# Who composes in Notation programs and why?



## BlackDorito (Jan 25, 2020)

In my several years on Vi-C, I have the impression that most members compose directly into DAWs and most developers therefore gear their products to DAW composers.

That makes me an anomaly in that I compose into a notation program. I'm looking to get the perspective of members who have perhaps tried both workflows and why they made a particular choice.

In a way, this is a well-traveled topic on threads about DAW preferences, or notation preferences. What I'm trying to get at though is whether a familiar DAW or notation program - something you are fluent in and can execute commands almost subconsciously - helps you in the moment-by-moment actions you take to compose. You have decided they do ... that's why you are using the tool. Have you tried using notation (or DAW) instead? Do you think the tool is molding your composing process to your benefit or detriment? [Notation programs have deficiencies wrt. DAW features to control VI libraries - that's a given. I'm not trying to rehash that discussion]

As an example, I am questioning whether my workflow of entering notes one-by-one into Sibelius, instead of real-time recording of each voice into a DAW track, has the effect of directing my compositional process to be more local/vertical instead of linear. Projects I did years ago by overdubbing track by track into SONAR seem in some cases to have more 'flow' even if they are less sophisticated and complex than recent creations within Sibelius.


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## jbuhler (Jan 25, 2020)

I compose directly into a DAW, but still think primarily in notation. (Piano roll is just another notation system.) Still, I rarely use a computer notation program unless I need to print something. I will go back to notation, but then I work with pencil and paper. I also dislike working things out on piano (or with piano sounds) and prefer to work with string, wind, or brass ensemble patches (or with solo instruments when that is appropriate). Whenever I work with the piano sound, I end up writing piano music... 

Given the state of NotePerformer these days, I have considered returning to a notation program.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 25, 2020)

I use both. 

My "composing" with DAW is extremely limited by my limited keyboard skills (and other reasons perhaps). This may be good. My DAWmusik tends to be more soundtrack-ish, arguably more relate-able, simpler. Fun to do. I also started back in ye olden days when I had a QX21 Sequencer (later to be upgraded to the fancypants Alesis MMT8). Notation didn't exist at the consumer level.

Notation is my "job". There's no comparison, it's my language. I learned to read music at 7. I'm 55.  I'm 58,236X more comfortable with it. I wish that wasn't always the case, but it is and I accept it. I wanted to be a cool Pink Floydish cat who jams etc. I'm not, I'm a composer that has to carefully plan, avoids parallel 5ths, knows all the clefs inside and out. I've had a lot of fancy book-lernin' skool. It shows. Whether that's good or bad, I'm not sure... but I do enjoy payin' the rent.


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## dcoscina (Jan 25, 2020)

For more Orchestral work these days I’m using Dorico first with NotePerformer. It’s a lot easier to develop ideas for me.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 25, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> Whenever I work with the piano sound, I end up writing piano music...


Story of my life. So these days, if I noodle a passage on the keyboard, I try to get it into orchestral notation soon after so I can work with the unique qualities of the desired instruments as I develop it. 

By forsaking a DAW, I feel like I am eliminating a few things that might be valuable: live recording of parts, and live noodling with string/wind/brass patches. I've kinda eliminated all serendipity that used to occur when I simply overdubbed a few instrumental tracks into a DAW.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 25, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> My DAWmusik tends to be more soundtrack-ish, arguably more relate-able, simpler. Fun to do.


Indeed, in my case this is what I'm trying to creatively move beyond (.. even though it was easier and fun). My earliest gear was Cakewalk and hardware such as DX7, M1, Emulator, drum boxes, etc. In using the 'DAW workflow', I tended to create tracks that had a repeating bassline and thematic material on top. The thematic material could be quite elaborate viz. the swirling sounds and sonic space it took up (e.g. the M1 voices) - it could sound good without a lot of craft. But I always wondered if I should consider this 'composing' when pressing one Korg M1 note could bloom into an entire sonic experience. As I progressed through my musical education, my heroes became the 20th century composers - starting with Debussy, Stravinsky and onward. When I looked at their scores ... holy shit, they got into the bits-n-bytes to create a texture ... there was none of this press-one-note thing. Notation seemed to be a key indicator of composing. After that, I always aspired to notation and eventually the technology caught up.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jan 25, 2020)

I've been moving slowly over to Dorico first from Cubase and it's the best thing I've ever done.


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## ptram (Jan 25, 2020)

BlackDorito said:


> Debussy, Stravinsky and onward. When I looked at their scores ... holy shit, they got into the bits-n-bytes to create a texture ... there was none of this press-one-note thing.


Both improvised a lot at the piano. Then, they had a strong sense of their own composing style, and a clear idea of the final result. The accurate, innovative scores they put down in traditional notation was the result of experimenting at the keyboard, while following a clear goal.

Paolo


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## joebaggan (Jan 25, 2020)

I use Dorico with Noteperformer. For chamber or orchestral music, I need to see the music in notation to see what I'm doing. Then I may export to Cubase if I need to use better VI's. I really can't stand piano rolls.


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## CT (Jan 25, 2020)

Sometimes I work right in the DAW, sometimes I write things out by hand first. Notation programs are the one method that's never worked for me. 

If I'm going to notate something, it's far more comfortable for me to do it with a pencil. All the menus and submenus and key commands and yada yada yada of something like Finale just kill my musical libido....


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## CT (Jan 26, 2020)

TCMQL1 said:


> I would be very interested to hear from someone that swears by live composing into a DAW what their workflow would be like if they were to write something like the 'Bat Guy' demo by Guy Bacos found on this page, for example.



I used to think it'd be impossible to write "live" past a certain level of complexity, but the more I do it, the better I get at keeping track of what's going on without having it clearly visible in notation. It would probably still be easier to do that kind of thing the old fashioned way, but if you get comfortable enough in the DAW environment I think it's achievable.



BlackDorito said:


> I've kinda eliminated all serendipity that used to occur when I simply overdubbed a few instrumental tracks into a DAW.



This is a big reason why I've tried to get better at working that way. The spontaneity it allows is really valuable to me.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 26, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> I'm 55.  I'm a composer....(_wh_o)...... avoids parallel 5ths....................



Sears, you sure you're only 55?.......... 
Straight to notation gives you an instant score of course, but for me its manuscript then DAW if the LSO and Rattle aren't interested.


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## muk (Jan 26, 2020)

It's two very different ways of working. It's quicker to compose in the DAW for me, but the results I get are less imaginative. Thus I compose with paper and pencil mostly, orchestrate in Sibelius, and only for creating the mockup of the finished piece I turn to the daw. I compose directly in the daw only for simple staff, or if I have to be really quick and the quality of the music is not terribly important. 

In the daw I can't focus on voice leading, form, harmony etc the same way as I can on paper.


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## d.healey (Jan 26, 2020)

Most of the time I work in Musescore for the composition, then move over to a DAW for the performance.


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## Rob (Jan 26, 2020)

muk said:


> It's two very different ways of working. It's quicker to compose in the DAW for me, but the results I get are less imaginative. Thus I compose with paper and pencil mostly, orchestrate in Sibelius, and only for creating the mockup of the finished piece I turn to the daw. I compose directly in the daw only for simple staff, or if I have to be really quick and the quality of the music is not terribly important.
> 
> In the daw I can't focus on voice leading, form, harmony etc the same way as I can on paper.


