# BBO goes brass!



## Ben (Jun 3, 2020)

Hey everyone! After so many requests it's finally here - I'm really glad to finally announce the next _four _BBO libraries:

BBO: Hercules - Low Brass (oh boy, I'm in love with the contrabass tuba...)
BBO: Izar - Low Brass Clusters
BBO: Jupiter - 6 Horns
BBO: Kopernikus - 4 Trumpets
I can't describe how much fun I had in the last few days playing around with this massive sounds (probably scaring my entire neighborhood)!

Hercules features 4 bass trombones, a bass tuba and optional a contrabass tuba played as ensemble. As always with multiple mics + additional close mics. Up to five velocity layers, from emotional pianissimo up to brassy and striking fortississimo, and real legato recordings, glissandos, swells, flutter tonguing, trills and more! (intro-price: € 65, reg € 95)

Izar consists of the same ensemble as Hercules, but played as clusters. All the same articulations with the exception of legatos. (intro-price: € 55, reg € 85)

Jupiter - 6 horns, the perfect number of horns for our Synchron Stage Vienna, crispy, powerful, from pianissimo up to fortissimo.
"The horn is the soul of the orchestra" (Robert Schumann). These horns cover the range of emotions and give your orchestra the soul it needs.
Same number of velocity layers, similar articulations just like Hercules. (intro-price: € 65, reg € 95)

Kopernikus - 4 Bb Trompets complementing the other brass sections with its high-end, adding the typical cinimatic trumpet sound to your music.
Spicy fanfares, swells, or high background chords - these trumpets can do all of these. Same count of velocity layers, similar articulations. (intro-price: € 65, reg € 95)


All these feature many mixer presets, and don't forget to check out the "Processed" mixer presets for even more BRASS! (but don't forget that there are 4 more velocity layers, just add some of these for contrast  )

Let me know what you think about these libraries, and what you would like to see in future!


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## axb312 (Jun 3, 2020)

Is this one e-licenser free?


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## holywilly (Jun 3, 2020)

Just checked all the videos, damn, these brass sound just amazing!
Are we expecting the Synchron Brass the next? Or this is it for the brass libraries recorded at Synchron stage?


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## dcoscina (Jun 3, 2020)

My guess would be they all use the e-licenser.


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## Ben (Jun 3, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> My guess would be they all use the e-licenser.


Correct


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## AndyP (Jun 3, 2020)

Phew, those horns sound fantastic.
If strings and woodwinds come next... holy cannonball...


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 3, 2020)

Oh the glorious brass.

The intro pricing on these is ridiculous!

[email protected] dongle crew. You guys are beyond saving.


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## sostenuto (Jun 3, 2020)

Intro pricing @ $ 281. right ? No opinion; just noting total $$. 
Pianist judging Brass content is a bit ludicrous .... so always depending on key comment here ! 
Getting a bit stressed, having purchased all Smart /BBO up thru Andromeda, and now faced with much higher cost ... catching up at full pricing. My bad tho .......


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## SomeGuy (Jun 3, 2020)

Is there a link to the full articulation lists? Cant seem to find them. Love the brass of the other BBO libs, but they can be a bit overwhelming when in full orchestral patches. Having them all on their own to control their balance should be very cool! 

Wondering if this is their answer to "synchron brass" or if there will be a dedicated library ala Synchron strings?


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 3, 2020)

SomeGuy said:


> Is there a link to the full articulation lists? Cant seem to find them. Love the brass of the other BBO libs, but they can be a bit overwhelming when in full orchestral patches. Having them all on their own to control their balance should be very cool!



Here's the articulations:

short bold
short agile
long
long soft
long marcato
long espressivo
legato
legato soft
legato marcato
sforzato
sforzatissimo
swell short
swell long
swell soft
swell super soft
diminuendo soft
fluttertongue
trills half and whole
fast repetitions in 120,140, 160 bpm
rips (horns)
glissandi (low brass)

Definitely not just a "gimmick" or "addon" library. Getting all four modules during the introduction price pretty much gets you a full-fledged, top quality "epic brass" library for 250 bucks.


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## muzark (Jun 3, 2020)

The total REG price is already €370, so should there be Synchron Brass library?


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## jamwerks (Jun 3, 2020)

Man, the recent installement from a German company has met it's match! Brass sounds awesome on the Synchron Stage. Impressive & very musical arts. Kudos to the producers!! And I must say that the time-stretching capabilities really put this one-step ahead of the competition.

Would love to have also:
4 Cimbassi
4 Tenor trombones 

And if you were to do soli Horn & Trumpet (6 layers), Trombone, Bass Trombone & Tuba (5 layers), that would be really cool !!


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Jun 3, 2020)

Sound great!

I'm missing the standard articulation list/table for the BBO Orchestra in general. Would be nice to see which articulations are actually in there.

I'm also wondering about repetition performances. Are these integrated into the legatos and shorts? I can't see that there are separate patches for these as in the older libraries.


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 3, 2020)

DAMN that sounds great !
Hoping strings and woods to make this a complete BBO solution 👍🏻


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## Michael Antrum (Jun 3, 2020)

I'm travelling, so I'm not at home until the weekend to hear these on proper monitors, but even through my macbook pro speakers I am sensing these might be pretty good......

VSL have been knocking it out of the park recently.



sostenuto said:


> Intro pricing @ $ 281. right ? No opinion; just noting total $$.
> Pianist judging Brass content is a bit ludicrous .... so always depending on key comment here !
> Getting a bit stressed, having purchased all Smart /BBO up thru Andromeda, and now faced with much higher cost ... catching up at full pricing. My bad tho .......



It's not compulsory to buy them all.


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## hayvel (Jun 3, 2020)

What a great release, finally a dedicated brass from the synchron stage! Great intro pricing, too, really tempted. 

I actually used the free BBO (Next to Dorado) in my Westworld Competition entry for big brass duty and I think it worked out pretty fine already, despite being a bit of a cheat.  

Looking at the articulation list, this seems to be pretty comprehensive. Demos sound awesome, too... got to check my bank account.


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## José Herring (Jun 3, 2020)

muzark said:


> The total REG price is already €370, so should there be Synchron Brass library?


I'm actually hoping that there isn't. 

With BBO they are going towards a more performance based approach. It seems as if these samples have life and vitality to them. 

If they do a full library, it seems as if they will just go back to the same old style of sampling sterile with little emotion in the samples where you can tell the players are bored stiff because they've been asked to play the same stacc note 1000x's to get it perfect. It certainly sounds that way with Synchron Strings and way sounds that way with synchron percussion. Just bringing the same old VSL sampling philosophy to the wetter stage. Not too appealing for me. 

BBO isn't perfect yet somehow the samples are coming to life. I'm excited to get these actually. The 6 horn patch sounds great. Not sold yet on the low brass offerings but I'm getting there.


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## hayvel (Jun 3, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I'm actually hoping that there isn't.
> 
> With BBO they are going towards a more performance based approach. It seems as if these samples have life and vitality to them.
> 
> ...



I agree, there seems to be a different philosophy behind BBO, it works great and it is nice to see it turns out so well. It seems VSL has landed a hit here, the fact that the series is expanded continuously tells something. Now I wonder what happens when they run out of letters  ...


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## FabioA (Jun 3, 2020)

josejherring said:


> The 6 horn patch sounds great. Not sold yet on the low brass offerings but I'm getting there.



Hercules is actually my favourite chapter. It sounds incredible. Chords, single notes, it just works incredibly well. If you can trust my word try it out and I'm sure you'll see what I mean!


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## Living Fossil (Jun 3, 2020)

Wow, sounds amazing!


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## AEF (Jun 3, 2020)

BBO is suddenly an extremely deep library for scoring and not just sketching with tutti patches. amazing amazing work VSL!


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## marco berco (Jun 3, 2020)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Sound great!
> 
> I'm missing the standard articulation list/table for the BBO Orchestra in general. Would be nice to see which articulations are actually in there.
> 
> I'm also wondering about repetition performances. Are these integrated into the legatos and shorts? I can't see that there are separate patches for these as in the older libraries.


You can quite easily see most the articulations in the great video demos Paul has done as the GUI is fully displayed and you can follow the articulation changing as the videos goes through.


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## marco berco (Jun 3, 2020)

Ben said:


> Hey everyone! After so many requests it's finally here - I'm really glad to finally announce the next _four _BBO libraries:
> 
> BBO: Hercules - Low Brass (oh boy, I'm in love with the contrabass tuba...)
> BBO: Izar - Low Brass Clusters
> ...



Thanks Ben. For the introductory price, this is a real bargain for what we get. VSL is definitely taking the head in the sample market whith such products. Thumbs up !


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 3, 2020)

Haha, they did say earlier that they don't expect to make it all the way to the end of the alphabet, but now, at this rate, I'm not so sure...


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 3, 2020)

I am not positive, but I think this StarDate post may be the origin of the naming for Izar:

"To the left of Arcturus is fainter *Izar*. A telescope reveals that *Izar* is really two stars, one of which is orange, the other blue-white."

