# Help! I can’t make myself use loops!



## Brian2112 (Mar 1, 2019)

Please don’t think I am being judgmental. I have absolutely no right to be. Many if not most professional musicians use loops these days and there is an art to assembling them into an original and artistically legitimate work. 

I was just emailed a rather funny add from Native Instruments making fun of people who don’t use loops. I wasn’t offended, I thought it was hilarious.

I am just speaking for myself here. I can’t make myself use loops unless I made them myself. This is time consuming and puts me at a great disadvantage. Whenever I buy a DAW I delete all the loop content. I have tons of “free loop” packs that I have never downloaded. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had fun playing with them and occasionally they have inspired a few ideas. But I just can’t make myself use them in my compositions. I have used DAMAGE and other orchestral percussion loops with the intention of playing parts on my EDrums but sometimes never get around to it (I’m a drummer so ironically I spend less time on drums and percussion than anything else except piano of course).

I guess I just need someone to tell me it’s ok, that it doesn’t diminish my work and that perfectly original and good compositions can be made by creatively using loops. I guess I know this already but could use re-enforcement. Does anyone else have reluctance to use loops?

Thank you friends. I hope I haven’t offended anyone.


----------



## PaulBrimstone (Mar 1, 2019)

Consider yourself reinforced. +1


----------



## NekujaK (Mar 1, 2019)

i've always avoided using loops, but recently started to find them useful in certain situations, namely, if I'm under extreme time pressure to complete a project, or if I'm unable to adequately play a part and can't find someone who can.

That said, I would never assemble an entire composition out of loops - not for any creative, philosophical, or ethical reasons, mind you, but simply because I find the process to be mind-numbingly BORING and thoroughly unsatisfying. Every time I've tried, I quickly lose interest and go do something else.

On the other hand, I have a friend who has no musical training or knowledge of theory, but his head is full of musical ideas and thanks to loops, he's been able to cobble together some pretty amazing tracks. In his case, loops have clearly empowered him to express his musical creativity.

Ultimately, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with using loops, and there's also nothing wrong with not using them. If they fit into your creative workflow, more power to you, and if you avoid them like the plague, well that's okay too!


----------



## dzilizzi (Mar 1, 2019)

I try to use loops, but they never seem to fit with what I'm doing. Or I'll find one I really like but I can't match it with other loops so it's not boring and still fits with the song. 

I'm not counting VSTI's that play a phrase, because it is usually easy to switch up the phrases and have them still go together. 

I did have to use loops for school projects (part of assignment requirements) I'd end up with a drum or percussion loop most of the time.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 1, 2019)

I can't user them either. I find them boring and not worth the hassle, and usually I cant't find the place for them. I don't think it's anything to be concerned about. Loops only work if your music is dead-set in a certain time signature, tempo and unchanging uniform structure. Further, the more interesting the actual arrangement and musical elements are, the less a pre-manufactured loop will fit into it.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Mar 1, 2019)

I use loops all if the time.

If you have some looos that you don’t want, send them my way!

Check out this beat I did with loops:


----------



## MisteR (Mar 1, 2019)




----------



## Mike Fox (Mar 1, 2019)

I NEVER understood loops, (unless you lack the ability to compose music yourself )

I've tried using loops before, and the biggest problem is that I could never take any pride in doing so, because I knew that I didn't write it.


----------



## gsilbers (Mar 1, 2019)

im guessing many traditinal orchestral composer might see loops as some kinda of garageband composers. laying down a drum loop, over that a bass loop and so on. or that sort of mentality. 
using loops is key to making your hyrbid scores sound more authentic, real and cool. but you have to learn how to process them and learn how to use loops to enhance your compositions. 
here are a few ways
https://www.musicradar.com/how-to/9-ways-to-customise-loops-and-make-them-your-own
https://blog.discmakers.com/2017/08/producing-music-with-loops/
https://www.dittomusic.com/blog/how-to-use-loops-samples-creatively-in-your-tracks


----------



## jbuhler (Mar 1, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> I NEVER understood loops, unless you lack the ability to compose music yourself?
> 
> I've tried using loops before, and the biggest problem is that I could never take any pride in doing so, because I knew that I didn't write it.


Have you ever written a stock accompaniment figure (like a march, alberti bass, Trommelbass figures, waltz, or a thousand other dance forms)? A standard drum pattern? Arpeggiator sequence? Those are all proto loops.


----------



## chillbot (Mar 1, 2019)

I hate when I get pulled into this conversation... must resist... ugh... ok.
I use loops all the time. I may literally own the entire Big Fish Audio library, which is considerable. There are so many misconceptions about loops, where to start...

