# It's not easy being Hans...or John...or Danny



## dcoscina (Jan 24, 2016)

I've been meaning to write this for a while. You see, I used to dabble in Film Music Journalism from let's say 1994 through to 2010. Mostly I reviewed soundtracks for one of the more notable film score magazines. I didn't receive any money for doing so but did get free CDs of the scores I had to review. This was before the internet really took off and most reviews were for the printed edition of the magazine. Most reviews I penned early on were ones I wanted to express my enthusiasm for so they tended to be high ratings. Of course this was all an adjunct to actually composing music for small projects myself. I never considered devoting a lot of time towards film music criticism. 

As the printed version of the magazine came to an end what with the web becoming more prominent form of communication, I found myself being saddled with a plethora of scores, many of which i didn't necessarily care for (ones I wouldn't have purchased on my own). I found at one point that I was burnt out- I mean how many non musical adjectives could I come up with the impart my opinion (the magazine appealed mostly to film enthusiasts who enjoyed the music aspect and not a lot of people with musical technical vernacular). I also found that the tenor of the magazine at times had a dry wit about it but which could be mistaken for mean or hostile towards certain composers. I fell into the group ideology and looked for any opportunity to slag certain composers, mostly Hans Zimmer. This was indeed an odd development because I was an ardent fan of his early work and love his scores to Rain Man, Driving Miss Daisy and especially Thelma and Louise. Even later '90s scores like Thin Red Line really resonated with me but I felt as though I wasn't an informed musician if I admitted I like his music. 

This is a roundabout back story to get to the point of this post. A few years ago, I stepped away from the film music journalism gig because 1) my day job was all consuming and the little time I had left I wanted to dedicate to my own music and 2) I realized objective journalism is, for lack of a better word, bullshit. The author of any review is really only putting their opinion forth and substantiating it with facts they cull from. The problem is, a lot of critics in general don't know the first thing about the actual day-to-day logistics of the very thing they are critiquing. 

The more I worked on paying music jobs, the more I had an appreciation for these big time film composers because there is a lot of aspects of their job that Joe soundtrack lover has no frigging clue about. Absolutely none. And the arrogance that I had by assuming I knew anything about the process that Zimmer or any other composer I may have given a poor review to was, in retrospect, embarrassing. I would go back and tell myself "Dave, shut the f*** up, you have no idea what you are talking about". The small projects I've been lucky to work on came with their own challenges and it's amazing that anyone can realize their vision with directors, producers, etc having an influence on your creation. But that's the biz. If you want complete artistic control, get a commission from an orchestra even though that is also rife with its own limitations. 

Anyhow, the reason I penned this is more in reaction to how Williams' Force Awakens is being slagged by film score fans because it doesn't live up to his original trilogy or even his prequel scores (I love the historical revisionism going on here with those alleging the prequel films were pretty good- a ha). But its awful to see some say Williams was lazy or had ghost writers or some such nonsense. The same vitriol hurled at Hans and Danny Elfman and other composers. I wonder if these people really understand how hurtful these remarks are? 

I loved Hans Zimmer's score to Interstellar. Absolutely and completely. I love the process he employed, the music and how it impacted the film. I loved seeing the making of the score. A friend of mine with a Masters in music composition dismissed it as "Glass wannabe". I replied "well, I prefer it to Glass frankly" and that was that. 

I also found that as I have grown older, I don't have the urge to slag much. I would rather laud the things I enjoy and analyze them as to why I find them so fascinating rather than pour time and energy into negativity. 

Anyhow, this is probably not the most coherent thing I have written but I wanted to say my piece about it. Also wanted to apologize publicly to Hans for being a naive punk for quite a few years. 

David


----------



## sleepy hollow (Jan 24, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> Also wanted to apologize publicly to Hans for being a naive punk for quite a few years.


More power to you, man!


----------



## patrick76 (Jan 24, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> A friend of mine with a Masters in music composition dismissed it as "Glass wannabe". I replied "well, I prefer it to Glass frankly" and that was that.


Hmm. I suspect your friend might have only a superficial understanding of either.


----------



## d.healey (Jan 24, 2016)

Those who don't understand something criticise it, those who do understand critique it.


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 24, 2016)

patrick76 said:


> Hmm. I suspect your friend might have only a superficial understanding of either.


He's a pretty smart guy but I think he's a little blinded perhaps by his extended stay in academia. He's a talented composer but a little bitter.


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 24, 2016)

sleepy hollow said:


> More power to you, man!


It has been a long time coming. I try to stay away from forums where it's easy to "join the mob". I generally don't frequent many forums except this one, MOTUnation (excellent for DP users) and that's about it. I peruse Film Score Monthly but i find it a very negative place. I know a lot of friends have stopped posting there because it's so adversarial


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 24, 2016)

Just a little side note- it took me literally decades to "get" Stravinsky's music. I just didn't connect with it. Then it just did and I love almost every thing he wrote now. I have even been lucky to see live performances of Le Sacre by both Toronto Symphony Orchestra and Montreal Symphony.


----------



## Dr.Quest (Jan 24, 2016)

Great post,Dave. I feel much the same in some respects. I try not to be so negative and really think about the process of creating anything. Getting older can and should bring insight.


