# Berlin Brass vs Spitfire Brass



## zeng (Sep 30, 2016)

Well...I watched Berlin Brass video with Sascha's beautiful composition, and looked at the articulations PDF. I also watched and listened Spitfire Brass Symphony and got really confused. I think Berlin has more legato types and articulations but honestly what do you think? Which one do you think to buy and/or use?


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## mac (Sep 30, 2016)

I don't think anyone can answer really until they've had chance to use BB. What I do know is that as nice as the amount of control you get with BB is, it would slow down my workflow. It does sound nice in the demos though!


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## Lee Blaske (Sep 30, 2016)

Always hard to tell before you actually get to play it yourself. I had most of the Spitfire brass libraries already, to the upgrade for me was inexpensive and I went for it. I have to admit, though, that after playing with the new library, a lot of the problems I had with the original libraries were still there. For me, articulations across instrument ranges and between ranges feel inconsistent, and some of the intonation makes my teeth stand on edge (especially some of the longer trombone notes). I doubt I'll be using this library much at all. I still REALLY like all the VSL brass libraries. I can really make them do what I need to do. They are very nimble and consistent, and they are IN TUNE. 

Berlin Brass sounds really good, though. But again, hard (at least for me) to tell until I get it under my fingers. But if I was going to buy only one at this point, I think I'd have more hope for Berlin Brass.

Don't know why the Spitfire brass is such a disappointment to me. I absolutely LOVE their new chamber strings library, and use it often.


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## Zhao Shen (Sep 30, 2016)

Pretty sure Berlin Brass is _capable _of being superior in just about every way aside from the variety of instruments sampled. The question is whether you feel like it's worth it to spend all the extra money for the extra features.


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## muziksculp (Sep 30, 2016)

I could see this topic popping up soon.


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## Levitanus (Sep 30, 2016)

there not either vs. Berlin killed everybody. Only SM could be somewhere near them, and only in solo parts...


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## cadenzajon (Sep 30, 2016)

Spitfire's design of allowing me to keep a variety of articulations within a single patch appeals to me. I don't have any of the Berlin libraries so far, but is that same option possible there, or would I be signing up for a monster number of template tracks with BB (like I see in the video)?


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2016)

cadenzajon said:


> Spitfire's design of allowing me to keep a variety of articulations within a single patch appeals to me. I don't have any of the Berlin libraries so far, but is that same option possible there, or would I be signing up for a monster number of template tracks with BB (like I see in the video)?


Not sure but OT use Capsule which allows multiple articulations in most of their instruments.

Curious about the lack of divisi since they do have that option in their older Berlin Brass Exp C Horns library which also sounds terrific


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## dcoscina (Sep 30, 2016)

I also own a fair bit of Spitfire brass and really kept hemming and hawing over upgrading because of their terrific loyalty pricing. In the end, I did actually upgrade so I could add the trumpets from the BML line which I didn't have. It's nice having everything under one roof. 

OT Berlin Brass sounds very good and clear. After hearing three of the walkthroughs, it sounds amazing but I'm happy with the brass I have and really cannot afford the price tag thanks to the awful Canadian dollar...


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## Karl Feuerstake (Sep 30, 2016)

Berlin Brass sounds absolutely incredible! But then, so does Spitfire Brass. And for me the choice was a no-brainer; as an owner of previous Spitfire libs, my upgrade was ~$270 CAD. Berlin Brass looks like it'd be $890 pre-order, $1180 full price for me, so I'm not regretting my buy on Spitfire; especially as a student, I simply cannot afford to shovel out that kind of cash.

Which is better? They both are very versatile, both are capable of doing solo, small ensemble, and medium / large ensemble. One of the quick differences I see is Spitfire Brass includes the 6-player "phalanx" ensembles with a really "epic" sound, while Berlin Brass provides additional soloist spots for more realistic 3-4 voice chords. Another thing is that Berlin Brass provides a quick way to change accents on sustained notes (very cool) - while for Spitfire you have to play around with the Marcato patches paired with sustains.

In in a perfect world it'd be great to own both, as they're both peak quality libraries. And if you're not a Spitfire owner, the price point might be nearly the same; and I'd say look at which library seems to fit your style better. Berlin looks more focused on that "classical" sound, while Spitfire offers additional ensembles and instruments not otherwise available in Berlin Brass (for now. I suspect Cimbassi + Contrabass Trombones will be available in Berlin's additional instrument expansions, which I am looking forward to.)


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## shnootre (Sep 30, 2016)

Just downloaded Spitfire Symphonic Brass. I have Spitfire Chamber Strings, and Berlin Woodwinds. All I've done is just poke around a bit in this new library, but it sounds gorgeous, and feels very playable. I would love it if a later update brought the performance legato to the solo instruments (and stopped solo horn!), but overall I have a feeling this is going to be a great library for me. Also, because the patches aren't unbearably huge (not small either, mind you), they won't push my single computer 16gb of ram setup past the breaking point. Berlin Brass will be great I'm sure. But I've struggled incorporating their woodwinds, which I know everyone loves, into my set up. This feels far more playable. 

On that (side) note, I so wish that you could get trial versions of sample libraries for 2 weeks or something. It is so clear to me so quickly when a library is going to be meaningful to me. I recently bought SoundIron Olympus and within an hour I knew it just wasn't a good fit for me (too big sounding, too many syllables I don't need, too unwieldy in many ways). A try-out would have revealed that very quickly. 

Anyway - big thumbs up in the early going for Spitfire brass. Also - the dry sounds actually sound pretty dry to me - seems like this would be blendable in a lot of contexts. 

Throwing this out there in case anyone is still on the fence as the intro and edu discounts are about to evaporate.


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## zeng (Sep 30, 2016)

As you may all know, I love VSL's "online play/try libraries" option. I bought many of their libraries after trying them online (playing libraries before buying on your own setup with very low latency is wonderful). I wish all developers had this option  I bought spitfire chamber strings last week, and now (after reading your posts) just got spitfire brass. But I would really like to try Berlin brass' legato types online...


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## EvilDragon (Sep 30, 2016)

I bought Spitfire Brass. After the RT fix, I am extremely happy. Phalanxes sound huge, and those performance legato patches are INSANELY well done.


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## jononotbono (Sep 30, 2016)

Wish I could afford Berlin Brass. It sounds great. However, I have just bought SSB and absolutely loving it. I have to wait till I get some better paying work and then I'll buy the whole Berlin Orchestra. All of it sounds great. Incredible choice out there now!


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## mac (Sep 30, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> Wish I could afford Berlin Brass. It sounds great. However, I have just bought SSB and absolutely loving it. I have to wait till I get some better paying work and then I'll buy the whole Berlin Orchestra. All of it sounds great. Incredible choice out there now!



I love the tone of SSB. It's an absolute steal for Komplete owners, and I never understand why it doesn't get much love. 

Edit: just realised you're probably referring to spitfire, doh!


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## tack (Sep 30, 2016)

I'm more than a little annoyed with myself that I'm considering Berlin Brass. As it usually happens, I was resolved to pass on it, heard the walkthrough, and am beginning to feel my resolve buckle. It doesn't help my case that disposable income isn't an issue.

My annoyance comes from the fact that I have some very good libraries (namely BML and SM) and I know I'm not even _remotely _tapping their potential (given I am a talentless hack), but for the frustrations I _do_ have with those libraries, I'm not hearing the same faults in the BB intro.

On the other hand, that's what I always say. The honeymoon period with new sample libraries is shockingly short. It is almost always the case -- even with Orchestral Tools libraries -- that I'm terribly impressed by the demos and walkthroughs, pick up the library, and before long and muttering "oh dear" and must remind myself how difficult instrument sampling must be.

But on the other other hand, the pre-order discount is nontrivial.


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## shnootre (Sep 30, 2016)

The one note I've found in Spitfire Brass so far that is crazy out of tune is F2 in the solo bass trombone marcato. It's totally an F#. I know someone else was posting about intonation in the low brass. Seems like this is probably a simple update. Other than that, I haven't heard too many problems, and I really think the tone is beautiful.


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## tack (Sep 30, 2016)

shnootre said:


> Other than that, I haven't heard too many problems, and I really think the tone is beautiful.


It can be, certainly.

Probably my biggest criticism of BML brass is the playability of the solo horns with anything more than a timid application of the modwheel. This may well be an intrinsic problem with sampling horns in very reverberant spaces, but I didn't hear anything quite like this in the Berlin Brass intro walkthrough. (Granted, Teldex isn't quite like Air Lyndhurst in that respect.)



I probably ought to repeat this with the new SSB patches and see if things have improved.


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## Karl Feuerstake (Sep 30, 2016)

shnootre said:


> The one note I've found in Spitfire Brass so far that is crazy out of tune is F2 in the solo bass trombone marcato. It's totally an F#. I know someone else was posting about intonation in the low brass. Seems like this is probably a simple update. Other than that, I haven't heard too many problems, and I really think the tone is beautiful.



If you think Bass Trombone is out of tune in SSB.. don't play the Contrabass Tuba.

I sent Support a message regarding it and they said it'll get addressed.. but yea, be warned.

I suspect they recorded a non-compensating valve Contra Tuba, possibly even with only 4 - valves. You get some intonation problems with non-compensating valves in your lower range... that's just how the instruments are.


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## shnootre (Sep 30, 2016)

Karl Feuerstake said:


> If you think Bass Trombone is out of tune in SSB.. don't play the Contrabass Tuba.
> 
> I sent Support a message regarding it and they said it'll get addressed.. but yea, be warned.
> 
> I suspect they recorded a non-compensating valve Contra Tuba, possibly even with only 4 - valves. You get some intonation problems with non-compensating valves in your lower range... that's just how the instruments are.



