# Library music and writing what you want to write



## dexterjettser (Jan 12, 2019)

Hi all (especially those of you that make your full income from library/production music), 

I’m college-aged and new to the library music scene. I’ve been writing trailer music for a small library for about 6 months and although I haven’t gotten any placements yet, I’m starting to get a little burnt out writing in this genre, although I’m learning a ton from my publisher. I love trailer music and do want to keep getting better at it, BUT I’d like to branch out and compose something beyond braams and epic drum hits to keep myself sane. 

I am interested in contemporary orchestral and neo-classical music. Stuff like olafur arnaulds, johan johansson, any Andy Blaney SF demo, etc. If I could compose music like that for libraries I would really enjoy it, but I’m not sure how much use my tracks would get. Perhaps music you’d find in nature documentary or something. I’m not sure. 

My question is basically, could someone make a full time income writing library music in sort of a niche style such as neo-classical? I’m fairly new to all of this so I figured I’d reach out. Many thanks


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## muk (Jan 13, 2019)

Hard to say, but probably yes, if you find the right publishers to work with. I would suggest to do what you really like. Write a few tracks in that style, and then do the research and try to find publishers for these. If you can build a nice working relationship with some publishers, and they get placements for your tracks, you can then develop concepts for albums in a style that a) you really like to write in and are good at, and b) they think they can place well. It's important to write in styles you like or eventually you'll just stop. On the other hand don't get obsessed with doing just one particular style and nothing else. Right now you're experiencing what happens if you do that for too long. Focusing on your favourite stlye is the right thing to start with, just be open to try slightly different things as well.


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## dannymc (Jan 13, 2019)

muk said:


> Hard to say, but probably yes, if you find the right publishers to work with. I would suggest to do what you really like. Write a few tracks in that style, and then do the research and try to find publishers for these. If you can build a nice working relationship with some publishers, and they get placements for your tracks, you can then develop concepts for albums in a style that a) you really like to write in and are good at, and b) they think they can place well. It's important to write in styles you like or eventually you'll just stop. On the other hand don't get obsessed with doing just one particular style and nothing else. Right now you're experiencing what happens if you do that for too long. Focusing on your favourite stlye is the right thing to start with, just be open to try slightly different things as well.



great advice here. 

Danny


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 13, 2019)

I´m in a similar position. I honestly wasn't´t very attracted to work for the production music sector before, but meanwhile I have a lot of (orchestral) music just wasting on my hard disc, which is quite silly too. So I would like to give it a try, but I don´t know which would be the right publisher to get in contact with. When I do researches, I mostly find trailer stuff, epic and more epic music and I´m pretty unsure which company would be the right one for my typ of music. I don´t need to make an exclusive income out of it, but I don´t want a company, that doesn't´t care about and just put it in their stock either.
Which publisher could you recommend for the kind of music "dexterjettser" describes ?


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## muk (Jan 13, 2019)

@Heinigoldstein if you've mostlyfound trailer and epic libraries so far you haven't researched enoigh. Nobody can tell you which libraries will work for because we haven't heard your music, and because building relationships plays a role in whether a library will be succesful for you.

Some pointers for your research: first of all read up about exclusive vs non-exclusive libraries. Make sure you fully understand the difference, and decide which route you want to take (one or the other, or both). Google 'production music libraries'. Go to music library report and gather the info that is free (you can pay a subscription to gain full access, but in my opinion it is not necessary). 
Go to PMA and check which libraries are members: voila, a huge list of production music libraries for you to investigate. A member called 'Desire Inspire' posted another huge list of libraries on gearslutz and on this forum as well.
After that you might be interested in researching the term 'sub-publisher'.

If you've done all that things should be a lot clearer for you. If there are open questions for you then still (and I guess there will be), I'm sure you can find more help on this forum. You can also send me a pm then if you want to. I'm not the most knowledgeable person about production music, nor am I the most succesful writer by a long stretch. But I am happy to help and share the experiences I gathered so far.


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## Aaron Sapp (Jan 13, 2019)

Full-time income off neo-classical? I'd wager you'd need hundreds of tracks in that style to see a proper return since the usage would be more limited than something more modern.

It depends on what your goals are. If you want to strictly write what you want (neo-classical), you might have a tougher time with returns. If you want to make a living writing library music, I'd focus on stuff that's more stylistically-relevant, editorially-sound, attention-getting and dare I say it, unique.

Whenever I'm working on a track, I usually have an idea of what it could be used for. If you can imagine it being used for this, this and this, you're in a good place. If you can only see it being used for nature documentaries, then the returns will be limited.

I'll also play it against a bunch of television promos/trailers on YouTube and see how it feels dramatically. It's surprisingly informative, right down to specific elements in a track that work/don't work with/against picture. 

With all that said, a certain fascination with a variety of genres has to exist. I love everything from Williams, Stravinsky, Shostakovitch and Copeland to Flume, Apparat, Muse, Gorillaz, Alt-J, etc. They all feed into what I write, which can so very rarely be straight.

So I'd try to figure out how to take the styles of music you love and format it in a compelling, useful way. Even after 14 years of writing production music, I find it absurdly difficult.


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## dexterjettser (Jan 13, 2019)

muk said:


> Hard to say, but probably yes, if you find the right publishers to work with. I would suggest to do what you really like. Write a few tracks in that style, and then do the research and try to find publishers for these. If you can build a nice working relationship with some publishers, and they get placements for your tracks, you can then develop concepts for albums in a style that a) you really like to write in and are good at, and b) they think they can place well. It's important to write in styles you like or eventually you'll just stop. On the other hand don't get obsessed with doing just one particular style and nothing else. Right now you're experiencing what happens if you do that for too long. Focusing on your favourite stlye is the right thing to start with, just be open to try slightly different things as well.


Yeah I agree. I talked a little bit with my current publisher and they're open to me writing more traditional instrumentation orchestral stuff. I'm sure the same thing would happen in 6 months if I only wrote 'neo-classical' cues. Right now I definitely would like to find 1-2 more libraries that specialize in that sort of music. I also agree with what else has been said that I might not see a proper return if that's all I'm writing. But then again I feel like dramatic piano and strings could get decent placements. Or if I could write anything like Bill Brown's Dreamstate I'd love to. A lot of what I'm listing is sort of all over the place haha, but hopefully you all get the idea of what I'd be interested in writing for libraries.


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## dexterjettser (Jan 13, 2019)

Aaron Sapp said:


> Full-time income off neo-classical? I'd wager you'd need hundreds of tracks in that style to see a proper return since the usage would be more limited than something more modern.
> 
> It depends on what your goals are. If you want to strictly write what you want (neo-classical), you might have a tougher time with returns. If you want to make a living writing library music, I'd focus on stuff that's more stylistically-relevant, editorially-sound, attention-getting and dare I say it, unique.
> 
> ...


Just curious, as you've been doing this sort of thing for a while. What genre do you find yourself writing most in, and do you enjoy writing that genre? 

I'd say my ultimate goal is to write in the style I want to write (dramatic, neo-classical, orchestral, and also trailers/hybrid to a degree) and make a full time income in about 4-5 years.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 13, 2019)

muk said:


> @Heinigoldstein if you've mostlyfound trailer and epic libraries so far you haven't researched enoigh. Nobody can tell you which libraries will work for because we haven't heard your music, and because building relationships plays a role in whether a library will be succesful for you.
> 
> Some pointers for your research: first of all read up about exclusive vs non-exclusive libraries. Make sure you fully understand the difference, and decide which route you want to take (one or the other, or both). Google 'production music libraries'. Go to music library report and gather the info that is free (you can pay a subscription to gain full access, but in my opinion it is not necessary).
> Go to PMA and check which libraries are members: voila, a huge list of production music libraries for you to investigate. A member called 'Desire Inspire' posted another huge list of libraries on gearslutz and on this forum as well.
> ...


Thanks a lot for your reply and, of course, your right, my research was probably too poor and lazy. I'll take myself a lot more time with your keywords and google my way thru the sites you mention d as a starting point. I really appreachiate yout offer.


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## dexterjettser (Jan 13, 2019)

Heinigoldstein said:


> I´m in a similar position. I honestly wasn't´t very attracted to work for the production music sector before, but meanwhile I have a lot of (orchestral) music just wasting on my hard disc, which is quite silly too. So I would like to give it a try, but I don´t know which would be the right publisher to get in contact with. When I do researches, I mostly find trailer stuff, epic and more epic music and I´m pretty unsure which company would be the right one for my typ of music. I don´t need to make an exclusive income out of it, but I don´t want a company, that doesn't´t care about and just put it in their stock either.
> Which publisher could you recommend for the kind of music "dexterjettser" describes ?


If I find a few libraries that are like this I'll let you know! I've found the music I want to write on websites like pond5 and artlist-though I want to avoid those sites. I'm slowly going through this giant list that was posted on gearslutz.


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## Mr. Edinburgh (Jan 13, 2019)

the library music game is saturated with literally tens of millions of works now - and the competition is *huge* - some of the biggest names in the pop, rock and film music biz also do library music - and so your material has to stand next to the production quality of this.


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## Heinigoldstein (Jan 13, 2019)

dexterjettser said:


> If I find a few libraries that are like this I'll let you know! I've found the music I want to write on websites like pond5 and artlist-though I want to avoid those sites. I'm slowly going through this giant list that was posted on gearslutz.


Thanks a lot !


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## Daryl (Jan 13, 2019)

It also makes a difference whether or not you write for samples, or musicians. If samples, you have to make sure that you can really sequence what you write as well as possible. There is a reason that many sample based composers sound sort of the same. They all use the same samples, which have the same flaws...! Make sure that whatever you do, there is something about your productions that make you stand out.


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## JohnG (Jan 13, 2019)

Daryl said:


> Make sure that whatever you do, there is something about your productions that make you stand out.



My "signature sound" features a prominent 60 cycle hum. People always respond to that.


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## ed buller (Jan 14, 2019)

JohnG said:


> My "signature sound" features a prominent 60 cycle hum. People always respond to that.


yup my game increased by 10 when I moved to the US......gotta love that hum

e


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## D Halgren (Jan 14, 2019)

JohnG said:


> My "signature sound" features a prominent 60 cycle hum. People always respond to that.


Don't give away all your secrets, John.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 18, 2019)

Aaron Sapp said:


> Full-time income off neo-classical? I'd wager you'd need hundreds of tracks in that style to see a proper return since the usage would be more limited than something more modern.



My thoughts exactly. 

@dexterjettser what are you considering as "full time income"? $10K per year? 30K? 100K?


