# Spitfire Audio, Solo Strings, and business ethics



## kof gadol (Jan 9, 2016)

Back in 2013 I'd spent a while researching which solo strings library should be my first. I'm on a budget, so had to weigh carefully. I was impressed by the Spitfire Solo Strings (SSS) demos I'd heard, except that the vibrato sounded not quite right at all.

What made me go ahead and buy SSS was Spitfire's written post on their Youtube page that they would be updating the library later that year. Here



they wrote:

"So - the main reason for the nonvib - vib being a smooth switch rather than a continuous xfade, is that if you xfade smoothly over the whole MW, you hear it sounding like 2 players at certain points: there is no real way around that with the legato at this stage. *We are going to update this library later in the year though so we'll have another look at it!*" [emphasis added]

That last line sounded (and still sounds) unequivocal. As I'd heard good things about the company, I had no reason to doubt it. So in October of that year, I pulled the trigger, and waited for an update to appear at some point during the remainder of the year.

The end of the year came and went. The next year, ditto. Then Feb 2015, another SSS customer asked, on the Spitfire forum, what was up. After some silence and a nudge from the OP, Spitfire did reply later that month:

"*There is indeed an update in the works*. Its not going to be within the next month or two, I would estimate Q2 this year. It will be worth the wait!"
[emphasis added]

Seven more months passed, nothing. Then in October 2015, the OP wrote, "Just wondering if there is any news on this update?"

No one answered. That's the last post in this thread as of today.

That exchange is here:

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=507

I think Spitfire is out of line here.

-- Twice Spitfire promised something which it did not deliver. As it's now Jan 2016, Spitfire seems unlikely to deliver on its promises dating back to 2013. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, Spitfire.) Plainly put, Spitfire seems to be showing that its word is not necessarily its bond.

-- Having to be chased for an answer, only to make a quick promise, and thereafter ignore the OP when he tried to make that promise stick, is a crappy way to treat a customer.

I know Spitfire has many satisfied customers here; great, I am sure they have good reason to be. I guess I was just unlucky, that Spitfire would choose my first big Spitfire library (big for me, anyway) to abandon, despite their promises. Again, it was this promise on which I based my decision to buy SSS. This raises real credibility concerns.

I have noticed that while SSS seems de facto orphaned, Spitfire, with apparently nary a look back, has gone from strength to strength with new products, including Sable strings, which have improved features of the type which users of SSS had been waiting for -- or at least some kind of "Redux" treatment like the Albions got. In fact it almost seems as though Spitfire was still learning certain techniques when producing SSS, which they only really refined later. A far as I'm aware, SSS owners have not been offered any upgrade price for the likes of Sable, which I think would be fair compensation for the broken promises.

This all leaves a very bad taste, in my mouth anyway. The money I spent on SSS would have gone a long way toward buying a much more usable library, such as an entry-level one from VSL.

Maybe I'm being harsh. Spitfire, would you mind explaining yourself here?


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## TintoL (Jan 9, 2016)

Very good questions for spitfire. I remember searching for a new solo library and researched on this solo strings. I was impressed that the product seemed not completed after so many years. 

But I do think that we are also to blame for keep buying products not completed on preorder or not preorder. They just released sacconi strings and it doesn't have portamento. And the lack of the product not completed is the main reason I didn't buy it. They are not so bad with updates, but they do forget about priorities. 

At this stage I wouldn't even expect an update. I would hope they release a bml solo strings recorded in the air studio.

Spitfire is not the only one doing this. Most companies suffer from this. 

Let's see what they show in namm.


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## ModalRealist (Jan 9, 2016)

Spitfire's libraries are great, but like most, they drop the ball just the same. I too have been disappointed by the lack of updates to Solo Strings (though I understand completely that the new strings absolutely deserve to be a distinct product - the point is that separate, promised updates never materialised). I had a similar experience with a product from the BML line, with additional mics and script updates taking far, far too long to arrive compared to the way the product was marketed. I think that's the issue they have: their enthusiastic copy says one thing, and the actual way things play out doesn't live up to that. It's demoralising as an experience for the consumer (some, no doubt, more than others). I made a decision not to buy more from them anymore, precisely because I find their advertising and copy very persuasive, and I'm not convinced that they're 100% committed to living up to everything in that copy. I don't think for a moment that this is deliberate on their part! I'm sure it's a byproduct of their genuine enthusiasm for what they do. But it's a recipe for disappointment for me, and I'd rather just save myself the trouble. So on the plus side, the experience has given rise to a new rule for me (albeit one that many might argue ought to have been common sense for me beforehand anyway): 'Only buy when you'd be happy with the product _exactly as it is today, as you've personally experienced it,_ for the price it's being sold at.'


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 9, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> I too have been disappointed by the lack of updates to Solo Strings (though I understand completely that the new strings absolutely deserve to be a distinct product - the point is that separate, promised updates never materialised).


Yes. This is true. 8Dio is a prime example of the "don't update" mindset, and they've done pretty well lately. The problem is that Spitfire *promised *an update to their customers, and some people took the plunge because they expected Spitfire to keep their word - which they didn't. Dishonesty, even unintentional dishonesty, will not leave a good taste in anyone's mouth.


