# What is your favourite key (signature)?



## Rednas (Dec 9, 2012)

Simple question.

D major and G minor for me. o=< I try to compose in as much keys as possible, but these always attract me somehow .


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## EastWest Lurker (Dec 9, 2012)

When I am not in the key I love, I love the key I'm in.


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## Blackster (Dec 9, 2012)

*Re: What is your favourite key?*

Orchestral: I like F and Bb because the brass section sounds great in that keys  ... 
Rock: If it's a guitar song then obviously I use E, A and G the most.
Everything else: no favorites.


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## bryla (Dec 9, 2012)

I like the white keys


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## Rednas (Dec 9, 2012)

bryla @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> I like the white keys



:D I prefer the black ones.


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## germancomponist (Dec 9, 2012)

*Re: What is your favourite key?*

It always depends. The key contributes significantly to the mood of tracks. ..


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## Mahlon (Dec 9, 2012)

Color me pedestrian. But A minor.

M.


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## Studio E (Dec 9, 2012)

I always gravitate towards D and G for some reason. As far as black vs white keys, well, you know, after one of those two, you'll never want to go back. Just saying.


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## windshore (Dec 9, 2012)

F

It works great for orchestral instruments, as well as guitars. ha!


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 9, 2012)

For me it just depends on the instrument and its register. Changing keys sometimes will make it more efficient.


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## germancomponist (Dec 9, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> For me it just depends on the instrument and its register. Changing keys sometimes will make it more efficient.



Sure, if you write music for an instrument or a concert piece. But, if you write to pictures, then the film tells you what key works best... .


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## MacQ (Dec 9, 2012)

I'll write in anything that's appropriate, but I prefer black keys. Db and Ab are particular favourites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... jBQg#t=35s


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## Alex Cuervo (Dec 9, 2012)

When I'm testing sounds in Kontakt or a soft synth - my hand always runs along/outlines C-minor because C is the lowest key on a 25-key controller and I'm such a black-hearted snake. When I'm actually writing or goofing on my larger keyboard - I favor C#/A#m because I love the black keys too.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 9, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 09 said:
> 
> 
> > For me it just depends on the instrument and its register. Changing keys sometimes will make it more efficient.
> ...




No, because it's more important to have the music effective no matter what it's written for. If the melody is more effective a tone higher because it works better with the register/timbre of the instrument, then go for it.


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## germancomponist (Dec 9, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> germancomponist @ Sun Dec 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 09 said:
> ...



The important and interesting thing here is that you often also have to change your arrangement when changing the key, and this can have a big impact on *emotions*.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 9, 2012)

Gunther, we can't take into account every single factor it will affect, of course it could change the personality of the music if you go up or down a 5th or 4th. But I'm saying this as a principal of orchestration, colour and timbre, one should understand how to get the best of the instrument. EX. If the highest note of a bassoon passage is X, but X sounds a bit plain, as for 1 or 2 tones higher, it would have an interesting effect, and that would give the piece much more expression.

If you are talking about pads and Zimmer like repeated notes, yeah, who cares?


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## Leosc (Dec 9, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> If you are talking about pads and Zimmer like repeated notes, yeah, who cares?



Ouch.
Eb and Gb for me.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 9, 2012)

Yeah, that wasn't nice of me. :(


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## Leosc (Dec 9, 2012)

No need to be nice all the time. In fact I quite concur with your points. Hans' approach always seems to be more about sound than composition. That, however, seems to be in contradiction to "who cares about the key" - at first glance. Quite the conundrum!


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## germancomponist (Dec 9, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> Gunther, we can't take into account every single factor it will affect, of course it could change the personality of the music if you go up or down a 5th or 4th. But I'm saying this as a principal of orchestration, colour and timbre, one should understand how to get the best of the instrument. EX. If the highest note of a bassoon passage is X, but X sounds a bit plain, as for 1 or 2 tones higher, it would have an interesting effect, and that would give the piece much more expression.


Guy, I am talking about writing to picture, you are talking about writing for an instrument..... . 2 pairs of different shoes. 


> If you are talking about pads and Zimmer like repeated notes, yeah, who cares?


