# Epic trombones...!?



## tls (Jan 11, 2012)

Good day all,

'Epic' got your attention right? Hehe. I think that's the magic word on this forum.

Anyway, here goes.

When I'm making these kinds of big epic sound pictures with horns and strings I kinda don't find a place for the trombones. I may use the horns to play the lead line, and I may add some trumpets to make the sound a little bit more "crispy". Also, the tuba works great in the bass line. However, where should I use the trombones? I could probably have the trombones to play the second melody line or something, but I don't feel I actually need them since the cellos/violas do a great job (and we could probably agree on that I shouldn't include them then). However, I wonder what the "theory" says about this. Is there anybody here that possesses any information about this? What would known composers do? I feel it would be too much to use trombones (divisi) in an open chord wise manner.


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## bryla (Jan 11, 2012)

trombones don't play 'divisi' - that's a string term. I would look up famous scores that sound epic. Planets, Daphnis for example or some Rachmaninoff and see how the trombones play in those particular places.

Since you mention the cellos/violas do a great job by themselves you should look at how the trombones complement these two - how trombones/vcl/vca are voiced - also take the bassoon into account on this one.


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## Alex Temple (Jan 11, 2012)

It depends what kind of sound you're going for. Doubling trombones with violas or celli will give the tone more weight but it will also soften the natural bite you'd get from the trombones. If you want a really heavy unison line, placing the trombones in unison with the tuba gives a pretty massive sound that can usually cut through any texture. Putting the tuba an octave down will give a deeper sound that you feel more than you hear, especially if you double that with the contrabassoon too.

That said, it's not uncommon in loud tutti passages where the horns or trumpets are playing a ff melody to have the trombones just playing chords, but at a softer mf dynamic. It helps to really fill out the tone of the chord, especially if the other accompaniment moves around quickly (dancing string runs and such).


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## Lex (Jan 11, 2012)

tls @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> Good day all,
> 
> 'Epic' got your attention right? Hehe. I think that's the magic word on this forum.
> 
> ...



http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Orchestration-Dover-Books-Music/dp/0486212661/ref=pd_cp_b_1 (http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Orches ... =pd_cp_b_1)

alex


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## Udo (Jan 11, 2012)

http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line (www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdispl ... on-On-line)


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## tls (Jan 11, 2012)

Thanks to all! And an extra thanks to Temple for the examples! I guess I'll revisit the trombones then. 

bryla: Yes, but what is the term for trombones playing a chord? Maybe none at all?


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## rgames (Jan 11, 2012)

tls @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> When I'm making these kinds of big epic sound pictures with horns and strings I kinda don't find a place for the trombones.


So write something else! 

Trombones are great for adding interest to the bass line without adding too much weight. I like to use them that way, anyway. Adding the movement to the entire bass line gets too heavy sometimes - using only the bones gives it that little bit of motion without too much weight.

Here's an example that I did recently: http://soundcloud.com/richard-ames/flight-of-the-mighty

Also uses a bones feature at the end - I like that, too 

Hey - I've used that track twice as an example of two different things in the last couple days! Other was VSL WW in fast runs.

rgames


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## handz (Jan 11, 2012)

I found it strange you have troubles fitting bones into comp as they are usually very easy to wirk with in epic stuff, I sometimes have problems with trumpets that especially with samples are bit tricky. 

Alex uncluded some very nice examples - Williams using them for playing short note chords as a rhytm a lot in SW action music, they also sounds very nice in unison for melodic epsic lines. It depends what samples you are working with for sure as for example I had always problems with Violas in many libs - as they not fit anywhere but once I get some neat libs problem is gone.


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## Cinesamples (Jan 11, 2012)

Cimbasso is also a great instrument for getting those 'blats' we all love.
CineBrass CORE has some nasty ones.

Mike


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## RiffWraith (Jan 11, 2012)

Trombones can:

Play 1 octave above tuba
Play 1 octave below the horns
Play 1 octave below the trumpets
Play intervals above and below all three

Write a horn line over a string pad. Make the strings play extended bowing, and make it a D. Make the horn line play D C D. Now have the trombones play A G A below.

See how nice that is? 

Write a sting line which is D E F. Or do an extened bowing on the D. Make the horn line play D E F. Now have the trombones play Bb C D

See how nice that is? 

Cheers.


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## RiffWraith (Jan 11, 2012)

bryla @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> trombones don't play 'divisi' - that's a string term.



It's not just a string term - it's also used for choir.

So, when you have this:







That's not divisi? What is it called then?


