# 8DIO Shepard Tones



## dpasdernick (Sep 28, 2017)

Is this a new staple library or gimmick of the month due to Dunkirk? I have as few songs that I feel this could work well in but I'm nervous I'd buy it and it wouldn't work out. 

Maybe I could sample my own Shepard if I could find one... They're a bit thin on the ground these days but one many run into a flock of two on their way to Starbucks.

Thoughts?


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## VinRice (Sep 28, 2017)

Oh God, this isn't going to become a thing is it? I hate Shepard tones. They are the exact opposite of music.


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## Replicant (Sep 28, 2017)

I promised myself I wouldn't go on a rant, 

but $#%* it, I'm going on a rant:

Troels has to be trollin'. This is a god damn _riser generator_ and they want 138 USD for it PLUS the full-version of kontakt if you don't have it. Not to mention that shepard tones aren't rocket science to create. So that's probably around $600, Canadian, if someone wanted to go from zero to 8Dio Shepard Tones; which I can't imagine why they would, but that's totally beside the point.

I just don't understand how 8Dio (and some others) arrive at the prices of many of their products, when they aren't even compatible with the Kontakt Player and don't offer much of anything objectively superior to the competition. I assume it must be pros / people with just too much money to spend who make up a sizeable portion of their customers. 

Like, are the Agitato strings _actually_ so much better than everything else on the market that they're worth over 1,000 USD, and this is again after purchasing full Kontakt? 

CSS is on the market, seems to offer just as much, works in the player, and thus is _less than half the price._


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 28, 2017)

A "shepard tone" is just one of those catchy terms you can sell to idiots as arcane magic in Youtube videos and mainstream media. It's one of those things that draw the attention of people who also get excited about the "genius talent" of street musicians with delay/loop pedals and guitars in DADGAD tuning.


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## Daniel James (Sep 28, 2017)

I picked it up. I was looking for some gentle long risers that I can goto when I dont have the time to make my own (which I can do if I need XD)

Actually pretty useful, good variations, will be getting plenty of use on a current gig.

I don't care if it is cool or not. If it makes my life easier, and it works for the project, its worth it to me 

-DJ


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## babylonwaves (Sep 28, 2017)

it's just another collection of risers. the only difference is that those are "infinite" (which can be fairly useful). Sheppard tones are around for ages and nothing new or revolutionary in Dunkirk. Listen to David Julyan's The Prestige soundtrack from 2006 for instance, he's using them quiet beautifully.


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## tabulius (Sep 29, 2017)

Daniel James said:


> I picked it up. I was looking for some gentle long risers that I can goto when I dont have the time to make my own (which I can do if I need XD)
> 
> Actually pretty useful, good variations, will be getting plenty of use on a current gig.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly. This is an usable tension fx library for my line of work.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 29, 2017)

Can't wait for "Volume 2 : Ticking Clocks" ! :/


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## Mike Marino (Sep 29, 2017)

With the amount of bitching in this thread you'd think you guys were forced to buy the product...


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## VinRice (Sep 29, 2017)

Mike Marino said:


> With the amount of bitching in this thread you'd think you guys were forced to buy the product...



Don't you understand that it is imperative to purchase every single library? In case, a) it contains the one piece of inspiration that will stop you from eternally sucking at music; or b) it contains the one cool sound that would have got you that gig instead of that other fella who has ALL the libraries.


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## VinRice (Sep 29, 2017)

...so I bought it. ($88 minus a 10% coupon and no VAT for the UK, AND I have the exact cue where a Shepard Tone was 'requested')


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## jononotbono (Sep 29, 2017)

Anyone point me in the direction of a Video tutorial on how to create my own Shepard Tone Risers? Interested in learning how they work and how to make them!


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## Quasar (Sep 29, 2017)

Michael at VSauce explains what they are here:



They work by simply dropping one of the waveforms down an octave every so often while the others continue rise, alternating which one you drop. It sounds easy enough to do


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## jononotbono (Sep 29, 2017)

Quasar said:


> Michael at VSauce explains what they are here:
> 
> 
> 
> They work by simply dropping one of the waveforms down an octave every so often while the others continue rise, alternating which one you drop. It sounds easy enough to do




Ok thanks. I rarely find anything good to be easy to do


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## mac (Sep 29, 2017)

VinRice said:


> ...so I bought it. ($88 minus a 10% coupon and no VAT for the UK, AND I have the exact cue where a Shepard Tone was 'requested')



Oh god, are directors asking for 'shepard tone' pieces now?


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## paulmatthew (Sep 29, 2017)

Mike Marino said:


> With the amount of bitching in this thread you'd think you guys were forced to buy the product...


