# Music Theory question, beginner



## merlinhimself (Dec 11, 2016)

Hey All,

So I'm slightly embarrassed to ask this, but with music theory what do i need to know?
The reason i ask is because whenever i try to look up music theory i either find the basics i already know (scales, modes, maj/min chords, rhythm), or topics that are complex that require prerequisite knowledge to understand.

I keep ending up going further and further down this rabbit hole to understand music theory beyond the fundamentals and getting discouraged.

I want to improve my creative process with music theory versus what i now do which is just hearing something in my head and trying to recreate it. Correct me if I'm wrong but i think a deeper understanding of music theory would expand my palette and ability to compose.

If anyone would be able to suggest a couple topics beyond scales, modes, and basic chords it would help me a great deal to continue learning!

I tried some digging on the JWfan forum and it was complete gibberish to me lol

Thanks!!


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## Niel (Dec 11, 2016)

4 part writing
Counterpoint
Orchestration
Musical form
History of european music

The question is, how much time do you have. You need a couple of years, if you want to learn it properly.


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## agarner32 (Dec 11, 2016)

Your question is a great one and your quest for learning music theory is admiral. And, you should not feel embarrassed asking about music theory.

First of all, you're going to get many different answers to the question and they'll probably all be great answers and valid. The list of subjects Niel pointed out are all part of courses a typical music major at a college would take and typically broken up into separate courses. He's right, it's a couple of years worth of studying just for starters.

I teach full-time at a college and my primary job is head of the theory program for music majors and I'm guessing there are other theory professors on this board. My experience has been that most people do best in a formal classroom setting, but there is no reason why you couldn't learn everything on your own. The problem is that you can't just read about music theory, you have to practice it. This typically means drills/exercises, composition assignments, various types of analysis (form, melodic, harmonic) and score reading. Getting feedback from somebody with experience is crucial otherwise you'll never know whether you're understanding concepts.

If possible, enroll in sequential music theory course at a college. There may be online versions too. If that's not possible then there are a ton of books available and everybody will have their favorites. I think I probably have every major theory book that has been published over the last 30+ years and they all have strengths and weaknesses.

I don't use this book, but have a copy - "Harmonic Materials in Tonal Music" by Greg Steinke. It's a self study course so it has all of the solutions which to me is important. It's rather dry, but does a good job at covering most of the basics through chromatic harmony. Another book that has solutions and even some exams is the AP Music Theory book published by Barron's. It's not really a traditional theory book, but rather a prep for passing AP exams, but it's got quite a bit of information in it and it's cheap. It doesn't cover much chromatic harmony though - I think only up to secondary function chords (Applied Chords in some texts).

As I said, others will probably list their favorite theory book, but again the problem is not having somebody to check your work. If you're simply looking for areas to study in music theory, search some theory books and look at the table of contents. They are usually pretty similar in their progression of topics starting from fundamentals through chromatic and 20th century harmony. If you find one that looks promising to you, ask about it in the forum. There are a ton of super knowledgeable musicians that are willing to share whatever they know. Music theory is a never ending journey. Lastly, it should be pointed out that there are a lot of great musicians and composers who know very little music theory. Although I make my living teaching it, it's not a panacea. There are a ton of great film composers who probably have no idea how to spell and resolve a French 6th chord, but they write brilliant music. And one of them has contributed on this board.

Aaron


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## gsilbers (Dec 11, 2016)

You can go a long way with the basics.

But i agree, we get taught this theory and then you listen to JW or other classical composers and it leaves you with your mouth open in aw. like there is a huge casm between that theory and what we listen in those compositions.
once those tracks are breaken down you start to see similar thoery that you learn but still its those choices on how they make it sound like they do, and its orchestration etc. Which i think thats why transcirbing is the best way of learning. theory serves more as a guide.
Anyways, i like these videos of this guy that reminds me of a Berklee teacher.




So even with the basics there is a whole universe of ways of putting it all together. Chord scales, progression etc. there is a lot that can be done. 
yet, transcirbing JW or studying a score you like will take it to the next level in figuring it out what you want to learn. 

You might want to mention what you know and what do you refer with basic so we might help more/better


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## muk (Dec 12, 2016)

Something that is no rocket science, and that you can apply immediately to improve your writing:

http://vi-control.net/community/thr...complete-with-fancy-pictures-and-sound.56750/


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## Morodiene (Dec 12, 2016)

I think this is a great question, actually. Music theory is a way of explaining what we hear, but sometimes people assume that you learn it to make great music, and that's really not the case. In fact, the opposite is often true: if you "follow the rules" you will often come out with a very plain and uninteresting piece of music. So what do you need to know? Here are my thoughts:

-Know part writing rules. Look at Bach chorales as an example. While part-writing skills won't give you a great sounding piece of music, there are the principles behind it that will help tremendously with orchestration.

