# Film music: working/work-flow methods



## peterspiano (Nov 24, 2013)

Dear fellow composers!

So, i'm rather curious to know what are the steps/what is your workflow, that you take in regards to writing music for film. Do you sketch out ideas on paper at a piano and then go to a computer and work in a DAW/Sequencer? Do you go straight to a DAW? Does anyone like writing in Sibelius/Finale? Do you ever work in Sibelius/Finale and then export into a DAW or do you go straight to the DAW? Which are your DAWs of preference and why? Does anyone use temp music on things they are scoring first?..To try and see what could work for a scene? Provided you AREN'T already given a video with a temp score on it - are there any composers who use temps themselves to see what could work for a scene? And if you DO do this, does anyone go to the bother of trying to ‘analyse’ the temp music...try and find the actual scores on the internet and analyse them...or transcribe what you are hearing and analyse this? I am sure there are a lot of different approaches to going about writing music for films and i'd be very interested to hear what anyone else would like to share!

In regards to the technical side, I personally use Logic X and find the learning curve to be a bit steep sometimes. I've been using Logic from version 6 and am not entirely sure that Apples acquisition of Emagic's Logic a few years ago was really a positive step for the sequencer. That being said, i come from a classical music background and perhaps for this reason feel more at home with software more aimed at notes and staves rather than at music 'programming' per se. I find Sibelius to be a true dream when it comes to composing and arranging. Whether it be writing for solo piano, or for an orchestral setting I find that the handling of the Staves and Notes and Performance indications to be truly phenomenal. What it does lack though is it's ability to use external sounds in a way like any DAW (ok..i've only had experience with Logic 6,7,8 and 10). Using effects and being very precise with timing and internal cabling is a nightmare with Sibelius 7 since it's internal mixer feels it knows best and does the cabling FOR you..

I guess it depends on what the final outcome of your work is supposed to be...ie...if you're going to have your music recorded by real musicians then there is some sense to working with a music notation program. I personally find working with Logic X to be a bit of a pain in the backside because the Score Window is lacking in the ability to hide the staves which are not used. I find 'score set's' to be a rather poor excuse for that feature (which you find in Sibelius and i'd assume also in finale.) Yes, you can only see the staves that you want, but you first have to create a score set for that particular group of staves in advance. If you are continuously changing what staves you want to see then before you know it you'll have a score-set group of 100 different score-sets.

Well...i'd be very interested to hear some tips and thoughts about your workflows! What are your general steps towards getting music recorded for film, or theater or what-have-you projects. Please do also share any recommendations you might have about other Sequencers...Cubase, Digital Performer, Pro Tools...I might end up changing one of these days to another DAW.

many thanks in advance for your time and contributions!

Peter


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## dgburns (Nov 24, 2013)

You know,I think everyone here will give you a different take on all this.I'm not sure there is any one right way to get to the finish line.
Let's say you are talking about scoring a film.Well,maybe you have worked with the director before.I would think that the two of you would likely choose to go at it the way you did before,or at least in the manner that worked best before.That can be a very personal thing.I find relating to the director on a personal level means that the way they understand and use music will factor in highly.Some directors are highly attuned musically,and write into the script music notes,beats what have you,and some directors are scared stiff of music and how it relates to the visuals.Somewhere in the mix,you find a balance of how to talk about all this in a way that makes sense.I say all this because no amount of composing on your part will move forward without a framework of how to exchange ideas.I've found that if you work early enough on in the project,the music can influence other dimensions of the film,such as editing,flow and giving the other post folks something to work on or exchange ideas with.Many times I would have liked to know what the sfx guys were cooking up,so we were going sonically in the same direction.Sometimes when the elements come together in the mix,stuff might collide on a sonic level and it lessens the overall effort.
In the last ten years ,I've made a point of analyzing just about every film,tv show that has come out that I could get my hands on.I study the instrumentation,point of view,where music went in,maybe more importantly,where it was not,and find it an endless study of interest.Somewhere in knowing how others "size up" what moves them to score,some trends start to emerge.Some composers go their own way,some follow larger sound trends.Both have their merit.It is important to know the current context to be able to understand how your score will be interpreted,otherwise you may not have your ideas understood.or they may not support the film/tv show as you intended.
I find John Williams' explanation(somewhere in another recent thread) to be very insightful because ultimately he answers the questions you pose here.He'll throw about ideas that are floating around,and takes several stabs at them,and rejects quite a few until the "idea" reveals itself to him.Now,he works in a motif and thematic way,so having motifs is the building block to work from.I'm a fan these days of non-thematic score,and I've tried as much as possible to avoid revealing overt melody too much,and try to do the John Powell thing of trying to progress the ideas as the score moves along.So you can start with one approach and end up revealing an entirely new approach by film end.Dangerous to do without consent and approval from above,but fun if you can pull out off and it serves the film/tv show.
For me,sound palette is the biggest challenge.I find it so hard to round up and organize a philosophy and collection of fresh new sounds to lock in the sonic space the project will carry.I find it gets harder as I go along.Too many choices out there,and many are simply not really original(at least to me).
I work in Logic 9,and mostly do the scores myself.So it means writing and going for a finished sound nearly at the same time.If you know you have some players involved,I would find myself thinking about how they play,and I think I would write parts I think they would enjoy playing,and also understanding from a phrasing point of view.Now,if you work well with a director,you could just play piano parts,or even crappy midi stuff,and replacing with the players would be not a problem,but if you need to sell the ideas first,it makes sense to mock up as well as you can so the director has little to imagine,it's all there for him/her to hear,minus the magic the players bring.
I have sometimes found that players will make me feel I should have written parts with more attention to the phrasing and little details.Sometimes in midi,you can find yourself letting the samples steer you towards straighter lines because they sound better in midi.I guess if you have better foresight,you can write the lines with more finesse.I'm always thinking about "how will this sound when played?" and I've found myself sometimes simplifying the ideas so I can get through the cues without any players having difficult fingering and breathing issues.That can take up a lot of time in record if not tended to early on.
sorry for the book.I'm sure many here could espouse much better than me on the subject.
-best
david


