# Must Watch: Hearing Loss and Mixing



## robgb (Jul 24, 2021)




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## Alchemedia (Jul 24, 2021)

*ATTN MODS*: This subject warrants a dedicated forum IMO.

*Long periods of exposure to sounds exceeding 85 decibels, the equivalent of busy street traffic, is considered risky. *The pain threshold is 125 decibels. The average rock concert is 115 decibels, 10 decibels below a jackhammer or ambulance. The permissible exposure time before damage occurs at 115 decibels is three minutes, according to data from 3M Occupational Health and Environmental Safety Division. Sound systems in some arenas and stadiums can hit 140 decibels. That’s louder than a jet engine.

People think Pete Townsend lost his hearing as a direct result of Moonie's Smothers Brothers exploding drum stunt, and it was most likely a contributing factor, however Pete claims is was actually due to extensive headphone usage in the studio. I'm sure those maxed-out HiWatt amps didn't help matters either, however I do believe that headphones are less obvious and extremely detrimental to your hearing regardless of volume levels. It's virtually impossible to use headphone at volumes low enough not to cause hearing damage over time. No doubt headphones make my tinnitus far worse and if you've haven't experienced tinnitus consider yourself fortunate--it's maddening!

Short list of well known musicians who have admitted to hearing loss:
George Martin (who began experiencing hearing loss in the ’70s after years of long stretches in the studio. Nearly deaf when he retired in 1998, he was wearing two hearing aids and had learned to lip-read), Eric Clapton, Neil Young, Ozzy Osbourne, Danny Elfman, Anthony Kiedis, Barbara Streisand, James Hetfield, Lars Ulrich, Liam Gallagher, John Densmore, Mick Fleetwood, Huey Lewis, Moby, Sting. Roger Daltrey's deaf and has to resort to lip-reading. Both Pete and Rodger wear hearing aids. It's amazing those two are still touring.

*Common Sources of Noise and Decibel Levels*​How loud something sounds to you is not the same as the actual intensity of that sound. Sound intensity is the amount of sound energy in a confined space. It is measured in decibels (dB). The decibel scale is logarithmic, which means that loudness is not directly proportional to sound intensity. Instead, the intensity of a sound grows very fast. This means that a sound at 20 dB is 10 times more intense than a sound at 10 dB. Also, the intensity of a sound at 100 dB is one billion times more powerful compared to a sound at 10 dB.

Two sounds that have equal intensity are not necessarily equally loud. Loudness refers to how you perceive audible sounds. A sound that seems loud in a quiet room might not be noticeable when you are on a street corner with heavy traffic, even though the sound intensity is the same. In general, to measure loudness, a sound must be increased by 10 dB to be perceived as twice as loud. For example, ten violins would sound only twice as loud as one violin.

*The risk of damaging your hearing from noise increases with the sound intensity, not the loudness of the sound! *If you need to raise your voice to be heard at an arm’s length, the noise level in the environment is likely above 85 dB in sound intensity and could damage your hearing over time. A whisper is about 30 dB, normal conversation is about 60 dB, and a motorcycle engine running is about 95 dB. Noise above 70 dB over a prolonged period of time may start to damage your hearing. Loud noise above 120 dB can cause immediate harm to your ears.

EXAMPLES:
Gas-powered lawnmowers and leaf blowers 80-85dbs: Damage to hearing possible after 2 hours of exposure
Motorcycle 95dB: Damage to hearing possible after about 50 minutes of exposure
Approaching subway train, car horn at 16 feet (5 meters), and sporting events (such as hockey playoffs and football games) 10dB: Hearing loss possible after 15 minutes
The maximum volume level for personal listening devices; a very loud radio, stereo, or television; and loud entertainment venues (such as nightclubs, bars, and rock concerts) 105–110dB:
Hearing loss possible in less than 5 minutes
Shouting or barking in the ear 110dB: Hearing loss possible in less than 2 minutes
Standing beside or near sirens 120dB: Pain and ear injury
Firecrackers 140–150dB: Pain and ear injury


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## hoxclab (Jul 24, 2021)

Good topic. I think he made a good point about supplements. I noticed ever since I've became very strict about my diet. My ears have improved and I no longer suffer tinnitus like I was. Our bodies can heal from injury and that includes our ears. It's not the end of the world. Stay healthy people.


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## Alchemedia (Jul 24, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> Good topic. I think he made a good point about supplements. I noticed ever since I've became very strict about my diet. My ears have improved and I no longer suffer tinnitus like I was. Our bodies can heal from injury and that includes our ears. It's not the end of the world. Stay healthy people.


That's unfortunately not true.

There is no cure for tinnitus. However, it can be temporary or persistent, mild or severe, gradual or instant. 

Hearing loss due to damaged stereocilia is permanent.