-Listen and study great music. With IMSLP.org and youtube, you have access to hundreds of great classical pieces. Pick ones that you like, and then read the score while listening. Pay close attention to parts that to really like and try to figure out what they did, which leads me to the next part:

-Harmonic analysis. Be able to look at a score and determine from the notes used what chord they are playing. You should be familiar with Major, minor, diminished, augmented, and all 7th chords. It also helps to know what secondary dominants are. If you encounter a chord you don't know, look it up and add that to your arsenal. You may even want to keep a record of things you like the sound of to use later on

-Counterpoint. Studying Bach 2-part inventions and fugues is a great way to understand how this works. You don't necessarily have to write either, but just see how this works

-Form analysis. This is probably the biggest thing in composing. If you have a great form, then you can often get by with mediocre melodic and harmonic material. By form, I mean more than simply "ABA" or "Rondo", but that is the beginning. If you have a piece in ABA for example, there are smaller forms that build up your A and B sections. You have phrases that may be in question/answer format, or you can break down a series of phrases into short-short-long phrases, things like that. 

For example, take the song Happy Birthday. You have two phrases that are nearly identical in melodic material and identical in length and have relatively short leaps, followed by a longer phrase that goes higher melodically, and then repeats the shorter beginning phrase and back to smaller leaps. 

Using rhetorical devices is super helpful in building the form. Take the phrase, "I came, I saw, I conquered." Each little phrase is two words, but the 3rd is longer (two syllables), and they each start the same. A musical example of this would be Mozart's Symphony No. 4 the opening phrase: the first two parts are identical, and then the 3rd starts out the same but it goes up a 6th. Or "A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse" can be compared to the Hallelujah chorus opening where you have direct repetition of the first phrase immediately following. 

Studying these things can help you make memorable melodies and build a piece that will have greater impact.


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## ed buller (Dec 12, 2016)

*Practical Manual of Harmony *
by https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Nikolai+Rimsky-Korsakov&search-alias=books&field-author=Nikolai+Rimsky-Korsakov&sort=relevancerank (Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov)

Buy this. The best easiest to read book on Harmony ever written. Work through it slowly and steadily.

you will learn loads

best

e


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## JF (Dec 12, 2016)

Whats the best resource everyone has found on form? It's what I struggle with the most. Online tutorial would help the best.


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## agarner32 (Dec 12, 2016)

JF, I don't know if there is a "best" resource, but there certainly is a plethora of great sites on form and analysis. I think you'll have success if you Google individual topics such as rondo, sonata form, binary form etc. There are also some great tutorials on youtube. One of my favorites and a site I refer my students to is teroria.com. I think it has a bunch of tutorials on musical forms.

Aaron


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## Daniel Petras (Dec 12, 2016)

To add...

Ear training also plays a very strong role in the development of a composer. When you're trying to reach for a certain sound, I believe this is where the experienced ear will kick in. How can someone write a sad song if they don't know the sound of a minor scale?

One approach to developing a strong ear could be the technical mastery of an instrument. If you learn to play every single scale, arpeggio, pattern, etc. forwards and backgrounds, you can be sure that when it comes to composing your ear will remember all these sounds practiced which will then be tools to you as a composer.


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## Drago (Dec 12, 2016)

I'm in the same situation as you and my current approach it to study simplified score for strings like these ones https://www.youtube.com/user/HLOrchestra (John Williams is too complex I think)
Of course I read slowly but steadily a book on harmony until it's too difficult. Then I reread it from the start and will go one or more chapter further, then repeat


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## Will Blackburn (Dec 12, 2016)

i really like how this guy puts it. Theres a second video after this one


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## Morodiene (Dec 12, 2016)

agarner32 said:


> JF, I don't know if there is a "best" resource, but there certainly is a plethora of great sites on form and analysis. I think you'll have success if you Google individual topics such as rondo, sonata form, binary form etc. There are also some great tutorials on youtube. One of my favorites and a site I refer my students to is teroria.com. I think it has a bunch of tutorials on musical forms.
> 
> Aaron


I think you meant teoria.com .  That is a good site.


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## merlinhimself (Dec 12, 2016)

@Niel @Morodiene @ed buller @agarner32 @muk @gsilbers @wcb123 @Sonorityscape & @JF for bringing up another great question.

You're all honestly the best! Ill have to reread everyones posts, but this is a great starting point, thank you again


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## Will Blackburn (Dec 12, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> I think you meant teoria.com .  That is a good site.



That website is great, nice share


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## JF (Dec 12, 2016)

Morodiene said:


> I think you meant teoria.com .  That is a good site.


Thanks I will check it out!


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## Living Fossil (Dec 13, 2016)

merlinhimself said:


> Hey All,
> 
> So I'm slightly embarrassed to ask this, but with music theory what do i need to know?



It's a great thing that you're aiming to learn theory, you shouldn't be embarrassed at all!

When people start writing music without theoretical knowledge, what happens is that they
unconsciously coply the music they like. Usually this happens in a rather clumsy way in the beginning, however,
talented people may get good results even on this level, since they make their decisions with taste and originality.
And of course, the most important thing in cultur is: having something to say.

