# LEGATO - how would you ask STRING players to play THIS [audio]?



## Soundbed (Apr 26, 2021)

The purpose of this thread is to clarify the *musical terms and specific instructions* real conductors and composers who've had their works performed by [string] orchestras might use to clarify how to play a passage of recorded audio.

The intent is to always start with a real, recorded performance of real, live players (usually in an ensemble) in audio, and then solicit feedback from the group like, as a composer / orchestrator, "how would you notate this?" or possibly as a conductor / composer / first chair, "how would you tell players to play this, if it wasn't clear from the page?"

We are trying to hone in on a type of "long form" legato that was popularized in the sample community by CSS, but the audio examples here should be LIVE players only. We are trying to understand the /inflection point(s)/ at which the "longest" legato becomes the shortest portamento.

The answers may vary per instrument section i.e., cellos may sound more portamento-y than violins with larger legato LEAPS esp in larger section sizes due to their longer fingerboards.

The underlying question of "how should we describe this?" is the result of several legato conversations I've had at VI_Control over the last couple months, but this particular conversation should be free of one burden that has potentially bogged down many previous conversations: the question of what sounds REAL?

Because we will only be listening to "real" strings players, it is not a question about whether or not the sample libraries sound "realistic" or not or whether or not the transitions sound "fake" or "give away" that it's a sample library. We are trying to discuss what live players can do, and how to describe what they've done.


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## Soundbed (Apr 26, 2021)

This example popped up "randomly" in a playlist on Apple music yesterday ... when I heard the first fifteen seconds or so, I thought about my previous VI-C conversations about "long form" legato transitions.

The questions:

1. What words and/or marking(s) would you put on the score to get the players to instantly understand to play these legato transitions in this manner?
2. If the first rehearsal / take did not yield this sound based on what was on the page, what would you as a conductor / composer say to the players to encourage them to play more like this?

The audio example:

*ONLY the intro phrase(s) *from 0:03 to 0:16


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## Daryl (Apr 26, 2021)

All you need to do is put the slurs in the right place, and mark it espr. The players will do the rest.


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## Rob (Apr 26, 2021)

what Daryl says


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Apr 26, 2021)

This example sounds like portamento to me. Could be a finger position change (on the string playing), not sure, too, but I'm not a string player. If I would play it with a sample library I would use portamento.

My personal opinion on legato in sample libraries is that you don't need these different transition lengths*. If you want this longer, espressivo type (and this is in almost every case what people are talking about when meaning longer transitions) you play either on the string (sul), which is a finger position change you hear, or an even longer portamento. In a large ensemble you hear all kinds of these things mixed. It's the best you let the players decide on which string they play, everyone does or prefers it in a different way.


---
* Ok, if a library doesn't offer finger positions, of course, a longer transition is useful/needed. Finger positions are only available in very few libraries, e.g. VSL Dimension Strings or, in some way, Hollywood Strings. I would say that these laggier, longer transitions in sample libraries try to fake/imitate these position changes, in my opinion.


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## CT (Apr 26, 2021)

This is an interesting idea for a thread. It can seem like an important thing in mock-ups if one cares about getting close to the real thing, and I spend a lot of time thinking about it and how to approach it but I won't pretend to have much useful input (hmm that didn't stop me from pontificating though did it?), also in part because my experience as a real player in an ensemble context is with brass, and there are a lot of nuances to string playing.

However... as Daryl pointed out, this is something that in reality is best left to the players to interpret based on sensible phrase markings**, unless you actually want the opposite of what they're likely to do, which makes me wonder how much wisdom there is in introducing too much control over the behavior of VIs in this respect. I know leaving interpretation up to real players is not equivalent to being locked into one style of recorded transitions in fake strings, but I've really been wondering recently about how much emphasis is put on legato, and if maybe it's been a bit overthought and over-engineered by developers. I don't expect that many here agree on that though!

**Any real string players should correct me but I believe the general rule is that un-slurred notes will be played with alternating bow strokes and slurred ones will be played in a single bow stroke; tempo will also play a big role in this. "Portamento" is more of an unconscious stylistic choice of how smoothly to connect larger intervals but I don't think it should always be equated with less affected transitions that are simply executed on the slower side, and an actual deliberate "glissando" is quite rare and clearly notated by a line between the two notes. 

