# Introducing Composer Cloud from EastWest!



## EastWest Lurker (Apr 13, 2015)

http://www.soundsonline.com/composerclo ... yasher.com


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## Maestro77 (Apr 13, 2015)

I knew someone would eventually start doing this.


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## RiffWraith (Apr 13, 2015)

Hey - I want to know who the cellist is.... she it *CUTE*!!!!


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## 5Lives (Apr 13, 2015)

This is awesome! And a great way to test PLAY instruments on your machine.


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## Conor (Apr 13, 2015)

Yup, it's finally happening... 

Where is the specific list of included products?


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## NYC Composer (Apr 13, 2015)

Simply....brilliant.

I own too many to be particularly interesting, but EW just continues to market astoundingly well. I wish their libraries were "living" libraries, but they're not...still, simply amazing how they manage to repackage and repurpose.


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## stonzthro (Apr 13, 2015)

Interesting. 

I purchased a sample library on the promise that there would be several "planned" updates for free and they have been very late and not nearly as useful as the marketing made it out to be - more like filler to meet the promise (not talking about Project SAM or Spitfire here - they're awesome); a promise of future samples is a REALLY tough sale for me at this point.

The other weird part of this is to think how many old samples I have in my template - some are at least 10 years old and are still great. Kinda makes the cloud idea seem expensive if you think about it like that.

That said, if I didn't already have tons of samples from other companies (that I own), this might be tempting...


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## lachrimae (Apr 13, 2015)

I believe Slate will offer a rent to own feature where monthly payments accrue and can be used to purchase full ownership of products. Is that on offer with EW?


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## reddognoyz (Apr 13, 2015)

Very interesting. I just bought the platinum Hollywood orchestra, and have purchased(eventually) everything I found interesting that EW has made over the last decade or so. I would absolutely consider it if there was an influx of new instruments.


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## stevinn (Apr 13, 2015)

Reasons I will never buy into this:

1. Play engine. 
2. "Activation Fee". Translation: "Our customers are so stupid we can make up any reason to charge them money" fee.
3. Play engine.
4. 2 Years from now, I decide I don't like it, quit, can't run any of my old sessions now cause I don't own the libraries.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 13, 2015)

stevinn @ Tue 14 Apr said:


> Reasons I will never buy into this:
> *4. 2 Years from now, I decide I don't like it, quit, can't run any of my old sessions now cause I don't own the libraries.*


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 13, 2015)

Note btw, this is early access only available to current customers and it is an option, no one is forced to do it.


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## Guido Negraszus (Apr 13, 2015)

I would say that this is a terrific idea. However, I can't quite see the advantage for someone like me who owns most of the libraries or do I miss something?


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## Guido Negraszus (Apr 13, 2015)

Something else to those "Play" and "iLok" haters. Get over it, its 2015. Do you really have to bring this up in every EW post?


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## Chris Hurst (Apr 13, 2015)

Now this is interesting. As I'm in the process of getting my libraries to where I want them to be, I am spending way more than the annual fee a month at the minute...


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 13, 2015)

Guido Negraszus @ Tue 14 Apr said:


> Something else to those "Play" and "iLok" haters. Get over it, its 2015. Do you really have to bring this up in every EW post?



exactly. It's 2015. Why are dongles even still a thing?


OT: I think the idea could be cool but only if there were always a choice between a subscription and out right purchasing the product.


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## Stradibaldi (Apr 13, 2015)

I've officially progressed to the_ "Dammit, now everyone and their kid sister will own these instruments!"_ phase of sample library ownership.

But seriously, what's going on at EastWest? First that amazing value for the Hollywood bundle and now this.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Apr 13, 2015)

It's not the instruments that make the composer


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## Stradibaldi (Apr 13, 2015)

Indeed, instead of grousing I should toast the wonderful force of competition o-[][]-o 

Both for sample library companies, and composers!


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## MA-Simon (Apr 13, 2015)

I am a little unclear on the wording.
What exactly does Annually, Monthly mean?

- Paid each month for one year
Ore - You can rent for a single month if you want to?

Normally good with english but I though I better clear that up before testing.
Because testing is what I would like to do.


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## mc_deli (Apr 13, 2015)

Subscription based software // SaaS // tends to be terrible for the user.

Office 365 is a great example.

This model offers no benefits for composers as far as I can see. The only benefit is for EW, who will take 50 bucks a month off the wealthiest composers, who already own many of their libs, and who know no better.

Working on improving their best existing libs and the efficiency of the Play engine would be a better way to bring more people to EW IMHO, but that probably loses in the cost/benefit analysis internally.

I don't want access to everything, I would never use it.

The real cost of EW libs includes hard drive space, processor power and ram.

I am not at all convinced by this or the Slate offer. By the way, my day job is in SaaS


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## Pietro (Apr 13, 2015)

I think it's a smart move. Not only for testing PLAY (which has been working properly over here for years!) and new instruments, but also for cheap access to good stuff you might need this year for a project, but not anymore.

And a natural cheapass question - can I buy the yearly plan and cancel after a month? And then do it again after 2 months? Sorry, someone had to ask this :D.

Do we get a discount when upgrading to full license?

I don't have to return to old projects very often, so I don't mind if I lose license to some stuff. And if I really need it, I will just buy subscription again, whenever I have to.

- Piotr


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## Lex (Apr 14, 2015)

Very interesting.....

alex


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 14, 2015)

One detail also left unclear for me:

In the simpler, 7 products plan - does it become 8 simultaneous products after 3 months, then 9, after another 3 months etc.

OR, will it be locked to 7 simultaneous products, but add choices of titles as they get released?

Overall this plan looks great for someone like me, who has lots of EW stuff, hates his own impulsive buys (but could use that service later this year) and has at least 5-6 EW titles on the wanted list. 

It would be nice though, with the actual product list confirmed, and the "activation fee" mentioned in more straightforward way, cause if not mentioned here in the thread, I would totally missed that one! Not nice. Does it actually make the first payment 60$? Will EW charge it once again if someone changes plans? 

Hope Jay chimes in with more details.


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## Hannes_F (Apr 14, 2015)

Marketing-wise that page is genius.


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## Stephen Baysted (Apr 14, 2015)

Seems like very good value especially for new entrants.


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 14, 2015)

This is the beginning of the end.

They are going the Adobe/MS/etc-etc way. Now you can't use a product - a SAMPLE LIBRARY - without being connected to the internet ever so often. It will mean no more updates to tradtionally installed libraries. I think this will hurt a lot of customers, obviously Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard won't be affected by this.

I think subscription software is a bad, bad thing. It only serves the purpose of the developer, never the customer.

Anyway, I hope no other sample developers go the same route, and that EastWest's "brilliant marketing" don't get the "brilliant idea" of sometime in a future PLAY update rendering all your traditional sample libraries unusable. I am however pretty certain that this will happen in a few years. Right now it's all about luring people onto this "cool" new feature with a gazillion "inexpensive" samples etc., and SLAM - you're caught in this forever.

I believe the people who see this as an advantage are being way too naive - this is ONLY for EW to make more money, it is not to help you or anyone else in any way, and I think it will be a big blow for hobbyists, small time composers and even full time composers who just don't make a lot of money doing their job. People who only bought the products they needed, and mostly on sale.

But as already mentioned: If EastWest are the only ones doing this, so be it, and thankfully there are other developers out there. But if Spitfire and the likes follow suit, the future of sample libraries looks pretty grim.


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 14, 2015)

I disagree with most, Simon:

1) I assume its clear for those who know EW for some time, that this new move is merely a new way to sell licences. Would they create a new software platform - we would see it no sooner than Mars gets habitable, or at least that poor Russian fellow gets his head properly transplanted. 
In my eyes, its just a different way to manage your iLok, running the same piece of software.

2) Who gets the better deal? Its seems like a double edge sword for me. You might indeed pay some serious amount of money over the years, without actually owning anything. But in other case, you might get caught by another line of products 1.5 years later, and left with 400-500 damage in your wallet instead of the initial 1000 same CCC would cost - with no resale option!

Of course I hope there will be a discounted way to purchase the titles you want for goods, so this will even more balance out the equation.


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## Guy Rowland (Apr 14, 2015)

Of course primarily this is more genius marketing from the most savvy marketeers in our business - they keep aggressively getting new revenue from their old products.

But despite their talk that some new products will be cloud-exclusive, personally I think its a conspiracy too far to say that we won't be able to use our existing products at some future point after an update. I can imagine a different version of Play with extra features that won't be compatible with old libraries, but there would always been a regular version. I've always bought East West with caveat emptor - assume there will be no further updates to either the library or the software, is it still worth it to me? If yes, buy, if no, don't. Don't think this will change that philosophy.

Will it herald a new subs era generally? I don't readily see how Kontakt-based libraries could offer subs options, but perhaps it wouldn't be the biggest surprise in the world if this wasn't a feature of Kontakt 6 somehow. It does seem that this is the way the world is turning. Personally I don't like it much, but as long as it remains just an option I'm not much bothered.

The best application for me would be if I just needed something specific or esoteric for one thing, then I could rent and render for a month. The system would need to be fast and reliable for that to be attractive, but my experience of download speeds from EW has been excellent to date.


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## Rasmus Hartvig (Apr 14, 2015)

I agree that THE crucial point is whether this remains only an option, or if it's the beginning of a transition into subscription only.

The way Adobe runs Creative Cloud is a prime example of how horribly sucky subscription-only software is. 

I do believe - however naïve it may be - that something like this, with an upgrade path to "ownership", could be done right. Do I believe that East West is the kind of company to do it right? Not likely.


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## lucky909091 (Apr 14, 2015)

I agree to you, Guy.

If you need something special for an actual project you can rent for just one month, play the sounds you need and render them to WAV.

Then resign the subscription until you need it again.


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## Tatu (Apr 14, 2015)

Well, someone from the big names had to be the first to do this. Thumbs up to EW.


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 14, 2015)

lucky909091 @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> I agree to you, Guy.
> 
> If you need something special for an actual project you can rent for just one month, play the sounds you need and render them to WAV.
> 
> Then resign the subscription until you need it again.



Again, the "activation fee" seems like a measure to discourage short term rentals on and off. I wonder if they would introduce some kind of "freeze" option to use twice a year at least for needed periods.


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## Stiltzkin (Apr 14, 2015)

Fuck it, I've been on the fence about east west for so long and I spent well over 500 a month on new software. This will cost a maximum of 200 euro to test for a month (since 50% of the remaining year cancellation fee applies) it's well worth it to be able to try out SO many products.