Swap Sibelius with Finale and that’s exactly my workflow


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## angeruroth (Jan 26, 2020)

I used to compose using notation, but nowadays I play the keyboard or paint the notes in the piano roll.
The DAW makes it easier to use textured instruments where the sonic flow is already there, and to improvise with the keyboard (I also like to hear the strings when I'm composing for strings) but I find it easier to think about the counterpoint when I see a pentagram.
Not saying you can't write textured lines, harmony, counterpoint, etc. both ways, but some habits are hard to break.

Another reason for using only the DAW is speed. Everything is there, the notes but also EQ, comp, pan changes and various FXs that can be used as another dimension of the composition and I wouldn't know how to write in a score.
Maybe there is a way, but how do you write "at this point the string players move to the sides just before the flute starts that melody in the center, the the flute walks forward and the horns play a note while running from right to left"? (it may look like an absurd example, but I assure you it isn't; IMHO that sort of thing changes the feelings projected).

Thing is, IMHO the brain doesn't work the same way when writing notes one way or another, so it's always a compromise, and the impact in the composition can be huge. The oldest string pieces I uploaded to soundcloud (like Bordon or Remman, +7 yrs old tracks) are really different from the last ones, and the way I made the compositions is a key difference (although not the only one, that's for sure).


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## dcoscina (Jan 26, 2020)

I use Notion on iOS sometimes if I’m on the go, then export to Dorico (used to be Sibelius). Like others have said, going notation first, I can realize much more complex musical ideas better than my limited keyboard technique (not that im horrible- been playing since I was 13 and I’m 51 now). But most orchestral instruments behave differently than a piano and it’s important to think in terms of phrasing, something that work with samples can elude the best of us at times. 

I have found Cubase retrospective record to be a godsend however because it captures ideas beautifully if I am messing around. But so does Pianoteq. For me, it’s that damned fascist metronome that I find counterintuitive to composing music, especially music that flows. Hearing that bleep bloop tends to chain me to a tempo or a meter whereas I use tons of mixed meter in my notation composed scores. And I’m faster at developing key motives inside Dorico. 

however, this is all based on orchestral writing. If I’m working on a media related piece, I’m in the DAW. I have thought of scoring a scene using Dorico only. It has a video window so it’s possible to work inside that. I should try it.


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## giwro (Jan 26, 2020)

I’d say that it may indeed have an effect. Before notation programs, it was pencil and score paper for me - noodle at the piano and write. I did do some DAW-like stuff when I got my Kurzweil - that was fun, as I was a better improviser than sight-reader. Once I got Finale, it was noodle at the keyboard and notate on the screen, so very much similar to pencil and paper. I’ve used DAW’s over the years, but usually always post-notation... tweaking the MIDI export to make it musical.

What I’ve found is that it’s often difficult to get good part-writing if I just noddle into a DAW. Yes, I can knock stuff out more quickly, since I’m a decent improviser, but when that noodling is put in score form, I can’t escape the theory mistakes. I’d not want to have an orchestra play (or a conductor see) that kind of mess. I need to see the score while so I can verify the notes and voicings are right.

Here’s the thing, though. A significant number of my organ works grow out of improv... so I “noodle” and get a good idea, then I go back and use it as a genesis for the written piece. I usually can capture the spirit of the improv, but correct the glaring mistakes... so, that’s sort of like playing into a DAW, I guess.

Oddly enough, when writing orchestral stuff, I hear the orchestration in my head, and often the themes and structure come along with the orchestration. I guess I’m just weird....


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## nolotrippen (Jan 26, 2020)

I use Digital Performer 10 and almost always use the notation view to see what's going on. Note mean a lot more to me than little bars. It's a DAW first and a notation program second, make that 12th, but it works for me.


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## jbuhler (Jan 26, 2020)

muk said:


> In the daw I can't focus on voice leading, form, harmony etc the same way as I can on paper.


This is true for me as well with paper but not with notation software. I find I can focus on these elements just as well with piano roll notation in the DAW as compared to score notation with the notation program. Then too with Logic I can flip back to score if I need to. But paper is definitely different and even when I’m working straight to DAW I keep a music notebook open next to me for working out ideas of a certain sort. (That said voicing leading is carried and effectively realized as much in the habitual movement of the hands on the keyboard as by conscious attention to it in notation.) The notation program does offer a way of thinking about orchestral balance that can get lost in the DAW when I start layering libraries.


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## dcoscina (Jan 26, 2020)

I’m hoping Dorico continues to expand and eventually can replace my DAWs with the same quality finished product without having to spend hours on production. Notion initially had that idea back in 2005 but when Kack Jarrett sold it to Presonus, I think it went off the rails and became more of an adjunct to Studio One. Jarrett wanted to make a program that was not a DAW. It’s still a good composing vehicle but lacks the ability to produce finished score quality that an orchestra can play from.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 26, 2020)

mikeh-375 said:


> Sears, you sure you're only 55?..........


I'm sure. I'm diggin the discount at Dennys.  (American restaurant)



joebaggan said:


> I really can't stand piano rolls.


I can barely use them. 



muk said:


> In the daw I can't focus on voice leading, form, harmony etc the same way as I can on paper.


I've found over the years that most of my composing skill is visual. In ye olden times, I dreamed of having a fantastic midi violin setup that was accurate so I could write with it. I realize now that it wouldn't matter (or work) at all. I rarely use my keyboard for note input. I do much better with harmony/counterpoint etc if I can see it.


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 26, 2020)

I’m in the Dorico / Noteperformer appreciation society too. I compose on the piano and normally develop a two handed piano sketch. I get this into Dorico, and as Mike Verta is often fond of saying, I find that most of the orchestration is already implied in the voicings I have already chosen.

I usually then extract the piano parts up and down the score paper to the relevant instruments which give me a clear view of the SATB lines, and noteperformer is on hand for quick checks to ensure I haven’t gone off piste. It’s a great workflow,

I use an Elgato Streamdeck XL running Notation Express for Dorico, which I find to be a fabulous bit of kit. In fact I like it so much I’m considering buying the smaller one for use with my laptop on the road.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 26, 2020)

Sounds like the broad themes here are:

*Notation* - facilitates more complexity, control over voice-leading, harmony and form. Some like to hammer out a piano sketch first, then enter it into notation.

*DAW* - for quicker, simpler projects (Grossly speaking: notation for chamber/orch projects; DAW for media projects). More spontaneous happy accidents.

.. and some people seem to be comfortable with DAW for all projects. Indeed, I've seen some pretty elaborate and sophisticated tracks (either submitted to VI-C, or as product demo tracks) that were clearly implemented in DAWs and I'm thinking sheesh, how did they manage that without notation.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 26, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I've been moving slowly over to Dorico first from Cubase and it's the best thing I've ever done.


Simon, you've always had some great tracks out there .. and if you are just now switching, they must've been done within a DAW. Are you feeling you will do more sophisticated work with the notational capabilities of Dorico? What draws you to Dorico?


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## Matt Riley (Jan 26, 2020)

I compose with Logic and Finale side by side and sometimes sync’d with rewire. I mostly compose for live musicians and mostly orchestral music so this is a must. I use Logic to test ideas and sketch but I wait until every thing is finalized in Finale before I record in all the parts in Logic.


