# CineBrass Sonore



## Consona (Dec 17, 2019)

The CineBrass sound is just unbeatable.


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## jaketanner (Dec 17, 2019)

hard to really tell anything from this teaser. Sounds good, but too early to tell...however, Cinebrass is beloved by many, so if this is better, then it's a winner. I'd personally like to see better strings...the old ones were noisy as hell, and the legato was a bit sluggish...only a "bow-change" type.


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## goalie composer (Dec 17, 2019)

jaketanner said:


> I'd personally like to see better strings...the old ones were noisy as hell, and the legato was a bit sluggish...only a "bow-change" type.



Agreed


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## Consona (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm glad they are producing more brass. The sound is stellar but some better legato and some updates would be nice. I'm very curious about this, since 90's Retro Trumpets seems to be just 1 velocity layer so I'd like something deeply sampled. Hope Sonore will be able to handle very fast lines.


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## constaneum (Dec 18, 2019)

Consona said:


> I'm glad they are producing more brass. The sound is stellar but some better legato and some updates would be nice. I'm very curious about this, since 90's Retro Trumpets seems to be just 1 velocity layer so I'd like something deeply sampled. Hope Sonore will be able to handle very fast lines.



for just fast legato lines, i think OT excels in that. Berlin Brass and JXL Brass. Cinematic Studio Brass not too bad either for the Marcato patch but OT overall rules.


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## Zero&One (Dec 18, 2019)

Nice to hear some brass music for a change. Not brass attached to industrial compressor units pushing out 100db. My ears thank you.


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## Consona (Dec 18, 2019)

constaneum said:


> for just fast legato lines, i think OT excels in that. Berlin Brass and JXL Brass. Cinematic Studio Brass not too bad either for the Marcato patch but OT overall rules.


Mike Barry replied on Youtube that he will make a fast legato video. So we'll see how good it sounds compared to other libraries.


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## Vladimir Bulaev (Dec 18, 2019)

Another brass library again?


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## Consona (Dec 18, 2019)

I wanted to buy CSB, but was waiting for JXLB, but since I've seen this, I'm buying neither and waiting for how will this turn out. Such a roller coaster.


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## jamwerks (Dec 18, 2019)

We are going to be spoiled by having 5 dynamic layers and not want to settle for less! 

That said, Sony is probable the best sounding sampling space so glad to see them producing more!


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## Consona (Dec 18, 2019)

jamwerks said:


> We are going to be spoiled by having 5 dynamic layers and not want to settle for less!
> 
> That said, Sony is probable the best sounding sampling space so glad to see them producing more!


I don't think those 5 dynamic layers are that important, actually. CineBrass Pro has like 2 and I can do nearly everything with it. The solo instruments can get pretty soft and sweet, while 12 horns and monster brass sound absolutely over the top even without 5 dyn layers. It's Core that should have more layers since there's like 1 if I recall correctly.


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## I like music (Dec 18, 2019)

One thing to say about Cinebrass is that it _sounds_ gorgeous everytime I hear it. I don't own it, but the sound of that stage is jus stellar.


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## jamwerks (Dec 18, 2019)

Consona said:


> I don't think those 5 dynamic layers are that important, actually.


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## Sovereign (Dec 18, 2019)

Consona said:


> I don't think those 5 dynamic layers are that important, actually. CineBrass Pro has like 2 and I can do nearly everything with it. The solo instruments can get pretty soft and sweet, while 12 horns and monster brass sound absolutely over the top even without 5 dyn layers. It's Core that should have more layers since there's like 1 if I recall correctly.


Cinebrass Pro has three dynamic layers for the legatos (just checked this).


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## Consona (Dec 18, 2019)

Sovereign said:


> Cinebrass Pro has three dynamic layers for the legatos (just checked this).


Ok, good to know, thanks.


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## staypuft (Dec 18, 2019)

There´s enough good recorded material in CBC and CBP that they should just revamp Cinebrass like 8dio did with Adagio and Anthology. Not that I´m complaining about new brass in that beautiful stage....bring it on!


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## I like music (Dec 18, 2019)

staypuft said:


> There´s enough good recorded material in CBC and CBP that they should just revamp the library like 8dio did with Adagio and Anthology. Not that I´m complaining about new brass in that beautiful stage....bring it on!



Oh I see. This is _new_ brass? I thought it was an update.

Fuck me. I don't need this right now.


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## staypuft (Dec 18, 2019)

I like music said:


> Oh I see. This is _new_ brass? I thought it was an update.
> 
> Fuck me. I don't need this right now.


I think it is? At least that´s what I understood from the yt description. You got me confused now :D


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## I like music (Dec 18, 2019)

staypuft said:


> I think it is? At least that´s what I understood from the yt description. You got me confused now :D



I think you're right. A new library but the word "expand" threw me. So not an update. Curious to know if it'll include the standard instruments anew, or whether it'll be like the Berlin expansions.

Trumpet sound is loooovely.


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## tonaliszt (Dec 18, 2019)

Wow, sounds great!!

And you know I like that Star Trek music


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## rhd1607 (Dec 18, 2019)

Consona said:


> The CineBrass sound is just unbeatable.





Dammit! I just purchased Cinebrass Pro. Like literally 30 minutes before this post. Can you hook a brotha up with a loyalty discount?


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## Consona (Dec 18, 2019)

rhd1607 said:


> Dammit! I just purchased Cinebrass Pro. Like literally 30 minutes before this post. Can you hook a brotha up with a loyalty discount?


There are nice patches in CBPro, don't despair.  I think there will be some loyalty discount. I have both Core and Pro so it would be nice.


