# Working for music libraries



## Peter M. (Feb 21, 2014)

I saw a fellow composer talk about how bad it is working for music libraries on facebook today. How they take the rights to your tracks, how the money isn't good etc.

I wanted to ask you guys, how have your experiences been? What are good music libraries out there? How do you get to work with them? Are there any problems if say a library company is located in US and I'm from Europe?

I'm interested in any inside information, advice or stories you have. Are libraries a good place to start to get your tracks out there? How high is the quality control? Does everything have to sound like Audiomachine/Two steps from hell stuff?


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## jleckie (Feb 21, 2014)

http://musiclibraryreport.com

they charge now but its worth it.


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## Daryl (Feb 21, 2014)

Peter M. @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> I saw a fellow composer talk about how bad it is working for music libraries on facebook today. How they take the rights to your tracks, how the money isn't good etc.
> 
> I wanted to ask you guys, how have your experiences been? What are good music libraries out there? How do you get to work with them? Are there any problems if say a library company is located in US and I'm from Europe?
> 
> I'm interested in any inside information, advice or stories you have. Are libraries a good place to start to get your tracks out there? How high is the quality control? Does everything have to sound like Audiomachine/Two steps from hell stuff?


There are often questions on this forum about music libraries, so I suggest that if you have a spare week or so, you do a search, and you'll find lots of interesting information.

However, I can answer some of your questions from my perspective:

1) If you're any good, the money is fine. If it's not fine, you're probably not very good. However, see my other points.
2) There are good and bad libraries. It is very difficult to get in with the good ones, unless you have some sort of track record, or like any other part of the industry, you know someone on the inside.
3) Quality depends on the library, the label and the proposed end usage.
4) Trailer stuff is currently very fashionable. It's also the most populated part of the industry, so if that's what you write, chances are that you won't make a living. Unless you're extremely good at it.

Other people will have different answers to your questions. I can only talk about my experience.

D


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## mscottweber (Feb 21, 2014)

Composing for libraries is something that takes a long time to become profitable at. Not only do you need a large catalogue (some will say upwards of 1000 tracks if you want to earn a comfortable living) but you have to discern which libraries will work best for you and your music, and that can take some time. 

I'll second musiclibraryreport.com as a great resource to get you started. It'll help you learn about that side of the composing world, and it will give you a list (with composer reviews) of nearly every library out there. At the end of the day, though, it still requires a lot of effort and hustling, just like the bespoke scoring world.


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## gsilbers (Feb 21, 2014)

Daryl @ Fri Feb 21 said:


> Peter M. @ Fri Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > I saw a fellow composer talk about how bad it is working for music libraries on facebook today. How they take the rights to your tracks, how the money isn't good etc.
> ...



this is pretty much about right.


only thing left out was the europe/us part. im in LA so i know the compay owners. 
from far away, you'd have to trust folks.

also there is librarys who have way too many composer from anywhere so getting your track somewere is more dificult imo. over here, i go to social events, friends tell me there might be some request for X type music, so i submit when they need it. 
and they need it fast and a lot. damn reality shows is non stop music . 

also, library music is for program that uses library music.. duh... 
so reality tv shows and background stuff like that. orchestral stuff, hmm i dont know. id like to know. i think for that composers get hired. trilers is another story, (point 4 above is good).


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## germancomponist (Feb 22, 2014)

Daryl @ Sat Feb 22 said:


> There are often questions on this forum about music libraries, so I suggest that if you have a spare week or so, you do a search, and you'll find lots of interesting information.
> 
> However, I can answer some of your questions from my perspective:
> 
> ...



Nothing to add... .

Here in Germany there is a company that pays fair. http://www.sonoton.de/


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## Peter M. (Feb 22, 2014)

Any thoughts on whether libraries are a good place to start for a newbie composer like myself? 
I live in Serbia which is a small country and all media music needs are done by like 3 guys for all the tv shows, series etc. There is really no place for newcomers until one of the regular guys retires. So basically the only way I could get a gig is if I find something online. That's why I thought libraries might be worth getting into. I'm not expecting to start making a living off of it, I'd pretty much be happy with knowing that I'm going to get payed sometime in the next year or two . Just something to keep me going. I'm not expecting composing to be my only source of income.


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## Mike Marino (Feb 22, 2014)

Hi Peter,

I'd suggest just jumping in and giving it a try. MLR (Music Library Report) is very helpful; I'd also recommend Emmett's book for music licensing (http://www.thebusinessofmusiclicensing.com/). Start visiting some libraries and listening to what they offer. Take some time and write some tracks and begin submitting to libraries. Emmett's book can help steer you towards what to look for in a library (by decoding some of the terms used in that industry) and MLR can help steer you away from libraries that might be less reputable.

So I'd say just give it a shot.

- Mike


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 22, 2014)

Greetings Peter,

No libraries I have worked with mind/care where I live. You can contact any of the ones you want to wherever they are in the world. I have never personally met any of the people I work with in any of the libraries I work for. Some of them I have not even ever spoken to on the phone 

Library Music in the UK is administered by the MCPS, and here is a link to their website with contact details for a whole bunch of libraries….

http://www.prsformusic.com/users/productionmusic/libraries/Pages/default.aspx (http://www.prsformusic.com/users/produc ... fault.aspx)

There are website links for most of them. You can visit their sites and assess whether you want to approach them. Most of the big world-wide ones are there too. Many of them welcome submissions from new composers and give details on how they would like you to submit demo material for them.

