# Risking it. ignoring the obvious composition and trying for something new. did that work for you?



## impressions (Jan 15, 2014)

Just when you try to be original and give your client something unique and different, they reject it.
usually its on commercial gigs where they don't take ANY chances.

its like they're sitting there in their conferences, saying:" there is the thing that worked for these guys, so we're gonna use the same cloning".

the cowardness! is that why they went into an artistic profession? so they can clone stuff that "work"? instead of being, oh i don't know, creative?

I usually don't do that alot of these risking out, but sometimes i feel adventurous, to give something abit more than the usual. 

I wonder did that ever work for anyone? did anyone try to be extra creative on a commercial gig? how successful were you in that? I've done some composition in a workshop and the producers there actually encouraged me that being unique is great when its effective, much better than the obvious. and some clients complimented on other non-obvious stuff, but its rare.

did you ever fight for your artistic experiment? saying the project will benefit even more with it?
I thought about arguing with them about it, but I have a very distinct feeling they won't hear me out at all on the matter.

would love to hear some real life experiences in this.


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## gsilbers (Jan 15, 2014)

well, i guess thats why they call it a job 

your risk, their risks, their companies risk, their clients risk , their sales risk. 

dont fight it, yes suggest but if they say no, whatever... do what they want and move on. 
and if there is time make both safe and risky versions and present it to see their reactions. 

not only might they like it but they might like it for other things/projects. 

i did do trailer libearies and i did two tracks. one was generic epic and the other was wierd future- outthere etc which i thought was the coolest thing. client only took the generic epic. 
but the other one was up for grabs for another project...


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## rJames (Jan 15, 2014)

Impressions, the one place where you can do that and be successful with it is in writing library music.

If you have a vision of something new and unique and you believe that it will be very usefull, you can just produce it.

Publishing and getting people to listen is a "whole 'nother thing".

But it can be done.


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## impressions (Jan 15, 2014)

gsilbers, exactly, but it still surprises me when people in the creative business can be so dull and un-adventurous.

rJames,I have quite a few rejected/pitched tracks I could send to libraries, but i never had the time to start looking for one to send.
and the other reason is I don't want to join the market that destroys our work. yes i know its futile, but if i can still avoid it-i will.


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## doctornine (Jan 16, 2014)

impressions @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> gsilbers, exactly, but it still surprises me when people in the creative business can be so dull and un-adventurous.
> 
> rJames,I have quite a few rejected/pitched tracks I could send to libraries, but i never had the time to start looking for one to send.
> and the other reason is I don't want to join the market that destroys our work. yes i know its futile, but if i can still avoid it-i will.



Library music is the market which destroys your work ?

Well, gee, that's what I do for a living...... Who knew I was such a musical terrorist ?
Yay, go me.

=o


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## impressions (Jan 16, 2014)

Jonathan I respect your work. but- first of all-everyone is entitled to their opinion as i recall, in a liberal society?

and second, library music does that very easily since they sell music extremely cheap, so if library music didn't exist-they would have to pay YOU alot more by ordering it directly from you instead of whoring it in the web.

I understand not everyone can write for a specific target. but I'm just not going to support this, sorry.

I've had too many cases of clients preferring to buy very cheap music regardless of what I've pitched for, just because it was cheaper.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 16, 2014)

Actually just recently I "got away with" doing something that wasn't what the director expected or usually likes. But he bought it instantly. I know he loves traditional symphonic music but I felt the short film which has a time travel theme, needed a more subtle, electronic approach (although still using strings and other symphonic instruments sparsely, but often in a more sound design-ish way).

It all depends on who you are working with. There are people that I know I should never even bother trying anything different from what we have talked about doing and there are people who are much more open to a fresh approach. I think that if you have an idea that you think works better than what was originally discussed you should give it a shot - at least until you get to know the director/producer/whoever enough so that you know if he/she is open for fresh suggestions. I also think it is fun trying something yourself that you didn't do before.


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## Waywyn (Jan 16, 2014)

Hello I am a painter, I mostly get hired to paint white walls, but I get sick of it, so I simply paint some unique tree in impressionistic style or a Roy Lichtenstein like print pattern. Would that work? NO!

... unless what Simon said, you know the person well you are working with and your suggestions and idea are not some egoistic attempt to "save the world from artistic decay", but something which makes sense for the project (again ... NOT for you!)

You are always part of: project
It is not: project feat. composer


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 16, 2014)

... oh and, as Waywyn said, in many types of projects, it is not your job to decide what works and what doesn't. If you are told specifically to sound like this, I don't see much point in going in a totally different direction. Often you are just "work for hire" and you should basically just do what you are told. I think this is especially true for advertising work, but I have also done this countless times for film. It is a time saver for you, although it might not be as creative an assignment.