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 18, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> @dexterjettser what are you considering as "full time income"? $10K per year? 30K? 100K?


Minimum wage income in the US to me would be around $5000/month...


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## will_m (Jan 18, 2019)

dexterjettser said:


> My question is basically, could someone make a full time income writing library music in sort of a niche style such as neo-classical? I’m fairly new to all of this so I figured I’d reach out. Many thanks



I think a full time income from one style in library music is a big ask, not impossible but it'd certainly take some work and time to get there.

In regards to looking for libraries that cater to your style some will post post on their website when they have a brief for an album. Most exclusive libraries work on an album basis and the royalty free type sites (AJ pond5 etc) tend to be more single track.

I believe when a library puts an album together it is often based on searches from their clients, so if clients are asking and searching for music that sounds like Sigur Ros (for example) the library will compile a brief and ask composers to write and produce in that style, which they then package as an album, usually with artwork and titles that suggest the artist or genre that had been requested.

You can of course create the work first and then approach libraries saying 'hey I've got this cool sounding minimal piano and strings album in the style of such and such'.


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## D Halgren (Jan 18, 2019)

dohm said:


> You are crazy! That is $60k per year. Not even a delusional socialist country could maintain that. You would have unbelievable unemployment and small businesses would shut their doors by the droves. I can hire very good new engineering (mechanical, electrical, software), physics, math grads (with BS degree and intern experience) for 60-75k per year. There is a big difference between that job and a minimum wage job. Btw, if a person learns a skill or trade with demand then $5k+ per month is very realistic.
> 
> If i missed that this is a joke...then joke is on me. Apologies.


I believe he is saying that he would need to make a minimum of 5k a month to survive.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 18, 2019)

dohm said:


> You are crazy! That is $60k per year. Not even a delusional socialist country could maintain that. You would have unbelievable unemployment and small businesses would shut their doors by the droves. I can hire very good new engineering (mechanical, electrical, software), physics, math grads (with BS degree and intern experience) for 60-75k per year. There is a big difference between that job and a minimum wage job. Btw, if a person learns a skill or trade with demand then $5k+ per month is very realistic.
> 
> If i missed that this is a joke...then joke is on me. Apologies.


I meant it in the context that to survive in the US meaning rent/mortgage, buy a car, good food, health coverage etc., that's the minimum you will need per household to get by...


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## stevebarden (Jan 18, 2019)

Since a majority of production music is used for television - especially Reality TV - I would suggest researching shows that use the kind of music you are interested in writing. The end credits typically list which production music library supplies the music for that show. These are the ones you can target to include your tracks.


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## dohm (Jan 18, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> I meant it in the context that to survive in the US meaning rent/mortgage, buy a car, good food, health coverage etc., that's the minimum you will need per household to get by...



Got it. Sorry about missing the context. I misunderstood.

I agree with you on the $ number in that context.

Hopefully, the return on work in music (libraries, etc.) will keep up with inflation and rising costs.


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## Aaron Sapp (Jan 18, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> I meant it in the context that to survive in the US meaning rent/mortgage, buy a car, good food, health coverage etc., that's the minimum you will need per household to get by...



$5k a month is an exceptionally-comfortable living by most standards. Certainly far beyond what you'd need to "get by" in most places. Even in LA I got by with around $2k a month when I first moved out there. Just had to live without a stove/oven, washer/dryer, sleep on the floor with five noisy PC's with no air conditioning in the middle of summer. Good food? Pfffft. Health coverage? Pfffft. 

If you can live without the usual creature comforts, surviving off music is pretty feasible for many. It also focuses your work like nothing else. Think everyone should go through that rite of passage where your rent payment is contingent on whether or not you finish your track(s) by tomorrow.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 18, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> I meant it in the context that to survive in the US meaning rent/mortgage, buy a car, good food, health coverage etc., that's the minimum you will need per household to get by...



Shit, is the US gotten THAT bad? That's a very high income needed to "get by". It's crazy expensive to live here in Calgary, but if one is bringing home $5k per month here, they're doing quite well. And not to sound like a dark cloud here, but for someone new to the library game, earning $60k usd per year probably has the same odds as winning the Power Ball.


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## D Halgren (Jan 18, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Shit, is the US gotten THAT bad? That's a very high income needed to "get by". It's crazy expensive to live here in Calgary, but if one is bringing home $5k per month here, they're doing quite well. And not to sound like a dark cloud here, but for someone new to the library game, earning $60k usd per year probably has the same odds as winning the Power Ball.


Well, I pay $1,100 a month for healthcare, for a family of 3, and that's middle of the road insurance. How about you?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 18, 2019)

D Halgren said:


> Well, I pay $1,100 a month for healthcare, for a family of 3, and that's middle of the road insurance. How about you?



Well, you got me there. In Canada we have no healthcare premiums. Let's say, for example, you need major surgery in Canada....it's all covered 100%. The only things that aren't covered are things like dental and prescriptions, but this can easily be paid for under an extended plan that costs around $60 per person. Most full time employers provide these benefits in Alberta.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 18, 2019)

I'm totally out of the loop with this stuff. "Writing for libraries" - how does that even work? You sit in your house somewhere like a hermit and write an endless stream of some hypothetical media music, day in, day out, never talking to anyone, and upload it to some place and hope to make some money off of all that a few years down the road? Is that what people do? It can't be just that, right?


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## Chr!s (Jan 18, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm totally out of the loop with this stuff. "Writing for libraries" - how does that even work? You sit in your house somewhere like a hermit and write an endless stream of some hypothetical media music, day in, day out, never talking to anyone, and upload it to some place and hope to make some money off of all that a few years down the road? Is that what people do? It can't be just that, right?



I think so.

Personally, I think guys like Antti Martikainen have the right idea with this stuff.

He just writes albums of instrumental music the way he likes and then licenses them out via his website to anyone who wants to use them in their projects rather than specifically writing for companies. Given his youtube following and credits on his website, I gather it's working out.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 18, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> I think so.
> 
> Personally, I think guys like Antti Martikainen have the right idea with this stuff.
> 
> He just writes albums of instrumental music the way he likes and then licenses them out via his website to anyone who wants to use them in their projects rather than specifically writing for companies. Given his youtube following and credits on his website, I gather it's working out.



I gotta admire the persistency and steadiness. It just seems like such a shot in the dark. I don't think I could just produce piece after piece after piece without, you know - having a clear goal and someone saying: we need such-and-such for this and that. I wonder how he does it. Maybe he's just absolutely crazy about writing music?


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## StevenMcDonald (Jan 18, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm totally out of the loop with this stuff. "Writing for libraries" - how does that even work? You sit in your house somewhere like a hermit and write an endless stream of some hypothetical media music, day in, day out, never talking to anyone, and upload it to some place and hope to make some money off of all that a few years down the road? Is that what people do? It can't be just that, right?



That's kind of the worst case scenario, or looking at it in a very pessimistic way. It definitely can take years to get rolling, but ideally you'll live a balanced life and have a good relationship with one or more publishers who tell you what music is needed, and are very active at shopping it around. Maybe even getting paid up front per track!


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## D Halgren (Jan 18, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Well, you got me there. In Canada we have no healthcare premiums. Let's say, for example, you need major surgery in Canada....it's all covered 100%. The only things that aren't covered are things like dental and prescriptions, but this can easily be paid for under an extended plan that costs around $60 per person. Most full time employers provide these benefits in Alberta.


I know, that was kind of my point. I need to become Canadian Vancouver is only 6 hours from me, eh!


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 18, 2019)

dexterjettser said:


> My question is basically, could someone make a full time income writing library music in sort of a niche style such as neo-classical?



In short, no.

Don't try to do that style of music for music libraries. They aren't going to specialize in it and get you enough paying work to support you. A style like that would be good if you were hired by a company and got paid a salary to do that kind of work. If that is what you truly want to do, find someone who needs that kind of music and who has a budget. It won't be easy but it is definitely possible.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 18, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm totally out of the loop with this stuff. "Writing for libraries" - how does that even work? You sit in your house somewhere like a hermit and write an endless stream of some hypothetical media music, day in, day out, never talking to anyone, and upload it to some place and hope to make some money off of all that a few years down the road? Is that what people do? It can't be just that, right?



That is what some people do. Sad indeed.

I wanted to do that at some point, but that sounds very dull after a while. Not to mention the fact that my royalties are shrinking like nobody's business!

I need to be out there interacting with people and socializing. I could not write music for music libraries full time unless I was in prison. The isolation would drive me nuts.


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## Chr!s (Jan 18, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> I could not write music for music libraries full time unless I was in prison. The isolation would drive me nuts.



I can't remember if it was you or Jimmy I'd talked about this in another thread some months ago.

I think about all the hours I've spent locked away in a room with a computer and keyboard and what I could've been doing instead. This past summer, I had more fun just going out and doing stuff with family and friends. I went to medieval faires, horseback riding, fishing, hiking trips, etc. and I could barely bring myself to write any music.

Years ago, I could sit there from sun up until sundown. Now, I'll spend like 2 weeks or more on 2 minutes of music.


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## muk (Jan 19, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm totally out of the loop with this stuff. "Writing for libraries" - how does that even work? You sit in your house somewhere like a hermit and write an endless stream of some hypothetical media music, day in, day out, never talking to anyone, and upload it to some place and hope to make some money off of all that a few years down the road? Is that what people do? It can't be just that, right?



That's how I imagine uploading to royalty-free libraries can be like. It's quite a bit different when working with exclusive libraries. Then you'll work together with A&R-people, developing concepts for new albums, discussing tracks and how to improve them etc. Building good working relationships plays an important part. It also involves contacting libraries you'd like to work with, following up, frequently being turned down or not hearing back. But if you are in with a good library it can be very rewarding. 

You can write the music that you want to write. You can work at your own pace - no crazy deadlines. It takes time to build a steady stream of income, but if you stop writing music the tracks that you have out there will still generate money for some time. The libraries take care of the admin work (titling, meta-tagging, registering tracks with a pro, artwork), and will promote your tracks, so you can focus on writing music.

