# Upgrading to an IMac?



## MoSound (Jan 26, 2022)

I have a 2012 MacPro and I'd like to upgrade my OS but I'm maxed out. Ultimately, I'd like a new Macpro desktop but they are a fortune! Wholly moly! Can anyone comment on upgrading to an IMac and what limitations there are Versus a Macpro desktop? I know some Imac models have fixed RAM that can't be upgraded. I've also considered a Macpro trash can but the ones I've seen seem to be all 2013 models and there's talk of them running hot...


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## jbuhler (Jan 26, 2022)

27” iMacs work well and are user upgradable to 128GB in both i7 and i9 configurations. I have the i9. The Intel iMacs are likely now at EOL and will be replaced by some form of the new architecture soon. I’d recommend waiting if you can. If you can’t both the i7 and i9 iMacs are very capable machines. Buy with minimum memory and upgrade RAM with third party.


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## timprebble (Jan 26, 2022)

In the past I always used a MacPro Tower and Avid io, but a few years back switched to a 27" iMac with 64GB RAM + MOTU AVB io (16a + 1248 + 828x2) and it's been excellent!! I ordered my iMac with basic 8GB RAM and did upgrades to 64GB myself via OWC - they have handy videos showing how to do it:
https://eshop.macsales.com 

I also got a VESA mount specifically for my iMac (website I got mine from has disappeared but I'd imagine they are available) so I float my iMac above my desk using a monitor arm. I also run a second monitor/large TV using one of the Thunderbolt outputs. (Other Thunderbolt goes to MOTU io and then to a couple of RAIDs)


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## glyster (Jan 27, 2022)

The new iMacs are not user upgradable. For that reason I recently switched to Windows with Cubase from Logic Pro X on iMac. I'd recommend PC, a lot more value for your money.


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## timprebble (Jan 27, 2022)

glyster said:


> The new iMacs are not user upgradable. For that reason I recently switched to Windows with Cubase from Logic Pro X on iMac. I'd recommend PC, a lot more value for your money.



Just out of interest, how much $ do you think you saved?
Because to me that isn't an upgrade. What you are suggesting is a massive change, right? 
Different OS. Different hardware platform (reformat all your drives?)
Different DAW (How do you access all your current work? Your past work? Your archived work?)
Installing PC versions of your essential plugins and apps (if they dont exist, finding equivalents)
That all sounds like a huge time cost to me.

But whatever works for you, is what works for you, 
Kudos to you for making such a major change. 
But "value" takes many forms.


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## Al Maurice (Jan 27, 2022)

Macs have always been a great platform for creatives. I like their straightforward approach as a desktop environment. As long as you recognise that Apple sets the tone for their devices, then all is well.

On the other hand expanding or upgrading an Apple machine leaves your options quite limited. Hence their pricing structure.

PCs on the other hand is much more open environment, which leaves far more options for customizability. Making them in the long term better value for many.


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## Simon Ravn (Jan 27, 2022)

I would wait it out at least until Apple's spring event and see what comes out. Rumor has long been around that there will be both a new Mac Pro (which will still cost a fortune, I reckon) and a smaller version. Also new, faster version(s) of the Mac mini will most likely appear this year. If you can wait I would do that. I went the Hackintosh route about a year ago, but you need to be pretty tech savvy OR get someone to build one for you.


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## Nimrod7 (Jan 27, 2022)

glyster said:


> The new iMacs are not user upgradable. For that reason I recently switched to Windows with Cubase from Logic Pro X on iMac. I'd recommend PC, a lot more value for your money.


I have PCs in the studio, for CG work.
I never upgraded a PC, by the time you need to do it, the hardware is outdated. Motherboards are compatible with 1-2 generations of processors, and different clock speeds, RAM has to match the motherboard (and is also limited to 128GB, you have to go server tech to go beyond that), PCI is getting upgraded every couple of year, causing NvMEs and other PCI hardware to underperform.

If you "upgrade" a machine every 4-5 years, you are better off building another one for the next 4-5 years.
Reparability is another issue, and I am with you on that. Something breaks you can fix it or replace it.

Macs lifespan is 6-8 years. Many people out there have the trashcan from 2013 and still works just fine. They also retain their value quite well, so you sell and buy another one (= upgrade).


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## glyster (Jan 27, 2022)

timprebble said:


> Just out of interest, how much $ do you think you saved?
> Because to me that isn't an upgrade. What you are suggesting is a massive change, right?
> Different OS. Different hardware platform (reformat all your drives?)
> Different DAW (How do you access all your current work? Your past work? Your archived work?)
> ...


That's actually a very good point. I should have provided some context. I'm a hobbyist, and actually started to play with music a bit more recently. I started on iMac, had about 1 TB of sample library (Kontakt + some others). I ran out of space on my iMac 27 2015, which I self upgraded RAM to 24 GB and 1 TB SSD. For that HD upgrade, I had to remove the LCD screen and glue it back together. That's Apple's philosophy of user friendly.

The sample libraries were easy to transfer to the PC over ethernet. I got a great deal on Cubase 11 Pro. It also appears all the pros I follow on Youtube use Cubase, so it's also a good motivation to switch.

I have 4 to 5 different computers, iMac, Macbook Pro, two tower PCs. My PCs are a bit old but they were top of the line when I bought them many years ago. I built this machine myself, probably cost around $3K in 2017. 12 cores with 64 GB RAM. I just added 3 new SSDs, 1 TB, 2TB, and 4TB (total cost ~$700), to allow future expansion for more sample libraries. If you spec out an iMac like this config at Apple.com it's going to be over $6K. A Mac Pro is going to cost even more.