Ha - I haven't quite gotten down there yet... but now I can't resist! 

(still, I'm not hearing many intonation problems in the horn/tpts, and even in the tbn patch where I heard it (bs. tbn) it was only one note on one artic. - though let's see what I find way down below)


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## shnootre (Sep 30, 2016)

Ok...wow - some crunchy intonation down there. Again, I'm hearing it mainly in specific artics (marcato, and SERIOUSLY in tenuto!! - that is some trippy business..) 

Meanwhile, it's SUCH a cool sound (I've never written for contrabass tuba). I hope the good folks at Spitfire get it sorted.


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## Craig Sharmat (Sep 30, 2016)

This may or may not help.
I have a fair amount of of Spitfire brass but did not upgrade as I knew OT was coming.
I really like the sound of SF brass and I also like the sound of Cinebrass For many things.
I was fine with them and a little of my custom stuff. OT brass is great and different sounding But I'm not going to say better. SF and CB are fine libs.
Where OT really shines is not only its versatility but ease of use. You can go as deep as you want or simple or numerous points in between. Don't be scared of the depth of the library, it does not need be a deep learning curve.


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## BachN4th (Sep 30, 2016)

Not really a huge contribution to this thread, but I find it amusing that the "contrabass" tuba is often viewed as a specialty instrument, and that sample libraries are more likely to include a bass tuba instead of a contrabass tuba despite contrabass tubas being the standard tuba you see used in bands and orchestras (well, at least in the US). The contrabass tuba is your typical CC or BBb tuba, the bass tuba is pitched a bit higher, in Eb or F and is more frequently found in a brass quintet than in an orchestra. A professional tuba player will have both a bass and contrabass tuba and will use whichever is best for the overall weight or pitch range of the piece or section. Tubas in all 4 keys read the same music (Except in British brass bands) and simply use different fingerings based on the fundamental pitch of that particular instrument.


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## galactic orange (Sep 30, 2016)

One other point to consider, for those who receive educational discounts: The Spitfire educational discount can be applied to the current Brass introductory price, although at not quite the full rate (understandable why they do this). The Orchestral Tools educational discount, however, cannot. From the website:

"Please note that the EDU discount can not be combined with any other discounts (pre-order, introductory pricing, ...).
Also EDU discounts can not be applied in retrospect for accounting reasons."

As much as I love the horn retongued legatos in BB (ALMOST sold me on that alone), this might sway me toward other options.


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## shnootre (Sep 30, 2016)

galactic orange said:


> One other point to consider, for those who receive educational discounts: The Spitfire educational discount can be applied to the current Brass introductory price, although at not quite the full rate (understandable why they do this). The Orchestral Tools educational discount, however, cannot. From the website:
> 
> "Please note that the EDU discount can not be combined with any other discounts (pre-order, introductory pricing, ...).
> Also EDU discounts can not be applied in retrospect for accounting reasons."
> ...



This isn't entirely accurate. Spitfire let edu users apply the September special of 40% off to the FULL price (not introductory) of Symphonic Brass. It still was a very significant difference in price from Berlin Brass (and why I pulled the trigger on the Spitfire).


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## galactic orange (Sep 30, 2016)

shnootre said:


> This isn't entirely accurate. Spitfire let edu users apply the September special of 40% off to the FULL price (not introductory) of Symphonic Brass. It still was a very significant difference in price from Berlin Brass (and why I pulled the trigger on the Spitfire).


You are correct on that. I calculated the price in the cart after entering the educational discount. Then I calculated it based on the full price after promotional period, and with the standard 30% discount, and it came out to be more after the promotional period. Whether or not that is due to percentage difference before and after the promotional period, I'm not sure. I'll check it out. Both libraries offer more possibilities that what I currently have so either way I'll be elated.

*EDIT: *I was comparing two different things, SSB vs OT BB educational price, and also the price of SSB before and after the current educational discount special. When I apply the SSB discount code, a percentage relating to the current discount pricing is shown but it comes out to the same price in the end.


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## Ryan99 (Oct 1, 2016)

tack said:


> I'm more than a little annoyed with myself that I'm considering Berlin Brass. As it usually happens, I was resolved to pass on it, heard the walkthrough, and am beginning to feel my resolve buckle. It doesn't help my case that disposable income isn't an issue.
> 
> My annoyance comes from the fact that I have some very good libraries (namely BML and SM) and I know I'm not even _remotely _tapping their potential (given I am a talentless hack), but for the frustrations I _do_ have with those libraries, I'm not hearing the same faults in the BB intro.
> 
> ...



If that helps your conscience to hear it from someone else: Don't buy it. You don't need it.


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## jamwerks (Oct 1, 2016)

They are different libraries or course. Myself, couldn't imagine not having both! If the idea of having multiple soloists turns out to be really popular, I imagine SF would maybe do some expansion packs.

I was very surprised to hear (especially in the horns) the effect that having multiple soloists has. Sasha pointed the difference quite well. I can really hear that 3D, something that SM or VSL via IR's (Mir or Spat) only hint at imo. Real is no much more "real"!


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## galactic orange (Oct 1, 2016)

tack said:


> It can be, certainly.
> 
> Probably my biggest criticism of BML brass is the playability of the solo horns with anything more than a timid application of the modwheel. This may well be an intrinsic problem with sampling horns in very reverberant spaces, but I didn't hear anything quite like this in the Berlin Brass intro walkthrough. (Granted, Teldex isn't quite like Air Lyndhurst in that respect.)
> 
> ...



Have they improved?


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## chrysshawk (Oct 1, 2016)

shnootre said:


> The one note I've found in Spitfire Brass so far that is crazy out of tune is F2 in the solo bass trombone marcato. It's totally an F#. I know someone else was posting about intonation in the low brass.


What? You own a BML instrument and don't already have AutoTune as an integral part of the workflow?! The joke aside, it makes life a lot easier, especially for notes which are drifting. SF woods come to mind.


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## Jack Weaver (Oct 1, 2016)

_Thought I'd share what I wrote on another board:_

It wasn't a walk-through video, per se. It seems like the purpose of it was to show the 'concept' of the library. We should expect a more traditional video before the pre-sale period ends. My guess - they're still in deep beta editing and not quite ready to show the final articulations as they would want them to be heard.

Probably all the new and impending brass libraries pushed their hand a bit before they were most comfortable releasing it. I completely understand this. They probably spent over a year on this and it's important to the success of their company. The success of OT is important to all of its sample using customer base.

Not totally sold on the legato so far - both on the recording and editing sides. (The recorded differences between the slurred and re-tongued articulations didn't seem to be exaggerated enough. The slurred legato seemed too disconnected.) However.... the library's overall tone is much clearer and brighter than Spitfire. (Teldex is a clearer room than Air. The sound is more detailed, less amalgamated. Individual instruments seem to maintain their own, iconoclastic sounds more.) So I hear and feel the dynamics more. That's something very important in brass libs. It's not as powerful as CineBrass but much more detailed. The shorts and sustained articulations are wonderful - well worth the library price.

Once again the importance of the quality of the players is paramount to the success of the final product. The players are quite good. So the library is quite good. It's interesting that CineBrass showcases the American ethnic, Spitfire the English and Orchestral Tools the German. These are different music education systems producing players (and orchestras) to meet different audience expectations. Vive la difference.

.

PS - _loved the ORTF mics. _
Overall, my personal preference for tonalities is:
Air for strings, (the strings blend better there)
Teldex for brass and (the brass stand out better there)
Sony for percussion. (percussion has a much more etched sound there - although the OT cymbals are my clear - and I do mean clear - favorite.)


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## shnootre (Oct 1, 2016)

chrysshawk said:


> What? You own a BML instrument and don't already have AutoTune as an integral part of the workflow?! The joke aside, it makes life a lot easier, especially for notes which are drifting. SF woods come to mind.



Interesting idea. In this case, though, Autotune would just completely dial that F2 in as an F#.


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## rottoy (Oct 1, 2016)

Jack Weaver said:


> _Thought I'd share what I wrote on another board:_
> 
> It wasn't a walk-through video, per se. It seems like the purpose of it was to show the 'concept' of the library. We should expect a more traditional video before the pre-sale period ends. My guess - they're still in deep beta editing and not quite ready to show the final articulations as they would want them to be heard.
> 
> ...


+1 for the ORTF mics. They sounded drop dead gorgeous, perfectly balanced sound. If they would ever release a slimmed down "Lite" version of Berlin Brass with just the ORTF mics, I could die happy.


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## zeng (Oct 2, 2016)

Well, when you play a legato note, it goes forever. Why don't they make it based on real player's breath duration?


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## Silence-is-Golden (Oct 2, 2016)

chrysshawk said:


> What? You own a BML instrument and don't already have AutoTune as an integral part of the workflow?! The joke aside, it makes life a lot easier, especially for notes which are drifting. SF woods come to mind.


That actually works?


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## Reactor.UK (Oct 2, 2016)

zeng said:


> Well, when you play a legato note, it goes forever. Why don't they make it based on real player's breath duration?


Difficult to quantify the breath duration of a real player, especially if you include a player than do circular breathing. Additionally, if you are not speaking specifically about about a solo player, a section may alternate their breathing for long sustained notes.


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## chrysshawk (Oct 2, 2016)

shnootre said:


> Interesting idea. In this case, though, Autotune would just completely dial that F2 in as an F#.


