# USB-C Thunderbolt 3 to Multiple m.2 NVMe Hub



## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 5, 2021)

Anyone ever see one of these?

I've found single m.2 enclosures.

But 3 or more? 

Unicorns!


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## newbreednet (Nov 5, 2021)

Was interesting to research this. 

I found ...one. 






OWC Express 4M2


Four M.2 SSD bays with pure adrenaline inducing Thunderbolt 3 performance.




eshop.macsales.com


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 5, 2021)

newbreednet said:


> Was interesting to research this.
> 
> I found ...one.
> 
> ...


Looks great - fantastic sleuthing.

Thanks!

2 questions for OWC:

DIY because it doesn't come with m.2 sticks? 

Do you have to use RAID software?

I'm surprised more of these aren't on the market.


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## Prockamanisc (Nov 5, 2021)

The single drive read speed for this OWC enclusure is 817MB/s. I know because I asked them a few weeks ago. It's paltry compared to the NVMe drives themselves. 

The full speeds that they advertise only happen when you're using them in RAID. I would stay away from that drive until they figure out that bottleneck. This was on my list until I found out about the slow speeds.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 5, 2021)

Prockamanisc said:


> The single drive read speed for this OWC enclusure is 817MB/s. I know because I asked them a few weeks ago. It's paltry compared to the NVMe drives themselves.
> 
> The full speeds that they advertise only happen when you're using them in RAID. I would stay away from that drive until they figure out that bottleneck. This was on my list until I found out about the slow speeds.


excellent info! thanks.

i may just go with a single m.2 to USB-C enclosure

OR

a multi Thunderbolt 3 dock with single m.2s.


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## Prockamanisc (Nov 5, 2021)

I personally am going to wait to get any new storage until the new Mac Pros get announced next year (I'm assuming at WWDC in June). Then I'll have a clear picture of the future and be able to weigh all of the costs. Companies also might release some new enclosures to go along with them, too.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 5, 2021)

for the record:

Windows 10 Pro here; worth mentioning since Thunderbolt on Windows is different than on Mac.


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## rnb_2 (Nov 5, 2021)

There are inherent issues with multi-drive enclosures over Thunderbolt because NVMe speeds have outstripped Thunderbolt bandwidth. A single fast NVMe drive is faster than the Thunderbolt 3 spec allocates for data after setting aside bandwidth for the possibility of an attached display (unfortunately, that bandwidth is not given back if you don't have a display attached).

Maximum data bandwidth for Thunderbolt 3 is ~2.8GBps, so that's what the OWC 4M2 is made to do via RAID. With NVMe drives, you use Thunderbolt RAID for capacity and data protection, not speed - I got a 4M2 in late 2018 to go with my i7 Mac mini because I knew I needed 2TB of storage, and 2TB NVMe drives were much more expensive than 4x500GB.

As it turns out, Thunderbolt 3 is a much better match for SATA SSDs, as four of those won't quite saturate Thunderbolt's available bandwidth (a five-drive enclosure would be close to ideal, but I haven't seen one of those). OWC has a very nice four-drive 2.5" enclosure that works very well for something like that, but it isn't as small as the 4M2.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 5, 2021)

this gets a better rating than the OWC

and 5 bays


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## rnb_2 (Nov 5, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> this gets a better rating than the OWC
> 
> and 5 bays



Cool, but that's a USB 3.2 enclosure, not Thunderbolt, so ¼ the total bandwidth (and ~½ of Thunderbolt's data bandwidth), so you would saturate the connection with anything over two SATA SSDs. It's also made for 3.5" drives, so it's a lot larger than OWC's Thunderbay Mini, but that's not an issue if you have the space.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 5, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Cool, but that's a USB 3.2 enclosure, not Thunderbolt, so ¼ the total bandwidth (and ~½ of Thunderbolt's data bandwidth), so you would saturate the connection with anything over two SATA SSDs. It's also made for 3.5" drives, so it's a lot larger than OWC's Thunderbay Mini, but that's not an issue if you have the space.


yes, ugh - i should know this.

here's the spec for my Dell - just a sanity check:


USB
Two USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports with PowerShare
One Thunderbolt 3 port (USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-C) with power delivery


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## rnb_2 (Nov 5, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> yes, ugh - i should know this.
> 
> here's the spec for my Dell - just a sanity check:
> 
> ...


That spec is confusing me - there's no reason to be so specific with the USB spec if it's a Thunderbolt 3 port - but it might just be a Dell thing, catering to a PC audience that doesn't deal with Thunderbolt that often.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 5, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> That spec is confusing me - there's no reason to be so specific with the USB spec if it's a Thunderbolt 3 port - but it might just be a Dell thing, catering to a PC audience that doesn't deal with Thunderbolt that often.


glad it's not just me.

you think THAT'S confusing, checked out my tower specs

ASRock Tai Chi XE x299











25 Thunderbolt AIC Header (TB1)

the way I understand it, with this header, I would add a Thunderbolt 3 add-in card.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 6, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> OWC has a very nice four-drive 2.5" enclosure that works very well for something like that, but it isn't as small as the 4M2.


this?


