# Gibson Brands ceases development on all Cakewalk products



## ceemusic (Nov 21, 2017)

Unfortunate but I saw the handwriting on the wall a few years ago. 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Gibson-Announcement


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

Motherfudsdkjfisjdfaqakjalsogeosngbvjsadakjsdfkj.

...


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## patrick76 (Nov 21, 2017)

I don't use cakewalk, but I hate Gibson. Opcode, Cakewalk, wtf


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

Fond memories of the day they f'ed us Opcode users!

Hope you guys can find a good daw to work with and long term development and support.


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## ceemusic (Nov 21, 2017)

I switched to Cubase a few years ago. It wasn't that difficult, just had to 'unlearn' old habits. Did the same with Reaper & Studio One too..always good to have a few back-up plans.


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## rrichard63 (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm having a hard time believing that they decided not to sell the brand to someone else. Is the Sonar user base declining? If not, just closing the doors doesn't make financial sense.

Sonar is ranked 8th in the Music Radar reader survey on DAWs.

I predict that a buyer turns up in the next few months. FULL DISCLOSURE: my predictions are frequently wrong.


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Fond memories of the day they f'ed us Opcode users!


Yup me too. Not counting the days of DOS I've only ever used two DAWs... Vision and Sonar.


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 21, 2017)

I started with Cakewalk back when it came on floppy's. Sad to see this happen but you could tell it was coming. Happy Cubase user here...


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## Sears Poncho (Nov 21, 2017)

I go back to Pro audio 8. Bummer.


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## pmcrockett (Nov 21, 2017)

This explains why I haven't seen any Black Friday announcements from Cakewalk.

Here's the Cakewalk forum link for the announcement: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Cakewalk-Announcement-m3687511.aspx
Not much there that isn't present in the OP link, though people are saying that Gibson is in pretty bad financial shape.


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## 8noise (Nov 21, 2017)

really sad news.
Cakewalk express was my first DAW.


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

What are the alternatives for you guys btw ? Cubase, Reaper, PT, Ableton, and .............. ?

Do you think they might make the Cakewalk code available to github for ie for further community development perhaps ?


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## pmcrockett (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> What are the alternatives for you guys btw ? Cubase, Reaper, PT, Ableton, and .............. ?
> 
> Do you think they might make the Cakewalk code available to github for ie for further community development perhaps ?


I doubt it. I imagine Gibson would be more likely to sell Cakewalk for pennies on the dollar just to get something back rather than completely destroying any value it has by opensourcing its assets, particularly if Gibson is in the dire financial straits that people are saying.


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

Can we send in Cruise to get the Vision code out in time? 



pmcrockett said:


> I doubt it. I imagine Gibson would be more likely to sell Cakewalk for pennies on the dollar just to get something back rather than completely destroying any value it has by opensourcing its assets, particularly if Gibson is in the dire financial straits that people are saying.


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## Mystic (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm floored and I'm pissed off beyond belief. It's always been an uphill battle for Cakewalk and in the past few years, they were making leaps and bounds. Sonar has been the strongest product it's ever been and a true joy to use. Then Gibson goes and kicks them in the nuts when things are going so well. Their support and updates have really become the game changer with putting out monthly updates.

I honestly have no idea what comes next. Sonar will work for a while but eventually we'll need to move to something that has ongoing support. I'm in such shock right now because this severely does a number on my business with having to not only worry about the product continuing to work the way I need it to, but also having to learn a new DAW the way I know Sonar.

At the very least, Gibson should sell off Cakewalk to another buyer. I know quite a few people are yelling for Microsoft to buy it because they want to build their own DAW but I don't know if it would ever happen or if Gibson would be willing to sell. I'm heartbroken for the people who have given a lot of years to the development of Sonar only to see it destroyed when it was preventable as the developers were great people to work with.


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## Hywel (Nov 21, 2017)

Possibly off topic but nevertheless relevant question to this thread...

When someone changes from one DAW to another, what do they do about the possibly years of legacy project files that could be opened in the "old" DAW but NOT in the "new"?

Hywel


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## kitekrazy (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Fond memories of the day they f'ed us Opcode users!
> 
> Hope you guys can find a good daw to work with and long term development and support.



You have to pay attention to who acquires it. When Steinberg was bought by Yamaha they were already in software development.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 21, 2017)

Acid Pro 7 still works. You'd be surprised how much stuff still works on a Windows system.


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## Jaap (Nov 21, 2017)

Hywel said:


> Possibly off topic but nevertheless relevant question to this thread...
> 
> When someone changes from one DAW to another, what do they do about the possibly years of legacy project files that could be opened in the "old" DAW but NOT in the "new"?
> 
> Hywel



After my switch from Sonar to Cubase I exported all my projects to midi and bounced every track in a project to an unprocessed WAV


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## ceemusic (Nov 21, 2017)

Jaap said:


> After my switch from Sonar to Cubase I exported all my projects to midi and bounced every track in a project to an unprocessed WAV


Same here, also using export / import OMF.


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## rrichard63 (Nov 21, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> Acid Pro 7 still works. You'd be surprised how much stuff still works on a Windows system.


And Sound Forge as well. Magix bought both of them (from Sony) and is still charging money for them.


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## Reid Rosefelt (Nov 21, 2017)

I'll stick with Sonar for awhile and save my money for Cubase.


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## SergeD (Nov 21, 2017)

I bought the last Sonar version this week-end specially because their CAL unique feature not found anywhere else. If Sonar would be dying they would not have made a big sale 3 days before this announcement. It would be unethical if not a rip-off.


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

Maybe Chillbot will acquire it.


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## Quasar (Nov 21, 2017)

It's both sad and criminal. Sonar was my first DAW, but I never connected well to it and then discovered Reaper, so it doesn't personally affect me. But I know that Cakewalk still has an active and loyal user base. Big corporations shouldn't be allowed to buy out companies and products that people like & use and then kill them. If I were Czar, this would be illegal and CEOs who violated it would go to jail.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 21, 2017)

Reaper @ $69 for a non commercial license is hard to beat.


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## AllanH (Nov 21, 2017)

What a bummer. That's a major pain to deal with. Argh!


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## AllanH (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Maybe Chillbot will acquire it.



I agree! I vote for Chillbot for boss


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

Thats what I recommend to any kids who ask which DAW to start with unless they already have garageband.



kitekrazy said:


> Reaper @ $69 for a non commercial license is hard to beat.


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## pmcrockett (Nov 21, 2017)

SergeD said:


> I bought the last Sonar version this week-end specially because their CAL unique feature not found anywhere else. If Sonar would be dying they would not have made a big sale 3 days before this announcement. It would be unethical if not a rip-off.


If you decide to move away from Sonar, Reaper's scripting can do everything CAL can and more.


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## rrichard63 (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Thats what I recommend to any kids who ask which DAW to start with unless they already have garageband.


The best Windows analog to Garageband is Acoustica Mixcraft. While Reaper is extremely powerful (and amazingly so for the money), it is not the easiest program to get started with.


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

They don't listen anyways and usually get Ableton to be cool  



rrichard63 said:


> The best Windows analog to Garageband is Acoustica Mixcraft. While Reaper is extremely powerful (and amazingly so for the money), it is not the easiest program to get started with.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 21, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> The best Windows analog to Garageband is Acoustica Mixcraft. While Reaper is extremely powerful (and amazingly so for the money), it is not the easiest program to get started with.