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## I like music (Dec 18, 2019)

Consona said:


> There are nice patches in CBPro, don't despair.  I think there will be some loyalty discount. I have both Core and Pro so it would be nice.



I'm suspicious that they didn't post a Wrath of Kahn demo ...


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## Hanu_H (Dec 18, 2019)

From the description of the Youtube video:

"In this exciting new expansion to the world-renowned and industry standard CineBrass library, you'll have further options with your brass instrumentation with CineBrass Sonore."

So I guess it's a add-on to the CineBrass, not a new full library. There is Sonore Horns and Trumpets in the demo, maybe it's only deeply sampled legatos?


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## RogiervG (Dec 18, 2019)

This specific demo sounds not that impressive to be honest. It's good, but not above the competition by any stretch.

Need to hear more, before i can really judge it..


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## Hanu_H (Dec 18, 2019)

RogiervG said:


> This specific demo sounds not that impressive to be honest. It's good, but not above the competition by any stretch.
> 
> Need to hear more, before i can really judge it..


I don't think there has been any brass library that is clearly above the others. That's one of the downfalls of sampling. If you know the library and how to make it shine, even the older libraries sound great. I still think that CineBrass, Hollywood Brass, etc sound really good and not far from the more recent libraries. It all comes down to the preferred sound and workflow. I really like the sound of the Sony, not too wet but definitely not dry.


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## nas (Dec 18, 2019)

I have both CB Core and Pro and really like the sound. I agree with @staypuft, it wold be nice to see them revamp and clean them up a bit. Perhaps consolidate and organize all the instruments into one complete library and have a more streamlined filing system. Also a few little tweaks and bug fixes - I still get stuck notes from time to time, especially with the Horns and Trombones and it gets very annoying. 

That being said, I would certainly welcome another great addition from CS to their already excellent Brass library.


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## Mike Fox (Dec 18, 2019)

I bought CBP recently and absolutely love it. It really is my favorite brass sound of everything out there. 

One reason i didn't buy JXLB or CSB is because i know I'd sorely miss that Sony stage.

I'm also still using HB for some things (especially the fx), and it easily still stands on its own two feet.


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## Wunderhorn (Dec 18, 2019)

Consona said:


> I don't think those 5 dynamic layers are that important, actually. CineBrass Pro has like 2 and I can do nearly everything with it. The solo instruments can get pretty soft and sweet, while 12 horns and monster brass sound absolutely over the top even without 5 dyn layers. It's Core that should have more layers since there's like 1 if I recall correctly.



I have to respectfully disagree. Cinebrass can do a lot, and yes, it does sound great, but soft? No, that it cannot do well at all. dynamic layers end at _mp_. Try to mock up a Mahler symphony and you'll have to EQ yourself into oblivion and still not get a decent piano or pianissimo.
That extra dynamic layer for all Core and Pro instruments is what I would like Cinesamples to add.


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## staypuft (Dec 18, 2019)

Mike Fox said:


> One reason i didn't buy JXLB or CSB is because i know I'd sorely miss that Sony stage.


And the Dennis Sands mixes are not a bad thing to have eh? I learned a lot by just listening to him...


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## Rob Elliott (Dec 19, 2019)

Ruthless - demo'ing with Goldsmith.


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## Consona (Dec 19, 2019)

Wunderhorn said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. Cinebrass can do a lot, and yes, it does sound great, but soft? No, that it cannot do well at all. dynamic layers end at _mp_. Try to mock up a Mahler symphony and you'll have to EQ yourself into oblivion and still not get a decent piano or pianissimo.
> That extra dynamic layer for all Core and Pro instruments is what I would like Cinesamples to add.


I get that. It is enough for my writing but lacks when you want to mock-up some real stuff.


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## paulmatthew (Dec 19, 2019)

Well I'm glad it wasn't the Deep Space Nine or Voyager theme because my wallet would be in some real trouble.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Dec 19, 2019)

Definitely a great sound. I think it’ll be a separate library like Descant Horn for example.


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## Consona (Dec 19, 2019)




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## Peter Satera (Dec 20, 2019)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Definitely a great sound. I think it’ll be a separate library like Descant Horn for example.


From reading, yup, it's meant to be exactly that. So it won't be an alternative to full libs. Just two extra alternatives to horns/trumpets.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Dec 20, 2019)

Not bad with faster transitions! Slightly shaky octave transition at 6 seconds, but overall sounds good to me.


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## JohnBMears (Dec 20, 2019)

Looking forward to it....odd that the channel is turned up all the way AND there is a gain plugin inserted.... wonder what the default 'level' of the patch is..... hoping to see more soon.


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## Consona (Jan 15, 2020)




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## Consona (Jan 19, 2020)




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## Consona (Jan 20, 2020)




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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 20, 2020)

Stoked!!


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## Consona (Jan 20, 2020)

Still waiting for a proper walkthrough.


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## X-Bassist (Jan 20, 2020)

Consona said:


>



Wow. First video I’ve seen completely devoted to “when you come across this problem, fix it with this performance control...” over and over. I thought I would love a library with this much control, but now it just seems like a lot to deal with. Putting in one lead line could take some serious time between performance, editing, CC adds, reverb tweaking.... oh yes, and don’t remove the reverb or it messes with the legato....

I guess I’ll have to wait and see how people get along with this. If it can product better lines then great, but it’s beginning to make me think simplier brass (Caspian?) might be a better way to go.