It also comes up in Star Trek though:









Izar


Izar (or Epsilon Boötis III) is a Class M planet located in the Epsilon Boötis system of the Alpha Quadrant. In 2183, the United Federation of Planets established the Izar colony on the planet's surface, and the planet quickly became a member world, with a predominantly human population. The LUG...




memory-beta.fandom.com





*Izar* (or *Epsilon Boötis III*) is a Class M planet located in the Epsilon Boötis system of the Alpha Quadrant. In 2183, the United Federation of Planets established the Izar colony on the planet's surface, and the planet quickly became a member world, with a predominantly human population.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 3, 2020)

Is Kopernikus named after the astronomer himself, or after the lunar crater:

*Copernicus* is a lunar impact crater located in eastern Oceanus Procellarum. It was named after the astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus. It typifies craters that formed during the Copernican period in that it has a prominent ray system.

Copernicus is visible using binoculars, and is located slightly northwest of the center of the Moon's Earth-facing hemisphere. South of the crater is the Mare Insularum, and to the south-south west is the crater Reinhold. North of Copernicus are the Montes Carpatus, which lie at the south edge of Mare Imbrium. West of Copernicus is a group of dispersed lunar hills. Due to its relative youth, the crater has remained in a relatively pristine shape since it formed.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 3, 2020)

Hercules may also be named after a lunar crater vs. the mythical hero/god:

Hercules is a prominent crater located in the northeast part of the Moon, to the west of the crater Atlas. It lies along the east edge of a southward extension in the Mare Frigoris. To the west across the mare is Bürg. To the south is the ruined crater Williams.

*Hercules* is a prominent crater located in the northeast part of the Moon, to the west of the crater Atlas. It lies along the east edge of a southward extension in the Mare Frigoris. To the west across the mare is Bürg. To the south is the ruined crater Williams.

The interior walls of Hercules have multiple terraces, and there is a small outer rampart. The crater floor has been flooded by lava in the past, and contains several areas of low albedo. The central peak has been buried, leaving only a low hill near the midpoint. The satellite crater Hercules G is located prominently just to the south of the center. The small crater Hercules E lies along the southern rim of Hercules.

In the past this crater has been reported as the site of some transient lunar phenomenon.


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## Virtuoso (Jun 3, 2020)

Jupiter was named after a classic 80s keyboard known for its awesome brass.


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 3, 2020)

I feel stupid that I didn't draw that specific connection, as I never cared for its synth brass. You are probably right that this is the reference vs. the more generic assumption of the planet or the god himself (both of which were of course what the synth was named after). I always thought the Jupiter synth was better known for its synth strings and pads plus effects, and even e-pianos.

Thinking about this some more, I don't really think the Roland synth was the inspiration behind the name. These horns are WAY more majestic and big and three-dimensional or "spatial" sounding, and truly evoke an image of the giant planet!


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 3, 2020)

Mythology aside, these are all awesome! Maybe one of these days, I'll have enough SSD space to add more stuff, but as I couldn't even load much of the just-purchased Bosendorfer, I have to enforce a moratorium for now. I priced SSD's again yesterday, and they are somewhat pricier than 2-½ years ago, even if only buying 1TB or 2TB. I'm talking USBC/Thunderbolt3 versions though.


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## Virtuoso (Jun 3, 2020)

(I'm just joking)


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## dcoscina (Jun 3, 2020)

Ben said:


> Correct


What do I win for guessing right? 🤪


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 3, 2020)

I vote that you get a free eLicenser key for guessing correctly that it needs one.

And for those of us who guessed correctly that we need these four libraries, I guess that means we win them for free as well.


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 3, 2020)

holywilly said:


> Are we expecting the Synchron Brass the next? Or this is it for the brass libraries recorded at Synchron stage?



I am wondering the same. 

@Ben - can you comment please?


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 3, 2020)

Oh, I think we can all rest assured that this is it, and that there will be no more Synchron libraries! I am certain they have already paid all their bills and can now retire in luxury on the French Riviera!


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 3, 2020)

Mark Schmieder said:


> Oh, I think we can all rest assured that this is it, and that there will be no more Synchron libraries! I am certain they have already paid all their bills and can now retire in luxury on the French Riviera!


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 3, 2020)

No - I got that you were being sarcastic.


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## muzark (Jun 3, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I'm actually hoping that there isn't.
> 
> With BBO they are going towards a more performance based approach. It seems as if these samples have life and vitality to them.
> 
> ...


But Big Bang Series are listed as STARTER EDITIONS together with VI SE, Synchron-ized SE and Smart Orchestra.


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## Virtuoso (Jun 4, 2020)

Well, that's odd. I bought Hercules, but on my eLicenser it shows as 'Himalia', which is apparently a moon of Jupiter (or a Cypriote nymph!). Maybe marketing decided the name needed beefing up?


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## Mark Schmieder (Jun 4, 2020)

Based on this full list of 79 known moons of Jupiter, I don't think the quartet of libraries at any point was exclusively devoted to that theme, but there certainly is a remnant of that concept.









Moons of Jupiter - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## Iswhatitis (Jun 4, 2020)

Hercules and Jupiter sound good. Kopernikus is just okay. I’m not sure why Izar is not priced much lower since it is way too specific of a sound and would be at least significantly more usuable if there were many more types of clusters and not just the one. Izar should really be included with Hercules for a little more money, it’s completely overpriced.


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## Virtuoso (Jun 4, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> Izar should really be included with Hercules for a little more money, it’s completely overpriced.


I quite like the à la carte nature of BBO. Hercules is great and will get plenty of use here, but I have no use for Izar, so I appreciate not having to pay for it! 

Maybe Izar was priced that way because it still has most of the articulations of Hercules (except the legato I think?), so although it's more niche it still has plenty of content.


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## ProfoundSilence (Jun 4, 2020)

Trumpets felt the weakest, but all in all great sound and a great price!


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Jun 4, 2020)

Pixelpoet1985 said:


> Sound great!
> 
> I'm missing the standard articulation list/table for the BBO Orchestra in general. Would be nice to see which articulations are actually in there.
> 
> I'm also wondering about repetition performances. Are these integrated into the legatos and shorts? I can't see that there are separate patches for these as in the older libraries.


Noticed that sample content is available now as a tab. Thanks for showing the articulations instead of only mentioning them in the product text. 

@Ben
Would you be so nice and tell us about performance repetitions? I think they are integrated now instead of separate patches.


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## Ben (Jun 5, 2020)

Hey @Pixelpoet1985, I just got the info from Herb:
Your assumption is correct, the performance repetitions are integrated in the articulations. Legato repetitions in the Longs and the Legato patches, Staccato repetitions in the shorts.
Btw, we have also optimized the Short Agile articulation for fast runs and ostinatos!


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Jun 5, 2020)

Ben said:


> Hey @Pixelpoet1985, I just got the info from Herb:
> Your assumption is correct, the performance repetitions are integrated in the articulations. Legato repetitions in the Longs and the Legato patches, Staccato repetitions in the shorts.
> Btw, we have also optimized the Short Agile articulation for fast runs and ostinatos!



Thanks!  That's good to know and also very important, because other libraries on the market don't have repetitions the way VSL makes them or at all. They are so crucial for convincing music.

I really like that you recently integrated these in the patches. Now I want them for my VI instruments!  It immensely reduces the need of articulation switching.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 5, 2020)

Hmm.. this is turning out to be quite an expensive investment overall though. I've already bought all the instalments so far and now another €250? With no sign of it ending? Don't get me wrong, they are on the whole great products but this is incredibly smart marketing. Keep producing library subsets, each at a reasonable price so that people feel they are getting a 'bargain' but in reality it all builds up to quite an amount cumulatively. And hard to resist once you have committed to the first few instalments cos it feels like leaving the overall 'library' incomplete..

Obviously not an issue for those with plentiful funds but if money is an issue then it's a little hard to keep up. Of course we have a choice whether or not to keep buying each new instalment but I for one feel almost compelled to complete the set. As I say, very smart marketing..


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## Pixelpoet1985 (Jun 5, 2020)

You don't have to buy all of the packs! That's the great thing. And the alphabet ends with a Z, unless they switch to another letter/number system from another galaxy. 

I only have the free basic pack, because I don't need the tutti ensembles. But the brass instruments may change my view, especially for this price.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 5, 2020)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Hmm.. this is turning out to be quite an expensive investment overall though. I've already bought all the instalments so far and now another €250? With no sign of it ending? Don't get me wrong, they are on the whole great products but this is incredibly smart marketing. Keep producing library subsets, each at a reasonable price so that people feel they are getting a 'bargain' but in reality it all builds up to quite an amount cumulatively. And hard to resist once you have committed to the first few instalments cos it feels like leaving the overall 'library' incomplete..
> 
> Obviously not an issue for those with plentiful funds but if money is an issue then it's a little hard to keep up. Of course we have a choice whether or not to keep buying each new instalment but I for one feel almost compelled to complete the set. As I say, very smart marketing..



Absolutely - very smart marketing and paired with the fact that the products themselves are exciting and of great quality makes this an absolute home run for VSL.

By the time this thing is complete, it'll end up being a costly investment if you want to have all installments. But on the other hand, judging by how they added the brass now, this is kind of shaping up into a complete sections + tutti + performances & effects orchestra line. If they decide to add strings sections similar to brass, it's basically VSLs take on the Metropolis/Symphobia/Albion approach. And let's not forget that in its current form BBO dwarfs Metropolis Ark 1 by nearly 100% in terms of data size, which costs 600 bucks (and even more if you complete it section by section à la carte), is almost 4 times as big as Jaeger which is also about 600 bucks, and 2,5 times bigger than Albion ONE which comes at ca. 450 bucks. Looking at it like that, it's actually not too bad.


