# Hobbyists: do you ever wonder "why bother?"



## MartinH. (Dec 4, 2020)

I'm a hobbyist and even though my musical pursuits are currently going better than I'm used to (meaning I sort of kind of almost finished a track this week - almost), I still ask myself every once in a while "why am doing this?". Can some other hobbyists here relate to being in some sort of permanent existential crisis regarding their hobby and conflicted about how to allocate their time and attention? 

If composing is your job, you're pretty committed I'd imagine, but us hobbyists can just turn around and walk away any time, what's keeping all you other hobbyists from doing just that? Please don't answer with the sunk-cost-fallacy of having spent $$$$ on your hobby already, that's not an intrinsic motivation in my opinion.


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## asherpope (Dec 4, 2020)

It's fun to make stuff?


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## Fenicks (Dec 4, 2020)

I feel this way sometimes and it's because I have unreasonable expectations of myself. When I obsess over 'being good' is when this attitude begins to fester and it has, in the past, resulted in me stepping away from creating music. I get lost in a thought labyrinth of wondering why I'm bothering with music when I'm a hobbyist amateur with no chance of 'making it'. I get depressed.

But a funny thing happens when I allow myself to suck and accept that whatever song I'm working on right now is an embarrassment that should never be shared with anyone. I feel liberated. It doesn't matter if it's bad. I can still have fun through the process of creation itself. And I do! I have so much fun that it becomes more satisfying than anything else in my life. Maybe one day I'll be half as good as I want to be, but that's not the point. When I sit back and listen to whatever shitty song I've written this week, I feel happy that I at least tried to create and communicate something beautiful. That's enough for me to keep going.


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## Symfoniq (Dec 4, 2020)

I would encourage you to read the following article. G.K. Chesterton’s views on hobbies and amateurs have influenced my own: https://fee.org/articles/in-defense-of-amateurs/


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## Trash Panda (Dec 4, 2020)

I enjoy the process of creating or covering something just as much, if not more than the end result. It’s also satisfying to look at the earlier stuff and see how you’ve grown since then.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 4, 2020)

All the time. I admit a lot of my music just sucks. And that's when I go work on one of my other hobbies. But I always come back.


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## pondinthestream (Dec 4, 2020)

Sometimes I have been very disappointed by the reception of my work, sometimes by the work itself, but at the worst I have dreamed of becoming an "art world" hermit and just making work purely for myself and showing it to no-one at all. Actually I have done that many many times in my life - never recording as a matter of principle for example. But I have never thought of giving music making away - quite the opposite, I have many times thought of giving work away, and as soon as I could I did


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## Beans (Dec 4, 2020)

Fenicks said:


> unreasonable expectations



Often, it comes down to high quality feedback loops. It's difficult to improve without failure. It's difficult to recognize the finer points of failure when you're in a bubble or getting unpaid feedback from random people online.

One option is to get a mentor. A paid one. That next batch of libraries? Maybe you don't need them. Maybe you take that money and find someone - even at VI-C - to help you out. I did. Sometimes, you just gotta ask and make an offer.


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## JohnG (Dec 4, 2020)

Well, everyone's a hobbyist, I guess, when it comes to music. Except maybe Beethoven and people like that.

In the West, people seem to equate "good" with "makes money at it." Which if you think about it is obviously nonsense. I'm sure we can all think of some hugely money-successful people whose music is so awful we are ready to dive across the room to lower the volume if it ever comes on.

I think we should honour our hobbies instead of warping them into yet more obligation and drudgery. We all have enough of that; with these stupid phones we're all basically 'at work' 24 hours a day.


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## Beans (Dec 4, 2020)

JohnG said:


> I'm sure we can all think of some hugely money-successful people whose music is so awful we are ready to dive across the room to lower the volume if it ever comes on.



The best gardener I've met was... just some guy. He had a magic touch, which was really just decades of practice at something he enjoyed.


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## Trash Panda (Dec 4, 2020)

JohnG said:


> In the West, people seem to equate "good" with "makes money at it." Which if you think about it is obviously nonsense. I'm sure we can all think of some hugely money-successful people whose music is so awful we are ready to dive across the room to lower the volume if it ever comes on.


Five Finger Death Punch comes to mind. When over half of your most popular songs are covers, you’re not very good at making music.


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## dcoscina (Dec 4, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Well, everyone's a hobbyist, I guess, when it comes to music. Except maybe Beethoven and people like that.
> 
> In the West, people seem to equate "good" with "makes money at it." Which if you think about it is obviously nonsense. I'm sure we can all think of some hugely money-successful people whose music is so awful we are ready to dive across the room to lower the volume if it ever comes on.
> 
> I think we should honour our hobbies instead of warping them into yet more obligation and drudgery. We all have enough of that; with these stupid phones we're all basically 'at work' 24 hours a day.


Yup Mahler was technically a hobbyist composer and so was Ives. Neither composed for a living. bartok did get commissioned work but augmented that with teaching. Just a couple noteworthy examples.


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## JohnG (Dec 4, 2020)

dcoscina said:


> noteworthy



"noteworthy" -- shameless, David


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## dcoscina (Dec 4, 2020)

JohnG said:


> "noteworthy" -- shameless, David


Gee I honestly didn’t even intend that. It’s been a week....


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## CT (Dec 4, 2020)

Sadly I don't think the "why bother blues" are reserved only for hobbyists!


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## dcoscina (Dec 4, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Sadly I don't think the "why bother blues" are reserved only for hobbyists!


I think there’s the artistic drive to prove your worth to yourself through the act of creating, whether it’s music, visual art, writing, acting. At least that’s a common motivation among my circle of friends.


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## asherpope (Dec 4, 2020)

Mike T said:


> Sadly I don't think the "why bother blues" are reserved only for hobbyists!


