# New to virtual instruments but not new to composing. Need help with technology...



## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 11, 2013)

Alright guys, I'll make this as brief as possible. I have been composing for years, mainly for fun nothing serious and have been fine with soundfonts and cheap and free vst synths. Recently I was asked by a friend in film school to score one of his projects but I turned it down because I knew nothing about the process and wasn't confident in the output of my old vsts for that project - he does AMAZINGLY artsy films. I got to thinking about it and figured I wanted to learn the process and started reading and watching anything an everything I could find on the subject. I'm pretty well versed in what's required process wise and I am comfortable in a few different DAWs from years of recording my band and shitty local bands. The problem is the research led me to find huge beautiful sample libraries such as LASS, EWQL, etc. I quickly realized I would need an upgrade if I wanted to utilize these. 

Fast forward to last month. My fiance bought me LASS 2.0 before I even thought about setting aside money to upgrade. She says I always talk about projects but never get around to doing them so she wanted to give me a jump start and bought something off of my list. The problem is I can't even use it as my current setup would not be able to handle it, my daw, and everything else. I need to upgrade and started researching what would be needed and I am thoroughly confused at this point.

It seems there are two trains of thought a) a master/slave setup or b) one monstrous machine that would be able to handle everything. Now before I get into specifics, I want to tell you guys a little bit about what I want to do. I am very comfortable in cubase so I would like to keep that as my main recording DAW. I normally don't do huge projects anymore so it would just be to record vox or guitar parts if necessary in any projects. I really like how intuitive DP8 seems for film score work and im pretty sure I want it as well. As far as libraries go, I already have LASS, SD2, trilian, and slate drums. I would like to pick up symphobia, and some nice brass, woodwind, percussion, and exotic instrument samples. As far as style goes Im pretty versatile but really heavily influenced by Benoit Jutras' work with Cirque Du Soleil and also am in love with the stuff he did for Le Reve. So that's the type of stuff I would be doing. Some of my stuff is huge scores with tons of articulation and some is smaller 6-10 solo instrument tunes. 

All that said, I don't mind bouncing down every now and then but I don't want it to be frequent at all. My question is, is the master/slave setup a necessity or can it be done with one powerful computer? if the master/slave setup how powerful would each machine need to be? Which is recommended to be more powerful? What would be an ideal setup for what I'm doing and right now I have a budget of about 2100 usd for the computers. Would it be possible to get into a good master/slave setup for that? Is a MMS good enough for master or slave use? If a one computer setup is possible how should i spec it? Would an i7 with a ton of ram and multiple 7200 or faster HDs do the trick or should i look into a dual xeon 2620 setup? Thanks for any help in advance. So much for brevity huh?


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## Hannes_F (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi there,

welcome to this forum. Enjoy the discussions and knowledge.

As to your question, there is no definitive answer. Composers here are running successfully both types of setup. Which one is better depends on conditions a bit.

Some links the search function after 'master + slave' shows. Happy reading 

http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ster+slave
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ster+slave
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ster+slave
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ster+slave
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ster+slave
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ster+slave
http://www.vi-control.net/forum/viewtop ... ster+slave


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 11, 2013)

My opinion: Either can work, if you make it work. My choice would be to get a 'monster' single PC. With that budget you can max out the RAM (32GB or 64GB depending on MoBo) and include an SSD or two for faster sample loading/streaming.
The current i7s are great, even the older ones are great. 3770k is a popular choice.
A single PC is much less hassle, less power, less USB e-licensers, and will be enough power/resources for most tasks. I have been using the same single custom built PC for about three years, then i built a slave to go with it, but I find that I <b>rarely</b> turn on the slave. I use my slave more for 3D rendering than I do for audio projects.
If you feel the need, you can always get a slave down the track, but for your needs a single system will suffice.


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## muk (Aug 12, 2013)

And don't forget to give your fiance a kiss. That was awesome of her.


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 12, 2013)

muk @ Mon Aug 12 said:


> And don't forget to give your fiance a kiss. That was awesome of her.



