# What to study for next level of Composing?



## Dr.Quest (Aug 15, 2006)

I've been doing music and sound design since 1989 with a stint in folk music since 1982.
As I get more film work I realize I need to get faster and better at composing in order to keep things interesting. This last year or so I've done two 45 minute cartoon that were wall to wall music as well as several 30 minute shows. I've ordered the Volume one of The Alexender version of Rimsky-Korsakov (which hasn't arrived as of yet) but I would like to find some study course that would be interesting. I don't read music well so EIS might be a little out of my league. Any thoughts on a course of action for new studies? I usually do well with some teacher interaction but I'm at a loss as to direction.
Any thoughts from anyone?
J


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## Waywyn (Aug 16, 2006)

Hey man,

well i can feel with you in terms of notes and score etc. but more and more i have the feeling that avoiding notes and theory is like working in a strange country but you don't speak the language. you can survive with hand signs and friendly gestures but you simply can't communicate.

at least i had this feeling for a long time. when i started with sight reading on guitar, getting down all the diatonic theory stuff and now studying EIS i really think that i am becoming a member of this country plus i realise all the advantages it has.

i can simply talk with anyone i like.

on the other hand i don't understand why you can work with the rimsky stuff but you still assume that you have problems with EIS? i find as long as you are familiar with reading notes and stuff you won't have problems with EIS.

just my 2,5 cents


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## Dr.Quest (Aug 16, 2006)

My problem is this. I've been doing music long enough to know many things, not all of them correct but I usually use that to my advantage. The thing I am facing now is that people like what I do. They say I can guide a story correctly with sound design and music to make it better then they had imagined. This is all well and good but now with the decrease in finishing time (I had 3 weeks to score a 45 minute show that I was also the editor on), I'm finding I can hear a lot of cool things in my head but don't always know how to get them out. When I'm in the zone I can move along pretty well but sometimes I come back a few days later, like what I've done but have no idea where it came from and couldn't duplicate it if I tried. A few years ago I had to score a short film that the editor temped with a piece of music I thought was pretty cool and fit picture well. I struggled awhile to duplicate the feel of it but couldn't quite get it right. I realized later it was a piece I wrote a year before for something else and had completely forgotten about. The dreaded temp score I had to fight against was myself!:shock: 
I like the idea of EIS but the web site is a bit unclear. Where do you order the materials from? All it says is "coming soon".
J


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## Waywyn (Aug 16, 2006)

I think if you just drop a PM to Craig, he will help you out


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## rJames (Aug 16, 2006)

Jamie, Folman's idea is on target. The more I study EIS (which I absolutely love) the more I realize that style and being in the current mode is paramount.

I don't really like to listen, but every day I find it is more important.

Regarding EIS. If you want to take what is in your head and make if music for others to hear, EIS is right for you.

Especially in the early levels, EIS is really about training your ears to hear and correlating it to notes and harmonies. Also, reading, piano...all the basics. I've said all that before.

I played trumpet through high school, so I could read music in treble clef. Translating bass clef, and reading lots of notes to see the vertical structure is tough. I still can't read well. It makes analyzing scores tougher. 

But I can analyze music using my ears and a piano quite well.


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 16, 2006)

It's all about vocabulary. whether it is RK's orchestration book, EIS or anything else, it is about gaining vocabulary. There are plenty of good sounding composers on the forums who do not know know a stitch of theory. At least they think that. If they were to study they would suddenly realize there is a name for what they are doing. There are usually more holes in their composing though, or they may be limited by not knowing how to apply things to other genres. Sometimes building vocabulary can pull you away from writing music, like trying to stick a new word in conversation. Once you can freely use this word, you are glad you learned it and can not imagine not knowing it. Music theory is sort of the same way. 

As far as RK or EIS is concerned, recoginition of notes is mandatory, as it would be with any method. Sight reading is not.


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## Dr.Quest (Aug 16, 2006)

I can recognize the notes, at least in treble clef. I can plunck my way through sheet music to see what it's about but it's always been about hearing it and learning it for me.
J


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## Craig Sharmat (Aug 16, 2006)

You will need to recognize bass clef also for pretty much any theory study, and for studying written orchestration, alto and other various clefs along with transposition.


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## Scott Rogers (Aug 16, 2006)

..........


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## Dr.Quest (Aug 16, 2006)

All good advise for sure. I forgot to mention that I'm on the older side (somewhere south of Nick B.'s age). Don't know how much room is left in the old brain cells.
J


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## Ned Bouhalassa (Aug 16, 2006)

I hear ya, I hear ya...


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## rJames (Aug 16, 2006)

You only live life once (as far as we can remember). You are as young as you ever will be.

