# No job so far



## Christof (Jan 12, 2013)

Dear friends and fellow composers, at the moment I have absolutely NO gigs, even my concert life as cello player is paused due to finical problems in the classical concert world, I have some movie projects in the pipeline, some are very promising and exciting, but at the moment I have nothing to do except writing and doing self training.

I don't know if any producers, agents or directors are around in this forum, but I will share my showreel for any case.

Christof

[flash width=400 height=100 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://soundcloud.com/christof-unterberger/sets/showreel[/flash]

https://soundcloud.com/christof-unterberger/sets/showreel


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## germancomponist (Jan 12, 2013)

Yeah, bad times now for many people. So many studios, recording stages e.t.c. are closed now... .

I like your music, Christof, and I wish you good luck! o-[][]-o 

Gunther


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## germancomponist (Jan 12, 2013)

Christof,

During my late supper I listened the whole time. Very good music! My suggestion: Produce a short track with the different styles included and cut it together that it creates tension in listeners.


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## wst3 (Jan 13, 2013)

There is some magnificent music on your show reel!

If I were you I'd have a difficult time figuring out what to include, but I agree that you need a shorter version, 3-4 minutes tops, to really get someone's attention.

If you are not comfortable making the edits perhaps you have a co-conspirator that can help you out?

After listening to your reel I suspect you shan't be sitting idle for long!


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## Patrick de Caumette (Jan 13, 2013)

No gigs = network, network, network!
Best of luck!


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## Arbee (Jan 13, 2013)

Christof, whatever the reason you are without paying work at the moment it obvioulsy (OK, IMO) has nothing to do with your talent or your production quality - your music is superb. I've llistened to a lot of your tracks over the past couple of years and love what you do.

Are you producing albums of your own work (CD Baby or sim.)?

As Patrick said - network, network, network!

Best of luck, hope something lands for you soon o-[][]-o

.


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## Daniel James (Jan 13, 2013)

Hey mate, 

Good music. If there is one thing I have learned about this industry its that unless you have a big name...the work will not come to you, even if they were to start looking, another composer would have already contacted them directly.

Got to actively get yourself back out there.

Good luck 

-DJ


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## Christof (Jan 14, 2013)

Thank you guys for your encouraging and very kind words, actually I am networking, but this is not so easy in a country that is so far away from the film industry (Austria).

I even have some very nice gigs in the pipeline, but you never know what will happen!

I even have a demo reel, but I guess it is far too long 

https://soundcloud.com/christof-unterberger/cinematic-showreel

it is hard to pick the right pieces and cut the thing down to 3-4 minutes!

How are you guys doing networing and self promotion?
Do you write to clients or do you meet them physically?

Christof


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 14, 2013)

In my experience, nothing beats face-to-face, like parties, film premieres, bars, cool coffee houses, etc.


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## doctornine (Jan 15, 2013)

Christof - your music is excellent, but with the best will in the world, no-one is going to sit through a 52:43 long show-reel.

Maybe some other guys can chime in, but I'd aim for a reel thats 10 minutes max ( and frankly thats pushing your luck ), and to be honest you've got between 10 and 30 seconds of the first piece to grab and then keep your potential client's attention.


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## Arbee (Jan 15, 2013)

doctornine @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> Christof - your music is excellent, but with the best will in the world, no-one is going to sit through a 52:43 long show-reel.
> 
> Maybe some other guys can chime in, but I'd aim for a reel thats 10 minutes max ( and frankly thats pushing your luck ), and to be honest you've got between 10 and 30 seconds of the first piece to grab and then keep your potential client's attention.


+1 You have about 15 seconds to convince someone to keep listening, then maybe 5-7 mins of the very, very, best clips/extracts you have - max. If you're struggling to cut it down you might want to get someone else to do it for you, they're not so attached and will be more ruthless  

.


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## Jimbo 88 (Jan 15, 2013)

I really know of no one (including myself) who has gotten work on a demo. There is too much competition. You need to get in the trenches and Face to Face with people so they know you are going to be there for the long haul...


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## reddognoyz (Jan 15, 2013)

reel... hmmmmm.... nope don't recall ever getting a single solitary gig with one, even a requested one. I did, once, in 25 years, get a gig by calling a producer at the exact right moment, but other than that, no self promotion ever got me a durned thing.


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 15, 2013)

What has been said is true. I had some good email exchanges with Hans Zimmer, I was probably lucky to catch him on a break following our clash here, but he was very generous with his time, and it made me realize I was going about it the wrong way. And I'm not sure it's a path I want to take, since I enjoy concert music as well, but if I do, it won't be with just sending a demo reel. That will get you some praise, but no work. Yes, networking and meeting all kind of people in the business. Took me a while to understand this, but better late than never.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 15, 2013)

Yup yup - I never think of my showreel or anything online as recruiting for work. All it is is a place where if people need to hear something for reference, they can.

The whole business is relationships. Christof - is there an Austrian TV and / or film scene? I've watched a lot of Scandanavian film and TV lately and its a reminder to me that Hollywood is far from the be all and end all for composers in the rest of the world. (Incidentally, the guy who scores The Dragon Tattoo trilogy is clearly a big fan of Omnisphere... and nothing wrong with that I say). TV in particular can be more reliable than film, where one job leads to the next. I'm sure it won't be easy to break in, but at least you have geography in your favour.


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## Kralc (Jan 16, 2013)

So I have to go out and meet.....people.

But seriously, where do directors/producers hang out? Do I just go everywhere and ask people if they're directors?


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## Markus S (Jan 16, 2013)

In all of these topics, it's always : you have to go out, meet people in person, be there etc. Well, I for one cannot confirm this. Having been out there, meeting the right people does in no way guarantee you any new work relation. It guarantees you probably to have a nice time, meet interesting personalities, have passionate discussions, but work? No. At least in these times. It might work, on a few exceptions, but so does anything else.

So what can we do? How do we composers find work? Well, I have no clue.


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## cozzabucks (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm finding this discussion fascinating, especially as I'm realising that I know nothing (practically) about how to network! I have some knowledge of music theory, a bit less on putting together a sampled orchestra, but really I know nothing about who to send stuff to, who to talk to, who to approach etc.

I've been incredibly lucky in that my first job application (for music in theatre) has kept me busy for the last 20 years - either working with the same people or their assistants etc But they've always contacted me, not the other way about. And now I'm trying to get into film and broadcast media -it's like starting all over again! I've done quite a handful of unpaid/student shorts, but I too have no clue how to get any further! 

Christof your music sounds fantastic and I wish you all the very best with it. I'm sure people who have already replied saying you should have a shorter reel are right, but I'm enjoying listening to it all. Meanwhile if anyone knows what kind of people to approach and how to find them, I suspect there may be quite a few grateful people around here! In fact i may even post the same question on shooting people - will report back if I get anything interesting!


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## Christof (Jan 16, 2013)

I agree with all of you regarding my demo reel, I will make it much shorter.
And I also know that it is not a door opener for potential work, but it is like an acoustic VCard.
Guy, how did you manage to talk to Hans Zimmer even on the phone?(I am NOT asking you to give me his number 
I was silly enough to send him a PM here on vi-control, just to gain his attention.Also a kind of networking 
Anyway, as I said before, it is extremely hard to break into good business from good old Vienna/Austria.So maybe I should stop complaining and better try to get my ass up and try whatever is possible.
Move to L.A.?Not yet (family).


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 16, 2013)

Markus S @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> In all of these topics, it's always : you have to go out, meet people in person, be there etc. Well, I for one cannot confirm this. Having been out there, meeting the right people does in no way guarantee you any new work relation. It guarantees you probably to have a nice time, meet interesting personalities, have passionate discussions, but work? No. At least in these times. It might work, on a few exceptions, but so does anything else.
> 
> So what can we do? How do we composers find work? Well, I have no clue.