No kidding . Some people just rail on 8dio for some reason . It's like the HZ Perc commercial thread going on . I've read next to nothing in that thread about the sound or use of it , just a lot of complaining about paying for an update and how to wriggle the best deal in the future . How has it come to this in so many threads ?


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## Fab (Sep 29, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> DADGAD tuning.



^pretty awesome tuning though, just don't do it for too long else people will catch on!

Maybe guitar shops should just have everything tuned to DADGAD...


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## uditprakash (Sep 29, 2017)

After the huge over use of inception BRAMMM, this.


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## Polkasound (Sep 29, 2017)

You can't blame 8Dio for being smart enough to jump on the crest of a wave while it's rolling by. Some of us may see the Shepherd Tone library as the fidget spinner of virtual instruments, but none of us can deny those fidget spinners made someone a multi-millionaire.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 29, 2017)

Polkasound said:


> You can't blame 8Dio for being smart enough to jump on the crest of a wave while it's rolling by. Some of us may see the Shepherd Tone library as the fidget spinner of virtual instruments, but none of us can deny those fidget spinners made someone a multi-millionaire.



Well, sorry for the huge Off topic but :

"As the inventor of the original fidget spinner – the ubiquitous new toy that has quickly become a craze in playgrounds around the world – Catherine Hettinger should be enjoying the high life. But the Florida-based creator is not making a penny off her genius invention, even as global sales of the gadget she envisioned two decades ago as a way to entertain her seven-year-old daughter."

Full story : https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.the...t-spinner-inventor-patent-catherine-hettinger

That's all I had to say.


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## Polkasound (Sep 29, 2017)

Heheheh! OK, then let's go with the Hula Hoop.


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## bigcat1969 (Sep 29, 2017)

If anyone wants to try a little single sample freebie of a Shepard Tone. 60 second wave. 
From a public domain sample by EnjoyPA on freesound.org
Requires Kontakt 5.6.8

http://www.mediafire.com/file/8pyyifhq2q2ipxq/Shepard_Note.zip

CC0 / Public domain

Obviously 8Dio has a bazillion heavily crafted samples. This is just a little idea of what a Shepard Tone is in a Kontakt instrument.


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## NoamL (Sep 29, 2017)

So maybe I'm stating the obvious here but the "Shepard tone" in Dunkirk is not a sound design effect, right? it's an orchestration effect. Every time Hans cycles through the A BC DEb FGb G#A thing (octatonic rise!  ) he's cycling back around to the bottom of the next layer. And actually it's not a true Shepard effect, it's more of an oblique effect as the top layer is rising and leaving "trails" of octaves below it, while the bass stays the same.

What I found most interesting about the score is the track "The Oil". No spoilers but it's the dramatic climax of the film & the moment when multiple plotlines that have been moving at different "speeds" intersect.

And if you listen closely you can hear HZ is doing the octatonic riser at "full" speed, 2x speed, and 1/2 speed simultaneously. It's more of his metric trickery just like Inception and Interstellar!

Just releasing a library and calling it "Shepard Tones" doesn't get at what's really being done compositionally in this score...


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## SillyMidOn (Sep 29, 2017)

or you could just use this: https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/shepardAudioIllusionToneGenerator.php


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## Quasar (Sep 29, 2017)

Mike Marino said:


> With the amount of bitching in this thread you'd think you guys were forced to buy the product...


Thanks for this. I got an email from8Dio, and thought it was mandatory.


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## MillsMixx (Sep 29, 2017)

paulmatthew said:


> No kidding . Some people just rail on 8dio for some reason . It's like the HZ Perc commercial thread going on . I've read next to nothing in that thread about the sound or use of it , just a lot of complaining about paying for an update and how to wriggle the best deal in the future . How has it come to this in so many threads ?



Yes. I would like to know what people think of the library who have actually bought it and used it. What's the content and the sounds like? Can you give us some more insight from a buyer's/owners perspective as Trolls can (and usually does in his walkthroughs) make anything look and sound great.


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## Mornats (Sep 29, 2017)

I've been looking for a riser library for a short while now and this has caught my eye. Risers with a twist? Could be very interesting!


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## David Chappell (Sep 29, 2017)

If anyone can get use of a basic rising Shepard tone, I made a quick couple of presets for Serum that achieve the effect. Just open 2 instances of Serum, load up the high layer in one and low in the other, have them play the same note and you'll get a Shepard tone. It needs two separate presets as there are 4 voices total which each need 2 LFO shapes - couldn't get satisfactory results with just 2 voices. The illusion seems more effective with more voices. You can change the rate of rise by changing the LFO 1/2/3/4 in each preset. It's 16 bars by default. It'll work on any key but the lower keys are probably best as otherwise it's a bit piercing. This is just a basic sine wave Shepard tone but you can change the wavetables if you want to get something a bit crazier. 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7kvtvxhiatghku6/AACWGq7SLN_hzozL-BDqKAQga?dl=0


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## VinRice (Sep 29, 2017)

mac said:


> Oh god, are directors asking for 'shepard tone' pieces now?



