# Convo Reverb, or are my Algo's enough?



## Snoobydoobydoo (Sep 30, 2020)

So im getting wet with Trailerstuff and Gamemusic,
and thinking about if i could have a need for a convo 
reverb for my sample/real instruments libs.

What i currently have is: 
-Vally Room (+Shimmer)
-Eventide Ultra Reverb
-Softube Tsar1 + 1R
-Stock Cubase Reverbs
-Some others, like from Uhbik (never used)

I avoid all the internal Reverbs of my Vsti's, because they
sound too different in the mix.

Val. Room is for my Synths and im quite happy with it, but
When trying Cubase's Reverence i felt it sounds better
on samples / real instruments than Vally Room, but the rooms 
in Reverence are pretty limited.
Is there a need for me to get a full convo reverb? Is an option
like Altiverb dated?


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## doctoremmet (Sep 30, 2020)

Some room and hall reverbs in convolution reverbs do sound gorgeous. Some people swear by EW Spaces II (don’t have it). Others like Seventh Heaven (me too). You can try it yourself by getting Waves IR1 for $30 or Melda‘s free package of plugins, containing a convo. There are a lot of good free impulse responses out there, and a lot of threads where to find them. You don’t need to spend a lot to get your feet wet, or even to achieve good results.


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## MarcelM (Sep 30, 2020)

convology xt is free and also supports true stereo. you can get some very nice IR for it aswell for free like the bricasti m7 ones.

i own spaces aswell, but use convology aswell. maybe good to try it out.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Sep 30, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Some room and hall reverbs in convolution reverbs do sound gorgeous. Some people swear by EW Spaces II (don’t have it). Others like Seventh Heaven (me too). You can try it yourself by getting Waves IR1 for $30 or Melda‘s free package of plugins, containing a convo. There are a lot of good free impulse responses out there, and a lot of threads where to find them. You don’t need to spend a lot to get your feet wet, or even to achieve good results.


Spaces II, yes..its on sale atm. too but ends to soon for me :|...Waves, i always avoided them. Lets see what i can find. Seventh heaven could fit, Altiverb really seems overpriced but has so much nice IR's...(but i doubt i would use more than 10% of them).
Aside from the convo's,...
I bought room because i saw it everywhere, but lately i read negative stuff about it....then i begin to look for alternatives.


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## mscp (Sep 30, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> So im getting wet with Trailerstuff and Gamemusic,
> and thinking about if i could have a need for a convo
> reverb for my sample/real instruments libs.
> 
> ...




It really depends. Why do *you* use your reverbs for? Are you looking for a particular space? Colouration? Too many things to consider. 

I have the following reverbs (if you need another opinion on those):

- R4
- Nimbus
- Altiverb
- Spaces II
- Valhalla (all)
- Fabfilter Pro-R
- Soundtoys plate
- Eventide Blackhole
- + external gear.


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## Dietz (Sep 30, 2020)

My rule-of-thumb: Impulse responses for the sensation of "being there / the beauty of real rooms (plus their faults)", algorithmic reverb for "bigger than life / too good to be true" sound and sweetening.

Sidenote: I avoid sampled algo-reverbs, they mostly rely on subtle modulation and other non-linear stuff that defies sampling. Springs and plates OTOH can sound pretty nice as IRs, if done properly, although they will miss typical saturation and distortion effects, too.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Sep 30, 2020)

Actually, there are algorithmic reverbs that can do plates exceptionally well.

Years ago I watched a friend working on factory presets for an inexpensive Yamaha reverb in a studio that had a real plate. You'd have been hard pressed to tell the difference, and if you could you couldn't say one was better than the other.


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## Dietz (Oct 1, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Actually, there are algorithmic reverbs that can do plates exceptionally well.


Absolutely!


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## doctoremmet (Oct 1, 2020)

Snoobydoobydoo said:


> Spaces II, yes..its on sale atm. too but ends to soon for me :|...Waves, i always avoided them. Lets see what i can find. Seventh heaven could fit, Altiverb really seems overpriced but has so much nice IR's...(but i doubt i would use more than 10% of them).
> Aside from the convo's,...
> I bought room because i saw it everywhere, but lately i read negative stuff about it....then i begin to look for alternatives.


It’s an algo, but R4 for $29.99 at Pluginboutique (crossgrade for which almost every human being is eligible) is a true bargain. Gorgeous top tier reverb. Add $16 for Melda MReverbMB!


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## FlyingAndi (Oct 1, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Some room and hall reverbs in convolution reverbs do sound gorgeous. Some people swear by EW Spaces II (don’t have it). Others like Seventh Heaven (me too). You can try it yourself by getting Waves IR1 for $30 or Melda‘s free package of plugins, containing a convo. There are a lot of good free impulse responses out there, and a lot of threads where to find them. You don’t need to spend a lot to get your feet wet, or even to achieve good results.


