# When did you quit your day job to focus music?



## EFlexMusic (May 12, 2022)

I am curious about at what point have many composers actually stopped working a 9 to 5 because their music was helping them live. Like at what point did you say "I am finally doing music full time." What kinds of jobs do you do to make the money you need to live?


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## NuNativs (May 12, 2022)

Well personally I took to the internet to develop income that was location independent and have succeded at that. Problem is I'm super busy maintaining those incomes to survive that it doesn't leave enough time to pursue music. I've made money with music but not enough to live on fulltime. Not to be dismayed, I will press on till it happens...


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## HCMarkus (May 12, 2022)

I worked a day job for years, but always pursued music professionally on the side. 

At night I made records, served as president of a local songwriter's organization, built and sold a DX7 Data Cartridge (FourPlay), developed audio engineering chops and synched MIDI to tape, wrote and recorded a lot of songs, recorded a lot of other folks' songs and produced the tracks to go along with them, played weddings and private parties, built a really nice studio then built it again after it burned to the ground in a wildfire, joined a great band that pays for rehearsals, bought another new computer and more mics, and another new computer, learned how to swap CPUs, sold music to libraries, scored a documentary for a friend, got paid... then I quit my day job when they told me it was time to move to Arizona. While all that was happening, I supported a homemaker/vocalist wife and three kids who all graduated from college. Five years after not moving to Arizona, I'm not broke and am in the middle of scoring a documentary, play in a fantastic TV variety show band that does festivals and tours just a bit, plus record a whole bunch of different people in studio 2.0. 

My night job is still music. But now, so is my day job.


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## Saxer (May 12, 2022)

Never had a day job that wasn't music.


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## charlieclouser (May 12, 2022)

Quit my day job in 1988. But that day job was being the sampler+computer guru at the mecca of music technology in that era, Sam Ash on 48th street in Manhattan. Only job I ever had. I worked there almost two years, and haven't worked a day since!


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## Henu (May 13, 2022)

Saxer said:


> Never had a day job that wasn't music.


Tried some 20 years ago, wouldn't recommend.


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## tressie5 (May 13, 2022)

@charlieclouser - what a coinkeedink! My recording studio was just around the corner from your Sam Ash store. It was called The Music Room at 701 7th Ave, right above Sbarro's. And this was around the time you worked at Sam Ash, too.


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## TomislavEP (May 13, 2022)

I never had a so-called 9-5 job; always working strictly part-time. Despite my formal education in law and IT, I have always strived to get by primarily through various music-related activities, including working as a pro and studio musician, playing gigs, teaching, working with children, etc. I'm still to start capitalizing on my work as a composer and producer more seriously. Although I'm often struggling financially, I would always gladly accept this and many other compromises that I must make in the process, in the exchange for the freedom that I have. Also, I never stopped believing that music is the very best of me as a person.


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## makimakimusic (May 13, 2022)

I've been a school bus driver for 7 years. I've quite that job in January of this year to focus on music. The thing is, when you spend some times on a dayjob with regular source of income, it becames very stressful to quite that way of living.
The other thing is that a non-music related job is taking you away from new opportunities in your field on interest. You spend all of your time working on something completely different and the same people are calling you back for music but you don't grow as a music/sound/audio maker.

That being said, that same daytime job allowed me to buy my equipment, land on my first unpaid music jobs without worying about incomes, and to filled up my bank account before juming into that crazy career.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 13, 2022)

I had a few opportunities to quit my day job and focus on music, but I wasn't willing to take the risk. I had a mortgage and a decent non-musical career. When I was young and carefree, I toured for years as a professional drummer, but $$ wasn't a factor....it was the rock and roll lifestyle I loved. At this point in life it would have to be one hell of a musical paycheque for me to leave my solid career. I would need a guaranteed income of over $120K per year, full benefits package and a killer pension plan. That's not going to happen. I just don't like the volatile aspect of being a full time composer, especially in this day and age. However, I have been perfectly content composing and performing music as a healthy secondary career for over 20 years, I feel fortunate. In a few years, I may semi-retire and write music for a "living", as it will be financially feasible.