Stereocilia is the technical name for the 15,000 or so tiny hair cells inside our *cochlea*—the small, snail-shaped organ for hearing in the inner ear. The cells are called hair cells because tiny bundles of stereocilia—which look like hairs under a microscope—sit on top of each hair cell.

Inner hair cells collect and relay sound information to the brain through the auditory nerve. Outer hair cells, work to amplify sounds, helping us to pick up quiet sounds by making them seem louder. Outer hair cells also help us tell the difference between the pitches of sounds, even when the difference between two pitches is very small. Outer hair cells exist in a Y-shaped formation that is repeated thousands of times across the cochlea. When sounds are too loud for too long, these bundles are damaged. Damaged hair cells cannot respond to sound, causing noise-induced hearing loss. Since hair cells can’t be repaired or replaced in humans, hearing loss is often permanent.


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## hoxclab (Jul 24, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> That's unfortunately not true.
> 
> There is no cure for tinnitus. However, it can be temporary or persistent, mild or severe, gradual or instant.
> 
> ...


I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. Before I had tubes put in my ears, twice, I had incredible hearing loss at around 50% due to fluid in my ears and constant ear infections something which I do not have at all now. I had multiple hearing tests done. I used to have tinnitus very badly. I no longer experience tinnitus like I was. You can go read others experiences similar to mine online if you wish. I'm not sure why you are so evangelical about this topic but I suggest you do more research. You can manage tinnitus and reduce the symptoms in many different ways. Dude from Kush was even talking about this in his video about how he got frequencies back after a supplement.


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## Alchemedia (Jul 24, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. Before I had tubes put in my ears, twice, I had incredible hearing loss at around 50% due to fluid in my ears and constant ear infections something which I do not have at all now. I had multiple hearing tests done. I used to have tinnitus very badly. I no longer experience tinnitus like I was. You can go read others experiences similar to mine online if you wish. I'm not sure why you are so evangelical about this topic but I suggest you do more research. You can manage tinnitus and reduce the symptoms in many different ways. Dude from Kush was even talking about this in his video about how he got frequencies back after a supplement.


I've been to numerous specialists and done extensive research. Hearing loss due to fluid or infection as in your case is something else altogether. That's not what I or Gregory "dude from Kush" Scott was referring to. 
 
*Tinnitus can be temporary or persistent, mild or severe, gradual or instant. *
*Hearing loss due to damaged stereocilia is permanent. *

There is no magic supplement that will cure it. If there was I'd be a stockholder in the company that manufactures it. That being said, there are various things you can try to temporarily alieveiate the symptom in some cases, however I am not aware of anything that is scientifically proven to work. If you are, please let me know--I'm all ears! Again, I'm referring specifically to noise related hearing issues.


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## robgb (Jul 25, 2021)

While I'm glad your tinnitus went away, there is no known cure. I've had it for decades and it ain't going anywhere.


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## PeterN (Jul 25, 2021)

This guy does great mixing vids. Those not familiar with channel should check it out. Kush After Hours, one of best on youtube. Its not following script, he takes it further.


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## MartinH. (Jul 25, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> It's virtually impossible to use headphone at volumes low enough not to cause hearing damage over time.


Why/how? I was planning to work more with headphones in the future. But I consider myself extremely sensitive to loudness - I've encountered people that talk (not shout) so loudly that I find it slightly painful. So I try to keep headphone volume at normal talking loudness or lower.


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## hoxclab (Jul 25, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> I've been to numerous specialists and done extensive research. Hearing loss due to fluid or infection as in your case is something else altogether. That's not what I or Gregory "dude from Kush" Scott was referring to.
> 
> *Tinnitus can be temporary or persistent, mild or severe, gradual or instant. *
> *Hearing loss due to damaged stereocilia is permanent. *
> ...


Actually he was. Perhaps you need your ears checked? 

I linked the video to the exact moment he talks about the fluid build up from sinus infections and allergies. Again, you're talking out the side of your neck.


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## b_elliott (Jul 25, 2021)

robgb said:


>



Fascinating. Ex-drummer myself. 

Did I not just post on vi's composer subforum one of my songs asking for ears to comment on my mix's top-end I can no longer hear so well? 

Then I see this thread.

I like Kush's tip to swap L-R channels while mixing as one way to hear when there is asymmetry going on with your hearing. On Reaper, I just tried that with two js plugins (js-Chan; js-chan/vol/polarity) both were helpful to overcome that obstacle. Simple. 

Cheers, Bill


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## el-bo (Jul 25, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> Again, you're talking out the side of your neck.


Is that a common symptom of tinnitus? 

Just checking for a friend


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## NekujaK (Jul 25, 2021)

I have some of the same hearing impairments that Gregory Scott has (asymmetrical hearing, tinnitus, hi frequency loss) so I found it interesting that my mixes generally fit the same exact sonic profile that he described for his mixes when stacked up against iZotope's Tonal Balance Control. Fascinating.