It's a good question. And Chrstof, forgive a slight broadening of the thread, hopefully it is relevant.

I went to a networking evening in Manchester a year or so ago. It was organised at MediaCityUK, the new home of much of the BBC, including Childrens - the department that employed me. ITV are now also there. In short - its the place to be. A network evening was organised for composers and figured this was very important for me to be there. I booked trains and hotels, rung after the registration deadline had passed and talked my way in. Phew!

I'm not sure at what point in the evening it was when I realised I'd made a terrible mistake. Maybe it was third person I spoke to who was an accountant outside the industry, and appeared to have little interest in music, let alone compose any. Eventually I realised that I stumbled into a new scene of which I was previously unaware - the serial networker. These people just jumped straight from one networking event to the next, regardless of the field. All the did was hand out irrelevant business cards. Not a single producer, production co-ordinator or executive was there and as far as I could tell, I was the most qualified person in the room - a truly terrifying thought. I had to explain to the organiser how the PRS worked. If it had a function at all, it was as a singles club.

Fortunately, the entire experience was not a complete write off. I'd arranged meetings earlier in the day through contacts with various other people in the BBC. Most came to nothing, but it had put some faces to names, and in the fullness of time it was helpful. Best of all was just being in the building and bumping into people I knew, several conversations started that day that DID lead somewhere.

So there's the problem. I'm hugely sceptical of networking events, and of the whole notion of meeting people you don't know to pitch your services. This will be equally true of Vienna as London as LA. The key is to get yourself in a position where you are more naturally alongside these people, and obviously that's not easy.

I think it starts with research. Find out a whole range the output of what you're interested in. Look for the smallest. Look at radio, look at the least well funded. Alternatively, get into the independent film scene. Seek out the good ones and forge relationships... as their careers advance, that will be extremely useful.

Just my $0.02. I realise I'm in a lucky position as I already had good professional relationships in place before people knew me as a composer and slowly I got opportunities to help out, which led on to other things. Everyone's path will be different. But truly relationships are key, at all levels in the industry.


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## Markus S (Jan 16, 2013)

Well, what I am trying to say is : you can do it all right, and still got no job, or you can do it all wrong and get a job. It seems more and more like total random to me, pure luck.


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## Christof (Jan 16, 2013)

well, like in any job!


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## germancomponist (Jan 16, 2013)

... and not to forget is the nepotism. It is there much more often than you thought. 

I could tell stories.... .


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 16, 2013)

Christof @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> I agree with all of you regarding my demo reel, I will make it much shorter.
> And I also know that it is not a door opener for potential work, but it is like an acoustic VCard.
> Guy, how did you manage to talk to Hans Zimmer even on the phone?(I am NOT asking you to give me his number
> I was silly enough to send him a PM here on vi-control, just to gain his attention.Also a kind of networking
> ...



Sorry I corrected my post, some bad english, rather good email exchanges we had. But that was more under special circumstances, he must be flooded with emails. I wasn't encouraging you to email him, which I don't think is the way to go about it anyway, but just share what I understood about this business.


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## Christof (Jan 16, 2013)

I know that you didn't encourage me to email him, and I know that this is not the only or best way!
Thanks anyway!


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 16, 2013)

BTW, I loved your showreel!


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## Christof (Jan 16, 2013)

You had the time to go through it???


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## Guy Bacos (Jan 16, 2013)

I listened to about 10 minutes or so a few days ago and wanted to listen more but didn't get around to it yet.


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## Christof (Jan 17, 2013)

Haha, that really means that I have to cut it down to 4 minutes!


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## Mariatchy (Feb 12, 2013)

I find that it's extremely time consuming to look for the next project. I have found that LinkedIn has been useful to connect to directors and producers, every time I connect to someone new I send them a message with links to my music and 70% of people write back. I've got mixed emotions about Networking events, it takes a lot of effort and research to find the people you would ideally want to talk to and work with. There are also time wasters who pretend they are someone they're not, promising things with no or little substance which is always dissapointing. The most immidiate offers are often from people who want music for free. Generally, the work I have received have been through friends and connections and I can really count myself lucky. 

In quieter times I like doing research and try out new styles of music, improve my skills. I really enjoy pressure free days. 

I very much enjoyed your showreel and hope you'll find your next project soon.


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## cadalac (Feb 13, 2013)

Has the market picked up any since the new year? I will be looking for my first projects soon, and this thread really isn't encouraging.


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## Ed (Feb 13, 2013)

Your work is great, why dont you work on a library? Thats something you can do all by yourself.


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## midphase (Feb 13, 2013)

Most libraries don't pay anything up front anymore. What that means is producing a good number of tracks, then contacting libraries hoping that they will take a listen, then once they do and like them waiting for them to license them and then waiting some more to get any sort of money from it.

Most of the $$$ that I make from libraries are from tracks that I produced at least 5 years ago or even earlier...same goes for films which can take several years before they come out on TV and cable.

In the here and now there's not a whole lot going on...

...meanwhile yet another director is asking me to score his short film for free -- ugh!


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## RiffWraith (Feb 13, 2013)

cadalac @ Thu Feb 14 said:


> Has the market picked up any since the new year? I will be looking for my first projects soon, and this thread really isn't encouraging.



The market doesn't fluctuate. It doesn't pick up and stagnate. There is always demand. Films, TV shows, commercials, trailers - they always get made. It's budgets that shrink; not content output.

In terms of "the market" for composers....if you are established, and have a client base, and contacts that may lead to regular work, the market is good. If you don't have any of those things, then the market is not good.

Cheers.


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## midphase (Feb 14, 2013)

I think what he means by the "market" is simply if money has come back to indie films (relatively speaking).

In my experience that would be a big fat no...quite the opposite, made-for-TV movies (like SyFy, Lifetime, etc) have seen their budgets shrink even more.

Yes, there is always demand for films and TV shows, but the supply is too much and distributors have no incentive to pay out the type of advances that they used to when so many filmmakers are more than happy to throw their films at them for little to no money.

Of course it all trickles down...so composers are feeling the pinch in an even more exponential way (so is everyone else).

Some guys are lucky that they have been able to weather the storm fairly well, or are isolated enough from the front lines to not feel the effects quite yet. But even they should have a pretty good idea that their situation isn't likely to continue for much longer.

Big exception are of course the top names who seem to have seen their fees get even higher as of late. 

BTW, we're not the only ones who are crying in our drinks. The VFX industry seems to be in bad shape as well, Digital Domain was in bankruptcy proceedings and it would appear that Rhythm and Hues is not too far behind:

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/rhythm-hues-staff-meeting-blunt-talk-layoffs-foreign-010908500.html (http://movies.yahoo.com/news/rhythm-hue ... 08500.html)


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## Markus S (Feb 14, 2013)

Good post, midphase. The market dropped, I can see this everywhere around me. My clients (mainly middle sized game development studios) are people who work hard for their passion, they have to chase financing wherever they can get it to assure a living for their team. It got so hard that many of them had to shut down their business today, even though they were looking for alternatives markets and business models. I am not talking about newcomers, new studios that give it a shot, but about studios who have been here for 25 years and market leader in their niche. Many of them have been working for big publishers and brands. With my clients going down, next to them I see my potential clients going down. And publishers (clients of my clients) shutting down above them. 

There is of course a total over supply of composers (the other day I was on an indie game forum, looking into the "cooperation sub forum", the first 5 posts were composers offering their services, I checked again to make sure this wasn't a dedicated audio sub forum - wtf), but the budgets also dropped heavily. These are risky times and investors seem to be very cautious in investing in such an uncertain enterprise as the entertainment market, that is submitted to a certain "random factor". I saw game budgets dropping to 25% in the sequel more than once, and this is the lucky case of a sequel.

