# Slate Verbsuite versus EW Spaces II



## jaketanner (Sep 10, 2018)

Hi,

I was looking to change subscription plans. The only reason I am keeping EWCC for now, is because of the SpacesII reverb that I have been using on some mixes...I don't really use the libraries as much as I thought I would. But I also have some Slate plugins that I own, and I could probably get more use out of the Slate sub than EWCC. 

So the question is, how good will the Verbsuite reverb be, compared to the SpacesII? Is it a step up, a lateral move, or a step down?

Thanks!!


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 14, 2018)

I would say it's a lateral move, as Verbsuite Classics are impulses from famous hardware units, and Spaces are... well, spaces


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## jaketanner (Sep 15, 2018)

whitewasteland said:


> I would say it's a lateral move, as Verbsuite Classics are impulses from famous hardware units, and Spaces are... well, spaces



Fo you have vetbsuite and Spaces? For comparison that it. I’ve tried both, just don’t remember how good verbsuite is. But I’m gonna make the subscription change. I’m on a month to month with EW, so nothing lost if I cancel and then really need it again.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 16, 2018)

I have Verbsuite but not Spaces. Both are convolution reverbs focusing on different things. For general non-orchestral mixing, Verbsuite would probably be a better option with all its different units & colors. For everything orchestral where realism is the key, I would probably go for Spaces first.


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## jaketanner (Sep 16, 2018)

whitewasteland said:


> I have Verbsuite but not Spaces. Both are convolution reverbs focusing on different things. For general non-orchestral mixing, Verbsuite would probably be a better option with all its different units & colors. For everything orchestral where realism is the key, I would probably go for Spaces first.



I have spaces. Was hoping to change subs. Does verbsuite have the TC6000 with the warm hall preset?


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## bryla (Sep 16, 2018)

Here are all the Halls from 6000


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## bryla (Sep 16, 2018)

For everything orchestral I've done there has always been an algorithmic reverb like the Lexicon on the master bus. That is real orchestral recordings. If your sample libraries are recorded in Decca setting I don't see why you should religiously stick to impulses of halls where orchestras might have played when an impulse of a Bricasti or the Bricasti itself will do a great job.


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## Emmanuel Rousseau (Sep 16, 2018)

Good point @bryla , the topic was about convolutions reverb, but I too prefer using an algo (2C Audio Breeze 2 these days).


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## jaketanner (Sep 16, 2018)

bryla said:


> Here are all the Halls from 6000



Thank you for posting. I appreciate it.


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## jaketanner (Sep 16, 2018)

bryla said:


> For everything orchestral I've done there has always been an algorithmic reverb like the Lexicon on the master bus. That is real orchestral recordings. If your sample libraries are recorded in Decca setting I don't see why you should religiously stick to impulses of halls where orchestras might have played when an impulse of a Bricasti or the Bricasti itself will do a great job.



Very true.


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## labornvain (Sep 16, 2018)

I would consider Verbsuite definitely a step down. Convolution reverbs are only as good as the impulse responses you have available for them. And Verbsuite definitely has some nice impulses. But as has been pointed out, they are all impulses of hardware gear. Not that that is bad. I like Hardware reverbs, especially the Bricasti M7, which you can download for free from Liquidsonics.

But the real problem, for me anyway, with the verbsuite plugin is it's horrible user interface. To audition an impulse you have to click on a drop-down window navigate down to another drop down window and yet another and maybe even another and then select one of the impulses. And you have to do this every single time.

It's unthinkable. Whereas with Spaces, you can just scroll through them with the click of a button.

Being able to scroll through the different impulses is important to me. I have verbsuite impulses I've never even heard before because it's so tedious to try to load them up. Scrolling through presets is fun and essential to making good choices about which reverb you think you might want.


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## bryla (Sep 16, 2018)

There are definitely a lot of great impulses in Verbsuite but the drawback for the entire plug-in is that I can't scale the decay rate based on a crossover. For example I can't divide the frequency spectrum at 200Hz and have the decay for anything below that point scale by a factor of 0.8. This I find to be more pleasing than EQ'ing the reverb.

Don't know if you can do that in Spaces but you can in IK CSR and FF Pro-R let's you have a separate decay curve in addition to an EQ.


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## jaketanner (Sep 16, 2018)

bryla said:


> There are definitely a lot of great impulses in Verbsuite but the drawback for the entire plug-in is that I can't scale the decay rate based on a crossover. For example I can't divide the frequency spectrum at 200Hz and have the decay for anything below that point scale by a factor of 0.8. This I find to be more pleasing than EQ'ing the reverb.
> 
> Don't know if you can do that in Spaces but you can in IK CSR and FF Pro-R let's you have a separate decay curve in addition to an EQ.



