brings you the very best and the very worst in Kirk’s catalogue.

_


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## hbuus (Oct 3, 2009)

Piet, a while back I put up a piece of music here on Members Comp. Review.
It was a Brahms mock-up which, admittedly, was of very poor quality  
I don't remember exactly what it was that you wrote in your comment back then, but I remember it made me feel like I was completely no good, and that I might as well quit making music because I'd never learn.
I just felt terrible after reading that comment and ended up not attempting to make music for several months.
This is the problem I have with your way of expressing yourself.
It seems to me that you do your utmost to not only step on certain other people's toes, but to hurt them, and hurt them good.
For me personally, I really have been hating your guts for a while because of how you behave.
On the other hand I must admit I have been grinning wildly when I read your comments in this thread about Kirk Hunter, his website & his sample libraries 8) :lol: 
Because I knew what you said was true.
Also, I respect your talent for making music.
What's more, I believe in freedom of speech.
You can't really bend this principle IMO; either you have it, or you don't.
With this in mind, I have also come to think that Jay (and myself, and others) can just turn the deaf ear to what you're saying, if we don't like it.
I guess what I'm saying here is that on the one hand, I don't really like you because of the way you behave. Because I think it's unnecessary to say things in such a harsh way. On the other hand, I do like you and enjoy your verbal gunfire  
What I feel very strongly at least, is that there should be room here for you as well as for Jay and everybody else who wants to be here.
I believe we all love this place and make it what it is.
Oh well, I'll just go grab some coffee now, I think :D


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 3, 2009)

FWIW, I don't learn much from, "nice piece!" <shakes hand and then leaves>. 

I prefer: work on your awfully boring harmonies, take more chances with rhythm, make it simpler, more dynamic, your bass is not even in the mix, stop repeating every cliche under the sun, give your lines more of an interesting shape/evolution, etc, etc. 

If I were a developer, I'd love to have people like Piet around, even if his delivery can be harsh. The best teachers/artists I've met were not always sweet as candy, but the lessons learned were worth a thousand polite gestures.


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## lux (Oct 3, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> FWIW, I don't learn much from, "nice piece!" <shakes hand and then leaves>.
> 
> I prefer: work on your awfully boring harmonies, take more chances with rhythm, make it simpler, more dynamic, your bass is not even in the mix, stop repeating every cliche under the sun, give your lines more of an interesting shape/evolution, etc, etc.



for the sake of sincerity though Ned i think we all should admit that, despite how much we say about accepting a direct approach and a slap in the face, most of times we just hate that and react very badly.

This rule actually has no exceptions in my experience and includes all of my buddies here and privately. I've seen this in guys that started composing a week ago as much as in thirty years of career musicians. Its just human nature. And its pretty understandable.

We all know that we're sensitive and have different, but equally painful, reactions when touched.

That said, i learn a lot from my buddies when they just tell me the truth. But i think i accept harsh comments because i have a sincere relation with them and no one of us is trying to hide or fake stuff to the other. So i know that, while i receive a feedback i'm equally entitled to provide one, and my feedback is exteemed and appreciated.

This kind of relationship though rarely works on forums, where the public exposition and ridiculize is always a danger. Personally i can say i have a good number of forum only buddies that i like getting feedback and that i've exteem of, mostly because i dont feel they try to push themselves for something they're not.

Luca


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## stevenson-again (Oct 3, 2009)

rob that is really sensational. nice musicianship and composition but that is the best advertisement for KH strings i have heard. he should get you to make him some demos for his site.

it sits just beautifully as a mix and the reverb is transparent and gives just perfect depth. could you talk a little bit more about it?

what reverb did you use?
how hard did you have to work to get it sounding like that?
what pitfalls did you encounter?
do you still use them?


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 3, 2009)

Hans, I don't get that Piet attacked 'someone with a different point of view'. His rant was against KH's libraries, and the man himself, but not against another member, I believe.


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## Hans Adamson (Oct 3, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> Hans, I don't get that Piet attacked 'someone with a different point of view'. His rant was against KH's libraries, and the man himself, but not against another member, I believe.


Ned,
Do you consider the quote below from Piet's post a discussion about KH's sample libraries virtues?

