# Has this become the Dorico forum?



## dtoub (Feb 2, 2022)

Seriously. All that I'm seeing here, with the exceptions of a small number of Sibelius-related posts and 1-2 that focus on NotePerformer (although mostly with regard to Dorico), are Dorico-related posts. That's fine, but can we just drop the pretense and rename this? Maybe there should be a separate forum for Finale and one for Sibelius. But not all of us use Dorico and would certainly appreciate some discussion around other software. Just saying. And why is there still a pinned post here about saving Sibelius? That's clearly not an issue anymore as best I can tell.


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## ptram (Feb 2, 2022)

Yes, it's a scandal. I'm thinking of creating a petition on change.org to ask for a limit to the number of posts dedicated to Dorico allowed in this forum.

Paolo


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## dtoub (Feb 2, 2022)

Just rename it. It’s silly if there isn’t any interest in other notation programs.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Feb 2, 2022)

It could be just that Dorico has released the most recent update vs Sibelius / Finale and hence recent posts are about that.

Nobody’s stopping you from creating a post about the others - but instead you created another one about Dorico 😂


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## ptram (Feb 2, 2022)

The moderators could establish a quota system. For each two posts about Dorico, each member shall write the same number of posts about Sibelius or Finale (either both, or just two about one of them). This would make for a much better balanced forum.

Paolo


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## zolhof (Feb 2, 2022)




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## dcoscina (Feb 2, 2022)

It’s like the first season of Gilligan’s Island where they just referred to The Professor and Mary Ann as “and the rest”. So basically it should be Dorico…and the rest. 😅


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## Daryl (Feb 3, 2022)

dtoub said:


> Seriously. All that I'm seeing here, with the exceptions of a small number of Sibelius-related posts and 1-2 that focus on NotePerformer (although mostly with regard to Dorico), are Dorico-related posts. That's fine, but can we just drop the pretense and rename this? Maybe there should be a separate forum for Finale and one for Sibelius. But not all of us use Dorico and would certainly appreciate some discussion around other software. Just saying. And why is there still a pinned post here about saving Sibelius? That's clearly not an issue anymore as best I can tell.


What did you want to discuss about Sibelius or Finale?


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## DivingInSpace (Feb 3, 2022)

Now that we've established that we need to rename the whole notation software discussion to Dorico discussion, i think we could take this further. What about renaming the commercial announcements section to "Spitfire: The end of an Era"? I mean, nobody cares about other announcements anyways right?


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## Vlzmusic (Feb 3, 2022)

Staffpad has its own category, and Finale/Sibelius are almost 3 decades old, don't you think their users got their answers by now?


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## sundrowned (Feb 3, 2022)

Musescore isn't even mentioned and when version 4 comes out it might turn into the Musescore forum


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## arafaratanran (Feb 3, 2022)

That is WRONG! This CLEARLY is the Spitfire Audio Forum!!! 

Gosh ... I am so triggered!!!


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## Crowe (Feb 3, 2022)

That's utter nonsense. Most people being mostly interested in one thing doesn't necessitate forbidding talk about anything else.


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## cmillar (Feb 3, 2022)

Well....most people I know who use Sibelius and Finale are mainly interested in getting actual parts and scores out to real musicians.

Dorico users, and potential users, seem to be mainly interested in having their VI's play back their music.

So, a lot of Sibelius users get all their questions answered by fellow composers on a couple of different Facebook groups. Plenty of great discussions there.


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## Prockamanisc (Feb 3, 2022)

Much like "internet browsing" has become "Googling", we should rename the practice of creating sheet music "Dorico-ing". 

But for real, it's such a good program. My last Sibelius update was in 2015, because improvements were not worth the upgrade price. And Avid is a repulsive company. If they weren't, then Dorico wouldn't even exist in the first place.


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## RogiervG (Feb 3, 2022)

dtoub said:


> Just rename it. It’s silly if there isn’t any interest in other notation programs.