Not if you pitch it down. And yeah, it works. Since most here use Cubase, VariAudio should be equally practical. It's a fairly quick fix and sometimes one needs to get one's hands dirty.


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## JFetter (Oct 2, 2016)

chrysshawk said:


> What? You own a BML instrument and don't already have AutoTune as an integral part of the workflow?! The joke aside, it makes life a lot easier, especially for notes which are drifting. SF woods come to mind.



Thank goodness I'm not the only one. The woods and especially some of the low strings (bass) in Sable I find really out of tune. I'm not sure if the autotune would help because in the bass, many times the notes begin flat and the players adjust _up _to the correct pitch.

I'm new and wondering if other libraries are better and more consistent with tuning? (BST?)


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## chrysshawk (Oct 2, 2016)

JFetter said:


> Thank goodness I'm not the only one. The woods and especially some of the low strings (bass) in Sable I find really out of tune. I'm not sure if the autotune would help because in the bass, many times the notes begin flat and the players adjust _up _to the correct pitch.
> 
> I'm new and wondering if other libraries are better and more consistent with tuning? (BST?)


Don't think that is a problem at all. Try working with a vocalist  The problem with musicians is that we all believe we know what something Should sound like, yet at the same time we almost never agree on that Should. I suspect that is why many think SF woods sound great and I need to add AutoTune on the track to make it bearable. But hey, since we never agree, we have 1.000.000 threads on VI-C with musicians, surprisingly, mostly disagreeing


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 2, 2016)

Jack Weaver said:


> Overall, my personal preference for tonalities is:
> Air for strings, (the strings blend better there)
> Teldex for brass and (the brass stand out better there)
> Sony for percussion. (percussion has a much more etched sound there - although the OT cymbals are my clear - and I do mean clear - favorite.)



 Poor woodwinds, always overlooked...


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## jononotbono (Oct 2, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Poor woodwinds, always overlooked...



Nah. I'm about to invest in Winds. There's so much choice!


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## rottoy (Oct 2, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Poor woodwinds, always overlooked...


Here's the new orchestral layout.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 2, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Here's the new orchestral layout.


Finally someone got it right.


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## Lassi Tani (Oct 2, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Here's the new orchestral layout.



There's not any braam there. Isn't that instrument part of the new modern orchestra?


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## rottoy (Oct 2, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> There's not any braam there. Isn't that instrument part of the new modern orchestra?


I'm gonna have to refer to Hans on that one. http://vi-control.net/community/members/rctec.4244/

When in doubt, orchestrate every horn part "fff".


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## Levitanus (Oct 2, 2016)

chrysshawk said:


> Don't think that is a problem at all. Try working with a vocalist  The problem with musicians is that we all believe we know what something Should sound like, yet at the same time we almost never agree on that Should. I suspect that is why many think SF woods sound great and I need to add AutoTune on the track to make it bearable. But hey, since we never agree, we have 1.000.000 threads on VI-C with musicians, surprisingly, mostly disagreeing


Yep! Persannaly i really don't like tuning, when it performed well. Not because of timbre corruption, but it can also have a place, but because of live in this intonations. And often i receive negative feedback about untuned vocal or violin 
No, i'm not a tune rejector, i use muuch tune on bad vocalists 

P.S. We have joke:
Conductor: Tuba, get F here
Tuba: Frrrr
Conductor: Now Fis
Tuba: Frrrr
Conductor: Play as you wish

P.P.S. I love SF Trombones a2. For my taste shorts are the best


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## rottoy (Oct 2, 2016)

Levitanus said:


> Yep! Persannaly i really don't like tuning, when it performed well. Not because of timbre corruption, but it can also have a place, but because of live in this intonations. And often i receive negative feedback about untuned vocal or violin
> No, i'm not a tune rejector, i use muuch tune on bad vocalists
> 
> P.S. We have joke:
> ...


There's an easy way to keep the tuba in tune; Make the conductor lean into the bell with his head and remain there for the entire performance.


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## Karma (Oct 2, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Here's the new orchestral layout.


Hahahah! It actually fascinates me how much Woodwinds get neglected around here. By far my favourite thing about the Orchestra...


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## rottoy (Oct 2, 2016)

Karmarghh said:


> Hahahah! It actually fascinates me how much Woodwinds get neglected around here. By far my favourite thing about the Orchestra...


Winds come straight after strings for me. I'm still looking for an oboe with the timbre I want.


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## Lawson. (Oct 2, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Winds come straight after strings for me. I'm still looking for an oboe with the timbre I want.



Have you tried the oboe in Berlin Woodwinds Exp. B? It sounds absolutely gorgeous.

[Note: I have received free products from OT.]


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## rottoy (Oct 2, 2016)

Lawson. said:


> Have you tried the oboe in Berlin Woodwinds Exp. B? It sounds absolutely gorgeous.
> 
> [Note: I have received free products from OT.]


I've been looking at that on and off for years now. I love the timbre, but have hesitated on taking the plunge just to get the oboe.
(I don't fancy the sound of the clarinet or the horn from the same expansion, even though the flute is okay.)

In fact, it was listening to your "Overlooking Dale" that I got reminded of the beautiful timbre of that particular oboe once again recently.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 2, 2016)

I freaking love woodwinds. Beautiful. Could never overlook them. I'm looking for my ideal ww library (libraries is probably more accurate) right now.
And that's from a former brass player.

But we all need a little braaaam every now and then. Amirite?


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## chrysshawk (Oct 3, 2016)

The problem is, the more you love a sound/instrument, the harder you will be to please using virtual instruments!
Usually I pretend my sampled orchestra has the best players, best mics and consoles, rexorded in the best halls with deep sampling etc etc.
But the thing (OT, SF, CS) seem to not have told us, their musicians are obviously drunk!  That's how a mockup sounds at least.


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## Maestro1972 (Oct 3, 2016)

Karmarghh said:


> Hahahah! It actually fascinates me how much Woodwinds get neglected around here. By far my favourite thing about the Orchestra...



I don't think they get neglected around here at all. Especially since the release of Berlin Woodwinds. I noticed in the thread asking favorite/least favorite library Berlin WW is echoed repeatedly as members' favorite library. What I think is that the forum is ready for brass libraries to catch up to the likes of Berlin Woodwinds, CSS, and the other great string and wind libraries. 

just for the record...woodwinds are pretty amazing!


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## jononotbono (Oct 3, 2016)

Maestro1972 said:


> I don't think they get neglected around here at all. Especially since the release of Berlin Woodwinds. I noticed in the thread asking favorite/least favorite library Berlin WW is echoed repeatedly as members' favorite library. What I think is that the forum is ready for brass libraries to catch up to the likes of Berlin Woodwinds, CSS, and the other great string and wind libraries.
> 
> just for the record...woodwinds are pretty amazing!



I agree. I can't remember the last time Mike Verta hasn't been ranting about so many people sticking woodwind run after woodwind run at the end of every bar of their music haha!


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## Karma (Oct 3, 2016)

jononotbono said:


> I agree. I can't remember the last time Mike Verta hasn't been ranting about so many people sticking woodwind run after woodwind run at the end of every bar of their music haha!


Don't get me wrong, I too have seen Mike talking about this a lot, however if I remember correctly - the use of winds in those pieces was literally just for the runs. Which is still somewhat neglecting 99% of what winds can do!



Maestro1972 said:


> I don't think they get neglected around here at all. Especially since the release of Berlin Woodwinds. I noticed in the thread asking favorite/least favorite library Berlin WW is echoed repeatedly as members' favorite library. What I think is that the forum is ready for brass libraries to catch up to the likes of Berlin Woodwinds, CSS, and the other great string and wind libraries.
> 
> just for the record...woodwinds are pretty amazing!


Maybe you are right. My favourite library is definitely BWW, the Oboe & Flute in EXP B are gorgeous and one of the first things I reach for. I can't say too much as I've literally just invested in Symphonic Brass. I can however definitely say I do see much more Brass around here than anything else, not that it's a bad thing. I guess just have a special place in my heart for the Woodwinds and would love to hear more.


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## Maestro1972 (Oct 3, 2016)

Karmarghh said:


> special place in my heart for the Woodwinds and would love to hear more.


+1 on the HEARING more. I really enjoy the music of those who really know how to make woodwinds shine. We have the tools, the Orchestral Tools that is! (see what i did there!) so I hope more members will post some woodwind focused pieces.


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## dcoscina (Oct 3, 2016)

So I actually ended up going for Spitfire Symphonic Brass. It's handy to have all the BML libraries under one roof. Some nice stuff in there. BB will have to wait until I win a small lottery, the Canadian dollar doesn't suck so much or Steven Spielberg dumps that old bag John Williams for me.


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## JeremyWiebe (Oct 3, 2016)

I noticed in the Spitfire horns walkthrough video that they included re-tongued legato in addition to slurred, but I didn't notice it mentioned in any of the other videos. Does anyone know if they included it in the Trumpet and Tuba patches like Berlin Brass has?


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## zeng (Oct 5, 2016)

Why Spitfire does not include Portato to its strings libraries? Orchestral Tools has this articulation in their strings and 1st chair strings...(this is not related with brass but spitfire vs berlin).


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## 5Lives (Oct 15, 2016)

Any more opinions on this given that the walkthroughs for Berlin are out? They're about the same price at the moment (since Berlin is on the pre-order price right now). I imagine Spitfire will be cheaper eventually with their deals (say Black Friday).


