# Why can't I add chords to this melody?



## Voider (Nov 13, 2016)

Hi! I am learning music theory with a book and have done around 130 pages now.

So far I can read the circle of fifths, I know about the different scales, and how to use chords in an order that is supposed to sound harmonic, but somehow I just created a short test melody that I can't add chords to. Everytime I try to use chords (C-Major) it doesn't sound well.

This is the simple melody: 

The melody is in C-Major only. Is there anything I need to be careful with, when I want to add chords, or can I just write any melody and then add chords that are part of the same scale?


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## Rodney Money (Nov 13, 2016)

Because you ARE playing the chords. That is not a melody, that's the accompaniment.


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## Voider (Nov 13, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Because you ARE playing the chords. That is not a melody, that's the accompaniment.



Can you explain that further?
The notes are F-A-E-D and then always one white key lower after two repeats, I don't see in which scale that would make a chord.


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## jemu999 (Nov 13, 2016)

F-A-E-D, is basically an inverted D minor chord, with an added 2nd or 9th (E). D minor is the ii in the C major scale.

As a test, try playing F-A-D at the same time. Its just a D minor chord. Then add the E. Its just an added 9th. Your piece is already is harmonized.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 13, 2016)

Voider said:


> Can you explain that further?
> The notes are F-A-E-D and then always one white key lower after two repeats, I don't see in which scale that would make a chord.


If my math is correct then in C Major, your first chord is a dm6add2, then C6add2, then bdim6add2, and finally am6add2.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 13, 2016)

jemu999 said:


> F-A-E-D, is basically an inverted D minor chord, with an added 2nd or 9th (E). D minor is the ii in the C major scale.
> 
> As a test, try playing F-A-D at the same time. Its just a D minor chord. Then add the E. Its just an added 9th. Your piece is already is harmonized.


You beat me to it! Lol.


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## jdrcomposer (Nov 13, 2016)

Each chord could easily be spelled as a 9th, 7th 6th chord. F-A-C-D spells out a D minor 9th chord. So, you could do:

Fmaj9, Cmaj7 over E, Dm7, C major

Audio:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ircqxwmpcv0gvnn/Chord test.mp3?dl=0


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## Rob (Nov 13, 2016)

You are playing an arpeggio here, 3-5-9-8 on Dm, C, Bdim, Am. As Rodney says, it sounds more like an accompaniment than a melody, because it's so descriptive of a harmonic progression. You could do the reverse, building a melody on top of that 

Edit: damn we replied all at the same time


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## jemu999 (Nov 13, 2016)

Voider said:


> Hi! I am learning music theory with a book and have done around 130 pages now.
> 
> So far I can read the circle of fifths, I know about the different scales, and how to use chords in an order that is supposed to sound harmonic, but somehow I just created a short test melody that I can't add chords to. Everytime I try to use chords (C-Major) it doesn't sound well.
> 
> ...



I commend you for learning music theory with a book... and it can certainly be achieved with patience and consistency. However, I would strongly suggest at some point that you take a music theory course at your local community college, or at the very least, take a few one on one lessons with someone.

Things will generally _click_ much faster, and you will have the benefit of not having to guess if you really understand what you have read. Either way, I wish you the best of luck and remember that people on this forum are super helpful!


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## Voider (Nov 13, 2016)

Hey guys, thank you so far for all your replies! Yes you are right, F-A-D is Dm in the first "reverse mode", the added E may not change that. Unfortunately there is no option for me where I live to study music theory or to take lessons (the first because of the restrictions for those who want to study, the latter because of money), but I am pretty confident that I'll make it with books, videos and the greatest gift I luckily have: A lot of time.

The reason I wonder about this thread topic is, because the book didn't teach the relation between melody and chords so far and I was not aware of, that a harmonized melody and a harmonized chord will sound bad together (do the frequencies get muddy together?)

So what do I have to take care of when I write a melody that I want to harmonize with chords afterwards?
Does the melody need to avoid all possible chords in the scale I write, or extend or prepare them, but never has a progression that is similiar to any chord included in the chosen scale?