I use Mac for work, my company pay for my Macbook Pro, so I don't care the cost. But for my personal use, it really doesn't make sense to buy Apple stuff, especially the high end stuff.

I should add that if you make good money off this work, then buy whatever makes you work better, extra $3K over 5 years (life span of the machine) is not a lot.


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 27, 2022)

glyster said:


> That's actually a very good point. I should have provided some context....


How did you migrate your Logic projects to Cubase? Or did you?

Thanks,
Wayne


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## glyster (Jan 27, 2022)

wayne_rowley said:


> How did you migrate your Logic projects to Cubase? Or did you?
> 
> Thanks,
> Wayne


I didn’t migrate.


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## jbuhler (Jan 27, 2022)

My 2012 MacBook Pro laptop that I still use on a regular basis for classroom teaching and has gone back and forth to me to school every day since I got it in 2012 is still going strong and is a perfectly capable machine for almost all my routine needs. My 2015 i7 iMac outfitted with 64GB of memory is still a completely capable machine that I only relegated to hosting the zoom studio because the university made me get a new computer and the i9 iMac was the best fit to my needs in fall of 2020—since with a fast graphics card it speeded up video transcoding and editing. I don't dispute that Apple could make their devices somewhat easier to upgrade by the user, especially parts like SSDs. Since they allow access to the memory, it's not clear why they couldn't do the same thing for the drive.

Besides all the migration issues —and I've been using a mac since 1986—it would cost me several thousand dollars in software to change from MacOs to PC.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 27, 2022)

Just to reiterate what others have already said, you should be in a holding pattern right now. Rumors say that we could see new iMacs and, maybe, a Mac Mini Pro as early as March. I have no idea how these things will be priced, but it seems reasonable to assume that a machine with 64GB of RAM should be less than the current 64GB Macbook Pro. I am a bit frightened to think what a machine with 128GB might cost, given the way that Apple has structured the upgrades thus far, but for samples, that's when you start thinking about VEP and slaves made out of what you already have.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 27, 2022)

glyster said:


> I should add that if you make good money off this work, then buy whatever makes you work better, extra $3K over 5 years (life span of the machine) is not a lot.


I spent $2800 on my 2013 MB Pro in 2013....paid for itself with a gig a month later. Still going strong to this day, through hundreds of projects with not a single failure. I have a 2020 iMac now, but peace of mind is priceless in my world (and it already owes me nothing). For a hobbyist, I suppose it doesn't really matter. In the big scheme of things, you aren't really saving much $$ with a PC when you compare specs and reliability.


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## benwiggy (Jan 27, 2022)

I'd would recommend buying a Mac Mini with a separate display. New Minis are rumoured to be released this spring, with the M1 Pro/Max CPU.


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## Snoobydoobydoo (Jan 27, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> I'd would recommend buying a Mac Mini with a separate display. New Minis are rumoured to be released this spring, with the M1 Pro/Max CPU.


For the sheer power, good thing. But using usb hubs can be exhausting.


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## rogierhofboer (Jan 27, 2022)

I can recommend this video by @A.Dern 
But if you want to use Logic, Mac is your only option ofcourse… 
Combining the two platforms via Vienna Ensemble Pro is also a very valid option…


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## proggermusic (Jan 27, 2022)

benwiggy said:


> I'd would recommend buying a Mac Mini with a separate display. New Minis are rumoured to be released this spring, with the M1 Pro/Max CPU.


I'm currently on a late-2012 iMac (21" with maxed out RAM) and I still love this damn thing, best computer I've ever owned. I've done tons of professional work with it over the last decade, but it's starting to show its age with some of my resource-hog-VIs (Spectrasonics and Spitfire...) so I'm looking forward to upgrading later this year... but I have to hold out for the new Apple Silicon iMacs being able to take more RAM. 16GB ain't gonna cut it. When I bought mine in 2013, the iMac was the best bang for the buck out there, Apple-wise, and I think it will be again when the 24" can take a proper amount of memory. I'm hoping the spring announcements will include that!


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## glyster (Jan 27, 2022)

I don’t want to sound like I am anti-Apple. I like to use their product as well, as long as the money is not coming out of my pocket . Also if there are good business advantage of using Mac, I don’t mind pay extra.

As a person work in the tech industry, I also want to give a more objective view of Apple’s philosophy. Apple is foremost a business. They are very good at making money. Good product design is only one part of it. Due to their scale, they can negotiate like no one else on their supply chain. All the parts that make up the their products, they get absolutely the lowest price. They also have the resource to analyze and request parts customization that reduce cost further that smaller companies could not dream of. Apple design a product for a target use case or market. Whatever the hardware spec accomplish that is what they will use and buy the parts for that spec. No more, no less. Apple never over pays . They do have very good QC.

So what does that mean for end users? Most people will be fairly happy with Apple products. Because Apple knows what the use cases are and they designed for them. Their high end stuff are designed for pros, who make money off these hardware, so Apple charge more.

I’m a tech person. I know PC, Mac, and Linux. I can build machines myself by choosing top of the line parts (even better than Apple’s). At the high end there is no question that I can build a machine with with off the shelf parts that’s better than the most powerful Mac Pro at lower price. But it’s because I have the domain knowledge.


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## Paulogic (Jan 27, 2022)

With some luck you can buy the 27" imac I9 at lower price because almost EOL.
Buy the version with smallest memory and SSD, and use thirdparty Ram and external
SSD's or even NVME drives. Will be much cheaper than original Mem and/or SSD's.

Going to Windows, is a possibility, but then you're on another platform and migration
may even cost more.


