# Really need some feedback on my piece



## Andrajas (Dec 26, 2015)

Hello,


So, I entered the 8Dio Standout competition this year with this piece. I was happy with the result and thought that this is the best piece I've written so far in my career. I said to myself all the time that it will be impossible to win a prize in this contest, but somehow I felt "Maybe I have a chance". The announcement came out yesterday and of course, I didn't win anything. This really made me think about me and my composing.

I mean, so many people seem to be a lot "better" than me when it comes to compose, produce etc. Ofcourse, everybody can feel this way cause someone will always be better, but I somehow feel so "mediocre" and it just doesn't feel good since I just have 6 months to graduation in school. All this just made me worried and nervous and made me think that this piece is not so good after all...

So, what do you think of the piece? What is good and what is bad? What can I improve? Would really like some feedback from you guys since this is a great community with lots of skills and talent.

To clarify, I'm not disappointed that I didn't win anything, I'm more disappointed of my sound and skills when comparing with the winners, that I seem to be so far away of sounding professional and not mediocre

Cheers,


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## Guido Negraszus (Dec 26, 2015)

Seriously man: THIS IS FANTASTIC. The sound, the atmosphere, the emotions, the climax. Don't doubt your skill. The only mistake you made was to enter the competition. I stopped this many years ago. Especially someone with your skill can only feel disappointed. Think about it: a competition like that there will be probably 100s of entries, no idea but I can imagine. So in the end 100s will not win. Of course, 8DIO will say: oh, there were sooooo many great tracks blah blah blah but who wants to hear that? 

I would love to know what equipment you used in this track. 

Good luck!


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## Fer (Dec 26, 2015)

Hi Andrajas, i liked your composition and i think that it has strong points. It sounds good, and it have a well balanced structure. Just to add some constructive criticism i would say to my ears, the theme itself wants a more explosive conclussion of the melodic motiv, just before everything gets quiet and paceful again at the end.

I have founded that during the composition proccess one is blind to certain things that are going on the music you are doing. So just when i think that I am satyisfied and that everything is OK, instead of doing the final mixdown i wait; two or three days later i play the whole thing again with fresh ears and discover some issues that were not perceived at the begining and need some changes...


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## dannymc (Dec 26, 2015)

hi Andrajas sorry to hear your disappointment on not winning. here's my feedback but take my points with a grain of salt as i"m not too long at this.

i thought the mood and atmosphere of the piece were great, i really enjoyed the opening but after that the theme just didn't develop as i would of expected. that 4 note/chord structure just repeats and repeats. (i get stuck in this awful habit myself) this is fine to a point but when you got to the 2min mark you dont introduce any new variation. it kinda seems a bit empty here like its missing some elements. also the choir is quite lost in the mix at this point, it might of been better to have the choir up out in front at this point. then the exact same theme begins again at 3mins, i know you change it slightly with an octave change etc but its still pretty much identical. this is where your orchestration skills you're learning in school need to come in. making use of other instruments for variation and color. also that sub bassline that comes in doesn't really fit to my ears. not sure if its just the wrong rhythm you've got going or just the synth itself is wrong. that strange key change you do at 4mins really doesn't work for me sounds like forced variation but it just doesn't fit the mood to my ears.

anyway as i said i"m not expert at this just reviewing from a listeners perspective but don't doubt your talent its definitely there 

Danny


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## markleake (Dec 26, 2015)

Hey Andrajas, I agree pretty much exactly with what Danny said. It is actually a very good piece, and I think we'll produced, but if I were to be picky, I would say:

1. The main theme doesn't develop enough. It really is the same 4 notes that are very much the same all the way through. That can be great if you build on it lots, but I'm feeling you don't enough.
2. The key change at 4:00 doesn't need to happen, it seems forced.
3. You are using the orchestra, but in a similar way to which 99% of all composers that know their stuff would also be able to.
4. I think you leave it too late in the track to start building it into a much bigger sound. The soft section in the middle, although it sounds nice, is really just wasting way too much time, where you could instead be grabbing the listener's attention with something more exciting.
5. When you do eventually get our attention closer to the end, it is not forceful/aggressive enough. Maybe needs more choir as Danny suggests, although to me they sound prominent already.... I don't know, probably the percussion needs more work at least. It sounds a bit too tame, which is my overall observation of the entire track.

