# Why so much hate against USB security dongles (like iLok and Steinberg key)



## barteredbride (Jun 1, 2019)

Innocent question honestly.

I've always had to use one for VSL libraries, but never really thought about it.

I've read a few times people refusing to use certain companies or products because they use security usb dongles.

Just intrigued by reasoning why. Workflow? Extra cost? The Big Brother element? Lack of trust? 

Sorry if I'm opening up a hot topic here!!

Thanks everyone!


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## W Ackerman (Jun 1, 2019)

I have a lot of very critical data and applications on my computer (not music-related) and go to great lengths to be able to recover quickly from bare metal on another computer, perhaps in another location. In the event of theft or destruction that includes the dongles, complete restoration on another computer is problematic. I also have applications that are tied to a hardware signature and require reactivation on a new computer, but these are not as problematic.


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## Wally Garten (Jun 1, 2019)

Honestly, I just resent a company demanding a USB slot all to itself. Between MIDI controllers, interfaces, external drives, synths that plug in, etc., open slots are in short supply on a musician's desk. Just strikes me as rude -- especially when they _charge_ for the dongle.


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## ManicMiner (Jun 1, 2019)

For me, its the price they charge (I think $25) for the privilege of transferring a license. Its the price of the USB stick itself, its the fact that it takes up a USB port, and if you want to use your plugins on another computer you have to take your dongle with you, and thats one more thing to lose out of your pocket.
I have an iLok a/c but machine register.
If a product needs an iLok key, I probably won't buy it.


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## I like music (Jun 1, 2019)

My worry is about it breaking (or getting stolen) from my laptop. On the move I always think "this will snap off" or snag on something as I move my laptop around.


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## JonSolo (Jun 1, 2019)

Wally Garten said:


> Honestly, I just resent a company demanding a USB slot all to itself. Between MIDI controllers, interfaces, external drives, synths that plug in, etc., open slots are in short supply on a musician's desk. Just strikes me as rude -- especially when they _charge_ for the dongle.



I am unaware of any company that demands a USB slot to itself. My eLicenser has products from at least 6 or 7 different companies, and my iLok maybe 15 different companies. With over 200 products combined between the two, it made trading computers a year a go very easy.

There will always be concerns about products breaking or getting stolen, but that is (sadly) a part of life. I DO wish companies that used these products (since they are license related) would work more with individuals who have been victims of theft or otherwise. But I also understand the potential to abuse such a system.

I get why people do not like dongles, but also feel that being passive about it helps me to sleep better and be more creative.


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## barteredbride (Jun 1, 2019)

ManicMiner said:


> For me, its the price they charge (I think $25) for the privilege of transferring a license. Its the price of the USB stick itself, its the fact that it takes up a USB port, and if you want to use your plugins on another computer you have to take your dongle with you, and thats one more thing to lose out of your pocket.
> I have an iLok a/c but machine register.
> If a product needs an iLok key, I probably won't buy it now.


Yes I remember when I moved house a few years ago and somehow managed to loose my VSL elicenser with around £2000 worth of licenses on the dongle.

It turned up in a random box 3 weeks later.


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## novaburst (Jun 1, 2019)

When think about it if we had a world with out dongle license there would be nothing to rant about, 

I think forums need to have a vent about something, kind of mixes it up.


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## Manuel Stumpf (Jun 1, 2019)

I find the idea of dongles not bad at all.

I can use my software whereever I wish.
New machine, no hassle just bring my dongle with me and I am good.
Dongles will not stop working even if the developer goes out of business at some time (in contrary all online activation using developer specific user accounts will vanish).

Problematic for me are:

licenses that activate to a special hardware signature. When my computer breaks I can only hope to get another activation (based only on generosity of the developer, if they let me or not).
licenses that require to be online to activate (which means the machine must be connected to the internet). Even worse is if I have to be online all the time (not only for activation, no internet connectivity -> no function)
In case your dongle is lost or stolen, well that is everyones own fault. Just protect your dongle.

So in general I like the idea of a dongle. I have my licenses fully under my own control.

The only thing intriguing about dongles is:
What if it breaks? Then all my licenses are lost.
All developers should give you your licenses again, at least if you can prove that your dongle is defective (proove for example by sending it back).
But that they try to charge me insurances (or tell me to buy a dongle every two years) for their anti piracy protection scheme is just ridiculous.


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## DivingInSpace (Jun 1, 2019)

Because it might be the most secure way to do it for the company, but it is the absolutely least secure way for the costumer, as they have to use something that can physically break, be stolen or lost.


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## WindcryMusic (Jun 1, 2019)

I have no less than three reasons for having strictly avoided dongles to date.

I currently have a seven port USB hub on my main studio computer, along with four USB ports on the computer itself. And every single one of those ports (ten in total) is already occupied in the course of my normal studio operations. Similarly, I have exactly 2 USB ports on my portable computer, and when I’m using it for music purposes, both of those are filled as well. So in both cases, needing to use a dongle would require me to daisy-chain a second USB hub in the studio (yuck), or to begin carrying around a USB hub (and the power cable for same, as it would need to be a powered hub) with my mobile setup (also yuck). So that’s the first reason I dislike dongles. 

Second, as other people have said, is the possibility of losing or breaking the dongle and having my studio go down as a result. At least right now, if something would happen to either of my music computers, I would have the other one to fall back on until I could get the problem system up and running again. Compare that to the scenario of having my entire music efforts controlled by the availability of a single tiny dongle, not to mention the associated software of the dongle’s maker, which would introduce a single point of vulnerability that could stop me from making music entirely, and that is something I don’t like at all.

But my final and largest concern is not so much with the dongles as it is with the associated software created by the dongle companies. I especially have a major revulsion to iLok (PACE) based upon my history with them (which I won’t burden this thread with, but you can look at my forum profile for a few details if you would like). I also used to purchase and use Steinberg’s Wavelab many years back, until their own copy protection software caused me (a legitimate, paying owner) so many problems with keeping it operational on my computers that I gave up and moved to something else. Which gives me a major level of distrust of both iLok and eLicensor on top of the general concerns about dongle solutions I’ve detailed above.


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## Wally Garten (Jun 1, 2019)

JonSolo said:


> I am unaware of any company that demands a USB slot to itself.



Fair enough -- maybe I should have been more precise. The only major library company I know of that _requires_ a dongle is VSL. So, for me, acquiring a dongle would be solely for the privilege of using VSL. I would prefer zero dongles, so to acquire one for a single company just doesn't sit right.


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## Mornats (Jun 1, 2019)

I resent the fact that the inconvenience and cost of copy protection is placed on the honest individual who spends their hard earned money on software. I'm a hobbyist, a group where piracy is possibly more prevalent than in pros and I see others get the same software for free without any of the hassle of maintaining licences or buying dongles. It just sucks that I have to contend with that as my reward for being honest and supporting software companies.

Don't get me wrong, I fully support software developers and sample library companies in their efforts to stop the piracy of their products and I don't know how else they'd do it, but it's like buying a DVD and being forced to watch the "don't steal this film" warning. I'm the one who bought it, don't preach to me! Then I think of the people who have just torrented the movie and how they don't have to sit through the FBI chastising them and it makes me think I'm a bit of a mug for being honest.

Plus, as a hobbyist I can safely say there isn't any software that I *need* so I can pick and choose who I buy it from. So I do.


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## LamaRose (Jun 1, 2019)

Dongle = Techno-hemorrhoid


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## d.healey (Jun 1, 2019)

barteredbride said:


> The Big Brother element? Lack of trust?


Mainly this.


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## Raphioli (Jun 1, 2019)

DivingInSpace said:


> but it is the absolutely least secure way for the costumer, as they have to use something that can physically break, be stolen or lost.


Same.

If the dongle breaks or gets stolen, but devs were like "no problem, we'll send a new license right away", I wouldn't mind dongles at all. All I have to do is buy a new dongle.
And as for USB ports, I could just use a USB hub and it'll only take a single port. (at least for me)


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## kitekrazy (Jun 1, 2019)

One of the best anti dongle arguments came from a developer at Spectrasonics. You can probably still find his comments on the Northern Sounds forum. This was when there were far more flaws in iLok. He did not like that hurdle between him and the end user. I still have the 1st iLok that looks like a penis. I'm sure that design was prone to break.
It still has advantages to the end user who has multiple systems. Than again I always support developers who have flexible licensing.
Most of the hate is directed at VSL. I like how Propellerheads does it. I have their dongle that is one on system, the other systems I just log in to the app.
License friendly developers are Image-Line (they probably have the highest use illegal users), Cockos, Mixcraft, Mixbus, Bandlab, Izotope, Melda.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 1, 2019)

Mostly I like the dongles as I can have software on more than the 1 or 2 computers allowed by the licenses. I've also found it is so much easier to load a new computer or hard drive if I don't have to worry about getting another authorization from the software maker who may or may not still be in business. 

That said, my issues with dongles are similar to every one else's. Laptops have less and less USB ports every time I get a new one. I have 4 dongles right now: an iLok, an elicenser, a codemeter, and a USB flash drive with Waves, Plugin Alliance and one other companies authorizations on it. Frankly I just bought a 4 port hub that they stay plugged into and that moves from computer to computer. 

My other complaint is that I have to pay for insurance for all separately if I want them insured. I buy everything on sale, but if I had to replace it all at full price? It would be over $10K. Or maybe $20k? I don't have that kind of money to waste on a hobby 

Would I prefer not having to need a dongle? Yes. Do I understand the need for them? Yes. Does it make me think about buying software then downloading a pirated copy that doesn't need a dongle and storing my dongle somewhere safe so I won't lose it? Yes.


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## robgb (Jun 1, 2019)

1. They take up valuable USB space.
2. They can get lost.
3. They can go bad.
4. Recovery policies differ from developer to developer.
5. Developers tacitly assume you are a pirate who can't be trusted not to share your libraries.
6. YOU have to purchase an additional piece of hardware for THEIR protection, not yours.
7. They expect YOU to purchase a new dongle every couple years to avoid failure.
8. To prevent having to pay exorbitant replacement prices, some developers make YOU pay for insurance for THEIR piracy protection.


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## Quasar (Jun 1, 2019)

Raphioli said:


> Same.
> 
> If the dongle breaks or gets stolen, but devs were like "no problem, we'll send a new license right away", I wouldn't mind dongles at all. All I have to do is buy a new dongle.
> And as for USB ports, I could just use a USB hub and it'll only take a single port. (at least for me)


For an *extra fee*, iLok has something called Zero Downtime, which will supposedly get you up and running quickly after a lost, broken or stolen dongle. So not only do they place the cost of their oppressive, draconian CP onto the end-user, but they actually charge you a premium to mitigate the risk that they themselves have created. It's nothing more than a Mafia-like protection racket...