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## paulmatthew (Jan 27, 2022)

glyster said:


> The new iMacs are not user upgradable. For that reason I recently switched to Windows with Cubase from Logic Pro X on iMac. I'd recommend PC, a lot more value for your money.


Having to go to PC for my next computer as well. I will not buy another mac unless the user can upgrade their own ram. I refuse to pay extra for their crazy RAM prices.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 27, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> I will not buy another mac unless the user can upgrade their own ram. I refuse to pay extra for their crazy RAM prices.


You can with the 2020 iMac, I installed 128GB for $400.


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## MoSound (Jan 27, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> 27” iMacs work well and are user upgradable to 128GB in both i7 and i9 configurations. I have the i9. The Intel iMacs are likely now at EOL and will be replaced by some form of the new architecture soon. I’d recommend waiting if you can. If you can’t both the i7 and i9 iMacs are very capable machines. Buy with minimum memory and upgrade RAM with third party.


Thank you for your reply, there's a couple things I'm confused about. I've heard some IMACs are Ram upgradeable and some are not. Does anyone know the specifics on this as far as which is which? Which year(s) and models are upgradeable? What does i7 and I9 configurations mean? And also EOL?


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## MoSound (Jan 27, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> You can with the 2020 iMac, I installed 128GB for $400.


Some Imac's are Ram upgradable and some are not. Do you happen to know which models are?


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## jbuhler (Jan 27, 2022)

MoSound said:


> Thank you for your reply, there's a couple things I'm confused about. I've heard some IMACs are Ram upgradeable and some are not. Does anyone know the specifics on this as far as which is which? Which year(s) and models are upgradeable? What does i7 and I9 configurations mean? And also EOL?


The high end 27" iMacs have been user upgradable for a long time, but just the RAM. I believe all current i7 and i9 27" models are upgradable to 128GB. Hopefully someone will chime in with confirmation or correction. The new Silicon iMacs that will be released soon almost certainly will not have upgradable RAM or anything else. 

EOL=End of Life. Apple is moving from Intel chips to their own chips, so soon there will no longer be Intel iMacs.


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## Nimrod7 (Jan 27, 2022)

paulmatthew said:


> I will not buy another mac unless the user can upgrade their own ram. I refuse to pay extra for their crazy RAM prices.


I don't think we will ever see upgradable memory again. What they did it's probably a huge leap forward in terms of performance.

The benefits of unified memory, and the huge 408GB/s bandwidth well worth the price. In some applications the bottleneck is not the CPU, it's how data can be moved between the CPU, GPU, Memory and Storage.

While the situation is not ideal in our pocket, I can see the advantages of the approach, which for once was not created with financial gain in mind, but with performance. I don't think the cost is absurd, those things needs specialised processes to get manufactured and integrated on the device (considering that they are giving us options), they are not off the shelf products.


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## rnb_2 (Jan 27, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> The high end 27" iMacs have been user upgradable for a long time, but just the RAM. I believe all current i7 and i9 27" models are upgradable to 128GB. Hopefully someone will chime in with confirmation or correction. The new Silicon iMacs that will be released soon almost certainly will not have upgradable RAM or anything else.
> 
> EOL=End of Life. Apple is moving from Intel chips to their own chips, so soon there will no longer be Intel iMacs.


All 27" iMacs can have the RAM upgraded - the i5 models are actually pretty reasonable stop-gap options these days, especially if you can find a good deal on one. Both i5 27" iMacs are faster than the i7 2018 Mac mini that several composers use (and have a far better GPU), but the 256GB SSD in the base 3.1GHz config pretty much rules it out (I wouldn't go smaller than 500GB for a system drive). The 3.3GHz i5 would be a good base for a machine to last a couple years until things settle down on the Apple Silicon front.

Apple currently has a ton of refurb 2020 27" iMacs available - 5 pages of them! I tried to link to the just the 2020 models with 512GB+ SSDs, but it didn't work (just ended up on a page with all refurb Macs) - make sure you're looking at only the 2020 model (the 2019 i5s don't have hyper threading, so aren't as good a deal for the money) and exclude the 256GB storage models.


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## MoSound (Jan 27, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> The high end 27" iMacs have been user upgradable for a long time, but just the RAM. I believe all current i7 and i9 27" models are upgradable to 128GB. Hopefully someone will chime in with confirmation or correction. The new Silicon iMacs that will be released soon almost certainly will not have upgradable RAM or anything else.
> 
> EOL=End of Life. Apple is moving from Intel chips to their own chips, so soon there will no longer be Intel iMacs.





jbuhler said:


> so soon there will no longer be Intel iMacs.


Oh Wow! Here we go again! We all went through this with our pre-Intel Macs! All the software makers then make their new stuff for the new Mac chips and we have to upgrade our machine again! So it may not even be a good idea to get a new(er) Mac since the Intel chip will soon be obsolete. Krazy!
Thank you so much for your info, it's very helpful.


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## jbuhler (Jan 27, 2022)

MoSound said:


> Oh Wow! Here we go again! We all went through this with our pre-Intel Macs! All the software makers then make their new stuff for the new Mac chips and we have to upgrade our machine again! So it may not even be a good idea to get a new(er) Mac since the Intel chip will soon be obsolete. Krazy!
> Thank you so much for your info, it's very helpful.


I think most are pretty excited about these new machines. 

The intel machines are most capable machines and can be used as sample servers if we decide the improvements of the new machines are too much to pass up.