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## blougui (Jan 9, 2016)

Never purchase a product on the promisses of its improvement. Never ! Unless your're one of its a share holder, sustaining a friend's company and do not care about some late beta testing.
No need to boycott a dev. Do your research, VI-C is a good place to start, and make a decision based on your needs and comments about playability/early bug reports... If you cannot live with an unfinished/buggy product (understandibly) then do not pre-order any vi instrument and you'll save yourself lots of regrets, time and money.
So forget about early bird promos. Anyway, lottsa brands are making sales, even SA nowadays...
Erik


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## ModalRealist (Jan 9, 2016)

@blougui: in this case, I at least - I can't speak for others - was not pre-ordering, but buying a product that had been out for some time. The issue is not that v1.0 products may require some patches - everyone accepts that bugs are a thing that happens! - but that the wait for promised content and features, often intimated to have a sooner-than-later ETA, is far too long (or in some cases, apparently infinite). The reason, in my case, for not buying from Spitfire has nothing like the nature of a "boycott", as you intimated. Far from it. It's about the fact that I, as a consumer, know that their enthusiasm and product descriptions will "pull" at me, but that I cannot in good faith take those without a pinch of salt. So it's simpler better for me personally to avoid buying! That's just as much good consumer advice as only pre-ordering when you're happy with first-version bugs or whatever.


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## Ben H (Jan 9, 2016)

Timelines ALWAYS slip, no matter how well intentioned the company. It's often said the last 5% of a product takes 95% of the total development time. You should never buy software (or sample libraries) based on projected time frames or future promises.


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## coprhead6 (Jan 9, 2016)

I can't find the thread after 25 minutes of searching (damn!), but Spitfire recently responded to these accusations in an unrelated thread that got hijacked.

Basically they said that Solo Strings was one of their first ever libraries and people should take a long hard look at how far they've come since then (I think 60 products this year?). They also said that any update wouldn't be free...
Wish I could verify my own statements but I can't find that stupid thread!


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## kof gadol (Jan 9, 2016)

I appreciate the comments folks. 

Yes, they do seem to really spend a lot of time on that copy, and the graphics, the brand ... for that inimitable look. 

Well, fool me once, shame on me. I'd assumed from all the branding that these guys love their work way too much not to love their customers too, or to them properly. 

They are clever enough to understand that if you are not sure you can deliver something, just don't promise it. Put plainly, I feel misled. Had they not done, I'd have decided to buy elsewhere and that would have been that. 

Perhaps I've been lucky, but pretty much 99% of the vendors of libraries, VSTis, VSTfx and DAWs I've bought over the years have been straight up. While I've seen some of them put certain things which I like out to pasture, they'd never promised any fixes or further development, unlike Spitfire in this case. I'm sure it happens, but in my experience, something quite so flagrant is rare.

I would at very least like to see Spitfire explain whether they think the way they handled this -- specifically, breaking two written promises, as well as, while we're there, completely blowing off that OP customer -- is 

a) not ok, something to say sorry for, and not to be repeated 

or 

b) something which is ok, or "ok-ish" enough to happen again. 

If it is decided that it's a), then in recognition of this being exceptional, I'd be grateful for the exceptional permission to sell my library, por favor


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## tack (Jan 9, 2016)

kof gadol said:


> Well, fool me once, shame on me.


You only deserve shame if you're fooled a second time. Well, usually.


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## kof gadol (Jan 9, 2016)

coprhead6 said:


> Basically they said that Solo Strings was one of their first ever libraries and people should take a long hard look at how far they've come since then (I think 60 products this year?).



Assuming they actually said that -- uhm, what? They broke promises to certain customers, who should then put aside our selfish concerns, and be proud of how Spitfire has grown?


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## Jerome Vonhogen (Jan 9, 2016)

@kof gadol
I don't think it's fair to make it look like Spitfire never made any attempt to improve SSS.
I haven't used SSS in a long time, but I remember that Spitfire did improve the cello in an early update in the same year SSS was released. I'm pretty sure there was even an official audio demo showing the improvements.

However, sometimes it doesn't make sense anymore for a developer to continue to update an old product, especially when certain aspects of the software can only be improved by creating an entirely new product. At the moment, there are all sorts of innovations in the field of virtual solo instruments, so in order to be able to compete with other companies, developers have to come up with new products that are innovative and, if possible, unique.

Besides, if I remember correctly, most of the complaints about SSS were not so much about the vibrato, but about the crossfading of samples in legato phrases, and about the fact that the transition scripts would only work without the release tail of the samples, which was particularly problematic for SSS, because of the great acoustics of the recording venue that Spitfire users love so much.

Despite the limitations of the product, SSS isn't really broken, nor is it full of bugs and artifacts. Maybe you should just accept the product as it is, and perhaps try to work around the issues you encounter, until Spitfire has decided what it's next move will be.

- Jerome Vonhögen


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## Lee Blaske (Jan 9, 2016)

As I recall, SSS was intended to be a sketching tool, and never a be-all, end-all product. And as of late, Spitfire has been exploding with development activity. I can understand how something could have gotten put on the back burner. Their sampling techniques have most likely evolved to a point now that it wouldn't be productive to revisit that product.

If I had a concern like this, though, I think my first plan of attack would have been to write Spitfire and remind them of their statements/promises (without getting into any bitter accusation of faulty business practices, etc.), and tell them about your situation. Companies like this have a lot of latitude to make things right for customers. Rather than trying them in the public square, a concerned inquiry would probably have gotten you a nice "out of court" settlement. They strike me as genuinely decent people. 

For some reason, I haven't used that library much as of late, but I think it has a really nice character to it. It has a really meaty sound. 