I kid you not...


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## VinRice (Sep 29, 2017)

Actually the library is pretty good fun. I think it's worth it at the present $88 level. It would take you a long time to make similar quality tones even though the principle is very straightforward. The straight Shepard tones can be as annoying as you might imagine but there are some nice sounds there and you can gate them and mangle them a bit to add interest. The risers though are very useful. They are Shepard tone sets but they are also rising in pitch/filtration a little. This means you can suit yourself as to when to transition out making them easy to integrate


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## sostenuto (Sep 29, 2017)

Feeling VERY ignorant, but now stirred up by this Thread !  Before spending 'more' $$$ ... thought 'The Riser' library (AIR Music Tech) would surely have something similar to 8DIO. Even have (2) Expansions. 
Nothing like 'Shepard Tones', but maybe in _Pitch Risers or Atonal Pitch Risers _??

Sorry ... duuuuhhhh


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## kurtvanzo (Sep 29, 2017)

VinRice said:


> ...so I bought it. ($88 minus a 10% coupon and no VAT for the UK, AND I have the exact cue where a Shepard Tone was 'requested')



Where did you find the 10% off coupon? Care to share?


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## BenHicks (Sep 29, 2017)

Quasar said:


> Michael at VSauce explains what they are here:




Oh, great. Now I have to spend the rest of the day going on another Vsauce video binge. Thanks for that.


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## VinRice (Sep 29, 2017)

kurtvanzo said:


> Where did you find the 10% off coupon? Care to share?



It just popped up when visiting the site and signing up for email shots.


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## Mornats (Oct 1, 2017)

I got it with the 10% off from the email signup so for around £60 it's quite a fun and useful riser and tension library. Be prepared to purge ram in it all the time though. Some patches load in between 1.5 and 4 (yes 4!) GB.

I've still to play around with the randomisation of the presets and for some reason the sequencer doesn't seem at all useful yet so I'll have to go and take a look at that in more detail.


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## Leon Portelance (Oct 1, 2017)

Bought it too. 10% off.


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## Krayh (Oct 1, 2017)

I'm still waiting for braaaaaaam 3.0 version...


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## AR (Oct 2, 2017)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> A "shepard tone" is just one of those catchy terms you can sell to idiots as arcane magic in Youtube videos and mainstream media. It's one of those things that draw the attention of people who also get excited about the "genius talent" of street musicians with delay/loop pedals and guitars in DADGAD tuning.


Hahaaaa I love that Jimmy: "...street musicians with loop pedals and Drop D tuning". Awesome!!!


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## Trusong (Oct 2, 2017)

VinRice said:


> Actually the library is pretty good fun. I think it's worth it at the present $88 level. It would take you a long time to make similar quality tones even though the principle is very straightforward. The straight Shepard tones can be as annoying as you might imagine but there are some nice sounds there and you can gate them and mangle them a bit to add interest. The risers though are very useful. They are Shepard tone sets but they are also rising in pitch/filtration a little. This means you can suit yourself as to when to transition out making them easy to integrate


Thanks for your feedback. It's great to get actual user comments instead of the moanings around those posts.


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## krops (Oct 2, 2017)

It's funny how defensive some people get when companies try to rake in some money on the latest fad. That's simply how this game works. 

Personally, I find the effect pretty enticing. For owners of Reaktor, this ensemble is pretty cool. Synthy, obviously, but it's fun to play around with. 

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/reaktor-community/reaktor-user-library/entry/show/6403/


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## babylonwaves (Oct 2, 2017)

krops said:


> or owners of Reaktor, this ensemble is pretty cool


ha, thanks. you saved me some time searching for an reaktor ensemble


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## sostenuto (Oct 2, 2017)

krops said:


> It's funny how defensive some people get when companies try to rake in some money on the latest fad. That's simply how this game works.
> 
> Personally, I find the effect pretty enticing. For owners of Reaktor, this ensemble is pretty cool. Synthy, obviously, but it's fun to play around with.
> 
> https://www.native-instruments.com/en/reaktor-community/reaktor-user-library/entry/show/6403/



So cool !! Just downloaded and hoping Reaktor 6 can use this oldie.

THX !!


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## mc_deli (Oct 2, 2017)

SillyMidOn said:


> or you could just use this: https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/shepardAudioIllusionToneGenerator.php


Ha!
I'm like... Viasat are using a shepard tone during the static breaks between programs...!!! someone in the edit room is taking the p***...!!! 20 mins later I realise I have had this web page open in another browser tab all evening!