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## sostenuto (Jun 5, 2020)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Hmm.. this is turning out to be quite an expensive investment overall though. I've already bought all the instalments so far and now another €250? With no sign of it ending? Don't get me wrong, they are on the whole great products but this is incredibly smart marketing. Keep producing library subsets, each at a reasonable price so that people feel they are getting a 'bargain' but in reality it all builds up to quite an amount cumulatively. And hard to resist once you have committed to the first few instalments cos it feels like leaving the overall 'library' incomplete..
> 
> Obviously not an issue for those with plentiful funds but if money is an issue then it's a little hard to keep up. Of course we have a choice whether or not to keep buying each new instalment but I for one feel almost compelled to complete the set. As I say, very smart marketing..



Much the same here and got delayed after Andromeda. To 'catch up' is over $900. right now and a hefty $250. zinger after missing Intro(s) on several. Not criticizing at all, but new offerings coming quite fast, which is great, but lotsa $$$$ is short time. 

Quality _ Yes! Exciting _ Yes! Great videos _ Yes! Superb Marketing. 
BBO has been magnet pulling me into VSL for first time. 
Problem is __ nuther player now reentering, and personal hurdle with BBO catch-up challenge. Congrats VSL ! Really got it right with this one.


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## rrichard63 (Jun 5, 2020)

MarcusMaximus said:


> Hmm.. this is turning out to be quite an expensive investment overall though. I've already bought all the instalments so far and now another €250? With no sign of it ending? Don't get me wrong, they are on the whole great products but this is incredibly smart marketing. Keep producing library subsets, each at a reasonable price so that people feel they are getting a 'bargain' but in reality it all builds up to quite an amount cumulatively. And hard to resist once you have committed to the first few installments cos it feels like leaving the overall 'library' incomplete..
> 
> Obviously not an issue for those with plentiful funds but if money is an issue then it's a little hard to keep up. Of course we have a choice whether or not to keep buying each new installment but I for one feel almost compelled to complete the set. As I say, very smart marketing..


Very well said. I've been planning to post essentially the same thoughts. At one or two modules a month I was (almost) able to keep up. But I can't keep up with four in one month. My guess (just a guess at this point) is that once I skip part or all of a month, I won't come back anytime soon.


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## SlHarder (Jun 5, 2020)

Has anyone done an independent walkthru or are comments all based on the announce vids? Like to hear from folks who have purchased.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 5, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> Very well said. I've been planning to post essentially the same thoughts. At one or two modules a month I was (almost) able to keep up. But I can't keep up with four in one month. My guess (just a guess at this point) is that once I skip part or all of a month, I won't come back anytime soon.


Good to hear that I'm not the only one thinking this way. I'm not criticising VSL but I do feel a bit 'enticed by the carrot' to keep investing in these products. Of course I have a choice at any time whether to continue, or to skip an instalment or whatever but that's the whole point of clever marketing and advertising - the psychology of it works at a subconscious level which often influences us beyond our rational thinking. So we feel compelled to buy the 'shiny new object' whether we really want/need it or not because of the way it is presented, which in this case is a seemingly endless stream of connected products (and Z is quite a long way and many future instalments away!). I may well pull out at this point too - €250 is a hefty outlay for me right now and I can't really see a way to 'just pick one or two of them'.. that would be like buying two thirds of a jigsaw and living with an incomplete picture. Maybe better to shelve this particular puzzle and go for one where I can see the whole of what I'm letting myself in for from the outset. 

I suppose that's my real gripe here: I would much prefer if VSL had declared from the start how many instalments there would ultimately be, plus the total cost involved at both introductory and final price points, so that we could decide whether or not to invest from the start. This episodic release policy really does feel like I'm being led along by an almost irresistible imperative to keep buying each release. However I do hear that not everyone experiences it this way.

Anyway, I don't want to be a nay-sayer here. They are no doubt lovely sounding and very useful sound-packs in their own right. I just wish they were marketed differently.


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## maestro2be (Jun 5, 2020)

This is a stellar and welcomed release! They sound amazing and looking forward to many more! Keep them coming!


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## sostenuto (Jun 5, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> This is a stellar and welcomed release! They sound amazing and looking forward to many more! Keep them coming!



Do You also have other VSL Orchestral content ?? (other than Smart Orch/Spheres /BBO)


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## maestro2be (Jun 5, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> Do You also have other VSL Orchestral content ?? (other than Smart Orch/Spheres /BBO)


I do. I own almost every product that VSL has ever made.


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## sostenuto (Jun 5, 2020)

maestro2be said:


> I do. I own almost every product that VSL has ever made.



Credible comment then and helps as considering more commitment to BBO. 
Commercial Thread prevents from raising notable _reentry_ offering as reason for more BBO analysis.


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## Ben (Jun 6, 2020)

BBO: Hercules



BBO: Kopernikus


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## AndyP (Jun 6, 2020)

I will probably only take Hercules and Jupiter. They sound sensational. 

For trumpets I prefer to stay with Cinebrass, Bravura, Century Brass and HWB.
VSL trumpets have somehow never pleased me in any of their libraries.

Of the already existing packages I left out Black Eye, Eridanus, Vornax and Ganymede. 
Ganymede in particular did not convince me at all.

I will buy Black Eye when there is a sale. When Black Eye was released the Synchron Player did not have the time stretch with host synchronization, which I thought was essential.


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 6, 2020)

AndyP said:


> I will probably only take Hercules and Jupiter. They sound sensational.
> 
> For trumpets I prefer to stay with Cinebrass, Bravura, Century Brass and HWB.
> VSL trumpets have somehow never pleased me in any of their libraries.
> ...


You demonstrate a wise (and enviable!) ability to discriminate and choose according to your specific requirements and the relative merit of each instalment. I shall have to ask myself why I have felt compelled to buy them all, or else drop out altogether. I will take this up with my therapist.


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## AndyP (Jun 6, 2020)

MarcusMaximus said:


> You demonstrate a wise (and enviable!) ability to discriminate and choose according to your specific requirements and the relative merit of each instalment. I shall have to ask myself why I have felt compelled to buy them all, or else drop out altogether. I will take this up with my therapist.


The temptation is always there at the beginning, meanwhile I take my time and listen to demos and watch the walkthroughs carefully and then decide if I want, need or even like it.

There are so many good (and unfortunately also bad) libraries out there, and not all of them are always good or bad. I wouldn't make a few purchase decisions today after using the libraries.

Somehow this is part of the process of working with sample libraries.
Variety is great, but unfortunately also expensive.


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## sostenuto (Jun 6, 2020)

MarcusMaximus said:


> You demonstrate a wise (and enviable!) ability to discriminate and choose according to your specific requirements and the relative merit of each instalment. I shall have to ask myself why I have felt compelled to buy them all, or else drop out altogether. I will take this up with my therapist.



You could share the advices and save some duplicate expense by others, so-afflicted ....


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## sostenuto (Jun 6, 2020)

AndyP said:


> I will probably only take Hercules and Jupiter. They sound sensational.
> 
> For trumpets I prefer to stay with Cinebrass, Bravura, Century Brass and HWB.
> VSL trumpets have somehow never pleased me in any of their libraries.
> ...



Your perspectives here are helpful, particularly for some who are less capable of sorting deeper characteristics __ as these rapid releases flow ! Stopped at Andromeda and now analyzing path forward.
Easy to get caught up in early enthusiasm, especially as a new VSL user. THX !


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## MarcusMaximus (Jun 6, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> You could share the advices and save some duplicate expense by others, so-afflicted ....


I'll share the advice if you'd be willing to share the expense! Hey we could start up a support group for those less capable of moderation and consideration than others..  

Yes, some very helpful perspective from AndyP. What makes it hard for me to take my time and really think about a particular instalment is of course the introductory pricing. However they do usually give a month or so before that runs out so I need to put more effort into evaluating during that period.


----------



## AndyP (Jun 6, 2020)

MarcusMaximus said:


> I'll share the advice if you'd be willing to share the expense! Hey we could start up a support group for those less capable of moderation and consideration than others..
> 
> Yes, some very helpful perspective from AndyP. What makes it hard for me to take my time and really think about a particular instalment is of course the introductory pricing. However they do usually give a month or so before that runs out so I need to put more effort into evaluating during that period.


Please do not misunderstand, I do not want to keep anyone from buying libraries! It is a matter of taste and my opinion is certainly not shared by everyone!


----------



## rrichard63 (Jun 6, 2020)

When evaluating a collection like BBO, I can't escape the feeling that the usefulness of each installment depends, in part, on how many other installments I have. That's what makes it hard to accept that fact that I can't afford to keep up with four installments per month.


----------



## Ben (Jun 6, 2020)

That's a great thing about the BBO Seris imo: You can get what you need/want. Even if you can't afford them at the moment, pick them up later; even at the normal price they are not expensive for what they offer.
And you can combine them perfectly with the other Synchron and SYNCHRON-ized libraries.


----------



## AndyP (Jun 6, 2020)

Ben said:


> And you can combine them perfectly with the other Synchron and SYNCHRON-ized libraries.


This!


