# Has Linux lost the plot or is Windows 10 just to accessible



## novaburst (Apr 23, 2020)

i would have thought Linux would be doing much better to make there software moremain stream, but the open Source and cummunity seems to have taken a much better liking to windows, 

Even Apple seem to be under the spell of windows, i recently installed Windows 10 on my server and it seems to me appart from the wind up updates that can be stopped Windows 10 seems to be a great OS. to the point all window 7 and even XP drivers and programs work with out issues. 

But is windows tiles and colorful looks just a big disguise from what you can do with it under the hood, is windows becoming like Linux and the more prefered OS for coders, has windows won over the Linux cummunity.

Big changes for Windows, very little for Linux so is Linux losing ground.


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## d.healey (Apr 23, 2020)

Depending on the GNU/Linux distro you use there is generally far more software choice than there is on Windows or Mac. I don't just mean native apps, thanks to WINE it is possible to run most Windows apps flawlessly on GNU, although some forms of DRM still seem to be impossible to use (iLok for example). Windows has started to implement a Linux subsystem so I think it might be possible to run some Linux apps on Windows now too...

As far as audio apps go there are several native DAWs including Bitwig, Reaper, Ardour, Muse, Rosegarden, Qtraction, Zrythm. Tons of native plugins too and most Windows plugins can run using LinVST or Carla (assuming they don't require the aforementioned DRM). GNU/Linux DAWs can also use LV2 and Ladspa plugins, something you can't do on Windows or Mac as far as I'm aware.

If you're a gamer then there is a native Steam app with its own built in version of WINE which handles setting up Windows games really smoothly. There is also PlayOnLinux which, like Steam's compatibility tool, takes some of the hassle out of setting up Windows apps on GNU/Linux.

I think it's a myth that GNU/Linux was ever the preferred OS for coders, Windows app coders have always leaned towards Windows and Mac coders have always leaned towards MacOS - you generally have to compile on the OS you are writing for anyway, unless you're using a tool that allows cross-compiling.


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## wst3 (Apr 23, 2020)

Excellent post, I agree with most of it, but do have to take exception to that last bit:


d.healey said:


> <snip>I think it's a myth that GNU/Linux was ever the preferred OS for coders<snipped again>


It could be the era in which I came up through the ranks, but Unix/Linux was far and away the preferred development environment for most embedded systems and most large scale systems.

There are now Windows based embedded environments, and large scale servers, but that was not always the case, and I think one of the reasons that Windows took a while to gain their foothold was that Unix/Linux really was a more friendly development environment. You didn't need a GUI, you could do everything in a command line environment, and if you were a real geek you could do everything within emacs<G>!

All the tools were there to let you build your own tools. Utilities like AWK, SED, and GREP made programming so much easier. At least the kinds of programs that I worked on. You could prototype in a scripting (interpreted) environment and then easily port it over to a compiled environment. The debuggers were very flexible, and you can't beat MAKE to manage compilation.

All of that has changed. Both Windows and Mac OS have adopted most of the things that I liked about programming in a Unix environment. The differences are dwindling. But for a while I think the majority of projects, and programmers preferred Unix, and later Linux.

Me? I got out of that game a long time ago, and I am far too old (and lazy) to learn something new. When I need to do something programmatically I lean towards tools like PERL, Python, and lately LUA which run on all the platforms. And usually I try to pull a Huck Finn and get a co-worker to do the coding<G>.


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## novaburst (Apr 24, 2020)

d.healey said:


> As far as audio apps go there are several native DAWs including Bitwig, Reaper, Ardour, Muse, Rosegarden, Qtraction, Zrythm. Tons of native plugins too and most Windows plugins can run using LinVST or Carla (assuming they don't require the aforementioned DRM).



I think its this that tells me there has been not alot of progress with Linux for main stream DAWs and VSTs are still very far away from a Linux app and if you can some how get a VST working on Linux there can be some things on that VST that want function, 

I would have at least thought in this day and age Linux would have broken through this phaze or at least be a contender with Mac and Windows and Developers of today would be welcoming Linux into its line of OS to develop for, Reaper is pretty big, FL studio is kind of main stream, Bitwig is becoming a well known DAW so why do DAWs like Cubase, VEpro Studio one, Logic, Pro Tools why are they staying clear of Linux,


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## d.healey (Apr 24, 2020)

wst3 said:


> It could be the era in which I came up through the ranks, but Unix/Linux was far and away the preferred development environment for most embedded systems and most large scale systems.


Yes you're right, I was really just thinking about user apps and games, but with embedded and server side software I'm sure GNU/Linux is/was the preferred choice.



novaburst said:


> why are they staying clear of Linux,



I think a lot of developers see GNU/Linux as a tiny market and not worth the time investing the resources in. If you've built a large program that runs on Windows then it's likely going to be using a lot of Windows only libraries, drivers, and resources. To port it to another OS will require a lot of work. Pro-Tools and Cubase have really old codebases so I can imagine it would not be a trivial task to make them run natively on another OS. They also have DRM systems that, as far as I know, aren't compatible with GNU/Linux.

