# The Robber SSS (Spitfire Symphonic Strings)



## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

Here is my version of my piece The Robber using Spitfire Symphonic Strings (SSS) only, below is the version using Cinematic Studio Strings CSS) only.
SSS:


Here is the SSS version with Time Machine patches, this is much crispier and clearer:


CSS:


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## Daniel F. (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> Here is my version of my piece The Robber using Spitfire Symphonic Strings (SSS) only, below is the version using Cinematic Studio Strings CSS) only.
> SSS:
> 
> 
> CSS:




Both sound very good and I was actually surprised to like the SSS version the same or even more for this track. It could be because I find CSS too dry in your demo imo. You hear that both have their strengths and weaknesses and they each do their own thing. Also there's a volume difference I think.

Did you only use one mic for SSS or a mix of multiple?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 21, 2016)

For me personally CSS wins here on all levels and that is not because I have CSS, the shorts have more bite, more crisp and they sit and blend somehow better together. They have also more detail but sure this because of the smaller ensemble sizes and less wet room, but this is exactly what contributes to a live feeling. Sure it may be a matter of taste in the end.


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## NoamL (Nov 21, 2016)

I like the fast cello & violin runs in Mural a lot more - that was the one unrealistic bit in the CSS version, probably because CSS doesn't have a purposely recorded run articulation. There is too much bite and not enough blur in each individual note of the CSS "runs" & it doesn't sound very real to me.

But _other_ than that, I think the CSS version is better in every way. It has a more dramatic dynamic range and there just seems to be more musical intention behind each note. I know that's unquantifiable... hmm. If I were in a string orchestra playing this piece I'd be excited to be playing a showpiece with so many dramatic twists and turns. I hear that musicality, excitement and dramatic flair in the CSS version while the Mural version just feels ... flat.

Things get particularly clunky at 0:43 in the Mural version which was actually my favorite part of the CSS version. In the CSS version the music is moving to a new level of flurrying, virtuosic activity, but there's still detail and precision. With the Mural version, listening critically you can hear that the short notes kind of get swallowed up in the texture.


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

I agree with all of you, CSS is more brilliant and crispy, SSS has more warmth and AIR 
I had to edit a lot for the SSS version, especially dynamics.
The part at 0:43 didn't sound convincing so I had to change the patches, it is more blurry now which is fine as well.
For me it was very interesting to learn how the music, mood and the character changes by just using a different library.
I think both are very different but equal.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 21, 2016)

Once again: such a cool piece of music.

The CSS version just sounds _right_. Like Alexander said, the bite, crisp attack and detailed texture make the difference. SSS sounds silky and beautiful in its own right, but for this kind of piece, CSS is just the ideal library.


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> for this kind of piece, CSS is just the ideal library.


I agree, for this piece, yes.
I am starting a piece using SSS performance legato patches now, they sound wonderful.


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## artmuz (Nov 21, 2016)

I do agree with Alexander and also think that the piece brings to attention the part of CSS which excells (there are also many things I don't like in CSS). I also immediately recall my Bartok scores...
Having recorded a lot of orchestral music in concert halls I would not be too happy at the ending of the piece with SSS. Our concert halls do not blurry things as here (unless the hall is empty!)


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## luke_7 (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof this is fantastic comparison between libraries and of course beautiful music as always. I'm surprise how SSS are behind CSS. In every aspect CSS sounds better. I would love to hear this between BS and SSS. If You do some legato type test please share with us.


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## TGV (Nov 21, 2016)

Nice work, and a very useful comparison. A true service to the community. CSS does sound a bit better, especially in the softer passages, for me, but then I've always thought that Mural lacked bite (only got Vol. 1). On the other hand, the dynamic range of CSS seems a bit more restricted, and it sounds a tad more nasal.

Thanks for doing this.


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## jamwerks (Nov 21, 2016)

Nice piece, and thanks for putting these up! Please tell us which mic's were used in each example, that's really essential info imo. And modifying mic usage can change greatly the sound and in these "shoot-outs" even reverse the "results".

Both sound very good to me. The fast legato work great (we've come a long way in the last several years in that department). I don't yet have CSS, but it seems to have even shorter shorts, which in this piece seem to have worked.

In the SSS vesion, do you use "RT" on the shorts? That may have worked here.

Reminds my why we need to have several libraries for each section, as each adapts itself better to specific musical situations...


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## Daniel F. (Nov 21, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Nice piece, and thanks for putting these up! Please tell us which mic's were used in each example, that's really essential info imo. And modifying mic usage can change greatly the sound and in these "shoot-outs" even reverse the "results".
> 
> Both sound very good to me. The fast legato work great (we've come a long way in the last several years in that department). I don't yet have CSS, but it seems to have even shorter shorts, which in this piece might have worked.
> 
> ...



I would guess mix for CSS and I think he said SSS used T and C both at max volume.


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2016)

Amazing and thanks for the comparison! Great piece of music! How long did it take to write with Samples (including all the tweaking). Really interested in hearing about how to you went about doing something like this. Did you write it on paper first and then into a DAW or play it straight into a DAW etc?

Also, I was wondering to give the Shorts more bite in SSS, couldn't the time machine patch be used to shorten the shorts to a point of giving them the sound of fast attacks?

Thanks again! You're music is amazing!


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

@jononotbono :
Mostly I write straight into Logic, I'm not the pen/paper guy.
I can't remember exactly how long it took, but probably one day for sure.

Good idea using the time machine shorts, maybe I will give it a try later.


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2016)

Wow


Christof said:


> @jononotbono :
> Mostly I write straight into Logic, I'm not the pen/paper guy.
> I can't remember exactly how long it took, but probably one day for sure.
> 
> Good idea using the time machine shorts, maybe I will give it a try later.


You have some mad skills man! Amazing! Would love to get to this point with String writing. I find it incredibly hard writing really fast string runs because although I constantly practise playing scales on Piano to get dexterity, my fingers just aren't fast enough yet. Everytime I draw notes in or use the Step input, I get that dreaded quantise feel/sound. 

Would love to hear your piece with the Time Machine Patch on shorts as you can make the notes (I only have SCS not SSS) so unrealistically short or unrealistically Long in length that they could help?


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## markd (Nov 21, 2016)

Here's what I do for SSS passages like this:

I use the time machine short note patches and assign CC3 to the Stretch parameter. That way I can vary the sharpness and mushiness of the notes easily.

For the mics, I use:

C -6db
A 0DB
O -6DB


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## Polarity (Nov 21, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Once again: such a cool piece of music.
> 
> The CSS version just sounds _right_. Like Alexander said, the bite, crisp attack and detailed texture make the difference. SSS sounds silky and beautiful in its own right, but for this kind of piece, CSS is just the ideal library.


I Agree, CSS sounds more ideal for a piece of this kind, it needs more crispiness from the shorts.
For what I hear the SSS Tremolos at the end sound good anyway to me.
@Cristof, did you use the xxxbpm Tremolos or the unmeasured ones of SSS?


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## Polarity (Nov 21, 2016)

at 0:43 CSS wins forever and ever, there's no match.
Thank you for this very interesting compare...
I'll await the TM short version and perhaps to listen to a demo of the track you are writing with the SSS Perfomance Legato patch...


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

I added the TM version above...


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## jononotbono (Nov 21, 2016)

It's changed it completely! Wow! So which to buy? BOTH!


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

Polarity said:


> @Cristof, did you use the xxxbpm Tremolos or the unmeasured ones of SSS?


unmeasured tremolos


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## Polarity (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> unmeasured tremolos


Thanks.
Heard the TM version... much better now, but still love more the CSS version (at 0:43 still wins)...
not sure why, but to me has more of that Zimmer's POTC feel. :D

Anyway I'm more towards to buy SSS than CSS at today....
still have many days to think about.


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## jamwerks (Nov 21, 2016)

Cool ! The SSS TM example sound much better to me than the non TM. Kudos to Spitfire for providing us with all these features!. After listening to this, I think that I don't need to buy CSS, though it sounds great and is very reasonably priced.

Imo, the pizz Bartok (at "21") could maybe benefit from stretching in TM. Pizz in celli & double basses can resonate a long time, unless you really want those "secco" like that. I've alway wished that devs would do two different pizz (3 including Bartok) for celli and basses; secco & l.v. which are a bit longer).

One question to @Christof; I hear an inner voice at 1'05" that might be an error?


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> Imo, the pizz Bartok (at "21") could maybe benefit from stretching in TM


It's not Bartok pizz, it's col legno, and it makes no sense to time stretch a col legno patch because it is so percussive.
At 1:05 everything is fine


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## Quasar (Nov 21, 2016)

I listened to all three, and they all sound great. FWIW, I like the SSS without the TM best, and perhaps this is only because it has more of an airy room presence and raw, warm edginess about it. Does the TM artificially tighten shorts or something? 

But if you tweaked a few mic, verb or whatever parameters, I quite likely couldn't reliably pass a double blind test, and the take-away for me as that both libraries are first rate. (I have neither of them.)


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## jamwerks (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> ...and it makes no sense to time stretch a col legno patch because it is so percussive.


My ears just wanted to hear the resonance of those percussive hits.


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

Tugboat said:


> Does the TM artificially tighten shorts or something?


No, but you have a slider to make the notes shorter or longer, time stretch.


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## luke_7 (Nov 21, 2016)

@Polarity mentioned 0:43 wow really CSS is the winner.


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## benmrx (Nov 21, 2016)

Wow, I thought this would make my Strings purchase choice easier......, but it's only made it harder. CSS vs. SSS is certainly a closer race than I previously thought. 

Thank you so much for these real world examples! 

If there's any chance, would love to hear a legato dual between these to libraries.


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

I can do a very short demo if you want.


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## benmrx (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> I can do a very short demo if you want.


That would be great if you get a chance!


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## EvilDragon (Nov 21, 2016)

I'm not even sure why relatively dry studio recorded strings are being compared with strings recorded in an obviously larger space, of course trems are going to be way more blurred in that scenario (the 0:43 example)!

Both speak the piece differently, but I wouldn't call either a winner, since they're apples and oranges. Both are fruit and both are good for ya with all those vitamins!


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

Okay, here is a legato comparison, starting with the first violins joined by the whole band later.
I did this very quickly as exercise, so forgive me some mixing issues and maybe some issues regarding composition and creativity 
CSS is louder and thicker in general, SSS is clearer and more dimensional, more british.CSS has more balls.

I love both libraries.


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## Scamper (Nov 21, 2016)

Great piece and comparison.
Both really have their qualities, but what bugs me most about CSS is the seemingly narrow dynamic range.

Is it possible to get The Robber with SCS?


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## synergy543 (Nov 21, 2016)

Thank you for doing these Christof! They are most informative and very well done. Adjusting for volume differences, the CSS version sounds somewhat filtered in comparison. This becomes particularly apparent when the entire ensemble comes in at 28s. OTOH, you could say that SSS has a brighter, edgier sound due to the richer upper harmonics as well as the room sound. One is not better than the other IMO, but they are different in a way that could complement each other in different situations.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> Okay, here is a legato comparison, starting with the first violins joined by the whole band later.
> I did this very quickly as exercise, so forgive me some mixing issues and maybe some issues regarding composition and creativity
> CSS is louder and thicker in general, SSS is clearer and more dimensional, more british.CSS has more balls.
> 
> I love both libraries.




Well what to say. Thank you for the comparison, Christof and I keep my opinion this time for me not that people start to think I am a CSS Fanboy..folks..decide on your own what you like the best.