If they see value in your work for their clients (read: if they think you will make them money!) they won't care about your experience or inexperience or where you live. They will just care about the quality of your music. Put together the strongest material you have in the genres you want to write in, and just go for it.

Best of luck to you 

Stephen


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## rgames (Feb 22, 2014)

You don't need any advice - just do it!

There are many directories available, so start digging though some of them and start submitting music. If you ask 10 people about music libraries you'll get 10 different opinions, none of which likely applies to you. There is no good advice and, quite frankly, it's in everyone's interest to give you bad advice because you're the competition! So just do it.

If you want my bad advice, here it is: there are three factors:

1. Networking
2. Quantity
3. Luck

Just like in the film music world, quality is too subjective and is not a factor. If it sells, then it earns the "quality" moniker. You can't assign a quality rating before it sells, only after, and nobody can know until it starts to sell...! So don't worry about quality.

Everything sells given enough networking, quantity, and luck. All you have to do is turn on your TV to prove that to yourself.

rgames


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## Peter M. (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses guys!


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2014)

Peter, as far as quality is concerned, Richard is correct in one way. There is a huge amount of cr*p on TV. However, you must realise that the amount you see on TV is a drop in the ocean, when it comes to the amount of cr*p that exists in music libraries. Thinking that you can make a good living without worrying about quality is naive, in my view.

However, the better your tracks sound, the more chance you have of getting the legitimate libraries to commission music from you. If your music is not good quality, you will spend your entire career writing for one of those dodgy Internet companies, or RF, or both.

Just to be clear; with the right library company, anyone who is any good should be able to earn £100K a year, without breaking into a sweat. If not, the chances are that the library one writes for is not good, or the composer is not good, or both.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 23, 2014)

Agree with everything Daryl says there, although have yet to see personal experience of the £100k a year part. The libraries I work with are good ones, so that just means the problem is.........


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 23, 2014)

So being a good composer with lots of tracks on a good library will guarantee £100K a year? On royalties alone? Sweet.


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## MichaelL (Feb 23, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> If your music is not good quality, you will spend your entire career writing for one of those dodgy Internet companies, or RF, or both.



This is not to suck up, but two of the library composers whose work I admire most are 
Daryl and in the US Donn Wilkerson. http://donnwilkerson.com/The_Music_Of_Donn_Wilkerson/Welcome.html (http://donnwilkerson.com/The_Music_Of_D ... lcome.html)

Different styles, but work well worth appreciating.

I agree with Daryl regarding "dodgy Internet companies." 

The problem with RF libraries is that there are no gatekeepers so there is an ocean of crap. But...and maybe this is only in the US, I believe that RF libraries serve a very different clientele from good exclusive libraries. Specifically, I think that many of their buyers are small non-broadcast producers, who do everything from corporate videos to wedding videos. Those who say you'll never hear RF music on the BBC or Nova, etc., are probably correct. So, don't expect, or look for a lot of back end PRO money, if any.

That said, I know of a number of composers who have used RF libraries for a base revenue stream, a place to start, and have then moved on, when that income provided them with the ability to focus on producing higher quality material.

I do think that there is a difference between the library business in the UK and the US. I think the UK is far more supportive of library composers, while it's a bit of the wild west here. Maybe that's just my perception. 

I do agree that quality counts. Whether it's to get into a good exclusive or to rise above the fray in the RF world. Developing your skill set is never a waste of time.

Oh, and +1 on Emmett's book.

Best of luck,

Michael


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## Vin (Feb 23, 2014)

+1 on Emmett Cooke's book, really well-written and informative.


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Agree with everything Daryl says there, although have yet to see personal experience of the £100k a year part. The libraries I work with are good ones, so that just means the problem is.........


HAHA. Well just remember that being a good composer is not the same thing as being a successful library writer. There are many more factors, and if your income stream is not what it should be, talk to the album producers and the sales team (actually they are probably more important) to find out why your music is not being used as much as it should be.

D


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2014)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> So being a good composer with lots of tracks on a good library will guarantee £100K a year? On royalties alone? Sweet.


There are no guarantees, but I could name 30 people in the UK for whom that is true, and I only know people from a couple of libraries. However, it's all about taking it seriously, and not just trying to use the library as a dustbin for the tracks that were rejected by a previous client, IMO.

D


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2014)

MichaelL @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> This is not to suck up, but two of the library composers whose work I admire most are
> Daryl and in the US Donn Wilkerson. http://donnwilkerson.com/The_Music_Of_Donn_Wilkerson/Welcome.html (http://donnwilkerson.com/The_Music_Of_D ... lcome.html)
> 
> Different styles, but work well worth appreciating.


Now I'm blushing. :oops: :oops: 

D


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## rgames (Feb 23, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Thinking that you can make a good living without worrying about quality is naive, in my view.