I loved Gregory's tip of applying a LPF and then selectiviely boosting upper frequencies (that I can no longer hear) to gain control of the top end. That's a brilliant approach I'm going to start using right away.

Also, I know general advice is to mix at 85db because that's where the Fletcher-Munson curve is flattest, but I find 85db to be excruciatingly loud to my ears. If I try working at 85db for just 10-15 minutes, my ears will start ringing (beyond the usual tinnitus) and my hearing clouds up. Ususally takes a whole day, sometimes two, before hearing returns to "normal". So I mostly mix around 65db and occasionally check my mixes at 85db in short bursts. There are definitely things you don't hear at 65db, so checking at higher volumes is an important thing to do, but I can't endure it for long periods of time without impacting my hearing.

Take care of those ears, folks!


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## robgb (Jul 25, 2021)

b_elliott said:


> On Reaper, I just tried that with two js plugins (js-Chan; js-chan/vol/polarity) both were helpful to overcome that obstacle. Simple.


In Reaper if you set your panning to stereo pan on the master buss, you can flip the width knob from 100 to -100 to reverse the left/right. You don't need to deal with any plugins.


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## Martin S (Jul 25, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> Actually he was. Perhaps you need your ears checked?
> 
> I linked the video to the exact moment he talks about the fluid build up from sinus infections and allergies. Again, you're talking out the side of your neck.



It is still two different conditions. Maybe you should have your eyes checked? It appears you didn’t read what Alchemedia wrote, so I’ll post again:

Tinnitus can be temporary or persistent, mild or severe, gradual or instant.
*Hearing loss due to damaged stereocilia is permanent.*

Common Causes​
Noise exposure. Exposure to loud noises can damage the outer hair cells, which are part of the inner ear. These hair cells do not grow back once they are damaged. Even short exposure to very loud sounds, such as gunfire, can be damaging to the ears and cause permanent hearing loss. Long periods of exposure to moderately loud sounds, such as factory noise or music played through earphones, can result in just as much damage to the inner ear, with permanent hearing loss and tinnitus. Listening to moderately loud sounds for hours at a young age carries a high risk of developing hearing loss and tinnitus later in life.


https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/noise-induced-hearing-loss


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## Alchemedia (Jul 25, 2021)

Martin S said:


> It is still two different conditions. Maybe you should have your eyes checked? It appears you didn’t read what Alchemedia wrote, so I’ll post again:
> 
> Tinnitus can be temporary or persistent, mild or severe, gradual or instant.
> *Hearing loss due to damaged stereocilia is permanent.*


Thanks Martin. It's like arguing with an anti-vaxxer. 🙄


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## Martin S (Jul 25, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Thanks Martin. It's like arguing with an anti-vaxxer. 🙄


You’re welcome. When empirical facts are being talked down/ridiculed, it makes my blood boil


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## hoxclab (Jul 25, 2021)

Martin S said:


> It is still two different conditions. Maybe you should have your eyes checked? It appears you didn’t read what Alchemedia wrote, so I’ll post again:
> 
> Tinnitus can be temporary or persistent, mild or severe, gradual or instant.
> *Hearing loss due to damaged stereocilia is permanent.*
> ...


It appears you didn't read what Alchemedia wrote, so I'll post again:

_Hearing loss due to fluid or infection as in your case is something else altogether. That's not what I or Gregory "dude from Kush" Scott was referring to._


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## Alchemedia (Jul 25, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> It appears you didn't read what Alchemedia wrote, so I'll post again:
> 
> _Hearing loss due to fluid or infection as in your case is something else altogether. That's not what I or Gregory "dude from Kush" Scott was referring to._


Why do you insist on taking what I wrote out of context? Same with Gregory's video, in which he clearly explains how noise exposure damaged his hearing at a young age.


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## hoxclab (Jul 25, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Why do you insist on taking what I wrote out of context? Same with Gregory's video, in which he clearly explains how noise exposure damaged his hearing at a young age.


I'm not.

You stated:
I've been to numerous specialists and done extensive research. Hearing loss due to fluid or infection as in your case is something else altogether. That's not what I or Gregory "dude from Kush" Scott was referring to.

In fact that is what he was referring to:


Are you having a hard time processing this? It wasn't the only thing but it was a thing he did refer to.


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## Martin S (Jul 25, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> It wasn't the only thing but it was a thing he did refer to.


YES! - That’s what we’re trying to tell you, Ferfooksake !! It’s 2 different conditions, both can lead to Tinnitus. In the case of infections etc. a patient may have success with various treatments (as in your case). In the case where your hearing is damaged by noise and your hair cells in the ear are damaged, the Tinnitus will be permanent and CAN NOT BE REPAIRED with current technology or medicine. This is a fact; ask any Doctor who specializes in this.

If you still don’t get, I strongly suggest you take this thread from the top.