It's certainly not for everyone. But for me it is a very nice way to create some income from writing music. It gives you a lot of freedom, both creatively and in terms of workload. It's work that easily integrates with other jobs because you get to choose when and how much you work at any time. And, apart from generating royalties, seeing placements for your music can be highly motivating.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 19, 2019)

muk said:


> That's how I imagine uploading to royalty-free libraries can be like. It's quite a bit different when working with exclusive libraries. Then you'll work together with A&R-people, developing concepts for new albums, discussing tracks and how to improve them etc. Building good working relationships plays an important part. It also involves contacting libraries you'd like to work with, following up, frequently being turned down or not hearing back. But if you are in with a good library it can be very rewarding.
> 
> You can write the music that you want to write. You can work at your own pace - no crazy deadlines. It takes time to build a steady stream of income, but if you stop writing music the tracks that you have out there will still generate money for some time. The libraries take care of the admin work (titling, meta-tagging, registering tracks with a pro, artwork), and will promote your tracks, so you can focus on writing music.
> 
> It's certainly not for everyone. But for me it is a very nice way to create some income from writing music. It gives you a lot of freedom, both creatively and in terms of workload. It's work that easily integrates with other jobs because you get to choose when and how much you work at any time. And, apart from generating royalties, seeing placements for your music can be highly motivating.



So what city do I need to move to in order to work with these sort of companies?


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## muk (Jan 19, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> So what city do I need to move to in order to work with these sort of companies?



What are you trying to achieve with your mock naivete? To piss off people who are trying to help?


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## GtrString (Jan 19, 2019)

The music library market is getting waay too saturated, so call me a sceptic, but as I see it, only as part of an income portfolio. Even after 5 years, you would be lucky to land 20-30% of those 5k.

As you are still young, it would make much more sense to start a band, self-publish, play a ton of shows, tour and create a network, and then use your name to consolidate as you grow older.


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## dexterjettser (Jan 19, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> @dexterjettser what are you considering as "full time income"? $10K per year? 30K? 100K?


I mean 100k would be great, but I could make 30k work. Anything above minimum wage would be ideal haha.


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## Chr!s (Jan 19, 2019)

dexterjettser said:


> I mean 100k would be great, but I could make 30k work. Anything above minimum wage would be ideal haha.



My honest opinion is that making 5-digit salaries with music today is largely a fool's errand. 

Yes, yes — this is the part where all the rich kids, shot-in-the-dark YouTube stars, and old guys who got their careers off the ground in 1974 when a McDonald's employee on minimum wage made the modern equivalent of 80k a year and nothing on the menu cost more than a buck will tell me I'm wrong, just need to work harder, etc.

Get it out of your system guys.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 19, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> My honest opinion is that making 5-digit salaries with music today is largely a fool's errand.
> 
> Yes, yes — this is the part where all the rich kids, shot-in-the-dark YouTube stars, and old guys who got their careers off the ground in 1974 when a McDonald's employee on minimum wage made the modern equivalent of 80k a year and nothing on the menu cost more than a buck will tell me I'm wrong, just need to work harder, etc.
> 
> Get it out of your system guys.


You don't need to work harder you need to drop the scarcasm and see the opportunities that exist as no time in history. You're arguing for your limitations, but yes, it's not business as usual, more like surfing...


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## Chr!s (Jan 19, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> You don't need to work harder you need to drop the scarcasm and see the opportunities that exist as no time in history. You're arguing for your limitations, but yes, it's not business as usual, more like surfing...



That took no time at all.

The "opportunities" you speak of are saturated, more than any other time in history.

You may as well have said: "You just need the right attitude." That doesn't get you jobs, that doesn't pay bills, that's doesn't allow you to raise a family, etc. Never has, never will. The reality of it is, the opportunities one is likely to land will be insufficient for the majority of people to live on. It will be increasingly insufficient for the foreseeable future.

That's just the truth. The real advice, is just don't worry about it. Just write music, write music for people where the opportunity presents itself and if you never make 100k a year at it, know that there was really nothing you could've done to make that happen anyway.

These conversations are like arguing with lottery winners about how to win the lottery. "Just work two jobs, buy more tickets!" Yeah, I mean that's not bad advice, but it doesn't change the statistical reality that thousands could employ the same strategy and fail simply because it depends on variables ultimately beyond their control.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 19, 2019)

I didn't say attitude but you do need to think outside the box. Plenty of 20 somethings are making millions pretty quick primarily because they don't have all these limiting belief systems. Sure that's not the norm, but can you sustain a decent income with music, sure. 

Personally, I am not doing that yet, I devote most of my time to YouTube where I'm making around $3500/mo producing 2 videos a month (not on the channel in my sig obviously). I'd rather be doing music but it's paying the bills and in the big scheme of things, I have no complaints...


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## muk (Jan 20, 2019)

GtrString said:


> The music library market is getting waay too saturated, so call me a sceptic, but as I see it, only as part of an income portfolio. Even after 5 years, you would be lucky to land 20-30% of those 5k.



The saturation of the market is certainly at least partly true. But I feel there are still enough opportunities. For the royalty-free, non-exclusive market it is brutal how flooded it is. As is the epic/trailer market. Writing trailers is high risk-high reward, as there are few opportunities and _a lot_ of music. But if you land a placement the fees are in the four- or even five-digits. If you don't have a name already chances to land a placement are limited.

In the exclusive market, however, there are plenty of libraries always looking for new writers. If you do your homework, and your music and production skills are up there, you can get into top tier and higher tier exclusive libraries. And these still get very decent placements. The royalties per placement are comparably low, but if you have enough tracks and work with good libraries they add up.

For production music- and media-composers we are in a phase of transition I feel. Traditional royalties are not as high as they used to be. At the same time, streaming is becoming ever more important. And currently that is paying next to nothing for composers. A lot will depend on how PROs catch up to this new reality, and what kind of deal they can negiotate for the composers. If the policy-making goes well and a fair deal can be found things will improve.


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## GtrString (Jan 20, 2019)

muk, I agree it seems like a phase of transition now. And many of the libraries are looking to consolidate. What is ugly is that composers are asked to sign exclusive deals without any advance, and if the libraries sell their catalog to major players after a while, they might use them for blanket deals to streaming companies. In that case you can make the best track in the world without even recouping the hrs spent on making the track.

If you can get in as a staff composer, you will at least make the hrs spent on the music. But backend is fighting for its life, as it is now, and passive income may become a thing of the past.

So the path with least resistance seems to be, make music, play shows or get a staff gig, try to optimize the deals you sign, but dont rely on them as a platform for making a living.


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## R. Soul (Jan 20, 2019)

I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking they can get into the the library music game by doing one niche genre well and then keep flogging tracks to library after library. 
I recently saw a major library release a Death metal album, but I think that's just so that they can cover everything and never have to turn away a client. 
If you write, for example, romantic orchestral scores, I think you need to expand your skill set to at least 'everything orchestral', cause one thing is for sure - once you given a library a romantic orchestral album, it'll probably be a year or two until they need thet again. What are you going to do in the mean time then? 

For example, I've just been commissioned two albums by a large (100.000 tracks) library, cause despite the large amount of tracks, they don't actually have anything in those genres. So instead of turning it down, I'd rather spend a week researching and practicing those styles and broadening my horizon.
In that sense, production music is pretty much the polar opposite of being an artist, where you're expected to turn out similar music album after album.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 20, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> I can't remember if it was you or Jimmy I'd talked about this in another thread some months ago.
> 
> I think about all the hours I've spent locked away in a room with a computer and keyboard and what I could've been doing instead. This past summer, I had more fun just going out and doing stuff with family and friends. I went to medieval faires, horseback riding, fishing, hiking trips, etc. and I could barely bring myself to write any music.
> 
> Years ago, I could sit there from sun up until sundown. Now, I'll spend like 2 weeks or more on 2 minutes of music.



That is wonderful. Life is too short to rot away in front of a computer making music. 

It’s even worse, because at least with a dayjob, you get a wage. With music library writing, it’s just work and work and work and wait and wait and wait for a check. A check that can go up and down with no rhyme or reason.

Nope. I cannot do it anymore.


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## Daryl (Jan 20, 2019)

When one writes library music, there are two important things to remember:

1. You are in competition with 1000s of other composers, so don't go into it thinking that you can write any old rubbish, and save your best stuff for other things. Mostly it doesn't work like that.

2. The distribution network of your Publisher is crucial. If they only have an online presence, you are likely to get far fewer sales than if they have a dedicated sales team.

In terms of writing what you want to write, you should always have an end-user in mind. If you can't see where your music could be used, don't be surprised when potential clients can't either. Usage is probably the most important thing to bear in mind. This is not necessarily a question of style of music more about usability. Do you have many alternative versions? Do you have shorter versions (30s, 60s etc)? Do you have easy edit points? These are just a few of the things that you should bear in mind when writing.


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## dexterjettser (Jan 20, 2019)

Daryl said:


> When one writes library music, there are two important things to remember:
> 
> 1. You are in competition with 1000s of other composers, so don't go into it thinking that you can write any old rubbish, and save your best stuff for other things. Mostly it doesn't work like that.
> 
> ...


I like your point about usability over a specific genre-that helps to keep things in perspective...


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## Chr!s (Jan 20, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> That is wonderful. Life is too short to rot away in front of a computer making music.



Something I wish I realized sooner. We actually have a very limited amount of time in which doing things like traveling, getting married, starting a family, and stuff is really feasible. 

I know guys who, after 20+ years of trying and working dead-end jobs are finally making a living at music. Composing or otherwise.

These guys are crazy cat ladies basically. They missed the boat on becoming fathers and stuff so long ago that they've taken to filling that void with materialism. I'll go over to their houses, see pictures on facebook etc. and it's like a 16-year-old lives there. It's a giant "mancave" where they've stuffed it with video games, nerd things, posters and buying tons of instruments and VSTs with any disposable income. Most of them are unmarried or divorced. Single at least.

But hey! Look on the bright side! They get to slave away for 8+ hours a day in a darkened studio making music for soulless corporations! Worth it. #_Living the dream_.

Don't get me wrong, composing for a living can be great, but it's not worth the sacrifices so many seem to be eager to make.


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## Kony (Jan 20, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Something I wish I realized sooner. We actually have a very limited amount of time in which doing things like traveling, getting married, starting a family, and stuff is really feasible.
> 
> I know guys who, after 20+ years of trying and working dead-end jobs are finally making a living at music. Composing or otherwise.
> 
> ...


I've seen this as well - but have to ask whether it would be better to slave away in front of a computer for 8 hours on music compared to slaving away for 8 hours in front of a computer for someone else's business?


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## Chr!s (Jan 20, 2019)

Kony said:


> I've seen this as well - but have to ask whether it would be better to slave away in front of a computer for 8 hours on music compared to slaving away for 8 hours in front of a computer for someone else's business?



I would say you are slaving away for someone else's business when it comes to composing, generally


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## Kony (Jan 20, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> I would say you are slaving away for someone else's business when it comes to composing, generally


True - but if you're doing it for yourself, that's different


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## dohm (Jan 20, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> ...
> 
> But hey! Look on the bright side! They get to slave away for 8+ hours a day in a darkened studio making music for soulless corporations! Worth it. #_Living the dream_.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, composing for a living can be great, but it's not worth the sacrifices so many seem to be eager to make.



