# Do you appreciate the use of choirs in soundtrack- and orchestral music?



## Crowe (Nov 27, 2020)

If there's one thing that's been driving me up the bloody wall these past few months, its listening to otherwise cool orchestral tracks that have been infiltrated by a mass of humans singing 'aaahaaaaahaaaaaah oooohhooooohoooooh'.

Then I bought 8Dio Anthology/Adagio this week and while listening to the demos I realized that pretty much **every other demo track* *features a choir just utterly ruining what could've been a good, illustrative orchestral track.

It's gotten to the point where I simply can't stand listening to music featuring choirs anymore.

Now with the Spitfire Black Collection having the EWC choir and people losing their heads about it I wonder...

How do you feel about choirs in your orchestral music?

_note: As may be obvious, I had no idea where to post this_


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## wickedw (Nov 27, 2020)

There's a time and place for them, as there is with any "instrument". There are soundtracks out there that feature choirs that are amazing and also some standalone pieces. There is also a significant bunch of music out there where it doesn't really work, or where it has just been slapped on as another layer of "epicness". Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't..


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## Traz (Nov 27, 2020)

There is definitely a place and time for choir.

Everywhere and ALL THE TIME!!

I'm guilty of using choirs a lot myself. I just really love them.

You probably won't want to hear what I've been working on lately.


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## cloudbuster (Nov 27, 2020)

wickedw said:


> There's a time and place for them, as there is with any "instrument". There are soundtracks out there that feature choirs that are amazing and also some standalone pieces. There is also a significant bunch of music out there where it doesn't really work, or where it has just been slapped on as another layer of "epicness". Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't..



Amen to that.

The following piece gives me serious goosebumps each and every time and together with the other demo made me buy Tutti Vox on the spot. YMMV.



Kudos to Sascha Knorr and Sonokinetic, especially for the aleatoric samples.


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## Geomir (Nov 27, 2020)

Take the LotR OST. Remove the choirs. Not good...


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## Crowe (Nov 27, 2020)

Geomir said:


> Take the LotR OST. Remove the choirs. Not good...



That may very well be true, but because of the choirs I don't like them as-is either .


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## Geomir (Nov 27, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> That my very well be true, but because of the choirs I don't like them as-is either .


LOL OK, then try to imagine O Fortuna without choirs! Can you?

(OK just kidding now!)


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## mikrokosmiko (Nov 27, 2020)

I like choirs when they sing actual words, or when they have a preponderant role in the composition. Pad choirs? I hate them almost always. Anyway, Im not into "epic orchestral", which I think is the main style that features this kind of sound


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## Consona (Nov 27, 2020)

wickedw said:


> There's a time and place for them, as there is with any "instrument". There are soundtracks out there that feature choirs that are amazing and also some standalone pieces. There is also a significant bunch of music out there where it doesn't really work, or where it has just been slapped on as another layer of "epicness". Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't..


This.

It's only this "modern epic (a.k.a. it's just loud)" genre that puts it everywhere because it brings just another layer of noise into the mix.
(Or Tom Cruise in a tuxedo is jumping across roofs → there needs to be an epic choir crescendo!!! )

But in pieces like Duel of the Fates or Foundations of Stone it adds pure awesomeness. 

Judicious composes and filmmakers should know when there's a reason for some choir. IIRC Williams wasn't even sure about putting a choir into Star Wars since it was not in the musical dictionary of those films, but Lucas wanted that quasi-religious feeling to the fate deciding fight between jedi and sith.

And of course you can't have a fight between two maiar where they both die without a proper epic choir. 

But Williams also used a choir in Jurassic Park, dunno what was his reason to do it there...


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## Crowe (Nov 27, 2020)

Consona said:


> This.
> 
> It's only this "modern epic (a.k.a. it's just loud)" genre that puts it everywhere because it brings just another layer of noise into the mix.
> (Or Tom Cruise in a tuxedo is jumping across roofs → there needs to be an epic choir crescendo!!! )
> ...



I added Duel of the Fates as a joke to the poll as I was reminded of it when I was thinking really hard about what choir-featuring music I can still tolerate. I think the use here is superb, for the exact reasons you indicated. It's not over-done, not constant and serves a purpose.

In a lot of instances, I think it simply adds too much 'organic quality' to a track. If you're going for 'otherworldly' I feel humans singing in tandem is the last thing you want to add to your composition.

Funilly enough, I went to check this and yes, the synthesized Choir in Chrono Trigger doesn't trigger me (hah) at all.


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## ReleaseCandidate (Nov 27, 2020)

Geomir said:


> LOL OK, then try to imagine O Fortuna without choirs! Can you?



That's fine by me, but imagine De temporum fine comoedia without.

Where is the "I just bought Insolidus 'cause sale and you better ignore my output for the following weeks if you don't like choirs"-alternative?


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## Crowe (Nov 27, 2020)

ReleaseCandidate said:


> That's fine by me, but imagine De temporum fine comoedia without.
> 
> Where is the "I just bought Insolidus 'cause sale and you better ignore my output for the following weeks if you don't like choirs"-alternative?



Had to shorten it, but there you go.