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## rnb_2 (Nov 6, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> this?


Yes - I have the Thunderbolt 2 version, purchased in 2015, and it's worked very well (it's an archive drive these days, so no SSDs in it currently, just four 2TB HDDs in RAID 4). It's attached to my Mac mini server in my TV cabinet.


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## gives19 (Nov 6, 2021)

newbreednet said:


> Was interesting to research this.
> 
> I found ...one.
> 
> ...


Yes, A product specialist at Avid was talking to me about this very thing about a month ago. Super fast. MY only concern was that is seemed kind of tiny and flimsy, but maybe that is not an issue. Amazing specs though. It would be great for portability and speed for sure! Not sure about my day to day use here in my room. Still waiting until Jan to see what new it out.


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## rnb_2 (Nov 6, 2021)

gives19 said:


> Yes, A product specialist at Avid was talking to me about this very thing about a month ago. Super fast. MY only concern was that is seemed kind of tiny and flimsy, but maybe that is not an issue. Amazing specs though. It would be great for portability and speed for sure! Not sure about my day to day use here in my room. Still waiting until Jan to see what new it out.


The 4M2 is small, but I wouldn't describe it as flimsy.


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## gives19 (Nov 6, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> The 4M2 is small, but I wouldn't describe it as flimsy.


Well OK then-. My bad. Have not had my coffee yet. I'll still wait and see what comes down the pike.


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## Technostica (Nov 6, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> That spec is confusing me - there's no reason to be so specific with the USB spec if it's a Thunderbolt 3 port - but it might just be a Dell thing, catering to a PC audience that doesn't deal with Thunderbolt that often.


Most people don't own any TB products, even Apple users, so having little need to know about it, giving the USB spec is helpful.
As USB 3.x can vary between 500Gbps and 2,000Gbps, it's handy to know which version it is.
It would have been better if they had added more data and given the max data rate.


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## rnb_2 (Nov 6, 2021)

Technostica said:


> Most people don't own any TB products, even Apple users, so having little need to know about it, giving the USB spec is helpful.
> As USB 3.x can vary between 500Gbps and 2,000Gbps, it's handy to know which version it is.
> It would have been better if they had added more data and given the max data rate.


Yeah, that was my assumption, but as always, quoting the USBIF's ever-shifting, crystal-clear name for a spec is the opposite of illuminating. Just tell us the maximum data rate - why is that so hard?


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## gives19 (Nov 6, 2021)

Might look into this for quick archives of all of my libraries, which are ever changing. Amazing speed rrnb_2 for sure!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 7, 2021)

this would be perfect for my mobile laptop.

i would need to get the T3 addon card for my ASrock tower.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431354-REG/samsung_mu_pb2t0b_am_2tb_x5_portable_ssd.html/overview


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 7, 2021)

doubtful i'll get T3 for my tower.

next best i think would be the USB 3.1 Gen 2 ports on the motherboard.

Samsung T5 - 2tb?

SAMSUNG T5 Portable SSD 2TB - Up to 540MB/s​


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## rnb_2 (Nov 7, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> doubtful i'll get T3 for my tower.
> 
> next best i think would be the USB 3.1 Gen 2 ports on the motherboard.
> 
> ...


The X5 drives are nice, especially that speed in a bus-powered unit, but they are fabulously expensive compared to other options. There are many users here who have used the T5 drives, and they work well. That looks like a good compromise for your two machines.


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## gives19 (Nov 7, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Cool, but that's a USB 3.2 enclosure, not Thunderbolt, so ¼ the total bandwidth (and ~½ of Thunderbolt's data bandwidth), so you would saturate the connection with anything over two SATA SSDs. It's also made for 3.5" drives, so it's a lot larger than OWC's Thunderbay Mini, but that's not an issue if you have the space.


Plus I read on the reviews varying issues with noise, but who knows.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 7, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> The X5 drives are nice, especially that speed in a bus-powered unit, but they are fabulously expensive compared to other options. There are many users here who have used the T5 drives, and they work well. That looks like a good compromise for your two machines.


it does, yes. 

would the T5 allow Kontakt library speed and throughput?

thank you SO much for your input with all of this.

a bit of a learning cuve.

now, if I could find a 4 drive bay USB 3.2 enclosure similar to the Thunderbay, i'll be good to go!


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## Nimrod7 (Nov 7, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> There are many users here who have used the T5 drives, and they work well.


The T7's are double speed (≈1000Mb/s) via USB 3.2. Kind of great for samples, much less expensive than the X series.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 7, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> The T7's are double speed (≈1000Mb/s) via USB 3.2. Kind of great for samples, much less expensive than the X series.


thanks - inch by inch!