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## luke_7 (Nov 21, 2016)

To be clear I'm totally in love witch all Spitfire Audio Libraries and SSS is truly amazing library but none the less the 0:43 example should't be sooooo blurred after all there are close mics.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 21, 2016)

For anyone who owns SSS can also try how the library deals with measured trems?

here is the midi and the short rendition I did pretty quick back then CSS was released during june this year.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/twzg7c10g1ey052/Alex_Schiborr_MS_Trems_CSS.mid?dl=0


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## FinGael (Nov 21, 2016)

I have been listening to them a few times and (at least today) the one most to my liking is the CSS version. To me it feels the most alive and musical of them. Even though the sound itself is quite dark, I like the grittyness in the sound. SSS version sounds like good quality strings, but it leaves me more empty regarding the emotional aspect. The SSS TM-version feels even more lifeless, even though the sound is more clear and crispier.

The composition I (still) like a lot. It is such a fun and well-made piece.

Thank you Christof for sharing. This is very useful material, when pondering of purchasing SSS (I already have CSS and SCS from Spitfire and like them both).

_Edit: Just adding that I was talking about The Robber, not the legato comparison._


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

Scamper said:


> Is it possible to get The Robber with SCS?


I don't have SCS.


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## Scamper (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> I don't have SCS.


I would help with that, if you allow.


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

Sure, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/the%20robber%20CSS.mid (here) is the basic MIDI, have fun!


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## benmrx (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> Okay, here is a legato comparison, starting with the first violins joined by the whole band later.
> I did this very quickly as exercise, so forgive me some mixing issues and maybe some issues regarding composition and creativity
> CSS is louder and thicker in general, SSS is clearer and more dimensional, more british.CSS has more balls.
> 
> I love both libraries.




Agree. I really like the sound of both libraries. It's like asking what color you like more. No wrong answer IMO. Thank you again for all these examples! VERY eye/ear opening!


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## jamwerks (Nov 21, 2016)

On the legato test, both sound good. I prefer SSS, especially when everyone plays. A tad more 3D. CSS also seems to have more of that broad-band bow noise, that I don't particularly like.


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## coprhead6 (Nov 21, 2016)

To my ear, CSS seems to rely heavily on ribbon microphones for much of their tone. I would be very interested to hear this comparison again with SSS using the ribbon microphones in the expansion pack.


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## Polarity (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> Okay, here is a legato comparison, starting with the first violins joined by the whole band later.
> I did this very quickly as exercise, so forgive me some mixing issues and maybe some issues regarding composition and creativity
> CSS is louder and thicker in general, SSS is clearer and more dimensional, more british.CSS has more balls.
> 
> I love both libraries.




Love both libraries sounds me too judging from these demos...
CSS seems to me more "hard/strident" (could my view of that your "louder" definition?) and SSS more "soft/rounded" (could be my view of that your "more dimensional" definition?)...
It's a matter of tastes and it reminds me a bit the kind of threads about LASS vs CS2, where the first was the gritty/strident and the second the lush/rounded one 
Saturday night I saw "Nocturnals Animals" (with Amy Adams and Jake Gillendhaal) and there was a beautiful and intense strings theme in a couple of scenes (one is at the end of the movie) where - I could be wrong but - perhaps I would see fit better the SSS tone than CSS.

Uh, wished to ask, please: have you used a "normal" legato patch or the performance legato for the SSS version?


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## ModalRealist (Nov 21, 2016)

Thanks Christof for these comparisons! I think the difference in tone during the latter half of the "drama" track is really notable. I love both. SSS in that example is genuinely the first time that I recognised the distinctive tone I hear in live recordings from Air (that's probably me, not the rest of Spitfire's recording - or, it could just be the music I've listened to from Air...). CSS nails that film studio tone (though, for me, it is only a "different take" on that tone, not a "better" tone, than BST).


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

Polarity said:


> Uh, wished to ask, please: have you used a "normal" legato patch or the performance legato for the SSS version?


I used the performance legato patch, it has this great marcato/strong bow attack overlay at high velocity, by the way CSS has that too.


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## benmrx (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> Sure, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/the%20robber%20CSS.mid (here) is the basic MIDI, have fun!


Would you mind if I posted some slightly processed versions of the CSS examples here? Just a little EQ and verb.


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## JBacal (Nov 21, 2016)

The Robber is wonderful piece! I really love the pianissimo section at :52 in CSS version.

Best,
Jay


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## Jetzer (Nov 21, 2016)

Wow, these make me instantly want to but SSS. I use HS, but never fully got along with the shorts, these sound absolutely the way I want them. I really need chamber strings too, things might get expensive.

From what I've heard so far is that CSS sounds fantastic, but my personal preference makes me lean towards Spitfire more as a addition to my HS (which still sound great).

Great demos @Christof, thanks!


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

I just want to say that I didn't create this thread to say that one library is better that the other.Both are amazing and wonderful tools.


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

benmrx said:


> Would you mind if I posted some slightly processed versions of the CSS examples here? Just a little EQ and verb.


You can post whatever you want as this is a public forum 
This is not MY property.


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## benmrx (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> You can post whatever you want as this is a public forum
> This is not MY property.


Thanks! Just thought it might in bad taste to post someone else's stuff without checking.


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

JH said:


> From what I've heard so far is that CSS sounds fantastic, but my personal preference makes me lean towards Spitfire more as a addition to my HS (which still sound great).


I still have HS on my hard drive, but I rarely use them because I dislike the fact that PLAY has no function to create or use custom built keyswitches.
The sound of HS is breathtaking, but the usability is a game stopper.


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## Christof (Nov 21, 2016)

benmrx said:


> Thanks! Just thought it might in bad taste to post someone else's stuff without checking


You are a fair player, thanks!


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 21, 2016)

For the Robber I preferred CSS for the crispy, edgy sound, which in my opinion the song calls for. The slow passage that Christof uploaded, I like them both, but they sound quite different. Similar sound to SSS can be heard in BBC historical dramas. CSS is more to your face sound, but capable of soft passages too, just different sound. Very interesting comparisons! A great example that strings can have such a different character in different libraries.


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## benmrx (Nov 21, 2016)

OK, I literally spent 2 minutes on this. Just had some time before my session started today. That's what happens when the talent is late...haha. Anyways, I just wanted to do a quick 'n dirty test using a little EQ and verb on the CSS examples. Same processing applied to both tracks here. Again, this was done VERY quickly.


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## jamwerks (Nov 21, 2016)

Christof said:


> I still have HS on my hard drive, but I rarely use them because I dislike the fact that PLAY has no function to create or use custom built keyswitches.
> The sound of HS is breathtaking, but the usability is a game stopper.


Just in case you didn't know, the expression maps in Cubase let you control Play in about any way you want concerning KS'S. I bought Cubase literally the day after Play 4 way announced and I saw the terribly lacking articulation management. Was using Logic and DP at the time...

I too still like HS, particularly with a little SCS mixed in low.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 21, 2016)

Marvellous thread. Marvellous music. Marvellous libraries. Thank you for starting the thread Christof.


...only now I'm more confused than ever. I can really see/hear how these two could work together in an arsenal.


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## JanR (Nov 21, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> For anyone who owns SSS can also try how the library deals with measured trems?
> 
> here is the midi and the short rendition I did pretty quick back then CSS was released during june this year.
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/twzg7c10g1ey052/Alex_Schiborr_MS_Trems_CSS.mid?dl=0



The maes Trems patch in SSS is fundamentally different in programming, it is a looped sustain of maes trems which goes on forever when holding the note, but the loop has no round robins. The loop length is almost two bars. Dynamics are controlled with CC1 instead of note velocity. To do a lot of short accents in the phrase with SSS maes trems is a lot harder since dynamics are controlled with CC1 and acts like when playing and controlling sustain patch dynamics. Since the loop has no round robbins, with this midi file SSS maes trems would sound like machine gun galore, and wouldn't do justice to the beauty of the patch.

I don't have CSS yet but I concluded by watching the demo that the feature to control maes trems with note velocity makes it more suitable for these action type sequences with lots of accents in the phrase. How many round robbins does this patch have? Is it correct that for every repetition you have to hit the note again? How well does it play live on the keyboard. Does it require programming afterwards, or does it already sound good when jamming on the keyboard? The CSS patch would be a major reason for me to get CSS, since I don't know of any other library that can do it that way. (I know adagio has a spic bounce patch but it isn't time syncd)


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## ctsai89 (Nov 21, 2016)

benmrx said:


> Agree. I really like the sound of both libraries. It's like asking what color you like more. No wrong answer IMO. Thank you again for all these examples! VERY eye/ear opening!



Neither of them sounded synthy *cough cough vienna*. CSS sounded "better" than SSS. SSS sounded more realistic than CSS. I have to say, with the newest update for performance legato, SSS > CSS overall if everything including sound and playability was taken into consideration.


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## markleake (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> CSS sounded "better" than SSS. SSS sounded more realistic than CSS.


I'm curious, can you provide more detail on why you thought CSS sounded better and SSS more real?


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## Polarity (Nov 22, 2016)

Christof said:


> I just want to say that I didn't create this thread to say that one library is better that the other.Both are amazing and wonderful tools.


Yep, but in the end it happened (as usual here)! 

Personally I would like to buy both (and add Soaring Strings also to them), but you know...
for sure SSS intro offer is stronger as appealing than the 50$ less off CSS for the Black Friday, that will be less traumatic to pay in future than the 200 Euros for SSS, if I will regret the choice/purchase.



SoNowWhat? said:


> Marvellous thread. Marvellous music. Marvellous libraries. Thank you for starting the thread Christof.
> ...only now I'm more confused than ever. I can really see/hear how these two could work together in an arsenal.



Yes, the same me too here but perhaps the Test Drama versions are making me less confused about what I could need more at the moment.
Ok, this is my personally taste, but usually I prefer the raw sound (bow-noise) on shorts (the same feeling I have with LASS) but I don't like that CSS "bow noise aura" on long violins as I hear in the Test Drama.
For longs it seems that I like and prefer the cleaner sound of SSS violins.
The EQ version (thanks for that) unfortunately doesn't clean enough that noise for me on CSS longs violins...

@Cristof: you, who have now both under your hands, could tell me please which, in your opinion, has the stronger/intense vibrato between SSS and CSS?
Perhaps that Rachmanikov legato patch?
I wonder if SSS can make enough to avoid me purchasing also Soaring Strings (at least for the moment).


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## Polarity (Nov 22, 2016)

uh, that strings piece from "Nocturnal Animals" I mentioned yesterday is this one:



EDIT: checked, the soundtrack was recorded in London. Don't know where precisly but in the credits Geoff Foster is listed for recording and mixing.
And we know where and with whom he worked already.


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## luke_7 (Nov 22, 2016)

@Christof i did Cine Samples Strings version. Used only Spiccatos and some eq / compression.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Nov 22, 2016)

JanR said:


> The maes Trems patch in SSS is fundamentally different in programming, it is a looped sustain of maes trems which goes on forever when holding the note, but the loop has no round robins. The loop length is almost two bars. Dynamics are controlled with CC1 instead of note velocity. To do a lot of short accents in the phrase with SSS maes trems is a lot harder since dynamics are controlled with CC1 and acts like when playing and controlling sustain patch dynamics. Since the loop has no round robbins, with this midi file SSS maes trems would sound like machine gun galore, and wouldn't do justice to the beauty of the patch.
> 
> I don't have CSS yet but I concluded by watching the demo that the feature to control maes trems with note velocity makes it more suitable for these action type sequences with lots of accents in the phrase. How many round robbins does this patch have? Is it correct that for every repetition you have to hit the note again? How well does it play live on the keyboard. Does it require programming afterwards, or does it already sound good when jamming on the keyboard? The CSS patch would be a major reason for me to get CSS, since I don't know of any other library that can do it that way. (I know adagio has a spic bounce patch but it isn't time syncd)



Greetings Jan,

I don´t know how many round robins they had sampled for the meas. trems., but so far what I can say is that they work very good even in various different speed, from pretty slow to effingly fast and also in passages where the tempo is continously varied, here is a short example of one of my tracks where I varied the tempo and the measured trems adapted all the time the right pace. I remember in the old CSS release thread there were people trying to do that stuff with other libraries and in my opinion none of the examples had this "nice live" grittyness what CSS features here. PS: It does not require much programming..not really.