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## LudovicVDP (Nov 27, 2020)

I'm guilty of putting an instance of Oceania and/or Merethe on almost every track I compose 🙃 
But 95% of the time, I end up removing it because of the cliché feel I get from them when I'm past the "love" effect.


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## wickedw (Nov 27, 2020)

Consona said:


> But Williams also used a choir in Jurassic Park, dunno what was his reason to do it there...



The usage is more textural in nature in Jurassic Park. I always thought it was a reference to humans playing god. Also a bit of choir can bring across some more mysteriousness fairly easily.


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## LudovicVDP (Nov 27, 2020)

Edward Scissorhands (Elfman) and Ave Satani (Goldsmith)
Opposite styles, like heaven and hell. Both are great.

The epic choirs from epic braaamy trailer music.... Yeah... still love it. But so overused it's getting boring.
O' Fortuna is the perfect example of a monster track that has been ruined due to being used every-f*__*ng-time.

Edit: spelling


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Nov 27, 2020)

I'm more of a "no choirs" person. It mostly sounds cheap. But so does pretty much everything else in orchestral media music, so ... 🙃


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## stixman (Nov 27, 2020)

More Cowbell


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## Symfoniq (Nov 27, 2020)

It was a revelation to me when, as a kid, I first heard James Horner use the Boys Choir of Harlem in the soundtrack to "Glory." Since then, many of my favorite film cues have used choirs ("You Are The Pan" from Hook being one hidden gem that springs to mind; and "Baba Yetu" from the video game genre).

But yes, "epic" choirs are overused nowadays.

Even so, there are things the human voice can evoke that nothing else can.


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## Haziel (Nov 27, 2020)

Oh yes! I've always loved choir music and I tend to add it even when it's not needed. I think choirs are an essential part of fantasy music.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 27, 2020)

A song that can’t be made better by adding a choir does not exist.

Change my mind.

:emoji_coffee:


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## Crowe (Nov 27, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> A song that can’t be made better by adding a choir does not exist.
> 
> Change my mind.
> 
> :emoji_coffee:



I would, but I've been taught you can't reason with crazy people <3.


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## CT (Nov 27, 2020)

Yeah I like it when it's good instead of just shoehorned in for dopey dramatic effect.


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## Leeward (Nov 27, 2020)

I don't quite understand what you're talking about, so please put me right.

You're saying that you don't like choir within a mix of other instruments/ensembles?

Is that not like me saying that I don't like woodwinds in a mix?

Or are you saying there's an over-reliance on choirs to beef up a track?

EDIT:

I just noticed the poll. So you are treating choir as any other instrument/section?

I don't get it.


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## Trash Panda (Nov 27, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> I would, but I've been taught you can't reason with crazy people <3.


Come at me, crow! 🤣


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## Crowe (Nov 27, 2020)

Leeward said:


> I don't quite understand what you're talking about, so please put me right.
> 
> You're saying that you don't like choir within a mix of other instruments/ensembles?
> 
> ...



Indeed, I am speaking of choirs within a mix of 'other instruments'. I find the 'choir' to be the odd one out here as it has a distinct human quality that I do not appreciate.

I don't quite see how it's the same as 'not liking woodwinds', the choir is not an integral part of a symphonic orchestra, I feel. It seems rather 'extra'.


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## Leeward (Nov 28, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> Indeed, I am speaking of choirs within a mix of 'other instruments'. I find the 'choir' to be the odd one out here as it has a distinct human quality that I do not appreciate.
> 
> I don't quite see how it's the same as 'not liking woodwinds', the choir is not an integral part of a symphonic orchestra, I feel. It seems rather 'extra'.



Ok, I understand. However, unless you really are a complete purist, surely you must feel the same way about any other instrument that does not belong in the standard symphony?

I'm really not trying to be antagonistic - please don't think that - I'm just curious as to why you think something that is just as much an adjunct as anything else (a guitar, an ironing board) could be so detrimental to a mix.

Do you not like choir at all?


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## Crowe (Nov 28, 2020)

Leeward said:


> Ok, I understand. However, unless you really are a complete purist, surely you must feel the same way about any other instrument that does not belong in the standard symphony?
> 
> I'm really not trying to be antagonistic - please don't think that - I'm just curious as to why you think something that is just as much an adjunct as anything else (a guitar, an ironing board) could be so detrimental to a mix.
> 
> Do you not like choir at all?



As I said in my previous post, I dislike the choir because it is organic. It is human. It has nothing to do with 'standards'.

Perhaps I find ironing boards less obnoxious than the human voice.


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## Leeward (Nov 28, 2020)

Interesting perspective but ok, fine. Each to their own.


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## TGV (Nov 28, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> A song that can’t be made better by adding a choir does not exist.
> 
> Change my mind.
> 
> :emoji_coffee:


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## Nils Neumann (Nov 28, 2020)

TGV said:


>


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## TGV (Nov 28, 2020)

Nils Neumann said:


> ...


Sorry. I didn't know cat choirs also counted. Then I would have shut up. I'm looking forward to Ein katzenartiges Requiem, and Lord Of The Cats.