Logic Pro only runs on MacOS so I don't think there is any question about why it doesn't support GNU.


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## TGV (Apr 24, 2020)

d.healey said:


> there is generally far more software choice than there is on Windows or Mac


But not as convenient, reliable, usable, and accessible. Linux is simply not suitable for the desktop for users without considerable IT skills. Steam might be the only thing I know that comes close to a consumer product, and that probably only exists because Valve wanted to make a Linux-based game console.


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## d.healey (Apr 24, 2020)

TGV said:


> But not as convenient, reliable, usable, and accessible.


It depends on your needs. If you want to browse the web then you have all the same third-party browsers as Windows/MacOS. If you want VOIP you can use Skype, Discord, Mumble, etc. There are email clients such as Thunderbird, media players like VLC. If you're a hardcore gamer though, Windows is probably the best choice.

Depending on the distro there is likely an "app store" type program pre-installed so you can find/install/remove software easily.

A lot of people seem to think if you use GNU then you're going to be in the CLI all the time, but that's not necessary with a modern desktop environment. I hardly touch the console except for batch operations or accessing git (but that's only because I prefer the CLI for those tasks), I also do the same when I use Windows or MacOS.

When I started using GNU as my main system I realized that almost every app I was using on Windows was already available natively. The only programs I have had to run in WINE are Kontakt, AriaPlayer, and Sfzorzando. But as always it depends on what you need as to which OS is the best practical choice for you.


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## TGV (Apr 24, 2020)

For pure browsing it is good enough: see ChromeOS. And it isn't the kernel, i.e. Linux proper, since that underpins Android (and macOS, although that strictly speaking is some form of BSD). But it's the big names like Word, Excel, Photoshop, Premiere, (and indeed GarageBand, Logic and Cubase) and the myriad of other smaller, but polished tools that keep people on Windows or macOS.

I use a cheap graphic tool, Pixelmator, and it works better than Photoshop for me, but nobody will make something like it for Linux, because (a) there's no market, and (b) there's no comparable tooling. Until some huge corp throws its weight behind Linux and starts building user oriented development tools and create a paying user market, it will stay like that.

For servers, Linux is excellent. Wouldn't have it any other way. Docker on the mac is a bit of a PITA, but on Linux it runs like a champ. Databases idem. And to run services on Windows you have to be a masochist.


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## RogiervG (Jun 17, 2020)

TGV said:


> For pure browsing it is good enough: see ChromeOS. And it isn't the kernel, i.e. Linux proper, since that underpins Android (and macOS, although that strictly speaking is some form of BSD). But it's the big names like Word, Excel, Photoshop, Premiere, (and indeed GarageBand, Logic and Cubase) and the myriad of other smaller, but polished tools that keep people on Windows or macOS.
> 
> I use a cheap graphic tool, Pixelmator, and it works better than Photoshop for me, but nobody will make something like it for Linux, because (a) there's no market, and (b) there's no comparable tooling. Until some huge corp throws its weight behind Linux and starts building user oriented development tools and create a paying user market, it will stay like that.
> 
> For servers, Linux is excellent. Wouldn't have it any other way. Docker on the mac is a bit of a PITA, but on Linux it runs like a champ. Databases idem. And to run services on Windows you have to be a masochist.


. most cross platform (incl. office geared) tools run smoother and have less crashes on linux than on windows or mac. also as others said, it about the needs you have. e.g. are you sold into a piece of software, and its not svailable on the other os? then stay where you are. there is a big multi billion market on the linux platform, but its not (currently) in the creativity software corner. it will also come in time, slowly. the other software sectors are very well supported though. and as you said, servers are its top sector of software. i run linux distros as desktops and have lesser problems with wanted software than a few years back. there IS a lot of progress made in a few years! but there is not much marketing, so it might stay unnoticed by the majority. in some creativity software you do see change.. e.g. the steinberg vst sdk is now officially supporting linux, cockos reaper supports linux, u-he has linux versions of their plugins, etc etc.. the first commercial linux supporting steps are there..its just waiting for the rest to follow.


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## tack (Jun 17, 2020)

poetd said:


> I work Infrastructure Support and DevOps and use numerous OS's every day, and just see them as tools.


I do infrastructure too and would sooner pound a rusty nail through my big toe than use Windows for any of that. My department runs dozens of my company's services in prod (hundreds, if you count microservices) and those few that are built on top of Windows are always more expensive, and much harder to automate and support than their Linux counterparts.

Kubernetes is admittedly making things tolerable in the Windows space, but if you squint to bring it all into focus, it's only really accomplishing that by making Windows work more like Linux.


