# At What Age Does "Making It" Become Unrealistic?



## Replicant

Recently, I had this discussion with a friend of mine and wanted to see what you guys think: I was recently acquainted with this middle-aged guy (probably early 40s) who is a long-time musician, but told me he wanted to get into film and game music, despite having no film or game credits or experience.

This got me to thinking

*At what age, if any, is the aspiration to become a professional media composer no longer practical?
*
If you want to get into it, you're going to have to start on indie projects generally made by emerging directors and developers. Most of these people, from my observations, would be recent graduates or maybe 30 years old at max. At that age range, many aspiring composers already have a lengthy list of credits to their name.

I imagine it would be difficult for a guy in his 40s to "break into" the business when most aspiring pros half his age would likely have either more scoring experience, more common ground with up-and-coming directors, or both.

EDIT: I've changed the thread title as I feel the original may have caused some confusion.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

Difficult, not impossible. But difficult.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

I think the main advantage the younger guys have is a greater willingness to put up with all the nonsense that comes with wanting to "make it".


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## Morning Coffee

Urrrm, I could fit into that 'middle age bracket', ha ha! Yes I think it is hard. I went back to school as a mature student and studied audio production a few years ago (it was good, but also a waste of money in hindsight), and although it is not exactly the same as 'composing for film', it is a related industry.

Even though I got good grades, I paid thousands of dollars to essentially learn, that you need contacts! This is why being younger helps I guess, because younger people might be more driven or willing to put up with crap, be more outgoing and possibly have less responsibilities. Oh, and I think it helps if you are on a certain side of the political spectrum too, ha ha.

If your friend has drive, ambition and is good at networking, I'd say give it a go, especially if they are passionate about it and good at it, but just don't give up the day job or bank on it as becoming a full time gig any time soon.


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## Parsifal666

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> I think the main advantage the younger guys have is a greater willingness to put up with all the nonsense that comes with wanting to "make it".



+1

I also think...to quote Larry David, "you have to know someone".

I lucked out myself. I was 40 when my first rock/metal/(whatever people call it) album was released. The only thing I did right on that album was hire four fairly well known names in the genre. I guess you could say it was like a networking thing, because many of the people they knew and/or worked with became aware of me and liked what I did (strangely, because it sucked! lol), so when I eventually started writing more film and concert music I had people to play it for, to present it to. 

Though I basically (barely) pay the rent with my music, I know I got super fortunate. I hope everyone here gets at least that much of a break in their future, because if you love/live music, to be able to make even part of a living off of it is about as satisfying a thing as I can think of.


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## DervishCapkiner

I'm 35 and started composing to film a year and a half ago ( though I've been writing music in many shapes and forms for a little under 15 years ). I have only about 10 projects I've been paid for ( in total) at all and the rest are my own personal portfolio projects but I have decided to go down to 2 days a week teaching ( I'm a music teacher ) in order to give this a real go. I think the factors involved in becoming a media composer are complex in that you not only need a very high number of skills that take years to acquire but you also need to spend half your time getting your business. I only realised this in the past when I wanted to be a session musician, I thought aaaaahh the phone will ring. It doesn't. It really, really doesn't. You have to be a straight up business person when you're not being a music person and that's the bit I think a lot of us have to work harder on...well at least me anyways.


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## Living Fossil

Lot of good points have been made.
My general advice would be: avoid generalisations that may build barriers in your mind.

That something is more difficult at a certain age doesn't mean that it's impossible.
If nobody has reached a certain task yet, it leaves you the possibility to be the first one.

Of course taking this step at the 40ies it might be a challenging or even difficult experience for your friend.
So what? It can give him also some advances, if he can make use of his experiences he made in other areas so far.

To get slightly off topic: there's a Rick Beato video on youtube, where he explains that at a certain age it's impossible to develop a perfect pitch.
Does this video bring any good to this planet? If it does everything, it maybe takes the motivation out of some elder persons to go on training their ears. My former teacher for harmony and counterpoint told me some years ago that he got the perfect pitch around the age of 70 (of course after being an active composer his whole life).

So my advice would be: It's a totally personal thing what may work at what age.

Bruckner wrote his "opus 1" at the age of 40.
(Of course, he was a great composer before, but this expressed how he felt about his own competence).


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## jononotbono

Not sure if age means anything but I will never stop trying to get somewhere in the music Industry until I die. I think writing great music that people want and not being a horrible person is probably more important than anything else to be honest!


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## stixman

Experience counts for a lot!
I am working towards scoring a film and I'm 52 this year but I have over 37 years under my belt making music and it gets better by the week so it's down to the individual IME


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## James Marshall

I'm of the opinion that being in your 40's is absolutely _not_ too old to start thinking about succeeding in a new career (unless it's to be a professional sports star, or something else requires demanding physical traits).

If you were to live another 30 years to an average human lifespan, well, you can achieve a lot in 30 years if you put your mind to it! That's a long time to left to make things happen.

I would say one benefit of starting later, is that your may have more disposable income to pay for sample libraries and gear  . If your musical output is good no one will care about your age, unless you're planning to be the next member of One Direction...


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## Syneast

Good question. How do you "network" when you're old enough to be the director's dad? I mean, there is a reason I don't go and see animated movies in the theatre anymore. The words creepy and weird come to mind.


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## CGR

Interesting thread. The age perception barrier is a tough one to deal with in all areas of life, and certainly in the creative fields, but in my experience creativity and talent transcends age, and I've been impressed and humbled by people in their teens as much as wise 70+ year olds. I believe that breaking down these age barriers will serve to foster a wider creative process and output, if we can look beyond the youth-centric culture which is so prevalent.


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## agarner32

I agree this is an interesting converstaion and I've had it many times in my head and with others. I'm 59 years old and have been making a very good living in music for decades teaching full-time, playing as a jazz pianist, arranging and some recording. Most of my income however has come from teaching at the college.

About a year and a half ago, I decided to enter the Think Space Education MFA. The main reason was because having another graduate degree would push my salary up to just under a doctorate which is a significant pay raise. However, I also did it because I've always had an interest in composing for film. I never had aspirations of becoming the next Hans Zimmer. I might have if I were younger.

I think it's certainly possible to become a professional media composer late in life, but probably not realistic after a certain age. How late I have no idea. 40? 50? 60? Even 70? It also depends on what level you're talking about. I guess on some level I'm a professional media composer because I've been getting a little work like documentaries and an occasional commercial. It's not enough to pay my bills, but it is paid work. There is no way I'm packing my bags and moving to LA to seek out a new career.

Having said all this, I don't think it's realistic to think one can get into the music business and make a really good living after a certain age. I'm not sure what that age is, but certainly mid 40's on is super tough. I'd say once you're in your 50's it's nearly impossible. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I think here is the biggest question. Can anybody name someone who has become a successful media composer late in life? By successful I mean making a good to great living just composing music. I wonder if some of the big name film composers like Hans Zimmer would hire somebody in their 40s or 50s to work as an assistant if they were really good and hungry? Maybe, but I doubt it. I certainly think it's great to follow your dreams and anything is possible, but the older you get the harder it gets.


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## Desire Inspires

Why would age get in the way? 

You are going to get older no matter what. If you want to do something in life, just do it and go all the way until you get successful or die. That is the only way to live!


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## agarner32

Desire Inspires said:


> You are going to get older no matter what. If you want to do something in life, just do it and go all the way until you get successful or die. That is the only way to live!


I agree and that is a very positive way to look at things. At the same time you have to be somewhat realistic. All this really depends on what a person's goals are. For a person in their late 50s, it's great to pursue their dreams and strive to become the best they can be, but I wouldn't expect that person has much of a chance to rise into the upper ranks of composer like Hans Zimmer, John Williams and you can fill the list up with other names. It's just not realistic. Is it possible? I guess anything is or so people say. 

My point is, I think a person should strive to do their best, but be realistic and know their place in the grand hierarchy from beginner all the way up to the top guys. As the late Bill Evans said, "_All I must do, is take care of the music, even if I do it in a closet, and if I really do that, somebody is gonna come and open the door of the closet and say, Hey, we’re looking for you."_


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## gpax

I take a more philosophical stance, if not also reaching to deconstruct the intent of the question itself.

What is practical is arguably different than what is possible at a given age, and I while read an attempt to generate a sincere and valid discussion which nuances both, it is undermined by a presupposition contained in the thread title itself. That, and what you describe in the preface of the post concerning your friend gave me pause.

Given the missed opportunity to ask what is possible at a given age - arguably at any age - irrespective of what others may or may not deem as practical, the question shows inexperience about deftly talking about such things. In other words, by first flashing a neon sign that screams “Too Old?” I see someone who is possibly too young, standing in my way.

It's a bit like recent forum threads asking if something is still relevant or valid: There's an implied notion of a shelf life, or impending expiration date by which a label or determination can be affixed, not to mention the misguided quest that this can be determined by consensus of opinion in a thread. And the worst part? People of various ages - my age - buy into this nonsense, and internalize it as what they can or cannot "practically" achieve.

I think the question of what is practical misses a finer point, which is the vast and expanded experience of years, including talent and accumulated skills, and the commodity this is actually becoming, beyond merely completing X,Y and Z as a media composer. Again, this notion of arriving late at building contacts, or who you know, or adding portfolio pieces or a reel to market, or that business acumen is lacking, is often projected onto age, as if that older "guy" embarking on what younger professionals are in the beginning stages of figuring out, has no clue what is in store, or what is practical. 

Oh please. 

Ten, twenty, thirty years down the road, you will be standing in my age, and I hope with much more success already under your belt. I hope you don't have a younger friend who potentially dissuades you if you begin a new career at that point. I hope you aren't hearing a younger you ask "is it possible I might be too old?"

But even now, a lot of current young composers who put all their eggs into the Epic genre basket, may, in five or ten years time, find themselves figuring out how to effectively compose (and compete) in other genres, or for emerging trends. Ethnic. Epic. Emotional. What “E” is coming next? We all, irrespective of age, can strive to be current, fresh, innovative, and relative. That is my practical advice.

Well you did hit a nerve, and perhaps that kind of input from others with some years is what you were seeking advice on? But the “too old” question is absurd, and quite frankly, insensitive when flashing as a sign. 

G


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## Parsifal666

gpax said:


> But even now, a lot of current young composers who put all their eggs into the Epic genre basket, may, in five or ten years time, find themselves figuring out how to effectively compose (and compete) in other genres, or for emerging trends. Ethnic. Epic. Emotional. What “E” is coming next? We all, irrespective of age, can strive to be current, fresh, innovative, and relative. That is my practical advice.
> 
> G



Good point. I started out writing film music upon watching/listening to "Man of Steel", and I can't count how many projects I've written geared toward the beyond-Wagner epic thing. The acquisition of Zebra HZ a few years ago just perpetuated that. It took me a grand total of a year to finally shake off that Sturm und Drang, almost-always-a-minor-key, muscle-bustin' style of composition, and one of the main reasons I quit is because it seems most people are doing that now, especially people who are just starting out in film, as I was.

Btw, whenever I take a look back on those "overly concerned with epicness" project, I can't help but cringe. There's so much unoriginality, Zimmer here, Jackman there, some Brian Tyler, etc. Nowhere did I hear an individual voice, and it all sounded so similar I could understand better why it didn't get me very far. It also tells me why I was wise to avoid Ark 1 lol!


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## Paul Grymaud

*"Is it possible to be too old to go pro?"
*
Yes !
*



*


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## Syneast

Parsifal666 said:


> Btw, whenever I take a look back on those "overly concerned with epicness" project, I can't help but cringe. There's so much unoriginality, Zimmer here, Jackman there, some Brian Tyler, etc. Nowhere did I hear an individual voice, and it all sounded so similar I could understand better why it didn't get me very far. It also tells me why I was wise to avoid Ark 1 lol!


Precisely why I avoid libraries like Spitfire's Bernard Hermann library. A library which sole purpose is to make you sound like composer X may be inspiring for a while, but after a while you will get tired of sounding like composer X. I like the more general purpose libraries like EW HO, because they sound vanilla enough to encourage you to find your own style. There was a time when I could actually tell composers apart even though they were all using EWQLSO.


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## Parsifal666

Syneast said:


> Precisely why I avoid libraries like Spitfire's Bernard Hermann library. A library which sole purpose is to make you sound like composer X may be inspiring for a while, but after a while you will get tired of sounding like composer X. I like the more general purpose libraries like EW HO, because they sound vanilla enough to encourage you to find your own style. There was a time when I could actually tell composers apart even though they were all using EWQLSO.



It isn't hard to sound _nothing like_ Herrmann with that library, in fact it's _just_ as easy to sound like him. And sound really good. Without knowing your musical goals, I daresay you might be missing out. Forgive if I called it wrong for you. It's just a great _library_, not "just" some tribute.

Same with HZ, if you apply yourself to learning the programming thoroughly, it really isn't as hard as one might think to get your own sound out of it. It's just that people bought it with Dark Knight in mind...

I bought the BHOT barely knowing anything about Herrmann, so maybe that's why I started expressing myself as a unique voice_ immediately_ with it. All I knew for sure was Psycho, and I had no intentions of doing anything remotely like that (though you darn sure could).


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## Syneast

Parsifal666 said:


> Without knowing your musical goals, I daresay you might be missing out.


Don't get me wrong. It has been a wet dream of mine for quite some time to sound like Giacchino, and he sounds a lot like Hermann. BHOT would be right up my alley. However, I fear that wanting to sound like Hermann and having a library that sounds like Hermann is going to result in a lot of Hermann sounding music. That is kind of lame. I have had a lot more interesting results from trying to sound like Giacchino using a more HZ-geared library like Albion, for instance.

Wow, we're off topic here.

On topic, how does one find middle-aged filmmakers to network with? There ought to be some kind of community for that sort of thing. I recently thought of applying for a local film festival but sadly there weren't any love for us old folks. Youngsters only. And I'm not that old.


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## CGR

agarner32 said:


> Having said all this, I don't think it's realistic to think one can get into the music business and make a really good living after a certain age. I'm not sure what that age is, but certainly mid 40's on is super tough. I'd say once you're in your 50's it's nearly impossible. Perhaps I'm wrong


Hmmm, I hope you are wrong. Some of the most inspiring music and performances I hear are from musicians in their 40's and 50's, and it would be a real shame if anyone of that age who has maybe 30-40 years experience, knowledge and skill in music was dissuaded from getting out there and collaborating. Making a good living - that's a tough one in this industry regardless of age.


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## storyteller

I actually was thinking about this question a lot last night, before I even knew this post existed. What I am going to might first seem controversial or age-bias related, but give it a minute, because I think it is founded very objectively on truth.

I truly believe music gets sweeter with time. Creators become wiser with age. Music is more clever, more driven by story. *In fact, most artists (in general) are not recognized in their time.* Value is mostly discovered when it is in limited supply and/or no longer available. There are a few notable exceptions such as Horner, Zimmer, Williams, and a couple others that defined the genre at a time when it was needed. In commercial music, cash was king and was spent mostly by a young demographic, so young artists had to be the spotlight. But even then, the producers and musicians making their music happen were generally much older. But have you noticed the age of the successful, mainstream artists today? Yep, they are generally in their thirties, forties, and up. Most new male country artists have to go through the gauntlet of slavery to the industry before that first single is released... usually starting in their mid-thirties now. This trend will continue.

Age is just a number, but so many people have been beaten into submission that age is part of a greater obstacle standing in the way of success. Yet the truth is, success has already happened for you in the future. You just have to find the path that reveals that inevitable outcome while not limiting your definition of success to a specific time/place/action/recognition. Dream as if anything is possible, create as if you are uncovering the path to your success... and be surprised when it happens, because it will likely be bigger and greater than what you limited yourself to thinking.


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## pz_music

I write mostly for games so I don't know how it is for film, but so far none of my clients and collaborators have asked me for my age on any project. I feel like people mostly care about if you can provide the kind of music they need and if you're easy to work with, that "simple". 
Becoming a professional composer is very hard nonetheless and it takes time. But I think anyone can achieve a lot in 5-10 years if they really put their minds to it.

Paul


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## IoannisGutevas

There are not too old or too young in this life. There are just things you do and things you dont. We are temporary in this world so live a life with respect and honor on yourself and on others. After all failure is certain if you dont try. So give it a shot! 

The buisness doesnt care about your age. If it did John Williams would be out of job for the last 30+ years. So dont beat yourself over it. Buisness wants you to make music. The better you do it the more work you will get.


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## Parsifal666

Syneast said:


> Don't get me wrong. It has been a wet dream of mine for quite some time to sound like Giacchino, and he sounds a lot like Hermann. BHOT would be right up my alley. However, I fear that wanting to sound like Hermann and having a library that sounds like Hermann is going to result in a lot of Hermann sounding music. That is kind of lame. I have had a lot more interesting results from trying to sound like Giacchino using a more HZ-geared library like Albion, for instance.
> 
> Wow, we're off topic here.
> 
> On topic, how does one find middle-aged filmmakers to network with? There ought to be some kind of community for that sort of thing. I recently thought of applying for a local film festival but sadly there weren't any love for us old folks. Youngsters only. And I'm not that old.



Put it this way, from what you wrote it sounds like you'd at least have a LOT of fun with that library. Not sure about paying out 500 US just to have fun but hey, I'm sure many do that and more power to 'em!


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## Replicant

IoannisGutevas said:


> The buisness doesnt care about your age. If it did John Williams would be out of job for the last 30+ years. So dont beat yourself over it. Buisness wants you to make music. The better you do it the more work you will get.



Well, the difference between him and the subject of my question is that John Williams already has decades of film-scoring experience and started in his 20s


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## InLight-Tone

Only if YOU believe that to be true....


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## germancomponist

I have always a smile in my face when I read such questions. The most importent thing is or at last should has to be the result, the music he writes.
O.k., there may be many young snobs in the industrie what always have a problem with "older" humans, but then again ....... .


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## Replicant

gpax said:


> Well you did hit a nerve, and perhaps that kind of input from others with some years is what you were seeking advice on? But the “too old” question is absurd, and quite frankly, insensitive when flashing as a sign.



You're taking this way too personally, IMO

The point of discussion is what disadvantages from a business perspective exist for those who aim to start in the field at a "late age"? At what age is the goal of becoming a professional no longer realistic?

I am 25; I am sure that to perhaps many posters, that is still a "kid". However, I'm already at the age where a lot of things, like going back to school for a 4 year degree in some drastic career change is not a feasible option. By the time I'd graduate, I'd be 30 years old and in trying to get an entry-level job relevant to my chosen degree, I would be faced with competition from 22 - 24 year old recent graduates and people in my age bracket would have nearly 10 years experience by then.

I got my first paid music composition gig when I was 18 and I started learning to play and write music when I was about 6 or 7, but took it seriously starting at age 12.

If I were to have started everything at 18, would it have taken me just as many years from then, I wonder? If I had started at even that age, would I have just given up by now?


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## robgb

I spent many years as a screenwriter and can attest to the fact that the movie industry is extremely ageist. When I turned thirty-five, I was told by my agent that I'd better write a lot of scripts very fast because I had about five years left before the doors started closing. She wasn't wrong. There will always be those who break through, so I say give it a try no matter what. But be aware that you do have one strike against you. The trick is to be so fucking good at it that they don't care how old you are.


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## Nick Batzdorf

> middle-aged guy (probably early 40s)



That's middle-aged?!


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## Studio E

I understand your feeling and the reason for asking this question, but as others have outlined, the question may be flawed. I got bit by the bug at about 34 if I remember correctly. I am now 48. I do NOT make a living as a composer, or as a recording/mix engineer, or a record producer but, I do all of those things with great reward personally. I have a day job and a family. I am definitely not rich, but I make a very nice middle-class wage with wonderful benefits. Although I don't have the luxury of dreaming up my next mega-theme while taking a bubble bath at 10:00 am, I do indeed have the piece f mind that the bills will be paid every month, that I can drive dependable transportation, that my children can get help from me if they need it, etc etc.

It's not an all or nothing thing. I used to think this way, but not any more. While working my full-time day job, I have been paid for a documentary, dozens of commercials, corporate films, governmental educational films, production demo reels, short films, and I am actually slated for my first feature film this year. 

Find a life balance that makes you happy. Try to assess whether a full time film composer gig would actually be the best thing. I think there is little arguing that being Hans, Danny, James, John etc wouldn't be awesome, but the field is shrinking as far as people that can make it THAT big due to the saturation of people like us and the continuing self-made money woes of the industry. 

Just keep working and make yourself happy


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## robgb

Nick Batzdorf said:


> That's middle-aged?!


Considering today's average life expectancy, I'd say that's almost EXACTLY middle-aged.


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## germancomponist

The cool thing of this thread is that it reminds us to the fact that we all at some day have to go. Yeah .... . Salut!


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## Replicant

robgb said:


> Considering today's average life expectancy, I'd say that's almost EXACTLY middle-aged.



In Canada, the life expectancy is 82 years. So 41 would be exactly middle-aged.


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## hummingbird

"*At what age, if any, is the aspiration to become a professional media composer no longer practical?"

None. There are no limits. Yes, the young have their energy and other good things. But do not write off someone in his 40s! That's young! Especially in the field of media composition, age is not a factor. What matters is understanding the difference between the music you were brought up with and what is popular today, so that you pitch appropriately to the market. What matters is having the dedication to get up every day and write, and get feedback, assess your current level of skill and work to progress. Because the point of it all is that process of creation and writing, collaboration and relationship-building. Someone in his 40s might have skills those younger do not yet possess. He might be great at creating relationships and understand how to structure his time effectively. He might have more income to invest in education and in setting up his studio.

We have a terrible ability to put people in boxes, label them, and assess them as limited. "You weren't born with it and you can never learn it," we'll say. "You're too old to start a new career," we'll say.