----------



## FriFlo (Jan 25, 2016)

While there certainly is a lot of BS chritics, especially on the internet, I do value good critique, also when it is sometimes devastating. There are a lot of popular, successful actors, directors, composers, ... out there, who later in their life want to become true artists, but never get recognition for their work and therefore blame the academics, the critics, the people who actually don't do anything, for not being in touch with real art. While there may be some truth to that about people making a living without actually creating, but dissecting the works of others, there is also something telling about the artists complaining. Every true artist should not listen to critique anyway, because his "inner voice" should tell him where he is right or wrong! From what I have seen, most people complaining about those critics, are in reality craving for acceptance of the very group of people they pretend to despise. 
Of course, a critique can never be totally objective. But it can be informed and that is something I value. A good critique will make you think for yourself about the work instead of just telling you what is good and what is not.
Finally, we live in a time, where academics often get marginalized as people without touch with reality, caught in their strange world. Some pretend, numbers of sale, popularity, followers and success are way more important. I find that very dangerous, less so when it comes to soundtrack critique, but rather frightening when it comes to climate change, human rights, ... topics important for our society in general.


----------



## Noam Guterman (Jan 25, 2016)

I'm glad you don't feel this way today, Dave.
And by the way, it mostly comes down to jealousy.
I can't see any other reason for the bashing of those greats.
But I bet those occasional evil remarks get shrunk in comparison to all the love those composers are getting.


----------



## AR (Jan 25, 2016)

As for JW' score... The Force Awakens movie itself didn't allow him to write music in the style of the old ones. It's a fast paced movie with one-too-many characters. I think he did (for his age) a really brilliant job. And I would've done it the same way if I could  Props to the old master


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Jan 25, 2016)

I cannot stand music critics and think they belong in the ranks of bloodsucking lawyers, televangelists and evil stepmothers. 

I once got into an argument with a film music critic... He said it was his job 'to hold the artists in check'. Are you f***ing kidding me? Who died and put you in charge, man? How can anyone be so arrogant?

Most artists are hard enough on themselves and don't need ignorant and smarmy Monday morning quarterbacks second-guessing every decision they made in the heat of battle. Glad to hear that you finally came to understand that, Dave. Thank you for leaving the dark side and making the world a better place.


----------



## dgburns (Jan 25, 2016)

despite evrything you wrote,I suspect everyone here would rather be a composer then a critic.I also think JW would look at the numbers that came back from SW and be quite pleased.

I also think you tend to grow a thicker skin,and the high of being attached to great projects more then makes up for any negative.I also think while it can hurt to have mud thrown in your face,you get better at shaking it off.
The real movers and shakers have nothing to gain from dismissing the work of another.Negative salesmanship just doesn't work at the top levels.

And finally,not everyone is a music lover,we all gotta get on with that one.

"shake it off" Taylor Swift was right,so funny but true.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Jan 25, 2016)

edit


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 25, 2016)

For sure. Not a coincidence that my penchant for criticizing others went away the more successes I had with my own music.


Noam Guterman said:


> I'm glad you don't feel this way today, Dave.
> And by the way, it mostly comes down to jealousy.
> I can't see any other reason for the bashing of those greats.
> But I bet those occasional evil remarks get shrunk in comparison to all the love those composers are getting.


----------



## Ian Dorsch (Jan 25, 2016)

Man, I remember scavenging through zines and glossy print mags, looking for reviews of cool new stuff to listen to. Back in the early 90s, it was ALL WE HAD, MAN. :D

Thanks for the post, Dave. I think all of us who grew up with the Internet probably have some embarrassing stories of youthful douchebaggery. I know I do. I'm just grateful that it mostly predated Facebook and Twitter.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Jan 25, 2016)

edit


----------



## Rctec (Jan 25, 2016)

Thank You, David! Really, that is enormously honest and generous of you. ...and it means A Lot!
-Hz-


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 25, 2016)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I cannot stand music critics and think they belong in the ranks of bloodsucking lawyers, televangelists and evil stepmothers.



Totally! Can't stand any of those. On my personal list, there's also politicians, teachers, most doctors, and avid fans of science fiction. Come to think of it, I kind of can't stand cyclists either.


----------



## mc_deli (Jan 25, 2016)

Tru dat


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 25, 2016)

Rctec said:


> Thank You, David! Really, that is enormously honest and generous of you. ...and it means A Lot!
> -Hz-



You are most welcome and thank you Hans for your music. Interstellar in particular is one of the finest scores I've ever heard. It is a beautifully transcendent work.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 25, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> ... Interstellar in particular is one of the finest scores I've ever heard. .


Only Interstellar?


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 25, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> Only Interstellar?


I mentioned Thin Red Line, Thelma and Louise (I have the expanded soundtrack which is awesome), Rain Man, Driving Ms Daisy, A league of Their Own, Last Samurai just to name a few but I honestly think Interstellar is on the level of a Mahler or Strauss tone poem. Really and truly. It's a terrific companion piece to Song of the Earth or Ruckert Leider. IMO.

Whoops I forgot A Dark Knight from The Dark Knight. I love that score and track in particular especially the electronics in it.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 25, 2016)

David, I was a little bit joking!


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 25, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> David, I was a little bit joking!


I know. To be honest I think every composer has a pinnacle score in their career- one that just goes to 11 (sorry for the Spinal Tap reference). Of course it's different for every listener I imagine but Interstellar just hit me that way. It transcends being a film score and could easily be a concert hall piece or a ballet piece. The music is timeless and yet so evocative. I've sung its praises since I saw the film and bought the score. Not to take away from Hans' other accomplishments but it just affected me more profoundly than others. I am a big Desplat fan but was honestly bummed that Interstellar didn't win the Oscar for Best Score.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 25, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> ... but was honestly bummed that Interstellar didn't win the Oscar for Best Score.