I only wish diamond was an option rather than gold... Perhaps down the line it will be ^^


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## Stephen Baysted (Apr 14, 2015)

I should say that although I have HS diamond, HB gold and a fair few other EW libraries the only EW product I use now is QL Spaces, so this is not going to affect me any time soon. I do think for someone new to the market, it's a good way to get started without huge initial investment. This move might even dissuade some from using pirate copies (well one can hope).


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 14, 2015)

Stiltzkin @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Fuck it, I've been on the fence about east west for so long and I spent well over 500 a month on new software. This will cost a maximum of 200 euro to test for a month (since 50% of the remaining year cancellation fee applies) it's well worth it to be able to try out SO many products.



You got me a bit worried with your cancellation reference! Could you provide the source?

This I got from Terms they linked to on the page:

9.1 Termination by You. You may stop using the Services at any time. Termination of your account does not relieve you of any obligation to pay any outstanding fees.

???

Or do you intent to pay all year in advance? There is a monthly payment though.


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## adam_lukas (Apr 14, 2015)

Let's do the math:

The libraries (all together) cost 11000$.
The new model costs 50$/month, which means:

11000/50 = 220
220/12 = 18,33333333333333

So after 18 years of subscription it's the same price as if you would just buy them all. (Math was never my thing, I hope this is right)
The difference is: When buying them the conventional way, you OWN them - forever. Otherwise with the subscription model..

Will new libraries automatically be available for cloud subscribers? I'd like to know that.

I do own a lot of EW libraries already. So I, personally, will not get anything out of this deal. I guess?

Have a nice day folks.


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## Nuno (Apr 14, 2015)

Vlzmusic @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Stiltzkin @ Tue Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Fuck it, I've been on the fence about east west for so long and I spent well over 500 a month on new software. This will cost a maximum of 200 euro to test for a month (since 50% of the remaining year cancellation fee applies) it's well worth it to be able to try out SO many products.
> ...



If you click on BUY NOW (for early access) it is written

"Cancellation

If you cancel before the end of your one year term, you will be billed 50% of your remaining contract obligation. If you need to cancel, just email [email protected]."


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## Tatu (Apr 14, 2015)

Is that 11k based on list prizes, or the ever going 50-70% off sale prizes?


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 14, 2015)

Thanks a lot, Nuno!

It does shift the picture a lot, in my view.


adam_lukas,

You did your best to convince me - math is not your thing  Check the GOLD CCC page, with all the options added (though I guess few will really need them all) and see how this 11000$ figure evaporates


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## sin(x) (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm all for more options, but the cynic in me suspects this being the early roadwork towards coercing customers into a lifelong subscription-only model, Adobe or Autodesk style, which is a malicious growth on the rear end of the software industry which I'm praying to never have to deal with in the audio world.

I hope I'm wrong. I'll say that as long as the purchase option stays on the table, it'll be handy for testing. But annual plans and loyalty rewards for long-time subscribers don't sound like it's about testing in the long run.


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## gsilbers (Apr 14, 2015)

sin(x) @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> I'm all for more options, but the cynic in me suspects this being the early roadwork towards coercing customers into a lifelong subscription-only model, Adobe or Autodesk style, which is a malicious growth on the rear end of the software industry which I'm praying to never have to deal with in the audio world.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong. I'll say that as long as the purchase option stays on the table, it'll be handy for testing. But annual plans and loyalty rewards for long-time subscribers don't sound like it's about testing in the long run.



bingo!


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## gsilbers (Apr 14, 2015)

Tatu @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Is that 11k based on list prizes, or the ever going 50-70% off sale prizes?



yep.. if we go buy the REAL prices. not the prices of yesterday but the prices these go for real, about $200 per product... then it might work out for a while then its pure profit.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 14, 2015)

I see a lot of bouncing in our future.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

Once again, guys, you can still buy EW products and licenses the way you always have. Nothing has been taken away, only an "instant download without iLok requirement" has been added.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Apr 14, 2015)

And if this take$ off? 

It's surely not the person who buys a pound of crack that makes the pusher the most money, right? :wink:


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> And if this take$ off?



Your guess is as good as mine.


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## jcs88 (Apr 14, 2015)

Can't say I'm a huge fan of subscriptions. I often use a job payment/bonus/tax return to reward myself with some sample packs. Once I have ticking monthly payments to Adobe, EastWest, Sibelius etc etc it might feel a little heavier than dumping the money and owning it. 
Obviously just a budgeting thing, but still.

I'm desperately looking for my old EW printed invoice with all my serial numbers on. Wish I could pay a little to download all my EW products and get my keys emailed to me.


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## José Herring (Apr 14, 2015)

I think it could be a good thing. Not a question of whether you are for or against but rather can you use it. 

There are plenty of EW libraries that I don't have just because it doesn't reach my must have list. But, this way I can have access to them all and use them when I need them.

As for not being able to work on projects after you let the subscription go, that's why you bounce your tracks and archive.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

The 50 products included in Composer Cloud are:
The Dark Side
Fab Four
Ghostwriter
Goliath
Gypsy
Hollywood Strings Gold
Hollywood Brass Gold
Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds Gold
Hollywood Orchestral Percussion Gold
Ministry Of Rock 1
Ministry Of Rock 2
Silk
Symphonic Choirs Gold
Symphonic Orchestra Gold Strings
Symphonic Orchestra Gold Brass
Symphonic Orchestra Gold Woodwinds
Symphonic Orchestra Gold Percussion
Pianos Gold Bechstein D-280
Pianos Gold Bosendorfer 290
Pianos Gold Steinway D
Pianos Gold Yamaha C7
ProDrummer Spike Stent (April 23)
ProDrummer Joe Chiccarelli (April 23)
Ra
Solo Violin
Spaces (coming in May)
Stormdrum 2 Pro
Stormdrum 3
Voices of Passion
56’ Stratocaster
Adrenaline
BT Breakz
BT Twisted Textures
Drum n Bass
Electronica
Funky Ass Loops
Guitar & Bass
Hypnotica
Ill Jointz
Joey Kramer Drums
Percussion adventures 1
Percussion adventures 2
Phat & Phunky
Public Enemy
Scoring Tools
Smoov Grooves
Steve Stevens Guitar
Stormdrum 1 Loops
Stormdrum 1 MuItiSamples
Symphonic Adventures


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## lpuser (Apr 14, 2015)

adam_lukas @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> So after 18 years of subscription it's the same price as if you would just buy them all. (Math was never my thing, I hope this is right)



The only problem here is that subscription pricing will go up at one point in time. We have seen this for basically all subscription based software in the past.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

lpuser @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> adam_lukas @ Tue Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> > So after 18 years of subscription it's the same price as if you would just buy them all. (Math was never my thing, I hope this is right)
> ...



But if it gives you access to great new products that would be expensive to buy in the traditional way, that might not be unfair, correct? Not saying that will happen, just speaking hypothetically.


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## sin(x) (Apr 14, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ 2015-04-14 said:


> But if it gives you access to great new products that would be expensive to buy in the traditional way, that might not be unfair, correct? Not saying that will happen, just speaking hypothetically.



It would be if you don't give customers a way to opt out of paying for access to products they have no use for.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

sin(x) @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ 2015-04-14 said:
> 
> 
> > But if it gives you access to great new products that would be expensive to buy in the traditional way, that might not be unfair, correct? Not saying that will happen, just speaking hypothetically.
> ...



Once again, no users have lost the ability to do business withEW the way they always have. It is just another option.

As or the future, I have no crystal ball.


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## sin(x) (Apr 14, 2015)

Hey, you just asked if it was hypothetically unfair if you roped someone into a subscription, then raised the price.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

sin(x) @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Hey, you just asked if it was hypothetically unfair if you roped someone into a subscription, then raised the price.



I think "roped" is an emotionally loaded word that is not fair. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything and we are not children.


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## 5Lives (Apr 14, 2015)

So there is an activation fee and a cancellation fee if you cancel before 1 year? If that's true, I retract my previous statement that this is a good way to see if PLAY works well on your system. Not sure it is really that valuable at all in fact...


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

5Lives @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> So there is an activation fee and a cancellation fee if you cancel before 1 year? If that's true, I retract my previous statement that this is a good way to see if PLAY works well on your system. Not sure it is really that valuable at all in fact...



Yes, you are in fact agreeing to 1 year.


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## kdm (Apr 14, 2015)

Simon Ravn @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> I think subscription software is a bad, bad thing. It only serves the purpose of the developer, never the customer.



Completely agree. Not one subscription software produce I own is on track to pay for itself. Subscriptions are about keeping revenue streams going when new product or upgrade options have run their course for a company. Maybe this is not the case for EW, but it certainly seems likely to be the motivating factor for Adobe, MS, and Avid. 

And then there is the realization that with cloud based products one's career now sits on someone else's server over a mostly unpredictable data connection, neither of which comes with a 100% absolute guarantee to be available when a deadline looms and there is no, zero, zilch room for downtime or delays.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

BTW, a guy on Gearslutz just wrote: "At first I wasn't very excited about this news because I prefer to own stuff outright but after some reflection this is getting tempting. For $360 a year I can get access to all the EW instruments I have yet to buy (which would be SD3, HOP, Ghostwriter, Silk and Pianos to name a few on my list) AND anything new EW releases in the next year? That's a deal! I am pretty sure I have at least spent that much each year and most years much more on EW products. The only downside I could ever see is if EW suddenly stopped releasing new stuff but I suspect that will not happen."

I think that is a good way to look at it.


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## Guffy (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm a bit worried as to what their plan is regarding piracy. Without the iLok, won't it be alot more vulnerable to pirates?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

Fugdup @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> I'm a bit worried as to what their plan is regarding piracy. Without the iLok, won't it be alot more vulnerable to pirates?



Not unless they hack the Composer Cloud


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## Marius Masalar (Apr 14, 2015)

I’m perfectly fine with subscription software, but I don’t think this is a particularly good offering. I say this in comparison to the current pioneer in bringing SaaS to the audio world: Slate.

Here’s what bothers me:

The subscription is a yearly commitment, whether you pay yearly or not. It’s the same model as subsidized phone plans where you get a phone cheaper up front but are locked into a “plan”. 

Slate is strictly month to month, no actual commitment.

From that, it follows that cancellation is not painless for this EW model…from the terms: “If you cancel before the end of your one year term, you will be billed 50% of your remaining contract obligation.” Not only that, but there’s an activation fee too.

This means that there’s no easy way to jump in/out of the service like there is with Slate, which makes the whole “we’re giving you more flexibility!” argument kind of shaky. It’s heavily supporting the stereotype of SaaS being good only for the business (which is NOT always true, but is in this case). EW secures predictable income, but it’s not giving enough in return.