Well, my Dad only had a grade 7 education. At 48 years of age he was accepted to university and emerged 5 years later with a masters in social work. He struggled with some things, especially math, but he made it, and he worked in that field until he retired, helping disadvantaged youth.

Barbara Livingston, one of my heros, was a stay-at-home wife and mother. She made her operatic debut with Richard Margison at the age of 40 and was celebrated for her amazing voice.

There are many such stories as these, where the so-called 'experts' said it couldn't or shouldn't be done.

I'd say, instead of telling your friend he's too old, tell him, okay, how can I help. Here are some great resources (like this forum). Don't be scared to write your music, post it, ask for feedback, give feedback, and learn what you need to know. His chance at success is no different than yours or mine. If he does the work, if he writes the music, if he learns the business, if he gets to know people, if he has a professional attitude, it's all possible. And even more, I don't think it's my place or your place to discourage someone who honestly and with awareness wishes to pursue a dream. There's a lot to learn. But five years from now he could be further along his musical path, feeling vital and alive because he's creating music and it means something to him, or he could be sitting and watching GOT reruns. *


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## Nick Batzdorf

Wait until you whippersnappers get to be my age and are still at the top of your game.

Now shut up!


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## Replicant

hummingbird said:


> I'd say, instead of telling your friend he's too old, tell him, okay, how can I help



I didn't _tell him_ he's too old.


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## Parsifal666

I was forty, middle aged. Now I'm 50, which is getting old. I could be wrong.


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## germancomponist

I am 55, my girlfriend is 36, and I feel much younger than 55. I feel that I am getting younger every day.


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## Zhao Shen

I mean, advantage-wise? I don't think so. If you make great music, other people will recognize that. In regards to motivation, determination, optimism, etc... that's where things might take a hit.


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## Johann F.

robgb said:


> The trick is to be so fucking good at it that they don't care how old you are.



I couldn't agree more. I believe the big question is how proficient, unique and indispensable can you be?


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## Morning Coffee

And the good thing these days is that for a strictly internet based business or service, you can be a bit more anonymous if you choose to.


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## AlexRuger

Studio E said:


> I think there is little arguing that being Hans, Danny, James, John etc wouldn't be awesome



Not to get too off topic, but I can guarantee you that many, _many _people would choose to not step into their shoes if they really a saw a day in the life. Being them is awesome, but comes with tons of downsides and is definitely not for everyone.


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## jononotbono

germancomponist said:


> I am 55, my girlfriend is 36, and I feel much younger than 55. I feel that I am getting younger every day.



Total Rockstar.


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## Johann F.

germancomponist said:


> I am 55, my girlfriend is 36, and I feel much younger than 55. I feel that I am getting younger every day.



I used to say that I'm in the wrong side of the 50s but screw that... I have accomplished more in the last 5 years than I had in my entire career. In a town crowded with copycats and one hit wonders, I get the call for being myself. I may not know all the latest trends and flashy tricks, yet I'm solid at what I do, and no _upcoming modern epic composer_ can hold a candle to that.


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## Nick Batzdorf

Macron is 39 and his wife is 64.

Oh wait, you guys mean from the Middle Ages. Never mind.


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## IoannisGutevas

Replicant said:


> Well, the difference between him and the subject of my question is that John Williams already has decades of film-scoring experience and started in his 20s



Yes but thats not the point. Imagine if he would go "Hey i didnt start classical music till i was 10 my friend or this guy started when he was 3 am i too late?" . Its a vicious circle that kind of thinking cause sooner or later you will be 55 and you will say "hey look if i had started on 45 i woudl have 10 years of experience and probably been making money now but.. now its too late" ect. Like i said there are just things you do and things you dont in this life. Music is primarly an intellectual challenge and for that your age is perfectly fine. Do it! Try it! Cause in the other end is only failure and regret if you dont even try it so there is no reason why not to.


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## Kyle Preston

Living Fossil said:


> My general advice would be: avoid generalisations that may build barriers in your mind.



This is critically good advice.


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## Thomas A Booker

jononotbono said:


> Not sure if age means anything but I will never stop trying to get somewhere in the music Industry until I die. I think writing great music that people want and not being a horrible person is probably more important than anything else to be honest!



That's pretty inspirational. I hope you make it - I think you will.


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## thesteelydane

I certainly hope not. I'm now 41 and plan on making a full time living as a film composer by the time I'm 50. Sure it's late, but I have been a professional musician since I was 25, and I hope my 10+ years in various orchestras, and intimate familiarity with all the standard repertoire will have shaped my aestithic sensibilities in a way that will benefit me as a composer. I've always had music in my head, but never dared give it a go, as I was busy just being competitive as a classical performer. I eventually got tired of always playing other people's music, always realizing a conductors artistic vision rather than my own, so 4 years ago I decided to just quit the orchestra game and move to Vietnam (because of a girl). I started my first business as an online session musician, built a diy studio, began studying composition, got into sample libraries - all in the past 4 years. I'm getting into live viola looping with electronics, I have learned to work with sample libraries - I feel so creatively free compared to all those years spent in an orchestra (although I do miss that too). I'm dirt poor, and I still have no clue how to break into the business, but while I figure that out I'm busy studying, learning everyday and finding my voice, as well as building my remote session business up so that I can have that as a day job. I moved back to Copenhagen to try and get some contacts, but it's so damn expensive living here, and the classical freelance scene has gone to shit while I was away, that I'm seriously considering moving back to Vietnam where my living expenses will be 20 % of what they are here - just to have more time to write music and develop my voice.

I'll let you all know how it pans out in 5 years or so


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## Jeremy Spencer

I can't believe this is even a discussion, it's ridiculous. It is NEVER too late. I have done a lot of work over the internet, without ever meeting a client in person (or even known what they look like).....they have no idea how old I am and vice versa. And if a director thinks a composer is too old, they are a very cold individual. Dream, and dream big.


----------



## Parsifal666

Anyone here remember the old Nike ad?

*"Just do it."
*
And no, a hip hop jingle doesn't accompany this (no offense to hip hop fans).


----------



## bbunker

Replicant said:


> You're taking this way too personally, IMO
> 
> The point of discussion is what disadvantages from a business perspective exist for those who aim to start in the field at a "late age"? At what age is the goal of becoming a professional no longer realistic?
> 
> I am 25; I am sure that to perhaps many posters, that is still a "kid". However, I'm already at the age where a lot of things, like going back to school for a 4 year degree in some drastic career change is not a feasible option. By the time I'd graduate, I'd be 30 years old and in trying to get an entry-level job relevant to my chosen degree, I would be faced with competition from 22 - 24 year old recent graduates and people in my age bracket would have nearly 10 years experience by then.
> 
> I got my first paid music composition gig when I was 18 and I started learning to play and write music when I was about 6 or 7, but took it seriously starting at age 12.
> 
> If I were to have started everything at 18, would it have taken me just as many years from then, I wonder? If I had started at even that age, would I have just given up by now?



Torschlusspanik at 25?!? Early starter, eh?

First of all, you do a terrible job of estimating the value of experience in different things. You assume that because it took you a decade of work to get to the level you're at now that anyone starting an analogous process will take the same path. You said that this person you know has been a 'long-time musician.' So...you think that whatever music they were making has nothing to do with their new venture of...making music? You might want to rethink this a bit.

Secondly, unless you're an actuary, or take censuses, or work in marketing or advertising, there is no such thing as an 'age bracket.' And there will always be people who are younger than you who are better than you. And people who are older than you who are better than you. Just run your own race.

Going back to school at 25 is 'not a feasible option?' Absolutely absurd. Seriously - get out and meet some people who are going to school at 65, and tell them all about how academic life ends at 25.

Not to be too patronizing, but you need to get out into the working world where people get laid off after years of service and need to find a new working life at 30, 40, 50 or 60 to get some perspective.


----------



## gpax

Replicant said:


> You're taking this way too personally, IMO
> 
> The point of discussion is what disadvantages from a business perspective exist for those who aim to start in the field at a "late age"? At what age is the goal of becoming a professional no longer realistic?
> 
> I am 25; I am sure that to perhaps many posters, that is still a "kid". However, I'm already at the age where a lot of things, like going back to school for a 4 year degree in some drastic career change is not a feasible option. By the time I'd graduate, I'd be 30 years old and in trying to get an entry-level job relevant to my chosen degree, I would be faced with competition from 22 - 24 year old recent graduates and people in my age bracket would have nearly 10 years experience by then.
> 
> I got my first paid music composition gig when I was 18 and I started learning to play and write music when I was about 6 or 7, but took it seriously starting at age 12.
> 
> If I were to have started everything at 18, would it have taken me just as many years from then, I wonder? If I had started at even that age, would I have just given up by now?



Not sure of the merits of further engaging, but my point being that presumptions about age, and projections onto what constitutes
suitable, qualified ages, are ill-informed, at best. At worst, there is also an element of confusing what is practical and realistic with self-fulfilling prophecies by some who accept, de facto, that a certain age must be limiting.

But you already seem sold on a limited perspective, projecting onto a future you, a fear of that very ageism becoming your undoing at 30 years old. Dude, that is so messed up. Get into the phone booth and go rescue your future you, then come back and tell us how it went. Whoa.


----------



## mc_deli

My positive take is that I could not have tried "this" at 25.

At 25 I was very difficult in any creative situation and had such idealistic principles about music that I would not touch a cover, let only any painting by numbers or "brief".

At 26 (OK, 43) after nearly 20 years of working with all kinds of creatives on different projects/disciplines/countries I can consider "this". I am just light years better in the room and in any professional situation. I think that helps a lot.

I also could not have afforded a studio set up at 25. Strictly speaking I got my first real job at 27 just to buy a studio set up! But that's another story.


----------



## gpax

bbunker said:


> Not to be too patronizing, but you need to get out into the working world where people get laid off after years of service and need to find a new working life at 30, 40, 50 or 60 to get some perspective.


Exactly. I love how the thread has morphed into cross-dialogue about all our varied perspectives and experiences.

Just to underscore your points, I started my BA at 30, then got my MA. While still in grad school at 36, I met someone 16 years younger than me (grrrr). We just celebrated 21 years. Just another random point: I ran the San Francisco marathon when I was 50. Somewhere before and between all of this is eighteen years in church music, as a completely self-trained musician, composer, and playwright. Thousands of services, hundreds of choral compositions and songs. Left my middle school teaching career after twelve years, four years ago, to focus on my orchestrating skills. The school just called. They want me back: my boss says kids relate to me. Why? Because I'm fun? I'm youthful? I'm creative? The boss also wants the advantage of twenty-seven years of accumulated experiences I bring.

In other threads I've spoken candidly about a gradual progression toward becoming legally blind. It's the same thing: projections onto me by others, challenging me to then have to turn around and challenge them on presumptions, or attempt to inform/educate how good GUI design shouldn't force people with healthier eyes to squint, lol, let alone exclude me from use because a younger designer sees no problem with micro fonts. These isms exist in so many forms, most often in casual or passive use, that they don't always get corrected or called out. Some aren't even aware they are propagating falsities and myths.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

At 47, I'm now enrolled as student at my local University's music conservatory to take formal piano & theory from the bottom up. It's just part time, as I have a non-musical career as a power engineer. Although I've been writing music for tv, film and live theater as a second career for 25 years, it's something that will hopefully improve my musical development. And at very least, break all my bad habits as a piano player. My point? It's never too late to achieve anything, and everyone has a different timeline. I have so many friends that fell into the societal expectations of where you are supposed to be by a certain age. For example, a close friend who was once a very successful musician decided at 40 that it was too late to "make it big", so he literally sold off all of his gear and has now aged quickly (gone grey, gained weight, etc), has no more ambition, and is miserable as hell.

Just look at Colonel Sanders, he didn't even break into success until after 65!


----------



## Replicant

Starting to get a lot of butthurt guys who are obsessing over whether or not I called them "old" who are losing sight of the point and we need to stop discussing outliers as if they are a reasonable expectation to set.



bbunker said:


> First of all, you do a terrible job of estimating the value of experience in different things. You assume that because it took you a decade of work to get to the level you're at now that anyone starting an analogous process will take the same path



No, I assume that it generally takes years of practice and study and making connections and years to actually get some where? Are you implying that this is NOT the case for most?



bbunker said:


> Secondly, unless you're an actuary, or take censuses, or work in marketing or advertising, there is no such thing as an 'age bracket.



There absolutely is, though especially in entertainment.

We've already established in this thread, from the testimony of a former screenwriter, that the movie industry is extremely ageist; telling him to be prepared to pack his bags once he hit 40.

https://vanguarddaily.com/marisha-ray/ (Consider that actress Marish Ray has not publicly revealed her age for this very reason and states her &quot;age-range&quot; instead.) Elizabeth Banks, at 28, was considered "too old" to be Mary Jane in spiderman.



bbunker said:


> Going back to school at 25 is 'not a feasible option?' Absolutely absurd. Seriously - get out and meet some people who are going to school at 65, and tell them all about how academic life ends at 25.



I'm so glad you know about what is or is not feasible for me and the average 25 year old. Most people my age have young families, are starting to gain a bit more ground in their career and some even own their first house; switching careers in a shrinking job market isn't usually top of our lists.

I already went to college; going back after already paying off student loans is not something that is a practical or wise choice — you make your bed and lie in it.

I haven't looked, but I think it's a very solid bet that the number of retirement-age people pursuing a bachelor's degree are in such a minority it would be statistically irrelevant — the number of those geriatric graduates actually gaining employment after the fact even less so.



bbunker said:


> So...you think that whatever music they were making has nothing to do with their new venture of...making music? You might want to rethink this a bit.



Decades of experience in rock and pop music and film scoring are completely different things.



bbunker said:


> Not to be too patronizing, but you need to get out into the working world where people get laid off after years of service and need to find a new working life at 30, 40, 50 or 60 to get some perspective.



Most people who get laid off from jobs — trust me, living in Alberta I know plenty of them — and find "new" work are generally still working in the same trade or one where their skill set translates easily. My mother got laid off from her last job where she worked as a conveyancing secretary; a job she's done for 20 years. Guess what she does now? Same thing, but for a different real estate firm.

From the get go of this thread, we've had people in their 50s agree that it is harder and that's what I wanted to discuss: At what point is saying "I'm going to set out to hone my composition skills, network my ass off so that I can pay my bills by composing for film" no longer a realistic goal to set for yourself? It's hardly a realistic goal at age 18.

I wanted to be an actor when I was a kid and teenager. Even if I wanted to be now, it would be completely unrealistic for me to drop everything, move to Hollywood and become Starbucks barista #12, 345 and now spend years improving my craft, auditioning, networking so that maybe one day I'll be in movies. Yet, I'd have no shortage of people saying "Harrison Ford was 35 when was Han Solo!" or "Bryan Cranston found success in his late 50s!" all while failing to realize _very few_ of us are Harrison Ford.


----------



## PaulBrimstone

I think a few comments here are a bit harsh on the OP, who does make some valid points. Of course there is nothing wrong with trying to break into an industry in your 40s, 50s or whatever, but the sad reality is that it is effing difficult, no matter what the field. Try breaking through at an advanced age as a novelist or journalist—or as robgb said, a screenwriter; unfair or not, some jobs simply have a much higher fence to climb than others. Success is not impossible, of course, and it’s certainly worth the effort if that is the dream. But it’s foolish to not accept that there are many hurdles, no matter how much work and wishful thinking is thrown into the mix. The one consolation thanks to technology is that on the Internet, no one knows you're an (old) dog. I note that Chris Henson is starting a short series on breaking into the business on his YouTube vlog — if you're reading this, Chris, maybe you can chip in on the age factor, too?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

I haven't read every thread, but it seems like nobody has mentioned talent.

Why?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Replicant said:


> From the get go of this thread, we've had people in their 50s agree that it is harder and that's what I wanted to discuss: At what point is saying "I'm going to set out to hone my composition skills, network my ass off so that I can pay my bills by composing for film" no longer a realistic goal to set for yourself? It's hardly a realistic goal at age 18.



Man, you are very cynical and a stereotype of falling into the doomed "rat race". It's that type of attitude and cynicism that send people into a lifetime full of regrets and "what if's". I want to look back and regret the things I didn't do, not the things I had done. I live in Calgary, so I know all about the recession here. You do what you have to, and if that means working a job outside your profession to pursue what you REALLY want to do....why the hell not? Outside my job and composition work, I'm still playing every single weekend in a hair metal tribute (one of the top booked bands in western Canada) and have more energy than I've ever had. Why? because I love doing it; and if you love doing it, and preserver, you will find success regardless of age (and I'm the youngest in the band!). I also raised a family here, and managed to write for a ton of awesome productions over the years; have also composed for Theatre Calgary for many years (going into my 8th season of Christmas Carol for example). I also don't buy the argument that there's an age range in the movie industry...pure BS.


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Replicant:



> Starting to get a lot of butthurt guys who are obsessing over whether or not I called them "old" who are losing sight of the point and we need to stop discussing outliers as if they are a reasonable expectation to set.



Anyone who works regularly in the arts is and always been an outlier. I for one am not butthurt in the least, I just think the whole question is ridiculous.

And I don't mean that to be insulting, I mean what freaking difference does it make? If you have something to contribute, should you not even bother because you're afraid someone thinks you're too old?

Of course ageism exists, but there's always a reason you didn't get the job. Put the other way around, we can only deal with people who do hire us, and we don't have to sell ourselves to every person in the world.

I've always hoped to become old!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Nick Batzdorf said:


> I haven't read every thread, but it seems like nobody has mentioned talent.
> 
> Why?



And that's the thing....talent is talent, regardless of age.


----------



## Replicant

My god, have people ever missed the point. Perhaps it's because of the thread title and people not reading the OP, but...

It's not about whether or not you _can_ do something at any given age or about "creativity" this or that. It's about what is _realistic_ for older people vs younger _as it pertains_ to the media composition business. 

I'm not saying "oh, you're 40, you should just give up." 

but John Williams still composing and being in demand at almost age 90 is not justification to provide encouragement to 80 year olds to make the shift from bingo to pro-film composition because John Williams has been at it for 60 years and at his age, planning life past Tuesday is a bold move.

Are we all going to delude ourselves into thinking that taking up the mantle of "composer for films/games/tv" one day at an age where you're old enough to be the director's dad or grandpa and most directors your age are working with either young guys or guys your age, but with decades of experience doesn't put a _hell_ of a hurdle in front of you? Are we going to pretend that ageism (especially for women) in the kind of industries we're talking about isn't a thing?

I don't deny it's possible, but how many composers who broke into the business at age 53 managed to hit a level of demand anywhere near "the greats"?

I appreciate those who took their time to share their experiences of ageism in the industry and how starting at a late age has either been good or bad for them.

but I'm not going to agree with being labeled a "cynic" for being a _realist_ with the idea that it is difficult to be competitive when you've got a late start to something.

and on that note, I think it's a lot sadder to see people pursue something where the odds are significantly against them, but people encourage them to it with pie-in-the-sky optimism anyway and they fail regardless than it is to just accept the ship sailed — I've accepted that my odds of success with being an actor are, at this point, extremely low and not worth the pursuit and thus, I will stick to what I know.


----------



## bbunker

Replicant said:


> My god, have people ever missed the point. Perhaps it's because of the thread title and people not reading the OP, but...
> 
> It's not about whether or not you _can_ do something at any given age or about "creativity" this or that. It's about what is _realistic_ for older people vs younger _as it pertains_ to the media composition business.
> 
> I'm not saying "oh, you're 40, you should just give up."
> 
> but John Williams still composing and being in demand at almost age 90 is not justification to provide encouragement to 80 year olds to make the shift from bingo to pro-film composition because John Williams has been at it for 60 years and at his age, planning life past Tuesday is a bold move.
> 
> Are we all going to delude ourselves into thinking that taking up the mantle of "composer for films/games/tv" one day at an age where you're old enough to be the director's dad or grandpa and most directors your age are working with either young guys or guys your age, but with decades of experience doesn't put a _hell_ of a hurdle in front of you? Are we going to pretend that ageism (especially for women) in the kind of industries we're talking about isn't a thing?
> 
> I don't deny it's possible, but how many composers who broke into the business at age 53 managed to hit a level of demand anywhere near "the greats"?
> 
> I appreciate those who took their time to share their experiences of ageism in the industry and how starting at a late age has either been good or bad for them.
> 
> but I'm not going to agree with being labeled a "cynic" for being a _realist_ with the idea that it is difficult to be competitive when you've got a late start to something.
> 
> and on that note, I think it's a lot sadder to see people pursue something where the odds are significantly against them, but people encourage them to it with pie-in-the-sky optimism anyway and they fail regardless than it is to just accept the ship sailed — I've accepted that my odds of success with being an actor are, at this point, extremely low and not worth the pursuit and thus, I will stick to what I know.



Briefly:

1. Media composer does not equal film composer. It also doesn't equal "composer for film/games/tv." A Problem of definition, re: composer.

2. Whether someone who breaks into the business at age 13 or 53 manages to hit a level of demand anywhere near 'the greats' is irrelevant. You can be a pro and be nowhere near the level of anything resembling greatness. Also a problem of definition, re: success. For that matter, you can be satisfied with what you're doing and nowhere near the level of anything resembling greatness. That's kind of up to the individual to decide, isn't it?

3. Your list of people who have lost jobs and moved to similar jobs in the same field shows that you just haven't met people who haven't. Simple as that.

4. Here's something for you: are you nervous as you approach 30 that you're being left behind by some kind of field in some kind of rat race, and so you're projecting your angst and Torschlusspanik on others?

5. It's pretty out there to suggest that one group of people going into COMPOSITION have 'pie-in-the-sky optimism' with unrealistic expectations while another doesn't. Kettle, meet pot.


