# Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help) : FINISHED



## Damn-Deal-Done (Mar 30, 2013)

Hello,

This is my first post on this forum and I am hoping for some help. This project has me stuck at almost every corner.

I am trying to create a realistic drum instrument with full bleed control. I didn't have any previous experience with Kontakt and assumed it would have native features that would take care of most things. But that turned out to not be the case.

I have got so far with cobbled together scripts found on forums but I seem to be at a dead end and have built something up which does not work and will require starting over again.

*What I want to achieve*

I will have 6 roundrobin variations and 12 velocity layers for each piece of kit. Then on top of these each piece of kit has 11 microphones. That's a lot of samples per kit piece.

1 roundrobin with it's velocity layers will go in one group. Then there will be the corresponding roundrobin and velocity layers in other groups as follows.

Group 1 (rr1 kick mic 1 direct)
Group 2 (rr2 kick mic 1 direct)
Group 3 (rr3 kick mic 1 direct)
Group 4 (rr4 kick mic 1 direct)
Group 5 (rr5 kick mic 1 direct)
Group 6 (rr6 kick mic 1 direct)

Group 7 (rr1 kick mic 2)
Group 8 (rr2 kick mic 2)
Group 9 (rr3 kick mic 2)
Group 10 (rr4 kick mic 2)
Group 11 (rr5 kick mic 2)
Group 12 (rr6 kick mic 2)

Group 13 (rr1 kick mic 3)
Group 14 (rr2 kick mic 3)
Group 15 (rr3 kick mic 3)
Group 16 (rr4 kick mic 3)
Group 17 (rr5 kick mic 3)
Group 18 (rr6 kick mic 3)

etc, for 11 mics just for the kick hits on 1 key.

Same again for snare on second key.

*To explain the functionality needed.*
Roundrobin picks randomly from group 1 to 6. It then needs to also play the corresponding group from 7 to 12, and 13 to 18.

Hit key at velocity 70 and it randomly picks the sample in group 4 matching that velocity as mapped out on the key editor, I would then require roundrobin group 10 and group 16 to play at the same time.

Some sort of if statement. If group 4 plays, also play group 10 and 16.

This would then need doing for each part of the drum kit.

Key 1 (Kick)
Group 1 to 6 (Mic 1 Direct) Picked at random.
Synced to group 7 to 12 (Mic 2), 13 to 18 (Mic 3)

then

Key 2 (Snare)
Group 19 to 24 (Mic 1) Picked at random.
Synced to group 25 to 30 (Mic 2 Direct), 31 to 36 (Mic 3)

etc

I would then need a way to have specific groups controlled with one dial.

For instance a PAN dial for all the microphones belonging to the kick. Group 1 to 6, 19 to 24.

And a PAN dial for all the microphones belonging to the snare. Groups 7 to 12, 25 to 30.

etc

Then individual volumes for each set of 6 groups. 1 to 6 volume. 7 to 12 volume. 13 to 18 volume. 19 to 24 volume. etc. This would be the bleed control.

I would then use an insert plug-in to control the volume of each microphone, this way keeping the relative volume of the bleed dial.

This would be an insert effect to control gain on every group. Then a dial set to controls the same specific groups as the PAN dial, for this gain plug-in.

That will be all there is to it. In essence not that complex. It only gets difficult when factoring in the amount of samples and groups which the tediousness I am now used to after spending days editing samples and recording the things.

Any help, pointers, comments, recommendations, pre written scripts, collaborations, would be greatly appreciated.

If this is not possible I may rethink this assignment and remove the bleed control all together and hard print the bleed to the direct samples.

Many thanks,
Jo


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## wst3 (Mar 30, 2013)

I think it's a great idea!!!

I wish I had the chops to help, but I do want to encourage you to keep at it.

My primary drum library is Superior from Toontrack, largely because the bleed control is so flexible.

To give you an idea - I can use three microphones (they provide individual microphones) on kick, snare/hat, and overhead, and add bleed to fill in the sound. It gets quite close to what I'd expect in a real room with a real kit...


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## Damn-Deal-Done (Mar 30, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help)*

Yes, Superior was extensively analysed. Now I have hours of drums samples all split into their individual bleeds. 6 roundrobin and 12 velocities for 11 mics. And I have no clue what I am doing with the scripting side. This project can only be done with scripting. Now I know that I am starting to get the fear. Put so much work into it but can't get anywhere else without some help. I know how it all fits together and the logistics of it but scripting has me stumped.


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## Tod (Mar 30, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help)*



Damn-Deal-Done @ Sat Mar 30 said:


> Yes, Superior was extensively analysed. Now I have hours of drums samples all split into their individual bleeds. 6 roundrobin and 12 velocities for 11 mics. And I have no clue what I am doing with the scripting side. This project can only be done with scripting. Now I know that I am starting to get the fear. Put so much work into it but can't get anywhere else without some help. I know how it all fits together and the logistics of it but scripting has me stumped.