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## rnb_2 (Nov 7, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> The T7's are double speed (≈1000Mb/s) via USB 3.2. Kind of great for samples, much less expensive than the X series.


Good catch - I keep losing track of which generation Samsung is on with their externals.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 7, 2021)

To confirm: Thunderbolt 3 is backward compatible to USB 3.1 Gen 2?

I can get 1050MB/s on the Dell and the ASRock with the Samsung T7 drives??

*DELL 5530*






USB
Two USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports with PowerShare
One Thunderbolt 3 port (USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-C) with power delivery



*ASRock Tai Chi XE x299*






thanks a million everyone!


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## rnb_2 (Nov 7, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> To confirm: Thunderbolt 3 is backward compatible to USB 3.1 Gen 2?
> 
> I can get 1050MB/s on the Dell and the ASRock with the Samsung T7 drives??
> 
> ...


Yes, Thunderbolt has USB modes as part of the spec - this is one of the reasons that Apple jumped the gun on going Thunderbolt-only on the 2016 MacBook Pros, since it's relatively easy to convert just about anything to Thunderbolt (USB, HDMI, DisplayPort, etc).


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 7, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Yes, Thunderbolt has USB modes as part of the spec - this is one of the reasons that Apple jumped the gun on going Thunderbolt-only on the 2016 MacBook Pros, since it's relatively easy to convert just about anything to Thunderbolt (USB, HDMI, DisplayPort, etc).


ah HA!

then I could use the X5 at Thunderbolt speeds on the Dell, and USB 3.1 Gen 2 speeds on the ASRock.

hmmm.

then again...


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## rnb_2 (Nov 7, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> ah HA!
> 
> then I could use the X5 at Thunderbolt speeds on the Dell, and USB 3.1 Gen 2 speeds on the ASRock.
> 
> hmmm.


No, unfortunately - Thunderbolt has the USB spec built into it, but USB3.x doesn't have Thunderbolt built into it (USB4 includes Thunderbolt 3 in the spec). So, you'd probably want a T7 drive, since it's the fastest that will work with the ports you have on both of your computers.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 7, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> No, unfortunately - Thunderbolt has the USB spec built into it, but USB3.x doesn't have Thunderbolt built into it (USB4 includes Thunderbolt 3 in the spec). So, you'd probably want a T7 drive, since it's the fastest that will work with the ports you have on both of your computers.


ok, just so i'm understanding:

the DELL has Thunderbolt 3, so the X5 should run at Thunderbolt levels, yes?

and couldn't I use the X5 on the ASRock with USB3.1 G2 specs?

sorry for the repeated questions.

this may be moot, since X5 availability and pricing is on the stupid side right now.


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## rnb_2 (Nov 7, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> ok, just so i'm understanding:
> 
> the DELL has Thunderbolt 3, so the X5 should run at Thunderbolt levels, yes?
> 
> ...


The X5 is Thunderbolt *only*, so will not work at all when plugged into a USB 3.1 Gen 2 port. USB 3.x drives can work when plugged into a Thunderbolt port, but Thunderbolt drives can’t work when plugged into a USB 3.x port.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 7, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> The X5 is Thunderbolt *only*, so will not work at all when plugged into a USB 3.1 Gen 2 port. USB 3.x drives can work when plugged into a Thunderbolt port, but Thunderbolt drives can’t work when plugged into a USB 3.x port.


Thanks again!

Just ordered a T7 2tb

I'll report after some tests


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 10, 2021)

seriously underwhelmed with the T7 - returned.

quite possibly my unrealistic expectations.

i'll leave my systems as is and be frugal with the laptop sample library workflow.

i'll be more diligent with my research for my next major workstation builds in 2022.

THUNDERBOLT 5!


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## colony nofi (Nov 10, 2021)

Another option in the thunderbolt direct attached storage world is now just getting huge m.2 drives

Sabrent makes a 8tb pci gen 3 m.2 which when put into a tb3 enclosure becomes a very cost effective way of transporting around a tonne of sample libraries. And it’s tiny. And fast enough. When I’m back at the studio tomorrow I’ll run some benchmarks… from memory it was around 1800MB/s reads - with kontakt measurements on load showing 300MB/s - which is about the most you will see on an m.2 drive due to Code inefficiencies.


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## Paulogic (Nov 21, 2021)

Also looking for a faster drive then T5 or even T7. They work fine but I need more space
so upgrading to external NVMe seems logical.
So an Evo 980 Pro PCIe x4 drive, in an USB3.2 exclosure, would not work at the top speeds
of 3000 ?


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## rnb_2 (Nov 21, 2021)

Paulogic said:


> Also looking for a faster drive then T5 or even T7. They work fine but I need more space
> so upgrading to external NVMe seems logical.
> So an Evo 980 Pro PCIe x4 drive, in an USB3.2 exclosure, would not work at the top speeds
> of 3000 ?