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## ctsai89 (Oct 15, 2016)

Yes the tongued legato would be nice. But that's not a problem for me tbh. The main problem with symphonic spitfire brass is that the dynamics for trumpet solo longs below Eb5 starting from D5 downwards aren't loud enough compared to the higher notes. And the legato patch doens't have anything louder than mf recorded (to my ears at least). So, i've replaced it without bravura scoring brass solo trumpet (still not loud enough but much better) in which i got it A la carte. haha i really need the trumpets to be able to play fortississimo like in Wagner/Scriabin's pieces.


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## markleake (Oct 15, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Any more opinions on this given that the walkthroughs for Berlin are out? They're about the same price at the moment (since Berlin is on the pre-order price right now). I imagine Spitfire will be cheaper eventually with their deals (say Black Friday).


My opinion is... its hard to tell.

BB does sound great in the demos and walkthroughs. But I suspect like all libraries there will be some downsides. Both BB and SSB sound very nice to me in the demos. I have SSB, and while I haven't played around with it much yet, so far I have found it very good.

One thing I'm not so sure about is the horns with BB. They sound muddy in the demos when blended in with the orchestra, compared to some alternatives.


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## ctsai89 (Oct 15, 2016)

markleake said:


> My opinion is... its hard to tell.
> 
> BB does sound great in the demos and walkthroughs. But I suspect like all libraries there will be some downsides. Both BB and SSB sound very nice to me in the demos. I have SSB, and while I haven't played around with it much yet, so far I have found it very good.
> 
> One thing I'm not so sure about is the horns with BB. They sound muddy in the demos when blended in with the orchestra, compared to some alternatives.




My guesss with berlin brass, one of the major downsides is that it wouldn't mix with BS and Berlin woodwinds as well as spitfire could without having to do a lot of panning/mixing


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## Lassi Tani (Oct 16, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> My guesss with berlin brass, one of the major downsides is that it wouldn't mix with BS and Berlin woodwinds as well as spitfire could without having to do a lot of panning/mixing



Panning shouldn't be needed, unless you're using close mics, right? Lot of mixing.. well we don't know much about the sound of the library yet together with BST and BWW, and I think it's early to say that Berlin Brass would require a lot of mixing to go well together with BS and BWW, and I doubt that it would need a lot of panning/mixing.


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## ctsai89 (Oct 16, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> Panning shouldn't be needed, unless you're using close mics, right? Lot of mixing.. well we don't know much about the sound of the library yet together with BST and BWW, and I think it's early to say that Berlin Brass would require a lot of mixing to go well together with BS and BWW, and I doubt that it would need a lot of panning/mixing.



someone did a mockup of mahler symphony no5 using berlin strings/woodwinds and project sam orchestral brass. The woodwinds sticked out too loud and the strings were too wide. That's what I remember. It's not out of box full orchestra ready like spitfire BML


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## Sebastianmu (Oct 16, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> someone did a mockup of mahler symphony no5 using berlin strings/woodwinds and project sam orchestral brass. The woodwinds sticked out too loud and the strings were too wide. That's what I remember. It's not out of box full orchestra ready like spitfire BML


I find that rather dubious. Of course BST and BWW work exceptionally well together out of the box. Maybe the guy doing the mock-up of Mahler 5 did a little _too much _in terms of "mixing"? I expect BB to blend perfectly with the rest of the Berlin Series.


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## Vischebaste (Oct 16, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> My guesss with berlin brass, one of the major downsides is that it wouldn't mix with BS and Berlin woodwinds as well as spitfire could without having to do a lot of panning/mixing



I don't understand. Why would that be the case when the Berlin sounds are all recorded in the same hall, and SF sounds are recorded in a different hall?


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## Saxer (Oct 16, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> My guesss with berlin brass, one of the major downsides is that it wouldn't mix with BS and Berlin woodwinds as well as spitfire could without having to do a lot of panning/mixing


It's probably possible to make a "wrong" mix with the OT libraries. But honestly: you don't have to.


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## Lassi Tani (Oct 16, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> someone did a mockup of mahler symphony no5 using berlin strings/woodwinds and project sam orchestral brass. The woodwinds sticked out too loud and the strings were too wide. That's what I remember. It's not out of box full orchestra ready like spitfire BML



That doesn't say much about blending Berlin Brass with BWW and BST. With all respect, do you have Berlin Strings and Berlin Woodwinds, if you don't, how can you say Berlin Series is not out of box full orchestra ready? I have them BST and BWW, and I have found no issues with blending them together.


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## 5Lives (Oct 16, 2016)

Is blending so difficult these days, even from different developers? I feel more people care about the articulations and workflow and sound - which is what I'm interested in hearing about between these two. Only a few more days for the Berlin pre-sale.

Would love to hear from some more SSB owners.


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## Batrawi (Oct 16, 2016)

rottoy said:


> Here's the new orchestral layout.


Is there a version with panning values? Would be very useful


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## rottoy (Oct 16, 2016)

Batrawi said:


> Is there a version with panning values? Would be very useful


Just ask the percussionists about the value of their pots & pans.


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## ctsai89 (Oct 16, 2016)

sekkosiki said:


> That doesn't say much about blending Berlin Brass with BWW and BST. With all respect, do you have Berlin Strings and Berlin Woodwinds, if you don't, how can you say Berlin Series is not out of box full orchestra ready? I have them BST and BWW, and I have found no issues with blending them together.





well he has woodwinds at 1 decibel less than the berlin strings. You might think that sounds good which i do think sounds good and almost realistic too. But the woodwinds just had too much presence for my taste, almost as if they were put in front of the strings on the stage. it's probably because of the medium sized string section of berlin strings.

hmm but after checking out the mixing session, he may have boosted woodwinds when they have important parts.


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## Carbs (Oct 16, 2016)

Lee Blaske said:


> Always hard to tell before you actually get to play it yourself. I had most of the Spitfire brass libraries already, to the upgrade for me was inexpensive and I went for it. I have to admit, though, that after playing with the new library, a lot of the problems I had with the original libraries were still there. For me, articulations across instrument ranges and between ranges feel inconsistent, and some of the intonation makes my teeth stand on edge (especially some of the longer trombone notes). I doubt I'll be using this library much at all. I still REALLY like all the VSL brass libraries. I can really make them do what I need to do. They are very nimble and consistent, and they are IN TUNE.
> 
> Berlin Brass sounds really good, though. But again, hard (at least for me) to tell until I get it under my fingers. But if I was going to buy only one at this point, I think I'd have more hope for Berlin Brass.
> 
> *Don't know why the Spitfire brass is such a disappointment to me. I absolutely LOVE their new chamber strings library, and use it often.*



I've owned BML brass for a year and upgraded to SSB since it cost me nothing. Spitfire REALLY need to go through and iron out the problems with this library. It feels like it was rushed so they could get ahead of the competition. I have to continue to use BML patches because they somehow made SSB worse instead of better. They have offered an update to fix a couple release sample issues, but there are other bigger problems that need addressed. (SSB owners, load up bass trombone a2 legato and play the lowest 9 notes while riding the mod wheel...::shudder:.

I think Berlin Brass sounds great so far. I think the trumpets sound absolutely amazing! I do agree about the horns...they don't seem to be on the level of the trumpets. However, the spitfire a2 and solo horns, IMO, REQUIRE utilization of the outrigger mics, as the tree mics have a terrible ringing that kills the ears - can't really EQ it out without making things sound weirder. 

It's my HOPE that Berlin brass isn't as buggy as SSB, but there's no way to know until I play it myself. It was once my dream to be all in on spitfire (and I do own almost all their stuff) but as the years have gone buy I wish I would have invested in OT instead, I love BWW.


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## Lassi Tani (Oct 16, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> well he has woodwinds at 1 decibel less than the berlin strings. You might think that sounds good which i do think sounds good and almost realistic too. But the woodwinds just had too much presence for my taste, almost as if they were put in front of the strings on the stage. it's probably because of the medium sized string section of berlin strings.
> 
> hmm but after checking out the mixing session, he may have boosted woodwinds when they have important parts.




Yeah he has volume automation on woodwinds, and they seem to be have higher volume on louder parts. Also I think he didn't show, which mics he is using, and I think I saw panning in the string channels. But the volume automation is probably the reason, why you're hearing too much presence in the woodwinds, and not really a blending issue or medium sized section of berlin strings.


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## 5Lives (Oct 16, 2016)

Carbs said:


> I've owned BML brass for a year and upgraded to SSB since it cost me nothing. Spitfire REALLY need to go through and iron out the problems with this library. It feels like it was rushed so they could get ahead of the competition. I have to continue to use BML patches because they somehow made SSB worse instead of better. They have offered an update to fix a couple release sample issues, but there are other bigger problems that need addressed. (SSB owners, load up bass trombone a2 legato and play the lowest 9 notes while riding the mod wheel...::shudder:.
> 
> I think Berlin Brass sounds great so far. I think the trumpets sound absolutely amazing! I do agree about the horns...they don't seem to be on the level of the trumpets. However, the spitfire a2 and solo horns, IMO, REQUIRE utilization of the outrigger mics, as the tree mics have a terrible ringing that kills the ears - can't really EQ it out without making things sound weirder.
> 
> It's my HOPE that Berlin brass isn't as buggy as SSB, but there's no way to know until I play it myself. It was once my dream to be all in on spitfire (and I do own almost all their stuff) but as the years have gone buy I wish I would have invested in OT instead, I love BWW.



Thanks for the feedback! Listening to all of the demos across Berlin, SSB, Cinebrass, and HWB, Berlin definitely sounds amazing to me personally.


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## dcoscina (Oct 17, 2016)

I only own OT Ark, Sphere and Horns Exp C and love their clarity. I own a TON of Spitfire products including Albion I-III, BML libraries (most of the brass), Percussion, Harp, and the list goes on. I recently bought their Symphonic Brass because it was very cheap to upgrade and I liked the idea of having everything under one hood. 

