# OT Phoenix Orchestra (The Chinese orchestra)



## Zee (Sep 4, 2020)

Looks interesting, seems to be only for SINE


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## Beans (Sep 4, 2020)

Note that this is a pre-order price, and not an introductory/early adopter price. That is, according to the thread in Commercial Announcements, the current price ends the day it comes out.

It sounds lovely, and the comparisons with JADE by Strezov Sampling will be interesting.


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## Beans (Sep 4, 2020)

For anyone unsure about SINE (like me), you can download the free Layers instruments as a small test. It's obviously not going to be very thorough, but you do start to get a feel for the software's workflow.


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## Yogevs (Sep 4, 2020)

So nice to see these companies go out of yet another orchestral library. Even though I don't have use for this specific library I can't wait to see what comes next. More of these please !


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## Garlu (Sep 4, 2020)

Trailer on the same day of Mulan being released?  

Sounds great!


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## sostenuto (Sep 4, 2020)

Have many Chinee Orchestra VSTi and will be most interested to listen and compare.





__





Kong Audio Software


Kong Audio specializes in recreating Chinese instruments in the VSTi format for the modern composers.



www.chineekong.com





_Pleased with OP use of new Sample Talk Thread to allow diverse comment !_


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## Larbguy (Sep 4, 2020)

As a big fan of OT, i'm very curious about this, but I also own Jade Ethnic Orchestra, so I may go the route of a-la-carte purchases. curious to hear how the patches sound on their own. after checking out the articulations listed, though, it seems like there's a lot of depth. i'll def, at the very least, get some things a-la-cart (looking at the Sheng)


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## sostenuto (Sep 4, 2020)

PLEASE forgive waay OT use of this Thread !!  ... but truly need knowledgeable help to get this right !

What is correct *orientation* of this Key on new Ducky keyboard ??


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## Beans (Sep 4, 2020)

I don't know if I should buy *VSL Big Bang Orchestra: Phoenix*, or *Orchestral Tools Phoenix Orchestra*.


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## sostenuto (Sep 4, 2020)

234 beans up for grabs tho .......... 🤔


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## Kent (Sep 4, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> PLEASE forgive waay OT use of this Thread !!  ... but truly need knowledgeable help to get this right !
> 
> What is correct *orientation* of this Key on new Ducky keyboard ??


isn't this whole thread OT


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 4, 2020)

Beans said:


> Note that this is a pre-order price, and not an introductory/early adopter price. That is, according to the thread in Commercial Announcements, the current price ends the day it comes out.
> 
> It sounds lovely, and the comparisons with JADE by Strezov Sampling will be interesting.


Does anybody else think that's shitty? It's basically a punishment for being reasonable and waiting for user reviews and examples.
I've seen intro prices reducing upon release (which I don't like either), but not entirely falling away like here. This is insanity!


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## Cheezus (Sep 4, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> PLEASE forgive waay OT use of this Thread !!  ... but truly need knowledgeable help to get this right !
> 
> What is correct *orientation* of this Key on new Ducky keyboard ??


It's correct as pictured. It means mouse.


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## lettucehat (Sep 4, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Does anybody else think that's shitty? It's basically a punishment for being reasonable and waiting for user reviews and examples.
> I've seen intro prices reducing upon release (which I don't like either), but not entirely falling away like here. This is insanity!



I don't know, lots of developers do it and Jade in particular was the exact same situation. It seems more like rewarding people for trusting the developer will deliver. It's frustrating if you do want to wait and see, which is perfectly reasonable. Having said that, I pre-ordered Jade and was not disappointed at all. Looks like Phoenix's pre-order and normal prices are almost identical, as well as the content. Perhaps the reasoning is that people who missed out on Jade will want to take a crack at this pre-order instead.

Remains to be seen if OT can bring anything new though. Without a demo erhu or something it's hard to tell. A lot of these instruments are really hard to get good VIs out of, I'll keep an eye on this for a la carte options (and credit to OT for introducing that practice).


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## Scottyb (Sep 4, 2020)

Sounds wonderful and boy is it getting harder to choose which of these libraries to choose! So many amazing choices! We are so lucky and spoiled! 😋


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 4, 2020)

ALTM said:


> I don't know, lots of developers do it and Jade in particular was the exact same situation. It seems more like rewarding people for trusting the developer will deliver. It's frustrating if you do want to wait and see, which is perfectly reasonable. Having said that, I pre-ordered Jade and was not disappointed at all. Looks like Phoenix's pre-order and normal prices are almost identical, as well as the content. Perhaps the reasoning is that people who missed out on Jade will want to take a crack at this pre-order instead.
> 
> Remains to be seen if OT can bring anything new though. Without a demo erhu or something it's hard to tell. A lot of these instruments are really hard to get good VIs out of, I'll keep an eye on this for a la carte options (and credit to OT for introducing that practice).


Yea, lots of devs (like Strezov with Jade) reduce the discount upon release, which is bad enough.
But in this case it *entirely* falls away as it seems once released. That's not something I've seen before.
That looks more like trying pressure everyone who is interested in it to buy it without reasonable outside influences.. *or else you pay almost double!*
'Reward for trust in the dev' sounds a bit like a defense lawyer's take on it 

Aside from this weird offer I'm actually a fan of OT and the A La Carte option is amazing! I'll probably be using it for some of the instruments in Phoenix.


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## lettucehat (Sep 4, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Yea, lots of devs (like Strezov with Jade) reduce the discount upon release, which is bad enough.
> But in this case it *entirely* falls away as it seems once released. That's not something I've seen before.
> That looks more like trying pressure everyone who is interested in it to buy it without reasonable outside influences.. *or else you pay almost double!*
> 'Reward for trust in the dev' sounds a bit like a defense lawyer's take on it
> ...



Good point on gradually reducing the price; I didn't remember Jade doing that since I pre-ordered and stopped paying attention. Perhaps growing pains for a developer that's used to charging high prices, learning how to do discounts one step at a time lol.


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## sostenuto (Sep 4, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> It's correct as pictured. It means mouse.



@ Cheezus  Sooo cool !! Honestly relieved and content now.
Not good to violate Fung Shui order of things.  
Seeing and touching daily ..... if incorrectly positioned ..... could be spooky ? 

(_ Many business trips to China in !980(s) but tough challenge with spoken and written language. )_ Maybe there are Macros to make keystrokes 'mouse' oriented ? Low priority, but intriguing.

Thank-you very much for solid answer.

Regards


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## Cheezus (Sep 4, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> @ Cheezus  Sooo cool !! Honestly relieved and content now. Many business trips to China in !980(s) but tough challenge with spoken and written language. Maybe there are Macros to make keystrokes 'mouse' oriented ? Low priority, but intriguing.
> 
> Thank-you very much for solid answer.
> 
> Regards


I believe there are, though I think Ducky included that and the space bar engraving to celebrate the Year of the Mouse.


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## Sips Tea (Sep 4, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Does anybody else think that's shitty? It's basically a punishment for being reasonable and waiting for user reviews and examples.
> I've seen intro prices reducing upon release (which I don't like either), but not entirely falling away like here. This is insanity!


I think it's also done this way to entice those of us who don't really need the library, i.e. me, to buy it given the attractive price. I may be wrong but I don't think OT has ever had a pre-order price thats 40% off the original price. I'm really tempted to buy it as I may need it one day. I'd rather pay 299 + VAT now than 499 + VAT in a few years time.


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## sostenuto (Sep 4, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> I believe there are, though I think Ducky included that and the space bar engraving to celebrate the Year of the Mouse.



Since 2020 is Year of the Rat, '_mouse_' caught me waaay off guard.  Just received in 'open box' condition from eBay Seller, who did not know much about the item. I have struggled to sort space bar image (far right), which must just be random keys packed with various Keyboards. Definitely not Year of the Rat spacebar (center). THX for help !


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## axb312 (Sep 4, 2020)

ALTM said:


> I don't know, lots of developers do it and Jade in particular was the exact same situation. It seems more like rewarding people for trusting the developer will deliver. It's frustrating if you do want to wait and see, which is perfectly reasonable. Having said that, I pre-ordered Jade and was not disappointed at all. Looks like Phoenix's pre-order and normal prices are almost identical, as well as the content. Perhaps the reasoning is that people who missed out on Jade will want to take a crack at this pre-order instead.
> 
> Remains to be seen if OT can bring anything new though. Without a demo erhu or something it's hard to tell. A lot of these instruments are really hard to get good VIs out of, I'll keep an eye on this for a la carte options (and credit to OT for introducing that practice).



Strezov had the walkthroughs out in advance and I think a few streamers were able to showcase the Lib in advance as well. Plus they had the Xiao freebie. 

Remains to be seen what OT does here, but from past experience they usually release their walkthroughs really late.

Also I think Jade has a lot more content than this.


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## Mucusman (Sep 4, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Yea, lots of devs (like Strezov with Jade) reduce the discount upon release, which is bad enough.
> But in this case it *entirely* falls away as it seems once released.



This is inaccurate. OT typically offers a pre-release price, then upon release, offers a post-release/introductory price for another couple of weeks that ends up being about 50 euros above the "buy it blind" pre-release price. You won't see the price go from 299 euros to 499 euros on release day. I assume it will nudge up to 349 euros. (I share your frustration, but it's not as extreme as you seem to believe.)


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2020)

The functionality of Pheonix in terms of flexibility, ease of customizing the articulations, legato quality, ..etc. in SINE will have an edge over JADE's (Kontakt).

I know Strezov is planning on releasing an update to JADE that will make it more practical to switch articulations, instead of have them loaded as separate instruments, and possibly other improvements, and additional new material as well. But we have to wait for a while.


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## purple (Sep 4, 2020)

I am interested but concerned by the fact that I don't hear much exposed erhu in the demos. The make or break for me is really the erhu's legato/consistency overall, as most of these instruments already have been sampled well by other devs. The recording is well done though, so it might be worth it even if you do have other devs' versions of this sort of thing.


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## Geomir (Sep 4, 2020)

axb312 said:


> Also I think Jade has a lot more content than this.


Including some amazing choirs!


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## lettucehat (Sep 4, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Including some amazing choirs!



Wow even as an owner I forgot about all of that.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 4, 2020)

Mucusman said:


> This is inaccurate. OT typically offers a pre-release price, then upon release, offers a post-release/introductory price for another couple of weeks that ends up being about 50 euros above the "buy it blind" pre-release price. You won't see the price go from 299 euros to 499 euros on release day. I assume it will nudge up to 349 euros. (I share your frustration, but it's not as extreme as you seem to believe.)