First we have to separate how some people use loops and how most people think loops are used, which is the "hold down one key on the piano" method. Or the "buy a construction kit" method. Yes, this is lame and I think we can all agree on that. This is not using loops in the proper sense though.

A "sample", as in a sampled instrument that we all use is essentially one note. There are hundreds of pages of threads about note attacks and releases and legatos and connections between these notes. A "loop" is more than one note, which, first off, solves this problem. Yes often it is an entire melodic phrase. No you do not need to use the entire phrase or use any part of the melody in the phrase in your composing. Our job as composers/producers is to use every possible tool that we have at our disposal to make the end product sound as good as possible. If that's a sampled instrument, great, if it's something you pick up a mic and record yourself, great, if it's an old Roland Juno synth, great, if it's a loop, great. It's just another tool.

Two things that are misunderstood about loops:

1) You have to be really really really f-ing good at editing audio to use loops. It's a skill that takes many many years to learn. And Melodyne, so much Melodyne. And be really good at pitch-shifting and time-stretching, it's not just pushing buttons on a plugin you have to know all the principles behind every instrument and what each instrument can and can't do. And it's a very creative process in a lot of ways. "I have X and I need it to be Y how can I make this happen". Sometimes you have to find a way to turn X into Z first and then into Y. OK I'm getting too abstract, but it is actually fun and can be satisfying.

2) Using loops properly is HARD and super time-consuming. People have the idea that you hold down a finger on a keyboard and that somehow you're cheating or not actually "writing". Here's the one thing I wish people could understand: we don't use loops because they are easy... "easy" would be playing the line in on a sampled instrument... we use loops because THEY MAKE THE END PRODUCT SOUND BETTER.

Lastly, you have to have a lot of loops at your disposal. If you have one library it's only going to do a couple of things. But if you have a thousand libraries that cover every instrument and virtually every key and tempo, you can see the difference it would make.


----------



## Wally Garten (Mar 1, 2019)

Brian2112 said:


> I guess I just need someone to tell me it’s ok, that it doesn’t diminish my work and that perfectly original and good compositions can be made by creatively using loops.



Right -- both things are definitely true. You don't need loops, and people can make interesting and original work using loops. It's all a matter of preference and workflow.

I used loops a lot when I started out, just learning to arrange chunks of music into something resembling a song. (Put me in the camp of "garageband composers" @gsilbers mentioned. ) As I learned more about music, I started to feel like I needed to write or make everything myself in order for it to be mine. But, in the words of Marsellus Wallace, "That's pride, fucking with you." So I've come back around; I'm happy to use an Apple Loop or sampled phrase if it works for what I'm doing. I may cut it up or put some effects on it... but I might not, too. Really just depends. The bigger problem, as @dzilizzi says, is finding loops that actually fit what I'm doing. But at that point I look at it kind of like crate-digging; you have to do a lot of sifting to find the right thing. Sometimes that's worth it; often, it's not. Really, as others have said, it's up to you.


----------



## YaniDee (Mar 1, 2019)

Look at it this way..you can hire a studio, pay a musician give him (her) the chords and structure and expect them to "come up with something". You can be specific, general, or let them improvise. In the end they provide a part that adds something to your piece. You're still the composer! That's how I see loops..


----------



## chillbot (Mar 1, 2019)

chillbot said:


> You have to be really really really f-ing good at editing audio to use loops.


Oh another misconception about loops that adds to the "hold down one key on the piano" image:

I've never once used a loop in kontakt. I purchase all my loops in wav format to save time, but when I do have a loop in kontakt I immediately render it as audio. If you're trying to use loops in kontakt or another sampler you should probably reconsider. In addition, the tempo sync function in kontakt will never be as good as if you manually do it yourself. Again... it ain't easy and it takes a lot of time.


----------



## jmauz (Mar 1, 2019)

I suck at guitar but a lot of my clients have pegged me as the 'organic instruments guy' so I get hired to write tracks featuring guitar ALL THE FREAKIN' TIME. 

It's a good problem to have. 

I have three options:
1. Hire a guitarist ($$)
2. Play it myself (frustration)
3. Use loops (editing)

When starting a project I consider how much my budget is (if I even have one), how much time I have, and how good my fingers are feeling that day. Some bizarre formulaic computation occurs in my subconscious, I choose from the options listed above and then I get to work. 

If the part is at all complicated I almost always start with option #3. I actually really dig using loops as it gets the creative juices flowing. It also keeps my editing chops sharp!


----------



## chillbot (Mar 1, 2019)

jmauz said:


> I have three options:
> 1. Hire a guitarist ($$)
> 2. Play it myself (frustration)
> 3. Use loops (editing)
> ...