...Dongles, subscriptions, mandatory online activation; these are all corporofascist business models exist for no other reason than to protect capital interest at the expense of the honest end-user. They are morally criminal and the only reason they exist is because not enough people have the integrity to boycott them. The only reason they are legal at all is because laws in capitalistic societies are bought and paid for by the profit-driven entities who profit from them.


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## zimm83 (Jun 1, 2019)

USB : NONSENSE .
Online activation : OK.
Will never, never have an usb key. 
Nonsense.


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## zimm83 (Jun 1, 2019)

LamaRose said:


> Dongle = Techno-hemorrhoid


Yeah ! That's it !


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## lux (Jun 1, 2019)

my issue with dongles is that I use two computers in two different places, it's always me but I use alternatively two setups, one for studio and one at home.

I'm such a disaster in keeping things in good shape and moving a dongle between two setups means loosing the dongle or destroying it in a breeze. I think a dongle license should work for two separate dongles, as long as it's me using it. Most software based authorization systems allow me to do that.

As a matter of fact, while I never use them concurrency, I have two separate licenses with two different dongles for the (very few) softwares who actually use a dongle. Namely Cubase and Refx Nexus. I had to spend twice while a more flexible license would have worked miracles in my case.

Then I simply stay away of any other product based on dongles, that's a fact.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Jun 1, 2019)

The dongles exist for one reason: to protect developers from piracy. Developers spend a lot of money and time creating libraries and they are pirated the next day. Friends of mine have had their companies go out of business at great personal and professional loss. I'm sympathetic to that and it is no sacrifice for me to use a dongle to help developers stay in business. 

However, there are great differences in how each company handles things if there is a problem. If you own a Steinberg product, you still own it if anything happens to the dongle. You can phone them, get through immediately, and they will try to get you up and running at no extra charge, aside from buying a new dongle, if that is necessary. With the same dongle, VSL has a very different policy. My objection is not to the dongle, but to the way VSL handles it, which I think is unjust. I have VE Pro, which is one of a kind product, but I will never buy any instruments from them, until they reconsider.

For me it's not an issue of dongles or copy-protection schemes, it's an issue of what companies I choose to do business with, based on how they treat their customers.

At this point, I won't patronize any company that expects me to pay more after I have purchased their products, like Waves. I will never buy another Waves plugin. From what my ears are able to discern at my age, there's nothing they sell that isn't available in equal or better quality from other companies. If the day ever comes that all the Waves plugins I own will stop working unless I send them a few hundred bucks, I will live without those plugins.


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 1, 2019)

If you want to be entertained and you know professional network guys ask them to do a bit of research about ilok and tell you what they think. A real pro can turn vermilion in the face and invent new expletives when discussing ilok. But you know they are obsessed with computer security and hate vulnerabilities.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jun 1, 2019)

+1 for what @TigerTheFrog said above. I'm sympathetic to developers, many of whom are fellow members of this forum, and don't mind dongles. I've never had a problem in 10+ years of use, and while I understand a lot of the criticisms that people have mentioned, they work fine 98% of the time and aren't so bad.

...Except VSL. I think they should change their policy, because the 2% of the time something does go wrong, you should not have to repurchase their products. That alone is reason to think twice about investing in VSL.


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## robgb (Jun 1, 2019)

TigerTheFrog said:


> The dongles exist for one reason: to protect developers from piracy.


I fully support protecting developers from piracy, but not at the expense of the consumer. iLok at least has the option of a computer only version of protection and it works just fine. There's no reason to use a hardware solution.


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## WhiteNoiz (Jun 1, 2019)

I can certainly largely agree with the perspective that it's not maybe so much the dongle itself, but the policies that surround it. In essence you're still limited but it can be made palatable, especially considering many people make money from it and don't just toy around, so it can be a logical trade-off.

What would make it more bearable would probably be having companies *obligated by law* to offer trials, limited time refunds, resales, license recoveries etc. if they use heavy-handed DRM, since they can essentially brick the products (or they can be bricked by malfunctions) as it now very closely resembles a physical product and not just a copy-paste digital asset (which, confusingly, it still is, but pseudo-limited, and what's even weirder is that that replacement process is still vastly cheaper and easier compared to replacing a physical product, which is what they actually charge you extra for).

There are still advantages to how things are right now which have been mentioned.

Ultimately, it falls to the user to decide, but I think some legal steps can still be taken; or at least be discussed and tested.

Here's a recent example too (not direct comparison, but the reasoning is similar):
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sony-is-being-sued-in-australia-for-not-offering-p/1100-6467209/
https://www.techradar.com/news/sony...t-for-illegal-playstation-store-refund-policy

Although this can also potentially be problematic, depending on how you define the use cases, the estimation of degrees of "misrepresented", "problematic" or "unusable" etc.


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## Paul Grymaud (Jun 1, 2019)

*Are You an Ilok or an e-Licencer partisan ?*











*None of them !*


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## David Chappell (Jun 1, 2019)

Oooh I've got some hate to pile on

Plugins using ilok will often corrupt on reopening a cubase project, crashing cubase unless I remove that plugin. The only solution has been to stop using ilok plugins on any project I ever need to reopen. I don't know - or care - if it's been fixed; that was a sufficient breach of trust for me to immediately disqualify any new plugin that uses ilok.

I won't go anywhere near VSL, as if the dongle gets lost/ broken, they won't just restore your licenses; no, you have to buy them again (at an, ahem, "generous" 50% discount, I believe). Reprehensible policy.

Ditto the ilok zero downtime con. Lumping extra, unnecessary costs on paying customers is quite the dick move.

There are more than enough developers that make fantastic products and don't require ilok - u-he, fabfilter, valhalla, spectrasonics, to name but a few - so I don't especially feel like I'm missing out now that I've stopped buying any new plugins that require ilok.


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## X-Bassist (Jun 1, 2019)

I thought VSL had changed their policy a few months ago about having to rebuy instruments if the e-licenser died (can’t remember if it’s “insurance” you have to pay for now yearly- or if I dreamt all this  ). This old policy of rebuying instruments has kept me from buying any VSL instruments as well (although I keep upgrading VEPro and getting the free instruments with it. Can anyone confirm or deny this new policy?

I’m fine with it being a dream if that’s what it was. :D


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## X-Bassist (Jun 1, 2019)

David Chappell said:


> Oooh I've got some hate to pile on
> 
> Plugins using ilok will often corrupt on reopening a cubase project, crashing cubase unless I remove that plugin. The only solution has been to stop using ilok plugins on any project I ever need to reopen. I don't know - or care - if it's been fixed; that was a sufficient breach of trust for me to immediately disqualify any new plugin that uses ilok.
> 
> ...



I use Cubase and never had this problem. Are you sure it’s not the plugin itself? (which HAS happened to me, but they were not iLok plugins). The idea that ANY iLok plugin would do this is a pretty big deal. I think we would have heard this from the hundreds of Cubase users here. But that’s not to say it isn’t a reality in your case, just seems unusual.


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## X-Bassist (Jun 1, 2019)

novaburst said:


> When think about it if we had a world with out dongle license there would be nothing to rant about,
> 
> I think forums need to have a vent about something, kind of mixes it up.



So... these dongles where actually all about keeping us from thinking about how the doubling of computer speeds every year or two has crashed and burned?!? (Since 2013?... I think?).

Brilliant!!! Yes, that’s my next complaint (Got to be something, huh?)


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## babylonwaves (Jun 1, 2019)

David Chappell said:


> Plugins using ilok will often corrupt on reopening a cubase project, crashing cubase unless I remove that plugin.


this is just bullshit. fix your computer.


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## David Chappell (Jun 1, 2019)

X-Bassist said:


> I use Cubase and never had this problem. Are you sure it’s not the plugin itself? (which HAS happened to me, but they were not iLok plugins). The idea that ANY iLok plugin would do this is a pretty big deal. I think we would have heard this from the hundreds of Cubase users here. But that’s not to say it isn’t a reality in your case, just seems unusual.


I'm not sure how unusual it is, but it was confirmed by Steinberg support that it's an ilok issue, and they indicated that I wasn't the only one with the issue.



babylonwaves said:


> this is just bullshit. fix your computer.


Incorrect, it's very much an ilok issue confirmed by a Steinberg developer:

'The crash dump hints at an issue we think is related to Pace (the iLok) and the QL Spaces plug-in. But it seems that Pace is to blame here as their protection and multithreading code don't go along very well in this case.
This is the very technical explanation: "On Windows Pace installs a hook inside the CreateThread call to temporary code during the authorization. A call to CreateThread from another thread might run through that temporary code, when returning from CreateThread the temporary code might have already vanished, i.e. freed, the result is such a crash." '

also:

'There are other reports on similar issues with iLok protected plug-ins but it also seems to be depending on the plug-in itself whether it works or not.
At this point I can only hope that plug-in and iLok updates will help and that Pace can address the issue mentioned earlier on.'


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## Philip Vasta (Jun 1, 2019)

First of all, I totally understand developers needing to protect themselves from people who take advantage of piracy - and there are many of those people. Second, a dongle can, in some circumstances, be a nice and easy, plug and play kind of thing.

That being said, I'm really averse to the hoops you have to jump through if this little dongle actually fails, or I misplace it or whatever. I prefer the way licensing is handled by Microsoft with Office 365 and by Bitwig: Quick online authorization for 3 computers (more for Office 365). If you need to activate the license on a new computer, it's as simple as logging into your account online and deactivating the old one. It protects the developer, and it's super easy for the customer.


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## Mornats (Jun 1, 2019)

Having to buy an ilok is, to me, like a company saying "thanks for buying our product, now pay us $25 as we don't believe you bought it".


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## pk-1 (Jun 1, 2019)

robgb said:


> iLok at least has the option of a computer only version of protection and it works just fine. There's no reason to use a hardware solution.



This is also a hardware solution, the license is just bound to the hardware of your computer rather than an external dongle. But it's good of course to have the choice, depending on your usage scenarios. I like companies that allow two activations per license, so I can have one on my computer and one on a dongle.


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## 667 (Jun 1, 2019)

I'll give another reason: PACE is actively trying to prevent paying customers from contacting them.

If you want to ask a question you cannot. Their online troubleshooter is not just garbage, but actively so: it works very hard to prevent you from contacting them. If you have a question not on the troubleshooter? Too bad. You must go through our flow. Some just end with an answer, you have to work very hard to find one that has a 'create support ticket' option. And it may or may not apply to your case, but as a result of it being forced via code/forms, each is different and asks different questions.

In the industry this is known as 'dark patterns'.
https://www.darkpatterns.org/

For example you can get there saying you can't log in, but it asks for all your personal information (birthdate etc.) to verify your identity. But maybe you just want to email them to ask which vendors are supporting iLok Cloud, because the cloud icon is greyed out on all the 100+ plugins you own but are very curious about it. Which is my case.

But PACE says, no, we hate you, we hate all customers, so go pound sand.