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## jneebz (May 13, 2022)

Went full time for about 3 years, almost killed me and hated being forced to take every job that came along (and the people associated with some of those jobs). I know that’s required to be “successful” but I wasn’t willing to sell my soul. Very impressed by those who manage this well and maintain their integrity.

Since then have found a nice balance between steady paycheck (and benefits) from 3/4 time day job and doing music for a few solid pubs. Business is growing each year, hope to go 1/2 time at my day job in 5 years and get back to doing more film scores. 

Or….we nuke ourselves to oblivion and I’m singing in the Holy Choir for eternity.


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## Loerpert (May 13, 2022)

I'm not planning to do that. I have considered it many times, but I equally enjoy writing software, which allows for a safe and enjoyable living standard. I do little paid music projects on the side sometimes though, just for fun.


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## Alex Fraser (May 13, 2022)

Good convo.

It was about 15(?) years ago and I was working as a data processor. Had no money but I was lucky enough to have family support and no commitments.

Still doing music now, although I've amassed a mortgage and my own family along the way.

Caveat: I want straight into selling "beats" which financially has always been an "instant return" setup. That helped establish (a) A regular income but (b) Sort of put a dampener on further progression in the media as the focus was elsewhere.

Still doing it now, with the occasional slice of TV and Podcast work. Although in a reverse twist, I'm possibly looking at going the "other way" and leaving it. It's getting harder and the life commitments greater. Everyone has a different tale, right?


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## jneebz (May 13, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> Everyone has a different tale, right?


Indeed. Find what fills your tank against the constant drain of life’s challenges and run with that….family, friends, basket weaving, running a marathon…whatever. The music business can take so much from you for such a small return…


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 13, 2022)

jneebz said:


> Went full time for about 3 years, almost killed me and hated being forced to take every job that came along (and the people associated with some of those jobs). I know that’s required to be “successful” but I wasn’t willing to sell my soul. Very impressed by those who manage this well and maintain their integrity.


I think this is the problem. We all want to be the next John Williams, going into our studios with a nice cup of coffee in the morning and blissfully delivering music for that next Hollywood blockbuster or whatever. Unfortunately, the odds of that happening are probably less than winning the Powerball lottery a few times. I, for one, am not willing to go through what you described ever again (I've been there as well) and it is a great way to jade ones outlook on the music industry and burn out. I applaud those who persevered though, as it obviously pays off for some. Better to to takes those chances earlier in life though, it's a young person's game.


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## muk (May 13, 2022)

Depends on how you define 'doing music'. I've studied musicology, wrote a phd. Now I am working for a classical orchestra. So I've always worked in the world of music.

If you mean composing music, that's been a hobby turned into a side-hustle for me. I have enough tracks in production music libraries to make an educated guess about how much music I'd have to write and how long it would take me to earn a living from it. I've never calculated it in earnest, but it could be doable. But working for a top class orchestra, hearing these fantastic musicians playing live so often, it jades the excitement of using samples all the time quite a bit.


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## Alex Fraser (May 13, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> I think this is the problem. We all want to be the next John Williams, going into our studios with a nice cup of coffee in the morning and blissfully delivering music for that next Hollywood blockbuster or whatever.


I think fairly early on I counted myself out from this as I wasn't prepared to make the sacrifices to get there. And also the fear factor accompanying those big steps, if I'm being totally honest.

It's possible to compose music for much lesser projects and still get satisfaction, especially when composing in an unfamiliar style or where you _finally _get to use your shiny new orchestra library in a cue.



Jeremy Spencer said:


> Better to to takes those chances earlier in life though, it's a young person's game.


Agree with this. Sure, _"You'll make time if you want it badly enough..."_ but there are only 24 hours a day and you've gotta sleep for some of them. Life, family, other commitments all take big chunks out of the clock.


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## EFlexMusic (May 13, 2022)

makimakimusic said:


> I've been a school bus driver for 7 years. I've quite that job in January of this year to focus on music. The thing is, when you spend some times on a dayjob with regular source of income, it becames very stressful to quite that way of living.
> The other thing is that a non-music related job is taking you away from new opportunities in your field on interest. You spend all of your time working on something completely different and the same people are calling you back for music but you don't grow as a music/sound/audio maker.
> 
> That being said, that same daytime job allowed me to buy my equipment, land on my first unpaid music jobs without worying about incomes, and to filled up my bank account before juming into that crazy career.