@jdrcomposer: What is Fmaj9? F-G-A-C? All I know so far is the basic major and minor chords and sometimes a chord like G7 where a 4th note is added. My book is not finished yet and I know that it will mention larger chords than only 3 notes (don't know the english word, tetrachords?), but to understand "_Fmaj9, Cmaj7 over E, Dm7, C major_" a short explanation would be great


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## jemu999 (Nov 13, 2016)

Voider said:


> So what do I have to take care of when I write a melody that I want to harmonize with chords afterwards?
> Does the melody need to avoid all possible chords in the scale I write, or extend or prepare them, but never has a progression that is similiar to any chord included in the chosen scale?



Im not sure what book you are studying... but questions such as these need to be tackled before moving on to trying to _"...understand "Fmaj9, Cmaj7 over E, Dm7,"_

But in its simplest form, a melody _SHOULD_ include a note of the chord you are playing. If you start with a simple triad chord: (3 Notes) for example C MAJOR: C-E-G. Then a section of a melody with either of these 3 notes could conform to the C Major chord. (they can conform to others as well!) Additionally, you may have passing tones that do not fall into the chord. For example, play a Cmajor chord on the left hand on a piano, and then play three notes one after another: E, D, C. In this case, D, would be a passing tone, but would still work with a C Major Chord. 

My suggestion again, find a tutor. It doesn't matter where you live, as many lessons can be made online over the internet. Affordability can be an issue of course.

If you are serious about going on your own, then I would suggest starting very simple. A good majority of simple melodies use primarily these three chords: 

(I) C major : C:E:G
(IV) F major: F:A:C
(V): G major: G:B:D

If you analyze all the notes in these three chords, you realize that they actually include every single note in the C Major scale:
C D E F G A B: 

Thus, you are able to harmonize just about any simple melody in C Major with only these three primary chords. Master these three chords, and then move on by adding more chords. In fact, beginner piano lessons almost exclusively use just these three chords.

While I didn't watch the whole thing, I think this video could be helpful for further explanation:


Good luck!


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## wpc982 (Nov 14, 2016)

A couple of observations more: your melody has descending seconds on every 3-4 beat, and always followed by a skip. In strict counterpoint, if a weak beat (beat 4) is followed by a skip then that weak beat MUST be part of the chord. Beat three, on the the other hand, need not be part of the chord. Beat 2, your melody always skips to the note and skips away from the note: in strict counterpoint, therefore, the note MUST be part of a chord. Beat 1, likewise, always skips, so always MUST be part of a chord.

so: your choices for one chord per bar are completely fixed: you MUST use F, Dm, C, C, Bdim(*), Bdim(*), Am, Am. (* you can use a G7 chord too)

However! there is no reason you can't use two chords per bar, or three chords, or four chords per bar.

And then, your chords, subject to the restrictions above, don't have to stay in any particular scale. I'd start, for instance: | F E7 Am7 | Dm Em7/G | F#7b9 etc


Responding also to jemu999's advice: I disagree. That's not good advice, none of it.

If you can get a fairly standard harmony book and a fairly standard counterpoint book, and go back and forth according to your understanding, that's maybe the best approach for working from books by yourself.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Hey @jemu999 , thanks for this very in detail reply! 

As said previously, it is not like that I don't know the basics about chords, I just don't know how they relate to melodies because the book had fixed pieces that I did harmonize and a lot of pages just about chords only, about scales, about cadences, chord substitution and parallel minor scales. (Like A-Minor to C-Major etc).

I also know about the "level" (is this the right word?) I, IV and V, what you told me about with C F and G(7) as mainchords that are enough to accompany a simple melody.

I think I've learned a lot about how to build chords and chord progression now, it's just lacking of how to use it in relation with a melody. I will watch the video you posted later! But your explanation was very helpful so far.
Just to sum the concept up: When I write a melody and for example accompany it with a simple Cmaj chord, then I can build in one of these notes but have to take care of, that my melody doesn't have a progression that would be a whole chord in the scale I'm writing in?

And another very beginner question: I assume that choosing a scale to write in, only referrs to the chords, so that the main melody can be totally free, or does it have to move within the chosen scale too?


And I guess Fmaj9 means the same like Gmaj7 and so on? Like G7 is G-H-D-F.