I can't imagine having to deal with this company in any serious capacity but perhaps once you buy their protection money (zdt) you can get treated like a human being instead of a dog.

Seriously [email protected]#[email protected]! PACE. Garbage company.


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## X-Bassist (Jun 1, 2019)

667 said:


> I'll give another reason: PACE is actively trying to prevent paying customers from contacting them.
> 
> If you want to ask a question you cannot. Their online troubleshooter is not just garbage, but actively so: it works very hard to prevent you from contacting them. If you have a question not on the troubleshooter? Too bad. You must go through our flow. Some just end with an answer, you have to work very hard to find one that has a 'create support ticket' option. And it may or may not apply to your case, but as a result of it being forced via code/forms, each is different and asks different questions.
> 
> ...



Actually I found an iLok support phone number pretty easily, called it, got a support tech in a few minutes of waiting, who helped me resolve the issue. Crazy, huh?

Perhaps it was because I called and no one likes to use a telephone anymore. When everyone was on hold with tech support I was the first person to be emailing them with questions. But now that everyone wants an online answer or direct email (which was common years ago and now very rare), I just went back to calling them.

Surprisingly the phone lines are more open nowadays. 

Seriously, if I went through the hoops you did perhaps I would be saying the same things. If I wasn’t a customer I probably wouldn’t think of calling them either. I agree with you, they should be easier to get a hold of.


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## Lcas (Jun 1, 2019)

Antipiracy are like certain types of lawyers and special interest groups. It hamstrings the paying customer and does nothing but incentivize people in the scene to find a way around it.

Total joke that employs people coming from a perspective where everyone is the enemy and solving the problem they are supposed to be paid for would be detrimental to their income.

They shove their noses into other people's business in the most obnoxious ways just to remind you that they exist and need your support.

They invent problems that aren't even real so they have a reason to exist.


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## PaulieDC (Jun 1, 2019)

barteredbride said:


> Innocent question honestly.
> 
> I've always had to use one for VSL libraries, but never really thought about it.
> 
> ...


Convenience. We’re moving towards a simpler authentication mindset in technology. A USB solution is very 1990s. Many of us push to carry less now: we don’t want car keys, credit cards, cards for bonus points at supermarkets (forget checkbooks), cash, you name it. Bugs me that I have to carry an insurance card and drivers license, having an online cloud-based daily routine is easier. I pay almost everything with my iPhone, practically every store takes it now. If they don’t, I drive by. Sounds pretty millennial... ha, I was alive when Kennedy got shot, lol.

I switched from Studio One to Cubase and now have a dependency on a usb stick on my tower DAW. If I want to quickly grab my laptop bag for a last minute recording session that someone called me for, I have to remember to remove that stick?? Studio One gives you FIVE INSTALLS with a username and password. Anyone ever get to a place with your laptop and realize you don’t have the dongle? Don’t need stupid situations like that to happen. SO, during this 30th anniversary sale I bought Cubase 10 Pro AGAIN for my laptop, fortunately at half price. And another Steinberg Key. Actually Sweetwater was out of stock so they sent a Vienna Key, same thing. Those things are mandatory but not always easy to find in stock. Ridiculous. I’m actually ticked at PreSonus that they haven’t gotten MIDI and multi core and Notion support on i9 processors going, I could be using what I paid for with 3 activations leftover for fun. Oh well. Steinberg wins, I bought their stuff twice to have convenience. Except that I still need to use the USB stick. Maybe instead I’ll listen to Flock of Seagulls in my Pontiac Fiero while wearing and a Swatch and an Izod shirt with the collar turned up. Oh, Steinberg, we’re not in that decade? Could have fooled me.
Signed,
Having Sarcastic Fun in Arizona (Hey, who broke my Sony Walkman???)


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## pk-1 (Jun 1, 2019)

Philip Vasta said:


> I prefer the way licensing is handled by Microsoft with Office 365 and by Bitwig ...



Pretty much everybody does. I think it is safe to assume that companies running dongle-based protection schemes don't do it to harass their customers.



Philip Vasta said:


> It protects the developer ...



That's the point - it doesn't.

There's currently only two protection schemes that actually work: Hardware-based (dongle, TPM, machine certificates, ...) and regular online license validation. As many music production systems, particularly in the professional world, are operated offline, the second option is not really viable for DAW/plugin/... companies.

I'm certainly not defending any vendors of any protection technology in particular, but for the developer behind it, there's really not that much choice. The only reasonable alternative is to build a certain amount of piracy into your business case, hoping that a sufficient number of customers pay for your product.


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## 667 (Jun 1, 2019)

X-Bassist said:


> Actually I found an iLok support phone number pretty easily, called it, got a support tech in a few minutes of waiting, who helped me resolve the issue. Crazy, huh?


How did you find a phone number? I logged in with my ilok account and clicked 'support' it's sure not there in fact says "we do not provide phone support you must use our support page" which as I mentioned is garbage:


PACE'S garbage customer-hating support page said:


> Unfortunately, we are not able to offer telephone support, but you may contact our support team by
> using the Troubleshooting Guide below.



I also tried their site map, but I found no contact info there, and the 'support' link brings you back to their garbage troubleshooter.

I went to their main page looking for the 'contact us' link but-- surprise!-- none there. Not even an 'about us' which also sometimes hides contact info. "Privacy Policy / Terms of Use / Sitemap" on the footer, that's it.

If there's a phone number, they keep it very much hidden on purpose, so basically they are a customer-hating company and we should all hate them back. I certainly do.


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## pk-1 (Jun 1, 2019)

Lcas said:


> Antipiracy are like certain types of lawyers and special interest groups.
> [...]
> They invent problems that aren't even real so they have a reason to exist.



_"[...] It is estimated that illegal copying of software costs the computer industry between 10 billion and 12 billion dollars every year — funds that would go a long way toward keeping the software industry healthy and innovative. Ultimately, software piracy hurts everyone. For one thing, developers lose money that they could use to improve products, support, and documentation for their customers. In some cases, they are forced to charge higher prices to recoup their development costs; as a result, honest customers have to pay more. And whenever developers cannot afford to invest in new ventures and markets, innovation and product availability is hindered."
_
(https://doi.org/10.1201/1086/43307.8.4.20000101/31078.5)


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## handz (Jun 1, 2019)

Lack of trust. 
Blocking one USB port on my computer ( imagine you are on laptop... sucks) 
The fact that there are more standards needing different dongles (insane) 
The fact these are still insanely expensive (how on earth they not provide you with one for free - the software that we are buying is not cheap)


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## Lcas (Jun 1, 2019)

pk-1 said:


> _"[...] It is estimated that illegal copying of software costs the computer industry between 10 billion and 12 billion dollars every year — funds that would go a long way toward keeping the software industry healthy and innovative. Ultimately, software piracy hurts everyone. For one thing, developers lose money that they could use to improve products, support, and documentation for their customers. In some cases, they are forced to charge higher prices to recoup their development costs; as a result, honest customers have to pay more. And whenever developers cannot afford to invest in new ventures and markets, innovation and product availability is hindered."
> _
> (https://doi.org/10.1201/1086/43307.8.4.20000101/31078.5)


I know it looks like I'm saying piracy isn't real. My opinion is that it is a problem that can't be solved by drm.

People's conscience is the only real antipiracy. They either think it's stealing, or they don't. Or they don't even have a problem with stealing because it's an acceptable target, or theft just isn't a concern.

So spending more time and effort to implement drm, and then even more to actually enforce it, makes things worse because it is a total waste.

We are going to a place where there is nearly zero barrier to entry. It is getting easier and easier for some small group of people to create alternatives to DAW, samplers, and libraries. They wouldn't be as good but they would be good enough and would be free(ish) of whatever drm is implemented by AAA companies.

So it's like, even in some weird future where everything is some sort of biometric drm that actually works, a sane and acceptable alternative will be right around the corner.

Sorry for somewhat off-topic nonsense but I felt like it was an interesting thing to think about so why not


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## Geocranium (Jun 1, 2019)

For me, it's because it's just about the worst option convenience-wise. Right now I carry around my elicenser to and from work so that I can use Cubase at home and at work. Another piece of software I do the same with is Ozone and RX6, and iZotope makes this process 1000 times easier. All I have to do is log in and activate the product with my account and I'm good to go. 

I wish every company and piece of software could work like this. Just let me activate it where ever and let me get to work.


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## pk-1 (Jun 1, 2019)

Geocranium said:


> Right now I carry around my elicenser to and from work so that I can use Cubase at home and at work. Another piece of software I do the same with is Ozone and RX6, and iZotope makes this process 1000 times easier. All I have to do is log in and activate the product with my account and I'm good to go.
> 
> I wish every company and piece of software could work like this. Just let me activate it where ever and let me get to work.



IZotope products can be (have been) hacked, Cubase not. It's as simple as that.

Companies can loose revenue because their products are pirated, or because people won't buy it as long as they require a dongle. They need to the maths to see what's best for them. And I'm fairly sure they have their reasons.


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## Leon Portelance (Jun 1, 2019)

I have 3 iLoks and 3 Steinberg keys. Never had any problems using them. My computers are only for music.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 1, 2019)

I'm not sure what it is about music production software that requires a dongle when virtually every other type of software in existence doesn't. I've never been required to buy a dongle to use Word, Quicken, or countless other software apps from developers large and small. Somehow, the makers of these products manage to survive and even thrive.

Best,

Geoff


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## MartinH. (Jun 1, 2019)

If piracy was the threat to sales that the drm providers want their customers to think it is, ALL of the DRM-free or essentially DRM-free (e.g. offline serial number check on install, but also allowing portable install and never ending trial phases like last I checked Reaper provides) products would have gone under and the respective companies folded. Spoiler: they haven't.

And wasn't there a dev who paid a handsome 5 figure sum for iLok protection and still got cracked close to release?

U-he employs a clever and ethical form of DRM that even manages to convert some pirates over to paying customers and he has the sales graphs to back it up. Don't have the link, but I think it was on KVR where the dev went into details, it was a fascinating read.

Treating 100% of piracy as 100% lost sales is incredibly naive. Piracy isn't done on a "I *really *need this right now and would buy it if I couldn't pirate it"-basis, much is just "collected" and some never even used/watched/listened to once, because it's so easy to acquire mountains of stuff that no one will ever have the time to dig through if you don't pay for anything. Also you're completely discounting the long term effect of lowered barrier to entry through piracy that gets people into hobbyist composing that otherwise would never have picked it up because they'd need to drop serious cash just to try it out, because there are no trials for most of the libraries. Sooner or later some of them will want to go legit and start buying the stuff.
When Napster was introduced, CD sales went *up*.
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/21/technology/study-says-that-napster-increases-music-sales.html



> "Because Napster users are music enthusiasts, it's logical to believe that they are more likely ... to increase their music spending in the future," said Jupiter analyst Aram Sinnreich. "But when we conducted our consumer survey, ... we still found that Napster usage is one of the strongest determinants of increased music buying."