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## JimVMusic (Nov 24, 2013)

Hi I answered below...

_Do you sketch out ideas on paper at a piano and then go to a computer and work in a DAW/Sequencer? _

I used to do this but now do everything in CPU, sketching in Sibelius. If I'm composing in Logic only, (speed composing) I use screen capture to take pictures (and make pdfs) of themes so I have them for other cues.

_Do you go straight to a DAW? _

If speed is the priority yes, but I find this method causes me to have to compose "blind" so time willing, I prefer to separate the composition process from the orchestration/production process, writing everything out in Sibelius and then fleshing it out with sounds etc.

I find I feel more satisfied compositionally this way. It takes way longer so if I have budget (sometimes even if I don't) I'll hire "score programmers" and then I get the best of both worlds.

_Does anyone like writing in Sibelius/Finale?_

I compose in Sibelius most of the time.


_ Do you ever work in Sibelius/Finale and then export into a DAW or do you go straight to the DAW?_ 

Used to, but now have developed a system of leaving the "note info" in Sibelius. I "Rewire" Sibelius to Logic and use Logic for the controller data to add expression etc.. The data from both programs are then merged using Bidule and sent to various sampler instruments. I am still streamlining this but its coming along. 

_Which are your DAWs of preference and why?_

Logic/Sibelius, the one I currently know best. Logic's "Bounce in place is particularly important to me." Abelton Live, because it causes me to think differently. 

_ Does anyone use temp music on things they are scoring first?..To try and see what could work for a scene?_

If the temp is on the video I try to get understand what it is doing "dramatically." 

_Provided you AREN'T already given a video with a temp score on it - are there any composers who use temps themselves to see what could work for a scene? _

Yes, especially if I'm drawing a blank and running out of time. Usually if Im doing this I'm just needle dropping songs, score, classical against the picture and looking for "happy accidents" that inspire me. Also, this is quick way to see what doesn't work.

_And if you DO do this, does anyone go to the bother of trying to ‘analyse’ the temp music...try and find the actual scores on the internet and analyse them...or transcribe what you are hearing and analyse this?_

Usually "no" unless it's a "spoof movie" like "Scary Movie 5" where the whole thing is paying homage to pre-existing works, then yes. I find doing a quick 2-4 line sketch of the cue to be a good way to break down the DNA of the score that I am being asked to "spoof." 

I find I get the best results from paying attention to the musical language. I ask questions like: What type of scales are being used? Is the Harmony triads only or does it go beyond? This all helps me define the essence of what I'm hearing. Also noticing what is NOT being used can be helpful.

If it is a movie where there is temp but they want want an "original score" I will then use the temp just as a dramatic guide, I try to listen to it less, (so I don't get too married to it) as well. 

There's one way, Hope that helps. : )


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## peterspiano (Nov 25, 2013)

David,

thank you so much for your 'book'!!  your in detailed answer was very interesting. I'm going to look for that John Williams explanation link now. Hm...a lot of food for thought!!