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## hoxclab (Jul 25, 2021)

Martin S said:


> YES! - That’s what we’re trying to tell you, Ferfooksake !! It’s 2 different conditions, both can lead to Tinnitus. In the case of infections etc. a patient may have success with various treatments. In the case where your hearing is damaged by noise and your hair cells are damaged, the Tinnitus will be permanent and CAN NOT BE REPAIRED with current technology or medicine. This is a fact; ask any Doctor who specializes in this.
> 
> If you still don’t get, I strongly suggest you take this thread from the top.


Is this what I was referencing in the beginning of my post? No. I suggest you take it from the top.


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## Alchemedia (Jul 25, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> I'm not.
> 
> You stated:
> I've been to numerous specialists and done extensive research. Hearing loss due to fluid or infection as in your case is something else altogether. That's not what I or Gregory "dude from Kush" Scott was referring to.
> ...



I'm afraid I'm unable to further help you in this matter so I'm referring you to a specialist.


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## Martin S (Jul 25, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> Is this what I was referencing in the beginning of my post? No. I suggest you take it from the top.


Jaysus, Mary ‘n’ F***in’ Joseph…My front door is brighter than you. I’m out.


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## Alchemedia (Jul 25, 2021)

NekujaK said:


> I have some of the same hearing impairments that Gregory Scott has (asymmetrical hearing, tinnitus, hi frequency loss) so I found it interesting that my mixes generally fit the same exact sonic profile that he described for his mixes when stacked up against iZotope's Tonal Balance Control. Fascinating.
> 
> I loved Gregory's tip of applying a LPF and then selectiviely boosting upper frequencies (that I can no longer hear) to gain control of the top end. That's a brilliant approach I'm going to start using right away.
> 
> ...


I can relate. Chris Lord-Alge insists that if you can't have a normal conversation while mixing the volume is too loud.


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## CATDAD (Jul 25, 2021)

I think @Alchemedia and @hoxclab you are both just saying/believe the exact same things so you should probably forget about it. 

It's like muscle tendons. A strain could recover in a matter of weeks or months. A partial tear, a matter of years. A fully separated tear can never recover. If you take good care in recovery it will be much faster than if you continue to pepper them with stress. If you don't, it could lead to further damage.

I think it can be a slippery slope, because even temporary hearing loss may trick you in to turning everything up to overpower it without realizing it's happening. Then additional damage causes you to just keep going down that road til suddenly you find yourself just not being able to compensate anymore because of greater loss.

I like to set "upper limit" reference points on my interface amp controls, one for mastered tracks/consumption, and one higher one for mixing. Check the dials once in awhile, if they're too far out of the expected top-end I'll turn em down and take a break. This visual helps separate me from the auditory bias of getting used to the new, higher level over time. 

I loved this video because it had a PSA that cannot be overstated enough, but with a hopeful attitude for those that have already experienced permanent damage. Greg's comment about not being able to hear a field of sound was frankly terrifying to imagine, but he went on to talk about how he still has a sense of depth that he focuses on.


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## hoxclab (Jul 25, 2021)

While we are on the topic. Does it make sense to have a larger speaker at a quieter volume than a smaller speaker at a louder volume in terms of ear health? What everyone's take on this?


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## MartinH. (Jul 26, 2021)

hoxclab said:


> While we are on the topic. Does it make sense to have a larger speaker at a quieter volume than a smaller speaker at a louder volume in terms of ear health? What everyone's take on this?


I could be worng, but I believe only the volume matters for the hearing damage. The different speaker sizes likely only give you a different frequency response. So you might want to get the one that has a good enough response to not make you want to turn up the volume to hear certain details better. 
A while ago I saw this video on "the quiet mixing strategy", where he mentions fletcher munson curves: 




That had me question whether I really should be striving to get a "flat" headphone, or if it wouldn't hurt to get one that is hyped a little in bass and hights to compensate for the low volumes I was planning to use them at. 


I checked on amazon how expensive loudness measuring devices are and the cheapest ones start at around 20 to 30$. I was considering getting one but then I thought they probably wouldn't be able to give an accurate reading on a headphone, since they are designed to measure ambient noise. 


My understanding is that headphones are potentially less damaging to hearing, IF they isolate well against outside noise, so that you can hear enough at lower volume. The main problem with listening to music on for example non-isolating earbuds in a city, is that they block no outside noise and you'd have to turn up the volume crazy high to "mainly hear music". On the other hand decent isolating in-ear headphones isolate well enough to let you mainly hear music at a much much lower volume. If they isolate super well against outside noise, in a busy city you might be able to listen at such a low volume, that your ears are overall getting less hammered with loudness than they would without wearing any headphones, from the raw traffic noise alone. On occasion I've worn such headphones outside, even without listening to music, just to turn down the noise and people a little.

That's why I'm still hoping for @Alchemedia to further explain this statement:


> It's virtually impossible to use headphone at volumes low enough not to cause hearing damage over time.


because I can not reconcile it yet with what I believe to understand about hearing damage and headphones. But if I'm mistaken I sure would like to learn!