> Jupiter's Sinnreich acknowledged the importance of the traditional retailers. "But the consumer data we have proves that all online music activity drives more purchases, not just online spending, but traditional retailers, as well."




The biggest threat for a dev's revenue imho are second hand sales, because they actively take money out of their pockets that legit customers were willing to spend on the products. That's why so few allow them.


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## Lcas (Jun 1, 2019)

Geoff Grace said:


> I'm not sure what it is about music production software that requires a dongle when virtually every other type of software in existence doesn't. I've never been required to buy a dongle to use Word, Quicken, or countless other software apps from developers large and small. Somehow, the makers of these products manage to survive and even thrive.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff


They got talked into buying the protection plan by the cashier


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2019)

bigcat1969 said:


> If you want to be entertained and you know professional network guys ask them to do a bit of research about ilok and tell you what they think. A real pro can turn vermilion in the face and invent new expletives when discussing ilok. But you know they are obsessed with computer security and hate vulnerabilities.



Are you saying it's not secure, or that the dongles disappear and break?

(Nice turns of phrase, by the way - I'm definitely stealing those sometime.  )


----------



## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2019)

Leon Portelance said:


> I have 3 iLoks and 3 Steinberg keys. Never had any problems using them. My computers are only for music.



I have at least that many dongles, my computers are for everything (not just music), and I've never had any problems using them.

Well, the only issue I've had is that the new Play won't launch if you have an original iLok connected to your computer. But EW's tech support person figured that out.

Now, charging customers to insure the licenses stored on them, well, I'm repeating myself.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 1, 2019)

David Chappell said:


> Incorrect, it's very much an ilok issue confirmed by a Steinberg developer:


from what steinberg support states, it is an EW issue. it's down to then how they implement the CP. and as per your first post, what are the other plug-ins? sorry for blaming your computer, that was wrong. but i'm still interested in learning if this is one plug-in or many.


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 1, 2019)

I had multiple problems during the '90s and '00s with dongles and other forms of copy protection. In fact, I estimate that I lost a week of my life to copy protection gone awry. Fortunately, I've had no problems in that regard for over a decade now.

I posted about more than one such experience back in 2001 in a forum hosted by the late Roger Nichols. If you're interested in reading about copy protection problems in the early days of software instruments, feel free to click on the link below:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/403407/all/Nightmare_Experiences_with_Cop (Nightmare Experiences with &quot;Copy Protection&quot;)

(My posts are under the screen name "soapbox" in that thread.)

I think I had pretty good reasons for hating dongles back then. Now, my main gripe is the extra expense of buying dongles, USB hubs, and dongle insurance.

Best,

Geoff


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 1, 2019)

I'm not tech enough to really understand Nick, plus it is too much fun to watch the reactions instead actually listening! Basically anything that has really low level access to your computer can do things like decide if your computer should be allowed to come on, spy on everything you are doing etc.. To be fair Microsoft also does all this as your OS and can refuse to run the OS after a hardware upgrade. There can be conflicts with MS updating and low level security thinking something is wrong and refusing to allow certain programs to run. Again I'm not really sure about the details, ILok is just allowed a ton of privileges which other programs would never ask for or receive. I had the software version on my machine in the past and running diagnostics it seemed like everything was slower and was running through an extra layer of 'stuff'. Since I do lots of things like gaming that I want to execute as fast as possible this was a bad thing for me and only a bootdisk reformat would remove the issue. So not for me, but many people have music only computers and careers which have vastly different requirements. Anyway I use Steam and Oculus VR (Facebook is watching you) so I'm not exactly in a position to cast too many stones on privacy and security issues.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2019)

bigcat1969 said:


> Basically anything that has really low level access to your computer can do things like decide if your computer should be allowed to come on, spy on everything you are doing etc.



I don't know how iLok or eLicenser works, but does anyone really suspect PACE or Yamaha of spying on musicians? What could be more boring for them?

There are all kinds of unlikely-sounding things that it's totally rational to worry about, but this is really low on my list. Bear in mind that - unless something's changed - these companies only service music software. Windows, okay, not impossible. But not software protection dongles.



bigcat1969 said:


> ILok is just allowed a ton of privileges which other programs would never ask for or receive



It checks whether your iLok-protected programs are authorized when you launch them!



bigcat1969 said:


> had the software version on my machine in the past and running diagnostics it seemed like everything was slower and was running through an extra layer of 'stuff'.



Not a violation of the laws of physics, but close. I'm highly skeptical. Even if PACE checks itself periodically, it's very unlikely to slow down your system.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2019)

bigcat1969 said:


> plus it is too much fun to watch the reactions instead actually listening



Now that I understand. Nothing like a crimson nerd.


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## d.healey (Jun 1, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> but does anyone really suspect PACE or Yamaha of spying on musicians?


If you have a dongle that requires a live connection to run a piece of software then the server that the dongle is talking to is aware of every time you use that piece of software, how long you use it for, the hours you use it most often, and when you're not using it. If you bought a toilet and the manufacturer kept track of your use of it in this manner I think you would call it spying, certainly an invasion of privacy.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2019)

d.healey said:


> If you have a dongle that requires a live connection to run a piece of software then the server that the dongle is talking to is aware of every time you use that piece of software, how long you use it for, the hours you use it most often, and when you're not using it. If you bought a toilet and the manufacturer kept track of your use of it in this manner I think you would call it spying, certainly an invasion of privacy.



If anyone is interested in when I use the toilet, please let me know and I'll be happy to text you.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2019)

Oh - do I have to purchase Zero Dookertime insurance?


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## Quasar (Jun 1, 2019)

d.healey said:


> If you have a dongle that requires a live connection to run a piece of software then the server that the dongle is talking to is aware of every time you use that piece of software, how long you use it for, the hours you use it most often, and when you're not using it. If you bought a toilet and the manufacturer kept track of your use of it in this manner I think you would call it spying, certainly an invasion of privacy.


Is that why I've been seeing so many ads for laxatives when I browse the web? Despite the fact that I never search for them?


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## Geoff Grace (Jun 1, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> If anyone is interested in when I use the toilet, please let me know and I'll be happy to text you.


Perhaps you can exchange bathroom schedules with Sheldon Cooper.

Best,

Geoff


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## d.healey (Jun 1, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> If anyone is interested in when I use the toilet, please let me know and I'll be happy to text you.


I dread the day AI toilets arrive...


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## bill5 (Jun 1, 2019)

Wow did this thread hit a nerve or what...my reasons have already been stated and then some. I will not buy software that requires it.


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## dzilizzi (Jun 1, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Oh - do I have to purchase Zero Dookertime insurance?


Um, yes if you are expecting your commode to suddenly crash, I mean back up.

It does seem funny that backing up your computer is good, but backing up your toilet isn't a good idea. 
Okay, probably not good to get me started. LOL! I'm not crazy about the fact that Facebook and MS "spy" on me. I already have Google and Amazon doing it. And now iLok, elicenser and who knows who else. Though I guess if they want to steal my amazing music? It won't do them much good.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 1, 2019)

"A straight flush beats a full house."

- a plumber's truck I saw.


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## bill5 (Jun 1, 2019)

Dumb joke.

Yes I laughed.


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## Zero&One (Jun 2, 2019)

I've got both USB offerings. Slate Digital and ReFx provided them for free so I can't grumble. I'd rather not have them as loss/theft is always on my mind.

Piracy argument always interests me though. NI must be one of the biggest devs surely? And their products are acquired by theft considerably.
So why haven't they gone down that route, but chose a simple and easy method. Maybe an easy to use method, good pricing, trust to existing users and a relatively painless transfer policy isn't so bad after all?


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## MartinH. (Jun 2, 2019)

d.healey said:


> If you have a dongle that requires a live connection to run a piece of software then the server that the dongle is talking to is aware of every time you use that piece of software, how long you use it for, the hours you use it most often, and when you're not using it. If you bought a toilet and the manufacturer kept track of your use of it in this manner I think you would call it spying, certainly an invasion of privacy.



Couldn't you send a GDPR request to them and have a look at the data they are collecting about you?


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## pk-1 (Jun 2, 2019)

d.healey said:


> If you have a dongle that requires a live connection to run a piece of software [...]



? It is exactly the virtue of hardware-based protection schemes that they _don't_ require an internet connection to work.


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## Per Boysen (Jun 2, 2019)

Since I moved my studio space one and a half year ago the iLook is still not found. Missing the GRM Tools but for most other stuff I have worked out other solutions. I think people dislike dongles because life as a musician is a constant struggle to make optimal space for music within your daily available 24 hours, and a risk to have your creative flow stopped is making it hard to focus for some.


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## pk-1 (Jun 2, 2019)

Geoff Grace said:


> I'm not sure what it is about music production software that requires a dongle when virtually every other type of software in existence doesn't. I've never been required to buy a dongle to use Word, Quicken, or countless other software apps from developers large and small.



These are mass market products, running on a completely different business model.

In small/specialized/vertical markets, dongles are actually quite common.

(Just earlier this week, I installed one for Heidelberg Prinect Signa Station, a software system for page impositioning and sheet assembly. If you would be working in the printing industry, you would know it ... like you know ProTools if you're into music production.)

Taking a broader view on software license management, you'll see that Pace, being kind of the number one in the music production arena, is really a niche provider in a niche market.


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## d.healey (Jun 2, 2019)

pk-1 said:


> ? It is exactly the virtue of hardware-based protection schemes that they _don't_ require an internet connection to work.


My mistake, I thought iLok and such required an active network connection to function.


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## David Chappell (Jun 2, 2019)

babylonwaves said:


> from what steinberg support states, it is an EW issue. it's down to then how they implement the CP. and as per your first post, what are the other plug-ins? sorry for blaming your computer, that was wrong. but i'm still interested in learning if this is one plug-in or many.


No worries! Ones I identified - spaces/ play, adaptiverb, blackhole, soundtoys panman/ decapitator. That was just trial and error disabling plugins until the project loaded again. That's pretty much every ilok based dev I have plugins from. Not an exhaustive list either, those are just the ones that were identified in the months until Steinberg pointed to it being an ilok issue. Since stopping use of ilok plugins, I've not had a repeat of the issue - that's coming up on 2 years since I first experienced it.


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## Geocranium (Jun 2, 2019)

pk-1 said:


> These are mass market products, running on a completely different business model.
> 
> In small/specialized/vertical markets, dongles are actually quite common.
> 
> ...



But is this true for other creative fields? For example, Adobe and Autodesk don't require the use of dongles. In film, animation, design, or illustration I can't think of one piece of mainstream software that requires a dongle. I told one of my coworkers about using a dongle to use Cubase, and he was a little floored. It seems like the music software business is lagging way behind in terms of DRM.


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## pk-1 (Jun 2, 2019)

Geocranium said:


> Adobe and Autodesk don't require the use of dongles.