If anything they're amplified when trying to actually make a living out of this!


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## rmak (Dec 4, 2020)

I have been working full time for 5 years in the health field, and it has always been a struggle for me pursuing and developing my music interest. Last year, I had an interest in doing covers for pop songs, so there was a time period for several months where I would literally go isolate myself on some hiking trail everyday after work and practice singing to a tree with Ken Tamplin's product. My voice didn't really improve haha. And then during this pandemic, I was working less, doing just telehealth, so I decided to take a sound design course, and for the first time ever, I finished a few tracks that were 3 minutes or 2 minutes in length that were more instrumental or hybrid score music like. I was never able to do that before, and so here I am trying to work with what I had some success and fulfillment in. For the past 1 -2 months, I have been researching and learning about orchestral music. Sometimes, I feel like I am delusional putting so much time and money into this, but at the same time, I feel like I have to keep trying because I have never been an outspoken and charismatic type of person. For me, music is my medium to express myself =). Hopefully, when I have accumulated 10k hours, I will have found more joy and fulfillment in music.

I forgot where this is referenced from but you have to fail x amount of times before you find success, and what success means is different for everyone. Hopefully, you can keep pushing forward. I hope in the future also that I will meet and maybe collaborate and work with other people in my area (Bay Area California) as it is sometimes hard to go on this journey alone.


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## bill5 (Dec 4, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> If composing is your job, you're pretty committed I'd imagine, but us hobbyists can just turn around and walk away any time, what's keeping all you other hobbyists from doing just that?


Nothing; I do do that at various times for varying lengths of time. Don't see anything wrong with it at all. If you need a break, take a break.


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## proxima (Dec 4, 2020)

I want to spend time with music because it feels inherently fulfilling in a way more passive pursuits (like watching TV) do not. The question for me became, do I spend my time just learning to play my instruments (piano, guitar)? I decided that while I want to get much better at them, it's inherently more fulfilling to write music as well. 

Why? Because I know that for any given song, countless people will be able to play it better. But if I write music, I'm creating something that didn't exist before. I don't need to sell it, or even have many people hear it; just the fact that it's something that would not exist without my effort is (mostly) enough.


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## ManicMiner (Dec 4, 2020)

I enjoy the creative process. 
I believe God gave us music to enjoy and glorify him. Open the Bible at the centre, you'll find its largest book: the book of Psalms. A songbook. 
There's so much of God in music, the major minor, the dissonance and resolution, the tension and release... the sin and salvation.
Singing releases endorphins, raising both arms in the air in a worship posture releases endorphins. Its all purposed. 
So few people know the real intention of music, or its real power.


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## Mark Stothard (Dec 4, 2020)

I wonder why I bother quite a lot, then I log into say soundcloud and see someone from places such as Saudi Arabia, or Mexico has played one of my tracks (that I thought stunk) on repeat. This is what keeps me making music, not money or fame, but knowing someone from a few thousand miles away has found my music and likes it enough to want to listen to it again.


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## bill5 (Dec 4, 2020)

JohnG said:


> In the West, people seem to equate "good" with "makes money at it."


Only the stupid ones. And they're everywhere, not just "the West"


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## Polkasound (Dec 4, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> ...but us hobbyists can just turn around and walk away any time, what's keeping all you other hobbyists from doing just that?



I _have_ walked away from creating music before. I released nothing of my own between November 2009 and September 2014. Instead, I focused entirely on another hobby: tennis. But in 2013, I got into virtual instruments, and they impressed me so much that I've had no desire to walk away.

Virtual instruments give me an outlet to express myself musically with a level of quality I could never get using sound modules. People who look at the last several years of my discography probably can't figure me out, because produce music in so many different genres now. Why? Because I finally can! I have the tools at my fingertips to record all the ideas I have in my head, and I'm loving the challenge of making it happen.


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## bill5 (Dec 5, 2020)

Polkasound said:


> I _have_ walked away from creating music before. I released nothing of my own between November 2009 and September 2014.


pft, amateur. I released nothing of my own between the Big Bang and today.


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## mybadmemory (Dec 5, 2020)

For me its just a way to wind down, relax, focus on something other than work, the general troubles of life, and be in my own world for a while.

If I had some idea of trying to make it a career, I can imagine I would question it more, but I’m not. I like my career, and I like doing music just for my own pleasure.

I don’t think we must be able to explain, articulate, or have a reason to like doing something. If we like it it’s good for us. If we don’t we can just stop.


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## muk (Dec 5, 2020)

It's totally relatable. If you don't have a clear goal in mind, it can be hard to focus on any task. Really helpful is knowing beforehand what you are going to do with a composition once it is finished. To know that you'll 'write into the drawer' isn't exactly motivating. So set yourself a goal that you want to achieve. It can be something small like 'once this track is finished, I'll post it to the member's composition board to get feedback'. Or it can be that you decide to participate in a composer competition, and then write a piece specifically for it (do your resarch into what competitions are around in genres that you want to write in). Or it could be a larger goal like 'I want to have my music played in television/film/cinema' etc. Then do your research what a first step in that direction could be, and start working towards that goal step by step. Once you know that you will do something specific with a track when it is finished, it's easier to find motivation. Also, you will get some sort of feedback for your music, achieve some goals you have set yourself. And that can be great moments. I, for example, do remember learning that for the first time, my music had aired on tv. Moments like these can give you the confidence that you aren't doing all this for nothing when you're in a difficult stage of writing.


