# Battle of the woodwinds?



## Igor (Jun 28, 2012)

Any VSL Winds owners out there who've bought the new CineWinds and can report back a comparison?

I was a pretty big fan of CB. Minus EastWest's HB, which I haven't tried, I felt CB was leaps and bounds better than any previous brass libraries. But so far the demos I'm hearing of CW don't seem any better than VSL's offerings, which to my ears are still among the best fake winds out there. But then, there's the dreaded VSL oboe with its measly (and very apparent) 2 dynamic ranges.

If this does for winds what CB did for brass in my template, I'm sold. But thus far, just A-B'ing my VSL clarinet, flute and bassoon against the CW youtube video, I'm not really hearing an improvement. Both have true legato; both are very lyrical; the CW staccatos seem a bit "meatier," but then one can just toss on a dab of Albion stac winds to help add a little life to the VSL stac.
so...
Anyone?

(I was going to post this in the CW announcement area, but I'm not sure if that's really appropriate, given that's the developer's place to shine and all.)


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 28, 2012)

I'll chime in. I've used VSL pretty extensively and have been part of CineWinds since their beta phase. I believe that CineWinds just sits a lot better in a mix than VSL. Play the part, add reverb to taste, and you're set. Just like CineBrass. Granted you might not be able tell the difference right now because the VSL woodwinds are pretty much the best thing about their offerings, especially in the SE package, whilst the brass were arguably the worst. So what you're saying is totally understandable, but let me assure you, in the mix, when push comes to shove, CineWinds totally kicks ass. I'll put up a mock-up I did with CineWinds, CineBrass and CS 2, just to test out it's blend ability within a template.

http://soundcloud.com/antoniopandrade/a-whisper-and-a-yell-by


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 28, 2012)

by the way, i doubled the CS2 staccatos with the Flute and Oboe staccatos, so you can hear they blend very nicely, creating one condensed sound.


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## paulcole (Jun 29, 2012)

Whenever you get a chance to do a lot of comparisons before you spend any cash, I suggest you do it thoroughly. That is a good idea and the whole point of having a choice in the first place.
I have held back on a woodwinds purchase until I hear Berlin WW, which is apparently to be offered soon.


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## Igor (Jun 29, 2012)

antoniopandrade @ Thu Jun 28 said:


> Granted you might not be able tell the difference right now because the VSL woodwinds are pretty much the best thing about their offerings



Yeah, I have to agree about VSL. The winds really are their forte, and pretty much the only thing of theirs I use. The thing is, I still absolutely love their flute 1, Bb clarinet, Bass clarinet, Bassoon 1 and Bassoon 2. Their flute 2 and Eb clarinet are okay. But their Oboes and Eng. Hn aren't really up to par. But then, when I listened to the CW youtube demo, it appears the oboe is CW's weakest link as well (at least to my ears, from that short excerpt). And I'm not in love with the Westgate offering either.

I feel like I don't really need a new clarinet or flute; but if they could just nail the oboe, I'd be all over it.

on a side note, it's funny, but as far as pure sound and nothing else, I still think the old EWQLSO oboe exp vib patch is just about perfect. Unfortunately, it's also pretty unusable. No real legato, far too wet, and the only patch I like has a natural swell in it that's pretty hard to ignore.

Then again, there's your comment on sitting well in the mix. Whatever can make my job faster and easier is always a plus (and that's definitely been the case with CB).


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## jamwerks (Jun 29, 2012)

Reading the articulation list on HOW, I see that they've got double tonguing and flutter tongue, things that CWW don't have. Those are pretty important articulations IMO.

Also I just noticed the lack of "Quantum Leap" label on the HOW box. :shock:


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 29, 2012)

Igor, you will definitely get plenty of mileage from the Oboe in CW. The crossfade is infinitely smoother than the VSL crossfade, and the shorts are very consistent, something that always bothered me about the VSL offering. CW also has vib and non-vib articulations, and to be honest, at the price point of the library, it's a pretty well-rounded product. And yes, it's very easy to sit in a mix. The cool thing about this library is that every different mic position actually makes a big difference in how the transitions sound. The close mic legato transitions are very smooth, and can be incredibly agile. And you can always mix and match and even adjust the legato speed knob, which the settings tab in the interface includes.


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## FriFlo (Jun 29, 2012)

What nobody seems to care about: With CWW you get a very narrow excerpt from the articulations that VSL is offering (of course for a higher price). But why would I spent money on those basic articulations? Only, if I get a sound that is way ahead of what I can achieve with VSL! That was the case with LASS IMO, so I bought it. In CWW I do not here anything, which couldn't be achieved with VSL in a very similar way. BWW on the other hand has true divisi, some great articulations and a runs builder, i already know to be quite useful from OSR ... let's wait for some more demos, but I think, this will be the product I'll buy, if anything. If you don't have any good WW samples at all, it's another story ....


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## Igor (Jun 29, 2012)

I'm not really sure what "true divisi" means in a winds context. Normally one writes for solo, a.2 or a.3 (or possibly a.4 for really big groups). In that sense, writing for a tutti section is normally a very specific sound one is going for at a specific moment in a piece. Whereas, divisi makes sense (as far as cool sample library stuff) in a strings context, because the "normal" setting for orchestral string writing is for sections to play together unless otherwise specified. In other words, you normally hear the 14 violins playing together on a note, but you don't want to hear 14x3 violins if you play a triad with that patch. But with winds, I usually save the "multiple winds on one note" thing for specific places in a piece where I want something big. (For example, I rarely put more than 1 oboe on a part, unless they're playing big with the trumpets or something.)

In this sense, I actually think CW's use of solo patches that can be played with polyphonic legato (as is done with CB as well) is more appropriate.


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## Igor (Jun 29, 2012)

Also, I should point out 2 things as part of my (or, I suppose, anyone's) considerations...

1.) VSL actually already does "true divisi" through the implementation of their VI pro engine while using separate patches for each voice. (I actually prefer not to use this, instead having each "soloist" on their own channel for winds.)

2.) while it is true that, yes, VSL does have more articulations than CW... how many of those are just variations on "cresc 2 seconds, cresc 4 second, dim 2 sec," and so on... something that, with good velocity cross-fade programming in a library, makes such "articulations" unnecessary. And it appears that CW's crossfades are significantly smoother than that of VSL. (especially that damned oboe.)

3.) my guess is that CW Pro will have the trills and flutter tongues and such. just a guess, though.


* on a separate note, with regard to the VSL french oboe, I've actually tried to tweak the VI engine in terms of crossfade. What I end up with is a.) smoother transition, but b.) weird phasing issue while hearing both patches mid-transition. Probably part of the reason VSL never "fixed" this, I'd guess.


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## Casey Edwards (Jun 29, 2012)

By "True Divisi" I think he means Orchestral Tools is offering multiple players per instrument, which they are. So you'll have Flute 1, Flute 2, and Flute 3 solo patches as well as an Ensemble flute patch. 

As far as CineWinds PRO goes you guys don't have to guess, they've already spelled it out for us in threads and on their website. CW PRO will consist of different instruments sampled "with the same depth and nuance as the instruments in the CORE library." So you'll have Alto Flute, Bass Flute, English Horn, Eb Clarinet, Bass Clarinet, Contra Bassoon sampled the same way as CORE (short articulations, legato, and trills) as well as an array of ethnic winds to chose from.

At the moment, theoretically BWW + CW PRO sounds like a real winner. However, I'm dying to play those CW CORE patches anyways. That Bassoon just sounds beautiful.


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## jleckie (Jun 29, 2012)

Its going to be very hard to beat VSL woodwinds. THey are truly gorgeous.


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## rgames (Jun 29, 2012)

jleckie @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> Its going to be very hard to beat VSL woodwinds. THey are truly gorgeous.


Agreed with one VERY important distinction: crossfade dynamics and vibrato. VSL solo WW (often) sound downright bad when you try to xfade dynamics or vib/non-vib.

A second nit with VSL WW is the difficulty in doing fast runs (true for all sampled wind/string instruments, actually). I can work around that more than the xfade issue, though.

So if I were to put out a next-gen WW library those are the two capabilities I would use as the focus of my demos. I look forward to hearing those demos 

rgames


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## Daryl (Jun 30, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> A second nit with VSL WW is the difficulty in doing fast runs (true for all sampled wind/string instruments, actually). I can work around that more than the xfade issue, though.
> 
> rgames


What problem are you having with fast runs? I'm not having any issues at all. Where dose it not work for you?

D


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 30, 2012)

I am sorry but so far I have heard nothing in Cinewinds that is any better than VSL.

Yes, if you have a library with baked in room - it sits well but only in that context. With VSL, you have to work hard to make it sit but once its properly done, I dont think there is any issue with any package of VSL.

Currently, there is no library on the market except for samplemodeling that can do any better than VSL. 

In fact, I find VSL to be extremely superior in its sample engine, choice of samples and programming abilities. 

The quality of VSL samples is also of the highest order. Where we have companies like EW trying to fix 3 year old problems - having annouced Play PRO 3 years ago, VSL is simply the most advanced truly - next - generation library on the market in that sense.

Yes, there are issues in it just like other libraries but nothing major or worse than any other library. 

And I find the argument that VSL brass and other instruments sound terrible, just baseless. Most people just dont know how to use it or program. 

Thats fine. But for those who own VSL in its full form (extended stuff) will know that there is still very little after all these years that does any better than VSL.

I would still put my money on VSL woodwinds as my main library.

Best,

Tanuj.


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## re-peat (Jun 30, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> A second nit with VSL WW is the difficulty in doing fast runs (true for all sampled wind/string instruments, actually).


CineWinds' fast runs are not bad, AS LONG AS you _keep running_. But the moment you end your run, and want to stop nicely on a staccato note, it sounds completely wrong, because the staccato note is always drowned in the next-generation tails of the run which precedes it.

And it's not just with runs: everytime you go from a non-staccato articulation to a staccato note, it sounds very problematic to my ears. In a very today's generation kind of way. (See examples below.)

(It's the release samples, which are the problem of course. The Sony soundstage may be a great-sounding venue and all that, but I must say, I find its presence in this library 9 times out of 10 a lot more troublesome than beneficial. Try working with CC#11, to give another example: if you wanna have a little fade-out on a certain note — that's not too much to ask, is it? —, you also fade out the room at the same time, something which sounds completely unnatural. (It must be said though, that this issue is not specific to CineWinds. Albion, for instance, has the same problem. In fact, any library with a prominent baked-in ambience, has.)

Anyway, back to those runs. I was going to post this in the other CineWinds thread, but since we're talking about it here, I might as well post it here: *example 1*
A simple clarinet phrase, alternating between staccato notes and running motives. Notice how those running bits always obliterate the staccato note on which they end?

And another, even bigger problem I'm having, is this: if you want to assemble a tune that mixes several articulations, the result sounds always terribly disjointed because the different articulations all seem to have different energies and intensities (even at identical CC#1 levels.)
In this tune — *example 2* (which makes use of all the articulations of the Articulations-patch) — the Mod-wheel stays down at '0' all the way through. And yet, this tune falls completely apart like a dug-up corpse, because of (1) inconsistency of dynamics (2) inconsistency of timbre and (3) the 'tail'-problem which I mentioned above.

If there's a solution for any of this, I sure would love to hear about it. (And by the way, is it my sexist ears, or do these examples sound quite noisy?)

And to finish, here's a sily, little flute melody: *example 3*. Apparently, this is a 100% natural sound, with plenty of "natural, airy frequencies coming from the instrument". Word from CineSamples is that we will suprised at how much life these sounds will bring to our tracks.

_


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 30, 2012)

I should clarify that I only own the SE extended woodwinds + a couple of download instruments.