Mixcraft is so underrated and simple to use. My most expensive DAW is Garage Band because it came with a $400 iPad. Never use it. I hate the whole portability thing. Tracktion Waveform is a nice DAW.

Reaper could be easy if you devote yourself to it. Their biggest mistake when they started was lack of documentation.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 21, 2017)

ceemusic said:


> Same here, also using export / import OMF.



Cakewalk was a pioneer in the OMF format.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 21, 2017)

pmcrockett said:


> This explains why I haven't seen any Black Friday announcements from Cakewalk.
> 
> Here's the Cakewalk forum link for the announcement: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Cakewalk-Announcement-m3687511.aspx
> Not much there that isn't present in the OP link, though people are saying that Gibson is in pretty bad financial shape.



This is as black as you can get. Their software was on sale. I think this announcement was a surprise.


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## Mystic (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Maybe Chillbot will acquire it.









@chillbot


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## gregh (Nov 21, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> Reaper could be easy if you devote yourself to it. Their biggest mistake when they started was lack of documentation.



The documentation from Nicholas is not bad - the real problem is that reaper started out as a small program for the developer, who then shared it around and from that point on it just grew and grew and grew without any coherent design framework. Hence it gets called "the Linux of Daws". Like many others I use it, think it has great power and flexibility, but bemoan the design.


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## Sears Poncho (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> What are the alternatives for you guys btw ? Cubase, Reaper, PT, Ableton, and .............. ?



PT is a good program. Avid is a rotten company. I'm a hardcore Sibelius user and I've seen just how poorly Avid thinks of its customers. Regardless, that may (or may not) be the program I'd jump ship to.

Idea for one of the big DAW makers: make a crossgrade offer to Sonar users, or remind them if you currently have one. You'll have your best quarter ever. Reality is starting to set in- not only is Gibson a crappy company but they can't be trusted, so people are probably looking at new DAWs. Cakewalk users were loyal, and having loyal customers flock to a different company has to be valuable.


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## Mystic (Nov 21, 2017)

A lot of people have been talking over on the Cakewalk forums about Studio One but I don't know much about the company.

I'm not ready to jump ship at this point. Even if updates stop, it's not going to make the DAW unusable or unstable for a long time coming. I'm comfortable in Sonar and I am willing to wait and see before I jump into a new pond.


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## Sears Poncho (Nov 21, 2017)

I think Cubase has a $99 entry level program. I would consider something like that just to get to know a new program after 20 years with Cakewalk. I don't think PT does. I'm more concerned with Windows Creators updates knocking out Sonar than jumping ship.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 21, 2017)

chillbot said:


> Motherfudsdkjfisjdfaqakjalsogeosngbvjsadakjsdfkj.
> 
> ...


Cubase!


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm so happy for all of you guys in this thread who are happy with Cubase. So happy.


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Maybe Chillbot will acquire it.


Oddly, the thought had crossed my mind.


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## Ben H (Nov 21, 2017)

patrick76 said:


> I don't use cakewalk, but I hate Gibson. Opcode, Cakewalk, wtf



...Tascam! :/


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 21, 2017)

chillbot said:


> I'm so happy for all of you guys in this thread who are happy with Cubase. So happy.



Sorry, man...If my daw was in danger of falling off the cliff I'd be pissed too. To put it extremely mildly....but if you decide to go towards Cubase let me know if you need any help. I'm sure this entire forum could help you get up to speed in no time if you even needed help...


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

givemenoughrope said:


> Sorry, man...If my daw was in danger of falling off the cliff I'd be pissed too. To put it extremely mildly....but if you decide to go towards Cubase let me know if you need any help. I'm sure this entire forum could help you get up to speed in no time if you even needed help...


You're a good man Mike. It's sad to me how they have always catered to the hobbyist. I actually don't know if this has helped them or hurt them. But it's an incredibly intuitive and powerful program packaged behind a wall of bloatware and trial offers and "lite" versions. I say 'powerful' in the way that it handles video and virtually never ever crashes for me. Switching is not so easy, I've done 20,000 tracks in Sonar and I have my workflow down to where I'm measuring tracks in mouse-clicks. I've heard great things about Cubase but I'm hoping if nothing else I have a good 5 year window before I need to switch... I only update Sonar every 5 years anyway. All the "updates" are just junk I don't need, the actual software has barely changed in 20 years.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 21, 2017)

I keep meaning to ask you about seeing this in action. And actually, hearing you describe this makes me want to try Sonar!


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## steveo42 (Nov 21, 2017)

This is so sad. My heart goes out to the employees and those end users who are invested in the Sonar platform. I started with Cakewalk when Greg Hendershott was a one man operation and actually answer the phone for tech support calls. I left Cakewalk the day the first Presonus Studio One v1.0 was released and never looked back. I think after the shock wears off the users will find that they can do most everything with just about any of the DAW software out there. Time moves on.


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## Farkle (Nov 21, 2017)

ceemusic said:


> Unfortunate but I saw the handwriting on the wall a few years ago.
> http://www.cakewalk.com/Gibson-Announcement



[email protected]#($+*%&#(*&^@[email protected](*~#$&%#@#$(*^&$*@#$#*


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## Farkle (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> What are the alternatives for you guys btw ? Cubase, Reaper, PT, Ableton, and .............. ?
> 
> Do you think they might make the Cakewalk code available to github for ie for further community development perhaps ?



Probably Digital Performer for me. I used DP 5 (6?) for Wonderpets, way back when. Now that it's working on PC, I should be able to get back in the swing of things.

It might be a blessing in disguise; DP's midi handling is really solid, and its' film scoring tools are second to none.

But... Dammit, SONAR. I was using all the Nomad Blu stuff, now I have to buy that shit. And, just dropped coin on the "lifetime upgrade" thing. Big middle finger to Gibson.

Mike


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## MichaelM (Nov 21, 2017)

Sad news indeed. Been using Cakewalk since early 90s. Heck I almost applied for a job there this past summer. Glad I didn't. Will keep using until I can get my Cubase skills back up to speed. I kind of felt like Sonar Platinum finally is a pretty stable product.


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## AlexRuger (Nov 21, 2017)

Interesting that the idea for Microsoft to buy it is floating around out there. That seems to be the best case scenario. Would love to see them with their own DAW and take on Apple in that specific way.


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

Farkle said:


> Probably Digital Performer for me.


I love Digital Performer to death. Circa ~1998 or so half the school at Berklee was using DP and half was using Vision. I learned both and DP is as close as I've seen to Sonar, re: layout and intuitiveness. But... DP just moved to PC, what, 2 or 3 years ago? I know the program is solid on a mac but how much do you trust a program that's just been migrated to PC. Maybe by the time Sonar becomes outdated in 4-5 years it will be good. But also, so many of the people on here swear by Cubase it's hard to go against the grain.