Yea I agree. I'm currently an Assistant Manager at a UHaul and all the time I spend there takes my energy away to constantly make music, but like you said it's because of that job I've been able to build my home studio.


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## EFlexMusic (May 13, 2022)

Alex Fraser said:


> Good convo.
> 
> It was about 15(?) years ago and I was working as a data processor. Had no money but I was lucky enough to have family support and no commitments.
> 
> ...


I used to sell beats as well. Didn't really make any money on them but, over time just the genre of trap music was worn out to me so I transitioned into making orchestral music/media scores. It also seemed cooler cause it's more complex and spans different genres.


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## MarcusD (May 13, 2022)

Used to work full time (not music related), I've been reducing hours down as things progress. The day job has become the side earner. Taken time to do, but definitely less stressful than dropping everything and blindly rushing into a situation that you could ultimately regret or not enjoy. Made that mistake before.


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## EFlexMusic (May 13, 2022)

MarcusD said:


> Used to work full time (not music related), I've been reducing hours down as things progress. The day job has become the side earner. Taken time to do, but definitely less stressful than dropping everything and blindly rushing into a situation that you could ultimately regret or not enjoy. Made that mistake before.


What kind of projects or musical jobs have you been doing? To supplement the reducing hours at your full time job?


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## muk (May 13, 2022)

Does anybody remember @Carles Piles? He was pretty active here on Vi-C some years ago. Created fantastic mockups. He openly shared his dream to become a fulltime composer, and his steps to get there. At one point he decided to quit his dayjob, and to use his savings to really push to get there. It was a brave move. I think to remember that rctec supported him.

Unfortunately, the start seem to have been rough for Carles, and he vanished from the forums. I don't know how it turned out for him. I only heard a few times from him after that, and he wasn't optimistic then. I hope he is doing ok.

If you are interested in the production music side of things, be aware that you need time to build a solid stream of revenue. A few years at least. If you can do it like @MarcusD and ease into it with a day job that sustains you until you are ready for the jump, that's a safer option.


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## MarcusD (May 13, 2022)

EFlexMusic said:


> What kind of projects or musical jobs have you been doing? To supplement the reducing hours at your full time job?



Since having passive revenue streams I've been able to comfortably lower hours.

The jest of it: Invest x-amount of time into creating 'something' that can sell itself continually. Without any additional investment of time (or much investment). When brainstorming for that 'something' - I always think "anything that saves people time" - must be good starting point.

Two problems I always encountered, when trying to make money off my own back (non-passive income)

1. Getting work consistently..

Unless you can guarantee consistent well payed work, you're fucked. To put it bluntly, lol. Especially If if you're not at any sort of level (like me). If your income is not consistent, it'll make things like getting a mortgage, very difficult.

2. Being able to earn enough.

I've only had a couple OK paying synchs and the rest of my revenue (before working full time) was through gigging, mixing tracks or writing for local artists. Basically scraping the barrel at the cost of my own sanity. It completely ruined music for me, because I had to do so much to earn so little, without actually getting to be THAT creative. Dealing with a lot of horrible people and no financial guarantees.

When I was working full time (not doing music), I also completely loathed it (despite meeting some cool people), mainly because the jobs were not stimulating my creative needs or challenging them. The only positive was having that financial security each month. Passive income has helped me a lot when it comes to doing more of what I like, it gives me time to build things up the way I want and also allows me to network with companies and people. As the saying goes, work smarter not harder.

Everyone's situation, completely unique. Some will find it easier than others (especially if they have a clear plan) depending on circumstances. For me it's a been a long winded process of trial and error.


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## NuNativs (May 13, 2022)

Good thread everyone! One thing I wonder though is the possibility that the people who ARE doing well, don't necessarily have the time and/or inclination to hang out on forums much, except for clouser and hans?