While I think that you are correct on some of your points Tanuj, and I definitely agree that given the time to mix and shape, VSL woodwinds can sound very good (there's a reason why they were pretty much the ubiquitous choice until now), I for one would much rather spend my time actually writing music and/or orchestrating than having to worry about IR's, ER's, panning and stereo imaging. I've worked with VSL SE a lot, made orchestral mock-ups of Ravel orchestrations and really squeezed the library out of all it can give. I spent a good hour trying to match the VSL oboe to the CineWinds oboe, and got close, but never really there. Although I can't say I'm an incredible mixing engineer, should I even have to be? I own the VSL suite, use their presets, tweak, trying to make the best of their package, but when I look at it, I've just spent countless hours and dollars trying to make my oboe sit in a mix, when I can just load up CW and it just works, because you know what, Dennis Sands just did that work for me. I never thought I needed a library like that until it came along. 

About your comment on the quality of VSL samples being of the highest order, I would've agreed with you, maybe 5 years ago. I think trial and error has proven the sound of baked in room sample libraries to be superior. I'm thinking Symphobia / HS vs LASS, or CB vs VSL Brass (I know that all this is subjective, but I'm assuming the vast majority of users prefer the previous to the latter in terms of sound). The fact is, the players themselves play to the room they are in. I've heard it from a trumpet player in Boston, the first time she played in Symphony Hall, it felt like she was playing another instrument, and there was no practice room that could've prepared her for that. And I stand on my statement, I still believe the VSL brass just aren't up to snuff with what CS and EWQL have put out, simply because those instruments/players NEED that room to build their sound. It's a similar case with WW, although probably not to the same extent because of the sheer loudness difference. I'm a big fan of what SM does, but to me, that's a completely different concept to traditional sampling, and not to be put in the same category.

In the end I never meant to bash VSL, but I do believe that CW has plenty of strengths over it, and particularities that make well worth it's price point in addition to or in lieu of VSL.


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 30, 2012)

Antonio,

I respect your opinions and I am glad that the other libraries are working for you! yes, of course, we must focus on writing the music itself.

Unfotunately, we are not working with real orchestras where that would be the case. It is expected of us to give the best representation of a cinematic sound over all. 

Yes, it takes some time to set-up a template but once you have done this, you no longer need to do the panning etc that you are talking about each time. This is already set as standard. 

The only time you will need to get into it is when you want to change the size/shape of the orchestra and perhaps add different rooms. This is still easily done if you know what you are doing and if your template is sort of modular.

My biggest problem with baked in reverb is that the instruments are not flexible. I got spitfire solo strings, being impressed by one particular demo only to realise, thats the only thing it can do. I actually much prefer what LASS does. My friends have it and it sounds great.

Suprisingly LASS works for everyone even though it is similar to VSL in that its very dry. 

I would not use the word 'proven' - of course, its the flavour of the month but be assured VSL is still used by some of the top guys around the world. 

Both appraoches have their merits but I still dont feel there is anything in Cinebrass, Cinewinds, Hollywood Brass, Hollywood strings that will make me move away from VSL. I did buy Orchestral tools runs - now that really fills a gap for me. But, short articulations, longs, sustains etc are all covered. 

Like I said, Samplemodeling is the only library that I felt did something really nexy-generation!

At the end of the day - None of these mock-ups done with these tools sound very realistic. A real orchestral recording will always beat the crap out of them. But of course, depends what the music is like. 

Once again, all these libraries are great for someone who is making up their mind to purchase new stuff but for someone who already has VSL extended editions, there is very little to move away from that or even buy these libraries as a second set.

LASS is the only thing that has made an impact on me and I am going to get it very soon. 

Here are two scenarios:

If you are a working composer:

1. You write the music - no budget for a mixing engineer which means you still need to spend a lot of time mixing, Albion Cinebrass, Symphobia - since all of them have different rooms and sound quality - probably more difficult to balance these.

2. You write the music - an engineer takes over completely and does the mix for you.

Now, if you are starting out and need to get stuff done yourself, in any case you have to do the basic mixing.

If you are a composer who does not have access to live msucians all the time then you will need to attain a balance within your DAW, have a template and already deliver a great sounding mix. 

So for me, in the end, VSL works much better actually exactly because of its philosophy.

and with products like Vienna Suite (awesome), SPAT and MIR - I would find it hard to believe if someone would point towards the reverb/space emulation rather than the music and programming of it if the virtual stage has been created to a decent standard in the first place.

I would say a sample library must be more capable in terms of programming than worry about baked in or dry samples. 

So, Cinewinds and all other libraries may very well be great but as a long time VSL user who has most of the extended orchestra, there is little that excites me.

These days, I do have access to live musicians from time to time and the blend of VSL and live musicians sounds great!

Best,

Tanuj.


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## Daryl (Jun 30, 2012)

vibrato @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> I am sorry but so far I have heard nothing in Cinewinds that is any better than VSL.


In agree with this. In fact I don't really like what I've heard from Cinenwinds so far. Maybe that will change when people start to learn how to use it well, but at the moment, it just sounds like more of the same, but not as good to me.

However, I'm really looking forward to seeing what Samplemodeling can do with Woodwinds. For my music their Brass is the best I've used from any company, including VSL.

D


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## mark812 (Jun 30, 2012)

vibrato @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> I am sorry but so far I have heard nothing in Cinewinds that is any better than VSL.



I agree. TBH, I don't even like other VSL stuff except for the woods. Not because I only like that bloated, "epic" sound, but because I just don't like their tone.

I bought CineBrass Core and it's an OK library..it could be much better for the money though. Short are nice, but I can't get legato horns to sound more than just ok. Slow legato, boomy sound and unfortunately, incredibly narrow dynamic range. If EastWest Brass was on Kontakt, I'd buy it without any doubts. 

VSL woods are well recorded and I think that you can achieve very good results only by using reverb, without SPAT or MIR. 

However, I won't buy CineWinds because the library has absolutely nothing that I don't have yet in my 75€ VSL SE woods. Oboe sounds better, and there are also Cor Anglais, Contrabassoon and Bass Clari included. 

I don't see why they didn't included Cor Anglais in CineWinds Core and why it isnt' a Kontakt Player library like CineBrass (actually, I understand why :wink: )..it's not a cheap library and you don't get very much imho.


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## ed buller (Jun 30, 2012)

i don't own cinewinds...yet....but i'm fairly certain i'll end getting it because I have had a lot of good experiences with their stuff....

That said VSL woodwinds 1 and 2 extended are stunning imho. You have to fiddle ( especially with the sound...needs good verb ) but the playability is outstanding . I have the modwheel assigned to velocity crossfades and it really works.

e


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 30, 2012)

Without commenting on the quality of the libraries, other than to say that they are all fine libraries, it seems to me that on one side we have the VSL and LASS libraries, which are very dry, and the CineSamples and Spitfire stuff, which have a large amount of baked in sound of really lovely rooms. I think HS and HB are smack dab in the middle and presumably HOW will be as well.

Personally, (centrist that I am, the middle is mostly where I want to be.


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## CFDG (Jun 30, 2012)

Thanx Piet, this was quite useful.

Christian


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## re-peat (Jun 30, 2012)

I’m also slightly puzzled by this sound: *example 4*

Apparently, this is an oboe recorded in a legendary venue by a master engineer. Yeah, don’t ask me. And no, I didn’t combine it with _a maracas_, although I can understand why you’d think that, no, this is just a solo oboe, accompanied by some light Spitfire (bespoke) pizzicati.
(If you wanna hear the oboe all on its own, just listen all the way through this example.)
And to anyone who says: “Yeah, but you can make that sound MUCH better if you only do this and that, and change such-and-such parameters.”, I say “Yes, I know, with a lot more effort this can be made to sound a little bit better (not much though), but I’m of the opinion I shouldn’t have to be doing any of that when working with _a next-generation library that uses the finest, most renowned players in the USA, that was recorded & mixed by a master enigineer and programmed by a team of experts._"

Seriously, there are even better sounding oboes in Kirk Hunter's libraries. And that's saying something.

_


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## jamwerks (Jun 30, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> (See examples below.).



I do hear the problems that you've talking about. To bad, because I love the the overall sound.


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## mark812 (Jun 30, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> And no, I didn’t combine it with _a maracas_



:lol:


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## jamwerks (Jun 30, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> I’m also slightly puzzled by this sound:



Is there some spot mic on in that example 4? What about with just the mains?


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## re-peat (Jun 30, 2012)

Jamwerks,

No, there's no Spot-mic in there. That's just a blend of 'Close' and 'Room', both at default settings.

_


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## Tanuj Tiku (Jun 30, 2012)

The flute and Oboe (example 4) sound horrible!

I cant believe they released the library with so many issues clearly audible. Its doesnt even seem like the case where it was a small issue and they missed it!

I sincerely hope they can fix this otherwise, its thousands of dollars worth of material..................!

Piet, thanks for sharing all this information with us!


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## jamwerks (Jun 30, 2012)

It's normal imo to have a few problems with a 1.0 release. I'm sure that there'll be an update in a few weeks for the noisy patches. The higher flute notes (in the example) would work in some contexts, but not when wanting a crisp attack.

As for the fast clarinet runs, is there a way to turn of the release samples? If so, that might help.


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## Scrianinoff (Jun 30, 2012)

Hahaha, Piet is doing his worst again.

He must be a sample lib developer's worst nightmare.

Still if I remember correctly, he was instrumental in making EW fixing up the HS Violas , by posting equally embarrassing sound snippets. So , thank you.


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## lux (Jun 30, 2012)

My impression with Piet's examples, leaving apart any opinion about the timbre, is that most of staccato passage seem to be assigned to short marcato or even truncated sustain notes.

Does it mean Piet that the lib has no staccatos to alternate to mid-long notes to have a "at least" slightly better sounding phrase?

Or are you trying to point out that with the actual patches, programming-wise, youre unable to switch from one articulation to another to alternate staccato notes to longer ones, so that you are obliged to just play with sus?

Is that a matter of release time? Is release time adjustable to make it shorter? (as I did with pratically 100% of orchestral woodwinds i've played with). 

Can release trails be turned on and off? Can it be done combined with release time in ADSR?
 
I think clarifying this would help listeners to get a better idea as the matter sounds interesting by itself.

Thanks


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## paulcole (Jun 30, 2012)

On Piets' example 4. Is that a chair creaking in there? Because if it is, that's great timing with the rest of the track.

I think there's a minuscule possibility that Cinesamples _may_ have rushed this one out because of Berlin Woodwinds and other developers woodwind library imminence. I think Cinematic (Alex Walbank) _may_ also be thinking of a woodwind library.

I very much like Cinesample Brass Pro and Hollywood winds. Cinebrass takes a bit of getting used to and forthcoming updates will address issues no doubt.

It's always a good idea to be patient if possible and wait, thus being able to make an assessment of all comers of generic sample libraries.


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## rgames (Jun 30, 2012)

Piet - that flute example sounds bad because the release sample is being played in the middle of the phrase. It would be OK (though not ideal) if it occurred only at the end. I don't know if you're using the legato there but that's the way I would program it.

Regarding the other sounds, well, I think they're consistent with what I've heard from every other library except VSL. I don't think that's news to anyone here - VSL pay a lot more attention to those types of details (which is why VSL is my go-to, less hassle). However, the other libs are certainly nice to have for some different colors.

I started with VSL and thought that was the standard for sample libraries. When I started purchasing products from other developers, I was shocked at how much "noise" I found in some of the samples (posted here about it, actually, few years ago). I've since come to realize that there's still plenty of opportunities for noisy samples, especially when they have a sound I really like.

Would be great if we could get "that" sound with VSL attention to detail, but alas. It is what it is.

rgames


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## rgames (Jun 30, 2012)

Daryl @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> rgames @ Sat Jun 30 said:
> 
> 
> > A second nit with VSL WW is the difficulty in doing fast runs (true for all sampled wind/string instruments, actually). I can work around that more than the xfade issue, though.
> ...


Note transitions never have enough "smear". So I always wind up tweaking the attacks to try to compensate. It's not just WW - I find the same issue with any sampled wind/string instrument. Too often, fast runs just don't sound good.

I guess that's why we have dedicated "runs" libraries (which I don't use because they seem cumbersome and restrictive). VSL also has their "fast legato" instruments which I've never tried, so they may address that issue.

rgames


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## re-peat (Jun 30, 2012)

You know, it’s not so much the flaws themselves that annoy me, it’s the flaws in combination with the pretentiousness and the blasé blah-blah this library was announced with, that irritates me. And CineSamples’ responses to my first batch of remarks haven’t helped either, I must say.