She still owes me two more libraries plus an SSD to make up for the cost of her ring. ;]
So Im assuming the consensus is 1 machine is fine unless Im composing the planets or the star wars soundtrack. Thanks for the help.


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 12, 2013)

It comes down to whether you need every instrument and all articulations loaded within your template, which can be important for orchestration purposes. But for general mock-ups you can find shortcuts, such as symphobia and ensemble patches.


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 12, 2013)

I'll probably just load the instruments i need plus their articulations and bounce down before the mixing process and keep my midi handy in case I decide to change sounds/samples/etc. I don't see any reason at this point in time to need to load whole libraries. If I ever get work and need to make my process more efficient I could always upgrade. Do you think I'll be fine?


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## Hannes_F (Aug 12, 2013)

CircuitalPlacidity @ Tue Aug 13 said:


> I'll probably just load the instruments i need plus their articulations and bounce down before the mixing process and keep my midi handy in case I decide to change sounds/samples/etc. I don't see any reason at this point in time to need to load whole libraries. If I ever get work and need to make my process more efficient I could always upgrade. Do you think I'll be fine?



Absolutely.

With a complicated multi-computer setup you can live for a long while in the land of setup-itis and test-itis. And during that evolution process no two projects will be compatible to each other and you might even have problems opening old projects. Starting with one computer to get the feet wet is a good plan.


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 13, 2013)

CircuitalPlacidity @ Tue 13 Aug said:


> I'll probably just load the instruments i need plus their articulations and bounce down before the mixing process and keep my midi handy in case I decide to change sounds/samples/etc. I don't see any reason at this point in time to need to load whole libraries. If I ever get work and need to make my process more efficient I could always upgrade. Do you think I'll be fine?



As Hannes said, Absolutely! You've got it sorted. And you are right, you can always upgrade and/or add a slave if needed down the track.
Over the last few years of following forums such as this, gearslutz, soundsonline etc., you find some amazing talent/productions coming from very little in terms of hardware and resources. Puts things into perspective a little.


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## gsilbers (Aug 13, 2013)

CircuitalPlacidity @ Sun Aug 11 said:


> Alright guys, I'll make this as brief as possible. I have been composing for years, mainly for fun nothing serious and have been fine with soundfonts and cheap and free vst synths. Recently I was asked by a friend in film school to score one of his projects but I turned it down because I knew nothing about the process and wasn't confident in the output of my old vsts for that project - he does AMAZINGLY artsy films. I got to thinking about it and figured I wanted to learn the process and started reading and watching anything an everything I could find on the subject. I'm pretty well versed in what's required process wise and I am comfortable in a few different DAWs from years of recording my band and shitty local bands. The problem is the research led me to find huge beautiful sample libraries such as LASS, EWQL, etc. I quickly realized I would need an upgrade if I wanted to utilize these.
> 
> Fast forward to last month. My fiance bought me LASS 2.0 before I even thought about setting aside money to upgrade. She says I always talk about projects but never get around to doing them so she wanted to give me a jump start and bought something off of my list. The problem is I can't even use it as my current setup would not be able to handle it, my daw, and everything else. I need to upgrade and started researching what would be needed and I am thoroughly confused at this point.
> 
> ...



what is your current computer spec?

if its like a newer model then you should be fine. and if you start running into issues then lookinto another pc. you can also upgrade ram on your current setup. 
and you can use vienna ensemble pro to have those samples and instruments live outside cubase. that way loading times are fast. yuo can use VEP within your same computer or if you expand to a new computer you can connect a ethernet cable btween the 2 pc's and use VEP to load the sample in the slave. 

btw- cool fiance o-[][]-o


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## chimuelo (Aug 13, 2013)

Just played with a 32GB Ivy Bridge laptop, pretty impressive but the streaming isn't as good as I thought it be, but thinking the 2.2GHz CPU was the trouble.
I would build a 32GB machine using the i7 3770.
I have one in a 1U chassis and recently went to 32GBs running DDR3-1866 @ CAS 11.
Solid as a rock, cheap to build.
Personally the PC is secondary to me since I never have issues, the Instruments are where the rubber hits the road.