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## Hywel (Dec 5, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I'm a hobbyist and even though my musical pursuits are currently going better than I'm used to (meaning I sort of kind of almost finished a track this week - almost), I still ask myself every once in a while "why am doing this?". Can some other hobbyists here relate to being in some sort of permanent existential crisis regarding their hobby and conflicted about how to allocate their time and attention?
> 
> If composing is your job, you're pretty committed I'd imagine, but us hobbyists can just turn around and walk away any time, what's keeping all you other hobbyists from doing just that? Please don't answer with the sunk-cost-fallacy of having spent $$$$ on your hobby already, that's not an intrinsic motivation in my opinion.



When I open up a brand new, empty project in Cubase and start noodling on the keyboard, I tell myself that this is going to be the best piece I have ever created and it will be universally loved.

You'd think I would have changed my mind by now after 5,384 attempts...


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## Laddy (Dec 5, 2020)

I've never really considered giving up on music, but sometimes I'm asking myself why I try to make _orchestral _music (with samples of course). That maaaybe my time would be better spent making rock/synth/electronic music.


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## Ivan M. (Dec 5, 2020)

I've stopped bothering about making money. However, simply creating music - I just can't stop. I feel like I have to do it!


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## GtrString (Dec 5, 2020)

For me, music is something Id like to stick with as I grow old.

I enjoy doing it, getting good results is fun, but not an absolute requirement. I think of music as an evolved “voice” of my own, and the studio as a means of expression. Makes me feel part of a democratic world (demos=for the people + cratic=combining form).

Music is a language I can never unlearn. I dont need motivation, music is something I always gravitate to. I love the process of musicking, and guitars is my kind of art objects. Especially art deco, 1950s.

Love, love, love.


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## MarcusD (Dec 5, 2020)

Music is one of very few constants throughout life thats been capable of stimulating a lot of needs. A need to express, explore, evolve and create. Well, for me at least. My relationship with music is, in a way, equal to that of visting a shrink for mental well being.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 5, 2020)

What else are you gonna do with your time? Life is long, ideally, surely I have to fill it with _something_?

Almost my free time consists of making music and training martial arts. I never spend a second of my time questioning why I'm composing music pieces which nobody "needs", practice instruments for "nothing" - and why the heck do I spend so much time training how to fight people, anyway? What's that all about?

If I did that, I would inevitably end up on the road everyone else takes, which is burdening oneself with more work, pressure, obligation and self-abandonement (=kids), because around 30 you suddenly realize you don't know what the fuck to do with yourself anymore. That's what we learned to do, right? Be productive and leave yourself behind, that's a thing both religion and capitalism agree upon.

Or I'd have to consequently turn into a dreary nihilist like all the nerds, assholes and scientism people.

I'm just here to have a good time. The crap part of life is reliably and inescapably brought on to me anyway, don't have to bother with that.


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## Stringtree (Dec 5, 2020)

Part of my music-making joy comes from collaboration, especially with people who are better musicians. People who play other styles. The challenges and successes are rewarding. 

So now that everyone has cooties, there's no jamming or performing, or sharing fun times. 

I've mucked around with the orchestral stuff since the early 90s, and it's ALWAYS been a lonely pursuit. It never mattered how good a mockup sounded, it was the guitar that made people hoot around a campfire or sing along, dance. It was my ticket to a lot of fun times.

Yesterday, I got in my favorite comfy spot on the couch and put a MIDI controller on my lap, hooked it up to a laptop with Kontakt, loaded up Tundra, and just started writing what I played on manuscript paper. Just music that made me satisfied, like the couch.

There. That feels better. Haven't done anything like that in a while. 

The battle station, with its startup sequence, the bewildering array of controls and gauges, thousands of instruments that take time to load, the infinite choices. Sitting down at the computer and getting lost in all the junk is NOT a creative act for me. It predisposes me to be technical. 

Time for me to remember why I enjoy this stuff in the first place. Create now, orchestrate when there's something solid to work on!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 5, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> Yesterday, I got in my favorite comfy spot on the couch and put a MIDI controller on my lap, hooked it up to a laptop with Kontakt, loaded up Tundra, and just started writing what I played on manuscript paper. Just music that made me satisfied, like the couch.
> 
> There. That feels better. Haven't done anything like that in a while.
> 
> ...



That's great. Lately I've been noticing too that the whole "battle station" scenario was kind of scaring me off, and actually isn't a particularly creative or musical experience. To be honest, I' almost kinda dreading it. The computer and all these knobs, parameters, software, routings and all that shit, it totally forces your brain in this other mode of activity, the computing part. You're ultimately using software, while another part of your brain is desperately trying to be artistic somewhere underneath all the noise.

As a result, I've been constantly trying to simplify my orchestral DAW setup more and more, and I'm constantly purging stuff. Witnessing the whole Black Friday craze unfold was particularly bizzare for me this year - everyone just slavishly buying all this stuff ... it's so totally on the other side of the spectrum.

I'm practicing guitar a lot more again these days. Also really got into modding, taking things apart, changing und upgrading stuff etc. a lot recently.

Taking a MIDI controller with you, away from the desk, just loading up a nice sounding patch and writing like that is a brilliant idea. Gotta try that.


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## d.healey (Dec 5, 2020)

I have many hobbies, I do them because I enjoy the process and enjoy the end result even more. 

I love cooking (especially the eating part) sometimes (not often) I'll spend hours on a recipe only to have it go totally wrong, but it's not time wasted, I just found a way not to do it. 

It took me 4 long attempts to successfully make cinder toffee, it's literally just heating sugar and bicarb, I was so frustrated, but when I finally got it right it was wonderful.


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## Stringtree (Dec 5, 2020)

A friend of mine said he hasn't played keyboard lately because he has to go turn the computer on. That struck me as a stupid attitude I, myself, had, so it led me to get out of the rut. 

There was a time I had to wait for three Windows 98 machines to boot up, turn on the speakers, sit down in the chair, load the software, load some instruments, tinker around and get lost in the stuff. 