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## Rob (Nov 14, 2016)

@Voider: try to discriminate between reasonable replies and mystifying ones, please...


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Rob said:


> @Voider: try to discriminate between reasonable replies and mystifying ones, please...



What do you mean by that?


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## Rob (Nov 14, 2016)

there's a reply 4 posts above which makes no sense... I mean not every reply deserves to be taken seriously


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Rob said:


> there's a reply 4 posts above which makes no sense... I mean not every reply deserves to be taken seriously



Well I didn't read wpc's post when I posted mine because they did overlap.
And how can I know which post doesn't make sense, when I at this moment have no clue about what to take care of when I write a melody that I want to harmonize with chords afterwards. I just trust you guys that you will point out some misinformation and that in the end I will get the helpful stuff along.


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## Rob (Nov 14, 2016)

you're right of course...
back to melody writing, there are certain elements that make a melody a melody... step-wise motion, singable qualities, jumps in one direction compensated by movement in the opposite direction, not too arpeggio-like movements, etc.


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## FriFlo (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> Well I didn't read wpc's post when I posted mine because they did overlap.
> And how can I know which post doesn't make sense, when I at this moment have no clue about
> how to write a melody so that I can harmonize it. I just trust you guys that you will point out some
> misinformation and that in the end I will get the helpful stuff along.


Stop trying to learn basics of composition, harmony, really any music theory on the internet. Take lessons, read books with a good reputation and then you can build on that by reading threads or asking questions in forums. The internet can be your friend, but it can also be your enemy!  You have to have the ability to understand as much, as to decide which information is valid and which is not.


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## Rob (Nov 14, 2016)

why don't you start with harmony first and build a melody on that? Take a couple or so notes from the chords you choose and enrich them with passing tones, appoggiaturas, approaching tones, etc


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## wpc982 (Nov 14, 2016)

I changed one note intentionally, who knows what I may have done accidentally. All kinds of possibilities, and though your melody poses challenges, it's a good exercise.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> Stop trying to learn basics of composition, harmony, really any music theory on the internet. Take lessons, read books with a good reputation and then you can build on that by reading threads or asking questions in forums.



I am learning with a book as said previously and am here, to ask questions that should expand the knowledge.

@wpc982 My book didn't mention counterpoints so it is pretty difficult for me to follow.
Maybe my book is really not that good.. what is meant when there are two chords separated by / ? Optional, to chose from one of both?

@Rob That's a good idea, starting with the chord progression first. But I definitely need to learn how to start with the melody too. I guess I will have to work another book through after this one that covers more of that.

But acutally my mistake with the short example from my initial post was, that I used a melody that in its progression simply was a Dminor chord.


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## wpc982 (Nov 14, 2016)

Rob, while your suggestion is met with all the time (start with a chord progression and turn it into a melody), like other advice above it is the kind of thing that stunts development of a melodic sense. Write a melody! Make it a melody. Sure, if you give it a harmonization, you may change the implication of the melody. But if you start with a bunch of chords, you'll be very unlikely to change the implication of the melody, ever, and you'll be stuck with a boring product and a limited palette as an artist.

In Voider's case, the given melody as pointed out right at first is nearly a harmonization, but it has character beyond the underlying chords -- the beat 3-4 descending step is very characteristic, and it's fine as a melodic element. It would be lost working backwards from chords.


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## Rob (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider, here is a little video to show how your short example could work as a supporting harmony for a melody, built only with chord tones, passing tones etc...

www.robertosoggetti.com/VoiderMelody.mp4


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## FriFlo (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> I am learning with a book as said previously and am here, to ask questions that should expand the knowledge.


Sorry, I didn't get that! Well, you already got some pretty good tips. Your melody is not very interesting as a melody, but of course there might be circumstances, where you would want just that line, especially in film music. Since it is quite chord based, you have pretty much set the harmony, but there are still many possibilities how to harmonize it. It is a sequence, with each part repeating, so the easiest way of harmonizing it is something like this:
D - B - C - A - B - G# - A - C (just play this bass line with your line and hold the melody notes). The harmonic model behind this is a sequence of falling fifth. You can of course do variations, to make it less predictable.