A quick mock-up I did with SSS shortly after I got it (before it was revised)...

https://www.reverbnation.com/leeblaske/song/18115126-qu-tramposo


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## The Darris (Jan 9, 2016)

As a user of Spitfire's Solo Strings and also one who has made my anger about the lack of an update known to them personally and publicly, I would much rather see them retire it (ala Albion 1) and release a new Solo Strings Series recorded in Air. As long as they offer existing customers of Solo Strings a special cross-grade to the newer one, I'd be happy. Either way, it is frustrating for me as I bought Solo Strings well before they started making those promises. So, yeah, reading a public promise as well as a personal promise via private emails, it is frustrating and totally understandable why anyone would be upset.

PS: For those who would recommend the Sacconi String Quartet series, I'd say that Sacconi does offer a lot more than what Solo Strings does but the character is completely different to what they would get from Air. I really like the sound and potential of Solo Strings and how they were captured in Air. So, here's hoping to that in the near future.


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## StatKsn (Jan 9, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Yes. This is true. 8Dio is a prime example of the "don't update" mindset, and they've done pretty well lately. The problem is that Spitfire *promised *an update to their customers, and some people took the plunge because they expected Spitfire to keep their word - which they didn't. Dishonesty, even unintentional dishonesty, will not leave a good taste in anyone's mouth.



Not attacking 8Dio, but they also promised a lot of updates such as at least four add-ons for their V8P libraries each. As far as I know, just one add-on has been materialized, they never updated ETA which is still something like Q2 to Q4 2014 - then, to add insult to injury for those bought into promise, they essentially discontinued those exclusive libraries by re-releasing it as if it is the new exciting library?

Don't get me wrong. The recent libraries are definitely technologically far better than previous ones (the prepared piano is also REALLY awesome) but the "bullsat" rate is just way too high, not just V8P cases. As a former supporter I stopped subscribing to the news. 

It is fine to delay - I know to my heart how it is difficult to release something so complex in time. But please release what you have promised, or please let us know if it has been cancelled.


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## Spitfire Team (Jan 10, 2016)

The Darris said:


> As a user of Spitfire's Solo Strings and also one who has made my anger about the lack of an update known to them personally and publicly, I would much rather see them retire it (ala Albion 1) and release a new Solo Strings Series recorded in Air. As long as they offer existing customers of Solo Strings a special cross-grade to the newer one, I'd be happy. Either way, it is frustrating for me as I bought Solo Strings well before they started making those promises. So, yeah, reading a public promise as well as a personal promise via private emails, it is frustrating and totally understandable why anyone would be upset.
> 
> PS: For those who would recommend the Sacconi String Quartet series, I'd say that Sacconi does offer a lot more than what Solo Strings does but the character is completely different to what they would get from Air. I really like the sound and potential of Solo Strings and how they were captured in Air. So, here's hoping to that in the near future.



“Solo Strings is still scheduled to be ported over to the BML codebase. Work started on this a while back, but its a very fiddly and time intensive job, essentially a ground up rebuild. It will be updated, but we cannot give a date on this, as a commercial enterprise we have to allocate time and resources intelligently to stay in business.
Since its release it has been updated several times. see here:

*Specific info on Solo Strings updates:*
http://blake.so/spitfire/libraries/?library=ee1c34a0

*General info on Spitfire updates:*
http://blake.so/spitfire/updates/

We cannot find evidence of any other developer issuing as many updates as we do, probably to the point of annoyance... but hey, its our train set too!

Kind regards,

Spitfire Team.


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## mickeyl (Jan 10, 2016)

StatKsn said:


> It is fine to delay - I know to my heart how it is difficult to release something so complex in time. But please release what you have promised, or please let us know if it has been cancelled.



Yeah!


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## Morodiene (Jan 10, 2016)

Looks like a case where Spitfire made the typical business mistake: they promised something they couldn't really deliver. Hopefully they've learned from this. What they released was a workable product, it seems, and they should have left it at that, while continuing to work on an update. That way, no one would think it would ever improve in case it wouldn't be possible. 

I think many businesses do this early on. Those who are good at business will learn from this and not over-promise/under-deliver in the future - as it seems Spitfire has done. 

There are some companies who don't however, and they keep churning out software that either doesn't quite work, or doesn't really do the things that were promised. When we buy a new product, we have nothing to go on but a company's reputation and their product verbage and whatever demos they can provide. Sometimes we are so excited about the prospects that we don't really read the fine print, do our research, etc. Some companies hope for that, because that's all they have to get you to buy.

I know it sucks - I experienced something quite like this very recently - but best to learn from this and move on. Use the software if it's usable for you, if not, chalk it up to a hard lesson to learn. :/


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## Zhao Shen (Jan 10, 2016)

Spitfire Team said:


> “Solo Strings is still scheduled to be ported over to the BML codebase. Work started on this a while back, but its a very fiddly and time intensive job, essentially a ground up rebuild. It will be updated, but we cannot give a date on this, as a commercial enterprise we have to allocate time and resources intelligently to stay in business.
> Since its release it has been updated several times. see here:
> 
> *Specific info on Solo Strings updates:*
> ...


Thanks for finally giving us word on this. Good to know it's still in the works.


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## Brendon Williams (Jan 10, 2016)

ModalRealist said:


> 'Only buy when you'd be happy with the product _exactly as it is today, as you've personally experienced it,_ for the price it's being sold at.'


A good rule of thumb!


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## The Darris (Jan 10, 2016)

Spitfire Team said:


> “Solo Strings is still scheduled to be ported over to the BML codebase. Work started on this a while back, but its a very fiddly and time intensive job, essentially a ground up rebuild. It will be updated, but we cannot give a date on this, as a commercial enterprise we have to allocate time and resources intelligently to stay in business."



