# The Starchild - Sample Modeling brass, CSS, Berlin Winds



## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 7, 2018)

Hey Guys,

I finally got sm brass. _First time use for me it as the only brass here_. I got sick and tired not to be able to pull of cohesive musical lines and so ..I builded up a new template, wrote a little exercise for it to test the balance. I used the olympic fanfare from Williams as a starting point for balancing the template. Any thoughts on the sound?

EDIT: FULL TRACK VERSION: 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/afuplgiqevvj0g5/Starchild_Master_V31.mp3?dl=0

Olympic Fanfare mockup for a few bars also:

https://www.dropbox.com/home/CSSBerlinSM?preview=SM_v12_corrected+Volume+Horns_relation+to+trumpets_Bones.mp3


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## col (Sep 7, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> wrote a little exercise


Bloody good exercise.
Almost would have liked a bit more on the close mics on the strings ?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 8, 2018)

col said:


> Bloody good exercise.
> Almost would have liked a bit more on the close mics on the strings ?



Hi Col, 

Excellcent advice. I think it would make sense here to add close micings more. I will add that and will send you a revision. Thank you for taking time checking it out.


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## Saxer (Sep 8, 2018)

Balance is very good. Great mockup and arrangement too! 
For my taste the brass could have more room and stereo width. I often use a classic stereo delay on the brass (timed to 8th or dotted 8th with hi cut) just below hearing threshold level in the mix.


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## brenneisen (Sep 9, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I will add that and will send you a revision.



would love to hear too


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 9, 2018)

Sure guys. I have added now more close micings to Violins 1 and 2 (they were on -13.5 db in the kontakt mixer, now at around -8db, also from Saxers suggestions a bit more reverb on the brass. Dont get confused there are now some piano sketch parts between the orchestrated parts because I am still in the writing process of that piece and I revise sections from time to time. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/duvrpt1onezfwls/Starchild_v9.mp3?dl=0


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## Alatar (Sep 9, 2018)

Hi Alex, 

Heally liking what I am hearing here. 
Beautiful composition and nice sound. 

The only thing that I think could improve: The leagato lines of the instruments are sometimes not smoothly connected. That way you can still here it is a mockup and not real instruments. Currently it sounds like if the musicians are reading the notes for the first time. And some of them don't yet quite know where to put the flow and the legato connections. Maybe you can improve on that?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 9, 2018)

Alatar said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> Heally liking what I am hearing here.
> Beautiful composition and nice sound.
> ...



Thank you Alatar,

Yes, they are not 100 percent in tight sometimes. If you have a specific pointer let me know, but normally I do such final adjustments and tightness when I am done with the rough parts and the general astehtics in orchestration. 
Really you think apart from that it sounds like a real thing. I think you can cloud it more by highcutting at 16-18Khz more because mockups often have overexposed room and tail noise adding in this area. 

I mean..some of string agile lines and runs (44 seconds e.g.) could benefit from detuning during the transitions which CSS (afaik) I know doens´t offer, so I have either to use a different library to cover that or..I write a script for it. Those lines are often played imo more out of tune, tight but the within the section not that super perfect in tune. Maybe I layer them with loose spic from Berlin there.


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## X-Bassist (Sep 9, 2018)

The most rigorous "test" I've heard in a long time. Sounds great. My only question is how long did that just under 3 minutes take you? If you were writing from scratch do you think you could get it to something like this in a day?

I would really like to get to the point with my original writings where they shine like yours, but the time it would take me to tweak everything would add days. For most of the film work I do I usually need to get 3-4 minutes done a day to stay on schedule. Even with a good amount of prep, they don't give me more than that on a feature.

But I'm hoping someday to get close without killing myself.  Congrats on the great templete and the skill to use it well, regardless of time.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Sep 9, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Hey Guys,
> I finally got sm brass. _First time use for me it as the only brass here_. I got sick and tired not to be able to pull of cohesive musical lines and so ..I builded up a new template, wrote a little exercise for it to test the balance. I used the olympic fanfare from Williams as a starting point for balancing the template. Any thoughts on the sound?
> 
> 
> ...



It sounds smoother than some of your older tracks. I think if you work on mixing of the brass a bit more, you'll get better results overall from the SM stuff compared to samples (as your writing demands that ultimately flexibility).


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 9, 2018)

X-Bassist said:


> The most rigorous "test" I've heard in a long time. Sounds great. My only question is how long did that just under 3 minutes take you? If you were writing from scratch do you think you could get it to something like this in a day?
> 
> I would really like to get to the point with my original writings where they shine like yours, but the time it would take me to tweak everything would add days. For most of the film work I do I usually need to get 3-4 minutes done a day to stay on schedule. Even with a good amount of prep, they don't give me more than that on a feature.
> 
> But I'm hoping someday to get close without killing myself.  Congrats on the great templete and the skill to use it well, regardless of time.





Just quick to answer your questions: My tip for getting more into that 7th chords writing and other devices like using minor 7th and tensions on purpose with resolution is to transcribe a lot of Williams themes and underscores. You will find good material to study in Superman, E.T, Indiana Jones, and SW main title. The piece in general took 1-2 days just to sketch out with some refinements I a bit longer. Those stuff can be just for your personal benefit. You may not apply this to your commercial writings because it sounds dated and almost nobody wants to hire someone to do that these days.