On the one hand, yes you now just have an additional option for how to use the products—no problems there—but the new option isn’t as friendly, for lack of a better term, than Slate’s. If you want to position subscription access as a good thing, your offering has to be exceptionally friendly to counter-act the knee-jerk “ermagerd subscriptionz suck” mentality.

Some things you can’t get around: periodic online license verification, sessions not working if you’re no longer subscribed, etc. So you have to balance that with a very strong set of incentives, and I don’t think EW has managed this.

To me it seems as though they’re banking on sheer weight of library content to carry their value proposition, whereas that’s not a very compelling argument on its own. There’s so much additional stuff they could have done here…true month-to-month subscriptions with no sign-up fee or cancellation penalties, access to installations on multiple machines, etc. etc.

Again, contrast this with Slate's offering, where being on the subscription earns you credit that you can spend on buying traditional licenses for their stuff. So you could spend a few months on the plan, explore the products, and then decide you only use 2 and be able to cancel your plan and not only not be charged, but be GIVEN money that you can use to help pay for normal licenses for those two products. That's value.

Here’s what I’d like to see:

- Keep the current yearly plan, reduce the current price, and from that baseline deduct a percentage per existing traditional product license in my account (otherwise it’s hard to justify as someone who owns lots of EW products already). These yearly plans should also include more, like multiple machine activations
- Add in a true month-to-month option at a slightly higher price but with no long-term commitment or stupid fees. That way I can, say, get a project that requires Ministry of Rock and jump on board for the two months that project is active, then drop off seamlessly if I never need to use Ministry of Rock again.

All that being said, I wish them the best of luck with the venture. There’s a lot of questionably-justified ire against SaaS to overcome, and I believe they can do it. But their offering needs to develop into something more compelling than what we’ve seen so far.

I’ll be keeping an eager eye on it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

1. Are products are in many cases WAY more expensive than Steven's if you bought them outright.

2. We are not competing with Steven.

3, No more iLok for those who don't want iLok. Is there not value to that?


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## sin(x) (Apr 14, 2015)

Jay, you outlined a hypothetical scenario. Developer X tells me I can use their libraries by subscribing for $20 a month, in a year they add a new product and raise the price to $30 a month on the occasion. I happen to have no interest in that new product, but now I'll either have to grudgingly pay an extra $10 in order to keep being able to work on that gig I'm working on (and be able to open projects that are just a couple months old), or bite the bullet and pay the full purchase price for the products I am using after all, casting the $240 I've already invested into the wind. In both cases, I've gained nothing except that I can continue using my software. Yeah, that strictly hypothetical scenario deserves a few emotionally loaded words in my books. There's a reason I wish software subscription models a fiery death.

But as said, as long as they're optional and users aren't aggressively steered away from the for-purchase options, I'll go with “it's not for me”.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

sin(x) @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Jay, you outlined a hypothetical scenario. Developer X tells me I can use their libraries by subscribing for $20 a month, in a year they add a new product and raise the price to $30 a month on the occasion. I happen to have no interest in that new product, but now I'll either have to grudgingly pay an extra $10 in order to keep being able to work on that gig I'm working on (and be able to open projects that are just a couple months old), or bite the bullet and pay the full purchase price for the products I am using after all, casting the $240 I've already invested into the wind. In both cases, I've gained nothing except that I can continue using my software. Yeah, that strictly hypothetical scenario deserves a few emotionally loaded words in my books. There's a reason I wish software subscription models a fiery death.
> 
> But as said, as long as they're optional and users aren't aggressively steered away from the for-purchase options, I'll go with “it's not for me”.



I totally understand and respect that, just asI understood and respected the "no iLok" folks. Nothing is for everybody.


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## Marius Masalar (Apr 14, 2015)

Jay, I'm not comparing to Steven's offering in terms of sheer cost or product offering—this is a bigger catalogue and a different kind of product. The raw costs or products are not the point.

I'm comparing only from the perspective of how he's structured his value proposition for subscribing versus buying a traditional license. I feel like he's more effectively offset the downsides of subscription software by making the upsides very strong and offering true flexibility, which is one of the main upsides of subscribing.

As for iLok, unless I've misunderstood aren't they just using the standard iLok machine license as an option? So you can either host the license on a key or on the computer itself? If so I don't really see that as a point in the subscription service's favour as I'd expect them to offer that to traditional license owners as well. There's no reason not to—it's part of the iLok system now and is becoming expected for newer releases using that protection.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

Marius Masalar @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Jay, I'm not comparing to Steven's offering in terms of sheer cost or product offering—this is a bigger catalogue and a different kind of product. The raw costs or products are not the point.
> 
> I'm comparing only from the perspective of how he's structured his value proposition for subscribing versus buying a traditional license. I feel like he's more effectively offset the downsides of subscription software by making the upsides very strong and offering true flexibility, which is one of the main upsides of subscribing.
> 
> As for iLok, unless I've misunderstood aren't they just using the standard iLok machine license as an option? So you can either host the license on a key or on the computer itself? If so I don't really see that as a point in the subscription service's favour as I'd expect them to offer that to traditional license owners as well. There's no reason not to—it's part of the iLok system now and is becoming expected for newer releases using that protection.



He does indeed but since his products are so much less expensive, his risk is much less than EW's.

Either way, that is not the route EW has chosen.

And AFAIK no, the Composer Cloud license is not iLok based i


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## Marius Masalar (Apr 14, 2015)

Oh okay that makes more sense then. Strange that they'd go with a different system when the existing one allows for the same functionality, but I trust there was a good reason for it.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

Marius Masalar @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Oh okay that makes more sense then. Strange that they'd go with a different system when the existing one allows for the same functionality, but I trust there was a good reason for it.



My guess, and it is only a guess, that like the change from Kontakt to Play this is at least partly about EW controlling its own destiny.


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## Marius Masalar (Apr 14, 2015)

I can see that being the case. Even from a strictly marketing perspective, being disassociated from the "iLok" brand could be a factor. Same idea of avoiding knee-jerk reactions.


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## Piotrek K. (Apr 14, 2015)

> No more iLok for those who don't want iLok. Is there not value to that?



Does this apply also when I want to buy a library?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

Piotrek K. @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> > No more iLok for those who don't want iLok. Is there not value to that?
> 
> 
> 
> Does this apply also when I want to buy a library?



No. only if you use the Composer Cloud.


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## reddognoyz (Apr 14, 2015)

I think if you were starting for scratch or near to it, this would make sense. I own all the libraries I'm interested in from EW, which is a lot of them. I think the list has a few items on there that are approaching 20+ years old. An ongoing influx of new material would have me very interested


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## Stradibaldi (Apr 14, 2015)

To the many people who are cynical about this move - thinking it's greedy, exploitative, first step towards making all of EW subscription-based, etc -

Have you considered this may be desperation not greed? I mean, charging a mere $30 for a one-month trial of all EastWest products (which is what I think this mainly is) - that's an unbeatable, fire-sale, bargain-basement price.

And it comes on the heels of another bundle sale. Maybe EW isn't doing so great.

When you think about it the business model for every sample developer is a huge up front investment and then a scramble to find buyers... at lower and lower prices... maybe this is EW's attempt to really throw the door open to anyone and everyone who owns a DAW and has ever considered getting into orchestral mockups.



Guy Rowland @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> I don't readily see how Kontakt-based libraries could offer subs options, but perhaps it wouldn't be the biggest surprise in the world if this wasn't a feature of Kontakt 6 somehow.



I read a conspiracy theory recently about professional software companies that completely dominate a field (e.g. AutoDesk, Photoshop). The theory said the companies became dominant by secretly proliferating highly-usable pirate versions of their software. Students and entry-level users begin their careers with the software and never look back; eventually they become the professionals and enterprise users who pay the expensive license fees / subscriptions for the whole system to keep going.

If Kontakt became subscription software, the hobbyist user base would evaporate, which means 3rd party developers would move shop. And who uses Kontakt primarily for NI's first-party samples? :lol:

I think NI are wiser than to kill their golden goose this way.


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## Stradibaldi (Apr 14, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> 5Lives @ Tue Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> > So there is an activation fee and a cancellation fee if you cancel before 1 year? If that's true, I retract my previous statement that this is a good way to see if PLAY works well on your system. Not sure it is really that valuable at all in fact...
> ...



Oh, so you can't do a month-to-month subscription? :( 

So really the price is $360 to have a full year's access to the entire EW catalog. That's a lot less tempting.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

Stradibaldi, EW is far from desperate. In their minds it is simply positioning itself for a competitive future of their own design.

And yes, you are subscribing for a year with the option of either paying monthly or paying annually.


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 14, 2015)

There are very few companies in this business that I would trust enough to subscribe for a *12 month contract!*, less than a handful, and EW is not on this list as far as I am concerned.

Not for me folks.

Good Luck.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> There are very few companies in this business that I would trust enough to subscribe for a *12 month contract!*, less than a handful and EW is no on this list as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Not for me folks.
> 
> Good Luck.



That's OK, I don't trust you either 

Just a joke, folks.


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 14, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> G.R. Baumann @ Tue Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> > There are very few companies in this business that I would trust enough to subscribe for a *12 month contract!*, less than a handful and EW is no on this list as far as I am concerned.
> ...



I wasn't joking! :lol:


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## passenger57 (Apr 14, 2015)

Not a fan of subscriptions. But I'm happy as long as I can still buy an EW product and be done with it. That and still get upgrades. 

I purchased Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 years ago... think about how many updates they have released for free since then.


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## Mystic (Apr 14, 2015)

I'm really not sold on the idea of sound libraries going subscription model. If nothing else, it opens up a new way for people to jack up their prices higher than they would be otherwise.

1) Does this mean EW will be less likely to put out those 70%-80% deals we've been seeing lately to buy a whole library while trying to push people onto the subscription model instead?

2) Will people who buy the programs outright be getting the same updates and such as those on subscription or will this become one of those "if you want support, pay the fee" models?

3) Will people who buy the programs have the same access to download the files as those on the subscription model? Such as, if my HDD crashes, obviously EW now offers the libraries to be downloaded. Will everyone have access to those downloads? (afaik, the only ones I've not seen offered as download since the last time I checked were some of the HW Diamond series).

4) The Cancellation Fee is rubbish. Plain and simple. It's right in line with those Gym Memberships for how much I despise them. I get it; you don't want someone to use it for a couple months to do a project than cancel on you. That's the nature of the beast with subscriptions but I don't feel like punishing people who might be having money issues is a way to do business which those are usually the ones who end up bailing the most.

