# If you are Composing directly in your DAW, Not using Notation Program, how do you keep track of your composition ?



## muziksculp (Aug 15, 2021)

Hi,

If you are composing strictly using your DAW, and do not use a Notation program as a first phase of your composition process, basically if you compose by going directly to your DAW, how do you keep track, or organize your ideas ? 

i.e. chord progressions, other details relating to your composition in your DAW ? (i.e. Do you use the Arranger Track, or markers to specify sections, chord track for chord progression info, ...etc. Your composition's structure, A-B-A, ...etc. Do you sketch some of it on paper before starting to compose ? ..etc. 

Especially when building complex orchestrations, how do keep track of this when they are split into multiple tracks in your DAW ? 

Any tips, and general feedback about this topic would be interesting, and very helpful. 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## goalie composer (Aug 15, 2021)

I'd start by using a piano or two to sketch the general composition, write notes above in the marker tracks concerning sound design or general ideas for each section, then use ensemble patches to get the broad strokes down, then separate and orchestrate from there.


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## mikrokosmiko (Aug 15, 2021)

Does pencil and paper count as notation program?


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## muziksculp (Aug 15, 2021)

mikrokosmiko said:


> Does pencil and paper count as notation program?


Good question  

If one uses pencil, and paper, they will still have to input the note info from paper to DAW, which makes it even more time consuming, since you don't just export the midi data from the Notation program, but have to manually start inputting data into your DAW from scratch. So, I would say, No, it's not the same as using a notation program, but has some similarity, but it surely isn't a program.


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## samplin (Aug 15, 2021)

This is a project by project choice for me... if its an orchestral piece i will start in notation then import the midi into my daw... if I’m doing something more straight forward I;ll start in the daw and then export to notation to clean up . Sometimes it maybe just strings so ill just export strings to clean up.
haven’t found a perfect way.


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## muziksculp (Aug 15, 2021)

I can read notation, but I'm not good at speed reading, so I don't use/have a notation program as part of my composing tools or workflow. 

Would you recommend a notation program ? if Yes, which one ? 

I also feel that notation programs tend to make the resulting music very robotic/stiff, and lacking the emotional-human touch of the performance. How do you deal with that aspect ?


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## ScarletJerry (Aug 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Good question
> 
> If one uses pencil, and paper, they will still have to input the note info from paper to DAW, which makes it even more time consuming, since you don't just export the midi data from the Notation program, but have to manually start inputting data into your DAW from scratch. So, I would say, No, it's not the same as using a notation program, but has some similarity, but it surely isn't a program.


That’s the way I work, and it’s actually not a lot of extra time because I “play” the music into my DAW with my keyboard. That’s actually the fastest part of the process, compared to composing/sketching and editing/arranging.

Scarlet Jerry


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## muziksculp (Aug 15, 2021)

ScarletJerry said:


> That’s the way I work, and it’s actually not a lot of extra time because I “play” the music into my DAW with my keyboard. That’s actually the fastest part of the process, compared to composing/sketching and editing/arranging.
> 
> Scarlet Jerry


That's great ! 

But, I can't sight read well enough to play it in real time, so it doesn't work for me. I'm not a classically trained piano player.


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## ScarletJerry (Aug 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> That's great !
> 
> But, I can't sight read well enough to play it in real time, so it doesn't work for me. I'm not a classically trained piano player.


Got it. I‘m not classsically trained, but I was a part time church organist for many years, so my keyboard skills are pretty good. I keep forgetting that there is a range of musical instrument experience on this board. In your case, I can understand how it would be tedious to do manual note entry.


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## Lea1229 (Aug 15, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I can read notation, but I'm not good at speed reading, so I don't use/have a notation program as part of my composing tools or workflow.
> 
> Would you recommend a notation program ? if Yes, which one ?
> 
> I also feel that notation programs tend to make the resulting music very robotic/stiff, and lacking the emotional-human touch of the performance. How do you deal with that aspect ?



I think if a notation program isn't already part of your process that adding it in would only create an extra step and unnecessary headache for you. I think the arranger track, markers and notes is a way to go.


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## muziksculp (Aug 15, 2021)

Lea1229 said:


> I think if a notation program isn't already part of your process that adding it in would only create an extra step and unnecessary headache for you. I think the arranger track, markers and notes is a way to go.


I agree.

Thanks for the helpful feedback, and advice. 

I'm not sure what percentage of this forum's members use a notation program, my guess is the majority of DAW users on this forum do not use a notation program. I haven't seen anyone post a Poll about this. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Markrs (Aug 15, 2021)

I am trying to write in both the DAW and notation and I find I write differently in both. In a DAW I am more experimental with instrumentation and timbre, but often ends up with similar patterns/style each time. In notation I experiment more with the musicality of the piece, such as the creating phrases and harmonic progression, including using secondary dominants and borrowed chords as well as modulating to another key.