But, every library has these flaws, CineWinds is certainly not an exception. There are cellphones ringing in some of ProjectSAM’s samples, even people having a good time in the backround. I don’t mind. Spitfire’s bespoke libraries are littered with all sorts of noises. Some musical, others less so. I don’t mind. In all these cases, I remain silently and respectfully satisfied (like I would have been with CineSamples’ libraries too, if only …) and, if I have to, I can easily come up with solutions for each and every flaw in any library. (I often even like those type of challenges. It stimulates my inventiveness.)

What I do mind though, is developers presenting a library as if it was the first of its kind, when it is in fact as old-fashioned and imperfect as any other. And what I do mind even more is developers trying to pull wool over people's eyes and ears with all sorts of irrelevant, meaningless and, frankly, insulting nonsense (renowned players, great soundstage, master engineer, expert programmers, the choice of L.A. composers, … all that sort of infantile bull). Especially when the library turns out to be as average sounding as CineWinds is. The captured timbres are quite nice, sure, few complaints there, but other than that: poor dynamics, obnoxious release samples, lots of noise and noises, inflexible articulations, … in short: the same old thing we’ve been struggling with for years. _Previous-generation_ is a much more apt description for this product, if you ask me.

CineWinds is not a bad library, mind, but it is most definitely NOT a next-generation library: it’s a decent-sounding (not great, but reasonably good), banal sample-library, every bit as conservative and dinosaurish in concept as every other traditional sample-library. True, the scripts may be a bit cleverer than yesterday’s, but they remain very clumsy semi-solutions to create very clumsy and fragile illusions with.

VSL, to name the most obvious current competitor, is much more advanced, forward-looking, versatile and flexible in concept and architecture (even though it is much older). And if we judge things strictly soundwise: even the old XSample woodwinds have a much, much better sound than anything in CineWinds. Seriously.
And the only product that, in my opinion, really deserves the tag ‘next generation’, are the instruments from SampleModeling. The day the SampleModeling clarinet appears, I will have no further use whatsoever for the CineWinds clarinet.

_


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## Daryl (Jun 30, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Daryl @ Sat Jun 30 said:
> 
> 
> > rgames @ Sat Jun 30 said:
> ...


I don't want solo Ww runs to have smear, and in any case, once you have more than one instrument playing, the timing differences between them will give the impression of an ensemble smear. In the case of strings ensemble patches, I just use the slur patches.

D


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## Scrianinoff (Jun 30, 2012)

rgames @ Sat 30 Jun said:


> "runs" libraries (which I don't use because they seem cumbersome and restrictive)



That's what I thought before I played around with the playable runs of Orchestral String Runs (OSR 2.2) in Kontakt 5. Cumbersome: No. Restrictive, yes: not all the articulations you find in VSL, LASS and HS, but definitely workable and blendable, perhaps here it starts to become cumbersome ...... you're right  However, I cannot find better string runs than OSR.


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## jamwerks (Jun 30, 2012)

Yeah the way Orchestral Tool's have thought out the runs is really quick and usefull. And they sound like.... well.... runs.


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## Daryl (Jun 30, 2012)

askmusic @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> I am bored and annoyed by this "next-generation", "holy grail of sampling"... marketing bla-bla by any company. For me, such unsubstantiated and meaningless claims are nonserious and I get turned off immediatly, when I have to read something like this in announcements or on product pages.
> 
> Is it really necessary to do this kind of cheesy mass market advertising? I think products like sample libs, VI's or synths are good enough, to speak for themselves. There is no need to strain them with extreme claims. Another aspect for me is, that those: "L.A. Top Players", "Top Sound Engineer", "Top Studio" arguments distract from the really important things of a library, which are in my opinion: Sound philosophy, a good carrying intonation and tone (this is not just about the player, its about the recordist, who has to have a good ear for things like that), character, flexibility, programming quality and the main and most important thing: Care and Love - love, that I have to feel, when I load up a patch from a library and play even a single note.
> 
> - Sascha


I don't take any of the marketing blurb seriously. A developer is trying to sell us a product, and is obviously going to say that it's the best thing ever. Where the problems arise (and I'm not picking on Cinesamples, as this seems to be a universal issue) is when the developer thinks that they are still "one of the guys". Unfortunately that is not true; the day you try to get money out of me you are a salesman, and I will treat you exactly the same as any other salesman. Developers seem to have have a hard time understanding this, which is why we see so many hissy fits on this forum. :wink: 

D


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## jamwerks (Jun 30, 2012)

It's just marketing. It's present all over. Why would sample libraries be an exception?


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 30, 2012)

OK, I cannot believe I am about to write something that can be construed as sticking up for CineSamples (for reasons I will not go int), but my sense of fair play is offended.

Marketing is hyperbolic by nature, Everything is marketed as "new" "improved" "best ever" "revolutionary" etc. Who is going to buy something that says it is "marginally improved over others" or "not really better, just different"? Certain posters here consistently indulge in a high degree of hyperbole in what they post so it is a little ironic that they profess to be offended by marketing hype.

Is it not possible that Mike and Mike actually _believe_ that they have created the best sounding library that was recorded in the best room for it with the best engineer? I know the EW guys sincerely do when they say that. I suspect that Andrew K., Alex W. and the Spitfire guys do as well. That is why they make the choices they make.

In the end, everyone is entitled to like what they like, point out the flaws they find, in any given library etc. but to do so with a sense of outrage that somehow the developer is trying to put one over on potential users is paranoia in action and frankly just a lack of perspective.

I guarantee you that when Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds is released EW is going to advertise that it is the best sounding and most complete woodwinds library ever released. I also guarantee you, they (and probably me) will _believe_ it. I further guarantee you that there will be flaws that will be discovered, as it is going to be large and deep, as HS and HB are. 

But the idea that EW, or CineSamples, or any of the others are somehow trying to fool anyone by marketing is just silly.


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## mikebarry (Jun 30, 2012)

Piet, I am not going to be bated into exchanging blows with you. I clearly see the best spent time for my company and myself is to work on our assets and to avoid such heated discussions that often find you in the centre. 

Let me just calmly state that there is a difference between marketing truths and falsehoods: 

- SONY is indeed a premiere scoring stage
- Dennis is a premiere mixer 
- Our oboist frequents the world as an orchestral soloist in top venues with top orchestras 

None of these are clever hyperbole but rather statement of facts, just as plainly as saying 3 velocity levels or round robin. If the SONY room doesn't appeal to you it would be wise to purchase other products. 

On to my response, I corrected you when you were wrong about digital artifacts and I defended a friend/employee of mine - thats all - I would do it again. When I read these threads I see clear falsehoods - we don't have this or that when in fact it is included. 

With that I will withdraw and bid you all the fondest regards.


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## EwigWanderer (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm on the fence should I get Cinewinds or wait BWW. I own Cinebrass core and pro so I think they will blend together well, but I havent heard the softer side of CW. Issues that people seems to have worries me. For example only three velocity layers? Is it possible to play lyrical soft flute solo...

I like Cinesamples and understand the way they are marketing Cinewinds. That's fine, I'm a salesman my self so I don't take everything so literally.

It would be nice to hear if they are thinking to add more content in Cinewinds? Something like "Cinewinds core part 2"


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## Cinesamples (Jun 30, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> I’m also slightly puzzled by this sound: *example 4*
> 
> Apparently, this is an oboe recorded in a legendary venue by a master engineer. Yeah, don’t ask me. And no, I didn’t combine it with _a maracas_, although I can understand why you’d think that, no, this is just a solo oboe, accompanied by some light Spitfire (bespoke) pizzicati.
> (If you wanna hear the oboe all on its own, just listen all the way through this example.)
> ...



Hi Re-peat,
I am sorry you are so dissatisfied with our library. Can I make some observations on this example and see if this resolves it?

1) many of the notes are you playing are outside of the actual range of a real oboe. Make sure you choose notes that are playable on the instrument. We have expanded the mapping of the ranges on all the instruments to offer further flexibility (but don't orchestrate those notes for a real player! 
2) sounds like you are also using the pianissimo dynamic for very high notes. Very tricky to play up there at that dynamic on oboe. Make sure to use a higher dynamic to keep it real.
3) the overall sounds is very close-mic sounding. Like I mentioned in the last post, Dennis would rarely use so much close mic. It is intended for coloring the sound captured by the room mics. Use the spot instead if you want a close sound.

I hope that helps. In conclusion, as with all libraries, we just have to make sure we are writing things that are accurate and idiomatic to the instruments we are writing for.

Trust that we want to make libraries of the highest level of excellence, and your feedback is important, and we really do have a list here of everything you guys post. But, re-peat, can we keep the tone more positive and constructive?


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## Cinesamples (Jun 30, 2012)

I also want to add that it seems that the tone at VI has changed quite a bit in past months. We started our business right here in this community, we are wholly devoted to open dialog, and making this interactive... Creating sample libraries for composers, by composers. We are not some big corporation, just a few guys with some OCD issues, and a passion for sampling.

At one point we had a forum on our own site, and ditched it to bring the conversation back to VI, where we got our start and to support this awesome community. This is the only forum we actively support.

With CineBrass, a year ago, there was plenty of comments and feedback, and it was all extremely helpful...and done in a positive way, from both you and us. I think the library is leaps and bounds better than the initial v1.0 release (does anyone remember the first version?) 

I really hope this can change, so we can have a constructive dialog and bring you exactly what you are looking for.

Does that make sense or am I just rambling?

MP


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## re-peat (Jun 30, 2012)

mikebarry @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> - SONY is indeed a premiere scoring stage
> - Dennis is a premiere mixer
> - Our oboist frequents the world as an orchestral soloist in top venues with top orchestras.


What's any of that supposed to mean to me, Mike? Let me tell you: _nothing at all._ Am I supposed to be impressed? I certainly am not impressed by Dennis' work on this library. And the claim that the SONY soundstage is present in it, is ignorance of absurd proportions (as I've already explained in another thread). And even if your oboist had been Heinz Holliger himself, his or hers qualities certainly don't surface in CineWinds.

All I'm interested in is what's coming out Kontakt after I load CineWinds, and a lot of what I've heard thusfar is mediocre at best, and that's what matters to me. (Good thing I haven't demonstrated the clarinet trills script yet. I thought I was at the dentists' first time I tried that out.)

In fact the more you repeat these things, the more ridiculous and pathetic it all starts to sound. Because it doesn't solve anything, does it? What I'm stuck with here on my computer is NOT the SONY soundstage, not Dennis' expertise, most definitely not a top level oboist, but a so-and-so samplelibrary.

_


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## Cinesamples (Jun 30, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> OK, I cannot believe I am about to write something that can be construed as sticking up for CineSamples (for reasons I will not go int), but my sense of fair play is offended.
> 
> Marketing is hyperbolic by nature, Everything is marketed as "new" "improved" "best ever" "revolutionary" etc. Who is going to buy something that says it is "marginally improved over others" or "not really better, just different"? Certain posters here consistently indulge in a high degree of hyperbole in what they post so it is a little ironic that they profess to be offended by marketing hype.
> 
> ...


Thank you Jay. I agree, people are smart enough here to looking beyond hyperbole, and see what a product truly is.


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## re-peat (Jun 30, 2012)

CineSamples @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> But, re-peat, can we keep the tone more positive and constructive?


If Mike (the other one) apologizes to me (for the accusation of sexism) in a font size set to either 'Large' or 'Huge', I'll think about it.

_


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## MaestroRage (Jun 30, 2012)

peat, with all due respect your overly aggressive tone is starting to grate. You've been offered a refund, honestly if this stuff bothers you so much get your money back and move on.


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## Igor (Jun 30, 2012)

rgames @ Fri Jun 29 said:


> A second nit with VSL WW is the difficulty in doing fast runs.
> rgames



wow, really? That's where I think VSL shines. eh, go figure.