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## rgames (Jun 17, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Yes you're right, I was really just thinking about user apps and games, but with embedded and server side software I'm sure GNU/Linux is/was the preferred choice.


Also, I've never seen any high-performance computing (HPC) done on anything other than Linux. If you're doing massively parallel computations with thousands of CPUs, you're running Linux.

Then you transfer the results onto a Windows machine to make slides in PowerPoint.

rgames


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## Technostica (Jun 18, 2020)

rgames said:


> Also, I've never seen any high-performance computing (HPC) done on anything other than Linux. If you're doing massively parallel computations with thousands of CPUs, you're running Linux.


Windows is a closed system so you’d have to pay MS to create a custom version.
Plus, the infrastructure is there for Linux, whereas you’d have to invest the time and money in Windows.
I think MS use Linux for some of their online services as even they recognise its limitations.


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## telecode101 (Jun 18, 2020)

..


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## d.healey (Jun 18, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> people who need to download and install full fledged fat clients for MS Teams, Skype and Zoom at home. There is no fuggin IT support group that is going to want to support that on WINE.


Teams, Skype, and Zoom are all available natively for GNU/Linux. I haven't used Zoom but I've been using Skype for years on GNU/Linux and Windows before that. The program is identical on both platforms as it's created using Electron which is cross platform, I assume Zoom is using similar technology.



> Not many do. I only know of Bitwig and never used it.


Reaper too.


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## Symfoniq (Jun 18, 2020)

There are more Linux than Windows server instances running on Microsoft's own cloud platform, Azure. Linux won the infrastructure wars, and even Microsoft has decided to embrace it rather than fight it.

The desktop is a different ballgame, and I don't think the fabled "year of the Linux desktop" is ever going to happen. I do use Linux desktops for certain kinds of development work, but this is in spite of the user experience, not because of it. MacOS and Windows are still better daily drivers.


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## RogiervG (Jun 18, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> it all depends what you do. generally, the dream of Linux (meaning Gnome or KDE) to replace regular regular Windows and Mac desktops is pretty much dead. The last 10+ years of integration of mobile services, social media, cloud services pretty much killed that in the water. For general computer users, the importance of integrating your logins with web based mail, various app stores, photo backup repos, and slew of other conveniences is what will tie you to Microsoft or Apple.



Wait what? No no no... it's not killed, there is an actual improve of users going Linux desktop. But it will remain a small number compared to Apple and Microsoft desktop use. 
Also social media and the likes did not killed linux desktop use as you say... at all.
Logins are stored the same way are on Windows or Mac, no differences there. And itegration is done within the media sites/apps, not outside of it, so not tied to any os.


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## telecode101 (Jun 18, 2020)

..


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## telecode101 (Jun 18, 2020)

..


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## RogiervG (Jun 18, 2020)

Still disagree about being dead...
Since you mention cloud.. it doesn't matter anymore what desktop/os you use as user. And the need for windows/mac reduces more and more. You have the common hurd of computer users.. not in the know how... and you have knowledgable users.. the latter prefers BSD/Linux above Windows.. And if Linux is not allowed at work, they want MacOS as "best" alternative for it.

Most developers and students prefer Linux even.. the latter is the future employee, so imagine how the near future looks like, when they get a say in what to run at the office.

you mention clouds and high availablity (enterprise grade)
In high availablitiy scenarios (including cloud), Linux and BSD both rule everything. They are just the biggest in OS use over there. Windows is just very very small. like the linux desktop usage is in the desktop domain.
Allmost ALL cloud architecture runs on BSD/Linux OS'es.. from core to highest layer of it. (Juniper routers = FreeBSD e.g.)
So those vendors LOVE Open source OS'es, they could not even exist without them! (it's true!)
Server software and tooling is Linux/BSD first, Windows second.. has always been the case, not changing any time soon.
Users want Linux/BSD too.. allmost every cloud provider has more Linux containers than windows containers by a huge margin.. 90 vs 10 percent along those lines, even AZURE (how ironical is that?!)

And i am familiair with HA environments at Provider levels. (and been in MANY datacenters)

So no.. i disagree that the cloud killed linux desktop usage at all..




telecode101 said:


> it doesn't matter. if i managed an IT support dept, i wouldn't give two hoots does it or does it not install and work on GNU/Linux. I would not be able to afford to have a support guy waste 1/2 a day troubleshooting that app on a Linux system. There are 1,000's of other tickets that are waiting.



IT support works with a fixed set of tools, (e.g. ticketing systems, CMDB's etc etc). they don't install anything on their workstations. They are preconfigged.. so that argument is non existent.
Secondly it would mean you are a windows manager.. which is fine... but restrictive too.
Many it managers are cross platform in their approach. Heck even platform agnositic by using webbased tooling as much as possible. Especially support depts.