Wow deja vu. This is me exactly.

Another factor that comes into play is that hiring a guitarist, which would seem to be the most ideal option, and I do quite often, has 3 issues:
1) The cost that jmauz mentioned.
2) The amount of editing you still need to do anyway, depending on the skill of the player, but in most cases is still a fair amount.
3) The fact that the loops may have been recorded in much better quality with better equipment and a better engineer. Stuff like harmonica or an ethnic flute or vocals aren't as much of an issue, but I find it particularly hard to get a killer acoustic guitar tone with my setup, whereas it's already right there for me with loops.


----------



## dariusofwest (Mar 1, 2019)

These days, I tend to use loops more as extra layers when putting together drum parts for electronic type tracks (usually play in a kick, snare, hats pattern and add some loops on top- which then get tossed through a filter and or glitch fx). Otherwise, I tend not to use any loops besides electronic percussion parts.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Mar 1, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> I NEVER understood loops, unless you lack the ability to compose music yourself?
> 
> I've tried using loops before, and the biggest problem is that I could never take any pride in doing so, because I knew that I didn't write it.



See, that’s your issue. You work too hard. You have to learn how to coast. Pride in your work is holding you back. 

Writing music is 10% inspiration and 90% duplication, imitation, and speculation.

Don’t worry. I will show you the way.


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 1, 2019)

Brian2112 said:


> I can’t make myself use loops unless I made them myself. This is time consuming and puts me at a great disadvantage.



If my ultimate goal were to create the best music possible regardless of means, or if my job were to create music as quickly as possible, then I would defer to using loops. But neither of these has ever been my goal or job. I'm a traditional recording artist who produces and releases albums without time restraints, and as such, my conscience will not allow me to use construction kits or loops. I have to create what I release. If I hear something I like in a loop or a construction kit demo, I take the time to recreate something similar to it from scratch.

I make exceptions for:

MIDI patterns of single instruments, such as banjo rolls and drum grooves. I could recreate the patterns verbatim and end up with the same exact result, so instead I'll import the pattern just to save time. Even then, I rarely do this, and when I do I always make creative edits.

Short recorded phrases of single instruments/sections, such as string runs or choir arc phrases, since the quality is so much better than relying on, for example, a library's scripted legato.
Using loops would improve the quality of my product, but what's more important to me than the quality of my product is how I achieved it. One of my favorite compliments ever received was for an album I created a few years ago -- a friend naturally assumed I used loops and kits to create it. When I corrected him by saying I did it all with virtual instruments over 370 hours, he just stood there with a dumbfounded look on his face. To me, that was priceless.

I can afford to be anti-loop, but if music creation and sales were my primary source of income, I'd be open to using loops.


----------



## bryla (Mar 1, 2019)

I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then though using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I'm not sure where to go from here. I haven't made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.


----------



## Mike Fox (Mar 1, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> See, that’s your issue. You work too hard. You have to learn how to coast. Pride in your work is holding you back.
> 
> Writing music is 10% inspiration and 90% duplication, imitation, and speculation.
> 
> Don’t worry. I will show you the way.


Please, please show me how to take credit for someone else's work, and not feel guilty by doing so. That would save me so much time!


----------



## Dex (Mar 1, 2019)

We’re talking about audio loops here, not midi loops, right? I use the occasional midi loop. While I would be open to using audio loops, I feel like I’d have a hard time fitting a bunch of different prerecorded parts into something that sounds like a single performance.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Mar 1, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> Please, please show me how to take credit for someone else's work, and not feel guilty by doing so. That would save me so much time!



First, you have to come to the understanding that guilt is a bad thing. Never feel bad for taking action. You only regret the moves that you do not make. As I have said a million times before: Move fast and break things.

Second, you are not taking credit for other people’s work. You are simply “borrowing” from others. They are “sharing” with you. So as long as you are willing to let others share with you, you are a good man.

Third, realize that even when you use loops and samples, 95% of the world can’t tell the difference and doesn’t care. The other 5% that have a problem with it are simply haters. So you use the hate as fuel to “create”.

I have given you the keys. Open the door and behold the glory that awaits you, my son!


----------



## Mike Fox (Mar 1, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> First, you have to come to the understanding that guilt is a bad thing. Never feel bad for taking action. You only regret the moves that you do not make. As I have said a million times before: Move fast and break things.
> 
> Second, you are not taking credit for other people’s work. You are simply “borrowing” from others. They are “sharing” with you. So as long as you are willing to let others share with you, you are a good man.
> 
> ...