Anyways here is the short snippet:


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## dreamnight92 (Nov 22, 2016)

Both great libraries, cannot say which library is better because both sound great! 

Personally, I think that CSS shorts sound great, while SSS legato is very intense. 

I personally noticed a problem with SSS longs: the volume of the note tend to rise up in the middle of the sustains samples: I remember that I noticed something similar in HS, and I hated this because I needed a lot of midi editing.


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## Christof (Nov 22, 2016)

Polarity said:


> you, who have now both under your hands, could tell me please which, in your opinion, has the stronger/intense vibrato between SSS and CSS?


Hard to tell, it's a matter of taste in my opinion, both have a wonderful expressive vibrato.


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## Christof (Nov 22, 2016)

luke_7 said:


> @Christof i did Cine Samples Strings version. Used only Spiccatos and some eq / compression.



Thanks for this version luke_7!
For me this doesn't work, I dislike the tone of Cinestrings, I tried them at a friends studio and it was clear that this library is not for my needs.
But I love Cinebrass for example, and Cinewinds/Cineorch.
But those strings don't sound good to me.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your version!I had fun listening to the bartok pizz. at the end...crazy bass players there


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## luke_7 (Nov 22, 2016)

Christof said:


> Thanks for this version luke_7!
> For me this doesn't work, I dislike the tone of Cinestrings, I tried them at a friends studio and it was clear that this library is not for my needs.
> But I love Cinebrass for example, and Cinewinds/Cineorch.
> But those strings don't sound good to me.
> Anyway, thanks for sharing your version!I had fun listening to the bartok pizz. at the end...crazy bass players there


 Crazy bass players haha yes indeed, why so serious...right ?


----------



## JanR (Nov 22, 2016)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> Greetings Jan,
> 
> I don´t know how many round robins they had sampled for the meas. trems., but so far what I can say is that they work very good even in various different speed, from pretty slow to effingly fast and also in passages where the tempo is continously varied, here is a short example of one of my tracks where I varied the tempo and the measured trems adapted all the time the right pace. I remember in the old CSS release thread there were people trying to do that stuff with other libraries and in my opinion none of the examples had this "nice live" grittyness what CSS features here. PS: It does not require much programming..not really.
> 
> Anyways here is the short snippet:



Thanks a lot Alexander!
The CSS meas trems really shine with accents in the phrase, thanks for your snippet. Definitely getting this library 

Btw. SSS has three maes trem patches which have their own character. One recorded at 150 bpm and one recorded at 180 bpm and one con sordino at 150. All patches sync to tempo and shine at vivaldi 4 seasons type meas trems


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## Polarity (Nov 22, 2016)

Christof said:


> Hard to tell, it's a matter of taste in my opinion, both have a wonderful expressive vibrato.


Understood, thank you. 
I will try to get more opinions relistening to various demos/tracks.


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## Christof (Nov 22, 2016)

In my humble opinion everyone who makes a living from creating music and mockups should have both CSS and SSS.
With these two you are on the safe side.
I collected many big string libraries in the past, but actually I only use these two now.
But I have to say that I never tried or owned Berlin strings, so I can't say anything about them, but I guess they are a great option too.


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## Polarity (Nov 22, 2016)

Christof said:


> In my humble opinion everyone who makes a living from creating music and mockups should have both CSS and SSS.
> With these two you are on the safe side.


Yep, I agree! But actually (and unfortunately) at the moment it's not my case.... 
otherwise I would have got both... well all three I nominated in my wishlist.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

markleake said:


> I'm curious, can you provide more detail on why you thought CSS sounded better and SSS more real?



Ok well to me SSS sounded more herman-esque. I think tha'ts what i mean by "real" as it sounded more traditional. CSS sounded more like a midi mockup, but a very nice and beautiful one, unlike all of VSL's string libraries that sounded synthy/straight out of sibelius/finale. Both are great and I love the sounds of both so therefore one is orange and one is apple. A lot of it for SSS I think, has to do with air studio hall reverb and nice beautiful (sometimes imperfect) transitions/vibratoes/attacks. SSS will even sound realistic even if you had everything quantized at 100% to the beats. CSS is super modern beautiful and perfect to the point that I can tell it's a Midi-mockup but hey i'm a string player so no one needs to feel like they have the same kind of ears I have right?


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## khollister (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> Ok well to me SSS sounded more herman-esque. I think tha'ts what i mean by "real" as it sounded more traditional. CSS sounded more like a midi mockup, but a very nice and beautiful one, unlike all of VSL's string libraries that sounded synthy/straight out of sibelius/finale. Both are great and I love the sounds of both so therefore one is orange and one is apple. A lot of it for SSS I think, has to do with air studio hall reverb and nice beautiful (sometimes imperfect) transitions/vibratoes/attacks. SSS will even sound realistic even if you had everything quantized at 100% to the beats. CSS is super modern beautiful and perfect to the point that I can tell it's a Midi-mockup but hey i'm a string player so no one needs to feel like they have the same kind of ears I have right?



Agree completely - also a string player (retired)


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## Christof (Nov 22, 2016)

Also a string player...


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## Scamper (Nov 22, 2016)

JanR said:


> Btw. SSS has three maes trem patches which have their own character. One recorded at 150 bpm and one recorded at 180 bpm and one con sordino at 150. All patches sync to tempo and shine at vivaldi 4 seasons type meas trems



Oh thanks, I totally forgot about this sync option for the measured trems.


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 22, 2016)

Am I the only one itching for a VSL version of The Robber? 

Anyway, here's my version:
https://clyp.it/wg15nnt3?token=6ac84feee5900162e80f399b0b6495cd

Hopefully Hans and TBerg are happier now. May their holy spirits bless me.  Thanks for the exercise, Christof.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Am I the only one itching for a VSL version of The Robber?
> 
> Anyway, here's my version:
> https://clyp.it/wg15nnt3?token=6ac84feee5900162e80f399b0b6495cd
> ...



is that done by all VSL? vsl strings always sounds synthy to me and this was no exception :( Great work though!


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## Lotias (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> is that done by all VSL? vsl strings always sounds synthy to me and this was no exception :( Great work though!


You've probably heard a lot of poor usage of VSL strings, then.
As for WhiteNoiz's rendition with VSL, it _sounds_ like he's not really using the shorts available to his advantage. I've noticed this a lot with people using VSL libraries, where they don't really use the patches and keyswitches available to them, and it ends up sounding terrible in comparison when it can sound just as great as other libraries. This is assuming he's using VSL, which I'm not really sure about that.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

Lotias said:


> You've probably heard a lot of poor usage of VSL strings, then.
> As for WhiteNoiz's rendition with VSL, it _sounds_ like he's not really using the shorts available to his advantage. I've noticed this a lot with people using VSL libraries, where they don't really use the patches and keyswitches available to them, and it ends up sounding terrible in comparison when it can sound just as great as other libraries. This is assuming he's using VSL, which I'm not really sure about that.



So are there any demoes on the actual Vsl site that sounded realistic? I have yet to find one but I remember holst's Jupiter sounded a bit more believable than the others. Still though, do you have any Vienna demoes that are good you know of you can show me? Pm me if u do


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## Lotias (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> So are there any demoes on the actual Vsl site that sounded realistic? I have yet to find one but I remember holst's Jupiter sounded a bit more believable than the others. Still though, do you have any Vienna demoes that are good you know of you can show me? Pm me if u do


Any of the ones by Guy Bacos seem to be popular.
Another thing is that the people that made demos for VSL tend to put their instruments through the MIR reverb, which makes it sound less... cinematic, to say the least, but more imitates a realistic recording. So, they might just be sounding different than you expected.


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## Lotias (Nov 22, 2016)

Here's my quick rendition of The Robber with VSL Special Edition Vol. 1 (the full bundle).
https://instaud.io/D8G

Entirely VSL, including the built-in reverb options in Vienna Instruments. I used a mix of MIRx and algorithmic, depending on the instrument. Could probably use some refinement, especially considering there's no measured tremolo for those parts. Plus, still learning to work with this library.


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## benmrx (Nov 22, 2016)

Has there been a version of the Robber using Spitfire SCS with the 'transposition trick'?


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## DrJazz9781 (Nov 22, 2016)

CSS sounds over crisp to me.


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## desert (Nov 22, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Am I the only one itching for a VSL version of The Robber?
> 
> Anyway, here's my version:
> https://clyp.it/wg15nnt3?token=6ac84feee5900162e80f399b0b6495cd
> ...


Keep practising!


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## NoamL (Nov 22, 2016)

What a great thread! 

The tightened-up Time Machine version is a BIG improvement for the Spitfire Strings. But I still hear a "musical intent" advantage for CSS. It's even more prominent in the legato example.

There's something about the phrasing of a melody constructed from samples where you can just _*tell*_ the notes are collaged together and not connected by any real musical intent - even when there's plenty of dynamics crossfading... it's like when the GPS voice in your car reads instructions to you. All of the words are OK but they don't add up to the way a human would say a sentence.

Sure it might fool a director or a layperson but _you_ know it's samples and _you_ know a real orchestra would play it so much better.

CSS also feels more "together." It doesn't just achieve the "in the same room" effect but goes beyond to some kind of magical "the sounds blend like they WOULD in a room" effect. I first noticed that when I mocked up the Elgar Serenade this fall -



It's weird that I get that sense more from CSS despite it being a drier library. I guess the section sounds have been mixed to glue together very well.

Certainly Mural is a more versatile library in terms of its vibrato and overall tone. it's closer to a platonic ideal string sound. CSS is very specific and "characteristic," could sound quite wrong in some applications.


@Christof (or anyone else with SSS) if you are interested in mocking up a small piece of the Elgar with SSS to compare you can download the Logic and MIDI *here*.


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## just2high (Nov 22, 2016)

Here's a version of The Robber using VSL Dimension Strings 1 Full. I didn't have the correct measured trem in my template so I just used the normal trems:



Thanks @Christof for sharing your piece


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## SimonCharlesHanna (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> So are there any demoes on the actual Vsl site that sounded realistic? I have yet to find one but I remember holst's Jupiter sounded a bit more believable than the others. Still though, do you have any Vienna demoes that are good you know of you can show me? Pm me if u do



I don't have time to mock up the robber but here's something I did with a similar, less cinematic feel (with chamber strings) -  Let me know how synth-y it is 

TBH I've noticed almost every post you make you have something negative to say about VSL. I just wanted to post something for the folks out there curious about VSL as I think I do a pretty good job with em

Back on topic - Lovely work Christof  very informative


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

SimonCharlesHanna said:


> I don't have time to mock up the robber but here's something I did with a similar, less cinematic feel (with chamber strings) -  Let me know how synth-y it is
> 
> TBH I've noticed almost every post you make you have something negative to say about VSL. I just wanted to post something for the folks out there curious about VSL as I think I do a pretty good job with em
> 
> Back on topic - Lovely work Christof  very informative




high strings are fine but the Cello/viola's mid range (around C3~G4 is really really synthy no matter which VSL string libraries i listen to. It's not a matter of attack or whatever but just the tone and is super unacceptably synth


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

Lotias said:


> Here's my quick rendition of The Robber with VSL Special Edition Vol. 1 (the full bundle).
> https://instaud.io/D8G
> 
> Entirely VSL, including the built-in reverb options in Vienna Instruments. I used a mix of MIRx and algorithmic, depending on the instrument. Could probably use some refinement, especially considering there's no measured tremolo for those parts. Plus, still learning to work with this library.



THe cello's tone just lacks warmth. Violins are fine but the cello/viola is atrociously synthy especially the mid range. Especially when they legato C#3 D# E F# G#


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## Scamper (Nov 22, 2016)

Christof said:


> Sure, here is the basic MIDI, have fun!



Thanks, I tried to put some effort into it. So, here's the version with Spitfire Chamber Strings.