I recently used Spitfire almost exclusively for a march I wrote and to my ears it sounds very good. I did sneak in OT Ark bones (short) for 1 figure for clarity but aside from that, it's mostly Spitfire brass. I'm very impressed with the organic sound of the SF brass. I also like that it's not too perfect because a real orchestra isn't either. 

I'm glad I went this route mostly because OT Brass, while sounding terrific, is in the stratosphere economically for me and I really think that if one takes the time and care to use Spitfire brass, they sound bloody amazing- just listen to any one of Andy Blaney's demos and the proof is right there.


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## Carbs (Oct 17, 2016)

Don't get me wrong, SF libraries sound amazing - otherwise I wouldn't have spent thousands of dollars on them! All in all, their sonic potential is the biggest reason why I would like to see the bugs fixed. I don't mean the little imperfections, of course that's part of the appeal...I only want fixes for that which is truly broken. 

And just BTW...something tells me Andys samples aren't locked, lol.


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## 5Lives (Oct 17, 2016)

@dcoscina @Carbs If money wasn't the factor, but you could only pick one, which would you pick? Berlin or Spitfire?


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## dcoscina (Oct 17, 2016)

5Lives said:


> @dcoscina @Carbs If money wasn't the factor, but you could only pick one, which would you pick? Berlin or Spitfire?


Impossible to answer as I don't have BB to compare to Spitfire. All I can say is that time and time again when I have to produce a track that sounds real and organic, I end up going Spitfire.


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## 5Lives (Oct 17, 2016)

Definitely somewhat premature of a comparison in the sense that nobody has Berlin, but the presale discount is non-trivial and makes the products relatively similar price wise. Plus demos and walkthroughs are out and I imagine a few folks have been able to dive into the depths of Spitfire's offering now (and sounds like there are a number of bugs / sound issues).


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## JeremyWiebe (Oct 17, 2016)

A few things I've noticed in the BB demos and a comparison to HWB, which I have:

All solo Horn sustains are sampled at four dynamic levels (Horn 1 & 4: pp, mp, f, ff; Horn 2 & 3: pp, p, mf, ff). It maybe would have been nice if they had included one or two more, but overall I find the crossfade between the sus layers to be quite smooth and would work nicely for warm passages where you don't necessarily won't much edge. Also they do offer a bit of difference in the dynamic layers between 1 & 4 and 2 & 3. I expect one might find that some of the solo horns may work nicer for softer passages and others for louder passages. 

The Ens Horns sus however only has three dynamic layers, which is a bit disappointing since four is pretty standard (HWB has four sus dynamic layers in the ens horns and almost all the other instruments). And I find the dynamic crossfade is not as smooth as with the solo horns (particularly at 5:40 in the horn video), but it's not bad either. Plus you do have the option of using the four solo horns together in unison, which may be a better option for more lyrical and expressive passages where you're riding the mod wheel a lot.

The Ens Horns Stacatissimos look to be sampled at four dynamic layers (pp, mp, f, ff), and here again I find myself wishing there was one or two more layers. At about 6:40 in the video you can notice quite a shift in the dynamic, which makes me wish there was one more layer between the mp and f samples. Again, not a huge issue, but it's one of the shortcomings I experience in HWB. What I really appreciate, though, is that they sampled four lengths of shorts (stac, stacatissimo, marco short, marcato long) across the range of instruments. By comparison, HWB generally only has three (one length of stac and two length of marcato), with the exception of the Solo Trumpet which has all four.

The solo trumpets sus are sampled at only three dynamic layers (p, mf, ff), but I find the crossfades are really smooth. Overall I think the trumpets shine in this library, and having vibrato for all the trumpets is a nice addition for me since HWB only has limited trumpet vibrato.

The repetitions, swells, crescendos and fortepiano are all great additions for me, since some of this content doesn't exist in HWB. Given the price of the library, I was hoping for a little more content here, especially more lengths and dynamics of swells like they had in Berlin Strings. Also, other effects (rips, falls, flutter tongue) would have been nice, but I imagine they'll add that in an expansion library similar to the Horns Effects library. Also, I didn't notice any time stretch patches for the swells and crescendos, which would be nice to have. But they did offer this in an update for Metropolis Ark, so I imagine they would offer it here too.

Overall, there's a lot of useful content here, especially if you're someone like me coming from HWB. BB covers a lot of ground that HWB doesn't: 

the adaptive legato (with fast runs legato, and retongued legato fast and slow in addition to the standard slur)
legato glissando for trombones
four lengths of shorts across all instruments solo and ensemble (HWB only has three)
the bells up horn samples
vibrato sustains for trumpets, trombones and tuba (HWB only has vibrato for solo trumpet)
control over start of sustain (soft, immediate, accented)
the repetitions in 16ths and triplets, long and short (HWB only has long 16th repetitions sample)
swells and fortepiano
the bonus molto expressivo trumpet 1 & 2 samples
Aside from additional effects and mutes, the only thing HWB has that BB doesn't are the portato articulations, which were sampled at two dynamics and across all sections. That, and of course, the additional instruments (Cimbasso) and section sizes (including the Low Brass section) that HWB has. But of course, BB more than makes up for it with the variety of solo players and ability to create your own section sizes and write true divisi parts. 

One thing I'm not sure about is how BB handles sustain note repetitions. HWB does have the Sus Rep RRx4 and the Leg Rep patches, and it doesn't look like they did something similar here.


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## TintoL (Oct 17, 2016)

This thread has a lot of good information. I hope that people who eventually gets BB and also has SSB can share their opinions and experience with both. 

I am currently looking for woodwinds and brass replacement. I own the spitfire phalanxes and I am a happy owner. There is rare release out of tune here an there. So I find them really solid.
But, I don't know how the previous BML brass compares to the phalanx. I've search a lot in VI control and the opinion is that there are samples, specially release samples that go seriously out of tune. 
It wasn't until I recently tried and bought Albion I (first generation) that I noticed how the woodwinds and brass, specially low woodwinds releases get really out of tune. This is something that my VSL woodwinds didn't have. I find this out of tune releases very unpleasant. 

I wanted to ask here if this problems are still present in SSB?

If someone has SSB and BML woodwinds, I would highly appreciate if you could share this out of tune thing that has been mentioned specially in the BML woodwinds.


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## tmm (Oct 17, 2016)

If it's anything like the comparison between Berlin Strings and [__other string library X____], for me, Berlin is a clear winner. To my ears, OT's strings are head and shoulders above anything else out there (tonally speaking), aside from the real thing. Speaking as an owner of a good majority of the major string libraries on the market.


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## Carbs (Oct 17, 2016)

5Lives said:


> @dcoscina @Carbs If money wasn't the factor, but you could only pick one, which would you pick? Berlin or Spitfire?



I agree with others that it's impossible to say until BB is released. If I was in your situation I'd probably wait for Cinematic Scoring Brass (or whatever it's going to be called). It's rough since that means missing intro price offers currently on the table, but what if it's mindblowingly good? I'm still trying to decide if I'm jumping on BB train as well!


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## NoamL (Oct 17, 2016)

Great thread. But with due respect to about half of the opinions here  , I do not understand how SSB can be considered a peer competitor to Berlin... the main issue is that SSB has the same 1/2/all setup as HWB and CB (and from what we know so far, also 8dio's upcoming Century Brass) while Berlin is the only library on the market that individually sampled the entire brass section. Additionally, I don't see this point being stressed enough: SSB isn't even a traditional orchestral setup, it's *1/2/6* across all sections (yes, 6 trumpets) because SSB is a refurbishment/completion of the BML Brass. If you listen closely to the demos for SSB (which are outstanding!) you _can_ start to hear that there is a lot of unitary writing.

As to the bug issue / Berlin as an unknown quantity... let me be undiplomatic... I'm pretty sure that Berlin Brass is going to have a nice collection of bugs and note issues on launch. Just like SSB does according to @Carbs. All of these developers are trying to beat each other to the market. So we'll be "beta testing" for a while... What matters to me is that when the dust clears, Berlin is the only library with four horns.


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## Carbs (Oct 17, 2016)

Well, Dimension Brass did it first (VSL recorded the library in such a way as to give the end user control of individual players) albeit using different methods.


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## 5Lives (Oct 17, 2016)

I was contemplating waiting for Cinematic Studio Brass, but no idea when that will come out - and I am skeptical it will be as detailed and robust as Berlin (or Spitfire for that matters). The intended audience for that series seems different (more like the Native Instruments orchestral series).


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## Carbs (Oct 17, 2016)

Yes, it's definitely a risk. You're probably right that it won't be as comprehensive, but I think it'll be a higher quality than the NI stuff (but I don't think very highly of those libraries so I'm biased from the get go, lol). 

Good luck with your decision, has to be difficult!


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## coprhead6 (Oct 17, 2016)

Do we think the new Berlin Brass will mix well with the Spitfire strings libraries?


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## The Darris (Oct 17, 2016)

coprhead6 said:


> Do we think the new Berlin Brass will mix well with the Spitfire strings libraries?


Yes.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 17, 2016)

Carbs said:


> Yes, it's definitely a risk. You're probably right that it won't be as comprehensive, but I think it'll be a higher quality than the NI stuff (but I don't think very highly of those libraries so I'm biased from the get go, lol).
> 
> Good luck with your decision, has to be difficult!


I agree. Expecting the quality to be high in Cinematic Studio Brass. Not necessarily better than BB or SSB but very good. Also agree with 5Lives that I'm expecting CSB to be more ensemble (stressing that I don't actually know but am expecting the brass equivalent of CSS). 