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## Kyle Preston (May 13, 2022)

Mine was a slow and steady transition. Went from a 9-5 office job to a part time live audio gig. Throughout that time, I kept writing albums for music libraries, exclusive and non. Said yes to almost every project, especially video games. After a couple years, I noticed what earned good money and what didn’t — so I stopped doing the things that didn’t (most of which didn’t fulfill me as a person anyway).

Currently, I make a teacher’s salary (American) which isn’t where I’d like it to be yet, but I’m happy and grateful to get to write music pretty much whenever I want. 70% of my income is passive -- music has been full time for me for 3+ years.

When I was working a full time office job, for me, it came down to accepting that there’s really no such thing as a “reliable” 9-5 anymore (generally speaking). Between automation and whatever else is coming in the future, we’re all on shaky ground. So if the ground is shaking everywhere, why not play music?

edit: I'm married but no kids (yet), which gave me some runway to take risks


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 13, 2022)

There's also a difference (to me) between a 9-5 "day job'' and an actual career/profession. I have the latter, which is what not only pays my GAS, but allows me the freedom to pick and choose the musical gigs I take on. It took years to build that music network, but it's reliable and I will never have to wonder about dilemma's that @MarcusD mentioned above.


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## Kyle Preston (May 13, 2022)

For sure! Reliability is a great foundation for creativity. And constant financial anxiety, is, at least for me, a creative death sentence. 

Passive music income is how I personally chose to solve that problem. Some choose (or stick with) their careers to solve that problem. If it makes a fulfilling life of music possible, all the better. 

Get that bread son!


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## charlieclouser (May 13, 2022)

tressie5 said:


> @charlieclouser - what a coinkeedink! My recording studio was just around the corner from your Sam Ash store. It was called The Music Room at 701 7th Ave, right above Sbarro's. And this was around the time you worked at Sam Ash, too.


Small world, eh? Even though it was, in theory, a grinding retail job, I actually loved it. I worked there with my roommate, college buddy, and music collaborator John Bechdel, who is now the keyboardist in Ministry. He was the "sampler guy" and I was the "computer guy", and whenever a new toy came out, Richie Ash would send the first one home with us with instructions to, "smoke a ton of weed, stay up all night, learn this thing inside and out, so that by tomorrow morning I have the only two experts on the Emax on 48th street." Will do, boss.

In those pre-internet days, if you wanted to see / learn about / buy the hot new synth or sampler, 48th st. was the mecca of music tech, and it was a constant battle between Manny's and Sam Ash to see who would get the first SP-12 on the block or whatever. Plus, you remember, with all the studios, the Brill Building, etc. it felt like standing at the center of the universe. Right Track was right on the block, Unique / MIDI City around the corner... good times. It's all gone now though.

So many of the people I worked with there have gone on to long careers in M.I., so that now when I go to a NAMM show it's like a high school reunion! The store manager from that era became VP at Apogee, and other floor employees wound up at Digidesign, Ensoniq, Korg, Yamaha, etc.

Even though working at Sam Ash was not exactly glamorous, like helping old ladies pick out a keyboard for their grandson to take piano lessons on or whatever, at least I was surrounded by the tech that I was interested in. And when your job consists of "become an expert on this new sampler in one night" then you develop skills for reading every page of the manual, trying out every single feature, and scrolling to the last screen in the options menu. And that skill has served me well over the years. I fear no gear!

And, hell, working there is what led to all the opportunities that came later. I had a customer who'd come over twice a year from Australia to buy bits and pieces, and since we were both into art rock like Roxy Music and Eno, we hit it off, and I'd hook him up with deals and demo disks for software, etc. After a couple of years he moved to NYC to score a tv series, and he hired me away from the store to program on that gig. He wound up bringing me with him to LA the next year to score more stuff, and that's where I reunited with an old high school band mate who was engineering for songwriters, and he brought me in to program drums for them, which kept the lights on. (I just hung out with him last week, forty years on!) Once I was in LA I also reunited with some old college friends who were producing music videos, and they brought me in to do sound design on a video for NIN, and I got sucked into Reznor's world for nearly a decade.

So ya never know what a "day job" is going to lead to.