So I end up with the DAW being more about the production of the sound, however, notation being about the composition of the music and the harmonic and melodic journey it goes on.


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## Hywel (Aug 15, 2021)

Over the years I have developed my own very basic "shorthand" note taking and I just jot ideas for notes and harmony/bass on the basic sheet attached while I noodle away on the piano. My pieces are mainly in basic song structure, so this works quite well for me. I can imagine that it wouldn't work for more complex pieces... like a symphony.
Once I have the basic structure for the piece or even just one section I then use it as my "manuscript" for playing into my DAW. I don't make notes about what to do in the arrangement - I trust the visual representation in the Arrange Window of Cubase to jog my memory, even with my more complex orchestral arrangements.
Amazingly, playing at the piano, I can pick up quite easily the pieces I have written down in this format from years ago, just by reading my "manuscript", so it does work for me quite well.


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## muziksculp (Aug 15, 2021)

Markrs said:


> I am trying to write in both the DAW and notation and I find I write differently in both. In a DAW I am more experimental with instrumentation and timbre, but often ends up with similar patterns/style each time. In notation I experiment more with the musicality of the piece, such as the creating phrases and harmonic progression, including using secondary dominants and borrowed chords as well as modulating to another key.
> 
> So I end up with the DAW being more about the production of the sound, however, notation being about the composition of the music and the harmonic and melodic journey it goes on.


@Markrs,

Thanks for the helpful feedback.

So, once you have your composition in your notation program, you export it as midi, and import it into your DAW to work on the production of the sounds, but what about the performance aspect of the phrases, do you find them robotic/rigid due to the absolute quantized note values the notation program produces, when you import the midi data into your DAW ?


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## PaulieDC (Aug 15, 2021)

Spending many years playing in the bands and doing session work and picking songs off records, everything I now write is in my noggin. When it gets into Cubase I can move it around a little if I need to. My whole life I really just played what I heard (Ok, a very intensive music theory course in high school really helped) and now I use that same approach to compose on piano or ensemble library. To remember what I wrote, I just record the track in Cubase if I’m home. When I noodle around on the NICE Yamaha C5 in our church I seem to come up with more interesting stuff, probably since there’s no pressure to produce something. So to remember what I played, I set this little Roland digital recorder on the piano so I have it to expound on when I get home. I also use that for my acoustic guitar or if I get an idea and I need to hum it into something. I could probably use my iPhone but this little recorder is dedicated so it won’t get lost in the busyness of life As it would if I did a voice memo. Anyway, once in Cubase I build on it and I recognize the sections or just listen. Stupid me, I should use a marker or arranger track! This is good, you have me thinking about how to make it more organized.

I’ll be honest, while I have Dorico I don’t use it at this time because I’m the only one involved with my freshman year composing. If I ever have to give it to a live player, I’ll print the score. I can read the notes on staff in the event I need a complex chord from music that I can’t pick out but I cannot read and play. The vertical Y axis of written staff isn’t too hard for me but the X axis where you read notes and timing and measures as you play is beyond my understanding and I have great respect for those that can do it. My problem is I hear in the melody line and I just start playing that so I lose total track of what on earth is printed.🤓

Well I guess that was an entirely over-worded answer to say that I record it or remember it, lol.


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## muziksculp (Aug 15, 2021)

Hywel said:


> Over the years I have developed my own very basic "shorthand" note taking and I just jot ideas for notes and harmony/bass on the basic sheet attached while I noodle away on the piano. My pieces are mainly in basic song structure, so this works quite well for me. I can imagine that it wouldn't work for more complex pieces... like a symphony.
> Once I have the basic structure for the piece or even just one section I then use it as my "manuscript" for playing into my DAW. I don't make notes about what to do in the arrangement - I trust the visual representation in the Arrange Window of Cubase to jog my memory, even with my more complex orchestral arrangements.
> Amazingly, playing at the piano, I can pick up quite easily the pieces I have written down in this format from years ago, just by reading my "manuscript", so it does work for me quite well.


@Hywel,

Thanks for your interesting 'shorthand' note method. This is very helpful for me. I will print a bunch of your pdf, and keep them handy to jot down my melody, chords, and bass notes. 

This is the type of tips, and feedback that I was initially hoping to read on this thread. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## GNP (Aug 16, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you are composing strictly using your DAW, and do not use a Notation program as a first phase of your composition process, basically if you compose by going directly to your DAW, how do you keep track, or organize your ideas ?
> 
> ...