I think you need to ask yourself what is it about your track that would make it better than others. For something submitted for a competition, at the moment I can't hear anything that stands out that would make me choose it over other well produced tracks. It is a very safe, "tame" track, as I said.

I'm not very experienced myself. Maybe I am wrong with my assessment? Feel free to ignore my ramblings.


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## markleake (Dec 26, 2015)

The other thing I forgot to mention is, some more brass wouldn't go astray in making it sound more aggressive.


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## Andrajas (Dec 26, 2015)

Guido Negraszus said:


> I would love to know what equipment you used in this track.



Thanks for the comment! By equipment, you mean the plugins?



Fer said:


> Just to add some constructive criticism i would say to my ears, the theme itself wants a more explosive conclussion of the melodic motiv, just before everything gets quiet and paceful again at the end.



I see what you mean, I agree, could have gone further with that.



dannymc said:


> i thought the mood and atmosphere of the piece were great, i really enjoyed the opening but after that the theme just didn't develop as i would of expected. that 4 note/chord structure just repeats and repeats. (i get stuck in this awful habit myself) this is fine to a point but when you got to the 2min mark you dont introduce any new variation. it kinda seems a bit empty here like its missing some elements. also the choir is quite lost in the mix at this point, it might of been better to have the choir up out in front at this point. then the exact same theme begins again at 3mins, i know you change it slightly with an octave change etc but its still pretty much identical. this is where your orchestration skills you're learning in school need to come in. making use of other instruments for variation and color. also that sub bassline that comes in doesn't really fit to my ears. not sure if its just the wrong rhythm you've got going or just the synth itself is wrong. that strange key change you do at 4mins really doesn't work for me sounds like forced variation but it just doesn't fit the mood to my ears.
> 
> Danny



Thanks for the detailed comment. I like to write very simple melodies that sticks with you. So when you say "new variation" you mean like change up the main melody? The key change is just half step up, funny that the change seems strange hehe  But I see what you mean. 



markleake said:


> Hey Andrajas, I agree pretty much exactly with what Danny said. It is actually a very good piece, and I think we'll produced, but if I were to be picky, I would say:
> 
> 1. The main theme doesn't develop enough. It really is the same 4 notes that are very much the same all the way through. That can be great if you build on it lots, but I'm feeling you don't enough.
> 2. The key change at 4:00 doesn't need to happen, it seems forced.
> ...



Guess I have an issue with developing an idea. Really wanted to do a simple melody that would leave someone knowing it after first listen, maybe I did the wrong choice. About the orchestra, I really wanted it to have a small part in the piece, but I see that you mean. I also wanted to avoid percussion, but when I think about it, the song would probably be better with it. 

Yeah, I agree that the track is tame.


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## markleake (Dec 26, 2015)

Andrajas said:


> Guess I have an issue with developing an idea. Really wanted to do a simple melody that would leave someone knowing it after first listen, maybe I did the wrong choice.



I don't think I'd quite go that far. 

To be honest, the problem with the main melody is it is too close to a simple short chord progression, for *my* ear anyway. I don't walk away having listened to it with the melody still playing in my head.


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## dannymc (Dec 26, 2015)

> Thanks for the detailed comment. I like to write very simple melodies that sticks with you. So when you say "new variation" you mean like change up the main melody?



no you dont have to change the melody. maybe use a counter melody top line or slight variation on the original melody, i dont know just be creative with it. actually what might be good for you is to listen to good trailer compositions. they often use the same theme for the whole cue but they are cleverly and creatively varied enough to keep the listener interested and the piece full and interesting with nice subtle touches going on. 

Danny


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## Guido Negraszus (Dec 26, 2015)

Andrajas said:


> Thanks for the comment! By equipment, you mean the plugins?