The soloist/divisi options with BB are very, very attractive. The OT reputation was enough for me to hold off on the SSB intro offer (which was very hard as I'm a fan of everything Spitfire that I have) and just see what they came up with. It looks very, very good so far.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 17, 2016)

coprhead6 said:


> Do we think the new Berlin Brass will mix well with the Spitfire strings libraries?





The Darris said:


> Yes.



I do hope so. Won't be getting Berlin Strings for a long while yet. Need some woodwinds before that.


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## ctsai89 (Oct 18, 2016)

JeremyWiebe said:


> A few things I've noticed in the BB demos and a comparison to HWB, which I have:
> 
> All solo Horn sustains are sampled at four dynamic levels (Horn 1 & 4: pp, mp, f, ff; Horn 2 & 3: pp, p, mf, ff). It maybe would have been nice if they had included one or two more, but overall I find the crossfade between the sus layers to be quite smooth and would work nicely for warm passages where you don't necessarily won't much edge. Also they do offer a bit of difference in the dynamic layers between 1 & 4 and 2 & 3. I expect one might find that some of the solo horns may work nicer for softer passages and others for louder passages.
> 
> ...




I disagree with the part where trumpets shine in Spitfire symphonic brass. For the legato on solo trumpet: too soft even at the highest dynamic level. Sounds like mezzoforte. For the Longs on solo trumpet (which I think have SO MUCH potential): try playing D5 and Eb5 back and forth, they will not sound like it's the same trumpet player playing it due to the lack of brightness and attack on D5. so around B4 to D5, it's lacking the loud fortissimo feel and the attack. I had the solo trumpets replaced by bravura scoring brass's solo trumpet.


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## camelot (Oct 18, 2016)

ctsai89 said:


> I disagree with the part where trumpets shine in Spitfire symphonic brass. For the legato on solo trumpet: too soft even at the highest dynamic level. Sounds like mezzoforte. For the Longs on solo trumpet (which I think have SO MUCH potential): try playing D5 and Eb5 back and forth, they will not sound like it's the same trumpet player playing it due to the lack of brightness and attack on D5. so around B4 to D5, it's lacking the loud fortissimo feel and the attack. I had the solo trumpets replaced by bravura scoring brass's solo trumpet.


Well, and I thougth he was talking about the Berlin Brass trumpets.


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## Zhao Shen (Oct 18, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> I agree. Expecting the quality to be high in Cinematic Studio Brass. Not necessarily better than BB or SSB but very good. Also agree with 5Lives that I'm expecting CSB to be more ensemble (stressing that I don't actually know but am expecting the brass equivalent of CSS).



Will be interesting to see how they handle CSB. String libraries are pretty standard, with pretty much every modern library being a form of V1/V2/Va/VC/CB. CSB is where Alex gets to show what sort of collection the Cinematic Studio Series will be - whether it'll be a set of products that does standard things exceptionally well or whether it dares to be go further in-depth. There's so much freedom in brass libraries to dive deeper than Tpt/Hn/Tbn/Tba with instrumentation. Not to mention that solo brass samples are pretty standard in modern brass libraries.


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## ctsai89 (Oct 18, 2016)

camelot said:


> Well, and I thougth he was talking about the Berlin Brass trumpets.



ok oops lol


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 18, 2016)

Zhao Shen said:


> Will be interesting to see how they handle CSB. String libraries are pretty standard, with pretty much every modern library being a form of V1/V2/Va/VC/CB. CSB is where Alex gets to show what sort of collection the Cinematic Studio Series will be - whether it'll be a set of products that does standard things exceptionally well or whether it dares to be go further in-depth. There's so much freedom in brass libraries to dive deeper than Tpt/Hn/Tbn/Tba with instrumentation. Not to mention that solo brass samples are pretty standard in modern brass libraries.


Some solo brass in the mix would be very interesting.
I'm very much excitedly anticipating the CSS solo strings.


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## 5Lives (Oct 18, 2016)

Which company has a better track record of fixing issues? OT or Spitfire?


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## NoamL (Oct 18, 2016)

I am expecting CSB to have the same sampling setup as HWB/CB. Actually, quite possibly even more pared down.

Something like -

1/2/4 hn
1/3 tpt
1/3 tbn
1 tuba

would not surprise me.

Sampling all 11 brass instrs would end up with a library twice as large and expensive as CSS. Pretty sure the market for CSB will be the same as CSS - midrange $400-ish lib, standard features, no frills, great sound.

I bought BB but I'm still a CSO fan, can't wait to see what's next in that series.


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## ctsai89 (Oct 18, 2016)

5Lives said:


> Which company has a better track record of fixing issues? OT or Spitfire?



pretty sure it's orchestral tools. Spitfire keeps moving on to making new stuff so it's like they can just forget all the symphonic stuff they did. I still pick spitfire over orchestral though due to the sound.


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## 5Lives (Oct 18, 2016)

Spitfire has promised some fixes for the Brass library, so let's see if that happens. I'm holding off on Berlin Brass until some more reviews come in. I also personally like the sound of Spitfire stuff.


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## SoNowWhat? (Oct 18, 2016)

NoamL said:


> I am expecting CSB to have the same sampling setup as HWB/CB. Actually, quite possibly even more pared down.
> 
> Something like -
> 
> ...


Chuck some autodivisi into the mix and that could be quite tasty.


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## jamwerks (Oct 19, 2016)

Composers of trailer music probably won't want all the soloists. The 3D sound-stage just isn't that important. But for orchestral based work, BB will probably set the new precedent. We already know that Century Brass doesn't have all the soloists.

But when VSL comes out with their next Winds & Brass, I'd imagine that they'll do all the multiple soloists in place on the stage. After hearing all the videos of BB, I'm really missing BWW not having the exact same mic positions as the rest of the Berlin line. They still sound great, but the 3D is not quite as good.


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## camelot (Oct 19, 2016)

jamwerks said:


> But when VSL comes out with their next Winds & Brass, I'd imagine that they'll do all the multiple soloists is place on the stage.


It is the second time, I read remarks like this.
Is there any official statement that VSL will abandon their concept of the silent stage and record samples in the newly acquired Syncron Stage? Up to now it sounds like they only offer the stage for production to others.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Oct 22, 2016)

I have both and in the process of finishing the download of berlin brass right now. I was thinking to compare them plus some other libraries. Any suggestions on what you like to see in the comparison video?


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## milesito (Oct 22, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> I have both and in the process of finishing the download of berlin brass right now. I was thinking to compare them plus some other libraries. Any suggestions on what you like to see in the comparison video?


Any way to still add Hollywood brass and cinebrass to your review please?


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## Thorsten Meyer (Oct 22, 2016)

Cinebrass, maybe hwb and some others


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## muk (Oct 22, 2016)

camelot said:


> Is there any official statement that VSL will abandon their concept of the silent stage and record samples in the newly acquired Syncron Stage?



Not from VSL. But there is an article in mixonline about synchron stage:

http://www.mixonline.com/news/facilities/cover-synchron-stage-vienna/427375

If you read the paragraph under 'Back to the Future' there is a remark that 'Since October 2015, they have been test-driving Stage A, recording scores with Sands and sampling instruments for the library'. If that is true, VSL is indeed sampling instruments in Synchron Stage.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 22, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> I have both and in the process of finishing the download of berlin brass right now. I was thinking to compare them plus some other libraries. Any suggestions on what you like to see in the comparison video?


Yeah, I have a suggestion. Render this:


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## Thorsten Meyer (Oct 22, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Yeah, I have a suggestion. Render this:



Thanks mate


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## Rodney Money (Oct 22, 2016)

Thorsten Meyer said:


> Thanks mate


My pleasure.


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## Reactor.UK (Oct 22, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> My pleasure.


Beautiful piece Rodney. I live in Yorkshire (we have quite a few good colliery brass bands ) so to hear that brought back fond memories. Thank you.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 22, 2016)

Reactor.UK said:


> Beautiful piece Rodney. I live in Yorkshire (we have quite a few good colliery brass bands ) so to hear that brought back fond memories. Thank you.


I was so born on the wrong continent! I absolutely love brass bands and their instruments. For anyone who is interested, here's the entire section. This is in its raw form. One day when I get finish with some of my recent commissions, I can restart this work. This is part of my 3rd movement of a symphony that's been in my head for years. It will probably be rescored for entire orchestra one day even though people have asked me to not do it. Thank you so much for your compliments, my friend.


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## rottoy (Oct 22, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> I was so born on the wrong continent! I absolutely love brass bands and their instruments. For anyone who is interested, here's the entire section. This is in its raw form. One day when I get finish with some of my recent commissions, I can restart this work. This is part of my 3rd movement of a symphony that's been in my head for years. It will probably be rescored for entire orchestra one day even though people have asked me to not do it. Thank you so much for your compliments, my friend.



And here I thought you actually had the hubris to name a piece "Beautiful Brass Example".
That would have been funny.


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## Rodney Money (Oct 22, 2016)

rottoy said:


> And here I thought you actually had the hubris to name a piece "Beautiful Brass Example".
> That would have been funny.


Lol, I know right? I actually wanted to call it, "Piece of Crap I'm Not Happy With"


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## rottoy (Oct 22, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Lol, I know right? I actually wanted to call it, "Piece of Crap I'm Not Happy With"


Or just "Hymn In Memory of the Fallen Sample Libraries"


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## camelot (Oct 22, 2016)

muk said:


> Not from VSL. But there is an article in mixonline about synchron stage:
> 
> http://www.mixonline.com/news/facilities/cover-synchron-stage-vienna/427375
> 
> If you read the paragraph under 'Back to the Future' there is a remark that 'Since October 2015, they have been test-driving Stage A, recording scores with Sands and sampling instruments for the library'. If that is true, VSL is indeed sampling instruments in Synchron Stage.