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## Alchemedia (Jul 26, 2021)

@MartinH. Sound waves entering a sealed ear canal created by wearing headphones or earpods create an oscillating pressure chamber inside the eardrum that can produce a dramatic boost in sound pressure levels triggering an acoustic reflex in the ear which dampens the transfer of sound energy from the eardrum to the cochlea by as much as 50dBs (approx volume of a normal conversation). The protective acoustic reflex does not stop the pressure oscillations in the eardrum, but instead makes loud volumes seem lower than they actually are prompting the listener to increase volume to compensate. The tiny muscles involved in the acoustic reflex are reactivated and the repeated engagement and disengagement of those muscles leads to the pain and discomfort known as "listener fatigue" which can cause tinnitus and hearing loss.


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## el-bo (Jul 26, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> @MartinH. Sound waves entering a sealed ear canal created by wearing headphones or earpods create an oscillating pressure chamber inside the eardrum that can produce a dramatic boost in sound pressure levels triggering an acoustic reflex in the ear which dampens the transfer of sound energy from the eardrum to the cochlea by as much as 50dBs (approx volume of a normal conversation). The protective acoustic reflex does not stop the pressure oscillations in the eardrum, but instead makes loud volumes seem lower than they actually are prompting the listener to increase volume to compensate. The tiny muscles involved in the acoustic reflex are reactivated and the repeated engagement and disengagement of those muscles leads to the pain and discomfort known as "listener fatigue" which can cause tinnitus and hearing loss.


What, in your opinion, might be a way of determining a safe volume for headphone/iem usage?


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## MartinH. (Jul 26, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> @MartinH. Sound waves entering a sealed ear canal created by wearing headphones or earpods create an oscillating pressure chamber inside the eardrum that can produce a dramatic boost in sound pressure levels triggering an acoustic reflex in the ear which dampens the transfer of sound energy from the eardrum to the cochlea by as much as 50dBs (approx volume of a normal conversation). The protective acoustic reflex does not stop the pressure oscillations in the eardrum, but instead makes loud volumes seem lower than they actually are prompting the listener to increase volume to compensate. The tiny muscles involved in the acoustic reflex are reactivated and the repeated engagement and disengagement of those muscles leads to the pain and discomfort known as "listener fatigue" which can cause tinnitus and hearing loss.



Thank you very much! I found an article that gives the same explanation as you do, but it sounds like they are only talking about earbuds, not over ear headphones: 








Earbud 'Listener Fatigue' Solved


Musicians and audio engineers have developed a theory for why listener fatigue happens when using in-ear headphones or earbuds.




www.livescience.com




Do you have a source that talks about this in regards to over ear headphones too? 

To me it sounds like the damage still has mainly to do with volume, and the described phenomenon leads to people using unsafe volumes. However I wonder how responsive the phenomenon is. If we think of it as a compressor, I would expect the attack and release times to be really slow. I know the feeling of coming from a loud environment into a quiet environment and feeling like everthing is "unusually quiet" because the ears are still in "compression mode" and haven't recovered yet. Normally that's probably a sign of having experienced very unsafe levels of noise, so I haven't experienced this in a long while. 



el-bo said:


> What, in your opinion, might be a way of determining a safe volume for headphone/iem usage?


If my assumptions are correct I would think you can set your speaker/monitor volume to be on par with a normal conversation, and then set your headphone volume so that you don't hear a difference in volume when you put them on or take them off. But that would only work if this compression effect of the ear is slow to react. And of course if you start to feel like the volume gets quieter over time if for some reason headphones trigger this compression reflex easier than monitors, you may not adjust the volume of the headphones and have to just deal with things sounding quieter. Does that make sense?


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## el-bo (Jul 26, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> If my assumptions are correct I would think you can set your speaker/monitor volume to be on par with a normal conversation, and then set your headphone volume so that you don't hear a difference in volume when you put them on or take them off. But that would only work if this compression effect of the ear is slow to react. And of course if you start to feel like the volume gets quieter over time if for some reason headphones trigger this compression reflex easier than monitors, you may not adjust the volume of the headphones and have to just deal with things sounding quieter. Does that make sense?


Thanks!

But perhaps I'm missing something. I thought the idea was that a conversation, at distance, and within an open-air environment will not be as potentially detrimental as that same conversation happening right next to the ear-drum.

I'm thinking that maybe there'd be a way of incorporating a user-selectable hard-limit within our DAW, to be output to the cans. Perhaps it could be a feature added to any of the current headphone frequency-curve flatteners (DSoniq, Morphit etc.).