IMO, Cakewalk has done the membership thing best but I can see how it's not really feasible for EW considering how much a lot of the libraries cost. If there were a way to pay monthly till you own for selected libraries, that would be much better, but then they also wouldn't be able to likely get the discounts offered so it would also be silly for the person buying.

Me personally, I buy them outright because I don't like subscriptions. That said, if EW stops with the deals, I likely won't be buying anymore so I hope that's not the case.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> > G.R. Baumann @ Tue Apr 14 said:
> ...



Tell you what, give me your address and I will mail you a quarter so that you can call somebody who cares :mrgreen:


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## stonzthro (Apr 14, 2015)

You can call me - i'd listen


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## Jordan Gagne (Apr 14, 2015)

Would be a nightmare to open old sessions if you're no longer a subscriber.


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## CDNmusic (Apr 14, 2015)

Bounce them to audio, resubscribe or buy the library. Resubscribe would be good if there wasn't a 12 month minimum subscription period.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 14, 2015)

CDNmusic @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Bounce them to audio, resubscribe or buy the library. Resubscribe would be good if there wasn't a 12 month minimum subscription period.



OK,, a little perspective for those of you who make money doing this, maybe a different calculus for hobbyists:

1. $360 a year. If you use the libraries for a year at that price, presumably one project more than paid for it, AND you found out which ones you want to keep, if any, and what you do not. Also, if you need to, you write some of it off on your taxes.

2. $30 per month. Honestly, how many of you spend as much or more than that on Starbucks? I am guessing more than a few.


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## MichaelL (Apr 14, 2015)

The thread got boring, so I skipped from page 1 to page 3.

It appears that you download the sounds to your desktop, so the cloud situation does nothing to eliminate or reduce the cpu /computer requirements (other than that gold doesn't have all the mic positions)? 

I already have "virtually," pun intended, all the EW products that I want, except for the the HW series. It seems that I could buy the HW Gold series for close to the cost of a one-year subscription.


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## pmountford (Apr 14, 2015)

I really hope this isn't the way the sampling industry goes - I'm not a fan of the subscription model. Factor in all of the suppliers of sample libraries we use along with DAW/Notation software developers and then this wouldn't be that insignificant a monthly fee that you're locked into..

Maybe it'll work for some, but I'll give it a miss, thanks.


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## kitekrazy (Apr 14, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> CDNmusic @ Tue Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Bounce them to audio, resubscribe or buy the library. Resubscribe would be good if there wasn't a 12 month minimum subscription period.
> ...



This eliminates many hobbyists. As for those of you who spend $30 a month at Starbucks, buy a coffee maker.

This is also an opportunity for selling libraries. Someone may like a library so much they would prefer a license instead of a subscription.


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## MichaelL (Apr 14, 2015)

I have sound libraries from 43 or 44 different developers, another dozen effects / processing developers.

In theory if they all went subscription it could cost me $25,000 per year for the same amount of sounds, etc.

That's potentially a big problem for smaller developers when composers are forced to choose who's going to get their annual subscription budget. I'd have to eliminate 90% of the companies from whom I've bought samples.

On the other hand....developers who don't go subscription could be heroes to their loyal customer base.


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## Daniel James (Apr 14, 2015)

Much respect to EW for this. It needed to be tried, and they have the library to back it up. Now the rest of us sit back and watch with curious eyes 

-DJ


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 14, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Tell you what, give me your address and I will mail you a quarter so that you can call somebody who cares :mrgreen:



Hey Mr. Salesman, go and rehearse your pitch again.


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## kurtvanzo (Apr 14, 2015)

I still run an old MacBook pro because of the photoshop software I own on it. I use it 3 or 4 times a year, but it's crucial- and Adobe cloud killed photoshop for guys like me. The only way to keep companies from going this route is not to buy into it in the first place. If it makes decent money, believe me just like Adobe they will stop selling samples- and that would suck. I'm happy to think I can listen to these when I'm 80 and they will still sound good, even if I have to pay a few hundred now. It's rare that a company will let these systems co-exist for long- they run both for a while to see if people take the bait- then release the exciting news that buying is no longer an option (remember Kontakt versions of EW products?) and whatever price you "rent" samples for, it will double in the years to come. Stay away from rentals or the industry will suffer.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 14, 2015)

I commented on the brilliance of this marketing because to my mind, it does a few things:

1. Gets people to pay an upfront fee and a cancellation fee. Money for nuttin'.
2. Creates a new revenue stream by repackaging existing (some ancient) products for those who don't have a lot of upfront cash. Money for a very small investment.
3. Gives EW a modern look- "oh look, Bobby-it's in The Cloud!!"

Brilliant marketing isn't about whether the model is good for the individual customer or not. It's about creating a new marketing strategy for one's company, investing little and reaping much. 

Having been an overly loyal EW customer for years, there is little on that list I want that I don't already have, so no teeth gnashing dilemma for me :wink:


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## playz123 (Apr 14, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> Brilliant marketing isn't about whether the model is good for the individual customer or not. It's about creating a new marketing strategy



Nail hit firmly on the head once again!  And, as both an Adobe customer and a previous EW customer, all I need add is that this approach is not of interest to me in the least...but that doesn't mean it might not be to someone else. Some may find it intriguing and coast effective, while others have valid reasons (as mentioned in this thread) for avoiding it.


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## StatKsn (Apr 14, 2015)

"Collections previously priced at over $11,000" is a good headline, but isn't it now like $2750 because it's always on a 75% sale  

Hmmm, I'm fine with the idea of subscription. It makes sense for developers. I just need actively maintained products and a good technical support for a service like this. Cloud may be just a re-branded word for a paid trial period if the service is static (the ability to use new products is very nice though).

No thanks for stealthy mentioned activation fee and cancellation fee. I understand the logic for the activation fee and wouldn't mind paying for it, but not including a $50 fee in the price listing doesn't make me a loyal supporter.


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## bosone (Apr 14, 2015)

as an hobbyst, I don't like the idea to pay for one year and then, after this year, "nothing" remains.
OK, i could have made my songs with these samples... but the feeling would be to have wasted money.

I like much more Sonar scheme. after 1 year you keep what you have piad for and you are not forced to spend money again if you don't want.

A suggestion may be that, after 1 year, you can choose at least 1 library to keep at no additional cost. Or to have a discount on the full price of a single library. Or to give the possibility to "rent" even one single library for just one month. I need some choir? OK, let's pay 30-50$, use the choir for 1 month, and then it's over... with no additional costs.

that would make me to reconsider this proposal. otherwise I'll just skip!


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 15, 2015)

NYC Composer @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> I commented on the brilliance of this marketing because to my mind, it does a few things:
> 
> 1. Gets people to pay an upfront fee and a cancellation fee. Money for nuttin'.
> 2. Creates a new revenue stream by repackaging existing (some ancient) products for those who don't have a lot of upfront cash. Money for a very small investment.
> ...



Right, until two-three years from now when you're running a new version of Windows or OS X with a new version of PLAY that only supports this subscription platform.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 15, 2015)

Simon Ravn @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> NYC Composer @ Wed Apr 15 said:
> 
> 
> > I commented on the brilliance of this marketing because to my mind, it does a few things:
> ...



Then I don't use the new version of Play-or if that's the only option to use my paid for product, I'd think it was legally actionable unless they provided me with some paid upgrade option to use my products. I'd hate that, but a bunch of companies did it during the conversion from 32-64 bit and have done it by eventually orphaning products that used older operating systems, so I guess if you want to move on...

(said the man who fiercely clings to 10.68. :wink:


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## John Walker (Apr 15, 2015)

This model is doomed. The Adobe model is rubbish too I agree with all of that. I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole. I would advise anyone to think this through properly and then completely reject it.


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 15, 2015)

John Walker @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> This model is doomed. The Adobe model is rubbish too I agree with all of that. I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole. I would advise anyone to think this through properly and then completely reject it.



I hardly think Adobe are doomed. Whether or not this is doomed depends on how many people get tricked into thinking this is in any way to their advantage. I think that will be a lot, and once you are in, there is no way out. Except boycutting the entire EW product range. I doubt that will happen. But the customer base will be severely smaller, but I am sure the EW accountants have already done the math and concluded that they will still be making more money.


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## John Walker (Apr 15, 2015)

Simon Ravn @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> John Walker @ Wed Apr 15 said:
> 
> 
> > This model is doomed. The Adobe model is rubbish too I agree with all of that. I wouldn't touch this with a barge pole. I would advise anyone to think this through properly and then completely reject it.
> ...



Yeah look/ There are a lot of silly people on the planet we all know that. I wonder if most of them have looked at exchange rates also and factored that?

Adobe's model is doomed, not Adobe. But it's a crap model and hopefully a lot of people will ignore them.


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 15, 2015)

John Walker @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> Simon Ravn @ Wed Apr 15 said:
> 
> 
> > John Walker @ Wed Apr 15 said:
> ...



I circle quite a lot of businesses who have had no choice but to accept entering Adobe's new subscription model. As long as there are no alternatives to Photoshop, After Effects, InDesign etc etc. there is no way around them. EastWest are trying to do the same thing, obviously.


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## John Walker (Apr 15, 2015)

Simon Ravn @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> John Walker @ Wed Apr 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Simon Ravn @ Wed Apr 15 said:
> ...



The trouble with it all Simon is people, especially kids get ripped off all the time on monthly subscriptions. Look at mobile phones. Insurance agents getting renewals for what for example? The only people that benefit here are EW make no mistake about it.
I've worked for some companies that operate along these lines and no one ever benefits from this model except the companies.
As a pure opinion most people wouldn't use 3/4 of this stuff anyway. It just sounds like a good idea. It's a bad idea and I agree with your original premise.


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 15, 2015)

John, if it wasn't clear from my posts (it should be), I am all against this model. I am not favoring it, I am totally against it. As I already wrote several times, this will only benefit EW/Adobe/whoever else employs this kind of business.


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## John Walker (Apr 15, 2015)

Simon Ravn @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> This is the beginning of the end.
> 
> They are going the Adobe/MS/etc-etc way. Now you can't use a product - a SAMPLE LIBRARY - without being connected to the internet ever so often. It will mean no more updates to tradtionally installed libraries. I think this will hurt a lot of customers, obviously Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard won't be affected by this.
> 
> ...



To be clear. Your original premise. I agree.


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## MichaelL (Apr 15, 2015)

G.R. Baumann @ Tue Apr 14 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 14 said:
> 
> 
> > Tell you what, give me your address and I will mail you a quarter so that you can call somebody who cares :mrgreen:
> ...