Comparing all the versions, I probably like SCS the most in terms of sound, but after working with the piece, I would imagine to appreciate the flexibility and ease of use of CSS a great deal.

In terms of mics, I made a version with custom CTA (-6dB/-0dB/-12dB) and another with alt mics (CR, St) for fun. I would offer different mic mixes, if anybody is interested. Had to cheat a bit with the measured tremolos, they seem much more versatile in CSS. Also, I used multiple stretch values in the Time Machine patches throughout the piece and used Bartok Pizz instead of col legno to match the sound a bit more.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

Scamper said:


> Thanks, I tried to put some effort into it. So, here's the version with Spitfire Chamber Strings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




THIS... is the definition of realistic sounding string library. Sorry, Vienna folks.


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## brett (Nov 22, 2016)

@Christof - would you be able to post a version of 'Drama' with CSS with the vibrato backed off? I understand the piece is meant to be full and emotional but I'm curious if CSS can perform convincingly in situations where less (or no) vibrato is required. Can you comment on this? On the transition between non-vib and vib? How does CSS fare?

Many thanks


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## Lotias (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> THe cello's tone just lacks warmth. Violins are fine but the cello/viola is atrociously synthy especially the mid range. Especially when they legato C#3 D# E F# G#


They don't legato, in fact I used no legato patches. The real problem is probably that I left the release too long on most of the instruments and didn't bother to adjust it.
As for the cellos lacking warmth, I don't really hear it. It's just got different sounding spiccato.


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## Christof (Nov 22, 2016)

WhiteNoiz said:


> Am I the only one itching for a VSL version of The Robber?
> 
> Anyway, here's my version:
> https://clyp.it/wg15nnt3?token=6ac84feee5900162e80f399b0b6495cd
> ...


Sounds very very synthy and unrealistic, I was surprised to hear a full orchestration which doesen't work either for this piece, but it is a good exercise as you say.
I am sure you can get out much more from VSL that that!


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## Christof (Nov 22, 2016)

brett said:


> @Christof - would you be able to post a version of 'Drama' with CSS with the vibrato backed off? I understand the piece is meant to be full and emotional but I'm curious if CSS can perform convincingly in situations where less (or no) vibrato is required. Can you comment on this? On the transition between non-vib and vib? How does CSS fare?
> 
> Many thanks


Maybe later today


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## just2high (Nov 22, 2016)

NoamL said:


> What a great thread!
> 
> The tightened-up Time Machine version is a BIG improvement for the Spitfire Strings. But I still hear a "musical intent" advantage for CSS. It's even more prominent in the legato example.
> 
> ...




Here's the Elgar with SSS. I basically just took your midi and dumped it in SSS, I started tweaking then realized your programming was really awesome so just let it go. The dynamic layers don't match exactly with CSS but you get the idea.

This is with C and T mics:


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## Christof (Nov 22, 2016)

Ha!So many robbers out there, we should call the police.
VSL dimension string version sounds much better that VSL special edition (funny enough that I play in both of them because I was part of the cello section sampling sessions).
Spitfire Chamber Strings sounds very very good to me.Like a real chamber orchestra, very good!


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## brett (Nov 22, 2016)

Christof said:


> Maybe later today



Thanks Christof. It's not the end of the world if you can't. Your comments on CSS nv to vib would be just as appreciated.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 22, 2016)

Scamper said:


> Thanks, I tried to put some effort into it. So, here's the version with Spitfire Chamber Strings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your effort shows. Lovely rendering of a very entertaining piece.

I've just been noodling with Chamber strings (SCS) layered with Albion strings. So rich and buttery smooth. Its delicious. Do I really need SSS? 



...No. But I want it.


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## Lotias (Nov 22, 2016)

Christof said:


> Ha!So many robbers out there, we should call the police.
> VSL dimension string version sounds much better that VSL special edition (funny enough that I play in both of them because I was part of the cello section sampling sessions).
> Spitfire Chamber Strings sounds very very good to me.Like a real chamber orchestra, very good!


About Special Edition sounding worse, I think I made a mistake with release times on spiccatos, so keep that in mind.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

Lotias said:


> About Special Edition sounding worse, I think I made a mistake with release times on spiccatos, so keep that in mind.



That's not the only thing. The lower end strings seems lacking in certain frequency


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## Lotias (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> That's not the only thing. The lower end strings seems lacking in certain frequency


Well, he was comparing it to another one of VSL's string libraries, so unless you're saying that VSL has a string library that _isn't_ sounding artificial to you, then that's obviously not the problem.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

Lotias said:


> Well, he was comparing it to another one of VSL's string libraries, so unless you're saying that VSL has a string library that _isn't_ sounding artificial to you, then that's obviously not the problem.



No but I know for a fact any spitfire string library will easily beat Vienna even with the bugs and inconsistency. Vienna is far too overrated


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## Lotias (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> No but I know for a fact any spitfire string library will easily beat Vienna even with the bugs and inconsistency. Vienna is far too overrated


Okay, but we were both talking purely about VSL in that comparison... I think you've made your point, and I already said I disagree.


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## Christof (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> Vienna is far too overrated


We are stepping on thin ice now


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## ctsai89 (Nov 22, 2016)

Lotias said:


> Okay, but we were both talking purely about VSL in that comparison... I think you've made your point, and I already said I disagree.



i already know it sounds better but will it ever sound close to as good as SCS/SSS? doubt it


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## Lotias (Nov 22, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> i already know it sounds better but will it ever sound close to as good as SCS/SSS? doubt it


Okay, I get it.


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## NoamL (Nov 22, 2016)

@Scamper SCS sounds very very good, only problem is the runs don't sound like runs due to separate bows (no different from CSS in that regard though). 0:43 still doesn't work but it's better than either Mural version. Overall I love the dynamics and energy. It definitely has the most _con brio_ of any of the new Robbers! well done!!


@just2high SSS mockup of Elgar is conclusive proof... that CSS programming does not transfer at all to SSS


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## muk (Nov 23, 2016)

Here is another attempt with Dimension Strings:



By the way, curiously you can hear Christof playing as a Cellist in the Dimension Strings example 

There are many more examples, including Berlin Strings, in this thread:

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-strings.54192/page-14


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## ctsai89 (Nov 23, 2016)

^SSS mockup of elgar op 20. mvmt II

SO I editted the midi from noamL a bit (really just a lil bit) in order to mockup an SSS version of Elgar op. 20 movement.

please excuse the first chord being too accented as i've just noticed it

100% SSS performance legato patches. Only CC#1 involved and expression. NOthing else were involved.

I had to do the following to mix them
Violin 1 +6dbs
Violin 2 +6dbs
Viola +10dbs
cello 0
Bass +6dbs

I hope spitfire fixes this mixing problem as I am really bothered by it.

Other than the mixing problem thing.. I give this library a 9.5/10

Tell me what ya'll think


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## markleake (Nov 23, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> Ok well to me SSS sounded more herman-esque. I think tha'ts what i mean by "real" as it sounded more traditional. CSS sounded more like a midi mockup, but a very nice and beautiful one, unlike all of VSL's string libraries that sounded synthy/straight out of sibelius/finale. Both are great and I love the sounds of both so therefore one is orange and one is apple. A lot of it for SSS I think, has to do with air studio hall reverb and nice beautiful (sometimes imperfect) transitions/vibratoes/attacks. SSS will even sound realistic even if you had everything quantized at 100% to the beats. CSS is super modern beautiful and perfect to the point that I can tell it's a Midi-mockup but hey i'm a string player so no one needs to feel like they have the same kind of ears I have right?


This was my first impressions also and why I wanted to hear more of an explanation, so thank you for explaining further! There are a lot of very different opinions here, so its good hear an actual player contribute.

Personally I really like both libraries, and I think its more personal taste than any ability of either SSS or CSS to perform well with this piece that is driving people's opinions. That said, despite the various Vienna attempts, I'm not persuaded by them.


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## Vik (Nov 23, 2016)

And here they are, side by side:

SSS:


CSS: 

IMHO CSS sounds better/more expressive and alive in this example, but that could (partially) be because the mockup originally was made with CCS. 

So - @Spitfire Team  Please give SSS to Christoph, NoamL, Muk and Daniel Beijbom and have them make some demos for SSS. They all make terrific mockups.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 23, 2016)

Vik said:


> And here they are, side by side:
> 
> SSS:
> 
> ...




Yea you have to know that I barely did much editting. The cc#1 is basically based off the original. But i've done quite a bit to make the rebows sound a bit better than it otherwise would if it were unedited. And i've quantized the notes so it's not based off the CSS legato delays.


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## Vik (Nov 23, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> Yea you have to know that I barely did much editting. The cc#1 is basically based off the original. But i've done a lot to make the rebows sound a bit better than it otherwise would if it were unedited. And i've quantized the notes so it's not based off the CSS legato delays.


Sure. There are so many details to pay attention to, they react different to CCs etc, so if one should try to replicate another mockup properly, the best way is IMO to have audio bounces of each of the tracks in the mockup (in addition to MIDI with CCs of course). Otherwise it would require a lot of time, and of course still not sound the same. So if one should compare libraries with mockups, they should ideally be done by the same person, or alternatively/additionally, one could try to not make them similar at all but to make them sound the best they can with each library, which probably is what makes most sense anyway.


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## Erik (Nov 23, 2016)

The Robber, http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Robber_SCSx3.mp3 (my version here with Spitfire Chamber Strings), but added twice transposed sections (+2/-2), so eventually 15 tracks (_the transposition trick_). Will this prevent me from buying the SSS???

Great piece btw Christoff!


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 23, 2016)

desert said:


> Keep practising!



You mean sound-wise or orchestration wise (I'm mostly concerned with the orchestration aspect, tbh)?



ctsai89 said:


> is that done by all VSL? vsl strings always sounds synthy to me and this was no exception :( Great work though!





Christof said:


> Sounds very very synthy and unrealistic



Hehe, oops, sorry guys. Didn't mean to say I did it with VSL (should've made it clearer). I said it because it was mentioned before with the implication that it always sounds synthy, so I hinted that it would be interesting to see some takes with VSL. Lotias' version is quite good. (What I found interesting though is the "synthy" comment which overlapped, as I used KH Diamond for this, which isn't very "HD" sounding or super deeply sampled and gets similar critisisms, but is super easy and useful for orchestrating and quite musical performance-wise imo, which was my main focus really; also, maybe I EQed/processed too much) Interesting to see the responses though!



Christof said:


> I was surprised to hear a full orchestration which doesn't work either for this piece, but it is a good exercise as you say.



Do you have a full version of it? I'd like to see the difference in perspective. Maybe I should have another go at it, hm... But yeah, it was great exercise. Trying to improve. Good to get a check every now and then.

Btw, if you have a handful of minutes, I'm curious what you think about the sound of these tracks:
https://clyp.it/z0bw0pw5?token=7b5d31c58b7d2e88c3e48b26a1fa92fc
https://clyp.it/yhthsyem?token=115bc8cc1f582e8f9dcafe8c1093e19d
https://clyp.it/t4tz11ux?token=15c2e4622342c8e706e24112b188da1c

And sorry for kinda derailing... 

Edit: 1st Dimension Strings was a bit meh, 2nd was better (some weird ringing though), 1st SCS was pretty great, 2nd sounding ok but some weird frequencies and some chorusing or something, maybe due to transposition.

@ctsai89 Sounds a bit incoherent/unconnected and uneven performance and dynamics-wise, but pretty good sound.


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

brett said:


> Thanks Christof. It's not the end of the world if you can't. Your comments on CSS nv to vib would be just as appreciated.


@brett , https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/The%20lost%20soul%20CSS%20vib%20control.mp3 (here) is a version with CSS and vibrato crossfades, but in an emotional mood like this less vibrato sounds strange, so it's just for the record


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## tack (Nov 23, 2016)

I can't get this damn tune out of my head for two days. Thanks a lot, @Christof!