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 13, 2013)

Is the 3770 really the way to go?


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## TimJohnson (Aug 13, 2013)

This may help you put things into perspective - 

My current set up is a 2010 2.8Ghz Quad core Mac Pro with 24 GB RAM and 4 x 1TB 7200rpm HD's (2 of which are in RAID 0 and streaming all my samples).

My standard template has in excess of 100 instruments loaded (all common articulations of all orchestral instruments, choirs, plenty of synth tracks etc.) - It will run a project like this with no problems. I don't particularly plan on changing computer any time soon either.

Age old saying with tech though - always buy the best you can afford.


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## Peter Alexander (Aug 13, 2013)

Based on where music tech is headed, I strongly suggest you get a mobo that can be expanded to 64GB RAM. This insures longevity of a system.


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 13, 2013)

I have another question. Lol. Will there be a significant difference between the 3770 and 3770k?


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 14, 2013)

CircuitalPlacidity @ Wed 14 Aug said:


> I have another question. Lol. Will there be a significant difference between the 3770 and 3770k?


Yes, there CAN be. The "k" means the cpu speed is 'unlocked', which is therefore good for overclocking. A lot of motherboards these days, particularly from ASUS and Gigabyte have an auto overclocking utility which will overclock your cpu to safe speeds without you having to change voltages and risk wrecking something. 
I run an i7 2600k (bit older) and run at 4.4GHz. Your CPU cooler will determine how high you can go.


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## chimuelo (Aug 14, 2013)

I use the i7 3770S which is the non "k" version, but some say the CPU won't overclock, that it is locked.
But I never follow the finger that others point, bad habit of mine, but I can assure you I hit 4GHz on my S version right out of the box, but experts claim this is not so.
I beg to differ.

As long as you don't need tons of FX, and streaming is the gig, the i7s of any flavor are more than plenty, as long as you are above 3GHz.
Now if VSTi synths and FX are needed, well overclocking can do wonders there, and so can having more cores.
But personally my machine is more than plenty, and I just made my first 18GB Template.

The only thing I can do at this point to improve my rig is get the ADATA SX2000 @ 512GBs. Most motherboards this winter will have this capability as enthusiasts drive the market, like gamers wanting RAM Drive software from Asus, etc.
Streaming @ 1.4GBps with 200k Random Reads would most likely add tons of polyphony over our SATA III "bottleneck" of 500GBps and 90k Random reads.


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## rgames (Aug 14, 2013)

There are basically three things you need to consider:

1. System latency (audio buffer size)
2. Number of streaming voices
3. CPU usage

In general, for a fixed amount of money, you'll get better performance on all three with a master+slave setup. However, if you're just starting out it might be too complicated. Also, depending on your needs, a single machine might be more than adequate. Some people write very simple music that doesn't require many streaming voices or CPU usage. Some people write using lots of divisi with lots of mic positions, so their streaming requirements are much higher. So, be warned that when someone says "XYZ works great for me" it might be that all he has going is a 3-note spicc pattern on top of some drums.

CPU power (and overclocking) has almost no effect on any of those three metrics. It will have some effect on number of synths and plug-ins you can use but I seriously doubt any machine from the last several years will pose a problem. We've passed the point where CPU power matters for DAW use. Almost all i5 and i7 processors from the last several years are overkill for a DAW. My DAW is a 5-year-old i7 920 and I run a huge template on it at 128 sample buffer with no problems. Every now and then when I have a bunch of synths or Kontakt stuff loaded I get some crackles but not enough to worry about.

In deciding what to buy, I'd start with the assumption that you're going to spend $300 - $400 on SSD's - those will get you more performance than just about any other part of the system except the sound card.

Which is the next important point - the sound card plays a big role in the overall efficiency of the system. So, in laying out your budget, understand that a few hundred extra dollars for a better sound card will have a MUCH larger impact on system performance than a few hundred extra dollars on faster RAM or a faster CPU.