_"You always chicken out, don’t you, Jay? You refuse to comment on other’s people music here because that’s obviously an area where you can’t hide behind an established opinion, you’re unwilling to share your thoughts on successful composers because sheepishly acknowledging their succes takes of course much less courage then sharing a personal opinion about their work, you only formulate an opinion as your own after you’ve made sure you can do enough name-dropping (a desperate hobby of yours, I believe) to back you up, and now you refuse to post some of your music because, as you say, you’re not motivated to do so and don’t need the validation. Dear me. Jay “I think it’s fair to say I’m a Logic expert” Asher doesn’t need the validation ... (The only time you managed to make me spill my coffee with laughter was when I first read that statement of yours. The funniest thing I ever read on any forum anywhere.) This is not about validation, this is about information. I'm not interested in validating your work, I simply wanna hear some KH-rendered music that doesn't sound awful. Hannes responded (and most impressively too, I might add), why not you? After all, you're the big KH advocate, aren't you? And isn’t “talking the talk, walking the walk” a favourite expression of yours? Well then? Show some spine, put on your walking shoes (if you can still find them, that is). Now’s your chance to put your money where your mouth is. Rather than always hiding in the shadows of the big names - oh, how you wish you were one of them, don’t you? - why not reduce the V.I. audience to tears since that is what your “many lovely pieces” are apparently capable of? 

On the one one hand, pretentious, pompous, puerile and patronizing enough to start lecturing people on their spelling or behaviour, usually at a time when you get cornered in a discussion (and all the more childish given the fact that hardly any post of yours makes it through without spelling errors and when we all know that this very thread started life with a monumental spelling mistake in its title, now conveniently corrected of course). And on the other hand, too gutless to ever step into the ring with something that might be called a personality. Always the frustrated and embittered schoolmaster. Quite sad. But funny as well, I’ll grant you that."_


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 3, 2009)

Oops! :oops: :oops: :oops: 

Mea culpa for missing that post. My only excuse, and it's not the best, is that I didn't read everything in the 7 pages.

That is really not cool, IMO. It's nasty, very personal, and should be expressed privately. That's what PMs are for (although I don't wish this kind of put-down on anyone, really).

I think, Piet, if you want to 'walk the walk', an apology for that post would be more than welcomed by many of us, I'm sure.


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## bryla (Oct 3, 2009)

First of all I respect Piet, Jay and Kirk for what I know of them. Henrik: I know what you're saying that criticism can make you feel that way because it's honest criticism, and when you get it in your face, you take it really personal. I know it from here, and from my many teachers through the years. It's hard - you make an effort - it's not enough. Rather have that really thought through criticism that's cuts to the bone and really states what personally doesn't do it for the person giving that critique - Piet in this case - instead of the ones that Ned talks about: fine music, shakes hand and leaves.

Either you learn to take it or you don't. I haven't, but I convince myself every time it happens that it is for the good of my music


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## re-peat (Oct 3, 2009)

*Ned,*

If you believe that my apologies for that particular post are going to make ‘many of us’ feel better, than I see no reason why I shouldn’t oblige. Before that though, I want to say that I’d much rather apologize to Henrik first, so ...

*Henrik,*

I was pretty shaken earlier this evening to learn that my words have prevented you from making music for months on end. That’s a most horrible consequence and one which I surely never intended. For that, I’m really truly sorry. Honestly.

I must add though that I just went looking for what it was precisely that caused you so much distress and all I could find were my posts in your thread about Beethoven’s 7th: http://vi-control.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... highlight= (I don’t seem to have replied in any other composition thread which you started.) Now, I hope you will forgive me, but I really don’t see what was so particularly discouraging or offending about those particular posts of mine. Re-reading my entries in that thread, I actually find them to be not entirely unhelpful and even containing a crumb of what might be called sensible advice. 
Even so, helpful or not, it doesn’t change the very sad fact that you felt pretty bad because of what I said, so I really hope you will accept my sincerest apologies.

*Back to you, Ned,*

Where were we? Ah, apologies for that animated interlude with Jay, right? Ok. It’s more than clear by now that the majority of people consider such postings to be completely out of order, and it would indeed be very wrong of me to keep ignoring that. So, to everyone who, after reading anything that I wrote, felt worse than before: my apologies.

And a special and very profound apology to Mr. Hunter. I’ve said things about him and his work which, in hindsight, were somewhat unfair and misguided. Even though I will probably never warm to the larger part of his catalogue, I have to accept and respect the fact that many other people do, and their views, choices and preferences are of course just as valid, meaningful and important to them as mine are to me.