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## gregh (Nov 21, 2017)

chillbot said:


> I love Digital Performer to death. Circa ~1998 or so half the school at Berklee was using DP and half was using Vision. I learned both and DP is as close as I've seen to Sonar, re: layout and intuitiveness. But... DP just moved to PC, what, 2 or 3 years ago? I know the program is solid on a mac but how much do you trust a program that's just been migrated to PC. Maybe by the time Sonar becomes outdated in 4-5 years it will be good. But also, so many of the people on here swear by Cubase it's hard to go against the grain.


i looked at DP on PC a while back but the fonts were too small for easy use - I think that is still a problem


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## AlexRuger (Nov 21, 2017)

chillbot said:


> I love Digital Performer to death. Circa ~1998 or so half the school at Berklee was using DP and half was using Vision. I learned both and DP is as close as I've seen to Sonar, re: layout and intuitiveness. But... DP just moved to PC, what, 2 or 3 years ago? I know the program is solid on a mac but how much do you trust a program that's just been migrated to PC. Maybe by the time Sonar becomes outdated in 4-5 years it will be good. But also, so many of the people on here swear by Cubase it's hard to go against the grain.


Go Cubase. No other option makes sense for you.


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## MatFluor (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm also pretty - pissed.

Having only recently jumped on Sonar, and loving it, this is very bad news. Fortunately (or unfortunately for my career) I don't have any projects going on currently, and with Black Friday coming up, this is the time to switch for me.

Yes, it will run but nobody knows for how long, and having a few issues (and one breaking issue with VEP), this is as bad as it gets. What I hate the most is the lack of information - we as consumers are not informed about the future, only thing we know is: "Development halted, servers will be shut down". No indication of time whatsoever.

My Shortlist consists of Cubase, DP and Reaper - whereas DP had a weird don't issue (blurry) that I don't know how it happened. I would've been on DP if it wasn't for that, but I got Sonar instead. Ha.


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

What do you think it would cost to buy Cakewalk? Not that I could buy it or anyone, just curious what do you imagine they are worth as a company?


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

MatFluor said:


> Having only recently jumped on Sonar, and loving it, this is very bad news. Fortunately (or unfortunately for my career) I don't have any projects going on currently, and with Black Friday coming up, this is the time to switch for me.


I'm not sure you need to switch NOW. It's not so drastic. If black friday is a switching point, there will be quite a few more before Sonar becomes obsolete, if it does. I know that I will use Sonar for a lot more years, but it's nice to know that if I need to switch I have a bit of a heads-up.

EDIT: When I was *forced* to switch last time, from 8.5 to X3e, I believe it was because of some library that needed the latest version of Kontakt, and the latest version of Kontakt wouldn't run within 8.5, and 8.5 wouldn't run on Vista or whatever I was on, and I had to switch to Win7 which my motherboard wouldn't support, I ended up buying a whole new computer because of it. I don't remember the exact details but it was a whole domino train wreck. I think I went to Platinum willingly. But anyway on this last computer build VisionDAW recommended I don't go to Win10 but I made the switch for exactly this reason. And bought a server-class machine that they swore would last me 5 years. So my hope is that as long as I can ride Win10 and they don't suddenly come out with some VST4 thing, I should be ok for a few years....


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## dathyr1 (Nov 21, 2017)

Wow this is a shocker. I just updated my Sonar last week. Have been a Cakewalk user from many years ago and recently last year jumped on board with Sonar because the things they say were coming down the pike. They say the servers will still be up but no future updates. At least I didn't join the lifetime deal but did have the entitled update subscription for a year. I also have Presonus Studio One and Acoustica Mixcraft Pro which I really iike also. As others are saying here allot of gossip over on Cakewalk site. Sonar DAW is still usable for me, just that I will miss the updates. Not sure if there are any open bug fixes, haven't had problems with what I do.

I will need to keep eye on their website and forum more now to see where this all goes. Bummer.

Dave


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## dpasdernick (Nov 21, 2017)

I went through a similar situation in the 3D world. Autodesk bought my beloved Softimage and then tanked it a few years later. 

These software's start off as someone's passion and then get swallowed up by a faceless corporation who's only passion is the bottom line. I can't blame them. Shareholders like to see profits. It still hurts like hell when it happens.

Cubase gents. It's a lovely program and Yamaha /Steinberg still seem to care about music.

Best of luck!


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

spit balling ? 250-500K for the rights perhaps ?, but the people question is a larger one. Programmers, support staff, etc.



chillbot said:


> What do you think it would cost to buy Cakewalk? Not that I could buy it or anyone, just curious what do you imagine they are worth as a company?


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> 250-500K for the rights perhaps


No way. I was thinking is it 5M, 50M, 100M? What is it worth? Just curious. If it was 500K I would f-ing buy it tomorrow. There must be some profit there.


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

I was thinking the software, then everything else extra. If you have a attorney why not ask ? If you did not want to run a business you could make it a public github project.


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## chillbot (Nov 21, 2017)

Yeah no idea. To be honest if it was in the 10M range I would actually think about trying to get the funds together from investors, but my guess is it would be way way north of 100M range to keep the company intact and pay the developers. Maybe even more than that I have zero clue, that's why I'm asking.

EDIT: no... on second thought... I have no idea I was just speculating why SOMEone wouldn't buy it? Hypothetically if I had 1M to invest in a company I could find a lot better opportunities. First thing I would do would be to try to force Sonar to be more "pro" and be a legit alternative to Cubase for PC. I think that might be the death of it.


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## Sears Poncho (Nov 21, 2017)

IIRC I think Avid paid 16 million for Sibelius.


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## synthpunk (Nov 21, 2017)

How much did Roland Sell Cakewalk to Gibson for in 2013 ?


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## kitekrazy (Nov 21, 2017)

Sears Poncho said:


> I think Cubase has a $99 entry level program. I would consider something like that just to get to know a new program after 20 years with Cakewalk. I don't think PT does. I'm more concerned with Windows Creators updates knocking out Sonar than jumping ship.



Cubase crossgrade at Sweetwater for $329. I'm not a fan of dongled DAWs.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 22, 2017)

chillbot said:


> No way. I was thinking is it 5M, 50M, 100M? What is it worth? Just curious. If it was 500K I would f-ing buy it tomorrow. There must be some profit there.



Somehow Image Line runs a profit while giving lifetime free updates and wins the Music Radar #1 DAW every year. I think some developers do better with a smaller staff. I think what hurts is Gibson hadn't a clue how to work in the software industry and they are I think a half billion in debt.
When Magix bought Sony they brought some of the staff with them.

What I hate is when a software is acquired they sometimes ruin the authorization. Sonar was very flexible and I could install it one every machine in the house. I won't buy a Magix product that use to be Sony because I don't like their authorization. I didn't use Sonar so much but I still bought upgrades because Cakewalk always had an "I trust you" attitude with the end user.


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## pixel (Nov 22, 2017)

Really sad news. Sonar was my favorite DAW before I switched to Cubase. Being taken over by big companies is almost always a death row for software. Acid is another example where once most innovative software began slow and painful death under Sony. 
But still I'm going to get Sonar Home with ComputerMusic to use it on laptop for small tasks so I don't need to juggle with elicenser. On PC it should be able to run it even after 5 to 10 years after last release


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## SergeD (Nov 22, 2017)

pmcrockett said:


> If you decide to move away from Sonar, Reaper's scripting can do everything CAL can and more.



Thanks, LUA scripting seems to work very well with Midi.