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## MoSound (Jan 27, 2022)

timprebble said:


> In the past I always used a MacPro Tower and Avid io, but a few years back switched to a 27" iMac with 64GB RAM + MOTU AVB io (16a + 1248 + 828x2) and it's been excellent!! I ordered my iMac with basic 8GB RAM and did upgrades to 64GB myself via OWC - they have handy videos showing how to do it:
> https://eshop.macsales.com
> 
> I also got a VESA mount specifically for my iMac (website I got mine from has disappeared but I'd imagine they are available) so I float my iMac above my desk using a monitor arm. I also run a second monitor/large TV using one of the Thunderbolt outputs. (Other Thunderbolt goes to MOTU io and then to a couple of RAIDs)


Nice! Thanks for the reply. What year is your 27" IMac? Some people here have said the 2020 is the best and last one that you can upgrade the RAM. Except, apparently now, The Intel chip will soon be obsolete so, who knows?


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## MoSound (Jan 27, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> My 2012 MacBook Pro laptop that I still use on a regular basis for classroom teaching and has gone back and forth to me to school every day since I got it in 2012 is still going strong and is a perfectly capable machine for almost all my routine needs. My 2015 i7 iMac outfitted with 64GB of memory is still a completely capable machine that I only relegated to hosting the zoom studio because the university made me get a new computer and the i9 iMac was the best fit to my needs in fall of 2020—since with a fast graphics card it speeded up video transcoding and editing. I don't dispute that Apple could make their devices somewhat easier to upgrade by the user, especially parts like SSDs. Since they allow access to the memory, it's not clear why they couldn't do the same thing for the drive.
> 
> Besides all the migration issues —and I've been using a mac since 1986—it would cost me several thousand dollars in software to change from MacOs to PC.


Yes, thanks for your reply. My 2012 Mac Pro Tower still runs great. It's just that High Sierra is the highest I can go and a lot of the new software is requiring a higher OS. This is the only reason I was thinking of getting a new computer but, now I've learned that the Intel chip will soon be obsolete so that will cause another upgrade to be compatible with new software. So who knows which direction to go?


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## MoSound (Jan 27, 2022)

Jett Hitt said:


> that's when you start thinking about VEP and slaves made out of what you already have.


Thanks for your reply. What is VEP?


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## jbuhler (Jan 27, 2022)

MoSound said:


> Yes, thanks for your reply. My 2012 Mac Pro Tower still runs great. It's just that High Sierra is the highest I can go and a lot of the new software is requiring a higher OS. This is the only reason I was thinking of getting a new computer but, now I've learned that the Intel chip will soon be obsolete so that will cause another upgrade to be compatible with new software. So who knows which direction to go?


Yeah, if you can I’d definitely wait till Apple’s next announce to and see what they have in store. 

I believe my 2012 laptop can run Big Sur (it’s currently on Mojave) and my 2015 iMac (also on Mojave) can run Monterey. So I’m guessing the 2020 iMac (currently on Catalina) has at least five more systems to go. Other software no longer supporting older macs seems to be a bigger worry and if that happens they can be converted to windows sample servers.


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## timprebble (Jan 27, 2022)

glyster said:


> I’m a tech person. I know PC, Mac, and Linux. I can build machines myself by choosing top of the line parts (even better than Apple’s). At the high end there is no question that I can build a machine with with off the shelf parts that’s better than the most powerful Mac Pro at lower price. But it’s because I have the domain knowledge.


But it's not "just" because you have "domain knowledge". It's also because as a hobbyist with no work deadlines, you are presumably happy to commit all the time involved. AND can ignore the essential need every working pro has to migrate everything, including work in progress and all of their professional work history. Not criticizing your choice for you, but it is simply not viable for me.




MoSound said:


> Nice! Thanks for the reply. What year is your 27" IMac? Some people here have said the 2020 is the best and last one that you can upgrade the RAM. Except, apparently now, The Intel chip will soon be obsolete so, who knows?



Mine is actually late 2015 - 4Ghz Quad core i7. I did my upgrade leading up to a major film score project.

The intel chips being EOL and replaced by M1 is not recent news, it started in Nov 2020.
Useful description etc:








Apple M1 Chip: Everything You Need to Know


Apple in November 2020 released the first Macs with an Arm-based M1 chip, debuting 2020 13-inch MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, and Mac mini models. In...




www.macrumors.com





I'll definitely upgrade to a new M1 iMac, but timing such upgrades is always difficult. I accidentally upgraded to Big Sur way before I should have (ie before MOTU drivers were ready)

Patience is a virtue!


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## Nachivnik (Jan 27, 2022)

I am still entertaining the idea of getting a 2020 iMac mainly due to RAM. If a 2020 iMac has enough CPU power for you, the RAM per dollar value is higher than with a Mac where you have to buy Apple upgrade prices. But, it's not just RAM that you have to upgrade if the new MacBook Pro's are an indication of the future. You have buy CPU and GPU power you may not need. If a 9032 (vs M1Max 12244) Geekbench score takes care of your CPU needs, a 2020 iMac will get you more RAM for less.

There is also the issue of avoiding the teething pains of the Apple Silicon transition. That has long been the position of Pro Tools studios - to wait, watch, and see.

But, mostly it is the RAM issue. We won't be able to pick up a 2022 Apple Silicon iMac with 128GB RAM for less than $4500, likely more. If RAM matters to you, and for this kind of work, it does, a new iMac is going to be an expensive venture. Apple Silicon is a CPU boost. The speed benefits from integrated chipsets and fast drives remain no substitute for an adequate amount of RAM for your use case. One day that will be, but we are not there yet.


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## Jett Hitt (Jan 27, 2022)

MoSound said:


> Thanks for your reply. What is VEP?


Vienna Ensemble Pro 7. It allows you to host samples on multiple computers.