It's neither inaccurate nor accurate. However it reads like this to me.

"Available for download on September 21, pre-order now for €299 (regular price €499). Offer ends on September 21, 2020." (YouTube description)

If there was another discount at the 21st I think they'd put that in. Although it may have been forgotten.


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## DrSgtShock (Sep 4, 2020)

I was waiting for a Jade discount before I pounced but this may be what I get instead. SINE vs. Kontakt doesn't matter much to me, so it'll come down to demos and whether I think I'm missing out on Jade's choirs.


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## MA-Simon (Sep 4, 2020)

Honestly, I don‘t care about the price. Already preordered.

Sine might be less usefull, but it has portamento and the erhus sounded to be more in tune. Jade is more chaotic. Which is fine too. Looking forward to the update.


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## muziksculp (Sep 4, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> Sine might be less usefull



Hmmmm...... Why is that ? 

imho. SINE will give the library a lot of advantages over Kontakt.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 4, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> It's neither inaccurate nor accurate. However it reads like this to me.
> 
> "Available for download on September 21, pre-order now for €299 (regular price €499). Offer ends on September 21, 2020." (YouTube description)
> 
> If there was another discount at the 21st I think they'd put that in. Although it may have been forgotten.


it is inaccurate, because OT has literally never done what you describe. Are you unaware of a snakes venom until it bites you? 

every single time they have a preorder, its followed by an intro price. every.single.time. 

if you ask them if theyll have an intro price after the pre order, theyll tell you - although like most competent sales teame. won't tell you the price difference. 

I really fet sick and tired of this same discussion every single time a company does a pre-order, we get it - some don't like it, some do. But you've been around here long enough to see this every time, so I don't know why you're making a fuss about it. You know the outcome already, don't you? If it didn't change after the HZS announcement, it's not changing now. Only difference is that people on the other side of the argument aren't loud about it, because they are grateful for the extra discount in something they would buy anyways - but don't expect it out of every developer. 

I'm pretty indifferent, but your lack of perspective on the topic combined with the fact that you should 100% know better based on experience compelled me to actually waste time on this argument again.

it would be harder to list developers who ONLY have a preorder, and absolutely none of the major vendors do that.


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## korruptkey (Sep 4, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> it is inaccurate, because OT has literally never done what you describe. Are you unaware of a snakes venom until it bites you?
> 
> every single time they have a preorder, its followed by an intro price. every.single.time.
> 
> ...



Relax, if you're really indifferent, then be indifferent. Not everyone here has experience purchasing multi hundred dollar libraries or know every single developer sale pattern. Many people don't follow developers as closely as others do. Not to mention marketing strategies can change. Getting all upset about this is really a waste of your own energy.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 4, 2020)

korruptkey said:


> Relax, if you're really indifferent, then be indifferent. Not everyone here has experience purchasing multi hundred dollar libraries or know every single developer sale pattern. Many people don't follow developers as closely as others do. Not to mention marketing strategies can change. Getting all upset about this is really a waste of your own energy.


I'm indifferent to developers choice to have pre-order pricing. I'm not indifferent to seasoned forum users re-hashing a topic that has nothing to do with samples. I'm not indifferent to people throwing out unfounded claims about developers when again, this isn't thier first rodeo. 

the people who cant afford to spend tons know the sales structures of these companies better than I do, so that's hardly an excuse either. 

lionel has always been reasonable, which is why the misinformation was addressed. Hes above that, and is merely being held to standard.


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## korruptkey (Sep 4, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm indifferent to developers choice to have pre-order pricing. I'm not indifferent to seasoned forum users re-hashing a topic that has nothing to do with samples. I'm not indifferent to people throwing out unfounded claims about developers when again, this isn't thier first rodeo.
> 
> the people who cant afford to spend tons know the sales structures of these companies better than I do, so that's hardly an excuse either.
> 
> lionel has always been reasonable, which is why the misinformation was addressed. Hes above that, and is merely being held to standard.



Again, companies can change marketing strategy... especially in desperate times of pandemic. You never know.

That said, it's unlikely they've changed their marketing strategy. But who are you to decide who should be familiar with sales and what not. Not everyone lurks around these forums remembering every single details. Some people have more important details like family oriented info to keep in their memory. So give people a break. You're getting worked up over something that really isn't any of your business. "Being held to a standard"?, wtf !?!? what kind of community do you think this is? Welcome to the internet? Maybe I best keep a low profile around you.


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## korruptkey (Sep 4, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> It's neither inaccurate nor accurate. However it reads like this to me.
> 
> "Available for download on September 21, pre-order now for €299 (regular price €499). Offer ends on September 21, 2020." (YouTube description)
> 
> If there was another discount at the 21st I think they'd put that in. Although it may have been forgotten.



If you were OT, would you let people think that on the 21st it'd go to a less discounted price or it'd go to the full price? The marketing is intentionally left ambiguous so they are not liable for any claims.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 5, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> it is inaccurate, because OT has literally never done what you describe. Are you unaware of a snakes venom until it bites you?
> 
> every single time they have a preorder, its followed by an intro price. every.single.time.
> 
> ...


I've never seen this type of discussion before, it must be pretty rare or I don't read the big threads in which it happens very deeply.

And, I can only restate what I'm responding to. The way they put it reads like it to me, that's why I kept writing it 'seems' like the sale falls away. I don't care what happened in the past, marketing can change with a new release.

Even a reduction is troubling to me when combined with a lack of info/videos etc, so I'm certainly happy to throw my 2 cents in the head, even though it probably won't change much if others don't seem to be bothered much, confusingly.



korruptkey said:


> If you were OT, would you let people think that on the 21st it'd go to a less discounted price or it'd go to the full price? The marketing is intentionally left ambiguous so they are not liable for any claims.


I'd write that it goes from pre-order to intro price obviously, so noone thinks it goes to normal price.


ProfoundSilence said:


> I'm indifferent to developers choice to have pre-order pricing. I'm not indifferent to seasoned forum users re-hashing a topic that has nothing to do with samples. I'm not indifferent to people throwing out unfounded claims about developers when again, this isn't thier first rodeo.
> 
> the people who cant afford to spend tons know the sales structures of these companies better than I do, so that's hardly an excuse either.
> 
> lionel has always been reasonable, which is why the misinformation was addressed. Hes above that, and is merely being held to standard.


It has a lot to do with the samples since it's about the money you need to spend to get them.


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## MA-Simon (Sep 5, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Hmmmm...... Why is that ?
> 
> imho. SINE will give the library a lot of advantages over Kontakt.


because I can not touch the samples. I often build my own kontakt patches. Add in automation or different release samples etc. For me not beeing able to add my own fixes and edits feels limiting. There is a lot of stuff I can do in Kontakt that makes libraries a lot more playable.

That said, I may be a special case because I dabble in Kontakt a lot. Sine is stable and a great player, just not very open to experimentation.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 5, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> I've never seen this type of discussion before, it must be pretty rare or I don't read the big threads in which it happens very deeply.
> 
> And, I can only restate what I'm responding to. The way they put it reads like it to me, that's why I kept writing it 'seems' like the sale falls away. I don't care what happened in the past, marketing can change with a new release.
> 
> ...


it's nothing to do with samples. 

not doing pre-order isn't going to make the product cheaper, it's just going to take away the discount pre-order people receive

which is basically "if I don't like it, nobody is allowed to have it". That is no way shape or form a punishment for non-preorder people. Any argument that pre-orders paying less is somehow the same as intro price purchasers being "charged more" would apply to all sales. That would mean that anyone who doesn't get intro pricing is unfairly charged ~20% more. Imagine going to the grocery store and crying foul that you're being "overcharged" for chips because they aren't on sale anymore. 

-you get a discount for having faith in the company and giving them cash flow. while also taking a risk before reviews come in

-you get a discount for intro pricing for taking the risk of being an early adopter before any long term real world testing has been done. 

There is nothing problematic about either discount. Your discount comes with the added risk and potential risk of headaches being an early adopter... Who cares if you like the availability of either of those discounts? You're not entitled to any discounts, and you're not being forced to participate in any pre-order or intro pricing. 

I'm not pre-ordering the library, and I'll probably only pick up a la carte which isn't even subject to the intro discount... but notice how I don't care that others get a pre-order or intro discount? Probably because it doesn't actually negatively effect anyone involved(imagine that)

Hate to go right for the throat on the argument, but if you're somehow oblivious to the discussion - consider it this way, anyone who wants to take away pre-orders from other people because they don't like it - is akin to a petulant child who throws a fit and decides that if they cant have it without the downsides that come with it, nobody else should be allowed to take the risk for the benefit.

you're welcome to try to debate that, but I'm simply not interested in dancing around the issue that's been played out. You were on that "one" forum, as I was, so I'm sure you won't mind if the kiddie gloves come off.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 5, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> because I can not touch the samples. I often build my own kontakt patches. Add in automation or different release samples etc. For me not beeing able to add my own fixes and edits feels limiting. There is a lot of stuff I can do in Kontakt that makes libraries a lot more playable.
> 
> That said, I may be a special case because I dabble in Kontakt a lot. Sine is stable and a great player, just not very open to experimentation.



for me, sine being able to do most things I want to do under the hood makes it less painful. The benefits of the baked mic ability and the vastly faster load times REALLY help lessen the pain.

unfortunately some libraries that don't have the features I want also LOCK THEIR INSTRUMENTS(looking at you css) lol


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## Drundfunk (Sep 5, 2020)

Anyone out there who already bothered to create a comparison sheet between PO and JEO, so one can see which instruments are included in both and which are unique to either of those libraries?


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## Beans (Sep 5, 2020)

Drundfunk said:


> Anyone out there who already bothered to create a comparison sheet between PO and JEO, so one can see which instruments are included in both and which are unique to either of those libraries?



It's going to be a difficult comparison, because of the differences in techniques/articulations and the way each company represents them in the patch list.