You know what? Huh, I better write no comment about these votings ... .


----------



## AlexandreSafi (Jan 25, 2016)

Such a beautiful post Dave! Speaking of Interstellar, I think it is sonically one of the most immersive film score ever made, cold & beautiful, and perhaps the most career-defining work for Hans, as to how people are starting to genuinely respect his whole body of work. Interstellar, to me, makes any score he made before look even better...

His level of craft, detail, consistency, specificity and heart to me is as intimidating as John Williams's, Herrmann's, his hero E. Morricone, or any of his classical mentors he unmistakably loves...

But the most important thing for any generation, artist, critic, or any seekers of meaning that we all are, is to always nourish the ability, we all already have, to spot someone who's really trying from his/her heart, that ability allows you to transcend aesthetics and to just be appreciative of diversity, of intentions, of creation, of single moments of creation, of perfections as much as imperfections. Once you cherish that ability, you just know the objective truth not from your mind, but from heart to heart in complete resonance! As humans, believers or not, we just have to keep reminding ourselves that we are living and make a living in the mere existence of a real magic called Music, sound manipulation, with a power over us which is the most bizarre, yet one of the most magical fact in our lives and that it is a Force that not even the greatest musical Master has ever or will ever truly understand, and that even the simplest tune on an oboe or a sustained tone or a familiar sound devoid of any harmony or academic/intellectual intervention can move you to tears, and that... is enough of a serious & humbling consideration before we talk, think, critique about Music. I believe that by deeper acceptance & appreciation of the fundamental mystery of Music, free of paradigms, just like so many orderly yet mysterious things in life, we allow it on ourselves to treat each other's views, points of attention, even one single human life, especially the musician and his musical choices, with more dignity, kindness, openness and preciousness...

Not trying to outshine your wonderfully raw & heartfelt cry from the heart!
Thank you Dave for this piece of writing of yours, you really earn the title of -Musician-!
Sincerely!


----------



## Sebastianmu (Jan 25, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> I've sung its praises since I saw the film and bought the score.



Same here!


----------



## Sebastianmu (Jan 26, 2016)

marclawsonmusic said:


> I cannot stand music critics and think they belong in the ranks of bloodsucking lawyers, televangelists and evil stepmothers.



I think part of the problem is that in order to criticise, you need a specific set of (aesthetic) values, that allow you to praise this, or condemn that. But looking at everything in the light of these values makes it impossible _to recognise something good _outside of this system. The critic can not easily change the fundamentals of his valuation, as this would render all of his previous judgments false. And so the system inevitably solidifies to some sort of private religion of art, of which the critic gets fiercely protective over time. (Like Schenker, who thought all music after Brahms is rubbish, because it defies the method of analysis he had contrived.)

Now, the person who creates art (or music) also needs a set of aesthtic values, otherwise he couldn't decide what to do at any given point of the process, and would end up making nothing. But the artist is not damaged by changing his set of values! He is free to incorporate things he newly discovered without rendering his previous work meaningless.


----------



## germancomponist (Jan 26, 2016)

David, your thread here has reminded me that I've never fully listened to the complete soundtrack of Interstellar alone. I did that today, and my enthusiasm is similar to yours!
Side note: I love this deep bass! In my studio, I also can feel its vibrations!
(and those deep vibrations are healthy for our souls.)


----------



## dcoscina (Jan 26, 2016)

germancomponist said:


> David, your thread here has reminded me that I've never fully listened to the complete soundtrack of Interstellar alone. I did that today, and my enthusiasm is similar to yours!


I listened to it again after binging on a steady diet of John Williams' Force Awakens for the last month. Hans Zimmer's work is every bit as precious and delicate and expansive and evocative as it was the last time I listened to it. It's honestly him reaching to another level. I mean he's had a lot of truly excellent scores and cues but as an entire entity, Interstellar, for me, is his magnum opus thus far. It plays like a concert work. It balances minimalism with Straussian/Mahlerian harmony the way the lone violin line aches to find its home in a consonant key centre through subtle chromaticism (I'm Going Home). The way the violins linger on that last line before resolving to that C chord is totally gorgeous. I love the energy and drive in Cornfield Chase (when the pipe organ enters, you feel it through your whole body). There is so much subtlety going on here. It demands headphone listening because of all the shadings that were imbued into the music. The emotional resonance and weight of STAY is profound while the Bartokian passacaglia styled bass line in A Place Among the Stars is chilling- but amazing. 

In truth, one could write an essay or major piece on why this score is so well crafted just from a musical standpoint and probably a small book on how it works with the film. It's worthy of discussion, praise, analysis but ultimately enjoyment. I absolutely give Hans as much props as one could for this masterpiece. It works on both visceral and cerebral levels.


----------



## jononotbono (Jan 26, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> You are most welcome and thank you Hans for your music. Interstellar in particular is one of the finest scores I've ever heard. It is a beautifully transcendent work.



Yeah I absolutely love Interstellar. The Music isn't half bad either! Haha!  
I can't wait to see what Nolan and Zimmer do together next! An amazing partnership!


----------



## kkproductions (Feb 20, 2016)

Being a lifelong fan of John Williams' scores, I feel very strongly that his score for "The Force Awakens" is one of his best. It blows me away, both in terms of composition and emotion.


----------



## TimCox (Feb 29, 2016)

I've also noticed a large number of people criticizing JW because they apparently don't know the difference between 'composer' and 'orchestrator' which is a huge shame.