I don't really bother. Once it's done, it's done.


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## averystemmler (Aug 16, 2021)

I've tried a few different approaches. Five-ish years ago, I had Sibelius sending MIDI and some kind of timecode sync into my DAW (DP at the time, I think?) over a bunch of inter-application MIDI ports, with some custom scripts and symbol definitions to make it work with modern sample libraries. It worked much better than expected, and helped for some projects where I actually needed notation, but it was a little obnoxious to maintain and troubleshoot.

These days, I just work with my eyes in the piano roll, with the entire project's MIDI data visible (togglable as needed) and tracks color-coded, so I can make sense of harmony, orchestration, and CC data in the same editor window. Without a complete visual map of everything happening, I can't keep track of anything and it all devolves into bedlam.

I also recently started noting the rough harmony in markers, as a quick reference while recording or editing. It helps when coming back to old projects too, or juggling multiple.

When starting a new project, I try to work it out horizontally as quickly as possible by some combination of important instruments/synths/textures and a basic, quantized keyboard sketch. The keyboard sketch part gets muted and replaced with more elaborate instrumentation, but the notes are still visible in the MIDI editor as a simple guide. For fun, I also send the MIDI out from the sketch track to a Keith McMillan K-Board under my monitor, which lights up with the sketch-harmony in real-time (which is even more useless than it sounds).


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## Steve_Karl (Aug 16, 2021)

I keep it, compile it, all in the DAW - but then organise all projects by *** folder structure.

I might write a bit in Sibelius, or on paper, or record one track guitar ideas in Sound Forge that are intended to be assigned to an orchestral instrument and then eventually import midi from Sibelius to the DAW and also sometimes import rough audio ideas from Sound Forge as guide tracks into the DAW.
I always have a lot of markers in the DAW and often move potential of ideas to way past the end of the composition and drop markers with a note attached.

Once I have one instrument carrying the idea for a part of, or all of a composition, the orchestration seems to take care of itself. I just flesh it out. Sometimes if it's not quite right I'll drag/copy a whole section (length of bars) out to way past the end and drop a marker with a note, and then I can break that area down and change it, feeling safe to not have lost the original idea.

I also always save a version up of the project file when ever a major change is made and also often when starting back at it the next day - like: Song_Name_1a, Song_Name_1b etc.
using 1a through 1z then moving to 2a and have sometimes in rare occasions gone as far as 9a - 9z.

I'll rename any notable version that I feel might be needed to be kept for reference as something like
Song_Name_3b_KEEP_THIS.

I have a .bat file that automatically backs up all of my work to 2 other network PCs.
One click at the end of the day and I then have 3 copies of everything on 3 different computers.

***
I organise projects by Folder Structure.
Folder called "Song_Name"
then inside of that are folders called
audio
mix

I organise my memory of my work in a program called NoteTab Pro with dates and file paths like:

17:59 03.25.18
Rediscovered
E:\sk_film\Classical\Mechanical_Man\audio
-------------------------------------
05:13 04.03.18
E:\sk_film\SK_Omnisphere\Convergence\audio
E:\sk_film\SK_Omnisphere\Convergence\mix
-------------------------------------
12:03 04.17.18
E:\sk_film\_begin\Pepper_Grinder\audio
-------------------------------------

NoteTab Pro has the ability to search for text so I can search the term "pepper"
and immediate find the path to the audio folder.

E:\sk_film\_begin\Pepper_Grinder\audio
and the project folder which is always the same minus the last \audio so
all project files are in
E:\sk_film\_begin\Pepper_Grinder\

The same with mix - they will always be in
E:\sk_film\_begin\Pepper_Grinder\mix

It's the only way I can keep track of everything with out going nutz.


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## Steve_Karl (Aug 16, 2021)

averystemmler said:


> These days, I just work with my eyes in the piano roll, with the entire project's MIDI data visible (togglable as needed) and tracks color-coded, so I can make sense of harmony, orchestration, and CC data in the same editor window. Without a complete visual map of everything happening, I can't keep track of anything and it all devolves into bedlam.


Very similar for me. (Color-coded always! and I live in PRV)
I always use Screensets (10 available per project file)
and organise screensets like: (general example)
01 = everything
02 = strings
03 = brass
04 = WWings
05 = Percussion
06 = audio mix
7 through 09 = what ever !?!?!
and
10 = Loading Dock - so I can watch Kontakt Loading samples

Inside of a Screenset:
I'll often have 2, 3, 5, and sometimes more PRV windows pinned in each screenset along with an Audio console view and a main track view.
Screensets are lockable so switching back and forth I always see exactly the view
I was at when I (Locked and left) left that screenset. 
If I've mangled the look of the screenset dirung editing, when it's locked, switching to an other and then back puts it back to the look when I last locked it.