I started studying EIS when I was 52. I am only about 1+ years older and I know a heck of a lot of ways to approach writing than I did a year ago.

IMHO Studying something will keep your mind younger.


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## Scott Rogers (Aug 16, 2006)

..........


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## Dr.Quest (Aug 16, 2006)

Yeah, that coffee thing will work just fine I think.
And look at ol' Ron there. Spry as ever!
J


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## rJames (Aug 16, 2006)

Had a feeling that was gonna backfire on me.

Now, if someone could just get me my cane, I'll dust myself off and be outta here!


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## spoon (Oct 8, 2006)

hi there

:oops: uh, would you mind explaining what EIS is???

Seems to be the keyword in this topic...

cu
marco


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## bugs (Oct 8, 2006)

Dr.Quest @ Tue Aug 15 said:


> I don't read music ...
> J



I would definitely address this issue.


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## sbkp (Oct 8, 2006)

spoon @ Sun Oct 08 said:


> would you mind explaining what EIS is???



Here's the short version:

http://www.equalinterval.com/


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## spoon (Oct 8, 2006)

thanks.
sounds interesting...


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 9, 2006)

Dr.Quest @ Tue Aug 15 said:


> I've been doing music and sound design since 1989 with a stint in folk music since 1982.
> As I get more film work I realize I need to get faster and better at composing in order to keep things interesting. This last year or so I've done two 45 minute cartoon that were wall to wall music as well as several 30 minute shows. I've ordered the Volume one of The Alexender version of Rimsky-Korsakov (which hasn't arrived as of yet) but I would like to find some study course that would be interesting. I don't read music well so EIS might be a little out of my league. Any thoughts on a course of action for new studies? I usually do well with some teacher interaction but I'm at a loss as to direction.
> Any thoughts from anyone?
> J



Start with this:
http://www.professionalorchestration.co ... posers.pdf


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## rJames (Oct 9, 2006)

Good reading, Peter. Good news for me! (Caution, tongue-in-cheek comment approaching)

"In his office/studio, songwriter and film composer Henry Mancini had a piano and a desk in an L-formation. With the upright piano against the wall, his writing desk, at a 90-degree angle, was to the immediate right. Go into the studios of film composers who read and write music, and you’ll find a similar setup."

My desktop computer screen and my midi keyboard are directly in front of me and to my right...a laptop. I'm on my way.


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## Peter Alexander (Oct 9, 2006)

rJames @ Mon Oct 09 said:


> Good reading, Peter. Good news for me! (Caution, tongue-in-cheek comment approaching)
> 
> "In his office/studio, songwriter and film composer Henry Mancini had a piano and a desk in an L-formation. With the upright piano against the wall, his writing desk, at a 90-degree angle, was to the immediate right. Go into the studios of film composers who read and write music, and you’ll find a similar setup."
> 
> My desktop computer screen and my midi keyboard are directly in front of me and to my right...a laptop. I'm on my way.



Thanks, but in line with the findings, what do you see for yourself about going to the next study level for composing?


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## rJames (Oct 9, 2006)

I'm very lucky to have a few mentors. (some of them are the members here at VI) Plus there's that 15 hours a day.

If you're referring to my EIS studies; it is the most worthwhile and rewarding course I've ever studied. It is like looking at music through a crystal ball (partly magnifying and partly mystical revelation); totally clarifying.

But it is a scholastic venture that has to be "realized" through emulation of what clients want to buy. And so...only goes so far.

I think your article is quite true regarding learning and teaching yourself. The info is there but the student has to extrapolate and make it their own.

Regarding Jamie's quandry. Today is the first day of the rest of your life...break down and learn to read better.

There is no better course, no better method, no more instinctual regimen for you to get quicker at scoring than EIS.

You don't have to read fast to study EIS. You have to learn how to read fast. (as you go) And spend more time, like I had to do.


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## ugisiger (Nov 25, 2006)

hi
simple question: what is EIS?

many thanks
Ueli


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## rJames (Nov 25, 2006)

ugisiger @ Sat Nov 25 said:


> hi
> simple question: what is EIS?
> many thanks
> Ueli



Ueli, not so simple answer. 

EIS is a music course given as private lessons. It was developed over half a century by Lyle Spud Murphy to help define music in a new way for a new era in music.

The course, for me, is a total breakthrough in understanding what music is, what harmony is, and what the mechanics for creating it (or arranging it) are.

It is based on the naturally ocurring overtone series and exploits that natural resonance or consonance. (that is inherent in a single tone)

Diatonic music is a small, small part of EIS (although the method of communicating to musicians, who all were taught predominately with diatonic methods is paramount throughout the course).