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## sostenuto (Oct 2, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> Ha!
> I'm like... Viasat are using a shepard tone during the static breaks between programs...!!! someone in the edit room is taking the p***...!!! 20 mins later I realise I have had this web page open in another browser tab all evening!


Heh heh .... already had that in bookmarked ... probably donate too !


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Nov 9, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> Can't wait for "Volume 2 : Ticking Clocks" ! :/








.... Told ya !


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 9, 2017)

whitewasteland said:


> .... Told ya !


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## mrd777 (Nov 9, 2017)

WOW. I can't believe it, you were right about the clock stuff.

For me, the underlying issue is that people will buy these libraries and try to sound like Hans. It's just a copy cat game. And it only gets worse when people buy these libraries and put music out there that copies the sound because directors will ask for it more and more now after hearing more of it out there. 8Dio is only helping push the copy cat game. Yes, I can see that they are trying to capitalize on hans, but doesn't a part of them kind of cringe and hesitate, knowing they are helping push the copy game?

Yes, I've been asked to COPY hans zimmer and it is annoying as hell. I wanted to throw a book at the so called director. Why the hell are you hiring someone and asking them to do copy cat work? I understand if you have a reference and have an idea of what you want, but if you are asking to use the same exact sounds and literally copy them, you're annoying. 

I'll be honest when I saw the library, I closed the page... Sorry if this is a negative rant. Just my opinion. Maybe because of my negative experience with a so called director.


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## Mornats (Nov 11, 2017)

I got this mostly because I liked the clock effect in Dunkirk (and I'm not a working composer so mrd777's concerns aren't that much of a concern to me). It's more than just clock ticks though. Combine the clock sounds with the inbuilt sequencer and effects and you have a pretty cool little ticky/tappy/clicky effects tool. Ideal for adding accompanying high-end rhythms to your percussion.


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## kurtvanzo (Nov 11, 2017)

mrd777 said:


> WOW. I can't believe it, you were right about the clock stuff.
> 
> For me, the underlying issue is that people will buy these libraries and try to sound like Hans. It's just a copy cat game. And it only gets worse when people buy these libraries and put music out there that copies the sound because directors will ask for it more and more now after hearing more of it out there. 8Dio is only helping push the copy cat game. Yes, I can see that they are trying to capitalize on hans, but doesn't a part of them kind of cringe and hesitate, knowing they are helping push the copy game?
> 
> ...



I understand your concerns, but composers have been adding clocks to music for many, many years. I haven't seen Dunkirk. But what most directors are looking for is a vibe, an emotion, or inspiration. The temp music is a guide. Like the rest of us, when asked to mimic an overused cue, nod politely then prepare to eventually show them how you can improve on that idea and make it unique to you. Overused cues have always been an issue since temp music was first put to fim, but few directors really want an exact duplication (ok, some do  ). Over time you can sway them, but don't plan on it the first few times you meet with them. Your attitude and relationship with them can give you the influence to sway them.

Back OT, new clock sounds are always great to have. This seems to be many classic sounds (older clocks) but I haven't heard a ton of newer clocks. The gui is easy to navigate (as it is in Shepard tones) and helps to come up with something quickly. Worth the price on that alone unless you have many clocks already (guilty). I'd say it's one of the few 8Dio products that has a more down to earth price, actually a deal on sale. Adding a HP filter can help to thin it out in the mix for that high freq tick without getting in the way of other percussion.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Nov 12, 2017)

With the new discount code, it is $69 if you are spend to quality for V8P


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## NoamL (Jan 29, 2018)

NoamL said:


> So maybe I'm stating the obvious here but the "Shepard tone" in Dunkirk is not a sound design effect, right? it's an orchestration effect. Every time Hans cycles through the A BC DEb FGb G#A thing (octatonic rise!  ) he's cycling back around to the bottom of the next layer. And actually it's not a true Shepard effect, it's more of an oblique effect as the top layer is rising and leaving "trails" of octaves below it, while the bass stays the same.
> 
> What I found most interesting about the score is the track "The Oil". No spoilers but it's the dramatic climax of the film & the moment when multiple plotlines that have been moving at different "speeds" intersect.
> 
> ...




Someone created a nice transcription of this. So I wasn't the only one who noticed 

Source: *"Dunkirk Soundtrack Is Way Cleverer Than You Think"*







This is also a technique that was used a lot by 12th-16th century composers. It reminds me slightly of the idea of "isorhythm" which was also used by medieval composers, and borrowed/adapted very creatively by Don Davis for _The Matrix._

It just underlines that this is a compositional idea, not a production idea. And like the Inception brams, it belongs to its film. The reason there are 3 scales (1x, 2x, 4x) is because there are three stories (a week, a day, an hour).


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