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## d.healey (Nov 14, 2016)

Take a simple melody you already know and add chords to it


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## Morodiene (Nov 14, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Because you ARE playing the chords. That is not a melody, that's the accompaniment.


Rodney is correct. What you have are chords that are arpeggiated - it's not a melody. Like what other posters have suggested, you can try writing a chord progression first and using that to springboard a new melody.

Or, you can try creating a very simple melody to go with your accompaniment that you've written here. Here's what I came up with:

https://app.box.com/s/falhpy6jbbtq9e74wjnfxtakz9myyf3y


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> Hi! I am learning music theory with a book and have done around 130 pages now.
> 
> So far I can read the circle of fifths, I know about the different scales, and how to use chords in an order that is supposed to sound harmonic, but somehow I just created a short test melody that I can't add chords to. Everytime I try to use chords (C-Major) it doesn't sound well.
> 
> ...




I wouldn´t say that this is not a melody, it is a melody but it could be a bit more interesting in terms of chosen notes and the rhythmic aspect. Sure you can add notes under the melody to harmonize this melody, but still I can understand that @Rodney Money mentioned that this is not a melody by its classical terms for him. Look here, I recorded a short melody for you, first just the melody and then some chords and arrangement to underpin the idea. Maybe that helps you a little bit?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vc8aze7wyg0eldi/Alexander_Schiborr_short_melody.mp3?dl=0


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Thank you for all your replies! I especially enjoy to listen what my melody could've been used for.

@Rob, good that your provided me the note sheet. I tried to rebuild it but with piano only, it really sounds terrible at some points. But the way you did it with strings was the way I had it in my imagination. As I just assumed before, I think with too many piano notes the frequencies are clashing together. 

I know that one can use chords not only as triad, but with single notes in a progression. But still it's not easy for me to see what you've used at some points (Bar 3 for example).

@wpc982 I will try out your chords now.

Referring to the melody, it only was a short thing that I could practice on with chords, of course it is pretty simple and not too interesting since it should serve another purpose. And it's not that I want to collect ideas how I could make it interesting, though I enjoy all your audio examples, but that I want to know what I need to take care of when writing a melody, so that adding chords to it will sound nice. But yeah as most of you already said, it probably was because my melody already was a chord progression.

But when I for example would write a melody in Cmaj and avoid any progression that would make a chord, then I don't have a lot of possibilites left.. I think I still don't understand it well enough.

@AlexanderSchiborr I can't see dropbox link without an account :(


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> Thank you for all your replies! I especially enjoy to listen what my melody could've been used for.
> 
> @Rob, good that your provided me the note sheet. I tried to rebuild it but with piano only, it really sounds terrible at some points. But the way you did it with strings was the way I had it in my imagination. As I just assumed before, I think with too many piano notes the frequencies are clashing together.
> 
> ...




my fault sorry..I didn´t generate a link..

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vc8aze7wyg0eldi/Alexander_Schiborr_short_melody.mp3?dl=0
Does that work now?
Apologies again.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

Yes works, and sounds great! But as said previously I am not at the point where I could ask for how to make my melody interesting, because it was just expedient to practice adding chords and I already fail at the knowledge what I am allowed to do and what not, when writing a melody. Adding chords (3 notes in the same time, like C-E-G) on my melody didn't work at all, no matter which I did choose. It did sound muddy and overlapping.



FriFlo said:


> Since it is quite chord based, you have pretty much set the harmony, but there are still many possibilities how to harmonize it. It is a sequence, with each part repeating, so the easiest way of harmonizing it is something like this:
> D - B - C - A - B - G# - A - C (just play this bass line with your line and hold the melody notes). The harmonic model behind this is a sequence of falling fifth. You can of course do variations, to make it less predictable.



Just these single notes on a bass octave, while my melody is playing? I tried it out but already the D and B with my melody sounds terrible. Mabye I didn't understand how to do it..

To everyone:
Maybe to keep this thread a bit more clear, let me ask some direct questions.


When I start to write a melody (let's do all examples in Cmaj for simplicity) what do I have to be aware of, if I want to add chords?
And when we talk about chords, just to make sure we're thinking of the same, we're referring to at least triads or more that are played in the same time, don't we? My book teached 95% of the content about these, it happened really rarely that it used the sequence of a chord via single notes to accompany a melody.