So, bottom line, make sure you get some SSD's and a good sound card then choose CPU based on what you have left over. The rest doesn't really matter - you'll be able to make music just fine with whatever you get. The days of worrying about what configurations have what limitations are behind us, so don't worry about it.

rgames

EDIT - oh yeah, I don't understand the 3770k recommendation. The 4770k is the new version and is better in every way at about the same price. Plus the new Haswell chipset has better support for USB 3 and SATA 6 Gbps. So I don't understand why you would choose 3770k over 4770k.


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 15, 2013)

ALright guys, thanks for the help so far. As of now, im slowly piecing the comp together. I've decided on an i7 4770k. As far as motherboards go, how does this look? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813130690


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## chimuelo (Aug 15, 2013)

I am on my second mainboard by MSI so I can vouge for their audio friendly design, and stability from higher spec'd capacitors and Military Class build. The MSIs are well known for lower tempuratures too which was an option I liked as you can see below is my latest 1U design that just got a memory upgrade, and never gets above 31C. The CPU never goes above 39C with a stock 1U Copper Heat Sink.





I checked Anandtech, but found one of his minions reviewed the board, so I defer to another trusted reviewer of hardware for his opinion. He too is not easy to please.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Kyle's Thoughts: ( hardocp.com )

My MSI Z87 XPower experience was dead on with Dan’s results and analysis. My out-of-the-box experience was perfect. MSI’s BIOS flashing software and online driver update software made getting the latest code on the motherboard easy. 


One thing that did seem a bit off about the XPower was its boot time. It is not a fast process. MSI seems to have noticed this as well as it has included a "Fast Boot" program, which as expected drastically cut down on the XPower’s cycle time.


Dan had a much better experience than I did with the MSI Command Center overclocking software. Every time I tried to use the new Command Center, it crashed when I went into the Advanced Voltage menu. I very much like using the MSI branded Intel Extreme Tuning Utility, a.k.a. "XTU." It just works right, and has a ton of monitoring and tweaking abilities. I used the OC Genie "Red" settings as a starting point for my overclocking. I was able to get a semi-stable 4.8GHz/1866MHz overclock that I think would have been fine for daily system usage and gaming. So in those regards, this is one of the best overclocking motherboards I have used so far sporting the Z87 chipset, and that was at a very mild 1.3v vCore. I could even get the XPower to push 4.8GHz at 1.27v vCore, but I could not get it stable for more than 10 minutes under a full 8-thread Prime95 load.


The MSI Z87 XPower has a great look to it as well and will be at home in many cases with a side window, but just remember this motherboard is physically massive and will need a case that specifically accommodates the XL-ATX size.


The XPower was overall a tiny bit "slower" than some of the other top end comparisons we made, but I think this only points to a slightly immature BIOS, which I would guess will be rectified going forward. It is however nothing that you would ever notice in real world usage. 


The MSI XPower seems to be a very solid piece of hardware that MSI put a lot of resources into to address the super high end motherboard crowd. If you are looking for more affordable MSI motherboard that is a great product, the MSI Z87-GD65 is less than half the price of the XPower, but of course the GD65 does not have the laundry list of features on the XPower.


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 15, 2013)

You guys have been more than helpful. I am so glad I found this board. If (read: when) I have more questions concerning this build I will be sure to post in this thread so as not to clutter the board. I should be back in a few days with a list of components for approval. Thanks again guys.


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## Arbee (Aug 16, 2013)

One master plus 6 slaves plus 12 screens might make you feel cool but, in this day and age, one high spec machine and one or two screens will be efficient, productive and get you a very, very long way.

My 2 cents...

.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Aug 16, 2013)

CircuitalPlacidity @ Tue Aug 13 said:


> She still owes me two more libraries plus an SSD to make up for the cost of her ring. ;]



I'm sorry to tell you, but she doesn't owe you anything, because she can always give back the ring and it will still be worth a lot of cash. You, on the other hand, can't give back LASS 2.0, cause you don't own that library. Your fiancee didn't 'give' you a sample library, she just payed for your non-transferable single user license which you got directly from Audiobro. Even worse, you now owe her some real business results, because you have made her invest in your career by accepting her gift!