Hi Jo, I don't think the script you're talking about is that hard to put together but it could be a little awkward.

So you've got 11 separate mics and non of them are configured stereo? >8o 

The problem that I see is the GUI could get messy and/or complicated. Do you want Pan controls for each mic? Do you want Mute buttons for each mic? Do you want phase buttons for each mic? How about solo?

Counting the Volume control, that would be 55 knobs or sliders.

Heh heh, I guess with this old brain of mine I'd have to say that 11 separate microphones is really thinking out-of-the-box, maybe you could explain a little more? :mrgreen:


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## Damn-Deal-Done (Mar 30, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help)*

11 mic's is pretty standard for drums. Kick, Snare, Tom x3, Hi Hat, Ride, Overhead x2 and Room x2. No stereo samples. All treated individually.

But I would not worry about the interface or if it will be cluttered. That will be my problem as well as the tedium of inputting so many samples in to Kontakt and a script.

11 mic channels featuring 11 small sliders for bleed vol, 1 pan, 1 vol (from effect plugin).

The major thing will be being able to sync the different "groups" of groups so the roundrobin bleed sample is the correct one that matches the roundrobin direct sample. It seems info on something like this is hard to find.

I've downloaded a few drum instruments for kontakt that I will study tomorrow to see if there's something similar in one of them.

If anyone knows how to do this or how to be able to script things pertaining to specific groups. That would get me in the right direction.

Just want to keep it simple. Raw recording with total control. Nothing fancy.

[EDIT]

Sorry yes. The dials for the stereo channels would be combined, less the pan which would be kept for both left and right channels.


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## Tod (Mar 31, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help)*



Damn-Deal-Done @ Sat Mar 30 said:


> 11 mic's is pretty standard for drums. Kick, Snare, Tom x3, Hi Hat, Ride, Overhead x2 and Room x2. No stereo samples. All treated individually.



Heh heh, sorry, drums are usually recorded one kit piece at a time and I misunderstood, I thought you were using 11 mics for each kit piece. :oops: :mrgreen: 

A little while back I helped a guy out with his drums. The kit peices were basically separated into separate nki files. He had 8 round robins and 8 velo layers. 

http://stash.reaper.fm/16044/KMS Toms (1 Pict) 1.PNG

Are you wanting to do all this with just one nki file? That can get a little harder simply by the shear numbers, but it can be done.  



> The major thing will be being able to sync the different "groups" of groups so the roundrobin bleed sample is the correct one that matches the roundrobin direct sample. It seems info on something like this is hard to find.



If you organize your groups in an orderly manner and load your samples appropriately it's not that hard to keep things straight. It's just some simple math to keep the mics playing in the right order.


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## Damn-Deal-Done (Apr 1, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help)*

Yes. I'm going to get a system for just a kick and snare, then once it is working fully I can scale it up with the rest of the kit.

I downloaded Abbey Road Modern Drums and it does what I am trying to do. Now I am trying to study the script and figure our what parts do it.

This will be the logical order of the groups.


```
{Kick (Key 1)}
						{mic 1}		0,      1,2,3,4,5,...
						{mic 2}		6,      7,8,9,10,11,...
						{mic 3}		12,     13,14,15,16,...
						{mic 4}		17,     18,19,20,21,22,...
						{mic 5}		23,     24,25,26,27,28,...
						{mic 6}		29,     30,31,32,33,34,...
						{mic 7}		35,     36,37,38,39,40,...
						{mic 8}		41,     42,43,44,45,46,...
						{mic 9}		47,     48,49,50,51,52,...
						{mic 10}		53,     54,55,56,57,58,...
						{mic 11}   	59,     60,61,62,63,64,...
{Snare (Key 2)}
						{mic 1}		65,     66,67,68,69,70,...
						{mic 2}		71,     72,73,74,75,76,...
						{mic 3}		77,     78,79,80,81,82,...
						{mic 4}		83,     84,85,86,87,88,...
						{mic 5}		89,     90,91,92,93,94,...
						{mic 6}		95,     96,97,98,99,100,...
						{mic 7}		101,    102,103,104,105,106,...
						{mic 8}		107,    108,109,110,111,112,...
						{mic 9}		113,    114,115,116,117,118,...
						{mic 10}		119,    120,121,122,123,124,...
						{mic 11}	        125,    126,127,128,129,130,...
```

Yes I think keeping it in one instrument would be best. Keeping it to just the kick and snare to get a working instrument and then sa and when time allows I will add the rest piece by piece.

Any ideas?