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## Igor (Jun 30, 2012)

btw, I've gotta say, I really wasn't looking to move the slamming by peat et al. going on in the other thread to over here. I was just looking for an opinion on CW vs VSL from folks who own both, which antonio actually did really well from the get go. (Thanks antonio.) I too am curious about Berlin WW. Might have to wait-and-see for now... (But with that said, I'm definitely a fan of Cinesamples' stuff.)


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## rocking.xmas.man (Jun 30, 2012)

CineSamples @ 30.6.2012 said:


> 1) many of the notes are you playing are outside of the actual range of a real oboe. Make sure you choose notes that are playable on the instrument. We have expanded the mapping of the ranges on all the instruments to offer further flexibility (but don't orchestrate those notes for a real player!
> 2) sounds like you are also using the pianissimo dynamic for very high notes. Very tricky to play up there at that dynamic on oboe. Make sure to use a higher dynamic to keep it real.
> 3) the overall sounds is very close-mic sounding. Like I mentioned in the last post, Dennis would rarely use so much close mic. It is intended for coloring the sound captured by the room mics. Use the spot instead if you want a close sound.



Maybe it would be helpful to create an how-to use cinewinds workaround. All these things are not mentioned in the manual nor in the walkthrough video. I guess it would be very helpful to have a document, or video in which is explained for what purpose wich feature is made, and how you think one can get the nicest tone out of cinewinds. Or at least the most natural sound - which obviously is not the same in every case.

By the way i think BWW is also going to be a great library - i would think waiting for purchase until all three of these libraries are released is quite clever.


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## paulcole (Jun 30, 2012)

Piet, if I were you, I would take the refund and let it go.


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## Scrianinoff (Jun 30, 2012)

MaestroRage @ Sat 30 Jun said:


> peat, with all due respect your overly aggressive tone is starting to grate.


Normally I think Piet's sarcasm is quite funny, but in this case I tend to agree that the discussion would benefit from a tone that is somewhat more 'professional'.

Anyway 'professionals', as was written around these parts some time ago, know how to work around these problems 

Did you know that professionals also played a part in all the Star Wars movies. They played the Force.

Professionals also have a bear rug in their studio. The bear rug isn't dead, it's just afraid to move or make a sound unpleasant to the golden ears of the professional.

Do you know how many push-ups professionals do in their studio before they churn out academy award winning scores? Wrong! They don't do push-ups. They push the Earth down.


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## Igor (Jun 30, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Note transitions never have enough "smear".
> rgames



I'm not really sure "smear" is what one should hear in a ww run. We're not really talking about brass embouchure or fretless string movement here. I mean, yeah, the amount of air the player controls does affect the pitch. But these are still "keyed" instruments. So, with the exception of things like crossing register thresholds, or bending notes (a la Gershwin clarinet), you really shouldn't be hearing much smear. At least, I don't think so. Maybe I'm full of it. anyone?


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## Igor (Jun 30, 2012)

and I should mention, I think my only real gripe with VSL is that I have to push a keyswitch to hear a convincing crescendo. Not exactly the most natural thing to do. I'm a big fan of great dynamic crossfade programming. LASS, for example, is utterly fantastic in this regard. I just plug in my expression pedal, add a transformer to Cubase of CC 11 --> CC 1, and voila, I'm controlling real dynamics with my foot while playing with my hands. Love it. (I do the same thing with CineBrass, and any others that have good dynamic crossfade programming. It's hard to go back to keyswitches after that, haha.) Plus, what's nice in that scenario is, once you set up a template with good cross-section balancing, if you want to double a violins part in a flute, for example, you can literally just copy and paste the region, complete with its dynamics automation and stuff, and it just works. Really nice for fast writing. (which I'm a fan of.) Can't really do that with VSL. :(


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## dcoscina (Jun 30, 2012)

I must have gotten the one in a million version of CineWinds because I think it sounds great. I love VSL and their WW but things like the CS bassoon just sounds more reedy and soulful. I might have a small reservation about the legato transitions but it's small and will wait until ver 1.1.

Like Mike P observed I'm frankly stunned by the vitriol and bandwagon jumping I've witnessed not just towards CS but also towards Spitfire.

Want the best orchestral sounds possible? Hire real fucking musicians and quit bitching. It's at least nice to see that Europeans have caught up to North Americans with their sense of entitlement.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 30, 2012)

dcoscina @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Want the best orchestral sounds possible? Hire real fucking musicians and quit bitching. It's at least nice to see that Europeans have caught up to North Americans with their sense of entitlement.



ROTFL!


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2012)

Since this isn't an official cinesamples thread I feel free to comment.

Personally from what I've heard of the demos, there are going to be a lot of problems with this library working it into a standard orchestral template.

Firstly, I noticed that the dynamics are severely out of whack. Boosted in some case beyond all recognition. I especially noticed it in the fl,cl and oboe, but less so in the bassoon which to my ears the bassoon came out more natural sounding than any of the instruments.

I think that's where a lot of the complaints lie. Boosted ww sound shrill, harsh, and overbearing and lose a lot of the finesses. Also, the nose picking( wind and body sounds) naturally disappear unless the recordings are boosted boosting the extraneous sounds a long with it.

I don't know if unnatural gain was applied in the recording stage or in the editing stage, but it is most certainly there in all the demos I've heard so far. If done in the recording stage then Dennis must of thought that he was recording woodwinds solo and not aware of the fact that it was going to be recombined later in the orchestra. If in the editing stage then Cinesamples fell victim to the "sounds good on the salesroom floor" type of thinking. You know when we went to audition synths the showroom synths were so hyped to compete at the moment because nobody would by the softer synths. But, in practice its the softer sounds that worked and all the hyped showroom sounds end up not working.

Also, the transitions are too slow and too noticeable to be of any real practical use.


We, woodwind players, work so hard in getting smooth transitions between notes and in getting clean releases. To boost these things out of balance sets me teeth on edge. Even a cursory youtube study of finer woodwind playing would have revealed the faults I'm hearing in the library.

As talented as Alex is, the demo posted only shows the glaring faults of the library. The fast flute passage at the beginning is so disjointed. My first impression was that it could be done equally as poorly with SO Gold, which arguably has some of the worst woodwinds in the market. 

I'm a bit frustrated and airing a bit of grievance because I feel once again, that woodwinds which are perhaps one of the most difficult instrument groups to capture has gotten the rush treatment by people that have no appreciation for or understanding of woodwind playing. It's like would it kill people to read an orchestration text dealing with the subject. 

I understand wanting to beat the competition to the market place. Perhaps a business decision, but if what's being offered isn't even as good as that which was offered 10 years go by VSL, then what's the point in rushing to market. I think the focus should be on raising the bar. Which from what I heard, wasn't raised at all.

For all devs, every effort should be made to keep the natural dynamics of woodwinds in tact. There's no need for power woods. Woods aren't brass players. Woodwinds aren't designed to "cut through a mix" they can if properly orchestrated, but that's a different thing entirely from boosting gain to compete with string and brass sections. Woodwinds are an isolated group when heard or lie in support of larger groups in which case they add color rather than be noticed.

1000 years of woodwind development shouldn't be ignored just because we can turn the group fader up. They have a place and purpose in an orchestra like no other group and any orchestrator who knows how to orchestrate knows their place and how to use them. But, there place isn't to compete with the loudness of brass players or the fullness of string players.

Woodwinds sound soft when you record them, they sound soft when you're editing and mixing, you must resist the urge no matter how tempting to turn them up. 

Please forgive if my thoughts seem disjointed and out of whack. It's a personal subject for me and I'm doing all I can to not let my passionate feelings on the matter explode on print.


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## antoniopandrade (Jun 30, 2012)

Thank you Igor for getting back on the original topic. In the end it's always good to have multiple libraries for every section you wish to mock-up. Every one will complement the other and make-up for inherent strengths and weaknesses. I currently own HS and CS2, and am planning on purchasing LASS2 in the future, because I miss a little bit of grit, that closer, rawer sound, and smaller ensemble possibilities. 

In this case, I do really like the VSL woodwinds, nothing wrong with them, but CW does have plenty that VSL doesn't have, and to me it's mostly in the sound and the ease-of-use. The sound is quite lush, and there is more noise, but that's just the way it is with the choice of venue. When you buy a "Cine" library, I think it's sensible to accept that there are pluses and minuses to a library recorded in a huge scoring stage. I heard Patrick Doyle in a SCL meeting praise Spitfire and what it has done to his mock-ups, and their libraries are pretty much the UK equivalent of CS, meant to capture a specific sound in a specific space, with all the good and the bad the comes along with it (I've heard plenty of noise in Spitfire samples, and they even have a disclaimer of sorts, that it is their belief that these little quirks really bring life to mock-ups). No matter what kind of reverb and processing you put VSL through, it will not sound like CW. And on the same coin, CW will never sound like VSL. And that's a great thing.


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## re-peat (Jun 30, 2012)

Some of you seriously believe this is about money? Money has got _nothing whatsoever_ to do with any of this. I don’t care about the money (well, I do, somewhat, but certainly not in this context). I don’t need a refund. 

Look, I don’t feel I’ve been cheated or short-sold. Not at all. Buying CineWinds has been entirely my decision and I wasn’t manipulated or deceived into it. And if it turns out I’m not entirely happy with it, then I’m _the only one_ responsible. I would never blame a seller for a purchasing decision I made that turns out to be unsatisfactory. That’s honestly how I think about this. So, money is certainly not what this is about. The vulgarity of even contemplating it, bah. Completely alien to me.

As it happens, I think I’ve already said more positive things about CineWinds than any other V.I. member, the Mikes excluded, up to now. Yes, surprising isn’t it? (Most everybody else, all wiser people than myself, simply go through the familiar spineless routine of shouting “Awesome!” once, and be done with it.) I prefer to show my appreciation for a library by saying bad things about it. Isolating the flaws. Pointing out the imperfections. The Mikes aren't helped with me saying that CineWinds and Blue are perfect, amazing and fantastic. They're helped with me saying that Blue has distorted notes and that CineWinds has a few quirks and dubious sounds in it.
And the only reason my tone changed — I do agree it changed — during the course of the entire discussion (which started in another thread) is Mike's persistence in saying the wrong things, some of them really wrong.

But about those positive things: on several occasions already, I named CineWinds a good library — I believe I also used the word ‘satisfying’ once — and I also mentioned that the timbres of the instruments are nicely captured. In between those compliments, there was awful lot of blunt negativity and occasionaly uninspired sarcasm, I admit. But some useful things too, I hope.
And I even called CineWinds _“a good, useful library, like many other of today’s libraries”_ in a PM earlier today (where I usually speak with even less inhibition than I do in public) and added _“These four instruments really sound acceptable, especially in their 'normal' registers. The ugly sound I stumbled upon, only occurs in the low velocity layer of the highest register of the flute. The rest of the flute is not bad at all.”_

See?

Anyway, I’ve already explained the cause and nature of my irritation more than enough. I’m not going to do it again.
And I promise: from now on, I will stay out of this and any other CineSamples thread for as long as I live.
But I’ll keep buying their libraries (if they allow me to, anyway). Every CineSamples library I’ve bought thusfar does have enough good things in it (except CineOrch, which I dislike completely), to make buying the next one a not entirely unsensible decision.

_


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## MaestroRage (Jun 30, 2012)

peat, I'll admit everything you've said is valid and I, as well as many, appreciate your honesty. I just feel sometimes it comes off as a form of damning fire which personally kind of confuses me whether on what was said was done so from a cold logical place. Or a place of misplaced passion.

Anyway, regarding what this thread was supposed to be about (lol). I'm waiting on Berlin. I honestly have no interest in EW's offering. I have no interest in anything EW with PLAY as it is. As it stands it feels like Berlin is going to be offering more for the same price (assuming they follow their current pattern which could very well be wrong of course).


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## Igor (Jun 30, 2012)

Scrianinoff @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Did you know that professionals also played a part in all the Star Wars movies. They played the Force.



Dude, this is awesome. I wish I came up with it so I could use it in a forum signature.