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## Tinesaeriel (Nov 30, 2020)

I definitely fall between "GIMME ALL THE CHOIRS" and "A time and place for the singin' peeps," but I absolutely love choir in orchestral music, especially in the fantasy genre, a genre for which I am a huge nerd. I especially love the way James Newton Howard incorporates choirs into his scores and music:



Sure, it doesn't sound like it necessarily "fits" the a traditional orchestra, but choirs and orchestra have been around since the movie musical. Besides, it's humans playing instruments in an orchestra; for choir, they're just using their voices as another instrument. That's how I see it, anyway.

For myself, choir adds just a layer of - majesty to an orchestral piece, a lot of weight and depth; grandiosity; an operatic tone that I honestly love to bits.


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## Nate Johnson (Nov 30, 2020)

My favorite use of choir is when it stands alone - like Harmony Of The Spheres (Franssens)

But I also like it mixed with orchestra in the right way, like Venus (Holst, The Planets).

Soundtrack wise, its got its place I guess, but I’m burnt on it. I even have a hard time when I hear Duel of Fates!


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## Crowe (Nov 30, 2020)

Well, it's good to know that after all these years I'm still the crazy one. I'd been getting worried ^^.

I'm happy that there's a general consensus. I may have to learn to use choir after all.

EDIT: @The Serinator I'd apologize but I have it on good authority that I can't be reasoned with.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 30, 2020)

You are not crazy, relax. The "consensus" is formed by people who don't really have enough of a repertoire. Do you realize how many people in here listen mainly to f**king film music? Or worse genres even? Schumann used to say he only cared for the opinion of the experts.

You can use a choir if you have a good reason for it. It calls too much attention to itself, it is not simply another color in the palette. Don't do anything that Beethoven wouldn't. Look at Bach's cantatas and oratorios as models of accompanying with instruments a choir that is front and center. By the way, Mahler's symphonies are great but they are not symphonies, they are symphonic poems.

Ravel used a choir in Daphnis et Chloé, but that is his ninth symphony. No choirs elsewhere in his orchestral music. But today any Joe thinks "oh I know, I will add a choir to this and it will be great"...

The addition of a choir to that well-known fanfare before many of the best films... was not an improvement at all. I am saddened when I hear it.

A choir is not an epicness tool. A choir is certainly not part of an orchestra. You can bring one in, but it had better be on your ninth symphony. People have no sense anymore.

I am talking about orchestral music. There is also choral music. You can use a choir in choral music, nobody will find that strange, not even me. Choral music is a good thing. Nobody will accuse a choir of calling too much attention to itself in choral music. Choral music can use instruments, several even, but usually that does not require the same level of playing. Faure's Requiem is a good example of this.

Again, people using a 60-person choir as just a color in an otherwise orchestral composition is evidently in bad taste, usually together with many other things that are also in bad taste. If the sound is over the top all the time then it loses its """epicness"""". Size is measured by contrast. Woodwind heavy, quiet passages is what will make your 4 french horns epic. You are already on a bad path if you think you need 6. 8 french horns and you are almost certainly a douche. There is no sense in buying that 12-horn patch, it will make your music worse, not better.

If Stravinsky did not need a choir for Le Sacre, and Varése did not need a choir for Amériques, why do YOU need one? Are you sure???

Look at Debussy's Sirenes for a great example of using a choir in an orchestra. It is given its due importance yet again.

These people haven't heard these things. Their model is Edward Scissorhands. They might argue Edward needs the choir, there is no way to do Edward without the choir. They are wrong and lacking imagination, of course. If Stravinsky did not need a choir for Petrushka then Edward Scissorhands does not need a choir. Especially when the lyrics do not make much sense.

"It was never just a color due to cost and only due to cost. Now that we write this stuff in our computers pretending this could be great art, the cost is gone and the choir becomes just a color". I hear someone saying this. Of course not! If you start losing all the practical reality aspects of music that was always acoustic and shunned microphones, you are actually limiting yourself. Why then you should drop all these instruments and become a great synthesizer programmer. Make concrete music or electronic or whatever it's called now. Use sound. But if you bring an orchestra into that, and you don't behave, well, it is like using sleigh bells outside of Christmas or something. You are referencing something that has a certain meaning, but you are using the words out of place, out of order, it makes no sense. You sound like Mr. Bean when he said "...no pun intended" and there really was no pun to be seen anywhere.

Many people don't even believe in taste anymore. Taste can be discussed and can be acquired. Music, as a cultural object, is subject to study and discussion and one should grow as a listener over time. But many people think it is just a matter of "I heard it once and didn't like it". Sorry, that's just not how this art works. My own taste suffered a few revolutions as I understood the music of different times. I was sure that Schoenberg was garbage, now I know why he is a genius. But what I wrote above about choirs in orchestral music... that never changed.

Is it conceivable that someone might use a choir and an orchestra in a new way and be great? Yes, it is conceivable, because we haven't heard all the music yet. Has it been happening? No way.


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## VivianaSings (Nov 30, 2020)

It's for people who have no idea how to orchestrate or write correctly.