----------



## Replicant

bbunker said:


> 3. Your list of people who have lost jobs and moved to similar jobs in the same field shows that you just haven't met people who haven't. Simple as that.



That's because most people don't; they stick with what they know and is relevant to their skillset. Most people aren't starting entirely new career paths unless they absolutely must. Especially not if they're in their 30s and have a wife and kid.



bbunker said:


> 4. Here's something for you: are you nervous as you approach 30 that you're being left behind by some kind of field in some kind of rat race, and so you're projecting your angst and Torschlusspanik on others?



I honestly don't even know how to pronounce "Torschlusspanik."

Anyway, not really. I have been wanting to get into more film stuff (as I only did games until recently) and just finished up a new, decent-paying indie project, actually.

I think I've been pretty fortunate even now with the opportunities I have had, and I plan to continue to work as hard as I can at it, but if in around 10 years I'm still at the same level of projects I'm doing now, I'll probably just give up on doing it for money, film/game music in general or anything like that and just go to composing tracks purely for the sake of listening to on whatever version soundcloud will exist then.

I refuse to be 35 and still chasing after something as any sort of career when it will be obvious that it's got as good as it will — far more sensible to just completely fall back on something more stable, but at least I will have had a good time and given it an honest effort.



bbunker said:


> 5. It's pretty out there to suggest that one group of people going into COMPOSITION have 'pie-in-the-sky optimism' with unrealistic expectations while another doesn't. Kettle, meet pot.



I said it was "hardly realistic even at 18" and I can only see it being less so with time.


----------



## Parsifal666

bbunker said:


> Briefly:
> 
> 1. Media composer does not equal film composer. It also doesn't equal "composer for film/games/tv." A Problem of definition, re: composer.
> 
> 2. Whether someone who breaks into the business at age 13 or 53 manages to hit a level of demand anywhere near 'the greats' is irrelevant. You can be a pro and be nowhere near the level of anything resembling greatness. Also a problem of definition, re: success. For that matter, you can be satisfied with what you're doing and nowhere near the level of anything resembling greatness. That's kind of up to the individual to decide, isn't it?
> 
> 3. Your list of people who have lost jobs and moved to similar jobs in the same field shows that you just haven't met people who haven't. Simple as that.
> 
> 4. Here's something for you: are you nervous as you approach 30 that you're being left behind by some kind of field in some kind of rat race, and so you're projecting your angst and Torschlusspanik on others?
> 
> 5. It's pretty out there to suggest that one group of people going into COMPOSITION have 'pie-in-the-sky optimism' with unrealistic expectations while another doesn't. Kettle, meet pot.



I like a lot of this, but I'm wondering if we've established what "greatness" means yet. I'm honestly just curious, to get more of a context. Some would say Penderecki, Part, and Zimmer are great, some wouldn't.

Some would scoff that any film composer wasn't "great" because of the medium; that Zimmer, Williams and Herrmann were just hacks (Herrmann actually fought that classification for most of his career).

I know my definition: there is present-in-the-world great (I classify Williams and Penderecki as such) and then_ posthumous_ great (J.S. Bach, Mahler, to some degree Mozart, etc.). For me what the great did was write something so substantial, so apparently capable of century-sustaining endurance, that its greatness is apparent to both scholar and common person (even if the former is too stuffy about it and the latter will often admit he/she can't entirely grasp it). Aaron Copland's "Common Man", Strauss' "Eine Alpensinfonie", John Coltrane's "Giant Steps".

But that's just mine, and I'm really interested in what the working def is here.


----------



## storyteller

Replicant said:


> I refuse to be 35 and still chasing after something as any sort of career when it will be obvious that it's got as good as it will — far more sensible to just completely fall back on something more stable, but at least I will have had a good time and given it an honest effort..



At some point, the definition of "career" versus "success" must be measured, which is probably where this discussion is heading as @Parsifal666 brought up. Can you have both? Sure! _At any age that can begin!!_ But if your definition of "career" or "success" involves anything material, then you simply have to weigh what is more important to you. Is it better to have a lived a life surrounded by material means and have nothing, or to have lived a full life in the present moment of every day? If you say, "but I want both" then I say, do what you love and be prepared to release expectations of how you will be provided for. Enjoy it like you would if you were tubing down a river, or riding a rollercoaster for the first time. Doing what you love will provide for everything you desire IF you don't try to control the outcome. For example, why do you have to land a certain gig for a certain amount of money? Is it guided by materiality or because the gig is something you are passionate about? If it is passion, take it at the amount that they can offer you and enjoy the ride. Can't afford the pay-cut? Downsize your expenses until you have none. Don't want to downsize? Then we are back to materiality being ranked higher than doing what you love. You can only control the effort you place into it, and be thankful every day you get to live each day doing something you love. If you can't rationalize that approach, then it may not be something you truly love to do, or you haven't released your desire to control the outcome. Releasing the mind from rationalizing outcomes of life seems scary, but that is where every great achievement is made.


----------



## NoamL

Feels like a lot of young guys saying "No" and old guys saying "Yes" so I want to be data based...

Here are some relevant ages for film composers at the time of their "breakout score." Of course naming a composer's breakout moment is subjective... these are just my takes.

-----

*John Williams*, _Jaws_ - at 43
*Don Davis*, _The Matrix_ - at 42
*John Powell*, _The Bourne Identity -_ at 39
*Henry Jackman*, _Wreck-It Ralph_ - at 38
*Alan Silvestri*, _Predator_ - at 37
*Michael Giacchino*, _LOST_ - at 37
*Patrick Doyle*_, Henry V_ - at 36
*Thomas Newman*, _American Beauty - _at 36 (could be earlier)
*Ramin Djawadi*, _Iron Man_ - at 34
*Steve Jablonsky*_, Desperate Housewives_ - at 34 (or _Transformers _at 37?)
*Danny Elfman*, _Pee-Wee's Big Adventure_ - at 32
*James Horner*, _Wrath Of Khan_ - at 29
*Brian Tyler*, _Frailty_ - at 29

tough to place -

*Hans Zimmer*_ - _you could say as early as 31 with _Rain Man_ or early forties with scores like _Gladiator
_
*Howard Shore* - he scored his first Cronenberg film at 33,_ The Silence Of The Lambs _at 46 and _The Lord Of The Rings_ in his fifties

-------

So it's a pretty consistent timeframe - the people who hit it big were having a breakout moment in their thirties.

BUT, I think the bigger picture message here is that ALL of the gentlemen on this list, I think, would protest that they had been playing and writing music for *DECADES* before their breakout.

Don Davis orchestrated for Randy Newman and other greats.

Thomas Newman helped John Williams and did Broadway.

John Williams was a session pianist, wrote for TV for decades and did a bunch of films before he met SS.

Jablonsky, Djawadi, Jackman, and everybody else from RCP did additional music for YEARS.

Danny Elfman and Zimmer were in bands (and wasn't Brian Tyler too?)

etc.

So it's really more like these composers were working on music their whole lives.

It would be even HARDER now for someone to shift their career in their 40s or 50s today as not only do you need to learn all the music theory and film sense but now there's a ton of technology stuff too. On the one hand there's a lot of resources out there for self-directed learning but on the other hand, consider languages - there's so many great resources for learning new languages but you still don't see many people teaching themselves a new language as a retirement hobby in their 50s or even 40s. Brain plasticity is a real thing.


----------



## Replicant

NoamL said:


> Feels like a lot of young guys saying "No" and old guys saying "Yes" so I want to be data based...
> 
> Here are some relevant ages for film composers at the time of their "breakout score." Of course naming a composer's breakout moment is subjective... these are just my takes.
> 
> -----
> 
> *John Williams*, _Jaws_ - at 43
> *Don Davis*, _The Matrix_ - at 42
> *John Powell*, _The Bourne Identity -_ at 39
> *Henry Jackman*, _Wreck-It Ralph_ - at 38
> *Alan Silvestri*, _Predator_ - at 37
> *Michael Giacchino*, _LOST_ - at 37
> *Patrick Doyle*_, Henry V_ - at 36
> *Thomas Newman*, _American Beauty - _at 36 (could be earlier)
> *Ramin Djawadi*, _Iron Man_ - at 34
> *Steve Jablonsky*_, Desperate Housewives_ - at 34 (or _Transformers _at 37?)
> *Danny Elfman*, _Pee-Wee's Big Adventure_ - at 32
> *James Horner*, _Wrath Of Khan_ - at 29
> *Brian Tyler*, _Frailty_ - at 29
> 
> tough to place -
> 
> *Hans Zimmer*_ - _you could say as early as 31 with _Rain Man_ or early forties with scores like _Gladiator
> _
> *Howard Shore* - he scored his first Cronenberg film at 33,_ The Silence Of The Lambs _at 46 and _The Lord Of The Rings_ in his fifties
> 
> -------
> 
> So it's a pretty consistent timeframe - the people who hit it big were having a breakout moment in their thirties.
> 
> BUT, I think the bigger picture message here is that ALL of these people were playing and writing music for *DECADES* before their breakout.
> 
> Don Davis orchestrated for Randy Newman and other greats.
> 
> Thomas Newman helped John Williams and did Broadway.
> 
> John Williams was a session pianist, wrote for TV for decades and did a bunch of films before he met SS.
> 
> Jablonsky, Djawadi, Jackman, and everybody else from RCP did additional music for YEARS.
> 
> Danny Elfman had Oingo Boingo.
> 
> etc.
> 
> They were all doing this, even Zimmer, back when composing was a lot more pencils on paper and not so technological as it is today. So it would be even HARDER now for someone to shift their career in their 40s or 50s today as not only do you need to learn all the music theory and film sense but now there's a shit ton of technology stuff too. On the one hand there's a lot of resources out there for self-directed learning but on the other hand, consider languages - there's so many great resources for learning new languages but you still don't see many people teaching themselves a new language as a retirement hobby in their 50s or even 40s. Brain plasticity is a real thing.



*Thank you*


----------



## NoamL

I'm 30, by the way.

So making this list on the one hand I was like "Whew I have 13 more years until I have to write _Jaws_!" but then I was like "Shit! I should have written _Wrath Of Khan _last year!" 

One interesting note on this list - it was mentioned earlier that being an older guy meeting directors was a concern - but many of the composers on that list met "their" director (e.g. Elfman-Burton, Williams-Spielberg) in their thirties.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Replicant said:


> I refuse to be 35 and still chasing after something as any sort of career when it will be obvious that it's got as good as it will — far more sensible to just completely fall back on something more stable, but at least I will have had a good time and given it an honest effort.



That, my friend, is called quitting. I hear what you're saying (and I used to think like that when I was in my 20's), but once you hit that "magical" age, you will feel the urge to keep going. Why not?? It took me about 20 years before I started reaping the financial rewards from composing and performing (in my 40's). The payoff and personal reward far outweighs the time and effort; it's all worth it. Keep going, aim HIGH, and never stop. I know that sounds cheesy, but it's absolutely true. I didn't realize John Williams was 43 when he scored Jaws! And then look what happened.


----------



## Replicant

I feel we're making this thread too much about "me" now, but...



storyteller said:


> Can't afford the pay-cut? Downsize your expenses until you have none. Don't want to downsize? Then we are back to materiality being ranked higher than doing what you love.



I wish I could share your idealism, and I've heard this advice for many years in many forms, and I believe it is bad advice, personally.

I know guys who still play in "metal" bands and have never made any real money with it and as such are still flipping burgers, living in a crap apartment and don't drive. They have all the money and time for playing with their (usually terrible) bands, but their existence is generally very nihilistic and dismal.

For years, I've heard things to the effect of "Just forgo the luxuries most people can enjoy so that you'll have all the time you want for music or else you don't _really_ love it."

Nope. Choosing to be a musician is a very difficult path in life. If you don't start pulling real coin at it in some discipline and instead opt to work minimum-wage, dead-end jobs and forgo things like owning a vehicle and always living in cheap apartments, you are faced with the very real possibility of being single for most of your adult life; no sensible, reasonably-well-educated woman in her thirties or older are going to want to be with a 39 year old guy who still flips burgers, no future prospects and lives with his cats in a basement suite because he's a _totally dedicated_ bassist.

You may never have a real sense of career-achievement, not enough money to own a home (which is most people's _real_ retirement fund), be able to see places you want to see, or otherwise actually live life to its fullest like the majority of people can do — You'll just be another starry-eyed dreamer that life is passing by.

So like I say, at a certain point, I'd have to stop taking it seriously, demote it to nothing more than a hobby and find something else that is more practical so that I don't wind up full of regret and "what my life could've been" when I'm 70.


----------



## jononotbono

Experience goes along way. I'm ready to do pornos.


----------



## NoamL

Could be talking out my ass but I kinda feel like composing is a problem factor for relationships anyway. Without naming names, how many horror stories have you heard? Lots. How many stories like "That TV show consumed my first marriage"? How many people on this forum joke about Spitfire Audio being "purveyors of the finest divorceware"? I've heard so many relationship stories that make it sound like composing is tantamount to working on an oil rig, or being deployed to Afghanistan. "After I finished that movie I could finally see my wife and kids." Jeez!


----------



## Replicant

NoamL said:


> Could be talking out my ass but I kinda feel like composing is a problem factor for relationships anyway. Without naming names, how many horror stories have you heard? Lots. How many stories like "That TV show consumed my first marriage"? How many people on this forum joke about Spitfire Audio being "purveyors of the finest divorceware"? I've heard so many relationship stories that make it sound like composing is tantamount to working on an oil rig, or being deployed to Afghanistan. "After I finished that movie I could finally see my wife and kids." Jeez!



To quote/paraphrase the late Jani Lane of Warrant regarding the struggling musician:

"I remember spreading peanut butter over a piece of bread with a hotel keycard and that's when you start asking yourself...how bad do I _really_ want it?"


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Replicant, I didn't miss your point, I just consider it shallow. It's on the same level as all those people who told you to "have something to fall back on" or "oh, that's a tough business" after you answered what you do when you first got out of college (or were first starting out).

They actually thought they were providing unique and deep insight that hadn't occurred to you.

As a practical matter, writing music for film (etc.) isn't a skill you can learn without a background in music. I've never heard of anyone good who didn't start that as a child. Yeah Wes Montgomery started playing guitar at 20, but he had a musical background before that.


----------



## Smikes77

jononotbono said:


> Experience goes along way. I'm ready to do pornos.



Im still in training. Amateurs huh?


----------



## bbunker

NoamL said:


> Could be talking out my ass but I kinda feel like composing is a problem factor for relationships anyway. Without naming names, how many horror stories have you heard? Lots. How many stories like "That TV show consumed my first marriage"? How many people on this forum joke about Spitfire Audio being "purveyors of the finest divorceware"? I've heard so many relationship stories that make it sound like composing is tantamount to working on an oil rig, or being deployed to Afghanistan. "After I finished that movie I could finally see my wife and kids." Jeez!



I've composed things, and I've been sent to Afghanistan. Of the two, I'd go with composing.


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## hummingbird

*Is it unrealistic to change careers later in life?* No.

*What about talent? If you don't have it when you're 20, you can't possibly have it when you're 40.* Hogwash. 

*What about the experience that someone who started younger would have?* Yes, there might be a valid point there but at the same time that kinda negates all the life experience and knowledge that someone 40 might have compared to someone 20.

*What about the industry? Aren't they going to frown on someone 'just getting started' in their 40s?* Well, if you are intending to launch as a serious commercial artist, yes there is an age discrimination there based on marketing and sales. But if you intend to compose for media, production music libraries, etc etc, there's no age limit at all. In fact, someone in their 40s who has a mature attitude, is going to show up, pay their dues, be respectful and maybe even try harder because it means that much more to them... well that can be really valuable.

*What about the learning curve? I mean, it's hard enough at 20. If it takes 15 years, say, mid-30s, for someone to really break in, how can you possibly start at 40?* Who cares? If you start at 40 and break in when you're 55, that's totally 100% awesome in my book. I mean, Ennio Morricone won his first Oscar for scoring at 87.

When I was in university there was a gentleman in my class who was 65 and working on getting a university degree. All we 18, 19, and 20 year-olds thought he was awesome.

The best advice I can give is to remember that each person has a right to their own life and their own creative decisions. Even if someone starts at 40 and 'doesn't 'make it'' (whatever 'making it' is), that doesn't mean that their work and effort had no value. It meant something to them to pursue a dream, develop their talent, grow their skills, and establish relationships with others. In fact, I would argue that this is 'making it' for an artist. An artist writes, paints, composes, etc etc for the sheer joy of doing it, for the experience of struggling against their own doubts, and because it's who they are and what they are meant to do. If they arrive late to the party, I bet they bring a better dish to the pot-luck, because just being there is the stuff of dreams.


----------



## charlieclouser

I was 41 when the first film with "Music by Charlie Clouser" in the credits was released. 

To be fair, I had worked as a programmer / sound designer / mixer alongside the named composer on tv scores in my twenties, and had then spent the next fifteen years making records and touring with a very well-known band - so I wasn't coming into the industry cold. But it took until 41 to get a real "music by" credit on a real movie.

But I never considered this path "hard". If you like making music, and are any good at it, then it's just about the easiest thing in the world. Wouldn't we all prefer to stay up all night tweaking a piece of music rather than catching up on last week's TPS reports? The only flaw in that reasoning is that it's clear when the stack of TPS reports is finished, but it's never clear when a piece of music is "finished". What's that old chestnut? Great art is never finished, only abandoned.

So here's the thing: sometimes the part that's actually making the path "hard" is the part that people forget, or are reluctant to think about addressing - being able to objectively evaluate one's strengths and weaknesses, and those of others (aka "the competition"), and adjusting your learning and direction to best fit what you are actually good at. 

In a similar vein, developing your process of figuring out what questions need to be answered, and what problems need to be solved, and then devising a plan to solve those issues - and continually evaluating the relative success of these plans, is a critical skill. 

I might be one of the rare few for whom a super-fruity liberal arts education actually worked - the college I went to was founded in 1970 or so, and we didn't need to take classes, and we didn't get grades. We "rolled our own" plan for education and were given "evaluations". I wound up only taking formal classes for three out of my eight semesters, and was, in theory at least, studying electronic music. BUT. This college knew that the actual information you learned there would probably be mostly useless, and would be forgotten quickly once you hit the streets in the real world. The whole point of this place was, in a nutshell, to teach the students how to develop "*modes of inquiry*". Seriously, that was like their stated purpose. The school motto was "non satis scire" which translates as: 

"*to know is not enough*".

That really hit me. As a typical high-school graduate, I was fed up with memorizing formulae and facts, so the idea that a college wouldn't stress such simple acts of memorization sounded pretty good to me! But it turns out that the whole deal was about training the student's mental muscles, so that they would leave college with limber minds - minds that could easily take on any further learning challenges with ease. So that, later in life, whether they were being taught to wire up solar panels without electrocuting anyone, drive a forklift without crushing anyone, or score a film without disappointing anyone - they'd have the mental flexibility to learn how, but more importantly, have the skills to identify what they knew and what they *didn't* know, and how to go about filling in the gaps.

And that's the part that stuck with me. Maybe it's the only thing I really remember from college! I sure don't remember how to build a high-pass filter from a drawer full of resistors and capacitors, although I used to be able to do it from memory.

How does one build those skills later in life? You got me there. But relentless, objective, and critical self-evaluation has been an important mental process for me across all of the creative avenues I've stumbled down. I'm my own worst critic, and I'm quite eager and happy to proclaim that something I've just created is actually a pile of suck, and to throw it away and start over if needed.

In the sage words of some Doritos commercial: Crunch all you want, we'll make more. 

Paradoxically, the better you get at that skill, the less it's needed. I rarely need to re-do a piece of music because someone upstream from me didn't like it, and this is probably because I've been so self-critical along the way. I've already thrown it away and re-done it as I went along. Actually, I've gotten to the point where I don't really do it that way anymore - I'm self-editing so severely at every step of the way that I don't actually go through the process of completely finishing a piece and then sitting back to evaluate it before deciding it's not working. I can sort of tell when something is starting to suck before it's fully formed, if that makes sense. I can usually see the dark clouds on the horizon before I actually get wet.

The other talents that I accidentally honed, sideways-style, at my hippy-dippy liberal arts college was just basic communication skills. Since we had to make up our own learning process and get it approved by frowning faculty, it quickly became obvious that it was crucial to be able to clearly state your case, freely admit shortcomings as they were pointed out, and develop a plan to address problems while the journey was already underway. Hey, doesn't that sound like meeting with a director to present a half-finished score? Being put on the spot like this, at such a young age, really helped me in my creative ventures, where one is often required to describe, in fairly concrete layman's terms, some pretty abstract concepts (like how the "music" will make someone "feel"). Both your output and input circuits need to be up to spec - being able to effectively communicate your ideas (output) and understand criticism and implement suggestions (input) are absolutely crucial. 

aka: Give "good meeting". 

I guess that's sort of like "giving good head"? Be considerate but not timid. Really get up in there!

Have a strong idea, and present it with vigor. But if you *don't* have an idea (for how a cue should be approached or whatever) state *that* fact with equal vigor, solicit suggestions and ideas, and implement those ideas with the same conviction you would apply if the ideas were your own. Conversely, subject your *own* ideas with the same level of scrutiny that you apply to those dubious suggestions that are coming from external sources.

See, all that stuff is the "hard part", or rather, these are the skills that people sometimes forget, or don't develop in the first place - and that's when it can start to feel like your shoelaces are tied together.

Simple, right?


----------



## jononotbono

Replicant said:


> I refuse to be 35 and still chasing after something as any sort of career when it will be obvious that it's got as good as it will — far more sensible to just completely fall back on something more stable, but at least I will have had a good time and given it an honest effort.