You like windows on the desktop, have no interrest in Linux Desktops.. Fine.. no worries... i won't dislike you for it. I don't even hate windows, i see good things too.. Just as with MacOS.

But there is still a growing group of people, even in the pro desktop world, that prefer Linux Distro desktop use. Don't forget the majority of windows users, are having a big amount of inertia going on.
That makes switching difficult. They know what they know, they are scared for the unknown.
Also the marketing of Linux (as in distros) is very shallow.. barely existent.. and normal people are very sensitive for marketing. The more you hear about the wow factor, the amazement, the more people are getting interrested in researching it.. Also the special feeling helps here (Apple)

Luckely though, more and more people see the cons of either windows or macos, and their restrictive abilities, their costs, their awkward behaviors.. the dictator-like visions: they control your computer.. not you, they. But also security comes in mind.. the telemetrical stuff e.g. the weird settings per default.. or inability to disable some elements properly.

The internet is getting more and more vocal about these things.. and more and more Linux is being opted.. spoken of, and discussed.. Which is a good thing in the end.
Free marketing mouth to mouth.. user to user...
Also more and more commercial parties join the linux world with their products, e.g. gaming is gaining traction with ports to Linux or through means of e.g. wine preconfiggured for that application by the developers (it just works). Maya has a native Linux version, Substance painter (most used texturing tool) has native support, heck even the majority of Hollywood film industry runs Linux behind the scenes (not only renderfarms, but also workstations).


Future perspective:
All in all i hope the world becomes fully cross platform (the webbased world provides that!), heck even Autodesk is very busy porting their top product over to the web (Webassembly based): AutoCAD.
Making it useable on Linux, Mac, Windows without any problems. You only need a compatible browser and a good video card. (and steady fast-ish connection to the internet)
That way.. everybody is free to use whichever they like, for an OS.. the software ontop just works.


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## tomosane (Jun 18, 2020)

Anyone who is genuinely wondering about this question should read this:






Main Linux problems on the desktop, 2023 edition or why Linux sucks on the desktop







itvision.altervista.org





I've actively used different variants of Linux (and at times FreeBSD/OpenBSD) for very specific data-related tasks for over 20 years now, but at this point it looks to me like that's the extent these OS's will ever reach as far as my needs are concerned

I gave a very serious shot at desktop Linux around 2002 and it was just a complete clusterfuck. I *could* make some distributions work fairly decently with the (at the time fairly standard) hardware I had, but after a couple months of active use I basically just found out that you need to constantly fight against updates that mysteriously break stuff, be it related to hardware compatibility or just standard software bugs.

I've never tried to do any real audio work on Linux, that will very obviously never be viable, what I'm talking about above is strictly related to "basic" use like an explorer program, a music player etc. Desktop Linux *is* of course usable in this extent (and possibly beyond) for people who like to spend a nontrivial part of their working day always resolving techical issues. But this obviously this group of people will always be a tiny minority of PC users


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## Rory (Jun 18, 2020)

telecode101 said:


> consumer level computing for every day joe has become more focused on mobile phones and basically apple and google and telcol's monopolize that sector.



That pretty much hits the nail on the head. I know people who have a desktop computer, but at this point never use it. They use smartphones and tablets exclusively.

In retrospect, it's pretty funny that Steve Jobs was derided over both the iPhone and the iPad 

I had Arch Linux on a spare laptop for several years. It was a great way to learn about computing and operating systems, and I would encourage others to do the same. I still use macOS terminal occasionally, just to maintain the skills and because I like to be reminded of what's behind the graphic user interface. It's pretty cool that terminal can do a lot of things faster, sometimes much faster. But Linux for day to day life?

I just had a look at what's involved in using Linux on a smartphone or a tablet. You have to be 16 and really into computers, or have a lot of time on your hands.


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## telecode101 (Jun 18, 2020)

..


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## RogiervG (Jun 19, 2020)

For day to day work, linux desktops does it well. (mail, textprocessing, websurfing...etc etc)

There is (very good) stuff, but not that much to choose from in contrast tot macos and windows.



For creativity:
barely no high end sample libraries.
but some sampler plugins, a bunch of daws (commercial and free)..
Lots of synth, effects plugins etc etc.
a few video/audio/photo editors
some 2d drawing and 2/3d animation/modelling/rendering tools.
etc...

