# Geniuses in music



## hbuus (Feb 22, 2010)

In another thread I noticed someone saying Michael Jackson was a genius.
That got me speculating: How do you define a genius in a creative genre such as music?

Examples:

- Jean Michel Jarre was a pioneer in terms of writing music with the use of synthesizers. Does that make him a genius?

- The Beatles...were they (Lennon/McCartney) geniuses? The band had a fundamental impact on (light) rock music, didn't they?

- Kurt Cobain from Nirvana. He invented a whole new genre, grunge.

Personally I think it is tricky to determine who is a genius and who is not!
However maybe a guideline could be to look at the story of good old Mozart, who at a very young age showed incredible potential, and who succeeded in using his talent to create great music.

What do you think? Who would you call a genius and why?

Best,
Henrik


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## mjc (Feb 22, 2010)

It's definitely a tricky subject...

It's a term that tends to get thrown around. It's seems to becoming more of a slang and is losing it's impact and meaning.

I'm a big Michael Jackson fan...great songs, singer, performer, arrangements and production; though I'm willing to credit much of the 'genius' to his early producer/arranger Quincy Jones. Then again who knows what goes on behind the scenes unless you were there during the moment of creation. Whatever it was they seemed to be a great team.

Maybe it's that a lot of artists have 'moments of genius' and thrive on those brief, rare moments...where as a 'pure genius' would have it come on a regular basis?? Or maybe it's the impact those brief moments make on the world at that time?? OK I'm getting silly now  ...but definitely something that I think about


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## dinerdog (Feb 22, 2010)

Frank Zappa and Stevie Wonder always come to mind. : >


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## hbuus (Feb 22, 2010)

ajcmuso, good points, and you are not being silly at all 

Think about this also: What existing music will people be listening to many years from now (50+)?
Will Michael Jackson's music pass the test of time? And what about Frank Zappa's, Stevie Wonders etc.?

I'd be hard pushed to state any names, apart from classical music which has already proved itself in the long term.

It's certainly tricky!


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## Waywyn (Feb 22, 2010)

Meshuggah!


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## Dynamitec (Feb 22, 2010)

Yeah, especially interesting for drummers @ Waywyn! Totally crazy.

I'll add Dream Theater to the list.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 22, 2010)

Eno, Peter Gabriel, Aphex Twin, Jack White, Bob Marley, Quincy Jones, Radiohead, Trent Reznor, Joni Mitchell.

+ Zappa and Wonder, already mentioned.


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## dinerdog (Feb 22, 2010)

+1 Joni Mitchell

and I'll add Weather Report.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 22, 2010)

Oh, I was just thinking Pop music. If you want to include jazz, for eg, the list would then be huge!! :wink:


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## bigdog (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm sure some would say Vanilla Ice......


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 22, 2010)

So you guys are basing how the fan base reacts to a given artist, and calling them geniuses?

You do realize that kind of makes Zimmer a genius as well.


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## Dynamitec (Feb 22, 2010)

I would call Hans Zimmer a genius. His scores touches a lot of non musicians and he reaches all age groups with them. This makes him very effective at what he is doing. And the position he reached in the business could make him a genius in they eyes of others. Just like John Williams, Howard Shore and yes, James Horner as well and all other composers who made it to the top.

To me statements like "You do realize that kind of makes Zimemr a genius as well" sound like the old discussion here on VI that only the classical trained composers are the real composers who know what they are doing and Zimmer is only the average Joe who had some luck.

I think calling someone a (musical) genius is very subjective and can't be measured. There is no genius scale. 
In the first post Kurt Cobain is listed. Who is the better musician? Hans Zimmer or Kurt Cobain? Frank Zappa or John Williams? The Beatles vs Rollingstones? Is Mick Jagger more genius than John Lenon? ~o)

@Lux: who is more genius John Petrucci or Billy Gibbons? (Clearly, John Petrucci IMO :evil


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## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

There is only one Genius - Ray Charles.

(ok - Stevie Wonder comes very close. And Michael Jackson is family.)


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## germancomponist (Feb 22, 2010)

Steve Lukather &, hm, ah yes, Hans Zimmer. 

@ Dynamitec: Good post!