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## Igor (Jun 30, 2012)

antoniopandrade @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Thank you Igor for getting back on the original topic. In the end it's always good to have multiple libraries for every section you wish to mock-up. Every one will complement the other and make-up for inherent strengths and weaknesses. I currently own HS and CS2, and am planning on purchasing LASS2 in the future, because I miss a little bit of grit, that closer, rawer sound, and smaller ensemble possibilities.
> 
> In this case, I do really like the VSL woodwinds, nothing wrong with them, but CW does have plenty that VSL doesn't have, and to me it's mostly in the sound and the ease-of-use. The sound is quite lush, and there is more noise, but that's just the way it is with the choice of venue. When you buy a "Cine" library, I think it's sensible to accept that there are pluses and minuses to a library recorded in a huge scoring stage. I heard Patrick Doyle in a SCL meeting praise Spitfire and what it has done to his mock-ups, and their libraries are pretty much the UK equivalent of CS, meant to capture a specific sound in a specific space, with all the good and the bad the comes along with it (I've heard plenty of noise in Spitfire samples, and they even have a disclaimer of sorts, that it is their belief that these little quirks really bring life to mock-ups). No matter what kind of reverb and processing you put VSL through, it will not sound like CW. And on the same coin, CW will never sound like VSL. And that's a great thing.



Yup, I totally agree with everything you just said. (Now, if I can just get my wife to read this forum... sigh... gotta get more of those high-paid gigs so I can continue purchasing these goodies.)


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## Cinesamples (Jun 30, 2012)

kb123 @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> If I may just say, its incredibly easy to find fault or issue with something if one wants to. For me, certainly over the last few months, VI control has become a venue for voicing negativity to the extreme and I truely believe that some gentle moderator direction is required else every new release is going to become a cat fight and as sure as the sun rises, developers will abandon this forum.
> 
> No-one likes direct moderator intervention or censoring of views, but it is their responsibilty to set the tone of what is acceptable and what is not. I certainly haven't found vi-control to be a "good read" recently.



+1

Okay. Now that we derailed Igor's thread.... Back on topic!


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## Niah (Jun 30, 2012)

dcoscina @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> It's at least nice to see that Europeans have caught up to North Americans with their sense of entitlement.



Sense of entitlement?

I thought it was "the costumer is always right". At least that's what I've learned from North Americans.

Oh and if you don't want people b*tching about sample libs and want they to hire real musicians, give them your credit card number...


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## Craig Sharmat (Jun 30, 2012)

kb123 @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> If I may just say, its incredibly easy to find fault or issue with something if one wants to. For me, certainly over the last few months, VI control has become a venue for voicing negativity to the extreme and I truely believe that some gentle moderator direction is required else every new release is going to become a cat fight and as sure as the sun rises, developers will abandon this forum.
> 
> No-one likes direct moderator intervention or censoring of views, but it is their responsibilty to set the tone of what is acceptable and what is not. I certainly haven't found vi-control to be a "good read" recently.



VI has always had an ebb and flow to it and todays discussions are very much like ones we have had for years here. Some of the players are different but the discourse similar. In general we let the members freely discuss the positive and negative points of libraries among other things. When attacks become personal we sometimes step in. That's about it, policy continues as it always has.


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## Casey Edwards (Jun 30, 2012)

If Piet doesn't want his library, I'll gladly take it and make demos galore! ~o)


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## Jimbo 88 (Jun 30, 2012)

I just have to say I'm soo glad I'm not as talented as some on this forum. I go thru life happy and have a hard time complaining about things. I keep doing the best job I can on my projects and don't have time to hear what is wrong...just work with what works. Thankfull for the tools.


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## José Herring (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't think that anybody is off topic. The topic being a discussion about the battle of the WW.

Plenty of battling going on here.


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## Frederick Russ (Jun 30, 2012)

Craig Sharmat @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> VI has always had an ebb and flow to it and todays discussions are very much like ones we have had for years here. Some of the players are different but the discourse similar. In general we let the members freely discuss the positive and negative points of libraries among other things. When attacks become personal we sometimes step in. That's about it, policy continues as it always has.



Its true. That said, sometimes its not actually what is being said (pros and cons of a library) but _how_ its being said. Because it is easy to personalize an attack when a member decides to mention an advertising term, i.e., next generation, as a way to ridicule and condemn a sample library developer. Because if the intent is to constructively criticize this isn't doing it. In fact it seems to discourage development - not encourage it. There is nothing wrong with debate but this is something to consider seriously. 

My intent is to provide a forum where we can discuss, debate and deliberate candidly AND to encourage development without interfering with healthy dialogue. The last thing we want is to discourage development by presenting an appearance that VI promotes personalized attacks and condemnation - or to discourage healthy debate - because this was never in our intention upon founding the forum. I'm not saying that we need to amend every single thing that is being said because good things can come out of healthy debate. But the key word is _healthy_ and somewhat constructive if possible.


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## synthetic (Jun 30, 2012)

I agree that the tone has gotten ugly here. It's why I rarely visit anymore. Most of the developers are small operations, first time business owners who are musicians themselves. They deserve a more respectful tone than what we're seeing here. But it is the internet so there will always be loudmouths without moderation.


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## synthnut (Jun 30, 2012)

When listening to Piets examples , I can relate to what he's saying ....I had the same feelings when listening to various instruments in Cinebrass Core which I bought ...Some instruments actually sounded like they were recorded with a gate that did not close fast enough at the end of a phrase ....Other's were just plain noisy.....Perhaps Piets tone of voice could have been a little gentler , but his examples were valid, at least to me they were .....On the positive side , the Timbre of the instruments recorded were very nice , and a lot of the library from what I have heard was recorded cleanly ... The only issue I have is that I am hearing the same recorded problems in this library as I heard on Cinebrass .....I'm not throwing any blame on the engineers , or the venue, or anyone else involved in these recordings , but the problem DOES in fact exist , and sticks out when playing certain quiet passages with fewer instruments involved .... I am sure that every developer puts their best efforts into their projects , and for this I commend each and every one of them .... Jim


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## rgames (Jun 30, 2012)

I think it's important to point out that the "noise" that shows up in these recordings is pretty typical. The difference is that it normally gets edited out. They're leaving that part to the end user.

It's also different because the noise repeats every time the sample is played. So while the recording for a cue would have isolated noises in random spots, the noise in the samples is exactly the same every time that sample gets played back. So it's much more apparent.

My guess is that they used a pretty standard setup and approach to recording the samples. For recording a cue, it would have been fine. But recording for a sample library requires a different approach or an acceptance that the end-user is going to have to do some tweaking.

They could have spent months doing that tweaking but then I doubt it would be a $300 library. So take the good with the bad - you're not paying for the tweaks you don't need.

The problem I have with the library is that I'm still not sold on the legatos in faster sections. Hopefully we'll hear some more demos soon. In general, I have trouble with the legatos on my Cinesamples libraries (Voxos and Brass). I think they need to do some tweaking on their legato scripts. They sound great for slow lines but as soon as I pick up the speed the legato instruments sound a bit off.

I think it's related to the noise problem - if you record a fast run, you get the ring out of the room plus the noise floor. If you generate a recording of a run using the samples, you get the same noise floor added to *every* legato transition. So if they start overlapping, you get a build-up that sounds unnatural. Could also just be a result of the room (if so it seems they could add some type of speed-sensitive condition in the script, i.e. the legato transition fades faster when many start to overlap). Dunno. Just thinking out loud...

rgames


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## EastWest Lurker (Jun 30, 2012)

Nevermind.


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## Igor (Jun 30, 2012)

rgames @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> if you record a fast run, you get the ring out of the room plus the noise floor. If you generate a recording of a run using the samples, you get the same noise floor added to *every* legato transition.
> rgames



I think you're onto something. I suppose VSL's solution to this was their "silent stage" recording process. But then, their "silent stage" is part of why I prefer CB over their brass. I also suspect that one may want more "noise" or "presence" for the sections that tend to be a.) loudest, and b.) furthest away from the conductor/audience, because those sounds would be more likely to bounce around the room before reaching audience ears. In that respect, CB makes total sense, and a percussion library with a bit of presence may also be nice in a mix. It's funny, the thing I love about LASS and VSL winds is the very thing I don't want in my brass and perc. 

But then again, that VSL quietness is also part of why I sometimes find myself mixing in the albion winds on stac passages.

yargh, you just can't win. (unless you hire the real thing... but now we're just going around in circles.)


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## jleckie (Jun 30, 2012)

But Jay. I think you too were onto something there.


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## Hannes_F (Jul 1, 2012)

I for one am curious whether CineSamples can solve the first two problems that Piet found (legato and consistency). If yes then combined with the sound this library would be promising.


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## jamwerks (Jul 1, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> mikebarry @ Sat Jun 30 said:
> 
> 
> > - SONY is indeed a premiere scoring stage
> ...



I don't agree with you Piet. The quality of the room, the engineer, and players is more than evident to me. The issues that you've brought up seem to be more of the order of editing & and playing techniques.


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## wqaxsz (Jul 1, 2012)

Hi,

i thought this forum was musicians helping musicians 
(including everyone's voicing temper being different a good things in robot-cows' land).

Virtual instrument composers forum.

And nobody's finding a bit shameful or strange and dangerous to see that many companies selling their products 
( this is not VIslutz i suppose) and that many employees ( some don't mention their relationship, some have even the rights to have two accounts ).

What is funny is that some people have bought the library, saying it is a good library, 
and when some things are pointing out "oh my god how dare you say... mind your manners...blabla" 
There is no place for business ego here. 
People are selling you something and i would like to see how would they sell be without two or three specific fora. 

This has become Vislutz' land or what ?! 

This forum is disappointing.
Now you can complain and whine.

Cheers to you$.


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## jamwerks (Jul 1, 2012)

CineSamples @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> 1) many of the notes are you playing are outside of the actual range of a real oboe. Make sure you choose notes that are playable on the instrument.
> 2) sounds like you are also using the pianissimo dynamic for very high notes. Very tricky to play up there at that dynamic on oboe. Make sure to use a higher dynamic to keep it real.



1) Not sure what notes you're speaking of, but many composers (R. Strauss, Stravinsky, etc.) use occasionally the oboe in very high registers especially for that pinched, stressed sound. But of course it can't be played at PP way up there.

It's important imo to have access to all the colors of an instrument (and not just those used in mainstream film music) when recording registers, articulations etc.


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## EwigWanderer (Jul 1, 2012)

jamwerks @ 7.1.2012 said:


> It's important imo to have access to all the colors of an instrument (and not just those used in mainstream film music) when recording registers, articulations etc.



The name is Cinewinds, so it's for cinematic music. Price is only $299 at the moment. VSL has more articulations and for complete version of WW the price is much much higher. 

Hope they release some info about 1.1 update soon cause there seems to be enough issues to do an update of CW.


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## adg21 (Jul 1, 2012)

CineSamples @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> kb123 @ Sat Jun 30 said:
> 
> 
> > If I may just say, its incredibly easy to find fault or issue with something if one wants to. For me, certainly over the last few months, VI control has become a venue for voicing negativity to the extreme and I truely believe that some gentle moderator direction is required else every new release is going to become a cat fight and as sure as the sun rises, developers will abandon this forum.
> ...



Oh my god.

I didn't want to post in this thread but I can't believe what I'm reading. Moderation of Piets posts and examples would be a terrible idea. His examples and the issues he's raised - especially one's that relate to issues I've had with Cinebrass (i.e. example 2) is helping me to make an informed decision as to whether I'll buy it (or to put it another way - whether the product is ready to buy). They might have come out eventually in another way - but for his timely and rigorous testing of the product and spending time uploading his examples I am really rather grateful. He has said nothing offensive. And certainly nothing that warrants moderation. The mere suggestion of moderating Piet's posts has probably put him off posting again which is just silly.


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## Daryl (Jul 1, 2012)

Igor @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> and I should mention, I think my only real gripe with VSL is that I have to push a keyswitch to hear a convincing crescendo. Not exactly the most natural thing to do. I'm a big fan of great dynamic crossfade programming. LASS, for example, is utterly fantastic in this regard. I just plug in my expression pedal, add a transformer to Cubase of CC 11 --> CC 1, and voila, I'm controlling real dynamics with my foot while playing with my hands. Love it. (I do the same thing with CineBrass, and any others that have good dynamic crossfade programming. It's hard to go back to keyswitches after that, haha.) Plus, what's nice in that scenario is, once you set up a template with good cross-section balancing, if you want to double a violins part in a flute, for example, you can literally just copy and paste the region, complete with its dynamics automation and stuff, and it just works. Really nice for fast writing. (which I'm a fan of.) Can't really do that with VSL. :(


Try using Velocity xFade and your wishes will come true. The two problems you will find are:

1) All instruments don't necessarily react the same at the same volume, so there will be some tweaking required.