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## rnb_2 (Jan 27, 2022)

MoSound said:


> Oh Wow! Here we go again! We all went through this with our pre-Intel Macs! All the software makers then make their new stuff for the new Mac chips and we have to upgrade our machine again! So it may not even be a good idea to get a new(er) Mac since the Intel chip will soon be obsolete. Krazy!
> Thank you so much for your info, it's very helpful.


The first Apple Silicon chip, the M1, was released in three machines - Mac mini, 13" MacBook Pro, and MacBook Air - in November, 2020. In April of 2021, the 24" iMac was released with the M1. The M1 is an 8-core chip, with 4 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores, and overall system speed is right between the 12-core 2013 Mac Pro and the 8-core iMac Pro (also, faster than any Intel MacBook Pro or Mac mini). The M1, however, is limited to 16GB of RAM and 2TB of storage.

In October, the first M1 Pro/M1 Max machines were announced, the 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros. The M1 Pro and Max are both 10-core chips - 8 performance cores, 2 efficiency cores - with the Pro having up to 16 GPU cores and 16-32GB of RAM, and the Max having up to 32 GPU cores and 32-64GB of RAM. There are also two lower M1 Pro options on the 14-inch, one with 6 performance cores and 14 GPU cores, and another with 10 CPU cores and 14 GPU cores (these are what is referred to as "binned" chips, where some cores didn't pass final inspection and have been turned off). The 6 performance/2 efficiency M1 Pro benchmarks faster than any non-Pro iMac (including the 10-core i9 2020 config), and the 8 performance/2 efficiency M1 Pro/Max benchmarks faster than any iMac Pro except the 18-core config, and faster than the 8- and 12-core 2019 Mac Pro.

The next step in the switchover will probably be a high end Mac mini this Spring with M1 Pro and possibly M1 Max, followed (possibly in September, possibly sooner) by the 27" iMac replacement (possibly called the iMac Pro, at least in some configurations) with M1 Pro and Max and, a recent rumor claims, possibly something with a couple extra performance cores. The final step will be the new Mac Pro, which will likely feature either 2 or 4 M1 Max packages. Two M1 Max chips would be at least as fast as any 2019 Mac Pro (likely faster), with the 4-chip configuration probably being at least twice as fast as any Intel Mac ever made.

Sometime this year, we are also likely to see the replacement for the MacBook Air, with a very different design and the first appearance of the M2 processor. And the cycle will start over from there...


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 27, 2022)

MoSound said:


> Nice! Thanks for the reply. What year is your 27" IMac? Some people here have said the 2020 is the best and last one that you can upgrade the RAM. Except, apparently now, The Intel chip will soon be obsolete so, who knows?


It will be several years before the 2020 Intel iMacs are no longer supported, I wouldn’t be concerned about that at all.


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 27, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> It will be several years before the 2020 Intel iMacs are no longer supported, I wouldn’t be concerned about that at all.


Supported by Apple, yes. 

However third-party software and hardware producers may well decide to stop supporting Intel and support AS only far sooner than Apple.

Otherwise they need to maintain Intel Mac systems to develop and test the universal binaries, adding time and expense to their process.

I suspect once the last Intel Mac is withdrawn from the market there’ll be no more than 3 years of Intel Mac support from third-party software and hardware vendors (I.e. they will drop it at the latest when their Intel Macs are out of warranty/Apple care). Some won’t even give us that - they’ll likely drop it in the next release.

Wayne


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## MoSound (Jan 28, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> The first Apple Silicon chip, the M1, was released in three machines - Mac mini, 13" MacBook Pro, and MacBook Air - in November, 2020. In April of 2021, the 24" iMac was released with the M1. The M1 is an 8-core chip, with 4 performance cores and 4 efficiency cores, and overall system speed is right between the 12-core 2013 Mac Pro and the 8-core iMac Pro (also, faster than any Intel MacBook Pro or Mac mini). The M1, however, is limited to 16GB of RAM and 2TB of storage.
> 
> In October, the first M1 Pro/M1 Max machines were announced, the 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros. The M1 Pro and Max are both 10-core chips - 8 performance cores, 2 efficiency cores - with the Pro having up to 16 GPU cores and 16-32GB of RAM, and the Max having up to 32 GPU cores and 32-64GB of RAM. There are also two lower M1 Pro options on the 14-inch, one with 6 performance cores and 14 GPU cores, and another with 10 CPU cores and 14 GPU cores (these are what is referred to as "binned" chips, where some cores didn't pass final inspection and have been turned off). The 6 performance/2 efficiency M1 Pro benchmarks faster than any non-Pro iMac (including the 10-core i9 2020 config), and the 8 performance/2 efficiency M1 Pro/Max benchmarks faster than any iMac Pro except the 18-core config, and faster than the 8- and 12-core 2019 Mac Pro.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's a whole lot of info that I need to get up to speed with. It sounds like I may be better off waiting for a while since all this new stuff is coming out. Thanks so much for all the info...


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## MoSound (Jan 28, 2022)

wayne_rowley said:


> Supported by Apple, yes.
> 
> However third-party software and hardware producers may well decide to stop supporting Intel and support AS only far sooner than Apple.
> 
> ...


Well hopefully, when Intel is obsolete, the software companies will honor our current investments and we can just upgrade without breaking the bank.


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 28, 2022)

MoSound said:


> Well hopefully, when Intel is obsolete, the software companies will honor our current investments and we can just upgrade without breaking the bank.


Hopefully they will.

The problem is though that you can buy a 2020 iMac today and it's a great machine! It could last you many years as most Apple computers do. 

But you may find that the latest version of your DAW, plugins, interface drivers etc. become AS only in 2-3 years, perhaps less.


