# Most Disappointing Library Purchase?



## tsk

What would be your most disappointing library purchase of 2017?

I would say mine is probably Output's complete bundle. I just don't use it anywhere near as much as I was expecting.


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## trumpoz

United String of Europe 1st Violins. Impulse buy for a layering lib. Not saying it is a bad lib - just not for me.


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## WindcryMusic

So far, I'm sorry to say it is 8DIO Insolidus. Not finding it to be as useful as I'd hoped, nor does it seem to sound as good as I had thought from the demos. Might just be that I haven't spent enough time with it yet ... I haven't given up on it, but I'm concerned.


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## kimarnesen

For me, it must be Spitfire's Orchestral Grand. Thankfully not expensive, but can't use it for anything :O


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## bigcat1969

Embarrassed to admit I bought it, but Sampletank 3 and the lower end Miro 2. I had picked up a ton of ST2 / Miro 1 stuff dirt cheap years ago and had fun with it. Thought ST3 / M2 would be on par with say mid tier modern stuff. Boy was I wrong. Terrible sound, terrible interface.


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## PaulBrimstone

kimarnesen said:


> For me, it must be Spitfire's Orchestral Grand. Thankfully not expensive, but can't use it for anything :O


Is it just me, but is the darned thing out of tune?


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## kimarnesen

PaulBrimstone said:


> Is it just me, but is the darned thing out of tune?



I don't know, but it sounds like it's recorded in water, and it's phasing.


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## Zoot_Rollo

Halion Symphonic Orchestra


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## germancomponist

https://www.sound-ideas.com/Product/415/The-Original-Fart-Sound-Effects-Library


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## dcoscina

Don’t really use IK Sampletank 3 either. Huge memory footprint. Same goes for their Syntronik. I use Arturia V collection 6 and Zebra a lot more.


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## Greg

Spitfire Phobos. So far from what I thought it was that I uninstalled it and wrote it off as an impulsive disaster buy.


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## Geocranium

germancomponist said:


> https://www.sound-ideas.com/Product/415/The-Original-Fart-Sound-Effects-Library



Can't say you didn't know what you were getting yourself into.


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## MillsMixx

*8Dio Agitato Legato Arpeggio* (What good are the ostinato phrases if they don't loop. Useless library and waste of money)
*8Dio Aura Guitars *(Poor interface and usability)
*Spitfire Phobos* (I don't really resonate with it so far and doubt I'll use it much)
*Sample Logic Rhythmology*
too many others not worth mentioning


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## anp27

bigcat1969 said:


> Embarrassed to admit I bought it, but Sampletank 3 and the lower end Miro 2. I had picked up a ton of ST2 / Miro 1 stuff dirt cheap years ago and had fun with it. Thought ST3 / M2 would be on par with say mid tier modern stuff. Boy was I wrong. Terrible sound, terrible interface.



Yeah... I remember when they had announced that ST3 was coming and they hyped it up pretty bad. I bought into the hype. They also kept stressing that the only way you could keep on using Miroslav Philharmonik (1) in 64 bit would be to import the library into ST3, so I did the $99 'pre-order' thing. I did a reinstall of my system and I didn't even bother installing ST3 this time...


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## jtnyc

Heavyocity Intimate Textures

The textures are a cool idea, but these recordings are scratchy in a harsh and unpleasing way for my ears. Many of them are also on the busy side for me. The other stuff, the whole processing strings through distortion, compression, gating and sequencing just sounds awful to to me. It just sounds so gimmicky. While I can get some use out of the basic texture patches (so long as I EQ them), I do regret the purchase


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## jtnyc

I'll add Heavyocity Vocalize as well

Pads are mostly cluttered sounding and swamped in reverb and delay. The velocity response is really strange as well. Even using the velocity adjustment that they supply, the dynamic range always feel large and overly sensitive. The vocal phrases are nice, but they are not tempo synced. Not terrible library, but disappointed in enough ways to regret it -


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## Greg

jtnyc said:


> Heavyocity Intimate Textures
> 
> The textures are a cool idea, but these recordings are scratchy in a harsh and unpleasing way for my ears. Many of them are also on the busy side for me. The other stuff, the whole processing strings through distortion, compression, gating and sequencing just sounds awful to to me. It just sounds so gimmicky. While I can get some use out of the basic texture patches (so long as I EQ them), I do regret the purchase



Same here, it's no where near spitfire in audio quality. Heavyocity has some great ideas and some good sounds but they always need so much eq and processing to get the mixing right.


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## dpasdernick

Impact Sound Works Straight Ahead Jazz Horns. I mostly bought it for the auto-harmonizer thingy but the actual sound of the library is pretty bad IMHO. I get better mileage with Session Horns Pro and Obellisk. To add insult to injury i snuck this purchase on a credit card behind the wife's back. She no happy.


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## PeterN

Lyrical Cello Phrases by Sonuscore. 

Somehow I mixed this up, and bought wrong library, I thought it was another product called Emotional Cello.

Whats even the point with a library that isnt tempo fixed. I opened it once and have never opened it since - why even have something like that for sale among VST:s. Straight from the arab market.


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## X-Bassist

MillsMixx said:


> *8Dio Agitato Legato Arpeggio* (What good are the ostinato phrases if they don't loop. Useless library and waste of money)
> *8Dio Aura Guitars *(Poor interface and usability)
> *Spitfire Phobos* (I don't really resonate with it so far and doubt I'll use it much)
> *Sample Logic Rhythmology*
> too many others not worth mentioning



I’m with you on most of this, but really thought Rhythmology would be useful, no? Reminds me of my most disappointing purchase- *Sonokinetics Cappricio*, the phrases don’t always switch smoothly and have limited variety- with zero dynamics. Volume yes, dynamics no. Very limited. Never got Rhythmology but it sounds good. I think I’m just done using phrase libraries, the limitations for the price is just to great (even on sale).


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## PeterN

jtnyc said:


> Heavyocity Intimate Textures
> 
> The textures are a cool idea, but these recordings are scratchy in a harsh and unpleasing way for my ears. Many of them are also on the busy side for me. The other stuff, the whole processing strings through distortion, compression, gating and sequencing just sounds awful to to me. It just sounds so gimmicky. While I can get some use out of the basic texture patches (so long as I EQ them), I do regret the purchase



I recently figured out the slight scratchiness and slight harshness is what makes Heavyocitys Intimate Textures stand out. They provide a surprise element in a composition, makes it a bit more sharp, and add color by that. Especially to the soft stuff, they do a wonderful surprise contrast. But must be used in moderation.


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## tsk

Probably the only library which has lived up to my expectations is Una Corda.

Heavyocity's Scoring Guitars has some really nice stuff in it too.

U-he are really nice but to be honest I barely use Zebra and don't often see how I would.

My current hype is on Xfer's Serum. The walkthroughs make it look totally amazing. But these days I'm jaded. P.S. I've never bought a single Spitfire product.


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## jtnyc

Greg said:


> Same here, it's no where near spitfire in audio quality. Heavyocity has some great ideas and some good sounds but they always need so much eq and processing to get the mixing right.



I think their drum stuff sounds great and has a signature sound. Also their earlier hybrid synth stuff like the Evolve's sound great as well, but some of the more recent releases that are more vocal/orchestral based just don't do it for me. They are all about heavy processing really and that has worked well in those earlier libraries. Personally I just don't like hearing strings with distortion, or vocals with gates etc... Output is going down this path full on. I guess it's the latest thing.

I'm getting much more satisfaction from smaller creative developers like Sound Dust. Really cool, original, flexible stuff at very affordable prices. I've never regretted a purchase. I'm afraid to make expensive purchases from companies that don't allow license transfers. Burned too many times -


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## Sopranos

Unfortunately, Sonikenetic libraries let me down... and I purchased several over the holiday sale. 

The cracking between chords on playback makes them virtually unusable for me. And I'm on a modern Mac with relatively high specs and even using lite. And plenty high buffer, etc.

Just not worth it at all in this case.


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## tsk

jtnyc said:


> I think their drum stuff sounds great and has a signature sound. Also their earlier hybrid synth stuff like the Evolve's sound great as well, but some of the more recent releases that are more vocal/orchestral based just don't do it for me. They are all about heavy processing really and that has worked well in those earlier libraries. Personally I just don't like hearing strings with distortion, or vocals with gates etc... Output is going down this path full on. I guess it's the latest thing.
> 
> I'm getting much more satisfaction from smaller creative developers like Sound Dust. Really cool, original, flexible stuff at very affordable prices. I've never regretted a purchase. I'm afraid to make expensive purchases from companies that don't allow license transfers. Burned too many times -



Yea, Output has gone down this route a lot in my opinion. 

I'll check out Sound Dust.. looks interesting.


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## Mike Fox

Majestica...I want my money back.


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## Jack Weaver

I'd love to have back the brain cells that are apparently missing that caused me to buy Spitfire Phobos.

.


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## kitekrazy

I can't even remember any libraries I bought because they were not expensive. I always think the cinematic/fx type libraries are always a crap shoot. Maybe it's time to make your own. As many synth VSTs I have I do find the smaller developers making some great Kontakt synths. I expanded more of my Hideaway Studio collection and will move on to getting more stuff from Frozen Plain. I'm staying away from orchestra libraries except when VSL have sales. HWO Gold will probably be my final library purchase someday. I think disappointments increase as much as our library collections increase. For me Live packs are often disappoint. Installation is a rocket science, samples aren't loaded correctly and easily forgotten when they are installed. The Samples from Mars collection might be it for me. The drums are useful but the synths are not. Some vintage synth emulations using samples are probably a waste. The real disappointment is myself for thinking gigabytes of sound equals value.


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## synthpunk

I have no regrets. Life is too short, plus I carefully listen to demo's, reviews, feedback, buy for need, and most importantly to not buy on impulse or just because of sale.


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## dtcomposer

synthpunk said:


> I have not regrets. Life is too short, plus I carefully listen to demo's, reviews, feedback, buy on need, and most importantly to not buy on impulse or sale.



This is the way. I make a list over time of things that I really need/like. I then wait until I either need it immediately or there is a big sale. Almost every time I've purchased on an impulse I've regretted it. 

As for my biggest regret: Spitfire solo strings. Still holding out hope to turn that one around when I finally get the update .


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## PeterN

Heres another (half) regret: Albion 2.

Main reason is the out of tune flute. Being the respectable company they are, they should fix this crap with an update, and, it should have been fixed long ago. From a customer viewpoint (and we are talking 400€ here), if you buy a car and one tire come in a rectangular shape, the company should fix that tire pretty damn fast. And give a box of chocolates as compliments.

The strings are not that unique - you can tweak Albion one to same sound. So 400 € for that great sounding euphonium. Nope. Fix that flute, thanks.


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## noises on

PeterN said:


> Lyrical Cello Phrases by Sonuscore.
> 
> Somehow I mixed this up, and bought wrong library, I thought it was another product called Emotional Cello.
> 
> Whats even the point with a library that isnt tempo fixed. I opened it once and have never opened it since - why even have something like that for sale among VST:s. Straight from the arab market.


Hope you eventually picked up Emotional Cello


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## MaxOctane

I tend to not “regret” libraries so much as wishful-think that one day I’ll figure out how to use them and then I’ll make something wonderful.

Phobos, for example, I’ve used very little. But the few good moments I’ve recorded, are very good indeed. To this day, i find Christian’s phobos demo to be very moving, and I aspire to capture that mood.

Ditto Sonokinetic. I picked up sotto, maximo, capriccio, and minimal over holidays. Wow, that’s a lot of phrases. Now, I haven’t created a full track with them, but only sprinkled a few phrases here and there, and that’s been nice. Someday, someday, a full track 

Now... and you guys are gonna scream at me... the one library I DO actualy regret, becuase I insta-bought it the moment it came out because I’d been waiting for it for so long: cinematic studio solo strings. The sustains and the vibrato are just awful. The shorts are nice but that’s not enough. I know I’m in the minority here.


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## Kent

Albion ONE, sadly. Either that or the EWQL package they had before CC was a thing...


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## HeliaVox

I feel blessed in comparison. The sample libraries I bought last year I really love.
Except!
There are always exceptions.
The last few Native Instruments Maschine Expansions I bought really haven't clicked with me. 
The demos were great, but when I started playing around everything just kinda fizzled.
But I only buy the expansions when I have a coupon, so for $25.00, I'm not complaining too loud.
Maybe I'll find a studio partner who could really put them to good use.


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## constaneum

Adagio strings for me. Luckily I got at a 50% off deal. I love the sounds but the legato isn't that usable for my writing and lots of out of tune sounds as well.


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## Celador

Sonokinetic Grosso. It sounds pretty out of sync. I own several Sonokinetic phrase based libraries and they don't have that issue. An no: I didn't use it in a 4/4 context .


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## kimarnesen

I bought The Loop Lofts flute samples for $10.000 and don’t think it was worth it


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## tsk

Come to think of it, I think I probably use less than 5% of all the patches in all the libraries that I have. I mean NI Komplete U comes with so much I guess that's inevitable. And of all the extra plugins I've bought, I probably haven't used more than 10% of the patches. 

However, when I find a patch I like and tweak it a bit.. I can use it absolutely to death


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## Alex Fraser

What a strange thread. Kind of like a wierd confessional.

Not a regret per se, but mine would be Spitfire eDNA Earth. 

I absolutely love the sound. But Kontakt’s general preset clunkiness gets in the way of using it, so I always reach for something else in the heat of battle.

Hence I’ve used it precisely twice.


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## Eptesicus

Quite a few, Zero G perception - i thought it was a kontakt instrument but it isnt really, just a load of samples/loops and i don't really like to work like that. Prefer proper virtual instruments.

heavyocity vocalise like others have said, was a bit disappointing but i still think there are some useful sounds/pads in there.

Fortunately both were in the sale and fairly cheap so not too much wasted.

Still unsure about Synchron Strings - It has some plus points but also some bad. I'm waiting for it to actually be fully released with the Synchron player before passing final judgement!

Buying vst's can be a real gamble, even with extensive research.

I did buy all three SYmphobia's over Christmas as well....now that i do not regret. They are brilliant. It just sounds so good "straight out of the box"


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## leon chevalier

Sonokinetic Da Capo,

Every instrument misses something really important that make them unusable

Strings patch : High register for violins is missing, it stop at c5
Strings patch : The when you play from E2 to D2 and go between cellos and basses it's like if those section where not recorded with the same orchestra/mics/room... 
Brass patch : No trumpets ???? and stop at c4 ? WTF... so no high register
Winds patch : huge blow noise, it's like they have put a mic at 1 mm from the player's mouths. In a orchestral distance hearing you should not hear those noise so loud.
Perc patch : no modwheel controlable roll patch.
You can overcome those limitations and write *FOR *da capo (like the demos) but you cannot write *WITH *da capo. I bought this as stretching tool, but never used it.


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## ysnyvz

leon chevalier said:


> I bought this as stretching tool, but never used it.


You don't need samples for stretching, here you can do it for free:


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## mickeyl

mikefox789 said:


> Majestica...I want my money back.



Same here... was fooled by the incredible demo skills.


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## Guffy

mikefox789 said:


> Majestica...I want my money back.


Imagine what you must have felt like if you purchased it's big brother - 8W Black Edition, for 2 grand


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## EvilDragon

PeterN said:


> Main reason is the out of tune flute.



There's no flute in Alb 2? You mean recorder?



Celador said:


> Sonokinetic Grosso. It sounds pretty out of sync.



It's not.


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## Eptesicus

Majestica seems to be getting a fair bit of flak in this thread. What is wrong with it?


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## brynolf

mikefox789 said:


> Majestica...I want my money back.


Totally. I've used some brass notes here and there, otherwise useless.


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## leon chevalier

ysnyvz said:


> You don't need samples for stretching, here you can do it for free:


I understand now  so I take back my comment ! It may be great for sketching but for stretching it's definitely an horrible library !!!!


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## Pietro

EvilDragon said:


> (Regarding Grosso being out of sync)
> It's not.



Yeah, it must be the ultra confusing tripplet feel again, haha.

- Piotr


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## NYC Composer

N.


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## Celador

Pietro said:


> Yeah, it must be the ultra confusing tripplet feel again, haha.
> 
> - Piotr


Not at all. There were just several phrases where the notes came just a few ticks behind the beat making it impossible to make them sound not sloppy. And it was not a sequencing fault of mine as I use other Sonokinetic phrase based libraries without that issue. However it might be that they fixed it with 2.0.


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## Pietro

Celador said:


> Not at all. There were just several phrases where the notes came just a few ticks behind the beat making it impossible to make them sound not sloppy. And it was not a sequencing fault of mine as I use other Sonokinetic phrase based libraries without that issue. However it might be that they fixed it with 2.0.



Oh, ok. You first made it sound like it's all out of sync. It's possible some were slighly off. I usually just deal with it by triggering earlier/later or fixing in audio.

Same with transitions, that some people mentioned. It's live orchestra recorded, so timing between different chords may fluctuate a bit, although they are edited to work together as best as possible without compromising audio quality. When doing transitions between chords, I use phrase continue (so it doesn't trigger new sample from the beginning), I turn release samples off (almost always) and fine tune transition timing in midi to happen between the notes, not on downbeats. So when changing chords, I usually do it slightly ahead of time, so that I don't get a trace of downbeat from previous chord. Similar thing you would do when comping live recordings or using real legato samples.

But there's always something to improve, so all feedback is welcome. Best to contact support directly, I think.

- Piotr


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## Puzzlefactory

I guess from all the stuff I bought last year, HWO was the most disappointing. Not because it’s bad, just that the other libraries I bought were better, IMO. 

It is a nice library but the load times are ridiculous and the fact they didn’t put dynamics on cc1 for some of the patches makes t difficult to layer.


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## Zoot_Rollo

Sound Dust looks great.

Gonna double dip here and add,

Most of my VST synths

And

Halion 6 (not just HSO).


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## Darren Durann

I didn't need all the Spitfire Evos 1-4.


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## zvenx

My two biggest disappointments are: #1 Lass Lite and #2 EW Hollywood Orchestra Diamond/Gold, neither were however bought last year......For last year I guess my least favourite is CSS Piano.....just way too harsh/hard for my taste, but I suspected it before I bought it but wanted to support Alex...To me it is more a rock and roll piano than a film scoring piano. rsp


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## Sovereign

VSL Synchron strings.


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## Ihnoc

Personally, EastWest Hollywood Orchestra Gold. Not because of the sound, or the resource requirements, which I have no issue with. No, my regret comes from Play, and its inability to do things I can do in Kontakt and VSL, like reassign which CC I want to control something, or map velocity to a CC instead.

Maybe I'm just spoiled.


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## Pietro

Puzzlefactory said:


> I guess from all the stuff I bought last year, HWO was the most disappointing. Not because it’s bad, just that the other libraries I bought were better, IMO.
> 
> It is a nice library but the load times are ridiculous and the fact they didn’t put dynamics on cc1 for some of the patches makes t difficult to layer.



Regarding dynamics on CC1 - I think the only ones that have dynamics on CC11 are the fuller legato patches, that include vibrato control (which is then tied to CC1). Everything that is up to 6 layer is CC1 controlable. Only exception are the trill and tremolo patches, I think.

- Piotr


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## SillyMidOn

8Dio Blendstrument Hybrid Pulses - nothing like as many variations as one might expect from the video. Useful, but limited, and very same-y sounding.


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## Sears Poncho

synthpunk said:


> I carefully listen to demo's, reviews, feedback,



Same here. My only regrets would be about my inability to use a product. Those funk guitar samples have collected a lot of dust.


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## slobajudge

I can`t and don`t want to say, still hiding from myself and the excellent review I gave to this product `somewhere` years ago


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## robgb

Albion One. I quickly discovered that I have no real interest in combined instruments and the loss of control that comes with it. I use it very little now.


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## robgb

PeterN said:


> Somehow I mixed this up, and bought wrong library, I thought it was another product called Emotional Cello.


This is precisely why returns or exchanges should be allowed by every developer.


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## Darren Durann

robgb said:


> Albion One. I quickly discovered that I have no real interest in combined instruments and the loss of control that comes with it. I use it very little now.





robgb said:


> This is precisely why returns or exchanges should be allowed by every developer.



Yes, and yes. Albion One is an okay option for ideas, but that baked in sound...I'd recommend the Hollywood or Hein before that one.

Iceni was another that was so hard to deal with in a mix...until I checked out videos online on how to deal with it better. I never got past it in Albion One, but Iceni is working in my mixes better and better for me now (great library btw, and not just for rugged stuff).

Sometimes I wonder if I was able to accommodate the baked in reverb in Iceni better than Alb 1 because I just plain LIKE the former a lot better.

That said, I have to give props to the imaginative Spiccato/Staccato patch in Alb 1; it can have its uses, especially when inspired. But I always take what I sketched in Alb 1 and replace it later with EW or Hein lol!


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## Symfoniq

Probably VSL Solo Violin 2 and VSL Solo Cello 2. I think the original VSL Solo Strings are pretty excellent, so I was surprised that these additional solo instruments weren't up to VSL's usual quality.

I've also not been especially impressed with Albion ONE. I own quite a few Spitfire libraries (including all the Albions), and Albion ONE is my least favorite.

Without some improvements in the legato department, Synchron Strings is looking like it will be a disappointment. It's difficult to judge the library right now because VSL released it in an unfinished state. But this likely marks the last time I will pre-order a VSL library.


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## robgb

Darren Durann said:


> I have to give props to the imaginative Spiccato/Staccato patch in Alb 1, it can have its uses, especially when inspired.


Yes, the shorts in A1 are very nice. And the Steamband is pretty nice, too. But certainly not enough to justify the price, IMO.


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## S4410

I usually don't regret buying a library especially if I can resell them. Usually I stop using 'old ' libraries for example Halion Symphonic Orchestra is outdated- but still gets its use with Dorico.


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## robgb

zvenx said:


> #1 Lass Lite


I'm curious to know why you feel this way. I haven't used it but have heard good things about it.


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## Darren Durann

;


robgb said:


> Yes, the shorts in A1 are very nice. And the Steamband is pretty nice, too. But certainly not enough to justify the price, IMO.



Noooo. I get the feeling we might be seeing that library half price in the not so distant future. Which would be much more fair; Alb1 is like a gateway drug into better (i.e. easier to mix and more consistently useable) libraries. If the price was knocked off at least that much then beginners could do a whole lot worse; Alb 1 (and in some ways Legacy) can give a good rough idea of the orchestral sound one might be looking for without the absolute imperative of studying the EW manuals...


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## Karl Feuerstake

8Dio Century Brass. Just didn't do what I was expecting it to, and don't expect I'll actually get any use out of it in the future.


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## synthpunk

That and the promised development never materialized as they went on to there next 25 products.



Alex Fraser said:


> Not a regret per se, but mine would be Spitfire eDNA Earth.
> 
> I absolutely love the sound. But Kontakt’s general preset clunkiness gets in the way of using it, so I always reach for something else in the heat of battle.
> 
> Hence I’ve used it precisely twice.


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## Mike Fox

Fugdup said:


> Imagine what you must have felt like if you purchased it's big brother - 8W Black Edition, for 2 grand


Damn.


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## Alex Fraser

synthpunk said:


> That and the promised development never materialized as they went on to there next 25 products.


True. Clearly folk weren’t really into it so priorities shifted. It’s a pretty complete collection as is though. I’ll be (trying to) use it for a long while yet. Definitely worth a Spitfire sale plunge.

Anyway, this is a moan thread, so..


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## Puzzlefactory

I’m surprised to see people regretting (or thinking its overpriced) buuing Albion One. Even though I have quite a few libraries, I still use it in pretty much every track I’ve written recently. 

The only thing I don’t particularly like are the mid and high brass samples, but everything else gets regular use.


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## AllanH

I have no real regrets, but there are products/instruments that I no longer use. As my skills and tastes have developed over the years, some of my earlier purchases no longer work as well for me. The best example, is Sample Tank 3. However, ST3 is how I rediscovered Miroslav, and Miroslav was the beginning of whole new creative cycle that ultimately kickstarted where I am today.


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## Alex Fraser

Puzzlefactory said:


> I’m surprised to see people regretting (or thinking its overpriced) buuing Albion One. Even though I have quite a few libraries, I still use it in pretty much every track I’ve written recently.
> 
> The only thing I don’t particularly like are the mid and high brass samples, but everything else gets regular use.


Agreed. I use it everywhere and for everything. Great value if your expectations are in check for it.


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## Darren Durann

Puzzlefactory said:


> I’m surprised to see people regretting (or thinking its overpriced) buuing Albion One. Even though I have quite a few libraries, I still use it in pretty much every track I’ve written recently.
> 
> The only thing I don’t particularly like are the mid and high brass samples, but everything else gets regular use.



The legato woodwinds can be excellent iirc. I just don't use them much.

I have my own IRs so I like to create my own concert and chamber hall reverbs. If that makes any sense lol! The AIR sound is excellent, sure...but I don't like much of it in my final mockups. At all, really.


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## catsass

I've made a number of purchases (not limited to 2017) under the guise of, "Well, I don't often write in the style that this lib lends itself to, but when I do I'll have this in my arsenal - rip-roaring and ready to go!"

Needles to say, a fair amount of these purchases are collecting binary dust. This is especially true of libraries targeting the EDM crowd. But that brief could be sitting in my inbox as we speak. And I'm ready, damn it!


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## kitekrazy

Eptesicus said:


> *Quite a few, Zero G perception - i thought it was a kontakt instrument but it isnt really, just a load of samples/loops and i don't really like to work like that. Prefer proper virtual instruments.*
> 
> heavyocity vocalise like others have said, was a bit disappointing but i still think there are some useful sounds/pads in there.
> 
> Fortunately both were in the sale and fairly cheap so not too much wasted.
> 
> Still unsure about Synchron Strings - It has some plus points but also some bad. I'm waiting for it to actually be fully released with the Synchron player before passing final judgement!
> 
> Buying vst's can be a real gamble, even with extensive research.
> 
> I did buy all three SYmphobia's over Christmas as well....now that i do not regret. They are brilliant. It just sounds so good "straight out of the box"



That's Zero-G for you. Their stuff is quality but for loop libraries (I'm a junkie) I'm buying smaller packs. Larger ones are too overwhelming to go through. So many boasting of gigabytes are often stems instead of loops. I like the ones that contain midi, one shots, synth presets that are under 500mb.


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## kitekrazy

I love thread like this. It hopefully brings you to some contentment. (uh..right) If there was a show called DAW Hoarders there is probably enough material for a 10 year run.


----------



## Polkasound

I deeply regret buying CSS and LASS. They are the most worthless, unusable libraries I ever purchased. I just can't fit them into any of my compositions. Please stay away from those libraries. Do not make the mistake I did. Do not purchase Cowbell Stentando Slaps or Large Amplified Scoring Sitars.


----------



## reddognoyz

bigcat1969 said:


> Embarrassed to admit I bought it, but Sampletank 3 and the lower end Miro 2. I had picked up a ton of ST2 / Miro 1 stuff dirt cheap years ago and had fun with it. Thought ST3 / M2 would be on par with say mid tier modern stuff. Boy was I wrong. Terrible sound, terrible interface.



it was completely archaic when it was released


----------



## N.Caffrey

Polkasound said:


> I deeply regret buying CSS and LASS. They are the most worthless, unusable libraries I ever purchased. I just can't fit them into any of my compositions. Please stay away from those libraries. Do not make the mistake I did. Do not purchase Cowbell Stentando Slaps or Large Amplified Scoring Sitars.


You must be joking. LASS was my first library, and despite not using it too often I was playing with it yesterday thinking it still holds up really well. CSS, specially in combo with CSSS, is one of the most, if the not the most, realistic string library out there for me.


----------



## Erick - BVA

I think most stuff you can get a use out of, in some way, but it doesn't mean it didn't disappointing as well.
Reading through made me grateful that I didn't buy certain libraries, that's for sure. 

I think the one purchase I regret the most from 2017 is Sampletank 3. But wait...I did the promo where if you buy a MIDI controller, you get Sampletank 3 for free. So I did that. Well, the MIDI controller was a piece of crap, and not worth the $70. I got it thinking I would use it to write music on the go (with my phone). Cheapest piece of crap hardware I've ever bought. Anyway, the Sampletank 3 promotion, still not worth it. I already got Sampletank 2 and found some of the sounds in there inspiring (got that on a $99 promo where it came with all of their VST instruments). Well, I heard the hype, and some of the demos seemed good enough, and I thought it should be a big improvement over Sampletank 2. Oh well... 

The problem I've faced, is that because I haven't had lots of money to spend, I look for the deals, the bargains on "higher end" stuff, thinking that I'll get a bigger bang for my buck. So I accumulate all of this over-hyped stuff, then I miss out on stuff from Sound Dust and other great, affordable developers. This year I've had the resolution to not spend so frivolously. Trying to buy stuff only when I know I need it or will use it, not just because it's on sale.


----------



## mark.warman

N.Caffrey said:


> You must be joking. LASS was my first library, and despite not using it too often I was playing with it yesterday thinking it still holds up really well. CSS, specially in combo with CSSS, is one of the most, if the not the most, realistic string library out there for me.


What are the chances of two people actually buying "Large Amplified Scoring Sitars"?!


----------



## Symfoniq

Polkasound said:


> I deeply regret buying CSS and LASS. They are the most worthless, unusable libraries I ever purchased. I just can't fit them into any of my compositions. Please stay away from those libraries. Do not make the mistake I did. Do not purchase Cowbell Stentando Slaps or Large Amplified Scoring Sitars.



To each his own. CSS is one of the best libraries I've ever purchased. Love CSSS, too. If Alex keeps this up, I could see Cinematic Studio Series being the basis of my template. But again...to each his own. Don't much care for Albion ONE, and others in this thread like it.


----------



## JohnBMears

Symfoniq said:


> To each his own. CSS is one of the best libraries I've ever purchased. Love CSSS, too. If Alex keeps this up, I could see Cinematic Studio Series being the basis of my template. But again...to each his own. Don't much care for Albion ONE, and others in this thread like it.



Are you guys reading the ENTIRE post? It's clearly a joke.


----------



## N.Caffrey

JohnBMears said:


> Are you guys reading the ENTIRE post? It's clearly a joke.


Holy.. I'm really embarrassed now. How did I miss it?!


----------



## Alex Fraser

Lol, read Polkasound’s post again!
Edit: Beat. He got me for a minute too..


----------



## Emmanuel Rousseau

Note : When you say something negative about Cinematic Studio Strings on Vi-Control, people don't even bother to read the end of the post (and get the joke) before jumping at you. 

Edit : Ok, problem solved ^^
Edit 2 : Not solved for everyone ^^


----------



## reddognoyz

Polkasound said:


> I deeply regret buying CSS and LASS. They are the most worthless, unusable libraries I ever purchased. I just can't fit them into any of my compositions. Please stay away from those libraries. Do not make the mistake I did. Do not purchase Cowbell Stentando Slaps or Large Amplified Scoring Sitars.



I would requalify that as " the most worthless, unusable libraries I ever purchased... *for me*" 

LASS has been a go-to for me for years, I use the auto arranged legato trems and sordinos all the time, and the spicattos when I want some bite in the sound. Junkie XL has uses CSS version one, and I think he's done pretty well with it.

Different strokes for different folks you know? One man's useless is another's bread and butter. 

I have an enormous slag heap of unused or underutilized sounds and libraries. However, if I purchase a $400 library that I find a few good sounds in, or even one gem(for me), I feel that the purchase was worthwhile. An example would be EW's FabFour. I thought the demos were brilliant, I still do, but I couldn't do a damn thing with any of it, EXCEPT 
the blackbird guitar, and just one articulation at that, but it became the signature sound for a series I scored and it is sooo well recorded and blends so well with the rest of my underscore, it is my first go-to for a little acoustic guitar flavor. The rest of the library sits up in the attic. Every now and then I bring it down, dust it off, and remind myself that it isn't really for me.....


----------



## Sears Poncho

Polkasound said:


> Large Amplified Scoring Sitars.


That actually sounds kinda awesome!


----------



## Maxime Luft

reddognoyz said:


> I would requalify that as " the most worthless, unusable libraries I ever purchased... *for me*"
> 
> LASS has been a go-to for me for years, I use the auto arranged legato trems and sordinos all the time, and the spicattos when I want some bite in the sound. Junkie XL has uses CSS version one, and I think he's done pretty well with it.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks you know? One man's useless is another's bread and butter.
> 
> I have an enormous slag heap of unused or underutilized sounds and libraries. However, if I purchase a $400 library that I find a few good sounds in, or even one gem(for me), I feel that the purchase was worthwhile. An example would be EW's FabFour. I thought the demos were brilliant, I still do, but I couldn't do a damn thing with any of it, EXCEPT
> the blackbird guitar, and just one articulation at that, but it became the signature sound for a series I scored and it is sooo well recorded and blends so well with the rest of my underscore, it is my first go-to for a little acoustic guitar flavor. The rest of the library sits up in the attic. Every now and then I bring it down, dust it off, and remind myself that it isn't really for me.....



And you expect that we_* "*also" _read your post entirely? It seems you missed the joke here !

Unless you really mean that JunkieXL has done pretty well with Cowbell stentando slaps


----------



## synthpunk

I use it quite a bit still for drones and atmospheres, Do you have The Unfinished patch set for it ?



Alex Fraser said:


> True. Clearly folk weren’t really into it so priorities shifted. It’s a pretty complete collection as is though. I’ll be (trying to) use it for a long while yet. Definitely worth a Spitfire sale plunge.
> 
> Anyway, this is a moan thread, so..


----------



## misterfincher23

Sears Poncho said:


> That actually sounds kinda awesome!



Polkasounds problem is that it is recorded in poor mono sound and in an unechoic chamber. Not usable for an epic approach.


----------



## Alex Fraser

synthpunk said:


> I use it quite a bit still for drones and atmospheres, Do you have The Unfinished patch set for it ?


Nope. <visits Spitfire site>


----------



## soundbylaura

My worst is the Sample Logic Try Pack. I even got it on sale but wow there is nothing in there for me.

8Dio Spirit Flute - phrases are great! Unless it's the same phrase over and over and over and over and over.


----------



## VinRice

Sonokinetic Maximo


----------



## sostenuto

Dang !! Youse guys are killing me after huge Sonokinetic , (some Heavyocity) buys over holidays.


----------



## kimarnesen

sostenuto said:


> Dang !! Youse guys are killing me after huge Sonokinetic , (some Heavyocity) buys over holidays.



Well, it ends up quite typically, that every library in the world has disappointed at least one person. It shouldn't matter if you enjoy them.


----------



## NYC Composer

reddognoyz said:


> I would requalify that as " the most worthless, unusable libraries I ever purchased... *for me*"
> 
> LASS has been a go-to for me for years, I use the auto arranged legato trems and sordinos all the time, and the spicattos when I want some bite in the sound. Junkie XL has uses CSS version one, and I think he's done pretty well with it.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks you know? One man's useless is another's bread and butter.
> 
> I have an enormous slag heap of unused or underutilized sounds and libraries. However, if I purchase a $400 library that I find a few good sounds in, or even one gem(for me), I feel that the purchase was worthwhile. An example would be EW's FabFour. I thought the demos were brilliant, I still do, but I couldn't do a damn thing with any of it, EXCEPT
> the blackbird guitar, and just one articulation at that, but it became the signature sound for a series I scored and it is sooo well recorded and blends so well with the rest of my underscore, it is my first go-to for a little acoustic guitar flavor. The rest of the library sits up in the attic. Every now and then I bring it down, dust it off, and remind myself that it isn't really for me.....


 Check out the octave guitar stabs in Getting Better guitars. Quite useful actually. Also the Ticket to Ride guitar.


----------



## sostenuto

kimarnesen said:


> Well, it ends up quite typically, that every library in the world has disappointed at least one person. It shouldn't matter if you enjoy them.



Ha ha! For sure, but still little twinges when several pricey ones get 'ripped'  
Maybe reacted from most recent choices, as also have few Albion(s), eDNA01, and not concerned ......


----------



## blougui

Polkasound said:


> I deeply regret buying CSS and LASS. They are the most worthless, unusable libraries I ever purchased. I just can't fit them into any of my compositions. Please stay away from those libraries. Do not make the mistake I did. Do not purchase Cowbell Stentando Slaps or Large Amplified Scoring Sitars.


Excellent


----------



## synthpunk

N


----------



## VgsA

Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra when it was on sale... I thought it would be cool, but the lack of homogeneity within the collection (patches), the lack of releases on the strings, the overall tone, wrong labeling on some patches/articulations... I expected more from the whole package. (Let's not mention the downloading method). It's one of those that I wanted to like, I still think it has potential, but nope.


----------



## windyweekend

Jack Weaver said:


> I'd love to have back the brain cells that are apparently missing that caused me to buy Spitfire Phobos.
> 
> .


Shame to hear this for some folks. I've used it wonderfully on a couple of scores and have fallen in love with it. Mix it with Dark Zebra and it becomes something else. Like any brush, it's got to be used on the right paintings.


----------



## kitekrazy

Surely there is someone who falls for the annual Komplete upgrades.


----------



## zvenx

robgb said:


> I'm curious to know why you feel this way. I haven't used it but have heard good things about it.


I have never liked the sound.. I know others disagree. Rsp


----------



## bigcat1969

Well I skipped one KU update and got the next (9 to 11) on the upgrade sale and I'm pretty happy with the new pianos, Session Horns Pro, Cuba and India are fun but wouldn't have bought separately, the Symphony Essentials are actually kind of good in the too big sections way when you want too big a section and the solo instruments aren't bad. And also a reminder not to buy the full versions of Symphony! But yeah upgrading full price every time not so much...


----------



## Darren Durann

Maxime Luft said:


> Unless you really mean that JunkieXL has done pretty well with Cowbell stentando slaps



I don't think he's done particularly well with anything. Just my opinion. May I strongly recommend listening to Morricone, Williams, and yes, Zimmer instead? Howard Shore, Horner....(anyone else feel free to jump in).

To the member who wanted a go to orchestral library...dude, just go Composer Cloud until you're 100% sure you want to make music (and the reasons why...otherwise you'll buy a $700 string library and ask yourself "do I _really_ plan on doing this when it becomes NOT fun?"). The libraries (especially the Hollywood and to a lesser degree the Stormdrums) are still used by the pros (I know, I get paid myself...though not even in the same stratosphere as the men mentioned above).

My first purchase outside of the Hollywoods was Albion I...and that's been mentioned. I'd sell that if I could.


----------



## StillLife

Cinestrings Solo. I actually think it sounds quite good, and the ensemble is good too, but I had trouble with its playability from the beginning and therefore did not use it. After a while I got the amazing Joshua Bell Violin, so now I regret buying Cinestrings Solo even more, because I think I will never use it, given the sound quality AND very good playability of ''the Bell'.


----------



## bigcat1969

As head developer, gofer and dishwasher here at 7DietyExpectorateHammerAmductions I am appealed err I applaud err I am appalled that Polkasound would include our superb libraries Cowbell Stentando Slaps and Large Amplified Scoring Sitars in this list of disrepute. I invite anyone to listen to the deeply sampled (8) demonstration Kontakt patch below which represents thousands of manseconds and cutting edge effects (Kontakt skreamer and amp) to hear the obvious quality of Large Amplified Scoring Sitars! LASS is outstanding in its field (left beyond the bleachers) as anyone who googles 'LASS for Kontakt' can see by all the positive reviews. Also all bigcat instruments stink and I regret every penny I've spent on them.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/rslupdgtk1uplll/Large_Amplified_Scoring_Sitars.zip

Creative Commons Attribution - Chinpen from Freesound

Good Day! I said Good Day.


----------



## NYC Composer

kitekrazy said:


> Surely there is someone who falls for the annual Komplete upgrades.


Started at 2, skipped 3 and 4, upgraded at 5, skipped 6 and 7, updated at 8, that’s where I am now. Besides the price, feeding all those disks in to upgrade was daunting.

I’d have to say that though I don’t go with many updates, No regrets whatsoever about Komplete. I’ve used it a ton. Kontakt (obviously), Massive, Reaktor, FM8, B4 (now Vintage Organs), Abbey Road Drums and Studio Drummer. Damage is great, but I bought that before.


----------



## MillsMixx

X-Bassist said:


> I’m with you on most of this, but really thought Rhythmology would be useful, no? Reminds me of my most disappointing purchase- *Sonokinetics Cappricio*, the phrases don’t always switch smoothly and have limited variety- with zero dynamics. Volume yes, dynamics no. Very limited. Never got Rhythmology but it sounds good. I think I’m just done using phrase libraries, the limitations for the price is just to great (even on sale).


I think the reason why I don't care much for rhythmology it's because I have so many other loop libraries that it was just an impulse purchase and total overkill for me. and after awhile sample logic all sounds the same. It's probably a library I will come to like but I just haven't spent enough time with it yet.


----------



## X-Bassist

MillsMixx said:


> I think the reason why I don't care much for rhythmology it's because I have so many other loop libraries that it was just an impulse purchase and total overkill for me. and after awhile sample logic all sounds the same. It's probably a library I will come to like but I just haven't spent enough time with it yet.



I get what your saying and have heard it before from a few regulars here. I have waterharp and the original cinematic guitars and really like them both, but many SL products can sound the same out of the box - could be the liberal use of Kontakt effects that work well, but have always sounded the same. With Rhythmology the trick seems to be finding the right sound out of the thousands, which would lead me to go through them and pick favorites, which would also take a while.

More targeted libraries (like Cinebrass or HZ Percussion) do seem easier to deal with quickly and stick into a templete without having to audition every patch.


----------



## jtnyc

MillsMixx said:


> and after awhile sample logic all sounds the same.



For sure. With the exception of a few, I can rarely tell the difference between their products. Although the Rhythmology UI looks really cool and fun to use, I skipped it because the content sounded unoriginal and dated. If it allowed you to import your own audio, I'd but it with no content included.


----------



## SyMTiK

Darren Durann said:


> To the member who wanted a go to orchestral library...dude, just go Composer Cloud until you're 100% sure you want to make music (and the reasons why...otherwise you'll buy a $700 string library and ask yourself "do I _really_ plan on doing this when it becomes NOT fun?"). The libraries (especially the Hollywood and to a lesser degree the Stormdrums) are still used by the pros (I know, I get paid myself...though not even in the same stratosphere as the men mentioned above).
> 
> My first purchase outside of the Hollywoods was Albion I...and that's been mentioned. I'd sell that if I could.



I got Composer Cloud last year when I built my new computer, and was working with Albion I before that. Composer Cloud is a no brainer for anyone honestly unless you either already own a fair amount of East West stuff or already own plenty of other orchestra libraries. I think its great that such a massive collection of great instruments is available for that fair of a deal. Especially as a student, 15 dollars a month for Composer Cloud X with the extra mic position is an incredible deal. Gives you all the tools you need to create truly professional level material.


----------



## Darren Durann

SyMTiK said:


> I got Composer Cloud last year when I built my new computer, and was working with Albion I before that. Composer Cloud is a no brainer for anyone honestly unless you either already own a fair amount of East West stuff or already own plenty of other orchestra libraries. I think its great that such a massive collection of great instruments is available for that fair of a deal. Especially as a student, 15 dollars a month for Composer Cloud X with the extra mic position is an incredible deal. Gives you all the tools you need to create truly professional level material.



The only potentially daunting thing is the learning curve. I mean, sure there's that in SF, Hein, Adagio, etc. But EW can be punishing as hell if you don't read that manual. The bright side is, the rewards are more than worth it.

It still awes me that those libraries have been out for so long, yet are still used by the pros. It says a lot.

At the same time hey, people like collecting, new sources of inspiration, I get that (and I've GOTTEN too much of it). But there are weeds that will come with one's fresh minted rabbit hole(s)....

Uh, wait, that didn't come out right (dying).


----------



## bc3po

jtnyc said:


> Heavyocity Intimate Textures
> 
> The textures are a cool idea, but these recordings are scratchy in a harsh and unpleasing way for my ears. Many of them are also on the busy side for me. The other stuff, the whole processing strings through distortion, compression, gating and sequencing just sounds awful to to me. It just sounds so gimmicky. While I can get some use out of the basic texture patches (so long as I EQ them), I do regret the purchase


Oh man. I actually love this library. It’s specific but have using it a lot.


----------



## SyMTiK

Darren Durann said:


> The only potentially daunting thing is the learning curve. I mean, sure there's that in SF, Hein, Adagio, etc. But EW can be punishing as hell if you don't read that manual. The bright side is, the rewards are more than worth it.
> 
> It still awes me that those libraries have been out for so long, yet are still used by the pros. It says a lot.
> 
> At the same time hey, people like collecting, new sources of inspiration, I get that (and I've GOTTEN too much of it). But there are weeds that will come with one's fresh minted rabbit hole(s)....
> 
> Uh, wait, that didn't come out right (dying).



yeah definitely, the learning curve can be a lot and I can imagine it being quite daunting for a total beginner. It took me a solid week to setup a full template when I first got CC to make something that made sense and worked for me, and it took a while to really understand what all the different variations of the same articulation were used for. The organization/labeling is also a bit weird in the folders (before reading the manual), I had no clue what some of the labels meant on the instruments and that definitely confused me but after reading through the manuals thoroughly, it was well worth it and made more sense. definitely takes a good amount of work to get a realistic sound out of it and understanding how to use the different articulations effectively, but like you said, the results are worth it when you do learn. 

I can still definitely see why Albion and libraries similar are still popular in comparison though particularly for those starting out. for beginners making everything large ensemble patches definitely simplifies everything and makes it less intimidating to start creating music that is "orchestral", but I find it creates the problem of writing in terms of broad picture rather than attention to the finer details of writing, which is why it might not always be the best to start with imo. I found it caused my writing when starting out (particularly for strings) to lack proper motion, and the writing that came out sounded more like piano chords played on a string pad than true parts written for strings. Learning to write for each individual instrument and growing an understanding of the individual instruments within the ensembles helped me to write much more elaborate music that has begun to at least sound like properly orchestrated music (I think)


----------



## Sopranos

sostenuto said:


> Dang !! Youse guys are killing me after huge Sonokinetic , (some Heavyocity) buys over holidays.


Unfortunately, Sonokinetic is simply unusable in Logic/Mac. Great phrases and sound but none of that matters if you can't playback without cracking/artifacts. Too many hoops to jump through to get to a working solution.


----------



## artomatic

Vienna Ensemble Solo Strings 2
Big Fish Audio - Vintage Horns 2

8Dio Agitato Sordino Strings
Spitfire Solo Strings


----------



## Replicant

Eclipse by Wide Blue Sound.

It's pretty useless.


----------



## sostenuto

Sopranos said:


> Unfortunately, Sonokinetic is simply unusable in Logic/Mac. Great phrases and sound but none of that matters if you can't playback without cracking/artifacts. Too many hoops to jump through to get to a working solution.



Need to pay closer attention here ..... PC/Win10 Pro/Reaper User. Maybe not same issues.


----------



## reddognoyz

Maxime Luft said:


> And you expect that we_* "*also" _read your post entirely? It seems you missed the joke here !
> 
> Unless you really mean that JunkieXL has done pretty well with Cowbell stentando slaps




ha ha guilty as charged!! it was early and I am slow on the uptake : )


----------



## reddognoyz

a quite undissapointing library. HZ percussion pro! I keep finding new ways to use it and it seems to fit into all sorts of tracks unexpectedly. I was doing a rock track today for a pitch on a futuristic robot car in the desert thing. I I was fiddling about with it and found this bucket hit kinda sound that just sat great in the mix and elevated the track out of a straight rock thing into something more. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose sometimes you win big.


----------



## FriFlo

Sovereign said:


> VSL Synchron strings.


I have to second that ... not that it's totally bad, no! I have to admit, I expected/hoped quite a lot from it, so ... from high altitudes one can fall pretty deep!
It is to early to judge it completely, as it is still an unfinished library with a missing piece of software at the moment. But what I get from the time I spent with the finished parts and what I have seen about the incoming software, I am afraid, my hope for this being anywhere close to what I had hoped for are very low! There is hope it can become better, especially with some rethinking, re-editing and some further volumes delivering, where this Vol one has not. But I don't perceive any voices from Vienna with that kind of attitude, so ... let's see ...


----------



## joebaggan

Embertone solo strings (Friedlander etc.) were disappointing for me. Despite the praise I heard from others, it sounded thin to me and has a very fat memory footprint. LASS solo strings won me over with their distinctiveness and quick loading, so I likely won't get much more use out of Embertone.


----------



## stonzthro

synthpunk said:


> That and the promised development never materialized as they went on to there next 25 products.


8Dio has made more abandonware (for me) than any of the other developers I've paid a respectable amount of money to (I don't buy any of their libraries any more).

Now, to answer the question the winner/loser for me is Kwaya - I've tried to use that library so many times and end up having to render out the individual samples and manipulate the audio. The demos were um... less that stellar so that should have told me, but hey - there really isn't anything else on the market right now. I still hope there will be an update that will magically fix this jalopy - maybe someday...


----------



## JTJohnson

Heavyocity Scoring Guitars


----------



## Darren Durann

SyMTiK said:


> yeah definitely, the learning curve can be a lot and I can imagine it being quite daunting for a total beginner. It took me a solid week to setup a full template when I first got CC to make something that made sense and worked for me, and it took a while to really understand what all the different variations of the same articulation were used for. The organization/labeling is also a bit weird in the folders (before reading the manual), I had no clue what some of the labels meant on the instruments and that definitely confused me but after reading through the manuals thoroughly, it was well worth it and made more sense. definitely takes a good amount of work to get a realistic sound out of it and understanding how to use the different articulations effectively, but like you said, the results are worth it when you do learn.
> 
> I can still definitely see why Albion and libraries similar are still popular in comparison though particularly for those starting out. for beginners making everything large ensemble patches definitely simplifies everything and makes it less intimidating to start creating music that is "orchestral", but I find it creates the problem of writing in terms of broad picture rather than attention to the finer details of writing, which is why it might not always be the best to start with imo. I found it caused my writing when starting out (particularly for strings) to lack proper motion, and the writing that came out sounded more like piano chords played on a string pad than true parts written for strings. Learning to write for each individual instrument and growing an understanding of the individual instruments within the ensembles helped me to write much more elaborate music that has begun to at least sound like properly orchestrated music (I think)



Interesting post! I've heard from other people who basically started with Albion One that, once they started working with other, more flexible, dry, and specifically articulate libraries they immediately noticed the difference in the strings. Albion One is NOT the library one wants if, say, the intention is to exploit the huge range of stringed instruments; it's really just a quick solution to jot down your inspired moments.

Again...if we knock half the price off A1 we have a terrific way for beginners, the fact that the effects are baked in can be to a novice composer's advantage, and might make the way for the young composer to first hear his or her ideas. I believe that would make the library even less expensive for students as well, which is nearly ideal imo.

I simply wouldn't recommend A1 to people for anything but the above, though the woodwind legati and abovemention spicc/stacc patches can be made into interesting things all on their own. They're the stand outs from the entire library. But they ain't worth 440 US. No.


----------



## PeterN

Darren Durann said:


> Interesting post! I've heard from other people who basically started with Albion One that, once they started working with other, more flexible, dry, and specifically articulate libraries they immediately noticed the difference in the strings.



I used to find the Albion One sound too sophisticated for my personal taste, until I doubled it with - shall we say - cheaper libraries, that are more dry and have less sophisticated sound. Even the main string library in Logic Pro can do that. I dont have Cinematic Studio Strings, but I think I can come pretty damn close to their sound by doubling AO with, say, Kontakt Factory Library strings. Even, I think that this could be "secret" behind CSS success - that guy Alex figured out the same, and doubled a sophisticated sound with a more less sophisticated sound. Voila. Yes, talking mainly about strings here.


----------



## Alex Fraser

Darren Durann said:


> Interesting post! I've heard from other people who basically started with Albion One that, once they started working with other, more flexible, dry, and specifically articulate libraries they immediately noticed the difference in the strings. Albion One is NOT the library one wants if, say, the intention is to exploit the huge range of stringed instruments; it's really just a quick solution to jot down your inspired moments.
> 
> Again...if we knock half the price off A1 we have a terrific way for beginners, the fact that the effects are baked in can be to a novice composer's advantage, and might make the way for the young composer to first hear his or her ideas. I believe that would make the library even less expensive for students as well, which is nearly ideal imo.
> 
> I simply wouldn't recommend A1 to people for anything but the above, though the woodwind legati and abovemention spicc/stacc patches can be made into interesting things all on their own. They're the stand outs from the entire library. But they ain't worth 440 US. No.


Some good points. I’d like to add a “third” use for Albion One and other ensemble type libraries: They’re great for the sort of productions that don’t need the full orchestral treatment, especially if the project calls for more of an underscore type vibe.

I often think folks buy A1 thinking it’s something it isn’t. IMO, it’s a tool that’s aimed at a certain type of workflow and “speedy” production. If you want to learn detailed mockups, then like others have suggested, CC cloud looks amazing.


----------



## Sovereign

PeterN said:


> I used to find the Albion One sound too sophisticated for my personal taste, until I doubled it with - shall we say - cheaper libraries, that are more dry and have less sophisticated sound. Even the main string library in Logic Pro can do that. I dont have Cinematic Studio Strings, but I think I can come pretty damn close to their sound by doubling AO with, say, Kontakt Factory Library strings. Even, I think that this could be "secret" behind CSS success - that guy Alex figured out the same, and doubled a sophisticated sound with a more less sophisticated sound. Voila. Yes, talking mainly about strings here.


A sophisticated sound? Doubled with a more less sophisticated sound? Quite frankly this doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## PeterN

Sovereign said:


> A sophisticated sound? Doubled with a more less sophisticated sound? Quite frankly this doesn't make any sense to me.



Yea, well, if u cant figure it out the point, who cares, mate.


----------



## Sovereign

PeterN said:


> Yea, well, if u cant figure it out the point, who cares, mate.


The point is you have no point, you're talking gibberish.


----------



## PeterN

Heh


----------



## rottoy

PeterN said:


> Even, I think that this could be "secret" behind CSS success - that guy Alex figured out the same, and doubled a sophisticated sound with a more less sophisticated sound. Voila. Yes, talking mainly about strings here.


The "secret" to the success of CSS is more along the lines of; Smaller section sizes, great players, good programming.


----------



## PeterN

rottoy said:


> The "secret" to the success of CSS is more along the lines of; Smaller section sizes, great players, good programming.



Nah, I think he has combined wet and dry and some very fine tuned frequencies and some more loose. Like a chef finding the right recipe here.

But this another topic maybe.


----------



## rottoy

PeterN said:


> Nah, I think he has combines wet and dry and some very fine tuned frequencies and some more loose. Like a chef finding the right recipe here.
> 
> But this another topic maybe.


Naturally the choice of mics and the placement factors in as well. Like you said, we're veering off topic here.


----------



## Erick - BVA

bigcat1969 said:


> Well I skipped one KU update and got the next (9 to 11) on the upgrade sale and I'm pretty happy with the new pianos, Session Horns Pro, Cuba and India are fun but wouldn't have bought separately, the Symphony Essentials are actually kind of good in the too big sections way when you want too big a section and the solo instruments aren't bad. And also a reminder not to buy the full versions of Symphony! But yeah upgrading full price every time not so much...



I'm really not a fan of the Symphony essentials. They sound so synthetic to me. But I still don't regret my upgrade from KU10 to 11.


----------



## SyMTiK

PeterN said:


> I used to find the Albion One sound too sophisticated for my personal taste, until I doubled it with - shall we say - cheaper libraries, that are more dry and have less sophisticated sound. Even the main string library in Logic Pro can do that. I dont have Cinematic Studio Strings, but I think I can come pretty damn close to their sound by doubling AO with, say, Kontakt Factory Library strings. Even, I think that this could be "secret" behind CSS success - that guy Alex figured out the same, and doubled a sophisticated sound with a more less sophisticated sound. Voila. Yes, talking mainly about strings here.



I dont know if i would necessarily say Albion One sounded “sophisticated” to me, rather the opposite. I thought the original Albion sounded sophisticated because of its very distinct sound, it had its own specific detailed sound characteristics. Albion One rather sounded almost too “perfect”, like almost stereotypically what strings and brass should sound like, and thus felt kinda soulless to my ears. Its not necessarily terrible, I just dont think its as realistic and great as it once was. Had they just taken the style and sound of the original and just recorded more loud dynamics i would have been much happier, didnt like that everything felt and sounded so different.


----------



## bc3po

Sovereign said:


> The point is you have no point, you're talking gibberish.





Sovereign said:


> A sophisticated sound? Doubled with a more less sophisticated sound? Quite frankly this doesn't make any sense to me.


you more less missed the point


----------



## PeterN

SyMTiK said:


> I dont know if i would necessarily say Albion One sounded “sophisticated” to me, rather the opposite. I thought the original Albion sounded sophisticated because of its very distinct sound, it had its own specific detailed sound characteristics. Albion One rather sounded almost too “perfect”, like almost stereotypically what strings and brass should sound like, and thus felt kinda soulless to my ears. Its not necessarily terrible, I just dont think its as realistic and great as it once was. Had they just taken the style and sound of the original and just recorded more loud dynamics i would have been much happier, didnt like that everything felt and sounded so different.



You got it, but thats what I meant by sophisticated. Try doubling them with another library - this is no rocket science, common stuff. My tool - and not saying this has to be anyone elses tool - is doubling them with Kontakt Factory Library (with higher volume on that library), the Logic Pro X library, and/or even the strings from The Orchestra, (which are not, well, praised on their own) - worked well. To get the sound I wanted, Put a dry, less refined, soaring sound under them and they are great. Experiment. Well, as usual, personal taste, aint it.


----------



## SyMTiK

PeterN said:


> You got it, but thats what I meant by sophisticated. Try doubling them with another library - this is no rocket science, common stuff. My tool - and not saying this has to be anyone elses tool - is doubling them with Kontakt Factory Library (with higher volume on that library), the Logic Pro X library, and/or even the strings from The Orchestra, (which are not, well, praised on their own) - worked well. To get the sound I wanted, Put a dry, less refined, soaring sound under them and they are great. Experiment. Well, as usual, personal taste, aint it.



I commonly double it with EW Hollywood Orchestra, i was more just saying im not a fan of the sound on its own. Definitely works great as a layer though. But for 450 dollars I expected a bit more than a layering tool is all.


----------



## Darren Durann

SyMTiK said:


> I commonly double it with EW Hollywood Orchestra, i was more just saying im not a fan of the sound on its own. Definitely works great as a layer though. But for 450 dollars I expected a bit more than a layering tool is all.



I used to do that with Alb1...then I realized I could just use Hollywood Strings, up the dynamic control to full throttle, and have all the fullness I could ask for.

I must admit though, getting Iceni to fit in a mix can be really gratifying, not just because of the huge room sound hurdle, but because it sounds so damn GOOD when it comes to rugged low woods and strings! At least to me.

However, I can't count how many times I had to delete the instrument because it would sound so far away in a mix compared to the Hollywood and Hein libraries.


----------



## wst3

Interesting to see other folks reactions to some of the libraries I own.

I think I can say that I've not yet been disappointed by any of my purchases so much as I have outgrown them. But I'm generally the last guy to buy some of these, fearing just that. While that has saved me some disappointment, it has also meant I went without better tools purely out of a sense that they wouldn't be as good as they are.

I have had frustrating purchases! I started out with only individual instrument type libraries. I picked up CineOrch and loved the way it glued things together. So I added Albion 1 and after a couple weeks stopped using it. I just could not get anything to sound good.

I kept hearing other folks who used it, and Orchestral Essentials vol 1 and figured in for a penny, so I picked up OE1, with the same result. After collecting dust for over a year I finally went back, and now I have strategies to make use of both of them. I still can't create a track using only one or the other (or both), I need the individual instruments to "think". But I've added OE2, Swing, and Swing More to my tool box and I'm really quite happy with them all. They aren't replacements, but they are useful.

And like I said, I've outgrown libraries. The one that pops to mind is 8Dio Solo Violin Designer, it was great fun for a few months, but I realized I was working quite a bit harder to piece together phrases for not a lot of benefit. There are others, I'm sure, but I can't remember them - which says something.


----------



## Kony

SyMTiK said:


> I thought the original Albion sounded sophisticated because of its very distinct sound, it had its own specific detailed sound characteristics.


I wish Spitfire would make the original Albion available to buy - they could/should have a legacy section on their shop...?


----------



## SyMTiK

Kony said:


> I wish Spitfire would make the original Albion available to buy - they could/should have a legacy section on their shop...?



If I remember correctly I believe One came with legacy patches, but i cant remember if it came with all of them (i dont think it does, just a few are included i think, sadly not near my computer atm to check) I had kept the original version anyways.


----------



## Kony

SyMTiK said:


> If I remember correctly I believe One came with legacy patches, but i cant remember if it came with all of them (i dont think it does, just a few are included i think, sadly not near my computer atm to check) I had kept the original version anyways.


Thanks - would be good to know which legacy patches remained


----------



## Garry

Here you go:

Brass high/low/mid
Piano
String high/low
Woods high/low
COG patches 
brass high/mid/low
piano
strings: high/low
woods high/low

Individual patches 
Brass high, mid, low
Piano (FX Cluster, FX Misc, short (legacy, mute, ring)
Strings 
(high (FX1,2,3; long CS octave, ostinatem (short, spic) short octave)
low: FX1,2; long, ostinatem (brush, spic) short

Woods
High: FX 1,2,3, short
Low: FX 1,2, short


Timemachines patches
brass: high/mid/low
piano
strings: high/low
woods: high/low


----------



## kitekrazy

Seems like there is no love for Sampletank instruments. I've thought about getting Miroslav 2 when it really gets reduced. Is the dislike because most of you have higher end libraries? Does it work only used by itself?


----------



## AllanH

kitekrazy said:


> Seems like there is no love for Sampletank instruments. I've thought about getting Miroslav 2 when it really gets reduced. Is the dislike because most of you have higher end libraries? Does it work only used by itself?



A couple of random comments: The amount of content in ST3 for the money is excellent. There's a huge collection of instruments and misc. sounds; some excellent and some much less so. I really like the sound of Miroslav 2 (separate purchase), but I also believe the library suffers from being programmed to the ST3 infrastructure as opposed to the modern orchestral standards exemplified by Kontakt or Play (intrabar CC control of dynamics, etc.)

In comparison to e.g. EW Hollywood Orchestra I find Hollywood Orchestra far more flexible. Here's a review I wrote a long time ago, right after getting Miroslav 2. https://vi-control.net/community/threads/miroslav-philharmonik-2-reviews.50437/#post-3921851

I hope I don't get too much grief for the following: If Miroslav 2 was programmed to Kontakt or Play and had multiple mic positions, I would probably prefer it to CSS (by example). It's just very difficult to get the instrument to "sing" as it is.


----------



## kimarnesen

Not looking forward to the revenge thread “Most disappointing use of our library”


----------



## pderbidge

kitekrazy said:


> Seems like there is no love for Sampletank instruments. I've thought about getting Miroslav 2 when it really gets reduced. Is the dislike because most of you have higher end libraries? Does it work only used by itself?


ST3 actually has some good stuff in it if you're comparing it to say the factory content in Kontakt. For the $100 upgrade price I paid from ST2 I can't complain. As a stand alone library for someone not ready to jump into Komplete or Komplete ultimate or another pricier rompler then I think it's decent. The competition is fierce though and since I already have Komplete Ultimate and a bunch of more deeply sampled instruments for Kontakt I don't really reach for it.


----------



## Kony

Garry said:


> Here you go:
> 
> Brass high/low/mid
> Piano
> String high/low
> Woods high/low
> COG patches
> brass high/mid/low
> piano
> strings: high/low
> woods high/low
> 
> Individual patches
> Brass high, mid, low
> Piano (FX Cluster, FX Misc, short (legacy, mute, ring)
> Strings
> (high (FX1,2,3; long CS octave, ostinatem (short, spic) short octave)
> low: FX1,2; long, ostinatem (brush, spic) short
> 
> Woods
> High: FX 1,2,3, short
> Low: FX 1,2, short
> 
> 
> Timemachines patches
> brass: high/mid/low
> piano
> strings: high/low
> woods: high/low


Thanks for that Garry. I subsequently realised there is a full list on their website. 

Generally speaking, it would be nice to have the option to buy the full legacy version....


----------



## Casiquire

I had no disappointing library purchases in 2017. In fact my purchases are usually very well-researched, my last disappointing ones were EWQL's Solo Violin (what in the world IS that?!) and Voices of Passion. So it's been a few years.


----------



## J-M

kimarnesen said:


> Not looking forward to the revenge thread “Most disappointing use of our library”



"Incredible. Person x has our best tools to make music and still the end result is hilariously bad. Please, never buy our samples again."


----------



## rottoy

kimarnesen said:


> Not looking forward to the revenge thread “Most disappointing use of our library”


Hahahah, now I want this thread to materialize.


----------



## Darren Durann

You know...last library I bought was the Bernard Herrmann, probably my favorite library ever (duh..you think?  ). So I really haven't been buying much to be disappointed in.

In fact, as dubious as this will understandably sound, I'm grabbing LCO if it ever goes on sale and that will be it outside of upgrades for a long time, really.

I just realized I went six months without buying a library, and concurrently my bank account is doing great.

Gee, do ya think there's a connection?


----------



## Marko Zirkovich

Darren Durann said:


> I just realized I went six months without buying a library, and concurrently my bank account is doing great.
> 
> Gee, do ya think there's a connection?



Nope. Impossible. There can't be. It definitely must be something else.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Could it also be that people expect too much from libraries? Like a violinist buying a better violin thinking he won't need to do as much practicing anymore.


----------



## Symfoniq

Guy Bacos said:


> Could it also be that people expect too much from libraries? Like a violinist buying a better violin thinking he won't need to do as much practicing anymore.



Sometimes, perhaps.

But it's also possible to buy a new violin that's worse than the one you already had. Especially when you can't demo it first.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Symfoniq said:


> Sometimes, perhaps.
> 
> But it's also possible to buy a new violin that's worse than the one you already had. Especially when you can't demo it first.



Usually doesn't a violinist try out the instrument before buying it? Or did I misunderstood?


----------



## Symfoniq

Guy Bacos said:


> Usually doesn't a violinist try out the instrument before buying it? Or did I misunderstood?



Substitute "sample library" for "violin."

My point is that you're right, there will always be people who have unrealistic expectations. Sometimes, though, people just expect a new library to do something better than their current library, but it is actually worse than their current library. This is doubly frustrating when (unlike the violin) you can't demo the sample library first.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Would be cool if there was a free 2 or 5 day trial for all libraries, with a few limitations. That's dreaming I guess.


----------



## Pablocrespo

Guy Bacos said:


> Would be cool if there was a free 2 or 5 day trial for all libraries, with a few limitations. That's dreaming I guess.



Or we could sell the violin if we don’t like it?


----------



## Darren Durann

Pablocrespo said:


> Or we could sell the violin if we don’t like it?



Well, you can do that with the Chris Hein. However, I wouldn't advise getting rid of that. No.


----------



## Casiquire

kimarnesen said:


> Not looking forward to the revenge thread “Most disappointing use of our library”



Oh I have my acceptance speech prepared.


----------



## Guy Bacos

Pablocrespo said:


> Or we could sell the violin if we don’t like it?



We'll probably see Amazon doing this soon.


----------



## dpasdernick

VgsA said:


> Kirk Hunter Diamond Orchestra when it was on sale... I thought it would be cool, but the lack of homogeneity within the collection (patches), the lack of releases on the strings, the overall tone, wrong labeling on some patches/articulations... I expected more from the whole package. (Let's not mention the downloading method). It's one of those that I wanted to like, I still think it has potential, but nope.



Same for me. I installed it and found the programming to be very sloppy in places. I uninstalled it and it sits on my shelf. Other disappointments were my 8DIO buy-a-thon where I bought Basstard, Post Apocalypse Guitars, Hybrid Scoring Tools 2 and Dubstep Vol 1. Never use them. I could buy a house with hardware and software regrets. :(


----------



## dpasdernick

Darren Durann said:


> You know...last library I bought was the Bernard Herrmann, probably my favorite library ever (duh..you think?  ). So I really haven't been buying much to be disappointed in.
> 
> In fact, as dubious as this will understandably sound, I'm grabbing LCO if it ever goes on sale and that will be it outside of upgrades for a long time, really.
> 
> I just realized I went six months without buying a library, and concurrently my bank account is doing great.
> 
> Gee, do ya think there's a connection?



Darren, you can't be in "the club" unless you buy stuff all day long. Good God man put down the "responsibility" and get off the wagon.


----------



## givemenoughrope

errrr..mmm...all of them eventually? I honestly don’t know.


----------



## NYC Composer

Pablocrespo said:


> Or we could sell the violin if we don’t like it?


Now that’s just crazy talk.


----------



## Darren Durann

dpasdernick said:


> Darren, you can't be in "the club" unless you buy stuff all day long. Good God man put down the "responsibility" and get off the wagon.



lol! You're right.


----------



## Truni.Robinson

Eh, I was a did a really quick purchase of deep sampled solo violin. Did not think it was loop based because I was an idiot and didn't read through it enough, just heard the demos. Kind of getting tired that they are trying to make loops into orchestral music.


----------



## reddognoyz

NYC Composer said:


> Check out the octave guitar stabs in Getting Better guitars. Quite useful actually. Also the Ticket to Ride guitar.


thanks I will, I know a lot of this stuff works well, It's a great sounding library, I just haven't found the place for it in my compositions.


----------



## StevenOBrien

Hollywood Strings. It was the first big library I ever bought when I was around 17 years old. Spent months saving up for it. It sounded great, but ended up being almost completely unusable due to the PLAY engine. Waited eagerly for an update to PLAY (I think it was PLAY 4?), and when I got it, it ended up making the performance/crashing even worse. Uninstalled it later that week and never used it again. ~$400 down the drain.


----------



## Akarin

Probably SonuScore The Orchestra. I had a lot of fun with it for the first couple of hours... and then never ended up using it for anything. Kirk Hunter's Virtuoso Ensembles is a close second.


----------



## givemenoughrope

The most disappointing update was EWQLSO to the PLAY version. Even though it SOUNDED much better it promised to load samples outside the 32-bit RAM limit and of course it just didn't. I think after that I just thought about developers differently and decided that you get what you get. If it doesn't deliver as promised but does make you money then fine. Just don't expect the world...or even what they say it is.


----------



## Perry

Greg said:


> Spitfire Phobos. So far from what I thought it was that I uninstalled it and wrote it off as an impulsive disaster buy.


Wow Glad I didn't buy it.Sounded great on the Demo.They always do.


----------



## Vincent Jones

Spitfire Phobos....total waste of money...and I love spitfire stuff


----------



## Perry

Sopranos said:


> Unfortunately, Sonikenetic libraries let me down... and I purchased several over the holiday sale.
> 
> The cracking between chords on playback makes them virtually unusable for me. And I'm on a modern Mac with relatively high specs and even using lite. And plenty high buffer, etc.
> 
> Just not worth it at all in this case.



I'm sorry about your Sonikenetic libraries.I'm using Maximo as I speak and I love it.I use Ostinato strings,Brass,Also Minimal.I have an old 2012 Mini Mac with 16 gig, I5 processor. I always use at least 16 Kontakt Inst. I would check all connections USB and otherwise I also use TRS on everything. I would Unplug USB and then plug back in.I know it sounds stupid. Its worth a try.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

givemenoughrope said:


> The most disappointing update was EWQLSO to the PLAY version. Even though it SOUNDED much better it promised to load samples outside the 32-bit RAM limit and of course it just didn't. I think after that I just thought about developers differently and decided that you get what you get. If it doesn't deliver as promised but does make you money then fine. Just don't expect the world...or even what they say it is.



Are you saying you preferred the old 32bit NI version? Play is light years ahead of that .


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

StevenOBrien said:


> Hollywood Strings. It was the first big library I ever bought when I was around 17 years old. Spent months saving up for it. It sounded great, but ended up being almost completely unusable due to the PLAY engine. Waited eagerly for an update to PLAY (I think it was PLAY 4?), and when I got it, it ended up making the performance/crashing even worse. Uninstalled it later that week and never used it again. ~$400 down the drain.



I always find it odd hearing this type of thing about EW. I absolutely love Play, and HS is a staple for nearly all of my orchestral cues...since they first came out. I must be lucky, I've never had an issue with Play whatsoever.


----------



## Midihead

Someone start a thread stating the BEST library purchase. All this negative energy is depressing.


----------



## simmo75

Spitfire Phobos for me, what a complete waste of my money and a great concept.
They should open up so we can use our own samples as it seems like they won’t be developing it any further.


----------



## givemenoughrope

Wolfie2112 said:


> Are you saying you preferred the old 32bit NI version? Play is light years ahead of that .



No no...just at the time they promised the RAM feature. It’s worked fine for a while for me now...although I only use SD2 and the old EW Perc section.


----------



## PaulieDC

Midihead said:


> Someone start a thread stating the BEST library purchase. All this negative energy is depressing.


Amen! Was about to say the same thing! I'd like to know what are the favorite parts of EWHO or Berlin Strings/Brass or what are the best VSL libraries for the money they charge. Stuff like that there.


----------



## GtrString

I have one. Epic Drums from BigFish. Actually I loved the sounds of it, but then I read the EULA, which stated that I couldn't use it for production music, which was exactly the reason I bought it. Bummer, should have read the small letters beforehand. Never dared to get anything from them ever since, but lesson learned.


----------



## Midihead

PaulieDC said:


> Amen! Was about to say the same thing! I'd like to know what are the favorite parts of EWHO or Berlin Strings/Brass or what are the best VSL libraries for the money they charge. Stuff like that there.


Right? We're all going to be subjective in our reasoning for liking or disliking a product. As a patch designer myself, I would be horrified if one of my products was getting destroyed because it didn't meet the needs of the user. Besides, I feel like talking about the tools that help inspire your creative flow, and why, is much more productive to discuss!


----------



## N.Caffrey

I'm surprised to see so many dislikes for SF Phobos, it didn't sound too bad from the videos, but maybe using it is not so easy...


----------



## PaulieDC

Anyone use Berlin Strings or Brass? Those are amazing demos.


----------



## cucio

kitekrazy said:


> Seems like there is no love for Sampletank instruments. I've thought about getting Miroslav 2 when it really gets reduced. Is the dislike because most of you have higher end libraries? Does it work only used by itself?



The best thing that can be said about MP2 is that you have 14 days after your purchase to return it. Use them wisely and thoroughly.


----------



## Arviwan

One lib i really regretted buying : ImpactSoundWorks Bravura Scoring Brass !
I'm selling it cheap if anyone's interested ...


----------



## kitekrazy

Midihead said:


> Someone start a thread stating the BEST library purchase. All this negative energy is depressing.



This thread is often the result of people listening to others in a best library purchase thread. There is no shortage of oohs and aahs when a new library comes out. Then people buy them and realize it's not for them. No one has acted in a trollish way. I find more wisdom in these threads for those who are impulse buyers.


----------



## kitekrazy

GtrString said:


> I have one. Epic Drums from BigFish. Actually I loved the sounds of it, but then I read the EULA, which stated that I couldn't use it for production music, which was exactly the reason I bought it. Bummer, should have read the small letters beforehand. Never dared to get anything from them ever since, but lesson learned.



There was a thread many moons ago about their EULA. They are the only ones I know who act this way.


----------



## chrisphan

Midihead said:


> Someone start a thread stating the BEST library purchase. All this negative energy is depressing.


Not really. I think every other day on VIC is about the best purchase already


----------



## DocMidi657

Most of 8DIO stuff...total disaster for me. Mucho bucks down the drain... Only company I ever asked for my money back but no way...they kept it. Their demos are always so good yet THE worst playability ever. I tried a few different times with their libraries , now no matter how impressive their sales pitch is...won't take the chance with them. Also a month ago sent a support request to them on how I could get the update for the 1920's something piano I had purchased and never heard back. I'm done.


----------



## SyMTiK

DocMidi657 said:


> Most of 8DIO stuff...total disaster for me. Mucho bucks down the drain... Only company I ever asked for my money back but no way...they kept it. Their demos are always so good yet THE worst playability ever. I tried a few different times with their libraries , now no matter how impressive their sales pitch is...won't take the chance with them. Also a month ago sent a support request to them on how I could get the update for the 1920's something piano I had purchased and never heard back. I'm done.



Man that's too bad to hear, I only own two of their libraries (Jennifer and Laurie solo voice libraries) and they are excellent, I use them all the time. I have heard some complaints about their bigger libraries though. Which libraries in particular are you referring to?


----------



## pmcrockett

GtrString said:


> I have one. Epic Drums from BigFish. Actually I loved the sounds of it, but then I read the EULA, which stated that I couldn't use it for production music, which was exactly the reason I bought it. Bummer, should have read the small letters beforehand. Never dared to get anything from them ever since, but lesson learned.


They recently changed their EULA to allow production music. (See here.) You might finally be able to use it!


----------



## Midihead

pmcrockett said:


> They recently changed their EULA to allow production music. (See here.) You might finally be able to use it!


EULA's that state you cannot use the sounds in production music are rediculous and should be avoided. The general rule is: As long as you layer the sample with other sounds and don't expose the sound solo, you're good. Otherwise you have to secure a special license.


----------



## mojamusic

synthpunk said:


> N



You have to be kidding me. I have’t even finished the download (after 6 months of waiting) and this library has already changed my life. I’m potential up for a 2050 Grammy/Oscar nod, solely based on my anticipation of using this in my upcoming project. Do you know how major this is? C’mon. Pleae don’t trash talk N.


----------



## kitekrazy

mojamusic said:


> You have to be kidding me. I have’t even finished the download (after 6 months of waiting) and this library has already changed my life. I’m potential up for a 2050 Grammy/Oscar nod, solely based on my anticipation of using this in my upcoming project. Do you know how major this is? C’mon. *Pleae don’t trash talk N*.



Violence will break out for sure.


----------



## tsk

Midihead said:


> EULA's that state you cannot use the sounds in production music are rediculous and should be avoided. The general rule is: As long as you layer the sample with other sounds and don't expose the sound solo, you're good. Otherwise you have to secure a special license.



I'm not sure I'd consider this legal advice.


----------



## tsk

There are so many threads creating enormous hype over a new plugin that I find this kind of thread very useful. It helps me to avoid bad products and avoid wasting my money.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

DocMidi657 said:


> Most of 8DIO stuff...total disaster for me. Mucho bucks down the drain.



I only ever bought Adagio Strings (on sale) and completely agree. $400 down the toilet. I will also add Albion One to the list.


----------



## brek

I was also a bit let down by Albion One. To be sure it's a very good library - just didn't reach the expectations I had going in. I won't repeat them, but I largely agree with the other complaints in this thread. I particularly have a hard time dealing with the brass and the arbitrary ranges for "hi", "mid", and "lo". I much prefer the way Berlin Inspire handles an ensemble library: full ensemble patches with a small sample of solo instruments or sections.

It's also too early to pass judgement, but I've been dealing with a ton of bugs and glitches in Cinebrass since purchasing it last week. First time I've ever had issues like this with any library.

Last, the 8Dio EULA is a PITA for a production studio with multiple staff composers. I don't use them anymore.


----------



## jtnyc

You'll notice that with most if not all 8Dio walkthroughs he's always playing back pieces of music that have been sequenced, edited, cc'd and tweaked to perfection. He rarely just plays a patch live. This was very telling to me after buying Adagio and Agitato and experiencing the many timing, tuning and other inconsistencies of the libraries. While there are some really nice sounds in there. Many of the shorts in Adagio are unusable for medium to fast repetitive passes. The rr attacks are all over the place. The loure patches don't sync, Also quite a few of the Adagio legatos are just plain awful. Bumping volume on transitions, tuning... ugg. Thankfully I got it all on sale, but still, total disappointment. And then they repackaged it all, stripped it down and are selling it for $699. Amazing!