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## ed buller (Jan 12, 2012)

This is exactly the sort of question that the scott smalley course answers . There is one lesson just for the brass in Danny Elfmans Batman alone.

The trombones are the " no11" of the Brass. They will blow the horns out of the water. usually best in the octave below middle C . Either playing chords or unison. They are much brighter than horns and cut right through the orchestra . Trumpets at the top of their range are as loud. You need two horns to equal one trombone. Epic horns in unison IS a big hollywood cliche. "the mummy" "lord of the rings" there is a long list but trombones are there too. "Imperial march" from star wars get's most of it's power from the trombones.

One thing that Scott Smalley does that is very cool is "pyramiding" (sic) the brass. Start a line in unison on, say the french horns then spilt it out to harmony. Then add another instrument and do the same. These are my notes from listening to the lesson:


"22. Batman - "shootout"



Bar 59-62 4/4

French horns:

Begin in Unison on C playing the 6 note "batman" Theme. (C,D,Eb,Ab,G,Gb )
on the third note ( Eb) they split, 4 playing the Eb and two playing the C. 
On the downbeat of bar 60 they Play an Ab Maj Chord . Reading from bottom up. Ab C Eb Ab . With the top note being played by two horns.
This is played for two bars

Trombones:

Likewise in bar 59 they follow the melody an octave below the french horns splitting into Octaves on the down beat of Bar 60 . With the top two climbing A B Cb, whilst the lower two hold the lower A. In Bar 61 They play the Ab Maj chord an Octave below the horns with The bottom Ab being played as 4 notes ( eight,quarter,quarter,eight) through the bar.

Tuba

Double the low Trombone ( Ab) in Bar 61 an Octave below"

hope that helps

ed


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## Daryl (Jan 12, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> So, when you have this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Divisi implies that the whole is divided. Horns are solo instruments, so rather than dividing, they are just playing normally. Horns combine to play less polyphonic parts. String sections divide to play more.

BTW your example illustrates perfectly the "wrong" way to voice Horns. 1 & 3 should be the high ones and 2 & 4 the low ones. Therefore the order of notes starting at the top of the chord should be 1,3,2,4. What you have shown is an example of a film orchestrator short cut. :wink: 

D


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## mducharme (Jan 12, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



I asked Scott Smalley about that during his orchestration seminar when I took it a few years back - he suggested simply marking the top stave 1 and 3 and the bottom stave 2 and 4 as a label as an alternative to voicing the horns differently (as it can look wonky).


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## Daryl (Jan 12, 2012)

mducharme @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 12 said:
> ...


However, for people who are used to conducting "proper" music, as opposed to film stuff, it just looks wrong. You must also remember that in LA most scores are written in C (i.e. not transposed) because many composers can't read transposed scores. :lol: 

D


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## RiffWraith (Jan 12, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> Divisi implies that the whole is divided. Horns are solo instruments, so rather than dividing, they are just playing normally.



That the whole _what_ is divided? Horns are no more solo instruments than violins are solo instruments. The violins are a section; the horns are a section.

I guess there is no _div_ markings, b/c one horn cant play a chord. Therefore, when you see that (what I posted), it can only be played one way - each horn takes one note. Whereas if it's a string section, the players wouldn't know if the first stand and second stand take different notes, or if they all play double stops. With horns (as well as every other instrument) there can't be chords/dbl stops, so....



Daryl @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> BTW your example illustrates perfectly the "wrong" way to voice Horns.



Eh, that's a screen shot from ET. You want to tell JW he did it wrong? PM me, I'll give you his phone # :lol:


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## Daryl (Jan 12, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Divisi implies that the whole is divided. Horns are solo instruments, so rather than dividing, they are just playing normally.
> ...


The idea of a horn section is a much more modern idea then a violin section. it has nothing to do with double stopping. However, unless you are going to work with live players, I guess it doesn't really matter. 



RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > BTW your example illustrates perfectly the "wrong" way to voice Horns.
> ...


AFAIK the ET score was hand written, so it can't be a screenshot from ET. I also don't think he orchestrated it, so if the voicing was technically incorrect, it would be the decision of the orchestrator.

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 12, 2012)

Daryl's point is that L.A. film score conventions do not always directly mirror concert hall music conventions and he is correct.

That said, assuming it is 3 tenor trombones and 1 bass trombone, it is a distinction without a difference musically.


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## mducharme (Jan 12, 2012)

RiffWraith @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> Daryl @ Thu Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > Divisi implies that the whole is divided. Horns are solo instruments, so rather than dividing, they are just playing normally.
> ...