What do you want to bring with this remark? :roll:


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## Kralc (Dec 9, 2012)

Alex Cuervo @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> When I'm testing sounds in Kontakt or a soft synth - my hand always runs along/outlines C-minor because C is the lowest key on a 25-key controller and I'm such a black-hearted snake.


Ha, this is exactly me. And then I always seem to manage to slip into the ostinato from Mind Heist.


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 9, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> Guy Bacos @ Sun Dec 09 said:
> 
> 
> > Gunther, we can't take into account every single factor it will affect, of course it could change the personality of the music if you go up or down a 5th or 4th. But I'm saying this as a principal of orchestration, colour and timbre, one should understand how to get the best of the instrument. EX. If the highest note of a bassoon passage is X, but X sounds a bit plain, as for 1 or 2 tones higher, it would have an interesting effect, and that would give the piece much more expression.
> ...



I maintain my what I'm saying, but we don't seem to be communicating here, so we'll leave it at that.


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## Arbee (Dec 9, 2012)

For romantic lush piano I love Db major, otherwise it really depends on whether the main focus is strings, horns, guitars, synths etc.

There must have been a trauma somewhere in my piano training as a child, I detest playing the piano in Ab major, and for no particular reason :?


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## germancomponist (Dec 9, 2012)

hm.......


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 9, 2012)

germancomponist @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> hm.......



I don't know what you mean by that Gunther, but remember, this is my opinion which you don't have to agree, and it's also my method of work, which is probably different than yours. This is not a right or wrong answer in this thread. If you noticed, I started my first reply with: "For me...", so I hope you can respect my "odd" approach.


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## Rctec (Dec 9, 2012)

Yes, Guy, what are you trying to say with your remark? ...Because I do care. And so do the people that hire me, and the musicians that play on my scores. I'm fully aware of what instrument sounds good in what key - in an academic way - but I very much take the individual player and their instrument into account. No two players will sound the same, thank god, other than in the endless regurgitation of academic cliches and samples.
So, Guy, time to really speak your mind. I am always open to have a frank discussion. But I don't like the sly inuendo disguised as academic superiority. That tastes like sour grapes. And I'm sure that is not the contribution as a fellow composer you'd like to make.
Best
-Hz-


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 9, 2012)

Ok, think I need to apologize, I had no idea who was in the conversation. However my point is this: For me, my favourite key becomes the key that works the best for that piece. 

If anything what I said was a compliment, your music works so well, it will sound great in any key.

I am a fan, even though my genre is different, but nobody does it better than you.

Please accept my apology.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 9, 2012)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> Ok, think I need to apologize, I had no idea who was in the conversation. However my point is this: For me, my favourite key becomes the key that works the best for that piece.
> 
> If anything what I said was a compliment, your music works so well, it will sound great in any key.
> 
> ...



pf :roll:


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## Rctec (Dec 9, 2012)

No, Mr. Bacos, I was referring to this:

"If you are talking about pads and Zimmer like repeated notes, yeah, who cares?"

Since I am "that" Zimmer, the "yeah, who cares" seems a little condecending, patronizing, offensive, and a direct attack on my aesthetic.
We are both foreigners, but I believe you speak English well enough to realize the (not so) subtle use of tone here. 
And - if by magic - we are back to the color of keys, of harmony and dissonance - the subtle difference of tone. No accusations of snobbery. 

But truly - I dont understand your response.... Why the "Grow up"? Why the "we don't understand"? ...And what has Noiseboyuk (Love That Name!) got to do with any of this? Please, would you be a gentleman and explain yourself in a little more detail. I might be dim, I might just be missing your point here. You know, to me ostinatoes are a little bit like keys, too. Technically, you want to make sure they sit well under the fingers of the instrumentalist...It's as easy (or as hard) to change key as it is to write an ostinato. So any pretense at sophistication of the one over the other seems more like a lack of academic thought to me. Someone's comment earlier in the thread about the film (in my case, definitively) dictating the color and key are very true as well. That's why I spend a lot of time with the cinematographer and the art director...