As you probably have the free bricasti IRs, I always wondered, what more does Seventh Heaven give you (as it's also based on bricasti IRs).

Also with @Dietz post is something I've been thinking about for some time. Do IRs of algorithmic units make sense? Doesn't that take the life out of the algorithmic reverbs?
(Actually I'm quite happy with the results I get from the free bricasti IRs but GAS tells me I need something else.)


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## doctoremmet (Oct 1, 2020)

FlyingAndi said:


> As you probably have the free bricasti IRs, I always wondered, what more does Seventh Heaven give you (as it's also based on bricasti IRs).


Seventh Heaven in its $69 Core iteration mostly offers ease of use. I dial in Sandor’s Hall, adjust the time and I’m done. I don’t pretend it’s much else. Watch those blind shootout tests @christianhenson and Jake Jackson did (would LOVE an update Christian!) and you’ll probably agree it is HARD to pretend I’d be able to tell you differently. Their beloved hardware TC Electronic / Altiverb convo verbs did NOT get picked, whereas the OP’s Valhalla Room actually came in second IIRC and the Lexicon plugins won.

So the truth probably is: I like Seventh Heaven because I “get” the UI. And I also like @Cory Pelizzari and his initial review was so good and convincing (for ME) that I switched to 7H. I use it for tails to glue different libraries together. I also use Exponential Audio verbs, Valhalla Vintage Verb and Relab (their VSS clone). For early reflections and spatialization I use EAReverb2. I have also used (very) recent sales to get DearVRPro and MReverbMB. The latter is currently on flash sale for $16, and has a cool spatialization function as well.

Cool videos on using reverb by Cory Pelizzari, @Beat Kaufmann and @Joël Dollié have also been extremely helpful. I also advice you to watch for reverb threads on here. Typically Beat chimes in and his tips have been invaluable for me.


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## CGR (Oct 1, 2020)

Another option is a Convolution IR plugin such as AudioThing's FOG Convolver, loaded with binaural IRs captured at various distances and directions.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Oct 1, 2020)

Hmm, well what id like to is some more realism in terms
of hearing that an instrument is in a certain real room.

When using Algo Reverbs i have i find it hard to achieve that effect,
and it can quickly get a muddy tail or just wash the instruments
together, not in a pleasant glueing way.

For example i use Addictive Drums 2, and using the included room 
signal of it (Those Fairfax's recorded in Sound City), 
sounds way better than applying any reverb (i own) afterwards. 
Such a difference..

As stated before, im using V. Room as my main Reverb and
sometimes i feel its sounds washy (no matter the settings), 
great for thickening the signal, but not so spacious as i 
think it could sound.

So on one hand id like something for a realistic room
(reference rooms and halls eventually), so im eyeing on 
7th Heaven or Altiverb (but ill try some M7 IR's first)
and compare it with 7th Heaven.

On the other hand a Reverb thats more "wide/open",
"spacious" than Valhalla Room.


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## CGR (Oct 1, 2020)

This may not be the type of music you described, but it's an example of binaural impulse responses used for positioning instruments within a common space:






Binaural Impulse responses


I've been experimenting with placing virtual instruments in a space using Binaural Impulse responses captured in various positions in the same location:




vi-control.net


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Oct 1, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> It’s an algo, but R4 for $29.99 at Pluginboutique (crossgrade for which almost every human being is eligible) is a true bargain. Gorgeous top tier reverb. Add $16 for Melda MReverbMB!


Crossgrade, yea never bought anything there yet. Njyyaaa...


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## Piotrek K. (Oct 1, 2020)

I also use algo Eareverb 2 for ER / depth and convolution Waves IR-1 for tail (huge set of great IRs + m7 samples available). Even though I recently tested 7th heaven and love simplicity of it I don't feel the need to buying it.

In general your convo reverb is as good as impulses you have. And I'm happy with IR-1.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 1, 2020)

Piotrek K. said:


> I also use algo Eareverb 2 for ER / depth and convolution Waves IR-1 for tail (huge set of great IRs + m7 samples available). Even though I recently tested 7th heaven and love simplicity of it I don't feel the need to buying it.
> 
> In general your convo reverb is as good as impulses you have. And I'm happy with IR-1.


Waves IR1 comes with a BUNCH of good IRs and loads pretty much all others. If $30 is too much, there are even free alternatives, such as the Melda one. EAReverb2 is a cool one too. Great combo!


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Oct 5, 2020)

Decided for 7H. Tested the trial of the Pro, will not uninstall it


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## storyteller (Oct 5, 2020)

FlyingAndi said:


> As you probably have the free bricasti IRs, I always wondered, what more does Seventh Heaven give you (as it's also based on bricasti IRs).
> 
> Also with @Dietz post is something I've been thinking about for some time. Do IRs of algorithmic units make sense? Doesn't that take the life out of the algorithmic reverbs?
> (Actually I'm quite happy with the results I get from the free bricasti IRs but GAS tells me I need something else.)


