# Superior sound of a Stradivari is due to varnish



## Alchemedia (Sep 17, 2021)

Study confirms superior sound of Stradivari is due to how wood was treated


Chemicals used to soak the wood include borax, zinc, copper, alum, and lime water.




arstechnica.com


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## G_Erland (Sep 17, 2021)

Funny sort, our species.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 19, 2021)

I also posted something related to this question a few weeks ago:





Science can tell us only so much about Stradivarius violins


A short article in Nature by one of the best science writers around, Philip Ball: Behind paywall :sick: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2017.21954?code=eb068a54-72fe-490a-b125-5e6301bf9e35 But here for free :) https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2017.21954 PDF...




vi-control.net




My husband tells me that Jennifer Ouellette, the author of this article, is the wife of a very famous physicist https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_M._Carroll


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## MusiquedeReve (Sep 19, 2021)

BRB soaking my VSTs in a mixture of borax, zinc, copper, alum, and lime water


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 19, 2021)

The idiocy of humans.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 19, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Study confirms superior sound of Stradivari is due to how wood was treated
> 
> 
> Chemicals used to soak the wood include borax, zinc, copper, alum, and lime water.
> ...


I find the first and most popular comment most illuminating


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## Soundbed (Sep 19, 2021)

I stopped reading the varnish article when it linked this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3271912/


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 19, 2021)

Maybe the next step is NFTs of Strads


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 19, 2021)

Seriously, whoever tells you that a varnish, of all things, is responsible for the timbre of an instrument, should be smacked with it over the head. These people and their "studies" - insufferable. And scandalous.

Actually anyone who in all seriousness believes in the whole mythologization of the Stradivari should be smacked with it over their head. I hope it breaks, too. I mean the Stradivari.

Maybe.


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## el-bo (Sep 19, 2021)

So, am I the only one who wondered why the infamous Strad sound was due to vanish?

Why? When?


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## Mornats (Sep 19, 2021)

el-bo said:


> So, am I the only one who wondered why the infamous Strad sound was due to vanish?
> 
> Why? When?


Nope, I did too!


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## Michel Simons (Sep 19, 2021)

el-bo said:


> So, am I the only one who wondered why the infamous Strad sound was due to vanish?
> 
> Why? When?


Yep, me too. My first thought was "about effing time".


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 19, 2021)

Part of the motivation of the author (Dr. Nagyvary, 87 y.o.) of the study might be found in his violin-making business since 2003:





Nagyvary Violins: Violin Shop: Violin Maker: Violins and Cellos


Nagyvary Violins: Offering fine violins, violas, and cellos based on 25 years of research on Stradivari, Guarneris, and Amatis.



www.nagyvaryviolins.com






> Personnel of Nagyvary Violins
> On a part-time basis include Mrs. Mary Ann Nagyvary (BS in chemistry, MS in food science), daughters Monique and Katie, who are involved in several technical and business aspects.
> 
> Master Guang-Yue in action.Chen Guang-Yue, Violin Maker
> Apprenticed with his father, Chen Chao Xuan in Beijing. Married, 2 daughters. In 1987, Mr. Chen was awarded the Gold Medal in workmanship for viola in the All-China Musical Instrument Competition.


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## kitekrazy (Sep 19, 2021)

I thought it said vanish instead of varnish.


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## RonOrchComp (Sep 19, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Seriously, whoever tells you that a varnish, of all things, is responsible for the timbre of an instrument, should be smacked with it over the head.


So, paint and finish affect a guitar's tone, but not a violin's? Seriously?


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 19, 2021)

RonOrchComp said:


> So, paint and finish affect a guitar's tone, but not a violin's? Seriously?


Fender's take on it:








Does an Electric Guitar's Paint Really Affect How It Sounds?


We asked Fender about the science of guitar paint and sound, and found that maybe the Smashing Pumpkins' Billy Corgan was onto something when he claimed paint color affects tone.




www.popularmechanics.com




Now what about acoustic guitars? Anyone has some ref?