A lot of people write music as if they took all the text in a paragraph and bolded it. And then realized that when you bold everything, nothing stands out. So you need to be able to take that bold text and make certain words even more bold-er-er. So they bold the bold text and keep this up until like the over-bolded text, their music resembles a black blob with no discernable words.

Of course a lot of modern film scoring is responsible for this trend as there's no shortage of big names in the film score world that have demonstrated no actual ability to write and rely on constantly adding more and more to achieve the "epicness" that they're not able to achieve because of their lack of talent and ability to write and orchestrate compelling music.

That's how you end up with people thinking that 4 trumpets in unison, 8 bass trombones, a choir, 8 french horns, and a braam all holding a single chord while underscored with some war drums is how you achieve hugeness.

The only time I've ever found a choir to actually be effective in film music was the careful use of the aleatoric choir from Ligeti's Requiem in "2001: A Space Odyssey".


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## Traz (Nov 30, 2020)

Looks like the no fun police showed up.


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## jbuhler (Nov 30, 2020)

Traz said:


> Looks like the no fun police showed up.


But a good rant should also be appreciated.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 30, 2020)

Traz said:


> Looks like the no fun police showed up.



That's not fair at all. By all means have fun. Not what I am saying. I have a lot of fun with music, probably more than you. You can scratch what you wrote there, it's nonsense.

However, orthogonally to having fun or not, there is something in music: It can be a real powerful experience. It can change someone's life. It can be a profound revelation, it can be the truest thing that you ever heard, it can make Chopin a better friend to you than all your real friends.

Adding a choir to your string-ostinato-driven cliché will certainly not create the effect I am talking about.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 30, 2020)




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## Nando Florestan (Nov 30, 2020)

Here are a few pieces one could strive to be able to write, before using a choir with an orchestra.






Notice how much fun these composers are having, and causing us to have. Notice how these composers never thought, "oh I know what we need now -- a freaking CHOIR shouting to make it more epic!"

I cannot write anything close to those pieces, so I will not write for orchestra with choir.


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## Toecutter (Nov 30, 2020)

Nando Florestan said:


>



Sorry but this is the dumbest video I've seen in a while. "Modernity Sucks" lmao what an edgelord!


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 30, 2020)

You know what is much more profound, much more meaningful, than the Jurassic Park score?

A track like this:


Notice how he didn't use a choir there. He used contrast instead. The orchestra is used with a great imagination. You can almost hear a choir inside the orchestra at the climax. Notice how cheap it would sound if there were an actual choir there.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 30, 2020)

Toecutter said:


> Sorry but this is the dumbest video I've seen in a while. "Modernity Sucks" lmao what an edgelord!



I also did not care for the "modernity sucks" motto. However, the demonstration of the changes that have been happening for 3 decades in Hollywood film music, this epicness fallacy, which mirrors the loudness fallacy in pop or EDM, and the way these things are already totally played out and impossible to continue, was pretty compelling. But it does continue, and I don't know, it must be because the powers that be do not listen to real music.


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## jbuhler (Nov 30, 2020)

With all the musical hills to die on, choir with orchestra is not one I’d choose, though as I mentioned I like a good rant.

Historically, it’s not even that uncommon as a choice and in the context of cinema choirs are reasonably common throughout the history of sound film.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 30, 2020)

I think the question is, whenever choir appeared with orchestra in film, how often did it elevate the thing, and how often did it cheapen it.

Mary Poppins I do like. The Sound of Music, Alexander Nevsky, Empire of the Sun. Little else. What do these have in common? I would say composition. There's a composer behind it, someone who understands it cannot be simplistic, it gotta have multiple events happening at the same time, because simultaneity is at the core of this art. If you are just playing D minor triads in almost homophonic writing, adding a choir certainly does not save the thing from being boring.

I cannot remember a Bernard Herrmann score that used a choir. I must be wrong, but I cannot remember one. He did prefer weird ensembles of woodwinds and brass. It's a part of what made him great.


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## Nando Florestan (Nov 30, 2020)

VivianaSings said:


> The only time I've ever found a choir to actually be effective in film music was the careful use of the aleatoric choir from Ligeti's Requiem in "2001: A Space Odyssey".



Again, the choir is not just one color in the palette, it is front and center, at least equal to the orchestra. In classical music the choir was never just one color that you can add to your computer orchestra...


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## CT (Nov 30, 2020)

VivianaSings said:


> The only time I've ever found a choir to actually be effective in film music was the careful use of the aleatoric choir from Ligeti's Requiem in "2001: A Space Odyssey".



There's nothing aleatoric about the Kyrie from Ligeti's Requiem.

Please try to have an idea of how to orchestrate and write correctly before posting!


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## JohnG (Nov 30, 2020)

some pretty funny posts; not sure in every case who's kind of joking and who's serious.

Part of it is definitely to have a change; if you have to write 80 minutes of music in no time flat it can be a nice detour. What I like best is when I'm writing for choir with orchestral accompaniment, or at least when a singer / the choir has a major part to play. 

When it's just stapled on -- yuck. Although sometimes producers ask for it.Doubling the brass with oohs and aahs is not my favourite and makes music sound "yesteryear."