The biggest variation, I think, is in how quickly alternating bow strokes/finger changes on the same bow are executed, and also the character of upbowing vs. downbowing. There are so many little things that happen in those moments that are dependent on musical context and intention, I just can't imagine ever being satisfied by an attempt to exhaustively model that with samples, and I think that's the crux of the sampled legato problem.


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## NoamL (Apr 26, 2021)

Daryl said:


> All you need to do is put the slurs in the right place, and mark it espr. The players will do the rest.




The cellos are simply moving higher on their A string in this passage. Changing hand position, to reach that G note, is necessary and clear from the sequence of notes itself. The composer doesn't need to mark it portamento or anything else.

Fewer markings shows respect for the musicians who are professionals not machines to be programmed. People on VI-C always want to know how to give players the "right instructions" when in reality, we will get more out of a recording session by *putting in the markings that have nothing to do with musical expression.*

1. boxed measure numbers
2. Tempo marks with deltas e.g. if you have a tempo of ♩=90 later followed by ♩=100 it should be marked Faster ♩=100 [+10]
3. Cues notes! (cues are important in faster music with uneven phrases, less so in slow music with square phrases).
4. Logical and readable number of bars per system (usually no more than 4!)
5. Even the simple double bar line can help orient the players to where phrases begin and end.

unglamorous stuff but it saves time and money and helps them give you beautiful music. It is more important to make the sheet music clear for a 1st time reader than to fill it with all kinds of "musical instructions"

I have been guilty of marking a passage "beautifully" (as in: play beautifully) which when you think about it, may be the stupidest musical instruction you can give.


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## Soundbed (Apr 27, 2021)

Thanks for your responses, everybody!

Before I say anything about the above, here's another example, with a slightly different question:

1. For the CELLO part, would you put ANY portamento (or other?) markings on the score, so the players to instantly understand to play these connected transitions in this manner?

2. If the first rehearsal / take did not yield this sound based on what was on the page, what would you as a conductor / composer say to the CELLO player(s) to encourage them to play these transitions like this?

FIRST 2 Minutes only:





(I am specifically picking on cello because of the fingerboard length and changing hand positions can create a quick "slide" sometimes.)


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## Soundbed (Apr 27, 2021)

Daryl said:


> All you need to do is put the slurs in the right place, and mark it espr. The players will do the rest.





Rob said:


> what Daryl says





NoamL said:


> The cellos are simply moving higher on their A string in this passage. Changing hand position, to reach that G note, is necessary and clear from the sequence of notes itself. The composer doesn't need to mark it portamento or anything else.
> 
> Fewer markings shows respect for the musicians who are professionals not machines to be programmed.


Follow up question about "the right place" for those slur markings in this example:

For those first 10 connected notes, would you mark them all within the same slur?

Or would most string players connect those first 10 notes, even "across slur markings" when playing espressivo?

(Or would you write 2-3 shorter slurs under a larger 10 notes phrase marking? )

Or @NoamL are you implying that even a slur is not needed — it would be implied, if "only" espr. were written?

EDIT - I recognise notation has many approaches and there can be many right answers in context ... I am asking for multiple opinions based on today's market for recording a score to a movie, show or game such as this example.


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## tonaliszt (Apr 27, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> 1. For the CELLO part, would you put ANY portamento (or other?) markings on the score, so the players to instantly understand to play these connected transitions in this manner?


It's a high tenor clef cello part - this sound, to me, is the default. Especially if it is a solo part or section solo. This expressive high sound is something they've certainly practiced a lot, and potentially even the reason they decided to spend their life playing the cello


Soundbed said:


> 2. If the first rehearsal / take did not yield this sound based on what was on the page, what would you as a conductor / composer say to the CELLO player(s) to encourage them to play these transitions like this?


If you're not getting that sound the problem might be a few things;
Section size isn't big enough - potentially have the 1st chair cello play out more, or make it a single-player solo (if the expressivity is what you want).
The players aren't good enough for the line - you'll probably hear tuning issues and are out of luck.
As others have mentioned - the slurs in the part would encourage this more than no slurs and the indication 'legato'. You might ask that they increase the length of the slurs (but this is gonna eat up your session time and is not really worth it).