Thanks for clarifying and I am glad to know it has not been forgotten. I'm looking forward to this in the future.


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## TintoL (Jan 10, 2016)

Finally a confirmation of a bml solo string. That is great news.

To me the best way to avoid these confusion is to say in advance that the product will not be updated anymore and re done to match the bml products. As long as the users are aware of the situation, I think things will be fine.
I think is beetter to avoid the supper secrecy on production instead of having uses waiting for an update.


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## prodigalson (Jan 10, 2016)

I wonder exactly what updating the code base will do when only using the recordings that were already done? While the SSS recordings are beautiful wont they be limited in terms of options for legato transitions/depth of vibrato etc? 

For example, will SF be able to completely reprogram the legatos to include the kind of "performance legato" patch we see in their more recent libraries? Will we get smoother dynamic and vibrato crossfades?


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## DocMidi657 (Jan 10, 2016)

prodigalson said:


> I wonder exactly what updating the code base will do when only using the recordings that were already done? While the SSS recordings are beautiful wont they be limited in terms of options for legato transitions/depth of vibrato etc?
> 
> For example, will SF be able to completely reprogram the legatos to include the kind of "performance legato" patch we see in their more recent libraries? Will we get smoother dynamic and vibrato crossfades?


I don't know if I would automatically assume right off the bat that Spitfire is not recording more samples for the porting to the BML code base. Or also that the tricks they have learned since they released this very early library for them might not give them the ability to address the technical issues you mentioned with their existing sampling sessions. They did mention that the task is "fiddly" which leads me to wonder if they are tying to match some things up with possibly some newly captured content and it's quite a challenge to "hide the seams from old to new perhaps". Again just speculation on my part and if so hope they are successful.


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## prodigalson (Jan 10, 2016)

DocMidi657 said:


> I don't know if I would automatically assume right off the bat that Spitfire is not recording more samples for the porting to the BML code base. Or also that the tricks they have learned since they released this very early library for them might not give them the ability to address the technical issues you mentioned with their existing sampling sessions. They did mention that the task is "fiddly" which leads me to wonder if they are tying to match some things up with possibly some newly captured content and it's quite a challenge to "hide the seams from old to new perhaps". Again just speculation on my part and if so hope they are successful.



Yes, it'll be interesting. I'm definitely optimistic and hope you're right.


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## lpuser (Jan 12, 2016)

blougui said:


> Never purchase a product on the promisses of its improvement. Never !



The nature of software (and most sample libraries) is that there is no such thing as a bug-free product. I have not seen one single product during the last years which would not have required an update. Needless to say that some companies did not care or went out of business before. That said, I understand your point, but buying in software is a matter of trust (especially because many companies do not offer trial versions and deliver dressed demos which make it hard or even impossible to understand what you are buying).

In my opinion, a lot of companies spend way too much time creating a truckload of new products (which of course means "sales") but forget about what they already released and their past customers.


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## HardyP (Jan 12, 2016)

Spitfire Team said:


> *Specific info on Solo Strings updates:*
> http://blake.so/spitfire/libraries/?library=ee1c34a0


Whow - I think this is the biggest update on earth of all times until now - nearly 1TB!?!?


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## stonzthro (Jan 12, 2016)

Spitfire Team said:


> We cannot find evidence of any other developer issuing as many updates as we do, probably to the point of annoyance... but hey, its our train set too!



So true! I've purchased other libraries and regretted their lack of interest in updating or fixing issues - Spitfire seems to take this very seriously.


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## tack (Jan 12, 2016)

HardyP said:


> Whow - I think this is the biggest update on earth of all times until now - nearly 1TB!?!?


Interesting, when I look it shows 939.7mb, not gb. Possibly Blake quietly updated it in the last hour or so.


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## kof gadol (Jan 12, 2016)

Spitfire Team said:


> “Solo Strings is still scheduled to be ported over to the BML codebase. Work started on this a while back, but its a very fiddly and time intensive job, essentially a ground up rebuild. It will be updated, but we cannot give a date on this, as a commercial enterprise we have to allocate time and resources intelligently to stay in business.
> Since its release it has been updated several times. see here:
> 
> *Specific info on Solo Strings updates:*
> ...


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## kof gadol (Jan 12, 2016)

Jerome Vonhogen said:


> @kof gadol
> Maybe you should just accept the product as it is, and perhaps try to work around the issues you encounter, until Spitfire has decided what it's next move will be.
> 
> - Jerome Vonhögen



Thank you for the advice, which I nonetheless respectfully decline, as I am not in the habit of "pay now, receive the working goods at some hazy future date" transactions. Spitfire has been sitting for over a year on my money, which it gained through misleading communication.

Perhaps it is your style to wait meekly in such case, if that's your choice. It is not, however, mine.


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## JohnG (Jan 12, 2016)

Maybe you should consider law school?

I love Spitfire's libraries. I now have tons of them. Sure, there are some things I wish were different, but they are awesome overall and I've received quite a large number of updates too.


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## SpeakPianissimoAndCarry.. (Jan 12, 2016)

I feel bad for you but Spitfire is the most awesome updating company ever! They give not only bug fixes but new features for free with each update, which they are under no legal obligation to do. ☺ But they have released tons of libraries since Solo Strings. To ask them to do this for every library that they ever produced is asking too much in my opinion. OK, so they announced it long ago, but they had no idea that the company would take off the way it did. I am on the fence about that. I would not expect it from an older library but they did announce it a while ago. Hmmmmm Being so awesome about the recent libraries, I would give them a pass. Solo strings from other companies are taking off now. Even if they upgrade to the new control panel, they may need a new library to compete. To spend so much money on improvement of that library and it still not compete? I would not do it if it were my library. My 2 shillings.