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## artsoundz (Feb 22, 2010)

Prince comes to mind for pop

Jazz-Parker,Coltrane,Dolphy,Jarret, etc etc.


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## dinerdog (Feb 22, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius

A genius is a person, a body of work, or a singular achievement of surpassing excellence. More than just originality, creativity, or intelligence, genius is associated with achievement of insight which has transformational power. A work of genius fundamentally alters the expectations of its audience. Although difficult to quantify, genius is to a level of aptitude, capability, or achievement which exceeds even that of most other exceptional contemporaries in the same field.

By this definition almost everyone listed qualifies. I think our only debate here is who's your 'favorite' genius. : >


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## Dave Connor (Feb 22, 2010)

Lennon McCartney, no doubt.

Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Bob Dylan Three seminal song writers. (In fact William "Smokey" Robinson and the Lamont/Dozier team could go in here as well.) Buddy Holly had genius no question about that.

Ray Charles? I certainly understand that submission: he is a major artist and influence on all of Rock and beyond.

Armstrong, Parker, Davis, Coltrane, Evans.

Sinatra, Aretha Franklin

Goldsmith, Alex North,


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## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

Dave Connor @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Ray Charles? I certainly understand that submission: he is a major artist and influence on all of Rock and beyond.


Man, Ray Charles is THE Genius -


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## dcoscina (Feb 22, 2010)

Of film score composers, I only would reserve the title of "genius" to Bernard Herrmann. Many others were smart, intelligent creative minds but Herrmann diverged from the norm and gave us something very different. I like Alex North a lot and Goldsmith insofar as genius is concerned but Jerry's 15 minutes of genius started at Planet of the Apes and ended with Alien as far as I'm concerned. His '80s output was spotty (some great, like First Blood though).

Williams is a brilliant musician and composer, very talented, and a superb technician. But I wouldn't call him a genius. And I certainly wouldn't classify anyone who rose to popularity in film scoring in the past two decades as genius, partly because the system won't allow for it, partly because there are very few brilliant musicians AND composers left in that field. And I'm not elaborating so before those of you start whining, don't. 

Of classical musicians, Stravinsky and Bartok in the 20th century would be my picks. Xenakis was also a pioneer but I don't ascribe the term genius to him. Zappa, well, I could actually agree with that. His mind was on another plain. As for jazz, Coltrane and Parker. Maybe Evans. No, I take that back. Duke Ellington- yeah. Gershwin- yeah. 

I guess my criteria for genius is someone who is not only a superb technician at one's craft, but one who applies a creative divergence from the norm to create a new path, refining their discipline at the same time. 

That;s how I look at it.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 22, 2010)

Far be it from me to deny Ray entrance into anywhere. He really is, The Man. People don't talk enough about his playing. His early Jazz playing on record with guys like David (Fathead) Newman is just exquisite. His R+B playing seminal.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 22, 2010)

DC, A friend of mine asked Miles who the best musician he ever worked with was and he immediately said Bill Evans. Miles played with everyone and that's where he came down. Evans is the quintessential Jazz pianist who really brought the art to it's heights.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 22, 2010)

I also think it's fair to call Miles a genius, no?

He's still the most amazing musician I've ever seen.


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## Dave Connor (Feb 22, 2010)

Nick Batzdorf @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> I also think it's fair to call Miles a genius, no?
> 
> He's still the most amazing musician I've ever seen.



Oh yeah, he's in the no debate column. The most important Jazz figure in the second half of the 20th century.


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## George Caplan (Feb 22, 2010)

jean sibelius/js bach/camille saints saens


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## The_Dark_Knight (Feb 22, 2010)

I think the genius I'm inspired by are the ones I find most contagious. You want to be around them, and hear more from them because not only is their command of a subject/topic so strong and radiant but some of it spills over into your mind. So in music I listen to about the same 5-6 entities and they seem to cover a lot of ground.

Michael Jackson
Trevor Horn
Prokofieff/Chopin/Liszt/Scriabin/Wagner/Mozart/Bach/Beethoven/Tchaichovsky/Seans
Zimmer/Williams/Revell/Herman/

But I'm also influenced musically by non-musical geniuses such as:
Nikola Tesla
Buckminster Fuller
Thomas Edison
Steve Jobs
Benjamin Franklin
Robert Kiyosaki (predicted the economic collapse)
Andrew Groove
Steve Wozniak
Karl Steinberg


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## dcoscina (Feb 22, 2010)

Dave, yeah, I will agree. Miles was also pretty amazing. To be able to do what he did in realtime was astonishing. I really find it hard to attribute the "genius" tag to a lot of popular music makers. I just don't see most of them operating on a level that I deem "touched by the hand of God" in terms of overall awesomeness.


