# How to study full scores from Ravel and Stravinsky effectively?



## gh0stwrit3r (Feb 19, 2020)

I finally bought the full scores Daphnis and Chloe from Ravel and The Rite of Springs from Stravinsky. Both scores are recommended by Conrad Pope to analyse and study to get a better understanding of orchestration, composing and theory.

But now I'm wondering: how do you effectively study these kind of scores? Is there a best practice? Does anyone of you have experiences with this?

Would love to get some tips and advise.


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## Jim Martin (Feb 19, 2020)

Good question, I've never done this either, but what does help me in my never ending journey is to listen to different compositions and then transcribe them bar by bar.


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## JohnG (Feb 19, 2020)

Hi there,

My own (lazy) approach is to look at a section here, a section there. You can spend a year (five?) on the Rite, and probably D&C as well, but unless you're writing a thesis for a degree, who has the patience and time to make a piano reduction of the whole thing?

I don't like to boil the ocean, so I listen to the music and pause when I hear something I really like, then do maybe a six- or eight-stave reduction on staff paper of four bars, or eight, or fewer even. Notwithstanding my admiration for the entirety of the Rite, certain bits stand out.

Good luck!

John


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## youngpokie (Feb 19, 2020)

In formal education, the piano transcription is used to study harmony because it can be played through, often in parallel with the full score analysis. The full score can be used in multiple ways.

I think it really depends on how deep you want to get into it; for example

- to study how the "musical thought", as it were, unfolds and develops bar by bar, and how the composer varies it over the course of the piece, especially in Romantic onward where identical recapitulation was not used anymore;

- how some particular sound color or energy was achieved (I have seen this a lot with Debussy La Mer; one example would be on how the intervals, and especially chords, are built up within the sections and vertically across the orchestra, how articulations and dynamics are used for phrasing or accents; how different articulations and chord treatments are combined to create sound or contrast);

- techniques of melody orchestration (the how and the why, in the context of the piece or melody structure itself); and use of rhythm as basis for creating orchestral "fillers" that support and propel the melody;

- overall individual/unique orchestration style of the composer (often, the treatment and the role of brass and its combinations with other groups; woodwinds vs strings; do section function as individual contrasting "voices" in more transparent orchestra sound such as Tchaikovsky or do they overlay for creation of new timbres and thickness of sound);

- orchestration in context of size of the orchestra (4x winds vs 2x winds size, same for brass: 2 trumpets vs 5 trumpets) and genre, this has big impact on divisi vs unisono writing;

- analysis of any specific moments in the score, such as particular effects or striking passages (how it's been done)


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## bryla (Feb 19, 2020)

I Would first of all just follow along with music from start to finish and try to get a few listens in a row without getting lost. Then When you know What all the sections Sound like you Can start to reduce and transcribe. OrchestrationOnline made a Series over 10 years ago called Intro To Orchestration that covers ways to read scores.


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## Gil (Feb 19, 2020)

Hello!
Very interesting question (and answers)!
Thomas Goss of Orchestration Online has two wonderfull playlists for reading the Rite Of Springs:


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## Evan R (Feb 19, 2020)

With big scores like Daphnis et Chloe, Mahler etc. my steps usually involve:


Making a piano reduction (or find one if I'm being lazy).
Analysing the harmony under the basses in the full score
Committing certain pages to memory, first from the piano reduction then the full score
Finding the micro- and macro- structure: finding the phrasing then the form, then structure of the movement/entire work.
Analysing orchestral numbers and balance of material in foreground, middleground and background- 4 horns vs. 2 clarinets etc.
Make notes of parts where it's less effective - there are parts in Daphnis et Chloe for example where sul tasto is used far too high on the fingerboard for viola for example, it's good to see how the orchestra ignores or adapts these instructions as this is often what studio musicians have to do and I prefer to make my own stuff as free from this kind of thing as possible!
Tutti chords or important moments I often make a reduction to see how the voices inter-relate.
I play/sing all the parts through and often commit them to memory on the piano.
Understanding the historical context/how it would have sounded - Mahler 4 would have been played on Trumpets in F unlike most renditions today so understanding this helps know they orchestrated.
Listening to a variety of versions by different conductors and orchestras instead of just my favourites. (Listen to Mehta's Rite vs. Bernstein's and the Sacrificial Dance is an almost different piece!)
Not necessarily in that order or all of them at once, but I find it useful for getting inside the score.


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## wst3 (Feb 19, 2020)

to each their own - all of the approaches mentioned (and several more, I'm sure) are valid. It depends entirely on what it is you hope to learn.

Composition? Harmony? Orchestration?