It really comes down to us still using traditional terminology. Brass instruments have historically not played in unison often. They almost always have played chords of some kind in harmony. Our idea of using these brass instruments in unison is about as old as the valve trumpet and horn, when the instruments started becoming more capable in the late romantic era. With horns, when you have them in unison, you are taking instruments that traditionally played individual lines and are putting them together. With violins in an orchestra setting, all 1st violins traditionally played the same line as all other first violins, and splitting them up was the exception.

I agree very much with Daryl on the terminology - horn players and orchestra conductors may look at you really strange if you say "divisi" for something that is not strings or choir. The reason for this does not make sense anymore, we are stuck with it because of tradition.


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## mducharme (Jan 12, 2012)

Another example - why are horns above Trumpets on a full score? Traditionally, they played with the winds and were grouped with them, which was a good reason. Now, we use them most often as part of the brass choir in the orchestra. It would make sense logically to have them in between the trumpets and the trombones on the full score. Obviously you cannot actually do so - if you did it would cause practical problems where the conductor would be looking in the wrong place for the horns, but it would certainly be more logical.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 12, 2012)

Once again, things are different in LA. I have seen and done lots of score prep where the horns are between the tpts and bones and L.A. conductors adjust with no problem.

Form follows function.


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## Daryl (Jan 12, 2012)

mducharme @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> I agree very much with Daryl on the terminology - horn players and orchestra conductors may look at you really strange if you say "divisi" for something that is not strings or choir. The reason for this does not make sense anymore, we are stuck with it because of tradition.


It sort of does make sense, when you consider that live film scores are an insignificant part of orchestral playing in general. All orchestral players will have been trained by performing the concert repertoire from the last 250-300 years, so are more used to the conventions contained within those scores. A trained conductor will expect to see Horns above Brass, and even though most film music conductors are not trained as such, they are usually trained orchestrators. This means that when time is of an issue, it can be much clearer to have a score laid out in a traditional way.

I also think that the voicing of horns that matches the voicing of trumpets (i.e. top to bottom) is sometimes there mainly because it is clearer to read for the composer. As is the "Score in C" tradition. In fact I was even instructed by one composer to take tenor clefs out, because he didn't like to read them. :lol: 

Having said that, when I work for myself (which is most of the time these days) I ignore LA tradition, and set the score out the way I am used to, because it is easier for me to read that way.

D


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## JohnG (Jan 12, 2012)

My own view about how things are orchestrated in LA is speed -- whatever is fastest. The conductors and composers here are perfectly able to work with a transposed score, though it's less common. But using a concert score reduces errors and allows one to diagnose problems slightly faster. Of course the parts are transposed, as normal. 

Communication with the players is done both ways -- "everyone at bar 44 downbeat should have a concert pitch in a B-minor chord" or "clarinets do you have a written e-natural there?"

Whether or not FHNs are printed the way they are with classical scores seems immaterial to me, as do most of the other conventions. Sure, conductors are accustomed to seeing winds, horns brass percussion strings (top to bottom), and I don't recall big variations on that. That said, honouring convention doesn't really matter to what one hears.


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## Daryl (Jan 12, 2012)

JohnG @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> My own view about how things are orchestrated in LA is speed -- whatever is fastest. The conductors and composers here are perfectly able to work with a transposed score, though it's less common. But using a concert score reduces errors and allows one to diagnose problems slightly faster. Of course the parts are transposed, as normal.


I would agree that speed is often of utmost importance for film work, but a C score is not necessarily quicker to rehearse, for examples if the Horns are very low, it can mean counting leger lines, or swapping to the bass clef, which can be much slower to read for the conductor. Also if someone is used to reading transposed scores, C scores can be a pain. I certainly find them so, and feel the same way about scores for concert pieces that are all untransposed. In fact some of them have instruments like the Cor Anglais in the Alto Clef, which feels very strange. :lol: 

As for composers being happy with a transposed score, I'm not so sure. Even composers who have plenty of training are not necessarily fluent at reading a score, as they will no doubt have had relatively little practice, composing workflow being what it is these days. The other thing to remember is that they probably have never seen the score to their music before, as the last time they saw it, the sequencer was playing. Even if you know what a score sounds like, an unfamiliar layout can still make things difficult. Which is why I say yhy many composers are not able to read a transposed score. :wink: 

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 12, 2012)

Daryl @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> JohnG @ Thu Jan 12 said:
> 
> 
> > My own view about how things are orchestrated in LA is speed -- whatever is fastest. The conductors and composers here are perfectly able to work with a transposed score, though it's less common. But using a concert score reduces errors and allows one to diagnose problems slightly faster. Of course the parts are transposed, as normal.
> ...