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## José Herring (Jun 6, 2020)

AndyP said:


> For trumpets I prefer to stay with Cinebrass, Bravura, Century Brass and HWB.
> VSL trumpets have somehow never pleased me in any of their libraries.



You prefer the crass sounding American valve trumpets? 18th century rotary trumpets forever!


----------



## José Herring (Jun 6, 2020)

Ben said:


> BBO: Hercules
> 
> 
> 
> BBO: Kopernikus



OMG, the horn patch is to die for! I'm trying so hard not to get these as I already have great french horns galore. 

Impossible orchestrations though. Stacking up 6 horns on four note chords, yikes. But..... if the samples can do it and it's not going to go live then why not.

There is a sucking sound on the samples. I haven't had experience with the new player but is there a way to adjust the release tail or the release envelope? Could be just the orchestration though. Banging out chords with a single patch is bound to lead to problems with the samples.


----------



## Drumdude2112 (Jun 6, 2020)

I got a fever baby , and the only cure is more BBO Installments 🤣🤣👍🏻


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## AndyP (Jun 6, 2020)

josejherring said:


> You prefer the crass sounding American valve trumpets? 18th century rotary trumpets forever!


----------



## Ben (Jun 6, 2020)

josejherring said:


> I haven't had experience with the new player but is there a way to adjust the release tail or the release envelope?







__





Edit Tab | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info


----------



## MarcusMaximus (Jun 6, 2020)

rrichard63 said:


> When evaluating a collection like BBO, I can't escape the feeling that the usefulness of each installment depends, in part, on how many other installments I have. That's what makes it hard to accept that fact that I can't afford to keep up with four installments per month.


Yes exactly. If I don't buy all the instalments but rather pick and choose, then it's hard not to feel that something is missing from the usefulness of the overall library.


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## SomeGuy (Jun 6, 2020)

AndyP said:


> For trumpets I prefer to stay with Cinebrass, Bravura, Century Brass and HWB.
> VSL trumpets have somehow never pleased me in any of their libraries.



Agree about the trumpets but wondering if they are worth it just so everything is coming from the same stage? How important is that or have you found a good way to blend other trumpet libs with BBO?


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## sostenuto (Jun 6, 2020)

SomeGuy said:


> Agree about the trumpets but wondering if they are worth it just so everything is coming from the same stage? How important is that or have you found a good way to blend other trumpet libs with BBO?



YES !!! ^^^^ Many here with chops to mix /layer almost any libs when needed. 
No question more personal learning is desirable, but have tended toward one top provider (in projects) in most cases. BBO seems to have made this even greater strength as they build on it thru cool supporting videos. Sure; good value at full price, but 30% above Intro adds up _very_ quickly !


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## shawnsingh (Jun 6, 2020)

Just bought them and downloading now!


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## marco berco (Jun 6, 2020)

SomeGuy said:


> Agree about the trumpets but wondering if they are worth it just so everything is coming from the same stage? How important is that or have you found a good way to blend other trumpet libs with BBO?


Personally I purchased the 4 sets at the introductory price and found the Kopernikus trumpets very good. They blend really well with the Dimension Brass too, and when used with the nice surround mics with adjusting the dynamic range and other CC’s, you can have the sound you want and a very powerful sound if needed. More, I found the Synchron and Synchronized being the best partners for layering Note Performer 3 for those who want to write more than playing, they perfectly match. All 4 sets combined at this introductory price, I think no library could beat this one IMHO.


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## shawnsingh (Jun 6, 2020)

What mix settings do various people like?

I found this to be my favorite sound so far:
02 Surround to Stereo --> 03 Wide Sur to Stereo --> mute the Reverb, Close, Mid and High channels, i.e. only keep main LR, main C, and high surround. The delays set up on that preset seem to be important and well done, I found that turning off those delays flattened the 3-d sound too much.

For my taste, this creates a nice wide stage, thanks to the high surround mic, but it still has reflections that come from all sides and lets the room do it's job to get that powerful brass sound thanks to the tree.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 7, 2020)

josejherring said:


> You prefer the crass sounding American valve trumpets? 18th century rotary trumpets forever!



Heh, that's always the thing with brass libraries. Having spent 30 years in Austria, the "wrong" sounding american trumpets in most "cinematic" libraries always throw me off for a second.


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## Iswhatitis (Jun 7, 2020)

SlHarder said:


> Has anyone done an independent walkthru or are comments all based on the announce vids? Like to hear from folks who have purchased.


I got Hercules, Izar, Jupiter and Kopernikus. Hercules and Jupiter are good. Kopernikus is just okay, I don’t like the legato, and the overall tone is not quite as good as in Hercules and Jupiter. Izar feels like a big waste of money 💰 and I don’t recommend anyone getting it. I don’t own all of the BBO. I don’t see the need to get Capricorn, Andromeda and Ganymede. I do eventually want to get Black Eye.

In general, I am not a fan of the Synchron Stage sound, it’s too boxy 📦 and IMHO does not flatter the recording of acoustic instruments 🎻 🎺 🥁


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## Ben (Jun 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> In general, I am not a fan of the Synchron Stage sound, it’s too boxy


I had never the impression it was "boxy", and I was in this room a few times...
Have you tried some of the included mixer presets? These change the sound a lot.


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## Dietz (Jun 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> the Synchron Stage sound, it’s too boxy


Yeah! A box with 6000 m^3!


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## Iswhatitis (Jun 7, 2020)

Ben said:


> I had never the impression it was "boxy", and I was in this room a few times...
> Have you tried some of the included mixer presets? These change the sound a lot.


Ben, I own lots of VSL and I’m sure I’ll buy more, but even when I turn up the Room or Surround mixes I just don’t love the reflections and tone of instruments recorded in the Synchron Stage the way I do with other scoring stages. The instruments very well may sound great when one is actually at Synchron but for me IMHO I don’t love the sound of these instruments in that room. Seems like I need to add other verb to the samples to get it to sound the way I personally prefer, which I don’t have to do with other libraries. I will definitely use the Synchron libraries in my work flow, just don’t love that room 🧐 Chalk it up to my personal taste and opinion 🤔 I certainly appreciate VSL especially VEP. I’ll go back and tinker with the room and surround mic mixes again and see if I can find what I’m looking for. Overall, Hercules and Jupiter sound good!!


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## shawnsingh (Jun 7, 2020)

I'm optimistic you might still be able to get the sound you're looking for. Could you please try the mic mix I proposed in comment 79? Not that I expect it will change your mind, but I'd be curious to hear your reaction and maybe I'd learn to hear something in a new way. But still - I'm wondering if mid and close mic positions are contributing to your feeling of boxiness of synchron stage? For me, the close and mids miss the live richness of the room, so having them mixed in too prominently can actually detract.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> Seems like I need to add other verb to the samples to get it to sound the way I personally prefer, which I don’t have to do with other libraries.



For me pesonally, that's the way it should be. I expect to add a bit my own reverb and like the flexibility that it gives me. To me, the important part of recorded natural ambience is the sense of space and distance and early bloom - not so much the richness and length of the tails. The latter IMO isn't even that important and can be done reasonably well with reverbs - it's the early stuff that's very difficult to recreate. From that perspective, the Synchron stuff is ideal for me - it's 3D, the depth perception and separation is there, but it's not a soup.


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## marco berco (Jun 7, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> I got Hercules, Izar, Jupiter and Kopernikus. Hercules and Jupiter are good. Kopernikus is just okay, I don’t like the legato, and the overall tone is not quite as good as in Hercules and Jupiter. Izar feels like a big waste of money 💰 and I don’t recommend anyone getting it. I don’t own all of the BBO. I don’t see the need to get Capricorn, Andromeda and Ganymede. I do eventually want to get Black Eye.
> 
> In general, I am not a fan of the Synchron Stage sound, it’s too boxy 📦 and IMHO does not flatter the recording of acoustic instruments 🎻 🎺 🥁


I don’t agree with the Synchron Stage Sound being too boxy. If one knows how to deal with the many possibilities The Synchron Player offers you can get almost any sound you need for your compositions. IMHO Synchron Stagd is one of the best sounding stagd of the world. By the way Kopernicus is not ok, it is very good, especially if you select the right mics and reverb.


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## jamwerks (Jun 7, 2020)

It's very true that different halls can sound surprisingly different: Synchron, Teldex and Sony all have their own vibe, and we'll all have our preferences for each instrument group. Luckily it's very easy imo to alter that vibe with something like Spaces II or the new Cinematic Rooms.


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## Iswhatitis (Jun 7, 2020)

marco berco said:


> I don’t agree with the Synchron Stage Sound being too boxy. If one knows how to deal with the many possibilities The Synchron Player offers you can get almost any sound you need for your compositions. IMHO Synchron Stagd is one of the best sounding stagd of the world. By the way Kopernicus is not ok, it is very good, especially if you select the right mics and reverb.


Aren’t you supposed to say “this was a paid advertisement?”


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## AndyP (Jun 7, 2020)

Kopernicus has somehow ended up in the shopping cart after all. No idea how they got in there. 
Maybe they are my taste, at that price I could stand it if they weren't.


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## sostenuto (Jun 7, 2020)

AndyP said:


> Kopernicus has somehow ended up in the shopping cart after all. No idea how they got in there.
> Maybe they are my taste, at that price I could stand it if they weren't.