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## WindcryMusic (Nov 22, 2017)

While it has been about a decade now since I switched from Sonar to Logic (as part of a switch in computer platforms), this still makes me quite sad. My very first DAW was Cakewalk 2.0 for DOS back in the late 80's, and I stayed with them for nearly two decades, all the way up through the move to Windows and then the first several Sonar versions. The end of an era.


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## AllanH (Nov 22, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> spit balling ? 250-500K for the rights perhaps ?, but the people question is a larger one. Programmers, support staff, etc.



I think the real cost is the liability and commitments of existing licensing agreements to customers and vendors (e.g. built-in plugins). While Sonar/Cakewalk have decades of development into the product, it could be maintained by 5 to 10 engineers (if that; probably less). In my book, that places a sustaining value around 1 M at most. My guess is that Cakewalk is unprofitable or break-even at best, and as such, that's the real "cost" when factoring in license agreements, "lifetime upgrades", support, etc.

I also think that Sonar is quirky to maintain, as many of us have developed "custom habits" that Sonar is expected to support moving forward. Just visit the Sonar forums for a taste 

I think there is value in the software, but I'm not sure how to untangle it from the agreements. That's probably why Cakewalk is terminating operations as that (likely) terminates all agreements. That makes a sale of the IP more practical.

I think I could make a business of it, if there were no contractual constraints.


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## ResSerp (Nov 22, 2017)

SergeD said:


> Thanks, LUA scripting seems to work very well with Midi.



I was a huge fan of CAL. One of the reasons I chose Cubase is because of the Logical Editor. Several tutorials online, and it doesn't take much time to build your own presets, which are equal to CAL routines. You can actually do far more with the Logical Editor because you can stack the functions.


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 22, 2017)

gregh said:


> i looked at DP on PC a while back but the fonts were too small for easy use - I think that is still a problem


And don't forget the microscopic velocity flags?!?


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## danielb (Nov 22, 2017)

AAArrrhhhggg can't believe that :(  I started with cakewalk a long time ago... I still think it has some great features ...


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## bartveld (Nov 22, 2017)

O, this is so f**ed! I've seem to have used Cakewalk all my life and I have 100's of files. I don't even want to think about migrating. Which DAW would be best for someone who likes to micromanage his midi-data, schlepping around notes and pulling down or up individual velocities?


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## ohernie (Nov 22, 2017)

Thoughts ... I'm another long time Cakewalk customer that updates every 5 years. Picked up the update last month because "it was time". I haven't even bothered to download and install it yet. My immediate feeling is that, despite my age, I'd like to be locked in a room, no cameras, with the Gibson execs so I could "express myself" while we "discuss" the situation. I find it interesting that the execs at Gibson were part of CMI, another company that messed up the music instrument business. Just another case of "Harvard Business School" mentality messing things up ... again.

As far as maintaining projects goes, the 2760p laptop I'm using at my gigs goes for about $120 -$200 these days. They're 2.4ghz 2+2 core I5 with a couple of gigs of RAM and they don't take up much space. I don't see why someone couldn't keep them around as never-upgrade legacy devices. If they were "tricked out" with an SSD, full 8 gigs of RAM and external monitor you could edit on them.

I want to thank Greg Hendershott and his team of developers. It's been a good run. I'm proud to say I'm old enough to have read the first review of they products in Keyboard magazine and subsequently purchased the DOS version that launched me down this decades long path of poverty and upgrades <g>.

The two things I really want now are a list of Gibson held companies, so that I can avoid doing any business with them and eventually, a Black Friday sale on Cubase.


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## BlackDorito (Nov 22, 2017)

I'm detecting that there are some gray hairs on this forum ... people who used MPU-401's within old IBM PCs with early Cakewalk to drive gear like DX7's, FB01's, Korg M1's, Emu Proteus, etc. Those were the days. [Certainly wouldn't want to go *back* to those days ] And now, the prospect of converting hundreds of SONAR projects :(


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## ceemusic (Nov 22, 2017)

ohernie said:


> The two things I really want now are a list of Gibson held companies, so that I can avoid doing any business with them and eventually, a Black Friday sale on Cubase.



Remember they offer a Cubase crossgrade from other daw software. If they combine that with a Black Friday discount it might be a decent price.


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## ohernie (Nov 22, 2017)

BlackDorito said:


> I'm detecting that there are some gray hairs on this forum ... people who used MPU-401's within old IBM PCs with early Cakewalk to drive gear like DX7's, FB01's, Korg M1's, Emu Proteus, etc. Those were the days.(



LOL - And "no-hairs" that also used Hybrid Arts' SmpteTrack. THAT was a GREAT sequencer!


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## ColonelMarquand (Nov 22, 2017)

Actually playing synthesizers live in the studio before computers and sequencers existed. Those were the days!


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## ceemusic (Nov 22, 2017)

ColonelMarquand said:


> Actually playing synthesizers live in the studio before computers and sequencers existed. Those were the days!


Actually not even synths.; Rhodes , Wurli's & B3's-- those were the days for me...& still are!


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## Wes Antczak (Nov 22, 2017)

Another Hybrid Arts user here. I knew that program inside and out and didn't even have to think about what I was doing, meaning that it was completely second nature and the computer truly was just another instrument in the studio. Back then for me everything was midi'd and captured live to pcm and later dat. I also had Steinberg 24, which was good but didn't have as many tracks. Perhaps time to go back to Cubase. I stopped using it at version 5 because word was that it wouldn't work on Windows 10 (even though it does).


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## husker (Nov 22, 2017)

I'm one of the Sonar refugees. Trying to decide between Studio One and Cubase now. I know Sonar will continue to work for a long time, but I'm a fairly new hobbyist. I bought Sonar as my first DAW only a year or so ago, so I don't have that much time invested in it. I'm still in learning mode, so would just as soon switch DAWS now.

90% of what I do is Midi - hardware modules (Integra, Nord A1R, and Slim Phatty), and VSTis. I do very little audio. From what I read, Cubase would be the better option, but it is more expensive to crossgrade. In addition, I'm still a newbie, so I am dependent on the charity of forumites for help. The Steinberg forum seems, uh, dead.

If anyone has any suggestions between Cubase and Studio One, I'm all ears. 

My hardware is a Roland FA-08 with a Focusrite 18i20 2nd Gen, and a Motu Midi Xpress USB. I use Waves and Eventides plugins, and I use EastWest Play, Synthmaster, Komplete, Arturia V Collection, and the UVI Vintage Vault.

Thank you.


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## ceemusic (Nov 22, 2017)

Having used Cakewalk since 1994 I'd say Cubase is your best bet for midi. I prefer it's midi features over Sonar, Studio One & also Reaper. 

Just my opinion, always best to demo them for yourself. You might prefer other aspects & features of other daws over another.


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## husker (Nov 22, 2017)

Problem is there is not current Cubase demo. :(


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## ceemusic (Nov 22, 2017)

Not sure why it's not available, maybe because 9.5 was just released..IIRC one is planned
I don't know if this is still valid & you need the dongle...
https://www.steinberg.net/en/newsandevents/news/newsdetail/article/cubase-pro-85-trial-available-3528.html


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## bartveld (Nov 23, 2017)

ceemusic said:


> Not sure why it's not available, maybe because 9.5 was just released..IIRC one is planned
> I don't know if this is still valid & you need the dongle...
> https://www.steinberg.net/en/newsandevents/news/newsdetail/article/cubase-pro-85-trial-available-3528.html



Yes, you need a dongle... People are averse to a dongle. Why?