----------



## Sopranos

Perry said:


> I'm no monster.Here is Maximo at work!



I can't seem to view the video. 

It's weird cause I have higher specs than you on my iMac but I get the popping. What is TRS? Also, what is your buffer set at?


----------



## Casiquire

tsk said:


> What would be your most disappointing library purchase of 2017?



I think we've veered way off topic in this thread haha


----------



## Perry

Perry said:


> I'm sorry about your Sonikenetic libraries.I'm using Maximo as I speak and I love it.I use Ostinato strings,Brass,Also Minimal.I have an old 2012 Mini Mac with 16 gig, I5 processor. I always use at least 16 Kontakt Inst. I would check all connections USB and otherwise I also use TRS on everything. I would Unplug USB and then plug back in.I know it sounds stupid. Its worth a try.





Sopranos said:


> I can't seem to view the video.
> 
> It's weird cause I have higher specs than you on my iMac but I get the popping. What is TRS? Also, what is your buffer set at?


----------



## Perry

TRS is Tip Ring Sleeve cords actually stereo cords.I changed all of them in my studio.My sound is so much better.It added about 4 db at least.My buffer is at 512 Hope this helps.I had a loose USB cord wasn't in all the way.I was going to buy a New Mac .But when I found out they soldered the memory to the board I bought this one my next thing is an SD Drive.


----------



## Perry

Perry said:


> I'm sorry about your Sonikenetic libraries.I'm using Maximo as I speak and I love it.I use Ostinato strings,Brass,Also Minimal.I have an old 2012 Mini Mac with 16 gig, I5 processor. I always use at least 16 Kontakt Inst. I would check all connections USB and otherwise I also use TRS on everything. I would Unplug USB and then plug back in.I know it sounds stupid. Its worth a try.


 Here is What I finished today.Maximo.


----------



## Apina

Propably Adagietto. It's unusable. There are some strong resonances which makes it's impossible to play certain harmonies and chords. I mailed about this to them and they took a. attitude and basically said "it's not for you then, deal with it". I've never bought anything from 8dio since.


----------



## bartveld

Neocymatics Clarinet Collection. With a very weird CC assignment.


----------



## almo

StevenOBrien said:


> Hollywood Strings. It was the first big library I ever bought when I was around 17 years old. Spent months saving up for it. It sounded great, but ended up being almost completely unusable due to the PLAY engine. Waited eagerly for an update to PLAY (I think it was PLAY 4?), and when I got it, it ended up making the performance/crashing even worse. Uninstalled it later that week and never used it again. ~$400 down the drain.


400$? Lucky guy.. I paid 800€ in 2012 and it was vey hard to use with an external SATA Drive via FW800....


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

I got M during the sale on VSTBuzz. I admit I was very happy with it at the time. But when N came out soon after, with all the hype, it changed my attitude to M and I felt I was missing out somehow. So you could say I was disappointed, but with a few month lag in my disappointment. I don't use M anymore, but at the same time, I'm not ready to pay the full price for N. I'm going to wait until it goes on sale.


----------



## VSTBuzz

TigerTheFrog said:


> I got M during the sale on VSTBuzz. I admit I was very happy with it at the time. But when N came out soon after, with all the hype, it changed my attitude to M and I felt I was missing out somehow. So you could say I was disappointed, but with a few month lag in my disappointment. I don't use M anymore, but at the same time, I'm not ready to pay the full price for N. I'm going to wait until it goes on sale.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

VSTBuzz said:


>



Okay, okay. I mispoke. Maybe it was Audio Plugin Deals or something on KVR. I don't remember. But when are you going to put N on sale? It would create a sensation on this forum.


----------



## axb312

Karl Feuerstake said:


> 8Dio Century Brass. Just didn't do what I was expecting it to, and don't expect I'll actually get any use out of it in the future.



What's wrong with it?


----------



## Polkasound

Apina said:


> Propably Adagietto. It's unusable. There are some strong resonances which makes it's impossible to play certain harmonies and chords. I mailed about this to them and they took a. attitude and basically said "it's not for you then, deal with it". I've never bought anything from 8dio since.



Adagietto has a LOT of problems (it should have _never_ been released as-is) but with some tweaks, I am making it work on a song for my upcoming album. Like you, I have not bought anything from 8Dio since. I have little faith in their quality control, and their forbiddance of license transfers doesn't help.



TigerTheFrog said:


> I got M during the sale on VSTBuzz.



I bought it on sale, too, but it wasn't VSTBuzz or Audio Plugin Deals. It was Small Fish Audio. (They were just starting out back then.)


----------



## storyteller

axb312 said:


> What's wrong with it?


@Karl Feuerstake I’m curious about this too.


----------



## Kevin Fortin

Arviwan said:


> One lib i really regretted buying : ImpactSoundWorks Bravura Scoring Brass !
> I'm selling it cheap if anyone's interested ...


Oh? What didn't you like about it?


----------



## lahatte

I must say, I find this thread useful.


----------



## Pietro

Haha, me too. Especially when your goal is to buy nothing :D.

- Piotr


----------



## GtrString

pmcrockett said:


> They recently changed their EULA to allow production music. (See here.) You might finally be able to use it!



Oh, thats nice. There still some confusing terms, like using it in a "music library"?? If you, like with any other sample library, use the samples in a musical context without isolating the instruments in stems - what has the user or publisher of the music to do with anything? I suspect it's a misunderstanding of responsibilities, engraved in an supposedly document of law.

While it does seem nice that they have changed their wording, I still find it hard to trust anyone with such confusing statements. What if you end up in an argument with those guys? It just seems unprofessional to me.


----------



## anderslink

At this point my least favorite purchases is Cinewinds. At least with Cinestrings I have made use out of the harmonics and short patches but with Cinewinds everything sounds harsh or overdone. There are just such better options out there worth saving up a bit more cash for. Spitfire winds are a night and day difference. The non-tack version of the Cinesamples Abbey Road Upright is my favorite piano though definitely give that library a look if you want a classic upright sound that is versatile.

Soniccouture Hammersmith I absolutely never liked. It doesn't sound characterful or full enough and compared to my other 6 piano libraries it is by far my least favorite. I don't like a clean traditional piano sound usually, though. I love some other stuff by Soniccouture like the electro-acoustic library or broken wurli.

Spitfire Evos are great at times but there is no question that owning nearly all of them is unnecessary. Spitfire makes the most incredible content I doubt I need to shed light on which libraries are good... but just to be fair to them the winds, chamber strings, and harp are my absolute favorite libraries. Really worth it to save up for these. The evos, swarms, bh library, sacconi strings, etc. are all not quite as ridiculously useful but are still among my favorites. Orchestral swarm is a bit out of tune in places to be used in certain contexts. Every SF library has one or two issues with tuning and that would be my least favorite part of em...

Soniccouture Glassworks isn't a bad library but it definitely wasn't for me. I guess I thought those kinds of sounds could be useful in many contexts...

Embertone friedlander violin and blakus cello are so amazingly playable but I never loved the dry sound. Sacconi has worked better for me and I really like having the extra articulations. That being said I miss the vibrato control from Embertone.

Basically the only company where I can genuinely always find a use for their products is Spitfire, but since I have so much of their content there is just an absurd amount I will never use. It feels like a waste for sure but when it works it really works.


----------



## pmcrockett

When cleaning my desk, I discovered buried underneath a pile of papers an uninstalled DVD copy of Sample Logic Rumble that I picked up several years ago on deep discount from a retailer that was liquidating its DVD stock. I don't regret buying it (for real, I'll install it one of these days); it's just weird to have an unused library _taking up physical space on my desk_ instead of taking up abstract virtual space on my hard drive.


----------



## kitekrazy

Pietro said:


> Haha, me too. Especially when your goal is to buy nothing :D.
> 
> - Piotr



Same here. I'm tempted to start using KH Diamond. I'll still think GPO is one of the best to use for messing around.


----------



## kitekrazy

pmcrockett said:


> When cleaning my desk, I discovered buried underneath a pile of papers an uninstalled DVD copy of Sample Logic Rumble that I picked up several years ago on deep discount from a retailer that was liquidating its DVD stock. I don't regret buying it (for real, I'll install it one of these days); it's just weird to have an unused library _taking up physical space on my desk_ instead of taking up abstract virtual space on my hard drive.



I got that for around $10. The rumor was the developer wasn't going to honor licenses because they didn't like how it was discounted. Now that you brought this up I may think if running them through some effects to create something unusual.


----------



## procreative

Pietro said:


> Haha, me too. Especially when your goal is to buy nothing :D.
> 
> - Piotr



But then you have got access to all those (superb) Sonokinetic titles you (brilliantly) orchestrated to keep you busy...


----------



## EgM

For me it was EWQL Symphonic Choirs, even bothered to buy the VOTA exp in which the males sound like a phased chewing gum orchestra....
It seemed to sound so nice in that old studio back in giga format...


----------



## procreative

I think there is a difference between buying a library newly released that never quite cuts it vs something like EWQL Symphonic Choirs which is what 10 years old. Back then it would have been fairly innovative when compared with say a Roland XV or Korg Triton rack...


----------



## EgM

procreative said:


> I think there is a difference between buying a library newly released that never quite cuts it vs something like EWQL Symphonic Choirs which is what 10 years old. Back then it would have been fairly innovative when compared with say a Roland XV or Korg Triton rack...



Oh, of course! But the old giga version didn't phase that bad, haha


----------



## Arviwan

Kevin Fortin said:


> Oh? What didn't you like about it?


The sound !!
Very harsh compared to Orchetral Tools, Spitfire or even Musical Sampling ...


----------



## Dav

Cinewinds and 8DIO Adagietto. I have Cinewinds Pro and Core and I have been mostly unhappy with them. For years they were useless for anything requiring legato speed and agility, but the latest update assisted that. BWW is much more usable for me. 

Adagietto has some great sounds, but the timing is very sloppy. The round robins in the legato are timed such that when I adjust the notes for timing, the next play back is off. It seemed like a moving target that I could never hit. I have Berlin Strings and Cinematic Strings 2. I doubt I will ever touch Adagietto again.


----------



## Darren Durann

Midihead said:


> Someone start a thread stating the BEST library purchase.



For me that would be Hollywood Strings. Most people who have a problem with HS never put the effort forth in learning how to use it.

Sorry, but dozens of high paid film composers agree with me (look it up).

Read the manual thoroughly and apply what you've learned, then come back and tell me if it still sucks.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Darren Durann said:


> For me that would be Hollywood Strings. Most people who have a problem with HS never put the effort forth in learning how to use it.
> 
> Sorry, but dozens of high paid film composers agree with me (look it up).
> 
> Read the manual thoroughly and apply what you've learned, then come back and tell me if it still sucks.



+1000 to that! I absolutely love them, and have never had a single issue other than actually learning how to use them as they were meant (bit of a learning curve, but reading the manual goes a long way). The legato is the best around. I'm also sick of hearing how bad Play is, blah blah blah. Most of the time it comes down to people trying to use HS on a machine with minimal RAM, a slow hard drive, no MOD wheel, or trying to use their onboard audio.


----------



## Darren Durann

To anyone considering Hollywood Strings (to a lesser degree the Brass), Symphonic Choirs Platinum...don't pay anything until you've motivated yourself to read the manual both away from and during use of the libraries in question There are very good videos on the subject as well.

Trust me, a total commitment yields jaw-dropping rewards. It also helps one heck of a lot to study books like Adler's Orchestration. Learning everything you can about strings and all the articulations will pay off for you big time.

I only write the above because I'm betting a lot of people here could gain so much from applying themselves to the elite libraries in the above way. Your music will sound terrific.


----------



## Sears Poncho

Darren Durann said:


> Trust me, a total commitment yields jaw-dropping rewards. It also helps one heck of a lot to study books like Adler's Orchestration. Learning everything you can about strings and all the articulations will pay off for you big time.



This is excellent advice. And don't forget attending the real deal, especially rehearsals.


----------



## jules

StevenOBrien said:


> Hollywood Strings. It was the first big library I ever bought when I was around 17 years old. Spent months saving up for it. It sounded great, but ended up being almost completely unusable due to the PLAY engine. Waited eagerly for an update to PLAY (I think it was PLAY 4?), and when I got it, it ended up making the performance/crashing even worse. Uninstalled it later that week and never used it again. ~$400 down the drain.


Come on... from your avatar it's obvious you're at least 67 years old, and everybody knows HS was not out in 1950...


----------



## jules

omiroad said:


> This confused the hell out of me honestly.


Lol. That's my avatar, i must fix my hair !


----------



## Sopranos

Project Chaos.


----------



## SimonViklund

Sopranos said:


> Project Chaos.


That hasn't been released yet, has it?


----------



## marcotronic

DocMidi657 said:


> Most of 8DIO stuff...total disaster for me. Mucho bucks down the drain... ... I'm done.



Same here. Unfortunately I have bought a lot of stuff from them over the years. A lot of issues never solved. Instead they throw one new product after the other on the market. I'm done here, too...


----------



## Darren Durann

jules said:


> Lol. That's my avatar, i must fix my hair !



NOOO! That's the best avatar anywhere!


----------



## Darren Durann

Polkasound said:


> Adagietto has a LOT of problems (it should have _never_ been released as-is) but with some tweaks, I am making it work on a song for my upcoming album. Like you, I have not bought anything from 8Dio since. I have little faith in their quality control, and their forbiddance of license transfers doesn't help.



Those aren't great, neither are their Adagio Violins. I've found the Adagio Viole and Basses to be pretty darn useful however, but only as solo instruments. I don't think 8dio does well with ensembles, but that's just my opinion.

The aforementioned Viole and Bass...you can get some really good sounds there, don't be too hesitant on that one (though in hindsight I could have just waited for the Hein).


----------



## jules

Darren Durann said:


> NOOO! That's the best avatar anywhere!


Thank you, sir !


----------



## Sopranos

SimonViklund said:


> That hasn't been released yet, has it?


No that's why it's the worst purchase 

J/K. Can't wait.


----------



## Syncopator

NYC Composer said:


> N.



OK, I'll bite. Anyone care to explain?


----------



## Jediwario1

Syncopator said:


> OK, I'll bite. Anyone care to explain?



https://vi-control.net/community/threads/n.62974/


----------



## N.Caffrey

Syncopator said:


> OK, I'll bite. Anyone care to explain?


He's clearly trolling, as N is one of the best libraries to date!


----------



## Syncopator

GtrString said:


> I have one. Epic Drums from BigFish. Actually I loved the sounds of it, but then I read the EULA, which stated that I couldn't use it for production music, which was exactly the reason I bought it. Bummer, should have read the small letters beforehand. Never dared to get anything from them ever since, but lesson learned.



Huh?! I just read the license agreement for Epic Drums, and I believe you're mistaken.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

I don't think I've heard many people complain _sound _of Hollywood strings, but rather the unwieldiness of it. Between the poorly planned (and implemented) articulation list to PLAY engine, I've personally always found it a headache to operate and from what I gather, others do too.


Every now and then ill open it up and have a play, and it quite obviously still holds up compared to the other top tier libraries but seriously, look at this:


----------



## kitekrazy

Darren Durann said:


> For me that would be Hollywood Strings. Most people who have a problem with HS never put the effort forth in learning how to use it.
> 
> Sorry, but dozens of high paid film composers agree with me (look it up).
> 
> *Read the manual thoroughly* and apply what you've learned, then come back and tell me if it still sucks.



Will do. I only have Strings Gold and looking at the articulations one has to me more familiar with string orchestration. Of course you can also use your ears.


----------



## GtrString

Syncopator said:


> Huh?! I just read the license agreement for Epic Drums, and I believe you're mistaken.



I refer to this part from the EULA “PLEASE NOTE: The samples may not be included, whether unmodified or as part of a derivative work, in any music library or sample library product.” http://www.bigfishaudio.com/detail.html?1;24;1::::::::::::Epic drums:1391

What do you think I am mistaken about? The definition of what could be understood as a product in any music library or sample library?

I get the sample library part, of course, but a music library is defined like this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_library and therefore Im not allowed to use this instrument in production music tracks, which (usually) are signed to production music libraries.

If there are just a shadow of a doubt of what a “music library” means, I cant use the product as it will be a liability for the parties I work with. So, I have never dared to use the thing. But yes, I should have read the EULA, so it is my responsability.

It is the only time Ive found an EULA like this though. Not sure what the point is, but perhaps they have reasons. I have moved on to more important matters.


----------



## Kony

GtrString said:


> whether unmodified or as part of a derivative work


This is the significant bit - what they're saying is you can't post the samples raw or in an already copyrighted track. You are allowed to use them in your own original production tracks.


----------



## GtrString

Kony said:


> This is the significant bit - what they're saying is you can't post the samples raw or in an already copyrighted track. You are allowed to use them in your own original production tracks.



Yeah that would be standard practice, but what are you making of the last part of the sentence “... in any music library or sample library product”?


----------



## Kony

I've read the whole EULA and it says you can use the samples in your own copyrighted work and sell those works. They have a standard protection clause for preventing the re-selling of their raw samples or for their use in a copyright infringing track.


----------



## star.keys

LASS, EW Symphonic Orchestra, Spitfire Albion One, 8Dio 1928 Piano


----------



## Leo

My ugly and disappointing library which I have never used: 
East West - Ghostwriter, SD3 
Cinesamples: Tina Guo Cello (full lib.)
Impact soundworks: Jugernaut
Spitfire audio: Artisan cello


----------



## axb312

storyteller said:


> @Karl Feuerstake I’m curious about this too.


:(. Still waiting. 8DIO sale on right now I think.


----------



## 98bpm

I would have to say, mine would be: 
1. Xsample Alto Sax.... the demos were awesome, but listening to it on its own exposed a lot of baked in room acoustics and there's phasing issues when crossfading non-vibrato to vibrato. Had high hopes for that one.

2. Precision Sounds Retro Gadgets Bundle.... Some of the worst editing EVER!
3. Wavesfactory Suspended Cymbals.... Cool concept, but the background noise makes it completely unusable. Still like the cymbal FX samples, but other than that - dud.
4. UVI Ultra Mini, UVS 3200, Drumulation and Emulation II.... These are actually pretty good, but I hated that you need UVI Workstation that doesn't allow you to save preset changes without so much footwork. First time dealing with them, so live and learn to deal with it.
5. Lastly actually goes back to 2015 when I bought Vocalizer Pro from Sonivox. Sure, it's an audio effect plugin, but since it has a built-in synth, I think it qualifies. That experience with Sonivox was sooooo bad, they should get out of the business!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

bc3po said:


> Oh man. I actually love this library. It’s specific but have using it a lot.



i do too, i think it is excellent (Intimate Textures) - especially with the 10% off.

perfect layering tool.


----------



## C-Wave

Spitfire Andy Findons Kitbag 2 library. five woodwinds; all missing a big chuck of the range! A technique Spitfire seems to get away with (probably to save some of the cost) by sampling only part of the complete range of the instrument. The Bansuri specially seems like a joke of a sample; sounds nothing like a bansuri.


----------



## oliverd

98bpm said:


> I would have to say, mine would be:
> 1. Xsample Alto Sax.... the demos were awesome, but listening to it on its own exposed a lot of baked in room acoustics and there's phasing issues when crossfading non-vibrato to vibrato. Had high hopes for that one.
> 
> 2. Precision Sounds Retro Gadgets Bundle.... Some of the worst editing EVER!
> 3. Wavesfactory Suspended Cymbals.... Cool concept, but the background noise makes it completely unusable. Still like the cymbal FX samples, but other than that - dud.
> 4. UVI Ultra Mini, UVS 3200, Drumulation and Emulation II.... These are actually pretty good, but I hated that you need UVI Workstation that doesn't allow you to save preset changes without so much footwork. First time dealing with them, so live and learn to deal with it.
> 5. Lastly actually goes back to 2015 when I bought Vocalizer Pro from Sonivox. Sure, it's an audio effect plugin, but since it has a built-in synth, I think it qualifies. That experience with Sonivox was sooooo bad, they should get out of the business!



Anything Sonivox or Air Music Tech is just absolutely woeful. They have some OK synths but dear god their customer service is terrible/non-existent!


----------



## Vovique

Syncopator said:


> Huh?! I just read the license agreement for Epic Drums, and I believe you're mistaken.


Actually it does say so:
"PLEASE NOTE: The samples may not be included, whether unmodified or as part of a derivative work, in any music library or sample library product."
But Big Fish stated here on VIC that they removed the "music library" restriction out of the EULA for all their products, though it would take long to update every individual product page because of the vast number of products.


----------



## asinclaire

C-Wave said:


> Spitfire Andy Findons Kitbag 2 library. five woodwinds; all missing a big chuck of the range! A technique Spitfire seems to get away with (probably to save some of the cost) by sampling only part of the complete range of the instrument. The Bansuri specially seems like a joke of a sample; sounds nothing like a bansuri.



Spitfire and inconsistency; name a more iconic duo.


----------



## Hans Josef

98bpm said:


> I would have to say, mine would be:
> 1. Xsample Alto Sax.... the demos were awesome, but listening to it on its own exposed a lot of baked in room acoustics and there's phasing issues when crossfading non-vibrato to vibrato. Had high hopes for that one.
> 
> 2. Precision Sounds Retro Gadgets Bundle.... Some of the worst editing EVER!
> 3. Wavesfactory Suspended Cymbals.... Cool concept, but the background noise makes it completely unusable. Still like the cymbal FX samples, but other than that - dud.
> 4. UVI Ultra Mini, UVS 3200, Drumulation and Emulation II.... These are actually pretty good, but I hated that you need UVI Workstation that doesn't allow you to save preset changes without so much footwork. First time dealing with them, so live and learn to deal with it.
> 5. Lastly actually goes back to 2015 when I bought Vocalizer Pro from Sonivox. Sure, it's an audio effect plugin, but since it has a built-in synth, I think it qualifies. That experience with Sonivox was sooooo bad, they should get out of the business!



I think you mean the two dimensional preset with xfade from vibrato to senza vibrato. This can't be perfectly done. So we think to remove these special presets. If you want, you can get a refund.


----------



## Quasar

If I could trade my Fluffy Audio Trio Broz Solo Strings for Fluffy's Solo Winds, I would. Never connected well with the strings and have since replaced them with others I like better. But the WWs get rave reviews and the demos sound really warm and expressive.


----------



## ChrisSiuMusic

How do you like the tone of Cinewinds vs. Berlin? Especially for a cinematic Disney style sound?


----------



## Jimmy Hellfire

Not that much comes to mind. Almost all these libraries come with glaring flaws, but that's something one puts up with because there's a lot to like about them as well. But I guess I would have to name Spitfire Albion ONE. It's nothing like the Legacy Albion (meaning: warm, lively, charming, beautiful) and sounds really overprocessed, synthy and, with the exception of a few patches, just not very good.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Darren Durann said:


> For me that would be Hollywood Strings. Most people who have a problem with HS never put the effort forth in learning how to use it.
> 
> Sorry, but dozens of high paid film composers agree with me (look it up).
> 
> Read the manual thoroughly and apply what you've learned, then come back and tell me if it still sucks.


Bit of a old post but... anybody cares to tell me what tons there are to learn about Hollywood Strings? I keep hearing that...
I'm playing they keys, heavily ride the modwheel (ahem...) and... that's it. I'm still happy with it all around and don't hear a ton of stuff others do with it that I wouldn't know how to do as well. Well, by playing and going nuts on the modwheel.  
Also gonna have a look at the manual now (never touched it) - maybe there are indeed some magical functions that... maybe transform me into the cat of some top-model or so...  (please!)


----------



## 98bpm

Hans Josef said:


> I think you mean the two dimensional preset with xfade from vibrato to senza vibrato. This can't be perfectly done. So we think to remove these special presets. If you want, you can get a refund.


That's very generous, but I have no idea how hard it must be to put all that together and I'm sure a lot of time and effort went into it. So, even though I may not be able to use it like I wanted, I think I still may have a place for it here and there so no refund needed. Thanks for the offer. Very kind of you.


----------



## Hans Josef

98bpm said:


> That's very generous, but I have no idea how hard it must be to put all that together and I'm sure a lot of time and effort went into it. So, even though I may not be able to use it like I wanted, I think I still may have a place for it here and there so no refund needed. Thanks for the offer. Very kind of you.



Thank you. My first impression was that you are very disappointed with the instrument.


----------



## gregh

Production Grand LE- I dont really like the sound that much and have no use for it at all. I am sure it is a very good library for some people but not for me. And cant be sold :(


----------



## procreative

DarkestShadow said:


> Bit of a old post but... anybody cares to tell me what tons there are to learn about Hollywood Strings? I keep hearing that...
> I'm playing they keys, heavily ride the modwheel (ahem...) and... that's it. I'm still happy with it all around and don't hear a ton of stuff others do with it that I wouldn't know how to do as well. Well, by playing and going nuts on the modwheel.
> Also gonna have a look at the manual now (never touched it) - maybe there are indeed some magical functions that... maybe transform me into the cat of some top-model or so...  (please!)



I know when I first got HWS (before it dropped in price) Play was a nightmare on a Mac and I could not even get close to running all the instruments. Eventually I got a PC Slave and VEP and as well as Play updates improving memory handling got a table setup.

For me setting up a template with them was educational, there are so many articulations some of which I had not encountered before such as Martele and Ricochet. Then there are the many hidden tricks that unless you read the manual all the way through dont know eg:

1. Some instruments use the modwheel for Vibrato and Dynamics meaning lower dynamics use less vibrato.

2. Legatos have many options, attack, type of slur, vibrato, dynamics (its why they are so memory intensive).

One of the key facts even considering how old it is (2010), Sustains/Legato have 13 sample layers I think, 6 for Vibrato, 7 for Dynamics (compare that to many newer Kontakt libraries that often use only 2-3).

Initially I was very disappointed at how it ran. It took a lot of system tweaking to get it running well.

Yes it has some inconsistencies and the Ambient/Far mics are almost pointless as the room it is recorded in almost has none (my main gripe). But its still a beast of a library.


----------



## pinki

98bpm said:


> That's very generous, but I have no idea how hard it must be to put all that together and I'm sure a lot of time and effort went into it. So, even though I may not be able to use it like I wanted, I think I still may have a place for it here and there so no refund needed. Thanks for the offer. Very kind of you.



Imagine if other devs adopted the same generous attitude.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

procreative said:


> I know when I first got HWS (before it dropped in price) Play was a nightmare on a Mac and I could not even get close to running all the instruments. Eventually I got a PC Slave and VEP and as well as Play updates improving memory handling got a table setup.
> 
> For me setting up a template with them was educational, there are so many articulations some of which I had not encountered before such as Martele and Ricochet. Then there are the many hidden tricks that unless you read the manual all the way through dont know eg:
> 
> 1. Some instruments use the modwheel for Vibrato and Dynamics meaning lower dynamics use less vibrato.
> 
> 2. Legatos have many options, attack, type of slur, vibrato, dynamics (its why they are so memory intensive).
> 
> One of the key facts even considering how old it is (2010), Sustains/Legato have 13 sample layers I think, 6 for Vibrato, 7 for Dynamics (compare that to many newer Kontakt libraries that often use only 2-3).
> 
> Initially I was very disappointed at how it ran. It took a lot of system tweaking to get it running well.
> 
> Yes it has some inconsistencies and the Ambient/Far mics are almost pointless as the room it is recorded in almost has none (my main gripe). But its still a beast of a library.


Thanks for the overview.
Definitely gonna read the manual. I generally just force the dynamics on my modwheel irrespective of how it is scripted (some midi transorming in Cubase). I only have a modwheel so I cannot really have it set to anything else. But it seems like with more controllers I could get a lot more out of it.
I also generally the the very lightest pacthes which I assume dont have a lot of those functions... I'm gonna look into the full patches when I get a stronger machine.


----------



## procreative

DarkestShadow said:


> Thanks for the overview.
> Definitely gonna read the manual. I generally just force the dynamics on my modwheel irrespective of how it is scripted (some midi transorming in Cubase). I only have a modwheel so I cannot really have it set to anything else. But it seems like with more controllers I could get a lot more out of it.
> I also generally the the very lightest pacthes which I assume dont have a lot of those functions... I'm gonna look into the full patches when I get a stronger machine.



The manual details which patches uses which way of controlling vibrato/dynamics as some use a combination and others have them separate. Also worth noting for some reason they use CC11 for dynamics on some patches.

The more hidden feature on Sustains/Legato is velocity. Obviously like many they use the lightest one for slides/portamento. But the attacks are also controlled on some patches.

Its a big manual though!


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

procreative said:


> The manual details which patches uses which way of controlling vibrato/dynamics as some use a combination and others have them separate. Also worth noting for some reason they use CC11 for dynamics on some patches.
> 
> The more hidden feature on Sustains/Legato is velocity. Obviously like many they use the lightest one for slides/portamento. But the attacks are also controlled on some patches.
> 
> Its a big manual though!


And a looot of patches... A bit excessive that library, haha.


----------



## 98bpm

pinki said:


> Imagine if other devs adopted the same generous attitude.


Exactly, and I'd suggest Sonivox learn from this. I'd take the refund.


----------



## X-Bassist

pinki said:


> Imagine if other devs adopted the same generous attitude.



8Dio, Sonivox, and East West would probably be out of business if this were the case.... not that there’s anything wrong with that. 

Also I think many here who enjoy the East West Hollywood Orch are forgetting the highly promised (repeatedly) yet ghost of an update called Play Pro. If I could just set my own keyswitches and choose a custom setup with just the articulations I need, it would be a whole other ballgame. I picked up Diamond on sale thinking “when Play Pro comes out ‘soon’ like Doug claims, this will be one hell of a library”. I’m glad Play 5 improved it’s performance (perhaps undone by Play 6? I haven’t dared to upgrade) but it is still the library from hell. As long as you don’t mind using many midi tracks for one violin line it’s not bad, but it makes using CSS look like a piece of cake!


----------



## Hans Josef

X-Bassist said:


> 8Dio, Sonivox, and East West would probably be out of business if this were the case.... not that there’s anything wrong with that.


I don't understand where is the problem.


----------



## 98bpm

Hans Josef said:


> I don't understand where is the problem.


As for 8dio and East West, I'm OK with them personally. Haven't had any issues with products or customer service so far. East West products are good if you really study the manual and put in work. As for Sonivox, I've never had such a bad and costly experience. I'll never buy from them again! So not to bog this thread, you can read about my encounter here:
https://getsatisfaction.com/sonivox...eply_button&reply[id]=18305508#reply_18305508


----------



## bigisland

Riff Generation by In Session Audio.

Interesting concept but with a very plastic and uninspiring sound.


----------



## SirkusPi

8dio's Misfits. I have need of all of these sounds (which is why I bought it, obviously ). But even on a pretty big sale, I can't really say it was worth it to me; I may be using it "wrong," but I have a very hard time getting anything useful out of the instruments, _except_ the mouth harp, which really is pretty darn cool and, to me, usable.


----------



## Dandezebra

I just read the whole thread and don't remember seeing Soundiron mentioned yet so props to them. I love the libraries I have from them!

Mine is probably Eclipse by Wide Blue. Maybe I need more time with it...


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

X-Bassist said:


> 8Dio, Sonivox, and East West would probably be out of business if this were the case.... not that there’s anything wrong with that.
> 
> Also I think many here who enjoy the East West Hollywood Orch are forgetting the highly promised (repeatedly) yet ghost of an update called Play Pro. If I could just set my own keyswitches and choose a custom setup with just the articulations I need, it would be a whole other ballgame. I picked up Diamond on sale thinking “when Play Pro comes out ‘soon’ like Doug claims, this will be one hell of a library”. I’m glad Play 5 improved it’s performance (perhaps undone by Play 6? I haven’t dared to upgrade) but it is still the library from hell. As long as you don’t mind using many midi tracks for one violin line it’s not bad, but it makes using CSS look like a piece of cake!



I'm the other end of the spectrum. Never use keyswitches in Hollywood Orchestra, and never will (useless to me), and have been a fan of Play since it's inception; Play 6 is wonderful.


----------



## Perry

SillyMidOn said:


> 8Dio Blendstrument Hybrid Pulses - nothing like as many variations as one might expect from the video. Useful, but limited, and very same-y sounding.



Yes I feel your pain.8Dio Blendstrument Hybrid Pulses .I have been trying to find a Rhythmic Pulsing Library.This didn't make it for me a bunch of rhythmic junk.The closest thing I have is Signal.Every Cinematic Library out there has booms, hits,drones.How many more do we need?.I've been searching for more freebies.They are more valuable. if there junk you delete them.
So my favorite Library is a tie Albion One.Sounds Pro.I have 3 Garritan Library's GP5, Instant,Personal Orchestra.They to me have more dynamics and sound more realistic.Without EQ and treating.Lastly I use Diamond Symphony Orc >Kirk Hunter.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Perry said:


> Yes I feel your pain.8Dio Blendstrument Hybrid Pulses .I have been trying to find a Rhythmic Pulsing Library.This didn't make it for me a bunch of rhythmic junk.The closest thing I have is Signal.Every Cinematic Library out there has booms, hits,drones.How many more do we need?.I've been searching for more freebies.They are more valuable. if there junk you delete them.
> So my favorite Library is a tie Albion One.Sounds Pro.I have 3 Garritan Library's GP5, Instant,Personal Orchestra.They to me have more dynamics and sound more realistic.Without EQ and treating.Lastly I use Diamond Symphony Orc >Kirk Hunter.



HAve you checked out Aurora by Fluffy Audio? I got it as part of a $99 bundle last year, great library for pulses.


----------



## Perry

Wolfie2112 said:


> HAve you checked out Aurora by Fluffy Audio? I got it as part of a $99 bundle last year, great library for pulses.



Thanks I'll check it out.


----------



## VgsA

Superior Drummer 2. And not because of the product itself, but Toontrack's customer service in my case:

After W10 Creator's Update, my SD2 stopped working (it crashes any DAW as soon as I load it up). They weren't able to figure out what was causing the error. Crashdumps, logs, tests involving relocating files and whatnot, updates, months of going back and forth trying everything, nothing fixed it. No refund option since it's been a long while since I got my copy, and apparently there's nothing they can do on their side.

I had clients on hold and I had to replace the drums mid-project, really tense move as I didn't know if they would like the forced change (that even Toontrack suggested). So yeah, most dissapointing library purchase ever for me.

BTW, I opened up a thread a month ago or so when there was finally nothing to do in case something experienced this. If you did and you read this, please reach out with whatever you did!


----------



## Voider

Kirkhunter Diamond Orchestra, definitely. Absolutely horrible sound to me. Even the Kontakt 5 factory content with very dated VSL samples is better. That $499 pricetag on it (I fortunately purchased it in a sale) is probably the biggest insult in the history of VSTs straight into customers faces. I know this library is liked by a few here, I will never understand how. It's like we have two different products from different worlds.


----------



## Vovique

Perry said:


> Yes I feel your pain.8Dio Blendstrument Hybrid Pulses .I have been trying to find a Rhythmic Pulsing Library.This didn't make it for me a bunch of rhythmic junk.The closest thing I have is Signal.Every Cinematic Library out there has booms, hits,drones.How many more do we need?.I've been searching for more freebies.They are more valuable. if there junk you delete them.
> So my favorite Library is a tie Albion One.Sounds Pro.I have 3 Garritan Library's GP5, Instant,Personal Orchestra.They to me have more dynamics and sound more realistic.Without EQ and treating.Lastly I use Diamond Symphony Orc >Kirk Hunter.


Heavyocoty Aeon Rhythmic is the answer, nothing but pulsez - electronic, fat and filthy. It's a few years old library, but the sounds are still cutting edge


----------



## Fab

all of them


----------



## Parsifal666

Evo 1- I didn't need all four Evos.

Evo 3 Quite a bit of this library can be accomplished through other means, including the Albion ostinati functions, Session Strings Pro Animator, etc. ad infinitum. It's okay for quick atmospheres, and you can get those cool wavy sounds by dicking around with the dynamics. But overall this was FAR from an essential purpose.

On the other hand Evo 2 and 4 can be really inspiring, especially the latter with the woodwinds. You can come up with some seriously useable, angular idea from both of them imo.

Met Ark 1...this is more something to get really big really quick (the Viagra of libraries WHEEE!). But I already had EW Symphonic Choirs Platinum, Strezov Storm Choir, Requiem Light, EW Hollywoods (which can be made to sound at least as big with engineering patience), and Iceni. That said, I would have been nuts over this library had I purchased it before anything else. Would be nice to resell. Nothing against the library (it's freaking excellent, people), I simply already have the tools I need for what it does. A waste of tax return (not to mention the time I labored with the manual and videos), it's more a toy than a tool, and I rarely have time to play with it.


----------



## robgb

Albion One. A lot of hoopla and I barely use it.


----------



## Parsifal666

robgb said:


> Albion One. A lot of hoopla and I barely use it.



That's another, though I do use a couple patches from it from time to time (legato woodwinds and spic/stac patches). Overall, I was fine with Legacy...still am. Seemed like a blatant repackaging imo.

I honestly don't want to badmouth SF too much here, as I do love a few of their libraries.


----------



## Peter Hirdes

8dio‘s Rythmic Revolution. Watched the Walkthrough Video about this „so inspiring“ instrument and -bam- done again. Played around with it for 2 hours and never found a way to use it in a track. Inspiration is the one thing but IMO a tool is useless if You just don’t get it fit into any given musical environment. 
Anyone out there who could ever use RR for anything meaningful?


----------



## Wunderhorn

Embertone Solo Strings Bundle. I think they are nice sounding instruments with great features. But what causes me not to use them right now is the fact that the Interface is just not intuitive and clear-cut enough and I have not been able to make it work with ArtzID.

I remember they wrote somewhere that they wanted to streamline the Interface and make it more consistent between the instruments but so far that has not happened. Since I also have the original Spitfire Solo Strings I am eligible for the upgrade. If they can deliver on the legato patches (knock on wood) this might be the ticket for me then. The Spitfire GUI makes so much more sense and is fairly consistent throughout their products. My only gripe is that in some spots the typography is way too small for my eyes.


----------



## Sunny Fable

What about making this thread a positive one? Anyone who is able to sell his most disappointing purchases should announce them in the classified thread. Maybe we'll help each other to get what we want from someone who's unhappy with the same product.


----------



## Voider

Sunny Fable said:


> Anyone who is able to sell his most disappointing purchases should announce them in the classified thread. Maybe we'll help each other to get what we want from someone who's unhappy with the same product.



Sounds great, unless you did purchase from a company like I did, who finds it funny to force you to stick with the license you're unhappy with by not allowing you to resell it.


----------



## kitekrazy

Sunny Fable said:


> What about making this thread a positive one? Anyone who is able to sell his most disappointing purchases should announce them in the classified thread. Maybe we'll help each other to get what we want from someone who's unhappy with the same product.



You can go make your own thread.


----------



## LamaRose

When one switches from orchestral to hip hop... well, there's a lot of money left on the table... the point being, ad nauseam, it's a damn shame we can't cash out a portion of old investments into new ones


----------



## richardt4520

Albion 2. If SA allowed resale, that would be gone yesterday. Also Sonixinema Hybrid Scoring Strings. None of the sounds do much for me in a useful way. Lackluster bass and guitar tones, no real orchestral string sounds to be had other than weird scrapes with the bow etc. Most of the "variety" extra patches just appear to be the same instruments run through overdrive plugins instead of any real sound design. But at least it was cheap unlike Loegria.


----------



## mobileavatar

It's not 2017 but very recently:
Light & Sound Concert Grand...

Very nice tone and character... that's why it was almost an instant purchase.
But once I started to dive in, I found out more than acceptable number of keys are with distortions @ high key velocities (ringing noise that is too loud that makes the overall tone sound like a prepared piano). It would have been more acceptable if it was consistent, but neither samples @ lower velocities nor the neighboring keys @ high velocities show similar distortion.

I wrote to L&S, and got a reply saying they realized what I observed during post-production, but told me that I should accept as part of its character. That's means there won't be any bug fix.

Bought Synchron CFX right after. It might be slightly more "clinical" in comparison, but the quality, consistency, and versatility of Synchron CFX is surely leagues above.


----------



## al_net77

mobileavatar said:


> It's not 2017 but very recently:
> Light & Sound Concert Grand...
> 
> Very nice tone and character... that's why it was almost an instance purchase.
> But once I started to dive in, I found out more than acceptable number of keys are with distortions @ high key velocities (ringing noise that is too loud that makes the overall tone sound like a prepared piano). It would have been more acceptable if it was consistent, but neither samples @ lower velocities nor the neighboring keys @ high velocities show similar distortion.
> 
> I wrote to L&S, and got a reply saying they realized what I observed during post-production, and told me that I should accept as part of its character. That's means there won't be any bug fix.
> 
> Bought Synchron CFX right after. It might be slightly more "clinical" in comparison, but the quality, consistency, and versatility of Synchron CFX is surely leagues above.



This.


----------



## N.Caffrey

mobileavatar said:


> It's not 2017 but very recently:
> Light & Sound Concert Grand...
> 
> Very nice tone and character... that's why it was almost an instance purchase.
> But once I started to dive in, I found out more than acceptable number of keys are with distortions @ high key velocities (ringing noise that is too loud that makes the overall tone sound like a prepared piano). It would have been more acceptable if it was consistent, but neither samples @ lower velocities nor the neighboring keys @ high velocities show similar distortion.
> 
> I wrote to L&S, and got a reply saying they realized what I observed during post-production, and told me that I should accept as part of its character. That's means there won't be any bug fix.
> 
> Bought Synchron CFX right after. It might be slightly more "clinical" in comparison, but the quality, consistency, and versatility of Synchron CFX is surely leagues above.



That sucks man!


----------



## Brian Nowak

Parsifal666 said:


> Met Ark 1...this is more something to get really big really quick (the Viagra of libraries WHEEE!). But I already had EW Symphonic Choirs Platinum, Strezov Storm Choir, Requiem Light, EW Hollywoods (which can be made to sound at least as big with engineering patience), and Iceni. That said, I would have been nuts over this library had I purchased it before anything else. Would be nice to resell. Nothing against the library (it's freaking excellent, people), I simply already have the tools I need for what it does. A waste of tax return (not to mention the time I labored with the manual and videos), it's more a toy than a tool, and I rarely have time to play with it.



HA!


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Sunny Fable said:


> What about making this thread a positive one? Anyone who is able to sell his most disappointing purchases should announce them in the classified thread. Maybe we'll help each other to get what we want from someone who's unhappy with the same product.



How about you call 8Dio and tell them to allow resale then.


----------



## StatKsn

mobileavatar said:


> It's not 2017 but very recently:
> Light & Sound Concert Grand...
> 
> Very nice tone and character... that's why it was almost an instant purchase.
> But once I started to dive in, I found out more than acceptable number of keys are with distortions @ high key velocities (ringing noise that is too loud that makes the overall tone sound like a prepared piano). It would have been more acceptable if it was consistent, but neither samples @ lower velocities nor the neighboring keys @ high velocities show similar distortion.
> 
> I wrote to L&S, and got a reply saying they realized what I observed during post-production, but told me that I should accept as part of its character. That's means there won't be any bug fix.
> 
> Bought Synchron CFX right after. It might be slightly more "clinical" in comparison, but the quality, consistency, and versatility of Synchron CFX is surely leagues above.



If the patch is not locked, I assume you can remove offending velocity layers and stretch the nearest velocity (or borrow the neighboring keys) to at the least massage the issue.


----------



## axb312

mobileavatar said:


> It's not 2017 but very recently:
> Light & Sound Concert Grand...
> 
> Very nice tone and character... that's why it was almost an instant purchase.
> But once I started to dive in, I found out more than acceptable number of keys are with distortions @ high key velocities (ringing noise that is too loud that makes the overall tone sound like a prepared piano). It would have been more acceptable if it was consistent, but neither samples @ lower velocities nor the neighboring keys @ high velocities show similar distortion.
> 
> I wrote to L&S, and got a reply saying they realized what I observed during post-production, but told me that I should accept as part of its character. That's means there won't be any bug fix.
> 
> Bought Synchron CFX right after. It might be slightly more "clinical" in comparison, but the quality, consistency, and versatility of Synchron CFX is surely leagues above.



What a shite response.


----------



## windyweekend

SA LCO is my hammer I'm still trying to find a nail for. Tried using it for screwing but it doesn't fit. Tried using it for sawing but it doesn't sound right there either. Every time I think I have the perfect project for it it just doesn't sound any good and gets jettisoned after 30 minutes of trying to force it to be something it's not. I'm sure it will sound great for what it's perfect sound is supposed to be, but I'm not sure I know what that actually is anymore. Could just be my mixing, but I can't get this working with anything else except as a (very expensive) 'weird note' motif tool. I'm really, really hoping I'll crack the enigmatic, mystery of this one one day and it'll work for what I need. In the meantime it's on the tool shelf gathering dust next to Masse. Still pretty grateful these are both Kontakt instruments. Great design and usability from Spitfire one way or another. If someone were to offer me my money back but keep them in Play I'd tell them where to go. This is one of many things Spitfire have got right.

Regarding the Albion One complaints, I do find I use it less nowadays, but it's still the best patching tool out there (way better than Masse imo). Weirdly I had some fast legato string runs in a score a couple of years ago that I wrote with AO that I found impossible to replicate and beat with a full divisi on top using the higher end libs. Ended up keeping it in there because it just worked out of the box....which begs an interesting question I might spin up a new thread for :0)


----------



## Jerry Growl

EWQL Pianos. Sounds dead as a plastic fish. Also a huge amount of useless data.


----------



## Parsifal666

windyweekend said:


> SA LCO is my hammer I'm still trying to find a nail for. Tried using it for screwing but it doesn't fit. Tried using it for sawing but it doesn't sound right there either. Every time I think I have the perfect project for it it just doesn't sound any good and gets jettisoned after 30 minutes of trying to force it to be something it's not. I'm sure it will sound great for what it's perfect sound is supposed to be, but I'm not sure I know what that actually is anymore. Could just be my mixing, but I can't get this working with anything else except as a (very expensive) 'weird note' motif tool. I'm really, really hoping I'll crack the enigmatic, mystery of this one one day and it'll work for what I need. In the meantime it's on the tool shelf gathering dust next to Masse.



One takes that risk whenever buying a niche library.

I wish I'd gotten a straight answer about Met Ark 1 and its not being necessary when one has certain other libraries (and some good engineering knowledge). Seven hundred US I wish I could have demo'd first...but I wish _*more*_ there'd been a resale option.


----------



## Jerry Growl

Parsifal666 said:


> Met Ark 1...this is more something to get really big really quick (the Viagra of libraries WHEEE!). But I already had EW Symphonic Choirs Platinum, Strezov Storm Choir, Requiem Light, EW Hollywoods (which can be made to sound at least as big with engineering patience)


I'd have thought Wagner would prefer the instant "Wheee!" though.


----------



## windyweekend

Parsifal666 said:


> One takes that risk whenever buying a niche library.



Could be I'm just not cool enough for too many niche libraries. I might buy a cravat and start wearing a smoking jacket to see if it helps.


----------



## mobileavatar

StatKsn said:


> If the patch is not locked, I assume you can remove offending velocity layers and stretch the nearest velocity (or borrow the neighboring keys) to at the least massage the issue.



Thanks for the suggestion! It is not locked. Some keys have as few as 5 velocity layers. Probably it's better to borrow from the neighboring keys, but often the number of velocity layers are not the same. So it's not as straightforward but certainly worth a try.


----------



## fixxer49

windyweekend said:


> SA LCO is my *hammer* I'm still trying to find a nail for. Tried using it for sawing but it doesn't sound right there either.



just think of it as a spackler. i use it in all kinds of straight-ahead [possibly counter-intuitive] places. and i'm very happy with it.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Jerry Growl said:


> EWQL Pianos. Sounds dead as a plastic fish. Also a huge amount of useless data.



Actually, I was just thinking about this recently while trying to find a new piano patch. I downloaded them all as part of my cloud subscription, but honestly I'm not a fan (yet, anyways). I still prefer the old Steinway B in Goliath/SO.


----------



## Jerry Growl

Wolfie2112 said:


> Actually, I was just thinking about this recently while trying to find a new piano patch. I downloaded them all as part of my cloud subscription, but honestly I'm not a fan (yet, anyways). I still prefer the old Steinway B in Goliath/SO.


It was an audacious collection at the time. Great detail, lots of microphones, lots of Gigabytes... At best I can play it for 10 minutes, before I feel miserable. It sounds to me like a dissected frog. Even though they were at some time very nice looking frogs, especially the Bösendorfer.


----------



## Parsifal666

Jerry Growl said:


> I'd have thought Wagner would prefer the instant "Wheee!" though.



Believe me, if Ark 1 had been my first ensemble library I would have wrote even more overblown junk than I do now!!!

I get super epic with the libraries I mentioned...in some ways better than Ark. But that's just me, as I said Met Ark 1 is still a pretty darn badass library imo. 

I started out with rock and heavy metal music as a kid (mostly the latter), so Wagner (and Met Ark 1 for that matter) were pretty obviously going to be in my future lol! I just get sounds that make me happier with Iceni, Hollywood, etc. Keep in mind, I must always tag at the end "engineering ability", without that MA1 would have been a constant staple for my epics.


----------



## StatKsn

From today's standard, QL Pianos has a lot of quirks and problems that haven't fixed and probably never will (there are a few dynamic layers that are louder/softer than higher/lower velocity, release noise stacking up, high notes are not dampered, pop/click at the end of sample etc). Can be worked around if you are just looking for a scoring piano, but the playability is kind of limited and the behavior is somewhat unrealistic at times.

I personally love its colorful roomy sound and wide dynamic range though, especially the Bosendorfer. Nick P did a fantastic job designing the sound of the library.

At the current price the spec is probably good enough for a character scoring piano. I wish I were able to tinker with the patches like Kontakt (Play Pro will come out in 2100).


----------



## muk

One recent disappointing purchase have been Synchron Strings for me. I own quite a few VSL libraries and like them a lot. Not so with Synchron Strings unfortunately. I didn't fancy the sound, I wasn't happy with the legato, I didn't connect with how it reacts to cc changes. I missed many articulations, which is a first for VSL libraries.


----------



## Voider

axb312 said:


> What a shite response.



That reminds me of Cinesamples who did respond to my mail adressing heavy noise baked into the round robins of their _Cinesymphony Lite_ library, that it's just considered to be a "sketching library", not for final productions. And that therefore I should have a look at their full orchestra libraries.

Unfortunately they forgot that the samples in _Cinesymphony Lite_ are actually taken from their full libraries. Last purchase I made from them, that's fore sure.


----------



## joebaggan

muk said:


> One recent disappointing purchase have been Synchron Strings for me. I own quite a few VSL libraries and like them a lot. Not so with Synchron Strings unfortunately. I didn't fancy the sound, I wasn't happy with the legato, I didn't connect with how it reacts to cc changes. I missed many articulations, which is a first for VSL libraries.



Yea, I want to like VSL but for the top dollar you pay for things like Synchron and their elaborate and costly upgrade paths, I just haven't found the quality to be worth it compared to other more recent libs. They sure have figured out an elaborate complicated way to monetize their products though (SE, Vol 1, Vol 1 plus, Vol 2 plus blah blah) Drives me nuts. Good news though is if you don't like their budget offferings, you can just stop there.


----------



## pderbidge

My biggest regret was buying 8Dio's Songwriting Guitar, a phrase based lib. For $98 I would have thought it be on par with Strummed Acoustic but was not even close. If it were say $50 then maybe not so bad but even then it was waaaay too limited for what it was. The good news is I wrote 8Dio about my disappointment after trying it out for a week and they worked out a good deal with me. I ended up getting an Agitato library and it was great. I recently finished the collection with their 40% sale. I feel like their support was top notch to work with.
I was also originally disappointed in Albion and then again in Albion One (blaspheme, I know) but the good news is the more I delve into it and force myself to work with it, since I paid so much for it, I actually like it a lot now. Some libraries just take time to warm up to.


----------



## Mike Fox

Dandezebra said:


> I just read the whole thread and don't remember seeing Soundiron mentioned yet so props to them. I love the libraries I have from them!



Yeah! They kick ass!


----------



## keepitsimple

- Light and sound concert Grand

- Chocolate audio Model 7

Advice to kontakt piano libraries developers: Make demo versions of your products because piano libraries need to be experienced and played before commitment or at least offer money back within a week. Not asking for 30 days. 

Advice to myself: Never blind buy a piano library ever again.


----------



## Ultraxenon

pderbidge said:


> My biggest regret was buying 8Dio's Songwriting Guitar, a phrase based lib. For $98 I would have thought it be on par with Strummed Acoustic but was not even close. If it were say $50 then maybe not so bad but even then it was waaaay too limited for what it was. The good news is I wrote 8Dio about my disappointment after trying it out for a week and they worked out a good deal with me. I ended up getting an Agitato library and it was great. I recently finished the collection with their 40% sale. I feel like their support was top notch to work with.
> I was also originally disappointed in Albion and then again in Albion One (blaspheme, I know) but the good news is the more I delve into it and force myself to work with it, since I paid so much for it, I actually like it a lot now. Some libraries just take time to warm up to.


I totally agree with you, some libraries grows while you work with them.


----------



## GearNostalgia

Well, It is definitely my purchase of a choir library from 8Dio. Had massive expectations from demos of it and found flaws after 10 minutes playing it. That followed up by a zero refund/resale/storecredit/discount offer policy made me soo sad. A true feeling of beeing fooled.


----------



## GearNostalgia

pderbidge said:


> My biggest regret was buying 8Dio's Songwriting Guitar, a phrase based lib. For $98 I would have thought it be on par with Strummed Acoustic but was not even close. If it were say $50 then maybe not so bad but even then it was waaaay too limited for what it was. The good news is I wrote 8Dio about my disappointment after trying it out for a week and they worked out a good deal with me. I ended up getting an Agitato library and it was great. I recently finished the collection with their 40% sale. I feel like their support was top notch to work with.
> I was also originally disappointed in Albion and then again in Albion One (blaspheme, I know) but the good news is the more I delve into it and force myself to work with it, since I paid so much for it, I actually like it a lot now. Some libraries just take time to warm up to.



What? Seems like they have good and bad days. I had a horrible experience with them offering me nothing at all in the same situation on their top of the line choir library.


----------



## GearNostalgia

DocMidi657 said:


> Most of 8DIO stuff...total disaster for me. Mucho bucks down the drain... Only company I ever asked for my money back but no way...they kept it. Their demos are always so good yet THE worst playability ever. I tried a few different times with their libraries , now no matter how impressive their sales pitch is...won't take the chance with them. Also a month ago sent a support request to them on how I could get the update for the 1920's something piano I had purchased and never heard back. I'm done.



Wish I had read this thread before I stepped in on 8Dios site. I share your feelings totally. :(


----------



## paularthur

Anything that doesn't have Cine as the first four letters... and not so much disappointed in the product as in my in myself for impulse/corner cutting purchases... The good news i've managed to cherry pick my least used libraries for a patch or two that's useful...


----------



## Loïc D

Not a big spender here, but I'd say :

East West StormDrum (a while back, remember NI Intakt ? I never really used it)
8DiOboe (so far, never managed to make it sit in a mix, but I'll keep on trying)
EWQL Symphonic Choir (mostly WordBuilder though I had rolf moments try to make the choir curse in French).

I also have mixed feelings about EWQL Orchestra Gold : I like the sound & articulations, but it's not a instant-gratification library :D

Sobbing about all the ivory back scratchers I could have bought with that money.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

LowweeK said:


> Not a big spender here, but I'd say :
> 
> East West StormDrum (a while back, remember NI Intakt ? I never really used it)
> 8DiOboe (so far, never managed to make it sit in a mix, but I'll keep on trying)
> EWQL Symphonic Choir (mostly WordBuilder though I had rolf moments try to make the choir curse in French).
> 
> I also have mixed feelings about EWQL Orchestra Gold : I like the sound & articulations, but it's not a instant-gratification library :D
> 
> Sobbing about all the ivory back scratchers I could have bought with that money.



And that just goes to show that everyone has different tastes. I always felt EWQL Orchestra Gold and Symphonic Choir were "instant gratification" libraries...right back to when I first bought them on the old NI Kompakt platform. And I still use Stormdrum 1 quite a bit, I just love those loops.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

GearNostalgia said:


> Well, It is definitely my purchase of a choir library from 8Dio. Had massive expectations from demos of it and found flaws after 10 minutes playing it. That followed up by a zero refund/resale/storecredit/discount offer policy made me soo sad. A true feeling of beeing fooled.



The same thing happened when I bought the Adagio bundle on sale for $400, big waste of money. That is the only library that gave me buyers remorse. Fortunately, some of the Sordino patches in Adagietto are useable.


----------



## The Darris

Of the libraries I've purchased, I'd say the one that really sits up there for me was Aria Sound's London Symphony Stings - 1st Violins (Not the solo strings). I honestly don't think they sell this library series anymore as I can't find it on their website. The production quality was not good as the orchestra sounded like it was recorded in a tin can. The programming was extremely shotty, with a horrible GUI design that also had very odd behavior. To adjust the mic levels, the sliders moved up and down but if you clicked on them, you needed to move your mouse side to side to adjust them. Just hilariously awful. The icing on the cake of how bad it was, was the "true glissandi" patch. They tried to program it like you would regular legato libraries but only captured one or two glissandi transitions through the range and the cross-fade in and out of it was just not good. Very clever idea and awesome concept but very lazily designed and implemented. 

Now, I really tried to like it. They had, at the time, a lot of articulations not present on the market and I was in the need of filling out my string samples with as many different colors as possible. I remember sending an email to their support highlighting my frustration over the current state of that library in the first few days following it's release and they never responded. Due to that lack of any customer support, I've never purchased from them again. I've heard their newer libraries are better but that whole experience was enough to never want to buy from them again. 

Cheers,

Chris


----------



## Gerbil

Sampletekk's Cin-A piano and the Light and Sound Grand.


----------



## Parsifal666

LowweeK said:


> Not a big spender here, but I'd say :
> 
> East West StormDrum (a while back, remember NI Intakt ? I never really used it)
> 8.



Wow, you should check out 1 2 and 3 now with Play. It's so eclectic, one of the best drum libraries I've owned, period.


----------



## Mike Fox

Crazy how many 8Dio complaints there are in this thread. I'd say a lot of their libraries/demos/walkthroughs are smoke and mirrors, but they have hit a few home runs.


----------



## Mike Fox

Parsifal666 said:


> Wow, you should check out 1 2 and 3 now with Play. It's so eclectic, one of the best drum libraries I've owned, period.


+1 Love these libraries.


----------



## GearNostalgia

Mike Fox said:


> Crazy how many 8Dio complaints there are in this thread. I'd say a lot of their libraries/demos/walkthroughs are smoke and mirrors, but they have hit a few home runs.



Well I am not surpriced. If I managed to get a sour grape on the first picking from 8Dio there must be more cause I did not dig deep at all to find the flaw.


----------



## Parsifal666

Mike Fox said:


> +1 Love these libraries.



I was kind of astonished when I saw the negative review there. The Stormdrums are killer toolkits, plenty of inspiration to be had. 3 has some seriously well done world instruments...the scope of the percussion is freaking intense if you ask me. All three are desert island for me, I do like the Ark 1, Evolution stuff too. And Apocalypse Elements can be fun and inspiring as well imo.


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Ark 1 & 3.

Just not my thing.

Wish i would have checked the resale restriction before buying.


----------



## Gerbil

FWIW, I just want to mention that I have some friends staying over to watch the world cup, all of whom are musicians, and we spent some time jamming in my studio yesterday. Every one of them loved the L&S Grand I mentioned above. When I drew their attention to my problems with it they all thought I was being a bit too anal. The universal agreement was that the core sound was beautiful.


----------



## Divico

EW Ministry of Rock 2. Do not like the basses and guitars. The drums are ok but some of the samples are hard clipping so the whole thing is unusable.


----------



## TrojakEW

Keepforest Evolution Bundle and Heavyocity Gravity with all packs. For me those are just bunch of effects and loops. There is nothing you can't make with cheaper libraries or synths. Both overpriced and especially Gravity.


----------



## reddognoyz

Alex Niedt said:


> My biggest regret right now is 8Dio Liberis, not because it's an inherently bad library, but because after buying Genesis, Liberis will forever collect dust.



I actually use them side by side, I find Liberis to work really well as "invisible pads" something I can add under for fullness the "mmmmm's" especially. the genisis library's legatos are really good and have taken over that roll for me.


----------



## bsntn99

I'll jump in and say the L&S Concert Grand as well. Issues mentioned elsewhere are the unevenness from note to note and large jumps in timbre across velocity layers. Very weirdly sampled with 5 layers for some notes and 30+ for others. Also the pedaling is messed up, the interface too big, and a few bad buzzy notes that stand out. Completely unusable in any standard composition. Had to go back to my standbys. Beautiful tone fundamentally, but a piano in worn shape and a poor sampling strategy. A real missed opportunity. The developer gave me the same responses as others have mentioned above. So no hope of any fixes.


----------



## Tice

I'm starting to have a bit of a love-hate relationship with the Bernard Herrmann library. I REALLY love the general vibe of it, but it's tough to 'marry' that vibe with other things at times, and my current projects aren't a good fit so I don't get to use it as much as I'd like. But there are also some really flat notes in there that can throw a wrench into what I'd like to do... ...but the library sounds so awesome too!


----------



## Perry

Vovique said:


> Heavyocoty Aeon Rhythmic is the answer, nothing but pulsez - electronic, fat and filthy. It's a few years old library, but the sounds are still cutting edge


That is what I've been searching for for 3 years have bought 6 library's and they can't compare to Aeon.Thanks.


----------



## artomatic

NI Complete 11 - A buyer's remorse here. There are just too many dated products in this package!


----------



## cyoder

bsntn99 said:


> ... L&S Concert Grand ... no hope of any fixes.


In case you didn’t see it, the dev said he’s working on an update on a different VI-C thread.


----------



## Maxfabian

I really had hi hopes on Metropolis Ark 3.. I own Ark 1 and Im really satisfied with that but when I bought Ark 3 after being very impressed of the demos and walkthroughs, I can now say that I really find Ark 3 VERY hard to use. Maybe I have to get into it more but every time I launch it I get disappointed:( At this moment I think it is my most disappointing library purchase. Hopefully I find it useful sometimes in the near future..
Time will tell.


----------



## bjderganc

artomatic said:


> NI Complete 11 - A buyer's remorse here. There are just too many dated products in this package!



!! (!!!)


----------



## Brian Nowak

Maxfabian said:


> I really had hi hopes on Metropolis Ark 3.. I own Ark 1 and Im really satisfied with that but when I bought Ark 3 after being very impressed of the demos and walkthroughs, I can now say that I really find Ark 3 VERY hard to use. Maybe I have to get into it more but every time I launch it I get disappointed:( At this moment I think it is my most disappointing library purchase. Hopefully I find it useful sometimes in the near future..
> Time will tell.



Wow, REALLY? It's far from perfect. It has some glitches in it. But man I find it inspiring to play every time I open it up.

What are you wanting to do with it? And what are you finding disappointing exactly?


----------



## Brian Nowak

For me, I'd have to say my most disappointing purchase is probably 8Dio Studio Piano. I suspect the scripting is to blame. It's very CPU heavy, especially when playing even remotely fast. All in all, I only spent $100 for it on sale. But given that it's difficult to use I hardly ever fire it up.

I don't have a lot of libraries, so I don't have a lot of regrets. I feel like I get close to regret on Ark 2. If they address the borderline noise problems, the mid strings abrupt tail cutoffs, and the glitch where adjusting individual articulation in multi patches drops samples, I'll feel much better about the library.


----------



## robdrmz

So far Shreddage. I just can't make it work. So I'm using East West's MOR II - the guitars and bass are great, for drums I'm using the Steven Slate. The MOR drums are nice & have percussion(bells etc) just haven't found a use yet.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

robdrmz said:


> So far Shreddage.


 Really?? I was actually really interested in Shreddage band


----------



## robdrmz

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> Really?? I was actually really interested in Shreddage band


 By all means try Shredage band. I hear so many bad things about East West software & absolutely love it. 
I produced a track recorded in their Studio 1 and they sound was amazing, all the history & legendary recordings made there probably helped make my decision
Try the shreddage, Impact Soundworks were nice enough I just don't like the GUI. 

Also, my version of shreddage is very old,the first version. Let me know if I can answer any questions.


----------



## StatKsn

Playability wise, if you are able to make a good sound out of MoR 2 guitars and basses (which is totally possible, but you'll need to manually program noises and strumming patterns since the only thing MoR 2 does for you is hammer on/pull off) then getting a good sound from Shreddage should be as easy as 123. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Geoff Grace

Mike Fox said:


> Crazy how many 8Dio complaints there are in this thread.


I noticed the same thing! I don't own any of their products, so I don't know whether I would agree or disagree with the negative comments; but the high volume of complaints seems at least worth taking in consideration when contemplating future purchases.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Vik

Mike Fox said:


> Crazy how many 8Dio complaints there are in this thread.


Yet, if you look at the large string library poll here with between 90 and 100 entries, both Adagio, Adagietto and Agitato are among the 20 most-voted for libraries: https://vi-control.net/community/th...on-solo-string-libraries-and-why.60460/page-7
My conclusion? Trust your own ears, not others'.


----------



## lucianogiacomozzi

robdrmz said:


> So far Shreddage. I just can't make it work. So I'm using East West's MOR II - the guitars and bass are great, for drums I'm using the Steven Slate. The MOR drums are nice & have percussion(bells etc) just haven't found a use yet.



Really? I love Shreddage!


----------



## robdrmz

lucianogiacomozzi said:


> Really? I love Shreddage!


Which version do you have? I bought the Shreddage 1 package from Impact Soundworks website. The manual didn't really say much on operation. You tube has some info, just not setting it up.


----------



## Motr3b

i know there are others but one that i now remember is SpitfireAudio Enigma


----------



## Michel Simons

Motr3b said:


> i know there are others but one that i now remember is SpitfireAudio Enigma



I actually like that one. Great for adding some subtle flourishes.


----------



## CGR

cyoder said:


> In case you didn’t see it, the dev said he’s working on an update on a different VI-C thread.


Yes, I've read about the intended update a few times, so it's a bit premature and unfair to the developer to be stating " . . . no hope of any fixes".


----------



## MarcusD

I like 8DIO stuff despite some of the flaws, but my most disappointing purchase was Requiem Pro.

Another was Keep Forest Viking Cinematic Metal. The interface has some under-the-hood issues which really cripple performance, rendering it almost completely useless for me.


----------



## Motr3b

MarcusD said:


> I like 8DIO stuff despite some of the flaws, but my most disappointing purchase was Requiem Pro.
> 
> Another was Keep Forest Viking Cinematic Metal. The interface has some under-the-hood issues which really cripple performance, rendering it almost completely useless for me.



hi
i just got requiem pro a few days ago.
i've liked it so far but can you tell me in what way it has disappointed you?


----------



## Parsifal666

Motr3b said:


> hi
> i just got requiem pro a few days ago.
> i've liked it so far but can you tell me in what way it has disappointed you?



The only way it disappointed me was that I bought it before I bought Ark 1 and finally upgraded to EW Symphonic Choirs Platinum, the latter two
made it totally obsolete for my needs.

In fact, the choir in Ark 1 is the only thing I keep using Ark for (to be honest, I could've gotten not entirely dissimilar results, with extra work, using EWSC).


----------



## lucianogiacomozzi

robdrmz said:


> Which version do you have? I bought the Shreddage 1 package from Impact Soundworks website. The manual didn't really say much on operation. You tube has some info, just not setting it up.



I have Shreddage 1 also, I agree, there's a lack of documentation but it sounds alright in a mix with the right amps and some time to tweak and get used to everything.


----------



## MarcusD

Motr3b said:


> hi
> i just got requiem pro a few days ago.
> i've liked it so far but can you tell me in what way it has disappointed you?



I just wasn't blown away with the legato patches, just something about the sound of them didn't feel quite right to me. But that's my personal taste, it's no disrespect to the library. It has some great sounding patches that are very usable. I was just hoping it'd be my main go-to choir library, but instead I use it for layering textures.


----------



## Parsifal666

lucianogiacomozzi said:


> I have Shreddage 1 also, I agree, there's a lack of documentation but it sounds alright in a mix with the right amps and some time to tweak and get used to everything.



I have Shreddage II, and (this might be outrageously unpopular) I like Guitar Rig better, especially with the IRs I can run through Reflektor. Shreddage II has a nasty habit of playing double stops at times even on "mono" mode. Support was good for the product, but I never completely worked that bug out.

To be honest, if I could sell Shreddage I'd drop it in a heartbeat.


----------



## Sam75016

Even if i was happy with some Realitone products i had previously purchased , i was very disappointed with their Realivox Ladies V2. The demo was ok so i bought it but once i tried it in real situation it didn t encourage me to reopen it.


----------



## Motr3b

@Alex Niedt @Parsifal666 @MarcusD
well i cant argue with you, i mainly like the choral effects, shorts and latin phrases it has.
i still like it but i'm not desperately in love with it,MA 1 has a richer choir sound.
but isn't that sort of most 8dio's plugins feature? i have their new taiko ensemble(like it) and it has its own problems.


----------



## SimonCharlesHanna

Alright I am doing it

Sound Iron Olympus choir. 

Lack of dynamic layers, the hall is just full bodied in a bad way, *bloated *and confusing. 

Never made it into a track of mine


----------



## Saxer

Sam75016 said:


> Even if i was happy with some Realitone products i had previously purchased , i was very disappointed with their Realivox Ladies V2. The demo was ok so i bought it but once i tried it in real situation it didn t encourage me to reopen it.


Really? Works fine here. Especially in 'real situations'


----------



## tim727

Easily Fluffy Audio's Rinascimento. Honestly the only time I've ever purchased a library and then deeply regretted it right away. I appreciate what Paolo and his team tried to do with it, but the quality is such a far cry from Tarilonte's stuff that I just can't bring myself to use it.


----------



## Erick - BVA

tim727 said:


> Easily Fluffy Audio's Rinascimento. Honestly the only time I've ever purchased a library and then deeply regretted it right away. I appreciate what Paolo and his team tried to do with it, but the quality is such a far cry from Tarilonte's stuff that I just can't bring myself to use it.


Hmmm, that's a shame. I was interested in Rinascimento. The demos sounded quite nice to me. I have Era Medeival Legends 2. So you're saying I shouldn't bother?


----------



## N.Caffrey

tim727 said:


> Easily Fluffy Audio's Rinascimento. Honestly the only time I've ever purchased a library and then deeply regretted it right away. I appreciate what Paolo and his team tried to do with it, but the quality is such a far cry from Tarilonte's stuff that I just can't bring myself to use it.



Strange, I've only heard good stuff about it.


----------



## MartinH.

Parsifal666 said:


> I have Shreddage II, and (this might be outrageously unpopular) I like Guitar Rig better


Is there a new version of Guitar Rig that I missed, that has guitar samples? I thought it was just amp sims and effects. And while Shreddage II does have some ampsim and fx kind of stuff, I always thought I'm supposed to use this in combination with a proper amp sim like Guitar Rig, so I don't quite understand your comparison between the two.



My biggest regret purchases are those that end up later being included in NI Komplete, like the Damage standalone box that I bought. In this way I hope the NI Symphony Series doesn't end up in Komplete one day, because it's among my more expensive libraries.


----------



## X-Bassist

After years of purchases, I’m sad to say Gospel Musicians Bassalicious my biggest disappointment, which I had such high hopes for I didn’t even watch a walkthrough (my bad, last time I do that), but I really expected something usable and funky. Not at all. Only a few dozen presets, almost all sound aweful, really aweful. I finially got to one preset that wasn’t terrible, and could be useful, turns out it’s the 2nd to last one! So the entire purchase comes down to one “meh” patch. Wow.

Picked it up on sale three days ago and am ready to resell. Soooo disappointed. Was also dissapointed badly by Neo Soul Studio (trying to resell that too). The UVI version of Neo Soul is excellent, that and Keyscape are my gotos (Neo soul is a little beefier, more old school sound), so I really expected much more from Neo Soul Studio and Bassalicious. So sad.


----------



## Parsifal666

X-Bassist said:


> After years of purchases, I’m sad to say Gospel Musicians Bassalicious my biggest disappointment, which I had such high hopes for I didn’t even watch a walkthrough (my bad, last time I do that), but I really expected something usable and funky. Not at all. Only a few dozen presets, almost all sound aweful, really aweful. I finially got to one preset that wasn’t terrible, and could be useful, turns out it’s the 2nd to last one! So the entire purchase comes down to one “meh” patch. Wow.
> 
> Picked it up on sale three days ago and am ready to resell. Soooo disappointed. Was also dissapointed badly by Neo Soul Studio (trying to resell that too). The UVI version of Neo Soul is excellent, that and Keyscape are my gotos (Neo soul is a little beefier, more old school sound), so I really expected much more from Neo Soul Studio and Bassalicious. So sad.



Going blind can be extremely bad. I bought all four EVOs just because I really liked 2 (Evo 2 was plenty, but 4 has some real value); bought Albion One because it was hyped as "better" than the already-quite-better-than-good Legacy.

Does anyone else see a future featuring, for instance, Spitfire (and many other) Subscription Clouds? You rent it by the month for when you need it. It might be exorbitant at first, but seems like something we're really just waiting for now and will laugh when we think of today with NFR and (still many) boxed libraries. I feel like the subscription model is inevitable for all developers, people will get tired of all the warmed over releases and NFR garbage.


----------



## Quasar

Parsifal666 said:


> ...bought Albion One because it was hyped as "better" than the already-quite-better-than-good Legacy.



I still prefer Legacy to ONE, but bought ONE because Spitfire dangled it in front of me for $99, and I think it's different enough that it's great to have both, and I like a few things better about one, such as brass in all of the ranges without octave doubling.



Parsifal666 said:


> Does anyone else see a future featuring, for instance, Spitfire (and many other) Subscription Clouds? You rent it by the month for when you need it. It might be exorbitant at first, but seems like something we're really just waiting for now and will laugh when we think of today with NFR and (still many) boxed libraries. I feel like the subscription model is inevitable for all developers, people will get tired of all the warmed over releases and NFR garbage.



I most emphatically hope that you are wrong about this. I will never under any circumstances participate in a subscription model for music software. I would quite literally smash my DAW computer to bits with a sledgehammer before I would do that...


----------



## Parsifal666

Quasar said:


> I most emphatically hope that you are wrong about this. I will never under any circumstances participate in a subscription model for music software. I would quite literally smash my DAW computer to bits with a sledgehammer before I would do that...



Quite a few pros I know welcome a subscription model with open arms. I have to admit, I'd be all over it re: Spitfire. No getting disappointed.

But hey, all respect to your thoughts on the subject.


----------



## X-Bassist

Parsifal666 said:


> Quite a few pros I know welcome a subscription model with open arms. I have to admit, I'd be all over it re: Spitfire. No getting disappointed.
> 
> But hey, all respect to your thoughts on the subject.



It sounds like it would be nice to try libraries, but the cost would be crazy once you get past a dozen or more developers, and I know I use at least 100. Granted if you could stick to only East West or Spitfire that might not be too expensive, but for me that would be seriously limiting.

Someday major developers - Spitfire, Project Sam, Orch Tools, etc might join East West in having a subscription model. People may go for it, but I hope not. Another idea is that they would all join a club and have one subscription model that covers many libraries. But I hope this is not the case, since it would rule out many smaller developers who I’ve used and loved because thier instruments are inexpensive yet beautiful. How would that work if they had to join an expensive club? How could they find a place amoung larger developers? My guess is most smaller developers would never start. Kontakt Full being a cheap tool to devlop on and sell libraries for is important to the creative libraries that are cafefully produced but may only have a small audience.

I would think your love of small, quirky libraries would make you think of this.


----------



## richardt4520

Parsifal666 said:


> I feel like the subscription model is inevitable for all developers, people will get tired of all the warmed over releases and NFR garbage.



A big AMEN to that. Can't tell you how many GBs of libraries on my SSDs that I realized weren't something I would get any real use from. But due to NFR, they're just taking up space on my drive and giving me a bitter taste toward the developers. I had no option to try them to see if they would be something I would actually use, what was actually in there so I could compare to my other libraries side-by-side in tracks, or resale to get some of my investment back. Sure. I bought it. But they already have their money for the sale. So basically, they're cock-blocking repeat customers so they can make more sells. Well, they lose my repeat business.


----------



## Parsifal666

richardt4520 said:


> A big AMEN to that. Can't tell you how many GBs of libraries on my SSDs that I realized weren't something I would get any real use from. But due to NFR, they're just taking up space on my drive and giving me a bitter taste toward the developers. I had no option to try them to see if they would be something I would actually use, what was actually in there so I could compare to my other libraries side-by-side in tracks, or resale to get some of my investment back. Sure. I bought it. But they already have their money for the sale. So basically, they're cock-blocking repeat customers so they can make more sells. Well, they lose my repeat business.



I'm predicting it's a matter of time. But hey, I could be completely wrong, and I do own a terrific collection of libraries already.


----------



## Wunderhorn

I cannot understand anyone favoring a subscription model. It is an invitation for developers to be slacking (see Adobe), also, in such a case you'd be bound to some kind of cloud bondage and you open yourself for all kind of data harvesting and potential privacy invasion.
Also, it would open the question whether the music is still yours after you quit the subscription if it contains sounds of a library to which you have no rights anymore?
In the end the power of decision needs to stay with the customer when he or she wants to invest in new library material, when to update etc. Everything else adds just more stress to say the least.


----------



## Parsifal666

Well geez, I never had a single problem with Composer Cloud (besides the usual bugs using EW brings). In fact, seems to me EW has a winning idea there. Hard to believe others wouldn't follow suit.

But hey, again I could be totally wrong and I'm probably being a repetitive old bastaad anyhoo. Time for me to watch *Chainsaw* and uh, relax!

Hope everyone has a wonderful week!


----------



## richardt4520

Wunderhorn said:


> I cannot understand anyone favoring a subscription model.


The reason I would like it is to get to try before buying. That's it. It would save me a lot of money actually.


----------



## Quasar

richardt4520 said:


> The reason I would like it is to get to try before buying. That's it. It would save me a lot of money actually.



Devs should have either a demo option, a resale option or of some sort or a money-back policy (as Realitone does). If end users demanded their software rights more forcefully, you wouldn't need to impose another bad, privacy-invading ripoff system to "fix" the unpleasant consequences of another.

I'm all in favor of subscriptions, dongles, online activation or whatever as long as such exists as a choice instead of as a requirement.

And in an age where there are so many reviews (honest and otherwise), walkthough tutorials, downloadable manuals and sound demos, it shouldn't be too hard to purchase a library without being completely surprised by how it sounds and behaves...


----------



## richardt4520

Quasar said:


> And in an age where there are so many reviews (honest and otherwise), walkthough tutorials, downloadable manuals and sound demos, it shouldn't be too hard to purchase a library without being completely surprised by how it sounds and behaves...



That's true sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. For example, Sonixinema's Hybrid Scoring Strings. The demos sound cool. So do the playthroughs. Almost every one of them I've come across play through the highlights, which are cool. The patch list online looks enormous. So you think there's a lot of great stuff there. Then you get it and realize that almost every playthrough you've seen was the good 8 or 9% of stuff that exists there and the rest is just basically the same patches (and a lot of other bad ones) run through a distortion pedal and called by other names. That was a cheap one and only taking up about 18GB of space so no big loss. Just an example though. I'm not trying to knock the product. Some may find those useful. But I don't and I'm stuck with it.