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## FriFlo (Nov 14, 2016)

I am afraid, you will have to take lessons. If you cannot make anything out of this line, which is simple but works, you need to work on your hearing (ear training) and knowledge quite substantially. I don't want to sound rude or arrogant, but you seem to be missing all basics. Get a teacher, otherwise you will be stuck.


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## Voider (Nov 14, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> I am afraid, you will have to take lessons. If you cannot make anything out of this line, which is simple but works, you need to work on your hearing (ear training) and knowledge quite substantially. I don't want to sound rude or arrogant, but you seem to be missing all basics. Get a teacher, otherwise you will be stuck.



Maybe it's just a misunderstanding because of the language barrier, sometimes it's tough to understand what is meant because I'm not a native speaker as you probably have already noticed. I'm pretty sure that with a short explanation I will understand how that recommendation was supposed to be done. I could ask over here in the german forums, but in all honest, the people on vi-control and english forums in general are a lot nicer and more helpful, so I really like to ask here instead. 

But I can understand that some of you might be unnerved..


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## Living Fossil (Nov 14, 2016)

I have not read through the whole thread, however, some remarks:
1.) In contrary to what has been said, the melody is ok as it is. Of course, it depends on context and what one wants.
It's a bit simple, but lots of succesful melodies are simple.

2.) It was suggested to take the notes of the melody for the harmonisation. That may be a good idea, but isn't necessarily what one wants. It depends on what one is imagining inside. Two points to consider:
2a.) often, melodies use extensions of chords while the chord doesn't use all these notes.
The first notes f, a, e, d could be routed in d-minor, F-major with an added 6 (d), or even Bb-maj7 or G7/9.
The most simple solutions are not the only ones...

2b.) If you use seconds (e-d, d-c, etc.) in a melody, it's often
not a very good idea two use both notes in the harmony, since this will reduce the melodic tension of suspensions, passing notes etc.).
With harmonizing the first 4 notes as d-min-add9 the melody will shrink to an accompaniment.

3.) The fact that the melodic line is built as an easy sentence makes it useful not simply to parrot this descending movement in the left hand (i.e. in the bass line).

4.) You should train your ear. After a while you will "hear" exactly what you only "feel" right now.


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## Chandler (Nov 14, 2016)

I don't think anyone can really answer your question completely in a forum post. I'll try to give a basic over view though.

Melodies are most often composed from the heart. By this I mean the come into people's head and are written down. After that they are harmonized. Of course people also create chord progressions first and then write melodies to them, but that is another story. After you have a melody, it is easy to hear and see that there will be some chords that work with the notes in a measure and some that won't sound as well, in a traditional sense. After identifying which chords work for each bar, choose a progression that makes sense harmonically and play the melody along with the chords you have chosen. Often times there will be multiple progressions that will work and the choice is yours. 

As you learn more music theory your choices will increase. IMO these increased choices are where the real artistry lies in music. 

As practice try choosing a simple melody and harmonizing it. Then look to see what the orginal composer did. I'd start with things like nursery rhymes and children's songs as they usually don't have any tricky stuff that you won't understand in them. As you learn more you can try harder material.


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## jonathanprice (Nov 14, 2016)

If I'd composed the melody, I'd go with an FM7 version: ||:FM7|Cadd9|Dmin7/F|CM7/G:|| Very Burt Bacharach!


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## just2high (Nov 14, 2016)

Voider said:


> Hi! I am learning music theory with a book and have done around 130 pages now.
> 
> So far I can read the circle of fifths, I know about the different scales, and how to use chords in an order that is supposed to sound harmonic, but somehow I just created a short test melody that I can't add chords to. Everytime I try to use chords (C-Major) it doesn't sound well.
> 
> ...




Hi Voider,

I want to commend you first for taking initiative to teach yourself music theory on your own, I remember my first music theory lessons and it wasn't pretty. I'm curious which book you are using to learn from? That would help understanding where you are coming from. Several areas of music theory have come up in the course of this thread and from all different perspectives. I think it would help to keep in mind that Music Theory and the application of said theory (ie. Composition) are two related but different practices. You are discovering this as the book sounds like it lays out what chords are but not how to apply them.