Just looking at the Erhu patches, JADE shows this:

*Solo*
Erhu 1 Soloist Legato + Trem
Erhu 1 Soloist Stacc
Erhu 1 Soloist Pizz
Expressive Erhu Legato
Expressive Erhu Stacc
Expressive Erhu Pizz
Village Erhu Legato + Trem
Village Erhu Stacc
Village Erhu Pizz

*Ensemble*
Erhu 1 Ens Legato + Trem
Erhu 1 Ens Stacc
Erhu 1 Ens Pizz
Erhu 2 Ens Legato + Trem
Erhu 2 Ens Stacc
Erhu 2 Ens Pizz
Impressionist Erhu Ens

Phoenix Orchestra, however, displays it more like this:

*Erhu

Articulations*

Sustains
Sustains ornament 1
Sustains ornament 2
Marcato long
Marcato short
Staccato
Pizzicato
Tremolo
Trills
Sforzando Crescendo
Sustains harmonics
Portato harmonics
* Legatos*

Legato
Portamento
*Erhu Ensemble a6

Articulations*

Sustains
Sustains ornament 1
Sustains ornament 2
Staccato
Tremolo
Trills
* Legatos*

Legato
Portamento
Not even counting mics, how the heck do you compare that? Sure, we could see what instruments are totally missing, but there's a lot of important detail that would get glossed over without a deeper look.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 5, 2020)

@OrchestralTools someone mentioned trills, are these instruments the standard half and whole step trills, or more? 

what's interesting to me is that this could mean trill orchestrator might be part of sine, given this will be the first library in sine featuring trills(throwing off my original prediction that berlin perc would be the most likely port)


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## gussunkri (Sep 5, 2020)

I might misremember but I thought I saw whole tone and minor third trills. I guess the idea would be to play pentatonic scales.


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## korruptkey (Sep 5, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> I'd write that it goes from pre-order to intro price obviously, so noone thinks it goes to normal price.



That's hippie talk. Different when you're trying to run a business

On another note, I preordered. All I know is that I never got screwed by OT the same way Strezov has screwed me. Jade is not recorded in the same hall as their other most recent libraries. So there's always a chance they'll pull the scummy move of re-recording everything later in the same hall and charge you an exorbitant amount for new features/upgrades and deprecating the old library entirely.


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## jononotbono (Sep 5, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> You were on that "one" forum, as I was, so I'm sure you won't mind if the kiddie gloves come off.



What forum? Sounds exciting!


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## jononotbono (Sep 5, 2020)

I’ve just watched and listed to the Phoenix Orchestra promo video! Holy tittie tourettes! It sounds amazing! I have absolutely no need to buy this but I’m gonna have to because the price is to enticing, it’s an OT library with HGW, and most of the time playing around with instruments and sounds that are very alien to me leads to creative results! Phoenix Orchestra sounds so good!

I just need to figure out how to cash an American cheque and put the bills into my UK bank account so I can pre-order it. Nothing is ever simple 😂


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## Jdiggity1 (Sep 5, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> What forum? Sounds exciting!


Don't listen to the lies!
There is no other forum.


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## Sid Francis (Sep 5, 2020)

Larbguy said:


> As a big fan of OT, i'm very curious about this, but I also own Jade Ethnic Orchestra, so I may go the route of a-la-carte purchases. curious to hear how the patches sound on their own. after checking out the articulations listed, though, it seems like there's a lot of depth. i'll def, at the very least, get some things a-la-cart (looking at the Sheng)



Same here


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## jononotbono (Sep 5, 2020)

So I just watched Mulan. Great film and loved HGW’s music. Is this library anything to do with Mulan (a Phoenix was a big part of the story)?


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## korruptkey (Sep 6, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> it's nothing to do with samples.
> 
> not doing pre-order isn't going to make the product cheaper, it's just going to take away the discount pre-order people receive
> 
> ...



I think you need a therapist.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 6, 2020)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Don't listen to the lies!
> There is no other forum.


there isn't anymore. 

not sure when he stopped paying for it but hes back into the aether again. Now it just sounds extra intriguing. 

jo, you'll find your answer in France... go to the nearest transient and whisper the words awaken.sample.oboe.todd.honor and this will guide you to your first clue. Be wary that you will not be alone on your quest, zimmer has eyes everywhere- watch your back and don't trust anyone.


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## ansthenia (Sep 6, 2020)

Some sort of walkthrough showing the contents being played individually would be very nice if they're going to be taking pre-orders....it's a bit of a blind purchase otherwise right now.


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## Beans (Sep 6, 2020)

ansthenia said:


> Some sort of walkthrough showing the contents being played individually would be very nice if they're going to be taking pre-orders....it's a bit of a blind purchase otherwise right now.



My understanding is that it's coming. Soon, hopefully! I've set a reminder on my calendar for two weeks from today to pull the trigger (or not).


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## xanderscores (Sep 6, 2020)

Does anyone here know more about the studio those recordings were made? I'm wondering if and how Phoenix fits into my existing OT (Teldex) landscape. If the two reverbs are kind of similar, I could imagine that it's possible to combine those libraries together, but if it was completely different I'd hesitate, knowing that the backbone of my compositions will always be the Berlin series. Any thoughts on this?


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## Zee (Sep 6, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Is this library anything to do with Mulan (a Phoenix was a big part of the story)?


This is from OT Phoenix page on OT site
"With the release of Phoenix Orchestra, now all composers can draw from the same library used to create _Mulan"_
My guess is(This wasn't stated by OT) they've been working on it while he's scoring the movie


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## Brian99 (Sep 6, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> So I just watched Mulan. Great film and loved HGW’s music. Is this library anything to do with Mulan (a Phoenix was a big part of the story)?



According to post #140 in the following thread it was created for HGW to write the score and apparently a video from HGW is coming soon. Looking forward to that!





__





Orchestral Tools: Phoenix Orchestra (single instruments from €7)


Seems like another gem. Looking forward to playing with these. Perhaps logistically impossible but I would have been interested in recordings at Teldex even more so. Japanese instrument library when?




vi-control.net


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## Land of Missing Parts (Sep 6, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Does anybody else think that's shitty? It's basically a punishment for being reasonable and waiting for user reviews and examples.
> I've seen intro prices reducing upon release (which I don't like either), but not entirely falling away like here. This is insanity!


I'm not a fan of pre-orders either.


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## jbuhler (Sep 6, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I'm not a fan of pre-orders either.


I’m especially not a fan of pre-orders without walkthroughs delivered in a timely fashion and OT’s past few big releases have been late in delivering these. This time there are at least a number of demos available well before the preorder pricing expires.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Sep 6, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> I’m especially not a fan of pre-orders without walkthroughs delivered in a timely fashion and OT’s past few big releases have been late in delivering these. This time there are at least a number of demos available well before the preorder pricing expires.


Yeah, although Time Micro had some late but still pre-release reviews, which tipped the scale for me to buy it pre-order. And it turned out to be a good library too. 😎

But generally speaking pre-orders are mostly trying to pressure people to buy without information from other users, so I usually skip 'em.


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## jononotbono (Sep 6, 2020)

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I'm not a fan of pre-orders either.



Although SINE has been a rocky start I'm glad I bought JXL Brass and it saved me a considerable amount of Money. Also bearing in mind that I have a couple of Ark and Berlin libraries, I, at this point, trust OT and am willing to trust and back them. I would never Pre Order a sample library from a developer that's new.


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2020)

I'm sure OT will post more videos, walkthroughs, info., ..etc. showing us Phoenix Orch. in more detail during the Pre-Order period.


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## jononotbono (Sep 6, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I would never Pre Order a sample library from a developer that's new.



Unless I start making libraries. Then you should trust them. Of course.


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## Drundfunk (Sep 6, 2020)

Beans said:


> It's going to be a difficult comparison, because of the differences in techniques/articulations and the way each company represents them in the patch list.
> 
> Just looking at the Erhu patches, JADE shows this:
> 
> ...


I see your point but comparing instruments first and articulations second might help to compare them accordingly to find out where one supplements the other.


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## jbuhler (Sep 6, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> I'm sure OT will post more videos, walkthroughs, info., ..etc. showing us Phoenix Orch. in more detail during the Pre-Order period.


That’s what you’d think but with several of their recent big releases the walkthroughs dropped just a day or so before the presale period ended so you were basically left buying on faith.


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## muziksculp (Sep 6, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> That’s what you’d think but with several of their recent big releases the walkthroughs dropped just a day or so before the presale period ended so you were basically left buying on faith.



Hopefully not this time. We shall see.


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## DimensionsTomorrow (Sep 7, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> I know Strezov is planning on releasing an update to JADE that will make it more practical to switch articulations, instead of have them loaded as separate instruments, and possibly other improvements, and additional new material as well. But we have to wait for a while.



Hi, I’m just wondering if this is something that they announced? I downloaded the freebie from that library today and it sounded fantastic! I’m sort of hoping that with the competition now, they will do a nice sale for Jade.

Also, there seems to be some negative opinions of Strezov in this thread. Do they have a bad reputation?


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## Levon (Sep 7, 2020)

DimensionsTomorrow said:


> Hi, I’m just wondering if this is something that they announced? I downloaded the freebie from that library today and it sounded fantastic! I’m sort of hoping that with the competition now, they will do a nice sale for Jade.
> 
> Also, there seems to be some negative opinions of Strezov in this thread. Do they have a bad reputation?


Strezov make great solid libraries as does OT.


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## Beans (Sep 7, 2020)

Levon said:


> Strezov make great solid libraries as does OT.



True for both. Some people swear by OT Berlin Strings, and the Arks are well loved. JXL Brass was so highly regarded that a lot of people are now hoping for a Strings release. 

On the Strezov side, their choirs are a little raw at times, but they're so good that I've bought four of them (so far). And George keeps the updates coming! In some JADE comments here, I even saw someone say it was one of his best purchases ever. And Afflatus is, at its worst, very inspiring. At its best, it's some people's primary strings library. 

So, yeah, much love here for both developers.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 7, 2020)

there is hit and miss with both devs(and almost all devs) but both libraries(jade and phoenix) seem like hits. 

would be cool to hear them together(jades choir/vocal stuff sounds really cool in context)


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## Chungus (Sep 7, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Unless I start making libraries. Then you should trust them. Of course.


Do start making libraries. Because then you'll be compelled to buy them - having the money flow back into your own account, so you can buy them again. We can use the power this cycle would produce as limitless, green energy.


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## jononotbono (Sep 7, 2020)

Chungus said:


> Do start making libraries. Because then you'll be compelled to buy them - having the money flow back into your own account, so you can buy them again. We can use the power this cycle would produce as limitless, green energy.



You are wise.


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## doctoremmet (Sep 7, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> You are wise.