Actually, I care. I just saved you a quarter Jay. :mrgreen:


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## sin(x) (Apr 15, 2015)

There's not a single graphics artist, 3D animator or VFX person among my circle of acquaintances who says that Adobe and Autodesk moving “into the cloud” did anything but create confusion, uncertainty and frustration for their job. Look around the web for reports of commercial ventures crashing and burning because some Adobe authentication server kicked the bucket and sent a few hundred thousand legitimate copies into meltdown if you want to get a taste of where we're headed. Even if everything works all the time (it won't), good luck implementing proper data archival practices without resigning yourself to a life-long subscription that will cost you 135 times what you'd have paid for a copy.

I hope that when push comes to shove, we as a community have the presence of mind to chase the first company who tries to coax us into mandatory software subscriptions out of town with torches and pitchforks.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 15, 2015)

I think, honestly, that anyone who says "everyone benefits from this kind of model" is not thinking objectively.

I also think, honestly, that anyone who says "nobody benefits from this kind of model" is not thinking objectively.

Either way, you are not forced to use it with EW. It is an OPTION.


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## Jaap (Apr 15, 2015)

I gave it my thought for a few days and I actually like it. For me it gives me much more flexibility and options to work on specific projects and stuff without having to buy all the libraries for the full price.
I bought Ministry of Rock a few years ago purely for one project and hardly used it ever since and EW has a few more libraries that I find interesting, but only from time to time and paying 360 dollar a year to have these libraries at my disposal without having to pay the full price is actually much more attractive.


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## chimuelo (Apr 15, 2015)

What exactly does a current customer mean...?
If you don't own PLAY or EW Instruments you cannot subscribe to the Cloud..?
I've been buying East/West Instrument since they mailed out CDs via Snail Mail.
DO such old purchases constitute a "customer" or is this just PLAY Instruments...?
Still have NickyP's Quantum Leap Brass.

To become a customer must one purchase a PLAY product...?
And what is the cut off price of said purchase to become a member.

Perhaps I didn't read the marketing page closely enough, I love the Harp/Bridge PShop, and definitely am interested, but just not enough info from what I read.

Would love to see the agreements or a link to what someone who is not currently a member can somehow become a member, etc.etc.

Thanks and a great idea.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 15, 2015)

chimuelo @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> What exactly does a current customer mean...?
> If you don't own PLAY or EW Instruments you cannot subscribe to the Cloud..?
> I've been buying East/West Instrument since they mailed out CDs via Snail Mail.
> DO such old purchases constitute a "customer" or is this just PLAY Instruments...?
> ...



It's pretty clear on the page I think. The difference is that if you are an existing customer (log into your account) you get access to all the collections for a year for $29.95 while if you are not, you get access to 7 collections and have to pay $49.95 for access to all of them.


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## José Herring (Apr 15, 2015)

It's actually not a bad idea to have access to those products that I've been on the fence about.

The only thing that I would be a little concerned about is that the prices could go up and that $30/month could be $60/ month next year. But, given the EW history of prices always going down, I'd be willing to give it a shot. and take a risk for a while. It's a bargain even if you have to give it up in the future.


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## Pablocrespo (Apr 15, 2015)

I have a question, if I go for the 7 items (I have a lot of eastwest) can I change the items when the month changes or I have to wait for the year to conclude?


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 15, 2015)

josejherring @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> It's actually not a bad idea to have access to those products that I've been on the fence about.
> 
> The only thing that I would be a little concerned about is that the prices could go up and that $30/month could be $60/ month next year. But, given the EW history of prices always going down, I'd be willing to give it a shot. and take a risk for a while. It's a bargain even if you have to give it up in the future.



This is kind of where I'm at. I haven't purchased an EW product since they left Kontakt, but I still use the Kontakt version of EWQLSO Platinum in almost every project, and I even sometimes still bust out Stormdrum 1. The sub seems like it might be a good way to explore all of the Play libraries I've missed without a lot of up-front cost.

On the other hand, I'm also concerned about a price increase after the first year--$30/mo seems reasonable, $50 or $60 maybe not so much. Also, I think I get why the platinum versions of the Hollywood series aren't in there, but I strongly doubt that I would still be using EWQLSO today if I didn't have the platinum version of that library. The Composer Cloud FAQ mentions the possibility of upgrading to platinum/diamond, but I would like to know up front what that upgrade involves--increased subscription fee? One-time cost to buy a HDD with the platinum/diamond libraries pre-installed?


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## kitekrazy (Apr 15, 2015)

The difference with Adobe is they have one of the popular pieces of software on the planet. Most people have no problem paying $10 a month. For those advanced users having Light Room is a bonus. Unless I'm wrong both products can be had. $10 a month appeal to many instead of forking out $500 for software. 


Comparing a Photoshop subscription with a sample library subscription is like apples and oranges.

As for those who make income from music production I can see them using this model. If you need an instrument from Rare or one of the other specialized libraries you don't have to buy the whole thing.


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## rgames (Apr 15, 2015)

Let's not forget that nearly all professional software outside the music world is licensed on an annual or monthly basis. Adobe and EW are not moving in a new direction - they are simply catching up with the rest of the world.

And let's also not forget, as Jay continues to point out, that the subscription model is an option. If you don't like it then nothing has changed for you. For that reason alone the EW move is much more benevolent to those who don't like the subscription model - Adobe and most other professional softwate companies don't give you a choice.

For existing customers, yes, the new deal doesn't make sense right now. But down the road it might as new products are released.

But here's the fundamental difference between subscription samples and subscription software like Photoshop or After Effects: the Adobe offerings are relatively few products that continually emerge and the subscription gives you access to that evolution. EW will be offering relatively many products that seem not to evolve at all.

rgames


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## CELLINGTON316 (Apr 15, 2015)

I feel that from a existing consumer/consumer who just purchased the software perspective, the idea of "renting out" a product isn't the most attractive. Kind of like the idea of renting a house. You don't own any equity and as soon as you stop paying, you're done. However it gives people who don't have the means to buy that house a chance to live there and an option to buy (if available).

I think from a pure business perspective, these subscription based methods (music, movies, Adobe, now Composers Cloud) are some of the best ways they can continue to be profitable. Technically we as consumers aren't not wired to care whether an artists makes more millions on album sales or whether Adobe is selling their $2500 collection. But as people working in the industries to make money and a living, they care about their bottom line. There's nothing wrong with that as that is the foundation of business that keeps many of us in work. Adobe is looked at as some evil corporation, but don't discount the Joe and Janice who have nothing to do with creating a subscription plan and are just working to make a living and hopefully get some sort of a raise to pay their mortgage. The business has to do well.

In today's climate, pirating, and less expensive software become the competition for these companies. I can't think of anyone who goes out to the store to buy a "music CD" anymore. When pirating became a bigger thing, subscriptions became the way to get some sort of revenue stream.

In this case of EastWest, the positive is that you can STILL buy the products if you have the upfront money. That way it's yours to the end. However for many who DON'T have $400, $800, etc. dollars to spend on one purchase, EastWest has opened the door for them to experience their products and library. Therefore the reach to consumers who may only be able to listen to demos is larger. The average consumer can likely work $49 a month into their budget than part with $800 in a single purchase.

I don't believe the subscription METHOD is any issue. I think it's more about how the company continues to treat their consumers and employees. Those paying subscriptions should get the same care as those who spend lump sums. Those who spend lump sums should not take a back seat in service to those who are on subscriptions.

Lastly, I've always believed that these software subscription models should allow for some sort of discount if you then decide to purchase a piece of software outright. If you're paying $50 a month for 1 year, that's $600 you've paid. Now all of a sudden, you come into some money and want to own the product. You shouldn't then have to pay the $800 full price. I think there should be some sort of credit where a percentage of what you've already paid as a subscriber goes towards purchasing that software. So if the total tag is $800, and you've paid $600 in subscription fees, that percentage could be 50% of what you've paid ($300) to go towards the full purchase (of $800) resulting in a $500 payment. OR if you subscribe for at least 12 months, you get 50% off of product(s). OR Simply allow the consumer to take ownership of the product after paying it in full (plus interest).

I am all for owning your product when you buy it. But buying implies you purchase it for the full price determined by the manufacturer/seller. If that doesn't work for those who cannot fork over the lump sums, then allowing consumers to pay a subscription for use is a great option. Obviously, if they cannot pay monthly anymore it stops for them. That's the idea. You don't own it, so you can only use it as long as you're paying monthly. It at least gives those without the lump sum a chance to experience the product. However, customer service and updates shouldn't be impacted for existing users.


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## Soundhound (Apr 15, 2015)

I thought I'd read that the cost for Early Access customers does indeed go up to $50/month after the first year. But I'm not seeing that on the site today. Anyone else remember seeing that?

Also, I'm wondering how transferring the machine activation from one mac to another would work when I (inevitably) get a new mac?


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## stonzthro (Apr 15, 2015)

Soundhound @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> I thought I'd read that the cost for Early Access customers does indeed go up to $50/month after the first year. But I'm not seeing that on the site today. Anyone else remember seeing that?
> 
> Also, I'm wondering how transferring the machine activation from one mac to another would work when I (inevitably) get a new mac?



I'm pretty sure I saw that too


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 15, 2015)

Well lets hope it is implemented a LOT better than the complete crock of shit that is Adobe Creative Cloud!

Adobe were primarily motivated by defeating piracy of their software by going the Creative Cloud route, it has been a complete disaster on every single level. Everyone I know in the graphics industry hates it with a passion. It is destroying Adobe's reputation and making people look for alternatives.

I can see a subscription model working for expensive sample libraries, where you can pay an affordable monthly fee instead of an expensive lump sum, but there are so many problems, both technically and in the fact that you never own the the product either.

The Adobe model is to be avoided at all costs, apart from piracy the other main motivation for Adobe was to lock customers into paying ongoing revenue for products that did everything you needed them to do in versions that are at least 10 years old. They have to force people to keep upgrading or they go bust!


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## Vlzmusic (Apr 15, 2015)

guitarman1960 @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> The Adobe model is to be avoided at all costs, apart from piracy the other main motivation for Adobe was to lock customers into paying ongoing revenue for products that did everything you needed them to do in versions that are at least 10 years old. They have to force people to keep upgrading or they go bust!



I see a big dilemma in what you say, *guitarman*. If someone`s making a living for 10 years, using a tool he paid for in the beginning, then inevitable question arises - what should do the person who created this tool in the first place?

You can`t dismiss his input, specially if this tool has proven to be so fine, to last a decade and work well. I can`t think of many professions, where any physical tool, or piece of machinery would serve you for ages, no repair costs, no arsenal renew.

If that talented developer would know he is in for problematic business, with small chances for real profits - he might as well abandon the idea altogether, so no tool to work with at all.