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## RogiervG (Jul 26, 2021)

don't expose yourself to loud sound in a long run. (as long as it's audible what you need, it loud enough, no need to gain db's)

I have my sound always quite low, like normal. (not sure how many db's, but it's far from high volume/loud)

Yes, i have a hearing issue too, or so i think (and my age plays in a bit, in terms of frequencies i can hear): i hear stereo, but sometimes i think one side is louder than the other, while it isn't the case by metering and also by the amp settings on the speakers: same position on both. I also have issues with separating sound sources, meaning e.g. when in a conversation and there is background music, i can't easily pickup which is which (i see lips moving, i hea sound coming from the mouth, but cannot understand what is being said: need to really really focus on it before i can understand. It's like the music and voice get tangled up somehow. Might be a hearing issue, or somehting entirely different: brain issue perhaps?)
Might have damaged one ear a bit because of wrong sound checking on stage... (someone did high volume on a speaker, when i was in front of it. And stage speakers go very very loud)


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## MartinH. (Jul 26, 2021)

el-bo said:


> But perhaps I'm missing something. I thought the idea was that a conversation, at distance, and within an open-air environment will not be as potentially detrimental as that same conversation happening right next to the ear-drum.


Well, that's definitely true because someone talking right next to your ear would be very loud, but I think that's not what you mean. The way I understand it, the headphones can make your ears "turn down" the subjective volume of everything, which people then compensate with more volume, and _then _the volume is harmful over the headphones and people don't realize it's actually louder. 

However I do not believe that this effect is triggered to the same extend with all volumes and all types of headphones. I haven't seen any evidence yet that headphones are inherently bad, even if the levels are kept in check, but I'm open to being misinformed about this. It would be valuable information for sure.

I've had 2 encounters with way too much noise in my youth, each of which gave me permanent tinitus in one ear. But in the almost 20 years since then, my tinnitus didn't get worse at all, because I've been really careful about the noise levels that I expose myself to. Not a single concert without earplugs, it's the only way. For what it's worth, I've used in-ear headphones quite frequently, just not at high volumes. 




el-bo said:


> I'm thinking that maybe there'd be a way of incorporating a user-selectable hard-limit within our DAW, to be output to the cans. Perhaps it could be a feature added to any of the current headphone frequency-curve flatteners (DSoniq, Morphit etc.).


In reaper you can just put a limiter inside the monitoring fx chain. My audio interface has a separate dial for headphone volume. But each headphone has a different output volume at the same input volume, so it's not a set-and-forget thing if you switch headphones often like I likely will.


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## MartinH. (Jul 26, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> (i see lips moving, but i sounds, but cannot understand what is being said: need to really really focus. It's like the music and voice get tangled up somehow)


Try if listening with the other ear works better, afaik for neurological reasons it's easier to understand voices with one ear compared to the other. I can't remember which one is better though and whether that was a universal truth or not.


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## RogiervG (Jul 26, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Try if listening with the other ear works better, afaik for neurological reasons it's easier to understand voices with one ear compared to the other. I can't remember which one is better though and whether that was a universal truth or not.


I already did that, but no difference unfortunately. Both ears, i have a hard time following conversation, while other sounds sources on the same db's are present. That's why i am i bit in doubt if this has to do with hearing or not.


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## el-bo (Jul 26, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Well, that's definitely true because someone talking right next to your ear would be very loud, but I think that's not what you mean. The way I understand it, the headphones can make your ears "turn down" the subjective volume of everything, which people then compensate with more volume, and _then _the volume is harmful over the headphones and people don't realize it's actually louder.
> 
> However I do not believe that this effect is triggered to the same extend with all volumes and all types of headphones. I haven't seen any evidence yet that headphones are inherently bad, even if the levels are kept in check, but I'm open to being misinformed about this. It would be valuable information for sure.
> 
> I've had 2 encounters with way too much noise in my youth, each of which gave me permanent tinitus in one ear. But in the almost 20 years since then, my tinnitus didn't get worse at all, because I've been really careful about the noise levels that I expose myself to. Not a single concert without earplugs, it's the only way. For what it's worth, I've used in-ear headphones quite frequently, just not at high volumes.



Thanks!

Maybe I misunderstood.

I've actually done my best recently to avoid loud volumes. I lost onboard audio to my computer on the last run of fixes, and have yet to locate the power adaptor to my audio interface. As such, i 've been using headphones for everything. I also game with iem and walk (often for hours at a time) with iem. I never really go loud, but I'm making more of an effort to go as low as possible.

So, yeah...would be good to get a better understanding



MartinH. said:


> In reaper you can just put a limiter inside the monitoring fx chain. My audio interface has a separate dial for headphone volume. But each headphone has a different output volume at the same input volume, so it's not a set-and-forget thing if you switch headphones often like I likely will.