Here's where I'm coming from:

I've solicited opinions from a lot of people about a lot of my library tracks. These are people who, in theory, have the experience that makes them worth listening to. Their opinions are all over the place - that track is too niche, that track is not good production quality, that track is great, that one is good but won't earn money, etc. - and in 5-6 years of doing library music, I haven't found any correlation between comments on quality and the amount of money a track makes. It's all over the place.

Furthermore, I've been asked to tweak a number of library tracks for advertisements and have worked through the process of competing for those placements. For those that I don't win (almost all of them...) I almost always see the spot on TV at some point and have a chance to see what did win. Sometimes I see the spot and think "yeah - that's a better track" and sometimes I see the spot and think "Really?" Again, there's no correlation between what I view as quality and what actually makes money.

So whether it's other people's judgement of the quality of my music or my own, I can't find any relation between quality and what actually makes money.

I can, however, see a direct relationship between revenues and networking and quantity of tracks, so I have to say those factors far outweigh quality as a predictor of what will generate revenue.

rgames


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2014)

Richard, there are a few more things to consider.

1) Don't think of adverts as being about quality. There are usually more about the Creative team being able to have some input and justify why they get paid. If your tracks are pretty much compete before they hear them, it's highly likely that they won't want them, because there is no room for their input.

2) All libraries are different and service a particular market. If your tracks aren't doing well, it may be that you're with the wrong library.

3) Your tracks may have little or no commercial value for the markets your sales people are aiming for. Again, try a different library.

All I can really say is that I've never written a track that didn't make money. My albums cost a minimum of £10K to make and sometimes as much as £30K. If there was a sizable amount of luck in getting the investment back, I don't think the albums would be made in the first place.

D


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 23, 2014)

@rgames: But just from a personal respect and enjoyment point of you, wouldn't you prefer to try and deliver the very best you can do on every track rather than junk? Even if junk does sell?


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## Peter M. (Feb 23, 2014)

Help out a noob here, what are RF libraries? 

Also, when I asked about quality, I thought if there is a really high treshold for your music to be accepted? I obviously can't make tracks sound good like guys from TSFH, audiomachine or Immediate music. I also thought about genre. I don't know what sells better, the big epic orchestra stuff or is there room for lets say pop/jazz? Those are the genres that I feel more comfortable in since my background as a performer is in those genres.


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 23, 2014)

I'm assuming it is short for 'royalty free'. If you are a member of a collection agency (like the PRS here in the UK) working royalty free is actually illegal anyway I believe.

I'd say don't worry too much about which genre makes money. Go for the genres you are strong at, and that you want to write in. The last thing you want to do is pitch a hip hop track, have the library like it and ask you for a whole album if you hate writing hip hop for example


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## Peter M. (Feb 23, 2014)

Jees. This is complicated. There is no "collection agency" where I live. I mean there is but it's crap and nobody works with them anyway. Would that mean I'd have to sign up for a company in the UK or US if I'd like to collect royalties? Is that even possible?

So RF libraries, you submit music to, they sell it to someone else one time, u get lets say half that money, and that's it?

(I apologize for all the questions, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this business)


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> I'm assuming it is short for 'royalty free'. If you are a member of a collection agency (like the PRS here in the UK) working royalty free is actually illegal anyway I believe.


There are various versions of Royalty Free, once of which is the "don't charge a licence fee" version.

You're correct that PRS members aren't allowed to work Royalty Free. I believe that there are some cable channels in the US that don't pay Royalties, and PRS normally won't allow programmes that use music written by their members to be broadcast on these channels. However, I also remember that Sex and the City has to get a special licence in order to be broadcast, also that PRS (and other Collection agency) members got their usual Broadcast Royalty.

D


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## AC986 (Feb 23, 2014)

Peter M you need to get a library you can contribute to. Have you done that yet? 

When you have done that, good advice would be to ask them what they want from you.
It's no good just sending in any piece of work to them just because you think it's good and indeed, it may very well be good subjectively and objectively. 
But that doesn't matter that much when it come to library music because they generally have and know what specifics they are looking for.

Also keep 30 seconds, 60 seconds and stings in mind if you can.

Main criteria apart from that is to make it sound as good as you can and don't compress the shit out of it. 

Edit: yes write in album format; 10 to 14 tracks of the same genre/style and like Jonathan said to me after about track 7 you'll probably be a basket case by then anyway.


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## doctornine (Feb 23, 2014)

Daryl, you seriously deserve a gold medal for sticking with this thread.

To be honest, whenever Library crops up on VI, it gets bashed by all the usual suspects, with all the usual arguments, and defended by the courageous few.

~o)


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## bbunker (Feb 23, 2014)

Just get Emmett's book. You're kind of the person he wrote it for. Don't fight your destiny, young Padawan.


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## Daryl (Feb 23, 2014)

doctornine @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> Daryl, you seriously deserve a gold medal for sticking with this thread.


Ooo, that would be nice. I did win a ping pong medal a few weeks back, but it's always nice to win. :wink: 

D


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## rgames (Feb 23, 2014)

Stephen Rees @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> @rgames: But just from a personal respect and enjoyment point of you, wouldn't you prefer to try and deliver the very best you can do on every track rather than junk? Even if junk does sell?


Of course, but you can get stuck in a rut worrying "Is this good enough?"