Edit: now that I”ve had a chance to try them side by side I’m a little underwhelmed by the horns. They don’t get very soft but they don’t do very loud either. Cinebrass has more dynamics and Cinematic Brass has even more. And although I like finally having the multiple mics on the Trumpets, the original Retro Trumpets sound a little better side by side (sound familiar Cinebrass 1.2 users?). The solo Trumpet is still the best thing about this collection. After purchasing and all this testing my goto is still CSB, then Cinebrass, then Caspian, then Sonore.


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## richardt4520 (Jan 20, 2020)

X-Bassist said:


> Wow. First video I’ve seen completely devoted to “when you come across this problem, fix it with this performance control...” over and over. I thought I would love a library with this much control, but now it just seems like a lot to deal with. Putting in one lead line could take some serious time between performance, editing, CC adds, reverb tweaking.... oh yes, and don’t remove the reverb or it messes with the legato....
> 
> I guess I’ll have to wait and see how people get along with this. If it can product better lines then great, but it’s beginning to make me think simplier brass (Caspian?) might be a better way to go.
> 
> Also it would be great for them to offer a discount for someone that owns all their other brass libraries (like me) but CS is not know for doing this unless they feel the libraries are connected. And then it’s “$50 off full price”. And during a sale? It’s “$50 off FULL PRICE”. Thanks Cinesamples! Spending thousands of dollars for their libraries doesn’t seem to sway them at all.



Cinebrass is my goto brass library because I love the sound THAT much but have to agree with all of this. And, I wish they'd fix the scripting. It is a pita to constantly look through instances of Kontakt to find the one with stuck notes to kill it when using polyphonic legato.


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## Consona (Jan 20, 2020)




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## Consona (Jan 20, 2020)




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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 21, 2020)

Looking forward to watching this.


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## richardt4520 (Jan 21, 2020)

So the trumpets are reused from 90s Retro Trumpets and they're retiring 90s RT. They sent a coupon for half off the $199 cost since I already had 90s Retro Trumpets, which appears to be more than 70% of this new library, looking at the articulations. No extra off for having Cinebrass Core or Pro. I went ahead and bought it because I love the sound of their brass more than anyone else, but feel like a chump paying for material in a library I already own. hmmm......


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 21, 2020)

richardt4520 said:


> So the trumpets are reused from 90s Retro Trumpets and they're retiring 90s RT. They sent a coupon for half off the $199 cost since I already had 90s Retro Trumpets, which appears to be more than 70% of this new library, looking at the articulations. No extra off for having Cinebrass Core or Pro. I went ahead and bought it because I love the sound of their brass more than anyone else, but feel like a chump paying for material in a library I already own. hmmm......


An interesting move. If I remember correctly, 90's RT were sold for around $149 upon release, so if the horns alone were released as a separate product now, we could anticipate around the same price. As it's bundled with the trumpets, we can think of it as buying the horns at an intro price of $99.


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## Thundercat (Jan 21, 2020)

Where did you see they are retiring 90's trumpets?


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## richardt4520 (Jan 21, 2020)

Thundercat said:


> Where did you see they are retiring 90's trumpets?


It's at the bottom of the product page:

90S RETRO TRUMPETS
90s Retro Trumpets has been discontinued. We vastly improved, remixed, expanded, and reprogrammed that content to include in CineBrass Sonore. 90s Retro Trumpets owners have been sent a coupon for Sonore (check spam please).


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## richardt4520 (Jan 21, 2020)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> An interesting move. If I remember correctly, 90's RT were sold for around $149 upon release, so if the horns alone were released as a separate product now, we could anticipate around the same price. As it's bundled with the trumpets, we can think of it as buying the horns at an intro price of $99.


True. I'm ok with it at the $99 reduced price since I really love their brass. But you're basically getting 4 Horn Articulations for that price. The rest of the articulations are the trumpets. But with the original price included in the investment, coming out to $250 for limited trumpet and horn articulations, it's not a steal by any means.


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## Thundercat (Jan 21, 2020)

richardt4520 said:


> It's at the bottom of the product page:
> 
> 90S RETRO TRUMPETS
> 90s Retro Trumpets has been discontinued. We vastly improved, remixed, expanded, and reprogrammed that content to include in CineBrass Sonore. 90s Retro Trumpets owners have been sent a coupon for Sonore (check spam please).


Missed that - thank you.


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## richardt4520 (Jan 21, 2020)

On the plus side, the trumpet tones are much improved over 90s Retro Trumpets, imo. The horns sound great too. The legato feels really smooth. Hopefully they'll port this new legato over to Cinebrass. It's really nice so far.


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## tonaliszt (Jan 21, 2020)

Hands down the best brass sound I've ever heard in samples. Wow.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 21, 2020)

Having a play through now. I’ve said this before on my 90’s Retro Trumpets review, but the first word that comes to mind when playing this library is ‘buttery’. It just flows beautifully, and the legato is basically seamless. 

No, you don’t get the uppermost dynamics where you might in Cinebrass Pro, but that’s not what Sonore’s intended purpose is. For long, soaring melodic lines played by the brass, I can’t think of another library that does this as well (perhaps CSB).


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## Thundercat (Jan 21, 2020)

I just pulled the trigger too! Downloading now...Thx for this thread OP!


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## Wunderhorn (Jan 21, 2020)

Anybody notice if the hanging notes issue from Core+Pro is still present in Sonore?


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## Henu (Jan 21, 2020)

richardt4520 said:


> 90s Retro Trumpets owners have been sent a coupon for Sonore (check spam please).