----------



## Quasar

richardt4520 said:


> That's true sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. For example, Sonixinema's Hybrid Scoring Strings. The demos sound cool. So do the playthroughs. Almost every one of them I've come across play through the highlights, which are cool. The patch list online looks enormous. So you think there's a lot of great stuff there. Then you get it and realize that almost every playthrough you've seen was the good 8 or 9% of stuff that exists there and the rest is just basically the same patches (and a lot of other bad ones) run through a distortion pedal and called by other names. That was a cheap one and only taking up about 18GB of space so no big loss. Just an example though. I'm not trying to knock the product. Some may find those useful. But I don't and I'm stuck with it.



Yeah I hear you. It's not as fair as it could and should be... We all have our subjective differences in what we value more, and there's no right and wrong to it. For me, CP that tethers me to a remote server or a third party driver is far more oppressive than the inability to resell or demo, because I value offline workstation privacy and autonomy more than anything. I'm not a pro, I don't see software as an "investment", and figure that people go to movies they dislike, eat at restaurants they dislike, take vacations during which they have a terrible time etc. and don't get their money back. So if I waste some money on a bad library purchase once in a while "C'est la vie, money comes and goes..."

...But other people have different sensibilities. Their workstation may be online all the time and they don't mind applications "phoning home" or demanding USB ports or whatever, but resent spending money and not getting good value. It's just another POV.

BTW, I got the Sonixinema HSS a while back too, because it was on sale/inexpensive, and it's sort of a tangled random collection of I'm-not-sure-what... Live and learn.


----------



## X-Bassist

richardt4520 said:


> That's true sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. For example, Sonixinema's Hybrid Scoring Strings. The demos sound cool. So do the playthroughs. Almost every one of them I've come across play through the highlights, which are cool. The patch list online looks enormous. So you think there's a lot of great stuff there. Then you get it and realize that almost every playthrough you've seen was the good 8 or 9% of stuff that exists there and the rest is just basically the same patches (and a lot of other bad ones) run through a distortion pedal and called by other names. That was a cheap one and only taking up about 18GB of space so no big loss. Just an example though. I'm not trying to knock the product. Some may find those useful. But I don't and I'm stuck with it.



Ironically this is one of the libraries I liked, but I did need to save my favorite presets-about 40 or 50- that I liked best (mainly the Evo type background string sounds and the sfx whooshes) This helps when I have to search through them later. I agree the amount of presets is excessive (many are different effected versions of the same sample), which bloats the library.

Even Signal, which has a lot of great sounds, can be whittled down to 100 or so patches (out of 500) which is also about a 20 percent success rate. Pretty good actually compared to some others. Most synths of the past have been this way for me-10 to 20 percent cool sounds surround by beep, boop, ho-humm..


----------



## richardt4520

I hear ya! That's what I meant about trying things out. Some people will find no use for something and others will find diamonds in it! haha It's up to the vendor though. Some let you resale, some will work with you to keep you happy, and some just don't give a [email protected] 

I've even had a very well known vendor, who I had one of their products sitting on my drive for over a year, bought expansions for it, etc and still could not find any use for it as much as I tried. It was past a year so they wouldn't let me resell BUT they allowed me to exchange it for another product that I could use. Now THAT'S service, imo. Unbelievable! So I bought more of their stuff because I felt so good about it! haha


----------



## richardt4520

Quasar said:


> Yeah I hear you. It's not as fair as it could and should be... We all have our subjective differences in what we value more, and there's no right and wrong to it. For me, CP that tethers me to a remote server or a third party driver is far more oppressive than the inability to resell or demo, because I value offline workstation privacy and autonomy more than anything. I'm not a pro, I don't see software as an "investment", and figure that people go to movies they dislike, eat at restaurants they dislike, take vacations during which they have a terrible time etc. and don't get their money back. So if I waste some money on a bad library purchase once in a while "C'est la vie, money comes and goes..."
> 
> ...But other people have different sensibilities. Their workstation may be online all the time and they don't mind applications "phoning home" or demanding USB ports or whatever, but resent spending money and not getting good value. It's just another POV.
> 
> BTW, I got the Sonixinema HSS a while back too, because it was on sale/inexpensive, and it's sort of a tangled random collection of I'm-not-sure-what... Live and learn.



Oh I hear ya! Luckily my meals don't run as much as Loegria at full price. Usually! haha I get everything you're saying! I know software vendors in business to make money, no matter how "feel good" their marketing campaigns are. It would be nice if some of the ones who were on the higher end would bend a little on either resale or demos, though. A short subscription option would allow the try-before-buy but I don't see that happening when they're doing fine on their sales, regardless. It would be a nice gesture to customers, though.


----------



## SchnookyPants

Ontario, CA = becomes legal Oct. 17. Just so ya' know.


----------



## Parsifal666

SchnookyPants said:


> Ontario, CA = becomes legal Oct. 17. Just so ya' know.



Legal in this New England region! Shoulda been legal nationwide decades ago.


----------



## Quasar

Parsifal666 said:


> Legal in this New England region! Shoulda been legal nationwide decades ago.


It is criminally insane that it was ever made illegal to begin with.


----------



## Parsifal666

Quasar said:


> It is criminally insane that it was ever made illegal to begin with.



You are very easy to agree with, Quasar!


----------



## SchnookyPants

Parsifal666 said:


> You are very easy to agree with, Quasar!


Could be the Hemp.


----------



## damayor

I know I'll get hate for some of these but

Pearl grand
Piano in blue
Keyscape
Cinesamples voxos
Cinesamples cinebrass core and pro

A bunch more but those come to mind


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Quasar said:


> It is criminally insane that it was ever made illegal to begin with.




hemp was a threat to cotton.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

damayor said:


> I know I'll get hate for some of these but
> 
> Pearl grand
> Piano in blue
> Keyscape
> Cinesamples voxos
> Cinesamples cinebrass core and pro
> 
> A bunch more but those come to mind


Can you expand?
I don’t have Piano in Blue or Keyscape but I know they’re fairly highly regarded here and would like to know what you’re unhappy with. It’s the sort of thing that helps me in decision making. Keyscape just seems like way more than I need. One thing that has become apparent to me is that not everyone is in the same position and what you want/need isn’t the same. So, one library may be an excellent choice for an individual and they will say so (as they should), it might not be the best fit for another. It might sound like I’m stating the bleeding obvious there but, it’s easy to get caught up in the hype sometimes. Especially when there’s a lot of positive feedback on a library. I’ve purchased previously and then somewhat regretted it as I hadn’t taken the time to fully evaluate what it was and if I needed it. Not that the library was bad but I didn’t really need it and that can lead to a degree of buyers remorse.


----------



## damayor

For starters I didn't like the huge foot print for just the C7 I needed. It took a while to load as well. I felt I got better sounds from other libraries. Didn't really like how you can't edit the release. At least I never figured out a way. I didn't mind the sound, but it was over kill as I only wanted the C7 and won't ever use the other pianos. The ram hit was a pain too. Personally I find I get easier and better okaying from my library library. Albeit, I haven't used it since about a week after it came out. Kinda deleted it and moved on after I seen there was no release editing option. I might load it up and give it another go.


----------



## Salohcin894

Greg said:


> Spitfire Phobos. So far from what I thought it was that I uninstalled it and wrote it off as an impulsive disaster buy.





MillsMixx said:


> *8Dio Agitato Legato Arpeggio* (What good are the ostinato phrases if they don't loop. Useless library and waste of money)
> *8Dio Aura Guitars *(Poor interface and usability)
> *Spitfire Phobos* (I don't really resonate with it so far and doubt I'll use it much)
> *Sample Logic Rhythmology*
> too many others not worth mentioning



Oh man, what did you guys think you were getting compared to what you got? Asking only because I've been so interested in Phobos and want to see if I'm going down the same path.


----------



## Geoff Grace

damayor said:


> For starters I didn't like the huge foot print for just the C7 I needed. It took a while to load as well. I felt I got better sounds from other libraries. Didn't really like how you can't edit the release. At least I never figured out a way. I didn't mind the sound, but it was over kill as I only wanted the C7 and won't ever use the other pianos. The ram hit was a pain too. Personally I find I get easier and better okaying from my library library. Albeit, I haven't used it since about a week after it came out. Kinda deleted it and moved on after I seen there was no release editing option. I might load it up and give it another go.


I had a hunch this would be why you didn't like Keyscape. Its C7 is better than most but no reason to buy the whole collection. The Rhodes and Clavinet, on the other hand, are among the best available, and the other keyboards in the collection range from very good to great. Last but not least, if you have Omnisphere 2, you can access the free Keyscape Creative library, which by itself could be worth the price of admission. But, of course, if you don't want or need these, then the point is moot.

If all you're looking for is a great C7, I highly recommend Production Voices Production Grand 2. Be forewarned, it too has a large footprint; but in this case, it's worth it, IMHO.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## jcrosby

richardt4520 said:


> The reason I would like it is to get to try before buying. That's it. It would save me a lot of money actually.


But you'd be paying to demo a product.

If you wanted to test drive a car you were interested in, and a dealership required you to sign up for a paid monthly membership in order to do so, I can't imagine you wouldn't be somewhat turned off from that dealership.

AFAIC the inability to demo sample libraries is unbelievably archaic. "Walkthrough" videos being pushed as the only acceptable substitute even moreso...



richardt4520 said:


> The demos sound cool. So do the playthroughs. Almost every one of them I've come across play through the highlights, which are cool. The patch list online looks enormous. So you think there's a lot of great stuff there. Then you get it and realize that almost every playthrough you've seen was the good 8 or 9% of stuff that exists there and the rest is just basically the same patches (and a lot of other bad ones) run through a distortion pedal and called by other names.


 Case In Point.


----------



## richardt4520

jcrosby said:


> But you'd be paying to demo a product. Case In Point.



You are 100% correct and i agree! But i can't think of any other option to spur some of these companies to offer some way of actually trying the products for free to see if you actually need them or not since they won't even allow resell. But i totally agree!


----------



## Quasar

damayor said:


> I know I'll get hate for some of these but
> 
> Pearl grand
> Piano in blue
> Keyscape
> Cinesamples voxos
> Cinesamples cinebrass core and pro
> 
> A bunch more but those come to mind



I have none of these. But re the pianos, it occurs to me that keyboard instruments - if one is using a decent digital MIDI piano bed - are the _only _virtual instruments in which the action of triggering the notes is physically the same as it is with its real instrument counterpart (though drums with drum pads can be sort of similar depending on your triggering hardware), so I've never understood collecting lots of them for different moods etc. It seems if you have a good library (or modeled Pianoteq) you're all set, because you don't need the equivalent of unusual violin bowing techniques for a piano. The physical act of triggering the note is the technique.

As much as I adore Omnisphere and respect Spectrasonics, Keyscape immediately struck me on launch as as an overkill bordering on the bizarre; the VI equivalent of a rich person who collects antique sports cars and has a warehouse full of them as opposed to just having a car for transportation, or maybe one car, one truck and one motorcycle even...

I've only heard good things about Cinebrass, so am curious about this...


----------



## damayor

Quasar said:


> I have none of these. But re the pianos, it occurs to me that keyboard instruments - if one is using a decent digital MIDI piano bed - are the _only _virtual instruments in which the action of triggering the notes is physically the same as it is with its real instrument counterpart (though drums with drum pads can be sort of similar depending on your triggering hardware), so I've never understood collecting lots of them for different moods etc. It seems if you have a good library (or modeled Pianoteq) you're all set, because you don't need the equivalent of unusual violin bowing techniques for a piano. The physical act of triggering the note is the technique.
> 
> As much as I adore Omnisphere and respect Spectrasonics, Keyscape immediately struck me on launch as as an overkill bordering on the bizarre; the VI equivalent of a rich person who collects antique sports cars and has a warehouse full of them as opposed to just having a car for transportation, or maybe one car, one truck and one motorcycle even...
> 
> I've only heard good things about Cinebrass, so am curious about this...




with pianos you have how well the mids, low, hammers, resonance, pedals, velocities etc are recorded. even the scripting comes into play on how playable it is. I can clearly tell a difference in all the pianos I have. I use each one for different things and sometimes some sit better in mixes then others. Keyscape I do find extremely bloated for what I need it for. However, my main gripe was lack of adsr in the interface.


----------



## Loïc D

Parsifal666 said:


> Wow, you should check out 1 2 and 3 now with Play. It's so eclectic, one of the best drum libraries I've owned, period.


Thanks for your feedback Parsifal, now I'm curious.
I had the original SD and for some reasons it was quite unplayable and thus uninspiring.
I'll definitely take a look at the latest versions.


----------



## R. Soul

For me, I'm most disappointed with large, comprehensive (and expensive) libraries, cause I end up using 5-10% of the content.

So most of the stuff I've bought from East west - RA, MOR, VOP, Storm drum 3, EW Gold and things like Symphobia are definitely regrets. 

Now, this might be my own fault as much as the libraries', but I can't help feeling that most libraries lack in depth tutorials. Most just supply a really dry manual that looks like it's written by an engineer, not a composer.


----------



## silentunion

Quasar said:


> I have none of these. But re the pianos, it occurs to me that keyboard instruments - if one is using a decent digital MIDI piano bed - are the _only _virtual instruments in which the action of triggering the notes is physically the same as it is with its real instrument counterpart (though drums with drum pads can be sort of similar depending on your triggering hardware), so I've never understood collecting lots of them for different moods etc. It seems if you have a good library (or modeled Pianoteq) you're all set, because you don't need the equivalent of unusual violin bowing techniques for a piano. The physical act of triggering the note is the technique.
> 
> As much as I adore Omnisphere and respect Spectrasonics, Keyscape immediately struck me on launch as as an overkill bordering on the bizarre; the VI equivalent of a rich person who collects antique sports cars and has a warehouse full of them as opposed to just having a car for transportation, or maybe one car, one truck and one motorcycle even...
> 
> I've only heard good things about Cinebrass, so am curious about this...



I am exactly this way with piano. I've played piano since I was 6 years old. I learned all the theory, etc, so I feel like I, of all people, should be among the pickiest of piano users. I am to some degree, but I find that even the pianos from the NI Komplete bundle work as advertised. I use Alicia's Keys as a general use piano, the Giant for more larger sounds, the Grandeur for a more concert hall sound. They work! I'll try different reverbs and delays for effect for different results. (oh I got the Spitfire Labs piano too which I like for certain occasions or even for doubling another piano)

Don't get my wrong as I'm sure there are some piano libraries I could probably get down the road, but seeing as I have bigger gaps in my libraries at the moment, the last thing I need is another piano.

As far as bad purchases go for me, I bought a couple of Bowed Guitars thinking "oh I want to be different". Probably more a result of me not knowing what I wanted during Black Friday last year.


----------



## Parsifal666

silentunion said:


> I am exactly this way with piano. I've played piano since I was 6 years old. I learned all the theory, etc, so I feel like I, of all people, should be among the pickiest of piano users. I am to some degree, but I find that even the pianos from the NI Komplete bundle work as advertised. I use Alicia's Keys as a general use piano, the Giant for more larger sounds, the Grandeur for a more concert hall sound. They work! I'll try different reverbs and delays for effect for different results. (oh I got the Spitfire Labs piano too which I like for certain occasions or even for doubling another piano)
> 
> Don't get my wrong as I'm sure there are some piano libraries I could probably get down the road, but seeing as I have bigger gaps in my libraries at the moment, the last thing I need is another piano.
> .



Just remember: once you have Garritan CFX, you're all good, period. 

imo of course


----------



## Geoff Grace

I find that most sampled pianos work reasonably well in an ensemble setting. It's when the size is reduced to jazz trio or smaller that the flaws are more exposed—especially when it comes to damper pedal.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## kitekrazy

Kirk Hunter devised a way of demoing a library. ProjectSam use to do demo patches.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

I think also a "try for free" thing on Best Service, but I have never tried it.


----------



## pderbidge

MartinH. said:


> Is there a new version of Guitar Rig that I missed, that has guitar samples? I thought it was just amp sims and effects. And while Shreddage II does have some ampsim and fx kind of stuff, I always thought I'm supposed to use this in combination with a proper amp sim like Guitar Rig, so I don't quite understand your comparison between the two.
> .


You're right, I think Parsifal666 must have got his lines crossed somewhere, I know I'm guilty of doing that a time or two. Shreddage is a guitar library whereas Guitar Rig is Amp Sims and effects. Not even a comparison. Shreddage is designed to be used with Amp sims like Guitar Rig. I think those that have a hard time with Shreddage compared to MOR may be due to this fact that it is designed to be used with Amp Sims and then tweaked with Velocity and/or key switches the same as any other Guitar VST in this class. My guess is those who favor MOR over Shreddage may also have a hard time with Orange Tree Samples guitars and AmpleSound.


----------



## silentunion

Parsifal666 said:


> Believe me, if Ark 1 had been my first ensemble library I would have wrote even more overblown junk than I do now!!!
> 
> I get super epic with the libraries I mentioned...in some ways better than Ark. But that's just me, as I said Met Ark 1 is still a pretty darn badass library imo.
> 
> I started out with rock and heavy metal music as a kid (mostly the latter), so Wagner (and Met Ark 1 for that matter) were pretty obviously going to be in my future lol! I just get sounds that make me happier with Iceni, Hollywood, etc. Keep in mind, I must always tag at the end "engineering ability", without that MA1 would have been a constant staple for my epics.



I just saw this. I literally have bought Met Ark 1 as my first library and I'm often a soft composer (I have my reasons though). I feel ready to sit in my office chair of epicness and.... do something extreme... or something....


----------



## Alex Niedt

At the moment, I regret British Drama Toolkit more than anything.


----------



## mouse

Alex Niedt said:


> At the moment, I regret British Drama Toolkit more than anything.



Whys that?


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Alex Niedt said:


> At the moment, I regret British Drama Toolkit more than anything.


Really? Please expand. I’m on the edge of purchasing so would like to know why it doesn’t work for you.


----------



## Alex Niedt

To me, it's essentially a limited and forgettable textural pad library with no mod wheel control (not sure how it's a "toolkit" like the other Spitfire Toolkits). The Texture and Soft layers are nice while holding sustained notes, but I find the Loud layers pretty useless, as they would be better suited to legato programming. This is the only Spitfire library I've bought and immediately drowned out with other Spitfire libraries as soon as I started playing with it. If you rarely change notes and don't already own a bunch of Evo-type libraries, you may love this, but I still regret paying $150, even though I was happy to pay over twice as much for Solo Strings.


----------



## AR

Dominus Choir for me. It's like the one purchase that everyone here did by clicking the "Buy" button a little bit to fast. Sorry to hear so many disappointments about BDT. I'm now careful about buying a blind bargain these days, especially when it takes a company just a few months in preparing. Look how long it still takes to release the spitfire choir library.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Alex Niedt said:


> To me, it's essentially a limited and forgettable textural pad library with no mod wheel control (not sure how it's a "toolkit" like the other Spitfire Toolkits). The Texture and Soft layers are nice while holding sustained notes, but I find the Loud layers pretty useless, as they would be better suited to legato programming. This is the only Spitfire library I've bought and immediately drowned out with other Spitfire libraries as soon as I started playing with it. If you rarely change notes and don't already own a bunch of Evo-type libraries, you may love this, but I still regret paying $150, even though I was happy to pay over twice as much for Solo Strings.


Thank you, and I just read your other post in the BDT response thread.


----------



## Brian Nowak

damayor said:


> I know I'll get hate for some of these but
> 
> Pearl grand
> Piano in blue
> Keyscape
> Cinesamples voxos
> Cinesamples cinebrass core and pro
> 
> A bunch more but those come to mind



What did Cinebrass do that upset you?


----------



## Parsifal666

Brian Nowak said:


> What did Cinebrass do that upset you?



Slapped my mama.


----------



## Giscard Rasquin

AR said:


> Dominus Choir for me. It's like the one purchase that everyone here did by clicking the "Buy" button a little bit to fast. Sorry to hear so many disappointments about BDT. I'm now careful about buying a blind bargain these days, especially when it takes a company just a few months in preparing. Look how long it still takes to release the spitfire choir library.



I saw some really good reviews about Dominus so ended up buying it during the current sale but haven´t had time yet to have a good look at it.
Why don´t you like it?


----------



## Brian Nowak

Parsifal666 said:


> Slapped my mama.



Did Ark 1 run her over with a bus?


----------



## Parsifal666

Brian Nowak said:


> Did Ark 1 run her over with a bus?



_*Choir by* *Walküren!*_


----------



## jcrosby

richardt4520 said:


> You are 100% correct and i agree! But i can't think of any other option to spur some of these companies to offer some way of actually trying the products for free to see if you actually need them or not since they won't even allow resell. But i totally agree!


Oh I totally understand! The point is is that there has to be some kind of solution that the inability to demo products isn't acceptable. This archaic model of walkthrough videos somehow being a considered a replacement for an actual product demo is out of touch with the sheer amount of sample developers competing.

And absolutely, the inability to sell libraries is even more archaic. Of all developers that should, in theory, allow this its East West as iLok license can be sold and transfered, and are all the time... The matter of East West actually doing it? That's another issue altogether... They're not necessarily the most courteous of companies... (At least in my experience.)


----------



## Batrawi

...I'm sure someone must have posted this before. But just in case....."N"


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Batrawi said:


> ...I'm sure someone must have posted this before. But just in case....."N"


Nooooooooooooooooooooo!


----------



## Michael Stibor

For me, definitely Spitfire Albion (legacy). I bought it based on reputation. It was between that and Project Sam orchestra essentials or whatever it's called. Definitely should have gone with Project Sam. 
Not crazy about Spitfire Bernard Hermann either. I knew what I was getting into, but I just find a lot of the patches are completely useless. I recognize that it's a musical thing more than a quality issue in this case.
Also, bought Cinematic Studio Strings and sort of regret it. It's just not the be all end all that everyone made it out to be. It's a little washed out sounding for my taste. Also, I prefer dryer samples.


----------



## Geoff Grace

mikefrommontreal said:


> Also, I prefer dryer samples.


Well, you could always take a portable recording device to a laundromat and capture your own samples.

...Oh, wait! Did you mean drier samples?

_(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)_

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Parsifal666

Geoff Grace said:


> Well, you could always take a portable recording device to a laundromat and capture your own samples.
> 
> ...Oh, wait! Did you mean drier samples?
> 
> _(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)_
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



BWA!


----------



## AR

GuitarG said:


> I saw some really good reviews about Dominus so ended up buying it during the current sale but haven´t had time yet to have a good look at it.
> Why don´t you like it?


Probably the sound. I used it once for the Handel coronation tune in a feature film. But that's it. Now its laying around on one of my hard drives and eating up space. 
Sonokinetics Tutti Vox is not versatile when it comes to word building, but that sound is top notch. When I write legato passages I stick to Ark 1 & 2.


----------



## Satorious

mikefrommontreal said:


> For me, definitely Spitfire Albion (legacy)


Hmmm, definitely at the other end of this spectrum - this is how I feel with Albion One. I bought off the back of Albion (legacy), it sounded like the perfect solution for those faster string lines which the original would struggle with. After playing my ears just heard this horrible cold synthetic sound. The original (for its flaws) has far nicer/warmer tone which I find myself using regularly. I've never used one of the standard orchestral patches from Albion One (suspect I never will).


----------



## ChristianM

Geoff Grace said:


> Well, you could always take a portable recording device to a laundromat and capture your own samples.
> 
> ...Oh, wait! Did you mean drier samples?
> 
> _(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)_
> 
> Best,
> 
> Geoff



after the dry samples, after the wet samples, here are the shake samples!


----------



## lucianogiacomozzi

Satorious said:


> Hmmm, definitely at the other end of this spectrum - this is how I feel with Albion One. I bought off the back of Albion (legacy), it sounded like the perfect solution for those faster string lines which the original would struggle with. After playing my ears just heard this horrible cold synthetic sound. The original (for its flaws) has far nicer/warmer tone which I find myself using regularly. I've never used one of the standard orchestral patches from Albion One (suspect I never will).



Same here, loved the original 2 Albions (I and II) but Albion ONE just sounds horrendous, tone wise! I only use some of the brass for layering and percussion patches on occasion.


----------



## axb312

Karl Feuerstake said:


> 8Dio Century Brass. Just didn't do what I was expecting it to, and don't expect I'll actually get any use out of it in the future.


Can you expand on this please?


----------



## Guy Rowland

lucianogiacomozzi said:


> Same here, loved the original 2 Albions (I and II) but Albion ONE just sounds horrendous, tone wise! I only use some of the brass for layering and percussion patches on occasion.



Wow - this really is marmite as I couldn't possibly disagree more. Albion 1 legacy strings in particular have always sounded a synth to me - and a noisy, clunky inconsistent synth at that. Just horrible, I've never got why anyone was enthused about it. I got it for free when I bought Albion ONE in the promo thing, and uninstalled it very quickly. The strings in ONE however I find absolutely gorgeous - warm and buttery. Most of my string libraries are quite bright, this is for when I need a mellower / richer tone. And the range in the shorts is superb. Brass and winds I find meh - not terrible, but inferior to other alternatives I have.

(what is this terrible N library people speak of?!!)


----------



## Satorious

Different strokes for different folks... As longs as the end result is good, it doesn't matter which you prefer or which one inspires you. I guess the point to take away here is that these two libraries are very different from each other. I bought ONE expecting a similar tone to Albion 1/2 (Loegria), hence the "disappointment" part.

Are you referring to the legacy section Guy (which I think come bundled in one of the folders with Albion ONE)? I can't be certain, but I was under the impression this was just a cut-down version of Albion 1. Love your Project SAM walk-throughs btw (but my bank account is less keen)!


----------



## star.keys

Spitfire Solo Strings

Reminds me of the moment when I decided to put my money into the drain


----------



## Parsifal666

Guy Rowland said:


> Wow - this really is marmite as I couldn't possibly disagree more. Albion 1 legacy strings in particular have always sounded a synth to me - and a noisy, clunky inconsistent synth at that. Just horrible, I've never got why anyone was enthused about it. I got it for free when I bought Albion ONE in the promo thing, and uninstalled it very quickly. The strings in ONE however I find absolutely gorgeous - warm and buttery. Most of my string libraries are quite bright, this is for when I need a mellower / richer tone. And the range in the shorts is superb. Brass and winds I find meh - not terrible, but inferior to other alternatives I have.
> 
> (what is this terrible N library people speak of?!!)



I would like to respectfully ask that you give the Albion Legacy strings another try. You might be surprised, and I would say it's more than worth another download. In fact, Legacy overall is more than worth trying again, really.

I could be wrong.


----------



## Andrew

star.keys said:


> Spitfire Solo Strings
> 
> Reminds me of the moment when I decided to put my money into the drain



Are you referring to the now defunct solo strings (which were on a fire sale not too long ago) or the new solo strings released this year?


----------



## pderbidge

Guy Rowland said:


> Wow - this really is marmite as I couldn't possibly disagree more. Albion 1 legacy strings in particular have always sounded a synth to me - and a noisy, clunky inconsistent synth at that. Just horrible, I've never got why anyone was enthused about it. I got it for free when I bought Albion ONE in the promo thing, and uninstalled it very quickly. The strings in ONE however I find absolutely gorgeous - warm and buttery. Most of my string libraries are quite bright, this is for when I need a mellower / richer tone. And the range in the shorts is superb. Brass and winds I find meh - not terrible, but inferior to other alternatives I have.
> 
> (what is this terrible N library people speak of?!!)


Regardless of the fact that some might like the originals string tones over One I think it's undebatable that Albion One has far superior shorts. They are just great.


----------



## star.keys

Andrew said:


> Are you referring to the now defunct solo strings (which were on a fire sale not too long ago) or the new solo strings released this year?



New Solo Strings


----------



## Parsifal666

star.keys said:


> New Solo Strings



WOW! Glad I skipped it.


----------



## Parsifal666

pderbidge said:


> Regardless of the fact that some might like the originals string tones over One I think it's undebatable that Albion One has far superior shorts. They are just great.



I do really like the Spicc/Stacc combination on A1. And imo the legato woodwinds aren't bad at all. For the most part though the long strings in A1 sound very synthy to me (and yes I like the longs in Legacy better).

But that's just me. Those aforementioned AL longs just happen to fit into my projects, that's how I based my opinion. Probably doesn't work for others, no problem. 

I should mention that I only ever use any of Albion One for sketching...for shorts I generally default to Hollywood (most of the time for longs, too). 8dio Adagio has some useful shorts as well imo, especially for the solos but there are some fine ensemble patches there imo.


----------



## Guy Rowland

Satorious said:


> Are you referring to the legacy section Guy (which I think come bundled in one of the folders with Albion ONE)? I can't be certain, but I was under the impression this was just a cut-down version of Albion 1. Love your Project SAM walk-throughs btw (but my bank account is less keen)!



No, I have the whole original library. Before ONE was released, they had a deal to buy the legacy version then get a free upgrade to ONE. So I tried those original strings, hands on. I had low expectations it's true, and these low expectations were not met. Just terrible - incredibly noisy, literally clunky and overall synthy. I took the view then and now that they were beyond redemption, which is why they decided to redo them from scratch.

Very surprised to hear folks not getting on with the ONE strings. I basically think of ONE as a string library and more or less ignore the rest. Best legatos they've ever done imo, with the caveat that they're in in various combos of 8va etc. No buyers remorse for me there.

(what IS this N library?!!)


----------



## Mike Fox

Guy Rowland said:


> No, I have the whole original library. Before ONE was released, they had a deal to buy the legacy version then get a free upgrade to ONE. So I tried those original strings, hands on. I had low expectations it's true, and these low expectations were not met. Just terrible - incredibly noisy, literally clunky and overall synthy. I took the view then and now that they were beyond redemption, which is why they decided to redo them from scratch.
> 
> Very surprised to hear folks not getting on with the ONE strings. I basically think of ONE as a string library and more or less ignore the rest. Best legatos they've ever done imo, with the caveat that they're in in various combos of 8va etc. No buyers remorse for me there.
> 
> (what IS this N library?!!)


My biggest problem with the ONE strings are the short articulations in the higher register. They sound really fake to me. Everything else ounds pretty good though.

Btw, good to see you around Guy! 

(N is an ongoing joke for a library that doesn't exist. There was a thread in the Commercial Accouncements area that just said "N". It snowballed from there.)


----------



## Mike Fox

Batrawi said:


> ...I'm sure someone must have posted this before. But just in case....."N"


I agree. There was so much hype around N, but when I actually played it, I was immediately forced to file a credit card chargeback.


----------



## LamaRose

Guy Rowland said:


> (what IS this N library?!!)



The fish that always gets away... a snipe hunt down the rabbit hole. The Id of VST fantasies. The ultimate Sample particle... ameN


----------



## holywilly

star.keys said:


> New Solo Strings


+1

Way too much vibrato yields synthy sound.


----------



## LamaRose

Mike Fox said:


> ... a library that doesn't exist.



Do you realize how many children on these forums will be crushed if they read this? For the children, please... lie.


----------



## MarcelM

hollywood strings silver. gold/diamond ofcourse are very nice, but the missing dynamic layer in silver was disapointing.


----------



## Parsifal666

LamaRose said:


> The fish that always gets away... a snipe hunt down the rabbit hole. The Id of VST fantasies. The ultimate Sample particle... ameN



Perhaps N= The John Williams Composer Toolkit

Tell me who _wouldn't _want that?


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Parsifal666 said:


> Perhaps N= The John Williams Composer Toolkit
> 
> Tell me who _wouldn't _want that?


I've heard that once you get N, it cures you of the need to buy any more libraries.


----------



## kurtvanzo

Really sorry I picked up the 8Dio instant acoustic, even at $18 (or was it $28?). My first purchase that doesn’t get past the first few minutes of playing.

Sounded great in the walkthrough and demos but after playing it just a few minutes I find:

Strum not looping is a huge failure, perhaps it has to do with their engine/programming since the string arppegio is the same way, but really it screws both these libraries from being used much (maybe that’s the point and Troell’s owns he only versions that loop? Brilliant!)

Strums are limited and very mechanical unless your music is very white bread (Ok, maybe it would work for a Honda commercial, but they don’t seem to call me for a gig often  )

The solo guitar has a dry settings that could work, but the sound is not as nice as Ilya Efimov Acoustic or Realitone Fingerpick or Indigeous Renagade Acoustic, all of which sell for much less than this at it’s normal price. The other settings are badly designed effected versions of the dry signal. Not much I can use as all of them are a bit odd and need work (eq, outside effects, ect).

Which leads me to believe even the walkthrough video has a bit of outside plugin work going on. Really a shame to find out what comes out of the box is not what’s in the video. And how do they set their list prices? Conducting a company game of “how high can we go?” until someone shouts “that’s way too high!”... then they double it? Crazy. I’m sure it’s only so whan they do a half price sale everyone jumps because they can never normally afford it, yet 8Dio still makes out like bandits.

And no, having even worse instruments at $20 doesn’t help. It only confirms their questionable programming quality. After all they’ve messed up, I’m surprised people still get excited about more new strings from them. Even at $188, what good is it if programming or (yikes) tuning is off. And lets not forget lack of positioning, unwillingness to correct obvious issues (adagio) and no resales. Yet there are still many willing to throw more money at them. Double crazy.

I’d rather paypal money to “n”, sight unseen.... ok, I see my problem now.


----------



## Funkybot

For me it's Cinesamples Abbey Road Classic Upright Pianos. There's probably no sample library I want more than these particular pianos (Mrs. Mills and Challen anyway) sampled well, but this isn't it. Problems with the library include:

1. Pianos are out of tune (I understand you don't want these perfectly in tune as the chorusing is part of the effect, but center frequencies are off)

2. Inconsistent sample start times. They kept some of the action noise at the start of each note, but the duration of the noise (pre-note) wildly varies from note to note so it just sounds sloppy and feel terrible to play. My guess? They didn't feel like editing each sample manually, so just loaded the recordings into a batch job, set a single volume threshold, then pressed the "Batch Process" button to automatically trim the samples and left it at that.

3. The biggest sin? The TERRIBLE velocity mapping and sample selection. These were just poorly sampled from the get-go by someone at Abbey Road (Cinesamples support confirmed that they did not make the samples), and Cinesamples put absolutely minimal effort into selecting good samples and mapping them for smooth playback. Every single key has the same number of velocity layers, that are distributed at the exact same velocities, indicating to me that the pianos were just put into some batch mapping program. So not only do you regularly trigger what's a poor sounding sample, they didn't do anything to smooth out the response.

It doesn't have any of the piano-specific features you'd expect to see in a $200 library either. 

What does it do well? The pianos are THE exact piano sounds you hear on everything from The Beatles, and Zombies to Elliott Smith, which you just can't get from other libraries. And they offer a few microphone positions. But overall, I would not repurchase it. Wish someone who could do pianos well could work with Abbey Road to make a much better version of these instruments.


----------



## kurtvanzo

Funkybot said:


> For me it's Cinesamples Abbey Road Classic Upright Pianos. There's probably no sample library I want more than these particular pianos (Mrs. Mills and Challen anyway) sampled well, but this isn't it. Problems with the library include:
> 
> 1. Pianos are out of tune (I understand you don't want these perfectly in tune as the chorusing is part of the effect, but center frequencies are off)
> 
> 2. Inconsistent sample start times. They kept some of the action noise at the start of each note, but the duration of the noise (pre-note) wildly varies from note to note so it just sounds sloppy and feel terrible to play. My guess? They didn't feel like editing each sample manually, so just loaded the recordings into a batch job, set a single volume threshold, then pressed the "Batch Process" button to automatically trim the samples and left it at that.
> 
> 3. The biggest sin? The TERRIBLE velocity mapping and sample selection. These were just poorly sampled from the get-go by someone at Abbey Road (Cinesamples support confirmed that they did not make the samples), and Cinesamples put absolutely minimal effort into selecting good samples and mapping them for smooth playback. Every single key has the same number of velocity layers, that are distributed at the exact same velocities, indicating to me that the pianos were just put into some batch mapping program. So not only do you regularly trigger what's a poor sounding sample, they didn't do anything to smooth out the response.
> 
> It doesn't have any of the piano-specific features you'd expect to see in a $200 library either.
> 
> What does it do well? The pianos are THE exact piano sounds you hear on everything from The Beatles, and Zombies to Elliott Smith, which you just can't get from other libraries. And they offer a few microphone positions. But overall, I would not repurchase it. Wish someone who could do pianos well could work with Abbey Road to make a much better version of these instruments.



I never got around to buying these, so this is good to know, thanks. Since buying keyscape and having some great sounding uprights in there, I haven’t thought about it. But I know what you mean by “the” Abbey road sound. I wondering if tinkering with the key mapping in kontakt might help. It would take some time but starting at middle C and working your way down then up is usually a good way to go. Even root note tuning is possible. If there is ever a deep discount on it (like 50% or more) I might take a shot at it, but good samples are key. And if I found less than 6 dynamics on some keys it would seriously depress me.


----------



## Funkybot

kurtvanzo said:


> I never got around to buying these, so this is good to know, thanks. Since buying keyscape and having some great sounding uprights in there, I haven’t thought about it. But I know what you mean by “the” Abbey road sound. I wondering if tinkering with the key mapping in kontakt might help. It would take some time but starting at middle C and working your way down then up is usually a good way to go. Even root note tuning is possible. If there is ever a deep discount on it (like 50% or more) I might take a shot at it, but good samples are key. And if I found less than 6 dynamics on some keys it would seriously depress me.



I started editing the sample offset times to just have each sample begin at the transient but only got through 1 piano. It's a huge job due to the number of samples and then you have to add the exact same offset to each of the microphones. Apparently, Kontakt won't let you link the sample offset across different groups even if those groups are linked, which would have made the job go 3 times faster. 

If someone wanted to create a custom NKI with improved tuning and mapping, I'd love them forever. Lord knows I gave up on the task. And just to address your last sentence: there are exactly 6 velocity layers per note, but that doesn't mean they're all good ones.


----------



## jesc126

star.keys said:


> Spitfire Solo Strings
> 
> Reminds me of the moment when I decided to put my money into the drain


 
Really? I've been pleased with the new Solo Strings so far. One major complaint though - way too much vibrato on the legato and sustain patches, and it's not a smooth transition from non-vib to vib. It's all or nothing, and the vib is about 1.5x louder than non-vib, so it's not ideal. I use the non-vib sound and if I need a moment of vibrato then it's a lot of tweaking and drawing midi automation until it sounds okay. 

The short articulations are great. The long specialty artics are great (harmonics, flautando, etc). The mic position choices give a lot of flexibility in tone, but even the close mics are pretty roomy. 

All in all, I see using Solo Strings a lot. Works beautifully for any cue that needs that quartet sound with pizz, harmonics, or soft sustaining chords. Which these days is very common.


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Guy Rowland said:


> (what IS this N library?!!)


It’s not so much “what is N?” as “how is N?”.
N is more a state of mind; a journey rather than a destination.


----------



## pderbidge

kurtvanzo said:


> Really sorry I picked up the 8Dio instant acoustic, even at $18 (or was it $28?). My first purchase that doesn’t get past the first few minutes of playing.
> 
> Sounded great in the walkthrough and demos but after playing it just a few minutes I find:
> 
> Strum not looping is a huge failure, perhaps it has to do with their engine/programming since the string arppegio is the same way, but really it screws both these libraries from being used much (maybe that’s the point and Troell’s owns he only versions that loop? Brilliant!)


I never understood the non looping thing with this library and arpeggio legato. Seems like If they just took the time to offer a folder with phrases that looped it wouldn't take much time at all and yet improve customer feedback about 8dio immensely, at least regarding these two libraries.


----------



## ChristianM

SoNowWhat? said:


> It’s not so much “what is N?” as “how is N”?
> N is more a state of mind; a journey rather than a destination.



zeN ?


----------



## Geoff Grace

Guy Rowland said:


> (what IS this N library?!!)


The thread that started it all:

N

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Desire Inspires

I want to say, but I don't want to get sued for libel.


----------



## star.keys

jesc126 said:


> Really? I've been pleased with the new Solo Strings so far. One major complaint though - way too much vibrato on the legato and sustain patches, and it's not a smooth transition from non-vib to vib. It's all or nothing, and the vib is about 1.5x louder than non-vib, so it's not ideal. I use the non-vib sound and if I need a moment of vibrato then it's a lot of tweaking and drawing midi automation until it sounds okay.
> 
> The short articulations are great. The long specialty artics are great (harmonics, flautando, etc). The mic position choices give a lot of flexibility in tone, but even the close mics are pretty roomy.
> 
> All in all, I see using Solo Strings a lot. Works beautifully for any cue that needs that quartet sound with pizz, harmonics, or soft sustaining chords. Which these days is very common.



Yes, really crap library to my ears. Have you tried Joshua Bell, CH Solo and Orchestral Tools solo libraries? They are leaps ahead. SPF is only good for texture and I am learning the art of playing chords on solo instruments with endless boring self evolving tone to death, in the name of creativity (or in other words, incompetence)


----------



## Parsifal666

star.keys said:


> Yes, really crap library to my ears. Have you tried Joshua Bell, CH Solo and Orchestral Tools solo libraries? They are leaps ahead. SPF is only good for texture and I am learning the art of playing chords on solo instruments with endless boring self evolving tone to death, in the name of creativity (or in other words, incompetence)



Thus, Spitfire Evos!

I don't want to be too hard on those libraries, because they can help a composer come up with transitions (the non-orchestral parts of SF Albions can be great for that too, EDNA, etc), plus both Evo 2 and 3 been pretty darn handy when I'm brainstorming in general, mostly as rough bases for a rhythm.

More often than not I don't even_ use _strings as rhythmic devices in my music; and even when the composition _does_ call for that I do my final mockups with the EWH.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Guy Rowland said:


> (what IS this N library?!!)



It started out as a typo, then metamorphasised into a gag, and now it seems to have rather magically transmogrified itself into a metaphor.....

(The first rule of N library is you don't talk about N library.)


----------



## Guy Rowland

Thanks, I fear you've all said too much about N now. Might hurt sales when N 2.0 comes out.


----------



## BezO

Wow! Surprised at the Spitfire Solo String reviews. I almost went with them after missing the sale on Chris Hein Solo Strings.

I'm fairly new to VIs, so some of my recent purchases are older products. My biggest disappointments are:

Thrill: Cool sounds but I haven't used it once. More atonal and less playable than I thought.
MusicLab RealGuitar/Strat/LPC/Rick: Group sale from Orange Tree put these in the garage.


----------



## jbuhler

BezO said:


> Wow! Surprised at the Spitfire Solo String reviews. I almost went with them after missing the sale on Chris Hein Solo Strings.
> 
> I'm fairly new to VIs, so some of my recent purchases are older products. My biggest disappointments are:
> 
> Thrill: Cool sounds but I haven't used it once. More atonal and less playable than I thought.
> MusicLab RealGuitar/Strat/LPC/Rick: Group sale from Orange Tree put these in the garage.


I like the Spitfire Solo Strings, except the vibrato remains very hard to get right, and harder than is the case for the string ensemble libraries. (The vibrato is a much bigger problem for this library than the legato, imho.) They sit well in a section for added detail and sound nice for momentary spot solos in orchestral works or single strings in small chamber groups not dominated by strings (an ensemble like the one in British Drama Toolkit). I don't think they would work especially well for string trios, quartets, or quintets or the various derivatives of those (e.g., piano quintet) or for extended solo work like a concerto or sonata, though I haven't actually tried the library for these things yet, so I'm not speaking from experience. I think people would have been happier with this library, even at the same price point, if they had been called something like "first chairs," just as I think people would have been happier with the HZ Strings if they'd called it something like "HZ 'Dunkirk' Strings."


----------



## Geoff Grace

jbuhler said:


> I think people would have been happier with this library, even at the same price point, if they had been called something like "first chairs," just as I think people would have been happier with the HZ Strings if they'd called it something like "HZ 'Dunkirk' Strings."


I suspect you're right, although it flies in the face of Shakespeare's _Romeo and Juliet_. ("A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.")

Then again, if one were to try to sell roses as hammer substitutes, a lot of customers might be disappointed—despite the lovely smell.

(Not suggesting Spitfire was _that_ far off the mark.)

Best,

Geoff


----------



## Rey

SoNowWhat? said:


> It’s not so much “what is N?” as “how is N?”.
> N is more a state of mind; a journey rather than a destination.



Well put. As N dev rep, we would like to extent our thanks to you for your continuous support and believe in N-the first and last library you ll ever need. As thanks, you ll re eive upgrade to N 2.0 for FREE.kindly Please visit the N forum to see what's new. . Have a 'N' ice day!


----------



## Rey

Mike Fox said:


> I agree. There was so much hype around N, but when I actually played it, I was immediately forced to file a credit card chargeback.



We sorry to hear about this but N already have a full demo of N before purchase, which is really really.rare in the world of sample libraries.You only have yourself to blame if you don't like it for whatever reason


----------



## Rey

Mike Fox said:


> My biggest problem with the ONE strings are the short articulations in the higher register. They sound really fake to me. Everything else ounds pretty good though.
> 
> Btw, good to see you around Guy!
> 
> (N is an ongoing joke for a library that doesn't exist. There was a thread in the Commercial Accouncements area that just said "N". It snowballed from there.)



But the real joke is when you said 'n' doesn't exist


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Rey said:


> Well put. As N dev rep, we would like to extent our thanks to you for your continuous support and believe in N-the first and last library you ll ever need. As thanks, you ll re eive upgrade to N 2.0 for FREE.kindly Please visit the N forum to see what's new. . Have a 'N' ice day!


----------



## iMovieShout

Biggest disappointment has to be Spitfire Audio's Hans Zimmer Strings. Whilst the samples are pretty good and definately worth the investment, there are 2 BIG technical issues:
1) Unlike most of SA's other professional libraries, there is no facility to route the many different Mic positions to different Mic outputs. So if you want each seprate Mic routed to a separate buss, then the only option is to stack them up, and pray there is enough memory and CPU power to handle it;

2) Every time we launch either Cubase 9.5 or Nuendo8 with HZ Strings in a project, we have to use SA's App to 'locate' the library, or, more often than not 'Repair' the library. It doesn't happen every time, but probably near 1 in every 5 times, and contacting SA for support to reset the 'Repair' and 'Locate' counters on their system is becoming a time waster. Its an obvious bug either with HZ Strings or possibly Windows10, but of the hundreds of libraries we have in our studio, this is (for us) the only library with this issue - so we think Spitfire Audio need to sort this one.

Thanks,
Jon


----------



## Bansi

Geocranium said:


> Can't say you didn't know what you were getting yourself into.


 I will not buy this ..the sound is too wet plus I need more dynamic layers


----------



## The Darris

For me, it was Aria Sounds release of the London Symphony Strings - Violins. It was so bad that they don't even sell them anymore. I got zero response from support after purchase and still have zero clue what the hell happened to that series. 

Issues I had were a few things. Odd GUI functionality that didn't make sense. Required side ways mouse movements to move faders up and down. The sound of the library was not great. They included a playable Glissando legato which was a total gimmick that I feel for so that's on me but still, it was so badly programmed that I pretty much deleted the library after a day or two and haven't looked back. It's ashamed because there were some pretty cool articulations that hadn't been done before but the quality of the recordings and sample editing was so atrocious that is ruined any hope of it being a usable library for me. I think I spent 49 euros on it but still, it ruined any chances of me ever buying another one of their products. I've not had that experience with a library since.


----------



## CT

Bansi said:


> I will not buy this ..the sound is too wet plus I need more dynamic layers



And the legato sounds like shit!


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

miket said:


> And the legato sounds like shit!



Sounds like you need,

*POWER LEGATO !!!*


----------



## jbuhler

Zoot_Rollo said:


> Sounds like you need,
> 
> *POWER LEGATO !!!*


One can never have too much POWER LEGATO!


----------



## Bansi

miket said:


> And the legato sounds like shit!


LOL!!!


----------



## Bansi

miket said:


> And the legato sounds like shit!


But the sound is very airy https://www.sound-ideas.com/Product/415/The-Original-Fart-Sound-Effects-Library


----------



## Parsifal666

_*Power Legato über alles! *_


----------



## axb312

poetd said:


> 8dioboe in the flash sale. Not a nice thing at all imo.
> 
> However, considering $8 was all it cost me to learn the lesson, I guess I actually have to remove it from the "disappointing" category - reading some of the stories in here, people spent WAY WAY more on libraries they don't like, I got off really lightly.



The oboe can actually be made to sound very good and is worth way more than 8 USD. Try a little harder.


----------



## BradHoyt

StillLife said:


> Cinestrings Solo. I actually think it sounds quite good, and the ensemble is good too, but I had trouble with its playability from the beginning and therefore did not use it. After a while I got the amazing Joshua Bell Violin, so now I regret buying Cinestrings Solo even more, because I think I will never use it, given the sound quality AND very good playability of ''the Bell'.


After buying the Joshua Bell Violin, it's easy to regret purchasing previous libraries that feature solo violin.


----------



## BradHoyt

Regretful purchases:
8Dio Adagio Strings when they were first released, and much more expensive - More of a hindsight is 20/20 thing...


----------



## Erick - BVA

Bansi said:


> But the sound is very airy https://www.sound-ideas.com/Product/415/The-Original-Fart-Sound-Effects-Library


oh goodness, this thread has jumped the shark now...but it's my kind of humor. I love fart jokes.


----------



## Quasar

Sibelius19 said:


> oh goodness, this thread has jumped the shark now...but it's my kind of humor. I love fart jokes.


The key to using this is a low pass filter for maintaining the fat bottom end.


----------



## Reid Rosefelt

8Dio Oboe. Deleted
8Dio Emotive Grand Piano. Deleted
$8. Deleted.

Sublime Wrenchenspiel worth much more than $16. Cost $8.

Me. Happy. Thank you 8Dio!


----------



## KallumS

Orchestral String Runs. Not because they're bad, just I thought it would function like an ostinato builder. Guess I didn't do enough research.

For what it does though, it does very well!


----------



## Wally Garten

poetd said:


> I have others that do the job far better (stock Kontakt for a start).





TigerTheFrog said:


> 8Dio Oboe. Deleted



Yeah -- I didn't love it, either. I'm sure, as somebody above says, that it _can_ be made to sound good, but honestly, that's not where I want to spend my time and life energy. (Especially when I have, e.g., the Hephaestus Sounds oboe, which is also cheap and played well for me right out of the box.) Oh well. I learned how to install the SIPS scripts from Alex and Rob, so that was probably worth $8 right there!



TigerTheFrog said:


> Sublime Wrenchenspiel worth much more than $16. Cost $8.



Agreed -- that thing is pretty cool!


----------



## Quasar

TigerTheFrog said:


> 8Dio Oboe. Deleted
> 8Dio Emotive Grand Piano. Deleted
> $8. Deleted.
> 
> Sublime Wrenchenspiel worth much more than $16. Cost $8.
> 
> Me. Happy. Thank you 8Dio!


I just bought the Wrenchenspiel based on your post and listening to a few seconds of the sounds. Thanks!

I passed on the oboe because the only reason I would have bought it was the $8 price, which isn't a good enough reason to buy anything, ever.


----------



## dzilizzi

KallumS said:


> Orchestral String Runs. Not because they're bad, just I thought it would function like an ostinato builder. Guess I didn't do enough research.
> 
> For what it does though, it does very well!


I was thinking about getting them. I don't need an ostinado builder - I have Sonokinetic's. But the runs builder looked useful.


----------



## paul

The most disappointing? .... _"would have been" Spitfire_ - but then..... I didn't purchase. 
I'm currently very happy (having spent loads of money _"sorry sounds like H.Enfield's character"_ with other libraries over the years).
I am not usually one for knocking anybody in this very challenging industry - but when you experience a big "put down" from a "so called library" _after working professionally for many years,_ it sticks in the craw a wee bit!
I'm very glad I didn't invest. _(However, you can spit where you like.....)
_


----------



## whiskers

Probably 8dios Solo voices. Didn't realize how phrase based they were. My fault for not researching well enough. Just hard for me to use in a lot of contexts. Feels like you have to write to than rather than with them.


----------



## ghostnote

I wouldn't say that I've been dissapointed with any library I've bought. Mainly because I know what I need in my template and also do lots of research. However there are certain libraries which I grew out of, if this term makes any sense. Heavyocity beeing one of those libraries. Bought a lot of them, almost never used them. Maybe it's the loops.... Wait, yeah it's the loops...

Oh and there's one other library from Old West - excuse me, I mean East west - which I use only because of ONE patch. No it's not Voices of Passion.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

poetd said:


> 8dioboe in the flash sale. Not a nice thing at all imo.


I'm happy with 8dioboe for $8. The legato has issues, mostly at the lower end.


----------



## Leslie Sanford

BradHoyt said:


> After buying the Joshua Bell Violin, it's easy to regret purchasing previous libraries that feature solo violin.



Re: Cinestrings Solo. I actually like the bowed legato of violin 1 more than that of the Bell violin. I find it more playable. Having said that, as a general rule I don't get on with wet libraries very well. There's always something in the choice of how an articulation is handled in a wet environment that doesn't jive with me, being raised on dry sample libraries.


----------



## mouse

Syncopator said:


> I have Epic Drums, and because of your post, I just went and reread the EULA.
> 
> I believe you've misread it.



They changed the EULA a few years ago I think


----------



## Michel Simons

whiskers said:


> Probably 8dios Solo voices. Didn't realize how phrase based they were. My fault for not researching well enough. Just hard for me to use in a lot of contexts. Feels like you have to write to than rather than with them.



I can imagine this if phrase based is not your thing (I have to admit that I have moved somewhat away from phrase based myself in recent years), but I actually managed to put most of them to some good uses over the years without feeling that I had to write to them. With the help of some melodyning I managed to fit them in quite a couple of tunes.


----------



## Clawrence

Oh god......8Dio Anthology.....Full price....First big library I ever bought, thought it was my answer for string libraries!!!!! HAHAHA! Literally never use it.....


----------



## JeffvR

Berlin Brass. I mean, it's not bad but I hoped it was the brass library to end all brass libraries. It isn't. Programming is inconsistent and I seriously don't get why you would sample p, mf and f for horn 1 and pp, mp and f for horn 2 (or something like that). A lot can get better with some decent programming but OT is on to their next products. I have to say I really like their other libraries I have: Ark 1, Time and Berlin Woodwinds.


----------



## NYC Composer

HOW Silver, pre their fix ups and whatever. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing, deleted it. I have a LOT of EW products that I love. That one caught me off guard.


----------



## BradHoyt

Clawrence said:


> Oh god......8Dio Anthology.....Full price....First big library I ever bought, thought it was my answer for string libraries!!!!! HAHAHA! Literally never use it.....


Interesting how 8Dio keeps reappearing in this thread....


----------



## kitekrazy

Bansi said:


> But the sound is very airy https://www.sound-ideas.com/Product/415/The-Original-Fart-Sound-Effects-Library



This would make a great collaboration project.


----------



## CT

Bansi said:


> But the sound is very airy https://www.sound-ideas.com/Product/415/The-Original-Fart-Sound-Effects-Library



Surprising to see Aflatus mentioned here. I thought people were wild about that one!


----------



## kitekrazy

Every VSL library I have ONLY if the eLicenser dies. It shouldn't since it stays in a hub and never moves. I only have Special Additions vol1,2 of each section. There's not a whole lot of money involved but enough.


----------



## EgM

poetd said:


> 8dioboe in the flash sale. Not a nice thing at all imo.
> 
> However, considering $8 was all it cost me to learn the lesson, I guess I actually have to remove it from the "disappointing" category - reading some of the stories in here, people spent WAY WAY more on libraries they don't like, I got off really lightly.



Sorry to say, and this is my personal opinion of course - But this oboe is perfectly fine and great.

If you're trying to play this oboe without riding cc1 and/or cc11, then it will not sound good and no serious orchestra instrument vi will anyway. I play the oboe and I use VSL French Oboe and VSL Viennese Oboe along this one and there is nothing wrong with it.

*Edit *
I consider this instrument one of those imperfect instruments where there is life in them, hence harder to play, harder to fit into a score, in contrast to VSL's sterile instruments that would fit into any midi file import. If you apply some work, it can be quite lovely.


----------



## bfreepro

8dio hybrid tools 1.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

EgM said:


> But this oboe is perfectly fine and great.


Agreed! I like this little guy and think people are writing it off too quickly. It's got issues to be sure, and people should be aware before buying. But I still enjoy using it.


----------



## ag75

bfreepro said:


> 8dio hybrid tools 1.


Did you just buy it?


----------



## bfreepro

ag75 said:


> Did you just buy it?


No I’ve had it and but never used it because it sounds so amateur and has limited content compared to other sound design/hybrid type libraries. I know it’s on sale now but it really is the most disappointed I’ve been in a library, along with other 8dio stuff. Such a hit or miss company


----------



## EgM

bfreepro said:


> Such a hit or miss company



tbh, all vi companies today are hit and miss... even the old great ones like VSL and EastWest.


----------



## bfreepro

EgM said:


> tbh, all vi companies today are hit and miss... even the old great ones like VSL and EastWest.


Yeah, I still believe this company is the worst offender. Either big hits like The Epic Drums series, or Century Strings and Brass, some of the best and most detailed samples I've heard, or on the other hand you get INSANELY overpriced crap like the hybrid tools and Silka choir (literally just extra articulations by the same choir recorded in Insolidus, and charging 600 for what is a half baked "expansion"...) . Never been so baffled and frustrated with a company as I am with some of their products.


----------



## EgM

kitekrazy said:


> Every VSL library I have ONLY if the eLicenser dies. It shouldn't since it stays in a hub and never moves. I only have Special Additions vol1,2 of each section. There's not a whole lot of money involved but enough.



Just buy an elicenser every 2 years and keep the invoice. Beats VSL's ridiculous insurance and elicensers are pretty cheap.


----------



## ScoreFace

For me it was Friedlander Violin from Embertone - just didn't do it for me: very artificial and liveless sound, unnatural tremolo. Whenever I want to use solo violin and try Friedlander, it is a big disappointment soundwise. I have to admit it seems to be hard to sample a solo violin and bring it to live.


----------



## BradHoyt

ScoreFace said:


> For me it was Friedlander Violin from Embertone - just didn't do it for me: very artificial and liveless sound, unnatural tremolo. Whenever I want to use solo violin and try Friedlander, it is a big disappointment soundwise. I have to admit it seems to be hard to sample a solo violin and bring it to live.


Feel the same for sure... I should let you know though that the Embertone Joshua Bell Violin is unbelievable though.. completely different.


----------



## N.Caffrey

For me it was M. The day after I bought it, N was announced. Deleted M from the hard drive.


----------



## Jaap

N.Caffrey said:


> For me it was M. The day after I bought it, N was announced. Deleted M from the hard drive.



Yeah N is hard to beat


----------



## CT

Don't waste your money on N. I've been beta testing sOmething new, and yOu'll all want tO have the cash ready when it's released. I can't say anything mOre, though.


----------



## dzilizzi

miket said:


> Don't waste your money on N. I've been beta testing sOmething new, and yOu'll all want tO have the cash ready when it's released. I can't say anything mOre, though.


But N has a Newer and greater versioN coming out and it is FREE to prior version owners.


----------



## reddognoyz

Aeris was a big bust for me. It sounds good but not very useful for my workflow.


----------



## ScoreFace

BradHoyt said:


> Feel the same for sure... I should let you know though that the Embertone Joshua Bell Violin is unbelievable though.. completely different.



That sounds interesting - is it kind of classical-concerto sounding or more timeless-cinematic?


----------



## maestro2be

VSL Synchron Strings.
Original 8DIO Adagio.


----------



## quantum7

bfreepro said:


> No I’ve had it and but never used it because it sounds so amateur and has limited content compared to other sound design/hybrid type libraries. I know it’s on sale now but it really is the most disappointed I’ve been in a library, along with other 8dio stuff. Such a hit or miss company



EVERY sample company has “hit or miss” products to someone.


----------



## Atarion Music

Hands down, https://www.thelooploft.com/products/flutes-of-fire


----------



## Parsifal666

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I've heard that once you get N, it cures you of the need to buy any more libraries.



Well, until the Gustav Mahler Orchestral Toolkit comes out.


----------



## jbuhler

Parsifal666 said:


> Well, until the Gustav Mahler Orchestral Toolkit comes out.


I would almost certainly buy that. Still, I'd want to hear the legatos on the hammer strokes.


----------



## Parsifal666

jbuhler said:


> I would almost certainly buy that. Still, I'd want to hear the legatos on the hammer strokes.



LOL! +1


----------



## tokatila

jbuhler said:


> I would almost certainly buy that. Still, I'd want to hear the POWER legatos on the hammer strokes.



Fixed that for ya.


----------



## Celestial Aeon

Oh boy.

I don't want to answer the question as I have so many misses and so many libraries I'll probably never use but want to offer a view that might help some in their frustration:

As long as you have decent income from your music it doesn't really matter what your total sound library expenses are. Any library has potential magic and wonder that comes with it and only way to make it happen is to own it and try it on your own. It's a bit like gambling. If you don't play at all, you don't lose, but you don't win either. It doesn't really make sense to get too deep into the frustration and "why did I buy this crap" kind of thinking because that is just something that will happen every now and then.

I think that libraries are potential that you eventually turn into actual value and in retrospect it didn't really matter too much which libraries played a big part and which didn't. The only meaningful thing is that value was generated (music) and tools were used (libraries).

Also for me one of the best ways to have fun when producing is the experience that I have so many tools at hand that I almost never get into situation where I'm thinking "I'd like to do this kind of stuff but I don't have the means". It's way much better to be in situation where you can practically try and do whatever you fancy, even if it means that you are sitting on libraries collecting dust. It's the potential that matters and hence any dollars you invest in libraries is always inherently meaningful even it doesn't really turn into actual use ever.

I might be a bit of an oddball with my attitude but then again I have always enjoyed reading Zen literature :D


----------



## whiskers

Celestial Aeon said:


> As long as you have decent income from your music it doesn't really matter what your total sound library expenses are


what if said income is $0


----------



## Soundlex

Parsifal666 said:


> Well, until the Gustav Mahler Orchestral Toolkit comes out.


That would be the dream library...


----------



## ratherbirds

Art Vista Virtual Grand 3. It produces a metallic sound in the high and medium high ranges of the keyboard. Yet I was told he was great ! ?


----------



## bfreepro

quantum7 said:


> EVERY sample company has “hit or miss” products to someone.


I am very well aware. As I stated before though, this company is the worst offender (and of course this is all my personal opinion, though I know I’m not alone... I used to see everyone kind of give this company a bad rap and I never understood why, until I delved deeper into the products that they offer and ran into the same problems others commented about. Trust me, I give every company a fair chance). It’s the inconsistency that gets me. Century strings and brass are impeccably sampled and some of my favorite sounds I currently use (in the top 3), and then they also have cash-grab or “rehashed” products that make me truly wonder what they were thinking. For all the other companies I know of, the standards of quality are always met, even if the product may not be right up my alley, I still respect the company for not half assing anything. That’s why I state this company is the ultimate “hit or miss” company. Not just because I don’t see a need to use the sounds, but because they don’t consistently meet the standard of quality anyone should expect from a very large and well known sampling company.


----------



## ToxicRecordings

quantum7 said:


> EVERY sample company has “hit or miss” products to someone.


Heavyocity would like to have word with you.


----------



## CGR

ratherbirds said:


> Art Vista Virtual Grand 3. It produces a metallic sound in the high and medium high ranges of the keyboard. Yet I was told he was great ! ?


This is typical of a 60's era Steinway which has 'seen some miles'. I've played a number of old Steinways manufactured in this era (including Model B's like the ArtVista) and they can really 'bite'!

You can tame those metallic qualities by firstly selecting a different keyboard velocity profile from the built in drop down menu (makes a big difference) and also trying the various presets and rolling off the top end (treble attenuation). Personally, I love this sampled piano, and I prefer an organic sounding, bright, resonant & lively tone I can tame, rather than trying to EQ brightness into a dull/lifeless artificially smooth piano tone.


----------



## Matt Riley

8dio Agitato Legato strings. I bought them to fill a specific need of playing convincing fast legato lines. I downloaded it and immediately tried to use it in a project that I was working on it. Once I started working with it, I was disappointed to find that no amount of finagling could get my melodic lines to sound good. I opened a support ticket and sent the midi file but they were unable to help get a better result and said that real strings don’t really play that fast. I’m an experience arranger and happen to know that they can. They had marketed their library as a library that can play very fast legato got a lines. I don’t know if they are still marketing it that way but I had a terrible results with it. I later bought Spitfire chamber strings and haven’t looked back. I wish I could’ve got my money back for the agitato legato strings though. If they had given me a refund, they would have built trust and I would be open to purchasing more of their libraries.


----------



## ratherbirds

CGR said:


> ...
> You can tame those metallic qualities by firstly selecting a different keyboard velocity profile from the built in drop down menu (makes a big difference) and also trying the various presets and rolling off the top end (treble attenuation). Personally, I love this sampled piano, and I prefer an organic sounding, bright, resonant & lively tone I can tame, rather than trying to EQ brightness into a dull/lifeless artificially smooth piano tone.


This is not the side busted that annoys me, on the contrary, no, it is the strident side as if the sampling frequency (problem with my sound card? I do not believe it) was insufficient or that certain frequencies came into resonance, like a Larsen effect. This happens on the decay of the sound. If we filter a little treble, we risk losing the brilliant attack of a sound more rock. Too bad.


----------



## alanb

ratherbirds said:


> If we filter a little treble, we risk losing the brilliant attack of a sound more rock. Too bad.



Perhaps a dynamic EQ would help . . . ? ? ?


----------



## jaketanner

bigcat1969 said:


> Embarrassed to admit I bought it, but Sampletank 3 and the lower end Miro 2. I had picked up a ton of ST2 / Miro 1 stuff dirt cheap years ago and had fun with it. Thought ST3 / M2 would be on par with say mid tier modern stuff. Boy was I wrong. Terrible sound, terrible interface.



I have ST3, and it has been crashing PT for over 2 years now, and there is no fix. It's completely useless.


----------



## oliverd

Suprised to see some of the libraries mentioned in this thread. Goes to show that you'll never make everyone happy if you're a developer as some people just never read the manual ha


----------



## Erick - BVA

quantum7 said:


> EVERY sample company has “hit or miss” products to someone.


But some have more hit or miss than others.


----------



## Parsifal666

Sibelius19 said:


> But some have more hit or miss than others.



Exactly.



oliverd said:


> Suprised to see some of the libraries mentioned in this thread. Goes to show that you'll never make everyone happy if you're a developer as some people just never read the manual ha



And some libraries just plain suck.


----------



## Erick - BVA

Parsifal666 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> And some libraries just plain suck.


Yeah, most libraries don't require a manual to know whether or not it's been over-hyped, or doesn't deliver. Most libraries are instantly playable and you know how it behaves and sounds. In rare cases is it due to a lack of manual reading. 
And I think most people aren't going to trash a library if they know they haven't learned how to use it properly.


----------



## Parsifal666

I think lack of manual reading is the culprit most of the time (and then mostly newbies whom expected a library to make music _for_ them).


----------



## JohnG

Sibelius19 said:


> Most libraries are instantly playable



Some, for sure. Most of my favourite libraries are _not_ instantly playable.


----------



## Erick - BVA

JohnG said:


> Some, for sure. Most of my favourite libraries are _not_ instantly playable.


So most of the libraries you have don't make sound when you load them up and press keys?


----------



## Zoot_Rollo

Parsifal666 said:


> I think lack of manual reading is the culprit most of the time (and then mostly newbies whom expected a library to make music _for_ them).



my top 2 votes for most revealing manuals:

*Orchestral Tools Capsule User Guide*

http://www.orchestraltools.com/downloads/CAPSULE_User_Guide.pdf


*East West Hollywood Orchestra Diamond and Play Manuals*

http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/docs/EW-QL_Hollywood-Strings-Diamond_Manual.pdf

http://download.soundsonline.com/updates/play/Play_System_Manual.pdf


i love manuals.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Zoot_Rollo said:


> *East West Hollywood Orchestra Diamond and Play Manuals*
> 
> http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/docs/EW-QL_Hollywood-Strings-Diamond_Manual.pdf


Every manual should start with several pages of bio and pictures of the producers looking like cool kids.

*Producer: Doug Rogers*






Where's my photo of Sascha Knorr posing like Joe Cool in the Orchestral Tools manuals?


----------



## SoNowWhat?

Parsifal666 said:


> ...expected a library to make music _for_ them...


Oh gawd. I knew I’d been doing something wrong!!


----------



## EgM

JohnG said:


> Some, for sure. Most of my favourite libraries are _not_ instantly playable.



This!

Maybe I'm some kind of masochist, but I don't really care for instant playability as a criteria for why I like a library or not. I come from the 90s where you had to manipulate everything for stuff to sound good.

What I want from a library is a human feel/sound.


----------



## Batrawi

CSB...


----------



## Erick - BVA

EgM said:


> This!
> 
> Maybe I'm some kind of masochist, but I don't really care for instant playability as a criteria for why I like a library or not. I come from the 90s where you had to manipulate everything for stuff to sound good.
> 
> What I want from a library is a human feel/sound.



I think people have misunderstood what I've said. The default patches and instruments should definitely be "playable." But that doesn't mean they fit perfectly with what we want. So tweaking is definitely a must. But at a certain point it can be a draw back if it's required for it to sound "good." Shouldn't the standard patches showcase the sound and playability of the instrument? Yes, tweaks here and there should be used to adapt to your needs, but I don't think you should have to significantly tweak it to make it usable.
I mean, the sound of a fart can sound good if you tweak and manipulate it enough. 
You should be able to tell how well the instrument behaves based on the included/default patches.


----------



## dzilizzi

Parsifal666 said:


> I think lack of manual reading is the culprit most of the time (and then mostly newbies whom expected a library to make music _for_ them).


Aren't all libraries plug and play? Sigh, I keep hoping 

I used to think most of my string libraries sounded synthy. Then I saw some videos on orchestration, especially one by Rick Beato. I realized they sound synthy because I play them like a synth not like strings need to be played to sound like strings. I don't know if manuals cover this. They usually assume you know what you are doing.


----------



## kitekrazy

Parsifal666 said:


> I think lack of manual reading is the culprit most of the time (*and then mostly newbies whom expected a library to make music for them*).



Sometimes the developers market them that way. I think the smaller libraries like GPO are great for newbies.


----------



## dflood

quantum7 said:


> EVERY sample company has “hit or miss” products to someone.


‘Hit or Miss’ sounds like the less popular sequel to Native Instruments Rise and Hit.


----------



## axb312

Batrawi said:


> CSB...


?


----------



## Lode_Runner

Sibelius19 said:


> I mean, the sound of a fart can sound good if you tweak and manipulate it enough.


That's how most braaams are made.

I'll get my coat


----------



## gjelul

Every developer has libraries that are not what you pay for, no developer is a 'saint' 

However, most libraries falling into the 'regret' or better, 'not used at all / often' category that I've purchased over the years - sorry to say - are from 8Dio. The samples just doesn't cut it for the bread / butter of film / tv composing, which is what I do most of the time.

What I've realized lately as I am building a new VEPro template is that I only need about 25% of what I have, and even that, will cover me for a few years. So the other 75% of what I've paid for is completely wasted $. How many staccato Flutes does one need


----------



## Crowe

gjelul said:


> What I've realized lately as I am building a new VEPro template is that I only need about 25% of what I have, and even that, will cover me for a few years. So the other 75% of what I've paid for is completely wasted $. How many staccato Flutes does one need



The answer is "all of them".


----------



## Daniel James

.....


----------



## dgburns

Daniel James said:


> .....



Yeah, five dots was a crap library. No where near as good as four dots.


----------



## Daniel James

dgburns said:


> Yeah, five dots was a crap library. No where near as good as four dots.



Its been a long year.

-DJ


----------



## Erick - BVA

Daniel James said:


> .....


I count 5 dots. I did some digging, and in Morse code, that means zero. In other words, no regrets? 
I think I may be trying to hard.


----------



## Daniel James

Sibelius19 said:


> I count 5 dots. I did some digging, and in Morse code, that means zero. In other words, no regrets?
> I think I may be trying to hard.



-.-. .- -. - - .- .-.. -.- ... .--. .. - ..-. .. .-. . .- .-. . .-- .- - -.-. .... .. -. --.


----------



## Alex Niedt

Translation: "CANTTALKSPITFIREAREWATCHING"


----------



## Kony

Alex Niedt said:


> Translation: "CANTTALKSPITFIREAREWATCHING"


lol


----------



## Erick - BVA

haha, so apparently I don't know Morse code. 5 dots actually just means 5. Go figure. I read 5 dots as 5 dashes. I wouldn't survive if I were stranded on a desert island.


----------



## Erick - BVA

Alex Niedt said:


> Translation: "CANTTALKSPITFIREAREWATCHING"


You were supposed to respond in Morse code, too  
-. --- .-- / - .... . -.-- / -.- -. --- .--


----------



## CT

dgburns said:


> Yeah, five dots was a crap library. No where near as good as four dots.



But is it better than N?


----------



## Kony

miket said:


> But is it better than N?


You mean -.


----------



## Kony

-.. .- -. .. . .-.. / .--- .- -- . ... / .-- .- ... / .... . .-. .


----------



## BenHicks

I tend to find something useful in every library I purchase, even if it's just one patch. If I'm able to use a library in some fashion for a project successfully, then I personally can't really label it as a disappointment. That being said, I _have_ had my expectations over-inflated before on certain libraries, usually as a result of flashy marketing/promises which ended up making them *feel* like disappointments ::ahem::

If I were to label one library purchase of mine as a _true_ disappointment, I'd have to go with Hollywood Woodwinds. I added it to my Complete Composers Collection 2 selection way back in the day and simply never found a use for it. Not once. I actually removed it from my hard drive altogether recently as a result (which I never do). 

I've been much more cautious over the last few years since then when it comes to purchasing libraries. As a result, I haven't really had any _true_ disappointments since then.


----------



## Ben H

Sampletank 2 XL... Horrible sounding garbage... I paid the full $399 or $499 or whatever it was back in the day too.

I tried getting along with it for 7 years. Then I eventually tossed it in the bin.


----------



## alanb

Daniel James said:


> -.-. .- -. - - .- .-.. -.- ... .--. .. - ..-. .. .-. . .- .-. . .-- .- - -.-. .... .. -. --.




..- -. -.. . .-. .... .. ... . -.-- .


----------



## CT

-.


----------



## gamma-ut

I. See. Four. Dots.


----------



## Bluemount Score

Albion One. 
No, don't get me wrong, it's a great library and I bought it in black friday sale, however, as I own Ark 1 and 2 now as well, I use it much less. Also I'm not that much into hybrid stuff yet, which Albion offers a lot. Lastly, I overall prefer libraries that arent section based. Ark and Albion do just that in their Strings, which is why when it comes to strings I prefer CSS and CSSS.


----------



## dgburns

Daniel James said:


> Its been a long year.
> 
> -DJ



It’s funny how associations go. There’s this burger chain up in Canada called Five Guys, and they make an ok burger but cram the brown bag full of fries, it’s their trademark. So when I saw your five dots (.....) guess what I thought of , lol

yes it’s been a long @#$king year, 

cheers mates


----------



## kgdrum

Daniel James said:


> -.-. .- -. - - .- .-.. -.- ... .--. .. - ..-. .. .-. . .- .-. . .-- .- - -.-. .... .. -. --.




Daniel,
I think the community would appreciate one of your comprehensive walkthroughs concerning this.
Thanks,
KG


----------



## Erick - BVA

dgburns said:


> It’s funny how associations go. There’s this burger chain up in Canada called Five Guys, and they make an ok burger but cram the brown bag full of fries, it’s their trademark. So when I saw your five dots (.....) guess what I thought of , lol
> 
> yes it’s been a long @#$king year,
> 
> cheers mates


Love Five Guys! We have 'm here in West Michigan, too.


----------



## kitekrazy

dgburns said:


> It’s funny how associations go. There’s this burger chain up in Canada called Five Guys, and they make an ok burger but cram the brown bag full of fries, it’s their trademark. So when I saw your five dots (.....) guess what I thought of , lol
> 
> yes it’s been a long @#$king year,
> 
> cheers mates



I always thought they were called Five Guys because it took 5 guys to pay for a meal. My brother paid $13 for a cheese burger and fries.


----------



## Jonas Hallstrom

I like where this thread is heading... most disappointing burger?


----------



## whiskers

Jonas Hallstrom said:


> I like where this thread is heading... most disappointing burger?


BK Whopper, no question.

Also five guys is way overhyped and overpriced. It doesn't help that I'm not big on fries either.


----------



## dzilizzi

whiskers said:


> BK Whopper, no question.


I was thinking the same thing. It used to be so much more whopper-y


----------



## Erick - BVA

kitekrazy said:


> I always thought they were called Five Guys because it took 5 guys to pay for a meal. My brother paid $13 for a cheese burger and fries.


hahaha, yeah. Steak and Shake is nearby and much cheaper, so we do usually go for that instead. There was a little snippet of my life where I made decent money and we could afford it. Those days are gone...for now.


whiskers said:


> BK Whopper, no question.
> 
> Also five guys is way overhyped and overpriced. It doesn't help that I'm not big on fries either.


ah, I love that flame-broiled flavor.


----------



## prodigalson

First of all, the five guys burger is fucking awesome.


----------



## jbuhler

prodigalson said:


> First of all, the five guys burger is fucking awesome.


It's the POWER LEGATO sauce.


----------



## Sopranos

Love Five Guys. No homo.


----------



## SyMTiK

prodigalson said:


> First of all, the five guys burger is fucking awesome.



Five Guys is awesome until you try a Shake Shack burger

Then suddenly Five Guys becomes underwhelming lol


----------



## Wally Garten

One burger to rule them all: Fatburger. 

It's not really useful for all styles, though: this is an epic, in your face burger; this burger starts at fff.


----------



## Forecheck

Whataburger!!


----------



## Casiquire

gamma-ut said:


> I. See. Four. Dots.



WIN


----------



## kitekrazy

I make my own burgers. I just can't justify buying them unless it's the value menu from BK or MD. I do like the Whopper and Big Mac but only get those when they are on sale like 2/$5.

The only exception for me is Hopdoddy. 

Maybe I should take my own advice from above and make my own Kontakt libraries and patches to all of my synths. Outside of orchestra libraries how many of us would be willing to taken time and effort to create our own stuff in Kontakt instead of using it as a sample player. I'm thinking of creating pads using some of the many vocal loops I have.


----------



## clisma

kitekrazy said:


> I make my own burgers. I just can't justify buying them unless it's the value menu from BK or MD. I do like the Whopper and Big Mac but only get those when they are on sale like 2/$5.
> 
> The only exception for me is Hopdoddy.
> 
> Maybe I should take my own advice from above and make my own Kontakt libraries and patches to all of my synths. Outside of orchestra libraries how many of us would be willing to taken time and effort to create our own stuff in Kontakt instead of using it as a sample player. I'm thinking of creating pads using some of the many vocal loops I have.


Do it. It’s a rewarding experience. Plus, you learn new stuff and that’s always a good thing.


----------



## spiderfingers

Back to the topic. My two big regrets are:

- 8dio Symphonic Shadows: Actually does sound good, but I am absolutely annoyed how similar each sample in a bank sound, so the overall amount of content is disappointingly small. I paid only $38, but even at this discount the library feels overpriced. To be fair, I got some really good stuff for little money from them as well. 