----------



## dzilizzi (Mar 1, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Oh another misconception about loops that adds to the "hold down one key on the piano" image:
> 
> I've never once used a loop in kontakt. I purchase all my loops in wav format to save time, but when I do have a loop in kontakt I immediately render it as audio. If you're trying to use loops in kontakt or another sampler you should probably reconsider. In addition, the tempo sync function in kontakt will never be as good as if you manually do it yourself. Again... it ain't easy and it takes a lot of time.


Yes, Rex loops or Acid/Apple loops are so much easier to work with. Especially when you have tools like variaudio available to you. 

I keep saying I need to organize my loop library. But I don't really know the best way to do it. Because I will find a loop that is perfect and inspires a song, and then spend hours trying to find something that works with it and being unsuccessful. And even loops that are packaged together don't always work together if you don't have the same end vision as the loop pack maker. 

But maybe adding a short riff would be all you need. Then a loop works great.


----------



## Marko Zirkovich (Mar 1, 2019)

dzilizzi said:


> I keep saying I need to organize my loop library. But I don't really know the best way to do it.



Check out the free Loopcloud software from Loopmasters: https://www.loopcloud.net/

Point it to your loop folders and let the software automatically tag all your loops. It's not perfect, but better than tagging thousands of loops manually.  You can then filter by genre, instrument, tempo, key, etc. to find the loop(s) that fit your required criteria. Connect the software via the VST plugin to your DAW and preview the loops in the correct tempo and key while working on your tracks. It definitely helps avoiding that tedious, hours-long search process you've described.


----------



## Living Fossil (Mar 1, 2019)

bryla said:


> I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then though using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I'm not sure where to go from here. I haven't made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.



Why didn't you try beatboxing? It's also a lot of work, but you don't have to feed goats.


----------



## elpedro (Mar 1, 2019)

Brian2112 said:


> Please don’t think I am being judgmental. I have absolutely no right to be. Many if not most professional musicians use loops these days and there is an art to assembling them into an original and artistically legitimate work.
> 
> I was just emailed a rather funny add from Native Instruments making fun of people who don’t use loops. I wasn’t offended, I thought it was hilarious.
> 
> ...


I felt the same way, but now I have come to see loops as the session musicians I wish I had in the studio


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 1, 2019)

bryla said:


> I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then though using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I'm not sure where to go from here. I haven't made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all.



What a complete failure. Your studio isn't even vegan.


----------



## dzilizzi (Mar 1, 2019)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> Check out the free Loopcloud software from Loopmasters: https://www.loopcloud.net/
> 
> Point it to your loop folders and let the software automatically tag all your loops. It's not perfect, but better than tagging thousands of loops manually.  You can then filter by genre, instrument, tempo, key, etc. to find the loop(s) that fit your required criteria. Connect the software via the VST plugin to your DAW and preview the loops in the correct tempo and key while working on your tracks. It definitely helps avoiding that tedious, hours-long search process you've described.


I remember reading about that and I was going to try it out, but of course I forgot when I was actually in my studio. Thanks!


----------



## YaniDee (Mar 1, 2019)

I expressed my views earlier in the topic. However the one thing that concerns me about using loops, is that even though they're paid for, and the license terms say "royalty free commercial use" (when combined with other parts), I still feel that an infringement issue may arise that can screw you..Obviously I'm not part of the "mashup" generation.


----------



## JEPA (Mar 1, 2019)

early when i was young i was fascinated from loops technology. I was using Sonic Foundry's Acid and Sound Forge to make my loops then, learning from loops libraries. I have learned so much, that i know how to make a good loop (a perfect loop) and a combination of them that work as an ensemble. I was programming my own instruments so that not only percussion loops where there, but wind, voice, etc. instruments could i loop very well (for sampling also). Today i have and i collect TONS of loops (free loops), but i never use 1 of them... crazy... I only have them as a source of inspiration. Is like the news on the papers, i want to stay informed what are people doing actually. I build my own loops if i need them (mostly not - 1%).


----------



## Zero&One (Mar 1, 2019)

I remember reading Rihanna's song "Umbrella" used GarageBand's Vintage Funk Kit 03 sample for 90% of the song. Sold a few copies if I remember.
No guilt was shown on that pay day I bet!


----------



## Thomas Kallweit (Mar 1, 2019)

Marko Zirkovich said:


> Check out the free Loopcloud software from Loopmasters: https://www.loopcloud.net/
> 
> Point it to your loop folders and let the software automatically tag all your loops. It's not perfect, but better than tagging thousands of loops manually.  You can then filter by genre, instrument, tempo, key, etc. to find the loop(s) that fit your required criteria. Connect the software via the VST plugin to your DAW and preview the loops in the correct tempo and key while working on your tracks. It definitely helps avoiding that tedious, hours-long search process you've described.