So really, we just need to know the decibels to set the limiter to


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## MartinH. (Jul 26, 2021)

el-bo said:


> So really, we just need to know the decibels to set the limiter to


We'll likely never find out though, because we'd need to measure the output at the headphone to capture all variables in the chain. And even then, the "safe levels" are only guidelines. I don't think they intentionally gave enough people hearing damage in unethical studies to be _sure _what levels are "safe for all" vs "safe for most" people. I bet there are big differences from person to person what is harmful and what isn't. The first event that gave me tinnitus (listening in on band practice of some friends) from being there _once _didn't give any of the others who were there regularly permanent tinnitus. For them the ringing always stopped after a while, so no one thought to warn me about needing ear protection, and I simply had no clue how loud a drumkit and guitar amps are because I hadn't experienced anything like that before. So I'm not sure how to sensibly measure it, other than "earballing" it by using a fairly consistent reference sound like the human speaking voice as the measuring guideline.


@RogiervG: I have similar problems and I'm very sure it's not a hearing issue in my case. I just seem to have a slightly harder time understanding voices than others do. Or I'm just more willing to admit when I didn't understand something instead of just nodding along.


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## hoxclab (Jul 26, 2021)

@MartinH. Thanks for the video. I'm going to purchase Slick EQ M based off that awesome suggestion by Dan. And with all this talk I am going to schedule a hearing test.


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## el-bo (Jul 26, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> We'll likely never find out though, because we'd need to measure the output at the headphone to capture all variables in the chain. And even then, the "safe levels" are only guidelines. I don't think they intentionally gave enough people hearing damage in unethical studies to be _sure _what levels are "safe for all" vs "safe for most" people. I bet there are big differences from person to person what is harmful and what isn't. The first event that gave me tinnitus (listening in on band practice of some friends) from being there _once _didn't give any of the others who were there regularly permanent tinnitus. For them the ringing always stopped after a while, so no one thought to warn me about needing ear protection, and I simply had no clue how loud a drumkit and guitar amps are because I hadn't experienced anything like that before. So I'm not sure how to sensibly measure it, other than "earballing" it by using a fairly consistent reference sound like the human speaking voice as the measuring guideline.


I dunno, man. You always seems to be spoiling my fun, these days


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## MartinH. (Jul 26, 2021)

el-bo said:


> I dunno, man. You always seems to be spoiling my fun, these days


Sorry, it's what I do best .

What else did I spoil? I don't remember


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## CATDAD (Jul 26, 2021)

RogiervG said:


> I already did that, but no difference unfortunately. Both ears, i have a hard time following conversation, while other sounds sources on the same db's are present. That's why i am i bit in doubt if this has to do with hearing or not.


I have good hearing and can separate sounds/arrangements in songs better than the average (non-music) person, but often mishear people or randomly lose parts of what they're saying. I'm also not very good at remembering lyrics until I've heard a song a whole of times, though I remember the melody and phrasing just fine.

For me it's not an issue of hearing, but rather an issue of focus. When there are other sounds present I will often shift focus to them during a conversation and not realize it until I've already missed some words.

Speech recognition definitely goes beyond hearing, it's like when you read a whole paragraph in a book then later realize you had no idea what you just read even though you know you saw all the words.


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## el-bo (Jul 26, 2021)

MartinH. said:


> Sorry, it's what I do best .
> 
> What else did I spoil? I don't remember


I don't remember, either. But it's bound to have happened, right?


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## Markrs (Jul 31, 2021)

KT Tunstall on her show-halting hearing loss​After KT Tunstall postponed her touring plans over concerns she could become completely deaf, she's told the BBC about how she's struggled with hearing loss throughout her career.
She spoke to Colin Paterson about what she's been going through – and why she doesn't feel like she's going through it alone.


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## thebeesknees22 (Jul 31, 2021)

Ooof... That's rough. :(


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## timprebble (Jul 31, 2021)

I fear for re-recording mixers, who spend long periods of time (10+ hour days) exposed to loud SPLs on the dub stage. Imagine how fast your ears get tired (& then damaged) mixing battle scenes or transforminators etc... #regretsy

I've had situations where I noticed a whine behind a line of dialog which the mixer couldn't hear.
One technique that helped him was playing the sound at half speed so he could find the frequency and then he simply doubled that freq to notch it out for real speed playback. Maybe not so useful to play your music at half speed, but it will reveal the high frequencies if you have major hi freq loss.
Also a good reason to have an assistant/trainee with young ears!

Some suggestions for mixing loud film scenes in this thread:








Forbidden subject - hearing damage - Gearspace.com


I found this thread in the 'Moan Zone' http://www.gearslutz.com/board/moan-...cant-hear.html This a very pertinent topic for feature mixers a



gearspace.com


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## Alchemedia (Jul 31, 2021)

Markrs said:


> KT Tunstall on her show-halting hearing loss​


Thx for posting this Markrs. Unrelenting tinnitus is maddening enough, but I have also experienced that temporary hearing loss she mentioned. It only lasts for a very short time, a minute or so, but is so disconcerting it feels like an eternity.


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## Wally Garten (Aug 2, 2021)

This is a good thread -- thanks to @Alchemedia and @robgb and others for confronting this.