No, unfortunately - 3GB/s is 24Gb/s, and USB3.2 tops out at 10Gb/s. Thunderbolt 3 (or 4) has total bandwidth of 40Gb/s (or 5GB/s), so could do it theoretically, but Thunderbolt reserves some bandwidth for video in the chain, which caps data at ~2.8GB/s.

Orico makes an enclosure that supposedly gets very close to that speed with a Samsung 970 EVO, but enclosures typically top out between 1.7GB/s and 2.2GB/s. Another option is the (very pricey) Samsung X5, which also hits 2.8GB/s in testing. Various Thunderbolt RAID drives will also get there, but only with multiple drives in RAID0.


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## Paulogic (Nov 22, 2021)

Thank you very much. I have no experience with those drives and exclosures at all.
Mostly a Mac IT guy and if Windows : basic Fuji workstations for my clients.

But... my personal wishes go beyond, haha.

I found a enclosure, in my area, which has the same specs. 






OWC Envoy Express TB3 externe behuizing Thunderbolt 3


De Envoy Express TB3 is een Thunderbolt 3-behuizing voor een M.2 NVMe SSD. Het is klein van formaat, dus perfect voor het kantoor van vandaag, of h...




www.alternate.be





Adding a Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2 TB would bring me the highest possible speed, I assume.
The 980 Pro of Samsung would not make it faster as the higher speed is not supported by
TB3 nor do I think this enclosure supports it.

I have TB3 and also use it for my 4K display but could easily change to HDMI 2.0 if this would
benefit the speed of the drive. I thinks I wouldn't notice any difference in screen quality as
my resolution is only set to 2K, which is already very small to read.


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## rnb_2 (Nov 22, 2021)

I actually have two of the OWC Envoy Express enclosures, and I like them a lot, especially that what looks like a captive cable is actually a standard Thunderbolt cable that attaches to a plug inside the enclosure. That said, they don't claim to reach the top Thunderbolt speed capability - their claimed top speed is ~1.7GB/s. That's plenty for everything I do, but they're not the fastest enclosures you can get.


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## Paulogic (Nov 22, 2021)

Nice to know I bought a good enclosure. Maybe not the fastest but my Mac Mini isn't the
most recent version. Still a 6-core i7 with 32 GB ram, for now...
As my iMac from 2015 goes down, I'l swap this mini for my daily job and buy a new Mini,
hopefully with the M1 series then.

Thanks everybody for your input !


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## Paulogic (Nov 24, 2021)

Installed the Samsung 970 Evo Plus in the OCW enclosure and connected to TB3 on my Mac Mini.
Copying files from and to, to swap around drives...
Some results :
Copying +/- 350 GB of libraries from T5 to the 970 Evo : 9 minutes.
Copying +/- 360 GB of libraries from T7 to the 970 Evo : 5 minutes.
Copying TimeMachine files (250 GB) from Sandisk SSD to reformated T5: 48 minutes. (both approx 500 MB/s)
When renaming the new Evo to the same name as the T7 had before, no problems of libraries not
found. Easy this is.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 29, 2021)

one of these finally showed on EBay.

now my laptop AND tower will have Thunderbolt 3.

new round of T3 Drive shopping!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Nov 29, 2021)

Paulogic said:


> Installed the Samsung 970 Evo Plus in the OCW enclosure and connected to TB3 on my Mac Mini.
> Copying files from and to, to swap around drives...
> Some results :
> Copying +/- 350 GB of libraries from T5 to the 970 Evo : 9 minutes.
> ...


once i get TB3 configured on my tower ASRock, your 970/OCW looks like the way i'll go at first.

then, i'll work up to a raid for backup - i think.

thanks for sharing your results!!!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 15, 2021)

Pro Data


Storage designed for outstanding performance and utility, and purpose-built for people who demand the most resilient protection for their digital assets.




iodyne.com


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## rnb_2 (Dec 15, 2021)

Saw that a couple days ago. As a workgroup server, it's interesting, since you can partition it multiple ways for multiple users, and it does allow connection via Thunderbolt via 2 connections per computer, allowing 5GB/s performance. Overall, I'm impressed with what they've done, though it would only be useful to a small subset of the people on this board, since it starts at ~$4k for 12TB.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 15, 2021)

my ASRock Thunderbolt 3 card finally came in.

install this weekend.

then i'll be on a serious hunt.


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## Nimrod7 (Dec 15, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Pro Data
> 
> 
> Storage designed for outstanding performance and utility, and purpose-built for people who demand the most resilient protection for their digital assets.
> ...


That's the poorest web product page, I have seen for a while. 
No specs, no decent pictures, no connector photos nothing. 

Their product description make no sense either: 

"Storage designed for outstanding performance and utility, and purpose-built for people who demand the most resilient protection for their digital assets."