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## elpedro (Nov 23, 2017)

bartveld said:


> Yes, you need a dongle... People are averse to a dongle. Why?


Mine failed last week, I bought the upgrade from 9 to 9.5 and the license upgrade failed on the Steinberg key.my licenses are still visible, but I can't move them to other keys I have.Contacted support and the guy here in Australia says he has contacted Germany for help, that's been a week so far.My first bad experience with a dongle in 25 years....The aversion generally sets in when that happens I guess....


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## bartveld (Nov 23, 2017)

elpedro said:


> Mine failed last week, I bought the upgrade from 9 to 9.5 and the license upgrade failed on the Steinberg key.my licenses are still visible, but I can't move them to other keys I have.Contacted support and the guy here in Australia says he has contacted Germany for help, that's been a week so far.My first bad experience with a dongle in 25 years....The aversion generally sets in when that happens I guess....


One bad experience in 25 years doesn't seem too bad, however annoying it is right now.

Ok then, other subject. Does anyone have any thoughts on Pro Tools?


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## Jeremy Spencer (Nov 23, 2017)

bartveld said:


> One bad experience in 25 years doesn't seem too bad, however annoying it is right now.
> 
> Ok then, other subject. Does anyone have any thoughts on Pro Tools?



If you have never used Pro Tools, and you work with a lot of MIDI, I would steer clear. You can always try the demo and see if you like it, but I would look at alternatives. Plus, it's damn pricey. I use PT, but only for delivering the final stems to editors.


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## dathyr1 (Nov 23, 2017)

BlackDorito said:


> I'm detecting that there are some gray hairs on this forum ... people who used MPU-401's within old IBM PCs with early Cakewalk to drive gear like DX7's, FB01's, Korg M1's, Emu Proteus, etc. Those were the days. [Certainly wouldn't want to go *back* to those days ] And now, the prospect of converting hundreds of SONAR projects :(



I know what you are saying about the conversion, but still feel Sonar is a good working usable DAW unless possibly my PC computer should Crash. I am keeping my projects in Sonar format unless they are really that important or not finished projects and will be ported to my Studio One DAW, etc. I also created final audios of all finished projects that can be used/ported to anything.

Note: How about this--I still have an old XP computer that has Cakewalk Pro 9 on it that has many projects on it and I did move some of them over to Sonar. They were in .wrk file format. We used to record live sessions of our Christian band songs with Cakewalk 9 back in the 1980-90's with it. My XP computer is still going strong, even though it is dirt slow to my current computer. 

Anyway good luck in your conversions BlackDorito,

Dave


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## kitekrazy (Nov 23, 2017)

husker said:


> I'm one of the Sonar refugees. *Trying to decide between Studio One and Cubase now.* I know Sonar will continue to work for a long time, but I'm a fairly new hobbyist. I bought Sonar as my first DAW only a year or so ago, so I don't have that much time invested in it. I'm still in learning mode, so would just as soon switch DAWS now.
> 
> 90% of what I do is Midi - hardware modules (Integra, Nord A1R, and Slim Phatty), and VSTis. I do very little audio. From what I read, Cubase would be the better option, but it is more expensive to crossgrade. In addition, I'm still a newbie, so I am dependent on the charity of forumites for help. The Steinberg forum seems, uh, dead.
> 
> ...



I suggest Reaper. Search these forums and I think there is a user or two who is dropping Cubase.


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## MatFluor (Nov 23, 2017)

After testing out and writing a few cues the last two days - I'm going for Digital Performer. Somehow I feel the workflow is similar (I also own StudioOne, which is very modern and needs some work especially for film composing).

Reaper is a bit "bare bones", and I don't want another time-sink to customize and script my way to comfort. Reaper is very potent, and I've seen people using it to great success, and OTR would take the time-sink away. But I can get my hands on a good DP price - so - Do it is for me.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 23, 2017)

bartveld said:


> Yes, you need a dongle... People are averse to a dongle. Why?



Reason, FL Studio, Studio One, Sonar, Tracktion, Mixcraft, just to name a few can be installed on more than one machine without having to move a dongle. For some licensing/authorization is a factor.


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## Sears Poncho (Nov 23, 2017)

bartveld said:


> One bad experience in 25 years doesn't seem too bad, however annoying it is right now.
> 
> Ok then, other subject. Does anyone have any thoughts on Pro Tools?



For me, it's the program I am considering the most. I've always used Sonar, 20 years. I did one large project with PT, and I found it the most intuitive of any DAW I've tried (which is pretty much any DAW that has a demo). It also has notation view which is useful for me. PT is just laid out sensibly and was easy to figure out, the midi aspects didn't bother me.

That said, I really don't like Avid, and I really don't like dongles. I think we all probably have a good amount of time before we jump ship, I'll look at Cubase again. I'd be happy to never give Avid any more money....but PT is a good program so I'm hoping I gel with something else first.


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## ceemusic (Nov 23, 2017)

Just found this-

_Steinberg has decided to offer all Cakewalk Sonar Platinum and Professional customers a dedicated 50% off welcome offer on Cubase Pro. 

The crossgrade is available for a limited time at participating retailers worldwide. In Europe the crossgrade is already available today in the Steinberg Online Shop. European retailers will offer the crossgrade from Friday on. Due to Thanksgiving the crossgrade will be available in the US next week at Sweetwater and many other retailers._


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## bartveld (Nov 23, 2017)

IF I'm going to switch, and that is still a year away from now hopefully, I'm leaning towards Cubase. Having seen some video's it seems the jump from Sonar isn't too big workflow-wise. And there are some really nice features like Chord Pad and Chord Assistent. Now isn't there a Steinberg rep around here to lure us away with a nice deal?


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## ceemusic (Nov 23, 2017)

Read my post above..50% crossgrade offer for Cakewalk users.


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## bartveld (Nov 23, 2017)

ceemusic said:


> Read my post above..50% crossgrade offer for Cakewalk users.


Thanks. I think I will. It's not a year from now, but maybe it's not such a bad idea to take advantage of the price and also to be able to have Cubase and Sonar side by side for a while.


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## bartveld (Nov 23, 2017)

ceemusic said:


> Just found this-
> 
> _Steinberg has decided to offer all Cakewalk Sonar Platinum and Professional customers a dedicated 50% off welcome offer on Cubase Pro.
> 
> The crossgrade is available for a limited time at participating retailers worldwide. In Europe the crossgrade is already available today in the Steinberg Online Shop. European retailers will offer the crossgrade from Friday on. Due to Thanksgiving the crossgrade will be available in the US next week at Sweetwater and many other retailers._


Well, it says it will crossgrade with Sonar, but once you get to the verification page there's a pulldown to choose which particular crossgrade you want to use and Sonar isn't listed. So I chose crossgrade Cubase 9.5, which isn't right strictly speaking, but what the hell. Fingers crossed...