Nothing in inbox or spam. :(

EDIT: Thanks Gmail, it was actually in the _picture_ which wasn't showing as default. :D


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## Consona (Jan 21, 2020)

So, who's gonna mock-up those Horners Wrath of Khan brass lines? 


richardt4520 said:


> On the plus side, the trumpet tones are much improved over 90s Retro Trumpets, imo. The horns sound great too. The legato feels really smooth. Hopefully they'll port this new legato over to Cinebrass. It's really nice so far.


Which begs the question, should I buy Sonore or wait until the legato engine is in CB Core and Pro?..


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## Ihnoc (Jan 21, 2020)

Really like the sound and I dig where they're going from a period point of view; it's what sold me on 90s Retro Trumpets in the first place.

I'm quite disappointed that they don't provide the first horn as a separate fader as they do in the trumpets. I accept the argument that 'a solo and 3 horns would sound different' but they did such a good job with the trumpets that it seems possible. That alone reduces my interest quite a bit as it just isn't aligned with how I work now.


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## richardt4520 (Jan 22, 2020)

Consona said:


> Which begs the question, should I buy Sonore or wait until the legato engine is in CB Core and Pro?..



Sonore is just limited to a few articulations of trumpets and horns. I'd say either go ahead and get Cinebrass on sale if you like that sound or wait for it. It's as close to John Williams' brass in a box as anything and I love that sound so much. It will get you in the same ballpark if you ride the dynamics low and choose the mellower patches but Sonore is obviously better suited for the mellower stuff.

The scripting in Cinebrass can drive you nuts sometimes, though. I end up turning the legato speed all the way up and the intensity down a little because you can hear the crossfades pretty bad if you don't. And then there's the stuck notes you deal with a lot. In the few minutes I've had to play with Sonore, it doesn't appear to have that issue at all and is smooth as butter.


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 22, 2020)

Sounds very very good! Short question for those that already have it: does it have the same delay / latency as other cinesamples products? I personally only had cinestrings solo but could not adapt to its delay (as I try to play everything in) and have read that cinebrass also has this. 

(Not knocking the philosophy behind it and fully realizing the benefits for realism when the samples are cut a bit before the hitpoints - Just asking because this really sounds awesome to me and I'll buy it if the latency is bearable for fast live playing)

Thank you!


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 22, 2020)

Oxytoxine said:


> Sounds very very good! Short question for those that already have it: does it have the same delay / latency as other cinesamples products? I personally only had cinestrings solo but could not adapt to its delay (as I try to play everything in) and have read that cinebrass also has this.
> 
> (Not knocking the philosophy behind it and fully realizing the benefits for realism when the samples are cut a bit before the hitpoints - Just asking because this really sounds awesome to me and I'll buy it if the latency is bearable for fast live playing)
> 
> Thank you!


Hey there! I personally find it’s extremely playable. Minimal lag and smooth legato make it a breeze.


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## zimm83 (Jan 22, 2020)

Hy...Has this library polylegato ?
Thanks


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## Consona (Jan 22, 2020)

richardt4520 said:


> Sonore is just limited to a few articulations of trumpets and horns. I'd say either go ahead and get Cinebrass on sale if you like that sound or wait for it. It's as close to John Williams' brass in a box as anything and I love that sound so much. It will get you in the same ballpark if you ride the dynamics low and choose the mellower patches but Sonore is obviously better suited for the mellower stuff.
> 
> The scripting in Cinebrass can drive you nuts sometimes, though. I end up turning the legato speed all the way up and the intensity down a little because you can hear the crossfades pretty bad if you don't. And then there's the stuck notes you deal with a lot. In the few minutes I've had to play with Sonore, it doesn't appear to have that issue at all and is smooth as butter.


Thanks for the recommendation. I own CB Core and Pro already.  I'm just thinking if they put the next gen legato into the Core and Pro buying Sonore feels kinda pointless.

CineBrass sound is second to none. That's why I'm still hesitating buying anything else. But CSB or JXLB have way more playable and coherent patches for sure. Gonna wait for some Sonore user demos.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 22, 2020)

Consona said:


> Thanks for the recommendation. I own CB Core and Pro already.  I'm just thinking if they put the next gen legato into the Core and Pro buying Sonore feels kinda pointless.
> 
> CineBrass sound is second to none. That's why I'm still hesitating buying anything else. But CSB or JXLB have way more playable and coherent patches for sure. Gonna wait for some Sonore user demos.


I’ll be creating a track from scratch using Sonore on my YouTube channel in the next few weeks, so hopefully that will give you a better idea of how the library sounds and works in context.


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## 5Lives (Jan 22, 2020)

Curious how it compares to the JXL A4 horns.


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## Consona (Jan 22, 2020)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> I’ll be creating a track from scratch using Sonore on my YouTube channel in the next few weeks, so hopefully that will give you a better idea of how the library sounds and works in context.


Make some Williams/Horner piece, I need to know the true extent of its capabilities.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 22, 2020)

Consona said:


> Make some Williams/Horner piece, I need to know the true extent of its capabilities.


Haha, any lines you want played in now? I can try to send through some examples when I get home.


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## richardt4520 (Jan 22, 2020)

Here's a track if anyone wants to hear it in context. I used Sonore horns at the beginning and Sonore solo trumpet about midway through. The dynamic range with CC1 doesn't appear to be that broad, especially with the trumpets, which were mellow from CC1 0-almost 100 then it jumps pretty quickly to the top of the range, which made it tough to control. I ended up setting CC1 at 20 and using CC11 for dynamics.