Here's an example of a track that I consider not my best:

http://www.rgamesmusic.com/clients/Temp/Chopin_Waltz_Op_69_No_2_Clar_and_Strings.mp3 (http://www.rgamesmusic.com/clients/Temp ... trings.mp3)

Note that it's a direct link to an mp3 - I don't even have it on my Soundcloud page because I don't think it's a very good track. That recording was intended as a demo - the lead is rough (I didn't even automate out the breath noise) and the mix is not good. I never re-did it because it just didn't flow very well and I didn't like it much. However, I submitted it because I have a bunch of similar tracks and the library seemed to like them, so what the heck.

Lo and behold, it shows up in a major motion picture and earns $900 for that placement, alone:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1196956/sou ... tt_trv_snd

Now here's a track that I do consider good:
[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F53098291&secret_url=false[/flash]

The performance is much better, the mix is much better, it's just a better track. And yet I have made very little money from that track even though it's basically the same genre/instrumentation/feel as the previous one.

Finally, here's a track that is overtly commercial and not very high musical quality but people like it and it's earned $800 so far (up-front fee for this version and an alt version):

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F57473399&secret_url=false[/flash]

So a mix of genres and quality - I could go on all day with more examples... There's just no discernible relationship. A couple of tracks I consider not my best in a couple different genres that do earn some decent money. And one that I do consider very good that has earned almost nothing (so far).

rgames


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## Peter M. (Feb 23, 2014)

Sadly that website for Emmet's book isn't working. Hopefully it will get back online sometime soon.


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## Mike Marino (Feb 23, 2014)

Hm. I just checked and it's good to go. I added the URL hyperlink to my original post above.


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## MichaelL (Feb 23, 2014)

rgames @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> The performance is much better, the mix is much better, it's just a better track. And yet I have made very little money from that track even though it's basically the same genre/instrumentation/feel as the previous one.



Actually Richard, better is a relative term. Better for what? Better for your clarinet playing standards? More musical? Better recording" To whose ears?

In the library world, often the things by which musicians measure "better" are less relevant. 
"Better" often means more useful. 

The first example, has a whimsical quality, and I would almost bet that's what sold it. The second cue, while it has maybe a similar sound (I don't think it does), has a bit of ethnic melancholy, rather than humor. 

Editors do not think in very musical terms. They think in very general recognizable terms. They hear pizzicato strings and a clarinet, playing a waltz with a little humor, and they say "Oh...Desperate Housewives....I like it" (quote take from actual editing session in response to generic pizzicato strings).

It's a paradox of what library composers do. The quality is invisible, because it's in a language that a lot of editors don't speak. 

The Jingle Bells arrangement is a functional piece of music. You don't do something like that to impress your musical buddies, but it works for a lot of purposes. Similar in vein to a cue called "Sugar Plum Daddy" from Jason Livesey.... a hip hop spin on the Nutcracker. 

I remember watching a 4th of July fireworks display, just after Copland's Rodeo entered the public domain.
When Rodeo starting playing to accompany the fireworks the person behind me said to his girlfriend, "hey it's the beef music" ...in reference to a currently running ad for the US Beef industry. 

My point is that the public's level of musical literacy, and perception of it's function, is likely be vastly different from yours. So, what YOU think is better, may not matter much on certain levels, and it's certainly impossible to predict or correlate, as you point out.


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## Aaron Sapp (Feb 23, 2014)

There are plenty of production music companies out there to choose from. Here's some simple criteria to go by:

*1. They pay upfront*

You need to find someone who pays enough upfront to keep you fed n' sheltered (averaging a turnaround of a track a week). 

*2. You keep 100% of the Writer's Share*

Otherwise, what's the point? 

*3. They have experience placing tracks*

Same as #2.


Out of all the composing gigs I've ever done, production music has proved by far the most difficult to do well. The good news is, if you're an excellent producer, it will eventually pay off. If you're looking to churn out the same old tired crap (lackluster trailer music, straight pop/orchestral/rock/hiphop/electronica/etc.), your music will earn you little, if any royalties.

Obviously more music will generate more income. That's a given. But it's not a quantity game. A great track (stylistically relevant with a unique spin, well-produced and editorially sound) will have a much better chance getting placed. 100 awesome cuts will earn you far more money than 1,000 haphazard tracks. If an editor has access to a rock cut that's unique, brilliantly-produced and useful, why would he/she pick your three-hour effort that you quickly cobbled together?


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## Peter M. (Feb 23, 2014)

I get all that. Keep in mind tho' I'm a beginner and I just want to kind of feel my way into this industry.

I've never made money actually composing music, altho' I have been doing it for quite some time now. I used to be a (and still am) a keyboardist/drummer for hire. That's how I made my living.

I now want to take the next step and try to make composing my career as it is what I love doing and can imagine myself doing in the future. So basically, what I want is sort of a beginners plan for getting in the game. Just to see if I'm good enough, you know, to see if there are people that would actually pay money to have my stuff. Libraries seem a pretty harmless place to try that. No pressure, no deadlines, and creative freedom.
That has been my thinking, get my feet wet first, before I take something like "score my video game" gig, and realize halfway into it that I bit off more than I can chew.


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## rgames (Feb 23, 2014)

MichaelL @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> My point is that the public's level of musical literacy, and perception of it's function, is likely be vastly different from yours. So, what YOU think is better, may not matter much on certain levels, and it's certainly impossible to predict or correlate, as you point out.


