# Fallen Angel (Tina Guo, VOXOS, CinePerc, Personal Samples)



## Rodney Money (Feb 24, 2017)

I have been working on my trumpet concerto for some time now for a client. The piece must be for trumpet alone with "recorded accompaniment," so I have been working on ambiences, new instruments, and sound design. This is the last 6 minutes of the 3rd movement which is not the finale but still 15 minutes long. The cello part will be the trumpet part with some additions.

Here's just the accompaniment track which I am mainly concerned about:


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## mc_deli (Feb 24, 2017)

What's the cello?


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## Rodney Money (Feb 24, 2017)

mc_deli said:


> What's the cello?


Tina Guo. I put it in there to give y'all an idea of how it will fit together.


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## Architekton (Feb 24, 2017)

This sounds great, really...love the atmosphere.


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## SymphonicSamples (Feb 24, 2017)

Hey Rodney lovely piece and atmosphere , would love to hear the final version with Trumpet when finished


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## Rodney Money (Feb 24, 2017)

SymphonicSamples said:


> Hey Rodney lovely piece and atmosphere , would love to hear the final version with Trumpet when finished


Thank you so much for listening and commenting! Will do, my friend. Hopefully one day soon I will finish this piece, and when my client performs it I will show it to everyone. It's going to be around 6 or 7 movements where some movements are just a minute long while others like the 3rd will be around 15.


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 25, 2017)

The third movement? Usually in a concerto there are three movements, so is this the finale of the concerto?

The first thought I had while listening is the high quality of the mix. I know very little about mixing and engineering, so I may not be the best judge, but it certainly sounded to me as if it could have been from a movie. The choir samples sound great. The storm sound is very realistic. Love the bells. At first I wondered why use a cello as a stand-in for a trumpet? However, after listening, I am guessing you want the trumpet soloist to assimilate the emotionalism and beautiful tone of the cello into the trumpet performance. Easier to do I think for a cornet or flugelhorn than a trumpet, so it will certainly be a challenge for the soloist. (It might be an interesting possibility to require the soloist to switch off to flugel. It would be challenging, some soloists would balk at it. But it would be interesting.)

As you know, I have a more traditional, late romantic aesthetic, so my further comments may not be at all appropriate, or wanted. Please ignore me if this is not helpful. The soloist has to be remarkably patient to wait 2 minutes for their entry, then stand silently for the final minute, especially since everyone will just be listening to an audio track. In a classical era concerto the orchestral introduction, and usual orchestral conclusion, would give the audience a short opportunity to focus on the orchestra and the music (melodies and harmonies) itself prior to the entry of the soloist. Are there any similar comparisons here? A concerto MUST remain focused on the star, the soloist, before any other consideration.

There does not seem to be any emotional arc to the piece. No climactic moment followed by catharsis. While ambient music is popular for some film-music and some styles of art-music, I believe you are missing an opportunity. I sense that in your final minute as the sounds fade away, you were in fact searching for that catharsis, but instead the impression is that the music just gets tired and drifts off to sleep. The ending could work, if the soloist had reached a climactic moment just previously.

There is also a cognitive dissonance set up by the storm sounds in contrast with the very slow, relaxed and even somnambulant solo line. While some people find rain soothing and restful, most people are likely to associate thunder and lightening with conflict and even terror. This cognitive dissonance could very well be your exact intention, and perhaps you intended for the conflicting emotions to remain unresolved? Perhaps you intended to contrast the beauty and perfection of an angel created by God with the terror and conflict created by the falling away of that angel from God's grace. All of that works to a certain extent, and is very intelligently done if that was your intention.

However, you have 6 minutes at your disposal, and you could go one step further to make clear the incredible tragedy of a mighty and wonderfully made angel falling away from God. Reverting at least partially to more traditional methods of musical communication (harmony, rhythm, tessitura, especially harmony) to express the climactic tradgedy, would then make the return to a more ambient style of the conclusion much more effective and provide some needed variety to the piece.

Of course these comments involve aesthetics, and every artist must be true to their own aesthetic sensibilities. It remains an interesting piece exactly as written.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 25, 2017)

Architekton said:


> This sounds great, really...love the atmosphere.