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## ism (Jan 26, 2020)

So I wrote a reply to this ... that then got a bit out of hand and went off into extended examples of my attempts to understand the nuances of writing particularly to specific strings libraries


... so posted in on this thread:









On Spitfire Studio Strings vs Light and Sound Chamber Strings : A tale of two musicalities.


This is something I wrote in response to post on this thread: https://vi-control.net/community/threads/who-composes-in-notation-programs-and-why.89505/ Which is discussing the process of writing in notation vs directly in a DAW. But my attempt to describe why I’ve found it necessary to...




vi-control.net






But it's still intended as a direct response to the OP.


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 26, 2020)

ism said:


> So I wrote a reply to this ... that then got a bit out of hand and went off into extended examples of my attempts to understand the nuances of writing particularly to specific strings libraries
> 
> 
> ... so posted in on this thread:
> ...




I apologise if I'm simplifying your long post, but it seems very much to me that you're writing music to the samples that you have - in effect writing for the sounds and libraries you use.

Now I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing.

I'm rather at the other end of things. I write the music I hear in my head and feel in my soul (easy with the cheese). Then I notate and attempt to realise it using the tools I have available to me. So it's mostly orchestrated before it even sees a sample library.

So I'm coming at it from the other end.

Do you find it restricting to work in this way ? (Genuine question).


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## ism (Jan 26, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> I'm apologise if I'm simplifying your long post, but it seems very much to me that you're writing music to the samples that you have - in effect writing for the sounds and libraries you use.
> 
> Now I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> ...



Very much so. And in that I don't necessarily ever expect a real orchestra to program any of my work, the ability to write actual music that can be shared and listened to is very much not a bad thing. 


I would nuance your statement "I write the music I hear in my head and feel in my soul" in that music doesn't really exists in a disembodied realm outside of real musician on real instruments making real air wobby in interesting ways. 


In my analogy with writing for classical guitar, I'm trying to emphasize the point in how I wouldn't start writing with an abstract chord progressions - I would find something that I could actually perform that offered a seed of nuance and "musicality" (whatever that is).

So in writing what you feel, I suspect that implicit in this is that you have the opportunity to work with real musicians, or have a depth of understanding of real orchestras that far exceeds mine.

Either way, I'm entirely jealous . 

If sample libraries had existed when I was a teenager (and not that stupid DX11 I tried, and tried to compose something interesting on) I'm sure I'd be an, almost certainly starving, but certainly full time composer now.


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 26, 2020)

ism said:


> So in writing what you feel, I suspect that implicit in this is that you have the opportunity to work with real musicians, or have a depth of understanding of real orchestras that far exceeds mine.
> 
> Either way, I'm entirely jealous .



Don't be - The reason I write with notation is that I simply would not be able to keep track of everything that is going on in an orchestral arrangement using a DAW piano roll, I'd soon be in complete chaos.

Also my ear is not to able to discern everything that is going on in complex arrangements - I need the score to keep track - so it's more my lack of experience and ability rather than a surfeit of it. I'm just an enthusiastic amateur. 

But if I were looking at music that was, say, 4-6 instruments - then sure - I could work like that. 

But a full orchestra with all those sections and articulations - It would be a disaster....


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## BlackDorito (Jan 26, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> But a full orchestra with all those sections and articulations - It would be a disaster....


Exactly. 

The attached screen grab is the section of score I'm working on this morning .. and it represents lots of note edits, transpositions, inserts, cut-paste, change velocity or artic for a particular set of notes .. on and on. I'm working in a two-dimensional visual format and I'm fairly fast at the edits. If I had to switch over to MIDI tracks, it would be a huge relearn for me.


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## Rodney Money (Jan 26, 2020)

If I am writing a piece for a client that the final product must sound good, then I start in a DAW. If I am writing a piece for a client that the final product is to be performed live, then I start straight into Finale. I could care less about the playback quality if I know I’m writing for live players. I have the advantage that I can hear it all in my head and know what’s it gonna sound like live, and I will also physically play every part making sure it’s idiomatic and the ornamentations work. If I am in need of quick money, and I’m done with the client and cannot wait for them to record the piece, then I will make a mock-up of the piece and send it to potential clients. Most of the time in Cubase, but if the Finale mock-up sounds decent I will just used that. Right now I am finishing up a brass band work and arranging my trumpet concerto into a concerto for all brass instruments for different clients. You want to hear the sad thing? I have not opened up a DAW since May.


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 26, 2020)

BlackDorito said:


> Exactly.
> 
> The attached screen grab is the section of score I'm working on this morning .. and it represents lots of note edits, transpositions, inserts, cut-paste, change velocity or artic for a particular set of notes .. on and on. I'm working in a two-dimensional visual format and I'm fairly fast at the edits. If I had to switch over to MIDI tracks, it would be a huge relearn for me.



Needs more cowbell....


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## BlackDorito (Jan 26, 2020)

Michael Antrum said:


> Needs more cowbell....


I've been thinking that too. I'm gonna go check my Perc libraries.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 26, 2020)

If I try to compose with notation I feel like I'm in a straitjacket. I've been reading music all through my Life starting at age 5, and I'm 58. I've also tried composing with coding systems like Common Music, Symbolic Composer etc., thinking I could write better that way but it never panned out.

For me, I'm an extremely physical person, I like to move. Watching Mike Verta play scores of ideas in rapid succession at the piano was inspiring for me. To do that in notation or the piano roll would take ages. Watching DeadMau$ painfully click in notes as he hunted for chords was like watching paint dry. I think physically you transmit your personality better through an instrument like a guitar player.

I have since embarked on upping my keyboard skills with Verta as the target. I try and practice an hour a day if possible. I played for years as a child and in college, but mostly classical repertoire which does nothing for improvisation. In a short amount of time spent doing so, I find it amazing how fast you can run through ideas on the keys and it's really not that hard to learn.

Let's face it, playing in 50% or more of your parts is light years faster than clicking, typing or penciling it in, and in this business, more work produced faster can lead to more dollars earned...


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 26, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> Let's face it, playing in 50% or more of your parts is light years faster than clicking, typing or penciling it in,


Not for me. Or more accurately, that's not how I write music.

I use copy/paste, transpose, Reduce, Explode, arrow up/down buttons. The repeat button (R on Sibelius) might be the one I use most. To write a scale it's R up R up R up R up etc. A passage in octaves? Press "8". Click on a note, press 3 3, it's now a triad. I skip around a lot. "Flute should have melody there". Sibelius has "Post-it Notes", I use those yellow suckers all the time. "Go back and fix measure 13".

This is why it is a "big deal" for me and others to consider jumping ship to another program like Dorico. My buddy uses Finale, a few years ago he bought Sibelius full version and I went to his house to try and give some pointers. He never switched. I can't really blame him. Once you've used one of these programs for years and years, it's so ingrained that it might be better to just deal with the flaws.