So, as an example - inside of SS02 I'll have PRVs organised by necessity
All Strings - (every string track)
One special section of the song that just uses Pizz - (just the pizz tracks)
what ever
what ever

Switching PRV views within a screenset
is done by CRTL+SHFT+Arrow (let or right)
Switching track view to PRV is by typing "D" (it always remembers which PRV I was last viewing)
and
Switching Screensets is either by drop down menu or by typing
1, 3, 7, 0 (0 for 10) across the line above qwerty.

Also noteable:
In one PRV that might have 20 or more tracks in it
I can tap on a note
That track is then selected on the right
I can then disable the view of that track - Type a "V" to invert the view

And

I'm now only seeing that one track and all of it's controller data.
Inverting the view hides all of the other 19 tracks.
Type an "A" and now they're all again visible.

Same works for 2 or more tracks.


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## Markrs (Aug 16, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> @Markrs,
> 
> Thanks for the helpful feedback.
> 
> So, once you have your composition in your notation program, you export it as midi, and import it into your DAW to work on the production of the sounds, but what about the performance aspect of the phrases, do you find them robotic/rigid due to the absolute quantized note values the notation program produces, when you import the midi data into your DAW ?


It is pretty easy to use the humanise functions as well in a DAW. However I don’t always export the midi and then import it. I sometimes input via the piano roll or play it in myself with a breath controller for dynamics and using Divisimate. This approach is ideal if you are using a DAW template and one in Divisimate.

If I am being more experimental I will use a leap motion controller, to morph the sound (I can do this is the DAW, but I sometimes use Unify to do this as well). I can also use the leap controller for changing articulations on the fly as well, though I still mainly do that afterwards.

Just to say this is so a relatively new approach for me and not something I fully embedded in yet.


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## Markrs (Aug 16, 2021)

Steve_Karl said:


> Very similar for me. (Color-coded always! and I live in PRV)
> I always use Screensets (10 available per project file)
> and organise screensets like: (general example)
> 01 = everything
> ...


This looks like an interesting and useful approach, might give that a try!


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## Markrs (Aug 16, 2021)

Steve_Karl said:


> Very similar for me. (Color-coded always! and I live in PRV)
> I always use Screensets (10 available per project file)
> and organise screensets like: (general example)
> 01 = everything
> ...


As you mentioned Screensets, are you doing this in Cakewalk?


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## quickbrownf0x (Aug 16, 2021)

I put Post-Its all over my DAW screen to organize/keep track of things, but that's out of habit from my day job. You can't teach an old fish to trick a dog... or something like that...

By the end I can't even see my Key Editor, apart from maybe a few notes. So that's why I decided to switch to making ultra-minimal music.


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## Markrs (Aug 16, 2021)

quickbrownf0x said:


> I put Post-Its all over my DAW screen to organize/keep track of things, but that's out of habit from my day job. You can't teach an old fish to trick a dog... or something like that...


😂


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## Steve_Karl (Aug 16, 2021)

Markrs said:


> As you mentioned Screensets, are you doing this in Cakewalk?


Yes. Sonar Platinum 2017.01 ( 23.1.0.32 )
The last version before the original Cakewalk company destroyed the PRV with the new design, and then went bankrupt.

I also do have a very recent version of Cakwalk by Bandlab (CbB) installed but the PRV is still less functional and user friendly than my final version of Platinum 2017.01.
I suppose it's a matter of getting used to having to use mouse clicks rather than hot keys in 'most' instances, but there are still a few deal breakers, other than that, for me.


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## AllanH (Aug 16, 2021)

A few years ago I transitioned to DAW exclusively. I still "think" in notation, but I now consider the piano roll view (PRV) a clearer representation of intent than notation. I typically play all tracks into the track's PRV and do minor editing in the PRV (e.g. overlaps, adjust velocities, etc.).

The PRV is not as dense with respect to information as notation, so I try to assist myself by adding markers (e.g. ThemeA-1 and ThemeA-2 for variations) and a chord track. I just play in the chords and let Cubase note them as e.g. Am7. I mute the chord track, but it gives me a simple reference when I orchestrate.

I often start with a piano track that comprise the basic idea and then expand and orchestrate around it. Often the Piano track gets deleted or simplified.


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## JohnG (Aug 16, 2021)

I use the notation editor -- in my DAW, not a notation program as such -- all day. That allows me to keep track of what's going on. I almost always write some things down on paper before and during composition. However, these days it seems that those who hire us require a really good-sounding demo, so that typically is a constraint; eventually it has to go into the DAW to get "passed."