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## kof gadol (Jan 12, 2016)

Sorry gentlemen, but the amazing things the company does in other respects, the general nature of software, your delight with their products, etc. have nothing to do with the irreducible facts of Spitfire's misconduct in this case.

They falsely promised an update to be implemented in 2013, getting over $300 off me as a result, and now in 2016 wish to wiggle out by saying, sorry, busy with other things.

Do you like getting less than you paid for, JohnG? Is this how you do business yourself? 

Maybe they now regret the promise, but they still own it. They are trying to give themselves a pass at my expense.

To keep that money is wrong. It is a very clear-cut case of misleading advertising. If you promise, deliver, and if you can't deliver, don't promise. It really is that simple. Children understand this, no law degree needed.

As my aim in posting has been to get fair treatment (not to win online sympathy -- after all, when it's not your money at stake, you can afford to be charitable with it) -- and as Spitfire have amply shown that an appeal to a sense of right and wrong is futile, I'll bow out of this particular arena now. Thanks all for contributing.


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## prodigalson (Jan 12, 2016)

I dunno, I think you're on pretty shaky ground here. You're basing your objection on a casual comment made in a youtube video 2 years after the library was released. Not in any official, commercial announcement or detail noted on the product page. You're making it seem like they announced and released the product saying "this library doesn't have X but buy now and get X later!" in the advertising. In my humble opinion, that's a lot different to releasing a product and two years later casually responding to a feature request in a buried YOUTUBE comment with "we'll be updating later this year so we'll take a look". Yes, they probably shouldn't have said that but if it were me, reading that comment I certainly wouldn't have taken it as written in stone that that update was coming through especially as at that point the product was already 2 years old. And if I did, I definitely wouldn't be screaming foul and taking personal offense that the update never happened. 

I think it's a gamble to buy a product that doesn't have a feature you want despite already being two years old, no matter what they say is coming.

Again, you're right that it's unfortunate they gave a timeline for the updates and they didn't turn up. Though as they noted above it's still in the works, so it's not totally fair to characterize them as "wiggling out" of anything.

A mistake on their part? maybe. bad ethics?? I dont think that's fair. 

Just my two cents.


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 13, 2016)

I don't think the announcement of this library awaiting an upgrade was some hidden remark somewhere. I too got this information last June firsthand from a conversation with Spitfire support. I am too waiting for this update and I feel a little bit disappointed that they just started the Sacconi Strings before delivering this promised update.
However, I do get use out of the existing solo strings, they are still very good as is, but yes and of course, now I'd love to see some extended features on them as displayed in Sacconi.


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## KEnK (Jan 13, 2016)

I learned a long time ago not to count on updates.
To me any product is purchased as is.
Your expectations are much more realistic that way.


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## alextone (Jan 15, 2016)

The notion/salesblurb of purchasing cutting edge releases to get that unique "sound" before everyone else buys it has long been a central core of many a sample lib ad campaign. And with that, of course, comes the potential for changes. In any other profession, a delay would cost a company a chunk of its reputation and quite possibly a portion of their return, unless they clearly articulate to their customers what's going on in some manner or other. But when it comes to software, there seems to a carefully cultivated acceptance that a perpetual beta state is a given, and should be "accepted" by customers as a natural consequence of buying the offered product, be it owned or licensed.

It's fair to say some companies get it wrong, and don't always twig that customers are getting restless. But it's also true customers sometimes get so caught up with their own enthusiasm, and shiny kit syndrome, that they jump before considering all options.

I will admit i made that purchase mistake once, quite some years ago, and since then have been reluctant to spend my money on new releases, particularly those that promise much to come in some vague "near future". That mistake cost me twice, as i was forced to buy a second choice but more mature product to compensate.

I share the view that promised updates should be viewed with some degree of skepticism, and a lib should be considered as a complete purchase, i.e. You get what you pay for on the day.

I'm also skeptical of what seems to be a recent trend of releasing multi module where articulation components are spread across sections. Personally, and i definitely only speak for myself here, i will only consider a module approach that has complete articulations (all layers and script components of legato, all of staccato, and so on).

I don't really mind if there's fewer per module unit, ex. Legatos, Stacs, and Pizz in the first module, Flaut,Con sord and Sul Pont in the next, if they're complete. That at least gives me something to work with in the meantime, for at least some projects. But spreading velocity layers over more than one unit leaves me decidedly uneasy, particularly if the company has missed declared targets previously, and hasn't always managed customer queries in a reasonably satisfactory manner. Let's not forget the company already has the cash, and has already benefited from the customer's financial declaration of trust.

I'll be frank here, it also has that impression of deliberately selling you parts of a car, expecting the user to buy the lot before the set is complete, and the library use is available in it's entirety. On top of that, there's more work involved in trying to manage gaps in ranges, until the next module unit is released, a date where the user/customer is completely at the mercy/decision priority process of the company. The idea that i'll buy incomplete parts of a whole, and have to do more work as a result seems a bit odd. Surely i'm not the only one who thinks this is the case?

I don't buy into the whole "update in general" reasoning. Knowing the grand piano update is finally out gives me no warm glow if my promised grunge cowbells are STILL waiting for a fix, or to the already paid for mature state.