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## MoSound (Jan 28, 2022)

wayne_rowley said:


> But you may find that the latest version of your DAW, plugins, interface drivers etc. become AS only in 2-3 years, perhaps less.


Yes exactly... It may be more economical to stay with my old system for a few more years until DAW, plugins, and interface drivers all become compatible with the new Apple chip.


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## Paulogic (Jan 28, 2022)

That may also be a very good idea.

Some results here :

Client bought a brand new 24 inch iMac M1, 8/8, with 512 GB SSD and migrated, as a test,
his 27" i9 64 GB machine to this new iMac.
He is a power graphics user (photoshop/3D and so on) and we did a speed test with rendering :
M1 beats the I9 and finished seconds earlier with a 4K render of a building design.
I was amazed and didn't thing this would be the case... I'll ask him if he can do it again and
take note of the exact time sets.


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## Nimrod7 (Jan 28, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> Sometime this year, we are also likely to see the replacement for the MacBook Air, with a very different design and the first appearance of the M2 processor.


I was talking to an Apple Engineer today, he brought up that he was working on the 2022 M1 releases. I couldn't (legally) ask for more, but he didn't said M2. 

I guess they might release an iMac and a mini early 22 probably with the new pro chips and my assumption is late in the year a new Mac Pro with M2 or whatever.


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## MoSound (Jan 28, 2022)

Paulogic said:


> That may also be a very good idea.
> 
> Some results here :
> 
> ...


This is good to know.. Thank you. From what most people are saying here, I don't think investing in any type of Intel computer (new or old) would be a good idea. Of course it will last but, sooner than later we won't be able to get updated software. Plus, I would think that the value of a used Intel computer will be dropping fast due to the new Apple chip.


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## Jeremy Spencer (Jan 28, 2022)

MoSound said:


> This is good to know.. Thank you. From what most people are saying here, I don't think investing in any type of Intel computer (new or old) would be a good idea. Of course it will last but, sooner than later we won't be able to get updated software. Plus, I would think that the value of a used Intel computer will be dropping fast due to the new Apple chip.


Just my 2 cents, but I think you're looking too much into this. Keep in mind, there are tens of thousands of people using recent Intel Macs. It's still going to be a couple of years before Apple has switched over its entire lineup over to Silicon; my guess is 5-8 years before support by Apple and third party developers becomes a concern. If you can wait, then by all means. But don't let that stand in the way of moving along and getting creative. There's always something better around the corner, no matter what route you take in the computer world.


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## MoSound (Jan 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Just my 2 cents, but I think you're looking too much into this. Keep in mind, there are ten of thousands of people using recent Intel Macs. It's still going to be a couple of years before Apple has switched over its entire lineup over to Silicon. If you can wait, then by all means. But don't let that stand in the way of moving along and getting creative. There's always something better around the corner, no mater what route you take in the computer world.


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## rnb_2 (Jan 28, 2022)

Jeremy Spencer said:


> Just my 2 cents, but I think you're looking too much into this. Keep in mind, there are tens of thousands of people using recent Intel Macs. It's still going to be a couple of years before Apple has switched over its entire lineup over to Silicon; my guess is 5-8 years before support by Apple and third party developers becomes a concern. If you can wait, then by all means. But don't let that stand in the way of moving along and getting creative. There's always something better around the corner, no matter what route you take in the computer world.


Great advice, and everybody will have their own priorities that will tip them one way or the other. I can certainly see a case for waiting, but there are users for whom a 2020 iMac makes the most sense right now. I still think a refurb 2020 i5 3.3Ghz iMac would be a good 2-year solution for anyone who can't comfortably wait for the rest of 2022 to play out.

That said, the Apple Silicon transition will be done by the end of 2022. I would expect the M1-based Mac Pro to be announced sometime between WWDC in June and October, probably shipping late December (as has been typical with Apple's pro desktops over the last few years). There is a likelihood that the 2019 Mac Pro soldiers on for a while - there are rumors that it may get revised with new Xeons sometime this year - but this will be solely to provide a solution for users that need >256GB of RAM, or are tied to an existing Intel software stack that needs more time to transition. Everything else will be Apple Silicon by the end of this year.


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## jbuhler (Jan 28, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> Great advice, and everybody will have their own priorities that will tip them one way or the other. I can certainly see a case for waiting, but there are users for whom a 2020 iMac makes the most sense right now. I still think a refurb 2020 i5 3.3Ghz iMac would be a good 2-year solution for anyone who can't comfortably wait for the rest of 2022 to play out.
> 
> That said, the Apple Silicon transition will be done by the end of 2022. I would expect the M1-based Mac Pro to be announced sometime between WWDC in June and October, probably shipping late December (as has been typical with Apple's pro desktops over the last few years). There is a likelihood that the 2019 Mac Pro soldiers on for a while - there are rumors that it may get revised with new Xeons sometime this year - but this will be solely to provide a solution for users that need >256GB of RAM, or are tied to an existing Intel software stack that needs more time to transition. Everything else will be Apple Silicon by the end of this year.


This is interesting. What is the group of Mac Pro users ("users that need >256GB of RAM, or are tied to an existing Intel software stack that needs more time to transition") who are sufficiently important to Apple that they are willing to serve them in this fashion? Apple rarely shows that kind of deference.


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## rnb_2 (Jan 28, 2022)

jbuhler said:


> This is interesting. What is the group of Mac Pro users ("users that need >256GB of RAM, or are tied to an existing Intel software stack that needs more time to transition") who are sufficiently important to Apple that they are willing to serve them in this fashion? Apple rarely shows that kind of deference.