Thanks for that. That whould be the first time that I read something like that. Recording their samples with room makes their MIR superfluous. But it would be really interesting to see what will come out. Their sampling and programming has the highest quality I know of.


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## Thorsten Meyer (Oct 23, 2016)

Berlin Brass compared with other Virtual Instruments.

With the release of Berlin Brass by Orchestral Tools it is time to compare the Berlin Brass instruments with other already available libraries on the market. I did pick some of the leading libraries which are available to me given that they run in Kontakt. 

I did not put all articulations on the spot, with one long and one short articulation the video is already 40isch minutes. Other brass libraries do offer additional instruments. I always started with the instrument available in Berlin Brass and compare other libraries against the one from Orchestral Tools-

Berlin Brass Solo and Ensemble Instruments Compared:
Horn
Trumpet
Trombone
Bass Trombone
Tuba

http://www.orchestraltools.com/libraries/berlin_brass.php


Included Instruments:
Berlin Brass by Orchestral Tools
Spitfire Symphonic Brass by Spitfire Audio
Albion One by Spitfire Audio
Albion V Tundra by Spitfire Audio
CineBrass by CineSample
Symphony Series – Brass Solo by SOUNDIRON
Symphony Series – Brass Ensemble by SOUNDIRON
Bravura Scoring Brass by Impact Soundworks
Metropolis Ark 1 by Orchestral Tools
Majestica by 8Dio


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## Flux (Nov 13, 2016)

Having decided that my next major purchase will be a brass library, I am stuck between SSB or BB. Currently I use BWW, SCS, and Spitfire Percussion, so both would blend well with my current libraries. Does either library excel more in the warm, soft brass sound?


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## Daniel F. (Nov 13, 2016)

Flux said:


> Having decided that my next major purchase will be a brass library, I am stuck between SSB or BB. Currently I use BWW, SCS, and Spitfire Percussion, so both would blend well with my current libraries. Does either library excel more in the warm, soft brass sound?



Berlin Brass hands down for me. If not for the sound itself OT is one of the best devs I know. But as I've said before BB does the soft parts very well while falling short on the loud ones. SSB is good and has good loud dynamics in the 6 horns and 6 trumpets but I don't think it beats BB when it comes to softer parts. The solo horn in SSB is really good but you only get one solo horn so you can't do voice stacking or triads with different solo horns for example.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 13, 2016)

Flux said:


> Having decided that my next major purchase will be a brass library, I am stuck between SSB or BB. Currently I use BWW, SCS, and Spitfire Percussion, so both would blend well with my current libraries. Does either library excel more in the warm, soft brass sound?


I don't own both (only BB though I have several other Spitfire Libs) but, I think either would work well (subject to your use and workflow). Both have received praise and both have some (minor?) flaws. Both devs have excellent reputations. I guess it comes down to what sort of music you want to write, how you write it and what instruments and articulation are available in each library vs what you need. That was what drove my choice of BB, I really wanted the divisi options.


Of course this is assuming you are only going to get one and have to make a choice


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## Rodney Money (Nov 13, 2016)

Well, my friends, there is truly only one way that we can settle this: If both Spitfire and Orchestral Tools would send me their wonderful libraries for free, then I could review them both as only a brass player could which is... with brutal honesty.


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## Smikes77 (Nov 13, 2016)

Rodney Money said:


> Well, my friends, there is truly only one way that we can settle this: If both Spitfire and Orchestral Tools would send me their wonderful libraries for free, then I could review them both as only a brass player could which is... with brutal honesty.



I don`t see we have any other options.


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## SoNowWhat? (Nov 13, 2016)

Smikes77 said:


> I don`t see we have any other options.


Agreed.
Will you tell them, or will I Rodney?


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## Smikes77 (Nov 13, 2016)

SoNowWhat? said:


> Agreed.
> Will you tell them, or will I Rodney?



Haha!!!

One word, two articulations,

Rod (key switch) Ney


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## Black Light Recordings (Jan 10, 2017)

Guys
I have SSB (and I love it) but I don't have BB. I do own BWW and I'm seriously considering the purchase of BB. Here is why. Going only form the demos, BB seems to do the stabby (is that a word) JW action stuff really well. My SSB shines in lyrical writing, especially the solo trumpet and trumpet a2 patches. To be honest, I've been hit or miss with Phalanx a6 patches and getting them to sit in my mix has been troublesome at times (that could be do to my lackluster mixing skills though). 

In any event here is a piece I composed where I thought the SSB trumpets sounded great (although and less and less happy about the composition itself these days ) 



And here is a mock up of a JW piece where I thought SSB struggled a bit.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 10, 2017)

Black Light Recordings said:


> Guys
> I have SSB (and I love it) but I don't have BB. I do own BWW and I'm seriously considering the purchase of BB. Here is why. Going only form the demos, BB seems to do the stabby (is that a word) JW action stuff really well. My SSB shines in lyrical writing, especially the solo trumpet and trumpet a2 patches. To be honest, I've been hit or miss with Phalanx a6 patches and getting them to sit in my mix has been troublesome at times (that could be do to my lackluster mixing skills though).
> 
> In any event here is a piece I composed where I thought the SSB trumpets sounded great (although and less and less happy about the composition itself these days )
> ...




I have heavily to disagree in regards that SSB is not good in doing such things. You just need to spent more time using the library imo. Your rendering does not do it but not because the library can´t do it but because you should learn more in that regards also in general when it comes to balance a template. Your mix has also a way too harsh upper frequencies, gues you processed it too much here also.


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## dcoscina (Jan 10, 2017)

I don't have any issues with SSB for punchy brass myself. I'd dial back on the room ambience or turn up the close mic setting to get more definition to the sound but I think they sound just fine.


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## markleake (Jan 10, 2017)

@Black Light Recordings I agree with @AlexanderSchiborr and @dcoscina. It sounds more like a mixing problem or issue with how the libs are set up in the template, such as mics used, how the group channels are set up, etc. I also agree with Alex on the high frequencies sounding harsh - the end of the first track is hard to enjoy due to this.

Also, I would hardly think BB is going to be the best lib at reproducing a John Williams track that has heavy emphasis on the top dynamics of the brass. You will be disapointed I think.


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## Black Light Recordings (Jan 11, 2017)

@AlexanderSchiborr. Great composition. Thanks for sharing. You absolutely got a better sound out of SSB than I did. I've been working on a project for the last two days so hopefully I'll get a cleaner mix when I finish writing. For my untrained ears, there is still some punch in the BB staccato articulations from the demos that I haven't heard from SSB....yet. It all boils down to what I can get out of the lib so I will absolutely spend some more quality time with the lib and experiment with different articulations and mix applications. @markleake , @dcoscina I'll start with all close mics, level all faders and go from the ground up on the mix with a lot of A/B comparison. Tanks for the tips.

May inspiration be ever at your fingers and your DAW never freeze.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 11, 2017)

Black Light Recordings said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr. Great composition. Thanks for sharing. You absolutely got a better sound out of SSB than I did. I've been working on a project for the last two days so hopefully I'll get a cleaner mix when I finish writing. For my untrained ears, there is still some punch in the BB staccato articulations from the demos that I haven't heard from SSB....yet. It all boils down to what I can get out of the lib so I will absolutely spend some more quality time with the lib and experiment with different articulations and mix applications. @markleake , @dcoscina I'll start with all close mics, level all faders and go from the ground up on the mix with a lot of A/B comparison. Tanks for the tips.
> 
> May inspiration be ever at your fingers and your DAW never freeze.



That sounds excellent. If you need any help just let me know.


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## markleake (Jan 11, 2017)

Black Light Recordings said:


> I'll start with all close mics, level all faders and go from the ground up on the mix with a lot of A/B comparison.


Not that I am an expert in mixing, or one to question Alex either, as he has a lot of experience... but starting with close mics on a Spitfire library? Is that a good idea?


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 11, 2017)

markleake said:


> Not that I am an expert in mixing, or one to question Alex either, as he has a lot of experience... but starting with close mics on a Spitfire library? Is that a good idea?


@Black Light Recordings

Well, I overlooked that..sorry. the point is the following: Using close micings only I wouldn´t recommend to balance a template from scratch because normally every live recording is a mix of so many multiple micings, but prominently when we are speaking of orchestral recordings with bigger ensembles in a hall or bigger recording stage, it is the tree and ambient micings which are prominently there PLUS some closer section micings, sometimes spot micings for trumpets, depends on the piece and philosophy of the recording enginners also, but in that case with spitfire brass you can add the close to the tree and/or ambient mics to see if the close signal adds something good to the sound. In my example track (the blaster stuff) which I did in the other thread I had just used a mix of tree and ambient mics to establish a basic balance. The reason is the following: Overall, but ecpsecially brass behaves totally different sonically when you are using close or a tree mic. The big sound from brass really is the result of the reverberation in the room and so when you are working with close micing only you get not the idea how much in relation to other instruments you have to put the faders etc.
My advice here: Take a recording which is off course not totally dry, like a film soundtrack, lets take star wars Episode III Soundtrack, and then find a part where you are able to point out single section playing or even you can start with Horn Ensemble which plays the theme melody. I often do that by myself: I take a part where the french horn ensemble are prominently audible and playing on forte, and then I load in a Horn Patch which matches similiar ensemble size, and try to balance the loudness of forte in the sampler with the forte in the recording. And that I do with a couple of other instruments too, like trumpets, solo trumpet, the trombones, maybe there is a part where the celli are playing as well, and if you do it precise you already have established a relation between a few of the instruments, which is good and when done right, it is not that hard to add the rest. Because then you have an idea how loud the rest might be even if they are not part of the live recording. Of course a little bit of experience and training you need for that. But it is imo a good approach to get a template balanced or a start for it.
But yeah: Not only close micings as the reasons mentioned before.