In my opinion, it treats music as a science to be fully understood on its logical underlying realities. It allows you to put on paper, or into a DAW, what you hear in your head. ANd it gives you new ideas to dream about. It expands your horizons.

It is ear training, piano training, sight reading and the study of harmonics as distributed over time in a rhythmic pattern (composing) all at once.

He subtly outlines many, many different ways to go about composing, teaches you how to understand what another composer has done by looking at their music.

It is an extremely efficient way to look at music.

The course was created for professional musicians to further their understanding of music. But, as long as you have the basics of reading music to some degree and playing piano to some degree and are willing to work, it is for anyone who wants to explore music.

When I started, I could read the treble clef (and knew that I could shift everything to read the bass clef) and I knew where the notes were on the piano. And I could play simple chords on my right hand with a doubled bass in the left.


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## ugisiger (Nov 25, 2006)

many thanks for the information. 
found it on http://www.equalinterval.com/.
i understand in a "broad view" what he is doing. with overtones in the back of your mind you can understand/hear the world of tones - independend of culture. i will have a look at it.

Ueli


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## ugisiger (Nov 25, 2006)

>>his writing desk, at a 90-degree angle

surprisely it's what i have. but i have a dual screen (24" wide + 20") setup and 2 speaker sets with an spl monitor controller. so i can put my visual and acoustic "display" at the place where i need it. one time at the desk, or one time at the keys. one screen is in front of my keyboard so i see what's going on the screen and on my hands at the same time. also is my desk changeable in the hight, so i can also stand for working when i want. 
it's not only for music, it's also for animation and media-development. 3 x dual xeon system controlled by a kvm switch. music is my last area i develop. the IT-base is always the same. the only thing i can say worth every cent. it's production at its best. 

Ueli


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## Scott Rogers (Nov 25, 2006)

..........


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## rJames (Nov 25, 2006)

Scott Rogers @ Sat Nov 25 said:


> A useful breakdown of these contrapuntal/harmonic frameworks usually covered would be functional/tonal, non-functional/ambiguous, extended, non-tertian, chromatic, modal, pandiatonic , polytonal, polymodal, polysynthetic, "added note", multi-tonic, serial, atonal, et cetera.
> 
> Practice is usually made with each contrapuntal/harmonic framework by employing the ten fundamental musical structures and their variants as "housings" for that raw musical material. Some frameworks seem to lend themselves better to certain structures while others are more malleable.
> 
> Hope this helps.



Scott, you know that I have an extremem amount of respect for you and your knowledge. Just as I would John Williams, who did not study EIS.

Your listing above regarding contrapuntal/harmonic frameworks helps a lot. This is exactly what is needed in this thread. Spud wanted to get rid of all that nomclature nonsense.

Whether you know the name of some sort of system or methodology is not the point. Creating music without boundaries IS the point. So, he set out to demystify all the things that he had taken so many years to discover.

When you study EIS (even though it inevitably becomes a system) you are studying music without a system. Spud deliberately tried to leave labels off and include all material.

Scott, you have studied music for how long? I have studied EIS for 1 1/2 years to maybe 2 years now.

Yes, there are methods in "conventional" study that are not diatonic. And yes, I am pretty much speaking out of my ass since I haven't studied (music) at a university.

I'm not sure most university programs throw out key signatures in the first semester.

My point is this. EIS cuts through to the core of music without studying style at all (although, here too, it ineveitably appears).

I wonder how many composers here besides you know that "diatonic" does not describe a conventional musical education.

And finally, maybe a direct question.

How many of these methods (functional/tonal, non-functional/ambiguous, extended, non-tertian, chromatic, modal, pandiatonic , polytonal, polymodal, polysynthetic, "added note", multi-tonic, serial, atonal, et cetera.) are not studied from a perspective that uses diatonic as the base?

Polytonal sounds like a blend of diatonic tonalities.
Polymodal sounds VERY diatonic.
Added-note...added to what? A diatonic tonality?
Multi-tonic, maybe multiple diatonic aspects??

My guess is that even atonal describes the workload in terms of diatonic.

Spud didn't do that with EIS. That's all.

Where have you been Scott, I have missed you. I love to discuss music even though I don't know what I'm talking about.


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## Scott Rogers (Nov 25, 2006)

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## Scott Rogers (Nov 26, 2006)

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## Dave Connor (Nov 27, 2006)

There is no substitute for a good teacher one on one. Questions get answered immediately instead of getting filed in the frustration box in the brain. Hopefully you are taken on a journey in these lessons to places you would never have traveled (my experience.)

Good private lessons (apprenticeship) are quantum beyond any other form of learning as history seems to suggest. A handful are innate geniuses but even Mozart was a diligent student (as were the other titans.) The problem in much of film music today is no real study of composition. It shows.


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