Wait. Did Chungus just invent some sort of perpetuum mobile? So if Jono starts making libraries we’ll basically have proof that energy is limitless, the heat death of the universe can be prevented and we can all buy libraries indefinitely? So there will be like a million gazillion summer and fall sales and Black Fridays where we can all get hyped and get any and all library ever created? Damn, I better start hoarding some new ssd’s.


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## danwool (Sep 7, 2020)

I need a library like Phoenix or Jade, though probably not both. It's clear that OT's Sine Player has potential, but it's also clear that it's not stable enough for professional work yet. I've seen lots of posts describing various issues with it - for me, DP projects with the SP demo library instantiated can't be reopened :( I have lots of libraries, but his is my first experience Orchestra Tools. Unfortunately it's not a good one. I'd prefer PO, but given that Jade sounds great and is a Kontakt instrument, I have very little motivation to trouble shoot SP. 


Ironically, I hadn't even heard of Jade before I started researching PO and the SP. I respect OT taking the plunge with their own engine (diversity is good!), but I have to have something more stable than the current Sine Player if I'm going to buy and learn a library that can only be used with Sine Player


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## muziksculp (Sep 7, 2020)

danwool said:


> but it's also clear that it's not stable enough for professional work yet.



Harry Gregsson-Williams used Phoenix Chinese Orch. in SINE format for the production of MULAN, that's not professional work ?


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## gst98 (Sep 7, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Harry Gregsson-Williams used Phoenix Chinese Orch. in SINE format for the production of MULAN, that's not professional work ?


Yes and I guess JXL isn't a pro either...


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## Sips Tea (Sep 7, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Harry Gregsson-Williams used Phoenix Chinese Orch. in SINE format for the production of MULAN, that's not professional work ?


I wonder if SINE is more stable and performs better when using a VEPro Server PC. I'm yet to encounter any issues with this setup, although I've hardly used it in my template thus far. But, I imagine it's the way JXL and HGW are using it.


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## muziksculp (Sep 7, 2020)

Sips Tea said:


> I wonder if SINE is more stable and performs better when using a VEPro Server PC. I'm yet to encounter any issues with this setup, although I've hardly used it in my template thus far. But, I imagine it's the way JXL and HGW are using it.



I'm using SINE directly in my DAW, (Studio One Pro 5 - Windows 10), no issues, it runs very efficient, and stable.


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## danwool (Sep 7, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Harry Gregsson-Williams used Phoenix Chinese Orch. in SINE format for the production of MULAN, that's not professional work ?


Okay. That's two. Apologies. I should have said not stable enough for my professional work. Obviously SP is stable enough for release or it'd still be in the lab. 

I loved my brief experience with SP, but it simply doesn't work on my system. If I learn that taking the time to troubleshoot and get it working on my rig is necessary and worthwhile I might do so. But given this is my first experience with SP and OT (and their enthusiastic users), what reason do I have to invest? < not rhetorical. i was excited to buy an OT library. i'm still looking for a reason to.


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## muziksculp (Sep 7, 2020)

danwool said:


> Okay. That's two. Apologies. I should have said not stable enough for my professional work. Obviously SP is stable enough for release or it'd still be in the lab.
> 
> I loved my brief experience with SP, but it simply doesn't work on my system. If I learn that taking the time to troubleshoot and get it working on my rig is necessary and worthwhile I might do so. But given this is my first experience with SP and OT (and their enthusiastic users), what reason do I have to invest? < not rhetorical. i was excited to buy an OT library. i'm still looking for a reason to.



Have you considered running SINE in VE-Pro 7 ?


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## gst98 (Sep 7, 2020)

For what its worth, I've found SINE fairly buggy when I load instances in a new project. But I mostly use it set up in my template (disabled tracks in Logic) I have almost no problems. I have more Kontakt crashes than SINE crashes as long as I use it this way.


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## danwool (Sep 7, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Have you considered running SINE in VE-Pro 7 ?


Yes. It seems fine in VEP7, but I'd like the option to use it however. Just like I do with other VIs


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## ansthenia (Sep 7, 2020)




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## babylonwaves (Sep 7, 2020)

Sips Tea said:


> I wonder if SINE is more stable and performs better when using a VEPro Server PC.


i use Sine a lot. In Logic, without a VEPro Server. I wouldn't say that it's perfect but at least here, it doesn't really crash. Okay, maybe once or twice a week but not like others report. So, I deal with it and it's worth it. I do understand that people have issues and some people are very vocal about those. That's fine, but don't underestimate that there are a lot of people who don't really have issues and maybe, after a while, you can't be bothered to lift your finger anymore stating "I don't have that".

The last release is a problem in Logic, but that's a different story I guess. Well, the last Kontakt release was a problem as well ...


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## muziksculp (Sep 7, 2020)

danwool said:


> Yes. It seems fine in VEP7, but I'd like the option to use it however. Just like I do with other VIs



I know what you mean. I'm having issues with Spitfire Audio's Symphonic Motions Library when I use more than one Mic Options, I get clicks when playing lots of notes along with the player, my temporary workaround is to host it in VE-Pro 7, which fixed that, and another issue as well. But I would like to eventually use it directly in S1Pro 5. I will just have to wait for them to fix/improve it via an update.

SINE runs fine, no issues in S1Pro 5 (Windows 10).


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## Drundfunk (Sep 7, 2020)

ansthenia said:


>



I love this guy. Could listen to him for hours. Guess he sold me on the library just like that xD


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## ansthenia (Sep 7, 2020)

Drundfunk said:


> I love this guy. Could listen to him for hours. Guess he sold me on the library just like that xD


Yeah he's great, I've been a big fan of his since Metal Gear Solid 2. Still, I'd prefer a content walkthrough video on the library rather than just Harry's thoughts on it and a little Xiao sample


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## muziksculp (Sep 7, 2020)

ansthenia said:


> Yeah he's great, I've been a big fan of his since Metal Gear Solid 2. Still, I'd prefer a content walkthrough video on the library rather than just Harry's thoughts on it and a little Xiao sample



There is no reason why they won't be posting walkthrough videos of Phoenix Chinese Orch. in the coming days, before the library is released, so people can evaluate it better before Pre-Ordering it. 

Although, I'm very confident the library sounds wonderful, I will surely Pre-Order it.


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## ansthenia (Sep 7, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> There is no reason why they won't be posting walkthrough videos of Phoenix Chinese Orch. in the coming days, before the library is released, so people can evaluate it better before Pre-Ordering it.
> 
> Although, I'm very confident the library sounds wonderful, I will surely Pre-Order it.


Someone else has mentioned that for their previous big releases the video walkthroughs weren't up until the release date of the library. Just a little concerned about that being the case here too.


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## muziksculp (Sep 7, 2020)

ansthenia said:


> Someone else has mentioned that for their previous big releases the video walkthroughs weren't up until the release date of the library. Just a little concerned about that being the case here too.



There might have been a technical reason for that, not because they were intentionally delaying the videos. Orchestral Tools is a very professional First-Class Company/Sample Developer. 

I think Phoenix is a completed library, that they have full control of since it is in SINE format, so I see no reason they would wait until the release day to release some walkthrough videos. I don't recall much about which major OT library they are referring to. but I'm very confident that OT will not bother delaying the videos for Pheonix, they will post them when they are ready. Hopefully soon


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## iMovieShout (Sep 8, 2020)

OMG, I was nearly suckered in to getting OT's Phoenix, BUT then remembered JADE Orchestra by Strezov Sampling, which is by far the superior alternative to OT's offering. 
Jade Orchestra just seems to pop and come alive. Whereas listening to OT's Phoenix just sounds middle of the road. Perhaps if their demos were written, composed, played and mixed by actual experienced Chinese musicians and composers, then it might sound more convincing, but for me Jade Orchestra is the definitive library, at least by sound and useability.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 8, 2020)

jpb007.uk said:


> OMG, I was nearly suckered in to getting OT's Phoenix, BUT then remembered JADE Orchestra by Strezov Sampling, which is by far the superior alternative to OT's offering.
> Jade Orchestra just seems to pop and come alive. Whereas listening to OT's Phoenix just sounds middle of the road. Perhaps if their demos were written, composed, played and mixed by actual experienced Chinese musicians and composers, then it might sound more convincing, but for me Jade Orchestra is the definitive library, at least by sound and useability.



yeah, what idiots OT should have recorded an award winning... oh wait, they did. 

did you actually read literally anything before posting this? 

usability??? by who's accounts?? lol.


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## babylonwaves (Sep 8, 2020)

jpb007.uk said:


> Whereas listening to OT's Phoenix just sounds middle of the road. Perhaps if their demos were written, composed, played and mixed by actual experienced Chinese musicians and composers, then it might sound more convincing, but for me Jade Orchestra is the definitive library, at least by sound and useability.


I just wonder how the stuff you write with Jade sounds, you don't appear to be a Chinese guy either... ? On a more serious note, when I listen to Mulan, that's not traditional music either, nevertheless it sounds cool and this lib was used.


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## iMovieShout (Sep 8, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> yeah, what idiots OT should have recorded an award winning... oh wait, they did.
> 
> did you actually read literally anything before posting this?
> 
> usability??? by who's accounts?? lol.



I've been playing around with a copy of Jade Orchestra with a Chinese musician friend for a couple of days and ok only have OT's demos to go on. But my ears are telling me that Jade is the better library. I don't read the marketing hype if I can help it (thats what comes of having run large marketing teams in the past). I trust my ears not my eyes. Its a shame as OT generally make very good libraries. Maybe once they release Phoenix and I can see it in action, then we might be convinced otherwise, but for now we're going full Jade ahead [/QUOTE]


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 8, 2020)

I think I loss braincells reading that. So basically, you like the demos from jade better - everything else is just vommit

glad UK man is an expert on authentic traditional chinese music, given he has a token chinese friend. Guess you should tell the award winning chinese orchestra that they are a bunch of posers. Go to bangkok where it was recorded and let them know they are posers too. 

Granted, many(not all) of the demo writers weren't chinese - guess it's not authentic. Glad Strezov is the real chinese name you can trust.


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## iMovieShout (Sep 8, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I think I loss braincells reading that. So basically, you like the demos from jade better - everything else is just vommit


The Jade demos are better, yes. But without being able to try both side by side, its always difficult to tell.
However, with the project deadline in mind, timing has now forced our hand and because we are also working with a couple of Chinese musicians who prefer the Jade demos and the clarity of the actual sampled instruments as opposed to the 'muddied' OT demos, we've gone with Jade. 
One comment from one of the others on the project - 'Seems like the OT demos have relied on a lot of classical European orchestral strings and percussion to help their demos along, when they should be using only ethnic asian and chinese sounds to make it work'. 

