# Breath Controller Recommendations ?



## muziksculp (Nov 26, 2016)

Hi,

I recently purchased the TEControl Breath Controller 2 (their latest model), which responds to breath, nod, tilt, and bite controls. 

http://tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-bite-controller-2

But, I find the amount of air I need to blow into the mouthpiece is very demanding, which gets pretty tiring in a few minutes, with lots of resistance while blowing. I tried to adjust the pressure valve, but that caused a major reduction to the sensitivity of the device. I also tried to change the various parameters on the application (the curves, ..etc.), but nothing solved this issue. 

So.. I'm interested in other breath-controller models that do not require so much air to start sending controller messages. (i.e. a more responsive/sensitive). 

Any recommendations ?

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## DocMidi657 (Nov 26, 2016)

The only other one I know if is this one https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/ but it's pricey and not sure how demanding the air pressure needs to be? Not sure if you know but one of the Tech Control Breath Controller firmware updates lets you set "how slow the decay of sound occurs after you blow". That helps a lot with what you are talking about especially when playing a strings patch. The only problem is it still a bit faster than I would like. I actaully wrote them and they said that was as long/slow as they could get it based on the hardware they have to work with. I do know the Hornberg BC has this feature and I wonder with the cost of that unit you would have more control and ease of play with it. I know Paul from VSL has some videos out there where he talks about this feature and demos it well.


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## muziksculp (Nov 26, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> The only other one I know if is this one https://www.hornberg-research.de/index.php/en/ but it's pricey and not sure how demanding the air pressure needs to be? Not sure if you know but one of the Tech Control Breath Controller firmware updates lets you set "how slow the decay of sound occurs after you blow". That helps a lot with what you are talking about especially when playing a strings patch. The only problem is it still a bit faster than I would like. I actaully wrote them and they said that was as long/slow as they could get it based on the hardware they have to work with. I do know the Hornberg BC has this feature and I wonder with the cost of that unit you would have more control and ease of play with it. I know Paul from VSL has some videos out there where he talks about this feature and demos it well.



Hi DocMidi657,

Yes, at € 890 This is quite a pricy Breath Controller. It better be very good at what it does.

I will research it a bit further, I wasn't planning on spending this much on a Breath Controller. But, If it doesn't need too much air blown into it to respond, and is very flexible as the CC output characteristics it can offer. This could be a very useful tool. I might ask the manufacturer some questions as well, and to check on some of the important factors that matter to me before I venture into another BC purchase.

My TEControl was a wasted investment for me. So, I learned my lesson the hard way 

Thanks,
Muziksculp


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## tack (Nov 26, 2016)

Did you try using the TEControl utility to adjust the sensor min/max values and the bending/symmetry values as well?


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## muziksculp (Nov 26, 2016)

tack said:


> Did you try using the TEControl utility to adjust the sensor min/max values and the bending/symmetry values as well?


Yes, I did.

The problem is more to do with the amount of Air-Pressure I need to exert into the mouthpiece, it gets tiring very fast, I tried experimenting with various settings, and adjusting the air-escape valve, but nothing helped to make it comfortable to use.


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## tack (Nov 26, 2016)

muziksculp said:


> The problem is more to do with the amount of Air-Pressure I need to exert into the mouthpiece, it gets tiring very fast


Which is why I asked about the sensor max slider. If I pull that down to a very low level, I barely even need to breath on the thing for it to shoot up to the highest value.

I personally have the valve mostly closed except for a small gap and sensor max is about 80%, and I find I don't need to exert myself much at all to get things to the half way point. I can play in a line around mf and find myself needing to take a breath what I feel is an appropriate time. A while back I tested this with a few scores that include breath markings and I wasn't far off. I did have to reduce the sensor max to get there -- by default I was running out of air sooner. But then my job isn't to blow into a horn all day. 

It leads me to believe you might have a defective unit, if it's that much of a struggle to use even with a very low sensor max level. I'd definitely reach out to TEControl.