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## synthpunk (Nov 23, 2017)

Happy mac/Logic Pro guy here but I really like the look & workflow of Studio One. The one problem I hear is that it does have issues sometime with hosting certain plugins.



husker said:


> I'm one of the Sonar refugees. Trying to decide between Studio One and Cubase now. I know Sonar will continue to work for a long time, but I'm a fairly new hobbyist. I bought Sonar as my first DAW only a year or so ago, so I don't have that much time invested in it. I'm still in learning mode, so would just as soon switch DAWS now.
> 
> 90% of what I do is Midi - hardware modules (Integra, Nord A1R, and Slim Phatty), and VSTis. I do very little audio. From what I read, Cubase would be the better option, but it is more expensive to crossgrade. In addition, I'm still a newbie, so I am dependent on the charity of forumites for help. The Steinberg forum seems, uh, dead.
> 
> ...


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## Brian2112 (Nov 23, 2017)

husker said:


> I'm one of the Sonar refugees. Trying to decide between Studio One and Cubase now. I know Sonar will continue to work for a long time, but I'm a fairly new hobbyist. I bought Sonar as my first DAW only a year or so ago, so I don't have that much time invested in it. I'm still in learning mode, so would just as soon switch DAWS now.
> .



No matter what you choose, you will lose some functionality. Sonar flat out did some stuff nobody else has done (dynamic busses, load balancing, and so on), and much better freezing of tracks.
I switched to Cubase about a year ago after using Sonar forever and the transition is pretty easy. Midi editing is a little better. Cubase is a much more "musical environment" to work in I think. The biggest thing I miss so far is the ability to save "Bundle" files. One file that saves any midi, audio, vst states, track pictures, layouts, etc without spreading it out over hundreds of files to "Archive" (which in fairness, I have not tried the archive function in Cubase yet)
Anyhoo, very happy with Cubase, but pissed about the lifetime updates for Sonar I purchased not long ago. I switched to Cubase a year ago because Cakewalk support which used to be the best became the worst.
The loss of Sonar is just horrific. Decades of files and little ideas to try and rescue. Aside from making good guitars Gibson, you suck!

Btw same here FA-08 and 18i20


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## ohernie (Nov 23, 2017)

I gather you haven't talked to anyone about the quality of their guitars lately. I've been quite surprised to hear how much the pro guitar techs I know hate them.


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## givemenoughrope (Nov 23, 2017)

Brian2112 said:


> No matter what you choose, you will lose some functionality. Sonar flat out did some stuff nobody else has done (dynamic busses, load balancing, and so on), and much better freezing of tracks.
> I switched to Cubase about a year ago after using Sonar forever and the transition is pretty easy. Midi editing is a little better. Cubase is a much more "musical environment" to work in I think. The biggest thing I miss so far is the ability to save "Bundle" files. One file that saves any midi, audio, vst states, track pictures, layouts, etc without spreading it out over hundreds of files to "Archive" (which in fairness, I have not tried the archive function in Cubase yet)
> Anyhoo, very happy with Cubase, but pissed about the lifetime update I purchased not long ago. I switched to Cubase a year ago because Cakewalk support which used to be the best became the worst.
> The loss of Sonar is just horrific. Decades of files and little ideas to try and rescue. Aside from making good guitars Gibson, you suck!
> ...



What are these features you speak of? Maybe Steinberg is taking note of this thread.


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## Desire Inspires (Nov 23, 2017)

So no one here uses Reason?


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## samphony (Nov 23, 2017)

synthpunk said:


> Happy mac/Logic Pro guy here but I really like the look & workflow of Studio One. The one problem I hear is that it does have issues sometime with hosting certain plugins.


It’s a great alternative and will get missing features eventually.


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## chillbot (Nov 23, 2017)

20,000 projects in sonar (just checked). Converting is not an option. I'm still optimistic someone buys it but if not I will maintain a separate Win10 machine for the next 10 years, I don't see it as a huge deal. But I am depressed they may never fix the features I've been asking them to fix.


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## kitekrazy (Nov 23, 2017)

bartveld said:


> Well, it says it will crossgrade with Sonar, but once you get to the verification page there's a pulldown to choose which particular crossgrade you want to use and Sonar isn't listed. So I chose crossgrade Cubase 9.5, which isn't right strictly speaking, but what the hell. Fingers crossed...



I don't see this link anywhere.


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## bartveld (Nov 23, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> I don't see this link anywhere.


I can't retrieve the page where it mentioned a number of non-Steinberg programs with which they would crossgrade. I know I've seen it, but can't find it. But on this page the last option needs proof of eligibility, so I assume that's the one to use when your crossgrading from Sonar. Why would they need proof otherwise?


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## bartveld (Nov 24, 2017)

Ok then, my crossgrade has been approved! From € 579 to € 289. And this is the text I couldn't find:
*Cubase Pro 9.5 Crossgrade*
from Ableton Live Standard / Suite, Logic, Pro Tools / Pro Tools HD, Cakewalk Sonar Platinum / Professional, FL Studio Signature / Producer, Digital Performer, Studio One Professional, Reason (from version 6)


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## InLight-Tone (Nov 24, 2017)

chillbot said:


> 20,000 projects in sonar (just checked). Converting is not an option. I'm still optimistic someone buys it but if not I will maintain a separate Win10 machine for the next 10 years, I don't see it as a huge deal. But I am depressed they may never fix the features I've been asking them to fix.


20,000 projects? Holy hell man, you're a machine. I always wonder though why people save old projects from decades ago...?


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## Wes Antczak (Nov 24, 2017)

Saw this particular post on KVR:

_Hi all,_

_Steinberg has decided to offer all Cakewalk Sonar Platinum and Professional customers a dedicated 50% off welcome offer on Cubase Pro._

_The crossgrade is available for a limited time at participating retailers worldwide. In Europe the crossgrade is already available today in the Steinberg Online Shop. European retailers will offer the crossgrade from Friday on. Due to Thanksgiving the crossgrade will be available in the US next week at Sweetwater and many other retailers._

_Cheers from Hamburg,_

_Matthias_

Per another post by Matthias, it looks like the special crossgrade price will be $255 at Sweetwater beginning tomorrow., which is even cheaper than what it would cost me to upgrade from version 5.


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## husker (Nov 24, 2017)

It's actually online at SW now for $255. I just ordered it.


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## T-Funk (Nov 24, 2017)

husker said:


> It's actually online at SW now for $255. I just ordered it.



Yep. Although I am not a Sonar user, I purchased a Cubase Pro 9.5 competitive crossgrade from SweetWater as well.


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## MarcelM (Nov 24, 2017)

T-Funk said:


> Yep. Although I am not a Sonar user, I purchased a Cubase Pro 9.5 competitive crossgrade from SweetWater as well.



and that worked? some sellers might ask for proof of ownership i thought?


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## T-Funk (Nov 24, 2017)

Heroix said:


> and that worked? some sellers might ask for proof of ownership i thought?



The competitive crossgrade offer is applicable to several DAWs, not specific to Sonar. Per a KVRAudio post, a Steinberg employee stated that it was easier/faster to implement the discount for Sonar users through the normal Cubase Pro 9.5 competitive crossgrade product.

Therefore, the additional discount applied to the Cubase Pro 9.5 competitive crossgrade offer is intended to attract Sonar users. However, any person with an applicable competitor DAW license can purchase the said product.