There is still a market and I am sure you can still survive doing music somehow, but it changed - and it continues to change very fast indeed - so you better not miss that train connection..


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## Brian Ralston (Feb 14, 2013)

What dropped out...was the middle ground. There is still a similar amount of work at the top "studio" level for guys who are in the 1%. But the middle ground features and made for TV films...and other medium sized budgeted stuff is mostly gone in favor of the branded tent-pole blockbuster. Hence the bottom end of the no budget, micro-budget web series or film with no money is there everywhere you look. Sitting next to the $100Million dollar comic book film. 

It use to be true that a production company or studio would make 10 films...some risky...some less so...and hedge their bets that they would probably only turn a profit on one or two. But that profit would be big enough worldwide to cover all 10 attempts. Now...the studios and even independent production companies are a lot more gun shy. 

They don't want to lose money on even those other eight films. So how do they do this? They invest in ONLY the projects that are a SURE THING. Well...how is anything a sure thing? It is not. But then that makes their choices of what to greenlight even stricter. They are pretty much ONLY now doing the scripts and projects that already have a built in brand. A built in following of a mass of people who are guaranteed eyeballs. Already 99.9% a sure thing. And is is working for them. Box Office profits are breaking records through the roof on films. 

Gone are the days where spec scripts of original material are bid on by the studios in a rush to find the next hottest project. (Every now and then one happens and makes news...but very rarely). They know what the project to develop next is because it is a property being developed on top of another already successful property. Comics of any sort.....like Avengers, Iron Man, board games like Battleship...and Candyland (Yes...I said Candyland)...GI Joe....Twilight....Harry Potter.....etc.....etc.....

This is a long but very worth while read about how the industry has changed. Read it. Learn from it. Determine where you fit in....or don't. And whether this biz is still for you or not.
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2013/03/will-spec-script-screenwriters-rise-again

Combined with the fact that there is a flood of guys wanting to be a composer...and trying to be a composer...most of which do not have the experience or proven track record to work on any of these multi-million dollar branded picture properties....leads to a lot of folks feeling like the work is drying up.


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## justinmelland (Feb 14, 2013)

It is surprising how many people are willing to starve, just so they can be composers. It's a great gig and all that, but is it worth starving for? After all is said and done, even at the highest levels, most of your time is spent alone, writing in a room full of machines. Is this the best job in the world or something? I know I love doing it, but I'm just surprised at how many people WANT to do it.


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## midphase (Feb 14, 2013)

I think being a creative artist is great...in the sense that when you set out to create something in a completely unencumbered manner it feels great. Further I think that if you're able to make a living doing so, then it can be considered a "great gig."

However, being a director or producer's little bitch is NOT a great gig by any stretch of the imagination. Doing yet another Inception or Batman ripoff because the director has no imagination is NOT a great gig....especially when the pay is sub-standard (and it is in the majority of cases).

Being a low-paid creative vs. having a more conventional job requires compromises, very high compromises. Some of these compromises might be worth it, some might simply be too much to bear.


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## Rctec (Feb 14, 2013)

I listened to most of your reel. I really enjoyed it! I think the orchestral stuff is really gorgeous. So, you can tell them that HZ would recommend you for any score...unless, of course, you are socially a complete prat!  name-dropping can work wonders in the provinces  !
Best,
-Hz-


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## FriFlo (Feb 14, 2013)

Well, NOW you did network! C'mon, Hans. Give him a job ... and me too, while your at it!


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## schatzus (Feb 14, 2013)

From no job to an endorsement from Hans Zimmer!
Why didn't I think of that? 
Touche' Christof... touche'.


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## Daniel James (Feb 14, 2013)

Haha now you have no excuses, endorsements like that don't happen everyday! 

*note to self write better music and/or learn to make better coffee* XD

-DJ


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## impressions (Feb 14, 2013)

here are part of the reasons...

http://fiverr.com/categories/music-audio

http://www.seoclerks.com/categories/Audio-Music

its like they're saying-kill me for 5$.. sorry, kill me and everyone else in the biz.. (o)


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## Valérie_D (Feb 14, 2013)

Christof, I sat through your reel and it sounds fantastic, I really wish you the best!

Thank you all for sharing your experience. The way I could find work so far has been that I was lucky enough to have people call me after hearing my music in concerts or seeing some students films I scored in festivals, it really was a question of timing.

I am sharing a little bit of music here, for your appreciation.

https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/alice

https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/la-cite-de-verre

https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/ ... es-of-blue


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## Christof (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks for the uplifting words Rctec, nevertheless I know that I probably won't find any composing jobs on this forum.
Too funny that I sent a demo CD some years ago to RC productions combined with a letter to HZ (I guess it went to trash without opening amongst thousands others) and here and now I didn't even ask him to listen to my reel

Anyway, there are some very good vibes on this forum, encouraging and interesting.

Christof


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## fkoenig (Feb 15, 2013)

Hi Christof,
loved your music, it´s very well done and stylistically extremely versatile - though I confess I liked the "romantic" parts best. And you must be kind of an orchestral mixing genius... It´s VSL? Should be, since you are from Vienna :wink: .
Recently I had the chance to listen to an industry discussion event with some guys from the upper end of HBO, and they had some interesting points to make. It´s quality and commitment they´re after (so they said) and they can afford it, because TV offers more chances to sell and is less expensive in producing. So maybe there´s still hope?
I admit that I´m quite happy with being a part-time-composer with a decent day job to pay the rent, but - in my humble opinion - you should keep on trying...
Best luck

FKoenig


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## Christof (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks fkoenig!
Romantic orchestral is my favourite style, I am a quite melancholic person
I have almost everything from VSL (I am also one of the cello players from the recorded samples), but honestly I mix different libraries together, Hollywood Strings, VSL, LASS, Cinebrass, Albion etc...everything that sounds good, there is no rule.
I am also an orchestral player so I got used to the sound of an orchestra.
I keep on trying for sure!
Christof


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## Markus S (Feb 15, 2013)




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## ScoringFilm (Feb 15, 2013)

Valérie_D @ Thu Feb 14 said:


> I am sharing a little bit of music here, for your appreciation.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/alice
> https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/la-cite-de-verre
> https://soundcloud.com/val-rie-delaney/ ... es-of-blue



@Valérie_D - Nicely done with the SFX/sound design, however I personally would not describe this as music.

@Christof - I have always admired your work and the slower orchestral compositions stand out as your strongest work (especially those with your cello playing). Good Luck with finding work.

Justin


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## Rob (Feb 15, 2013)

Christof @ 12th January 2013 said:


> Dear friends and fellow composers, at the moment I have absolutely NO gigs, even my concert life as cello player is paused due to finical problems in the classical concert world, I have some movie projects in the pipeline, some are very promising and exciting, but at the moment I have nothing to do except writing and doing self training.
> 
> I don't know if any producers, agents or directors are around in this forum, but I will share my showreel for any case.
> 
> ...



I would suggest you just relax and enjoy your time, writing and self training as you say, because such skill and musicianship as you show will surely bring you some good gigs... this hoping you aren't in trouble paying everyday's life bills that is...


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## Christof (Feb 15, 2013)

> Nicely done with the SFX/sound design, however I personally would not describe this as music (in the literal sense of a film composer).



Yes, not music in the sense of tonal music or film music, but it is music, enough questions to discuss in a dedicated thread.


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## dgburns (Feb 15, 2013)

Daniel James @ Thu Feb 14 said:


> Haha now you have no excuses, endorsements like that don't happen everyday!
> 
> *note to self write better music and/or learn to make better coffee* XD
> 
> -DJ



you got the music part down Daniel!I really like your youtube vids as well.

@ Brian R,I second what you say.

@Christof,chin up my friend.As we say in my neck o' the woods,opportunity
always seems to come from where you least expect it,and usually not from where you thought it would.