I know what you mean. In Avid Space, (former TL Space), you can scale the decay for low, mid, and high frequencies.


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## jaketanner (Sep 16, 2018)

labornvain said:


> I would consider Verbsuite definitely a step down. Convolution reverbs are only as good as the impulse responses you have available for them. And Verbsuite definitely has some nice impulses. But as has been pointed out, they are all impulses of hardware gear. Not that that is bad. I like Hardware reverbs, especially the Bricasti M7, which you can download for free from Liquidsonics.
> 
> But the real problem, for me anyway, with the verbsuite plugin is it's horrible user interface. To audition an impulse you have to click on a drop-down window navigate down to another drop down window and yet another and maybe even another and then select one of the impulses. And you have to do this every single time.
> 
> ...



Impulse of a Bricasti or TC 6000 is not so bad...they are used widely in scoring. I meant in straight up sound wise...is the Verbsuite on par with say the Lexicon PCM plugins? I am not looking for a step down for sure, but I can't see spending $20 a month just for a reverb unit, when I can spend $15, and get other plugins that I may use..truthfully, I don't "need" more EQs...but they would complement my other Slate plugins...

I think I can get over the interface...not too worried about it. But thinking more about it, I was signed up for the older Slate $25 monthly, where you can start and stop at will...I may start it up for a month to see if the Verbsuite compares, while I have both...Then pick one to keep.


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## labornvain (Sep 17, 2018)

jaketanner said:


> Impulse of a Bricasti or TC 6000 is not so bad...they are used widely in scoring. I meant in straight up sound wise...is the Verbsuite on par with say the Lexicon PCM plugins? I am not looking for a step down for sure, but I can't see spending $20 a month just for a reverb unit, when I can spend $15, and get other plugins that I may use..truthfully, I don't "need" more EQs...but they would complement my other Slate plugins...
> 
> I think I can get over the interface...not too worried about it. But thinking more about it, I was signed up for the older Slate $25 monthly, where you can start and stop at will...I may start it up for a month to see if the Verbsuite compares, while I have both...Then pick one to keep.



Right. I was comparing verbsuite and spaces in isolation. In the broader context of package deals and money considerations, and depending on which slate plugins you already have, the Slate deal is definitely the way to go. I'm wondering if you already own virtual mix rack. Because that's the one must-have plugin from Slate.

But to be clear, annoyances with scrolling through impulses aside, Verbsuite sounds great. I've done a comparison loading the same impulses into various convolution plugins. And verbsuite is the only one that sounds as good as Altiverb. Don't ask me how convolution plugins can differ so much in sound quality when they're using the same impulses, but they do. Both Altiverb and Verbsuite sound better.


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## jaketanner (Sep 17, 2018)

labornvain said:


> Right. I was comparing verbsuite and spaces in isolation. In the broader context of package deals and money considerations, and depending on which slate plugins you already have, the Slate deal is definitely the way to go. I'm wondering if you already own virtual mix rack. Because that's the one must-have plugin from Slate.
> 
> But to be clear, annoyances with scrolling through impulses aside, Verbsuite sounds great. I've done a comparison loading the same impulses into various convolution plugins. And verbsuite is the only one that sounds as good as Altiverb. Don't ask me how convolution plugins can differ so much in sound quality when they're using the same impulses, but they do. Both Altiverb and Verbsuite sound better.



Oh for sure they can sound different. Example is the Waves IR plugin versus the Avid Space plugin...both use the same Its I think, but the sound engine on the Avid Space is far better I think. Waves is okay, but there is definitely a difference, and has nothing to do with the impulses, it's the engine that plays them that makes the difference.

And thanks for the feedback about Verbsuite. I have from Slate, VTM, VCC, VBC, and possibly one more...I have some other killer EQ's and compressors, that it's not an absolute that I have Slate's Everything bundle, but...I wouldn't mind getting the extras like the Distressor plugin and also the delay and now the API emulation...even though it's hard to beat the Acustica Audio PINK 2 plugin I have...that thing is amazing. But for CPU convenience...Slate is definitely better.