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## Maarten (Sep 19, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Study confirms superior sound of Stradivari is due to how wood was treated
> 
> 
> Chemicals used to soak the wood include borax, zinc, copper, alum, and lime water.
> ...


'Interesting' but is it really superior? I still remember this article:









Pro violinists fail to spot Stradivarius in blind test


Could you tell a new violin from a vintage Stradivarius? Top-notch soloists couldn't in a blind test, and they even preferred new instruments




www.newscientist.com


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## cqd (Sep 19, 2021)

I thought they figured out it was due to a fungus that affected the trees in the region at the time..


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## NoamL (Sep 19, 2021)

> Superior sound of a Stradivari is due to varnish​



hmm. I've met lots of violinists and none of them had a glossy finish.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 20, 2021)

RonOrchComp said:


> So, paint and finish affect a guitar's tone, but not a violin's? Seriously?


It's all nonsense. The only people who are possibly even worse than the Stadivari cultists are guitar players in general. The amount of voodoo and pure BS that musicians are ready to believe, subscribe to and defend tooth and nail is ridiculous and saddening. The two most irrational and superstitious groups of people I've ever seen are (disregarding religious nuts and esoteric types, of course), number one: gamblers, followed by musicians. Sadly!


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## Easy Pickens (Sep 20, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's all nonsense. The only people who are possibly even worse than the Stadivari cultists are guitar players in general. The amount of voodoo and pure BS that musicians are ready to believe, subscribe to and defend tooth and nail is ridiculous and saddening. The two most irrational and superstitious groups of people I've ever seen are (disregarding religious nuts and esoteric types, of course), number one: gamblers, followed by musicians. Sadly!


Don't forget sports fans! But yes.


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## SteveC (Sep 20, 2021)

If you think that a 50 Euro violin is comparable to one that costs 200,000 Euro, I would advise you to listen carefully again. My colleagues would certainly not be at fault for such instruments for nothing. So far, nobody has been able to find anything particularly unusual in the famous instruments, they were probably simply made particularly skillfully.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 20, 2021)

Nobody said that a 50 EUR instrument is as good as a 200k one. But:

1) It's not the friggin' paint
2) An instrument costing 200k is ridiculous. And what we call "idiot tax" from where I come from


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## Polkasound (Sep 20, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> The two most irrational and superstitious groups of people I've ever seen are (disregarding religious nuts and esoteric types, of course), number one: gamblers, followed by musicians.


Interesting. I'd like to invite you aboard my boat where we can discuss this further. But there are a few standard rules:

- It cannot be on a Friday.
- There's no whistling allowed while on deck.
- You may not bring any bananas with you on board.
- If you meet a redhead near the dock, you must turn back and we'll reschedule.
- You must step onboard with your right foot.
- You may not say the words "good luck" while on my boat.


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## ptram (Sep 20, 2021)

The Stradivari, like the Garneri, the Amati and all the other makers, had no competence due to their genius, their study, all the work, the collaboration with the best musicians of the era, and the long instrument-making tradition in which they had grown. They just had the luck of finding the right varnish. Oh, the chance!

Paolo


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## davidnaroth (Sep 20, 2021)

Alchemedia said:


> Study confirms superior sound of Stradivari is due to how wood was treated
> 
> 
> Chemicals used to soak the wood include borax, zinc, copper, alum, and lime water.
> ...


1. Buy "Hey! Play! Kid’s Toy Violin with 4 Adjustable Strings and Bow" on amazon for 14.99
2. Lather it up with a whole tub of varnish
3. Join your local Philharmonic as 1st chair


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## Alchemedia (Sep 20, 2021)

davidnaroth said:


> 1. Buy "Hey! Play! Kid’s Toy Violin with 4 Adjustable Strings and Bow" on amazon for 14.99
> 2. Lather it up with a whole tub of varnish
> 3. Join your local Philharmonic as 1st chair


I could have sworn you stripped the poly from your Mood Guitars Strat.


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## TinderC (Sep 20, 2021)

I can tell you high end pianos sound different but not because of varnish. 