Yeah, discovered Loopcloud recently too and it's really cool and easy to use and it works flawless so far. Everything what you described! Very pleasant is that it is played and synced to the project in the DAW and drag and drop also works. 

Plus you can preview sounds before you download for free or buy.
The next version will bring up some sample editing features and chopping, I guess then you can cut up the parts of the meat you want to have before transfering those chops to your plate. 
https://www.musicradar.com/news/namm-2019-loopcloud-4-brings-sample-editing-to-the-fore


----------



## Calabraccio (Mar 1, 2019)

I think it really depends on what sort of music you're writing. Over the years I've found some nifty stuff in older sample libraries (Zero-G's really old stuff) that covered a breadth of drum sounds and phrases that multisampled libraries/my own sound design capabilities couldn't cover. And using those sounds -straight-, rather than tastefully, is painfully obvious. It takes a bit of mettle to use some of that stuff.

I find "construction kit" libraries utterly useless, on the other hand (like what Ueberschall and Big Fish Audio create nowadays). Drum loops and phrases/licks in those tend to be stuff you can easily (and should, really) sequence yourself, and it's like putting together the most boring train set. Might as well just use royalty free music at that point.


----------



## chillbot (Mar 1, 2019)

Calabraccio said:


> Drum loops and phrases/licks in those tend to be stuff you can easily (and should, really) sequence yourself


Agree with the word "easily" in this sentence.
Disagree with the words "can" and "should" in this sentence.

Unless you are an absolute master of programming drums you are never going to sound as good as a real drummer with real drums playing in real time. That's the point of using loops... it's not about the process or technique it's about achieving the best possible end result.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Mar 1, 2019)

You guys have got to hear this:


----------



## Calabraccio (Mar 1, 2019)

chillbot said:


> Agree with the word "easily" in this sentence.
> Disagree with the words "can" and "should" in this sentence.
> 
> Unless you are an absolute master of programming drums you are never going to sound as good as a real drummer with real drums playing in real time. That's the point of using loops... it's not about the process or technique it's about achieving the best possible end result.



For emulating acoustic drums as opposed to electronic stuff, I prefer having more control over the sound in general that I find loops can't provide. It's less obvious when you chop up and play with synthesized/hybrid drum loops, while live stuff tends to have more ambience, is less quantized, so on...

And you're sort of restricted in terms of mixing those elements, unless they provide you with dry elements.


----------



## StephenForsyth (Mar 1, 2019)

Not exactly what this thread is about but I just thought I'd post my favourite sample flip of all time. Completely unrecognizable.


----------



## Mike Fox (Mar 1, 2019)

I'm open to having my mind changed about loops, but so far I haven't read anything that convincing as to why I should use loops in the end product of my music. For example, I totally understand how inspiration can be derived from listening to loops, or even minimally using them as training wheels or a crutch to lay down some basic skeletal pieces of your song. But to leave any trace of a loop in the end product of your song doesn't still doesn't make any sense to me...to ME (for my own music). I don't give a rat's ass if other people do it. In fact, I'm willing to bet that some of my favorite pieces of electronic music are drenched in loops, so I would probably be a hypocrite If I knocked musicians that used them.


----------



## MisteR (Mar 1, 2019)

I'm reluctant to use arpeggiators as well. I tend to skip over all ARP patches in the synths I own. But maybe that should be its own thread.


----------



## dflood (Mar 1, 2019)

Compared to most of the working professionals here, I have all the time in the world to audition phrases and loops, and the proliferation of a-la-carte online loop libraries now gives us all nearly limitless loops to choose from. But (hours later) I never seem to find what I am looking for so I end up playing it in with multisamples. Always seems like I’d have been further ahead to just do that in the first place. 

I agree with @chillbot, sometimes there’s a particular guitar tone or a synth pad sound that absolutely drives me crazy trying to recreate, and I would use any loop, phrase, sample library or live musician just to nail it.


----------



## YaniDee (Mar 1, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> I'm open to having my mind changed about loops, but so far I haven't read anything that convincing as to why I should use loops


Nobody is trying to talk you into it! I think we should all be aware of one thing though, in my opinion, loops also includes a lot of current sample libraries such as Sonokinetik and countless other one (or three) finger libraries...it's noble to be pure & "ethical" , but the mega million dollar earning "stars" don't give a sh*t about that..


----------



## Thomas Kallweit (Mar 1, 2019)

Loops as repeated parts (Midi, Audio, Project-Snippets, Clusters) need to be modified. That's it.