----------



## JohnG (Feb 29, 2016)

But Tim as you may know the range of what an orchestrator does varies wildly. Some "orchestrators" are really composing, some are just glorified copyists. I've seen some old hand-written versions of Star Wars music and it's all there -- really nothing to add.

Is that what you're talking about, or something else?


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 29, 2016)

It is very easy to be a ghost!


----------



## D-Mott (Feb 29, 2016)

I don't see why you needed to apologize. Maybe all those years ago you just weren't digging the music and that's fine. We can't like everything and I personally enjoy discussing things I like and don't like. It creates interesting discussions between people and it can help others understand your taste.

From what I read, I get the feeling you have changed your mind about everything just because you realize how Hans, ect do not have it easy as composers and you understand their work process on their projects. Or your tastes may have changed as you got older. Not an be an ass, but just because they don't have it easy.. does that mean I should like everything they write?

I don't think it's a bad thing to critic or actually to slag, as long as someone can back up their reasons for it. As well as having logic and sense in their opinions. I have read a lot of reviews from people that I can't understand how they even got the job to review anyway. It sounds like they just hate music all together.


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Feb 29, 2016)

No, he should apologize... and good on him that he did.

Why call someone out on something you can't do yourself? It takes a special kind of hubris for that.

It's a sign of personal growth and humility and he should be applauded for it.


----------



## D-Mott (Feb 29, 2016)

marclawsonmusic said:


> No, he should apologize... and good on him that he did.
> 
> Why call someone out on something you can't do yourself? It takes a special kind of hubris for that.
> 
> It's a sign of personal growth and humility and he should be applauded for it.




Fair enough.


----------



## dcoscina (Mar 1, 2016)

Hi D Mott. Just to clarify, it wasn't necessarily that I have changed my music tastes over the years or that I feel as though I have to like everything any composer has ever written but more the manner in which I delivered my observations that was frankly very mean spirited and ignorant. I was imposing and academic aesthetic towards a form of music that is part of a new art form not one that is self contained itself. I also made some pretty stupid assertions based on what I thought the composers intentions were which, in retrospect, was embarrassingly poor journalism and mean spirited (like claims that Hans was lazy in his writing or some such nonsense). Having done more work commercially on my own, discovered it's a very unique world to exist in when you are hired to write music for tv or film or radio. People skills, that includes communication and patience are paramount and almost as much as any music skill.

The purpose of my original post was to make amends for the rotten things I'd said about Mr Zimmer but also reflect on how and what is communicated on forums such as this. Having a background in philosophy also, I enjoy good conversation with contrasting ideas but the key is to be respectful of others always, especially if they have a greater insight into the topic which is being discussed. 

And to finish, my op also had mentioned I was originally a very avid fan of Zimmers music so this is more of a return to enjoying what he does and valuing his creative voice.


----------



## D-Mott (Mar 1, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> Hi D Mott. Just to clarify, it wasn't necessarily that I have changed my music tastes over the years or that I feel as though I have to like everything any composer has ever written but more the manner in which I delivered my observations that was frankly very mean spirited and ignorant. I was imposing and academic aesthetic towards a form of music that is part of a new art form not one that is self contained itself. I also made some pretty stupid assertions based on what I thought the composers intentions were which, in retrospect, was embarrassingly poor journalism and mean spirited (like claims that Hans was lazy in his writing or some such nonsense). Having done more work commercially on my own, discovered it's a very unique world to exist in when you are hired to write music for tv or film or radio. People skills, that includes communication and patience are paramount and almost as much as any music skill.
> 
> The purpose of my original post was to make amends for the rotten things I'd said about Mr Zimmer but also reflect on how and what is communicated on forums such as this. Having a background in philosophy also, I enjoy good conversation with contrasting ideas but the key is to be respectful of others always, especially if they have a greater insight into the topic which is being discussed.
> 
> And to finish, my op also had mentioned I was originally a very avid fan of Zimmers music so this is more of a return to enjoying what he does and valuing his creative voice.



Hello

Makes more sense now. Was just curious as to why you felt this way. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## re-peat (Mar 1, 2016)

kkproductions said:


> Being a lifelong fan of John Williams' scores, I feel very strongly that his score for "The Force Awakens" is one of his best.


I think it's among his weakest. As were the perplexingly uninspired "Lincoln", "War Horse" and "Crystal Skull".

And I don't understand why one isn't allowed to say that. I don't understand why, being of the opinion that 85% of Beethoven's output is among the greatest music ever composed, I have to applaud his “German Dances” as a work of genius as well. Because it isn't.
And it's the same thing with Williams, or any other artist (not just in music) which I love and admire. In some of his works, Prokofiev scales heights of incomprehensible perfection, but other works of his almost seem to be crafted by a composer of little or no remarkable talent whatsoever.

I don't see why having the deepest admiration and gratitude for a composer's best work obliges me to consider his/her lesser work as exceptional as well. And me considering "The Force Awakens" as very weak and musically empty, has got nothing to do with jealousy or some other form of small-mindedness and/ or frustration, it's just that that the same ears which hear the sublime in Williams' greatest work, also hear when that level isn't reached in his less inspired work. (Which is why I'm of the opnion that anyone who maintains that "Crystal Skull' is as good as, say, "Superman", hasn't got a true understanding of what is so extraordinary about the music of "Superman" in the first place.)