All my very best to you,

-Hz-


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## FriFlo (Dec 9, 2012)

Hans, I guess everybody hates those "Zimmer-Spiccatos" by now. At the same time a lot of folks really dig your recent scores, like the batman movies, which are packed with these. Its just the copies over and over, everywhere, even in the most inappropriate places (like a tension builder in a casting show), that are getting on peoples nerves. 
To me, the batman-chugga-chugga is a brilliant musical version of the wings of a bat flapping. It works as the usual tension builder as well, but to me it draws the picture of a bat. That is why I really hate getting that as a temp track for some completely different movie or hearing all over the place ....
I guess Guy feels the same way. Don't think he hates your work!


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## synergy543 (Dec 9, 2012)

Friflo does make a good point here I think where there is some truth - that is, about the over-exposure of the Batman ostinatos due to their tremendous success. Really though that's about the most wonderful compliment a musician could expect. Still, even you must realize the extent to which you are imitated though (with the utmost respect).

While Prokofiev also made extensive use of ostinatos in Sym 5 Mv.2, it was generally not played over and over on the air waves, in commercials, trailers, and all over the internet, and it was not imitated by every musician with a keyboard and sampler. In the same way, everyone is suddenly and Epic Pirate composer too!. Its imitation because so many love the sound even if it does become over-exposed at times.

Well sometimes these days it seems the walls are collapsing as in Inception, but I suppose the onslaught of media attention can't be moderated as we don't live in the old days of concerts or theaters only. Which is a great thing, for those works that become successful, despite sometimes causing other musicians to cringe at the over-use while still envious and respectful of the success.

I tip my hat to you sir with the deepest respect,

Greg


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## Rctec (Dec 9, 2012)

Guy, I didnt see your response...The magic of the internet 

Never a need to appologize. At the end of the day, I think all of us on this forum are passionate about music - not about being right. 
But I have a feeling that the one thing Mr. Bacos and I have in common is the irresistable urge at throwing out a provocative sentence.
The other thing we have , no doubt in common, is a pretty good work ethic. Guy, you've gone after me before , and I let it go...But I have listened to your music and your programming work, and even if some of it wasn't entierly my cup of tea, there was always lots to admire in it. So I know You Care when you make music. Just know that I do too...

Best,

-H-


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## jeffc (Dec 9, 2012)

C minor for me. Feels good on the hands, although I'm sure it's overused cause it's easy.

Although, I wonder a lot of times, if we're being totally honest and not trying to sound all highbrow music theory-ish, if we pick keys based on what's easiest to play quickly. I mean, let's be honest, if you're sitting at the piano, C, Dminor, A minor, F man are easy and mostly white keys. It just feels good on the hands so inevitably that leads the writing sometimes. I'm always shocked at the end of the season, how many cues are in the same key, without really thinking about it in the heat of writing. 

I'd also add, that if you're using a lot of guitars (and you play them) that you're not writing too much in Eflat and B flat, not because they don't sound good, but they're a pain in the a*% to play. You want that low open e string, not having to play it an octave up and sounding all wimpy. While it's super easy to transpose everything up in Logic a half step to see how it sounds, add in the real guitars and it makes you wonder if it's worth the trouble when you've got 10 more cues to write that day....

Anyway, a tangent, but this is an interesting discussion as it's something I never really think about too much - and probably should. 

And, I think the Zimmer short ostinatos get my blood pumping in whatever key they are in, and that emotional reaction is the whole point of it all now isn't it?

J


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## Aquatone (Dec 9, 2012)

Rednas,

After many years of EIS, I prefer no key signature. I notate all the sharps and flats, keeping the current tonal center in mind…whether it be 2 beats or 20 measures. That keeps it clearer in my head and gives me more freedom to "shift". If I have a certain instrument in mind, an "optimal" range might influence a bit of the writing…like Blackster pointed out.

The player's "sweet spot"/ability is another consideration. When handing it to players, I will notate the most logical key and key changes.

When arranging or orchestrating, I'm somewhat bound to a key or tonality but I'll often write the arrangement with no key signature to help me use a little imagination when I'm given the opportunity to embellish the arrangement. Using Sibelius, I might switch back and forth between "key" and "no key". Sometimes it will spark an idea.