It's always interesting to listen when someone talks about work. People either have a victim mindset or a learning mindset. A recent popular author wrote a book calling versions of this a "fixed mindset" or a "growth mindset." It is worth considering that any self chosen work that can pay you any income is a real privilege when compared to the typical human life situation throughout history. Most people never had the choice or even a remote option to pursue a meaningful career. First, realize that even having the choice to pursue music (or something else) is a huge privilege when compared to 99% of the people who have lived on this beautiful planet throughout history!

Anything with long term satisfaction requires effort, struggle and then more effort...a lot of it. We can choose to pursue higher paying careers, on average, like engineering, software development, medical, etc., or more risky ventures, on average, like starting a business, composer, artist, professional skateboarding , etc. There is no universal right answer to what direction a person should go in regards to a career. A career might pay well and be stable, but make you miserable and unhappy. To another person, that same job might be very satisfying and enjoyable. The good part about trying something is that you then can know for sure if it fits well or not, instead of wondering your whole life, "What if I had pursued X?", "Would I have been more happy?", etc. If it sucks, then at least you know it is the wrong direction and hopefully you can make plans to go a different direction. That is personalized knowledge! The key to a learning mindset is to not moan and complain and try to tell everyone else they are idiots, or at fault, but instead learn from the experience and get back to work on something more satisfying. Change course, if you will. 

I have chosen to do music on the side while I work in something different for my main income. Do I sometimes wish I was a successful and famous film composer? Sure! But, I also know that if I was a full time composer I would sometimes wish I was doing something else. Being a rock star would be cool, right! 

So, composing for a living is absolutely worth the sacrifice...just maybe not for you. I have made sacrifices to earn an education and to startup companies. Nothing is guaranteed. I also choose to sacrifice time to pursue music (composing and playing instruments). This "music" time could be put towards something else that pays more money, so why do it? Because it is satisfying, challenging, hard work, interesting,...and worth doing for me! 

Compared to many others that frequent this forum, I'm not qualified to offer much advice about composing. However, I can offer this advice: Go find the things that are worth the sacrifices. Honor and encourage those that are on their chosen journey, whatever it might be. Learn from every experience. Avoid being cynical - Leave that to the news reporters and politicians


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## Chr!s (Jan 20, 2019)

dohm said:


> It is worth considering that any self chosen work that can pay you any income is a real privilege when compared to the typical human life situation throughout history. Most people never had the choice or even a remote option to pursue a meaningful career.



No, instead they pursued a meaningful family life.

Studies are showing time and again now that childless and unmarried people, especially women, wind up unhappier even with successful careers.

Breastfeeding and having more babies is found to cut the risk of depression in women significantly, especially later in life. Studies have also found that the happiest demographic is as follows:


Male
39 years old
Married
Household income between $150,000 and $200,000
In a senior management position
1 young child at home
A wife who works part-time
Least happy


Female
42 years old
Unmarried (and no children)
Household income under $100,000
In a professional position (doctor, lawyer, etc.)
As the kids say: "oof".

Selling your soul to corporations and "careers" is not more virtuous and fulfilling than getting married and raising a family. Something becoming increasingly difficult on traditional jobs.

Trust me, you think it will, but the time will come where you'll realize that the fact you do X for a living doesn't fill this hole inside your life that comes from failing to fulfill your biological purpose and have a successful home life.

If you have to choose between dream job and happy family life, pick the latter.

But we're off topic. Join me in arguing this in the politics section if you like.


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## R. Soul (Jan 21, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> No, instead they pursued a meaningful family life.
> 
> Studies are showing time and again now that childless and unmarried people, especially women, wind up unhappier even with successful careers.
> 
> ...


If a household income of $200.000 is not selling your soul to corporations and careers, I don't know what is.

If the couple was 'Bin man' and 'Dinner lady' with 5 kids, yeah sure. But that income is like Prime minister level.


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## Chr!s (Jan 21, 2019)

R. Soul said:


> If a household income of $200.000 is not selling your soul to corporations and careers, I don't know what is.
> 
> If the couple was 'Bin man' and 'Dinner lady' with 5 kids, yeah sure. But that income is like Prime minister level.



He could make less than 100k and the result would be the very much the same. You're kinda missing the point.

The point is that putting off things like a wife and kids just so you can maybe possibly one day get the job of "write music for consumer products" for a living is insanity.

We all know that most aspiring musicians will put off such things, and will not have a career that would allow them to have it, because that will take away from their investment in music in most cases today. Starbucks and living with 3 roommates may let you have time and disposable income to pursue your music dream, but it will turn you into a cat lady if it doesn't work out.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Jan 21, 2019)

I never thought that it would never work out, I just figured it would take time. It took about 12 years, full-time. Dreams can come true, but I had to give my dream all my working time.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 21, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Male
> 39 years old
> Married
> Household income between $150,000 and $200,000
> ...




Wow dude.  Sounds like an absolute horror scenario. Also sounds like a typical thing which "studies have found" - usually a reliable indicator for bullcrap and nonsense.
Also, most of the people in that category tend to be insufferably boring personalities and often petty-minden jerks. So, I don't know man ...


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## Chr!s (Jan 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Wow dude.  Sounds like an absolute horror scenario. Also sounds like a typical thing which "studies have found" - usually a reliable indicator for bullcrap and nonsense.
> Also, most of the people in that category tend to be insufferably boring personalities and often petty-minden jerks. So, I don't know man ...



The point of the study is that married people with children are happier than those who aren't, and cool jobs don't make up for it.


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## rottoy (Jan 21, 2019)

What a load of nonsense. 
Everyone knows the happiest demographic is the subset of people that own all the BML volumes from Spitfire Audio.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 21, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> The point of the study is that married people with children are happier than those who aren't, and cool jobs don't make up for it.



There's another very valuable long term study which started in the 80ies and was conducted for 10 years. It states the exact opposite. 

It's called "Married ... With Children." Never heard of that one?

Seriously, how do you measure "happiness". It's a ridiculous idea to begin with. Anyone who conducts a "study" on "happiness" is a buffoon with an agenda. Besides, many of those orderly married people never seemed particularly happy to me ...


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## Chr!s (Jan 21, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> There's another very valuable long term study which started in the 80ies and was conducted for 10 years. It states the exact opposite.
> 
> It's called "Married ... With Children." Never heard of that one?
> 
> Seriously, how do you measure "happiness". It's a ridiculous idea to begin with. Anyone who conducts a "study" on "happiness" is a buffoon with an agenda. Besides, many of those orderly married people never seemed particularly happy to me ...



Well I don't know, but whatever you're doing seems to only lead to bitterness.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 21, 2019)

dohm said:


> I have chosen to do music on the side while I work in something different for my main income. Do I sometimes wish I was a successful and famous film composer? Sure! But, I also know that if I was a full time composer I would sometimes wish I was doing something else. Being a rock star would be cool, right!



Like yourself, I have a successful non-musical career while I compose/perform professionally part time (I have done this for many, many years). I have literally lived the touring "Rock Star" life...granted, it wasn't successful in terms of big $$, but enough to realize it wasn't what I wanted to do for the rest my life. Bottom line is, continue to pursue your passions, even if it means realizing it's going to be a part-time thing. As long as you are happy and content (and without resentment of the past), you are 100% successful IMO. My advice is.....give your "Rock Star" dreams an honest shot while you are young and carefree, don't wait!!!!! And trust me, you won't regret it because you'll know you gave it your best shot. 

As others have mentioned, at some point you have to cut your losses and decide what's most important....being piss-poor with a false hope, or getting a proper job while continuing your musical journey on the side? I have many friends who are still delusional, and have missed the boat on starting a family and building up some sort of net worth (they literally live on sporatic musical gigs and temp day jobs). That is not a situation you want to be in later in life, and they are setting themselves up for HUGE regrets which are irreversible. Nothing worse than a 50 year-old guy with a skullet and bad (or no) credit, no net worth, and no assets.


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## Vonk (Jan 21, 2019)

It would be good if this thread would return to the subject of music libraries, and appropriate music styles for them. We can decide lifestyle consequences for ourselves thanks.


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## InLight-Tone (Jan 21, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> I would say you are slaving away for someone else's business when it comes to composing, generally


You've got a pretty bleak outlook on LIFE there bud, good luck...


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## JohnG (Jan 21, 2019)

A few composers make tons of money writing for libraries, but they are really good. 

Not "friends and family" good;

not "It sounds weak in places, but if only I had every library" good;

not "it would sound so much better with live players" good.

*How Good?*

People who get numerous placements and high fees write "outstanding" good, defined as something that really grabs people, that they "just think is cool" or "just like" the first time and every time. Music people wish had never been licensed before so they could be the first to have it; music they wish they could have exclusively for their movie / company / show / product.

That's what one has to aim for, even though we might fall short. I'm not saying it has to be super-expensive to produce, either. Although I've had most success with quite expensive tracks (that is, large orchestras with plenty of mixing etc.), some have been far less expensive and still earned well.

Aim to write music that YOU think is absolutely killer / cool / love to hear it again. Something you'd be willing to hire players to perform. Learn to orchestrate and mix if you don't know how; even a little incremental skill there is helpful.

If you follow your instincts and taste, at least if nobody _else_ likes it, you have honoured what's inside you, what makes you unusual or special. And chances are if it's really great to you, there will be others who will agree.

*Don't Do This
*
A pale, sample-based imitation of someone else's work is only going to attract bargain hunters and sink in the morass of "other."


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 21, 2019)

JohnG said:


> A pale, sample-based imitation of someone else's work is only going to attract bargain hunters and lost in the morass of "other."



Totally! And I'm the of those few who feels that a composer in this market should be as versatile as possible. In other words, don't niche yourself into a certain genre. I consider myself quite solid in a handful of genres, but rarely turn down work if it's outside my comfort zone. In fact, one of my best relationships came as a result of an obscure track on my website that was purely experimental on my part. So in the OP's case, don't focus so much on a certain style (neo-classical in his case), but produce solid, well orchestrated tracks in any genre you feel inspired by. Once you get your foot in the door with a good library company, you are already in the right direction.


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## dexterjettser (Jan 21, 2019)

Wolfie2112 said:


> Totally! And I'm the of those few who feels that a composer in this market should be as versatile as possible. In other words, don't niche yourself into a certain genre. I consider myself quite solid in a handful of genres, but rarely turn down work if it's outside my comfort zone. In fact, one of my best relationships came as a result of an obscure track on my website that was purely experimental on my part. So in the OP's case, don't focus so much on a certain style (neo-classical in his case), but produce solid, well orchestrated tracks in any genre you feel inspired by. Once you get your foot in the door with a good library company, you are already in the right direction.