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## KeyboardThis (May 13, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> There's also a difference (to me) between a 9-5 "day job'' and an actual career/profession.


This is very true. When I was a teenager, I didn't really care what job I had: I wanted to work it, leave, and then at home do whatever I wanted. Little did I know that the boundaries issues I was having with composition and production vs. schoolwork would reverse and intensify with a _profession._

I normally just lurk, but in the past I've also worked as an assistant manager at a retail place, then through three levels of IT technicians, two middle-management spots, and finally a CTO role at 33. Does it fund GAS? Oh, you betcha. I don't even blink at most purchases.

There was a time even in my IT career that I had definite work/home boundaries. Vacation days were really vacation days. Off the clock was exactly that. But I wasn't in a great place... psychologically (for lack of a word, really the problem was quite pragmatic). I stressed out during time I blocked for "creative" stuff. I jumped on the prepper wagon, auditioning and categorizing presets, breaking down the different pieces of production apart so I could do just mixing at times, and just part comping another. And these are all good, valuable things but...

It created even MORE pressure because now I'd "invested" all this time in the prep and the music just wasn't coming to me the way I wanted it to. This compounded my underlying problem (a crippling fear of waste) and switched me into pursuing IT/career stuff. I enjoy teaching, so when I first got my own team of directs, I went full-bore onto "all the management things" (staff dev, scrum, project mgt, etc.). And that was fun and rewarding. No music.

Fast-forward 8 years, and all the appeal of prep and auditioning of backlogged instruments and libraries is certainly there, but different this time. I don't feel like I have to prep to justify my investment or existence. In the little time I have, I often just noodle and end up getting whole songs having done no prep or catalogging at all. I think I got 3 patches into Photosynthesis and had so much fun I never went back to listen to the rest (I'm a hobbyist/rompler-type so I'm allowed such indulgences).

I don't have that pressure of _"But I have to audition every last sample because what if that LAST patch is the thing that's going to make the song that will be my personal cover story and catch me up on all the wasted time. _Thing is, I'm not sure how I got rid of it. Perhaps I didn't get rid of it at all: The sheer scarcity of free time made it precious but I don't feel like I "owe" myself or anyone anything for what does or doesn't come out of those times. For some reason that was a HUGE deal to me as young adult struggling with self-worth.

I once thought switching to music full-time would force the issue and at that point the stakes would be so high I'd make music even when I wasn't "motivated." This kind of thinking is extremely dysfunctional and although music had to take a back seat for awhile - actually it had to exit the vehicle almost completely; it's now back in the back seat - It would have been catastrophic had I tried to force it to be "the thing" thinking it would make me more creative/productive. I am glad I did not. Speaking of, imho "creativity" and "productivity" are largely toxic buzzwords in the personal development hustler scene. When you're a hobbyist or part-time or transitioning or whatever, you're really prone to such complexes.

Pros have a job to do and (again imho) seem to incorporate tactical workflow advice better than someone who has their identity tied up in the monetary value of the work - not the work itself. It took getting tied up in the value of IT work and hearing people drone about "what about this or that productivity/project management solution, app, site etc." to realize: They clearly don't have 81 projects open and all manner of stakeholders breathing fire down their neck. Those people don't need motivation and the project management system just has to be there w/appropriate caretakers. I did this with music. The indie pros at the old TweakHeads/StudioCentral forums couldn't relate. Now I understand why.

TLDR: I spent a lot of time in denial that motivation can't be coerced or manipulated in the way a software program or an employee can. As the song goes, "You can travel the world but you can't run away from the person you are in your heart." And if you are someone who in your heart needs the money to feel personally valuable, if and when you struggle as a full-time musician, it will really hurt. I feel like I thankfully curved around the edge of the volcano without falling in, but I still got burnt.


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## StevenMcDonald (May 13, 2022)

It was at the beginning of 2018 for me. My threshold was when my quarterly royalties stayed at a high enough amount for me to live on for a couple of quarters in a row, which was about $7k per quarter, or $28k per year. I live in Oklahoma, so costs aren't super high out here. My child was 6 months old then, and my wife was also working.


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## Bighill (May 14, 2022)

I´m 62 and never had a day job.