Being gently, yet steadily dragged in ....  Cannot get any further behind on recent releases and Brass is priority. OTH ... not pleased with critiques of IZAR ......


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## AndyP (Jun 7, 2020)

The stupid thing is, once you start BBO, you keep going.
I left out IZAR, so you have to have some self-respect.


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## AndyP (Jun 7, 2020)

Okay, I confess... Kopernicus is... I´ve tried the Wall of Trumpets mixer setting... more than useful...
Much better than expected.
So without further ado, the brass package is fantastic. Very powerful, but also soft.
The number of dynamic layers pays off.

With the mixer presets a great package. Well done VSL!


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## sostenuto (Jun 7, 2020)

Vote for Brass Bundle @ ~ $200.  Lose the Ivar objections ?


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## Ben (Jun 9, 2020)

Big Bang Orchestra: Izar Walkthrough


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## JEPA (Jun 9, 2020)

Ben said:


> Big Bang Orchestra: Izar Walkthrough



The glissandi up and down + the transition effect sound amazing!


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## SlHarder (Jun 9, 2020)

Ben said:


> Big Bang Orchestra: Izar Walkthrough



Is there a Jupiter walkthru coming?


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## sostenuto (Jun 9, 2020)

JEPA said:


> The glissandi up and down + the transition effect sound amazing!



Can you add 'gross' opinion of how much Izar gains via Hercules ?? Not Brass guy and few Izar negative posts raised my concern. Perhaps these did not allow for Hercules tie ?


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## Ben (Jun 9, 2020)

SlHarder said:


> Is there a Jupiter walkthru coming?


Yes! You can already see it here: https://www.vsl.co.at/en/BBO_Map/BBO_Jupiter#!Video_Demos
On YouTube we will publish the same video within the next days.


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## JEPA (Jun 9, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> Can you add 'gross' opinion of how much Izar gains via Hercules ?? Not Brass guy and few Izar negative posts raised my concern. Perhaps these did not allow for Hercules tie ?


I think is a matter of style. I am not a brass player also, but I love brass and have rehearsed with brass musicians. From the video I hear good possibilities to use this transition in compositions. The VSL site has good demo examples of Izar. I haven't use this till now, but I can report later!


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## Ben (Jun 9, 2020)

I usually do not use cluster, but I can imagine using these at low levels in the background to build up tension. I think they work perfectly to add a tense or scary tone to your compositions 
But they work at high levels or in dynamics as well: https://www.vsl.co.at/en/BBO_Map/BBO_Izar#!Demos


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## Ben (Jun 10, 2020)




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## Michael Antrum (Jun 10, 2020)

I just got home after a bit of a road trip, sat down with a brew, and bought BBO Jupiter....


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## method1 (Jun 10, 2020)

Well done VSL, these (not so) little libraries are outstanding, the different mic positions are really great.
Enjoying these a lot!


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## marco berco (Jun 13, 2020)

Iswhatitis said:


> Aren’t you supposed to say “this was a paid advertisement?”



I don't work neither being paid by any commercial Sample Library Producer for any advertising and i own many Libraries from many brands (too many now for my own taste but one needs to explore at a time). I just wanted to say that since VSL released their Synchron Player I totally loved the way it worked in combination with VE Pro 7 and their new Libraries. Then I naturally became a really big fan as having written for real orchestras I found VSL very close to the natural instruments sounds. I own all the BBO so far so as many other Synchron-ized and I am not disappointed at all and I will keeping regularly ordering from them. The thing is when you are used to the full libraries potential using SY-Player, you can easily make every sound you are deaming of. The BBO is a terrific tool and i confirm that Kopernicus Trumpets are really good, especially for one who knows how to properly use the player. Synchron stuff made VSL great again...!


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## Ben (Jun 15, 2020)

One thing you should try out with these libraries (especially low brass and horns): Move/remove the keyswitches and extend the playable range by clicking the "active range" feature and click-drag the markers up to an octave: https://www.vsl.info/manuals/synchron-player/gui-overview

(It's the icon right next to the "17")






Of course this will play pitched samples, but the result is impressive anyways.
You need the low brass+contrabass tuba doubled an octave down? Or you need a few more notes above or below the play range of these instruments? Just use this awsome feature 
The low pitched french horns work great for low chords imo; give it a try!


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## jaketanner (Jun 15, 2020)

holywilly said:


> Just checked all the videos, damn, these brass sound just amazing!
> Are we expecting the Synchron Brass the next? Or this is it for the brass libraries recorded at Synchron stage?


My exact question to Ben. But he can’t say more which really sucks. Don’t see why they can’t say what’s on agenda for the coming year so people know.


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## Zero&One (Jun 15, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> My exact question to Ben. But he can’t say more which really sucks. Don’t see why they can’t say what’s on agenda for the coming year so people know.



I guess projects change, times slip, some get shelved. CH mentioned several projects were binned on a recent Spitfire QA. So if they released road maps, you can imagine the disappointment. Look at this covid situation.
Gaming industry is the same. The ones who release info way ahead and don't deliver are generally mocked and hated from then on. And then's there's the competition.


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## Ben (Jun 15, 2020)

I want to quote my colleagues response to a similar question in our forum: "The reason for this philosophy is to prevent disappointments on both sides, in case plans change."

All I can say at this point: The year is far from over and we have some exciting products in pipeline. Make sure you are subscribed to our newsletter and our YouTube channel, and you will be the first to know about these awsome products!
(and of course there are more Synchron and BBO libraries coming  )


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## jaketanner (Jun 15, 2020)

Zero&One said:


> I guess projects change, times slip, some get shelved. CH mentioned several projects were binned on a recent Spitfire QA. So if they released road maps, you can imagine the disappointment. Look at this covid situation.
> Gaming industry is the same. The ones who release info way ahead and don't deliver are generally mocked and hated from then on. And then's there's the competition.


I mean...don't give out dates, but at least what's on the table. Like with Century Winds...can't get an answer if this library is even being considered. Makes total sense to complete the libraries, but without confirmation it's very frustrating as an owner of the unfinished series...just don't think it's fair to the customers to start a set of libraries and then not give us any indication if it's going to be completed. Whether it ever does or not is a different story, I am just looking for the intent. It's like CSW...yeah it's eagerly awaited...but at least we KNOW for certain that it's being worked on. From a business standpoint, it lets customers know to wait or stop waiting for a product to be released...helps us make better decisions.


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## jaketanner (Jun 15, 2020)

Ben said:


> (and of course there are more Synchron and BBO libraries coming  )


See...THAT tells me to wait. Thank you..so know we know that the Synchron libraries will be completed. Thanks Ben. Don't need a date, just the intent is fine with me.


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## Ben (Jun 15, 2020)

If this is all you need to know: yes, of course there will be more


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## JEPA (Jun 15, 2020)

All I want to say is that this "Parallel Mode" for these Brass Libraries is *GENIUS!!! *Apart from the libraries themselves that are impressive, with the parallel mode you can do lot of magic! 🧝‍♀️


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## jaketanner (Jun 15, 2020)

JEPA said:


> All I want to say is that this "Parallel Mode" for these Brass Libraries is *GENIUS!!! *Apart from the libraries themselves that are impressive, with the parallel mode you can do lot of magic! 🧝‍♀️


Which do you have? I am interested in the brass...anything you can offer in terms of opinion?


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## RonOrchComp (Jun 15, 2020)

JEPA said:


> All I want to say is that this "Parallel Mode" for these Brass Libraries is *GENIUS!!!*



What is "Parallel Mode" please?


----------



## Ben (Jun 15, 2020)

Dimension Tree View | VSL - Software Manuals







www.vsl.info





It has two modes: xfade or mix. And it either crossfades between two or more cells or mixes them, or even some are mixed and some are crossfades. 
With this you can can combine different articulations and mix / blend these. 
Also nice: if you own BBO H and BBO I you will get a preset combining both libraries so you can crossfades between the articulations with midi cc.


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## JEPA (Jun 16, 2020)

RonOrchComp said:


> What is "Parallel Mode" please?



This:



Ben said:


> Dimension Tree View | VSL - Software Manuals
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JEPA (Jun 16, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Which do you have? I am interested in the brass...anything you can offer in terms of opinion?


I think this Brass Pack is really complete. You have the "Hercules" low brass fundament for all the low end you would want to achieve from soft to fff, with "Izar" you can add the textures of clusters or crossfade with "Hercules" for clean ends or beginnings, or between long phrases. Then "Jupiter" and "Kopernikus" are killers for melody, harmony or whatever in between. There are no solo instruments, e.g. 1 solo instrument, but they are recorded so well cohesive that you can play a melody for the group of trumpets, horns or inclusive the low brass group with the dynamics and you can achieve realistic results. I have made this demo only for the Brass Packs, no strings etc., to show the whole Brass Orchestra, hopefully another one coming soon:



walkthrough:


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## holywilly (Jun 16, 2020)

Sooooo tempting!!!!!