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## jbuhler (Nov 30, 2020)

Nando Florestan said:


> Again, the choir is not just one color in the palette, it is front and center, at least equal to the orchestra. In classical music the choir was never just one color that you can add to your computer orchestra...


The choir has some very particular cultural associations. It can inflate the mass of sound to be sure. But most uses of choir, certainly epic cinematic ones, draw on these associations pretty explicitly. That’s why you have directors and producers asking for the sound.

if I was going to complain about something in the cinematic epic sound though it would be the infernal drums and trailer hits. Not that I don’t like a good trailer hit. I just wish they were used a bit more sparingly.


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## Fenicks (Nov 30, 2020)

If a song is written around a choir: yes.

If not: meh.

The choirs in The Lord of the Rings scores are wonderful and used primarily to characterize Elvish culture in the music (and their corruption as Uruk-hai and orcs). Their presence also embodies the Music of the Ainur of Middle Earth mythology. Bite me.


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## Crowe (Dec 1, 2020)

Nobody is dying on Choir-hill. Except maybe me.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 1, 2020)

Shiirai said:


> Nobody is dying on Choir-hill. Except maybe me.



My words did nothing to convince anyone. I feel like I only preached to the choir, so to speak. In this thread I have been completely serious, by the way. No exaggeration, no sarcasm.

Words cannot make up for an entire life ignoring the work of the great geniuses in classical music. So when I talk about taste, people doubt I am being serious.

If you are writing orchestral music without any principle of economy of means, sorry, your music is in bad taste. "But there's no cost in a computer". That's irrelevant. The economy of means is for elegance in the composition, not just to cut costs. And this economy of means always existed in great music. Do not reach for 2 french horns when 2 bassoons will do, and do not reach for a freaking choir when the violas can have a better effect.

Nobody commented when I pointed out a choir-like sound is generated from certain orchestral tuttis, and the effect is much more impressive than adding an actual choir. I wished for a more sophisticated conversation... If you want to hear this, try the last movement of Debussy's "La Mer". Then if you figure out where the fake choir is coming from, please teach it to me, I really want to know.

The lady there said "aleatoric", so someone held on to the word and totally ignored her actual point. We are dealing with egos here... I wrote many paragraphs but instead of people pointing out the errors and mistakes in those, today they mark the post with a laugh and are done. I feel that's an insult and what's more, it is irrational.

We can die in Choir Hill together, and be proud of it. Let the rest of them go back to their "Scaler 2"-infected compositional practice...


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## LudovicVDP (Dec 1, 2020)

Nando Florestan said:


> The "consensus" is formed by people who don't really have enough of a repertoire. Do you realize how many people in here listen mainly to f**king film music? Or worse genres even? Schumann used to say he only cared for the opinion of the experts.





Nando Florestan said:


> These people haven't heard these things. Their model is Edward Scissorhands. They might argue Edward needs the choir, there is no way to do Edward without the choir. They are wrong and lacking imagination, of course




Yeah... How ignorant, wrong and lacking imagination am I talking about Edward Scissorhands... Obviously the only f**king music I listen to. You got me!

Man... I first hoped this was all sarcastic or something. But it appears it was not...
I like a good rant and if I try hard (I'm not smart you know) I can even understand what your point is.
...but the way it's put is just plain insult.

I hope you are happy up there, looking down on us...

Edit: spelling


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## Consona (Dec 1, 2020)

Toecutter said:


> Sorry but this is the dumbest video I've seen in a while. "Modernity Sucks" lmao what an edgelord!


Nah. It's true. Modernity really sucks.


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 1, 2020)

jbuhler said:


> The choir has some very particular cultural associations. It can inflate the mass of sound to be sure. But most uses of choir, certainly epic cinematic ones, draw on these associations pretty explicitly. That’s why you have directors and producers asking for the sound.



Composers need to say "no" more often. I just saw Harrison Ford telling that time when he said something like "That's a great speech you wrote. I am not gonna do it. I can express it with one look". Film composers can only call themselves artists insofar as the musical integrity of their work can be preserved in the face of such unreasonably specific demands from the powers that be. Something like "The choir is a great idea. I am not gonna do it. Soft trombones can evoke a religious atmosphere just as well for those 16 seconds that we are talking about."

Further, if you always reach for the established cultural associations, then you'll never create a new one, like JW did in Jaws. I don't suppose a french horn evokes hunting as much as it did in the 19th Century, why is that?


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 1, 2020)

LudovicVDP said:


> Yeah... How ignorant, wrong and lacking imagination am I talking about Edward Scissorhands... Obviously the only f**king music I listen to. You got me!



Look, I honestly did not think that of you or anyone specifically, since more often than not, people surprise me and put me in my place with what they know and I do not. However, my message here is an arrogant one: that film music is being done the wrong way for almost 3 decades now in Hollywood. There's no way to avoid the arrogant nature of this opinion, and if people really are using choirs for accompaniment of their spiccato ostinato driven pieces, I don't know what else to think, other than, maybe they haven't heard enough Bach cantatas.

Again, I do expect to be corrected where I am wrong -- as always happens -- and I will learn from it.