- Spitfire BT Phobos: Does have some real badass content, but overall this "synth" is quite an unflexible sample playback engine (too much stuff in most sounds). I am also disappointed, that playback speed and tuning are connected which is a problem, if you want to tune a rhythmic loop (and a lot of them have very obvious tonal elements, you can even hear the tonal clashes in the walkthrough videos). And the whole polyconvolution thing isn't a big deal. I still hope that I will find a use for that, especially because I didn't get it at such a steep discount as the upper fella. Again, I also got some great upgrades from SF on the other hand.

In terms of hit and miss I think both companies have quite a huge range of usable and useless products. 8dio seems to be a more striking candidate because they have more products and those huge discounts.


----------



## kitekrazy

spiderfingers said:


> Back to the topic. My two big regrets are:
> 
> - 8dio Symphonic Shadows: Actually does sound good, but I am absolutely annoyed how similar each sample in a bank sound, so the overall amount of content is disappointingly small. I paid only $38, but even at this discount the library feels overpriced. To be fair, I got some really good stuff for little money from them as well.
> 
> - Spitfire BT Phobos: Does have some real badass content, but overall this "synth" is quite an unflexible sample playback engine (too much stuff in most sounds). I am also disappointed, that playback speed and tuning are connected which is a problem, if you want to tune a rhythmic loop (and a lot of them have very obvious tonal elements, you can even hear the tonal clashes in the walkthrough videos). And the whole polyconvolution thing isn't a big deal. I still hope that I will find a use for that, especially because I didn't get it at such a steep discount as the upper fella. Again, I also got some great upgrades from SF on the other hand.
> 
> In terms of hit and miss I think both companies have quite a huge range of usable and useless products. *8dio seems to be a more striking candidate because they have more products and those huge discounts.*



If I were to start a new career I doubt it would be developing sample libraries. There are only so many ways to reinvent the wheel.


----------



## Brian2112

Forecheck said:


> Whataburger!!


I’m from Texas. Can’t throw a rock without hitting a fat, stupid, non compliant type 2 diabetic, or a Whataburger. 
Still eat them though. It’s all we got.


----------



## Wally Garten

Brian2112 said:


> I’m from Texas. Can’t throw a rock without hitting a fat, stupid, non compliant type 2 diabetic, or a Whataburger.
> Still eat them though. It’s all we got.



I'm saddened to hear that Texas is reduced to eating its diabetics.


----------



## kgdrum

Brian2112 said:


> I’m from Texas. Can’t throw a rock without hitting a fat, stupid, non compliant type 2 diabetic, or a Whataburger.
> Still eat them though. It’s all we got.




Which do you prefer for a nice meal,the non compliant diabetic or the Whataburger?


----------



## Hayden

My recent purchase of the very inexpensive 8dioboe ($8?) turned out to be less than great — the demos seem to far exceed the actual capacity of the VI. 

However, does anyone know of a way to adjust those jagged connections between the 8dioboe’s notes? I seem to remember some ‘fixes’ that were posted — which would be good since the tone of the 8dioboe is quite good. It just isn’t really playable, out of the box.


----------



## I like music

Hayden said:


> My recent purchase of the very inexpensive 8dioboe ($8?) turned out to be less than great — the demos seem to far exceed the actual capacity of the VI.
> 
> However, does anyone know of a way to adjust those jagged connections between the 8dioboe’s notes? I seem to remember some ‘fixes’ that were posted — which would be good since the tone of the 8dioboe is quite good. It just isn’t really playable, out of the box.



Man, it must be a bad instrument if it is going for 8 dollars and even then it is disappointing people. I was curious about it, but have heard a lot of the same as you've described. What are the main issues with it?


----------



## Wally Garten

Hayden said:


> However, does anyone know of a way to adjust those jagged connections between the 8dioboe’s notes? I seem to remember some ‘fixes’ that were posted — which would be good since the tone of the 8dioboe is quite good. It just isn’t really playable, out of the box.



The main block of advice was here:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/8dio-25-x-mas-flash-sales.77407/page-6#post-4317268

Later someone else added that one should choose the "Oboe" preset from the dropdown menu in one of the scripts.


----------



## Brian2112

Saw that coming yea.
Anything but Whataburger and Ill leave it at that.


----------



## pmcrockett

Hayden said:


> My recent purchase of the very inexpensive 8dioboe ($8?) turned out to be less than great — the demos seem to far exceed the actual capacity of the VI.
> 
> However, does anyone know of a way to adjust those jagged connections between the 8dioboe’s notes? I seem to remember some ‘fixes’ that were posted — which would be good since the tone of the 8dioboe is quite good. It just isn’t really playable, out of the box.


It helps immensely if you wait to trigger legato transitions until the vibrato in the sample has started. I posted in more detail about this here.


----------



## bozmillar

I like music said:


> Man, it must be a bad instrument if it is going for 8 dollars and even then it is disappointing people.



for me, it was because the walkthrough video sounded really good to me. When I opened it up to play it, it just felt so awkward to play. I think it's the kind of instrument that if you know how to work it, it sounds great, but if you don't, it's hard to get it to sound good. It's hard to describe really. It's like you have to learn new techniques just to be able to play it. Which is fine. I guess it's way easier than playing a real oboe, but most of us don't want to completely readjust our playing technique for each instrument.


----------



## KallumS

Who's going to be the first to say Lacrimosa?


----------



## brynolf

KallumS said:


> Who's going to be the first to say Lacrimosa?


I already did months ago IIRC. We should get a new wave rolling in any day now


----------



## MaxOctane

spiderfingers said:


> - Spitfire BT Phobos



I love @christianhenson's demo. Especially with headphones, the detail is amazing. The drop at 3:29 gives me chills.



But yeah, it's super hard to use. It's basically this roulette wheel of awesome beats and sounds, and you get what you get. You can dial up a preset and tweak it, or blindly replace sound sources or convolution kernels and see if something nice pops out. Very often something nice *does* pop out, and inspire a line. But it's nearly impossible (for me) to imagine a sound and then find it.

I don't regret buying it, though. If you find it at a happy price, you'll discover some cool hard sounds in there.


----------



## whiskers

brynolf said:


> I already did months ago IIRC. We should get a new wave rolling in any day now


Care to expound on why? ( Just, you know, so I can feel better about my not buying it on sale  )


----------



## Gerbil

I like music said:


> Man, it must be a bad instrument if it is going for 8 dollars and even then it is disappointing people. I was curious about it, but have heard a lot of the same as you've described. What are the main issues with it?



I quite like it. Set it back a bit and it's pretty close to the oboe solo in JW's The Temple of Doom Nocturnal Activities cue.


----------



## Creston

I bought Audio Imperia's Fractal a while back and found it very disappointing for the price. I've bought Sampletraxx stuff for $30 and found it much more useful.

Aside from that, maybe LASS? Maybe I'm just used to Spitfire.


----------



## spiderfingers

MaxOctane said:


> But yeah, it's super hard to use. It's basically this roulette wheel of awesome beats and sounds, and you get what you get. You can dial up a preset and tweak it, or blindly replace sound sources or convolution kernels and see if something nice pops out. Very often something nice *does* pop out, and inspire a line. But it's nearly impossible (for me) to imagine a sound and then find it.
> 
> I don't regret buying it, though. If you find it at a happy price, you'll discover some cool hard sounds in there.



So you use it rather as a starter instead of filling out things?


----------



## brynolf

whiskers said:


> Care to expound on why? ( Just, you know, so I can feel better about my not buying it on sale  )


Seems I didn't in this thread at least... 
Well, Lacrimosa is alright. The legatos are so-so and not all vowels are available for all articulations. I had a bitch of a time sculpting a track based mostly on "mmm". For epic, shouty staccatos and choir:y pads, it's a totally valid library.


----------



## kitekrazy

How many times have you regret buying something because it came with a free product? Someone on this site mentioned would it make sense if you wanted it without the free stuff?


----------



## Erick - BVA

kitekrazy said:


> How many times have you regret buying something because it came with a free product? Someone on this site mentioned would it make sense if you wanted it without the free stuff?


Every time IK Multimedia has done this with their stuff, I was stupid enough to bite on that offer. I did it with their Total Studio Max when I bought a guitar interface. Turns out their guitar interface kind of sucks --or at least my system doesn't like it-- and I never use Sampletank 2 or any of the other stuff that came with it. That doesn't mean it's all bad. I just haven't had much use for it. I then did it again with Sampletank 3 when they had a deal where if you bought a cheap midi keyboard you'd get a free full version of Sampletank 3. The hardware was trash --seemed to be built like a kid's toy (iRig Keys Mini). The software seems a little better than Sampletank 2, but still not on par with Kontakt or Omnisphere. I do like Amplitube, but that was a separate purchase from all of this other deal stuff.
At least I wasn't out too much money. The deals were kind of insane on some levels. But I just found that I already had better stuff. Not blaming them. Just my dumb impulses. I just should have kept my money.


----------



## kitekrazy

Sibelius19 said:


> Every time IK Multimedia has done this with their stuff, I was stupid enough to bite on that offer. I did it with their Total Studio Max when I bought a guitar interface. Turns out their guitar interface kind of sucks --or at least my system doesn't like it-- and I never use Sampletank 2 or any of the other stuff that came with it. That doesn't mean it's all bad. I just haven't had much use for it. I then did it again with Sampletank 3 when they had a deal where if you bought a cheap midi keyboard you'd get a free full version of Sampletank 3. The hardware was trash --seemed to be built like a kid's toy (iRig Keys Mini). The software seems a little better than Sampletank 2, but still not on par with Kontakt or Omnisphere. I do like Amplitube, but that was a separate purchase from all of this other deal stuff.
> At least I wasn't out too much money. The deals were kind of insane on some levels. But I just found that I already had better stuff. Not blaming them. Just my dumb impulses. I just should have kept my money.



I can relate. I got an iRig keys and it uses a micro usb port. The jack is messed up. One lesson learned is never buy a controler with micro usb. Micro usb is the "armpitamy" of bad engineering. I have a lot of IK software but I forget it's there. I've started using ST3 to audition midi files. Their upgrade pricing seems to irritate plenty of people.


----------



## dzilizzi

kitekrazy said:


> How many times have you regret buying something because it came with a free product? Someone on this site mentioned would it make sense if you wanted it without the free stuff?


I usually think of it as paying for the free product (if that was what I really wanted) and getting the other stuff free. Of course, sometimes I want the other products and the free one is just icing on the cake. (Or doesn't get installed)


----------



## MillsMixx

MaxOctane said:


> I love @christianhenson's demo. Especially with headphones, the detail is amazing. The drop at 3:29 gives me chills.
> 
> 
> 
> But yeah, it's super hard to use. It's basically this roulette wheel of awesome beats and sounds, and you get what you get. You can dial up a preset and tweak it, or blindly replace sound sources or convolution kernels and see if something nice pops out. Very often something nice *does* pop out, and inspire a line. But it's nearly impossible (for me) to imagine a sound and then find it.
> 
> I don't regret buying it, though. If you find it at a happy price, you'll discover some cool hard sounds in there.




Cool sounds if you work at it. I would love if they would update it, maybe put a little more work into making it user-friendly...but I sort of feel they're gonna move on to bigger and better things. 

It's always felt a little unpolished to me, sort of like a beta version or something, especially with that interface, patch browsing, etc. 

Maybe a brighter color would've even been better to slick it up. And more tutorials! Or a master's degree in Phoboology!


----------



## Syncopator

dzilizzi said:


> I was thinking about getting them. I don't need an ostinado builder - I have Sonokinetic's. But the runs builder looked useful.



OSR's runs builder is quite useful. There's also CineStrings Runs. OT for this thread, perhaps, but they both have strengths and weaknesses. OSR is more versatile, however, due to its playable runs patch. Neither is on my list of disappointing purchases.


----------



## ScarletJerry

kitekrazy said:


> I can relate. I got an iRig keys and it uses a micro usb port. The jack is messed up. One lesson learned is never buy a controler with micro usb. Micro usb is the "armpitamy" of bad engineering. I have a lot of IK software but I forget it's there. I've started using ST3 to audition midi files. Their upgrade pricing seems to irritate plenty of people.


I had the same issue with the micro USB on that keyboard. I bought a nice high quality USB cable with a material covering (instead of plastic) from Radio Shack and it fixed the issue.

Scarlet Jerry


----------



## kitekrazy

ScarletJerry said:


> I had the same issue with the micro USB on that keyboard. I bought a nice high quality USB cable with a material covering (instead of plastic) from Radio Shack and it fixed the issue.
> 
> Scarlet Jerry



I'm still looking for that magic cable the works. Easy fix is never buy any controller using that port.


----------



## tsk

Well, I'm here revisiting this thread which I did not realize would become so large.

To revise my first post, I would say that specifically Output's Exhale has been my biggest disappointment, relative to my expectations. Every time I open Exhale I find myself eventually closing it in frustration and not getting anything good out of it. I have better luck with other vocal clips in a sampler. That also uses much less CPU.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

chris hein orchestral brass

I just don't like the library


----------



## David McNamara

Jerry Growl said:


> It was an audacious collection at the time. Great detail, lots of microphones, lots of Gigabytes... At best I can play it for 10 minutes, before I feel miserable.



I revisited the EWQL Pianos Platinum over the past couple of days and arrived at the same feeling and conclusion as you. I tweaked the settings and mic balances for a couple of hours and nothing I did could change the misery of improvising on them. At this point I'll archive them to a 7200 RPM drive because they're wasting space on an SSD.


----------



## Robert_G

David McNamara said:


> I revisited the EWQL Pianos Platinum over the past couple of days and arrived at the same feeling and conclusion as you. I tweaked the settings and mic balances for a couple of hours and nothing I did could change the misery of improvising on them.



Been there done that. They are unusable. Luckily for me, they are only part of my composer cloud and not a purchase.


----------



## Shredoverdrive

ProfoundSilence said:


> chris hein orchestral brass
> 
> I just don't like the library


Just to know, as I'm curious : what is it you don't like in it? I really like it myself.


----------



## Parsifal666

Shredoverdrive said:


> Just to know, as I'm curious : what is it you don't like in it? I really like it myself.



I thought that was curious myself. CH Brass is my go to for solo brass instruments. There is a bit of a learning curve, and it's best to know something about effects/engineering before using them in a project. But for clean sampled solo brass, wws, strings...all default Hein.

Perhaps @ProfoundSilence wanted something more complete out of the box than malleable.


----------



## Shredoverdrive

I suppose if you don't like building your reverb and placing your instruments, it's a little less ideal. But even then, they sound good out of the box, IMHO. And the playability of the dynamic long and dynamic short articulations (that you have in all CH libraries) make it a time-saver to me.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

I feel like it's just not as fluid and playable as sample modeling, but suffered from all the same downsides that working with sample modeling has. 

I think CH (I only have the solo strings) is great, but CH OB just falls flat in too many areas for me. Plus it's got a strange instrumentation (3+3+3) which I didn't like. 

I originally thought CH OB might be a good combo to combine, or mix and match with sample modeling brass - but I didn't find many strengths over sample modelling, so it simply wasn't worth it. If I had no library before hand, I'd probably not regret it, but I had a library that worked and fell for the "grass might be greener" and paid for essentially a downgrade. 

but thanks for erring on the side of me simply being incompetent or impatient rather than accepting that maybe I spent time with the library, had experience with alternatives and came to a rational destination of disappointment.


----------



## dzilizzi

I have to say OT's Kinder Symphony was not what I was expecting. I really expected 2 yr olds bashing on orchestral instruments. Kind of like Ark 1. Not lullaby presets. They are so soft, I can't hear anything. And for how much it costs????  

Happy April's Fools.


----------



## Jeremy Gillam

dzilizzi said:


> I have to say OT's Kinder Symphony was not what I was expecting. I really expected 2 yr olds bashing on orchestral instruments. Kind of like Ark 1. Not lullaby presets. They are so soft, I can't hear anything. And for how much it costs????
> 
> Happy April's Fools.


This is actually a great idea.


----------



## dzilizzi

Jeremy Gillam said:


> This is actually a great idea.


Well, if you have some old instruments and a two year old around, have at it! I'm thinking you might get some great sounds out of it.


----------



## Jeremy Gillam

dzilizzi said:


> Well, if you have some old instruments and a two year old around, have at it! I'm thinking you might get some great sounds out of it.


I have neither but I'm sure the time will come.


----------



## Pantonal

ProfoundSilence said:


> I feel like it's just not as fluid and playable as sample modeling, but suffered from all the same downsides that working with sample modeling has.
> 
> I think CH (I only have the solo strings) is great, but CH OB just falls flat in too many areas for me. Plus it's got a strange instrumentation (3+3+3) which I didn't like.
> 
> I originally thought CH OB might be a good combo to combine, or mix and match with sample modeling brass - but I didn't find many strengths over sample modelling, so it simply wasn't worth it. If I had no library before hand, I'd probably not regret it, but I had a library that worked and fell for the "grass might be greener" and paid for essentially a downgrade.
> 
> but thanks for erring on the side of me simply being incompetent or impatient rather than accepting that maybe I spent time with the library, had experience with alternatives and came to a rational destination of disappointment.


You had to know that CH OB is held in fairly high regard and your comment would pique curiosity and cause others to share their experiences with the lib. I don't recall anyone criticizing you.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Pantonal said:


> You had to know that CH OB is held in fairly high regard and your comment would pique curiosity and cause others to share their experiences with the lib. I don't recall anyone criticizing you.


this was true initially, had not someone responded with wild speculation in an attempt to put their mind at ease that someone had came to a different conclusion. This of course prompted the other user who had simply remained curious to come up with another wild guess. 

" There is a bit of a learning curve, and it's best to know something about effects/engineering before using them"

"Perhaps @ProfoundSilence wanted something more complete out of the box than malleable."

the response to my position was that it takes knowledge and engineering to use them(and immediately he quietly gives himself this credit by stating that he does use them as his default)

I'm not mortally wounded by any of those comments, but a little tact would be useful. If you're interested in why I was disappointed, ask and wait for a response. Maybe Parsifal just isn't aware that he's a victim of confirmation bias because this is less of a direct and obvious example. Both users seem to be actively looking for the first explaination to ease being confronted with conflicting information, I was simply not okay with the subtle implication that the first thing that came to mind was simply inability or inexperience.

CH does have some high esteem around here - which is fine, plenty of excellent products - with excellent approaches. Some might be over zealous, but I assume it's safe to say you were disappointed with a purchase without implicating that the product itself is bad or unusable. Hein is an excellent person, creates some excellent products, and actively tries to push VI in the right direction.

I purchased CH solo strings long after I picked up CH OB/CHHs - so I'm certainly not someone who has ill will towards his products, nor do I have a lack of patience required to work with products. 

but in a gesture of no ill will towards Parsifal, I offer my rendition of ride of the palkyries, where my beloved horn 1 of BB storms through the heavens along side his CH OB horn 1 to bring fallen heroes to odin's great hall.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/rideofthepalkyries-mp3.19251/][/AUDIOPLUS]


----------



## Shredoverdrive

ProfoundSilence said:


> this was true initially, had not someone responded with wild speculation in an attempt to put their mind at ease that someone had came to a different conclusion. This of course prompted the other user who had simply remained curious to come up with another wild guess.
> 
> " There is a bit of a learning curve, and it's best to know something about effects/engineering before using them"
> 
> "Perhaps @ProfoundSilence wanted something more complete out of the box than malleable."
> 
> the response to my position was that it takes knowledge and engineering to use them(and immediately he quietly gives himself this credit by stating that he does use them as his default)
> 
> I'm not mortally wounded by any of those comments, but a little tact would be useful. If you're interested in why I was disappointed, ask and wait for a response. Maybe Parsifal just isn't aware that he's a victim of confirmation bias because this is less of a direct and obvious example. Both users seem to be actively looking for the first explaination to ease being confronted with conflicting information, I was simply not okay with the subtle implication that the first thing that came to mind was simply inability or inexperience.
> 
> CH does have some high esteem around here - which is fine, plenty of excellent products - with excellent approaches. Some might be over zealous, but I assume it's safe to say you were disappointed with a purchase without implicating that the product itself is bad or unusable. Hein is an excellent person, creates some excellent products, and actively tries to push VI in the right direction.
> 
> I purchased CH solo strings long after I picked up CH OB/CHHs - so I'm certainly not someone who has ill will towards his products, nor do I have a lack of patience required to work with products.
> 
> but in a gesture of no ill will towards Parsifal, I offer my rendition of ride of the palkyries, where my beloved horn 1 of BB storms through the heavens along side his CH OB horn 1 to bring fallen heroes to odin's great hall.
> 
> [AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/rideofthepalkyries-mp3.19251/][/AUDIOPLUS]



Well, I'm not sure anyone belittled your skills (hell, mine are pretty low as regards technical matters). The explanation you gave afterwards as to why you're dissapointed with CHOB makes sense. Let's say that without information about it, we've just speculated a little...


----------



## Parsifal666

ProfoundSilence said:


> I feel like it's just not as fluid and playable as sample modeling, but suffered from all the same downsides that working with sample modeling has.
> 
> I think CH (I only have the solo strings) is great, but CH OB just falls flat in too many areas for me. Plus it's got a strange instrumentation (3+3+3) which I didn't like.
> 
> I originally thought CH OB might be a good combo to combine, or mix and match with sample modeling brass - but I didn't find many strengths over sample modelling, so it simply wasn't worth it. If I had no library before hand, I'd probably not regret it, but I had a library that worked and fell for the "grass might be greener" and paid for essentially a downgrade.
> 
> but thanks for erring on the side of me simply being incompetent or impatient rather than accepting that maybe I spent time with the library, had experience with alternatives and came to a rational destination of disappointment.



Hey if ya don't like it, ya don't like it! I really like the solo Trumpet and Trombone in CHOB...

the good news for you is CHOB can be sold. No loss.


----------



## TomislavEP

I had made quite a few errors when purchasing sample libraries, often because of the limited budget. But now I deeply regret for not having been much more patient and pragmatic and purchasing only what I really wanted.

For example, several years ago I was in the market for serious strings library for Kontakt. I had my eyes on Cinematic Strings 2 and Adagietto, but those were quite out of my reach at the time. So I got hooked by the seemingly no brainer deal at VST Buzz - they've offering more than 70% off for London Symphonic Strings by Aria Sounds. So I've thought - I won't be a snob and I'll give a less prominent developer a chance. But in this particular case it was a bad call. LSS is seemingly a huge library in the terms of size and contents, but its sound quality, programming and actual usability are less then great. The most bitter part of this story is the fact that the developers were promising serious updates of the library, but in the end they've abandoned the whole project altogether and don't even offer the original release version on their website anymore.

Today, when I have three Albions, Adagietto and other smaller solo string libraries, I've forgot about this purchase, but it had definitely left a bad aftertaste.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Parsifal666 said:


> Hey if ya don't like it, ya don't like it! I really like the solo Trumpet and Trombone in CHOB...
> 
> the good news for you is CHOB can be sold. No loss.



ill be honest, simply too lazy for it. If someone wants it at a discounted price feel free to PM me, but in general I've had a poor experience selling things 2nd hand. Often times people just want to nickel and dime you, and when you stoop that low on price, It's more utility sitting on my hard drive on the off chance I need it for something. That and I considered bundling a lot of software with my roli seaboard in an attempt to sell it, so it's not a bad thing to keep around for that(part of the reason I wanted CH OB to work, is that it works with the roli while the samplemodeling instruments don't)

Alas I gave up on the roli + full swam dream.


----------



## Casiquire

ProfoundSilence said:


> I feel like it's just not as fluid and playable as sample modeling, but suffered from all the same downsides that working with sample modeling has.



Interesting, i disagree. The only downsides are the dryness and sometimes tone but CH handles both of those better. In fact by virtue of relying more fully on actual samples rather than modeling often the tone is already better with CH. I do think there's a slight sacrifice of fluidity but the trade off is there's some built in expression if i want it.

I mean this less to imply that you're wrong and more to explain my own experience, understanding that disagreement on matters of taste is totally normal!


----------



## Parsifal666

Casiquire said:


> Interesting, i disagree. The only downsides are the dryness and sometimes tone but CH handles both of those better. In fact by virtue of relying more fully on actual samples rather than modeling often the tone is already better with CH. I do think there's a slight sacrifice of fluidity but the trade off is there's some built in expression if i want it.
> 
> I mean this less to imply that you're wrong and more to explain my own experience, understanding that disagreement on matters of taste is totally normal!



The Hein instruments can take some EQ and reverb to sound great, and it can take some patience to apply such. Anyone whom gets really interested in preparing their music either for yourself and/or others stands a ton to gain by gaining even minor engineering chops.


----------



## quantum7

There are plenty of subpar libraries, but I honestly believe if you really know what you are doing, you can coax a great performance out of nearly any library.....it's just a bit more work and frustration, but it can be done! Some of my best work over the years was using very basic libraries. Sometimes working with material that is limited brings out the best in a creative mind. I often have found that libraries that can do just about anything can somewhat cripple my creativity....strange by true! I will NEVER let a limited library stop me from using it to its full potential...and sometimes even surpassing it with a bit of imagination...and even a bit of luck. I would rather open Melodyne and fix a performance with a limited library, rather than have to spend hundreds of dollars more in chasing the forever elusive "all perfect" library.


----------



## Casiquire

Parsifal666 said:


> The Hein instruments can take some EQ and reverb to sound great, and it can take some patience to apply such. Anyone whom gets really interested in preparing their music either for yourself and/or others stands a ton to gain by gaining even minor engineering chops.



I never meant to indicate otherwise


----------



## Hasici

8dio are masters at creating demos that don't translate with the same enthusiasm to the actual instrument. Practically any 8dio library I bought was a waste.


----------



## WaveRider

Hasici said:


> 8dio are masters at creating demos that don't translate with the same enthusiasm to the actual instrument. Practically any 8dio library I bought was a waste.



Couldn't agree more... especially the pianos.


----------



## sIR dORT

Hasici said:


> 8dio are masters at creating demos that don't translate with the same enthusiasm to the actual instrument. Practically any 8dio library I bought was a waste.


Yes. Had that with Synphony - decent library, but not nearly as useable as the demos made it out to be.


----------



## Robert_G

Hasici said:


> 8dio are masters at creating demos that don't translate with the same enthusiasm to the actual instrument. Practically any 8dio library I bought was a waste.



Whats his name Troels could bang 2 pieces of framing lumber together, sample it, and make a convincing demo out of it.


----------



## Dex

ProfoundSilence said:


> it works with the roli while the samplemodeling instruments don't)
> 
> Alas I gave up on the roli + full swam dream.



What? Why not? Is there not a viable cc remapping you could do?


----------



## Random Guy

Hasici said:


> To be precise - the 8dio teasers are the biggest tricksters. Wouldn't it be actually funny if they use actual real musicians to make the teasers - sort of like they do teasers for games which are per-rendered and not the actual game engine, then you get the game and it looks far worse... because that it feels to me. (Conspiracies, conspiracies)



You're right. I definitely believe 8Dio is a company with very loose ethics. I was going to write a long post sometime in the future, but I'll just chime in now.

Their libraries are substandard at best. A lot of recycled garbage which I believe is then fed to developers in India, and then churned out with a fancy cover.

I have counted no less than four products I bought of theirs which are grossly out of tune with the tune key switch feature. We're talking around two semitones. Off the top of my head, these are some of the vocal libraries, Hybrid Tools - Dark Prophecy, The New Ambient Guitar, and many more.

To be frank, they just sound crap. And to top it off, my latest discovery is that 66 Basses has no extended sustain like all other libraries. Their version of sustain lasts around 6 seconds, then drops out. The library is completely useless to me.

I have contacted 8Dio numerous times about these issues and more, only to be fobbed off and treated with indifference. They promise to fix the problem, but they have no intention to.

Another issue is their Christmas sale bonanza, which is another way of schilling out their crapware. I fell for the trap and bought some of their libraries after being rewarded with a free one. It turns out that the last purchase did not reward me with the free library that I was only interested in. So, I ended up spending money to buy something I never wanted.

I contacted 8Dio about this, and they said it was a 'glitch' in the system. I just love those excuses.

And don't get me started on their 'competitions'. From what I've heard, they're also a time-wasting scam.

In truth, 8Dio's pricing is overinflated. For a company to reduce up to 80% on a product during a sale is very telling. Even at these sale rates, the libraries are just not worth buying. Can you imagine Spitfire Audio and Orchestral Tools dropping a library price by 80%? It's unheard of. It only shows that customers are already paying way over the actual valued price with 8Dio.

I truly believe that the fault lies with review sites who are given free copies to appraise, only to give disingenuous reviews, and not outline the fatal flaws in 8Dio's libraries. These review sites are terrified of giving negative reviews lest 8Dio and other companies fail to send new products in the future. I'm not mentioning any names.

My advice is to stay away from 8Dio. If you read through these forums, they are certainly starting to get a reputation for shoddy workmanship and deceptive practices.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Dex said:


> What? Why not? Is there not a viable cc remapping you could do?


Primary issue is that the pitch bend range is a maximum of 2, and the roli simply doesn't work well in this range. 12 or more pitch bend range makes it handle much better.

an example(if my memory serves me) would be if you were to play an F, then an Ab - if it was a little flat - there is a chance it would try to read that as a G pitched up or something, and instead of a minor 3rd, I'd have a major 2nd. Hard to explain, but I didn't have this problem using the hein instruments, wivi, or even play engine. 

like I said, I'm not entirely sure why it behaved poorly - but the roli simply didn't work well at +2/-2, and samplemodeling has a max pitch bend range of +2/-2, scripted into it - and the developers have basically said it's not going to be fixed.


----------



## Dex

So the roli itself behaves poorly when you set it to +2/-2 pitchbend? I'm curious because Geoshred works fine with +2/-2 pitchbend vst's. (I don't have a roli or any of the samplemodeling stuff.)


----------



## dexterjettser

Not exactly disappointing but if I had to do things over again when I invested in sample libraries I would have gone with someone besides spitfire. Spitfire makes amazing samples and I have no complaints about their quality but if I had to do things over again I’d go with orchestral tools. I like how comprehensive OT’s Berlin series is, certain things like them taking the time to sample different horn or flute players. Adds lots of realism when you can write for individual parts instead of blobs of sound. Berlin percussion has endless options for picking various drums. You feel like you have way more control of the orchestra. I feel I’d like Berlin strings because with smaller sections you have options for more realistic divisi. I like how everything is recorded in the same space. I like how you get all the mics in one place. I like how the legato is in the same patch as the rest of the articulations. I’m sure like any other library there would be quirks to work around but what I think really matters is just knowing your individual needs and how you work and then making a purchase. How patches are set up is a small thing but it really has altered how I’ve set up my entire template. Not a huge deal tbh. Also I’m a big fan of how the cinematic studio series is layed out-there’s something to be said for consistent interfaces that are easy to use. Spitfire interfaces are fine, useable but nothing special.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

dexterjettser said:


> Not exactly disappointing but if I had to do things over again when I invested in sample libraries I would have gone with someone besides spitfire. Spitfire makes amazing samples and I have no complaints about their quality but if I had to do things over again I’d go with orchestral tools. I like how comprehensive OT’s Berlin series is, certain things like them taking the time to sample different horn or flute players. Adds lots of realism when you can write for individual parts instead of blobs of sound. Berlin percussion has endless options for picking various drums. You feel like you have way more control of the orchestra. I feel I’d like Berlin strings because with smaller sections you have options for more realistic divisi. I like how everything is recorded in the same space. I like how you get all the mics in one place. I like how the legato is in the same patch as the rest of the articulations. I’m sure like any other library there would be quirks to work around but what I think really matters is just knowing your individual needs and how you work and then making a purchase. How patches are set up is a small thing but it really has altered how I’ve set up my entire template. Not a huge deal tbh. Also I’m a big fan of how the cinematic studio series is layed out-there’s something to be said for consistent interfaces that are easy to use. Spitfire interfaces are fine, useable but nothing special.



biggest issue with OT is the massive requirements to get full use out of them. ofcourse you could always set up a sketching template using 1 mic and 1 instrument per family, but don't beat yourself up - because if you don't have the rig to use OT in a way that fit your work flow - then you'd be having different headaches. 

but yes, it gripes me when you record for instance solo flute - then flute a2... JUST RECORD THE TWO SEPERATE FLUTES lol. Although sometimes I wish I just used a really small template with less options, because all the options can certainly be paralyzing at times.


----------



## dexterjettser

ProfoundSilence said:


> biggest issue with OT is the massive requirements to get full use out of them. ofcourse you could always set up a sketching template using 1 mic and 1 instrument per family, but don't beat yourself up - because if you don't have the rig to use OT in a way that fit your work flow - then you'd be having different headaches.
> 
> but yes, it gripes me when you record for instance solo flute - then flute a2... JUST RECORD THE TWO SEPERATE FLUTES lol. Although sometimes I wish I just used a really small template with less options, because all the options can certainly be paralyzing at times.


I know right?! Like if I want to combine the flutes I’ll do it myself! Also I’ll point out I’m not really one for doubling woodwinds a2 (two oboes on one part just makes me uncomfortable for example). Spitfire has great samples, very resource friendly. They get the job done. And countless pros use them and the mockups always sound amazing. You do have a point with limiting options. The less libraries you have the harder you have to work to get the sound you want. Eliminates decision fatigue. That’s how I am with plugins. I’m not a mix engineer so I don’t need 10 different compressors or EQs. Just have my workhorses that I know well and can get good results with. But then I see something shiny and the next thing I know I’m checking out on PayPal


----------



## ProfoundSilence

well if you have the money, I personally wish I had more than 128 gb of ram using OT.

the multi in capsule is very powerful, but eats up ram like it's going out of style.

but that said, if you have the ram to mix mics AND you use multi's to blend articulations - you don't need EQ or plugins.


----------



## chocobitz825

Lol, this thread proves you can't please everyone. Some love spitfire, some orchestral tools, some 8dio. I couldn’t get into CSSS at first, but then suffered through learning the fine details of the CC settings and then also gained an appreciation for spitfires versatility. Now orchestral tools are starting to show some lacking in versatility by comparison. Still, love 8dio and OT’s tone but 8dio in particular does have its odd quirks. I don’t think any of these makers are bad. We just have workflows and needs. We’ll probably never agree on what is best or worst because we all have different priorities.


----------



## Random Guy

chocobitz825 said:


> Lol, this thread proves you can't please everyone. Some love spitfire, some orchestral tools, some 8dio. I couldn’t get into CSSS at first, but then suffered through learning the fine details of the CC settings and then also gained an appreciation for spitfires versatility. Now orchestral tools are starting to show some lacking in versatility by comparison. Still, love 8dio and OT’s tone but 8dio in particular does have its odd quirks. I don’t think any of these makers are bad. We just have workflows and needs. We’ll probably never agree on what is best or worst because we all have different priorities.



Releasing a product where the key tune is out by at least two semitones is a deal breaker, and a sign of a shoddy company. Even more when said company refuses to issue an update or an apology.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

chocobitz825 said:


> Lol, this thread proves you can't please everyone. Some love spitfire, some orchestral tools, some 8dio. I couldn’t get into CSSS at first, but then suffered through learning the fine details of the CC settings and then also gained an appreciation for spitfires versatility. Now orchestral tools are starting to show some lacking in versatility by comparison.



strange… there are some things I liked about SF library ui's - like the round robin stack feature, but I can't see where you feel like there is more versatility with SF's ui vs CSS... maybe I misunderstood you - and you enjoy the sheer amount of articulations in some of their symphonic series? 

I admit I kind of miss flautando, but being able to crossfade between 3 different kinds of bowing techniques in legato is unquestionably made SF obsolete to me. Although BS+ exp a and b isn't cheap - capsule has opened up a mountain of possibilities, even at it's steep resource cost. If there was another way to crossfade between other articulations - it would be awesome.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

on the contrary, this is a thread specifically for airing grievances - and 8dio's quality control isn't exactly stellar. I know some talented people who use some 8dio patches because they are the only ones that can do what they do - but also aren't going to sugar coat them as being hit and miss.

Nothing is sacred, and if someone bought something they were disappointed in - then it's perfectly fine for it end up in a thread titled "most disappointing library purchase". Maybe you confused this thread for the sub forum "SAMPLE Talk". Unless you're truly suggesting that criticizing libraries that people spend hundreds(and thousands) of dollars on should not be welcome on the internet, and users should just play Russian roulette and just buy libraries blindly hoping there aren't any serious faults that would prevent them from making a purchase.

when Christmas sales were going on, there was a whole thread praising 8dio - so maybe you're overreacting on the negativity you're experiencing.


----------



## chocobitz825

Random Guy said:


> Releasing a product where the key tune is out by at least two semitones is a deal breaker, and a sign of a shoddy company. Even more when said company refuses to issue an update or an apology.




Not trying to excuse them. Rather I don’t get too caught up in these things anymore since vi-control is constant exposure to people’s gripes and developers shortcomings. In 8dio it’s pitchy recordings or mistakes. For others they’re too wet, or too dry, or the legato isn’t good enough, or the instruments aren’t tuned right, or samples aren’t programmed correctly etc etc. Every time there is someone who finds these things to be so big a deal that the library is “unusable”. Only thing that’s matters in the end is if you can use it or not. There are still many good useable things in 8dio for me, as well as other makers.


----------



## chocobitz825

ProfoundSilence said:


> strange… there are some things I liked about SF library ui's - like the round robin stack feature, but I can't see where you feel like there is more versatility with SF's ui vs CSS... maybe I misunderstood you - and you enjoy the sheer amount of articulations in some of their symphonic series?
> 
> I admit I kind of miss flautando, but being able to crossfade between 3 different kinds of bowing techniques in legato is unquestionably made SF obsolete to me. Although BS+ exp a and b isn't cheap - capsule has opened up a mountain of possibilities, even at it's steep resource cost. If there was another way to crossfade between other articulations - it would be awesome.



I think what I mean to say is, there are just moods that change with the projects and access to new libraries. Truth is they’re all great in different ways and it’s fun to find where they fit. CSSS is versatile and easy to use but sometimes doesn’t feel as full as I want it to. Spitfire sometimes doesn’t feel like it’s worth it’s price, but again these moods change when I crack open the manual and try something new. OT has always been my go to, but it’s vibrato is not as versatile as others. Nonetheless they all get used depending on where the fit. In that way it’s like having a bunch of different players for each project.


----------



## Random Guy

I won't be changing my opinion that 8Dio is a sham company that churns out shit products and even shittier customer service. I'm amazed at the blind loyalty for such a shyster company. They won't be getting my hard earned money ever again.


----------



## chocobitz825

Random Guy said:


> I won't be changing my opinion that 8Dio is a sham company that churns out shit products and even shittier customer service. I'm amazed at the blind loyalty for such a shyster company. They won't be getting my hard earned money ever again.



Fair enough



Living Fossil said:


> So far, i really liked this forum, because it wasn't going the kvr-route (i.e. when hobbyists bash everything they either can't afford or understand).
> And - without knowing you - i would be somehow glad if you wouldn't post such statements which will damage the reputation and value of this forum.
> 
> I have lots of 8dio libraries (as libraries from lots of other developers) and i think your assumptions are not only false but dangerous.
> Some of them may have flaws (as have the libraries of almost every other developers...), but don't attack them if the library isn't doing the work for you. Since that is your part.



I would agree that criticizing a library and condemning a maker in whole is a different level. Customer service for me has been good and having collected a fair amount of 8dio products as well, I’ve had more satisfying experiences than not.


----------



## Hasici

Random Guy said:


> Another issue is their Christmas sale bonanza, which is another way of schilling out their crapware. I fell for the trap and bought some of their libraries
> ....


Guilty as charged over here!


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Random Guy said:


> Releasing a product where the key tune is out by at least two semitones is a deal breaker, and a sign of a shoddy company. Even more when said company refuses to issue an update or an apology.


Can you post an example? I'd be interested to hear that.


----------



## Robert_G

Im shocked at the 8dio hate here.
I agree, that in the music sampling world, 8dio is in their own little corner and plays by a different set of rules.

Some of their early stuff is certainly questionable, but Im not sure how anyone who has used their Century Series can say anything bad about those libraries. They are both fantastic well thought out libraries.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Random Guy said:


> I won't be changing my opinion that 8Dio is a sham company that churns out shit products and even shittier customer service. I'm amazed at the blind loyalty for such a shyster company. They won't be getting my hard earned money ever again.


I don't think there is anyone who is blindly loyal to 8dio - it's simply that deal breakers for some aren't deal breakers for all.

century brass is pretty underrated, and honestly the older string libraries are still in use by some people, because despite it's faults - do some things very well.


----------



## Hasici

Robert_G said:


> Im shocked at the 8dio hate here.


I don't necessary think it is a hate. For me I learned a lesson. Don't buy something because of well produced demos and well written copy. 
If I was able to trial in advance the stuff I had purchased from 8dio for example I would not buy it afterwards! They know that, so this is a business model largely based on the sales pitch, not a test drive. Typical in this industry.
But because I can't test drive stuff before and there is no return policy, the only thing I literally have is to bitch about it when it doesn't meet the expectation. I had to make my money by selling my time and knowledge and that money did not returned anything useful in case of my 8dio purchases. Sending it to charity would be a better use.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Hasici said:


> the only thing I literally have is to bitch about it when it doesn't meet the expectation.


You can help others by saying which specific libraries have issues, and what the issues are. Maybe post an audio example.

Not all 8Dio stuff is flawed; I feel pretty good about the epic perc and the Claire winds I've bought on flash sale. 8Dioboe and Adagio Violas are bumpy at times, but still useful if you can get them cheap on flash sale.

Even though you can't test drive sample libraries (except Best Service, maybe), you can spend some time searching VI Control, and hopefully benefit from other people's posts. Especially if they post the specifics, and maybe some audio examples. Musicians Helping Musicians.


----------



## pmountford

The problem as I see it is that so many people feel their reviews need to be shared. If I had of listened to so much of the negativity towards 8DIO on this forum I wouldn't have bought many of their libraries. As it is, I generally found that what I've purchased has a place in my workflow that sounds sufficiently different from most other developers. Sure, there are definitely a few bum libraries that I wished I'd not purchased but there are far more that I'm glad I do have.


----------



## Erick - BVA

pmountford said:


> The problem as I see it is that so many people feel their reviews need to be shared. If I had of listened to so much of the negativity towards 8DIO on this forum I wouldn't have bought many of their libraries. As it is, I generally found that what I've purchased has a place in my workflow that sounds sufficiently different from most other developers. Sure, there are definitely a few bum libraries that I wished I'd not purchased but there are far more that I'm glad I do have.


Exactly my sentiments.


----------



## jbuhler

pmountford said:


> The problem as I see it is that so many people feel their reviews need to be shared. If I had of listened to so much of the negativity towards 8DIO on this forum I wouldn't have bought many of their libraries. As it is, I generally found that what I've purchased has a place in my workflow that sounds sufficiently different from most other developers. Sure, there are definitely a few bum libraries that I wished I'd not purchased but there are far more that I'm glad I do have.


I like the reviews because it gives me a better sense of what to expect, especially when there is no general system in place to try the instruments out. Sometimes the reviews can be maddening and seem hyperbolic, often the reviewers seem to have an agenda. But it's rare that a critical point in a review does not identify a real problem, even if I find it manageable. AndI think it's good going in to know what sorts of limitations you are likely to encounter (because virtual instruments, even the best in class, still suffer from real limitations).


----------



## musicboyy

I honestly don't think I can pinpoint a library I've purchased that I'm completely disappointed in. While I definitely like some more than others, I always find something I can work with. In regards to 8DIO, I only have a handful of their libraries which I mostly purchased during flash deals...all in all, I do like them. I try to rely on walkthroughs instead of the demos but sometimes Troels just spends way too much time talking (very quickly) and praising the interface more than just showing the sounds. I appreciate his enthusiasm, but it comes across as the interface, code and ability to manipulate the sounds are the stars...not the sounds themselves.


----------



## ism

Its not that there isn't lots to love about 8dio libraries. Its that I have found I just can't trust the marketing. Hence the disappointment. Which isn't precisely the same thing as the libraries being bad. 

Even when I have gone on to later ,and after much effort, been able to get good use out of an 8dio library, it's often only after a great deal of frustration involved in first realizing that it doesn't do well what I though it would do when I bought it.

And there is a particular vision in libraries like Claire and Adagio, that is unique and valuable. But I don't really think I adequately understood what it was when I bought it.

It is my ignorance of how to parse developer marketing? Well sure.

But that doesn't really ease the bitterness of the experience.

But in the absence of demos etc, the only way to get past my ignorance as a consumer is to

a) buy 8dio libraries and experience the suffering and seeming infidelity of the marketing, or

b) absorb all the critical opinions here. True, some of these opinions are tainted by bitterness, and so nor really property "critical" in so you eed to account for that. But in the absence of anything resembling a property critical form of sampling library reviewing (the adagios "reviews", for instance are absurdly uncritical, and for the most part as well be an extension of 8dio's marketing department) that's what we got.

Still, there is lots of positive things said about 8dio said here also, especially not that prices are coming down to where, so long as you now what you're buying, there's genuinely good value to be had. 

On a positive note, really enjoying working with the 8dio english horn (having bought it, for for once, actually more or less understanding ahead of time what it was and wasn't going to do compared to, for instance, the spitfire Col Anglais).


----------



## arcy

Spitfire Studio Brass standard. Inconsistent articulations, especially with the horns. Different tone and volume between the articulations, trills bug. I wrote to the SF support just two times.


----------



## Ned Bouhalassa

The most recent for me was Phobos. The preset manager is such a drag to use, and the UI in general is confusing and far from friendly.


----------



## germancomponist

Interestingly, I have never bought a library what was disappointing. There was always a reason why I bought all my libs .... .


----------



## X-Bassist

germancomponist said:


> Interestingly, I have never bought a library what was disappointing. There was always a reason why I bought all my libs .... .



To me an unused library is a disappointment, for surely we plunk down the money with the intention of using the library... unless you just hoard them. 

So, from that aspect, out of all the libraries you‘ve purchased, you’ve gotten use in a song from every one in some way? It is possible if you write a lot of music, but I don’t think I could ever make that claim. More than one had turned out to be less steller than advertised or had glitches that prevent me from using it effectively.

But if so you are the first I have known of, so congrats!


----------



## germancomponist

I usually buy a library when I'm looking for something special. I listen to the demos e.t.c. , Then I buy, or not. Sometimes a single, tiny little sound from a library is enough for me to buy the library. Of many libraries, I do not know the rest they still offer.


----------



## kitekrazy

X-Bassist said:


> To me an unused library is a disappointment, for surely we plunk down the money with the intention of using the library... *unless you just hoard them. *
> 
> So, from that aspect, out of all the libraries you‘ve purchased, you’ve gotten use in a song from every one in some way? It is possible if you write a lot of music, but I don’t think I could ever make that claim. More than one had turned out to be less steller than advertised or had glitches that prevent me from using it effectively.
> 
> But if so you are the first I have known of, so congrats!



I think we do that and then being disappointed after a certain period we just don't use it anymore then the cycle starts again. I think most of us do the same thing with softsynths and mixing plugins.

Anyone ever force themselves to using something because they paid for it?


----------



## X-Bassist

kitekrazy said:


> Anyone ever force themselves to using something because they paid for it?



Anytime I buy something and I'm captured in the moment (because I do watch the walkthroughs and know what sounds I'm going to like) I can easily use it in that moment, but if the playability isn't there and I have to work to get what I want (easier with something like pads, but more difficult with solo instruments or special articulations) then it may never make it off the drafting board. Also some instruments come along that are seriously better in the sound quality or playability department that makes me upgrade.

But the good news is once you get to try a lot out, you realize they are just tools to get the job done. You do want excellent tools, but finding them is a journey in itself. I told myself for years the SCS string sound was too synthy for my ears, but now that I got a deal on them I realize they are perfect for much of my work. Replacing many other libraries that I use to think were as good. They are just so easy to play. Layered with other libraries (like CSS) works well too.

Now I feel I have a good workshop of tools, and it's on to making the music. Perhaps with a specialized saw or micro tools to add in the future. I just think hearing other peoples mistakes might help us to skip over the 6 dozen or so libraries I had to go through to get to stuff I like and can use long term. Assuming tech doesn't radically change in 2026.


----------



## Greg

Spitfire Orbis now takes the cake.


----------



## lahatte

Wow. That was fast, Greg.


----------



## Syncopator

Greg said:


> Spitfire Orbis now takes the cake.



Wasn't it just announced/released today? So, you've already purchased it, and you're already disappointed?


----------



## SimonViklund

Yes Greg - you're making us all curious, please develop!


----------



## JohnG

Sorry Greg!

I'm actually really liking what it does, but my sympathies.


----------



## bfreepro

Details, details!


----------



## Audio Birdi

Hollywood Pop Brass. The sound is great but I do wish they had better isolation between sections. Seems wasted since you can have that Big Band / jazz sound but end up with bleed between sections. Which makes the separate mic positions pointless since you’ll always hear the trumpet blaring in each mic position no matter what is played :/.


----------



## dzilizzi

Audio Birdi said:


> Hollywood Pop Brass. The sound is great but I do wish they had better isolation between sections. Seems wasted since you can have that Big Band / jazz sound but end up with bleed between sections. Which makes the separate mic positions pointless since you’ll always hear the trumpet blaring in each mic position no matter what is played :/.


This is a little concerning since I just picked it up and haven't really played with it.


----------



## Audio Birdi

dzilizzi said:


> This is a little concerning since I just picked it up and haven't really played with it.


It’s not a bad library, just not how I’d imagined it in terms of having separate microphone positions for the playable instrument patches. I do understand their philosophy on wanting everyone in the same room to get that tight sound of big band playing. But do wish the bleed was less. They did primarily market it as an ensemble library. Hope in future they consider doing solo big band instruments for us to put to good use with the same detailed sampling as HW Brass.


----------



## ProfoundSilence

metropolis ark 3

great concept, but my OCD is irritated that it wasn't the same ensembles as ark 1, and doesn't come with more standard articulations.

it's not a bad library by any stretch, and its 100% my expectations being the problem, but honestly it just sounds so good but doesn't have a basic set of artics so its hard to use(unless you're just reaching for what the library does)


----------



## Greg

SimonViklund said:


> Yes Greg - you're making us all curious, please develop!



I was hoping the sound sources would be more elaborate and interesting. Lots of the same sound recorded and edited in not so interesting ways makes this a bust for me. I went through every single sound to pick out stuff I heard potential in to edit further but found only a few things. Just a big disappointment for me, in the context of my work (trailer music and dark film soundtracks.) I wouldn't call it a bad library or bad value for money though.


----------



## Gerbil

I'm a big fan of Soundiron's libraries but I'm going to have to go with Hyperion Strings Elements. Nice pizzicatos and well thought-out GUI aside, I thought they'd be a big improvement on the synthetic sound of the micro strings but, to my ears, they're not. I actually find them quite painful to listen to.

*UPDATE: Nathan's cool with my daughter using them on her laptop and she's thrilled they're going on. Cool guy. Cool company. I don't want this to throw other people off because it really is just a personal thing (I'm scratching my head at 95% of the entries in this thread). I know there are plenty of you out there that really like them. *


----------



## dsblais

Gerbil said:


> I'm a big fan of Soundiron's libraries but I'm going to have to go with Hyperion Strings Elements. Nice pizzicatos and well thought-out GUI aside, I thought they'd be a big improvement on the synthetic sound of the micro strings but, to my ears, they're not. I actually find them quite painful to listen to.


I’m with you on that. I love Soundiron, but the synthy sound on Hyperion was unexpected and very disappointing.


----------



## dzilizzi

dsblais said:


> I’m with you on that. I love Soundiron, but the synthy sound on Hyperion was unexpected and very disappointing.


The micro sounded synthy. How could the elements not sound synthy? I probably won't get the "full" version, but I think I can use it as it is. And frankly, I can make any strings sound synthy.....


----------



## dsblais

dzilizzi said:


> The micro sounded synthy. How could the elements not sound synthy? I probably won't get the "full" version, but I think I can use it as it is. And frankly, I can make any strings sound synthy.....


You're right, I'm sure. I didn't have micro, so took a chance with elements. It might still be useful somewhere and it's not my most disappointing library purchase (I'd rather not say what was as I appreciate the work of the developers), I just wish I had better understood that's what I was getting into it. I should have listened to more walkthroughs!


----------



## TrojakEW

8Dio Soul Series: Christopher Young – The Collection. Yes I have watched walkthrough and read/look for information's regarding this library everywhere before buy. It was looking interesting until I get my hands on it. Even I got it at 40% off sale it is still too much for what it does. Maybe if it was flash sale for 8$ I will not care but because l paid 238$ I have to post this rant.

It feels like bunch of one shot samples packed together with very different quality and different room baked in especially in textural worlds. No looping and most of "instruments" sounds muddy or harsh. In order to get rid of IR reverb you have to get inside kontakt and remove/bypass it there because you can't turn if off completely in gui and it makes sound muddy or harsh even more. Worst is that their stretch feature is bugged and it is not working as it should. I have send them all required information regarding this bug at may 13 with included video showing the problem. After that I received mail may 27 with some files that fix only Orchestral touch from library but not rest. So I respond them again that they not fix the rest. Again they want me to prove it so I send them (may 28) another video showing that the same bug is in every instrument/patch in whole collection as I mention in my very first report about that bug. No response from them. There was 8Dio competition where you have to compose track using this library yet they have still not fixed the issue. Send them total four emails but it was not enough to get their attention.


----------



## purple

*Audiobro Modern Scoring Brass.* The scripting and all the detailed tweaking that can be done would be great, but the samples suck! The instruments mostly sound awful(I'm talking tone-wise, not even scripting. The trombones don't even sound like trombones) and/or are very difficult to mix especially with eachother. The library takes gigs and gigs and is still missing a ton of dynamic range. It sells itself as a library that takes a lot of tweaking-and it does, but the results are honestly never even close to other libraries IMO. The content simply isn't there to _be _manipulated. 

That's all not to mention the performance issues I've had. It seizes up constantly (I'm talking several seconds of the interface freezing happening randomly but frequently on the scale of only dozens of seconds in distance) and saving a project with any of these instruments loaded takes significantly longer than with any other library. But hey, performance issues can just be my own system not playing nicely. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## antonioserio

purple said:


> *Audiobro Modern Scoring Brass.* The scripting and all the detailed tweaking that can be done would be great, but the samples suck! The instruments mostly sound awful(I'm talking tone-wise, not even scripting. The trombones don't even sound like trombones) and/or are very difficult to mix especially with eachother. The library takes gigs and gigs and is still missing a ton of dynamic range. It sells itself as a library that takes a lot of tweaking-and it does, but the results are honestly never even close to other libraries IMO. The content simply isn't there to _be _manipulated.
> 
> That's all not to mention the performance issues I've had. It seizes up constantly (I'm talking several seconds of the interface freezing happening randomly but frequently on the scale of only dozens of seconds in distance) and saving a project with any of these instruments loaded takes significantly longer than with any other library. But hey, performance issues can just be my own system not playing nicely. Your mileage may vary.


Strange.

I saw the video of real - video explanation of this sample library , and I think it is one of the best at this time.


----------



## Chungus

I don't own many libraries, (Yet. >.> ) but the most disappointing one in my collection would have to be EW's Voices of the Opera.

Not even because it's terrible - I've used it to satisfactory results - but because it doesn't do what I expected it would. When I heard the demos and heard the phrases, and I thought; "oh, cool! A soloist library with word builder!" Which was quite silly of me, but hey.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

The cheaper libraries that I've bought in an attempt to get that 'budget alternative' have usually been the ones that disappointed me the most. I've started telling myself to just save for the better libraries since you do pay for what you get, I guess.


----------



## AndyP

1. Sampletank 4 Max

Not because it sounds bad, but I have no use for most of the stuff. The good old sales trap, so it was my fault. 

ST2 and 3 was nice and I was a great fan of the original Miroslav library, it was my first vsti orchestral library. 

The Miroslav update 2.0 contained to my surprise the complete version 1.0 with some fixes and there were patches with keyswitches now. 
But no legato, not even something like a fake legato. some patches were nice but I had some new libraries I liked better.

ST4 Max was a real challenge to download and install. And the included Miroslav 2 CE was also completely in the original Miroslav 2 Update. Not a single new sound, even no legato. Well, it was only one part of the package, but it doesn't have to be recycled that way (if you already have Miro 2).

The ST4 player is also not very resource friendly and there were some strange bugs. Meanwhile, the installation is no longer on my work disks. I didn't miss it either.

I didn't like the organization of the browser very much either, so it was a bad buy for me.


----------



## Fleer

Upgrading from the full SampleTank 3 with some added instruments I decided ST4 SE would be just fine for me.


----------



## Fleer

Chungus said:


> I don't own many libraries, (Yet. >.> ) but the most disappointing one in my collection would have to be EW's Voices of the Opera.
> 
> Not even because it's terrible - I've used it to satisfactory results - but because it doesn't do what I expected it would. When I heard the demos and heard the phrases, and I thought; "oh, cool! A soloist library with word builder!" Which was quite silly of me, but hey.


Here’s hoping the upcoming Backing Vocals library will be up to scratch.


----------



## Guy Rowland

purple said:


> *Audiobro Modern Scoring Brass.* The scripting and all the detailed tweaking that can be done would be great, but the samples suck! The instruments mostly sound awful(I'm talking tone-wise, not even scripting. The trombones don't even sound like trombones) and/or are very difficult to mix especially with eachother. The library takes gigs and gigs and is still missing a ton of dynamic range. It sells itself as a library that takes a lot of tweaking-and it does, but the results are honestly never even close to other libraries IMO. The content simply isn't there to _be _manipulated.
> 
> That's all not to mention the performance issues I've had. It seizes up constantly (I'm talking several seconds of the interface freezing happening randomly but frequently on the scale of only dozens of seconds in distance) and saving a project with any of these instruments loaded takes significantly longer than with any other library. But hey, performance issues can just be my own system not playing nicely. Your mileage may vary.



Occasionally you read a post that comes from a completely different planet.


----------



## Ryan

Greg said:


> Spitfire Phobos. So far from what I thought it was that I uninstalled it and wrote it off as an impulsive disaster buy.


yeah, same with me.


----------



## NYC Composer

This thread is aging like a fine whine.


----------



## Kadirally

Cinesamples Solo Strings.

Expected Tina Guo Legato levels of quality and expression. Turned out to be a library which i never use.


----------



## kitekrazy

AndyP said:


> 1. Sampletank 4 Max
> 
> Not because it sounds bad, but I have no use for most of the stuff. The good old sales trap, so it was my fault.
> 
> ST2 and 3 was nice and I was a great fan of the original Miroslav library, it was my first vsti orchestral library.
> 
> The Miroslav update 2.0 contained to my surprise the complete version 1.0 with some fixes and there were patches with keyswitches now.
> But no legato, not even something like a fake legato. some patches were nice but I had some new libraries I liked better.
> 
> ST4 Max was a real challenge to download and install. And the included Miroslav 2 CE was also completely in the original Miroslav 2 Update. Not a single new sound, even no legato. Well, it was only one part of the package, but it doesn't have to be recycled that way (if you already have Miro 2).
> 
> The ST4 player is also not very resource friendly and there were some strange bugs. Meanwhile, the installation is no longer on my work disks. I didn't miss it either.
> 
> I didn't like the organization of the browser very much either, so it was a bad buy for me.



So have you auditioned all of those sounds? Miroslav CE takes a lot of work compared to just about every library.


----------



## AndyP

kitekrazy said:


> So have you auditioned all of those sounds? Miroslav CE takes a lot of work compared to just about every library.


Yes, because I´ve had them already in the Miroslav 2 update. The CE2 is only a slimmed down version of the full version.
What annoyed me was that Ik polished up a lot of the old content and ST3 sounds were recycled. 
I'm also not saying that I don't like the Miroslav sounds in general, but now there are a lot of librarys that sound better and are more playable. The update to version 2 was an improvement, but not really good.
I like the sound of the solo violin, but the different articulations are extremely difficult to harmonize.
I think after 10 years it is also legitimate to change.


----------



## MaxOctane

Ryan said:


> yeah, same with me.



We need a Phobos support group. As in, emotional support. 

Christian Henson's demo was brilliant, and the library sure seems full of promise, but the usability is still super rough. It's mostly just missing better preview capabilities on the sound sources and IRs. Full of gems but super hard to find.


----------



## Ryan

MaxOctane said:


> We need a Phobos support group. As in, emotional support.
> 
> Christian Henson's demo was brilliant, and the library sure seems full of promise, but the usability is still super rough. It's mostly just missing better preview capabilities on the sound sources and IRs. Full of gems but super hard to find.


Yeah, sure! the library is cool. A lot of potential there. I made this with it: 

but somehow it's not my "go to" library...


----------



## ThePrioryStudio

A surprising thread! Can't say I've regretted any purchases but in a twist of Avatar irony, the BH toolkit hasn't had much love in my recent tracks. I tend to covert these things for months on end reading and watching reviews, walkthroughs etc so I pretty much know what I'm getting or I either buy a library for a specific project and therefore use it all the time while that's being completed.


----------



## VVEremita

Chungus said:


> I don't own many libraries, (Yet. >.> ) but the most disappointing one in my collection would have to be EW's Voices of the Opera.
> 
> Not even because it's terrible - I've used it to satisfactory results - but because it doesn't do what I expected it would. When I heard the demos and heard the phrases, and I thought; "oh, cool! A soloist library with word builder!" Which was quite silly of me, but hey.



I recenty bought Virharmonics Soloists of Prague which is a soloist library with wordbuilder and was kind of disappointent. It does exactly what it was advertised to do and is by no means a bad product. But it is impossible to get these right. Solo Voiced are problematic, wordbuilders as well... To combine them in a realistic way seems hardly possible.


----------



## NYC Composer

VVEremita said:


> I recenty bought Virharmonics Soloists of Prague which is a soloist library with wordbuilder and was kind of disappointent. It does exactly what it was advertised to do and is by no means a bad product. But it is impossible to get these right. Solo Voiced are problematic, wordbuilders as well... To combine them in a realistic way seems hardly possible.


Which is why I’d say that for the present it’s a good idea to temper your expectations. We’re not yet at the point where word builders will allow for distinct words, but for a general choral feeling of singing _something_ with nice tone, they do the job.


----------



## VVEremita

NYC Composer said:


> Which is why I’d say that for the present it’s a good idea to temper your expectations. We’re not yet at the point where word builders will allow for distinct words, but for a general choral feeling of singing _something_ with nice tone, they do the job.



Yes, my expectations were unrealistic. From what I have learned I regard libraries with wordbuilders that are capable of building any word as highly advanced tools for choral writing. Lyrics and phrasing are a key element for that.

If it is only for the effect even limited wordbuilders with a few syllabils can achieve nice sounds without actual lyrics and provide the sensation of verbal language.


----------



## Eptesicus

Kadirally said:


> Cinesamples Solo Strings.
> 
> Expected Tina Guo Legato levels of quality and expression. Turned out to be a library which i never use.



I'm surprised by this. I have it and i think the violin 1 and cello in particular are some of the most convincing solo strings available. 

It is a frustrating library in terms of the jumble of articulations and the fact violin 2 and viola didnt get as much attention or the expressive legato that the violin 1 and the cello get.


----------



## Kadirally

Eptesicus said:


> I'm surprised by this. I have it and i think the violin 1 and cello in particular are some of the most convincing solo strings available.
> 
> It is a frustrating library in terms of the jumble of articulations and the fact violin 2 and viola didnt get as much attention or the expressive legato that the violin 1 and the cello get.



It's still a neat library. I expected probably something like the Joshua Bell Violin when it comes to playabilty and expression. Also the Solo section i think should be the best players available and playing highly expressive, this is serviceable but not Guo or Bell levels IMO. But it's in general that delicious legato lines and fast runs are so hard to capture with VI's.


----------



## NeonMediaKJT

Intimate Studio Strings


----------



## jononotbono

JXL Brass. Oh wait, it's not been released yet.


----------



## storyteller

I think the secret is this:

Buy what you really want (and not what price dictates)
Realize that if you cannot make your music sound as good as the demos, then it is your fault and not the library’s fault
...then you will be satisfied with nearly every purchase from the big developers.

(Exceptions do happen though)


----------



## emilio_n

jononotbono said:


> JXL Brass. Oh wait, it's not been released yet.


I have the finger ready to click, but then I think I am not professional and spend so much money in a library will make me feel a really bad and poor man 
I want to buy a Komplete Kontrol S88 so maybe is better keep using Kontakt libraries...


----------



## jononotbono

emilio_n said:


> I want to buy a Komplete Kontrol S88 so maybe is better keep using Kontakt libraries...



Why do you want to buy one?


----------



## jononotbono

emilio_n said:


> I think I am not professional and spend so much money in a library will make me feel a really bad and poor man



We all do.


----------



## emilio_n

jononotbono said:


> Why do you want to buy one?


Just looking for a keyboard with 88 keys and decent keybed. I thought the KK88 is a good choice having the Komplete 12U. Now I have an M-Audio Code 61 that is... not really good.


----------



## jononotbono

emilio_n said:


> decent keybed



Yes. Two very important words. Well... Try one before clicking on "buy", first yeah?


----------



## dzilizzi

jononotbono said:


> JXL Brass. Oh wait, it's not been released yet.


Someone will read this post 6 months from now and think you actually bought it. You'll get a bunch of questions on why you didn't like it.


----------



## jononotbono

dzilizzi said:


> Someone will read this post 6 months from now and think you actually bought it. You'll get a bunch of questions on why you didn't like it.



I always thought there were problems with the timeline of Back to the Future but even this is going to trip me out.

I can only hope we regroup again. I miss you. If we've met already? Man! I still keep getting Metagrid Emails though.


----------



## dzilizzi

jononotbono said:


> I always thought there were problems with the timeline of Back to the Future but even this is going to trip me out.
> 
> I can only hope we regroup again. I miss you. If we've met already? Man! I still keep getting Metagrid Emails though.


You know you can't meet yourself in the timeline or the universe will get all messed up. Say, where did that big blue box come from? Do police phone boxes still exist? Weird.


----------



## jononotbono

dzilizzi said:


> You know you can't meet yourself in the timeline or the universe will get all messed up. Say, where did that big blue box come from? Do police phone boxes still exist? Weird.



Right, 6 months from any multiverse we stumble into and obviously according to the Queen’s time, her wristwatch, Big Ben, I have you know, we shall meet here again. Noon. Yeah Tarantino’s 11th Film is shit too. 😂


----------



## ZentralmassivSound

Honestly, among others, two Orchestral Tools libraries. Symphonic Sphere and String Runs, they weren't for me. Runs is a one trick pony, and you need to blend the runs with your sustains manually, just too much work. Sphere has no legato, so it's rather a basic sketch library.


----------



## jononotbono

ZentralmassivSound said:


> Runs is a one trick pony



Obviously. Why did you buy it if you expected anything else?




ZentralmassivSound said:


> Sphere has no legato, so it's rather a basic sketch library.



You would have known... if you RTFM.


----------



## Michael Antrum

emilio_n said:


> Just looking for a keyboard with 88 keys and decent keybed. I thought the KK88 is a good choice having the Komplete 12U. Now I have an M-Audio Code 61 that is... not really good.



Kawai VPC-1


----------



## ZentralmassivSound

jononotbono said:


> Obviously. Why did you buy it if you expected anything else?


Well I wasn't just clear about the fact that runs seldom stand on their own but need to be blended into the rest of the melodies. Demos hide this aspect nicely from you.




> You would have known... if you RTFM.


Yeah I know. You know, the libraries were on sale, so I didn't have a choice 


_


----------



## jononotbono

ZentralmassivSound said:


> so I didn't have a choice



None of us ever do. You just have to accept it. It's a lot easier


----------



## NYC Composer

Of course you have a choice. For example, I just bought a new tricked up iMac for $4000 instead of the new tricked up Mac Pro for $56,000. See? Choice.


----------



## jononotbono

NYC Composer said:


> Of course you have a choice. For example, I just bought a new tricked up iMac for $4000 instead of the new tricked up Mac Pro for $56,000. See? Choice.



Some choices are worse than others.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Junkie XL Percussion.





Only surdos. LOUD. Spread across the keyboard. FCK them.


----------



## Michael Antrum

jononotbono said:


> Some choices are worse than others.





​


----------



## Ruchir

Still haven’t figured out how to make use of orchestral tools time macro.


----------



## Daily Patcher

+1 for BT Phobos.


----------



## Geoff Grace

NYC Composer said:


> This thread is aging like a fine whine.


It's still aging, but now it's being ignored in favor of newer whine threads.

Best,

Geoff


----------



## jcrosby

For me many 8Dio products have been disappointments. Ironically a few of my favorite string shorts and runs patches are 8Dio, but the other stuff has been really hit or miss, some being an outright disappointment...


----------



## KallumS

jcrosby said:


> For me many 8Dio products have been disappointments. Ironically a few of my favorite string shorts and runs patches are 8Dio, but the other stuff has been really hit or miss, some being an outright disappointment...



I've learned to only buy percussion and choirs from 8dio.


----------



## I like music

KallumS said:


> I've learned to only buy percussion and choirs from 8dio.



I think 8dio knows this too, which is why they have 13,000 choir products :D


----------



## AndyP

Ironically, I like most of 8Dio (mainly strings, brass, choir).
But the Blendinstruments don't fit me and my way of working at all.


----------



## DivingInSpace

jcrosby said:


> For me many 8Dio products have been disappointments. Ironically a few of my favorite string shorts and runs patches are 8Dio, but the other stuff has been really hit or miss, some being an outright disappointment...


I am pretty happy with most of my 8Dio products, especially at the price i paid. Century Brass is great, i love the epic percussion series, the harps seem pretty good, Lacrimosa is great and that one Hybrid Tool Library i have is okay for the price though not as versatile as i hoped when i bought it. I was very disappointed with the Laura solo vocals though, and those guitars i got for free with a purchase Christmas 2018 isn't anything special either.
I haven't figured out if i am totally in love with the Anthology Strings and kinda wish i had waited for the century strings to go on sale, but on the other hand i got the epic percussion for free when i bought them, which are worth the price i paid alone.


----------



## jcrosby

DivingInSpace said:


> I am pretty happy with most of my 8Dio products, especially at the price i paid. Century Brass is great, i love the epic percussion series, the harps seem pretty good, Lacrimosa is great and that one Hybrid Tool Library i have is okay for the price though not as versatile as i hoped when i bought it. I was very disappointed with the Laura solo vocals though, and those guitars i got for free with a purchase Christmas 2018 isn't anything special either.
> I haven't figured out if i am totally in love with the Anthology Strings and kinda wish i had waited for the century strings to go on sale, but on the other hand i got the epic percussion for free when i bought them, which are worth the price i paid alone.


It's the non-organic stuff which I've found pretty consistently disappointing... Things like symphonic/synthetic shadows, blend instruments, hybrid series stuff, etc. (Also not cheap when not on sale, a few of which I ate the full cost of before they did never ending fire sales. Lesson learned.)

Like I said though, a few of my favorite string shorts/runs are 8dio, and agree their choirs are pretty solid and their percussion's pretty good too... The "trending" designed/synthetic stuff though has pretty much consistently been regretful in some way or another..


----------



## shapednoise

germancomponist said:


> https://www.sound-ideas.com/Product/415/The-Original-Fart-Sound-Effects-Library


Its he Only Libray i use


----------



## Nemoy

I dont like Phobos as well. Also in agreement that many 8dio libraries are subpar as they tend to cut corners.


----------



## BradHoyt

Greg said:


> I was hoping the sound sources would be more elaborate and interesting. Lots of the same sound recorded and edited in not so interesting ways makes this a bust for me. I went through every single sound to pick out stuff I heard potential in to edit further but found only a few things. Just a big disappointment for me, in the context of my work (trailer music and dark film soundtracks.) I wouldn't call it a bad library or bad value for money though.


You mentioned "dark soundtracks"... I'm wondering if you're considering Mysteria.


----------



## Loïc D

shapednoise said:


> Its he Only Libray i use


129 USD for 2 CDs. The price alone gives me bellyache...


----------



## Technostica

My most disappointing library purchase was an Enid Blyton adventure as I had forgotten that I had already read it. 
Only 5p but that would get you a lot of gobstoppers in those days.


----------



## ism

Technostica said:


> My most disappointing library purchase was an Enid Blyton adventure as I had forgotten that I had already read it.
> Only 5p but that would get you a lot of gobstoppers in those days.


Which one?


----------



## Technostica

Henson Christian’s Amazing Adventure on an Epic Journey to find the lost Messerschmitt of Ben Nevis.
It was available only as an audio book and came on a series of 2,052 flexi discs.
I recall it having a very warm sound and as it was surround sound it was a pain to sync up all the gramophones.
I’d sit in the middle of the library of the west wing of the holiday home and get the servants to crank up the gramophones.
After many failed attempts and beatings they’d finally get it right and I’d be able to listen to in quadraphonic with lashings of cream.


----------



## Greg

BradHoyt said:


> You mentioned "dark soundtracks"... I'm wondering if you're considering Mysteria.



Absolutely! I love the demos and it seems like a pretty unique offering that other devs haven't tackled directly. Seems lovely for creepy psychological horror trailers. I just had a big placement on a cue that used creepy vocals :D


----------



## easyrider

N


----------



## brenneisen

easyrider said:


> N



did you get the last update?

it's much more playable now and they finally fixed the releases


----------



## BradHoyt

Funkybot said:


> For me it's Cinesamples Abbey Road Classic Upright Pianos. There's probably no sample library I want more than these particular pianos (Mrs. Mills and Challen anyway) sampled well, but this isn't it. Problems with the library include:
> 
> 1. Pianos are out of tune (I understand you don't want these perfectly in tune as the chorusing is part of the effect, but center frequencies are off)
> 
> 2. Inconsistent sample start times. They kept some of the action noise at the start of each note, but the duration of the noise (pre-note) wildly varies from note to note so it just sounds sloppy and feel terrible to play. My guess? They didn't feel like editing each sample manually, so just loaded the recordings into a batch job, set a single volume threshold, then pressed the "Batch Process" button to automatically trim the samples and left it at that.
> 
> 3. The biggest sin? The TERRIBLE velocity mapping and sample selection. These were just poorly sampled from the get-go by someone at Abbey Road (Cinesamples support confirmed that they did not make the samples), and Cinesamples put absolutely minimal effort into selecting good samples and mapping them for smooth playback. Every single key has the same number of velocity layers, that are distributed at the exact same velocities, indicating to me that the pianos were just put into some batch mapping program. So not only do you regularly trigger what's a poor sounding sample, they didn't do anything to smooth out the response.
> 
> It doesn't have any of the piano-specific features you'd expect to see in a $200 library either.
> 
> What does it do well? The pianos are THE exact piano sounds you hear on everything from The Beatles, and Zombies to Elliott Smith, which you just can't get from other libraries. And they offer a few microphone positions. But overall, I would not repurchase it. Wish someone who could do pianos well could work with Abbey Road to make a much better version of these instruments.



So Cinesamples Abbey Road Classic Upright Pianos is being discontinued and is on a $69 fire sale. I'm wondering if you (or anyone reading this post) believes it's a good deal at the price given what's mentioned above. Cheers... 



Cinesamples


----------



## Fleer

BradHoyt said:


> So Cinesamples Abbey Road Classic Upright Pianos is being discontinued and is on a $69 fire sale. I'm wondering if you (or anyone reading this post) believes it's a good deal at the price given what's mentioned above. Cheers...
> 
> 
> 
> Cinesamples


Thank you for this. Was going to buy but not anymore now.


----------



## BradHoyt

Fleer said:


> Thank you for this. Was going to buy but not anymore now.


I wonder if there are any other owners of this library out there... It's interesting that there are practically no reviews of the product on youtube...


----------



## Fleer

I did find a similar experience discussed here, with a reaction from CineSamples:








Cinesamples Abbey Road Classic Upright Pianos’ Released - Gearspace.com


Abbey Road and Cinesamples are proud to present a new piano library for Kontakt (Player), ‘Abbey Road Classic Upright Pianos’. Recorded in Studio Two a



www.gearslutz.com


----------



## Peter Satera

I picked up Duende Sounds after a suggestion and seeing it advertised on sale. I was hoping it would give some original sound design, like a more experimental AVA instinct. However, most of it consists of premade loops that are all at 120bpm, and only layerable with themselves. The sound design is like a tag on and isnt anything special, quite limiting. Avoid imo.


----------



## Michael Antrum

If you are looking for some good uprights, especially honky tonic and tack pianos, I've always liked the Ivory II upright collection. Always allow me to channel my inner Jerry Lee.....


----------



## brynolf

Peter Satera said:


> I picked up Duende Sounds after a suggestion and seeing it advertised on sale. I was hoping it would give some original sound design, like a more experimental AVA instinct. However, most of it consists of premade loops that are all at 120bpm, and only layerable with themselves. The sound design is like a tag on and isnt anything special, quite limiting. Avoid imo.


Same with most of Audiomodern's stuff. Cool sounding but totally useless "construction kits"


----------



## CGR

BradHoyt said:


> I wonder if there are any other owners of this library out there... It's interesting that there are practically no reviews of the product on youtube...


I have the Cinesamples Abbey Roads pianos. I first experienced playing the Abbey Roads Challen upright on a recording session. The producer had tried a few different sampled pianos and we all decided this had the best tone for the track. I didn't have any problems putting down my part with it using my Yamaha CP4 stage piano, although we had to do some MIDI timing correction, due to the slight latency and variation - not a big deal though.

I ended up buying it on sale last year, and am happy I did. They sound very authentic and raw, and the different mic positions give a big variation in ambience and image so I most times don't need to reach for extra reverb to give them depth. They do play like old pianos and in my opinion that's OK. If you can adapt your playing to them (just like with a real acoustic piano) and play to their strengths the results and authenticity of tone & character can be hard to match with any other sample piano I have.


----------



## CGR

Here's the studio recording I mentioned above:


----------



## Fleer

Okay CGR, you got me back on track


----------



## CGR

Fleer said:


> Okay CGR, you got me back on track


Ha! I should be on a commission!


----------



## Fleer

CGR said:


> Ha! I should be on a commission!


You should, ‘cause I caved. 
Thanks CGR, just got them in and already like them for their unique character.


----------



## BradHoyt

CGR said:


> I have the Cinesamples Abbey Roads pianos. I first experienced playing the Abbey Roads Challen upright on a recording session. The producer had tried a few different sampled pianos and we all decided this had the best tone for the track. I didn't have any problems putting down my part with it using my Yamaha CP4 stage piano, although we had to do some MIDI timing correction, due to the slight latency and variation - not a big deal though.
> 
> I ended up buying it on sale last year, and am happy I did. They sound very authentic and raw, and the different mic positions give a big variation in ambience and image so I most times don't need to reach for extra reverb to give them depth. They do play like old pianos and in my opinion that's OK. If you can adapt your playing to them (just like with a real acoustic piano) and play to their strengths the results and authenticity of tone & character can be hard to match with any other sample piano I have.


Thanks man...  I've played piano since I was... 2? Anyway, I totally get what you're saying. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I may get it since it'll be discontinued soon, and I like the sound of those uprights....


----------



## BradHoyt

CGR said:


> I have the Cinesamples Abbey Roads pianos. I first experienced playing the Abbey Roads Challen upright on a recording session. The producer had tried a few different sampled pianos and we all decided this had the best tone for the track. I didn't have any problems putting down my part with it using my Yamaha CP4 stage piano, although we had to do some MIDI timing correction, due to the slight latency and variation - not a big deal though.
> 
> I ended up buying it on sale last year, and am happy I did. They sound very authentic and raw, and the different mic positions give a big variation in ambience and image so I most times don't need to reach for extra reverb to give them depth. They do play like old pianos and in my opinion that's OK. If you can adapt your playing to them (just like with a real acoustic piano) and play to their strengths the results and authenticity of tone & character can be hard to match with any other sample piano I have.