_


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## noiseboyuk (Oct 3, 2009)

Well how nice! Let's all do a version of "We Are The World!"

Now, what strings do you think we should use?


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## Rob (Oct 3, 2009)

stevenson-again @ 3rd October 2009 said:


> ...
> 
> what reverb did you use?
> how hard did you have to work to get it sounding like that?
> ...



thank you very much, stevenson-again... the only thing I can tell you for sure is reverb was Uad's Realverb-pro. I worked quite a bit on the track because I wanted the string players to have a clear idea of how to play their parts. The producer eventually decided to keep my strings as a reinforcement for the live players' recording  . And yes, I still use those libraries, along with others I have, deciding from time to time what to use and when.

Roberto


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 3, 2009)

You're a good man, Piet, thanks for doing that. If I may suggest, next time you wanna get personal (in a heated way) with a member, use PMs. 

Nothing with fun jabs between long-time members. It would be bull to pretend that we don't know what buttons to push with some of us who hang out here all the time. Personally, I'm cool with teasing, but I don't think this should be a place for public wedgies. >8o


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## choc0thrax (Oct 3, 2009)

Bruins suck!!111one


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## bmiller360 (Oct 3, 2009)

to Re-Peat................your apology was ONLY a very good thing. It's not easy to face up to ourselves, but you did it in public and that's even more difficult. Kudos for really getting it right. I can speak for all of us involved in this little drama..........thanks for being a PRO. There's much more to that term than just the music and you displayed the best of it in that last post!
bruce
btw: that "example 2" was pretty impressive, but without that apology, you'd have to rip this prop out of my cold, dead brain!


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## artsoundz (Oct 3, 2009)

z'The closest anyone ever got, in my opinion, was fellow member Rob, but I'm sure he can make a convincing virtual string orchestra out of sampled cigarette paper.)"

I haven't laughed much lately but this one did it for me. Thanks, Piet.


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## david robinson (Oct 3, 2009)

i hope you guys, as constructive - destructive your
criticisms my be, could get get you a law suite wrapped 'round your heads.
and one that would cost you a lot of money to win.
David R.


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## hbuus (Oct 4, 2009)

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## LFO (Oct 4, 2009)

Perhaps another bit of a silver lining to this thread.
I'm new here and I don't have 1/10th the skill most of you have. But I want to learn.

Reading through this thread I was pretty upset because of the personal attacks going on. I posted something (that was rude itself) then thought better of it and removed the post. I'm glad I did.

The silver lining: I have learned more about KH libraries from this thread than from any one source since I purchased the library several months ago. This includes both the `good' and `bad' demos posted. I thank everyone for posting them!

We musicians are a finicky bunch. We are all chock full of emotions. Some of us have thin skins, usually it is the seasoned musician who has a thick skin that he/she has developed because it is mandatory to survive in the music world. If you can't take criticism of your music you need to find another profession/hobby. You can't improve without critical comments from your peers. As I think we all have learned from this thread the key is to not make personal attacks. There is just no room for it.

I am amazed at the people this forum is comprised of. There is no higher quality group on the Internet when it comes to sample based music. I truly am not worthy to be here, but I am afraid I am going to stick around until someone boots me!

There is alot of negativity on this thread, but there is a helluva lotta good too. It seems we are moving past the negative and will move on with the positive, this is not always true on forums so kudos to all for doing so.

For what it is worth,

-Kevin


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## Coil (Oct 4, 2009)

yes, the KH Wesbsite is really messy and perhaps his Librarys are nothing Hans Zimmer would use :roll: but, I´m really satisfied with his Stuff and first of all, he is a really nice and helpful Guy.
emails will be answered very fast and friendly and you don`t have to pay always a big extra for every upgrade.

i also get these "ticks" in some Instruments, but i think this is more an exs24 behavior.
So there was a work around on his website, i can`t find anymore.
The Samples itself don`t have these "ticks".


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## TheoKrueger (Oct 5, 2009)

> > > "More demos please!!!!"
> >
> >
> >
> ...