I have no other choice than to chase music. It's the only thing I think of all day and night and only thing I want to do in my one and only life. And only having one life, I have to chase it. There is no choice for me. And to fund my musical journey I work 3 shitty unmusical building work day jobs and this only helps to fuel the fire rather than falling back on plan B and becoming some sad and depressed "I could have done that but will never know" type of music tutor teaching stuff from books rather than experience. There is no plan B. Well, there isn't for me because how could you possibly achieve plan A if you have put aside any effort into a B side plan?

In the past year and a half I have played Guitar for Antonio Banderas to sing over for an upcoming feature film, I've had my first two video game pitches (still waiting to hear if I got the job), I got paid (that is a ridiculously great feeling) for my first corporate video, pitched on two national UK TV adverts and I'm about to write up to ten minutes of music for a 90 min feature film. Also, last week I finally signed my first publishing deal for an exclusive Library album. I'm not saying this to brag. Far from it. I'm a nobody in the grand scheme of things. I just want stuff to happen so I'm trying to make it happen. It's merely Baby steps for so many here but to me, I'm feeling stoked to finally get a few opportunities after relentlessly hammering music for my whole life. Sure it comes at a massive price. What dream doesn't? But you should never give up on them. It's music! You should love it and never stop trying to do whatever it is you want to do with music. If you write great music that people want and actually endeavour to meet people (and not be a completely introverted, pretentious dickhead - not saying you are obviously) that like you and want your talent then what has age got to do with anything? I hate ageism. Perhaps it's just not for you? And that's absolutely fine but it sounds like age isn't the thing holding you back. I'm 36 by the way. What do I know.


----------



## col

Maybe... there is an army of comfortably set up smug old farts with no financial pressures that own all the latest and greatest library's, have skill, experience, passion, talent, no ambition and lots of spare hours to pump out a mass of " media " music that can be easily made available for commercial use all over the internet where no one has to know their age anyway.


----------



## Replicant

charlieclouser said:


> I was 41 when the first film with "Music by Charlie Clouser" in the credits was released.
> 
> To be fair, I had worked as a programmer / sound designer / mixer alongside the named composer on tv scores in my twenties, and had then spent the next fifteen years making records and touring with a very well-known band - so I wasn't coming into the industry cold. But it took until 41 to get a real "music by" credit on a real movie.
> 
> But I never considered this path "hard". If you like making music, and are any good at it, then it's just about the easiest thing in the world.



Hey, thanks for responding. That's what I love about VI Control, every once in a while, one of your heroes stops by to drop some insight!

Well, I assume the last line in what I quoted is referring to what I said by music being a difficult path through life? Surely for most it is. I don't mean any disrespect or patronizing tone in saying this (but you know how emotionless text on a screen is) but I can't imagine that a guy who spent his 20s working with a composer and then nearly 2 decades with Nine Inch Nails _would_ have found the path difficult. But most people, good and dedicated or not, are never in such a position.

If making it with music wasn't tougher than most other career paths, we'd all be doing it.

I'm from Alberta, Canada. If I wanted to make my life pretty damn easy, I could've sold my soul to the oil rigs and made really good money (until the inevitable crash), but I didn't.

Most people do though because getting a "real job" and some trade or education that will pay 50k or so a year with benefits is by far an easier goal than achieving the same with the arts.

Which leads me to....



jononotbono said:


> If you write great music that people want and actually endeavour to meet people (and not be a completely introverted, pretentious dickhead - not saying you are obviously) that like you and want your talent then what has age got to do with anything? I hate ageism. Perhaps it's just not for you? And that's absolutely fine but it sounds like age isn't the thing holding you back. I'm 36 by the way. What do I know.



I'm not sure why people keep spinning this back on me somehow.

I have no issue with the music I'm working on for whatever I'm doing at the moment. I travel to different dinners, conventions, conferences, etc. to network with people and to date, I've still made more money at it than any of the other musicians I personally know from my hometown.

I'm not complaining.

I'm saying that, unlike most musicians, I'm willing to give it up as a serious career if I'm 35 and finding myself needing to work at Wendy's or something during the day in order to keep the lights on.

At that point, I'd definitely go to a fallback career and keep music and maybe doing the odd project as a hobby because I can't imagine being middle-aged and being the "starving musician" stereotype that I've personally seen many times.

I'm not sure why this personal ultimatum bothers people so much.


----------



## jononotbono

Replicant said:


> Most people do though because getting a "real job" and some trade or education that will pay 50k or so a year with benefits is by far an easier goal than achieving the same with the arts



Today I painted someone's house for 19 hours. when I'm not at a very real job I put just as much time and effort into music. Time management and less procrastination is key to fighting the day to day grind but hey, that's just my opinion. Man, thinking of 50k a year would be an incredible amount of money for me. I'm nowhere even close. I'm an actual cliched musician. Hand to mouth and once in a while I sacrifice eating dinners with eating Beans on toast to support my latest musical purchase haha.

Edit...

The 50k a year thing is what truly is the problem. When people start earning an amount they become reliant on they have essentially imprisoned themselves. Again, just my opinion. The expression "All or nothing" exists for a reason. If you have nothing to lose then the hunger only grows.
Anyway, back to ageism...


----------



## Rohann

Living Fossil said:


> To get slightly off topic: there's a Rick Beato video on youtube, where he explains that at a certain age it's impossible to develop a perfect pitch.
> Does this video bring any good to this planet? If it does everything, it maybe takes the motivation out of some elder persons to go on training their ears. My former teacher for harmony and counterpoint told me some years ago that he got the perfect pitch around the age of 70 (of course after being an active composer his whole life).


Not to be pedantic or off topic, but I think Rick's point is that the idea of perfect pitch being an early developmental phenomenon is well supported by research and neuroscience, and the endless comments of "but I learned it" have _always _turned out to be BS, in his experience.
That said, what good does it do? Nothing in and of itself, but his point is _who cares_ -- you can learn relative pitch as an adult, which is equally useful, and has videos on how to go about doing that.


----------



## charlieclouser

Replicant said:


> Well, I assume the last line in what I quoted is referring to what I said by music being a difficult path through life? Surely for most it is. I don't mean any disrespect or patronizing tone in saying this (but you know how emotionless text on a screen is) but I can't imagine that a guy who spent his 20s working with a composer and then nearly 2 decades with Nine Inch Nails _would_ have found the path difficult. But most people, good and dedicated or not, are never in such a position.
> 
> If making it with music wasn't tougher than most other career paths, we'd all be doing it.



Well, I thought when I wrote that magnum opus that there was a risk that it would sound like I'm trivializing how hard it can be to do this - but that wasn't really my intent. Rather, I wanted to point out that it's often not the music part that's hard, but all the other crap. And the only part of "the other crap" that I've been good at is the communication / mode of inquiry stuff - I'm terrible at "networking", I don't go to Sundance and try to meet directors or whatever.... but those mental processes that I learned in college have definitely been helpful, and after 30 years they've become sort of second nature. But I sometimes notice other folks NOT developing or applying those type of skills, so I wanted to try to describe that stuff as best I could because it's been helpful to me.

But I still have a hard time thinking of music as "hard work". Labor intensive? Okay, sure. Long hours full of self-doubt required? Absolutely. But it's not like we're digging ditches in the hot sun!


----------



## Rohann

charlieclouser said:


> But I still have a hard time thinking of music as "hard work". Labor intensive? Okay, sure. Long hours full of self-doubt required? Absolutely. But it's not like we're digging ditches in the hot sun!


Having spent 6 years playing weekend warrior with the army, I can attest that I'd much rather labour over a piece of music for 8 hours than dig through 6 feet of clay.


----------



## jononotbono

Rohann said:


> Having spent 6 years playing weekend warrior with the army, I can attest that I'd much rather labour over a piece of music for 8 hours than dig through 6 feet of clay.



And not that's it's some kind of competition but having been in the Army, in a past life, and getting firebombed and engaged by terrorists in Northern Ireland, I am inclined to agree haha!


----------



## jononotbono

charlieclouser said:


> But I still have a hard time thinking of music as "hard work". Labor intensive? Okay, sure. Long hours full of self-doubt required? Absolutely. But it's not like we're digging ditches in the hot sun!



Your perspective is well timed to say the least.


----------



## Rohann

jononotbono said:


> And not that's it's some kind of competition but having been in the Army, in a past life, and getting firebombed and engaged by terrorists in Northern Ireland, I am inclined to agree haha!


Not at all -- I have no shame in not having been traumatized the way some of my colleagues did (who volunteered for Afghanistan). I'd take clay digging in Alberta over being firebombed by the IRA any day of the week.


----------



## bbunker

jononotbono said:


> And not that's it's some kind of competition but having been in the Army, in a past life, and getting firebombed and engaged by terrorists in Northern Ireland, I am inclined to agree haha!



What unit were you in? We visited the Coldstream and House guards back in...'09 or '10. Almost got to do the Edinburgh tattoo until USAREUR yanked the plug on it. But in the mean time, we had the joy of sleeping in that pit of despair they call Woolwich Barracks.



Rohann said:


> Not at all -- I have no shame in not having been traumatized the way some of my colleagues did (who volunteered for Afghanistan). I'd take clay digging in Alberta over being firebombed by the IRA any day of the week.



Volunteers to go downrange? Are these high-speed Guard or Reserve units? Unfortunately my trips were voluntold affairs 

We should have an ex-military meet and greet - you guys in LA?


----------



## jononotbono

bbunker said:


> What unit were you in?



I was in the 3rd Battalion Parachute Regiment.



bbunker said:


> We should have an ex-military meet and greet - you guys in LA?



Oh god no. I left for a reason. However, I'd be more than up for meeting if it was about music and more importantly, whether me being ageless and timeless is an issue?


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## bbunker

jononotbono said:


> Oh god no. I left for a reason. However, I'd be more than up for meeting if it was about music and more importantly, whether me being ageless and timeless is an issue?



Ha! I meant military-cum-music...there was a reason I left, too!! I think we've established a general level of timelessness, so you're solid.


----------



## KerrySmith

charlieclouser said:


> This college knew that the actual information you learned there would probably be mostly useless, and would be forgotten quickly once you hit the streets in the real world. The whole point of this place was, in a nutshell, to teach the students how to develop "*modes of inquiry*". Seriously, that was like their stated purpose. The school motto was "non satis scire" which translates as:
> 
> "*to know is not enough*".



I'm stealing this. This is something I'm hellbent on trying to teach my kid (who often seems as unteachable as I must have been at that age) and is a basic nugget of truth that evaded me until it was hard-won in my 20s and 30s. I wish I'd realized it earlier... maybe I would have come further. Still, accomplishments and success are weighed by your own relative metrics. I may have supported myself and my family just writing music for the past 23 years, but I still consider myself having a ways to go according to the bar that I'm aiming for.


----------



## Rohann

bbunker said:


> Volunteers to go downrange? Are these high-speed Guard or Reserve units? Unfortunately my trips were voluntold affairs
> 
> We should have an ex-military meet and greet - you guys in LA?


Canadian reserve unit. I actively avoided signing up for the voluntold regiment (though I was awfully close at one point).

I'm in Canada, unfortunately (unfortunately for meeting, that is, not so much living  ).


----------



## charlieclouser

KerrySmith said:


> I'm stealing this. This is something I'm hellbent on trying to teach my kid (who often seems as unteachable as I must have been at that age) and is a basic nugget of truth that evaded me until it was hard-won in my 20s and 30s. I wish I'd realized it earlier... maybe I would have come further. Still, accomplishments and success are weighed by your own relative metrics. I may have supported myself and my family just writing music for the past 23 years, but I still consider myself having a ways to go according to the bar that I'm aiming for.



Yup. The alternate version of my freaky college's mantra was: 

"To learn *how* to learn"

Or, to be more accurate, "to learn *how to learn how to learn*"

That was the most valuable thing they could teach. They realized you'd probably forget all those equations from calculus class, but they knew that in the future you were going to need how to learn - whether it was learn to flip a burger, drive a forklift, or fire up the large hadron collider. So if you can "learn to learn how to learn" then you'll stand a fighting chance.

That was the most important thing I learned in four years and $120,000 (in 1980's dollars no less!) of liberal arts education. Took me a decade to pay it all back, but it was worth every penny.


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## Ashermusic

Whether you are 20 or 200, it is unrealistic to think about "making it" in this business. But if it is what you are driven to do and you know you cannot be happy doing anything else, you do it.


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## Parsifal666

Ashermusic said:


> Whether you are 20 or 200, it is unrealistic to think about "making it" in this business.



Not sure there's been a more accurate post here.


----------



## Ashermusic

Parsifal666 said:


> Not sure there's been a more accurate post here.



But you left out the second sentence, which is by far the more important one.


----------



## jononotbono

Ashermusic said:


> But you left out the second sentence, which is by far the more important one.



Exactly.


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## Jimmy Hellfire

Ashermusic said:


> Whether you are 20 or 200, it is unrealistic to think about "making it" in this business.



Yes, I think trying to rationalize a succesful career in artistic endeavors per se is not realistic. If you go about it with that kind of mindset, you're either gonna get lucky (don't count on it), or at some point, every month that passes by without achieving success will gradually suck any bit of creative energy, courage and confidence out of you. I think it's a very dangerous path to take - not even because of the risk of starvation, but because it bears the potential to destroy your artistic self. Art and creativity require a certain amount of freedom, playfulness, even irresponsibility, so conversely, serious existential pressure can lead to a great spiritual debilitation in that area.

I think making music should be something a person does because that's who they are. If opportunities happen to present themselves, it's gonna be out of persistence and because you're making music and keeping busy no matter what. But I think that in order to even allow that odd chance to materialize itself at some point, a person has to be able to sustain themselves with something more or less stable along the way. If the stars align and the window opens briefly, go for it. If not, who cares.


----------



## Ashermusic

As a practical manner, once you decide that you simply "must" do it, as I _always_ knew I must, the analogy is this: For me, "making it" is like getting struck by lightning. So it is your job to ensure that when there is an electrical storm, you grab an aluminum pole and run out into the middle of the field for the duration.


----------



## Parsifal666

Ashermusic said:


> But you left out the second sentence, which is by far the more important one.



I already posted earlier my take on the second part (as 80s "Nike ad" as it was).

*Just do it.*


----------



## storyteller

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Art and creativity require a certain amount of freedom, playfulness, *even irresponsibility*, so conversely, serious existential pressure can lead to a great spiritual debilitation in that area.


*Love this! *Which is why I think the question came up. Early on it is easy to equate success with responsibility (and of course, there is always a gray area here). But what "the world" will try to beat into your brain as "responsible" is entirely different than the reality of it when you follow your heart.


----------



## thesteelydane

I forgot to mention in my previous post that I moved to Sweden in my last year at conservatory specifically to study with Terje Moe Hansen - a brilliant violinist and living proof that anything can be learned at any point in life, if you are willing to think outside the box. The guy began playing violin at age 20 and pretty much taught himself from videos of the great masters. He also invented his own scale system/method of mapping the fingerboard. He got into the conservatory within a year of playing, and 3 years later he was a professor there.


----------



## gpax

What I see is a discussion that has become much bigger and richer than the original post. I also see that the initial “too old” title has now disappeared.

Directing my observations and summary to Replicant, since I first chimed in, I also see a periodic attempt to control the narrative, or a belief that you can or must, insisting the conclusions have to be reached a certain way. You even asserted that several pages of what I might regard as meaningful thoughts and reflections, have continued to miss your point.

I don't think so.

You initially asked what is possibly too old. You got answers. Mine was to deconstruct the absurdity of invoking a “possible” presumption about age to begin with.

You invoked a friend, and his age, in making a determination about what the pragmatic and practical aspects of being older in the industry, or attempting such goals later in life might look like. You got opinions - but not consensus.

But the troubling trend is that you seem to confuse those expressing strong thoughts about age and ageism as being butt hurt older guys, lol. Moreover, in expressing an irrational (edited) or ridiculous sense of being able to determine expiration dates for your own future, you either ignore or scoff at some of the rather profound experiences and insights being shared. Why is this?

After reading and re-reading, I can't help but note that you seem intent on measuring future professional success as being only that which achieves a certain thing, by a certain age - which is certainly a valid outlook that perhaps works for some - but where you suggest a barometer that measures this value (as a person and composer) through a cynicism you equate first with age, and not, as Nick B suggested, the real foundational question of assessing ability and talent itself - or possibly lack thereof. My talent, and belief in it, has not aged.

As for that notion of a regretting a middle aged outlook that invested wrongly, I hear a lot of people sharing experiences that are anything but “that guy”. Pragmatic, yes, with widely different perspectives: some speaking from a place of regrets, others just embarking on second (or third) careers. And in this, I also see a lot hope being discussed. This thread has actually resulted in holding a meaningful forum for me. It's become more powerful than your premise. It certainly defies some of it.

In that, your post is a huge success in introducing me to a lot of incredible people who know they will not necessarily become the next (insert favorite composer here), nor is that the goal for some. There are many successful persons in here, nevertheless, and many who are determined to keep working, or working toward goals, irrespective of age or past years invested elsewhere.

Some are actually becoming better and more inspired composers having come at it from different paths. Thanks for posting : )


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Charlie wrote:



> "To learn *how* to learn"
> 
> Or, to be more accurate, "to learn *how to learn how to learn*"



And that even applies if you went to Berklee and studied film scoring!


----------



## Parsifal666

One of the mandatory things in autodidacticism is being open to learning how to learn. I have degree in music composition, but I did a ton of extracurricular studies (even in school), and I saw quickly just how imperative that is.

I guess it's the relinquishment of ego, to put aside one's interjecting self in order to open up more fully.

Wait, I think I'm about to qualify as one of the introverted, pretentious derfs that @jononotbono described lol!

Almost like he had me in mind


----------



## Replicant

gpax said:


> You invoked a friend, and his age, in making a determination about what the pragmatic and practical aspects of being older in the industry, or attempting such goals later in life might look like. You got opinions - but not consensus.



I got opinions, but many of them tangential to the point. A great deal focus on the physical ability and mental ability to do a given task at any age rather than hurdles that stand in the way of goals that pose more of an issue for one demographic than another.



gpax said:


> But the troubling trend is that you seem to confuse those expressing strong thoughts about age and ageism as being butt hurt older guys, lol. Moreover, in expressing an rational or ridiculous sense of being able to determine expiration dates for your own future, you either ignore or scoff at some of the rather profound experiences and insights being shared. Why is this?



Most of what I got, and I was literally told this a few pages ago: If you would stop pursuing music seriously as a _career_ when you're approaching middle age, "you're a quitter".

Yes...yes you would be and that's not a bad thing, more on this in a minute.



gpax said:


> In that, your post is a huge success in introducing me to a lot of incredible people who know they will not necessarily become the next (insert favorite composer here), nor is that the goal for some. There are many successful persons in here, nevertheless, and many who are determined to keep working, or working toward goals, irrespective of age or past years invested elsewhere.



and again, none of this ultimately has to do with the point. I changed the title because I thought perhaps the wording was the source of this.

Allow me to summarize:

There is no point, in continuing to pursue something as a _career _if you cannot live comfortably off it at a certain point. Nobody pursues being a doctor or a lawyer so that they can work a 12-hour, minimum wage day job and hope and pray they can go pro at age 50 or something.

We've already established that the "data" as it were, shows that most composers who started with music and pursuing their goals when they were very young are most likely to get their breakout gig somewhere between 29 - 41 years old. Your chances become _even slimmer _than they were to begin with after that.

The closest thing to a conclusion I've been able to reach from poster testimony and NoamL's findings is that somewhere close to age 40, the goal of making a comfortable living on writing music professionally becomes a much more difficult goal than for someone just starting out in their teens.

I have had probably 7/10 posters say something to the effect of "you don't have to measure success by money" and things like that but yet, *and here's the kicker*: I trigger the board by saying that "Well, when I'm around 35, if measuring success by means other than paying gigs is looking like it's all I'll ever have, maybe I should just demote it to these other metrics exclusively and instead pursue something that's easier to make a comfortable living at full-time." I don't know that it will actually be that way for me at this point, but

Here's what I got: "That's being a quitter" and "That's like when people tell you to have a fallback plan!"

Yes, it is and everyone should have one, because as I said — working shit jobs and cutting corners to save money for musical pursuits becomes an undesirable lifestyle as you get older. Nobody wants to be single, living in a molding apartment and still working a dead-end job 12 hours a day, or forgoing proper meals and eating beans on toast (as I think one guy said) at age 39.

For this, I was met with insinuations of just being shit or "maybe it's not for you". Absolutely unreal lol.

Anyway, I've got a couple of commissioned tracks where the deadline is the end of next week — so, until then.


----------



## jonnybutter

I've read much but not all of this thread. So forgive me for repeating something I assume someone has already responded - to the effect of: "Much depends on what your definition of 'making it' is."

If you're talking strictly about making money or making enough money to be 'professional', I'd say it's a perfectly good and pertinent question; it does tend to take a long time to get good at *everything* (writing, performing, recording, mixing), and it can take a long time to get paid too. But I think you can reach _artistic_ goals until you die, and if you can find a way to make them somewhat self-financing, that also counts as 'making it' to me.


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## rJames

There's so much that goes into "life" decisions like this. Do you have other people to support? At this moment, whenever it is, do you have enough momentum? Is your starting point at a level that can be sustained and built upon?
You could be 70 and retiring from your life as accountant and "make it" if you have the skill level, connections, talent, etc. You could be 20, just out of school with a degree and have no "talent," no "drive" and never be able to "make it."
So, the question is really better asked about realistic prospects. Self-evaluation or mentoring and external evaluations. And if by, "make it," do we mean making a living or scoring feature films? That's why the answers are all over the road. My simple answer is that there is no age that signifies that you cannot "make it."


----------



## MatFluor

I just chime in quickly:
I'm 31. I played in bands for the last roughly 16 years. I took another route education wise (didn't study music, but other disciplines) but am confident to make a living composing.