----------



## Mike Fox (Mar 1, 2019)

YaniDee said:


> Nobody is trying to talk you into it! I think we should all be aware of one thing though, in my opinion, loops also includes a lot of current sample libraries such as Sonokinetik and countless other one (or three) finger libraries...it's noble to be pure & "ethical" , but the mega million dollar earning "stars" don't give a sh*t about that..


Yeah, "phrase" libs. I stay away from those too. 

It's kinda funny, since I compose a lot of horror music, I sometimes use libraries like Thrill, and other aleatoric libs, and even then, EVEN THEN, I still give myself cap for using pre-recorded stuff. It's sound fx, rather than music, but still...I usually don't feel that proud of it when I hear it in my tracks, no matter how much tweaking I do to the samples.

Look at dudes like Jason Graves. That cat is ORIGINAL!!! And I respect him far more for it.

Oh yeah, no one is trying to talk me into using loops, except for that little devil on my shoulder.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Mar 1, 2019)

There's nothing wrong with other people using loops, but I've never had much luck working with them.

I put one on, I get mesmerized and just sit there doing nothing, the loop doesn't do what I want it to do (because it's a loop), and I remove it and start over.

That goes back as far as the first time I programmed a pattern in the new drum machine I'd just got with my first MIDI setup. I did it once, and then made a A/B MIDI selector switch to select either my keyboard or the drum machine so I could play parts in from its pads.

My brain just doesn't work that way.


----------



## Zero&One (Mar 2, 2019)

Do we consider libs such as Spitfire stuff loops? 
I do


----------



## YaniDee (Mar 2, 2019)

Soon there' will be an AI engine that will put together loops in a folder you've chosen, assemble and mix it for you..with a vocaloid singing AI generated words and melody.


----------



## steveo42 (Mar 2, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> There's nothing wrong with other people using loops, but I've never had much luck working with them.
> 
> I put one on, I get mesmerized and just sit there doing nothing, the loop doesn't do what I want it to do (because it's a loop), and remove it and start over.
> 
> ...



Same for me Nick.
My mind just doesn't work like that.
Plus I do traditional jazz, big band, standards type music which tends to lend itself to a more freestyle type approach.


----------



## Saxer (Mar 2, 2019)

I don't have a lot of use for loops. Sometimes I add some dirt or punch adding loops on top of a nearly finished track. I like programming drum tracks out of sliced loops.


----------



## kitekrazy (Mar 2, 2019)

I like midi loops. It allows me to study the chord progressions and voicing used in dance music. Anything I make with loops I don't call my own but tells others this is what I did with a sample pack. Loops also are great for jamming. I can truly understand that a drummer dislikes loops.


----------



## kitekrazy (Mar 2, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> *Yeah, "phrase" libs. I stay away from those too. *
> 
> It's kinda funny, since I compose a lot of horror music, I sometimes use libraries like Thrill, and other aleatoric libs, and even then, EVEN THEN, I still give myself cap for using pre-recorded stuff. It's sound fx, rather than music, but still...I usually don't feel that proud of it when I hear it in my tracks, no matter how much tweaking I do to the samples.
> 
> ...



Especially vocal ones. Those seem to be short lived. One could buy samples packs and run them through Melodyne.


----------



## kitekrazy (Mar 2, 2019)

YaniDee said:


> Nobody is trying to talk you into it! I think we should all be aware of one thing though, in my opinion, loops also includes a lot of current sample libraries such as Sonokinetik and countless other one (or three) finger libraries...it's noble to be pure & "ethical" , but the* mega million dollar earning "stars" don't give a sh*t about that.*.



Neither does the listener purchasing the music or concert tickets. They don't even care what DAW, compressor, eq, or an Epiphone instead of a Gibson.


----------



## kitekrazy (Mar 2, 2019)

Construction kits are annoying to work with. Most of the sounds can't work without the other. Most of those actually come from well know labels.


----------



## wst3 (Mar 2, 2019)

my intro to loops was Sonic Foundry ACID... I didn't get it then, and I really don't get it now. There are folks that create absolutely brilliant tracks using loops. I an envious, but not motivated enough by envy to spend the time required to become accomplished using loops.

I do not consider loops to be cheating - there are obvious advantages, it is more life like since they phrases are played by live players, and if you know what you are doing it is clearly a potential time saver.

But I've never really grasped the concept I guess.

I have started using percussion loops, such as those provided with some of the more recent percussion libraries. These are MIDI loops, but certainly feel like they were played with stick/mallets/hand/whatever by a talented percussionist. I can get the same result playing the individual samples, but it takes a while, so I take advantage of the loops.