2) There is a moment where you will hear the crossover point between layers with solo instruments. In a tutti section with a bit of reverb, this is inaudible, but in a solo section you have to be a bit careful. There are ways round this, but it will take a bit of effort. FWIW the only developer who has sort of solved this is Sample Modeling. I can hear the same "phasing" on every other developers' solo products, so it is something that you will need to work around, if you want to do this dynamic xFading.

D


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## Daryl (Jul 1, 2012)

dcoscina @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> It's at least nice to see that Europeans have caught up to North Americans with their sense of entitlement.


I'm sorry to have to correct you David, but I think that you people in the Colonies will find, if you bother to do your homework, that we invented entitlement. :lol: 

D


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## Daryl (Jul 1, 2012)

josejherring @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Personally from what I've heard of the demos, there are going to be a lot of problems with this library working it into a standard orchestral template.


Jose, I'm not going to quote you whole post, but I suggest that everyone here who is not used to working with an orchestra should read it very carefully. As I am not a Woodwind player, I can be even ruder. Woodwind instruments are pathetic, weedy little things, and are designed to be swamped by the rest of the orchestra. The Oboe, in particular, is notoriously difficult to record, and any engineer who tells you the opposite is either a genius, or is trying to hide their failures. :lol: 

One of the big problems is that with some exceptions in range, a Woodwind instrument does not set off a room in the same way as a Brass instrument or a String section. Therefore trying to mix an instrument recorded in an empty room with the more ambient sounding instruments, is very difficult, even with good writing.

The strange thing is that none of this is really a problem in a concert situation, as our ears are much cleverer than any microphone yet invented.

D


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## re-peat (Jul 1, 2012)

Despite my promise of staying out of this thread, allow me one final addendum. Re-reading some of the stuff I wrote yesterday, I have to shamefully admit: some of what I said strikes me now also as entirely unfair and incomprehensibly unintelligent. And for the first time in all my years at V.I., I believe I made a bit of a fool of myself.
Been in a spot of trouble here before, but on each of those previous occasions, I was (and remain to this day) totally convinced that there was more good to the conflict than bad, and that things needed to be said exactly the way I said them. Not this time however. While I still stand by nearly all the criticisms I expressed — especially those which I illustrated with audio examples —, there’s no denying that my remarks increasingly degenerated into unpleasant childishness with no value or merit, using a tone that any good, constructive discussion can really do without. V.I. is a better place than this, far better than the level I brought it down to yesterday and the day before.

I could blame things on Mike’s sexism-accusation (which really angered and upset me, like few things have before), but even that doesn’t excuse the idiocy I resorted to in some of my recent postings.

I particularly regret comments like “so-and-so library”, “mediocre sound” and other similar phrases. Because none of that is true. Even more deplorable are the things I said to and about Dan, someone who I’ve meanwhile come to know as a kind, wise and very sensible person. And, finally, rating CineWinds’ oboe as low as I did, by comparing it unfavourably to Kirk Hunter’s, is also something I want to retract. (Me suggesting that there actually might be something of musical value in a Kirk Hunter library, is in fact a pretty good indication of how completely I was debilitated by the strange madness which appears to have possessed me these past couple of days.)

So, what can I say? The usual? Mmm … I’m not going to do the meaningless ‘I apologize’-dance again, because that’s just typing the required letters in the right order until they form those words — a hollow and insincere easy-way-out if ever there was one — and besides, this entire post is already an apology, to anyone concerned. And I’ve also expressed apologies in private, to those who I believe are entitled to them. I hope this settles it.

And as a further virtual handshake, I will also write a demo-piece for CineWinds, showcasing some of the many, many good things that I discovered while searching for the flaws.

_


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## Daryl (Jul 1, 2012)

Frederick Russ @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> Craig Sharmat @ Sat Jun 30 said:
> 
> 
> > VI has always had an ebb and flow to it and todays discussions are very much like ones we have had for years here. Some of the players are different but the discourse similar. In general we let the members freely discuss the positive and negative points of libraries among other things. When attacks become personal we sometimes step in. That's about it, policy continues as it always has.
> ...


I'm not so sure that I agree on everything you say here. Whilst I agree that personalized attacks are not acceptable (even though I remember one developer telling me that I had no musical talent whatsoever!), but if a developer is allowed to hype their product, then potential buyers are entitled to ridicule it. You can't have one without the other.

For example, if a developer were to advertise that their new String library (and I'm not talking about any specific developer) was better than all others, and makes all users' music sound as if it was recorded in Abbey Road 2, by the LSO, I'm just as entitled to say that it sounds nothing like the LSO, or Abbey Road, is out of tune, and basically sounds like a giant synth, if that's what I believe. Both I, and the developer, are stating our opinions, and mine only appears to be rude, because it's negative. If I have to litter mine with lots of "due respect"s and "maybe a tad"s, then their announcement should also be worded with lots of "might be a slight improvement" and "has hints of the sound of" statements. Obviously that's not going to happen, so I firmly believe that as potential customers, we have the right to speak our minds, as long as it doesn't get personal.

D


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## jamwerks (Jul 1, 2012)

re-peat @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> And as a further virtual handshake, I will also write a demo-piece for CineWinds, showcasing some of the many, many good things that I discovered while searching for the flaws.



Looking forward to your demo !


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## dcoscina (Jul 1, 2012)

I don't think anyone believes a ver 1 of any library release is perfect out of the gates. Sticking with the topic of this thread, VSL is definitely comparable to current libs these days mostly because their engine is so darned brilliant. But as a few have pointed out, the samples aren't perfect. The oboe has a lovely tone but very defined velocity changes. Cinewinds for me caught my attention because of its bassoon in particular. The VSL bassoon sounds great at pp-mf but doesn't have that nice reedy sounds I love about that instrument. I find some of t he legato transitions a bit noticeable but I can live with it until CS come out with a rev 1.

I think the bigger issue here is what we have come to expect from new release sample libs. And the even bigger question is,honestly, whether the general public or clients really notice the differences composers would notice. To be quite honest, some of the discussions here seem more like engineering than music. I recognize there is an importance to know these things but at the end of the day, given mthat most of your music will be supporting film or video games, and the general music knowledge of the market, is it worth getting this bent out of shape about these new products?

Constructive input obviously aids the developers in their revisions of their product but I was really surprised at how the tenor of this thread was so toxic. I thought to myself that CS has become the new EW round these parts. And I've even read some unflattering things about Spitfire Audio, guys who release FREE sounds in exchange for UNICEF donations. I mean what a terrible lot they are. Rolls eyes.

I will say that I don't make my living at music so l can be more cavalier about some of these things. But as some others pointed out, it's not what was said but how it was articulated that made things go off the rail.


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## Simon Ravn (Jul 1, 2012)

I know there's already a dedicated CW thread, but the discussion seems to have moved over here, so I'll give my 2 cents here too...

First - on the original topic, I think VSL woods are GREAT! Especially the flutes and the clarinets. The legato sounds somewhat more natural than CineWinds, IMHO, and the recording is very clean and airy. However, placing the instruments in an orchestral setting together with libraries that have way more ambience recorded is a little tough. I tend to run it through an Altiverb impulse to get it to sit more "properly" in context. And I think that VSL works best when you use the instruments for solos. Something that CW might not be quite as good at for a few reasons:

- The biggest problem is with the dynamics, as pretty much everybody have pointed out. The flute seems to span somewhere between mp and f?! Why wasn't it recorded at p/pp? This is pretty essential if I want to use it for solos. As it is now, you have to fake it with volume fades, which is not really doing the trick.

- There are some panning problems... the instruments are bouncing a bit here and there depending on what notes you are playing. This is also very revealing in a solo context.

- The vibrato control is GREAT to have, unfortunately it is let down by the panning issues which can cause the instrument to change perspective when going from vib to nonvib or vice versa. There are also some volume relation problems that cause vib to sound louder than nonvib etc., e.g. on the flute....

- Noise. I am all for natural sounds, but I agree with re-peat that there is excessive and "non constructive" noise, e.g. on the high flute notes and the oboe, also mainly the higher notes. When the air blowing noise of the instrument gets louder than the actual note, then it is NOT natural in any way - it is just useless. Maybe it can create some noise and air in a tutti setting but there are better ways to achieve that and the downside of these noises far outweigh the plusses. 

- The legato intervals can not be turned up and down in volume like they can in Cinebrass, can they? E.g. on the flute some of them are too loud and distracting. Listen to this for example - the flute sounds pretty nice, but it gets this "suction effect" because of those loud interval samples.

http://www.simonravn.com/media/CW-test.mp3

I also have an issue with the oboe in this example - I think the tone is rather nice, but the attacks are too soft - like they were edited out to get a smoother legato...? 

That said, I am sure I will find some good use for this library - and I am hopeful that many of these issues will be bettered in an update to the library.


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## StrangeCat (Jul 1, 2012)

Wow the Bar has just been Raised!

God I thought Miroslav Akai solo winds imported into Kontakt were awesome! When I started using SIPS with them they were drool worthy, I still use them.

Now what is coming out for winds is just amazing! 
I'll be buying Berlin winds because I love String runs and they work beautifully with LASS.

I am sure CineWinds are fantastic and can give great results. 

and everyone needs competition in the market place o-[][]-o 

Getting insane what can be done as Orchestra Mock-ups now on a computer.


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## lux (Jul 1, 2012)

I somehow feel that the new wave of woodwinds releases will have on the mid distance a positive impact on the overall qualtiy and detail of the orchestral arrangements

All in all I expect in a not too long time an increasing request for arrangements where woodwinds are audible and properly detailed, after a long time of Strings-Brass-only ruled trends. 

I think TV scores, where samples are widely used, could probably set the new trends. I could be wrong of course.


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## dedersen (Jul 1, 2012)

I'm anxiously awaiting some pricing and release data info on Berlin Woodwinds. From what's been leaked so far, it looks really interesting.


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## jamwerks (Jul 1, 2012)

dedersen @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> I'm anxiously awaiting some pricing and release data info on Berlin Woodwinds. From what's been leaked so far, it looks really interesting.



Agreed. We now know the price of the CS and HW stuff. Hopefully price info from Orchestral Tools will come very soon. I (like many of us) have to decide wether or not to order HOW.

Looking at all the published info, I can't imagine that BWW will be inexpensive. However, the lack of Bass Clarinet, Contrabassoon (& Alto Flute) will oblige us all to buy also CWW Pro or other.

I'd love for OT to announce the (near future) addition of these missing instruments along with pricing info. In that case I might keep using VSL for these 3 instruments for a few months, and pass on HOW, depending of course on the sound. FWIW no need for runs in the Contrabassoon imo

Lots of options ! :shock:


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## dedersen (Jul 1, 2012)

Agreed, the Alto Flute and Contrabassoon are sorely missed in that otherwise really nice articulation list from BWW. I love the idea of multiple flutes though. Honestly, I haven't used the Bass Clarinet often enough for me to feel like I'll be missing it. 

It must be a lot harder for developers to decide on which instruments to include in the case of woodwinds than for brass (and obviously for strings). While there are certainly a lot of brass instruments to choose from, also outside the "standard" setup it seems that the range of instruments that are actually used on a routine basis is just a LOT wider for woodwinds. Tough job for the developers to draw the line on what to include, I'd imagine.


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## playz123 (Jul 1, 2012)

It appears that very soon there will be three very new woodwind libraries from which to choose. Both pre-release and release pricing is now available for two of them, so I am also eagerly awaiting more information from Hendrik when he is ready to offer it, and would also like to hear more demos from two of the libraries. My choice this time is to assess everything first and then purchase, rather than rush out and buy based on loyalty, previous purchases or pre-release discount prices. Each library already has its own pros and cons, but until I have enough information on all three, I won't be focusing in on just one. However, I will say that the library from OT is already 'appealing' for several reasons, so currently it's already the one in which I am most interested. How's that for some fancy "fence sitting"?