If I'm gonna "make it"? I don't know - luck is such a big factor, meeting the right people at the right time - but my goal is to make music for others - I don't care if I do porn and cheap TV-dramas - I want to make a living off it and working towards it. Will I score a Hollywood Blockbuster in 20 years? Who knows.

It's never too late, but I agree it gets harder. I can look back to years of making music and an academic education in different fields, what I need to work on is composing/production. That's a chewable bite. If I had to learn "everything" from scratch because I spend my 32 years never touching an instrument - it can work, but that's gonna be a hard road to take.

So - assess your goals - what do I have to do to reach it? What steps are necessary? When I see 20 years of making music and sometimes proper music education until some people scored their big movie - is it realistic to make a living? Is it realistic to be a rockstar composer, sitting in an Victorian Studio? Or is it realistic to be able to barely pay the Bills while your wife brings home the food (also luck involved to have such a nice woman).

I can say yes to a few points, I know my plan, I now it can be done. The goal might be being a rockstar composer - but my reality will be much, much lower. I aim high, but keep my feet on the ground.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Replicant said:


> Most people do though because getting a "real job" and some trade or education that will pay 50k or so a year with benefits is by far an easier goal than achieving the same with the arts.



The thing is....you can totally get a "real job" so that you can Pursue the arts (or whatever your passion) without having to worry about paying bills. Not sure where you live (either Edmonton or Cowtown), but I toured the western Canadian circuit as a drummer for 6 years back in the late 80's/early 90's....nothing at the level of Charlie C (who kicked ass BTW), but I was living the dream of living on a tour bus and indulging in the lifestyle as a rock & roll drummer. When the time came to raise a family, I became a power engineer and that's what I've been doing since 1994. However, it allowed me to work part time at pursuing my dream as a film composer (not as a hobby), and it was totally worth it. If I had made it a hobby, it would have sucked the life out of me as like many have mentioned, I live and breathe music. In a couple of years, I may actually be able to semi-retire and focus on composing as a serious career, as I've made some decent money that past few years at it. There is no manual on how to achieve your dream, you just need to commit and have realistic goal on how to get there. If it takes until you're 50? Who give a f**K? Seriously. If it's what makes you happy, that's all that really matters. Life is waaaaaay too short.


----------



## charlieclouser

Ashermusic said:


> As a practical manner, once you decide that you simply "must" do it, as I _always_ knew I must, the analogy is this: For me, "making it" is like getting struck by lightning. So it is your job to ensure that when there is an electrical storm, you grab an aluminum pole and run out into the middle of the field for the duration.



Good analogy. My grandmother's version of that was always, "Opportunity might knock when you least expect it, and you'd better make sure you're fully dressed when you open the door"


----------



## NoamL

Nobody is saying people can't pursue the arts at any age as a hobby or self-enrichment.

Charles Ives never went "pro" and yet his music is today much played and admired.

Realistically though... life is finite. A person can't learn and do and experience everything, and any professional field is a competition, between professionals, about how professional they can be.

And professional expertise is the product of experience. All the experiences you had (e.g. playing in orchestra vs playing in a band) add up to push you a little more towards having a competitive advantage in one thing or another. I spent 15 years playing cello in orchestras. That gives me a leg up when I'm mocking up orchestral material because I think about phrasing, tempo, polyphony and orchestral balances like an orchestra would. If I had spent those 15 years playing in bands and living on a bus then I'd probably not be as good at that. On the other hand I'd know a lot more about amps, how to write for drums, how to structure a song, how to EQ vocals, perhaps how to program synths, how to pitch to A&R, and dozens of other little areas of expertise. Instead I'm more or less clueless about those things.

To clarify I don't think ageism locks people out of the industry, I think that the field has become a ridiculous bottomless pit of expertise and ever-expanding interdisciplinary domains of knowledge and the only way to stay ahead of the absurdity is to have two things.

First you just simply HAVE to have some kind of musical head-start you can cling to that sets you apart: "You want modular synths in your score? Well I'm _the_ modular synth guy."

Second you cultivate the thirst to keep educating yourself throughout your life and playing catch up to what everyone else is doing.

Without both I just don't see the point of pursuing the career.

I mean all Beethoven had to know was counterpoint, orchestration and composition.... today people would be critiquing his mixes and his social media strategy.


----------



## Mishabou

Wolfie2112 said:


> The thing is....you can totally get a "real job" so that you can Pursue the arts (or whatever your passion) without having to worry about paying bills. Not sure where you live (either Edmonton or Cowtown), but I toured the western Canadian circuit as a drummer for 6 years back in the late 80's/early 90's....nothing at the level of Charlie C (who kicked ass BTW), but I was living the dream of living on a tour bus and indulging in the lifestyle as a rock & roll drummer. When the time came to raise a family, I became a power engineer and that's what I've been doing since 1994. However, it allowed me to work part time at pursuing my dream as a film composer (not as a hobby), and it was totally worth it. If I had made it a hobby, it would have sucked the life out of me as like many have mentioned, I live and breathe music. In a couple of years, I may actually be able to semi-retire and focus on composing as a serious career, as I've made some decent money that past few years at it. There is no manual on how to achieve your dream, you just need to commit and have realistic goal on how to get there. If it takes until you're 50? Who give a f**K? Seriously. If it's what makes you happy, that's all that really matters. Life is waaaaaay too short.



Totally agree with Wolfie, there's definitely no age limit on how to achieve your dreams. If you have the talent and work ethics, the opportunities WILL come knocking!


----------



## Replicant

NoamL said:


> Nobody is saying people can't pursue the arts at any age as a hobby or self-enrichment.
> 
> Charles Ives never went "pro" and yet his music is today much played and admired.
> 
> Realistically though... life is finite. A person can't learn and do and experience everything, and any professional field is a competition, between professionals, about how professional they can be.
> 
> And professional expertise is the product of experience. All the experiences you had (e.g. playing in orchestra vs playing in a band) add up to push you a little more towards having a competitive advantage in one thing or another. I spent 15 years playing cello in orchestras. That gives me a leg up when I'm mocking up orchestral material because I think about phrasing, tempo, polyphony and orchestral balances like an orchestra would. If I had spent those 15 years playing in bands and living on a bus then I'd probably not be as good at that. On the other hand I'd know a lot more about amps, how to write for drums, how to structure a song, how to EQ vocals, perhaps how to program synths, how to pitch to A&R, and dozens of other little areas of expertise. Instead I'm more or less clueless about those things.
> 
> To clarify I don't think ageism locks people out of the industry, I think that the field has become a ridiculous bottomless pit of expertise and ever-expanding interdisciplinary domains of knowledge and the only way to stay ahead of the absurdity is to have two things.
> 
> First you just simply HAVE to have some kind of musical head-start you can cling to that sets you apart: "You want modular synths in your score? Well I'm _the_ modular synth guy."
> 
> Second you cultivate the thirst to keep educating yourself throughout your life and playing catch up to what everyone else is doing.
> 
> Without both I just don't see the point of pursuing the career.
> 
> I mean all Beethoven had to know was counterpoint, orchestration and composition.... today people would be critiquing his mixes and his social media strategy.



My greatest weakness is that I struggle to articulate exactly what I mean to say.

I think my OP caused a lot of people to put up these defense and feel they were under attack even though they weren't.

You've stated here exactly what my thoughts are and I think it hits the nail on the head.

/thread


----------



## mc_deli

Ashermusic said:


> As a practical manner, once you decide that you simply "must" do it, as I _always_ knew I must, the analogy is this: For me, "making it" is like getting struck by lightning. So it is your job to ensure that when there is an electrical storm, you grab an aluminum pole and run out into the middle of the field for the duration.


Brilliant. Burned on the inside of my eyelids.


----------



## Rohann

This turned into a great discussion!



Parsifal666 said:


> One of the mandatory things in autodidacticism is being open to learning how to learn. I have degree in music composition, but I did a ton of extracurricular studies (even in school), and I saw quickly just how imperative that is.
> 
> I guess it's the relinquishment of ego, to put aside one's interjecting self in order to open up more fully.


Alongside what Charlie has mentioned, I think this is one of the most valuable skills a person can have. I argue that _taste_ is just as important in the arts (if you don't know what good music sounds like, and can't assess your own art with any degree of competency, it will be considerably more difficult -- this can, of course, be developed; I'm horridly embarrassed about my taste as a 10 year old), but I think the capacity of knowing how to learn is extremely important. I have a degree in an unrelated field (psychology and philosophy), but I concur that by far the most valuable thing university taught was the skill of learning (which leads to the skill of accurate "credibility" detection -- know _what _to learn, who to learn it from, and why it's valuable). It's making learning this art so much easier (it's a difficult enough art to learn).
Starting at an early age is surely an advantage, neurologically, but what's helpful about learning at somewhat older ages is the ability to more acutely hone what skills are important and how to work on them, and knowing where to look to find good info. I still think I'm a crap guitar player but I was able to play more complex lead lines with reasonable accuracy within a year after picking it up again (after having not played since I was 12). Creativity takes time and a lot of work to develop, but practice is really a very straightforward science.

Can't help but agree with the above though -- success is what you define it, and in the arts, you're bound to be terribly disappointed if you're in it for any other reason _primarily_ than because you love it and it's who you are. Extrinsic motivation is notoriously unreliable and quickly leads to disappointment. I originally started because I really loved music. A short while later, I found myself disheartened and disinterested, largely by the idea of needing to write music I didn't like and live in a place I didn't care for in order to forward a career, which completely flew in the face of why my biggest influences are my biggest influences.
Now I'm simply pursuing it because I _really _want to hone it as a craft. Success may mean getting to do a big picture at some point, or simply work on a few indie game projects. For right now, success means writing good music.


----------



## dpasdernick

germancomponist said:


> I am 55, my girlfriend is 36, and I feel much younger than 55. I feel that I am getting younger every day.



That's 'cause your girlfriend is 20 years younger than you...  Ironically, I work with a bunch of millennials and the make me feel really old.


----------



## jonathanparham

NoamL said:


> I mean all Beethoven had to know was counterpoint, orchestration and composition.... today people would be critiquing his mixes and his social media strategy.


lol good


----------



## sourcefor

Ashermusic said:


> Whether you are 20 or 200, it is unrealistic to think about "making it" in this business. But if it is what you are driven to do and you know you cannot be happy doing anything else, you do it.


Also you have to consider the phrase 'making it' and if you are making music and working in the music industry (and that includes, in a band, doing musical theatre, writing for TV or Advertising, Media presentations, recording local bands, indie films, etc NOT just doing a BIG movie score)and are successful at it and you LOVE it, to me you have made it!!!


----------



## SillyMidOn

Replicant said:


> Recently, I had this discussion with a friend of mine and wanted to see what you guys think: I was recently acquainted with this middle-aged guy (probably early 40s) who is a long-time musician, but told me he wanted to get into film and game music, despite having no film or game credits or experience.
> 
> This got me to thinking
> 
> *At what age, if any, is the aspiration to become a professional media composer no longer practical?
> *
> If you want to get into it, you're going to have to start on indie projects generally made by emerging directors and developers. Most of these people, from my observations, would be recent graduates or maybe 30 years old at max. At that age range, many aspiring composers already have a lengthy list of credits to their name.
> 
> I imagine it would be difficult for a guy in his 40s to "break into" the business when most aspiring pros half his age would likely have either more scoring experience, more common ground with up-and-coming directors, or both.
> 
> EDIT: I've changed the thread title as I feel the original may have caused some confusion.


Aged 85, probably. Before then anything can happen. Recently read the story of a writer who had struggled all his life to get published, wife divorced him, everyone had given up on him, but then in this 70s, first through self-publishing, hit success.


----------



## ed buller

i think you should probably give up if your dead.....till then keep going

e


----------



## Smikes77

ed buller said:


> i think you should probably give up if your dead.....till then keep going
> 
> e



And even then, you can start decomposing.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

sourcefor said:


> Also you have to consider the phrase 'making it' and if you are making music and working in the music industry (and that includes, in a band, doing musical theatre, writing for TV or Advertising, Media presentations, recording local bands, indie films, etc NOT just doing a BIG movie score)and are successful at it and you LOVE it, to me you have made it!!!



Yes, a very good point! At what point do you honestly say you've "made it"? Even when you achieve that unreachable dream that you worked so hard to realize, you will soon set your sights set on something else; but that's what keeps one fueled and driven. It's human nature to keep reaching, just like when someone wins the lottery and say's "this is a dream come true, I will be totally happy and content forever"...this soon wears off because they typically aren't truly fulfilled at the "core". As others have mentioned, it's far better to be happy pursuing your passion (and ultimately making a living from in in some cases), then to be in a safe comfort zone which equates to a humdrum existence.


----------



## SillyMidOn

Smikes77 said:


> And even then, you can start decomposing.


_They're decomposing composers.
There's nothing much anyone can do.
You can still hear Beethoven,
But Beethoven cannot hear you.

Handel and Haydn and Rachmaninov
Enjoyed a nice drink with their meal,
But nowadays, no one will serve them,
And their gravy is left to congeal.

Verdi and Wagner delighted the crowds
With their highly original sound.
The pianos they played are still working,
But they're both six feet underground.

They're decomposing composers.
There's less of them every year.
You can say what you like to Debussy,
But there's not much of him left to hear._

Courtesy of Monty Python


----------



## AdamAlake

Replicant said:


> I got opinions, but many of them tangential to the point. A great deal focus on the physical ability and mental ability to do a given task at any age rather than hurdles that stand in the way of goals that pose more of an issue for one demographic than another.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of what I got, and I was literally told this a few pages ago: If you would stop pursuing music seriously as a _career_ when you're approaching middle age, "you're a quitter".
> 
> Yes...yes you would be and that's not a bad thing, more on this in a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> and again, none of this ultimately has to do with the point. I changed the title because I thought perhaps the wording was the source of this.
> 
> Allow me to summarize:
> 
> There is no point, in continuing to pursue something as a _career _if you cannot live comfortably off it at a certain point. Nobody pursues being a doctor or a lawyer so that they can work a 12-hour, minimum wage day job and hope and pray they can go pro at age 50 or something.
> 
> We've already established that the "data" as it were, shows that most composers who started with music and pursuing their goals when they were very young are most likely to get their breakout gig somewhere between 29 - 41 years old. Your chances become _even slimmer _than they were to begin with after that.
> 
> The closest thing to a conclusion I've been able to reach from poster testimony and NoamL's findings is that somewhere close to age 40, the goal of making a comfortable living on writing music professionally becomes a much more difficult goal than for someone just starting out in their teens.
> 
> I have had probably 7/10 posters say something to the effect of "you don't have to measure success by money" and things like that but yet, *and here's the kicker*: I trigger the board by saying that "Well, when I'm around 35, if measuring success by means other than paying gigs is looking like it's all I'll ever have, maybe I should just demote it to these other metrics exclusively and instead pursue something that's easier to make a comfortable living at full-time." I don't know that it will actually be that way for me at this point, but
> 
> Here's what I got: "That's being a quitter" and "That's like when people tell you to have a fallback plan!"
> 
> Yes, it is and everyone should have one, because as I said — working shit jobs and cutting corners to save money for musical pursuits becomes an undesirable lifestyle as you get older. Nobody wants to be single, living in a molding apartment and still working a dead-end job 12 hours a day, or forgoing proper meals and eating beans on toast (as I think one guy said) at age 39.
> 
> For this, I was met with insinuations of just being shit or "maybe it's not for you". Absolutely unreal lol.
> 
> Anyway, I've got a couple of commissioned tracks where the deadline is the end of next week — so, until then.



See, I do not understand why you even created this thread. To you, material safety is the priority - if music does not provide you with that, you said that you will ditch it and make it in your free time which will translate into you not making any at some point. Nothing wrong with that, that is your path, but here you are wondering about a matter that does not concern you in the slightest and I suspect you are only collecting "proof" to have ammunition to try and shoot down the dream of the person you mentioned in the OP, because you are not the kind of a person to truly pursue what is important to you, so you do not want people near you to do just that.

But you are wasting your time, because if it is really his true goal, he will not be swayed by anything you say to him - that is what it means to be determined.

You have to understand that people that choose this career think nothing like you do, they perceive the world in a completely different way, You mention some people have low-paying jobs, no car, risk being single.

They honestly do not care in the slightest. What is important to you matters little to them, they are in it for the music, not living a luxurious life. When you worry about whether you can afford something or not, they worry about whether the last bar they wrote was good enough.

You clearly do not have the mindset of the working musician, you just are someone who happens to work in music.

Piece of advice - do your thing and they will do theirs - because you are not going to change other people.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Replicant said:


> working shit jobs and cutting corners to save money for musical pursuits becomes an undesirable lifestyle as you get older. Nobody wants to be single, living in a molding apartment and still working a dead-end job 12 hours a day, or forgoing proper meals and eating beans on toast (as I think one guy said) at age 39.



But if the musical world outside of that job makes you happy, then absolutely. I would rather be happy and feeding my passions as opposed to becoming a societal puppet and living a drawn out, boring life just because I want a fancy car and materialistic status quo.


----------



## jonnybutter

Wolfie2112 said:


> But if the musical world outside of that job makes you happy, then absolutely. I would rather be happy and feeding my passions as opposed to becoming a societal puppet and living a drawn out, boring life just because I want a fancy car and materialistic status quo.



I draw the line at beans on toast. I'll do just about anything for music, but not that


----------



## Ashermusic

I will add this:

When I started out, it was easier to make a living, albeit an erratic one, than now. When I moved to LA in 1971 at 21 years old, I could play and sing with my band or solo or duo 5-6 nights a week in hotel bars, bars, and lounges. And then I worked as a musical director and arranger for singers and TV actors who also sang. Also, I got signed a few times as a staffwriter to a publishing companies, so I got a weekly advance against future royalties. And songs I wrote got recorded, which meant some mechanical and airplay royalties.Also, I played piano on toy commercials, printed scores in Logic for other composers on orchestra sessions, scored a few TV movies and series, and low budget films, which generally paid $15-30 k, of which I usually spent half, kept half, and on and on. And of course, "Zorro" has been a great help to me all these years. And then came teaching piano and becoming a Logic Pro teacher, author and consultant.

Point being, because I had a diverse set of adequate skills and was always improving them because I was able to be paid to work on them, I was always able to cobble together a living, not lavish, some great years, lots of lean years, never knowing. If I were to start out now, there would not be the nightclub work, because that has virtually disappeared in LA. Ditto the staffwriter deals. Ditto the playing piano on commercials. Ditto most of the score printout work as the guys I did it for cannot get arrested to score films and TV shows anymore.

So, it would be a lot harder now. And yet, I am sure I would still pursue it and still find a way. But nobody should try to do it for a living unless you feel, "If I do not do this I will die,_ no way_ I can be happy doing anything else" because you are up against the younger versions of Jay Asher, and believe me, that is how they feel.


----------



## Replicant

AdamAlake said:


> See, I do not understand why you even created this thread. To you, material safety is the priority - if music does not provide you with that, you said that you will ditch it and make it in your free time which will translate into you not making any at some point. Nothing wrong with that, that is your path, but here you are wondering about a matter that does not concern you in the slightest and I suspect you are only collecting "proof" to have ammunition to try and shoot down the dream of the person you mentioned in the OP, because you are not the kind of a person to truly pursue what is important to you, so you do not want people near you to do just that.
> 
> But you are wasting your time, because if it is really his true goal, he will not be swayed by anything you say to him - that is what it means to be determined.
> 
> You have to understand that people that choose this career think nothing like you do, they perceive the world in a completely different way, You mention some people have low-paying jobs, no car, risk being single.
> 
> They honestly do not care in the slightest. What is important to you matters little to them, they are in it for the music, not living a luxurious life. When you worry about whether you can afford something or not, they worry about whether the last bar they wrote was good enough.
> 
> You clearly do not have the mindset of the working musician, you just are someone who happens to work in music.
> 
> Piece of advice - do your thing and they will do theirs - because you are not going to change other people.



Strawman argument and frankly, these kinds of "I'm going to make all these assumptions about you and whether or not you're 'worthy' or your mindset is 'correct' etc." are starting to push me towards _less civil_ discussion.

Nowhere did I ever state I have any intention to tell him what to do one way or the other. I _hope_ he succeeds.

It simply got me to pondering the practicality/challenges of pursuing the career middle-age and beyond and I sought testimony of people who have been there. Because as I said earlier, just because John Williams is 80 something and composing for a living isn't cause to say that a 70 year old starting out faces the same odds as a 23 year old.


----------



## rJames

Replicant said:


> Strawman argument and frankly, these kinds of "I'm going to make all these assumptions about you and whether or not you're 'worthy' or your mindset is 'correct' etc." are starting to push me towards _less civil_ discussion.
> 
> Nowhere did I ever state I have any intention to tell him what to do one way or the other. I hope he succeeds.
> 
> It simply got me to pondering the practicality/challenges of pursuing the career middle-age and beyond and I sought testimony of people who have been there. Because as I said earlier, just because John Williams is 80 something and composing for a living isn't cause to say that a 70 year old starting out faces the same odds as a 23 year old.


AdamAlake does not speak for all musicians or all composers or whoever he has determined he is speaking for when he says, "They honestly do not care in the slightest. What is important to you matters little to them, they are in it for the music, not living a luxurious life. When you worry about whether you can afford something or not, they worry about whether the last bar they wrote was good enough."

Lets just speak for ourselves here. I care about the next note and I care about my family. Everyone is different. No one is right or better (in their mindset).


----------



## Replicant

rJames said:


> AdamAlake does not speak for all musicians or all composers or whoever he has determined he is speaking for when he says, "They honestly do not care in the slightest. What is important to you matters little to them, they are in it for the music, not living a luxurious life. When you worry about whether you can afford something or not, they worry about whether the last bar they wrote was good enough."
> 
> Lets just speak for ourselves here. I care about the next note and I care about my family. Everyone is different. No one is right or better (in their mindset).