Beyond that application I simply stink at using loops, so I don't.

With respect to aleatoric libraries and arpegiators... these are specific tools for specific tasks. I still struggle with fitting the aleatoric phrases into tracks, and I don't do a lot of music that lends itself to arpegiators, but dang, when they work they can be brilliant.

Tools - it is all about tools. Learn the ones you want to use, and don't spend a lot of time worrying about something that does not fit your style.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Mar 2, 2019)

YaniDee said:


> Soon there' will be an AI engine that will put together loops in a folder you've chosen, assemble and mix it for you..with a vocaloid singing AI generated words and melody.



I don’t think so.


----------



## Brian2112 (Mar 2, 2019)

Wow. Thank you all so much for your thoughtful input. Interestingly as I was reading your responses, I realized a few things. I think my reluctance to use loops may be limited to things that I can’t actually play. For example, any drum loop I’ve ever heard, I could probably think of and perform myself (being a percussionist) so I don’t think of it much except as a placeholder or time saver. Melodic phrases, guitar loops, bass licks, baddass piano licks I can’t play and even ethnic instruments (complete with authentic scales) and so on make me uncomfortable. I’ve used female vocal phrases before (Indian) but as as mentioned earlier, it kind of hard to find and hire a session musician (especially a female Indian singer here in South Texas – If I still lived in Houston it wouldn’t be a problem). I guess what I am saying is that after all these years, I’m finally getting some interest from people in L.A. for doing some scoring work. Perhaps loops can be comfortably used by me for demoing compositions with the hopes that I can later get live musicians. I guess if I was writing EDM I wouldn’t care as much (no disrespect intended). Thank you all for helping me nail down a few things.


----------



## bill5 (Mar 14, 2019)

Brian2112 said:


> Does anyone else have reluctance to use loops?


:raises hand:

I think if you want to use loops, fine, to save time or whatever reason. But if you have a strong aversion to it, that is also fine. I don't see the point in trying to force yourself into doing it one way or other. I personally would never use loops in a recording. My stuff may not be amazing, but both the compositions and the performance at least have to be MINE...not some unknown whoever that recorded something for a plugin that I'm pretending is me. If others are fine with that, hey, to each their own. But neither is there anything wrong with refusing to do so.


----------



## jtnyc (Mar 14, 2019)

Polkasound said:


> I make exceptions for:
> 
> MIDI patterns of single instruments, such as banjo rolls and drum grooves. I could recreate the patterns verbatim and end up with the same exact result, so instead I'll import the pattern just to save time.




What is the difference between that and an audio loop in terms of it being created by someone else?


----------



## calebfaith (Mar 14, 2019)

James H said:


> Do we consider libs such as Spitfire stuff loops?
> I do



All that EVO stuff is pretty close to loops but they seem to use it to try to add more life to the music


----------



## Polkasound (Mar 15, 2019)

jtnyc said:


> What is the difference between that and an audio loop in terms of it being created by someone else?



Two identical MIDI patterns, regardless of who created them, are going to lead to the same exact results when run through the same library. Since I am fully capable of making patterns from scratch, I may choose to build off of existing patterns as nothing more than a time saver. Plus, MIDI patterns still require plenty of creative prowess -- library integration, mixing, processing, etc.

When it comes to audio loops, however, I do not know what sounds/synths/libraries were used to create them. To me, the choosing and mixing of the individual instruments, and the ability to edit them down to the single note level, is a fundamental aspect of music creation. So while my heart will not allow me to use audio loops, I can still be inspired by them no differently than I am inspired by listening to music in any form.


----------



## jtnyc (Mar 15, 2019)

Polkasound said:


> Two identical MIDI patterns, regardless of who created them, are going to lead to the same exact results when run through the same library. Since I am fully capable of making patterns from scratch, I may choose to build off of existing patterns as nothing more than a time saver. Plus, MIDI patterns still require plenty of creative prowess -- library integration, mixing, processing, etc.
> 
> When it comes to audio loops, however, I do not know what sounds/synths/libraries were used to create them. To me, the choosing and mixing of the individual instruments, and the ability to edit them down to the single note level, is a fundamental aspect of music creation. So while my heart will not allow me to use audio loops, I can still be inspired by them no differently than I am inspired by listening to music in any form.



Understood, I just thought the point being made was using a pattern, rhythm or phrase that someone else created vs something you create yourself. I’m not judging one way or the other. I’ll use an occasional loop as a texture or layer, but for drum parts, I just can’t use midi loops. I’ve tried, but it’s always better when I program them from scratch. Same with melodic stuff.