"Dorico discussions, and some meaningless other notation software might be discussed here too"

but a bit more seriously...
by that logic the sample forum needs a rename too
"only popular sample library discussions"


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## Henrik B. Jensen (Feb 3, 2022)

RogiervG said:


> "Dorico discussions, and some meaningless other notation software might be discussed here too"
> 
> but a bit more seriously...
> by that logic the sample forum needs a rename too
> "only popular sample library discussions"


That’s the largest signature I’ve ever seen, RogiervG 🙂


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## RogiervG (Feb 3, 2022)

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> That’s the largest signature I’ve ever seen, RogiervG 🙂


There is a first time for everything


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## Tralen (Feb 3, 2022)

dtoub said:


> Seriously. All that I'm seeing here, with the exceptions of a small number of Sibelius-related posts and 1-2 that focus on NotePerformer (although mostly with regard to Dorico), are Dorico-related posts. That's fine, but can we just drop the pretense and rename this? Maybe there should be a separate forum for Finale and one for Sibelius. But not all of us use Dorico and would certainly appreciate some discussion around other software. Just saying. And why is there still a pinned post here about saving Sibelius? That's clearly not an issue anymore as best I can tell.


If we make a separate forum for Sibelius or Finale, they will be mostly empty, simply because there isn't much to talk about them anymore. What improvements have been done that would elicit engagement from the community or that would invite a technical discussion?

If you want people to start talking about Sibelius and Finale, you better get Avid and MakeMusic to make meaningful improvements.

I'm a Sibelius user, by the way.


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## prodigalson (Feb 3, 2022)

dtoub said:


> But not all of us use Dorico and would certainly appreciate some discussion around other software.


Then why not ask your question or start a sibelius thread and hey presto... DISCUSSION!!


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## BlackDorito (Feb 3, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> Then why not ask your question or start a sibelius thread and hey presto... DISCUSSION!!


This is the thing to do ... but getting back to the sentiment of the OP, there is indeed much more momentum to talk about Dorico. Since I use Sibelius on every project, and I have it drive multiple VI libraries directly (it is in essence my DAW), I can say with confidence that it could improve in basic playback features such as (i) score markings that represent articulation switches, and (ii) the linkage between a score stave and a particular VI instrument. I would be interested in that sort of Sibelius thread, but I suspect folks would say (with some justification) "Avid has not shown any real interest in addressing playback issues since Sib8, so just switch to Dorico already, since it is vastly better in the area of playback"


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## dtoub (Feb 3, 2022)

Lots of discussion about Finale (I’m not a Sibelius user nor of Musescore) at an unofficial Finale forum and also on the official one through MM. But for sure this forum is mainly Dorico. Just like Scoring Notes is mainly Dorico these days. I get it. And perhaps there are fewer of us now using Finale and also perhaps there’s less to talk about because there are few new or novel features (if a 30-year-old app was still in need of a lot of stuff then something would be odd). It does need some updating as with any program but it’s mature. I suspect the same is true of Sibelius. I just think if the good majority of users here are discussing Dorico then maybe there isn’t anything here for us Finale and Sibelius users. That’s fine but if the forum has Finale and Sibelius in its title you can understand why I posted what I did. if de facto this is now angiod place for Dorico users to kvell, that’s great but probably not something users of other programs need to peruse in the hopes something for them will emerge.


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## ruslan.st (Feb 3, 2022)

dtoub said:


> And why is there still a pinned post here about saving Sibelius? That's clearly not an issue anymore as best I can tell.


Saving Sibelius becomes important again when everybody speaks about Dorico.
Partially I agree with the point. I use Musescore and would be happy to hear more opinions and experiences about it.


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## Jett Hitt (Feb 3, 2022)

dtoub said:


> And perhaps there are fewer of us now using Finale and also perhaps there’s less to talk about because there are few new or novel features (if a 30-year-old app was still in need of a lot of stuff then something would be odd).


I am a Finale user of 30 years, and it hasn't had any meaningful updates in at least 15. There is little that I can do with Finale today that I couldn't do in 1998. Finale should be king of the mountain, and instead, they are sitting on 30 years of antiquated code. Dorico is the future. That's why we talk about it.


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## MauroPantin (Feb 3, 2022)

I have all three. I started in Finale, jumped ship to Sibelius for 8-9 years and have been slowly transitioning to Dorico for the past year.