And then, if you have an orchestra replacing things, you sort of do it all again.

I am somewhat surprised at those who use the piano roll, but I guess it's just a different way and if you can do it, great. [edit: for clarity, I am not insinuating that piano roll is inferior in any way. It doesn't matter how you get there, only that you get there]

If the final result is going to be realised exclusively by electronic instruments, composing first in a notation program and then transferring to a DAW seems really time-consuming.

[edit: Digital Performer has an exceptionally good notation window]


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## stevenson-again (Aug 16, 2021)

Hmm...I don't really see my method described here. I thought my way was the only "right" way. 

(That was just my little joke).

1. I have a Strings, Brass, and Wind Ensemble patch underneath the sections of my orchestral templates. I sketch in there and copy and paste out to the instrumental tracks.

2. I use my own custom program changes to switch articulations. I do not use key switches, or artic IDs, or 1 track per articulation method. Because I keep these consistent I am able to copy and paste between all parts including between different sections (brass to strings etc). Massive time saver.

3. Typically I start sketching in a file with just the basics (those ensemble patches) and develop sounds and ideas for that track before it goes into my template. I copy and paste or import the idea into the template.

4. I write much as I used to compose on paper. So I have a "proper" score, and I step time nearly everything. As a result I can go to score and parts almost straight away or export the XML to sibelius.

5. I use markers to navigate around the score and set playback positions.

That's it. Not rocket surgery,


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## Loïc D (Aug 16, 2021)

averystemmler said:


> I've tried a few different approaches. Five-ish years ago, I had Sibelius sending MIDI and some kind of timecode sync into my DAW (DP at the time, I think?) over a bunch of inter-application MIDI ports, with some custom scripts and symbol definitions to make it work with modern sample libraries. It worked much better than expected, and helped for some projects where I actually needed notation, but it was a little obnoxious to maintain and troubleshoot.
> 
> These days, I just work with my eyes in the piano roll, with the entire project's MIDI data visible (togglable as needed) and tracks color-coded, so I can make sense of harmony, orchestration, and CC data in the same editor window. Without a complete visual map of everything happening, I can't keep track of anything and it all devolves into bedlam.
> 
> ...


I have exactly the same approach.
Disclaimer : hobbyist here


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## Saxer (Aug 16, 2021)

In Logic the MIDI recording looks mostly very readable in the score editor. Even in my empty song "template" there's a Rhodes track ready to play and record. I play main melodies and chords into this sketching track and later record while reading this sketching from screen. From time to time I have some kind of "Karaoke" jobs, making playbacks or new arrangements of existing tracks for singers or ballets. I record the bass first and from there I write the chord symbols in Logic's score editor and work from there.

For more complex film cues I add one or two sketching tracks... one for bass, one for comping, and an acoustic piano for melodies. That way I have single and non overlapping elements of the arrangements in the score editor.

Even when I write an arrangement in Dorico I start in Logic too with the same sketching tracks. I export the sketch tracks as MusicXML into Dorico because MIDI recording to readable notation works best in Logic. I'm much faster this way than starting with an empty Dorico project.

And for synth and sound based cues that doesn't follow chord progressions or song structures I simply fill the bars with empty regions that I name like "add movement"... "angry"... "stop here"... "color change" and so on. That works especially when dealing with temp tracks without copying them: I go along and write down what the temp music does and what works well. After having the "silent construction" written into the DAW I mute the temp track and fill the space with own music. It's easier to play something when a kind of structure is already there. It's a technique I copied from dancefloor guys... they often work along an existing track to copy the structure.
This "working along an existing track" is also a great learning or inspiration tool (i.e. copying the orchestration but using own themes and chords).


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## Chris Richter (Aug 16, 2021)

JohnG said:


> I am somewhat surprised at those who use the piano roll, but I guess it's just a different way and if you can do it, great.


Why do you think the piano roll is inferior? My answer would be shapes I guess. I was working mainly with notation, too. But recently I got curious if piano really *is* inferior. Say you first write everything out with a piano on one to four tracks each, where would the piano roll fall short?


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## JohnG (Aug 16, 2021)

Chris Richter said:


> Why do you think the piano roll is inferior? My answer would be shapes I guess. I was working mainly with notation, too. But recently I got curious if piano really *is* inferior. Say you first write everything out with a piano on one to four tracks each, where would the piano roll fall short?


I don't think it's inferior and I didn't mean to suggest that. There is no method of creation that is inherently "inferior" to any other. The only question is whether the result is good or not.