Never dealt with Autodesk, but Adobe requires online validation of the Creative Cloud subscription.

As I said above, this is indeed an alternative to hardware protection, but not viable in application domains where a significant amount of systems is operated offline.


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## MartinH. (Jun 2, 2019)

Geocranium said:


> But is this true for other creative fields? For example, Adobe and Autodesk don't require the use of dongles. In film, animation, design, or illustration I can't think of one piece of mainstream software that requires a dongle. I told one of my coworkers about using a dongle to use Cubase, and he was a little floored. It seems like the music software business is lagging way behind in terms of DRM.



Autodesk is a different kind of evil, not really a lesser one from what I've heard.


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## babylonwaves (Jun 2, 2019)

David Chappell said:


> No worries! Ones I identified - spaces/ play, adaptiverb, blackhole, soundtoys panman/ decapitator. That was just trial and error disabling plugins until the project loaded again. That's pretty much every ilok based dev I have plugins from. Not an exhaustive list either, those are just the ones that were identified in the months until Steinberg pointed to it being an ilok issue. Since stopping use of ilok plugins, I've not had a repeat of the issue - that's coming up on 2 years since I first experienced it.



David, I don't get that. You've bought all those plug-ins from different manufacturers and you've just stopped using them all because you believe that the common nominator, PACE, is just not working. I don't know if you were in contact with eventide, soundtoys, EW, zynaptiq etc. but if you were, they surely didn't tell you in unison that this is just a PACE issue they can't do anything about. An issue you can google and you don't really find a screaming crowed of angry windows/cubase/soundtoys users. I don't want to sidetrack this discussion further but I believe you can solve your issue. if you like, send me a PM and I'll try to help you with that.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jun 2, 2019)

bill5 said:


> Dumb joke.
> 
> Yes I laughed.



I really did see that truck!


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## bigcat1969 (Jun 2, 2019)

I may not know what i'm talking about but I can help derail a tread with the best of them. The penny for my thoughts derails the train.


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## tmhuud (Jun 2, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> "A straight flush beats a full house."
> 
> - a plumber's truck I saw.


That's a great one Nick. I love plumbers quotes. Here's one from my best friends dad (who was a sewage contractor for over 50 years) "People often ask me what I do. I always tell them. You want to know what happens after you flush? Well, thats when I take over."


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## dzilizzi (Jun 2, 2019)

This was a while ago, but when I worked at this one place, we used ACL, a database program that could manipulate huge databases, but it required a dongle to use. It was easy to use, a really great program. The dongle cost something like $10k, at least that was what I was told. It plugged into the serial port, which tells how long ago this was. (Late 90's early 2000's) I'm guessing it still requires a dongle or something because my current job uses something that is not as good but doesn't require any other equipment to run. We asked for ACL, but they said it was too expensive. I'm thinking they couldn't figure out how to move the dongles around to the various offices since we are located across the country. The current program can be run from a central server. 

So, not just music software.


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## MatFluor (Jun 2, 2019)

Same with a great piece of software my wife sometimes has to work with in Restauration/Conservation to map damages, structure of buildings and whatnot.
Really expensive piece of software, industry-standard - with Dongle.

I personally don't like dongles as well. At home I don't care, I have my two VEP slaves and am done. But when I work mobile, I want to keep it lean and not use my valuable USB ports. One of the reasons I didn't switch to Dorico fully yet, because at time I take my laptop with me to do some work, but then I would have to take a dongle with me. The risk of damage is far higher when mobile. If I stay at one Computer, Dorico doesn't need a Dongle. I haven't tried a cumbersome "Waves" approach, deactivating on my main, then reactivating on my laptop etc
If I would just change location from "home studio" to "studio across town", not a big problem. I'm all in for different but secure solutions. I mean - dongles have been cracked ages ago already (I remember a music producer 15 years ago with a cracked Cubase version), so it's not that Dongles would eliminate that ...

Plus of course, as mentioned Everytime that topic comes up, the various policies, some more some less consumer friendly. Ok, I buy new dongles every two years for my VEP and I'm covered for standard stuff. I don't take it anywhere, so the risk is minimal.


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## FrontierSoundFX (Jun 2, 2019)

Wally Garten said:


> Honestly, I just resent a company demanding a USB slot all to itself. Between MIDI controllers, interfaces, external drives, synths that plug in, etc., open slots are in short supply on a musician's desk. Just strikes me as rude -- especially when they _charge_ for the dongle.



Thankfully ProTools can now work without the ilok as long as you are connected to the internet. I never liked needing to run anything important to my session through a usb hub, but the ilok forced me to for a long while


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## Arise (Jun 4, 2019)

Just a note, Steinberg are working on a system to replace the dongle, it seems. It will apparently require an internet connection to periodically keep checking for the license and to confirm it.
At least this is what I saw a Steinberg Dev/employee mention on the forums last year. Don't know how far that has come, or if it's been cancelled or whatnot.


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## Lcas (Jun 5, 2019)

If I had to choose between usb and phoning home I definitely prefer usb because at least you can work offline. The whole idea is so ridiculous though.

Look at eastwest and vsl. So many more people would be all over their stuff if they got rid of ilok/elicenser. It's not like they are getting business from people who pirate kontakt stuff while buying from eastwest and vsl. They are throwing away money to aquire the services of ilok and friends, just so they can throw away a lot more money driving away customers. 

I get cutting out the NI middleman, but why replace them with another one that narrows your market? Play and vipro would work fine with a less retarded drm scheme


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## I like music (Jun 5, 2019)

Hah, how timely this thread is. My dongle for Cubase made a clicking noise, I checked it, and it feels really flimsy (as if the plastic shell is about to come apart). I checked it, and it certainly looks this way.

What does one do in this situation? Is there any way to send it back _before_ it breaks and get a new one? Also, wish they came in a slightly sturdier casing.

Any help or experience here would be very much appreciated!


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## Lcas (Jun 5, 2019)

I like music said:


> Hah, how timely this thread is. My dongle for Cubase made a clicking noise, I checked it, and it feels really flimsy (as if the plastic shell is about to come apart). I checked it, and it certainly looks this way.
> 
> What does one do in this situation? Is there any way to send it back _before_ it breaks and get a new one? Also, wish they came in a slightly sturdier casing.
> 
> Any help or experience here would be very much appreciated!


Pretty sure they are better than vsl but I would get it figured quick. VSL stance was if your elicenser dies your keys die with it. So they would offer you the wonderful opportunity to buy a yearly protection plan on your elicenser. I almost did it so I could tell people I took out insurance on my dongle. Maybe they've come to their senses since then? I never had any issues but I hated giving someone with that policy my money, still regret it even though it was like $100


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## MartinH. (Jun 5, 2019)

Arise said:


> Just a note, Steinberg are working on a system to replace the dongle, it seems. It will apparently require an internet connection to periodically keep checking for the license and to confirm it.
> At least this is what I saw a Steinberg Dev/employee mention on the forums last year. Don't know how far that has come, or if it's been cancelled or whatnot.



So they want to make sure the "high chance of your software eventually stopping to work after they go out of business" turns into a "100% guarantuee your software is stopping to work _soon _after they go out of business"...


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## Daryl (Jun 5, 2019)

I like music said:


> Hah, how timely this thread is. My dongle for Cubase made a clicking noise, I checked it, and it feels really flimsy (as if the plastic shell is about to come apart). I checked it, and it certainly looks this way.
> 
> What does one do in this situation? Is there any way to send it back _before_ it breaks and get a new one? Also, wish they came in a slightly sturdier casing.
> 
> Any help or experience here would be very much appreciated!


Get a new one. Transfer the licence. Done.


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## I like music (Jun 5, 2019)

Daryl said:


> Get a new one. Transfer the licence. Done.



LOL, that simple. Thank you!


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## Isaak_Hamilt (May 26, 2020)

There is one lifehack that can help. In order not to carry the dongle constantly with you, you can connect it to an old computer. Install soft Donglify and get remote access to the key. Now there is no need to constantly connect it to a computer or laptop.
Unfortunately with iLock it does not work yet, but eLicenser is already being tested.


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## Ashermusic (May 26, 2020)

Lcas said:


> If I had to choose between usb and phoning home I definitely prefer usb because at least you can work offline. The whole idea is so ridiculous though.
> 
> Look at eastwest and vsl. So many more people would be all over their stuff if they got rid of ilok/elicenser. It's not like they are getting business from people who pirate kontakt stuff while buying from eastwest and vsl. They are throwing away money to aquire the services of ilok and friends, just so they can throw away a lot more money driving away customers.
> 
> I get cutting out the NI middleman, but why replace them with another one that narrows your market? Play and vipro would work fine with a less retarded drm scheme



I will point out that many, including EW, now require an iLok account but not a physical dongle.


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## robgb (May 26, 2020)

Isaak_Hamilt said:


> There is one lifehack that can help. In order not to carry the dongle constantly with you, you can connect it to an old computer. Install soft Donglify and get remote access to the key. Now there is no need to constantly connect it to a computer or laptop.
> Unfortunately with iLock it does not work yet, but eLicenser is already being tested.


Twenty bucks a month on top of the money you've already paid for the software and dongle? No thanks.


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## robgb (May 26, 2020)

Funny, Reaper doesn't have a dongle, doesn't have copy protection, the trial version (which is simply the full version with a nag screen that pops up when you start Reaper) continues to function fully well beyond the sixty day "limit," and the price for anyone who doesn't make a fortune with their music is $69 for a DAW that easily competes with the biggest DAWs on the market. And yet, somehow, they seem to be doing just fine with this business model.

I think Cockos proves that all this dongle nonsense is just an excuse to further gouge the consumer.


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## imagegod (May 26, 2020)

robgb said:


> Funny, Reaper doesn't have a dongle, doesn't have copy protection, the trial version (which is simply the full version with a nag screen that pops up when you start Reaper) continues to function fully well beyond the sixty day "limit," and the price for anyone who doesn't make a fortune with their music is $69 for a DAW that easily competes with the biggest DAWs on the market. And yet, somehow, they seem to be doing just fine with this business model.
> 
> I think Cockos proves that all this dongle nonsense is just an excuse to further gouge the consumer.


I think Reaper is very much 'proof of concept' that honesty is good security.


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## robgb (May 26, 2020)

imagegod said:


> I think Reaper is very much 'proof of concept' that honesty is good security.


Honesty and a reasonable price.


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## imagegod (May 26, 2020)

+1


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 26, 2020)

I know a developer who spent a ton of money recording a library. As soon as he released it, it was pirated. He lost the money he spent making it and had to shut his company down. Not the most ideal situation for him or the owners of his previous libraries.

If he had iLok for that library, he'd still have his business, but many on this thread would criticize him. To have a company that brings out sample libraries regularly, you have to hire an expensive place, hire musicians, engineers, etc. before hiring programmers, user interface experts, graphic designers. And do it again and again and again.