+1

(what a lame way to ask for more demos :lol: )


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## Hannes_F (Oct 5, 2009)

re-peat @ Sat Oct 03 said:


> It might seem that I’m exaggerating when judging the KH libraries, but here’s a *short collage* (http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH%20ChamberStrings_audio1.mp3 (example 1)) of ‘out of the box’ KH Chamber Strings sounds, i.o.w. patches being played as they load into the EXS, without any modification whatsoever. So, I haven't made this any better or worse as it is.
> 
> In order of appearance:
> - 3 celli spiccato rr
> ...



Hi Piet,

I was a little scared by the sound of this demo because I thought my version of KH strings was sounding better. To make sure I recorded some similar lines with the celli of the (old) KH concert strings out of the box:

http://www.strings-on-demand.com/demos/ ... tCelli.mp3

Two notes: In order to check probably inconsistencies I quantizend and egalized the first run, the rest is played more loosely/musical in order to emulate real musos. And while I think the marcato at the end is still a problem it helps to lift the finger from the keyboard early enough because a marcato is supposed to be attacked but half-long with a defined end.

Overall I think this sounds much better than your demo and this could explain in a natural way why opinions differ so vastly in this thread. May it be related to EXS vs. Kontakt versions or different incarnations of the library during the years, but obviously different different posters here have been experiencing very different products all subsummed as "KH strings".


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## re-peat (Oct 5, 2009)

*Hannes,*

Thanks for that. I agree it does sound better, but I'm sure that everybody wil concur that this is still not a stringsound that's ever going to be nominated for any award.
What strikes me most of all though, between your and my example, is the similarity of the uglyness (and where it appears) in both packages. Those splinter bomb marcato's, for instance, sound almost identical in the "Chamber Strings" as in the "Concert Strings". (And I seem to remember hearing a very similar sound in the "Virtuoso Strings" as well as in "Emerald".)

A while ago, I did some 'out-of-the-box' examples of the KH StudioStrings:

http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH_Basses.mp3 (KH Studio Strings Basses)
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH_Cellos.mp3 (KH Studio Strings Celli)
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH_Violas.mp3 (KH Studio Strings Violas)
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH_Violins_01.mp3 (KH Studio Strings Violins 1)
http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH_Violins_02.mp3 (KH Studio Strings Violins 2)

(Again, as before, these are the sounds as they appear when loading the default, unmodified EXS-patches, except for some added reverb.)

I'm beginning to think that Kirk's "Speciality of the House" are those slow, glowing expressivo strings (the type of articulations which Rob turned into such a breathtaking stringsound), but that most everything else on the Hunter menu is far less tasty and at times even quite undigestible.

_


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## Hannes_F (Oct 5, 2009)

re-peat @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> *Hannes,*
> 
> Thanks for that. I agree it does sound better, but I'm sure that everybody wil concur that this is still not a stringsound that's ever going to be nominated for any award.
> What strikes me most of all though, between your and my example, is the similarity of the uglyness (and where it appears) in both packages. Those splinter bomb marcato's, for instance, sound almost identical in the "Chamber Strings" as in the "Concert Strings". (And I seem to remember hearing a very similar sound in the "Virtuoso Strings" as well as in "Emerald".)



Yes the marcatos are problematic to say the least and I can not remember to having used them ever. However the rest is useable (I mean it in the sense of _useable_) and ...



> A while ago, I did some 'out-of-the-box' examples of the KH StudioStrings:
> 
> http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH_Basses.mp3 (KH Studio Strings Basses)
> http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/KH_Cellos.mp3 (KH Studio Strings Celli)
> ...



... I have heard much worse strings done with much more expensive libraries ...


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## Dynamitec (Oct 5, 2009)

If listen to this examples on my good headphones something soudns really strange on some examples. I can't put my finger on it...I don't think they are generally bad sounding (I think the violions can even sound very good and expressive in a mix) but somehow the examples sound very compressed and metallic. Almost like beeing processed with a very strong denoise plugin (FFT denosing algorithms can produce this "metallic" twang). Especially on the beginning of the Celli Demo. 
This is the only thing I don't really like about the examples. Other than that I think it doesn't sound that bad.