Unfortunately, there's little to ask about Finale or Sibelius, IMO. Or maybe, being more precise, there are questions to ask, but there's almost no point in asking them anymore. The answer to most of those questions is that the developers kinda gave up. "Why is X this way?" and usually the answer is "Because that's how it's always been". In my view Dorico is the only pro notation software that is being actively developed. The others... barely. Lukewarm updates. So people talk about the software that is solving problems that have been around for decades, like condensing parts. How could it possibly have taken so long for this feature to be addressed by someone? Easily one of the most painful parts of music preparations, 90% solved without user intervention with just a couple of clicks. That feature alone made it worth for me to switch my entire workflow.

It pains me because I don't live in the US and those licenses were REALLY expensive for me, particularly the Finale one as I was just starting out, it was like an entire month's worth of income at the time. I keep them installed for legacy compatibility and they still see use from time to time, but the time-efficiency I experience when the client is software agnostic or prefers Dorico is just ludicrous, it makes Finale and Sibelius look as old as a Gutenberg press.


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## aeliron (Feb 3, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> Then why not ask your question or start a sibelius thread and hey presto... DISCUSSION!!



I’ll start. Which Dorico features would you like to see in Sibelius and Finale, or vice-versa? 😂


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## devonmyles (Feb 3, 2022)

Dorico goes up to eleven,
why would you even consider trying to talk about another App?
You won't be heard above the noise of Dorico.**

😁


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## cmillar (Feb 4, 2022)

Observations:

- Sibelius users have great forums at Facebook with great moderators we can check out

- Finale users have great forums as well

- both Sibelius and Finale, in their current versions, are pretty fantastic and serve the needs of professional copyists, orchestrators, composers, arrangers, and educators perfectly well

- it seems that the majority of Dorico users are really more interested in having Dorico become a 'do all' playback machine

- it makes sense that Dorico is discussed a lot in VI Forum due it's trying to appeal to DAW users that are wanting it to behave like a glorified playback machine

- Noteperformer is really pretty fantastic for composers, arrangers, and orchestrators who are really more interested in printing out music and just need to do some occasional note and pitch checking with Noteperformer loaded in their computer. It's hassle-free and just works.

- no 'world-domination' is necessary for one notation platform over the other. Just like being able to choose between different DAW's, different ways of thinking and having different priorities amongst users makes the world go 'round.

Have at it.


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## benwiggy (Feb 4, 2022)

This is primarily a forum for users of virtual instruments, and I suspect the number of people using any VST/sample library in Finale other than Garritan or Noteperformer with Finale is probably very small.

Trying to set up controls (or God forbid CC automation) for one of the more complex libraries would be a massive amount of tedious work, which could be more easily done in Logic, Cubase etc.

Dorico, unsurprisingly as a Steinberg product, has provided DAW-familiar tools and flexible control over third-party VSTs, which makes the latest version very relevant to those interested in audio rendering.

If Finale 27.2 brings us a radical overhaul of the MIDI Tool, to provide a similarly DAW-like environment, then I'm sure there'll be lots of posts about it here.


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## prodigalson (Feb 4, 2022)

cmillar said:


> it makes sense that Dorico is discussed a lot in VI Forum due it's trying to appeal to DAW users that are wanting it to behave like a glorified playback machine


I like that, I'm going to start calling my DAW a "Glorified Playback Machine". 

I can't wait for the "which is the best GPM for film scoring?" thread.


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## prodigalson (Feb 4, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> If Finale 27.2 brings us a radical overhaul of the MIDI Tool, to provide a similarly DAW-like environment, then I'm sure there'll be lots of posts about it here.


good luck, there are basic graphical bugs still in Finale a decade or more later


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## cmillar (Feb 4, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> I like that, I'm going to start calling my DAW a "Glorified Playback Machine".
> 
> I can't wait for the "which is the best GPM for film scoring?" thread.


To clarify:

I'd be correct in assuming an extremely small percentage (like 0.5%) of people who are actually scoring film or TV shows notate their music first, and then depend on Dorico to play it back in sync; or notate it all first and then translate their notation into their DAW of choice for playback.