I am sorry for the OT, but for some time now, I see EW as well being mercilessly bashed, where at least some credit and respect could be given for coming up with such great ideas as capturing work of legendary Shawn Murphy, just as example, and implementing it with their private money - years before it even hits the shelves and they see a dime.

As craftsmen, wouldn`t it be logical to respect other crafts?


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 15, 2015)

Vlzmusic @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Wed Apr 15 said:
> 
> 
> > The Adobe model is to be avoided at all costs, apart from piracy the other main motivation for Adobe was to lock customers into paying ongoing revenue for products that did everything you needed them to do in versions that are at least 10 years old. They have to force people to keep upgrading or they go bust!
> ...



For sure, there are some great software developers, without which we wouldn't be able to create the music we create with our studio setups, so maximum respect to these companies, but time and again it seems that software developers want to keep playing the 'software is a special case' card when it comes to making profits often at the consumers expense.

Piracy isn't the consumers fault, neither is it the consumers fault that if the first version of the software does everything you need, you shouldn't be forced to keep upgrading just so the developer can make ongoing revenue. And don't even get me started on using consumers as unpaid test pilots because it seems software doesn't have to be 'fit for purpose' when you buy it, unlike every other product, and I won't even mention forbidding resale, as that has been discussed to death.

I'm not saying BTW that East West are guilty of these things, and fair play to them for trying something new, and also respect to them that their 'Play' engine hasn't been cracked or pirated either, that's all good. I'm just saying that I hope they and other audio developers don't follow the disaster of Adobe Creative Cloud.


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## procreative (Apr 15, 2015)

As someone who works in the graphic design industry by day I have passionately avoided Creative Cloud as I do not like the idea of locking my projects into software versions I have to keep subscribing to to open in future.

I paid a lot of money over the years to upgrade my Creative Suite with them and so I continue to use CS6 and will keep my Macs back an OS if necessary.

However what I have learned is I can live without a lot of the new "features" as my main apps with them are Photoshop and Illustrator. The only issue I run into is receiving files from 3rd parties who run CC.

The only difference here (at the moment) is that they continue to offer outright purchase, but if subscription takes off I doubt that will still be the case. Maybe the sales of outright will start to cease to tempt people away from their 75% sales?


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 15, 2015)

procreative @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> As someone who works in the graphic design industry by day I have passionately avoided Creative Cloud as I do not like the idea of locking my projects into software versions I have to keep subscribing to to open in future.
> 
> I paid a lot of money over the years to upgrade my Creative Suite with them and so I continue to use CS6 and will keep my Macs back an OS if necessary.
> 
> ...



The core problem the computer and software industry face, is that we are reaching saturation point with computer speed and software features, and more and more people will find that their current system and software does everything and more that they need. This is no good for the computer and software companies, they need people to keep upgrading in order to stay in business, but the useful new features are an ever dwindling spiral. There hasn't been any really useful new features in Photoshop, Illustrator and Dreamweaver for many years, but they have to keep people upgrading. This is partly achieved by operating systems that require faster processors and that deliberately won't run old software. There's a whole 'upgrade' conspiracy going on to keep people spending money they don't need to spend. As more and more people become satisfied with what they have, the manufacturers and developers will get more and more desperate. e.g. Adobe Creative Cloud


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## Mystic (Apr 15, 2015)

My main concern is that I have a feeling those of us who buy everything outright will start feeling pressured to get on subscription based on cost alone because that 70% discount will suddenly become 60%, then 50%, then eventually 35% will become a deal for EW products.

I usually wait a couple months before I buy because I know I'll see a good discount eventually (and who doesn't love a discount). The last one I got was HOP for 50% off and if I remember correctly, that was not long after it was released (black friday, I think?). I think SD3 was the first one I bought early and even that was on a preorder discount of like 10% or so. Everything else I was pretty content to wait for a deal on.

None-the-less, I hope that is not the case but call me crazy for having a feeling that is the way it's going to go.


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## Eric George (Apr 15, 2015)

I saw a thread on subscriptions and I just knew there had to be Adobe bashing within. 

First off congrats to EW for moving in this direction. It will be very beneficial to both EW and their customers.

I've seen some comments on the benefits of a subscription model. I've actually commented on that topic at length in other threads, so if that is of interest to you, I encourage you to search these forums. I don't have a lot of posts so they should be easy to find.

I do have to address at least one particularly fun comment:



guitarman1960 @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> Well lets hope it is implemented a LOT better than the complete crock of [email protected]#t that is Adobe Creative Cloud!
> 
> Adobe were primarily motivated by defeating piracy of their software by going the Creative Cloud route, it has been a complete disaster on every single level. Everyone I know in the graphics industry hates it with a passion. It is destroying Adobe's reputation and making people look for alternatives.



Luckily for a publicly traded company (such as Adobe), we have a great objective indicator of public satisfaction. The stock price. Customer's speak with their money and companies come an go based on this shrewd form of feedback.

I've attached a screen shot of Adobe's 5 year stock price glide. For reference, Adobe initially released the subscription model summer of 2012 and went exclusive summer of 2013. You'll see that Adobe's stock has more than doubled in that time and in fact is at an all time high. That says a lot about customer endorsement of the subscription model.

Hopefully some of you find this information helpful. I'm not planning on commenting further on this topic. I hope that EW and their customers find the same success with this model and I encourage all of you to be open minded and see how it works for you.

Disclaimer: I work for Adobe (and the team I manage is part of the Creative Cloud offerings).


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## sin(x) (Apr 15, 2015)

If at all, the stock price indicates the happiness of shareholders, not customers. Shareholders are happy as long as the company successfully convinces them that it's increasing in value. Whether it does that by maintaining a great reputation among their customer base or by sodomizing people who can't easily switch to the products of a competitor for one reason or another is entirely opaque from the stock market's point of view.

EDIT: http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/cmcsa/stock-chart?intraday=off&timeframe=5y&splits=off&earnings=off&movingaverage=None&lowerstudy=volume&comparison=off&index=&drilldown=off&symbol=CMCSA (Comcast).


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## StatKsn (Apr 15, 2015)

If Adobe as a public company means anything, I am aware that both Adobe's revenue and net income have sharply declined (net income became almost 1/4) since the start of Adobe Cloud and it is still going downward a bit. It is difficult to quantify that the cloud move of their end was necessarily a great thing. But subscription model is also a good alternative for small developers, I think. It may be a cure to the market saturation for churning out too much products / too much discounts /\~O

Also, mixing up customers (who is actually buying your products and has no direct impact on the share price) and institutional investors (who speculates on the company's future profit and has direct impact on the share price) is a very dangerous thing to do. I use Adobe products since like Photoshop 3.0 era? - and probably continue using though... Probably longer than any audio software I still use (for some reason my favorite audio software always becomes an abandonware :| ).


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## G.R. Baumann (Apr 15, 2015)

Eric George @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> Disclaimer: I work for Adobe (and the team I manage is part of the Creative Cloud offerings).



Hi Eric,

few things:

I am a CC user and I would state that Adobe's offer of creative cloud is a different cattle of fish. Since Thomas Knoll intervened himself, after a massive outcry from the photographic user community, the model for photographers in particular offers good value for my money in this subscription model. 

These are very complex programs, Photoshop and Lightroom, to begin with. Usually they have cycles of around 18 month before a new major version hits the market. Back in the days I upgraded my extended Version for a hefty price. This is now included in the subscription model and for 10 bucks a month it does come less epensive than the older model with 18 month cycles.

Here we talk about a bunch of samples that are how old? Let aside the known situation concerning the engine behind them. 

Besides, Adobe is the 500 pound Gorilla in the room, so, when they move, they do move. :lol: Of course, East West can not compare itself with the developing power of a company like Adobe.

So all in all, it's riding the Elephant, isn't it?

With complex programs like photoshop I have no issue with a well thought out subscription model. With samples, and a company asking *46 Euro per month* from a new customer.... Yeah right, good luck with that. :lol:


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 15, 2015)

I guess the marketplace will decide how much of a gorilla EW is in the sample library world, Mr. Baumann views notwithstanding, won't it?

Based on the track record, personally I would not bet against EW.


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## stonzthro (Apr 15, 2015)

The EW = Adobe argument doesn't make much sense to me.

Apple/Logic = Adobe CC
Yamaha/Cubase = Adobe CC
Finale = Adobe CC

EW = Auto FX
EW = Forge Filter
EW = Silver EFEX 

EW isn't a DAW company, they make plugins for a DAW. Do Adobe 3rd party plug-ins offer subscriptions? I don't know. 

In the past people have owned the content from audio plug-ins, and so it will probably take a major shift to see if this sticks. The best benefit is for someone to be able to try out the samples for a year and decide "YEAH!" or "meh...", and that is where EW will need to put their money. I think it could really push EW along, and I hope it does since I haven't felt compelled to buy many of their products in the last 5 years. 

Looking at the current lineup, there is a lot of padding in there, but that isn't what will bring people back. 

Should be an interesting year!


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## StatKsn (Apr 15, 2015)

EW may be a self-proclaimed "industry leader", but Adobe is a public company with 38 billion market capitalization and 13500 employees. It's huge! Just for a random idea - they are larger than American Airlines, Thomson Reuters, Hershey's, Twitter, Viacom in this metric. 2.7x bigger than Autodesk. Almost double the size of Sprint. 20 times as large as Dreamworks.

EW is probably no more than 100mil if it was a public company. But I guess it's OK to refer Adobe as a prime example because it is one of the biggest professional software company that went all-Cloud route. Whoa, I think this is so off-topic but interesting for the future of a small industry like professional audio software.


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## NYC Composer (Apr 15, 2015)

o[])


sin(x) @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> If at all, the stock price indicates the happiness of shareholders, not customers. Shareholders are happy as long as the company successfully convinces them that it's increasing in value. Whether it does that by maintaining a great reputation among their customer base or by sodomizing people who can't easily switch to the products of a competitor for one reason or another is entirely opaque from the stock market's point of view.
> 
> EDIT: http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/cmcsa/stock-chart?intraday=off&timeframe=5y&splits=off&earnings=off&movingaverage=None&lowerstudy=volume&comparison=off&index=&drilldown=off&symbol=CMCSA (Comcast).



As a small time investor-exactly so. I care about profitability, P/E ratio, free cash flow, debt, dividends, dividend growth, etc etc. As a consumer, I care about an entirely different set of issues. Any correlation between the two is merely serendipitous.

For Eric and his possible stock options, things may be quite different.


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 16, 2015)

On the flipside, thankfully there are a lot of differences between Adobe in the graphics industry and East West in the audio industry.