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## Valérie_D (Feb 15, 2013)

Not starting a new thread but I think sounds can be very musical and I compose with musical and visual intentions in mind, funny because I had comments from people who are really traditional about electroacoustic music and for them, my music was too tonal, too listener friendly because I included instruments in it. I don't know, I just let my imagination go and don't believe in limits and labels.


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## Christof (Feb 16, 2013)

> Well, NOW you did network! C'mon, Hans. Give him a job ... and me too, while your at it!



Just because he likes my stuff doesn't mean he could give me a job 
But such a comment is a motivation for sure!


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## Jimbo 88 (Feb 16, 2013)

Hey Christof, i think the best thing to do in your situation is work on getting in a music library in between knocking on doors.

See if you can get residuals building up.


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## Ed (Feb 16, 2013)

ScoringFilm @ Fri Feb 15 said:


> @Valérie_D - Nicely done with the SFX/sound design, however I personally would not describe this as music.



Certainly blurs the line, more in some than others, but there's definite music here. I really like La cité de verre, very cool.


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## Valérie_D (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks!


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## Christof (Mar 1, 2013)

Do you guys think that it would be easier to break in when you live and work in L.A?
Some told me yes, some no.


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## Waywyn (Mar 1, 2013)

Christof @ Fri Mar 01 said:


> Do you guys think that it would be easier to break in when you live and work in L.A?
> Some told me yes, some no.



Hey Christof,

I can't speak for living/working in L.A. and getting jobs over there since I still live in Hamburg, Germany ... (therefore I can speak for not living there but getting jobs from over there :D)

Obviously, as much as I would love to see lots of people from LA (and all the other beautiful places on this planet) on a frequent basis (which I never had so far but have contact with very often) I don't really miss living over there. Surely, I would get involved in much more projects and - I hope I do not sound wrong - but I am happy as it is ... and if there would be some huge thing coming up I wouldn't have a problem to go over for a few weeks. I would do that within a second if there would be a major chance. However, I think since all composers more or less hang out on the internet, I took my chance and found it important to be present there. I also found that you can get noticed by people by just doing things which are not really related to looking for work or get involved in a project. I mean, just as an example, I am not sure how many requests I got to give some lessons in e.g. Cubase only because of my little tutorials. Eventually you meet someone asking you to help in the studio because of a walkthrough of an orchestral template etc. ... I think it is important to simply give without seeing a direct return. I am not talking of the usual "work for free" to expect a producer getting you involved on a huge project ... I mean just to be present and show what you can do.

To be honest I know what I am able of, but I damn know what I am NOT able to and what lackings I have ... but I just wanted to say, that doing - sometimes crazy - things pays out to get noticed from the working/hiring guys.

I have to agree with Jumbo 88, I think it is essential to get involved in a music library. Besides that you are a great cello player. A few thoughts pop up in my brain:
Disregarding the typical YT discussions, did you ever consider doing cello lessons and monetize your videos - maybe doing it an unusual way? I am not talking about doing it in a green wool mask and LEDS on your bow (MUIAHHAHAHA) but you know what I mean. To grab the audience? Did you ever consider create a kickass cello solo library which just blows off everyone socks? Maybe going an fx/ethereal approach? There are so many ways and sooner or later jobs may keep rolling towards you.

Anyway, enough bla ... I am not really sure if this helped or inspired you a bit but I just couldn't leave ignoring your post, since I know the situation too well of not being able to pay the rent!!


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## Christof (Mar 1, 2013)

Thanks Alex, actually I am involved in music libraries, Jeff Rona's Liquid Cinema and istockphoto.
I am not a good cello teacher.
A cello library, good idea, but I think I don't have the technical knowhow to build up a library, I am just good enough to set up a nice Kontakt template 
I am good at playing and composing, and that's what i want to do.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Mar 1, 2013)

Christof @ Fri Mar 01 said:


> Do you guys think that it would be easier to break in when you live and work in L.A?
> Some told me yes, some no.



I can't really answer that question for you, but if I would live in Vienna, I would feel like being in the center of Western musical culture, and I probably wouldn't consider moving to any other place. Are you really considering moving to the USA? If so, aren't you afraid it will be difficult to apply for a green card, given the fact that you are currently looking for work?

I myself am living in The Netherlands, and I must say that I'm really happy with the location of my studio, which is only a 30 minute drive from Galaxy Studios in Belgium (where I recorded my first projects). To me, Galaxy Studios is a perfect example of the fact that as long as the quality of your work is outstanding, you will always have great projects come your way.

Although Galaxy Studios is located in a rather unassuming rural area of the Belgian countryside, this is actually one of the most successful music and film post production studios in the world. They are still expanding their studio complex, despite the economical crisis, and they are well-known for their pioneering work on new technologies and audio formats, like the new Auro-3D format, which was basically developed there. They collaborate with lots of big studios in the USA like Lucas Art/Film, they always have state-of-the-art equipment (like their custom-built 8k filmscanner made out of marble!), their studio is still the most quiet studio in the world, and their studio orchestra is truly amazing! I have learned a lot from them, especially the fact that you don't need to live in LA to be successful in the international film and music industry.

I don't know if this is relevant, but I remember that Thomas Bergersen once said that he didn't consider moving to the US, even when he was already starting to become very successful. Of course, he eventually did move to the US, but he managed to establish his name while still living in Northern Europe. I guess that if you're really good, people will always find you, wherever you live.

Don't let your current situation discourage you!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## presetfreund (Mar 1, 2013)

@ Christof: Very good music, really enjoying listening to it! Dont really know whether the fact that a composer featuring skills like yours has job finding problems (!) is rather critical (regarding business opportunities) or rather comforting (for all those who know the situation). At the end of the day its always the skills and quality that carries through. Thats what I think.

Recently, I also was intensely thinking about how to get work as composer (or audio director for industrials what I also do sometimes). 

When I recall the last years:

1. 70% of my jobs and sales is from the so-called cold calling that is phoning interesting companies and try to get the right person (acquisitions, human ressources, inhouse audio guy,...) on the phone or his/her email adress. I am not telling them long stories but try to have someone listen to my music. Funnily enough this seems to work better when I am doing the calls myself instead of paying someone else for doing those calls. In my experience there is no need for follow-up call - they return the call (or email) in case they liked what they hear. If not then they dont.
2. 30% of my jobs and sales is from people who contact me because they visited my website, or from recent work we did together. Btw, a proper website of one´s own (not myspace nor soundcloud nor Facebook [Barf!] whatsoever), a proper one as you have is a must IMO.
3. 0% of my jobs and sales is from being present at any networking events, parties, fairs, conventions and the like. But that´s only my personal experience.

@ Alex: it is encouraging to hear you mentioning having been familiar once with not knowing how to pay the rent.
Well, paying the rent has never been a problem for me ... but surely there sometimes was no money left for food and the power supply company 

Cheers


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## Christof (Mar 1, 2013)

Okay, maybe I should change the thread title to 'not enough jobs so far'.I don't want to be the big complainer here who isn't able to find jobs, in fact I have jobs, but it seems that they are not good enough for what I think I am able do, this may be pure arrogance or self-esteem.I have to stay humble and offensive at the same time.Sorry for my bad english, but I think you know what I mean.


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## Peter Alexander (Mar 1, 2013)

Kralc @ Wed Jan 16 said:


> So I have to go out and meet.....people.
> 
> But seriously, where do directors/producers hang out? Do I just go everywhere and ask people if they're directors?



A great place in LA to get started, or at least was, is UCLA School of Extension. Here you can network with budding producer/directors. 

Second is to shop schools with film programs and offer to score a student film.

Third is to produce something all your own.


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## mwarsell (Mar 2, 2013)

@Christof

"Luxury!"

(reference to a Monty Python -sketch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

)

I don't know what your complaining about - your music sounds fantastic, you have won multiple awards, are working on a library with Jeff Rona, have endorsements from Peter Gabriel and Hans Zimmer.