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## bmiller360 (Oct 5, 2009)

regarding these latest "test" demos........it is of utmost importance to understand that we are working on computers and such things as velocity and quantizing GREATLY affect the overall sound of any library. Give me a library of less stature and a "musical" musician programming that library any day over a quantized klunky test of the greatest, most respected library in the universe. One example I can say, and many of you will beat me up for this one is: when I need the most biting, aggressive strings for a cue................the old Roland Marcato Ensemble does what nothing else does. I use it in Kontakt and it rips everything else on the planet for what it's good for. It's not even divided up in specific sections.......just Marcato Ensemble...period. When Kirk was here last week, I showed this to him. He fully understood the magic, yet acknowledged the unsophisticated programming from so many years ago. That said, I will be positive that some of you on this forum have heard these stings in cues of mine over the years on TV, and wouldn't think twice about the fact that they're Roland, old, primitive strings and not the latest $5000.00 library. Most of those libs could never do what this simple little instrument does for me............and when I need it to just add some bite to a "normal" section a bit........right...........I use my mixer in my DAW and adjust how much of it I want and pan and efx to make it right.............and quickly too....not a time consuming effort to sit them in with other strings. Point is...........it may be "fun" to talk about the little minutia involved with these libs, but in the real world of deadlines and discerning producers and dubbing mixers, it's another whole story.
One last thing.........NOBODY that i've heard has nailed the mod-wheel portamento expression that Kirk Hunter has. When I need that expression and soul, his subtle slides and flexibility in those soaring portamentos have eluded me in every other lib i've heard.......period!
bruce


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## re-peat (Oct 5, 2009)

*Bruce,*

I agree, but the way in which each of us evaluates libraries depends very much on what we expect from them and what we intend to use them for. (A thought which seems to have completely eluded me during the earlier parts of this thread, resulting in some of my unfortunate and embarrassing exaggerations of negativity.) 
I simply have no use, none whatsoever, in any of my music, for these hyper-excited marcatos-on-steroïds which Kirk seems to be fond of. That's not the sort of stringsound I want or need. If ever I should use them, I know that they would simply ruin my music. Just like I can't imagine ever working on a piece where those weird metallic celli of his would deserve a place. Hence my disappointment in most of Kirk's output.

(Not to say that I'm against unnatural sounding strings per se: in my opinion, few sampled strings match the warmth, richness and effectiveness of the 'Emotional Strings'-pad from the old 'Orchestral' xpansionboard for Roland's XV-synths, a sound I've looked for in vain in any existing library.)

_


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## Niah (Oct 5, 2009)

Bruce don't worry about mentioned the roland strings.

Many here continously acknowledge the charm and magic of the old roland strings, or the atmosphere strings patches as many as other various older libraries.

Great libraries are always timeless and remind us all of the most important ingredient which is sound. Besides having a great sound those oldies are also very musical. These libraries have obviously alot of limitations in terms of performance capabilities but if you write the music with its strenghts in mind and not their weaknesses, you can go pretty far with them.

So in that sense, a library that has broken new grounds in playability and performance capabilities but sounds horrid is completely useless to me. 

But you see, newer libraries have to try to overcome these "roland" strings in other to give us more than just a good sound. Unfortunately not everyone succeeds as this difficult task.
All in all I find that I will still be using old libs as well as top-notch ones because they all complement each other so well. Essentially I feel that every new library tries to be different, tries to bring something new to the market but it doesn't try to replace this or that, just filling the gaps.

btw if you liked the concept of the roland strings, you might want to try symphobia from project sam


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## NYC Composer (Oct 5, 2009)

bmiller360 @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> regarding these latest "test" demos........it is of utmost importance to understand that we are working on computers and such things as velocity and quantizing GREATLY affect the overall sound of any library. Give me a library of less stature and a "musical" musician programming that library any day over a quantized klunky test of the greatest, most respected library in the universe. One example I can say, and many of you will beat me up for this one is: when I need the most biting, aggressive strings for a cue................the old Roland Marcato Ensemble does what nothing else does. I use it in Kontakt and it rips everything else on the planet for what it's good for. It's not even divided up in specific sections.......just Marcato Ensemble...period. When Kirk was here last week, I showed this to him. He fully understood the magic, yet acknowledged the unsophisticated programming from so many years ago. That said, I will be positive that some of you on this forum have heard these stings in cues of mine over the years on TV, and wouldn't think twice about the fact that they're Roland, old, primitive strings and not the latest $5000.00 library. Most of those libs could never do what this simple little instrument does for me............and when I need it to just add some bite to a "normal" section a bit........right...........I use my mixer in my DAW and adjust how much of it I want and pan and efx to make it right.............and quickly too....not a time consuming effort to sit them in with other strings. Point is...........it may be "fun" to talk about the little minutia involved with these libs, but in the real world of deadlines and discerning producers and dubbing mixers, it's another whole story.
> One last thing.........NOBODY that i've heard has nailed the mod-wheel portamento expression that Kirk Hunter has. When I need that expression and soul, his subtle slides and flexibility in those soaring portamentos have eluded me in every other lib i've heard.......period!
> bruce