I'm also curious as to if you play an instrument and where are you putting the notes of the chords you are trying to use to harmonize? You mention that some of the chords sound muddy with the harmony, this sounds like a voicing problem (where the notes are placed high or low in and in relation to each other) or a dissonance problem (some chord tones are clashing with your melody).

I like your melody, it's very recognizable and has some built in interest with the second on top. For the purposes of learning to harmonize I wouldn't worry about changing it, focus the exercise on chords and then you can revisit it.

When working with melodies keep in mind that melody is generally thought of horizontally, notes in succession of each other. Chords are thought of vertically, notes in relation to each other up and down. When you add Chords and Melody together you then have to also think of Harmonic Rhythm, how fast are the chords changing? You could for instance have one chord for every single note in your melody, or one chord for 2 notes, or one for 4 etc. Since this is an excercise I would say start by defining how fast you want the chords to change as that will also change how you think about the melody.

Example: Lets take just the first four notes (F, A, E, D). Lets set the harmonic rhythm to half notes, or one chord for two notes. A common practice when harmonizing a melody is to take the collection of notes that need to be harmonized and examining the pitch relations, which is how Dm9 was arrived at. People usually start by having melody tones also be chord tones, but more interesting harmonies happen when you treat melody tones as non-chord tones or upper harmonies. Here are some examples: First chord could be F Major, second chord could be D major. Another option, first chord F Major, second chord Bb Major. Treating the melody tones as extended harmonies you could have Gminor followed by Bb7. Or crazier you could do B diminshed first chord, second chord D dimished. The theory helps me figure out what chords could work, but the composition process is making decisions about how you want your music to sound.

To help clarify some of your other questions:

The (I), (IV), (V) that has been referred to are a big part of Roman Numeral Analysis. The numbers refer to the scale degree of the key. For example, in C Major, I=C, ii=D, iii=E etc. But they also refer to quality of triads built on the scale degrees. So again in C Major, I=C Major, ii=D minor, iii=E minor... etc. Roman Numeral Analysis is also a big part of Functional Analysis. Fifths are important as you've discovered. So for C Major, I and V are strongly tied together, V wants to go to I. V7 to I is a huge part of western music.

Fmaj9, Gmaj9 etc. maj9, maj7, dim, aug are all chord types. By definition a Major 9th chord built in thirds should be Root, Third, Fifth, Major 7, Major 9. In your post you spelled the Fmaj9 as F-G-A-C which technically is correct, but for a 9th to be really clear it needs to be separated by at least an octave from the root (in this case F). 

When you are writing in a key this informs both melody tone and chord tone spellings. The keys of Gb Major and F# Major are enharmonically the same notes but will look different on the page. For fuctional theory it will also have implications as to what "works". A piece written entirely in one key will not have any chromatics (sharps or flats) other than in the key signature (this is not acounting for related major and minor keys which share a key signature). Compositionally speaking you are only bound to a key in so far as your imagination can take you, they are really a tool to help imagine and communicate the sound of your music. I'm sure we've all heard the Major keys are "happy" and Minor keys are "sad". Functionally and Theoretically speaking some compositional choices can present problems. For example I can harmonize your four notes with Eb Major for the first two notes then the next two notes with E Major.

@Voider Got a bit carried away, hopefully all this makes sense to you.


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## just2high (Nov 15, 2016)

@Voider Some additional examples:

Just to demonstrate some of what I was talking about. Here is your melody, harmonized with 2 notes per chord, or half notes. Chord symbol analysis above, Roman Numeral Analysis below. I interpreted it in the Key of F just to demonstrate some functional theory and chords outside the key. There will probably be some argument over the roman numeral analysis, specifically with the Bb7 as it doesn't quite fit into functional analysis. You can argue a deceptive cadence into the Aminor in bar 3 but it's a stretch I think. I chose not to come up with new chords for repeated melody patterns (ie. bar 1 and 2) but instead broke up the harmonizing chord into eighth notes to show how you can use your harmony to add motion, arpeggiation in this way is also more common for piano. I also inserted an extra measure after your melody pattern to show a functional V7 to I cadence.