Anyway, that's our take on Jade vs OT Phoenix.


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## AndyP (Sep 8, 2020)

As a big fan of the soundtrack of *The Last Emperor* I always wanted to have a traditional library with asian sounds.
At the moment I'm waiting for demos of the individual instruments. On the demo tracks on the OT page only one track is marked *Library Only*.

Jade and PO sound different to my ears, Jade at least convinced me more about demos. They sound more alive to me.

But that is rather subjective and I fear that both complement each other well ...


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 8, 2020)

AndyP said:


> As a big fan of the soundtrack of *The Last Emperor* I always wanted to have a traditional library with asian sounds.
> At the moment I'm waiting for demos of the individual instruments. On the demo tracks on the OT page only one track is marked *Library Only*.
> 
> Jade and PO sound different to my ears, Jade at least convinced me more about demos. They sound more alive to me.
> ...


I wish I could buy the choir from jade tbh.


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## AndyP (Sep 8, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> I wish I could buy the choir from jade tbh.


They sound fantastic indeed.
It's a pity that you can't pick out the instruments you like from different libraires. That's what OT does very well, even if it's a bit more expensive individually.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 8, 2020)

AndyP said:


> They sound fantastic indeed.
> It's a pity that you can't pick out the instruments you like from different libraires. That's what OT does very well, even if it's a bit more expensive individually.


 wonder if OT and VSL doing it will encourage more to follow suite? 

audio imperia released hangar V afterall


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## AndyP (Sep 8, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> audio imperia released hangar V afterall


Oh, did I miss that?


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 8, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Oh, did I miss that?


i mispoke, it's hangar IV

https://www.audioimperia.com/collections/all/products/jaeger-hangar-4
point was, everyone wanted the vocal patch and they ended up selling it seperate lol.


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## JaJa (Sep 8, 2020)

jpb007.uk said:


> The Jade demos are better, yes. But without being able to try both side by side, its always difficult to tell.
> However, with the project deadline in mind, timing has now forced our hand and because we are also working with a couple of Chinese musicians who prefer the Jade demos and the clarity of the actual sampled instruments as opposed to the 'muddied' OT demos, we've gone with Jade.
> One comment from one of the others on the project - 'Seems like the OT demos have relied on a lot of classical European orchestral strings and percussion to help their demos along, when they should be using only ethnic asian and chinese sounds to make it work'.
> 
> Anyway, that's our take on Jade vs OT Phoenix.


For me personally, the problem of Jade is that it's rather Mongolian music library than Chinese music library. Not saying Mongolian cannot be part of Chinese music, but when I think of Chinese traditional music the following image always comes to mind:


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## iMovieShout (Sep 8, 2020)

JaJa said:


> For me personally, the problem of Jade is that it's rather Mongolian music library than Chinese music library. Not saying Mongolian cannot be part of Chinese music, but when I think of Chinese traditional music the following image always comes to mind:



Hey that's a good comparison. Thanks. 
Maybe you can tell me if you know of any regional differences in instruments or playing styles? Say between provinces, north or south etc?


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## Sips Tea (Sep 8, 2020)

JaJa said:


> For me personally, the problem of Jade is that it's rather Mongolian music library than Chinese music library. Not saying Mongolian cannot be part of Chinese music, but when I think of Chinese traditional music the following image always comes to mind:



I was just watching this a moment ago! I'm doing some research to see how these wonderful instruments can be used together. This piece has convinced me to get the Phoenix Orchestra, so I can write something like this.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 8, 2020)

JaJa said:


> For me personally, the problem of Jade is that it's rather Mongolian music library than Chinese music library. Not saying Mongolian cannot be part of Chinese music, but when I think of Chinese traditional music the following image always comes to mind:




Jade seems to be missing some articulations e.g. trills, which are great for solo passages as in the video. Phoenix includes trills.


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## JaJa (Sep 8, 2020)

jpb007.uk said:


> Hey that's a good comparison. Thanks.
> Maybe you can tell me if you know of any regional differences in instruments or playing styles? Say between provinces, north or south etc?


May not be a reliable answer but I'm willing to share my opinion. Traditional music of China mostly refers to music of Han Chinese. Han people make up more than 90% of total population in mainland China. They are just EVERYWHERE. As such it's not about regional. Chinese traditional music originated even before Qing Dynasty(206 B.C.) and Mongolian conquered Mainland China was about 1279 A.D.. It partly explains there's not much Mongolian instruments in Chinese orchestra. I believe the most difference between Chinese traditional music and Mongolian music is music genre. Chinese traditional music is well known as being ethereal, soft but weak in bass. The modern Chinese orchestra is even reluctant to borrow cello and timpani from western to reinforce bass range. I don't have much experience with Mongolian music but sounds like there's lot of drone bass made by overtone singing, which makes it distinguished from music of Han Chinese.


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## JaJa (Sep 8, 2020)

Sips Tea said:


> I was just watching this a moment ago! I'm doing some research to see how these wonderful instruments can be used together. This piece has convinced me to get the Phoenix Orchestra, so I can write something like this.


I'm still waiting for walk-throughs to see how good their solo gaohu and erhu can be.


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## JaJa (Sep 8, 2020)

sekkosiki said:


> Just looking at the articulations,
> 
> 
> And Jade seems to be missing some articulations e.g. trills, which are great for solo passages as in the video. Phoenix includes trills.


Base on the price, don't think they'd offer sufficient articulations. But a big plus of Jade is choir part. Strezov's choirs are top notch!


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 8, 2020)

JaJa said:


> Base on the price, don't think they'd offer sufficient articulations. But a big plus of Jade is choir part. Strezov's choirs are top notch!



True, their choirs sound amazing. But so do OT's Ark choirs too. I'm hoping OT would release a choir library.

Btw how comprehensive Phoenix is compared to Silk and Ra?


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## muziksculp (Sep 8, 2020)

sekkosiki said:


> Btw how comprehensive Phoenix is compared to Silk and Ra?



Much, Much more comprehensive than both Silk and Ra.


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## jbuhler (Sep 8, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> There might have been a technical reason for that, not because they were intentionally delaying the videos. Orchestral Tools is a very professional First-Class Company/Sample Developer.
> 
> I think Phoenix is a completed library, that they have full control of since it is in SINE format, so I see no reason they would wait until the release day to release some walkthrough videos. I don't recall much about which major OT library they are referring to. but I'm very confident that OT will not bother delaying the videos for Pheonix, they will post them when they are ready. Hopefully soon


I don’t think OT ever Intentionally delayed
the videos. I think they have sometimes misjudged the amount of time it will take to get everything ready in time for the release. It has happened more than once. So far this time things seem to be being released in a timely fashion. But we’ll see when the walkthroughs drop. Hopefully with more than a day or two to assess before the release date and higher price.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 8, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> I don’t think OT ever Intentionally delayed
> the videos. I think they have sometimes misjudged the amount of time it will take to get everything ready in time for the release. It has happened more than once. So far this time things seem to be being released in a timely fashion. But we’ll see when the walkthroughs drop. Hopefully with more than a day or two to assess before the release date and higher price.


IIRC the worst offender was time micro or macro? 

and was widely praised by it's users, to the point that I dont think i've even seen a negative/regret purchase from the library... so it certainly doesn't sound intentional... "muwhahaha we'll wait til the last second to cause people to impulse buy a library they'll actually love anyways" doesn't seem to make sense.


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 8, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> Much, Much more comprehensive than both Silk and Ra.



Thanks! Good to know.


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## jononotbono (Sep 8, 2020)

There’s one thing in life that we all now know for sure! Life can be cold and empty without a sick MIDI pack! In preparation for the release of Orchestral Tool's Phoenix Orchestra, I've got you covered. You'll never be caught off guard with your ass in the wind and no Midi in your pack ever again. 

Introducing the world's most authentic MIDI PACK to date, it's with great pleasure I present to you...


----------



## stevedeath (Sep 8, 2020)

Not been a fan of SINE so far, but definitely copping this at that intro price.


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## Beans (Sep 9, 2020)

Here's that walkthrough video:


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## axb312 (Sep 9, 2020)

JaJa said:


> Base on the price, don't think they'd offer sufficient articulations. But a big plus of Jade is choir part. Strezov's choirs are top notch!



What you mean by

"Base on the price, don't think they'd offer sufficient articulations" ?


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## Beans (Sep 9, 2020)

axb312 said:


> What you mean by
> 
> "Base on the price, don't think they'd offer sufficient articulations" ?



Yes, the full price of Jade and Phoenix are almost exactly the same.


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## MA-Simon (Sep 9, 2020)

My 2cents as an owner of Jade.

Sadly, I think Phoenix Orchestra will play much, much better then Jade. Unfortunately I have not touched Jade much after the release.

Jade is cool for what it wanted to be. Still some nice gems in there. Love the Morin Khuur Strings!
But some Instruments, currently, play like a bumpy mess. Sustains can feel very fiddly, braking up all the time. The envelope on random notes can sound harsh, having a hard time playing a fluid legato passage. (Erhu for example)

Still excited for that update. Not shure it can fix all of Jades problems though.
I am so sorry, if anyone from Strezov reads this. I was really into this library.
But I could just not find a way to make most of it work for me.

The Phoenix Orchestra in comparison seems to offer not only a lot more articulations then Jade, but also sounds much more fluid, polished and flexible to use.
For example, there seem to be 3-4 types of recorded vib longs for string instruments.
2 types of legato including Portamento, which was sorely missing from Jade. And 4 true mic positions.

I can say more when the library is released. But I will be having a hard time not reaching for Phoenix instead of Jade when it come to Strings and Winds.
_(Jades Perc & Plucked Strings, Voices and Pads are amazing though!)_


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## ansthenia (Sep 9, 2020)

Listening to demos and the walkthroughs of both Jade and phoenix, Jade sounds more lively and vibrant to me, while the Phoenix performances sound a little more flat. But MA-Simon's post reminds me that that can be much easier and more reliable to work with. I was waiting for the walkthrough vid before deciding if to pre-order it or go for Jade, think I'm gonna go with Phoenix, based on the smoother sounding patches and legato compared to what I'm perceiving to be a more lively but chaotic and perhaps less reliable Jade.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 9, 2020)

man its REALLY hard to resist. maybe I can just talk myself into like 1 wind, 1 string, 1 percussion a la carte as a damage control?