I've heard the "If you aren't willing to live borderline like a hobo your whole life, then you aren't _really_ in it for the music!" rhetoric for years. In fact, when I was a teenager with head-in-the-clouds aspirations of being a professional metal guitarist, I would often say the same.

Put simply: That's horseshit.

I recall on Ultimate-Guitar about 2 years ago, there was an article about how some singer in a metal band was quitting because the following year, he was turning 30 and going to get married. He spent the past 7 years of his life touring non-stop with the band but the average income was between $2-300 a month.

The comments had no shortage of people saying "He just isn't dedicated enough!" He spent nearly all of his adult life up until that point living below the poverty line; that's _plenty_ dedicated. It was pretty clear at that point it was unlikely to ever become sustainable and he decided enough was enough.


----------



## charlieclouser

Replicant said:


> I've heard the "If you aren't willing to live borderline like a hobo your whole life, then you aren't _really_ in it for the music!" rhetoric for years. In fact, when I was a teenager with head-in-the-clouds aspirations of being a professional metal guitarist, I would often say the same.
> 
> Put simply: That's horseshit.



Yup.


----------



## bbunker

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this thread is hilarious.

It started out with Replicant basically asking "Hey, guys - is it OK if I impose my ideas on careers and money in music on someone else?" and has come full circle to Replicant complaining because people are imposing their ideas on careers and money in music on him.

Bravo, VI-C. I salute you.


----------



## rJames

bbunker said:


> Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this thread is hilarious.
> 
> It started out with Replicant basically asking "Hey, guys - is it OK if I impose my ideas on careers and money in music on someone else?" and has come full circle to Replicant complaining because people are imposing their ideas on careers and money in music on him.
> 
> Bravo, VI-C. I salute you.


I don't know Replicant from Adam but I didn't get that from the original post at all. I must admit that I haven't read the entire thread.

I was going to respond to the OPs latest post with my story.

I wanted to be a musician when I grew up. I am naive and just expected that one of the bands that I joined would make it. I am a terrible lyricist but an ok composer. In those days that meant that I could put chords together with melodies.

"The" band never happened. That funny expression "like hearding cats" was my experience of working together.

At 24 I thought "what am I doing with a bunch of alcoholics at 2 in the morning?

Tough times ensued.

Created a career in commercial video production that led to creating a graphics company (just me).

Computers became what we all know, I started hobbying in music. VI Control came along. I met ppl (virtually). They helped me, mentored me , critiqued me gave me ideas. I sent some music to a guy. He put it on an album. It paid. I switched careers back to music when I was 50 yrs old.
Now anything I write is distributed worldwide by one of the few major global distributors.
I thought I'd be scoring films but I am not social...like at all. So this works for me. Like a dream.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

It comes down to a few simple things...

1) How badly you want success (whatever that means to an individual)

2) What you're willing to go through to get there

3) Luck (being in the the right place at the right time). This is a BIG one.

I WAS a guy living on a tour bus for six years earning nothing. I stopped that phase once I discovered the world of MIDI and composition, which is what got me to where I'm at today. It's still music, just a different form. The ironic thing is, I earn more now as a live/session drummer than I did touring years ago....and it's part time.


----------



## Replicant

bbunker said:


> Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this thread is hilarious.
> 
> It started out with Replicant basically asking "Hey, guys - is it OK if I impose my ideas on careers and money in music on someone else?" and has come full circle to Replicant complaining because people are imposing their ideas on careers and money in music on him.
> 
> Bravo, VI-C. I salute you.



Again, go back and actually read the OP for once.

I never once had any plans of "imposing" anything on anyone in this entire fucking thread. That was just a strawman erected by older guys who are offended at the idea that your chances at success are not inherently equal to your younger peers if you started late and that just because you don't want to eat beans on toast at age 36 doesn't mean you're "not dedicated" or some bullshit like that.

EDIT:

There has been a lot of talk about "how you define success" which is giving me flashbacks to my audition for college music studies, where I asked them what the rate of alumni who went to become professionals were and they told me "It depends how you define success" and gave me the example of "Working in a music store could be success in music."

Lol. I don't have to pay 20k and spend 2 - 4 years of study so that I can work in a music store.

Whenever this kind of conversation happens, we all know what the person talking about "success" means: making a comfortable living at it.

All the other 'it depends' reasonings are simply shifting from an objective metric into a more abstract one of subjective goals — because the subjective goals are easy to achieve and such, makes "success" seem much more likely.


----------



## bbunker

Now - I Didn't say that you were imposing anything on anyone within the thread. In the original (unedited) post, you're looking for cause to tell someone who is looking to get into film and game composing without any credits that they shouldn't, and state your case as to why you can tell this individual what you see as 'objective' truths about this all, right? All of this is based on your ideas about careers and money.

'Making a comfortable living' is your metric - you are defining what that comfortable living is, and have been in the process of defining what it means for you.

You even define Media composing as 'film/tv/game composing' with the eventual path to be 'one of the greats.' Which is your definition of the task, and the goal.

In this very post you give a little aside about how you lol at the idea that working in a music store could be success in music.

Literally this entire thread came about from you wanting to tell someone to not get into media composing at some age threshold because of your ideas about all of this. Of course - now the thread title is less absurd, and the original post is edited to make it somewhat less absurd, but be real now - that's what this thread is about, right?


----------



## Replicant

bbunker said:


> Literally this entire thread came about from you wanting to tell someone to not get into media composing at some age threshold because of your ideas about all of this. Of course - now the thread title is less absurd, and the original post is edited to make it somewhat less absurd, but be real now - that's what this thread is about, right?



Here is the OP, no edit was made except for the edit explaining why I changed the title.



Replicant said:


> Recently, I had this discussion with a friend of mine and wanted to see what you guys think: I was recently acquainted with this middle-aged guy (probably early 40s) who is a long-time musician, but told me he wanted to get into film and game music, despite having no film or game credits or experience.
> 
> This got me to thinking
> 
> *At what age, if any, is the aspiration to become a professional media composer no longer practical?
> *
> If you want to get into it, you're going to have to start on indie projects generally made by emerging directors and developers. Most of these people, from my observations, would be recent graduates or maybe 30 years old at max. At that age range, many aspiring composers already have a lengthy list of credits to their name.
> 
> I imagine it would be difficult for a guy in his 40s to "break into" the business when most aspiring pros half his age would likely have either more scoring experience, more common ground with up-and-coming directors, or both.
> 
> EDIT: I've changed the thread title as I feel the original may have caused some confusion.



You tell me where in here I say that intend to tell someone "you can't do it."

Stop misrepresenting the reason for creating the thread.


----------



## Rohann

Replicant said:


> Whenever this kind of conversation happens, we all know what the person talking about "success" means: making a comfortable living at it.
> 
> All the other 'it depends' reasonings are simply shifting from an objective metric into a more abstract one of subjective goals — because the subjective goals are easy to achieve and such, makes "success" seem much more likely.



Maybe we should take rJames' advice and speak for ourselves...

No, "success" doesn't always mean making a comfortable living in it. I _don't want _to make a comfortable living writing jingles for paper towel commercials (right now anyway). Quite often, when I hear people go on about "success", or write books about "success", it far too often means monetary success. Of course I'd love to be able to pursue music full time and always write whatever I want, but I know it's not realistic -- _maybe _it will happen, but I'm not in music because I'm counting on it. Success, for me and probably others, doesn't mean working in music at all costs and "making it big" while meeting a particular "objective metric" ("comfortable living" is hardly an objective metric, for that matter).


----------



## Replicant

Yeah, I'm done with this conversation. Thanks to Jay, Charlie, NoamL and the other guys (like the one on the first page) whose usernames are escaping me for sharing their insight. 

Anyway, maybe it's just bad luck, but in conversations like this I've had with musicians online, it's unfortunate that many of them are no longer tethered to the real world.

No, "making a comfortable living" at something isn't subjective; it's the difference between whether or not you're faced with the possibility of having your power shut off next month or not.

No, just because someone doesn't want to live just above the quality of life of a homeless person because they have to cut tons of corners 90% of other adults _don't_ just so they can fund their music endeavors doesn't mean they aren't serious about pursuing a music career. Some people can live like that and even enjoy it, but to assert that there is something wrong with the rest of the world who _don't_ is ludicrous. 

and as far as I can tell, from user testimony and examples, unless you have relevant experience to back it up, getting older in this business doesn't do you a whole lot of favours. 

But hey, success is subjective. If your aspiration is to be a career composer, but you wind up still working at a gas station after 30 years with only a handful shoestring-budget projects to your name, you can overcome this soul-crushing status by simply mentally lowering the bar.

To each his own: If telling oneself that they're a successful musician because they're happy with their band's latest unpaid performance is what helps them get to sleep after a hearty meal of raw Mr. Noodles, more power to them. 

Not me, though.


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

One can tell you're young though.


----------



## Rohann

Replicant said:


> No, "making a comfortable living" at something isn't subjective; it's the difference between whether or not you're faced with the possibility of having your power shut off next month or not.


Some people consider having multiple cars, a sizable house in a large city and a pool a "comfortable living". Others consider being able to meet the basics without worry comfortable. So yes, without more objective criteria, "comfortable" is subjective. Also, comfortable in London is different than comfortable in insert-random-city-in-Utah. I get your point though, not trying to be pedantic. Just illustrating a point.



> No, just because someone doesn't want to live just above the quality of life of a homeless person because they have to cut tons of corners 90% of other adults _don't_ just so they can fund their music endeavors doesn't mean they aren't serious about pursuing a music career. Some people can live like that and even enjoy it, but to assert that there is something wrong with the rest of the world who _don't_ is ludicrous.
> 
> and as far as I can tell, from user testimony and examples, unless you have relevant experience to back it up, getting older in this business doesn't do you a whole lot of favours.
> 
> But hey, success is subjective. If your aspiration is to be a career composer, but you wind up still working at a gas station after 30 years with only a handful shoestring-budget projects to your name, you can overcome this soul-crushing status by simply mentally lowering the bar.


I agree re: the first paragraph. Maybe my mistake is not following this thread from start to finish but the last paragraph reads quite presumptuously. While I don't think you're off -- it would indeed be soul crushing -- I do think confining everyone to this particular goal is unwarranted. I think this is why some participants in this thread (along with your last paragraph) are accusing you of imposing ideas, regardless of your intention. It's also not at all uncommon or somehow a life failure to reassess one's goals and priorities on a regular basis.

However, I think the question is a valid one to ask in order to realistically weigh one's _subjective_ expectations/definition of success. I realized for myself that I don't want to prioritize making a living in music at any cost over making music I love. One also doesn't have to be poor to continually make music on a semi-professional or competent level either, if a good number of bands are any indication.


----------



## AdamAlake

Replicant said:


> But hey, success is subjective. If your aspiration is to be a career composer, but you wind up still working at a gas station after 30 years with only a handful shoestring-budget projects to your name, you can overcome this soul-crushing status by simply mentally lowering the bar.



This is the entire reason why this thread exists summarized - a projection of your inner fear.


----------



## bbunker

Replicant said:


> Yeah, I'm done with this conversation. Thanks to Jay, Charlie, NoamL and the other guys (like the one on the first page) whose usernames are escaping me for sharing their insight.
> 
> Anyway, maybe it's just bad luck, but in conversations like this I've had with musicians online, it's unfortunate that many of them are no longer tethered to the real world.
> 
> No, "making a comfortable living" at something isn't subjective; it's the difference between whether or not you're faced with the possibility of having your power shut off next month or not.
> 
> No, just because someone doesn't want to live just above the quality of life of a homeless person because they have to cut tons of corners 90% of other adults _don't_ just so they can fund their music endeavors doesn't mean they aren't serious about pursuing a music career. Some people can live like that and even enjoy it, but to assert that there is something wrong with the rest of the world who _don't_ is ludicrous.
> 
> and as far as I can tell, from user testimony and examples, unless you have relevant experience to back it up, getting older in this business doesn't do you a whole lot of favours.
> 
> But hey, success is subjective. If your aspiration is to be a career composer, but you wind up still working at a gas station after 30 years with only a handful shoestring-budget projects to your name, you can overcome this soul-crushing status by simply mentally lowering the bar.
> 
> To each his own: If telling oneself that they're a successful musician because they're happy with their band's latest unpaid performance is what helps them get to sleep after a hearty meal of raw Mr. Noodles, more power to them.
> 
> Not me, though.



Ah. Because you don't agree with me, you don't think I've given you any insight. I wouldn't back away from the conversation just yet.

The point is that you have a fundamentalist perspective on this all. One is either a successful composer reaching the pinnacled heights, or is a failure after 30 years with a handful of shoestring-budget projects. That's just not how the world works. Because literally every variable in the equation can be tweaked a little bit.

Maybe instead of living in Burbank you live at the end of the Expo Line. Just like that, your idea of 'comfortable living' gets dropped in half. And that's just one thing.

Maybe you end up doing something else you enjoy too - like performing, teaching, arranging or orchestrating for other people, or doing some other job that you like. I think that something like teaching piano 2 days a week and playing on the weekends around a composing schedule just doesn't fit into your equation - but there are people who do that for a 'comfortable living.'

You of course leave out entire industries as well, like library music, production music, needle-drop or bespoke, music for other entities, advertising music, jingles (they do still exist) - not to mention the entire world of 'legit composition.'

You ask people to accept a fundamentalist, black-or-white perspective on success in music. That's the real disagreement. I see people who are happier down 9 to 5's in other industries and writing what they feel like. I see people who pick where they live to make the rent cheaper so they won't have to take a day gig. I see people who combine different income streams to make what they do work. I see people who are married to high-earning spouses who support their artistic endeavors. I feel like all these people are successes, because they find success for themselves. DO YOU? I'm guessing not.

Maybe you'd be happier moving off somewhere else and never writing a note again, making a comfortable living, so that you can tell yourself that you didn't bend in the wind, that you had a shot but wouldn't settle. Fine. But that's your own thing. Or maybe you think it's your thing, because you don't have the perspective of time? Only time will tell - there's your insight for you.


----------



## Eloy

The pursuit of ones happiness (music in this case) only ends when death arrives. Eloy


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Replicant said:


> Lol. I don't have to pay 20k and spend 2 - 4 years of study so that I can work in a music store.



Guess what? That 20K for school doesn't guarantee success either (which you personally measure as a monetary value). I have friends with University degrees that are working at gas stations and other minimum wage jobs....miserable as hell, too. Even if they do find work in their fields, they still won't be content because it's not their true passion. Heck, I even a have a close friend who works at a local music store (Long & McQuade) and he has a masters degree in music; but he continues to pound the pavement (successfully) to gain footing as a film composer.

Anyways, I totally see where you're coming from...but I hope you'll continue plugging away as a metal guitarist part-time at very least. It will keep you sane when times get tough.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Doesn't it all depend on what your ideas of success are? 

Surely you can send your stuff off to music libraries at any age and make a career out of it (if you're lucky and/or can churn out enough quality tracks quickly). 

Success doesn't have to mean "be the next Hans Zimmer". It could mean "make enough money to take the family to Disney land next year" or "cover the mortgage payments for a couple of months of the year"...


----------



## Desire Inspires

Success is boring.


----------



## Kyle Preston

Replicant said:


> Anyway, maybe it's just bad luck, but in conversations like this I've had with musicians online, it's unfortunate that many of them are no longer tethered to the real world.



Probably has more to do with you generalizing their opinions. Along with your assumptions about the 'real world' and how others don't want to live in it the way you do.



Replicant said:


> No, "making a comfortable living" at something isn't subjective; it's the difference between whether or not you're faced with the possibility of having your power shut off next month or not.



Again, you're defining *YOUR* own terms of success. You're also framing this as black and white. It's grey. It *is* subjective. As @Rohann already pointed out, a "comfortable" living in Seattle costs a lot more than a "comfortable" living in Atlanta. It requires more work to keep the lights on for me (in Seattle) than someone in Atlanta. How is this debatable?



Replicant said:


> But hey, success is subjective. If your aspiration is to be a career composer, but you wind up still working at a gas station after 30 years with only a handful shoestring-budget projects to your name, you can overcome this soul-crushing status by simply mentally lowering the bar.
> 
> To each his own: If telling oneself that they're a successful musician because they're happy with their band's latest unpaid performance is what helps them get to sleep after a hearty meal of raw Mr. Noodles, more power to them.
> 
> Not me, though.



Not you though, way to be. Good on you for perpetuating classism in society.


----------



## mc_deli

Success could be getting past fear of failure

It would be for me

Success would also be logging off


----------



## Replicant

Kyle Preston said:


> Probably has more to do with you generalizing their opinions. Along with your assumptions about the 'real world' and how others don't want to live in it the way you do.



In the real world, monetary compensation for the skills and services you provide _matter_. _There is no point in trying to make a career out of something_ if you aren't concerned with the monetary aspect. It's literally the definition between being a professional and a hobbyist.

Substituting subjective experiences in place of failure to achieve this is simply a coping mechanism, because if all it takes for you to be "successful" is be happy with your own music, why bother trying to make money anyway? People set out to "make a living" (career) at it precisely because this idea of success_ isn't enough_.

An artist with a popular Instagram account of their paintings who still works full time at Denny's isn't a "successful artist". They are simply a hobbyist with a popular Instagram account.



Kyle Preston said:


> Again, you're defining *YOUR* own terms of success. You're also framing this as black and white. It's grey. It *is* subjective. As @Rohann already pointed out, a "comfortable" living in Seattle costs a lot more than a "comfortable" living in Atlanta. It requires more work to keep the lights on for me (in Seattle) than someone in Atlanta. How is this debatable?



But the end result is the same — in either case, a musician who is successful in the music/film/tv/etc industries would still be able to pay all their bills without fear.

You're right; it would be tougher in one city vs another, but that's why I brought us here: To discuss varying difficulties according to particular variables.



Kyle Preston said:


> Not you though, way to be. Good on you for perpetuating classism in society.



As a wise (wo)man once said, "Money can't by happiness, but I'd rather cry in a mansion".


----------



## Rohann

Replicant said:


> Substituting subjective experiences in place of failure to achieve this is simply a coping mechanism, because if all it takes for you to be "successful" is be happy with your own music, why bother trying to make money anyway? People set out to "make a living" (career) at it precisely because this idea of success_ isn't enough_.


You still seem to be stuck in a relatively black and white mindset -- either "make enough money _purely _from composing" or "don't make money at all and eat dry noodles in an LA sewer". You do realize _most_ composers fall in between these categories, right? Many highly successful composers (aside maybe from Hollywood A-listers) are also running money-generating businesses or jobs on the side (i.e. running Spitfire or other VI companies, teaching on their instrument, working as a session musician, working in an unrelated professional field, or accomplishing a conglomeration of income-generating activities as some have described here). These aren't "failed old guys convincing themselves that their gas station job is success", these are people like Christian Henson, Jeremy Soule (creative director for Roland Cloud), Martin Stig Andersen (sound designer) etc. Maybe the top tier of those mentioned here make enough just doing composition, but as even Jay has mentioned -- _many _"successful" composers don't rely on composition as their sole, "comfortable" income.

I think I understand your initial point here (that _most _people referring to "making it" aren't talking about working at A&W and simply liking their music), but I'm not sure why this variation on "success" is still a point of contention.

If your personal definition of "making it" is being able to rely _solely _on one's composition income, then yes, it's probably pretty hard to get there, even starting at a young age, and probably more so when starting at age 60. Does this make composers who haven't achieved this "unsuccessful", or "failures"?


----------



## Rohann

mc_deli said:


> Success would also be logging off


Ahaha isn't that the truth.

Success, for me, would be not getting roped into forum conversations that don't help me get better at composition, although mulling through some of these thoughts do help me create my own mental framework for my goals.


----------



## bbunker

Replicant said:


> because if all it takes for you to be "successful" is be happy with your own music, why bother trying to make money anyway? People set out to "make a living" (career) at it precisely because this idea of success_ isn't enough_.



Seriously - this is hilarious. I'm pretty sure you're just putting it out there for comedy now. You do stand-up, right? Or, you have fantastically limited imagination. You can't imagine why someone would bother trying to make money doing something unless they wanted to make all of their money from it? Nope - I have that wrong. You book bands into nightclubs, and that's your pitch to get them to play for free. Good stuff. I'll just call up AirBNB and tell them to call off their service: unless someone was going to be a hotel all the time, why would they want to make money? Those fools!



Replicant said:


> You're right; it would be tougher in one city vs another, but that's why I brought us here: To discuss varying difficulties according to particular variables.



Even funnier. All this time the REAL magnanimous reason for posting this thread (now titled: At What Age Does "Making It" Become Unrealistic?) not to justify a little ageism on the side, but to have a reasoned discussion of literally every variable that you've glossed over in everyone else's replies to you. You really can't make this up.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Replicant said:


> In the real world, monetary compensation for the skills and services you provide _matter_. _There is no point in trying to make a career out of something_ if you aren't concerned with the monetary aspect. It's literally the definition between being a professional and a hobbyist.
> 
> Substituting subjective experiences in place of failure to achieve this is simply a coping mechanism, because if all it takes for you to be "successful" is be happy with your own music, why bother trying to make money anyway? People set out to "make a living" (career) at it precisely because this idea of success_ isn't enough_.
> 
> An artist with a popular Instagram account of their paintings who still works full time at Denny's isn't a "successful artist". They are simply a hobbyist with a popular Instagram account.



LOL! You are absolutely stuck in this mindset that success=money. I wonder if you work in the oil industry?  
Van Gogh lived a life of poverty, and only sold one painting during his lifetime...but now his work is worth millions. However, his passion was art and and lived and breathed it every day....just like the "hobbyist with an Instagram account". 