If you work in the graphics iindustry you basically need to use Adobe products in order to work with the rest of the industry, design studios, printers, web developers etc. 

In the case of composing music you are much more free to use whatever software and sample libraries you choose.

AS long as the subscription service for sample libraries remains an OPTION and there is always the ability for the consumer to buy the product for a lump sum, then this could be a benefit to composers who don't have a large budget available.

If I can subscribe to an expensive sample library for an affordable monthly fee, work with it for a few months and then decide if I want to actually purchase it outright, then I can see that being of real benefit to composers. If Adobe offered this, then there wouldn't have been such an outcry against creative cloud.

The danger comes when all the major developers decide to go the subscription only route to lock in revenue, and then we are all fucked!


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## Ganvai (Apr 16, 2015)

I want to give my 50 cent to this discussion.

I would like the idea. Having access to this huge Sample Pool for just 50$ is for beginners a huge help.

The only thing that bothers me is that the EW customer service is not worth that extra money they would earn with that model after a few years. 

An example: What would be interesting for me is the Hollywood Orchestra and a few ethnic libs. If you look at the CCC offer right now, that would be 1500$. after two years I would pay more for that Libs (especially with the stupid activation fee).

And these libs are stone old. No updates, no add-ons, not even Bug fixes! And East West really doesn't seem to care about that.

Library Updates are rare, help with PLAY issues even more and I am sorry to say that, although the support team is a nice one, the technical support, delivering solutions for bugs and issues, is the worst I know.

If I would be sure that the Libs would get an anual update, or even every two years, that would be great. Some other developers do this WITHOUT this payment model (big plus for Cinesamples team who did an unbelievable job on the VOXOS 2 update, just for example). East West is far beyond this kind of customer service.

In the end: East West Libs are great, and if you would have a customer service that is worth that extra money, I would go for it. But not after the bad examples you have given us in the last years.

Greets,
Jan


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## John Walker (Apr 16, 2015)

guitarman1960 @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> The danger comes when all the major developers decide to go the subscription only route to lock in revenue, and then we are all fucked!



Oh there's going to be a great deal of interest in this model from other sample developers. They'll be watching this thread very keenly.

The trouble with a lot of kids is they don't understand the implications of it. Dumbass. They can't think it through to it's inevitable consequence.

I would advise getting what you want /need now through purchase and leaving it at that. I mean in the end how much of this stuff does anyone really need and use that much? I have sample libraries on my hard drives that never see the light of day half the time. That said, any sample library could hold us all to ransom if they wanted. Updates!!! Every time there's another version of Kontakt or an OS.


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 16, 2015)

John Walker @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Thu Apr 16 said:
> 
> 
> > The danger comes when all the major developers decide to go the subscription only route to lock in revenue, and then we are all fucked!
> ...



Holding us to ransom, is exactly what Adobe have done with Creative Cloud, no wonder their shareholders and investors are happy, and all their customers are in a living nightmare!

BTW I'm not sure who you were calling a Dumbass, but it better not have been me.


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## John Walker (Apr 16, 2015)

guitarman1960 @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> nightmare!
> 
> BTW I'm not sure who you were calling a Dumbass, but it better not have been me.



Only if you're a dumbass kid. :lol:

I don't go on the EW website or forum but I looked in on the forum maybe two times and the issue there for me was this fanboy asshole effect the whole place seems to nurture. Then you listen to some of the music and you just begin to understand the ethos of sales and salesmanship. Wreaks of it. It's like a giant video game for morons. They deserve what they get.


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 16, 2015)

John Walker @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> guitarman1960 @ Thu Apr 16 said:
> 
> 
> > nightmare!
> ...



Well I'm certainly not a kid that's for sure, LOL :D 

I don't think you will find many East West fanboys on this forum, quite the opposite in fact!


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## lpuser (Apr 16, 2015)

I am still not sure what to think of this offering.

Comparing the CCC3 Gold selection (where you can have 7 instruments for around 900 EUR incl. VAT), the Cloud offering is 399 EUR incl. VAT per year. So from the 3rd year, one may already be paying more for the Composer Cloud, not taking other discounts for the full products into consideration.

I really wished there was additional info available already on what happens if long-time cloud users wish to purchase the products they use. Hope that EW can come up with something here.


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## JohnG (Apr 16, 2015)

Some people like to lease cars; that's not for me but plenty of people do.

Personally, I would rather own my libraries but some people may have their own reasons for another model. Just buy if you prefer. Nothing has been taken away. 

I am surprised at the consternation this thread has generated and also at some of the insinuations and speculation. It's like Edward Snowden redux or something.


[note: I have received free products from East West]


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 16, 2015)

lpuser @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> I really wished there was additional info available already on what happens if long-time cloud users wish to purchase the products they use. Hope that EW can come up with something here.



At the end of the annual subscription you of course have the opportunity to buy the product at its price point at that time. The advantage is that you will have used it for quite a while and know if you want to continue using it, either by leasing or buying it.


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## SirKen (Apr 16, 2015)

Eric George @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> *I saw a thread on subscriptions and I just knew there had to be Adobe bashing within. *
> 
> First off congrats to EW for moving in this direction. It will be very beneficial to both EW and their customers.
> 
> ...



Aren't the bold sentences somewhat contradictory? If customers were so happy with your offering, why did you expect to see Adobe bashing in the first place?!

Also, it might just be me but I was offended by your post. It felt like you were insulting our intelligence with that silly connection between shareholders/stock price and user satisfaction. 

As for EW's new model, they have every right to try any and all venues that they might find profitable... And customers have every right to vote with their wallets.


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## CELLINGTON316 (Apr 16, 2015)

A restaurant has the right to decide whether they want to add burgers to their menu or not. If they do, you don't have to get it there.

EastWest has the right to add a subscription model as it opens the door up to customers who can benefit from not having to pay a lump sum for purchases. I know full and well that a subscription means renting. But it allows me to utilize the product in a more affordable way and I can choose what I want.

The problem comes in how a company treats their full buy and subscription consumers and if it is equal treatment in terms of customer care. Also if you're only given the option for subscribe, I think that's a negative.

Some don't like music subscription/streaming services, well the option is still there to buy the music outright. Subscriptions just make it easier to enjoy a product in a more affordable way.

It has to be about options.


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## lpuser (Apr 16, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> At the end of the annual subscription you of course have the opportunity to buy the product at its price point at that time.



Thanks Jay, but I don´t quite understand: The price point is the standard sales price, unless I am mistaken. That would mean that EW does (currently) not yet offer a rebate based on the already made Cloud playments, correct?


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## CELLINGTON316 (Apr 16, 2015)

lpuser @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> I am still not sure what to think of this offering.
> 
> Comparing the CCC3 Gold selection (where you can have 7 instruments for around 900 EUR incl. VAT), the Cloud offering is 399 EUR incl. VAT per year. So from the 3rd year, one may already be paying more for the Composer Cloud, not taking other discounts for the full products into consideration.
> 
> I really wished there was additional info available already on what happens if long-time cloud users wish to purchase the products they use. Hope that EW can come up with something here.



I think the idea is that by leasing, you're accepting the fact that you're not owning the product and may end up paying more the longer you lease it. It's a trade off you're accepting in order to use something you couldn't otherwise afford to buy. The option is at least there.

Do I think there should be some sort of additional 25% off-like discount after leasing for a long period of time? Yes. I am in defense of subscription being a great option (similar to leasing a car). However I am also in support of some sort of option to buy/credit to go towards an actual purchase. If I've paid $600 after 12 months of subcription and come up with the means to buy $600 worth of product, it would be nice to get 15%, 25%, 30% or even 50% off of that $600 purchase from a customer service point of view. They already got $600 from a subscriber for the year and that subscriber is now willing to pay more to own showing even more loyalty to the product.

They may be likely to continue the subscription for other products they couldn't buy and purchase more later.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 16, 2015)

lpuser @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Apr 16 said:
> 
> 
> > At the end of the annual subscription you of course have the opportunity to buy the product at its price point at that time.
> ...



Correct. EW believes that the subscription price is a very good value and therefore products leased under it will not be sold at an additional price reduction, other than any sale that may/may not be going on at that time.


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 16, 2015)

Jay, can you comment on this:



> On the other hand, I'm also concerned about a price increase after the first year--$30/mo seems reasonable, $50 or $60 maybe not so much. Also, I think I get why the platinum versions of the Hollywood series aren't in there, but I strongly doubt that I would still be using EWQLSO today if I didn't have the platinum version of that library. The Composer Cloud FAQ mentions the possibility of upgrading to platinum/diamond, but I would like to know up front what that upgrade involves--increased subscription fee? One-time cost to buy a HDD with the platinum/diamond libraries pre-installed?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 16, 2015)

Ian Dorsch @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> Jay, can you comment on this:
> 
> 
> 
> > On the other hand, I'm also concerned about a price increase after the first year--$30/mo seems reasonable, $50 or $60 maybe not so much. Also, I think I get why the platinum versions of the Hollywood series aren't in there, but I strongly doubt that I would still be using EWQLSO today if I didn't have the platinum version of that library. The Composer Cloud FAQ mentions the possibility of upgrading to platinum/diamond, but I would like to know up front what that upgrade involves--increased subscription fee? One-time cost to buy a HDD with the platinum/diamond libraries pre-installed?



The answer I got was: "The details are still being worked out but it will involve purchasing a CCC PRO Sound Data Hard Drive as they are too large to download and an additional monthly fee. This will not be available for another 3 months however."

But really, at this time, the Creative Cloud is meant for Gold users.


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## Ian Dorsch (Apr 16, 2015)

OK, thanks. That's good info.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 16, 2015)

Pablocrespo @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> I have a question, if I go for the 7 items (I have a lot of eastwest) can I change the items when the month changes or I have to wait for the year to conclude?



Sorry, I missed this. Yes, you have to wait for the year to conclude to make changes.


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## Cinemascore (Apr 16, 2015)

To EastWest Lurker / anyone else who may know - I scanned both this thread and the official EW announcement page but couldn't find this answer: 

If one goes with the "all in" Composer Cloud plan, what is the approximate size of the ENTIRE current collection in terms of disk space? Are we able to install and reinstall parts at will?

Thanks! :D


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## schatzus (Apr 16, 2015)

Like it or not folks, everything is going this way. IMHO, better to embrace and figure out how to work within this model.


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 16, 2015)

Well, as several people have said, as long as subscription is just an option, then that's fine. If it becomes subscription or nothing, then that's certainly not fine!


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## sin(x) (Apr 16, 2015)

schatzus @ 2015-04-16 said:


> Like it or not folks, everything is going this way.