For me, it's just a matter whatever gets the job done with the least amount of "fuss" and most fun for all involved.


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## Kralc (Dec 9, 2012)

jeffc @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> I'd also add, that if you're using a lot of guitars (and you play them) that you're not writing too much in Eflat and B flat


Wha! Down tune that guitar half a step, and you're in heaven.=o


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 9, 2012)

Rctec @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> No, Mr. Bacos, I was referring to this:
> 
> "If you are talking about pads and Zimmer like repeated notes, yeah, who cares?"
> 
> ...



Hi Hans,

I did say "Zimmer like", because as we all know, it's now been imitated to death. The imitations seems to be less flattering, that doesn't help, and it has become a commercial device that is synonymous to "I can write film music". This is a bit disturbing. Obviously, when the entire production comes together with all the other orchestral parts, it's certainly impressive and has a unique drive, especially at the theater. I think being bombarded with the "Zimmer like ostinato" has had an influence on me. Similar as in the 18th century, when suddenly 2nd rate composers started writing arpeggios all over the place, it got tiresome and the best ones prevailed. But I'm not saying either it's my thing, but I can appreciate it in moderation and well done. Also, these 2nd rate productions didn't make me believe there was some "art form" to this, but rather a commercial device. I remember several years ago studying the score of "The Last Samurai", which I really enjoyed, however, I didn't think it would become an epidemic. This is the sad thing, composers imitating others rather than going for something more personal. Having said that, your reply may enlighten me to a certain art form in scored ostinatos, as you began to describe. Remember, I'm only human, I still have things to learn, a lot! 




Rctec @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> Why the "Grow up"? Why the "we don't understand"?



Maybe because I've been already accused before, on this forum, of "academic superiority" and this time got frustrated since I honestly never felt it was my intention, neither the previous times. I'd attribute it more to my awkward way of stating my thoughts sometimes. Face to face, someone could say: Em Guy, what do you mean by that? And then they understand what you meant and things are cool. Forums are bad for disagreements sometimes. 



Rctec @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> ...And what has Noiseboyuk (Love That Name!) got to do with any of this?



Well, he's been a regular poster on this forum and was offended by something and decided to leave.


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## Dave Connor (Dec 10, 2012)

Acall @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> ...I quite concur with your points. Hans' approach always seems to be more about sound than composition.



I did not understand this statement and had formed a reply before I saw that the composer had joined the discussion.

I listen to Classical composers constantly from Bach to Berg to Bernstein (Elmer or Leonard.) It takes a lot for a film composer to grab my attention compositionally. He may grab my attention in many different ways and of course the music may be simple and still be great etc., but very few guys flat out baffle me as to how they achieved this or that in their writing. 

My point is that Hans Zimmer grabs my attention with the purely compositional aspects of his music regularly and always with the keenest insight into the picture. In fact I often find myself trying to figure out what the heck he's doing musically to get those harmonies, textures, effects et al. There are only two other composers that I would put into this category of mystifying me on a regular basic: Alex North and Jerry Goldsmith. So people aren't paying attention and properly scrutinizing the music itself if they don't hear it. A composer may have signature devices and sounds just as Mr. Zimmer and everyone else does (his are film innovations however and should be recognized as such) but when he takes his shot at a film cue you are more often than not going to witness the rarest of combinations: deep musical thought and serving the picture perfectly dramatically: elevating the picture ultimately. 

To maintain this level of music writing consistently and under time constraints is the mark of a very gifted musician and dramatist and Hans Zimmer has proven himself to be just that too many times to count.


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## Rednas (Dec 10, 2012)

Glad we are back on-topic! Lol.



Aquatone @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> Rednas,
> 
> After many years of EIS, I prefer no key signature. I notate all the sharps and flats, keeping the current tonal center in mind…whether it be 2 beats or 20 measures. That keeps it clearer in my head and gives me more freedom to "shift".



I never used this method, but this is def. something to try out. HZ pointed out that



Rctec @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> any pretense at sophistication of the one over the other seems more like a lack of academic thought to me.