And saying that "The Force Awakens" is inferior to, say, "The Empire Strikes Back" shows — in my opinion anyway — a much greater respect for its composer than declaring him infallible and saying that his entire output is of the same quality. It isn’t.
Healthy criticism isn't a bad or evil thing: formulated respectfully, it's an honest expression of a deep love for great music. A love that certainly goes much deeper than that which is unable hear the difference between music which is great and that which isn’t.

_


----------



## Dean (Mar 1, 2016)

re-peat said:


> I think it's among his weakest. As were the perplexingly uninspired "Lincoln", "War Horse" and "Crystal Skull".
> And I don't understand why one isn't allowed to say that.
> _



Who said you were'nt allowed to say that?
(IMO those 3 films themselves didnt work at all too,maybe there was a knock on effect from the top down.)

Maybe JW has already said everything he needs to say at this stage but just cant help doing what he loves?
There are so many amazing artists/composers/bands out there who captured lightning in a bottle,..had a golden period,..then at some stage that just leaves them but they just want to keep rocking out / working (occasionally the sparks returns for brief moments.),I can understand that work ethic,..when a hard working man retires,(especially from something they love to do) they go downhill pretty fast. (my elderly neighbour has never worked so hard since he retired a few years ago,..every other day hes up on his roof hammering away!)Lately Ennio Morricone (87) seems to touring all over Europe and working like a man possessed!

btw I can't stand about 90% of The Beatles music!,..but that 10% just blows me away!

D


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Mar 1, 2016)

I think I actively dislike probably about 100% of The Beatles' music. The Fad Four! Given the time period, I understand why girls would scream and faint in front of them, but that people actually listen to their tootling and shrammeling ... no clue.


----------



## Vin (Mar 1, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I think I actively dislike probably about 100% of The Beatles' music. The Fad Four! Given the time period, I understand why girls would scream and faint in front of them, but that people actually listen to their tootling and shrammeling ... no clue.



Yeah, _She Loves You_, _Twist and Shout _and other early pop-ish material...I can understand that.

But this:



or



or



or



or



or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdIeSHYin88

I'd could go for hours. Not quite girl-screaming material unlike their early material, I'd say. 

Curious - what do you consider good music?


----------



## Dean (Mar 1, 2016)

Vin said:


> I'd could go for hours.



Please dont.  D


----------



## Daryl (Mar 1, 2016)

Dean said:


> Please dont.  D


Agreed. There are a few half decent songs. The rest is just cr*p that was only popular because of its place in history. Nothing to see here. Move along please.

Having said that, the same applies to most media music as well. However, at least that is designed to be talked over and pretty much ignored. Just imagine if we actually had to listen to it.


----------



## Mr Greg G (Mar 1, 2016)

_It's not easy being The Beatles_ ... no more respect!


----------



## Markus S (Mar 1, 2016)

It's not easy being anyone.


----------



## Hannes (Mar 2, 2016)

re-peat said:


> I think it's among his weakest. As were the perplexingly uninspired "Lincoln", "War Horse" and "Crystal Skull".



I agree a bit on Lincoln and Crystal Skull, but I actually loved his score for War Worse and it most certainly doesn't belong to his weaker works. Especially his writing for strings is great in this one! Not at all "uninspired"...
I guess you didn't really listen to the whole score closely and if you did, we just have very different tastes I guess 


And I can understand if people say that TFA is a weaker score by him - it probably is not his best work, but in my opinion the score couldn't have been much better.
There was not really anything new in the movie, there were no new iconic moments or characters which called for a new theme like the Imperial March... Except for maybe Rey (and her theme is great and very memorable!).


----------



## acicero (Mar 2, 2016)

re-peat said:


> As were the perplexingly uninspired "Lincoln", "War Horse" and "Crystal Skull".
> 
> _



Man your bar must be really high. Not sure what he would have needed to do on Lincoln to make it "inspired". It sounds like Copland part II, which is exactly what the film needed.


----------



## Baron Greuner (Mar 2, 2016)

yep


----------



## dcoscina (Mar 2, 2016)

acicero said:


> Man your bar must be really high. Not sure what he would have needed to do on Lincoln to make it "inspired". It sounds like Copland part II, which is exactly what the film needed.


And War Horse is one of Williams stronger scores of late with some excellent themes and some evocation of VW which is appropriate for the film tone and setting


----------



## dcoscina (Mar 2, 2016)

Tastenklopfer said:


> I agree a bit on Lincoln and Crystal Skull, but I actually loved his score for War Worse and it most certainly doesn't belong to his weaker works. Especially his writing for strings is great in this one! Not at all "uninspired"...
> I guess you didn't really listen to the whole score closely and if you did, we just have very different tastes I guess
> 
> 
> ...



The Homecoming is a beautiful cue that sends shivers down the spine for me.


----------



## TimCox (Mar 3, 2016)

JohnG said:


> But Tim as you may know the range of what an orchestrator does varies wildly. Some "orchestrators" are really composing, some are just glorified copyists. I've seen some old hand-written versions of Star Wars music and it's all there -- really nothing to add.
> 
> Is that what you're talking about, or something else?


That's exactly what I'm talking about. I know some orchestrators really do a lot of composition for the films they work on. But it seems like a popular thing to try and "lessen" the quality of work done by JW these days.


re-peat said:


> I think it's among his weakest. As were the perplexingly uninspired "Lincoln", "War Horse" and "Crystal Skull".
> 
> And I don't understand why one isn't allowed to say that.


My personal opinion is, no, TFA is not anywhere close to Empire. I still think it's MUCH deeper than it gets credit for though. It seems like there's a big knee jerk reaction to anyone saying they don't like something. I'm plenty guilty of said knee jerk, unfortunately!