At any given moment I might be interested in one more than the others, but most of the time I find something that inspires me or intrigues me and I use the score to find out how it works. Is it a specific chord, a combination of instruments, the turn of a phrase? What is it that got my attention?

Sometimes I will try to transcribe a section and then compare it to the score. Or I will create a piano reduction to see if I understood the inner workings.

I think maybe it helps to have a teacher walk you through a score or two before you do it yourself, but I doubt it is required. 

The two you have are large complex pieces, there are things to study for miles - pick something that you like and start there.

At least thats what I would do...


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## jonathanparham (Feb 19, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I don't like to boil the ocean, .....
> 
> John


Don't mean to steal the thread, but I love it when you say that lol


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## wilifordmusic (Feb 19, 2020)

Identify your reason for studying the score.

Is it the melody and it's development? Identify the themes and where they occur and evolve.
Is it the harmony? Same process.
Is it the orchestration? Same process.

These things can be separated and create bite-size chunks.

If you are dealing with printed scores, high-lighters can be useful (different colors for different things.}

Don't get bogged down trying to do it all at once.

Sorry if this seems simplistic, but it works for those of us who have to focus on one thing at a time.

And most importantly, enjoy just listening to a recording that you find musically interesting and try not to be overwhelmed.

Happy Trails.

(and try to boil the ocean  )
(AAARGGGGH, most importantly don't forget rhythm. Especially with that Igor guy.)


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## jononotbono (Feb 19, 2020)

Everyone that did the JXL Brass Masterclass went out and bought Daphnis and Chloe and Rite of Spring... of which Conrad Pope told Tom Holkenborg to study them. And then Tom told us too!

I ordered them too but still waiting for them to arrive!


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## d.healey (Feb 19, 2020)

Don't be afraid to annotate your score, this can help break things down. If you really don't want to write/draw on the score then make a photocopy or use a digital version.

Find sections that you're interested in and make a short score or mockup. I find this very useful for analyzing rhythms and for figuring out how parts have been divided between different instruments/sections.


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## SergeD (Feb 19, 2020)

Why not simply take advantage of technology and study it through midi files.


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## BlackDorito (Feb 19, 2020)

You might want to consider augmenting your score study by reading books about Ravel and Stravinsky. I personally have a whole shelf of Strav books .. and I find the _life and times_ of Stravinsky very inspiring. Some of the books dive into his process, based on interviews and sketches, particularly the Taruskin series (UC Press, expensive). There are 2-hand and 4-hand piano versions of the Rite which help you 'see' the music.


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## jbuhler (Feb 19, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Don't be afraid to annotate your score, this can help break things down. If you really don't want to write/draw on the score then make a photocopy or use a digital version.
> 
> Find sections that you're interested in and make a short score or mockup. I find this very useful for analyzing rhythms and for figuring out how parts have been divided between different instruments/sections.


Mockups weren't a possibility back when I did the bulk of my careful score study. They are a marvelous tool. (Doing them to a reference recording is also great help in balancing your template.) But in the old days of pencil, paper, piano, and scratchy vinyl, I listened a lot with scores, and constantly seeing how the music was laid out for this or that kind of sound is very helpful in internalizing the conventions and rules of thumb. (I would also bring scores along to the orchestra rehearsal; as a trombonist there was ample time to listen.) Also when I listened without a score, I would imagine the orchestration (and sometimes write it down) and then check it, especially when I wasn't sure about it, or I heard something that was especially striking.


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## Stringtree (Feb 19, 2020)

I never thought of Daphnis and Chloe as D&C. Eek. Jeez, JohnG. Macabre.

I know it so well I could whistle it. I developed thousands of rolls of film and printed negatives to a cassette. 

When I got Insolidus, I said, “Imma sequence dis.” Then I found the vast holes in my sample content to do this properly.

My copy of the score was one dollar. Bookstore going out of business. 

I am going to sequence it. Colors? That’s a whole Pantone swatchbook. After my abject failure I went back to simpler things for my simpler abilities.

Greg


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## jbuhler (Feb 19, 2020)

SergeD said:


> Why not simply take advantage of technology and study it through midi files.


Piano roll (I assume that's what you mean by studying it through midi) gives you a different view of the music than traditional notation does, and this is especially true of full scores. That's not a knock on midi, because it can be revealing in its own way, but its perspective on the music is not the same as a score. (I say this as someone who was trained on traditional notation but now composes mostly straight to piano roll, with a bit of sketching on manuscript paper.)


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## gh0stwrit3r (Feb 19, 2020)

Thank you so much for all the thoughts, tips and advise on this matter! There are many ways to study and analyse these scores, I know now based on your answers.

I will keep it small and simple in the beginning. Just taking some bars that I love or got my special attention. Study the harmony, melody, rhythm and orchestration. Try to translate it to the piano. And (I thought this was an amazing tip too) think in positions - foreground, background and sides.