@Polkasound made a really good point. These sounds are really good, and I am soon hypnotized by how awesome a sampled instrument or section sounds in a real space, and drool begins to stream from the corner of my mouth, my eyes become unfocused and glazed. I get LOST.

Even though it's a single computer now, with fast SSD's, the whole "cockpit" thing seems like the same kind of roadblock. Seems like such a hassle. Guitar, piano, flute, they're always on. Well, some assembly is required with the last one.

The other thing. No challenge like a show to learn songs for, nobody to playfully impress with new speed and agility, no short film project to make me reach for new ideas. Not lately. 

Gotta reacquaint myself with what it is I love about this stuff, that's all.


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## Stringtree (Dec 5, 2020)

d.healey said:


> I have many hobbies, I do them because I enjoy the process and enjoy the end result even more.
> 
> I love cooking (especially the eating part) sometimes (not often) I'll spend hours on a recipe only to have it go totally wrong, but it's not time wasted, I just found a way not to do it.



Just brilliantly put! It's the process. All of my other hobbies share this common thread. Electronics, ham radio, cooking, photo and video, Morse code, voice over, sewing.

Yeah, for sure, I want good tools. The same ones real professionals use. 

Heavy thrift store Calphalon. Heavy metal. A couple bucks each. Simple, sturdy, professional.

With some study, some practice, and these simple tools, I can make what costs way too much at a restaurant, and have a blast sharing the results with someone else, and enjoying them myself!

Good mics and virtual instruments are *cough* more than a couple bucks, but I'm way too old to be messing with freebies and Soundfonts anymore.


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## wblaze (Dec 5, 2020)

Thanks everyone for the comments in this thread - I'm not alone, and a lot of great ideas here!

I keep returning to music because when I'm not doing it I feel the existential angst creeping up.

When I'm engaged in a project or taking a course I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing in life. There are moments when creating that are totally "in the present moment" - I don't worry about my job, child, wife, or the news headlines.

It's also perfectly OK to spend money and time on this passion, just as others spend money and time on golf, skiing, collecting antique clocks, or travel. No need to justify or explain it, or monetize it. Sure, it feels good when I make $9 on the occasional Pond5 track, but it's more rewarding to write in my own style, even if it doesn't sell.

I still struggle with dispelling the concept that I was raised with, and common in the northeast United States, that identify comes from what one does for money. But as I get older (late 40's) it's gotten easier to enjoy creating music for it's own sake!


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 5, 2020)

wblaze said:


> I don't worry about my job, child, wife, or the news headlines.



I love how you lumped them all in the same ghastly category. Good man


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## MauroPantin (Dec 5, 2020)

I think everyone can relate, hobbyist or not since everyone's a hobbyist at some point. Everybody starts with music out of interest. I don't think there's a human being out there that went "I really want to be a lawyer, but I think I'll play it safe and become a musician". 

Music used to be my hobby, it is now my job. It's still fun for the most part, but the second money enters the equation it is less so, in my opinion. Because money is, in a way, a measure tape for the market value of an outcome. And that outcome allows you (or not) to sustain yourself, so a lot of stuff is riding on it. 

I still love music, but it is not enough to be both job and hobby for me. So I've stared up on other activities, and on those activities I've made it a point to not care about the outcome or results. If I suck, then I suck and that's okay. I do them because I enjoy the time I spend on them. They also make me a better musician, I think. There's no story to tell with music if you don't live a little IMO.


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## dzilizzi (Dec 5, 2020)

MauroPantin said:


> I think everyone can relate, hobbyist or not since everyone's a hobbyist at some point. Everybody starts with music out of interest. I don't think there's a human being out there that went "I really want to be a lawyer, but I think I'll play it safe and become a musician".
> 
> Music used to be my hobby, it is now my job. It's still fun for the most part, but the second money enters the equation it is less so, in my opinion. Because money is, in a way, a measure tape for the market value of an outcome. And that outcome allows you (or not) to sustain yourself, so a lot of stuff is riding on it.
> 
> I still love music, but it is not enough to be both job and hobby for me. So I've stared up on other activities, and on those activities I've made it a point to not care about the outcome or results. If I suck, then I suck and that's okay. I do them because I enjoy the time I spend on them. They also make me a better musician, I think. There's no story to tell with music if you don't live a little IMO.


Music is one of the last hobbies I haven't tried to make into a job. My experience so far has been that making it a job sucks the fun out of it. Granted, this could be because in most of my jobs, I would end up spending more time doing the parts I don't like and less doing the parts I like about the hobby. It would become work. 

I do think that I probably wasn't good enough at what I wanted to do, which is why I got stuck doing the crappy jobs. Kind of like going to work at a studio and spending 3 years going for coffee for everyone. And sweeping the floors after everything was done.


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## Rossy (Dec 5, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> I'm a hobbyist and even though my musical pursuits are currently going better than I'm used to (meaning I sort of kind of almost finished a track this week - almost), I still ask myself every once in a while "why am doing this?". Can some other hobbyists here relate to being in some sort of permanent existential crisis regarding their hobby and conflicted about how to allocate their time and attention?
> 
> If composing is your job, you're pretty committed I'd imagine, but us hobbyists can just turn around and walk away any time, what's keeping all you other hobbyists from doing just that? Please don't answer with the sunk-cost-fallacy of having spent $$$$ on your hobby already, that's not an intrinsic motivation in my opinion.


I was a "pop" session musician for over 20 years in my younger days but it didnt pay and so now at 54, I'm working a retail job that I despise but its the composing that keeps me going. I know there are lucky people out there that do it for a living and I too envy them but I have to admit, even though I have to save for new software, I do get lots of satisfaction out of learning to compose and I am currently taking some online classes (Thinkspace) that gives me some direction and purpose. Still waiting for Spielberg or Nolan to give me a call.