----------



## jononotbono (Sep 9, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> man its REALLY hard to resist. maybe I can just talk myself into like 1 wind, 1 string, 1 percussion a la carte as a damage control?



Resistance is futile. Have you not learned anything this week.


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## axb312 (Sep 9, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> My 2cents as an owner of Jade.
> 
> Sadly, I think Phoenix Orchestra will play much, much better then Jade. Unfortunately I have not touched Jade much after the release.
> 
> ...



I agree about the envelopes and lack of portamento, as well as lack of vib. control in Jade.

However,overall, Jade sounds better to me somehow.

Hoping @Strezov @StrezovSampling will give us some good news about all this soon.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 10, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Resistance is futile. Have you not learned anything this week.


I learned that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell

#floridaeducation


----------



## doctoremmet (Sep 10, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Resistance is futile. Have you not learned anything this week.


I bought your MIDI pack and now I’m broke :-(


----------



## LudovicVDP (Sep 10, 2020)

As I know OT very rarely goes on sale, I hate myself for not being able to afford this right now...

Kids to feed and everything... I've made some bad choices in my life


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 10, 2020)

LudovicVDP said:


> As I know OT very rarely goes on sale, I hate myself for not being able to afford this right now...
> 
> Kids to feed and everything... I've made some bad choices in my life


If you have enough to feed the kids and buy the library, then the choice is simple. 

They'll grow out of those shoes soon enough and you can eat the leather out it. Goodwill would have overcharged someone else if you donated it anyways.


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## Beans (Sep 10, 2020)

JADE update surveys are still going out, so I'm wondering if this is a final "have we hit the mark on the update we almost have ready" validation, or if it's a "we're in early phases" survey.


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## danwool (Sep 10, 2020)

Beans said:


> JADE update surveys are still going out, so I'm wondering if this is a final "have we hit the mark on the update we almost have ready" validation, or if it's a "we're in early phases" survey.


Yes. I was hoping the Jade update would show up before the clock runs out on the Phoenix pre-order. Posts on the VI-C Jade thread made it sound like an update would be here soon. But why would they float a survey on Jade if that were the case?


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## Lassi Tani (Sep 10, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Resistance is futile. Have you not learned anything this week.



I knew that, but still tried to fight back with no success. I just had to take the plunge and get it.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 10, 2020)

danwool said:


> Yes. I was hoping the Jade update would show up before the clock runs out on the Phoenix pre-order. Posts on the VI-C Jade thread made it sound like an update would be here soon. But why would they float a survey on Jade if that were the case?


The real question is; why don't developers do surveys more often?? @StrezovSampling I don't have any skin in the jade game, but thanks for sending out a survey. So many businesses just don't care about surveys, but as long as they are done correctly


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 11, 2020)

has anyone made a Google documents that compares the overlap between jade and Phoenix?


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## Martin Nyrwal (Sep 11, 2020)

Honestly, if you are into chinese orchestral instruments, you should consider getting both (at least in the long run). If you are not, then don't purchase just because of hype or the "low" preorder price. But since I would like to see more releases of this kind from both companies in the future, please support both projects with your money regardless.

The possibility to layer the instruments of phoenix with the instruments of jade sounds pretty huge to me.


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## JaJa (Sep 11, 2020)

axb312 said:


> What you mean by
> 
> "Base on the price, don't think they'd offer sufficient articulations" ?


I mean I wouldn't expect a vast articulation list from a comprehensive library at that price range.


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## Beans (Sep 17, 2020)

Well, we're coming up upon the last few days of the Phoenix Orchestra intro price.

Who has jumped on it? I've set a calendar reminder for Sunday morning to make my final decision give in and buy it.


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## jononotbono (Sep 17, 2020)

Beans said:


> Well, we're coming up upon the last few days of the Phoenix Orchestra intro price.
> 
> Who has jumped on it? I've set a calendar reminder for Sunday morning to make my final decision give in and buy it.



End the torment.


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## danwool (Sep 17, 2020)

Somewhat of a gamble, but I jumped. The latest Sine Player update fixed an issue I was having. That, and realizing that Jade just wasn't doing it for me pushed me over.


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## muziksculp (Sep 17, 2020)

Monday Sept. 21st is my Birthday, so I will be buying myself a nice and exciting gift, it's called :

_Phoenix Chinese Orchestra_, by Orchestral Tools  Most likely this weekend.


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## Beans (Sep 17, 2020)

danwool said:


> That, and realizing that Jade just wasn't doing it for me pushed me over.



I've seen your comments about the solo patches often sounding like two instruments the moment you touch the modwheel, which is a common concern for JADE and difficult for any solo library with dynamics crossfade. 

Is there anything else of concern? It seems like the JADE plucked instruments, ensembles, percussion, and even vocals are well liked.


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## ZOZZ (Sep 17, 2020)

Dammit. Couldn't resist the pre-order. My inner Sakamoto took over!


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 17, 2020)

Will be interesting to see the strengths and weaknesses compared between jade and Phoenix

I'm still eyeballing getting a single Wood Wind & percussion from Jade


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## muziksculp (Sep 17, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> 'm still eyeballing getting a single Wood Wind & percussion from Jade



How would you get that ? Are they selling JADE in separate sections ?


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## Cheezus (Sep 17, 2020)

muziksculp said:


> How would you get that ? Are they selling JADE in separate sections ?


They’ve got some freebie single instruments for Kontakt full.


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## muziksculp (Sep 17, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> They’ve got some freebie single instruments for Kontakt full.



I remember they only released one free (teaser) instrument before JADE was released, it was their Xiao wind instrument, with less features than the one in JADE.


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 17, 2020)

I'm at work and I was going on break, I "mis-spoke"(typed?)

if I could get individuals from jade it would 100% be the choir


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## Beans (Sep 18, 2020)

I own JADE, but hadn't used it much outside of a few patches. I ran through everything last night. Overall, I was a little surprised at how much of a positive experience I had with it after getting starry eyed over Phoenix, but it does have *major* problems that should not survive a first patch.

My weakest technical knowledge is in regard to orchestral percussion. I often do the bare minimum, and my old work required very little original percussion. With that said, it was really *fun *to use JADE's "ethnic" percussion patches and lovely to be able to create my own zones. Just a joy to play with.
Sustained ensembles, for the most part, sound lovely. In a few cases, I was fighting the close mic picking up "extra noise"/dynamics on some notes. Testing out every patch over the course of an hour or so, it seemed avoidable-ish. Note that while I've done several hours of research (listening to live recordings) in preparation, I do not have deep enough knowledge of roughly 2/3 of these instruments to know if "this is just how the instrument is," or if it could warrant a cleaner recording or editing. Still, it wasn't very "crisp" or "pure" in some cases, which is what I hear (or think I hear) in the Phoenix demos.
I own Arva, Freyja, Wotan, and Storm Choir Ultimate, so I'm obviously a Strezov choir fan. With that said, I found some QA issues for the JADE vocals, such as different syllables using the same audio.
I don't recall many issues with the shorts and plucked instruments. I didn't play every note for every patch at every velocity, but they seem fairly well QA'd, and I'm the type of person who values consistency over probably anything else in a library. Which brings me to...
The solo sus patches are the ones that more commonly have problems, for reasons noted earlier in the thread and in others. You never know what you're gonna get. From the very first sus bowed string, it sounds doubled instead of solo and pretty different from the first several videos I've watched of live performers playing the same instrument. Even with modwheel at min or max, it *still *sounds like two performances
My prior professional work never required these types of instruments, and now I'm a pure hobbyist. So, I'm rather uneducated when it comes to actual use of JADE and Phoenix. Keep that in mind. I'm just a guy who spends every day in his garden without ever selling at a farmer's market.

Overall, what works is a joy to play, but I still will likely buy Phoenix for what appears to be high quality recordings and editing.

EDIT: Sunday morning edit... I thought I liked the JEO plucked patches, but playing along with the Phoenix video on YouTube shows some differences in mic'ing and articulations that just had me pull the trigger on Phoenix.


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## danwool (Sep 18, 2020)

Beans said:


> I've seen your comments about the solo patches often sounding like two instruments the moment you touch the modwheel, which is a common concern for JADE and difficult for any solo library with dynamics crossfade.
> 
> Is there anything else of concern? It seems like the JADE plucked instruments, ensembles, percussion, and even vocals are well liked.


The crossfades and lack of keyswitches are my main knocks on Jade I guess - and I believe these may be fixed with an update. The ensemble and percussion patches are superb I should add. I don't yet have need for the vocal patches. 

I have other libraries that I prefer for most of Jade's solo instruments (based on its current state), but they're spread out over multiple libraries (EW Silk, UVI WS, BS Ethno, AmpliSound Pipa, IS Guzheng and more), but having them all in one cohesive library would be far preferable....and perhaps optimistic. We'll see.


----------



## JyTy (Sep 18, 2020)

Beans said:


> Well, we're coming up upon the last few days of the Phoenix Orchestra intro price.
> 
> Who has jumped on it? I've set a calendar reminder for Sunday morning to make my final decision give in and buy it.



I resisted... for a while 😀 pushed the preorder button a day ago. The price is reasonable and I really didn’t want to miss the offer...

I love the sound of those instruments and OT really makes prime time stuff. Love the JXL Brass (although I struggled with SINE for a long time, but was worth it) so I know it will be awesome... now waiting (im)patently for the release


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## MA-Simon (Sep 21, 2020)

One thing Jade got absolutely right was the huge number of RR samples! (Up to 8 on shorts!)

Unfortunately the same can not be said for plucked instruments of phoenix... some feature no rr.


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## Laptoprabbit (Sep 21, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> One thing Jade got absolutely right was the huge number of RR samples! (Up to 8 on shorts!)
> 
> Unfortunately the same can not be said for the Guzheng, Guzheng Ensemble a2, Pipa, Liuqin, Zhongruan, Zhongruan Ensemble a3 of Phoenix.
> No RR takes here. Deeply dissapointed, not shure if I can get any use out of these at all.
> ...



Sadly, I don't think you are. Phoenix vs Jade Guzheng test:

@OrchestralTools In light of this, could SINE get neighbor RRs as soon as possible?


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## Beans (Sep 21, 2020)

Funny, since in the AMA Richard Harvey said he was most happy with the Guzheng. Are repeated notes just not a common playing method for it? I'm not learned enough to say one way or another.