Sea of Tranquility


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## Consona (Jan 22, 2020)

richardt4520 said:


> Here's a track if anyone wants to hear it in context. I used Sonore horns at the beginning and Sonore solo trumpet about midway through. The dynamic range with CC1 doesn't appear to be that broad, especially with the trumpets, which were mellow from CC1 0-almost 100 then it jumps pretty quickly to the top of the range, which made it tough to control. I ended up setting CC1 at 20 and using CC11 for dynamics.
> 
> Sea of Tranquility


This is why I think CB Core and Pro + next gen legato will be better than Sonore. Or CSB or JXLB, they have full dynamic range plus good legato and programming. I don't want half-ass-sampled thing with like 1 or semi-2 layers or whatever. Like when I want to go ff or fff or pp or p do I have to switch to another CineBrass product?! This is so weird. The sound is brilliant, but man, I want those CSB and JXLB style all in one patches. But those libraries does not sound as sweet as CineBrass. Drives me crazy. Why there can't be one product with no snag.

I wish CineSamples would just make their CSB equivalent, a properly sampled instruments with like 4 dyn layers and tightly programmed so it can handle all the musical phrases.

What do we have now? Core and Pro with nonuniform dyn ranges, clumsy legato and not-as-CSB tight articulations + some Sonore thing with a great legato but lacking those other things... 



ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Haha, any lines you want played in now? I can try to send through some examples when I get home.


Very generous of you, thx!

You know what mock-up I want to hear...


Spoiler














I'm wondering how do fast lines sound using Sonore vs CSB' marcato legato? If you want to make some little demos, I'd be interested in hearing that. Cheers!


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 22, 2020)

General question - have the Mikes said they're working on new scripting for the main Cinebrass products or is this conjecture?

For the solo instruments, imo they've never got as good as the original 1.0 patches in core. Legato could only be slow, there was very little dynamic range but man it sounded lovely.


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## richardt4520 (Jan 22, 2020)

Consona said:


> Drives me crazy. Why there can't be one product with no snag.


Man, I hear you loud and clear on that! haha! And I'd LOVE to hear that mockup myself!


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## MichaelBarry (Jan 22, 2020)

Mike B from Cinesamples here:

One thing I've learned after all these years of making samples is the legato starts from the first planning steps and has less to do with the actual scripting than one would think. You have to commit to a plan ahead of time, and then you need to really police the recording sessions. For example: musicians want to do A (to be idiomatic to their instrument) but you need B ... so you compromise .. and you hopefully get what is practicable and sustainable for a long session. (Consider how fatiguing it is for a musician to blast high Bb's on the trumpet over and over - this has to be built in to the plan.)

At the sessions you must constantly be listening if they are getting too loud, too marcato, too quiet - if they are crescendoing when you need non cresc. etc... In the end it's all about the audio. If you have a set of unruly audio files no amount of scripting will be able to yield it into playable legato. For this library we really paid attention to the cuivre layer in the horns - as that is a giveaway that samples are involved - so we policed that heavily (since the instruments hardly ever scale consistently over their range -aka there are bad spots, loud spots, muddy spots on all instruments of the orchestra).

For horns we sought the cinematic tradition, which is sometimes interrupted by orchestral chairs who are brought into sit first these days. Here the 1º player is the first person to get bright (cuivre) while the others stay dark but play with maximum body. (You can hear this in the Jurassic Park soundtrack). Cuivre was held in reserve - listen to 90's Goldsmith, Barry, Horner etc.. then listen to how different horns sound on the new soundtracks - stuff has changed.

For trumpets, its less about cuivre (as they don't have it) and more about playing even less than the 1º and 2º-4º contribute warmth while 1º plays more or less at a soloist's level. You too can hear this in Jurassic Park - going from a Unision to a triad you still hear about the same amount of Trumpet 1º on top. So we had to really get the players to be aware of the equation and then thoroughly police them when they get tired, or after breaks etc.. But we did learn a lot in the process and we will be applying it to new libraries going forward. I am confident this is our best legato effort to date and its the smoothest I've ever played.

So porting this over would not yield much gain in my opinion as the new legato system requires audio of a specific type to excel with. Hopefully that makes sense.

I think this cue really demonstrates the Horner style that Sonore can achieve: and its in conjunction with Cinebrass Core and Pro


I can pop up the midi file if anyone wants it but there isn't much fancy going on.

The key,as I see it, is staying in the 100 (dynamic value) or below range and popping up only when needed. I noted a comment saying someone prefers not having 100-127 be a substantial change but I really do. Like have you ever tried to push a timpani or sus. cymbal roll and it just kinda runs out of steam and your left wanting? Thats the idea behind it. If the FF layer is dragged too low (say into the cc=70) it pollutes the other layers below it during crossfading (because it is usually so timbrely different).

Anyway I kinda rant .. but I love this stuff. Make sure you are monitoring loud (but safe) and keep an ever watching eye on your overall meter - its all about gain staging.

PS I use gain plugins pretty much on every track because I find it annoying dragging CC7 shapes - I'd rather just put a -1.5db gain plugin etc.. Something I picked up on gearslutz years ago (they use a trim tool)

I also start with a +3 on the master bus just to leave some room for mastering so when i disable that I have 3 dbs reserved to work with if needed.


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## Land of Missing Parts (Jan 22, 2020)

MichaelBarry said:


> One thing I've learned after all these years of making samples is the legato starts from the first planning steps and has less to do with the actual scripting than one would think. You have to commit to a plan ahead of time, and then you need to really police the recording sessions. For example: musicians want to do A (to be idiomatic to their instrument) but you need B ... so you compromise .. and you hopefully get what is practicable and sustainable for a long session. (Consider how fatiguing it is for a musician to blast high Bb's on the trumpet over and over - this has to be built in to the plan.)