Even though this statement is true in my case - I didn't went to any music school, neither am I fully classically trained - I tend to disagree. In the end all composers, bands and songwriters write more in one key than in the other, whether that's 'technical'-related or 'emotional'-related. Bach wrote a lot of his music in D minor, which he considered 'the saddest of all keys'. G minor has been considered the key through which Mozart best expressed 'sadness'. Beethoven seemed to like Eb. I wouldn't say these men had 'a lack of academic thought'. 

But coming from a pop and rock background, it would be a good thing for me to start thinking less in terms of 'key signatures'.


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## Ganvai (Dec 10, 2012)

Since 2009 I am part of a medieval folk band an write songs for them and produced three cds. 

The main melody instruments are bagpipes, built by our pipers themselves. They can only play in 'a'.

So after all the years in this band, when I write music for other things, I never write pieces in a. I have enough of this key, although it has a very good touch for epic things. 

My guitar-skills got trained in several metal-bands during my school-time, so this might be the reason why I have grown a custom to d-minor (we tuned our guitars down).


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## Ryan (Dec 10, 2012)

Well, I do things by ear/hearing. Don't think I got a favorite key... I'm a outsider then :(


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## dgburns (Dec 10, 2012)

wow,interesting to know we go to certain keys.For me,the film seems to drive me toward the key,and sometimes it's maybe something in the source tracks that guides me,maybe some noise that has a vibe to it or something.
I may be completely wrong,but I once thought i heard that every key is actually not supposed to use the exact same freq as the others keys,but that equal temperament brought them all together.I romantically,maybe,imagine every key as living in it's own place,unique from the others.kinda gives it a special meaning when selecting a starting point.call me a dreamer..
david


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 10, 2012)

This may be of interest. Beethoven was surely the composer in which he had the most specific attachment for individual keys. Here is Paul Loyonnet's, concert pianist and pedagogue, (also my piano teacher as a kid) description of each key in relation to Beethoven's music. Mr Loyonnet (1886-1988 ) has written several books on Beethoven, so his knowledge on Beethoven is quite vast.

The original text is in french, but I put the google translate below, which in some cases is more or less the correct translation.


_Ut majeur_:
Ton clair, sorte d'écran sur lequel peuvent se projeter les modulations colorantes (à remarquer que la 3e Sonate de Beethoven, en son premier mouvement conserve quelque chose de caractère "guerrier", 
qui sera abandonné plus tard).* Gay et guerrier*

_Ut mineur:_
Ton tragique: l'homme aux prise avec le Destin. * Obscur et triste*

_Ré mineur:_
L'état le plus tragique,plus encore désespéré. *Grace et dévot*

_Ré majeur:_
Ton de revirement euphorique dans le sens de la combativité contre la douleur. *Joyeux et très guerrier.*

_Mi mineur:_
Tendresse un peu triste, un peu plaintive. Parfois irrésolution.* Efféminé, amoureux, plaintif.*

_Mi majeur:_
Ton de chaleur euphorique, luminosité d'ordre spirituel. *Querelleur et criard*.

_Mib majeur:_
Ton de l'héroisme, victoire de l'homme sur le Destin. Joie de la victoire. *Cruel et dur*

_Mib mineur:_
Fort rarement employé(voir Marche Funèbre de l'Opus 26) Toujours dans un sentiment sombre. *Horrible, affreux*

_Fa majeur:_
Le ton de la Nature. Epanouissement, large respire, euphorie ressentie sound l'influence des éléments vivifiants de la nature. *Furieux, emporté*

_Sol majeur:_
En général la joie au contact de la nature, le frémissement des forces naturelles dans la douceur, la fraîcheur, de la joie douce. * Doucement, joyeux*

_Sol mineur:_
Rarement employé comme principal, il représente l'assombrissement des joyeux paysages intérieurs de sol majeur. *Sérieux et magnifique*

_La mineur:_
Dans l'expression de la douleur peut traduire l'emportement; le désespoir (moins marqué que dans le ré mineur cependant) Beethoven l,a aussi employé en mode élégiaque. *Tendre et plaintif.*

_La majeur:_
Ton d'expression heureuse, voire joyeuse; visions aimables, gracieuses; souvent traduit de ravissement causé par la vision de la grâce féminine. Aussi combat de l'optimisme contre le découragement. *Joyeux et champêtre*