Also, it is likely that I should apologize for the way I say things. It won't be the first time, believe me. But the opinion itself, well, I tried to make the best argument for it, and you did not refute any of that, you just said I am arrogant. Well I am sorry, but there it is.


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## jazzman7 (Dec 1, 2020)

Adding Choir is like soft butter to me. Easily spreadable and tastes great, but too much can ruin things


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## LudovicVDP (Dec 1, 2020)

Nando Florestan said:


> Look, I honestly did not think that of you or anyone specifically, since more often than not, people surprise me and put me in my place with what they know and I do not. However, my message here is an arrogant one: that film music is being done the wrong way for almost 3 decades now in Hollywood. There's no way to avoid the arrogant nature of this opinion, and if people really are using choirs for accompaniment of their spiccato ostinato driven pieces, I don't know what else to think, other than, maybe they haven't heard enough Bach cantatas.
> 
> Again, I do expect to be corrected where I am wrong -- as always happens -- and I will learn from it.



Hi

I simply think there is a difference between 
"I don't like how film music is made" -> That we can happily debate about 
and 
"you are all f*cking stupid and you only listen to this so what do you know?"

That's sad actually because I could definitely agree with you on some points.

But ok. I'm cooling off. I reacted a bit too hard as I took it personally with the Edward's reference.

Cheers


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 1, 2020)

LudovicVDP said:


> Edward Scissorhands (Elfman) and Ave Satani (Goldsmith)
> Opposite styles, like heaven and hell. Both are great.
> 
> The epic choirs from epic braaamy trailer music.... Yeah... still love it. But so overused it's getting boring.
> O' Fortuna is the perfect example of a monster track that has been ruined due to being used every-f*__*ng-time.



See, I have no quarrel with what you wrote. I mostly agree. I have a conflicted opinion of the Edward Scissorhands score, it is great and bad at the same time. This opinion is not important, it is beside my main point.


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## jazzman7 (Dec 1, 2020)

How many generations back have people been saying stuff about "The kids nowadays"? The major commercially driven Cinema will stampede after fashion...Eventually, they shift as new innovators come along


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## Nando Florestan (Dec 1, 2020)

I do not understand the presence of fashion in the seventh art. It seems myopic even financially speaking. Why don't you teach me about this: A flop such as Blade Runner lost money in the first year(s), but being one of the most important movies ever made, isn't it true that it's going to generate revenue for 80 years or so? Why don't they ever talk about this looong tail? I don't think it is negligible as they would have us believe... The store owner never says business is good, right?


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## Crowe (Dec 1, 2020)

Nando Florestan said:


> I do not understand the presence of fashion in the seventh art. It seems myopic even financially speaking. Why don't you teach me about this: A flop such as Blade Runner lost money in the first year(s), but being one of the most important movies ever made, isn't it true that it's going to generate revenue for 80 years or so? Why don't they ever talk about this looong tail? I don't think it is negligible as they would have us believe... The store owner never says business is good, right?



I'm going to keep this short as it has little to do with the discussion at hand, but I do agree with this sentiment. The problem is that 'Businesses' eventually enter a 'meta'. Hollywood is an important example of this. 'Opening weekend' is apparently the be-all-end-all of metrics and by all accounts that doesn't make a lick of sense. The 'long tail' you speak of is hardly ever mentioned on high-level, but when you look deeper you see that other production houses actually bank on it.

Apparently currently, Hollywood is percieved to be 'dying' as it can't handle the new 'world-meta' of not going out to cinemas.

I am sharply reminded of K-pop, where 'Comebacks', 'initial cd-sales' and big voting rounds decide the success of artists and groups, which to me sounds ridiculously arbitrary but it's what the 'market-meta' was built on.

I think that the most important word in all this is 'arbitrary'.

And honestly Choirs have nothing to do with this. Except I agree that they're usually used arbitrarily.


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## I like music (Dec 1, 2020)

Goldsmith was doing Epic-with-choirs before children with computers started doing Epic.


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## CT (Dec 1, 2020)

Nando Florestan said:


> The lady there said "aleatoric", so someone held on to the word and totally ignored her actual point.



Hello, "someone" here. Perhaps you and VivianSinger can try being less laughably haughty in your posts if you'd prefer I not laugh.


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2020)

I'm not sure everyone typing here gets the notion of "director" or "producer," in relation to "composer." We certainly ought to have sincere, developed opinions about music. It's also fair for us to propose, even argue a bit if we think something is artistically over-used or tiresome.

But I, at least, am no Harrison Ford. I think my job at times is to try to understand why they are asking for something and what I can do that substitutes something a bit less hackneyed that, nevertheless, does what they want.

*It's Not a Symphony...*

Most of us are actually on a project for a fraction of the time that the people who hire us are on it. Video games take four years of sometimes thousands of people. Films sometimes get developed over an even longer time. Television? Those people work themselves to death (as do we).

And furthermore, as creative people who come in at the end, we sometimes can, graciously, offer a fresh perspective on a scene or even the whole project.

*...And PhDs Not Required*

As the last (usually) to join the team, we are collaborators, not dictators. I think my job is sometimes to throw out everything I ever learned about music, from bar bands to Buxtehude, and try to "start over" from my colleagues' or the audience's point of view.