Entertainment:
a few thousand native games and few hundred via wine like systems.

mobility:
smartphones works in most cases fine.. with transfering data/synching.
cloud works allmost in all cases too...



so yeah, depending on the exact needs..it suits good or not..

too bad it's a chicken, egg problem mostly..

commercial developer not providing enough linux support because of low usage on the desktop
vs
linux desktop not adopted enough by the masses because of not enough commercial support by developers for their wanted software. (i want my adobe suite... i want <fill in blank>)

One of the sides should step up.. the other will follow. (breaching chicken/egg problem)


I use both Linux Desktops and Windows desktops.. Windows only if Linux is no option.
E.g. certain specific games just won't run on linux at this point in time.. while others works fine.
also i run windows to support some people.
So my usage is approx. 75% linux Desktop and 25% windows on a monthly base (private use). but i see a slow raise in linux usage looking back at a year ago... it was more 65% linux usage on the desktop.
All my servers run Linux distro's.. though...

unfortunately at my current job, the desktops are only windows...  (because of inertia mostly and high priced licenses)
my job before that (at an ISP/hosting provider) we could use whatever we wanted, as long as we were not hindered in our duties. (And you guessed it, majority of employees, incl myself, ran Linux distros we liked.. some Ubuntu, some Slackware, some debian, some arch etc etc)


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## d.healey (Jun 19, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> barely no high end sample libraries.


Kontakt 5 runs fine with WINE and LinVST (I haven't tried K6). The tricky thing is Native Access.


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## RogiervG (Jun 19, 2020)

true.. but i was talking about libraries for samplers running natively on linux distro's.
the wine approach might work indeed.. but is flaky too..


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## d.healey (Jun 19, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> wine approach might work indeed.. but is flaky too..


It is? Been working without a hitch for me for years.


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## RogiervG (Jun 19, 2020)

in general wine is crashy software, that is very picky about it's configs. it leads often to sudden weirdness in software running with wine. One version of wine works, the other doesn't.(within the same branch). etc..
maybe Kontakt is the exception here?


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## d.healey (Jun 19, 2020)

RogiervG said:


> in general wine is crashy software, that is very picky about it's configs. it leads often to sudden weirdness in software running with wine. One version of wine works, the other doesn't.(within the same branch). etc..
> maybe Kontakt is the exception here?


I use PlayOnLinux so everything I install is sandboxed in its own WINE prefix. This means each app can use whatever WINE settings it needs without affecting other apps. Steam does a similar thing with its built in compatibility tool.


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## RogiervG (Jun 19, 2020)

Oh right, i forgot about wine supports prefixes..  thanks for remembering me.
(i don't use wine that often anymore) 

maybe i need to redo the kontakt with wine approach sometime soon.


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## jblongz (Nov 26, 2022)

Sorry to reinfect this thread, but I'm revisiting the plight of Linux. I'm running a few multi boot machines and have tried several Linux distros (thanks to the ease of Ventoy for quickly installing distress to several partitions. The two most popular versions I found for creative work are Linux AV MX21 and Pop!OS. MX21 is pretty much an audio/video pro version of Linux out of the box, but requirements some intermediate familiarity with the OS. UI is not so great, especially at 4k. 

Pop!OS, a build on Ubuntu, is quite impressive. It feels very similar to MacOS, and supports Nvidia drivers. I've been using Bitwig 4 with it (I have it sharing the same library with Win11). There were some challenges understanding the different options of audio drivers, but I managed to get my head around the basics of Pulse Audio. Prior to Bitwig, I would probably not have considered Linux for music. It has been my platform for Blender because Windows just needs too much tweaking to reduce background processes. Now a fully featured DAW takes advantage of this.

Another challenge I had was CPUs automatic governance to increase power efficiency. I had to install a free app (from the OS appStore) to force the CPU to constant power mode while using music software. As for gettin Windows VSTs via YaBridge, I did not try yet.

Linux is still not popular as it could be, but a LOT of progress has been made with Pop, Ubuntu, and Fedora for the general public. With the future of CLAP standard in development, we may see a more viable path for general creative work over the next decade. Video and photo editing apps still have a long way to go. There is no comparison to Adobe or Serif offerings. As for audio, Bitwig and U-He have set a new bar.


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## Arbee (Nov 26, 2022)

As a UNIX stalwart from way back I've been longing for Linux to become more pervasive in the consumer market but Windows "got there in the end". I won't say anything about Mac OS other than to say it used to frustrate the hell out of me when clients would say "if you can program it to run on Windows, surely you make it work on the vastly superior Mac OS", followed by me trying to explain how you can put a lawnmower engine in a Ferrari but it's still a lawnmower engine....


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## Ambrose Luxor (Dec 9, 2022)

Was there ever a plot? I think Linux and its attendant ecosystem of apps and hardware drivers have at least accomplished what must have been the early goal of providing a free, open-source alternative to Unix -- and one that could run on desktop PCs instead of data-center hardware (but not necessarily to run common desktop apps).

Three decades later, Linux distros are perfectly usable for mainstream desktop purposes.

But (as some kind of promotion or lack of it seems to be implied in the OP) how much time and money should Linux-world devs and advocates put into promoting greater usage of Linux (and for what or whose benefit?), and where would that time and money come from?