Life is beautiful my friends! Doing this makes me really happy


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## GNP (Feb 19, 2020)

I would listen more to the recordings and decide which 'riffs' or 'flourishes' played by each instrument sounds cool, and could possibly be used for filmscores, and then look at the actual paper score to see how that was done with paper. That's basically all I give a shit about, lol


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## SergeD (Feb 20, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Piano roll (I assume that's what you mean by studying it through midi) gives you a different view of the music than traditional notation does, and this is especially true of full scores. That's not a knock on midi, because it can be revealing in its own way, but its perspective on the music is not the same as a score. (I say this as someone who was trained on traditional notation but now composes mostly straight to piano roll, with a bit of sketching on manuscript paper.)



Midi tracks help me to hear, instead of to see, colors of orchestration. As example, I have studied "La Mer" from Debussy and had a strong feeling of a painting. The whole piece is a build of layers which are not individually connected but creates a picture when all unmuted. A very unusual experience.


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## jbuhler (Feb 20, 2020)

SergeD said:


> Midi tracks help me to hear, instead of to see, colors of orchestration. As example, I have studied "La Mer" from Debussy and had a strong feeling of a painting. The whole piece is a build of layers which are not individually connected but creates a picture when all unmuted. A very unusual experience.


There's no doubt that midi gives you another very useful perspective. The full score does too.


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## bryla (Feb 20, 2020)

Sorry, it was called Score-Reading





Piano roll shows harmony. That's basically it. It doesn't show how notes sit on tessituras, how doublings/octaves work or how many musicians play. What kind of disivions, whether it's one or the other kind of harmonic and many more nuances that relate to orchestration.

If it's because of the different clefs and transpositions that you prefer piano roll I advice you to simply follow the score to music. Do it a couple of times until you are comfortable with the macro view of the piece.


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## jbuhler (Feb 20, 2020)

bryla said:


> Sorry, it was called Score-Reading
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Piano roll can be a lot more revealing than simply giving you the harmony and it has the added bonus of being able to easily try alternatives out. This is not at all to discount the full score: I agree it gives you a completely different perspective on it all.


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## Jim Martin (Feb 20, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Everyone that did the JXL Brass Masterclass went out and bought Daphnis and Chloe and Rite of Spring... of which Conrad Pope told Tom Holkenborg to study them. And then Tom told us too!
> 
> I ordered them too but still waiting for them to arrive!



Is that masterclass available for order?


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## jononotbono (Feb 20, 2020)

Jim Martin said:


> Is that masterclass available for order?



It was for people that preordered the library.


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## Jim Martin (Feb 20, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> It was for people that preordered the library.



I guess that's only fair for all those that have to deal with the player issues associated with the launch. They should have filmed it and allowed others to buy it, would probably be a good learning experience for others too. Now back to the originally scheduled show...


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## jononotbono (Feb 20, 2020)

Jim Martin said:


> I guess that's only fair for all those that have to deal with the player issues associated with the launch. They should have filmed it and allowed others to buy it, would probably be a good learning experience for others too. Now back to the originally scheduled show...



Well, the Masterclass was one of the reasons I did pre order. Sure you save a bit of money by pre ordering but having a live class (and yes it has been recorded so we can watch it as many times as we want) by one of the most successful film composers at the minute and one on him talking about the library and how to use it was worth preordering for me. Having them sell the masterclass would devalue the whole pre ordering thing. I'm not against them doing it but I would certainly think twice before preordering anything again if they did... And OT have already said they won't so I guess I don't have much more to say about that 

Yes, back to score study. I'm hoping my copies of Rite of Spring and Daphnis and Chloe arrive today


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## RobbertZH (Feb 20, 2020)

Maybe the orchestration and composition books (available as download or printed) from Norman Ludwin can be of help. 

His orchestration books (pdf) look a bit like powerpoint slides with some slides 
with text explanations of different concepts and many slides with *annotated scores* that shows where something interesting is happening. 

I see that he has one book completely dedicated to Ravel's piece "La Valsa":

https://www.musicnewapproach.com/la-valse

For every book you can view some sample pages.


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## Jim Martin (Feb 20, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Well, the Masterclass was one of the reasons I did pre order. Sure you save a bit of money by pre ordering but having a live class (and yes it has been recorded so we can watch it as many times as we want) by one of the most successful film composers at the minute and one on him talking about the library and how to use it was worth preordering for me. Having them sell the masterclass would devalue the whole pre ordering thing. I'm not against them doing it but I would certainly think twice before preordering anything again if they did... And OT have already said they won't so I guess I don't have much more to say about that
> 
> Yes, back to score study. I'm hoping my copies of Rite of Spring and Daphnis and Chloe arrive today



I get it... Unfortunately life put me on a break from all things music and I'm just now getting back to what I love so I've missed a lot by being gone for a little over a year. (50% off sales on SCS, Pre-Orders of JXL brass, ...) You really are "penalized" if you don't follow this forum regularly.