Each developer sells different kinds of products, incurs different kinds of advance costs, and has a different continuous overhead. I don't think it's fair to lump them all together.

Cockos is a company dedicated to customer over profit, which is admirable. All the same, the various creators only have to invest their time to create that product. They don't have to hire an orchestra and a hall before their work begins.


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## d.healey (May 26, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> He lost the money he spent making it and had to shut his company down.


It doesn't make any sense to shut the company once the library is complete. You have the library, and it costs essentially nothing to distribute it, so put it up for sale and get what you can. There is nothing to lose by continuing to sell it but as soon as you stop selling it you have almost no chance of recouping your investment. Every single piece of decent software ever made has been "pirated" yet software companies don't just shut up shop.

I've hired orchestras and halls and designers and programmers and marketers and most of my plugins have been uploaded without my permission, but I'm still in business. So what was the real reason he closed down? Did he take a loan to record the library and the "piracy" made it difficult for him to meet his repayments? Was he just disheartened by the experience?

Did he really go into this thinking it wouldn't happen to him? Did he not account for that when he was planning his business?


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## Rory (May 26, 2020)

I have two problems with the Steinberg/VSL dongle. The first is that it is obviously sold at a profit. In other words, if I purchase VSL's new Bosendorfer library, VSL will not only make money from me on the library, but also on the dongle that I have to buy to protect_ its_ interests. The second is that a lot of companies, including major ones, don't find these dongles necessary in the first place.


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## RogiervG (May 26, 2020)

secondly, majority of developers rely kontakt and it's copy protection like systems just fine. Even WITH piracy. Then you also have the watermarking, serials numbers etc etc.

If the price is right, there will be customers for it. But as new company you need to become known.. the irony is, that piracy provides free advertisement, talk about the product on all kinds of media.
many developers know this...


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 26, 2020)

Here's a hypothetical--

If using a dongle would enable a developer to offer resales, would you accept that trade off? (Putting aside the economics of resales for the moment.)

EDIT: I started a poll




__





Poll: Allowing Resales vs. Dongles


A lot of VIC folks wish more developers offered resales. A lot of VIC folks strongly dislike USB security dongles. Now imagine a hypothetical scenario in which a developer would allow resales, but only if the license is managed through a USB security dongle system. Which would you choose? In...




vi-control.net


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## robgb (May 26, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> If he had iLok for that library, he'd still have his business, but many on this thread would criticize him.


I hate to break it to you but iLok has been cracked in the past and will likely be cracked in the future. It seems the only copy protection that hasn't been cracked is the copy protection that turns out to be a giant unreliable pain in the ass for your customers, which is no way to run a business either.

I've got news for any budding developer out there. Piracy is inevitable. So you had better factor those losses into your business plan or don't go into business at all.


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 26, 2020)

d.healey said:


> It doesn't make any sense to shut the company once the library is complete. You have the library, and it costs essentially nothing to distribute it, so put it up for sale and get what you can. There is nothing to lose by continuing to sell it but as soon as you stop selling it you have almost no chance of recouping your investment. Every single piece of decent software ever made has been "pirated" yet software companies don't just shut up shop.
> 
> I've hired orchestras and halls and designers and programmers and marketers and most of my plugins have been uploaded without my permission, but I'm still in business. So what was the real reason he closed down? Did he take a loan to record the library and the "piracy" made it difficult for him to meet his repayments? Was he just disheartened by the experience?
> 
> Did he really go into this thinking it wouldn't happen to him? Did he not account for that when he was planning his business?


I don't know the details. He is not a friend, only an acquaintance, and never shared them with me, and I am not going to reveal his name. But it's a real company and it did happen.

I'm sure there are infinite ways to run a company, be pirated, and not shut down.

I am very grateful for all the ways that developers have enriched my life. I have respect and sympathy for the choices they make to run their businesses as they see fit, even if I disagree with them. 

So sue me.


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## robgb (May 26, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> If using a dongle would enable a developer to offer resales, would you accept that trade off? (Putting aside the economics of resales for the moment.)


Developers don't offer resales because the market is limited and resales would take money away from them. That's the bottom line. There is nothing stopping developers from offering REFUNDS and resales right now. Certainly not piracy. They just choose not to do it and we're up shit creek.


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## d.healey (May 26, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> If using a dongle would enable a developer to offer resales, would you accept that trade off?


Developers don't need dongles to offer resales, so no.


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## ag75 (May 26, 2020)

My BIGGEST problem with this is simple. If a library has to use a dongle, they should just send you a free one when you purchase the library. Simple.


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## robgb (May 26, 2020)

ag75 said:


> My BIGGEST problem with this is simple. If a library has to use a dongle, they should just send you a free one when you purchase the library. Simple.


Or choose not to make you add another piece of hardware to our already precious USB hubs.


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## robgb (May 26, 2020)

This was several years back, but I used to use a DAW that required a dongle. That dongle constantly gave me problems, often forcing me to reboot in order to get the DAW to read it and authorize my use of the software. If the dongle was bumped and came loose, I'd have to spend valuable time fucking around with it to get it to work again.

Why would ANY USER want to deal with that kind of nonsense when a dongle gives them absolutely no benefit? I refuse to buy any software that requires a dongle.


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## dzilizzi (May 26, 2020)

imagegod said:


> I think Reaper is very much 'proof of concept' that honesty is good security.


Not necessarily. Cakewalk Sonar had practically no copy protection. You put in a couple of numbers. They basically went out of business. And now it is free. 

Hmm. Maybe that wasn't a good example?


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## robgb (May 26, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> Not necessarily. Cakewalk Sonar had practically no copy protection. You put in a couple of numbers. They basically went out of business. And now it is free.


Sonar was shuttered because it wasn't popular enough to sustain their business. Cakewalk had a good run. I started with them. But they were surpassed by many other companies and were never able to catch up. Copy protection had nothing to do with it.

Also, weren't they acquired by Gibson and Gibson was the one that decided the DAW needed to go? I don't know the particulars, so I could be wrong.


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## SupremeFist (May 26, 2020)

I'm old enough that I had a dongle for when Logic needed one, and I didn't mind at all. The particular policies from some companies these days that go with their dongles, however…


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## dzilizzi (May 26, 2020)

robgb said:


> Sonar was shuttered because it wasn't popular enough to sustain their business. Cakewalk had a good run. I started with them. But they were surpassed by many other companies and were never able to catch up. Copy protection had nothing to do with it.
> 
> Also, weren't they acquired by Gibson and Gibson was the one that decided the DAW needed to go? I don't know the particulars, so I could be wrong.


Yes. It was actually a pretty good DAW. I would switch between it and ProTools. It just was Windows only, so it never picked up the, at the time, larger Mac market. I'm not so sure Apple still has the larger end of the music production market, but you really need to run on both systems now if you want to do well and aren't subsidized by hardware purchases.


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 26, 2020)

I think the main reason Sonar went out of business is that it was purchased by Gibson. 
Gibson's poor management brought down a lot of companies.


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 26, 2020)

robgb said:


> Developers don't offer resales because the market is limited and resales would take money away from them. That's the bottom line. There is nothing stopping developers from offering REFUNDS and resales right now. Certainly not piracy. They just choose not to do it and we're up shit creek.





d.healey said:


> Developers don't need dongles to offer resales, so no.



My question is about which way you'd go if you had to decide yes or no to this hypothetical trade off.

I guess both of you would say "no" then?


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## Piotrek K. (May 26, 2020)

> I think Cockos proves that all this dongle nonsense is just an excuse to further gouge the consumer.



FL Studio comes to my mind also. Their copy protection is laughable (reg key), yet they are still live and kicking.


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## Geocranium (May 26, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> If he had iLok for that library, he'd still have his business



How do you or anyone else know that though? He could have required iLok and then got hardly any sales and had to shut down. Someone downloading software illegally does not mean that they would have bought it if it weren't piratable.


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## Reid Rosefelt (May 26, 2020)

Geocranium said:


> How do you or anyone else know that though? He could have required iLok and then got hardly any sales and had to shut down. Someone downloading software illegally does not mean that they would have bought it if it weren't piratable.


True.


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## berto (May 26, 2020)

a year ago my iLOK stopped working out of the blue, i never unplugged it, never ever. Just stopped working.
I contacted them, they told me "pay hundreds to have your licenses transferred to a new iLOK, you can buy one, then send it to us (UK to USA) then we transfer the licenses and send it back to you (USA to UK)." Fed ex + License recovery + Fed ex again+ Dongle.... and the best part is that it took 20 days.
Not only that... the same day i paid, they gave me the licenses back "virtually", so i could keep working, without ILOK dongle. And i asked myself, "i already pay more for the ILOK protected software and you get money from that, why can you no just give me the license "virtually" as you just did for a "limited replacement time"? instead of making me pay the replacement, the shipment and the new dongle. It showed to me the dongle really does nothing.... so that's why i hate it, but a lot of softwares i use requires it....


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## Dewdman42 (May 26, 2020)

I think dongles are a hassle but someone else may like the fact they they can easily take their licenses with them to a studio or other location without having to bring their whole computer so that would be the one user-advantage of dongles. Otherwise I see them as a nuisance. I have three or four of them plugged into my computer as it is using up my usb sockets, then next I have to get a hub, etc. Nuisance. Doesn’t help me at all. Never mind that I had to pay for the dongles in most cases, only one software I have, the developer sent me a free ilok dongle. The rest of them just sneak thst cost on to us. Then there is the risk of malfunction or loss and incredible hassles to get the licenses restored again, with some extreme developers using the excuse to charge insurance for it. What a racket. No, dongles are a nuisance for us mostly but if a developer feels they need to impose that nuisance on me it better be the best thing since sliced bread or I won’t buy it. It took me a long time to buy cubase because of that and Vsl stuff too. I’m always hesitant when I see that something requires a dongle. But if it’s good enough then I will.

I don’t blame developers for wanting to protect their work but sometimes they get a little obsessive about it and IMHO they probably lose as many sales as they gain from going too far with it. Many products have moved away from dongles and I think they just came to realize that they still have market share and sales without dongles.

a reasonable level of copy protection is still warranted to prevent casual piracy. All forms of copy protection can be broken and there are people that do it for sport. But some form is better then none. I think it’s naive to think that using no copy protection and trusting users will work out. There will still be sales but friends will also share the software, even if meant initially as a form of demoing, it will turn into lost revenue for the developer. But even a simple amount of copy protection will prevent that, the very same demoing friends will be annoyed and motivated enough to buy it if they need it or want it. That copy protected software will still show up on the torrent sites and motivated pirates will find it and use it. Would those same pirates have bought it otherwise? Some would. Many wouldn’t. It’s still a bit of lost revenue though. If the product is good it would not result in shutting down the company. If that happened then the product wasn’t good enough to sell, simple as that.

if a developer wants to make sure that not one single motivated Pirate will be able to use their software under any situation then the strictest copy protection possible is required such as Ilok or elicenser and while its technically possible to crack even that, it is still very difficult to do and really represents a very solid form of copy protection but at the expense of needing extra hardware, and burdening your customers with hassles associated with it; and in the case of one notorious developer, even imposing some risk of loss on to the customer due to extreme copy protection measures. Whether those extreme cases are saving their company from bankruptcy that way is debatable IMHO.