But to return to points others have made, when an "epic" choir shows up, one has to be careful that it's not inadvertently creating a parody.


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## I like music (Dec 1, 2020)

We have also to keep in mind that choir sample libraries are considerably, considerably, more limited than what a real choir can do. So of course, if you do use a sampled choir, it'll do a fraction of a fraction of what a real choir can do. I'm sure that limits your ability to write _for_ the virtual choir, so you often chuck it on as a colour. But of course, you paid big dollars for the library, so you have to show your significant-other that you are in fact using what you purchased.


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2020)

I like music said:


> if you do use a sampled choir, it'll do a fraction of a fraction of what a real choir can do.



Sadly, true. Same for all samples, alas. Somehow the more simple the music, the less convincing. It can lead to over-orchestrating.

However, for me it was the Year of the Choir. I am using choir libraries from so many sources, old and new (or new to me) -- Spitfire, East West, Strezov primarily but Olympus and others are lurking around. For color, Strezov adds so many thing, and Eric Whitacre's choir library is so elaborate and has so many unexpected ideas (unexpected for a sample library, I mean) that I keep stumbling across patches and thinking, "I can't believe they sampled _that!"_ 

I wrote a piece that's really all about the choir which incorporates five or six libraries from different companies and I can't wait to have it released. Took quite some time to program!! It has live strings but because of Covid I didn't want to risk anyone getting sick, so the rest had to remain electronic.

[note: I have received free products from East West and Strezov Sampling]


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## I like music (Dec 1, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Sadly, true. Same for all samples, alas. Somehow the more simple the music, the less convincing. It can lead to over-orchestrating.
> 
> However, for me it was the Year of the Choir. I am using choir libraries from so many sources, old and new (or new to me) -- Spitfire, East West, Strezov primarily but Olympus and others are lurking around. For color, Strezov adds so many thing, and Eric Whitacre's choir library is so elaborate and has so many unexpected ideas (unexpected for a sample library, I mean) that I keep stumbling across patches and thinking, "I can't believe they sampled _that!"_
> 
> ...



Aye, true of all instruments as you say, and maybe I'm wrong, but do you think it is moreso the case for choirs? Maybe its because I only have a few sampled choirs, and almost never have occasion to write for them, that I _feel_ that they are behind (so I haven't tested them enough). 

Also, I guess our ears are so well tuned to the human voice, that anything slightly dodgy will get picked up much more easily even by the average ear. I like to think of a modelled violin or trumpet fooling the average ear, but a modelled voice not being able to do the same in a musical context.


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2020)

I like music said:


> I guess our ears are so well tuned to the human voice, that anything slightly dodgy will get picked up much more easily even by the average ear.



No doubt you have put your finger on it. That said, the expressiveness of choir libraries has leapt in recent years. People are really trying. And the new rendition of choirs from East West has a much-improved word builder, so that helped me.


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## nolotrippen (Dec 1, 2020)

When I think of movies where the choir was integral to the movie, it seems it was a time when it was NOT being used in everything (so before samples 😉). Rozas' Biblical epics, Nascimbene's The Vikings, John Barry's Lion in Winter and Last Valley, Goldsmith's Omen series. Now I kind of cringe when I hear them as they're used as much as epic percussion effects. Gee, I'm getting old.


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## jbuhler (Dec 1, 2020)

nolotrippen said:


> When I think of movies where the choir was integral to the movie, it seems it was a time when it was NOT being used in everything (so before samples 😉). Rozas' Biblical epics, Nascimbene's The Vikings, John Barry's Lion in Winter and Last Valley, Goldsmith's Omen series. Now I kind of cringe when I hear them as they're used as much as epic percussion effects. Gee, I'm getting old.


Choir is not used everywhere even today. It is used quite commonly in a certain kind of film/TV/Game that has proved to be quite popular. The infernal drums/percussion are much more common than they once were and extend across far more genres to the point that you are almost surprised when they aren't there.


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## I like music (Dec 1, 2020)

JohnG said:


> No doubt you have put your finger on it. That said, the expressiveness of choir libraries has leapt in recent years. People are really trying. And the new rendition of choirs from East West has a much-improved word builder, so that helped me.



Right. A friend of mine did a quick thing using the old EW choirs, once. He really put his back into it, and man, you could actually tell what the choir was singing. It was mega impressive. He did say it took a _lot_ of crafting though. 

And there was a demo posted here by someone using the new EW choir which blew some minds - I wish I could find it. I definitely have my eye on that for the word-building capabilities. And Genesis + Dominus have (in the right context) the ability to do some amazing things. So yeah, I'll gladly welcome improvements in choir technology, because choir is an 'instrument' which deserves to have the very best virtual instruments representing it.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 1, 2020)

I'm just going to leave this piece inspired by this thread right here.


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## I like music (Dec 1, 2020)

The Serinator said:


> I'm just going to leave this piece inspired by this thread right here.



I ... wha ...


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2020)

I like music said:


> And there was a demo posted here by someone using the new EW choir which blew some minds - I wish I could find it.