Thank ya, my friend. I truly appreciate you stopping by and listening.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 26, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> The third movement? Usually in a concerto there are three movements, so is this the finale of the concerto?
> 
> The first thought I had while listening is the high quality of the mix. I know very little about mixing and engineering, so I may not be the best judge, but it certainly sounded to me as if it could have been from a movie. The choir samples sound great. The storm sound is very realistic. Love the bells. At first I wondered why use a cello as a stand-in for a trumpet? However, after listening, I am guessing you want the trumpet soloist to assimilate the emotionalism and beautiful tone of the cello into the trumpet performance. Easier to do I think for a cornet or flugelhorn than a trumpet, so it will certainly be a challenge for the soloist. (It might be an interesting possibility to require the soloist to switch off to flugel. It would be challenging, some soloists would balk at it. But it would be interesting.)
> 
> ...


This is not the finale and not even the entire 3rd movement. In fact this is just the last 6 minutes of the 3rd movement. So far the 3rd movement is the longest clocking in around 15 minutes with 2 major sections dividing the 3rd in half. The first half could be called "Fallen Heroes" which deals with the "real," where the second half "Fallen Angels" deals with the "ethereal" on what "man" could've been if it wasn't for corruption, pride, selfishness, and other sins. This movement is one mood, pure depression, with the climax happening in the first half. The rain was purposefully mixed in different ways to depict certain moods. In "Fallen Heroes" the rain sounds more real like a thunderstorm in a city where the rain mixed in "Fallen Angels" is a mix purposefully sounding brooding and even frightening for the contrast of beautiful creation and corruption. This rain's mixed as though you are inside a cathedral while rain is hitting a window near you. You can hear how it is echoing and reverberating throughout the halls more than rain that is more in your face. If I did not mix the rain hitting the window, the remixed cathedral rain would be endangered of sounding more like white noise than actual rain, but the reverberating mix gives the rain a slight ethereal spiritual feel, at least that was my hope.

As I do respect the past and the composers that have come before me I must unfortunately redraw from "what should be" and venture into the realm of "what could be." This concerto will now have at least 5 and possibly even a 7 unlike the traditional 3. Also, in traditional concertos where the soloist comes first, the music must come first instead. I've never personally cared for most of the trumpet solo repertoire focused mostly on showing technical achievement than musical expression, so my goal for this concerto was for the trumpet soloist to have the opportunity to bare his heart and soul hopefully leaving it all on stage. At least that is the ultimate goal. A trumpet can truly be expressive, but it is hardly giving a true chance. This part of the third movement, "Fallen Angels" must be scored for trumpet and not flugelhorn or cornet. The top range of s concert Bb must be full, rich, and expressive where a flugelhorn would sound too strained and muffled, and cornet would lack the power. On a side note, trumpet players don't mind switching instruments even in the same piece, and most trumpet players live for these moments where they get to be truly expressive highlighting their tone. (Good luck finding that brass sound in samples.)

Concerning the 2 minute wait, in Vivaldi's trumpet concerto for 2 trumpets depending on the performance the trumpets have to wait more than a minute to a minute and a half while the strings perform the 2nd movement Largo section. Also the trumpet player has already played almost 7 minutes of the 3rd movement needing a break. I once wrote a choir piece with a cello intro that lasted more than a minute. Someone asked me, "What is the choir and audience supposed to do for an entire minute?" My response was, "If it's beautiful enough they will listen to it." Years later that piece was then featured on NPR's "All Things Considered." This movement will be performed in darkness, and the shock of hearing a female's voice and choir for the first time with the words "Rule me but don't even touch me," and "Binding with briars all my joys and desires" should hopefully be enough to keep both the soloist and the audience's attention. In the final minute or so the trumpet player is occupied walking off stage to perform the next movement "Innocence Lost" as backstage trumpet playing from the distance as the lights fade back on.

The climax of the movement happened in the earlier section "Fallen Heroes" with the trumpet player screaming on a high concert C at fff. This movement does not give the answers but is simply a movement of sadness, grief, asking why, and even touches of depression. That's why this movement ends in wondering dissonance unable to resolve. The finale will truly resolve leaving the audience satisfied. My trumpet soloist wanted, "Optimistic hope fading in the distance giving calm to the storm."

The thunderstorm does represent conflict and terror associated with ones we lost and losing even oneself to pain. This entire 15 minute movement is as one grieving privately asking, "Why?" The soloist is the voice in the darkness.

I have provide the score to some of the other movements so that you might find some answers or hopefully even ask more wonderful questions. I love talking about music, and this helps me sort everything out especially concerning goals. I want the music to cone first, not a piece to showcase the trumpet. I will be adding this part of the 3rd movement in the next couple of weeks.