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## kitekrazy (May 26, 2020)

Dongles also don't save a company - see Yellow Tools.

_But the problem with a system like that is that it gives the most important control of your product to another company...and you have to go along with their way of doing things, even if that's NOT the way you want to do business. Not only that, but if something happens to that company or that system, then it affects everybody...hundreds of products and hundreds of thousands of users! The concept of paying for a system like that, when we can do a better job of it in-house is extremely distasteful to me.

It's weird....we lose some sales to Pro Tools users because we don't use iLok and they prefer to have a dongle. But if we did, there are many thousands more of our users that would hate going to a dongle system. (and offering both dongle and dongless methods just complicates things, providing less reliability, more tech support and less security as well).

I just would never trust another company with such a valuable and key part of my business and how I interact with my customers._

That is from the founder of Spectrasonics. The attitude is more towards servicing the enduser than protecting their product. Imagine Line has the same attitude and their software averages about 200K downloads a week.

Licensing is always the top decision when I buy. I support developers who have the "I trust you" attitude.

I've also learned to live with the dongle. This is another let's beat the dead horse thread.


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## dzilizzi (May 26, 2020)

TigerTheFrog said:


> I think the main reason Sonar went out of business is that it was purchased by Gibson.
> Gibson's poor management brought down a lot of companies.


LOL Including Gibson.


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## purple (May 26, 2020)

The main annoying point to me is that the dongle costs like $50 and that puts me off from buying libraries or software that would use it.


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## purple (May 26, 2020)

And it also makes reselling libraries harder, not that many developers allow resale anyways unfortunately.


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## d.healey (May 26, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> a reasonable level of copy protection is still warranted to prevent casual piracy.


The thing is, casual piracy (i.e giving a copy to your friend) doesn't do much "damage" to a developer's income. It's the non-casual sharers who publish it to the masses that cause problems, and copy restriction doesn't have much of an effect on them.


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## Dewdman42 (May 26, 2020)

disagree completely. I think casual pirating happens and people may put off buying something that they normally would buy...either because they procrastinate or because they think they can get away with it too, it happens. I know numerous shareware products that I use which started out on the honor system where the developer said, hey here it is, if you like it please send me money... Then later they put out a statement saying something like, "nobody ever sent me any money, so sorry, a serial is required now". People do cheat and try to get away with whatever they can get away with, that is human nature. 

So some certain level of copy protection is definitely warranted to get around that. It serves as a signal to many buyers also, many people might be on the fence about it, but they say, hey..its just a nag screen (for example Reaper), eh...i don't wanna pay yet, its "optional". people rationalize. If there is a serial involved, then the user knows...its not free...they need to pay...do the right thing...and many people will choose to do the right thing when its absolutely clear like that. They will not feel right about using a stolen serial number or a cracked copy...because then they know they are stealing.


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## dzilizzi (May 26, 2020)

I like my iLok. It makes reloading a computer or moving from computer to computer easy. I pay every 2 years for insurance and have a spare key if I need it. (Came free with some software) What I don't like is having 4 keys (iLok, elicenser, codemeter and a plain usb for Waves and other plugins that let you license to a usb stick.) I ended up buying a 4 port usb hub to hold them all, so I only need one port for all of them. And I don't like that I should be paying $35 a year for my VSL only licenses. I don't yet have enough to make paying worthwhile. 

But this comes up every time. I tell you what though, I have this one program that I've pretty much run out of authorizations on. I've had it a while. The gave me extra, but said if a need more, they will have to charge a small fee. It's reasonable as long as they are still in business. What happens if they quit? I'm basically out of luck.


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## Dewdman42 (May 26, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> But this comes up every time. I tell you what though, I have this one program that I've pretty much run out of authorizations on. I've had it a while. The gave me extra, but said if a need more, they will have to charge a small fee. It's reasonable as long as they are still in business. What happens if they quit? I'm basically out of luck.



you will be out of luck on that with a dongle too if they go out of business...dongle doesn't solve that problem. That is an equally devious problem though, that the software you purchased and requires ongoing authorization checks in some form or another, may stop working... As opposed to say a simple copy protection that you just entire your serial number and the software is hard coded to accept your serial number and let you use it until the end of time.


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 26, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> you will be out of luck on that with a dongle too if they go out of business...dongle doesn't solve that problem.


If the dongle company goes out of business, but the developer of the licensed product is still around, you'd imagine that they'd just switch to a different license-managing company, right? I think the main issue is if the developer of the licensed product goes away.


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## Dewdman42 (May 26, 2020)

If dongle company goes out of business and developer is still in business then one would assume the developer would change their copy protection to something else, but its up to them really. But if the developer goes out of business...then with your dongle you will have same problem as other non-dongle auth based software...in that if you ever have to reinstall it again...you might not be able to. 

The main point is that the "check" that happens to verify that you have purchased the software involves some kind of online check...checking against a server side database of some kind. That could be with or without a dongle...same problem.

As opposed to many simply copy protection schemes where you enter the serial number...and the software doesn't have to check online, its hard coded into the software itself to verify that the serial number is authentic...and if so..then you're good to go. Some people can use more or less sophisticated serial number checks, it could use a hard coded algorithm in the software to check your number against your name, or some of them even have a way to verify with an image, etc..but mainly the point is...its coded into the software itself...nothing has to dial home to check it and authorize it.

Those kinds of copy protection are not hard to crack. That's why many people use phone-home style checks..including with Dongles...to make it harder... But in the end, if your favorite software company goes out of business...the day may come when you won't be able to authorize it again...with or without a dongle...when phone-home strategies are used...even if its just one time when you install it.


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## MA-Simon (May 26, 2020)

That is one ting I like about Adobes Creative Cloud, Same thing for my 3D software. I can have everything with me on the go. Just log in, and it is ready to use. My dongles are all ~8-10 years old. I probably should buy new ones...


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## MauroPantin (May 26, 2020)

In my particular situation they are a pain in the ass. It is the reason I don't use any VSL samples, dongles are hard to get here because of ridiculous import laws. You can get one but it takes about 3 months and it's just too much of a hoop to jump through when there are other companies with more sensible e-licenser or iLok cloud services that get the job done. Long story short, if a company requires a dongle I just end up buying what I need from someone else.

Also I have a ton of peripherals and free USB ports are a limited resource.


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## MA-Simon (May 26, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> USB ports are a limited resource.


I have all of my dongles connected to a USB hub, so they take only one slot.


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## dzilizzi (May 26, 2020)

Makes me love 8Dio much more. 

Copy protection is a watermark only.


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## LamaRose (May 26, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> In my particular situation they are a pain in the ass.



Yes, dongleberries are a pain is the arse, lol. VSL should consider how much money they're losing in lost sales.


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## Geocranium (May 26, 2020)

Dewdman42 said:


> I think dongles are a hassle but someone else may like the fact they they can easily take their licenses with them to a studio or other location without having to bring their whole computer so that would be the one user-advantage of dongles



The thing is in this digital age of internet ubiquity, this "positive" doesn't mean anything. If your licenses are all digital and tied to an account instead of on a dongle, then you could just go to any computer and log into your account, and it would have all the conveniences of moving a dongle around without the hassle of having to remember to carry + not lose a small plastic USB stick. 

The entire concept of a "physical license" is baffling to me from a design perspective. It's like adding the ability to physically misplace software. "Well gee, I was gonna do some graphic design work today, but I can't seem to find where I put Photoshop! It's not under the couch..." One of the biggest advantages of software and online accounts is that _you can't just lose it. _I hate dongles because they feel so archaic compared to how most modern software is handled.


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## dzilizzi (May 26, 2020)

Geocranium said:


> The thing is in this digital age of internet ubiquity, this "positive" doesn't mean anything. If your licenses are all digital and tied to an account instead of on a dongle, then you could just go to any computer and log into your account, and it would have all the conveniences of moving a dongle around without the hassle of having to remember to carry + not lose a small plastic USB stick.
> 
> The entire concept of a "physical license" is baffling to me from a design perspective. It's like adding the ability to physically misplace software. "Well gee, I was gonna do some graphic design work today, but I can't seem to find where I put Photoshop! It's not under the couch..." One of the biggest advantages of software and online accounts is that _you can't just lose it. _I hate dongles because they feel so archaic compared to how most modern software is handled.


However, what do you do when you don't have access to internet? When I take classes, they have wired interenet on the class computers. But the building is steel and concrete and I barely get a phone signal. They have an unsecured wireless network with no login that can be used. I don't like using it though. Same with a lot of the hotels I stay at when I travel for work.


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## Geocranium (May 26, 2020)

dzilizzi said:


> However, what do you do when you don't have access to internet? When I take classes, they have wired interenet on the class computers. But the building is steel and concrete and I barely get a phone signal. They have an unsecured wireless network with no login that can be used. I don't like using it though. Same with a lot of the hotels I stay at when I travel for work.



I think ideally you'd just have to connect your computer to the internet once, log in to your account and register your software, then you'd be good to go. No more internet required from there.


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## jcrosby (May 26, 2020)

Although I'm not nuts about ilok I don't have gripes about it overall. (Although ZDT is a racket. That does irritate me...) My bigger gripe is developers not settling on the same dongle system. iLok, Vienna Key, and Codemeter all on the same machine? Ugh. Three times the likelihood of one failing.


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## purple (May 26, 2020)

If you don't have internet access, why does it matter whether you have a dongle or an online license? You still have to download the samples anyways. That really isn't an advantage.


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## Land of Missing Parts (May 26, 2020)

purple said:


> If you don't have internet access, why does it matter whether you have a dongle or an online license? You still have to download the samples anyways. That really isn't an advantage.


Some folks work on machines that aren't online for security reasons. So they don't get hacked and have the media leak. (Think Sony.)

These folks might a have a separate computer that goes online, to download the samples onto a drive. But they wouldn't have their DAW connected to the internet.


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## wilifordmusic (May 26, 2020)

Not spending 50 bucks so someone else can sleep at night.


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## purple (May 26, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Some folks work on machines that aren't online for security reasons. So they don't get hacked and have the media leak. (Think Sony.)
> 
> These folks might a have a separate computer that goes online, to download the samples onto a drive. But they wouldn't have their DAW connected to the internet.


I don't think anybody who is worried about media leaks is really involved in the debate of dongles anyways.


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## willie45 (May 31, 2020)

Hi Folks. I'm a bit confused.

Can you tell me definitively what happens if I lose my VSL dongle? Do I need to pay 50% or 100% of my licence or do I just buy a new key and pay €20 for reactivation?