If you'd ask me (and _only_ if you'd ask me, which you didn't), I would say that you have placed a time-bomb under your future marriage, since you have made yourself dependent, which is always a bad thing in every kind of relationship.

Despite the fact that your fiancee undoubtedly is the most wonderful girl in the world, you should keep in mind that you now have to meet expectations that are not necessarily _her_ expectations. I hope her friends and parents will never know about that purchase of LASS 2.0, because in bad times (economically, for instance) people tend to look for scapegoats, and you might then be an easy target, especially since the music and film industry is such a volatile and risky business that few people really understand.

Think about the terrible loyalty conflict your fiancee would face, if one of her best friends or even your parents-in-law would turn against you for whatever reason, and would start blaming you for the lack of results in your musical career...

IMHO, there is only one thing you can do about this. You will have to become a Pro a.s.a.p. Start a company; just a simple one that can be registered somewhere as a genuine company (doesn't need to have limited liability etcetera). Let LASS 2.0 be your first investment and pay back your fiancee. Tell her that it is very important to keep your business stuff separate from your joint household, in order to reduce any financial risk for her after your wedding, and to start your marriage on an equal level, economically. You both may benefit from tax return as well, but that depends on the applicable laws in your country.

Forgive me for giving you marital advice that you didn't ask for, but in the past decade, I have seen too many couples breaking up for the same kind of naïveté (or should I say 'ignorance'?), and I wish you both a happy marriage with lots of wonderful music written as the fruit of your inspiration, rather than the constant stress of the expectations of the people you care about the most.

I wouldn't post this reply, if I wouldn't be happily married for 12 years, next week! 8) 

Good luck!!

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Hannes_F (Aug 16, 2013)

Jerome Vonhogen @ Fri Aug 16 said:


> IMHO, there is only one thing you can do about this. You will have to become a Pro a.s.a.p. Start a company; just a simple one that can be registered somewhere as a genuine company (doesn't need to have limited liability etcetera). Let LASS 2.0 be your first investment and pay back your fiancee. Tell her that it is very important to keep your business stuff separate from your joint household, in order to reduce any financial risk for her after your wedding, and to start your marriage on an equal level, economically. You both may benefit from tax return as well, but that depends on the applicable laws in your country.



Lots of wise advice imo. Keeps a lot of peace in the relationship.


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 16, 2013)

I think im good on the relationship advice guys. Thanks though. Next question is will a regular sound card do or is an interface a must? I have a firepod but Im not a huge fan of it plus it's 7-8 years old. I've got the comp sitting right around 2000 right now and that leaves no money for a decent interface. Will a soundcard or onboard audio work for now until I can upgrade to something decent?


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 16, 2013)

Also, I've read that ram speed doesn't really matter so should I go with the 32gb of 2400 I have spec'd out or bump down to 1600 and get a smaller interface? All I really need it for is to monitor and maybe add live guitar, bass, or vox to a few tracks.


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Aug 16, 2013)

CircuitalPlacidity @ Fri Aug 16 said:


> I think im good on the relationship advice guys. Thanks though. Next question is will a regular sound card do or is an interface a must? I have a firepod but Im not a huge fan of it plus it's 7-8 years old. I've got the comp sitting right around 2000 right now and that leaves no money for a decent interface. Will a soundcard or onboard audio work for now until I can upgrade to something decent?



I would not recommend using onboard audio, since it usually has poor ASIO support (if any). I personally don't like PCI soundcards either, cause I never get them 100% quiet (i.e. with no static/interference, no CPU noises, etcetera).

You may want to check out M-Audio's ProFire 610. It's an inexpensive FireWire soundcard with excellent A/D-D/A converters. Best of all, it can be used as a standalone recording device. The pre-amps are surprisingly good, and it has plenty balanced connectors, as well as optional phantom power for the mics. You can even daisy-chain multiple standalone ProFire 610's, if you need to record lots of tracks simultaneously.