EDIT: Mic positions also play a role in this - I can try and find an example from my sessions which demonstrates this. Essentially some of those soloistic transitions can become lost or obscured the farther the mics are from the instruments.


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## Soundbed (Apr 27, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> this sound, to me, is the default.


That's what I assumed, thanks.


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## NoamL (Apr 27, 2021)

Ok so, I would consider these to be well prepared parts, that would achieve what the composer wants. And as best as I can tell, this is what they're actually playing.

Isn't Gordy a badass, by the way? 

Will maybe have time to type some explanations of these later this evening.


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## Bman70 (Apr 27, 2021)

In the internet era, probably the best thing would be to just send the performer a link to an audio example and say "this is the kind of style I want." I agree that extensive bowing notation for multiple pages might get redundant, as mentioned above it's sort of default to play in a fluid manner in the absence of notation to the contrary. Without regard to key or time signature, something like the below would get the point across (writing for violin), but again probably doesn't need this much explicit bowing.

One thing that might be worth explicit attention is the 'glissy' transition between notes 4-5 in example 1. I don't think it merits a full-on portamento (fig. 1 below), but I've seen indications such as a shorter dash (fig. 2 below), which will suggest to slide in. It may be simply a position change and often players will add a flourish there. But some will take effort to hide a position change, so it doesn't hurt to indicate if you want a 'lazy' shift.

fig. 1





fig. 2


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## Rob (Apr 27, 2021)

or


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## tonaliszt (Apr 27, 2021)

tonaliszt said:


> EDIT: Mic positions also play a role in this - I can try and find an example from my sessions which demonstrates this. Essentially some of those soloistic transitions can become lost or obscured the farther the mics are from the instruments.


Here's the example with the different mic positions. First, we have the cello 1 close mic, then the tree center, then a full mix. 



All of the slides and transition details really aren't heard in the tree at all. 

Sheet music was pretty basic, and I believe this was the 2cd or 3rd take, with the only comment being about the positioning of the grace notes. This was also recorded at an A-tier film scoring studio with very good players (but keep in mind it's not a section line).


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## José Herring (Apr 27, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> This example popped up "randomly" in a playlist on Apple music yesterday ... when I heard the first fifteen seconds or so, I thought about my previous VI-C conversations about "long form" legato transitions.
> 
> The questions:
> 
> ...



Daryl has it right. 

The only thing I would add is to put the word cantabile in the score. That way the players will interpret the music in a lyrical manner. 

In translating works from samples to live players one needs to remember that the samples haven't yet caught up to the full capabilities of really good players in a great space. So I would give minimal instructions and just write a long phrase mark, with the word cantabile and let the lead players figure out bowing and phrasing. They will surprise you. It's what they do best.

By the way Gordi Haab is amazing.


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## NoamL (Apr 27, 2021)

OK so here are some principles that are demonstrated in the sheet music I made for you.

(BTW I'm sorry but BMan's parts are not correct.)

fwiw I am a former cellist and orchestrate occasionally on stuff, although I'm not on the level of e.g. @bryla @JJP etc.

1. Fewer marks are better. The parts are readable and avoid 1st-take problems.

2. String players DON'T use phrase markings. For us, a slur is always a bowing instruction: play these notes in one bow. The musicians will shamelessly pencil in better slurs if the printed ones aren't good. So if you're not confident, just let the musicians mark it. Phrase slurs aren't needed and will be read as (bad) bowing indications. Also, slurs over slurs (as in piano music) have no meaning for string players.

3. The thing all y'all are calling "portamento" is just the sound of shifting hand position, in the context of slow and emotional music. If you mark it portamento or with a line, you may get more than you bargained for!!

4. "Why are there so few slurs." Slurs (=bowing), and "connecting the notes," are two different concepts. Separate bows can be connected smoothly & seamlessly, and in slow and emotional music like this, they'll do it naturally. It's a good example of why musicians don't need to be "programmed"; they bring their musical intelligence to the job.

5. Arranging up and down bows to match the natural "breathing" & phrasing of the tune is important. There are some rules of thumb... A big one is "downbows are for downbeats" - all musicians will understand both these pieces begin up-bow without any mark! Also "a long crescendo is better on an upbow (see bar 9 of the 2nd piece) and vice versa decrescendos on downbows" and "downbows and upbows should roughly balance out in duration."