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## Thundercat (Jan 26, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> Not for me. Or more accurately, that's not how I write music.
> 
> I use copy/paste, transpose, Reduce, Explode, arrow up/down buttons. The repeat button (R on Sibelius) might be the one I use most. To write a scale it's R up R up R up R up etc. A passage in octaves? Press "8". Click on a note, press 3 3, it's now a triad. I skip around a lot. "Flute should have melody there". Sibelius has "Post-it Notes", I use those yellow suckers all the time. "Go back and fix measure 13".
> 
> This is why it is a "big deal" for me and others to consider jumping ship to another program like Dorico. My buddy uses Finale, a few years ago he bought Sibelius full version and I went to his house to try and give some pointers. He never switched. I can't really blame him. Once you've used one of these programs for years and years, it's so ingrained that it might be better to just deal with the flaws.


I cannot for the life of me "get" Dorico, yet. I will. After being spoilt with Sibelius all the previous years, it's a tough sell. But I do find the finished scores *so* much nicer in terms of layout and getting what I want with infinitely less fuss!

Old dog, new notation program + determination = future competence

Mike


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## d.healey (Jan 26, 2020)

InLight-Tone said:


> Let's face it, playing in 50% or more of your parts is light years faster than clicking, typing or penciling it in


Not for me. I treat composition and performance as two separate parts. If I'm writing something that will be played by live musicians then there is no need for me to expend time on a detailed mockup. I can produce a short score ready for a orchestrator/copyist more quickly than I could "compose" in a DAW.

For producing a mockup though nothing beats a DAW.


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## Sears Poncho (Jan 26, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> But I do find the finished scores *so* much nicer in terms of layout and getting what I want with infinitely less fuss!


For me, that's the 64 million dollar question (the whippersnappers will have to google that to see what it means  ). Like everybody, I want the parts to look great. I think they do already. Here is a snippet of a violin part I wrote for a show next week. The question is- does it get better? Because on nice paper etc, this looks fantastic IMO. I guess the question isn't "can it be better" but more "does it need to be better"? I would have zero problem reading this down....


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## wst3 (Jan 26, 2020)

for me, since you asked...

I work fastest with pencil and paper - right up to the part where I want to change something, then Finale gets the nod. But in either case I find working with notation forces me to think more, or maybe makes it easier for me to visualize what I want to hear, not sure which, but my favorite compositions have all started with notation.

Oddly enough, I do not work quickly when starting with the DAW, but I probably get my finished product in less elapsed time. And of course all the comments about improvisation vs composition certainly ring true. It is a different process, not better, not worse.

For me it is just which is more appropriate. And sometimes it is noodle on the guitar, record that, add some other stuff via MIDI either playing it in or notating it in the piano roll view. Sometimes that is exactly what I need. Other times I need that discipline of working with lines and little dots.

Sometimes!

Really all about the project - if whatever it is I am working on is going to be recorded by me and my libraries then it is going to end up in the DAW eventually. I'm playing with Dorico now, but for all that I love about Finale their Human Playback is anything but.

On the rare occasions that I write for live players I may do a mockup in the DAW, but I won't spend a lot of time on it. The written parts are the goal.

All of this begs the question, and it feels like we are circling around it, but wouldn't it be lovely if we could work with standard notation in a DAW. Seems like the holy grail. Presonus is trying with their Studio One/Notion combo. Logic Pro seems to have a good handle on it. Most of the rest of the DAWs remain DAWs, and the notation platforms remain notation platforms - with the exception of Dorico, which seems to be trying to break the barrier.

I downloaded the free version a couple weeks ago, spent the better part of a weekend playing with it, but the workflow is not natural to me - no surprise there, and we just did not get along. There is probably an issue with the limitations as well, but I was trying to keep it simple so as to not to get ahead of myself. I will revisit it.

So there you go, a thoroughly confused and non-committal answer!


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## CT (Jan 26, 2020)

When I write by hand, I skip most sketching and any short-scores and just go right into a full score. I orchestrate as I go, and I like to see everything properly split up like that rather than crammed onto a few staves. 

Working live into the DAW is somewhat similar to that in my mind, so maybe that's why I haven't found it *too* jarring to do that too. Sometimes I still need to write something out just to remember it, or to make sure parts don't clash, but I really am pleased by the progress I'm making with writing live, because again, I find the improvisatory/chance element it adds to be really valuable.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jan 26, 2020)

BlackDorito said:


> Simon, you've always had some great tracks out there .. and if you are just now switching, they must've been done within a DAW. Are you feeling you will do more sophisticated work with the notational capabilities of Dorico? What draws you to Dorico?



Thanks!

Sophisticated? Hopefully but more importantly I can see what the hell is going on at all times rather than staring at a million midi tracks. Auditioning ideas is a breeze, I can have my piano sketch running concurrently on a different screen and make changes where I need, the computing resources are so light compared to a 70 gig of ram orchestral template and it overall just feels less stressful.

I started score writing in Sibelius and I am so happy to have migrated to Dorico because it is absolutely fantastic. Once you understand the core concepts, it becomes very intuitive and the constant quality of life updates are amazing.

My 2 biggest issues writing in a notation program which I am hoping to overcome one day are
1. I can only sketch in Cubase at the moment - I need that open canvas to improvise
2. I still don't have complete confidence in textures and sounds I write without hearing them with proper samples (though noteperformer does an amazing job)


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## Michael Antrum (Jan 26, 2020)

There’s a program called Overture out there that is supposed to be that Bridge Program between DAW and score, but I hear it’s a one man show, and whilst a terrific achievement, is a bit bug happy.

Has anyone tried it out ?


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## JT (Jan 26, 2020)

When I write I use Finale and Noteperformer. I load up a blank piano file and sketch my ideas out. Some measures I will have a melody, a specific bass line and counter melodies, background rhythms, voice leading, etc.. At a minimum I'll have the melody and chord symbols. (a leadsheet)

When I was writing commercials, I wrote directly in the score. I'm semi retired now and write on my own projects using the workflow I mentioned above. I find now that if I go directly to score, I start thinking about production. And for me, I'd rather concentrate on my musical ideas first, let the orchestration and production come later.


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## Thundercat (Jan 26, 2020)

Sears Poncho said:


> For me, that's the 64 million dollar question (the whippersnappers will have to google that to see what it means  ). Like everybody, I want the parts to look great. I think they do already. Here is a snippet of a violin part I wrote for a show next week. The question is- does it get better? Because on nice paper etc, this looks fantastic IMO. I guess the question isn't "can it be better" but more "does it need to be better"? I would have zero problem reading this down....


Indeed that is quite nice!

Where I find Dorico kills it is when you have a lot of staves of music. In Sibelius it always took me a long time to fiddle with spacing of various kinds in order to make a good looking finished product. Dorico pretty much hits it out of the part (pun intended!). With little fuss.

But use whatever works for you; I'll always have a soft spot for Sibelius, and in fact I like it better than Dorico still. But that's because I suck at Dorico (still). ymmv.


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## trumpoz (Jan 26, 2020)

It depends what I am writing for. 

If what I a writing is intended for live performance then straight in to Sibelius. If it is an orchestral/wind ensemble work then Noteperformer is fine to send to publisher/client. If it is a big band chart then I'll mock-up/record various parts before sending it off.

If the piece is not intended to be played live then straight in to Cubase and write to the samples that I have (as much as I can).


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## BlackDorito (Jan 27, 2020)

Another broad statement:

- for those folks who are not constrained (or don't prefer) to 'think' in notation, they still use it to create a score for the situations where it will later be performed by a live ensemble, or subsequently can be played live into their DAW. The degree of 'finish' to the notation may drop off a bit if it is not to be played by a live ensemble.