Thanks man...  I've played piano since I was... 2? Anyway, I totally get what you're saying. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I just decided to get the deal before it's gone forever... Glad I did... The main Challen piano is solid and Mrs Mills works on the mid-high end. The lower notes on Mrs Mills are a little off, but it's an ancient upright and not entirely unexpected. The Challen alone is worth this 'exit' price. First experiment was to draw a soft velocity curve on the Challen Tack... I'll try taking out some pedal noise later, but pretty interesting sound of the low velocity levels at the high end.


----------



## CGR

BradHoyt said:


> Thanks man...  I've played piano since I was... 2? Anyway, I totally get what you're saying. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I just decided to get the deal before it's gone forever... Glad I did... The main Challen piano is solid and Mrs Mills works on the mid-high end. The lower notes on Mrs Mills are a little off, but it's an ancient upright and not entirely unexpected. The Challen alone is worth this 'exit' price. First experiment was to draw a soft velocity curve on the Challen Tack... I'll try taking out some pedal noise later, but pretty interesting sound of the low velocity levels at the high end.


Nice one Brad. Glad you're happy with the purchase. That demo sounds great - like a hybrid piano & dulcimer. I agree that the Challen alone is well worth the purchase price.


----------



## Peter Satera

brynolf said:


> Same with most of Audiomodern's stuff. Cool sounding but totally useless "construction kits"



Yeah? Thanks for the heads up. These construction kits are really restricting, it's like someone has a few tracks and then sold the group stems.


----------



## Spectator

HZ Strings.


----------



## Zero&One

Spectator said:


> HZ Strings.


😲


----------



## Rob

just today got the VSL nylon, great disappointment... was expecting a nice warm tone, I was wrong. Nasal, small, inexpressive even with the vibrato patch, inconsistent pan. Actually that sounds like an lfo vibrato (not saying that it is). Well, too bad... the Kontakt stock nylon sounds much much better.
little example, alternating the two: guess which one is Vsl?


----------



## VladK

Rob said:


> just today got the VSL nylon, great disappointment... was expecting a nice warm tone, I was wrong. Nasal, small, inexpressive even with the vibrato patch, inconsistent pan. Actually that sounds like an lfo vibrato (not saying that it is). Well, too bad... the Kontakt stock nylon sounds much much better.
> little example, alternating the two: guess which one is Vsl?



I feel your pain.
But this might be not the VSL fault, they do not mention the guitar they used. Classical guitar community knows how differently guitars may sound. Personally, I hate guitars made by Smallman, they sound terrible, even and nasal tone, exactly what your complain is about. But thanks to John Williams (guitarist, not composer) Smallman guitars became very popular and are among the most expensive guitars built by modern lutiers.

I would love if sample library producers always mentioned the instrument (make, year, condition), venue, and microphones used for recording. But they might not have permission of instrument makers to disclose the instrument, or are not willing to pay them a fee.


----------



## Michael Antrum

Rob said:


> just today got the VSL nylon, great disappointment... was expecting a nice warm tone, I was wrong. Nasal, small, inexpressive even with the vibrato patch, inconsistent pan. Actually that sounds like an lfo vibrato (not saying that it is). Well, too bad... the Kontakt stock nylon sounds much much better.
> little example, alternating the two: guess which one is Vsl?



VSL allow returns......


----------



## Rob

Michael Antrum said:


> VSL allow returns......


thanks Michael, sent a request already, let's see if they allow me a refund or credit towards a different library...


----------



## AndyP

*BBCSO*.

I don't feel like going back to that library. Too many problems, always something else that doesn't work... 

Man, I regret buying this library.


----------



## Ben

@Rob @VladK The guitare is a custom build master instrument. 
Have you tried to use the different mixer presets provided? Also you can change the sound characteristics of most instruments by adding a little bit of compression and or saturation.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Hans Zimmer Piano and Spitfire Chamber Strings

HZPiano has always been a bit dodgy with playability, I've struggled endlessly to get the right tone with the mics, but it can be quite heavy on RAM when using multiple mics. Noire has replaced it completely for me and it's just a £200 odd spend that I'd love to be able to sell as a license transfer because it's of no use to me anymore.

Spitfire Chamber Strings is kind of my own fault because it was the first string library I purchased, before I knew what sound I was looking for, and I saw so many recommendations and good things about it I thought I'd go for it. The small ensemble tone doesn't suit me, I prefer a much larger symphonic tone, like SSS, or even a medium like CSS. The longs and shorts are nice in SCS but I find legato is severely lacking. I also upgraded to the pro version hoping extra mics and mixes would make me enjoy the library and it's tone a bit more, but it's still just collecting dust and being used to layer every now and then for longs and shorts. Wish I could swap SCS for SSS...


----------



## Rob

Ben said:


> @Rob @VladK The guitare is a custom build master instrument.
> Have you tried to use the different mixer presets provided? Also you can change the sound characteristics of most instruments by adding a little bit of compression and or saturation.


Ben thank you, mine is the VI version, so no mixer presets, although I don't think I'd like the tone anyway... if they let me convert that to the upright bass (same price) I'm happy


----------



## VladK

Ben said:


> @Rob @VladK The guitare is a custom build master instrument.
> Have you tried to use the different mixer presets provided? Also you can change the sound characteristics of most instruments by adding a little bit of compression and or saturation.



@Ben, You might be prohibited from disclosing the luthier name, but what about design and materials?
Soundoboard and back materials, bracing, etc.
What is its soundoard design? Lattice braced carbon fiber double top, nomex double top, traditional fan braced top?
What strings were used?
And what year it was built?
Thanks.


----------



## Ben

I really don't know more then the product page says. This was before my time at VSL.
@Rob The sales team will come back to you, shouldn't be a problem.
But if you are looking for a classical guitar, I would recommend to think about getting the SYNCHRON-ized version:


----------



## Geomir

AndyP said:


> *BBCSO*.
> 
> I don't feel like going back to that library. Too many problems, always something else that doesn't work...
> 
> Man, I regret buying this library.


So you are giving it away for free? Is that true?


----------



## Vik

pawelmorytko said:


> Spitfire Chamber Strings is kind of my own fault because it was the first string library I purchased, before I knew what sound I was looking for, and I saw so many recommendations and good things about it I thought I'd go for it. The small ensemble tone doesn't suit me, I prefer a much larger symphonic tone, like SSS, or even a medium like CSS. The longs and shorts are nice in SCS but I find legato is severely lacking. I also upgraded to the pro version hoping extra mics and mixes would make me enjoy the library and it's tone a bit more, but it's still just collecting dust and being used to layer every now and then for longs and shorts. Wish I could swap SCS for SSS...


When I bought SCS and at the same time upgraded Mural to SSS, I felt that the clearly best of these libraries was SCS. The sections are small; 5 V1s sound really good, but sections of 3 players won't sound 'large' unless you layer them with something, but that's doable from within SCS. One can layer articulations within one SCS instance (normal sustains + con sords, for instance), one can layer several SCS instances, layer SCS with something else - and so on. If you layer three long notes in SCS, you get 9 players instead of 3 for all the instruments except the V1s, with those you'll get 12.


----------



## pawelmorytko

Vik said:


> When I bought SCS and at the same time upgraded Mural to SSS, I felt that the clearly best of these libraries was SCS. The sections are small; 5 V1s sound really good, but sections of 3 players won't sound 'large' unless you layer them with something, but that's doable from within SCS. One can layer articulations within one SCS instance (normal sustains + con sords, for instance), one can layer several SCS instances, layer SCS with something else - and so on. If you layer three long notes in SCS, you get 9 players instead of 3 for all the instruments except the V1s, with those you'll get 12.


Yeah I've had some luck layering SCS with CSS and Albion One longs, but not so much with SCS on its own, which just has a very brittle, harsh and bright quality to it. Stacking the instances of SCS just doesn't seem to have the same effect and sound as SSS, which is simply just gorgeous.


----------



## Vik

From a hifi point of view SSS sounds great - I was even disappointed, at first, when I bought Berlin Strings due to the shortcomings in Mural. But after I knew both libraries better, I ended up using BS a lot and SSS mainly for the special longs (true con sords, flautando, sul tasto etc). 

I doubt that most SCS users will agree that SCS has a 'very brittle'/'harsh' quality to it, but of course that doesn't matter (for you) if you think it sounds that way!  If I should point to one single library that ended up being disappointing in spite of great sounding demos and walkthroughs, it's probably Mural - but things got a lot better when they updated Mural to SSS. SSS is very good at what it does, and the the legatos have improved since Mural, but I often end up with too much vibrato with SSS (no crossfade), and the swells in the samples can be a blessing or a curse, all depending on what I want to do. 

Mural has also become a semi-old library, and there are other libs from Spitfire and others which IMO sounds better than SSS today. I still recommend it wholeheartedly to this who look for exactly what SSS does, especially if they don't plan to use it as a their only library - both SCS, Berlin Strings, CSS (and some of the instruments in the Afflatus/Soaring Strings/PS Con Moto and felt like an upgrade from Mural/SSS to me (if not listening from a hi-fi point of view, but from a playability-in-many-different-tempi and and expressivity point of view). SF BBC also sounds, in many ways, more impressive to me (or: sounds closer to what I look for in string libraries than SSS), but I have yet to hear something from BBC demos which convince me that the legatos sounds as good as they do in the IMHO best legatos in the VI world.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I have SSS now!


----------



## Brian Nowak

Always interesting to see what people dislike. 

I literally bought SCS because of how it sounds. Not in spite of it. I also think SSS sounds great at what it does and will probably add it to the arsenal at some point. 

Granted, I'm a programmer, not a performer. 90% of what I write is programmed in. So it matters very little to me how performance oriented a library is. All that matters to me is how engaging I can make it sound. 

I actually have to go back and say that the more I dug into Cinebrass, the more I appreciated it. I still wish it did some things more easily, but I'm slowly becoming a power user and it's paying off.

At this point the only regret purchase I have is Heavyocity Master Sessions. It has its place but the overall sound of most of the instruments are a huge turnoff for me. Probably the least used of any library I'll ever own.


----------



## Ivan M.

NI/Soundiron Symphony series woodwind solo... Hate it. Ensemble too. Just working on something, at this moment, and getting extremelly frustrated and remembered this thread. Had to get it out. Got the libs with a good discount, but still bad money to value ratio, if you ask me. I don't know, maybe that's how libs generally are these days, but still I've heard better.


----------



## BradHoyt

pawelmorytko said:


> Hans Zimmer Piano and Spitfire Chamber Strings
> 
> HZPiano has always been a bit dodgy with playability, I've struggled endlessly to get the right tone with the mics, but it can be quite heavy on RAM when using multiple mics. Noire has replaced it completely for me and it's just a £200 odd spend that I'd love to be able to sell as a license transfer because it's of no use to me anymore.
> 
> Spitfire Chamber Strings is kind of my own fault because it was the first string library I purchased, before I knew what sound I was looking for, and I saw so many recommendations and good things about it I thought I'd go for it. The small ensemble tone doesn't suit me, I prefer a much larger symphonic tone, like SSS, or even a medium like CSS. The longs and shorts are nice in SCS but I find legato is severely lacking. I also upgraded to the pro version hoping extra mics and mixes would make me enjoy the library and it's tone a bit more, but it's still just collecting dust and being used to layer every now and then for longs and shorts. Wish I could swap SCS for SSS...



Totally get where you're coming from with HZ Piano... Playability is not optimal... and the worst sin of all - The MICROSCOPIC velocity curve that you can ONLY control by drawing it manually with the mouse cursor (The 4-5 preset curves do not help when fine tuning the velocity curve). Rant over. lol I've been happy with Embertone's Walker as of late...


----------



## pawelmorytko

BradHoyt said:


> Totally get where you're coming from with HZ Piano... Playability is not optimal... and the worst sin of all - The MICROSCOPIC velocity curve that you can ONLY control by drawing it manually with the mouse cursor (The 4-5 preset curves are do not help when fine tuning the velocity curve). Rant over. lol I've been happy with Embertone's Walker as of late...


Honestly, I can't believe the massive price tag and insanely huge sample size, yet tiny Noire on a sale at 60 quid is the best piano I've ever played/owned....


----------



## Tim_Wells

Probably my own fault, but at the moment I'm too happy with my recent purchase of Hollywood Strings Gold. 

I guess I like more of a pristine - clean-smooth-emotional string sound (whatever that means). HS has more of a chorused-phasey sound to my ears.

Maybe it will grow on me. I haven't actually used in a mix yet. And I'm sure I'll find some uses for layered in.


----------



## Heledir

Bought Komplete Ultimate a little over 2 years ago. A complete waste of €600. Having Kontakt is good of course. But other than that the only things I actually use are the pianos and a couple of the effects. All of which are also included in Komplete (non-*UlTimAte*). That would've saved me €600. Pretty much the biggest waste of money I've ever committed.

And I can't even say, all snarky, that I haven't bought a Native Instrument library since because I already have to whole bloody lot of them now.


----------



## Quasar

I regret EVERYTHING I have ever purchased that has an activation protocol that depends in any way on a remote server, and does not allow for 100% local control over when and where I choose to install it. I used to be ok with offline challenge/response, but since this requires that one trust the developer to hold up their end by both maintaining their servers and honoring their agreements, it is no longer acceptable.

I will never, ever again consider purchasing a piece of software unless it offers 100% local control via a key file or simple license number that can be activated offline. If I could do it all over again I would use the money I've spent on sample libraries to buy the best hardware workstation money can buy. The library/VI approach, obviously, offers much more in terms of sonic possibilities, options and flexibility, but coprorofascist control-freak copy protection bullshit has utterly ruined what would otherwise be a wonderful thing.


----------



## Ashermusic

Not sampled, but modeled, Samplemodeling Brass. Some have produced really nice music with it, but I hated working with those instruments and sold them.


----------



## peladio

Spitfire Phobos, BBC orchestra and Auddict Hexeract and many 8dio libraries too..waste of money for me..


----------



## MjS

Spitfire Epic Brass. Thought the string version was ok (especially for the price) but the brass version has a couple of notes that are way out of tune in the decay. I have been in toch with support and although very friendly, there isn’t a fix (so that’s 4 months since reporting it). I get that it’s a very cheap taster, but to me it reflects poorly on the brand. If you compare that to say Audio Imperia Nucleus Lite, then Nucleus definitely has the upper hand there especially with the brass.


----------



## Michel Simons

peladio said:


> Spitfire Phobos, BBC orchestra and Auddict Hexeract and many 8dio libraries too..waste of money for me..



What didn't you like about Phobos?


----------



## GNP

8Dio Agitato Legato Arpeggio.

The arpeggios I tried with it sounded so fake, no matter how hard I tried to program it.

I got sooo Agitatoed myself, and Arpeggioed the whole library off my f*ckin harddrive. Utter waste of cash!


----------



## peladio

Michel Simons said:


> What didn't you like about Phobos?



It's not intuitive, seems like a beta project..sounds are just not that inspiring and usable and they seem to have abandoned it..similar to Hexeract which is equally underwhelming..


----------



## Michel Simons

peladio said:


> It's not intuitive, seems like a beta project..sounds are just not that inspiring and usable and they seem to have abandoned it..similar to Hexeract which is equally underwhelming..



Thanks for the info. It has been on my wishlist for ages, but comments like these have kept me from buying it. In theory it should be my cup of tea, but I guess I have read too many critical comments.


----------



## jtnyc

MjS said:


> Spitfire Epic Brass. Thought the string version was ok (especially for the price) but the brass version has a couple of notes that are way out of tune in the decay. I have been in toch with support and although very friendly, there isn’t a fix (so that’s 4 months since reporting it). I get that it’s a very cheap taster, but to me it reflects poorly on the brand. If you compare that to say Audio Imperia Nucleus Lite, then Nucleus definitely has the upper hand there especially with the brass.


That brass has had tuning issues since it was released many years ago in Albion 1 (legacy). That library went through many updates over the years with no fix, so it's no surprise to me that it's still an issue.


----------



## Chornobyl

EWQL Pianos and Hollywood Strings


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Chornobyl said:


> EWQL Pianos and Hollywood Strings


What is it you don't like about them?


----------



## FinGael

easyrider said:


> N


A looong time ago I made a decision to like all N -related posts I will encounter, but now I can't, and am screwed. Thanks a lot...


----------



## jazzman7

NeonMediaKJT said:


> The cheaper libraries that I've bought in an attempt to get that 'budget alternative' have usually been the ones that disappointed me the most. I've started telling myself to just save for the better libraries since you do pay for what you get, I guess.


Exactly!


----------



## Casiquire

NeonMediaKJT said:


> The cheaper libraries that I've bought in an attempt to get that 'budget alternative' have usually been the ones that disappointed me the most. I've started telling myself to just save for the better libraries since you do pay for what you get, I guess.


Can we just put this as a sticky right on the front page?! You can see in this thread that some people hate the most popular libraries and some people love the least popular ones, but the one piece of buying advice that seems near universal is this one right here


----------



## lettucehat

With the caveat that the most expensive ones are definitely not always the best. But yes there will be disappointment with a sub-300 string library (CSS on sale) unless it was Hollywood back during the fire sale.


----------



## SyMTiK

lettucehat said:


> With the caveat that the most expensive ones are definitely not always the best. But yes there will be disappointment with a sub-300 string library (CSS on sale) unless it was Hollywood back during the fire sale.


You found CSS disappointing?


----------



## lettucehat

SyMTiK said:


> You found CSS disappointing?



No! I’m saying that’s the threshold where you start getting comprehensive, not-disappointing libraries! And it’s possibly the best one, depending on what you need.


----------



## CT

Casiquire said:


> Can we just put this as a sticky right on the front page?! You can see in this thread that some people hate the most popular libraries and some people love the least popular ones, but the one piece of buying advice that seems near universal is this one right here


Yes. There are some more expensive things I'd like to have money back for, but I mostly actually regret the cheap silly stuff I thought I could get away with using instead of the real deal.


----------



## SyMTiK

lettucehat said:


> No! I’m saying that’s the threshold where you start getting comprehensive, not-disappointing libraries! And it’s possibly the best one, depending on what you need.


ahh gotcha! definitely agree with you, I think CSS is the one exception of libraries in that price range that is truly a top notch library. Anything cheaper tends to not have enough detail to really be that useful to me imo.


----------



## lettucehat

SyMTiK said:


> ahh gotcha! definitely agree with you, I think CSS is the one exception of libraries in that price range that is truly a top notch library. Anything cheaper tends to not have enough detail to really be that useful to me imo.


Or something major is missing/unfixable. CSS really turned things upside down with that price point. I think of Anthology and how it's mostly great (especially at $88 these days) but the shorts are weird sounding and stand out whenever you hear them compared to other libraries. Areia Lite is pretty incredible though, it just doesn't pretend to be comprehensive.


----------



## Chornobyl

Jeremy Spencer said:


> What is it you don't like about them?


EWQL Strings have very boxy tone. Yamaha Piano from their Pianos library has some kind of phaseyness or distortion


----------



## Mike Fox

pawelmorytko said:


> Honestly, I can't believe the massive price tag


It’s all about the brand name.


----------



## Tralen

Rob said:


> thanks Michael, sent a request already, let's see if they allow me a refund or credit towards a different library...


I was very underwhelmed by the VSL concert guitar, years and years ago, but the customer service was perfect. They offered to refund or replace with another library, if I remember. In the end, I got the Bari Sax.


----------



## Rob

Tralen said:


> I was very underwhelmed by the VSL concert guitar, years and years ago, but the customer service was perfect. They offered to refund or replace with another library, if I remember. In the end, I got the Bari Sax.


That's right, they were very friendly to me too, allowed me to get the double bass instead


----------



## Markrs

I think VSL are one of the more clued up sample companies around, with excellent on-forum support from @Ben and 14 day refund policy. They know a happy customer is a repeat customer.


----------



## Eptesicus

Markrs said:


> I think VSL are one of the more clued up sample companies around, with excellent on-forum support from @Ben and 14 day refund policy. They know a happy customer is a repeat customer.



Not from my experience unfortunately.


----------



## ControlCentral

Michel Simons said:


> Thanks for the info. It has been on my wishlist for ages, but comments like these have kept me from buying it. In theory it should be my cup of tea, but I guess I have read too many critical comments.


Same. Every time I'm tempted [to buy Phobos] I come back to Vi-C and read this thread.


----------



## Daniel James

Genuinely I was horribly disappointed with the Abbey Road library. Which I bought alongside everyone else. For someone like me who already has a lot of libraries, it just has no place. Such a wasted opportunity for something special in that room. But the articulations were just too basic and it all felt early 2000's midi. I bought for the brand name alone expecting it to live up to the name. It just didn't. Also been hearing that other developers have tried to record in those rooms but are brickwalled, due to 'loyalty' which I really don't like!

I'm also not a fan of the nickel and diming for extra instruments when it didn't feel like I got my money's worth from the base library.

-DJ


----------



## FireGS

Daniel James said:


> Genuinely I was horribly disappointed with the Abbey Road library. Which I bought alongside everyone else. For someone like me who already has a lot of libraries, it just has no place. Such a wasted opportunity for something special in that room. But the articulations were just too basic and it all felt early 2000's midi. I bought for the brand name alone expecting it to live up to the name. It just didn't. Also been hearing that other developers have tried to record in those rooms but are brickwalled, due to 'loyalty' which I really don't like!
> 
> I'm also not a fan of the nickel and diming for extra instruments when the base library didn't feel like I got my money's worth from the base library.
> 
> -DJ


Same sentiments, but I didn't buy. I get that they're doing more articulations later on, and maybe that will be different - but it feels like a super beginners type of library, maybe a sketching library at best -- and then what's the use of using such a room with such players for an incomplete, sketching library?


----------



## muziksculp

Daniel James said:


> But the articulations were just too basic and it all felt early 2000's midi


Yup. The sound of AR-1 is wonderful, but it's a very limited/basic library as is, the expansions are not very flexible either, and very limited.

I wish they just went ahead with developing the AR-1 Modular Orchestra, and skipped AR-1 Foundations, and expansions. I see it as a Waste of time, and effort.


----------



## JohnG

I think AR-1 is one of the best libraries I own.


----------



## purple

Daniel James said:


> Genuinely I was horribly disappointed with the Abbey Road library. Which I bought alongside everyone else. For someone like me who already has a lot of libraries, it just has no place. Such a wasted opportunity for something special in that room. But the articulations were just too basic and it all felt early 2000's midi. I bought for the brand name alone expecting it to live up to the name. It just didn't. Also been hearing that other developers have tried to record in those rooms but are brickwalled, due to 'loyalty' which I really don't like!
> 
> I'm also not a fan of the nickel and diming for extra instruments when it didn't feel like I got my money's worth from the base library.
> 
> -DJ


Yeah I agree. Totally a waste of the space IMO. A well programmed brass library in that hall could have been the last one I'd ever buy! Instead we have yet another "sketching library" in terms of features... Very frustrating. If OT or the cinematic studio series people or performance samples or whoever else had access to that room they'd be putting their all into it. I know spitfire is capable of better. Unfortunately "better" isn't necessarily the most profitable thing in this industry.


----------



## Jdiggity1

I guess the rumors were true then. Some people genuinely were surprised when "Abbey Road One: *Orchestral Foundations*" turned out to be a basic and/or sketching library.


----------



## Guffy

muziksculp said:


> Yup. The sound of AR-1 is wonderful, but it's a very limited/basic library as is, the expansions are not very flexible either, and very limited.
> 
> I wish they just went ahead with developing the AR-1 Modular Orchestra, and skipped AR-1 Foundations, and expansions. I see it as a Waste of time, and effort.


We don't know if something 'more complete' is in the works. That stuff takes time, and probably isn't easy considering COVID and everything.


----------



## CT

I just wish they would do a proper modular orchestra but I've heard nothing about this, so I believe they intend to stick with a limited beginner package and devote the bulk of their Abbey Road time to a new cinematic beatboxing library.


----------



## Guffy

Mike T said:


> I just wish they would do a proper modular orchestra but I've heard nothing about this, so I believe they intend to stick with a limited beginner package and devote the bulk of their Abbey Road time to a new cinematic beatboxing library.


This is the only logical explanation.


----------



## bvaughn0402

The thing about AR that has always disappointed me is all the add-ons. I just don't want to keep "completing the collection". I would rather spend money to get the full collection. Similar how I didn't really like the Big Bang series from VSL (although I did buy a few of them). 

My biggest disappointment so far has been GetGoodDrums, surprisingly. I need to spend more time with it as I'm sure it is my own doing ... they just sound ... tiny and not big to me. I get better sounds out of Toontrack, Slate, and even Logic drums.

Also, I really hate when drum samples decide to do yet another unique drum mapping. Why not just stick with general midi mapping, or let Toontrack set the standard?


----------



## ism

Yep, this apple is a truly a terrible orange.


----------



## Trash Panda

bvaughn0402 said:


> The thing about AR that has always disappointed me is all the add-ons. I just don't want to keep "completing the collection". I would rather spend money to get the full collection. Similar how I didn't really like the Big Bang series from VSL (although I did buy a few of them).
> 
> My biggest disappointment so far has been GetGoodDrums, surprisingly. I need to spend more time with it as I'm sure it is my own doing ... they just sound ... tiny and not big to me. I get better sounds out of Toontrack, Slate, and even Logic drums.
> 
> Also, I really hate when drum samples decide to do yet another unique drum mapping. Why not just stick with general midi mapping, or let Toontrack set the standard?


I was really surprised at Modern and Massive’s processed snapshots being so weak sounding compared Addictive Drums. Especially after just how good Cabzilla sounded.


----------



## Jacob Fanto

Mike T said:


> I just wish they would do a proper modular orchestra but I've heard nothing about this, so I believe they intend to stick with a limited beginner package and devote the bulk of their Abbey Road time to a new cinematic beatboxing library.


Spitfire have already confirmed they are doing a complete modular AR Orchestra in the future... SSO in Abbey Road essentially. My guess is a 2022 release date. Until then, we'll be getting little nuggets from the scoring selections to compliment AROOF, and if you don't want to invest into it now, you can just hold off until the big guns are rolled out! Really don't see the big deal... sampling takes time and effort and this upcoming orchestra is probably going to be their biggest debut yet. Which means it'll be $$$. For those who are beginners/don't want to spend that kind of money/want the AR sound right now, their current expanding lineup is perfect.


----------



## VSriHarsha

I never liked AR1 but like they said it’s exactly what they said it is. Well, it’s just not my taste but I respect for what it is. Who know? It could be like the future version of Miroslav, only with damn good sound of the hall it was recorded. You have to buy that for the sound you get, not for the articulations they offer. And in that way, yes, it serves the purpose.


----------



## DrSgtShock

Trash Panda said:


> I was really surprised at Modern and Massive’s processed snapshots being so weak sounding compared Addictive Drums. Especially after just how good Cabzilla sounded.


As a ggd user I agree. I hate how none of their libraries have a tom sound with some actual tone and sustain in them. I think it’s really just the genres they’re building for. Metal core/djent has always favored drier drum sounds. Everything is high attack and gets out of the way really quick (except the snare, which ducks the entire mix but always has a metric ton of processing anyways).


----------



## jbuhler

JohnG said:


> I think AR-1 is one of the best libraries I own.


I'm with you. I find it great for sketching, but unlike almost all the other libraries I've used for sketching, I find myself often not replacing AROOF. And it takes well to supplementation.


----------



## Karma

Mike T said:


> I just wish they would do a proper modular orchestra but I've heard nothing about this, so I believe they intend to stick with a limited beginner package and devote the bulk of their Abbey Road time to a new cinematic beatboxing library.


Uh oh. Who have you been talking to?


----------



## dcoscina

Just to be a contrarian one of the most u expected delights that I use a ton is Arkhis. From NI. I love that library!!! Using it a ton in a project at the moment and it’s terrific. Well worth the money tho I did get it on sale last Christmas


----------



## dzilizzi

dcoscina said:


> Just to be a contrarian one of the most u expected delights that I use a ton is Arkhis. From NI. I love that library!!! Using it a ton in a project at the moment and it’s terrific. Well worth the money tho I did get it on sale last Christmas


Well, technically it is OT and NI based on the Arks which were done very well. 

The biggest problem with the Symphony series isn't the individual libraries but that they don't go together. They are supposed to be an orchestra but they were recorded by 3 different companies in three different rooms using three different orchestras. And no help at making them get along. It is why BBCSO works, even though there are problems with the player, etc... One orchestra used to playing together in the same room they usually play in. It just works.


----------



## dcoscina

dzilizzi said:


> Well, technically it is OT and NI based on the Arks which were done very well.


Actually it's based on Time Macro and Micro libraries.


----------



## Mike Fox

While I think AR1 sounds pretty damn good, I also don’t understand the logic behind recording a “foundations” library in such an iconic space. It’s like buying a Lamborghini just so you can drive it around the block, lol!

The only thing I can think of is that SA wants to milk it for as long as they possibly can, and what better way to do that than to release a basic library at first, then perpetually release small expansions.

Its kind of a brilliant marketing strategy, tbh. So could we really expect anything less from the kings of sample library marketing?

But yeah, seems like somewhat of a wasted opportunity.


----------



## VSriHarsha

dzilizzi said:


> Well, technically it is OT and NI based on the Arks which were done very well.
> 
> The biggest problem with the Symphony series isn't the individual libraries but that they don't go together. They are supposed to be an orchestra but they were recorded by 3 different companies in three different rooms using three different orchestras. And no help at making them get along. It is why BBCSO works, even though there are problems with the player, etc... One orchestra used to playing together in the same room they usually play in. It just works.


the Symphony series by NI, right?
I thought those libraries were done by Soundiron. Wow ! This is the 1st time I am hearing this. Thanks @dzilizzi !
Who else contributed?

Also, is it true the legatos are quite choppy?


----------



## emilio_n

dcoscina said:


> Actually it's based on Time Macro and Micro libraries.


Then... having Time Macro & Micro, Arkis didn't bring anything new to the table?


----------



## ism

Mike Fox said:


> While I think AR1 sounds pretty damn good, I also don’t understand the logic behind recording a “foundations” library in such an iconic space.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that SA wants to milk it for as long as they possibly can, and what better way to do that than to release a basic library at first, then perpetually release small expansions.
> 
> Its kind of a brilliant marketing strategy, tbh. So could we really expect anything less from the kings of sample library marketing?
> 
> But yeah, seems like somewhat of a wasted opportunity.



It seems to me that AR1 does exactly what it says on the tin. Which is the AR sound, with acute, perhaps unprecedented attention to the sound engineering. Which to my ears (and more importantly to many here much more professional than myself) is entirely virtuosic, and never before captured in samples. It exudes a certain musically like no other library ever has. Then there's the number of mics give great possibilities of sonority, and the 5 dynamic layer really make a different. Obviously the legato isn't game changing, but the sonority in wholly new. Which is what it says on the tin.

I understand that this isn't everyone's sound. Or that if you're after an Audio Imperia-esque hyper crunchy ffff, for instance, then the groundbreaking depths of nuance in the sonority might be little more that diminishing returns that you might not want to pay for. Or that some people simply cannot live without legato. Or that people might be impatient for the full multi-year project to be out (and on sale) *now*.


But in that it's advertises as "foundation" library, and that it also does *exactly* what it says on the tin, to buy it, and then be disappointed to discover that, indeed, it does *exactly* what it says on the tin ... is a little puzzling. And also at how exactly the Spitfire Brand can be accused here of somehow promising something other that *exactly* what it said on the tin. 


I mean, I guess I could say that what I really want from SF is deeply sampled virtuosic clarinets at the moment. So I was a bit disappointed that AR1 isn't a virtuosic clarinet library. And I similarly guess I could say that I'm always a bit disappointed that Audio Imperia libraries somehow never sound quite enough like Fluffy Audio libraries for my taste. 

But this unhelpfully conflates a legitimate sense of a disappointing vision or execution of a library with a sense of very personal disappointment that this library isn’t something else.

Both are legitimate experiences of disappointment (I mean, I *really* wanted AR1 to be clarinets, something along the lines of the OT wind soloists). But it's unhelpful to conflate this a personal with a critical sense of disappointment.


----------



## Toecutter

VSriHarsha said:


> Who else contributed?


Percussion, Sonuscore
Strings, Audiobro
Brass & Winds, Soundiron


----------



## Mike Fox

ism said:


> It seems to me that AR1 does exactly what it says on the tin. Which is the AR sound, with acute, perhaps unprecedented attention to the sound engineering. Which to my ears (and more importantly to many here much more professional than myself) is entirely virtuosic, and never before captured in samples. It exudes a certain musically like no other library ever has. Then there's the number of mics give great possibilities of sonority, and the 5 dynamic layer really make a different. Obviously the legato isn't game changing, but the sonority in wholly new. Which is what it says on the tin.
> 
> I understand that this isn't everyone's sound. Or that if you're after an Audio Imperia-esque hyper crunchy ffff, for instance, then the groundbreaking depths of nuance in the sonority might be little more that diminishing returns that you might not want to pay for. Or that some people simply cannot live without legato. Or that people might be impatient for the full multi-year project to be out (and on sale) *now*.
> 
> 
> But in that it's advertises as "foundation" library, and that it also does *exactly* what it says on the tin, to buy it, and then be disappointed to discover that, indeed, it does *exactly* what it says on the tin ... is a little puzzling. And also at how exactly the Spitfire Brand can be accused here of somehow promising something other that *exactly* what it said on the tin.
> 
> 
> I mean I guess I could say that what I really want from SF is deeply sampled virtuosic clarinets at the moment. So I was a bit disappointed that AR1 isn't a virtuosic clarinet library. And I'm guess I could say that I'm always a bit disappointed that Audio Imperia libraries somehow never sound quite enough like Fluffy Audio libraries for my taste. But this unhelpfully conflates a legitimate sense of a disappointing vision or execution of a library with a sense of very personal disappointment that this library.
> 
> Both are legitimate experiences of disappointment (I mean, I *really* wanted AR1 to be clarinets, something along the lines of the OT wind soloists). But it's unhelpful to conflate these a personal with a critical sense of disappointment.


My point isn’t that the library is misrepresented somehow. Yes, it has the AR sound, and yes it says “foundations” right on the title. I couldn’t expect anything different, so that’s not where the disappoint i may have for AR1 stems from.

But my point is that having access to a world renowned recording space only to record some basic articulations seems like a missed opportunity. Why not record something just as spectacular as the room itself, as opposed to some basic articulations that most people already have covered in countless other libraries?


----------



## dzilizzi

dcoscina said:


> Actually it's based on Time Macro and Micro libraries.


Well, those were even better. At leas Time Micro. First library I bought on just a trailer.


----------



## Jacob Fanto

Mike Fox said:


> My point isn’t that the library is misrepresented somehow. Yes, it has the AR sound, and yes it says “foundations” right on the title. I couldn’t expect anything different, so that’s not where any disappoint i may have for AR1 stems from.
> 
> But my point is that having access to a world renowned recording space only to record some basic articulations seems like a missed opportunity. Why not record something just as spectacular as the room itself, as opposed to some basic articulations that most people already have covered in countless other libraries?


They are, it takes time, and I think COVID-19 has made it an even tougher process thus far. Just have patience! The full modular orchestra they've confirmed will be like an even better SSO in Abbey Road.


----------



## dzilizzi

Mike Fox said:


> My point isn’t that the library is misrepresented somehow. Yes, it has the AR sound, and yes it says “foundations” right on the title. I couldn’t expect anything different, so that’s not where the disappoint i may have for AR1 stems from.
> 
> But my point is that having access to a world renowned recording space only to record some basic articulations seems like a missed opportunity. Why not record something just as spectacular as the room itself, as opposed to some basic articulations that most people already have covered in countless other libraries?


Are you serious? 

Multiple times its been stated there will be a modular orchestra along the lines of SSO with the regular separate sections and lots of articulations done at Abbey Road. Problem was they were in the middle of recording it when COVID hit. What I understood is all of the AR Foundations stuff was recorded but the modular stuff was just started. They still haven't been able to get back in to finish due to spacing requirements. Though now that people are getting vaccinated, it might be a lot easier.


----------



## Mike Fox

Jacob Fanto said:


> They are, it takes time, and I think COVID-19 has made it an even tougher process thus far. Just have patience! The full modular orchestra they've confirmed will be like an even better SSO in Abbey Road.


Fingers crossed.


----------



## Mike Fox

dzilizzi said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Multiple times its been stated there will be a modular orchestra along the lines of SSO with the regular separate sections and lots of articulations done at Abbey Road. Problem was they were in the middle of recording it when COVID hit. What I understood is all of the AR Foundations stuff was recorded but the modular stuff was just started. They still haven't been able to get back in to finish due to spacing requirements. Though now that people are getting vaccinated, it might be a lot easier.


Yeah, I’m serious, because I’d love to see something more comprehensive and profound recorded in AR. If it eventually happens, then cool. I’m all in! If not? Well, there’s a lot of other libraries out there that grab my attention.


----------



## FireGS

ism said:


> Which to my ears (and more importantly to many here much more professional than myself) is entirely virtuosic, and never before captured in samples.





ism said:


> what I really want from SF is deeply sampled virtuosic clarinets at the moment. So I was a bit disappointed that AR1 isn't a virtuosic clarinet library.





ism said:


> Obviously the legato isn't game changing


There is no legato, just in the three instrument expansions. We're talking about Orchestral Foundations.



ism said:


> But in that it's advertises as "foundation" library, and that it also does *exactly* what it says on the tin, to buy it, and then be disappointed to discover that, indeed, it does *exactly* what it says on the tin ... is a little puzzling.


I agree. Whoever bought it without realizing what it can or cannot do perhaps made a silly purchase decision. That's for sure why I didn't buy it. I guess some of us are just disappointed that the first offering is what some would consider a neutered library. We were hoping for a BBCSO Pro-level library, but got a slightly larger BBCSO Discovery... with a shit ton of mics.

((Slight aside, if this is a "sketch" library, why on earth do you need 10 mic choices?))


----------



## dzilizzi

Mike Fox said:


> Yeah, I’m serious, because I’d love to see something more comprehensive and profound recorded in AR. If it eventually happens, then cool. I’m all in! If not? Well, there’s a lot of other libraries out there that grab my attention.


Yeah, sorry. I thought you knew and were joking about it. I did buy AR1 (presale to get the sparkling winds) but am really waiting for the modular orchestra. AR! will provide the ensemble patches for the modular, from what I understand - similar to how Albion One works with SSO. 

I also think they will do a bundle when all the parts of the foundations are out, so if you want it all, it might be worth waiting for. The bits and pieces are so those who only want something and not the other can get it. It is a nice idea.


----------



## Daniel James

ism said:


> It seems to me that AR1 does exactly what it says on the tin. Which is the AR sound, with acute, perhaps unprecedented attention to the sound engineering. Which to my ears (and more importantly to many here much more professional than myself) is entirely virtuosic, and never before captured in samples. It exudes a certain musically like no other library ever has. Then there's the number of mics give great possibilities of sonority, and the 5 dynamic layer really make a different. Obviously the legato isn't game changing, but the sonority in wholly new. Which is what it says on the tin.
> 
> I understand that this isn't everyone's sound. Or that if you're after an Audio Imperia-esque hyper crunchy ffff, for instance, then the groundbreaking depths of nuance in the sonority might be little more that diminishing returns that you might not want to pay for. Or that some people simply cannot live without legato. Or that people might be impatient for the full multi-year project to be out (and on sale) *now*.
> 
> 
> But in that it's advertises as "foundation" library, and that it also does *exactly* what it says on the tin, to buy it, and then be disappointed to discover that, indeed, it does *exactly* what it says on the tin ... is a little puzzling. And also at how exactly the Spitfire Brand can be accused here of somehow promising something other that *exactly* what it said on the tin.
> 
> 
> I mean, I guess I could say that what I really want from SF is deeply sampled virtuosic clarinets at the moment. So I was a bit disappointed that AR1 isn't a virtuosic clarinet library. And I similarly guess I could say that I'm always a bit disappointed that Audio Imperia libraries somehow never sound quite enough like Fluffy Audio libraries for my taste.
> 
> But this unhelpfully conflates a legitimate sense of a disappointing vision or execution of a library with a sense of very personal disappointment that this library isn’t something else.
> 
> Both are legitimate experiences of disappointment (I mean, I *really* wanted AR1 to be clarinets, something along the lines of the OT wind soloists). But it's unhelpful to conflate this a personal with a critical sense of disappointment.


I wanted a solid orchestral package recorded at Abbey Road. How silly of me to think the company that relentlessly releases full orchestral packages would do the same given that chance at Abbey Road.

Especially with marketing bullshit like this *"Abbey Road One is our most expressive library to date, with 69 articulations – more than any other Spitfire Audio ensemble library – and up to 5 dynamic layers." *

And it's not like they are leading with the fact its a cut down, basic early 2000s art set. You are making it seem as if at every opportunity they wanted to let you know this library is severely gutted so they can nickle and dime you later to give you the things you actually want. Like legato. They quite happily dance around that fact I think.

Also this is a thread about libraries that disappointed you. Why are you trying to tell people that their own subjective opinions are wrong? If you were not disappointed, just move on. This isn't a Spitfire (or any other company) defence thread. It's what disappointed you. Although this is not the first time you have emerged from nowhere to protect the honour of the 80+ employee company from the mean users opinions 😂

-DJ


----------



## dzilizzi

Daniel James said:


> I wanted a solid orchestral package recorded at Abbey Road. How silly of me to think the company that relentlessly releases full orchestral packages would do the same given that chance at Abbey Road.
> 
> Especially with marketing bullshit like this *"Abbey Road One is our most expressive library to date, with 69 articulations – more than any other Spitfire Audio ensemble library – and up to 5 dynamic layers." *
> 
> And it's not like they are leading with the fact its a cut down, basic early 2000s art set. You are making it seem as if at every opportunity they wanted to let you know this library is severely gutted so they can nickle and dime you later to give you the things you actually want. Like legato. They quite happily dance around that fact I think.
> 
> Also this is a thread about libraries that disappointed you. Why are you trying to tell people that their own subjective opinions are wrong? If you were not disappointed, just move on. This isn't a Spitfire (or any other company) defence thread. It's what disappointed you.
> 
> -DJ


It has just been delayed. They did the easy one first. Hopefully, now that vaccines are more widely available, they will finish the recording soon.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Daniel James said:


> Genuinely I was horribly disappointed with the Abbey Road library. Which I bought alongside everyone else. For someone like me who already has a lot of libraries, it just has no place. Such a wasted opportunity for something special in that room.


Are you getting any use from the AR1 perc or the shorts? Asking because I'm looking at picking it up this sale.


----------



## Soundbed

Not that anyone asked but the main reason I bought AROOF was to build a template.

It sounded so good, my thought was to add all my other libraries into a template with ARO1 and work out a nice “balance” ... to get the general sound of anything else I enjoyed to ‘play nicely’ within an ARO context, sonically.

Never really started that project. :D

Back to the main point of this thread — I think my biggest disappointment recently was actually CDT. I bought it almost instantly before realizing it was going to be more synthy and not, like... BDT expanded. I sort of wanted another BDT ... but CDT wasn’t it (for me). Oh well.


----------



## muziksculp

AR-1 Foundations Short String articulations sound wonderful  , I would say, they are the best, and most useful part of the library for me.

The Perc. sound good, but didn't impress me as much as the short string articulations. 

Some of the Brass is good as well. 

In general it's not a total waste of money, but I really feel this is not a pro-level library, but rather more of a sketching tool. I'm really looking forward to the real thing which is AR-1 Modular Orchestra, but that requires a long wait. (which I'm not a fan of)


----------



## NoamL

Daniel James said:


> Genuinely I was horribly disappointed with the Abbey Road library. Which I bought alongside everyone else. For someone like me who already has a lot of libraries, it just has no place. Such a wasted opportunity for something special in that room. But the articulations were just too basic and it all felt early 2000's midi. I bought for the brand name alone expecting it to live up to the name. It just didn't. Also been hearing that other developers have tried to record in those rooms but are brickwalled, due to 'loyalty' which I really don't like!
> 
> I'm also not a fan of the nickel and diming for extra instruments when it didn't feel like I got my money's worth from the base library.
> 
> -DJ



Made this fun little sketch a few days after getting AROOF. The writing is basic and the ending is abortive, but it shows that "early 2000s midi" is not really being fair.



In terms of actually *using it at work* I do all the time. The soft boom replaced Easter Island hits, I use the bass drums, toms and sus cymb a lot, the horns are excellent for what you get, the low brass are good for "huge brass ensemble" type stuff, the high and low strings are pretty decent for slow chordal writing if you turn up the releases. Only thing I don't really like is the spiccatos are not as short as they could be - I'm still using my CSS+HWS combo for really tight spiccatos.

Continually on this forum people bring up the idea of *sketching library* vs *mockup library* and that distinction just doesn't work for me. When you're doing a mockup and you have a foregrounded, legato melody with a wide dynamic range and numerous technical challenges like repeated notes, then of course you want a "mockup library." But if you have a bass drum hit, or a 4 horn chord with hairpins for 10 seconds, then a sketching library IS a mockup library.


----------



## NoamL

BTW regarding "sketching libraries" that turn out to be good "mockup libraries," there are loads of times when "sketch" Symphobia brass or strings stay in my final mockups... no doubt the library has severe limitations but if you don't test them, the sound is great.


----------



## EgM

dzilizzi said:


> I don't make money from my libraries, so in some ways, they are all disappointments.



So, so... sadly true! :D


----------



## Gauss

I've spent several hundred dollars on a "Sample Library" and since I value my money I will defend my position, that I've made a good purchase. I must defend my position, because if I made a bad purchase that would mean I've wasted my money. And if I wasted money that would mean that I'm stupid. And I'm not stupid!!!
You can extrapolate that mindset to anything: Hardware, Game Consoles, Cars...
And this attitude is a main cause why you have "wars" between "Product X" vs. "Product Y".

Also the other thing is that disappointment is a result of expectations and it's not about quality of a product.
If I expect "Product A" to be bad and it is, there there is no disappointment. If I expect "Product B" to be excellent and it is only average then I'm disappointed. And now even though "Product B" is much much better than "Product A" I feel more disappointment towards "Product B".


----------



## Nimrod7

Well, today is my second day with BBCSO Pro.
I haven't spend that much time to make my mind yet, but what I feel at present, is not even close to what I felt when I brought AR1, MSS, CSS or Berlin Woodwinds.

Yep, I watched YouTube walkthroughs, reviews, even read the manual before buying. 

Might just need to spend more time with it, and I certainly feel the mics can shape the sound in many different ways.

I will be able to talk more about it after I have at least written 2-3 tracks with it, and play a lot more with articulations and the mic mixes.


----------



## Frederick

I'm not disappointed in any of my purchases except for bad timing (having paid more than necessary with hindsight knowledge). The one that comes closest to a disappointment for me is AROOF.

I've spent over 8K on Spitfire products in one year, so one could say I'm a Spitfire fanboy. Great that it is deeply sampled (vertically). Great that it sounds fantastic. The problem with AROOF and the Selections is that I want the selections to fill the legato holes and the lack of rolls in the Foundations library, to make it a more complete library that can stand on its own. I want to be able to stick to this room with these recordings for at least 80% of all the instruments. Maybe add a few solo instruments... If the piece doesn't require too much control per section that could really give great results.

However it seems Spitfire is determined to use the selections for special purpose recordings. From my point of view I don't want to invest in yet another expensive Spitfirfe modular orchestra, because to my ears Abbey Road only sounds marginally better then SSO, but then again I do prefer the sound of AIR... So I need the Selections to fill the gaps to give me my more or less complete ensemble AR library...

Soaring Strings & Brass better means separate legato patches for both the brass and the strings... Otherwise I will end up only using the Abbey Road stuff for blending with other orchestras and that would be a missed opportunity...

The thought of having bought all the Selections when they're released and AROOF totaling something like 800 Euros and then to NOT have an ensemble orchestra that can stand on its own... Brrr.

So many of us didn't want to buy AROOF at first -- unless we would know more about the selections. So they've told us about the planned legato for the low strings and the legato for the high woodwinds. I was reassured. But now I'm more and more thinking they are going to give us BHCT type of selections. Although they may be great by themselves and are justified in their existence, I think many people will be disappointed that the holes in AROOF were not filled. Regardless of the upcoming modular orchestra. A modular orchestra even if I was going to buy it, doesn't mean I don't want legato on my ensemble patches...


----------



## Paul Cardon

Definitely the Auddict Master Solo Woodwinds bundle. My wind libraries at the time didn't support fast passages in any good way, so the idea of a nice and zippy little legato in the Master Solo Woodwinds was really appealing, but the more I tried to use it, the more I failed and failed and failed to get it sounding anything but synthy. Not just in the programming of the legatos, but in the sound. Something really odd and sterile and tonally "wrong" about that whole set of instruments and I haven't used it once outside of the first couple of months I tried to get a handle on it. Not at all suited for solo applications, maybe usable in a dense mix, but I've got much better options nowadays.


----------



## Paul Cardon

Also, Sonokinetic's phrase-based libraries are such an incredible mixed bag, huge highs and huge lows.

I bought Largo and Indie in the same purchase. Indie is incredible, super inspiring, great pulses and underscore material, some really unique stuff, have found some really cool uses for it over time.

Largo? Not once have I been able to find a good use for it. It's not that it's got terrible content or anything, but most of it is very... lyrical/melodic maybe? It's all very slow (in the name, I know) And the loopiness of it is instantly apparent. Add to that the very limited chord recognition and a clunky workflow that Indie and later SK libraries massively improved, I just can't ever find a reason to use it. The sounds and passages aren't particularly interesting either, and since it's all slow-moving parts, I know I can go to one of my favorite playable libraries and get similar results in way less time than I'd be futzing around with the chord system in Largo.


----------



## kgdrum

Regarding Spitfire Abbey Road:
As a longtime library consumer one rule I've learned over the years and I occasionally have to remind myself to try to adhere to :
*NEVER BUY ANY LIBRARY FROM ANY DEVELOPER THATS AN UNFINISHED WORK IN PROGRESS!*
Even with the promise of enhancements and upgrades at a later point in time, I always try to make my decisions on the library as it is at the time of purchase.
Things happen,managerial /developer issues develop,plans change,companies have internal issues, lack of resources etc............
The sound of AROOF is wonderful but until there's a complete Abbey Road Orch release (by my standards) I will not consider this as a possible purchase.
After seeing too many libraries get released with promises of how it will develop in the future and stall or never come to fruition I will not buy any library from any developer anymore unless I like the library as it is *NOW*.

A case in point : I love Bohemium SERIES (Cello and Violin) from Viharmonic,I bought in early because it looked promising and sounded really nice..............
*But a large part of the purchase was trusting the plan and timeline Virharmonic pitched.*

Several years later the Bohemium Series is still not finished, *NO Viola*,now the developer seems to be porting the release to a new platform........................
If I knew what I know now, as nice potentially as the Bohemium Series was hopefully going to be would i buy this now as is?
Probably not,for me I try to buy what's in front of me now.

I love the sound and tone of Abbey Road if at some point Spitfire releases a complete version I will be all over it but until then...................


----------



## dzilizzi

Toecutter said:


> Non-commercial threads exist for a reason. Don't stop, being censored for not liking a sample library and voicing your opinion, no matter how you put it, is the worst thing that can happen to this forum. When we lose our freedom to talk about a particular developer's work or library, something is definitely wrong. I like AR1 A LOT but people jumping on you because of that "early 2000s midi" remark in a thread about disappointments is absurd to me! Who cares, samples don't have feelings and developers who are smart enough will always find something constructive in the harshest opinions.


I actually like to know the "why" a library is disappointing, because sometimes one person's disappointment is the exact reason I might buy a library. We won't count the "sounds awful," especially if multiple people say the same thing. But maybe, "not the sound I am looking for" "too soft" "too loud" "legato doesn't flow" "too many bongos!" "not enough cowbells!" are useful comments?


----------



## AEF

#1 MSS
#2 Aeria
#3 Dimension Strings


----------



## Casiquire

AEF said:


> #1 MSS
> #2 Aeria
> #3 Dimension Strings


Curious, is your criticism of MSS related to the legato (which is about to get another update, i think they released it too early) or something more like the tone or expression? 

I kind of understand where it comes to DS though. It takes tons of effort and fiddling


----------



## Chris Harper

dzilizzi said:


> I actually like to know the "why" a library is disappointing, because sometimes one person's disappointment is the exact reason I might buy a library. We won't count the "sounds awful," especially if multiple people say the same thing. But maybe, "not the sound I am looking for" "too soft" "too loud" "legato doesn't flow" "too many bongos!" "not enough cowbells!" are useful comments?



I was extremely disappointed with TBDEC (THE Bruce Dickinson Extreme Cowbell). I wasn’t disappointed with the number of cowbells. There are more cowbells than I will ever use, and an impressive number of articulations. They just didn’t sound nearly as loud and epic as I expected.


----------



## AEF

Casiquire said:


> Curious, is your criticism of MSS related to the legato (which is about to get another update, i think they released it too early) or something more like the tone or expression?
> 
> I kind of understand where it comes to DS though. It takes tons of effort and fiddling


name an aspect of the library, and i hate it lol. its the single worst library i have ever owned.


----------



## william81723

AEF said:


> its the single worst library i have ever owned.


My though exactly.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

AEF said:


> name an aspect of the library, and i hate it lol. its the single worst library i have ever owned.


See, this is one of those opportunities to share more details because AudioBro is definitely on this forum and paying attention to user feedback. In fact, they have a pretty beefy update coming out this week that will automatically shift each articulation appropriately so you can hard quantize notes to the grid if you want to (something not only unique and innovative, but extremely handy). That came out of user feedback.


----------



## AEF

ALittleNightMusic said:


> See, this is one of those opportunities to share more details because AudioBro is definitely on this forum and paying attention to user feedback. In fact, they have a pretty beefy update coming out this week that will automatically shift each articulation appropriately so you can hard quantize notes to the grid if you want to (something not only unique and innovative, but extremely handy). That came out of user feedback.


i have, ad nauseum, listed my complaints. im not a fan of paying $500 for a library that needs endless updates to be functional, let alone inspiring or fun.

the interface, the sound, the room, the legato, the shorts, the CPU usage, the envelopes, the mics. all terrible. are they going to redo the library? cuz thats what it would take


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

AEF said:


> i have, ad nauseum, listed my complaints. im not a fan of paying $500 for a library that needs endless updates to be functional, let alone inspiring or fun.
> 
> the interface, the sound, the room, the legato, the shorts, the CPU usage, the envelopes, the mics. all terrible. are they going to redo the library? cuz thats what it would take


Sounds like a bad fit for you in the end. We've all had those purchase mistakes, despite our best intentions and hopes.


----------



## dzilizzi

Chris Harper said:


> I was extremely disappointed with TBDEC (THE Bruce Dickinson Extreme Cowbell). I wasn’t disappointed with the number of cowbells. There are more cowbells than I will ever use, and an impressive number of articulations. They just didn’t sound nearly as loud and epic as I expected.


See, this is important to know. I had that library on my list and was just waiting for their next "Every Ten Year's" sale. I missed the one last year. Now I know I may need to maybe buy a different library.


----------



## LauraC

...in other news. After waiting for the Spitfire sale, I *finally* got BBSCO Core only to discover - I may never use it. The timing is so. freakin. bad. on the shorts, that instead of inspiring me to write, I want to hit something. I posted this in the Spitfire sale thread and a couple of other people confirmed my observation. To say I'm disappointed is way understating it for a couple of reasons: 1) I am admittedly a Spitfire fangirl, 2) I am delighted with other libraries I've gotten from them, 3) As someone relatively new to the game of orchestral music - I need tools that make my education and skill building easier, not more frustrating. At least it was on sale. I'll keep working with it - but I refuse to fight wonky code.

Here are a few bars I wrote with the Spitfire, then I threw them onto CS2 to compare.


----------



## dunamisstudio

I regret buying as many plugins instead of sample libraries. But like someone mentioned earlier, timing I regret more. Should of got some on sale. Waited until Symphobia dropped in price. Skipped VSL VI stuff and stay with Synchron.


----------



## dzilizzi

LauraC said:


> ...in other news. After waiting for the Spitfire sale, I *finally* got BBSCO Core only to discover - I may never use it. The timing is so. freakin. bad. on the shorts, that instead of inspiring me to write, I want to hit something. I posted this in the Spitfire sale thread and a couple of other people confirmed my observation. To say I'm disappointed is way understating it for a couple of reasons: 1) I am admittedly a Spitfire fangirl, 2) I am delighted with other libraries I've gotten from them, 3) As someone relatively new to the game of orchestral music - I need tools that make my education and skill building easier, not more frustrating. At least it was on sale. I'll keep working with it - but I refuse to fight wonky code.
> 
> Here are a few bars I wrote with the Spitfire, then I threw them onto CS2 to compare.



Doesn't CS2 have a long delay? I'm only asking because it may have something to do with how awful that sounded. I'm not a CS2 owner, so I don't know.


----------



## Toecutter

LauraC said:


> ...in other news. After waiting for the Spitfire sale, I *finally* got BBSCO Core only to discover - I may never use it. The timing is so. freakin. bad. on the shorts, that instead of inspiring me to write, I want to hit something. I posted this in the Spitfire sale thread and a couple of other people confirmed my observation. To say I'm disappointed is way understating it for a couple of reasons: 1) I am admittedly a Spitfire fangirl, 2) I am delighted with other libraries I've gotten from them, 3) As someone relatively new to the game of orchestral music - I need tools that make my education and skill building easier, not more frustrating. At least it was on sale. I'll keep working with it - but I refuse to fight wonky code.
> 
> Here are a few bars I wrote with the Spitfire, then I threw them onto CS2 to compare.



Yea the timing is very off but I think if you use a negative delay of -70 it will fix or at least improve it? You can also just drag the midi part a bit to the left until it feels "right". I also find the tightness knob very useful to make the shorts... tighter XD

Here's a spreadsheet of negative track delay values https://vi-control.net/community/threads/negative-track-delay-database-spreadsheet.105332/


----------



## Tralen

Chris Harper said:


> I was extremely disappointed with TBDEC (THE Bruce Dickinson Extreme Cowbell). I wasn’t disappointed with the number of cowbells. There are more cowbells than I will ever use, and an impressive number of articulations. They just didn’t sound nearly as loud and epic as I expected.


You need TBDEC Pro, for the multiple cowbell microphones.


----------



## Mike Fox

dzilizzi said:


> Doesn't CS2 have a long delay?


 Nope. CS2 is pretty responsive.


----------



## Casiquire

dzilizzi said:


> Doesn't CS2 have a long delay? I'm only asking because it may have something to do with how awful that sounded. I'm not a CS2 owner, so I don't know.


CS2 does not, but CSS has a long and mighty inconsistent and tricky delay. However i like the library enough that it doesn't end up in this thread, for me at least.


----------



## LauraC

dzilizzi said:


> Doesn't CS2 have a long delay? I'm only asking because it may have something to do with how awful that sounded. I'm not a CS2 owner, so I don't know.


Not as long as Core~ 

I mean this was completely raw - I didn't do anything to try to pretty it up.


----------



## Trash Panda

@LauraC I’ve been holding this in for some time now, but I just can’t any longer.

PHRASING!


----------



## CT

LauraC said:


> ...in other news. After waiting for the Spitfire sale, I *finally* got BBSCO Core only to discover - I may never use it. The timing is so. freakin. bad. on the shorts, that instead of inspiring me to write, I want to hit something. I posted this in the Spitfire sale thread and a couple of other people confirmed my observation. To say I'm disappointed is way understating it for a couple of reasons: 1) I am admittedly a Spitfire fangirl, 2) I am delighted with other libraries I've gotten from them, 3) As someone relatively new to the game of orchestral music - I need tools that make my education and skill building easier, not more frustrating. At least it was on sale. I'll keep working with it - but I refuse to fight wonky code.
> 
> Here are a few bars I wrote with the Spitfire, then I threw them onto CS2 to compare.



Are you sure there isn't something else weird going on here, particularly with the longs? Here's both the spiccato and staccato (wasn't sure which you used) playing the same stuff with the legato, quantized at your tempo, with click for reference. I didn't even drag the legato back to compensate for any built-in lag, it's quantized too. I also tried it with fixed short velocities in case it was a problem between dynamics, but that didn't screw it up. Tightness is turned totally down on the shorts as well....

View attachment thing.mp3


----------



## turnerofwheels

LauraC said:


> ...in other news. After waiting for the Spitfire sale, I *finally* got BBSCO Core only to discover - I may never use it. The timing is so. freakin. bad. on the shorts, that instead of inspiring me to write, I want to hit something. I posted this in the Spitfire sale thread and a couple of other people confirmed my observation. To say I'm disappointed is way understating it for a couple of reasons: 1) I am admittedly a Spitfire fangirl, 2) I am delighted with other libraries I've gotten from them, 3) As someone relatively new to the game of orchestral music - I need tools that make my education and skill building easier, not more frustrating. At least it was on sale. I'll keep working with it - but I refuse to fight wonky code.
> 
> Here are a few bars I wrote with the Spitfire, then I threw them onto CS2 to compare.



Is this a SF thing in general?

I can't say how much time I wasted with the spitfire symphonic strings shorts back in the day when trying to score some rhythmic work. We're not talking timing that is consistent enough to fix with a delay value, and tightness doesn't fix completely erratic timing when shorts just loosely spit out of Kontakt whenever they feel like it....

Fortunately I could get PS fluid shorts just for reliable rhythmic work. I do like the overall sound of SF strings (especially my SCS!), but that was a disappointment for sure


----------



## LauraC

Mike T said:


> Are you sure there isn't something else weird going on here, particularly with the longs? Here's both the spiccato and staccato (wasn't sure which you used) playing the same stuff with the legato, quantized at your tempo, with click for reference. I didn't even drag the legato back to compensate for any built-in lag, it's quantized too. Tightness is turned totally down on the shorts as well....
> 
> View attachment thing.mp3


I don't know - but at least two other people confirmed it and repeated it. I quantized as well. You must have some mojo I don't posses~


----------



## CT

LauraC said:


> I don't know - but at least two other people confirmed it and repeated it. I quantized as well. You must have some mojo I don't posses~


The legatos are quantized as well? It doesn't look like it in the video and that's what I think is making the timing sound really weird, more than the short notes, because the CS2 example is off too. Did what I play with the legato match what you wrote?


----------



## LauraC

Mike T said:


> The legatos are quantized as well? It doesn't look like it in the video and that's what I think is making the timing sound really weird, more than the short notes, because the CS2 example is off too. Did what I play with the legato match what you wrote?


No, I hadn't quantized the longs - I just did and threw a 70ms delay on the shorts and it helps but this is the issue: the delays are not evenly distributed throughout the shorts. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be complaining. Offset, I can handle. One forum member found a particular issue with the Eb, for example.


----------



## LauraC

Trash Panda said:


> @LauraC I’ve been holding this in for some time now, but I just can’t any longer.
> 
> PHRASING!


Funny~ My first round in writing - all I worry about is the melody & harmonies.


----------



## CT

LauraC said:


> No, I hadn't quantized the longs - I just did and threw a 70ms delay on the shorts and it helps but this is the issue: the delays are not evenly distributed throughout the shorts. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be complaining. Offset, I can handle. One forum member found a particular issue with the Eb, for example.


Try it without negative delaying the shorts. Did mine sound ok? That's with the tightness all the way down and no delay compensation. It also looks like the piano part might not be quantized? I think if you're gonna lock one part to grid you have to go all in on something like this with multiple moving parts or it'll start to get weird.

I know it's not always the popular approach here but in general I'd avoid quantizing at all whenever possible....

Hmm you know what just to be safe... you are using the legato patches for the long parts right, not just the sustains?


----------



## LauraC

Mike T said:


> Try it without negative delaying the shorts. Did mine sound ok? That's with the tightness all the way down and no delay compensation. It also looks like the piano part might not be quantized? I think if you're gonna lock one part to grid you have to go all in on something like this with multiple moving parts or it'll start to get weird.
> 
> I know it's not always the popular approach here but in general I'd avoid quantizing at all whenever possible....


I never quantize the piano - it's my home instrument and I prefer not to, and haven't had an issue in other compositions using other libraries. 

I will keep messing with it - being that it is now residing on my computer. Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate it.


----------



## CT

LauraC said:


> I never quantize the piano - it's my home instrument and I prefer not to, and haven't had an issue in other compositions using other libraries.
> 
> I will keep messing with it - being that it is now residing on my computer. Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate it.


Just added one more thing in case you missed it... are you using the sustains or the actual legato patches for this part? Definitely needs to be the latter for an appropriately fluid melodic line, in most cases.

Keyboards are my home instrument as well, and I almost never quantize those parts, but I also almost never quantize any other parts, because having some stuff robotically timed and other stuff not is usually not a good mix in rhythmically-defined pieces.


----------



## LauraC

Toecutter said:


> Yea the timing is very off but I think if you use a negative delay of -70 it will fix or at least improve it? You can also just drag the midi part a bit to the left until it feels "right". I also find the tightness knob very useful to make the shorts... tighter XD
> 
> Here's a spreadsheet of negative track delay values https://vi-control.net/community/threads/negative-track-delay-database-spreadsheet.105332/


wow - that is so helpful! Thank you. I actually did wind up using -70 and it improved, but the kicker is that it's *not consistent across all the samples* which means I will doing some stretch marker yoga when I bounce to audio.


----------



## Trash Panda

LauraC said:


> Funny~ My first round in writing - all I worry about is the melody & harmonies.


I wasn’t referring to the music...


----------



## VSriHarsha

Toecutter said:


> Percussion, Sonuscore
> Strings, Audiobro
> Brass & Winds, Soundiron


Wow! I always knew the Strings were done by a Dev whose starts with A & I thought it was Aria Sound & it is AudioBro. I think the Strings must be good?

I also hope the Percussion is good coz done by Sonuscore. Now, Soundiron’s not that good in sampling Orchestral instruments, I think. Now this the Symphony series. Imagine the Essentials! I think these are pretty ear horrifying lol!


----------



## Tralen

VSriHarsha said:


> Wow! I always knew the Strings were done by a Dev whose starts with A & I thought it was Aria Sound & it is AudioBro. I think the Strings must be good?
> 
> I also hope the Percussion is good coz done by Sonuscore. Now, Soundiron’s not that good in sampling Orchestral instruments, I think. Now this the Symphony series. Imagine the Essentials! I think these are pretty ear horrifying lol!


I love the percussion, never tried the rest. The percussion essentials have just a reduced number of instruments, but have the same samples and articulations.


----------



## cygnusdei

LauraC said:


> this is the issue: the delays are not evenly distributed throughout the shorts. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be complaining.


But miss, that's how _real_ orchestras play. We're giving you the advantage of ultra realistic playing.


----------



## doctoremmet

The mythos that the NI Symphony Series instruments sound THAT HORRENDOUSLY BAD is being inflated to ridiculous levels by this forum 

Proceed haha. Also: remember to have fun, check that we’re only talking about a bunch of recorded sounds and keep on smiling


----------



## dzilizzi

doctoremmet said:


> The mythos that the NI Symphony Series instruments sound THAT HORRENDOUSLY BAD is being inflated to ridiculous levels by this forum
> 
> Proceed haha


All I said is they don't match. Individually, they sound good.


----------



## Crowe

doctoremmet said:


> The mythos that the NI Symphony Series instruments sound THAT HORRENDOUSLY BAD is being inflated to ridiculous levels by this forum



I think this is my issue with the series. I think they sound pretty great in a vacuum (insert-no-sound-in-vacuum-joke) but not that great together.

I've taken to using them in conjunction with Metropolis Ark. I'm not sure if this is working yet.


----------



## Markrs

doctoremmet said:


> The mythos that the NI Symphony Series instruments sound THAT HORRENDOUSLY BAD is being inflated to ridiculous levels by this forum
> 
> Proceed haha. Also: remember to have fun, check that we’re only talking about a bunch of recorded sounds and keep on smiling


I agree Temme, it is more limited than other libraries, but outside of VI-Control other people love them. They tend not to do Orchestral stuff, just use it in music production, which is a core market for NI.


----------



## el-bo

dzilizzi said:


> All I said is they don't match. Individually, they sound good.


I'm missing something, here. I don't own NISS, but I've read this opinion on a few occasions. Many composer's templates are made up of disparate libraries with various techniques used to try and unify them under one sound profile, and in the same space. What is it specifically about NISS that falls outside that workflow?


----------



## Crowe

el-bo said:


> I'm missing something, here. I don't own NISS, but I've read this opinion on a few occasions. Many composer's templates are made up of disparate libraries with various techniques used to try and unify them under one sound profile, and in the same space. What is it specifically about NISS that falls outside that workflow?



I can answer this: All of the NISS libraries are incredibly wet. The issue is that they have been recorded in different 'halls' and thus they are wet in different ways.

When you use many different libraries in a template, one would generally choose to use drier libraries which can be molded together, with maybe one 'character' library. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## doctoremmet

Shiirai said:


> I can answer this: All of the NISS libraries are incredibly wet. The issue is that they have been recorded in different 'halls' and thus they are wet in different ways.
> 
> When you use many different libraries in a template, one would generally choose to use drier libraries which can be molded together, with maybe one 'character' library. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Spot on. Very accurate summary indeed. But @el-bo did ask a valid question, and imho it is totally possible to blend the three. It may be the “extra” effort that is slightly offputting and that I feel is the root cause for the backlash. The out of the box sound of each of these libraries isn’t even half as bad a some on here would have you believe. But that is down to an echo chamber effect. The most nefarious thing the internet has brought us, is people who have never had any real life exposure on some matter or other still chime in with opinions that are rock solid, but ultimately “just an opinion, man”. Of course, that’s just, like, my opinion man.

As I have often said, I am merely a hobby musician with no real life exposure on any kind of actual composing for a living, so maybe I shouldn’t even be on here haha. At least people should never really take my experience too serious. Except maybe for fellow hobbyists. Wait. Did I just inadvertently create my own echo chamber?


----------



## mutex

LauraC said:


> ...in other news. After waiting for the Spitfire sale, I *finally* got BBSCO Core only to discover - I may never use it. The timing is so. freakin. bad. on the shorts, that instead of inspiring me to write, I want to hit something.


I'm so sorry to hear this. I feel your excitement and subsequent frustration. For the record, my biggest regret as a purchase in 2020 was the BBCSO Core, exactly because of this reason. It was my very first orchestral library. I opened a support ticket in June 2020. In December 2020 was the last time I asked for an update on that ticket. The ticket was put on hold and until this day the issues haven't been addressed. I eventually stopped asking and just moved on. After that and after watching some videos of Daniel James and Anne-Kathrin Dern ranting about Spitfire Audio products, I decided not to buy from Spitfire Audio again.

EDIT: I still found use for the BBCSO though. The longs are still very usable and do sound nice, and whenever I dare to use the shorts, I layer them beneath another library to give it that Spitfire Audio humanization


----------



## Banquet

I'm a bit of a Spitfire fanboy but my two least used libraries that I pretty much regret buying (they certainly wouldn't be in a list of stuff I would go out and re-buy any time soon if I were doing it again) are Earth and Ambient Guitars.

I bought them both in a sale at 40% off, which helps, but Earth I found to be a massive list of patches that I don't know what they will sound like and most of them bring nothing new at all if you already own some VST synths... particularly Omnisphere. Unlike Omnisphere there is no easy way to rate or star patches that I like. So even after going through dozens/hundreds and finding a few that I could use, there's nothing I can do to remember them apart from writing the patch names on a bit of paper.

So, after being disappointed with Earth, I then went and bought Ambient Guitars (clever me!), which I could see from the play through used the EDNA engine but I thought some of the patches sounded really nice and I wanted a guitar library. The actual sampled guitar section is ok but there's no bloody pitch blend (Spitfire enable pitch bend on a solo violin in SSS, but disable it on a guitar in Ambient Guitars!) and the EVO grid is mildly useful (despite lacking variety) but the other sections are full of hundreds of patches and are really just more EDNA blandness and even less way of knowing what you're going to get. Lots of patches don't even sound guitarish. The worst category is called 'inspiration'. There is nothing in there that inspires me and, more seriously, what a silly name for a category! How does that help me find a sound I want?

Since then I have bought Dystopian Guitars and Senfine, which together use half as much HD space and are chock full of inspiring and wonderful guitar sounds.

If I ever think about buying another EDNA related product from Spitfire, will someone please clonk me on the head! Actually, I went through the EDNA patches that came with Tundra and most of them are really good - and I had that (sort of for free) already!

So, sorry Spitfire, love your other stuff, but EDNA and Ambient Guitars and definitely marked as 'delete when space getting low'...


----------



## Jdiggity1

M0rdechai said:


> For a casual reader of this forum and hobbyist composer, this thread tells me a lot I need to know when buying sample libraries.
> 
> It tells me which products are 'over marketed' and what certain weak points are.
> So thank you all for your contributions.
> 
> 
> I do notice a trend in this, now quite long, thread.
> 
> conversation option A
> 
> composer X - "I don't like this library"
> everyone - "...ok"
> 
> conversation option B
> 
> composer X - "I don't like this library"
> composer Y - "I actually wanted to buy this. Can you elaborate?"
> /
> composer Z - "I love it. But it does have its quirks"
> 
> conversation option C
> 
> composer X - "I don't like this library _by Spitfire Audio_"
> composer Y - "Have you tried # / % / * ? This is the best library, you know.. maybe upgrade to the Pro version and it will totally fix it. You are just salty. I really don't get why people don't like it. Where does all the hate towards SA come from?"


"Noticing this trend"... in the last few pages? I've been dipping my eye into this thread pretty regularly from the beginning, and I'm finding it hard to believe you've read it all.

Here are some Spitfire libraries that have been mentioned as "worst purchases" without rebuttal: Phobos, Orbis, eDNA Earth, Albion ONE, HZ Strings, HZ Piano, Spitfire Chamber Strings, BBCSO....
In fact they've often resulted in a response much like your option B.

Here are some libraries that after being mentioned received responses akin to your option C:
LASS, Rhythmic textures, Sonokinetic libraries, Hollywood Strings, a number of 8dio libraries....

I think it's in everybody's interests if posts like yours, which appear to be written as a way of belittling the enemy (fanboys) were not bothered with. Especially when they kind of fall apart when mr moderator decides it's a good idea to re-read a 50-page thread to make a point. (and I'd do it again!)


----------



## el-bo

Shiirai said:


> I can answer this: All of the NISS libraries are incredibly wet. The issue is that they have been recorded in different 'halls' and thus they are wet in different ways.
> 
> When you use many different libraries in a template, one would generally choose to use drier libraries which can be molded together, with maybe one 'character' library. I think. Correct me if I'm wrong.


Thanks! Actually, now you mention it, I do remember there was talk of the wetness. But wouldn't that also be the case in blending AROOF and BBCSOC or Albion I? 

And no, I can't correct you. When it comes to this side of music-making, I'm definitely a noob. All I know is that I like the sound of the demos (Certain WW solo sounds, notwithstanding). I like the fact that the space seems pretty exaggerated, but without losing the clarity.

Either those demos don't sound so good (I'm possibly missing a ton of conflicting spacial cues), or blending them is actually possible.

Of course, I'm not arguing against users' preference for sound, features and nor am I suggesting that everyone should be bothered to go through whatever hassles it takes to get to mesh/play well.


----------



## el-bo

doctoremmet said:


> Spot on. Very accurate summary indeed. But @el-bo did ask a valid question, and imho it is totally possible to blend the three. It may be the “extra” effort that is slightly offputting and that I feel is the root cause for the backlash. The out of the box sound of each of these libraries isn’t even half as bad a some on here would have you believe. But that is down to an echo chamber effect. The most nefarious thing the internet has brought us, is people who have never had any real life exposure on some matter or other still chime in with opinions that are rock solid, but ultimately “just an opinion, man”. Of course, that’s just, like, my opinion man.
> 
> As I have often said, I am merely a hobby musician with no real life exposure on any kind of actual composing for a living, so maybe I shouldn’t even be on here haha. At least people should never really take my experience too serious. Except maybe for fellow hobbyists. Wait. Did I just inadvertently create my own echo chamber?


Like you say, perhaps it is too much work to deal with it as it comes...out of the box. But then that's surely the point of templates. Once it's all set up and balanced, most of the work is done, non? Oui? Si?

And however much of a hobbyist you believe yourself to be, just look over your shoulder...and I'll be there


----------



## Mike Fox

I couldn’t delete NI’s Symphonic Strings off my HD fast enough!


----------



## VSriHarsha

LauraC said:


> No, I hadn't quantized the longs - I just did and threw a 70ms delay on the shorts and it helps but this is the issue: the delays are not evenly distributed throughout the shorts. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be complaining. Offset, I can handle. One forum member found a particular issue with the Eb, for example.


Yea I heard the snippet posted & to me, it sucks. Lol! Sorry but yea, even the shorts in Nucleus, comparatively.


----------



## LauraC

Trash Panda said:


> I wasn’t referring to the music...


Whew - I was hoping that!


----------



## SupremeFist

FireGS said:


> He didn't say it sounded like early 2000's MIDI, he said the articulation set is similar to the articulations offered in the early 2000's. The point he was making was that back then it was thought of as "a lot", but simply doesn't cut it _today._


And this is simply true, viz the lack of timp rolls (!) and the three speeds of brass swells to pad out that section. Also, nowhere in the AROOF product page does it warn purchasers that this is "only a sketching library"; to the contrary, it claims that it contains "everything you need" (!!!) for that "Hollywood sound", which of course it doesn't.

Diaclaimer: I bought AROOF and really like it! But it's clear that the reason Spitfire inspires such strong negative emotions in some people is that their marketing copy is often total bullshit.


----------



## FireGS

SupremeFist said:


> And this is simply true, viz the lack of timp rolls (!) and the three speeds of brass swells to pad out that section. Also, nowhere in the AROOF product page does it warn purchasers that this is "only a sketching library"; to the contrary, it claims that it contains "everything you need" (!!!) for that "Hollywood sound", which of course it doesn't.
> 
> Diaclaimer: I bought AROOF and really like it! But it's clear that the reason Spitfire inspires such strong negative emotions in some people is that their marketing copy is often total bullshit.


Yep.

I could be wrong, but didn't the original EWQLSO Brass have swells? Maybe early Project SAM Brass, too?


----------



## el-bo

SupremeFist said:


> Diaclaimer: I bought AROOF and really like it! But it's clear that the reason Spitfire inspires such strong negative emotions in some people is that their marketing copy is often total bullshit.



I really just don't get it. When I watch Christian and Paul I get the feeling of them being quintessentially English/British. And given the Brits are known for understatement and shying away from the big. bold and brash, the whole marketing shtick seems just so out of character for them as a company. They clearly love what they are doing, and this is a great quality. But then they leave themselves open to so much disappointment due to the over-sell, hype etc.

At this point, they have a captive audience, so it's all just so unnecessary.


----------



## Mike Fox

FireGS said:


> Yep.
> 
> I could be wrong, but didn't the original EWQLSO Brass have swells? Maybe early Project SAM Brass, too?


Absolutely they did! The instruments and articulations for EWQLSO is possibly the most comprehensive to date. It was crazy ahead of its time, and i still use several patches from it.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

SupremeFist said:


> And this is simply true, viz the lack of timp rolls (!) and the three speeds of brass swells to pad out that section. Also, nowhere in the AROOF product page does it warn purchasers that this is "only a sketching library"; to the contrary, it claims that it contains "everything you need" (!!!) for that "Hollywood sound", which of course it doesn't.
> 
> Diaclaimer: I bought AROOF and really like it! But it's clear that the reason Spitfire inspires such strong negative emotions in some people is that their marketing copy is often total bullshit.