6. As @Mike T said, "tempo plays a huge role" - the time duration of a bow needs to make sense for the character & dynamics of the music. Both pieces are slow; at 95 bpm but still "espressivo", you could see something like this instead:






This is also why you see fewer slurs when the cellos are playing fortissimo and very broadly. We want them to use the whole bow on those huge notes at the top.


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## Bman70 (Apr 27, 2021)

NoamL said:


> (BTW I'm sorry but BMan's parts are not correct.)


As in, not a correct score for the music in the video? Doh, it was a barely functional melody solely for the purpose of showing some ways to suggest legato / port.

p.s. have to disagree that a slidey flourish into some notes is "only" a shift from say first to fourth position. As a composer, you can feel free to indicate where you _really_ want an expressive drop-in vs. a cleaner transition. Otherwise you might not get it. I'd probably not play it by default since I don't want to over-interpret.


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## Rob (Apr 27, 2021)

NoamL said:


> 2. String players DON'T use phrase markings. For us, a slur is always a bowing instruction: play these notes in one bow. The musicians will shamelessly pencil in better slurs if the printed ones aren't good. So if you're not confident, just let the musicians mark it. Phrase slurs aren't needed and will be read as (bad) bowing indications. Also, slurs over slurs (as in piano music) have no meaning for string players.


? Not my experience... strings parts do have a lot of phrase markings, sometimes down to the smallest detail. Working on orchestral scores on a daily basis, I can confirm this. It's true that sometimes players will find better solutions, but meanwhile you have provided a clear idea of what the phrasing is. Bow markings are a different thing of course


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## molemac (Apr 28, 2021)

NoamL said:


> This is also why you see fewer slurs when the cellos are playing fortissimo and very broadly. We want them to use the whole bow on those huge notes at the top.


This is how Berlin strings and staffpad interprets it , couldn’t get the same expression on the triplets though , tried a fermata on the D but it was too much , I guess I would say to the players on the session just lean into the a little D please.


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## Soundbed (Apr 28, 2021)

NoamL said:


> Phrase slurs aren't needed and will be read as (bad) bowing indications.


Thanks, I have distant memories of these "lessons" but music school was so long ago! And I always thought that many things I heard to do – or not to do – were later contradicted in some other class or semester.



Rob said:


> ? Not my experience... strings parts do have a lot of phrase markings, sometimes down to the smallest detail. Working on orchestral scores on a daily basis, I can confirm this. It's true that sometimes players will find better solutions, but meanwhile you have provided a clear idea of what the phrasing is. Bow markings are a different thing of course


Yep, okay, so I guess I am not forgetting that many things I remember were later contradicted, which is why my memory is so confuzzled, lol!


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## Soundbed (Apr 28, 2021)

NoamL said:


> The thing all y'all are calling "portamento" is just the sound of shifting hand position, in the context of slow and emotional music


This is exactly why I chose these examples, to help facilitate this conversation.

While I've not spent extensive time rehearsing my few string arrangements with large sections, I've spent some time in rehearsal rooms with solo players and ...

Now, having worked with samples for so long, and being on VI-C quite a bit the last few months, I've developed almost a bit of "cognitive dissonance" recently about how these position shifts sound – particularly on celli and sometimes on basses – because it's often simply MISSING and of course quite difficult to script; the sample player would need keep track of positions and legato based on them. I know some products that might approach this, but ... most products aren't going to have this position shift.



NoamL said:


> Slurs (=bowing), and "connecting the notes," are two different concepts. Separate bows can be connected smoothly & seamlessly


I think this is why I found Con Moto such an interesting product, because it uses the bow change connection and put it on every transition. But wait, I keep going back to samples. This thread is supposed to be about real players!  



NoamL said:


> "downbows are for downbeats" - all musicians will understand both these pieces begin up-bow without any mark!


Ah yes! You are bringing back so many memories! I actually learned most of this stuff very long ago, but the knowledge lay dormant for a couple decades!



NoamL said:


> Also "a long crescendo is better on an upbow (see bar 9 of the 2nd piece) and vice versa decrescendos on downbows" and "downbows and upbows should roughly balance out in duration."


These two are


NoamL said:


> at 95 bpm but still "espressivo", you could see something like this instead:


right, got it.