_Sib majeur:_
Héroïsme, caractère combatif, dans la puissance intérieure.* Magnifique et joyeux*

_Sib mineur:_
Peu employé par Beethoven. *Obscur et terrible*

_Si mineur:_
Egalement peu utilisé pas Beethoven. *Solitaire et mélancolique*

_Si majeur:_
Peu usité, mais dans les modulations, éclatant et joyeux. *Dur et plaintif*

_Lab majeur:_
Tendresse, espérance, victoire spirituelle sur le drame intérieur. *(Non mentionné)*


Google English translation:


_C major_
Clear tone, a kind of screen that can project modulations coloring (note that the third sonata Beethoven in the first movement retains something of character "warrior"
which will later abandoned). *Gay and Warrior*

_C minor:_
Tragic tone: the man taken with Fate. *Dark and sad*

_ D minor _
The state of the most tragic, even more desperate. *Grace and devout*

_D major: _
Euphoric tone reversal in the direction of the fighting against the pain. *Happy and very warlike. *

_ E minor:_
Tenderness a little sad, a little plaintive. Sometimes irresolution. *Effeminate, amorous, plaintive.*

_E major:_
Euphoric warmth, spiritual brightness. *Wrangler and screaming.*

_Eb Major:_
key of heroism, victory of man over Fate. Joy of victory. *Cruel and hard*

_Eb minor:_
Very rarely used (see Funeral March Opus 26) Always in a dark feeling. * Horrible*

_ F Major: _
The tone of Nature. Fulfillment wide breathes euphoria felt the influence of sound invigorating elements of nature. * Angrily away* 

_G major:_
In general joy in contact with nature, the thrill of natural forces in softness, freshness, sweet joy. *Easy, happy *

_ G minor: _
Rarely used as the main, it is darkening cheerful interior landscapes of G major. *Serious and beautiful *

_A Minor:_
In the expression of pain may reflect the anger, despair (less marked than in D minor though) l Beethoven, also employed elegiac mode. *Tender and plaintive. *

_A major_
Your expression happy, even joyous visions friendly, graceful, often translated rapture caused by the vision of feminine grace. Also fight against discouragement optimism. *Happy and country *

_Bb major _
Heroism, character fighting in the inner power. *Beautiful and happy*

_Bb minor: _
Little used by Beethoven. * Dark and terrible*

_B minor:_
Also not much used Beethoven. *Solitaire and melancholy *

_B major_
Little used, but in the modulations, bright and cheerful. *Hard and plaintive *

_Ab major: _
Tenderness, hope, spiritual victory over the inner drama.* (Not mentioned) *


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 10, 2012)

I remember some interesting cross-rhythms in some of the 'Hans ostinatos' in Inception that I really liked. They were pretty subtle. 

My favorite for machs is D min, the saddest of keys.


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## dgburns (Dec 10, 2012)

I think this is kinda neat.Do keys have a property all their own?
reminds me of the golden ratio...

Could we not use this but think of the transpositions as a move from whatever key we are centered in?would it not have the same effect?or is "c" such a burned in thing?

the google translate is not as elegant as the french btw.
david


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## Guy Bacos (Dec 10, 2012)

dgburns @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> I think this is kinda neat.Do keys have a property all their own?
> reminds me of the golden ratio...
> 
> Could we not use this but think of the transpositions as a move from whatever key we are centered in?would it not have the same effect?or is "c" such a burned in thing?
> ...



No, this chart is for Beethoven only, it is only his associations. If you take Chopin for example, he will use Eb major for a tender Nocturne, as for Beethoven it's a key of heroism, victory of man over Fate. Joy of victory.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Dec 10, 2012)

I've posted about this before, but I think everyone has a "resonant frequency" of sorts - the frequency you sing if you just relax and hum the low note that comes out. If you do that three times a day and check it, by the end of the second day you'll hit it every time, and even the first day you won't be off by more than a half step. You have to maintain that, however - it goes away.

For me the note is a low D below the bass clef, and probably it's not a coincidence that I like that key.

(Obviously this becomes much less relevant if you have perfect pitch. I don't, although I do hear things like 44.1/48kHz playback errors.)