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## muziksculp (Nov 26, 2016)

tack said:


> Which is why I asked about the sensor max slider. If I pull that down to a very low level, I barely even need to breath on the thing for it to shoot up to the highest value.
> 
> I personally have the valve mostly closed except for a small gap and sensor max is about 80%, and I find I don't need to exert myself much at all to get things to the half way point. I can play in a line around mf and find myself needing to take a breath what I feel is an appropriate time. A while back I tested this with a few scores that include breath markings and I wasn't far off. I did have to reduce the sensor max to get there -- by default I was running out of air sooner. But then my job isn't to blow into a horn all day.
> 
> It leads me to believe you might have a defective unit, if it's that much of a struggle to use even with a very low sensor max level. I'd definitely reach out to TEControl.



Hi tack,

Thanks for the helpful feedback.

I will test it a bit further when I have some time, and post some feedback here. 

I don't know if it is defective, but I will also contact TEControl's Support, to inform them about this issue, and see what they say about it. 

Cheers,
Muziksculp


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## jonnybutter (Nov 26, 2016)

+1 to what Tack said. The TEControl works very well when you get it set up to your liking. BTW I have the original version, not the newer one. 

I do think it's a little on the expensive side for what it is, but I'm very glad it's available at all!


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## jsmithsebasto (Nov 26, 2016)

+1 for TEControl, older model. 
(Nothing against the newer model, I just haven't tested it.)


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## Ron Kords (Nov 26, 2016)

Another thumbs up for Techcontrol but appreciate it's difficult to get comfortable with. I'm fortunate that I play woodwinds but still took a while.

Eventually I settled on using low breath pressure with the release set quite tight and the sensitivity low. It does mean that your margin for error in terms of dynamics is small (i.e. soft pressure for ff, very soft pressure for pp - kinda like having a fader with only 2cm throw) but also means your not running out of breath on long phrases or putting big effort in generally.

Hope it works for you. Once you get the breath and bite working together you can really get some magic happening!


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## Vik (Dec 14, 2016)

muziksculp said:


> I will test it a bit further when I have some time, and post some feedback here.


Hi, did you find out anything useful?

I've looked at this breath controller demo:

...and get the impression that breath controllers easily end up with too abrupt note endings - but that the hb1 has a way to deal with that problem (which other solutions don't have?). 
Is that correct, anyone?


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## SamplesSlave (Dec 14, 2016)

Is there a list of current breath controllers on the market?


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## noises on (Dec 14, 2016)

I am sure that this attack advantage is the same as setting the gain/offset on my trusty old yamaha bc3.
Am sure the TEC will have a similar function, except rather than on the headset, it will be in the software.
I have had this unit (bc3) since buying my Vl1 physical modelling synth. The cco2 envelopes feel very natural to me. If you arent a wind instrument player, it could take a while to use it naturally. Not sure I would be up to spending as much as Hornberger are asking.


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## Vik (Dec 14, 2016)

noises on said:


> Am sure the TEC will have a similar function, except rather than on the headset, it will be in the software.


Can any TEC users confirm this?


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## Ron Kords (Dec 15, 2016)

Vik said:


> Can any TEC users confirm this?


Hi, didn't watch the video but the sw with tec can be set so that, say, 10% breath = velocity 1 (of 127). You can fade into and out of silence if you need. Stopping notes on the keyboard rather than breath is more natural and you need to continue blowing to catch the full release of the sample....hope this helps....


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## jonnybutter (Dec 15, 2016)

Unless there's something I'm not getting, I think the key to this depends a lot on the (virtual) instrument you are controlling. I have the TEControl, btw (the original one).

I have separate presets for each instrument I control with the breath controller, and sometimes more than one preset per instrument (depending on the part I'm playing). For example, the SM wind instruments have a lot of dynamic range, so I usually have more than one preset for each of those; sometimes you don't want to blow your lungs out to get a loud part done!

If the sample goes to silence, the breath controller will take you there (TEControl software has Attack and Decay filters that help fine tune). Like Ron above, if patch doesn't go to silence, I just trigger release samples by letting go of the note on the keyboard.

I did watch the video, and as I said, maybe I don't understand what's at issue here. I would love to know why this other BC costs 700-800 euros! More precision? The handsome wooden box?? 

