# Composing with modes....?



## YoungComposer (Sep 27, 2012)

Hi,

I was recently asked to write a piano piece or piano plus another instrument using two different modes throughout.

I was thinking of using the Messiaen modes, like Octatonic and so on, but I was unsure of how to approach this new way of composition. 

Are there two modes that would work well together? Any tips for writing modally or like Messaien/Debussy/etc.

Any examples?

Let me know what you guys think, cause atm I'm a little intimidated.

Thanks!


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## bdr (Sep 27, 2012)

Check out Vincent Persichettis book '20th Century Harmony' lots of great tips in there.


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## Kralc (Sep 27, 2012)

bdr @ Fri Sep 28 said:


> Check out Vincent Persichettis book '20th Century Harmony' lots of great tips in there.


+1

But why messiaen? Why not the 7 (ionian, dorian, phrygian, etc....)

There you've got many great duos, Ionian & Lydian (Working the raised 4th), Aeolian & Dorian (playing with the min6th and the maj6th)
Those are just simple pairs with only one altered note though.


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## YoungComposer (Sep 27, 2012)

Because I have already written a piece using the modes Lydian and Harmonic Major, so I wanted to expand for this assignment.

Thanks for the book, I'll definitely check it out.


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## ozmorphasis (Sep 27, 2012)

If you are feeling intimidated, give yourself severe limitations. They will set you free. Pick a few, and then just see what comes out. For example, only two voices, a specific meter, etc.

After that, abandon those set of "rules" and come up with a new set. 

Each time, compose a finished piece, even if it's short. Not just a sketch.


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## Casey Edwards (Sep 27, 2012)

No mode should really be treated strictly IMO. The Octatonic (also known as the diminished scale or the whole/half or half/whole scale) needs to have the 'tonal center' switched quite frequently to not become too static. Also, you pretty much answered your own question man. Nothing beats studying with score. Listen to Debussy and how he treats the pentatonic and whole tone scales in both harmony, melody, and form. Listen to as much as you can get a hold of and begin to experiment when you're done. Sure books can go on and on for days about analytical jargon, but in the end you need to experiment on your own.


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## Ryan Scully (Sep 27, 2012)

Lots of good advice in response to the op - Not sure which instrument(s) you play, but scaler practice is one of the best ways to capture the feel and essence of the diatonic modes(Ionian,Dorian,Phrygian, etc.) IMO. Picking a major key and playing each scale degree/corresponding mode in sequence is great practice and really helps to digest them - Even picking one tonal center(like A) and playing through the various modes(A Dorian, A Aeolian, A Locrian, etc) is great practice and certainly helps when composing chord progressions using borrowed chords/modal interchange - It's all in building your ear towards the sound and applications of the modes themselves which will ultimately
lead to comfort when composing with them - To the point of not having to think about them while composing - This is at least the path I follow  


Ryan :D


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## Kralc (Sep 27, 2012)

YoungComposer @ Fri Sep 28 said:


> Because I have already written a piece using the modes Lydian and Harmonic Major, so I wanted to expand for this assignment.



Okay, didn't know that. 
You got some great advice above now anyway,
Good luck.


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 27, 2012)

You might consider the following since it instructs in writing in each mode except for locrian:

http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products/The-Instant-Composer--Counterpoint-by-Fux----PDF__978-0-939067-52-7-PDF.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... 7-PDF.aspx)


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## bryla (Sep 28, 2012)

Peter Alexander @ Fri Sep 28 said:


> You might consider the following since it instructs in writing in each mode except for locrian:
> 
> http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products/The-Instant-Composer--Counterpoint-by-Fux----PDF__978-0-939067-52-7-PDF.aspx (http://alexanderpublishing.com/Products ... 7-PDF.aspx)


Not according to his actual question. The Persichetti book is what you should be looking in to!


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## mducharme (Sep 28, 2012)

The impressionists frequently just moved between chords for coloristic purposes, whatever sounded nice. It's hard to put rules to that. Sometimes they used regular tonal progressions but modally altered - in a lot of cases you will find things like I-V7-I or I-V-I in common practice tonal music which, in impressionist modal music, was altered to I-v7-I or I-v-I (this is of course mixolydian mode). This breaks the hallowed rule from the renaissance that the raised leading tone must be used to provide a strong clear cadence - the refreshing sound of a v-. It should be noted that in the renaissance at a cadence, the leading tone of mixolydian mode would have been always raised, causing it to turn into major at that point and lose its "flavor", but the impressionists did not do this. It can be seen to represent a reaction to the post-Wagnerian chromaticism by returning to a sortof primeval diatonicism.


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 28, 2012)

bryla @ Fri Sep 28 said:


> Peter Alexander @ Fri Sep 28 said:
> 
> 
> > You might consider the following since it instructs in writing in each mode except for locrian:
> ...



He asked: _are there any tips for writing modally?_ Fux methodically teaches you how to write and reharmonize in each mode, in this book, up to 3-part counterpoint.

I answered.


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## mducharme (Sep 28, 2012)

Hi Peter,

Out of curiosity - how does your book (which I do not own, I only have the original Fux) approach the topic of modes in the 20th century and how their usage differs from the renaissance? I ask because those are, in my view, almost completely different beasts, and the original Fux was aimed at Renaissance polyphony.


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## YoungComposer (Sep 28, 2012)

Yes, the persichetti was exactly what I was looking for, this is perfect. Thanks!


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## mm (Sep 28, 2012)

Check out A Geometry of Music by Dmitri Tymoczko: http://dmitri.tymoczko.com/geometry-of-music.html.


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## Peter Alexander (Sep 28, 2012)

mducharme @ Fri Sep 28 said:


> Hi Peter,
> 
> Out of curiosity - how does your book (which I do not own, I only have the original Fux) approach the topic of modes in the 20th century and how their usage differs from the renaissance? I ask because those are, in my view, almost completely different beasts, and the original Fux was aimed at Renaissance polyphony.



The Instant Composer is derived from a brand new translation of the Mizler book I commissioned. After spendiing time with the examples, I saw he was teaching the reader how to write and reharmonize in each mode. Rather than re-present the material in a Socratic dialog, I restated his teaching points in a more how-to manner without the Socratic dialog.

I don't make an effort to discuss the 20th Century usage other than referencing jazz usage that assigns a specific mode to a chord like Dorian to ii minor. Those of us having had jazz harmony instruction (Berklee, Grove, Miami, University of North Texas, etc) will find with Fux a wider vocabulary of modal expression that can be applied either as Fux suggested for one type of sound, or as they wish. Fux is merely the starting point. 

Additionally, the "original" you mentioned, if you're referring to Alfred Mann, only goes up to four-part counterpoint. The actual original is a complete composition course covering imitation, 2-part fugal writing, and much more. 

In the homework analysis section of most lessons, the Learner is given a variety of examples from different time periods to see how the concept of counterpoint was applied by various composers, including Bach with a number of chorales to evaluate. 

My teaching premise is in demonstrating how counterpoint is for today and not just a required dead class to get a grade, which is how it's frequently taught. For more practicality I added video lectures as well.

Post-Fux, counterpoint teaching moved to the more "modern" sound of major and minor with Cherubini's book. However, those wanting a more modern approach I refer to our Goetschius revision of Elementary 18th Century Counterpoint.


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