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## Chris Richter (Aug 16, 2021)

Sure, sorry for the confusion. I meant for you specifically.
Edit: I mean what is your specific reason for using the notation view instead?


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## JohnG (Aug 16, 2021)

stevenson-again said:


> 2. I use my own custom program changes to switch articulations. I do not use key switches, or artic IDs, or 1 track per articulation method. Because I keep these consistent I am able to copy and paste between all parts including between different sections (brass to strings etc). Massive time saver.


That is intriguing. Can you expand?



stevenson-again said:


> export the XML to sibelius.


That's what I do too, but because DP's notation thingy is so good, the amount of cleanup is pretty limited. I rarely use step-input unless the material is super fiddly.


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## JohnG (Aug 16, 2021)

Chris Richter said:


> I mean what is your specific reason for using the notation view instead?


I can see what's going on more quickly with notation purely because I'm accustomed to it. Besides, it's handy; I continue to read scores to learn new things and notation is the only way to do that. If someone grows up with the piano roll instead, I would think that would allow you to compose just fine. It doesn't, however, allow you to read others' published scores, which could be a limitation depending on what you're trying to do.

*The main thing is: compose. It doesn't really matter how you do it.*

@stevenson-again has some good time-saving ideas, which one needs if working in TV or games or something. There is never adequate time.


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## stevenson-again (Aug 16, 2021)

JohnG said:


> That is intriguing. Can you expand?
> 
> 
> That's what I do too, but because DP's notation thingy is so good, the amount of cleanup is pretty limited. I rarely use step-input unless the material is super fiddly.











The program changes can be triggered by my stream deck, though most of the time I just input them manually - it's just as fast.

First image is a portion of the template I am working on atm. The red lines show where my ensemble sketch patches are. The brass ensemble patch is very often included in the arrangement - often where it is just brass chords. It sounds just right.

The program names correspond to banks in Kontakt and I can mix and match the various libraries that I use. For example, I could blend LASS staccatos with Albion staccs, or make my own marcato patch out of a sustain and a long staccato.

The ensemble patches also have the same articulation structure meaning I can copy and paste programming from them to any instrument.

Like you, I use the score editor, and I used to use the full score almost exclusively, but with arrange open as well, it slows LPX down too much. It's a real pain. Another pain is that the score zoom is out of whack and jumps around all the time. Very very annoying. I use the other editors almost equally, but it depends what I am trying to see. As you can see though, my arrange means my score looks like a proper score and I can interact with it.


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## musicalweather (Aug 16, 2021)

For a full orchestral piece: I play in the whole composition as a piano part (piano reduction) into my DAW, Digital Performer. Then view the part in DP's Quick Scribe and print it out on to paper and then make notes in pencil about how I will expand the score into the various orchestral instruments. Then I play those parts into DP. I make use of Quick Scribe quite a bit, and will occasionally print out onto paper the various instrumental parts as well.


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## mikrokosmiko (Aug 16, 2021)

When composing for media, I do not use a notation program. The pieces tend to be way simpler than the concert ones, with only one mood from the beginning to the end, so I only draw the main lines on paper, play them into the DAW and start orchestrating on the go:


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## giwro (Aug 16, 2021)

I’m a notation guy, but I get the frustration with the resulting “mechanical” performances. What works well for me is the intelligent randomization Finale can do with Human Playback…. It helps immensely and keeps me from having to go back and edit extensively in the DAW. While it doesn’t always make the same choices I would make, I can get it close enough that it doesn’t require hours of work - the tempo variations are especially nice (I’ve even been known to export a tempo map and apply it to a StaffPad file…) My frustration is that even as a nearly 30-year veteran in Finale, I can enter notes faster in Dorico… so I’ve been known to bash out the notes in Dorico, export XML to Finale, and so on…

Another workflow I’ve found useful is using the tempo tap performance feature in Notion -that combined with being able to edit velocity, tempo (on a note-bynoteand note length after the fact is very helpful.

My goal is to get it as close to what I want with either the automatic tools in finale or tempo tap in notion BEFORE heading to the DAW - then I can do further fine-tuning. If I just want an expressive performance and am checking balances, I resort to Noteperformer… it’s only when I want a better quality sound that I switch to samples.


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## BlackDorito (Aug 16, 2021)

For further opinions/comments ..





Who composes in Notation programs and why?