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## Michael Stibor (Dec 5, 2020)

Many of us on this forum write 'film score' style music, of which, in order for it to be truly in that style would have to be associated with a film of some kind. So by nature, we're programmed to try to make some sort of career out if it.

I can't deny that when I'm composing it sort of sits in the back of my mind like "well maybe I could sell this, or add it to my demo reel, etc.". But either way I would have written it. I'm most at peace when I'm composing. So that'll never change, and it is never a fruitless endeavour.


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## MartinH. (Dec 5, 2020)

I'm so happy how this thread has turned out! Thank you very much for all the great replies! It's wonderful to read all the different takes and motivations and seeing that these struggles are quite relatable for many. What I've experienced recently and what I can wholeheartedly recommend, is having a sort of "study budy" with whom you try to tackle a new style together and share the progress. A new challenge with a clear goal and measurable progress towards it is a good recipe for flow states and generally feeling good about what you do.

I need to sleep another night on it, but that track that I mentioned might indeed be done now. And I'm quite happy with it too - a feeling so exceedingly rare for me, I can't possibly convey how unusual this has become for me. It used to be one of the big plus points for spending my time making music, that it had a decent enough chance of me ending up with something that I genuinely enjoy listening too. But over the years for a number of reasons, some of which I don't understand, I got less and less happy with my music. My output measured in number of finished tracks never was high, but I was getting damn close to 0/year recently, and I felt like my work was getting worse than what I made ~10 years ago. I hope I can find a way to raise that number of tracks that I can call "finished" instead of "abandoned" and be happy with a higher ratio of my pieces again.


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## Frederick (Dec 5, 2020)

I'm just at it for 8 months or so and I don't compose myself. Why torture myself and others with bad to mediocre compositions at best, right? Therefore I just do mockups and every single time I sit behind my keyboard I'm in awe about having the power of the orchestra at my fingertips. That I can have a flute solo, followed by an oboe, a horn and then the full strings filling up the room. Building up a crescendo, shorts, then tremelo, then longs... All the different textures, etc...

I've been in love with film music since I was about 10 years old, when I bought my first OST: Sandokan. My early heroes were the usual suspects like James Horner, Ennio Morricone, John Williams, John barry and Jerry Goldsmith. And now I can try to recreate their music in (almost) all of its glory. Amazing!

So the way I like to put it: What's there not to come back to?


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## Fenicks (Dec 5, 2020)

Jimmy Hellfire said:


> That's great. Lately I've been noticing too that the whole "battle station" scenario was kind of scaring me off, and actually isn't a particularly creative or musical experience. To be honest, I' almost kinda dreading it. The computer and all these knobs, parameters, software, routings and all that shit, it totally forces your brain in this other mode of activity, the computing part. You're ultimately using software, while another part of your brain is desperately trying to be artistic somewhere underneath all the noise.
> 
> As a result, I've been constantly trying to simplify my orchestral DAW setup more and more, and I'm constantly purging stuff. Witnessing the whole Black Friday craze unfold was particularly bizzare for me this year - everyone just slavishly buying all this stuff ... it's so totally on the other side of the spectrum.
> 
> ...



I can't stop thinking about this aspect: the importance of creative space and process. I feel most inspired at my piano, which is far away from my desktop computer and MIDI keyboard. Sometimes I wish I could play with my sample libraries without being attached to my 'battle station', and I have this fantasy of being able to sit on the rug in my living room with a view of the garden while noodling with Tundra or something. It's not that producing at my desktop computer isn't inspiring but that it feels focused on the technical qualities more than the creative ones, and it's therefore easier to get sidetracked or frustrated when writing in that space. Something about a dedicated computer setup with lots of gizmos and gadgets lacks the ambiance of emotional life that is conducive to (my) songwriting.

Too bad I don't have a laptop so I can live my dream of making music in the floor. Maybe I should get one...


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## Robo Rivard (Dec 5, 2020)

As a designer who has been working in the film/comic book fields for over 35 years, to me, it all comes down to "storytelling". 

I make music (or audio collage, whatever you call it) in order to tell a story. If a piece doesn't work, most of the time, it's because it tells nothing, because nothing worthwhile is happening in the statement.

This said, no matter how much I love a piece that I find significant, I know most people won't give a damn (100% of composers are craving for attention). But you have to help yourself and post on sites and forums that crave for the kind of stuff you are making.


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## pondinthestream (Dec 5, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> As a designer who has been working in the film/comic book fields for over 35 years, to me, it all comes down to "storytelling".
> 
> I make music (or audio collage, whatever you call it) in order to tell a story. If a piece doesn't work, most of the time, it's because it tells nothing, because nothing worthwhile is happening in the statement.
> 
> This said, no matter how much I love a piece that I find significant, I know most people won't give a damn (100% of composers are craving for attention). But you have to help yourself and post on sites and forums that crave for the kind of stuff you are making.


where do you post "audio collage"? (which makes me think of the more exploratory end of radio)


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## Robo Rivard (Dec 5, 2020)

pondinthestream said:


> where do you post "audio collage"? (which makes me think of the more exploratory end of radio)


Actually, I don't do audio collage per se, but I do put a lot of SFX and preprocessed material in my pieces, trying to make them work organically with the tonal instruments. As if the audio post-production was made by the composer himself.

I guess you only have that freedom if you are a hobbyist.


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## pondinthestream (Dec 5, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> Actually, I don't do audio collage per se, but I do put a lot of SFX and preprocessed material in my pieces, trying to make them work organically with the tonal instruments. As if the audio post-production was made by the composer himself.
> 
> I guess you only have that freedom if you are a hobbyist.


thanks - and where would you post that material too?