I just bought a starter edition of Synchron Vol 1 from them and am waiting for the key to arrive. I didn't take insurance because I assumed if the worst happened, they would just send me another activation code and I'd need to buy another key. I thought the insurance was for pros to save time but apparently not. Hmmm..


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## willie45 (May 31, 2020)

Ah! Found it





__





MyProtectionPlans (eLicenser) - Vienna Symphonic Library


VSL Key Protection Plans




www.vsl.co.at





Honestly, its is a disappointing introduction for me. The "meet you halfway" really rankles. I'd expect to pay an admin fee if I lost the thing but 50% of the licence again? I really don't like this way of doing business - especially as they can easily de-activate the lost key. I should have looked more closely earlier I guess.

Hopefully the software will be good but they really could do with a better solution IM


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## Michael Antrum (May 31, 2020)

Geocranium said:


> The thing is in this digital age of internet ubiquity, this "positive" doesn't mean anything. If your licenses are all digital and tied to an account instead of on a dongle, then you could just go to any computer and log into your account, and it would have all the conveniences of moving a dongle around without the hassle of having to remember to carry + not lose a small plastic USB stick.



Actually, in most cases that's not true. With most kontakt library developers you are allowed so many activations, after which further activations are blocked. At which point you need to contact to developer to have another added.

I went through a phase of having two defective computers delivered one after another, and I had to contact several developers to ask if I can have another activation please. There wasn't a problem when I explained what had happened, but I had to wait for a reply from support in their normal working hours and I was without some libraries for several days.

The weird thing was it didn't seem to have a logical pattern to it. I had some Project Sam Libraries fail to authorise, whilst others did - go figure.

I think this is because programs like Kontakt have no true 'de-activation' method - unlike the Adobe Suite - so developers understandably put a limit in. I initially contacted NI about this, as the authorisation was through Native Access, but they redirected me to the developer - so it is obviously the developer who has control over this.

And if this happens to you, you can bet that is going to bite you when you least need it.....


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## Michael Antrum (May 31, 2020)

willie45 said:


> Ah! Found it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just insure my dongle with VSL for £30 a year. Then everything is replaced FOC if whatever happens. 

Should it be free ? -- probably, but I live with it. 

The thing is, with VSL you can return a library with 14 days for refund or credit if you don't like it (and you bought it directly from them), and you can also resell it (there is a transfer fee).

When I look at the libraries I have purchased that proved to be very disappointing that I couldn't return, or those that I don't use anymore and would like to sell, it makes that £ 30 a year look like a minor cost indeed. (Though I certainly wouldn't complain if they did away with the fee).

Imagine buying an expensive £ 600-700 library and you don't like it or it's not what it was sold to you as - no refund - no resale.

But I really like my VSL libraries, and that's a choice for you to make.


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## willie45 (May 31, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> I just insure my dongle with VSL for £30 a year. Then everything is replaced FOC if whatever happens.
> 
> Should it be free ? -- probably, but I live with it.
> 
> ...



All fair points and, even though this is currently the only library of theirs that I have I will probably pay the cash as guaranteed to lose the thing if I don't. The policy should be more generous but its just a fact to accept I guess.

That's interesting about the refund. I saw on their site it was possible to refund if the software wasn't activated. So I can actually send it back? That is definitely a positive. I can't see that on their site though. Do you have a link to help?

Thank you


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## ProfoundSilence (May 31, 2020)

I have less of an issue with dongles and more of an issue with software companies holding your license ransom. Both major companies have online activation of what was on your key, if your key breaks you should NEVER have to buy libraries again - should just have to buy a new key and have them switch the serials to the replacement


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## Ivan M. (May 31, 2020)

Does this protection really prevent piracy? It just ends up being an annoyance (or a problem) to a fair paying customer. If you physically deliver (copy) your code and samples to a remote machine, you cannot prevent piracy. By sending it, you made it, in a sense, ,,open source", just in a binary form, which is hard for humans to read and parse, but there are people (and tools) who are used to dealing with it.


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## Michael Antrum (May 31, 2020)

willie45 said:


> All fair points and, even though this is currently the only library of theirs that I have I will probably pay the cash as guaranteed to lose the thing if I don't. The policy should be more generous but its just a fact to accept I guess.
> 
> That's interesting about the refund. I saw on their site it was possible to refund if the software wasn't activated. So I can actually send it back? That is definitely a positive. I can't see that on their site though. Do you have a link to help?
> 
> Thank you




From The VSL Forum:





__





Return Policy - Vienna Instruments Libraries - FORUMS - Vienna Symphonic Library


No description




www.vsl.co.at


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## willie45 (May 31, 2020)

Good stuff. Thank you


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## willie45 (May 31, 2020)

On a positive note, in my limited experience, I have found VSL to be a really friendly company to deal with and although the key is a pain, I'm generally very favourably impressed with their customer relations so I guess in the scheme of things its not really that big a deal. I'm impatient to get going with the software


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## Dewdman42 (May 31, 2020)

willie45 said:


> Ah! Found it
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Depending on how much product you bought, I would recommend you buy their insurance.


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## willie45 (May 31, 2020)

My key was delivered today, activated, registered and and insured. Just need to learn how to use the software now. Oh yeah, and find some musical ability


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## Mark Schmieder (May 31, 2020)

The biggest problem is available ports, and of course potential breakage (I always use the backs of monitors when I can). When my 2010 MacPro died in summer 2017, I had to buy an iMac, throwing me yet again back into the world of "musical chairs" with what can be attached to the computer at any given time and what doesn't have a slot.

I spent $300 on an OWC Thunderbolt 3 Dock that never worked, got replaced, but then failed within the year yet isn't covered at this point nor available towards an upgrade to their new version. And all just so I could keep my hard drives using the direct ports as the dock is flaky as all get-out. But for that reason, I have to put the dongles in those precious back-of-monitor slots on the iMac, and even at that, the eLicenser and iLok both have glitches where they aren't seen as connected.

I am strongly considering moving every iLok license that supports it, to the computer and off the iLok dongle, and then selling any remaining licenses that still require the actual physical dongle. Can't do that with eLicenser though as that's mostly VSL stuff. But I may buy Rev 4 as it is smaller and apparently also more performant and reliable.


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## gsilbers (May 31, 2020)

robgb said:


> 1. They take up valuable USB space.
> 2. They can get lost.
> 3. They can go bad.
> 4. Recovery policies differ from developer to developer.
> ...





I nominate this post for best summed up post about why usb dongle suck


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## Mark Schmieder (May 31, 2020)

VSL is literally the only company whose products are so good that I am willing to put up with eLicenser. I got rid of everything else on that device, except Steinway desktop apps, which I don't know if I'll keep as they still haven't worked their way into my regular workflow and I have primary apps for all three roles (DP, Finale, and DSP Quattro).


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## Marsen (May 31, 2020)

Full hate for dongles here,- period


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## Geocranium (May 31, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Actually, in most cases that's not true. With most kontakt library developers you are allowed so many activations, after which further activations are blocked. At which point you need to contact to developer to have another added.
> 
> I went through a phase of having two defective computers delivered one after another, and I had to contact several developers to ask if I can have another activation please. There wasn't a problem when I explained what had happened, but I had to wait for a reply from support in their normal working hours and I was without some libraries for several days.
> 
> ...



But this problem is not because of digital licenses, it's because of how developers are implementing them. The only reason a dongle is more convenient here is because of an arbitrary limitation put on activations by the developers. I'm not defending NI's way of handling licenses, because I think they got it wrong too.

A good example of digital good handling is Steam. You pay for the software and then it's tied to your account. You can then install the Steam client on however many computers you want and install any software that you have owned on your account. There are no "activations" with codes and whatnot, it's all just tied to your account. All you have to do is log in.


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## Michael Antrum (May 31, 2020)

The point I was making was that you shouldn't go around thinking you can just activate software over the net whenever you like. When you least expect or need it, you could well come up come up against this, and it could be very inconvenient to say the least.


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## Geocranium (May 31, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> The point I was making was that you shouldn't go around thinking you can just activate software over the net whenever you like. When you least expect or need it, you could well come up come up against this, and it could be very inconvenient to say the least.



Sure, but it's irrelevant to the point I'm making and discussion I'm having. I know I can't just activate my NI software whenever. I've had to contact support for additional licenses in the past. I'm not talking about the current reality of things, I'm talking about how poor our current license implementation is, and how other companies/developers are already lightyears ahead of the shitty dongle model.


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## Mark Schmieder (May 31, 2020)

A very solid example of this, that I was quite familiar with for the 21-½ years I worked in Pro Audio (up until late March of this year), is that there is often no internet, or poor reception, at venues. So if you are depending on the plug-ins for an instrument's sounds on-stage, or as part of P/A mixing, forget it. This is one more reason why I also hate the trend away from desktop apps and towards web-apps. Lemmings over the cliff. This idiocy will self-correct at some point; also true for dongles.


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## Geocranium (Jun 1, 2020)

Mark Schmieder said:


> A very solid example of this, that I was quite familiar with for the 21-½ years I worked in Pro Audio (up until late March of this year), is that there is often no internet, or poor reception, at venues. So if you are depending on the plug-ins for an instrument's sounds on-stage, or as part of P/A mixing, forget it. This is one more reason why I also hate the trend away from desktop apps and towards web-apps. Lemmings over the cliff. This idiocy will self-correct at some point; also true for dongles.



Do you really think it's more likely that in the future that software will self-correct to become less dependent on the internet, or that internet connectivity will expand to include every last space, venues included? 

In the future, _everything_ is going to be connected to the internet. There will not be places you can go to escape it, unless you're in a tin-foil bunker. Right now, the majority of people are within reach of the internet for the majority of their day to day life than not, and it's only going to get more ubiquitous.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 1, 2020)

I've lived in a dead zone since 2006. I do not see much likelihood my area will get prioritized over the next ten years (for proper cell coverage, and even wireless quality; regular internet is OK here but a generation or two behind).

Money rules. When you're in an area that is adjacent an uninhabited region, it isn't economical to place cell towers to improve that coverage, so we get bypassed. Perhaps different technologies will take over, but attacks on the internet are also likely to rise, and much faster than responses to such attacks.

I had worked in the industry for only six months when I made an observation that still holds true today just as it did in 1981: there is roughly a five year cycle of distributed vs. consolidated as the main paradigm. This is how technological innovation works; the bottleneck is addressed because it defines the overall performance of the greater system. Then the infrastructure reacts accordingly, until the bottleneck moves.

I suspect this situation is different outside the USA, but here, we are already reaching the peak performance of internet, especially with the burden that ever-large-and-more-complex layers of security continue to add to the equation. I am already seeing a trend again away from distributed (which is now unfortunately called "cloud", which I refuse to use as a term because it evokes instability and lack of integrity of data). The five year cycle continues unabated. Rinse and repeat.


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