# The two most OVER rated things in this industry are........



## Guy Bacos (Feb 18, 2010)

Yep, I stole the idea, but Stravisnky said it's cool to steal.


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## Justus (Feb 18, 2010)

Hehe, had the same idea, Guy!!!


OK, here we go:

Software, especially sample libs


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 18, 2010)

Zim and mer :wink:


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 18, 2010)

Epic music based too much on epic drums and choir.


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## mf (Feb 18, 2010)

samples and libraries


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## kid-surf (Feb 18, 2010)

fake tits...


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## mf (Feb 18, 2010)

cgi and rockandrollchestra


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## RiffWraith (Feb 18, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Fri Feb 19 said:


> Yep, I stole the idea, but Stravisnky said it's cool to steal.



Yup - "Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal." I guess he was calling himself a great artist. =o


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## RiffWraith (Feb 18, 2010)

*The two most OVER rated things in this industry are*

Guy Bacos and vi-control.net. :| 

~o) 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 18, 2010)

:D No, I'm the lesser artist who steals.


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## JJP (Feb 18, 2010)

The latest string sample library... whatever it is this month

and

8 piece french horn sections


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## mf (Feb 18, 2010)

titanics and avatars


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## IvanP (Feb 18, 2010)

46 French Horns played as a block in a mockup with a small chamber reverb applied.


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## JJP (Feb 18, 2010)

IvanP @ Thu Feb 18 said:


> 46 French Horns played as a block in a mockup with a small chamber reverb applied.


 :lol: Nice! o-[][]-o


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## _taylor (Feb 19, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Fri Feb 19 said:


> In & Out Burger!



and now I'm hungry :cry: 


Anyone had Dicks Drive In, here in Seattle? Now that is the gooods. I want a special, a cheeseburger and fries... that will be $4.95 thank you.


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## john rodriguez (Feb 19, 2010)

Thomas_J @ Thu Feb 18 said:


> In & Out Burger!



Hear hear, I thought I was the only one. Now Fatburger on the other hand...


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## germancomponist (Feb 19, 2010)

Profit & the mass of samples in a library. (GigaBite)


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## Jaap (Feb 19, 2010)

1: D minor
2: 120bpm


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## Studio E (Feb 19, 2010)

Guy Bacos @ Thu Feb 18 said:


> Epic music based too much on epic drums and choir.



Yeah, but if you would have said that over an SD2 loop with lots of oohs and aahs you would sound SOOO bad-ass!


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## _taylor (Feb 19, 2010)

Horn repetitions and Flute runs.


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## Waywyn (Feb 19, 2010)

People who actually think that music is only good music when it is appealing to composers and musicians!!!

EDIT: Oh yes ... right ... two things.

..... yes, the other one is people who think that percussion and synth programming is soooo much easier than arranging and writing for orchestra.


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## mf (Feb 19, 2010)

Music is good for you when you like it, regardless of who else likes it.

(As an aside, calling people "freaks" because of your misunderstanding of their opinion, that hardly adds weight to your different opinion, and also hardly makes you superior to them.)

"Percussion and synth programming" and "arranging and writing for orchestra" can be easy, hard, and everything in between. The question is, why should the listener care about easy/hard?


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## Waywyn (Feb 19, 2010)

Just as a little add.

Only because this is a forum of freedom speech, it doesn't mean that it is open to degrade people, styles of music or certain composers.

To me this is kindergarden. "Hey, you guys, here you can play, noone tells you to come in for lunch ... " ... but they just start to beat off the other kids :/


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## lux (Feb 19, 2010)

I think Techno, House or Trance are a step above trailer music, sorry.

I think "you" have to face it, Alex: the only reason people play trailer stuff is that it pays upfront and producers seem (seemed?) to have money at hands for this kind of stuff. Of course things are getting harder every day and sooner or later we'll probably never hear anymore about "that" trailer music.

Funny thing is that 80% of the sample developer will have to find some destination for the traileresque samples theyre covering the market with.

We still hear house music and people recognize and can sing house or techno tunes after almost more than twenty years. There should be a reason...


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## _taylor (Feb 19, 2010)

Waywyn @ Fri Feb 19 said:


> don't get me wrong about using the word freaks, I changed it by the way, .... but I am just fed up and slightly pissed with all those - in a way - negative statements about trailer music, huge percussions, loud choirs, pads and only major/minor, simple horn melodies etc.
> 
> 
> I mean those people should face it: ITS A [email protected]#kin STYLE! ... and if you don't like it, then DO NOT listen to it. If you don't like Techno or House, you don't listen to it. If you don't like rock, you don't listen to it.
> ...




Nicely put, I agree 100%

It does get rather tiresome to read continual bashing about this or that... If you don't like something why give it that much attention?



@ Lux, There is a decent size following for trailer music. Not just composers and producers but actual fans that enjoy it and seek out new music and talk about it with great passion. 

You'd be surprised at how many trailer composers are moving to releasing their stuff to the public because the demand for it from their fans is increasing daily.


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## lux (Feb 19, 2010)

_taylor @ Fri Feb 19 said:


> @ Lux, There is a decent size following for trailer music. Not just composers and producers but actual fans that enjoy it and seek out new music and talk about it with great passion.
> 
> You'd be surprised at how many trailer composers are moving to releasing their stuff to the public because the demand for it from their fans is increasing daily.



well, i kinda tend to consider this as good news as its supposed to help trailer's music quality getting better. In general great passion is a well seen here.

i see some obstacle in the fact that mostly trailer music is considered as sound design and follows strict and suffocating rules.

Perhaps trailers music will earn the right praise and will see a general improvement once it will be no more the golden egg chicken of a poor market.


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## EnTaroAdun (Feb 19, 2010)

Most overrated:
1. expensive high end reverb gear
2. orchestral music




Waywyn @ 2010-02-19 said:


> don't get me wrong about using the word freaks, I changed it by the way, .... but I am just fed up and slightly pissed with all those - in a way - negative statements about trailer music, huge percussions, loud choirs, pads and only major/minor, simple horn melodies etc.
> 
> 
> I mean those people should face it: ITS A FUCKIN STYLE!


+1
And I'd like to add, that there are good and bad pieces with "huge percussions, loud choirs, pads and only major/minor, simple horn melodies etc." as well as in most/all (pick, what you want) other styles of music.


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## mjc (Feb 19, 2010)

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Let's keep it that way :D


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## _taylor (Feb 19, 2010)

lux @ Fri Feb 19 said:


> _taylor @ Fri Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > @ Lux, There is a decent size following for trailer music. Not just composers and producers but actual fans that enjoy it and seek out new music and talk about it with great passion.
> ...




Fair enough. 

But, lack of quality? I have to disagree. There are some very high quality tunes happening with in the trailer industry. Epic score, Two steps, Brand X, QFactory.. the list goes on. You just have to dig deeper than the average forum posters music. 

As for the repeated reference to money, you do get paid, yes, IF you write stuff people use, but I highly doubt 95% of the composers do it for this reason alone. 

For me it's a bug, a virus.. I don't write the big epic choir stuff, but I do love to write for drums and straight sound design. It has nothing to do with money. It has to do with passion and enjoyment it doing it. The same reason we all write music, I would hope.


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## lux (Feb 19, 2010)

oh well i didnt mention lack of quality, mostly because quality is such a relative concept. I have friends who make nice stuff for trailers and i have fun givin them a listen and a feedback when i can.

Probably its the big choir stuff that bothers me much, as it contributed to line a real cliche. I love writing for drums and percussions as well, doin dance music and whatever doesnt fit the label for sophisticated music. 

About the money, i'm afraid i rest my case, without the nature of the money involved we would have no trailer music out there as we have today. I'm really convinced about that.


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## lux (Feb 19, 2010)

ajcmuso @ Fri Feb 19 said:


> For the record:
> 
> "V.I. Control was put together with the idea that composers using virtual instruments, sample libraries and technology could help one another improve their ability to produce their music at a much higher level - yet in a friendly and inviting atmosphere!"
> 
> Let's keep it that way :D



no record needed. Were just discussing. Alex isnt exactly a pussy when discussing stuff so i'm sure he's getting the right sake of it out of this discussion :wink:


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## mjc (Feb 19, 2010)

lux @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> ajcmuso @ Fri Feb 19 said:
> 
> 
> > For the record:
> ...



All good Luca  I wasn't actually referring to you and Alex...that's obviously a civil discussion :wink: ...it was more towards some of the degrading and bashing comments I see some people post.


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## Hannes_F (Feb 19, 2010)

Waywyn @ Fri Feb 19 said:


> ... I am just fed up and slightly pissed with all those - in a way - negative statements about trailer music, huge percussions, loud choirs, pads and only major/minor, simple horn melodies etc.



Alex, I think it is safe to say that if people are generally ranting about the trailer music genre, especially in this forum, they never mean _your _trailers, of course!


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

@Hannes: obviously 


@Luca:HAHHAHHA Luca, you killed me!!  I was laughing out loud!!
You are right I am not a pussy when it comes to discussions ... I know you guys for such a long time now!


Okay, generally I think lots of people have problems with music.
They hear a string section and a horn somewhere and suddenly they go:

"Holy moly, what did that guy do to the orchestra. Stravinsky would turn around in his grave, Bach would personally come down from heaven and rip your a** ...."

But then I am like: What does this style has to do with classical or orchestral music (in that sense) only because the composer used orchestral instruments?


It is the same with movies. Disregarding if a movie was good or not, lots of people don't have problems with a sorcerer or an Orc, Elf appearing in Lord of the Rings, but as soon as you put a magical or fable being into a real world setting, everybody is running crazy, about how unreal that is.


Besides that, concerning trailer music and as Ajcmuso already mentioned it.
I think about people like Troels, Gabe S., TJ, Nick Phoenix, Lex, just to name a few ... basically I could go on and find like 10 or 20 more names. Someone seriusly can't say that those guys can't do music or better: That their trailer stuff is NO music!?

Again, I really appreciate that people don't like a certain style of music and I am glad there is taste, but it is definitely wrong to confuse taste with degrading a cettain style of music.

To those people who are degrading and bashing around - just to name an example: huge percussion walls - just take a little while, sit down and arrange/construct/write one and present it here. I would say some of you would do great, while the most of these bashers would desperately fail!

They just stuck in their little orchestra world, but in the end if I think about it, it's okay with me: More space for guys who like to experiment!


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## lux (Feb 20, 2010)

you pussy!!!! :mrgreen: 

i see what you mean. And, speaking in general, i think bashing trailer music as a whole is no less cliched. I've given this impression probably but its not really. I happen to hear killer rythmic stuff from friends which play for trailers and quite like it. As everything in the world there is good and bad trailer music. 

At the same time i think pointing out whats critical about trailer music probably helps hearing good stuff for the future. 

Its difficult to point out examples and build a discussion as probably i would bash stuff which has been perhaps created and sold by members here, and i would be sorry for that. 

I'll just mention a rule. I tend to dislike personally stuff which has been created with the clear intent to trick "one" guy. I think probably is the result of a tired musician which just decides to trick the client with what he will accept as good, even if its..erh..not that good. Of course this is not only peculiar to trailer music.

Symptoms are:

- Hello! Earthquake.
- Pads rise in the background. The first half has random isolated orchestral hits which make probably no sense. Its like Run DMC meets Mortal Kombat.
- Then the choir starts. Latin. Why latin? Why?
- Its time for percussion bed. Random and unexplicable Hip Hop orchestral hits are back again...why?
- Its time for closing. Earthquake. End title.

Official definition for that is "it tells a story"

Just having fun of course, no hatery :D 
Luca


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

lux @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> you pussy!!!! :mrgreen:
> 
> i see what you mean. And, speaking in general, i think bashing trailer music as a whole is no less cliched. I've given this impression probably but its not really. I happen to hear killer rythmic stuff from friends which play for trailers and quite like it. As everything in the world there is good and bad trailer music.
> 
> ...



I hear ya man!
To set that right, I would understand this whole discussion if it would be about guys using warezed stuff and loops for almost everything and pretending they are pro composers ... and I totally get your point about people trying to trick the customer.

Regarding your construction/setup plan for trailer music you can relate that to every music style (although I definitely keep in mind that those points you mentioned are exactly those points who use people to trick the customers) ... but think about the following for just the sake of contruction/arranging:

Jazz: Why always 7th chords, why always altered scales? Why always noodling solos?

Techno: Why always 10 min tracks which sound the same for 8 mins. Why always 8th, then 16th then 32th bassdrum risers. Why 4/4 bassdrum. Why always Virus and synth

Pop: Why always 3:30 lenght of track?!  ... Why always major, minor? Why always 3 chords only. Why always Intro, Vers, Chorus, Vers, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus, Chorus, Outro?

