# Hans Zimmer's rise and fall technique



## H.R. (Mar 23, 2014)

Hi!
I wanted to know more about this style of Hans Zimmer which there is a rise and fall of dynamics or volume for instance in strings of "Time" from Inception or 12 Years a Slave.

I know how to do it, I have done it but I'm not very much satisfied with the result, It doesn't have that feeling it suppose to have.

For instance listen to this track that I've done:https://soundcloud.com/h-r-nikoofar-1/rush-for-glory-main-menu

In 2:23 listen to the strings...I don't know, it doesn't have that good feeling of Zimmer's stuff. :shock: 

I would be thankful to see some advice.

Thank you. :wink:


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## Jimbo 88 (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm not trying to claim I'm the best source for this, but I recently did a trailer that had Hans' music in it as a temp track. So here are some observations I had.

Hans does not necessarily achieve his music goals thru melody as much as Orchestration (in this situation). He gets great dramatic effect by adding and subtracting instruments. And simplicity seems to be his friend. He might have a big orchestra banging away, but every part is boiled down to only what contributes to the emotion at hand. Lots of attention to small details. He'll start with a simple ostinato, but it will be perfectly suited for the moment..just the right tempo, energy, certain right amount of emotion and impeccably recorded. He builds dynamics and tension by adding instruments and increasing the range and then will pull it all away. So when you want to bring in the "Bramm" thingy, you might try pulling everything out except the low brass and low strings.

Go get the Inception trailer with his music, load it into your DAW and try to recreate it. It will be worth your effort.


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## Waywyn (Mar 23, 2014)

Why not touch the modwheel once in a while? 

To be serious, there are so many patches out there which let you control dynamics via CC01 (modwheel) or cc11 (expression). Besides that all or most recent libs contain dynamic patches which are named something like: p-f-p etc. ... using these will give you much better results!

btw: check this track, this one is done by just using modwheel and legato patches:
https://soundcloud.com/alexpfeffer/gravity


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## AlexandreSafi (Mar 23, 2014)

Waywyn @ Sun Mar 23 said:


> Why not touch the modwheel once in a while?



Yep... That pretty much sums up this thread, at least for me ...
Really nice track by the way Alex! 

Alex


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## H.R. (Mar 23, 2014)

As I mentioned in my first post, I know how to use it, of course I use modwheel but I want to know more about this style. For instance the range of dynamic or the important instruments to apply this technique. 

By the way thanks guys! :wink:


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## Kejero (Mar 24, 2014)

Creating buildups/crescendos is not just about "playing louder" though. It also helps to know each instrument's weak and strong registers. Knowing which parts of the sonic spectrum are occupied by which instruments so you can decide which instruments to add and where.

I also notice in your track that many ideas are executed by just one instrument (or instrument group). The "beat" by the percussion might for example benefit from some additional sounds and texture to emphasize certain hits.
But more importantly, you want your whole orchestra to feel and create that "wave" that you want to create in dynamics, not just the instruments playing the main lines. Try to really make them talk to eachother, even though they're all virtual...


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## H.R. (Mar 24, 2014)

Kejero @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> Creating buildups/crescendos is not just about "playing louder" though. It also helps to know each instrument's weak and strong registers. Knowing which parts of the sonic spectrum are occupied by which instruments so you can decide which instruments to add and where.
> 
> I also notice in your track that many ideas are executed by just one instrument (or instrument group). The "beat" by the percussion might for example benefit from some additional sounds and texture to emphasize certain hits.
> But more importantly, you want your whole orchestra to feel and create that "wave" that you want to create in dynamics, not just the instruments playing the main lines. Try to really make them talk to eachother, even though they're all virtual...



Thank you so much. You helped a lot. :wink:


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## Jimbo 88 (Mar 24, 2014)

Ok I don't feel I answer very well. Let i me say what i meant a little more direct.

Start with less instruments, smaller instruments, like a string quartet. make them a little more intense. As you add make sure the new line is adding to the intensity, not taking away, I would use more cc data from the mod wheel as others have suggested, but the louder dynamics come from increasing the "span" of the the orchestra so playing louder is not necessary. This keeps the intensity even more interesting by not getting louder. Then pull everything out and leave a small sounding solo instrument to start and rebuild. When you get small do it all at once, not with a decrescendo. That will get you closer to the sound you are looking for,


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## H.R. (Mar 25, 2014)

Jimbo 88 @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> Ok I don't feel I answer very well. Let i me say what i meant a little more direct.
> 
> Start with less instruments, smaller instruments, like a string quartet. make them a little more intense. As you add make sure the new line is adding to the intensity, not taking away, I would use more cc data from the mod wheel as others have suggested, but the louder dynamics come from increasing the "span" of the the orchestra so playing louder is not necessary. This keeps the intensity even more interesting by not getting louder. Then pull everything out and leave a small sounding solo instrument to start and rebuild. When you get small do it all at once, not with a decrescendo. That will get you closer to the sound you are looking for,



You are the man! Thank you Jimbo. Starting to practice right now!