Jim, thanks also for your answer 

facinating how you describe writing into Logic as 'blind'. I find it to also be the same. I'm really trying now to master the scoresets in a way which is really streamlined. I'm also putting several instruments on the same Arrange Track...ie different articulations of one instrument...so that when i use the score window i don't have 7 different Staves for Tutti Strings, but just one who's individual notes are going between 7 different midi channels. Ie i just select the notes and send them to differnt channels. I find it SOOOO difficult to look at an arrange page of 50 or so tracks....i LOOOVE a normal score page...hm...i guess i'm just old-school ^^

It's such a relief to hear that someone else finds the compositional process in Sibelius...ie...old school...with Staves and everything which belongs to this world...to be more satisfying and which produces a good end result. Importing this stuff from Sibelius into Logic can be a bit of a pain in the backside...but i do feel i can think more harmonically, thematically and well 'properly compositionally' when i work with Sibelius as opposed to Logic. With Logic i feel more and more like a sound designer...one get's so caught up with making the sounds rather than thinking about the bigger harmonic picture. 

As a matter of curiosity, how much do people rely on shorcuts for Logic and such programs? I've got a separate word document that i have often open on my laptop next to my mac pro with important shortcuts for Logic and Sibelius. They're all organized per topic... General, View, Navigation, Playback/Record, Notation, Automation, Favorite Screensets. 

i've still got a long way to go, so i guess sometimes analyzing things probably more than you...is extra useful to me... 

thanks so much for your answers!! if anyone feels inclined to add something here i'd be very interested to hear any more pointers!! 

very best regards!! 

Peter


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## peterspiano (Nov 25, 2013)

david,
were you refering to this article?

http://entertainment.inquirer.net/12109 ... z2kyl77lPG


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## dgburns (Nov 25, 2013)

yes it is.isn't he just a wonderful human being that JW.

btw-whatever you do,if it works,by all means,keep doing it.


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## JimVMusic (Nov 26, 2013)

I find "Keyboard Maestro" to be very helpful in consolidating the short cuts/ and screen sets into "task specific" multi step macros. It's pretty easy to get the hang of.

Then you can design patterns that are easier to remember. For instance I consider the "command" key to equal "up or plus" and "option" to equal "down or minus." Then one can set up things like- Command F1= do all of the steps to transposes selection up one 1/2 step. 

Option F1 = transpose down a half step, 

Command F2 = transpose selection up 2 half steps etc.

Option F9 might lower the velocity or something else.

I still need an excel file nearby. But these types of patterns make it so I don't have to look as often.


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## Gabriel2013 (Nov 26, 2013)

JimVMusic @ Sun Nov 24 said:


> _ Do you ever work in Sibelius/Finale and then export into a DAW or do you go straight to the DAW?_
> 
> Used to, but now have developed a system of leaving the "note info" in Sibelius. I "Rewire" Sibelius to Logic and use Logic for the controller data to add expression etc.. The data from both programs are then merged using Bidule and sent to various sampler instruments. I am still streamlining this but its coming along.



Hi Jim,

Can you elaborate more on how do you achieve this.
I am also interested in using Sibelius just for "note info" and use a DAW to control all the other data.

Cheers


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## JimVMusic (Nov 27, 2013)

Here are the concepts/elements:

My method is done via midi info. I use Midi over LAN to communicate with external PCs etc. Sibelius is not addressing any AUs/VSTs directly. It's just sending midi. To accomplish this in Sibelius one will need to set up a external midi instrument/ manual sound sets in the Playback Devices for each "staff" 

I also use Sibelius to send the "program changes" and "key switches" based on text and lines. I spent quite a bit of time familiarizing myself with the way Sibelius handles midi, what it can and can't send out. There is info on all of this in manual. It will help to understand how the playback dictionary works as well.

For every Instrument/Lane in Sibelius, there is a matching one in Logic. 

Now, all of the midi from both these programs will need to be merged so it all needs to pass through a third program before actually arriving at the various Instruments. This third program will act as the "combiner, router" as well as the "midi effects unit" I am using Bidule for this. I do recommend checking out Brian Wherry's TransMIDIfier as it might offer a very straight forward solution as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etp8VP_KVBM

I hope this helps at least get you started![/quote]


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## peterspiano (Nov 27, 2013)

Jim,
thanks so much for your in detail descrption of keyboard maestro and even more so your description of Sibelius/Lan/Midi. Wow…sounds like a good idea! I might try that out one of these days 

David,
yes, JW is truly wonderful 

really enjoying listening to your thoughts and pointers!! many thanks and I’ll definately continue to read this thread!!!

cheers

Peter


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## Gabriel2013 (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks Jim,

Just one more question if you don´t mind.

When you "Rewire" Sibelius to Logic do you Sync the tempo between the two or just sync the position of the score with the DAW?


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## JimVMusic (Nov 29, 2013)

To Gabriel2013:

So I don't have to maintain two tempo maps, I have Logic handling all tempo changes and Sibelius follows Logic (i.e. no temp changes).


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