I have played the piano and composed since I was 8. I'm now 37. I have never had a paying job. Oh wait, I did play and perform a wedding march for organ at my sister's wedding..but no...that didn't pay either.

I have completed a Music for the Media -diploma course on top of my earlier studies in music theory, history, piano, composition, orchestration and production.

I have scored one student film - it had one viewing, I never got a copy. I got this, and only this, contact after contacting a local film school here in Helsinki. No pay. I have scored one short film by a British amateur director, who got my details off a forum where I advertised "composer available". No pay. I have scored one theatrical production. No pay. I MIGHT have two tiny jobs in the pipeline by a fledgling American director - no pay.

As a matter of fact, I don't even expect to be paid anymore. I'd love to work on a meaningful project for free. I have begun to create/borrow/mix/cut/paste videos for my own music just to be able to attach some moving images to it since jobs are so scarce. Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLqj1xM7NpI


Here's my reel from 2012

https://soundcloud.com/auralnight/showreel-2012

and here something a bit more orchestral since the reel is quite electronic

https://soundcloud.com/auralnight/doom- ... a-surprise

I don't mean to hijack the thread, I just want to tell you Christof that things could be much worse for you.


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## mwarsell (Mar 2, 2013)

@Christof OMG @ your passacaglia! This is mesmerizing!


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## Christof (Mar 2, 2013)

> I don't know what your complaining about - your music sounds fantastic, you have won multiple awards, are working on a library with Jeff Rona, have endorsements from Peter Gabriel and Hans Zimmer.


Well, you know, these awards are fine, but they don't make me a better composer.The collaboration with Jeff is great, but it doesn't affect my career.
The so called endorsements by PG and HZ are motivating and uplifting, but Peter won't call me to play Cello on his next album, Hans won't call me to write additional music for his next blockbuster, he has people who do that perfectly.
These things are positive, nice moments that encourage me, but they don't mean potential work and they don't make my music better.
They are good for reputation or for gaining someones attention, but at the end I am the one who decides where my 'career' should go, and maybe I should change my attitude.


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## mwarsell (Mar 2, 2013)

I don't have a "career" either, I write music whenever I have time from teaching and tending to my kids.

But...it's still one of the greatest things in the world - to be able to create something unique which did not exist in the world (hopefully  before.


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## Peter Alexander (Mar 3, 2013)

> The so called endorsements by PG and HZ are motivating and uplifting, but Peter won't call me to play Cello on his next album, Hans won't call me to write additional music for his next blockbuster, he has people who do that perfectly.
> These things are positive, nice moments that encourage me, but they don't mean potential work and they don't make my music better.



You're missing it because you're talking yourself out of winning. You're focusing on what's not happening rather than what is. You build your career from the what-is.

Hans just did a 5 week mini-series with Mark Burnett. Mark Burnett is an ex-British para who came to the U.S., and whose first job was being - a NANNY! His second job was being - a NANNY out of which he was offered work in an insurance company. So one weekend he's selling t-shirts at Venice Beach for $18 per and figured out he was making more money selling t-shirts then working in an insurance office. So he quit! Before long, one door that opened lead to another and eventually he got into TV production and one of his big shows is Survivor. 

I've never met Mark Burnett. But if I could ask him one question, it would be this, "So while you were standing there selling t-shirts at Venice Beach were you complaining to God that IF you had stayed in the Paras you could have been a bloody Captain or Major, and IF you had stayed in the UK... and IF you had never come to the bloody colonies in the first bloody place and IF....and IF.... and IF...?"

Instead, I'd bet he say, "Well IF I hadn't come to America I wouldn't have been a nanny, I never would have come to California, and I wouldn't have worked in insurance, and I would never have found out my entrepreneurial skill for selling with t-shirts at Venice Beach, and I never would have gotten into TV production, and I'd never have married that beautiful TV angel Roma Downey." 

Your choice is to choose how IF will work for you. 

IF you hadn't played cello, IF you hadn't done the work on the Silent Stage, IF you had never started composing, IF you hadn't started doing work with Jeff Rona, IF Hans Zimmer had never publicly endorsed your composing skills, IF Peter Gabriel had never endorsed your composing skills, IF...

Success builds by going confidently through one door at a time. And you have LOTS to be confident about, thankful for, and grateful for.

As they say in American sports, Big Mo(tivation) is working for you. Keep going!


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## Markus S (Mar 3, 2013)

Christof @ Sat Mar 02 said:


> > I don't know what your complaining about - your music sounds fantastic, you have won multiple awards, are working on a library with Jeff Rona, have endorsements from Peter Gabriel and Hans Zimmer.
> 
> 
> Well, you know, these awards are fine, but they don't make me a better composer.The collaboration with Jeff is great, but it doesn't affect my career.
> ...



Well, I for one, do not like your music. It does sound generic to me, and I am getting bored of this type of music, that is eternally the same to my ears.

This said, do you like your own music? Do you really enjoy listening to it, playing and writing it? Or are you looking to please while writing what you think people expect and enjoy? I will be so bold to say that it is by FAR more important what you think yourself of your own music than what anyone else, including Peter Gabriel or Hans Zimmer thinks of it.

If you are confident with your music, you are not running around trying to be a better composer. Better compared to what or who? There is no one around with your history or your situation. The world does not owe you to make a living with music, and you do not owe your music to the world. You do not own the world a certain type of career either. I believe being yourself and working your own way in the world is something that will lead to ultimately to success, but maybe you have to rethink what you really want and what success is for you. If you compare yourself to others and if your definition of success is to write additional music for HZ, then yes, you will probably fail.

Now there is NO, absolutely no connection between making money with music and writing "good" music. One more reason not to focus too much on what you should do better with your music composition. And you are right : No endorsement, no reference will bring money to the table, only sales (of music or services) will.


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## Robin (Mar 3, 2013)

Wow, Markus, that was a little uncalled for, wasn't it? A little bit more differentiation on sentences like "I don't like that" would probably help to bring across your point  Don't really see the point in such a generalized bashing of someone's work.

By the way, I strongly disagree with your point. Comparing yourself with someone who's better than yourself at something is probably one of the strongest ways of human learning. In my opinion saying something like "I just do my shit, not comparing myself to anybody else" is first of all arrogant and second of all stalling your personal development.

Somebody did better at certain things than you did? Then find out why and find out how you can personally adjust your way of handling things to become as successful as long as it is in your power.

Comparison is in my opinion vital to becoming better at what you do. The essential thing is to not get frustrated but motivated by the comparison. And that has nothing to do with compromising your own personality.

That said, unfortunately talent and knowledge is not something that will neccessarily result in success in the business.

Robin


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## Christof (Mar 3, 2013)

> Well, I for one, do not like your music. It does sound generic to me, and I am getting bored of this type of music, that is eternally the same to my ears.


Yes, I like my own music,I enjoy listening to most of my pieces, I love what I do. I started composing in 2006 and I am quite proud of my results because I didn't study composition or orchestration, maybe my music would sound less generic and eternally the same if I would have studied it


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 3, 2013)

Robin @ Sun Mar 03 said:


> Wow, Markus, that was a little uncalled for, wasn't it? A little bit more differentiation on sentences like "I don't like that" would probably help to bring across your point  Don't really see the point in such a generalized bashing of someone's work.
> 
> By the way, I strongly disagree with your point. Comparing yourself with someone who's better than yourself at something is probably one of the strongest ways of human learning. In my opinion saying something like "I just do my shit, not comparing myself to anybody else" is first of all arrogant and second of all stalling your personal development.
> 
> ...



Well stated, Robin.


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## Christof (Mar 3, 2013)

> I can't really answer that question for you, but if I would live in Vienna, I would feel like being in the center of Western musical culture, and I probably wouldn't consider moving to any other place.