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## Jeremy Spencer (May 14, 2022)

Bighill said:


> I´m 62 and never had a day job.


How did you earn a living?


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## jneebz (May 14, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> How did you earn a living?


Night job.


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## Per Boysen (May 14, 2022)

EFlexMusic said:


> What kinds of jobs do you do to make the money you need to live?


Many different kinds. After having been hired as a full-time tour project guitarist at an early age I decided to register a one-man company in order to be able to work in many fields as a freelancer (invoicing clients and planning my own work schedule, and planning taxes). For decades I kept bouncing between hands-on music work (performing, composing, producing recordings) and not-hands-on-but-music-related jobs. Whenever there was a hit or a major record deal, I did music full-time for a while. Otherwise, I wrote and edited musician magazines, gave private lessons, played single gigs, worked as a hired studio musician, and wrote books together with a co-author on "How To Make a Living in Music" (in Swedish, where I'm native) and that book project rendered a lot of guest lecturer gigs, as a speaker at music universities. When the internet killed the paper magazines I had been working with I took three years to mainly do busking as a street musician playing the Chapman Stick and selling my CDs hand-to-hand (I realized that was the only way to intensify and up my chops, as musicians today don't get hired on long-time contracts at public venues, as the situation once was for earlier generations of players). Then I got into production music, which I still do to some deal, and started getting sporadic paid indoor venue solo concerts with the Stick (still doing that). For the last three years, I have been teaching the local language (Swedish) by video conferencing to foreign corporate professionals that have been head-hunted to work here with Swedish companies. So far that's the best side-job I have had outside music, it has allowed me to finally get top-quality soprano and tenor saxes, awesome guitars, and a spectacular aluminum Chapman Stick to record and perform with


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## HCMarkus (May 15, 2022)

As is clear from reading this thread, we are a creative bunch of people who somehow always find interesting ways to make it in this world. 

It is definitely not a one size fits all matter, this life of ours.


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## ALittleNightMusic (May 15, 2022)

When I was a bit younger and doing more pop music, I had this notion that I should start making money from music so that eventually I could make it a "career". I was sending songs to publishers and then I started having singers to book me for writing and production sessions for a fee. I hated it. When you start doing that for money, that's what drives your decisions and you have to accept working with people you may not want to work with, for the money (at least in the beginning). And there's a lot of delusional people out there in terms of their abilities (or lack thereof). It robbed all the fun out of it for me. But when I was doing it for free, I could work with anybody I wanted to - and it also enabled me to work with a ton of really talented, similarly minded people that maybe weren't able to pay a session fee.

So now I approach it in a different way - how can I not worry about money so I can make music for the joy of making music, not because I need it to pay the bills. And thanks to being in a lucrative profession as "the day job" (that music would never be able to supplant from an income standpoint in any case unless I was at like the HZ salary level), I will likely be able to dedicate half my life to music "full time" soon. I'm not chasing credits (as if those validate your music). Instead I'm chasing the freedom to write and evolve my music without the stress and potential absence of passion that can come with it being the "bread winner".


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## ed buller (May 15, 2022)

I left the London Synthesizer center in jan 82. Joined the Psychedelic Furs three months later. Haven't had a real job since



best

e


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## robgb (May 15, 2022)

I still have a day job—writing books—and don't intend to quit. Music for me is a bit of a side hustle (although I was a composer and a musician before I became a writer). That said, writing books is a similar creative profession and I didn't quit my then day job to concentrate on full time writing until I was banking $100k a year from the writing alone. That felt like a good yearly amount to allow me to live comfortably on my writing. If I were concentrating on music only, I'd use the same math.


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## dexterjettser (May 15, 2022)

Worked a few office jobs. Lots of temp work. Then got into sales for a bit and then back to customer service and delivering food. One day I woke up with 5 times the amount of money I ever made through my day job and the rest is history. I’m definitely one of the lucky ones though

Should add. It took me about 6 years of composing to get to this point.


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## JohnG (May 15, 2022)

This topic comes up in different ways, and it always makes me squirm a little.