What that means?

Am I missing something?

Of course thanks @Zoot_Rollo for posting, I wasn't aware it's existence, now that I know it's there, I need to actually find out what it does, and how.


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## rnb_2 (Dec 15, 2021)

Nimrod7 said:


> That's the poorest web product page, I have seen for a while.
> No specs, no decent pictures, no connector photos nothing.
> 
> Their product description make no sense either:
> ...


That's just the store page - the main site is at https://iodyne.com.


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## Nimrod7 (Dec 15, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> That's just the store page - the main site is at https://iodyne.com.


Now it make sense. Didn't go back thinking that is iodyne is the company name not the product name. But it's only one product. Thanks!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 17, 2021)

this to start?


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## rnb_2 (Dec 17, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> this to start?


I like them - see my post above for more details.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 17, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I like them - see my post above for more details.


how is SATA 6.0gb/s = Thunderbolt 3?


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## rnb_2 (Dec 17, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> how is SATA 6.0gb/s = Thunderbolt 3?


Not sure I understand? The OWC is about 2-3x as fast as a single SATA3 SSD, which tops out at a theoretical .75GB/s (6gbps/8), usually more like .5-.6GB/s actual.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 17, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Not sure I understand? The OWC is about 2-3x as fast as a single SATA3 SSD, which tops out at a theoretical .75GB/s (6gbps/8), usually more like .5-.6GB/s actual.


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## rnb_2 (Dec 17, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


>


Ah, I missed that. It’s a mistake - it’s an NVMe enclosure.


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## Soundbed (Dec 17, 2021)

Best value I’ve found that’s promising 1500MB/s (12Gb/s) is this Sabrent dual drive:

Sabrent Thunderbolt 3 to Dual NVMe M.2 SSD Tool-Free Enclosure (EC-T3DN) 

I don’t have it but it’s in my Amazon wish list.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 17, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Best value I’ve found that’s promising 1500MB/s (12Gb/s) is this Sabrent dual drive:
> 
> Sabrent Thunderbolt 3 to Dual NVMe M.2 SSD Tool-Free Enclosure (EC-T3DN)
> 
> I don’t have it but it’s in my Amazon wish list.



looks good, may jump on this one.

thanks.


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## markit (Dec 17, 2021)

I didn't have a good experience with the enclosure from Sabrent: it gets *very* hot. So hot I burned my hand (not exaggerating.) I suppose Sabrent addressed the issue by wrapping the enclosure in a gummy cover and market it as "portable". The funny thing is its adapter is bigger than my MacBook's, and definitely not portable. :D How long that cover will last before melting is something I didn't want to experiment myself LOL

I ended up buying a 4M2. The fan is very noisy, but I didn't have a single problem with it so far! I don't use it in RAID though, so I can't really help with any info about that specific use case.


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## Pictus (Dec 18, 2021)

markit said:


> I ended up buying a 4M2. *The fan is very noisy*, but I didn't have a single problem with it so far! I don't use it in RAID though, so I can't really help with any info about that specific use case.


Change/adapt a 120mm fan.


Is what I do with my GPUs


Or maybe a better heatsink and no fan




NAND SSD chips prefer to be warmer when data is written, but for data retention
it prefer to be cooler, SSD chip controller always prefers to be cooler.
This Sabrent heatsink is too efficient and maybe cool the NAND chips too much.
A good heatsink transfer the heat from the controller to the NAND chips, so the
controller gets colder and the NAND hotter, if the case has a too efficient airflow
maybe it will cool too much the SSDs.
HWiNFO64 is good to show the temperatures.
https://www.hwinfo.com/download/


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## Soundbed (Dec 18, 2021)

markit said:


> I didn't have a good experience with the enclosure from Sabrent: it gets *very* hot. So hot I burned my hand (not exaggerating.) I suppose Sabrent addressed the issue by wrapping the enclosure in a gummy cover and market it as "portable". The funny thing is its adapter is bigger than my MacBook's, and definitely not portable. :D How long that cover will last before melting is something I didn't want to experiment myself LOL
> 
> I ended up buying a 4M2. The fan is very noisy, but I didn't have a single problem with it so far! I don't use it in RAID though, so I can't really help with any info about that specific use case.


I was going to avoid the 4M2 due to the (relatively) slow read speeds with JBOD. 

What read speeds are you getting per disk?


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## rnb_2 (Dec 18, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I was going to avoid the 4M2 due to the (relatively) slow read speeds with JBOD.
> 
> What read speeds are you getting per disk?


I'm guessing that individual read speeds are going to be ~½ total TB bandwidth (they quote 1500MB/s per drive, which works out about right), vs the ¼ per drive of the 4M2.


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## Soundbed (Dec 18, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I'm guessing that individual read speeds are going to be ~½ total TB bandwidth (they quote 1500MB/s per drive, which works out about right), vs the ¼ per drive of the 4M2.