*edit: the last 9 in [bar 9] should be a Maj7


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## NoamL (Nov 16, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> That is not a melody, that's the accompaniment.





jemu999 said:


> Your piece is already is harmonized.





Rob said:


> You are playing an arpeggio here... it's so descriptive of a harmonic progression.





wpc982 said:


> your choices for one chord per bar are completely fixed





Morodiene said:


> What you have are chords that are arpeggiated - it's not a melody.





FriFlo said:


> Your melody is not very interesting as a melody


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## Voider (Nov 16, 2016)

It is just awesome what you guys created with the melody! :D
I really appreciate the last two big posts from you @just2high, didn't have the time yet to work through it but I will do soon


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## FriFlo (Nov 16, 2016)

There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding interesting melodies. It is not about evaluation! In some of Beethovens best works you find quite a lot of "uninteresting" little motives, but what he makes of them with the help of harmony, rhythm and form is of course great. So, what did I mean, when I called this melody uninteresting is the motive by itself, because you can find it so many times, but also the development as a completely predictable sequence without any surprise at all. That does not mean, it cannot be used, as I said before, but left out of the quotation.
So, you can certainly make something great out of something simple. But in this case, the OP seemed to miss the basic ability to even find different harmonizations of a simple melody. That is an entirely different question!


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## Morodiene (Nov 16, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding interesting melodies. It is not about evaluation! In some of Beethovens best works you find quite a lot of "uninteresting" little motives, but what he makes of them with the help of harmony, rhythm and form is of course great. So, what did I mean, when I called this melody uninteresting is the motive by itself, because you can find it so many times, but also the development as a completely predictable sequence without any surprise at all. That does not mean, it cannot be used, as I said before, but left out of the quotation.
> So, you can certainly make something great out of something simple. But in this case, the OP seemed to miss the basic ability to even find different harmonizations of a simple melody. That is an entirely different question!


I agree with what you've posted here. I think that actually, if the form of something is great, then you can have average chords and average melody and it will be very compelling because of the form. 

It's interesting to hear other people's take on what Voider wrote, but I do think the fundamental problem here is that Voider himself doesn't know what to do with his idea. That's OK, because we all have to learn this at some point. 

So Voider, I encourage you to learn theory - and don't skimp on anything. It's best to first learn the "rules" and then you can break them, but you have to know what they are first so you can make informed decisions going forward. I think you should also take composition lessons or a class if you can. Get as much work on the fundamentals that you can. 

It's a hard thing to just wing it on your own, and while that is possible, if you are serious about your craft then a good foundation will help you down the road.


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## Voider (Nov 16, 2016)

Well, @just2high was right when he said that my book seems to teach a lot about chords but not how to apply them. 
Or more accurate: It doesn't teach how to write a melody that will be ready to get harmonized. I've learned a lot about chords, about scales, minor substitution, parallel keys and more. I can write whole chord progressions in any scale that sound nice as standalone, but in relation to a melody it's a different thing.


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## Rodney Money (Nov 16, 2016)

NoamL said:


>



Sounding good but still not a melody. That is a sequential motif.


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## Morodiene (Nov 16, 2016)

Voider said:


> Well, @just2high was right when he said that my book seems to teach a lot about chords but not how to apply them.
> Or more accurate: It doesn't teach how to write a melody that will be ready to get harmonized. I've learned a lot about chords, about scales, minor substitution, parallel keys and more. I can write whole chord progressions in any scale that sound nice as standalone, but in relation to a melody it's a different thing.


Get more practice in writing a melody: a good place to start is to play only one note at a time - like a singer can do. You may even want to try singing it to make sure it's singable. Most great melodies move in mostly stepwise fashion, with a few leaps here and there for drama. Usually they are within an octave range, as well, unless it's operatic.

A good way to improvise melodies is to play them on the black keys of a piano, only one note at a time, again, mostly stepping. The black keys provide a pentatonic scale, which is good to have some limitations at first. You could also try the same thing with improvising on white keys, but only using the first 5 notes of the C major scale. Again, limiting yourself at first will help you get started. As you become more proficient, then you can expand to the entire scale.