----------



## Sebastianmu (Mar 4, 2016)

re-peat said:


> I think it's among his weakest. As were the perplexingly uninspired "Lincoln", "War Horse" and "Crystal Skull".


I agree completely. The last JW score that I truely enjoyed was HP II ("arranged and conducted by William Ross"), mainly because of the density of both the orchestration and the harmonic idiom.
Listening to The Force Awakens, I got the feeling Williams is trying out more "classical" (i.e. less late-romantic) means of musical development, and I'm not sure if I find them convincingly executed (talking about the the faux-fugue thingy here for example..)


----------



## reddognoyz (Mar 4, 2016)

I have heard the sort of critique you are railing against described as " sitting up in the balcony and tossing darts" so easy to critique so difficult to actually do. 

It takes guts to get where those top film composers are, it does. There is a ton of pressure and the ladder you need to climb to get there is really daunting. 

There is an interview with Harry Gregson-Willams on the spitfire sight where he describes getting the gig as HZ's assistant in the mid 90's. HZ says "well to do this, you'll need to match my template, that takes 27 $3500 samplers. HGW doesnt have that kind of money, HZ marches him down to the bank an co-signs a loan for....$100k in mid 90's dollars?? and off they go. That is just ballsy, on both parts. That is risk taking on a different level than a lot of people have the stomach for imho.


----------



## dgburns (Mar 4, 2016)

reddognoyz said:


> I have heard the sort of critique you are railing against described as " sitting up in the balcony and tossing darts" so easy to critique so difficult to actually do.
> 
> It takes guts to get where those top film composers are, it does. There is a ton of pressure and the ladder you need to climb to get there is really daunting.
> 
> There is an interview with Harry Gregson-Willams on the spitfire sight where he describes getting the gig as HZ's assistant in the mid 90's. HZ says "well to do this, you'll need to match my template, that takes 27 $3500 samplers. HGW doesnt have that kind of money, HZ marches him down to the bank an co-signs a loan for....$100k in mid 90's dollars?? and off they go. That is just ballsy, on both parts. That is risk taking on a different level than a lot of people have the stomach for imho.



No doubt,but in the right context actually makes sense.


----------



## reddognoyz (Mar 4, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> And War Horse is one of Williams stronger scores of late with some excellent themes and some evocation of VW which is appropriate for the film tone and setting



Agreed on Lincoln. I felt the score was perfectly scaled to that movie. I also admire the new Star Wars score.


----------



## re-peat (Mar 5, 2016)

I wasn’t talking about these scores not being appropriate for the movies they were written for. I’m sure they are an excellent and highly effective fit. JW is much too gifted, experienced and professional a composer to ever really fail on that front.
I was talking about the abstract musical content. Which, quoting the title of Mercer Ellington’s most memorable stab at immortality, ain’t what it used to be. To these ears, anyway.

It’s no coincidence that in recent years, when raving about a new JW score, its degree of appropriateness is always a big card on the table. How well it works for the film. And how impressively Mr. Williams managed once again to give a film exactly what it needed.

I don’t contest any of that (well, except for one or two films), but the thing is: that argument never used to be part of one’s appreciation — at least not mine — with Williams’ work up until the early 2000’s. Its appropriateness was always a given, it needn’t even be considered. In fact, even mentioning it felt almost indecent, because (1) it felt like doubting the masterfully obvious and (2) it seemed so superficial and patronising an observation in light of the all-overwhelming intrinsic quality of the music.

“Superman”, “E.T.”, “Hook”, “Jaws I & II”, “The Fury”, “Empire”, “Dracula”, “Temple Of Doom”, “Jane Eyre”, … those are all breathtakingly sublime and exceptionnaly inspired pieces of work — cues of which I don’t hesitate to rank among the truly great music that the 20th century has left us —, and NOT because they work great in their respective films, but because they contain breathtakingly sublime and exceptionnaly inspired music. Of a scope, depth and level which, to my ears, is all but absent in anything he wrote in the past 15 years.

Said all this many times before, often going to excruciating length to do so — and people who read some of it might say: oh please, not that again — but in my opinion, Williams’ blessed ‘state of genius’ came to an end somewhere around the period of “Jurassic Park” and “Harry Potter”. “Hook”, to me, is his final true masterpiece, and “Jurassic Park” is his last great roar. And “Potter” is the smouldering of a once blazing fire that is about to die out. And die out it did. And ever since, John Williams is still capable — better than most — of giving a movie exactly what it needs, and with undiminished craft and dramaturgical insight, but … without that extra-ordinary, incomprehensible, unanalyzable level of musical invention that made his earlier film scores sooooo much more than mere “appropriate film scores”.

_


----------



## Simon Ravn (Mar 5, 2016)

I actually pretty much agree with re-peat. I think Williams' best output came before 2000. I do believe Harry Potter has some truly great moments though, especially the 2nd and 3rd film Williams did. And so does Tintin, War Horse ("The death of Topthorn" for example) etc. Of course, none of his scores are bad, and most of them are better than most other composers', musically speaking (at least for my taste).

But I must admit I was sorely disappointed by his latest Star Wars score. It left me completely empty, and for the first time I think his music sounded more like MUSICAL CUES than real musical pieces that lived on their own. You could feel how these were made for a specific scene, and when the scene ends, so does the music, so, bam, cut, fade-out etc. The elegance and effortlessness usually present in Williams' music, the ability to make the score still seem like a symphony (in lack of a better word) was gone. And this new great theme everybody are talking about (Reys theme) just seems like a thematic and musical mess to me. The score still has great moments and the very last theme (Jedis steps I believe it is called) is an amazing, classic Williams theme with a lof of potential if it is to be developed into the next film/score.