Exactly. It was your point in another thread that warned me. If I’m using nvme I want at least ~950MB/s


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## Cuelist (Dec 18, 2021)

I recently picked up a Sonnettech Echo Express SE1 and am using it with an Amfeltec Squid card that I borrowed from a friend. The Amfeltec holds 4 NVMe drives and is fanless. Works great.

I’m connected it via a TB3 -> TB2 adapter to my 2013 Mac Pro. My thought was to upgrade my drives in advance of an eventual new computer with much better Thunderbolt/drive throughput.

I’ve got three different kinds of drives so far. Two 4TB Sabrent 4TB Rocket Q’s, a 2TB Samsung 970 Evo Plus and a 2TB ADATA SX8200.

The 4TB Sabrents test at 1060MB/s Write, 1278MB/s Read
The Samsung tests at 646MB/s Write, 1318MB/s Read
The ADATA tests at 691MB/s Write, 924 MB/s Read

I’d expect these numbers to improve once I’ve switched over to a true TB3 connection.

I had always expected that NVMe drives run hot, so I did a test with the free app Mac Fan Control. 
After running the machine most of the day, the Samsung 970 Evo was was running at 50C, the ADATA at 36C and the Sabrents at 29C. 

Very surprised with how cool these Sabrent RocketQ drives run (assuming this software is accurate).


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## Cuelist (Dec 18, 2021)

One more thing: the Sonnetech Echo Express has a Sunon 60mm fan that I wish was quieter. I did swap it out for a Noctua NF-A6x25 60mm fan, but it made hardly any difference. The nice feature about the Noctua fan is that you can step down the fan speed with an included resistor cable. Given how surprisingly cool this whole setup runs, I'm thinking of trying it, although it is probably frowned upon by the manufacturers of the PCIe expansion box and the card.


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## markit (Dec 18, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I was going to avoid the 4M2 due to the (relatively) slow read speeds with JBOD.
> 
> What read speeds are you getting per disk?


JBOD ~700 due to PCIe lane. In RAID 0 it tops at 2800, but I bought 16TB total of NVMe at different times so I haven’t set that up yet.

If you find a more performant enclosure for four or more NVMe, please link!!! 🙏 My storage is ready to be swapped haha!


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 18, 2021)

finally got the Thunderbolt 3 adapter installed in my tower.

ordered the OWC Envoy Express Thunderbolt 3 Enclosure for NVMe M.2 SSD for $79 just to test it out.

i can use it to clone my boot drive, so the next time it goes down it won't be so painful.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 20, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> Yes - I have the Thunderbolt 2 version, purchased in 2015, and it's worked very well (it's an archive drive these days, so no SSDs in it currently, just four 2TB HDDs in RAID 4). It's attached to my Mac mini server in my TV cabinet.


rethinking the Thunderbay with SSDs for my 10tb sample library set.

with one recent m.2 already failed, i'm a little hesitant to go full tilt NVMe.

is this still the best option?




now I need to go down the RAID rabbit hole.


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## Soundbed (Dec 20, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> rethinking the Thunderbay with SSDs for my 10tb sample library set.
> 
> with one recent m.2 already failed, i'm a little hesitant to go full tilt NVMe.
> 
> ...



I have it. They sell it with a cut down version of RAID software that I was a little bothered by... wasn't the most user friendly software imho. Spent way too much time with it. I also don't like to turn it on because of the fan noise. The nicest part of it is an extra TB port to daisy chain. Personally I don't think I'll buy SCSI oops *SATA* again, except for backups. But i do video as well as music.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> I have it. They sell it with a cut down version of RAID software that I was a little bothered by... wasn't the most user friendly software imho. Spent way too much time with it. I also don't like to turn it on because of the fan noise. The nicest part of it is an extra TB port to daisy chain. Personally I don't think I'll buy SCSI again, except for backups. But i do video as well as music.


SCSI meaning with the RAID environment?

Can this be used without the RAID software?

Just 4 TB3 drives?


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## Soundbed (Dec 20, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> SCSI meaning with the RAID environment?
> 
> Can this be used without the RAID software?
> 
> Just 4 TB3 drives?


Oh shoot. I meant SATA not SCSI, sorry!

SATA is what bottlenecks SSD drives. The SSD that you own that uses SATA could conceivably be going as fast as NVMe M.2 form factor drives if they hadn't been manufactured to the SATA specifications.

No, I don't think the Thunderbay Mini it can be used without the software (I haven't figured out a way).

Not sure what you mean by 4TB3 drives ... drives aren't Thunderbolt as I understand ... they are built using SATA or NVMe connectors in this discussion. They can be used internally inside a laptop or desktop as-is. Or there is a hardware controller (with drivers, inside an enclosure) that converts NVMe or SATA to a USB or TB connection standard when it's external. This controller is often the thing that plays a major role in slowing down speeds, after the SATA connector slows things down.