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## NoamL (Nov 17, 2016)

Here is the melody in the original key (C major) so you can see I did not change anything about it. (The voicings are not the exact same, this is just the most readable way to present it. The actual recording is in Db major.)










If that is not a melody, then neither is this (6:36):



You will never uncover the potential of a melody if you worry about making every note fit in the chord either as a chord member or a consonant passing tone. If you play this game of *"closest fit chords"* you will NEVER surprise or delight an audience because their inner music theory, the part of their brain that unconsciously keeps track of tonality, will never be challenged. The art of harmony is throwing something the audience doesn't expect but that makes good sense. There's actually quite a lot of "bad music theory" in my harmonization but it works because it tells a story.



If you have a note "G" it's certainly *a start* to think what triads it could be a member of:

G minor
G major
E minor
Eb major
D major
D minor

If you are starting out, this is a good place to begin. But don't lose track of the reality that there is so much more that G could be!

It could be a golden add9 of an F major chord, or a noirish add9 of an F# minor chord.

Or the beginning of a #4-5 in Db major.

It could be a member of Ab maj7, or D m7b5, or B aug.

It could be the sus2 of Fsus2.

There are dozens more answers than the ones I just listed.

The real answer is to not think, just grab a handful of piano keys. *Bash the keys* until you find something that sounds nice. You have an inner music theory already based on years and years of listening to great music. You have the ability to recognize what works. Really let your hand stretch, grab any combo of keys you want even if they don't make sense with your theory learning, and you will just by accident discover great chords. I didn't plan that a D m7b5 chord was the right move for the 4th measure, I just bashed the keys until I found something I liked.

What your explicit music theory (from books & teachers) is for is understanding and *recognizing* what chords you have accidentally created. So that you then know how to voice it appropriately with smooth voice leading & proper resolution of tensions.

The opposite of this is just "following the rules." For example the harmonization using strict counterpoint theory at the top of page 2 is, as far as I can tell, perfectly correct and it also doesn't speak to me musically at any level. It's just "math."

What you should be thinking about when you are experimenting and bashing the keys is *tension and release*. Where is the melody _*going?*_ Where are you building up and when are you resolving? This is why I think @Rob 's harmonization along conventional lines, really works, it's because he has a plan for tension and release. The melody takes you somewhere. When I sat down to harmonize the melody a little more adventurously I right away decided that measure 5 had to be a moment where the music opened up and had a big adventurous feeling. For that to happen, the tension has to build up BEFORE then, which means chords with lots of nice crunchy dissonances and suspensions.

So instead of thinking one note at a time, think about musical architecture. That will point you in the right direction!

I don't think your melody is boring at all. It has a lot of potential, you just have to unlock it. There's magic in any piece of music as long as you think outside the box.


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## NoamL (Nov 17, 2016)

####ing around while waiting for my bus to get here... apologies to the great Christopher Gunning!!


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## cheul (Nov 19, 2016)

@NoamL wow this is an eye opening tidbit, but please, could you explain how you went from the attached piano reduction to the orchestration, what was your process to get this simple melody to open up into this adventurous feel ? I'm guessing the texture is getting more complex with counter melodies in strings, some help from overall crescendo and some brass entering the scene, low end rumble (Timpani roll I guess) balanced with a harp glissando. (but I'm not sure, I've never really practiced transcribing, I know I should)

Thanks.


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## Voider (Nov 20, 2016)

@NoamL I understand your point of view, but it doesn't exclude the other way round. You said I could smash just some keys and find a good sounding chord by accident and music theory will help me to recognize which one it is. You are right with this way and before I learned how to read notes and music theory, I played years on the keyboard and piano just improvising by ear and developed a feeling for "good sounds", I even recognized chords as child without knowing that they are ones or that something like chords even exist.

But still if I learn to understand the musical system on a very deep level, I can still mix unconventional things up, find "gamechangers" and take care of the musical dramaturgic development. I like the way of just starting out and deceide by ear what sounds right, but now I am discovering the other side of control and understanding. Therefor it is unalterable to understand how a melody and chords work together, and why they don't, if they don't.


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