The new EW wordbuilder requires far, far less tweaking to get intelligible words.


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## I like music (Dec 1, 2020)

JohnG said:


> The new EW wordbuilder requires far, far less tweaking to get intelligible words.



Please don't say things like that. Especially not around BF.


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## JohnG (Dec 1, 2020)

I like music said:


> Please don't say things like that. Especially not around BF.



[creepy whisper] "...it's only a few hundred..."


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## ReleaseCandidate (Dec 2, 2020)

Well, I actually have Really Bad News(TM) for all of you: you ain't even the first in the misuse of choirs and orchestras, there exists genres of music that did (and do!) that since quite some centuries! And who's to blame? Some maniac called 'Il Zazzerino'! 
But then again operas and operettas use music to support the acting of some people on stage, so maybe they have nothing in common with music that only exists to support moving pictures?


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## Divico (Dec 2, 2020)

I realized that the typical epic music/trailers that always throw in choirs in the last climax strted to annoy me. It’s very generic (as probably most of this music)


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## pmcrockett (Dec 2, 2020)

I like music said:


> And there was a demo posted here by someone using the new EW choir which blew some minds - I wish I could find it.


Was it the one I posted here?


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## I like music (Dec 2, 2020)

pmcrockett said:


> Was it the one I posted here?



YES!!! This was the one. I loved it, because it just sounded like you were in a church listening to this. Sounded pretty authentic to my ear. Also, your composition? Because it was superb!

I'm going to read through the whole explanation in more detail, and given that you shared that file, may just get CC for a month to check this out. BTW what reverb/hall settings were these? If you didn't have to do a lot of processing, then even more impressive.


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## Laddy (Dec 2, 2020)

Enjoy, folks!


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## [email protected] (Dec 2, 2020)

Nando Florestan said:


> Here are a few pieces one could strive to be able to write, before using a choir with an orchestra.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...



I see your point. Beeing a historical musicologist and very fond especially of the first half of the last century's music I feel your frustration seeing that a lot of music you love and value is ignored or discarded by people who cheerish music which originally derived from that root and was even written by the same composers (Korngold, Vaughan Williams etc.) and then became "undermined".
But I won't judge people here because I am not sure if they are really as ignorant as you accused them to be.

To a certain limit I share your point of view but I draw a different conclusion. Of course I will never be as good as Schreker, Ravel or Mahler or Berg, not as original and brilliant as Ives, Strawinsky and Schönberg and not "even" as good as Paul von Klenau, Reynaldo Hahn or Paul Graener. So why write music in the first place? Why doing music if you don't have to "add" something to the repertoire?
Well, because I enjoy it in my freetime. Not only listening to it but also "making" it. And if I would like to throw in a choir at some point - why not? Why just crave in because I will never be a sgood as Zemlinsky and forbid myself enjoying to create and listen to what I created. Maybe share it with some people if they are interested.

Of course, if I should write for a movie (even a small student's film) or a friend would ask me to write something for him/her I would really try to give my best, to not play along with the generic stuff, but when I open on a friday evening a little Cubase project in which I tried out several things and like them and have the feeling that a choir would fit in then I would never forbid it to myself because Ravel only used one in _Daphnis and Chloe_.


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## pmcrockett (Dec 2, 2020)

I like music said:


> YES!!! This was the one. I loved it, because it just sounded like you were in a church listening to this. Sounded pretty authentic to my ear. Also, your composition? Because it was superb!
> 
> I'm going to read through the whole explanation in more detail, and given that you shared that file, may just get CC for a month to check this out. BTW what reverb/hall settings were these? If you didn't have to do a lot of processing, then even more impressive.


Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it!

The reverb is the Hamburg Cathedral C TS FR 2.2s preset from Spaces (0 dbFS dry, -11.6 dbFS wet, as an insert on the master channel). There's not that much processing on the whole thing. I have some analog emulation on each channel, and then the reverb, a bit of EQ, some compression, and tape emulation on the master track. Most of what makes it work is the extremely detailed wordbuidler programming.

If you happen to use Reaper, I can hook you up with the actual project file.


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## I like music (Dec 2, 2020)

pmcrockett said:


> Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
> 
> The reverb is the Hamburg Cathedral C TS FR 2.2s preset from Spaces (0 dbFS dry, -11.6 dbFS wet, as an insert on the master channel). There's not that much processing on the whole thing. I have some analog emulation on each channel, and then the reverb, a bit of EQ, some compression, and tape emulation on the master track. Most of what makes it work is the extremely detailed wordbuidler programming.
> 
> If you happen to use Reaper, I can hook you up with the actual project file.



Wow, I'd absolutely love to see that Reaper file. I got the trial a couple of weeks ago (only spent a couple of hours on it) but am going to give it a real go this weekend. Many thanks for your help!


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## jazzman7 (Dec 2, 2020)

pmcrockett said:


> Was it the one I posted here?


Amazing Work!


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## [email protected] (Dec 5, 2020)

I would be very interested in what @Nando Florestan and the OP (and all others) think about this score which I consider one of the greatest written within the last decades. It has a lot of choir work (with nonsense text) but I appreciate it at all levels!


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