Classical music: Why always stupid compostion names such as:
"Duet in Ebmaj for Trombone and Oboe, but you could also call it trio since we have a French Horn playing a little melody in there" 

Blues: Why always or most of the time solo in Min Pentatonic, why always I, IV, V. Why always vocals which doesn't really rhyme

Rock, Why always fifth chords? Why always screaming singers, Why always snares with 5seconds reverb tail?






... and now lemme breakdown your poiints made about trailer music constructions:

- Hello! Earthquake.

Hello first shock scene, title of the movie being displayed, first scene etc.
Hello I want attention please watch me so you might buy a ticket for the upcoming movie!!!!

- Pads rise in the background. The first half has random isolated orchestral hits which make probably no sense. Its like Run DMC meets Mortal Kombat.

Look to the edits and cut of the scenes. Still senseless? 

- Then the choir starts. Latin. Why latin? Why?
Because latin is a dead language and you couldn't assign it to a topic or anything.
It stays neutral. The lyrics doesn't mean a thing mostly - it's all about the might hopefully catches you


- Its time for percussion bed. Random and unexplicable Hip Hop orchestral hits are back again...why?

To support the scenes, just look at the pictures. Tension building as the trailer trying to reach the point you definitely want to see the movie

- Its time for closing. Earthquake. End title.

You answered your own point. Now I (hopefully) know what that movie is about, so I better go and buy a ticket  .. of course, I have in mind that there are damn good trailers, but showing all the best scenes of the movie  .. also as there are bad trailers.


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

PS:

Sex. Why always in, out, in, out, in, out, in, out, in, out! How boring or ... no? Because it works for like a few hundred thousand years now and it still makes people happy!!! :D


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## re-peat (Feb 20, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Jazz: Why always 7th chords, why always altered scales? Why always noodling solos?
> 
> Techno: Why always 10 min tracks which sound the same for 8 mins. Why always 8th, then 16th then 32th bassdrum risers. Why 4/4 bassdrum. Why always Virus and synth
> 
> ...



No wonder trailer music is often as ghastly as it is, if the above is any indication of the musical illiteracy which characterizes its practitioners. 
Alex, even if phrased with sarcasm, your post is embarassing.

_


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

re-peat @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Jazz: Why always 7th chords, why always altered scales? Why always noodling solos?
> ...



re-peat: Sorry, but I am not sure if I understand ... or maybe you didn't get my point.

I was just trying to find some things which you can hear/see in every of those mentioned styles.

Are there no hits and bangs and choir rises in trailer music, no?
Are there no 4/4 bassdrums in techno. Is there no I, IV, V going on in Blues all the time, no? I would say 100% sure, YES!

This isn't ment to degrading all kinds of music styles or, let's say reduce it to a minimum (such as, if I would have just one sentence to descibe a certain style).

I studied Blues, Pop, Rock, Jazz, Funk etc. ... having private lessons in orchestration etc. ... so I have highest respect to all those styles.

I was just answering Luca's post in terms of Why always this and that in trailer music.


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## re-peat (Feb 20, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> (...) ... or maybe you didn't get my point.(...)


I don't think we'll ever get each other's point, Alex. The way you write about music is almost physically repulsive to me and I have no doubt that most of what I write (or have written) must meet with a similar complete lack of understanding at your end. Nevermind. Doesn't matter. You just carry on with having sex the in-out-in-out way. How fortunate for you that there are people who derive pleasure from that.

_


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

re-peat @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) ... or maybe you didn't get my point.(...)
> ...



Oh please, you are better than this ... !!!

Alan Holdsworth, a jazz fusion guitar player is my biggest hero. I had lessons with Frank Gambale. I definitely DIG improvising solos, fusion and jazz and lettin out your most inner feelings through a solo to a crowd of people!
I simply used to say noodling solos as people say trailer stuff is no music at all.

I tip my hat for Robert Johnson, one of my greatest influences in Blues.
His music sometimes is stronger and more emotional than the biggest natural orchestra ever would be!

I have deepest respect for sounddesigners and certain techno producers. It's more the sound and hookline thing that having complex writing. I dig that too.

The list goes on and on throughout every style of music from the earliest drum rhythms to the most modern style of electro and crossover .... and I definitely think you know what I am trying to say, but I have more a feeling of, you do NOT want to.

You know the worst thing is, you don't EVEN TRY to come along.
You just stroke your little line upon my name in the blacklist and all is good again. But I am ok with it too.


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## lux (Feb 20, 2010)

lol,

when i first read the word "Jazz" in your post Alex, i already knew you would have had issues with re-peat. He's kind of the jazz patrol here. Sometimes i intentionally mispell the word in the hope of not ticking his view...

"Wow, it sounds like Mazz"..

"man, those chords are Vazzy"...

in general i would say:







About the matter, 

i tend to disagree with your post as well. While many musical genres use some formulas here and there, theyre rich, quite rich. I see no comparison.

About the game, obviously i was being kind of a smartass and having some fun. But still, is placing an eightish orchestra hit on every sync in the trailer is something that worths taking into consideration? I mean, my daughter would probably find a solution thats more original. And my daughter is four. 

Luca


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

Luca, again I understand what you are trying to say.

But to be honest, you really wanna say that e.g. "Nemesis" of TJ is NOT rich?
... or that "Unstoppable" by E.S. Posthumus is no music only because it may have resulted in some musicians breaking bones? 

I mean we all know there is sound and composition, sometimes one takes over, but generally it is a perfect symbiosis. Without sound, the notes on the paper look lonely. The same as with sound which doesn't have anything to say without the theoretical information.

I also dig your opinion about placing an orchestra hit or a big boom on every bar. Yes, there might be a more elegant way, but the question would be. Do those more elegant solutions deliver the basic message better?

And that's exactly were my comparisons jumped in about other styles. Isn't there a more elegant way than to do simple 4/4 bassdrum beat and syncopated hihats in Techno? Aren't there more elegant ways to create a really amazing groove? YES, there are, everybody here would agree ... but is it always the best solution to look for the most brilliant and sophisticated one?


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## lux (Feb 20, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> But to be honest, you really wanna say that e.g. "Nemesis" of TJ is NOT rich?
> ... or that "Unstoppable" by E.S. Posthumus is no music only because it may have resulted in some musicians breaking bones?



while i havent heard pieces by One step, i'm sure its pretty neat stuff. Of course i'm referring to trailer music that doesnt deliver in any rich form, and there's alot out there.



> I also dig your opinion about placing an orchestra hit or a big boom on every bar. Yes, there might be a more elegant way, but the question would be. Do those more elegant solutions deliver the basic message better?



well, the matter on the basic message is disputable. I would say that a kick in the balls would deliver the basic message even better than those hits imho.



> And that's exactly were my comparisons jumped in about other styles. Isn't there a more elegant way than to do simple 4/4 bassdrum beat and syncopated hihats in Techno? Aren't there more elegant ways to create a really amazing groove? YES, there are, everybody here would agree ... but is it always the best solution to look for the most brilliant and sophisticated one?



probably the middle way sounds good enough in my vision.


btw, the game was taken out of a trailer i've heard yesterday on tv related to a movie actually out there. i will of course not mention it, for reasons i stated above. Perhaps just choco could recognize it.


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

"while i havent heard pieces by One step, i'm sure its pretty neat stuff. Of course i'm referring to trailer music that doesnt deliver in any rich form, and there's alot out there."

1000% agree with you.
There is a lots if not tons of crap out there. But you have to also admit that you find crap in about every other style of music.

"well, the matter on the basic message is disputable. I would say that a kick in the balls would deliver the basic message even better than those hits imho."

LOL

"probably the middle way sounds good enough in my vision. "

Right, I also agree, ... but compare that simple 4/4 bassdrum to paint a wall of a house. Sometimes white does do it, no? 

I know I am terrible with comparisons. You can slap me once we will meet in analog! :D


"btw, the game was taken out of a trailer i've heard yesterday on tv related to a movie actually out there. i will of course not mention it, for reasons i stated above. Perhaps just choco could recognize it."

I also understand, but you also have to admit that you simply can't refer by one trailer to generally all trailer music! 
This is like, my neighbour drives like shit with his new Porsche, so all Porsche drivers do too!

Okay, slap me twice!


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## lux (Feb 20, 2010)

consider yourself slapped twice


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## germancomponist (Feb 20, 2010)

I think I get it what Alex is saying. And yes I agree, a good sound design is also a composition as a good painted picture is. 

The problem comes when a trailer, produced with hundrets of big booms, orchestra hits a.s.o. , is advertisting for example for a love story. There for sure is something wrong. :-D


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

lux @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> consider yourself slapped twice


 o-[][]-o


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

germancomponist @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> I think I get it what Alex is saying. And yes I agree, a good sound design is also a composition as a good painted picture is.
> 
> The problem comes when a trailer, produced with hundrets of big booms, orchestra hits a.s.o. , is advertisting for example for a love story. There for sure is something wrong. :-D



Pardon me, but almost every morning I am watching at least three trailers as other people would read their newspapers, .. but the scenario you just described, Gunther, sounds kinda off. At least I NEVER have experienced something like this.

Got an example? .. and even if it would have been happened it surely wouldn't be the composers fault, don't you think?


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## mf (Feb 20, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> They just stuck in their little orchestra world, but in the end if I think about it, it's okay with me: More space for guys who like to experiment!


I begin to understand your enthusiasm for trailer music, the uncharted world inviting the visionary composer to explore - to baldly go where no one has gone before.

Alex, you seem to value honesty, so just admit you're in this genre for these three reasons: you like it, you can do it, and it pays. The rest of the talking and rationalizing is just blowing smoke. It goes without saying that each and every musical genre must make use of clichés, to some extent - otherwise we wouldn't be able to differentiate them, or even to like them. The problem with trailer music is that there is nothing there BEYOND the cliché. It's all cliché. All sauce, no meat. What's important, and the only reason for its existence is: it pays.

This is a funny industry, based on illusion and delusion. But let's not delude ourselves. Some obscenely well paid actors can't act, some obscenely well paid singers can't sing, and some obscenely well paid composers can't compose. Let's just be honest about that and move on making some money. And music. Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting, my friend.

Peace, love, and dough


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## lux (Feb 20, 2010)

on a serious side i have to say that i admire Alex's entuhusiasm in approaching the genre. I think this mentality can give a spin to the genre and letting us hear nice stuff in the next future.


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## germancomponist (Feb 20, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> germancomponist @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > I think I get it what Alex is saying. And yes I agree, a good sound design is also a composition as a good painted picture is.
> ...



Oops, you didn`t get my metapher, Alex. 

What I mean is that very often there are too much big booms, hits as perhaps needed. And I also know that you are right when you say that very often it is not the composers fault. 
And please don`t get me wrong, I like well produced trailers very much! 

0oD


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

mf @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > They just stuck in their little orchestra world, but in the end if I think about it, it's okay with me: More space for guys who like to experiment!
> ...



Hey man,

to be honest until you see money in the trailer world takes a looooong while, especially when you just have started.

Besides that, yes, I enjoy doing trailer music, I simply enjoy big boom, bang sometimes! 

.. but I enjoy this as the same as I enjoy working on rock/pop stuff, ethno style, pure percussions, arranging other peoples music, writing stuff for orchestra which can be action, romantic, sad, whatever .... ,writing interactive game music, playing blues, playing shredding metal solos, singing, playing a bit of Duduk, playing live, fiddling around with compressors, guitar amps, EQ's, doing little tutorials etc.

... in the end, to me it's AAAALL music or music related and I simply try to do the best I can and hope I will never stop learning! 


I don't care if there is a white painted wall or a picture which has been painted for like years by several artists. It only depends if one likes it and if it makes sense to someone - if it works.
Not all the time something has to be GENIUS, sometimes it is just perfect to be USEFUL and EFFECTIVE.

If something doesn't make sense to someone then it is surely out of interest or a matter of taste ... but it is NOT bad, retarded or garbage only because someone may not like it.

We are composers, we have to earn money with our feelings. We have to open our hearts and heads and pour it to the public. If someone doesn't like our music we have to get over it and carry on and sometimes it is hard since basically we do some kind of art ... but sometimes simpy have to fulfill some clients wish - otherwise you won't get paid.

However, of course I am aware that there is a lot of crap out there, but not just in trailer music, but every style of music .. or better, in EVERYTHING in life.


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## re-peat (Feb 20, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> (...)We have to open our hearts and heads and pour it to the public.(...)


Good thing man has invented umbrellas.


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

Gunther, it's kinda funny how you constantly change your mind!


From another thread,



germancomponist @ Mon Feb 15 said:


> When it comes to trailers, oh yeah, noone would call it music.