Thanks for the awesome advice everyone. I think as long as I’m writing something orchestral or cinematic I’ll be content. Better to be more versatile, makes one more marketable


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## dexterjettser (Jan 21, 2019)

JohnG said:


> A few composers make tons of money writing for libraries, but they are really good.
> 
> Not "friends and family" good;
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you!


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## gsilbers (Jan 21, 2019)

maybe its obvious but library music is for media production so prodcuers and editors can use it for their tv, ads, movies and trailers. They are used to specific sounds for specific scenes and products and therefore that demand is offered by different music libraries and within those music libraries the tracks follow specific form and styles within those genres. So if you write that style, find a few tracks or libraries that sell those, see the ratings etc and try to adapt. But no, you wont be able to write what you want... kinda like a job, you have to write for whats needed. Unless what you like falls within that style and form. Sometimes is changing a few things, getting used to it and within those limits you can get creative in other ways. 
as for a full time job.... no. at least not for a while if you see you are getting placements. takes a long time. Its also a matter of practice and being able to write fast. 1-4 good tracks a day fast. IF thats the style you like, and you can hit the form publishers and media producers want then you should be able to write fast and also earn enough.


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## Chr!s (Jan 21, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> You've got a pretty bleak outlook on LIFE there bud, good luck...



Reality tends to be that way: There is, at the end of the day, no difference between plugging away for 9 hours a day at your computer screen making music for Viacom than there is being in a office cubicle for the same company aside from the fact that you romanticize one and not the other.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with wanting to do that, but it's an unlikely job to get and



Wolfie2112 said:


> As others have mentioned, at some point you have to cut your losses and decide what's most important....being piss-poor with a false hope, or getting a proper job while continuing your musical journey on the side? I have many friends who are still delusional, and have missed the boat on starting a family and building up some sort of net worth (they literally live on sporatic musical gigs and temp day jobs). That is not a situation you want to be in later in life, and they are setting themselves up for HUGE regrets which are irreversible. Nothing worse than a 50 year-old guy with a skullet and bad (or no) credit, no net worth, and no assets.



You know what's more bleak than not becoming a pro composer? Becoming a catlady.


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## Desire Inspires (Jan 21, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Something I wish I realized sooner. We actually have a very limited amount of time in which doing things like traveling, getting married, starting a family, and stuff is really feasible.
> 
> I know guys who, after 20+ years of trying and working dead-end jobs are finally making a living at music. Composing or otherwise.
> 
> ...



That does not sound like a bad life to me.


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## StevenMcDonald (Jan 21, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Reality tends to be that way: There is, at the end of the day, no difference between plugging away for 9 hours a day at your computer screen making music for Viacom than there is being in a office cubicle for the same company aside from the fact that you romanticize one and not the other.



There's a HUGE difference in those two things. If you enjoy writing music and care about the industry, that makes working for 9 hours a day infinitely more sustainable than doing the same in some "normal" job that you only do for money, whether its in a cubicle, a restaurant, or a construction site.


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## Chr!s (Jan 21, 2019)

StevenMcDonald said:


> There's a HUGE difference in those two things. If you enjoy writing music and care about the industry, that makes working for 9 hours a day infinitely more sustainable than doing the same in some "normal" job that you only do for money, whether its in a cubicle, a restaurant, or a construction site.



I hate to pull the materialist card here, but it's applicable:

That's nothing more than your subjective feeling about it. But the objective truth is, it's just another cog in the machine. What about the office employees who like their jobs just as much?

Anyway, OP just needs to be realistic: Saying something like "I could make 30k work" it's like...yeah, I think most people could. Problem is, most people never will make that kinda money with music though. 

There are only two options here: You either become a gainfully-employed musician who can make a living doing what you love _early enough_ in life that you can raise a family on it, or you don't — You just become a male catlady.


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## StevenMcDonald (Jan 21, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> I hate to pull the materialist card here, but it's applicable:
> 
> That's nothing more than your subjective feeling about it. But the objective truth is, it's just another cog in the machine. What about the office employees who like their jobs just as much?
> 
> ...



Yes, and how you subjectively feel about your job is a big deal and makes all the difference in how much you can enjoy life. So that is very important. No reason to just write it off as subjective. Subjective feelings are a major part of being a human. 

Also you're weirdly hung up on this whole cat lady thing. I am a family man, but I acknowledge that not everyone else is. Settling down and raising kids isn't everyone's objective.


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## Chr!s (Jan 21, 2019)

StevenMcDonald said:


> Yes, and how you subjectively feel about your job is a big deal and makes all the difference in how much you can enjoy life. So that is very important. No reason to just write it off as subjective. Subjective feelings are a major part of being a human.



And I never disputed that.



StevenMcDonald said:


> Settling down and raising kids isn't everyone's objective.



It isn't. But the thing is that more and more scholars, psychologists, and the like are taking note of the fact that people who don't have them wind up with greater depression in life despite career and financial success.

and that is the idea I wish to communicate here: There is more to life than music and you should not put off things like family so that you can get a job you'd like to do just because you like that job. You could very easily wind up with, as wolfie put it "irreversible regrets". 

and in the case we're discussing, getting that job at all is very much in the hands of fate.


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## ionian (Jan 21, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> There are only two options here: You either become a gainfully-employed musician who can make a living doing what you love _early enough_ in life that you can raise a family on it, or you don't — You just become a male catlady.



It seems like your vision is hampered by your (lack of) experience, maybe? 

There's plenty of people like me, and my fiancee. I'm a full time mostly session musician who does some orchestration, who makes a very good living. My fiancee is a first call session flutist who's also very successful. I own my home, she owns her condo. Both of them are paid off. (We live in NYC so it wasn't cheap!). Our late model cars are paid off. Yet somehow neither of us have a desire to have kids but we're both successful (and became successful early on) and are very happy. I'm in my 40s, she's in her 30s.

The only other people we know are also full time, professional musicians because of the circle we work in and the majority of them are in their 40s and 50s and married and childless and very happy. They're all pretty successful. It's not uncommon. 

I get that maybe you don't work in that circle so you don't see that side - the successful musician who makes a very good living, who's married and childless and happy, but it does exist. The fact that you keep trying to shoehorn your views into two sides - the happy, married, successful family man with a good day job or the lonely cat lady/man who's a struggling musician is far from the only two options out there.

In fact, when my fiancee and I got engaged, our engagement party guests consisted only of full time professional musicians since those are the only people we socialize with and we had at least 80 people at our party and they all make good livings and are successful at what they do. I keep hearing the stereotype of the musician who struggles and is poor but again, that's not the only way you can end up. There are a large amount of very successful, full time musicians.


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Jan 21, 2019)

ionian said:


> It seems like your vision is hampered by your (lack of) experience, maybe?
> 
> There's plenty of people like me, and my fiancee. I'm a full time mostly session musician who does some orchestration, who makes a very good living. My fiancee is a first call session flutist who's also very successful. I own my home, she owns her condo. Both of them are paid off. (We live in NYC so it wasn't cheap!). Our late model cars are paid off. Yet somehow neither of us have a desire to have kids but we're both successful (and became successful early on) and are very happy. I'm in my 40s, she's in her 30s.
> 
> ...



You can adopt me if you want a man baby. I wipe my own bum


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## Chr!s (Jan 21, 2019)

ionian said:


> I get that maybe you don't work in that circle so you don't see that side - the successful musician who makes a very good living, who's married and childless and happy, but it does exist



Overwhelmingly the minority


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## T-LeffoH (Jan 21, 2019)

JohnG said:


> Aim to write music that YOU think is absolutely killer / cool / love to hear it again. Something you'd be willing to hire players to perform. Learn to orchestrate and mix if you don't know how; even a little incremental skill there is helpful.
> 
> If you follow your instincts and taste, at least if nobody _else_ likes it, you have honoured what's inside you, what makes you unusual or special. And chances are if it's really great to you, there will be others who will agree.
> 
> ...



John has the best feedback so far on this thread. Particularly in the area of what not to do - and listen to a lot of royalty-free music sources if you want to find out what not to do.



dexterjettser said:


> I am interested in contemporary orchestral and neo-classical music. Stuff like olafur arnaulds, johan johansson, any Andy Blaney SF demo, etc. If I could compose music like that for libraries I would really enjoy it, but I’m not sure how much use my tracks would get. Perhaps music you’d find in nature documentary or something. I’m not sure.
> 
> My question is basically, could someone make a full time income writing library music in sort of a niche style such as neo-classical? I’m fairly new to all of this so I figured I’d reach out. Many thanks



The short answer is maybe. If you really think your music could be targeted more in the area of documentary, I'd suggest researching recent popular TV docu-series on PBS, Netflix/Amazon or elsewhere to see where they source their material. Then write some of the best music you think could accompany those types of series and reach out to those libraries directly if they accept unsolicited music.

In a greater context in the grand scheme of production music, I would suggest to consider not approaching it with the expectation to be able to succeed in doing just one thing. You will automatically reduce possible outlets & opportunities to write music even if you've gotten works placed into a library's catalogue.

I've more often found myself in circumstances writing for a library to briefs in a style/genre I don't particularly enjoy but forcibly put my own instincts & taste into the writing - so I'd personally want to listen to the work by the time I was done. That doesn't necessarily mean I would've preferred using the time to write something else, but like any job - a willingness to respond to what's being asked for at the moment does help in getting placements.


----------



## dannymc (Jan 23, 2019)

muk said:


> That's how I imagine uploading to royalty-free libraries can be like. It's quite a bit different when working with exclusive libraries. Then you'll work together with A&R-people, developing concepts for new albums, discussing tracks and how to improve them etc. Building good working relationships plays an important part. It also involves contacting libraries you'd like to work with, following up, frequently being turned down or not hearing back. But if you are in with a good library it can be very rewarding.
> 
> You can write the music that you want to write. You can work at your own pace - no crazy deadlines. It takes time to build a steady stream of income, but if you stop writing music the tracks that you have out there will still generate money for some time. The libraries take care of the admin work (titling, meta-tagging, registering tracks with a pro, artwork), and will promote your tracks, so you can focus on writing music.
> 
> It's certainly not for everyone. But for me it is a very nice way to create some income from writing music. It gives you a lot of freedom, both creatively and in terms of workload. It's work that easily integrates with other jobs because you get to choose when and how much you work at any time. And, apart from generating royalties, seeing placements for your music can be highly motivating.



yeah i totally agree. as someone who is coming from a day job environment rather than a trained educated musician i can honestly say after 4 years in this game the production music business is no different to the world of traditional business as in its all about the relationships you form with people that will help you have a career. that's why i would only advise working with exclusive labels that work on albums and concepts. you will be working with actual people who know you as a composer and not just a wav on a website and they will get to know your strengths and weaknesses as a composer. this can lead to custom work if you're lucky or collaborations with other composers to improve your skill set in those areas you may be weaker. i would still be very positive about this industry but maybe people may need to manage their expectations a bit. start with smaller goals such as maybe this becoming a part time income and then go from there. personally i think people getting into library music for the first time this year probably wouldn't be able to earn enough to survive in a modern western country such as the US (anything $50k or more) but i think if you're planning to be a full time musician you should be diversifying anyway. 