That's certainly true. However, when I was just starting to get in to library music, what I found was that even folks who were supposed to be "in the know" about what sells gave me widely different opinions on quality/better/worse/etc.

That's why I say just do it - I don't think there's any meaningful agreement on what "quality" means. There is general agreement, however, that a larger library will generate more revenue. There is also general agreement that networking is a tremendous help.

So, whenever someone asks about library music, that's what I say. Networking and quantity are the only things you can really measure. Quality is too subjective so there's no point in wasting a lot of time thinking about it. And, of course, luck is always a factor so you have to throw it in there!

rgames


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## rgames (Feb 23, 2014)

Peter M. @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> That has been my thinking, get my feet wet first, before I take something like "score my video game" gig, and realize halfway into it that I bit off more than I can chew.


Writing for libraries will help you develop your production chops but writing library music and writing for film are very different skillsets. You can use the same production tools for both but the approaches are very different, so keep that in mind.

rgames


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## Whatisvalis (Feb 23, 2014)

I would have to agree, I think writing for Libraries is a great way to inprove your chops. Don't spread yourself too thin though, concentrate on styles you do well.


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## chillbot (Feb 23, 2014)

rgames @ Sun Feb 23 said:


> writing library music and writing for film are very different skillsets. You can use the same production tools for both but the approaches are very different, so keep that in mind.



This is so true. I think I could write 20 pages on writing for libraries. Maybe I will sometime but it's such an uninteresting skillset. In short, you want to make your tracks *useable* and *editable*. Chances are you might have 400 tracks in a library of 10,000 tracks, you want the editor to pick YOUR tracks to use so you get paid. In LA, 99% of the time it's the editors who choose tracks, not the producers or directors, and some of the editors are really horrible at working with music. Make it easy on them, they'll start to gravitate towards your tracks.

Common sense stuff: keep your tracks short, 60-75 seconds is fine, make a bunch of submixes like if you have a lead trumpet or lead synth make sure there's a version without it that lines up the exact same (start time is the same so they are interchangeable), always include a real simple mix like "drum & bass" it will get cut in under dialogue, keep the same time signature and tempo throughout so it's easily editable, think in standard 8-bar "blocks" of music, if you modulate within the piece modulate back to the original key for the ending so it can be spliced (so often they use the first 20 seconds then cut to the end), make a big build to the end, sharp transitions are good rather than cymbal swells that overhang the transition and make it tough to chop up, same with crash cymbals use them sparingly so it can be looped if needed, never try to do too much-- standard AABA or ABBA or AABB is a good form or even just AAA that builds. Maybe that's too much info. The biggest issue with reels that I see is that people want to write "songs" instead of "tracks".


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## Aaron Sapp (Feb 23, 2014)

There really is no plan to get into the game. You just take your best, attention-getting works and submit them. If it's exceptional and close to what they're looking for, chances are they'll take an interest. If it's not up their alley, they probably won't respond. 

These guys get submissions all the time and do listen to a lot of it, but they only need five seconds to determine whether or not you're worth taking on.


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## MichaelL (Feb 23, 2014)

Aaron used the word "useful" and chillbot used the word "usable."

That is a key concept, and something that is often difficult for "COMPOSERS" to grasp.

Do the best work you can, but check you ego at the door.


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## AC986 (Feb 24, 2014)

One good tip could be to listen to what's playing behind commercials, documentaries etc on tv in and of the present. Think about what's fashionable and the latest fad at the moment to get you started.

It's mostly forgettable, but generally sounds good. So whatever you put out, at least try and make it sound good, because audiences don't really understand what is good, only that they don't like anything to sound nasty.

The line between bespoke music specifically written for a tv or film programmes and library music is quite thin. There are differences obviously, but the one thing they have in common is they are generally well produced. And I can't stress enough about trying use real instruments whenever possible, by good players.


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## doctornine (Feb 24, 2014)

chillbot @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> This is so true. I think I could write 20 pages on writing for libraries. Maybe I will sometime but it's such an uninteresting skillset.



Uninteresting ????


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## chillbot (Feb 24, 2014)

I just mean what Michael said about checking your ego at the door.

I feel like writing *useable* tracks for libraries is more of a craft than an art.

I like to say I'm really good at writing music (I am) which is completely different than saying I write good music.


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## Jaap (Feb 24, 2014)

Hi Peter,

I never saw a reaction anymore on your question about the collecting agency. They are called PRO (Performance Rights Organization) and you also have one in Serbia. 
Here is the link:

http://www.sokoj.rs/

I have worked with a serbian composer in the past and from what I remember he wasn't too happy about them, but there is one 
You can also join another PRO in another country, for example PRS in the UK 
Here is a full list anyway of PRO's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performanc ... ganisation

Good luck!


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## Stephen Rees (Feb 24, 2014)

Just following up on Jaap's information, I would say joining a PRO should be one of the first things on your list of things to do if you are looking to compose professionally - library music or otherwise.

I don't believe joining a PRO in another country should be a problem, but I don't know what impact it would have for you in currency exchange charges.

It might be worth contacting some of your Serbian composing colleagues for some guidance on the best thing to do regarding PRO membership.