I'm just going off of the interpretations of different rumors that are swirling around. There are rumors of a "large" and "small" Mac Pro, which suggests that the current form factor isn't going away, and the rumors of the 2019 Mac Pro getting a Xeon update keep circulating, as well.

The basis for everything, I think, is that Apple made a point of acceding to pro users' desires in creating the 2019 Mac Pro, particularly in going back to the tower configuration with internal expansion options, and doesn't want to be seen taking all of that away again so soon. At this point, it seems very unlikely that the Apple Silicon Mac Pro is going to have PCI slots, given the architecture of the entire platform, so I should probably have added "users with workflows dependent on specific PCI expansion cards" to that list. They don't want a replay of 2013, when Thunderbolt wasn't able to replace internal expansion well enough for some (though the 2013 Mac Pro had other issues that were more responsible for its demise - ie, the "thermal corner").


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## khollister (Jan 29, 2022)

I think if you are considering an Intel iMac or Mac Pro today and have an expectation of 3-5 years of full support from Apple and 3rd party vendors you are good to go.

If you buy Intel today and have expectations of 10 years of useful life, you should expect to be orphaned somewhere in the 5-10 year timeframe as far as software updates (especially Apple) and HW support. In particular, Logic and FCP will probably not be updated for Intel (or will require MacOS versions not offered on Intel eventually) at some point before 10 years elapses.


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## rnb_2 (Jan 29, 2022)

OWC has a ton of Apple Refurbished 27" iMacs in stock, all configs available - you can get a 10-core i9 with 128GB of RAM and 2TB SSD for $3199. The only drawback is that certain CTO options aren't available, so the i5 configs are only available with the base storage, the upgraded GPUs are only available with the high end configs. RAM is completely configurable, since OWC can install their own RAM.


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## MoSound (Jan 29, 2022)

rnb_2 said:


> OWC has a ton of Apple Refurbished 27" iMacs in stock, all configs available - you can get a 10-core i9 with 128GB of RAM and 2TB SSD for $3199. The only drawback is that certain CTO options aren't available, so the i5 configs are only available with the base storage, the upgraded GPUs are only available with the high end configs. RAM is completely configurable, since OWC can install their own RAM.


Nice! Thank you for the info! That sounds like a good deal.


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## Nachivnik (Jan 29, 2022)

Yeah, if you wait for a new iMac, you won't see it for months, during which many teething issues will be mitigated. However, if you don't get enough RAM, you won't be keeping it longer than five years (because you will buy a new machine sooner to get the necessary amount of RAM), negating the longevity benefit of buying newer. Plus, buying a new (yet to be announced) iMac, you get every speed benefit of the new architecture.

You buy a 2020 iMac now, you get a slightly slower machine (about 75% of the CPU power of a 16" MacBook Pro M1 Max by Geekbench's numbers), but you can spec up the RAM to 128GB. But, it will become obsolete faster. Plus, buying a 2020 iMac, you get the benefit of full compatibility now. That will taper over the years, but how many years, no one knows. I personally think Intel Macs will receive support for many years by 3rd party software vendors. There are too many of them out there to cut off support too soon. I believe Apple will hold to their practices and stop support on the same timeline they have been following the past number of years. They could certainly prove me wrong.

Longevity-wise, the perfect solution is to buy a top-of-the-line new iMac with 128GB RAM whatever the cost. But, we still don't know when that will be available. If such an iMac is announced at a Spring event, from now until receipt could be 3-4 months. The wait times for built-to-order MacBook Pros are pretty long. But, it will probably be really awesome. Whenever it arrives.


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## MoSound (Jan 30, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> Yeah, if you wait for a new iMac, you won't see it for months, during which many teething issues will be mitigated. However, if you don't get enough RAM, you won't be keeping it longer than five years (because you will buy a new machine sooner to get the necessary amount of RAM), negating the longevity benefit of buying newer. Plus, buying a new (yet to be announced) iMac, you get every speed benefit of the new architecture.
> 
> You buy a 2020 iMac now, you get a slightly slower machine (about 75% of the CPU power of a 16" MacBook Pro M1 Max by Geekbench's numbers), but you can spec up the RAM to 128GB. But, it will become obsolete faster. Plus, buying a 2020 iMac, you get the benefit of full compatibility now. That will taper over the years, but how many years, no one knows. I personally think Intel Macs will receive support for many years by 3rd party software vendors. There are too many of them out there to cut off support too soon. I believe Apple will hold to their practices and stop support on the same timeline they have been following the past number of years. They could certainly prove me wrong.
> 
> Longevity-wise, the perfect solution is to buy a top-of-the-line new iMac with 128GB RAM whatever the cost. But, we still don't know when that will be available. If such an iMac is announced at a Spring event, from now until receipt could be 3-4 months. The wait times for built-to-order MacBook Pros are pretty long. But, it will probably be really awesome. Whenever it arrives.


Thanks so much for the info! A whole lot to consider here not knowing how long third-party software vendors will continue support for the Intel machines. It comes down to profit margins due to the demand curve. I can't imagine everybody running out and buying a new iMac as soon as they arrive. So It will be a slow changeover but, Apple will force it with OS incompatibilities sooner than we are ready. That's what they do! And, not knowing when the new IMAC's will actually be here. So much to consider... And of course the price! Considering how much they're asking for the current Mac Pro Tower, I'm sure the new AS MAC's will be a fortune!