----------



## jaketanner (Jun 16, 2020)

JEPA said:


> I think this Brass Pack is really complete. You have the "Hercules" low brass fundament for all the low end you would want to achieve from soft to fff, with "Izar" you can add the textures of clusters or crossfade with "Hercules" for clean ends or beginnings, or between long phrases. Then "Jupiter" and "Kopernikus" are killers for melody, harmony or whatever in between. There are no solo instruments, e.g. 1 solo instrument, but they are recorded so well cohesive that you can play a melody for the group of trumpets, horns or inclusive the low brass group with the dynamics and you can achieve realistic results. I have made this demo only for the Brass Packs, no strings etc., to show the whole Brass Orchestra, hopefully another one coming soon:
> 
> 
> 
> walkthrough:



Thank you. I think I saw the tutorial already. Just wanna make sure that it will add something that my Century Brass doesn't. Although, I do like to have close to complete libraries from the same developers (if they're good)...in this case VSl seems to excellent in most everything.


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## dts_marin (Jun 16, 2020)

These give me a bit of hope for Synchron WW. Please VSL don't let us down. Having to work with incomplete/inconsistent WWs is worse than Dante's Inferno. Save us from the eternal pain.


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## Ben (Jun 16, 2020)

Here are some good news for you:
The BBO Brass packages are now available as 30 days demos on the product pages!
All you need is an USB eLicenser and a VSL account.






HERCULES: Low Brass - Vienna Symphonic Library


Big Bang Orchestra: Hercules includes brass ensemble recordings of four bass trombones, one bass tuba, and one contrabass tuba that plays an octave below the other instruments and can be individually turned on or off.




www.vsl.co.at









IZAR: Low Brass Clusters - Vienna Symphonic Library


Clusters have become a fixture in modern film scores. Especially low brass instruments are frequently deployed to create this sonic effect, so we decided to dedicate an entire volume of our Big Bang Orchestra series to exploring this technique. BBO: Izar includes all of the articulations of the...




www.vsl.co.at









JUPITER: Horns - Vienna Symphonic Library


During the last several years of recording big projects for film, games and commercials at Synchron Stage Vienna, our engineers have had extensive experience recording various horn ensemble sizes. Having identified a sweet spot of six double horns, that’s the ensemble size we chose for the...




www.vsl.co.at









KOPERNIKUS: Trumpets - Vienna Symphonic Library


As with all the brass libraries of our Big Bang Orchestra, the sound of this trumpet ensemble delivers the characteristic timbre you’re used to hearing in countless contemporary film scores. That’s why we recorded Bb trumpets with piston valves rather than instruments with rotary valves that are...




www.vsl.co.at





Enjoy and don't forget to purchase the libraries you like before the end of the month/introductory price!


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## jamwerks (Jun 16, 2020)

Woodwind ensembles coming (4 contrabassoons, 4 contrebass Clarinets)?


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## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2020)

Can't get the demo to load. It's downloaded but Synchron player doesn't see them. Any ideas?


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2020)

Have you installed them after download? After that please restart the host.


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## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2020)

Ben said:


> Have you installed them after download? After that please restart the host.


I was trying it in stand alone mode. It was also an all in one install the links they sent was a one click download install. They are in the same location as my other files, but synchron is t seeing them.


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## MrCambiata (Jun 17, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Can't get the demo to load. It's downloaded but Synchron player doesn't see them. Any ideas?


I had this problem with the Bösendorfer and had to install the latest version of the player.


----------



## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2020)

MrCambiata said:


> I had this problem with the Bösendorfer and had to install the latest version of the player.


I am up to date..checked. :(


----------



## mushanga (Jun 17, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I am up to date..checked. :(


Have you checked the Database tab in the Synchron player settings? Check that the volume scan paths are correct.

https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/synchron-player/database


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## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2020)

mushanga said:


> Have you checked the Database tab in the Synchron player settings? Check that the volume scan paths are correct.
> 
> https://www.vsl.info/en/manuals/synchron-player/database


yup, they are all there. just not showing up in the player.


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2020)

The folder names are the typical download folder names, not the ones that are created after installation. Please double check in the Vienna Manager if there is the install button still available.
You can also check the files in the folder: .x and .y files are the uninstaled download files and .vsynvolume are the unpacked/installed files:


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## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2020)

Ben said:


> The folder names are the typical download folder names, not the ones that are created after installation. Please double check in the Vienna Manager if there is the install button still available.
> You can also check the files in the folder: .x and .y files are the uninstaled download files and .vsynvolume are the unpacked/installed files:


Yes X -Y...I will check manager again. Thanks. I know I had to authorize them with serial number...thought they installed automatically.


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## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2020)

Ben said:


> The folder names are the typical download folder names, not the ones that are created after installation. Please double check in the Vienna Manager if there is the install button still available.
> You can also check the files in the folder: .x and .y files are the uninstaled download files and .vsynvolume are the unpacked/installed files:


I see the files still in manager. downloading now..thought I did that.. LOL Thanks for the help.


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## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2020)

With Ben's help, got them installed!


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## holywilly (Jun 17, 2020)

@Ben, thanks for the demo, the brass pack sound so amazing! I truly wish VSL also provide 30 days demo for both Synchron and VI products.


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## Ben (Jun 17, 2020)

@holywilly Great to hear you like it 
We are currently experimenting with providing demo versions. We have to pay for the download traffic, and some of the libraries are quite huge. For this reason we provided only demo versions for our software products until know.


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## Drumdude2112 (Jun 17, 2020)

BBO has been quite the 'gateway' for me into the vsl line...have all the bbo's and just picked up the 2 bosendorfer's.
Absolutely crazy about em ' , and the brass is just stellar..Becoming quite the monthly addiction now lol .Wake me in July lol ...(or give me just a little taste of whats coming )


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## holywilly (Jun 17, 2020)

I wish there is tenor trombone section in the series.


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## richhickey (Jun 17, 2020)

I'd feel better about buying the BBO brass if I knew I could get some credit for that when Synchron Brass comes out based (presumably) on some of the same samples. I don't feel like buying them twice.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jun 17, 2020)

richhickey said:


> I'd feel better about buying the BBO brass if I knew I could get some credit for that when Synchron Brass comes out based (presumably) on some of the same samples. I don't feel like buying them twice.



I would expect/hope that a Synchron Brass library would consist of 100% different samples, and I assume that it will be more of a "bread and butter" brass library with standard section sizes and solo instruments. VSL normally doesn't re-use samples for new sample libraries - only for "lite" versions of existing ones and "teaser" packs (VI "full" library --> "Special Edition" collections, Epic Orchestra etc.)


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## richhickey (Jun 17, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I would expect/hope that a Synchron Brass library would consist of 100% different samples, and I assume that it will be more of a "bread and butter" brass library with standard section sizes and solo instruments. VSL normally doesn't re-use samples for new sample libraries - only for "lite" versions of existing ones and "teaser" packs (VI "full" library --> "Special Edition" collections, Epic Orchestra etc.)



Heh. We're both speculating but I think it's much more likely that all of BBO is just them pointing someone at the samples they have been making for full Synchron products and cranking out something they can sell in the meantime since the full libs are such big productions. Pulling musicians in twice is pretty expensive. Like OT did with Inspire - culled from their big set.


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## jaketanner (Jun 17, 2020)

richhickey said:


> I think it's much more likely that all of BBO is just them pointing someone at the samples they have been making for full Synchron products and cranking out something they can sell in the meantime


Would expect a discount then if the sample sets are the same...not much of course, since BBO intro prices are cheap, but a little something....but I don't think it's gonna be any time soon: hope I'm wrong.


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## Supremo (Jun 18, 2020)

Well, I decided to pull the trigger just minutes after listening to a couple of BBO demos: been so much fascinated with the massive and noble brass sound. Ended up buying Hercules, Jupiter and Kopernikus libraries altogether. Here are my purely subjective observations after a couple hours of fiddling with all three patches:

PROS:
1) The number of articulations is really impressive and the Synchron player seems to be a very well-rounded plugin with no obvious shortcomings when compared to its newborn competitors from other sample library manufacturers.

2) The overall sound is very clean and mic choices are good enough to make further adjustments. I could hardly notice any audible artifacts in those libraries.

3) As you can easily adjust all reverb settings, these patches appear to blend very well with other brass libraries. I tried to blend them with Cinematic Studio Brass solo instruments, and the overall mix did sound really good to my ears. CSB is an awesome library in terms of scripting, consistency and playability but most of its instruments sound too forefront, harsh and thin - earbleeding - in higher registers. This is where CSB may be perfectly complemented by BBO, which has a more rounded sound, and I got a fantastic result from this particular blend.

CONS:
1) BBO instruments' legato is okay, although nothing can beat the smooth legato scripting of CSB. I also own JXL Brass and Century Brass but wasn't really impressed with either one's legato scripting (Century Brass is particularly awful when it comes to dynamics transitions, btw). 

Besides, too bad that BBO legato articulations lack a fortissimo range. You don't get an ff sound at the highest CC1 level. At least I didn't feel that it goes loud and buzzy all the way up. That said, other BBO articulations (e.g. swells) do have something close to a fortissimo sound so I just wonder why the same level of "buzziness" wasn't applied to the regular legato patch as well. That would make the legato art so much more playable if you could just push the CC1 fader to the maximum when you need a fortissimo ending for the phrase you play.

2) Short notes have too quick attack settings but fortunately, it may be adjusted in the EDIT section of the Synchron player. I myself have set them at 0.07 ms range but again, it is a matter of taste and personal preferences. 

Overall, I'm quite satisfied with these BBO libraries. I guess the next edition will be the Trombones section.