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## Rctec (Dec 10, 2012)

This is all I ever needed to know about film music: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGki9WEKHAM


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## givemenoughrope (Dec 10, 2012)

see your...
raise you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZDjWLwqAPY


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## dgburns (Dec 10, 2012)

This is all I ever needed to know about film music: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGki9WEKHAM

funny...till you realize it's too close to the truth..."superhans?" nice tie-in there

he's in b btw
sorry...
d


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## Vision (Dec 10, 2012)

Much respect for you HZ, for coming into potential hostile territory, and contributing your opinions, feelings, and experience. I wish more A-list film composers would do the same. 

Anyway, interesting topic. Personally, I've found that my favorite key is wherever my synesthetic colors take me. That probably sounds unconventional.. but my more creative tracks, while I do put a great deal of thought into, are typically more emotional/color driven. Worrying about what key to start in etc.. is counterproductive and counterintuitive to my process. 

I'll only start in a specific key if a client needs it to be a specific key.


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## germancomponist (Dec 10, 2012)

Rctec @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> This is all I ever needed to know about film music:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGki9WEKHAM


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## George Caplan (Dec 10, 2012)

germancomponist @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> Rctec @ Mon Dec 10 said:
> 
> 
> > This is all I ever needed to know about film music:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGki9WEKHAM



one key I dont why i have trouble with is b minor. its a mystery to me but i like playing in it. when i get back im going to record bachs echos.


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## Dan Mott (Dec 10, 2012)

I write, but scrap everything I write because I think it isn't good enough, but I think for me, the sound chooses the key. If I get inspired by a nice sound, I'll just hear what it wants to play and it generally sounds good.


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 10, 2012)

Rctec @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> This is all I ever needed to know about film music:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGki9WEKHAM



"What we need to do is create a powerful sense of dread."

Utterly brilliant.


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## marclawsonmusic (Dec 10, 2012)

Dave Connor @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> Acall @ Sun Dec 09 said:
> 
> 
> > ...I quite concur with your points. Hans' approach always seems to be more about sound than composition.
> ...



Hans always does what is best for the picture.

I cannot think of a better compliment for a film composer.


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## Waywyn (Dec 11, 2012)

Just as a sidequestion, but why is it always about keys, melodies and harmonies. I've hardly ever seen a discussion about time signatures. Of course harmony is important because without we wouldn't obviously hear tonal variations, ... but without rhythm, we wouldn't be even able to play anything else than one long note which never changes. I will stop here, because this could way down philosophical since without rhythm you would never be able to even start or stop that note *blah* *swirlinghisfinger* 
Okayokay, I am aware that a simple beat is also a note somehow, but you get the idea.

Anyway, I find that rhythm is totally underestimated! Just sayin'

[schild=19 fontcolor=006400 shadowcolor=000000 shieldshadow=1]Rhythm is underestimated[/schild]


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## dgburns (Dec 11, 2012)

hey Waywyn,
nice point,ok so time sig then key.sometimes anything BUT common time.Hey does HZ ever go out of common time?any examples there?

And someone asked earlier about recent music in non common time.I think JW wrote the Indianan Jones theme in 12/8, and I'm sure there was some 5/4 action going on in the last LOTR at the big battle scene.And Alice in Chains wrote in 7/8...and there was a Really cool 11/8 example in another post that Ned B commented on.

Hey Nick,love your post too btw.I think you are on to something...!
cheers guys
david


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## Chriss Ons (Dec 11, 2012)

For real players: any key that doesn't create intonation problems or embarrass the hell out of them.


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## AlexRuger (Dec 17, 2012)

Rctec @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> This is all I ever needed to know about film music:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGki9WEKHAM



Ha! This is quickly becoming my new favorite show.

My $0.02 on Mr. Zimmer's use of ostinato's...
(Actually this is really long. I guess it's more like $0.15... o[]) )

I think one of the reasons why his music is so--for lack of a better word, "controversial"--is because of the misguided opinion of many musicians that more notes equals better music. They simply don't understand the minimalist aesthetic. Now, I wouldn't call _all_ of his scores minimalist, but the Dark Knight Trilogy--in particular Batman Begins--really touches on that. He's sort of the Steve Reich of film composers, and we all know how much flack Reich has gotten over the years.