When I studied orchestration with Albert Harris, one of the first pieces of advice he gave me was to get used to working with transposed scores.


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## Daryl (Jan 12, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Thu Jan 12 said:


> When I studied orchestration with Albert Harris, one of the first pieces of advice he gave me was to get used to working with transposed scores.


One of the most important thing for the student, IMO, is that transposed scores often give a feeling of where in the register of the instrument the passage lies by the look on the stave. A C score doesn't really help on that one, so I would agree with that advice.

D


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## tls (Jan 15, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!


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## Jeffrey Peterson (Jan 15, 2012)

bryla @ Wed Jan 11 said:


> trombones don't play 'divisi' - that's a string term. I would look up famous scores that sound epic. Planets, Daphnis for example or some Rachmaninoff and see how the trombones play in those particular places.
> 
> Since you mention the cellos/violas do a great job by themselves you should look at how the trombones complement these two - how trombones/vcl/vca are voiced - also take the bassoon into account on this one.



Divisi is not used exclusively for strings. It is used for any section in a tradition orchestra. Before you correct someone in a short manner, make sure you know what your talking about.


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## Daryl (Jan 15, 2012)

Jeffrey Peterson @ Sun Jan 15 said:


> bryla @ Wed Jan 11 said:
> 
> 
> > trombones don't play 'divisi' - that's a string term. I would look up famous scores that sound epic. Planets, Daphnis for example or some Rachmaninoff and see how the trombones play in those particular places.
> ...


You may be correct, but I've never seen it for any section except string sections. Can you give any examples?

D


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## rgames (Jan 15, 2012)

The term "divisi" can be used for any instrument - each instrumental section often plays several notes (e.g. 1st flute, 2nd flute, 3rd flute all playing different notes). Polyphonic writing within a section (or desk) is, technically, divisi writing.

However, it really only makes sense to notate it as such for stringed instruments because you have to tell the string players whether each player is supposed to play all the notes or only one of the notes. If it's written "divisi" then each player plays only one of the notes. If it's written "non-divisi" then each player plays all of the notes.

When a wind player sees a polyphonic part, he knows that it's supposed to be one person per note (i.e., divisi) because winds are not (generally) polyphonic instruments. Strings are polyphonic, so a string player does not know if he should play all notes or just one (unless it's clearly impossible to play), so it has to be notated.

So the question is not whether you write divisi parts, it's how you notate them. For WW, it doesn't matter - they'll always play divisi. For strings, best bet is to notate your intention.

rgames


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## bryla (Jan 15, 2012)

rgames @ Sun Jan 15 said:


> When a wind player sees a polyphonic part, he knows that it's supposed to be one person per note (i.e., divisi) because winds are not (generally) polyphonic instruments. Strings are polyphonic, so a string player does not know if he should play all notes or just one (unless it's clearly impossible to play), so it has to be notated.


Well the problem is: a wind player NEVER sees a polyphonic part. So why the h*** tell them: "btw your neighbour plays a different note."
They NEVER have to deal with notes that they don't have to play except on cues. They don't want their neighbours part in there, so that they can decide between the section, who plays what note for 4 flutes. It's not divisi - it's simply polyphony.

Jeffrey if you correct someone, know what you are correcting. I said divisi is a 'string term' - granted I forgot about choirs - but it's never used for winds in scores, parts, rehearsals etc.


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## Daryl (Jan 15, 2012)

bryla @ Sun Jan 15 said:


> rgames @ Sun Jan 15 said:
> 
> 
> > When a wind player sees a polyphonic part, he knows that it's supposed to be one person per note (i.e., divisi) because winds are not (generally) polyphonic instruments. Strings are polyphonic, so a string player does not know if he should play all notes or just one (unless it's clearly impossible to play), so it has to be notated.
> ...


Of course when you do write 3 flutes (for example) on one stave, you always use 1. 1.2 a3 (etc.). 

D


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## bryla (Jan 15, 2012)

not in the part! only in the score, to let the conductor know who to adress.


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## Daryl (Jan 15, 2012)

bryla @ Sun Jan 15 said:


> not in the part! only in the score, to let the conductor know who to adress.


The parts are not always split up in commercial music, for a variety of reasons (not least speed of music prep.), but I would agree that the traditional use for the markings are for the conductor's benefit.

D


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## rgames (Jan 15, 2012)

bryla @ Sun Jan 15 said:


> wind player NEVER sees a polyphonic part.