I think headphones, specifically, are more dangerous than they seem. Even though I've known for years about the Pete Townshend thing, I've probably damaged my ears a bit. When I was in the military, I would do twelve-hour shifts on headphones.  And I've always composed and mixed mostly on headphones, because I've rarely had a good space of my own where endless monitor play wouldn't disturb people.

I now definitely have some high-end hearing loss and very mild tinnitus. :-( Some of that is probably age-related, and I have always tried to keep my volumes low and take frequent breaks. Still, I can't believe it hasn't taken its toll. One of my big goals for this year is to try to set up an area where I can work more with monitors and less with headphones.


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## artomatic (Aug 2, 2021)

What I'm _*hearing*_ on the video's intro music is Barry White's "I'm Gonna Love You Just A Little Bit More Baby"... 

When giggin' back in high school, my guitar amp was always on my left side during rehearsals and concerts.
Years later, I noticed that my left ear was not hearing the high frequencies that my right ear was hearing. 
A visit to an audiologist confirmed that I have hearing loss from 6k on. 
When mixing, I temporary boost this area on my left channel.
What other methods (plugins, etc.) would you recommend in my case?


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## chimuelo (Aug 2, 2021)

artomatic said:


> What I'm _*hearing*_ on the video's intro music is Barry White's "I'm Gonna Love You Just A Little Bit More Baby"...
> 
> When giggin' back in high school, my guitar amp was always on my left side during rehearsals and concerts.
> Years later, I noticed that my left ear was not hearing the high frequencies that my right ear was hearing.
> ...


I’ve always used db killers for protection from loud stage amps.
In ‘95 I started using Custom silicon plugs with 4 way drivers, made for my ears, not all size fits one.

I’m using 12 way drivers now, and again custom made silicon.
My hearing was protected the day I started using them 26 years ago.

They’re mastering quality IEMs so they’re not cheap, but again made for my ears. I recently bought some HD headphones for my kid because also has the JHAudio Layla IEMs, but wanted the headset gaming combo.

He complained on his headphone out the volume was double to get the comfort of Custom silicon.

This is why I feel lucky I jumped all in at NAMM ’95 and got on the train.
Besides Herbie Hancock demoed the very first show and had EA Wedges to show for comparison.

The Layla’s aren’t cheap, but you get one set of ears.
Plus being wireless is where it’s at. Being handcuffed with curly Q cables, or your head being blown off by SPLs isn’t my idea of enjoying music.

Google Jerry Harvey. He’s even had keynote presentations at Google.
He’s even helped deaf people hear music for the first time ever.
He’ has the patents too. One of them passed in 6 months which shows you how good it is. Usually a couple years for most patents.


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## CeDur (Aug 3, 2021)

I'm wondering if using closed-back headphones (or some noise-cancelling ones) is not actually safer than speakers? Since you're isolated from surrounding noise, you can set a gain much lower making it safer for the hearing.


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## Alchemedia (Aug 25, 2021)

If it's bad for your ears, it could very well be bad for your brain. In a study of 639 adults ages 36 to 90, *mild hearing loss was associated with a nearly twofold likelihood of dementia.*

As a rule, if someone else can hear sound from your earbuds, they're too loud, says Nicholas Reed, assistant professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. He also recommends carrying a pair of foam earplugs with you and using them at concerts or sporting events, and removing yourself from loud environments when possible. “If you are standing within 3 feet of someone and you can't hear them, the world around you is too loud,” he says.
--Nicole Pajer, AARP, August 6, 2021


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Aug 27, 2021)

Tinnitus is most likely the brain's neural response to the absence of physiological excitatory signals coming from the ears because of (partial) deafness i.e. as said before, the destruction of stereocilia (microcilia) inside the ear(s) because of long-term or loud exposure to sound. They start to mineralize and become stiff so cannot vibrate anymore in response to certain bands of frequencies.

So tinnitus is in fact similar to phantom limbs or phantom pain experienced by amputees where the brain creates an artificial response to a non-existant input signal. See for ex. neuroscientist Ramachandran's book "Phantoms in the Brain". His "mirror solution" in that case is as famous as it is surprising! 

Tinnitus being neurological ("in your head") it can come and go, usually with level of stress (cortisol), meds, drugs & alcohol, certain foods, rest, etc. Anything that can affect your brain can also affect your tinnitus but the source of it is probably hearing loss, even partial or temporary (like a clogged inner ear) like it happened to my husband for a few weeks recently, and sure enough he developped temporary tinnitus.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Aug 27, 2021)

In response to my own post just above, I just found this article from Stanford U.:








Tinnitus: the ear’s version of phantom limb?


A treatment for tinnitus has similarities to treatments for phantom limb pain, and may reveal a similar cause in the brain



scopeblog.stanford.edu




Wow! Exactly! Even the mirror trick! 

And then _many_ more articles... When it rains it pours! Or rather: good things come in... many!


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