Good point Jerome!
After studying cello in Paris I moved to Vienna because there are enough job opportunities for classical musicians and I found enough jobs as cellist here.
But the film industry in Austria is almost not existent, so it is very hard to work as a film/media composer here.I am not really considering moving to LA, I have my family here.As I said before, some people told me that you must live in LA, some told me that you can work remotely from anywhere in the world, I think I have to find out myself


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 3, 2013)

I wouldn't mind living in Vienna. :wink:


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## Daniel James (Mar 3, 2013)

Christof @ Sat Mar 02 said:


> > I don't know what your complaining about - your music sounds fantastic, you have won multiple awards, are working on a library with Jeff Rona, have endorsements from Peter Gabriel and Hans Zimmer.
> 
> 
> Well, you know, these awards are fine, but they don't make me a better composer.The collaboration with Jeff is great, but it doesn't affect my career.
> ...



Hey mate,

To me it sounds like you are waiting for the work to come to you.... that very rarely happens unless you have something nobody else has, and everyone knows about it.
If you want that work you have to get out there and start pushing, you have been given some incredible advantages that many of the composers here would kill for, in the shape of recommendations from PG and HZ. You would be a fool to let that go to waste.

Like I say, the work wont come to you, there are already to many talented people knocking on doors and making friends while you are sitting back waiting. To a certain degree here it doesnt matter how you view your music, or if you think you are good enough, you have testimonials that say you can do the work....it almost baffles me you havn't yet pushed that button to your advantage (which was the exact reason they were given to you)

In the nicest possible way its time to stop doubting yourself, get off your ass and start looking for work. Directors like people with a bit of drive and determination, no one wants to hire the guy who has done nothing for months because he sat waiting for it to happen. 

“If it’s important you’ll find a way. If it’s not, you’ll find an excuse.” – Ryan Blair

-DJ


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## Christof (Mar 3, 2013)

> To me it sounds like you are waiting for the work to come to you.... that very rarely happens unless you have something nobody else has, and everyone knows about it.


Thanks Daniel for your feedback!
Actually I am not waiting for the work to come to me, I am knocking on doors, I am calling/meeting producers/directors, I am promoting my work online.I even walked into the office of a producer with my laptop and my showreel and told him that I am the one he needs for his next project, he gave me the job, after that I was happy but I felt like an arrogant boaster 
Maybe I am just a bit too humble sometimes.
Doubting myself motivates me to write a better piece than yesterday (and I try to write every day).


> If you want that work you have to get out there and start pushing, you have been given some incredible advantages that many of the composers here would kill for, in the shape of recommendations from PG and HZ. You would be a fool to let that go to waste.


I may be very naive because I am very young as composer (not as a human) but do you really think these recommendations could help to get a gig easier than without them?This is a honest question, not ironic.
I mean if I tell someone here in Austria that Hans Zimmer recommends me for any score they simply wouldn't believe me or call me a dreamer.But this is the austrian mentality.
Anyway, this discussion is very interesting but it shouldn't turn into my private psychotherapy session 
I will get my ass up even more, thanks Daniel!


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## Jimbo 88 (Mar 3, 2013)

Just to add to the discussion and what Daniel James has said....

I have a son who is at USC not majoring in Music, but in other areas related to film production. I always thought that it was a shame, because my son is a very, very gifted musician.

I was speaking to a working composer saying "too bad my son is not going to be a film composer".

His reply was essentially that my son has a much greater chance of being a composer than I give him hope for because he is in the middle of the "action". 

So you got to keep that in mind when looking for work. 

Another thing, the lull in your work load might be a natural event considering the number of composers and the number of paying jobs in the marketplace.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 3, 2013)

I doubt very much saying to anybody you've been recommended by Hans Zimmer and PG will do anything in terms of actually getting work. Better not hold your breath on that one, and I think you already know that. It's good to impress friends, but that's usually where it ends. Also, anybody could make this up. I had a friend who made up endless credits on his website, don't think it did anything. BTW, he's not my friend anymore.  I'm sure when you actually worked with people like HZ, then you get a chance to sneak in the film industry and recommendations become more significant. However, it's still nice to get that pat on the back by people like them.


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## Daniel James (Mar 3, 2013)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Mar 03 said:


> I doubt very much saying to anybody you've been recommended by Hans Zimmer and PG will do anything in terms of actually getting work. Better not hold your breath on that one, and I think you already know that. It's good to impress friends, but that's usually where it ends. Also, anybody could make this up. I had a friend who made up endless credits on his website, don't think it did anything. BTW, he's not my friend anymore.  I'm sure when you actually worked with people like HZ, then you get a chance to sneak in the film industry and recommendations become more significant. However, it's still nice to get that pat on the back by people like them.



I disagree slightly with what you went with here Guy. I think having the recommendation of someone with as much credibility and recognition as Hans would be invaluable. I'm not saying its a 'stroll into any gig you want card' but it gives you a bit more legitimacy if you have a director who has to choose between unknowns. He could be sitting there looking at two composers, neither of which he knows...he likes the music of both, but one has a testimonial from Hans Zimmer, the other from an unknown director saying he was fun to work with, which one do you think will get the gig.

Anything that separates you from other composers, even a testimonial can help you gain an advantage if it helps you sell your product (you as a composer) to someone. For all you know the director could love a film Hans worked on and if HE says you can compose then you must be worth a try.

I also don't think the guys working over at Han's studio are 'sneaking' into the industry. In fact I imagine many of them are actively applying to be in that industry, as that's what Hans kinda does alot of...If I apply to work at a bank I am not 'sneaking' into the banking industry, I'm just starting on a lower rung while I learn the ropes, it takes a few years to be the bank manager. 

-DJ


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 3, 2013)

I hope you're right James, in my case, references nor my Master degree never did anything for the work I got. What I'm basically saying is, don't count on that.  

When I said "sneak in", it didn't mean that you would be the coffee boy and 2 months later work on the next blockbuster. It was a figure of speech. I find that a bit bizarre to have the need to explain this, but I guess I have to.


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## Christof (Mar 3, 2013)

Better to be the coffe boy and 2 months later work on the next blockbuster than working on the next blockbuster and 2 months later be the coffe boy


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## Daniel James (Mar 3, 2013)

Guy Bacos @ Sun Mar 03 said:


> I hope you're right James, in my case, references nor my Master degree never did anything for the work I got. What I'm basically saying is, don't count on that.
> 
> When I said "sneak in", it didn't mean that you would be the coffee boy and 2 months later work on the next blockbuster. It was a figure of speech. I find that a bit bizarre to have the need to explain this, but I guess I have to.



Yeah I see what you are saying, and like I said its not a guarantee that you will get work, it does however give him something that makes him stand out from a pile of similar candidates for a gig. Being legitimized by someone so respected.

Yeah I think it was probably the way you phrased the sneak in part, like they are taking a short cut or something. Personally I like the idea of earning respect doing things my way, although its most certainly not the most direct route to what I want to achieve haha. Sorry for making you clarify the point 

Also Cristof I really recommend trying to get work all around there world, if you are not already doing so, not just where you live. I have worked on projects from LA, Italy China, Japan and not once leaving my home studio for any of them. The internet is a magical thing 

-DJ


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## mwarsell (Mar 3, 2013)

*self-promotion on*

Inspired by this thread, by the work of Christof, by others' posts and an unwillingness to give up, I spent my day making this:

https://soundcloud.com/auralnight/alde

*self-promotion off*

Mods, if you don't like my behaviour  just delete this post. That's ok.


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## Arbee (Mar 3, 2013)

IMHO interpersonal communication skills, not talent, are most often the single difference between being busy and having nothing to do. This is especially true in any field where there this is no absolute measure of "the best" (compared with golf or tennis for example, where such measures do exist). If I've only taught my kids one thing, that's the one thing I believe will make the most difference in their lives.