NoamL said:


> This is also why you see fewer slurs when the cellos are playing fortissimo and very broadly. We want them to use the whole bow on those huge notes at the top.


thank you so much for going further into the example to point this out. your replies went beyond what I was expecting for this thread and were extremely helpful!
at a very distant part of my memory but I really appreciate that you are bringing these concepts back to the front of my awareness!


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## Soundbed (Apr 28, 2021)

molemac said:


> This is how Berlin strings and staffpad interprets it , couldn’t get the same expression on the triplets though , tried a fermata on the D but it was too much , I guess I would say to the players on the session just lean into the a little D please.



interesting. okay, who wants to book a studio session with an orchestra to record a bunch of music with real players?


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## CT (Apr 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> interesting. okay, who wants to book a studio session with an orchestra to record a bunch of music with real players?


Sounds good to me. Can I finally delete all my libraries?


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## JJP (Apr 28, 2021)

As a copyist, these clefs cracked me up.

Bass clef... Ah, gotcha!


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## molemac (Apr 28, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> interesting. okay, who wants to book a studio session with an orchestra to record a bunch of music with real players?


If you come to London , I’m in air with 37 strings in June. + a very good orchestrator, I could send you some before and after , to see how my sampled demos are orchestrated and copied for the real players. 
The violas will have their own clef poor bastards, it’s always a note out.


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## JohnG (Apr 28, 2021)

NoamL said:


> 2. String players DON'T use phrase markings. For us, a slur is always a bowing instruction: play these notes in one bow. The musicians will shamelessly pencil in better slurs if the printed ones aren't good. So if you're not confident, just let the musicians mark it. Phrase slurs aren't needed and will be read as (bad) bowing indications. Also, slurs over slurs (as in piano music) have no meaning for string players.


I agree with Noam. Growing up singing and playing wind instruments, it's hard to jettison the habits of phrase markings, but for strings it is simply not done. As he writes, 'a slur is always a bowing instruction...."

To the OP, regarding the original phrase in question -- one approach is to just write, "legato, [molto] espressivo" or, "legato, cantibile" and count on the players to make it magic. Almost always they arrive at a better solution than (non string-player) composers.

And while I sort of agree with eschewing adverbs like "beautifully," I still use them sometimes. If you write "Noble" over a French Horn line, they may privately find it kind of lame, but they certainly know what to do with it.


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## South Thames (Apr 28, 2021)

> And while I sort of agree with eschewing adverbs like "beautifully," I still use them sometimes. If you write "Noble" over a French Horn line, they may privately find it kind of lame, but they certainly know what to do with it.



This is why I always think Italian is very useful for slightly offsetting the embarrassment/brazenness of essentially writing down how you hope the music will sound. It puts some distance between you and the words (unless of course you're Italian...).


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## JohnG (Apr 28, 2021)

South Thames said:


> This is why I always think Italian is very useful for slightly offsetting the embarrassment/brazenness of essentially writing down how you hope the music will sound. It puts some distance between you and the words (unless of course you're Italian...).


When you're working with non-English-speaking players, I definitely agree. But if I'm saying something lame, I don't mind using something really simple, even (especially?) if it means letting the players feel superior to me. The main thing is that they know what you want.

*Lots of Directions?*

I have myself (and heard John Williams does this too) written quite a few words, a paragraph even, over a passage if I think it's unclear what's wanted. For example, if you have tremolo sul ponticello, you could want something scary / ugly, or simply something odd and intriguing. If you have "sul tasto senza vibrato," you could write, "Childlike transparency" or "Eerie frozen death." I think the players execute differently depending on what's written into the part.

Another example: if you write a whole note (semi-breve) with a squiggly line over it in a trombone part and write, "Drunk" over it, he will know what you want, at least if he's in Los Angeles or London.

But this is a matter of preference and probably not for everybody.


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## Double Helix (Apr 28, 2021)

NoamL said:


> . . .I have been guilty of marking a passage "beautifully" (as in: play beautifully) which when you think about it, may be the stupidest musical instruction you can give.