Yes. No need to list everything. Just curious what your core plugins were. Thanks.


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## Guido Negraszus (Dec 26, 2015)

Actually just read your SC info were you listed the used libraries. Sorry, should have read first. Listening again. Still love it!


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## Andrajas (Dec 26, 2015)

markleake said:


> I don't think I'd quite go that far.
> 
> To be honest, the problem with the main melody is it is too close to a simple short chord progression, for *my* ear anyway. I don't walk away having listened to it with the melody still playing in my head.


I see, well then I failed with my "mission" 



dannymc said:


> no you dont have to change the melody. maybe use a counter melody top line or slight variation on the original melody, i dont know just be creative with it. actually what might be good for you is to listen to good trailer compositions. they often use the same theme for the whole cue but they are cleverly and creatively varied enough to keep the listener interested and the piece full and interesting with nice subtle touches going on.
> 
> Danny


The piano play some countermelodies and violins 1/2 also in last part, but maybe not "powerful" enough. But good thoughts! 



Guido Negraszus said:


> Actually just read your SC info were you listed the used libraries. Sorry, should have read first. Listening again. Still love it!


I'm glad someones likes it hehe! I also use Orbit in the piece.


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## novaburst (Dec 26, 2015)

Very nice piece and well thought out, with competitions you just never know what the judges are looking for and there are so many talents out there some times the level we reach in music production composition appears to be very high but there is all ways another level that some one is at.

Is it practice, is it feel, is it listening, is it the vibe we give off, is it the way we use our instruments, so many variables, for music to attract many different types of people is asking a lot but being famous can help.

because you did not win does not mean your not good and you should do away with that idea its not fair on your self plus others can tend to feel uncomfortable around you. 

The Rose Royce is the better car but people will more than likely choose the Porch, what is that then is the Royce a bad car ......no could it have been the mood people were in...... probably, was it some thing they eat...... maybe
how was the judge feeling that day who knows, 

I can remember people taking driving test and they said they made so many mistakes but the instructor still passed them, so what happen, did he meet a nice women, did his proposal get accepted, did he come into lots of money, there can be so many reasons why a judge picks a winner, some times its I dont care just pick some one.........for crying out load i need to get to my golf course to day. 

You just dont know why some people get picked as the winner, some times it is because there work was outstanding and they put more time than you did, they may have chosen better chords , runs, or melody lines but so what.... does that mean your not good.it should never reflect on our own performance because you was not picked as the winner

next competition just blow there minds


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## Polarity (Dec 26, 2015)

Andrajas I think you should hold on and not give up: the track is very nice... wonderful atmosphere.
I agree on the fact that the track doesn't take off and remain too equal...
it's me of course, but at some point I await for an epic big brass sound "ala Daniel James" to kick in and drag by hand with energy your piano melodies elevating them with some variations.
And yes, also I would have perhaps put a louder choir at the end.
But don't worry... and get my congratulations for your track.

The 8Dio Stand Out Contest? 
Well, I'm myself a looser at that but I'm not disappointed at all... I expected to not being even get a nomination:
as someone already has written here "you just never know what the judges are looking for".
I just finished to listen a few minutes ago to the winners tracks and... 
of them I like just one track only (the 2nd place)
the others... well, not much to say about the 3rd place apart it's not my genre, but is a good one, 
while the 5th and 4th places for me are just silly and awful compositions (total cr** for me, to be honest )
the 1st place? 
Hmmm... I find it too odd, crazy, schizophrenic, too extravagant and fragmentary to like it.
My personal vision, of course 
I listened to much much much much better tracks among the submissions and especially musically nice ones.

Yours one perhaps was slightly zimmerish in some way and so just what they didn't want at all, as they made clear in the rules.
Don't give a damn and go on creating your stuff: it's good enough!


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## germancomponist (Dec 26, 2015)

I like it!
You can do anything better and you can anything verschlimmbessern. At one point you have to be ready and present your result! Sure, next month it could be a very different result, but...?