There's no time for that. (I know...I've done some work in Film and Documentaries).

People scoring for the big films these days have huge budgets and people working for them to make all the logistics of scores, parts, synth-parts sync, and even have people doing their 'mock-ups'.

People working on smaller budget projects (but, which usually have the most demanding deadlines) don't have time to notate and orchestrate every detail in their TV scores and then translate all that into a DAW (or something like Dorico) for playback. There's no time to do that.

And, you can't notate most synth parts and sound design... you just play it in (or draw some squiggly lines with a synth-patch note into your sketch score as a reminder of what to play in when creating the actual score)

Depending on a notation program to magically play back every piece of music you write as good as or better than you conceive it to be played by real people when you're under crazy time constraints? Very few working musicians have the luxury of enough time for that.

The vast majority of people actually composing music for media have to move onwards to pump out some more music. If it's going straight to TV or film and you're the sole composer/orchestrator/arranger/producer, it doesn't need to be fully notated.


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## benwiggy (Feb 4, 2022)

cmillar said:


> The vast majority of people actually composing music for media


But of course people composing for TV and film are only a fraction of 'people outputting music'. Plenty of people are producing notation for performers to play outside of that arena.


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## cmillar (Feb 4, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> But of course people composing for TV and film are only a fraction of 'people outputting music'. Plenty of people are producing notation for performers to play outside of that arena.


I agree, and that's my first love and what I'm just wanting to do now. I'm not in the 'big leagues' of media music. I'm a musician first and foremost, which has me focusing on playing and composing for projects like dance choreographers, multi-media artists, and chamber ensembles of 'real musicians.'

For me, Sibelius is fine with NotePerformer for checking pitches. But I'd like to fully explore the 'DAW-like' playback capabilities it now has thanks to great updates and plugins such as 'Graphical MIDI Tools', which I own but haven't had time to fully explore.

I just need to print parts and scores, and maybe get something out to performers or a conductor that gives an idea of what I have in mind for the music.


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## Daryl (Feb 4, 2022)

I am transitioning (what a horrid word) from Sibelius to Dorico. So far most of what I can do in Sibelius, I can do in Dorico (have yet to try out Dorico 4), but not all. However, there are many things I can do in Dorico that I can't do in Sibelius, and it is unlikely that they will ever be possible, so it's a case of gradually shifting all new projects to Dorico, and leaving Sibelius behind. I started with Sibelius in 1993, so I don't take moving lightly, but in so many respects Dorico is years ahead of the competition, that I really don't want to spend any more time using Sibelius. than I have to.


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## benwiggy (Feb 4, 2022)

Daryl said:


> So far most of what I can do in Sibelius, I can do in Dorico (have yet to try out Dorico 4), but not all.


For me, it's about the _way_ it does things, as much as the unique features on either side. So many things are faster, easier and more straightforward. Of course, I could probably achieve the same results on the page in any software: but the journey to the destination is more pleasant.


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## Daryl (Feb 4, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> For me, it's about the _way_ it does things, as much as the unique features on either side. So many things are faster, easier and more straightforward. Of course, I could probably achieve the same results on the page in any software: but the journey to the destination is more pleasant.


I am too ingrained in Sibelius to make an informed judgement on that yet. Some Dorico things drive me nuts, but slowly it's becoming more natural. After all, I'm trying to unlearn 29 years of Sibelius think...!


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## dtoub (Feb 4, 2022)

cmillar said:


> - Noteperformer is really pretty fantastic for composers, arrangers, and orchestrators who are really more interested in printing out music and just need to do some occasional note and pitch checking with Noteperformer loaded in their computer. It's hassle-free and just works.


I agree. But I use NP with Finale more to create better audio files of my works. GPO5 is great for checking pitches and hearing playback and in many cases also for audio files. Some instruments/combinations are better in NP, some in GPO5 and some are better in Reason.


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## dtoub (Feb 4, 2022)

prodigalson said:


> good luck, there are basic graphical bugs still in Finale a decade or more later


Perhaps, but a lot of us can do what we need to do just fine. Agree that the MIDI tool is quite long in the tooth and some of us have certainly asked for an overhaul there.