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## labornvain (Sep 17, 2018)

jaketanner said:


> Oh for sure they can sound different. Example is the Waves IR plugin versus the Avid Space plugin...both use the same Its I think, but the sound engine on the Avid Space is far better I think. Waves is okay, but there is definitely a difference, and has nothing to do with the impulses, it's the engine that plays them that makes the difference.
> 
> And thanks for the feedback about Verbsuite. I have from Slate, VTM, VCC, VBC, and possibly one more...I have some other killer EQ's and compressors, that it's not an absolute that I have Slate's Everything bundle, but...I wouldn't mind getting the extras like the Distressor plugin and also the delay and now the API emulation...even though it's hard to beat the Acustica Audio PINK 2 plugin I have...that thing is amazing. But for CPU convenience...Slate is definitely better.



Yeah, the waves IR uses like hybrid technology so I expect it to sound different. My big surprise was the liquid Sonic's reverberate which is just a straight convolution player. Compared to the Slate or Altiverb plugs, it and if you others I tried didn't sound very good. Which is especially weird considering some of the impulses I used for my comparison were made by liquidsonics and yet the exact same impulses in Reverberate 2 and Verbsuite sounded dramatically different.

On the Slate bundle, I bought my slate plugins before that deal was available unfortunately. I just looked at it again and they've added lots of new plugins lately. Looks like a lot of fun. I had forgotten about the virtual tape machines. I use that on almost every track. And the Eiosis Deesser is a little plugin miracle.


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## jaketanner (Sep 17, 2018)

labornvain said:


> Yeah, the waves IR uses like hybrid technology so I expect it to sound different. My big surprise was the liquid Sonic's reverberate which is just a straight convolution player. Compared to the Slate or Altiverb plugs, it and if you others I tried didn't sound very good. Which is especially weird considering some of the impulses I used for my comparison were made by liquidsonics and yet the exact same impulses in Reverberate 2 and Verbsuite sounded dramatically different.
> 
> On the Slate bundle, I bought my slate plugins before that deal was available unfortunately. I just looked at it again and they've added lots of new plugins lately. Looks like a lot of fun. I had forgotten about the virtual tape machines. I use that on almost every track. And the Eiosis Deesser is a little plugin miracle.



The Reverberate and Verbsuite both use Fusion IRs. They apparently are like "living" impulses and are not stagnant...so if you use them in any other player, they will not sound right. But Reverberate 2 seems inexpensive compared to the price of Verbsuite alone...The Seventh Heaven plugins seem to be their flagship...but I think the IRs are also available for the Verbsuite. I'm gonna give it a go I think, maybe one week before my EW sub expires so I can compare the two. 

Thanks for the insights and experiences.


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## jaketanner (Sep 17, 2018)

@labornvain ...as a side note, I saw an ad for Relabs reverb suite. Now..the LX480 was originally part of the Slate bundle, and technically, I am grandfathered in because I was part of the original subscription for $24.99 a month/start and stop. BUT...as luck would have it, Relab is now offering their own monthly for $7.99 that includes the 480 AND...a full emulation of the TC6000 complete. Damn, I think that is the way to go..LOL


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## jcrosby (Sep 18, 2018)

jaketanner said:


> The Reverberate and Verbsuite both use Fusion IRs. They apparently are like "living" impulses and are not stagnant...so if you use them in any other player, they will not sound right. But Reverberate 2 seems inexpensive compared to the price of Verbsuite alone...The Seventh Heaven plugins seem to be their flagship...but I think the IRs are also available for the Verbsuite. I'm gonna give it a go I think, maybe one week before my EW sub expires so I can compare the two.
> 
> Thanks for the insights and experiences.


This is a little bit of hocus pocus IMO... Impulses are stagnant, they obvioulsy aren't _alive _as they like to claim they are... Pretty sure this is techno-babble for additional modulation, maybe some subtle changes on the playback speed... (Like the 'fake neighbor' trick you see in some sample libraries.) Other than that there's really not much else an IR can do that isn't just playing back a recording.

Sure, it is possible they have something else clever going on, but I'd be pretty surprised as someone else would have reproduced and released a competitive, if not better version of it by now...


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## jaketanner (Sep 18, 2018)

jcrosby said:


> This is a little bit of hocus pocus IMO... Impulses are stagnant, they obvioulsy aren't _alive _as they like to claim they are... Pretty sure this is techno-babble for additional modulation, maybe some subtle changes on the playback speed... (Like the 'fake neighbor' trick you see in some sample libraries.) Other than that there's really not much else an IR can do that isn't just playing back a recording.
> 
> Sure, it is possible they have something else clever going on, but I'd be pretty surprised as someone else would have reproduced and released a competitive, if not better version of it by now...



They call it Fusion IR. Modulated convolution. Probably a gimmick, but I think they are saying that in an analog hardware, the IRs vary I guess. Not sure. But either way, I think I’m going to get the Relab subscription for their reverb suite.


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