I'm glad to hear your feelings on this. I still use the Roland Agitato violins patch extensively for its biting attack, and there are other 700 series patches I often use in Mach Five (best conversion). I'm never sure if it's because they sound good, only sound good to me, or my many years using the Roland S-700 series as my main sample playback units simply fried my brain. Regardless, I have nothing in Platinum Play that approaches the directness of that sound.

The fact that Eric Persing was involved in those sampling sessions probably didn't hurt. I remember one NAMM where the sampling team on the Roland orchestral project had a major catastrophe-crashed an entire magneto-optical disk-650 meg! Times have changed, but they did a tremendous amount with very little RAM.

As to KH, the examples haven't seemed to me as egregiously bad as they have to others, and in some instances quite good, which makes me think that given unlimited time, funds, and probably assistants, the best thing would be to own every library out there, then use the gems whilst skipping the clunky bits.


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## bmiller360 (Oct 5, 2009)

re-peat writes: I simply have no use, none whatsoever, in any of my music, for these hyper-excited marcatos-on-steroïds which Kirk seems to be fond of. That's not the sort of stringsound I want or need. If ever I should use them, I know that they would simply ruin my music. Just like I can't imagine ever working on a piece where those weird metallic celli of his would deserve a place. Hence my disappointment in most of Kirk's output. .
Again, it's an opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. Actually, my mentioning the Roland Marcato was because, honestly, Kirks strings, terrific as they may be, couldn't give me quite that level of "hyper-excitement" I get from Roland.
The very little bit of your music I've heard leads me to believe that you may have a bit of sequencing difficulty if KH celli are that metallic. I honestly do not hear what you're hearing, but.................I am sort of busy these days, but how about this. If I ever get the time, maybe we can have a little fun with this. Send me, off-forum a small midi file of some celli you've written that are "beyond" the quality level that KH celli are. Include a little notation for me and I'd like to try KH strings here in my studio with my interpretation and sequencing and see if maybe, you're just a bit over the top about how "horrible" they would make your music. I believe you felt they would ruin your music. Not speaking to the hobbyists on this forum, but to those of us who make our living doing this, it's hard to believe that KH strings would "ruin" your music. A bit of the vitriol that you apologized for earlier has sort of slipped back into this forum...............not good for your physical and emotional well being. Basically, if KH strings would "ruin" your music, maybe it's the music.......but I tend to doubt that , since I have heard a sliver of it and know you to be a capable musician at a very pro level. KH may not be your favorite strings, but to feel that strongly..............somethings not right here......hmmmmmmm. I am only persuing this whole nonsensical thread because i'm bored while i'm waiting for picture to show up to work and feel bad that you have this pain. You know, a BRILLIANT, BIG-HEARTED GENIUS friend of mine is tuning pianos in Oregon instead of winning more Academy Awards because of his intense intolerance to some of the same things you display in your words. When I say brilliant.........any composer here in LA would concur, but his attitude of negativity took him right out of the biz. I'd talked to him after an initial meeting for a new show he was hired for, only to find out that in that one meeting he literally talked himself OUT of the show. Very sad, and though you may have an amazing resume, have I heard any of your music on TV, movies, theatre or world-class concert stage? If not, we might want to seriously rethink the cause of this bitterness toward things that are not that important to hate so much. Look, I must have some of this deficiency i'm talking about, simply because i'm sitting here responding to you so strongly and spending this time when I could be watching MSNBC. In any case, you may want to look within, or tell me that you're a raging successful celebrity composer (which obviously I am NOT) and I will humbly go to my room and wonder how "I" got it so wrong. Best of luck to you, sincerely.
Lastly, yes I do know Symphobia and agree that it is fantastic, though others on this forum might feel otherwise and never let a SAM library darken their studio ever again.
respec to all,
bruce


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## Rob (Oct 5, 2009)

Dynamitec @ 5th October 2009 said:


> If listen to this examples on my good headphones something soudns really strange on some examples. I can't put my finger on it...I don't think they are generally bad sounding (I think the violions can even sound very good and expressive in a mix) but somehow the examples sound very compressed and metallic. Almost like beeing processed with a very strong denoise plugin (FFT denosing algorithms can produce this "metallic" twang). Especially on the beginning of the Celli Demo.
> This is the only thing I don't really like about the examples. Other than that I think it doesn't sound that bad.