In my several years on Vi-C, I have the impression that most members compose directly into DAWs and most developers therefore gear their products to DAW composers. That makes me an anomaly in that I compose into a notation program. I'm looking to get the perspective of members who have perhaps...




vi-control.net





Unlike many, particularly those with tight deadlines, I do almost everything in notation (Sibelius). The orchestral score view is familiar and I've learned to quickly navigate, compress/expand, edit, etc. in Sibelius. I then export each instrument as an audio track into Cubase or Reaper and do final mastering there. The main tradeoffs are (i) the need to add human nuances to passages where it makes a difference (which is by no means most passages for me), and (ii) needing to tweak the score with CC ramps, KS and other control data. Though Christian Henson says you need to ride the mod/expression controllers moment by moment, I've been able to get away with using ramps in Sibelius. For humanized passages, I record in Cubase, then import the MIDI into Sibelius and then carry on with the rest. Occasionally I'll do 'spot humanization' by manually tweaking a few velocities, start-times or durations .. those are the times when I curse Sibelius for not having piano roll.


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## quickbrownf0x (Aug 16, 2021)

Markrs said:


> 😂


Mark, I'm surprised you're not doing this. Well, actually I thought you might've made something fancy in Miro, you cheeky bastard.


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## jamieboo (Aug 16, 2021)

I write exclusively in the Cubase Score Editor. Entering each note by mouse.
So the Score Editor takes up 80% of the screen. I have the Project View reduced to a thin vertical strip running down the right side of my screen, the bottom zone of which displays the Key Editor so I can make initial, broad stroke changes to CCs and stuff.
It's a very cumbersome method, but I've just got used to it.


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## jbuhler (Aug 16, 2021)

For me, it's totally ad hoc and on a case by case basis. I'll use the arrangement and marker track in Logic once the piece gets beyond a certain extent, but that varies case by case. Occasionally I'll mark root progressions (rather than harmony) as a guide but more often tempo indications or letters or other kind of section marker to keep track of the larger form. When working with a full orchestra, each section of the orchestra has an ensemble patch of some kind that I can use for working things out. I also have a small music notebook on the desk. Oddly, I rarely work with notation view in the DAW, even when writing counterpoint, but work it out in the piano roll, unless I hit a complication, in which case I turn to the notebook. If I'm sketching for a particular section of the orchestra I'll use the ensemble patch; if I'm sketching in general, I'll use a strings patch. I dislike sketching with a piano, since for me it tends to turn everything into piano music dependent on my hand position... But once I get a piece going, I'm usually working directly in the tracks, that is, without the ensemble sketching, aside from writing all the individual woodwinds and brass on single tracks if I'm not using legato. (So flute parts, say, will be written initially in one track and then broken out later if needed.)

I also tend to draw in automation, especially for supporting parts. This is not ramps per se, but a variety of shapes that I have memorized for different kinds of effects. (Ramps are one of these simple shapes, but not all shapes are simple like that.) These shapes were derived from riding automation (modwheel, expression, vibrato) and studying the general shapes that yielded the results I wanted. I find I'm faster and more accurate now with the drawing than with recording automation, though I'll go back and record when I don't get results I like. (But then I study the result I like and try to incorporate that shape into my inventory.)

I find versioning is the hardest part of working in the DAW. Logic's project alternatives is a help, but you have to be consistent about how you name and save. And it's almost impossible to go part way back. Merging versions is also not the simplest thing to pull off.

Adding and deleting time in the middle of a piece is a big friction because of the way it breaks the midi, which can be a major headache if you have lots of parts. Even moving sections around is a pain, if there isn't a clean stop and start between sections. 

When editing the form and large-scale structure, things like Studio One's scratch pad are a big help since it allows you to keep multiple versions of things and immediately swap them. You can create alternatives with Logic, but that involves having to reload the template to change. Or you can copy the material within the same project, but that involves complicating the project, which can get confusing when you have 3 or 4 versions of the same bit. So you have to stay on top of naming your markers or arrangement tabs. I imagine something like DP's chunks is very handy for this sort of thing.


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## stevenson-again (Aug 17, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> hen working with a full orchestra, each section of the orchestra has an ensemble patch of some kind that I can use for working things out.


Snap.


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## stevenson-again (Aug 17, 2021)

jbuhler said:


> I find versioning is the hardest part of working in the DAW. Logic's project alternatives is a help, but you have to be consistent about how you name and save. And it's almost impossible to go part way back. Merging versions is also not the simplest thing to pull off.


Alternatives are useless to me. I know some people like them but they have no utility for me at all. For versioning, I need to have the version visible in finder so I can trace my way back. You are right, you have to be consistent about naming and saving. My method for saving is whenever I am about to "upset" the arrangement permanently, then I move to a new version.

One thing I do is start another version AFTER the one I am working on in the arrange. That way I can magpie or even revert to the original or blend the versions if necessary.



jbuhler said:


> Adding and deleting time in the middle of a piece is a big friction because of the way it breaks the midi, which can be a major headache if you have lots of parts. Even moving sections around is a pain, if there isn't a clean stop and start between sections.