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## Robo Rivard (Dec 5, 2020)

pondinthestream said:


> thanks - and where would you post that material too?


It depends on the source material and your interests.

If you do Fantasy stuff, you will have more success on "Dungeon & Dragons" kind of websites, rather than on V.I. Control.

You don't compose for composers, you compose for people. For mere mortals. They are the ones starving for what you have to offer.


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## pondinthestream (Dec 5, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> It depends on the source material and your interests.
> 
> If you do Fantasy stuff, you will have more success on "Dungeon & Dragons" kind of websites, rather than on V.I. Control.
> 
> You don't compose for composers, you compose for people. For mere mortals. They are the ones starving for what you have to offer.


Nice suggestion but not so easy for me I think, I compose stuff like this Hive (no relation) | greg hooper (bandcamp.com) or in a more musical style, this Lottery | greg hooper (bandcamp.com)
Both of which fit into the visual art world much more than any music world scene that I have been able to find - I do fine in the art world but would like to expand out a bit


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## Robo Rivard (Dec 5, 2020)

pondinthestream said:


> Nice suggestion but not so easy for me I think, I compose stuff like this Hive (no relation) | greg hooper (bandcamp.com) or in a more musical style, this Lottery | greg hooper (bandcamp.com)
> Both of which fit into the visual art world much more than any music world scene that I have been able to find - I do fine in the art world but would like to expand out a bit


It's up to you to find the "communities" you relate to the most. If you post in Echo Chambers and Safe Spaces, you are the only one to blame. No one can help you.


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## pondinthestream (Dec 5, 2020)

Robo Rivard said:


> It's up to you to find the "communities" you relate to the most. If you post in Echo Chambers and Safe Spaces, you are the only one to blame. No one can help you.


I think you have me confused with someone else


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## DavidRubenstein (Dec 5, 2020)

For me, it's all about improving my music. I get satisfaction when I see (or hear) slow, gradual improvements. The fun is in the journey, learning new things, new skills and techniques, and expanding the box I find myself in. Not only do I compose in my DAW; I also compose notation and get my pieces performed by amateurs in concerts. It is very rewarding to hear my music performed by live musicians (and get recordings of the concerts).


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## Arbee (Dec 5, 2020)

DavidRubenstein said:


> For me, it's all about improving my music. I get satisfaction when I see (or hear) slow, gradual improvements. The fun is in the journey, learning new things, new skills and techniques, and expanding the box I find myself in. Not only do I compose in my DAW; I also compose notation and get my pieces performed by amateurs in concerts. It is very rewarding to hear my music performed by live musicians (and get recordings of the concerts).


Exactly this, great answer!


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## ennbr (Dec 5, 2020)

Why Bother.. I realized a long time ago that music would never pay the bills and it would end up as a major expense throughout my life. Why do I bother then like many playing and making music is the way I express myself.


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## Jimmy Hellfire (Dec 5, 2020)

Fenicks said:


> Sometimes I wish I could play with my sample libraries without being attached to my 'battle station', and I have this fantasy of being able to sit on the rug in my living room with a view of the garden while noodling with Tundra or something.



This gets me all excited actually. I've been working hard in the last years and saving money wherever I could and have this dream of building a small studio space. But reading your post I realized that what I'm _actually _dreaming of is building a relaxing, cozy living room type environment with a garden view and kind of having my music stuff integrated in that somehow. Wow, food for thought ...


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## NekujaK (Dec 6, 2020)

I started making music oh so many decades ago in my teens by writing songs, trying to emulate my heroes like Bob Dylan, the Beatles, Paul Simon, and others. I did it because I had an insatiable need to express myself, and songwriting became my diary, my therapist, my way of expressing thoughts and feelings that I was either too embarassed or too awkward to convey otherwise. Many years later, when computers, DAWs and sample libraries became available, I was thrilled because now I could not only write my songs, but I could arrange and record them all on my own!

I'm grateful that my musical journey mostly revolved around songwriting, because just sitting in front of a DAW and noodling around, more often than not results in partially realized ideas, aimless meandering, unfinished tracks, and a general feeling of "what's the point". I'm not knocking it. Noodling and goofing around are an important part of the creative process, but it's not enough on its own.

The best thing to envigorate your creativity and give your music a sense of purpose is to work within an imposed structure with limitations and goals. And that's basically what a song is. Go ahead and write some lyrics and a melody, and watch how enjoyable and satisfying it is to create a musical arrangement that supports your words and melody. When self-expression is at the heart of what you do, it never feels pointless.

And if songwriting isn't your cup of tea, then try a creative exercise. A while back I composed several pieces with the following self-imposed restriction: for each piece, use nothing but 8 instances of Omnisphere, with all patches selected randomly. It was fun, challenging, and because it forced me to work with sounds and combinations of sounds I woudln't have chosen normally, it pushed my writing into new unexplored areas. Some pieces were garbage, but a few turned out okay.

I actually think it's pretty overwhelming to sit in front of a blank DAW armed with dozens of synths and libraries and try to figure out what to do with all that. Unless there's a goal or purpose (a song, movie scene, trailer, jingle, creative exercise, etc.) I'd just sit paralyzed and stare.

I've been a hobbyist for decades, but in the last 5-7 years, started to get some paying gigs as a composer, songwriter and/or mix engineer. That was only possible because no matter how badly I sucked through the years, I kept at it because I always felt like I had something to say with my music.

I'm certain that we all do.


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## b_elliott (Dec 6, 2020)

Fenicks said:


> I When I sit back and listen to whatever shitty song I've written this week, I feel happy that I at least tried to create and communicate something beautiful. That's enough for me to keep going.



Nearby my music station I keep a cartoon posted to maintain perspective:






Cheers fellow vi-musicians.