You are far more worried about a materialistic life than one of contentment. I get your point, but IMO the artistic types (at heart) typically don't look at life from that perspective. Sounds like you are more cut out for the business world.


----------



## Replicant

bbunker said:


> Seriously - this is hilarious. I'm pretty sure you're just putting it out there for comedy now. You do stand-up, right? Or, you have fantastically limited imagination. You can't imagine why someone would bother trying to make money doing something unless they wanted to make all of their money from it? Nope - I have that wrong. You book bands into nightclubs, and that's your pitch to get them to play for free. Good stuff. I'll just call up AirBNB and tell them to call off their service: unless someone was going to be a hotel all the time, why would they want to make money? Those fools!
> 
> 
> 
> Even funnier. All this time the REAL magnanimous reason for posting this thread (now titled: At What Age Does "Making It" Become Unrealistic?) not to justify a little ageism on the side, but to have a reasoned discussion of literally every variable that you've glossed over in everyone else's replies to you. You really can't make this up.





Wolfie2112 said:


> LOL! You are absolutely stuck in this mindset that success=money. I wonder if you work in the oil industry?
> Van Gogh lived a life of poverty, and only sold one painting during his lifetime...but now his work is worth millions. However, his passion was art and and lived and breathed it every day....just like the "hobbyist with an Instagram account".
> 
> You are far more worried about a materialistic life than one of contentment. I get your point, but IMO the artistic types (at heart) typically don't look at life from that perspective. Sounds like you are more cut out for the business world.



A guy who can't even properly read the OP finding something "funny" is what's truly funny. My personal feelings and decisions about the business-aspect goals I've set for myself and your disagreement with them are simply a diversion from a point I suspect you're scared may be true and applicable to yourself.

I met a middle-aged person who has no experience, no orchestral or hybrid style experience who wants to pursue a career in film or game scoring with the goal of quitting their day job.

I can't help but think that ship may have sailed on them, and based on conversations here, it may very well have. In five years, if I see them again and they've made no progress on that goal then, am I to tell them "Oh, don't worry, some people on a forum assured me that you're still a successful composer as long as you've met other, intangible goals you set for yourself!"?

Grow up. Success _in a business_ is measured by real-world, tangible achievements that yield real rewards and not goalposts set in your mind that only you can see. A "lawyer" who has a law degree, and gives legal advice, but no one pays him and he has to work at Tip Top Tailors during the day wouldn't be having a very successful career in law, would he? There is _nothing wrong_ with doing something for self-satisfaction, but that's not what this person had in mind and it is not what I'm talking about.

_By this_, I am a more successful musician than many people I grew up with. Charlie Clouser is a more successful composer than I, and Hans Zimmer has us all beat. With each tier you see bigger movies, more recognition and likely demand as well for their work, and yes...increased monetary compensation, no doubt — if it didn't, they'd probably be getting screwed.


----------



## bbunker

This is very simple. The idea that you are somehow responsible for someone else, especially a grown-a** man not progressing towards a goal that you've decided on for them because you didn't specifically say "well, you're too old to succeed," and that this is the reason why you absolutely must establish some bizarre threshold is well beyond the bounds of reason.

I'll tell you what I would tell that person. I'd be frank about the difficulties involved. I'd suggest all of the dozens of ways that people make some kind of success for themselves - and ask if he's comfortable with any of those. If he still feels committed to his plan, I'd wish him well and all the success in the future, and try to help him out, especially if it was a friend.

Just to point out the absurdity of this entire thread: would you also be liable if you didn't tell a female composer that she was too female to have a realistic chance of success? The statistics are much worse in the industry for women for a number of disheartening reasons; is that similarly your duty, to discourage female composers because it isn't realistic in your view?


----------



## Nick Batzdorf

Ever heard anyone say "I'm not dead yet?"

It's probably an old Jewish expression, I don't know.


----------



## Replicant

bbunker said:


> This is very simple. The idea that you are somehow responsible for someone else, especially a grown-a** man not progressing towards a goal that you've decided on for them because you didn't specifically say "well, you're too old to succeed," and that this is the reason why you absolutely must establish some bizarre threshold is well beyond the bounds of reason.



Lol again, this strawmanning reveals you have taken the premise of the thread (that a cold start in the industry after a certain age with the goal of making a living becomes unrealistic) personally.

There is no "responsibility for someone else" crap you keep pratting on about; it was purely meant for conversation, contemplation and experience sharing. There is no ulterior motive and your obsessive "reading into" simple posts exposes an obvious _desire for there to be one_ just makes you look insecure and worried about being branded "old".

Several people have given arguments for there being a limit and some have argued that the age of the internet transcends any limit, some share stats, etc.

You just provide the thread with a ton of salt.



Nick Batzdorf said:


> Ever heard anyone say "I'm not dead yet?"



Generally my first words in the morning.


----------



## Rohann

Round and round we go! None of us are going to make it at this rate.


----------



## Puzzlefactory

Anyone can make it to whatever level if they have the will and determination, talent and luck. 

Anyone could write a successful EDM track at whatever age, but then they have to consider doing the slew of 3am DJ gigs that come with "making it" as a dance music producer. 

Obviously a kid of 20 is going to be much more inclined to do this (in general) than a man/woman in their 40's. 

I'm sure there's parallel scenarios to be made with music for media too...


----------



## AdamAlake

Replicant said:


> A guy who can't even properly read the OP finding something "funny" is what's truly funny. My personal feelings and decisions about the business-aspect goals I've set for myself and your disagreement with them are simply a diversion from a point I suspect you're scared may be true and applicable to yourself.
> 
> I met a middle-aged person who has no experience, no orchestral or hybrid style experience who wants to pursue a career in film or game scoring with the goal of quitting their day job.



You keep referring back to the (now edited) OP despite the conversation evolving past - can you then explain the purpose for its creation? You asked if the guy can still make it, people said he can, that does not satisfy you. So, if people said that he has no chance, what would change, what would you exactly do with that information?

All it seems that you desire, is to have your initial assumptions confirmed, but what then? What productive goal would you use that information for?



Replicant said:


> Grow up. Success _in a business_ is measured by real-world, tangible achievements that yield real rewards and not goalposts set in your mind that only you can see.



You are telling posters here to grow up, when you are younger than most of them? Funny.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

If someone spends a chunk of their time arguing with others about relatively insignificant minutiae of life just to prove their worth, can they still be successful?


----------



## cmillar

One thing that's nice about having many years of freelance experience in the music world (performing, composing, arranging, teaching) is that one gets to meet people from all walks of life... with different viewpoints, artistic asthetics, and reasons for being an artist/musician.

My views here are from years of being a commercially oriented performer (trombone player in bands, wedding bands, jingles (when live musicians were used!), symphonic playing, pit bands, funk bands, Latin bands, etc. etc.) and as a composer for various media projects (film, video, multi-media) and composing for 'classical' groups, jazz bands, rock bands, show arranging, figure skating, equestrian riders, as well as theme music for live events.

(One thing that's not so good is sometimes wondering how you'll make the rent! But, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, and I'm a musician/composer/artist because it feeds my soul and keeps me breathing...and there's no use looking at the dark side of life all the time because I get to play and work with people that help bring joy to many others lives through live performance and artistic collaboration in film or multi-media projects....I like recording/producing/composing/playing with software libraries, etc., but there is more to music and art than sitting in front of a computer trying to replicate live instruments.

So... how does one 'lose work'...or not get hired?

Here are some real life things I've seen, have first-hand knowledge about, and have witnessed over the years:

You might not get hired because: (these pertain to all aspects of the music business)

- you're not 'white'
- you're not 'black' (some people think only people of Afro descent have rhythm)
- you're not 'gay' (there are some areas of the live performing world where this is a given)
- you're not 'straight'
- you're not 'Jewish'
- you're not 'British' 
- you're not 'Canadian'
- you don't have an exotic enough name
- you're not 'Chinese'
- you don't have any tattoes
- you have too many tattoes
- you have a beard (if a man...that actually happened to me once upon a time for a band!)
- you don't have a 'man-bun'
- you have a 'man-bun'
- you didn't go to the 'right school' and had the 'wrong' teacher
- you don't play the 'right' brand of musical instruments that's in vogue
- you eat meat
- you don't drink enough alcohol
- you drink too much alcohol
- you're too much of a stoner
- you're not really into getting stoned
- you have kids at home
- you want to have kids
- you're married
- you're not married

Etc., etc.....what a fu#$%& up world we live in, right?

This is what we're all up against. 

The best thing that artists with some kind of soul and empathy can do is to NEVER GIVE UP believing in social change for the betterment of all...and to use our artistic skills and insights for serving the human good.

Being 'successful' is only a small part of the picture... let's not lose sight of the important things in life.


----------



## C.R. Rivera

"Being 'successful' is only a small part of the picture... let's not lose sight of the important things in life."

After 171 posts on this thread, I was thinking of starting one called "At what age do you realize that you are not ever going to make it and decide instead to just have fun and learn something of value for the heck of it." 

I volunteer first--I am in my sixties, a retired naval officer, a semi-retired college/university professor, have severe arthritis in my hands, AND who knows I am not going to ever "make" it. However, I love music, even though I cannot tuna fish, I love the intellectual challenge of working with the computers, software, and peripherals to make something I consider nice sounding, if not always to others. I love learning from people on this forum, learning about sounds, software, and seeing how others can achieve things that I will never achieve.

At my age, I am blessed to be alive, walking, and somewhat coherent. So, should I just quit? Heck no! As long as I please myself, don't violate or bother others.

Yes, I quite agree with cmillar:
Being 'successful' is only a small part of the picture... let's not lose sight of the important things in life.

Very respectfully,

Carlos


----------



## kurtvanzo

I really like hearing those stories of people that "made it" in their 50's, 60's, and 70's. As people are living longer I expect to hear more 80's, 90's, and beyond do amazing things, proving that age and limits are mainly in the mind. There is so much to learn and grow from, music seems the perfect combination of creative and technical skill combine with patience and persistence. Many successful people will tell you the last two are the most important. Once they perfect brainwave scanning and I can get the music in my head down without my limited fingers, even physical limitations will become a thing of the past. I look forward to seeing what I can do at 100+.


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## Ned Bouhalassa

FWIW, my career only really started to take off when I was in my early 40s.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Replicant said:


> Grow up. Success _in a business_ is measured by real-world, tangible achievements that yield real rewards and not goalposts set in your mind that only you can see.



I'm a few years from 50, now mortgage free (thanks in part to my musical income which I'm extremely fortunate and grateful), and living a very content life (and believe me, it got quite bumpy). I never got into music to earn money, but thankfully years of persistance are paying off. However, the real success is (and always has been) personal musical milestones set in my mind; I never did this for the money or status quo, and would do it all over again. And for that reason, I will never grow up  As a drummer, I have had the pleasure of playing in bands that have toured and supported Stratovarius, Sonata Arctica, Doobie Brothers, Prism, and many others. To me, that is success, and more than I can say for a lot of colleagues. 

As long as you're breathing and have a pulse...keep going. Tell your friend to keep going, but go 150% and set a long term goal. In his case (if I recall), it was to quit his day job after 5 years. Just tell him to be aware that it may not work out exactly as he envisions and to tweak the plan as he goes. If after 5 years he's still without a single musical job, then he has to see what the next steps are and where he could have done better. But if he wants it bad enough, he'll find the path. At least one day he can look back and feel satisfied that he gave it a good run. But you seem quite young, don't fall into the trap of materialism....you'll understand later on


----------



## Rohann

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> If someone spends a chunk of their time arguing with others about relatively insignificant minutiae of life just to prove their worth, can they still be successful?


This strategy has been terribly unsuccessful for me so far.
----------------
I think the crux of the issue here is that yes, attempting to be the next Williams or Zimmer or Elfman when _starting_ at an older age will be quite difficult (not impossible, but more difficult than if one starts at a younger age, most likely). However, prior music experience for people like Charlie, Reznor, JunkieXL, etc seemed to aid them in bringing something interesting to the table. I don't think this is something being contested.

However, does setting a lofty goal and not making it make one a failure as a composer or person, or make one's life any less meaningful or rewarding? Is reassessing goals "out of bounds" in this regard? The answer should be obvious.


----------



## Replicant

AdamAlake said:


> You keep referring back to the (now edited) OP despite the conversation evolving past - can you then explain the purpose for its creation? You asked if the guy can still make it, people said he can, that does not satisfy you. So, if people said that he has no chance, what would change, what would you exactly do with that information?
> 
> All it seems that you desire, is to have your initial assumptions confirmed, but what then? What productive goal would you use that information for?
> 
> 
> 
> You are telling posters here to grow up, when you are younger than most of them? Funny.



Yeah, well it was all worth it since I've rather enjoyed all the responses on this page specifically like what C.R. Rivera and CMillar posted, which are the kinds of posts I was expecting to get when I started this thread instead of long, off-topic discussions that boil down to me arguing with people that "If you set out to achieve X, Y is not a substitute for failing to achieve X."


----------



## AdamAlake

Replicant said:


> Yeah, well it was all worth it since I've rather enjoyed all the responses on this page specifically like what C.R. Rivera and CMillar posted, which are the kinds of posts I was expecting to get when I started this thread instead of long, off-topic discussions that boil down to me arguing with people that "If you set out to achieve X, Y is not a substitute for failing to achieve X."



That may very well be, but what purpose do they serve to you?


----------



## bbunker

Replicant said:


> Yeah, well it was all worth it since I've rather enjoyed all the responses on this page specifically like what C.R. Rivera and CMillar posted, which are the kinds of posts I was expecting to get when I started this thread instead of long, off-topic discussions that boil down to me arguing with people that "If you set out to achieve X, Y is not a substitute for failing to achieve X."



"I really liked the posts that confirmed what I thought, and not the ones that disagreed with me. Especially when its about the premises of my ideas, which I'm going to call 'off-topic.'"


----------



## givemenoughrope

Isn't it unrealistic at any age? Just do it.


----------



## Replicant

Rohann said:


> However, does setting a lofty goal and not making it make one a failure as a composer or person, or make one's life any less meaningful or rewarding? Is reassessing goals "out of bounds" in this regard? The answer should be obvious.



I would agree with that.



bbunker said:


> "I really liked the posts that confirmed what I thought, and not the ones that disagreed with me. Especially when its about the premises of my ideas, which I'm going to call 'off-topic.'"



Okay pal, we get it: You're offended at the premise of the thread possibly labeling you an "old" guy. Guess what? It happens to us all and that's why I feel the discussion of what is a reasonable expectation of one's career (specifically beginning it) as they age in an industry known for ageism is an absolutely relevant discussion.

Alternative ideas of "success" obviously unrelated to the OP, my disagreement with lifestyle choices for the sake of musical pursuits or your wild accusations of me being some scheming manipulator are off topic _because they're off topic. 
_
Never wanted to use the ignore feature here, but it's better this way.


----------



## rJames

Ned Bouhalassa said:


> If someone spends a chunk of their time arguing with others about relatively insignificant minutiae of life just to prove their worth, can they still be successful?


If a tree falls in the forest, does a bear shit in the woods? (I'm just agreeing with you Ned although it may not sound like it)


----------



## rJames

givemenoughrope said:


> Isn't it unrealistic at any age?


THIS! (sorry I deleted part of your post)


----------



## Desire Inspires

Wolfie2112 said:


> Van Gogh lived a life of poverty, and only sold one painting during his lifetime...but now his work is worth millions. However, his passion was art and and lived and breathed it every day....just like the "hobbyist with an Instagram account".



Good to know.


----------



## ctsai89

If you're a performer and you're past 21 I'd say it's impossible. Composer however, I doubt there is an age limit on when making it becomes impossible. It'll all depend on the music.


----------



## storyteller

Replicant said:


> \thread... Yeah, I'm done with this conversation... it's unfortunate that many of them are no longer tethered to the real world... No... No, just because... and as far as I can tell, from user testimony and examples, unless you have relevant experience to back it up, getting older in this business doesn't do you a whole lot of favours... But hey, success is subjective... To each his own... Not me, though...Okay pal, we get it: You're offended... Alternative ideas of "success" obviously unrelated to the OP, my disagreement with lifestyle choices...



@Replicant, I only pulled these from a couple of your posts. I really get where you are coming from, so please take what I am about to say as constructive... I haven't seen anyone in this thread say anything that would warrant the defensiveness in the replies you have recently put up. It isn't about "right" or "wrong"... which, I suspect is part of the pressure point here. The beauty of VIC is that you receive a wealth of insight from people who are all over the map with life decisions and career successes - literally the best in Hollywood, to the people thinking about learning only to play kazoo. But one thing that nearly everyone has said in one form or another in their posts, is that "success" is not limited to your definition. In fact, it isn't a cop-out or a justification for picking up music at 8 or 88 years old. But what it is, is a wisdom beyond what you have presently been able to accept in the replies thus far... and that (generally speaking) IS an age thing.

I'm not saying this to pick on you or challenge your opinions. Far from it. In many ways, I was you - which is why I want to contribute another post to this thread. (Which, please don't feel obligated to reply to it.) Right now, I'm in my mid-thirties. Speaking only for me, after a few frustrating setbacks in the business side of the music world early on, I went the "safe" and "financially secure" direction in my twenties, which caused music to eventually become only a rainy-day trip down memory lane when I sat at the keyboard in my home studio. But one of the most important things I discovered - and I think is what most here have discovered and are trying to communicate in their posts - is that a life without chasing passion and having a complete disregard of what the world thinks of you, is the most important speed bump of self-acceptance and growth an individual can face in life.

I didn't quite know what truly caused that fire to spark early on in my life. I had a wife, child, a white picket fence (literally), a mortgage on a house way too large for any family, two brand new cars, and was financially building a future with a rarely-used, picture-perfect home studio. My wife did not have to work at all. I advanced very quickly during those "career years." I had achieved the "American Dream" well before my friends had received their first promotions at work. I gave everything I had to my family and the happiness of others. I assumed that the fire inside could be filled with material possessions, the Love of family, and giving everything I had to help others. But there was a constant hole... difficult to understand at first. It would take quite a winding-twisting-fate-driven road to wind up with the realization that no amount of materiality or circumstances in life can give a person true joy. And sometimes, it takes a few major wake-up calls to show you the humility it takes to become the true definition as "whole" as a person, and not be the half-person/zombie the world makes you believe is the path "the wise" will follow. It's a lie. Truly. The wisest posts you have received have been those that have acknowledged your fears and tried to show you a truth beyond the near-sightedness the world causes. It is wiser to be with nothing in order to learn that you already have everything, than to experience everything and realize you have nothing.

But the moral of the story is that if a person has not accepted that happiness deserves priority numero uno (and I must say that it goes hand in hand with being the reflection of your highest understanding of your highest self) , that person is voluntarily living in a prison of his/her own making. You posted a quote about a girl saying she'd rather cry in a mansion than cry in poverty. I'd ask, why does a person have to cry? You have everything you need to be happy. And once you find _true_ joy and happiness, the world builds around you... which isn't the way the world has taught you.


----------



## cmillar

storyteller said:


> It is wiser to be with nothing in order to learn that you already have everything, .....



Great post, and I just quote a part of what you said ....as it's applicable to everyone here on the forum who's in search of the next sound library that might bring inspiration, inner peace, happiness, success, and fame.

I've been very guilty of buying software, only to have it collect digital dust once I realize that it hasn't made me any happier or made my life better.

And..._a quote from ctsai89:_ ["If you're a performer and you're past 21 I'd say it's impossible. Composer however, I doubt there is an age limit on when making it becomes impossible. It'll all depend on the music."]

I'm going to sound real 'old school' and 'geezer-like' here, but most of the world's happiest, succesful, most 'together' people I respect are those old rock stars who are still DOING IT....they're still rocking.

Or in the other genres....they're playing classical music, they're jamming, they're composing 'new music'.

Look at all the amazing jazz artists.....Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, etc.!!!!!

Any jazz player or composer will laugh at the notion of not 'doing what they do'. Whether they have a day job or not doesn't matter to their fame or stature. They have something to say as artists, and nothing will stop them.

Age? to a jazz musician? That's just something to look forward to, because you keep learning and growing.

And, the best film composers in history have all been pretty much just starting to hit their stride in their 40's or even later.

I just really disagree with the idea of being an instrumentalist not being able to 'make it' after 21.

Really?

The best instrumentalists keep getting better (as long as they're in good health.) 

A person can be a child prodigy, and can memorize everything Beethoven wrote and go and play concerts around the world.

But....is that 'making it?' I suggest that's only fulfilling some messed up notion that 'younger is better'....usually foisted upon the public by some people who just want to make a profit off of the hard work and labour of some other humans; so they can use the youthful face to sell a product, or to encourage other students to attend a famous music conservatory that the child prodigy may have attended in order to keep the cycle going.

People in their 20's as the epitomy of the music world?

That's totally laughable! For example, look at Adele. She was all but finished at age 22 or so, due to not being able to really sing and understand how to breath. Her throat was shot. But she came back....thanks to much older, experienced doctors and artists who basically told her 'what's up' if she wants a long career as a singer (which is just another form of an instrument....it's her 'instrument')

Now, she'll take care of herself, understand that singing is an art and a craft and has to nourished and worked on, and hopefully she'll have a nice long career of writing and singing songs that have commercial appeal. 

She's lucky she made it. Many others have 'flamed out' by her age.

Really? There aren't any great instrumentalists or singers over the age of 21? 

There's no 'age limit' on human artistry. Most great singers and instrumentalists just keep progressing and working on their art. 

ie: the Rolling Stones, Earth Wind and Fire, Sting, Madonna, Hans Zimmer (who'd out their playing live as well!), Peter Gabriel, Esa Peka Solonon, Hillary Hahn, Joshua Bell, ......and countless thousands of others over the age of 21.