SimonCharlesHanna said:


> It sounds smoother than some of your older tracks. I think if you work on mixing of the brass a bit more, you'll get better results overall from the SM stuff compared to samples (as your writing demands that ultimately flexibility).



Hi Simon,
Has probably to do with the flexibility of the library where I can shit around with expression note length variation and everything what SM brass offers. I also beeing able to perform the lines much more accurate with an "intention". I sing in my mind the lines often before and imitate that you know.

Sure mixing...I think the balance is pretty accurate and solid. Sometimes the horns have at louder dynamics a bit of low mid bonkdonk which I could use some subtractive dynamic eq automation for. Though when I listen to stuff like battle beyond the stars (1982) it has a very similiar sound. If I want that I am getting there not to surgically dismiss all those little imperfections..


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Sep 10, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Just quick to answer your questions: My tip for getting more into that 7th chords writing and other devices like using minor 7th and tensions on purpose with resolution is to transcribe a lot of Williams themes and underscores. You will find good material to study in Superman, E.T, Indiana Jones, and SW main title. The piece in general took 1-2 days just to sketch out with some refinements I a bit longer. Those stuff can be just for your personal benefit. You may not apply this to your commercial writings because it sounds dated and almost nobody wants to hire someone to do that these days.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mixing wise I was more talking about the instruments, character and space rather than relative levels (which I know is really tough with sampled instruments).

Great job though.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 10, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Mixing wise I was more talking about the instruments, character and space rather than relative levels (which I know is really tough with sampled instruments).
> 
> Great job though.



Yes, any suggestions from you? Let me know, I am very interested in thoughts in order to learn things. Thank you


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Sep 10, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yes, any suggestions from you? Let me know, I am very interested in thoughts in order to learn things. Thank you


Not from me sorry. I do own them but I never spent enough time with them


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 11, 2018)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Not from me sorry. I do own them but I never spent enough time with them



I see! Makes me wonder why you didn´t? I know it is not easy but imo that library is very rewarding when you spent more time with it? At least I feel so.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 11, 2018)

little update..
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vda1escbh8c2s1k/Starchild_v11.mp3?dl=0


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Sep 11, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> I see! Makes me wonder why you didn´t? I know it is not easy but imo that library is very rewarding when you spent more time with it? At least I feel so.


at the time I was still relatively new to composing so I didn't know enough about the instruments to work with it + mix them.

Ill check out your updated version shortly


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## TheSigillite (Sep 11, 2018)

Awesome update! #orchestrationgoals I love how you take the main theme and skillfully present it with different variations. It certainly doesn't feel like 5 minutes. Do you find when you get a new library you spend a lot of time working with it to get to know how to use it more effectively or do you just throw it in the mix and learn it as you go? Thanks for the update. Can't wait to hear more.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 12, 2018)

TheSigillite said:


> Awesome update! #orchestrationgoals I love how you take the main theme and skillfully present it with different variations. It certainly doesn't feel like 5 minutes. Do you find when you get a new library you spend a lot of time working with it to get to know how to use it more effectively or do you just throw it in the mix and learn it as you go? Thanks for the update. Can't wait to hear more.



Sure, here is the mindcrap from today. Sure, working with one library for a longer time lets you work more effective with it, to strengh of the library and avoiding the weak points. The more you spent with it the better your results get imo. Sure there are limitations, but trust me.. it definitely pais of. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fh2i1a6qf7k3ccv/Starchild_v14.mp3?dl=0


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## Saxer (Sep 12, 2018)

Great textures and development! I like the rather dry mix. Bright smile when listening through! 
Sometimes I think the strings are pumping or sucking on chord changes and fast lines are going to smear like pad sounds instead of string section blur. But beside of that nitpicky fuss: fantastic work!


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## TheSigillite (Sep 12, 2018)

Great update. I hope you don't mind the questions, but I have a few more. Very much like how you can work with a motif throughout an entire peace like that without sounding repetitious. When you compose, do you continuously consider how you want to modulate or vary your motif or do you, at this stage, just do it naturally? You also have a great talent for orchestration, I believe I read a post in the last three months (been lurking here for that long) you mentioned you transcribe 24/7. How far in detail do you go into each transcription (complete orchestral mockup, or perhaps piano roll with piano and melody)? I really appreciate all the answers and the time you take out of your busy day to do this.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 12, 2018)

Saxer said:


> Great textures and development! I like the rather dry mix. Bright smile when listening through!
> Sometimes I think the strings are pumping or sucking on chord changes and fast lines are going to smear like pad sounds instead of string section blur. But beside of that nitpicky fuss: fantastic work!


Could be the programming which is at that stage not 100..some timings..I normally go when the track is done back and solo the string sections and reprogram timings. Apart from that: Any ideas about section blurring?