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## method1 (Jun 18, 2020)

RE: FF legato, are you sure about that? 
The leg patches go just as loud as any of the swells as far as I can hear, maybe not as brash as the szforzatissimo - are you using the velxf patches?


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## jaketanner (Jun 18, 2020)

Supremo said:


> Century Brass is particularly awful when it comes to dynamics transitions, btw


I have century and I’m no way are the dynamic transitions bad. In fact there is zero phasing between the layers and I find it ultra smooth. Which patch are you referring to?

also, the ff later in a legato I think is hard to do since the player will need to breathe before the ff note. So switching to a long articulation or swell isn’t that big a deal. I’d imagine that was their thought process. I think VSL in particular is pretty true to what a live player would do.


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## marco berco (Jun 18, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Thank you. I think I saw the tutorial already. Just wanna make sure that it will add something that my Century Brass doesn't. Although, I do like to have close to complete libraries from the same developers (if they're good)...in this case VSl seems to excellent in most everything.


They really are excellent in everything they do and since the SY-Player and the libraries which come along, it is now my workhorse.


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## marco berco (Jun 18, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I have century and I’m no way are the dynamic transitions bad. In fact there is zero phasing between the layers and I find it ultra smooth. Which patch are you referring to?
> 
> also, the ff later in a legato I think is hard to do since the player will need to breathe before the ff note. So switching to a long articulation or swell isn’t that big a deal. I’d imagine that was their thought process. I think VSL in particular is pretty true to what a live player would do.


Exactly, I confirm.


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## Supremo (Jun 18, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I have century and I’m no way are the dynamic transitions bad. In fact there is zero phasing between the layers and I find it ultra smooth. Which patch are you referring to?
> 
> also, the ff later in a legato I think is hard to do since the player will need to breathe before the ff note. So switching to a long articulation or swell isn’t that big a deal. I’d imagine that was their thought process. I think VSL in particular is pretty true to what a live player would do.



OK, it's an off-topic to discuss it here but let me show you a coupe of examples from Century Brass.
The first one is the Horns 6 chordal legato patch. You may notice that the same specific "farting" sound of the second note (C3) gets triggered on legato every time it is played from the highest modwheel level [127] down to somewhere at [46], where only it gets replaced by another sample, which in its turn remains the same all the way down to [1]. Having observed the same behaviour in various notes' legato transitions I came to the conclusion that Century Brass in fact consists only of TWO dynamic layers, which are crossfaded smoothly by a simple EQ filtering and volume adjustment. This explains why dynamic transitions have a few phasing issues in Century Brass: simply because in the whole "1 to 127" range there are only 2 of them.

For comparison, JXL Brass has 5 dynamic layers. CSB which is in the same price range has 4 layers. VSL BBO claims to have up to 5 layers. In the 8dio Century Brass page you won't find any info on the exact number of layers used.

You may agree that 2 layers are simply not enough for a brass library being sold at 400$, and mere EQ filtering won't add much realism to the instrument's legato performance.

The second audio file is the Trombones chordal legato patch. You can clearly hear that the same chord played in the middle CC1 range sounds louder than that in the highest range. Again, there are just two layers here, which get crossfaded but obviously the first layer that comes from the bottom up to the mid CC1 range gets its low mid frequency boosted and thus becomes noticeably louder than the second (higher) layer. Isn't it abnormal? Does it feel like real?


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## jamwerks (Jun 18, 2020)

I bet that VSL has planned what patches to do in BBO, and which in Synchron Brass. Surely there won't be overlap.

Probably Horn Solo & à2 in Synchron and à6 in BBO.


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## shawnsingh (Jun 18, 2020)

My guess is that the BBO series is a great way for them to prototype some of the post production (i.e. auto processing, sample splicing and editing, scripting adjustments, etc) they'd be doing for the full synchron libraries that are coming up.


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## jaketanner (Jun 18, 2020)

Supremo said:


> The first one is the Horns 6 chordal legato patch


You mean sustain right? there is no chordal patch unless you mean the non legato patch...in which case there are 4 dynamic layers...confirmed with 8dio.


Supremo said:


> You may agree that 2 layers are simply not enough for a brass library being sold at 400$


Absolutely agree...but not the case here though. However I paid nothing close to that...got mine at 50% off 

I do remember some volume issues where the softer dynamics actually are louder than the ff...yes that much I remember, but I still think there are more than 2 dynamics.


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## Supremo (Jun 19, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> You mean sustain right? there is no chordal patch unless you mean the non legato patch...in which case there are 4 dynamic layers...confirmed with 8dio.
> 
> Absolutely agree...but not the case here though. However I paid nothing close to that...got mine at 50% off
> 
> I do remember some volume issues where the softer dynamics actually are louder than the ff...yes that much I remember, but I still think there are more than 2 dynamics.



No, I'm talking about the polyphonic legato patches introduced in Century Brass 2.0. They are called "chordal legato".


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## jaketanner (Jun 19, 2020)

Ok. Gonna check mine. Would be strange to lessen dynamics though for a patch that has 4 dynamic layers already.


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## jaketanner (Jun 19, 2020)

Supremo said:


> No, I'm talking about the polyphonic legato patches introduced in Century Brass 2.0. They are called "chordal legato".


Took me a good minute to even find this patch..it's in the individual patches. And It seems to me, to have a t least 3 dynamic layers if not the 4 as mentioned. I hear a clear difference between the transitions from ff to pp. Have you checked to see if your controller matches what you see on screen in the GUI dynamic wheel? Maybe something is off, because there is a clear difference...also, certain notes may react differently because there is more air that's needed to hit certain notes...have you tried your test across all octaves? But definitely more than 2 layers for sure.


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## jaketanner (Jun 19, 2020)

Is it me, or does Jupiter not go full on growl at ff? Compared to Century Brass which has a really strong ff...Jupiter is quite mellow. It's not a complaint, because I do like the sound, but it's not as aggressive as it's made out to be.


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## Ben (Jun 19, 2020)

@jaketanner Have tried the processed mixer presets already?


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## jaketanner (Jun 19, 2020)

Ben said:


> @jaketanner Have tried the processed mixer presets already?


no, just the regular legato. I'll check


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## jaketanner (Jun 19, 2020)

Ben said:


> @jaketanner Have tried the processed mixer presets already?


This just adds processing...why would I want that? LOL I do not compress or add any phaser FX to my brass. So there are no growl ff recorded? Again, not necessarily a bad thing, but then I don't think it should list ff as a dynamic layer when it's not really there.


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## Ben (Jun 19, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> why would I want that?


Compression is one of the most used effects, especially when you need more pressure in the brass sections.


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## jaketanner (Jun 19, 2020)

Ben said:


> Compression is one of the most used effects, especially when you need more pressure in the brass sections.


But that's not a true ff...that's my point. there is no growl at ff in the horns. I don't use it often at all, so for me not too much of an issue, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. But I will never use any processed patch. In fact, I would suggest that VSL make a "raw" patch available. No reverb, no EQ, no processing and only the main mic as a starting point. Saves the trouble of having to take everything off. 

Not a deal breaker of course, just a suggestion to give us options for a natural sound instead of one that has processing on it already.


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## JEPA (Jun 19, 2020)

Hello dear community, here I have composed another demo for the BBO Brass Packs, featuring Jupiter and Kopernikus mainly:


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## Ben (Jun 20, 2020)

If you already bought the Brass Packs and win you will get vouchers instead


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## dcoscina (Jun 20, 2020)

Downloaded the demos. I like Hercules quite a bit. Jupiter is nice too. I might jump in and buy Hercules. I dig low brass and anyone who knows me knows why


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## holywilly (Jun 20, 2020)

Jupiter + dimension brass, I’m in heaven!


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## Symfoniq (Jun 20, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> Downloaded the demos. I like Hercules quite a bit. Jupiter is nice too. I might jump in and buy Hercules. I dig low brass and anyone who knows me knows why



Based on my time with the demos so far, I think Hercules is the strongest of these libraries (no pun intended). All of the articulations sound very good.


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## jaketanner (Jun 20, 2020)

I think VSL should just make a BBO brass pack that includes all three sections. They already have the separated sections, but for those of us that want to use all three, it's nicer to have them be in ONE GUI so that we can create our own stacks and brass blends.


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## AndyP (Jun 20, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I think VSL should just make a BBO brass pack that includes all three sections. They already have the separated sections, but for those of us that want to use all three, it's nicer to have them be in ONE GUI so that we can create our own stacks and brass blends.


You can do this in the Synchron Player. You can do this with all libraries that work with the Synchron Player.


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## jaketanner (Jun 20, 2020)

AndyP said:


> You can do this in the Synchron Player. You can do this with all libraries that work with the Synchron Player.


Ah right..ok got it...I was thinking that I would need one instance of each, but the player does house ALL libraries from VSL. Forgot..thanks.


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## Ben (Jun 20, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> I think VSL should just make a BBO brass pack that includes all three sections. They already have the separated sections, but for those of us that want to use all three, it's nicer to have them be in ONE GUI so that we can create our own stacks and brass blends.


It's quite easy to do it yourself (takes some time, but it's then fully customized to your needs). Here a short walkthrough:

1. Load the Low Brass preset
2. Click on the "+" to add a layer in the tree:




3. Drag and Drop the articulations of the other libraries beneeth the Low-Brass one.
Then change the keyswitch to none and enable parallel mode




4. For each of the three slots change the Parallel Mode to "Mix"
Adjust the octave settings for each slot if you want.




5. If you want to see the range of the articulations click this button (this also allows you to extend the range of the instruments up and down up to an octave.