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## coprhead6 (Nov 23, 2016)

Everyone is talking about the "Realism" at :43. Let me be the first to say that it is almost impossible to play that passage cleanly at that tempo, especially as a section of violins. The musicians would be playing a variety of fingerings and would all be slightly off from the leader. Of course, the samples don't take fingerings into account and will machine gun that passage to death. 

I think the tempo should be slowed slightly to allow :43 to sound more authentic, or a different articulation should be used.


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

coprhead6 said:


> Let me be the first to say that it is almost impossible to play that passage cleanly at that tempo


Exactly, that's the reason why this is a mockup and not a real recording.That passage is tricky to play, and as you said it would sound much better played by a real group of violins, some would play very precisely, some would cheat, some would play almost trills...that's what i experienced after playing many years in a chamber orchestra.


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## Scamper (Nov 23, 2016)

NoamL said:


> @Scamper SCS sounds very very good, only problem is the runs don't sound like runs due to separate bows (no different from CSS in that regard though). 0:43 still doesn't work but it's better than either Mural version. Overall I love the dynamics and energy. It definitely has the most _con brio_ of any of the new Robbers! well done!!


Thanks. Should I have used legato/run patches for those parts instead of spiccatos? I'll try this quickly.



muk said:


> There are many more examples, including Berlin Strings, in this thread:
> http://vi-control.net/community/threads/cinematic-studio-strings.54192/page-14


I really like the Berlin Strings version since the runs are blending well. The dynamics are just a bit harsh for me.



WhiteNoiz said:


> Btw, if you have a handful of minutes, I'm curious what you think about the sound of these tracks:
> https://clyp.it/z0bw0pw5?token=7b5d31c58b7d2e88c3e48b26a1fa92fc
> https://clyp.it/yhthsyem?token=115bc8cc1f582e8f9dcafe8c1093e19d
> https://clyp.it/t4tz11ux?token=15c2e4622342c8e706e24112b188da1c


As for me, I really like the sound of the 3rd track. Is this all Kirk Hunter?


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## Scamper (Nov 23, 2016)

@NoamL Not sure, if this makes it better or worse, but I tried the legato/run patches for the 0:43 part. I tried to make them a bit accented as well, but this is horrible with CC1 dynamics.


For comparison the spiccatos:


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## ctsai89 (Nov 23, 2016)

muk said:


> Here is another attempt with Dimension Strings:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




bad news for all of us who don't own berlin strings. I think that is the most realistic yet for robbers.


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## rgames (Nov 23, 2016)

Scamper said:


> @NoamL Not sure, if this makes it better or worse, but I tried the legato/run patches for the 0:43 part. I tried to make them a bit accented as well, but this is horrible with CC1 dynamics.



Nice sound - one thing that bugs me in that rendition is the more nasal-y Vln sound at 0:31 - did you switch patches there? The 0:12 Vlns sound much less nasal-y.

Also, the start of the rise at the end sounds odd leading to the highly accented notes (e.g. 1:02). I've had this same problem with other libraries - there's almost a pitch scooping/bending sound going between the pre-downbeat note and the downbeat note. Maybe "strained" is a better way to describe the sound. I think that sounds gets covered in larger sections, so maybe the chamber size needs to not dig so hard on those notes.

The DS example sounds OK from a technical standpoint but I've never liked the timbre of that library. As a mix with LASS, though, I've found it can be useful for tracks like "Robber" because it adds some Vln bite that LASS lacks.

The SSS (time machine) and CSS examples sound great. I couldn't say one sounds better, only different.

Good exercise - thanks for the contributions.

rgames


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## just2high (Nov 23, 2016)

@Christof Wow you recorded Dimension Strings? That is so awesome! Was it difficult to sit through a session like that? The amount of articulations in the collection is staggering. Are you allowed to tell us which player you are?

@muk Thanks for sharing your mockup, the mix is killer, are you using MIR? Your template suggestions for Dimension Strings were very helpful from a thread long time ago. Unfortunately my poor computer can't quite handle using everything all the time.

@ctsai89 I don't really consider it bad news, each library has its pros and cons and a different "sound" influenced by philosophies of recording and taste. Great job on the Elgar mockup, I'm sure you didn't think "bad news" when you finished that. In an ideal world I'd love to have all of the libraries but alas... I try to go to the symphony as often as I can and invariably I'll hear something and think "I wish there was a string library that did that!" In my opinion we are all better served when there are many options.

What I really appreciated after seeing @NoamL and @Christof 's midi files is the care taken in programming and how well they knew the instrument. Having a library suited to the particular task certainly helps but actually getting a good result still takes work. I definitely learned a lot about my libraries working on those mockups as well.


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## benmrx (Nov 23, 2016)

Seriously, big thank you to everyone here for posting all these examples, and another BIG thanks to Christof for leading the charge. If anything, this thread goes to show that you can get a damn good sound out of all these libraries. Just comes down to personal taste. At this point, I'm actually leaning towards Spitfire SCS. Really..., kind of awesome problem to have.


SoNowWhat? said:


> I've just been noodling with Chamber strings (SCS) layered with Albion strings. So rich and buttery smooth. Its delicious.


Do you have any examples of this? I actually started a thread here a week or two ago about layering these two libraries. For someone on a budget (me), this seems like a very practical choice.


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## Scamper (Nov 23, 2016)

rgames said:


> Nice sound - one thing that bugs me in that rendition is the more nasal-y Vln sound at 0:31 - did you switch patches there? The 0:12 Vlns sound much less nasal-y.


I've only switched the articulation for the part 0:21-0:30 to staccato dig to get a bit more roughness, which might not have been the best decision. Otherwise it's all the same spiccato patch.
Sorry, my hearing isn't quite there to notice the issues you've mentioned.


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## camelot (Nov 23, 2016)

NoamL said:


> What a great thread!
> ... I first noticed that when I mocked up the Elgar Serenade this fall -
> 
> 
> ...



Woah! This rendition is amazing. Though I do not know the original, this sounds so realistic and the timbre is just perfect. I am sitting here with my studio headphones on and especially in the first half, I am not able to recognize the typical sound of samples which I hear everytime I listen to other mokups, no matter which string library is used.
Is this out of the box sound? 

The SSS renditon is great as well but not as good as CSS.

These comparison threads are always great.


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

just2high said:


> @Christof Wow you recorded Dimension Strings? That is so awesome! Was it difficult to sit through a session like that? The amount of articulations in the collection is staggering. Are you allowed to tell us which player you are?


These sessions were extremely difficult but we were used to it and we had a wonderful time and an amazing VSL team behind us, in total I recorded about 15 years for VSL, maybe more to come  let's see what they plan in future.
I guess I should be player number 3, but I don't know if it starts from left to right or right to left in the final product.


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 23, 2016)

My Berlin Strings test:


Used just the tree mics. For quieter parts I used Spiccato and for other parts Exposed Spiccato. Tweaked the dynamics a bit here and there to match the original better. Great exercise and a great composition!  The differences between the libraries are quite interesting.


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

Okay, next step in this thread:Let's do a dubstep remix of The Robber 
Seriously, it's amazing to hear all those different versions, very very interesting to compare the libraries and the people who put their talented hands on my midi file.
Actually this little piece was written for 6 cellos for a film music competition, I did the string orchestra version later.


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## muk (Nov 23, 2016)

Thanks just2high. I don't have MIR. I'm still using Origami as written in the tutorial you mentioned.


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## desert (Nov 23, 2016)

Christof said:


> Okay, next step in this thread:Let's do a dubstep remix of The Robber
> Seriously, it's amazing to hear all those different versions, very very interesting to compare the libraries and the people who put their talented hands on my midi file.
> Actually this little piece was written for 6 cellos for a film music competition, I did the string orchestra version later.


DId you win?


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

yes


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## brett (Nov 23, 2016)

Christof said:


> @brett , https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/The%20lost%20soul%20CSS%20vib%20control.mp3 (here) is a version with CSS and vibrato crossfades, but in an emotional mood like this less vibrato sounds strange, so it's just for the record



Much appreciated! Yes, I agree that the molto vib is better in this piece but it's good to hear it with a little less. Still pretty convincing. 

Most of the demos I've heard seem to be very heavy on the vibrato. Are you personally happy with the degree of control from non-vib to vib?


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

brett said:


> Much appreciated! Yes, I agree that the molto vib is better in this piece but it's good to hear it with a little less. Still pretty convincing.
> 
> Most of the demos I've heard seem to be very heavy on the vibrato. Are you personally happy with the degree of control from non-vib to vib?


No, in my opinion the crossfade from non vibrato to molto vibrato is not very well balanced, but it works, in SSS it doesn't work at all, but I am sure Spitfire will give us an update on this.
But I guess this is very tricky to do, so let's be patient.


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

A little hint from me as string player to non string players: We tend to reduce vibrato at lower dynamics, we use more vibrato at higher dynamics, I don't know exactly why, but this is the nature/DNA of a string player.
So for a crescendo rise the amount of vibrato, for diminuendo reduce it.
This is a very basic rule and it does not work in all cases.
You will almost never find a string player who uses intense vibrato at a very low dynamic.
It's like whispering at a Metallica concert.


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## desert (Nov 23, 2016)

Christof said:


> A little hint from me as string player to non string players: We tend to reduce vibrato at lower dynamics, we use more vibrato at higher dynamics, I don't know exactly why, but this is the nature/DNA of a string player.
> So for a crescendo rise the amount of vibrato, for diminuendo reduce it.
> You will almost never find a string player who uses intense vibrato at a very low dynamic.
> It's like whispering at a Metallica concert.


I think we need a legato comparison thread now. Any chance the robber can fly?


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

no chance  The police was faster.


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## coprhead6 (Nov 23, 2016)

Christof said:


> Exactly, that's the reason why this is a mockup and not a real recording.



I completely understand. I was just trying to let people know that they shouldn't be expecting a high level of realism in the fast spiccato at :43 from any library.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 23, 2016)

Christof said:


> A little hint from me as string player to non string players: We tend to reduce vibrato at lower dynamics, we use more vibrato at higher dynamics, I don't know exactly why, but this is the nature/DNA of a string player.
> So for a crescendo rise the amount of vibrato, for diminuendo reduce it.
> This is a very basic rule and it does not work in all cases.
> You will almost never find a string player who uses intense vibrato at a very low dynamic.
> It's like whispering at a Metallica concert.



not necessarily. Depends... 
A cello mentor I used to have was Russian (obviously the Russian school type) and he would say "don't lose vibrato when you're playing softer" and he always emphasized that our left arm/hand (for the notes) and our right hand/arm (for the bow/sound) need to be isolated and not affect eachother too much. 

I think the germano-romano way of cello playing is different from Russian school of playing.


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## ctsai89 (Nov 23, 2016)

hmm ok so I think i kind of wish SSS had sul A legato patches for violins. It's too bright right now


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## Lawson. (Nov 23, 2016)

Great thread, Christof! I've been really enjoying hearing all of these different string libraries compared to each other, with a fantastic base piece as well!

I also have created a Berlin Strings version. Maybe if I have time I should try out HS, as no one seems to have posted one so far.



[Note: I have received free products from Orchestral Tools]


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## Saxer (Nov 23, 2016)

Christof said:


> I guess I should be player number 3, but I don't know if it starts from left to right or right to left in the final product.


Nice to meet you, No3! I spent a lot time with your cello, editing instruments, templating, composing...


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## ctsai89 (Nov 23, 2016)

HEY! spitfire just fixed the SSS volume issues! seems like it's all balanced to normal now!


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## JBacal (Nov 23, 2016)

I had to throw my hat in the ring. Here's a rendition using VSL Orchestral Strings (mostly staccato shorts). The mix is on the dry side (especially when compared to the Berlin rendition), but it could easily be placed in a wetter space if desired.

Thanks Christof for letting us muck around with your wonderful composition!