I mean ... why else would someone bother putting all the little notes on the staves? 

Well, for me I'm generally using Sibelius _instead_ of a DAW (or you might say, _as_ a DAW). I intend to perform the score directly out of Sibelius, and thus it's gotta correctly and flexibly drive all the Kontakts hanging off it. [To be perfectly honest, I will throw the audio into Reaper for some final mastering]

Stravinsky said that after _Firebird_, he had the absolute conviction of his ear to compose the subsequent major works, like _The Rite_. Well, I've got the absolute conviction of my ear .. as long as it's VI-II-V-I or 12-bar blues. But that's not what I want to use orchestral VI libraries for. So in Sibelius, at any moment I can select any group of staves in any bar and hear exactly what the output sounds like. And this helps because ....

I'm generally looking to employ bitonality, mediants, new instrumental figures and textures that I've never heard before, and they often start out clunky until I can refine them by manipulating several instruments together. Requires aural feedback.
if I start developing a thematic passage, it becomes too complex to keep 'under my fingers' - I can't just rehearse it till its fluid on the keyboard. I need it preserved in the score as I'm playing around with it.
For those folks who are attempting what I'm attempting and can do it with pencil and paper, or DAW, I have envy. My method imposes some overhead since Sibelius doesn't have CC lanes.


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## MaxOctane (Jan 27, 2020)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I've been moving slowly over to Dorico first from Cubase and it's the best thing I've ever done.



Would love to hear why


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 27, 2020)

While not composing in Dorico yet, I bought it to copy scores into as a better way to score study. Really enjoying the workflow so far - and absorb so much more about the scores this way!


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## Will Blackburn (Jan 27, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> While not composing in Dorico yet, I bought it to copy scores into as a better way to score study. Really enjoying the workflow so far - and absorb so much more about the scores this way!



Exactly why i want to use it. Did you get the Pro version? I haven't done any notation since junior school so really not sure about forking out 480 on Pro yet but really want to use it for analysis. I downloaded the free version which seems abit pointless and by the looks of it the Elements version is too limited for score study.


Just out of interest, not sure if this is just because of the free version, but Dorico always cuts out the audio from other application (ie - the internet) when i run it simultaneously. Similar to how Cubase does unless you change the release driver option. Except i couldn't find any settings in preferences to change that behaviour. Is that the same with the paid versions?


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## thomasjdev (Jan 27, 2020)

Will Blackburn said:


> Just out of interest, not sure if this is just because of the free version, but Dorico always cuts out the audio from other application (ie - the internet) when i run it simultaneously. Similar to how Cubase does unless you change the release driver option. Except i couldn't find any settings in preferences to change that behaviour. Is that the same with the paid versions?



I'm on MacOS but under Preferences -> Play -> Audio Device it has the box to "Suspend Audio Device in Background" which I believe is for Windows users. Not sure if that helps


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## kitekrazy (Jan 27, 2020)

I do believe there are some users here that are old school and use pencil and paper.


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## Will Blackburn (Jan 27, 2020)

thomasjdev said:


> I'm on MacOS but under Preferences -> Play -> Audio Device it has the box to "Suspend Audio Device in Background" which I believe is for Windows users. Not sure if that helps



Thank Thomas but shouldn't need to tweak OS options. Cubase has it's own preference to not override other audio applications so i would have thought Dorico would have the same. It might be because it's the free version or im just blind


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## thomasjdev (Jan 27, 2020)

Will Blackburn said:


> Thank Thomas but shouldn't need to tweak OS options. Cubase has it's own preference to not override other audio applications so i would have thought Dorico would have the same. It might be because it's the free version or im just blind


Sorry about the misunderstanding. I meant in Dorico 3 under Preferences. But maybe they don't have that option in the free version


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## micrologus (Jan 27, 2020)

I write the score in MuseScore and then I import the midi in Logic Pro.


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## Will Blackburn (Jan 27, 2020)

thomasjdev said:


> Sorry about the misunderstanding. I meant in Dorico 3 under Preferences. But maybe they don't have that option in the free version



Ohhh sorry man i misread your post thinking you meant in the operating system. The option is there under play but unfortunately doesn't change the behaviour.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 27, 2020)

Will Blackburn said:


> Exactly why i want to use it. Did you get the Pro version? I haven't done any notation since junior school so really not sure about forking out 480 on Pro yet but really want to use it for analysis. I downloaded the free version which seems abit pointless and by the looks of it the Elements version is too limited for score study.



No, just Elements on the recent sale. While limited to 16 players, that’s more than enough for my purposes in terms of score study (I’m reducing the score down anyway to key components). One pro feature I would like is showing note names on each note (faster than sight reading for me), but not ready to pay the big upgrade fee just for that. I will also likely use this in the future to capture some piano ideas and maybe start practicing sketching out rough orchestration for some key players to get better at orchestrating. Maybe grab Noteperformer when I do.


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## thomasjdev (Jan 27, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> While not composing in Dorico yet, I bought it to copy scores into as a better way to score study. Really enjoying the workflow so far - and absorb so much more about the scores this way!


Do you have any favorite sources you get copies of your score from?
I know there are some sources like IMSLP but interested if there are others.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 27, 2020)

thomasjdev said:


> Do you have any favorite sources you get copies of your score from?
> I know there are some sources like IMSLP but interested if there are others.



I received some from teachers or courses. Reddit also has a number as does Scribd in their Documents section.


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## gyprock (Jan 27, 2020)

One advantage of notation is that patterns of notes e.g. a C major scale is immediately recognizable as a symbolic "blob". To see a scale in a piano roll, it is not immediately obvious which key it's in.

One advantage of the piano roll is that you can easily see gaps in vertical spacing when you view multiple tracks at once. This allow you to determine where counterlines or extra harmony could fit. It also shows you how much unison doubling is going on. This is not as clear in a full orchestral score.

Overall, I like to get ideas first by fiddling on piano or guitar and also in the DAW but then sketch and develop using Dorico with Noteperformer. Eventually Dorico will be integrated with other libraries such as Iconica with more user friendly DAW like functionality that will allow a much better mockup. It's getting close and I think this year there will be some significant strides made with Dorico.

For some of you that mentioned Notion, I loved this program for composing and wish its development didn't die.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 27, 2020)

gyprock said:


> One advantage of the piano roll is that you can easily see gaps in vertical spacing when you view multiple tracks at once.


Interesting to get other folks impressions of the value of various 'views' within the tools. I always thought of piano roll as a view that would help me easily touch up note overlaps, and drag a few note-starts & note-stops to give a bit of humanization. I never considered that someone might superimpose all the tracks and then observe "wow, there's a gaping hole in octave 3 in this passage, so I could insert a countermelody."

I do think a key visualization feature is to switch between 'forest' view and 'tree' view - i.e. zoom in and out. Sibelius allows you to zoom easily .. and I couldn't get the same capability within Reaper without a lot of mouse clicks (I'm sure @EvilDragon will chide me on this). Sometimes you need to manipulate individual notes, and sometimes you need to look at an entire passage. As @SimonCharlesHanna says, to see what the hell is going on.