Danny


----------



## Desire Inspires (Jan 23, 2019)

dannymc said:


> that's why i would only advise working with exclusive labels that work on albums and concepts. you will be working with actual people who know you as a composer and not just a wav on a website and they will get to know your strengths and weaknesses as a composer.



Yes, this is good advice.

But don’t throw away the songs that get rejected. Some songs are good but don’t fit the mood of a particular release. 

Save those songs for the royalty-free sites. You should be making money from all your music.


----------



## Valérie_D (Jan 23, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> No, instead they pursued a meaningful family life.
> 
> Studies are showing time and again now that childless and unmarried people, especially women, wind up unhappier even with successful careers.
> 
> ...



*I think time can't be bought back, choices are made, sacrifices are made one way or the other, but please, oh please just stop being a walking internet cliché : for instance : I am 36 years old, I have 2 sisters and a brother and we get along famously, I spent my life between music, the family business, taking care of my brother when he had cancer then taking care of my dad when he was sick, has been for 10 years, I do library music because it's more flexible, doing all this while being ask every single year ''Why don't you have kids, etc etc, cat lady, yada yada'' Meanwhile, a lot of my friends have kids, bundle of joy : divorce, battle for custody, etc, some make it, some don't, a friend of mine has not slept for 3 years and is in burnout because of the baby. 

So : my point is : internet gives you the feel of ''studies have found, path in life, idealism'' perception of a huge check list like you did earlier. 

Reality : we do our best everyday, stick or don't stick with our choices and go into the unknown with resulting consequences, etc. I don't know if I am clear it's just your little study might have made me smile and muse when I was 20 but know, I'm bewildered that these little boxes to trap people in actually exist. .....That being said, not ever getting out of a man-cave has consequences too, I'm aware of that.

...and yes! There is a cat in my life too, they quite enjoy music!


----------



## ghostnote (Jan 23, 2019)

I've worked 2 weeks on a track, blood, sweat and tears. Very well tought trough and with a massive orchestration involved, with the mindset that it'll hit like a bomb. Well after finishing, many libraries decided to reject it. It got licensed 1 time.

One year before that I wrote something just with a piano and a string ensemble. Without any tought and with a light tone. Just for fun. Took maybe not more than 4 hours to finish. It got licensed over 1500 times.

So, the only advice I can give you is: Find your space in which you can evolve musically, don't get distracted. Just find your voice and things can happen.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 23, 2019)

Valérie_D said:


> Meanwhile, a lot of my friends have kids, bundle of joy : divorce, battle for custody, etc, some make it, some don't, a friend of mine has not slept for 3 years and is in burnout because of the baby.



The subject of divorce, which the system ostensibly encourages or at least makes it extremely easy for women to cut and run with absolutely no collateral damage to her, and why the divorce rate is high, is a subject for an entirely different thread,

but



Valérie_D said:


> So : my point is : internet gives you the feel of ''studies have found, path in life, idealism'' perception of a huge check list like you did earlier.



This argument holds up when you have a one-off or small sample size, but the problem is that data yields repeated results, from different and large sample groups; meaning the trend is a real phenomenon. Time and again. It's also very easy to find plenty of examples around you.

That's what we're basically arguing here: There's a rule, people here provide exceptions to it, and then suggest that the rule is therefore worth basically no consideration.

Some people may be happy with nothing more than their job and some will become professional composers for a living. But for _most_ of us, that will simply not happen and happiness is found with other people. This is something that hit the millennial generation especially hard as their friends moved away and they were left with no SO or children in that wake; most of my friends getting married can't find a flower girl for their wedding because no one has any kids.



Valérie_D said:


> That being said, not ever getting out of a man-cave has consequences too, I'm aware of that.



Well, that's good



Valérie_D said:


> ...and yes! There is a cat in my life too, they quite enjoy music!


----------



## Valérie_D (Jan 23, 2019)

[QUOTE=" most of my friends getting married can't find a flower girl for their wedding because no one has any kids.[/QUOTE]

..........................................................................................................
........What in the world is a flower girl.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 23, 2019)

Valérie_D said:


> [QUOTE=" most of my friends getting married can't find a flower girl for their wedding because no one has any kids.



..........................................................................................................
........What in the world is a flower girl.[/QUOTE]

Ever been to a wedding?


----------



## Valérie_D (Jan 23, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> ..........................................................................................................
> ........What in the world is a flower girl.



Ever been to a wedding?[/QUOTE]
Ah ok, sorry, didn't mean to sound abrasive here, english is a second language, you mean like a maid of honor.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 23, 2019)

Valérie_D said:


> Ah ok, sorry, didn't mean to sound abrasive here, english is a second language, you mean like a maid of honor.



I'd not have guessed, since your written English is just fine. 

Young girl from the extended family who walks down the aisle and throws flower petals.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 23, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> The subject of divorce, which the system ostensibly encourages or at least makes it extremely easy for women to cut and run with absolutely no collateral damage to her, and why the divorce rate is high, is a subject for an entirely different thread



Wimenz running away from you and the system is helping them too! Such a scandal.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 23, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Wimenz running away from you and the system is helping them too! Such a scandal.



You know, I think I've realized now why you're so bitter all the fucking time


----------



## Valérie_D (Jan 23, 2019)

[QUOTE="






[/QUOTE]
Ah ok, sorry here, did not read the whole thread and the obsession over the cat/man lady. If the image is a joke : haha, if it's not and it's contempt because I have a cat, it's like the internet itself is replying to me at that point.


----------



## Crowe (Jan 23, 2019)

Cats are great, children are annoying and time-consuming, marriage is a broken
system and my partner feels the same on all points.

We are happy and as such all the 'studies' in the world can tell us it ought to be
otherwise, they are still irrelevant to our situation.

Statistics are nice and all, but numbers are only numbers.

And numbers don't mean a thing out of context.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

Shiirai said:


> Statistics are nice and all, but numbers are only numbers.
> 
> And numbers don't mean a thing out of context.



Just because those numbers don't apply to you, or at least not yet, doesn't mean they don't apply to most. That's what everyone keeps missing in this conversation.

And a lot of people _think_ they're the exception to the rule until they're past the point of no return. Which is why I again say: OP needs to check his expectations. "I could make 30k work", yeah well...good luck even ever making that much. 

So for everyone who is willing to let all these ships sail for music, we'll meet back here in 10 - 20 years and see if "Mittens" is still enough for you. I've seen it more than enough to doubt it.



Shiirai said:


> children are annoying and time-consuming, marriage is a broken
> system and my partner feels the same on all points.



A conditioned attitude preached to the masses since the dawn of the baby boomer generation.


----------



## Crowe (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Just because those numbers don't apply to you, or at least not yet, doesn't mean they don't apply to most. That's what everyone keeps missing in this conversation.
> 
> And a lot of people _think_ they're the exception to the rule until they're past the point of no return. Which is why I again say: OP needs to check his expectations. "I could make 30k work", yeah well...good luck even ever making that much.
> 
> ...



See, to me, *that* is a conditioned attitude.

A lot of people *think* that because 'studies have shown', the studies will probably apply to them.
I've seldom seen a study that actually illustrated my situation, so I often wonder who the hell
they are asking for their studies.

It's funny that you seem to think I'm indoctrinated while you seem to operate from an equally
indoctrinated viewpoint. I'm simply speaking from experience, which I will forever
trust more than any random study, because who actually funded that study and why?

You've seen one thing, I've seen different. Apparently, a lot of people have seen
different.

I firmly subscribe to the 'Whatever Works' mentality, anyway.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

Yeah, except the thing I've seen is repeatedly backed up by mountains of real data. Which makes it more sound advice.

It's like, imagine you're in the passenger seat, and your friend in the driver's starts texting. Then you're like "Dude, stop! You're gonna get us killed!" and he's like "Oh, lighten up! I've done this a million times, you just have to be careful!" Then when you say "Yeah, but like, statistically speaking a huge number of car accid-" and then he interjects with "Neeerrrrrrrd"

That's this conversation, and I'm in the passenger seat.


----------



## Crowe (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Yeah, except the thing I've seen is repeatedly backed up by mountains of real data. Which makes it more sound advice.
> 
> It's like, imagine you're in the passenger seat, and your friend in the driver's starts texting. Then you're like "Dude, stop! You're gonna get us killed!" and he's like "Oh, lighten up! I've done this a million times, you just have to be careful!" Then when you say "Yeah, but like, statistically speaking a huge number of car accid-" and then he interjects with "Neeerrrrrrrd"
> 
> That's this conversation, and I'm in the passenger seat.



You're absolutely right, I've been living my life wrong. I'll go knock up my partner, get rid of our
cat and force her into marriage next week, because god forbid we don't conform to your 'mountains of real data'.

Talk about a passenger seat. I've been having to listen to nonsense like this since since I became cognitive.

It makes me wonder what you make of all the other statistics. You know, like suicide and divorce rates. Or the numbers of young adults who need fucking mental help for growing up in disfunctional families because 'parents' felt obliged to spawn children they didn't know how to raise, or the number of people who are proscribed anti-depressants because they suffer from suicidal tendencies because don't feel like they have a place in the world, mainly because of asshats who keep yelling about what 'normal' is supposed to be.

You know *nothing*.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

Shiirai said:


> I've been having to listen to nonsense like this since since I became cognitive.



"Having families and continuing the existence of the species and stuff is nonsense!" 

No wonder western civilization is fucked


----------



## Crowe (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> "Having families and continuing the existence of the species and stuff is nonsense!"
> 
> No wonder western civilization is fucked



Yeah. That's exactly how I feel.


----------



## Valérie_D (Jan 24, 2019)

*There's also the notion of extended family : I don't have children, absolutly don't have time, nor the funds, nor the partner. I have been tutoring my cousin for 2 years now. 