Best wishes,
Jay


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## D-Mott (Nov 23, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> Great thread, Christof! I've been really enjoying hearing all of these different string libraries compared to each other, with a fantastic base piece as well!
> 
> I also have created a Berlin Strings version. Maybe if I have time I should try out HS, as no one seems to have posted one so far.
> 
> ...




Someone did do a HS version, but to me it didn't sound very good. I think the HS shorts sound better when using the close mics as the lead mic. The other mics take away the bite and sound a little muddy and lack definition. I would try it with the HS close mics, but I just know what I would get my self into. Hours and Hours of tweaking vel/dynamics/timing. As I said in another thread, with the HS shorts you will be at vel 65, then when you go to vel 66 it changes the sample and jumps in volume. The only way I have got anything convincing out of the shorts is to play everything as normal. Adjust CC7 on all the bumps. After that, convert the MIDI to Audio and then get the timing of the notes on the grid. Lot's of them have different timing. It's possible to get a good sound, but just lot's and lot's of work. I have seen other string libs that reduce the work loud by half because they have done the dynamic crossfading correctly.


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## higgs (Nov 23, 2016)

I had a day spent with this melody bouncing around my noggin'. Pretty infectious tune indeed. Certainly better than yesterday's unfortunate & unrelenting bout with the Spin Doctors, "Pocket Full of Kryptonite."

Kudos.


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## desert (Nov 23, 2016)

It reminds me so much of zooster's breakout from madagascar


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## just2high (Nov 23, 2016)

@Christof This may be a bit off topic now but in terms of legato, when would string player bow legato versus finger legato? When working with SSS I prefer using the legacy legato patch so I can force portamento or runs, but always wondered about the fingered versus bow. I'm assuming it has to do with the distance between the notes and which string the note is on?


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## Bulb (Nov 23, 2016)

It's so awesome to hear all of these renditions. Christof thanks for being so generous with your MIDI, and I have to say it's a wonderfully composed piece.


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## Joe_D (Nov 23, 2016)

just2high said:


> @Christof This may be a bit off topic now but in terms of legato, when would string player bow legato versus finger legato? When working with SSS I prefer using the legacy legato patch so I can force portamento or runs, but always wondered about the fingered versus bow. I'm assuming it has to do with the distance between the notes and which string the note is on?


I'm not Christof, but I think that you are mixing up concepts here. Slurred legato versus "bow change legato" (really _detaché_) is one category of string composing/playing decisions. This is a right hand decision. Fingered versus shifted note change is a different concept, and is often up to each individual player. This is a left hand decision (though the right hand contributes during string crossings to facilitate the fingering, so it is considered as well).

In slurred legato, all of the notes are played on one bow (one movement of the bow in the same direction). The notes under the slur are smoothly connected, as would be a melisma in singing (say, a phrase all sung on the vowel "aah," for instance). In "bow change legato" (a term that really comes from the VI world, it's generally _detaché_ to a string player), each note is started and articulated by a change of direction of the bow (or by a new start in the same direction in the case of consecutive up-bows and the like), which yields an articulation similar to a consonant in vocal music (say, a phrase sung on the syllables "tah, tah, tah, tah," or "doo, be, doo, be, doo" ). In written music, the composer decides on the slurring and writes it in the score/part, so that the player is directed when to articulate a note with a bow change and when to smoothly connect them on one bow.

Fingered versus shifted note changes are often decided by the player, and are influenced by the position of the hand as the player navigates through the notes to come, the choice of tone color for the note as it appears in the context of the phrase (a note in a lower position on a higher string will have a more strident timbre than the same note played in a higher position on a lower string, for instance), and the expressive content of the line (a shift can call attention to a note in a pleasing way, a neighboring motion might be executed on the same string for timbral continuity, etc.). It is common in a section for different players to choose different fingerings, and some will shift between two notes while others finger those same two notes on the same string without a shift. Really good players get good at "hiding" shifts so that you don't really notice them, unless they want you to for expressive purposes (and they have a repertoire of different types of shifts for those different purposes). There are certainly passages where the composer, conductor, or first chair player will ask for an expressive shift on a certain interval, or will specify a fingering in a certain spot, or that a passage should be played on a certain string. But, often, the player decides.


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## just2high (Nov 23, 2016)

Joe_D said:


> I'm not Christof, but I think that you are mixing up concepts here. Slurred legato versus "bow change legato" (really _detaché_) is one category of string composing/playing decisions. This is a right hand decision. Fingered versus shifted note change is a different concept, and is often up to each individual player. This is a left hand decision (though the right hand contributes during string crossings to facilitate the fingering, so it is considered as well).
> 
> In slurred legato, all of the notes are played on one bow (one movement of the bow in the same direction). The notes under the slur are smoothly connected, as would be a melisma in singing (say, a phrase all sung on the vowel "aah," for instance). In "bow change legato" (a term that really comes from the VI world, it's generally _detaché_ to a string player), each note is started and articulated by a change of direction of the bow (or by a new start in the same direction in the case of consecutive up-bows and the like), which yields an articulation similar to a consonant in vocal music (say, a phrase sung on the syllables "tah, tah, tah, tah," or "doo, be, doo, be, doo" ). In written music, the composer decides on the slurring and writes it in the score/part, so that the player is directed when to articulate a note with a bow change and when to smoothly connect them on one bow.
> 
> Fingered versus shifted note changes are often decided by the player, and are influenced by the position of the hand as the player navigates through the notes to come, the choice of tone color for the note as it appears in the context of the phrase (a note in a lower position on a higher string will have a more strident timbre than the same note played in a higher position on a lower string, for instance), and the expressive content of the line (a shift can call attention to a note in a pleasing way). It is common in a section for different players to choose different fingerings, and some will shift between two notes while others finger those same two notes on the same string without a shift. Really good players get good at "hiding" shifts so that you don't really notice them, unless they want you to for expressive purposes (and they have a repertoire of different types of shifts for those different purposes). There are certainly passages where the composer, conductor, or first chair player will ask for an expressive shift on a certain interval, or will specify a fingering in a certain spot, or that a passage should be played on a certain string. But, often, the player decides.



Thanks for the explanation, so in essence the "bowed" legato means forcing a bow change?


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## Joe_D (Nov 23, 2016)

just2high said:


> Thanks for the explanation, so in essence the "bowed" legato means forcing a bow change?



Yes.

And thanks to Cristof for sharing his well-composed piece and for starting this informative thread. I am enjoying the various realizations.


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## Christof (Nov 23, 2016)

desert said:


> I think we need a legato comparison thread now. Any chance the robber can fly?


My fingers are itching, I will try a short piece.


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## Vik (Nov 23, 2016)

desert said:


> I think we need a legato comparison thread now.


It would be great with a new file for legato comparison, but don't forget that we already have a few brilliant pieces on this forum already, eg those I mentioned here:
http://vi-control.net/community/threads/spitfire-ot-etc-please-make-string-demos-like-these.57048/
...just in case, I mean.


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## Christof (Nov 24, 2016)

Yes, you are right, after listening to these I don't need to try to top that


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## Vik (Nov 24, 2016)

I'm sure you'd make a brilliant piece, Christoph, so please feel the pressure and don't stop that itching quote yet!  We don't know if @muk , @NoamL or @DanielBeijbom are OK with handing out their project or MIDI files either (there's no reason to assume or expect this is something everybody will do), but it would be really interesting to have some legato files for further comparisons. This thread has already become one of the most interesting threads on VI-C – and I have the feeling that when comparing legato pieces, it will become even more interesting.


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## Christof (Nov 24, 2016)

I don't know, especially Daniels piece is so fantastic, so well written and performed.It's amazing.
It would be wonderful if he shared his midi, but I would totally understand if he refuses.
Anyway, I posted a short legato passage earlier, this should be enough.


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 24, 2016)

SilentBob said:


> Wow, amazing. This, before the second, previous BS-version, is for me the winner, if this were a competition. It has the right amount of agility and aggressetivity which in my opinion fits perfect to the piece. And it sounds astonishing real.
> 
> Even if this is the winner for me, there is no real flop or loser. All the other versions have their strengh or at least their own character. Its really hard to decide.
> 
> Thanks a lot for this beautiful thread. So much fun.



Thanks a lot! True, libraries have different characters, and I guess the small section sizes give a nice edge to the shorts and still can sound spacious with tree mics. Especially the exposed spiccato in Berlin Strings and the tree mic sound great. With bigger section size libraries, I guess you might have to bring a bit more close mics for this kind of compositions.



Lawson. said:


> Great thread, Christof! I've been really enjoying hearing all of these different string libraries compared to each other, with a fantastic base piece as well!
> 
> I also have created a Berlin Strings version. Maybe if I have time I should try out HS, as no one seems to have posted one so far.
> 
> ...




Sounds great Lawson! Which articulations did you use and which mics?

Just to keep robbers going, and the thread continuing, here are all the versions so far:

*SSS*:


*CSS TM*:


*CSS*:
https://soundcloud.com/christof-unterberger/the-robber-css
https://soundcloud.com/ben-kersten/css-strings-eq-test-robber

*Cinesamples Strings:*


*KH Diamond*:
https://clyp.it/wg15nnt3?token=6ac84feee5900162e80f399b0b6495cd

*VSL SE Vol1:*
https://instaud.io/D8G

*VSL Dimension Strings:*

https://soundcloud.com/linos-music/christof-unterberger-the-robber-dimension-strings-mockup

*VSL Orchestral Strings:*
https://soundcloud.com/jay-bacal/the-robber-by-christof-unterberger-using-vsl-v2


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## Lassi Tani (Nov 24, 2016)

*SCS:*




http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Robber_SCSx3.mp3

*Berlin Strings:*


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## desert (Nov 24, 2016)

A quick knock up of Hollywood Strings


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## Polarity (Nov 24, 2016)

Christof said:


> I don't know, especially Daniels piece is so fantastic, so well written and performed.It's amazing.
> It would be wonderful if he shared his midi, but I would totally understand if he refuses.
> Anyway, I posted a short legato passage earlier, this should be enough.



Right... maybe I missed that before (I don't find a post with it) but can I have the midi of your Drama Test, please?
I'd like to try it with the strings I have already (LASS Lite, CineStrings, Albion One, Metropolis Ark1) to decide what to get among the three libraries in my wishlist.
Yep, I'm still undecided.


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## jamwerks (Nov 24, 2016)

Great thread! BOS sounds great also. Maybe does the best here for the passage "43-50". Wish the sections were bigger though, does sound "chamberish" to me. And amazing how well HS holds-up for an 8 year-old library!


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## Erik (Nov 24, 2016)

Second version: herewith the SCS (tripled with transposed tracks) again, http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Robber_SCSx3_TM.mp3 (this time with the TimeMachine patches). Better, I think.


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## Scamper (Nov 24, 2016)

Vik said:


> We don't know if @muk , @NoamL or @DanielBeijbom are OK with handing out their project or MIDI files either (there's no reason to assume or expect this is something everybody will do), but it would be really interesting to have some legato files for further comparisons.



@NoamL already provided his files for the Elgar Op. 20 Mvt II. I'll try to do it with SCS.
http://vi-control.net/community/thr...e-symphonic-strings.57432/page-5#post-4018420


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## jeremiahpena (Nov 24, 2016)

I've had this tune stuck in my head so much the past few days, I had no choice but to have a go as well.

This is Hollywood Strings Gold! Spiccatos on all but cellos, which use staccatissimo. There's also liberal use of the staccato slur patches for 1st and 2nds. First, completely dry for fair comparison's sake:
https://clyp.it/f422aba1

And next with some reverb, because I like reverb:
https://clyp.it/hlwma4mu


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## Christof (Nov 24, 2016)

I provided a score of The Robber if someone is interested, just for the record.
There are many divisi sections that I didn't program as divisi in my mockup, but I could have done it, just was too lazy.Click on the link for the full score.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/The%20Robber.pdf (The Robber PDF)


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## Christof (Nov 24, 2016)

jeremiahpena said:


> I've had this tune stuck in my head so much the past few days, I had no choice but to have a go as well.
> 
> This is Hollywood Strings Gold! Spiccatos on all but cellos, which use staccatissimo. There's also liberal use of the staccato slur patches for 1st and 2nds. First, completely dry for fair comparison's sake:
> 
> ...