I will share something personal with all of you, I am scared to death about finishing this piece. I don't know if I can truly do it. It's the finale that is giving me doubts. You see, this piece is written to be performed on the concert stage with recorded accompaniment. I can't just write a finale for trumpet soloist and sampled orchestra. All of the sounds must be close to difficult to actually a live performance. This has been my ultimate struggle with writing this piece. If it was for trumpet and piano it would be done, trumpet and orchestra it would be done alla Mahler's Resurrection Symphony, but trumpet with recording still working on it. The next movement will be more harmonic than ambient, because it will feature accompaniment performed mostly with music box. Since a music box would be next to impossible to accompany a trumpet in the real world I can get away with it, but the finale is what I'm truly struggling with. So if anyone has any ideas please fill free to offer, because I am in dire need of help and advice. Score so far: https://app.box.com/s/pputgf3aoxy98n92h30xze9kwou1j1ox


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## Paul T McGraw (Feb 27, 2017)

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts about this piece. I have no advice at this moment regarding the finale, but if something that fits your goals occurs to me, I will certainly share it.

I would enjoy hearing the piece for cello and choir.


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## Rodney Money (Feb 28, 2017)

Paul T McGraw said:


> Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts about this piece. I have no advice at this moment regarding the finale, but if something that fits your goals occurs to me, I will certainly share it.
> 
> I would enjoy hearing the piece for cello and choir.


My pleasure, the most painful thing for me was that I had to type that on my phone, lol, but I am back on my computer now. If you or anyone else has anything to share please feel free to. It would greatly help me out.


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## yengcomposer (Mar 11, 2017)

Beautiful! Love the sound of the rain, I can really hear it pouring down right in front of me.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 12, 2017)

yengcomposer said:


> Beautiful! Love the sound of the rain, I can really hear it pouring down right in front of me.


Ah, thank you so much! If you like rain tracks, check out this one that I did resembling a rain storm in the city:


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## ghostnote (Mar 17, 2017)

Very cool Rodney! Very nice mix.


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## jjmmuir (Mar 17, 2017)

Immersive and lush Rodney. Love it. The delay/reverb that slaps back at :012 could maybe be softened...it put me a room for a moment not in the sound/dreamscape that follows.


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## zacnelson (Mar 17, 2017)

I really like the rain sounds, I always like rain sounds, I wish it was in everything 

The cello is gorgeous!


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## dannymc (Mar 18, 2017)

love this Rodney. great atmosphere to the piece. those choirs sound lush. i presume that's real choir in the intro? whats the cineperc doing in the track i cant hear any?

Danny


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## Rodney Money (Mar 18, 2017)

dannymc said:


> love this Rodney. great atmosphere to the piece. those choirs sound lush. i presume that's real choir in the intro? whats the cineperc doing in the track i cant hear any?
> 
> Danny


Danny! Thank you so much for stopping by! It means a lot, my friend. It's a real choir at the beginning and the end. Plus concerning the rest of the choirs in the track, would you believe the "accompanying choir" singing, "And binding with briars all my joys and desires" is real, but the melodic parts are VOXOS. You can tell with the oo's and ah's. Cineperc is in there but very sparse and in the background. I always wanted to blend suspended cymbal and rain, so you can here that in the first half of the track. Then, you can here Cineperc Pro's Low Chimes and Core's tone chimes. Then there are some bass drum effects added to the thunder to add some weight. My most "proud" Cineperc moment is near the end with the loudest thunder clap. I mixed a tone chime and a bass drum rim hit, on the black keys of the midi controller, to try to emphasize the crack.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 18, 2017)

ghostnote said:


> Very cool Rodney! Very nice mix.


Thank ya, my friend. I am trying.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 18, 2017)

jjmmuir said:


> Immersive and lush Rodney. Love it. The delay/reverb that slaps back at :012 could maybe be softened...it put me a room for a moment not in the sound/dreamscape that follows.


Immersive and lush! That's what I always go for. Thank ya so much for your words, and thank you for your keen ears. I will go back and see what I can do. Do you mean at 12 seconds where you hear it?


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## SagZodiac (Mar 18, 2017)

Amazing!


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## Rodney Money (Mar 18, 2017)

zacnelson said:


> I really like the rain sounds, I always like rain sounds, I wish it was in everything
> 
> The cello is gorgeous!