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## Black Light Recordings (Jan 11, 2017)

markleake said:


> Not that I am an expert in mixing, or one to question Alex either, as he has a lot of experience... but starting with close mics on a Spitfire library? Is that a good idea?



Sorry Guys. What I meant was start with close mics and dial in the trees (and maybe some outrigger) to really fine tune the library sound first before I reach for anything else (reverb, EQ, compressor). Start at the bottom then work my way up.


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 11, 2017)

Black Light Recordings said:


> Sorry Guys. What I meant was start with close mics and dial in the trees (and maybe some outrigger) to really fine tune the library sound first before I reach for anything else (reverb, EQ, compressor). Start at the bottom then work my way up.


Ah allright, yeah. 
A little tip for you, experiment with the trumpet a6 fanfare patch. Depending on the velocity it created a different amount of short articulations. Around 60 it has really short stabby ones, while at 80-100 they sound a tad longer and at 110 or even above you get the longer ones. You also can use the modwheel, no you should use it to shape those lines. Experiment with it. I got really awesome stabby triplet and brutal things out of the sound. And it is not enough you can mix those things with the multi tongue a6 patches. So to avoid the problem of machine gun effect when you have 3 or more notes of the same in a row.


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## markleake (Jan 11, 2017)

Black Light Recordings said:


> Sorry Guys. What I meant was start with close mics and dial in the trees (and maybe some outrigger) to really fine tune the library sound first before I reach for anything else (reverb, EQ, compressor). Start at the bottom then work my way up.



You will loose the sense of distance (and the wonderful Air hall sound!) that is built into the recordings if you use the close mics as the basis of your sound. IMHO, close mics aren't a good base to start from. You should always start with the tree mics (or equivalent), not close mics. Especially for brass. Then you can play with adding in close and ambient mics.

In general, you would dial in more close mics on the short articulations if they are getting too blury in quick passages, or because you like the more defined sound. You should also consider adding your own reverb (just a small amount) to the longs plus the overall master, as that may help the tials sound a little more real and blend things together a bit. It's not essential though and depends on the type of track. To manage shorts/longs I try to set up my templates with short articulations seperate from the longs, and then approach mixing the mics and any reverb based on that seperation. Remember that shorts behave differently to longs -- that may be part of the reason you are having problems with SSB, if you are treating them the same for a somewhat demanding track. I put my shorts in a seperate Kontakt instance. If you are using the performance patches, then obviously you can't take this approach then.

If you feel like you really must treat the brass more and use mostly the close mics, then remember that brass needs to sound as if it's coming from the back of the orchestra, which means dulling the higher frequencies a bit, the brass can be a smidge softer, for reverb it won't have really that much there in terms of early reflections, and will have very low numbers on your reverb pre-delay (ie. the direct sound and reflected sound reaching you very close togehter). I really don't think that is a good overall approach though, and it likely means you've got something wrong if you need to go to this extent. Of course some minor EQ and such is fine, but you should be almost to the point of not needing that kind of treament just from your mixing and from proper orchestration of your track. Spitfire libraries usually don't need much help to sound good or work well together.

I am far from a mixing expert though, so just saying what works for me. I've heard some very good sounding tracks by people who only use the tree mics -- all they've done is get the mix right between sections, maybe done some mild processing, and that's it. I've not had too many problems with just sticking to the basics with SF libs, as they are usually pretty great out of the box. It's the main reason I use Spitfire. I've never tried to write anything Star Wars style though.


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## Musicam (Jan 11, 2017)

The wonderful Air hall sound. This is the reason.


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## markleake (Jan 11, 2017)

@Black Light Recordings Sorry, one thing to add... in your Folded Flag track, I think you need to work on the dynamics. I hear the strings being cut off very sharpy quite often.


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## markleake (Jan 11, 2017)

Musicam said:


> The wonderful Air hall sound. This is the reason.


Yep!


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## Black Light Recordings (Jan 15, 2017)

AlexanderSchiborr said:


> That sounds excellent. If you need any help just let me know.


@AlexanderSchiborr. Got a quick question. I'm working on a piece and it has this fanfare in it. This is typical of some the writing that this piece has. Take a listen and let me know what articulations you would use. I've got a simple first inversion triad here with trumpets @6 (fanfare) on the 5th, trumpets @2 on the 3rd (staccato) and solo trumpet (staccato) on the root. Trombones are arranged similarly an octave down.

What articulations would you use here? Keep in mind, there is no mix here. I'm still writing the piece. All spitfire (tree mics maxed with close @ 8 or so).

Let me know.

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fanfare-mp3.7159/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## AlexanderSchiborr (Jan 16, 2017)

Black Light Recordings said:


> @AlexanderSchiborr. Got a quick question. I'm working on a piece and it has this fanfare in it. This is typical of some the writing that this piece has. Take a listen and let me know what articulations you would use. I've got a simple first inversion triad here with trumpets @6 (fanfare) on the 5th, trumpets @2 on the 3rd (staccato) and solo trumpet (staccato) on the root. Trombones are arranged similarly an octave down.
> 
> What articulations would you use here? Keep in mind, there is no mix here. I'm still writing the piece. All spitfire (tree mics maxed with close @ 8 or so).
> 
> ...



Hi!

Before I start to write an essay here, I loaded up both the mp3 and the midi export. Just look into it. I had spent 15 minutes of time to create that, that is not much, when I would write a track like that I normally spent a bit more time on those crucial spots.
In the end: For me it is important, that it sounds not to perfect. Ecscpecially in context with other things ongoing it is totally fine and it helps to get a bit of a live feeling. For me your example lacks unfortunately of 3 things here:

Too much on point.
Static triplet feeling (no Groove)
Too Static in dynamics

You need really to put more of detailed work into those fanfarish lines, listen to live orchestra situations. Do they really play those triplets according to the triplets on the grid. No they often don´t According to notation and programmed line someone could say: They play wrong, but they don´t. They play it how they feel. And that is so crucial. First before I did orchestrate that short spot I played a couple of times the fanfare just on my keyboard to see how it should feel. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/75thum3ch1d4blu/AS_Fanfare.mid?dl=0

[AUDIOPLUS=http://www.vi-control.net/community/attachments/as_fanfare-mp3.7160/][/AUDIOPLUS]
PS: My rendering isn´t perfect at all, but gives you a bit of an idea?

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/as_fanfare-mp3.7160/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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## humco (Jan 16, 2017)

What I don't understand when I see these demos, how do you dial in mic adjustments in a composition? I push midi map in ableton then click on dials and thing in kontakt, but can never get them to map. I guess you midi map within kontakt? 

Key switching I get, and use frequently, but just wondering how you program the deeper controls


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## humco (Jan 16, 2017)

Ok here's a good one, I don't wanna derail just lemme know if I am... how do you dial in vibrado, there's always expression sliders but they only seem to control dynamics. Do you just volume fade in a tremolo patch when you need it. I have Albion 1, and ARK 1/2, maybe the SSO/SB or BB have additional vibrato faders that these all in ones don't have.

I'm trying to decide between SA and OT as well


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## ctsai89 (Jan 16, 2017)

humco said:


> What I don't understand when I see these demos, how do you dial in mic adjustments in a composition? I push midi map in ableton then click on dials and thing in kontakt, but can never get them to map. I guess you midi map within kontakt?
> 
> Key switching I get, and use frequently, but just wondering how you program the deeper controls



you need to have a controller set up for it. Dynamics is CC#1 and expression is only volume levels.

You can also crossfade vibrato using CC#21 for spitfire. This kind of thing shouldn't be the deciding factor for the library. However, if you have 1 OT product, don't go try to mix spitfire with it in the same template because they use differen't CC# controls. Unless you want to spend just a tiny bit more time organizing CC's to match each other. Besides that, the halls sound dfiferent. 

My whole template is spitfire. I don't even have to mix them in volume and they sound realistic right out of the box.

Hope it helps.


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## markleake (Jan 16, 2017)

I don't know anything about Ableton, but if it is like any other DAW, there should be a way of automating the CC (continuous controllers) which are used to control dynamics, vibrato etc. In most Kontakt instruments, you can right click a visual control on the instrument, and it well tell you what CC controls it and allows you to change it. Then it is just a case of putting the CC changes into your DAW, either by recording the CC (eg. mod wheel) changes as you play, or by you manually entering it somehow.

Basically, best way to learn... go find on YouTube some examples in Ableton where people are doing this.


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## Black Light Recordings (Jan 17, 2017)

@AlexanderSchiborr Thanks a million for taking the time to put that together. I'm still writing the piece but as soon as I finish the composition I'll go through the midi and start tweaking. Really looking forward to getting into this.

Thanks again.


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## Black Light Recordings (Feb 8, 2017)

@AlexanderSchiborr Re worked the fanfare from what I learned studying yours and it sounds much better. Plus I got a much better mix. I think I can get some more out of it though. Thanks again.

[AUDIOPLUS=http://vi-control.net/community/attachments/fanfare-stereo-out-mp3.7380/][/AUDIOPLUS]


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