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## dcoscina (Jan 27, 2020)

This is a great thread. A lot of good ones actually of late!


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 27, 2020)

Unlike typing words on a computer, I just don't have the same connection with notation programs I do with pencil and paper. The computer takes my head out of the music for some reason.

Is that just habit? Probably, but I've never used a notation program for composing, just for copying parts or transcribing MIDI. I also use the notation editor in Logic when I'm doubling parts.

So it's a combination of playing and scribbling and playing and scribbling. My fingers find things my brain doesn't and v.v.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> So it's a combination of playing and scribbling and playing and scribbling. My fingers find things my brain doesn't and v.v.


You never find yourself in a situation where the scribbling has gotten so complex that the playing can't keep up and you find yourself saying 'I wonder what this sounds like on the actual instruments I am contemplating" ?


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 27, 2020)

BlackDorito said:


> You never find yourself in a situation where the scribbling has gotten so complex that the playing can't keep up and you find yourself saying 'I wonder what this sounds like on the actual instruments I am contemplating" ?



Most of the time it's not really possible to scribble without hearing the notes, because you wouldn't know what to write if you didn't! But if that happened then I'd play it in.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 27, 2020)

One aspect I’ve found I like in Dorico, and I believe is unique to it, is they have a piano roll view alongside the notation view. And within the piano roll view, you can record edit MIDI as you normally would in terms of overlaps, slightly different durations, etc., but Dorico maintains a fixed duration setting per note so while the MIDI is humanized the notation won’t be. This was a big challenge for me in Logic and Cubase.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 27, 2020)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> it's not really possible to scribble without hearing the notes, because you wouldn't know what to write


My general attitude may be a bit different - because I typically don't need to please a client - in that if I can clearly hear a tonal passage in my mind's ear, I have a strong desire to muck around with it in a way that a fully loaded 'Sibelius template' (i.e. a notational editing environment combined with a full set of high-quality VI libraries attached) allows me to do. These proclivities have insured that my royalty stream buys me lattes and nothing more.


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## cmillar (Jan 27, 2020)

As one who started composing/arranging with pencil and scorepads .... I still love pencil/scorepaper for my initial thoughts and the planning out of a piece or any project. It gets my juices flowing, and I can mess around on the piano to explore melodic and harmonic possibilities (while imaging most of the orchestration in my mind)

1. - if the end-result of a project is to be an actual finished/mastered recording for the project (video, film, live show, etc.) then I'll start my sketch on paper, but then go to my DAW to start recording and flushing out the project.

BUT... because the actual samples (and the inherent weaknesses or strengths of instrumental samples) will always 'dictate' what will actually sound good on the final project) I have to wait until I'm actually working in the DAW in order to finalize and decide on some orchestrations and harmony.

2. - if a project is to be scored out with a real paper score and instrumental parts for live players, then I'll still start with pen/paper before going to my notation program to input notes and print out parts.

BUT...again, depending on the project, sometimes I'll input my pencil/paper/piano sketches into my notation program and then start to flush out the rest of my composition... with the added benefit of being able to use 'NotePerformer' for playback (and for a finished demo as well!)

Each project is handled differently. I know that if all I do is go directly to my DAW and start noodling around with various sound libraries and synths trying to find some inspirational sounds, then I usually just end up wasting hours and days getting nothing done except hearing some cool sounds (... which could or could not inspire me or force me to make some changes to my iinitial thinking....which could be hit or miss or actually very beneficial....but it's usually a real time-waster).

So.....first....pencil-paper-piano.....imagination....rough sketches....

If that method was good enough for Beethoven, then it's good enough for me.


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## Geomir (Jan 28, 2020)

I could never do it without a notation program! For me it's not optional, it's totally required! As a classically trained piano/keyboard player, I cannot use the various piano rolls for composing! I want to see the "real thing"! 

So I compose in my notation program (at least the main chords, melodies, etc. for most of the instruments), then I export to midi file, import the file to my DAW, replace the general midi instruments with sample libraries, add key-switching if required, overlap some notes for legato, add drums or drum loops, automation clips, dynamics, fix the volume, do some panning, mixing, mastering, and it's ready!

So everything for me starts from the notation program! It's there that my songs are being actually born!


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## Geomir (Jan 28, 2020)

d.healey said:


> Most of the time I work in Musescore for the composition, then move over to a DAW for the performance.


OMG you manage to say in a small sentence the same thing I tried to said in... 3 paragraphs! I must surely improve my English!


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## WillMah Gold (Jan 28, 2020)

After using (or fiddling around with) Sibelius and Notion for years in ReWire connection with Cubase, I have now switched to Dorico as a notation program. I have created a rough sketch template, sometimes I also sketch with 2 piano systems and then I produce the finished mockup in Cubase. It is easier for me to write music with a notation program, I don't know exactly why. Perhaps it kind of feels more "real". 
However, I miss the Rewire function, because running both programs simultaneously and comparing things quickly and being able to edit them almost simultaneously is extremely useful in the media area. So if Dorico (finally) added a rewire function, Dorico would be the most useful notation program on the market, IMHO, not only for media projects but also for live performances. As we say in Germany: "Die eierlegende Wollmilchsau!" :-D 
(Google translate this as "The egg-laying wool milk sow!")


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## MauroPantin (Jan 28, 2020)

I work out melodies in notation. Basically, all the counterpoint stuff, I do on paper. Once I'm satisfied with the melody and the variations and other lines, I go the rest of the way with the DAW, since the orchestration part feels more intuitive to me once I have the ranges of the lines worked out.


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## jbuhler (Jan 28, 2020)

Geomir said:


> I could never do it without a notation program! For me it's not optional, it's totally required! As a classically trained piano/keyboard player, I cannot use the various piano rolls for composing! I want to see the "real thing"!
> 
> So I compose in my notation program (at least the main chords, melodies, etc. for most of the instruments), then I export to midi file, import the file to my DAW, replace the general midi instruments with sample libraries, add key-switching if required, overlap some notes for legato, add drums or drum loops, automation clips, dynamics, fix the volume, do some panning, mixing, mastering, and it's ready!
> 
> So everything for me starts from the notation program! It's there that my songs are being actually born!


The piano roll is just another form of notation, and I've learned to "read" it (and indeed hear it before playback) much as I read and hear score notation. The two notations each have their own peculiar benefits and liabilities. But neither is, imho, the "real thing." (I'm very old school having learned with pencil and paper.) And while I do often work things out on paper (only rarely in notation programs), I find it surprisingly liberating to work out counterpoint, even dense counterpoint, aurally or in the piano roll and with better results. I will also often do a sketch score in the DAW laid out very much like a short score—winds, brass, percussion and harp, strings with ensemble patches—and then move from there to a more refined version with the individual instruments broken out. When writing for a live ensemble (either for performance or recording), I proceed differently since there you need parts and conforming midi to score notation is not generally as straightforward as it should be.


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## Geomir (Jan 28, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> The piano roll is just another form of notation, and I've learned to "read" it (and indeed hear it before playback) much as I read and hear score notation. The two notations each have their own peculiar benefits and liabilities. But neither is, imho, the "real thing." (I'm very old school having learned with pencil and paper.) And while I do often work things out on paper (only rarely in notation programs), I find it surprisingly liberating to work out counterpoint, even dense counterpoint, aurally or in the piano roll and with better results. I will also often do a sketch score in the DAW laid out very much like a short score—winds, brass, percussion and harp, strings with ensemble patches—and then move from there to a more refined version with the individual instruments broken out. When writing for a live ensemble (either for performance or recording), I proceed differently since there you need parts and conforming midi to score notation is not generally as straightforward as it should be.