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## youngpokie (Feb 20, 2020)

bryla said:


> Sorry, it was called Score-Reading
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Respectfully, I think you need to be an extremely proficient sight reader (including fluency in multiple clefs) to learn a ton by simply following the score like Rite of Spring visually to a recording. For me personally, an exercise like this would be "nice" and perhaps helpful at some level (like following the lyrics to a song) but I wouldn't buy a score for something like this.

I love the Mozart's symphony in the example you gave and I listen to it quite often, but it's very simple, logical and easy compared to complexity and innovation of Stravisnky.

Mozart: standard I-V-I harmonic system; fully developed cadence-based melodies; clear separation between foreground and background, small orchestra size, single meter and very basic rhythm, orchestration based on harmony and contrast in melodic development.

Rite of Spring: polytonality, tritones; endless chromaticism; embryonic melody (more in folk scales than Classic oriented); the merging of foreground and background; orchestration based on sonic texture and rhythm above all else; large orchestra (5 clarinets!) and constant rhythm changes.

I actually listened to Rite of Spring this morning and what I hear in it is a system of micro-elements of melody and harmony that are built up on top of complex but rather short rhythmic segments. But within these segments, there is a lot going on, quite unlike Mozart's symphony.

So in my humble opinion, there's deeper learning in working on these segments one by one, and especially deconstructing them on the piano or in MIDI (probably against a reference track and using the score to follow bar by bar).


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## bryla (Feb 20, 2020)

youngpokie said:


> Respectfully, I think you need to be an extremely proficient sight reader (including fluency in multiple clefs) to learn a ton by simply following the score like Rite of Spring visually to a recording. For me personally, an exercise like this would be "nice" and perhaps helpful at some level (like following the lyrics to a song) but I wouldn't buy a score for something like this.


It's much easier than you think. Once you're lost on the second page, you start to look for instruments to hook on to. Then you go back to the beginning and try again. For every time you go a page longer the incrementally better you get. It's much like bouldering. At first you can't lift yourself up and fall down after a couple of meters. When you reach the top you can see the way to see the wall and the next wall you encounter.

Micro analyzing one section that looks cool does nothing to your skill compared to be able to follow a score in my opinion.

The first six months after I got the Rite Of Spring I didn't make it past the first page and my head started to hurt. Start with D&C instead or The Planets.


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## wst3 (Feb 20, 2020)

Norman Ludwin's books are outstanding. I've been adding to my collection of his books slowly, as I can spend hours and hours going through them. His comments are really interesting, and the snippets of the scores are easy to mock-up.


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## Markus Kohlprath (Feb 20, 2020)

I'd say score reading is like everything in music a matter of practice and patience is needed. If you start out I'm not sure if the rite of spring or even D+C are the place to start. Especially if you are not used to sight reading by having mastered an instrument already.
IMO starting out with Mozart isn't a bad idea. Especially the late symphonies are incredibly sophisticated and have a lot of stuff to learn from. Not so much in terms of modern orchestration of course but a lot of where we are now musically started there somehow I think. At least for me it was a good way to start with Mozart, Beethoven going to Bruckner, Wagner you name it. Now score reading along with listening is as easy as reading a spoken text.


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## MichaelBarry (Feb 20, 2020)

Glad you are studying - we should all be doing this on the reg
I suggest this:


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## Dave Connor (Feb 20, 2020)

Are you new to studying scores? Those two scores are a bit like scaling Mount Everest to begin a walking regimen, when it may be better just going around the neighborhood for thirty minutes. There are treasures in both of course but the nature of your question is understandable since it is sort of hard to know where to begin. Neither is typical of most orchestral writing, particularly the Rite.

The Classical orchestra is an expansion of the Haydn orchestra which reached it’s furthest bounds with Strauss and Mahler. If you can understand the smaller earlier orchestras than you can understand the expansion or reinforcement of them that followed. The point being that you would not need advice on how to study _any_ score since you would instinctively gravitate to the primary elements that dominate most orchestral works - in any medium.

I’m not discouraging looking at those scores - I would use my ears and then look to see how a passage I liked was achieved. I’m saying, study how to build a house before you study how to paint one.


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## gh0stwrit3r (Feb 22, 2020)

MichaelBarry said:


> Glad you are studying - we should all be doing this on the reg
> I suggest this:



Thanks Mike! Great video! This is certainly helpful 👍


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