To be fair though, what defines a "sketching library"? To one person, it may mean ensemble patches. To another, those same patches may be totally fine for the final product (not just the sketch). Why does a developer need to define what the library should be used as? For a media composer that is working fast and likes ensemble patches because they are fast to work with, AROOF may not be a sketching library at all. To others that demand individual patches and legato, it may be - but Spitfire listed out which patches and articulations were included from the start. Those users should be able to understand what they need in a "full" library vs. what they need for sketching - rather than some marketing person telling them.

I think people will take things either too literally or not literally enough with marketing copy - which side you fall on seems to depend on how you feel about the product. BBCSO faced the same criticism - especially from those who didn't like it. The fact it was referred to as a "universal starting point" was interpreted as a 100% comprehensive be all end all 100 dynamic layers library or something similar. While those that do like it understand that it is a rather broad starting point given all of the instruments and articulations included but that doesn't mean it is going to be perfect for every application or genre of music. But why would marketing copy have to say "not quite universal starting point but certainly applicable to many scenarios" or something as literal? It's like BMW saying "the ultimate driving machine" - is it the ultimate? Probably not for tilling a farm. But nobody takes it literally.


----------



## jbuhler

Mike Fox said:


> My point isn’t that the library is misrepresented somehow. Yes, it has the AR sound, and yes it says “foundations” right on the title. I couldn’t expect anything different, so that’s not where the disappoint i may have for AR1 stems from.
> 
> But my point is that having access to a world renowned recording space only to record some basic articulations seems like a missed opportunity. Why not record something just as spectacular as the room itself, as opposed to some basic articulations that most people already have covered in countless other libraries?


AROOF has uses on its own as an ensemble library. For those who are getting the modular library, Foundations is also a way to start using the modular library in the AR space while the modules drip out (likely over a year or two, maybe longer). If you remember how BML worked with Albion One when BML was coming out, the concept is much the same.


----------



## Mike Fox

el-bo said:


> I really just don't get it. When I watch Christian and Paul I get the feeling of them being quintessentially English/British. And given the Brits are known for understatement and shying away from the big. bold and brash, the whole marketing shtick seems just so out of character for them as a company. They clearly love what they are doing, and this is a great quality. But then they leave themselves open to so much disappointment due to the over-sell, hype etc.
> 
> At this point, they have a captive audience, so it's all just so unnecessary.


As much as i love Spitfire’s Neo, saying that it’s “all you’re gonna need to take your scores into the next decade” is a prime example of how exaggerated Spitfire marketing can be. The library is really niche, and doesn’t even have percussion. How’s that supposed to be all i need? Lol!

Like you said, it’s completely unnecessary.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

SupremeFist said:


> And this is simply true, viz the lack of timp rolls (!) and the three speeds of brass swells to pad out that section. Also, nowhere in the AROOF product page does it warn purchasers that this is "only a sketching library"; to the contrary, it claims that it contains "everything you need" (!!!) for that "Hollywood sound", which of course it doesn't.
> 
> Diaclaimer: I bought AROOF and really like it! But it's clear that the reason Spitfire inspires such strong negative emotions in some people is that their marketing copy is often total bullshit.


As someone considering picking up AROOF during this sale, I'm reading the comments. It seems to me the concrete shortcomings boil down to 1) no legatos 2) no perc rolls. Got it. So I'm thinking I'd sketch with AROOF, then probably swap out the more exposed longs and much of the strings. I'm cool with mixing in my more detailed libraries where needed; it's how I work anyway.

Anything else I should know about? Like other shortcomings or things that make it hard to use other than legatos and perc rolls?

Thanks


----------



## jbuhler

doctoremmet said:


> I wasn’t referring to any one person’s opinion Lizzie  but for the record: I totally agree. Also for the record: they are not my favourite orchestral samples.


Yes, it's hard to find a library these days that is really bad, even if some of them make you want to pound your head against the wall. In some ways the fact that they are not really bad is a large part of the problem. It's harder to just give these difficult libraries up. Which is why my head is so sore...


----------



## Sarah Mancuso

The "sketching library" is a made-up idea that exists only in the minds of VI-Control users.


----------



## Robert_G

Are people here really trying to defend Abby Road One as a 'sketching' library? It seems to me that Spitfire Audio has more then a few libraries that get defended here as 'sketching' libraries in order to make up for the obvious shortcomings they have.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Sarah Mancuso said:


> "Sketching library" is a made-up idea that exists only in the minds of VI-Control users.


I have this notion of "sketch-n-keep". Like, stuff that's quick to work with and good enough that a decent chunk can stay. I think Afflatus is great for that, since the polyphonic legato is so fast to work with.

With AROOF, I'd imagine sketch would mean stuff is kind of mixed, blended, polished already so you get a limited but more cohesive sound out of the gate.

But yeah...you can turn off legato on most strings/brass/winds and make most stuff into a sketch library.


----------



## jbuhler

Land of Missing Parts said:


> As someone considering picking up AROOF during this sale, I'm reading the comments. It seems to me the concrete shortcomings boil down to 1) no legatos 2) no perc rolls. Got it. So I'm thinking I'd sketch with AROOF, then probably swap out the more exposed longs and much of the strings. I'm cool with mixing in my more detailed libraries where needed; it's how I work anyway.
> 
> Anything else I should know about? Like other shortcomings or things that make it hard to use other than legatos and perc rolls?
> 
> Thanks


The one other big thing that is missing is the low brass only goes to middle C, which is frequently inconvenient. You can substitute horns, but they really should have brought the low brass up to at least F above middle C.

The percussion mostly sounds very good, but it can be a bit of a pain to use because of the way the patches are laid out.

If you want any kind of detail, you also need to add individual woodwinds. 

I usually load up a set of legato strings along with AROOF strings. I load the HZ Perc Timp along with AROOFs. I load solo woodwinds, solo trumpet and horn, and harp. But when I use with this template AROOF serves to block in the sound.

The brass is in my main template, as is the low strings legato added library. I sometimes add the strings to my main template for layering.


----------



## jbuhler

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I have this notion of "sketch-n-keep". Like, stuff that's quick to work with and good enough that a decent chunk can stay. I think Afflatus is great for that, since the polyphonic legato is so fast to work with.
> 
> With AROOF, I'd imagine sketch would mean stuff is kind of mixed, blended, polished already so you get a limited but more cohesive sound out of the gate.
> 
> But yeah...you can turn off legato on most strings/brass/winds and make most stuff into a sketch library.


For me, sketching means you can write quickly with very few tracks and get in the ballpark of the sound you want. You then go back and add detail to that. Some libraries I use that way and the piece is basically done as a "sketch." Others have the sketching library completely replaced. (e.g., I frequently use the SCS ensemble library for sketching a passage and then break those out to the proper individual parts of SCS.) With AROOF so far, AROOF is very rarely completely replaced.


----------



## Alex Niedt

Sarah Mancuso said:


> The "sketching library" is a made-up idea that exists only in the minds of VI-Control users.


Not sure how seriously you say this, but Palette Symphonic Sketchpad, Orchestral Tools Berlin Orchestra Inspire 1 & 2, and Audio Imperia Nucleus are all examples of libraries marketed for sketching.


----------



## SupremeFist

Sarah Mancuso said:


> The "sketching library" is a made-up idea that exists only in the minds of VI-Control users.


Also to be fair in the minds of Cinesamples (that's what they call Cinesymphony Lite).


----------



## pinki

To answer the topic question as it seems timely in the thread. The original Spitfire Albion was a huge disappointment. I bought it because of the hype and instantly regretted it. No returns, no demos: Spitfire went on to make their empire with _that_ policy. Happily I learnt my lesson early and never purchased anything from them again despite the bulldozer of their marketing department.


----------



## MA-Simon

I have never, in my life, scetched anything with a sample library. Imho after the piano track it is straigh to production. I honestly don't know where you would find the time to scetch stuff?


----------



## NoamL

Land of Missing Parts said:


> I have this notion of "sketch-n-keep". Like, stuff that's quick to work with and good enough that a decent chunk can stay. I think Afflatus is great for that, since the polyphonic legato is so fast to work with.



That's a great way of putting it.

I usually write cues as piano sketches first and then synthestrate. When there's little time, I'll often go with the "easiest" library to just get the notes down fast, and then "upgrade" to a different library in the template if the results are not satisfactory. For background parts... when there's a deadline... there are times when the "sketching" library gets good enough results quickly enough. There are also plenty of times when I think an ensemble library will sound good enough, and then it doesn't so I break out the parts.


----------



## jbuhler

MA-Simon said:


> I have never, in my life, scetched anything with a sample library. Imho after the piano track it is straigh to production. I honestly don't know where you would find the time to scetch stuff?


Sketching with sample libraries rather than the piano. I never use the piano to sketch anything except piano music. Basically a DAW with a half dozen or so tracks with something like AROOF serves much the same function as a 4-6 staff short score.


----------



## mutex

el-bo said:


> Wow! The BBC Orchestra, at the now defunct Maida Vale studios. I had no reason not to take their word that his was the absolute pinnacle in orchestral sampling.


That's exactly how I felt.


----------



## Mike Fox

BBCSO is a library I’ll never buy. I’ve yet to hear anything that made me go, “Wow! I need this!!!”. I’m really just not a fan of the tone overall, though i think some of the melodic perc sounds nice.

The tonal qualities of AR1 sounds MUCH better to my ears, despite the lack of articulations.

I just hate having to buy a “starter pack”, then wait for other sections to show up.

But to believe that BBCSO is the new standard in orchestral sampling? Well, that’s quite the statement, but everyone’s entitled to their opinion.


----------



## MA-Simon

jbuhler said:


> Sketching with sample libraries rather than the piano. I never use the piano to sketch anything except piano music. Basically a DAW with a half dozen or so tracks with something like AROOF serves much the same function as a 4-6 staff short score.


Just to clarify, music is just a hobby for me. So I only have 1-2h each day "maybe" to do anything music related at all. Most of the time I am at the piano. But scetching libraries are somewhat geared to hobbyists, that does not make sense to me, because _I_ just don't have the time to scetch. I would rather use the little time I have to just do something that sounds vaguely like I imagined.


----------



## jbuhler

Mike Fox said:


> BBCSO is a library I’ll never buy. I’ve yet to hear anything that made me go, “Wow! I need this!!!”. I’m really just not a fan of the tone overall, though i think some of the melodic perc sounds nice.
> 
> The tonal qualities of AR1 sounds MUCH better to my ears, despite the lack of articulations.
> 
> I just hate having to buy a “starter pack”, then wait for other sections to show up.
> 
> But to believe that BBCSO is the new standard in orchestral sampling? Well, that’s quite the statement, but everyone’s entitled to their opinion.


My recollection was that BBCSO was sold as a new universal standard, and the "game changing" idea was realized with the alignment of discovery, core, and pro into a package that would allow projects to transfer among the various levels of the library—they wouldn't sound precisely the same, but a project started in one version of those libraries would open any of the others. I don't believe it was ever sold as "this is the best sampled library ever," and I don't think SF ever claimed it was even as deeply sampled as SSO. I also don't know whether the "universal" claim turned out to be operative (or useful) in practice.


----------



## ism

mutex said:


> Well, "The new Standard"? In what? I don't think anyone seriously thinks of the BBCSO as a new standard in terms of how to sample an orchestra. It doesn't even compete with already existing sample libraries from Spitfire itself in terms of quality (not to mention other companies). So why put out a statement like that?


You're confusing depth of sampling - and clearly BBCSO is a step backwards from SSO in this dimension, with the sound engineering and the capturing of a new sonority in a new space. And here it really is a new standard.


----------



## jbuhler

MA-Simon said:


> Just to clarify, music is just a hobby for me. So I only have 1-2h each day "maybe" to do anything music related at all. Most of the time I am at the piano. But scetching libraries are somewhat geared to hobbyists, that does not make sense to me, because _I_ just don't have the time to scetch. I would rather use the little time I have to just do something that sounds vaguely like I imagined.


You are sketching with the piano. Right there is the difference. I don't work at the piano, and I only use virtual pianos if I'm writing for piano. I also only rarely work in notation any more. The drafting is done in the DAW for the most part, though I do have a six staff notebook that I keep on my desk if need to work something out on paper.


----------



## mscp

Disappointing libraries...not sure I have ever come across one. I'm not trying to be neutral or anything, but every single library I have used have served me a very coarse of fine purpose.


----------



## Evans

Mike Fox said:


> Buying sample libraries is a personal/individual choice, and I feel bad for the person who buys *or passes up a library strictly based off of what someone told them.*


This is why I buy almost every library.

Okay, not really, but I've definitely bought some that I've never even used for a hobbyist track, much less professional use. But the same can go for several of my guitars. As well as the bassoon that's staring at me. And this one chair in my office that I've not sat in since the day it was delivered.


----------



## Mike Fox

Land of Missing Parts said:


> Just for the people reading this to inform their decisions --
> 
> Keep in mind this is a disappointment thread, so it's kind of like reading the one or two star reviews. There's other threads where people are happy with a lot of these things too.


This is a great point.


----------



## Guffy

8W has to be the biggest disappointment of all time, past and future. 
The second i got my hands on that library i felt robbed, and i still do.


----------



## Mike Greene

Mike T said:


> ... a combination of afternoon boredom and growing frustration with certain aspects of this forum, and that aforementioned stubbornness making it difficult to drop out ...


I've been sensing that, and there seems to be an edge to some recent posts. The problem is that although you tend to make good points, that edge can sometimes make things unpleasant for those of us who _aren't_ annoyed with the forum. Especially in this debate over the purpose of this thread, or Spitfire fans/detractors, where I think everyone already made their points 20 pages back and we're in a rinse and repeat loop.

If you have a forum complaint (I suspect you do,) we have a section for that, as well as the Drama Zone. That might be the better place to vent. Or if you want to stick to just the good stuff, I heard Realitone released a strings library, and there's a thread about that somewhere around here ...


----------



## CT

Mike Greene said:


> I've been sensing that, and there seems to be an edge to some recent posts. The problem is that although you tend to make good points, that edge can sometimes make things unpleasant for those of us who _aren't_ annoyed with the forum. Especially in this debate over the purpose of this thread, or Spitfire fans/detractors, where I think everyone already made their points 20 pages back and we're in a rinse and repeat loop.
> 
> If you have a forum complaint (I suspect you do,) we have a section for that, as well as the Drama Zone. That might be the better place to vent. Or if you want to stick to just the good stuff, I heard Realitone released a strings library, and there's a thread about that somewhere around here ...


Totally fair Mike, I have no _actionable_ complaints about the forum so it is indeed pointless to drone on about it, here or anywhere else. I have a feeling Deej is going to have more to say to me, and maybe others, but I'm quite content to be done with it regardless.


----------



## bill5

Sarah Mancuso said:


> The "sketching library" is a made-up idea that exists only in the minds of VI-Control users.


Not true!! https://norielbaet.blogspot.com/2011/05/library-sketches.html


----------



## Selfinflicted

Too many to recall. I feel like the guy who dates all the wrong girls, and LOTS of 'em, or maybe wakes up wondering how he ended up in a particular place with a particular lady whose name he can't recall..... only with sample libraries.

MOST RECENT disappointment - Cinematique Instrumements Ensemblia 2 - Orchestral and also Ensemblia2 Percussion. Demos seemed decent at the time, in a 'one button to rule them all' sort of load of BS way. Thing is I always hate those libraries. I much prefer to orchestrate myself, etc. And like life, I was probably in some way intoxicated with some distant fantasy, like having a cue sound good without working hard for it. So, yup - that's on me.

I instantly regretted it after downloading. I had even asked myself "really, another library?... just because there's a sale going?....dude...." And boom - insta-library-regret shame set in.

The thing with those libraries, you don't get much detail. If you're looking for really fast things that won't be under any sort of microscope.... meaning - no one is going to hear what you do with it at all, then this might be the library for you. But, I found the lack of dynamic layering and other details made this unusable for me.

Generally, I like Cinematique Instruments’ stuff - at least the purchases I've made from them. These two - no, especially at that price - even with the sale going.

I too haven't found a use for Abbey Road One. I 'm not say it's garbage, but feels more like an intro library. It does feel like a missed opportunity. In fairness, I have my suspicions about how willing AR would be to have a library made there that could actually do all the parts of an orchestral piece. AR One gives you a taste, but you would be seriously limited in trying to realize a whole piece with that library and nothing else - an thus, a unified AR sound.

Having most of the big name libraries and plenty of Spitfire stuff already that I use quite a bit, AR One didn't do much for me, really. I really don't expect one library to solve all my problems, I just hope a library I buy might be put to good use.


----------



## bill5

Casiquire said:


> Well we did have Hollywood Orchestra going from Silver up to Diamond, VSL going from Special Edition to full Cube, etc


Yeah, "tiering" is nothing new. The sounds, the features, and the workflow...none of it was ground-breaking. It's just a question of how well you think they did it, and of course opinions are all over the map. Personally I want ensembles and a full complement of solos, and Core didn't have either. I guess to try and goad you into getting Pro...that soured me out of the gate...then with some of the other things I'm hearing I'm unlikely to pull the trigger. I do have Discover and think it sounds very nice though. Then again my needs are probably diff from most here. Numerous mic positions and tons of articulations aren't as much of a thing to me.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Casiquire said:


> But, you don't see "setting the new standard" as an exaggeration when they really mean "we recorded everyone pretty much the same way everyone's been doing for the last fifteen years, but we used players who have experience together, which is mostly moot since we're recording them separately anyway"? If that's really the only thing they did differently, it's hardly a new standard.


Sure I can definitely see that perspective. I don't know that I would say it is mostly moot to record players that have a lot of experience playing and *blending* together - they didn't record individual players in the end. Even if they striped each instrument section, there's still that blending happening. To your point, maybe that's not enough for you to consider it a new standard. That they were able to do it all under $1k for the end customer (since optimizing operating and production costs is likely something they are continuing to push on)? Also maybe not a "standard" you care about. But since there is no universal definition of what defines a new standard, hard to argue either way outside of an opinion. AROOF for example has 5 dynamic layers - is that _more_ of a new standard? The same standard? Depends on how you look at it. Some folks will take the perspective that Spitfire is only out to make a quick buck by cutting corners and deceiving customers. Others will take a different perspective that Spitfire as a company is trying to continue to push on all fronts and raise the bar for sample libraries as much as they can.


----------



## Land of Missing Parts

Selfinflicted said:


> I 'm not say it's garbage, but feels more like an intro library. It does feel like a missed opportunity. In fairness, I have my suspicions about how willing AR would be to have a library made there that could actually do all the parts of an orchestral piece. AR One gives you a taste, but you would be seriously limited in trying to realize a whole piece with that library and nothing else - an thus, a unified AR sound.


They're making the full libraries, it just takes time.

People might not realize this, but to go from a sustains patch to a legato patch, you have to record 12 performances going up and 12 performances going down, then time, script, and test it all.

So that's 1 recording (per dynamic) versus 25 recordings.


----------



## jbuhler

Land of Missing Parts said:


> They're making the full libraries, it just takes time.
> 
> People might not realize this, but to go from a sustains patch to a legato patch, you have to record 12 performances going up and 12 times going down, then time, script, and test it all.
> 
> So that's 1 recording (per dynamic) versus 25 recordings.


And, say, for strings, rather than doing it for high and low strings (2 sections), you have to do it for 5. For woodwinds, rather than high and low woodwinds, you likely have solos for piccolo, flute, alto flute, oboe and English horn, clarinets, bass clarinet, contrabass clarinet, bassoon, and contrabassoon, so that's 10, plus a2 or a3 ensembles for flutes, oboes, clarinets, and bassoons, so four more. And the math for brass is similar. 

And then they have to edit and script all those additional recordings as well. With all the dynamic layers that is going to be a lot of editing and scripting.

I'm figuring the earliest we'll see any part of the modular library is second quarter 2022, possibly not until fall. And it will likely take them two years to complete it, maybe longer. (That completion time is one reason I think people will be thankful for AROOF when the modules finally start appearing. And it should also at that point be clear why SF called it Foundations.)


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Tralen said:


> I think this is a very important point.
> 
> We should not accept marketing and hype for libraries to be the same as for physical products that we can exchange or get a refund freely. Specially when there is no demo and the company has a "no refunds" policy.


I imagine if we all had that willpower, this thread would be a lot shorter / not exist


----------



## chocobitz825

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I imagine if we all had that willpower, this thread would be a lot shorter / not exist


Willpower sounds great! Where can I buy it? Will it have a pre-order discount!? Willpower is gonna change everything!


----------



## dzilizzi

chocobitz825 said:


> Willpower sounds great! Where can I buy it? Will it have a pre-order discount!? Willpower is gonna change everything!


When you find it, let me know so I can get some. 

The only Will Power I know of races Indy cars...... I don't know if he can be bought, per se, but I'm sure his time is for sale.


----------



## Mike Fox

Selfinflicted said:


> I don't get much use out of it.


This seems to be a reoccurring theme amongst AR adopters. Is it due to the lack of articulations, or something else?


----------



## mutex

ism said:


> I argue that BBCSO is, objectively, a new standard in a particular type of sampling.


Good, because they do have a nice sound. Now they just have to keep up with current standards in Spiccato sampling set by the other companies, because they seem to be lagging behind.

Violin Spiccato. Nucleus (first half) vs BBCSO (second half). Same MIDI.


----------



## Mike Fox

mutex said:


> Good, because they do have a nice sound. Now they just have to keep up with current standards in Spiccato sampling set by the other companies, because they seem to be lagging behind.
> 
> Violin Spiccato. Nucleus (first half) vs BBCSO (second half). Same MIDI.


Nothing is as precise as Audio Imperia’s spiccatos in terms of timing. 

Talk about a new standard.


----------



## chocobitz825

I think disappointment in libraries is inevitable. Particularly when it comes to things for orchestral and scoring purposes. Compared to physical products, modeled synth plug-ins and effects, the expectation vs. results conflict is big. I mean if I buy a Juno synth plug in, I know what I expect it to do and sound like. What do we expect when we hear marketing claims about the next big orchestral library? We often expect something that will fit how we write or fit the sounds we like. It leaves a large margin for error with developers because it’s impossible to make a library that fits everyone’s needs for a reasonable price. texture libraries are the ultimate gamble because you really never know what you’re getting until you try it.

It’s odd that the most hyped libraries I can recall in BBSCO, Nashville strings, Abbey Roads, MSS, and Opus have all managed to disappoint a lot of people deeply. BBCSO didn’t wow me, but it’s reliable and quick…I appreciate that. I missed the other libraries and probably for the best.


----------



## Mike Fox

ism said:


> And conversely, nobody - literally *nobody* - is upset if someone else doesn't like BBCSO or AROOF - like, literally, zero people, ever.


Uh...you sure about that? Pretty sure a lot of BBCSO fans were quite upset with bfreepro's review...






REVIEW: BBCSO Professional by Spitfire Audio


EDIT: after posting, I found out this library will be updated in the coming weeks and I WILL revise this review where necessary after the updates. Contrary to what some people assume, I really do want to love this library/plug-in and am genuinely happy they are releasing these updates! Original...




vi-control.net


----------



## Mike Greene

Things are (or rather, have been) getting our of hand with the tit for tat posts, so in hopes of calming things down, I'm deleting some posts. It's tough to follow exactly which arguments are friendly and which are not, so my deletions are admittedly sloppy.

This is an otherwise fun thread, though (don't tell developers I said that!), and it's actually pretty amazing that the thread hasn't been problematic (except for the last few days.) So I'd like to keep it more on point. Thanks.


----------



## zwhita

I'm new to buying sample libraries and find all of these youtube sales-pitch shenanigans to be mildly entertaining. Spitfire Paul seems like a grinning mattress salesman who would play you a lovely Nocturne while making his next 'excited to show you' announcement. Spitfire Christian seems like if Matt Hooper from the film Jaws had a Sirin fetish. It's so nice to just hear their enthusiasm and talent on display. So BBCSO has actually impressed me(an amateur) as a true accomplishment.


----------



## chillbot

Mike Greene said:


> This is an otherwise fun thread, though (don't tell developers I said that!), and it's actually pretty amazing that the thread hasn't been problematic (except for the last few days.) So I'd like to keep it more on point. Thanks.


Going to be honest, I got Realivox Ladies on a sale but I have never yet fit them into a project. Very disappointing. Are you still offering the money-back even if it's like 3 years later?


----------



## zwhita

Oh I should stay on topic and say I also have found this thread to be helpful. I hope to continue referring back in case of any doubts during future sales.

My most disappointing so far? Probably the older UVI Vintage Vault libraries desperately in need of updates. Most of the vintage selection in UVI Synth Anthology 1 and 2 as well. Not authentic in tone in the least.


----------



## ism

Mike Fox said:


> Uh...you sure about that? Pretty sure a lot of BBCSO fans were quite upset with bfreepro's review...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REVIEW: BBCSO Professional by Spitfire Audio
> 
> 
> EDIT: after posting, I found out this library will be updated in the coming weeks and I WILL revise this review where necessary after the updates. Contrary to what some people assume, I really do want to love this library/plug-in and am genuinely happy they are releasing these updates! Original...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Well yes, this is what I'm arguing.

I'm aware of that thread, and I'm certainly not defending everything everything that happened on it. Just that I think there are perhaps more helpful ways to understand the dynamics of that particular dumpster fire.


----------



## ism

chillbot said:


> Going to be honest, I got Realivox Ladies on a sale but I have never yet fit them into a project. Very disappointing. Are you still offering the money-back even if it's like 3 years later?


Well the minute I find something disappointing about Sunset Strings, I'll be sure to express my disappointment here also.

Actually, that's maybe a high bar. How about: the minute I find something less than sublimely beautiful about Sunset Strings I'll be sure to enthuse about it slightly less effusively that usual all over this thread.

Honestly I've had such a truly fantastic run of libraries in the last few years (ie. Stratus, EWC, Sunset Strings, Tallin ...) I'd really have to go back a ways to find something even mildly disappointing. 

And to be fair, it's partly because I pay attention to all the (sufficiently critical) moaning on on vi-c.

(And maybe also that I've learned how to interpret and filter and parse both all the insufficiently critical moaning and all the insufficiently critical enthusing.)


----------



## VSriHarsha

Thanks @LauraC !


----------



## asherpope

Paul Cardon said:


> Also, Sonokinetic's phrase-based libraries are such an incredible mixed bag, huge highs and huge lows.
> 
> I bought Largo and Indie in the same purchase. Indie is incredible, super inspiring, great pulses and underscore material, some really unique stuff, have found some really cool uses for it over time.


I bought Indie last year and was so keen to get stuck in as the demos are great. I've got it...and haven't used it once! The phrases are absolutely beautiful and have a great Jon Brion esque sound but for the life of me I can't get them to sit properly in a mix. The timing and tuning always seem just a little off.


----------



## jbuhler

asherpope said:


> I bought Indie last year and was so keen to get stuck in as the demos are great. I've got it...and haven't used it once! The phrases are absolutely beautiful and have a great Jon Brion esque sound but for the life of me I can't get them to sit properly in a mix. The timing and tuning always seem just a little off.


Did you check the tuning on the librsry? Many of the Sinokinetic libraries are recorded and released at 442, I think and so you need to adjust down. There should be a setting in the library to choose the tuning.


----------



## asherpope

jbuhler said:


> Did you check the tuning on the librsry? Many of the Sinokinetic libraries are recorded and released at 442, I think and so you need to adjust down. There should be a setting in the library to choose the tuning.


I haven't checked that but thanks for the tip


----------



## Markrs

asherpope said:


> I bought Indie last year and was so keen to get stuck in as the demos are great. I've got it...and haven't used it once! The phrases are absolutely beautiful and have a great Jon Brion esque sound but for the life of me I can't get them to sit properly in a mix. The timing and tuning always seem just a little off.


Not sure if it would help with getting them sitting in the mix or not, but Sonokinetic have created IRs (based on the mic positions) of the Zlin Concert Hall where the phrase libraries are recorded. 









Zlin Impulse Responses


The attachment below provides the IR's for the Zlin Concert Hall where we recorded our orchestral libraries. Please note that these are not the same as those provided by Altiverb. If you have Altiverb, please use those instead.




support.sonokinetic.net


----------



## pinki

Ah all the interesting stuff deleted again.


----------



## Drundfunk

pinki said:


> Ah all the interesting stuff deleted again.


I always seem to miss the drama... Story of my life.... Reminds me of school whenever someone would ask me "Hey, have you heard, X and Y broke up?" and I usually was like "Wait! They were together?".... Just ONCE, just ONCE I want to experience the drama and MAYBE be a part of it..... So frustrating..... . 

Also, the correct answer to the topic is: Everything I'll buy in the future. I don't need more sample libraries... . Just no.... . (and I have actually no idea why I own AI Jaeger. I basically bought it for Merethe which then was released a few months later as a standalone....Never use the rest of the package (especially not the brass. I tried using it, but I always seem to replace it). In hindisight that was a great waste of money...)


----------



## dzilizzi

Drundfunk said:


> I always seem to miss the drama... Story of my life.... Reminds me of school whenever someone would ask me "Hey, have you heard, X and Y broke up?" and I usually was like "Wait! They were together?".... Just ONCE, just ONCE I want to experience the drama and MAYBE be a part of it..... So frustrating..... .
> 
> Also, the correct answer to the topic is: Everything I'll buy in the future. I don't need more sample libraries... . Just no.... . (and I have actually no idea why I own AI Jaeger. I basically bought it for Merethe which then was released a few months later as a standalone....Never use the rest of the package (especially not the brass. I tried using it, but I always seem to replace it). In hindisight that was a great waste of money...)


The drama wasn't really too bad this time. No real name calling or anything..... 

Edit: Just one question - how do you know it is everything you buy from now on that you are disappointed in and not everything you own now? Because, of course, everything in the future will be better. It always is. Right?!?!?!?


----------



## cygnusdei

pinki said:


> Ah all the interesting stuff deleted again.


You can still read the emails


----------



## hauspe

back to topic tbh: 

8DIO Majestica - and tons of Synth stuff (like Hexeract, stuff from Rigid Audio etc - not really library related but mentioned for the sake of completeness).


----------



## bvaughn0402

I was thinking about this ... from my own experience ...

I would say nearly 99.9% of the time, my biggest disappointments are plugins NOT samples. The latest compressor ... or channel strip ... or reverb ...

And to be honest, I hardly ever hear the difference it makes. Especially all the compression, channel strip, saturation, etc. People swear they hear the difference that putting a SSL or Neve channel strip makes, and to be honest ... I struggle hearing it.

I would bet if someone mixed the same song on Logic or Pro Tools stock plugins ... versus the most expensive ones on the market ... I would bet 9/10 people would not be able to hear the difference.

Reverb or Delay? Maybe 7/10 people would never hear the difference.

Bad samples like orchestra? Maybe 3/10 would not hear it.

I just am almost always disappointed by any plugin. 

Most samples I enjoy in some form. The Get Good Drums was my biggest disappointment of late, but I'm sure it is user error. Areia strings was disappointing too, but again it is probably me.

To me, I always end up back with Berlin Strings, and possibly Spitfire Chamber. I don't know why I insist on the "holy grail" where I buy every string package out there. I should learn from my plugin disappointment. 

I think that is another reason I struggled with templates. The template felt like a temptation to just buy more stuff. But now, I'm thinking of building a template like I'm actually paying musicians. So, I can't have 50 different string libraries. I have ONE. And if there are others I have, then they have to prove they are better to replace them.

Use the same musicians (i.e. samples) until I find a better one to replace them with. But until then do NOT replace them. Instead use them ... and get music out.

There is something magical about putting limitations. So if I buy 100 compressors, then fine. But in an actual studio I'd probably only have access to 2-3 of them. Use my spare time to test out the other 98 (like my own personal Guitar Center), BUT ... it never touches the studio unless I commit to it. AND I replace. 

So much of my time wasted. Kind of like how email at work can make you feel like you are "doing" work, but you really aren't. 

Less is more ...


----------



## turnerofwheels

bvaughn0402 said:


> I was thinking about this ... from my own experience ...
> 
> I would say nearly 99.9% of the time, my biggest disappointments are plugins NOT samples. The latest compressor ... or channel strip ... or reverb ...
> 
> And to be honest, I hardly ever hear the difference it makes. Especially all the compression, channel strip, saturation, etc. People swear they hear the difference that putting a SSL or Neve channel strip makes, and to be honest ... I struggle hearing it.
> 
> I would bet if someone mixed the same song on Logic or Pro Tools stock plugins ... versus the most expensive ones on the market ... I would bet 9/10 people would not be able to hear the difference.
> 
> 
> Less is more ...


I watched a Bobby Owsinski course recently and half the time he was just using stock Pro Tools plugins. The fancier plugins, he explained why he would use them for a specific situation, eg an 1176 for a fast attack or a specific tone. This use of stock plugins isn't unusual in my experience so far tbh.

Also the quality of plugins from DAWs these days is pretty amazing compared to the past.. ableton, Nuendo, they all come with great stuff

(On hearing the difference, I heard this joke a long time ago but it's true: there is not a single person who has done a lot of mixing who hasn't found themselves tweaking an EQ or something on a muted channel strip for 20 minutes, totally sure you could hear it. Ears are just too open to suggestion so when I'm buying plugins, I try to do blind ab comparison tests with other plugins)


----------



## Trash Panda

bvaughn0402 said:


> I was thinking about this ... from my own experience ...
> 
> I would say nearly 99.9% of the time, my biggest disappointments are plugins NOT samples. The latest compressor ... or channel strip ... or reverb ...
> 
> And to be honest, I hardly ever hear the difference it makes. Especially all the compression, channel strip, saturation, etc. People swear they hear the difference that putting a SSL or Neve channel strip makes, and to be honest ... I struggle hearing it.
> 
> I would bet if someone mixed the same song on Logic or Pro Tools stock plugins ... versus the most expensive ones on the market ... I would bet 9/10 people would not be able to hear the difference.
> 
> Reverb or Delay? Maybe 7/10 people would never hear the difference.
> 
> Bad samples like orchestra? Maybe 3/10 would not hear it.
> 
> I just am almost always disappointed by any plugin.
> 
> Most samples I enjoy in some form. The Get Good Drums was my biggest disappointment of late, but I'm sure it is user error. Areia strings was disappointing too, but again it is probably me.
> 
> To me, I always end up back with Berlin Strings, and possibly Spitfire Chamber. I don't know why I insist on the "holy grail" where I buy every string package out there. I should learn from my plugin disappointment.
> 
> I think that is another reason I struggled with templates. The template felt like a temptation to just buy more stuff. But now, I'm thinking of building a template like I'm actually paying musicians. So, I can't have 50 different string libraries. I have ONE. And if there are others I have, then they have to prove they are better to replace them.
> 
> Use the same musicians (i.e. samples) until I find a better one to replace them with. But until then do NOT replace them. Instead use them ... and get music out.
> 
> There is something magical about putting limitations. So if I buy 100 compressors, then fine. But in an actual studio I'd probably only have access to 2-3 of them. Use my spare time to test out the other 98 (like my own personal Guitar Center), BUT ... it never touches the studio unless I commit to it. AND I replace.
> 
> So much of my time wasted. Kind of like how email at work can make you feel like you are "doing" work, but you really aren't.
> 
> Less is more ...


I’ve found the most helpful focus on non-character plugins is if it makes it easier/faster to get to the desired end results.

With character plugins, I find it useful to run two sets of sends - one to a bus with the effect, another without the effect to a bus with inverted phase, and sum those two on a third bus to hear exactly what the plugin is doing. In some cases, the difference in signal is so quiet, you’d have a hard time picking it out by itself, but enough subtle changes can lead to a change that is subtle enough to “feel” but not enough to “hear.” Sometimes it’s just snake oil.


----------



## DrSgtShock

I regret purchasing Soundiron's Flatulus because now I want to sneak it into every piece I make. That trailer impact? Listen a bit closer. That ambient pad? That's not air you're breathing, Neo.


----------



## nolotrippen

chillbot said:


> Going to be honest, I got Realivox Ladies on a sale but I have never yet fit them into a project. Very disappointing. Are you still offering the money-back even if it's like 3 years later?


I personally love the ladies.


----------



## el-bo

nolotrippen said:


> I personally love the ladies.


----------



## MaxOctane

bvaughn0402 said:


> I would bet if someone mixed the same song on Logic or Pro Tools stock plugins ... versus the most expensive ones on the market ... I would bet 9/10 people would not be able to hear the difference.


Billie Eilish's album was all stock Logic, a TLM103, and two scoops of talent.


----------



## biomuse

MaxOctane said:


> Billie Eilish's album was all stock Logic, a TLM103, and two scoops of talent.


Well, until it was sent to mastering, right?

But on VIs, your point is well taken.


----------



## SupremeFist

biomuse said:


> Well, until it was sent to mastering, right?
> 
> But on VIs, your point is well taken.


AFAIK it was sent to a mixing engineer first.


----------



## Paul Cardon

biomuse said:


> Well, until it was sent to mastering, right?
> 
> But on VIs, your point is well taken.


Fancy mixing hardware and software is less about going from bad to good mixes and more about getting that final 5-10% of the way, if even. Most stock plugins are wonderfully capable with smart usage, and most of the "better" plugins excel because they're quicker/easier to get good sound from out of the box. Built-in character that you can arrive to with very little tweaking, they're optimized for that, but often, you can get super close with many other things if you spend a bit of time with them.

There are a few recent producers that have been doing walkthroughs of their work lately, and they'll often show off the pre-mix/master versions of their sessions, and more often than not, they already sound pretty good. Obviously, the dedicated mixing and mastering engineers bring it up a notch, but who says even they are using all the fanciest most expensive plugins and hardware out there for every step of the process? (Though most would like you to believe they are to help justify their prices. Expensive gear is good at dazzling clients, no problem with that)

Hell, when I'm mixing (and I do professional mixing/mastering work outside of my composing career), 80-90% of my EQ work is just the stock channel EQ in Cubase which is hardly innovative or special and even has some frustrating limitations in a few areas, but normally, I don't need the functionality those limitations wall me off from. I just need to do some quick tone shaping or stamp out a problem.

The tiny little details and characteristics of our gear and software is fun stuff to learn, but that knowledge has to be employed with restraint. We're better when we sit back and use our ears to realize most of the minutiae does not matter 95% of the time and would bog us down otherwise.

For example, Dan Worrall has some great videos about a handful of the stock plugins in Reaper and how versatile and usable they are:


----------



## Paul Cardon

Paul Cardon said:


> Fancy mixing hardware and software is less about going from bad to good mixes and more about getting that final 5-10% of the way, if even. Most stock plugins are wonderfully capable with smart usage, and most of the "better" plugins excel because they're quicker/easier to get good sound from out of the box. Built-in character that you can arrive to with very little tweaking, they're optimized for that, but often, you can get super close with many other things if you spend a bit of time with them.
> 
> There are a few recent producers that have been doing walkthroughs of their work lately, and they'll often show off the pre-mix/master versions of their sessions, and more often than not, they already sound pretty good. Obviously, the dedicated mixing and mastering engineers bring it up a notch, but who says even they are using all the fanciest most expensive plugins and hardware out there for every step of the process? (Though most would like you to believe they are to help justify their prices. Expensive gear is good at dazzling clients, no problem with that)
> 
> Hell, when I'm mixing (and I do professional mixing/mastering work outside of my composing career), 80-90% of my EQ work is just the stock channel EQ in Cubase which is hardly innovative or special and even has some frustrating limitations in a few areas, but normally, I don't need the functionality those limitations wall me off from. I just need to do some quick tone shaping or stamp out a problem.
> 
> The tiny little details and characteristics of our gear and software is fun stuff to learn, but that knowledge has to be employed with restraint. We're better when we sit back and use our ears to realize most of the minutia does not matter 95% of the time and would bog us down otherwise.
> 
> For example, Dan Worrall has some great videos about a handful of the stock plugins in Reaper and how versatile and usable they are:



Also worth adding I think a lot of this applies to virtual instruments as well. A lot of us on this forum are both drawn to the minutiae, the tiny details, to try and highlight strengths or explain problems we have with libraries, but we're also in an endless pursuit of VIs that sound and do great things right out of the box. Tempering our expectations on both sides of the equation is really important, because often, through understanding the tiny details (truly understanding them through hands-on work and experimentation), we can do great things with libraries that could be labeled "sub-par" by others, but libraries that have great character and sound right out of the box, that work with the style of the project we're creating, that we don't need to think too hard about, are massively helpful!

But as I've said before around here: every library is full of trade-offs and compromises. Every library is a photo of a moment in time. Every library is programmed with wins and losses informed by the picture that came out of the recording session, players and space and engineering and etc., so we have to be open to the idea that no library is perfect for everything, and almost every library CAN find a place.

Obviously, there's some shoddy stuff out there, but most other libraries will have a place in a piece of work at some moment in time, which is why it's really easy to disagree about this stuff. I've used AROOF in varying amounts on every single project I've worked on since I got it, but I also get why others don't like it, and that's all normal.


----------



## ControlCentral

Mike Fox said:


> Absolutely they did! The instruments and articulations for EWQLSO is possibly the most comprehensive to date. It was crazy ahead of its time, and i still use several patches from it.


I agree. I barely do any orchestral stuff but EWQLSO was a real workhorse. The only reason I wanted to level-up was that after a while the reverb just seemed excessive-- I had made my peace with the workflow. But the libraries I've heard since then make me realize what a great engineer Shawn Murphy is. Love 'em or hate 'em, we're all standing on the shoulders of the EastWest Doug Rogers crew. And 8Dio and Spitfire are on my blacklist.


----------



## mutex

ControlCentral said:


> And 8Dio and Spitfire are on my blacklist


Any particular reason why?


----------



## Tralen

chocobitz825 said:


> I think disappointment in libraries is inevitable. Particularly when it comes to things for orchestral and scoring purposes. Compared to physical products, modeled synth plug-ins and effects, the expectation vs. results conflict is big. I mean if I buy a Juno synth plug in, I know what I expect it to do and sound like. What do we expect when we hear marketing claims about the next big orchestral library? We often expect something that will fit how we write or fit the sounds we like. It leaves a large margin for error with developers because it’s impossible to make a library that fits everyone’s needs for a reasonable price. texture libraries are the ultimate gamble because you really never know what you’re getting until you try it.
> 
> It’s odd that the most hyped libraries I can recall in BBSCO, Nashville strings, Abbey Roads, MSS, and Opus have all managed to disappoint a lot of people deeply. BBCSO didn’t wow me, but it’s reliable and quick…I appreciate that. I missed the other libraries and probably for the best.


I would say what sets people up for disappointment is exactly the marketing.


----------



## bill5

I'd say it's much more like crows drawn to shiny objects and people kidding themselves. Anyone who buys into marketing without a huge grain of salt at the very least is IMO being very naive. We're bombarded with marketing and advertising schleck for just about every product on the market, all claiming to be wonderous in this or that way, from sports cars to frozen foods. We don't buy into it for most of that stuff, why buy it for plugins?


----------



## Tralen

bill5 said:


> I'd say it's much more like crows drawn to shiny objects and people kidding themselves. Anyone who buys into marketing without a huge grain of salt at the very least is IMO being very naive. We're bombarded with marketing and advertising schleck for just about every product on the market, all claiming to be wonderous in this or that way, from sports cars to frozen foods. We don't buy into it for most of that stuff, why buy it for plugins?


Well, as said previously in this thread, with other stuff we usually have a full refund policy. The marketing for plugins could lead to disproportional disappointment, in comparison to other products.


----------



## Tekkera

A majority of cinesamples orchestra stuff


----------



## bill5

Tralen said:


> Well, as said previously in this thread, with other stuff we usually have a full refund policy. The marketing for plugins could lead to disproportional disappointment, in comparison to other products.


I get you, i.e. the only way to know if it lives up to the hype is to get it, and if it doesn't, your S.O.L...I guess I'm just saying that's why people should be even more skeptical/cautious of advertising, not less.

Of course GAS never plays a part


----------



## zwhita

Tekkera said:


> A majority of cinesamples orchestra stuff


I was surprised how expensive they normally are considering the legatos in Cinestrings Solo, Cinebrass Pro and Cinewinds Pro mostly appear to have sloppy and unpredictable timing, but that could be something I haven't configured correctly or I just can't play well.
More disappointing was how not-so-short the shorts are(both attack and release). Saw it suggested to lower tempo, print the audio and time-stretch back to your project tempo, but this is a cumbersome workaround that may not always sound natural. Just messing with the envelopes after selecting all groups doesn't do anything.


----------



## Tekkera

zwhita said:


> I was surprised how expensive they normally are considering the legatos in Cinestrings Solo, Cinebrass Pro and Cinewinds Pro mostly appear to have sloppy and unpredictable timing, but that could be something I haven't configured correctly or I just can't play well.
> More disappointing was how not-so-short the shorts are(both attack and release). Saw it suggested to lower tempo, print the audio and time-stretch back to your project tempo, but this is a cumbersome workaround that may not always sound natural. Just messing with the envelopes after selecting all groups doesn't do anything.


Nothing to really adjust that would be worth your time to do. Some sections in Cinebrass are just way, way way slower reacting. For example, the a2 horns vs the a6 horns. The a2 horns all around are extremely slow reacting, while the a6 horns are very fast reacting, especially in the higher register. Cinesamples generally has okay timing, but there are some things that are just completely wrong in the performances themselves.


----------



## becolossal

bill5 said:


> I get you, i.e. the only way to know if it lives up to the hype is to get it, and if it doesn't, your S.O.L...I guess I'm just saying that's why people should be even more skeptical/cautious of advertising, not less.
> 
> Of course GAS never plays a part


I feel this. I wouldn't say there are any libraries I've bought that I'm utterly disappointed in, but I have spent a lot of time (and money) finding what works best for me over the last 20-odd years. From the earliest EW stuff to the most recent Spitfire stuff and everything in between, I've bought a lot of stuff I just flat out don't use all that often, but all of them have taught me something along the way.


----------



## proxima

While I very slowly get use of them over the years, spending ~$800 on an EW composer bundle feels like a waste. I got HS Gold, HB Gold, EWQL Gold, Spaces, Silk and Ra. I just didn't use enough of it early enough. Even after HO Diamond got so cheap, I didn't go for it because I had a bit of a bad taste in my mouth that the full version was routinely cheaper than the upgrades. 

I ended up buying and using CS2 more than HS, and now I use CSS as well. I do like HB, but I see myself completely the CS series eventually. 

I've been far more inspired by individual instruments like Efimov's Duduk and even the free NI Yangqin than most of Silk and Ra.


----------



## VSriHarsha

dzilizzi said:


> The drama wasn't really too bad this time. No real name calling or anything.....
> 
> Edit: Just one question - how do you know it is everything you buy from now on that you are disappointed in and not everything you own now? Because, of course, everything in the future will be better. It always is. Right?!?!?!?


That is right!


----------



## VSriHarsha

zwhita said:


> I was surprised how expensive they normally are considering the legatos in Cinestrings Solo, Cinebrass Pro and Cinewinds Pro mostly appear to have sloppy and unpredictable timing, but that could be something I haven't configured correctly or I just can't play well.
> More disappointing was how not-so-short the shorts are(both attack and release). Saw it suggested to lower tempo, print the audio and time-stretch back to your project tempo, but this is a cumbersome workaround that may not always sound natural. Just messing with the envelopes after selecting all groups doesn't do anything.


Well, I actually like their libraries. I don’t have any of theirs but I will buy it even a thousand people say it won’t live up to the expectations coz I know how to work those things out & if I don’t, I’ll literally take their help in every damn step of creating a track. But yea, I realize that not all will ever say & or hear it will not live up to the expectations.
Well, I believe nothing, no damn thing IS perfect in the world. Not even bots these days lol so having the privilege of owning the entire symphonic collection of CineSample is quite a deal. And let’s face it! It has this “Hollywood Sound”.


----------



## holywilly

Bible of Salsa bundle. I have no idea why the key maps for loops and instruments are such a mess, they really need to organize the damn key map for efficiency. 
The sounds aren’t not bad tho, just feel frustrated when I have to transpose down to C-2 for just one loop.


----------



## NKAudio

Daily Patcher said:


> +1 for BT Phobos.


Late to the party here, but +1 for Phobos as well. Maybe I just haven't found the right musical/sonic application, but it's been the only purchase I've truly regretted. Which is sad, because I really respect BT's work.


----------



## easyrider

NKAudio said:


> Late to the party here, but +1 for Phobos as well. Maybe I just haven't found the right musical/sonic application, but it's been the only purchase I've truly regretted. Which is sad, because I really respect BT's work.


That’s the exact reason why I didn’t jump on the bundle for 65%off


----------



## DrSgtShock

Palette's Orchestral FX has been a disappointment for me. Not only did I buy it a couple weeks before it went on sale, I've just really been having trouble fitting it into my compositions. The stuff not already covered by Metropolis Arks I/II (which have plenty of cluster stabs and glissandos) are the huge risers and cacophonous swells that sounded really cool at the time of purchase but now feel limited to either cartoons or horror -- neither of which are styles I'm currently writing for. I mean this is probably a limitation fueled more by my own ignorance of what sounds like that can be applied to, so I'm sure if I find the right scores I can get some inspiration and really get some use out of those dollars I spent.


----------



## zwhita

VSriHarsha said:


> I don’t have any of theirs but I will buy it even a thousand people say it won’t live up to the expectations coz I know how to work those things out...


If someone can figure out how to fix the out of tune vibrato crossfades, I'm all ears. The Cinesamples tone sounds great. Still useless.


----------



## Futchibon

I found District 4 in MA1 disappointing and never use it: guitars are poor, drumkit is average, bass is nice but not as good as others. Yet MA1 is one of my favourite libraries as the first 3 Districts are awesome, so go figure!


----------



## Ciochi

hauspe said:


> back to topic tbh:
> 
> 8DIO Majestica - and tons of Synth stuff (like Hexeract, stuff from Rigid Audio etc - not really library related but mentioned for the sake of completeness).


why you say rigid audio? I dont love the multi layer synth like cinematrix, but the pad stuff like viego or pad therapy I think is great, for the price also.


----------



## hauspe

Ciochi said:


> why you say rigid audio? I dont love the multi layer synth like cinematrix, but the pad stuff like viego or pad therapy I think is great, for the price also.


I think I have all from RA and never used one single sample or instrument. At least only these folders are still on my SSD: Nylonist, Aquiver, Metawave, Sore, Stompbox and Viego. They are (still) on my SSD just in case that one day I could use them...


----------



## Ciochi

hauspe said:


> I think I have all from RA and never used one single sample or instrument. At least only these folders are still on my SSD: Nylonist, Aquiver, Metawave, Sore, Stompbox and Viego. They are (still) on my SSD just in case that one day I could use them...


i found that those I said before are great for ambience.


----------



## hauspe

Everyone is entitled to his own views.


----------



## lastmessiah

bvaughn0402 said:


> I was thinking about this ... from my own experience ...
> 
> I would say nearly 99.9% of the time, my biggest disappointments are plugins NOT samples. The latest compressor ... or channel strip ... or reverb ...
> 
> And to be honest, I hardly ever hear the difference it makes. Especially all the compression, channel strip, saturation, etc. People swear they hear the difference that putting a SSL or Neve channel strip makes, and to be honest ... I struggle hearing it.
> 
> I would bet if someone mixed the same song on Logic or Pro Tools stock plugins ... versus the most expensive ones on the market ... I would bet 9/10 people would not be able to hear the difference.
> 
> Reverb or Delay? Maybe 7/10 people would never hear the difference.
> 
> Bad samples like orchestra? Maybe 3/10 would not hear it.
> 
> I just am almost always disappointed by any plugin.
> 
> Most samples I enjoy in some form. The Get Good Drums was my biggest disappointment of late, but I'm sure it is user error. Areia strings was disappointing too, but again it is probably me.
> 
> To me, I always end up back with Berlin Strings, and possibly Spitfire Chamber. I don't know why I insist on the "holy grail" where I buy every string package out there. I should learn from my plugin disappointment.
> 
> I think that is another reason I struggled with templates. The template felt like a temptation to just buy more stuff. But now, I'm thinking of building a template like I'm actually paying musicians. So, I can't have 50 different string libraries. I have ONE. And if there are others I have, then they have to prove they are better to replace them.
> 
> Use the same musicians (i.e. samples) until I find a better one to replace them with. But until then do NOT replace them. Instead use them ... and get music out.
> 
> There is something magical about putting limitations. So if I buy 100 compressors, then fine. But in an actual studio I'd probably only have access to 2-3 of them. Use my spare time to test out the other 98 (like my own personal Guitar Center), BUT ... it never touches the studio unless I commit to it. AND I replace.
> 
> So much of my time wasted. Kind of like how email at work can make you feel like you are "doing" work, but you really aren't.
> 
> Less is more ...


There is the weird internet phenomenon of people insisting that hyped-up plugins are so much better than what you already have. It makes no sense. This is audio, not wristwatches or bicycles. In fact, it is better to have everything integrated in a cohesive environment without having to load some redundant and bloated plugin. And it forces you to just get down to business and compose. I think a lot of this is just people collecting things and fetishizing their collections.


----------



## Ian Dorsch

My usual MO is to wait to purchase a library I'm interested in until we've gone through the initial backlash, the backlash to the backlash, and reached the first round of big developer sales. At that point, after reading pages and pages of grievances and bitter disagreements, I am usually pleasantly surprised when I actually fire up the lib.


----------



## doctoremmet

Ian Dorsch said:


> My usual MO is to wait to purchase a library I'm interested in until we've gone through the initial backlash, the backlash to the backlash, and reached the first round of big developer sales. At that point, after reading pages and pages of grievances and bitter disagreements, I am usually pleasantly surprised when I actually fire up the lib.


Strategy works. I guess that’s why I’m an 8Dio fan haha. Post of the day


----------



## Faruh Al-Baghdadi

Ian Dorsch said:


> My usual MO is to wait to purchase a library I'm interested in until we've gone through the initial backlash, the backlash to the backlash, and reached the first round of big developer sales. At that point, after reading pages and pages of grievances and bitter disagreements, I am usually pleasantly surprised when I actually fire up the


People even built a statue in Siberia for those who buy libraries in the first week and via pre-sale orders.


----------



## Groctave

*Berlin Brass* - A great _pianissimo _to _mezzo-forte _library despite, some inconcictencies, but why didn't you record fortissimo? It's a BRASS library, for sake!!! And you can't resell it... No more Orchestral Tools libraries for me.
*Synchron Strings* (the first one) - Even with the updates, it couldn't fit to my tastes. But you CAN resell VSL libraries and my Synchron Strings finally made somebody happy.


----------



## Artemi

Groctave said:


> *Berlin Brass* - A great _pianissimo _to _mezzo-forte _library despite, some inconcictencies, but why didn't you record fortissimo? It's a BRASS library, for sake!!! And you can't resell it... No more Orchestral Tools libraries for me.


The new SINE version of the library will have a fortissimo layer, and you most likely will get this version for free sooo... yeah


----------



## Groctave

Artemi said:


> The new SINE version of the library will have a fortissimo layer, and you most likely will get this version for free sooo... yeah


Oooooooh... You made my day!


----------



## Casiquire

Groctave said:


> *Berlin Brass* - A great _pianissimo _to _mezzo-forte _library despite, some inconcictencies, but why didn't you record fortissimo? It's a BRASS library, for sake!!! And you can't resell it... No more Orchestral Tools libraries for me.
> *Synchron Strings* (the first one) - Even with the updates, it couldn't fit to my tastes. But you CAN resell VSL libraries and my Synchron Strings finally made somebody happy.


I happen to adore Berlin Brass. First off, they've recorded an extra layer which we'll get soon enough. But second, in the meantime, just use marcato patches with legato on. It seems like an odd reason to put a whole company in the "never again" category


----------



## ProfoundSilence

Casiquire said:


> I happen to adore Berlin Brass. First off, they've recorded an extra layer which we'll get soon enough. But second, in the meantime, just use marcato patches with legato on. It seems like an odd reason to put a whole company in the "never again" category



The closest to a "never again" I've got is maybe EW? 

That never again will change when they realize every single one of their competitors also do things to but them.


----------



## Hendrixon

Is it just me or does this odd fellow is knitting a DNA?


----------



## Double Helix

Hendrixon said:


> Is it just me or does this odd fellow is knitting a DNA?


It's not just you. . .


----------



## Futchibon

Hendrixon said:


> Is it just me or does this odd fellow is knitting a DNA?


Or it could be a spiral ladder if you're not rich enough to buy a spiral staircase


----------



## JamelaBanderson

Pfundstein HEY! Shouts
I only paid $1 for it but it is a Kontakt instrument with moving graphics. There is ONE single WAV file that says "hey." No effects, no NKS, no transpose, no tempo sync... WTF.
I could have duplicated my own "hey" with better satisfaction than this. 
Even $1 was too much.


----------



## Getsumen

JamelaBanderson said:


> Pfundstein HEY! Shouts
> I only paid $1 for it but it is a Kontakt instrument with moving graphics. There is ONE single WAV file that says "hey." No effects, no NKS, no transpose, no tempo sync... WTF.
> I could have duplicated my own "hey" with better satisfaction than this.
> Even $1 was too much.


I find that hysterical for some reason. The fact that someone spent effort on scripting a GUI with moving graphics, but didn't want to record more than one "Hey!" baffles me.


----------



## bill5

Apparently we're calling a single instrument a "library," so.....mine is 8Dio's Spirit Flute. A modest purchase, so if that's the worst I do, great, but still have a few others I haven't fully checked out yet which might replace this...


----------



## bill5

Getsumen said:


> I find that hysterical for some reason. The fact that someone spent effort on scripting a GUI with moving graphics, but didn't want to record more than one "Hey!" baffles me.


That is hilarious, but I can understand annoying to the OP, even for a buck. lol @ recording "hey!" and calling it a VI. I can't wait for the upcoming releases of "Hi!" and "Dude!"


----------



## bill5

Hendrixon said:


> Is it just me or does this odd fellow is knitting a DNA?


lol yes.

And wtf IS that anyway? For some reason "The Secret of NIMH" came to mind.


----------



## proxima

bill5 said:


> Apparently we're calling a single instrument a "library," so.....mine is 8Dio's Spirit Flute. A modest purchase, so if that's the worst I do, great, but still have a few others I haven't fully checked out yet which might replace this...


A "sample library" is simply a collection (a library) of samples. They can all be for a single instrument.


----------



## bill5

Makes sense on a fundamental level, though I don't agree with defining it that way. When I think of a VI, I don't think "library." To me that's a collection of VIs. And often it seems to be presented that way online too. It seems a little fuzzy generally


----------



## Getsumen

bill5 said:


> lol yes.
> 
> And wtf IS that anyway? For some reason "The Secret of NIMH" came to mind.


It's a statue in I think Russia? (Not 100% sure of the location) dedicated towards all the rats that gave their lives in medical research I believe.


----------



## halfwalk

bill5 said:


> Makes sense on a fundamental level, though I don't agree with defining it that way. When I think of a VI, I don't think "library." To me that's a collection of VIs. And often it seems to be presented that way online too. It seems a little fuzzy generally


When you consider that it is a collection of dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of individual recordings of musical performances, curated and assembled into a single location (a sampler patch), library sort of makes sense. Personally if I see a piano sample library, I assume it is a single piano (unless specifically stated otherwise).


----------



## WWBiscuit

halfwalk said:


> When you consider that it is a collection of dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of individual recordings of musical performances, curated and assembled into a single location (a sampler patch), library sort of makes sense. Personally if I see a piano sample library, I assume it is a single piano (unless specifically stated otherwise).


Even by that criterion, the 'Hey' instrument doesn't qualify as a library - unless you can have a collection of one WAV file. 

Incidentally, I found this so amusing that I decided, for one dollar, that I simply must own it :D


----------



## JamelaBanderson

WWBiscuit said:


> WWBiscuit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even by that criterion, the 'Hey' instruments doesn't qualify as a library - unless you can have a collection of one WAV file.
> 
> Incidentally, I found this so amusing that I decided, for one dollar, that I simply must own it :D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy!
Click to expand...


----------



## Groctave

Casiquire said:


> I happen to adore Berlin Brass. First off, they've recorded an extra layer which we'll get soon enough. But second, in the meantime, just use marcato patches with legato on. It seems like an odd reason to put a whole company in the "never again" category


Again, I love the low dynamics of BBR (best pianossimo brasses I've ever heared/played with for the moment) and their shorts are my go-to. But the lack of _fortissimos_ forced me to find them elsewhere, the "marcato trick" works but not everytime. The impossibility to resell the library made me feel I've been tricked.
As you can read, I wasn't aware of the coming extra fortissimo layer. It's good news and changes a lot of things! However I'm still not sure I will buy another library I couldn't resell...


----------



## doctoremmet

Groctave said:


> I'm still not sure I will buy another library I couldn't resell...


So basically that leaves you with VSL and maybe Chris Hein? If we’re talking top tier orchestral samples?


----------



## kgdrum

Groctave said:


> However I'm still not sure I will buy another library I couldn't resell...


Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective only buying libraries that allows customer reselling is extremely limitEd. From my experience most libraries do not allow reselling.


----------



## Casiquire

Groctave said:


> Again, I love the low dynamics of BBR (best pianossimo brasses I've ever heared/played with for the moment) and their shorts are my go-to. But the lack of _fortissimos_ forced me to find them elsewhere, the "marcato trick" works but not everytime. The impossibility to resell the library made me feel I've been tricked.
> As you can read, I wasn't aware of the coming extra fortissimo layer. It's good news and changes a lot of things! However I'm still not sure I will buy another library I couldn't resell...


I have bad news about how many libraries you can buy if you have that restriction. I can't wait to get the extra layer though. It'll be nice


----------



## Groctave

doctoremmet said:


> So basically that leaves you with VSL and maybe Chris Hein? If we’re talking top tier orchestral samples?





kgdrum said:


> Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective only buying libraries that allows customer reselling is extremely limitEd. From my experience most libraries do not allow reselling.





Casiquire said:


> I have bad news about how many libraries you can buy if you have that restriction. I can't wait to get the extra layer though. It'll be nice


Forgot to mention but having the option to try libraries is a game changer. Some companies allow demo trials and I had the opportunity to play with libraries at composer friends'. This way I have been able to "crash test" and then buy Hollywood Strings and Brass, Sample Modeling Brass, Audio Modeling Winds. But yes, it's bad news ^^

Luckily, I love VSL (to my taste SY Percussion is the best and I still use their VI Woodwinds) and with the libraries mentioned above, I have all I need.

Maybe being so rigid is the solution I found not to spend too much money on samples...


----------



## Hendrixon

JamelaBanderson said:


> Pfundstein HEY! Shouts
> I only paid $1 for it but it is a Kontakt instrument with moving graphics. There is ONE single WAV file that says "hey." No effects, no NKS, no transpose, no tempo sync... WTF.
> I could have duplicated my own "hey" with better satisfaction than this.
> Even $1 was too much.


Man I thought you were making this up!
I googled, it's true LOL
And it's on sale for $0.99


----------



## Hendrixon

Getsumen said:


> It's a statue in I think Russia? (Not 100% sure of the location) dedicated towards all the rats that gave their lives in medical research I believe.


Yea... I just hope that this makes the rats population proud


----------



## musicmaker9000

Hendrixon said:


> Man I thought you were making this up!
> I googled, it's true LOL
> And it's on sale for $0.99


This thread actually made me kind of want to buy it


----------



## bill5

Hendrixon said:


> Man I thought you were making this up!
> I googled, it's true LOL
> And it's on sale for $0.99


Even if I could, I'm not sure I'd want to know how much money he's made on it...


----------



## Casiquire

JamelaBanderson said:


> Pfundstein HEY! Shouts
> I only paid $1 for it but it is a Kontakt instrument with moving graphics. There is ONE single WAV file that says "hey." No effects, no NKS, no transpose, no tempo sync... WTF.
> I could have duplicated my own "hey" with better satisfaction than this.
> Even $1 was too much.


That's hilarious! To my ears though there's more than one "hey!" in there, right? That plus an animated UI, buddy that's a steal, it's worth at least 1.50


----------



## halfwalk

WWBiscuit said:


> Even by that criterion, the 'Hey' instrument doesn't qualify as a library - unless you can have a collection of one WAV file.
> 
> Incidentally, I found this so amusing that I decided, for one dollar, that I simply must own it :D


I must invoke the Sorites paradox (i.e. the Paradox of the heap) and suggest that one sample can (perhaps) be considered a collection.


----------



## bill5

I must invoke Merriam-Webster 

*Collection*

a: something collected especially an accumulation of objects gathered for study, comparison, or exhibition or as a hobby
- a collection of poems
- a collection of photographs
- a baseball card collection

b: GROUP, AGGREGATE

A single thing is not a collection. And even though a VI may have multiple WAV files, it is one instrument and generally considered a singular thing, so IMO calling it a library doesn't make sense.

But then again I never thought calling headphones "cans" made sense either, so I guess it's another one I'll just throw up my arms and move on lol

My last sidetrack on this, honest. Though anyone wishing to beat this to death further is welcome to start up a thread


----------



## Michel Simons

bill5 said:


> I must invoke Merriam-Webster
> 
> *Collection*
> 
> a: something collected especially an accumulation of objects gathered for study, comparison, or exhibition or as a hobby
> - a collection of poems
> - a collection of photographs
> - a baseball card collection
> 
> b: GROUP, AGGREGATE
> 
> A single thing is not a collection. And even though a VI may have multiple WAV files, it is one instrument and generally considered a singular thing, so IMO calling it a library doesn't make sense.
> 
> But then again I never thought calling headphones "cans" made sense either, so I guess it's another one I'll just throw up my arms and move on lol
> 
> My last sidetrack on this, honest. Though anyone wishing to beat this to death further is welcome to start up a thread


What about trousers? What is one trouser supposed to be?


----------



## halfwalk

bill5 said:


> A single thing is not a collection.


No wonder I've never been able to collect myself...


----------



## David Cuny

Michel Simons said:


> What about trousers? What is one trouser supposed to be?


Technically, a "trouser" is _"a piece of clothing covering the body from the waist to the feet, divided into separate parts for each leg and worn by both men and women."_

So they're the same as "pants", which is short for "pantaloons".

And to answer your _next _question, in _Ye Olden Days_, "pants" were made in separate parts, one for each leg. So there really is a singular "pant".

And yes, the_ "Y"_ in _"Ye"_ really is a substitute for the character _eth_, and is actually pronounced the same as _"thee"_.

You're welcome.


----------



## Casiquire

David Cuny said:


> Technically, a "trouser" is _"a piece of clothing covering the body from the waist to the feet, divided into separate parts for each leg and worn by both men and women."_
> 
> So they're the same as "pants", which is short for "pantaloons".
> 
> And to answer your _next _question, in _Ye Olden Days_, "pants" were made in separate parts, one for each leg. So there really is a singular "pant".
> 
> And yes, the_ "Y"_ in _"Ye"_ really is a substitute for the character _eth_, and is actually pronounced the same as _"thee"_.
> 
> You're welcome.




I've always found it strange that culturally, men gravitated toward pants and women went for skirts. Given, uhm, human anatomy. Let's make kilts happen!


----------



## halfwalk

Michel Simons said:


> What about trousers? What is one trouser supposed to be?


It's a thing.


----------



## dzilizzi

Casiquire said:


> I've always found it strange that culturally, men gravitated toward pants and women went for skirts. Given, uhm, human anatomy. Let's make kilts happen!


Skirts are generally harder to run in. Men were the hunter/gatherers/fighters, so the extra fabric would get in the way. Also, codpieces were used to protect certain parts of the anatomy. They worked better with pantaloons and were why the pant was initially a singular part. Plus, no zippers, so easier to tie on one leg at a time. 

I think women wore dresses because at one time, they were easier to make and you didn't have this hanging part that needed extra protection. But this is way off topic....


----------



## Hendrixon

Casiquire said:


> Let's make kilts happen!


Sure sure, that's why Scotland is such a global dominating power...


----------



## JamelaBanderson

Per the HEY! Shouts description: _This VST3 plugin delivers you a set of realistic sounding “HEY” shouts._
"Shouts" being plural, I thought I was getting a library. Hence my disappointment in only getting a single.


----------



## bill5

I'd demand a refund!


----------



## Michel Simons

David Cuny said:


> So they're the same as "pants", which is short for "pantaloons".


I thought "pants" was a way to describe my music.


----------



## Markrs

JamelaBanderson said:


> Per the HEY! Shouts description: _This VST3 plugin delivers you a set of realistic sounding “HEY” shouts._
> "Shouts" being plural, I thought I was getting a library. Hence my disappointment in only getting a single.


According to the product listing on KVR:



> This VST3 plugin delivers you a set of *106* realistic sounding *"HEY" shouts* – nothing more, nothing less.











HEY!shouts by Pfundstein Audio Plugins - Gimmick Plugin VST3 Audio Unit


This is a gimmick product. Pimp your songs with realistic hey shouts from a crowd with this mini plug-in for the price of just a coffee. C...




www.kvraudio.com





So there should be 106 wav files, unless the are oddly all in the same wav file.


----------



## bill5

This just gets sillier:

- Isn't "realistic Hey shouts" redundant? How would you make one unrealistic? By shouting "HOY?"
- Why would you bother making this VST3 vs 2? To be "cutting edge" with Hey shouts? Yeah corner that market
- How many ways can you shout "HEY?" 106? Really?


----------



## Kony

bill5 said:


> How many ways can you shout "HEY?"


Nobody does "hey" like


----------



## bill5

Ladies and gentlemen...sexual chocolate!


----------



## Alchemedia

Tralen said:


> I would say what sets people up for disappointment is exactly the marketing.


Even worse, so-called "influencers" who are clearly paid to endorse a product on YouTube while pretending otherwise.


----------



## Light and Sound

bill5 said:


> - Why would you bother making this VST3 vs 2? To be "cutting edge" with Hey shouts? Yeah corner that market


Just FYI, steinberg stopped allowing users to get vst2 licenses a few years back, so if a developer wasn't signed up back then, they are not able to release vst2, only vst3. Sorry for the OT.


----------



## bill5

Not at all, that's good to know. Thx!


----------



## Casiquire

JamelaBanderson said:


> Per the HEY! Shouts description: _This VST3 plugin delivers you a set of realistic sounding “HEY” shouts._
> "Shouts" being plural, I thought I was getting a library. Hence my disappointment in only getting a single.


The YouTube ad for it does sound like more than one Hey.


----------



## Saxer

Hey, Hey, Hey, it's a beautiful day


----------



## bill5

I guess you could say the creator of that landed a heymaker.


----------



## edhamilton

VSL Full Cube.
Disappointed because the promise (in print) was that you NEVER pay for the same samples twice.
Originally purchased in Giga but I also cross graded to ESX.
Cool - happy to pay for the programming work. Price made sense and inline with the "never pay twice for the same samples" policy.

Then came their own player.
And you had to pay for the exact same samples - again.

Great to see all the new products (new samples).

But I've never purchased anything from them again.

Superior Drummer - same thing.
They had a new version with upgrade path, that once it ended has never been offered again.
Any other product in our universe let's you upgrade when you're ready.
Toontrack makes you rebuy the whole thing once you missed the initial upgrade offer.

Never bought anything from them again.

I regret many other library purchases in that those samples didn't work out for me.
But I've bought again from those developers as its not their fault I didn't end up using the purchase.
They followed reasonable customer service.

VSL and Toontrack did not. And neither is going to get a second chance to do that again to my wallet.


----------



## bill5

I'll change my vote to 8Dio's Studio Sax. It's not godawful but I suspect I'll never use it. It just doesn't sound realistic enough IMO and the way the plugin itself is set up I didn't like at all.


----------



## Geoff Grace

Michel Simons said:


> I thought "pants" was a way to describe my music.


Are you saying that your music emulates a dog’s breathing?

Is it mostly fast-paced?

Best,

Geoff


----------



## wahey73

Alchemedia said:


> Even worse, so-called "influencers" who are clearly paid to endorse a product on YouTube while pretending otherwise.


Funny, yesterday someone bashed Alex Pfeffer (@Waywyn) on his facebook page for the same topic and even that person didn't refer to "reviewers" or "musicians" or "youtubers" or....but to "influencers". Funny coincidence  Anyhow, even I make reviews but never got paid to do so, only received some review copies once in a while but mentioned them. Even if it doesn't change a thing, if I find something negative I mention it, and if the sounds are good or bad you are able to tell for yourself.


----------



## clarkcontrol

edhamilton said:


> VSL


I too got stung with the “never pay twice” lie. Bought the exs version in 2004, was really happy with it. They leapfrogged the competition truly in those days. Incredible stuff. 

Really wish they could’ve figured out some sort of upgrade path, even if it wasn’t just a “programming the player” fee. Unfortunate. 

Also never bought from them again.


----------



## Alchemedia

wahey73 said:


> Funny, yesterday someone bashed Alex Pfeffer (@Waywyn) on his facebook page for the same topic and even that person didn't refer to "reviewers" or "musicians" or "youtubers" or....but to "influencers". Funny coincidence  Anyhow, even I make reviews but never got paid to do so, only received some review copies once in a while but mentioned them. Even if it doesn't change a thing, if I find something negative I mention it, and if the sounds are good or bad you are able to tell for yourself.


It wasn't me! I don't follow Alex Pfeffer.

Incidentally, @Cory Pelizzari recently made a video explaining how he felt uncomfortable receiving review copies and said in the future he will only review libraries he actually purchases. His reviews are excellent and I admire his candor and integrity.


----------



## Futchibon

Alchemedia said:


> Incidentally, @Cory Pelizzari recently made a video explaining how he felt uncomfortable receiving review copies and said in the future he will only review libraries he actually purchases. His reviews are excellent and I admire his candor and integrity.


Did he return his free copy of Afflatus?


----------



## dzilizzi

I think Cory tends to be fair in his reviews about both the good and bad. A free copy shouldn't change that.


----------



## el-bo

edhamilton said:


> VSL Full Cube.
> Disappointed because the promise (in print) was that you NEVER pay for the same samples twice.
> Originally purchased in Giga but I also cross graded to ESX.
> Cool - happy to pay for the programming work. Price made sense and inline with the "never pay twice for the same samples" policy.
> 
> Then came their own player.
> And you had to pay for the exact same samples - again.
> 
> Great to see all the new products (new samples).
> 
> But I've never purchased anything from them again.
> 
> Superior Drummer - same thing.
> They had a new version with upgrade path, that once it ended has never been offered again.
> Any other product in our universe let's you upgrade when you're ready.
> Toontrack makes you rebuy the whole thing once you missed the initial upgrade offer.
> 
> Never bought anything from them again.
> 
> I regret many other library purchases in that those samples didn't work out for me.
> But I've bought again from those developers as its not their fault I didn't end up using the purchase.
> They followed reasonable customer service.
> 
> VSL and Toontrack did not. And neither is going to get a second chance to do that again to my wallet.


To be fair to VSL, you paid thrice. Were I the judge, I’d rule in their favour  

And that whole SD3 upgrade bullshit is the reason I’d never go anywhere near Toontrack 💩💩


----------



## Futchibon

dzilizzi said:


> I think Cory tends to be fair in his reviews about both the good and bad. A free copy shouldn't change that.


You're clearly not aware of his vendetta against 8Dio who he has cruelly called 'H8Dio' and apparently refuses to review any more of their products.

And any composer who calls Tundra just 'OK' is hard to take seriously.


----------



## MaxOctane

Futchibon said:


> You're clearly not aware of his vendetta against 8Dio who he has cruelly called 'H8Dio' and apparently refuses to review any more of their products.
> 
> And any composer who calls Tundra just 'OK' is hard to take seriously.


Hey, can we please just stop with this topic? You're singling out a forum member, completely unnecessarily. There's no need, and VI-C threads quickly spiral into total shit-shows when people start expressive their negative opinion of other members. So, please, let's just not.


----------



## ism

Futchibon said:


> You're clearly not aware of his vendetta against 8Dio who he has cruelly called 'H8Dio' and apparently refuses to review any more of their products.
> 
> And any composer who calls Tundra just 'OK' is hard to take seriously.


It depends on whether he's trying to be a critic, in which case "not my thing" isn't the same as "horrible and disappointing library", or whether he's trying to be a Youtuber, in which case "not my thing" is exactly the same as "horrible and disappointing library".


----------



## ism

MaxOctane said:


> Hey, can we please just stop with this topic? You're singling out a forum member, completely unnecessarily. There's no need, and VI-C threads quickly spiral into total shit-shows when people start expressive their negative opinion of other members. So, please, let's just not.


I kind of agree with you here. But I also think that a great deal of confusion in notions of "impartiality" in sample library reviews is a part of the problem. And the uncritical veneration of certain reviewers as "impartial" (as opposed to critical, which is kind of the missing concept in sample library reviewing) is a part of the problem. 

I really like Cory, and his reviews. But I also think that uncritical veneration of impartiality of some people and not others is also a source of tensions that could be avoided.

By which I mean, there's got to be a way to make such critiques politely.


----------



## MaxOctane

ism said:


> By which I mean, there's got to be a way to make such critiques politely.


For starters, simply not singling people out. Then it becomes personal.


----------



## Futchibon

MaxOctane said:


> Hey, can we please just stop with this topic? You're singling out a forum member, completely unnecessarily. There's no need, and VI-C threads quickly spiral into total shit-shows when people start expressive their negative opinion of other members. So, please, let's just not.





ism said:


> I kind of agree with you here. But I also think that a great deal of confusion in notions of "impartiality" in sample library reviews is a part of the problem. And the uncritical veneration of certain reviewers as "impartial" (as opposed to critical, which is kind of the missing concept in sample library reviewing) is a part of the problem.
> 
> I really like Cory, and his reviews. But I also think that uncritical veneration of impartiality of some people and not others is also a source of tensions that could be avoided.
> 
> By which I mean, there's got to be a way to make such critiques politely.


Points taken, but how are fans of 8Dio, or worse, 8Dio staff themselves, meant to take your comment Max? Cory called 8Dio H8Dio, there is no contesting that. If he apologised that would be a different story. Troels and others don't deserve that.


----------



## Futchibon

MaxOctane said:


> For starters, simply not singling people out. Then it becomes personal.


I wonder how Troels feels about being called 'H8Dio'. Surely that's pesonal?


----------



## ism

Futchibon said:


> Points taken, but how are fans of 8Dio, or worse, 8Dio staff themselves, meant to take your comment Max? Cory called 8Dio H8Dio, there is no contesting that. If he apologised that would be a different story. Troels and others don't deserve that.


Fair.


----------



## MaxOctane

Futchibon said:


> Points taken, but how are fans of 8Dio, or worse, 8Dio staff themselves, meant to take your comment Max? Cory called 8Dio H8Dio, there is no contesting that. If he apologised that would be a different story. Troels and others don't deserve that.





Futchibon said:


> I wonder how Troels feels about being called 'H8Dio'. Surely that's pesonal?


I didn't see Cory say that anywhere in this thread. I've watched a bunch of his reviews and never heard the one where apparently he said that. So there is no need to bring that negativity --and call him out personally-- in this thread, just because his name was mentioned.

Anyway, I'll follow my own advice and this will the last opinion I share on this topic here. Thanks for at least hearing me out though


----------



## musicmaker9000

Futchibon said:


> I wonder how Troels feels about being called 'H8Dio'. Surely that's pesonal?


"H8dio"? 
I don't get it?
Hey - dio? Hate - io?