I think Piet has posted muted strings examples, that would explain the strange "metallic" sound...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 5, 2009)

bmiller360 @ 5/10/2009 said:


> Lastly, yes I do know Symphobia and agree that it is fantastic, though others on this forum might feel otherwise and never let a SAM library darken their studio ever again.



Huh? :roll:


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## Jack Weaver (Oct 5, 2009)

I don’t think anyone here can legitimately discredit Piet’s compositional, intellectual or English language talents.

Perhaps he can get a bit excitable every once or a while but overall I think our forum benefits from his presence. 

This is one thread that could certainly die anytime soon and be dissolved into the mists of time and be forgotten forever. I pray that this will be the case for the emotional wellbeing of all involved. 

A few parting words from someone who had this figured out four centuries ago:

The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.

.


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## Niah (Oct 5, 2009)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Oct 06 said:


> bmiller360 @ 5/10/2009 said:
> 
> 
> > Lastly, yes I do know Symphobia and agree that it is fantastic, though others on this forum might feel otherwise and never let a SAM library darken their studio ever again.
> ...



(o) 

what makes you say that?

as far as I am aware of, Project Sam's libraries are usually very well received here


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## Craig Sharmat (Oct 5, 2009)

Bruce, if you are a Sesac writer then I know who you are. You write very well but if you heard re-peats mockups I believe you would be suitable impressed. He rarely posts anything for more than a couple of days and is multi-talented choosing to handpick when he wishes to do music as opposed to relying on it as a sole profession.


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## tmhuud (Oct 6, 2009)

Niah @ Mon Oct 05 said:


> Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Oct 06 said:
> 
> 
> > bmiller360 @ 5/10/2009 said:
> ...



I'm not Bruce but I think he was using a hypothetical here. i.e. there [may] be some people who do not care for Symphobia. Just as there [may be] some who do not care for KH...


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 6, 2009)

Sure, and there are some people who think that Salma Hayek is ugly.

What bugs me is the term, "... darken their studio ever again".


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## Niah (Oct 6, 2009)

there is also the possibility that bruce tried to make some kind of parallel with kirk hunter libraries and some reactions he saw here

but I think that what bruce and others failed to understand is that kirk hunter is one of the most controversial libraries there is out there


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 6, 2009)

Bruce,

The way you wrote about Piet in this latest post is quite insulting. You write as if you and Craig were having a private conversation or something. Would you talk about Piet that way if he was in the room with you and Craig? Because he is. Next time, I strongly suggest that you use a PM for this kind of exchange.


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## bmiller360 (Oct 6, 2009)

Ned...............sorry you feel this way. Actually, Craig and I don't really know each other. We may have met at some time and are familiar with each other, but that's about it.
Also, please do not take my stance toward Piet the wrong way. There is nothing negative I have said regarding his talent, etc. The only thing I have made a strong point of is his aggressive stance toward KH Strings and why they are so Terrible.......not saying that he doesn't care for them, but that they would "ruin his music" and he says much more in much srtronger language throughout this thread. This little tiff should not show any personal ill will toward Piet from me at all. He's probably a nice guy, but he gets pretty heated and that just reminds me so much of my friend I mentioned who's no longer in this business. I recall when fax machines first became available to consumers, he was furious that we need such immediate action. Why wasn't the US mail fast enough???? Well, Piet displays much the same anger, obviously over different stimuli. I do suppose I have gotten waaaaay to deep into all this and probably should have stopped my involvement many replies ago, but that's what happens when your immaturity (meaning mine) is let loose for too long. Nothing personal to Piet. He's a good musician and I should probably just wish him well and stop being so insistant on making my point. It's obviously going nowhere.
again with respec,
bruce


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Oct 6, 2009)

I think we all at one point or another forget that this is a public forum, not a private club with closed doors.


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