I blame Tina Guo for that sound! I just hit record and played her in, lol. I had to mix 3 different rain storms to get that sound including one that sounds like a rain storm outside a cathedral. This large 30+ minute work contains different type of ambiences including a snow storm in the 1st movement.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 18, 2017)

SagZodiac said:


> Amazing!


You are way too nice my friend! Thank you for listening and commenting.


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## jjmmuir (Mar 18, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Immersive and lush! That's what I always go for. Thank ya so much for your words, and thank you for your keen ears. I will go back and see what I can do. Do you mean at 12 seconds where you hear it?


Yes, it's a strong 'd' consonant that catches the reverb/delay...


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## Rodney Money (Mar 18, 2017)

jjmmuir said:


> Yes, it's a strong 'd' consonant that catches the reverb/delay...


Thank you for the more detailed info. I definitely hear it also.


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## Chris D (Mar 20, 2017)

This is awesome, LOVE the Cineperc Chimes/ bells. The live choir adds soo much what a beautiful voice. More of a personal preference thing but I'd have the Cello a touch higher in the mix. Really great mood you've captured.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 20, 2017)

dannymc said:


> love this Rodney. great atmosphere to the piece. those choirs sound lush. i presume that's real choir in the intro? whats the cineperc doing in the track i cant hear any?
> 
> Danny


Danny, a good example of what CinePerc is doing "in the background" of this track is at :24 with the bass drum rub that seems to follow the voice through her downward phrase. This piece is littered with moments like that but barely noticeable. And also at the end of that phrase is the tail of a barely audible tamtam hit in which I took out the start or attack of the note to connect the solo to the tutti choir.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 20, 2017)

Chris D said:


> This is awesome, LOVE the Cineperc Chimes/ bells. The live choir adds soo much what a beautiful voice. More of a personal preference thing but I'd have the Cello a touch higher in the mix. Really great mood you've captured.


You are truly too nice Chris. Thank you so much for both listening and commenting. It means a lot also. Would you believe I originally had another version with the cello louder and more up front in the track? But then I did the composer mistake of fallen in love with the "background" instead of the "foreground." Thank you for your keen ears. That was one of my concerns when I posted it.

I don't have any other percussion libraries besides CinePerc, even though I have thought about getting either Orchestral Tool's Berlin Percussion or Cinematic Studio Percussion when it comes out, but it seems as though to serve me well over this short time with it, and I tend to use it a lot even if it is for subtle ambient textures. I need to upgrade it though. I only have the original Core, Pro, and Epic, and I am desperately needing that Aux. My music seems to call for those unusual timbres here lately. This work which will be about 30 minutes long seems to have a lot of bells/ chimes in it I have noticed. I am wondering if it subconsciously represents spirituality or something mystical like that? I'm not quite sure myself.


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## Chris D (Mar 20, 2017)

That voice just shines through, brings so much of the track to life, it feels ethereal and spiritual to me, with the rain and the chimes it makes me want to meditate. 

Belive it or not I find a lot of use for kontakts factory library, especially the celesta which can add a lot of width to a mix with little processing, i'm sure there are other patches that would really shine with music like this. Good job!!


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## Rodney Money (Mar 20, 2017)

Chris D said:


> That voice just shines through, brings so much of the track to life, it feels ethereal and spiritual to me, with the rain and the chimes it makes me want to meditate.
> 
> Belive it or not I find a lot of use for kontakts factory library, especially the celesta which can add a lot of width to a mix with little processing, i'm sure there are other patches that would really shine with music like this. Good job!!


Thank ya, again! Which voice exactly, my friend? The one at the beginning and end or another one? Thank you for mentioning the Kontakt Factory Libraries. Would you believe I have the discs but haven't even loaded them onto my hard drive(s)? I might have to now.

Speaking of mediation, have you heard this track of mine?


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## Chris D (Mar 20, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Thank ya, again! Which voice exactly, my friend? The one at the beginning and end or another one? Thank you for mentioning the Kontakt Factory Libraries. Would you believe I have the discs but haven't even loaded them onto my hard drive(s)? I might have to now.
> 
> Speaking of mediation, have you heard this track of mine?



Yeh your friend! Gorgeous voice! Combining her with voxos as a choir piece would be so nice. Definitely go for kontakt, its so underrated!