That's not true - it's common practice to write polyphonic parts for wind players (I'm a clarinetist and have seen them on numerous occasions). Generally, higher chairs play the higher notes and lower chairs play the lower notes. Again, the part almost never says "divisi" because it's understood that it's supposed to be played divisi when it's on a wind part.

rgames


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## bryla (Jan 16, 2012)

sorry then. The orchestras I've worked with - commercial and concert - in Europe would never do that, and the musicians would hate you. So I would rather loose two hours of sleep in music prep to do this properly. It also has a huge disadvantage in: fast music, runs that may or may not cross, chords that have less notes than the number of musicians - again the faster the tempo... So I would make sure they could play it on first go.

And again: It's a term that is never used, haven't heard any conductor, arranger, musician use the term for winds.


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2012)

bryla @ Mon Jan 16 said:


> sorry then. The orchestras I've worked with - commercial and concert - in Europe would never do that, and the musicians would hate you. So I would rather loose two hours of sleep in music prep to do this properly. It also has a huge disadvantage in: fast music, runs that may or may not cross, chords that have less notes than the number of musicians - again the faster the tempo... So I would make sure they could play it on first go.



I'm sure Richard is only speaking for his experiences, which may not be as exhaustive as yours, but I think talking about losing 2 hours sleep is naive. When doing music prep for sessions, time has to be very carefully managed, and if it is a choice between splitting all parts up properly, but not getting all the music done in time, or splitting the necessary ones up and leaving a few as multi player, as long as they are still clear, I know what my preference would be.

FWIW session musicians never hate anyone, because they get paid better for sessions than they do for concerts, and they have no right to the work, i.e. the whole orchestra can be fired and never booked again. That is why the behaviour of certain musicians is always better on a session than in their normal concert work. :wink: 

As far as I'm concerned, I couldn't give a rat's arse whether or not one or more musicians on a session hate me. Why would I? As long as they play well, I have no need to become friends with them. I have plenty of those already. :lol: 


bryla @ Mon Jan 16 said:


> And again: It's a term that is never used, haven't heard any conductor, arranger, musician use the term for winds.


I agree, and I'm drawing on 25 years of conducting and orchestrating for professional orchestras for concerts, music sessions, film/TV sessions and theatre.

D


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## rgames (Jan 16, 2012)

bryla @ Mon Jan 16 said:


> sorry then. The orchestras I've worked with - commercial and concert - in Europe would never do that, and the musicians would hate you. So I would rather loose two hours of sleep in music prep to do this properly. It also has a huge disadvantage in: fast music, runs that may or may not cross, chords that have less notes than the number of musicians - again the faster the tempo... So I would make sure they could play it on first go.
> 
> And again: It's a term that is never used, haven't heard any conductor, arranger, musician use the term for winds.


Also, it's much more common in pit/studio orchestras and concert band music (where the ensemble might have 15 or 20 clarinets, for example). I don't see it that often in traditional concert repertoire.

Especially for gigs like pit/studio orchestras it makes a lot of sense: the copyist only has to prepare a single part for multiple instrumentalists. So it saves a lot of time and potential mistakes. Of course, if 95% of the part is divisi, then it makes sense to create separate parts. But if 95% of the part is unison, then the 5% where it's divisi can be written polyphonically and save a lot of time and bookkeeping.

rgames


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 16, 2012)

Whatever you do, correct or incorrect, in L.A. it is simple: if the players like and respect you, they will make you look good, If they do not, they will not.

So while you do not need them to be your "friends", you sure as hell want to make the music as easy for them to read as possible and use proper terminology.


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jan 16 said:


> Whatever you do, correct or incorrect, in L.A. it is simple: if the players like and respect you, they will make you look good, If they do not, they will not.
> 
> So while you do not need them to be your "friends", you sure as hell want to make the music as easy for them to read as possible and use proper terminology.


I think this deserves a thread all on its own really, because "like" in terms of working with a client, is such a multi-faceted word that I don't really think it's helpful to discuss it here.

FWIW I have only worked in LA for about 5 months (a decade ago) but apparently the players "really liked" me. :lol: 

D


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## EastWest Lurker (Jan 16, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon Jan 16 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever you do, correct or incorrect, in L.A. it is simple: if the players like and respect you, they will make you look good, If they do not, they will not.
> ...



You are a likable guy, Daryl.


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## Daryl (Jan 16, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jan 16 said:


> Daryl @ Mon Jan 16 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jan 16 said:
> ...


When I'm not being difficult, weird or precious. 8) 

D


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