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## Peter M. (Feb 25, 2014)

@ Jaap Yeah, Sokoj is terrible, but that's mostly because of outdated laws on copyright in this country, and the fact that the state really doesn't care about artists. 

@Stephen

I actually don't know anybody who has tried to join a PRO from a different country, but there really isn't much people who are doing composing for a living here. I'll have to ask around, but seems to me I'd have better chances getting some advice with a guy from another european country that has done this already.


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## doctornine (Feb 25, 2014)

chillbot @ Mon Feb 24 said:


> I just mean what Michael said about checking your ego at the door.
> 
> I feel like writing *useable* tracks for libraries is more of a craft than an art.
> 
> I like to say I'm really good at writing music (I am) which is completely different than saying I write good music.



Hah - I'd agree. I don't consider that I'm a brilliant writer, but I do seem to have the ability to write material that works with lots of different programming. Which I guess is an art in itself.

And getting back to the OP... yes you can register with a PRO outside your home country. I know a few UK based writers that opted to go with American PRO's instead of being with the PRS. There are some Tax implications, but otherwise it's not really a problem.


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## rgames (Feb 25, 2014)

doctornine @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> chillbot @ Mon Feb 24 said:
> 
> 
> > I just mean what Michael said about checking your ego at the door.
> ...


It's kind of like the relationship between engineering and science - engineering applies science to solve problems but engineers aren't pushing the boundaries of science.

Likewise, writing for libraries or film (or any commercial medium, really) isn't about pushing musical boundaries, it's about applying established musical techniques to solve some musical problem.

rgames


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## rpaillot (Feb 25, 2014)

Library music is really mysterious to me. 
Sometimes, a track I wrote very quickly would earn me the most royalties, while tracks being too carefully thought through, would never get used.
I've the feeling, that there are simply no rules except the obvious ones like having a clear structure and making the tracks easily editable : ABAB-Ending
Otherwise, have fun, and be genuine when writing tracks !


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## Jaap (Feb 25, 2014)

Peter M. @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> @ Jaap Yeah, Sokoj is terrible, but that's mostly because of outdated laws on copyright in this country, and the fact that the state really doesn't care about artists.
> 
> @Stephen
> 
> I actually don't know anybody who has tried to join a PRO from a different country, but there really isn't much people who are doing composing for a living here. I'll have to ask around, but seems to me I'd have better chances getting some advice with a guy from another european country that has done this already.



I joined PRS in the UK in 2011 and I know also other composers who joined while they are not from the UK. Same goes for composers outside the US joining BMI or ASCAP. You have to fill in some tax forms to make sure you pay tax in your own country.
Otherwise it is no problem at all to join a foreign PRO.

It's a matter of fill in the forms, print, sign, send and pay (for PRS it was around 30 pound if I remember correctly). Otherwise shoot a mail to BMI, ASCAP or PRS with your questions/concerns and they are probably more then willing to help you out with your questions. You are cetainly not the first foreigner who is facing this problem.

The reason I joined a foreign PRO is because BUMA (the dutch one) had awefully outdated laws as well and I was working mainly for the game industry and they didn't understand the whole work for hire and/or buyout thing at that time, plus they are have been horrible with tracking library music, even if they got cue sheets and took years before I saw something.


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## Peter M. (Feb 25, 2014)

Thanks a lot Jaap! I'll contact some of them to see what I can find out. What would you suggest I go with, the UK ones or the US?


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## Jaap (Feb 25, 2014)

I have good experience with PRS, they do great tracking of library music both in Europe and as well the US (and the rest).
I have no experienc with both US PRO's, but from what I read is that if you go on the library music tour in your carreer BMI is a tad better in tracking outside the US. If somebody think I am wrong, then correct me 

The advantage of BMI is that it is free to join, while PRS requires a one time fee. The US tax form is however again a bit more hassle then the UK one.


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## Peter M. (Feb 25, 2014)

You guys are amazing. Thanks so much to everyone!


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## MichaelL (Feb 26, 2014)

rpaillot @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Library music is really mysterious to me.
> Sometimes, a track I wrote very quickly would earn me the most royalties, while tracks being too carefully thought through, would never get used.
> I've the feeling, that there are simply no rules except the obvious ones like having a clear structure and making the tracks easily editable : ABAB-Ending
> Otherwise, have fun, and be genuine when writing tracks !




No mystery. Library music, by and large, is music for the masses. Overly intellectual music has its place...somewhere else (like a recital hall on a college campus). It's helps to cut the broadest path.

Quote from an actual conversation with a library owner when asked if he wanted me to dumb down the cues: "This is for radio. It's impossible to be too stupid for radio."

It really depends on the library, and the intended consumer / audience.


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2014)

rpaillot @ Tue Feb 25 said:


> Library music is really mysterious to me.
> Sometimes, a track I wrote very quickly would earn me the most royalties, while tracks being too carefully thought through, would never get used.
> I've the feeling, that there are simply no rules except the obvious ones like having a clear structure and making the tracks easily editable : ABAB-Ending
> Otherwise, have fun, and be genuine when writing tracks !