I prefer the version with reverb


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## Lawson. (Nov 24, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> Sounds great Lawson! Which articulations did you use and which mics?



Thanks! I used just the default tree mics on everything. Articulations were spiccato, exposed spiccato, blurred staccato, staccato, pizzicato, Bartok pizz, and accent tremolo.

Edit: blurred staccato not spiccato


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## tack (Nov 24, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> Articulations were spiccato, exposed spiccato, blurred spiccato, staccato, pizzicato, Bartok pizz, and accent tremolo.


What do you mean by exposed and blurred spiccato?


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## Lawson. (Nov 24, 2016)

tack said:


> What do you mean by exposed and blurred spiccato?



The exposed spiccato has more of a sharper, snappier sound than the normal spiccato, and the blurred staccato is slightly detuned and longer to help blur runs.


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## tack (Nov 24, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> There are multiple types of spiccato in Berlin Strings.


You replied just as I was about to retract my question. I thought you were talking about SSS. 

The Berlin demo does sound pretty good. Thanks for sharing!


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## ctsai89 (Nov 24, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> Thanks a lot! True, libraries have different characters, and I guess the small section sizes give a nice edge to the shorts and still can sound spacious with tree mics. Especially the exposed spiccato in Berlin Strings and the tree mic sound great. With bigger section size libraries, I guess you might have to bring a bit more close mics for this kind of compositions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







What would you all think of the idea of layering SCS cellos into SSS to mockup robber? it seems that cellos are not as aggressive as the cellos in Cinesamples.


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## Erik (Nov 24, 2016)

SilentBob said:


> Huhhhh, no. I really love your first version, for me one of the best here. In comparison a little bit tame and sluggish, but very natural with great character. But this TimeMachine-version, of course more tight and crisp, destroys this completely. Compared with your first version for me a real decline. Sorry, not better in my opinion.
> 
> I don't have Sable, but what I have heard so far I love the sound of it and I will buy it some day. There are another examples somewhere here with TimeMachine-Patches which I also dislike. So a general problem for me. Very artifical and awful and ruining its great sound.



In a way you're right: the first version is supposed to be more relaxed and natural, but many versions here are based on the _spiccato-to-the-max_ idea. So I was challenged to try out a very same (TM-) version with the SCS (x3) when I started the second version. 
I guess that a real string ensemble wouldn't be able to perform this _spiccato-to-the-max _on _this _speed. But maybe I'm wrong. On the other hand this piece gets a (meant to be?) special effect with these crazy short notes imo.

Thanks anyway for your feedback on the first version. I think the sound of SCS is just gorgeous, very intimate, warm, flexible. It is a privilege to work with this library in many ways.


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## Lawson. (Nov 24, 2016)

Erik said:


> In a way you're right: the first version is supposed to be more relaxed and natural, but many versions here are based on the _spiccato-to-the-max_ idea. So I was challenged to try out a very same (TM-) version with the SCS (x3) when I started the second version.
> I guess that a real string ensemble wouldn't be able to perform this _spiccato-to-the-max _on _this _speed. But maybe I'm wrong. On the other hand this piece gets a (meant to be?) special effect with these crazy short notes imo.



Yeah, playing those runs as spiccato would be really difficult, and would probably end up sounding blurred anyway.


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## Christof (Nov 24, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> Yeah, playing those runs as spiccato would be really difficult, and would probably end up sounding blurred anyway.


Not too difficult, I can play it on my Cello, look at the https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/The%20Robber.pdf (score) I provided earlier.


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## Lawson. (Nov 24, 2016)

Christof said:


> Not too difficult, I can play it on my Cello, look at the https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/The%20Robber.pdf (score) I provided earlier.



I stand corrected; just checked out the score and indeed it is definitely playable. I don't think it would be as tight as some of the examples, though.


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## Lotias (Nov 24, 2016)

JBacal said:


> I had to throw my hat in the ring. Here's a rendition using VSL Orchestral Strings (mostly staccato shorts). The mix is on the dry side (especially when compared to the Berlin rendition), but it could easily be placed in a wetter space if desired.
> 
> Thanks Christof for letting us muck around with your wonderful composition!
> 
> ...



Well that about confirms that I left the release times too high... The Special Edition uses the same sample set as Orchestral Strings, just more limited.


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## JBacal (Nov 24, 2016)

Hi @Lotias -- the full VSL Orchestral Strings Library (standard + extended) actually has many more articulation types than the Special Edition Library. For example, the Orchestral Strings Library includes short staccatos, long staccatos and performance repetition staccatos. The Special Edition only has "Staccatos" which I'm guessing are the "long" staccatos. 

But if you have Vienna Instruments Pro, then you can create your own shorter staccatos patch by using the time stretching (shrinking?) feature.


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## Lotias (Nov 24, 2016)

JBacal said:


> Hi @Lotias -- the full VSL Orchestral Strings Library (standard + extended) actually has many more articulation types than the Special Edition Library. For example, the Ochestral Strings Library includes short staccatos, long staccatos and performance repetition staccatos. The Special Edition only has "Staccatos" which I'm guessing are the "long" staccatos.
> 
> But if you have Vienna Instruments Pro, then you can create your own shorter staccatos patch by using the time stretching (shrinking?) feature.


Actually the performance repetition patch you get in the PLUS extension is listed as spiccato in VI, I used a mix of those and didn't think to turn the release time down after I added reverb (bad habit of turning up the release time when I'm working without reverb so it sounds more natural). Special Edition gives you a fair number of essentials, and even a few non-essentials, although it's true that the full library has more articulations. The main difference for me though is the number of dynamic layers.

and I do have PRO, it's just that I didn't need to use the stretch feature since the performance repetition spiccatos were already shorter - I actually used a mix of staccato and spiccato in that to accent phrases


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## WhiteNoiz (Nov 25, 2016)

Scamper said:


> As for me, I really like the sound of the 3rd track. Is this all Kirk Hunter?



No, it's a reference track. I thought I got quite close to the sound though (the playing probably not so much; I'm not too sure, the playing is obviously off at parts - on the strings I used sus with accents because I feel it blends better, maybe it'd been closer with pure shorts, trumpets could be better, trombones/tuba I quite like, tbh). I feel it's quite close to that sound generally, albeit not super deep/silky. I guess I need to try a bit harder.


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## jamwerks (Nov 25, 2016)

Would be interesting as a reference to hear a live sextet recording!


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## Christof (Nov 25, 2016)

We performed it as a cello sextet, not sure if someone recorded it.


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## Erik (Nov 25, 2016)

Next one, just found this library under some dust on my HD: http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Robber_SSP.mp3 (Session Strings Pro). Unexpected result...
Anyway, nice for the sake of completeness. Do we miss a library after all these contributions?


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## Christof (Nov 25, 2016)

Erik said:


> Next one, just found this library under some dust on my HD: http://www.erikotte.nl/VI/Robber_SSP.mp3 (Session Strings Pro). Unexpected result...
> Anyway, nice for the sake of completeness. Do we miss a library after all these contributions?


LASS has wonderful shorts, even divisi groups.
Haven't used LASS for a long time, but at the moment I am a bit tired of The Robber


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## muk (Nov 25, 2016)

Erik said:


> Do we miss a library after all these contributions?



Light & Sound Chamber Strings I think. Would be nice to hear an example with this library as it is discounted heavily at the moment and sells for a very reasonable price.


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## Polarity (Nov 25, 2016)

Christof said:


> LASS has wonderful shorts, even divisi groups.
> Haven't used LASS for a long time, but at the moment I am a bit tired of The Robber


I still use them actually (well, LASS Lite, no divisi then)...
they can be so aggressive with the SLAM variations and double tracking switch
and till now only CSS shorts seem to have impressed me at the same level.
At the moment often I'm layering LASS shorts upon those from Albion One and Ark1, sometimes even on QLSO old shorts if it was a track I began with them years ago.
However after this long topic I'm really considering of getting CSS now... changing my initial idea.


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## Christof (Nov 25, 2016)

Polarity said:


> I still use them actually (well, LASS Lite, no divisi then)...
> they can be so aggressive with the SLAM variations and double tracking switch
> and till now only CSS shorts seem to have impressed me at the same level.
> At the moment often I'm layering LASS shorts upon those from Albion One and Ark1, sometimes even on QLSO old shorts if it was a track I began with them years ago.
> However after this long topic I'm really considering of getting CSS now... changing my initial idea.


Yes, CSS is a wonderful choice!Go for it.


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## -Janne- (Nov 25, 2016)

Hi!

Here's my version with HW strings.



Thanks @Christof for such a great composition! 

-Janne


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## Christof (Nov 25, 2016)

-Janne- said:


> Hi!
> 
> Here's my version with HW strings.
> 
> ...



Thanks, but honestly, after all, aren't you all tired listening to this little piece?


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## tigersun (Nov 25, 2016)

muk said:


> Light & Sound Chamber Strings I think. Would be nice to hear an example with this library as it is discounted heavily at the moment and sells for a very reasonable price.



I almost hope not. I don't need to be convinced to buy anything else right now.


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## Vik (Nov 25, 2016)

Christof said:


> Thanks, but honestly, after all, aren't you all tired listening to this little piece?


 Even my son is walking around whistling it now.


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## Christof (Nov 25, 2016)

Vik said:


> Even my son is walking around whistling it now.


Maybe I should thinking about selling it


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 25, 2016)

Christof said:


> I provided a score of The Robber if someone is interested, just for the record.
> There are many divisi sections that I didn't program as divisi in my mockup, but I could have done it, just was too lazy.Click on the link for the full score.
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/43286649/The%20Robber.pdf (The Robber PDF)


You dead set freaking legend Christof!! 
Thank you for being so generous and sharing what really is a wonderful piece.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 25, 2016)

benmrx said:


> Do you have any examples of this? I actually started a thread here a week or two ago about layering these two libraries. For someone on a budget (me), this seems like a very practical choice.


Hi Ben, sorry I missed this. I have linked to a file of my noodling in dropbox if you want to have a listen.
This is all straight out of the box from Albion One strings + Violin 1s from SCS + Celli from SCS and is only longs. No added verb apart from just a smidge of Lush Verb in Albion One (but that's just AIR right?), no added effects. The only tweaking I did was adjusting mic mixes to try and balance things between the chamber strings and whole ensemble in One. I also had a strange phasing type artefact (I don't see how it could be phasing but that's the best way I can describe how it sounded in the mix). It was coming from Violin 1 tree mics, so I had to drop their level down to compensate. I will post some details of the mic mixes in a moment. This was also all on a single track in a single instance and channel of Kontakt, so there's way more flexibility in this than I'm showing here.

Albion One + SCS test audio

Edit
Mic mixes (0 = bottom notch, +6 = top)
One: T+6, O+3.5 (C and A are zero).
SCS Violin 1: T+2, A+4.5 (C zero).
SCS Celli: T+3, A+5.5 (C zero).


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## benmrx (Nov 27, 2016)

Not to be 'that guy' that brings this tune back into everyone's head, but I just wanted to say how important this thread was in making my choice on which library to go for. In the end..., I went with SCS. There's just something about the sound that really pulls me in, and I start to forget I'm listening to samples. 



SoNowWhat? said:


> Hi Ben, sorry I missed this. I have linked to a file of my noodling in dropbox if you want to have a listen.
> This is all straight out of the box from Albion One strings + Violin 1s from SCS + Celli from SCS and is only longs. No added verb apart from just a smidge of Lush Verb in Albion One (but that's just AIR right?), no added effects. The only tweaking I did was adjusting mic mixes to try and balance things between the chamber strings and whole ensemble in One. I also had a strange phasing type artefact (I don't see how it could be phasing but that's the best way I can describe how it sounded in the mix). It was coming from Violin 1 tree mics, so I had to drop their level down to compensate. I will post some details of the mic mixes in a moment. This was also all on a single track in a single instance and channel of Kontakt, so there's way more flexibility in this than I'm showing here.
> 
> Albion One + SCS test audio
> ...