Anyway, I am so greatful for all the amazing music Williams has composed in his carreer, and also happy he is still working, but I think his best work is behind him.


----------



## Sebastianmu (Mar 5, 2016)

Simon Ravn said:


> and for the first time I think his music sounded more like MUSICAL CUES than real musical pieces that lived on their own. You could feel how these were made for a specific scene, and when the scene ends, so does the music, so, bam, cut, fade-out etc. The elegance and effortlessness usually present in Williams' music, the ability to make the score still seem like a symphony (in lack of a better word) was gone.


This might be partly due to the fact, that there was no picture lock he could work with.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Mar 5, 2016)

Sebastianmu said:


> This might be partly due to the fact, that there was no picture lock he could work with.


Nah. Hook was still filming when he started composing. This is pretty normal in the business, that you dont have a locked picture before starting work. Usually I start composing even before filming has begun! Not saying this is ideal but just saying these are the conditions composers often work under.


----------



## LamaRose (Mar 5, 2016)

"Those who can, do; those who can't, teach"... and those who can't teach, critique.


----------



## Simon Ravn (Mar 5, 2016)

LamaRose said:


> "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach"... and those who can't teach, critique.



That has got to be one of the most derailing and dumbing down comments I have yet to see here.


----------



## dcoscina (Mar 5, 2016)

I he


Simon Ravn said:


> I actually pretty much agree with re-peat. I think Williams' best output came before 2000. I do believe Harry Potter has some truly great moments though, especially the 2nd and 3rd film Williams did. And so does Tintin, War Horse ("The death of Topthorn" for example) etc. Of course, none of his scores are bad, and most of them are better than most other composers', musically speaking (at least for my taste).
> 
> But I must admit I was sorely disappointed by his latest Star Wars score. It left me completely empty, and for the first time I think his music sounded more like MUSICAL CUES than real musical pieces that lived on their own. You could feel how these were made for a specific scene, and when the scene ends, so does the music, so, bam, cut, fade-out etc. The elegance and effortlessness usually present in Williams' music, the ability to make the score still seem like a symphony (in lack of a better word) was gone. And this new great theme everybody are talking about (Reys theme) just seems like a thematic and musical mess to me. The score still has great moments and the very last theme (Jedis steps I believe it is called) is an amazing, classic Williams theme with a lof of potential if it is to be developed into the next film/score.
> 
> Anyway, I am so greatful for all the amazing music Williams has composed in his carreer, and also happy he is still working, but I think his best work is behind him.


i read that Abrams would only show Williams 20 minutes of the film at a time and in sequential order rather than the whole thing. I also read that Williams prefers to score the climax and work backwards from there so it makes sense why the new score didn't have the same cohesion most Williams scores have. But let's also call it- the guy is 82 years old and has been basically retired for the last few years as far as film scoring is concerned. Regardless there are plenty of really good moments in TFA. The Jedi Steps is one of my favourite Williams pieces of late as is Rey's Theme. And the heroic variation of her theme when she's fighting Kylo Ren is terrific. Can't wait for Ep. 8


----------



## Simon Ravn (Mar 5, 2016)

dcoscina, it might be true about how Williams prefers to score his films - but I am sure he has been forced to work under less than ideal conditions many times before. As i mention, Hook, one of his best scores, some of it was composed before filming, most of it before the film was locked. Tintin... little by little, some before he had much visual to work with. I am sure there are many more examples. Williams has done this many times before and still come up with much better scores than Episode 7. I agree on Jedi Steps though, this is an awesome, very classic Williams theme (as I also wrote earlier), and it's a shame it gets such a short appearence on the soundtrack. I hope it will be developed further for episode 8, and be more prominent.

That said, there could be a million reasons why a score sounds/turns out different than our spectations.


----------



## dcoscina (Mar 5, 2016)

Simon Ravn said:


> dcoscina, it might be true about how Williams prefers to score his films - but I am sure he has been forced to work under less than ideal conditions many times before. As i mention, Hook, one of his best scores, some of it was composed before filming, most of it before the film was locked. Tintin... little by little, some before he had much visual to work with. I am sure there are many more examples. Williams has done this many times before and still come up with much better scores than Episode 7. I agree on Jedi Steps though, this is an awesome, very classic Williams theme (as I also wrote earlier), and it's a shame it gets such a short appearence on the soundtrack. I hope it will be developed further for episode 8, and be more prominent.
> 
> That said, there could be a million reasons why a score sounds/turns out different than our spectations.


They tracked this theme in Jedi Steps under one of the trailers and I was really hoping it was Rey's theme- there's speculation who's theme it is- maybe Luke's. Anyhow I also hope Williams gets to use it more in Ep 8


----------



## TimCox (Mar 5, 2016)

Quick aside: How awesome is it that we can critique JW because his latest work is not as much a landmark as his previous work? I hope we can all be that lucky one day!


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Mar 5, 2016)

Meh... It's easy to critique. Opinions are like asses and elbows - everybody's got one.


----------



## dcoscina (Mar 6, 2016)

marclawsonmusic said:


> Meh... It's easy to critique. Opinions are like asses and elbows - everybody's got one.