Yep. Major PITA. What would help is if we could draw a vertical line that could snap to grid positions either side of the starting point - a bit like the tool we use for separating voices in the score. That we can cut out the piece of the jigsaw we need.


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## Steve_Karl (Aug 17, 2021)

Versioning is easy if you
Song_Name_1a
- 1b
- 1c
etc.

Then either sorting by name or date keeps the newest at the bottom of the list.


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## jbuhler (Aug 17, 2021)

stevenson-again said:


> Alternatives are useless to me. I know some people like them but they have no utility for me at all. For versioning, I need to have the version visible in finder so I can trace my way back. You are right, you have to be consistent about naming and saving. My method for saving is whenever I am about to "upset" the arrangement permanently, then I move to a new version.


I don’t find them quite useless. I generally key each version to a bounce so I have that for reference. But they could be a lot more useful. And I agree that being able to see both versions side by side is key. 



stevenson-again said:


> One thing I do is start another version AFTER the one I am working on in the arrange. That way I can magpie or even revert to the original or blend the versions if necessary.


Except blending is hard if you can’t see the two side by side. I will often copy the arrangement within the project to try out a different approach. That way I can go back and forth and the original is in the main project as well. But this can yield very large measure counts if the original is already long. 

Another thing I do is temporarily disable core audio if I have two versions of the project open at the same time and I know I’ll be transferring midi so Logic isn’t continually reloading instruments.


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## jaketanner (Aug 17, 2021)

muziksculp said:


> I agree.
> 
> Thanks for the helpful feedback, and advice.
> 
> ...


The use of a notation program is based off the end result. If your mockup is going to live players, then it's a must. If it stays in the box, then it doesn't matter, unless you are going to sell the score, or just want it for posterity or is required by your client to have just in case. However, some people find using a notation program easier to arrange and orchestrate off of. 

My case, I am taking a course now that has live recordings almost every month...so the compositions we do are all getting recorded live, so notation is a must. I use Dorico. I also have Staffpad, and sometimes it's easier for me to write with it because I can quickly erase and change things, I can leave bars out or create ideas then come back to them, without totally destroying the look of the score. I find it easier to work with, but I also don't know Dorico very well...and I don't ever notate anything usually...this is the first time I'm doing it for the course. 

If you use Cubase Pro, the built-in notation software is probably the most advanced out of any DAW, and if it's not too complicated of a score, you will be just fine with the on board notation. You can do a lot with it...it's one reason I got Cubase Pro again...I have a large 52 piece session late September, and plan on using Cubase to help speed things along, then engrave in Dorico. 

But all in all...if anyone is using live musicians, they are using a notation program...very few, as in almost no-one...use pen and paper. NOT, that the ones that use Notation programs can't, it's just not really part of our industry anymore...aside from JW, the late Jerry Goldsmith and maybe 1-2 more, everyone else uses software...So eventually, you will need it.


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## muziksculp (Aug 17, 2021)

Hi,

Thanks for all the helpful feedback related to this topic.

I noticed that quite a few posts are discussing their experience with Notation programs, or when they use them, and why. But just as a reminder, my post was not about using a notation program to compose, but rather just the opposite, focusing more on not using a notation program, but using only a DAW to compose, and how you go about organizing things so you can keep track of the compositions, i.e. Structure of the piece, chordal changes, notes of phrases/melodies, ..etc.

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## Romy Schmidt (Aug 18, 2021)

Never. Pencil and paper first, then a DAW to make a sound file, if necessary. Bach once spoke of 'Klavierritter'. Nowadays one can speak of 'DAWritter'.


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## _Adam_ (Aug 23, 2021)

Index cards are your friend.


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## from_theashes (Aug 23, 2021)

Coming from Rock/Metal-Guitar (just basic music-theory-knowledge), I improvise with chor-progressions, melodies and rhythm on an ensemble patch and orchestrate on the fly. Once a track is finished, it gets mastered, exported and put online. Never felt the need „to keep track“ of compositions, chord changes, etc.^^


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## darkogav (Aug 23, 2021)

I don't know if what I do really counts as "composing" .. but, for what I do, I mostly use folder structure and try to make it a simplified kanban board but with only folders. Basically its just folders for _idea, _progress1, _progress2, _mixing, _mastering, )completed.









What Is a Kanban Board and How to Use It? Basics Explained.


The Kanban board is a workflow visualization tool. Learn the basics, its important features, and how to use a Kanban board in Agile to boost process efficiency.




kanbanize.com


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