6. You may have to adjust the location of the keyswitches


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## Ben (Jun 20, 2020)

By the way: Izar comes with a super handy Hercules-Izar crossfade preset:





This allows you to crossfade between the normal and cluster sound via CC3


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## dcoscina (Jun 20, 2020)

Symfoniq said:


> Based on my time with the demos so far, I think Hercules is the strongest of these libraries (no pun intended). All of the articulations sound very good.


Yes I find Jupiter a bit tame as far as its dynamic range. I was hoping for more brass buzziness at fff levels like Hercules can achieve


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## jaketanner (Jun 20, 2020)

Ben said:


> It's quite easy to do it yourself (takes some time, but it's then fully customized to your needs). Here a short walkthrough:
> 
> 1. Load the Low Brass preset
> 2. Click on the "+" to add a layer in the tree:
> ...


Thanks is Ben.


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## Ben (Jun 20, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> Yes I find Jupiter a bit tame as far as its dynamic range. I was hoping for more brass buzziness at fff levels like Hercules can achieve


The dynamic and short articulations are more brassy. If you need this aggressive sound, try stacking these with the longs.


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## AndyP (Jun 20, 2020)

I'm working on the Final Hour title, but with time sync my macbook is breaking down.
The cpu load of the time sync feature is quite heavy.
I'll switch to my other setup tomorrow, I won't get far with a Macbook Pro 2013.
This is a feature that VSL can optimize in the sync player.
And there are only 12 tracks... in total with only one time sync track.

Even though I only use time sync at one point in the track, it seems to call up the processing power in the background. Before I used it it was running quite smooth, especially in the places where I do not use the time sync track.

The sound with some external effects is very appealing, but to make the track I'm missing some elements that BBO doesn't have yet (Stings, piano or celeste - melodic elements - kling-klang elements). Unfortunately we are not allowed to use other VSL libraries.

Anyway, it's a challenge to make a track with limited resources. I focus on what I have from BBO, but I had a hard time at the beginning, especially since I didn't buy all BBO libraries.

I don't know if the track will be finished in time, but it's fun.


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## Ben (Jun 20, 2020)

Timestretching is really demanding, we had to choose between quality or performance. I hope we can revisit this feature in near future and optimizing it. 
For now I would suggest to use only the room mix for the synced part during composing, and after that using your mic mix.


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## marco berco (Jun 21, 2020)

holywilly said:


> Jupiter + dimension brass, I’m in heaven!


Me too, and if VSL release a new Synchron Brass I am pretty sure I will be over the heaven !


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## marco berco (Jun 21, 2020)

Ben said:


> Timestretching is really demanding, we had to choose between quality or performance. I hope we can revisit this feature in near future and optimizing it.
> For now I would suggest to use only the room mix for the synced part during composing, and after that using your mic mix.


Great idea indeed, it will save a lot of RAM and CPU during the composing process. Thanks Ben.


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## ptram (Jun 21, 2020)

Ben said:


> Timestretching is really demanding, we had to choose between quality or performance.


At the moment I’m not focusing, but: can the Synchron Player, like Vienna Intruments Pro, freeze a time stretched patch? Or is it alway live and dynamic, and following the current tempo? I would say that switching the Sync Tempo option off should freeze the stretch to the current situation.

Paolo


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## Ben (Jun 21, 2020)

You can disable the tempo-sync and set stretching to a constant value. Anyways it will not be calculating the stretching into the samples, resulting in a similar load. In this case I suggest to use a seperat instance for the stretched parts and freeze these in your DAW.


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## ptram (Jun 21, 2020)

Ben said:


> Anyways it will not be calculating the stretching into the samples, resulting in a similar load.


If I can add this as a feature request, I would find a 'freeze' function in a Synchron Player very useful. Find the right stretch, then send it to a custom patch cell. Often, this is all one needs from time stretch. Having it in the Player would be handier than as a separate track.

Paolo


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## Ben (Jun 21, 2020)

ptram said:


> If I can add this as a feature request, I would find a 'freeze' function in a Synchron Player very useful.


I don't think something like this will happen anytime soon. The amount of data that must be stored for this to work is just too huge for multi-mic libraries.
But as I said, revisiting time-stretching and finding a better solution for real-time processing is still on our wish-list.


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## jaketanner (Jun 21, 2020)

Can I ask for what purpose are you guys stretching the samples? Maybe I am missing something useful here ..


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## JEPA (Jun 21, 2020)

jaketanner said:


> Can I ask for what purpose are you guys stretching the samples? Maybe I am missing something useful here ..


Hello, I have used the stretch function to adjust the timing of swells for example to the BPM of the piece


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## Ben (Jun 21, 2020)

Tempo Syncing of riffs, patterns and runs, changing the vibrato or falls and rips, or simply for special effects. 
Make shorts even shorter or pizz even longer.


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## jaketanner (Jun 21, 2020)

JEPA said:


> Hello, I have used the stretch function to adjust the timing of swells for example to the BPM of the piece


Ah ok. Makes sense then. Thanks.


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## JEPA (Jun 29, 2020)

Hello all together! Here is the screencast of "Guardians of the Earth". In this video I want to show how powerful are Jupiter and Kopernikus for leading melodies and the use of their articulations!


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## Ben (Jul 14, 2020)

Reminder: Last day of the introductory sale and free demo licenses for the BBO Brass packs!
If not done yet you should check out these brass libraries


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## doctoremmet (Jul 14, 2020)

JEPA said:


> Hello all together! Here is the screencast of "Guardians of the Earth". In this video I want to show how powerful are Jupiter and Kopernikus for leading melodies and the use of their articulations!



Nice. I wasn’t aware of you doing demos like this! Do you have more of these types of videos?

Edit: typo


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## JEPA (Jul 14, 2020)

doctoremmet said:


> Nice. I wasn’t aware of you doing demos like this! Do you have more of these types of videos?
> 
> Edit: typo


these ones, with the permission from @Ben for posting here:

BBO Ganymede Trailer/Walkthrough



---

BBO Brass Packs Waklthrough



---

BBO Brass Packs Trailers






...and the Screencast you already saw!


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## doctoremmet (Jul 14, 2020)

JEPA said:


> these ones, with the permission from @Ben for posting here:
> 
> BBO Ganymede Trailer/Walkthrough
> 
> ...



Awesome!


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## JEPA (Jul 14, 2020)

If you don't have these Brass Packs get 'em as soon as you can. They are really impressive. In the other thread where @jononotbono was asking for advice regarding a brass patch of another library I have heard the examples posted there and played for me the same melodies using low brass *BBO Hercules *and I can say sincerely these VSL BBO Brass Packs are winner libraries.


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## holywilly (Jul 14, 2020)

The brass pack is the best BBO library ever! I really love the sound from the beautiful Synchron stage, BRAVO!


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## jaketanner (Jul 14, 2020)

JEPA said:


> If you don't have these Brass Packs get 'em as soon as you can. They are really impressive. In the other thread where @jononotbono was asking for advice regarding a brass patch of another library I have heard the examples posted there and played for me the same melodies using low brass *BBO Hercules *and I can say sincerely these VSL BBO Brass Packs are winner libraries.


They are fantastic and for the intro price an absolute steal. They can easily be your main brass in most cases.


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jul 14, 2020)

I will be trying out the demos tonight (the demos sound good), but meanwhile could someone please tell me how good do these BBO libraries perform fast short note passages? (including their lyra and musca libraries). Thanks!


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## JEPA (Jul 14, 2020)

Rasoul Morteza said:


> I will be trying out the demos tonight (the demos sound good), but meanwhile could someone please tell me how good do these BBO libraries perform fast short note passages? (including their lyra and musca libraries). Thanks!


They perform amazing, look at the Hercules trailer walkthrough, I am using low brass shorts for the corpus of the piece.


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## Ben (Jul 14, 2020)

Rasoul Morteza said:


> I will be trying out the demos tonight (the demos sound good), but meanwhile could someone please tell me how good do these BBO libraries perform fast short note passages? (including their lyra and musca libraries). Thanks!


Make sure to select the Shorts -> Agile. These are optimized for ostinatos and runs


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## Rasoul Morteza (Jul 14, 2020)

@JEPA @Ben Thanks, will try it shortly!


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## sostenuto (Jul 14, 2020)

Ben said:


> Make sure to select the Shorts -> Agile. These are optimized for ostinatos and runs



If Demos initiated today, price is higher to purchase later in Demo ?


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## Ben (Jul 14, 2020)

sostenuto said:


> If Demos initiated today, price is higher to purchase later in Demo ?


Not sure if I get the question...
Sale on the Brass Packs ends in a few hours and with it the possibility to download a demo license of them.
Introductory prices for BBO Strings stay the same, but you will be able to download a 30 days demo.


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## Rubens Tubenchlak (Oct 14, 2020)

holywilly said:


> Jupiter + dimension brass, I’m in heaven!


Hey holywilly, how are you?
I wonder how you combine SY brass with the BBO trumpets and horns. You also makes 4x4 jupiter trumpets and 4x4 kopernikus horns to divisi lines?

Rubens


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