I mentioned it before but think of a scientist trying to explain a girl what he feels for her. We as composers (being scientists in a sense) try to write a well crafted piece by applying all the knowledge we have.
So this scientist explains how all his hormones rush through whatever parts of his body while he tries to perfectly explain the exact biochemistry of what is going on and how the girl should react to these processes.

Someone else comes along, knees down in front of the girl and simply says: I love you ... while looking deep into her eyes! BOOM!

The scientist may be astonished for a moment, thinking what went wrong. He did it all so perfectly well ... why didn't it work out?!


If a track is successful or not does NEVER depend how complex, well written or whatever WE (as composers) think it is. The only thing that counts is, how much the track "touches" or "moves" someone!


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## doctornine (Feb 26, 2014)

I think Alex pretty much hit the nail on the head.

The single highest earning track I have, was written as a virtual throw away, it has 4 notes.

It has been, and still continues to get used all over the place and frankly I'm so embarrassed by it I'm not even going to give a link.

Whereas tracks I have laboured over for weeks, that I think are great, have made pennies in comparison.....


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## Peter M. (Feb 26, 2014)

I hate to bother you again guys, but I'm in need of a little bit more help. I contacted BMI, and they said it shouldn't be a problem for me to join them, and they sent me some documents. Now, before I send them in, I was wondering if there is someone who is on BMI as a foreign citizen that could help me with filling out tax W-8BEN form? I don't want to send it in wrong, and I'm not entirely sure what all of the data asked of me exactly is.


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## Jetzer (Mar 1, 2014)

^^ Sorry I can't help you with that.

I'm about to start with library work as well, bought the e-book and subscribed to MLR. The e-book is great, but I'm still a bit puzzled which libraries to choose. There seem so many of them. 

Do you guys have any general advice? Or do you just dive in, doing the research, uploading songs to several libraries, see what works well. 

It seems to many me that on the lower end it is more about quantity. The higher end libraries are a bit more difficult to get into but ask more quality-wise (well produced albums).


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## rgames (Mar 1, 2014)

JH @ Sat Mar 01 said:


> Do you guys have any general advice? Or do you just dive in, doing the research, uploading songs to several libraries, see what works well.


The best advice I can give is the same as what I've given in this thread: don't worry about advice! Just do it. The more new advice you get, the more it will conflict with advice you've already received.

Start making contacts and writing a bunch of music. The rest is up to you to figure out.

If you want some other advice to ignore, though, here's some: make sure you get names, e-mail addresses and phone numbers for library contacts. If you're paying for a directory that doesn't have that info, I'm skeptical of the value. Google is free and can give you a near-endless list of music library websites.

rgames


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## Jetzer (Mar 1, 2014)

Just do it, sounds good. Sometimes I get into the habit of reading too much and over-analyzing and get a bit discouraged  

Back to work!


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## Phil Garbutt (Mar 1, 2014)

@ PeterM
this is what I did with W8-BEN: follow exactly & all will be good.

Part I
1 Name
2 Serbia
3 tick the box "Individual"
4 your address

Part II
9a ctick the box & write Serbia on the dotted lines
10 fill in the empty parts writing (in order):
- "14"
- "zero (0)"
- "independant personal services"
- "the US tax shall not be deductible from the income for independant personal services of a resident of Sebia per article 31, 93 of the Serbia-US Convention for the Avoidance of Double Taxation of 2009."

Part III
write nothing

Part IV
sign & date & write "Self" on the dotted lines on the right.



I found the exact articles for serbia so this should be the correct information


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## Phil Garbutt (Mar 1, 2014)

a little addition, for ascap or BMI (I'm with BMI) you must absolutely get your documents certified conform by an official entity (US embassy etc) for all documents including your ID card or passport, if not the IRS will send you a letter telling you to do it & so wasting 6 months. Good luck


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## Arbee (Mar 1, 2014)

Waywyn @ Thu Feb 27 said:


> I mentioned it before but think of a scientist trying to explain a girl what he feels for her. We as composers (being scientists in a sense) try to write a well crafted piece by applying all the knowledge we have.
> 
> So this scientist explains how all his hormones rush through whatever parts of his body while he tries to perfectly explain the exact biochemistry of what is going on and how the girl should react to these processes.
> 
> ...


That, is one of the best analogies I've ever heard to describe this rather mysterious process we undertake.

.


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## MichaelL (Mar 2, 2014)

I just want to throw another concept into the mix. Unless, you are working on a "work for hire" basis, or you are a "staff" writer, you aren't really working for libraries, you are working for _yourself_.

That sounds very simple and obvious. But, it really means that you need to approach writing library music as a business, not just a creative whim. 

You need learn to write past your prejudices, otherwise, you may not be casting a very wide net. 

You have write even when you don't feel like it. It's your job and you have to go to work every day. 

Take the extra time to do quality work. By that, I do not mean writing self-serving intellectual music. I mean:
1) take the time to make your virtual interments sound as real and alive as they can.
2) take the time to develop your own sound, rather than merely copying someone else's...even if you are writing in a "style." 

My 2 cents.