From this thread,



germancomponist @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> And please don`t get me wrong, I like well produced trailers very much!


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

re-peat @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > (...)We have to open our hearts and heads and pour it to the public.(...)
> ...



So true, the same goes for nicknames to hide behind!


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## germancomponist (Feb 20, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Gunther, it's kinda funny how you constantly change your mind!
> 
> 
> From another thread,
> ...



I can`t follow you, Alex. I never changed my mind about trailers. 

Are trailers music? Mostly no, or? 

But this means not that trailers can`t be good, yes, no?


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## lux (Feb 20, 2010)

as usual the jazz police raised the bar of a normal discussion leading to a probable mess. 

and people blame choco...


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 20, 2010)

I wouldn't mind re-approaching what Alex was trying to say. He's just saying there are simliar elements in every style of music that people can detect, like trailer music. However, it's way more detailed.

Comment Jazz Elements: heavy chord structure (7ths, 9ths, 11ths), swing/syncopated rhythms, improvised solos based on the progression using heavy theory (not really noodling, that could be an insult). Examples most would reference: Miles Davis, Coltrane, Monk, etc

Less common: Jazz also falls into the latin, fusion, big band 30s/40s, modern big band, Dixieland band, etc. styles.

Techno: First of all the parent genre of this style of music is Electronic. Unfortunately electronic music has a TON of genres. Some separate simply due to BPM only. When Techno is reference people assume it's the parent genre, but it's not. It's a sub-genre with several MORE sub genre's below it. 

Electronic music goes everywhere. It's not just 4 kicks. Techno and everything below it has that in common though. Really... electronic music is pretty wide and confusing. The main element in electronic music is that it's electronic and somewhat repetitive.

Blues: Common blues songs you hear are damn near the same thing. But that's because the focus is the lyrics and improvisation. I'm talking more commercial blues that has the same sound. Jazz blues however, is a different story. They are very different sounds.

Rock: When I see the word "Rock" is kind of makes me wonder what we're talking about. Rock has spanned over so many different styles in the past. Oldies Rock, Country Rock, Classic rock, Metal, Punk Rock, etc. What do they have in common? Electric Guitars is the only thing I can think of honestly. But really it's more like if you hear it, you just KNOW it's rock.

Pop: Pop is a tricky one, mainly because it's almost NOT a genre. Pop can be so many things because it's popular. You have tons of elements in pop. Electro, House, Hip-hop, Jazz (in the 80s/90s), folk, etc. Tracks are always under 4 minutes due to radio play, and they always have to hit hard to make people dance. Pop isn't as easy as people like to say it is.

Oh hell I'm sure there's more lol


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## mf (Feb 20, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Gunther, it's kinda funny how you constantly change your mind!
> 
> From another thread,
> 
> ...


You may want to observe the difference between 
"I wouldn't call trailer-scores: music"
and
"I like well produced trailers"

One is a _semantic statement_ referring to a genre ("I wouldn't put trailer-scores in the music category"), and the other is an _aesthetic judgment_ on the production quality ("I like trailers when they are well produced"). I don't see any contradiction between them. Something unmusical can be well produced. When something is well produced, that doesn't make it: music.


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

@Nathan: Yes, thanks and that's what I wanted to say in general.

Obviously I was just trying to - on purpose of course - bash down those styles and reduce them to a nasty minimum as it has been done with trailer music  But well, some people see the combination of "Jazz" and "noodling" and instantly start ramblin' ... kind of blind about what the initial purpose was. Anyway, not my problem.


@Gunther and mf:
I have seen it that way. On one thread you mention that trailers are not music. Of course they are not music, they are trailers, but containing music. So I initially thought you don't like trailer music.

On the other side you said you like well produced trailers. Therefore I also thought you like trailer music ... you have to admit, a bit irritating to read


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## mf (Feb 20, 2010)

Alex, you are still mistaking one thing for the other. It's really simple:
A - "I wouldn't call sound design: music."
B - "I like well produced sound design."

Do you see any contradiction between A and B?


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 20, 2010)

mf @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Alex, you are still mistaking one thing for the other. It's really simple:
> A - "I wouldn't call sound design: music."
> B - "I like well produced sound design."
> 
> Do you see any contradiction between A and B?



No.


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## Waywyn (Feb 20, 2010)

mf @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Alex, you are still mistaking one thing for the other. It's really simple:
> A - "I wouldn't call sound design: music."
> B - "I like well produced sound design."
> 
> Do you see any contradiction between A and B?



Same here, no.

Maybe I have to rephrase my last post. I HAD the impression that Gunther was talking about the music in trailers, in both cases. Hope that clears it. Sorry for the confusion


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## robh (Feb 20, 2010)

Michael Jackson and Madonna.

Rob


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## spectrum (Feb 20, 2010)

robh @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Michael Jackson and Madonna.
> 
> Rob


Been lucky enough to work with both. I'd wholeheartedly agree on the lady, but don't agree at all on MJ. 

Definitely one of the most incredible musicians I've ever worked with....he really was a genius by any measure.


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## bryla (Feb 20, 2010)

I envy you Eric!


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## mjc (Feb 20, 2010)

re-peat @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) ... or maybe you didn't get my point.(...)
> ...



Seriously man, take it easy...that's really degrading. Not cool at all.

Why is it that when people make valid points about their arguments, people who don't agree start making condescending comments?

Like Luca said, this is a normal discussion leading to a probable mess...


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## Waywyn (Feb 21, 2010)

ajcmuso @ Sun Feb 21 said:


> re-peat @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> ...



Yeh you are right! I should do better!


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## germancomponist (Feb 21, 2010)

mf @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Gunther, it's kinda funny how you constantly change your mind!
> ...



Thank you, mf!

This is exactly what I meant. 

o-[][]-o


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## NYC Composer (Feb 21, 2010)

Apparently, one of the most overrated things in the industry is-making a living in it. I sure do envy all y'all artistes, because it was the dross I did in my career that always paid my rent, not the art. The art barely paid at all. I had commissions from world renowned choreographers that wouldn't have fed a mouse, much less a family. How fortunate that some of us have been able to be true to our art. One wonders if they have had secondary sources of income, family money, trust funds? Or perhaps they live in Socialist countries that support the arts a bit better than the U.S. does.

In any case, what's important in being an artiste is to sneer at and denigrate anyone who does not live up to our own standards of artistry as they sell their souls for the filthy lucre. Why, in the course of doing commercials over many years, it's amazing how many top jazz artists deigned to play my dross-filled sessions. Hmm. Maybe they weren't real artists after all.

On further reflection, I'm sure they were- because when they left the union after picking up the checks, I'm sure they laughed and sneered at the gigs they did to support themselves. Hating doing the stuff kept their integrity intact. Alex enjoying what he does, well, there you go. NOT an artist.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 21, 2010)

I have a new friend who worked for a few years in LA doing trailers. I will ask him how much of the blame for silly trailer music (silly in that it sounds like the same thing from one to the other to the next) should go to composers. I've a feeling it's all about the studios laying down the law every time. Oh, and while we're on the subject, does anyone know who are behind the very successful trailer soundtrack entity named X-Ray Dog? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Ray_Dog


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## mf (Feb 21, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Sun Feb 21 said:


> Hating doing the stuff kept their integrity intact. X enjoying what he does, well, there you go. NOT an artist.


Some may argue that when doing something out of love one gets very close to art, while doing it while hating it one gets very close to prostitution.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 21, 2010)

Some might argue there are all many levels of musical careers, styles, and enjoyment levels, and that decent people should have respect for all, or at least keep their snide comments to themselves..

Nikolas, I don't think you understood the irony of my post. It was actually an argument _for _civility, and was a suggestion that some people on this forum who insist on a LACK of civility should grow the heck up.


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## kid-surf (Feb 21, 2010)

> Apparently, one of the most overrated things in the industry is-making a living in it.



Agreed...

Re-Peat... Let me remind you that film/tv composing ain't about the composers' appraisal of that which is of the utmost quality, conversely, it is about a collaboration to best serve the material one is scoring TO.

If you are fortunate enough to not have to obey anyone but yourself, great, you are free to be as esoteric in your 'art' as you so choose. Furthermore, you are free to then declare the *value* your music possesses, as it pertains only to your inherent perception of it. 

...Although...

THE most sophisticated aspect to fulfill in the creation of art is not surpassing the academic threshold but instead: thoroughly pleasing one's own sensibilities while simultaneously pleasing the sensibilities of the general public to the point at which they have determined the *value* of one's art with their pocketbooks...and to the degree that one may continue creating one's art, same as before, as one sees fit.

Very few throughout history have successfully accomplished this *most* monumental creative feat.

To specifics: I'm trying to bring a tv ò—   Æï—   Æð—   Æñ—   Æò—   Æó—   Æô—   Æõ—   Æö—   Æ÷—   Æø—   Æù—   Æú—   Æû—   Æü—   Æý—   Æþ—   Æÿ—   Æ —   Æ—   Æ—   Æ—   Æ—   Æ—   Æ—   Æ—   Æ—   Æ	—   Æ
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## mf (Feb 21, 2010)

mf @ Sun Feb 21 said:


> NYC Composer @ Sun Feb 21 said:
> 
> 
> > Hating doing the stuff kept their integrity intact. X enjoying what he does, well, there you go. NOT an artist.
> ...





NYC Composer @ Sun Feb 21 said:


> Some might argue there are all many levels of musical careers, styles, and enjoyment levels, and that decent people should have respect for all


"Because he enjoys what he does, Alex is NOT an artist" doesn't sound to me like a very respectful remark. And not a very well-thought one either.

Besides, Z hating what he does for money doesn't make Z an artist, and Z publicly despising what X loves to do for money only speaks about Z's lack of decency, not X's.


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## kid-surf (Feb 21, 2010)

mf - NYC was employing --> SATIRE <--

Definition:	The use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc. Ridicule intended to expose truth.

Alex's own words to him were: "I think you pretty much nailed it!"


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## mf (Feb 21, 2010)

O I C
Sorry, NYC. I missed your meaning.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 21, 2010)

mf @ Sun Feb 21 said:


> O I C
> Sorry, NYC. I missed your meaning.



Yes, I'm afraid you did, mf. I thought the satire was pretty broad, but whatever, no problem.


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## re-peat (Feb 21, 2010)

Kid,

Disappointingly patronizing post, if I may say so. Do you seriously think I don’t know all that? And even before that, do you seriously believe for one second that I look down on people having the professional attitude to deliver what’s being asked and trying their best to — within the many limitations imposed by the job — come up with as good a product as they possibly can, even if it means sacrificing some (or a lot) of what their creative instincts would rather have them do?

I have to make a living too, you know, and that means doing precisely as described in the previous paragraph. So please, don’t come lecturing me about the eternal conflict between artistic integrity and professional compromise (and its many sour-tasting consequences). I know all about it, believe me, I don't need reminding. 

My irritation in this thread does NOT come from people obeying the often frustrating laws of professionalism. And I’m not talking about high art either. My irritation comes from people being narrow-minded in their outlook on music and trying to sell their unimaginative and essentialy economical activities as passionate artistry. And my annoyance was also seriously fuelled by people making, once again, pathetic attempts at pretending to know how my brain works but, as always, failing miserably.

Really, if there’s one thing which annoys me above anything else here, it’s those spineless, shadowy, frustrated, creepy, little people presuming to know what I am or how I think, what I do or don’t understand, what I cherish and what I dislike ... That is sooooo very tiresome, you have no idea. Especially when they also have the arrogance to take a moral stance based on a highly questionnable interpretations of decency and civility.

_


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## nikolas (Feb 21, 2010)

Larry: I had to delete four (4!!!) posts, and left my post as a warning. I've edited my post to show that it was not intended for you, and sorry about that! (Guy knows what I'm talking about)



re-peat @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> My irritation in this thread does NOT come from people obeying the often frustrating laws of professionalism. And I’m not talking about high art either. My irritation comes from people being narrow-minded in their outlook on music and trying to sell their unimaginative and essentialy economical activities as passionate artistry. And my annoyance was also seriously fuelled by people making, once again, pathetic attempts at pretending to know how my brain works but, as always, failing miserably.


Wait, wait just a second here...

Are you NOT right now pretending you know the passion of others? The level of imagination of others? and everything else in between? How on EARTH can you be sure of what's imaginative for one person? What's passionate for one person? How one person perceives the term 'art', etc? And while this may seem as some kind of political correct bullshit, it actually is NOT. It's just a simple POSSIBLE explanation of what you are receiving could also be what you're offering!

If I'm misunderstanding something, do let me know...