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 30, 2022)

MoSound said:


> Thanks so much for the info! A whole lot to consider here not knowing how long third-party software vendors will continue support for the Intel machines. It comes down to profit margins due to the demand curve. I can't imagine everybody running out and buying a new iMac as soon as they arrive. So It will be a slow changeover but, Apple will force it with OS incompatibilities sooner than we are ready. That's what they do! And, not knowing when the new IMAC's will actually be here. So much to consider... And of course the price! Considering how much they're asking for the current Mac Pro Tower, I'm sure the new AS MAC's will be a fortune!


Apple will support Intel Macs for as long as they need to - and it wouldn't surprise me if that's 5 years after the last Intel Mac is replaced. That will likely include both OS updates and also updates to Apple programs such as Logic. 

As for third-parties, that will depend on numerous factors - and we need to remember that in the grand scheme of things nearly all creators of music software and hardware are *small* development shops!

- How much of their userbase are still using Intel Macs. This will start dropping as soon as Intel Macs go away and will drop year-on-year.

- The availability of supported Intel Macs for them to develop and test on. Expect 3 years after the last Intel Mac goes. Remember most companies will replace IT kit regularly - quite often after 3 years tops and/or as soon as it is out of warranty. 

It comes down to the cost of development/support vs. the revenue from sales on the platform. From a software developer's perspective - the less platforms and variants that need the supporting the better!
Yes, I work in IT and software development 

If it helps here's where I am in all this: 

I have a four year old 2018 Mac mini (i5, 32GB RAM). For the most part it works well, though I have pushed it to the limits a few times in the last year. It has a few annoyances though which appear to be getting worse - frequent bluetooth mouse disconnects and a screen that blacks out for a few seconds at irregular intervals (it's the Mac - not the screen as that works flawlessly with my work PC).

I am therefore contemplating what is next. I don't see the point in another Intel Mac - it won't be vastly better than my Mini. I am therefore looking closely at AS Macs, however:

- Right now performance and stability seem to be variable, and will remain that way until *all* software and hardware drivers are AS native! I reckon another year at least until we have stability in this area.

- Cost. I priced out an M1 Max Macbot Pro 14 at the specs I would need and it came to over £3.5K!! Maybe take £500 off for a Mac mini without the screen. Still, ouch!

I'm going to see what the new Mini's are like and how the platform shapes up over the next few months - unless the problems with my Mini get worse and I get sick of it! 

Of course my other option is switching to PC, and I am *seriously* considering it. I specified a decent music PC for around £2.5K - a lot cheaper than the Mac. It would also be fully upgradable (extra memory, storage etc.) and I can have the SSDs in the box and not sitting attached outside. Yes, I'd lose Mac OS and probably some single core speed, but no worries about plug-in support and architecture change in the near future.

Right now it's a real option for me.

Wayne


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## Nachivnik (Jan 30, 2022)

wayne_rowley said:


> Apple will support Intel Macs for as long as they need to - and it wouldn't surprise me if that's 5 years after the last Intel Mac is replaced. That will likely include both OS updates and also updates to Apple programs such as Logic.
> 
> As for third-parties, that will depend on numerous factors - and we need to remember that in the grand scheme of things nearly all creators of music software and hardware are *small* development shops!
> 
> ...


Here is what I just did. Woot had a refurb 2020 27 inch i7 iMac with a 512GB HD for US $1600. I bought it and ordered 128GB RAM to go with it. This computer buys me a few more years before I have to confront un-upgradable Macs with higher prices versus Windows PC configurability. The price was low enough to make it worth it to me. Like all computers, it's a compromise. I wanted a larger hard drive, but I have plenty of external drive space in an OWC mini Thunderbay. I wanted an i9, but this is close enough. Geekbench for i7 of 8000 versus i9's 9000.

It seems like there are more refurb 2020 27 inch iMacs cropping up. A new iMac may be imminent. Maybe I will regret this purchase, but right now I am excited for it. I know everything will be compatible immediately. No waiting. M1 compatibility should be sorted out by the time I need a new computer.


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## wayne_rowley (Jan 30, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> Here is what I just did. Woot had a refurb 2020 27 inch i7 iMac with a 512GB HD for US $1600. I bought it and ordered 128GB RAM to go with it. This computer buys me a few more years before I have to confront un-upgradable Macs with higher prices versus Windows PC configurability. The price was low enough to make it worth it to me. Like all computers, it's a compromise. I wanted a larger hard drive, but I have plenty of external drive space in an OWC mini Thunderbay. I wanted an i9, but this is close enough. Geekbench for i7 of 8000 versus i9's 9000.
> 
> It seems like there are more refurb 2020 27 inch iMacs cropping up. A new iMac may be eminent. Maybe I will regret this purchase, but right now I am excited for it. I know everything will be compatible immediately. No waiting. M1 compatibility should be sorted out by the time I need a new computer.


The refurbs are a good option. I always buy a refurb Mac if I can. Just as good as new and cheaper.

Wayne


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## rnb_2 (Jan 30, 2022)

Nachivnik said:


> Here is what I just did. Woot had a refurb 2020 27 inch i7 iMac with a 512GB HD for US $1600. I bought it and ordered 128GB RAM to go with it. This computer buys me a few more years before I have to confront un-upgradable Macs with higher prices versus Windows PC configurability. The price was low enough to make it worth it to me. Like all computers, it's a compromise. I wanted a larger hard drive, but I have plenty of external drive space in an OWC mini Thunderbay. I wanted an i9, but this is close enough. Geekbench for i7 of 8000 versus i9's 9000.
> 
> It seems like there are more refurb 2020 27 inch iMacs cropping up. A new iMac may be eminent. Maybe I will regret this purchase, but right now I am excited for it. I know everything will be compatible immediately. No waiting. M1 compatibility should be sorted out by the time I need a new computer.


That's a great deal on the i7 - enjoy it!


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