Linux on the desktop has found and continues to find its place in a Darwinian way. Maybe the next big data breach at Google, Microsoft, or Apple could provoke more people to consider Linux for their old-school desktop PCs or laptops? 

P.S. -- People using maxed-out hardware for music production (not to mention additional networked computers acting as sample-library servers) should not necessarily be considered mainstream users.


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## novaburst (Dec 9, 2022)

With the CPU core count and now DDR 5 and more benefits that hard ware has to offer I think it is making it mor and more difficult for Linux to keep up, 

As the window and MAC OS seemed to have nailed it in these areas

But with what it seems more and more restrictions with the latest OS it is becoming a big turn off


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## d.healey (Dec 9, 2022)

novaburst said:


> With the CPU core count and now DDR 5 and more benefits that hard ware has to offer I think it is making it mor and more difficult for Linux to keep up,


GNU/Linux can use DDR5 and plenty of cores no issue. I've been using an Alder Lake chip on my system since they were released and an AMD 5900x before that.


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## David Cuny (Dec 9, 2022)

Half my family uses Chromebooks. They only use Windows for printing, since Cloudprint was dropped a while ago.

Hrm... looks like Chromebooks work with WiFi enabled printers. I should check that out some time.


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## novaburst (Dec 10, 2022)

d.healey said:


> GNU/Linux can use DDR5 and plenty of cores no issue. I've been using an Alder Lake chip on my system since they were released and an AMD 5900x before that.


Well i am wanting Linux to gain ground and also do well, simply because it would be nice to jump when Windows 11 and MAC get so restrictive that they have no point in using, 

At the moment Linux is not on par with Windows and MAC but hearing from you seems to be gaining ground that is a good thing.

But will this be the same old story when Linux gets the best of every thing will they to become a restrictive OS just like the rest


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## d.healey (Dec 10, 2022)

novaburst said:


> At the moment Linux is not on par with Windows and MAC


In what sense? Which distro?



novaburst said:


> But will this be the same old story when Linux gets the best of every thing will they to become a restrictive OS just like the rest


The reason GNU/Linux exists is to provide a free (as in freedom) alternative to proprietary operating systems. It is released under the GNU GPL which makes it almost impossible for it to ever become proprietary - although most distros include proprietary components such as drivers, but that's more the fault of hardware manufacturers and complacent users than distro maintainers.


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## Ambrose Luxor (Dec 10, 2022)

novaburst said:


> Well i am wanting Linux to gain ground and also do well, simply because it would be nice to jump when Windows 11 and MAC get so restrictive that they have no point in using,
> 
> At the moment Linux is not on par with Windows and MAC but hearing from you seems to be gaining ground that is a good thing.
> 
> But will this be the same old story when Linux gets the best of every thing will they to become a restrictive OS just like the rest


I'm also heading that way. By the time Windows 10 reaches EOL for support in October, 2025, I plan to leave Windows behind completely. I might do that much sooner than 2025.

Recently I reinstalled Win 10 on a dual-boot system. The setup process was so much more intrusive and condescending in tone than any of the Linux installers I have used. Luckily my homebuilt tower doesn't have the right specs to run Windows 11.

For a small number of Windows apps and plugins that don't quite have a Linux equivalent I need to do some more research to see if I can get those apps working on Linux using WINE.

But if I have to leave a few things behind with Windows, so be it. C'est la vie.


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## zzz00m (Dec 10, 2022)

novaburst said:


> Well i am wanting Linux to gain ground and also do well, simply because it would be nice to jump when Windows 11 and MAC get so restrictive that they have no point in using,
> 
> At the moment Linux is not on par with Windows and MAC but hearing from you seems to be gaining ground that is a good thing.
> 
> But will this be the same old story when Linux gets the best of every thing will they to become a restrictive OS just like the rest


I have been a Linux user for many years alongside my Windows machines, using Linux standalone, dual-boot and VM configurations. Like many others, I would welcome a robust, stable desktop Linux application ecosystem as a viable alternative to the Microsoft and Apple OS domination.

But the biggest obstacle I see for that to ever become a reality is that Windows and Mac are proprietary platforms that belong to those two companies who decide what they will become.

Linux is open-source and belongs to no one and everyone, so there will never be a "they" or "them" to make it a restrictive OS. Plus Linux is made up of many components, or layers. The Linux OS kernel is maintained by one group. The various Linux desktop environments (Gnome, Ubuntu, Mate, etc.) are maintained by others. So there isn't actually just a monolithic "Linux" OS. The distributions (software packages, such as Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, etc.) are all independently supported.

https://www.getgnulinux.org/en/linux/



> _The accurate name is GNU/Linux but "Linux" is used more often.
> 
> GNU/Linux is not one company's product, but a number of companies and groups of people contribute to it. In fact, the GNU/Linux system is a core component, which is branched off into many different products. They are called *distributions*._



Therefore there can never be an overall corporate strategic plot to overcome Windows or Mac. So as far as a commercial desktop software marketplace for Linux exists, it is totally fragmented and up to each individual developer or software publisher to decide how much in the way of resources to devote to Linux, or if it is even viable for them. At this point desktop Linux is still a very small market, so any commercial developers who embrace it are clearly pioneers willing to take a risk.