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## beeny (Feb 23, 2016)

I was actually the guy the OP was talking about who posted this on the Spitfire forum. It's one of the most viewed threads on that forum so I don't think we're alone in our frustrations. They recently made another assurance of an update on their Facebook page when a few of us expressed our concern regarding the new Sacconi set. Comments have been removed since then.
It may seem petty to keep harping on about it, but they genuinely promised that this product would be updated on numerous occasions. Even in the manual itself.
Here's a few quotes from the manual-

'As mentioned in our FAQ section, some of these articulations aren’t available on all the instruments (ie Pizz.
On the Viola). This is because we release our libraries whilst still in production. It enables us to garner from
you guys what still needs to be recorded, and allows us the flexibility of re-visiting some areas once it has been
use in anger by our user-base.
We will be implementing these “missing” articulations as quickly as we can whilst adding extra much-requested
techniques very soon.'

'We hope that Solo Strings too can enjoy this kind of fluid feedback that will keep our tool-sets
fresh and vibrant.
See you at v10.0!'

If they decided not to follow through on these statements they should have let us know so we could move on to other options. It may be one of their cheaper products but it still represents a significant cost to some of us.

Anyway, just wanted to back the OP up. His frustrations are, in my opinion, justified.


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## The Darris (Feb 23, 2016)

@beeny here is Spitfire's response just a little over a month ago.



Spitfire Team said:


> “Solo Strings is still scheduled to be ported over to the BML codebase. Work started on this a while back, but its a very fiddly and time intensive job, essentially a ground up rebuild. It will be updated, but we cannot give a date on this, as a commercial enterprise we have to allocate time and resources intelligently to stay in business.
> Since its release it has been updated several times. see here:
> 
> *Specific info on Solo Strings updates:*
> ...


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## beeny (Feb 23, 2016)

The Darris said:


> @beeny here is Spitfire's response just a little over a month ago.


I did notice that response but that doesn't really mean much at this point. They have frequently said similar things.
And if it is true that it will be a paid update I will be pretty annoyed. We have been waiting years for functionalities that were requested from the beginning, so why would we be expected to pay for them? 
If they deliver within this year and it is a free update to existing users I will happily rescind my statements and publicly praise them. Just doesn't seem likely at this point... I still buy the Labs stuff though- good cause and all that.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Feb 24, 2016)

beeny said:


> I did notice that response but that doesn't really mean much at this point. They have frequently said similar things.
> And if it is true that it will be a paid update I will be pretty annoyed. We have been waiting years for functionalities that were requested from the beginning, so why would we be expected to pay for them?
> If they deliver within this year and it is a free update to existing users I will happily rescind my statements and publicly praise them. Just doesn't seem likely at this point... I still buy the Labs stuff though- good cause and all that.



ok, Beeny, you made your point.

Now get on with your life.

It's our train set too......


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## beeny (Feb 24, 2016)

Silence-is-Golden said:


> ok, Beeny, you made your point.
> 
> Now get on with your life.


Woah... OK, I hope you get a kinder response next time you feel misled. Just voicing a legitimate concern that others have also shared. Will commence getting on with life.


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## rocking.xmas.man (Feb 24, 2016)

you should accept though that they indeed did what they Kind of announced. They added the 'missing' articulations for the viola. The most wanted Feature beside this was to have the legatos available with different mic positions so the other articulations are to be integrated without any Problems. At first they told us this would not come and later on they stated that they were actually thinking about adding this functionality and maybe add some other Things. It never seemed like this would be a ensured free update. It might turn out to come as a paid upgrade but they did not even say that this is for sure. What is for sure though is that they are going to recode the library to the bml codebase. This is what they actually mean with producing living libraries: if they invent new Features some of those might just get available for 'old' libraries.


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## JohnG (Feb 24, 2016)

Nobody likes whiners.


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## Vischebaste (Feb 25, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Nobody likes whiners.



Nobody likes people who moan about whiners.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Feb 25, 2016)

Vischebaste said:


> JohnG said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody likes whiners.
> ...



Nobody likes people who moan about people who moan about whiners


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Feb 25, 2016)

Nobody likes being constipated when they're suffering hemorrhoids.


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## Gabriel Oliveira (Feb 25, 2016)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> Nobody likes being constipated when they're suffering hemorrhoids.



that's terrible indeed


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## Vischebaste (Feb 25, 2016)

Gabriel Oliveira said:


> Nobody likes people who moan about people who moan about whiners



Nobody likes people who moan about people who moan about people who moan about whiners.


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## catsass (Feb 25, 2016)




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## jamwerks (Feb 25, 2016)

Imo SF knows that the market for solo strings is small. Adagio already has some (quite nice one's actually), Fluffy has some, and EW and Cinesamples have some coming. So we may not see any new solo strings form them in a while.


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## blougui (Feb 25, 2016)

Sacconi quarter are solo strings, aren't they ?


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## beeny (Feb 25, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Nobody likes whiners.


Wrong forum for taking Spitfire Audio to task clearly. I'll take my expectations elsewhere. I knew you guys were a little fundamentalist about Spitfire, but sheesh! Do they make good stuff? Yes. Did they string some customers along with this product? I still think they did. Whine over. Will come back when I have only positive things to say about a company.


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## prodigalson (Feb 25, 2016)

Actually, if you've got anything negative to say about East West our collective hive-mind usually LOVES to talk sh*t about them.

Otherwise, yes, only positive things about any other developers round these parts, thanks!


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## JohnG (Feb 25, 2016)

Glad the whining is over. If it is, in fact, over. It's not complaining as such that anyone minds but, at least for me, it's the exaggerated language and victimhood, as though this were the core of your or their business. If you find this situation so insupportable, I suggest you take a long look before continuing in the music business.