----------



## ism

Futchibon said:


> I wonder how Troels feels about being called 'H8Dio'. Surely that's pesonal?


Well this is itself kind of a venting thread, and venting over buyers remorse is a valid thing.


My deepest, bitterest regrets, come from 8dio libraries (though not recently). And lovely and talented guy Troels is (I also have 8dio libraries that fill me with inexpressible joy), 8dio marketing has really not always been beyond criticism - there are legitimate issues that at the very least merit a bit of venting.

So I don' think that the imperative of respecting Troels as a member of this community should uncritically shut down legitimate critique of 8dio marketing either, anymore that the equally important imperative of respecting Corey and his work deserves blanket immunity from the kind of critiques you make on his critical method.

But I do think there's a middle ground where we can make careful distinctions between attacking individuals and legitimate, respectful critique.

(Which I think is kind of your point also, so hopefully this is adds some texture?)


----------



## Casiquire

If you think someone's unnecessarily cruel toward a company, being unnecessarily cruel to that person doesn't fix it. Actually we have it totally backwards: it's way worse to single out an individual than a company. Given 8dio's early days, I'm willing to bet his criticism went much deeper than what Cory is being criticized for now.


----------



## Alchemedia

dzilizzi said:


> I think Cory tends to be fair in his reviews about both the good and bad. A free copy shouldn't change that.


I obviously can't speak for Cory--I don't even know him personally, however I believe he was implying he felt somewhat pressured, whether subconsciously or otherwise, to favor companies in return for review copies. It is clearly apparent certain YouTube "influencers" are easily persuaded. I think this is a valid discussion particularly on a site such as this.


----------



## feck

Spitfire Audio's The Grange is still the worst library I've ever bought. Not only does it play clunky as hell in Kontakt, but the fact that every crash cymbal has a kick drum baked into it because of their flimsy excuse that the drummer told them "I don't ever hit a cymbal without hitting a kick drum with it" and they accepted it/defended it, still blows my mind as the dumbest sample set decision I can think of.


----------



## Alchemedia

ism said:


> My deepest, bitterest regrets, come from 8dio libraries (though not recently).


I believe their ballistic impulse shopping inducing marketing tactics contribute to this. Ditto Waves & PA. Just like shopping at the Dollar Store when you get home and realize you purchased a bunch of crap you didn't need primarily because it was incredibly cheap.


----------



## dzilizzi

Futchibon said:


> You're clearly not aware of his vendetta against 8Dio who he has cruelly called 'H8Dio' and apparently refuses to review any more of their products.
> 
> And any composer who calls Tundra just 'OK' is hard to take seriously.


Did not know this. I will leave it at that.


----------



## Jdiggity1

Shitfire, Sinnersamples, Orchestral Fools, Snotdog Samples....
There. Now that we've levelled the playing field, we can move on.


----------



## Alchemedia

Futchibon said:


> You're clearly not aware of his vendetta against 8Dio who he has cruelly called 'H8Dio' and apparently refuses to review any more of their products.
> 
> And any composer who calls Tundra just 'OK' is hard to take seriously.


I'm not sure what your problem is with Corey, however, his opinions are of course subjective as are yours and deeming something "OK" is hardly outrageous or controversial. Why should he feel the need to review 8DIO products if he isn't fond of them? Besides, I don't think Troels needs help marketing.


----------



## Flintpope

tsk said:


> What would be your most disappointing library purchase of 2017?
> 
> I would say mine is probably Output's complete bundle. I just don't use it anywhere near as much as I was expecting.


2021 now... Straylight for Kontakt. I was lured in by the videos, bought it and was totally amazed by the technicality of it then never used it... it just doesn't act like an instrument, rather a set of one note sound fx (bit like a lot of my Reaktor ensembles...)


----------



## Flintpope

And of course EQUATOR. What an expensive waste of time.


----------



## Flintpope

catsass said:


> collecting binary dust.


Brilliant!


----------



## Alchemedia

ism said:


> It depends on whether he's trying to be a *critic*, in which case "not my thing" isn't the same as "horrible and disappointing library", or whether he's trying to be a *Youtuber*, in which case "not my thing" is exactly the same as "horrible and disappointing library".


It's all subjective on YouTube where everyone is a self-proclaimed authority and discerning between "critic" and "YouTuber/influencer" when most are selling an illusion is a challenge.


----------



## Alchemedia

Flintpope said:


> And of course EQUATOR. What an expensive waste of time.


Equator 2? Did Roli's demise influence your opinion?


----------



## Hendrixon

Futchibon said:


> And any composer who calls Tundra just 'OK' is hard to take seriously.


----------



## Alchemedia

Hendrixon said:


>


Not that there's anything wrong with that.


----------



## bill5

Futchibon said:


> Points taken, but how are fans of 8Dio, or worse, 8Dio staff themselves, meant to take your comment Max? Cory called 8Dio H8Dio, there is no contesting that.


That doesn't mean it should be repeated elsewhere (like here). No offense, I just agree with max. Focusing on an individual this way just invites conflict and hissy fits, and God knows our society is overflowing with those as it is. Can we get back to disappointing library purchases?


----------



## MaxOctane

One of my most disappointing (well, dumbest) purchases, which was no fault of the library itself: Spitfire had a holiday sale on their original Evo Grids 1-4. I still don't know what the hell I was smoking, but I thought "Eh, I'll probably want these someday, may as well grab them on sale!"

So I just dropped $800 on those 4 Evos and Harp Swarm without hardly watching any walkthroughs... and I don't think I've spent more than 5 minutes with any of them. 🤦


----------



## Jdiggity1

MaxOctane said:


> One of my most disappointing (well, dumbest) purchases, which was no fault of the library itself: Spitfire had a holiday sale on their original Evo Grids 1-4. I still don't know what the hell I was smoking, but I thought "Eh, I'll probably want these someday, may as well grab them on sale!"
> 
> So I just dropped $800 on those 4 Evos and Harp Swarm without hardly watching any walkthroughs... and I don't think I've spent more than 5 minutes with any of them. 🤦


I would say most of my disappointment is also self-inflicted, like your example.
Probably 50% of my purchases end with me receiving the "Thank you for your purchase!" email, followed swiftly by a heavy sense of doubt over what I've just done.


----------



## Alchemedia

​


----------



## ism

Yes, I suppose at the extreme libertarian capitalist end of the spectrum the customer is always wrong.


----------



## Casiquire

Jdiggity1 said:


> I would say most of my disappointment is also self-inflicted, like your example.
> Probably 50% of my purchases end with me receiving the "Thank you for your purchase!" email, followed swiftly by a heavy sense of doubt over what I've just done.


I only had that once with MSS. Considered, for a moment, seeing if i could return it before downloading, too. Boy am i glad i didn't!


----------



## Futchibon

MaxOctane said:


> Anyway, I'll follow my own advice and this will the last opinion I share on this topic here. Thanks for at least hearing me out though


I'll follow your good advice too and leave it at that


----------



## Futchibon

feck said:


> Spitfire Audio's The Grange is still the worst library I've ever bought. Not only does it play clunky as hell in Kontakt, but the fact that every crash cymbal has a kick drum baked into it because of their flimsy excuse that the drummer told them "I don't ever hit a cymbal without hitting a kick drum with it" and they accepted it/defended it, still blows my mind as the dumbest sample set decision I can think of.


That would be Roger  Thanks for the feedback, I've had it on my wishlist for a while now, although prefer playing EZD2 on edrums than finger drumming, but Queen is one of my favourite bands and RHCP are great too, if a little hit and miss.

Does it sound like Chad and Roger's 'sound' though? Still interested if it goes crazy low during BF.


----------



## Futchibon

Hendrixon said:


>


Hey, don't diss me, I've seen the way you dance


----------



## MaxOctane

Futchibon said:


> Hey, don't diss me, I've seen the way you dance


Oh that ain't dancing, Sally!


----------



## Flintpope

Alchemedia said:


> Equator 2? Did Roli's demise influence your opinion?


I didn't know Roli had demised. I just find the instrument hard to program and samey sounding whereas Pigments does it all much better for less cost


----------



## soniccouture

Selfinflicted said:


> MOST RECENT disappointment - Sonic Couture's Ensemblia 2 - Orchestral and also Ensemblia2 Percussion. Demos seemed decent at the time, in a 'one button to rule them all' sort of load of BS way. Thing is I always hate those libraries. I much prefer to orchestrate myself, etc. And like life, I was probably in some way intoxicated with some distant fantasy, like having a cue sound good without working hard for it. So, yup - that's on me.
> 
> I instantly regretted it after downloading. I had even asked myself "really, another library?... just because there's a sale going?....dude...." And boom - insta-library-regret shame set in.
> 
> The thing with those libraries, you don't get much detail. If you're looking for really fast things that won't be under any sort of microscope.... meaning - no one is going to hear what you do with it at all, then this might be the library for you. But, I found the lack of dynamic layering and other details made this unusable for me.
> 
> Generally, I like Sonic Couture's stuff - at least the purchases I've made from them. These two - no, especially at that price - even with the sale going.


I'm sorry you're disappointed, but these are NOT Soniccouture products!


----------



## S4410

soniccouture said:


> I'm sorry you're disappointed, but these are NOT Soniccouture products!


Yes Ensemblia are from Cinematique Instruments, not Soniccouture


----------



## Syncopator

Tim_Wells said:


> Probably my own fault, but at the moment I'm too happy with my recent purchase of Hollywood Strings Gold.
> 
> I guess I like more of a pristine - clean-smooth-emotional string sound (whatever that means). HS has more of a chorused-phasey sound to my ears.
> 
> Maybe it will grow on me. I haven't actually used in a mix yet. And I'm sure I'll find some uses for layered in.


Did you mean to type *not* too happy? 😊


----------



## Tim_Wells

Syncopator said:


> Did you mean to type *not* too happy? 😊


Yes... I did mean... "NOT".  And b-t-w, Hollywood Strings _has_ grown on me. 

This is an example why I've become hesitant to criticize libraries. Often it's a matter of learning _how_ and _when_ to use the library.


----------



## dzilizzi

Tim_Wells said:


> Yes... I did mean... "NOT".  And b-t-w, Hollywood Strings _has_ grown on me.
> 
> This is an example why I've become hesitant to criticize libraries. Often it's a matter of learning _how_ and _when_ to use the library.


I have to agree with this. I got the Project Sam bundle in one of those NI sales. Everybody love it! Yeah, no. Weird instrument combinations. Totally unusable for me and sat for a couple years. But then I decided to try it for a project I was working on for school. Yes, the ranges are limited, but you can turn off some of the instruments. I kind of liked the sound I was getting. I use it a bit more now.


----------



## Syncopator

AEF said:


> #1 MSS
> #2 Aeria
> #3 Dimension Strings


What is "MSS"?


----------



## Syncopator

Soundbed said:


> CDT


What is "CDT"?


----------



## dzilizzi

Syncopator said:


> What is "MSS"?





Syncopator said:


> What is "CDT"?


Modern Scoring Strings - AudioBro
Contemporary Drama Toolkit - Spitfire


----------



## Syncopator

Trash Panda said:


> I wasn’t referring to the music...


Then what were you referring to? These cryptic posts aren't very helpful.


----------



## Syncopator

dzilizzi said:


> Modern Scoring Strings - AudioBro
> Contemporary Drama Toolkit - Spitfire


Thanks!


----------



## doctoremmet

@Syncopator 






Glossary of VI-C Abbreviations


AAF: Able Artist Foundation (link) AAX: Avid Audio Extension (plugin format created for Pro Tools) AB: Adventure Brass (Music Sampling) AD/AD2: Addictive Drums (XLN Audio) AI: Audio Imperia ALB1/ALB2/ALB3/etc: Albion Series (Spitfire) ALBO: Albion ONE (Spitfire) AM: Audio Modeling AMS: Aleatoric...




vi-control.net


----------



## Selfinflicted

soniccouture said:


> I'm sorry you're disappointed, but these are NOT Soniccouture products!


Yes - apologies. Cinematique Instruments. And I generally really like their products. So, no association with Soniccouture products, other than my general experience of both companies making good, often really unique, products.

Corrected in original post.


----------



## Syncopator

doctoremmet said:


> @Syncopator
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glossary of VI-C Abbreviations
> 
> 
> AAF: Able Artist Foundation (link) AAX: Avid Audio Extension (plugin format created for Pro Tools) AB: Adventure Brass (Music Sampling) AD/AD2: Addictive Drums (XLN Audio) AI: Audio Imperia ALB1/ALB2/ALB3/etc: Albion Series (Spitfire) ALBO: Albion ONE (Spitfire) AM: Audio Modeling AMS: Aleatoric...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net


Very helpful! Thanks!


----------



## kitekrazy

Not so much regretting a library but regretting I never used them. There is a time to remove old stuff from systems to make room for the next hoard.

I've removed the original Alchemy and the AIR orchestra libraries.


----------



## paulmatthew

Selfinflicted said:


> Yes - apologies. Cinematique Instruments. And I generally really like their products. So, no association with Soniccouture products, other than my general experience of both companies making good, often really unique, products.
> 
> Corrected in original post.


I get them confused with each other too.


----------



## NekujaK

I wasn't impressed by any of the Dark Horizon demos or review videos, but really like the Elysion engine, so I decided to take a chance and give it a go.

I should've listened to my initial impressions. There's just not a lot of there, there. It has some nice low textures, but I can get that from a dozen other libraries/soft synths that I already own. Dark Horizon simply doesn't add anything spectacularly new to my sonic palette.

As always YMMV.


----------



## dzilizzi

NekujaK said:


> I wasn't impressed by any of the Dark Horizon demos or review videos, but really like the Elysion engine, so I decided to take a chance and give it a go.
> 
> I should've listened to my initial impressions. There's just not a lot of there, there. It has some nice low textures, but I can get that from a dozen other libraries/soft synths that I already own. Dark Horizon simply doesn't add anything spectacularly new to my sonic palette.
> 
> As always YMMV.


Did you at least get it for free? Or something free with it?


----------



## NekujaK

dzilizzi said:


> Did you at least get it for free? Or something free with it?


Sadly no. I bought it during the initial release period last month, but at least I got a loyalty discount.

Edit: Actually, I don't think Sonuscore even did an intro price for this library, and the loyalty discount doesn't have a time limit, so I just pretty much got impatient and ended up disappointed 🤷‍♂️


----------



## QuiteAlright

My most disappointing one was 8dio Majestica. Followed by Spitfire's Earth.


----------



## Taron

Holy ...please, forgive me, if I jump on this thread without truly staying on topic, but just how freaking rich are you guys to spend hundreds on sample libraries out of impulse? I've read that so many times here (per second) that it just bubbled up within me how ...eh... guess, I should take a deep breath and congratulate you all on your seemingly unlimited funding and wished I could offer you some products, too.  
Now I must have a look at ALL their marketing campaigns to draw inspiration from!


----------



## NekujaK

Taron said:


> Holy ...please, forgive me, if I jump on this thread without truly staying on topic, but just how freaking rich are you guys to spend hundreds on sample libraries out of impulse? I've read that so many times here (per second) that it just bubbled up within me how ...eh... guess, I should take a deep breath and congratulate you all on your seemingly unlimited funding and wished I could offer you some products, too.
> Now I must have a look at ALL their marketing campaigns to draw inspiration from!


Can't speak for others, but I allocate a monthly budget for plugins/libraries. I often end up going over budget, but having a budgeted goal at least helps me make some tough calls on more expensive items.

Music is my hobby and also my paying side gig, so allocating money to it is no different than other folks who spend money on golf, cars, bar hopping, or whatever their passion may be.


----------



## SandChannel

Taron said:


> Holy ...please, forgive me, if I jump on this thread without truly staying on topic, but just how freaking rich are you guys to spend hundreds on sample libraries out of impulse? I've read that so many times here (per second) that it just bubbled up within me how ...eh... guess, I should take a deep breath and congratulate you all on your seemingly unlimited funding and wished I could offer you some products, too.
> Now I must have a look at ALL their marketing campaigns to draw inspiration from!


I would suggest marrying an accountant. Worked for me.


----------



## Trash Panda

Taron said:


> Holy ...please, forgive me, if I jump on this thread without truly staying on topic, but just how freaking rich are you guys to spend hundreds on sample libraries out of impulse? I've read that so many times here (per second) that it just bubbled up within me how ...eh... guess, I should take a deep breath and congratulate you all on your seemingly unlimited funding and wished I could offer you some products, too.
> Now I must have a look at ALL their marketing campaigns to draw inspiration from!


I would imagine most who are hobbyists are far enough along in their careers to have more disposable income for their passions (or don't mind taking on credit card debt).

Most professionals probably view libraries as a business expense/investment.


----------



## AMBi

Pretty much anything I bought from Native Instruments, Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Series, Orchestral Tools, Performance Samples, Embertone, VSL, Audio Imperia, Cinesamples, Westwood, Best Service, Strezov Sampling, East West, Impact Soundworks, 8dio, Zero-G, Musical Sampling, Eduardo Tarilonte, Rast Sound, Virharmonic, Realitone, E-Instruments, Heavyocity, Pianobook (they ripped me off the most), Sonuscore, Orange Tree Samples, Nami Audio, Ben Osterhouse, Emergence Audio, Big Fish Audio, Light and Sound, Amplesound, Soniccouture, Auddict, Sonixenema, In Session Audio, AVA, Vir2, Ilyia Efimov, Artistry Audio, Fracture Sounds, Soundiron, Indiginus, Evolution Series, IAMLAMPREY Slate and Ash, Wavelet Audio, Naroth Audio, Felt Instruments, Sample Logic, Audiobro, Sonokinetic, Black Octopus, Xperimenta Project, Chocolate Audio, Karoryfer, Frozen Plain, Initial Audio, Lunacy Audio, Muze, Red Room Audio, Project SAM, Simple Sam, Complicated Sam, Sampletraxx, Sonic Atoms, Arturia, Ujam, Bela D Media, Camel Audio, Crocus Soundware, Versilian Studios, Triple Spiral Audio, Chris Hein, Dream Audio Tools, Sound Aesthetic Sampling, Audiofier, XSample, Organic Samples, Riot Audio, Soundmagic, Sonic Zest, Karanyi Sounds, Man Makes Noise, Audio Modeling, Spectrasonics, Ink Audio, HAVE Audio, Sudden Audio, Wide Blue Sound, Three Body Tech, Audio Ollie, Minimal Tonal, Rawbit Audio and especially Pulsesetter Sounds for putting Dystopian Guitars on sale when I really shouldn't be spending money.

Would *never* buy from them again.

(Fluffy Audio is good though)


----------



## chillbot

AMBi said:


> Pretty much anything I bought from Native Instruments, Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Series, Orchestral Tools, Performance Samples, Embertone, VSL, Audio Imperia, Cinesamples, Westwood, Best Service, Strezov Sampling, East West, Impact Soundworks, 8dio, Zero-G, Musical Sampling, Eduardo Tarilonte, Rast Sound, Virharmonic, Realitone, E-Instruments, Heavyocity, Pianobook (they ripped me off the most), Sonuscore, Orange Tree Samples, Nami Audio, Ben Osterhouse, Emergence Audio, Big Fish Audio, Light and Sound, Amplesound, Soniccouture, Auddict, Sonixenema, In Session Audio, AVA, Vir2, Ilyia Efimov, Artistry Audio, Fracture Sounds, Soundiron, Indiginus, Evolution Series, IAMLAMPREY Slate and Ash, Wavelet Audio, Naroth Audio, Felt Instruments, Sample Logic, Audiobro, Sonokinetic, Black Octopus, Xperimenta Project, Chocolate Audio, Karoryfer, Frozen Plain, Initial Audio, Lunacy Audio, Muze, Red Room Audio, Project SAM, Simple Sam, Complicated Sam, Sampletraxx, Sonic Atoms, Arturia, Ujam, Bela D Media, Camel Audio, Crocus Soundware, Versilian Studios, Triple Spiral Audio, Chris Hein, Dream Audio Tools, Sound Aesthetic Sampling, Audiofier, XSample, Organic Samples, Riot Audio, Soundmagic, Sonic Zest, Karanyi Sounds, Man Makes Noise, Audio Modeling, Spectrasonics, Ink Audio, HAVE Audio, Sudden Audio, Wide Blue Sound, Three Body Tech, Audio Ollie, Minimal Tonal, Rawbit Audio and especially Pulsesetter Sounds for putting Dystopian Guitars on sale when I really shouldn't be spending money.
> 
> Would *never* buy from them again.


How do you feel about Botdog Samples ?


----------



## AMBi

chillbot said:


> How do you feel about Botdog Samples ?


Getting the Botdog Piano during the $20 sale and those beautiful texture layers have them on my good side. Didn’t want them to get caught in the crossfire


----------



## berto

AMBi said:


> Pretty much anything I bought from Native Instruments, Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Series, Orchestral Tools, Performance Samples, Embertone, VSL, Audio Imperia, Cinesamples, Westwood, Best Service, Strezov Sampling, East West, Impact Soundworks, 8dio, Zero-G, Musical Sampling, Eduardo Tarilonte, Rast Sound, Virharmonic, Realitone, E-Instruments, Heavyocity, Pianobook (they ripped me off the most), Sonuscore, Orange Tree Samples, Nami Audio, Ben Osterhouse, Emergence Audio, Big Fish Audio, Light and Sound, Amplesound, Soniccouture, Auddict, Sonixenema, In Session Audio, AVA, Vir2, Ilyia Efimov, Artistry Audio, Fracture Sounds, Soundiron, Indiginus, Evolution Series, IAMLAMPREY Slate and Ash, Wavelet Audio, Naroth Audio, Felt Instruments, Sample Logic, Audiobro, Sonokinetic, Black Octopus, Xperimenta Project, Chocolate Audio, Karoryfer, Frozen Plain, Initial Audio, Lunacy Audio, Muze, Red Room Audio, Project SAM, Simple Sam, Complicated Sam, Sampletraxx, Sonic Atoms, Arturia, Ujam, Bela D Media, Camel Audio, Crocus Soundware, Versilian Studios, Triple Spiral Audio, Chris Hein, Dream Audio Tools, Sound Aesthetic Sampling, Audiofier, XSample, Organic Samples, Riot Audio, Soundmagic, Sonic Zest, Karanyi Sounds, Man Makes Noise, Audio Modeling, Spectrasonics, Ink Audio, HAVE Audio, Sudden Audio, Wide Blue Sound, Three Body Tech, Audio Ollie, Minimal Tonal, Rawbit Audio and especially Pulsesetter Sounds for putting Dystopian Guitars on sale when I really shouldn't be spending money.
> 
> Would *never* buy from them again.
> 
> (Fluffy Audio is good though)


i might be wrong but maybe there is a hint of a joke somewhere in there...?


----------



## AndrewS

QuiteAlright said:


> Followed by Spitfire's Earth.


There's one patch I use in everything to double with organic strings when I need to lightly dirty them up, but apart from that I haven't been able to find anything else useful in that library.


----------



## b_elliott

AMBi said:


> Pretty much anything I bought from Native Instruments, Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Series, Orchestral Tools, Performance Samples, Embertone, VSL, Audio Imperia, Cinesamples, Westwood, Best Service, Strezov Sampling, East West, Impact Soundworks, 8dio, Zero-G, Musical Sampling, Eduardo Tarilonte, Rast Sound, Virharmonic, Realitone, E-Instruments, Heavyocity, Pianobook (they ripped me off the most), Sonuscore, Orange Tree Samples, Nami Audio, Ben Osterhouse, Emergence Audio, Big Fish Audio, Light and Sound, Amplesound, Soniccouture, Auddict, Sonixenema, In Session Audio, AVA, Vir2, Ilyia Efimov, Artistry Audio, Fracture Sounds, Soundiron, Indiginus, Evolution Series, IAMLAMPREY Slate and Ash, Wavelet Audio, Naroth Audio, Felt Instruments, Sample Logic, Audiobro, Sonokinetic, Black Octopus, Xperimenta Project, Chocolate Audio, Karoryfer, Frozen Plain, Initial Audio, Lunacy Audio, Muze, Red Room Audio, Project SAM, Simple Sam, Complicated Sam, Sampletraxx, Sonic Atoms, Arturia, Ujam, Bela D Media, Camel Audio, Crocus Soundware, Versilian Studios, Triple Spiral Audio, Chris Hein, Dream Audio Tools, Sound Aesthetic Sampling, Audiofier, XSample, Organic Samples, Riot Audio, Soundmagic, Sonic Zest, Karanyi Sounds, Man Makes Noise, Audio Modeling, Spectrasonics, Ink Audio, HAVE Audio, Sudden Audio, Wide Blue Sound, Three Body Tech, Audio Ollie, Minimal Tonal, Rawbit Audio and especially Pulsesetter Sounds for putting Dystopian Guitars on sale when I really shouldn't be spending money.


My my. I'm guessing you have been typing since 2018 to get all that down!


----------



## kgdrum

b_elliott said:


> My my. I'm guessing you have been typing since 2018 to get all that down!




No I think Ambi just cut and pasted @doctoremmet purchases from March.


----------



## Trash Panda

Syncopator said:


> Then what were you referring to? These cryptic posts aren't very helpful.


Juvenile out-of-context-based humor. Pay it no mind.


----------



## doctoremmet

kgdrum said:


> No I think Ambi just cut and pasted most of @doctoremmet purchases from March.


Hahaha. But rest assured, I maybe own 1% of stuff by vendors on that list. See, I only buy libraries I actually like. And so far I’ve not been really disappointed…


----------



## Trash Panda

@doctoremmet is one of those people who has way more room in his heart for love than your average human. The world would be a better place if we could all be a little more like Temme.


----------



## doctoremmet

Trash Panda said:


> @doctoremmet is one of those people who has way more room in his heart for love than your average human. The world would be a better place if we could all be a little more like Temme.


This is the kindest way I have ever seen someone describe the common knowledge that a) I have no spine and b) my ears suck 😂❤️


----------



## kgdrum

doctoremmet said:


> This is the kindest way I have ever seen someone describe the common knowledge that a) I have no spine and b) my ears suck 😂❤️




So Temme you really don’t mind when I refer to you as that spineless deaf Dutch bastard? 👍


----------



## dzilizzi

SandChannel said:


> I would suggest marrying an accountant. Worked for me.


or being one.....


----------



## doctoremmet

kgdrum said:


> So Temme you really don’t mind when i refer to you as that spineless deaf Dutch bastard? 👍


Dad? Is that you?

BTW… I am also a CPA, no kidding.


----------



## kgdrum

Wow! I’m surrounded by CPA’s with uncontrollable GAS ,yesterday was domesday tax day here in the States and somehow I managed to survive! 🤪


----------



## b_elliott

Likely too obvious, but the composer skillset tilts the table on lots of the lame ducks listed. 
Just now I can't remember off the top of my head the song title, but Zappa wrote a song using IMO the cheesiest lame-ass'd strings imaginable but they worked perfectly. My guess, they likely were a finger to the SOBs who gave him a rough time early on. 
Talent. There is that aspect to consider.


----------



## SandChannel

dzilizzi said:


> or being one.....


True, but that seems like a lot of work at this point in life.


----------



## dzilizzi

b_elliott said:


> Talent.


I've been looking for that library. I swear, it is never on sale.


----------



## Kony

doctoremmet said:


> BTW… I am also a CPA, no kidding.


An accountant you say? I've heard accounting is a bit boring, have you considered being a lion tamer? 

What accountancy does to people:


----------



## kgdrum

doctoremmet said:


> Dad? Is that you?
> 
> BTW… I am also a CPA, no kidding.




Dad? I actually prefer keeping this a bit formal, please refer to me as : “your Daddy!”


----------



## doctoremmet

Kony said:


> An accountant you say? I've heard accounting is a bit boring, have you considered being a lion tamer?
> 
> What accountancy does to people:



My name means lion tamer in Dutch


----------



## SandChannel

My name means Dutch Lion Tamer in Lion. Rawr.


----------



## doctoremmet




----------



## BasariStudios

Forgot the name of the Developer but something called London Symphonic Strings or something like that. I think Aria Sounds...oh, and Kirk Hunter Ensemble something.


----------



## WinterEmerald

BT Phobos by Spitfire (and BT). Worst UI I've ever seen for a library and will totally slow down your workflow.


----------



## AnhrithmonGelasma

Flintpope said:


> I didn't know Roli had demised. I just find the instrument hard to program and samey sounding whereas Pigments does it all much better for less cost


You did mean Equator, not Equator 2, right? Huge difference. 

Equator is great with the Seaboard / Seaboard Block. And uses a wide variety of samples, though no multisamples. Never found it hard to program, though the synthesis options are limited.

Equator 2 has extensive multisamples (with round robins), wavetables, many different types of synthesis (granular, etc.), and a lot more variety....


----------



## jamie8

For me it’s been Spitfire symphonic motions ….bit of a pain in the ass to use doesn’t always sync up and the pegboard thingy is really small …,and you need to be able to resize it Could use more timing options as well . … wish they would update it.


----------



## PaulieDC

doctoremmet said:


> Dad? Is that you?
> 
> BTW… I am also a CPA, no kidding.


Wow! A CPA seeing an entire sea of VI-C members draining financial accounts buying libraries out the wazoo, and yet you remain so sweet-natured. I'm thinking Nobel Peace prize candidate.


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

The SINE versions of Berlin Orchestra must be my most disappointing purchase now. The disappointment has kept building with it due to:

1) the Kontakt versions being relatively great 
2) the SINE migration introducing various bugs
3) the SINE player having many shortcomings
4) OT essentially paying us lip service by saying they care but still not fixing or improving anything
5) OT refusing to allow SINE buyers to purchase the Kontakt versions (but allowing _new_ Kontakt buyers to purchase the SINE versions for a small fee).

If the samples weren't good, it wouldn't be as disappointing. The response from OT has been the most disappointing thing about it.


----------



## b_elliott

dzilizzi said:


> I've been looking for that library. I swear, it is never on sale.


 As noted in Webster's Dictionary, _Talent_: In ancient Greece, that was their unit for weight, as well as their denomination. Hebrew got on the same page having _talent_ as a denomination worth 10000 gold shekels. 
Enough talent to cover part of Doc's vst collection.


----------



## jazzman7

I have found that my very first hearing impressions often are more correct than any other measure for me. 

Too many times I have not been really drawn in the first moments of hearing a VI, but watching walkthroughs and liking the the engineering of the instrument along with pricing or some "Sales" deadline caused me to buy. I usually wished I would have deferred to my first impressions.

The only exception to this so far has been CSS. It was the mirror opposite experience with this. I did not initially like the tone, especially in shootouts against others, but over time I began hearing finished work by various members here using it and began to re-think. It's now my main workhorse String VI and have have quite a few. Pacific might be it's successor. Some day...some day


----------



## dzilizzi

jazzman7 said:


> I have found that my very first hearing impressions often are more correct than any other measure for me.
> 
> Too many times I have not been really drawn in the first moments of hearing a VI, but watching walkthroughs and liking the the engineering of the instrument along with pricing or some "Sales" deadline caused me to buy. I usually wished I would have deferred to my first impressions.
> 
> The only exception to this so far has been CSS. It was the mirror opposite experience with this. I did not initially like the tone, especially in shootouts against others, but over time I began hearing finished work by various members here using it and began to re-think. It's now my main workhorse String VI and have have quite a few. Pacific might be it's successor. Some day...some day


A lot of times I listen to walkthroughs while working. If it doesn't cause me to stop and think "oh, I like that sound," it usually isn't worth getting for me.


----------



## jazzman7

dzilizzi said:


> A lot of times I listen to walkthroughs while working. If it doesn't cause me to stop and think "oh, I like that sound," it usually isn't worth getting for me.


Great idea! These days I'm more or less just filling holes in the template anyway. So If I can't justify the instrument for a specific purpose I will take a pass. Especially at some of the prices they're asking. Which is terribly boring, I know!


----------



## Flintpope

AnhrithmonGelasma said:


> You did mean Equator, not Equator 2, right? Huge difference.
> 
> Equator is great with the Seaboard / Seaboard Block. And uses a wide variety of samples, though no multisamples. Never found it hard to program, though the synthesis options are limited.
> 
> Equator 2 has extensive multisamples (with round robins), wavetables, many different types of synthesis (granular, etc.), and a lot more variety....


I meant Equator 2 but OK, I have worked it out now and it's not bad! I still prefer Pigments.


----------



## holywilly

Regret getting 8Dio Claire bundle. Why on earth each note has its pan position?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The SINE versions of Berlin Orchestra must be my most disappointing purchase now. The disappointment has kept building with it due to:
> 
> 1) the Kontakt versions being relatively great
> 2) the SINE migration introducing various bugs
> 3) the SINE player having many shortcomings
> 4) OT essentially paying us lip service by saying they care but still not fixing or improving anything
> 5) OT refusing to allow SINE buyers to purchase the Kontakt versions (but allowing _new_ Kontakt buyers to purchase the SINE versions for a small fee).
> 
> If the samples weren't good, it wouldn't be as disappointing. The response from OT has been the most disappointing thing about it.


When I bought BS, it was already on SINE, and I totally love both the player itself and BS. I suppose I'm a prime example of the term "ignorance is bliss".


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Jeremy Spencer said:


> When I bought BS, it was already on SINE, and I totally love both the player itself and BS. I suppose I'm a prime example of the term "ignorance is bliss".


I find SINE the worst sample player out there, by a large margin. Each time I use it, I discover something else that’s ridiculously poorly implemented.


----------



## GMT

Every library I have ever bought sucks. They are all dog poo and I hate them.

ps. Having one of those days when I can't write anything that I like and am questioning my entire life. It happens.


----------



## aeliron

berto said:


> i might be wrong but maybe there is a hint of a joke somewhere in there...?


I missed it at first. Second to last paragraph. But gold once you see it!


----------



## aeliron

kgdrum said:


> Dad? I actually prefer keeping this a bit formal, please refer to me as : “your Daddy!”


Yo mama!


----------



## aeliron

PaulieDC said:


> Wow! A CPA seeing an entire sea of VI-C members draining financial accounts buying libraries out the wazoo, and yet you remain so sweet-natured. I'm thinking Nobel Peace prize candidate.


CPA for VSL and Spitfire.


----------



## Robert_G

GMT said:


> Every library I have ever bought sucks. They are all dog poo and I hate them.


I agree. None of my libraries allow me to transport the midi from my brain straight into Cubase. Even worse is that my brain wants to do every instrument simultaneously into a finished arrangement. Even better would be if the libraries would automatically do all the mastering and mixing for me too.
Until my libraries can do that....they are all a complete fail.

Edit: I might actually make some money if my libraries did that.


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

Robert_G said:


> I agree. None of my libraries allow me to transport the midi from my brain straight into Cubase. Even worse is that my brain wants to do every instrument simultaneously into a finished arrangement. Even better would be if the libraries would automatically do all the mastering and mixing for me too.
> Until my libraries can do that....they are all a complete fail.
> 
> Edit: I might actually make some money if my libraries did that.


This is a good reason for you to invest in Spitfire libraries, that's what you're missing


----------



## Robert_G

Jeremy Spencer said:


> This is a good reason for you to invest in Spitfire libraries, that's what you're missing


Spitfire libraries don't work like they should at the best of times


----------



## SupremeFist

Robert_G said:


> Spitfire libraries don't work like they should at the best of times


They do for me 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## CT

As someone who wants his music to sound as if it is performed by bored players being recorded from the cheap seats, I too have been highly let down by my Spitfire experience.


----------



## VVEremita

Jeremy Spencer said:


> This is a good reason for you to invest in Spitfire libraries, that's what you're missing


Upon further consideration: My thoughts are indeed sometimes slow(ly evolving) and repeat themselves after a certain amount of time, so Evos might just do the trick.


----------



## Futchibon

Robert_G said:


> Spitfire libraries don't work like they should at the best of times





Michaelt said:


> As someone who wants his music to sound as if it is performed by bored players being recorded from the cheap seats, I too have been highly let down by my Spitfire experience.


Seems to work for Carlos!


----------



## jazzman7

GMT said:


> Every library I have ever bought sucks. They are all dog poo and I hate them.
> 
> ps. Having one of those days when I can't write anything that I like and am questioning my entire life. It happens.


Ha! I've NEVER felt like that!


----------



## ALittleNightMusic

Futchibon said:


> Seems to work for Carlos!



Love Carlos - he’s so generous with his knowledge and presents it so well. He should teach (/s he’s a professor).

For all the complaints about SSS missing some shorts (which is true), he shared his mock-up of the Main Title from The Queen’s Gambit (on a Zoom) and it is all based on fast string ostinatos using shorts, so don’t think folks should believe they can’t achieve short strings with SSS.


----------



## Daren Audio

jamie8 said:


> For me it’s been Spitfire symphonic motions ….bit of a pain in the ass to use doesn’t always sync up and the pegboard thingy is really small …,and you need to be able to resize it Could use more timing options as well . … wish they would update it.


So far I've been able to get by and made 76 custom presets from Symphonic Motions ranging from Alfred Hitchcock to Henry Mancini styles.

I, like many of us, struggle to view Kontakt's GUI, especially when developers use tiny fonts.
And it doesn't help if you're on a 40" 4K HDTV which makes everything even smaller.
What I've done is use OBS (free by the way) side by side with Kontakt. 
OBS acts as a "magnifying glass" to enlarge/crop/re-size the Kontakt GUI for better workflow.


----------



## jazzman7

Daren Audio said:


> So far I've been able to get by and made 76 custom presets from Symphonic Motions ranging from Alfred Hitchcock to Henry Mancini styles.
> 
> I, like many of us, struggle to view Kontakt's GUI, especially when developers use tiny fonts.
> And it doesn't help if you're on a 40" 4K HDTV which makes everything even smaller.
> What I've done is use OBS (free by the way) side by side with Kontakt.
> OBS acts as a "magnifying glass" to enlarge/crop/re-size the Kontakt GUI for better workflow.


Interesting! Link?


----------



## Jeremy Spencer

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Love Carlos - he’s so generous with his knowledge and presents it so well. He should teach (/s he’s a professor).
> 
> For all the complaints about SSS missing some shorts (which is true), he shared his mock-up of the Main Title from The Queen’s Gambit (on a Zoom) and it is all based on fast string ostinatos using shorts, so don’t think folks should believe they can’t achieve short strings with SSS.


True, but he's using the spiccatos which are perfect for that sequence. SSS really does need recorded staccatos.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

It seems like a weird decision to omit a basic articulation such as Staccato in favor of all manner of specialty articulations.

(I'm aware of the Time Stretch patches)


----------



## Daren Audio

jazzman7 said:


> Interesting! Link?








Open Broadcaster Software | OBS


OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) is free and open source software for video recording and live streaming. Stream to Twitch, YouTube and many other providers or record your own videos with high quality H264 / AAC encoding.




obsproject.com


----------



## jazzman7

Daren Audio said:


> Open Broadcaster Software | OBS
> 
> 
> OBS (Open Broadcaster Software) is free and open source software for video recording and live streaming. Stream to Twitch, YouTube and many other providers or record your own videos with high quality H264 / AAC encoding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> obsproject.com


Thanks!


----------



## Daren Audio

jazzman7 said:


> Thanks!


Sure thing! 
Just YouTube "crop and resize in OBS."


----------



## mscp

Disappointing in what way? There are many libraries I bought that I don’t use, but that’s just because of the material I write for. I wouldn’t call any of these libraries disappointing…at least from a sound quality perspective.


----------



## jbuhler

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It seems like a weird decision to omit a basic articulation such as Staccato in favor of all manner of specialty articulations.
> 
> (I'm aware of the Time Stretch patches)


You don't even need to use the time machine patches. You just need to set the time mode for the .5" or 1" short to something other than "No short artic RTs." Then the length of the short will more or less follow your playing rather than blurring together as with the default. (I'm not certain why SF sets the default the way that they do, since it makes it seem like the shorts are very unresponsive, when I find them very responsive when the instrument is set up properly.)


----------



## jazzman7

jazzman7 said:


> Thanks!


Just started playing with this. Seriously cool! It's trippy to watch an infinity mirror of my desktop. Appreciate the info!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

jbuhler said:


> You don't even need to use the time machine patches. You just need to set the time mode for the .5" or 1" short to something other than "No short artic RTs." Then the length of the short will more or less follow your playing rather than blurring together as with the default. (I'm not certain why SF sets the default the way that they do, since it makes it seem like the shorts are very unresponsive, when I find them very responsive when the instrument is set up properly.)


What! I'll have to try this tomorrow. Thanks!


----------



## Groctave

I'd like to remove my vote for regretting my Berlin Brass purchase. Even if SINE needs improvement (a REAL purge function please) I find the update great and using this library every day is a real pleasure.

Sorry, but I don't have "disappointing library purchase" anymore ^^


----------



## Michel Simons

Groctave said:


> I'd like to remove my vote for regretting my Berlin Brass purchase. Even if SINE needs improvement (a REAL purge function please) I find the update great and using this library every day is a real pleasure.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't have "disappointing library purchase" anymore ^^


Then you haven't bought enough libraries.


----------



## Zanshin

Groctave said:


> I'd like to remove my vote for regretting my Berlin Brass purchase. Even if SINE needs improvement (a REAL purge function please) I find the update great and using this library every day is a real pleasure.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't have "disappointing library purchase" anymore ^^


Is there a new update?


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

jbuhler said:


> You don't even need to use the time machine patches. You just need to set the time mode for the .5" or 1" short to something other than "No short artic RTs." Then the length of the short will more or less follow your playing rather than blurring together as with the default. (I'm not certain why SF sets the default the way that they do, since it makes it seem like the shorts are very unresponsive, when I find them very responsive when the instrument is set up properly.)


Just tried this with Violins 1, both CTAO and Stereo mix versions, where RT was in turn set to all other options than "No short artic RTs".

It is very easy to hear the distinction between the articulation and the release sample when you release a key.

Is there a way to fix this?

I tried with different settings for the Release slider with no success.


----------



## jamie8

Daren Audio said:


> So far I've been able to get by and made 76 custom presets from Symphonic Motions ranging from Alfred Hitchcock to Henry Mancini styles.
> 
> I, like many of us, struggle to view Kontakt's GUI, especially when developers use tiny fonts.
> And it doesn't help if you're on a 40" 4K HDTV which makes everything even smaller.
> What I've done is use OBS (free by the way) side by side with Kontakt.
> OBS acts as a "magnifying glass" to enlarge/crop/re-size the Kontakt GUI for better workflow.


That’s a great idea hope it works well with the actual Spitfire sampler player I am willing to give that a shot also wondering if you’d be willing to part with some of your custom presets know ,that’s a big ask and have absolutely no problems with a firm no😎🤘


----------



## jbuhler

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> Just tried this with Violins 1, both CTAO and Stereo mix versions, where RT was in turn set to all other options than "No short artic RTs".
> 
> It is very easy to hear the distinction between the articulation and the release sample when you release a key.
> 
> Is there a way to fix this?
> 
> I tried with different settings for the Release slider with no success.


The first option (default) is the full sample with release played as a one-shot. I use the second option mostly (I'm away from my rig right now so can't give the setting's name), and don't have any issue in context with the release sample sounding out of time. I seem to recall that they cut the sample on note-off and then add the release as needed. In context it sounds to me very much like the staccato of SCS if I play bouncy and short with repetitions but I have more control over its length than with SCS staccato. I recall that the third option gives you another note on note-off (or maybe it's just the release sample) but it is a useful option for doing continuous repetitions where you want the first note more prominent than the second. But I don't get any sort of gap between the end of the note and something else coming in except for that third option, where I believe that is by design for doing repetitions. I haven't really worked with the slider option, since the second option generally serves my purposes.


----------



## zwhita

Can't remember if I posted here about a specific purchase being the worst, but I'd still go with anything from *UVI Vintage Vault* that was actually sourced from pre 1982 vintage(except for the samplers). Seems to me they intentionally removed all the life and character, in order to achieve a more uniform feature set over the entire range of products.


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

jbuhler said:


> The first option (default) is the full sample with release played as a one-shot. I use the second option mostly (I'm away from my rig right now so can't give the setting's name), and don't have any issue in context with the release sample sounding out of time. I seem to recall that they cut the sample on note-off and then add the release as needed. In context it sounds to me very much like the staccato of SCS if I play bouncy and short with repetitions but I have more control over its length than with SCS staccato. I recall that the third option gives you another note on note-off (or maybe it's just the release sample) but it is a useful option for doing continuous repetitions where you want the first note more prominent than the second. But I don't get any sort of gap between the end of the note and something else coming in except for that third option, where I believe that is by design for doing repetitions. I haven't really worked with the slider option, since the second option generally serves my purposes.


It may work in context. When testing I was deliberately listening for problems / anything that didn’t sound natural, but of course that’s not the way you normally listen to music. I’m gonna bookmark your posts for future use.

Thanks for taking the time to write these tips for me


----------



## Groctave

Zanshin said:


> Is there a new update?


Oh. No. My apologies if I led you to the assumption that there was an update. The thread was on top and it made me remember that I felt disappointed a few months back, before I knew Berlin Brass was about to be updated to SINE. I just wanted to clean up my mess.

I wish there was an update too. Sorry. If you travel in the East of France be sure I'll offer you a drink as a compensation!


----------



## Zanshin

Groctave said:


> I wish there was an update too. Sorry. If you travel in the East of France be sure I'll offer you a drink as a compensation!


No worries at all. Same to you, if you are ever in Minneapolis Minnesota, USA!


----------



## Groctave

Zanshin said:


> No worries at all. Same to you, if you are ever in Minneapolis Minnesota, USA!


Great! Let me pack a sandwich and put on my swimsuit (the Atlantic Ocean is quite a thing), I should be there for tomorrow's afterwork.


----------



## Daren Audio

jamie8 said:


> That’s a great idea hope it works well with the actual Spitfire sampler player I am willing to give that a shot also wondering if you’d be willing to part with some of your custom presets know ,that’s a big ask and have absolutely no problems with a firm no😎


Just PM'd you with pointers and tips! 

- Cheers!


----------



## jamie8

Daren Audio said:


> Just PM'd you with pointers and tips!
> 
> - Cheers!


Got them and thank you!!😎🤘


----------



## jbuhler

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It may work in context. When testing I was deliberately listening for problems / anything that didn’t sound natural, but of course that’s not the way you normally listen to music. I’m gonna bookmark your posts for future use.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to write these tips for me


Now that I'm home and at my rig, I would say that the only real issues I hear with timed short artic RTs in isolation are on the longer duration notes where I occasionally hear a subtle ring out especially in the lowest octave of the violin 1. But it certainly delivers a very usable short staccato that is nicely distinguished from the spiccato, both in length and in timbre, and not at all muddied up like the default. And because it responds to the length of the midi note, it produces a wide selection of lengths too.


----------



## LamaRose

I take ALL responsibility for my actions... my worst purchase is MY worst decision... TRUTH!


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

jbuhler said:


> Now that I'm home and at my rig, I would say that the only real issues I hear with timed short artic RTs in isolation are on the longer duration notes where I occasionally hear a subtle ring out especially in the lowest octave of the violin 1. But it certainly delivers a very usable short staccato that is nicely distinguished from the spiccato, both in length and in timbre, and not at all muddied up like the default. And because it responds to the length of the midi note, it produces a wide selection of lengths too.


At lower velocities it worked better than on higher velocities, I noticed.


----------



## jbuhler

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> At lower velocities it worked better than on higher velocities, I noticed.


I rarely pound in string lines, and usually when strings are sawing away in that way there's a lot going on elsewhere in any case so releases are the least of your worries. I was testing it here mostly in the velocity range of 20-80. As you get louder the minimum length of the staccato should naturally expand. In any case, you need to ask yourself what a loud staccato (as opposed to martele) sounds like with a large string section (and SSS is a very large string section).


----------



## kitekrazy

Taron said:


> Holy ...please, forgive me, if I jump on this thread without truly staying on topic, but just how freaking rich are you guys to spend hundreds on sample libraries out of impulse? I've read that so many times here (per second) that it just bubbled up within me how ...eh... guess, I should take a deep breath and congratulate you all on your seemingly unlimited funding and wished I could offer you some products, too.
> Now I must have a look at ALL their marketing campaigns to draw inspiration from!


If you got into this madness at the turn of the century there was less competition. There were no $29 libraries or plugins.


----------



## kitekrazy

Futchibon said:


> Seems to work for Carlos!



I think there are people out there that can do greatness with anything you hand to them.


----------



## rmk

BT Phobos +1, the gui is very dangerous to use


----------



## cedricm

Daren Audio said:


> So far I've been able to get by and made 76 custom presets from Symphonic Motions ranging from Alfred Hitchcock to Henry Mancini styles.
> 
> I, like many of us, struggle to view Kontakt's GUI, especially when developers use tiny fonts.
> And it doesn't help if you're on a 40" 4K HDTV which makes everything even smaller.
> What I've done is use OBS (free by the way) side by side with Kontakt.
> OBS acts as a "magnifying glass" to enlarge/crop/re-size the Kontakt GUI for better workflow.


If you're on windows there's a magnifying glass.


----------



## KMA

Phobos


----------



## RogiervG

cedricm said:


> If you're on windows there's a magnifying glass.


and clumsy.. Better fix it, since kontakt 6 developers can have a bigger interface for their libs.


----------



## tmhuud

Abbey Road….


----------



## Syncopator

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The SINE versions of Berlin Orchestra must be my most disappointing purchase now. The disappointment has kept building with it due to:
> 
> 1) the Kontakt versions being relatively great
> 2) the SINE migration introducing various bugs
> 3) the SINE player having many shortcomings
> 4) OT essentially paying us lip service by saying they care but still not fixing or improving anything
> 5) OT refusing to allow SINE buyers to purchase the Kontakt versions (but allowing _new_ Kontakt buyers to purchase the SINE versions for a small fee).
> 
> If the samples weren't good, it wouldn't be as disappointing. The response from OT has been the most disappointing thing about it.


This is very interesting, indeed. I was just watching OT's YouTube videos on SINE Player, because I'm strongly considering their new Time Macro/Time Micro bundle. I'd prefer the Kontakt versions, but they claim the SINE version is updated.

I was hoping one purchase would get you both versions (the samples are identical), but no. If you buy the Kontakt version, then later want the SINE version, there's a fee.

At first, I couldn't understand why they charge differently for the two versions. Why not just sell the library and give us access to either or both? Then I remembered that they pay NI for the Kontakt serial numbers. So, if you buy the Kontakt version, they're giving a chunk of that money to NI. But if you buy the SINE version, they're keeping that revenue. It's still clunky to charge differently, but whatever.

They claim that the SINE player has advantages (and the easy keyswitch system does seem clever). But your claim, @ALittleNightMusic, that SINE is buggy gives me pause. As I write, there are only 6 days left to get the special pricing on the Time Macro/Micro bundle. So, hmm...


----------



## Getsumen

Syncopator said:


> This is very interesting, indeed. I was just watching OT's YouTube videos on SINE Player, because I'm strongly considering their new Time Macro/Time Micro bundle. I'd prefer the Kontakt versions, but they claim the SINE version is updated.
> 
> I was hoping one purchase would get you both versions (the samples are identical), but no. If you buy the Kontakt version, then later want the SINE version, there's a fee.
> 
> At first, I couldn't understand why they charge differently for the two versions. Why not just sell the library and give us access to either or both? Then I remembered that they pay NI for the Kontakt serial numbers. So, if you buy the Kontakt version, they're giving a chunk of that money to NI. But if you buy the SINE version, they're keeping that revenue. It's still clunky to charge differently, but whatever.
> 
> They claim that the SINE player has advantages (and the easy keyswitch system does seem clever). But your claim, @ALittleNightMusic, that SINE is buggy gives me pause. As I write, there are only 6 days left to get the special pricing on the Time Macro/Micro bundle. So, hmm...


People's mileage varies. I've had a general positive experience with SINE regarding stability and such. No crashes or much of anything on my end. You do lose some features that Capsule had however

I have heard that the SINE ports are a little bit worse than the Kontakt ports for Berlin Mains especially though


----------



## Syncopator

ALittleNightMusic said:


> I find SINE the worst sample player out there, by a large margin. Each time I use it, I discover something else that’s ridiculously poorly implemented.


Wow!


----------



## tmhuud

ALittleNightMusic said:


> The SINE versions of Berlin Orchestra must be my most disappointing purchase now. The disappointment has kept building with it due to:
> 
> 1) the Kontakt versions being relatively great
> 2) the SINE migration introducing various bugs
> 3) the SINE player having many shortcomings
> 4) OT essentially paying us lip service by saying they care but still not fixing or improving anything
> 5) OT refusing to allow SINE buyers to purchase the Kontakt versions (but allowing _new_ Kontakt buyers to purchase the SINE versions for a small fee).
> 
> If the samples weren't good, it wouldn't be as disappointing. The response from OT has been the most disappointing thing about it.


Man, I can’t agree more with your post. I’m not just disappointed with the player and support but with the company itself. Oh well. I do hope things improve. I try giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and yeah, things fall through the cracks and folks get overworked and then there’s the YMMV scenario but I’m hoping things improve with the way their customers are handled.


----------



## Syncopator

Getsumen said:


> People's mileage varies. I've had a general positive experience with SINE regarding stability and such. No crashes or much of anything on my end. You do lose some features that Capsule had however
> 
> I have heard that the SINE ports are a little bit worse than the Kontakt ports for Berlin Mains especially though


Thanks for this contrasting opinion. I don't own any OT titles so far, so I won't miss the Capsule features. When watching walkthroughs online, being wholly unfamiliar with the player, it's difficult to spot anything that may later become an annoyance. And of course the videos are edited to show off the products.

Having watched a few different videos for the Time libraries, they seem to work as one would expect. And for the money they're asking for those libraries, they'd better! 😊


----------



## ned3000

HW OPUS.

Seems like it would be awesome, but I can't load anywhere near the number of instruments I could with the Play version. Memory usage is ridiculous, so it's my most expensive sample-based doorstop.


----------



## ansthenia

Modern Scoring Brass. I bought it because I love Modern Scoring Strings, but I don't like it anywhere near as much. The tone and playability of everything is horrible imo, though I've read some people sing its praises. I've never heard a library so resistant to reverb. It's weird, I've never experienced this with anything else and I don't know what could possibly cause it or if it's just my ears playing tricks on me. But it feels like there's some magic barrier between MSB and any reverb you try to add that stops them from jelling together.


----------



## Casiquire

Syncopator said:


> This is very interesting, indeed. I was just watching OT's YouTube videos on SINE Player, because I'm strongly considering their new Time Macro/Time Micro bundle. I'd prefer the Kontakt versions, but they claim the SINE version is updated.
> 
> I was hoping one purchase would get you both versions (the samples are identical), but no. If you buy the Kontakt version, then later want the SINE version, there's a fee.
> 
> At first, I couldn't understand why they charge differently for the two versions. Why not just sell the library and give us access to either or both? Then I remembered that they pay NI for the Kontakt serial numbers. So, if you buy the Kontakt version, they're giving a chunk of that money to NI. But if you buy the SINE version, they're keeping that revenue. It's still clunky to charge differently, but whatever.
> 
> They claim that the SINE player has advantages (and the easy keyswitch system does seem clever). But your claim, @ALittleNightMusic, that SINE is buggy gives me pause. As I write, there are only 6 days left to get the special pricing on the Time Macro/Micro bundle. So, hmm...


Try some of the free factory instruments to see how the workflow and software behave for you and your system 😁


----------



## paoling

AMBi said:


> Pretty much anything I bought from Native Instruments, Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Series, Orchestral Tools, Performance Samples, Embertone, VSL, Audio Imperia, Cinesamples, Westwood, Best Service, Strezov Sampling, East West, Impact Soundworks, 8dio, Zero-G, Musical Sampling, Eduardo Tarilonte, Rast Sound, Virharmonic, Realitone, E-Instruments, Heavyocity, Pianobook (they ripped me off the most), Sonuscore, Orange Tree Samples, Nami Audio, Ben Osterhouse, Emergence Audio, Big Fish Audio, Light and Sound, Amplesound, Soniccouture, Auddict, Sonixenema, In Session Audio, AVA, Vir2, Ilyia Efimov, Artistry Audio, Fracture Sounds, Soundiron, Indiginus, Evolution Series, IAMLAMPREY Slate and Ash, Wavelet Audio, Naroth Audio, Felt Instruments, Sample Logic, Audiobro, Sonokinetic, Black Octopus, Xperimenta Project, Chocolate Audio, Karoryfer, Frozen Plain, Initial Audio, Lunacy Audio, Muze, Red Room Audio, Project SAM, Simple Sam, Complicated Sam, Sampletraxx, Sonic Atoms, Arturia, Ujam, Bela D Media, Camel Audio, Crocus Soundware, Versilian Studios, Triple Spiral Audio, Chris Hein, Dream Audio Tools, Sound Aesthetic Sampling, Audiofier, XSample, Organic Samples, Riot Audio, Soundmagic, Sonic Zest, Karanyi Sounds, Man Makes Noise, Audio Modeling, Spectrasonics, Ink Audio, HAVE Audio, Sudden Audio, Wide Blue Sound, Three Body Tech, Audio Ollie, Minimal Tonal, Rawbit Audio and especially Pulsesetter Sounds for putting Dystopian Guitars on sale when I really shouldn't be spending money.
> 
> Would *never* buy from them again.
> 
> (Fluffy Audio is good though)


Don’t know if being the exception here is a good thing :-D


----------



## Midori Yakumo

BBC Symphonic Orchestra Pro. The core version has some pretty nice sounding orchestral section, but the solo instruments that comes with the pro version are just garbage. The strings doesn't sound like strings, more like some kind of weird screaming for violin. Viola/cello are mediocre at best. Super disappointed by it, I'd rather spent the equivalent amount of another core library on the NI solo strings (stradivari violin, amati viola, etc beats those strings by miles).


----------



## paularthur

I just wish more libraries were more conscious of the phasing issues.


----------



## RogiervG

Midori Yakumo said:


> BBC Symphonic Orchestra Pro. The core version has some pretty nice sounding orchestral section, but the solo instruments that comes with the pro version are just garbage. The strings doesn't sound like strings, more like some kind of weird screaming for violin. Viola/cello are mediocre at best. Super disappointed by it, I'd rather spent the equivalent amount of another core library on the NI solo strings (stradivari violin, amati viola, etc beats those strings by miles).


But at least you have more mics to play with, and the woodwinds additional instruments are not bad either. I agree the solo strings (first chairs) are not that great compared to the rest.


----------



## Jackal_King

After about a good 1 1/2 years of buying different sample libraries from various companies and spending a lot of time learning the ins and outs of them, I would have to say Spitfire Studio Strings. At times it sounds nice with the longs and spiccatos, but the legato and random volume changes is quite inconsistent. And the GUI for Kontakt is not user-friendly, even when I stream my laptop to a bigger screen I almost want to put Cinematic Studio Strings above it but since it layers nicely with Spitfire Appassionata and a potential update, I won't call CSS most disappointing...yet.


----------



## ControlCentral

zwhita said:


> Seems to me they intentionally removed all the life and character, in order to achieve a more uniform feature set over the entire range of products.


Perhaps I have an idiosyncratic ear as well but that why I have no UVI products. Its like wax fruit to me.


----------



## ControlCentral

kitekrazy said:


> If you got into this madness at the turn of the century there was less competition. There were no $29 libraries or plugins.


LOL I was just reminiscing about the price list on the PDF on one of my old mixed-mode sample CDs for a retro project I'm working on. Just a 350 MB sample CD could be $100 or more and you would have to rip, top, and tail the samples. Or spring for the CD-Rom version for $150 for the wav file versions. It was a big imprtovement when the Sam Ash got a CD carousel to audition them-- you had to buy 'em blind before that.
Fax your order in now!


----------



## zwhita

ControlCentral said:


> Perhaps I have an idiosyncratic ear as well but that why I have no UVI products. Its like wax fruit to me.


Still life. Not appropriate for analogue synths imo anyhow. I do like many of their digital hardware sourced libraries, but of course having Falcon, you can continue processing the samples ad infinitum, making it more of a process of discovery.


----------



## ControlCentral

zwhita said:


> ...but of course having Falcon, ...


Falcon has tempted me a few times, especially via some of Simon Stockhausen's Patchpool.de presets but at that price point I'm happy to be able to draw the line on at least SOME things!


----------



## MaxOctane

Midori Yakumo said:


> BBC Symphonic Orchestra Pro. ... weird screaming for violin. Viola/cello are mediocre at best. Super disappointed by it


@Mattia Chiappa's work shows how amazing BBCSO can sound:


----------



## RogiervG

MaxOctane said:


> @Mattia Chiappa's work shows how amazing BBCSO can sound:



Uhm, did you read what midori complained about? These videos are totally unrelated to the complaint (since the solo strings are not used in isolation or as non first chairs in any of these vids).


----------



## zwhita

ControlCentral said:


> Falcon has tempted me a few times, but at that price point I'm happy to be able to draw the line on at least SOME things!


It's worth mentioning that UVI has a voucher program where once a year you get a personalized discount to buy more products from them, depending on how much you've spent the previous year. This is how I got Shade for $5. But yeah, Falcon isn't cheap or even the best option if all you want is a nice softsynth like Serum.


----------



## MaxOctane

RogiervG said:


> Uhm, did you read what midori complained about? These videos are totally unrelated to the complaint (since the solo strings are not used in isolation or as non first chairs in any of these vids).


Oh, maybe I interpreted her comment as general dissatisfaction, but you're right she's calling out the solo strings. That said, Mattia's pieces do have some solo string elements which I thought were nice.


----------



## Zanshin

MaxOctane said:


> Oh, maybe I interpreted her comment as general dissatisfaction, but you're right she's calling out the solo strings. That said, Mattia's pieces do have some solo string elements which I thought were nice.


It's OK if she hates the whole thing too. We all have different tastes, wants, needs, etc.


----------



## zodiaclawl

Probably BBCSO Core. I got it for €200 during the Apex sale but I'm pretty disappointed with it in many different ways. First of all the mic mixes that they used actually sound inexplicably worse than in the Discover version which I got for free. One example is the harp that sounds very pretty and roomy(almost a bit too wet) in the Discover version but it sounds plasticky, dry and bland in the Core version so I can't take advantage of the additional articulations and glissando. Same story with the Celeste, Glockenspiel and many of the string and brass instruments. It's also very resource heavy and takes long to load with all the extra articulations despite having a computer with high specs and an SSD drive. I don't understand how people without a super computer could possibly run the professional version which is like 30 times bigger or so.

I do find quite a bit of usage for the woodwinds though which are beautiful and the highlight of the library in my opinion. I'm especially fond of the piccolo and flute legatos.


----------



## cedricm

BBSO Pro. 
Not for the content, although for the price, more dynamics layers could be expected. But because 
- I was under the impression it was the first of many BBC/recorded in same room samples libraries 
- I bet that Spitfire Audio, being one of the biggest companies in the industry, would continuously invest in its player to catch up with Kontakt /Opus. Boy was I wrong. (hope i'm not repeating myself, I can't be bothered to read the 62 pages of the thread again.)


----------



## Midori Yakumo

RogiervG said:


> But at least you have more mics to play with, and the woodwinds additional instruments are not bad either. I agree the solo strings (first chairs) are not that great compared to the rest.


yeah ngl given how bad the solo string is im actually surprised about the woodwind's quality (good enough to not buy another one from vsl, etc)

the harp isn't the best either the vsl one beats it by miles (ik its a core instrument)


MaxOctane said:


> @Mattia Chiappa's work shows how amazing BBCSO can sound:



Their orchestral stuff (instrumental sections) sounds really good, imo the core does those function pretty well. its just that the upgrade to the pro doesn't really give that much value for money


----------



## Henrik B. Jensen

Midori Yakumo said:


> BBC Symphonic Orchestra Pro. The core version has some pretty nice sounding orchestral section, but the solo instruments that comes with the pro version are just garbage. The strings doesn't sound like strings, more like some kind of weird screaming for violin. Viola/cello are mediocre at best. Super disappointed by it, I'd rather spent the equivalent amount of another core library on the NI solo strings (stradivari violin, amati viola, etc beats those strings by miles).


It’s not solo strings and they are not supposed to be used as such. It’s string section leaders which are meant to be blended in with the main section string patches after taste. They do this job very well.


----------



## Casiquire

Henrik B. Jensen said:


> It’s not solo strings and they are not supposed to be used as such. It’s string section leaders which are meant to be blended in with the main section string patches after taste. They do this job very well.


Yep, we should always be mindful to criticize a library's ability to do what it's designed to do, versus what we're trying to force it to do


----------



## dunamisstudio

dunamisstudio said:


> I regret buying as many plugins instead of sample libraries. But like someone mentioned earlier, timing I regret more. Should of got some on sale. Waited until Symphobia dropped in price. Skipped VSL VI stuff and stay with Synchron.


One year later review. Yeah still have too many plugins. Some purchases have been part of the learning experience. Outside of that, I would caution those who are new, whose opinions to follow. Any time I think of regret, most of the time, it usually deals with listening to the opinions of this forum. Heck you could read this 60+ page thread and regret every purchase. Have to find a balance. If I like how it sounds and how it functions, I'll like it. Plus I turn any those purchases into a video which hope to start this year.

So I kinda have a "love/hate relationship" for this place. One hand I've scored some great deals, on other hand, either got too much or made to feel I regret buying something.


----------



## LostintheBardo

Eric Whitarce Choir :(


----------



## Evans

Abbey Road Two: Iconic Strings 

It's not the sound, it's the software. Every other Spitfire release works fine for me, but AR2 takes like a minute to load each mic. I've even moved drives.

Spitfire support was friendly and noted it as a known issue for some configurations. 

Meh!


----------



## muziksculp

Evans said:


> Abbey Road Two: Iconic Strings
> 
> It's not the sound, it's the software. Every other Spitfire release works fine for me, but AR2 takes like a minute to load each mic. I've even moved drives.
> 
> Spitfire support was friendly and noted it as a known issue for some configurations.
> 
> Meh!


Yeah.. Their software sucks with this library. I posted about this topic yesterday. If you have VSL VE-Pro 7 try to host it in VE-Pro, I got much better efficiency running this library using VE-Pro Locally, compared running it directly in my DAW.

I'm sure Spitfire Audio know about this, and hope they will post an update to fix it as soon as possible for them to do so.


----------



## MarkKouznetsov

Honestly? Spitfire's stuff. All of it. I went from using only their stuff and being a stupid fanboy like many of the people commenting on their videos (not a stab at you, if you use it; I was literally ignoring everything else; I talk about myself and the comments like: "OMG SPITFIRE SAVED MY LIFE LITERALLY OMG") to not using their stuff at all. The sound, the bugs, the inconsistencies, the playability issues with legatos... And tuning? half tone off is pretty often, I shall say. I'm just tired of it all. Their synths like eDNA in all of their libraries sound exactly the same to me. You can take any patch from Albion One, or Earth, Ambient Guitars, or any other albions, whatever has any of their synths in it... It feels to me, like it was made on a same day, by the same guy... and then they decided to just repackage it over and over, over the course of the last 12 years or so.

Happily moved to Cinematic Studios with the rest covered by CineSamples (harps, pianos, percussion, etc.) and never looked back. Once you EQ CSS, you will bring back the transparent chamber quality to it, with sparkly highs and clear and non-muffled sound, as it is from the box. Sounds waaaaay ahead of Chamber Strings, if you do it right. The only thing I whish is we had a symphonic version of that orchestra and more articulations/legato options, like sul tasto and stuff, and probably an option for individual patches per articulation. It takes time and effort to crack through to get "the sound", it's not out of the box gratification, that's why I struggled for so many times and abandoned it. But once I have found "my sound" with it, it was just a matter of saving some custom EQ presets and a Kontakt multi with all the settings and custom mic positions. I literally never change those anymore. Oh, CSS is great for divisi, too. Just doubling the whole ensemble, sounds great (transposition trick). If you need to divide your violas, you don't even have to think about balance or volume. Then divide violas AND celli. Big emotional moment? Divide EVERYTHING, 10 voices for that R.V.Williams feel. There's nothing like it! And go back to 5 voices again for that strong and powerful statement of your main theme. Because the ensemble is not that big, you still get that nice texture in the low/mid dynamics you would get when dividing real strings, especially if you automate the vibrato. Also, yes, you have to EQ it smarter than you would any other library, it's not an out-of-the-box experience.


One thing Spitfire is good at is copying Apple, with everyone over there seeming to be a "genius", who "thinks different" and every product is a "revolution", a "new step" and "game over" for everybody else. God knows, why their groundbreaking approach to legato is still behind a library that came out in like 2017.


----------



## Erick - BVA

I'm probably gonna get banned for saying this, but Spitfire is almost like a more sophisticated Unison Audio. Everything they make is the best thing since sliced bread. Apparently I'm in one of those moods.
Edit for context - I do actually use some spitfire stuff, and love it.
But their marketing! I hate it sometimes.


----------



## Trash Panda

Godspeed, gentlemen. The Spitfire army will be having a word with the both of you shortly.


----------



## Fleer

Trash Panda said:


> Godspeed, gentlemen. The Spitfire army will be having a word with the both of you shortly.


More like a special musical operation


----------



## Erick - BVA

MarkKouznetsov said:


> Honestly? Spitfire's stuff. All of it. I went from using only their stuff and being a stupid fanboy like many of the people commenting on their videos to not using their stuff at all. The sound, the bugs, the inconsistencies, the playability issues with legatos... And tuning? half tone off is pretty often, I shall say. I'm just tired of it all. Their synths like eDNA in all of their libraries sound exactly the same to me. You can take any patch from Albion One, or Earth, Ambient Guitars, or any other albions, whatever has any of their synths in it... It feels like it was made on a same day by one person and they are just repackaging it over the course of the last 12 years or so.
> 
> Happily moved to Cinematic Studios with the rest covered by CineSamples (harps, pianos, percussion, etc.) and never looked back. Once you EQ CSS, you will bring back the transparent chamber quality to it, with sparkly highs and clear and non-muffled sound, as it is from the box. Sounds waaaaay ahead of Chamber Strings, if you do it right. The only thing I whish is we had a symphonic version of that orchestra and more articulations/legato options, like sul tasto and stuff, and probably an option for individual patches per articulation.
> 
> One thing Spitfire is good at is copying Apple, with everyone over there seeming to be a "genius", who "thinks different" and every product is a "revolution", a "new step" and "game over" for everybody else. God knows, why their groundbreaking approach to legato is still behind a library that came out in like 2017.


I'm not a fan of pretty much any string library, including the Cinematic Studio stuff.
The thing I do appreciate about Spitfire is there is usually a lot of character in their stuff. Even when there are some ambient noises that bleed through, I'm fine with that. It would be better if they'd do some more RR though. Some of their stuff is really cool and useful. It's just some of the marketing that kind of turns me off.


----------



## bfreepro

Erick - BVA said:


> I'm not a fan of pretty much any string library, including the Cinematic Studio stuff.
> The thing I do appreciate about Spitfire is there is usually a lot of character in their stuff. Even when there are some ambient noises that bleed through, I'm fine with that. It would be better if they'd do some more RR though. Some of their stuff is really cool and useful. It's just some of the marketing that kind of turns me off.


I find spitfire's marketing to be beyond pretentious and absurd, even downright cringeworthy on the best of days lol.
But I also would rather use Spitfire Symphonic Strings over Cinematic Studio Strings. I am fully aware I'm in the minuscule minority here, but I find CSS to sound so muffled and that's actually one of my personal library regrets haha. CSS makes up for lack of cringe marketing with near unanimous never-ending praise from the community as if it's completely flawless and the ultimate end-game string lib (which doesn't exist I know)... great legato no doubt but the tone... dark, blanketed, and kind of lifeless IMO.


----------



## Erick - BVA

bfreepro said:


> I find spitfire's marketing to be beyond pretentious and absurd, even downright cringeworthy on the best of days lol.
> But I also would rather use Spitfire Symphonic Strings over Cinematic Studio Strings. I am fully aware I'm in the minuscule minority here, but I find CSS to sound so muffled and that's actually one of my personal library regrets haha. CSS makes up for lack of cringe marketing with near unanimous never-ending praise from the community as if it's completely flawless and the ultimate end-game string lib (which doesn't exist I know)... great legato no doubt but the tone... dark, blanketed, and kind of lifeless IMO.


I can't really think of many libraries I can think of that I've regretted buying - or care enough to mention because of it. But Cinematic Studio Solo Strings is one of them. It sounds very fake to me, and the tone is just bad to me.


----------



## jtnyc

MarkKouznetsov said:


> Their synths like eDNA in all of their libraries sound exactly the same to me. You can take any patch from Albion One, or Earth, Ambient Guitars, or any other albions


So true. And the edna UI is far from great. Tiny, cluttered and no fun to navigate at all, so it just became about the presets, and like you've said, the redundancy is almost laughable, There are some cool sounds, but for me it's around 10 to 15%. Often there's a nice preset and 1 or 2 others with a similar name and the differences are barely noticeable or just not very different in any useful way. Combine this with the fact that they are all individual nki's and it's a real pain in the ass to sort favorites. I did it in Quickload, but I own A1, AOne, Tundra and Earth! Yikes.... That was a lot of nki's to load and sort. It was worth it and I do like quite a few of the sounds, but even in my favorite folders things often feel very similar.


----------



## bfreepro

jtnyc said:


> So true. And the edna UI is far from great. Tiny, cluttered and no fun to navigate at all, so it just became about the presets, and like you've said, the redundancy is almost laughable, There are some cool sounds, but for me it's around 10 to 15%. Often there's a nice preset and 1 or 2 others with a similar name and the differences are barely noticeable or just not very different in any useful way. Combine this with the fact that they are all individual nki's and it's a real pain in the ass to sort favorites. I did it in Quickload, but I own A1, AOne, Tundra and Earth! Yikes.... That was a lot of nki's to load and sort. It was worth it and I do like quite a few of the sounds, but even in my favorite folders things often feel very similar.


Yeah eDNA Earth especially is weird... the steam band stuff from Albion ONE and NEO sounds just as good (or often better) than anything in Earth which all can be just... redundant and same-y and just a mediocre sound with a gate effect lol.


----------



## Casiquire

bfreepro said:


> I find spitfire's marketing to be beyond pretentious and absurd, even downright cringeworthy on the best of days lol.
> But I also would rather use Spitfire Symphonic Strings over Cinematic Studio Strings. I am fully aware I'm in the minuscule minority here, but I find CSS to sound so muffled and that's actually one of my personal library regrets haha. CSS makes up for lack of cringe marketing with near unanimous never-ending praise from the community as if it's completely flawless and the ultimate end-game string lib (which doesn't exist I know)... great legato no doubt but the tone... dark, blanketed, and kind of lifeless IMO.


CSS's update is pretty good. It's nice and clear. Granted there are plenty of other reasons it might not fit for you, but if the muffled quality or the delay were the main ones, it's worth an update and another look. And I'm absolutely not on the constant praise train, I can promise you that. It just addressed those criticisms to an extent.


----------



## bfreepro

Casiquire said:


> CSS's update is pretty good. It's nice and clear. Granted there are plenty of other reasons it might not fit for you, but if the muffled quality or the delay were the main ones, it's worth an update and another look. And I'm absolutely not on the constant praise train, I can promise you that. It just addressed those criticisms to an extent.


I actually didn't mind the delay, it was the overall dark tone which sounded muddy, and when I EQ'd it, it just made that room hiss unbearable (which to be fair I've also read that has been improved in the update). I didn't download it yet but definitely will now


----------



## NYC Composer

Erick - BVA said:


> I can't really think of many libraries I can think of that I've regretted buying - or care enough to mention because of it. But Cinematic Studio Solo Strings is one of them. It sounds very fake to me, and the tone is just bad to me.


The vibrato is too fast and there’s too much of it. I’m a Cinematic Studios fanboy and I’ve written 4 quartets with CSSS, very hard going and uneven results. It’s the only clunker so far-I still love CS 2.


----------



## MarkKouznetsov

Anyways, when I was trying CSS for the first time, it wasn't an easy experience, I got to admit. Spitfire has got that instant gratification, but there's a learning curve with Cinematic Studio.

I don't like how it sounds outside the box, but many will disagree with me. Hey, the most important thing is, it's FIXABLE/TWEAKABLE. You can shape it, you're not stuck with it.

Spitfire does have cool ideas, it's just the execution when you dive into it, when you're like: "Oh, so I can't write these type of lines? Only hold long notes for 5 minutes for it to sound realistic? Okay".

Just yesterday I was getting rid of all the stuff I didn't use. I got rid of SCS and SSS a long time ago. I used to compare it to and think "gosh, css is so boring". After I eventually forced myself to sit down and learn CSS (because everyone was raving about it and I just couldn't understand it even though I've tried many times and gave up); then going back to SF and thinking: "nooooo waaay... This just doesn't sound good anymore. And I used to be happy with the result. 🤷🏻

Legatos too. They say the strings should sound that way. BS. Listen to any recording of live strings, the legatos will be noticeably smoother than even CSS. And that's the best we have. And then going back to basically detache from SF, yeah... Dynamic layer crossfades need to be mentioned, as well. You can just go on and on about it, really. Bugs that never got fixed, also deserve a mention.

So just sitting through their other stuff yesterday like Orbis. Or Earth. Or Kepler. Made me realise: I don't think I will ever use it. It's just all the same, basically. Just as BDT/CDT. Great ideas, very thin sound. Never going to use it. The sticking out notes when you play a soft chord, really fake sounding strings, ambient guitars that have no real character or body (have you tried Quartarone? That's how it should sound).

But again, that's just me. Not telling you to think the same.

It's just...will you ever write trailer music with Albion One? Or Iceni? Do you have time to browse through eDNA Earth for the patch you have in mind? Or Albion IV? I can make hybrid strings out of CSS by throwing a saturator, distortion and compressor on it, throw a gate on it and I'm done. And that will be my unique sound, my idea. (I did just that yesterday and it sounded EXACTLY like Motion Strings!... Or evo grid, or whatever that thing was called. Now I'm curious, whether those were the actual performances or just long strings with a gate on it. Because that's how it sounds.) Or I can spend half a day looking for an ambiguous "Edward ScissorStrings" (or whatever, "Farting Tuba") patch in Albion One that will never be tweaked or sound or do just exactly what I want it to do.

But maybe, I'm wrong and you don't agree. And you know? That's totally fine.


----------



## hauspe

I will make it short: I have a lot of Spitfire stuff (spent$$$), some of them I like a lot but I went to Vienna Synchron libraries because they are very consistent, very easy to handle especially when it comes to the daily routine. No bad surprises to be expected and no "tuning curve" needed, just install and play. I like the very handy expression maps and the sound is great without any doubt. Form time to time I add SSS, Albion One (and other stuff form other seller) for layering purposes (trailer music), but that's it.


----------



## MaxOctane

I could regret the huge piles of money I've dumped into sample libs and musical gear over the years, which I only get to noodle with for half hour a day. But, screw it...

*Non, je ne regrette rien*


----------



## Vik

MarkKouznetsov said:


> I got rid of SCS and SSS a long time ago.


I was disappointed with Mural 1 and 2, but updated to SSS at some point, and I still find myself going back to SSS and SCS.

In this example, for instance, they are IMO both definitely usable: 




MarkKouznetsov said:


> I don't like how it sounds outside the box


The CSS example in the same example sounds good IMO, and it's easy to achieve something very different than the factory sound by using mainly the close mic and then add some Main or Room mic (or both). Have you checked out the new CSS sound (in version 1.7)?


----------



## decredis

In a weird way, SCS. I only bought it in the recent sale and I'm basically v happy with it, it's my first ensemble strings library (semimodelled ones aside) and it has a wonderful range of articulations and sounds lovely. 