Cheers


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## Damn-Deal-Done (Apr 1, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help)*

Here is the best explanation of what I need to do. Can't anyone help?



```
{Group Lists per Instrument
	--------------------------
	#1: Group index of the 1st mic
	#2: Group index of the 2nd mic
	#3: Group index of the 3rd mic
	#4: Group index of the 4th mic
	#5: Group index of the 5th mic
	#6: Group index of the 6th mic
	#7: Group index of the 7th mic
	#8: Group index of the 8th mic
	#9: Group index of the 9th mic
	#10: Group index of the 10th mic
	#11: Group index of the 11th mic
	
	List of groups equals 6 roundrobin variations}

     {KEY}          {KIT PIECE}                     {MIC}              {ROUNDROBIN GROUPS}
     {C-2}          {Kick}                          {1}               0,1,2,3,4,5,
                                                    {2}               6,7,8,9,10,11,
                                                    {3}               12,13,14,15,16,
                                                    {4}               17,18,19,20,21,22,
                                                    {5}               23,24,25,26,27,28,
                                                    {6}               29,30,31,32,33,34,
                                                    {7}               35,36,37,38,39,40,
                                                    {8}               41,42,43,44,45,46,
                                                    {9}               47,48,49,50,51,52,
                                                    {10}             53,54,55,56,57,58,
                                                    {11}             59,60,61,62,63,64,
     {D-2}          {Snare}                       {1}               65,66,67,68,69,70,
                                                    {2}               71,72,73,74,75,76,
                                                    {3}               77,78,79,80,81,82,
                                                    {4}               83,84,85,86,87,88,
                                                    {5}               89,90,91,92,93,94,
                                                    {6}               95,96,97,98,99,100,
                                                    {7}               101,102,103,104,105,106,
                                                    {8}               107,108,109,110,111,112,
                                                    {9}               113,114,115,116,117,118,
                                                    {10}             119,120,121,122,123,124,
                                                    {11}             125,126,127,128,129,130,


{{{{Things that need implementing}}}}

{...1...
Hitting C-2 will play a random ROUNDROBIN group of mic1
The corresponding group of Mic2 to mic11 will also play at the same time
so all 11 microphones play their matching sample simultaneously.
Each Key will have the same system with its sample groups.
}


{...2...
Every separate mic will have its own individual VOLUME dial
...Example...
First VOLUME dial to control groups of Kick mic1
Second VOLUME dial to control groups of Kick mic2
Third VOLUME dial to control groups of Kick mic3
Fourth VOLUME dial to control...
etc
Twelfth VOLUME dial to control groups of Snare mic1,
Thirteenth VOLUME dial to control groups of Snare mic2,
Fourteenth VOLUME dial to control groups of Snare mic2,
Fifteenth VOLUME dial to control...
etc
}

{...3...
Each microphone channel will be controlled with its own PAN dial
...Example...
First PAN dial to control groups of Kick Mic1+Snare Mic1,
Second PAN dial to control groups of Kick mic2+Snare mic2,
Third PAN dial to control groups of Kick mic3+Snare mic3,
Fourth PAN dial to control groups of Kick mic4+Snare mic4,
etc
}

{...4...
Each microphone channel will be controlled with its volume dial
But to keep the relative levels of the individual mic volume levels
a plug-in will be placed on every group 'post-amp'. The plug-ins volume
will be used to control the overall volume of each microphone channel.
...Example...
First PLUGIN VOLUME dial to control groups of Kick Mic1+Snare Mic1,
Second PLUGIN VOLUME dial to control groups of Kick mic2+Snare mic2,
Third PLUGIN VOLUME dial to control groups of Kick mic3+Snare mic3,
Fourth PLUGIN VOLUME dial to control groups of Kick mic4+Snare mic4,
etc
}
```

NKI and samples available on request.

Thanks


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## Tod (Apr 1, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help)*



Damn-Deal-Done @ Mon Apr 01 said:


> Here is the best explanation of what I need to do. Can't anyone help?



I'd love to try and help you Damn-Deal-Done, but I have to admit I'm totally confused as to what exactly you're trying to do. 

How did you record these drums? 

You keep talking about the 11 mics, are you saying you want to use all 11 mics for each piece of drum kit?

Do you have stereo overheads or room mics?

For example, on the Snare and the Toms, for the guy I helped, that I mentioned above, he had mics on the top & bottom as well as a pair of overheads along with a pair of Room mics. The overheads were in closer proximity to the drums than the room mics were. This was a total 6 mics in 4 positions or locations. The important aspect of this is the 4 positions because that's what the script will control.

These things are very important as to how the Groups are set up.


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## Lindon (Apr 2, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help)*

This sounds a little like an instrument I've been working on this last 6 months. As Tod says its all about laying out the groups correctly and routing them through the bus channels so Kontakt 5.

PM me and we can talk..

Lindon


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## Damn-Deal-Done (Apr 23, 2013)

*Re: Drum Instrument with Full Bleed Control (Script Help) FINISHED*

I have finished the first version of what will be an on going project.

LAZY Drummer.

Not the best name but I didn't want to waste time trying to come up with something better.

Full bleed control. (if there's another full bleed kontakt engine let me know)
Individual bleed volume and purge.
Between 5 and 12 velocity layers on all the articulations.
6 roundrobin variations for every piece of kit.
Currently at 5016 samples with more to edit.

It sounds great.

I worked ridiculously hard on this for over 4 weeks straight of 13 hours days.


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