Sometimes it feels as though there's a latent insinuation that you're not a "real" musician if you don't write full time, that there's something illegitimate or invalid about music written by someone who's not pursuing music exclusively.

But of course that's a muddle too. What does "full time" even mean? I do some conducting, some orchestrating, some performing. Some people here spend a lot more time on those kinds of things -- and teaching -- than they do on composing, but of course I don't think that undermines their work.

*Where it Comes From*

Besides, for me the experience of life drives my writing. My volunteer work, for example, brings me into contact with people who are radically different than those with whom we work as professionals: the mentally ill, unhoused people, the very poor. Apart from volunteering, my family and friends, their struggles, deaths and births, engagements and other life events -- all that contributes, and contributes a lot more than studying arcane musical topics.

*It's Not Always Obvious*

I think for a lot of people it's kind of obvious when to quit, because something happens (as with @ed buller ) that really changes the trajectory. If someone offers you good-paying music work that takes up too much time to keep the day job, that might be obvious too.

For others, maybe with more commitments, it's a lot woolier. Hesitancy is bound to arise if you have aging and helpless parents or some other family member who has significant challenges; if you have little children and a spouse who doesn't (or can't) work.

It also can be that one's music, or artistic vision, is simply not mainstream enough to attract a mass audience. It's difficult if you want to do something really unusual to be sure there's enough appetite for it. And some people are just too shy to sell themselves; IDK how anyone can overcome that in an age of "look at ME" everywhere.

So, those are my thoughts. I love music and I am lucky enough to do it all the time but I would never sacrifice the stability of family for anything -- for me, that's number one.


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## El Buhdai (May 16, 2022)

NuNativs said:


> Good thread everyone! One thing I wonder though is the possibility that the people who ARE doing well, don't necessarily have the time and/or inclination to hang out on forums much, except for clouser and hans?


Or in my case they're grinding every day to build something and become that high-profile person. I used to be a fairly active participant in the Infinite Brass/Woodwinds thread, but nowadays I have a full-time job, music clients, AND a part time job. I generally don't have much time to pop up and scroll through the forums, but I'm on here now cause of insomnia lol.


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## Daryl (May 16, 2022)

The last time I had a job that wasn't related to music was when, as a teenager, I worked at the benefits office for a summer job. For me, anyone wanting to get into composing should try to make themselves employable, so that they don't need an unrelated job. There are many skills that are useful to learn, and if anyone is interested, I can outline some of them.

Suffice it to say that I have about 6 or 7 "jobs" that I do regularly, all music related. In fact the only thing that I do that isn't music related is the admin for running labels. I have to admit that I don't really like that bit..!


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## richiebee (May 16, 2022)

EFlexMusic said:


> I am curious about at what point have many composers actually stopped working a 9 to 5 because their music was helping them live. Like at what point did you say "I am finally doing music full time." What kinds of jobs do you do to make the money you need to live?


I worked in music for 17 years, though my day job was in production, and included non-musical elements (video conferencing, lighting, theatre production). I did composition on the side, but although I did a bit in MIDI programming, arrangement and production, I never really made much money or inroads into it - enough to maintain the small studio, and that was about it. I'm not a sales person, so getting work was incredibly hard, and to top it off, I wouldn't call myself talented either as a musician (I played trumpet semi pro, but I was never especially good) or as a composer (I have some theory background and a diploma in film composition). Certainly there are lots of better ones in the city I live in, and its not really a huge market. I left music completely almost 5 years ago, to start work as a professional photographer, and have only recently gone back to music as a relaxing pastime. I am working on two albums (one of my stuff, one of a friends for whom I'm doing all the production work with their bare bones compositions). Its fun, but I wouldn't want to be trying to make a living at it. I am a university photographer, and don't need to sell my services. People come to me. For me, selling anything would be the hardest thing I could do.


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## asherpope (May 16, 2022)

I quit my casual day job at the end of 2019 with the goal of composing full time. I had earned around $60k AUD from custom music and library music in the previous year. From 2020 to mid 2021 I did relatively ok, but the stress of not having a steady paycheck got too much. Not only that, but a lot of the custom scoring gigs dried up and I realised I was...bored. Now I manage a small warehouse a few days a week, and kind of enjoy it. I wish I had enough music work to sustain me comfortably but at 43 with two kids, limited connections, questionable talent and terrible networking skills I don't think it's going to happen.