Props for sharing all of this info.


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## ScarletJerry (Jan 22, 2020)

So is the 90’s Retro Trumpet sound/legato improved in this library or is it just ported over?


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## MichaelBarry (Jan 22, 2020)

ScarletJerry said:


> So is the 90’s Retro Trumpet sound/legato improved in this library or is it just ported over?



It is almost completely redone.


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## richardt4520 (Jan 22, 2020)

Thanks for the explanation, Michael. I'm sure there is a lot of technical stuff that's being juggled around behind the scenes so it's good to hear the reasoning behind the choices that were made. Still, i love the sound of Cinebrass so much that i throw my money at every library you release like a junkie! Thank you!


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## ed buller (Jan 22, 2020)

This library is a no-brainier IMHO. Especially if you bought Retro Trumpets AND own cinebrass...It's very JW

best

ed


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## Consona (Jan 22, 2020)

MichaelBarry said:


> I think this cue really demonstrates the Horner style that Sonore can achieve: and its in conjunction with Cinebrass Core and Pro



Here's the Horner style I'm interested in.


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 23, 2020)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Hey there! I personally find it’s extremely playable. Minimal lag and smooth legato make it a breeze.



Hi Chris - thanks! 

After watching several of your helpful videos (and this is a good place to thank you for them  I trusted your opinion, went ahead and bought it. And was not disappointed - indeed very playable and smooth, great! I am in love with the horns, and although the trumpets are not as full and lack a bit in the higher dynamics, the explanation of Michael above makes a lot of sense and they will fit perfectly for many situations.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 23, 2020)

Oxytoxine said:


> Hi Chris - thanks!
> 
> After watching several of your helpful videos (and this is a good place to thank you for them  I trusted your opinion, went ahead and bought it. And was not disappointed - indeed very playable and smooth, great! I am in love with the horns, and although the trumpets are not as full and lack a bit in the higher dynamics, the explanation of Michael above makes a lot of sense and they will fit perfectly for many situations.


I’m so glad you’re enjoying the library. Thank you for your kind comments as well!


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## Mike Fox (Jan 23, 2020)

I bought Cinebrass Pro for the balls to the wall stuff, but this sounds pretty damn good too!


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## wst3 (Jan 23, 2020)

Geez, where to start.

First, nice to see you posting, no, first, wow, Sonore sounds lovely!

I like the tips you shared, I do use the +3 on output trick, but hadn't considered using audio gain or trim in the tracks. It makes sense. Gonna give it a go.

And you might be a tad modest - or spot on, but if you would share the MIDI file I'll wager there is something to be learned.

Thanks,

Bill


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 23, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> I bought Cinebrass Pro for the balls to the wall stuff, but this sounds pretty damn good too!



But it lacks the rest of the instruments that you have in Cinebrass pro  Mike, short question: is the lag acceptable for you with Cinebrass Pro? I must say I start to be hooked now with Cinebrass, I prefer this to CBS (which gives me too much lag for fast playing) although the latter is obviously much more comprehensive than Sonore


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## Mike Fox (Jan 23, 2020)

Oxytoxine said:


> But it lacks the rest of the instruments that you have in Cinebrass pro  Short question: is the lag acceptable for you with Cinebrass Pro? I must say I start to be hooked now with Cinebrass, I prefer this to CBS (which gives me too much lag for fast playing) although the latter is obviously much more comprehensive than Sonore


I honestly only use the Monster low brass, the 12 horns, and all the fx in CB Pro. Lag has never been an issue with those.


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## Oxytoxine (Jan 23, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> I honestly only use the Monster low brass, the 12 horns, and all the fx in CB Pro. Lag has never been an issue with those.



He, my wallet hoped that you would talk me out of it   

Thanks for answering! I am lusting after this earth shattering Monster Brass wall of sound, although JXL would not be amused and I need therapy for acute sample library addiction.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 23, 2020)

Oxytoxine said:


> He, my wallet hoped that you would talk me out of it
> 
> Thanks for answering! I am lusting after this earth shattering Monster Brass wall of sound, although JXL would not be amused and I need therapy for acute sample library addiction.


It really is the best thing out there for that, imo! That Sony stage is just tough to beat.


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 23, 2020)

Beautiful tone! How are the legato transitions? Cinebrass can be a bit bumpy I’ve noticed (sharp attacks on each note it seems). How does it handle quick staccatos (can it simulate double tonguing for example)?


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 23, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Beautiful tone! How are the legato transitions? Cinebrass can be a bit bumpy I’ve noticed (sharp attacks on each note it seems). How does it handle quick staccatos (can it simulate double tonguing for example)?


Legato is great! The secco staccatos are very snappy and short. I’m not sure how many round robins are included, but I would think they’re just fine for quicker playing. Not at the studio at the moment so I can’t test that out.


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## Mike Fox (Jan 23, 2020)

ChrisSiuMusic said:


> Legato is great! The secco staccatos are very snappy and short. I’m not sure how many round robins are included, but I would think they’re just fine for quicker playing. Not at the studio at the moment so I can’t test that out.


Hey Chris! You gonna do a video on this?


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## jamwerks (Jan 23, 2020)

The Sony Stage is pure gold to record Brass in. Sounds lovely !!


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 23, 2020)

Mike Fox said:


> Hey Chris! You gonna do a video on this?


Absolutely! You can quote me on it. February for sure!