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## NYC Composer (Feb 22, 2010)

Yours is a blighted, and mercurial outlook, Piet, I've talked to you about it directly before, and am happy to do it directly again if you wish. I ask you time and time again-what's with the personal attacks and the denigration of others and others' points of view? I don' give a half a damn how your mind works. I think you ought to check yourself as to how your words work. I'm not interested in analyzing you. I just want you to take a more civil tone, as do many-but it's obvious that you don't care.

This will be our last round. I'm tired of your knowledgeable good guy/ suddenly malevolent bad guy routine .I'll be ignoring you from here out, knock yourself out, big fella. Cheers.


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## _taylor (Feb 22, 2010)




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## NYC Composer (Feb 22, 2010)

spectrum @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> robh @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael Jackson and Madonna.
> ...



I'm curious- in what ways? As a singer, writer, producer, arranger? Was he a player as well?

I always tended to admire the early singer/writer multi-instrumentalists- Stevie Wonder, Prince, Todd Rundgren


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## Waywyn (Feb 22, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Waywyn @ 21/2/2010 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course my absolute ultimate dream would be to get calls from producers/directors asking me to work on their next movie and totally let me do my thing ...
> ...



Haha, hey I am old too 
.... but you are right about hat. There is no "perfect" job, life or whatever.


@mf: Yes, basically I got NYCComposer right.
It's sometimes a thin line between artist, craftman and a whore.

I basically dig into every project as deep as I can, but of course on some project it's eyes closed, thinking of the money, of the landlords raised moaning finger and your daughters sweet little smile - and being able to feed her


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 22, 2010)

Not wanting to add fuel to the fire or defend Piet's anger, but I thought Alex's attempt at defining jazz in such a short sighted way was inviting criticism.
Personnally, after reading such a statement, I would conclude that the poster doesn't have a clue on what jazz is about.
And you can take the best trailer on the planet: it will never come close to the works of a composer such as Stravinsky. 
I don't really understand why someone would even attempt to compare the two...

Trailer music is the equivalent of an instant frozen meal, packaged and ready for immediate consumtion by the masses. Hit them hard and they will come. 

This may lead me to think that Alex may have an inferiority complex and needs to try to justify/defend writing for trailer music. No need to do so. We all have to survive and adapt to the demands of the market. If you can have fun while doing it, all the power to you. It's great! 
If what stylistically constitute trailer music happens to be something that you enjoy doing (big percussion, choir and metal guitars): great!
It is then a natural for you and it will bring you pleasure as well as financial rewards (in and out =o )

It is trying to elevate the medium to the classical or jazz genres that I have a problem with on many different levels.
For one, it is infinitely more complex to write a sound 30 minutes piece of orchestrated music than it is to produce a one minute cue...


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## germancomponist (Feb 22, 2010)

Ned Bouhalassa @ Sun Feb 21 said:


> .... Oh, and while we're on the subject, does anyone know who are behind the very successful trailer soundtrack entity named X-Ray Dog? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Ray_Dog



Ned,

if you are interested to know who is behind X.Ray-Dog, look at this german wapedia page:

http://wapedia.mobi/de/X-Ray_Dog

Cheers


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 22, 2010)

back to the original topic:

- talent

- talent


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## Guy Bacos (Feb 22, 2010)

re-peat @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Really, if there’s one thing which annoys me above anything else here, it’s those spineless, shadowy, frustrated, creepy, little people presuming to know what I am or how I think, what I do or don’t understand, what I cherish and what I dislike ... That is sooooo very tiresome, you have no idea. Especially when they also have the arrogance to take a moral stance based on a highly questionnable interpretations of decency and civility.
> 
> _



I definitely agree with that, and I sure get my share of that! 

Although my comment has nothing to do with this thread.


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## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

Not wanting to add fuel to the fire or defend any of Alex's comments, but...

the two most OVER rated things in this industry are........

jazz and classical music


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 22, 2010)

mf @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Not wanting to add fuel to the fire or defend Alex's attitude, but...
> 
> the two most OVER rated things in this industry are........
> 
> jazz and classical music



funny boy :mrgreen:


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## germancomponist (Feb 22, 2010)

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> back to the original topic:
> 
> - talent
> 
> - talent



- equipment

- equipment 

/\~O


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 22, 2010)

> Personnally, after reading such a statement, I would conclude that the poster doesn't have a clue on what jazz is about.



Not necessarily, sometimes it's hard to explain what you think of a certain type of music. Or you just forget certain things. I was the only other one that really attempted to explain. All the people that criticized him didn't bother to correct him.



> And you can take the best trailer on the planet: it will never come close to the works of a composer such as Stravinsky.



I still think reading comments like this is a matter of opinion. Lots of composers bash/praise whatever music/composer they want. But it's still opinion. I am NOT a firm believer that logical or intricate/complex writing takes over when it comes to music.



> Trailer music is the equivalent of an instant frozen meal, packaged and ready for immediate consumtion by the masses. Hit them hard and they will come.



Somewhat a fair statement.



> For one, it is infinitely more complex to write a sound 30 minutes piece of orchestrated music than it is to produce a one minute cue...



That actually depends. It can take considerably longer to do a 1minute theme, or other complicated piece then it does to create an orchestral "bed" during say, a scene with dialogue.


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## re-peat (Feb 22, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> (...) I was the only other one that really attempted to explain. All the people that criticized him didn't bother to correct him. (...)


Nathan,

Alex’s effort wasn’t an attempt to try and “explain jazz” (or any other of those genres which made it into his round-up), he was simply reducing all these styles to a consciously simplified and cliché perception, which is a fair enough tactic to make a point, I suppose, even though I still don’t understand what it was in answer to. Furthermore, its simplification was done so convincingly, that it made me wonder, for an unfortunate second, if he actually did believe some of it to make sense.

Your post, on the other hand, helpful as its intention may have been, does have an unmistakable didactic tone about it, which - I’m sorry to say - already condemned it to be a complete failure even before you ended typing it, vague and incomplete as you decided it to be.

_


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 22, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Personnally, after reading such a statement, I would conclude that the poster doesn't have a clue on what jazz is about.
> 
> Not necessarily, sometimes it's hard to explain what you think of a certain type of music. Or you just forget certain things. I was the only other one that really attempted to explain. All the people that criticized him didn't bother to correct him.



What is there to explain?
It's Alex's opinion and honestly, it is so far remote from what jazz is about that I am not sure where to start:
7th chords are all over popular music people have been listening to for the past century. If you had mentionned upper structure triads instead, you would have been closer. But still, not unique to jazz, obviously.

Noodling... I am speechless there. 
It takes a lifetime of dedication for a great jaz player to master the art of improvisation. Sophisticated harmonic sequences going by at 250-300 bpm require way more than "noodling" in order to be mastered.
Actually a great improvisation is comparable to a spontaneous composition.
I'd save the "noodling" label to the countless guitar solos of an area now gone (think Jerry Garcia, The Doors guitarist...and countless others)
Certainly, noodling is not a staple of jazz.
Improv is, big difference in my book.
The improvs may go over your head but there is no reason to belittle the genre for lack of appreciation (and Holthworth and Gambale, that I love myself, are not jazz guitarists)



> And you can take the best trailer on the planet: it will never come close to the works of a composer such as Stravinsky.
> 
> I still think reading comments like this is a matter of opinion. Lots of composers bash/praise whatever music/composer they want. But it's still opinion. I am NOT a firm believer that logical or intricate/complex writing takes over when it comes to music.



Yes, in some people's opinion Hannah Montana is the greatest singer ever.
But there is such a thing as belonging to a cultural consciousness and entering a "hall of fame" in the realm of music. Being recognized as a trend setter and being talked about and studied centuries after your death.
I don't believe that such a thing has happened yet with trailer music (and when it does, I hope I am long dead =o 
By the way, you may find Stavinsky complex, but AFAIMC I feel great emotional content to some of his work.
Complexity for the sake of complexity leaves me cold.
So please, let's leave that argument for another thread...



> Trailer music is the equivalent of an instant frozen meal, packaged and ready for immediate consumtion by the masses. Hit them hard and they will come.
> 
> Somewhat a fair statement.



Glad you agree. Even though, some trailer music can be extremely musical and well crafted nonetheless. My comment was about the genre as a whole ...



> For one, it is infinitely more complex to write a sound 30 minutes piece of orchestrated music than it is to produce a one minute cue...
> 
> That actually depends. It can take considerably longer to do a 1minute theme, or other complicated piece then it does to create an orchestral "bed" during say, a scene with dialogue.



Well sorry, I wasn't talking about an under-score bed :mrgreen: , despite the fact that you'll be hard pressed to find a 30 minutes long bed in any movie.
I was again talking about major classical or jazz works that are infinitely more challenging to compose and orchestrate than any one minute trailer cuwe that you can think off. But if you do, by any means, let me hear it.
I don't see how someone making a living writing trailers would find the time to isolate and spend a full year (or two or ten) on a single piece of music while neglecting his business ... >8o 
...and even if (s)he did, a masterpiece would still need to be written, which is certainly not a given...

I think there is a global tendency to label "genious" many things that remain "craft" as far as I'm concerned.
It is a sign of the times, reflecting the fact that the general understanding of music in the past 30 years has taken a turn for the worse.
It has a lot to do with the computer revolution (remember Wall-E?)


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## Waywyn (Feb 22, 2010)

Hey Patrick,

good to hear from you .. and no, I ain't see your post as more fuel to the fire, but please let me try to explain once more since I am kinda surprised that just very few people understood what I was trying to say.




Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Not wanting to add fuel to the fire or defend Piet's anger, but I thought Alex's attempt at defining jazz in such a short sighted way was inviting criticism.



Okay, this "bashdown" of all the styles I mentioned and reducing them to a absolute pervert aweful minimum was absolutely 100% on *!!PURPOSE!!* 

I simply wanted to reflect how a lot of people do the same about trailer music. Thats all 




Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Personnally, after reading such a statement, I would conclude that the poster doesn't have a clue on what jazz is about.



Forgive me, but this might just happen only because you maybe have read about 75 or even only 50% of the thread.
I seriously don't want to sound important but I mentioned that before. I had lessons with one of the greatest Jazz/Fusion guitarists being alive. I seriously can't make fun of Jazz, Fusion and all related styles. My CD shelves are packed with all kinds of CDs from Allan Holdsworth, over Miles Davis to Pat Martino to Mahavishnu Orchetra to Frank Gambale.

But you also find Robert Johnson, B.B. King .. you also find Meshuggah and Dream Theater and Enchanted aaaand so on 



Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> And you can take the best trailer on the planet: it will never come close to the works of a composer such as Stravinsky.
> I don't really understand why someone would even attempt to compare the two...



I think we absolute don't have to discuss about that. There is no way to compare the writing skills of Stravinsky's masterworks to a piece of music which tries to sell a movie! ... BUT, take 1000 people and ask them what they like to listen to. I am sure you get a very high count on Stravinksy, but don't you think there might also be a lot of people liking trailer music? It has a huge fan base. It's liked by people.

The initial reason why I chimed into that discussion was that people here do NOT accept, that this music has its very well right to exist. Because it is being liked. You can't compare trailer music to Stravinsky as the same as to Techno or African voodoo drum style .. but it's been liked by people and it fullfills a function. Not more not less.

One more thing has been mentioned here ... that people are fed up with huge percussion beds etc. ... but I just asked myself if these people respect how much work, sweat and whatnot all is in such a percussion arrangement?
It not just banging a bongo and adding a Taiko hit once in a while. It is complex - it's a skill! Not as complex as writing for orchestra but still .. it is a form you need a skill for. To be honest I have seen too much people here trying to go for "that epic" style, but they desperately failed, because they weren't aware of what work is behind all this. It's not about bringing a few Taikos together with a String pad and Horns .. we all know that, no?

Thing is, I respect every style of music because I am a musician and composer.
I could also dig further and translate music to life and say I am a human being and therefore respect every lifeform on this planet. Therefore to me it has kind of a antiracial view when people degrade styles of music .. or even better, call them noise! 
Again, I have no problem when people do not like music - my problem is that when people start thinking that something is not worthy to exist.



Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Trailer music is the equivalent of an instant frozen meal, packaged and ready for immediate consumtion by the masses. Hit them hard and they will come.



I couldn't have described it better, but ask yourself what happens if that frozen meal wasn't prepared right, if the package was faulty ... if you don't hit the masses to hard. It is more complex than you think, because - staying with trailers - the music is at least 50% if not even more responsible that people go and watch that 100 Mio Dollar Epos.
You just have to grab them by the balls, shak 'em and say ... "DUDE, YOU BETTER WATCH ME OKAY?"

So we are back on topic, everyone who is doing trailer music for the $$$ will desperately fail. It needs also a passion ... kind of the same passion as for every other style of music, too! 



Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> This may lead me to think that Alex may have an inferiority complex and needs to try to justify/defend writing for trailer music. No need to do so. We all have to survive and adapt to the demands of the market. If you can have fun while doing it, all the power to you. It's great!
> If what stylistically constitute trailer music happens to be something that you enjoy doing (big percussion, choir and metal guitars): great!
> It is then a natural for you and it will bring you pleasure as well as financial rewards (in and out =o )



I think I explained most of it, but I wil mention it again. Every style of music, ... no EVERYTHING you do in life, needs a good potion of passion. Didn't you ever meet someone and you instantly had the impression that this guy is just only doing it for me money? That he doesn't even care what he is doing?

Maybe it's something inside me which is different from lots of people. But I like that Zen attitude of life. Do everything what you do in life with joy, with passion and be interested what you do. These few words can change your whole life! 

People may call I am the biggest idiot on earth. I call it KARMA. Give and you will see lots of positive results coming to you. Money is very important - obviously, but to me money isn't all in a project.



Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> It is trying to elevate the medium to the classical or jazz genres that I have a problem with on many different levels.
> For one, it is infinitely more complex to write a sound 30 minutes piece of orchestrated music than it is to produce a one minute cue...



You are absolutely right, but just in terms of writing ... why everyone forgets sounds, sounddesign and mix/mastering?
People around here can write a certain amount of music on a day .. but do they also can sound good. What is the reason of writing the perfect cue, but you are not able to mix or mastering. What is the most complex piece of use if the final audio files distorts and sounds overcompressed?


----------



## robh (Feb 22, 2010)

spectrum @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> robh @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Michael Jackson and Madonna.
> ...


Maybe I should have qualified that with "IMO." I was never impressed with MJ (and much less with Madonna), but since they are so popular, I attribute that to personal taste.

BTW: Omnisphere ROCKS!

Rob


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## germancomponist (Feb 22, 2010)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> ..... You are absolutely right, but just in terms of writing ... why everyone forgets sounds, sounddesign and mix/mastering?
> People around here can write a certain amount of music on a day .. but do they also can sound good. What is the reason of writing the perfect cue, but you are not able to mix or mastering. What is the most complex piece of use if the final audio files distorts and sounds overcompressed?



A good point out of your last good post!

Today it is more and more a "must" that you not only have to be a good composer, but also a good engineer, mixer and sound desingner.... . And this is very important especially in the trailer industry.

Good bye Abbey Road! o/~


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## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

over

and

rated


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## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 22, 2010)

Waywyn @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Hey Patrick,
> good to hear from you .. and no, I ain't see your post as more fuel to the fire, but please let me try to explain once more since I am kinda surprised that just very few people understood what I was trying to say.
> "Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:57 pm"Not wanting to add fuel to the fire or defend Piet's anger, but I thought Alex's attempt at defining jazz in such a short sighted way was inviting criticism
> Okay, this "bashdown" of all the styles I mentioned and reducing them to a absolute pervert aweful minimum was absolutely 100% on *!!PURPOSE!!*
> I simply wanted to reflect how a lot of people do the same about trailer music. Thats all



Hi Alex, I'm good. I hope the same goes for you and your family.
I knew that we could have a respectful conversation :D 
It feels to me that you were fed up with people talking negatively about trailer music and you posted provocatively...and that got you in trouble.
I remember a great drummer friend of mine telling me when I was in my 30's that jazz was dead. It got me really pissed because I intended my make a career in that field and felt that there were many ways to create something fresh and trendy, despite the fact that he was right.
Jazz as a popular art form is dead.
Some say rock is dead, and I may agree with that staement as well.
But that doesn't mean that there are not possibilities to come up with something good and creative.
Same goes with trailer music, if you're fortunate enough to be able to impose your vision to a bunch of studio heads (o) 




Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Personnally, after reading such a statement, I would conclude that the poster doesn't have a clue on what jazz is about
> 
> Forgive me, but this might just happen only because you maybe have read about 75 or even only 50% of the thread.
> I seriously don't want to sound important but I mentioned that before. I had lessons with one of the greatest Jazz/Fusion guitarists being alive. I seriously can't make fun of Jazz, Fusion and all related styles. My CD shelves are packed with all kinds of CDs from Allan Holdsworth, over Miles Davis to Pat Martino to Mahavishnu Orchetra to Frank Gambale.
> ...



Well then, I think that my first assumpion is correct and that you posted before thinking :mrgreen: 
"cause if you understand jazz, then your original quote is contradictory.
Granted, jazz-fusion has its excesses and there was much noodling going on at a certain time, just before it died. But it was high virtuosity noodling at that ! =o 
And jazz-fusion is only a short portion of jazz history and cannot speak for the whole genre... 



Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> And you can take the best trailer on the planet: it will never come close to the works of a composer such as Stravinsky.
> I don't really understand why someone would even attempt to compare the two
> 
> I think we absolute don't have to discuss about that. There is no way to compare the writing skills of Stravinsky's masterworks to a piece of music which tries to sell a movie! ... BUT, take 1000 people and ask them what they like to listen to. I am sure you get a very high count on Stravinksy, but don't you think there might also be a lot of people liking trailer music? It has a huge fan base. It's liked by people.
> ...



I agree. it is pointless to compare (and I did) and of course trailer music has a right to exist.



> One more thing has been mentioned here ... that people are fed up with huge percussion beds etc. ... but I just asked myself if these people respect how much work, sweat and whatnot all is in such a percussion arrangement?
> It not just banging a bongo and adding a Taiko hit once in a while. It is complex - it's a skill! Not as complex as writing for orchestra but still .. it is a form you need a skill for. To be honest I have seen too much people here trying to go for "that epic" style, but they desperately failed, because they weren't aware of what work is behind all this. It's not about bringing a few Taikos together with a String pad and Horns .. we all know that, no?
> 
> Thing is, I respect every style of music because I am a musician and composer.
> ...



I hear you



> Trailer music is the equivalent of an instant frozen meal, packaged and ready for immediate consumtion by the masses. Hit them hard and they will come.
> 
> I couldn't have described it better, but ask yourself what happens if that frozen meal wasn't prepared right, if the package was faulty ... if you don't hit the masses to hard. It is more complex than you think, because - staying with trailers - the music is at least 50% if not even more responsible that people go and watch that 100 Mio Dollar Epos.
> You just have to grab them by the balls, shak 'em and say ... "DUDE, YOU BETTER WATCH ME OKAY?"
> ...



Again I agree. We'd better enjoy what we do or else, we may as well quit and get a regular day job. At least in that case, we get to go home at night and write music the way YOU want it to be.
I have to say that at times, it is hard to enjoy it though, if you know what I mean...



Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> It is trying to elevate the medium to the classical or jazz genres that I have a problem with on many different levels.
> For one, it is infinitely more complex to write a sound 30 minutes piece of orchestrated music than it is to produce a one minute cue...
> 
> You are absolutely right, but just in terms of writing ... why everyone forgets sounds, sounddesign and mix/mastering?
> People around here can write a certain amount of music on a day .. but do they also can sound good. What is the reason of writing the perfect cue, but you are not able to mix or mastering. What is the most complex piece of use if the final audio files distorts and sounds overcompressed?



well, mix and mastering is common to all music genres so forget about that.
Sound design is another animal and in my book it is a creative medium as well.
An art? A craft?
Not sure, but it is fun (as long as the composing ratio is bigger than the sound design ratio, in my case o-[][]-o )


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## Waywyn (Feb 22, 2010)

Patrick de Caumette @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> cause if you understand jazz, then your original quote is contradictory.
> Granted, jazz-fusion has its excesses and there was much noodling going on at a certain time, just before it died. But it was high virtuosity noodling at that ! =o
> And jazz-fusion is only a short portion of jazz history and cannot speak for the whole genre...



Hey Patrick, yes all well so far thx! ... I hope you forgive me, I am not sure if it's me standing on my own synapses here or if it's a language thing. Also I think I didn't express myself the way I want to regarding my "noodling" and pervertly degrading all those music styles.

I was indeed thinking before I posted ... my only intension was to be a reflection of what people said about trailer music. I never would think of noodling when it comes to jazz or fusion ... holy moly, I love when hatt instrumentalists express themself.

I hope I can say it better with this comparison. Someone cuts you with a knife .. then you cut him too and he goes "ouuuch" .... then you say: "see? that's how you hit me before."

Of course I don't like cutting someone, but I just used a knife/held up a mirror to reflect ones degrading opinion to another style of music .. and tatata everyone went for it.


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## Craig Sharmat (Feb 22, 2010)

re-peat @ Sat Feb 20 said:


> Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) ... or maybe you didn't get my point.(...)
> ...



This is out and out bullying and it will stop now. I realize I have a bigger stick and will use it if necessary. I am not keeping this private as you have offended enough people here and believe the members should see it.


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## kid-surf (Feb 22, 2010)

From my POV: Alex was playing Devil's Advocate...which apparently was lost in translation - then - Re-Peat jumped on his ass over said misunderstanding.

If there's anyone here who doesn't give a shit about creating their very best work each and every time out of the gate...please stand the fuck up so that we can throw rocks at you!

...silence...

Nobody...?

...silence...

Going once.

...silence...

Twice.

...silence...

Case closed. The rest is minutia and male pride. Not that it ain't worth discussing...

...Carry on.

--EDIT--

*To be clear: My post was not a response to Craig's post. We were apparently typing at the same time. I'm 100% with Craig...always.*


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## Peter Emanuel Roos (Feb 22, 2010)

re-peat @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > (...) I was the only other one that really attempted to explain. All the people that criticized him didn't bother to correct him. (...)
> ...



Piet,

Craig has already warned you - you are going way too far with your attacks, insults and condescending remarks towards fellow forum members.

What irritates me most about your presence here is that you do not post any link to your site (if you have one) or to your work. You recently posted some music of yours and then removed it quickly. What's up with that? Why hide behind a nick name and not be a real, traceable person, like many of us?

You bash Alex Pfeffer really hard - he is here as a person. You are here just a nickname and an avatar that gives no clue about you.

I suggest you play it fair and post your name and personal website, with your music.


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Feb 22, 2010)

Peter,

I had not actually warned Piet yet.

also he is under no obligation to share anything personal or otherwise with the board.


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 22, 2010)

Craig Sharmat @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> re-peat @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> 
> 
> > Waywyn @ Sat Feb 20 said:
> ...



Craig- as one of Piet's foremost critics on this forum( re personal attacks), I ask that you don't get into banning, please. I feel some of this crap has been egregious, but I hated N.S's way of dealing with things, and I've always felt this place went out of its way not to go that route. It's been a major reason I've enjoyed it so much, despite the random nastiness.

I've seen Piet make numerous valuable contributions here. He's obviously a knowledgeable and erudite fellow. I'd wish the vox populi would take more issue with his random acts of cruelty and bear-baiting, but I don't want to see anyone banned.


----------



## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

...

personal
and
otherwise

Alex
and
Piet

...

vox populi
and
random acts of cruelty

...

bear-baiting
and
bans

...


----------



## mikebarry (Feb 22, 2010)

This is why the internet can be so lame, you would never say some of this shit to someones face. Most of us writer trailer style music when called upon - whats the big deal. Holy crap some of you are just here to be stupid and stir trouble.


----------



## _taylor (Feb 22, 2010)

Emanuel @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> What irritates me most about your presence here is that you do not post any link to your site (if you have one) or to your work. You recently posted some music of yours and then removed it quickly. What's up with that? Why hide behind a nick name and not be a real, traceable person, like many of us?
> 
> You bash Alex Pfeffer really hard - he is here as a person. You are here just a nickname and an avatar that gives no clue about you.
> 
> I suggest you play it fair and post your name and personal website, with your music.




I've been thinking the same...


----------



## mjc (Feb 22, 2010)

This is really just another prime examples how sensitive us musos are! :lol: 

Each sticking up for our musical beliefs...and in turn getting worked up and blurting out stuff we wouldn't even think of saying to each others face...

...what's been said been said...and while a lot of the comments have been uncalled for...let's hope that this is just a reminder to reel ourselves back once in a while!

Cheers! o-[][]-o 

Now what was I up to today?...oh yeh! Doing music for a living  
o/~ o=<


----------



## mjc (Feb 22, 2010)

mikebarry @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> This is why the internet can be so lame, you would never say some of this [email protected]#t to someones face. Most of us writer trailer style music when called upon - whats the big deal. Holy crap some of you are just here to be stupid and stir trouble.



Though despite my attempt at a peace making comment, I do I agree with this...