He just turned sixteen and I have been teaching him english on a regular basis with books, films and conversations. We go in cafés and read together and I bring him to the movies, we talk about it in english afterwards, his mom does not speak english and is very thankful I'm there for him. It's a very fulfilling experience, just like my childless uncle did for me when I was a teen.


----------



## Daryl (Jan 24, 2019)

This is all getting very OT now. For my part, there are some people, for whom creativity is such a huge part, who can't be happy without using that creativity, no matter the other perceived costs. People who don't have this sort of creativity will never understand what that feels like. That is not a failing on their part. Just part of life's rich tapestry. We're all different.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jan 24, 2019)

Uh, WHAT's the topic again?


----------



## Alex Fraser (Jan 24, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Uh, WHAT's the topic again?


It's about the best way to poach eggs. Keep up, mate.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> You know, I think I've realized now why you're so bitter all the fucking time



Says the music biz buzzkill, society dogmatist and decryer of female self-determination!


----------



## Vonk (Jan 24, 2019)

I suspect there is an interesting discussion to be had about the benefits and pitfalls of working for/with music libraries. Sadly this is no longer it. 
Breast feeding ? Divorce laws? Child rearing? Cats? 
Who knew ........


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Says the music biz buzzkill, society dogmatist and decryer of female self-determination!



Buddy, you are the first on the "fuck the biz and being a corporate slave" train in every case. You were in this thread too, but your perpetual cognitive dissonance causes you to forget that and spurge out the second that some other thing for you to oppose shows up. Desire Inspires likened library writing to a prison as well, but even he turned tail on this in a flash too.



Vonk said:


> I suspect there is an interesting discussion to be had about the benefits and pitfalls of working for/with music libraries. Sadly this is no longer it.
> Breast feeding ? Divorce laws? Child rearing? Cats?
> Who knew ........



It's all been had within the first three pages. The biggest pitfall here is that OP's financial expectations on niche genres are unrealistic and there's no shortage of "who cares if you can potentially waste your prime years chasing a dream statistically unlikely to happen!" cheerleaders. It's absolutely a relevant discussion to have with young people pursuing music careers.

All the people who fail and the 45-year-old, clinically-depressed, forever-alone lawyers are "just numbers", but this is coming from the same liberal-minded people who'd care deeply about "just numbers" if this were about legalizing drugs, climate change, vaccinations, and the like.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Buddy, you are the first on the "fuck the biz and being a corporate slave" train in every case. You were in this thread too, but your perpetual cognitive dissonance causes you to forget that and spurge out the second that some other thing for you to oppose shows up.



Ever heard of "projection bias"? Don't feel bad, happens to people all the time.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jan 24, 2019)

Vonk said:


> interesting discussion to be had about the benefits and pitfalls of working for/with music libraries.
> Who knew ........



You might try the search engine, my friend.


----------



## D Halgren (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Buddy, you are the first on the "fuck the biz and being a corporate slave" train in every case. You were in this thread too, but your perpetual cognitive dissonance causes you to forget that and spurge out the second that some other thing for you to oppose shows up. Desire Inspires likened library writing to a prison as well, but even he turned tail on this in a flash too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, you came to a forum that is full of people that work in the music industry in order to tell them that there is no way to be successful and happy in the music industry? That's brilliant! Since you're here, why don't you tell us about your rich family life. Are you married? How many kids? What are their names? They must be proud of their dad, as he has all the answers in life, and is undoubtedly the most successful man in the world. Good on ya, bud. You won life!


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jan 24, 2019)

D Halgren said:


> So, you came to a forum that is full of people that work in the music industry in order to tell them that there is no way to be successful and happy in the music industry? That's brilliant! Since you're here, why don't you tell us about your rich family life. Are you married? How many kids? What are their names? They must be proud of their dad, as he has all the answers in life, and is undoubtedly the most successful man in the world. Good on ya, bud. You won life!



What he said.


----------



## StevenMcDonald (Jan 24, 2019)

I didn't say this at first, but the more this Chris guy goes on, the more he comes off as someone who is bitter about not having a music career and is trying to justify it to himself, while also pushing some political views/values. Killing two birds with one really weird and out-of-place stone.

Maybe that's inaccurate, but it just keeps reinforcing itself to me with every post.


----------



## patrick76 (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> You know, I think I've realized now why you're so bitter all the fucking time


He's bitter for mocking your statement implying that it ought to be more difficult for women to get a divorce? Take your sexism somewhere else please. Disgusting.


----------



## Desire Inspires (Jan 24, 2019)

Daryl said:


> This is all getting very OT now. For my part, there are some people, for whom creativity is such a huge part, who can't be happy without using that creativity, no matter the other perceived costs. People who don't have this sort of creativity will never understand what that feels like. That is not a failing on their part. Just part of life's rich tapestry. We're all different.



Yeah. If you love music more than having a family, then choose music. No need in getting stuck in relationships that you will regret and be absent in.

Don’t give up your dreams for anything.


----------



## CologneScoring (Jan 24, 2019)

I'm quite surprised and annoyed everytime I start reading a thread about a subject that interests me, just to find it hijacked by someone who have to force everybody into this "my way is the only one, and there is nothing you can do about it" thing, wich isn't even related to the question.
Absurd. And absolutely ridiculous...


----------



## InLight-Tone (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> You know, I think I've realized now why you're so bitter all the fucking time


Hmmmm, "The pot calling the kettle black"....


----------



## InLight-Tone (Jan 24, 2019)

StevenMcDonald said:


> I didn't say this at first, but the more this Chris guy goes on, the more he comes off as someone who is bitter about not having a music career and is trying to justify it to himself, while also pushing some political views/values. Killing two birds with one really weird and out-of-place stone.
> 
> Maybe that's inaccurate, but it just keeps reinforcing itself to me with every post.


BOOM!!!


----------



## InLight-Tone (Jan 24, 2019)

Parsifal666 said:


> Uh, WHAT's the topic again?


The topic is Chris hates his life and you should too...


----------



## Daryl (Jan 24, 2019)

Desire Inspires said:


> Yeah. If you love music more than having a family, then choose music.



Well, it's not necessarily an either/or, but some of us don't actually choose music. It sounds poncy, but it chooses us...!


----------



## D Halgren (Jan 24, 2019)

InLight-Tone said:


> The topic is Chris hates his life and you should too...


I do hate his life


Disclaimer:
Just a joke, hence the emoji. I am not that invested in his life to care.


----------



## kitekrazy (Jan 24, 2019)

Back to bringing this off topic. I watched a documentary on the group Chicago on Netlfix. There is another I think is called Hired Guns. One thing you learn is fame comes long before fortune.


----------



## Kony (Jan 24, 2019)

StevenMcDonald said:


> I didn't say this at first, but the more this Chris guy goes on, the more he comes off as someone who is bitter about not having a music career and is trying to justify it to himself, while also pushing some political views/values. Killing two birds with one really weird and out-of-place stone.
> 
> Maybe that's inaccurate, but it just keeps reinforcing itself to me with every post.


He's also been making some neo-Nazi comments over in the politics threads - stuff about racial purity, mass deportations, anti-Israel comments etc - and admits to being a fascist.... So I'm not surprised about his attitude to women.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 24, 2019)

Kony said:


> He's also been making some neo-Nazi comments over in the politics threads - stuff about racial purity, mass deportations, anti-Israel comments etc - and admits to being a fascist.... So I'm not surprised about his attitude to women.



Wow. You're right. I just saw for myself. What a chump.


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

StevenMcDonald said:


> I didn't say this at first, but the more this Chris guy goes on, the more he comes off as someone who is bitter about not having a music career and is trying to justify it to himself, while also pushing some political views/values. Killing two birds with one really weird and out-of-place stone.
> 
> Maybe that's inaccurate, but it just keeps reinforcing itself to me with every post.



Nah, I couldn't care less about music careers — it's just pathetic to see people giving others advice that can set them up for serious disappointment later in life and acting like it's no big deal just because they consider themselves an exception to the rule. 

Living like that will turn you into Jimmy


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

Kony said:


> He's also been making some neo-Nazi comments over in the politics threads - stuff about racial purity, mass deportations, anti-Israel comments etc - and admits to being a fascist.... So I'm not surprised about his attitude to women.



You're a self-admitted communist. Your opinions aren't even worth shit.


----------



## Jdiggity1 (Jan 24, 2019)

Do I move this thread to Drama Zone now or...

Keep the politics and pettiness out of this thread please. It's a helpful discussion and there are good posts made by all. Let's not bury them any deeper.


----------



## Parsifal666 (Jan 24, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Wow. You're right. I just saw for myself. What a chump.



Wow.


----------



## Kony (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> You're a self-admitted communist


For the record, I haven't admitted to supporting any political ideology. Sorry to post politics but wanted to set the record straight. Cheers.


----------



## PaulBrimstone (Jan 24, 2019)

Jdiggity1 said:


> Do I move this thread to Drama Zone now or...
> 
> Keep the politics and pettiness out of this thread please. It's a helpful discussion and there are good posts made by all.


The core of the thead is valid and interesting, @Jdiggity1. Just get yer banning boots on...


----------



## StevenMcDonald (Jan 24, 2019)

Kony said:


> He's also been making some neo-Nazi comments over in the politics threads - stuff about racial purity, mass deportations, anti-Israel comments etc - and admits to being a fascist.... So I'm not surprised about his attitude to women.



Ah, it all makes sense now 

Regardless of terrible "advice" from people with no actual experience, there's no reason not to give a music career an honest try. You just need to have a backup plan and understand it might not work out. We're all (mostly) adults here and can make the judgment for ourselves whether a music career or family is more important to us. And believe it or not, you can even have both, plus some cats. Chase the dream, just don't kill yourself over it. Listen to your body and mind.

As far as writing only what you want with music libraries, I believe it's alot less likely to make you a living than if you diversify and try to hit as many briefs/styles as you can while keeping a reasonable level of authenticity and production. But the fact that the OP has already mentioned communicating with his main publisher about the idea is a good sign. In my experience, libraries and music supervisors have been very appreciative of me communicating, and they'll usually tell you what has been selling so you can capitalize or avoid accordingly.


----------



## Paul Cardon (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Buddy, you are the first on the "fuck the biz and being a corporate slave" train in every case. You were in this thread too, but your perpetual cognitive dissonance causes you to forget that and spurge out the second that some other thing for you to oppose shows up. Desire Inspires likened library writing to a prison as well, but even he turned tail on this in a flash too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What are your suggestions for forum members or composers in general who are LGBT and don’t have the abilities to be in standard heterosexual relationships and bear children?