As expected, it's going to be best to smoosh these libraries together. In my 15 minutes with Phoenix, I'm really pleased with the mics and general recording quality/consistency, and using the sustain ornaments with the legato via keyswitch was a joy.

EDIT: And now I'm obsessively A/B comparing Jade and Phoenix. I'm liking the tone and mics of Phoenix's shorts more, and the "machine gun" effect is definitely less noticeable when playing these in instead of drawing/copy-pasting midi.


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## jononotbono (Sep 21, 2020)

I’ve not downloaded it yet but I guess the question needs to be asked...

Who needs a MIDI Pack? 😂


----------



## Laptoprabbit (Sep 21, 2020)

Beans said:


> Funny, since in the AMA Richard Harvey said he was most happy with the Guzheng. Are repeated notes just not a common playing method for it? I'm not learned enough to say one way or another.
> 
> As expected, it's going to be best to smoosh these libraries together. In my 15 minutes with Phoenix, I'm really pleased with the mics and general recording quality/consistency, and using the sustain ornaments with the legato via keyswitch was a joy.


I think the vision might have been to switch to the tremolo articulations for repeated notes. Still, even two round robins would be useful.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 21, 2020)

Damn... I kept hearing a machine gun effect in demos and examples but couldn't really believe that a 499 euro at the end of 2020 would come with essential instruments without RR.


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## AndyP (Sep 21, 2020)

Why can't I load Phoenix into the existing OT folder on my SSD where I already have the other libraries? I can't enter a path, just select the hard disk and then Sine will create a new Sine folder for me.


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## Laptoprabbit (Sep 21, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Damn... I kept hearing a machine gun effect in demos and examples but couldn't really believe that a 499 euro at the end of 2020 would come with essential instruments without RR.



I paid the preorder price and I think that's fair for the content. But I agree, 499 given more than half the plucked intruments don't have sustain RRs would be pretty hard to swallow ...


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## AndyP (Sep 21, 2020)

DarkestShadow said:


> Damn... I kept hearing a machine gun effect in demos and examples but couldn't really believe that a 499 euro at the end of 2020 would come with essential instruments without RR.


Gee, that doesn't sound so good. I'm downloading now, I'm curious about the first test.


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## Beans (Sep 21, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Gee, that doesn't sound so good. I'm downloading now, I'm curious about the first test.



While it is disappointing, it's also a good example of playing to a library's flaw in a relatively non-musical, mechanical way. I wouldn't call it as "broken" as, say, Jade's solo patches that rarely sound solo (again, I really like Jade).

So far, at the pre-order price, Phoenix is *awesome*. At the current price (outside of getting back into the pre-order price today by emailing OT) or beyond, your mileage may vary.

EDIT: The Guan is incredibly fun to play. Holy shit, I love this one. It feels very "connected" to my keyboard.


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## Cheezus (Sep 21, 2020)

It's very weird that some plucked instruments have RR's, some don't. The guzheng is a pretty key instrument, you would think they'd put the most care and attention on that vs others.


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## Laptoprabbit (Sep 21, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> It's very weird that some plucked instruments have RR's, some don't. The guzheng is a pretty key instrument, you would think they'd put the most care and attention on that vs others.



Seems like the star of the show is Yangqin (and Yangqin ensemble). They have 4 RRs unlike the others with none and play more naturally


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## danwool (Sep 21, 2020)

Laptoprabbit said:


> Seems like the star of the show is Yangqin (and Yangqin ensemble). They have 4 RRs unlike the others with none and play more naturally


Yes. There's no Yangqin ensemble in Jade.


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## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 21, 2020)

Laptoprabbit said:


> Seems like the star of the show is Yangqin (and Yangqin ensemble). They have 4 RRs unlike the others with none and play more naturally


Oh great to hear, the Yangqin Ensemble was my fav instrument from all of them! :D 
Good to keep in mind for a single instrument purchase at some point


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## Cheezus (Sep 21, 2020)

I'm really liking the variety of ornaments and vibrato options for the wind section. Most of the wind instruments have 3 or 4 different styles of ornaments and you can choose between a half-tone, whole-tone or minor 3rd for those ornaments and the trills as well. If you turn on the legato for all of the different ornament patches you can smoothly transition from an ornament to a regular sustain and you can use CC data to switch between different types of vibrato and ornaments. Example:


----------



## Beans (Sep 21, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> and you can choose between a half-tone, whole-tone or minor 3rd for those ornaments and the trills as well.



I didn't notice those WT vs HT toggles at first, but was quite pleased when I did. It's a different kind of "playable" as compared with Aaron Venture's libraries, and really fun to use.


----------



## Cheezus (Sep 21, 2020)

Beans said:


> I didn't notice those WT vs HT toggles at first, but was quite pleased when I did. It's a different kind of "playable" as compared with Aaron Venture's libraries, and really fun to use.



Yeah I think the next thing OT needs to do now that they've fixed the stability is fix up the GUI for SINE so that stuff like this is more visible. A lot of really important information is a bit too hidden.


----------



## MA-Simon (Sep 21, 2020)

There are lots of positive things to say though about the strings and winds! Very nice! 

I did not want to sound overly negative in my post, just the first things which were downloaded when I opened the new library. So that struck a sour note with me. That is why I tried and edited my post, before someone would quote me, but I failed.


----------



## ansthenia (Sep 21, 2020)

I ended up getting at last second pre-order price. The lack of RRs on many plucked sustains is definitely a problem imo, if I bought at full price it would be enough to make me dissatisfied with my purchase. Still, a nice library overall. Like someone else has mentioned, I suppose the idea is the tremolo patches are meant to replace having multiple RRs on the plucked sustains?

The actual sound is gorgeous, and I really love the winds.


----------



## Laptoprabbit (Sep 21, 2020)

Quick performed test of Jade vs Phoenix Guzheng and Yangqin for those curious. The lack of RRs makes the Phoenix Guzheng fall short, I think I prefer the Phoenix Yangqin slightly though.


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## Beans (Sep 21, 2020)

I'll say this:

If you own Jade instead of Phoenix, you should be pretty darn happy; it can make lovely music, despite its flaws.
If you own Phoenix instead of Jade, you should be pretty darn happy; it can make lovely music, despite its flaws.
If you own both, congratulations.
I think getting them to blend well will be my personal project next weekend. Right off the bat, a super quick test on the Erhu ensemble from Jade with the default "just opened the patch" settings matches up well to Phoenix's ensemble with Spot + Sur (the latter turned a little high) while using the Spaces 2 basic Reynolds preset (turned the Wet up a bit).

Maybe that's a bit cheap instead of trying out some solos or plucks, but... well... that's what I had open. Additionally, I think a value here will be having two similar libraries that can sound very different even among the same instruments.


----------



## jsnleo (Sep 21, 2020)

I just messed around with it for a couple of minutes. Are you guys liking it so far?


----------



## ansthenia (Sep 21, 2020)

jsnleo said:


> I just messed around with it for a couple of minutes. Are you guys liking it so far?


I'm overall happy with it  not impressed by the plucked instruments, but really love the bowed strings & winds.


----------



## jsnleo (Sep 21, 2020)

ansthenia said:


> I'm overall happy with it  not impressed by the plucked instruments, but really love the bowed strings & winds.



I see most people like it. I thought it could be nicer, for some reason I think it sounds a little bit too fake... Though it’s my first Chinese orchestra library.

I wanted to get a Guzheng library and thought I wouldn’t need one after having bought this.

But I think I should spend more time with it before I make a conclusion.


----------



## MA-Simon (Sep 21, 2020)

jsnleo said:


> I wanted to get a Guzheng library and thought I wouldn’t need one after having bought this.


The tone is very nice! For me it just misses 2 more RR to be more playable.


----------



## jsnleo (Sep 21, 2020)

MA-Simon said:


> The tone is very nice! For me it just misses 2 more RR to be more playable.



Well I guess I definitely need to try it again later.


----------



## ansthenia (Sep 21, 2020)

jsnleo said:


> I see most people like it. I thought it could be nicer, for some reason I think it sounds a little bit too fake... Though it’s my first Chinese orchestra library.
> 
> I wanted to get a Guzheng library and thought I wouldn’t need one after having bought this.


Unfortunately I feel the lack of RRs means the Guzheng offered by Phoenix is definitely not one someone can use for all things Guzheng - it's too much of a weakness imo, and will need to be supplemented/compensated by another Guzheng library if you really want to get the most out of the instrument.

That's just how I feel, though everyone seems to agree it's a pretty significant con for the library.


----------



## AndyP (Sep 21, 2020)

So far I am satisfied. I also like the plugged instruments.
But I have the feeling that the Bangdi flute is significantly louder than the rest. Especially when I switch the vibratos the volume increases significantly.
Nothing to complain about in terms of sound. The strings and the winds are great.

The volume changes with several wind instruments when I control the vibratos with the controller.
It gets louder and louder ... I think it is bug. This is not correct.


----------



## Cheezus (Sep 21, 2020)

I have other options for guzheng but the lack of RR's is pretty disappointing. Not what I expected from a premium OT library. Other than that I think the library is great with a really nice sound. It's a dry-ish library with a small studio sound to it that fits perfectly with my existing libraries with the option to go completely dry on the close mic. The focus on variety of ornaments and vibrato is really what makes the library work.


----------



## Beans (Sep 21, 2020)

It's like any two library comparisons. I love the heck out of Cinematic Studio Brass, but sometimes EWHO Brass Diamond is a better fit. Sometimes, the inverse. And blending them will sometimes work, and sometimes be a massive pain.

Same thing here. The Jade erhu ensemble sounds dreamy and has some flaws that add to its realism, but the Phoenix erhu ensemble has the sustain ornament articulations and vibrato switching that, similarly, add to its realism (and it takes well to reverb).

I'm liking a whole lot about Phoenix Orchestra, and I like a whole lot about Jade.

I'm frustrated by a few things in Phoenix, but the RR doesn't bother me too much. I thought I came across one patch in which a legato didn't sound much like its ornament articulations, but I need to find it again.

At the same time, I'm rather more frustrated by Jade's solo patches that never sound like a true solo, no matter where you put the modwheel. And, I think the Phoenix mic'ing is pretty pristine, while the Jade mic'ing can need a little bit of battling sometimes.

EDIT: The Close AB mics on Phoenix Plucked + some reverb match well to Jade's default settings, if you prefer Jade but miss some of the Phoenix ornaments.


----------



## AndyP (Sep 21, 2020)

Xun in C has note dropouts at full vibrato.