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## bryla (Feb 22, 2010)

Herbie Hancock
Dizzy Gillespie


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## Dave Connor (Feb 22, 2010)

I suppose genius is a relative term in it's use these days. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Da Vinci, Michelangelo: those are real geniuses.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 22, 2010)

Charles Mingus, Charlie Parker, Ornette Coleman, Sun Ra, Allan Holdsworth, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, the Funk Brothers, David Bowie.


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## nikolas (Feb 22, 2010)

Just some random thoughts of the subject at hand.

I think that genious is:
a. something reffering to a specific quality of a person, not the person as a whole. 
b. Defined by actions (and thinking) out of the box, out of the ordinary.

Those very few who manage to do something "new", but also find a way to attach it to society (it's non existant really as an idea). 

Just creating something new for the shake of it, is not a sign of genious really. If one can find a use today, then... we're talking.

Another quality that I find important is the ability to change over time (decades perhaps). I mean look at the great masters and how they've evolved. Early Beethoven and Mozart have little to do with late ones. Same for Stravinsky and even Prokofiev! Picasso.

Finding the receipe for success and hanging on to it, doesn't seem as a sign of genious.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 22, 2010)

It's very hard to decide who's a musical genius and who isn't, I think. What about performers like Yefim Bronfman or Daniel Barenboim? Actually there aren't very many performers like them - they're both ridiculously amazing.

What about Stevie Wonder? Every song on his albums in the 70s is a classic, plus he plays his ass off. I saw him noodling on a keyboard at a NAMM show, tossing off a reharmonized version of Giant Steps like it was a nursery rhyme.

That's also what Bill Evans did, actually.

To me genius has many facets. Part of Miles' genius was the incredible power he had as a personality...which I guess is an argument against what Niklas is saying.


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## mf (Feb 22, 2010)

I agree with your disagreement. Basically Nikolas was saying that a genius is an ass hole:



nikolas @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> the person as a whole.


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## Nick Batzdorf (Feb 22, 2010)

> thinking out of the box, out of the ordinary



By the way, "thinking outside the box" is an expression for noncreative people.


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## david robinson (Feb 22, 2010)

all composers are genius'.
it's just that their audiences are not.
jr.


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## dcoscina (Feb 22, 2010)

Oh Bob Moog and Ray Kurzweil are also genius'.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 23, 2010)

Wendy Carlos, Stockhausen, John Zorn, Thomas Dolby, Kraftwerk, Takemitsu, Xenakis, Nicolas Slonimsky, François Bayle, R Murray Schafer, Pauline Oliveros, Meredith Monk, Björk.


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## madbulk (Feb 23, 2010)

Hard to quantify certainly, but I know it when I see it. And I see it in most but not all the names you guys do. I think we've got a pretty good list going. If you don't care for a particular genre, then you might not be qualified to say. So for example, if you're thinking Stevie Wonder isn't a genius, but you don't like popular music, bow out.
That said, I'm sorry, Zimmer is not quite a genius as a composer nor movie scorer. He's just not. And I love his work. Love it. But...
Not every body gets into the hall of fame. Nice career though.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 23, 2010)

> I like Alex North a lot and Goldsmith insofar as genius is concerned but Jerry's 15 minutes of genius started at Planet of the Apes and ended with Alien as far as I'm concerned. His '80s output was spotty (some great, like First Blood though).



All the Star Trek movies he did were also great scores too. Especially First Contact.

As far as Zimmer, like it or not but by the definition we've been going by, he is. Zimmer really jump started the pop based/power scores we hear in a lot of films today. Not to say he was the pioneer of it, but he definitely kept that ball rolling.


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## artsoundz (Feb 23, 2010)

nikolas @ Mon Feb 22 said:


> Just some random thoughts of the subject at hand.
> 
> I think that genious is:
> a. something reffering to a specific quality of a person, not the person as a whole.
> ...