As far as I can tell, HZ is saying what has to be said with the least effort possible. Not out of laziness--far from it. I'm sure paring down the Joker theme to its final product took _a lot_ of time. Waiting to resolve Bruce's theme (Im to bVI w/ the 1 and 5 of each chord, respectively, on top) in Batman Begins and just sitting on the Im until he self-actualized as Batman was a brilliant move, and one that the vast majority of composers would overlook. It's about cutting right to the core of the character and saying only what's necessary, like the difference between a mediocre blues guitarist and BB King. Though many might describe HZ's music as repetitious and bombastic, I hear music of great restraint and refinement.

"Copy-cats" of "the HZ sound" hear only the end-result--something that is relatively easy to understand and repetitive (and we all know one of the strongest tools in music is repetition--hence another reason to use ostinatos). They _copy only the *end result*_, when what _they should be copying/taking away from HZ is *the method* he used to get there._ The difference between the music of Mr. Zimmer and someone like, say, John Williams, is not the amount of notes, but the path taken in expressing their artistic intent. Viewed outside of film music: Philip Glass and Beethoven have radically different approaches, Green Day and Dream Theater have radically different approaches, but whose is more "valid?" The answer is "the one that moves you the most." There are many different paths to the top of the mountain. For me, if your intent is true, I'll listen. And one can easily hear through the intent of HZ copy-cats.



Leosc @ Sun Dec 09 said:


> Hans' approach always seems to be more about sound than composition.


Isn't that why we're all here? The way I see it, modern film composition almost _requires _that we're as original in the sounds we use as the notes we write. Again, Hans is approaching this concept in just a few of infinite ways.

Now that I've o=< quite long enough...on to the topic of this thread.

If I have an idea floating around in my head, I'll make sure I begin writing it in the key that my "mind's ear" was hearing it in. After that, the instrumentation as well as any future transpositions dictate the key. I love the sound of cellos and trombones in C (major or minor), violas and bassoons in Ab minor, pianos in D and A, guitars in F#.


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## tokatila (May 4, 2015)

F minor definitely. Everything that is mundane in D minor can be made divine in F minor. 

Also C minor; because, well, Beethoven. And E minor, because, well, because every cool superhero theme in the existence.


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## SeattleComposer (May 4, 2015)

D minor. I do not know why. It just happens. I fight it. 

This should have been a poll.


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## Anders Wall (May 4, 2015)

Guy Bacos @ Mon Dec 10 said:


> No, this chart is for Beethoven only, it is only his associations. If you take Chopin for example, he will use Eb major for a tender Nocturne, as for Beethoven it's a key of heroism, victory of man over Fate. Joy of victory.



Not my expertise but I believe that Beethoven and Chopin used different pitch standards.
Beethoven's A was 422:ish and Chopin's A was 446:ish or so I have been told.

In a modern A that = 440 a G# is 415 and Bb is 466.

So I guess the Nocturne is more of a C#/D major for someone with ears like Beethoven.

Cheers,

/Anders

Edit: And oh, I forgot the initial question. I have no favorite. It's all about the music I'm writing.
When it's for moving images with spoken words on top I try to listen for what pitches the actors use and work with and around them.


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## sleepy hollow (May 4, 2015)

Waywyn @ Tue 11 Dec said:


> ... but without rhythm, we wouldn't be even able to play anything else than one long note which never changes.





Waywyn @ Tue 11 Dec said:


> Anyway, I find that rhythm is totally underestimated! Just sayin'


Absolutely. I'd even take that further and say that rhythm is not just underestimated, but in fact more important than melody. I really think that humans are pattern-seeking and pattern-analyzing lifeforms.



Waywyn @ Tue 11 Dec said:


> I will stop here, because this could way down philosophical since without rhythm you would never be able to even start or stop that note *blah* *swirlinghisfinger*


Hm, maybe we need a new subforum. "Music Philosophy". I love those kind of discussions!
What do you people think? Good idea for a helpful, playful and resourceful subforum?


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