And here’s another thread from Tatiana about high end. Cables in this case.





__





The power of cables...


Audiophile cables: Pricing: Another unique feature of Allnic Cables is the very low cost associated when longer lengths are required. Here are current prices of some Allnic ZL cables (in USD): ZL 5000 speaker cable 2M: $3200 ($300/0.5M additional length). Bi-wiring is $400 extra. ZL 3000...




vi-control.net





I swear she’s sitting back and cackling as we all howl at each other.


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## Tatiana Gordeeva (Sep 20, 2021)

TinderC said:


> And here’s another thread from Tatiana about high end. Cables in this case.
> I swear she’s sitting back and cackling as we all howl at each other.


What? Moi?? I would never do such a thing!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 20, 2021)

Oh my God, the "cables" debate. I missed that one.

Where's the "converters" thread?


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## SteveC (Sep 20, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Nobody said that a 50 EUR instrument is as good as a 200k one. But:
> 
> 1) It's not the friggin' paint
> 2) An instrument costing 200k is ridiculous. And what we call "idiot tax" from where I come from


As I said before, of course, it's not the paint. Presumably these instruments were simply made particularly skillfully. You think it's stupid to spend 200 thousand on a musical instrument. Others find it stupid to spend so much on a car and still others think it is stupid to spend money on virtual instruments. At least you won't lose your violin if the maker dies. That cannot be said for software.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Sep 21, 2021)

The artists' favorite!


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## Hannes_F (Sep 22, 2021)

As so often, the original research article is more interesting and significant than what clickbaiting journalists make of it.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.202105252


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## Double Helix (Oct 20, 2021)

Resurrecting this recent thread about high-end stringed instruments--this is a short read about preserving the sound of Strads. Interesting results (about three-quarters of the way down) regarding double-blind tests.
Fully realizing that sound is subjective, I found the results (and the article) pretty interesting:









Inside the Extraordinary Experiment to Save the Stradivarius Sound


An entire town went quiet so the world’s most iconic violin could be immortalized.




getpocket.com


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## bill5 (Oct 20, 2021)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> It's all nonsense. The only people who are possibly even worse than the Stadivari cultists are guitar players in general. The amount of voodoo and pure BS that musicians are ready to believe, subscribe to and defend tooth and nail is ridiculous and saddening. The two most irrational and superstitious groups of people I've ever seen are (disregarding religious nuts and esoteric types, of course), number one: gamblers, followed by musicians. Sadly!


It's human nature and is hardly limited to instruments. Gear, for example, or plugins, or hell wine or any booze (whiskey etc) and on and on. I'm not saying there aren't any differences of course, but they are often exaggerated by people, who swear brand X is way better than Y etc etc and usually surprise, the "better" one is more expensive and how great they claim it is often has a direct correlation to how expensive it is (to the delight of the marketing and advertising people who are all too happy to make a living on all that). And almost always, blind tests result in them looking as ridiculous as they were. I'll never forget a big blind test some group did with vodka...you had your Gray Goose groupies and so on. In the end as I recall a very modestly-priced label won and one of the cheapest did well also. Gray Goose? Near the bottom lol


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## bill5 (Oct 20, 2021)

Hannes_F said:


> As so often, the original research article is more interesting and significant than what clickbaiting journalists make of it.


Reminds me of this:


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## DJiLAND (Oct 20, 2021)

OK I'm going to varnish my DAW now.


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## bill5 (Oct 20, 2021)

I'm going to varnish my mother-in-law.


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## Hannes_F (Oct 25, 2021)

bill5 said:


> Reminds me of this:


Haha, how true!


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## Gerbil (Oct 25, 2021)

SteveC said:


> If you think that a 50 Euro violin is comparable to one that costs 200,000 Euro, I would advise you to listen carefully again. My colleagues would certainly not be at fault for such instruments for nothing. So far, nobody has been able to find anything particularly unusual in the famous instruments, they were probably simply made particularly skillfully.


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