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## José Herring (Jul 1, 2012)

playz123 @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> It appears that very soon there will be three very new woodwind libraries from which to choose. Both pre-release and release pricing is now available for two of them, so I am also eagerly awaiting more information from Hendrik when he is ready to offer it, and would also like to hear more demos from two of the libraries. My choice this time is to assess everything first and then purchase, rather than rush out and buy based on loyalty, previous purchases or pre-release discount prices. Each library already has its own pros and cons, but until I have enough information on all three, I won't be focusing in on just one. However, I will say that the library from OT is already 'appealing' for several reasons, so currently it's already the one in which I am most interested. How's that for some fancy "fence sitting"?




I'm not sure choosing one is the best idea. I think between the three you could get a standard woodwind section. But, any one alone your sections would be pretty lacking. 

I'm mostly disappointed in EW. That instrument list isn't even enough to cover any orchestral context. Most you could do with it is perhaps a very poorly orchestrated wind octect. But forget about doing doubles or triples in unisons. So you really couldn't even stack a triad with 2 flutes on top, 2 oboes in the middle and bassoons or clarinets on bottom. I guess that's what happens when the main creative team bails. You get another half baked product. Woodwinds getting the shaft yet again. :cry: There's so much more great music that can be written with WW.


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## autopilot (Jul 1, 2012)

Hey re-peat - nice post. Good to see positive tone returning here


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## Audun Jemtland (Jul 1, 2012)

re-peat @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> The day the SampleModeling clarinet appears, I will have no further use whatsoever for the CineWinds clarinet.
> 
> _


When is that happening? The release? :D


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## handz (Jul 1, 2012)

I was reading all the post in this thread and in the CineW thread and have to say - even Re-Peat did bit of freak out (did not knowed him from this side before the discussion is very helpful, this is why VI is best sample forum in the world. 

Im bit sad from some of the sound samples posted here - there are indeed some problems with the strong hiss in samples - this distract me a lot, inconsistency between aome articulations are not so much problem for me.

I see there is stilll lot of VSL users and well, WW were probably only thing I ever liked from them, but sitting anythign VSL in the mix is a hard work. And I cant say I agree with the opinions that VSL is still so much "advanced" library nowdays, it have many positives but dry is dry, I never heard demo of VLS which have the "balls", adding reverb to the dry samples will never sound as samples recorded with ambience. 
And this is when those new libs shines for me - true legato, natural ambience, life...finally. 

I also see lots of people here are WW euthanasists and forgot this lib is not made for writing WW classical compositions but more for use in movie music, and in such context I dont see a big need for "extra" instruments like contrabassoon, bass clarinet etc. If you need those insturments and want to do such compositions - VSL is stil here, and for something like chamber music it is IMO more suitable thanx to its dry nature.

Cinewinds sounds great - with some problems, and for sure if they are done similary as CB they will be pleasure to use, simple and effective, main problem for me is if the noise in samples could be easily repaired. Of course Berlin WW will have great runs builder compatibile with OSR - just because of this that lib will be must have. and the third lib, well, if they finally decide to made kontakt version, lets think about it...


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 1, 2012)

handz @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> I also see lots of people here are WW euthanasists and forgot this lib is not made for writing WW classical compositions but more for use in movie music, and in such context I dont see a big need for "extra" instruments like contrabassoon, bass clarinet etc.



Bass clarinet has traditionally been very widely used among film/TV composers. I used it a lot on "Zorro".


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 1, 2012)

josejherring @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> playz123 @ Sun Jul 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm mostly disappointed in EW. That instrument list isn't even enough to cover any orchestral context. Most you could do with it is perhaps a very poorly orchestrated wind octect. But forget about doing doubles or triples in unisons. So you really couldn't even stack a triad with 2 flutes on top, 2 oboes in the middle and bassoons or clarinets on bottom. I guess that's what happens when the main creative team bails. You get another half baked product. Woodwinds getting the shaft yet again. :cry: There's so much more great music that can be written with WW.



Jose' are you perhaps over-looking the fact that is you load similar but slightly different articulations, or different mic positions, you will in effect have more instruments for bigger stuff?

When I get it, I will invite you over over and let's see if we cannot put together a section you will be happy with. I suspect we will be able to.

Of course me being me, I will probably mix them with the Sonivox winds when I want that. Even though they lack "true legato" they have a lovely sound and play well with the other children.


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## Arbee (Jul 1, 2012)

"Dry is dry" with VSL until you use VE Pro 5 and MIR Pro (and Vienna Suite). Then dry is as dry, or as wet, or as anywhere between, or in any space, that you'd like it to be. Just saying....(and no, I'm not a closet VSL "plant" :wink: ). 

The learning effort is pretty intense until you get the hang of it and get your own "favourite spaces" set up (and/or borrow VSL's presets). I'm still getting my head around it all but no disappointments so far. This flexibility (and rock solid stability) has kept from me pulling the trigger on a number of other libraries that sound great and seem quicker and easier "out-of-the-box". 

I even quite like VSL's "Inspiration Presets" concept which seems to be heading down the path of some of the section libraries like Albion and OE for sketching ideas. 

Must confess I'm not really getting the "old fashioned" claims about VSL, it seems to me that they are building a very comprehensive and modular working environment. My disclaimer however is that I'm not working to the tight deadlines that many here are, so I have time on my side to investigate and get things set up the way I want them.

Back on topic, I'm waiting for Samplemodelling to get into the WW space as I'm more into smaller ensemble sounds. Along with Tanuj, VSL plus SM seems like a pretty solid foundation.


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## handz (Jul 1, 2012)

Arbee - MIR is nice but still I never heard VSL demo sounding really "big" end epic to me, I still believe that once the samples are recorded with natural verb it always sounds much "live" than dry samples with added verb


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## Igor (Jul 1, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> handz @ Sun Jul 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I also see lots of people here are WW euthanasists and forgot this lib is not made for writing WW classical compositions but more for use in movie music, and in such context I dont see a big need for "extra" instruments like contrabassoon, bass clarinet etc.
> ...



gotta agree with Jay here. Bass Clarinet's been ubiquitously used since Bernard Herrmann et al. made 'em so damned popular in the 60s. It's hard to imagine a number of the great film scores without that sound.


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## Igor (Jul 1, 2012)

Arbee @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> Must confess I'm not really getting the "old fashioned" claims about VSL, it seems to me that they are building a very comprehensive and modular working environment. My disclaimer however is that I'm not working to the tight deadlines that many here are, so I have time on my side to investigate and get things set up the way I want them.



The "old fashioned," I think, largely has to do with the sort of keyswitching required for dynamic movement. Yeah, you can use the velocity crossfade, but those instruments (many with only 2 velocity layers) weren't really built for that. And yeah, for those needing to write, mockup, mix and deliver fast, that can sometimes be a pain.


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## handz (Jul 1, 2012)

Guys I did not want to sound like "nobody needs bass clarinet" but I think you can live without it or better said - it is not so exposed instrument so it cant be added from older lib, to me th "golden" four is what Im looking for mainly in WW lib, well English horn is nice addition too usually but Im OK with decent sounding obe. VSL have not nice obe unfortunately.


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## Igor (Jul 1, 2012)

handz @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> VSL have not nice obe unfortunately.



really? I think as long as you keep it mostly in the p velocity layer, their french oboe sounds killer.


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## Daryl (Jul 2, 2012)

handz @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Arbee - MIR is nice but still I never heard VSL demo sounding really "big" end epic to me, I still believe that once the samples are recorded with natural verb it always sounds much "live" than dry samples with added verb


Obviously that's your opinion, and you are entitled to that, but for me it is the other way round. The VSL demos far surpass those of all other developers. That's why it's good that there are multiple products on the market. We all have different tastes.

D


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## Daryl (Jul 2, 2012)

handz @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> VSL have not nice obe unfortunately.


In part I would agree, except to say that the VSL oboe is potentially very good. I do have problems with it, mostly that there are certain notes and articulations that are much harsher than others, and it takes a lot of work to make them natch up. If I could get at the samples myself, I would fix them, but as I can't, I have to waste a lot of time on every track, which is a PITA.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with the Oboe, and to my ears it is streets ahead of anything else out there. I think we'll just have to accept that you don't like VSL samples. :wink: 

D


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 2, 2012)

Interesting thread and good on you for posting your last, Piet.


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## HDJK (Jul 2, 2012)

dedersen @ Sun Jul 01 said:


> I'm anxiously awaiting some pricing and release data info on Berlin Woodwinds. From what's been leaked so far, it looks really interesting.



My guess is, the price will be 399.- like the other products Hendrik is selling.


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## ed buller (Jul 2, 2012)

VSL's dryness can be frustrating and yes Cinebrass's horns and bones SOUND marvellous but i have to say that the variety of expressions possible in VSL completely makes up for it. The sound much more like a real instrument when you play it.......if only both where possible...........ah to dream

e


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 2, 2012)

ed buller @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> VSL's dryness can be frustrating and yes Cinebrass's horns and bones SOUND marvellous but i have to say that the variety of expressions possible in VSL completely makes up for it. The sound much more like a real instrument when you play it.......if only both where possible...........ah to dream
> 
> e



It is possible IMHO. Hollywood Brass sounds very real and it sounds great and has lots of articulations, although 90% of what I want to write I can achieve well with 5 articulations per instrument.


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## Peter Alexander (Jul 2, 2012)

ed buller @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> VSL's dryness can be frustrating and yes Cinebrass's horns and bones SOUND marvellous but i have to say that the variety of expressions possible in VSL completely makes up for it. The sound much more like a real instrument when you play it.......if only both where possible...........ah to dream
> 
> e



I'm not a VSL dealer. 

I think you're missing three major design points here. 

First, it was always intended for VSL to be dry so that the composer/post, etc, had the freedom to shape the sound and place the sound as they wanted it and where they wanted it. This IS a feature many like. For orchestral work, it gives you lots of ensemble placement opportunities beyond the standard setup.

Second is the Vienna Instruments Player. If you know your instrumentation, you can set up your own custom matrixes very quickly and there after, you're load and go until you need to reset for a new project. The Vienna Instrument's player can reduce track count significantly. 

Third, spectacular results can be achieved whether you perform your lines live or as Jay Bacal has done, step timed the lines in. 

Regarding spatial placement, as I've written in my reviews on http://www.soniccontrol.tv (www.soniccontrol.tv), you now have three dominant methods, two of which come out Vienna: MIR and the Vienna Suite with FORTI/SERTI.

And if you don't like those choices, there's Spat.


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## handz (Jul 2, 2012)

I never wanted to argue about VSL usefulness, just saying I always prefer sound of the samples that have ambience recorded in, and I never ever had problem mixing 3 different ambient libs together, but mix VSL together with ambient limb is really tricky. 

VSL interface, number of performance options etc is still unbeatable (ok maybe sample modelling ) and of course I understand many composers love to have all this but as EW lurke said- Im usually fien with +/-5 articulatins and occassional extra here and there, Im looking for what sounds live and lush usually.


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## Daryl (Jul 2, 2012)

handz @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> I never wanted to argue about VSL usefulness, just saying I always prefer sound of the samples that have ambience recorded in, and I never ever had problem mixing 3 different ambient libs together, but mix VSL together with ambient limb is really tricky.
> 
> VSL interface, number of performance options etc is still unbeatable (ok maybe sample modelling ) and of course I understand many composers love to have all this but as EW lurke said- Im usually fien with +/-5 articulatins and occassional extra here and there, Im looking for what sounds live and lush usually.


I'm not trying to argue with you either. I just take exception to your statement about VSL sounds being lifeless. To me, if a sample has life, it means that it is a kind of mini performance in itself. Nothing wrong with that, but it also makes its use severely limiting. I prefer to create that life myself though my programming. Nothing wrong with either approach, but my approach takes more effort, whereas yours is probably quicker.