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 22, 2010)

NYC Composer @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> mikebarry @ Mon Feb 22 said:
> 
> 
> > This is why the internet can be so lame, you would never say some of this [email protected]#t to someones face. Most of us writer trailer style music when called upon - whats the big deal. Holy crap some of you are just here to be stupid and stir trouble.
> ...



Actually, I believe that we wouldn't get to the point of punching each other out if debating face to face.
You can read and adjust to other people's reactions when face to face.
Having a chance to clarify one's point of view almost instantly prevents us from getting to that ugly place...


----------



## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

...

being stupid
and
stirring trouble

lame internet
and
speaking to people like this face to face

...


----------



## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

...

complete disagreements
and
constant pummeling

again
and
again

personal attacks
and
possible debates

...


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 22, 2010)

mf @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> ...
> 
> complete disagreements
> and
> ...



Lengthy haikus?


----------



## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

...

and... ? ...

Lengthy haikus 
and... 

...

and what?


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 22, 2010)

mf @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> ...
> 
> and... ? ...
> 
> ...



Actually, I was asking what your purpose was in quoting me( and others) so poetically.


----------



## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

Oh, com' on, play along, it's really easy. And fun. Goes like that:

The two most OVER rated things in this industry are........

...

purpose
and
asking

me
and
others

lengthy haikus
and
poetical quoting

...


You see? Worms are back in the can. It's a kind of magic.


----------



## NYC Composer (Feb 22, 2010)

Oh, I get it now. I'll pass, though. Enjoy!


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 22, 2010)

> Your post, on the other hand, helpful as its intention may have been, does have an unmistakable didactic tone about it, which - I’m sorry to say - already condemned it to be a complete failure even before you ended typing it, vague and incomplete as you decided it to be.



To do that I'd have to write a thesis.

Also, someone said that 7th chords are in other music. But let's not forget that jazz itself has been an influence in countless genres of music.

Also Jazz does have a different meaning to some people. Some people don't think dixieland is jazz, or 30s/40s big band, etc.


----------



## re-peat (Feb 22, 2010)

*Peter*, it irritates you that you don't know about my a website?? What's next? You wanna know my shoesize too? And where I will have lunch next Saturday? As it happens, I don't have a website. Believe it or not, but there are people who manage perfectly well without one, you know. And I don't have cellphone or an iPod either, if you must know. Nor am I part of any of the social networks which are all the rage these days. (I mentioned all these things already on previous occasions here on the forum, you know, but that must have escaped you attention, I guess.)
What makes you think you're entitled to ask me any of this anyway? And as for my name: everyone who has taken an interest in me - for whatever reason, positive or a negative - knows perfectly well what my name is and where I live. Come to think of it, you've already addressed me in some thread using my name, so what the hell are you going on about? (And what difference does all of this make anyway?) Besides, if you're that fascinated by me, why not send me a PM? (You could even use your own language!) Everyone who does, always gets a proper reply, no matter what they're inquiring about or asking for. Just ask around, if you need that confirmed.

And seriously, tell me, what business is it of yours how long I decide to place my music online? If I, and I alone, choose to share my music for just one second, then that's how it'll be and not a second longer. If that irritates you too, so be it, I couldn't care less. By the time I decided to disable the link you're referring to, the thread was visited well over 600 times, which was more than enough for me. Entirely satisfying. I'm sorry that I'm not like some other people around here who are just dying for that last ounce of shallow appreciation.



*Craig*, you sensible canine, what can I say? Not much, I suppose. I see a big stern frown on your face and hear a bark that's close to becoming a bite. You obviously feel that I crossed some line which should not be crossed, isn't it? 
I guess you'll find it hard to believe (and Larry will find it even harder to believe), but this time - in all sincerity - I REALLY do not understand what all the fuss is about. (I did fully understand in the Kury-thread and in the KirkHunter-thread, but this time ... no, I just don’t see it.) Someone really needs to explain to me what's so particularly offensive about my language in this thread. Is it the sex reference? That was, I thought, a rather apt reply to Alex's original use of that same metaphor: a caricaturesque banalisation of what we both (Alex and me, and I hope you too) know to be a far more complex act. And surely, no one can object to my statement that Alex’s and my way of thinking about music are diametrically opposed? Alex acknowledges that difference and so do I. Anything wrong with that? Or was it the umbrella-thing maybe? (Nikolas was rather upset by that one, I believe.) I am sorry, but if someonce first admits to a consciously simplistic and purely functional approach to a certain type of musicmaking (Alex decribing his work ethic regarding "trailer music") and then suddenly says that he pours "his heart and his head" onto the public, than I’m just a bit puzzled because I simply can’t link those two things together in one and the same process of musicmaking. Hence my umbrellas. Is that considered an insult these days?

If it is, then yes, I completely agree that I’m in big trouble here. Very enjoyable and entertaining trouble, but trouble nonetheless.

(Did anyone actually bother to ask Alex if he felt insulted by me? We all know that a lot of other people felt gravely insulted in his place - a very courageous thing to do in these circumstances, you can all congratulate yourselves -, but Alex himself?)

Anyway, let’s do it like we did the last time, shall we? No, let’s do one better: everyone who feels offended or insulted by me, just let me know how severe the damage is that I caused, and I’ll apologize accordingly and personally, ok? And no, I’m not making fun of this. Well, maybe just a bit, because, after all, this is pretty ridiculous predicament we have found ourselves in, I believe. And I’m convinced that anyone, (re)reading this thread a few weeks from now, will be just as perplexed as I am today at the highly bizarre course it took. 

Even so (and despite what Larry thinks), I don’t wake up in the morning with the malevolent intention of offending some poor sods online. I can only remember one single occasion where I insulted with full intent (not my finest hour perhaps), but all the other times, as in this thread, I have to be told first that I’m being offensive otherwise I just wouldn’t know.

But I’m told now. So I know. At least, I'm even more aware than before of the sanctimonious theatre that's so important to this crowd.

Anyway, the jazz police is off to bed now.

_


----------



## re-peat (Feb 22, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> (...) To do that I'd have to write a thesis.(...)


My point exactly, Nathan.


----------



## Guy Bacos (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm getting ready to make drapes with this thread.


----------



## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

...

in-out-in-out complex sex acts
and
umbrellas

barks
and
bites

threads
and
drapes

...

ants
and
apes

...


----------



## esteso (Feb 23, 2010)

loops

&

loops

(how about 3 things?)

&

loops


----------



## Waywyn (Feb 23, 2010)

re-peat @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> (Did anyone actually bother to ask Alex if he felt insulted by me? We all know that a lot of other people felt gravely insulted in his place - a very courageous thing to do in these circumstances, you can all congratulate yourselves -, but Alex himself?)



re-peat, let me please explain the thing which baffled me kinda. You are a talented writer and you are intelligent. So I kinda couldn't understand why you felt offended by my pervert banal minimizing post of other music style (noodling solos etc.) plus the sex comparison. Yes I know sex is more than in, out, in, out ... but you were thinking that this description might be my basic esssential description of sex? I mean it should be obvious by now what I was trying to say. I was simply holding up a mirror how you and other guys were degrading trailer music.


With the pouring heart and head I simply wanted to say, that a good composer, no matter what he works on is NOT only doing it for the money. He/she makes sure to really get a good job done because it's something which falls back on him/her and might result in more upcoming jobs.

Even tho it is just about trying to sell a movie by doing some bishbangboom music.
This is not he only style of music I am doing. I produce rock/pop stuff for artists, the same as I write pure orchestra for games and I can easily say that each of those processes got it's challenges.

I know so many guys who just tried to get into the games/trailers/pop bizz because they thought they can earn some quick good money, but since they were just focused on writing and harmonies/theories and all the trying to be sophisticated they deperately failed.

I could really have another weird comparison going on for that industry designer who is designing cars. The main reason why someone would buy a car, is to get from A to B ... so 95% of the people may not want fluiscent wheels, mirror-ish kind of paint, lights and futuristic designs all over the place. They simply need the car to get from A to B - nothing else.

But still, on projects where the main focus is not about the music only, one can have passion doing his job (which eveyone should have)

.. so coming back to the pouring heart thing, I just ment that people put not less sweat, passion, skill and experience into trailer music than ANY other working composer/artist working in other genres.

I hope that clarifies it a bit more.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 23, 2010)

I am sorry to interrupt but there is some random stuff going on this this thread.


Firstly, I am not sure why a few posts have been deleted in between??

Musicphiles had posted a few comments that seem to have been deleted. 


Yet, I see many more ugly comments still on this thread? 

I think I would like to request Nikolas to undo the changes if possible because I dont think it was that nasty at all. 


And I think this is linked to Zimmer being bashed up on this forum repeatedly without any reason.


Does VI control have an anti-zimmer policy or something? Because - I dont understand - why repeatedly crushing a public figure is ok?

(who by the way is someone who is very influential in the popularity use and development of sampling technology that we all use today). 


Very random!



Tanuj.


----------



## re-peat (Feb 23, 2010)

Alex, thanks. Believe me, I fully understand what it is you're trying to say.

The big question remains however: did YOU, at any one time during this thread, feel insulted, offended or bullied by any of the things that I wrote? Did I hurt your feelings in any way? That's what I would like to know.

_(Your witty use of the sex metaphor didn't offend me in the least, by the way. Like I said in my previous post: I was merely puzzled to find what I consider two entirely different approaches to music - one more pragmatic oriented, the other more veering towards the passionate/artistc - combined in one and the same workethic. But you've cleared that up now with perfectly sensible argumentation.)_

_


----------



## Waywyn (Feb 23, 2010)

re-peat @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> Alex, thanks. Believe me, I fully understand what it is you're trying to say.
> 
> The big question remains however: did YOU, at any one time during this thread, feel insulted, offended or bullied by any of the things that I wrote? Did I hurt your feelings in any way? That's what I would like to know.
> 
> ...



I felt a bit insulted, when I tried to explain my purpose and you weren't willing to accept it at one point, but hey, I am glad we sorted that out.
So no worries in the end!

And to be honest (obviously in a funny way, but that's really the country I am coming from in germany), but it really takes a while to bring down the Hessian! :D


----------



## lux (Feb 23, 2010)

I wouldnt say that, but Re-peat your lack of education and human behaviour is just proportional to your eloquence which merely acts as a formal cover for your rudeness. Still your human kind isnt saved by your ability to manipulate words.

I will not care for any tedious two-paged rethorics from you in response to this.

enough is enough.

btw, i smile at how you try to bullshit people replying with "strictly matter" things while people just point out how unheducated you are. Manner, not matter.


----------



## Patrick de Caumette (Feb 23, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> > Your post, on the other hand, helpful as its intention may have been, does have an unmistakable didactic tone about it, which - I’m sorry to say - already condemned it to be a complete failure even before you ended typing it, vague and incomplete as you decided it to be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes, and also that 7th chords and beyond were common practice way before jazz came around...
And that classical song froms have had just as much of an influence, if not bigger than jazz, on popular music...


----------



## nikolas (Feb 23, 2010)

vibrato @ Tue Feb 23 said:


> Firstly, I am not sure why a few posts have been deleted in between??
> 
> Musicphiles had posted a few comments that seem to have been deleted.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if a member should know the reasons or get a detailed secription everytime something happens in a forum actually!

I 'm not 100% certain of musicphiles posts, or who he actually is (I know musictronics, but he's not philes, but tronics, but the member whose posts I deleted had 2 posts. He registered to post these two posts against Guy (whose posts I also deleted, since they were following the very rude approach of that member).

I'm not even sure where does Musicphiles comes into play here??? :roll:


----------



## Guy Bacos (Feb 23, 2010)

I don't care if those posts stay or are deleted, but I thought they came out of left field and were uncalled for, especially being his first post on this forum, being rude to me for no apparent reason.


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 23, 2010)

Nikolas,

Nobody is asking you for a detailed report on it! I dont think its that complicated a matter.

And secondly, why not? Why is it wrong for a member to question the moderator? I dont think this forum works according to voting or anything? I dint appoint you...?

Thats a funny statement really. 


Please let me clarify myself. This is not about Zimmer or about Guy or you Nikolas. I respect all three of you. 


I am simply talking about the logic of things regarding certain matters on this forum.


Since you are the moderator - of course, I have to respect your decision - and that is why if you read my previous post - I am simply requesting - not demanding you to undo your actions. 


And I find it very funny that you say that the moderator is not answerable - If anything, it is the opposite. 

If you are the moderator - it does come with certain responsibilities - just like you saw fit to delete those posts - you also need to be answerable. 


Tanuj.


----------



## nikolas (Feb 23, 2010)

My words are very exact: "I don't think any member should get a breakdown of everything that happens and the whys". I mean it quite simple: I'm not above anyone, I don't really consider myself "awesome" or anything like that here, but saw some very nasty posts and decided to kill them, before it got further out of hand for no reason.