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## Consona (Jan 23, 2020)

ALittleNightMusic said:


> Cinebrass can be a bit bumpy I’ve noticed


Nice euphemism. I write my CineBrass legato lines with the legato turned off. I don't want to invest into another library, I want my current libraries updated. CineBrass was never an abandonware so I hope we'll get the new legato engine for Core and Pro. And I'm willing to pay for that update. CineBrass sound is unbeatable.


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## Guy Rowland (Jan 23, 2020)

Consona said:


> CineBrass was never an abandonware so I hope we'll get the new legato engine for Core and Pro.



I think this talk of a new legato engine for CineBrass is a myth, unless someone can point me to anything different. Mike B's (excellent) post yesterday went into great detail, and essentially what makes great legato is great recordings, and there's a limit to what can be done in editing and scripting. Their horns ensemble experience does indeed suggest that it gets better each time... 6 horns pretty terrible; 12 horns way better; 2 horns better again and I suspect Sonore best of all.

To be fair, CS do describe a "next gen legato engine" in the promo material for Sonore, but I have a feeling that's a bit marketing-speak for "we really paid attention when recording and have learned from experience".

Again, if I've misunderstood or missed anything, very happy to be corrected.


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## MichaelBarry (Jan 23, 2020)

Guy (ps Hi!), you make a good point so much of sample developing is experience and trickery - it is not a straight forward process. There is new stuff going on in the legato script but it literally requires audio types we didn't even fathom yet in Cinebrass stuff.

I've never had a problem with Legato in Cinebrass
I just made this last week for example:

If you go to 40 seconds on this track you can hear four instances of it's solo horn which I think sounds pretty real (unquantized is critical of course) - I think this horn excerpt would fool at least 9/10 professional musicians - (not so much the strings I could have worked shopped them more I bet).


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## ALittleNightMusic (Jan 23, 2020)

To be fair, I may have been thinking of my CineWinds legatos! That does sound nice, Mike (and nice to see you here).


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## richardt4520 (Jan 23, 2020)

MichaelBarry said:


> I've never had a problem with Legato in Cinebrass



I don't think the legato is bad at all. It just has to be adjusted like anything else. In Cinebrass and Cinewinds, I can hear crossfading in the legato if the legato is set too slow or the intensity is too high. The fix? Just adjust them until they're appropriate for the line/tempo. That's what the controls are for, right? haha

My question is, with the polyphonic legato, I tend to get a lot of stuck notes. This has happened on Windows 7 and 10, Cubase 8, 10, and 10.5. I pretty much never have that happen with any other library. Maybe once in a blue moon. If it were just me, I'd think it was something I was doing or my system, but there have been a lot of people who've mentioned the same thing on VIC. Is there a potential fix for that with the way it's scripted or are we just out of luck? I love the sound so I'm going to continue reaching for it first regardless but thought I'd ask.


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 23, 2020)

richardt4520 said:


> I don't think the legato is bad at all. It just has to be adjusted like anything else. In Cinebrass and Cinewinds, I can hear crossfading in the legato if the legato is set too slow or the intensity is too high. The fix? Just adjust them until they're appropriate for the line/tempo. That's what the controls are for, right? haha
> 
> My question is, with the polyphonic legato, I tend to get a lot of stuck notes. This has happened on Windows 7 and 10, Cubase 8, 10, and 10.5. I pretty much never have that happen with any other library. Maybe once in a blue moon. If it were just me, I'd think it was something I was doing or my system, but there have been a lot of people who've mentioned the same thing on VIC. Is there a potential fix for that with the way it's scripted or are we just out of luck? I love the sound so I'm going to continue reaching for it first regardless but thought I'd ask.


Same thoughts here. While the CB Core/Pro transitions need some tweaking at times, in a busy mix they sound great imo.


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## MichaelBarry (Jan 23, 2020)

I very much advise against using Polyphonic Legato. I personally never do because it leads to that very artificial sounding "organing." It is much better to just duplicate a track and enter a second pass with different CC 1 Values, 7 and note starts and ends. That seems to eliminate the organing, which immediately gives away that sample libraries are involved. If you want further realism you can give the duplicate tracks slightly different panning (-3 to + 3) or slightly different EQ especially in the mids and highs. etc.. but usually just the different cc1/7 value does it amazingly. 

I think its ok to improvise with Polyphonic legato but use that as a place holder and use monophonic for best results. But for me I really need to be riding faders to get what I consider a "keeper" of a pass/performance (so I am not willing to use my left hand on the piano keyboard). If I got the shape of the line feeling good and its "in the pocket" I will keep that even if its too quiet/loud and has wrong notes - those things are easily fixable. Drawing in CC values (cresc. dim etc..) really drives me nuts.

Also Polyphonic legato scripting is at best an approximator due to its nature. For example there has to be a "slop zone" as no musician will strike two chords at exactly 1 second (its always one note is behind or ahead .001 etc...). So the script has to wait to see what happens (it cannot read minds - ahh but wouldn't that be wonderful?) so there is a latency of around (20-30?ms) built in at the front to determine slop - that is why you are feeling latency I bet. Then also of course legato has an additional latency (if you quantize that places the legato on the grid - not the "new note" - then you are behind another 30 milliseconds really depending on the interval involved and the instrument. I remember when I went to USC we went to JNH's studio and he strongly advised against quantization of non percussion/synth instruments. I feel like this is especially true with legatos - I find sort of arranging a string sections's legatos in a manner that no one legato starts at exactly at the same time as another best approximates what happens in the real orchestra. Also if you learn how to play slightly in front of the beat (again stolen from JNH) you can do this live. For me to do this I really need to turn the click and off and sort of watch the grid marks (clicks suck.)