It's not if we're not. Don't act as if it's a law of nature.


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 16, 2015)

sin(x) @ Thu Apr 16 said:


> schatzus @ 2015-04-16 said:
> 
> 
> > Like it or not folks, everything is going this way.
> ...



Exactly. Also, while I wouldn't advocate using pirated software, if consumers are pushed into a corner, and feel like they are being fucked over, as they have been by Adobe, then it will only play into the hands of software crackers and torrent sites.

Lets hope audio developers have more sense and keep this as an option where it can certainly be of benefit to some users.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 17, 2015)

I believe that in a previous post I made a factually incorrect statement.

Although the Composer Cloud does not require a physical iLok, it is indeed tied to the iLok LicenseManger software, so clearly, Pace is involved.

Sorry for any confusion I created.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 18, 2015)

I found this statement and response interesting and maybe helpful to some:

An SOL forum member wrote: "I guess my main complaint is that, as a loyal supporter of EastWest for many years, I am excluded from that "exclusive content" unless I sign up to this subscription system, when it is not financially advantageous to me. I think EastWest has to offer the "exclusive content" to us members who already own most of the EastWest libraries, or we are being sold a bad deal here, and treated quite poorly I believe."

Admin responded: "Here's a compromise you might be happy with, loyal customers with 7 or more purchased products will be offered these instruments for purchase outside of Composer Cloud! 

However, Composer Cloud still might be a better deal at the current customer discount as you'll get other new releases, such as ProDrummer 1&2 as well; think about it, none of these collections/instruments are going to cost less than $199 each.

Your choice!"


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## DSP Bill (Apr 18, 2015)

Jay,

I thought this was a good idea and I signed up and installed and it breaks my existing licensed installs:

For example:

"You do not have a valid installation for "Stormdrum 2". Confirm that the product is installed correctly."

My existing libraries - such as Stormdrum 2 - were working until I installed the latest Play version and Composer Cloud. What's up with that? Do I have to reinstall everything? 

Anyone else experience this?

Thanks.

Bill


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 18, 2015)

DSP Bill @ Sat Apr 18 said:


> Jay,
> 
> I thought this was a good idea and I signed up and installed and it breaks my existing licensed installs:
> 
> ...



i have had a few reports like this, Bill. Email this to me with all your pertinent info and i will get you some help.

[email protected]


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## DSP Bill (Apr 18, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 18 said:


> DSP Bill @ Sat Apr 18 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay,
> ...



Thanks, details just sent to you.

Bill


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## José Herring (Apr 18, 2015)

Ian Dorsch @ Wed Apr 15 said:


> josejherring @ Wed Apr 15 said:
> 
> 
> > It's actually not a bad idea to have access to those products that I've been on the fence about.
> ...



Now I'm worried because PT also just announced a subscription model. If all the sample libraries and major software go in that direction then we are in trouble.


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## Stradibaldi (Apr 19, 2015)

> Let's not forget that nearly all professional software outside the music world is licensed on an annual or monthly basis. Adobe and EW are not moving in a new direction - they are simply catching up with the rest of the world.





> If the first version of the software does everything you need, you shouldn't be forced to keep upgrading just so the developer can make ongoing revenue.





> There hasn't been any really useful new features in Photoshop, Illustrator and Dreamweaver for many years, but they have to keep people upgrading.



Well now I'm scared if Finale and Sibelius will decide to "catch up" to this supposedly inevitable future business model. 

I'm 110% happy with Finale 2012. In fact, I was using _2010_ with no problems up until the day I had to collaborate with a 2012 user and boom, no backwards compatibility.

Am I robbing MakeMusic of ongoing revenue because they made their software too functional to upgrade? :wink:


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## sin(x) (Apr 19, 2015)

Ahh, annual versions whose main (and sometimes sole) purpose is to deprecate the previous one…

Perhaps it's confirmation bias at work, but somehow all these sleazy schemes seem to come from bigger corporations. Smaller development houses by and large seem to have curiously little problem getting by on honest no-strings-attached sales and paid updates where deserved.


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## StatKsn (Apr 19, 2015)

Actually, that is how I stopped using Mac since OSX (though backward compatibility was already next to nothing in Classic Mac era - which ironically made "Mac won't be affected by virus" urban legend). I'm often too lazy to upgrade ~o)


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## guitarman1960 (Apr 19, 2015)

The issue really is that as the market becomes saturated, many composers already have all the sample libraries and synths etc that they will ever really need to compose music with, and a DAW and computer system easily capable of running all the tracks they need too.

This puts software companies and developers in an increasingly difficult position. To have a sustainable business they have to keep customers spending money, and so the subscription model which forces customers to stay on the upgrade spiral and locks in ongoing revenue, becomes a more and more attractive option.


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 19, 2015)

guitarman1960, not true. If the developers keep pushing the envelope, they'll still be able to sell new, great products to us. However, it seems a company like EW have almost stopped developing new products (compared to their busy days 5-10 years ago) and are now basically trying to make a living eternally from their old portofolio. Clever.


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 19, 2015)

Simon Ravn @ Sun Apr 19 said:


> guitarman1960, not true. If the developers keep pushing the envelope, they'll still be able to sell new, great products to us. However, it seems a company like EW have almost stopped developing new products (compared to their busy days 5-10 years ago) and are now basically trying to make a living eternally from their old portofolio. Clever.



Wait and see, Simon, wait and see


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## Simon Ravn (Apr 19, 2015)

Jay, I was actually going to edit my post to make it little less "edgy", but you beat me to it with your reply. What I WAS gonna change was this: "... EW have slowed down development (compared to 5-10 years ago) and are seemingly trying to secure a steady income over the next many years from their old portofolio."

Doug already stated they are not going to do any more orchestral libraries. Of course there are many other territories to explore, but the output has been very small the few past years. But I'll wait and see


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 19, 2015)

Simon Ravn @ Sun Apr 19 said:


> Jay, I was actually going to edit my post to make it little less "edgy", but you beat me to it with your reply. What I WAS gonna change was this: "... EW have slowed down development (compared to 5-10 years ago) and are seemingly trying to secure a steady income over the next many years from their old portofolio."
> 
> Doug already stated they are not going to do any more orchestral libraries. Of course there are many other territories to explore, but the output has been very small the few past years. But I'll wait and see



Doug's emphasis is clearly moving away from the orchestral realm, at least for now. And when you are working with in demand guys like Joe Chicarelli, you have to accommodate their schedules, so they take a bit longer to finish then when it is just in house guys.

Once again, time will tell the tale. As they say in basketball, "Ball don't lie."


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## sin(x) (Apr 19, 2015)

guitarman1960 @ 2015-04-19 said:


> To have a sustainable business they have to keep customers spending money



I'd argue that once you're thinking in these terms, you've succumbed to putting carts before horses. I hate playing the Spectrasonics card, but what became of “to have a sustainable business, they have to keep coming up with cool stuff from time to time”?


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## quantum7 (Apr 19, 2015)

I do like the idea of subscription models for the simple reason of being able to actually try a product out before committing on a purchase. For example, to try out Storm Drum 3 and perhaps Hollywood strings, I'd gladly pay $30 a month to try a product out for a month or two, but $360 is not a good investment for myself when I only want to try out 1 or 2 products. I hope EW considers a monthly plan eventually. 

I hate contracts- I have no cell phone contract, no credit cards (keep one just for emergencies), and buy my vehicles outright. I only financed my home.....because I didn't have $350k in my wallet at the time.


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## Soundhound (Apr 19, 2015)

Jay/Bill,

Wondering if you guys could let us know whe. This is resolved?

Thanks!

Doug



DSP Bill @ Sat Apr 18 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Sat Apr 18 said:
> 
> 
> > DSP Bill @ Sat Apr 18 said:
> ...


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## DSP Bill (Apr 20, 2015)

Haven't heard a word yet. 

Bill


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 21, 2015)

DSP Bill @ Mon Apr 20 said:


> Haven't heard a word yet.
> 
> Bill



I see that you did get a response earlier today. Hope it helps.


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## DSP Bill (Apr 21, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 21 said:


> DSP Bill @ Mon Apr 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Haven't heard a word yet.
> ...



I did get the response, but I'm still having issues. I've been in a mix all day and haven't had the time to send a detailed response. I want to try the suggestions on my 2nd machine to rule out op error, but so far it still is unresolved. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks. 

Bill


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 21, 2015)

DSP Bill @ Tue Apr 21 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Tue Apr 21 said:
> 
> 
> > DSP Bill @ Mon Apr 20 said:
> ...



OK, well stay in touch with him because he is your point man now.


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## dimtsak (Apr 23, 2015)

Is it possible that with the arrival of the composer cloud, the CCC will stop to be sold?


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## bwmusic (Apr 26, 2015)

What is the cancellation policy for subscribing to Composer Cloud? Can one cancel after the first month?


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## EastWest Lurker (Apr 26, 2015)

bwmusic @ Sun Apr 26 said:


> What is the cancellation policy for subscribing to Composer Cloud? Can one cancel after the first month?



No, you are agreeing to a year.


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## mushanga (May 28, 2015)

Is there now an option to sign up for one month with no further commitment? If so I am surprised that this has neither been communicated on here nor in an EW marketing email yet...?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2015)

orchestranova @ Thu May 28 said:


> Is there now an option to sign up for one month with no further commitment? If so I am surprised that this has neither been communicated on here nor in an EW marketing email yet...?



No, you are agreeing to a year.


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## mushanga (May 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu 28 May said:


> orchestranova @ Thu May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > Is there now an option to sign up for one month with no further commitment? If so I am surprised that this has neither been communicated on here nor in an EW marketing email yet...?
> ...



What does the attached mean then?


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## EastWest Lurker (May 28, 2015)

orchestranova @ Thu May 28 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu 28 May said:
> 
> 
> > orchestranova @ Thu May 28 said:
> ...



Woh, shows you how big a player I am in the company that nobody let me know this


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## mushanga (May 28, 2015)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu 28 May said:


> orchestranova @ Thu May 28 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Thu 28 May said:
> ...



This is very encouraging...I am much more inclined to giving this a go now!


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## EwigWanderer (May 28, 2015)

I was first against of CC, but went for it last week. I'm happy with it and now even happier that I have the change to cancel it if for some reason I need to.


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## mushanga (May 29, 2015)

EwigWanderer @ Thu 28 May said:


> I was first against of CC, but went for it last week. I'm happy with it and now even happier that I have the change to cancel it if for some reason I need to.



You may not be able to cancel on a month-by-month basis if you already signed up to the annual plan and the month-by-month plan was not available at the time....maybe you should check this with EW?


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