The product page from the SweetWater website reads:

"_This is a specially priced version of Cubase Pro 9.5 for registered owners of one of the following: Ableton Live Standard/Suite, Apple Logic, Avid Pro Tools/Pro Tools HD, Cakewalk Sonar Platinum/Professional, Image-Line FL Studio Signature/Producer, MOTU Digital Performer, PreSonus Studio One Professional, or Propellerhead Reason 6+._"

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CubaseP95CG


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## MarcelM (Nov 24, 2017)

T-Funk said:


> The competitive crossgrade offer is applicable to several DAWs, not specific to Sonar. Per a KVRAudio post, a Steinberg employee stated that it was easier/faster to implement the discount for Sonar users through the normal Cubase Pro 9.5 competitive crossgrade product.
> 
> Therefore, the additional discount applied to the Cubase Pro 9.5 competitive crossgrade offer is intended to attract Sonar users. However, any person with an applicable competitor DAW license can purchase the said product.
> 
> ...



thx to clarify this. after all i would also bet they dont want a proof at all. good thing.


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## conan (Nov 24, 2017)

Heroix said:


> thx to clarify this. after all i would also bet they dont want a proof at all. good thing.


When I previously purchased my Cubase crossgrade from SW, I got an email stating that manual intervention would be required and that someone would be in contact with me shortly. I proactively replied with electronic copies of my receipt and registration for Studio One and Reason, and the license was granted.


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## dathyr1 (Nov 24, 2017)

Cubebase crossgrade sounds interesting, but I still don't like the elicenser and paying extra cost for a dongle. I know it is great protection device for Cubebase using it. This is just my own personal thoughts. I guess I am so used to all my other DAW's not needing the extra protection over the past years. I bet Cubase is a great DAW program. So good luck in your crossgrades guys. I have Presonus Studio One DAW to fall back to. I do like trying different DAW's though.

take care,
Dave


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## kitekrazy (Nov 24, 2017)

dathyr1 said:


> Cubebase crossgrade sounds interesting, but I still don't like the elicenser and paying extra cost for a dongle. I know it is great protection device for Cubebase using it. This is just my own personal thoughts. I guess I am so used to all my other DAW's not needing the extra protection over the past years. I bet Cubase is a great DAW program. So good luck in your crossgrades guys. I have Presonus Studio One DAW to fall back to. I do like trying different DAW's though.
> 
> take care,
> Dave



I can see it this way. I will use those funds for my Live 10 upgrade. I need to stop spending money on more DAWs.


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## ceemusic (Nov 25, 2017)

Just a reminder that if you plan on getting Vienna Ensemble Pro 6 that it also requires the USB eLicense + dongle.
Still using the one original I bought years ago, got it for Tascam's GVI.


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## AllanH (Nov 25, 2017)

With the Cubase cross grade at $255, I chose to get it. This is really a trivial cost in view of the learning curve and general cost of instruments and effects. This gives me some transition time until a Windows update or the lack of Cakewalk authentication servers disable Sonar.


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## MatFluor (Nov 25, 2017)

I got someone who sold his DP9.5 for a very nice price - less than the Cubase crossgrade. Else I might've jumped to cubase - but I got an unbeatable price.


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## synthpunk (Nov 25, 2017)

4:25 Cakewalk Talk


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## dathyr1 (Nov 25, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> I can see it this way. I will use those funds for my Live 10 upgrade. I need to stop spending money on more DAWs.



Hi Kitekrazy -- I recently got a couple of great discount coupons from Guitar Center over the past weeks and bought both Ableton Live Suite and today the Push 2. I have always wanted to learn this program for the styles of music I do besides the standard arrangement multitracks in DAW's. Having fun using the Push 2 with Ableton. There are a couple of preference setup questions I have about Ableton, don't know if I can ask them here in one of the categories or find an Ableton forum-have to ask Mike Greene. With getting latest Ableton, I will be getting a free upgrade to version 10 when it arrives.

Thank you Synthpunk for the video talking about Sonar and Gibson. Wasn't aware of Sonicstate.com. Are they like Twit.TV? Have to check out that website. I watch Twit.TV on tech news and PC's.

take care,
Dave


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## robgb (Nov 26, 2017)

kitekrazy said:


> Reaper @ $69 for a non commercial license is hard to beat.


That's not a non-commercial license. It's a small business license. You can use it for commercial purposes.


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## ceemusic (Nov 29, 2017)

Cubase 9.5 demo now available. If you don't have the E-Licenser try Elements.
https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/steinberg_trial_versions/cubase.html


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## ResSerp (Nov 29, 2017)

From the Cakewalk forum :

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Message-from-Don-Williams-Overture-5-Updated-m3699129.aspx

From Don Williams...

As the creator of Overture, I have been a software developer for over 30 years in the music software industry. Before Overture I wrote Master Tracks Pro and Encore. During this time I have seen several music software companies fold that I was associated with, Gibson being the culprit of two of them.
I am deeply saddened at Gibson's decision and feel bad for all of the loyal users fo so many years. If you know your Cakewalk history, Overture was published by Cakewalk in 1999-2000. I give you this background, so you'll understand this long post.

NOTE: For the record Sonar's staff view was not spun off into Overture as some have claimed on this forum. Overture was around long before Sonar and even Pro Audio 9.

To start, the people at Cakewalk, Alex, Keith, Noel, etc. worked very hard to make things work, but Gibson crippled their efforts and this is how I know first-hand.

A little over a year ago, Cakewalk approached me with the idea of putting better notation in Sonar. At that time, I told them my schedule was full for the next six months putting out fires from a newly released version of Overture 5. I had spent five years rewriting old code and due to the major rewrite, there were many issues to deal with.

Last spring two of us flew to Boston to meet with Cakewalk to worked out a deal to put very, very, good notation is Sonar and add some of my upcoming products in the Cakewalk store. The notation would contain 80% of what Overture can do and was to have full integration with Sonar. We agreed to terms, everybody walked away happy, and Cakewalk presented the deal to Gibson. After a month or so, Gibson turned it down, claiming they would have too much financial liability. After the disappointment, I met with a Cakewalk person at Summer NAMM and I agreed to worked out a new deal limiting Gibson's liability. Cakewalk liked the new deal and all of us were very excited, thinking Gibson will not turn down the new terms. To our shock Gibson said no. Cakewalk knew the importance of the deal to Sonar and was left feeling helpless. I felt bad for the guys at Cakewalk and on my own decided to help Cakewalk by offering to put a free light version in Sonar at no cost to Cakewalk or Gibson and we would sell an upgrade that provided full notation for a very small price. This was a no brainer, right. Guess what! Nothing ever happened, and I even have an alpha version working.

To move on, after reading your posts and I want to say that I understand your frustrations. I know that money is a huge concern for most musicians and having to switch to a new DAW is a very big decision. After talking to a long time Cakewalk person yesterday it was suggested that I write a post and make an offer that may help.

Right now, we are having an Epic sale through December 1st of Overture 5 for $75. This low price is in no way a reflection of problems here and Sonic Scores is not in financial trouble and I have always believed in affordable prices for good software. In fact, next year will be my best year in twenty-five years. If any of you Sonar users would like to purchase Overture 5, I will make an offer to you for $50. This is not a subscription price and is the full version.