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## novaburst (Mar 20, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> I have been working on my trumpet concerto for some time now for a client. The piece must be for trumpet alone with "recorded accompaniment," so I have been working on ambiences, new instruments, and sound design. This is the last 6 minutes of the 3rd movement which is not the finale but still 15 minutes long. The cello part will be the trumpet part with some additions.
> 
> Here's just the accompaniment track which I am mainly concerned about:



Very moving piece @Rodney Money sound effects helped to create the disire atmosphere, wish i could hear the trumpet version now as already my heart has fallen for the cello, it seems to fit the title and sadness, and emotional pain the fallen angel is going through the cello seems to moan and groan and is very fitting.

But can't wait to hear what effect the trumpet will have in this sad event.


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## calebfaith (Mar 20, 2017)

Beautiful


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## Rodney Money (Mar 21, 2017)

calebfaith said:


> Beautiful


I appreciate that! Thank you.


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## ghobii (Mar 21, 2017)

Very nice! The only things that pulled me out of the moment were some of the thunder claps - I think some more low end could round them out and make them feel less "brittle". And the drops on the pane didn't seem quite right, they're too "clicky" sounding. In the city thunderstorm you posted, they blend in better as that rain has a more percussive feel to it. Maybe all it would take, would be to add a transient shaper to the drops and slightly soften the attack? But over all, great sounding piece!


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## Rodney Money (Mar 21, 2017)

ghobii said:


> Very nice! The only things that pulled me out of the moment were some of the thunder claps - I think some more low end could round them out and make them feel less "brittle". And the drops on the pane didn't seem quite right, they're too "clicky" sounding. In the city thunderstorm you posted, they blend in better as that rain has a more percussive feel to it. Maybe all it would take, would be to add a transient shaper to the drops and slightly soften the attack? But over all, great sounding piece!


Awesome advice, my friend. I am using Cubase, but I am going to have to look up transient shaper. It would be a first for me. One of the reasons this rain sounds different from the other rain track is because all of the low rumbles and majority of the rain is my attempt at making it sound as though someone is in a church and the rain is outside reverberating throughout the halls, but they are near a window at the same time. The other rain track is from a mostly outside point of view with the window open. Thank you again. More info about using a transient shaper would be great.


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## Rodney Money (Mar 21, 2017)

ghobii said:


> Very nice! The only things that pulled me out of the moment were some of the thunder claps - I think some more low end could round them out and make them feel less "brittle". And the drops on the pane didn't seem quite right, they're too "clicky" sounding. In the city thunderstorm you posted, they blend in better as that rain has a more percussive feel to it. Maybe all it would take, would be to add a transient shaper to the drops and slightly soften the attack? But over all, great sounding piece!


Just saw in Cubase that it's a multiband envelope shaper.


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## ghobii (Mar 22, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Just saw in Cubase that it's a multiband envelope shaper.


Yeah, the envelope shaper should do the trick. You could experiment with EQ as well. If you remove a little bit of the high end of the drops, they won't sound as close, and should have a similar effect as shaping the envelope in this case.

The rain sound in the church is definitely a tricky one. As you mentioned, the reverb wants to just turn it into white noise. Strangely, this showed up in my inbox today - it's a collection of indoor rain ambiences. Only $20, so it might be worth checking out. https://www.asoundeffect.com/sound-...146101757&mc_cid=68b34be135&mc_eid=c2cc43024a


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## Rodney Money (Mar 24, 2017)

ghobii said:


> Yeah, the envelope shaper should do the trick. You could experiment with EQ as well. If you remove a little bit of the high end of the drops, they won't sound as close, and should have a similar effect as shaping the envelope in this case.
> 
> The rain sound in the church is definitely a tricky one. As you mentioned, the reverb wants to just turn it into white noise. Strangely, this showed up in my inbox today - it's a collection of indoor rain ambiences. Only $20, so it might be worth checking out. https://www.asoundeffect.com/sound-...146101757&mc_cid=68b34be135&mc_eid=c2cc43024a


Ah man, why did you show me that link? Now I am going to spend countless time listening to every sound effect! Thank you so much.


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## ghobii (Mar 24, 2017)

Rodney Money said:


> Ah man, why did you show me that link? Now I am going to spend countless time listening to every sound effect! Thank you so much.


 Let us know if you find anything good!


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## Rodney Money (Mar 30, 2017)

ghobii said:


> Let us know if you find anything good!


Will do!


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