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## Bighill (May 18, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> How did you earn a living?


First, I was a bass player, but I was always interested in writing and arranging music. After studying arranging and jazz composition at Berklee, (they didn´t have a film scoring program in the eighties,) I returned to my home country, Norway, and slowly built a reputation as an arranger. Then I started doing a lot of commercials, and the two last decades I have mostly scored films ad tv shows.


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## Sopris (May 20, 2022)

For me music has never been able to pay my bills as a full time gig. I've had some great projects come in the last few years that have definitely paid my bills for months at a time but overall the work has been inconsistent, I think thats a big part of the struggle of it all is the inconsistency and not knowing where your next job is gonna come from. Honestly being a film composer is very much like being an actor. The vast majority of actors you see on TV all have other forms of income to supplement the lulls in between jobs. You could be a series regular on a TV show and then not work for the next 2 years, that just continues to blow my mind.

I think the best thing you can do is find something you love to do part time that affords you time to do music. I just moved to Vermont last month after a 6 year stint in LA, when the pandemic hit I luckily had a gig as a private chef for someone and that lasted for 2 years, 3-4 dinners a week I would go to his house and cook him dinner and that paid my bills, absolutely BLESSED to have found that job. I'm not actively pursuing composing like I was the last few years in LA but music jobs still come in at random times for me because of relationships I've built over the years. I've actually spent the last year creating a natural perfume business, starting very small and selling on Etsy and so far we've gotten a pretty good response and its another art form for me, very musical as well and a lot crosses over from music.

This is definitely a marathon, cliche but true.


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## tressie5 (May 20, 2022)

I'd been an on again/off again nurse for 30 years. During the times I was off, I tried my best to concentrate on music. When that didn't pan out, back to nursing again.

There was one time, however, that for a year and a half, I worked solidly as a recording engineer. From mornings to way past midnight, seven days a week (I lived in the studio), I was engineering. I got so burned out that I told my friend I was going for a soda, even asked him if he wanted anything. He said yes. When I got outside, I walked straight to the bus terminal, caught a bus to another state and stayed there for three days. It was intense. Learned a lot, though. Now I'm back. Hope it's not too late.


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## giwro (May 21, 2022)

I made my living in music for 31 years… I was a full-time church musician. Lost that career last year, and no one wanted to hire a dude pushing 60 to do it here in my area - the competition is fierce, I don’t have the right pedigree educationally, and there’s a real belief in many of those organizations that anyone out of their 30s is unable to successfully lead a band for contemporary worship. Yes, I can and do and have done the traditional side my whole career, too - but then that limits the salary or if you look for full-time, there’s the competition again. 

Composing and arranging has always been a part of my life as an adult - it’s just always been something I’ve done (often in support of my groups at my church jobs). My small publishing cooperative sells the organ stuff I write and some of a few friends.

I’m doing AV tech and production for a large church now… so I don’t get to use the musical skills much anymore. I do still try to keep the orchestration and composing chops up, but it’s definitely less now. I’d love to find a way to support myself doing musical stuff (and be my own boss). Best chance for that for me is the sample business - I do make a nice little extra selling samples for Hauptwerk.

I think though the last year I’ve realized something… for awhile I felt pretty wrecked at leaving a career I loved, but I don’t miss the stress and politics, nor the long hours. I felt diminished… “I used to be a church musician”…

Well…

I still am. One doesn’t stop being a musician simply because one isn’t actively employed at it for a season…

The challenge now is, I took a significant salary cut, so now my sample business is a “must-do”. I work all day, then I come home eat dinner and edit samples. My free time is significantly less than it used to be - any time I’m not doing sample work there are chores, and I do like being married - so I want to spend some time with my lovely wife, too. I don’t get paid to make music at the day job, so I no longer get much practice time.

But… for all the challenges… I’d say I’m much happier. And, I know this is just for a season - I can retire in about 7 years… and maybe then I’ll shift more time to what I want to do.


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