In this forum it's impossible to undelete posts (something I wasn't aware of beforehand), so your request is impossible to be carried out! 

And to make it clear: It's not about being answerable. Those who know me, know very well how civil and democratic I try to keep things. But it's also a matter of trust.

Anyways, what's with musicphiles? I don't recall his membership nickname... :S


----------



## Craig Sharmat (Feb 23, 2010)

We normally do not delete posts here and Nikolas is a new moderator and unaware of certain policies of deleting posts. He's a good guy so cut him some slack on this one.
that said if we had seen those posts we might have deleted them or not. Sometimes we decide not to delete posts so everyone can judge the poster on his own actions and make a mental reference so you know whether to engage this person in the future.


----------



## Brian Ralston (Feb 23, 2010)

Upon opening and attempting to read this thread from the beginning...this best explains what I did.


----------



## midphase (Feb 23, 2010)

Image not coming thru on my end.

Never mind...works now....damn Java.


----------



## Hannes_F (Feb 23, 2010)

I see where Piet is coming from since Alex has a habit of coarsening himself more than he probably is and that can be provoking. On the other hand why get into a provocation and reply even ruder?

Both are good guys imo and very valuable members so give them a break. 

Alex, I observe your comments since a while and wonder what you are really trying to say. If I would take it literally I would have to think that you are agressive against much of what I care for. But I am not taking it literally because I think you might mean something else. In this thread I noticed that you might even feel unlistened to, so maybe you open a new thread sometimes about what is in your mind?


----------



## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 23, 2010)

This is what happened:

1. Trailer music is said as being overrated.
2. Alex gets concerned with this statement, and defends it.
3. Some people "no we're not talking about you"
4. But then some people say "all trailer music is, is the same form/elements every time"
5. Alex comes back with a SARCASTIC response doing the same to all styles of music, including jazz, in able to show that no, trailer music doesn't have the same formula every time, and can be just as diverse if the composer is willing like other styles of music.
6. People took offense to his post, thinking he was serious when he was trying to make a point.
7. ???
8. Profit

For the record, trailer music follows a similar form because trailers follow a similar form. But honestly, not ALL trailer music sounds the same to me. It has a similar form, but a lot of music does in the first place.


----------



## mf (Feb 23, 2010)

...

venting
and
provoking

resentments
and
projections

In & Out Burgers
and
epic trailers

...

two steps from hell

...


----------



## Tanuj Tiku (Feb 23, 2010)

Nikolas,


I dont know you personally but I have read many posts that you have written - and I can tell that you are a good guy. And I request you not to think of my request on VI control moderator responsibilities or actions on such matters as me saying that you are a bad person.


I am not forcing anyone to do anything - it was just a request and I already said that I respect your choice to delete those posts. 

In fact, if you have read some of my posts on other threads - they are also pushing for peace mostly. 

I know it is hard to control such a big forum and with so many statements being made left, right and center. 

I just wanted to let you know how I felt about something - just as a member.


I still think that moderators can be questioned. And if asked - they should give out a reason - as you have already done my friend.

I know you only have good intent in your heart as you dont want to start flame wars here!!


Btw - Musicphiles happens to be a good friend of mine who frequents this forum a lot of times - he is also present on cubase forum with the same nick name. He has always praised this forum to be way better than all other forums he has been on - he has even subscribed to the VI control magazine. He is also a great composer who is immensely successful!

So I can say with full confidence that he did not just create his account to post against Guy. 




Tanuj.


----------



## nikolas (Feb 24, 2010)

Tanuj,

No problem, no hard feelings, no nothing... Don't worry, as I understand! I just feel bad that I can't bring back the deleted posts anymore!

As I said, this forum does not have an undeelete post feature, so I'm unable to check the member nickname whose posts I deleted! I actually don't think it was from musicphiles... 

I've been trying to find musicphiles, hist posts, etc, but search returns no posts, he has not visited the forum in the past 48 hours or so... I can't remember, honestly.

As I said I deleted 2 posts, from someone who had 2 posts, both attacking Guy and I think (but not entirely sure) that his/her nickname started with "e". 

This is puzzling to me, this is why I post now and nothing more!


----------



## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2010)

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> This is what happened:
> 
> 1. Trailer music is said as being overrated.
> 2. Alex gets concerned with this statement, and defends it.
> ...



*LOL* thanks Nathan ... I was just constantly nodding through all the points.


----------



## Lex (Feb 24, 2010)

re-peat @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> .. people having the professional attitude to deliver what’s being asked and trying their best to — within the many limitations imposed by the job — come up with as good a product as they possibly can, even if it means sacrificing some (or a lot) of what their creative instincts would rather have them do...
> _




...this pretty much nails it, its a very restrictive form. On the other hand when you manage to write a track that fits in to every and all restrictive "trailer rules" and still sneak in an idea or two that you feel stongly about, the expirience starts to be artisticly rewarding, not just financialy.

Other thing that no1 mentioned so far is that form is restrictive because of the way editors cut the trailers, if they cut them differently we could score them diferently...but trailers are still largely an area where everyone wants to play safe...the production house, marketing department, trailer house...so once it comes to you, the composer, you really think they will change how they think just cause you have a great idea? 

There are exceptions from time to time, and I hope we see more...Thomases "Star Trek" is prolly the best example...the track itself is really good, but what really made that trailer stand out was the marriage betwen the picture, music and emotion...the editor simply "got it"..

There is a lot of bad...really bad music in the trailer world, true...but there is much, much more bad music in TV shows, radio jingles, corporate videos, reality shows, tv adds...and so on and so fort....so why does trailer music gets the special bashing?...money?...i guess..same reasons as Zimmer gets bashing around here..

Also I feel the need to point one thing out, at least 80% of you on this forum are not able to write trailer music...I agree it is very restrictive and simple form of composing, but, most of you cant do it...mostly cause you lack the chops in composing, orchestrating, arangeing and producing, to make a track that will have a chance of ending up in a big production trailer.
And yet, some of you go so far as saying trailer music is not music at all?

And for the life of me I cant get why is everyone so upset with re-peat...most of the times I dont agree with the guy, but what a hell was so offending in this thread?

cheers

aLex

www.aleksandardimitrijevic.com


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 24, 2010)

Lex @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> .... There is a lot of bad...really bad music in the trailer world, true...but there is much, much more bad music in TV shows, radio jingles, corporate videos, reality shows, tv adds...and so on and so fort....so why does trailer music gets the special bashing?...money?...i guess..same reasons as Zimmer gets bashing around here..



True, very true!



> Also I feel the need to point one thing out, at least 80% of you on this forum are not able to write trailer music...I agree it is very restrictive and simple form of composing, but, most of you cant do it...mostly cause you lack the chops in composing, orchestrating, arangeing and producing, to make a track that will have a chance of ending up in a big production trailer.
> And yet, some of you go so far as saying trailer music is not music at all? ....



Oops, I am one of them who said trailers are not music. 

After reading your words here I asked to myself: "Am I able to do a good trailer?"

With your words you invited me to listen to some trailers and now I want to know it. 

o-[][]-o


----------



## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2010)

Besides all the trailer music discussion, for me, there is another good example of that pure composition in not everything.

I adore the soundtrack to Minority Report but the moment I was on 02:47 on Sean and Lara, I almost fell from my chair.

That synth used there, sounded as if my little sister would suddenly drop in my room and comp the track with her little Bontempi keyboard which was driven by air.

Now I am asking myself what was going on? Underestimating synth as an instrument?

Maybe some or all of you guys wouldn't think it is that bad, but to me it feels like someone wanted to sneak in heavy duty percussions to a war track but used the little hi-tuned Conga which was on accident placed in a corner of the recording room.


----------



## germancomponist (Feb 24, 2010)

Alex,

I am now interested to listen to good produced trailers. 

Could you perhaps post one or two links where I can watch and listen to your trailer work?

Thanks!


----------



## Lex (Feb 24, 2010)

Waywyn @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> Besides all the trailer music discussion, for me, there is another good example of that pure composition in not everything.
> 
> I adore the soundtrack to Minority Report but the moment I was on 02:47 on Sean and Lara, I almost fell from my chair.
> 
> ...



Weird....I always thought that cue and that little dreamy sound work so well with the scene....

aLex


----------



## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2010)

@Lex: Hehe, funny ... but maybe I should add that it wasn't only the sound but also the playing itself. Weird attack, overlapping notes here and there, but too short to be on purpose etc. ... I think some more programming/automation etc. would have been cool. It just feels like it was thrown in.


@Gunther: You can check YouTube for Sonic Symphony.
Please have in mind that I didn't write the tracks but arranged them.

You can also hit www.pp-music.net and listen to Sepulcrum and Astrum Eterna in the player (scroll up a bit). These tracks are more actual.

There is also some more cool stuff coming along mid this year but more later
(I know shameless self promo!)


----------



## Lex (Feb 24, 2010)

germancomponist @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> Alex,
> 
> I am now interested to listen to good produced trailers.
> 
> ...



Not gonna self-pimp myself, but here are some links where you can hear some of the best trailer tracks out there..

First stop 2 steps from hell
http://www.facebook.com/twostepsfromhell

Second Immediate Music
http://www.facebook.com/immediatemusic?ref=sgm

From those to pages you can find your way to X-Ray, Full Tilt, and couple of other trailer music houses..

And here is some direct links to trailers and trailer music I like...and can remember recently..

Thomas
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1098488937963

Thomas
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1300376065015

Troels
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R20-MOOZPpY

Troels
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxuAI7ETKZU

E.S. Posthumus/Pfeifer Broz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byFLEOYi ... re=related


cheers

aLex


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## germancomponist (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks a lot, Alex & aLex!

You both Alexes.... .


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2010)

Oh, actually I wasn't even sure if Gunther ment me ... Pardon Lex, it wasn't my intention to grab the first chair in the room!


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## Waywyn (Feb 24, 2010)

@Lex, perfect list. Couldn't add anything more.


By the way here is a real good one.

I hope you dig the flute players expression and grace:


Sorry, just kidding of course but couldn't resist. See it as a funny fade out to our hot discussion phase


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## mf (Feb 24, 2010)

trailers
and 
trailers


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## Angel (Feb 25, 2010)

erm... I don't get it, why trailermusic isn't music... I really don't get it. Must be the language.

I am no fan over trailermusic either, 'cause I am flooded by this when switching on tv.
BUT (can you see how big that "but" is?) I think trailermusic can carry real power and that sometimes makes ma yaw drop. And then listening is fun.

And Alex strength IS trailer music. I understand that he is kinda pissed when he read, that trailer music is overrated per se.

I wish I could write and PRODUCE such cues.

Ah... and to get back to topic.


"Angel's opinion"


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 25, 2010)

One of the only trailers I remember (sorry, no disrespect) is for Little Children... and it has no music!! But the sound of the train - that's killer effective, and an original use of sound playing the role of trailer music:

http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/newl ... edium.html


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## Justus (Feb 25, 2010)

I agree, this trailer really stands out!


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## mf (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes, it stands out by replacing the usual noisy-punchy clutter with the sound of a train. But, unfortunately, this soundtrack doesn't fail at misrepresenting the film: in the good tradition of trailer music, the train sound here creates an atmosphere of urgency that is completely alien to the film itself, an urgency having more to do with [i:dòš­   ÆÞÌš­   ÆÞÍš®   ÆÞÎš®   ÆÞÏš®   ÆÞÐš®   ÆÞÑš®   ÆÞÒš®   ÆÞÓš®   ÆÞÔš®   ÆÞÕš®   ÆÞÖš®   ÆÞ×š®   ÆÞØš®   ÆÞÙš®   ÆÞÚš®   ÆÞÛš®   ÆÞÜš®   ÆÞÝš®   ÆÞÞš®   ÆÞßš®   ÆÞàš®   ÆÞáš®   ÆÞâš®   ÆÞãš®   ÆÞäš®   ÆÞåš®   ÆÞæš®   ÆÞçš®   ÆÞèš®   ÆÞéš®   ÆÞêš®   ÆÞëš®   ÆÞìš®   ÆÞíš®   ÆÞîš®   ÆÞïš®   ÆÞðš®   ÆÞñš®   ÆÞòš®   ÆÞóš®   ÆÞôš®   ÆÞõš®   ÆÞöš®   ÆÞ÷š®   ÆÞøš®   ÆÞùš®   ÆÞ


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2010)

mf @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> Trailers, like all ads, are scored with jingles. (which is the reverse of songs being "scored" with videoclips - same commercial principle.)



Is it really so? You just assume or you KNOW?!


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## _taylor (Feb 26, 2010)

I think this thread is looping at 25 posts per cycle.