-


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## Christof (Mar 3, 2013)

> If you are confident with your music, you are not running around trying to be a better composer. Better compared to what or who?


Markus, I read your post again.I am thankful for your honesty although you sound quite arrogant after I listened to your own reel, but I respect your opinion, and comments like these make this forum an interesting place.
Self confidence is good, but do you mean that one should stop running around trying to be a better composer just because he is confident with his own work?
I agree with Robin.
Should I sit down and be happy because I think I am so great?
Never.
Short story, most people here know it:
Spielberg asked Williams to score Schindlers List.
After reading the script Williams told Spielberg that he thinks he is not good enough to do the job because there are much better composers out there for this movie.
Spielberg answered that he knows that there are better composers out there, but they are all dead.

Think about it.


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 3, 2013)

Christof @ Sun Mar 03 said:


> Better to be the coffe boy and 2 months later work on the next blockbuster than working on the next blockbuster and 2 months later be the coffe boy



But then if you're the coffee boy again, you just have to wait 2 more months. :wink:


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## Guy Bacos (Mar 3, 2013)

I agree that PR, is essential, especially if you already have the talent.


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## Peter Alexander (Mar 3, 2013)

Christof - with the library music you're writing and other work you're doing, you've gone through a door. Keep at it as a new door will open for you.


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## Markus S (Mar 4, 2013)

Christof @ Sun Mar 03 said:


> > If you are confident with your music, you are not running around trying to be a better composer. Better compared to what or who?
> 
> 
> Markus, I read your post again.I am thankful for your honesty although you sound quite arrogant after I listened to your own reel, but I respect your opinion, and comments like these make this forum an interesting place.
> ...



Well, I guess that is the thing. You mistake being a good composer and getting work. You could write like John Williams and still get no work. If JW would have stayed in his room and tried to be a better composer, he wouldn't have gotten the job either. You seem to think writing better music would get you work. It won't. There is no such thing as good and bad music, only subjective appreciation or "fitting the context" in our work line.

This brings us to being arrogant : Do you think it is arrogant to not like something? I think I stated clearly that it sounded generic "to me". This is a fact, actually. And whatever you think my music is good or not or if you like it or not, does not add anything to the point. I am surprised you thought my statement sounded arrogant "after" listening to my music. This sounds like there was some general scale of being a good composer and you were above it (and if I was above you, you'd accept the judgment). Well, there is no such scale.


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## Christof (Mar 4, 2013)

No, it is not arrogant to not like something.I don't like Wagner for example, but he was a great composer.
There is no scale in music, thats true.
I just referred to your statement that you are getting bored of my type of music, that is eternally the same to your ears.Then I headed to your website and listened to your music and I expected something non generic.
I think there are better ways to express that you don't like someone's music.
But personally I don't have any problem with someone who says that he doesn't like my music.
Last year I worked on a TV series with three different directors (!), one loved my music, the other one hated it and the third didn't care about it.

I don't feel above anybody and I am not staying in my room waiting for work to come, read the posts above.


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## IvanP (Mar 4, 2013)

Markus S @ Mon Mar 04 said:


> Well, I guess that is the thing. You mistake being a good composer and getting work. You could write like John Williams and still get no work. If JW would have stayed in his room and tried to be a better composer, he wouldn't have gotten the job either. You seem to think writing better music would get you work. It won't. There is no such thing as good and bad music, only subjective appreciation or "fitting the context" in our work line.



Hi! Just chiming in after reading this very interesting thread which, I think affects us all...or at least I feel I'm in a similar situation as Christoph...

Your quote is an interesting fact...I would love to know your "circle of life" idea of a Film composer's career...

I read somewhere that Williams works 6 days a week and lives in a sort of semi monk way of life...as he understood that was the only way of getting better at his chops. 

So, basically, from what you are saying, a composer, in today's standards, has to Master all the Music theory before getting pro, since networking will not leave him room for practice and keep on learning things? 

That seems partly true, at least, in my case...I have been lately focusing on networking and the 4-6 hours dedicated to piano / analysis / writing has been really reduced to a minimum...

Still, I feel that I really need to keep on learning new things or I I'll stay behind the new kids on the block. 

I, as Christoph, also started late in my music education...does this means latecomers aren't allowed to do a successful pro career? 

The point is that, after a few years working and Studying, I know what things I can do and which others I cannot do...

I know my classical european theory quite well, I can conduct, I can orchestrate...the thing is...in order to stand up to people who ONLY does one of those things for a living, I need to keep boosting my chops or my music will sound dated. Even Williams had to move on from his 70's Jazzy and bitonal stuff in order to do other things... 

I used to have a gig every month, but crisis, bankruptcy, problems with payments has forced me to sell myself also as an orchestrator and a conductor, which is great, since I LOVE that. 

The problem is that there are people who only did that for a living and only focused on that, which are your main competitors....they've been mainly doing only that for years and you have been doing everything VS doing only one. 

So, in order to be able to stand up to that level of know how (you can be a great orchestrator, but you also need to be as fast and good as the others), there's no way you can compete unless you keep on learning and exercising, can you? 

So I can't really see the relation in not being good and getting some work...networking aside (being it obvious that if you don't knock on people's doors, no one should ever discover whether you're good or bad)

But, getting back at your point, I can't see how a worse composer can have a more successful career than a better one...even if he used some people to help him, he still needs to boost his conceptual side, keep on learning, etc.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Mar 4, 2013)

Wow! This is a huge thread with some great ideas but seems to have been lost into other side-topics!

Well, Christof - I like your music and I think it is only a matter of time before you start getting regular gigs. 

Of course, it is important to be talented in anything that you do in life in order to be where you dream to be. 

Very rarely I see people who are the top not really good at what they claim to do. I don't understand why we have to think about others and what they are doing or how successful they are even though they did not learn music properly. Let them be and do their thing.

Mr. Nolan is not going to work with an idiot composer because he not like that himself. Eventually you will find like minded people and get to work with them.

This is where a little bit of networking comes in - essentially its to find like minded people. It's the same in University. Networking is not a completely different thing that is only relevant to attending parties or whatever. 

Sure, you should be able to find time to attend some events and meet interesting people. Thats always nice. You get to learn and find out more about fellow composers and possibly meet producers/directors or completely different but interesting people.

There are so many ways you can find work for example. You could do cello recordings - perhaps start an online cello service! Its fairly simple to create a good looking website on wordpress - its very cheap.

You can have a facebook page where you can promote your music. You already have it on soundcloud.

Daniel said some good things. You can work on projects from across the world sitting at home or in your studio. 

But travelling does not hurt. I did meet some people I really admire and wanted to meet - a lot of guys from this forum and Scorecast in London where I was travelling to holiday as well as meet some people. I also gave an informal lecture at my University to current students. 

You do have to let people know what you can do. Eventually your work will speak for itself. 

Unless you are completely anti-social, I doubt you will be sitting at home for long.

Perhaps, this is a temporary phase. Of course, if there isn't much work in your country - specially the kind of music you want to write then look somewhere else. All the great composers traveled even back in the day to where the work was.

I live in Mumbai and songs are pretty big in Bollywood but that is not something I am really interested in. So, I look for scoring work. I met a few composers and gave them my reel. They really liked it and I have been working constantly since the last 5 years. 

But, I still want to do better in terms of music theory and film scoring. I want to learn a lot more and really write the kind of music I want to.

LA seems to be the ultimate place for that (for some reason people from LA are not always positive about this). 

So may be some day I can move there or perhaps somewhere else if I am good enough for someone to hire me. Until that time, I am working here and writing as best as I can, improving myself and always keeping the line open so to speak - so if an opportunity comes my way, I better be ready for it. 

Facebook is a great place too! But, make some trips and just meet some people. It's not so scary, we are all in the same boat actually. 