----------



## dexterjettser (Jan 24, 2019)

I genuinely couldn’t have anticipated how this thread was going to go lol


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

Paul Cardon said:


> What are your suggestions for forum members or composers in general who are LGBT and don’t have the abilities to be in standard heterosexual relationships and bear children?



The same suggestion I have for everyone: Seriously assess the risks.

Try not to let music take precedence over other people in your life, and once-in-a-lifetime opportunities. For example, if you've got money on to burn and you're trying to decide whether to spend it to travel to GDC or Gamescom in hopes of networking to land a job, _or_ you could with your family, friends, SO on a cruise — _take the cruise._

I've seen people quit six-figure jobs and health benefits to "get into music" despite no experience in it. I've seen guys on GoFundMe beg for money to pay their bills because music isn't working out and they won't work a normal job. I've seen people who are obviously very talented in some other field refuse to even try doing that even in the meantime, because they're afraid it will cut into any music career chances. I've seen people who wanted kids, put them off for a music career that never came to be, only to suffer the heartbreak of numerous failed pregnancies and the like at a late age, and becoming the "old people" at their kids' Christmas concerts.

and every time, I've watched forum users encourage them to take these huge risks anyway.

So that's what my advice: Don't stop _trying_ with music, but for the love of god, please, please, _know that the risks in trying to make a living as a composer go way deeper than just money.
_
That's all.


----------



## D Halgren (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> The same suggestion I have for everyone: Seriously assess the risks.
> 
> Try not to let music take precedence over other people in your life, and once-in-a-lifetime opportunities. For example, if you've got money on to burn and you're trying to decide whether to spend it to travel to GDC or Gamescom in hopes of networking to land a job, _or_ you could with your family, friends, SO on a cruise — _take the cruise._
> 
> ...


Any thoughts about taking risks for music @Rctec ?


----------



## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

D Halgren said:


> Any thoughts about taking risks for music @Rctec ?



I have a better, more specific question for Hans

If you could go back in time and had to choose between your family, or your music career, what you pick?


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## D Halgren (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> I have a better, more specific question for Hans
> 
> If you could go back in time and had to choose between your family, or your music career, what you pick?


Has it ever occurred to you that it's not one or the other? Your family is there to support you and understand you.


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## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

D Halgren said:


> Has it ever occurred to you that it's not one or the other? Your family is there to support you and understand you.



Good luck raising a family on a temp. day job and the occasional beer money from music. It's not 1970s anymore.

For most us, it will wind up being one or the other.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 24, 2019)




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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> You're a self-admitted communist. Your opinions aren't even worth shit.



Okay, that and the "liberal-minded" comment don't belong outside the OT-Politics section - for one because they're silly and/or straw man arguments, but mainly because that crap is inappropriate anywhere else.

We have had reported posts to the moderators. So Ima comment here - half as a human, half as a moderator - in the hope that we can avoid a catfight.

Look, Chris, I think you've made your point: you think people are happy living a traditional life with 2.2 kids and a picket fence. Yes, the arts are saturated and most people don't manage to make a living as a composer. Got it, intellectually and personally (having spent ten years as an only intermittently successful composer/orchestrator before landing a job in my other calling, journalism).

Can we move on? Nobody is going to give up because you've converted them to your perspective, and it's just creating rancor.

Thank you in advance.


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## D Halgren (Jan 24, 2019)

Chr!s said:


> Good luck raising a family on a temp. day job and the occasional beer money from music. It's not 1970s anymore.
> 
> For most us, it will wind up being one or the other.


First of all, I do raise a family, although you never answered whether you had one or not. I assume in this family of yours there would be more than one adult that could earn money, or are women not allowed to hold jobs in your world view? Also, we are talking about library music, which can be done in ones spare time, and built into a career as you go. Thoughts?


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## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Look, Chris, I think you've made your point: you think people are happy living a traditional life with 2.2 kids and a picket fence. Yes, the arts are saturated and most people don't manage to make a living as a composer. Got it, intellectually and personally (having spent ten years as an only intermittently successful composer/orchestrator before landing a job in my other calling, journalism).
> 
> Can we move on? Nobody is going to give up because you've converted them to your perspective, and it's just creating rancor.
> 
> Thank you in advance.



Yeah


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## Nick Batzdorf (Jan 24, 2019)

> Got it, intellectually and personally (having spent ten years as an only intermittently successful composer/orchestrator before landing a job in my other calling, journalism).



By the way, I didn't mean to imply that I'm all through as a _professional composer, _as we professionals call it, just that I don't rely on it for my supper or spend 85% of my waking hours hustling for work.

Better straighten that out!


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## LamaRose (Jan 24, 2019)

Off topic: I'll have to give Chris a little love here as I have two older brothers who have been earning full-time salaries in the music biz before they graduated HS... one is in his 70's, the other in his 50's. Both are pretty cynical about the opportunities in the music biz, and have been since the late 80's. They have reason and can proffer countless rise and fall stories of countless individuals dating back to the 60's. And really, at this point in time, every profession is becoming so competitive that cynicism can derail the best laid plans of any career. 

But I have to ask Chris, since you are so into social stats and studies and whatnot, what do the studies reveal about the greatest regret that people have as they are nearing the end of their respective lives... if they could change one thing about their lives, what would it have been? Do tell!

On topic: I think @JohnG pretty much nailed it... find what you're passionate about, hop that 10,000-hour train, and ride that mother until you're the absolute best you can be at what you're doing... and maybe end up being one of the best in the world. Personally, I think the niche route is the better track... find an area underutilized or out of vogue and become the go-to guy for that style, sound, skill-set, whatever.


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## Chr!s (Jan 24, 2019)

LamaRose said:


> I'll have to give Chris a little love here



Back at ya!









LamaRose said:


> But I have to ask Chris, since you are so into social stats and studies and whatnot, what do the studies reveal about the greatest regret that people have as they are nearing the end of their respective lives... if they could change one thing about their lives, what would it have been? Do tell!



The first two things I could find:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/smart-living/this-is-the-biggest-regret-in-life-most-people-have/ar-BBR7QBi (The first states &quot;not becoming your ideal self&quot;). The stupid link to the actual study itself won't open, but it does not make mention what percentage of these people stated they were unhappy with how their lives actually turned out. 

This was the second, interviews with hospice patients, topping the list is: "I wish I had been more loving to the people who matter the most." #3 is a wish that you hadn't "Spent so much time working". "I wish I had chosen work that was meaningful for me." is on the bottom of the list.

So yeah, this all so far seems to line up with my position. Which is essentially about the divine economy of goods; the things we ought to love and place greater importance upon. There's no such thing as a regret-free life, but some regrets are a lot bigger than others. 

As you were


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## Greg (Jan 24, 2019)

Wow sorry to see your thread got hijacked by the drama! First, ignore everything Chris said, his attitude is pathetic and I'm not even sure why he is posting in this thread.

I love the neo classical style too. I think there is actually a growing demand for it in trailers. Check out this trailer, it sounds more like Max Richter than trailer music. Really cool neo classical hybrid:


I've always had this idea in my head too that I could maybe write what I kind of wanted to write but turn it into trailer music cues as well. That is a huge mistake. If you're going to write library music, you must create EXACTLY what they want and only think about serving the client. Otherwise you will be in this one foot in one foot out sort of world and in my experience it just wont work out well.

Take John's advice to heart. You have to go through that harsh realization that your work MUST be at least as good as the best of the best to have a real chance with trailer placements. Sometimes people get lucky with a lame cue landing in a big trailer but that isn't going to create a career. It is really fucking hard to create trailer music with a good shot at licensing, and even if you do, many others do it too on a weekly basis.

Write the kind of music that you love. People can always tell when someone is faking it, especially music supervisors. If they hear your work is unique and inspired, they will gravitate towards it.


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## Kony (Jan 25, 2019)

Greg said:


> Check out this trailer, it sounds more like Max Richter than trailer music.


Just checked and Max Richter is the composer for the film


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## GtrString (Jan 25, 2019)

There recently was a video on this subject on the tube. Great channel on this subject Id add..


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## Jonathan Sharp (Jan 25, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I'm totally out of the loop with this stuff. "Writing for libraries" - how does that even work? You sit in your house somewhere like a hermit and write an endless stream of some hypothetical media music, day in, day out, never talking to anyone, and upload it to some place and hope to make some money off of all that a few years down the road? Is that what people do? It can't be just that, right?



Thats pretty much it, in a simplified nutshell.
Works for me.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Jan 25, 2019)

Jonathan Sharp said:


> Thats pretty much it, in a simplified nutshell.
> Works for me.



How do you keep motivated/inspired? I imagine it's very difficult when you're kind of composing into the aether every day, without being connected to the end product or working with others and kind of bouncing off of that.


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## Jonathan Sharp (Jan 25, 2019)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> How do you keep motivated/inspired? I imagine it's very difficult when you're kind of composing into the aether every day, without being connected to the end product or working with others and kind of bouncing off of that.



It's rarely composing into the aether, mostly working to briefs or on themed albums. It's not for everybody and it's not the easy gig people imagine it to be. 
You're basically writing for publishers who's job is the selling.... so in that respect, yes you're kind of removed from that final part of the process.


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## Parsifal666 (Jan 25, 2019)

Nick Batzdorf said:


> By the way, I didn't mean to imply that I'm all through as a _professional composer, _as we professionals call it, just that I don't rely on it for my supper or spend 85% of my waking hours hustling for work.
> 
> Better straighten that out!



Me neither. I count myself as supernaturally lucky to be able to (at times barely) pay the rent with music. Supernaturally because with the rent paid I can handle an easy, eighteen hour a week part time computer job and still have tons of time to compose music I really care about...which is comprised of my (mostly) uncommissioned concert works.

The independent/trailer/commercial stuff I do takes very little time for me to write. Conversely, my concert pieces can take months, and most of that is editing.

Geez, I guess if I put in as much time toward my commissions as my personal, concert material I'd have more money lol! Nah, can't stop the art (forgive if that last word is too Can-of-Wurmy for some).


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## jmvideo (Feb 1, 2019)

dexterjettser said:


> I am interested in contemporary orchestral and neo-classical music. Stuff like olafur arnaulds, johan johansson, any Andy Blaney SF demo, etc. If I could compose music like that for libraries I would really enjoy it, but I’m not sure how much use my tracks would get.



That genre would not be a big seller. The biggest buyer for sites like AudioJungle and Premium Beat is the corporate video market, and the top sellers are usually upbeat motivational rock tracks.

The melancholy neo-classical stuff might lend well to one-off buys from TV or indie films, but unlikely to sell in volume.


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