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## cmillar (Feb 4, 2022)

Daryl said:


> I am too ingrained in Sibelius to make an informed judgement on that yet. Some Dorico things drive me nuts, but slowly it's becoming more natural. After all, I'm trying to unlearn 29 years of Sibelius think...!


I too tried to like Dorico. But I couldn't wrap my mind around it's methodical way of making you think 'too mathematically' when it came to note input when using 'pitch before duration'. 

I want to think like a composer with pencil and paper, not as an engraver/composer at the same time. Hence, I'm sticking to Sibelius and it's 'pitch before duration' when I'm inputting scores or even composing straight into it once.

Good luck in your transition


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## ed buller (Feb 4, 2022)

cmillar said:


> I too tried to like Dorico. But I couldn't wrap my mind around it's methodical way of making you think 'too mathematically' when it came to note input when using 'pitch before duration'.
> 
> I want to think like a composer with pencil and paper, not as an engraver/composer at the same time. Hence, I'm sticking to Sibelius and it's 'pitch before duration' when I'm inputting scores or even composing straight into it once.
> 
> Good luck in your transition


you can do pitch before duration in Dorico

best

e


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## cmillar (Feb 4, 2022)

ed buller said:


> you can do pitch before duration in Dorico
> 
> best
> 
> e


Yes....but when they introduced it a year or more ago, it was pretty convoluted to my way of thinking and especially from how Sibelius just made it work so easily. My beef with Dorico is/was regarding ties over the bar from a syncopation into the new bar. You had to stop and recalculate and think like a mathmetician, instead of pencil/paper trained composer. Kind of a 'flow killer' to stop and think about how many beats you have to calculate your note is tied to instead of just creating a tie-to-a-dotted quarter' or 'tie-to-a-half note'. It was especially weird to the mind when tying a note over a barline from a note that wasn't directly on the beat in the first place. Too much mental gymnastics...pencil and paper or Sibelius makes it easier and more natural.

Maybe I'll try it again to see if anything has changed at all in 'pitch before duration'.


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## benwiggy (Feb 4, 2022)

cmillar said:


> Kind of a 'flow killer' to stop and think about how many beats you have to calculate your note is tied to instead of just creating a tie-to-a-dotted quarter' or 'tie-to-a-half note'.


You can always enter the first note, and press T to tie the next note, if you want.


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## ed buller (Feb 4, 2022)

cmillar said:


> Yes....but when they introduced it a year or more ago, it was pretty convoluted to my way of thinking and especially from how Sibelius just made it work so easily. My beef with Dorico is/was regarding ties over the bar from a syncopation into the new bar. You had to stop and recalculate and think like a mathmetician, instead of pencil/paper trained composer. Kind of a 'flow killer' to stop and think about how many beats you have to calculate your note is tied to instead of just creating a tie-to-a-dotted quarter' or 'tie-to-a-half note'. It was especially weird to the mind when tying a note over a barline from a note that wasn't directly on the beat in the first place. Too much mental gymnastics...pencil and paper or Sibelius makes it easier and more natural.
> 
> Maybe I'll try it again to see if anything has changed at all in 'pitch before duration'.


wanna break a tie hit U.....really easy. Shift a note value backwards and the tie adjusts !

really nice

best

e


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## cmillar (Feb 4, 2022)

ed buller said:


> wanna break a tie hit U.....really easy. Shift a note value backwards and the tie adjusts !
> 
> really nice
> 
> ...


Try several different notations tied into the next measure (different rhythmic values tied over the barline into different values). 

If it's as easy as Sibelius (ie:as close to just as if you're just using a pencil on paper to accomplish ties going over a barline) then I'll check it out again out of curiosity.


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## Daryl (Feb 7, 2022)

cmillar said:


> Try several different notations tied into the next measure (different rhythmic values tied over the barline into different values).
> 
> If it's as easy as Sibelius (ie:as close to just as if you're just using a pencil on paper to accomplish ties going over a barline) then I'll check it out again out of curiosity.


This is really easy. Makes no difference how many notes. You jsut have to find your favourite way of doing it. This is one areas where Sibelius is much slower.


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