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## markleake (Dec 26, 2015)

Polarity said:


> the 1st place?
> Hmmm... I find it too odd, crazy, schizophrenic, too extravagant and fragmentary to like it.


I just went and had a listen and... well... 1st place is really best described as strange, or a collection of sound effects. It is very original, but I don't see how it can be to many people's tastes. I think it won due to them judging it mostly on originality only. Your piece Andrejas would never have had a chance if that was how they were judging - maybe they really meant "not too orchestral" when they said "not too Zimmer".

2nd place is much more to my liking musically than 1st (and probably would be for almost everyone I suspect).

I think your track Andrejas is on a par with the 2nd place winner.

3rd place winner is really a very niche kind of sound, despite the judges describing it as contemporary.

And I agree 4th and 5th winners are just not on the same level - they seem odd selections for high place winners. But again originality seems to be their main criteria.


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## markleake (Dec 26, 2015)

Also... listen to the 6th track. It is wonderful!

Emotional, wonderfully orchestrated, beautifully sung, etc.


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## novaburst (Dec 26, 2015)

i was checking out some of the tracks, man the 2nd place for me should have been 1st Theory that track very touching, not sure what the winner had in mind but he or she was different and did not follow the norm some times this impress the judge, 

I dont like but it is well done, seems judges were looking for originality as this film score and orchestra music can tend to sound the same from one to another, I think the contest was a wake up call, produce whats in your head, imagination, not what others are doing, yes agree track 6 was a killer, that track very moving.


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## Aakaash Rao (Dec 26, 2015)

I quite enjoyed the piece and agree with most of the comments above. This would work well to picture but is perhaps a bit too static as a standalone piece -- which was perhaps what 8Dio was looking for. The percussion could definitely be spiced up -- some nice rhythmic grooves in low bata drums or shakers perhaps? I've found that the Brunel Loops in Spitfire's Albion are incredibly useful in this context.

I agree that the quieter section in the middle of the piece could have been much more exciting. A nice oboe or ethnic flute soaring over that section would have been gorgeous. When you recap the theme from the beginning at 2:52, I think you need to do something more with it, whether by changing the melody or adding a new layer (perhaps glockenspiel or some muted strings). The final repetition of that section at 3:38 is nice, but it comes out of nowhere; I think it would have had much more emotional impact if you had built up to it a bit more. Again, some low drums in this section would have really taken it to another level.

All that said, I really did enjoy the piece -- you certainly have tremendous talent as a composer, whether or not 8Dio recognized your track.


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## Arnel007 (Dec 27, 2015)

Hi Andrajas! 1rst of all "CONGRATULATION!". This composition sounds great! Don't be doubting about your talent comparing you with others. It's always good to have models, but everyone has his/her way to observe, to show and express his/her thought. Competition!? who really knows what the jury want? 
In "my opinion", some contrasting elements are missing, like brass (energy), syncopation (complexity)... You can use also instrument fx, overall from 1:57 to 2:55 to avoid monotony. You can use percussion without being "extravagant".  You can make music without percussion too. To do so, you need other instruments playing as if they were percussive instrument. I use to do it. Last point, wanting a simple melody must not stop you from using complex elements.
I'll always remember this thought from Cyril Orcel that I want to share with you:
"A (great work) must include "complexity" . Art must include complexity without showing it.
it's a little bit like a flower. It's beautiful, with simple forms but in fact it's very complex. Our eyes give us the pleasure of this complexity result but we can't analyse it, we just feel it.
Unfortunately, this complexity is coming from performance of the mind. It's why we should work very hard to create simple things witch include a magical energy."
So, use all your talent, your skills, you creativity to keep on making great music as you are making it!

Blessings!!!


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## Andrajas (Dec 27, 2015)

Wow, thank you guys for the helpful comments! You have really helped me a lot here  A lot of great stuff that I will keep in mind when writing next piece of music. Its kinda funny tho, I really tried not to be "zimmerish", I just wanted to write something that's "me", but it seems the "zimmerish" can't be avoided hehe, but I don't really mind 

One thing I will learn from this thread is that I should not avoid instruments just because I want to. If the piece needs it, I need to have it to get the best possible result. I agree that its needs more complexity, and this is really something I will think about in the future. As I learn more about orchestration etc, hopefully I can pull this off!