For me the "real thing" will always be the original music notation sheets, in which I can understand everything that's going on with a fast view!

If I advance to your level, I could save so much time in my workflow! If I could get used to write directly in the piano roll, I could avoid the frustration of importing the midi file, changing all the instruments, and then correct many things (like legato transitions, etc)... 

Right now I catch myself leaning my head to the left, so I can see the piano roll in a "horizontal view"! But I think slowly I am getting used to it! I do many more corrections and changes in the piano roll than in the past. I suppose I am in a good way!


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## Vonk (Jan 28, 2020)

I compose mostly within the DAW because I'm often working in a hybrid style using soundscapes and effects with orchestral instruments. However I like the idea of writing with a notation app and I've tried out some as trials. I have watched Dorico develop with interest, but I've never jumped because of the seeming lack of integration with Cubase. Maybe that's improved now? For pure orchestral writing it seems a very attractive idea.
However the thing I never quite get over is the clumsiness of mouse dragging as a technique, compared to a pencil and paper. I've never got beyond finding it very frustrating. Has anyone ever found using a stylus an effective method of working, and if so, with what? Or what mehods do you use for entry that suit you best?


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## giwro (Jan 28, 2020)

Vonk said:


> I compose mostly within the DAW because I'm often working in a hybrid style using soundscapes and effects with orchestral instruments. However I like the idea of writing with a notation app and I've tried out some as trials. I have watched Dorico develop with interest, but I've never jumped because of the seeming lack of integration with Cubase. Maybe that's improved now? For pure orchestral writing it seems a very attractive idea.
> However the thing I never quite get over is the clumsiness of mouse dragging as a technique, compared to a pencil and paper. I've never got beyond finding it very frustrating. Has anyone ever found using a stylus an effective method of working, and if so, with what? Or what mehods do you use for entry that suit you best?


 
I would _never_ advocate for "mousing" notes into a notation program... oy, I think I'd rather shove an ice pick in my eye 
The only way I've ever found to get notes in quickly and accurately in a notation program is by choosing the notes via a MIDI keyboard (I don't mean live playing - typically most notation programs allow a speedy entry choosing pitch with a MIDI keyboard, and duration is selected by key commands on the computer keyboard or number pad). I've tried the various handwriting-recognition apps - Staffpad, even Notion on the iPad... I can still enter notes faster by MIDI and key commands... YMMV


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 28, 2020)

Geomir said:


> I could never do it without a notation program! For me it's not optional, it's totally required! As a classically trained piano/keyboard player, I cannot use the various piano rolls for composing! I want to see the "real thing"!



That's how I use the notation *editor* - to show me what's going on when I don't know. Well, that and the pencil/paper scribble.

And you have the advantage of being a real keyboard player! It's always interesting how differently people's brains work! I've used the piano roll as my main editor since my first computer sequencer - Passport Designs Mastertracks Pro.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 28, 2020)

giwro said:


> I would _never_ advocate for "mousing" notes into a notation program... oy, I think I'd rather shove an ice pick in my eye
> The only way I've ever found to get notes in quickly and accurately in a notation program is by choosing the notes via a MIDI keyboard (I don't mean live playing - typically most notation programs allow a speedy entry choosing pitch with a MIDI keyboard, and duration is selected by key commands on the computer keyboard or number pad). I've tried the various handwriting-recognition apps - Staffpad, even Notion on the iPad... I can still enter notes faster by MIDI and key commands... YMMV


I've always clicked (mouse or keyboard) my notes in. It's second nature in Sibelius now. When I started trying to do the same operations in Dorico ... well, it's good there was no gun, knife or ice pick around. Finding yourself suddenly less fluent - like when I need to write cursive instead of typing on a keyboard - can be aggravating and a huge impediment to switching.


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## ed buller (Jan 28, 2020)

BlackDorito said:


> Stravinsky said that after _Firebird_, he had the absolute conviction of his ear to compose the subsequent major works, like _The Rite_.




Stravinsky relied on the piano heavily . The first performance of the Rite in his little Hotel room in Clarens had Debussy on the Bass...Igor On the Treble and Diaghilev in shock !

best

e


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 28, 2020)

ed buller said:


> Stravinsky relied on the piano heavily . The first performance of the Rite in his little Hotel room in Clarens had Debussy on the Bass...Igor On the Treble and Diaghilev in shock !
> 
> best
> 
> e




.....don't forget his whisky too Ed.
That masterpiece also had Nijinsky brushing up on his math....


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## joebaggan (Jan 28, 2020)

giwro said:


> I would _never_ advocate for "mousing" notes into a notation program... oy, I think I'd rather shove an ice pick in my eye
> The only way I've ever found to get notes in quickly and accurately in a notation program is by choosing the notes via a MIDI keyboard (I don't mean live playing - typically most notation programs allow a speedy entry choosing pitch with a MIDI keyboard, and duration is selected by key commands on the computer keyboard or number pad).



I agree, having a fast workflow is essential in notation software (since it can be so tedious), and for me that means using the mouse as little as possible. So using a midi keyboard helps along with being able to create custom key commands/macros to do laborious things easily and quickly. Also, have started using the Stream Deck XL with Dorico and that helps even more, assigning a button to do something that would take multiple key strokes or mouse clicks otherwise.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jan 28, 2020)

MaxOctane said:


> Would love to hear why


There's no short answer but to summarize, I suppose I would say that it gives me more time to think purely about the music and not worry about samples.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 28, 2020)

ed buller said:


> little Hotel room in Clarens


I used to live in the canton of Vaud as a child ... it's either in Clarens or Morges where they had signs showing where Stravinsky lived. Later in life, after I figured out who he was, I drove by his house in Hollywood ... completely nondescript, couldn't see anything. Very close to Capitol Records. Ah well .. never got to actually see any of my early heroes - Strav, Copland or Bill Evans.


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## IvanP (Jan 29, 2020)

Rob said:


> Swap Sibelius with Finale and that’s exactly my workflow





muk said:


> It's two very different ways of working. It's quicker to compose in the DAW for me, but the results I get are less imaginative. Thus I compose with paper and pencil mostly, orchestrate in Sibelius, and only for creating the mockup of the finished piece I turn to the daw. I compose directly in the daw only for simple staff, or if I have to be really quick and the quality of the music is not terribly important.
> 
> In the daw I can't focus on voice leading, form, harmony etc the same way as I can on paper.



Same workflow Here. With Sibelius. I bought Dorico as well, but still haven't had the guts to do a project with it with a deadline.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 29, 2020)

ed buller said:


> Stravinsky relied on the piano heavily . The first performance of the Rite in his little Hotel room in Clarens had Debussy on the Bass...Igor On the Treble and Diaghilev in shock !



Contrast that to people like Bernard Herrmann writing in ink directly onto the score.


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## BlackDorito (Jan 29, 2020)

This thread has been an interesting snapshot of how composers use the available tools and methods for their particular project types ... so I thought I would share my accumulated notes. 