It really depends how the critique comes across. There are a lot of journalists who don't really have any grounding in what they are reviewing and these days any idiot with a blog carries some sort of false sense of authority over a subject when they really are people with an opinion. 

I think there is a place for academic criticism but it largely belongs in academia because it often focuses on the purity of the subject and none of the practical aspects that govern the end product. 

I thinks it's a little one dimensional to make broad based statements like every critic is an ass. I've enjoyed some terrific essays such as on the criterion collection release of Seven Samurai from a film historian/critic. The degree of analysis he brought to his audio track narration over the film was brilliant.


----------



## marclawsonmusic (Mar 6, 2016)

dcoscina said:


> I thinks it's a little one dimensional to make broad based statements like every critic is an ass.


I'm sorry, Dave. This is not what I intended to say.

I was just trying to say that opinions are easy - they are cheap.

I agree that some opinions are more valuable than others. When experienced and knowledgeable people speak their opinions on a topic, I generally take it seriously.


----------



## dcoscina (Feb 23, 2022)

In light of the recent Variety article, I think it's worth resurrecting this, partly for myself. It's so easy to get stuck on ivory tower idealism when your career and income don't depend on it. It's so comfortable to admonish those who are toughing it out in the industry. 

Should changes be made? Yes, especially where composer royalties are concerned. It's harder to make a career out of music these days... but then again, the time I was coming in up the early 90s, we didn't have SoundCloud, DistroKid, YouTube, etc, channels that allowed you to get your music out there. You needed an agent to get work.. but to get an agent, you needed a portfolio... see how that vicious cycle went? Interning at a big composer house does help people get exposed to the rigours of the modern film industry, without the stress of all of the responsibility resting on your reputation. Working on a few select cues, or fleshing out something is good training. 

Several industry leaders have chimed in on the Variety Minions thread which is good. I dare say most of us don't know exactly what it's like to be in their shoes, even those of us who have enjoyed modest to moderate success in the field of music for media. 

@Rctec @charlieclouser @AR @carterburwell @jeffrona

[btw- I'm not vying for position or brownie points here... I'm too old to intern and I'm cool with my own music career at present. I'm just offering a contrasting perspective]


----------



## AR (Feb 23, 2022)

dcoscina said:


> In light of the recent Variety article, I think it's worth resurrecting this, partly for myself. It's so easy to get stuck on ivory tower idealism when your career and income don't depend on it. It's so comfortable to admonish those who are toughing it out in the industry.
> 
> Should changes be made? Yes, especially where composer royalties are concerned. It's harder to make a career out of music these days... but then again, the time I was coming in up the early 90s, we didn't have SoundCloud, DistroKid, YouTube, etc, channels that allowed you to get your music out there. You needed an agent to get work.. but to get an agent, you needed a portfolio... see how that vicious cycle went? Interning at a big composer house does help people get exposed to the rigours of the modern film industry, without the stress of all of the responsibility resting on your reputation. Working on a few select cues, or fleshing out something is good training.
> 
> ...


Don't be fooled by the responsibility  There lies a heavy one on a assistants shoulder. I remeber times before pandemic where I left my studio at 1am only to come back at 7am, one of my assistants sleeping next to some empty red bull cans and when I was checking his last saved .cpr file it said something like 6.27am or so. He managed to get further with the cue for about 30seconds in 5 hours. Doesn't sound a lot (but it actually is). So, while he was snoring on the couch behind my back I was fixing some minor changes on headphones. 'bout 11am he came back from the shower and I presented him my minor changes, we talked it through and by 12.30-14pm we were done with half the scene. At lunch we always talked about things like: "Oh we should've used the spitfire clarinet instead of the other one." - "Yeah" - "So?" - "Ah come on. There a more cues to be done. Let's fix it later." (Never happened. The director liked it anyways). We were on tight schedule and the computers were running round the clock back then.

As for the income... A good friend of mine Chris Young for example teaches film scoring at USC as a sideline. I am giving guitar lessons at a local school of music. I need a constant income in my life + I need some time off all the screens in front of my eyes every now and then. 

When I started out in film scoring the agencies I wanned to be in, did not want me :( and I was pretty sad about that. I haven't done any big studio production and it was impossible to get a gig on those without agents. So I was doing very low low budget stuff. Many times unpaid jobs. Getting my stuff right, with all the trails and errors and building up a studio. So were my director friends, too. And one of them happened to land a box office hit with a low budget production. 2 years fast forward... my music starts right after the famous 21st Century Fanfare. And I'm like to the guy next to me in a theater: "Was that just really happening??"

I can totally understand, in a fast living world, where young people want to score a blockbuster not for the money or the ego but just simply because every now and then a friend of them is asking something like: "Okay, so you are a film composer?" - "Yesss." - "Have I seen any film you made?" - "Well, no? :/" ....it is totally frustrating if your friends are making success on the wall street while you are having a hard time. But, try imaging being an astronaut. You work harder in your life than any pilot, you push yourself psychologically and physiologically to outer limits than most of the people on earth. And many of those astronauts will never be in space. Pretty frustrating. I come to the conclusion that nowadays we simply forget why we all make music. It is in our DNA. It is what we have to do. We have to eat, we have to go to the toilet, we have to make music. In German there is this saying: "Der Weg ist das Ziel"...it can't really be translated to English. It means something like 'the path is the goal'. To me it means, looking back at my days where I was having my ups and downs in my career and at one point giving it all up, and why I kept staying a musician and finding my joy in it. Certainly it wasn't about the money.


----------