----------



## GtrString (Mar 16, 2019)

Take it for what it is.
I see loops as an example of how defined sounds can be ordered in a repeated sequence.

That can inspire you in ways you may not have thought of (like a rhythm or a sequence), so you can use the loop as a starting point. A “temp” track for inspiration/ kick start, that you may keep or loose, once you have written something on top of it. You may just use the sequence or rhythm to create your own, and then lose the loop after that. Its not that different than hiring a musician you know, that then plays the same old four on the floor, everybody else does. You might also chop up that recording, layer it, or rearrange it so it fits the music.

Another way is to grab the loop and splice it into seperate sounds, that can be playable. In Studio One 4, you can just drag and drop a loop into the pad, and you have each sound componant in the loop mapped out. So you dont need to rely on the example of the repeated sequence, and can easily reorder the loop and make it your own.

There is also sound design in loops, which can be very helpful to nail a vibe or the sound of a certain genre. In that case it is really not the repeated sequence that is useable, but the choice of sounds and production. You may use a small snippet of a loop, the whole loop, or chop it up, but it is the sound signature itself that is the point of using it. Also here you can try using the loop as a “temp”, and lose it once you have copped the vibe you were looking for. That way loops are tools for learning.

Due to the nature of loops, there is also a risk that they will ruin your music, if you work without purpose, and just rely on loops as a foundation for tracks and songs, imo. That way you risk sounding generic, cliche, pastiche, robotic, flat and utterly rubbish. Some loops have been overused to the point where a&r, directors, editors and music supers can hear the exact sample package where it is coming from. If that happens, you can be identified as a hack and will get a shoemark on your pants, that is hard to remove. The definition of a bad trip, for sure!

So like others also have stated, loops are not just fastfood for composers, but can be sound-designed sources of inspiration. If you mindfully use loops with a purpose, it often is the opposite of a timesaver, but it can trigger your creativity, imo.


----------



## Kevin Fortin (Oct 4, 2019)

The first music app I tried, about 20 years ago, was Magix Music Maker, and I was pretty soon turned off by the idea of "making music" by putting together loops instead of channeling my own music (as well as having to buy soundpools to expand the palette/spicerack/scrapbasket).

But I have just recently bought Acid Pro 9 (now owned by Magix) and a subscription to Noiiz.com for loops, and I like it.

Maybe the difference is that I have keyboards, a microphone and VST instruments now, so can make my own scribbles on the collage, or drop my tones and gestures and speak my words into the stew. Or would now be happy to just make a collage "without" all those "personal" additions, as one does anyway when writing a poem or lyrics with inherited and borrowed words and rhythms.

I can totally see someone using loops as the most efficient/cost-effective way to do some of the tracks in a piece, or to use them "backstage" for inspiration or as something to play against or in response to, even if the loops aren't included in the final output.


----------



## Polkasound (Oct 4, 2019)

Since this post was resurrected, I'll share some insight I gained recently while hiring talent. I typically hire vocalists who travel to my studio to record, or else I travel to a studio in their area, but for song I recently produced, I used a talent service and hired a session vocalist from Nashville to record remotely. While using this service, I came across an industry term I had never heard before: toplining.

Toplining is a recent form of songwriting that emerged from the popularity of loop-produced music. Traditionally, entire songs (music, melody and lyrics) were presented to the vocalist. In pop music today, however, producers often create music beds from beats and loops, and then farm the melody writing, lyric writing, and singing out to singer/songwriters.

I was like... what?!? But sure enough, after looking around, I see that many session vocalists list topline songwriting as a service for an extra fee, and it comprises a large percentage of their income. Producers send them beats/loops and basically say "sing something", and this is how pop songs are made.

If good loops and professional singers are used, the end result of these collaborative efforts can sound great. But, as a traditional songwriter/producer, I could never work this way. I understand that beats/loops are everything in today's pop music, but the concept of creating a song with literally _no_ interest in the melody or lyrics is completely absurd to me.


----------



## dflood (Oct 6, 2019)

Polkasound said:


> While using this service, I came across an industry term I had never heard before: toplining.
> 
> Toplining is a recent form of songwriting that emerged from the popularity of loop-produced music. Traditionally, entire songs (music, melody and lyrics) were presented to the vocalist. In pop music today, however, producers often create music beds from beats and loops, and then farm the melody writing, lyric writing, and singing out to singer/songwriters.


Wow! I guess I could see how that could work if you sent your bed track to David Byrne, but to just have some random vocalist wing it? I’m so old school I still try to understand the lyrics and live in hope of sometimes even being surprised.


----------