If you have not looked at Overture 5, it is a DAW like/Notation hybrid. Within the next year we plan to add audio tracks. We release a new update everyone to three months and always include new features that were requested by the users. As for your Sonar files there is not much I can do until the audio tracks are implemented but you can export your scores as a MusicXML and import them into Overture if they contain MIDI tracks.

I apologize for the long-winded post but really wanted to you to know it hurts to see such a good company killed by gross mismanagement and that it is no way a reflection of Cakewalks’ personnel.

(EDITED: Follow the link on the forum post for the store and code. I deleted it in this copy of the post because I didn't want to break forum rules.)

Thanks for listening,
Don Williams


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## MatFluor (Nov 30, 2017)

ResSerp said:


> From the Cakewalk forum :
> 
> http://forum.cakewalk.com/Message-from-Don-Williams-Overture-5-Updated-m3699129.aspx
> 
> ...



This is quite nice of Don. I got Overture 5 with some group buy a couple of months ago.

Man, that would've been exciting to incorporate in Sonar - but well - things change.

To be fair - even though I hate using Facebook too much, I chime in every once in a while to check what's up. There have been some complaints about Don in the past, no communication for a long time after breaking updates, leading people to ask if the Facebook user group was essentially dead (which caught some reaction, but I don't think Don himself is a member of it).
Evan Evans is a big supporter and seems to be in personal contact with Don and seems to be a kind of driving force behind it. Most Facebook User Group complaints/Bug reports or question are being answered by him, and he seems to relay a lot to Don.

You can think of that what you will, but I thought this is useful information in this context.

I haven't tested Overture 5 throughout (Notion gives me mostly what I need), it shows potential, so for $50 it's a steal - even if you just put it on a harddrive and forget about it for a couple of months and check back. Evan claimed to have used it for project work, others were disappointed in it.

That's all


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## Byron (Dec 2, 2017)

chillbot said:


> No way. I was thinking is it 5M, 50M, 100M? What is it worth? Just curious. If it was 500K I would f-ing buy it tomorrow. There must be some profit there.



The guy you need and need to talk to is Noel Borthwick. He is the CTO and the lead developer. He is very accessible and an all around great guy.

You would need someone from the inside. From what I heard Gibson is not really speaking to anyone about it. Noel would be a major asset and would be your guy on the inside who may be able to get you through to Gibson.


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## Mystic (Dec 2, 2017)

Byron said:


> The guy you need and need to talk to is Noel Borthwick. He is the CTO and the lead developer. He is very accessible and an all around great guy.
> 
> You would need someone from the inside. From what I heard Gibson is not really speaking to anyone about it. Noel would be a major asset and would be your guy on the inside who may be able to get you through to Gibson.


Noel has said he has no idea and it's out of his hands. Gibson is the only one who really has any idea what is going on and they are remaining quiet.


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## Byron (Dec 2, 2017)

Mystic said:


> Noel has said he has no idea and it's out of his hands. Gibson is the only one who really has any idea what is going on and they are remaining quiet.



Wow. That’s sad. I mean he was CTO. You would think they would keep him in the loop. I guess they just really wanted to nuke it. Or maybe they’ll eventually sell it off.

As far as consumer electronics focus, I saw a promo ad with Armin Van Buuren and some philips headphones. Gibson seems a bit late to the party, it’s pretty saturated.

Gibson reminds me of that person who shows up to your dinner party 2 hours late and complaining there’s no more food and the booze is gone.

It’s funny I found my original cakewalk 3.5” floppies from like 1994 with Greg Hendershott’s name on it. I decided to keep them (they even work).


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## Mystic (Dec 3, 2017)

What will happen is that Philips will release these consumer grade headphones, pay a lot of money into someone (Armin) to promo them, not sell a whole lot of them and then eventually admit defeat by closing the company... whether this happens before or after Gibson collapses and has to file Chapter 11 is the real question. heh


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## Daisser (Dec 4, 2017)

I was really sad to hear this, I'm an amatuer composer and really liked Sonar but this forces a switch. Many people are worried about a Windows update putting an end to Sonar but I'm more worried about a Kontakt, Play, Swarm, or other player sampler update doing Sonar in. You can get by for a long time without a Windows update but many libraries require the newest player version.

Logically I feel Cubase is the option to have to choose as I'm a VI person but $579 and you can't download it... ugh. I hear a lot of Sonar Users talk about Studio One but don't know much about it. I have Reaper and used in the past but wasn't a fan of its MIDI capabilities at the time... thoughts?


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## rrichard63 (Dec 4, 2017)

Daisser said:


> I was really sad to hear this, I'm an amatuer composer and really liked Sonar but this forces a switch. Many people are worried about a Windows update putting an end to Sonar but I'm more worried about a Kontakt, Play, Swarm, or other player sampler update doing Sonar in. You can get by for a long time without a Windows update but many libraries require the newest player version.
> 
> Logically I feel Cubase is the option to have to choose as I'm a VI person but $579 and you can't download it... ugh. I hear a lot of Sonar Users talk about Studio One but don't know much about it. I have Reaper and used in the past but wasn't a fan of its MIDI capabilities at the time... thoughts?


If you haven't updated Reaper in a while, you should do so, and try it again. It seems to be growing faster than any other DAW. And a lot of its disadvantages are related to the learning curve, which you may have already climbed.

There is a free teaser version of Studio One. It isn't adequate for doing real work, but might give you a good idea of the workflow and some of the features. You would have to pay close attention to the version comparison on the Presonus website, though, in order to know what you are missing.


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## Daisser (Dec 4, 2017)

rrichard63 said:


> If you haven't updated Reaper in a while, you should do so, and try it again. It seems to be growing faster than any other DAW. And a lot of its disadvantages are related to the learning curve, which you may have already climbed.
> 
> There is a free teaser version of Studio One. It isn't adequate for doing real work, but might give you a good idea of the workflow and some of the features. You would have to pay close attention to the version comparison on the Presonus website, though, in order to know what you are missing.



Very True on reaper. I setup Reamenus to fix the odd menu layout and liked the app because it was lean and fast (never crashed). I switched mostly because of the lack of a notation editor which I believe they have since added.


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## jms4th (Jan 12, 2018)

I have never forgiven Gibson for what they did to Opcode. And the saga continues... That company is like the planet-stealing aliens in 'Independence Day'. They just move from one world to another draining it of resources until it is a depleted shell... over and over again.


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## jms4th (Jan 12, 2018)

rrichard63 said:


> I'm having a hard time believing that they decided not to sell the brand to someone else. Is the Sonar user base declining? If not, just closing the doors doesn't make financial sense.


I wonder if they didn't just sell the source code?... I don't believe they are passionately committed to anything having to do with sequencers or DAWs. Not since my beloved Opcode Vision got squashed by Gibson.


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## jms4th (Jan 12, 2018)

Sears Poncho said:


> PT is a good program. Avid is a rotten company. I'm a hardcore Sibelius user and I've seen just how poorly Avid thinks of its customers.



I wholeheartedly agree with you. Sibelius user here, but ready to jump to the first product <= Sibelius complexity and limitations. Don't like Avid ever since they cynically stuck it to NuBus users back in the day.


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