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## NYC Composer (Feb 25, 2016)

John, could you take a few minutes and cut and paste statements that you find to be egregious whining and hyperbolic victimization? I read through the thread and didn't see anything I would characterize in that way, but maybe I missed it.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Feb 25, 2016)

beeny said:


> Wrong forum for taking Spitfire Audio to task clearly. I'll take my expectations elsewhere. I knew you guys were a little fundamentalist about Spitfire, but sheesh! Do they make good stuff? Yes. Did they string some customers along with this product? I still think they did. Whine over. Will come back when I have only positive things to say about a company.


I do think you are very welcome here Beeny.
Here are 2 consideration and then I will not be joining this thread anymore:
1) of you have a difficulty with Spitfire Audio adress them, go to their company, write them an email or do something other then be like the millions of people who use the internet or forums like this to just complain, as if that helps anyone, and leave it at that.
Do something positive please.
2) which leads me to my second consideration, you are new at this forum, you posted 4 messages, and that means that almost all your posts since you got here are about this issue.
Is that how you want to contribute here?

Again: I think you can get a lot of whealth of knowledge and experience here, and if you have something if your own to contribute, or ask about you are very welcome.
But please, will you make the world a bit more fun for us all and join the positive direction?

So yes, if you find SA to not have been fair, take it to them and see what they do.

And then let us know what you have accomplished.

All the best to you.
( and I mean that!)


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## blougui (Feb 25, 2016)

Well beeny, sorry to read you're desappointed by both your purchase,your anticipation of it being upgraded to your liking and by the company you feel cheated on you as a customer.

I think VI-Control is not a place where you have to be positive about a company. It's rather a musician helping musician place. At least it's its motto and may be you forgot it.
So it's rather about savvy people helping each others to sort problems rather than being negative or positive about a purchase. Yes, VIC can stretch to this point and the commercial announcement might lead to these behaviors of attributing good or bad points.
But please, don't wait till you have something positive to say about a product, come back as soon as you need help or as soon as you can help one of your peers.
I'm sure you'll be very welcome, then.

Edit :oops, silenceisgolden beat me into that,sorry.
Erik


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## FriFlo (Feb 26, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Glad the whining is over. If it is, in fact, over. It's not complaining as such that anyone minds but, at least for me, it's the exaggerated language and victimhood, as though this were the core of your or their business. If you find this situation so insupportable, I suggest you take a long look before continuing in the music business.


But that is not the truth, unfortunately ... I see many calling out objectively for problems they have with a developer or product getting called whiners, which really makes this place less desirable. And it doesn't matter how much you are part of "the business"! Certainly, very busy composers have no time to complain about unsufficiancies or never delivered features from a $100-200 library. But does that mean other people have to be ridiculed for calling those out? No. They purchased the stuff, which probably was a lot of money for them. They have their right to call this out. Calling those people whiners and belittling them for their supposed lack of commercial success is telling me more about them, than the "whiners". It generates a fear of shitstorm for calling out problems and is therefore not what I want a forum to be like. Not only here on this forum, but generally speaking ...


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## Spitfire Team (Feb 26, 2016)

Hi FriFlo,

I'd be very happy for you to contact me personally re. this via our support desk. Our support team are also very keen to offer advice on how to get the best from our products alongside the many tutorials we have online at our YouTube channel.

Sorry I can't reply to the specifics of your complaint here but we have been shown that a hastily constructed sentence from my never ending passionate and evangelical stance (derived from my excitement as a composer of getting my hands on some pretty good samples over the last few years and pride in having been involved in that) can introduce a whole world of pain into my life further down the line. Which is sadly why Paul and I have withdrawn somewhat from participating here personally. It just gets too personal!

I guess its about growing up and learning about PR and the boring realities of running a business. Which, when you're looking after several families by having a small but not insignificant workforce of brilliant individuals and putting over 25% of our take back into the pockets of Musicians has to unfortunately be about the bottom line. 

On a more positive note, our pet project, The Labs has been a joy, when you don't charge people for stuff you just get a whole bunch nice things said back, it frees you up to experiment and have fun, oh and raise £100,000 of the Queen's pounds for Children's charities. I digress. I guess when the word "ethics" is used it gets me thinking... It has implications which don't fit and creates a bit of a cognitive dissonance within me.

Right... back into my hole.

Thanks as always for everyones support and all the lovely people I got to meet at NAMM who may hang out here. Look forward to seeing you the other side of our support desk FriFlo!

Christian.


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## beeny (Feb 26, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Glad the whining is over. If it is, in fact, over. It's not complaining as such that anyone minds but, at least for me, it's the exaggerated language and victimhood, as though this were the core of your or their business. If you find this situation so insupportable, I suggest you take a long look before continuing in the music business.


Sorry- have to respond. I'm not going to get into a 'who's bio is bigger than who's' competition. I've had some pretty pleasing success in the music business. And being that it is a business I'd rather the vendors I purchase from to follow through with their statements. I still consider 179 Pounds (roughly 350 AUD) an expense worth investigating.
But the real reason is that this library has such a beautiful sound- it's frustrating how amazing it could be!
Feel free to point out where I exaggerated.
I didn't find the situation 'unsupportable', I found it dishonest- or at the very least misleading. It doesn't keep me awake at night but I do get a reminder each time they release a new strings product.

I've been a long time reader of this forum but this is the first thread I've felt I had something to contribute to.

And regarding the advice given to take my concerns to Spitfire- I did (as mentioned by the OP), on their own company forum. And they stopped responding. I didn't even open this thread- just wanted to commiserate with others who did.