Learning theory makes this imitiation a lot easier; you will start to see some mechanisms that are at work.

Beeing able to write music in a really original way however needs much more than knowing the theory; first, there are many, many levels of understanding the things one knows. And then, later on, it needs an understanding of the mechanisms behind the theory.
So, at a point, one learns theory and analyses music to get a better understanding of what's behind of what one learns.
Then again: Music has so many different aspects that you don't have to be an expert in every area.
Lots of music uses very generic harmonic models and still is great.
Lots of music has no irresistible groove and still works;
and lots of good music has no big melodic lines and developments.
It's up to you what you want to focus on.

For most composers, learning was/is a lifelong task.
In fact, music has so many facettes that there is no end in possiblities to improve.


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## merlinhimself (Dec 13, 2016)

Sonorityscape said:


> If you learn to play every single scale, arpeggio, pattern, etc. forwards and backgrounds, you can be sure that when it comes to composing your ear will remember all these sounds practiced which will then be tools to you as a composer.



Will definitely give this a go! I had tried out this website called meludia, which was very cool for ear training, but having actual practice with an instrument vs listening and choosing an answer seems so much better.


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## merlinhimself (Dec 13, 2016)

@Living Fossil hey thanks for the response! By analyzing music do you approach it by mocking up a piece in Sibelius or DAW? I transcribe when I can by ear, recreate a score in Sibelius to listen to individual parts with others, but I guess my question is, how do you analyze it? I know that's a very large question lol. But do you learn from the progression, or the voicing, or intervals? I've mocked up a quarter so far of the 4th movement of beethovens 5th and feel like I've passively learned a lot going through it, but I feel like I would get lost trying to undstand why he did what he did.


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## ctsai89 (Dec 13, 2016)

merlinhimself said:


> @Living Fossil hey thanks for the response! By analyzing music do you approach it by mocking up a piece in Sibelius or DAW? I transcribe when I can by ear, recreate a score in Sibelius to listen to individual parts with others, but I guess my question is, how do you analyze it? I know that's a very large question lol. But do you learn from the progression, or the voicing, or intervals? I've mocked up a quarter so far of the 4th movement of beethovens 5th and feel like I've passively learned a lot going through it, but I feel like I would get lost trying to undstand why he did what he did.



analyzing as in jotting down the chord progressions a piece is using. And determining whether those chords are tonic, predominant, or dominant, or others. 

For example: try to analyze Wagner's beginning of the famous tristan und isolde, you mind find that there is no correct way around to interpret if a chord there was the defining tonic/dominant in it. Those chords in there itself reinterprets into another key and so on (trying not to go too detailed into it) but you should find out about it.


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## dannymc (Dec 13, 2016)

wcb123 said:


> i really like how this guy puts it. Theres a second video after this one





wow this video is cool, really makes it easy to grasp. the part at the end where he goes through all the chord combinations for different film scores, is he leaving some chords out for simplification purposes or are these score sequences actually just two chords going back and forth with a top line melody? 

Danny


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## Daniel Petras (Dec 13, 2016)

merlinhimself said:


> Will definitely give this a go! I had tried out this website called meludia, which was very cool for ear training, but having actual practice with an instrument vs listening and choosing an answer seems so much better.



Also, ear training is about learning the relationship of one note to another or between many notes. This is why learning modes is so great. You could play all the modes starting on C coming from the major parent scale. For example. C Ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, etc. By doing this you can explore different sounds possible to create while only playing from C to C. It's good to keep the root sustained in order to hear how each note feels against it.


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## Living Fossil (Dec 13, 2016)

merlinhimself said:


> @Living Fossil hey thanks for the response! By analyzing music do you approach it by mocking up a piece in Sibelius or DAW? I transcribe when I can by ear, recreate a score in Sibelius to listen to individual parts with others, but I guess my question is, how do you analyze it? I know that's a very large question lol. But do you learn from the progression, or the voicing, or intervals? I've mocked up a quarter so far of the 4th movement of beethovens 5th and feel like I've passively learned a lot going through it, but I feel like I would get lost trying to undstand why he did what he did.



I like to use the piano and a score to analzye, old school 
The question - *what* to analyse - is the crucial one.
Analsying the harmonic structure usually works great for pop music, but it's not enough for most pre-commercial music.
No matter if you analyze Bach or Wagner's Tristan or Schubert or Mozart or Palestrina: the impact of the used chords in most traditional music is very often the result of a (extremely) intelligent voicing.
Then again, if you analyze e.g. Daphnis et Chloe of Ravel, the most interesting part is to have a closer look at the textures that the instruments play.
When you analyse Vangelis' Blade Runner, a lot of the essence is hidden in the involved synth sounds.
When you analyze a Joe Cocker song, have a look at the articulations and phrasings of his voice.
And with lots of popular music a quintessential point is hidden in the rhyhtmical structure: what they play and how the sound of different elements relates to each other.

So, if you approach music in an analytical way, ask yourself what you really like in that music and try to find it.
But that's a difficult task that needs years of practise...


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