Further more on the scripting of Polyphonic Legato
If you go from chords of four notes to chords of 5 what does the script do - are you expecting it to double? If there is a large jump what does it do? An F# goes to a G and E - which note does it get etc..?

Anyway another rant but interesting stuff...


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## ScarletJerry (Jan 23, 2020)

Mike,

I just want to say that the $99 upgrade fee me be worth it for me just so I can get rid of that crappy 90s Retro interface. What the heck were you guys thinking? Ha Ha!


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## richardt4520 (Jan 23, 2020)

Thanks for the excellent advice, Michael!


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## mscp (Jan 23, 2020)

@ChrisSiuMusic - do you own all the Berlin Brass expansions or just the core library?


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## ChrisSiuMusic (Jan 23, 2020)

Phil81 said:


> @ChrisSiuMusic - do you own all the Berlin Brass expansions or just the core library?


I have the core library and the mutes expansion.


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## JohnBMears (Jan 23, 2020)

Because Sonore had the musicians seated in different locations than CineBrass Core/Pro, is it going to be problematic to use them in conjunction? i.e. 4-horn patch from Sonore, breaking into using 2 of the two-horn patches in Cinebrass?


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## Kadirally (Jan 24, 2020)

Just wanted to say that i think it's amazing that Cinesamples try to capture what made those 'older' scores so valuable as well as making those samples available to everybody - with CB Sonore

Using the original Jurassic Park recall sheets and talking with the old guard of brass players to create such a pretty software instrument is just cool to see.

While we witness most developers releasing epic/modern/hybrid/FFF-libraries nowadays (which is great too) it's just nice to see a genuine attempt at capturing the knowledge of how to play and orchestrate 'real' brass.

@MichaelBarry


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## Consona (Jan 24, 2020)

Kadirally said:


> Just wanted to say that i think it's amazing that Cinesamples try to capture what made those 'older' scores so valuable as well as making those samples available to everybody - with CB Sonore
> 
> Using the original Jurassic Park recall sheets and talking with the old guard of brass players to create such a pretty software instrument is just cool to see.
> 
> ...


Hm. I'd love to hear mock-ups featuring CineBrass, CSB and JXLB, playing the same stuff, made by one person good at producing mock-ups.
JXLB may be epic/modern/hybrid/FFF library, but the Star Wars mock-ups @GPlowman made were fricking stellar, dunno whether CB or CSB can produce such convincing Williams passages.


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## borisb2 (Apr 15, 2020)

just bought Sonore through that current NI sale. What a wonderful sound. Well done cinesamples!

Found a "bug" though: has it been flagged to cinesamples that the release-volume fader doesnt work on horns sustain and forte-piano? kind of annyoing because playing horn chords sounds very washy. With the trumpets the slider does fade off the release samples as supposed to but with the horn-patches that doesnt seem to work.


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## Consona (Jun 11, 2020)

MichaelBarry said:


> Guy (ps Hi!), you make a good point so much of sample developing is experience and trickery - it is not a straight forward process. There is new stuff going on in the legato script but it literally requires audio types we didn't even fathom yet in Cinebrass stuff.
> 
> I've never had a problem with Legato in Cinebrass
> I just made this last week for example:
> ...





richardt4520 said:


> I don't think the legato is bad at all. It just has to be adjusted like anything else. In Cinebrass and Cinewinds, I can hear crossfading in the legato if the legato is set too slow or the intensity is too high. The fix? Just adjust them until they're appropriate for the line/tempo. That's what the controls are for, right? haha
> 
> My question is, with the polyphonic legato, I tend to get a lot of stuck notes. This has happened on Windows 7 and 10, Cubase 8, 10, and 10.5. I pretty much never have that happen with any other library. Maybe once in a blue moon. If it were just me, I'd think it was something I was doing or my system, but there have been a lot of people who've mentioned the same thing on VIC. Is there a potential fix for that with the way it's scripted or are we just out of luck? I love the sound so I'm going to continue reaching for it first regardless but thought I'd ask.


With some speed/intensity tweaking, the legato can sound pretty good indeed!  I retract my previous comment about its unusability! 

Still, Michael, could you please implement the Auto Borrow function from 90s Retro Trumpets into CB Core and Pro, would be incredibly helpful to have some legato RRs for faster repeated passages, without it, they sound so robotic. Thanks for considering it!


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## VivianaSings (Jun 24, 2020)

ScarletJerry said:


> Mike,
> 
> I just want to say that the $99 upgrade fee me be worth it for me just so I can get rid of that crappy 90s Retro interface. What the heck were you guys thinking? Ha Ha!



Lol interesting. The interface is why I haven't upgraded. I absolutely love the kitsch look of 90s retro horns and get a kick out of it so I never upgraded.


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## Consona (Dec 2, 2020)

Consona said:


> With some speed/intensity tweaking, the legato can sound pretty good indeed!  I retract my previous comment about its unusability!
> 
> Still, Michael, could you please implement the Auto Borrow function from 90s Retro Trumpets into CB Core and Pro, would be incredibly helpful to have some legato RRs for faster repeated passages, without it, they sound so robotic. Thanks for considering it!


Lol, so from hating on CineBrass legato, it's now the only brass library I use even for fast legato lines. 

With 1/4 or 1/8 notes overlay and some velocity/CC work, it sounds surprisingly good considering the fact it's not sample modeling stuff.

@CineSamples would you consider updating the Auto Borrow function into CineBrass Core and Pro?


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