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2010)

_taylor @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> I think this thread is looping at 25 posts per cycle.



Yes, I have the same feeling honestly. You know why that is? 
Because some people just bother to argument about the elements which they either want to argue on or just assuming something which they think it could probably maybe be this way.


... and sorry to mention and kinda ask that again. I really really seriously do NOT ... and absolutely NOT understand how someone can call this NOT music (especially from around the house raising into the sky):
http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/disn ... edium.html


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## spectrum (Feb 26, 2010)

mf @ Thu Feb 25 said:


> Yes, it stands out by replacing the usual noisy-punchy clutter with the sound of a train. But, unfortunately, this soundtrack doesn't fail at misrepresenting the film: in the good tradition of trailer music, the train sound here creates an atmosphere of urgency that is completely alien to the film itself, an urgency having more to do with _urging_ us to go see the movie.


Hmmm....I think that trailer matched the actual film very, very well. The story of the film is very much one of spiraling out of control and things getting crazier - like the trailer conveys. When I saw the film after I had seen the trailer, I knew exactly what to expect and what type of story it would be.


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## mf (Feb 26, 2010)

spectrum @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> mf @ Thu Feb 25 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, it stands out by replacing the usual noisy-punchy clutter with the sound of a train. But, unfortunately, this soundtrack doesn't fail at misrepresenting the film: in the good tradition of trailer music, the train sound here creates an atmosphere of urgency that is completely alien to the film itself, an urgency having more to do with _urging_ us to go see the movie.
> ...


I didn't see it as a story of things getting crazier, but that's probably because I haven't seen the trailer before the film. Yes, the trailer suggests increasing urgency and things _spiraling_ out of control - and perhaps that conditioned you (and others) to read the film that way.

The main story was rather banal [SPOILERS]: two people trapped in their early midlife crisis try to escape it and fail because each of them experience a surprising accident reminding them what they really care for. The way their affair unfolds was predictable, flat, and linear - no _spiraling_ there. It was the subplot with the sexually obsessed guy and the retired policeman that was imo the true richness of this film, what made it special, and the trailer eludes that part completely - thus, misrepresenting the film and misguiding the film goer's expectations.

Which is exactly why I avoid watching trailers whenever I can - they create false expectations about the film, give deceptive reasons for going to see it, spoil the movie, and ruin the film experience.


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## germancomponist (Feb 26, 2010)

There is one thing what I find horrible when I listen to trailers: These choir voices! Umghpft.... !

Why must the most trailer producers do copy that?


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2010)

mf @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> Which is exactly why I avoid watching trailers whenever I can - they create false expectations about the film, give deceptive reasons for going to see it, spoil the movie, and ruin the film experience.



Hey man, seriously excuse me and with all the necessary respect, but also in your last post.
Why are you always so generally speaking about at ALL trailers. This is simply NOT true, that trailers spoil the movie. I know what you mean, some do, some show the best scenes to simply having people pay the ticket and then leave them dissapointed, but it is not ALL. If ALL trailers would spoil movies, the concept of trailer would not be used no more since a long time.

I know there are shitty trailers, I know there is shitty trailer music, but it's not generally ALL trailer music and ALL trailers.

It is almost the same with cars and motorbikes. If a cardriver has an accident it was Mr. or Mrs. X .. but if it was a motorcycle drivers ... it's typically THE motorcycle drivers. I simply don't like this generalizing attitude. Why do you do that?


Also regarding my previous questions which you ignored (sory if you didn't on purpose):
"Trailers, like all ads, are scored with jingles. (which is the reverse of songs being "scored" with videoclips - same commercial principle.)"

In my opinion this is NOT true:

1. Jingles are 00:03 to 00:30 mins long. Trailer music starts at around 01:00 to 03:30 (or longer)
Jingles are no pieces at all. Those are more a kind of soundlogos.

2. Same as commercial principle? Apperantly YOU didn't do jobs where you had to compose music for ads, but I know tons of people who do (incl. me) ... and vice versa pitching directly for a certain trailer. Of course I keep in mind that it still stays the same thing. The music will be put to the picturesr, so you don't compose directly to pictures, BUT you know what trailer you write for!!


I really don't want to fight, argue, nor do I want to look angry or whatever. If we would all sit at a table in a pub this would be a normal discussion, so please have that in mind, BUT I really don't get why this generalization takes place plus lots of infos which are simply wrong?!

I hope you understand my questions, concerns!


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## germancomponist (Feb 26, 2010)

Waywyn @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> ......
> 
> I really don't want to fight, argue, nor do I want to look angry or whatever. If we would all sit at a table in a pub this would be a normal discussion, so please have that in mind, BUT I really don't get why this generalization takes place plus lots of infos which are simply wrong?!
> 
> I hope you understand my questions, concerns!



I see this thread not as a fight, on the contrary, it is a good thread. Alex, you know how we all discuss here and how we all are in the real world. 

o-[][]-o and: o-[][]-o


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## Waywyn (Feb 26, 2010)

germancomponist @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> Waywyn @ Fri Feb 26 said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



Gunther, no, maybe you meet everyone from here in the real world, but personally and sadly I didn't yet.

Some I know personally and in the real world/real life, but not mf to whom this message was anyway.


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## choc0thrax (Feb 26, 2010)

Speaking of trailers, I'm psyched to see this film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zLsdBEsr90


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## Jaap (Feb 26, 2010)

I think Lex nailed it with the comment that not everyone can write trailer music. I think the same goes for good catchy commercial pop songs.

I am classical trained composer, have written 4 symphonies, 1 opera and a gazillion other concert pieces (wee bragging here :mrgreen: ).
If I have to choose between writing a full lenght symphony and a really good working piece of trialer music then I would choose the first. Not because I look down on the trailer music, but because I find it extremely difficult. I really admire composers who can produce awesome trailer music. I think it's a different skillset that is simply not suited for everyone.

Furthermore on if trailer music is music. I think it's great music, but it's different music. I love the books of Stephen King and I enjoyed also the Divina Commedia from Dante. Complete different set of books, but as all things they serve their purpose. Simply because some genres are commercially more accepted and mainstream doesn't mean they are per definition "bad".


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## mf (Feb 26, 2010)

choc0thrax @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> Speaking of trailers, I'm psyched to see this film: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zLsdBEsr90


Meh. You go see your sissy videogame.

I'm gonna go see my kickass blockbuster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krOzVRj9z88

And I definitely won't gonna go see this lame, dull, cheap reality show. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SjXa1eTf0c&NR=1


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## mf (Feb 26, 2010)

Waywyn @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> Also regarding my previous questions which you ignored (sory if you didn't on purpose):
> "Trailers, like all ads, are scored with jingles. (which is the reverse of songs being "scored" with videoclips - same commercial principle.)"


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## Waywyn (Feb 27, 2010)

mf @ Sat Feb 27 said:


> Yes, I understand that you love trailers, and I respect your points and admire your commitment. I only think you worry too much, and take everything too personally. My points are not directed at you and are not meant to hurt your feelings. We are adults and we are having here a discussion that YOU started and, in spite of my on-topic silly 'haikus," you and others stubbornly pushed back to this trailer derailment. So there you have it. Enjoy. It's a fine discussion afaiac.



Yes, I obviiously started this discussion, but I don't love trailer music or trailers, ...

*I love music in general!*

If this would have happened to __________
(Put in every style of music you can think of) I would have reacted the same.

Yes, maybe it's a bit personal, maybe I worry to much, I also went emotional on this thread, but hey ... you know how the Na'vi loved their tree?! 
Disregarding what others think of my stuff, maybe I put too much in my music, but on the other side, then I think this might be the reason I have come so far (if you can call it far at all - where is the goal).

The reason I was coming back to your posts was, that there was wrong info about even ad music etc. .. you said this so naturally that one could think you do it every day, but then it contained wrong information.

Imagine I would talk about my last session and say:
Yes, I had the trumpet player playing that part in frescendissimanto while the strings stayed on that Cmin#6 chord


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## lux (Feb 27, 2010)

Btw, Alex, are trailer music different from place to place? I mean, one of those who really put me in this discussion was freshly seeing of a 1 minute Book of Eli trailer that included "all" of the most cliched solutions ever seen on earth. I seem unable to find it again on youtube as perhaps its not an interernational trailer.


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## Waywyn (Feb 27, 2010)

lux @ Sat Feb 27 said:


> Btw, Alex, are trailer music different from place to place? I mean, one of those who really put me in this discussion was freshly seeing of a 1 minute Book of Eli trailer that included "all" of the most cliched solutions ever seen on earth. I seem unable to find it again on youtube as perhaps its not an interernational trailer.



Luca, please think about that for a while and relate it to any other topic on this planet:

Are all man like Arnold Schwarzenegger?
Do all Japanese or German (or whatever nationality) guys kill their women only because you heard of one or several case?
Do all catholic priests rape their altar boys?

I would say no.


Why don't you take like 5 mins of your precious time and visit:
http://trailers.apple.com/

I also took 5 mins of my time and watched the following trailers:

The Joneses - Epic Choirs? Bummbash Percussion Walls? No, just a rock/pop vibe

The A-Team - Epic style? Hell yes!! ... why?
Because it works, would you prefer Stravinsky or Smooth Jazz? I don't think so*

Wallstreet - Epic shit? No, just a Marylin Manson rockstyle

Wolfmen - Epic shit? Yeh, what would you prefer? Kafka-ish depressing 12 tone music?*

The Exploding Girl - Triphop-ish like sentimental pop stuff.

The Ghostwriter - Kinda epic, but also some Danny Elfman stylish character.


As you could I added those little * to some trailers. Why? Yes, different music as the alternatives I described would work? 

But would it be the best way? 
Think about it?


Would you like to have your meat presented with green light in the store?
Would you prefer black or grey sweets?
How about an ice with the taste of Beer?
Would you drive a car with a joystick instead of a steering wheel?
Would you drink light brown-ish looking water?
Would you like to stare at a pink/yellow neon color like TV?


I have to admit, all those things I mentioned sound really interesting, exciting, funny and kinda hip 

... but how many of 100 people would eat, enjoy, drink that stuff? Probably only 10 out of 100? Maybe 10 out of 1000 only?


I think you get my idea 



BTW: Yes, there are different trailers from place to place. I assume you ment countrywise? Yes, but they don't differ that much in terms of used music.


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## Waywyn (Feb 27, 2010)

PS: Sorry, I don't want to edit my post all the time ... I now see what you mean with different places. That you obviously where asking about different countries ... but even if, you purpose was to ask if possibly trailers in germany would use different musical styles than other countries, which could result in missunderstandings. Did I get that right?


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## lux (Feb 27, 2010)

ouch, what a gigantic reply...no, not "Book of Alex", i said "Book or Eli" 

No, i was merely asking whats the reason i cant find a trailer, and if it was related to the fact i saw it on my tv. the music was more or less like the one i mimicked by words a few posts ago.

I think the concept has been fixed now, trailer music is music for a purpose, there are nice and less nice stuff, more original or completely cliched, effective and uneffective/unfitting ones. 

In other words its various.

what about my trailer now?


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## Waywyn (Feb 27, 2010)

lux @ Sat Feb 27 said:


> ouch, what a gigantic reply...no, not "Book of Alex", i said "Book or Eli"
> 
> No, i was merely asking whats the reason i cant find a trailer, and if it was related to the fact i saw it on my tv. the music was more or less like the one i mimicked by words a few posts ago.
> 
> ...



Yeh, aiaiai, as assumed before I totally got your post wrong.
One could blame it to firing wild and that trailer music makes you aggressive, but this time it was a simply language issue. Sorry about that. I leave my post there, don't wanna hide my mistakes ...


Well yeh, as said, it might happen that the music changes from country to country, but not like drastically, like having pure classic on one while you hear boombash in the states. Although I don't know if this NEVER happened before.


So what about your trailer now, hu?
Next time we meet I GIVE YOU TRAILER!!! *swinging his fist* o-[][]-o


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## hbuus (Feb 27, 2010)

Considering where it's being recorded, trailer music does actually sound pretty good:
http://www.motorsporten.dk/Galleri_2005 ... ler-hp.jpg


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## choc0thrax (Feb 27, 2010)

Waywyn @ Sat Feb 27 said:


> Do all catholic priests rape their altar boys?



Possibly.


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## _taylor (Feb 27, 2010)

Blame the editors, not the composer. :evil: 


Lux, maybe you can find it here. http://www.traileraddict.com/tags/the-book-of-eli


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## germancomponist (Feb 27, 2010)

Waywyn @ Fri Feb 26 said:


> Gunther, no, maybe you meet everyone from here in the real world... .









Hope they are all on this photo :mrgreen:


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