But why in a way I'm disappointed with it is that it has quite a few bad samples (or bad transitions) where the pitch is badly off. And there's ways around it because of the massive redundancy of what it provides, but at £300 (the sale price) and in a library that's been around long enough to get fixed I guess I'd hope for a near-perfect level of quality control.

Despite that, I'll probably make a lot of use of it, and I do really like the sound.


----------



## Vik

Hi decredis, if SCS is your first library, you may be disappointed with pitch issues, but for some reason, pitch issues unfortunately exist in many libraries. Maybe some of they should consider inviting more 'pitch critical' in the QA process?

My last purchase was 8dio Deep Studio Quartet, mainly for the sul tastos, but even if the ← linked example sounds good (it's based on layers), there are pitch issues in the solo samples that usually wouldn't pass in a regular recording recording/editing session. I still don't regret the purchase, since there are 88 articulations x 4, and definitely useful stuff in there, but I hope that we soon – with the increased competition on the string library market – will see fewer pitch issues and other artifacts in the future.


----------



## decredis

Vik said:


> Hi decredis, if SCS is your first library, you may be disappointed with pitch issues, but for some reason, pitch issues unfortunately exist in many libraries. Maybe some of they should consider inviting more 'pitch critical' in the QA process?


Well, my first ensemble strings library other than SM's Solo and Ensemble Strings. Are you saying pitch errors are especially common in ensemble strings libraries? I've certainly never come across samples this bad (albeit a small number of them compared to the total number of samples in SCS) in other sample libraries, including solo string libraries like Joshua Bell, Chris Hein Cello, or Fischer Viola; and I'd have thought it would be possible for the developer to correct them anyway.

I mean, I can see why they would be more common in strings libraries, and the more strings (and the more samples) the more chance of pitch errors arising. It's just the developer leaving those glaring errors in the (expensive) software rather than pitch-correcting them at source.


----------



## Vik

decredis said:


> I mean, I can see why they would be more common in strings libraries, and the more strings (and the more samples) the more chance of pitch errors arising.


Well, it's also true that the more strings there are in an ensemble, the less we'll notice if a player or two is a little off. And that's probably the reason why it's easy to catch pitch oddities in Spitfire Chamber Strings: the section sizes are 4/3/3/3/3, and three players is almost the worst section size possible (next to having only two players). The idea is of course not to have three violin players with exacty the same pitch – that sounds quite awful/dead. But if two players, in a section of three, have a normal/expected pitch difference, and the third one is off (even only for a second or two), it's very audible.


----------



## Akarin

MarkKouznetsov said:


> It's just...will you ever write trailer music with Albion One? Or Iceni?


I did and it made me some money :-p


----------



## VanSou

Cycles by slateandash.. so much money and I simply never use it. weird gui and the presets are not interesting at all for me.. but probably I'm just too lazy to understand the tool


----------



## Greeno

bfreepro said:


> I find spitfire's marketing to be beyond pretentious and absurd, even downright cringeworthy on the best of days lol.
> But I also would rather use Spitfire Symphonic Strings over Cinematic Studio Strings. I am fully aware I'm in the minuscule minority here, but I find CSS to sound so muffled and that's actually one of my personal library regrets haha. CSS makes up for lack of cringe marketing with near unanimous never-ending praise from the community as if it's completely flawless and the ultimate end-game string lib (which doesn't exist I know)... great legato no doubt but the tone... dark, blanketed, and kind of lifeless IMO.


what can we say about Spitfire marketing ...they are in London, one of, if not THE most materialistic places on Earth, marketing is everywhere! Sorry to shatter the fantasies of our US friends but in the UK we don't all live in thatched cottages in little villages like hobbits, we are swamped very much by marketing and materiality!


----------



## yusir

Sopranos said:


> Unfortunately, Sonikenetic libraries let me down... and I purchased several over the holiday sale.
> 
> The cracking between chords on playback makes them virtually unusable for me. And I'm on a modern Mac with relatively high specs and even using lite. And plenty high buffer, etc.
> 
> Just not worth it at all in this case.


I bought Sonokinetic woodwinds ensemble here, no solo instrument, a bit buggy when you adjust mic volume, the runs patch is pre-record and cannot change bpm. The tone is ok but I never used it.


----------



## jbuhler

VanSou said:


> Cycles by slateandash.. so much money and I simply never use it. weird gui and the presets are not interesting at all for me.. but probably I'm just too lazy to understand the tool


I feel this way about Landforms.


----------



## AndrewS

jbuhler said:


> I feel this way about Landforms.


feel the same way, I know there's a decent product in there somewhere but it's incredibly non-intuitive to use so I never really venture beyond the presets


----------



## Draco Solis

Oof, I've had a lot. Mostly because for the past several years I've been a dumb newbie with no idea what to look out for when considering a library. Many devs have gotten easy money from me. xD

But easily the most disappointing (which is also the most recent) has to be Sonuscore's "The Orchestra."
Basically, for a while now I've been in desperate need of a full-fledged orchestra to write music with, since all I had was 8Dio's Majestica (which really doesn't cut it as a core orchestra for a number of reasons). Problem is I've also been pretty financially strained as well, so I needed one which I could get with decent money that wouldn't break the bank. One which could provide the core of my work and sound good until I got something better.

The Orchestra was not that.

I got it while it was on sale and boy do I regret it. The sound quality was decent at best, but for the most part I found it to have a pretty dull and lifeless sound. The Engine ended up not helping me nearly as much as I'd hoped it would, and it had a lot of balancing issues right out of the box. Grabbing Amadeus a year or so later and, for all its limitations, it had a much nicer sound to it that I very much preferred.

I wouldn't say The Orchestra is _terrible,_ but I could have easily saved that money for something much better, and that was a real kick in the face when I was already financially struggling.
Also if it's any worth, I only have the base edition, since this came right after Horns of Hell was released. So "Complete" was no longer available and it was too soon for "Complete 2" to be on sale.


----------



## Taron

Draco Solis said:


> Oof, I've had a lot. Mostly because for the past several years I've been a dumb newbie with no idea what to look out for when considering a library. Many devs have gotten easy money from me. xD
> 
> But easily the most disappointing (which is also the most recent) has to be Sonuscore's "The Orchestra."
> Basically, for a while now I've been in desperate need of a full-fledged orchestra to write music with, since all I had was 8Dio's Majestica (which really doesn't cut it as a core orchestra for a number of reasons). Problem is I've also been pretty financially strained as well, so I needed one which I could get with decent money that wouldn't break the bank. One which could provide the core of my work and sound good until I got something better.
> 
> The Orchestra was not that.
> 
> I got it while it was on sale and boy do I regret it. The sound quality was decent at best, but for the most part I found it to have a pretty dull and lifeless sound. The Engine ended up not helping me nearly as much as I'd hoped it would, and it had a lot of balancing issues right out of the box. Grabbing Amadeus a year or so later and, for all its limitations, it had a much nicer sound to it that I very much preferred.
> 
> I wouldn't say The Orchestra is _terrible,_ but I could have easily saved that money for something much better, and that was a real kick in the face when I was already financially struggling.
> Also if it's any worth, I only have the base edition, since this came right after Horns of Hell was released. So "Complete" was no longer available and it was too soon for "Complete 2" to be on sale.


Ah, haha, yeah, I remember "The Orchestra (II)", which I had a brief encounter with, about a year ago. At the time I was still exploring such libraries for the first time after a long time. Goofing around a bit with others I returned to The Orchestra, as I still could, and did my first ever OLC piece (outside of Spitfire's Discover):

Sure enough, I did have a blast with it, but found that it would've been a little expensive for what it had to offer. Anyway, still good fun if your life doesn't depend on it, I found.


----------



## bfreepro

Draco Solis said:


> Oof, I've had a lot. Mostly because for the past several years I've been a dumb newbie with no idea what to look out for when considering a library. Many devs have gotten easy money from me. xD
> 
> But easily the most disappointing (which is also the most recent) has to be Sonuscore's "The Orchestra."
> Basically, for a while now I've been in desperate need of a full-fledged orchestra to write music with, since all I had was 8Dio's Majestica (which really doesn't cut it as a core orchestra for a number of reasons). Problem is I've also been pretty financially strained as well, so I needed one which I could get with decent money that wouldn't break the bank. One which could provide the core of my work and sound good until I got something better.
> 
> The Orchestra was not that.
> 
> I got it while it was on sale and boy do I regret it. The sound quality was decent at best, but for the most part I found it to have a pretty dull and lifeless sound. The Engine ended up not helping me nearly as much as I'd hoped it would, and it had a lot of balancing issues right out of the box. Grabbing Amadeus a year or so later and, for all its limitations, it had a much nicer sound to it that I very much preferred.
> 
> I wouldn't say The Orchestra is _terrible,_ but I could have easily saved that money for something much better, and that was a real kick in the face when I was already financially struggling.
> Also if it's any worth, I only have the base edition, since this came right after Horns of Hell was released. So "Complete" was no longer available and it was too soon for "Complete 2" to be on sale.


There is something about the overall tone/sound of the Orchestra 2 that makes me cringe, it's like a nice sounding orchestra being played back through really boomy/tinny sounding monitors lol. I really love the idea and interface for inspiration though, I leave it around for just playing some chords and getting inspired by what comes out. The Hollywood Orchestrator is really cool too but takes up so much more space


----------



## AMBi

jbuhler said:


> I feel this way about Landforms.


Every time I get tempted by Landforms that thought comes to mind.
There’s loads of ear candy in there but I wouldn’t even begin to know how to use any of it since it stands out so much. 

If they updated in a solo cello that would the thing to push me over to finally getting it.


----------



## robgb

This thread is long and I'm sure I've mentioned Spitfire Studio Woodwinds Core, which I found pretty much useless for my tastes, but I went ahead and bought the upgrade to Pro for a 50% discount recently and while having the close mics certainly improves things, I'm still not in love with the library. Woodwind libraries are really hit and miss—mostly miss.


----------



## Akarin

For me, it has to be Con Moto Cello. I bought it on release to support the developer even though I knew that I would not use it until at least all the sections were released. Once they were, I didn't really have a use for them so I didn't get them. And suddenly, a project came in where I could use that but the whole Con Moto line got discontinued in the meantime. I contacted the dev to see if he could still sell it to me but he said no. 

I was severly disappointed but I still researched Vista instead (same dev.) Of all the demos I could hear and the free try-patch, I found that it was very noisy at low dynamics (a bit like CSS before the denoising in the 1.7 patch.) I've asked someone who posted a Vista track in a Facebook group how he dealt with the noise as this was the first I've heard without it. And the dev actually replied... ...with only a laughing emoji.

Discontinuing products instead of fixing them in order to tease new ones, refusing to help a customer that really wanted to support an independent dev, and then laughing at his face when he asks a valid question? Yeah, nothing to add. Who knows, maybe the next shiny-before-it-gets-abandoned one will have 2nd violins.


----------



## Vik

Akarin said:


> I contacted the dev to see if he could still sell it to me but he said no.


I guess you know that Con Moto since then has been 're-continued'?


----------



## Akarin

Vik said:


> I guess you know that Con Moto since then has been 're-continued'?


At the time, it was not and I delivered my project using something else (go Berlin Strings!) I'll never look at this developer again even if it won't make a difference considering the amount of fanboyism he gets.


----------



## kgdrum

Akarin said:


> At the time, it was not and I delivered my project using something else (go Berlin Strings!) I'll never look at this developer again even if it won't make a difference considering the amount of fanboyism he gets.


Yeah this developer is totally upfront but has a very strange attitude offering absolutely no support for customers with the products and repeatedly discontinuing products.

I have never purchased anything on offer because of this.


----------



## Robert_G

robgb said:


> This thread is long and I'm sure I've mentioned Spitfire Studio Woodwinds Core, which I found pretty much useless for my tastes, but I went ahead and bought the upgrade to Pro for a 50% discount recently and while having the close mics certainly improves things, I'm still not in love with the library. Woodwind libraries are really hit and miss—mostly miss.


Now there is the @robgb that I'm used to seeing here.....waiting to post until after he gets his coffee. Here's to hoping you're having a better day than yesterday.🍻


----------



## Larbguy

Trash Panda said:


> Godspeed, gentlemen. The Spitfire army will be having a word with the both of you shortly.


"Spitfire Nation" has a more online influencer-y ring to it


----------



## Jrides

Akarin said:


> For me, it has to be Con Moto Cello. I bought it on release to support the developer even though I knew that I would not use it until at least all the sections were released. Once they were, I didn't really have a use for them so I didn't get them. And suddenly, a project came in where I could use that but the whole Con Moto line got discontinued in the meantime. I contacted the dev to see if he could still sell it to me but he said no.
> 
> I was severly disappointed but I still researched Vista instead (same dev.) Of all the demos I could hear and the free try-patch, I found that it was very noisy at low dynamics (a bit like CSS before the denoising in the 1.7 patch.) I've asked someone who posted a Vista track in a Facebook group how he dealt with the noise as this was the first I've heard without it. And the dev actually replied... ...with only a laughing emoji.
> 
> Discontinuing products instead of fixing them in order to tease new ones, refusing to help a customer that really wanted to support an independent dev, and then laughing at his face when he asks a valid question? Yeah, nothing to add. Who knows, maybe the next shiny-before-it-gets-abandoned one will have 2nd violins.





kgdrum said:


> Yeah this developer is totally upfront but has a very strange attitude offering absolutely no support for customers with the products and repeatedly discontinuing products.
> 
> I have never purchased anything on offer because of this.


Noted…


----------



## chocobitz825

all complaints are valid...

I tend to just find that no one library will satisfy all needs...and some of their bugs can ruin certain projects....but in context, every library can shine when used toward its strengths and quirky characteristics.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Akarin said:


> For me, it has to be Con Moto Cello. I bought it on release to support the developer even though I knew that I would not use it until at least all the sections were released. Once they were, I didn't really have a use for them so I didn't get them. And suddenly, a project came in where I could use that but the whole Con Moto line got discontinued in the meantime. I contacted the dev to see if he could still sell it to me but he said no.
> 
> I was severly disappointed but I still researched Vista instead (same dev.) Of all the demos I could hear and the free try-patch, I found that it was very noisy at low dynamics (a bit like CSS before the denoising in the 1.7 patch.) I've asked someone who posted a Vista track in a Facebook group how he dealt with the noise as this was the first I've heard without it. And the dev actually replied... ...with only a laughing emoji.
> 
> Discontinuing products instead of fixing them in order to tease new ones, refusing to help a customer that really wanted to support an independent dev, and then laughing at his face when he asks a valid question? Yeah, nothing to add. Who knows, maybe the next shiny-before-it-gets-abandoned one will have 2nd violins.


Denoising in CSS??
I'm only aware of the ambient mics being denoised. 
Now I'm worried there is even more...

Curious how exactly you know that Con Moto was discontinued to tease another project?
That's quite an accusation and I'm curious based on what it is made. Projection? Maybe you would do that? :D I think assumptions like that are more telling of how the persons mind works who makes it than the target.


----------



## Snarf

Akarin said:


> For me, it has to be Con Moto Cello. I bought it on release to support the developer even though I knew that I would not use it until at least all the sections were released. Once they were, I didn't really have a use for them so I didn't get them. And suddenly, a project came in where I could use that but the whole Con Moto line got discontinued in the meantime. I contacted the dev to see if he could still sell it to me but he said no.
> 
> I was severly disappointed but I still researched Vista instead (same dev.) Of all the demos I could hear and the free try-patch, I found that it was very noisy at low dynamics (a bit like CSS before the denoising in the 1.7 patch.) I've asked someone who posted a Vista track in a Facebook group how he dealt with the noise as this was the first I've heard without it. And the dev actually replied... ...with only a laughing emoji.
> 
> Discontinuing products instead of fixing them in order to tease new ones, refusing to help a customer that really wanted to support an independent dev, and then laughing at his face when he asks a valid question? Yeah, nothing to add. Who knows, maybe the next shiny-before-it-gets-abandoned one will have 2nd violins.


"Not for purists"
The noises are included on purpose. Jasper keeps noise reduction to a minimum to avoid ending up with the sterile and lifeless sound so endemic in samples.


----------



## Batrawi

Lionel Schmitt said:


> Curious how exactly you know that Con Moto was discontinued to tease another project?
> That's quite an accusation and I'm curious based on what it is made.


Isn't that what "seemed" to happen after all? with all the other libraries/projects promoted afterwards and that were ironically (coincidently?) filling a similar need to what has been discontinued in the meantime?! Now regardless if this was the dev's intention or not, it still had a bad impact on the guy as a professional consumer (and maybe others) as he logically concluded form his unfortunate experience... So being annoyed is his least right and I think calling it an "accusation" is an accusation in itself! Let alone that teasers (along with the evil twists potentially associated with them) are still a legit marketing/sales strategy that are far from being unusual nowadays... so technically, one cannot "accuse" a dev of following such strategy.


----------



## Sombreuil

jbuhler said:


> I feel this way about Landforms.


Andrew Tasselmyer uses both Cycles & Landforms a lot. What he does with these plugins is mindblowing.


----------



## Lionel Schmitt

Batrawi said:


> Isn't that what "seemed" to happen after all? with all the other libraries/projects promoted afterwards and that were ironically (coincidently?) filling a similar need to what has been discontinued in the meantime?! Now regardless if this was the dev's intention or not, it still had a bad impact on the guy as a professional consumer (and maybe others) as he logically concluded form his unfortunate experience... So being annoyed is his least right and I think calling it an "accusation" is an accusation in itself! Let alone that teasers (along with the evil twists potentially associated with them) are still a legit marketing/sales strategy that are far from being unusual nowadays... so technically, one cannot "accuse" a dev of following such strategy.


well with that logic a developer can never discontinue products because of potential "bad impacts on professional customers".
Maybe a bit dramatic?
They were around for quite a long while and as far as I remember there was an announcement and sale long before they were discontinued. As someone who seems to be quite involved in the sample world I'm surprised this escaped him. If it didn't then it's his fault for letting that opportunity pass.

At the end when accusing anyone of ill will without knowing anything it's an accusation, not just being annoyed.
Also, just because something is common doesn't mean it's reasonable to assume any individual is doing it. That's a very strange logic. That way everyone in a criminal area can be considered a criminal, and it's not even an accusation because "crime is far from unusual in that area".

And my accusation is fair because the evidence to support it is in the post I was responding to.


----------



## Trash Panda

What compels people to flock to their favorite developer’s defense in a thread dedicated to people airing grievances?

Your favorite dev will be just fine without you white knighting for them.


----------



## chocobitz825

classic vi-control ranting and raving. 

stay classy san diego!


----------



## HotCoffee

Akarin said:


> At the time, it was not and I delivered my project using something else (go Berlin Strings!) I'll never look at this developer again even if it won't make a difference considering the amount of fanboyism he gets.


I will support you by also passing on this dev. Cocky developers is a pet peeve of mine.


----------



## Futchibon

Akarin said:


> I'll never look at this developer again even if it won't make a difference considering the amount of fanboyism he gets.


What fanboyism?


----------



## jbuhler

Sombreuil said:


> Andrew Tasselmyer uses both Cycles & Landforms a lot. What he does with these plugins is mindblowing.


Which means almost nothing, especially on a thread about regrets. 

Every library isn’t for everyone, and almost every library will have its supporters and detractors. Landforms sounds cool enough in the abstract. I wouldn’t have bought it if I wasn’t hearing something I thought I could use in the demos and walkthroughs. But I find it hard to get useful results and I don’t find it especially fun to noodle around with. It’s rather a chore in fact and the library’s included instruments are not deeply sampled, so it mandates a lot of mangling and processing to find useful sounds. I have nothing against mangling sounds and often find it fun, but Landforms is not set up in a way that works well for me. All of this means it’s not a library I find inspiring to work with. 

Landforms is also not exactly intuitive so you have a lot of things to relearn each time you return to it. I would say that Landforms would likely work well for someone who was using it on a very regular basis or who find the design intuitive but it’s not a great choice for someone like me who finds its design less than intuitive and would use it only on a very occasional basis.


----------



## TonalDynamics

jbuhler said:


> and the library’s included instruments are not deeply sampled


^This is the essence of why a great many 'ease-of-use' libraries are of no interest to me, because they do a very different thing than what I need; I write for the instrument (or say, for the 'class' of instrument), and want to be able to layer expressive performances.

But most of these sorts of libraries seem to be designed for someone to hold down a 3/4 note chord, or in many cases just a single note, and literally have the entire sonic landscape instantly filled, whether in terms of frequency, note attack density, verb/FX, etc.

It's just not useful if you're actually writing music with a lot of different parts, because in most cases there simply isn't enough _room_ left in the mix to put anything else in, and like you say even on those patches where instruments themselves are the focus they aren't deeply sampled because the vast majority of GB within the library are spent on these long looping textural samples.

People sometimes say 'Yeah but it's great for sketching', maybe... I'll stick with my piano, though.
(I've yet to be convinced that there is _any_ tool in existence better for sketching ideas than a piano, and this is coming from a lifelong guitarist)

That being said, the type of textural libraries I DO find useful are stuff like Albion *Tundra* and *Solstice *-- because although they do have that textural focus, they _also_ have brilliant deeply-sampled instruments that have a life of their own (I keep saying it but I can't get over how good the close mics in Solstice sound, I wish they would sample another project at the same studio)

And many of the low notes sampled in Tundra are _absolutely _lovely for layering in as texture or ambience.

Cheers


----------



## Loïc D

People expressing disappointment about the libraries they own now are just looking for excuses for the coming Black Friday GAS. 😜💸


----------



## jbuhler

TonalDynamics said:


> ^This is the essence of why a great many 'ease-of-use' libraries are of no interest to me, because they do a very different thing than what I need; I write for the instrument (or say, for the 'class' of instrument), and want to be able to layer expressive performances.
> 
> But most of these sorts of libraries seem to be designed for someone to hold down a 3/4 note chord, or in many cases just a single note, and literally have the entire sonic landscape instantly filled, whether in terms of frequency, note attack density, verb/FX, etc.
> 
> It's just not useful if you're actually writing music with a lot of different parts, because in most cases there simply isn't enough _room_ left in the mix to put anything else in, and like you say even on those patches where instruments themselves are the focus they aren't deeply sampled because the vast majority of GB within the library are spent on these long looping textural samples.
> 
> People sometimes say 'Yeah but it's great for sketching', maybe... I'll stick with my piano, though.
> (I've yet to be convinced that there is _any_ tool in existence better for sketching ideas than a piano, and this is coming from a lifelong guitarist)
> 
> That being said, the type of textural libraries I DO find useful are stuff like Albion *Tundra* and *Solstice *-- because although they do have that textural focus, they _also_ have brilliant deeply-sampled instruments that have a life of their own (I keep saying it but I can't get over how good the close mics in Solstice sound, I wish they would sample another project at the same studio)
> 
> And many of the low notes sampled in Tundra are _absolutely _lovely for layering in as texture or ambience.
> 
> Cheers



You can also build an effects rack in your DAW and get a good deal of the functionality of Landforms with more deeply sampled instruments. I’ve found the positioning functionality of Landforms, which is actually quite slick, harder to replicate with other plugins, but the other stuff you can use midi fix and audio fx plugins to get very similar results and you aren’t bound to the Landforms samples. (Landforms does let you add your own samples but it relies on stretching a few samples so its capabilities are more limited.)


----------



## Snarf

Futchibon said:


> What fanboyism?


All hail our lord and saviour, Jasper Blunk!


----------



## TonalDynamics

jbuhler said:


> You can also build an effects rack in your DAW and get a good deal of the functionality of Landforms with more deeply sampled instruments. I’ve found the positioning functionality of Landforms, which is actually quite slick, harder to replicate with other plugins, but the other stuff you can use midi fix and audio fx plugins to get very similar results and you aren’t bound to the Landforms samples. (Landforms does let you add your own samples but it relies on stretching a few samples so its capabilities are more limited.)


For sure, this is why granular plugins are so interesting to me as well...

I've yet to do a proper experimentation with those concepts, though (running external samples through a granular FX VST) .

Another one of those things on my miles-long to-do list!


----------



## Sombreuil

jbuhler said:


> Which means almost nothing, especially on a thread about regrets.
> 
> Every library isn’t for everyone, and almost every library will have its supporters and detractors. Landforms sounds cool enough in the abstract. I wouldn’t have bought it if I wasn’t hearing something I thought I could use in the demos and walkthroughs. But I find it hard to get useful results and I don’t find it especially fun to noodle around with. It’s rather a chore in fact and the library’s included instruments are not deeply sampled, so it mandates a lot of mangling and processing to find useful sounds. I have nothing against mangling sounds and often find it fun, but Landforms is not set up in a way that works well for me. All of this means it’s not a library I find inspiring to work with.
> 
> Landforms is also not exactly intuitive so you have a lot of things to relearn each time you return to it. I would say that Landforms would likely work well for someone who was using it on a very regular basis or who find the design intuitive but it’s not a great choice for someone like me who finds its design less than intuitive and would use it only on a very occasional basis.


Oh yeah, definitely. One thing though, what makes Slate & Ash really interesting IMO, is that importing your own sample is where their products really shine. Also, I'd say that they're aiming composers who do a lot of re-sampling with granular synthesis, tape compression, etc.


----------



## jbuhler

Sombreuil said:


> Oh yeah, definitely. One thing though, what makes Slate & Ash really interesting IMO, is that importing your own sample is where their products really shine. Also, I'd say that they're aiming composers who do a lot of re-sampling with granular synthesis, tape compression, etc.


Sure, if you are happy with one sample per microphone position—I'm not at my machine right now, but I recall you can import and access six samples total in any one instance. That's a lot of stretching that will be taking place. And you can do much of the mangling and stuff with a set of plug-ins on a more robust sample set. Indeed, I'd say that you can build your own plug-in rack in the DAW that is more versatile, has better workflow, and generally sounds better. So what Landforms offers with your own samples is less distinct than it seems. And it's not exactly inexpensive, even if you get it on sale. I think you can resell it, so at least there's that.


----------



## SupremeFist

jbuhler said:


> Sure, if you are happy with one sample per microphone position—I'm not at my machine right now, but I recall you can import and access six samples total in any one instance. That's a lot of stretching that will be taking place. And you can do much of the mangling and stuff with a set of plug-ins on a more robust sample set. Indeed, I'd say that you can build your own plug-in rack in the DAW that is more versatile, has better workflow, and generally sounds better. So what Landforms offers with your own samples is less distinct than it seems. And it's not exactly inexpensive, even if you get it on sale. I think you can resell it, so at least there's that.


Yes with my limited experiments subjecting samples from eg BBCSO to Logic's StepFX and PhatFX (formerly Camel) etc I decided at the time that I didn't need Landforms doing a similar kind of thing for me on a shallower sample base. But then I guess it's also relevant how often you use that kind of sound?


----------



## tsk

jbuhler said:


> Which means almost nothing, especially on a thread about regrets.
> 
> Every library isn’t for everyone, and almost every library will have its supporters and detractors. Landforms sounds cool enough in the abstract. I wouldn’t have bought it if I wasn’t hearing something I thought I could use in the demos and walkthroughs. But I find it hard to get useful results and I don’t find it especially fun to noodle around with. It’s rather a chore in fact and the library’s included instruments are not deeply sampled, so it mandates a lot of mangling and processing to find useful sounds. I have nothing against mangling sounds and often find it fun, but Landforms is not set up in a way that works well for me. All of this means it’s not a library I find inspiring to work with.
> 
> Landforms is also not exactly intuitive so you have a lot of things to relearn each time you return to it. I would say that Landforms would likely work well for someone who was using it on a very regular basis or who find the design intuitive but it’s not a great choice for someone like me who finds its design less than intuitive and would use it only on a very occasional basis.


As the starter of this thread, I want to thank you for this informal review of Landforms. I had my eye on it but I can see my gut feeling that I wouldn't find it very useful in day to day work is likely true. And it ain't cheap.


----------



## Peter Satera

It's interesting that most disappointing library purchases sometimes becomes a discussion on developers. Its quite beneficial for customers.

I feel like with all the bad press though for developers and alternative "praise the developer' thread is needed, so we can share our fantastic stories of excellent customer support or experiences. 

For me Audio Ollie (Ollie), has been nothing short of outstanding every time I contact him. Others too have been awesome and I'd like to think others have had great experiences too worth sharing.


----------



## Jrides

Peter Satera said:


> It's interesting that most disappointing library purchases sometimes becomes a discussion on developers. Its quite beneficial for customers.
> 
> I feel like with all the bad press though for developers and alternative "praise the developer' thread is needed, so we can share our fantastic stories of excellent customer support or experiences.



isn’t that almost every other thread on this forum no? Hype, praise, fan boying out to the highest level. The (year plus?) long thread about a library that has not even come out yet lol. I came into this thread to get away from all that. The constant hype machine and developer nut hugging.


----------



## STMICHAELS

Peter Satera said:


> It's interesting that most disappointing library purchases sometimes becomes a discussion on developers. Its quite beneficial for customers.
> 
> I feel like with all the bad press though for developers and alternative "praise the developer' thread is needed, so we can share our fantastic stories of excellent customer support or experiences.
> 
> For me Audio Ollie (Ollie), has been nothing short of outstanding every time I contact him. Others too have been awesome and I'd like to think others have had great experiences too worth sharing.


I like this. The human behavior tends to lead on the pessimistic side, doesn't it? Have many words when something is not right. But if it isn't right it needs to be said! 

Even though we are reading about disappointing libraries, what I do like about this particular thread is the detail on "why" folks find it disappointing. I like that a lot because it becomes informative.

I would love to see a thread similar to this but flipped _opposite_ on Most Rewarding Library purchase and "why". Is it the sound, playability, inspiration, customer services etc.

I see many threads just list things and I think if someone describes why they truly find it rewarding or a keeper it will be very informational. I think the thread "If you lost it all what would you buy" is kind of there but also not....


But I do like this thread - Its kinda fun...


----------



## Bman70




----------



## Akarin

Bman70 said:


>


Oh? You don't use VSL and Orchestral Tools? I could write a book on positive experiences with these two.


----------



## bfreepro

Akarin said:


> Oh? You don't use VSL and Orchestral Tools? I could write a book on positive experiences with these two.


_Edited to add more details and context on my disapproval of OT's attitude towards products and customers._

VSL is great. Spitfire support is great regardless if you like their products of not. OT is one of my least favorite when it comes to updates, support, etc. _SINE is literally broken for me right now_ and there's a known "bug" where if you minimize the app when something is downloading it crashes my entire DAW. They say it's a known issue and has been for a long while now. Might be good to have that info like, in really big print, before someone, I dunno, loses progress on a track because they decided to download one of their purchased instruments in the way it was intended to be downloaded? They are archaic with bug fixes because I've seen other companies issue hot fixes for known issues within hours and acknowledge issues and warn users if there will be any compatibility or game-breaking bugs like that.

Great sounds tho, just want to add my own experience here lol. Been back and forth with their support about 4 times for different issues, and the support people are nice and helpful, it's just the company philosophy that is frustrating. They have never once admitted fault or apologized for any issues their software/products are causing to the user. Little things like that go a LONG way. Talk about never updating things they know aren't right, I've had them hear the issues I was describing in Ark 1 and just say "well you're the first person to ever say this and I don't hear anything wrong at all" even after I directed them to a long thread of similar experiences here on VI control lol. Then they did shift their stance and say "okay yes, maybe we could have been better with the timing of the short notes" after already saying there's absolutely nothing wrong and implying I'm nitpicking and just not appreciative of how hard it is to sample an orchestra. I've seen this attitude permeate through their presence here on VI Control and also from other user experiences and it's quite frankly, a really shitty way to do business IMO, especially when their products cost what they do, they're the most expensive by far along with VSL. And this is not to attack your views or belittle your experience Nico, I totally respect your opinion and contributions here (unlike some others)


----------



## Akarin

bfreepro said:


> VSL is great. Spitfire support is great regardless if you like their products of not. OT is one of my least favorite when it comes to updates, support, etc. SINE is literally broken for me right now and there's a known "bug" where if you minimize the app when something is downloading it crashes my entire DAW. Might be good to have that info like, in really big print, before someone, I dunno, loses progress on a track because they decided to download one of their purchased instruments in the way it was intended to be downloaded? They are archaic with bug fixes because I've seen other companies issue hot fixes for known issues in hours. Great sounds tho, just want to add my own experience here lol.


Agreed on Spitfire support. They have been nothing short of outstanding. (how can they hire such rockstars for support, and such twats for marketing?)


----------



## bfreepro

Akarin said:


> Agreed on Spitfire support. They have been nothing short of outstanding. (how can they hire such rockstars for support, and such twats for marketing?)


Their support represents a new echelon. Curated from priceless sperm and eggs, then molded into bespoke marketeers capable of handling the most delicate whisper to the throatiest shout from high upon the mountainside.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Peter Satera said:


> It's interesting that most disappointing library purchases sometimes becomes a discussion on developers. Its quite beneficial for customers.
> 
> I feel like with all the bad press though for developers and alternative "praise the developer' thread is needed, so we can share our fantastic stories of excellent customer support or experiences.


I feel like when we actually start discussing things like this, it kind of exposes the 'gaps' in the market that are left relatively open by various devs at the current phase of the game... I honestly feel like the physical modeling + samples approach is the way of the future at this point after seeing what IB and IW are capable of.

There's a reason Aaron's thread is probably the longest on the forum, because what he's doing is the most innovative thing probably since OG Kontakt came out and devs started making superior libraries for it.

Most of the other devs are floundering (most notably Kontakt itself), with the exception of the odd release here and there.


----------



## Jrides

STMICHAELS said:


> I like this. The human behavior tends to lead on the pessimistic side, doesn't it? Have many words when something is not right. But if it isn't right it needs to be said!
> 
> Even though we are reading about disappointing libraries, what I do like about this particular thread is the detail on "why" folks find it disappointing. I like that a lot because it becomes informative.
> 
> I would love to see a thread similar to this but flipped _opposite_ on Most Rewarding Library purchase and "why". Is it the sound, playability, inspiration, customer services etc.
> 
> I see many threads just list things and I think if someone describes why they truly find it rewarding or a keeper it will be very informational. I think the thread "If you lost it all what would you buy" is kind of there but also not....
> 
> 
> But I do like this thread - Its kinda fun...


This type of topic comes up quite often. Not to mention the shameless fanboy threads and others like that around any particular developer.







What are some of your particularly positive service/support experiences in the Sample world?


Who deserves a nod? Say good things here.




vi-control.net


----------



## Peter Satera

Jrides said:


> isn’t that almost every other thread on this forum no? Hype, praise, fan boying out to the highest level. The (year plus?) long thread about a library that has not even come out yet lol. I came into this thread to get away from all that. The constant hype machine and developer nut hugging.


I think when it's a discussion based around praise and merit toward developers there should be clear reasoning behind it, a story to tell if you have one. Rather than the excitement for upcoming libraries, we all have that but it does nothing to justify a readers trust in a developer.
As Akarin has said, Spitfire's support has been excellent, for me too. They've been quick at getting back to me, and although it takes them time to repair issues I mentioned to them they've been great at listening to problems and correcting them.

I dunno it's just a passing thought...with all the negativity that surrounds me as of late (stress at _work has a lot to do with that_), I just want to feel a bit happier...and reading a thread about how the libraries (or even developer support) don't live up to our hard earned cash we put in to them is justified, as it creates awareness, but a it's a real downer, as it can create uncertainty where we spend our cash, significantly_ *it's negative PR*_. It makes me think, where's the other side of it? Somewhere we actively can read some feel-good stories about dev's, not just a single 100 pager going on about a library.

Spitfire gifted me Tundra during a giveaway-time, simply because I was helpful on their social media to other users. I don't take that sorta thing for granted! Another developer just gave me a library for free, for being a good customer, and it was so kind of them and an amazing gesture! but it's not like many would hear about it.

We can all be keyboard warriors when something rattles our cage but behind these companies there are people, and those people have lives and families, negativity in a thread like has implications. If anything a thread or discussion with a positive experience would give us more certainty in the investment we make in them.


----------



## Trash Panda

Peter Satera said:


> I dunno it's just a passing thought...with all the negativity that surrounds me as of late (stress at _work has a lot to do with that_), I just want to feel a bit happier...and reading a thread about how the libraries (or even developer support) don't live up to our hard earned cash we put in to them is justified, as it creates awareness, but a it's a real downer, as it can create uncertainty where we spend our cash, significantly_ *it's negative PR*_.


So put this thread on ignore if it bums you out. I had to quit Facebook in 2020 and beg my wife to stop having cable news TV on in the background all the time because of the overwhelming negativity. It's possible to self-moderate what content you consume.


----------



## STMICHAELS

Trash Panda said:


> So put this thread on ignore if it bums you out. I had to quit Facebook in 2020 and beg my wife to stop having cable news TV on in the background all the time because of the overwhelming negativity. It's possible to self-moderate what content you consume.


I created a new thread:
Most Rewarding/Keeper Library Purchase and Why?​​Feel free to contribute as we can now choose which mood we are in​


----------



## Peter Satera

Trash Panda said:


> So put this thread on ignore if it bums you out. I had to quit Facebook in 2020 and beg my wife to stop having cable news TV on in the background all the time because of the overwhelming negativity. It's possible to self-moderate what content you consume.


I've made more than just one point if it bums me out, But you are right about moderation. I funnily enough also stopped putting on the 6'oclock news, to eat infront of negativity. But I'm a big boy, and it's not really about my precious little feelings. 

I'm pragmatic, and I am aware of it's importance to inform us, as I state it's justified, which is why I am not complaining about the thread, it's an interesting and educational read!  I'm simply stating that there is obviously general negativity toward libraries and developers which are influential to our perception if it were to remain single sided, and there is little 'counter views' other than excitement for the libraries, which is not the same thing.

I suppose I'm thinking more than just 'good job lib dev'. But a more 'share your positive experience'.
I think general positive experiences are worth sharing, and I'm a sponge for information. The likes of - people with experiences with developers, but also other experiences, such as, those that get to ghost write or have an opportunity to work with mentors or idols (it was great to chat to Daniel about working with Tom Holkenborg) . Other examples too, such as, David Kudell, did he not get a 1 to 1 with Ramin Djawadi about his video? I think an experience like that would be amazing to hear about it! These stories would be awesome fuel for creativity and careers. Just look at how we enjoy when Charlie Clouser shares a small snippet of his journey with Chas Smith. Or, like this *round-table* with composers is great, full of great information and experiences (there's a few hollywood reporter ones too!).

There is no doubt in my mind many experienced composers here have many things they could share, and I find the possibility of reading about it quite exciting, but I might be the only one that gives a s***. 


[Edit] I dunno about others, but I'd love to see a making of some of these huge libraries, such as Abbey Road Modular, just the whole approach to it all, stick a camera there, record the meetings and make an really interesting 'How-it-was made'. It'll give appreciation for it when it comes. Spitfire tap into this, with videos like The Stack. I'm not asking people to make videos, but hopefully you'll get where I am coming from.


----------



## Jrides

Trash Panda said:


> So put this thread on ignore if it bums you out. I had to quit Facebook in 2020 and beg my wife to stop having cable news TV on in the background all the time because of the overwhelming negativity. It's possible to self-moderate what content you consume.


100% this! I would be surprised if I had more than seven or eight Facebook posts in the last five years lol.


----------



## Jrides

Peter Satera said:


> I've made more than just one point if it bums me out, But you are right about moderation. I funnily enough also stopped putting on the 6'oclock news, to eat infront of negativity. But I'm a big boy, and it's not really about my precious little feelings.
> 
> I'm pragmatic, and I am aware of it's importance to inform us, as I state it's justified, which is why I am not complaining about the thread, it's an interesting and educational read!  I'm simply stating that there is obviously general negativity toward libraries and developers which are influential to our perception if it were to remain single sided, and there is little 'counter views' other than excitement for the libraries, which is not the same thing.
> 
> I suppose I'm thinking more than just 'good job lib dev'. But a more 'share your positive experience'.
> I think general positive experiences are worth sharing, and I'm a sponge for information. The likes of - people with experiences with developers, but also other experiences, such as, those that get to ghost write or have an opportunity to work with mentors or idols (it was great to chat to Daniel about working with Tom Holkenborg) . Other examples too, such as, David Kudell, did he not get a 1 to 1 with Ramin Djawadi about his video? I think an experience like that would be amazing to hear about it! These stories would be awesome fuel for creativity and careers. Just look at how we enjoy when Charlie Clouser shares a small snippet of his journey with Chas Smith. Or, like this *round-table* with composers is great, full of great information and experiences (there's a few hollywood reporter ones too!).
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind many experienced composers here have many things they could share, and I find the possibility of reading about it quite exciting, but I might be the only one that gives a s***.



here you go… In case you missed it. enjoy.








What are some of your particularly positive service/support experiences in the Sample world?


Who deserves a nod? Say good things here.




vi-control.net






As you can see… I participated in that thread as well. But right now I’m here for this one. also… Notice how people who had a negative experience with those manufacturers and developers didn’t bombard that thread with complaints about the overwhelming positivity and how unrealistic it is. Pining for a more negative slanted thread to expose the underbelly of the sample world. No one‘s complaining about how positive the threat is. People of a different opinion or mood just did not participate.


----------



## Peter Satera

Jrides said:


> here you go… In case you missed it. enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are some of your particularly positive service/support experiences in the Sample world?
> 
> 
> Who deserves a nod? Say good things here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vi-control.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see… I participated in that thread as well. But right now I’m here for this one.


Had no idea that existed - thanks for sharing! Hilarious that it's 2 pages long versus the 68 negative thread. XD

[Edit]


Jrides said:


> No one‘s complaining about how positive the threat is. People of a different opinion or mood just did not participate.


Apologies. I'll take my positivity elsewhere.  Joking aside - I'm totally fine with this thread btw.


----------



## Mistro

Loïc D said:


> People expressing disappointment about the libraries they own now are just looking for excuses for the coming Black Friday GAS. 😜💸


I'm actually quickly skim-reading through this thread to see what not to buy next month


----------



## asherpope

Loïc D said:


> People expressing disappointment about the libraries they own now are just looking for excuses for the coming Black Friday GAS. 😜💸


True. "THIS will be the library that finally does what I need "


----------



## TonalDynamics

Peter Satera said:


> Somewhere we actively can read some feel-good stories about dev's, not just a single 100 pager going on about a library.


I gotta be honest here, if you're looking for a source of positivity and feel-good stories, companies and businesses are probably _not_ gonna be your best resource.

There are individuals, friends, families, great works of classic (and occasionally modern) art and literature, and even countless threads on this very forum for that sort of thing (and escapism _is_ valuable, perhaps more than ever in these dark days)


Peter Satera said:


> We can all be keyboard warriors when something rattles our cage but behind these companies there are people, and those people have lives and families, negativity in a thread like has implications. If anything a thread or discussion with a positive experience would give us more certainty in the investment we make in them.


I find this to be an _incredibly_ dangerous train of thought, because in classifying the critical voices as 'keyboard warriors', you are simultaneously dismissing them as not having any skin in the game and deeming their criticisms invalid, when they did in fact spend their hard-earned money on whatever product, same as you.

Maybe they were even unfortunate enough to miss that sale and ended up paying _full_ price, and thus have even higher expectations of the developers (whether this is rational or not is another discussion)

Again, the 'devs' are businessmen, first and foremost -- NOT your friends, and in some cases hardly even your ally. This naturally makes the devs who _do _have excellent support, communication, and regular updates (Alex Wallbank and Aaron being great examples) even more cherished among a userbase -- but they are the exception, not the norm.

The developer's task is not that dissimilar to an artist's, in that the onus is on them to provide something good enough to gain people's loyalty; this is _earned_, not presumed or bestowed.

You're seemingly worried about some companies' theoretical loss of revenue by turning a potential buyer away from their product...

I am more worried about an individual, possibly with very limited funds, making a mistake by purchasing a library that is over-hyped, filled with longstanding bugs, bad communication, support, failure to listen to FRs, etc.

And what if these criticisms actually cause the devs to _listen_ for a change, and either respond to user demand or provide more regular updates, improve their support systems, etc.? Then a net-gain has been had, and both the developer and the user profit in tandem.

*Thus I would suggest that neither positivity nor negativity should be pursued in such cases, but rather objectivity.*

I know it's more boring and might not provide the same dopamine release as feel-good stories, but it just _might_ save someone a lot of money, and even make them happier in the long run by helping them buy what they really need, and avoid the stuff they don't... and there will always be those endless other places with 'feel-good' content in any case 

*(Objective)* Criticism is _supposed_ to rattle cages, and the devs have no more right to be immune to its effects than we do as artists.

Cheers


----------



## Bman70

STMICHAELS said:


> I created a new thread:
> Most Rewarding/Keeper Library Purchase and Why?​​Feel free to contribute as we can now choose which mood we are in​


Can you also link to this thread in your new thread?  I mean assuming the threads are related somehow.


----------



## Loïc D

Now that I think about it, the most disappointing library was the one I tried to create from samples of my good old Yamaha SY-35 (no joke!).

Not only were the sounds boring but it was also poorly programmed.

I had to reimburse myself after much debate.


----------



## Michel Simons

Loïc D said:


> Now that I think about it, the most disappointing library was the one I tried to create from samples of my good old Yamaha SY-35 (no joke!).
> 
> Not only were the sounds boring but it was also poorly programmed.
> 
> I had to reimburse myself after much debate.


Ah, the SY-35. Those were the days.


----------



## Loïc D

Michel Simons said:


> Ah, the SY-35. Those were the days.


I still have it parked in my studio and in working condition. I even cleaned the keybed and buttons contact.
This weak beast will outlive me.


----------



## OHjorth

I like a lot of 8dio stuff (Century, adagio) but emotional guitars was not worth the price.


----------



## TonalDynamics

Loïc D said:


> Now that I think about it, the most disappointing library was the one I tried to create from samples of my good old Yamaha SY-35 (no joke!).
> 
> Not only were the sounds boring but it was also poorly programmed.
> 
> I had to reimburse myself after much debate.


Heh, reminds me of that time I tried to make a playable Kontakt instrument out of some old rare GIGAPACK sample CD I found online, with like 12 harp samples to stretch across the whole keybed... it took me about an hour of learning how to make a Kontakt instrument from scratch, for me to realize I did not actually want to learn how to make a Kontakt instrument from scratch.

Failed experiments still have value, though


----------



## Peter Satera

TonalDynamics said:


> I gotta be honest here, if you're looking for a source of positivity and feel-good stories, companies and businesses are probably _not_ gonna be your best resource.
> 
> There are individuals, friends, families, great works of classic (and occasionally modern) art and literature, and even countless threads on this very forum for that sort of thing (and escapism _is_ valuable, perhaps more than ever in these dark days)
> 
> I find this to be an _incredibly_ dangerous train of thought, because in classifying the critical voices as 'keyboard warriors', you are simultaneously dismissing them as not having any skin in the game and deeming their criticisms invalid, when they did in fact spend their hard-earned money on whatever product, same as you.
> 
> Maybe they were even unfortunate enough to miss that sale and ended up paying _full_ price, and thus have even higher expectations of the developers (whether this is rational or not is another discussion)
> 
> Again, the 'devs' are businessmen, first and foremost -- NOT your friends, and in some cases hardly even your ally. This naturally makes the devs who _do _have excellent support, communication, and regular updates (Alex Wallbank and Aaron being great examples) even more cherished among a userbase -- but they are the exception, not the norm.
> 
> The developer's task is not that dissimilar to an artist's, in that the onus is on them to provide something good enough to gain people's loyalty; this is _earned_, not presumed or bestowed.
> 
> You're seemingly worried about some companies' theoretical loss of revenue by turning a potential buyer away from their product...
> 
> I am more worried about an individual, possibly with very limited funds, making a mistake by purchasing a library that is over-hyped, filled with longstanding bugs, bad communication, support, failure to listen to FRs, etc.
> 
> And what if these criticisms actually cause the devs to _listen_ for a change, and either respond to user demand or provide more regular updates, improve their support systems, etc.? Then a net-gain has been had, and both the developer and the user profit in tandem.
> 
> *Thus I would suggest that neither positivity nor negativity should be pursued in such cases, but rather objectivity.*
> 
> I know it's more boring and might not provide the same dopamine release as feel-good stories, but it just _might_ save someone a lot of money, and even make them happier in the long run by helping them buy what they really need, and avoid the stuff they don't... and there will always be those endless other places with 'feel-good' content in any case
> 
> *(Objective)* Criticism is _supposed_ to rattle cages, and the devs have no more right to be immune to its effects than we do as artists.
> 
> Cheers


I don't think you grasped the issues of *only* dwelling on negative that I discussed. You've taken my own argument which is *in favour of objectivity and balance *and used it against me.

You've taken a very small paragraph of my discussion, and twisted it in an accusatory way that I'm against the consumer, to falsely claim im opposed the objective of negative PR, which is frankly a lot of BS. This is now the third time I have said that I'm fine with the thread. Didn't quote that. Did you?

I don't like my words taken out of context. Your isolation of a very small segment of my comments, twisted to perceive me only in favour of good-news only generates inaccuracies of what I was getting at, which was simply '*opportunity to post equal positive occurrences to inform us, the buyers'*. I see you completely neglect the points I made about positive activity in general, pro composer roundtables or making-of of these libraries. Or how positivity informs of good company behaviour, which is again pro-consumer, as it gives everyone knowledge of trustworthy Devs.


----------



## Larbguy

I've second-guessed my Con Moto Basses purchase since I got it on sale for the sole purpose of qualifying for the Pacific Strings Loyalty discount


----------



## peterharket

My biggest disappointments:
Requiem & Liberis from 8Dio
Chris Hein Horns Pro Complete
Acou6tics & Electri6ity from Vir2
Voices & Rapture + Voices & Gaia from Soundiron

I might have had too high expectations, and not done enough research (some of these libraries are really old, which is a tell-tale sign), but that does not detract from the pain of opening up a brand new library only to be met by a massive disappointment... One of the issues is that there are truly some amazing gems out there (LASS is my favourite library of all time and that is 13 years old), and you really don't know what you are getting before you buy. Only problem is that with the lack of trials/refunds/resales there is no way of undoing a purchase if you got a dud instead of a gem.

I'm really rooting for some legislation that forces refunds of digital digital products the way it works for physical products (at least in the EU), but I'm not holding my breath... What is NOT okay is the false advertisement which is illegal and hit very hard here in Denmark. As an example, how 8Dio can slap "polyphonic legato" on their libraries without feeling utterly ashamed is beyond me, as you cannot use them with the sustain pedal. How are you supposed to change a chord - therein the polyphony - if you can't hold it long enough to lay down a new one?

It really feels like greed has gotten the better of some of these companies. The content of the free Alpine Project left a smile on my face, diametrically opposite to the utter horror I felt after opening one of the above-mentioned libraries which I have dropped several hundreds of dollars on - which I am constantly reminded of whenever I see them in the library tab.

What I am about to do might come across as uncomfortable for some, and might be taken down for all I know, but it is meant constructively, as feedback is the only way developers can change - but here it goes: @Troels Folmann I would recommend you read through this thread, as 8Dio by far is the company mentioned with the most disappointing libraries (also enforced by my own experience). It might be more profitable to have one-off purchases that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but I truly believe that there is something to be said for building a long-term relationship instead - but that choice is up to you and how you run and advertise your business.

Peter Harket


----------



## TonalDynamics

Peter Satera said:


> I don't like my words taken out of context. Your isolation of a very small segment of my comments, twisted to perceive me only in favour of good-news only generates inaccuracies of what I was getting at, which was simply '*opportunity to post equal positive occurrences to inform us, the buyers'*. I see you completely neglect the points I made about positive activity in general, pro composer roundtables or making-of of these libraries. Or how positivity informs of good company behaviour, which is again pro-consumer, as it gives everyone knowledge of trustworthy Devs.


There's literally a billion of those threads already, though. A quick search will lead you to any number of them. My reply was specifically addressed to the thoughts you shared contained within the single post I quoted.

Also I didn't read all your subsequent posts on the matter, which does reveal your concern for the plight of the consumer (which is very real)... but then, you can't expect everyone to read every single one of your posts in a thread; all we can do is reply to the posts that we _do_ read, which is what I did.

Case in point, if an entire _post_ of yours can be taken out of context as you say, you might want to think about editing that post to be more clear on what you mean, otherwise you are just inviting miscommunication.

If you had edited your OP to more accurately reflect your position, I probably wouldn't even have felt compelled to respond... but by the tone you employed with the 'keyboard warriors' comment, I felt like you were initially being too dismissive of critical voices (and still do)

Cheers


----------



## Peter Satera

TonalDynamics said:


> There's literally a billion of those threads already, though. A quick search will lead you to any number of them. My reply was specifically addressed to the thoughts you shared contained within the single post I quoted.
> 
> Also I didn't read all your subsequent posts on the matter, which does reveal your concern for the plight of the consumer (which is very real)... but then, you can't expect everyone to read every single one of your posts in a thread; all we can do is reply to the posts that we _do_ read, which is what I did.
> 
> Case in point, if an entire _post_ of yours can be taken out of context as you say, you might want to think about editing that post to be more clear on what you mean, otherwise you are just inviting miscommunication.
> 
> If you had edited your OP to more accurately reflect your position, I probably wouldn't even have felt compelled to respond... but by the tone you employed with the 'keyboard warriors' comment, I felt like you were initially being too dismissive of critical voices (and still do)
> 
> Cheers



You evidently read the first post then, so you knew what I was discussing, to see if there was any interest for us to post an opposing opinion, *not* to silence the existing one. *You deleted it out from the same post* before using it in your quote:



Peter Satera said:


> Reading a thread about how the libraries (or even developer support) don't live up to our *hard earned cash we put in to them is justified, as it creates awareness*.


This is what I mean you are unjustly misquoting me, twisting my words. To delete out parts of my post. Now saying you didn't bother to read on and felt you have enough to claim to perceive my view as "incredibly dangerous train of thought'. Now, in hindsight you've said my concerns for the customer are clear.

You seemed to be ruffled by the phrase 'we can all be keyboard warriors'. If so, I'm sorry you found that too harsh. The absurdity of it all is...you didn't need to read further to grasp my point, *just look at the quote you chose to focus on*. It directly is _pro-consumer_, not pro-company.



Peter Satera said:


> If anything a thread or discussion with a positive experience *would give us more certainty in the investment we make in them*.


Can we move on now?


----------



## TonalDynamics

Peter Satera said:


> Can we move on now?


Way ahead of ya.


----------



## Flintpope

Always preferred Messerschmitt myself


----------



## baptiste_palacin

Can't really be so disappointed with the price (40$) but I'm really surprise (in a bad way) of the huge amount of reverb in all the samples of Cage Strings. I mean, there are 4 spots+1 Close mic and there's like a 4 seconds reverb after each note (and the Reverb Rack is Off). The sounds are really interesting, but it will be difficult to blend them with other libraries.


----------



## cloudbuster

baptiste_palacin said:


> Can't really be so disappointed with the price (40$) but I'm really surprise (in a bad way) of the huge amount of reverb in all the samples of Cage Strings. I mean, there are 4 spots+1 Close mic and there's like a 4 seconds reverb after each note (and the Reverb Rack is Off). The sounds are really interesting, but it will be difficult to blend them with other libraries.


There's a bit of a tail on the samples but it's more about 1-1.5s on my system, depending on the individual articulation and mic. They can easily been taken care of e.g. with a gate if the need arises but I never felt the need to do that with any of the CAGE samples and I'm not much of a fan of overly wet samples either.


----------



## baptiste_palacin

cloudbuster said:


> There's a bit of a tail on the samples but it's more about 1-1.5s on my system, depending on the individual articulation and mic. They can easily been taken care of e.g. with a gate if the need arises but I never felt the need to do that with any of the CAGE samples and I'm not much of a fan of overly wet samples either.


I'll try with the Gate!  Here's what I have for the close and spot mics without additional reverb.


----------



## gamma-ut

If you tighten up the release, that will cut out a lot of the verb tail – just as long as you tweak the note length carefully on the hits as a held note will just capture the recorded tail. It's a bit of a delicate operation as the level of control you need is isolated to a tiny part of the overall release fader's range.


----------



## bcslaam

jbuhler said:


> Which means almost nothing, especially on a thread about regrets.
> 
> Every library isn’t for everyone, and almost every library will have its supporters and detractors. Landforms sounds cool enough in the abstract. I wouldn’t have bought it if I wasn’t hearing something I thought I could use in the demos and walkthroughs. But I find it hard to get useful results and I don’t find it especially fun to noodle around with. It’s rather a chore in fact and the library’s included instruments are not deeply sampled, so it mandates a lot of mangling and processing to find useful sounds. I have nothing against mangling sounds and often find it fun, but Landforms is not set up in a way that works well for me. All of this means it’s not a library I find inspiring to work with.
> 
> Landforms is also not exactly intuitive so you have a lot of things to relearn each time you return to it. I would say that Landforms would likely work well for someone who was using it on a very regular basis or who find the design intuitive but it’s not a great choice for someone like me who finds its design less than intuitive and would use it only on a very occasional basis.


I agree with this. In S+A attempt to simplify the GUI they've made it the most un-intuitive I know of. And way too expensive and CPU hungry. I must admit I get the same feeling a bit from Wrong Tools except they are much more realistically priced.

Same with Spitfire Mercury, Realitone Nightfall, Haunted Spaces, Mosaic Pads. All potentially good but trying to fit in the Kontakt player when they should really be using Omnisphere. It's a lot to do with the shear amount of variations and patches that make it suitable to Omnisphere, as well as the great gui. Kontakt is more suitable to deeply multisampled with a handful of variations assignable to keyswitches.


----------



## composer_nico.maximilian

For me it's everything from Output, HZ Percussion, Strikeforce.


----------



## gamma-ut

composer_nico.maximilian said:


> For me it's everything from Output,



I don't know if this is related to the issue you have there, but I would say with Output, they really fouled up by not mapping expression (or at least something like that) to instrument or source volume. Having only velocity control in Signal, for example, is just plain daft. So the effect you get is of everything in your face. Being able to control swells, for me at least, greatly improves the usability, though it's a bit of a faff to set up given that you need to do it for each snapshot where you want swell control.


----------



## ymouhoun

Mercury from Spitfire


----------



## composer_nico.maximilian

gamma-ut said:


> I don't know if this is related to the issue you have there, but I would say with Output, they really fouled up by not mapping expression (or at least something like that) to instrument or source volume. Having only velocity control in Signal, for example, is just plain daft. So the effect you get is of everything in your face. Being able to control swells, for me at least, greatly improves the usability, though it's a bit of a faff to set up given that you need to do it for each snapshot where you want swell control.


No but the presets in all if the Output Instruments are not really usable. I was never able to actually include them in anything. And the source sounds are not special. I have libraries that give me better source sounds.


----------



## Beermaster

East West ‘The Dark Side’. . . . Utter heap of poo. Instead of buying this library, just strap a distortion plugin across your existing libraries. . .and pretend it’s a new product.

East West ‘Hollywood Strings’. . . . I thought this would be a game changer.. back in 2010 .. bought a then new Mac Pro souped up with max speed processors, ram and even back then two OWC SSD drives to super speed the sample data transfer. . ..even had that mac Pro as a slave with VSL Ensmeble pro to my main mac pro running Logic. . .. . Couldn’t even run two monophonic string legato patches without glitches and crashes . . £8K set up . .. not usable.

As a matter of simple customer care, I have no time for East West. (yet think their libraries have some brilliant content) Setting up my first serious studio orchestral set up back in 2005? I paid £3,200 for the original QLSO diamond . .. less than a week later, they dropped the price to £800 ? ! Asking for some sort of bonus or gift in light of paying £2,400 over the top . . I was told not to be a nuisance and banned from their forum . . . . Classy !


----------



## Scalms

ymouhoun said:


> Mercury from Spitfire


curious what you don't like about this. I'm on the fence for possibly getting it Black Friday, so i'm interested in everyone's latest opinions on this as it's been out awhile now


----------



## Nigel Andreola

At first Drum Fury disappointed me. Now it is one of my favorites and gets a lot of use.


----------



## Zodiac

composer_nico.maximilian said:


> For me it's everything from Output, HZ Percussion, Strikeforce.


Since I'm interested in these 2 instruments (HZP and SF) could you please explain more why you've been disappointed and what were you initially expecting?


----------



## cedricm

Beermaster said:


> East West ‘The Dark Side’. . . . Utter heap of poo. Instead of buying this library, just strap a distortion plugin across your existing libraries. . .and pretend it’s a new product.
> 
> East West ‘Hollywood Strings’. . . . I thought this would be a game changer.. back in 2010 .. bought a then new Mac Pro souped up with max speed processors, ram and even back then two OWC SSD drives to super speed the sample data transfer. . ..even had that mac Pro as a slave with VSL Ensmeble pro to my main mac pro running Logic. . .. . Couldn’t even run two monophonic string legato patches without glitches and crashes . . £8K set up . .. not usable.
> 
> As a matter of simple customer care, I have no time for East West. (yet think their libraries have some brilliant content) Setting up my first serious studio orchestral set up back in 2005? I paid £3,200 for the original QLSO diamond . .. less than a week later, they dropped the price to £800 ? ! Asking for some sort of bonus or gift in light of paying £2,400 over the top . . I was told not to be a nuisance and banned from their forum . . . . Classy !


Things change. If you want to test EW offerings, you can subscribe to Composer for a month. IMO Opus is the best sample player today. 
I haven't run into issues in a long time. I'm on Windows though.


----------



## PebbleStream

Peter Satera said:


> Spitfire gifted me Tundra during a giveaway-time, simply because I was helpful on their social media to other users. I don't take that sorta thing for granted! Another developer just gave me a library for free, for being a good customer, and it was so kind of them and an amazing gesture! but it's not like many would hear about it.


Devs are giving away libraries for free? How can I get in on this?


----------



## mussnig

PebbleStream said:


> Devs are giving away libraries for free? How can I get in on this?


During their Holidays Sale in December they have "Random Acts of Kindness" (or something with a similar name). Essentially some people who give nice and helpful comments on their social media presences get libs as a gift. I got Neo that way.


----------



## Casiquire

mussnig said:


> During their Holidays Sale in December they have "Random Acts of Kindness" (or something with a similar name). Essentially some people who give nice and helpful comments on their social media presences get libs as a gift. I got Neo that way.


Lol they really are a hype developer just as much as a library developer. Really cool for the people who get free stuff!


----------



## easyrider

ymouhoun said:


> Mercury from Spitfire


Did the walkthrough not tell you something?


----------



## composer_nico.maximilian

Zodiac said:


> Since I'm interested in these 2 instruments (HZP and SF) could you please explain more why you've been disappointed and what were you initially expecting?


Strikeforce has very reverbed percussion. They don't slap as hard as I wanted them. IF you expect the Junkie XL Sound you are going to be dissapointed.
Hans Zimmer Percussion isn't produced very well. The HZ Mixes arent really good. The JXL and Alan Meyerson Mixes are much better. But in general the percussions are to soft, to much reverb and they are not able to play faster stuff. (the usual Spitfire problem)

For the sound of
Alan Meyerson and Hans Zimmer: LA Mordern Percussion
Junkie XL: Tom Holkenborgs Percussion
TV Scoring: Hammers by CC and Damage 2 by Heavyocity


----------



## RemyB85

8dio majestica, simply because I don't use it anymore...


----------



## AudioLoco

Appassionata. Used once. Will stay unused. Not what I was hoping for.

Bowed colors violin. Meh...


----------



## Peter Satera

PebbleStream said:


> Devs are giving away libraries for free? How can I get in on this?


As Mussnig said, Spitfire gifted me Tundra during their random acts of kindness. But they are far from the only company that has done this kinda thing. 

Being nice, helpful and an understanding customer, and showing keen investment goes a long way. Some of these companies are very small.


----------



## Peter Satera

AudioLoco said:


> Appassionata. Used once. Will stay unused. Not what I was hoping for.
> 
> Bowed colors violin. Meh...


Really?! I really like it, I'd love a touch more vibrato.


----------



## Zodiac

composer_nico.maximilian said:


> Strikeforce has very reverbed percussion. They don't slap as hard as I wanted them. IF you expect the Junkie XL Sound you are going to be dissapointed.
> Hans Zimmer Percussion isn't produced very well. The HZ Mixes arent really good. The JXL and Alan Meyerson Mixes are much better. But in general the percussions are to soft, to much reverb and they are not able to play faster stuff. (the usual Spitfire problem)
> 
> For the sound of
> Alan Meyerson and Hans Zimmer: LA Mordern Percussion
> Junkie XL: Tom Holkenborgs Percussion
> TV Scoring: Hammers by CC and Damage 2 by Heavyocity


I see! Isn’t the reverb of SF kind of controllable at least with the individual ADRS of each mic? Thanks for the recommendations btw!


----------



## Scalms

Zodiac said:


> Since I'm interested in these 2 instruments (HZP and SF) could you please explain more why you've been disappointed and what were you initially expecting?


HZP is actually very good. just A matter of taste of tone. I actually prefer HZ mixes to most others, but each mix offers something different. Some instruments are a miss for me (like snares) and others are a hit (timpani) for example. But there is one fact here, and that is percussion at Air is hard to get to sound bad. Many other libraries sound boxed in, etc, but not HZP, if that is what you are looking for.


----------



## Living Fossil

Zodiac said:


> I see! Isn’t the reverb of SF kind of controllable at least with the individual ADRS of each mic? Thanks for the recommendations btw!


It is... and if you focus on the Close mics the sound has for sure not_ too much reverb_.
I think the different mics give plenty of options for sculpting the sound.
What I personally find a problem is the fact that it comes with only 4 dynamic layers.
That's sometimes a real hindrance.


----------



## peterharket

composer_nico.maximilian said:


> Strikeforce has very reverbed percussion. They don't slap as hard as I wanted them. IF you expect the Junkie XL Sound you are going to be dissapointed.
> Hans Zimmer Percussion isn't produced very well. The HZ Mixes arent really good. The JXL and Alan Meyerson Mixes are much better. But in general the percussions are to soft, to much reverb and they are not able to play faster stuff. (the usual Spitfire problem)
> 
> For the sound of
> Alan Meyerson and Hans Zimmer: LA Mordern Percussion
> Junkie XL: Tom Holkenborgs Percussion
> TV Scoring: Hammers by CC and Damage 2 by Heavyocity


Hammers? Which library would that be?


----------



## RogiervG

peterharket said:


> Hammers? Which library would that be?











Spitfire Audio — Hammers


Brutalist drums for maximum impact



www.spitfireaudio.com


----------



## Zodiac

Living Fossil said:


> It is... and if you focus on the Close mics the sound has for sure not_ too much reverb_.
> I think the different mics give plenty of options for sculpting the sound.
> What I personally find a problem is the fact that it comes with only 4 dynamic layers.
> That's sometimes a real hindrance.


Are you talking about Strikeforce? Because I’m talking about Strikeforce and according to their website only tick-tocks have 2vl the rest has at least 6vl and many rr. Truth is that for some there is no mention of their vl number.


----------



## Living Fossil

Zodiac said:


> Are you talking about Strikeforce? Because I’m talking about Strikeforce and according to their website only tick-tocks have 2vl the rest has at least 6vl and many rr. Truth is that for some there is no mention of their vl number.


oh, classical misunderstanding... i read SF as SpitFire...
No, I was writing about HZP (since somebody wrote that it has too much reverb)


----------



## Zodiac

Living Fossil said:


> oh, classical misunderstanding... i read SF as SpitFire...
> No, I was writing about HZP (since somebody wrote that it has too much reverb)


That was @composer_nico.maximilian but he wrote "Strikeforce has very reverbed percussion."  Anyway I thought reverb is controllable in Strikeforce.


----------



## AudioXpression

Libraries can take us to different places and unleash our imagination. They can be inspiring and help our creativity to create music quickly and simply. Most of them can fulfill this, in its own way. The challenge is to find the proper library for the right project at a fair price.


----------



## timbit2006

I have one to sadly add and that is The Eighth Wonder by 8DIO.

It's what, almost 2 years now and we still haven't had the promised update to bring the Eighth Wonder up to Majestica 2.0's specs? For the most premium and expensive product 8DIO offered to not be upgraded that's a bit ridiculous and outrageous. There's some blatant noise in some of the samples that needs to be edited out as well but apparently it's the same noises in Majestica 2.0.


----------



## Rudianos

In the quest for a great Steel Drum ... I started with 8dio. Why? Because it sounded great in demos etc ... it is not however that pleasant to play with. I did kinda make it work, but ech.. FAIL

Spitfire then eh? Well got their Steel Drums on promo. Drenched in room you can hardly enjoy it. BIG FAIL

Huge dissaplointments there ...

Thankfully this came out! Just pure awesome:
Andy Narell Steel Pans — The Ellie Mannette Collection - ILIO​


----------



## Living Fossil

Zodiac said:


> That was @composer_nico.maximilian but he wrote "Strikeforce has very reverbed percussion."  Anyway I thought reverb is controllable in Strikeforce.


Actually, he also wrote:



> Hans Zimmer Percussion isn't produced very well. The HZ Mixes arent really good. The JXL and Alan Meyerson Mixes are much better. But in general the percussions are to soft, to[o] much reverb and they are not able to play faster stuff. (the usual Spitfire problem)



That's what I was refering to. 
But no problem if you haven't read his whole post anyway...


----------



## PebbleStream

Peter Satera said:


> As Mussnig said, Spitfire gifted me Tundra during their random acts of kindness. But they are far from the only company that has done this kinda thing.
> 
> Being nice, helpful and an understanding customer, and showing keen investment goes a long way. Some of these companies are very small.


If I only I had the money to show these folks such a keen investment


----------



## bfreepro

Scalms said:


> HZP is actually very good. just A matter of taste of tone. I actually prefer HZ mixes to most others, but each mix offers something different. Some instruments are a miss for me (like snares) and others are a hit (timpani) for example. But there is one fact here, and that is percussion at Air is hard to get to sound bad. Many other libraries sound boxed in, etc, but not HZP, if that is what you are looking for.


I really love HZP pro. I also like LA Modern Percussion but the lack of RRs really hinder that one. They both can really overpower the low end in a mix if you’re not careful though, but they still have an immense and epic sound that is very useful. They can both also be really soft and intimate with just sticks and brushes and solo percs. I actually think a better and easier-to-tame “epic” HZ style percussion sound comes from Damage 2. Easier to work with and the perfect mix of pure SLAM and ambience/reverb.


----------



## composer_nico.maximilian

Zodiac said:


> I see! Isn’t the reverb of SF kind of controllable at least with the individual ADRS of each mic? Thanks for the recommendations btw!


Reverb on Drums and Percussion only works for those Hans Zimmer Taiko Hits.
I worked a lot with the ADSR on Strikeforce. It doesn't help. It just sounds unreal and strange.


----------



## composer_nico.maximilian

Zodiac said:


> That was @composer_nico.maximilian but he wrote "Strikeforce has very reverbed percussion."  Anyway I thought reverb is controllable in Strikeforce.


You can add more reverb to the already reverby sounds.


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## composer_nico.maximilian

peterharket said:


> Hammers? Which library would that be?


Spitfire Audio x Charlie Clouser - Hammers









Spitfire Audio — Hammers


Brutalist drums for maximum impact



www.spitfireaudio.com





It's a little bit like Damage


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## David Baran

timbit2006 said:


> I have one to sadly add and that is The Eighth Wonder by 8DIO.
> 
> It's what, almost 2 years now and we still haven't had the promised update to bring the Eighth Wonder up to Majestica 2.0's specs? For the most premium and expensive product 8DIO offered to not be upgraded that's a bit ridiculous and outrageous. There's some blatant noise in some of the samples that needs to be edited out as well but apparently it's the same noises in Majestica 2.0.


About 2 months ago, I spoke to 8DIO's customer service about a different issue and brought up 8W and asked if they were going to update it to the newer Majestica 2.0 interface anytime soon. 

They said that the update would be released before the end of the year. I don't know if they were just feeding me bs or whether this is indeed the planned release date. We'll see if anything comes out in the next 1.5 months or January. 

Still, 8DIO/Soundpaint pumps out new stuff on a regular basis it seems, so who knows. 

I doubt that they will fix the soundsources/samples (would be nice), and most likely they will just update the interface. Obviously that in itself will be an improvement, but I would love for them to add more to it, or fix the issues it has since it was their premier orchestra. 

Then again it was hidden behind the ViP thing. I only found out about it because I came here. Not having it available as a normal product on sale, never made any sense to me. 

Also, not having any spot/close mics in Majestica never made any sense to me either, as it made it sound much less powerful/epic then it should have been. 

I would love for them to put in some real effort and love and actually make this orchestra be what it's namesake is, The Eighth Wonder.


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## AMBi

Abbey Road Orchestra: Low Percussion


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## mussnig

AMBi said:


> Abbey Road Orchestra: Low Percussion


You are kidding, right? Or did you really buy and download it already?


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## gamma-ut

AMBi said:


> Abbey Road Orchestra: Low Percussion



If you're going to do that, why not go the whole hog with Pacific Strings: "where are the second violins"? And stand well back...


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## AMBi

mussnig said:


> You are kidding, right?


Yeah lol
With my internet it would take like 2 days to download


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## Flintpope

I am deeply worried I will be disappointed with Kontakt 7. I know I'll get it and I know it'll be only a shade better than 6, just as difficult to code for and with some more "essential" instruments that hop on the latest music trend that I have never heard of. Or more of those professionally recorded classical orchestras that the BBC use on every David Attenborough documentary...

I want to be amazed by the new library function but I know it'll be just as annoying as the one I already have in Komplete (something I never use unless I want to create a "standalone" of Phaseplant). I want the Creator Tools to be a dream to use with drag and drop simplicity but I know I'll still have to code in the damn samples otherwise Kontakt doesn't play them. I hate Kontakt 7 already. 

Please tell me it ISN'T disappointing! I want to love it...


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## Akat1

Spitfire's The Stack. Is that considered a purchase? I got it because of other purchases, so.... 

Great idea, so much potential. So incredibly reserved in delivery. With that setup, lower range chords should of had more power than a whole symphonic brass section trying to impress Zimmer. I've heard mic'd Gorilla Amps with more...well you know. I think I spent 4 or 500 to qualify for this, I got Solstice and the Ton. I was still very green in this whole VI thing, so this was not the best purchases I could have made(Solstice is good though). 

Spitfire, you literally had the Braaam waveform generator armed and ready. You had thousands of watts of oscillators, just waiting to modulate themselves into oblivion. You had the sheer power to tear ribbon mics to shreds and overload analog inputs to unknown levels of saturations. And you played it safe. 

I like some of your other stuff tho


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## composer_nico.maximilian

Akat1 said:


> Spitfire's The Stack. Is that considered a purchase? I got it because of other purchases, so....
> 
> Great idea, so much potential. So incredibly reserved in delivery. With that setup, lower range chords should of had more power than a whole symphonic brass section trying to impress Zimmer. I've heard mic'd Gorilla Amps with more...well you know. I think I spent 4 or 500 to qualify for this, I got Solstice and the Ton. I was still very green in this whole VI thing, so this was not the best purchases I could have made(Solstice is good though).
> 
> Spitfire, you literally had the Braaam waveform generator armed and ready. You had thousands of watts of oscillators, just waiting to modulate themselves into oblivion. You had the sheer power to tear ribbon mics to shreds and overload analog inputs to unknown levels of saturations. And you played it safe.
> 
> I like some of your other stuff tho


 Sounds like basic Spitfire to me ^^


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## madfloyd

Spitfire Fractured Strings. Beautiful sound but I don't see how I'll ever use it.


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## bfreepro

madfloyd said:


> Spitfire Fractured Strings. Beautiful sound but I don't see how I'll ever use it.


Why’s that?


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## madfloyd

bfreepro said:


> Why’s that?


You can't really 'play' anything with it. It always wants to play two notes - either a rise up or rise down type of thing. Tricky to explain.


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## bfreepro

madfloyd said:


> You can't really 'play' anything with it. It always wants to play two notes - either a rise up or rise down type of thing. Tricky to explain.


Oh I have it I just wondered why you didn’t like it or what you expected from it. It’s definitely a niche library


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## shapeshifter00

Flintpope said:


> I am deeply worried I will be disappointed with Kontakt 7. I know I'll get it and I know it'll be only a shade better than 6, just as difficult to code for and with some more "essential" instruments that hop on the latest music trend that I have never heard of. Or more of those professionally recorded classical orchestras that the BBC use on every David Attenborough documentary...
> 
> I want to be amazed by the new library function but I know it'll be just as annoying as the one I already have in Komplete (something I never use unless I want to create a "standalone" of Phaseplant). I want the Creator Tools to be a dream to use with drag and drop simplicity but I know I'll still have to code in the damn samples otherwise Kontakt doesn't play them. I hate Kontakt 7 already.
> 
> Please tell me it ISN'T disappointing! I want to love it...


I tried Kontakt 7 player, and it was a mess in my opinion. Not fancying the new GUI at all. But sometimes it is hard to change your ways.

Hopefully it is new features for developers or things behind the hood that is worth it.


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## Soundpaint

David Baran said:


> About 2 months ago, I spoke to 8DIO's customer service about a different issue and brought up 8W and asked if they were going to update it to the newer Majestica 2.0 interface anytime soon.
> 
> They said that the update would be released before the end of the year. I don't know if they were just feeding me bs or whether this is indeed the planned release date. We'll see if anything comes out in the next 1.5 months or January.
> 
> Still, 8DIO/Soundpaint pumps out new stuff on a regular basis it seems, so who knows.
> 
> I doubt that they will fix the soundsources/samples (would be nice), and most likely they will just update the interface. Obviously that in itself will be an improvement, but I would love for them to add more to it, or fix the issues it has since it was their premier orchestra.
> 
> Then again it was hidden behind the ViP thing. I only found out about it because I came here. Not having it available as a normal product on sale, never made any sense to me.
> 
> Also, not having any spot/close mics in Majestica never made any sense to me either, as it made it sound much less powerful/epic then it should have been.
> 
> I would love for them to put in some real effort and love and actually make this orchestra be what it's namesake is, The Eighth Wonder.


Not bs. It was BETA tested and had demos written months ago. Will try to get it released before the end of this year. It also isn't just an updated UI either. We made some improvements.


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## Syncopator

VanSou said:


> Cycles by slateandash.. so much money and I simply never use it. weird gui and the presets are not interesting at all for me.. but probably I'm just too lazy to understand the tool


I know what you mean, but I own it, and it's a stunning library and tool. There are various YouTube videos that are really helpful in terms of wrapping your brain around the UI. Like this one:


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## Syncopator

gamma-ut said:


> Having only velocity control in Signal, for example, is just plain daft. So the effect you get is of everything in your face. Being able to control swells, for me at least, greatly improves the usability, though it's a bit of a faff to set up given that you need to do it for each snapshot where you want swell control.


cc7 doesn't work?


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## gamma-ut

Syncopator said:


> cc7 doesn't work?



With that you're basically fading the FX in and out as well, which might work in context but might not in what is a pretty effects-heavy setup. I think it's better to have CC#11 or something similar mapped to source gain and I think Output would have made themselves a few more friends if they'd done it at the outset.


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## Syncopator

peterharket said:


> Hammers? Which library would that be?


I believe @peterharket meant Spitfire Audio HAMMERS By Charlie Clouser.

(Guys, we're really going overboard with the abbreviations. Please consider that thread-readers aren't mind-readers.) 😊


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## kitekrazy

Syncopator said:


> I believe @peterharket meant Spitfire Audio HAMMERS By Charlie Clouser.
> 
> (Guys, *we're really going overboard with the abbreviations.* Please consider that thread-readers aren't mind-readers.) 😊


It's a forum trademark.


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