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## G.R. Baumann (Mar 25, 2014)

Kejero @ Mon Mar 24 said:


> Knowing which parts of the sonic spectrum are occupied by which instruments so you can decide which instruments to add and where



Perhaps a useful chart.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/columns/gstep/index.php?id=93


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## SymphonicSamples (Mar 25, 2014)

Hey H.R , Jimbo has offered some great advice . A Crescendo over time in the style you want is very much orchestration and textural building and of course the way you choose to voice the chords throughout the ensemble your writing for . The idea's are often simple , but the overall effect on the listener can be wonderful . Take a listen to around 2 minutes in this piece , and again the same crescendo gets repeated using different orchestration at about 4:30 . I was intentionally going for a similar effect . If you like that I can tell you the way I approached it .

https://soundcloud.com/symphonicsamples/wondering-star


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## Ryan (Mar 25, 2014)

A remake I did for A LONG "time" ago



I'm sorry for the "MONO" sound on that youtube video. Something happen in the screen caption. 
If you gonna subscribe. Subscribe to this: http://www.youtube.com/user/Ryanfilmscores


Listen to Soundcloud for Dolby Stereo :D o[]) 

[flash width=450 height=110 loop=false]http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F38342575&secret_url=false[/flash]

no flashers:
https://soundcloud.com/ryan1986/hans-zi ... yan-remake

For the thread starter: Do as I did: I did it all by ear and listening to each instrument for it's placement.. That way you learn a LOT! 

Best of luck!


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## H.R. (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks all.
Matthew I really enjoyed "Wondering Star". Please do tell me your approach.

To Ryan: Well done man. Great mockup. A little longer release on cello at the beginning and less volume on the percussion and it would be more amazing. I do the exact approach like you.


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## SymphonicSamples (Mar 27, 2014)

Hey H.R , glad you liked the piece . My approach with the section was a very simple subject given it followed something far more melodic . Some subtle use of synths for texture , piano in octaves on accents and obviously all instruments slowly change dynamic layers for the duration . At the same time from an orchestration point of view slowly adding instruments from the sections used , divisi in Strings (still kept very simple) and low Brass , and of course choir . The voicing of all instruments used expand out over the orchestra for the final tutti . Almost no harmonic movement , which makes what follows hopefully more effective . I could separate the 4 main sections Strings , Brass , Choir , Percussion apart for that small section and email it to you so the voicing become obvious if you want , but that's really it . The second time through the obvious change is rhythmic variety , and Brass dynamics . o-[][]-o


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 27, 2014)

Study Ravel's "Bolero."


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## re-peat (Mar 27, 2014)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> Study Ravel's "Bplero."


Or Roszinnb's "Li Gataz Ladrq".

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 27, 2014)

re-peat @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Thu Mar 27 said:
> 
> 
> > Study Ravel's "Bplero."
> ...



I don't know that piece. I will check it out.


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## re-peat (Mar 27, 2014)

I was just having a bit of fun because of typo, Jay. It's just one letter ('p' instead of 'o') and it just made me laugh for a second, that's all. _Ravel's Bplero._

You may not know "Li Gataz Ladrq", I don't know it myself to be honest, but I'm sure you'll now "La Gazza Ladra". By Rossini of course, the undisputed master of the orchestral crescendo.

_


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## EastWest Lurker (Mar 27, 2014)

re-peat @ Thu Mar 27 said:


> I was just having a bit of fun because of typo, Jay. It's just one letter ('p' instead of 'o') and it just made laugh for a second, that's all. _Ravel's Bplero._
> 
> You may not know "Li Gataz Ladrq", I don't know it myself to be honest, but I'm sure you'll now "La Gazza Ladra". By Rossini of course, the undisputed master of the orchestral crescendo.
> 
> _



Ah, good one. My typing sucks.


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## H.R. (Mar 28, 2014)

Thanks Matthew, I got it. Now I'm practicing it.


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## Piano & Strings (Mar 28, 2014)

I could be wrong, but in 'Time', doesn't he use a tension chord on the long crescendo, then a resolving chord for a long dimuendo, switching between the two in one clean bow change... very powerful and tricky to imitate with modwheel... I would play that in, the edit to reduce the gap of the chord change. When I think about it, that's an incredibly powerful, yet simple device. It reminds me of the labored breathing of someone in emotional distress, but maybe I'm getting too far out there lol. I love how a legato line will join the crescendo, resolving on the dimmed to one note. It's my fave Zimmer piece and like Adagio for Strings, it's one of the few orchestral pieces that provokes quite an emotional response in me.


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