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## [email protected] (Dec 6, 2020)

For me creating music is not about expressing myself but to finally be able to hear _exactly_ the music I want to listen to or I have in my head. Well, at least that's always my starting point but as we all know. The longer we work on a piece the more it strives away from the original thought, which I think is completely okay! And there are many rewarding moments during this: When you finally nailed down a chord progression, when you tried out different ways of instrumentation and finally found the correct patch!

My process normally starts with an idea which I then stretch and vary on the piano. These are wonderful moments of "pure" inspiration wich quickly lead to "work" by trying out, combining etc. Then I start writing down the ideas so that I don't forget them. My sketches contain at least melody and harmony. At some point I start recording the piece in Cubase with my sample libraries. So a huge part of the piece is already defined when I start working with samples in my DAW. 

I always get motivated and "keep on" because I remember how rewarding this can be. But sometimes I don't do anything with my libraries for months because I don't have time or focus on other things. And that's also okay. Then, when I get an idea for a new project, everything starts from the beginning - resulting in several unfinished projects.
For next year I set my goal to focus mainly on finishing those.

P.S.: Beeing a historical musicologist who is very interested into the "2nd-range" composers of the 20th century, sample libraries are also very helpful if you want to listen to a certain piece which has never been recorded yet.


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## wst3 (Dec 6, 2020)

long time (don't ask!) musician who has bounced back and forth between amateur and professional more than once.

These days music composition and production is a side gig, and sometimes still a hobby. Audio engineering is my day gig.

I do not think I have wondered "why bother" in nearly 40 years. While my circumstances led me in a direction somewhat different than music, it remains something that I enjoy, and something I have to do. If that doesn't make sense try stepping away for a bit... I suspect you'll understand.

Am I all that good? Probably not or I'd maybe be a little more successful, maybe.

Do I enjoy it? Absolutely. I even enjoy the freebie gigs, although I do try to limit them to a couple of local community theatres (and if you forget about doing it for exposure you might just find you get some!)

Have I risked bankruptsy over the years? I don't think so, but there were times where it felt that way, especially when I was outfitting my first studio. And over the years I have learned that cool new tools are, well, cool, but they are not absolutely necessary, and sometimes they can be a distraction. Could I create a more realistic mockup with library X? I'll never know<G>. Do I know all the libraries and plugins I own now inside and out? Not likely.

So, no, I don't wonder, and I consider myself fortunate. I really hope you reach that point too!!


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## JohnG (Dec 6, 2020)

Fenicks said:


> I have this fantasy of being able to sit on the rug in my living room with a view of the garden while noodling with Tundra or something.



Does anyone know if there is a usable wireless midi keyboard? Not too heavy?

I guess to sit on the floor or across the room you'd also need wireless start/stop/record/rewind buttons, but some keyboards (maybe NI?) have those built in, albeit not for every DAW.


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## David Cuny (Dec 6, 2020)

JohnG said:


> Does anyone know if there is a usable wireless midi keyboard? Not too heavy?


This setup will work to make a wireless MIDI keyboard:




The recharger will supply power for the MIDI keyboard as well as the WIDI transmitter. How heavy it is depends on how large a battery pack you want to use.

I've got a USB EWI, so I hooked it up to my USB keyboard, and it worked fine. I put velcro on the side of the keyboard and the battery pack to hold things in place. I'd intended to use it for live performance (no wires to trip over) but never got around to trying that out.

If you go too far, you'll occasionally get hung notes. That's how you know you're too far away.


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## Stringtree (Dec 6, 2020)

I have a few 10' USB cables. Some gear draws little current and works fine. MIDI keyboard sure does.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 6, 2020)

Stringtree said:


> A friend of mine said he hasn't played keyboard lately because he has to go turn the computer on. That struck me as a stupid attitude I, myself, had, so it led me to get out of the rut.



This is pretty much why I recently bought a Roland MC-101 plus Arturia Keystep. All battery powered. I can just play and come up with stuff and not worry about the "production" until (if) I import it back into the battle station.


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## dcoscina (Dec 6, 2020)

I felt like that when I was training in martial arts for over a decade. Sometimes I asked myself what the point was. I never would be able to use it in a practical situation (well, without serious consequences) and it was a lot of hard work- and with several injuries too (broke 2 fingers, Achilles tear, Rotator cuff tears). 

With music, nope, I've never felt that way. I do it because I don't know how to do anything else.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 6, 2020)

(Also a long-time martial-arts student here, and in it for the mental/spiritual benefits, which are very obvious to me, as well as just having an _interesting _form of physical exercise to do.)


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## dcoscina (Dec 6, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> (Also a long-time martial-arts student here, and in it for the mental/spiritual benefits, which are very obvious to me, as well as just having an _interesting _form of physical exercise to do.)


yeah I'm bummed about not training. I wanted to get into Judo or JJ before the lockdown. So much for that.. My avatar will tell you what I trained in for a decade..

EDIT- I could get back into Wado but our club basically disband. I could review the Pinan series kara and oyo gumite but so much of this style of Karate (some would even debate its classification as being more JJJ with atemi waza than Karate) was so interactive that a lot of that is lost when solo training.


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## antames (Dec 6, 2020)

You need pressure. The feeling of pressure under a deadline is what keeps us all on track. While it is fun to create music, we don't make music to put it away in a cupboard. Sure, not everything we make is going to be heard by the public, but ultimately, we want our stuff to be listened to and enjoyed by others. Get your music out there. For example, set yourself a task or goal that you must meet - it could be you start a music YouTube channel and you make a track once a week and upload it to that channel; or, maybe you create a 10 track music sample pack and post it to the Unreal Engine or Unity marketplace to be discovered by other developers. Whatever it is, giving yourself a project will make you accountable and more likely to stay the course. If you don't have anything to aspire towards you will be in a kind of endless floating limbo land, not really progressing or moving forward.