And then there's cables. I have TB3 cables, USB SS 10Gbps cables and USB SS 20Gbps cables and need to keep track of which I plug into where based on the controller of the device and the bandwidth:

Finally there is the total bandwidth divided by number of drives, which I've been learning about from @rnb_2 ... if you have TB with 40Gbps divide by four drives and each will only get 10Gbps no matter how fast each is capable of ... if (and I don't know) all are running simultaneously ...?


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Not sure what you mean by 4TB3 drives ... drives aren't Thunderbolt as I understand ... they are built using SATA or NVMe connectors in this discussion. They can be used internally inside a laptop or desktop as-is. Or there is a hardware controller (with drivers, inside an enclosure) that converts NVMe or SATA to a USB or TB connection standard when it's external. This controller is often the thing that plays a major role in slowing down speeds, after the SATA connector slows things down.


I meant 4tb SATA SSDs connected to a TB3 port via something like the Bay.


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## Soundbed (Dec 20, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> I meant 4tb SATA SSDs connected to a TB3 port via something like the Bay.


Man I feel dense but I don't think I understsand your question.

yes it's a solid piece of gear and probably one of the best you can get for this purpose. But it does have a noisy-ish fan and does require the RAID software to access the drives. I hope that helps.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 20, 2021)

Soundbed said:


> Man I feel dense but I don't think I understsand your question.
> 
> yes it's a solid piece of gear and probably one of the best you can get for this purpose. But it does have a noisy-ish fan and does require the RAID software to access the drives. I hope that helps.


it does, mainly about the RAID software.

thank you for taking the time to respond.

the hunt continues.

as I finally descend into networking madness as well - alas, another thread.



but back to the attached storage thing:

I have 4 drives in my tower: three 2tb NVMe M.2 and one 4tb SATA SSD.

these are my sample library drives.

I'd like to replicate this with a moveable storage setup.


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## rnb_2 (Dec 20, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


> it does, mainly about the RAID software.
> 
> thank you for taking the time to respond.
> 
> ...


There is a version of the Thunderbay 4 mini that doesn't come with the RAID software for $249 - here is a link to OWC's site. You'd have to use someone else's RAID software (Apple has RAID available in Disk Utility) to get the best performance from it, since it otherwise will just appear as four separate drives, each one limited to SATA3 speeds (<600MB/s). I haven't had many issues with OWC's softRAID, but I have been running it for several years, so I'm probably used to any idiosyncrasies it might have.

A 4-drive SATA RAID0 setup on Thunderbolt 3 or 4 is actually a pretty good match for the spec, since that should top out at 2-2.5GB/s, just below the max data bandwidth over Thunderbolt (2.8GB/s). Unfortunately, when combined with its power supply, the Thunderbay mini isn't that portable - no multi-drive enclosure really is - and single-drive options almost never have a second Thunderbolt port for daisy-chaining.

Given your existing drives, the OWC 4M2 is a bit better for portability than the Thunderbay mini. I'd add one more 2TB NVMe and run it in RAID 4 or 5 - this won't help performance, which is still limited by Thunderbolt, but it would give you data protection in case of a drive failure. You can use a separate USB-C enclosure for your one SATA drive daisy-chained off of the 4M2, but be warned that the 4M2 power supply is still pretty large. This is probably the best match for the drives you currently have, and is about as portable as a multi-drive setup is going to get.


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## Sergievsky (Dec 21, 2021)

I wish I saw this thread before I bought another 4M2. I don’t know how I missed the slow speed of it in JBOD. Should’ve have known it needed to be raid…not one article review I read mentioned it. Another sorta disappointment was Caldigit TB hub (4 Usb&TB connectors)…before the 4M2, I had 2 little tb3 nmve casings, and was hoping I didn’t have to use 2 separate TB connections in my macbook. But using the hub it cut the speed in half. Again, something I should have known since in the end they’ll be sharing one port. I didn’t have a disk speed tester at the time and had other issues I was dealing with. 

anyway, this is all a good reminder for me to not get lazy with research & testing regarding these things, & why we have forums such as these. Thanks.
I’ll probably get two more little casings like the Orico or Sabrent mentioned to replace the 4M2 (there’s also a Wavlink with similar specs). The original 2 (it was a Fledging & a Glotrends case that worked well w/2TB each) I put in my iMac Pro because with the 4M2 I was getting speed issues with Omnisphere & some others when the sequence got busy.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 21, 2021)

just installed the OWC/970 2tb. nice design - free magnetic screw driver!

write speeds average 150 mb/s.

seems to handle Spitfire libraries so far. we'll see as i load things up.

i may use the 4tb on my laptop to serve a lean VEP7 - VSL, Spitfire, Hein, 8Dio, etc. fit.