If you just want to save money temporarily, you could buy a cheap internal XiFi-card by SoundBlaster. Although it is considered a mass-consumer product that shouldn't be taken seriously (especially in forums like this one), those XiFi-cards can actually handle a lot of tracks at high sample- & bit-rates without any problems. You are not supposed to talk about SoundBlaster among pro's, but the top-of-the-line XiFi card, the semi-external Extreme Elite, has the best and fastest samplerate conversion I have ever seen, and even has impressive A/D-D/A conversion. I bought one for my kids' PC, years ago, and was shocked to see it outperform some of my most expensive studio gear!

The cheaper Soundblaster XiFi cards should be available at a price well below $100,-, but remember this is not professional equipment, so this should really be a temporary solution until your fiancee has sold her ring. 0oD

Remember also, that Soundblaster doesn't care about connectivity, so the amount of ports, In/Out's, is very limited. It takes a load of your CPU though, and works fine with just the audio drivers of this device (don't install any Soundblaster software, cause it is rubbish!)

Anyway, don't forget to check out M-Audio, cause the ProFire 610 might still be within your budget.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## rgames (Aug 16, 2013)

CircuitalPlacidity @ Fri Aug 16 said:


> Also, I've read that ram speed doesn't really matter so should I go with the 32gb of 2400 I have spec'd out or bump down to 1600 and get a smaller interface? All I really need it for is to monitor and maybe add live guitar, bass, or vox to a few tracks.


RAM speed has no effect on anything other than synthetic benchmarks. That's been proved by countless tests on a number of PC enthusiast sites.

I run my slaves at 1600 and tried bumping them down to 1333 and 1100 or whatever it is. Exact same performance in terms of number of streaming voices at 128 buffer.

My main DAW runs at about 1100 and does 1200+ voices at 128 buffer, same as the slaves at 1600.

Expensive high-end RAM is one of the worst things to spend money on unless you spend all your time running synthetic benchmarks.

rgames


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 16, 2013)

I second rgames, ram with speeds over 1600MHz is a waste of money. However i believe it is still worth getting decent timings (latency). CL9 is good, but CL8 is ideal. They look like this in spec sheets 9-9-9-24 and 8-8-8-24, respectively. Lower is better.

As for audio card, i think really you will need an external interface which supports its own ASIO driver. I can vouch for MOTU and Focusrite, both were very good.


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## CircuitalPlacidity (Aug 16, 2013)

So would something like the focusrite Scarlett 2i2 be acceptable until I can upgrade to my desired Apogee setup?


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## Jdiggity1 (Aug 16, 2013)

Generally it's hard to go wrong these days when buying an interface. In most cases the more you pay, the better it will be.
I owned a focusrite Saffire Pro interface, which used a Firewire ASIO driver. I have not used their USB driver, but I don't see why it would be bad?
I personally buy things second hand when I am not quite ready to commit to something. All of my interfaces have been 2nd hand, and i have been able to sell the ones I didn't want to keep, and in some cases even make a profit. Never had a problem so far.
My current interface is MOTU 828mkIII Hybrid, which was also 2nd hand. 3 years no issues. This one will be staying for a while.


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## chimuelo (Aug 20, 2013)

Just read up on the new company that Samsung bought that had software which turned mechanical HDDs of 7200rpm, into devices as fast as SSDs.
Samsung is racing to bring this to market within a month or two to help them take their new line of 840 EVOs, giving them 1000+ MBps of reads, and random IOs of 100k+.

What it does is takes 1GB of RAM on your machine, and turn it into a high speed cache. This also means CAS 8 and CAS 9 will be a big factor.

http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-news/ ... rformance/

The Good news for me is I already have Samsung 840 Pro's as spares, only copied data to them as I am getting good specs from my Vertex 4s.
But I will use the OCZ V4s until early next year when Samsung decides to include this software with all of their drives, not just the new EVOs.

So buying anything Samsung right now looks like a wise choice.


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