D


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## Niah (Jul 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> It is possible IMHO. Hollywood Brass sounds very real ...



ahahah no way I just wanted to quote this for all prosperity. Jay Asher actually said that library X sounded real... :mrgreen:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 2, 2012)

Niah @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > It is possible IMHO. Hollywood Brass sounds very real ...
> ...



It does but I love it because it sounds good as well.

Look, they ALL sound real to the same degree that a beautiful color photo of a beautiful [EDIT by Hannes_F] significant other [EDIT off] looks real.

But going to bed with that photo is considerably less satisfying :lol:

And you mean posterity I assume, not prosperity.


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 2, 2012)

Daryl @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> handz @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > I never wanted to argue about VSL usefulness, just saying I always prefer sound of the samples that have ambience recorded in, and I never ever had problem mixing 3 different ambient libs together, but mix VSL together with ambient limb is really tricky.
> ...



http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=9478


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## Niah (Jul 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Niah @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > EastWest Lurker @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> ...



oops yes I meant posterity not prosperity thanks for rectifying. o 

Regarding your photo analogy I think realizing the fact that the two aren't the same isn't the problem here. The problem that I see is that most people here don't have a choice. 

Using sample libraries and music technology in general has become and necessity not a choice. It's only natural that consumers demand the best results from the people that are creating these tools, also because these same people are constantly raising the bar.


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## re-peat (Jul 2, 2012)

Here http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/ReWind.mp3 (a little something). A bit of rush job, I'm afraid (half an evening and a morning), but I first started out doing a piece for wind quartet, like I promised, but then, halfway through, it became quite clear that a piece with nothing but 4 exposed woodwinds would never show CineWinds in a very favourable light (the sound is there, absolutely, but as I said before: I keep struggling with the transitions going from one articulation to another, and the dynamics issue which Simon mentioned is indeed a handicap when doing solo parts), so I changed my mind and quickly wrote something silly for small orchestra instead.

This arrangement only uses ensemble strings (something I usually never do) and that is certainly not to the overal sound's advantage, but strings is not the focus here anyway, so I left it like this: my sketch strings.
No reverb either in this mix (except for one instance of EMT250 plate to push the LondonPercussion triangle in the background). And also no compression, just a bit of limiting to keep the loudest bits in line.

_


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## Mike Greene (Jul 2, 2012)

Wow! Piet, you are a very talented guy. Even the strings (ensemble or otherwise) sound great and this definitely makes me want to buy these woodwinds.


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## paulcole (Jul 2, 2012)

Very very good Piet.

Got to say though that unless the winds are right up front (which is the incorrect thing to do technically), it's hard to hear the difference (through comparison) to anything else.

Great little track and I find myself concentrating on the strings alas. And thinking of Charles Ives. :lol:


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## noiseboyuk (Jul 2, 2012)

Yeah, great Piet. Everything blends very well, excellent composition of course.


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## organix (Jul 2, 2012)

I didn't read all the posts in detail, sorry. But here are my 2 cents of actual woodwinds discussions.

If you own CineBrass and you like it, CineWinds is great for you and a must have.
If you don't already own CB, CineWinds is a nice to have. 

If you own EW's Hollywood series libraries and you like it, you'll also like Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds and it's a must have.
If you don't own any EW's Hollylibs, the HOW is just a nice to have.

If you own Orchestraltools's OSR lib and you like it, the upcoming Berlin Woodwinds will make you happy and it's a must have.
If you don't own OSR, BWW will be a nice to have.

If you own any of the VSL libs, then all other libs can be a great addition and always nice to have.  

If you have enough money, buy them all. :D 

If we talk about VSL Woodwinds, we've to distinguish between the Special Editions and the full Woodwinds Library. The SE are limited in instruments, articulations, in amount of layer and round robin samples. The SE Woodwinds have a nice legato, but short articulations sounds more as a machine gun. No different short articulations like CW's staccato, tenuto and marcato.

The complete VSL Woodwinds Bundle is a monster in amount of instruments and articulations, but costs in full version about 2000 bucks! 

I've used the VSL SE Woodwinds and some single instruments the last few years, but I never felt really happy because of the bad short repetition capabilities. 
VSL's silent stage brings a sound to the instrument that is unrealistic. In real world no one would play an orchestral instrument in a place such the silent stage. The VSL silent stage seems very flexible for mixing and it's to you how it sounds. But if you make any mistake or use the wrong tools or settings on your mix, the VSL will not sound right. 

I've just bought the Cinewinds in addition to CB and it's great to use them together. But I'm sure HOW and BWW will be great too. BWW comes with some very interesting features like runs builder or the trill orchestrator adapted from symphonic sphere. And, BWW will have real Ensembles and not limited by only solo instruments. 

Thanks for reading. :lol: 
Markus


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## handz (Jul 2, 2012)

Really cool re-peat! will listen it more times as something I liked a lot and something not and I want to find out what it was. Overal it sounds really nice. Thank you very much for example, maybe would you be so kind and post winds only version?


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## germancomponist (Jul 2, 2012)

Great piece, Piet! 

As always, I also here like your arrangement. You for sure have your own style, a nice one!


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## jleckie (Jul 2, 2012)

re-peat @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Here http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/ReWind.mp3 (a little something).
> 
> _



Nice piece. Fun. If you have the full winds from VSL it would be nice to sub those for the cinesamples. I dont think there would be much of a difference tbh. Especially with all the short notes in the piece.


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## Cinesamples (Jul 2, 2012)

Nice piece Piet!


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## synergy543 (Jul 2, 2012)

re-peat @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Here http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/ReWind.mp3 (a little something). A bit of rush job, I'm afraid (half an evening and a morning), but...


Oh yes, such a shame (if I am permitted to say so myself). :wink: 
I would have expected so much more from you had you not rushed and given it more than just an evening. :roll: 

Piet - that's frickin amazing! It actually makes me want to impulsively buy CineWinds. And I too appreciate your continued participation here. Ya have an interesting way with words sometimes, but also with music too. Don't be silenced (despite the fact that I've been at odds with you myself at times).

So if I may ask (seriously this time) - after using CineWinds, what are your revised thoughts? While I love your piece, I do notice that you don't use any soft passages at all! Is there a reason for this or was it just the mood of your piece to be cheerful, bright and mf throughout?

Can CineWinds do soft gentle passages? Or is film music always supposed to be as loud as a marching band in the wind department? (We've already established that Newman strings can be soft and delicate).

And it would be really good of the Cinesample guys to respond to the question about soft passages too - as with only one official demo example so far (and few user examples even after several days now), it really leaves one wondering what to expect. Some more demos would be welcome.


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## ryanstrong (Jul 2, 2012)

Though not commercially available, regarding the battle of woodwinds, Spitfire's Bespoke British Wood sounds so amazing...

http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws. ... kofiev.mp3

I'd lobby Spitfire to work on a commercial woodwind library because I LOVE the woodwinds in Albion. So sweet but so raw. Would love to hear their point of view and take on winds!


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## lee (Jul 2, 2012)

re-peat @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Here http://users.telenet.be/deridderpiet.be/ReWind.mp3 (a little something).



Link doesnt work here. Could you post it again, Piet? Please?


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## Jack Weaver (Jul 2, 2012)

Wow, Piet!

You took that file down in record time! Usually they last a couple days. 

.


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## NathanRightnour (Jul 2, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Sat Jun 30 said:


> Without commenting on the quality of the libraries, other than to say that they are all fine libraries, it seems to me that on one side we have the VSL and LASS libraries, which are very dry, and the CineSamples and Spitfire stuff, which have a large amount of baked in sound of really lovely rooms. I think HS and HB are smack dab in the middle and presumably HOW will be as well.
> 
> Personally, (centrist that I am, the middle is mostly where I want to be.



Having played said libraries, I agree with you completely. I do like the extra room sometimes, which is in line with my overwhelming fascination with reverb.


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## lee (Jul 2, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Wow, Piet!
> 
> You took that file down in record time! Usually they last a couple days.
> 
> .



I now realize, you gotta stay updated on vi-control like facebook. A day or two without visiting, and.. You had your chance and you lost it! 

Havent joined FB yet, btw.


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## germancomponist (Jul 2, 2012)

lee @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> I now realize, you gotta stay updated on vi-control like facebook. A day or two without visiting, and.. You had your chance and you lost it!
> 
> Havent joined FB yet, btw.



There is some truth in it! o-[][]-o


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## jamwerks (Jul 2, 2012)

rystro @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Though not commercially available, regarding the battle of woodwinds, Spitfire's Bespoke British Wood sounds so amazing...



Sound great. I also wish that Spitfire would do some full comercial libraries (strings, WW, brass!!


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## Hannes_F (Jul 2, 2012)

Piet, bring the example up again, please


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## tumeninote (Jul 2, 2012)

I'd like to hear it as well Piet. Thanks!


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## re-peat (Jul 2, 2012)

Jack Weaver @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> You took that file down in record time!


Yes, I waited until I was sure that someone from CineSamples had heard it. After that, it had served its purpose and lost its reason to exist.
You haven't missed much anyway, trust me. It was one of those pieces that have a faint whiff of 'being interesting' about them upon first and, maybe, second hearing, but after that, their complete mediocrity comes quickly and unstoppable to the surface.

_


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## lee (Jul 2, 2012)

re-peat @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> Jack Weaver @ Mon Jul 02 said:
> 
> 
> > You took that file down in record time!
> ...



Haha, you have your ways of becoming reconciled Piet.

/Johnny


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## HDJK (Jul 11, 2012)

HDJK @ Mon Jul 02 said:


> dedersen @ Sun Jul 01 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm anxiously awaiting some pricing and release data info on Berlin Woodwinds. From what's been leaked so far, it looks really interesting.
> ...



Well, pre-order price is 549, normal price will be 699.-.

So I was way off :oops:


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## playz123 (Jul 11, 2012)

That $549 price includes VAT. It's less for those who don't have to pay that tax (ca. $461.).


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## HDJK (Jul 11, 2012)

I've seen that, too. I wished I could justify buying it now, before it hikes to over 600$, because the demos so far sound really good. But you gotta feed those kids as well :wink:


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## José Herring (Jul 11, 2012)

HDJK @ Wed Jul 11 said:


> I've seen that, too. I wished I could justify buying it now, before it hikes to over 600$, because the demos so far sound really good. But you gotta feed those kids as well :wink:



Kids can live on peanut butter for a while. :lol:


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## HDJK (Jul 13, 2012)

josejherring @ Wed Jul 11 said:


> HDJK @ Wed Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen that, too. I wished I could justify buying it now, before it hikes to over 600$, because the demos so far sound really good. But you gotta feed those kids as well :wink:
> ...



Right, and no Jelly on top :mrgreen:


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2012)

OK, most of you will think, "Of course, Jay writes this, he works for EW" but for those of you who are either less cynical or simply know me personally and know that right or wrong, I only write things I believe to be true, I just got my beta version of Hollywood Orchestral Winds and my first reaction is WOW! If you love/like the sound of HS and HB, you are going to love/like HOW as well. 

That is all I can say at this point. Demos will be coming soon.


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## kitekrazy (Jul 13, 2012)

josejherring @ Wed Jul 11 said:


> HDJK @ Wed Jul 11 said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen that, too. I wished I could justify buying it now, before it hikes to over 600$, because the demos so far sound really good. But you gotta feed those kids as well :wink:
> ...



You might have to sub generic mac-n-cheese. Any products using peanuts have increased about 40% within a year.


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## jamwerks (Jul 13, 2012)

EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> I just got my beta version of Hollywood Orchestral Winds and my first reaction is WOW!



That's good to hear ! I'm a bit dubious though about the launch date. If it's still in Beta, I don't see how it could get finished, copied and packaged in just 10 days. But here's for hoping !!


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## EastWest Lurker (Jul 13, 2012)

jamwerks @ Fri Jul 13 said:


> EastWest Lurker @ Fri Jul 13 said:
> 
> 
> > I just got my beta version of Hollywood Orchestral Winds and my first reaction is WOW!
> ...



I think they will make it. I am in a later round of beta testers, not one of the elite few early ones.


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