limitations as inspiration.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 21, 2021)

Sergievsky said:


> I wish I saw this thread before I bought another 4M2. I don’t know how I missed the slow speed of it in JBOD. Should’ve have known it needed to be raid…not one article review I read mentioned it. Another sorta disappointment was Caldigit TB hub (4 Usb&TB connectors)…before the 4M2, I had 2 little tb3 nmve casings, and was hoping I didn’t have to use 2 separate TB connections in my macbook. But using the hub it cut the speed in half. Again, something I should have known since in the end they’ll be sharing one port. I didn’t have a disk speed tester at the time and had other issues I was dealing with.
> 
> anyway, this is all a good reminder for me to not get lazy with research & testing regarding these things, & why we have forums such as these. Thanks.
> I’ll probably get two more little casings like the Orico or Sabrent mentioned to replace the 4M2 (there’s also a Wavlink with similar specs). The original 2 (it was a Fledging & a Glotrends case that worked well w/2TB each) I put in my iMac Pro because with the 4M2 I was getting speed issues with Omnisphere & some others when the sequence got busy.


great info, thank you!

your post and the rest of this thread has saved me some major headaches and $$$.

oh, and the ASRock Thunderbolt 3 card worked!!! 2 TB3 ports and DP.

little miracles.

-

next up, that friggin gigabit switch i can't get to work.

the crossover CAT6 cable works flawlessly.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 22, 2021)




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## rnb_2 (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


>


I assume you let it run for a while? With my 1TB Intel 660P, I get about 950/1400 for the first few runs, but then it starts to slow down on writes, eventually settling in at about 150MB/s. I know there's a technical reason for this (the disk cache is off, so it shouldn't be that), but I can't find exactly what it is.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 22, 2021)

rnb_2 said:


> I assume you let it run for a while? With my 1TB Intel 660P, I get about 950/1400 for the first few runs, but then it starts to slow down on writes, eventually settling in at about 150MB/s. I know there's a technical reason for this (the disk cache is off, so it shouldn't be that), but I can't find exactly what it is.


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 22, 2021)




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## rnb_2 (Dec 22, 2021)

Zoot_Rollo said:


>


Copying libraries from one drive to another has been very unpredictable for me - some things go very fast, some don't. I know that there are differences between compressible and incompressible data, and already-compressed sample libraries may be slower to write than other types of data.


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## Sergievsky (Dec 22, 2021)

Aren’t these speeds overkill for sample streaming? like the owc 4M2, even in jbod at around 700MB/s, if samples are spread out over the four 1TB drives, isn’t that still better or at least as good as say, one 4tb nvme on one TB3 casing at full TB speed & throughput?


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## Zoot_Rollo (Dec 22, 2021)

Sergievsky said:


> Aren’t these speeds overkill for sample streaming? like the owc 4M2, even in jbod at around 700MB/s, if samples are spread out over the four 1TB drives, isn’t that still better or at least as good as say, one 4tb nvme on one TB3 casing at full TB speed & throughput?


headroom

similar to when i was searching for bass guitar amplification:

"it's not the power you have, but the power you have left."

i've been setting up my VEP7 templates on the slave (Dell 5530) with the OWC TB3/2tb - networked to my ASRock x299 tower.

getting good results with samples on the OWC after optimizing (Win 10) the DELL.

so far, happy with the purchase.


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## MusEric (Dec 23, 2021)

Hello all - I thought I'd chime in here (I'm new to the forum and this thread caught my eye!). It has been interesting reading everyones thoughts and experiences!

I have the OWC 4M2 plugged into my Mac (TB2 to TB3 adapter, and a nearly maxed out Mac Pro 2013 w/12 core and 64GB), and so far so good. I'm usually running orchestral samples in Logic Pro X, maybe about 50 to 70 tracks playing at once for a ~100+ track template (not that large from what I gather from other composers). From recent past projects, I think I'm more likely to max out the memory on my Mac first. One year ago when I purchased it, I also installed two 1T sticks (Intel 665P, in JBOD mode), and I've not yet maxed out this setup performance-wise.

My main complaint for this 4M2 is, as others have noted, is the fan noise. Fortunately I can at least close the door to my closet, er, machine room. 

Cheers!
Eric


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## Sergievsky (Dec 23, 2021)

MusEric said:


> Hello all - ……
> 
> My main complaint for this 4M2 is, as others have noted, is the fan noise. Fortunately I can at least close the door to my closet, er, machine room.
> 
> ...


Ya it’s a good, solid unit. I‘m reaching performance limits, so since I still have 2 extra slots available I might fill it up and spread some samples out. the fan on mine doesn’t bother me…besides, on the 2 faster little enclosures I have (similar to the owc envoy express) I bought a little fan marketed for celphones and stuck it over the 2 because they get extremely hot, so I have to live with a fan regardless what case I use.


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