May be instead of meeting directors, you should meet composers who can offer you additional music work because you can notate, perform and perhaps even orchestrate apart from composing. So, if I needed an additional composer, you would be a great choice. 

Good luck with your work and I have a feeling that things are just about to get better for you.


Best,

Tanuj.


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## Christof (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks for returning to the main topic Tanuj!


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## Dean (Mar 4, 2013)

Hey Christof,
Im a self thought composer and I live in Dublin,Ireland,which is not exactly Hollywood to say the least but Im happy to say Im a working composer.
I never thought I could be a working composer but,more importantly,I never thought that I could NOT be a working composer.My point is,you have to be open to everything,..always stick to your instincts and inner beliefs,..practice and prepare,..always improving as a cutting edge composer. In my experience no matter how hard you try you can not force things to happen,that never works.If you let go of control thats where the true power lies because then you're open to everything.

By control I mean control over the fear of failure,self doubt,ego,money,the next gig,paying the bills,why the phone is'nt ringing,..all of these things change nothing,they just become obstacles to the point that you end up creating the thing you fear.
You have all the skills and talent you need but too much frustration and impatience will become a creative obstacle,put yourself out there then just let it happen,..it will.
(or maybe Im just full of it?,..likely.) D


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## Christof (Mar 6, 2013)

Thanks for the input Dean, this discussion really helps me getting my ass up again 
Some good and unexpected things happened in the last weeks and I keep on writing every day, even with my free mini piano App on my iPhone.


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## Waywyn (Mar 6, 2013)

Christof @ Sat Mar 02 said:


> > The so called endorsements by PG and HZ are motivating and uplifting, but Peter won't call me to play Cello on his next album, Hans won't call me to write additional music for his next blockbuster, he has people who do that perfectly.
> > These things are positive, nice moments that encourage me, but they don't mean potential work and they don't make my music better.
> > They are good for reputation or for gaining someones attention, but at the end I am the one who decides where my 'career' should go, and maybe I should change my attitude.



I (my advertising sales promotional bitch speak within me) strongly suggest that you absolutely change your attitude towards these things. You know I am overexaggerating a bit but put that statement on your FB profile! Not as a post but somehow with a nice picture at the very top!

Interact with people, like stuff, share stuff, discuss with people and add people which you think could be interested in you ... sooner or later someone will definitely hire you because of this statement ... and if not ... I would just wait a bit longer than just a few days 

Of course there is a fine line between using a quote from someone or missusing it (Hey, did I tell you that HZ said ... yes, buddy, about the 10th time *yawns*), but things like these are definitely worth a lot!


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## Christof (Mar 6, 2013)

Danke Alex.
Well I won't post that statement on my FB profile, but I have it on my website.
Yes, my attitude, I know.Allways afraid that people could call me an arrogant, egoistic braggart.Maybe I am far away from that.
More self confidence could help, but as I said before, I am very young as composer (not as father and husband) and I have to learn to swim in this pool, the water is a bit too cold but if I jump in every day I get used to it.
Christof


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## Waywyn (Mar 6, 2013)

Christof @ Wed Mar 06 said:


> Allways afraid that people could call me an arrogant, egoistic braggart



... and even IF? 

I know lots of people who do not like my music, think I suck, think I am arrogant, think my demos sound crap or whatever ... sooner or later it happens anyway!

While being aware of constructive criticism and giving weight to who said something why and when, ... just give big shit about it!

Especially I realized that on my way being self employed. At the beginning lots of people were talking like a dog to me giving candy: Oh, little Alex did a niiiiice track ... so cuuuute ... well doooone booooy ... after I was credited on a few projects suddenly I lacked quality, just had luck and whatnot all. Give a fuck about it, convert it into positive energy and let it drive you instead of making you think what "could" happen.


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## mwarsell (Mar 6, 2013)

Did you like my track inspired by this thread? Oh little Miika did a niiiice track....so cuuuute.....well dooooone boooooy.


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## impressions (Mar 6, 2013)

Hey christoff,
I share your frustration too, even that lately things are much better, I know it's just a matter of time until I will get back to marketing again.

My last insight in marketing is understanding the market in terms of catching a gig just when it's ripe. It is very hard to do, especially online. But there are ways if you keep your ears open and find yourself the proper tools of obtaining it.
I remember even though I've networked a lot and emailed to hundreds of people, the few that came back gave the nice feedback but gave me just maybe in the future. 
I don't think there's a limit of how many prospective clients are out there. Demos for libraries, talking to production houses for commercials, animators, game developers etc etc.
I have like a zillion of "to do's" of who to call, and I'm sure this is the case with you too.
Last year I did even more and nothing helped for about 4 months and then Came a huge gig that saved me(and burned me too abit but hey).
It's freakishly horrifying to work and see your income dwindle. And I didn't count off working at another profession until things will get better. But it didn't happen yet.
Be patient, persistent, and believe there are potential clients-as there are, I know that and so are you.

Good luck


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## germancomponist (Mar 6, 2013)

http://hustlersnotebook.com/2011/05/13/personalbrand-market-yourself/ (http://hustlersnotebook.com/2011/05/13/ ... -yourself/)


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## Christof (Mar 9, 2013)

Does any of you guys have an agent or manager who cares of all these networking and promotional things?
Do they really help or are they just blood suckers?


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## dgburns (Mar 9, 2013)

Christof @ Sat Mar 09 said:


> Does any of you guys have an agent or manager who cares of all these networking and promotional things?
> Do they really help or are they just blood suckers?



there was a thread probably in the working in the industry area by Charlie Clouser,that talks about this in great length.


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## germancomponist (Mar 9, 2013)

Christof @ Sat Mar 09 said:


> Does any of you guys have an agent or manager who cares of all these networking and promotional things?
> Do they really help or are they just blood suckers?



I would not overestimate the networking. You can also waste a lot of precious time with doing this..... . Which "scout" trusts the number of "followers" and "likes" on these pages? (Today, when everyone can buy these followers and likes for a little money .... .)


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## Dean (Mar 9, 2013)

Hey Christof,

An agent/manager can be a great asset because they can introduce you to big clients who normally would'nt work with a relatively unknown composer.Also a good agent will fight for much more money than you will and deal with contracts etc,they can also play the bad guy with clients while you can remain the good guy in the clients eyes.My agent very quickly introduced me to some major clients who I now have an ongoing working relationship with.
However its not all plain sailing,..agents will only do so much as they usually have another 5 or ten composers to look after aswell,and the big fish always get the most attention so you have to keep selling and hussleing yourself,its a mistake to lie back and think they will keep getting you work.(I have learned this lesson already)
Basically do whatever works get an agent if you can but also keep networking and selling yourself.
You need to connect or create a connection with an agent.producer or director somehow,in my experience websites,forums,business cards,freebie projects,cold calling, composer groups etc,never lead to a paying project/gig,..its always word of mouth,someone you know or worked with before etc.Success is when hard work meets opportunity/luck,..Create your own opportunity! D


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## Christof (Mar 22, 2013)

Hi friends,

thanks for your input and support!
Things are getting much better today than some months ago.
I am advancing from a L- List composer to a K-list composer.
Small steps!


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## Christof (Apr 10, 2013)

> do you like your own music? Do you really enjoy listening to it, playing and writing it? Or are you looking to please while writing what you think people expect and enjoy? I will be so bold to say that it is by FAR more important what you think yourself of your own music than what anyone else, including Peter Gabriel or Hans Zimmer thinks of it.



I just stumbled upon this commentary again and I have to add that we are talking about film music here, I have to please people with my music, because I need to sell it.
This is a commercial thing, sometimes I sell music that I don't like, sometimes I don't sell music that I love.
We are entertainers, we have to think about what people expect and enjoy!

If you are a film composer who doesn't try to please people you'll probably fail.


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