So it's likely to be a long, organic, Darwinian path forward for desktop Linux. That's pretty much how it always has been. You have more options now than when this thread was started well over 2 years ago.


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## JSTube (Dec 13, 2022)

Linux is the land of perpetually unfulfilled promises. I have a lot to say on the topic of Linux in general, having just wasted a good 12-15 years waiting for it to become something a creative person could reasonably use, provided they were willing learn the prerequisite computer skills.

Today, I'm using macs only, still having all the benefits of my shell scripting, programs like Vim, package managers (homebrew) etc etc!

Linux is for companies who can pay to hire programmers to fill in whatever deficit exists holding back company fluidity. That's it. I'm so tired of the notion of Linux as a usable desktop. I was here WAY BACK in the Gnome 2 days and I HAVE to say EMPHATICALLY that desktop Linux has become a LOT worse. How does 5 non-working audio stacks in 2022 compare to 2 non working audio stacks 10 years ago??

You want to know where companies like Korg et al spend their money even though they're basing their "workstations'" operating systems on Fedora/RHEL?

It's on basic audio stacks. Basic stuff that normal-people targeted operating systems have had working for well over 25 years.

Fellow FOSS advocates: Keep waiting, I tapped out of the race having waited too long for working software. I became addicted to Linux in 7th grade, and 12 years of 'maybe someday' was enough waiting for things to work for me to throw in the towel.

Linux and opensource in general is a toxic ideology perpetuated mostly by people who don't have legitimate software tasks to achieve to begin with.

OMG BRO FIREFOX ESR ACTUALLY OPENS!!! -- cool!



d.healey said:


> Kontakt 5 runs fine with WINE and LinVST (I haven't tried K6). The tricky thing is Native Access.


Typical comment by someone who ran one program one time in WINE. 

Nothing works in WINE twice. Sorry, but it's just the truth. 

Again, typical linux story .. 'OMG BRO IT LAUNCHED!!!' -- and the launch was so incredible that the occasion had to be documented with a forum post posted before the 2nd attempt to launch -- which invariably always fails -- could be discovered.


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## Øivind (Dec 14, 2022)

Long post incomming!
I tested the Linux audio waters a few months ago, it worked surprisingly well. I did not have any Linux experience prior to this, other than testing it out a few years ago with a few games. It did take a while to get everything up and running because it´s a new OS to learn and you are forcing it into using programs for a different OS and I had no idea what I was doing XD

Now the main reason I tested out Linux was that the GPU I have has issues with Windows 11 and real-time audio. It´s a fluke that most likely is not going to happen to anyone else, but I can´t use the GPU and make audio on Win11. Win10 works fine, Linux under multiple distros work fine. I have tested and reinstalled Widows 10 and 11 multiple times, the exact same problem occurs only under Windows 11.

These are just plugins I owned and tested/used under Linux Mint.

*Hardware: *
Core i9-9900k
AMD Radeon 5600XT
RME UFX II (in CC mode)

*Windows VST plug-ins that work with Wine + Yabridge:*
Fabfilter, Voxengo TEOTE, Youlean Loudness Meter, Scaler 2 (worked good enough), Native Access v1.x, (2.x did not work), Kontakt 6.x, Melda Free Bundle, Valhalla, Arturia Pigments 3, Klanghelm VUMTdeluxe (might also need vst2 to be installed).

I also managed to get Best Service Engine 2 (with authentication) working. Tested with
Dark Era, ERA II and Ancient Era Persia. This was a bit of trial and error as the authentication system requires some old 32bit dependencies or something to work.

*Native Linux plugins and DAWs:*
Reaper, BitWig, Pianoteq, Vital, U-he, Surge, TAL, Speedrum, Sitala, Carla, Bertom - Denoiser, Panagement, Sonarworks Refference 4 (linux beta which is no longer in development afaik). There are lots more great native linux plug-ins and audio software, these are just the ones I use.

Overall I had no issues using any of these plugins and the performance was good as well. The hardest part was actually turning Linux Mint into a distro that was optimized for Low Latency audio. How the Audio system works, ALSA vs Jack vs PulseAudio vs Pipewire is something that is fairly complex to wrap the brain around, at least for me. However, when Pipewire gets more integration, it will be way easier to understand. But I managed to get it to work. The actual Wine + Yabridge stuff (to get Windows VSTs to function) was the easiest part of everything.