I will say that the TEControl one is not what I would call super durable, but it's also very simple. The tube on mine actually broke off the little USB dingle, and they advised me to just glue it back on, which I did (carefully). Works fine now.


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## bcarwell (Dec 16, 2016)

+1 on exactly and specifically why the HB costs $800. I'd like to know what it does that the TEC cannot do which is clearly audible in a blind test. Perhaps the answer is nothing. Or maybe it is that it takes alot more practice and set up/ease of playing to achieve the same results with the TEC. I'm in the market for a breath controller but won't consider the HB until someone can clearly explain what the extra $600-700 is for... 

Bob


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## muk (Dec 17, 2016)

If I am not mistaken it is the materials rather than the features that make the Hornberg much more expensive. The TEC is made of plastic, the Hornberg is made of wood and stainless steel. I am not the least bit bothered by the TEC built quality. It's reliable, sturdy, and easy to clean. Featurewise the TEC has everything I could wish for, so I don't know what the Hornberg could offer on top of that.
If you are fine with the plastic build, the TEC probably offers everything the Hornberg does. If you'd rather have wood and steel in your mouth you'll have to pay the premium.


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## Ron Kords (Dec 17, 2016)

Ok, had a look at the vid. There may be more but I see 5 things - none of which will affect the sound or end result. 

1. Better hardware
2. Ability to set breath release parameter
3. Ability to set breath attack parameter
4. Auto reduction in data recorded
5. HW parameter set up (I.e. Not having to set options in sw). 

1, 4 and 5 are self explanatory

3. Fairly self explanatory but your handing attack shape to the software due to automation. Almost negates the point of using breath.

2. With tec, as soon as you stop blowing the sample cuts out. With hb1 you can set it so that it fades out your breath signal. Again, your giving away dynamic control but it does mean you can perform more like wind player i.e. Stop blowing and still hear the decay part of the envelope. Suspect this would be very nice for short note playing. It also gives more potential for taking breaths.

Personally I don't use the breath for repeated shorts as keyboard technique deals with what you need to achieve. For long/shorts I would use faders or maintain breath throughout to 'catch' shorts and releases. Breath really shines on long legato passages, where you use vibrato and dynamics to create a realistic result, particularly solo passages.

Should you pay more for hb1? Not if your hoping for a different or better sound - this is all in your samples waiting to be prised out by whatever means. Your paying for nice hardware and additional attack and decay options.

If you prefer the aesthetic of the machine (who wouldn't!) and can afford the extra it looks a good buy.

In your shoes I would get the tec, and Sample modelling trumpets and flutes for the same money and upgrade later if I really liked the breath approach. 

Chris


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## Saxer (Dec 17, 2016)

The envelope options of the Hornberg are probably very useful to let release (room) samples ring out. But I am very happy with the TEC (without bite). I use it without the mouth peace, I blow direct into the little plastic peace at the end of the tube. So no air gets through and the CCs are controlled by pressure only. I can hold long notes and breath while closing the tube with my tounge. So I can get through long string passages without choking.
One TEC is already dead and I immediately ordered two new ones to replace it and have a backup. Something I wouldn't have done with Hornbergs.


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## rdieters (Dec 17, 2016)

Ron Kords said:


> Ok, had a look at the vid. There may be more but I see 5 things - none of which will affect the sound or end result.
> 
> 1. Better hardware
> 2. Ability to set breath release parameter
> ...



I use the TEControl, and very happy with it. It's been very reliable so far for me and it just works.

Your points no 2 and 3 are called attack and decay filters in the TEControl set-up utility and they are I suppose exactly the same function. 4, I'm not sure what that means... if you refer to net sending redundant MIDI messages when the signal doesn't change, well I can confirm TEControl does that too.

That would leave you with supposedly better hardware... but do you really care about an overpriced wooden/steel case? That leaves you with only one functional difference, HW parameter setup. In my opionion that isn't worth at all the monstrous price difference. I also don't like clutter and I must say I like the minimalist design of the TEControl unit, less is surely more for me.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 17, 2016)

I have the TEC, and I am unhappy with it. It sits in a draw. The main reason is the fact that it has such a tiny mouthpiece, and putting any real air pressure into it is not possible. I play a number of wind instruments (woods and brass) and there is no comparison. If I wanted another wind controller I would use the Akai EWI. I went back to the mod wheel here. I would suppose if you were an oboe player it might feel more right.