*Also- In the interest of positivity and objectivity, I'd like to thank Spitfire for the recent free Harpsichord and Cimbalom libraries. Didn't expect them and absolutely love 'em. *
As I said in a previous post- the labs project is really admirable.

*Note: I did not come back to continue 'whining'. This was self defence. Cheers to those who were a bit more... tolerant of my whining I guess? Will try to resist the urge to respond to JohnG again. If you genuinely want me to stop- you stop.


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## Vischebaste (Feb 26, 2016)

JohnG said:


> Glad the whining is over. If it is, in fact, over. It's not complaining as such that anyone minds but, at least for me, it's the exaggerated language and victimhood, as though this were the core of your or their business. If you find this situation so insupportable, I suggest you take a long look before continuing in the music business.



kof and beeny, it seems as though your father is very _disappointed_ in you.


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## FriFlo (Feb 26, 2016)

Spitfire Team said:


> Hi FriFlo,
> 
> I'd be very happy for you to contact me personally re. this via our support desk. Our support team are also very keen to offer advice on how to get the best from our products alongside the many tutorials we have online at our YouTube channel.
> 
> ...


???? Did I write anything about me having problems with any library? Christian, you will have to read through posts, when you answer them. Everything I wrote had to do with other members calling someone a whiner, because he is not happy with any product ... what the heck ...


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## JohnG (Feb 26, 2016)

As I suspected.


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## Silence-is-Golden (Feb 26, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> ???? Did I write anything about me having problems with any library? Christian, you will have to read through posts, when you answer them. Everything I wrote had to do with other members calling someone a whiner, because he is not happy with any product ... what the heck ...



What I read in this post from Christian is that these are man working in a business that has become a big side project alongside their daily composing work.
Not at all con artists that are looking for getting rich over our backs. I am not a naive person, for sure they will earn their money from SA, but I can fully understand that pleasing everyone is a difficult job, and that at a certain moment you withdraw from the negativity that comes your way from people that will never be satisfied. No matter what you do.
( this is my experience of dealing with people of all sorts of kinds in my profession)
So , all in all, everyone makes mistakes. We all also live with our own as well.
By all means adress mistakes, but dont make it your life's motto to look at someone elses mistakes.

There is a saying: .... Those who are without sin throw the first stone........

And now: thats all folks 
Go happlily forward in your life!!


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## mc_deli (Feb 27, 2016)

Spitfire Team said:


> Sorry I can't reply to the specifics of your complaint here but we have been shown that a hastily constructed sentence from my never ending passionate and evangelical stance (derived from my excitement as a composer of getting my hands on some pretty good samples over the last few years and pride in having been involved in that) can introduce a whole world of pain into my life further down the line. Which is sadly why Paul and I have withdrawn somewhat from participating here personally. It just gets too personal!
> 
> Christian.



I have a suggestion: please join in threads in the Mixing/post pro and member's compositions parts of the forum - rather than the sample talk/product stuff as that doesn't work for you.

Watching your new mixing vid and the track laying vid - that stuff is just incredibly informative. In the mixing/compositions threads is where we (the great unwashed) could benefit from your insight - especially on how to get the most out of SF libs obvs.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 27, 2016)

Spitfire Team said:


> Hi FriFlo,
> 
> I'd be very happy for you to contact me personally re. this via our support desk. Our support team are also very keen to offer advice on how to get the best from our products alongside the many tutorials we have online at our YouTube channel.
> 
> ...



I've seen that also backfire when it comes to free stuff.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 27, 2016)

FriFlo said:


> But that is not the truth, unfortunately ... I see many calling out objectively for problems they have with a developer or product getting called whiners, which really makes this place less desirable. And it doesn't matter how much you are part of "the business"! Certainly, very busy composers have no time to complain about unsufficiancies or never delivered features from a $100-200 library. But does that mean other people have to be ridiculed for calling those out? No. They purchased the stuff, which probably was a lot of money for them. They have their right to call this out. Calling those people whiners and belittling them for their supposed lack of commercial success is telling me more about them, than the "whiners". It generates a fear of shitstorm for calling out problems and is therefore not what I want a forum to be like. Not only here on this forum, but generally speaking ...



+1 Quality developers are always held to a higher standard by the end user no matter the price of the product.


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## kitekrazy (Feb 27, 2016)

beeny said:


> Wrong forum for taking Spitfire Audio to task clearly. I'll take my expectations elsewhere. I knew you guys were a little fundamentalist about Spitfire, but sheesh! Do they make good stuff? Yes. Did they string some customers along with this product? I still think they did. Whine over. Will come back when I have only positive things to say about a company.



What can one say other than "welcome to V.I. forums".


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## kitekrazy (Feb 27, 2016)

beeny said:


> Sorry- have to respond. I'm not going to get into a 'who's bio is bigger than who's' competition. I've had some pretty pleasing success in the music business. And being that it is a business I'd rather the vendors I purchase from to follow through with their statements. I still consider 179 Pounds (roughly 350 AUD) an expense worth investigating.
> But the real reason is that this library has such a beautiful sound- it's frustrating how amazing it could be!
> Feel free to point out where I exaggerated.
> I didn't find the situation 'unsupportable', I found it dishonest- or at the very least misleading. It doesn't keep me awake at night but I do get a reminder each time they release a new strings product.
> ...



You can always use the ignore feature. Some people have no clue what a prick they can be when someone is not satisfied. I see this in Steam gaming forums all of the time. He mentioned the "music business". Try a customer service industry and see how "nobody likes a whiner" works.


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