Also thanks for the nice comments. Made me happy to hear that you enjoy the piece, even if its not perfect


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## Polarity (Dec 27, 2015)

is there a definite 6th place?
or you were considering the first author's track in the nominated list?


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## Polarity (Dec 27, 2015)

sometimes (if not often) music pieces are nice and enjoyable even if they are not perfect 
or even far from that condition


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## dannymc (Dec 27, 2015)

> Also thanks for the nice comments. Made me happy to hear that you enjoy the piece, even if its not perfect



and always remember there are not that many people in the world that can do what you do. sometimes when competing against the best composers in the world its easy to forget the vast majority of people could not write something like this due to the talent that you have. 

Danny


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## tokatila (Dec 27, 2015)

You're just at intermediate level. This is where most people (finally) quit.


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## Andrajas (Dec 27, 2015)

tokatila said:


> You're just at intermediate level. This is where most people (finally) quit.


Hehe I may be a little stupid now but what do you mean?  This diagram you have here, what does it show?


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## dannymc (Dec 27, 2015)

it an exponential curve Andrajas showing getting to intermediacy takes a short time but getting to mastery is a longer road ahead. 

Danny


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## Andrajas (Dec 27, 2015)

dannymc said:


> it an exponential curve Andrajas showing getting to intermediacy takes a short time but getting to mastery is a longer road ahead.
> 
> Danny


Hehe ofcourse! I see now hehe


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## Hannes_F (Dec 27, 2015)

Andrajas said:


> What can I improve?



OK, you asked, so here is my (very personal) suggestion: Stop using a piano in front of some orchestra chords bed.

Piano in front of orchestra chords is great if you have to compose many minutes in short time and don't know what else to do. For that kind of situation it is a superb device, second to none.

(The exception proves the rule)


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## markleake (Dec 27, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> Stop using a piano in front of some orchestra chords bed.



LOL. That is true, there is a lot of that in this track. Frank advice, but to the point.


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## Andrajas (Dec 28, 2015)

Hannes_F said:


> OK, you asked, so here is my (very personal) suggestion: Stop using a piano in front of some orchestra chords bed.
> 
> Piano in front of orchestra chords is great if you have to compose many minutes in short time and don't know what else to do. For that kind of situation it is a superb device, second to none.
> 
> (The exception proves the rule)


Thanks for the comment. What would you suggest? I mean, I wanted the Piano to be a big part of the piece together with the other "plucked" instruments. I didn't approach the orchestra in this piece in the traditional way. I wanted it just to fill out and move "slowly"


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## novaburst (Dec 30, 2015)

I was checking out some more tracks from the 8Dio Standout contest, and I bet you did not know Hans Zemmer joined,............well not exactly.

But I came across this track and it sounded so nice I just had to share it with you, it is a great example of how to use horns and make you composition fat and wide, this guy nailed it.

Some of you may have already came across this track, a little Hanzzzy but you cant help but love this track. check it out. https://soundcloud.com/search?q=Fjord Keeper


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## Andrajas (Dec 30, 2015)

novaburst said:


> I was checking out some more tracks from the 8Dio Standout contest, and I bet you did not know Hans Zemmer joined,............well not exactly.
> 
> But I came across this track and it sounded so nice I just had to share it with you, it is a great example of how to use horns and make you composition fat and wide, this guy nailed it.
> 
> Some of you may have already came across this track, a little Hanzzzy but you cant help but love this track. check it out. https://soundcloud.com/search?q=Fjord Keeper



Yeah have heard that track before! Very nice indeed! Blakus is great!


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## novaburst (Dec 30, 2015)

Andrajas said:


> Yeah have heard that track before! Very nice indeed! Blakus is great!



Dummy me You know I did not even realize this is the Blakus as in the Blakus Cello ....Doooooh but there is just no exuse for making great music like that lol


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