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## impressions (Jan 16, 2014)

Waywyn @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Hello I am a painter, I mostly get hired to paint white walls, but I get sick of it, so I simply paint some unique tree in impressionistic style or a Roy Lichtenstein like print pattern. Would that work? NO!
> 
> ... unless what Simon said, you know the person well you are working with and your suggestions and idea are not some egoistic attempt to "save the world from artistic decay", but something which makes sense for the project (again ... NOT for you!)
> 
> ...



wow alex, I think i deserve a little more credit than that. if that wasn't clear I meant it will sound better for the project-not to fill my artistic needs(for that I just use my spare time, whenever that comes)!


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## doctornine (Jan 16, 2014)

impressions @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Jonathan I respect your work. but- first of all-everyone is entitled to their opinion as i recall, in a liberal society?
> 
> and second, library music does that very easily since they sell music extremely cheap, so if library music didn't exist-they would have to pay YOU alot more by ordering it directly from you instead of whoring it in the web.
> 
> ...



hah, of course you're entitled to an opinion. But to be fair I think you confuse Library Music with the cheap crap "royalty free track for 5$ or less" that the internet is awash with right now.

Thats not library music as I know it 

But getting back to your original post.... doing library gives me the freedom to run wild with crazy mashups of genres and ideas that probably shouldn't work. And thats why I do it. Oh, and for the money, obviously.

~o)


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## Gabriel2013 (Jan 16, 2014)

Waywyn @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> Hello I am a painter, I mostly get hired to paint white walls, but I get sick of it, so I simply paint some unique tree in impressionistic style or a Roy Lichtenstein like print pattern. Would that work? NO!



+1

If you want to be original write concert music and get a sponsor or finance yourself.

In film scoring you are not in control of the project, so the trick is to write what they want and put some new stuff in the middle (hope that they don't notice).

If you become successful everybody will start copying you, and new stuff will become the norm :D


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## jonathanwright (Jan 16, 2014)

It's worth noting that because we compose music, we hear music day in, day out, so love it when we can listen to/create something a bit different as it makes a change.

However, clients generally don't have that issue, so will just hear something a like it.

It's like food critics, they have to eat food all the time, so when something different comes along they tend to love it, where as to the outside observer it could be something you wouldn't eat, ever!

I think I've just confused myself explaining my point!


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## KEnK (Jan 16, 2014)

I do get the occasional film gig but I'm actually not driven to seek it out 
as a so called career. 
Threads like this remind me of why.

Thing is, I'm kind of old school at age 56.

I swear that film music was not always so confined contrived and limited 
as it is these days.

In the last century your artistic vision was not only welcomed, 
but what they were paying you for.

I think one of problems creating this situation has been how
easy it is for a director to drop some piece of temp crap behind their "vision".

Another example of technology making it easy making it crappy.

More is less in this case.

Any other old school composers think that?

k


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

impressions @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> and second, library music does that very easily since they sell music extremely cheap, so if library music didn't exist-they would have to pay YOU alot more by ordering it directly from you instead of whoring it in the web.
> 
> I understand not everyone can write for a specific target. but I'm just not going to support this, sorry.
> 
> I've had too many cases of clients preferring to buy very cheap music regardless of what I've pitched for, just because it was cheaper.



I sometimes put up music here I do that is destined for the library. That's all I do. Library music. The stuff I write is to order. They tell me the style/genre they want and I try and do it. A lot of it gets rejected and I have to start again.

I don't regard the library I write for as putting up music that is cheap, cheap sounding or generally crap in anyway. 
I watch TV and listen to the music explicitly written for any given program I happen to watch and a lot of it is crap. They just got paid more. A lot of it is good. And they just got paid more.

If you think you write better music than library writers then put it up so I can listen and get ideas.

You need to understand this. Library music, or hybrid forms of that model, IS THE WAY IT WILL GO. Whether anyone here likes it or not. That is the the future model. Make no mistake.


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## doctornine (Jan 16, 2014)

What Adrian says +1

I wish I could discuss some of the things I'm currently working on, then again, from a business perspective it'd probably terrify you


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## rJames (Jan 16, 2014)

impressions @ Wed Jan 15 said:


> rJames,I have quite a few rejected/pitched tracks I could send to libraries, but i never had the time to start looking for one to send.
> and the other reason is I don't want to join the market that destroys our work. yes i know its futile, but if i can still avoid it-i will.



So, your idea of music that can change the world are your rejected tracks?