TheSigillite said:


> Great update. I hope you don't mind the questions, but I have a few more. Very much like how you can work with a motif throughout an entire peace like that without sounding repetitious. When you compose, do you continuously consider how you want to modulate or vary your motif or do you, at this stage, just do it naturally? You also have a great talent for orchestration, I believe I read a post in the last three months (been lurking here for that long) you mentioned you transcribe 24/7. How far in detail do you go into each transcription (complete orchestral mockup, or perhaps piano roll with piano and melody)? I really appreciate all the answers and the time you take out of your busy day to do this.



Thats a very broad subject..The motif here is rather simple so of course I keep on modulating quite a lot. But its not only that. Another part is the way how I modulate which is often in little increments from bar to bar so that you can feel something changes but it is not always so obvious. I transcribe a a lot yes, and I compose everyday. No, when I transcribe I am only interested in the core aspect of the idea, so I reduce it to melody, chords, bass, thats it. And its important because it teaches you not only the harmony and how melody interacts with the chords but also it trains you to understand what is the core of a piece. Then I practise what I transcribed also everyday, and I repeat all of that. After a while it becomes a part of you. But you need to have a mindset for that. It is not a normal life sometimes in that regards.


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## Saxer (Sep 12, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Apart from that: Any ideas about section blurring?


One idea for blurring is a little trick used in CinematicStrings2: the runs-patch is a stack of velocity controlled staccato notes with an overlay of half note trills controlled by CC1. CS2 is a very roomy library and the runs-patch works really well. I don't know why Alex Wallbank didn't use this trick in CSS too. Maybe CSS is not wet enough to blend?

In LASS it worked good to use the divisi sections and just detune them. Didn't use for a while though. Should work the same way with all other libraries too. 

HW Strings and Berlin Strings have sampled blurred shorts.

I mostly use Dimension Strings where the humanizing feature can detune all instruments against each other when playing fast.


Here's the demo video of CS2:


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 12, 2018)

Saxer said:


> One idea for blurring is a little trick used in CinematicStrings2: the runs-patch is a stack of velocity controlled staccato notes with an overlay of half note trills controlled by CC1. CS2 is a very roomy library and the runs-patch works really well. I don't know why Alex Wallbank didn't use this trick in CSS too. Maybe CSS is not wet enough to blend?
> 
> In LASS it worked good to use the divisi sections and just detune them. Didn't use for a while though. Should work the same way with all other libraries too.
> 
> ...




CSS has staccs and hf trills too. Let me see if I can work something out..Yes in BS I used the blurred shorts a lot for that matter, they worked damn good for that also because they are not in tune and so you have that slight imperfections which emulates a bit of that real runs feeling. Maybe I could replace them with that. Lets see :D
Thank you for the detailed info, Torsten  much appreciated that you take your time in helping me out.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 20, 2018)

Yo guys, full track version here: 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/afuplgiqevvj0g5/Starchild_Master_V31.mp3?dl=0

I updated the first post also. 

However..8 minutes..lets see who makes it through it..


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## TheSigillite (Sep 21, 2018)

Awesome. I did listen through all of it. I really shouldn't have tho. You did such a great job on that motif that when I sat down to mess with some brass I couldn't get it out of my head last time I listened to your piece. lol. Had to try to mess with other libraries for a cleansing. This full track is great work! I look forward to the next one.


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## Loïc D (Sep 21, 2018)

Listened to it fully. Very nice work, I like it a lot. Very very 70's / 80's golden age style of scoring.
The brass are truly outstanding. The mix is very coherent and it's a pleasure to listen to.
To be nitpicking, I'd say that the timpani hits (on the left) have a loud resonance around 100Hz that's a bit overwhelming in the mix (notably in the first minute).
Congratulations !!!


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## Alex Fraser (Sep 21, 2018)

Classy stuff Alex. Inspirational as always. Like you mentioned earlier, it's such a shame this style is out of fashion.


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## Paul T McGraw (Sep 23, 2018)

Awesome track. Love it!


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## Henu (Sep 28, 2018)

Alex Fraser said:


> ....this style is out of fashion.



NEVER! And btw, I find it hard to believe that this is not a real orchestra. Fuck all my current brass libraries, if Samplemodelling can do this, I'm going to start practicing even more with it right away and redoing my template afterwards. :D


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Sep 28, 2018)

Henu said:


> NEVER! And btw, I find it hard to believe that this is not a real orchestra. Fuck all my current brass libraries, if Samplemodelling can do this, I'm going to start practicing even more with it right away and redoing my template afterwards. :D


Answer: All samples and yes it can.


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## Henu (Sep 28, 2018)

Yeah, of course I _believe_ and know it's all samples as you wrote that earlier- it's not a matter of that, but just that my brain is playing tricks on me.  Now excuse me while I go back to noodling with the SM Horns again. :D


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## MartinH. (Oct 1, 2018)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Yo guys, full track version here:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/afuplgiqevvj0g5/Starchild_Master_V31.mp3?dl=0
> 
> ...



Awesome track, gave me good Star Trek nostalgia!


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Oct 1, 2018)

MartinH. said:


> Awesome track, gave me good Star Trek nostalgia!



Awesome man, thanks a lot! :D


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