Not at all stupid, Noam, but I do know what you mean; therefore, speaking of musical instructions. . .
Back in my full-time musician days, I was with a group from Illinois (I was the only Floridian) who recorded an album out in Seattle, at Kaye-Smith Studios. This was 1978. The producer asked if I’d be interested in writing an orchestral coda for “No Lover’s Fool,” one of the songs on the album—and I jumped at the chance.
There were other string parts being orchestrated by a pro arranger, David Jackson, who was, at that time, reportedly *the guy* in the Pacific Northwest; I got some valuable input from David, including the fact that viola parts are written in the alto clef. Oops! (so I had to re-write those parts, but that was not a problem, being that middle C, as you are well aware, is on the middle line—Who knew? Live and learn)
When it came time to record the string parts—as I recall, the producer had booked 8 violins, 4 violas, and 4 celli—I distributed the parts to the musicians. Concertmaster Irwin Eisenberg pointedly (sardonically) voiced an objection to my written direction that the parts were to be performed “aggressively.”
“Aggressively? Perhaps ‘Assertively’.“
I said to Mister Eisenberg, “It says ‘aggressively,’ I’d like it to be played aggressively. Can y’all play it aggressively? Problem?”
He muttered something under his breath, my blood ran cold, and I could see some of the other musicians kind of squirming in their seats (I later found out that NOBODY ever “talked back” to Irwin Eisenberg—and who was I? Georg Solti?)
So we ran the part once, then recorded it, doubled it, and it was over, and I was able to start breathing again.
Both Win Kutz (the producer) and David Jackson later said that it was about time someone told Eisenberg where to get off. . . _which was not my intent_; I just had a specific attack in mind. I had no idea I’d breached decorum.
​


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## Soundbed (Apr 29, 2021)

molemac said:


> If you come to London , I’m in air with 37 strings in June. + a very good orchestrator, I could send you some before and after , to see how my sampled demos are orchestrated and copied for the real players.
> The violas will have their own clef poor bastards, it’s always a note out.


I’ll check with my travel agent / wife. 😉


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## thesteelydane (Apr 29, 2021)

Bman70 said:


> In the internet era, probably the best thing would be to just send the performer a link to an audio example and say "this is the kind of style I want." I agree that extensive bowing notation for multiple pages might get redundant, as mentioned above it's sort of default to play in a fluid manner in the absence of notation to the contrary. Without regard to key or time signature, something like the below would get the point across (writing for violin), but again probably doesn't need this much explicit bowing.
> 
> One thing that might be worth explicit attention is the 'glissy' transition between notes 4-5 in example 1. I don't think it merits a full-on portamento (fig. 1 below), but I've seen indications such as a shorter dash (fig. 2 below), which will suggest to slide in. It may be simply a position change and often players will add a flourish there. But some will take effort to hide a position change, so it doesn't hurt to indicate if you want a 'lazy' shift.
> 
> ...


Assuming this is for violin or viola, there are a couple more considerations actually, as there are different types of shifting. If I were to play this on the D string for example, I would have my first finger on the E, then slide it up to a G below the A, then play the A with the 2nd finger. This is the way most people shift up, always to a note below the target note with an anchor finger. It's how we measure distance on the finger board. Why not slide up to the A with the 1st finger? Well, if the phrase continued up I probably would, but since I have to play a G I would have locked myself into a position that would cause an awkward string crossing in the middle of a lyrical phrase - something we like to avoid.

Alternatively you could play the whole thing Sul G, in which case I would slide from E to A with my 3rd finger, so you would not only get the full slide, but also a nice juicy vibrato as the 3rd finger is the best vibrato finger for most of us.

In short there are many, many variables best left to the player to decide. Just write the decided emotion and let them decide.


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## molemac (Apr 29, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I’ll check with my travel agent / wife. 😉


Should be fun, just allow an xtra ten days to quarantine 🤢 .recording a whole album in a day. Alastair King ( Harry potter Pirates of the Caribbean etc) orchestrating and conducting


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## AlexSonicsMusic (May 7, 2021)

As a professional cellist, I think composers working with samples are mostly too fearful of not being clear enough. Most pro musicians will interpret the phrases you throw at them in the way you imagined them and beyond. As for portamento, we do it naturally when it serves the phrase, sometimes it's inevitable when we are on the highest string.

I actually just made a video about this very topic which might help clear up some terms so that you can go into the rehearsal with confidence.


It covers all these jumpled up terms like legato and portamento (which is mostly actually NOT legato.)

Cheers


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