Thanks for sharing! I was 'this' close to also getting Albion One today but backed off. That said, I do have Albion II Loegria so I'm really looking forward to seeing how SCS and Loegria blend.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 27, 2016)

benmrx said:


> Not to be 'that guy' that brings this tune back into everyone's head, but I just wanted to say how important this thread was in making my choice on which library to go for. In the end..., I went with SCS. There's just something about the sound that really pulls me in, and I start to forget I'm listening to samples.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing! I was 'this' close to also getting Albion One today but backed off. That said, I do have Albion II Loegria so I'm really looking forward to seeing how SCS and Loegria blend.


I would expect they will blend well (as One and SCS do) though I don't have Loegria. SCS is really great, I hope you enjoy it. Also check the "trick" for multi-tracking SCS to create a larger ensemble (if you need one). Basically transpose (by 3+ semitones) then correct the pitch to match original. I've not tried it yet but is supposed to work well. As the samples are done on whole tones, in order to avoid any phasing you need to be transposed far enough away from the original to be playing a different sample. Hope that helps.
I listened back to the file I shared and felt it had a tendency to slightly synthy. This is NOT the reality of playing with these samples and is probably just because it was all longs with no articulation changes to break it up.

Have fun.


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## tack (Nov 27, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> a smidge of Lush Verb in Albion One (but that's just AIR right?)


Nope, it's an impulse response from a different space, not Air Lyndhurst.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 27, 2016)

tack said:


> Nope, it's an impulse response from a different space, not Air Lyndhurst.


Ahhh. Thank you Tack. I didn't know that.


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## dgburns (Nov 27, 2016)

Christof said:


> Maybe I should thinking about selling it



Dude, this is a great cue. I'm not sure Lass would advance it beyond your original versions.


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## tack (Nov 27, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Ahhh. Thank you Tack. I didn't know that.


I got excited myself when I saw the reverb slider in Albion One. It wouldn't be hard to extract the impulse response from the patch -- imagine having the sound of Air Lyndhurst on all my dry instruments? But I remembered that Air Studios forbids impulse response measurements of the hall, or at least publicly sharing them, so I figured it was a long shot. I did email Spitfire support and they confirmed that, indeed, the IR is not from The Hall.


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## Light and Sound (Nov 28, 2016)

muk said:


> Light & Sound Chamber Strings I think. Would be nice to hear an example with this library as it is discounted heavily at the moment and sells for a very reasonable price.



I hope you don't mind Christof (and if you do please do let us know and we'll remove this track, though I have kept it private rather than public), but I took the liberty of using the midi file for this fine composition provided in the thread and ran it through L&S CS, with a touch of reverb (lx480 for those wondering) just to throw it in the mix 



The mics used are the XY and Bleed mics, with the bass having a bit of close for clarity.


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## AllanH (Nov 28, 2016)

L&S CS sound especially good with the EWQL Berlin Church B 2.2 sec reverb. Colors and blends the ensemble very nicely, at least in my tests.


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## tack (Nov 28, 2016)

@Light and Sound the timing doesn't seem right with V1/V2 in the first 11 seconds?


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## ClefferNotes (Nov 28, 2016)

Man... I have had this theme playing in my head all week, and I am so glad because it is an amazing track!


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## NoamL (Nov 28, 2016)

@Light and Sound wow that is the first demo that sounds to me MORE like real strings than the CSS track. Some of the attacks are a little less convincing than CSS but the overall string tone & level of energy/ferociousness is just right for this piece!! The spiccatos are really well sampled for repetitions too. The illusion of the bow bouncing repeatedly on the string is totally there.

Right now I think I'm liking L&S, CSS and SCS the most out of all the versions. 

However, on comparison the transients do seem less consistently lined up than Sable or CSS (assuming that you used quantized MIDI). Perhaps that can be updated?


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## midiman (Nov 28, 2016)

Light and Sound said:


> I hope you don't mind Christof (and if you do please do let us know and we'll remove this track, though I have kept it private rather than public), but I took the liberty of using the midi file for this fine composition provided in the thread and ran it through L&S CS, with a touch of reverb (lx480 for those wondering) just to throw it in the mix
> 
> 
> 
> The mics used are the XY and Bleed mics, with the bass having a bit of close for clarity.




Pretty convincing to me. This is the best demo of the Light and Sound Chamber orchestra so far. I am going to have to look at this library again. Good job.


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## Vik (Nov 28, 2016)

Light and Sound said:


> I hope you don't mind Christof (and if you do please do let us know and we'll remove this track, though I have kept it private rather than public), but I took the liberty of using the midi file for this fine composition provided in the thread and ran it through L&S CS, with a touch of reverb (lx480 for those wondering) just to throw it in the mix
> 
> 
> 
> The mics used are the XY and Bleed mics, with the bass having a bit of close for clarity.



That sounds very and surprisingly good to me, since all I've heard of L&S Samples Chamber Strings shorts so far are those demoed in this clip, around 2.30:




Personally – if they have the potential to sound as good as they obviously have with Christoph's piece, I wouldn't have made a new YouTube walkthrough/demo/playthrough which demonstrates how good these chamber shorts can sound!


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## Christof (Nov 29, 2016)

Light and Sound said:


> I hope you don't mind Christof (and if you do please do let us know and we'll remove this track, though I have kept it private rather than public), but I took the liberty of using the midi file for this fine composition provided in the thread and ran it through L&S CS, with a touch of reverb (lx480 for those wondering) just to throw it in the mix
> 
> 
> 
> The mics used are the XY and Bleed mics, with the bass having a bit of close for clarity.



Sounds cool, I would rise the volume of the double bass, this part is so important in this piece.
I didn't know that L&S exists, how could I miss that?
I shared the midi file here in public so there is no reason to worry about these issues 
It's up to you to keep it private or public.


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## gpax (Nov 29, 2016)

I think there's a bit of a quandary here, though I will trust it is not intentional. I'm seeing the discussion shift from user submissions and recommendations about these great choices, to potentially speaking to the developer of a library now also represented. I'm simply invoking etiquette and protocols here, in keeping the ethos of user-based comparisons of Christof's piece that has made this such a unique thread.


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## Light and Sound (Nov 29, 2016)

gpax said:


> I think there's a bit of a quandary here, though I will trust it is not intentional. I'm seeing the discussion shift from user submissions and recommendations about these great choices, to potentially speaking to the developer of a library now also represented. I'm simply invoking etiquette and protocols here, in keeping the ethos of user-based comparisons of Christof's piece that has made this such a unique thread.



My apologies if this is how it comes across, we simply saw a request for an example and wanted to provide - we'll be sure to stay out of the conversation to not appear invasive or sway the conversation in any specific direction.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Nov 29, 2016)

Light and Sound said:


> My apologies if this is how it comes across



It didn't come across that way.

Some people are just over defensive.


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## AllanH (Nov 29, 2016)

Light and Sound said:


> My apologies if this is how it comes across, we simply saw a request for an example and wanted to provide - we'll be sure to stay out of the conversation to not appear invasive or sway the conversation in any specific direction.


I think it would make a lot of sense for you to start a new thread "The Robber L&S Chamber Strings" and continue the conversation and refinement there. This thread was originally about The Robber on Spitfire's new Symphonic Strings.

I, for one, like the L&S Chamber Strings and think it's a worthy contender in the "dry" Chamber String space.
My two cents "off topic"  Glad to see you participate.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Nov 29, 2016)

AllanH said:


> I think it would make a lot of sense for you to start a new thread "The Robber L&S Chamber Strings"



not much sense, there's a lot of "The Robber" takes using other libraries on this post.

SSS, SCS, Albion+SCS, CSS, Cinestrings, VSL SE, VSL Dimension, VSL Orchestral Strings, Berlin, KH Diamond, EW HS, Session Strings Pro.


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## gpax (Nov 29, 2016)

Light and Sound said:


> My apologies if this is how it comes across, we simply saw a request for an example and wanted to provide - we'll be sure to stay out of the conversation to not appear invasive or sway the conversation in any specific direction.


My apology. I meant no offense, particularly as you offered another compelling mockup to consider. If there is no problem here, I certainly don't wish to create one.


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## gpax (Nov 29, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> It didn't come across that way.
> 
> Some people are just over defensive.


Absolutely no harm asking for disclosure and clarification.


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## timestudios (Sep 18, 2018)

Christof said:


> I agree, for this piece, yes.
> I am starting a piece using SSS performance legato patches now, they sound wonderful.


Hi Christof. I really enjoyed 'The Robber' What a wonderful composition! I'd love to hear your composition with Spitfire's performance legato patches. Did you upload it to soundcloud? Thanks. Roland.


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## HBen (Sep 18, 2018)

Can anyone share .midi file and score file again? All links are broken. Thanks.


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## Christof (Sep 18, 2018)

HBen said:


> Can anyone share .midi file and score file again? All links are broken. Thanks.


Sorry, I cleaned up my dropbox and trashed it!
Here it is again:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyffpxs6cahzzu1/the robber_PDF_MIDI.zip?dl=0


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## HBen (Sep 19, 2018)

Christof said:


> Sorry, I cleaned up my dropbox and trashed it!
> Here it is again:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyffpxs6cahzzu1/the robber_PDF_MIDI.zip?dl=0



Wonderful, I am really appreciate that. Thank you so much!


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## novaburst (Sep 19, 2018)

SSS has a great stereo field makes the sound very appealing to me, that may or may not have something to do with the said editing, 

I was not looking for realism but was looking for a sound, blindfolded I think I would choose SSS, they just sound more full and complete. 

But must say I did not like the time machine version. 

CSS I have listened to many mock ups created with CSS while it may have got away with it before, but when compared to SSS the CSS sounds like it needs more players,

But in saying that there ha e been some very beautiful mock ups created with CSS. 

Listen guys I know you love CSS and this comment is not a slam it's an opinion.

Perhaps if they were doubled up in some places it may ha e given the sound I wanted to hear. 

Also I think pieces can be written for the characteristics of how some libraries sound that that can go a long way too.


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## robgb (Mar 9, 2020)

tack said:


> I got excited myself when I saw the reverb slider in Albion One. It wouldn't be hard to extract the impulse response from the patch -- imagine having the sound of Air Lyndhurst on all my dry instruments? But I remembered that Air Studios forbids impulse response measurements of the hall, or at least publicly sharing them, so I figured it was a long shot. I did email Spitfire support and they confirmed that, indeed, the IR is not from The Hall.


Saw this old post and it made me wonder. What if you were to extract a percussion hit in Albion One with the Air Lyndhurst tail on it and use that as an IR. Not absolutely sure it would work, but...


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## constaneum (Mar 9, 2020)

novaburst said:


> SSS has a great stereo field makes the sound very appealing to me, that may or may not have something to do with the said editing,
> 
> I was not looking for realism but was looking for a sound, blindfolded I think I would choose SSS, they just sound more full and complete.
> 
> ...



if i'm not mistaken, CSS and SSS have different number of players.


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## Vik (Mar 10, 2020)

constaneum said:


> if i'm not mistaken, CSS and SSS have different number of players.


Yes:




__





String libraries section sizes


I believe that I saw a list somewhere, probably on this site, over a lot of string libraries and the number of players in each of their sections, but can't find it. Does anyone know where I can find such a list? If not, maybe we could turn this thread into such a list - if manufacturers and/or...




vi-control.net





Spitfire Symphonic Strings / Mural (SSS) 16/14/12/10/8, 101.1GB
Cinematic Studio Strings (CSS, 35 [+4] players) 10/7/7/6/5 [3 mic positions], 34.5GB


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