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## gsilbers (Mar 2, 2014)

Peter M. @ Wed Feb 26 said:


> I hate to bother you again guys, but I'm in need of a little bit more help. I contacted BMI, and they said it shouldn't be a problem for me to join them, and they sent me some documents. Now, before I send them in, I was wondering if there is someone who is on BMI as a foreign citizen that could help me with filling out tax W-8BEN form? I don't want to send it in wrong, and I'm not entirely sure what all of the data asked of me exactly is.



here in the USA, if i sign with bmi i still get foriegn royalties via bmis partner ships.. isnt the same for you guys outside the usa? (your pro will have a connection wiht bmi/ascap)


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## Phil Garbutt (Mar 2, 2014)

that is indeed true but, for various reasons, one may not want to be the the PRO in one's own country & so alternative ways are open to everyone.


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## Daryl (Mar 2, 2014)

MichaelL @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> I just want to throw another concept into the mix. Unless, you are working on a "work for hire" basis, or you are a "staff" writer, you aren't really working for libraries, you are working for _yourself_.
> 
> That sounds very simple and obvious. But, it really means that you need to approach writing library music as a business, not just a creative whim.


I think that is something a lot of composers really don't get. They are so wrapped up in their own little world, where people should pay them to do exactly what they want, that they forget that the bottom line is that it is a business. That doesn't mean that ones music should have no artistic merit, but the end user and income stream should be bourne in mind.

D


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## rpaillot (Mar 2, 2014)

Phil Garbutt @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> that is indeed true but, for *no* reasons, one may not want to be the the PRO in one's own country & so alternative ways are open to everyone.




:D


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## Peter M. (Mar 2, 2014)

gsilbers @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> Peter M. @ Wed Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to bother you again guys, but I'm in need of a little bit more help. I contacted BMI, and they said it shouldn't be a problem for me to join them, and they sent me some documents. Now, before I send them in, I was wondering if there is someone who is on BMI as a foreign citizen that could help me with filling out tax W-8BEN form? I don't want to send it in wrong, and I'm not entirely sure what all of the data asked of me exactly is.
> ...



Here in Serbia our PRO (Sokoj) literally does nothing for the artists. You see very little if any money from your works, and they are really behind concerning the whole world wide tracking and all. Just a terrible, terrible company.


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## MichaelL (Mar 2, 2014)

Daryl @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> That doesn't mean that ones music should have no artistic merit, but the end user and income stream should be bourne in mind.
> 
> D




I agree Daryl, and I wish every opportunity required artistic merit. More often, I think water seeks its own level. 

When we were selling our house, a friend of ours from the UK said not to worry, "there's an arse for every seat." In our business, it may be that there's a matched production for every cue, on some level. After all, the music for the "Real Housewives of ...fill in the blank," has to come from somewhere. 

Michael


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## chillbot (Mar 2, 2014)

MichaelL @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> After all, the music for the "Real Housewives of ...fill in the blank," has to come from somewhere.



It does. :oops: And it paid me $978 last quarter...


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## Generdyn (Mar 2, 2014)

Yeah would encourage you to do your own sound design and pretty much make as much as you can get away with from scratch. Helps find your sound and makes you sound unique and sets you apart.


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## MichaelL (Mar 3, 2014)

chillbot @ Sun Mar 02 said:


> MichaelL @ Sun Mar 02 said:
> 
> 
> > After all, the music for the "Real Housewives of ...fill in the blank," has to come from somewhere.
> ...




:lol: Chillbot. Great for you! My point exactly...no criticism, at all. And no need for the embarrassed emoticon. Music is required at both ends of the spectrum, and everywhere in between. And....it is part of an overall revenue stream. 

I was in a highbrow shop once...the retail store for a well known music publisher (a lot of classical music) buying manuscript paper. I got into a conversation with the clerk about what I do (media composer) and he started up with composer "attitude" ...not real music blah blah blah. I thought hmmm, "I'm getting paid to write music and he's getting paid to ring it up." There's something self-defeating about writing only for one's ego. The was 20 years ago, and I'm quite sure that he's still behind the register, or teaching somewhere, or working in a completely unrelated field. All of that is fine, of course, as long as the only that you need to feed is your ego. :wink:


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## rgames (Mar 3, 2014)

MichaelL @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> "I'm getting paid to write music and he's getting paid to ring it up."


Isn't that just another form of ego?

Some guys want to make money and some guys want to make history. Ego drives both pursuits.

rgames


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## MichaelL (Mar 3, 2014)

rgames @ Mon Mar 03 said:


> [
> Some guys want to make money and some guys want to make history. Ego drives both pursuits.
> 
> rgames



Not really Richard. If you're just trying to keep a roof over your and and put food on the table, ego has very little to do with it.

If you need the external validation of a Beemer or the right zip code, yeah, it 's ego.


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## chillbot (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm not really embarrassed... and I do get your point. Also I've written music for *much* more embarrassing shows that I wouldn't mention.

Working for library companies you have zero control where your music goes, and how it's used... and how brutally it's butchered by an editor... but fortunately it's usually mixed so low you can't hear it anyway. You better NOT have an ego. (Reminds me of the restaurant complaint, the food sucks... and the portions are too small!)

I only mentioned a dollar amount in the context of it does at up. I write for ONE of the library companies that happens to get music in ONE of the "real housewives of..." shows. I checked my statement and I had roughly 3-4 minutes of music per episode for that quarter. Not much... but a few dozen more shows like that and you're in business...


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