Instead of writing just what your artistic muse inspires you to write, you will rather submit music to the guys who are saying,


> " there is the thing that worked for these guys, so we're gonna use the same cloning".



BTW if library music is destroying your work, then you are in the wrong business space. Libraries will seldom compete where score is needed. Score will seldom compete where libraries are needed.

Ron


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## syashdown (Jan 16, 2014)

Hey guys, I just started a topic on library music if anyone's interested...

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... =1#3762398


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

rJames @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> So, your idea of music that can change the world are your rejected tracks?



Course he does! He's an artist! :lol:


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## impressions (Jan 16, 2014)

> So, your idea of music that can change the world are your rejected tracks?


So, are your rejected tracks is how you've become a library composer?
because you just couldn't write well enough for an actual project, with actual people?



> Instead of writing just what your artistic muse inspires you to write, you will rather submit music to the guys who are saying,



"instead of writing just what your artistic muses inspires you", why don't you just write in any genre on any media for a developer/director and get payed for it, like me? instead of whoring music.



> BTW if library music is destroying your work, then you are in the wrong business space. Libraries will seldom compete where score is needed. Score will seldom compete where libraries are needed.



BTW libraries do compete, otherwise people/companies wouldn't buy them. 
Libraries regularly compete, large scale series like CSI and others use them, to create uninspiring clips in each chapter with those library tracks. 



> You need to understand this. Library music, or hybrid forms of that model, IS THE WAY IT WILL GO. Whether anyone here likes it or not. That is the the future model. Make no mistake.



OH PRAISE THE LORD, but no. I think it is already gone far enough thank you very much. it practically ruined the whole director/composer relationship, or developer-composer, and made way to a generic, sea of clones of music tracks which are as boring as the people who buy them and consume them. I don't see anything good out of it. very sorry. there are very few directors like Quentin Tarntino, if you know what I mean.

but jonathan's music is pretty cool actually. I'm talking about what I was forced to hear.


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## rJames (Jan 16, 2014)

impressions @ Thu Jan 16 said:


> rjames said:
> 
> 
> > So, your idea of music that can change the world are your rejected tracks?
> ...



Did you just say, "na-na-na-na-na-naaaa-naaa, right back at you?" 

Wow! OK then.

FWIW I write what I want, when I want. If you call that whoring then we have a different definition of the word.

Whoring is more like doing something you really don't want to do but you'll do it because you have to. Whoops, that's what you described at the beginning of this thread.

But to be serious...I was suggesting to you that you can write your own definition of art and get paid for it. But you have to put a little thought into it.


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## AC986 (Jan 16, 2014)

Well OK I can see you've become very upset and agitated with a sudden and if I may say do, rather frightening invocation of The Lord so I will leave it at that.


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## impressions (Jan 16, 2014)

oh the innocence..

"Course he does! He's an artist!".

"music that can change the world are your rejected tracks" ,"you are in the wrong business space"

and the lord thing was a joke about your misguided fantacism.


> Whoring is more like doing something you really don't want to do but you'll do it because you have to. Whoops, that's what you described at the beginning of this thread.



no what i've described is people who fear being creative because of the risk in it. while being in the creative business. that's clients for you.
I can be as creative as I want in any frame you'll give me. the argument in the beginning of the thread is if a composer can change that frame.
apparently in some cases, yes.


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## Greg (Jan 16, 2014)

Try? All the time.
Fail? Usually.


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## Jacob Cadmus (Jan 17, 2014)

The way I see it, the best composers are the ones who can inject their niche/unique voice within the guidelines they are given. Granted, I've never worked on a commercial gig, but every gig that I have gotten always had standards for me to abide by. Even when faced with the dreadful task of making mundane, generic music that has been heard in every film of the past decade, there's ALWAYS a way to make it your own and to please the client at the same time; aka compromise.

The fact that you got hired in the first place means that your client(s) are willing to compromise. Otherwise, they might have just gone with library music from the get-go.


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## Markus S (Jan 18, 2014)

It's possible. I know one composer who does this. He will talk back to the client because he believes in his vision, and walks away from projects if he cannot get an artistic understanding.

I don't do this myself, mind you, but I surely admire him for it. Needless to say his music is far above average.


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## impressions (Jan 21, 2014)

Markus S @ Sat Jan 18 said:


> It's possible. I know one composer who does this. He will talk back to the client because he believes in his vision, and walks away from projects if he cannot get an artistic understanding.
> 
> I don't do this myself, mind you, but I surely admire him for it. Needless to say his music is far above average.


is it possible to reveal his name? I'm probably off my league but I wonder how he managed to get by with this approach.


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