I did however change back to Windows 10 for 2 reasons. Reason 1 was that I needed Steinberg Spectralayers to do some work I got (detailed graphical spectral editing), which does not have any alternatives, not even on Windows or Mac that I know of.

Reason 2 was because I need to use Blender (native, free, open source) for 3D modeling and rendering. And while Blender works perfectly, maybe even better on Linux than on Windows and Mac, the graphics card (that damn card XD) I have is/was in sort of a limbo state when it comes to Blender, and the Kernel for most Linux distros did not have the specific AMD driver available that enabled HIP in Blender.

Video editing worked fine as well with Davinci Resolve (native, free) and Kdenlive (native, free, open source).
I use Krita (native, free, open source) for drawing with a Wacom tablet and that worked perfect as well. Unity (native) and Fmod (native) work great, VScodium (native) etc. Gaming on Linux has become pretty good as well. With Steam and Proton and so many indie games now actually making native Linux builds, I had a great time on Linux.

I will most likely jump back over to Linux again later.


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## ssnowe (Dec 14, 2022)

I'm a huge fan of Linux servers and desktop (use desktop everyday for work) and it has been bulletrproof and advertising/tracking free. The customization options are pretty much limitless and only constrained by user expertise. I would use it for anything and everything if I could.

My sticking point is Wine as I don't want to use anything related to Windows. If I'm working in Linux I want the software to be Linux native. Using Wine with something like Kontakt is obvioulsly workable but I don't want to go there. That's why when I see a program such as MuseScore 4 coming out I'm excited as it is native to Linux.


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## Ambrose Luxor (Dec 14, 2022)

ssnowe said:


> That's why when I see a program such as MuseScore 4 coming out I'm excited as it is native to Linux.


Speaking of which: if anyone is using an Arch-based distro, Muse Hub is available from the AUR as muse-hub-bin.

Edit: And today (Dec 15th), Musescore 4.0-1 is available in the Arch Community repo.


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## JSTube (Dec 15, 2022)

ssnowe said:


> I'm a huge fan of Linux servers and desktop (use desktop everyday for work) and it has been bulletrproof and advertising/tracking free. The customization options are pretty much limitless and only constrained by user expertise. I would use it for anything and everything if I could.
> 
> My sticking point is Wine as I don't want to use anything related to Windows. If I'm working in Linux I want the software to be Linux native. Using Wine with something like Kontakt is obvioulsly workable but I don't want to go there. That's why when I see a program such as MuseScore 4 coming out I'm excited as it is native to Linux.


MuseScore and Audacity just had a HUGE tracking/telemetry scandal, just fyi, and it spawned SEVERAL forks of both programs. The FOSS grass isn't any greener, it's more brittle, however.

I maintain that a completely web-based DAW and cloud plugin renting scheme ONLY would be the 1st and earliest usable music-maker setup that any professional would ever be able to rely on if using Linux.

Again, *omg, firefox works! That must make the rest of the system rock-solid and reliable and robust!* (I wish that were true).

P.S. Linux is not bad. Companies like Google actually were able to hire programmers to make up for all the deficits in ChromeOS. ChromeOS doesn't suck, because it was made not to suck. Pretty pitiful that the best, solid, and most reliable Linux distro is literally the Google one. (I guess it's open source??)

And you'll get a much better experience even running PARALLELS on ChromeOS and trying to do Windows VM audio production there vs these 'native linux' desires for no reason other than the sake of using Linux.

Also, to those implying that Linux just works flawlessly, you just need to be good enough at it: That's just not true. Maybe on a *BSD it is, but Linux is the shortest end of the *nix stick, and really _only exists_ because the BSDs were lawsuit-encumbered at the time Linux soared in popularity, so corporations had no other alternative that was as cost-effective.

I'm not saying BSD is any better. I think FOSS software in general is a toxic ideological battle, and that normal computer users who rely on proprietary software every day have no dog in the fight -- the money talks, and besides using a paid OS, you have to pay the programmers just to bring something as ""robust and stable"" as Gentoo into the shape of ChromeOS.

You wanna bet on how many MILLIONS OF DOLLARS that took [to get Gentoo into the commercially viable ChromeOS]? When they have to pour so much time and money into it that it's not even recognizable anymore as a Linux desktop? I guess I can agree with that narrative. Linux is good, millions of corporate dollars and lines of code later.

But that still doesn't make it a viable desktop/production system in 2022. Unless you have Larry Ellison money and want to waste that on like, Ubuntu Studio or Fedora Jam this next Google Summer of Code -- go ahead. 10 consectutive GSoC's later and still it wouldn't be ready and therefore still nobody would be using it.

And this situation will remain the case as long as the only driving force behind a Linux audio workstation becomes "not using macOS/Windows."

Oh P.P.S.
*You can get a reliable robust Linux audio workstation already. It's called a KORG Keyboard. Does that mean anything to a FOSS-extremist? Nope.*


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