It was John Lennon who once said "never trust anyone over 30".

Now, he'd probably be saying "never trust anyone under 30"! 

His generation were the original pop stars and rockers, and they're all much older and wiser now.

We all think we know everything when we're in our 20's....I was guilty of that too as much as anyone!

I'm glad I play trombone, because all my teachers have been much older, much better, real mature artists, and most important of all....they all still have the FIRE in their belly and are still DOING IT.


----------



## chapbot

ctsai89 said:


> If you're a performer and you're past 21 I'd say it's impossible. Composer however, I doubt there is an age limit on when making it becomes impossible. It'll all depend on the music.


I had a friend who was on American Idol at age 29, got a record deal and had a nice career. There are also many YouTubers who are making a good living and are older.


----------



## AdamAlake

Replicant said:


> I would agree with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay pal, we get it: You're offended at the premise of the thread possibly labeling you an "old" guy. Guess what? It happens to us all and that's why I feel the discussion of what is a reasonable expectation of one's career (specifically beginning it) as they age in an industry known for ageism is an absolutely relevant discussion.
> 
> Alternative ideas of "success" obviously unrelated to the OP, my disagreement with lifestyle choices for the sake of musical pursuits or your wild accusations of me being some scheming manipulator are off topic _because they're off topic.
> _
> Never wanted to use the ignore feature here, but it's better this way.



Oky pal, we get it : You're offended at the premise of someone not confirming your biases. Keep blocking those that disagree with you, it is a great way to truly delve into the world you imagine reality to be.


----------



## ctsai89

Ok I'm just kidding actually but I meant to say it would be extremely difficult to make it as a classical musician performer after the first half of 20's. but there's no denying it's still possible. But by the time you're 22 and haven't won a single competition you're less likely going to be able to audition and get into to the top conservatories in which would help your resume in order for you to get into playing in professional orchestras at big cities (that's the "making it" as im talking about which is often very much sought for, but I'm not saying that there aren't other forms of "making it"). Still possible but with all the competition out there it's very difficult.


----------



## agarner32

ctsai89 said:


> If you're a performer and you're past 21 I'd say it's impossible. Composer however, I doubt there is an age limit on when making it becomes impossible. It'll all depend on the music.


Impossible to do what? There are tons of performers way over the age of 21 who started late and have had careers and some very big.


----------



## jcrosby

I didn't start until I was 38. I work mostly in libraries, but in the past 6 years I've accrued several thousand unique TV episodes spanning a couple hundred shows, some shows running as much as 90 episodes (and counting...) It's my only source of income, no second job... My main piece of advice is don't put your eggs in one basket; don't set your goals specifically on "being a film composer". How ever you can earn a living composing is a win and limiting your scope or thinking any job (that pays) is below you is a sure fire way to fail at this...


----------



## Puzzlefactory

jcrosby said:


> I didn't start until I was 38. I work mostly in libraries, but in the past 6 years I've accrued several thousand unique TV episodes spanning a couple hundred shows, some shows running as much as 90 episodes (and counting...) It's my only source of income, no second job... My main piece of advice is don't put your eggs in one basket; don't set your goals specifically on "being a film composer". How ever you can earn a living composing is a win and limiting your scope or thinking any job (that pays) is below you is a sure fire way to fail at this...




Haha, you've just become my role model.


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## Jeremy Spencer

Storyteller, excellent post! It was almost like I was reading my own experience there. I know that feeling you mentioned, that feeling of emptiness and like you're missing out on something huge....even though you think you have everything a person could possibly want; and believe me, no amount of money can change it. My story takes a somewhat dramatic turn, but I made the change and have been truly happy ever since (I'll send you a PM!). I have now learned to live a much simpler life, but full of enrichment...and that's when the real musical success took flight. I now see so many people in that old scenario, yet they are in a comfort/security zone and are scared to death to take the steps that they know are the only way to "get out". Anyways, didn't mean to derail this, but it's all part of the success scenario


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## D Halgren

storyteller said:


> @Replicant, I only pulled these from a couple of your posts. I really get where you are coming from, so please take what I am about to say as constructive... I haven't seen anyone in this thread say anything that would warrant the defensiveness in the replies you have recently put up. It isn't about "right" or "wrong"... which, I suspect is part of the pressure point here. The beauty of VIC is that you receive a wealth of insight from people who are all over the map with life decisions and career successes - literally the best in Hollywood, to the people thinking about learning only to play kazoo. But one thing that nearly everyone has said in one form or another in their posts, is that "success" is not limited to your definition. In fact, it isn't a cop-out or a justification for picking up music at 8 or 88 years old. But what it is, is a wisdom beyond what you have presently been able to accept in the replies thus far... and that (generally speaking) IS an age thing.
> 
> I'm not saying this to pick on you or challenge your opinions. Far from it. In many ways, I was you - which is why I want to contribute another post to this thread. (Which, please don't feel obligated to reply to it.) Right now, I'm in my mid-thirties. Speaking only for me, after a few frustrating setbacks in the business side of the music world early on, I went the "safe" and "financially secure" direction in my twenties, which caused music to eventually become only a rainy-day trip down memory lane when I sat at the keyboard in my home studio. But one of the most important things I discovered - and I think is what most here have discovered and are trying to communicate in their posts - is that a life without chasing passion and having a complete disregard of what the world thinks of you, is the most important speed bump of self-acceptance and growth an individual can face in life.
> 
> I didn't quite know what truly caused that fire to spark early on in my life. I had a wife, child, a white picket fence (literally), a mortgage on a house way too large for any family, two brand new cars, and was financially building a future with a rarely-used, picture-perfect home studio. My wife did not have to work at all. I advanced very quickly during those "career years." I had achieved the "American Dream" well before my friends had received their first promotions at work. I gave everything I had to my family and the happiness of others. I assumed that the fire inside could be filled with material possessions, the Love of family, and giving everything I had to help others. But there was a constant hole... difficult to understand at first. It would take quite a winding-twisting-fate-driven road to wind up with the realization that no amount of materiality or circumstances in life can give a person true joy. And sometimes, it takes a few major wake-up calls to show you the humility it takes to become the true definition as "whole" as a person, and not be the half-person/zombie the world makes you believe is the path "the wise" will follow. It's a lie. Truly. The wisest posts you have received have been those that have acknowledged your fears and tried to show you a truth beyond the near-sightedness the world causes. It is wiser to be with nothing in order to learn that you already have everything, than to experience everything and realize you have nothing.
> 
> But the moral of the story is that if a person has not accepted that happiness deserves priority numero uno (and I must say that it goes hand in hand with being the reflection of your highest understanding of your highest self) , that person is voluntarily living in a prison of his/her own making. You posted a quote about a girl saying she'd rather cry in a mansion than cry in poverty. I'd ask, why does a person have to cry? You have everything you need to be happy. And once you find _true_ joy and happiness, the world builds around you... which isn't the way the world has taught you.



Best post in this thread!


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## Arviwan

Hi everyone, interesting conversation !
I could tell you my story, but it wouldn't add anything new ...
I'm just gonna say i'll be 45 in a few weeks and i'm currently scoring my 2 first full length films.
I decided to go into media music less than 18 month ago, and ... here i am ! 
Now, future will tell if i can make a (comfortable) living out of it. But anyways, i don't intend to quit teaching or playing live gigs (nor other things i'm doing) 'cause the privilege of being this age is : now i know that what makes me happy is doing different things along the week !
I have a question concerning things i've read in this thread :
i'm french, and we use the expression "musique à l'image" ("music to picture") to talk about any kind of music asking to follow what's on the screen, be it short/long film (TV or cinema), commercials, cartoons/animation, documentary, video games ...
I thought the english equivalent was "media music" or "multimedia music", but someone wrote here that "media music" is different from "film/TV/game" ... so what is the proper way to say it ? and what are the differences ?
Thanks


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## charlieclouser

Arviwan said:


> I thought the english equivalent was "media music" or "multimedia music", but someone wrote here that "media music" is different from "film/TV/game" ... so what is the proper way to say it ? and what are the differences ?
> Thanks



I think that here in the USA there is a tendency to divide up "musique a la image" into two (or more?) categories:

- "Scoring for / to picture" = this would be music composed in sync to picture, that is matched and married to the picture for which it was composed. Film scores, dramatic television scores, maybe even the scores that accompany "cut scenes" in video games, where the composer can watch the final edit of the scene and match the music to it.

- "Music for media" = this would be music that was composed *for* picture, but not necessarily *to* picture. So, library music, production music, video game scores, etc. Basically anything that was done without looking at the picture that it would eventually be married with.

Obviously there is a lot of overlap between these categories, and maybe there's even more sub-divisions. But that's how I tend to hear a lot of people describing this stuff. So, yeah - when I hear "music for media" I often think that it wasn't composed in sync with picture, but when I hear "film scoring" or "scoring for tv" or "scoring to picture" then I think of timecode numbers and so forth.


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## Ashermusic

charlieclouser said:


> I think that here in the USA there is a tendency to divide up "musique a la image" into two (or more?) categories:
> 
> - "Scoring for / to picture" = this would be music composed in sync to picture, that is matched and married to the picture for which it was composed. Film scores, dramatic television scores, maybe even the scores that accompany "cut scenes" in video games, where the composer can watch the final edit of the scene and match the music to it.
> 
> - "Music for media" = this would be music that was composed *for* picture, but not necessarily *to* picture. So, library music, production music, video game scores, etc. Basically anything that was done without looking at the picture that it would eventually be married with.
> 
> Obviously there is a lot of overlap between these categories, and maybe there's even more sub-divisions. But that's how I tend to hear a lot of people describing this stuff. So, yeah - when I hear "music for media" I often think that it wasn't composed in sync with picture, but when I hear "film scoring" or "scoring for tv" or "scoring to picture" then I think of timecode numbers and so forth.



Agreed.


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## Arviwan

Thank you @charlieclouser & @Ashermusic 
If anyone wants to bring complement of informations or nuances, i'm taker !


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## GULL

Replicant said:


> Recently, I had this discussion with a friend of mine and wanted to see what you guys think: I was recently acquainted with this middle-aged guy (probably early 40s) who is a long-time musician, but told me he wanted to get into film and game music, despite having no film or game credits or experience.
> 
> This got me to thinking
> 
> *At what age, if any, is the aspiration to become a professional media composer no longer practical?
> *
> If you want to get into it, you're going to have to start on indie projects generally made by emerging directors and developers. Most of these people, from my observations, would be recent graduates or maybe 30 years old at max. At that age range, many aspiring composers already have a lengthy list of credits to their name.
> 
> I imagine it would be difficult for a guy in his 40s to "break into" the business when most aspiring pros half his age would likely have either more scoring experience, more common ground with up-and-coming directors, or both.
> 
> EDIT: I've changed the thread title as I feel the original may have caused some confusion.



I know I am late to the party. But, 'age of making it' is just a statistical average.


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## Fab

Interesting.

pretty sure its around 30 if your aspiring to be a pro athlete, but for composers...as long as you have your mental and physical function still working reasonably well, the will to learn and you can click a mouse...I don't see why you can't 'make it' whatever that means for your friend. What I'd say but...

then again, as you get older...I imagine the responsibilities you have pile up, and if your not already in the industry. I think probably you are at a disadvantage because of time. But then, yesterday I heard of a composer who went from no music experience what so ever to getting trailer placements, feature length film work etc... all within a year!

I think so for now.

Say the above is true and you have the time and energy available to use.

Then say your idea of making it was the same as the average 20 something years old composer on here...world domination, probably more.

There must be transferable life experience you get as you get older that can compensate for the younger generation having outright more skill specifically in one area.

---

But then, wait what...

that is wrong isn't it.

Really important to define making it first.

If your already at retirement age, and you suddenly decide 'I want to be pro virtuoso violin player', better than anyone...not gonna happen is it.

Another argument might look like this;

You are returning to music at ? after having left music as a career in your 20-30s because x reason. You have since had a great career in y and raised a family, been loved, have had your best dad/mum mug etc etc... and now, you have free time and want to get back into music as a professional.

I think the above would also be a scenario which most people would think sounds reasonable.


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## agarner32

This has been a very interesting thread and a lot of great comments have been made. For me though, the original question hasn't really been answered - maybe it can't be.

I still think that it's really unlikely that somebody late in life can "make it." But, what is late in life and what is "making it?

There is no right answer for the above questions, but let's say for the sake of argument making it is earning 100K or above and late in life is 50 and above. I'm really using myself as an example. I'm 59 and make well above 6 figures from teaching at a college and playing professionally. I'm doing another graduate degree degree full-time at Think Space while working. I consider myself a good composer in general, but not much experience in writing for media other than projects at TS and a few short corporate videos.

Is it realistic for me (or anybody else in a similar place) to someday be able to make a similar income as a composer in the film industry? I would say it's not realistic. I guess the best question is, can anybody name a composer who has become successful in a similar situation? I'd love to quit my teaching gig and just work composing music if I could consistently make the same money. I don't really subscribe to the idea that anything is possible.


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## Jeremy Spencer

agarner32 said:


> I don't really subscribe to the idea that anything is possible.



And that's only because you subscribe to that mentality. There's absolutely no reason why someone like yourself could not earn a decent income as a film composer. You just need to look for the opportunities, figure out how to get there, and commit. I think the main thing is to not give a s++t what anyone tells you (with regards to negativity and discouragement), and by not looking at statistics and what society says you can or can't do.


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## JohnG

While age prejudice is no doubt an issue, maybe the practical problems this creates have diminished with the way business is conducted now, in what I view as a far less personal way?

In the olden days, you met the director and / or producer, had a somewhat lengthy conversation (though often it was about the most peripheral or even irrelevant topics). Getting to know each other seemed at that time to be valued.

That seems less true today. By the time I meet or see someone on FaceTime, I'm often already hired, so there's no obvious way for them to know exactly what I'm like / look like before they've already made the decision.

Moreover, even during production, apart from a video conference here and there, interaction is much more limited than it once was. In past times, the director might be sitting on your couch hearing and viewing the latest part of the score. Now, that seems rare.

All of that makes for a process that, sadly, lacks much of the human engagement that can be a joy in creating a collaborative work. But it also means that someone might have a shot, despite few credits and gray hair but, nevertheless, something really valid to say musically.

Just speculating really, but the answer to whether you're "too old" or "too [fill in the blank]" is, I think, changing rapidly.


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## JohnG

Wolfie2112 said:


> You just need to look for the opportunities, figure out how to get there, and commit.



While I admire the "can do" positivity Wolfie, I think discarding a career and just going for it can be reckless if you have, for example, tenure at an academic position or at least an established reputation there, and you also have obligations (children, spouse, and so on). For someone in that position, casting a reliable situation aside can be the wrong course. 

Secure spots are not so thick on the ground now, so returning might be impossible if it doesn't work out. Moreover, returning to former colleagues with "FAILURE" written all over you may be pretty difficult. Besides, it can easily take ten years to get fully established.

That said, there are small opportunities that nevertheless make money here and there -- advertising being an obvious one. One of my old BMI buddies just finished writing a ballet for orchestra, for example, and he originally got much of his traction from Soundcloud posts.

Anyway, who knows?


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## agarner32

JohnG said:


> While age prejudice is no doubt an issue, maybe the practical problems this creates have diminished with the way business is conducted now, in what I view as a far less personal way?
> 
> In the olden days, you met the director and / or producer, had a somewhat lengthy conversation (though often it was about the most peripheral or even irrelevant topics). Getting to know each other seemed at that time to be valued.
> 
> That seems less true today. By the time I meet or see someone on FaceTime, I'm often already hired, so there's no obvious way for them to know exactly what I'm like / look like before they've already made the decision.
> 
> Moreover, even during production, apart from a video conference here and there, interaction is much more limited than it once was. In past times, the director might be sitting on your couch hearing and viewing the latest part of the score. Now, that seems rare.
> 
> All of that makes for a process that, sadly, lacks much of the human engagement that can be a joy in creating a collaborative work. But it also means that someone might have a shot, despite few credits and gray hair but, nevertheless, something really valid to say musically.
> 
> Just speculating really, but the answer to whether you're "too old" or "too [fill in the blank]" is, I think, changing rapidly.


Really good post John and very insightful. Well at least at 59 I have all my hair and it's barely gray so far. Hopefully having studied and made a living in music for decades will put me ahead in some ways.

Also to your next post, that's me to a tee except with no kids. You're right on. I have a tenured position, wife, house pension etc. There is no way I'm about to quit and move to LA to chase a dream - that surely would be reckless from my perspective.


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## jononotbono

Yeah that would be reckless because if you lose your house, where am I gonna crash when I eventually get to California chasing my dreams? Don't be selfish man.


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## agarner32

Haha Luke, you're welcome in my house wherever I live. Where else would I get private Cubase tutoring?


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## Jeremy Spencer

I'm by no means saying to throw your current life to the side to pursue it, because you can "make it" without having to do that. You also don't need to make drastic steps, like moving to LA, to be successful. The internet has made the world a very small place. In my personal gameplan, I'm going to continue my regular career and keep plugging away at music until it's feasible to go at it full time. It may never happen, but it has been paying off for the past number of years in that regard and it's a realistic goal at this point...sometime in the next five years.


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## JohnG

good post @Wolfie2112


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## C.R. Rivera

Wolfie2112, I was perusing your website and considered that, for a moment, you are on your second career. I wonder if you can also claim credit as one of the founders of Fleetwood Mac? Rock on!


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## Jeremy Spencer

C.R. Rivera said:


> Wolfie2112, I was perusing your website and considered that, for a moment, you are on your second career. I wonder if you can also claim credit as one of the founders of Fleetwood Mac? Rock on!



D'oh! Is it that bad? :(

Yes, if you go to the .com for my domain, it is indeed one of the founders Fleetwood Mac! What a strange story that guy has.


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## C.R. Rivera

Wolfie2112 said:


> D'oh! Is it that bad? :(
> 
> Yes, if you go to the .com for my domain, it is indeed one of the founders Fleetwood Mac! What a strange story that guy has.



But, he also fits nicely in this thread. as certainly he has had several careers in music. Great guitarist, but not so a great a human being. I wonder how many people do a double take, and say to you, "You look much younger than I expected".


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## Mr Mindcrime

Nick Batzdorf said:


> Ever heard anyone say "I'm not dead yet?"
> 
> It's probably an old Jewish expression, I don't know.



".....I"m not dead yet"....... "you will be soon....do us a favor..." Sorry, just lapsed into Monty Python....bad habit of mine


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## Desire Inspires

It's not about age, it's about wage. If you aren't making enough money, nothing else matters.


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## Replicant

Desire Inspires said:


> It's not about age, it's about wage. If you aren't making enough money, nothing else matters.



In the past, I've worked the low-paying, soul-crushing jobs.

The fact that I could go home after an 8 - 12 hour shift (even if it was just part time), where I was usually too mentally worn down to do music anyway, and enjoy the time I spent composing or working on projects that only yielded "artistic satisfaction" as rewards did nothing to offset the fact that day-to-day life was pretty miserable, but hey — at least I had money and time for music stuff, right? Cheap cars that broke down, lots of instant noodles, and girls just cut into the music budget.

I simply can't imagine being in that situation in my 30s or beyond. You can only put up with that kind of lifestyle and the sacrifices it requires for so long.

The problem is that doing something that makes your daily life not suck _generally_ requires an investment of time and devotion that will pretty much curb your aspirations of making music your living, which is why I feel that after a certain point, it's best to just downgrade musical pursuits to "exclusively a hobby" because odds are, that's all it will be at that point.


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## InLight-Tone

When you're six feet under...


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## thesteelydane

Replicant said:


> In the past, I've worked the low-paying, soul-crushing jobs.
> 
> The fact that I could go home after an 8 - 12 hour shift (even if it was just part time), where I was usually too mentally worn down to do music anyway, and enjoy the time I spent composing or working on projects that only yielded "artistic satisfaction" as rewards did nothing to offset the fact that day-to-day life was pretty miserable, but hey — at least I had money and time for music stuff, right? Cheap cars that broke down, lots of instant noodles, and girls just cut into the music budget.
> 
> I simply can't imagine being in that situation in my 30s or beyond. You can only put up with that kind of lifestyle and the sacrifices it requires for so long.
> 
> The problem is that doing something that makes your daily life not suck _generally_ requires an investment of time and devotion that will pretty much curb your aspirations of making music your living, which is why I feel that after a certain point, it's best to just downgrade musical pursuits to "exclusively a hobby" because odds are, that's all it will be at that point.



For me, any job that isn't music is utterly soul crushing, so I have no choice but to press on despite being 41. It's not about money, or being comfortable, it's about only feeeling happy and fulfilled when doing music. In the past few years I've tried other jobs, including teaching music, and all of them have made me severely depressed. Of course, that said, I have had a long career as a player, but now I'd rather spend the rest of my life as a creator, so I'm not starting from scratch, but rather trying to undergo a deliberate career metamorphosis...


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## Jeremy Spencer

@thesteelydane, good post. I can't imagine settling with the notion of being a hobbyist or enthusiast. Even if I end up working my regular career until retirement, I will always be pushing full steam ahead with creating music; whether it be for film, TV, radio, advertising, theatre, or whatever. Otherwise, there would be this huge, gaping hole I my life. It's all about balance and making the time.


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## InLight-Tone

Wolfie2112 said:


> @thesteelydane, good post. I can't imagine settling with the notion of being a hobbyist or enthusiast. Even if I end up working my regular career until retirement, I will always be pushing full steam ahead with creating music; whether it be for film, TV, radio, advertising, theatre, or whatever. Otherwise, there would be this huge, gaping hole I my life. It's all about balance and making the time.



Amen, but you should never retire, it's bad for health and longevity...
https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2017/07/27/japanese-doctor-who-studied-longevity-and-lived-to-105-retirement-advice/23052033/


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