Right-Another reason for Miles being a genius-he never stopped growing. 

I think the musicians that lead a double life, like Charles Ives (responsible for much of the the modern insurance industry), George Russel (A pharmacist who wrote The Lydian Chromatic concept)-these guys are impressive as hell.


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## C M Dess (Feb 23, 2010)

BT / Diego Stacco
Wendy and Lisa
Rick Rubin
Trevor Horn
Phil Collins
Spector
Peter Gabriel
Brian Eno
Clint Mansell
Rage Against the Machine
Nick Phoenix
Graeme Revell
Hendrix
Quincy
Jeff Buckley
The Beatles
Garth Brooks
Tina Turner
Aretha Franklin
Diana Ross
Bee Gees
Hawkwind
Kyuss
Kraftwerk
Wakemen
Genesis
MJ
Scott Joplin
Whitney Houston
Prince
Teddy Rilley
Hanz Zimmer
John Williams
The Prodigy
Paul Simon
Mars Lasar
Atli Orvarsson
Erik Mongrain
Led Zeppelin 
Bernard Herman
Danny Elfman

+
All the classical composers. All the other tv composers. All the other film composers. Everyone from the 70ies.


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Feb 23, 2010)

Eric Persing!!! =o =o =o


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## mf (Feb 23, 2010)

everybody I like


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 23, 2010)

When it comes to fusion, I'd say Michael Brecker...rest in peace.


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## nadeama (Feb 23, 2010)

André Rieu, Andrea Boccelli, Richard Clayderman, Helmut Lotti.


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## Christian Marcussen (Feb 23, 2010)

nadeama @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> André Rieu, Andrea Boccelli, Richard Clayderman, Helmut Lotti.



... and Susan Boyle no doubt...


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## mjc (Feb 24, 2010)

Vanilla Ice, Michael Bolton, Kenny G, Hilary Duff


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## NYC Composer (Feb 24, 2010)

I loved everything Miles did in his career up til Bitch's Brew. I hated everything after. Anyone who loved 'Tutu', for example, well, we don't see eye to eye. On the other hand, I'll never stop listening to Kinda Blue, Ballads and Blues, Relaxing with Miles ( SUCH a great, underrated collection of tight little arrangements of classics), Steamin', etc etc.

But it's funny how the complexity of genius often leads people down weird life paths. I read Miles' autobiography, in which he was brutally honest. It was the first autobiography I'd ever read where the author actually made me despise him. It felt pretty odd. 

Anyway, great topic. For me, Miles, Bird, Bill and Gil Evans, Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn, Frank Sinatra because he could phrase like no singer I've heard( throw in Riddle and Nestico and and and) Nina Simone,Nat King Cole, Marvin Gaye, Sam Cooke,Stevie Wonder, Joni Mitchell, Beatles, Kurt Cobain, Led Zep, Keith Emerson only for Tarkus, Dylan when he didn't sing,The Stones 'cause they were such underrated writers,Bob Marley because he said it and felt it and sang it and made you feel it,Pink Floyd cause they broke ground, Brian Wilson because he had the best ear for pitch and ringing harmony of anyone I've heard ,Donald Fagen because who was ever so cool and erudite and jazzy funky?( listen to his solo album, The Nightfly, genius) and and and...jeez. Hard list to end.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 24, 2010)

+1 for Dylan

And this is going to make people cringe, but I'd say Gaga too. Why? Because she successfully mixed pop with a vegas/burlesque style to it. To me that's an interesting combination. Plus she has quite a voice on her.


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## madbulk (Feb 24, 2010)

Seriously people, geniuses? These people are geniuses? I don't begrudge Gaga anything -- shoulda gotten a grammy and all, but jeez.


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## Nathan Allen Pinard (Feb 24, 2010)

madbulk @ Wed Feb 24 said:


> Seriously people, geniuses? These people are geniuses? I don't begrudge Gaga anything -- shoulda gotten a grammy and all, but jeez.



Like I said. We're basically calling people the masses flock to as geniuses.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 24, 2010)

Like whatever makes something 'good', what defines 'genius' is far too subjective to argue about, except with your best buds over beers. Still, it's interesting to read others' opinions.

Kenny G forever! ( not really)


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