You can get pretty darn close to a perfect “seventh heaven sound” of a bricasti by using the freely available Bricasti IRs, but you will need to set it up just a little differently. Essentially you will wind up with several instances of IR1 with the same IR loaded, but one will control early reflections, one will control the tail, another may have a mod like a chorus on the tail with perhaps an adjusted decay time, then blend them together at the same settings that the Seventh Heaven preset is modeled at per their manual. They are so close. You are essentially reverse engineering the technique that liquidsonics used to create Seventh Heaven (though they do have a larger, more intricately sampled Bricasti IR sample set for their use which basically samples all of the available combinations of settings rather than just a setting and then stretching the IR length to accommodate other settings).


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

I just got the $69 Seventh Heaven and it is immediately my favorite for getting things into (the same) natural-sounding space. Convos like IR-1 and Spaces (1), and algos like Valhalla Room and EaReverb2 all had issues—or, rather, I had issues with all of them. (I'd be happy to elaborate if anyone wishes, but since they are all good reverbs I hesitate to be too strongly against them unless the context is really specific).

None of those issues happened with Seventh Heaven. It was plug'n'chug, baby!


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Oct 5, 2020)

kmaster said:


> None of those issues happened with Seventh Heaven. It was plug'n'chug, baby!


Its the sound, ease of use and nice gui for me. Dont think i will need anything else in 
terms of reverb for a long time.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 5, 2020)

kmaster said:


> I just got the $69 Seventh Heaven and it is immediately my favorite for getting things into (the same) natural-sounding space. Convos like IR-1 and Spaces (1), and algos like Valhalla Room and EaReverb2 all had issues—or, rather, I had issues with all of them. (I'd be happy to elaborate if anyone wishes, but since they are all good reverbs I hesitate to be too strongly against them unless the context is really specific).
> 
> None of those issues happened with Seventh Heaven. It was plug'n'chug, baby!


Sounds familiar. It has worked out like that for me too. 7H Core. Sandor’s Hall. Perfect for orchestral stuff. Always works.


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## doctoremmet (Oct 5, 2020)

That being said, I’ve spent the entire day tracking with my new new thing: Denise Perfect Plate XL. A terrific plate.


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## FlyingAndi (Oct 5, 2020)

storyteller said:


> You can get pretty darn close to a perfect “seventh heaven sound” of a bricasti by using the freely available Bricasti IRs, but you will need to set it up just a little differently. Essentially you will wind up with several instances of IR1 with the same IR loaded, but one will control early reflections, one will control the tail, another may have a mod like a chorus on the tail with perhaps an adjusted decay time, then blend them together at the same settings that the Seventh Heaven preset is modeled at per their manual. They are so close. You are essentially reverse engineering the technique that liquidsonics used to create Seventh Heaven (though they do have a larger, more intricately sampled Bricasti IR sample set for their use which basically samples all of the available combinations of settings rather than just a setting and then stretching the IR length to accommodate other settings).


Thanks for the good explanation. Actually that would be too much effort for me. In the case the additional comofort of 7H is probably worth the money.


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## Kent (Oct 5, 2020)

FlyingAndi said:


> Thanks for the good explanation. Actually that would be too much effort for me. In the case the additional comofort of 7H is probably worth the money.


I will say that I've used Bricasti IRs in Space Designer (which is pretty neutral and powerful and easy to use) and I still much, much prefer 7H.


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## merty (Oct 5, 2020)

There was an inside forum (not vi-control) competition years ago, the M7 was released and first ir's appeared. The unit was so expensive arguments arise as since we had the ir's, did we still need the hardware...A well know engineer, among one of the first to buy the hardware posted a drums example and asked folks to replicate the reverb with their M7 ir's.

The ir's simply didn't get close, few including me tried algo reverbs and some were really close. At the time I used a reverb called vari-verb, which was included in Samplitude and got good results. Funny thing is its a very "characterless" reverb and even I wasn't expecting such results from it 

Point is you have the time and experience algo reverbs can go a really long way. But this doesn't mean IR reverb's work so much faster, I'm not really into ir reverb's but if I'd get one today would take me a while to learn and get the best out the library (usually very extensive) they provide.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 6, 2020)

Relab and Exponential reverbs - and now Neoverb - do a good job of avoiding mud.

Before buying Seventh Heaven, try them out. I have my eye/ear on VSR S24 - sounds so much better than Liquidsonics anything... to me.

Also, PastToFuture makes IRs and will likely have a BF sale of everything. You can load them in the free Convology or whatnot or other IR loader reverb.


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## vitocorleone123 (Oct 13, 2020)

Have to admit I might pick up the new Liquidsonics Reverberate 3 for IRs - but am waiting to see if they have a BF sale (it's not like I NEED another reverb now now now).


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