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## pondinthestream (Dec 7, 2020)

SupremeFist said:


> (Also a long-time martial-arts student here, and in it for the mental/spiritual benefits, which are very obvious to me, as well as just having an _interesting _form of physical exercise to do.)


Tai chi for me - just started helping my teacher make a video course last week, another morning shoot today.


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## Braveheart (Dec 7, 2020)

I have spent years trying to compose, getting stuck in a middle or a beginning of a song, buying plugins and libraries to be at pro-level gear now.

Then I took a break from it, almost a year during 2020. I started to sing extensively inside the Smule singing app with people from around the world, making friends with really talented singers, having upcoming musical ideas with them.

At least, all these years of musical searching now have a purpose. I’ll use those tools for making music with people I now consider friends, instead of struggling alone by my own.


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## SupremeFist (Dec 7, 2020)

pondinthestream said:


> Tai chi for me - just started helping my teacher make a video course last week, another morning shoot today.


taijiquan for me too brother (or sister), hence my username!


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## MartinH. (Dec 8, 2020)

@José Herring: in another thread you wrote: 



José Herring said:


> Nah, no more music on VI control. I've learned my lesson .



I thought that's interesting. I still like the track that I finished this week and I wondered whether I should bother posting it here or not. The most likely outcome is I post it, get 0 replies, and I'm left to wonder whether it's _that _bad or whether it's generally pointless posting tracks here. So far I've shared it with 3 other people, which is already more than for most things I make. 
What are your thoughts on this if you don't mind me asking?


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## Reid Rosefelt (Dec 8, 2020)

Fenicks said:


> I can't stop thinking about this aspect: the importance of creative space and process. I feel most inspired at my piano, which is far away from my desktop computer and MIDI keyboard. Sometimes I wish I could play with my sample libraries without being attached to my 'battle station', and I have this fantasy of being able to sit on the rug in my living room with a view of the garden while noodling with Tundra or something. It's not that producing at my desktop computer isn't inspiring but that it feels focused on the technical qualities more than the creative ones, and it's therefore easier to get sidetracked or frustrated when writing in that space. Something about a dedicated computer setup with lots of gizmos and gadgets lacks the ambiance of emotional life that is conducive to (my) songwriting.
> 
> Too bad I don't have a laptop so I can live my dream of making music in the floor. Maybe I should get one...


That's pretty much exactly what brought me back to recording music after a pretty long absence. I found the whole deal of setting up the DAW and the microphones and everything before I could get going... it stopped me in my tracks for quite a while. 

One day I started making music on my iPad. Plenty of synths and virtual instruments and DAWs. I just sat on my bed and plugged my guitar into my iPad. I could sing anywhere in the house I could take the mic. I got a little keyboard and played it into my iPad on the couch or bed or anywhere I wanted. I discovered the Audiobus forum and lots of people pursuing this too. 

Eventually, I outgrew it. It was easy in a way, but also crazy difficult to make the kind of music I wanted with a tiny allotment of memory. I went back to my computer. But the iPad got me going again. I wonder if I would be here today if it wasn't for my iPad. 

You can make music anywhere. Korg Gadget is amazing. And with an iPad DAW like Cubasis, you can take your tracks back to Cubase and finish them.


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## José Herring (Dec 8, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> @José Herring: in another thread you wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a mixed bag. Personally if it is of benefit to you then do it. I use to post things looking for help in certain areas and while I did get some positive feedback it just generally resulted in a bunch of vitriol. Maybe some of it was deserved sure who's perfect but didn't find it particularly helpful. 

On the other hand I've gotten tremendous help posting asking for mixing advice not in member's composition forums and even better help doing mockups of other people's music to compare libraries, ect.. 

The thing that changed it for me is that one day I posted a piece and on one page I got praised and on the next page I was being called the biggest amateur hack that ever dare post anything. Yet, I played that same track for a director of a film and he couldn't stop bopping his head with a big smile in approval. I got that job and since some of my mockups have ended up in major motion picture scores when I use to ghost compose.

So I like what I like and I hear things differently than a lot of people, thus for my purposes I just didn't find the activity of posting my music worth the effort.


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## Beans (Dec 9, 2020)

José Herring said:


> I use to post things looking for help in certain areas and while I did get some positive feedback it just generally resulted in a bunch of vitriol. Maybe some of it was deserved sure who's perfect but didn't find it particularly helpful.



I will never post original music here, and I rarely comment on member compositions. I'm not looking for feedback from more people like me. It's too much to sift through.

As I said before, however, I will gladly find people whom I respect and offer to pay for the use of their ears. 

I've done so about eight or so times this year. I've made my asks based on people who write in a style similar to what I was practicing at the time, usually finding them via official library demos or their YouTube channels.

I actually haven't gotten a single "no" so far.


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## shponglefan (Dec 9, 2020)

MartinH. said:


> If composing is your job, you're pretty committed I'd imagine, but us hobbyists can just turn around and walk away any time, what's keeping all you other hobbyists from doing just that?



For me it comes down to three things:

1. I love a challenge.​​2. I love learning.​​3. I have an unyielding desire to create.​​Learning to play and compose music is a never-ending challenge as there really is no true end goal. I simply want to get as good as I can (at least to the equivalent of a 'professional' level one day) and make music I am happy with.


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## Bluemount Score (Dec 9, 2020)

1. Nobody _really_ cares about my music
2. I'm never gonna make a living out of it (probably)
3. Everything I compose has probably been composed before, but in better form

*BUT:*



asherpope said:


> It's fun to make stuff?



*AND:*


shponglefan said:


> 1. I love a challenge.
> 
> 2. I love learning.
> 
> 3. I have an unyielding desire to create.


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