----------



## AndyP (Sep 21, 2020)

Is there a way to set the player in Sine so that the performance or mixer menu always appears default?
In VEPro, when I change a track, I automatically end up in the library menu and have to switch again to the Performance Menu.
I have built a VEPro template and it is a little annoying to always make that extra click.


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 21, 2020)

sustain RR's themselves aren't that common for any library even in 2020. I'd use the different ornaments if you need to repeat the same note, however shorts that's another story.

however the ghuzeng not having RR is a little odd... it's basically just a zither though, which have dedicated libraries, but definitely an odd corner to cut.


----------



## Laptoprabbit (Sep 21, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> sustain RR's themselves aren't that common for any library even in 2020. I'd use the different ornaments if you need to repeat the same note, however shorts that's another story.
> 
> however the ghuzeng not having RR is a little odd... it's basically just a zither though, which have dedicated libraries, but definitely an odd corner to cut.


I'm wondering if COVID forced a halt to recording for the plucked instruments given the variance in sampling depth. The strings, woodwinds, and a few of the plucked i.e. most of the library is at a high quality


----------



## ProfoundSilence (Sep 21, 2020)

Laptoprabbit said:


> I'm wondering if COVID forced a halt to recording for the plucked instruments given the variance in sampling depth. The strings, woodwinds, and a few of the plucked i.e. most of the library is at a high quality


maybe was an editing issue, maybe an intern spilled coffee on the hard drive

maybe it's a silent protest


----------



## Laptoprabbit (Sep 21, 2020)

ProfoundSilence said:


> maybe was an editing issue, maybe an intern spilled coffee on the hard drive
> 
> maybe it's a silent protest



An ideal pilot for a television show starring a team of sample developers. 
_
After a very expensive expresso destroys all the plucked hard drives, the team is forced to rerecord in record time to avoid the oncoming plague. But could it have been ... sabotage? _


----------



## jononotbono (Sep 22, 2020)

Time to get my hands dirty and fish through the Phoenix's ashes and get this bad boy downloaded! Can't wait!


----------



## Martin Nyrwal (Sep 23, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Time to get my hands dirty and fish through the Phoenix's ashes and get this bad boy downloaded! Can't wait!



We will get a walkthrough video soon, won't we?


----------



## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Martin Nyrwal said:


> We will get a walkthrough video soon, won't we?



Maybe. I don’t know how to write anything with Chinese instruments so it could turn into a car crash very quickly! Also, I’d have to learn how to pronounce every instrument name so I don’t sound like a complete idiot before trying to play one note!

Yeah, ok, I’ll make one! 😂


----------



## Martin Nyrwal (Sep 23, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Maybe. I don’t know how to write anything with Chinese instruments so it could turn into a car crash very quickly! Also, I’d have to learn how to pronounce every instrument name so I don’t sound like a complete idiot before trying to play one note!
> 
> Yeah, ok, I’ll make one! 😂



Sounds to me like you are already perfectly qualified :D

But yeah, there are a few strange instruments to be thoroughly covered in greatest detail. What also would be really great, is if you would pronounce every instrument in perfect mandarin, tell a little bit about the real instrument and its interesting history, and then sound like a complete idiot playing it. You just have to convince your loyal viewers then, that it's supposed to sound like lovecraftian music.

But I would be fine with something like Oceania II as a next project, as well.


----------



## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Martin Nyrwal said:


> Sounds to me like you are already perfectly qualified :D
> 
> But yeah, there are a few strange instruments to be thoroughly covered in greatest detail. What also would be really great, is if you would pronounce every instrument in perfect mandarin, tell a little bit about the real instrument and its interesting history, and then sound like a complete idiot playing it. You just have to convince your loyal viewers then, that it's supposed to sound like lovecraftian music.
> 
> But I would be fine with something like Oceania II as a next project, as well.



I shall see what I can cook up.


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## Martin Nyrwal (Sep 23, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> I shall see what I can cook up.



Damn, you already did the Oceania II Walkthrough? And 2 Hours long? So the Phoenix Stream will be 40 hours minimum?


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Martin Nyrwal said:


> Damn, you already did the Oceania II Walkthrough? And 2 Hours long? So the Phoenix Stream will be 40 hours minimum?



Well, the Oceania II walkthrough I just did is basically a walkthrough and then me trying to write music with it (instead of just a patch walkthrough) so considering I don’t Know how to write Chinese music, I think your numbers are rookie numbers and you gotta pump them up. 40 days I reckon 😂


----------



## Lionel Schmitt (Sep 23, 2020)

Laptoprabbit said:


> I'm wondering if COVID forced a halt to recording for the plucked instruments given the variance in sampling depth. The strings, woodwinds, and a few of the plucked i.e. most of the library is at a high quality


I'm sure you would record all RR's in the same session, everything else wouldn't make much sense. If anything some articulations or instruments would be missing, not RR takes. 

But that's one of the reasons I find these pre-orders troubling. Some very important limitations only come to light when users report on them, like here.


----------



## Martin Nyrwal (Sep 23, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Well, the Oceania II walkthrough I just did is basically a walkthrough and then me trying to write music with it (instead of just a patch walkthrough) so considering I don’t Know how to write Chinese music, I think your numbers are rookie numbers and you gotta pump them up. 40 days I reckon 😂


As long as we all speak chinese fluently at the end of the journey, that's fine by me :emoji_dragon_face:


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 23, 2020)

Martin Nyrwal said:


> As long as we all speak chinese fluently at the end of the journey, that's fine by me :emoji_dragon_face:


he's really dragon this one along. By the time he's done he'll have actually romanced the three kingdoms.


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## Nils Neumann (Sep 23, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Is there a way to set the player in Sine so that the performance or mixer menu always appears default?
> In VEPro, when I change a track, I automatically end up in the library menu and have to switch again to the Performance Menu.
> I have built a VEPro template and it is a little annoying to always make that extra click.


No, this is very annoying:/


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## Cheezus (Sep 23, 2020)

Martin Nyrwal said:


> As long as we all speak chinese fluently at the end of the journey, that's fine by me :emoji_dragon_face:


You guys have had this thing for 2 days and you haven't learned Chinese yet?

你們不要這麼懶惰


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## ProfoundSilence (Sep 23, 2020)

Nils Neumann said:


> No, this is very annoying:/



Wonder if there is a way to set the option for "default page on load"

interestingly enough, it makes complete since that it would open the browser first(to addinstruments and get playing) but it's backwards for anyone who plans on just using it in a template format


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Cheezus said:


> You guys have had this thing for 2 days and you haven't learned Chinese yet?
> 
> 你們不要這麼懶惰



I've not been lazy man! I've been lost at sea!


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## Levon (Sep 23, 2020)

Anyone having issues downloading Phoenix Orchestra? I'm downloading one Mic at a time and keep getting this error after I have selected the download destination location: 






I have to close down SINE and then reopen it for the download to then progress.


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Levon said:


> Anyone having issues downloading Phoenix Orchestra? I'm downloading one Mic at a time and keep getting this error after I have selected the download destination location:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you downloading standalone or inside a DAW?

I had problems with JSON a while back and I actually found that downloading it inside my DAW actually worked better (which I thought would have been the total opposite).


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## Levon (Sep 23, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> Are you downloading standalone or inside a DAW?
> 
> I had problems with JSON a while back and I actually found that downloading it inside my DAW actually worked better (which I thought would have been the total opposite).


Downloading standalone.


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Levon said:


> Downloading standalone.



Try in your DAW and see if that makes a difference. I know it sounds absurd but sometimes running around in circles makes you do crazy things that result in unexplainable successful results. I couldn't update any of JXLB until I tried inside DAW (Cubase 10.5.20 for me in this case).


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Ok so I'm not sure when I'm going to do this live walkthrough/writing session on the Phoenix Orchestra. It was going to be tonight but instead I have lost track of time because I was making a thumbnail image for YouTube. This thumbnail for YouTube.

It's good to be productive.


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## Larbguy (Sep 23, 2020)

帅哥哈哈哈！非常好。我真要看！


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Larbguy said:


> 帅哥哈哈哈！非常好。我真要看！



都是好时光。不久，我的英雄！


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## Larbguy (Sep 23, 2020)

jononotbono said:


> 都是好时光。不久，我的英雄！


woooahh 你会说中文马？？


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## jononotbono (Sep 23, 2020)

Larbguy said:


> woooahh 你会说中文马？？





我希望。但是不，我不能。还是没有！


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Sep 24, 2020)

If you have any Cantonese questions, fire away! Sadly I'm no Mandarin speaker, so my pronunciations are less than stellar as well. But you might find this interesting anyway. XD


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## muziksculp (Sep 24, 2020)




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## danwool (Sep 26, 2020)

danwool said:


> Yes. There's no Yangqin ensemble in Jade.


And no Pipa ensemble in PO. ...so it looks like there's a few reasons why composers that are serious about working with these styles (which btw I am *not)* may need both Jade and PO


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## muziksculp (Sep 28, 2020)




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## jononotbono (Oct 1, 2020)

So I made a short video on me trying to write music with Phoenix. Thought I had posted it in this thread but it looks like lack of sleep got the better of me.

Without further adieu, BIG MIDI IN LITTLE CHINA... 😂


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## icecoolpool (Jul 18, 2021)

Now that the hype has died down, are there any instruments in this collection that you would consider "best in class"? With the wonderful "a la carte" menu at hand, I thought about picking up a Guzheng and Erhu but it seems that some users are dissapointed with the velocity layers and round robins.

Additionally, some people are not big fans of the Sine player. Has it improved since the release of this library?


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## holywilly (Jul 18, 2021)

I love Yangqin a2, all Guzheng and Both solo and ensemble Erhu from Phoenix, and use them all the time for mock-up. Definitely worth the price for a la carte.


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## Laptoprabbit (Jul 18, 2021)

icecoolpool said:


> Now that the hype has died down, are there any instruments in this collection that you would consider "best in class"? With the wonderful "a la carte" menu at hand, I thought about picking up a Guzheng and Erhu but it seems that some users are dissapointed with the velocity layers and round robins.
> 
> Additionally, some people are not big fans of the Sine player. Has it improved since the release of this library?



I was one of the users disappointed... for best in class, I'd suggest Embertone's Erhu and Amplesound's Guzheng. More expensive but much deeper


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## jononotbono (Jul 18, 2021)

Phoenix is an amazing sounding library. If you also buy Jade Ethnic and also Dagu Perc then you’ll have a great collection going!


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