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## bcarwell (Dec 17, 2016)

Many thanks folks for taking the time in the clear and helpful explanation re the Hornberg. Left me breathless.

Bob


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## Vik (Dec 17, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> Akai EWI


That's a lot cheaper than the Hornberg also, isn't it?


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## jonnybutter (Dec 17, 2016)

Vik said:


> That's a lot cheaper than the Hornberg also, isn't it?



The pro models are close to the Hornberg, but at least you are getting something for that money - they are quite flexible, fingering-wise, and come with sounds. There's a cheaper one for about $300 usd.

My guess is that the Hornberg is such a speciality item that they don't expect to sell very many, hence the price. I'm sure they are right! I think the TEControl is a little over priced as well, but as I said upthread, thank god it's available at all. Once you get used to using a BC (and if you like it) you always want to have one.


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## Saxer (Dec 17, 2016)

ZeroZero said:


> ...If I wanted another wind controller I would use the Akai EWI. I went back to the mod wheel here. I would suppose if you were an oboe player it might feel more right.


I can't stand the EWI because there's not enough air going through for my taste. I always feel lik a balloon when playing it. I like to use my Yamaha WX7 though it's very old (30 years). I hope the new Roland AE10 will be as good!
For the TEControl I just got used to play it without air going through and would never compare it to a wind instrument. Feels different but works great for me.


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## ZeroZero (Dec 17, 2016)

Saxer said:


> I can't stand the EWI because there's not enough air going through for my taste. I always feel lik a balloon when playing it. I like to use my Yamaha WX7 though it's very old (30 years). I hope the new Roland AE10 will be as good!
> For the TEControl I just got used to play it without air going through and would never compare it to a wind instrument. Feels different but works great for me.



I agree really about the EWI - I sold mine on after ten minutes play, also the non moving fake keys - uuk! 

I don't get the TE thing at all, why not put a proper mouthpiece on the thing?
Ah well - the mod wheel is also OK.


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## Ron Kords (Dec 17, 2016)

rdieters said:


> I use the TEControl, and very happy with it. It's been very reliable so far for me and it just works.
> 
> Your points no 2 and 3 are called attack and decay filters in the TEControl set-up utility and they are I suppose exactly the same function. 4, I'm not sure what that means... if you refer to net sending redundant MIDI messages when the signal doesn't change, well I can confirm TEControl does that too.
> 
> That would leave you with supposedly better hardware... but do you really care about an overpriced wooden/steel case? That leaves you with only one functional difference, HW parameter setup. In my opionion that isn't worth at all the monstrous price difference. I also don't like clutter and I must say I like the minimalist design of the TEControl unit, less is surely more for me.


Thanks dieters. Didn't realise the tec can do this...! Will go back and check this out. Sorry for the dodgy advice, Bob....


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## jonnybutter (Dec 17, 2016)

_Your points no 2 and 3 are called attack and decay filters in the TEControl set-up utility and they are I suppose exactly the same function.
_
I also mentioned these two parameters. They sometimes work for this, though of course it depends on the instrument. I don't know if the Hornberg one works better or not at attack and decay filtering. Possible I guess.​


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## jonnybutter (Dec 27, 2016)

I just went shopping at TEControl and saw that it's now 119 Euro for the basic model and 199 Euro for model 2. That's expensive for what it is. I know the market for breath controllers is probably small, but those prices will help ensure that it stay small! I only mention it because this makes the 700 euro one not look so outrageous; you could go through three of the TEControl 2 BCs in a few years and spend almost as much as the wooden box one costs


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## rdieters (Jan 3, 2017)

jonnybutter said:


> you could go through three of the TEControl 2 BCs in a few years and spend almost as much as the wooden box one costs



I've had my TEControl for more than two years and it still works as well as it did when new, so I am not really sure what you mean with that.


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