Of course, to comprehensively review VI-C for how we use notation apps would mean scanning countless other threads – ain’t gonna do that. Still, I’ve detected some themes, but also some variation (.. I mean hey, we’re musicians). 

Below is a list I assembled for myself culled from the posts. I certainly learned a lot about how the rest of you operate. Some of it was perhaps common sense or represented decisions I had to make about tools/methods in years past .. but some of it got me thinking about how to improve my workflow – in the direction of DAWs in my case, since I primarily use notation. Very specifically for my setup, I am now thinking:

For any new orchestral project for which I start with a Sibelius template (empty Sibelius orchestral score with a bunch of Kontakts hanging off it holding Spitfire / OT / CS instruments), I will set up the equivalent Cubase template that I can bring up and noodle with to flesh out ideas, that will be my interactive canvas
I will record my Cubase orchestral noodles/overdubs into my multitrack and then they will be available when I’m in Sibelius. [Can’t have two large templates running at once]

*NOTES*

General Statements

composition and performance are separate activities, separate tools
I orchestrate in my head - then realize with samples. I don't write to the samples
simply put: Musescore for composition, DAW for performance
Using Keyboard

piano noodling is where I get my ideas
composing with piano (or other instrument) is faster to spin out ideas, and adds my personality/physicality
whenever I work with piano (e.g. w/P&P) I end up writing piano music
I get ideas on piano/guitar .. then sketch and develop in notation
I play / scribble / play / scribble /etc. Sometimes my fingers find things, sometime my brain does
Debussy and Stravinsky improvised a lot at the keyboard
Paper & Pencil (P&P)

I compose with P&P, orchestrate in Sibelius, then mockup in DAW if needed
I work fastest with P&P until I need to edit - then I use notation. My favorites of my works all started with notation
I write the full score, not a sketch. I like to see everything split out.
P&P is good for initial thoughts and planning a piece; I can mess with melody & harmony (with orchestration in my mind)
P&P -> piano -> imagination -> sketch
Notation Programs

more comfortable with it; my composing skill is visual
note patterns are immediately identifiable
good for those with limited keyboard skills
I’m using Dorico with NotePerformer to develop orchestral ideas
I noodle at piano but get into orchestral notation soon
Notation is the format used by the Great Composers
moving to Dorico lets me see what's going on; zooming in/out
notation never worked for me - I will use P&P if I need to notate; working with the menus kills me
for live performance, part scores are the goal. Occasionally need to make a mockup on the DAW; NotePerformer allows this easily
can express more complex ideas
faster at creating key motives
better when employing lots of mixed meters
I load a blank piano template in Finale to sketch … if I use a full score template I will think about orchestration and production too soon
notation is where my songs are born
with Dorico, Sibelius->Rewire->Cubase is no longer needed
Dorico will soon be "The egg-laying wool milk sow!"
DAW

I compose in DAW but think in notation
I use DAW for media related pieces
I use it for simpler, more relatable tracks; alternate: writing 'live' with a certain level of complexity is doable
the DAW makes me feel like I'm improvising, not considering every note - phrases and parts are too long, repetitive, uninspired and unrefined, voice leading is bad, orchestration ends up being too static
facilitates improvisation more than composition
the spontaneity / serendipity / chance elements are important to me
OK for repetitive figures by design. Anything more intricate I find impossibly tedious to write with a 'live into a DAW' mindset
quicker to compose, but less imaginative
In the DAW I can't focus on voice leading, form, harmony etc the same way as I can on paper
easier when using textured instruments / Evos / etc.
DAW has EQ, pan, compression, FX
recording w/the metronome is counterproductive for music that flows
hard to result in good part writing; wouldn't want an orchestra to play these parts as-is (need to be fixed up)
if no mockup is needed, I don't use a DAW
I need the DAW as an open canvas to sketch / noodle / improvise
If it will not be performed (by humans) I go straight to Cubase and write to the samples I have
if I have a live show/video/film, I produce in the DAW. Ultimately I need to write to the samples
I use the DAW for a sketch score using ensemble voices for winds, brass, strings … then I break them out later
Multiple Views

I use Digital Performer .. but I need to see the Notation view
Logic and Finale side by side - sometimes with Rewire - to test ideas and sketch
Dorico has piano roll and notation side-by-side
Piano Roll

hate it - I need to see the real notes
love it
I either play the notes in or paint in the piano roll
this view is chaos compared to notation for orchestral arrangements
can see vertical gaps and fill in
I would save time if I could work initially with piano roll, instead of notation -> import MIDI -> piano roll
P&P to Notation or DAW

I start with 2-hand piano sketch and then go to Dorico
sometimes direct to DAW, sometimes I write things by hand first
start with P&P for all melodies, counterpoint. Then take to DAW since orchestration is intuitive at that point
Notation to DAW

need to see music in notation - then export to DAW to use quality Vis
first manuscript then DAW if the LSO shuns me
DAW to notation - not easy to conform the MIDI to score notation
I compose in my notation program (at least the main chords, melodies, etc. for most of the instruments), then I export to midi file, import the file to my DAW, replace the general midi instruments with sample libraries, add key-switching if required, overlap some notes for legato, add drums or drum loops, automation clips, dynamics, fix the volume, do some panning, mixing, mastering, and it's ready!


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## thomasjdev (Jan 29, 2020)

I’ve been really enjoying this thread and thanks for compiling a great recap of all the themes coming out of this discussion!


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 30, 2020)

I write the orchestration first and then go to DAW. I never got used to writing music with the mouse and that is why I use Staffpad for composing.
The software is far from being 100% professional but for my own sampling it works just fine. If I need to deliver a full score for an orchestra I export the score to Sibelius.

Many years ago when I started to work with sample libraries I was writing music directly on the DAW. The switch from DAW to scores has been one of the best things I've ever done to become a better composer.


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## jonathanparham (Jan 30, 2020)

leogardini said:


> I write the orchestration first and then go to DAW. I never got used to writing music with the mouse and that is why I use Staffpad for composing.
> The software is far from being 100% professional but for my own sampling it works just fine. If I need to deliver a full score for an orchestra I export the score to Sibelius.


Staffpad is the only reason I have a Surface Pro. Good stuff when I want to get a part out quickly.


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## mikeh-375 (Jan 30, 2020)

staffad is great for old school sketching.


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## Leandro Gardini (Jan 30, 2020)

jonathanparham said:


> Staffpad is the only reason I have a Surface Pro. Good stuff when I want to get a part out quickly.


The same here!


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## CT (Jan 30, 2020)

Wow, I have somehow not known about Staffpad until now. I need to seriously look into this, because while notation programs will never work for me, being able to write by hand but still have it "cleaned up" into something that can presumably be dropped into a DAW might be a major improvement for me.

Ah. As usual, got ahead of myself. Seems nice but not what I hoped for.


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## Bollen (Feb 5, 2020)

miket said:


> Wow, I have somehow not known about Staffpad until now. I need to seriously look into this, because while notation programs will never work for me, being able to write by hand but still have it "cleaned up" into something that can presumably be dropped into a DAW might be a major improvement for me.
> 
> Ah. As usual, got ahead of myself. Seems nice but not what I hoped for.


Why?


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